# Kisame & Itachi vs. Ei, Killer B & Raikagenaut



## Joakim3 (Jul 13, 2013)

*Distance:* 25m
*Location:* Unraikyo
*SoM:* IC
*Knowledge:* Full
*Restrictions:* None

*Stipulations:*
Itachi is healthy, Samehada won't betray Kisame


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## Nikushimi (Jul 14, 2013)

This could go either way depending on how long Itachi can keep Kisame in the fight.


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## trance (Jul 14, 2013)

Bee lobs a bijūdama at Itachi and Kisame. Let's see Samehada absorb that.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 14, 2013)

I think Daikoudan would counter Bijuudama if not send it back at the other team.


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## Ersa (Jul 14, 2013)

Itachi will Amaterasu B long before he can charge up a Bijuudama.

Although I agree this could go either way, Killer B and Itachi are similar in terms of power with the latter having a massive DC advantage offset by the former's hax and Kisame is more or less on par with the Raikages so honestly numbers favour them. Depends if Itachi can keep Kisame around, they need to win quickly as attrition is not going to favour them.


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## Jizznificent (Jul 14, 2013)

raikagenaut keeps itachi busy. 

Ay and bee surround kisame, double lariat, GG. 

now Ay and bee surround itachi with raikagenaut.

itachi gets susanoo up but it is no use; he gets blitz by a triple lariat+finger nukte combo, his susanoo explodes and he gets chopped to pieces. GG.


this was no genjutsu.


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## Zuhaitz (Jul 14, 2013)

Bee is on Itachi's level, if not a little above thanks to Gyuuki. 
A and his father are more powerful than Kisame.


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## Samehadaman (Jul 14, 2013)

Zuhaitz said:


> A and his father are more powerful than Kisame.



Kisame is a pretty bad matchup for them. If he goes for ranged chakra draining attacks, that's pretty much the ideal way to handle the Raikages.
Water Dome completely shits on A and Raikagenaut because they have no chance at getting close to Kisamehada inside water (no leverage for their kind of speed and they can't even sense where he is, while he can) and their lightning cloak will get drained very quickly by Kisamehada, judging by how it drained Killer B who has way way more chakra than them. The giant chakra consuming shark is also something they can't counter, being CQC fighters that rely on elemental enhancements.


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## Shizune (Jul 14, 2013)

I think one of the deciding factors here will be the synergy among the teams. I don't really like Itachi and Kisame as a pair, because they don't compliment one another, and Kisame's jutsu can in fact be very obstructive to Itachi. In that sense, Kisame is gimped here, because were he to unleash everything he has... well, he'd need to give Itachi some serious swimming lessons first.

That said, the duo still has a strong chance at winning, but I also think that full knowledge will act as a disadvantage to them here in the sense that it'll benefit their opponents far more than it will them. The raikages and B use straightforward techniques, and what you see is what you get, whereas Itachi and Kisame frequently win fights based solely on the element of surprise.

It's an uphill battle. They're going to have to play a clever defensive game to keep the raikages and a bijuu at bay. They have the toolbox necessary to win this fight, but it's going to be about making opportunities to use the right things on the right people at the right time. I agree with Niku saying that Kisame's survival is a critical element for his team, because he lacks means of defending against his opponents' attacks but his presence will be crucial if Itachi wants to have the chance to land his mangekyo techniques effectively.

I think it comes down to the Kumo team being stacked with extremely strong fighters who can cooperate significantly better than the Akatsuki duo can. Being outnumbered and outplayed is going to be Itachi and Kisame's downfall here. I think an advantage in knowledge could make this fight a lot more even, as it would ensure more casualties for the Kumo team, but as things are now the duo has a very slim chance at taking this and the raikages + B will win more often than not.


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## Rain (Jul 14, 2013)

Kisame gives Itachi some chakra.

The King proceeds to solo.


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## Kai (Jul 14, 2013)

The two Raikages force all of Itachi's attention with their incredible speed and synergy. Itachi can't look out for Kisame under such tight constraints.

Bee wrecks Kisame in Bijuu Mode, and then joins the Kumo fam in shattering Itachi's Susano'o and double/triple lariating him for the finishing blow.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 14, 2013)

Itachi and Kisame win.

At 25 meters, Amaterasu catches Killer B/Sandaime Raikage, while Ei manages to escape and tango with Kisame. From there, Itachi proceeds to slaughter the Hachibi via Totsuka no Tsurugi, leaving his counterpart to burn uncomfortably. Unraikyo is a location that would favor Kisame, as there is a considerable amount of water present; he can morph the environment to his advantage and spam attacks that boast an outrageous AoE, in fact. Suiton: Senshokukou tears a chunk out of Ei's ass, and he doesn't have the necessary offense - akin to Asa Kujaku - that is capable of negating their presence. Once Kisame drowns or exhausts his opponent, he joins Itachi to rape the remaining fella (if  the latter hasn't turned to ash).


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## Sans (Jul 14, 2013)

Trance said:


> Bee lobs a bijūdama at Itachi and Kisame. Let's see Samehada absorb that.



Let's see Kirabi transform and create a Bijuudama before Itachi uses Amaterasu on him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 14, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Let's see Kirabi transform and create a Bijuudama before Itachi uses Amaterasu on him.


Bee has a counter for Amaterasu already, you know? And Itachi's Amaterasu charge time is far longer than Sasuke's, and he's always open if he does that. He's facing two people who are far faster than him too who will force him into defense. Bee can comfortably handle Kisame now too since he doesn't have to worry about Sabu and Ponta, Kisame gets crushed by Gyuki's full might. 

Itachi ends up on the end of a One-Finger Nukite to penetrate and destroy his Susano'o then a Raiga Bombu when he's still suffering the devastating effects of Susano'o on his body.


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## Rocky (Jul 14, 2013)

Why is Raikage's finger destroying Itachi's legendary Susano'o.


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## Bonly Jr. (Jul 14, 2013)

Kumo trio rape these guys.

Hachibi enjoys some good Sushi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Why is Raikage's finger destroying Itachi's legendary Susano'o.


Since Itachi's Susano'o doesn't have the feats to block it? Yata Mirror is pure hype.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since Itachi's Susano'o doesn't have the feats to block it? Yata Mirror is pure hype.



One-Finger Nukite > Kirin?


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## Gibbs (Jul 14, 2013)

Itachi Tsukyomi's the thired Raikage, while Kisame holds off A and B.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 14, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> Itachi Tsukyomi's the thired Raikage, while Kisame holds off A and B.


The Third Raikage is too fast enough for eye contact to be made with Itachi, and Kisame...Bee can handle him alone.


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## Rocky (Jul 14, 2013)

Kisame can't beat a full knowledge Ei.

The Raikage wouldn't charge blindly into Samehada. Kisame instead will face a 800 km/h lighting Shunshin neck chop from his flank (where Samehada cannot guard), which neither him or his sword could ever hope to react to.


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## trance (Jul 14, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Let's see Kirabi transform and create a Bijuudama before Itachi uses Amaterasu on him.



Like Itachi's gonna have time to do that when Ei's gonna be on his ass from the start. With knowledge, Ei knows he's the only one who can avoid Amaterasu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Kisame can't beat a full knowledge Ei.
> 
> The Raikage wouldn't charge blindly into Samehada. Kisame instead will face a 800 km/h lighting Shunshin neck chop from his flank, which neither him or his sword could ever hope to react to.


More like Mach 143 Raikage against a Mach 14-42 Kisame.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Third Raikage is too fast enough for eye contact to be made with Itachi, and Kisame...Bee can handle him alone.



Amaterasu is faster than Killer B/Sandaime Raikage, and Itachi can simply grab the latter via Susano'o appendages - after the Hachibi is dealt with - which enables him to force eye contact and use Tsukuyomi.


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More like Mach 143 Raikage against a Mach 14-42 Kisame.




There's a big difference between Mach 14 and Mach 42. Why is the calc inconclusive?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> There's a big difference between Mach 14 and Mach 42. Why is the calc inconclusive?


Kisame isn't top tier speed, around High Tier. Mach 14 applies to fodder Jonin and elite Genin in Part I, while Mach 42 applies to most Kage.



King Itachi said:


> Amaterasu is faster than Killer B/Sandaime Raikage, and Itachi can simply grab the latter via Susano'o appendages - after the Hachibi is dealt with - which enables him to force eye contact and use Tsukuyomi.


Itachi has a LONGER CHARGE TIME FOR AMATERASU than Sasuke. His charge time is at least as fast as that of what Killer Bee's thrown swords can do. Sandaime Raikage could evade Futon: Rasenshuriken twice with ease. 

Geeze, stop wanking Itachi for god's sake.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame isn't top tier speed, around High Tier. Mach 14 applies to fodder Jonin and elite Genin in Part I, while Mach 42 applies to most Kage.



Short of Ei's _V2 Shunshin_ Kisame is more than capable of reacting to any of Kumo trio's CqC assaults. He is not being blitzed by anyone bar Ei himself (and Ei can't kill Kisame in 1 hit)



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi has a LONGER CHARGE TIME FOR AMATERASU than Sasuke. His charge time is at least as fast as that of what Killer Bee's thrown swords can do. Sandaime Raikage could evade Futon: Rasenshuriken twice with ease.



Even with Itachi's longer charge time. Raikagenaut is not evading _Amaterasu_, Tendo replicated his feat in jumping FRS and SM Naruto was capable of outpacing both of them... and he can't dodge _Amaterasu_ even with Sage precog

Oh, and with full knowledge one of Kumo trio is being dropped via Tsukuyomai, it's unavoidable as all of them bar Killer B rely 100% on CqC.. which is an auto no no against Itach



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Geeze, stop wanking Itachi for god's sake.



It's not wank, when individually Itachi is stronger than any one of the Kumo trio, and with full knowledge...


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't understand why people think Kisame is on a lower level than either Raikage, or even Bee for that matter. Kisame has stronger ninjutsu than either Itachi or Bee and far above either Raikage IMO.

And then there's the syncronicity of Itachi and Kisame compared to the opposition. Itachi has a chakra battery, and even his lil' suiton: suigaiden is extremely broken in these circumstances.



> NINJUTSU; Suiton: Suigadan (Water Fang Bullets)
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Offensive; Close range; Rank B
> 
> ...



Itachi can essentially remotely put a drill in their heads from their blindspots if they're submerged in water, and with his seal speed, he'd probably do it before they even started swimming.​


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I don't understand why people think Kisame is on a lower level than either Raikage, or even Bee for that matter. His ninjutsu is on an entirely different level.
> 
> I mean think about him playing strategically. He uses his dome, makes a clone to assist Itachi in swimming if necessary, and that automatically shuts down the (running) speed of the two Raikage.​




The Raikage holds the speed advantage by such a large margin that that scenario won't play out. Kisame has no Susano'o, so he has no defense against being flanked and chopped in the neck by a lighting covered bruiser before his mind tells his body to move.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The Raikage holds the speed advantage by such a large margin that that scenario won't play out. Kisame has no Susano'o, so he has no defense against being flanked and chopped in the neck by a lighting covered bruiser before his mind tells his body to move.



Are you sure this interpretation isn't based on the White Zetsu clone being unable to react? 

I'm pretty positive Kisame is going to be able to use a giant suiton or even doton underground before that happens, particularly because he has  Itachi keeping him from fooling around.

Heck Itachi would be able to cover himself and Kisame in Susano'o hand if worse came to worse, just like he did against Kabuto. Then Kisame can make a lake, clones, or start firing giant missiles.​


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Are you sure this interpretation isn't based on the White Zetsu clone being unable to react? ​




It's based on Sasuke not being able to trace Ei in the slightest. He completely overrides the Sharingan's cognition. Hell the man nearly decked Minato in the face. Kisame isn't reacting to that kind of speed. That's the entire point to the Raikage's character, speedblitz.

Remember how helpless Gaara was against Lee?


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi has a LONGER CHARGE TIME FOR AMATERASU than Sasuke.



And? The difference isn't profuse enough to warrant a speed blitz; they must activate their respective modes, too. Even then, Killer B/Sandaime Raikage aren't capable of evading its large AoE. 

Kisame can react to any of their assaults - bar Ei's amplified Shunshin - and one hit from the latter isn't eliminating the guy that tanked Hirudora. A group of Mizu Bunshin, accompanied by Itachi's variant, can distract the Yondaime Raikage and leave him vulnerable to blindside attacks. Once Kisame reaches the water or creates an ocean, Ei is basically at his mercy. Doton: Dochuu Senkou allows him to travel underground at notable speeds, making it harder to land physical attacks. 



> His charge time is at least as fast as that of what Killer Bee's thrown swords can do.



Which isn't really slow...

There are different points of interest, as well. 
Killer B's position, in relation to Cerberus, is worthy of consideration.



> Sandaime Raikage could evade Futon: Rasenshuriken twice with ease.



Amaterasu is faster than FRS, so that is a faulty comparison; the latter isn't an instant technique, as it travels to a specific position. If you're referring to the 'Itachi vs. Sasuke' fight, it has been made clear the former didn't have malicious intentions. When Itachi ignited Nagato and his crow, the charge time seemed to be instantaneous. 

That said, there are many factors to consider. 

7
7



> Geeze, stop wanking Itachi for god's sake.



As expected, you're the one who is underestimating Itachi.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2013)

Only V2 A's Shunshin will be too fast for Itachi to react to and require Susanoo, it's downright laughable to believe he can't at least keep up with V1 A considering Sasuke's feat and his own of keeping up with KCM Naruto without Shunshin. Kisame on the other hand will be hard-pressed to keep up with these speedsters but some clever use of clones and Itachi's aid may bail him out.


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## Rocky (Jul 15, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Only V2 A's Shunshin will be too fast for Itachi to react to and require Susanoo, it's downright laughable to believe he can't at least keep up with V1 A considering Sasuke's feat and his own of keeping up with KCM Naruto without Shunshin.




Itachi should be able to _react_ to the Raikage in "V1", but he won't last long without Susano'o. Itachi kept up with a 7 percent KCM Naruto, and that isn't a very special feat. Sasuke basically landed two hits that did nothing then got powerbombed into the ground. Normal Ninja like the Uchiha cannot just fight the Raikage in a brawl without Susano'o.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke basically landed two hits that did nothing then got powerbombed into the ground. Normal Ninja like the Uchiha cannot just fight the Raikage in a brawl without Susano'o.



The Raikage didn't outspeed or outmove Sasuke to piledrive him. Sasuke outmaneuvered _him_ and landed a Chidori to the chest. It's just that A's meter-thick pecks barely registered the deep gash.

He then capitalized on that moment by grabbing Sasuke.

If Sasuke kept up with the Raikage, then Itachi would as well. Aside from that, I feel like you're using the same reasoning that people used to use for a hypothetical Itachi versus Bee match. 

'Bee overwhelms Itachi with swords or surprise-blitzes Itachi after genjutsu because it happened to Sasuke?' Nope. Itachi is more cautious, more nimble, and trickier than his brother.

Bee and v1 Raikage are similar brawlers, so Itachi would react similarly, and it should also be noted: the Raikage doesn't have an internal beast to break him out of genjutsu in the nick of time.

Sasuke's problem is that he doesn't maximize his finesse. He gets in close and dirty which is why he came up short. If he had adopted evasiveness and used mid-range tactics...​


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## eyeknockout (Jul 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi should be able to _react_ to the Raikage in "V1", but he won't last long without Susano'o. Itachi kept up with a 7 percent KCM Naruto, and that isn't a very special feat. Sasuke basically landed two hits that did nothing then got powerbombed into the ground. Normal Ninja like the Uchiha cannot just fight the Raikage in a brawl without Susano'o.



ok, and once susanoo comes out what are they gonna do? you think raikage can dodge the very fast totsuka longer than itachi can hold up susanoo? because that shunshin takes bijuu level chakras to use so raikage will burn out very fast especially if itachi starts off with susanoo. sandaime raikage will not be dodging totsuka for long either even if he does, he will be caught in genjutsu if he looks at itachi. bee cannot defeat kisame unless he goes full hachibi mode which in that case he is a very easy target for totsuka.

itachi and kisame win


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Itachi should be able to _react_ to the Raikage in "V1", but he won't last long without Susano'o. Itachi kept up with a 7 percent KCM Naruto, and that isn't a very special feat. Sasuke basically landed two hits that did nothing then got powerbombed into the ground. Normal Ninja like the Uchiha cannot just fight the Raikage in a brawl without Susano'o.


7% Naruto is a ridiculously exaggerated theory.

I'll agree Naruto was not near full power but I don't believe the author intended for Naruto's stats to dip that much, he couldn't spam clones due to his chakra being spread out but I don't think his physical stats were affected too much. Would there be a difference? Yes but not an insane amount, I mean people think Kakashi = Itachi in physical stats based off the Shoten exchange. He was not using Shunshin however, I don't think Itachi can keep up with that but granted KCM Naruto > V2 A. I think scaling off Sasuke and Itachi's superior reflexes should allow him to keep his distance and avoid a blitz.

Sasuke actually attacked however, Itachi is far more cautious and will not charge the Raikage with a kunai but opt to keep his distance. If Itachi can keep his distance and they manage to kill one of their opponents (a difficult task) then the odds shift in their favour considerably. 

Or Kisame uses Waterdome and Itachi Henges into a fish


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## ueharakk (Jul 15, 2013)

eyeknockout said:


> ok, and once susanoo comes out what are they gonna do?


nuke it with bijuudama barrage?  Shank it with nukite which is > FRS?



eyeknockout said:


> you think raikage can dodge the very fast totsuka longer than itachi can hold up susanoo?


considering itachi has to manifest a lvl4 susanoo, why does either raikage have to stay in totsuka's range once that susanoo is up?  and yeah, Ei can dodge it indefinitely if 5 of madara's susanoos can't critically wound him with a sword and it can't pierce sandaime raikage so....



eyeknockout said:


> sandaime raikage will not be dodging totsuka for long either even if he does, he will be caught in genjutsu if he looks at itachi.





eyeknockout said:


> bee cannot defeat kisame unless he goes full hachibi mode which in that case he is a very easy target for totsuka.


or bee with full knowledge goes full bijuumode out of totsuka's range, or while itachi's leveling his suanoo up, and ends both of them with rapidfire bijuudama or whirlwind + rapidfire bijuudama?


I don't think this is a very difficult battle for the big guys.  Bee can end both of them with rapidfire bijuudama, can block amaterasu with his tails (full knowledge), or can fire a bijuuwave if kisame's daikodan can absorb the bijuudamas.  All that is needed is sandaime raikage and Ei to occupy itachi and kisame long enough for him to get some distance.  Both sandaime raikage and Ei beat kisame 1 vs 1 unless he goes instant water dome + fusion (which screws itachi).  Itachi's susanoo can't stand up to nukite from the back if we powerscale it to FRS and then to danzou's fuuton.


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## Sans (Jul 15, 2013)

Trance said:


> Like Itachi's gonna have time to do that when Ei's gonna be on his ass from the start. With knowledge, Ei knows he's the only one who can avoid Amaterasu.



I'm not going to comment on the fight in general, but I still disagree here. 

Itachi has summoned his mid-level Susano'o manifestations from base. Ei could barely crack Sasuke's rib-cage Susano'o. If Itachi needs space to prevent Bijuudama from erasing him and Kisame, no one on the other team can really prevent it.


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## Ersa (Jul 15, 2013)

Itachi's Susanoo can't be power-scaled from Sasuke's.

All we know is that Kirin busted some unknown form of Susanoo and that Yata is 'invinicible'. Damn Kishi needs to show some V4 Susanoo feats


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## Sans (Jul 15, 2013)

Did we just get to _Joakim_ being accused of wanking Itachi?

Yeah I'm leaving NF. Nothing can ever reach that amazing height again.


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## Sans (Jul 15, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Itachi's Susanoo can't be power-scaled from Sasuke's.
> 
> All we know is that Kirin busted some unknown form of Susanoo and that Yata is 'invinicible'. Damn Kishi needs to show some V4 Susanoo feats



Saying that Itachi's more advanced Susano'o can surpass a newer, inexperienced Mangekyou users weaker Susano'o feats does not seem unreasonable.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Short of Ei's _V2 Shunshin_ Kisame is more than capable of reacting to any of Kumo trio's CqC assaults. He is not being blitzed by anyone bar Ei himself (and Ei can't kill Kisame in 1 hit)


Kisame is incapable of reacting to A's V1 speed, which is also the Sandaime Raikage's speed. And A CAN kill Kisame with one hit, he can even behead Kisame with his raiton manipulation.

Not that it matters, without Ponta and Sabu to limit Killer Bee, he can comfortably overwhelm Kisame on his own.


> Even with Itachi's longer charge time. Raikagenaut is not evading _Amaterasu_, Tendo replicated his feat in jumping FRS and SM Naruto was capable of outpacing both of them... and he can't dodge _Amaterasu_ even with Sage precog


The Sandaime Raikage _avoided the FRS twice_, even while blinded, and completely casually. Deva Path had to struggle to dodge it due to his low chakra. 

And why shouldn't the Sandaime Raikage be able to avoid Itachi's slower Amaterasu? Hebi Sasuke was able to without a shunshin or any speed even approaching Sandaime Raikage's or Bee's. 


> Oh, and with full knowledge one of Kumo trio is being dropped via Tsukuyomai, it's unavoidable as all of them bar Killer B rely 100% on CqC.. which is an auto no no against Itachi


Tsukuyomi has been unable to be used against High Tiers or Top Tiers since Part I where it was used on a Mid and Low Tier, Kakashi and Genin Sasuke respectively. I don't think its power works as well against a High Tier opponent. Not only that, it IS avoidable. By the time Itachi builds up the chakra for it, he'd be blitzed by A moving at full speed.




> It's not wank, when individually Itachi is stronger than any one of the Kumo trio, and with full knowledge...


It IS wank. Bee is stronger than Itachi due to all the feats he's gotten, can blow away Itachi's Susano'o with Bijudama and counter Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. A is both faster and physically stronger than him, and nothing barring Amaterasu (and due to how slow Itachi is casting it even as an Edo Tensei, it won't hit) will even dent the Sandaime Raikage in Itachi's arsenal.


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## Gibbs (Jul 15, 2013)

Itachi tagged Killer Bee in Tsukyomi, he will tag Sandiame Raikage.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> Itachi tagged Killer Bee in Tsukyomi, he will tag Sandiame Raikage.


...Itachi never tagged Bee in a Tsukuyomi, and if he did Bee'd have broken it. Sandaime Raikage is faster than Bee. Its kind of easy to avoid eye contact with that level of speed the Raikage's displayed.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame is incapable of reacting to A's V1 speed, which is also the Sandaime Raikage's speed.



Kisame reacted to Killer B who also boasts that kind of speed in base form.



> Not that it matters, without Ponta and Sabu to limit Killer Bee, he can comfortably overwhelm Kisame on his own.



B would still need full Bijuu mode to break the water dome. Then it comes down to Daikoudan vs. Bijuudama, which is unknowable until we get some concrete feats for Daikoudan.



> And why shouldn't the Sandaime Raikage be able to avoid Itachi's slower Amaterasu? Hebi Sasuke was able to without a shunshin or any speed even approaching Sandaime Raikage's or Bee's.



Well that's incredibly disingenous (as usual), because Sasuke was hit by Amaterasu while running.

And it's also pretty rash to say that his speed with the Juin doesn't approach B's, given that his base speed was enough to tango with B in a sword fight. There's also no evidence he was or wasn't using Shunshin, so you may as well not even bring that up.



> Tsukuyomi has been unable to be used against High Tiers or Top Tiers since Part I where it was used on a Mid and Low Tier, Kakashi and Genin Sasuke respectively. I don't think its power works as well against a High Tier opponent.



That's a stupid argument; a person's "tier" has nothing to do with their vulnerability to Genjutsu.

The Raikage are both stronger than Hebi Sasuke, but neither of them have the Sharingan or any means of overpowering Tsukuyomi. If they are caught, they are toast. Dead. Kaput.



> Not only that, it IS avoidable. By the time Itachi builds up the chakra for it, he'd be blitzed by A moving at full speed.



If A isn't using his absolute best Shunshin or something pretty close, Itachi would have no trouble evading his strike and following-up with Tsukuyomi; Sasuke landed Chidori, after all.



> It IS wank. Bee is stronger than Itachi due to all the feats he's gotten,



Uh, no. Itachi is stronger than B. Not only that, he's also smarter than B; B got taken out by Kisame because he was an idiot and let his chakra get drained. B was nearly caught off-guard by Edo Itachi's clone feint before KCM Naruto protected him. B failed to take advantage of his chance to ambush Nagato the way Itachi did. Itachi's showings are much better and that's due largely to the fact that he is the more intelligent, careful thinker.



> can blow away Itachi's Susano'o with Bijudama



The Hachibi's Bijuudama is not strong enough to blow away Susano'o; it barely did any damage to the Hachibi itself with a direct hit.



> and counter Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.



Amaterasu destroys B's Bijuu form and there is no evidence that B can counter Tsukuyomi without avoiding eye-contact.



> A is both faster and physically stronger than him,



Which means nothing because Itachi has Susano'o for defense and can clone feint when LOS is blocked.



> and nothing barring Amaterasu (and due to how slow Itachi is casting it even as an Edo Tensei, it won't hit) will even dent the Sandaime Raikage in Itachi's arsenal.



Itachi can cast Amaterasu as fast as Sasuke when he needs to:

was able to

The activation for Amaterasu has been pretty inconsistent over the course of the manga, although the only example you ever seem to care about is the one Kotoamatsukami stopped from happening, which is literally Itachi's worst showing with the Jutsu (for the obvious reason that it was stopped by Kotoamatsukami).


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## Joakim3 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame is incapable of reacting to A's V1 speed, which is also the Sandaime Raikage's speed. And A CAN kill Kisame with one hit, he can even behead Kisame with his raiton manipulation.



Killer B in base is arguably faster than V1 Ei, and Kisame was casually keeping up with him and defending against Ponta & Sabu

Kisame reacted to Killer B's V2 _Lariate_ from 15m, where he fucked up was him underestimating the chakra quantity V2 had... but he still put up a defense in time.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not that it matters, without Ponta and Sabu to limit Killer Bee, he can comfortably overwhelm Kisame on his own.



Thats fine if it's 1 vs. 1, not when Itachi is going to be standing right next to Kisame



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Sandaime Raikage _avoided the FRS twice_, even while blinded, and completely casually. Deva Path had to struggle to dodge it due to his low chakra.



Which would make Tendo's feat more impressive then the formers? Tendo was held down, still impaled the 2 _Kage: Bunshin_ and jumped WAY later then Raikagenaut and thats with Nagato running low on fumes



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And why shouldn't the Sandaime Raikage be able to avoid Itachi's slower Amaterasu? Hebi Sasuke was able to without a shunshin or any speed even approaching Sandaime Raikage's or Bee's.



Because Raikagenaut cannot escape Itachi's sharingan vision. Thats the whole premises of Ei. His _V2 Shunshin_ is so fast the sharingan cannot physially track him, thus by default Itachi/Sasuke can't aim Amaterasu at him

Using the Sasuke fight is a bad example as it was rigged from the start. We saw that Itachi's _Amaterasu_ doesn't have travel time when he used it on Nagato & Cerberus, and he can fire it just a rapidly as his little brother when they fought Kabuto



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Tsukuyomi has been unable to be used against High Tiers or Top Tiers since Part I where it was used on a Mid and Low Tier, Kakashi and Genin Sasuke respectively. I don't think its power works as well against a High Tier opponent. Not only that, it IS avoidable. By the time Itachi builds up the chakra for it, he'd be blitzed by A moving at full speed.



_Tsukuyomai_ hasn't been used because it's a broken move. RM Naruto hyped it to the point that even a perfect jin like he & Killer B would be K/O if hit by it. Itachi argaubly has reactions that would allow him to defend against a _V2 Shunshin_, the man reacted to _Kirin_ usage mid stroke for christ sakes



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It IS wank. Bee is stronger than Itachi due to all the feats he's gotten, can blow away Itachi's Susano'o with Bijudama and counter Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi.



It is not wank..... I can guarantee you that if a Itachi vs. Killer B thread was made former would win the vast majority of times via overwhelming forum consensus, despite the laters impressive feats.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A is both faster and physically stronger than him, and nothing barring Amaterasu (and due to how slow Itachi is casting it even as an Edo Tensei, it won't hit) will even dent the Sandaime Raikage in Itachi's arsenal.



Thats great, Ei still can't get through Itachi's upper levels of _Sasuno'o_, and Raikagenaut is cannon fodder for the likes of Kisame. 

if Itachi gives Kisame the opening to use _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_ which he can seeing he can summon at worst a Lvl2.5 _Sasuno'o_ _instantly_, Ei & his father a foddered and Itachi subsequently deals with Killer B


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## Joakim3 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Third Raikage is too fast enough for eye contact to be made with Itachi, and Kisame...Bee can handle him alone.



So by your logic.... Tendo, SM Naruto's clone & Raikagenaut have speed that rivals Ei's famed _V2 Shunshin_ something that was REQUIRED to outpace a failing eyesight Sasuke's Sharingan pre cog 

SuperSaiyanMan12, your hurting your own argument taking this standpoint


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## GKY (Jul 15, 2013)

Unless Kisame is allowed to transfer chakra to Itachi I don't see it going well for them. Kisame in general is good at fighting people with very high chakra levels, but he seems to struggle with speed demons. If he can transfer enough chakra to Itachi that would allow for amaterasu + tsukuyomi + amaterasu spam they can win. Otherwise, Itachi dies of exhaustion/Raikage blitz punch and Kisame gets beheaded.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Killer B in base is arguably faster than V1 Ei, and Kisame was casually keeping up with him and defending against Ponta & Sabu


Samehada itself was reacting to Killer Bee, not Kisame, and V1 A has better speed feats than Killer Bee in base.


> Kisame reacted to Killer B's V2 _Lariate_ from 15m, where he fucked up was him underestimating the chakra quantity V2 had... but he still put up a defense in time.


Again, Samehada did the reaction, NOT Kisame. And it still wasn't enough to prevent damage.




> Thats fine if it's 1 vs. 1, not when Itachi is going to be standing right next to Kisame


And Itachi has to deal with the Sandaime Raikage and A at the same time.




> Which would make Tendo's feat more impressive then the formers? Tendo was held down, still impaled the 2 _Kage: Bunshin_ and jumped WAY later then Raikagenaut and thats with Nagato running low on fumes


And the Sandaime Raikage reacted to the Futon: Rasenshuriken TWICE without any difficulty, even fresh Deva had trouble doing so and had to be saved by Preta Path. 




> Because Raikagenaut cannot escape Itachi's sharingan vision. Thats the whole premises of Ei. His _V2 Shunshin_ is so fast the sharingan cannot physially track him, thus by default Itachi/Sasuke can't aim Amaterasu at him
> 
> Using the Sasuke fight is a bad example as it was rigged from the start. We saw that Itachi's _Amaterasu_ doesn't have travel time when he used it on Nagato & Cerberus, and he can fire it just a rapidly as his little brother when they fought Kabuto


And the Sandaime Raikage was compared directly to A in speed regardless of Shunshin. He was going toe to toe with someone faster than his son too who was keeping up with A while he was holding back. 

The Sasuke example is still usable since, guess what, ITS THE FEAT HE HAS WHEN HE IS ALIVE, AND THUS AVAILABLE FOR THIS FIGHT. Edo Tensei Itachi had a lot of amps he didn't have in life. And there was a travel time against Nagato and the Cerberus, and as an Edo Tensei he was as fast as Sasuke despite Sasuke being superior with Amaterasu. Edo Tensei feats should NOT count since Itachi doesn't have the weaknesses he had in life.




> _Tsukuyomai_ hasn't been used because it's a broken move. RM Naruto hyped it to the point that even a perfect jin like he & Killer B would be K/O if hit by it. Itachi argaubly has reactions that would allow him to defend against a _V2 Shunshin_, the man reacted to _Kirin_ usage mid stroke for christ sakes


Naruto didn't know that perfect Jins are immune to genjutsu. Nor did he know that Bee had a counter to Amaterasu already. Itachi never, EVER reacted to Kirin, he reacted to Sasuke dropping his hand to initiate the attack. There's a difference dude. And Kirin isn't as fast as A either, or the Sandaime Raikage. 




> It is not wank..... I can guarantee you that if a Itachi vs. Killer B thread was made former would win the vast majority of times via overwhelming forum consensus, despite the laters impressive feats.


Appealing to the majority which are Itachi hyper fans, that really works in debates huh? Killer Bee's shown to be stronger than Itachi several times over this War Arc.




> Thats great, Ei still can't get through Itachi's upper levels of _Sasuno'o_, and Raikagenaut is cannon fodder for the likes of Kisame.


Itachi can't hit A or the Sandaime Raikage in Susano'o anyway, neither can Kisame. And Kisame can't hurt the Sandaime Raikage either. So how is he 'cannon fodder'.


> if Itachi gives Kisame the opening to use _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_ which he can seeing he can summon at worst a Lvl2.5 _Sasuno'o_ _instantly_, Ei & his father a foddered and Itachi subsequently deals with Killer B


And they don't fight like that. And are against two shinobi which are fare faster than they are, and someone with far greater firepower.

...what happened to you Joakim?


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## Joakim3 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Samehada itself was reacting to Killer Bee, not Kisame, and V1 A has better speed feats than Killer Bee in base.
> 
> Again, Samehada did the reaction, NOT Kisame. And it still wasn't enough to prevent damage.



Kisame lifted and put Samehada into a defensive position, i.e he visually saw and anticipated the V2 attack, Unless you think the sword can move & think faster than it's master can

Preventing damage does not correlate to reaction times. Reaction times is simply how fast x character can respond respond to y threat. Not how they defend



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Itachi has to deal with the Sandaime Raikage and A at the same time.



No Itachi has Kisame as back up, to help him fend off the dynamic "Triplets of Manliness"



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the Sandaime Raikage reacted to the Futon: Rasenshuriken TWICE without any difficulty, even fresh Deva had trouble doing so and had to be saved by Preta Path.



Um Jigukudo & Tendo jumped to FRS without difficulty, Gakido intercepted it. Tendo dodged it from FAR closer while exhausted, your point.

Tendo needed Gakido to save it as it was during its _Shinra Tensei_ cool down, and it was just kicked 50m like a ragdoll by SM Naruto and could't get back up from the latters hit



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the Sandaime Raikage was compared directly to A in speed regardless of Shunshin. He was going toe to toe with someone faster than his son too who was keeping up with A while he was holding back.



Super, you are seriously not realizing how large the the difference between base movement speed and _Shunshin_ is...

Yeah when both are not using _Shunshin_ they are of comparable speed i.e Naruto direct comparison of them. When Ei uses his _MAX Shunshin_, then the gap widens by a comical amount 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The Sasuke example is still usable since, guess what, ITS THE FEAT HE HAS WHEN HE IS ALIVE, AND THUS AVAILABLE FOR THIS FIGHT. Edo Tensei Itachi had a lot of amps he didn't have in life. And there was a travel time against Nagato and the Cerberus, and as an Edo Tensei he was as fast as Sasuke despite Sasuke being superior with Amaterasu. Edo Tensei feats should NOT count since Itachi doesn't have the weaknesses he had in life.



It's really not as Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. Obito flat out said that if Itachi wanted to Sasuke would be killed on a whim. Being an Edo doesn't effect technique/shunshin speed or reaction times. It simply gives you unlimited chakra and regen (the former of which is irrelevant with Kisame here)

There was no travel time on Cerberus , Nagato or his Bird



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto didn't know that perfect Jins are immune to genjutsu. Nor did he know that Bee had a counter to Amaterasu already. Itachi never, EVER reacted to Kirin, *he reacted to Sasuke dropping his hand to initiate the attack.* There's a difference dude. And Kirin isn't as fast as A either, or the Sandaime Raikage.



No one is immune to genjutsu other than Sasori... 

_Tsukuyomai_ isn't a regular genjutsu as it happens so rapidly. The only way a perfect Jin could break it is if they shared the same time dilation (i.e. the Biju would also have to be trapped in _Tsukuyomai_ to break the Jin out). The problem is seeing even in the mental Jin/Biju dimension they have there own separate consciousness even thats debatable

Whats B's counter to _Amaterasu_ other than burning? And unlike Sasuke, Itachi knows Killer B can hid in his tentacles and Kisame will find him if he does try to pull a fast one.

In regards to _Kirin_... do you have any unequivocal proof Itachi didn't react to Kirin itself? We saw the Itachi's face light up *after* Sasuke threw his hand down confirming the technique was already in transit when Itachi began forming _Sasuno'o_. Oh, and judging by Itachi's facial expression he wasn't paying Sasuke any mind, but rather dumbfounded on the km wide thunder dragon about to vaporize the mountain he was standing on. 





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Appealing to the majority which are Itachi hyper fans, that really works in debates huh? Killer Bee's shown to be stronger than Itachi several times over this War Arc.



Not really.... 

You can claim wanking when people say Itachi can beat Nagato or Minato 

Saying Itachi (who still is very much top 10 character) can beat Killer B with significant difficulty is arguably hype for Killer B as 99% of the verse wouldn't last a minute with the man, let alone push him to the limit



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi can't hit A or the Sandaime Raikage in Susano'o anyway, neither can Kisame. And Kisame can't hurt the Sandaime Raikage either. So how is he 'cannon fodder'.



Um Itachi was able to catch someone as elusive as SM Kabuto yet he can't catch a V1 Ei or Raikeganuat the latter who has speed comparable to SM Naruto & Tendo realm? Um if Kisame brings out _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_, he can catch whoever he damn well pleases.

Raikage can be drowned, and if he's underwater... yes he becomes fodder in the face of Kisame



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And they don't fight like that. And are against two shinobi which are fare faster than they are, and someone with far greater firepower.
> 
> ...what happened to you Joakim?



Um only Ei is faster than Kisame & Itachi and even then he needs to use his Max V2 _Shunshin_ to be so. Everyone else is ALL on the same speed realm.

What good is Gyuki and all his firepower when he just becomes a massive target _Amaterasu_?

Um nothings happened to me... I just don't like character wanking


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## Meruem (Jul 15, 2013)

If Itachi stalls the three opponents with tricks and defends Kisame, the duo should win because Kisame counters all three of the enemies.


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## Gibbs (Jul 15, 2013)

Keep in mind Edo Itachi, (Still Itachi's true potential as healthy) kept up just fine with KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Speed is not an issue for Itachi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Kisame lifted and put Samehada into a defensive position, i.e he visually saw and anticipated the V2 attack, Unless you think the sword can move & think faster than it's master can


Several times during the fight, Samehada itself moved up faster than Kisame could react due to the chakra signal Bee was giving out. 



> No Itachi has Kisame as back up, to help him fend off the dynamic "Triplets of Manliness"


...again, if Bee handles Kisame, Itachi has to face to Kages at the SAME EXACT TIME. He can't do that.




> Um Jigukudo & Tendo jumped to FRS without difficulty, Gakido intercepted it. Tendo dodged it from FAR closer while exhausted, your point.
> 
> Tendo needed Gakido to save it as it was during its _Shinra Tensei_ cool down, and it was just kicked 50m like a ragdoll by SM Naruto and could't get back up from the latters hit


Yet why couldn't Animal Path react to the FRS? Not to mention again, the Sandaime Raikage did it twice over despite being blinded and the FRS being tossed at him from a bad angle. 




> Super, you are seriously not realizing how large the the difference between base movement speed and _Shunshin_ is...
> 
> Yeah when both are not using _Shunshin_ they are of comparable speed i.e Naruto direct comparison of them. When Ei uses his _MAX Shunshin_, then the gap widens by a comical amount


...you do realize when A and the Sandaime Raikage both use their Shunshins, they were directly compared to each other by Naruto himself right? 




> It's really not as Itachi wasn't trying to kill Sasuke. Obito flat out said that if Itachi wanted to Sasuke would be killed on a whim. Being an Edo doesn't effect technique/shunshin speed or reaction times. It simply gives you unlimited chakra and regen (the former of which is irrelevant with Kisame here)


Itachi had no easy way of not killing Sasuke with Amaterasu until Susano'o came into play, and Obito? He was fucking exaggerating to make Sasuke feel worse about himself during a time most vulnerable. Obito's known to exaggerate and outright lie about things.

In life, Itachi suffers from extremely low stamina and has techniques that drain him massively when used, when as an Edo Tensei he doesn't. And as an Edo Tensei he has automatic recovery and his reflexes don't decrease due to fatigue.


> There was no travel time on Cerberus , Nagato or his Bird


There are the projectile travel times on both. Its hard to see due to the length of the gap.




> No one is immune to genjutsu other than Sasori...


The manga says that Perfect Jins are immune to genjutsu. 


> _Tsukuyomai_ isn't a regular genjutsu as it happens so rapidly. The only way a perfect Jin could break it is if they shared the same time dilation (i.e. the Biju would also have to be trapped in _Tsukuyomai_ to break the Jin out). The problem is seeing even in the mental Jin/Biju dimension they have there own separate consciousness even thats debatable


The manga is on my side, not yours. Tsukuyomi was already broken by Killer Bee in the first place, there is no reason why Itachi's should suffer any difference. Bee already HAS a feat of breaking Tsukuyomi or another high level genjutsu from the Mangekyo Sharingan, so there is no reason to believe he'd fall prey to it other than wanting to make Itachi different since he's Itachi.


> Whats B's counter to _Amaterasu_ other than burning? And unlike Sasuke, Itachi knows Killer B can hid in his tentacles and Kisame will find him if he does try to pull a fast one.


If Bee gets hit, he'll sprout from the non-burning part in V2 form.


> In regards to _Kirin_... do you have any unequivocal proof Itachi didn't react to Kirin itself? We saw the Itachi's face light up *after* Sasuke threw his hand down confirming the technique was already in transit when Itachi began forming _Sasuno'o_. Oh, and judging by Itachi's facial expression he wasn't paying Sasuke any mind, but rather dumbfounded on the km wide thunder dragon about to vaporize the mountain he was standing on.


Sasuke gave Itachi so much fucking time and he was barely paying any attention to what Itachi even did before. If Itachi could REALLY react to lightning, he wouldn't have been bisected by Kabuto. Naruto even in KCM would never touch him. Sasuke's Fuma Shuriken trap would have never touched him. Naruto's Odama Rasengan wouldn't have touched him. Except he has been hit and struck by far slower attacks and intercepted, so we can't call him a lightning timer. 

Itachi never reacted to Kirin itself, he reacted to Sasuke's hand drop. That's the only thing he COULD have reacted to from his feats. 




> Not really....
> 
> You can claim wanking when people say Itachi can beat Nagato or Minato
> 
> Saying Itachi (who still is very much top 10 character) can beat Killer B with significant difficulty is arguably hype for Killer B as 99% of the verse wouldn't last a minute with the man, let alone push him to the limit


Itachi isn't even IN the top ten anymore. Killer Bee HAS been put into the top ten due to all his high level feats during the War Arc and in the Ten-Tails Revival Arc. And Itachi isn't greater than '99% of the verse' either, that's sheer wank. 




> Um Itachi was able to catch someone as elusive as SM Kabuto yet he can't catch a V1 Ei or Raikeganuat the latter who has speed comparable to SM Naruto & Tendo realm? Um if Kisame brings out _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_, he can catch whoever he damn well pleases.


Itachi wasn't able to react to SM Kabuto when he got serious, and SM Kabuto is slower than V1 A and the Sandaime Raikage from feats. 

Kisame only can bring out that technique after consuming an extraordinary amount of chakra. Its not normally available to him. 


> Raikage can be drowned, and if he's underwater... yes he becomes fodder in the face of Kisame


What's stopping the Sandaime Raikage from dropping to the ground or just electrically charging the Water to make it a death trap for Kisame himself? Not to mention that Bee can use Biju Hachimaki to just destroy it.




> Um only Ei is faster than Kisame & Itachi and even then he needs to use his Max V2 _Shunshin_ to be so. Everyone else is ALL on the same speed realm.


No, they aren't. Kisame is the slowest of the group, Itachi has never fought anyone with V1 A and the Sandaime Raikage's level of speed. Hell SM Kabuto when he got serious bisected Itachi before he could react, so how could you say 'everyone is on the same level of speed' when that's false and you know that?


> What good is Gyuki and all his firepower when he just becomes a massive target _Amaterasu_?


Amaterasu NEVER COMES INTO PLAY AGAINST GYUKI, and if it does Bee has fucking counters. 


> Um nothings happened to me... I just don't like character wanking


...you ARE character wanking. You're wanking Itachi of all people and downgrading all the speed feats that the Kumo ninja have here.



The Phoenix King said:


> Keep in mind Edo Itachi, (Still Itachi's true potential as healthy) kept up just fine with KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Speed is not an issue for Itachi.


Edo Itachi isn't the mythical 'healthy Itachi'. Its Itachi plus. And he didn't keep up just fine, KCM Naruto effortlessly countered him and Killer Bee sent him to a retreat. And KCM Naruto never even USED the speed he displayed against A against Itachi since they were TALKING and not fighting all out.


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## Ennoia (Jul 15, 2013)

The Phoenix King said:


> Keep in mind Edo Itachi, (Still Itachi's true potential as healthy) kept up just fine with KCM Naruto and Killer Bee. Speed is not an issue for Itachi.



I wouldnt exactly say he kept up with Naruto because he exchanged a few fists with him and Naruto was trying to talk. I think its kind of clear Naruto wasnt serious.

Also Saiyaman, I wouldnt say Jins are immune because in that split second that B was in the genjutsu he could have been killed against a faster fighter. Considering he got caught in the genjutsu he cannot be immune to it, I think it makes more sense to say he cannot be held in a genjutsu for long.


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## Sans (Jul 15, 2013)

Joakim defending Itachi.



There were two things I wanted to address specifically about Itachi: his Kirin feat and Tsukiyomi.

You can get into the pedantry of when exactly Itachi reacted to it. Opinions range from he had an almost leisurely amount of time with Sasuke's monologue to he blocked lightning mid-strike. However if you go to the page itself, it's not particularly clear. Itachi's Susano'o hasn't formed at any point during Sasuke's speech, but neither do you see anything clear between Sasuke's hand drop and Kirin's strike. So, I just default to Sasuke's statement. Kirin is compared to Amaterasu in speed, and touted as completely unavoidable. While I don't think you can necessarily say that Itachi can play with lightning, his reactions can be compared to Ei's shrouded shunshin. Not in terms of physical speed, as he reacted with a doujutsu, but Itachi's reflexes are impressive.

Again, people have made valid mechanics-wise arguments for and against Tsukiyomi's effectiveness on a perfect jinchuriki. All I can say is Naruto seemed to believe it was a legitimate threat to Kirabi, and that was with knowledge on Kirabi's status. It doesn't seem unreasonable to believe that Itachi's time dilation bypasses the jinchuriki's genjutsu defence.


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## Sans (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan, Itachi is definitely in the top 99% of the Narutoverse.

The Shinobi Alliance mobilised 80,000 ninja, with people like Darui strong enough to be made generals. There is an unknown number of ninja in the minor villages, who have not joined the combined army.

Remember when being a Chuunin meant you had to have leadership skill? While Itachi isn't in the top tier anymore, the vast majority of the universe is fodder to anyone with a name.

In terms of where I would place Itachi, my tier list probably looks something like this.


Juubito
Hashirama
Madara
Kabuto [with Edo Tensei army]
Naruto
Sasuke
Orochimaru
Minato [Not entirely sure where he places]
Nagato
Itachi

People like Tobirama have the potential to be stronger than him and would almost certainly give him a strong fight. I just won't rank them until we get a clearer grasp of what to think.

*Note:* I've already had to edit that tier list three times from simply forgetting people. Take that into account before picking it apart, it got thrown together in two minutes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

I don't see Itachi in the same league as current Naruto, Hashirama, Obito, Madara, Minato, nor Nagato at all. He doesnt' have the feats for it. He doesn't have the screen presence for it. He definitely isn't in the top ten anymore while Killer Bee HAS risen to the top 10 due to all his feats.

Itachi's speed and reactions are also not on the same level as A or the Sandaime Raikage's, nor Minato's. Otherwise, he'd be literally untouchable and unable to react to SM Kabuto's blitz when he became serious, or Naruto's Odama Rasengan blitz. We also have two things: Kirin's speed was exaggerated or Itachi managed to react to the only physical movement he could perceive, Sasuke's drop of a hand. If Sasuke didn't ramble on and on, and just did it and Itachi still managed to create Susano'o in time, you'd have a bigger point too-but he didn't. Itachi had more than enough time to prepare. 

And Bee already has breaking Tsukuyomi/MS Genjutsu under his belt. Itachi's Tsukuyomi shouldn't be any different since in the mental realm with the Biju, time does pass differently.


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## trance (Jul 15, 2013)

It's a good thing Naruto is ending. All this arguing can be put to rest...maybe. Probably? Yea, it won't end.


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## Joakim3 (Jul 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Several times during the fight, Samehada itself moved up faster than Kisame could react due to the chakra signal Bee was giving out.



Not being able to move does not correlate to not being able to react. Minato reacted to _V2 Flash Shunshin_ but is physically incapable of defending himself/dodging (i.e why he needs _Hirashin_)

Kisame was capable of reacting to Killer B's lightning pencil combo & V2 Assualt, with Samehada simply positioning itself to better defend it's master. If Samehada had better reaction feats then Kisame, he shouldn't have been able to kick the damn thing off of Killer B seeing it can bend and avoid attacks



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...again, if Bee handles Kisame, Itachi has to face to Kages at the SAME EXACT TIME. He can't do that.



The Killer B vs. Kisame fight would interfere with Itachi vs. Raikagenaut & Ei as they both have ridiculous AoE ninjutsu. Neither can go 100% without effecting their team mates.

So no the match wont insta degenerate into who nukes the other first



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yet why couldn't Animal Path react to the FRS? Not to mention again, the Sandaime Raikage did it twice over despite being blinded and the FRS being tossed at him from a bad angle.



Chikushodo physically couldn't move out the way in time, thats the paths physical disadvantage, not Nagato's reactionary "failings". 

Like Nagato's faster paths (Tendo, Jigukudo) both Nagato & Raikagenaut have the reflexes and speed to avoid FRS



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...you do realize when A and the Sandaime Raikage both use their Shunshins, they were directly compared to each other by Naruto himself right?



Where was it shown Raikagenaut using his max shunshin? Seeing it has to be charged, something SM Naruto would sense. Tsuande & Ei flat out stated he was the fastest shinobi after Minato (until RM Naruto) end of discussion.

Again by your logic... Tendo & Gakido should be as fast as a max Ei as they were capable of dodging and defending against SM Naruto = Raikagnaut = Ei in terms of speed (again by your logic)



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi had no easy way of not killing Sasuke with Amaterasu until Susano'o came into play, and Obito? He was fucking exaggerating to make Sasuke feel worse about himself during a time most vulnerable. Obito's known to exaggerate and outright lie about things.



Again like Obito said..... If Itachi wanted to just end the fight I he would have spammed _Sasuno'o_ and the match would have ended 30 seconds later.. 

thats a stomp I'd think?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> In life, Itachi suffers from extremely low stamina and has techniques that drain him massively when used, when as an Edo Tensei he doesn't. And as an Edo Tensei he has automatic recovery and his reflexes don't decrease due to fatigue.
> 
> There are the projectile travel times on both. Its hard to see due to the length of the gap.


 
Even while sick Itachi's stamina was greater then a recovering Hebi Sasuke's using CS2, it's not low buy any means. It's just not high like the uber freaks that consist off Naruto's current top tier.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The manga says that Perfect Jins are immune to genjutsu.
> 
> The manga is on my side, not yours. Tsukuyomi was already broken by Killer Bee in the first place, there is no reason why Itachi's should suffer any difference. Bee already HAS a feat of breaking Tsukuyomi or another high level genjutsu from the Mangekyo Sharingan, so there is no reason to believe he'd fall prey to it other than wanting to make Itachi different since he's Itachi.
> 
> If Bee gets hit, he'll sprout from the non-burning part in V2 form.



The fact Killer B was caught means he wasn't immune, he can just break genjutsu.

Danzo flat out called Sasuke's version of Tsukuyomai fodder compared to Itachi. By the time Gyuki would realize Killer B is under genjustu to break it, Killer B would have been tortured for 2 days in Itachi-land and his brain turned to jell-o



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke gave Itachi so much fucking time and he was barely paying any attention to what Itachi even did before. If Itachi could REALLY react to lightning, he wouldn't have been bisected by Kabuto. Naruto even in KCM would never touch him. Sasuke's Fuma Shuriken trap would have never touched him. Naruto's Odama Rasengan wouldn't have touched him. Except he has been hit and struck by far slower attacks and intercepted, so we can't call him a lightning timer.
> 
> Itachi never reacted to Kirin itself, he reacted to Sasuke's hand drop. That's the only thing he COULD have reacted to from his feats.



Difference is... Itachi was prepared for a big attack, he had zero Idea Kabuto was coming from that position and was preparing _Izanami_, not in a defense position. It's called an ambush

Its no different than saying Nagato can't react to FRS because Konohamaru ambushed Jigukudo via a _Kage: Bunshin_ feint or Minato not being able to dodge a piece of wood because he reacted to Ei's V2 Shunshin



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi isn't even IN the top ten anymore. Killer Bee HAS been put into the top ten due to all his high level feats during the War Arc and in the Ten-Tails Revival Arc. And Itachi isn't greater than '99% of the verse' either, that's sheer wank.



Lets see.... top 10 characters.....

Juubito
Hashirama
Madara
BM Naruto
Minato (Edo)
Nagato
SM Kabuto
EMS Sasuke

ughh.... oh yeah Itachi 

Onoki & Killer B round up #10/11, thats top 1% my friend, by any person standings



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi wasn't able to react to SM Kabuto when he got serious, and SM Kabuto is slower than V1 A and the Sandaime Raikage from feats.



Itachi wasn't preparing for an attack, it's called an ambushing. It's no different Nagato having his arms chopped of by Itachi or RM Naruto being kicked in the face by Han

Feat wise SM Kabuto is faster than V1 Ei & Raikagenaut. Sasuke was able to react and dodge V1 Ei, and Sasuke *is slower* than Itachi who SM Kabuto casually held his own with (without sight mind you)



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame only can bring out that technique after consuming an extraordinary amount of chakra. Its not normally available to him.
> 
> What's stopping the Sandaime Raikage from dropping to the ground or just electrically charging the Water to make it a death trap for Kisame himself? Not to mention that Bee can use Biju Hachimaki to just destroy it.



Um Kisame in base hase as much chakra as people like Ei, Raikagenaut or Jins. Nagato himself stated he has more chakra than himself (and we all know how idiotically large his reserves are). A 30% shoten Kisame *filled up an entire valley* to 100m of water on a whim, and you don't think he can use _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_... casually at that?

Discharging _Raiton_ into several sq/km of water is doing nothing when Kisamehada can absorb chakra to the point he reverted a partially transformed Killer B to base in seconds via chakra absorption... thats _Fujutsu Kuyin_ level of absorption

I'd love to see Killer B try to attempt _Biju Hachimaki_ with Itachi inside the dome waiting with _Amaterasu_ (even if he has to camp in _Sasuno'o_ for some time)



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, they aren't. Kisame is the slowest of the group, Itachi has never fought anyone with V1 A and the Sandaime Raikage's level of speed. Hell SM Kabuto when he got serious bisected Itachi before he could react, so how could you say 'everyone is on the same level of speed' when that's false and you know that?



Becuase Itachi didn't defend against Killer B who in base is FASTER & STRONGER then V1 Ei? 

Again SM Kabuto ambushed Itachi, he couldn't react from the position he was in, especially seeing he wasn't prepared for an attack in the first place



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Amaterasu NEVER COMES INTO PLAY AGAINST GYUKI, and if it does Bee has fucking counters.
> 
> ...you ARE character wanking. You're wanking Itachi of all people and downgrading all the speed feats that the Kumo ninja have here.



Again B counters how? Killer B *only escaped* because Sasuke sliced of one of his tentacles and he used that to his advantage. If Itachi just lets Gyuki burn to a crisp nothing is helping him especially with Kisame lurking around

Itachi isn't going to be slicing anything with full knowledge, it will just be Totsuka to the chest and Killer B/Gyuki will be ended 

No I'm not wanking... it's simply called feats & portrayal, and not using A>B>C logic. Itachi & Kisame are one of the most lethal combos despite their lack of ninjustu cohesion. The Kumo while effecting in the style are simply to one dimensional.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Edo Itachi isn't the mythical 'healthy Itachi'. Its Itachi plus. And he didn't keep up just fine, KCM Naruto effortlessly countered him and Killer Bee sent him to a retreat. And KCM Naruto never even USED the speed he displayed against A against Itachi since they were TALKING and not fighting all out.



He did keep up just fine seeing Killer B was barely able to keep up with his _Shunshin_, and was sent back due to Killer B's kenjutsu superiority... not raw speed. 

Yes if RM Naruto wanted to lob Itachi's head off in CqC he could have on a whim, the same way Ei could. But with full knowledge why would either resort to their base techs?


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## Gibbs (Jul 15, 2013)

Keep in mind that those shinobi that were resurrected by Edo Tensei likely knew that their bodies would regenerate any damage they received, therefore  they might not have tried to dodge or avoid attacks.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 15, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Not being able to move does not correlate to not being able to react. Minato reacted to _V2 Flash Shunshin_ but is physically incapable of defending himself/dodging (i.e why he needs _Hirashin_)


The fact he could react to V2 Shunshin means his own shunshin, which is greater than three Hokage put together, would have been able to avoid A. A said Minato was faster than him without even referencing Hiraishin.


> Kisame was capable of reacting to Killer B's lightning pencil combo & V2 Assualt, with Samehada simply positioning itself to better defend it's master. If Samehada had better reaction feats then Kisame, he shouldn't have been able to kick the damn thing off of Killer B seeing it can bend and avoid attacks


Samehada made the most reactions against Killer Bee due to the chakra he was pumping out. Kisame didn't react to the V2 Lariat, Samehada did since it was a bigger meal. 




> The Killer B vs. Kisame fight would interfere with Itachi vs. Raikagenaut & Ei as they both have ridiculous AoE ninjutsu. Neither can go 100% without effecting their team mates.
> 
> So no the match wont insta degenerate into who nukes the other first


Killer Bee has an attack which can neutralize Itachi and Kisame at the same time without having to worry about A and the Third Raikage getting damage: Biju Hachimaki. With it, he can take them both out or make them stunned enough for A and the Third Raikage to finish them off. 




> Chikushodo physically couldn't move out the way in time, thats the paths physical disadvantage, not Nagato's reactionary "failings".
> 
> Like Nagato's faster paths (Tendo, Jigukudo) both Nagato & Raikagenaut have the reflexes and speed to avoid FRS


And the Sandaime Raikage reacted far, far more casually than Nagato's Paths. 




> Where was it shown Raikagenaut using his max shunshin? Seeing it has to be charged, something SM Naruto would sense. Tsuande & Ei flat out stated he was the fastest shinobi after Minato (until RM Naruto) end of discussion.


Given the Sandaime Raikage's chakra levels, he shouldn't be that bar behind A in full speed. And Naruto DIRECTLY COMPARED THE TWO.


> Again by your logic... Tendo & Gakido should be as fast as a max Ei as they were capable of dodging and defending against SM Naruto = Raikagnaut = Ei in terms of speed (again by your logic)


That isn't my logic at all. You're making it up since you don't want to admit even initial speed from A and the Sandaime Raikage would be too much for Itachi.




> Again like Obito said..... If Itachi wanted to just end the fight I he would have spammed _Sasuno'o_ and the match would have ended 30 seconds later..
> 
> thats a stomp I'd think?


Itachi was genuinely surprised by Sasuke's use of techniques and counters to his own. Kirin even surprised him. Itachi only had the advantage with Susano'o and held back killing Sasuke then. Obito exaggerated things entirely.




> Even while sick Itachi's stamina was greater then a recovering Hebi Sasuke's using CS2, it's not low buy any means. It's just not high like the uber freaks that consist off Naruto's current top tier.


Did you miss Sasuke _deliberately_ sacrificing stamina to kill Itachi with his strongest technique, Kirin? Itachi's stamina is SHIT, he has fodder levels of stamina. He was given a 2.5, that's below average. There's a reason why he never went for long fights.

Itachi isn't in the current top tier at ALL. 


> The fact Killer B was caught means he wasn't immune, he can just break genjutsu.
> 
> Danzo flat out called Sasuke's version of Tsukuyomai fodder compared to Itachi. By the time Gyuki would realize Killer B is under genjustu to break it, Killer B would have been tortured for 2 days in Itachi-land and his brain turned to jell-o


Gyuki and Bee's mental realm goes on a different time shift. Gyuki's smart enough to realize Bee's under a genjutsu and break him out. And Tsukuyomi, not 'Tsukuyomai', you've continually mispelled it. 




> Difference is... Itachi was prepared for a big attack, he had zero Idea Kabuto was coming from that position and was preparing _Izanami_, not in a defense position. It's called an ambush
> 
> Its no different than saying Nagato can't react to FRS because Konohamaru ambushed Jigukudo via a _Kage: Bunshin_ feint or Minato not being able to dodge a piece of wood because he reacted to Ei's V2 Shunshin


There is no difference. Itachi was never initiating Izanami in the first place then. He was caught off guard, he was blitzed. Sage Mode Kabuto completely blitzed and bisected him before he could react. 




> Lets see.... top 10 characters.....
> 
> Juubito
> Hashirama
> ...


Itachi is in the top 20, not in the top 10. He's consistently been on the same level as Jiraiya, who is just below the current top 10. Killer Bee's consistently been put IN the top ten during the War Arc and Ten Tails Revival Arc. 

Itachi isn't that strong and never HAS been that strong. He should never even be in the same general area as BM Naruto, Minato, Nagato, Hashirama, Madara, or Jinchuriki Obito/pre-Jinchuriki Obito.


> Itachi wasn't preparing for an attack, it's called an ambushing. It's no different Nagato having his arms chopped of by Itachi or RM Naruto being kicked in the face by Han
> 
> Feat wise SM Kabuto is faster than V1 Ei & Raikagenaut. Sasuke was able to react and dodge V1 Ei, and Sasuke *is slower* than Itachi who SM Kabuto casually held his own with (without sight mind you)


1. Itachi wasn't preparing for anything. He was outright blitzed by SM Kabuto who had became serious.

2. No, he isn't. Not even close. Sasuke and A _charged at each other headlong_ and A never made an attempt to dodge. Sasuke dodged an elbow, so what, it was a linear attack his Sharingan was designed to dodge. And finally, Sasuke shouldn't be slower than Itachi at ALL since they were consistently shown to be on the same level of speed.




> Um Kisame in base hase as much chakra as people like Ei, Raikagenaut or Jins. Nagato himself stated he has more chakra than himself (and we all know how idiotically large his reserves are). A 30% shoten Kisame *filled up an entire valley* to 100m of water on a whim, and you don't think he can use _Suirō Sameodori no Jutsu_... casually at that?


Suiro Sameodori no Jutsu required a vast amount of chakra Kisame already consumed to perform. He couldn't perform it beforehand. 


> Discharging _Raiton_ into several sq/km of water is doing nothing when Kisamehada can absorb chakra to the point he reverted a partially transformed Killer B to base in seconds via chakra absorption... thats _Fujutsu Kuyin_ level of absorption


Kisamehada doesn't automatically absorb chakra at all. And no, he didn't revert Bee into base in seconds. 


> I'd love to see Killer B try to attempt _Biju Hachimaki_ with Itachi inside the dome waiting with _Amaterasu_ (even if he has to camp in _Sasuno'o_ for some time)


Even with Susano'o, Itachi'd be thrown around like a ragdoll by Biju Hachimaki. And Itachi has never used two MS techniques consecutively due to the strain on his body, so don't claim he can.




> Becuase Itachi didn't defend against Killer B who in base is FASTER & STRONGER then V1 Ei?


Base B is STRONGER than V1 A, but not faster. And Itachi 'defended' himself? He didn't even get a blow in, he didn't block anything, he was sent into a full retreat.


> Again SM Kabuto ambushed Itachi, he couldn't react from the position he was in, especially seeing he wasn't prepared for an attack in the first place


SM Kabuto did blitz Itachi. Itachi never was preparing an attack at all given we know how Izanami works. 




> Again B counters how? Killer B *only escaped* because Sasuke sliced of one of his tentacles and he used that to his advantage. If Itachi just lets Gyuki burn to a crisp nothing is helping him especially with Kisame lurking around


Missed Bee splitting off of his big Gyuki form into V2 in the link I showed?


> Itachi isn't going to be slicing anything with full knowledge, it will just be Totsuka to the chest and Killer B/Gyuki will be ended


Bee can escape his Gyuki form without help. 


> No I'm not wanking... it's simply called feats & portrayal, and not using A>B>C logic. Itachi & Kisame are one of the most lethal combos despite their lack of ninjustu cohesion. The Kumo while effecting in the style are simply to one dimensional.


You ARE wanking Itachi. Itachi isn't as fast as V1 A and the Sandaime Raikage, you're claiming he can do all these things since he's Itachi, and ignoring that Kisame's largest techniques need a LOT of chakra he has to steal. 




> He did keep up just fine seeing Killer B was barely able to keep up with his _Shunshin_, and was sent back due to Killer B's kenjutsu superiority... not raw speed.


Where did Killer Bee barely keep up with his Shunshin? He reacted casually to Itachi's warning, showing he already KNEW where Itachi was and was countering.


> Yes if RM Naruto wanted to lob Itachi's head off in CqC he could have on a whim, the same way Ei could. But with full knowledge why would either resort to their base techs?


A's CQC is normally attacking an enemy with full speed and strength. Itachi isn't going to even react to his V1 level, nor will Kisame. Same with the Sandaime Raikage.


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## Sans (Jul 16, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan, do you genuinely believe Ei's base speed would overwhelm Itachi?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 16, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> SuperSaiyaMan, do you genuinely believe Ei's base speed would overwhelm Itachi?


V1 speed, with his Raiton no Yoroi active, yes. The only way Sasuke could counter it was with a head-long charge which increased his speed to the highest level for Chidori. Itachi doesn't have a tech to do that. 

The sheer fact that KCM Naruto was keeping up with V1 A was reacted to in shock by Tsunade, gives me credence to say that even his initial level of speed is out of the ordinary.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> V1 speed, with his Raiton no Yoroi active, yes. The only way Sasuke could counter it was with a head-long charge which increased his speed to the highest level for Chidori. Itachi doesn't have a tech to do that.
> 
> The sheer fact that KCM Naruto was keeping up with V1 A was reacted to in shock by Tsunade, gives me credence to say that even his initial level of speed is out of the ordinary.



Itachi dodged Sasuke's Chidori, which the Raikage failed to do.

Your "credence" is ill-conceived.

Itachi would have no trouble reacting to the Raikage up until he started charging his Shunshin up to Bijuu-level.

And then all Itachi needs is a simple, well-timed clone feint to get the better of him anyway.

Also, both Itachi and Killer B are top 10 material. Their fight was completely even and Itachi almost killed B at the very start of it when he switched out with a clone during his Goukakyuu and attacked from the sky. Itachi is stronger.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And KCM Naruto never even USED the speed he displayed against A against Itachi since they were TALKING and not fighting all out.



Itachi was talking too. So by your logic, he wasn't using his full speed, either. 

Give up that asinine delusion already. Nobody buys it except you, and that's because there's nothing in the manga saying Naruto held back. They fought and they were equals.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jul 16, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And then all Itachi needs is a simple, well-timed clone feint to get the better of him anyway.



I'm not going to argue Itachi being capable of pulling off a Shadow Clone to be used as a feint against Raikage (considering smoke bombs can be used for this very purpose), but to say 'get the better of him' refers to actually tagging him, no? That would require Raikage to drastically slow down from his top-speed levels.

I'm not seeing any sort of resistance if Raikage zooms in at top-speed and nails a clone mistakenly; clones have zero durability. Chances are, once Raikage lands a hit, he'll continue moving at the exact same speed, leaving Itachi's chances of actually solidly connecting with an attack, around the same (in which case, slim to none).


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## Nikushimi (Jul 16, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm not going to argue Itachi being capable of pulling off a Shadow Clone to be used as a feint against Raikage (considering smoke bombs can be used for this very purpose), but to say 'get the better of him' refers to actually tagging him, no? That would require Raikage to drastically slow down from his top-speed levels.
> 
> I'm not seeing any sort of resistance if Raikage zooms in at top-speed and nails a clone mistakenly; clones have zero durability. Chances are, once Raikage lands a hit, he'll continue moving at the exact same speed, leaving Itachi's chances of actually solidly connecting with an attack, around the same (in which case, slim to none).



Clones poof away in a cloud of smoke- or, in Itachi's case, disperse into crows that go everywhere and screech and make a scene.

As soon as that happens, Raikage will be surprised, and that's the instant Itachi needs to aim for.

To say the Raikage simply "keeps going" assumes he has a secondary target- that, or he's just running around at full speed without stopping, which is a good way to deplete even his massive chakra reserves in no time.


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## Sans (Jul 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> V1 speed, with his Raiton no Yoroi active, yes. The only way Sasuke could counter it was with a head-long charge which increased his speed to the highest level for Chidori. Itachi doesn't have a tech to do that.
> 
> The sheer fact that KCM Naruto was keeping up with V1 A was reacted to in shock by Tsunade, gives me credence to say that even his initial level of speed is out of the ordinary.



Itachi kept up with Naruto as well, which shouldn't surprising, considering the the Databook states that Itachi has mastered speed.

Allow me to make the question more specific. Do you believe that if Kishimoto drew Itachi vs Ei, that not only would Ei win, he would do so without needing to utilise his Shunshin?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 18, 2013)

I'm not getting into this debate, since I don't particularly like clustered matches involving multiple characters, but I don't think this is a one sided match for either side. Regardless of whether or not Itachi is in the top ten of _Naruto_, neither feats nor Kishimoto portray him as being so weak that Ei would be able to speed-blitz him, even with _raiton no yoroi_. He may not have the physical movement speed required to be able to personally evade an attack, but his reflexes and reactions are more than enough to be able to deal with him. Kishimoto drew him as being able to keep up with Naruto after he dodged a serious attack from Ei; there's no way the Raikage would be able to simply casually knock Itachi out of the way with one attack.

And this isn't even considering Kisame's presence in the match either. He was at least fast enough to keep pace with Killer Bee for a while, and I don't think he would get completely blitzed either. With Itachi's support, Kisame should have time to begin using ninjutsu. Spitting out that lake would probably be key here, since not only does it give Kisame access to the rest of his repertoire, but it's also a huge momentum stopper which momentarily blocks line of sight, allowing Itachi to set up tricks.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi kept up with Naruto as well, which shouldn't surprising, considering the the Databook states that Itachi has mastered speed.
> 
> Allow me to make the question more specific. Do you believe that if Kishimoto drew Itachi vs Ei, that not only would Ei win, he would do so without needing to utilise his Shunshin?


Itachi kept up with Naruto _when he was holding back and not even using the speed nor his strength_ that KCM gave him so he could *talk* with Itachi. Kishimoto shows Naruto's speed very well, he used none of it against Itachi and Naruto didn't even remark-unlike A, that he was keeping up with him. Hell Naruto was weakened at that point, having split his chakra thirteen ways and wasn't operating at full power too.

Naruto and A were practical equals in sheer speed when they were just using their base levels and actually _trying_. Naruto then surpassed A's maximum.

If Kishimoto drew Itachi vs A, A'd forget all his speed, sit around like an idiot, and Itachi would effortlessly beat him since Itachi's power in the manga is getting people to forget their abilities.

THe whole KCM Naruto vs Itachi fight _was a showing of pure taijutsu skill_ for Naruto since he countered Itachi's speed with ease, and fought him equally in taijutsu. IT was NOT to show 'Itachi is on Naruto's level of speed!' since Naruto never even fricking USED it. 

Compare Naruto vs A:

_"[Kakashi's] the first one that we couldn't kill using those steps..."_
_"[Kakashi's] the first one that we couldn't kill using those steps..."_
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
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See the high level of speed BOTH displayed, and see the shock that Tsunade has in that Naruto is even keeping up with A's initial form. This is a level of speed in the manga that's abnormal and apparently, no one besides Minato or Naruto could counter it or even keep up.

Now, Naruto vs Itachi:

Link removed
Link removed
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Notice the marked difference in the art between the clash. Notice Naruto NOT remarking on Naruto's speed. Notice how when Naruto leaped into the air, we didn't get a little circle around his feet from the energy released. Notice how at NO point Itachi was remarked to be as fast or in the same league.

Now Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage

Link removed
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Notice how Naruto remarked 'I know already, all Raikage are incredibly fast' while directly comparing the Sandaime Raikage to his son.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Itachi kept up with Naruto _when he was holding back and not even using the speed nor his strength_ that KCM gave him so he could *talk* with Itachi.



For the millionth time, Itachi was talking as well. Why do you act like that's a handicap and then conveniently only apply it to Naruto?

Yes, that's a rhetorical question; what I really mean is, you have zero evidence that Naruto was holding back. Your reasoning seems to amount to "Naruto held back because Itachi did well against him," which is completely backwards. You're just coming up with a random hypothesis to explain an observation that no one even said needed explaining in the first place.



> Kishimoto shows Naruto's speed very well, he used none of it against Itachi



You keep saying this, but what do you mean by it? What does Naruto's speed look like, and how is what we saw not it?

It's true that Naruto did not appear to use Shunshin like he did when he fought the Raikage and Kisame, but Itachi didn't appear to use Shunshin, either. No explanation was given for that.



> and Naruto didn't even remark-unlike A, that he was keeping up with him.



Of course not; Naruto had already kept up with A by the time he fought Itachi, and A is faster than Itachi, so it's no surprise Naruto would be able to keep up with Itachi.

Nobody commented on Naruto blitzing Muu, either, and Muu dodged his surprise killing-blow with Rasengan the first time. You're not gonna tell me that attempted ambush was held back, are you?



> Hell Naruto was weakened at that point, having split his chakra thirteen ways and wasn't operating at full power too.



There's also that.

So why you feel the need to keep saying Naruto held back when there isn't a shred of evidence of that is a mystery to everyone. We have perfectly good explanations for why Itachi fought evenly with KCM Naruto:

1. Naruto didn't use Shunshin.

2. Naruto's chakra was divided among 13 Kage Bunshin.



> Naruto and A were practical equals in sheer speed when they were just using their base levels and actually _trying_. Naruto then surpassed A's maximum.



They were also apparently using Shunshin.



> If Kishimoto drew Itachi vs A, A'd forget all his speed, sit around like an idiot, and Itachi would effortlessly beat him since Itachi's power in the manga is getting people to forget their abilities.



So you admit Itachi would win.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> THe whole KCM Naruto vs Itachi fight _was a showing of pure taijutsu skill_ for Naruto since he countered Itachi's speed with ease, and fought him equally in taijutsu. IT was NOT to show 'Itachi is on Naruto's level of speed!' since Naruto never even fricking USED it.



If Naruto was really so much faster than Itachi, then that exchange doesn't tell us anything about Naruto's Taijutsu skill because he could've easily just reacted to Itachi's blows. In fact, it speaks _against_ Naruto's skill that Itachi was able to deflect him several times in spite of (what you claim to be is) their massive speed gap.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too; if you want to treat this as an impressive feat for Naruto, that requires you to acknowledge Itachi as an impressive opponent. If you're going to treat Itachi like Naruto had to stoop to make it a competition, then you're implicitly saying there's no accomplishment in matching him.



> Compare Naruto vs A:
> 
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...



They look almost exactly the same. 

There are a few panels in the Raikage fight where Naruto and he appear to be using Shunshin, but the actual attacks they exchange look almost exactly the same as what we see in the second page of Naruto's exchange with Itachi.

On top of that, you're using manga aesthetics to judge speed? If that's the case, then I guess both Naruto and the Raikage are slower than pre-skip Lee without weights.

You have to understand that that shit is relative; both the quality and the emphasis of the artwork change over time as the author (and his editors) so desire. Naruto's fight with the Raikage was an exhibition of his new speed and a test to help him control it, so of course it was a lot flashier.

That does not prove Naruto had to hold back against Itachi.



> Now Naruto vs Sandaime Raikage
> 
> slower than pre-skip Lee without weights
> slower than pre-skip Lee without weights
> ...



He said they're all incredibly fast, not that the 3rd is as fast as his son.

Itachi is also incredibly fast; the man has a 5 in speed and the Sharingan to boost his reaction time. You continue to overlook facts like this as you focus your attention on the Raikage and what has been shown of them.

And then when Itachi goes and proves he can also keep up with Naruto, you make up excuses why it isn't legitimate- your only reason being that Itachi kept up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 18, 2013)

...the panels look almost exactly the same? Are you KIDDING me? You seriously can't tell the fucking difference Nikushimi just because Itachi is on screen?!


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...the panels look almost exactly the same? Are you KIDDING me? You seriously can't tell the fucking difference Nikushimi just because Itachi is on screen?!



Other than the character poses and some of the angles, they look almost the same:

slower than pre-skip Lee without weights

slower than pre-skip Lee without weights

Even the way Naruto blocks in the bottom panel with Itachi kicking him is almost identical.

And compare the stream of dust kicked up when Naruto stops to the stream of dust kicked up when Itachi stops:

slower than pre-skip Lee without weights

slower than pre-skip Lee without weights

slower than pre-skip Lee without weights

Other than a couple of panels where the ground appears to explode out from under Naruto, both fights look nearly identical. If there's anything I'm missing, feel free to point it out, but I'm pretty sure all you're going to find is a difference in detail, because the perspective of Naruto's engagement with the Raikage was much more tightly-focused in some of the panels.

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Also, Killer B intercepted the Raikage's killing-blow to protect Naruto *and Naruto was surprised*. Do I need to remind you who dodged B's attacks repeatedly? (Hint: It was Itachi.)

B even landed an attack on the Raikage after the Raikage noticed him, something he failed to do to Itachi even from a blindspot.


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## butcher50 (Jul 18, 2013)




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## trance (Jul 18, 2013)

Lol, that's basically what I'm doing.


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## Kazekage94 (Jul 18, 2013)

SOooooo many Itachi fan boys. Umm....Amaterasu won't catch B at 25 meters because B was quick enough to get away from team Taka without them noticing until Karin had to spot him. Kisame will get killed by Ay and Bee at the same time. Then they will proceed to Itachi which can not really do anything. Ay is quicker. Bee could either go in V2 form or Full Tailed Beast form. Now tell me who wins out of Full 8 tails mode B and V2 A? Exactly


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## Nikushimi (Jul 18, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> SOooooo many Itachi fan boys. Umm....Amaterasu won't catch B at 25 meters because B was quick enough to get away from team Taka without them noticing until Karin had to spot him. Kisame will get killed by Ay and Bee at the same time. Then they will proceed to Itachi which can not really do anything. Ay is quicker. Bee could either go in V2 form or Full Tailed Beast form. Now tell me who wins out of Full 8 tails mode B and V2 A? Exactly



It must be nice to have the confidence to post in threads without knowing what they're about.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 19, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> something he failed to do to Itachi even from a blindspot.



I jizz in my pants every time I read that part.

One of the best agility feats so far. Dat reflex, dat speed, dem casual manners(oh Kirabi is trying to blindside me ? I don't give a darn)


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## Stermor (Jul 19, 2013)

easy wya to win.. bee charges a bijuu dama itachi fires amaterasu.. v2 a jumps infront of it with a  v2 shunsin.. 

then a bijuu dama get fired and everybody but bee and maybe raikagernaut will survive.. 

nothing itach or kisame can do about this.. 

end result is bee wins..


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