# Admirals Vs Yonko



## Sherlōck (Apr 14, 2020)

*Admirals *

Akainu
Aokiji
Kizaru
Fujitora
*Yonko*

Shanks
Laido
Big Meme
Black Beard

1)- Which group has more plot relevance?
2)- Which group has better portrayal?
3)- Which group wins in a team battle?


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## Ruse (Apr 14, 2020)

1) Yonko
2) Yonko 
3) Yonko

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## oiety (Apr 14, 2020)

1. Yonko. Shanks and Blackbeard tip the scale heavily.
2. In terms of strength, BB possessing the most dangerous dfs and BM and Kaido's durability hype gives it to the Yonko. Admirals have been embarrassed less, though.
3. Yonko.
Kaido>=BM>=Akainu~Shanks>BB>=Aokiji>Kizaru>Fujitora imo

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Beast (Apr 14, 2020)

1. Yonko thanks to Shanks and BB, unless Akainu turns out to be a D as well. 

2. About the same I think.

3. Yonko, BB is a bad match up.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

BB >= Shanks >= Akainu >= Aokiji >= Kizaru >= Kaidou >= Current-Mom >= Fujitora

In terms of Strength / Portrayal / Hype


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 14, 2020)

Clean sweep for the Yonkou.

These kinds of no-brainer threads should be closed.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## GucciBandana (Apr 14, 2020)

hard to say who has plot relevance, Yonko are currently the main Villain of the arc, but it's pretty clear that after this arc, just like the title Shichibukai, the title Yonko prob won't exist anymore. Admirals will survive later into the story, but we don't know if they will be a major villain like Yonkos are right now. I would say that Katakuri has more plot relevance than King, so I guess Yonko have more plot relevance than Admirals, if Admirals don't get a main villain arc.

portrayal wise roughly the same, Yonko slightly better hype, Admirals slightly better feats.

team battle, about equal, however I do think current Teach is the weakest top tier, even weaker than Fujitora, though he reaches PK tier eventually.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2020)

Yonko win because Big Mom and Kaido are stronger than Kizaru and Fujitora 

The rest cancel each other out


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## Ren. (Apr 14, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> *Admirals *
> 
> Akainu
> Aokiji
> ...


YONKO!


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## Beast (Apr 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yonko win because Big Mom and Kaido are stronger than Kizaru and Fujitora
> 
> The rest cancel each other out


Kaidou is stronger then Fuji but Kizaru is stronger then Bm.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 14, 2020)

1. Yonko
2. Admirals
3. Admirals

Can't imagine how 2 of the yonks will fight each other while 1 will plot some shit or rather run away till it settles and 1 goes to the garosei to talk to pull back the admirals and cry about BB's retraction from his team while the navy nukes the shit out of the rest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fel1x (Apr 14, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> *Admirals *
> 
> Akainu
> Aokiji
> ...


1) Shanks>BB>Kaido>Akainu>Aokiji>BM>Fujitora>Kizaru. So Yonko
2) each Yonko>each admiral. but BM's is another topic to discuss. but anyway, despite Oda's gags about her, she is still > admirals in terms of portrayal
3) Yonko low-diff

btw, is calling some characters like Laido or Meme admiral fans' inferiority complex in some kind? never seen Yonko set doing the same. we are pretty much confident in Yonko without gagging about admirals' names


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Kaidou is stronger then Fuji but Kizaru is stronger then Bm.



Possible but I think the overall duo of BM and Kaido are stronger than Kizaru/Fujitora


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Yonko win because Big Mom and Kaido are stronger than Kizaru and Fujitora
> 
> The rest cancel each other out


I have my doubts they are stronger then Kizaru. Kizaru seemed confident he could handle them; and he has Advanced CoA which is about to fuck Kaidou up; so idk. If they are stronger then Kizaru it’s not by much


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I have my doubts they are stronger then Kizaru. Kizaru seemed confident he could handle them; and he has Advanced CoA which is about to fuck Kaidou up; so idk. If they are stronger then Kizaru it’s not by much



I got him equal to Marco who is YC1 +

Reactions: Like 1


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## CrownedEagle (Apr 14, 2020)

The first two should be obvious, We all know in which group the title of "strongest" belongs, and we all know very well who will be Luffy's final antagonist (aka BB), we already have a former admiral as subordinate of a Yonkou,.. It pretty clear which one Oda favor in his manga.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I got him equal to Marco who is YC1 +


Why is he equal to Marco? 

Ether way P2 Marco is probably >= Kaidou as well. Phoenix >= Dragon. And Marco was already top YC1 in MF if he got stronger now he is likely Low-Yonko level like Kaidou


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## GucciBandana (Apr 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I got him equal to Marco who is YC1 +



Who's equal to Marco? Kizaru or Kaido?

Kizaru no sells sneak attack from Marco's father, then lasers him through the chest like it's nothing...


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## trance (Apr 14, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Meme



i dont call kaido "laido"

i actually like kaido

i call meme as such because she's an eyesore and needs to die...like a bad meme should


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## Dellinger (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> BB >= Shanks >= Akainu >= Aokiji >= Kizaru >= Kaidou >= Current-Mom >= Fujitora
> 
> In terms of Strength / Portrayal / Hype


What portrayal do all of these have over Kaido and Mom ? 

Are they the guys with the highest bounties ? No. Are they unkillable ? No. Are they the World's strongest creatures ? No. Did they one shot a FM level character ? No they didn't.

Like just stop posting. Jesus.


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## Lyren (Apr 14, 2020)

Yonko >>>>>>>>>>>>> foddermirals in every aspect.

Reactions: Like 9 | Disagree 1


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> What portrayal do all of these have over Kaido and Mom ?
> 
> Are they the guys with the highest bounties ? No. Are they unkillable ? No. Are they the World's strongest creatures ? No. Did they one shot a FM level character ? No they didn't..


Kaidou has a bunch of hype but in practice his track record is terrible.  He is introduced with tons of losses. The only Top Tiers he faced Oden (slapped him), Shanks (he cucked down to), BM she was weakened missing homies and still fought with him to a draw

Shanks actually fought duels (multiple)with another Top Tier (Mihawk) successfully; and clashed evenly with WB; and stopped Akainu attack causing Akainu and the Marines to cuck down to Shanks. It’s important to note that Mihawk > Oden (WSS and Black Blade Oden couldn’t achieve) and Old WB > Kaidou (both by feats and hype); Akainu and Kizaru also both thought they could take Kaidou, while they simply didn’t because they were stretched too thin and concerned about the unknown power of the Samurai/Wano.

Akainu fought WB competently; sure WB was handicapped; but WB > BM, who was handicapped and fought Kaidou to a draw so let’s not kid ourselves there. Akainu actually has a win in a Top Tier (Aokiji). And is being held off as future villain for Luffy therefore he should likely be >= Kaidou given every successive antagonist is a bigger threat then the former major antagonist Luffy defeats. He also has Advanced CoA and horrendously powerful DF so he can probably beat Kaidou, if Luffy can with advanced CoA. He also thought he and Kizaru could take Kaidou as previously mentioned 

Aokiji and likely Kizaru are close to Akainu; and Kizaru himself was confident he could take Kaidou. There cases are of course not as strong as the above characters, but Kaidou track record isn’t strong so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to be stronger or at least around Kaidou level.

I don’t think I even need to justify why Teach is going to be stronger then Kaidou; only the most absurd stans would argue he isn’t going to be stronger.

—

And to address the hype; it doesn’t mean much to me because a lot of it’s dubious in nature; in the same way that hype like Shanks being said to be unbeatable when angered is dubious in nature. So I don’t give it much credibility; but they all have absurd hype anyway.

And Luffy wasn’t even using the abilities that allowed him to beat a YC1 against Kaidou; so it’s more like he one shot a YC level individual, which yeah al of them can do that shit.


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## JustSumGuy (Apr 14, 2020)

1) Yonko thanks to Shanks and Blackbeard. But Akainu and possibly Aokiji are more relevant to the overall story than Kaido or Big Mom. 

2) Yonko have it but let’s not act like Oda doesn’t go out of his way to make the admirals look untouchable most of the time. 

3) Yonko high diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why is he equal to Marco?
> 
> Ether way P2 Marco is probably >= Kaidou as well. Phoenix >= Dragon. And Marco was already top YC1 in MF if he got stronger now he is likely Low-Yonko level like Kaidou



Marco was able to match them but Akainu and Aojiki were slated to be closer after they got stronger post Marine so since they were the ones who duked it out then to me Marco/Kizaru stayed about the same level I don’t think he can beat the Yonko but he’s strong enough to hold it down until someone stronger comes along so no doubt he’s a match for Kaido I don’t see him quite tipping the scale .


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## Dellinger (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Kaidou has a bunch of hype but in practice his track record is terrible.  He is introduced with tons of losses. The only Top Tiers he faced Oden (slapped him), Shanks (he cucked down to), BM she was weakened missing homies and still fought with him to a draw


Loses in the past don't matter. Oden pretty clearly said Kaido could grow stronger. Luffy has lost countless times and he will be stronger than anyone in the end. Garp said Roger was just lucky to survive multiple times.

As for the rest. Kaido one shot Oden which you blatantly ignore. We don't know what happened with Shanks but Kaido isn't a dumbass. he wanted to fight WB but going through another Yonko would just be a waste of time. You keep mentioning how Mom was weakened but always forget to mention that Kaido was fighting in base also ie he wasn't using his full strength. Wonder why.



> Shanks actually fought duels (multiple)with another Top Tier (Mihawk) successfully; and clashed evenly with WB; and stopped Akainu attack causing Akainu and the Marines to cuck down to Shanks. It’s important to note that Mihawk > Oden (WSS and Black Blade Oden couldn’t achieve) and Old WB > Kaidou (both by feats and hype); Akainu and Kizaru also both thought they could take Kaidou, while they simply didn’t because they were stretched too thin and concerned about the unknown power of the Samurai/Wano.



When Shanks was fighting Mihawk he wasn't a Yonko. So this point is irrelevant. Also Kaido and BM didn't the exact same thing Shanks and WB did so why do you even bring it up ? It's also important to note that Mihawk pretty clearly implied he is inferior to WB while WB treated Oden like he near damn equal hence why he was the only guy in his crew he called brother. 

Old WB also doesn't have better hype than Kaido. Kaido is the unkillable undisputed 1v1 winner. That's what the manga says and that's what an entire novel giving info on the Yonko says also. Supervised by Oda.

Also Akainu said he can't deal with the samurai. Kizaru didn't say he'd beat Kaido, why are you lying ?



> Akainu fought WB competently; sure WB was handicapped; but WB > BM, who was handicapped and fought Kaidou to a draw so let’s not kid ourselves there. Akainu actually has a win in a Top Tier (Aokiji). And is being held off as future villain for Luffy therefore he should likely be >= Kaidou given every successive antagonist is a bigger threat then the former major antagonist Luffy defeats. He also has Advanced CoA and horrendously powerful DF so he can probably beat Kaidou, if Luffy can with advanced CoA. He also thought he and Kizaru could take Kaidou as previously mentioned



Aokiji is an underling of the weakest Yonko. Same Yonko with 2 fruits who calls Kaido a monster. Also your point is mute since Kaido can be the strongest because he's going down by multiple adversaries. Also do you realize Kaido has been the main goal, the overarching antagonist of the entire post skip narrative ? An Admiral will never get that.



> Aokiji and likely Kizaru are close to Akainu; and Kizaru himself was confident he could take Kaidou. There cases are of course not as strong as the above characters, but Kaidou track record isn’t strong so I’m willing to give them the benefit of the doubt to be stronger or at least around Kaidou level.


Ok let's do this again


This is manga canon which you blatantly ignore. Also Doflamingo who didn;t give a shit about admirals, easily broke out of Aokiji's attack and even said he would kill Fujitora while casually attacking him, the same guy went pale at the mere thought of Kaido coming at him. But of course you wouldn't mention that.



> I don’t think I even need to justify why Teach is going to be stronger then Kaidou; only the most absurd stans would argue he isn’t going to be stronger.


Teach will end up stronger. he isn't now, he is still growing. Teach again called Kaido a monster. You know the only guy in history with 2 fruits, go ahead and calls Kaido a monster. I wonder why.
—



> And to address the hype; it doesn’t mean much to me because a lot of it’s dubious in nature; in the same way that hype like Shanks being said to be unbeatable when angered is dubious in nature. So I don’t give it much credibility; but they all have absurd hype anyway.


You don't adress shit here, what you are basically doing is ignore manga facts and come up with ridiculous shit on your own. Basically no one should be replying to you since you just claimed that Marco is stronger than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Marco was able to match them but Akainu and Aojiki were slated to be closer after they got stronger post Marine so since they were the ones who duked it out then to me Marco/Kizaru stayed about the same level I don’t think he can beat the Yonko but he’s strong enough to hold it down until someone stronger comes along so no doubt he’s a match for Kaido I don’t see him quite tipping the scale .


When we’re Akainu and Aokiji stated to get stronger Post MF? I mean they definitely could have but I don’t remember a statement. 

Kizaru seemed pretty confident he could beat a Yonko.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2020)

1) Admirals
2) Admirals
3) Admirals

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gianfi (Apr 14, 2020)

Yonko in all 3.

1- The Yonko are Emperors, a Yonko will be Luffy's final villain (BB), a Yonko was Luffy's main inspiration (Shanks), 2 Yonko were declared the strongest on the world (WB and then Kaido), 3 Yonko were chosen by Luffy as milestones to beat in order to become PK (BM, Kaido and BB).


2- The 4 Yonko, despite being hostile towards each other, are strong enough to not be overwhelmed by the Marines. While admirals were stalemated by FM and YC, two Yonko (BM and Kaido) made short work of a FM and a YC2 (Luffy and Queen) without even trying that much. A Yonko (Shanks) stopped the war, right when the Marines were winning and could have annihilated the remaining WB pirates. WB, despite being sick and tired, defeated Akainu. BM and Kaido's alliance is feared by sengoku and could be unstoppable. Jack didn't give a single damn about facing Fujitora and Sengoku, while Queen and even Luffy, who aren't exaclty some cowards, screamed in fear at the sight of BM.


3- Of course, after all I've said above, Yonko win decisively. Every single one of them (except BB who is still growing) has better hype than them. Furthermore, BM's and Kaido's feats trump on everything the Admirals displayed during Marineford. While Aokiji was stalemated by Jozu, Fujitora injured by Sabo, Marco and Vista stalemating Akainu, Kaido just needed one named attack to oneshot Luffy, and BM 2 random hakiless punches to down Queen. Shanks's mere presence prevented Akainu from pursuing WB pirates, despite Akainu being a believer of total justice. Jack didn't think twice about attacking Fujitore and Sengoku, and he still escaped after sinking marine ships. Despite this, BM's presence on the island is a source of panic for Kaido himself, and for both Queen and Luffy. BB may be the weakest link since he is the newest addition, but he still defeated Marco, and then grew more powerful after that. I have no doubt he would at least give any admiral a run for his money, if not outright defeating them


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 14, 2020)

1. Yonkou of course.

2. Yonkou of course.

3. Yonkou are stronger on average but one could argue the admirals would work together as a team as most of them are logias and they have similar training back grounds. So that would give them a advantage.


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Loses in the past don't matter. Oden pretty clearly said Kaido could grow stronger. Luffy has lost countless times and he will be stronger than anyone in the end. Garp said Roger was just lucky to survive multiple times.
> 
> As for the rest. Kaido one shot Oden which you blatantly ignore. We don't know what happened with Shanks but Kaido isn't a dumbass. he wanted to fight WB but going through another Yonko would just be a waste of time. You keep mentioning how Mom was weakened but always forget to mention that Kaido was fighting in base also ie he wasn't using his full strength. Wonder why.
> 
> ...


1- Kaidou having the potential to get stronger doesn’t mean he did get ‘significantly’ stronger. Right now it seems heavily implied Emma can still injure Kaidou the same as back then; so I don’t see any signs of significant improvement 

2- I ignore Kaidou “one shotting” Oden because he did so with outside help; it’s pointless to this discussion; where he doesn’t get outside. 

3- We do know what happened with Shanks Kaidou backed down. The reason for him backing down you can say isn’t entirely clear but it’s not a good mark on his record ether way

4- Where was it stated that Kaidou only used his Base form when fighting Mom; I’m absolutely certain that’s your own head canon 

5- Shanks fighting Miahawk before he became a Yonko; is more impressive not less 

6- Kaidou was shown in a similar equal clash with BM; who is weaker then WB; who Shanks was shown in an equal clash with; that is correct

7- WB never treated Oden as a brother; not equal in strength. Oden got slapped by Roger; who WB fought equally. 

8- Old WB WSM > Kaidou. WSP > Kaidou. Old WB power to End the World > Kaidou. Old WB bounty > Kaidou. Etc... Kaidou being considered 1v1 winner by some unknown people after WB died is in no way better then this.

9- Yes Kizaru does believe he can take Kaidou or Meme


10. Trying to use Aokiji being an underling of a villain that will obviously exceed Kaidou by far as a means to underrate his strength; is not worth addressing

11. Doflamingo thought he could handle the admirals since he had some level of immunity as a Warlord and the secrets he has on the government not strictly due to strength. Admirals clearly low diff DD if serious; anyone whose being honest knows that 

12- The thread is taking about Teach potential....

13- It’s a manga fact that people say he is 1V1 champ; but that doesn’t make it a fact that he is. People also say Luffy after WCI is 5th Yonko  when he clearly isn’t. So let’s not pretend that Fame and Titles can’t be misleading or false in One Piece. 

14. If no one should reply then don’t. But Marco was likely the strongest YC1; and Kaidou is likely the weakest Yonko; Marco reaching roughly Kaidou level after improving over the TS makes sense


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Kaidou having the potential to get stronger doesn’t mean he did get ‘significantly’ stronger. Right now it seems heavily implied Emma can still injure Kaidou the same as back then; so I don’t see any signs of significant improvement
> 
> 2- I ignore Kaidou “one shotting” Oden because he did so with outside help; it’s pointless to this discussion; where he doesn’t get outside.
> 
> ...



Manga: Kaidou is the Worlds Strongest Creature, can't be killed, and 1v1 King.

Oda SBS: Kaidou is the WSC

Ace Novel: Kaidou is the Worlds Strongest Creature and unstoppable above even White-beard.

Black Beard: Kaidou is a monster. 

Oden: I am in my prime if i can't stop Kaidou only the reincarnation of Jesus(Joyboy) can do it. 

World Government: Highest Current Bounty of a Pirate, became a Yonkou be sheer strength.

Turrin: Kaidou is likely the weakest Yonkou 

Thats like saying before the final war arc in naruto that Hashirama was probably the weakest Hokage. Obviously during the war he got feats that strictly prove he was the strongest(Before naruto) but even before that thinking he was the weakest or even second weakest kage would of been silly.


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> When we’re Akainu and Aokiji stated to get stronger Post MF? I mean they definitely could have but I don’t remember a statement.
> 
> Kizaru seemed pretty confident he could beat a Yonko.



Akainu was the strongest and Aokiji was the one to fight him almost evenly to become Fleet Admiral not Kizaru and that happened off screen after Marine


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 14, 2020)

Mihawk and Akainu > Kaidoh

stay woke

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 14, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Manga: Kaidou is the Worlds Strongest Creature, can't be killed, and 1v1 King.
> 
> Oda SBS: Kaidou is the WSC
> 
> ...





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Manga: Kaidou is the Worlds Strongest Creature, can't be killed, and 1v1 King.
> 
> Oda SBS: Kaidou is the WSC
> 
> ...


That’s because the source here is just the general titles and reputation Kaidou has. To compare this to Naruto; it’s like how Ebisu said only a Sannin can beat a Sannin; or Kisame said Itachi is nothing in comparison to a Sannin based on rep. Shits meaningless until backed up, which Kaidou hasn’t even come close to doing. I mean fuck man Enel was called a God; does that mean he’s > Kaidou, whose only creature and not a God. WB was literally called WSP/WSM; and now your saying Oda is back peddling that and WSC > WSP/WSM; in the same novel Shanks is called unstoppable when he’s mad; it’s all bullshit


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 14, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That’s because the source here is just the general titles and reputation Kaidou has. To compare this to Naruto; it’s like how Ebisu said only a Sannin can beat a Sannin; or Kisame said Itachi is nothing in comparison to a Sannin based on rep. Shits meaningless until backed up, which Kaidou hasn’t even come close to doing. I mean fuck man Enel was called a God; does that mean he’s > Kaidou, whose only creature and not a God. WB was literally called WSP/WSM; and now your saying Oda is back peddling that and WSC > WSP/WSM; in the same novel Shanks is called unstoppable when he’s mad; it’s all bullshit



I agree that Kaidous hype at least in terms of being the WSC is not as concrete as it could be and that oda has also purposely left it open with it being more of a rumor then official title, but in regards to being the weakest yonkou though no I find that extremely unlikely.

Imo hype should be trusted unless the author gives me reasons not to trust them. Some manga series you can just tell where fake hype and BS is with charcters as the author can't properly write. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about some new villain comes along and is hyped as shit turns out to be a joke or just disappointing in terms of power.

I don't have that inclination with one piece. The series has many big issues but as far as hype is concerned and oda delivering on the power of characters I think he has been pretty consistent. So for oda to throw all this hype on kaidou when the manga is relatively close to ending and then turn around and go haha I was just kidding. Kaidou is trash you guys thought he was strong lmao. In hindsight yea kaidou is probably not the WSC with Im-sama lurking around but I think he is pretty fucking close to it.

Basically I just don't think oda is that kind of author to troll us as imo its just shit writing. Just like the examples you gave from naruto. Ain't nobody believed that only a Sannin can beat a sannin garbage(trolls aside that is). Just trash writing which i know is a very subjective thing but thats just my feelings on it. If a character gets hyped up and in my mind i instantly dismiss it as fake hype IE saying they can't beat Jiraiya with backup, Sannin bull crap. That tells me the author is fucking something up. Maybe thats just me though haha

Sorry for the rant XD

Reactions: Like 1


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## GucciBandana (Apr 15, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Akainu was the strongest and Aokiji was the one to fight him almost evenly to become Fleet Admiral not Kizaru and that happened off screen after Marine



Kizaru has better feats and portray than Aokiji consistently.
It's pretty obvious that almost all top tiers will take roughly 10 days to decide who's stronger, Kaido fought Big Mom for nearly 2 days and it's a tie, despite Kaido's WSC title and Big Mom having trouble with Jinbei.
Aokiji was def the weakest Admiral at MF, only Admiral not doing concrete damage on WB, and only Admiral being hurt by a commander.


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## MO (Apr 15, 2020)

1) Big Mom
2) Big Mom
3) Big Mom soloes

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I agree that Kaidous hype at least in terms of being the WSC is not as concrete as it could be and that oda has also purposely left it open with it being more of a rumor then official title, but in regards to being the weakest yonkou though no I find that extremely unlikely.
> 
> Imo hype should be trusted unless the author gives me reasons not to trust them. Some manga series you can just tell where fake hype and BS is with charcters as the author can't properly write. I'm sure you know what I'm talking about some new villain comes along and is hyped as shit turns out to be a joke or just disappointing in terms of power.
> 
> ...


The issue for me is that Oda has given me a-lot of reason to doubt Kaidou’s hype.

Oda has gone out of his way to not support Kaidou hype. I mean if he wants Kaidou to be that strong how hard is it to have it stated Kaidou beat BM or WB or Shanks before; or even an Admiral. In-fact Oda had an ideal scenario where’s he could have had Kaidou beat BM; but instead he had it end in a draw (even with BM having a handicap without all of her homies). Literally Kaidou has zero confirmed wins on Top Tiers, yet he’s suppose to be the strongest on. In contrast Oda has only talked about and shown his losses like him getting slapped around by Oden; and sure Kaidou May have gotten stronger since facing Oden, but Oden slapping him around isn’t helping substantial his hype and nether is him winning with a cheap trick. I literally could see the story outright stating that people believe Kaidou is 1v1 champ due to beating Oden and then becoming stronger; except he didn’t even beat Oden 1v1.

Beyond that Oda having Kaidou be thee first Yonko that Luffy is going to fight and defeat bodes very poorly for him being the Strongest Top Tier, when this is far from the final arc. It’s Kaidou is in the Albast Crocodile spot; as the first Warlord Luffy faced. Yet we’re suppose to believe he’s going to be the strongest....unlike AB Crocodile who was the weakest Warlord by far?

Basically we got nothing to substantiate Kaidou hype and were about to enter the final battle of Wano; where The strongest characters Kaidou is up against are current Luffy, Kidd, Law, and Zoro; and he even has another Yonko as backup and is still going to loose to them....

Kaidou best feat seems like it’s going to be one-shorting Luffy who wasn’t even using the powers that made him YC1 like Advanced CoO and Snakeman, due to being too angry to contain himself; so basically Kaidou best feat is gong to be easily defeating a YC level enemy; which is basically the bare minimum of Yonko level; and then maybe at the end of the arc pushing an entry Yonko level like Luffy to extreme diff and fighting some YC and YC1 level characters along the way; then loosing; doesn’t seem like he’s earning that hype to me.

—-

You can’t have the stance that “I just don't think oda is that kind of author to troll us as imo its just shit writing.” While at the same time saying that WSC > WSP/WSM. Oda clearly spent P1 hyping Old WB up as the strongest character in the verse, so if now all of sudden he’s going to be like “gotcha” WSP/WSM titles really refer to how great of a man WB was or how powerful he was in the sun total of his forces / resources; and WSC is actually the WS character; then Oda clearly is the kind of author to throw around false hype and troll fans; and there is no reason for me to take this WSC shit seriously at that point only for Oda to later come out and be like Gotcha; WSC actually refers to Non Humans; and Pissed of Shanks is really Worlds Strongest Fighter; only for him to be like gotcha, IMU is Word Strongest, he just isn’t a fighter; and so on.


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## Irene (Apr 15, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> What portrayal do all of these have over Kaido and Mom ?
> 
> Are they the guys with the highest bounties ? No. Are they unkillable ? No. Are they the World's strongest creatures ? No. Did they one shot a FM level character ? No they didn't.
> 
> Like just stop posting. Jesus.


if not for cheap tricks he would have been dead rn too much for his WSC title ... too much for always bet on him in a fight


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## Fel1x (Apr 15, 2020)

Nana said:


> if not for cheap tricks he would have been dead rn too much for his WSC title ... too much for always bet on him in a fight


it wasn't his cheap tricks. its how his people do. sometimes they got punished for that


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## Irene (Apr 15, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> it wasn't his cheap tricks. its how his people do. sometimes they got punished for that


Him or his ppl it doesn't matter he couldn't win over Oden in the end
His reputation about how strong he is seems much less believable now

Yonko hype keep dying , First Linlin now Kaido ..
Their portrayal isn't the best 
Admirals have better portraying for now


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## Fel1x (Apr 15, 2020)

Nana said:


> Him or his ppl it doesn't matter he couldn't win over Odenin the end
> His reputation about how strong he is seems much less believable now
> 
> Yonko hype keep dying , First Linlin now Kaido ..


couldn't win? he oneshotted him. hostage or not it would still be from low to mid diff for Kaido


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2020)

Oda basically throws at our face multiple times that Kaido is the strongest, he makes Kaido one-shot a FM level character ( something unprecedented in the manga ), he makes Doflamingo put the whole WG after his ass instead of annoying Kaido and many, many others. 
But he is definitely the weakest yonko and possibly weaker than Marco because he got cut by Oden 20 something years ago.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Oda basically throws at our face multiple times that Kaido is the strongest, he makes Kaido one-shot a FM level character ( something unprecedented in the manga ), he makes Doflamingo put the whole WG after his ass instead of annoying Kaido and many, many others.
> But he is definitely the weakest yonko and possibly weaker than Marco because he got cut by Oden 20 something years ago.


Oda threw it in our face that Enel was a God; I guess Enel > Roger/Kaidou/WB, right?

Luffy being neg diff’d by the main antagonist is nothing new; you act as if this exact same scene of Luffy being unable to do shit to damage Lucci and Corodile; and them owning him didn’t happen before. Luffy didn’t even use the skills that made him YC1 in the first place; so he was more YC level if were being honest. So wow Kaidou low diff’d a YC, man that’s some crazy shit non of the other Top Tiers can do right?

Doflamingo being more afraid from Kaidou who he didn’t have some protection form and is crazy then the WG which he did; no way, that absurd. Kaidou must be the Stronkest

Kaidou is the weakest Yonko (or BM) because Luffy is beating his ass first; same way AB crocodile was then weakest Warlord. He isn’t the strongest because he has nothing to support that hype; not even a single win against another Top tier we can point too.


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## Gianfi (Apr 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Oda threw it in our face that Enel was a God; I guess Enel > Roger/Kaidou/WB, right?
> 
> Luffy being neg diff’d by the main antagonist is nothing new; you act as if this exact same scene of Luffy being unable to do shit to damage Lucci and Corodile; and them owning him didn’t happen before. Luffy didn’t even use the skills that made him YC1 in the first place; so he was more YC level if were being honest. So wow Kaidou low diff’d a YC, man that’s some crazy shit non of the other Top Tiers can do right?
> 
> ...


Come on time to tell us... what have you been smoking during the quarantine?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Oda threw it in our face that Enel was a God; I guess Enel > Roger/Kaidou/WB, right?
> 
> Luffy being neg diff’d by the main antagonist is nothing new; you act as if this exact same scene of Luffy being unable to do shit to damage Lucci and Corodile; and them owning him didn’t happen before. Luffy didn’t even use the skills that made him YC1 in the first place; so he was more YC level if were being honest. So wow Kaidou low diff’d a YC, man that’s some crazy shit non of the other Top Tiers can do right?
> 
> ...



Oda's SBS is more than enough evidence Turrin. Your desperate attempts to downplay Kaido are in vain. Kaido is the WSC for a reason. Luffy has never gone completely blank in a single shot iirc and plus, now he is FM level.
Doflamingo chose the admirals, not Kaido. The admirals came after him, not kaido.
As for the last audacity, well WB fell before Kaido did he not ? Oden died before Arlong, did he not ? Your logic is not in a way or another. It simply isn't. Your opinion is basically based on nothing, aside from cronology.
You also state that Kaido has no win over another top tier. How do you know that ?
Did you see Roger beat a top tier in a 1v1 ? Or Garp? Or Sengoku? Or Shanks ( as a yonko ) ?
Stop being biased. Also, when everybody tells a man he is drunk, then he most likely is, so you should probably go to sleep.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Oda's SBS is more than enough evidence Turrin. Your desperate attempts to downplay Kaido are in vain. Kaido is the WSC for a reason. Luffy has never gone completely blank in a single shot iirc and plus, now he is FM level.
> Doflamingo chose the admirals, not Kaido. The admirals came after him, not kaido.
> As for the last audacity, well WB fell before Kaido did he not ? Oden died before Arlong, did he not ? Your logic is not in a way or another. It simply isn't. Your opinion is basically based on nothing, aside from cronology.
> You also state that Kaido has no win over another top tier. How do you know that ?
> ...


- Oda making a joke in the SBS is literally no evidence whatsoever....

- Lucci and Crocodile one-shot Luffy

- Luffy didn’t use Advanced CoO the skill that actually made him FM level against Kaidou

- Doflamingo choose the side he has leverage over

- It’s not a matter of simply chronology; it’s a matter of the villains Luffy faces and defeats are always weaker / lesser threats then successive villains. AB Corocodile the first Warlord Luffy faced and defeated was the weakest. Gee I wonder how the first Yonko Luffy faces and defeats is going to stack up next to Yonko he faces in successive arcs.



Gianfi said:


> Come one time to tell us... what have you been smoking during the quarantine?


I’ve been smoking dat heady one piece.

What have you been smoking 2 piece?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - Oda making a joke in the SBS is literally no evidence whatsoever....
> 
> - Lucci and Crocodile one-shot Luffy
> 
> ...


 
that was no joke, it was literally Oda showing Kaido superiority over Akainu, nothing more, nothing less.
Crocodile was a logia, Luffy could not hit him and still he wasn't one shotted.
Against Lucci, Luffy was conscious and well if you are referring to the fight in the room.
No proof he did not use his advanced CoO and no proof it would be enough against Kaido's speed.
Next, again, his leverage did not help him. Fujitora still acted against him. what you are saying helps my point even more, given the fact that he considered his leverage to be insufficient against Kaido.
Again, stop judging everything by chronology because it makes you look silly. You are also silly by believing Luffy will take on Kaido on his own.



Gianfi said:


> Come one time to tell us... what have you been smoking during the quarantine?


It's some tough sh*t he has. I'd bet on some colombian stuff.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

@Duhul10 

I also forgot to answer this part of your post, which I find important to the discussion:

“You also state that Kaido has no win over another top tier. How do you know that ?
Did you see Roger beat a top tier in a 1v1 ? Or Garp? Or Sengoku? Or Shanks ( as a yonko ) ?“

The difference is these characters have actual accomplishments that support their titles. 

Roger beat Rocks and Conquered the Sea reaching the final Island; and while Sick still clashed evenly with WSM WB in his Prime; slapped Oden, and had men even when Old and Retired are living legends that can fight Admirals, working for him. This all supports his title as PK.

Garp stood against Rocks and won; and fought against Roger many times. This supports his titles as Hero of the Marines.

And so on.

If we are suppose to take Kaidou WSC title to mean he is currently the Strongest Character; and him being the 1v1 King seriously. Oda has given Kaidou zero accomplishments to support these titles. He’s the 1v1 King but hasn’t been stated or shown to beat 1 Top Tier on panel, let alone the ones readers assume are likely the strongest like Akainu, Shanks, Dragon, etc... actually instead when he fights BM (nerfed BM) he doesn’t win, when he fights Oden he looses, and Kizaru/Akainu think they can take him. Pointing to him low-diffing Luffy (who didn’t even use his strongest abilities) as justification for him being the “Strongest Character” isn’t even close, it just isn’t. 


So where the hell are Kaidou actual accomplishments to back his shit up. If he actually turns out to be World Strongest Character he is poorly written as shit and Oda really fucked up delivering on that hype to fans.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> that was no joke, it was literally Oda showing Kaido superiority over Akainu, nothing more, nothing less.
> Crocodile was a logia, Luffy could not hit him and still he wasn't one shotted.
> Against Lucci, Luffy was conscious and well if you are referring to the fight in the room.
> No proof he did not use his advanced CoO and no proof it would be enough against Kaido's speed.
> ...


-  Oda say Moms are > Kaidou. In that same SBS. So if I take this seriously that means every Mom in One Piece kicks Kaidou shit in?

- He was one shot by Crocodile hook; Luffy was conscious after several chapters passed after taking Lucci hit; if he was conscious right away he would have ran back there to fight Lucci again 

- It’s outright stated you can’t use CoO when pissed off by Katakuri; lol no proof.

- Doflamingo didn’t know Fujitora was going to go against WG: just stop

- I’m silly for looking at how things have always historically played out in one piece.....


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @Duhul10
> 
> I also forgot to answer this part of your post, which I find important to the discussion:
> 
> ...


He is confirmed to be stronger than the bolded. He was far from his prime when he fought Oden. BM is a monster and definitely top 5 current strongest characters. BM also called him a monster and so did Blackbeard.
Good, so you admitted those I've listed beat no top tier on panel, that's a nice start.



Turrin said:


> -  Oda say Moms are > Kaidou. In that same SBS. So if I take this seriously that means every Mom in One Piece kicks Kaidou shit in?
> 
> - He was one shot by Crocodile hook; Luffy was conscious after several chapters passed after taking Lucci hit; if he was conscious right away he would have ran back there to fight Lucci again
> 
> ...



Ok, so you ignore the comparison between Kaido and Akainu. Good.
mention the chapters you are talking about because Crocodile fought Luffy many times. Also show the proof for the Lucci part. Not that these would matter, It doesn't really matter that someone one shotted fodder Luffy, what matters is when someone does what nobody else did.
CoO meant shit, Luffy couldn't react physically, CoO or not. Also, he wasn't angry in the panel before getting hit. He was surprised.
Dude, again Doflamingo considered that his status as a shicibukai and his ties in the WG were not enough to keep Kaido away.
You've got no clue bro. Sorry to say it. The debate ended when Oda said it himself. I am only debating you now for a good laugh.


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## Turrin (Apr 15, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Ok, so you ignore the comparison between Kaido and Akainu. Good.
> mention the chapters you are talking about because Crocodile fought Luffy many times. Also show the proof for the Lucci part. Not that these would matter, It doesn't really matter that someone one shotted fodder Luffy, what matters is when someone does what nobody else did.
> CoO meant shit, Luffy couldn't react physically, CoO or not. Also, he wasn't angry in the panel before getting hit. He was surprised.
> Dude, again Doflamingo considered that his status as a shicibukai and his ties in the WG were not enough to keep Kaido away.
> You've got no clue bro. Sorry to say it. The debate ended when Oda said it himself. I am only debating you now for a good laugh.


- Yes just like I, ignore the comparison between Kaidou and Odas Mom. It’s a joke dude, let go...

- Dude Luffy just attacks Croc a bunch; it does nothing, and then the moment Croc get serious he put a hook through Luffy. And the Lucci battle is legit the same thing as what Happened with Kaidou; beat for beat.

Luffy attacking Lucci while it does nothing:

*Spoiler*: __ 







Lucci then gets serious and one shots:

And it’s not something new it’s standard one piece

- Saying he couldn’t react; while point of CoO is to increase reactions; saying CoO  wouldn’t matter, lol really dude

- Katakuri couldn’t suddenly switch from being pissed off, to immediately using CoO when surprised by Luffy attacks; it took him time to regain his composure. So no that argument is weak

- Yes it wasn’t enough to keep Kaidou away; but it was enough to give him some leverage against WG; hence why he feared Kaidou more. Laid out is the insane drunk dude whose going to kill you; WG are politicians that can be reasoned with. Gee wonder who I’d fear more.

- Throwing around insults just shows your loosing the debate



Duhul10 said:


> He is confirmed to be stronger than the bolded. He was far from his prime when he fought Oden. BM is a monster and definitely top 5 current strongest characters. BM also called him a monster and so did Blackbeard.
> G.


Dude I didn’t ask you for excuses I asked you for examples of what accomplishments he has that support his titles; namely as the 1v1 King.

And no one else needs any accomplishments of 1v1 combat as their title isn’t the fucking 1v1 King lol. This is what I keep saying Kaidou doesn’t have dick to support his titles the way the others do. He only has anti 1v1 feats like against Oden and BM

It’s like saying this dude is the Greatest Boxer in the world and his fight record against Pro Boxers is 1 Loss  and 1 Draw against Pro Boxer who wasn’t even in the best condition. You must know this is shit right dude


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## Duhul10 (Apr 15, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - Yes just like I, ignore the comparison between Kaidou and Odas Mom. It’s a joke dude, let go...
> 
> - Dude Luffy just attacks Croc a bunch; it does nothing, and then the moment Croc get serious he put a hook through Luffy. And the Lucci battle is legit the same thing as what Happened with Kaidou; beat for beat.
> 
> ...



What insult. Telling you that you have no clue is not an insult. It's just something you should think about. This is no debate. This is me trying to convince you rain comes from the clouds, not from the sun.
Again, ignoring the Kaido/Akainu part. Good to know. Lost the ''debate'' here already.
But for the sake of it, you get this reply and then I won't reply, not today at least. I need rest from trying to convince someone that snow is white and not black.
So no proof he could have reacted to Kaido or that he was angry at the time.
You do know that you've shown me pictures of Luffy not going blank and that was Lucci's final form. Kaido one shot Luffy after a hangover and in base.



Turrin said:


> Dude I didn’t ask you for excuses I asked you for examples of what accomplishments he has that support his titles; namely as the 1v1 King.
> 
> And no one else needs any accomplishments of 1v1 combat as their title isn’t the fucking 1v1 King lol. This is what I keep saying Kaidou doesn’t have dick to support his titles the way the others do. He only has anti 1v1 feats like against Oden and BM
> 
> It’s like saying this dude is the Greatest Boxer in the world and his fight record against Pro Boxers is 1 Loss  and 1 Draw against Pro Boxer who wasn’t even in the best condition. You must know this is shit right dude


So you do not believe the author because he did not show you Kaido's fights when he literally throws the facts at your face. Kaido did not even show his final form. Dude, do not bother to answer.  Bother someone else with this dellusion.


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## Hardcore (Apr 15, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Manga: Kaidou is the Worlds Strongest Creature, can't be killed, and 1v1 King.
> 
> Oda SBS: Kaidou is the WSC
> 
> ...



pretty much

don't see why prime oden harming him is supposed to undermine his strength

and we also know that kaido and BM got much stronger when the crew got separated around that time


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 15, 2020)

1 vs 1 matchups can be argued and depend on a lot of factors, but everyone in their right state of mind cannot deny them being of equal level. Some Yonko beat some Admirals, some Admirals beat some Yonko.

Yonko fans wanted to leach off of WB's portrayal for years, not acknowledging that WB was placed above everyone.

Simultaneously they wanted to make Garp the exception among the marines and not allow for his portrayal to slip over to the Admirals.
Then they wanted to leach off of Kaido's supposed hype. The problem is, Kaido's hype is shaky. Oda on his own accord chose to differentiate between regular hearsay and actual titles. Nowhere in the canon material has Kaido been referred to as the actual WSC, there are always nuances being made to sway away from it.

Notice in the above panels how it's hearsay and a rumor, the same type of rumor like Ruffy being a 25-foot-tall monster

Moreover, there are clues laid out that Kaido in fact might not be even human, and thus his supposed title should have no bearing on humans.

In addition, Kaido, in canon material, has only been referred to as the 'King of Beast', on multiple instances, whilst never referred to as the WSC

Now, I'll present a direct comparison with both Mihawk and Whitebeard. I won't elaborate here, because I've written everything in the panels themselves.

The quotation marks appear in the raw Japanese as well



And no that  did not confirm anything. That is the official Viz translation. Even though they are similar, there are small nuances that make it different, such as 'even Kaido' not appearing. Moreover, Oda says world's strongest creature, not living being. In addition, he leaves no doubts to a mother actually being the WSC. He highlights it by saying she is stronger than Kaido, the supposed WSC, and she is thus the actual WSC. There's no room to debate about anything concerning the mother, as opposed to Kaido.
Oda, on his own accord went out of his way to make a distinction.

Now let's talk more about betting on him in a 1 vs 1.

Kaido and Linlin haven't seen each other in decades.

WB hasn't heard Shanks' name in years implying that Shanks didn't fight any remarkable foe after Mihawk: not Kaido, not Linlin and of course not Whitebeard.

Now for WB.

While it is true that Whitebeard possesses a magnanimous attitude, there is one thing he holds on a higher pedestal than that, and that's his crew and their lives. He was ready to wage war against the entire world in order to get back one of his crew members.

The reputation surrounding the WBP is that if you mess with one of their own you pay for it. Anyone who lays a hand on one of their own should be prepared to face consequences.

*Spoiler*: __ 








The only exemption from this, that we know of, was when Ace first tried to pursue Teach. Key word here being pursue.

however from the supposed implications of Kaido challenging the other Yonko, it appears that he goes after them in order to do so, not the other way around. Therefore, Kaido would have to seek out WB, completely opposite to what Ace did with Teach. Had Teach waltzed into WB's ship he wasn't going to leave that place alive, as it is later confirmed in MF and during the meeting between WB and Shanks.

When Shanks and WB met, WB stated his crew calls for vengeance and that Teach needs to pay for what he had done

In MF WB stated he will avenge Thatch and that Teach will pay with his life, even Teach himself was afraid of dying to WB

Now you might be wondering why I brought all of this up. It's to preemptively stop the WB and Kaido were crew members thing. It's widely known that pirates in the Rocks group vehemently disliked each other, and were killing one another constantly

there wasn't a bond between them like between other crews. Moreover, Kaido was merely an  meaning he was very young and had spent significantly less time with WB, not to mention things point to bad relationships between the crew, than BB who had served under

The point I am making with this is that WB was ready to kill Teach, someone he called son, someone who had spent decades with him, to avenge a fallen comrade and crew member, as illustrated above.

Kaido is not only the one who killed the man WB himself called his little brother

but also the man who took over his country. We also know that WB is protective of his friends' countries, as he protected FI as a favour to his friend Neptune

From what's established about WB, him letting Kaido waltz onto his ship would have to result in Kaido's death. Therefore, logically playing out that situation, from what we know of Whitebeard and how he treats those close to him, going to such lengths as to battle the entire Navy in order to rescue one of his own, it would defy the established behaviour if WB just let Kaido go after beating him.

Even if we were to say that he fought WB, it would result in his losses, thus not helping him with the people say you should bet on Kaido.

I wouldn't be surprised if the rumour about Kaido started when he defeated Oden, without people knowing he used a cheap shot and underhanded tactics, as Oden was hailed as very strong, even had a bounty, and him taking over Wano, hailed as one of the strongest nations in the world, so much that the current FA of the Navy was more worried about the forces in Wano, rather than two of the Yonko when Kizaru offered himself to go there.

Kizaru was only stopped by Akainu due to the unknown military force in Wano. I stress again Wano, meaning Kizaru was gonna go to Wano, not somewhere along the way but Wano. The rumour was made more believable when the people saw Kaido beating people like the SN, and adding them to their crew. Whilst the SN are far away from crème de la crème of OP world, compared to the general populace of the OP world they are pretty strong. Kaido is the easiest Yonko to get to. He himself seeks challenges. Compare that to people trying to invade WCI and having to fight the commanders

Shanks who travels often and his whereabouts are hard to find. People would see Kaido beating strong people, strong as in stronger than the general populace, but nowhere near as strong as top tiers in OP, and thus start the rumor like that.

There's no point in mentioning them in the same breath if one side eclipses the other vastly. Chinjao who has encountered , etc, puts them together

He puts them in the same breath.

The MC of the manga himself puts them as equal obstacles on his way to reaching his dream

If one group eclipsed the other vastly, there is no point in mentioning them together. If Yonko>>Admirals, beating one Yonko would henceforth mean that you can beat any Admiral already. If Admirals>>Yonko, beating one Admiral would thus mean that you can beat any Yonko already.

In the end, individual matchups can of course be swayed in any direction, due to a multitude of factors. That's up for discussion. Yonko ≈ Admirals is a given by now.

Now of course each side can strawman certain things etc. I might even have the chance to show the said strawmanning in a couple of posts if need be.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> 1 vs 1 matchups can be argued and depend on a lot of factors, but everyone in their right state of mind cannot deny them being of equal level. Some Yonko beat some Admirals, some Admirals beat some Yonko.
> 
> Yonko fans wanted to leach off of WB's portrayal for years, not acknowledging that WB was placed above everyone.
> 
> ...


Appreciate the effort. Although I hardly agree, I can see that you worked for it.
Creature = any large or small living thing that can move independently ( therefore including humans ). This is according to
Cambridge dictionary.
Moreover, that SBS still stands no matter how you turn it or put it. Oda uses Kaido as the benchmark in any translation and form, in a straight comparison to Akainu.
Good job on your work


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## Corax (Apr 16, 2020)

Kaido is a fraud. Oda had at least one opportunity to confirm his title vs BM (nerfed BM with only 1 homie). But even in this case for some reason he chose not to. And after that Oden's disaster happened. Kaido will never recover from this. Next yonko?Well I suppose that Shanks and BB will show us a lot more and better feats than Kaido dew to power creep. Also they have more plot relevance so this is almost certain.


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## Kylo Ren (Apr 16, 2020)

Yonko
Yonko
Yonko


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## Lyren (Apr 16, 2020)

Back at DR, Luffy had to fight a restricted Fujitora who was carrying buildings with his gravity but it is not like Luffy was at his best either, he was still suffering from the injuries against DD and yet Fuji struggled to block G3 attack and it made him even sweat. 
On the other hand, Kaido who was drunk as hell, took on a fresh Luffy and one shoted his G4 form which is >>>> G3. You see how Fujitora performance pales in front of that of Kaido ?  
Fujitora>>Restricted Fuji without KI >~ Injured g3 Luffy without KI 
Full power Kaido>>>>>>>>Drunk kaido >>>>>>> fresh G4 luffy with KI >>>> Injured  G3 Luffy without KI

Do the maths


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 16, 2020)

wrong    .


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> What insult. Telling you that you have no clue is not an insult. It's just something you should think about. This is no debate. This is me trying to convince you rain comes from the clouds, not from the sun.
> Again, ignoring the Kaido/Akainu part. Good to know. Lost the ''debate'' here already.
> But for the sake of it, you get this reply and then I won't reply, not today at least. I need rest from trying to convince someone that snow is white and not black.
> So no proof he could have reacted to Kaido or that he was angry at the time.
> ...


1- No proof he was angry at the time lol:

You need to prove he was able to immediately switch between anger to being calm enough to use CoO in that moment of surprise. 

2- Kaidou starts to battle in Dragon form and then changes form to Human and uses his club to one shot Luffy. That’s the same as Lucci changing his form to leopard form and then one shotting Luffy. Lucci didn’t use his final form ether; he had other forms beyond that one. 

3- It’s not about believing the author. It’s about believing that Kaidou general rep is true. Considering that Kaidou has zero victories against any Top Tiers let alone the legendary ones the idea that he beat anyone 1v1 seems highly dubious to me. WSC has always been dubious to me linguistically. And a Joke in an SBS isn’t even evidence. So yeah until we actually hear about or see justification for Kaidou 1v1 fame; I’m not going to blindly believe that shit anymore then I believe Enel is an unstoppable God; or Shanks is unbeatable when he is mad; and so on

As far as this discussion goes; even if you choose to believe Kaidou rep your behavior of slinging insults around because someone else doesn’t, is ridiculous, and you should be able to acknowledge that even if you choose to believe the hype that Oda has given zero actual support for Kaidou hype in the manga; and only has detracted from it with him loosing to Oden and ending in a draw with BM (whose weakened).


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- No proof he was angry at the time lol:
> 
> You need to prove he was able to immediately switch between anger to being calm enough to use CoO in that moment of surprise.
> 
> ...


I do not recall insulting you. I actually consider myself to have behaved great considering what others have told you when you've shared your opinion ( on this topic ). 

Luffy wasn't angry before getting hit. Kaido was during a hangover and one shot a FM level character. Something that has never happened before.  Also, show me Lucci's better form than that, not that it would matter anyway.
Oda does not need to give any support even though he did. Oda's words are canon words. Your opinion, just as mine is completely nullified by the author's words.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Appreciate the effort. Although I hardly agree, I can see that you worked for it.
> Creature = any large or small living thing that can move independently ( therefore including humans ). This is according to
> Cambridge dictionary.
> Moreover, that SBS still stands no matter how you turn it or put it. Oda uses Kaido as the benchmark in any translation and form, in a straight comparison to Akainu.
> Good job on your work


The Cambridge dictionary definition doesn’t matter; because we’re not trying to define the word ‘creature’ (or in this case Seibutsu), we’re trying to define what Kaidou’s title means in the One Piece Universe. 

If Kaidou’s hype was as clear cut as him being the World’s Strongest Character; then Oda / One Piece characters could have just given him WB title of WSM, after WB passed away. Clearly there is a reason in universe that Kaidou is being called WSC, not WSM. And the manga highly suggests it’s because he is not considered human:

So in the context of the manga likely ‘creature’ isn’t being used to refer to humans.


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## Red Admiral (Apr 16, 2020)

I can't see the first post cause who ever made it is on my ignore list

but

1- Yonko
2- Yonko
3- Yonko


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The Cambridge dictionary definition doesn’t matter; because we’re not trying to define the word ‘creature’ (or in this case Seibutsu), we’re trying to define what Kaidou’s title means in the One Piece Universe.
> 
> If Kaidou’s hype was as clear cut as him being the World’s Strongest Character; then Oda / One Piece characters could have just given him WB title of WSM, after WB passed away. Clearly there is a reason in universe that Kaidou is being called WSC, not WSM. And the manga highly suggests it’s because he is not considered human:
> 
> *So in the context of the manga likely ‘creature’ isn’t being used to refer to humans*.


Proof for the bolded ?
Creatures include humans. So Kaido is not only stronger than old sick WB, but also stronger than the likes of Zunisha and other beings


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I do not recall insulting you. I actually consider myself to have behaved great considering what others have told you when you've shared your opinion ( on this topic ).
> 
> Luffy wasn't angry before getting hit. Kaido was during a hangover and one shot a FM level character. Something that has never happened before.  Also, show me Lucci's better form than that, not that it would matter anyway.
> Oda does not need to give any support even though he did. Oda's words are canon words. Your opinion, just as mine is completely nullified by the author's words.


1- I’m not going to argue with you over whether you have been “insulting” or not; you have made it extremely clear that you think my opinion on this is ridiculous; and I’m merely pointing out that whether you believe Kaidou hype or not you should understand why many people don’t believe Kaidou hype, considering Oda hasn’t given us shit in the manga to support it.

2- I repeat, You need to prove he was able to immediately switch between anger to being calm enough to use CoO in that moment of surprise.

3- The manga specifically explains that Lucci can use *Seimei Kikan *to alter his form beyond his basic Leopard Human form to max out the power of his Rokushiki Techniques. He then shows us one of these ascended forms against Luffy. 

4- It’s not Oda words though, you need to stop with that. Oda words only have Kaidou being ‘said to be’ 1v1 King or WSC. It’s Kadiou general hype/fame, but it’s not the same thing as Oda saying Kaidou is the strongest character, it just isn’t


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## Vivo Diez (Apr 16, 2020)

Yonko are just distractions during the poneglyph fetch quest. WG is the final opponent and you can bet your ass the admirals will be involved.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Proof for the bolded ?
> Creatures include humans. So Kaido is not only stronger than old sick WB, but also stronger than the likes of Zunisha and other beings


I said ‘likely’ refers to non humans; as that is the only explanation the manga gives us for the distinction between Kaidou being given WSC title and not WSM. 

Your explanation that he is given WSC because he is > Creatures like Zunisha and WB, doesn’t fit because WB wasn’t just called WSM, but WSP. Kaidou whether he is a Human/Inhuman Pirate, is still a Pirate, so WB is still > Kaidou, and therefore the idea that WSC title exists to place him above WSM or WB doesn’t make sense. 

Your stance also would have us believe their are creatures stronger then WB, which seems highly unlikely (though not impossible).


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- I’m not going to argue with you over whether you have been “insulting” or not; you have made it extremely clear that you think my opinion on this is ridiculous; and I’m merely pointing out that whether you believe Kaidou hype or not you should understand why many people don’t believe Kaidou hype, considering Oda hasn’t given us shit in the manga to support it.
> 
> 2- I repeat, You need to prove he was able to immediately switch between anger to being calm enough to use CoO in that moment of surprise.
> 
> ...


Oda also put Kaido over Akainu.
Plus, only a yonko hater would buy that shit with "said to be". The only role of that "said to be" is to make the character even more mysterious. Ace novel also confirms Kaido to be the most powerful creature alive iirc.



Turrin said:


> I said ‘likely’ refers to non humans; as that is the only explanation the manga gives us for the distinction between Kaidou being given WSC title and not WSM.
> 
> Your explanation that he is given WSC because he is > Creatures like Zunisha and WB, doesn’t fit because WB wasn’t just called WSM, but WSP. Kaidou whether he is a Human/Inhuman Pirate, is still a Pirate, so WB is still > Kaidou, and therefore the idea that WSC title exists to place him above WSM or WB doesn’t make sense.
> 
> Your stance also would have us believe their are creatures stronger then WB, which seems highly unlikely (*though not impossible*).


Good bolded.
The discussion does not even actually have a sense because we do not know how powerful WB was when he was WSM. The WB at marineford was a disappointment and multiple characters suggested that. His official title was World's strongest man.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Good bolded.
> The discussion does not even actually have a sense because we do not know how powerful WB was when he was WSM. The WB at marineford was a disappointment and multiple characters suggested that. His official title was World's strongest man.


I don’t think you get what I’m saying.

WSC can’t be there to distinguish Kaidou as WS character above WSM, because WSP would still place WB above Kaidou.

So again we are left with ether the title are all bullshit hearsay, and WB being WSP and Kaidou being WSC are just opinions of the characters, and not set in stone.

Or WSC refers to non humans only; thus allowing WB WSP hype to exists side by side with it and make sense.



Duhul10 said:


> Oda also put Kaido over Akainu.
> Plus, only a yonko hater would buy that shit with "said to be". The only role of that "said to be" is to make the character even more mysterious. Ace novel also confirms Kaido to be the most powerful creature alive iirc.


1- No Oda made a joke that you are taking way too seriously; and even then Light cleared that idea up in his post, that it’s not meant to be a direct comparison to Akainu.

2- Let’s stop this shit with Yonko hater; out of the Top Tiers my favorite characters is BM. It doesn’t make me a Yonko hater to point out that Kaidou hype is not even close to supported in canon accomplishments

3- Ace novel also confirms Shanks is unbeatable when Mad. So Mad Shanks > Kaidou. Your cherry picking what you want to believe


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t think you get what I’m saying.
> 
> WSC can’t be there to distinguish Kaidou as WS character above WSM, because WSP would still place WB above Kaidou.
> 
> ...


WB's official title is WSM iirc, but nevertheless, his title was definitely obtained before Kaido's and he kept it due to people not knowing his current level ( see Sengoku, Akainu and others ). I believe we have gone too deep into titles, yet I stand my point. I tend to believe in Oda's words.



Turrin said:


> 1- No Oda made a joke that you are taking way too seriously; and even then Light cleared that idea up in his post, that it’s not meant to be a direct comparison to Akainu.
> 
> 2- Let’s stop this shit with Yonko hater; out of the Top Tiers my favorite characters is BM. It doesn’t make me a Yonko hater to point out that Kaidou hype is not even close to supported in canon accomplishments
> 
> 3- Ace novel also confirms Shanks is unbeatable when Mad. So Mad Shanks > Kaidou. Your cherry picking what you want to believe


Where was Shanks in this discussion ? Shanks has no official title. Also, he is not called unbeatable iirc.
No proof the comparison was a joke. Only the situation, not the comparison.
I prefer to believe that you hate them. If you do not and you are objective with your opinion, it is even worse.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> WB's official title is WSM iirc, but nevertheless, his title was definitely obtained before Kaido's and he kept it due to people not knowing his current level ( see Sengoku, Akainu and others ). I believe we have gone too deep into titles, yet I stand my point. I tend to believe in Oda's words.
> 
> 
> Where was Shanks in this discussion ? Shanks has no official title. Also, he is not called unbeatable iirc.
> ...


1- How is WB title as WSP; less official then Kaidou title as WSC? And now your just trying to back out of the title discussion, because you can’t answer my question. How is Kaidou WSC, mean he is the strongest character; if WB is World Strongest Pirate? How can those two titles exists at the same time?

2- The novel says no one can stop Shanks when he is angry: “It is said that it is better to not make Shanks angry because when he is angry no one can stop him”

I’m bring up Shanks example to show you why the ‘it is said’ & novel hype statements, shouldn’t be taken overly seriously. 

3- As I said Light already covered the SBS in his post; if you insist on taking it seriously (which it clearly is not meant to be):

“And no that did not confirm anything. That is the official Viz translation. Even though they are similar, there are small nuances that make it different, such as 'even Kaido' not appearing. Moreover, Oda says world's strongest creature, not living being. In addition, he leaves no doubts to a mother actually being the WSC. He highlights it by saying she is stronger than Kaido, the supposed WSC, and she is thus the actual WSC. There's no room to debate about anything concerning the mother, as opposed to Kaido.
Oda, on his own accord went out of his way to make a distinction.”


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- How is WB title as WSP; less official then Kaidou title as WSC? And now your just trying to back out of the title discussion, because you can’t answer my question. How is Kaidou WSC, mean he is the strongest character; if WB is World Strongest Pirate? How can those two titles exists at the same time?
> 
> 2- The novel says no one can stop Shanks when he is angry: “It is said that it is better to not make Shanks angry because when he is angry no one can stop him”
> 
> ...


We are going in circles. Oda's words are Oda's words bro. WB's title was old and fragile just like himself. Creature=living being
And so on and so forth. I am tired of this. 99% of this forum do not agree with you. I was just the one unlucky enough to get to waste his time.
The words about Shanks are on the opposite of what happens in the manga ( losing an arm to a fodder beast, getting scarred by a pre yami teach and so on ), the words about Kaido, don't. 
I'm tired, bro. Go beat the meat, do something. We are done playing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> We are going in circles. Oda's words are Oda's words bro. WB's title was old and fragile just like himself. Creature=living being
> And so on and so forth. I am tired of this. 99% of this forum do not agree with you. I was just the one unlucky enough to get to waste his time.
> The *words about Shanks are on the opposite of what happens in the manga ( losing an arm to a fodder beast, getting scarred by a pre yami teach and so on* ), the words about Kaido, don't.
> I'm tired, bro. Go beat the meat, do something. We are done playing.


So it was confirmed he was angry in those instances?

I mean we all knew this when he cucked Kaido, the Marines and BB all in the space of a day. They know he is > 

The arm was done at an editor's behest btw. He wanted to make things more interesting.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> We are going in circles. Oda's words are Oda's words bro. WB's title was old and fragile just like himself. Creature=living being
> And so on and so forth. I am tired of this. 99% of this forum do not agree with you. I was just the one unlucky enough to get to waste his time.
> The words about Shanks are on the opposite of what happens in the manga ( losing an arm to a fodder beast, getting scarred by a pre yami teach and so on ), the words about Kaido, don't.
> I'm tired, bro. Go beat the meat, do something. We are done playing.


All I see here is that your unable to answer my questions and loosing the debate; so your throwing around random shit as a cop out. 

Ether answer the questions or be a man an concede you don’t have an appropriate answer


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> All I see here is that your unable to answer my questions and loosing the debate; so your throwing around random shit as a cop out.
> 
> Ether answer the questions or be a man an concede you don’t have an appropriate answer


Ask around who is losing what and if there actually is a debate. I'm done with you bro. 
I'm out.



Seraphoenix said:


> So it was confirmed he was angry in those instances?
> 
> I mean we all knew this when he cucked Kaido, the Marines and BB all in the space of a day. They know he is >
> 
> The arm was done at an editor's behest btw. He wanted to make things more interesting.


The arm was lost, editor or not.
What happened between Kaido and Shanks, we do not know. 
Nevertheless, my point was that Shanks is not invincible. Definitely not.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Ask around who is losing what and if there actually is a debate. I'm done with you bro.
> I'm out.
> 
> 
> ...


You tried to say he is not invincible when angry, by bringing up examples of him not being angry.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> You tried to say he is not invincible when angry, by bringing up examples of him not being angry.


How do we know he wasn't angry against Blackbeard and how does only being invincible while angry help him ? He lost an arm due to that condition.
Nevertheless, we know so little about Shanks, that there can only be found few things to discuss about him featwise.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Ask around who is losing what and if there actually is a debate. I'm done with you bro.
> I'm out.
> 
> 
> ...


Have some Neg reps for being such a poor sport


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> How do we know he wasn't angry against Blackbeard and how does only being invincible while angry help him ? He lost an arm due to that condition.
> Nevertheless, we know so little about Shanks, that there can only be found few things to discuss about him featwise.


If you're saying he was angry in those instances then by all means bring evidence. Until you can, you can't just ignore the novel.

Who says it has to help him? It's just a character trait.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Have some Neg reps for being such a poor sport


Thanks. It hurts me so bad. Getting tired after listening to you saying Luffy is going to solo Kaido, Marco is stronger than Kaido and shit like these for 2 days  is poor sport ?



Seraphoenix said:


> If you're saying he was angry in those instances then by all means bring evidence. Until you can, you can't just ignore the novel.
> 
> Who says it has to help him? It's just a character trait.


Of course I've got no evidence. The only evidence is that Shanks got scarred in a fight against someone he hates. What is the evidence of him not being angry?
Anyways, I am not denying the novel. He may be invincible while angry. Too bad it seems he never gets angry: losing an arm, having his nice face scarred; the man is too chill.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Thanks. It hurts me so bad. Getting tired after listening to you saying Luffy is going to solo Kaido, Marco is stronger than Kaido and shit like these for 2 days  is poor sport ?


Nope not admitting that the opposition has points you can’t answer and then resorting to personal attacks, makes you a bad sport.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Nope not admitting that the opposition has points you can’t answer and then resorting to personal attacks, makes you a bad sport.


1. you have 0 valid points.
2. they are personal if you percieve them as such. Instead, you should try and learn from what tens of other members tell you on most threads you post and stop believing the truth belongs to you and you alone up to a point that you deny the author's direct words.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> 1. you have 0 valid points.
> 2. they are personal if you percieve them as such. Instead, you should try and learn from what tens of other members tell you on most threads you post and stop believing the truth belongs to you and you alone up to a point that you deny the author's direct words.


So again you just can’t be man enough to admit that I have points you can’t answer.

I’ve already addressed the idea that these are the author direct words is a made up fallacy by you


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So again you just can’t be man enough to admit that I have points you can’t answer.
> 
> I’ve already addressed the idea that these are the author direct words is a made up fallacy by you


1.disliking my posts doesn't toughen yours.
2. you have no points Turrin; you deny and have denied what the author says, there is nothing to discuss afterwards.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 16, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> So it was confirmed he was angry in those instances?
> 
> I mean we all knew this when he cucked Kaido, the Marines and BB all in the space of a day. They know he is >
> 
> The arm was done at an editor's behest btw. He wanted to make things more interesting.



Shanks is a coward,he didn't have the guts to stop the admirals when they were attacking law's submarine,and sengoku stopped the war because he respects shanks and notthat he has some ties withh gorosei not because they were exhausted or didn't have the forces required to take him down.

Shanks would have been obliterated if sengoku continued the war


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> 1.disliking my posts doesn't toughen yours.
> 2. you have no points Turrin; you deny and have denied what the author says, there is nothing to discuss afterwards.


K whatever you want to think bruv


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> K whatever you want to think bruv


Finally, we agree 
It's nothing personal, Turrin. You know what was my opinion of you from the naruto section. Yet here, I can't support you on what you're sharing us.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Finally, we agree
> It's nothing personal, Turrin. You know what was my opinion of you from the naruto section. Yet here, I can't support you on what you're sharing us.


K we’ll leave it at that then. But I expect an apology then if Luffy tares Kaidou ass up; or Kaidou ends up not being 1v1 King or WSC only does refer to Non Humans


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> K we’ll leave it at that then. But I expect an apology then if Luffy tares Kaidou ass up; or Kaidou ends up not being 1v1 King or WSC only does refer to Non Humans


Excluding Im, yes, you'll get your apology. If they gang up on him, you will have to do it.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 16, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> I might even have the chance to show the said strawmanning in a couple of posts if need be.


Time to have some fun.



Per the manga, 1 Admiral>=2 Yonko

Kizaru was only stopped by Akainu due to the unknown military force in Wano. I stress again Wano, meaning Kizaru was gonna go to Wano, not somewhere along the way but Wano.

Per the manga, a soon to be Yonko runs away from an Admiral, soon to be Fleet Admiral

Per the manga, when an Admiral and a Yonko clash the only thing that's split is the Yonko, and half of his head

It was so bad that TOEI had to change it from this

to this

*Spoiler*: __ 








Per the manga, when the question is who rules this stretch of water, the answer is ' The Navy reigns supreme' with a panel of the Admirals and the Fleet Admiral

who are the ultimate military force of the WG

Per the manga, the PK asks for Admirals for a worthy fight, not the Yonko, whose ass he already beat up with a fellow marine.


Per the manga, one are throwaway mid series villains, while the others are saved for EoS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Excluding Im, yes, you'll get your apology. If they gang up on him, you will have to do it.


If they gang up on him more then Zoro helping out in Law type capacity landing a blow or two with Emma. Sure.

But if Luffy off fighting BM, King, etc.. while Super Nova fight Kaidou; and then eventually Luffy and Kaidou fight solo both weakened; that doesn’t count as a gang up.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Time to have some fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It’s going too far to say 1 Admiral is equal to 2 Yonko; but Admirals (especially Color Trio) being >= Kaidou became extremely likely the moment that Kaidou was going to loose before Luffy beat a single Admiral.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 16, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s going too far to say 1 Admiral is equal to 2 Yonko;





Light D Lamperouge said:


> Time to have some fun.


My man I was just having some fun. I think they are of equal level, with individual matchups being dependent on a lot of factors and arguable.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Flame (Apr 16, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Time to have some fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

All facts

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Apr 16, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Back at DR, Luffy had to fight a restricted Fujitora who was carrying buildings with his gravity but it is not like Luffy was at his best either, he was still suffering from the injuries against DD and yet Fuji struggled to block G3 attack and it made him even sweat.
> On the other hand, Kaido who was drunk as hell, took on a fresh Luffy and one shoted his G4 form which is >>>> G3. You see how Fujitora performance pales in front of that of Kaido ?
> Fujitora>>Restricted Fuji without KI >~ Injured g3 Luffy without KI
> Full power Kaido>>>>>>>>Drunk kaido >>>>>>> fresh G4 luffy with KI >>>> Injured  G3 Luffy without KI
> ...


No. Kaido was pummeled into the ground by G3 Elephant Gattling and his eyes went white for a second after Luffy landed G3 hit on his head. If anything their portrayal is equal vs G3. But objectively Kaido's is worse.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 16, 2020)

Corax said:


> No. Kaido was pummeled into the ground by G3 Elephant Gattling and his eyes went white for a second after Luffy landed G3 hit on his head. If anything their portrayal is equal vs G3. But objectively Kaido's is worse.


Kaido was drunk and was not hurt at all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Apr 16, 2020)

Why on earth is this still being debated?

If it wasn't clear enough from the manga that the Yonkou are generally above the Admirals, the author explicitly confirmed this at Jumpfesta 2015. That's five years ago. Five!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Akainu, due to his elevated status and role in the story, may indeed rival some Yonkou level characters further in the story. But in general, the admirals are weaker.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 16, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> 1 vs 1 matchups can be argued and depend on a lot of factors, but everyone in their right state of mind cannot deny them being of equal level. Some Yonko beat some Admirals, some Admirals beat some Yonko.
> 
> Yonko fans wanted to leach off of WB's portrayal for years, not acknowledging that WB was placed above everyone.
> 
> ...



I agree that they are on a similar level they aren't equal though.

Current Akainu under the assumption he has gotten stronger is the only dude beating the yonkou. Maybe maybe Aokiji can beat Black beard as he is a dynamic charcter in the middle of his growth. Outside of that though Kizaru, Green bull, or Fujitora beating a Yonkou isn't happening.

In other words most of the yonkou beat all the Admirals while none of the admirals can beat most of the yonkou Imo anyway. So there is a small but noteworthy gap between the two.


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## Turrin (Apr 16, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I agree that they are on a similar level they aren't equal though.
> 
> Current Akainu under the assumption he has gotten stronger is the only dude beating the yonkou. Maybe maybe Aokiji can beat Black beard as he is a dynamic charcter in the middle of his growth. Outside of that though Kizaru, Green bull, or Fujitora beating a Yonkou isn't happening.
> 
> In other words most of the yonkou beat all the Admirals while none of the admirals can beat most of the yonkou Imo anyway. So there is a small but noteworthy gap between the two.


How have you arrived at this conclusion. The only instances where we here talk of Yonko and Admirals clashing; is the Admirals performing well against WB (arguably the strongest Yonko) and Kizaru/Akainu being confident they can take on Yonko.


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## Corax (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido was drunk and was not hurt at all.


Kaido wasn't hurt but his eyes went white for a bit. Objectively Fujitora did better. Kaido was grounded and pummeled into the ground. Fujitora stood firm and was only slightly pushed back. Kaido was shaken and his eyes went white. Fujitora wasn't shaken by G3 attack. This is clear for anyone who reads manga objectively.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

Corax said:


> Kaido wasn't hurt but his eyes went white for a bit. Objectively Fujitora did better. Kaido was grounded and pummeled into the ground. Fujitora stood firm and was only slightly pushed back. Kaido was shaken and his eyes went white. Fujitora wasn't shaken by G3 attack. This is clear for anyone who reads manga objectively.


Yest, but at the same time, *objectively*, a drunk man will never even pe half comparable to his normal self. Eyes going white it is actually simply phyisics. Kaido was looking up, therefore a powerful enough hit would push his skull in a manner that it would make it look that way. 
Nevertheless, both Fujitora and Kaido are on such a higher level compared to Luffy it's funny.


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2020)

Corax said:


> No. Kaido was pummeled into the ground by G3 Elephant Gattling and his eyes went white for a second after Luffy landed G3 hit on his head. If anything their portrayal is equal vs G3. But objectively Kaido's is worse.


Don't know how to came to that conclusion. Kaido didn't even try to block any attack. He just stood there. Fujitora tried to engage Luffy in combat.


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The Cambridge dictionary definition doesn’t matter; because we’re not trying to define the word ‘creature’ (or in this case Seibutsu), we’re trying to define what Kaidou’s title means in the One Piece Universe.
> 
> If Kaidou’s hype was as clear cut as him being the World’s Strongest Character; then Oda / One Piece characters could have just given him WB title of WSM, after WB passed away. Clearly there is a reason in universe that Kaidou is being called WSC, not WSM. And the manga highly suggests it’s because he is not considered human:
> 
> So in the context of the manga likely ‘creature’ isn’t being used to refer to humans.



What the hell is up with these mental gymnastics ? Kaido isn't a man to be called WSM, that's been clear cut implied in the manga as many times as we gotten something on Kaido. In this context also his title includes every living thing as we saw in his introduction. The narrator's words not mine. So unless humans aren't living things on OP's planet that live on land, then simply put you are fucking wrong again. Piss off with this idiotic tldr nonsense you keep on posting.



Turrin said:


> Oda threw it in our face that Enel was a God; I guess Enel > Roger/Kaidou/WB, right?
> 
> Luffy being neg diff’d by the main antagonist is nothing new; you act as if this exact same scene of Luffy being unable to do shit to damage Lucci and Corodile; and them owning him didn’t happen before. Luffy didn’t even use the skills that made him YC1 in the first place; so he was more YC level if were being honest. So wow Kaidou low diff’d a YC, man that’s some crazy shit non of the other Top Tiers can do right?
> 
> ...



Enel was only reffered to as god in skypeia. He wasn't called the god of earth. Kaido is called the WSC in the entire planet. So wrong.

Luffy being neg diff in such manner has never happened. He didn't fight back with Lucci he actually wasn't one shotted as you imply. He was still concscious and pushed back 2 buildings like nothing. Crocodile had a massive advantage in that Luffy couldn't touch him. Kaido on the other hand overwhelmed Luffy in every possible way. He was completely undamaged by Luffy's strongest attacks, I mean he sighed at Luffy's attempts, he completely speed blitzed his ass and one shot him without using his best attacks.

Doflamingo went pale at the thought of Kaido. He didn't give a shit about 2 Admirals. Manga FACT.

Kaido is going down to multiple opponents not only Luffy whether you like it or not.


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## Kylo Ren (Apr 17, 2020)

No contest, Yonko defeat Admirals in any category. Just like what WB did to Akainu in MF.


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## Beast (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Of course I've got no evidence. The only evidence is that Shanks got scarred in a fight against someone he hates. What is the evidence of him not being angry?
> Anyways, I am not denying the novel. He may be invincible while angry. Too bad it seems he never gets angry: losing an arm, having his nice face scarred; the man is too chill.


this is @Gledinos level post.


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## Gledania (Apr 17, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> this is @Gledinos level post.



Bruh ..

You think Koby's feat of using bluewalk prove he is above pre skip CP9 members because none of them *have been shown* using blue walk and you call me out for not bringing evidences ????
gtfo


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> this is @Gledinos level post.


Is that supposed to be good or less than good ?


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## Gledania (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Is that supposed to be good or less than good ?


Whether it is or not, it's still better than MB tier post when he speaks about Kidd ,Koby , or Garp. 

Way better ... you can't even imagine.


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> What the hell is up with these mental gymnastics ? Kaido isn't a man to be called WSM, that's been clear cut implied in the manga as many times as we gotten something on Kaido. In this context also his title includes every living thing as we saw in his introduction. The narrator's words not mine. So unless humans aren't living things on OP's planet that live on land, then simply put you are fucking wrong again. Piss off with this idiotic tldr nonsense you keep on posting.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whitebeard was called WSP; Kaidou is a Pirate even if he is considered non-human. So how can WSC = World Strongest Character; and White Beard at the same time be > Kaidou, as WSP. There is no way both of these titles can exist at the same time unless WSC is only referring to Non-Humans exclusively.

I’m aware what Creature means by definition; but that doesn’t mean Oda is using it in its colloquial capacity when giving Kaidou the World Strongest Creature Title. An example of what I’m talking about Is a “Creature Feature”.
*
creature*-*feature*. Noun. (plural *creature features*) (idiomatic, film, humorous) A horror film in which one or more monsters plays a prominent role.

When someone says Creature Feature they are not using the word to invoke its colloquial meaning, they are specifically talking about inhuman monsters that appear within that genre of film. Because ‘Creature’ here is part of the title Creature Feature it takes on a different meaning then it would colloquially.

In One Piece we have a evidence that ‘Creature’ in WSC, is also suppose to invoke the idea of a Non-Human / Monster like in Creature Feature:
—-

It doesn’t matter where Enel was called a God; he was still consider a God by the people and that was his epitaph/fame/hype; but at the end of the day he wasn’t a God, whether in Skypia or otherwise he was Pirate and not even Top Tier. Heck Ussop has the Title of God Ussop on his Bounty. Is he beyond Kaidou because he is a God too? I would say no; and I think it just shows we shouldn’t take Fame too seriously in One Piece. The world is made more dynamic then that by Oda, where people can get titles that are not fully representative of their actual abilities; their fame can exceed them.

—-

Luffy absolutely did fight back against Lucci:

And we see Luffy conscious many chapters later; if he was conscious right away he would have rushed back to fight Lucci again.

Crocodile “advantage” that Luffy couldn’t damage him is the same thing as Luffy not being able to damage Kaidou.

Literally both Crocodile and Lucci took everything Luffy threw at them with zero damage; and then the moment they got serious One-Shot him; it’s the same exact thing as what went down with Kaidou.

—-
Doflamingo has leverage on the WG; and not on Kaidou. Unless your going to really argue Doflamingo could beat an Admiral this clearly has nothing to do with strength

—-
Luffy may get some support from Zoro or another SN like it was with Law and DD; or it might be a situation where is a MF cluster fuck and Kaidou fights different Supernova at times while Luffy fights BM and YC at times; I mean Luffy is already fighting people while Kaidou is chilling in Onigashima. But ether way at the end of the day Luffy is going to do most of the work against Kaidou; and by the end of the arc he will be at least as close to Kaidou as he was to Doflamingo; give or take a little bit.

What is not going to happen is Kidd, Law, Zoro, Luffy, etc... all ganging up on Kaidou at once and putting in equal work to beat him. It defeats the entire purpose of building up Kaidou as Luffy first Yonko class enemy to defeat since the start of P2. Narratively Kaidou is there as Luffy gate way to Yonko level: as such he is not only likely the weakest Yonko (or tied for that spot), but Luffy needs to be the one primarily responsible for his defeat.


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## Santoryu (Apr 17, 2020)

Kylo Ren said:


> No contest, Yonko defeat Admirals in any category. Just like what WB did to Akainu in MF.





And this was a diabetic and old Whitebeard with a hole in his chest


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Whitebeard was called WSP; Kaidou is a Pirate even if he is considered non-human. So how can WSC = World Strongest Character; and White Beard at the same time be > Kaidou, as WSP. There is no way both of these titles can exist at the same time unless WSC is only referring to Non-Humans exclusively.


WB is a greater pirate than Kaido, that was explained in the novel. Same way Roger is the greatest and strongest pirate ever yet WB could match him. 



> I’m aware what Creature means by definition; but that doesn’t mean Oda is using it in its colloquial capacity when giving Kaidou the World Strongest Creature Title. An example of what I’m talking about Is a “Creature Feature”.
> *
> creature*-*feature*. Noun. (plural *creature features*) (idiomatic, film, humorous) A horror film in which one or more monsters plays a prominent role.
> 
> ...



You don't know shit because you are basically ignoring everyhting again and trying to create your own fan canon.

Let's go at this again

Kaido is called the strongest creature

Kaido is not human.

Word creature includes every living thing. 

Oda shows this in Kaido's ending narration. out of every living thing, not out of animals and monsters. Literally every living thing includes in land, sea and air.

Oda again directly compared Kaido with Akainu and says that a mother is the strongest in the world even stronger than Kaido, directly placing Kaido above Akainu. But you are ignoring that too.
—-



> It doesn’t matter where Enel was called a God; he was still consider a God by the people and that was his epitaph/fame/hype; but at the end of the day he wasn’t a God, whether in Skypia or otherwise he was Pirate and not even Top Tier. Heck Ussop has the Title of God Ussop on his Bounty. Is he beyond Kaidou because he is a God too? I would say no; and I think it just shows we shouldn’t take Fame too seriously in One Piece. The world is made more dynamic then that by Oda, where people can get titles that are not fully representative of their actual abilities; their fame can exceed them.



How doesn't it matter ? Enel was called god in an island that's completely separated from the world. He isn't one of the Yonko who rule the NW, one of the 4 greatest pirates. He is just a nobody that lives secluded in Skypeia. And now you are bringing the ongoing joke that's been going on with Usopp. Do you know why that doesn't work with Kaido ? let's see

Kaido is the overarching antagonist of the entire post skip narrative. That means he's been the goal since PH, that also means he's the goal for nearly 8 years. A freaking underling of Kaido was the main antagonist of an arc.  Enel was a random that the straw hats just happened to meet in Skypeia.

Oda has been building up the Yonko since chapter 434. He didn't do it yesterday.

Kaido was said to be the strongest creature in chapter 697.

Doflamingo the guy who doesn't give a single fuck was terrified of him.

Kaido has gotten the biggest introduction ever, having several pages of narration speaking of his might.

Kaido has currently the highest bounty in the series. 

Kaido is based on the 2 strongest mythological beasts of Japan.

Kaido one shot an FM opponent.

Orochi said that the entire WG can't do shit to him because of Kaido. CP0 didn't seem to disagree..

Is the only Yonko that became one through sheer strength. Fact.

Was an apprentice in the worst pirate crew the world has ever seen when they were killing each other constantly. Managed to survive in said crew that consisted of a 30 year old Big Mom, a 34 year old WB, Shiki etc He survived as a teen in there.

Do I have to say more ? All of this is in the manga and you are going to say that Oda spent hundreds of chapters building all of this up, spent an entire decade just to say that lol "Well Kaido isn't a big deal, he's weaker than Marco"



—-



> Luffy absolutely did fight back against Lucci:
> 
> And we see Luffy conscious many chapters later; if he was conscious right away he would have rushed back to fight Lucci again.
> 
> ...


It's not the same. Luffy was only seen later because we had a flashback in between. Luffy wasn't as injured as he was against Kaido and Lucci didn't one shot him.

Crocodile advantage is not the same because it's Kaido's toughness that allows him to take then attacks, not some cheap logia ability. And that's Kaido without even using a glimpse of his full strength.

—-
[/quote]Doflamingo has leverage on the WG; and not on Kaidou. Unless your going to really argue Doflamingo could beat an Admiral this clearly has nothing to do with strength[/quote]

Doflamingo could just ask the WG for help, it wouldn't matter, he had them by the balls. Still prefered to avoid Kaido. Also I never said that Doflamingo is stronger than an Admiral, fact is he was terrified of Kaido and he didn't give a damn about 2 Admirals, he outright said he'd kill one.

—-


> Luffy may get some support from Zoro or another SN like it was with Law and DD; or it might be a situation where is a MF cluster fuck and Kaidou fights different Supernova at times while Luffy fights BM and YC at times; I mean Luffy is already fighting people while Kaidou is chilling in Onigashima. But ether way at the end of the day Luffy is going to do most of the work against Kaidou; and by the end of the arc he will be at least as close to Kaidou as he was to Doflamingo; give or take a little bit.
> 
> What is not going to happen is Kidd, Law, Zoro, Luffy, etc... all ganging up on Kaidou at once and putting in equal work to beat him. It defeats the entire purpose of building up Kaidou as Luffy first Yonko class enemy to defeat since the start of P2. Narratively Kaidou is there as Luffy gate way to Yonko level: as such he is not only likely the weakest Yonko (or tied for that spot), but Luffy needs to be the one primarily responsible for his defeat.




Why is that not going to happen when that's exactly what is being build up on happen ? because you say so ? 

Kaido isn't narratively there for Luffy as a gate way. Kaido again is the overrarching antagonist of the entire post skip narrative and the main antagonist of the biggest arc since MF which Oda even said it'll surpass MF. Oda spent multiple years, entire arcs, plot points, build up after build up to get to Kaido and you call him a single gate way for Luffy ? Lol

Like seriously dude just stick to Naruto. Your grasp of this series and how it's been directly is completely idiotic. Should have never replied to you again when you said Marco is stronger than Kaido but couldn't contain reading more of your crap. This is your last reply. Now you can screw off.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santoryu (Apr 17, 2020)

Wait

Did Turrin actually say Kaidou is weaker than Marco?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Wait
> 
> Did Turrin actually say Kaidou is weaker than Marco?


Yeah...once. Those were dark times


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## Santoryu (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Yeah...once. Those were dark times





I shouldn't be surprised.
This is the same guy that said Zabuza was equal to MS Kakashi in the NBD.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 17, 2020)

Kylo Ren said:


> what WB did to Akainu in MF.


lose half his head despite doing a sneak attack ?


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> WB is a greater pirate than Kaido, that was explained in the novel. Same way Roger is the greatest and strongest pirate ever yet WB could match him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- Greater /= Stronger. WB title was the WSP; not World’s Greatest Pirate. The novel’s author (not Oda) tried to make sense of this contradiction of WSC and WSP; and basically tried to justify it as WSP = World’s Greatest Pirate. That’s fine but it shows my point that these titles are open to interpretation and can’t be taken strictly literally and their inverse meanings can be different form their literally definition.

2- Your just repeating yourself about this WSC stuff. Yes the colloquial definition of creature includes humans; but a title doesn’t necessarily adhere to the colloquial definition of a word. In creature in many context can refer to non humans. Saying he is the Strongest in Land/Air/Sea; can still refer to Non Humans. The SBS was already covered early in this threat by @Light D Lamperouge, so see his post

3- It’s doesn’t matter because it still shows over inflated hype is something Oda does all the time. Enel and Ussop are famed as gods but they aren’t Gods they are men. Heck even recently it was stated that Oden knew no enemy of his caliber, which is clearly false unless you believe Oden > Roger:

Oda has the narration throw shit like this in there to hype characters based on their fame which isn’t always accurate. So too can be the case with Kaidou

4- All the hype and narrative build up you listed applies just fine to Kaidou being Yonko level; and the first Yonko Luffy will defeat. However Kaidou has no accomplishments or narrative plot points that support the idea that he is the current strongest character or 1v1 King; Kaidou doesn’t even have a single confirmed win against a Top Tier under his belt, let alone one of the Top Tiers presumed to be among the strongest like Shanks, Akainu, Dragon, etc... Not even getting into WB and Roger. Anyone who is being intellectually honest should be able to acknowledge Oda has done nothing to substantiate Kaidou hype as being legit beyond the fact that I’m sure many people consider Kaidou the Strongest or unbeatable 1v1 simply due to being a long standing Yonko; Just like clearly we have people believe Shanks is unbeatable when he’s Mad in t he Ace Novel.

5- Even before the FB; Luffy is not shown conscious while CP9 leave and travel to Franky workshop and capture him. Luffy also clearly was not conscious as he wouldn’t have left his crew and Iceberg to face CP9 alone if he was. Heck Iceberg would have burned to death if not for chopper saving him as Luffy didn’t even come back to the scene in time. It’s ridiculous to assume Luffy was anything other then KO’d

Kaidou toughness or Logia are both abilities of the villain; it doesn’t matter in the grand scheme of things

6- Can I see evidence that Doflamingo could get the world government to mobilize and save him from Kaidou on a consistent basis; which would essentially require him to have at least and Admiral to guard him personally at all times from a potential Kaidou attack (maybe more a Kaidou could bring his commanders too); let’s not be silly here. He had the government by the balls enough to have some leverage but not enough to command them and the Navy around to that extent


7- I don’t see any build up for that at all. Luffy faces Kaiodu the first time 1v1 and looses; he says he’s going to train to face Kaidou again and beat him; at no point does Luffy ever mention team up on Kaidou ever. He always has considered this a solo fight; even back when telling BM he was going to beat Kaidou.

Yes and Luffy always beats the main antagonists himself; so why would there suddenly be a change here? Your denying what the story has historically shown us and what Luffy himself keeps saying.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 17, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> lose half his head despite doing a sneak attack ?


This 2 shot meme needs to die out. 

Akainu got back up from a sneak punch from the WSM, enraged sneak punch from someone hyped to possess the power to destroy the world.

The first punch landed by surprise, yet Akainu got back up immediately, launched a counterattack and melted half of WB's face

and not even that could stop him, as evident here and explained


What's interesting to note is that Akainu's focus wasn't on WB. Akainu was dead set on taking out two threats of the future, Luffy and Ace.The first thing Akainu did was build a tunnel underground to avoid unnecessary battles, and went right back to chasing Luffy. Whitebeard was literally not even the second thing on Akainu's mind. He was an annoyance just like everyone else, keeping him from getting to Luffy. Wb himself and Akainu stated MF is WB's place of death. Akainu didn't have WB on his mind, he was busy trying to exterminate the two future threats, Luffy and Ace.

Akainu's sole focus was on getting rid of the threats of the future, WB was just an annoyance, like anyone else, in his way to Luffy and Ace.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2020)

I’ll just reply about the Oden panel you posted. Every translation says that he returned many times stronger than before not that he knew no enemy of his caliber


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> I’ll just reply about the Oden panel you posted. Every translation says that he returned many times stronger than before not that he knew no enemy of his caliber


If you have the raw I’ll look at it but that’s the translation I’ve seen. And I don’t trust Viz; they suck


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## Dellinger (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If you have the raw I’ll look at it but that’s the translation I’ve seen. And I don’t trust Viz; they suck


It’s only viz. it’s every good translator. And sorry but Stephen who’s been translating OP for a decade is far more reliable than you


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## Corax (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Yest, but at the same time, *objectively*, a drunk man will never even pe half comparable to his normal self. Eyes going white it is actually simply phyisics. Kaido was looking up, therefore a powerful enough hit would push his skull in a manner that it would make it look that way.
> Nevertheless, both Fujitora and Kaido are on such a higher level compared to Luffy it's funny.


And Fujitora is blind. But this is manga,being blind or drunk isn't an issue here. People in manga can fight even without legs and arms. Or with just one half of their head like WB did. But yes of course both of them are on a far higher lvl. even than current WCI Luffy.


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## GucciBandana (Apr 17, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Why on earth is this still being debated?
> 
> If it wasn't clear enough from the manga that the Yonkou are generally above the Admirals, the author explicitly confirmed this at Jumpfesta 2015. That's five years ago. Five!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> Akainu, due to his elevated status and role in the story, may indeed rival some Yonkou level characters further in the story. But in general, the admirals are weaker.



There was never anything confirmed about Yonko and Admirals in no jumpfesta, only Oda saying Akainu can reach Pirate King level or higher in less than a year(40 chapter ish).


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

Corax said:


> And Fujitora is blind. But this is manga,being blind or drunk isn't an issue here. People in manga can fight even without legs and arms. Or with just one half of their head like WB did. But yes of course both of them are on a far higher lvl. even than current WCI Luffy.


Fujitora's CoO makes up for his lack of eyes.
Have you ever been drunk ?



GucciBandana said:


> There was never anything confirmed about Yonko and Admirals in no jumpfesta, only Oda saying Akainu can reach Pirate King level or higher in less than a year(40 chapter ish).


And Kaido being stronger than him. Just Oda things


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## Turrin (Apr 17, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> It’s only viz. it’s every good translator. And sorry but Stephen who’s been translating OP for a decade is far more reliable than you


I don’t know who Stephan is; I just said I would look at the raw if you had it and decide for myself and that the only scan I saw was that one. Anyway, even if you want to discount that as translation error; it doesn’t change my point that Oda hypes shit up all the time; that isn’t meant to be taken literally. WSP vs WSC example I gave you (and “Gods” example) already shows that


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## Dunno (Apr 17, 2020)

1. The Admirals overall. They had way more impact early on, and they will have more impact at the end of the manga. We are currently in the Yonkou saga though, so the Yonkou are more important to the current plot line.

2. The ones who haven't lost to Yonkou commanders.

3. Akainu = Shanks >= Aokiji = Blackbeard > Kizaru = Kaido >= Fujitora > Big Mom.

The Admirals extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Apr 17, 2020)

Manga states 1 admiral >= 2 yonko, who am I to argue against that?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

Cyrus the Cactus said:


> Manga states 1 admiral >= 2 yonko, who am I to argue against that?


I would argue 1 admiral > 3 yonko, but who am I to contradict you ?


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## Fel1x (Apr 17, 2020)

why even discuss theme like Yonko vs Admirals?
If Shanks didn't prevent Kaido from showing in MF, there would be no alive admirals


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I would argue 1 admiral > 3 yonko, but who am I to contradict you ?



Manga dictates Queen and King can individually beat Meme who is = other Yonkou, but who am I to argue otherwise?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Manga dictates Queen and King can individually beat Meme who is = other Yonkou, but who am I to argue otherwise?


And when you woke up, it was 7 in the morning


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> And when you woke up, it was 7 in the morning



There are panels showing it, is it also a dream?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> There are panels showing it, is it also a dream?


Those when O-Lin abused Queen while not in her sane state of mind, empty handed, no haki and so on? Or those when Kata said their entire crew would lose to Mama ? Which one of these ?


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Those when O-Lin abused Queen while not in her sane state of mind, empty handed, no haki and so on? Or those when Kata said their entire crew would lose to Mama ? Which one of these ?



The end result counts and who was the winner in the end? 

I like how you don't even try to dispute BM and her whole crew being helpless against King.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> The end result counts and who was the winner in the end?
> 
> I like how you don't even try to dispute BM and her whole crew being helpless against King.


No proof King is better than Kata sooo why should I dispute anything ? Let me laugh before you say bounty or something


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Have some Neg reps for being such a poor sport


 Yo, WTF? This dude has been the most polite person in this thread to you?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 17, 2020)

Turrin said:


> How have you arrived at this conclusion. The only instances where we here talk of Yonko and Admirals clashing; is the Admirals performing well against WB (arguably the strongest Yonko) and Kizaru/Akainu being confident they can take on Yonko.



Couple reasons.

1. oda gives the Yonkou more hype and respect then the Admirals. WB was WSM, world ending hype, king of the seas, whitebeards age all that good stuff, Kaidou is WSC, immortal, multiple failed execution attempts, conquered Wano 20 years ago a place that the WG for the last 800 years said fuck no its not worth the trouble, Kid Big Mom without a devil fruit was stated to have Fleet Admiral potential based on her genetics alone, and her empire was strong enough even 25 years ago that Roger would rather avoid her then fight her, Black-beard has two of the most powerful if not the two most powerful devil fruits on the planet, is the MC main antagonist, and became a yonkou in less then 3 years after leaving the WB pirates, Shanks is Shanks don't think i need to go over him dude can walk into the holy land with no consequences VS The Admirals who are stated to be the strongest fighting force of the marines. The same marines that have to work together with hired pirates(Warlords) just to fail at keeping the pirate menace under control . What individual hype do the Admirals have besides being the Marines top dogs? Doflamingo called Green bull and Fujitora monsters thats nice i guess. Akainu got himself a promotion to fleet Admiral so thats good. Fujitora was in dressrosa and he was a afterthought for most of the arc. Fujitora and Green bull duke it out with Sabo and 4 Revo commanders with no indication it was a one sided beat down for the admirals. While Kaidou has a entire army built up to take him down which includes half the supernovas, and the original plan was to have marco and the remnants of White-beards crew help them win. Oda goes out of his way to hype up the Yonkou can't say the same for the Admirals.

2. This is kind of related to 1 as its technically hype i suppose but the balance of power is clearly in the Pirates favor. Its the pirate age for a reason. The WG are at such a disadvantage they had to hire pirates(Warlords) just to help them fight off other pirates, but despite that Sengoku still thought they could possibly lose to WB just 1 yonkou. 2 Yonkou coming together is considered disastrous by Sengoku to the point he considers it a greater threat then Rocks, which is a force that took the greatest pirate and greatest marine in history to defeat.

3. The Yonkou are the biggest blockades to the Main Character and possibly the main villain BB. Luffy and BB got to deal with pirates more specifically the yonkou to become PK. The Marines aka Admirals are just a annoying side show who will only become relevant when Luffy/BB decide to get rid of the WG. Which at that point it goes beyond the Admirals as they aren't even the targets of Luffy or BBs wrath that would be the Gorosei/Im-sama. Of course its possible Luffy kicks a admirals ass before that big final war, but my point is all the yonkou have a much significant purpose in the manga then all the admirals besides Fleet Admiral Akainu. Whitebeard and Shanks are obstacles for BB, Big mom, kaidou, and BB are obstacles for Luffy to overcome. As for the Admirals Akainu is the only important obstacle and he could just as easily be taken out by Sabo or Dragon. Plot significance between the two is massive and that goes back to this being a Pirate Age. The pirates are calling the shots and making the big moves the WG has just been playing defense out of fear that the pirates will come together and fuck them up.

So on average we have

Yonkou

Worlds 4 most powerful pirates
Two Worlds Strongest titles
Future Pirate King Contender(BB)
Only Person with two devil fruits(BB)
Immortal can't be killed(Kaidou)
Freak of nature can't be hurt(Big MoM)
World Ending Power(WB)
4-5 COTC Users one of which is at the pinnacle of it(Shanks)(Don't recall if BB has COTC probably does)

Admirals

Marines Greatest Fighting Force
Fastest person on the planet(Kizaru)
Highest Offensive power(Akainu)
Fleet Admiral/Future Main Antagonist?(Akainu)

Thats about it. Everyone else just scales off daddy Akainu. Of course you can always argue that the hype the yonkou get is not a true representation of their strength but my main point is that oda is giving in to them in the first place. Regardless if you buy the hype of the yonkou the fact they have such hype given to them by oda can not be denied. 

If Oda wants me to think that any Admiral has a reasonable chance at being superior then the Yonkou outside of Fleet Admiral Akainu, then he ain't doing a good job of hyping them up. Cause as it stands the best thing the Admirals get is scaling off of Magma Daddy Akainu and his plot significance.

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## Santoryu (Apr 17, 2020)

GucciBandana said:


> There was never anything confirmed about Yonko and Admirals in no jumpfesta, only Oda saying Akainu can reach Pirate King level or higher in less than a year(40 chapter ish).



Did you attend the event?


Youtube footage has been there for years as translated Mr Ryato Narita


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> No proof King is better than Kata sooo why should I dispute anything ? Let me laugh before you say bounty or something



We know the bounty of King?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> We know the bounty of King?


Exactly


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Exactly



Its Higher then Katakuris thats for sure.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Exactly



Which chapter?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Its Higher then Katakuris thats for sure.


And ?



TheWiggian said:


> Which chapter?


No chapter, we do know Queen's. I was expecting you to try toughen  your argument with something like that.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 17, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> No chapter, we do know Queen's. I was expecting you to try toughen  your argument with something like that.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 17, 2020)




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## Sherlōck (Apr 17, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yonkou
> 
> Worlds 4 most powerful pirates
> Two Worlds Strongest titles
> ...



Admirals

Four most powerful Marines
Will give you that. But one is alleged. Also Roger/Garp despite being equal to WB didn’t have WSM title. And they bashed WSM & alleged WSC's dad's face in.
Akainu could find OP in one year.
Ditto.
If you can be injured, you can be killed.
All Admirals were considered monster before they even joined and Meme is getting her shit kicked in Wano soon. 
More like a DF speciality but OK.
Yet to be seen.

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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 17, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Immortal can't be kille*d(Kaidou)
> Freak of nature *can't be hurt*(Big MoM)


LOL

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kinjin (Apr 17, 2020)

What have you done with the real DD @Donquixote Doflamingo

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hardcore (Apr 17, 2020)

ofc it's a hyperbole for kaido but



Sherlōck said:


> If you can be injured, you can be killed.



lol not really


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## trance (Apr 17, 2020)

kaido is just supremely durable not immortal


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## savior2005 (Apr 17, 2020)

Yonko for all 3. While I think some admirals (akainu) are stronger then the weakest yonko (big mom lol), at the end of the day, this is a manga about pirates. So I see their group as the winner in each portrayal


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 17, 2020)

Kinjin said:


> What have you done with the real DD @Donquixote Doflamingo



What do you mean my friend


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## Kylo Ren (Apr 18, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> lose half his head despite doing a sneak attack ?


Keep telling yourself that. 



Light D Lamperouge said:


> This 2 shot meme needs to die out.
> 
> Akainu got back up from a sneak punch from the WSM, enraged sneak punch from someone hyped to possess the power to destroy the world.
> 
> ...


You're putting too much effort lately here bro, so much to prove something, eh? 




Your Boy mad as fuck WB didn't pay attention to him lol Akainu himself said so, unlike you're trying to claim in your post. all I need is one picture not an essay. 

WB is fuckin monologuing in front of Red Dog lmao.

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## Sherlōck (Apr 18, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> lol not really



It is really.

Akainu can melt his head, Shanks can chop it of.


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## Kylo Ren (Apr 18, 2020)

1)- Which group has more plot relevance?
2)- Which group has better portrayal?
3)- Which group wins in a team battle?

Alright, let's give this an honest answer.


1) Yonko. Shanks started our MC's journey towards PK status, Our MC wants to defeat him more than anyone. All members of Yonko have their own arc unlike Admirals they may appear however not as main antagonist instead a fighter of the real antagonist. Guess who's fighting them? MC's ally. and BB has a nod for being the FV.

2) Yonko. WB tops everything Admirals did.



Doffy see Admirals in action but only when WB did something that he is getting excited as fuck. Same, Doffy that chose to attack two admirals while avoid a Yonko's wrath. oh, and ex admiral became underling of a Yonko lmao.

Hawkins chance of success with Admirals is not 0 while with Kaido it's 0.

Kaido despite his losing record people talking about him being unkillable and unbeatable in 1v1. you never heard that kind of gossip in the admirals.


3) too obvious. Yonko.

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## GucciBandana (Apr 18, 2020)

Santoryu said:


> Did you attend the event?
> 
> 
> Youtube footage has been there for years as translated Mr Ryato Narita



Which quote are you referring to?


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## Dellinger (Apr 18, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Admirals
> 
> Four most powerful Marines
> Will give you that. But one is alleged. Also Roger/Garp despite being equal to WB didn’t have WSM title. And they bashed WSM & alleged WSC's dad's face in.
> ...



Akainu can find OP in a year and Oda outright compared him and Kaido and Kaido is stronger. Your point ?


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## BigDKaios (Apr 18, 2020)

1.)Yonko. Luffy wanted to become a pirate because of one of them, Shanks! Another one of them, Blackbeard! is why Luffy’s brother Ace is currently dead so he has a score to settle with him. He even wants to surpass all 4 of them and achieve his dream, The Pirate King! 

2.)Yonko. When you have shanks who has no devil fruit+a missing limb competing with the other 3 aka Kaido, a man who jumped from sky island emerging with a minor headache and couldn’t be killed by multiple executions. Big Mom a woman who tanked a point blank explosion, her OWN Yonko level attack and a coup de burst to the face all with 0 damage in her weakened state and blackbeard who has 2 devil fruits? The admirals truly stand 0 chance.

3.)Yonko. Old, Sick, Past his prime Whitebeard was playing Tennis with Akainu, straight ragdolling this man, meanwhile Akainu only got 2 decent hits in. But ONLY due to the weakened monster being well....WEAKENED. We all know Whitebeard won that fight EASILY! Now imagine them fighting the other 4 who are easily far above whitebeard at this point!

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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 18, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Yeah...once. Those were dark times





Santoryu said:


> Wait
> 
> Did Turrin actually say Kaidou is weaker than Marco?


He actually said it again in page 1 of this thread. His reasoning is Phoenix>Dragon so Marco>Kaidou.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Couple reasons.
> 
> 1. oda gives the Yonkou more hype and respect then the Admirals. WB was WSM, world ending hype, king of the seas, whitebeards age all that good stuff, Kaidou is WSC, immortal, multiple failed execution attempts, conquered Wano 20 years ago a place that the WG for the last 800 years said fuck no its not worth the trouble, Kid Big Mom without a devil fruit was stated to have Fleet Admiral potential based on her genetics alone, and her empire was strong enough even 25 years ago that Roger would rather avoid her then fight her, Black-beard has two of the most powerful if not the two most powerful devil fruits on the planet, is the MC main antagonist, and became a yonkou in less then 3 years after leaving the WB pirates, Shanks is Shanks don't think i need to go over him dude can walk into the holy land with no consequences VS The Admirals who are stated to be the strongest fighting force of the marines. The same marines that have to work together with hired pirates(Warlords) just to fail at keeping the pirate menace under control . What individual hype do the Admirals have besides being the Marines top dogs? Doflamingo called Green bull and Fujitora monsters thats nice i guess. Akainu got himself a promotion to fleet Admiral so thats good. Fujitora was in dressrosa and he was a afterthought for most of the arc. Fujitora and Green bull duke it out with Sabo and 4 Revo commanders with no indication it was a one sided beat down for the admirals. While Kaidou has a entire army built up to take him down which includes half the supernovas, and the original plan was to have marco and the remnants of White-beards crew help them win. Oda goes out of his way to hype up the Yonkou can't say the same for the Admirals.
> 
> ...


I think the issue is largely inflating the Yonko hype with WBs individual hype or EoS BB hype. Those two are obviously special and are not only above the Admirals but the other Yonko as well.

Looking at the other Yonko. BM hype is that she had the potential to reach FA level; but two of the Admirals Akainu and Aokiji could have held the title; and I think it’s very possible that Kizaru was not in consideration due to a lack of power, but due to his personality (which BM would definitely be disqualified for too). So I don’t see that as beyond any of the Admirals. Like wise all the Admirals did put up a good fight against WB, who BM seemed to think she needed Giants to fight against and have a chance of defeating. Kizaru and Akainu seemed confident they could handle her &/or Kaidou; and she has far worse feats then the Admirals do. Akainu also seems to be an antagonist reserved for beyond BM, whose going down in this arc; and he actually has a confirmed win against another Top Tier Aokiji. 

Speaking just about the Color Trio and BM; of course. I don’t see anything indicating one is well beyond the other except Akainu seems to be beyond BM at this point. So we can start the discussion there at BM vs Color Trio.

But if your just saying overall the Yonko are > Admirals; then sure I would agree with that as the Yonko always seem to have the Worlds Strongest Guy among them; whether this be WB or eventually Teach. Even at their weakest when WB died and Teach first became a Yonko; the Marines lost Aokiji; so I would say that things even out with the Yonko still having a slight edge as Fujitora and Green Bull were also rookies back then as Admirals


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## CaptainCommander (Apr 18, 2020)

1) Yonko. They each have their own arc and other reasons others have listed.

2) Yonko. Whitey has the worse feats since he was nerfed but even on death's door he had all three Admirals gathered for him and that still wasn't enough man power. Lava guy is the only one I give good credit here but ya can't scale everyone to him.

3) Yonko no question.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 18, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I think the issue is largely inflating the Yonko hype with WBs individual hype or EoS BB hype. Those two are obviously special and are not only above the Admirals but the other Yonko as well.



You could make that case but I could also say take out WB/BB for the Yonkou, and take out Akainu/Aokiji for the marines and the situation stays similar. Perhaps even worse as imo all the Admirals are close in strength even the new ones so if daddy Akainu and Uncle Aokiji look good Kizaru at the very least you can argue deserves similar respect. Take Akainu and Aokiji out though and the best you got is Kizaru. Who was paired up 3 times with first mates Rayleigh/Benn beckman/marco all of which who would lose to yonkou.

And good olr Fujitora/Green bull the two new admirals beating Big Mom, Kaidou, or Shanks? Oda has not given them the hype to justify that imo to no fault of Green bulls oda is a dick tease with him. Anyway Fuji and Green Bull failed to shit stomp Sabo and his 4 goons. You gonna tell me that if Shanks and Kaidou were fighting Sabo and his 4 buddy's that Shanks would be shown covered in bandages 1 week later?? No way in hell imo.



> Looking at the other Yonko. BM hype is that she had the potential to reach FA level; but two of the Admirals Akainu and Aokiji could have held the title; and I think it’s very possible that Kizaru was not in consideration due to a lack of power, but due to his personality (which BM would definitely be disqualified for too)


.

That's fair. Although personally I think Fleet Admiral is chosen more based on mindset anyway. Would Sengoku vote for Kizaru if he knew 100 percent that he was the strongest admiral. I doubt it.



> So I don’t see that as beyond any of the Admirals. Like wise all the Admirals did put up a good fight against WB, who BM seemed to think she needed Giants to fight against and have a chance of defeating. Kizaru and Akainu seemed confident they could handle her &/or Kaidou; and she has far worse feats then the Admirals do. Akainu also seems to be an antagonist reserved for beyond BM, whose going down in this arc; and he actually has a confirmed win against another Top Tier Aokiji.



Feat wise the Admirals are superior but they fought in the War of the best so I don't really hold that over the yonkou until they get feats of themselves. Shanks clashed equally with a more stable and no giant stab wound through the chest Whitebeard and when he showed up everyone stopped fighting.

What's there to be scared of though it's just Shanks with no allies outside his core crew? Whitebeard is dead, jozu is out of the count, marco and the other commanders are tired. You got 5 admiral level fighters left with only Akainu being in bad condition. While Shanks only has himself and Ben Beckman to contend with them. Sounds like a good chance to wipe out 2 yonkou crews. Black beard had no problem fighting Garp and Sengoku but the moment Shanks says what's good BB says you know what we can fight later XD.

Anyway enough Shanks wanking but that's the thing would the Admirals get the same respect as he did? If Green Bull shows up with some vice admirals at Wano, are Big mom and kaidou going to shit their pants and be like ok Luffy we will fight you another time we got to run away before green bull fucks us up. Big doubt from me. That being said Green Bull showing up in wano would be cool.



> Speaking just about the Color Trio and BM; of course. I don’t see anything indicating one is well beyond the other except Akainu seems to be beyond BM at this point. So we can start the discussion there at BM vs Color Trio.



I personally put Akainu over BB, Shanks, and Big Mom. But I also think Akainu unlike Shanks/BM has gotten stronger over the last 2 years. For 3 reasons.

1. Had a death battle with his neigh equal Aokiji. Which justifies a increase in strength.

2. He is the newly promoted Fleet Admiral and as such a distinction needs to be put forth compared to him and his peers which is why currently Aokiji is slightly nerfed with his injuries and 2 new admirals who are well new are under his command.

3. He has end game plot significance. If Oda wants Akainu to give PK Luffy or close to PK Luffy a hard time, being weaker then Old Whitebeards just not gonna cut it.

So preskip I would say Kizaru/Aokiji lose to Akainu extreme diff. Currently they lose high diff. Which isn't a big difference but when comparing the top dogs of the verse it does make a difference.


> *But if your just saying overall the Yonko are > Admirals*; then sure I would agree with that as the Yonko always seem to have the Worlds Strongest Guy among them; whether this be WB or eventually Teach. Even at their weakest when WB died and Teach first became a Yonko; the Marines lost Aokiji; so I would say things even out with the Yonko still having a slight edge as Fujitora and Green Bull were also rookies back then as Admirals



That is what I'm saying. To be fair though Green Bull has been ignored by oda so the spectrum can easily change. Fuji is just a disappoint despite the massive potential of his devil fruit.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 18, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Akainu can find OP in a year and Oda outright compared him and Kaido and Kaido is stronger. Your point ?



Oda did no such thing. 

Also being PK means being above everybody. Unless you think Akainu was going to be weaker than Kaido and be PK.


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## Turrin (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You could make that case but I could also say take out WB/BB for the Yonkou, and take out Akainu/Aokiji for the marines and the situation stays similar. Perhaps even worse as imo all the Admirals are close in strength even the new ones so if daddy Akainu and Uncle Aokiji look good Kizaru at the very least you can argue deserves similar respect. Take Akainu and Aokiji out though and the best you got is Kizaru. Who was paired up 3 times with first mates Rayleigh/Benn beckman/marco all of which who would lose to yonkou.
> 
> And good olr Fujitora/Green bull the two new admirals beating Big Mom, Kaidou, or Shanks? Oda has not given them the hype to justify that imo to no fault of Green bulls oda is a dick tease with him. Anyway Fuji and Green Bull failed to shit stomp Sabo and his 4 goons. You gonna tell me that if Shanks and Kaidou were fighting Sabo and his 4 buddy's that Shanks would be shown covered in bandages 1 week later?? No way in hell imo.
> 
> ...


1- I agree with you as a collective Yonko are stronger. I just see it as Top Yonko > Top Admirals > Weaker Yonko >= Weaker Admirals 

2- I think it’s mind-set and strength; I mean an Admiral who has survived long enough to be in consideration for FA is probably going to be stronger then rookie Admirals like Greenbull and Fujitora

3- Color Trio were exhausted while Shanks was fresh. We later see Teach cuck down to a fresh Akainu too. I think more Teach and the others were comfortable fighting the Marines because they were exhausted; but Shanks coming in fresh is something nether side wanted to add to the equation. I’ll also say I believe Shanks is likely one of the stronger Yonko.

4- I don’t think Akainu got any stronger as it’s not like Aokiji was an enemy stronger then him that he needed to train to defeat; it already was implied Akainu had an edge on the other Admirals with him being the last revealed and main adversary for WB during the War of the Best. And we just saw that play out in his duel with Aokiji with him winning extreme diff. Also don’t see how taking a seat which is not as combative as before would make him stronger. He is a major enemy for Luffy but I don’t think he needs to be any stronger then he was at MF to do so; I mean he was shown as a difficult opponent for WB (that WB didn’t fully overcome, he was stronger but he couldn’t actually finish Akainu; and save Ace from him. I think Luffy being put in a similar situation where he goes to war against the Marines and defeats Akainu substantially enough to save say a Sabo; would be him exceeding what WB was capable of, which imo even with his weaknesses was still > the other Yonko.

5- I see Fujitora as much of a disappointment strength wise as BM was in WCI. Fujitora when he comes back will likely be more impressive just like Mom was. Plot held him back at DR; and it’s implied he did beat Sabo, who to me is more powerful then most people give him credit for


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> You could make that case but I could also say take out WB/BB for the Yonkou, and take out Akainu/Aokiji for the marines and the situation stays similar. Perhaps even worse as imo all the Admirals are close in strength even the new ones so if daddy Akainu and Uncle Aokiji look good Kizaru at the very least you can argue deserves similar respect. Take Akainu and Aokiji out though and the best you got is Kizaru. Who was paired up 3 times with first mates Rayleigh/Benn beckman/marco all of which who would lose to yonkou.
> 
> And good olr Fujitora/Green bull the two new admirals beating Big Mom, Kaidou, or Shanks? Oda has not given them the hype to justify that imo to no fault of Green bulls oda is a dick tease with him. Anyway Fuji and Green Bull failed to shit stomp Sabo and his 4 goons. You gonna tell me that if Shanks and Kaidou were fighting Sabo and his 4 buddy's that Shanks would be shown covered in bandages 1 week later?? No way in hell imo.
> 
> ...


Your TLDRs are finally swinging the right way.

Just need to change that nonsense about Akainu being above any Shanks, BB and BM.


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## Dellinger (Apr 18, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Oda did no such thing.
> 
> Also being PK means being above everybody. Unless you think Akainu was going to be weaker than Kaido and be PK.


Oda did such thing, why are you lying ?

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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 18, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Your TLDRs are finally swinging the right way.
> 
> Just need to change that nonsense about Akainu being above any Shanks, BB and BM.



HIGHEST OFFENSIVE DEVIL FRUIT
FLEET ADMIRAL OF THE MARINES
ONLY CONFIRMED FAIR 1V1 VICTORY OVER A TOP TIER
ENDS THE MANGA IN 1 YEAR IF MC
FISTER OF ANUSES

Put some respect on Akainus name

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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 18, 2020)

Kylo Ren said:


> You're putting too much effort lately here bro, so much to prove something, eh?


Nah, I am just having some fun.




Kylo Ren said:


> Your Boy mad as fuck WB didn't pay attention to him lol Akainu himself said so, unlike you're trying to claim in your post. all I need is one picture not an essay.


I don't even stan Akainu. Aokiji is my favourite Admiral

That was before Akainu put a hole in him. After that WB was no longer worth the time. Hence, Akainu sought to kill Luffy and finish off Ace.





Kylo Ren said:


> WB is fuckin monologuing in front of Red Dog lmao.


Akainu has his hands in his pockets when stopping WB.

and was restricting himself in order to preserve the island and the town


That's as casual as you can get.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> HIGHEST OFFENSIVE DEVIL FRUIT


Yet irrelevant to anyone with haki like when Shanks and Vista's swords were undamaged. Works on old men who are on their deathbed though. 


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> FLEET ADMIRAL OF THE MARINES


Yes he is the strongest of the FM level admirals


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ONLY CONFIRMED FAIR 1V1 VICTORY OVER A TOP TIER


I'm sure a FM level fight impresses you, it doesn't impress me. Akainu knew this as he wanted no parts of the highest level of top tier in the form of Shanks. Easy to be brave when you are fighting someone who is basically Teach's Commander atm. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ENDS THE MANGA IN 1 YEAR IF MC


BM could end it in a week if she was MC and we made Lola marry Loki. Shanks has no interest in being PK which is why the manga hasn't ended. 


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> FISTER OF ANUSES


Fister of fodder or deathbed Yonkou.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Put some respect on Akainus name


Put less wank on it pls. He is scared of some samurai that Kaido conquered. He knows how to pick his battles very very well. Almost as well as Mihawk and his Uchiha art of run and postponement.


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## X18999 (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> HIGHEST OFFENSIVE DEVIL FRUIT
> FLEET ADMIRAL OF THE MARINES
> ONLY CONFIRMED FAIR 1V1 VICTORY OVER A TOP TIER
> ENDS THE MANGA IN 1 YEAR IF MC
> ...



Highest *potential* offensive Devil Fruit... fortunately it's not some like Roger using it so some of that potential won't be realized.  It's not like some weakling with the fruit would have the same power with that Akainu has.


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 18, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> HIGHEST OFFENSIVE DEVIL FRUIT
> FLEET ADMIRAL OF THE MARINES
> ONLY CONFIRMED FAIR 1V1 VICTORY OVER A TOP TIER
> ENDS THE MANGA IN 1 YEAR IF MC
> ...


Shits has pants in front of Shanks. 
Takes him 10 days to beat someone he has a DF advantage over
Is afraid of a bunch of fodder samurai
His fruit is one of the highest offensive devil fruits not the absolute best. Enel's fruit is better


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## Gianfi (Apr 18, 2020)

look, Oda thinks Yonko are stronger than Admirals. 75.3% of people in this forum agreed with him according to a 2019 thread. Really, it's time to let go all this fantasy about Admirals=Yonko or even stronger, at this point it's not even funny anymore...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 18, 2020)

Gianfi said:


> look, Oda thinks Yonko are stronger than Admirals. 75.3% of people in this forum agreed with him according to a 2019 thread. Really, it's time to let go all this fantasy about Admirals=Yonko or even stronger, at this point it's not even funny anymore...


if i keep repeating it  it will be true


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## Gianfi (Apr 18, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> if i keep repeating it  it will be true


I respect that lol


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 18, 2020)

X18999 said:


> Highest *potential* offensive Devil Fruit... fortunately it's not some like Roger using it so some of that potential won't be realized.  It's not like some weakling with the fruit would have the same power with that Akainu has.



The notion that Akainu has not mastered his devil fruit is something I won't even humor with a actual discussion. 

Think what you will


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 19, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yet irrelevant to anyone with haki like when Shanks and Vista's swords were undamaged. Works on old men who are on their deathbed though.
> 
> Yes he is the strongest of the FM level admirals
> 
> ...



Shanks stopped a magma fist aimed at coby of course shanks was  going to easily stop it,just like how zoro stopped aokiji's saber aimed at robin.you really expect akainu to use his full power against a marine fodder like coby?

The admirals were not scared of coward handicapped shanks.they still openly attacked law's submarine and your coward handicapped shanks did nothing.why?because he knew he would get fodderized

Also oda stated in an interview that while creating a main protagonist,it is important not to make the protagonist too strong,hence akainu could end one piece in a year.

When Your handicapped Shanks waanted to fight Mihawk,Mihawk refused him stating that he has no interest in fighting a handicapped man.

Shanks had no impressive feats whatsoever and his haki is weak as shit


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 19, 2020)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Shanks stopped a magma fist aimed at coby of course shanks was  going to easily stop it,just like how zoro stopped aokiji's saber aimed at robin.you really expect akainu to use his full power against a marine fodder like coby?
> 
> The admirals were not scared of coward handicapped shanks.they still openly attacked law's submarine and your coward handicapped shanks did nothing.why?because he knew he would get fodderized
> 
> ...


Get off the drugs.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 19, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Get off the drugs.



What I have said is the cold hearted truth which shanks fanboys such as yourself continue to deny.

Shanks hid like a coward when admirals attacked luffy,he was helpless and did nothing.

Sengoku only stopped the war because he has respect for shanks(who is a pirate with honour) and in addition to having some ties with gorosei.the world was literary in chaos when whitebeard died and marines were unable  control the mess ,if they had killed shanks then the situation would have been worse,hence sengoku spared him.

Shanks's haki is also nothing impressive,and Mihawk showed no interest whatsoever in fighting shanks,of course since Mihawk would fodderize that overhyped handicapped clown


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

Yeah, killing 2 yonkos at the same time would have been such a mess for the marines. A nightmare I would say...


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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

What bring down the yonko is really BM and Kaidou, take them away.... and it only gets better for the yonko. 


You have two great characters, from hype, portrayal and exceptional feats for the little they’ve done, then you have two of the worst characters, with all the hype in the world, a complete opposite portrayal and ifffy feats, while the admirals are solid throughout.


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> What bring down the yonko is really BM and Kaidou, take them away.... and it only gets better for the yonko.


Call me back when an admiral toy with a YC2 to the point he needs to play the dead after a single clash , or when an admiral one shot a FM.

This 2 feats are still the best feats shown in the manga for the current top tiers. Oda shit on Kaido and Big mom and make them look dumb but in term of feats they're still at the top.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Call me back when an admiral toy with a YC2 to the point he needs to play the dead after a single clash , or when an admiral one shot a FM.


When did this happen?


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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Call me back when an admiral toy with a YC2 to the point he needs to play the dead after a single clash , or when an admiral one shot a FM.
> 
> This 2 feats are still the best feats shown in the manga for the current top tiers. Oda shit on Kaido and Big mom and make them look dumb but in term of feats they're still at the top.


Show me a panel of a YC2 capturing an admiral first. And there is Jozu if that’s what you mean. 


No they are not. Akainu and WBs feats are still the best feats, Kaidou and Bm got nothing to do with it. 

Admirals scale together, yonko do not.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> When did this happen?


Maru 


MasterBeast said:


> Show me a panel of a YC2 capturing an admiral first


Why would I need to do that ?
Big mom got back her memory and slept. She made it clear she was sleepy the chapter before entering to the prison....
Big mom is dumb and childish. This is how oda portrayed her. She got captured once she fall asleep. Wonder-full , doesn't change that she toyed with Queen without even using her DF and he had to act as if he was KO to ensure she doesn't add him another punch. Jozu faired against Ao kiji until he got distracted.



MasterBeast said:


> No they are not. Akainu and WBs feats are still the best feats, Kaidou and Bm got nothing to do with it.


Akainu and WB feats are endurance (also I said CURRENT top tiers , I don't include the old gen in here).
Akainu did not one shot a FM or deal with him in a minute.



MasterBeast said:


> Admirals scale together, yonko do not.


Actually , there is a good chance that both Akainu  and Aokiji surpassed Kizaru thanks to their 10 days all out fight.


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2020)

If the Admirals really were on par with the Yonko then there wouldn't even be any Yonko. If the Marines are both stronger and more united then they would have taken down the Yonko one by one ages ago.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Maru
> 
> Why would I need to do that ?
> Big mom got back her memory and slept. She made it clear she was sleepy the chapter before entering to the prison....
> ...


Excuses is what I hear, you want something from me but won’t be willing to go first. 
Gled you little cock tease, BM never beat Queen. And then was 1Shotted, Jozu defensive ability should be above both luffy and kats, so that speaks for itself. 

Nope, both attack and endurance feats go to Akainu and WB. There is no one in the series with higher feats then these two.


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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> If the Admirals really were on par with the Yonko then there wouldn't even be any Yonko. If the Marines are both stronger and more united then they would have taken down the Yonko one by one ages ago.


The yonko aren’t the only people in the world, there are still Vet pirates, shichibukai, WG/ SN and RA, that’s trying to dethrone the WG/ marines, so no... that’s stupid excuse.


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Gled you little cock tease, BM never beat Queen


I didn't say she beat him. I said she toyed with him. Dude was there on the ground acting like he was dead. Why ? Cause the gap between them was huge enough to realize he don't stand a chance and needed to distract her to reach his goal.
I think the manga couldn't be more clear about it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Stay mad 





MasterBeast said:


> And then was 1Shotted


She wasn't. She fell asleep after getting her memory back. You could even see her speaking normally before passing out.
The chapter before introduced her feeling sleepless. That's how it is.


MasterBeast said:


> Jozu defensive ability should be above both luffy and kats, so that speaks for itself.



And speed too since he fared against Kiji long enough. He give me the feeling that Kiji would need a mid diff against him. Queen would give big mom like what ? Low diff ???



MasterBeast said:


> Nope, both attack and endurance feats go to Akainu and WB. There is no one in the series with higher feats then these two.


Tell me more of those *feats.*
(And again , I said CURRENT top tiers , I'm not counting the Old gen).


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> The yonko aren’t the only people in the world, there are still Vet pirates, shichibukai, WG/ SN and RA, that’s trying to dethrone the WG/ marines, so no... that’s stupid excuse.



There are other people in the world but aside from the revolution army there are none more dangerous. Besides the Paramount war shows that the marines aren't above gathering every single asset they have to fight a yonko no matter what the rest of the world is doing

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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> There are other people in the world but aside from the revolution army there are none more dangerous. Besides the Paramount war shows that the marines aren't above gathering every single asset they have to fight a yonko no matter what the rest of the world is doing


Lol, there are more then enough dangerous people outside the yonko mate, Akainu rather deal with the shichibukai then BM and Kaidous alliance. 

And not really, that’s quite far from what you’re suggesting, they gather an impressive force (not everything they had) to DEFEND their HQ, you’re suggesting that they go do the attacking, which is quite different then just defending their base.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Maru








Gledinos said:


> She got captured once she fall asleep.


The sound effect of Queen smashing Linlin's head is the same as Zoro nearly breaking Miss Monday's skull in two.
メキメキ - cracking

*Spoiler*: __ 







Oda uses that sfx for cracking as indicated above.

Cherry on top, in the official translation it is translated exactly like the situation with Sanji

*Spoiler*: __ 








Before someone makes a frivolous comment, no Oda doesn't always show cracked bones.

*Spoiler*: __ 








As you can see above, Sanji is walking with broken bones, whilst Linlin is out.

Linlin was later seen eating

which helped her restore her health and bones, like Luffy and Brooke did



And FS-less Boundman is not FM level, heck even FS Luffy gets mauled badly by Dogtooth. Nevertheless, Kaido took advantage of the fact that Luffy was shaken up mentally, and heavily exhausted

and used haki and a named attack to hit Lulffy in an unprotected and very sensitive area.

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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> I didn't say she beat him. I said she toyed with him. Dude was there on the ground acting like he was dead. Why ? Cause the gap between them was huge enough to realize he don't stand a chance and needed to distract her to reach his goal.
> I think the manga couldn't be more clear about it.
> 
> 
> ...


Or he outsmarted her, which he did lol, Queen wasn’t scared of BM and got the job done, the same can’t be said with an admiral, because it would never happen. 

She got her memories back because of how hard he hit her...

What we just making things up? The C3 HAD to hold back, same as WB , Garp and Sengou, not destroy the whole island. Aokiji would low diff if not completely stomp Jozu, had it been a normal 1v1. 

There is nothing to add, since you personally want to ignore the old gen... that’s puts... Akainu at the top.


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> The sound effect of Queen smashing Linlin's head is the same as Zoro nearly breaking Miss Monday's skull in two.
> メキメキ - cracking


Irrelevant ? How many people will get a little crack on their head if a giant dinosaur jumped over their head ???



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Linlin was later seen eating


She was hungry.


Light D Lamperouge said:


> And FS-less *Boundman is not FM level, heck even FS Luffy gets mauled badly by Dogtooth.* *Nevertheless, Kaido took advantage of the fact that Luffy was shaken up mentally,* and heavily exhausted



Boundman is not weaker than snakeman. I agree with the CoC part , but luffy wasn't exhausted.


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Or he outsmarted her, which he did lol, Queen wasn’t scared of BM and got the job done, the same can’t be said with an admiral, because it would never happen


Dude this is almost as bad as Erkan saying Black beard wasn't scared of White beard when he begged him for mercy he was acting ... Queen did his best telling him men to make sure she doesn't wake up , he was scared. We're not reading the same manga if you think he wasn't scared of her. Look just how he reacted when she started talking after the hit he gave her.
If he wasn't afraid of her he wouldn't act like he was dead. He would face her till exhaustion. A little 2 minute clash made him realise she was way above him and acted like bitch. There isn't too much to argue about that. The whole fight was a one sided rape 


MasterBeast said:


> She got her memories back because of how hard he hit her...


Thanks for the info sherlock.
Point is , she fall asleep cause she felt was sleepless. Previous chapter proves it. She didn't immediately faint , she just fell asleep. You can see her sneezing and smiling.* That's not someone who got knocked out.
*
See the face of luffy once he got one shoted ? See big mom face when she fell asleep ? See the difference ?



MasterBeast said:


> What we just making things up? The C3 HAD to hold back, same as WB , Garp and Sengou, not destroy the whole island. Aokiji would low diff if not completely stomp Jozu, had it been a normal 1v1.


Of course they had to hold back. But in big mom , and also kaido case , it's not that they didn't not hold back, they didn't even go all out. Big mom didn't even use her Devil fruit, kaido just used one swing on luffy and that's it.
What Am I making up exactly ? 



MasterBeast said:


> There is nothing to add, since you personally want to ignore the old gen... that’s puts... Akainu at the top.


No.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Irrelevant ? How many people will get a little crack on their head if a giant dinosaur jumped over their head ???


It's not irrelevant. I am showing you that the so called Godlike durability was breached by a high tier. 




Gledinos said:


> She was hungry.


What's the point here? When isn't she hungry? 
The point was that that healed her. 




Gledinos said:


> Boundman is not weaker than snakeman. I agree with the CoC part , but luffy wasn't exhausted.


Neither Boundman nor Snakeman are FM level, even with infrequent FS, Dogtooth and any other FM wash him, and I think you mean COO. 
Luffy was panting and huffing, you can see that in the panels I posted.

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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> It's not irrelevant. I am showing you that the so called Godlike durability was breached by a high tier.


Barely .


Light D Lamperouge said:


> What's the point here? When isn't she hungry?
> The point was that that healed her.


Head canon.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Neither Boundman nor Snakeman are FM level, even with infrequent FS, Dogtooth and any other FM wash him, and I think you mean COO.
> Luffy was panting and huffing, you can see that in the panels I posted.



Luffy surpassed katakuri.
Now that he unlocked future CoO and defeated him he is above him.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Barely .


Enough to crack her head, and flush down the impenetrable defense crap down the toilet.




Gledinos said:


> Head canon.


I showed you panels.




Gledinos said:


> Luffy surpassed katakuri.


When he acquired advanced COA before that no.




Gledinos said:


> Now that he unlocked future CoO and defeated him he is above him.


No.

Dogtooth utterly dominated g2/g3 Lulffy




If it weren't for the plot armor here, Lulffy would have died then and there. Dogtooth should have finished him then.



Dogtooth toyed with Boundman the moment he got his composure back.



No PIS involved so forget about Dogtooth stabbing himself, or suddenly letting go of Mogura.

He won't be doing this. He won't allow Lul;ffy to power up like he did earlier, he won't allow Lulffy to just lay down on the floor.



It took Dogtooth a few seconds to get adjusted to snakeman and counter it



Dogtooth then dances around Snakeman attacks, manages to hit Ruffy and put him down first



Even with FS, Lulffy loses against Dogtooth.
Dogtotoh would win around mid diff more or less, wouldn't be that difficult of a fight for him thanks to the combination of Lulffy having no consistent answer to awakening and his G4 having a time limit which would be reached well before Dogtooth's FS starts slowing down. This isn't anywhere close to being an extreme diff fight without any interference from merienda, Brulee, and Flambe, those 3 things were/are much bigger factors than any upgrades Lulffy got during the battle, they far outweigh anything Lulffy himself can produce here, there is no outcome where he can pull this off without them.

It basically went from being a low (mid) diff fight in a 1v1 to a mid(high) diff fight thanks to Lulffy being able to dodge/counter even better now, prolonging his eventual demise.

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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Dude this is almost as bad as Erkan saying Black beard wasn't scared of White beard when he begged him for mercy he was acting ...
> If he wasn't afraid of her he wouldn't act like he was dead. He would face her till exhaustion. A little 2 minute clash made him realise she was way above him and acted like bitch. There isn't too much to argue about that. The whole fight was a one sided rape
> 
> Thanks for the info sherlock.
> ...


Semantics, Queen knows BM... and he did what needed to be done, and look at the end result. 

So, what you plan to tell me is that... Queen knocked Bm back to her senses and then, BM thought you know what even though Queen a commander of the beast pirates (who BM clearly knows) is right in front of her, and luffy who she chased down from WCI... she thought, let me take a nap instead? Is that what you want me to believe? Yeah mate, and 2+2 is 5. 

Well, there is a key difference and that’s their surroundings, Admirals had to intentionally hold back their fire power but you want them to achieve the same feats as a Kaidou would have no problem destroying the island... with his men on it. There’s been multiple thread salready and all Admirals would 1HKO luffy had they landed an attack, Akainu would have killed him. I think the thread made it clear that almost all top tiers could achieve the same thing IF they landed their attack as well. 

No, what? Are you trying to claim that Bm and Kaidou have better attack power or endurance then Akainu?


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Semantics, Queen knows BM... and he did what needed to be done, and look at the end result.



Queen tried to attack big mom at first. Clearly he had no idea how strong she was.



MasterBeast said:


> So, what you plan to tell me is that... Queen knocked Bm back to her senses and then, BM thought you know what even though Queen a commander of the beast pirates (who BM clearly knows) is right in front of her, and luffy who she chased down from WCI... she thought, let me take a nap instead? Is that what you want me to believe? Yeah mate, and 2+2 is 5.



Nope. She felt sleepy multiple chapters ago. So she just slept after getting back her memory. Big mom is char I don't take too much seriously, she a gag child with a lot of power. Her exhaustion won over her after taking the hit.


MasterBeast said:


> Well, there is a key difference and that’s their surroundings, Admirals had to intentionally hold back their fire power but you want them to achieve the same feats as a Kaidou would have no problem destroying the island... with his men on it. There’s been multiple thread salready and all Admirals would 1HKO luffy had they landed an attack, Akainu would have killed him. I think the thread made it clear that almost all top tiers could achieve the same thing IF they landed their attack as well.


Point is that Kaido didn't even go all out. Doesn't matter if Aokiji had to not go all out because neither Big mom nor kaido did.


MasterBeast said:


> No, what? Are you trying to claim that Bm and Kaidou have better attack power or endurance then Akainu?


More like you are claiming he have a better attack and power. You didn't show me anything going that way this way except saying his DF got the highest offence (which is not true , databook saying ONE of the highest offence).


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Enough to crack her head, and flush down the impenetrable defense crap down the toilet.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Luffy endurance is still far above katakuri , and he got speed and CoC enough to face him. Still Kaido one shoted that. That's the whole point.


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## Beast (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Queen tried to attack big mom at first. Clearly he had no idea how strong she was.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He did, and he still went there, they Both know each other. 

Because of the hit? She clearly wasn’t back to her full senses as I’ve said, Queen put her to sleep bruh, Oda tried to show us differently but he isn’t the smartest man in the world and he does make mistakes and this is one of them. The headbut is the reason BM was put to sleep. 

Kaidou didn’t hold back either, neither went all out but the admirals HAD to be extra wary, that is the point. 


Akainu matched WBs gura, who is current highest attack power right now, he also tanked them so that speaks for his endurance.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> That's the whole point.


The whole point was  that Kaido did not one shot an FM level character, and will not be able to do so. Dogtooth would phase around that, Marco would tank it, and I am pretty certain that King would be able to either tank it or avoid it, Kaido is not one shooting his right hand man. 

FS less G4 is not FM, infrequent FS g4 is also not FM level.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

I feel that judging by the amount of headcanon in this thread the conclusion will be that Kaido and BM actually lost to Luffy and Queen. It's coming folks, just wait a little more.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Apr 19, 2020)

Ruthless Tsuchikage said:


> If the Admirals really were on par with the Yonko then there wouldn't even be any Yonko. If the Marines are both stronger and more united then they would have *taken down the Yonko one by on*e ages ago.


battledome mindset logic
has nothing to do with manga

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

Of course the logic of admirals being stronger than yonko is false. There would be no fight for One piece if it was so. It would mean a team of 2 admirals would be enough to wipe a yonko crew. 
The navy thought they also needed the Shicibukai against what they thought it was an old, but full of life WB. What they got was a dying old man with myocardial infarction and diarrhea. Even then, Akainu still woke up 50 meters below Marineford while the other admirals were busy with some commanders.
If Yonko are 100, to me admirals would be somewhere between 88-94 ( something like that) depending on which one we are talking

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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

The plan was for the warlords to fight the WBP. The Warlords were located at the front ready to engage the WBP. They were going to be the force attacking them.


Doflamingo even hyped up the war as such.


Admirals were tasked with protecting the execution platform.

The plan was for the Admirals to guard the platform while the Warlords engage the WBP in battle. Of course that changed since the Warlords were dicking around.

Akainu even comments on it.


The Navy gathered all of them to ensure a clear victory with the fewest possible losses, and the least damage possible. They didn't need all of them, and we even saw that they were restricted due to home turf, and due to the warlords not caring about it. Later factors, such as the Impel Down prisoners joining, influenced it as well. All in all, the preparations from the Navy were excessive, as any organization on its home turf would do, to cut back on the losses and secure a victory.

The Admirals were restricted due to the battle taking place in MF, aka their home turf. Akainu was trying to preserve the island and the town.

He mentions it twice.


This is what happens when unrestricted Admirals can.

All the Admirals were fighting WB perfectly fine.

Akainu melted half of his face even though he was attacked from 

And yet he could still continue, as evident 

What's also interesting to note is that he first thing Akainu did was build a tunnel underground to avoid unnecessary battles, and went right back to chasing Ruffy. Whitebeard was literally not even the second thing on Akainu's mind. He was an annoyance just like everyone else, keeping him from getting to Ruffy.  Akainu didn't have WB on his mind, he was busy trying to exterminate the two future threats, Ruffy and Ace.

Akainu's sole focus was on getting rid of the , WB was just an annoyance, like anyone else, in his way to Ruffy and Ace.

Aokiji morphed around WB's attack, and was preparing an attack from close distance that had to be .

WB tried to prevent Kizaru from attacking Ruffy, with Kizaru not even knowing WB was there, and yet WB did nothing to Kizaru. Kizaru then pinned his bisento down, using one leg, and 

None of them had a problem with WB in duels. The war when started was never debatable. The outcome of the war was never questionable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

So they all had a job to do. They would've been idiots if they hadn't done that.
When 2 admirals go at each other for 10 days, best they can do is change the face of an island. WB is hyped to destroy the world.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 19, 2020)

Just imagine if King sank a marine ship carrying an Admiral or Queen knocked out an Admiral. 

YonkoSet would use those feat to downplay Admirals to high heaven.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Just imagine if King sank a marine ship carrying an Admiral or Queen knocked out an Admiral.
> 
> YonkoSet would use those feat to downplay Admirals to high heaven.


Not really, that is actually one of the main reasons why I do not like ship fights in OP. People can't go all out. It is boring af.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Call me back when an admiral toy with a YC2 to the point he needs to play the dead after a single clash , or when an admiral one shot a FM.
> 
> This 2 feats are still the best feats shown in the manga for the current top tiers. Oda shit on Kaido and Big mom and make them look dumb but in term of feats they're still at the top.




Call me when a YC captures an Admiral  

Call me when a YFM defeats a whole Admiral crew


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Just imagine if King sank a marine ship carrying an Admiral or Queen knocked out an Admiral.
> 
> YonkoSet would use those feat to downplay Admirals to high heaven.


That's not even the worst of it. Imagine if this happened to an Admiral 


Linlin needs her full power to fight against Brook, and in the process causes widespread destruction and wonders why Brook is still up after taking many attacks

Brags about how her weapons are invincible only for them to be injured by Brook

Praises Brook for putting up quite a good fight

Gets utterly humiliated by the SHC

*Spoiler*: __ 












Gets humiliated by YCs

*Spoiler*: __ 








Gets dodged by an  old exhausted shrank heavily beaten up old man, potentially on the verge of death, from point blank range

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 4


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

Just imagine if Kaido was Huffing after fighting a bandaged G3 Luffy like angry Fujitora did. Not to mention not even hurting him with a named attack that connected. Jeesh...


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## Ruthless Tsuchikage (Apr 19, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> battledome mindset logic
> has nothing to do with manga



In other words battle dome logic is deeply flawed.


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## Yuji (Apr 19, 2020)

Are people just trolling for attention with these arguments like ''queen knocked out big mom'' & ''strawhats utterly humiliated big mom'' or is this the level of serious debate that's in this community now?

Reminds me of Orojackson.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Duhul10 (Apr 19, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Are people just trolling for attention with these arguments like ''queen knocked out big mom'' & ''strawhats utterly humiliated big mom'' or is this the level of serious debate that's in this community now?
> 
> Reminds me of Orojackson.


It's called despair if you ask me.


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## Gledania (Apr 19, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> That is what I'm saying. To be fair though Green Bull has been ignored by oda so the spectrum can easily change. Fuji is just a disappoint despite the massive potential of his devil fruit.



Why did you even add this fish in here ???


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 19, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Why did you even add this fish in here ???


Obviously Kinjin adds the pictures Glen


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## CaptainCommander (Apr 19, 2020)

Yuji said:


> Are people just trolling for attention with these arguments like ''queen knocked out big mom'' & ''strawhats utterly humiliated big mom'' or is this the level of serious debate that's in this community now?
> 
> Reminds me of Orojackson.





Duhul10 said:


> It's called despair if you ask me.



I mean why can't people just accept Queen and the Strawhats are underrated?


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## Gledania (Apr 20, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Get off the drugs.



Yeah but why the fish ?


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## Kinjin (Apr 20, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Yeah but why the fish ?


A whale is not a fish


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 20, 2020)

Gledinos said:


> Yeah but why the fish ?


I'm a shanks fan why wouldn't I want a fish in my post?


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Kinjin said:


> A whale is not a fish



As stated by the bible, a book that has been translated into way more than 500 languages (with the new testament far above 2000) and therefore the most credible source for humankind, a whale is a fish and you doubting this statement makes you a sinner.


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> *Admirals *
> 
> Akainu
> Aokiji
> ...



1. Yonkou
2. Admirals (C3).  Fujitora got shook up from fighting sabo and co with another admiral as backup. 
3. Yonkou's will force one on one matchups.  Admirals can't break away from their respective counterparts,  Fujitora is the weak link with the admirals Any yonkou takes him out with gas in the tank then it's four yonkou vs three admirals.  Yeah they get fucked.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> 1. Yonkou
> 2. Admirals (C3).  Fujitora got shook up from fighting sabo and co with another admiral as backup.
> 3. Yonkou's will force one on one matchups.  Admirals can't break away from their respective counterparts,  Fujitora is the weak link with the admirals Any yonkou takes him out with gas in the tank then it's four yonkou vs three admirals.  Yeah they get fucked.



2. Screens please? Otherwise this is just an assumption based on nonexisting off-panel feats.
3. One on One matchups had Admirals keeping up just fine with the strongest Yonkou WB to the point of Marco and Jozu interferring when Kizaru, Aokiji, Akainu and Mihawk were going for or fighting WB.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blade (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> *Admirals *
> 
> Akainu
> Aokiji
> ...




the true answer is only one though



































all of them are weaker than eos zoro

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> 2. Screens please? Otherwise this is just an assumption based on nonexisting off-panel feats.
> 3. One on One matchups had Admirals keeping up just fine with the strongest Yonkou WB to the point of Marco and Jozu interferring when Kizaru, Aokiji, Akainu and Mihawk were going for or fighting WB.



2.Screens of what exactly?  That Fujitora isn't as strong as  the Original C3?
3. Yeah  because they didn't get owned or damaged  in the 2 minutes they were fighting him for. 
     What the......Mihawk?


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> 2.Screens of what exactly?  That Fujitora isn't as strong as  the Original C3?
> 3. Yeah  because they didn't get owned or damaged  in the 2 minutes they were fighting him for.
> What the......Mihawk?



2. Of Sabo harming Fujitora with Green Bull as back up. Don't play dumb.
3. They fought WB equally and Sakazuki did it even for most of the time, matching WB blow for blow. Which 2 minutes they constantly fought on the battlefield with WB never having the upper hand against them. Mihawk was portrayed along the Admirals and Commanders interfering.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> 2. Of Sabo harming Fujitora with Green Bull as back up. Don't play dumb.
> 3. They fought WB equally and Sakazuki did it even for most of the time, matching WB blow for blow. Which 2 minutes they constantly fought on the battlefield with WB never having the upper hand against them. Mihawk was portrayed along the Admirals and Commanders interfering.



2. I'm not playing dumb, I 'm trying to understand if you read something differently than myself.
Chapter 925,  Blackbeard specially said *Revo commanders vs Marine Admirals*. *Admirals ,  *plural he mentioned both their names so we know it's Fujtiora and Ryogoku the new ones specially .  and we saw the silhouettes.  A week after that we saw fujitora with a full head wrap bandages on his head. Which means he was significantly hurt.  So against two admirals a handful of revo commanders were able to do damage to Fujitora that lasted a week. Akainu got two serious attacks from WB and we saw him with bonney like the man wasn't in a  life or death fight.

I do not see them (revo commanders)  pulling that shit off with the any of the two combinations of Akainu , Kiji and Kizaru so i believe they Fujitora and Green Bull  fall in that portrayal.

3.  I honestly don't want to go back into  marine ford discussions Wiggan.  I'm tired of them.  There's nothing different than what I'm going to say I'm going top be bringing up vista again and the annoying cycle continues. Feel free to consider my concession on that.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 20, 2020)

WB with myocardial infarction,who got stabbed by a fodder and out of breath, called out numerous times for his disappointing form ---> the strongest yonko 


Even that guy made Akainu leave the manga for 2 chapters


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## Red Admiral (Apr 20, 2020)

it's been a while ... so for sake of old time ... Yonko > Admirals by ANY factor


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> 1. Yonkou
> 2. Admirals (C3).  Fujitora got shook up from fighting sabo and co with another admiral as backup.
> 3. Yonkou's will force one on one matchups.  Admirals can't break away from their respective counterparts,  Fujitora is the weak link with the admirals Any yonkou takes him out with gas in the tank then it's four yonkou vs three admirals.  Yeah they get fucked.


Big Mom is my favorite Yonko; but I have to say her portrayal is not any better then Fujitora. Both have insane high end feats and hax DF; but then also have low end feats


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## Sherlōck (Apr 20, 2020)

>> Fujitora 

>> Low End Feats

Fujitora has the third highest DC feat in OP. Meme's Ikoku on the other hand was weaker than Zoro's DR slash .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> >> Fujitora
> 
> >> Low End Feats
> 
> Fujitora has the third highest DC feat in OP. Meme's Ikoku on the other hand was weaker than Zoro's DR slash .


What about Fujitora spitting his lungs out after fighting G3 bandaged Luffy and not managing to hurt him with a named attack. Isn't that a low end feat ?


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## Turrin (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> >> Fujitora
> 
> >> Low End Feats
> 
> Fujitora has the third highest DC feat in OP. Meme's Ikoku on the other hand was weaker than Zoro's DR slash .


I said he has high end and low end feats. Both


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## Sherlōck (Apr 20, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> not managing to hurt him with a named attack. Isn't that a low end feat ?



It's not. 

But it’s a blunt force attack and we know Luffy is immune against blunt force attack.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> It's not.
> 
> But it’s a blunt force attack and we know Luffy is immune against blunt force attack.


tell that to Kaido


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## Sherlōck (Apr 20, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> tell that to Kaido



If you think Kaido hurt Luffy without haki then I have nothing to say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> If you think Kaido hurt Luffy without haki then I have nothing to say.


he did without haki. That was a thunder attack


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## Duhul10 (Apr 20, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> If you think Kaido hurt Luffy without haki then I have nothing to say.


Fujitora hit Luffy with a *sword  ( a cut therefore )*, it being a named gravity fruit attack, while he was enraged. You do have nothing to say.
This aside from the fact that there is no proof Kaido used Haki, not that it would matter when in regards to Fujitora.

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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> 2. I'm not playing dumb, I 'm trying to understand if you read something differently than myself.
> Chapter 925,  Blackbeard specially said *Revo commanders vs Marine Admirals*. *Admirals ,  *plural he mentioned both their names so we know it's Fujtiora and Ryogoku the new ones specially .  and we saw the silhouettes.  A week after that we saw fujitora with a full head wrap bandages on his head. Which means he was significantly hurt.  So against two admirals a handful of revo commanders were able to do damage to Fujitora that lasted a week. Akainu got two serious attacks from WB and we saw him with bonney like the man wasn't in a  life or death fight.
> 
> I do not see them (revo commanders)  pulling that shit off with the any of the two combinations of Akainu , Kiji and Kizaru so i believe they Fujitora and Green Bull  fall in that portrayal.
> ...



Yes iam aware there are those words written and the shilhouettes. Are you aware it was all off-panel and there was a full week during the event of Marines escorting the royalties worldwide? So i'd like to see how Sabo injured Fujitora because as far as i know we know nothing of what exactly happened there. We can only assume and given that fact there is also news spread that Sabo is dead? Did you forget that for a moment? Ofc iam not too stupid to believe he was murdered in that incident because we know shit about the incident. So if you claim it was Sabo who hurt Fujitora I'd like to see more evidence.

3. If you don't want to go back to MF why you bring it up especially if you fail to refute Admirals fighting without problems against WB even gaining the upper hand. You keep spreading lies about this part and i'll keep calling you out on that.

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## Dellinger (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Yes iam aware there are those words written and the shilhouettes. Are you aware it was all off-panel and there was a full week during the event of Marines escorting the royalties worldwide? So i'd like to see how Sabo injured Fujitora because as far as i know we know nothing of what exactly happened there. We can only assume and given that fact there is also news spread that Sabo is dead? Did you forget that for a moment? Ofc iam not too stupid to believe he was murdered in that incident because we know shit about the incident. So if you claim it was Sabo who hurt Fujitora I'd like to see more evidence.
> 
> 3. If you don't want to go back to MF why you bring it up especially if you fail to refute Admirals fighting without problems against WB even gaining the upper hand. You keep spreading lies about this part and i'll keep calling you out on that.



Did Fujitora hurt himself then ?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 20, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Did Fujitora hurt himself then ?


that blind man despair has finally reached him


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Yes iam aware there are those words written and the shilhouettes. Are you aware it was all off-panel and there was a full week during the event of Marines escorting the royalties worldwide? So i'd like to see how Sabo injured Fujitora because as far as i know we know nothing of what exactly happened there. We can only assume and given that fact there is also news spread that Sabo is dead? Did you forget that for a moment? Ofc iam not too stupid to believe he was murdered in that incident because we know shit about the incident. So if you claim it was Sabo who hurt Fujitora I'd like to see more evidence.




Akainu vs Kiji was also an off panel battle, Jinbei spoke of it, so we know the aftermath. 
Revo vs Admirals was an off panel battle, Blackbeard spoke of it, so we know the aftermath.

It is the same fucking thing.

The argument here is not about sabo's fate,  *it was that two admirals fought revo commanders  and  we saw one got injured.  *
Sabo's fate has nothing to do with that fact, The bandage around fujitora's head is clearly in relation to that event, 




> 3. If you don't want to go back to MF why you bring it up especially if you fail to refute Admirals fighting without problems against WB even gaining the upper hand. You keep spreading lies about this part and i'll keep calling you out on that.





3. Okay fuck it, Kiji  attempt to freeze him  failed, a failed stab came  from whitebeard  which Kiji avoided somehow, then  jozu interrupted, That was the entirety of the fight  That is your proof of Aokiji holding his own , not even one minute,  

NONE of them engaged in CQC with the man,The actual thing Akainu and Kiji did was neutralize his POWERS?  You know who also did that  BLACKBEARD, is Blackbeard any thing to WB, No.,   Mihawk was being checked by vista, after his attack on WB was blocked by Jozu so he isn't a plus to  the argument.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Akainu vs Kiji was also an off panel battle, Jinbei spoke of it, so we know the aftermath.
> Revo vs Admirals was an off panel battle, Blackbeard spoke of it, so we know the aftermath.



Akainu Vs Aokiji was on a deserted island, a one on one specifically selected for no one to be hurt and no one interfering. We know exactly what was planned to do there, they battled for the position of the Fleet Admiral.

Revo Commanders Vs Admirals with hundreds of other characters around what we know nothing of. Just that it was a clash, we don't even have the results.



Canute87 said:


> It is the same fucking thing.



It's not.



Canute87 said:


> The argument here is not about sabo's fate,  *it was that two admirals fought revo commanders  and  we saw one got injured.  *
> Sabo's fate has nothing to do with that fact, The bandage around fujitora's head is clearly in relation to that event,



We haven't seen Sabo since the incident and it streets talk is about him dying but let's disregard it but connect Fujitoras bandage to the clash instead. 




Canute87 said:


> 3. Okay fuck it, Kiji  attempt to freeze him  failed, a failed stab came  from whitebeard  which Kiji avoided somehow, then  jozu interrupted, That was the entirety of the fight  That is your proof of Aokiji holding his own , not even one minute,
> 
> NONE of them engaged in CQC with the man,The actual thing Akainu and Kiji did was neutralize his POWERS?  You know who also did that  BLACKBEARD, is Blackbeard any thing to WB, No.,   Mihawk was being checked by vista, after his attack on WB was blocked by Jozu so he isn't a plus to  the argument.




*Spoiler*: __ 




















I don't need to throw in Mihawk as the Admirals have enough feats on their own to match WB throughout the war without losing ground, he just belonged to the group that been stalled for time else WB wouldn't get anywhere in the war.

You being upset ain't impressing anyone here. You still fail to dispute that Admirals were losing to WB where most of the time he was the punching bag.




Dellinger said:


> Did Fujitora hurt himself then ?



I doubt that but I don't see panels of Sabo doing it, if you have them please share with the rest of us.

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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> Akainu Vs Aokiji was on a deserted island, a one on one specifically selected for no one to be hurt and no one interfering. We know exactly what was planned to do there, they battled for the position of the Fleet Admiral.
> 
> Revo Commanders Vs Admirals with hundreds of other characters around what we know nothing of. Just that it was a clash, we don't even have the results.





> It's not.



The purpose / outcome of the battle is not what is being discussed,  what is being discussed is one specific portion of what happened,

The comparison being made is that two opponents of near equal status left grave injuries on each other.

Blackbeard mentioned who specifically the opponents were at point of engagement ,Revo's vs admirals.  Those were the combatants.
Silhouette and everything reveals that.




> We haven't seen Sabo since the incident and it streets talk is about him dying but let's disregard it but connect Fujitoras bandage to the clash instead.



How does the rumors of sabo's demise disregards  Fujtiora getting injured?




> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



There's nothing to throw Mihawk in because one of the WB commanders had him at bay.




> You being upset ain't impressing anyone here. You still fail to dispute that Admirals were losing to WB where most of the time he was the punching bag.



I never said they were losing, I said didn't fight long enough to draw any conclusions. You showing admirals at random points in a fight for a few minutes at best is not conclusive to anything,  When people are fighting for hours and days. 

There is a huge gap between a stomp and an extreme difficult fight.

It's like you  watch a football match and believe two teams are equal because one team didn't score on them within the first few minutes of a 90 minute game. None of the admirals fought WB consistently for an extended period of time....Well  I won't argue with Akainu , He stayed away from WB long enough for a random heart attack to get a hit on him. 



> I doubt that but I don't see panels of Sabo doing it, if you have them please share with the rest of us.



I see no reason why Fujtiroa bandage isn't related to the event we know he's apart of.  What does it matter that it was sabo specifically who did it? It could have been any of the other revo commanders, who out of them who did it is not important.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 20, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> *The purpose / outcome of the battle is not what is being discussed,*  what is being discussed is one specific portion of what happened,
> 
> The comparison being made is that two opponents of near equal status left grave injuries on each other.
> 
> ...



I thought it was since the outcome is supposed to be the bandage on Fujitoras head.

Why wouldn't the silhouette then reveal Sabo knocking Fujis head in with his pipe too?




Canute87 said:


> How does the rumors of sabo's demise disregards  Fujtiora getting injured?



How does the rumor of Sabo injuring Fujitora discredits the Admiral if there is no proof Sabo did it especially if we know nothing about how the event unfolded and what happened in the week where Marines were escorting royalties before we saw Fujitora again? 




Canute87 said:


> There's nothing to throw Mihawk in because one of the WB commanders had him at bay.



And the Admirals had WB at bay who needed his Commanders to stall them because on his own he couldn't get past them.




Canute87 said:


> I never said they were losing, I said didn't fight long enough to draw any conclusions. *You showing admirals at random points in a fight for a few minutes at best is not conclusive to anything,  When people are fighting for hours and days.*





> _*"Fujitora is the weak link with the admirals Any yonkou takes him out with gas in the tank then it's four yonkou vs three admirals".*_




You clearly stated that Fujitora would lose to any Yonkou even thought his portrayal is the same as the other Admirals and just based on the selection of the Admiral title he has to be at the very least comparable to the others which includes Pre TS Akainu. Doflamingo hyped him as a beast/monster despite seeing what the other Admirals are capable of. He isn't any weaker than the C3 and Ryokugyu.

Also the feats the Admirals have at MF
are by far more and better what the Yonko have when battling Whitebeard for territories. The Yonko don't even have panels of silhouettes dedicated to them fighting each other for land.


Admirals can fight WB 1 on 1 without budging as seen on the panels. Not sure what your argument from some real life sport is vouching for.



Canute87 said:


> I see no reason why Fujtiroa bandage isn't related to the event we know he's apart of.  What does it matter that it was sabo specifically who did it? It could have been any of the other revo commanders, who out of them who did it is not important.



And I see no reason why I should assume it's related to Sabo only because he participated in the same event as Fujitora.

It could've been whatever else because we have zero info on went down off-panel.


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## Canute87 (Apr 20, 2020)

TheWiggian said:


> I thought it was since the outcome is supposed to be the bandage on Fujitoras head.
> 
> Why wouldn't the silhouette then reveal Sabo knocking Fujis head in with his pipe too?



It's the start of  a battle, did you see Kiji with one foot on the ground with akainu over him?  No we saw them in regular battle stance.




> How does the rumor of Sabo injuring Fujitora discredits the Admiral if there is no proof Sabo did it especially if we know nothing about how the event unfolded and what happened in the week where Marines were escorting royalties before we saw Fujitora again?



The rumor isn't Sabo hurting the admiral, The rumor is what happened to sabo after than fight.  He's escorting royalties of the same island he fought the revo's.  So that's where he's coming from.




> And the Admirals had WB at bay who needed his Commanders to stall them because on his own he couldn't get past them.



Would have taken time, WB was too much of a distance away and it would have taken up energy he couldn't spare.  Remember they all assisted because they knew of his condition,




> You clearly stated that Fujitora would lose to any Yonkou even thought his portrayal is the same as the other Admirals and just based on the selection of the Admiral title he has to be at the very least comparable to the others which includes Pre TS Akainu. Doflamingo hyped him as a beast/monster despite seeing what the other Admirals are capable of. He isn't any weaker than the C3 and Ryokugyu.



There are still levels to being beatss. Flamingo isn't even top yonkou commander level so everybody significantly stronger than him will look that way.  Just because Fujtiora is weaker than Kiji Akainu and Kizaru (current viewpoint) doesn't mean he isn't leagues above flamingo, Flamingo will also call Kaidou a Monster, But Big Mom did too, so you see relativity has some value here.



> Also the feats the Admirals have at MF
> are by far more and better what the Yonko have when battling Whitebeard for territories. The Yonko don't even have panels of silhouettes dedicated to them fighting each other for land.



I doubt they fought much as yonkou,  Shanks never met whitebeard until the epic clash.





> Admirals can fight WB 1 on 1 without budging as seen on the panels. Not sure what your argument from some real life sport is vouching for.



Josu also fought Kiji until he got distracted  Marco with Kizaru as well.  Do i believe that Josu could fight Kiji for Hours based on that?  No. Because the time allotted wasn't enough to draw the conclusion.  Josu's distraction cost him the fight....wrong  made him lose much quicker than he probably would have.




> And I see no reason why I should assume it's related to Sabo only because he participated in the same event as Fujitora.
> 
> It could've been whatever else because we have zero info on went down off-panel.



It's also the other revo commanders they were also apart of that fight.  The purpose of that fight was to save Kuma, that is the outcome we do not know. The admirals clearly did not lose as that WOULD have been mentioned so they did win.


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## TheWiggian (Apr 21, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> It's the start of  a battle, did you see Kiji with one foot on the ground with akainu over him?  No we saw them in regular battle stance.



We got a clear conclusion between the fight for FA while we have nothing for the Levely incident.



Canute87 said:


> *The rumor isn't Sabo hurting the admiral*, The rumor is what happened to sabo after than fight.  He's escorting royalties of the same island he fought the revo's.  So that's where he's coming from.



Bolded is the rumour spread by fans assuming because I have yet to see someone providing evidence for it.




Canute87 said:


> Would have taken time, WB was too much of a distance away and it would have taken up energy he couldn't spare.  Remember they all assisted because they knew of his condition,



One would assume WB being busy for a couple of minutes wouldn't be anything impressive for him to overcome.
*
"You showing admirals at random points in a fight for a few minutes at best is not conclusive to anything,"*




Canute87 said:


> There are still levels to being beatss. Flamingo isn't even top yonkou commander level so everybody significantly stronger than him will look that way.  Just because Fujtiora is weaker than Kiji Akainu and Kizaru (current viewpoint) doesn't mean he isn't leagues above flamingo, Flamingo will also call Kaidou a Monster, But Big Mom did too, so you see relativity has some value here.



I like how you ignored the most important part of the Marines drafting in 2 beasts that are at the threshold of what is considered the World Governments Greatest Military Force and instead targeting Doflamingos speech.




Canute87 said:


> I doubt they fought much as yonkou,  Shanks never met whitebeard until the epic clash.



I agree with this, Big Mom also didn't see Kaido for decades.




Canute87 said:


> Josu also fought Kiji until he got distracted  Marco with Kizaru as well.  Do i believe that Josu could fight Kiji for Hours based on that?  No. Because the time allotted wasn't enough to draw the conclusion.  Josu's distraction cost him the fight....wrong  made him lose much quicker than he probably would have.



Unlike Jozu the Admirals didn't fall in all the instances they were fighting Whitebeard. And once Akainu was taken off guard by WB he delivered him two mortal blows which would've killed him regardless of what would've happened to the Admiral.




Canute87 said:


> It's also the other revo commanders they were also apart of that fight.  The purpose of that fight was to save Kuma, that is the outcome we do not know. The admirals clearly did not lose as that WOULD have been mentioned so they did win.



The news could've covered up the marines losing, it's not impossible just very unlikely, fact remains we know absolutely nothing.

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## Furinji Saiga (Apr 21, 2020)

People here are unironically using an offscreened fight between multiple people, and drawing a conclusion that one of those characters is the one that harmed the other with no proof other then their own bias to support their shitty tier lists. 


And I thought Yonkowankers could not stoop any lower when they put so much emphasis on hype double page spreads and ignore feats. 
Now they straight make up portrayal, like MAGIC!!

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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Furinji Saiga said:


> People here are unironically using an offscreened fight between multiple people, and drawing a conclusion that one of those characters is the one that harmed the other with no proof other then their own bias to support their shitty tier lists.
> 
> 
> And I thought Yonkowankers could not stoop any lower when they put so much emphasis on hype double page spreads and ignore feats.
> Now they straight make up portrayal, like MAGIC!!



I guess according to you guys Fujitora and Ryokugyu vs Revos was a stomp and Fujitora just bashed his head into a wall because he wanted to make himself look hurt.

Wow I think that actually makes sense.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

This easily might have been a stomp as Sabo is presumed dead. While they were fighting at the holy land and restricted from majority of strongest AP attacks.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Maybe Ryokugyu got angry because the fight was too easy and started fighting Fujitora out of anger.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> This easily might have been a stomp as Sabo is presumed dead. While they were fighting at the holy land and restricted from majority of strongest AP attacks.


Where do you people get this idea that big AoE attacks are relevant to top tiers? Every top tier fight we've seen devolved into a cqc fight.

Enel has big AoE, is he above Rayleigh?Or Marco?

Fujitora dropped a meteor and Sabo just laughed it off. Mihawk cut an iceberg the size of a mountain but that was completely irrelevant in his fight against Vista.

Big AoE is fodder control, nothing more.

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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Where do you people get this idea that big AoE attacks are relevant to top tiers? Every top tier fight we've seen devolved into a cqc fight.
> 
> Enel has big AoE, is he above Rayleigh?Or Marco?
> 
> ...


Sabo was scared. You can open chapter 751 to check. He has three exclamation marks and sweet on his face.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Kaido didn't need an island sized attack to beat FM level Luffy but the admirals do 

You're just admitting that when it comes to speed, haki, strength etc admirals are Commander level  They need a big fruit attack to get an advantage



Corax said:


> Sabo was scared. You can open chapter 751 to check. He has three exclamation marks and sweet on his face.


Sabo was training his fruit which is why he didn't use any named attacks like he did against Burgess.

Also by your logic a non-serious G2/3 Luffy is above Fujitora as he was huffing and puffing and got roughed up.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Kaido didn't need an island sized attack to beat FM level Luffy but the admirals do
> 
> You're just admitting that when it comes to speed, haki, strength etc admirals are Commander level  They need a big fruit attack to get an advantage


Ok Sabo and his friends lost and Marijoa is still intact. They also didn't use island sized attacks and so?This was enough to beat FM+ and his friends.



Seraphoenix said:


> Sabo was training his fruit which is why he didn't use any named attacks like he did against Burgess.
> 
> Also by your logic a non-serious G2/3 Luffy is above Fujitora as he was huffing and puffing and got roughed up.


Like Fujitora was scared of the mighty G3 and sweating and had three exclamation marks.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> Ok Sabo and his friends lost and Marijoa is still intact. They also didn't use island sized attacks and so?This was enough to beat FM+ and his friends.


Who said they lost? You said they admirals were restricted in AP and I pointed out that Yonkou level characters can beat a FM in a small space just by overpowering them. You implicitly admitted that Fuji and Greenbull could not do that.



Corax said:


> Like Fujitora was scared of the mighty G3 and sweating and had three exclamation marks.


He was out of breath and had marks on his face. Luffy had the advantage as Fujitora had to resort to a named attack to get his dignity back.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Who said they lost? You said they admirals were restricted in AP and I pointed out that Yonkou level characters can beat a FM in a small space just by overpowering them. You implicitly admitted that Fuji and Greenbull could not do that.
> 
> 
> He was out of breath and had marks on his face. Luffy had the advantage as Fujitora had to resort to a named attack to get his dignity back.


They lost. According to Morgans Sabo is dead. And Dragon can't contact him and his team. So admirals can also defeat a team of FM+ and his unknown lvl. friends in a closed space without using their full power.

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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> This easily might have been a stomp as Sabo is presumed dead. While they were fighting at the holy land and restricted from majority of strongest AP attacks.



This is like the worst kind of excuse ever. Did Kaido use an AOE attack when he beat Luffy ? Did Big Mom use an AOE attack when she beat Queen ?

Also I'll legit ask again. Did Fujitora hit his head into a wall ? Or did he just trip because he's blind ? Certainly he wasn't hurt in a fight, I mean how could he

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> They lost. According to Morgans Sabo is dead. And Dragon can't contact him and his team. So admirals can also defeat a team of FM+ and his unknown lvl. friends in a closed space without using their full power.


Post the panel of Morgans saying Sabo is dead. Not being able to contact them doesn't indicate anything. Kuma can teleport them anywhere. 

There is no evidence that Sabo and co lost. The only evidence we have is Fujitora covered in bandages* a week *after the fight.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Admiraltards mental gymnastics are in full play again

"Hype doesn't matter, feats matter"

But Yonko have better feats

"No they don't, Admirals are restricted from using their full power"

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> This is like the worst kind of excuse ever. Did Kaido use an AOE attack when he beat Luffy ? Did Big Mom use an AOE attack when she beat Queen ?
> 
> Also I'll legit ask again. Did Fujitora hit his head into a wall ? Or did he just trip because he's blind ? Certainly he wasn't hurt in a fight, I mean how could he


Teach used AoE attack to beat Ace,WB used AoE to harm Akainu. In general strongest attacks are attributed to peak (100%) power. I am quite sure that cornered Kaido and BM will show us a lot of strong attacks before the inevitable defeated this arc. This is shounen.



Seraphoenix said:


> Post the panel of Morgans saying Sabo is dead. Not being able to contact them doesn't indicate anything. Kuma can teleport them anywhere.
> 
> There is no evidence that Sabo and co lost. The only evidence we have is Fujitora covered in bandages* a week *after the fight.


Oda himself said that Sabo and Boa will be in a difficult situation this year. This only means that something really bad will happen to them or already has happened. Morgans didn't say that Sabo is dead,but we have 3 pages of characters reactions on this topic and they imply that something really bad happened to Sabo and his friends.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> Teach used AoE attack to beat Ace,WB used AoE to harm Akainu. In general strongest attacks are attributed to peak (100%) power. I am quite sure that cornered Kaido and BM will show us a lot of strong attacks before the inevitable defeated this arc. This is shounen.



See you're falling into a trap here. AOE attacks dictate your strongest moves. So in fact you are admitting here than Kaido and Big Mom while not at their best easily defeated a FM level opponent and a guy stronger than the revos commanders while the Admirals would need their strongest attacks to do it.

So which one is it ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> See you're falling into a trap here. AOE attacks dictate your strongest moves. So in fact you are admitting here than Kaido and Big Mom while not at their best easily defeated a FM level opponent and a guy stronger than the revos commanders while the Admirals would need their strongest attacks to do it.
> 
> So which one is it ?


I am just saying that they both didn't use their strongest attacks and defeated respective opponents (Sabo and friends and Luffy). In the end of this arc Kaido and BM will be pressured hard by high tiers and press all buttons and will be defeated. We all know this.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> See you're falling into a trap here. AOE attacks dictate your strongest moves. So in fact you are admitting here than Kaido and Big Mom while not at their best easily defeated a FM level opponent and a *guy stronger than the revos commanders* while the Admirals would need their strongest attacks to do it.
> 
> So which one is it ?



I didn't know Oda personally whispered the tier rankings of the Revo commanders in your ear.  

I would love for you to hook me up with the pipeline to this wisdom.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> I am just saying that they both didn't use their strongest attacks and defeated respective opponents (Sabo and friends and Luffy). In the end of this arc Kaido and BM will be pressured hard by high tiers and press all buttons and will be defeated. We all know this.



How do you know that they didn't use their strongest attacks ? Are you using another headcanon here ?

These are the facts.

Teach presented the fight between the 2 Admirals and the revos as a big thing.

Fujitora is still with bandages one week later.

If Kaido or Shanks fought against the revos, rhey would masacre them. That is a fact also. You wouldn't see Kaido with bandages.



Kirin Thunderclap said:


> I didn't know Oda personally whispered the tier rankings of the Revo commanders in your ear.
> 
> I would love for you to hook me up with the pipeline to this wisdom.



Yonko commanders > Revos. Those guys aren't stronger than Ivankov.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

W


Dellinger said:


> Yonko commanders > Revos. Those guys aren't stronger than Ivankov.



Good to know you supported your statement with facts and logic.

Truly Oda's prophet.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> How do you know that they didn't use their strongest attacks ? Are you using another headcanon here ?
> 
> These are the facts.
> 
> ...


Marijoa has no damage at all. Just compare it even to  Banao after Teach vs Ace (noob fight) or MF after the war,or Punk Hazard. It wasn't a hard fight at all. Like Kaido wasn't in bandages and terribly wounded after he and 1000 goons faced Oden and 9 goons?


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> Marijoa has no damage at all. Just compare it even to  Banao after Teach vs Ace (noob fight) or MF after the war,or Punk Hazard. It wasn't a hard fight at all. Like Kaido wasn't in bandages and terribly wounded after he and 1000 goons faced Oden and 9 goons?



Why are you comparing a non prime Kaido getting wounded by Oden who's a legit top tier, to Fujitora getting hurt by Sabo ? Is Sabo stronger than Oden ? No he isn't.

Also when did we last see Mariejoa ?



Kirin Thunderclap said:


> W
> 
> 
> Good to know you supported your statement with facts and logic.
> ...



Yeah because those 4 guys who be stornger than Dragon's most trusted ally. Ivankov also commands the biggest revo army, not some sea army. But let's ignore that.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Why are you comparing a non prime Kaido getting wounded by Oden who's a legit top tier, to Fujitora getting hurt by Sabo ? Is Sabo stronger than Oden ? No he isn't.
> 
> Also when did we last see Mariejoa ?


Sabo already is stronger than Oden via plot relevance (Luffy's older brother figure). Kaido had overwhelming advantage in numbers (1000 vs 10) and quality (his crew vs scabbards) and still was terribly wounded and almost killed by Oden. This is a shame to be fair.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> Sabo already is stronger than Oden via plot relevance (Luffy's older brother figure). Kaido had overwhelming advantage in numbers (1000 vs 10) and quality (his crew vs scabbards) and still was terribly wounded and almost killed by Oden. This is a shame to be fair.



Yeah Sabo is stronger than the guy who could clash equally with WB, the only WB crewmember that Newgate himself treated as a brother, he is stronger than the guy who could take an attack from Roger like nothing and is stronger than the only guy in history who scarred Kaido (albeit a non prime one)

Dude get out with this crap.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Yeah Sabo is stronger than the guy who could clash equally with WB, the only WB crewmember that Newgate himself treated as a brother, he is stronger than the guy who could take an attack from Roger like nothing and is stronger than the only guy in history who scarred Kaido (albeit a non prime one)
> 
> Dude get out with this crap.


He is stronger than guy whose plot relevance ends this arc. Sabo's will continue till the end of this manga.This is a basic shounen trope.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> He is stronger than guy whose plot relevance ends this arc. Sabo's will continue till the end of this manga.This is a basic shounen trope.


Vivi and Shirahoshi are stronger than everyone then. WB also wasn't the strongest because his plot relevance was only pre skip.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Yeah because those 4 guys who be stornger than *Dragon's most trusted ally. Ivankov also commands the biggest revo army, not some sea army. *But let's ignore that.



Can't be asked to fact check if this point is true, but even then that's besides the point. What does this have to do with individual strength? In addition to that, you're apparently(correct me if I'm wrong) scaling Iva lower than than YFM or YC level despite there being nothing in the manga to suggest that it's the case. 

The biggest L he took was being one tapped by Akainu. 

Which would still put him in the ball park of YFM level.  So again where is the logic to put the revo commanders sqaurely below the Yonkou commanders?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Can't be asked to fact check if this point is true, but even then that's besides the point. What does this have to do with individual strength? In addition to that, you're apparently(correct me if I'm wrong) scaling Iva lower than than YFM or YC level despite there being nothing in the manga to suggest that it's the case.
> 
> The biggest L he took was being one tapped by Akainu.
> 
> *Which would still put him in the ball park of YFM level*.  So again where is the logic to put the revo commanders sqaurely below the Yonkou commanders?


huh ?



Corax said:


> *Sabo already is stronger than Oden *via plot relevance (Luffy's older brother figure). Kaido had overwhelming advantage in numbers (1000 vs 10) and quality (his crew vs scabbards) and still was terribly wounded and almost killed by Oden. This is a shame to be fair.


drop the mic bruh


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Vivi and Shirahoshi are stronger than everyone then. WB also wasn't the strongest because his plot relevance was only pre skip.


WB wasn't the strongest as Roger had more plot relevance. And WB will never be the strongest ever as Luffy and more relevant chars will surpass him. Vivi's and Shirahoshi's relevance ended in their arcs. Though as a super weapon Shira might reappear. And she will be one of the strongest ever as even Imu has her in top priority list.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Corax said:


> Oda himself said that Sabo and Boa will be in a difficult situation this year. This only means that something really bad will happen to them or already has happened. Morgans didn't say that Sabo is dead,but we have 3 pages of characters reactions on this topic and they imply that something really bad happened to Sabo and his friends.


So no evidence that they lost? thanks


Kirin Thunderclap said:


> *The biggest L he took was being one tapped by Akainu.
> 
> Which would still put him in the ball park of YFM level.*  So again where is the logic to put the revo commanders sqaurely below the Yonkou commanders?


You talk about facts and logic then post something like this? Akainu could not get past Marco while Ace was giving a death speech.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Sabo stronger then ODEN


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## Beast (Apr 21, 2020)

Wait.... weren’t people saying that Enma Zoro> Oden? 


Zoro> oden > Kaidou> luffy> Sabo 

 
Great logic


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> So no evidence that they lost? thanks
> 
> You talk about facts and logic then post something like this? Akainu could not get past Marco while Ace was giving a death speech.



What? We have seen time and time again that YFM's can be easily dealt with by top tiers, I don't care about your shitty take on Akainu's powerlevel or plot relevance. But Iva being destroyed by Akainu doesn't bar him from being on a similar level to those individuals.

 Ignoring a character's abilities to make a point. LUL 



Duhul10 said:


> huh ?
> 
> 
> drop the mic bruh



Yeah?


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> What? We have seen time and time again that YFM's can be easily dealt with by top tiers, I don't care about your shitty take on Akainu's powerlevel or plot relevance. But Iva being destroyed by Akainu doesn't bar him from being on a similar level to those individuals.


Show panels of them being easily dealt with I'll wait. Not everyone lives in your fantasy world. The only time any admiral got an advantage over Marco was when he was distracted. Show the panels of him being overpowered. You said they did it easily right? Shouldn't be a problem then.

People like you should read more and talk less. Will save you the embarrassment of making laughable statements all under the guise of superiority.

Also Blue Deep Databook confirms that Marco is admiral level. Must sting huh?


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Show panels of them being easily dealt with I'll wait. Not everyone lives in your fantasy world. The only time any admiral got an advantage over Marco was when he was distracted. Show the panels of him being overpowered. You said they did it easily right? Shouldn't be a problem then.
> 
> People like you should read more and talk less. Will save you the embarrassment of making laughable statements all under the guise of superiority.
> 
> Also Blue Deep Databook confirms that Marco is admiral level. Must sting huh?


Yikes


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Yikes


Thought as much. Learn to troll with more subtlety.


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## Beast (Apr 21, 2020)

WB>~ Admirals 
WB> Yonko 

No matter what, you say, do or think... WB is above ALL yonko, but barely above admirals as feats show.


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Thought as much. Learn to troll with more subtlety.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> WB>~ Admirals
> WB> Yonko
> 
> No matter what, you say, do or think... WB is above ALL yonko, but barely above admirals as feats show.


WB took an admiral to Nirvana in spite of being in a deplorable state, a state not worthy for the title he once had ( judging by the comments of multiple characters, including the magma brat ). That title was the only thing putting him above the other Yonkos. That title was of a man long gone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Show panels of them being easily dealt with I'll wait. Not everyone lives in your fantasy world. The only time any admiral got an advantage over Marco was when he was distracted. Show the panels of him being overpowered. You said they did it easily right? Shouldn't be a problem then.
> 
> People like you should read more and talk less. Will save you the embarrassment of making laughable statements all under the guise of superiority.
> 
> Also Blue Deep Databook confirms that Marco is admiral level. Must sting huh?



We accepting databooks now? 

Cool the vivre card confirms Mihawk shits on Shanks glad we agree now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


>


Yes hilarious that you are still looking for those panels of admirals easily dealing with FMs. Joke poster huh. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> We accepting databooks now?
> 
> Cool the vivre card confirms Mihawk shits on Shanks glad we agree now.


Where does it confirm that? It says that he waits for the swordmaster that surpasses Shanks. Not that he is stronger than Shanks as despite giving Shanks a sword, Oda was unsure of how he would fight. "Closest to the throne of PK">>>

Mihawk even confirms in his conversation with Shanks that they drew in the past and he doesn't want to fight him anymore as he lost his arm.

But let's say I take the WSS title as word of god and that Mihawk is WSS. No problem chief. Fujitora and BM are swordsman and Mihawk only considers Shanks a rival. They are not even on the radar. So I can live in a world where Mihawk>=Shanks>Other Yonkou>Admirals


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Yes hilarious that you are still looking for those panels of admirals easily dealing with FMs. Joke poster huh.
> 
> 
> Where does it confirm that? It says that he waits for the swordmaster that surpasses Shanks. Not that he is stronger than Shanks as despite giving Shanks a sword, Oda was unsure of how he would fight. "Closest to the throne of PK">>>
> ...



More like 

Whitebeard>Kaidou>Akainu=Mihawk>Shanks>Big Mom.  

Blackbeard who knows could be stronger then kaidou right now could also be weaker then big mom.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sabo stronger then ODEN


I really would t be shocked by this at all.

Oden is a really powerful swordsman; and has high Haki, but the fact that he never turned Emma black means he isn’t the best in ether of these categories. Sabo clearly has high martial art skill as well with Dragon Fist; and has Advanced CoA. He also has a hax DF unlike Oden. If I am simply comparing them.

Both are Martial Art Masters but obviously not the best of their respective arts.

Both have extremely high CoA Haki

Both have unknown CoO Haki

Both have incredibly high physical stats

Oden has no DF; and Sabo has one of the Strongest In the verse.

Oden has legendary weapons; Emma and the other Sword

From a glance Sabo is >= Oden; depending on who is better with CoC / CoO; and whether you think Emma and Odens other sword is equivalent to the Mera Fruit as a stat boost (which is unlikely imo) .


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> More like
> 
> Whitebeard>Kaidou>Akainu=Mihawk>Shanks>Big Mom.
> 
> Blackbeard who knows could be stronger then kaidou right now could also be weaker then big mom.


Stop trying to sneak in FM level Akainu into these discussions.

Kaido drew with BM who we know is below Mihawk. She is a swordsman and Mihawk per your vivre card only considers Shanks on his level. So we know Shanks and Mihawk> Kaido and BM. Not only that but Kaido has small swords on his weapon so we know he is a swordsman too.

As for WB, he has a sword so he is below Mihawk and by extension Shanks. Against Roger, his equal, he went to using his sword to fight instead of his fruit. So he is primarily a swordsman.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Kirin Thunderclap said:


> Can't be asked to fact check if this point is true, but even then that's besides the point. What does this have to do with individual strength? In addition to that, you're apparently(correct me if I'm wrong) scaling Iva lower than than YFM or YC level despite there being nothing in the manga to suggest that it's the case.
> 
> The biggest L he took was being one tapped by Akainu.
> 
> Which would still put him in the ball park of YFM level.  So again where is the logic to put the revo commanders sqaurely below the Yonkou commanders?



Why would I scale Iva higher when he hasn't shown anything near top YC level ? Dude outright admitted inferiority to Magellan.

Also where's the logic ? Revo commanders and even Sabo haven't gotten anywhere near the hype those billion bounty monsters have. That's a fact.



Corax said:


> WB wasn't the strongest as Roger had more plot relevance. And WB will never be the strongest ever as Luffy and more relevant chars will surpass him. Vivi's and Shirahoshi's relevance ended in their arcs. Though as a super weapon Shira might reappear. And she will be one of the strongest ever as even Imu has her in top priority list.


WB wasn't the strongest after Roger's death ? Who was then ?

Vivi's plot relevance hasn't ended since Oda regularly shows her throughout the series. Is she stronger than Oden, yes or no ?



Turrin said:


> I really would t be shocked by this at all.
> 
> Oden is a really powerful swordsman; and has high Haki, but the fact that he never turned Emma black means he isn’t the best in ether of these categories. Sabo clearly has high martial art skill as well with Dragon Fist; and has Advanced CoA. He also has a hax DF unlike Oden. If I am simply comparing them.
> 
> ...



Oden could master Enma as a todler and is the only guy to put a scar on Kaido yet Sabo has better CoA ? Also where does Sabo compare to Oden in any way ? Did he clash with prime WB equally ? Did he tank an attack from the freaking pirate king, only to get up right away and fight for 3 days straight against the Roger Pirates ? Did he wound Kaido ?

Tell me one single feat of Sabo that compares to those things, I'm waiting.

Anyway with the crap I'm reading here, Admirals stans have reached new lows on the fan fiction tier crap they are posting. Next we'll have that the Yonko are simply Shichibukai level and Oda doesn't care about them.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Stop trying to sneak in FM level Akainu into these discussions.
> 
> Kaido drew with BM who we know is below Mihawk. She is a swordsman and Mihawk per your vivre card only considers Shanks on his level. So we know Shanks and Mihawk> Kaido and BM. Not only that but Kaido has small swords on his weapon so we know he is a swordsman too.
> 
> As for WB, he has a sword so he is below Mihawk and by extension Shanks. Against Roger, his equal, he went to using his sword to fight instead of his fruit. So he is primarily a swordsman.



Still trying to push FM level Akainu 

You a funny guy I will give you that.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

I don't why there is so much stupidity overall.

Oda has made it clear throughout hundreds of chapters.

Yonko > Admirals >Yonko Commanders. Saying the Admirals are on par with the Yonko is nearly as stupid as saying the FMs are on par with the Admirals.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Still trying to push FM level Akainu
> 
> You a funny guy I will give you that.


Don't blame me, blame Oda for making Marco admiral level 



Dellinger said:


> Yonko > Admirals >Yonko Commanders. Saying the Admirals are on par with the Yonko i*s nearly as stupid as saying the FMs are on par with the Admirals.*


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I really would t be shocked by this at all.
> 
> Oden is a really powerful swordsman; and has high Haki, but the fact that he never turned Emma black means he isn’t the best in ether of these categories. Sabo clearly has high martial art skill as well with Dragon Fist; and has Advanced CoA. He also has a hax DF unlike Oden. If I am simply comparing them.
> 
> ...









Sabo gets cut in half. He is probably Oden level sure I agree with that notion not stronger though. If he was stronger then oden, Fujitora would still be in the hospital not going out to fight warlords.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sabo gets cut in half. He is probably Oden level sure I agree with that notion not stronger though. If he was stronger then oden, Fujitora would still be in the hospital not going out to fight warlords.



How is he Oden level ?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Oden could master Enma as a todler and is the only guy to put a scar on Kaido yet Sabo has better CoA ? Also where does Sabo compare to Oden in any way ? Did he clash with prime WB equally ? Did he tank an attack from the freaking pirate king, only to get up right away and fight for 3 days straight against the Roger Pirates ? Did he wound Kaido ?
> 
> Tell me one single feat of Sabo that compares to those things, I'm waiting.



Sigh...

1- To begin with, In no universe did Oden clash with Prime-WB equally; he clashed with a Prime-WB who wasn’t even beginning to use his Full power. This is evident in the fact that even after Oden got stronger spending time on WB ship Roger slapped Oden and then proceeded to have a prolonged equal fight with Prime-WB; and at least this Sick Roger was considered equals in combat to Prime-WB. So the idea that Oden is even remotely comparable to Prime-WB is completely unfounded at this point.

2- Oden never mastered Emma to the point of turning it black; the Manga clear establishes that as a goal for Zoro as a means for him surpassing Oden as a Swordsman and CoA user. So yes he was a master swordsman but he wasn’t the best.
Sabo as I said has also proven himself to be a master martial artist as well.  

3- Moving on from that you Kaidou-Stans can’t have it both ways; ether Kaidou was much weaker 20Y ago as you stans claim every time Oden slapping Kaidou is brought up; or there isn’t much difference between Kaidou now and 20Y ago and you need to accept Oden >= present Kaidou. If you still want to assert that it’s the former and Kaidou was much weaker 20Y ago then this isn’t a major point in Oden favor.

 If Kaidou is around the same strength now as he was 20Y ago is you stance, then my counter point to that is that until Kaidou is actually stated to have fought any other Top Tier to the death (clearly battle against weakened BM wasn’t to the death) and isn’t wounded; then I don’t find Oden hurting Kaidou to be something that other Top Tiers are incapable off; and I think Sabo could easily be Top Tier. I mean literally you Kaidou stans claim the other Super Nova are going to help gang up on Kaidou, which means that you believe Kidd, Law, and possibly others can do meaningful shit to Kaidou; so how is that super impressive that Oden can hurt him then; if all of these YC-YC1 dudes apparently will be able too. Is Sabo not YC-YC1 level? Or maybe your gang up scenario makes no sense? Maybe Luffy is going to reach Yonko level and put in 90% of the work, but if so he is going to be doing so with Advanced CoA which Sabo can clearly use as well; so ether way, I don’t see why Sabo wouldn’t be able to damage Kaidou. 

4- Dude Roger wasn’t even serious; we’ve seen Queen tank a non serious attack from a Yonko; does that mean Queen is anywhere close to Yonko level? Roger slapping Oden back with a non serious attack shows he is nowhere near Roger 

5- Sabo has twice taken on a Marine Admiral and done extremely well; wounding said Admiral; I would say that is definitely comparable to taking on and wounding Kaidou 20Y ago; if not a superior feat if Kaidou is much weaker back then as you Stans claim.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> How is he Oden level ?



Well I don't really think he is oden level but I'm not gonna argue with people that do Sabo has a lot of things going for him currently. For reference I think oden is admiral level.

And for Sabo I think you can make a argument is also currently Admiral level. Although I would personally put him a step below(basically the same area I would put current luffy). Above Yonkou First mates but below Admirals. Which is kind of getting into semantics about what admiral level is at that point.

To put it in a stricter sense I think Sabo could probably give Oden a upper mid diff fight. To be oden level you need to be able to give oden a high diff fight.

Also keep in mind I am operating under the assumption Sabo got stronger from fighting Fuji and Green Bull. Which I think is a safe bet he did.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Sabo would not only lose his lower half but also shit his pants AT THE SAME TIME ( it is possible from a neurological point of view ) if he was to clash with Primebeard.


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## shisuiuchiha5 (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> So no evidence that they lost? thanks
> 
> You talk about facts and logic then post something like this? Akainu could not get past Marco while Ace was giving a death speech.



Akainu stopped a punch aimed at pre timeskip luffy nothing impressive with that.its like saying aokiji is a weakling because pretimskip zoro stopped his ice saber meant for robin


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sabo gets cut in half. He is probably Oden level sure I agree with that notion not stronger though. If he was stronger then oden, Fujitora would still be in the hospital not going out to fight warlords.


Realistically this depends on how strong you think Kaidou was 20Y ago in contrast to his current self; if he’s about as strong as he was 20Y ago give or take a little; and not much has changed, then sure I think Oden and Sabo are probably around equal (or maybe Oden is even better); if Kaidou has gotten a lot stronger then, I think Sabo is >= Oden; as I tend to believe Fujitora ~= Kaidou.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sigh...
> 
> 1- To begin with, In no universe did Oden clash with Prime-WB equally; he clashed with a Prime-WB who wasn’t even beginning to use his Full power. This is evident in the fact that even after Oden got stronger spending time on WB ship Roger slapped Oden and then proceeded to have a prolonged equal fight with Prime-WB; and at least this Sick Roger was considered equals in combat to Prime-WB. So the idea that Oden is even remotely comparable to Prime-WB is completely unfounded at this point.



Pretty sure DD posted the page where Oden clashes with WB. I know you work with your own eyes and headcanon but that is there. At no point in that clash was WB non serious. In fact he makes a comment on Oden being a beast, something his crew would not be able to handle and he says after that things don't look good, ie Oden was strong as fuck.



> 2- Oden never mastered Emma to the point of turning it black; the Manga clear establishes that as a goal for Zoro as a means for him surpassing Oden as a Swordsman and CoA user. So yes he was a master swordsman but he wasn’t the best.
> Sabo as I said has also proven himself to be a master martial artist as well.


Irrlevant. Who has shown better feats ?



> 3- Moving on from that you Kaidou-Stans can’t have it both ways; ether Kaidou was much weaker 20Y ago as you stans claim every time Oden slapping Kaidou is brought up; or there isn’t much difference between Kaidou now and 20Y ago and you need to accept Oden >= present Kaidou. If you still want to assert that it’s the former and Kaidou was much weaker 20Y ago then this isn’t a major point in Oden favor.



If Kaido is 100 he was 80 back then. Also why are you saying Oden slapped Kaido ? How do you slap someone when the other gets up in mere seconds and one shots you ?

Also what you are saying again is proven wrong in the manga. Oden says Kaido can get a lot stronger. Fact.



> If Kaidou is around the same strength now as he was 20Y ago is you stance, then my counter point to that is that until Kaidou is actually stated to have fought any other Top Tier to the death (clearly battle against weakened BM wasn’t to the death) and isn’t wounded; then I don’t find Oden hurting Kaidou to be something that other Top Tiers are incapable off; and I think Sabo could easily be Top Tier. I mean literally you Kaidou stans claim the other Super Nova are going to help gang up on Kaidou, which means that you believe Kidd, Law, and possibly others can do meaningful shit to Kaidou; so how is that super impressive that Oden can hurt him then; if all of these YC-YC1 dudes apparently will be able too. Is Sabo not YC-YC1 level? Or maybe your gang up scenario makes no sense? Maybe Luffy is going to reach Yonko level and put in 90% of the work, but if so he is going to be doing so with Advanced CoA which Sabo can clearly use as well; so ether way, I don’t see why Sabo wouldn’t be able to damage Kaidou.


Where did Sabo use advanced CoA ? The same one Rayleigh used ?

Kaido is going down because he'll fight multiple [Blocked Domain] members, he'll fight with Big Mom again and the marines are certainly getting involved. You have to be stupid to not realize that this war is the repeat of the God Valley Incident. Kaido and Mom will go down because they will fall appart. oda has already given hints towards that because normally they'd beat everyone.



> 4- Dude Roger wasn’t even serious; we’ve seen Queen tank a non serious attack from a Yonko; does that mean Queen is anywhere close to Yonko level? Roger slapping Oden back with a non serious attack shows he is nowhere near Roger


How wasn't Roger serious when he used hardening on his sword and a named attack ? 



> 5- Sabo has twice taken on a Marine Admiral and done extremely well; wounding said Admiral; I would say that is definitely comparable to taking on and wounding Kaidou 20Y ago; if not a superior feat if Kaidou is much weaker back then as you Stans claim.



How ? Many characters have taken on Admirals.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Realistically this depends on how strong you think Kaidou was 20Y ago in contrast to his current self; if he’s about as strong as he was 20Y ago give or take a little; and not much has changed, then sure I think Oden and Sabo are probably around equal (or maybe Oden is even better); if Kaidou has gotten a lot stronger then, I think Sabo is >= Oden; as I tend to believe Fujitora ~= Kaidou.



How is Fujitora equal to Kaido ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Realistically this depends on how strong you think Kaidou was 20Y ago in contrast to his current self; if he’s about as strong as he was 20Y ago give or take a little; and not much has changed, then sure I think Oden and Sabo are probably around equal (or maybe Oden is even better); if Kaidou has gotten a lot stronger then, I think Sabo is >= Oden; as I tend to believe Fujitora ~= Kaidou.



They would need similar feats for that logic to work. Oden put kaidou on his ass and although Its a safe assumption that kaidou from 20 years ago is not stronger then Fuji. Its probably a safe assumption that dragon mode kaidou even from 20 years ago is more durable then Fuji. So as far as attack power is concerned Oden has enough juice to kill Fuji as well just like younger kaidou if he gets a hit in anyway. Can sabo claim the same attack potency? 

Add on to that fact that Sabo did not hurt Fuji alone, he had back up from his fellow revolutionary fighters one of which can boost your base stats with her devil fruit.

So we got Oden defeating Kaidou on his own vs Sabo hurting Fuji with help while boosted by a devil fruit.

From a feats and hype standpoint Oden is superior imo. By hype and portrayal Oden is comparable to Prime Rayleigh. You would be hard pressed to convince anyone that Prime Rayleigh would lose to Fujitora who we know for sure is stronger then Sabo. Although I personally rate Rayleigh higher then oden you get my point. Odens hype puts him up there with legends.

Where Sabo currently stands is giving a good fight to legends not beating them. Honestly I'm not even sure if I would give Sabo the Win over Old Rayleigh, and I for dame sure don't think Old Rayleigh is beating Prime Oden.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

shisuiuchiha5 said:


> Akainu stopped a punch aimed at pre timeskip luffy nothing impressive with that.its like saying aokiji is a weakling because pretimskip zoro stopped his ice saber meant for robin


Akainu tried to kill Luffy for the length of Ace's death speech. He could not get past Marco despite being bloodlusted.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

@Dellinger 

1- WB didn’t even use Gura Fruit clearly he was not serious; and as I said before WB was able to clash evenly with Roger; while Oden was blown back. 

2- Feat wise Sabo took on an Admiral and injured an Admiral and Oden took on Kaidou from 20Y ago and injured Kaidou from 20Y ago. As I said how these stack up depends on how strong you think Kaidou was 20Y ago in comparison to his current self

3- 80 Means what exactly? That realistically tells me nothing. What characters was Kaidou comparable in strength to back then versus now and how have you arrived at you conclusion, is what I need

4- Oden slapped Kaidou becuase he was about to finish him until the Hag aides Kaidou with hostage distraction.

5- Sabo using Advanced CoA

6- And I’m asking you how are [Blocked Domain] Members going to matter at all if they can’t even do any damage to Kaidou? If you hold the belief Kaidou goes down to multiple people working together; then obviously these individuals are going to be able to damage him; and it’s not some crazy thing to be able to damage Kaidou. 

7- Because it was nowhere near Rogers beat attack dude. It’s the same way BM has used hardening and clashes with G4 Luffy; it’s just a casual thing for her

8- How many characters have Successfully taken on an injured Admirals to the point where they need to be bandaged up; not many. 

9- I say Fujitora is around Kaidou level; because Fujitora / Green Bull occupy similar space as Kaidou / BM. If you look at Sabo and Luffy; Sabo is meant to be an arc ahead of Luffy. In DR Sabo main enemy he was stalling against was Fujitora a Top Tier, while Luffy fought DD YC level. Then the next hit arc WCI Luffy goes up against BM but doesn’t really fight a complete battle against her; this is like Sabo vs Fujitora in DR. Then currently Luffy is going up against 2 Top Tiers BM and Kaidou; this is like Sabo and Revos going up against Fujitora and Green Bull. Only difference is Luffy will succeed where Sabo failed. But I’m both cases Fujitora/Greenbull and BM/Kaidou are set up as the gateway to top tier for both Luffy and Sabo.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin I will ask you one last time

if Kaido is the weakest then why:

Is he the worlds strongest creature 

why does he have the highest bounty 

why should we bet on him in one on one

why is he unkillable ?


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## Kirin Thunderclap (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Why would I scale Iva higher when he hasn't shown anything near top YC level ? Dude outright admitted inferiority to Magellan.
> 
> Also where's the logic ? Revo commanders and even Sabo haven't gotten anywhere near the hype those billion bounty monsters have. That's a fact.



????

Quintuple posting isn't going to make you right lmao.

It's quite simple really, if the Revos are going to be a strong fighting force going forward in the manga, they are going to need multiple YC level fighters on their side, that seems to be the standard for any relevant group in the manga. Oda introduced them as the main combatants of the revo army including sabo/iva and pre-robot Kuma. They went 4v2 the Admirals, which is a pretty good feat considering Admirals=Yonko. ( I know me saying this makes your butt clench.) Hold those sweet cheeks.

Why would I not scale some of them to at least YC3 level? The fcking scabbards have a bunch of random YC3-2 level characters in their group, it's not that special anymore. Also using Bounty as an argument is dumb and Magellan is a beast, so I don't know how that doesn't allow Iva to be around YC level?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Turrin I will ask you one last time
> 
> if Kaido is the weakest then why:
> 
> ...


Hope you do not expect some decent answers from people on this thread.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @Dellinger
> 
> 1- *WB didn’t even use Gura Fruit clearly he was not serious; and as I said before WB was able to clash evenly with Roger; while Oden was blown back. *
> 
> ...



Gonna have to call you out for this one Turrin. 

Whitebeard did not use his fruit vs Shanks either. In fact when WB and Shanks clashed Whitebeard was old and sick. Yet everyone and their grandma likes to hype up Shanks cause he clashed with WB. I have even seen you use that clash as supporting evidence as to why Shanks is superior to kaidou/big mom. 

But if we want to hype up Oden cause he clashed with neigh Prime Whitebeard and outright complimented odens strength! Now we got a issue, now its not so impressive. 

If Shanks vs Old Sick WB is impressive and worth praise. So is (Non-Prime Oden) vs neigh Prime White-beard. 

Also worth mentioning that Oden was happy and wanted to Join Whitebeard. He was not going all out either as potentially killing/injuring the guy who you want to travel with is not a very smart move. Oden was just testing Whitebeard out as he's the first pirate he met.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> They would need similar feats for that logic to work. Oden put kaidou on his ass and although Its a safe assumption that kaidou from 20 years ago is not stronger then Fuji. Its probably a safe assumption that dragon mode kaidou even from 20 years ago is more durable then Fuji. So as far as attack power is concerned Oden has enough juice to kill Fuji as well just like younger kaidou if he gets a hit in anyway. Can sabo claim the same attack potency?
> 
> Add on to that fact that Sabo did not hurt Fuji alone, he had back up from his fellow revolutionary fighters one of which can boost your base stats with her devil fruit.
> 
> ...


1- Feats wise as I said Sabo is a master martial artist who demonstrated Advanced CoA; this should put him on an even playing field with Oden; and then the difference is going to be what ups their offense more Mera Fruit or Oden Swords; I would say Mera, especially considering nether of Oden swords turned black, but that’s just me. Given this and that Luffy is going to damage Kaidou with CoA; I think obviously Sabo can damage him as well (assuming no Bs like Dragons being resistant to flames which doesn’t matter here).

As far as Kaidou being more durable then Fujitora in Dragon form; sure he probably is, but at the same time Kaidou doesn’t have Fujitora Sword back by gravity powers to block hits for him; or gravity powers in general Oden needed to get around to land that hit. So I can play the same game as you and say what has Oden showed that would enable him to overcome Fujitora full power Gravity Sword to actually damage him? 

2- Sabo had back up but so did Fujitora; in the form of Green Bull; and who knows if there were other marines involved considering Sabo and the Revos were the invading force. Until shown otherwise I think it’s safe to assume Fujitora has the higher quality back up here. It also bares mentioning that Oden had backup too his scabbers and Kaidou has his army; nether of these were clean 1v1 battles; we just know that at one point Oden cornered Kaidou and damaged him; and likely Sabo did the same to Fujitora.

3- I don’t really see how Oden is comparable to Prime Raleigh; Prime Raleigh was still the FM of Rogers ship not Oden who was merely one of the crew. I put Prime Raleigh above Oden; and Oden more along the lines of Gaben; and I can see Sabo being somewhere around the level of a Commander on Rogers ship; if he’s fighting Admirals competitively. 

4- Thats why I’m saying if you think Kaidoun 20Y ago is the same strength as now then fair enough Oden has the better feet as he actually was going to beat Kaidou; but if he’s a lot weaker then not so much


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

Oden was 4-th on Roger's ship. May be 3-rd if you don't like Gaban. But not 2-nd. Second was Ray and will be forever remembered  as Roger's aibo (equal partner).


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Gonna have to call you out for this one Turrin.
> 
> Whitebeard did not use his fruit vs Shanks either. In fact when WB and Shanks clashed Whitebeard was old and sick. Yet everyone and their grandma likes to hype up Shanks cause he clashed with WB. I have even seen you use that clash as supporting evidence as to why Shanks is superior to kaidou/big mom.
> 
> ...



1- I definitely have never said Shanks is equal to WB ever. I have more then once said Shanks has yet to prove he is WB equal considering he doesn’t have anything specifically to match a serious WB using the Gura Fruit’s suggested to be World Ending Power. So you calling me out for this is unfounded.

I have said that Shanks clashing evenly with WB is a feat; and so is Oden’s clash with WB. However there is a very clear difference. In Shanks and WB clash we get the sky being split equally by their attacks, this implies an equality in strength and Haki; we never get this for Oden and WB. In-fact it seems like WB didn’t even use Haki against Oden at all; or if he did it was very minimal; as right after that event we see what WB using Haki against Roger looks like:

Compared to:

or Compared to:


Which is closer; which is a more serious WB?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Feats wise as I said Sabo is a master martial artist who demonstrated Advanced CoA; this should put him on an even playing field with Oden; and then the difference is going to be what ups their offense more Mera Fruit or Oden Swords; I would say Mera, especially considering nether of Oden swords turned black, but that’s just me. Given this and that Luffy is going to damage Kaidou with CoA; I think obviously Sabo can damage him as well (assuming no Bs like Dragons being resistant to flames which doesn’t matter here).
> 
> As far as Kaidou being more durable then Fujitora in Dragon form; sure he probably is, but at the same time Kaidou doesn’t have Fujitora Sword back by gravity powers to block hits for him; or gravity powers in general Oden needed to get around to land that hit. So I can play the same game as you and say what has Oden showed that would enable him to overcome Fujitora full power Gravity Sword to actually damage him?
> 
> ...



1. I agree Sabo can probably hurt kaidou but that's a assumption. If we are going by feats Oden currently has the better of the two. As he is the one who did massive damage to dragon kaidou in one attack. To the fuji part I was just talking attack power/coa between the two with that comparison between oden and Sabo. Who is harder to actually hit is easily Fuji who is a CoO master and gravity user compared to a giant dragon in the sky.

2. Fair enough on the back up part but Oden although some would debate otherwise was about to defeat Kaidou with one more attack. We currently have no evidence to suggest that Sabo was close to defeating Fuji just that he got hurt. Currently based on the little evidence we have Sabo and his friends lost and most likely got captured since they haven't reported in to Dragon after a entire week. Of course on the flip side Fuji>Younger kaidou. So I do consider those feats comparable. Which is why I consider Sabo close to Admiral level now.

3. Oden was the strongest member of Whitebeards crew and Prime Whitebeard called him his brother. Which is no different then Roger calling Rayleigh his partner as Whitebeards crew are all sons to him and they call him pops but not Oden who was put on a higher pedestal then all of them. He also was obviously the one who fought Prime Rayleigh and potentially Scopper as well for 3 days. As who the hell else would be fighting them Young Jozu and Vista? Don't think I need to point out how Young Jozu and Vista are outclassed by Prime Rayleigh and Scopper. Oden also gets all the benefits of the hype he has in general. Voice of All Things user just like Roger, Joy boy, and Luffy, Freak of Nature Prodigy only surpassed by Big Mom in that regard.

4. Kaidous feat is nice but even without that feat Oden still crossed blades with Whitebeard, Rayleigh, shrugged off a attack from Prime Roger with minor damage this would be 6 years before his death. Kaidou for reference casually one shot Luffy and if I recall correctly you think Roger can mid diff kaidou. So it's a more impressive endurance feat then it seems at first glance.

 Those feats I would also suggest point towards superiority to sabo.




Turrin said:


> 1- I definitely have never said Shanks is equal to WB ever. I have more then once said Shanks has yet to prove he is WB equal considering he doesn’t have anything specifically to match a serious WB using the Gura Fruit’s suggested to be World Ending Power. So you calling me out for this is unfounded.
> 
> I have said that Shanks clashing evenly with WB is a feat; and so is Oden’s clash with WB. However there is a very clear difference. In Shanks and WB clash we get the sky being split equally by their attacks, this implies an equality in strength and Haki; we never get this for Oden and WB. In-fact it seems like WB didn’t even use Haki against Oden at all; or if he did it was very minimal; as right after that event we see what WB using Haki against Roger looks like:
> 
> ...



1. Where in my post did I say you think Shanks=Whitebeard?

2. I agree that Whitebeard was not going all out neither was Oden for that matter. But they still clashed equally Which you know is called portrayal and Oden did it with a stronger WB then the one vs Shanks. That and the fact Oden gets stronger from his travels with Whitebeard and Roger is a feat thats easily superior imo then Sabos best feat of hurting Fuji which is why I initially posted the panel of them clashing.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Sabo gets cut in half. He is probably Oden level sure I agree with that notion not stronger though. If he was stronger then oden, Fujitora would still be in the hospital not going out to fight warlords.



Oden's best feat is literally injuring Kaido whose best feat at that time was beating 340 million bounty Moria.

Oden has no feat that puts him as top tier.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Which you know is called portrayal and *Oden did it with a stronger WB then the one vs Shanks.*


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

.

ah yes how could i forget Whitebeard being old and sick is actually a power up.

my bad



Sherlōck said:


> Oden's best feat is literally injuring Kaido whose best feat at that time was beating 340 million bounty Moria.
> 
> Oden has no feat that puts him as top tier.



Yea cause high tiers can clash with Prime White-beard, fight Prime Rayleigh for 3 days, and shrug off named attacks from the Pirate King.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

So now Turrin is using the sky split argument but when the Yonko stans use to hype yo the Yonko because you know Admirals simply can’t do it, the feat is irrelevant and non existent 

double standards much ?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. I agree Sabo can probably hurt kaidou but that's a assumption. If we are going by feats Oden currently has the better of the two. As he is the one who did massive damage to dragon kaidou in one attack. To the fuji part I was just talking attack power/coa between the two with that comparison between oden and Sabo. Who is harder to actually hit is easily Fuji who is a CoO master and gravity user compared to a giant dragon in the sky.
> 
> 2. Fair enough on the back up part but Oden although some would debate otherwise was about to defeat Kaidou with one more attack. We currently have no evidence to suggest that Sabo was close to defeating Fuji just that he got hurt. Currently based on the little evidence we have Sabo and his friends lost and most likely got captured since they haven't reported in to Dragon after a entire week. Of course on the flip side Fuji>Younger kaidou. So I do consider those feats comparable. Which is why I consider Sabo close to Admiral level now.
> 
> ...


1- The problem is we can say the same thing about Fujitora; Oden has no feats of hitting Fujitora ether. Unless Sabo fights Kaidou or Oden fights Fujitora; we just have to go our best estimate; such is the case for most Battledome matches. If you agree Sabo can probably hurt Kaidou I don’t see what there is left to discuss. 

2- Which is my point; if you think 20Y Kaidou is >= Fujitora then fair enough Oden has the better feat. But if not then the feats are comparable or imo Sabo’s is actually better depending on how much weaker Kaidou was 20Y

3- Oden was the strongest in WB crew but he left WB crew and he never became the right hand man of Roger; it was still Prime Raleigh, not Oden. That tells me end of the day a Raleigh was stronger. As far as the battle goes I don’t know how seriously Raleigh took that battle; but the way I see it both Raleigh and Oden we’re still growing; unlike Roger who was on the decline since beaten it Xebec due to Illness. Raleigh imo ended the journey to Raftel at a higher level then Oden even if he started it closer to Oden; it’s the same as how Sanji and Zoro started their Journey closer to each other but now there seems to be a bigger and bigger gap as time goes on between the two. 

4- Oden clashes with WB who wasn’t even using Haki; while Oden was. This isn’t that impressive of a feat for Oden, that exceeds crossing blades seriously with an Admiral. Like wise crossing blades with an unknown how serious Raleigh X amount of years ago I still don’t know how to quantify that next to Sabo fighting an Admiral and damaging one. 

Could Oden be way stronger then Sabo; sure; I’m just saying that Sabo being >= Oden wouldn’t surprise me ether. We didn’t see enough of Oden to know how strong he is in relation to Sabo.

——

1- You said you were calling me out because I said WB obviously wasn’t 100% serious as he didn’t use his Gura Fruit. I have never said WB was 100% serious against Shanks ether. Thats what I was responding too

2- Dude it’s really clear WB was going at Shanks harder then he did against Oden. Whether WB is sick/Old the power be exerted to split the heavens against Shanks is way beyond what he used against Oden where he didn’t even seemingly use Haki, and mostly just stopped Oden strike


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> So now Turrin is using the sky split argument but when the Yonko stans use to hype yo the Yonko because you know Admirals simply can’t do it, the feat is irrelevant and non existent
> 
> double standards much ?


We’ve literally never see two Admirals clash like that on panel so of course we haven’t seen it lol. What kind of nonsense is this. 

Off panel we literally saw an Admiral Clash split and island in half based on their powers, which I would say is a similar or better feat


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> .
> 
> 
> ah yes how could i forget Whitebeard being old and sick is actually a power up.
> ...


That was WB in WSM condition. Very big difference between that and a younger WB still not WSM. He wasn't introduced as such btw.

With the scale of the clashes it's also pretty clear. Jozu himself says the clash was visible from other planets.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We’ve literally never see two Admirals clash like that on panel so of course we haven’t seen it lol. What kind of nonsense is this.
> 
> Off panel we literally saw an Admiral Clash split and island in half based on their powers, which I would say is a similar or better feat



we've seen Admirals clash with Yonko. We saw an Admiral clashing with Rayleigh. 

I mean I really wonder why Oda in 977 chapters has only had the sky splitting occurring with Yonko only.. I really wonder why..


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> That was WB in WSM condition. Very big difference between that and a younger WB still not WSM. He wasn't introduced as such btw.
> 
> With the scale of the clashes it's also pretty clear. Jozu himself* says the clash was visible from other plane*ts.




You never fail to make me laugh Sera I will give you that.

@Turrin  I will get to your post later got some stuff to do.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> .
> Yea cause high tiers can clash with Prime White-beard, fight Prime Rayleigh for 3 days, and shrug off named attacks from the Pirate King.



Where WB didn’t use hardening or advanced CoA or his DF?

Or that there is no actual panel of him fighting Rayleigh for a single day let alone 3?

Or that he was a fly that Roger swatted away that made him bleed from every hole in the face?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> we've seen Admirals clash with Yonko. We saw an Admiral clashing with Rayleigh.
> 
> I mean I really wonder why Oda in 977 chapters has only had the sky splitting occurring with Yonko only.. I really wonder why..


Yes and they clashed evenly with Raleigh and WB; so what does that tell you? It’s not like Raleigh and WB overcame them when they clashed.

The sky splitting is probably when those of equal haki and/or  ‘maybe’ Power level clash. I have no doubt that Raleigh and WB have better Haki then the Admirals and potentially higher power level.

Admirals never clashes with their equals is why that hasn’t happened.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Where WB didn’t use hardening or advanced CoA or his DF?
> 
> Or that there is no actual panel of him fighting Rayleigh for a single day let alone 3?
> 
> Or that he was a fly that Roger swatted away that made him bleed from every hole in the face?



1. Kaidou didn't use hardening, advanced CoA, or his Devil fruit against a certain high tier. Guess what happened when that high tier tried to fight him(luffy). Kaidou casually one shot him. WB>Kaidou just as a reminder as well.

2. Roger and Whitebeard were fighting each other. So unless you think Rayleigh just let Oden slice up his crew for 3 days so yes common sense would dictate Whitebeards strongest fighter Oden would be fighting Roger's strongest fighter Rayleigh. Especially since in case you forgot Rayleigh and Scopper were already heading to both fight Oden before Roger stepped in. Again common sense.

3. This is the best you can do? I refer back to number 1. What happened when a casual kaidou attacked a high tier they got one shot. What happend when Queen went up against a heavily nerfed big mom? He got 2 shot. Strangely doesn't happen to Oden I wonder why? Oden after shrugging off Prime Rogers attack goes on to fight with the soon to be pirate kings crew for 3 days with minor injuries to show for it at the end. 

But nah dudes not top tier. Keep failing at downplaying oden you just look silly

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes and they clashed evenly with Raleigh and WB; so what does that tell you? It’s not like Raleigh and WB overcame them when they clashed.
> 
> The sky splitting is probably when those of equal haki and/or  ‘maybe’ Power level clash. I have no doubt that Raleigh and WB have better Haki then the Admirals and potentially higher power level.
> 
> Admirals never clashes with their equals is why that hasn’t happened.



So how can Kaido and Big Mom replicate the exact same feat that WB and Shanks did if they are a lot weaker than them as you claim ?

Do you realize that with every post you make you are shooting yourself in the foot ?

I mean your logic right now is.

"Kaido and Big Mom are weaker than most top tiers, certainly weaker than WB and Shanks and even weaker than Admirals"

"Shanks and WB who are the strongest can split the sky because they are equal"

"Kaido and Big Mom do the same but they are a lot weaker"

Like


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

So Turrin's logic again

WB and Shanks > Admirals > Kaido and Big Mom

Sky splitting = Guys who are equal 

Kaido and Mom sky split but they aren't equal to Shanks and WB, they are also weaker to the Admirals who have never in 977 chapters even come close to replicate that feat.

I'm literally laughing out loud


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## Extravlad (Apr 21, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> 1)- Which group has more plot relevance?


Yonko.



Sherlōck said:


> 2)- Which group has better portrayal?


Tie.



Sherlōck said:


> 3)- Which group wins in a team battle?


Admirals have actual synergy, Yonko do not.
Admirals.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> So how can Kaido and Big Mom replicate the exact same feat that WB and Shanks did if they are a lot weaker than them as you claim ?
> 
> Do you realize that with every post you make you are shooting yourself in the foot ?
> 
> ...


Look man if your not going to read my post that’s not my problem.

I said the sky splitting is probably an effect to denote the two are equals in Haki &/or Power level. BM and Kaidou split the sky when they clash Because they are ether

A- Relative to each other in Haki
B- Relative to each other in Power level

But if one of them clashed with Prime Roger or Prime-WB sky probably isn’t going to split as they are both

A- Weaker in Haki
B- Weaker in Power level

And actually I did not say BM and Kaidou are weaker then all Admirals. I said they are likely comparable to Fujitora and GreenBull. Also Akainu and Aokiji are likely stronger and so are WB / Shanks; Kizaru is a little unknown where he falls and so is Teach.

This is how the Admirals balance out

Shanks =~ Akainu
Teach ~= Kizaru (Both are wild cards)
BM ~= Fujitora / Green Bull
Kaidou ~= Green Bull / Fujitora

Previously

WB > Akainu
Shanks > Aokiji
Kizaru  > Kaidou / BM
Sengoku > Kaidou / BM


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

I'll ask you again because you are just being dumb right now.

If Kaido and Big Mom are weaker than Shanks and WB then how the fuck can they do the exact same feat ? Like how ?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> I'll ask you again because you are just being dumb right now.
> 
> If Kaido and Big Mom are weaker than Shanks and WB then how the fuck can they do the exact same feat ? Like how ?


I literally already explained it; Because the effect happens when roughly equals in Power level or Haki clash. So Kaidou is equal to BM in Haki Power level; but if he clashed with someone stronger then him or weaker then him the effect wouldn’t happen; because they aren’t equals.
This is why the effect didn’t happen when WB clashes with Admirals and Raleigh clashed with Kizaru as they aren’t equal in PL or Haki


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I literally already explained it; Because the effect happens when roughly equals in Power level or Haki clash. So Kaidou is equal to BM in Haki Power level; but if he clashed with someone stronger then him or weaker then him the effect wouldn’t happen; because they aren’t equals.
> This is why the effect didn’t happen when WB clashes with Admirals and Raleigh clashed with Kizaru as they aren’t equal in PL or Haki


You don't explain shit here. It doesn't make sense for weaker characters to replicate the feat of stronger ones.

Luffy and Doflamingo for example didn't even come close to split the sky.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 21, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Kaidou didn't use hardening, advanced CoA, or his Devil fruit against a certain high tier. Guess what happened when that high tier tried to fight him(luffy). Kaidou casually one shot him. WB>Kaidou just as a reminder as well.



If you think Kaido hurt Luffy without haki a character who is immune to blunt damage then I have nothing to say really cause I don't adhere to that fan fiction.



> 2. Roger and Whitebeard were fighting each other. So unless you think Rayleigh just let Oden slice up his crew for 3 days so yes common sense would dictate Whitebeards strongest fighter Oden would be fighting Roger's strongest fighter Rayleigh. Especially since in case you forgot Rayleigh and Scopper were already heading to both fight Oden before Roger stepped in. Again common sense.



Or Scopper fought him? As there is no indication on who fought Oden in a *looting constest. Y*ou can make up possible fighting scenario whatever way you want. Just don't push it as a fact.



> 3. This is the best you can do? I refer back to number 1. What happened when a casual kaidou attacked a high tier they got one shot. What happend when Queen went up against a heavily nerfed big mom? He got 2 shot. Strangely doesn't happen to Oden I wonder why? Oden after shrugging off Prime Rogers attack goes on to fight with the soon to be pirate kings crew for 3 days with minor injuries to show for it at the end.



That casual Kaido is going to get his ass kicked soon by bunch of high tiers.

Also I remember Meme in chain. Queen awake and Meme in sleep. Queen cracked Meme's skull so hard that she went to sleep.

Barely anyone was injured in that clash. Even Buggy. Surviving a clash that everyone and their mother did with little to no injury just like everyone involved is nothing to brag about.        

Your best is hyping up low end clash and conjuring hypothetical scenario and match up to elevate Oden to top tier status.



> But nah dudes not top tier. Keep failing at downplaying oden you just look silly



Now where did I hear that before? 














I remember. When people were saying Mingo was Admiral level and I said he was YC2 at best. You can thank your god that Oden will not have any fight in the future as that would make another of your silly prediction bite the dust.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Never expected Sherlock to post such trollish crap. How low have you fallen ?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> You don't explain shit here. It doesn't make sense for weaker characters to replicate the feat of stronger ones.
> 
> Luffy and Doflamingo for example didn't even come close to split the sky.


DR Doffy and Base Luffy aren’t in the same universe as Yonko; so that’s an irrelevant example.

Compare characters that are at least in the same realm as each other. For example DR Luffy and Don Chinjao create a similar effect when clashing as Luffy and Doffy did; despite us knowing Don Chinjao is weaker then Doflamingo. Katakuri and Luffy make the same effect despite us knowing Katakuri sure as shit is stronger then Doflamingo and Don Chinjoa:

Creating that effect clearly doesn’t mean all of these character occupy the same exact Power level; it’s ether created because the two characters clashing are close in over all power level or more likely because their CoTC is close in power.

In the case of the Yonko is the sky splitting due to their CoTc or due to their CoA clashing we don’t know but BM and Kaidou splitting the sky would likely at best mean they are in the same universe in one of these areas as Shanks and WB; to the same extent that Don Chinjao and Doffy are in the same universe as Katakuri for creating a similar effect when clashing with Luffy as Katakuri does

Edit: For the Record even if you want to use this to state their their CoA or their CoTC is on par with Shanks and WB; I really don’t care, as I never claimed ether of them were inferior in any specific area to Shanks and WB anyway; they are inferior overall.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Never expected Sherlock to post such trollish crap. How low have you fallen ?



Sorry that I didn’t get a hard on for Kaido ever since he appeared kid.

But I haven’t changed my stance that top YC  together can beat a top tier (Yonko/Admiral) even after Meme made Luffy lose strength or Kaido one shot Luffy. I remained steadfast in my hypothesis and if anything that’s what's going to happen soon .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin do you realize that Luffy and Katakuri's feat shit on Luffy vs Doflamingo because they didn't even need to physically clash ? Are you blind ? Also Luffy and Chinjao didn't creat a similar effect with Doffy vs Luffy. Look at the sheer range of the Luffy vs Doffy clash.

You are shooting again yourself in the foot.

So I'll ask you again.

Ho can 2 weaker characters replicate the exact same feat with 2 stronger ones, in the exact same manner ?


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Turrin do you realize that Luffy and Katakuri's feat shit on Luffy vs Doflamingo because they didn't even need to physically clash ? Are you blind ? Also Luffy and Chinjao didn't creat a similar effect with Doffy vs Luffy. Look at the sheer range of the Luffy vs Doffy clash.
> 
> You are shooting again yourself in the foot.
> 
> ...



Dude I’m showing you that while not exactly the same these feats are in the same universe to each other; as oppose to splitting the heavens. IE Don Chinjoa is closer to Luffy then Luffy and Doflamingo are to Kaidou / BM. 

—-

As I said the best you can argue is that BM and Kaidou are ~= Shanks and WB in CoTC &/or CoA. Unless your going to tell me that a a character with equal CoTC &/or CoA to another can’t be stronger then them.


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## Corax (Apr 21, 2020)

If characters are equal in a certain aspect clash happens. If they aren't one just overpowers another and hence no clash. It is as easy as it is.


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Dude I’m showing you that while not exactly the same these feats are in the same universe to each other; as oppose to splitting the heavens. IE Don Chinjoa is closer to Luffy then Luffy and Doflamingo are to Kaidou / BM.



What same realm dude ? Luffy's and Doffy's clash is bigger than Chinjao, ie they are stronger. Luffy and Katakuri destroy stuff around by simply releasing their aura, no physical clash involved, ie it is stronger than Luffy's and Doffy's clash.

—-



> As I said the best you can argue is that BM and Kaidou are ~= Shanks and WB in CoTC &/or CoA. Unless your going to tell me that a a character with equal CoTC &/or CoA to another can’t be stronger then them.



So Kaido and Big Mom are = to Shanks and WB in CoC or CoA when they are also more physically impressive ? WIth feats and facts ?

How can they be weaker then ? See how you are shooting yourself in the foot again ? How can Kaido for example be weaker than Shanks when according to you he is equal in Haki and by feats in the manga, he is also physically stronger ? unless you think Shanks can just drop from a sky island and survive.


@Duhul10 

Look how I am exposing this shitposter


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## Duhul10 (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> What same realm dude ? Luffy's and Doffy's clash is bigger than Chinjao, ie they are stronger. Luffy and Katakuri destroy stuff around by simply releasing their aura, no physical clash involved, ie it is stronger than Luffy's and Doffy's clash.
> 
> —-
> 
> ...



That's quite some Achilles heel you've caught him with. one of the many, actually...


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> What same realm dude ? Luffy's and Doffy's clash is bigger than Chinjao, ie they are stronger. Luffy and Katakuri destroy stuff around by simply releasing their aura, no physical clash involved, ie it is stronger than Luffy's and Doffy's clash.
> 
> —-
> 
> ...


- How is DR Luffy stronger then DR Luffy?
- Katakuri and Luffy clash effect is still more reminiscent of Doflamingo and Don Chinjao clashes then Yonko is my point.

—-
Is Raw Haki power in CoA &/Or CoTc; and physical might aren’t the only stats. Shanks could have Advanced CoO; Shanks could have some ultra hax sword with some powerful ability like Emma that enhances his attacks. Shanks could have better skill with CoTC being able to use an Advanced Variant. There are tons of options.

I would say if Shanks is as good at CoA &/or CoTc In raw power that bodes poorly for Kaidou as he’s all about raw power; and hasn’t shown much outside it; so if Shanks is matching Kaidou in that regard it’s not so good a sign I would say


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - How is DR Luffy stronger then DR Luffy?
> - Katakuri and Luffy clash effect is still more reminiscent of Doflamingo and Don Chinjao clashes then Yonko is my point.



In the same way Luffy got stronger in WCI. Point is, 2 clashes we saw with stronger opponents, those clashes were better than the Chinjao one while the Yonko clashes have been exactly the same.

—-


> Is Raw Haki power in CoA &/Or CoTc; and physical might aren’t the only stats. Shanks could have Advanced CoO; Shanks could have some ultra hax sword with some powerful ability like Emma that enhances his attacks. Shanks could have better skill with CoTC being able to use an Advanced Variant. There are tons of options.
> 
> I would say if Shanks is as good at CoA &/or CoTc In raw power that bodes poorly for Kaidou as he’s all about raw power; and hasn’t shown much outside it; so if Shanks is matching Kaidou in that regard it’s not so good a sign I would say



So Shanks can have advanced CoA but Kaido can't ? 

I mean you just give random shit to everyone to downplay Kaido, bringing up Luffy getting a power to beat him when Kaido hasn't shown yet:

His overall Haki prowess.

Other abilities his mythical zoan grants.

His hybrid form

His awakening.

So how does that poorly bode for Kaido when Kaido actually has a bigger potential given he also has his fruit mastery to showcase ?

I mean you just said that Shanks should be more powerful because you think he has some stuff while completely disregarding things Kaido certainly has, no assumptions here, nothing.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> In the same way Luffy got stronger in WCI. Point is, 2 clashes we saw with stronger opponents, those clashes were better than the Chinjao one while the Yonko clashes have been exactly the same.
> 
> —-
> 
> ...


- Luffy tangibly got stronger from mastering a new skill in WCI; this doesn’t happen in DR
- No the point is these clashes are fairly close in effect deposite the enemies varying in PL; and even you don’t buy that; Luffy is clearly stronger then Don Chinjoa yet has they clash their CoTC this way. So as I said at best this illustrates equivalent Raw Haki power; rather then overall combat ability 

—-

I literally never said Kaidou can’t. You asked me hypothetically how can shanks be stronger then Kaidou if Kaidou is physically stronger and has equal raw Haki power and I gave many options for how Shanks could be better. It’s not downplaying Kaidou to say he may not be as good as Shanks at CoO, CoA, or CoTC skill, or lack a legendary hax blade; anymore then I feel it’s downplaying Shanks to say Kaidou is likely physically stronger then him and has better durability due to hax DF. 

You just don’t like the fact that Shanks could still be better then Kaidou in many areas that would make him better overall, which isn’t my problem or a counter argument 

—-

As for the rest of course we need to make more assumptions with a character we have seen less off then one we have seen more off


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> - Luffy tangibly got stronger from mastering a new skill in WCI; this doesn’t happen in DR
> - No the point is these clashes are fairly close in effect deposite the enemies varying in PL; and even you don’t buy that; Luffy is clearly stronger then Don Chinjoa yet has they clash their CoTC this way. So as I said at best this illustrates equivalent Raw Haki power; rather then overall combat ability


How are they fairly close ?  How is Doflamingo's clash with Luffy close to the Chinjao one ? 

You clearly are spouting nonsense.

I'll explain it to you once again.

There are the Yonko, 4 strongest pirates.

In 977 chapters we have only seen twice a sky splitting effect and that comes from them showcasing that they are on the same level since that's clearly Oda's intention. If Oda didn't want to showcase that, he wouldn't have Kaido and Big Mom replicate the exact same feat.



—-



> I literally never said Kaidou can’t. You asked me hypothetically how can shanks be stronger then Kaidou if Kaidou is physically stronger and has equal raw Haki power and I gave many options for how Shanks could be better. It’s not downplaying Kaidou to say he may not be as good as Shanks at CoO, CoA, or CoTC skill, or lack a legendary hax blade; anymore then I feel it’s downplaying Shanks to say Kaidou is likely physically stronger then him and has better durability due to hax DF.
> 
> You just don’t like the fact that Shanks could still be better then Kaidou in many areas that would make him better overall, which isn’t my problem or a counter argument
> 
> —-



You are doing it again. You literally again that Shanks can be stronger because "lol legendary hax blade" and other assumptions while we know for a fact that Kaido has those things I mentioned.

Also see I can make some dumb argument too.

Kaido and Big Mom don't have legendary weapons and they did the exact same thing Shanks and WB did whom both have legendary weapons. So they are more impressive. See how I can play the dumb game too ?

Also I'm not downplaying Shanks, I'm just going with what we see and know. Shanks can't jump from Sky Island and survive nor can he survive 40 executions and thousands of tortures.


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> How are they fairly close ?  How is Doflamingo's clash with Luffy close to the Chinjao one ?
> 
> You clearly are spouting nonsense.
> 
> ...


We can agree Luffy is stronger then Chinjoa right? So how is Luffy having a equal CoTC clash with Chinjoa if he’s stronger then him?

Please answer that question

——

Yes I am speculating on what abilities Shanks has that could be better then Kaidou as you ask me to do... Do you want a trophy for figuring that out?

You asked me how Shanks could be stronger then Kaidou despite having equal raw Haki and Physical strength I gave you options, it’s that simple. What part of speculation do you not understand?

——
All I was showing is that BM and Kaidou splitting the sky does not mean they are equal to Shanks and WB; as at best it shows they are equal in raw Haki power or potentially simply in the same universe so they generate a similar effect.

So do you have any other proof that splitting the sky makes them equals overall or no?


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## Dellinger (Apr 21, 2020)

Turrin said:


> We can agree Luffy is stronger then Chinjoa right? So how is Luffy having a equal CoTC clash with Chinjoa if he’s stronger then him?
> 
> Please answer that question



Simple, Luffy wasn't fighting at his best at the time. Proven after what he did against Doflamingo.

——



> Yes I am speculating on what abilities Shanks has that could be better then Kaidou as you ask me to do... Do you want a trophy for figuring that out?
> 
> You asked me how Shanks could be stronger then Kaidou despite having equal raw Haki and Physical strength I gave you options, it’s that simple. What part of speculation do you not understand?


So you gave me options about Shanks but completely neglecting things Kaido certainly has ? Why ?

——


> All I was showing is that BM and Kaidou splitting the sky does not mean they are equal to Shanks and WB; as at best it shows they are equal in raw Haki power or potentially simply in the same universe so they generate a similar effect.
> 
> So do you have any other proof that splitting the sky makes them equals overall or no?



Ok let's see again

You say that they are equal in raw Haki power but they are weaker even though they haven't showed shit of their true strength.

It makes absolute sense.

You have posted so much crap in this thread, it's beyond ridiculous. Not only you have completely disregarded everything the manga states about Kaido, you now assume that Shanks has multiple hidden secret powers while completely ignoring things that Kaido has for certain.

Dude for real. Get out with your headcanon


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## Turrin (Apr 21, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Simple, Luffy wasn't fighting at his best at the time. Proven after what he did against Doflamingo.
> 
> ——
> 
> ...


1- Okay then how do we know Shanks was giving it his all against WB? 

2- Because you asked my how Shanks could be stronger then Kaidou; not how he could be weaker, obviously...

What I’m saying is even if Kaidou and BM are equal in raw Haki power this doesn’t mean they are stronger overall; you then asked how this could be possible and I gave you options and your buthurt over me doing so; what’s your problem man. Chill out.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 21, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> If you think Kaido hurt Luffy without haki a character who is immune to blunt damage then I have nothing to say really cause I don't adhere to that fan fiction.



Seems you need a basic haki lesson.

I said Kaidou didn't use hardening and advanced CoA.

Never said Kaidou didn't use regular basic level haki which is invisible.





> Or Scopper fought him? As there is no indication on who fought Oden in a *looting constest. Y*ou can make up possible fighting scenario whatever way you want. Just don't push it as a fact.



Or maybe both fought him since that was their CANON intention in the first place.

I'm going with the more logical assumption but yes its not a fact I'm just using common sense. Perhaps Roger and Whitebeard didn't fight for 3 days straight. Maybe Roger stopped and Roger fought Oden for a bit and Whitebeards fought Rayleigh I mean we DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE EVERYTHING so who knows.

That fact remains Oden fighting against ROGERS CREW for 3 days with no major injuries is a top tier feat even if he only fought Rayleigh for a total of 30 minutes the entire 3 days.  Thinking otherwise is just massive downplay of oden and disrespect to Roger's crew.



> That casual Kaido is going to get his ass kicked soon by bunch of high tiers.



Not seeing your point here?



> Also I remember Meme in chain. Queen awake and Meme in sleep. Queen cracked Meme's skull so hard that she went to sleep.



Not seeing your point here?



> Barely anyone was injured in that clash. Even Buggy. Surviving a clash that everyone and their mother did with little to no injury just like everyone involved is nothing to brag about.



Unlike buggy the clown who was more then likely fighting Marco and teach. Oden was fucking up Roger pirates to the point both Rayleigh and Scopper decided to jump him.

Again use Common sense here. This is Shonen Manga not rocket science.



> Your best is hyping up low end clash and conjuring hypothetical scenario and match up to elevate Oden to top tier status.



No its called common sense.

No dude that is not top tier is replicating Odens feats. Current Luffy who is hailed as a fifth emperor currently can't clash with Prime Whitebeard and make him worried for his crews safety(literally told his crew to back off, called Oden dangerous, and bad news when he ran up on him), current luffy would get one shot by Prime Roger(oden wasn't), Prime Oden was portrayed as a threat to Roger's crew and fought them for 3 days. Prime Rayleigh would one shot Luffy. Would Current luffy get treated like a equal by Prime Whitebeard and called brother no way in hell. Prime Whitebeard outright called Oden dangerous and compared him to his old crewmates in RoX. Who would all become top tier pirates(Big Mom, Kaidou, Shiki). We know Luffy would not get the same treatment as kaidou was bored with him and one shot him casually.

His feats with whitebeard were before he even started traveling with him, and before he traveled with Roger for a entire year.


But nah Oden ain't top tier 

Oh and I mentioned luffy because most people consider him as a top level high tier along with Yonkou first mates. So he is a easy baseline to use for comparison.







> Now where did I hear that before?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Odens feats are a fuck ton better then Doflamingos like its not even close.

And his hype/portrayal compared to DDs is even more so further apart.

Anyway I'm done here. How you can read the oden flashback and come out thinking Oden is not top tier your interpretation of the Manga is obviously way different then mine. So we ain't gonna agree on this. Downplay oden if you want XD.




Dellinger said:


> In the same way Luffy got stronger in WCI. Point is, 2 clashes we saw with stronger opponents, those clashes were better than the Chinjao one *while the Yonko clashes have been exactly the same.*
> 
> —-
> 
> ...



Actually I would say Kaidou and Big Moms feat looked more impressive. A lot more actually. 

Maybe its just me but it looks more impressive then Whitebeards and Shanks.

Granted I would not really put much thought into it. Probably just oda wanting it to look very impressive not trying to make it exactly mirror shanks and whitebeards clash.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Seems you need a basic haki lesson.
> 
> I said Kaidou didn't use hardening and advanced CoA.
> 
> Never said Kaidou didn't use regular basic level haki which is invisible



My mistake. @Dellinger & @Duhul10 claimed that Laido hurt Luffy without haki so I put you up there with them



> Or maybe both fought him since that was their CANON intention in the first place.
> 
> I'm going with the more logical assumption but yes its not a fact I'm just using common sense. Perhaps Roger and Whitebeard didn't fight for 3 days straight. Maybe Roger stopped and Roger fought Oden for a bit and Whitebeards fought Rayleigh I mean we DIDN'T ACTUALLY SEE EVERYTHING so who knows.
> 
> That fact remains Oden fighting against ROGERS CREW for 3 days with no major injuries is a top tier feat even if he only fought Rayleigh for a total of 30 minutes the entire 3 days.  Thinking otherwise is just massive downplay of oden and disrespect to Roger's crew.



Anything could have been possible. But there isn’t anything that supports your claim that Rayleigh fough Loden for 3 days. 

Fighting 30 minutes against a non blood lusted Rayleigh is fine and dandy. I wouldn’t expect anything less than a character I consider who was YFM level at that time . 



> No its called common sense.
> 
> No dude that is not top tier is replicating Odens feats. Current Luffy who is hailed as a fifth emperor currently can't clash with Prime Whitebeard and make him worried for his crews safety(literally told his crew to back off, called Oden dangerous, and bad news when he ran up on him), current luffy would get one shot by Prime Roger(oden wasn't), Prime Oden was portrayed as a threat to Roger's crew and fought them for 3 days. Prime Rayleigh would one shot Luffy. Would Current luffy get treated like a equal by Prime Whitebeard and called brother no way in hell. Prime Whitebeard outright called Oden dangerous and compared him to his old crewmates in RoX. Who would all become top tier pirates(Big Mom, Kaidou, Shiki). We know Luffy would not get the same treatment as kaidou was bored with him and one shot him casually.
> 
> ...



Current Luffy is hailed as fifth emperor by Morgan who said he is cheer leading for Luffy. Not by marines or other Yonko crew.    

Current Luffy can't clash with Prime WB is fanon.

Current Luffy gets one shot by Prime Roger is again fanon.  

WB asked his crew to stand back? When his crew was barely at his infancy ? When his current strongest member was a cabin boy ?

Just cause Kaido didn’t give Luffy the same treatment WB gave Oden doesn’t mean shit. These two have totally different attitude. Would Kaido welcome a pirate with 1.5 billion bounty with open arm if Luffy wanted to join. Hell yeah, he would have. Kaido doesn’t mind to have conquerors in his crew unlike WB.   

Jozu, Vista, Ice Witch everyone fought Roger's crew for 3 days. You can't pick and choose to hype a single character cause it suits your tier list.            

That's all circumstantial. What you call common sense is what I call desperate attempt to try to find filmiest evidence to support your hypothesis.



> Odens feats are a fuck ton better then Doflamingos like its not even close.
> 
> And his hype/portrayal compared to DDs is even more so further apart.
> 
> Anyway I'm done here. How you can read the oden flashback and come out thinking Oden is not top tier your interpretation of the Manga is obviously way different then mine. Downplay oden if you want XD.



I consider Oden to be current YFM+ level. That's not downplaying rather more accurate scaling based on his feats.  



> So we ain't gonna agree on this.



Seems like we won't .


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> My mistake. @Dellinger & @Duhul10 claimed that Laido hurt Luffy without haki so I put you up there with them
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its Fanon that Prime Whitebeard and Prime Rayleigh are Kaidou level?

You trolling me right now or do you think kaidou used his strongest attack vs Luffy or something? Otherwise how do you call it Fanon that Prime Whitebeard and Rayleigh can't replicate a casual feat from Kaidou?

Maybe it would take more effort im not magic I don't know the exact percentage of strength kaidou used vs Luffy, but anybody on kaidous level should be able to replicate it with their own attacks. Perhaps with more effort but they can do it.

Anyway we shall agree to disagree but that portion confused me. Cause I'm assuming you just phrased that weird and don't actually think Kaidou is far above Prime Rayleigh and Prime whitebeard.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Its Fanon that Prime Whitebeard and Prime Rayleigh are Kaidou level?
> 
> You trolling me right now or do you think kaidou used his strongest attack vs Luffy or something? Otherwise how do you call it Fanon that Prime Whitebeard and Rayleigh can't replicate a casual feat from Kaidou?
> 
> ...



I just think it’s Oda's usual way to hype a villain before the real fight. Soon Kaido is going to fight Kidd, Law, Luffy and he isn’t one shotting anyone of them.

Also by current I meant post advance CoA haki trained Luffy.


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## Dellinger (Apr 22, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Okay then how do we know Shanks was giving it his all against WB?
> 
> 2- Because you asked my how Shanks could be stronger then Kaidou; not how he could be weaker, obviously...
> 
> What I’m saying is even if Kaidou and BM are equal in raw Haki power this doesn’t mean they are stronger overall; you then asked how this could be possible and I gave you options and your buthurt over me doing so; what’s your problem man. Chill out.



I'll ask you again

Does Kaido not have :

Haki
Mastery over his devil fruit
Hybrid
Awakening

Does he not ? Only Shanks has some uber hax sword and Haki beyond everyone ?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> I just think it’s Oda's usual way to hype a villain before the real fight. Soon Kaido is going to fight Kidd, Law, Luffy and he isn’t one shotting anyone of them.
> 
> Also by current I meant post advance CoA haki trained Luffy.



We don't have enough info on current luffy so that's true but at the same time since we don't know who's to say Current luffy is not top tier?


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## YellowCosmos (Apr 22, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> I don't why there is so much stupidity overall.
> 
> Oda has made it clear throughout hundreds of chapters.
> 
> Yonko > Admirals >Yonko Commanders. Saying the Admirals are on par with the Yonko is nearly as stupid as saying the FMs are on par with the Admirals.



If you look through this forum and other forums you'll see plenty of intelligent people that have a different interpretation. Pretending everyone who doesn't agree with your interpretation is stupid is the height of arrogance. You're better off assuming that either the evidence itself is controversial or that, if it isn't controversial, a lot of people are making easy-to-make but hard-to-detect mistakes when interpreting scenes.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> We don't have enough info on current luffy so that's true but at the same time since we don't know *who's to say Current luffy is not top tier?*



If Luffy is going to solo Kaido or do 90% of the work without getting another power up in the middle of the fight then I will call Luffy a top tier. 

But that's for future and I don't see it happening.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> If Luffy is going to solo Kaido or do 90% of the work without getting another power up in the middle of the fight then I will call Luffy a top tier.
> 
> But that's for future and I don't see it happening.



Dang he's got to do 90 percent of the work XD


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Dang he's got to do 90 percent of the work XD



That's just how I see it. You can disagree with my view of course. But imo if you aren’t capable of pushing a top tier 90% then I am not calling you a top tier


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> That's just how I see it. You can disagree with my view of course. But imo if you aren’t capable of pushing a top tier 90% then I am not calling you a top tier



Well I don't use percentages but it would change depending on how strong the top tier is.

But say we were talking about Old Rayleigh who i would consider the lowest of the top tiers. Then yea 90 percent would be a fair estimate i think I would give.

For kaidou I think 70 percent is fine. As for me you need to be able to give kaidou a high diff fight to be a top tier and 70 percent sounds about right for high diff. 65 to 90 percent to be more exact i think is what I would consider high diff. Not sure though never really though about it in terms of percentages haha


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Well I don't use percentages but it would change depending on how strong the top tier is.
> 
> But say we were talking about Old Rayleigh who i would consider the lowest of the top tiers. Then yea 90 percent would be a fair estimate i think I would give.
> 
> For kaidou I think 70 percent is fine. As for me you need to be able to give kaidou a high diff fight to be a top tier and 70 percent sounds about right for high diff. 65 to 90 percent to be more exact i think is what I would consider high diff. Not sure though never really though about it in terms of percentages haha



It's ok. Not everyone thinks the same way.

While I do considere prime Ray top tier, my view is not same for current Ray. Current Ray at best can give Kaido 85% and Beckman can give Kaido 80%. So I don't see them as top tier rather very strong high tier.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> It's ok. Not everyone thinks the same way.
> 
> While I do considere prime Ray top tier, my view is not same for current Ray. Current Ray at best can give Kaido 85% and Beckman can give Kaido 80%. So I don't see them as top tier rather very strong high tier.



Who would you consider the weakest top tier? As in the weakest person a character can beat that would make you be confident in saying they are top tier now.

That's a lot of respect for Beckman 80 percent to kaidou? I can respect that I hope Oda does not off panel his future fight.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> I'll ask you again
> 
> Does Kaido not have :
> 
> ...


Sure he’s got that.

We don’t know what Shanks has, but yeah superior Haki Mastery &/or Hax Sword could easily put him above Kaidou, hypothetically speaking


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Who would you consider the weakest top tier? As in the weakest person a character can beat that would make you be confident in saying they are top tier now.



Fujitora and Blackbeard imo are currently the weakest top tier.

Though BB will soon shoot past the rest or maybe he is already halfway there  by fighting CPO in revo island.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Fujitora and Blackbeard imo are currently the weakest top tier.
> 
> Though BB will soon shoot past the rest or maybe he already has by fighting *CPO in revo island*.



Nah black beard ran away

He wanted no hands from Rob Lucci 

Interesting you said BB though? Why not Green Bull and Fujitora?


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Nah black beard ran away
> 
> He wanted no hands from Rob Lucci



I suspect the strongest CPO to be top tier.   



> Interesting you said BB though? Why not Green Bull and Fujitora?



I did say Fujitora though.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> I suspect the strongest CPO to be top tier.
> 
> 
> 
> I did say Fujitora though.



I know but you didn't mention Green bull who is a new admiral just like Fuji.

So I take it you think Green Bull is stronger then Fuji?

I hope CPO has a top tier fighter would be pretty weak writing not to be honestly.


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## Nox (Apr 22, 2020)

Logia have been presented as possessing a great degree of elemental materialization. In the hands of masters with intention of limited scale destructiveness dwarfs the norm. Part of what made Gura fearsome is it capability to not just match BUT surpass Logia's in this aspect. Sabo is a Logia novice but his attack ripped Corrida apart. His more regulated Dragon Claw boosted attacks ripped through buildings. Marines needed to clear when Fujitora engaged Sabo. Without a DF, the impact of their clash produces a shockwave that pushed most back. Fujitora fights against MMnM Sabo and its only after some time that Sabo demands he gets serious. Moko ripped through multiple buildings. Kaido one-shot a mode a FIRST MATE wasn't impressed with. It took a mythical Zoan (which boost physique) to match Admirals. The stronger enemies have gotten the larger the finishers required have been. This is a screenshot of Sabo fighting Fujitora BEFORE asking him to get serious.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I know but you didn't mention Green bull who is a new admiral just like Fuji.
> 
> So I take it you think Green Bull is stronger then Fuji?



I do. Oda is hiding him for a reason.

My theory is GB has a zoan fruit and going to beat Mihawk and Zoro will beat GB during the final war.       



> I hope CPO has a top tier fighter would be pretty weak writing not to be honestly.



Agree.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> I do. Oda is hiding him for a reason.
> 
> My theory is *GB has a zoan fruit and going to beat Mihawk *and Zoro will beat GB during the final war.
> 
> ...



A Zoan user beating Mihawk? Are you speculating Green Bull is also a swordsmen?

Otherwise how is Zoro gonna become WSS.  Actually though if Green Bull beats Mihawk and Zoro beats Green Bull I mean that means Zoro is stronger then mihawk right? Would the one piece world accept that i mean I would I personally don't think mihawk is getting killed off but its a interesting thing to think about as we have no info on how these titles work. 

I just want to see what Green Bull looks like and I do hope he has a mythical zoan fruit that would be cool cause then the current 3 admirals have one of each fruit.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> A Zoan user beating Mihawk? Are you *speculating* *Green Bull is also a swordsmen?*



Yes, I am. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Otherwise how is Zoro gonna become WSS. Actually though if Green Bull beats Mihawk and Zoro beats Green Bull I mean that means Zoro is stronger then mihawk right? Would the one piece world accept that i mean I would



One of the reason I hope GB is a zoan sword user is cause I don't want there to be anyone doubting his WSS title cause he can bend gravity or throw shockwave throw his weapon. 

Just physical buff from zoan DF.       



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I personally don't think mihawk is getting killed off but its a interesting thing to think about as we have no info on how these titles work.



I don't think Mihawk will be killed off. If GB dies end up beating him then he will be thrown in the ID.


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2020)

@Sherlōck @Donquixote Doflamingo 

Greenbull isn’t fighting Zoro.

Fujitora has been setup as Zoro enemy; with him being based on a legendary swordsman. Green Bull is likely Sanji’s enemy and his face is being kept hidden because he is likely related to Sanji in some way. He might be secretly Yonji or a hidden sibling.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @Sherlōck @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> Greenbull isn’t fighting Zoro.
> 
> Fujitora has been setup as Zoro enemy; with him being based on a legendary swordsman. Green Bull is likely Sanji’s enemy and his face is being kept hidden because he is likely related to Sanji in some way. *He might be secretly Yonji or a hidden sibling*.



I hope not had enough with the shitty vinsmokes


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I hope not had enough with the shitty vinsmokes


Eh I don’t mind the vinsmokes.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Apr 22, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Eh I don’t mind the vinsmokes.



There designs and powers are fine. 

There story line in general though is kind of meh. I Don't think oda did a good job with sanji or his family in whole cake island. 

But knowing oda they aren't dead like they should be so of course they will show up again. We shall see what they do in the final war maybe I will like them more then haha


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## Turrin (Apr 22, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> There designs and powers are fine.
> 
> There story line in general though is kind of meh. I Don't think oda did a good job with sanji or his family in whole cake island.
> 
> But knowing oda they aren't dead like they should be so of course they will show up again. We shall see what they do in the final war maybe I will like them more then haha


Yeah we will see; I hope they have a bigger and better role


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## Corax (Apr 22, 2020)

Green Bull is likely weaker than Fujitora if even a bit. Akainu gave him order to throw away Fujitora out of Marijoa. Fujitora openly provoked him to do something (if I am correct he said you can try) and GB said that he doesn't want to despite having an order.


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## Cyrus the Cactus (Apr 22, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @Sherlōck @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> Greenbull isn’t fighting Zoro.
> 
> Fujitora has been setup as Zoro enemy; with him being based on a legendary swordsman. Green Bull is likely Sanji’s enemy and his face is being kept hidden because he is likely related to Sanji in some way. He might be secretly Yonji or a hidden sibling.



Knowing Fujitora's personality, I highly doubt Fujitora is gonna fight the Straw Hats seriously. He's even a big fan of Luffy. If Zoro fights an admiral, it'll probably be Kizaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 23, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I hope not had enough with the shitty vinsmokes



I don't know I always wanted Sanji to fight Kizaru near EOS, with his emphasis and speed and kicks he is perfect Admiral opponent for him. I think most fans agreed with it once.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 24, 2020)

Emperors extreme diff each other, admirals extreme diff each other 

emperors high diff admirals

this is a pretty basic look, my real views are more nuanced


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## Beast (Apr 24, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Emperors extreme diff each other, admirals extreme diff each other
> 
> emperors high diff admirals
> 
> this is a pretty basic look, my real views are more nuanced


Why because admirals couldn’t one shot yonko commanders?


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 24, 2020)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Emperors extreme diff each other, admirals extreme diff each other
> 
> emperors high diff admirals
> 
> this is a pretty basic look, my real views are more nuanced



By "Emperors" do you also refer to MF version of WB?


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## xmysticgohanx (Apr 24, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Why because admirals couldn’t one shot yonko commanders?


I don’t have the commanders near each other in power. I have vista > Katakuri for example. Their feats and DB hype are way different. Not to mention that Oda thought it would be ok to give Queen a higher bounty than him.


Lord Melkor said:


> By "Emperors" do you also refer to MF version of WB?


 I’m undecided on how strong mf wb is.


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> *Admirals *
> 
> Akainu
> Aokiji
> ...


Im suprised people answered your post seriously given how childish you are.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mylesime (Apr 24, 2020)

When mother caramel stated that big mom had the potential to be a fleet admiral, it became pretty clear for me.
Only the absolute best of the admirals are on par with the yonkous, those in contention for the spot of fleet admiral, or with the level to pretend to be.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Nana said:


> if not for cheap tricks he would have been dead rn too much for his WSC title ... too much for always bet on him in a fight


The man got up and ran to oden and clubbed him in the instant it took for him to turn around, you really think he needed the hag? Oda also made it a point to have him kill the hag and apologize to Oden for her interference. And, again, his legend i believe really started after his fight with Oden. Notice how in his intro it says that he challenged the yonko and navy alike. Yonko didnt exist back then, im betting that he does it after his death.



Turrin said:


> 1- No proof he was angry at the time lol:
> 
> You need to prove he was able to immediately switch between anger to being calm enough to use CoO in that moment of surprise.
> 
> ...


Bro no top tier has any victory over another top tier besides fucking akainu, and that was for the post of FA and against a sick dying old man. What are you talking about? And you know how long that fight took? 10 fucking days, and youre saying he shouldve beaten big mom in 1 day? Are you trolling?



Red Admiral said:


> I can't see the first post cause who ever made it is on my ignore list
> 
> but
> 
> ...


Can you please tell me how to ignore people.



Turrin said:


> I don’t think you get what I’m saying.
> 
> WSC can’t be there to distinguish Kaidou as WS character above WSM, because WSP would still place WB above Kaidou.
> 
> ...


No man, that was a mistranslation and Red admiral corrected it, it simply said that shanks is scariest when angry.



Light D Lamperouge said:


> Time to have some fun.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kizaru was going to go run interference and stop the meeting and you know it. They tried to do the same when tried to stop shanks and WBs meeting by sending ships. But i know you dont believe that shit. You are a smart man after all.


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Kizaru was going to go run interference and stop the meeting and you know it. They tried to do the same when tried to stop shanks and WBs meeting by sending ships. But i know you dont believe that shit. You are a smart man after all.


My man, I literally said this  


Light D Lamperouge said:


> I might even have the chance to show the said strawmanning in a couple of posts if need be.


and this 


Light D Lamperouge said:


> Time to have some fun.


before posting it.


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> My man, I literally said this
> 
> and this
> 
> before posting it.


Gotcha, ive been fasting so i just skimmed through your post. Btw im fujishiro from that other website which shall not be named here. Glad to see you active here!


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Gotcha, ive been fasting so i just skimmed through your post. Btw im fujishiro from that other website which shall not be named here. Glad to see you active here!


Aye aye. I knew that lmao. Thanks.


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> Aye aye. I knew that lmao. Thanks.


How! Unless i told you before


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## Light D Lamperouge (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> How! Unless i told you before


You didn't tell me lmao. Well you said it yourself


OniKaido said:


> You are a smart man after all.



The posting style and the arguments felt familiar.


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Bro no top tier has any victory over another top tier besides fucking akainu, and that was for the post of FA and against a sick dying old man. What are you talking about? And you know how long that fight took? 10 fucking days, and youre saying he shouldve beaten big mom in 1 day? Are you trolling?


No other Top Tier has this 1v1 hype or it’s Stans throwing it into other people’s face as proof Kaidou is the best. If Kaidou has no wins against at Top Tier why should I take his 1v1 hearsay hype seriously?



OniKaido said:


> No man, that was a mistranslation and Red admiral corrected it, it simply said that shanks is scariest when angry.


I would need to see the raw myself then; but how could Shanks possibly scarier then Kaidou, if he’s weaker then him; it’s saying the same shit a different way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Light D Lamperouge said:


> You didn't tell me lmao. Well you said it yourself
> 
> 
> The posting style and the arguments felt familiar.


The style huh haha, well ill take that as a compliment , btw any Oler around here that plays world of warcraft? Looking for some buddies to play, heck any online game for that matter. Idk where to ask


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## RossellaFiamingo (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> The style huh haha, well ill take that as a compliment , btw any Oler around here that plays world of warcraft? Looking for some buddies to play, heck any online game for that matter. Idk where to ask


what region? haven't played in several months though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I would need to see the raw myself then; but how could Shanks possibly scarier then Kaidou, if he’s weaker then him; it’s saying the same shit a different way.


That translation just said he is scariest not scarier than kaido. You just added Kaido in. Kaido's one was that his mere existence is scary,big mom is scariest when she doesnt get what she wants and WB is scariest when you mess with his crew. Stop adding stuff to things that were never said.

And that translation was from the official french translation which i read. And someone well known in that other website named Ettenbobby( who is the guy who translate the japaenese scans spoilers before they come out) went to check the japanese version and made the correction i said.
Since it was faulty at first.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

RossellaFiamingo said:


> what region? haven't played in several months though.


Us!
There is a 100% exp boost thats gonna be going on till the release of the next expac which is months away, they also have a 100% rep one going for a month.


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> That translation just said he is scariest not scarier than kaido. You just added Kaido in. Kaido's one was that his mere existence is scary,big mom is scariest when she doesnt get what she wants and WB is scariest when you mess with his crew. Stop adding stuff to things that were never said.
> 
> And that translation was from the official french translation which i read. And someone well known in that other website named Ettenbobby( who is the guy who translate the japaenese scans spoilers before they come out) went to check the japanese version and made the correction i said.
> Since it was faulty at first.


If he’s the scariest then he is scarier then Kaidou; that much is obvious.

So wait we’re multiple translations deep now; from Japanese to French to English. Yeah I don’t put much faith in that. I can read Japanese so if you have the raw I’ll look at it otherwise I will remain skeptical until I do. Anyway the Shanks example is just one example anyway; there are others such as Enel being called a God which was clearly false hype. Or the contradiction between Kaidou hype and WB WSM/WSP hype.


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If he’s the scariest then he is scarier then Kaidou; that much is obvious.
> 
> So wait we’re multiple translations deep now; from Japanese to French to English. Yeah I don’t put much faith in that. I can read Japanese so if you have the raw I’ll look at it otherwise I will remain skeptical until I do. Anyway the Shanks example is just one example anyway; there are others such as Enel being called a God which was clearly false hype. Or the contradiction between Kaidou hype and WB WSM/WSP hype.


Jesus man, it means that he is scariest in comparison to himself as in he is the scariest when angry not against others. How hard is that to comprehend.

You are reading the english official trans for one piece correct? The french is just as official.
Except it was skypeians calling him that, not the entire world. In the ace novel the entire world refers to him as WSC( well world strongest living thing)


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Jesus man, it means that he is scariest in comparison to himself as in he is the scariest when angry not against others. How hard is that to comprehend.
> 
> You are reading the english official trans for one piece correct? The french is just as official.
> Except it was skypeians calling him that, not the entire world. In the ace novel the entire world refers to him as WSC( well world strongest living thing)


The context was talking about Shanks and the other Yonko; again I would need a raw to confirm.

I read the official translation; but for contentious statements I look at the Raws. 


Sure and in the Manga WB is WSM/WSP; so how can Kaidou be stronger then him?


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The context was talking about Shanks and the other Yonko; again I would need a raw to confirm.
> 
> I read the official translation; but for contentious statements I look at the Raws.
> 
> ...


In the ace novel, it was said that at the time where oldbeard was healthy, some considered kaido stronger than him as a fighter but WB was the strongest for his legacy and achievements.

French trans is as legit as english trans ya know. I dont have the raws on my hand but the guy who translates spoilers for wor,st gen made the correction from seing the post. its on their website, i dont think i can post the link here since its censored.


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> In the ace novel, it was said that at the time where oldbeard was healthy, some considered kaido stronger than him as a fighter but WB was the strongest for his legacy and achievements.
> 
> French trans is as legit as english trans ya know. I dont have the raws on my hand but the guy who translates spoilers for wor,st gen made the correction from seing the post. its on their website, i dont think i can post the link here since its censored.


It’s dubious how canon the Ace novel is though; and without a raw I can’t even confirm what was really said in it; so I don’t put much stock into that.

Yes I know the novel explanation for WSP is that it’s not a straightforward title that simple means WB is the Strongest Pirate in 1v1 combat but If the titles can be not straight forward; then I maintain Kaidou title also isn’t straight forward and simply refers to Non Human Beasts.


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## Fujitora (Apr 24, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s dubious how canon the Ace novel is though; and without a raw I can’t even confirm what was really said in it; so I don’t put much stock into that.
> 
> Yes I know the novel explanation for WSP is that it’s not a straightforward title that simple means WB is the Strongest Pirate in 1v1 combat but If the titles can be not straight forward; then I maintain Kaidou title also isn’t straight forward and simply refers to Non Human Beasts.


Its is not dubious at all, the author and oda and his assistants had several meetings over the making of the novel. Where the author had a question sheet for oda to go over and tell him what to do and what to write over there. Oda is 50 years old, the man wants to expand his universe outside the manga and thats his way of doing it. Most of the stuff thats been said in there will never show up in the manga. 
So yes, it is canon by Oda himself. He heavily oversaw what was going to be written on it and how. And shueisha advertised it as such too.
You can maintain that my friend, but since the novel outright states that Kaido> whitebeard at the time, then he is the closest to being the factual strongest person at the moment. Nothing in the manga disputes that by the way.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 25, 2020)

Scariest=/= Most powerful
This way: Doflamingo is scarier than Marco, or Mihawk, or dunno, Katakuri. They are way more chill than he is and not as ruthless. Yet that does not mean Mihawk wouldn't cut his penis into 1000 tiny pieces if he wanted to.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 25, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Im suprised people answered your post seriously given how childish you are.



I don't really give a shit that you find me calling names to fictional characters childish or not .

Or that you are butt hurt enough to call it  or quote me on it every chance you get to express your dissatisfaction about it.  

I am just saying what I am seeing. Saying I am acting childish but you are the one acting like one.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Its is not dubious at all, the author and oda and his assistants had several meetings over the making of the novel. Where the author had a question sheet for oda to go over and tell him what to do and what to write over there. Oda is 50 years old, the man wants to expand his universe outside the manga and thats his way of doing it. Most of the stuff thats been said in there will never show up in the manga.
> So yes, it is canon by Oda himself. He heavily oversaw what was going to be written on it and how. And shueisha advertised it as such too.
> You can maintain that my friend, but since the novel outright states that Kaido> whitebeard at the time, then he is the closest to being the factual strongest person at the moment. Nothing in the manga disputes that by the way.


So unless you think ever moment in the novel was derived from a Question sheet it is dubiously canon.

Actually it outright states people say Kaidou is > WB. People also say WB is WSM. Kaidou’s actual performances and place within the story dispute the idea.


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## Ren. (Apr 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Actually it outright states people say Kaidou is > WB.


A casual reader of OP says that!

Feats put Kaido way below Prime WB!


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## Duhul10 (Apr 25, 2020)

Ren. said:


> A casual reader of OP says that!
> 
> Feats put Kaido way below *Prime* WB!


below, indeed, way below, we do not know. appreciate the bolded.


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## Beast (Apr 25, 2020)

Prime WB is the funniest character alive, his prime lasted like 2 years it seems.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 25, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Prime WB is the funniest character alive, his prime lasted like 2 years it seems.


Mike Tyson vibes


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## Beast (Apr 25, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Mike Tyson vibes


Good thing we didn’t dig any deeper and find out that prime WB only lasted 1 fight


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## Ren. (Apr 25, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> below, indeed, way below, we do not know. appreciate the bolded.


Way below as in one was top top tier.

And Kaido is high top tier and currently strongest Yonko!

Damn I didn't know we have a Romanian beside me


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## Fujitora (Apr 25, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> I don't really give a shit that you find me calling names to fictional characters childish or not .
> 
> Or that you are butt hurt enough to call it  or quote me on it every chance you get to express your dissatisfaction about it.
> 
> I am just saying what I am seeing. Saying I am acting childish but you are the one acting like one.


It’s not about being butt hurt or not, it’s about having an actual conversation. When you label members of a certain group you are discussing in such a manner. It doesn’t really appeal for discussion mate. You are acting in a immature way and it’s pretty damning I must say.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 25, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> It’s not about being butt hurt or not, it’s about having an actual conversation. When you label members of a certain group you are discussing in such a manner. It doesn’t really appeal for discussion mate. You are acting in a immature way and it’s pretty damning I must say.



As I said, don't give a shit.

It's not my fault that one of the Yonko is a walking Meme and another one has a list of "L" the size of Russia. It's how the author presented those characters.

I am just having fun but you are the taking this shit hard. You are acting childish by constantly complaining about it. They are fictional characters. If you can't have a discussion cause I call them Meme & Laido, then fine. But you are also going around asking how can other people can even answer my question cause I called fictional characters names? Like your brain can't compute that shit.

Maybe it’s because you are fasting & low on blood suger or you are pathetically in love with fictional characters. Either way, I don't give a damn. If you can't have a conversation with me because of that then put me on ignore and be done with it.


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## Fujitora (Apr 25, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> As I said, don't give a shit.
> 
> It's not my fault that one of the Yonko is a walking Meme and another one has a list of "L" the size of Russia. It's how the author presented those characters.
> 
> ...


List of ls huh? and what are those? The other was put in an unfortunate situation where she had to be nerfed and ridiculed in order for the straw hats to survive and the plot to advance. Neverthless, you never see people doing the same to admirals, the fact that kizaru couldnt put down pre skip luffy multiple times or how he chose to hit the key instead of him, the same with sengoku failing to do anything notewhorty,etc. Its always the same disingenuous usual suspects who do this. I think you are a smart person and i liked your way ot thinking before, thats why i still read your threads, but dont tell me that calling characters names doesnt make you sounds like a petty person.
No,i am not in love with anything. Fact is this manga has been a disappointment lately and i couldnt care less what happens anymore. If kaido and bm dropped dead next chapter i wouldnt care, i just feel like there is no need for these sorts of names in an adult conversation.

Im saying that people will take you less seriously if you do so but hey man, you do you.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2020)

@OniKaido

Whether your think Kaidou hype is legit or not; can’t you at least see where people are coming from with the Laidou epithet?

Let’s just be honest for a second Oda has done a really poor job of substantiating Kaidou hype so far. He’s suppose to be the 1v1 King but he doesn’t have a single win against any Top Tier. I mean Oda has had so many opportunities to substantiate this hype. He could have easily said in Kaidou introduction; this is a man who has fought the Yonko and Marine Admirals in many occasions and won; instead he chooses to highlight his losses. He could have had it stated he beat some Top Tier during the Rocks indecent, but he doesn’t. He could have had Kaidou beat BM; or have BM admit she couldn’t win, but he has BM fight equally with him while handicapped.

Then in the same arc he builds up Oden as such a more substantiated top tier; then Kaidou; and he can’t even have Kaidou get a clean victory on Oden; not even high-diff with injury, he needs to have him rely on hostages.

Do you really not see why people doubt Kaidou hype? Do you not see why for some people it seems more likely that Kaidou is lying or even stealing Oden fame then being for real?

Just be honest man; if Kaidou really is the strongest Oda has done a shit job showing that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 25, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @OniKaido
> 
> Whether your think Kaidou hype is legit or not; can’t you at least see where people are coming from with the Laidou epithet?
> 
> ...


It is shaky, but hee didnt rely on hostages. That was entirely on orochi, kaido had nothing to do with that. I understand why it can be seen that way but the man killed the hag for interfering. What happened in the fight is that he got hit went down and in the heat of battle and while in pain saw oden turn around. He capitalized on it and clubbed him down. Then he saw the hag and had her killed. 

Thats the only L you may attribute to him. The losses you saw in his intro are fine? Because first of all. People's strength isnt static, coby from chapter 1 isnt the same as coby from now. Luffy lost multiple times yet he will become the strongest. And second we dont even know if these losses were 1vs1s or people ganging up on him. The man was shown to be a moody suicidal drunk who goes around doing stupid shit. Whats telling us he didnt just go into navy or yonko territory, fought there then got captured.
As for BM, you cant be serious. It was shown that a fight between top tiers lasts for days before determining a winner. You cant expect a clear winner in a 1 day fight. And you seem to be under the impression that when people say someone is the strongest that he is good deal stronger. No, imo its an akainu/aokiji scenario. Where if kaido is the strongest or anyone else its by a tiny margin. Enough to give him the edge in a fight after a while.

Thats the problem, your vision of strongest is skewed. You can be the strongest and yet not overwhelmingly so to high diff someone come on.

But i get where some of the critiques come from, i just feel like using these names on characters just detracts from the discussion is all.


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## AmitDS (Apr 26, 2020)

Kaido = Big Mom I thought that much was clear.


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## Corax (Apr 26, 2020)

Kaido's hype and title are fake. Would he have defeated at least someone like old Ray or old Sengoku. But he hasn't done even this. For me strongest guy should have at least 1 confirmed on panel (though this is OP but anyway) victory vs another top tier,even the weakest one.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> Kaido's hype and title are fake. Would he have defeated at least someone like old Ray or old Sengoku. *But he hasn't done even this*. For me strongest guy should have at least 1 confirmed on panel (though this is OP but anyway) victory vs another top tier,even the weakest one.


How tf do you know who he has defeated and who he has not ? Not to mention the great number of top tiers with no on panel victories.  You are complaining about the lack of on panel fights for a character written by the king of off-panelling himself.


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## Corax (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> How tf do you know who he has defeated and who he has not ? Not to mention the great number of top tiers with no on panel victories.  You are complaining about the lack of on panel fights for a character written by the king of off-panelling himself.


They aren't considered world strongest. But world strongest with no on panel victories vs top tiers? For example Garp took down the strongest pirate of his era. Even he has more feats to take this title.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> They aren't considered world strongest. But world strongest with no on panel victories vs top tiers? For example Garp took down the strongest pirate of his era. Even he has more feats to take this title.


Mihawk is WSS, what top tier has he defeated on panel ? That is just a logic you have forced upon yourself so that you can't accept the possibility of Kaido being what he is. The WSC.


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @OniKaido
> 
> Whether your think Kaidou hype is legit or not; can’t you at least see where people are coming from with the Laidou epithet?
> 
> ...


Despite all his captures, he still has the reputation of being unbeatable 1v1. I think it's pretty obvious that he was always beaten by teams of people as he challenged the marines and yonko solo. 

I don't think the phrase 'none can doubt that in a one on one Kaidou will always be the victor' was based on him not beating top tiers, if he was captured multiple times by top tiers. To me it indicates that when he was defeated more than one person was required.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> It is shaky, but hee didnt rely on hostages. That was entirely on orochi, kaido had nothing to do with that. I understand why it can be seen that way but the man killed the hag for interfering. What happened in the fight is that he got hit went down and in the heat of battle and while in pain saw oden turn around. He capitalized on it and clubbed him down. Then he saw the hag and had her killed.
> 
> Thats the only L you may attribute to him. The losses you saw in his intro are fine? Because first of all. People's strength isnt static, coby from chapter 1 isnt the same as coby from now. Luffy lost multiple times yet he will become the strongest. And second we dont even know if these losses were 1vs1s or people ganging up on him. The man was shown to be a moody suicidal drunk who goes around doing stupid shit. Whats telling us he didnt just go into navy or yonko territory, fought there then got captured.
> As for BM, you cant be serious. It was shown that a fight between top tiers lasts for days before determining a winner. You cant expect a clear winner in a 1 day fight. And you seem to be under the impression that when people say someone is the strongest that he is good deal stronger. No, imo its an akainu/aokiji scenario. Where if kaido is the strongest or anyone else its by a tiny margin. Enough to give him the edge in a fight after a while.
> ...


Whether it was his choice or not he “won” because of hostages; and Oda made a choice to not have Oden loose to Kaidou 1v1.

I don’t think you get it; it’s not that any of these things are bad; it’s that literally there is nothing that substantiates his hype. You say it’s like an Akainu/Aokiji scenario but Kaidou doesn’t even have a confirmed high/extreme diff win 1v1 on another Top Tier; or even another Top Tier saying that Kaidou is stronger then him.



Seraphoenix said:


> Despite all his captures, he still has the reputation of being unbeatable 1v1. I think it's pretty obvious that he was always beaten by teams of people as he challenged the marines and yonko solo.
> 
> I don't think the phrase 'none can doubt that in a one on one Kaidou will always be the victor' was based on him not beating top tiers, if he was captured multiple times by top tiers. To me it indicates that when he was defeated more than one person was required.


I think your missing the point; it’s that Kaidou has nothing to substantiate his hype is the problem; not that he has losses


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## Seraphoenix (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I think your missing the point; it’s that Kaidou has nothing to substantiate his hype is the problem; not that he has losses


The general consensus being that he is unbeatable 1v1 is enough for me. That and Oda confirming he is the benchmark for strength in an SBS.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> The general consensus being that he is unbeatable 1v1 is enough for me. That and Oda confirming he is the benchmark for strength in an SBS.


That being enough for you is fine; your entitle to your opinion; the problem is narratively speaking Oda has done a shit job showing that; if Kaidou hype doesn’t turn out to be a paper tiger situation


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That being enough for you is fine; your entitle to your opinion; the problem is narratively speaking Oda has done a shit job showing that; if Kaidou hype doesn’t turn out to be a paper tiger situation



Again why would Oda do all of that just for it to not be the case ? You've never answered this.

And if we use your logic.

Shanks has never beaten anyone. Teach has gotten ragdolled a couple of times. WB hurt Akainu with a sneak attack and he lost his face for it.


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

By Turrin's logic Mihawk's WSS title is crap because the only other legit swordsman he fought on panel, he ended up postponing the fight. 

So no Mihawk isn't WSS.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Again why would Oda do all of that just for it to not be the case ? You've never answered this.
> 
> And if we use your logic.
> 
> Shanks has never beaten anyone. Teach has gotten ragdolled a couple of times. WB hurt Akainu with a sneak attack and he lost his face for it.


Is this going to be another instance Dellinger when you ask me to speculate and then get upset when I do? Please try to realize this time you are asking me to speculate, thanks.

Oda is hyping Kaidou up because he is the first Yonko Luffy is going to beat and he’s been the main antagonist for the first half of Part 2. So Luffy beating Kaidou will be a huge moment for readers. However by make Kaidou title potentially refer only to None Humans; and his 1v1 shit be hersay (basically giving him some paper tiger qualities). That allows Oda to later scale back the hype natural in the next arc, saying Kaidou was a true living legend but not the strongest Man.

Like there could easily be a line from someone saying, “Man I can’t believe that Kaidou lost”. “Yeah it’s crazy to see a living legend fall, but Kaidou was only the World Strongest Beast, I think the real strongest right now is Insert X character here”. 

Or even something like “Kaidou held the title of the Strongest for so long, but this was due to his fame; in reality the strongest is someone from the up and comers; it’s now the age of Straw Hat, Red Hair, Black Beard, and Red Dog; now we can see who wins”

—-

That’s not my logic though. Shanks not beating anyone is irrelevant because Shanks doesn’t hold the 1v1 King Title; like Kaidou. Nor do I believe Shanks is the Strongest character.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> By Turrin's logic Mihawk's WSS title is crap because the only other legit swordsman he fought on panel, he ended up postponing the fight.
> 
> So no Mihawk isn't WSS.


Mihawk fought duels against a Yonko; who then lost his other arm; with the implication being that he could no longer challenge Mihawk in a sword duel after this evenly. Mihawk has also never lost a sword duel on panel; and Mihawk has a supreme grade black blade something no other Swordsman so far has achieved even Oden / Raleigh / Roger. Finally Mihawk isn’t going down this arc like Kaidou, therefore he has time to accumulate more feats and accomplishments; and being the best swords man doesn’t mean he’s always going to win 1v1 anyway it just means he’s the most skillful with his blade 

There is a lot more there to substantiate Mihawk title. In the case of Kaidoi their isn’t dick in terms of accomplishments to establish him as the 1v1 King; he hasn’t beaten anyone 1v1 ever in the story let alone a Top Tier. If you can’t be honest about this difference your just Stanning for Stan sake


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## Hardcore (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Mihawk fought duels against a Yonko; who then lost his other arm; with the implication being that he could no longer challenge Mihawk in a sword duel after this evenly. Mihawk has also never lost a sword duel on panel; and Mihawk has a supreme grade black blade something no other Swordsman so far has achieved even Oden / Raleigh / Roger. Finally Mihawk isn’t going down this arc like Kaidou, therefore he has time to accumulate more feats and accomplishments; and being the best swords man doesn’t mean he’s always going to win 1v1 anyway it just means he’s the most skillful with his blade



okay

and mihawk got serious against pre-skip luffy and didn't land a hit with two attempts

kaido one-shot luffy without fail

your point?

seriously people need to realize that there is no logical and fair way to decide who is superior atm as both sides have had their share of feats and portrayal, and things can quickly change

just wait


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Hardcore said:


> okay
> 
> and mihawk got serious against pre-skip luffy and didn't land a hit with two attempts
> 
> ...


If you think Mihawk was serious against Luffy, I don’t even know what to say to you to be honest

My point is that Mihawk title/fame isn’t the 1v1 King he is the most skilled swordsman; and so far he has a feat no other swordsman has been capable of; Turning his Supreme Grade Sword Black; not Oden, not Roger, not Shanks, not Raleigh, not even Ryuuma (his is great grade). That substantiates his hype as the most skillful swordsman; Kaidou doesn’t have dick to substantiate his hype as the 1v1 King; he hasnt even beaten a single Top Tier 1v1.

Mihawk doesn’t have to be able to beat any Top Tier to be the best swordman; Kaidou has to be able to beat them all to be the 1v1 King. See the difference


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Mihawk fought duels against a Yonko; who then lost his other arm; with the implication being that he could no longer challenge Mihawk in a sword duel after this evenly. Mihawk has also never lost a sword duel on panel; and Mihawk has a supreme grade black blade something no other Swordsman so far has achieved even Oden / Raleigh / Roger. Finally Mihawk isn’t going down this arc like Kaidou, therefore he has time to accumulate more feats and accomplishments; and being the best swords man doesn’t mean he’s always going to win 1v1 anyway it just means he’s the most skillful with his blade
> 
> There is a lot more there to substantiate Mihawk title. In the case of Kaidoi their isn’t dick in terms of accomplishments to establish him as the 1v1 King; he hasn’t beaten anyone 1v1 ever in the story let alone a Top Tier. If you can’t be honest about this difference your just Stanning for Stan sake



Shanks wasn't a Yonko.

Also Kaido has been fighting other Yonko and the Marines solo but you seem to ignore that as you do with every other FACT that we know about him.


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Is this going to be another instance Dellinger when you ask me to speculate and then get upset when I do? Please try to realize this time you are asking me to speculate, thanks.


Yes because you always spout nonsense. You think this is Naruto.



> Oda is hyping Kaidou up because he is the first Yonko Luffy is going to beat and he’s been the main antagonist for the first half of Part 2. So Luffy beating Kaidou will be a huge moment for readers. However by make Kaidou title potentially refer only to None Humans; and his 1v1 shit be hersay (basically giving him some paper tiger qualities). That allows Oda to later scale back the hype natural in the next arc, saying Kaidou was a true living legend but not the strongest Man.


You are wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous. Kaido is the last of the Yonko to be introduced, the 4 main pirates of the series. Oda had every chance to downplay him from the moment he got introduced yet he chose to hype him up even further.

You still try spouting nonsense about his title when even Oda himself said that it includes humans. I don't understand why you try so hard.

Also we got the bounties of the Yonko. Why did Oda again have Kaido being at the top there ? Why didn't he just put Shanks or Big Mom since you clearly imply that they are stronger ? Why hype him up even further in a chapter including all Yonko by stating that he is the only one who became one through sheer strength and has the highest bounty ?



> Like there could easily be a line from someone saying, “Man I can’t believe that Kaidou lost”. “Yeah it’s crazy to see a living legend fall, but Kaidou was only the World Strongest Beast, I think the real strongest right now is Insert X character here”.



Headcanon.



> Or even something like “Kaidou held the title of the Strongest for so long, but this was due to his fame; in reality the strongest is someone from the up and comers; it’s now the age of Straw Hat, Red Hair, Black Beard, and Red Dog; now we can see who wins”



You seem to be confusing Kaido with WB here. Kaido is at the top of his form here. The situation you just described fits WB more.

—-



> That’s not my logic though. Shanks not beating anyone is irrelevant because Shanks doesn’t hold the 1v1 King Title; like Kaidou. Nor do I believe Shanks is the Strongest character.



Ok let's do this again.

WB never beat anyone on panel aside from Ace.

Roger didn't either actually he needed help to beat his biggest rival. So by your logic Roger wasn't the strongest.

I think I'll make a certain posts with manga panels and that will be the reply I'll be giving to Turrin from now on. Dude is really tiresome.


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## CaptainCommander (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That being enough for you is fine; your entitle to your opinion; the problem is narratively speaking Oda has done a shit job showing that; if Kaidou hype doesn’t turn out to be a paper tiger situation



That sounds like a you problem. Oda did his job of clearly stating who is the strongest and your narrative of needing a confirmed win against all the other top tiers would mean there is no story.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Shanks wasn't a Yonko.
> 
> Also Kaido has been fighting other Yonko and the Marines solo but you seem to ignore that as you do with every other FACT that we know about him.


Again Mihawk title isn’t the 1v1 King; don’t see what your failing to understand


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Yes because you always spout nonsense. You think this is Naruto.
> 
> 
> You are wrong on so many levels it's ridiculous. Kaido is the last of the Yonko to be introduced, the 4 main pirates of the series. Oda had every chance to downplay him from the moment he got introduced yet he chose to hype him up even further.
> ...


So agin your asking me the speculate and the complaining about it. I’m done here


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Again Mihawk title isn’t the 1v1 King; don’t see what your failing to understand


It’s not a 1v1 king but it’s a 1v1 title in a certain aspect yet we haven’t seen him beating anyone


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> It’s not a 1v1 king but it’s a 1v1 title in a certain aspect yet we haven’t seen him beating anyone


No it’s not; Mihawk could loose to every Top Tier in 1v1 combat and still be the best Swordsman in the world.

Kaidou is proclaimed 1v1 King without even winning a single fight against a Top Tier to our knowledge. It’s like someone being called the heavy weight champion of the world and not winning a single title match.



CaptainCommander said:


> That sounds like a you problem. Oda did his job of clearly stating who is the strongest and your narrative of needing a confirmed win against all the other top tiers would mean there is no story.


Stating something doesn’t mean it was crafted well into the narrative; if it’s Oda intent he did a poor job illustrating it thus far


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No it’s not; Mihawk could loose to every Top Tier in 1v1 combat and still be the best Swordsman in the world.
> 
> Kaidou is proclaimed 1v1 King without even winning a single fight against a Top Tier to our knowledge. It’s like someone being called the heavy weight champion of the world and not winning a single title match.
> 
> ...


Then what about Roger and WB ? 

also how has Oda done a poor job with Kaido ? I mean:

he can’t die

jumped from a sky island for laughs. 

Big Mom would have died falling from her castle

one shot Luffy

And more which I won’t bring again


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

well Mihawk has no wins on panel against high tiers either so does that mean he is the weakest high tier ?


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Then what about Roger and WB ?
> 
> also how has Oda done a poor job with Kaido ? I mean:
> 
> ...


Roger wasn’t stated to be the 1v1 King ether. He was PK, and we are told exactly what he did to earn that title by conquering the ocean and reaching Raftel. 

WB being WSM while Sick/Old is something that Is held in contention. You would probably tell me Kaidou > Old/Sick WB right? Even still Old/Sick WB actually beat down another Top Tier Akainu; and is therefore supports his title more then Kaidou does. 

—-

Yeah defeating Luffy who isn’t close to Top Tier (and not even using his best skills) doesn’t even come close to supporting his 1v1 King hype. To support that he needs a confirmed win against the second strongest Top Tier; or confirmed wins against multiple Top Tiers; or Multiple Top Tiers saying they can’t beat Kaidou 1v1. He doesn’t have any of that. 

Surviving his fall from sky island proves his durability; it doesn’t prove his title, period. 

Why is it so hard to just be honest and admit Oda hasn’t done shit to support Kaidou title.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> well Mihawk has no wins on panel against high tiers either so does that mean he is the weakest high tier ?


You guys need to stop repeating the same old argument; Mihawk title isn’t the 1v1 King so that doesn’t matter for him. He need no wins to substantiate his hype.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You guys need to stop repeating the same old argument; Mihawk title isn’t the 1v1 King so that doesn’t matter for him. He need no wins to substantiate his hype.


So you admit that Mihawk is high tier at best ? I am just repeating your logic bro.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> So you admit that Mihawk is high tier at best ? I am just repeating your logic bro.


But your not; so your just trolling


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## Sherlōck (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> @Sherlōck @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> Greenbull isn’t fighting Zoro.
> 
> Fujitora has been setup as Zoro enemy; with him being based on a legendary swordsman.



I disagree.

If anything Fujitora along with a BC is going to fight SHC after Wano as he accepted the mission of taking down Luffy from Akainu.   



Turrin said:


> Green Bull is likely Sanji’s enemy and his face is being kept hidden because he is likely related to Sanji in some way. He might be secretly Yonji or a hidden sibling.





Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I hope not had enough with the shitty vinsmokes



I don't subscribe to GB being Vinsmoke theory.

Though now that I think about it Sora can be GB.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But your not; so your just trolling


Gotcha


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Gotcha


Trololo


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## CaptainCommander (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> No it’s not; Mihawk could loose to every Top Tier in 1v1 combat and still be the best Swordsman in the world.
> 
> Kaidou is proclaimed 1v1 King without even winning a single fight against a Top Tier to our knowledge. It’s like someone being called the heavy weight champion of the world and not winning a single title match.
> 
> ...



That's your opinion.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

CaptainCommander said:


> That's your opinion.


It’s not opinion.

Fact Kaidou hype is that he is 1v1 King
Fact Mihawk hype is not that he is 1v1 King


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s not opinion.
> 
> Fact Kaidou hype is that he is 1v1 King
> Fact Mihawk hype is not that he is 1v1 King



Fact Kaido's hype is Oda telling us numerous times who Kaido is, both inside the manga and outside of it. Whether you are satisfied about his lack of on-panel fights in his prime or not, it bears no importance to anyone else my friend.


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## Corax (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Mihawk is WSS, what top tier has he defeated on panel ? That is just a logic you have forced upon yourself so that you can't accept the possibility of Kaido being what he is. The WSC.


Mihawk's tite isn't WSC. And we at least know that he has had legendary duels with Shanks. Is Shanks now currently swordsman number 2 we don't know but this is at least something. For Kaido nothing can't be said at all. Has he had legendary duel series vs yonko?No. Has he defeated another top tiers?No. Has he been defeated many times?Yes. Has he been defeated on panel by samurai?Yes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Fact Kaido's hype is Oda telling us numerous times who Kaido is, both inside the manga and outside of it. Whether you are satisfied about his lack of on-panel fights in his prime or not, it bears no importance to anyone else my friend.


It bares importance to my point that Oda has not supported Kaidou hype with actual accomplishments.

It’s fine you believe the hype; it’s not fine to claim it’s been well supported with accomplishments


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It bares importance to my point that Oda has not supported Kaidou hype with actual accomplishments.
> 
> It’s fine you believe the hype; it’s not fine to claim it’s been well supported with accomplishments


Kaido has lots of things to put him up there. Others have stated them ( @Dellinger for example ) so I won't do that again. you do not believe Kaido is the WSC because... well no particular reason, but at the same time you believe Mihawk is the WSS . I incline to believe both, thank you.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> Mihawk's tite isn't WSC. And we at least know that he has had legendary duels with Shanks. Is Shanks now currently swordsman number 2 we don't know but this is at least something. For Kaido nothing can't be said at all. Has he had legendary duel series vs yonko?No. Has he defeated another top tiers?No. Has he been defeated many times?Yes. Has he been defeated on panel by samurai?Yes.


And Kaido has fought Big Mom. Another yonko and not in their youth + panels, unlike shanks and mihawk. Has he been defeated many times ? Yes. In his prime ? most likely not. By one opponent? most likely not. Has he been defeated on panel by samurai ? No, he has been cut and then the fight was interrupted. After the pause, he proceeded to oneshot + not in his prime at all.
I would like to add some 
Can he die ? No
Does he have the highest bounty out of the current yonko ? Yes
Does Oda put him above Akainu ? Yes
Does Oden believe he will become invincible for the next 20 years ? Yes
Did Doffy shit his pants when hearing about him even though he has royal blood ? Yes
and so on, and so forth...


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## Corax (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> And Kaido has fought Big Mom. Another yonko and not in their youth + panels, unlike shanks and mihawk. Has he been defeated many times ? Yes. In his prime ? most likely not. By one opponent? most likely not. Has he been defeated on panel by samurai ? No, he has been cut and then the fight was interrupted. After the pause, he proceeded to oneshot + not in his prime at all.
> I would like to add some
> Can he die ? No
> Does he have the highest bounty out of the current yonko ? Yes
> ...


And his match vs nerfed BM ended in a draw. Only fight vs top tier he has had in many years. Clearly WSC should have defeated her or at least get a comment from her on how monstrous he is and she can't beat him or something.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido has lots of things to put him up there. Others have stated them ( @Dellinger for example ) so I won't do that again. you do not believe Kaido is the WSC because... well no particular reason, but at the same time you believe Mihawk is the WSS . I incline to believe both, thank you.


No he doesn’t. His best 1v1 win is against Luffy who isn’t top tier.


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> And his match vs nerfed BM ended in a draw. Only fight vs top tier he has had in many years. Clearly WSC should have defeated her or at least get a comment from her on how monstrous he is and she can't beat him or something.


Kaido wasnt using hi full power either


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## Corax (Apr 26, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Kaido wasnt using hi full power either


We don't know it. But we know that BM had only 1 homie.


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## Dellinger (Apr 26, 2020)

Corax said:


> We don't know it. But we know that BM had only 1 homie.



We know it because he was in his base form.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fujitora (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Whether it was his choice or not he “won” because of hostages; and Oda made a choice to not have Oden loose to Kaidou 1v1.
> 
> I don’t think you get it; it’s not that any of these things are bad; it’s that literally there is nothing that substantiates his hype. You say it’s like an Akainu/Aokiji scenario but Kaidou doesn’t even have a confirmed high/extreme diff win 1v1 on another Top Tier; or even another Top Tier saying that Kaidou is stronger then him.
> 
> ...


Except no top tier won against another besides akainu. You have big mom saying that luffy and co would never win against him and calling him a thing, you have Blackbeard calling him a monster. You’re acting as if other top tiers have won against another. 
He is also the only top tier to one shot a fm, that’s hype in and of itself, he is also one that litteraly an entire prophecy requiring one piece Jesus centers on. You can’t say his hype doesn’t differentiate from other top tiers. Then you have the ace novel in which they states that he is the better fighter between him and healthy whitebeard. The problem you have is that we didn’t see him go remotely serious. That will be remedied to in this war.
I’m saying that he has the most claim to be the strongest and that’s valid.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Except no top tier won against another besides akainu. You have big mom saying that luffy and co would never win against him and calling him a thing, you have Blackbeard calling him a monster. You’re acting as if other top tiers have won against another.
> He is also the only top tier to one shot a fm, that’s hype in and of itself, he is also one that litteraly an entire prophecy requiring one piece Jesus centers on. You can’t say his hype doesn’t differentiate from other top tiers. Then you have the ace novel in which they states that he is the better fighter between him and healthy whitebeard. The problem you have is that we didn’t see him go remotely serious. That will be remedied to in this war.
> I’m saying that he has the most claim to be the strongest and that’s valid.


Again no other Top Tier has the title 1v1 King; I’m not sure why you keep ignoring this glaring difference. If Kaidou hype wasn’t 1v1 King we wouldn’t be having this discussion. 

And I didn’t say his hype doesn’t differentiate him from other top tiers; I said so far Oda has not supported his hype with actual feats/statements/accomplishments. He’s the 1v1 King with zero wins against Top Tiers. 

By hype right now he’s the strongest 1v1; by actual accomplishments that would be Akainu as he actually beat another Top Tier (Aokiji). Depends what you value more accomplishments or hype.


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## Fujitora (Apr 26, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Again no other Top Tier has the title 1v1 King; I’m not sure why you keep ignoring this glaring difference. If Kaidou hype wasn’t 1v1 King we wouldn’t be having this discussion.
> 
> And I didn’t say his hype doesn’t differentiate him from other top tiers; I said so far Oda has not supported his hype with actual feats/statements/accomplishments. He’s the 1v1 King with zero wins against Top Tiers.
> 
> By hype right now he’s the strongest 1v1; by actual accomplishments that would be Akainu as he actually beat another Top Tier (Aokiji). Depends what you value more accomplishments or hype.


I agree with you in that point, we will see how he got the 1vs1 title. I value the authors words over current manga feats, that’s also why some put dragon as strongest even tho the man is just hype but no feats. 

Yes we have no showing of him beating a top tier but i don’t see why oda would be lying.especially since he didn’t mention it just once but multiple times.


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## Rp4lyf (Apr 26, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Except no top tier won against another besides akainu. You have big mom saying that luffy and co would never win against him and calling him a thing, you have Blackbeard calling him a monster. You’re acting as if other top tiers have won against another.
> He is also the only top tier to one shot a fm, that’s hype in and of itself, he is also one that litteraly an entire prophecy requiring one piece Jesus centers on. You can’t say his hype doesn’t differentiate from other top tiers. Then you have the ace novel in which they states that he is the better fighter between him and healthy whitebeard. The problem you have is that we didn’t see him go remotely serious. That will be remedied to in this war.
> I’m saying that he has the most claim to be the strongest and that’s valid.


Marineford Garp one shot Marco.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I agree with you in that point, we will see how he got the 1vs1 title. I value the authors words over current manga feats, that’s also why some put dragon as strongest even tho the man is just hype but no feats.
> 
> Yes we have no showing of him beating a top tier but i don’t see why oda would be lying.especially since he didn’t mention it just once but multiple times.


I don’t think it’s a matter of Oda lying. All Oda says is that people say to bet on Kaidou in 1v1. Kaidou and BM are the only two Pirates left from Rogers Era; and as such are the most infamous with the biggest bounties. And among those 2 Kaidou more infamous (Bigger Bounty) and is in his physical Prime, while BM is getting Older and further way form her Prime. It’s not surprising that many people would place their bets on Kaidou to be the Strongest 1v1. He’s a living legend still on his Prime and that’s what Oda is conveying to readers.

Like I’m sure that most people would bet Kaidou and BM over Shanks and Teach simply due to their infamy being far less and their powers being less known then Kaidou’s. I don’t think the 1v1 bet on Kaidou is suppose to be taken seriously to the extent the forum takes it; where it’s literally means Kaidou is the strongest 1v1; I think it just means he’s the most proven Top Tier with the longest career so people would bet on him; more then anyone whose new to the game; I mean even Akainu is new to the game in comparison to Kaidou.

That’s why it’s Bet on Kaidou; not Kaidou definitely wins


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## Fujitora (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t think it’s a matter of Oda lying. All Oda says is that people say to bet on Kaidou in 1v1. Kaidou and BM are the only two Pirates left from Rogers Era; and as such are the most infamous with the biggest bounties. And among those 2 Kaidou more infamous (Bigger Bounty) and is in his physical Prime, while BM is getting Older and further way form her Prime. It’s not surprising that many people would place their bets on Kaidou to be the Strongest 1v1. He’s a living legend still on his Prime and that’s what Oda is conveying to readers.
> 
> Like I’m sure that most people would bet Kaidou and BM over Shanks and Teach simply due to their infamy being far less and their powers being less known then Kaidou’s. I don’t think the 1v1 bet on Kaidou is suppose to be taken seriously to the extent the forum takes it; where it’s literally means Kaidou is the strongest 1v1; I think it just means he’s the most proven Top Tier with the longest career so people would bet on him; more then anyone whose new to the game; I mean even Akainu is new to the game in comparison to Kaidou.
> 
> That’s why it’s Bet on Kaidou; not Kaidou definitely wins


So now youve switched into what you think oda means by whats hes saying? Im sure the man knows more than what you think he should mean. The man has been hyping kaido everywhere, the ace novel is the latest. I can get where you are coming from but until proven otherwise, kaido is the strongest.


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> So now youve switched into what you think oda means by whats hes saying? Im sure the man knows more than what you think he should mean. The man has been hyping kaido everywhere, the ace novel is the latest. I can get where you are coming from but until proven otherwise, kaido is the strongest.


I’m not switching anything; you asked my to speculate on why Oda would hype Kaidou up this way; my answer is that it make sense from in the  narrative that most people would bet on Kaidou to win 1v1; but most people probably are just going of infamy and are underestimating the more recent additions to Top Tier like Shanks, Teach, Luffy, Akainu, etc...

If you don’t want me to speculate don’t ask a question that requires it


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## Dellinger (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I’m not switching anything; you asked my to speculate on why Oda would hype Kaidou up this way; my answer is that it make sense from in the  narrative that most people would bet on Kaidou to win 1v1; but most people probably are just going of infamy and are underestimating the more recent additions to Top Tier like Shanks, Teach, Luffy, Akainu, etc...
> 
> If you don’t want me to speculate don’t ask a question that requires it


How are Akainu and Shanks recent additions ? Heck Kaido is around Akainus age


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> How are Akainu and Shanks recent additions ? Heck Kaido is around Akainus age


In comparison to Kaidou both are.

Kaidou was an active Big Name Pirate during the Era of Rocks; Shanks was a cabin boy on Rogers Crew at the time; and Akainu seemingly wasn’t even an Admiral Yet. Kaidou also held the title of Yonko long before Akainu became FA or Shanks got the Yonko Title.

The only other characters that have Kaidou record are past their primes or dead like Roger, Shiki, BM, WB, Kong, Sengoku/Garp. He’s the final legend of that era in perfect condition all this time.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In comparison to Kaidou both are.
> 
> Kaidou was an active Big Name Pirate during the Era of Rocks; Shanks was a cabin boy on Rogers Crew at the time; and Akainu seemingly wasn’t even an Admiral Yet. Kaidou also held the title of Yonko long before Akainu became FA or Shanks got the Yonko Title.
> 
> The only other characters that have Kaidou record are past their primes or dead like Roger, Shiki, BM, WB, Kong, Sengoku/Garp. He’s the final legend of that era in perfect condition all this time.


Kaido was a novice during the Era of Rocks. Saying Akainu is a more recent addition to top tier is pure assumption with no foundation. Plus, iirc the Ace novel actually puts Kaido a generation after the likes of BM even. For this part I may be wrong, yet my point stands.


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## Dellinger (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In comparison to Kaidou both are.
> 
> Kaidou was an active Big Name Pirate during the Era of Rocks; Shanks was a cabin boy on Rogers Crew at the time; and Akainu seemingly wasn’t even an Admiral Yet. Kaidou also held the title of Yonko long before Akainu became FA or Shanks got the Yonko Title.
> 
> The only other characters that have Kaidou record are past their primes or dead like Roger, Shiki, BM, WB, Kong, Sengoku/Garp. He’s the final legend of that era in perfect condition all this time.


Kaido has the same rank Marco and Shanks when he was in Rocks. He was an apprentice

also ace novel says Kaido is from the same gen with Shanks ie he rose to power after Rogers death

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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido was a novice during the Era of Rocks. Saying Akainu is a more recent addition to top tier is pure assumption with no foundation. Plus, iirc the Ace novel actually puts Kaido a generation after the likes of BM even. For this part I may be wrong, yet my point stands.


Kaidou was still featured as one of the Headliners in the Rocks Pirates and he is still infamous as one of them. In contrast Akainu had not even joined the Marines at this point as he didn’t join until he was 23 and he was 17 when Rocks Pirates were finally defeated. Even by the time Kaidou took over wano and was an infamous Pirate 25 Years who Akainu was only in the marines for 5 Years and we know his rank was Vice Admiral or lower as he was still a VA for at least another 5 Years. Record wise Akainu is a more recent addition compared to Kaidou and he wasn’t around during Roger’s Era at all the way Kaidou was.


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## Dellinger (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Kaidou was still featured as one of the Headliners in the Rocks Pirates and he is still infamous as one of them. In contrast Akainu had not even joined the Marines at this point as he didn’t join until he was 23 and he was 17 when Rocks Pirates were finally defeated. Even by the time Kaidou took over wano and was an infamous Pirate 25 Years who Akainu was only in the marines for 5 Years and we know his rank was Vice Admiral or lower as he was still a VA for at least another 5 Years. Record wise Akainu is a more recent addition compared to Kaidou and he wasn’t around during Roger’s Era at all the way Kaidou was.


Kaido was apprentice dude. He was in his teens back then just like Akainu joined when he was 23


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Kaido has the same rank Marco and Shanks when he was in Rocks. He was an apprentice
> 
> also ace novel says Kaido is from the same gen with Shanks ie he rose to power after Rogers death


No he was an apprentice when he joined; by the time Rocks had their final battle he was featured as a main player.

So again your taking dubiously canon novel over the manga which shows Kaidou as much older then Shanks and on the front lines of the Rocks Pirates?


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Kaido was apprentice dude. He was in his teens back then just like Akainu joined when he was 23


Doesn’t matter how old Kaidou was he was featured as one of the major players in Rocks; Akainu wasn’t even in the marines at this time lol


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## Dellinger (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t matter how old Kaidou was he was featured as one of the major players in Rocks; Akainu wasn’t even in the marines at this time lol


Do you realize what an apprentice is ? How many times do I have to tell you ? Kaido had the same rank Marco had 20 plus years ago, same with Shanks also


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## Duhul10 (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Doesn’t matter how old Kaidou was he was featured as one of the major players in Rocks; Akainu wasn’t even in the marines at this time lol


He was stronger then, he is stronger now. That does not mean Rocks Kaido was top tier, nor that the difference in time would be that massive so that people would know Kaido, but not Akainu.


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> Do you realize what an apprentice is ? How many times do I have to tell you ? Kaido had the same rank Marco had 20 plus years ago, same with Shanks also


Kaidou Rank doesn’t mean anything; what matters is he was still prominent among the crew for his strength and fighting on the front lines. When Sengoku thinks of Rocks Kaidou is one of the main Pirates he thinks of alongside BM, Xebec, and WB. When they talk about Rocks coming back together they are talking about Kaidou and BM alliance. When Sengoku thinks back to Roger and Garp fighting Rocks; the characters they show clashing with them are BM, Kaidou, WB, and Xebec.


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> He was stronger then, he is stronger now. That does not mean Rocks Kaido was top tier, nor that the difference in time would be that massive so that people would know Kaido, but not Akainu.


I didn’t say Kaidou Rocks was top tier; I said Kaidou is much more infamous throughout history then Akainu because he was a headliner in Rocks during the age of Roger; before Akainu even joined the Marines.


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## Beast (Apr 27, 2020)

Dellinger said:


> By Turrin's logic Mihawk's WSS title is crap because the only other legit swordsman he fought on panel, he ended up postponing the fight.
> 
> So no Mihawk isn't WSS.


Not losing is better then not winning.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 27, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Not losing is better then not winning.


no, it's not.


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## Beast (Apr 27, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> no, it's not.


Not winning could mean you have lost... but not losing, well it’s either a draw or a win.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 27, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Not winning could mean you have lost... but not losing, well it’s either a draw or a win.


losing means you have lost, not winning means you were close to do it or not too close to do it gag discussion anyway...


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## Beast (Apr 27, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> losing means you have lost, not winning means you were close to do it or not too close to do it gag discussion anyway...


Its a discussion for the more WOKE people. Wake up and stop sleeping brother, it’s not yet time for our slumber. 
Mihawks never lost a fight but doesn’t mean he has won every single one... you catch my drift.


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## Fujitora (Apr 27, 2020)

Turrin said:


> *No he was an apprentice when he joined; by the time Rocks had their final battle he was featured as a main player.*
> 
> So again your taking dubiously canon novel over the manga which shows Kaidou as much older then Shanks and on the front lines of the Rocks Pirates?


See, again, there it is. You going off your headcanon. You gotta stop that man, i really wanna have a discussion with you but you cant stop doing this it seems. The manga litteraly says that although he was an apprentice, he rose to yonko position through sheer might. Nothing about him not being an apprentice only at the begining.



Turrin said:


> Kaidou Rank doesn’t mean anything; what matters is he was still prominent among the crew for his strength and fighting on the front lines. When Sengoku thinks of Rocks Kaidou is one of the main Pirates he thinks of alongside BM, Xebec, and WB. When they talk about Rocks coming back together they are talking about Kaidou and BM alliance. When Sengoku thinks back to Roger and Garp fighting Rocks; the characters they show clashing with them are BM, Kaidou, WB, and Xebec.


And actually sengoku just outlined the member of rocks that would make a name for themselves, ofc he would highlight kaido even though in his fucking bounty description it says he was just an apprentice. Did you want him to put some random fighter dude we knew nothing about?



Corax said:


> Mihawk's tite isn't WSC. And we at least know that he has had legendary duels with Shanks. Is Shanks now currently swordsman number 2 we don't know but this is at least something. For Kaido nothing can't be said at all. Has he had legendary duel series vs yonko?No. Has he defeated another top tiers?No. Has he been defeated many times?Yes. Has he been defeated on panel by samurai?Yes.


Bruh, fighting shanks 12 years ago when he was not yonko level isnt an accomplishment for mihawk, and dont start he was defeated by oden crap. He wasnt, the fight was inconclusive on purpose.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Apr 28, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Bruh, fighting shanks 12 years ago when he was not yonko level isnt an accomplishment for mihawk, and dont start he was defeated by oden crap. He wasnt, the fight was inconclusive on purpose.


He used a hostage and backstab to turn the tables. Before it he was wide open for finishing blow. Clearly this fight wasn't fair towards Oden.


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## Fujitora (Apr 28, 2020)

Corax said:


> He used a hostage and backstab to turn the tables. Before it he was wide open for finishing blow. Clearly this fight wasn't fair towards Oden.


Correction, orochi/hag used a hostage. Next time, try to stick to the facts to atleast look objective. Kaido had nothing to do with it.


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## Corax (Apr 28, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Correction, orochi/hag used a hostage. Next time, try to stick to the facts to atleast look objective. Kaido had nothing to do with it.


Kaido back stabbed him as soon as he turned away. Instead of continuing the fair fight. It is irrelevant who was used as a distraction. Fight was not fair and it is clear. In a fair fight Kaido was moments away from death.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Corax said:


> Kaido back stabbed him as soon as he turned away. Instead of continuing the fair fight. It is irrelevant who was used as a distraction. Fight was not fair and it is clear. In a fair fight Kaido *was moments away from death*.


Based on ? The fact that he was cut and fell ? Apparently the cut could only keep him down for a couple of seconds. Maybe with 10 cuts, sure he would have died


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> See, again, there it is. You going off your headcanon. You gotta stop that man, i really wanna have a discussion with you but you cant stop doing this it seems. The manga litteraly says that although he was an apprentice, he rose to yonko position through sheer might. Nothing about him not being an apprentice only at the begining.
> 
> 
> And actually sengoku just outlined the member of rocks that would make a name for themselves, ofc he would highlight kaido even though in his fucking bounty description it says he was just an apprentice. Did you want him to put some random fighter dude we knew nothing about?
> ...


Ultimately Kaidou title on the crew doesn’t matter. We see Kaidou as a teenager fighting on the front lines against Roger and WB:

This is VERY different then Shanks who was 1 years old at the time barely off the bottle; or Akainu who wouldn’t even join the Marines for another 5~6. If you want to talk about having an honest conversation, you need to Admit that Kaidou being an apprentice or not doesn’t change the fact that he was a legend long before Akainu and Shanks careers even started


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## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Based on ? The fact that he was cut and fell ? Apparently the cut could only keep him down for a couple of seconds. Maybe with 10 cuts, sure he would have died


Kaidou would have died... not sure why people act as if Oden could if he landed his attack. He clearly has the power and strength to do so.


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## Fujitora (Apr 28, 2020)

Corax said:


> Kaido back stabbed him as soon as he turned away. Instead of continuing the fair fight. It is irrelevant who was used as a distraction. Fight was not fair and it is clear. In a fair fight Kaido was moments away from death.


The whole thing was in an instant, kaido just saw him turn around and capitalized on that. He saw the hag after Oden went down. And no, he wasnt ''moments away from death'' if he covered the ground and clubbed oden in a second. Chances are he wouldve blocked that attack anyways. And Oden was yelling to him to not come back to wano, you dont say that to someone you're ''moments away from killing''.

@MasterBeast except the fact that kaido got up and ran to oden and clubbed him in the instant it took for oden to turn around to look at momo tells us that he may have blocked that next attack anyways. Why act like he cant if thee manga heavily points towards it?
@Turrin no, sengoku mentioned their names and how they would go on to make names of themselves, not that he was a legend back then, he just called him an apprentice. And ofc he would show him there because he is a figure we know. Want him to show a random fighter dude instead?


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> The whole thing was in an instant, kaido just saw him turn around and capitalized on that. He saw the hag after Oden went down. And no, he wasnt ''moments away from death'' if he covered the ground and clubbed oden in a second. Chances are he wouldve blocked that attack anyways. And Oden was yelling to him to not come back to wano, you dont say that to someone you're ''moments away from killing''.
> 
> @MasterBeast except the fact that kaido got up and ran to oden and clubbed him in the instant it took for oden to turn around to look at momo tells us that he may have blocked that next attack anyways. Why act like he cant if thee manga heavily points towards it?
> @Turrin no, sengoku mentioned their names and how they would go on to make names of themselves, not that he was a legend back then, he just called him an apprentice. And ofc he would show him there because he is a figure we know. Want him to show a random fighter dude instead?


What do you mean no; I literally showed you the panel where Sengoku thinks back to the battle and it’s Kaidou + BM + WB + Xebec vs Roger and Garp. You can’t just say no.


And even if you want to deny on panel proof; the fact that Kaidou was part of Rocks whether apprentice or otherwise; a legendary pirate crew while, Shanks was 1 Year old and Akainu wasn’t even a cabin boy in the marines yet; shows that Kaidou was gaining infamy long before the other 2 period


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## Fujitora (Apr 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What do you mean no; I literally showed you the panel where Sengoku thinks back to the battle and it’s Kaidou + BM + WB + Xebec vs Roger and Garp. You can’t just say no.
> 
> 
> And even if you want to deny on panel proof; the fact that Kaidou was part of Rocks whether apprentice or otherwise; a legendary pirate crew while, Shanks was 1 Year old and Akainu wasn’t even a cabin boy in the marines yet; shows that Kaidou was gaining infamy long before the other 2 period


Piped out the rocks pirates, nothing about kaido being a legend as you claim back then, in the same chapter after saying this. He goes on to say that kaido was just an apprentice back then. So again, no. On panel proof? Thats rich coming from you mate, really rich. Nothing in the panel sent me proves anything, just that they fought the rocks pirates.

I agree with you on the last part, yet when he fought Oden, kaido didnt seem that known yet, so his ''infamy'' was gained in the 20 years gap between then and now.


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## Skaddix (Apr 28, 2020)

I mean of the big 5 showed off in the image....Kaido was probably the weakest at the time...the big 5 being Xebec, Whitebeard, Shiki, Big Mom and Kaido. Since Kaido was only an apprentice. I think its clear Xebec is the strongest at the time, Whitebard probably second, you can debate Big Mom and Shiki in third and Kaido is at the bottom of those 5.


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## Turrin (Apr 28, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Piped out the rocks pirates, nothing about kaido being a legend as you claim back then, in the same chapter after saying this. He goes on to say that kaido was just an apprentice back then. So again, no. On panel proof? Thats rich coming from you mate, really rich. Nothing in the panel sent me proves anything, just that they fought the rocks pirates.
> 
> I agree with you on the last part, yet when he fought Oden, kaido didnt seem that known yet, so his ''infamy'' was gained in the 20 years gap between then and now.


So your basically going to Ignore the fact that Kaidou was clearly shown on the front lines in the battle between Roger/Garp and Rocks? 

He clearly was well known enough that Orochi cited his name to Oden as if it would scare him off. Plus even if we go off Kaidou hype 20Y before the series began which would include beating Prime Moriah; and overthrowing Oden. Akainu was maybe a best a VA by then; and Shanks was still a little kid. There levels of infamy are vastly different.


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## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

@OniKaido
If Kaidou could not react while in the air, I don’t see how he would react once he was already on the floor and Oden mere inches away from him landing his attack.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> @OniKaido
> If Kaidou could not react while in the air, I don’t see how he would react once he was already on the floor and Oden mere inches away from him landing his attack.


in base; smaller, faster, more agile, with his club.


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## Corax (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Based on ? The fact that he was cut and fell ? Apparently the cut could only keep him down for a couple of seconds. Maybe with 10 cuts, sure he would have died


Cut was to his chest area and he fell unconscious after it. Same cut to his neck would have killed him or near fatally injured. Oden was about to kill or severely cripple him.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Corax said:


> Cut was to his chest area and he fell *unconscious* after it. Same cut to his neck would have killed him or near fatally injured. Oden was about to kill or severely cripple him.


unconsciousness lasts longer than 5 seconds and afterwards you can't be strong enough to one shot your opponent.


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## Corax (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> unconsciousness lasts longer than 5 seconds and afterwards you can't be strong enough to one shot your opponent.


Oden was about to deal the finishing blow but interrupted by hostage situation. Kaido was unconscious if even briefly. He was lying on the ground with white eyes. He was in brief KO. For example in boxing referee usually stops the match in similar situation.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Corax said:


> Oden was about to deal the finishing blow but interrupted by hostage situation. Kaido was unconscious if even briefly. He was lying on the ground with white eyes. He was in brief KO. For example in boxing referee usually stops the match in similar situation.


so you repeat the same thing white eyes does not mean ko. He had white eyes against G3 luffy and he did not even feel that hit.
there is no such thing as brief KO. You are either unconscious (KO) , or you are not (KD) and again, unconsciousness does not last a couple of seconds after which you proceed to 1hko. It takes time to get up and it takes even more to get to a former state if at all.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> so you repeat the same thing white eyes does not mean ko. He had white eyes against G3 luffy and he did not even feel that hit.
> there is no such thing as brief KO. You are either unconscious (KO) , or you are not (KD) and again, unconsciousness does not last a couple of seconds after which you proceed to 1hko. It takes time to get up and it takes even more to get to a former state if at all.


Honestly the burden of proof is on anyone asserting Kaidou could have won without the Hags intervention.

Kaidou has just received a crippling blow from Oden that he bares the scar from to this day; while Oden was totally fine. Where is the proof Kaidou could have got up in time to defend himself form Oden successive attack without the Hags intervention. And even if you believe he could where is the proof that in his injured state Kaidou could have won a drawn out match with Oden.

Asking Corax to prove Kaidou without a doubt couldn’t get up and win the fight is not an intellectually honest stance; as there is no way he can 100% prove it unless Oda comes out and directly says so and you know this. In a discussion/debate we go with what side has the most evidence supporting it to determine what it’s likely (preponderance of evidence); in this case there is way more evidence of Kaidou inevitable loss if the fight continued then him being able to get back up an pull a win. It’s that simple; and if you disagree the burden of proof is for sure on you to present more evidence for Kaidou victory


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> in base; smaller, faster, more agile, with his club.


He wasn’t in base.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> He wasn’t in base.


He went into his base form in a sec.



Turrin said:


> Honestly the burden of proof is on anyone asserting Kaidou could have won without the Hags intervention.
> 
> Kaidou has just received a crippling blow from Oden that he bares the scar from to this day; while Oden was totally fine. Where is the proof Kaidou could have got up in time to defend himself form Oden successive attack without the Hags intervention. And even if you believe he could where is the proof that in his injured state Kaidou could have won a drawn out match with Oden.
> 
> Asking Corax to prove Kaidou without a doubt couldn’t get up and win the fight is not an intellectually honest stance; *as there is no way he can 100% prove it unless Oda comes out and directly says so and you know this*. In a discussion/debate we go with what side has the most evidence supporting it to determine what it’s likely (preponderance of evidence); in this case there is way more evidence of Kaidou inevitable loss if the fight continued then him being able to get back up an pull a win. It’s that simple; and if you disagree the burden of proof is for sure on you to present more evidence for Kaidou victory


I do know that. I also know that Kaido got up immediately and had enough strength to oneshot. When you people start talking on threads and saying Oden destroyed Kaido you should also prove Oden was actually capable of doing it. Otherwise, the situation was nothing different from Shutenmaru vs Jack. A cut and then back to fight.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I do know that. I also know that Kaido got up immediately and had enough strength to oneshot. When you people start talking on threads and saying Oden destroyed Kaido you should also prove Oden was actually capable of doing it. Otherwise, the situation was nothing different from Shutenmaru vs Jack. A cut and then back to fight.


What we saw was Oden destroying Kaidou up until the Hag’s intervention tho. Oden cut a swath through an army making his way to Kaidou; and then his first attack cut Kaidou down; and then he was mid strike on a down’d Kaidou when the Hag intervened.

So had the Hag not stopped Oden right here mid strike with his sword inches away from Kaidou throat :

Where is you evidence that it would have been anything other then Oden destroying Kaidou? Because all the evidence up to that point, indicates that Oden would have decimated Kaidou.

You need proof that without the Hag causing Oden to stop his strike Kaidou could have still gotten up in time; to defend himself. You need evidence that with such a major wound Kaidou could have kept fighting Oden longer without being completely overpowered and decimated. So where is you evidence for anything other then Oden dominating


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> What we saw was Oden destroying Kaidou yo until they Hag intervention tho. Oden cut a swath through an army making his way to Kaidou; and then his first attack cut Kaidou down; and then he was mid strike on a down’d Kaidou when the Hag intervened.
> 
> So had the Hag not stopped Oden right here mid strike:
> 
> ...



Kaido rising immediately and oneshoting is proof. NO proof another cut would have killed Kaido based on the incredibly short time that first cut held him down. Nor did Oden believe it either. Again, no difference from Shutenmaru vs Jack.  If anything Kadio reacted better than Jack did. All Oden gained in that fight, was the temporary upper hand.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido rising immediately and oneshoting is proof. NO proof another cut would have killed Kaido based on the incredibly short time that first cut held him down. Nor did Oden believe it either. Again, no difference from Shutenmaru vs Jack.  If anything Kadio reacted better than Jack did. All Oden gained in that fight, was the temporary upper hand.


But it isn’t proof.

For one Kaidou didn’t rise immediately after being hit; we plainly see in the panel I posted that Kaidou is still on the ground when Oden launches his second attack and his sword is closing in on Kaidou neck. 

Secondly Kaidou one-shotting a distracted Oden isn’t proof he could do anything against a not distracted oden with his injury. 

So you have not provided any proof


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> But it isn’t proof.
> 
> For one Kaidou didn’t rise immediately after being hit; we plainly see in the panel I posted that Kaidou is still on the ground when Oden launches his second attack and his sword is closing in on Kaidou neck.
> 
> ...


Kaido fell and got up. it was very fast. After the first cut, Oden began the second attack, he turned and got hit.
No, Oden would have probably dodged if he saw Kaido, but it has nothing to do with what I meant. Kaido did not seem bothered enough by the cut because it barely affected his strength. He hit Oden very hard. Note that Oden was a man who took a named attack from Roger pretty well, yet a not named attack from Kaido put him down for good. This is not a means to compare young Kaido to the damned PK, but just to prove that Kaido could keep on very well after the cut.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Kaido fell and got up. it was very fast. After the first cut, Oden began the second attack, he turned and got hit.
> No, Oden would have probably dodged if he saw Kaido, but it has nothing to do with what I meant. Kaido did not seem bothered enough by the cut because it barely affected his strength. He hit Oden very hard. Note that Oden was a man who took a named attack from Roger pretty well, yet a not named attack from Kaido put him down for good. This is not a means to compare young Kaido to the damned PK, but just to prove that Kaido could keep on very well after the cut.


1- Kaidou got up after Oden’s second attack was interrupted. So again without the attack being interrupted do you have any proof Kaidou would have gotten up in time to properly defend himself (while already wounded) from Oden second attack that was already closing in on his neck. 

2- The attack from Roger hit Odens sword; not Odens head directly like Kaidou hit; that’s why. 

With that said Kaidou still having great strength even when wounded isn’t even in question; he obviously does. However we also know Oden attack did serious damage to Kaidou as it left a scar on him to this day. So again where is the proof that Kaidou with serious damage is going to be able to do better then he did against Oden without serious damage; which essentially amounted to Oden blitzing Kaidou and cutting him down with Nitoryu


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> He went into his base form in a sec.
> 
> 
> I do know that. I also know that Kaido got up immediately and had enough strength to oneshot. When you people start talking on threads and saying Oden destroyed Kaido you should also prove Oden was actually capable of doing it. Otherwise, the situation was nothing different from Shutenmaru vs Jack. A cut and then back to fight.


He wasn’t in base when Oden was attack, only once Oden had turned around, dashed to his son, did Kaidou, Before that he was laying on the floor with no way to block, and again Oden already swinging to finish him.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> He wasn’t in base when Oden was attack, only once Oden had turned around, dashed to his son, did Kaidou, Before that he was laying on the floor with no way to block, and again *Oden already swinging to finish him*.


I know he wasn't in base when Oden attacked, I only stated that he changed the form very, very fast.
Bold is again unprovable. 2 cuts wouldn't do the trick if one cut barely did shit.


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I know he wasn't in base when Oden attacked, I only stated that he changed the form very, very fast.
> Bold is again unprovable. 2 cuts wouldn't do the trick if one cut barely did shit.


You seem to be arguing different things.
Oden did damage Kaidou and the fact that you think he barely did anything, I’m not gonna going to go on with this.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Kaidou got up after Oden’s second attack was interrupted. So again without the attack being interrupted do you have any proof Kaidou would have gotten up in time to properly defend himself (while already wounded) from Oden second attack that was already closing in on his neck.
> 
> 2- The attack from Roger hit Odens sword; not Odens head directly like Kaidou hit; that’s why.
> 
> With that said Kaidou still having great strength even when wounded isn’t even in question; he obviously does. However we also know Oden attack did serious damage to Kaidou as it left a scar on him to this day. So again where is the proof that Kaidou with serious damage is going to be able to do better then he did against Oden without serious damage; which essentially amounted to Oden blitzing Kaidou and cutting him down with Nitoryu


Turrin I am not trying to prove Kaido would dodge the second attack even though given his speed, it is possible. What I am quite sure is the fact that a next attack wouldn't have put Kaido to sleep as the first cut barely did shit to him ( aside from a scar, not really worth mentioning, WB has a dozen ). Then, after going in base with 2-3 cuts, we do not know what would have happened. Oden had the upperhand and a single second of atention lost had him oneshotted.



MasterBeast said:


> You seem to be arguing different things.
> Oden did damage Kaidou and the fact that you think he barely did anything, I’m not gonna going to go on with this.


Good, you do not need to go on with this. Oden scarred Kaido and made him bloody, yet not close to being enough to put him down as we have seen. Nothing to discuss really.


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Good, you do not need to go on with this. Oden scarred Kaido and made him bloody, yet not close to being enough to put him down as we have seen. Nothing to discuss really.


The fact that you think Oden barely did anything is laughable.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> The fact that you think Oden barely did anything is laughable.


the fact that you think 2 sword slashes would kill Kaido when one held him down for a couple of seconds is laughable


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> the fact that you think 2 sword slashes would kill Kaido when one held him down for a couple of seconds is laughable


No one is laughing with you, only at you.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> No one is laughing with you, only at you.


Keep telling that to yourself. Maybe it will be true in the end.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Just like Churchill said: " I'm bored with it all "


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Turrin I am not trying to prove Kaido would dodge the second attack even though given his speed, it is possible. What I am quite sure is the fact that a next attack wouldn't have put Kaido to sleep as the first cut barely did shit to him ( aside from a scar, not really worth mentioning, WB has a dozen ). Then, after going in base with 2-3 cuts, we do not know what would have happened. Oden had the upperhand and a single second of atention lost had him oneshotted.
> 
> 
> Good, you do not need to go on with this. Oden scarred Kaido and made him bloody, yet not close to being enough to put him down as we have seen. Nothing to discuss really.


1- Okay so going to need you to prove the first attack “barely did shit to him”; and that a second attack landing on his neck wouldn’t do even more damage then.

Please note Kaidou getting back up and delivering a strong attack on Oden isn’t proof he wasn’t dealt significant damage by Oden’s first attack. WB lost half his face and still delivered a powerful blow to Akainu. That doesn’t mean WB didn’t suffer a horrible injury.

2- I’m aware that “we don’t know what would have happened” is the point in contention. What I’m am saying is that the most likely outcome is Oden’s victory, based on the preponderance of the only actual evidence that we do have.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Okay so going to need you to prove the first attack “barely did shit to him”; and that a second attack landing on his neck wouldn’t do even more damage then.
> 
> Please note Kaidou getting back up and delivering a strong attack on Oden isn’t proof he wasn’t dealt significant damage by Oden’s first attack. WB lost half his face and still delivered a powerful blow to Akainu. That doesn’t mean WB didn’t suffer a horrible injury.
> 
> 2- I’m aware that “we don’t know what would have happened” is the point in contention. What I’m am saying is that the most likely outcome is Oden’s victory, based on the preponderance of the only actual evidence that we do have.



Yes, the *more *likely outcome is Oden winning. Earlier I've stated that he had gained the upper hand. The one who has the upper hand, has more chances.
WB lost half his face and was still capable to kick BB's ass. Moreover, that was not his only injury. He was in a way more horrific state than Kaido.

The neck part, it may be the case or it may not. Again, Kaido changed his form extremely fast so he may have reacted. We also cannot know how effective would the cut be in comparison to the first cut.

In other threads, I have mentioned that Kaido's 1v1 weakest form is his dragon form, as it is very easy to tag + no club. I maintain my opinion. Oden did not really impress me with the fact that he blitzed dragon Kaido. The cut was impressive, yet the damage was not immense. What he impressed me with was his portrayal and his clash with WB + taking Roger's named attack.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Yes, the *more *likely outcome is Oden winning. Earlier I've stated that he had gained the upper hand. The one who has the upper hand, has more chances.
> WB lost half his face and was still capable to kick BB's ass. Moreover, that was not his only injury. He was in a way more horrific state than Kaido.
> 
> The neck part, it may be the case or it may not. Again, Kaido changed his form extremely fast so he may have reacted. We also cannot know how effective would the cut be in comparison to the first cut.
> ...


1- If Oden is more likely to win; then what are you arguing against?

2- If Kaidou was changing his form when being hit by Oden second slash, this would likely be to his detriment. As his Human form is going to be less durable then his Dragon Form. 

3- The damage was immense; otherwise it would not have left a scar to this day.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- If Oden is more likely to win; then what are you arguing against?
> 
> 2- If Kaidou was changing his form when being hit by Oden second slash, this would likely be to his detriment. As his Human form is going to be less durable then his Dragon Form.
> 
> 3- The damage was immense; otherwise it would not have left a scar to this day.


1. Against the idea that the fight was already lost and that Oden destroyed Kaido which was not the case.
2. It may be less durable yet it is way faster, way smaller and way better suited for a 1v1.
3. The damage would have been immense if Kaido would have been KO'd, not if he would be up almost immediately. Plus, ask WB about his pletora of scars or Luffy about the one below the eye, or even Shanks. Scars don't mean immense damage. In fact deep cuts usually mean scars.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> 1. Against the idea that the fight was already lost and that Oden destroyed Kaido which was not the case.
> 2. It may be less durable yet it is way faster, way smaller and way better suited for a 1v1.
> 3. The damage would have been immense if Kaido would have been KO'd, not if he would be up almost immediately. Plus, ask WB about his pletora of scars or Luffy about the one below the eye, or even Shanks. Scars don't mean immense damage. In fact deep cuts usually mean scars.


1- Well you haven’t proven the fight wasn’t already lost unless you can prove that Kaidou could survive / not be KO’d by Oden’s second slash to his neck. Otherwise all we can say is the fight could have already been lost; and if not all evidence points to Oden victory anyway.

2. You already said you didn’t expect Kaidou to evade that second hit; so greater speed and all that shit doesn’t matter; all that matters is that Kaidou would have even less durability when hit by Oden second strike

3. So again was the damage to WB face not immense because he wasn’t KO’d?

And sure but deep cuts across your entire chest are immense injuries , so...


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 29, 2020)

Corax said:


> Oden was about to deal the finishing blow but interrupted by hostage situation. Kaido was unconscious if even briefly. He was lying on the ground with white eyes. He was in brief KO. For example in boxing referee usually stops the match in similar situation.


Kaidou’s eyes turning white in dragon mode isn’t proof of him being unconscious unless you want to tell me Luffy also had Kaidou unconscious and defenceless after a gear 3 punch. Also I’m not sure why you would assume a sword wound like that would even cause him to lose consciousness unless he has ridiculously bad pain tolerance which is doubtful.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Well you haven’t proven the fight wasn’t already lost unless you can prove that Kaidou could survive / not be KO’d by Oden’s second slash to his neck. Otherwise all we can say is the fight could have already been lost; and if not all evidence points to Oden victory anyway.
> 
> 2. You already said you didn’t expect Kaidou to evade that second hit; so greater speed and all that shit doesn’t matter; all that matters is that Kaidou would have even less durability when hit by Oden second strike
> 
> ...



I have nothing to prove. Kaido got up in an instant and oneshotted. That only means the cut wasn't good enough..far from it. We are running in circles. Oden's slash to the neck is what you believe would happen in your mind. Oden went for the chest the first time, no reason to believe he would go for the neck the second time, nor do you have proof the damage would be enough.
I said it is possible for him to avoid, yet maybe not probable, which is the truth, yet there is no proof he could not take another one, absolutely zero. There is proof he would resist though. The fact that Oden's strongest attack could keep him down a couple of seconds.
The damage to WB was as much as it was needed to hurt him, definitely not enough to hold him down. IN fact he even proceeded to send Akainu to nirvana moments after that. If that is immense for you, then immense for people like Kaido or WB is way too little.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I have nothing to prove. Kaido got up in an instant and oneshotted. That only means the cut wasn't good enough..far from it. We are running in circles. Oden's slash to the neck is what you believe would happen in your mind. Oden went for the chest the first time, no reason to believe he would go for the neck the second time, nor do you have proof the damage would be enough.
> I said it is possible for him to avoid, yet maybe not probable, which is the truth, yet there is no proof he could not take another one, absolutely zero. There is proof he would resist though. The fact that Oden's strongest attack could keep him down a couple of seconds.
> The damage to WB was as much as it was needed to hurt him, definitely not enough to hold him down. IN fact he even proceeded to send Akainu to nirvana moments after that. If that is immense for you, then immense for people like Kaido or WB is way too little.


This is the most backwards shit I've ever seen. Kaido's strongest trait was that he was durable, Invulnerable even. Oden cuts him. No one said that Oden was so far above him that Kaido didn't have sheer physical strength. Kaido was about to die though. If you think otherwise, you're being obtuse.

Kaido one-shotted a man who was worried for the safety of his son. It was stated that "there was a spy" and Oden heard such a thing, he would anticipate the worse and did not wish for harm to come to his family. This means his focus stopped being on battle and started on his son. That's called a cheap trick, Kaido could have been his Dragon Form, His Human Form, or whatever his Hybrid Form is going to be. That was HIS choice, his choice also placed him into a situation where he almost died as well. Kaido did not curbstomp Oden, Oden was caught off-guard and struck while worrying about his son. The exchange between the Momo (The Witch) and Oden took a few seconds and Kaido was still grounded and stunned from being struck by that attack, Oden would have killed him if said scenario did not happen. Stop being obtuse.

Akainu literally got up after being struck into the fissure and proceeded to fight again... What are you talking about?


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I have nothing to prove. Kaido got up in an instant and oneshotted. That only means the cut wasn't good enough..far from it. We are running in circles. Oden's slash to the neck is what you believe would happen in your mind. Oden went for the chest the first time, no reason to believe he would go for the neck the second time, nor do you have proof the damage would be enough.
> I said it is possible for him to avoid, yet maybe not probable, which is the truth, yet there is no proof he could not take another one, absolutely zero. There is proof he would resist though. The fact that Oden's strongest attack could keep him down a couple of seconds.
> The damage to WB was as much as it was needed to hurt him, definitely not enough to hold him down. IN fact he even proceeded to send Akainu to nirvana moments after that. If that is immense for you, then immense for people like Kaido or WB is way too little.


1- Kaidou getting up proves that Oden attack wasn’t good enough to defeat him. What you need to prove is his second attack wouldn’t be

2- Oden going for the neck is what’s shown on panel:
But can you even prove Kaidou gets up after a second slash to the chest?

3- Okay so if he isn’t likely to avoid it, then where is the proof that he can take another attack period. Your the one saying Kaidou wasn’t going to loose to that second attack, so the burden of proof is on you.

4- Oden first attack not keeping Kaidou down isn’t proof he would survive / not be KO’d by a second one; anymore then WB not being brought down by Akainu attack proves he would survive a second one. I’m sorry but It just isn’t proof

5- Immense is too little to necessarily defeat Kaidou or WB in one hit; I agree, and that was never in contention. But it was immense damage.

To remind you the points in contention here are

1- Kaidou would not be brought down by Oden second strike

2- That Oden wasn’t the likely victor of the fight


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> This is the most backwards shit I've ever seen. Kaido's strongest trait was that he was durable, Invulnerable even. Oden cuts him. No one said that Oden was so far above him that Kaido didn't have sheer physical strength.* Kaido was about to die though. If you think otherwise, you're being obtuse*.
> 
> Kaido one-shotted a man *who was worried for the safety of his son*. It was stated that "there was a spy" and Oden heard such a thing, he would anticipate the worse and did not wish for harm to come to his family. This means his focus stopped being on battle and started on his son. That's called a cheap trick, Kaido could have been his Dragon Form, His Human Form, or whatever his Hybrid Form is going to be. That was HIS choice, his choice also placed him into a situation where he almost died as well. Kaido did not curbstomp Oden, Oden was caught off-guard and struck while worrying about his son. The exchange between the Momo (The Witch) and Oden took a few seconds and Kaido was still grounded and stunned from being struck by that attack, Oden would have killed him if said scenario did not happen. Stop being obtuse.
> 
> *Akainu literally got up after being struck into the fissure and proceeded to fight again*... What are you talking about?


Just think about how it would be for me to take the bolded seriously. Nevermind the rest of the post.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Kaidou getting up proves that Oden attack wasn’t good enough to defeat him. What you need to prove is his second attack wouldn’t be
> 
> 2- Oden going for the neck is what’s shown on panel:
> But can you even prove Kaidou gets up after a second slash to the chest?
> ...


running in circles again. An attack that couldn't weaken one enough to do anything more than a scar, but basically nothing else wouldn't do much damage even if it hits a second time. It is pure logic. 100-25=75 ; 75-25=50, not 0. LoL at the neck part. The angle is way too unclear. I could say he went for the d*ck and you couldn't disagree with me.
If immense is too little, then ''another immense'' would be ''another too little''. Capische ?


The actual major problem is that in a thread about admirals vs yonko I argue with you about Oden and a young dragon form Kaido.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Just think about how it would be for me to take the bolded seriously. Nevermind the rest of the post.


So... are we not going to take at face value that Oden wanted to kill Kaido... And he rushed at him to deliver the finishing blow...

Why are you bolding that he was worried about his son... It's literally the reason he stopped coming after Kaido. That's the only reason he stopped, there would have been no other reason unless he thought something happened to his family.

I don't know why you bolded this one either but... This was after he was sent into the fissure.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> So... are we not going to take at face value that Oden wanted to kill Kaido... And he rushed at him to deliver the finishing blow...
> 
> Why are you bolding that he was worried about his son... It's literally the reason he stopped coming after Kaido. That's the only reason he stopped, there would have been no other reason unless he thought something happened to his family.
> 
> ...


Being worried did not make Oden's scalp softer.
Akainu came back 2 chapters later . He took a f*ing nap down there. Win via BFR


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Being worried did not make Oden's scalp softer.
> Akainu came back 2 chapters later . He took a f*ing nap down there. Win via BFR


Wow... OK. You seem to want your opinion to be right no matter how many people state facts. So after this I'm probably ignoring you from now on. The fact that Akainu woke up after being struck by one of the series strongest attacks and then was back to fighting again... And still wished to fight even after Shanks wanted to join the battle (which was only stopped by Sengoku) showcases that he's a top tier.

In these entire debates, you've shown nothing. In the Marco vs Luffy debate, you postured about your stance with nothing to show for it. In this debate, you did the same thing. I see nothing of relevance in your argument, only what you think, not actually what was there. Even when the intent was clear towards what was happening, you shrugged it off. You shouldn't be debating characters if you already have the same mindset you will always have, because no one can change your mindset even if they put facts in front of you.

You're an obtuse person and obtuse people never change.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Wow... OK. You seem to want your opinion to be right no matter how many people state facts. So after this I'm probably ignoring you from now on. The fact that Akainu woke up after being struck by one of the series strongest attacks and then was back to fighting again... And still wished to fight even after Shanks wanted to join the battle (which was only stopped by Sengoku) showcases that he's a top tier.
> 
> In these entire debates, you've shown nothing. In the Marco vs Luffy debate, you postured about your stance with nothing to show for it. In this debate, you did the same thing. I see nothing of relevance in your argument, only what you think, not actually what was there. Even when the intent was clear towards what was happening, you shrugged it off. You shouldn't be debating characters if you already have the same mindset you will always have, because no one can change your mindset even if they put facts in front of you.
> 
> You're an obtuse person and obtuse people never change.


Your neglection of my posts shall be missed. You are just an individual who before doing anything else, talks. Whether you see anything of relevance in my argument means little to me or the community. I am usually not interested in being aggressive on a forum and if you disagree with me, I couldn't care less, especially if you are one of those who says, dunno, let's say Marco > Kaido, like I saw you do by supporting Turrin in another thread ( while the man was furiously trying to prove us that a FM is stronger than the man above Akainu ).
At least Turrin is well mannered.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Your neglection of my posts shall be missed. You are just an individual who before doing anything else, talks. Whether you see anything of relevance in my argument means little to me or the community. I am usually not interested in being aggressive on a forum and if you disagree with me, I couldn't care less, especially if you are one of those who says, dunno, let's say Marco > Kaido, like I saw you do by supporting Turrin in another thread ( while the man was furiously trying to prove us that a FM is stronger than the man above Akainu ).
> At least Turrin is well mannered.


That's interesting since the entire point of a debate is to get your point across through conversation. Don't talk about the community as if you're a pillar. As I see it, you're nothing more than a guy who has no adaptability or flexibility, which means you will be stuck in your ways until you decide to part with this community. Never said Marco > Kaido, please post when I did, I told you before not to place shit I didn't say in your mouth unless you had proof to back it up. And Turrin was not trying to prove that at all. He was trying to prove that Kaido wasn't as strong as you guys state he is and you, as I stated before, tried to make him look foolish because you don't have a leg to stand on. Which is being shown again and again for the short time I've been back here.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> running in circles again. An attack that couldn't weaken one enough to do anything more than a scar, but basically nothing else wouldn't do much damage even if it hits a second time. It is pure logic. 100-25=75 ; 75-25=50, not 0. LoL at the neck part. The angle is way too unclear. I could say he went for the d*ck and you couldn't disagree with me.
> If immense is too little, then ''another immense'' would be ''another too little''. Capische ?
> 
> The actual major problem is that in a thread about admirals vs yonko I argue with you about Oden and a young dragon form Kaido.


1- Prove it didn’t do anything else. 

2- It’s completely clear we see Kaidou head and the area he is targeting is the neck


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Prove it didn’t do anything else.
> 
> 2- It’s completely clear we see Kaidou head and the area he is targeting is the neck


His fast and effective comeback was the proof. Like I said, running in circles. I bring you the point, you do not accept it and repeat.
Thaat panel is barely clear. Also the angle of Oden's attack is debatable , he might have been going for the chest, neck or head.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> His fast and effective comeback was the proof. Like I said, running in circles. I bring you the point, you do not accept it and repeat.
> Thaat panel is barely clear. Also the angle of Oden's attack is debatable , he might have been going for the chest, neck or head.


As I said three times, WB had a faster and more effective comeback to Akainu attack, that doesn’t mean he could take another attack from Akainu and survive; let alone to the neck. What your citing isn’t proof, period.

The panel is extremely clear. We see where Kiadou’s head is, we see Oden aiming directly at his neck, mid attack. Your being intellectually dishonest if your going to argue he wasn’t aiming for his neck


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> That's interesting since the entire point of a debate is to get your point across through conversation. Don't talk about the community as if you're a pillar. As I see it, you're nothing more than a guy who has no adaptability or flexibility, which means you will be stuck in your ways until you decide to part with this community. Never said Marco > Kaido, please post when I did, I told you before not to place shit I didn't say in your mouth unless you had proof to back it up. And Turrin was not trying to prove that at all. He was trying to prove that Kaido wasn't as strong as you guys state he is and you, as I stated before, tried to make him look foolish because you don't have a leg to stand on. Which is being shown again and again for the short time I've been back here.


Please ignore me my boy  lol, Turrin not saying Marco> than Kaido; lo at you not saying he has good points. Get out of here. Is your memory so short ? Please stop answering. You are wasting my time. I would rather debate with Turrin. Same opinion you two have, however he is more worthy of respect and my time.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> His fast and effective comeback was the proof. Like I said, running in circles. I bring you the point, you do not accept it and repeat.
> Thaat panel is barely clear. Also the angle of Oden's attack is debatable , he might have been going for the chest, neck or head.


And again, you show nothing. You're actually stating that the guy that did this with no animosity towards the creature, is somehow going to miss the best shot at killing Kaido he has...





Duhul10 said:


> Please ignore me my boy  lol, Turrin not saying Marco> than Kaido; lo at you not saying he has good points. Get out of here. Is your memory so short ? Please stop answering. You are wasting my time. I would rather debate with Turrin. Same opinion you two have, however he is more worthy of respect and my time.


And yet you're not worth anyone's respect. Interesting.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> As I said three times, WB had a faster and more effective comeback to Akainu attack, that doesn’t mean he could take another attack from Akainu and survive; let alone to the neck. What your citing isn’t proof, period.
> 
> The panel is extremely clear. We see where Kiadou’s head is, we see Oden aiming directly at his neck, mid attack. Your being intellectually dishonest if your going to argue he wasn’t aiming for his neck


WB kept on fighting after being hit and quite well actually. Moreover, before Akainu's shot he had already been hit many, many times, so your point is wrong on many levels. Again, the neck part is pure assumption. You say it is clear, I say it is not. Agree to disagree. The only thing that can be seen is hair and those scales which he has on his entire body.



Gomu said:


> And yet you're not worth anyone's respect. Interesting.


Yet you are the first one to tell this to me. Not sure the same could be said about you. Just ask around



Gomu said:


> And again, you show nothing. You're actually stating that the guy that did this with no animosity towards the creature, is somehow going to miss the best shot at killing Kaido he has...


yes Oden defeating a pig proves your point. Next reply equals an ignore my friend.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> WB kept on fighting after being hit and quite well actually. Moreover, before Akainu's shot he had already been hit many, many times, so your point is wrong on many levels. Again, the neck part is pure assumption. You say it is clear, I say it is not. Agree to disagree. The only thing that can be seen is hair and those scales which he has on his entire body.


1- So are you saying WB could take a second hit, losing the other half of his face and keep fight; Yes or No? If Yes, do you think he could take one to the neck and keep fighting: Yes or No?

2- If I show you a picture of the color blue; you can’t claim it’s purple and say agree to disagree; that intellectually dishonest argumentation


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- So are you saying WB could take a second hit, losing the other half of his face and keep fight; Yes or No? If Yes, do you think he could take one to the neck and keep fighting: Yes or No?
> 
> 2-* If I show you a picture of the color blue; you can’t claim it’s purple and say agree to disagree; that intellectually dishonest argumentation*


bolded has absolutely no sense and the same I can state about you.
Yes, WB could take a second hit;  no, not the other half of his face, nor does it matter to our debate; to the neck, maybe, if it was only akainu who he had fought at MF like Oden was the only top tier Kaido faced in that battle, definitely. I only accepted the analogy for the sake of the debate given the fact that their skin is different.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> bolded has absolutely no sense and the same I can state about you.
> Yes, WB could take a second hit;  no, not the other half of his face, nor does it matter to our debate; to the neck, maybe, if it was only akainu who he had fought at MF like Oden was the only top tier Kaido faced in that battle, definitely. I only accepted the analogy for the sake of the debate given the fact that their skin is different.


Okay so your premise is that WB could take a hit that went right through his head; to the neck and still be able to fight. Have to agree with Gomu Your just being intellectually dishonest now, I’m done here

It’s okay to be wrong some times bud; let go

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> *Okay so your premise is that WB could take a hit that went right through his head; to the neck and still be able to fight*. Have to agree with Gomu Your just being intellectually dishonest now, I’m done here
> 
> *It’s okay to be wrong some times bud; let go*


first bold: Yes, if he hadn't suffered other injuries before, sure. He took more damage than that in the war.


second bold: concession accepted. It took you some time to do it.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> first bold: Yes, if he hadn't suffered other injuries before, sure. He took more damage than that in the war.
> 
> 
> second bold: concession accepted. It took you some time to do it.


He can live without a neck if he hasn’t suffered injuries before; the Tier specialist rating never applied to anyone’s post better


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He can live without a neck if he hasn’t suffered injuries before; the Tier specialist rating never applied to anyone’s post better


You meant decapitation ? then no, not that it would happen, nor does it apply to our situation. Oden's strongest attacks meant two cuts on the chest that were shook off fast.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> You meant decapitation ? then no, not that it would happen, nor does it apply to our situation. Oden's strongest attacks meant two cuts on the chest that were shook off fast.


I literally asked you if Akainu hit WB in the neck with the same move that went through his head; would he be able to live; and you said yes if he didn’t have any other injuries.

Changing your mind now Tier Specialist?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I literally asked you if Akainu hit WB in the neck with the same move that went through his head; would he be able to live; and you said yes if he didn’t have any other injuries.
> 
> Changing your mind now Tier Specialist?


Hoy, tier specialist, Akainu's hit took only a part of his head. When you said it would hit his neck I thought you referred to the same situation. Or did WB lose his entire head ? How is it GODA ?


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Hoy, tier specialist, Akainu's hit took only a part of his head. When you said it would hit his neck I thought you referred to the same situation. Or did WB lose his entire head ? How is it GODA ?


So your saying WB has a chunk of his neck taken out; right where his main artery is, he’s going to keep going? And I’m assuming you have proof of this


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So your saying WB has a chunk of his neck taken out; right where his main artery is, he’s going to keep going? And I’m assuming you have proof of this


are you f*ing kidding me ? the man Put down Akainu and BB without a chunk of his head after sustaining many other injuries.
I'm a med student and trust me: if a man shakes off losing a part of his brain, then losing a chunk of his neck afterwards and surviving would definitely be possible, without a doubt.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> are you f*ing kidding me ? the man Put down Akainu and BB without a chunk of his head after sustaining many other injuries.
> I'm a med student and trust me: if a man shakes off losing a part of his brain, then losing a chunk of his neck afterwards and surviving would definitely be possible, without a doubt.


He didn’t loose a chunk of his brain his face was burned of and maybe some of his skull; having a gap in your neck so that literally your head is just hanging there is obviously different.

And again do you have proof that another injury is not going to take him down.

The problem with your logic is that your just assuming dude could keep fighting after one injury so he defiantly can if he receives another or even a more brevity’s injury. That’s not true period


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> He didn’t loose a chunk of his brain his face was burned of and maybe some of his skull; having a gap in your neck so that literally your head is just hanging there is obviously different.
> 
> And again do you have proof that another injury is not going to take him down.
> 
> The problem with your logic is that your just assuming dude could keep fighting after one injury so he defiantly can if he receives another or even a more brevity’s injury. That’s not true period


Unfortunately, he did survive with other injuries. With many other injuries and myocardial infarction. Either way, Akainu's attack was way more deadly than two cuts. So the analogy is bad, but even then I tried to make you understand.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Unfortunately, he did survive with other injuries. With many other injuries and myocardial infarction. Either way, Akainu's attack was way more deadly than two cuts. So the analogy is bad, but even then I tried to make you understand.


So again your asserting that WB with his head hanging off missing part of his neck, is going to keep fighting because he survived other injuries?

This is why you are being called obtuse and intellectually dishonest.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So again your asserting that WB with his head hanging off missing part of his neck, is going to keep fighting because he survived other injuries?
> 
> This is why you are being called obtuse and intellectually dishonest.


by you and another supporter of marco ( against Kaido ), come on bro.
Yes, If WB is fresh and he loses 30% of his neck after losing 30% of his brain, given his feats I do believe he can continue. Any problem with that? If you've got no idea about anatomy and the irrigation of the brain, at least shut up. If someone can think straight and fight after losing a part of his motor cortex and all other giruses in the left-upper side of the brain, then he definitely can allow himself to lose the carotid artery, especially if it is on the same side and even if not.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> by you and another supporter of marco ( against Kaido ), come on bro.
> Yes, If WB is fresh and he loses 30% of his neck after losing 30% of his brain, given his feats I do believe he can continue. Any problem with that? If you've got no idea about anatomy and the irrigation of the brain, at least shut up. If someone can think straight and fight after losing a part of his motor cortex and all other giruses in the left-upper side of the brain, then he definitely can allow himself to lose the carotid artery, especially if it is on the same side and even if not.


Can I have proof WB lost 30% of his brain.

Can I have an explanation of why WB ever died if he can just keep continuing despite accumulated damage?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Can I have proof WB lost 30% of his brain.
> 
> Can I have an explanation of why WB ever died if he can just keep continuing despite accumulated damage?


30/40/50 that was not the point. It looked like a quarter of his neurocranium. Choose your percentage, that is not the idea.
He can keep up to a certain point. But I like how you ignore that apart from the brain loss, he suffered many other injuries, some of them which were worse than a neck hit (like kizaru's beam to the chest and others ). What you must understand is that his body does not work like a human body, so two or three shots which seem fatal to you ( as they would normally be for a human ) are not fatal for him. However, things will stop working after too much damage, it is logical.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> 30/40/50 that was not the point. It looked like a quarter of his neurocranium. Choose your percentage, that is not the idea.
> He can keep up to a certain point. But I like how you ignore that apart from the brain loss, he suffered many other injuries, some of them which were worse than a neck hit (like kizaru's beam to the chest and others ). What you must understand is that his body does not work like a human body, so two or three shots which seem fatal to you ( as they would normally be for a human ) are not fatal for him. However, things will stop working after too much damage, it is logical.


Okay so just because he survives one hit:doesn’t mean he will survive another because at that point the damage might be too much. Right?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay so just because he survives one hit:doesn’t mean he will survive another because at that point the damage might be too much. Right?


depending on the hit, yes.  What we agree to disagree to is whether that hit would be Akainu's (for wb)/oden's (for kaido). It's better to leave it at this point. We've been ''fighting'' for some time already. I appreciate the fact that you avoided calling me obtuse yourself and used your friend instead. Smart, very smart.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> depending on the hit, yes.  What we agree to disagree to is whether that hit would be Akainu's (for wb)/oden's (for kaido). It's better to leave it at this point. We've been ''fighting'' for some time already. I appreciate the fact that you avoided calling me obtuse yourself and used your friend instead. Smart, very smart.


Yes, but if you don’t have proof, that Kaidou/WB would definitely live through that second hit; you can’t claim the battle definitely wasn’t over, had Oden landed that hit. Do you still not understand this?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yes, but if you don’t have proof, that Kaidou/WB would definitely live through that second hit; you can’t claim the battle definitely wasn’t over, had Oden landed that hit. Do you still not understand this?


Anatomy is my proof. You're talking to a future Doc mon ami.


joking aside, I think I brought evidence, you think I didn't. Let's leave it this way and may others understand what they want.


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## Turrin (Apr 29, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Anatomy is my proof. You're talking to a future Doc mon ami.
> 
> 
> joking aside, I think I brought evidence, you say I didn't. Let's leave it this way and may others understand what they want.


Yes you ‘think’; which brings us back to I can show you a picture of the color blue; and you can ‘think’ it’s purple, but it’s still blue.


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## Fujitora (Apr 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> So your basically going to Ignore the fact that Kaidou was clearly shown on the front lines in the battle between Roger/Garp and Rocks?
> 
> He clearly was well known enough that Orochi cited his name to Oden as if it would scare him off. Plus even if we go off Kaidou hype 20Y before the series began which would include beating Prime Moriah; and overthrowing Oden. Akainu was maybe a best a VA by then; and Shanks was still a little kid. There levels of infamy are vastly different.


I litteraly just adressed it mate? Ofc course he would be shown in the context since sengoku was talking about those who would go on to make a name for themselves after the rocks pirates downfall. And of course he would be highlighted with the others as they are the only ones we know of that era, do you want me to show random commander n4-5? Its the highlight the importance of the crew. jesus.
Yes, 18 years after god valley he was getting known enough for that. He also just said that he has a pirate named kaido backing him. See how they called him that? Just a pirate.



Duhul10 said:


> Anatomy is my proof. You're talking to a future Doc mon ami.
> 
> 
> joking aside, I think I brought evidence, you think I didn't. Let's leave it this way and may others understand what they want.


I understand you my friend, he doesnt. The man is a litteral brick wall that doesnt budge and selectively reads others messages and even the manga to fit what he thinks is right.



MasterBeast said:


> @OniKaido
> If Kaidou could not react while in the air, I don’t see how he would react once he was already on the floor and Oden mere inches away from him landing his attack.


Bro he wasnt even looking at oden half the time, he only saw him coming at the last second when he jumped. Ofc he would react once he gets it and on the floor. Knowing the dude is coming for the next attack. It doesnt take much effort to lift up your arms with the club to block. I dont understand how its so hard to understand? Oda left the ending of that fight inconclusive on purpose. It is to mirror the sour taste that was left in the mouth of kaido after clubbing oden and seing the hag there.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I understand you my friend, he doesnt. The man is a litteral brick wall that doesnt budge and selectively reads others messages and even the manga to fit what he thinks is right.


This is interesting. Please be more specific, what was Turrin wrong about?


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## Beast (Apr 29, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> Bro he wasnt even looking at oden half the time, he only saw him coming at the last second when he jumped. Ofc he would react once he gets it and on the floor. Knowing the dude is coming for the next attack. It doesnt take much effort to lift up your arms with the club to block. I dont understand how its so hard to understand? Oda left the ending of that fight inconclusive on purpose. It is to mirror the sour taste that was left in the mouth of kaido after clubbing oden and seing the hag there.


oden WOULD have finished Kaidou had he LANDED his attack is my point. Kaidou reacting, dodging or blocking is nothing short of fanfic imo. He couldn’t block the first one why would he now react to a sword already swinging for his head... in the time Oden turned around and ran to his son, it would have take him a FRACTION of that time to land his attack.


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## Fel1x (Apr 29, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> oden WOULD have finished Kaidou had he LANDED his attack is my point. Kaidou reacting, dodging or blocking is nothing short of fanfic imo. He couldn’t block the first one why would he now react to a sword already swinging for his head... in the time Oden turned around and ran to his son, it would have take him a FRACTION of that time to land his attack.


the guy literally told you why first hit was successful. Kaido vs Oden is literally Kaido vs Luffy in almost every detail, only with the exception that Oden hitted harder than Luffy. it's game over when Kaido stands again in his base. hostage or not, Oden was doomed in any circumstances 

I'll again say what @OniKaido said to you in another words: Kaido aoe shotted Oden with fire. he thought the dude was dead, wasn't looking at his location till Oden screamed his attack name. it was too late for a person as big as Dragon Kaido to do anything. especially when Oden is not a joke for quick attacks


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## Beast (Apr 30, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> the guy literally told you why first hit was successful. Kaido vs Oden is literally Kaido vs Luffy in almost every detail, only with the exception that Oden hitted harder than Luffy. it's game over when Kaido stands again in his base. hostage or not, Oden was doomed in any circumstances
> 
> I'll again say what @OniKaido said to you in another words: Kaido aoe shotted Oden with fire. he thought the dude was dead, wasn't looking at his location till Oden screamed his attack name. it was too late for a person as big as Dragon Kaido to do anything. especially when Oden is not a joke for quick attacks


Find out what a 1 shot is and then come back, there is nothing remotely similar between Luffy/ Kaidou and oden/ Kaidou, it’s a joke that you think that they are. 
I’m not going to dwell in fanfic about Kaidou blocking or reacting when he could not ON PANEL.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I litteraly just adressed it mate? Ofc course he would be shown in the context since sengoku was talking about those who would go on to make a name for themselves after the rocks pirates downfall. And of course he would be highlighted with the others as they are the only ones we know of that era, do you want me to show random commander n4-5? Its the highlight the importance of the crew. jesus.
> Yes, 18 years after god valley he was getting known enough for that. He also just said that he has a pirate named kaido backing him. See how they called him that? Just a pirate.
> 
> 
> ...


Showing Kaidou as one of the crew is different then thinking back to the actual battle with Kaidou on the front lines.

Kaidou is still a Pirate now lol; so what does that matter. 20Y ago Kaidou had been a member of Rocks, Fought at God Vally, Took over Wano, defeated Prime Moriah, and “defeated” Oden’s Rebellion. Can you tell me what Shanks and Akainu had done until then that is anywhere near equivalent?

And saying I’m like talking to a brick wall when you refuse to admit Kaidou was more famous then Akainu / Shanks 38~20 Years ago is absurd dude


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## Fel1x (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Showing Kaidou as one of the crew is different then thinking back to the actual battle with Kaidou on the front lines.
> 
> Kaidou is still a Pirate now lol; so what does that matter. 20Y ago Kaidou had been a member of Rocks, Fought at God Vally, Took over Wano, defeated Prime Moriah, and “defeated” Oden’s Rebellion. Can you tell me what Shanks and Akainu had done until then that is anywhere near equivalent?
> 
> And saying I’m like talking to a brick wall when you refuse to admit Kaidou was more famous then Akainu / Shanks 38~20 Years ago is absurd dude


Akainu is a marine. what kind of feats like Kaido's do you expect him to have? Marines are not about some crazy feats, they just try to control the situation and reduce the damage if they can. Garp is an exception and the only marine with top feats. Akainu was too young to be involved in God Valley battle, too young to have feats during Roger's era too. after Roger's era almost all marine feats are not in the story. who knows, may be Akainu was in marine group that unsuccessfully captured Kaido. that is a feat too. but personally I don't think marines ever caught Kaido after him taking over Wano. he became too big and strong for them. and too famous to actially let him go after him being captured. Wano feat Kaido will be guarded by all admirals together

the same situation is about Shanks. he is was too young to have feats like that. all big feats were done in Xebec's or Roger's era. But being a member of PK crew and to be youngest Yonko ever is big feats that can be compared to Kaido's


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Fel1x said:


> Akainu is a marine. what kind of feats like Kaido's do you expect him to have? Marines are not about some crazy feats, they just try to control the situation and reduce the damage if they can. Garp is an exception and the only marine with top feats. Akainu was too young to be involved in God Valley battle, too young to have feats during Roger's era too. after Roger's era almost all marine feats are not in the story. who knows, may be Akainu was in marine group that unsuccessfully captured Kaido. that is a feat too. but personally I don't think marines ever caught Kaido after him taking over Wano. he became too big and strong for them. and too famous to actially let him go after him being captured. Wano feat Kaido will be guarded by all admirals together
> 
> the same situation is about Shanks. he is was too young to have feats like that. all big feats were done in Xebec's or Roger's era. But being a member of PK crew and to be youngest Yonko ever is big feats that can be compared to Kaido's


This is my point Kaidou was more famous then Akainu and Shanks at that time


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## Fujitora (Apr 30, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Find out what a 1 shot is and then come back, there is nothing remotely similar between Luffy/ Kaidou and oden/ Kaidou, it’s a joke that you think that they are.
> I’m not going to dwell in fanfic about Kaidou blocking or reacting when he could not ON PANEL.


It’s also fanfic to think oden would’ve finished him off, neither he nor kaido said he would’ve. So basically both are fanfic, except our side has more weight to it because right after falling down he went back to human form and ran towards oden and clubbed him pretty fucking fast )



Turrin said:


> Showing Kaidou as one of the crew is different then thinking back to the actual battle with Kaidou on the front lines.
> 
> Kaidou is still a Pirate now lol; so what does that matter. 20Y ago Kaidou had been a member of Rocks, Fought at God Vally, Took over Wano, defeated Prime Moriah, and “defeated” Oden’s Rebellion. Can you tell me what Shanks and Akainu had done until then that is anywhere near equivalent?
> 
> And saying I’m like talking to a brick wall when you refuse to admit Kaidou was more famous then Akainu / Shanks 38~20 Years ago is absurd dude


I’ll give you shanks but idk about akainu, dude seemed pretty well known along side aokiji during the ohara incident tbh. And if you’re using that blurry ass panel where they show them fighting to justify kaido being a powerhouse back then already when the man was a fcking teenager is pretty funny.



MasterBeast said:


> oden WOULD have finished Kaidou had he LANDED his attack is my point. Kaidou reacting, dodging or blocking is nothing short of fanfic imo. He couldn’t block the first one why would he now react to a sword already swinging for his head... in the time Oden turned around and ran to his son, it would have take him a FRACTION of that time to land his attack.


Yours is as much fanfic as mine and I already addressed it. Him not being to block a sword attack in his dragon form is different from him not being able to block it in his human form so I don’t get what you’re saying. Then in the time he did all that it would’ve taken a fraction of what kaido did to get his club up and block. The same thing he fucking did back at the castle.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> It’s also fanfic to think oden would’ve finished him off, neither he nor kaido said he would’ve. So basically both are fanfic, except our side has more weight to it because right after falling down he went back to human form and ran towards oden and clubbed him pretty fucking fast )
> 
> 
> I’ll give you shanks but idk about akainu, dude seemed pretty well known along side aokiji during the ohara incident tbh. And if you’re using that blurry ass panel where they show them fighting to justify kaido being a powerhouse back then already when the man was a fcking teenager is pretty funny.
> ...


I mean Akainu was only a VA at that point; and I’m sorry to say but (aside from obvious outlier Garp) there is no VAs that are matching what Kaidou accomplished. 

Anyway Kaidou has been famous longer then Akainu ether way. Couple that with Kaidou reputation of being invulnerable.

As I said in another thread Kaidou due to his insane durability further augmented by his mythic Zoan; probably gives him the aura of invincibility; as normal people don’t know dick about moves to counter such invincibility like Advanced CoA, after all Luffy trained with Raleigh for Years and still didn’t fully know about the concept. 

It’s easy to see why the public would back Kaidou in a 1v1 fight even though the outcome may not be so clear cut.


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## Beast (Apr 30, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> It’s also fanfic to think oden would’ve finished him off, neither he nor kaido said he would’ve. So basically both are fanfic, except our side has more weight to it because right after falling down he went back to human form and ran towards oden and clubbed him pretty fucking fast )
> 
> 
> I’ll give you shanks but idk about akainu, dude seemed pretty well known along side aokiji during the ohara incident tbh. And if you’re using that blurry ass panel where they show them fighting to justify kaido being a powerhouse back then already when the man was a fcking teenager is pretty funny.
> ...


Kaidou wasn’t in his human form TIL AFTER Oden turned around and ran to his son, that is fact, you saying he will change forms and block, while Oden is already MID swing is fanfic.


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## Fujitora (May 1, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Kaidou wasn’t in his human form TIL AFTER Oden turned around and ran to his son, that is fact, you saying he will change forms and block, while Oden is already MID swing is fanfic.


And yet he did exactly that and more in the instant it took for oden to turn around and look at momo. You see yours is as much fanfic as mine buddy.
Since it didn’t happen. If nothing else the only thing you can say oden actually did is that he cut kaido which we already knew. The rest is fanfic.



Turrin said:


> I mean Akainu was only a VA at that point; and I’m sorry to say but (aside from obvious outlier Garp) there is no VAs that are matching what Kaidou accomplished.
> 
> Anyway Kaidou has been famous longer then Akainu ether way. Couple that with Kaidou reputation of being invulnerable.
> 
> ...


Luffy trained with Rayleigh for 1.5 years not “years”, and he only got taught the basics. Don’t act as if advanced Coa is rare or anything. We don’t know so we can’t say.

And what’s telling you that va akainu wasn’t as known ? Oh right nothing, you’re basically speculating again.


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## Red Admiral (May 1, 2020)

Shanks >= kaido >= Big Mom > Teach > Akainu >= Kuzan >= Kizaru > Fujitora


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## Beast (May 1, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> And yet he did exactly that and more in the instant it took for oden to turn around and look at momo. You see yours is as much fanfic as mine buddy.
> Since it didn’t happen. If nothing else the only thing you can say oden actually did is that he cut kaido which we already knew. The rest is fanfic.
> 
> 
> ...


You’re in denial mate.


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## Turrin (May 1, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> And yet he did exactly that and more in the instant it took for oden to turn around and look at momo. You see yours is as much fanfic as mine buddy.
> Since it didn’t happen. If nothing else the only thing you can say oden actually did is that he cut kaido which we already knew. The rest is fanfic.
> 
> 
> ...


In the entire world? There are relatively few in the world who can even use Haki. Out of those individuals many are not CoA types, and out of the CoA types many do not know of or possess Advanced CoA to the point of even creating the invisible barrier, let alone the final form of the internal strike. So yes I very much doubt the general Public or even most Pirates/Marines know about Advanced CoA

Asking me to prove 100% that Akainu wasn’t as famous as Kaidou, is absurd. We go with the stance that has more evidence supporting it; and there is way more evidence that Kaidou was more famous at that time; it’s also a fact that Kaidou had been active as a Pirate longer then Akainu was as Marine


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## Gomu (May 1, 2020)

Gomu said:


> This is interesting. Please be more specific, what was Turrin wrong about?


This didn't age well.


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## Turrin (May 1, 2020)

Gomu said:


> This didn't age well.


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## TheWiggian (May 1, 2020)

Shnitchanks with WG support > Kaido = Shanks > Meme >=< Blackbeard


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## Fujitora (May 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> In the entire world? There are relatively few in the world who can even use Haki. Out of those individuals many are not CoA types, and out of the CoA types many do not know of or possess Advanced CoA to the point of even creating the invisible barrier, let alone the final form of the internal strike. So yes I very much doubt the general Public or even most Pirates/Marines know about Advanced CoA
> 
> Asking me to prove 100% that Akainu wasn’t as famous as Kaidou, is absurd. We go with the stance that has more evidence supporting it; and there is way more evidence that Kaidou was more famous at that time; it’s also a fact that Kaidou had been active as a Pirate longer then Akainu was as Marine


I didn’t say general public I said top tiers. And I just showed you that aokiji and akainu were very we known powerhouses even among other vice admirals back in ohara. So how exactly can you assume young kaido was more famous?


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## neoacacia (May 2, 2020)

People are gonna be upset when akainu puts a magma fist through their favourite yonko


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## Turrin (May 2, 2020)

OniKaido said:


> I didn’t say general public I said top tiers. And I just showed you that aokiji and akainu were very we known powerhouses even among other vice admirals back in ohara. So how exactly can you assume young kaido was more famous?


Kaidou hype is from the general public though; it’s people say, bet on Kaidou 1v1. If we had actually Top Tiers saying Kaidou wins against other Top Tiers or is unbeatable 1v1, we wouldn’t be having this conversation as I would be on your side that Kaidou is probably the strongest, but that doesn’t exist, along with anything that really supports Kaidou hype besides, people say that he is X

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Aug 20, 2021)

Turrin said:


> Why is he equal to Marco?
> 
> Ether way P2 Marco is probably >= Kaidou as well. Phoenix >= Dragon. And Marco was already top YC1 in MF if he got stronger now he is likely Low-Yonko level like Kaidou


    
How many Ls can my boy handle?...

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Strobacaxi (Aug 20, 2021)

I was starting to go crazy thinking i missed 20 pages but it's a necro LOL

Got me good my man


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## TheWiggian (Aug 20, 2021)

Good ol' days  

While I believed that Shanks and BB outweigh Sakazuki combined in plot relevance, it seem that i have missed the fact that Fujitora will play a massive part in dividing good marines from the fanatics. Which is a worldwide change and a carries a lot of relevance.

1. Admirals 
2. Admirals 
3. Admirals 

Clean and convincing win in all categories.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Turrin (Aug 20, 2021)

Duhul10 said:


> How many Ls can my boy handle?...


You need to quote a bait post from over a year ago to try and get a win on me, how sad Duhl

In before your on your knees crying when Kaidou gets clapped by Luffy

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Kamisori (Aug 20, 2021)

2 Emperors couldn't take down 5 fodders, I think it should be clear who is superior.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## trance (Aug 20, 2021)

why tho


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## Captain Altintop (Aug 20, 2021)

1) Yonko slightly higher relevance in terms of story progress. Overall, I see both Yonko and Admirals being very relevant since one group wouldn't coexist without the other.

2) In terms of strength, they should be very similar. Currently because of Aokiji's departure, the Yonko might have the slightest upperhand because of the newcomer Fuji/Ryu who should be slightly below the C3.

3) I would give it to the Yonko *only because of Teach *since he's the only person who can beat even Akainu/Kizaru less than extreme-ish difficulty. He is the *worst matchup *for any logia Admiral.


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## YonkoRedHairShanks. (Aug 20, 2021)

Yonko win all


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