# ToAru High tiers run a Nasu-verse Gauntlet.



## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Accelerator, Fiamma, Gabriel, FUSE=Kazakiri, Othinus, and Ollerus run a Nasuverse gauntlet.


Scenario 1: They run the Gauntlet separately, one on one. All Characters are in base form.


Scenario 2: They run the Gauntlet separately, one on one. Accelerator in in Blackwing form, while Fiamma has Index's Grimoires.


Scenario 3: They run the Gauntlet separately, one on one. Accelerator in in Angel form, while Fiamma is in La Persona Superiore a Dio form.


Scenario 4: All ToAru characters work together, and are in their strongest forms.


Sub-scenario: These scenarios are attached to each of the above scenarios. 
1.) Astral In Hand Banned
2.) Astral In Hand Allowed


*
The Tier List*
God Tier
ORT
Type Jupiter
Type Saturn
Type Moon/Kischur Zelretch Schweinorg/Ado Edem
Archetype Earth/Type Mars/Type Uranus/Type Neptune/Type Pluto/Type Venus/Six Sisters (Six sister is assuming they're all together, Not enough info about the types )
Primate Murder

Top Tier
Archer Gilgamesh
Launcher Karna
Dust of Osiris
Saber Gawain (Assuming Numeral of the Saint)
TATARI (Assuming in Misaki, Can otherwise vary)
Arcueid 30%/Berserker Arcueid

High Tier
Berserker Heracles (Compatibility issues everywhere)
Rider Alexander the Great
Saber King Arthur
Caster Nursery Rhyme (High stat Jabs + Mindfuck + Existance erasure)
Saber Sigurd
Berserker Lancelot

High-Mid Tier
Lancer Cu Chulainn
Rider Medusa
Archer EMIYA
Caster Tamamo-No Mae (No Goddess modo)
Aozaki Aoko/Powered Ciel/Kishima Kouma
Sakura Matou (Dark)
Nrvnqsr Chaos
Lancer Diarmuid Ua Duibhne
Rider Francis Drake

Mid Tier
Caster Gilles de Rais
Berserker Frankenstein's Monster
Assassin Li Shu Wen
Assassin Sasaki Kojiro
Shirou Emiya (GARm/UBW)/Saber Mordred
Berserker Lu Bu
Caster Medea
Lancer Vlad III the Impaler
Michael Roa Valdamjong
Lorelei Barthomeloi
Ciel/Bazett Fraga McRemitz (level thirty)
Archer Robin Hood
Souichirou Kuzuki (Assuming Castah Reinforcement)


Low-Mid Tier
True Assassin Hassan
Assassin Jack the Ripper
Tohno Shiki
Kotomine (Hero Modo)
Nanaya Shiki

Low Tier
Aozaki Touko (Suitcase cat)
Rin w/Zelretch
Souren Araya (In apartment of doom)
Kotomine Kirei
Assassin Hassan-i Sabbah
Tohno Akiha
Shirou Emiya (Fate)
Satsuki Yumkizuka
Cornelius Alba
Rin Tohsaka
Kiritsugu Emiya
Azaka Kokutou
Gun God

Bottom Tier
Satsuki Kurogiri/Asagami Fujino
Tokiomi Tohsaka
Avenger Angra Mainyu
Irisviel von Einzbern
Illyasviel von Einzbern
Lio Shirazumi
Misaya Ouji
Kariya Matou
Zouken Matou
Mitsuru Kamekura
Byakuya Matou
Aoi Tohsaka

Shit Tier
Shinji Matou


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## KingofNone (Jul 19, 2013)

No Class Gilgamesh from Extra CCC is the strongest incarnation of Gilgamesh. Well technically Origin Gilgamesh is,but that's still apart of No Class Gilgamesh.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

All of them at least clear up to top tier, barring lol God Hand.

Only ones I can really see doing anything against god-tiers are Accelerator, Fiamma, and Gabriel though.


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## Kazu (Jul 19, 2013)

Accelerator: Goes until at least Gilgamesh. Whether gil wins now with accel's new reaction time is debatable
Fiamma gets to at least Zelretch/ado/types tier. Can he deal with ORT transmutation?
And isn't Gabriel a star buster? He solos. 
Can't comment on the rest


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Gabriel is only star level with astral in hand. And each scenario has a sub scenario where it's either banned or unbanned.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Can Gabriel express star-busting DC in the form of an attack using Astro in Hand anyways? I was under the impression that it only worked on celestial bodies and that if Gabriel did something like throwing the planet into the sun it would kill itself as well.


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## Kazu (Jul 19, 2013)

I think Gabriel solos regardless, going by his profile. 
Kazakiri gets to god tiers and stops
Stats and abilities for othinus and ollerus?


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Neither of them really have feats, just powerscaling, since their fights are all either off-screen or curbstomps in their favor. Based on hype, you can probably scale them to Kazakiri. Othinus in particular has probability manipulation which gives a 50% chance of success for her actions, which let her stomp the invisible thing contained in Imagine Breaker.

Actually, if Gabriel were to have star-level DC, what's stopping us from scaling that to Fiamma? It seems odd that La persona superiore a Dio would be threatened by an archangel, and an incomplete one at that.


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## Crimson King (Jul 19, 2013)

stops at ORT


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Neither of them really have feats, just powerscaling, since their fights are all either off-screen or curbstomps in their favor.


It was said that both of them have complete mastery of all 103,000 Original Grimiores.



> Based on hype, you can probably scale them to Kazakiri. Othinus in particular has probability manipulation which gives a 50% chance of success for her actions, which let her stomp the invisible thing contained in Imagine Breaker.



IIRC, Ollerus implied that he was a match for base fiamma.




> Actually, if Gabriel were to have star-level DC, what's stopping us from scaling that to Fiamma? It seems odd that La persona superiore a Dio would be threatened by an archangel, and an incomplete one at that.



Gabriel is Multi-star level, being able to move all stars in the sky outisde of the human eye's view.

Ive brought that point up for Fiamma in the past, but people didn't seem to agree. Then again, that was at the high point of ToAru hate in the OBD. Technically speaking, LPSaD Fiamma should be far stronger than Gabriel via powerscaling.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Othinus said:


> It was said that both of them have complete mastery of all 103,000 Original Grimiores.


Gonna need a quote for this.

The matching base Fiamma thing is kind of moot anyways, since the whole point of the Holy Right is that it matches its opponent in strength.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Give me a few minutes and I'll find it.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

New Testament Volume 5 said:
			
		

> A Magic God.
> 
> That term did not refer to a god of demons.[1] It referred to someone who had mastered magic to the extent that they had taken one step into the domain of god.
> 
> ...



Found it      .


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## RedSurvivor (Jul 19, 2013)

Edit: Nevermind, Othinus beat me to it.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Fair enough.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

On another note, would ORT's transmutation be able to get past Saint Georges Sanctuary?


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Depends. I've looked through Volume 1 multiple times, and haven't found many references as to how Saint George's Sanctuary works other than the fact that it apparently distorts space somehow to prevent Index from being approached.

But this seems contradicted by Index's footing being disrupted by Kanzaki and Touma even being able to get close to her.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 19, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> I think Gabriel solos regardless, going by his profile.
> Kazakiri gets to god tiers and stops
> Stats and abilities for othinus and ollerus?



I think Gabriel's durability is just around country level from tanking the Star of Bethlehem falling on top of it. I'm not sure what gives Gabriel planet level durability, I've seen that question being asked a few times but with no answer. Also, would Astral in Hand work with Types/Fairies/Reality Marble users? Considering those create their own worlds/space where there aren't any celestial bodies to move.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> I think Gabriel's durability is just around country level from tanking the Star of Bethlehem falling on top of it. I'm not sure what gives Gabriel planet level durability, I've seen that question being asked a few times but with no answer. Also, would Astral in Hand work with Types/Fairies/Reality Marble users? Considering those create their own worlds/space where there aren't any celestial bodies to move.


Gabriel doesn't have planet level durability, anyone suggesting that is delusional.

Actually, why does the wiki have that listed as Gabriel's durability to begin with?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Depends. I've looked through Volume 1 multiple times, and haven't found many references as to how Saint George's Sanctuary works other than the fact that it apparently distorts space somehow to prevent Index from being approached.
> 
> But this seems contradicted by Index's footing being disrupted by Kanzaki and Touma even being able to get close to her.



Maybe it only creates a barrier in front of the user and just isn't omnidirectional? It would explain why Kanzaki could attack the floor mats to make Index loose her footing.

*Spoiler*: _The quote in question, just so people know what were talking about._ 






			
				Volume 1 said:
			
		

> an anti-intruder, local weapon to expose the composition of the spell.” Index tilted her head like a corpse puppet. “The magic expected to be most effective on the specific intruder has been formulated. Proceeding to activate the special magic, St. George’s Sanctuary, to destroy the intruder.”
> 
> With a tremendous noise, the two magic circles in Index’s eyes grew simultaneously. Two magic circles over two meters across were now positioned in front of Index’s face. Each one was fixed in place with its center over one of her eyes and the magic circles would move through the air when she slightly moved her head.
> 
> ...








theleechqueen said:


> I think Gabriel's durability is just around country level from tanking the Star of Bethlehem falling on top of it. I'm not sure what gives Gabriel planet level durability, I've seen that question being asked a few times but with no answer. Also, would Astral in Hand work with Types/Fairies/Reality Marble users? Considering those create their own worlds/space where there aren't any celestial bodies to move.



Your right. Though Via powerscaling to angel accelerator, she has continent level durability. But not planet level or even close to that. 

And no, if there isn't any stars or a planet to use, it won't work.



Regicide said:


> Gabriel doesn't have planet level durability, anyone suggesting that is delusional.
> 
> Actually, why does the wiki have that listed as Gabriel's durability to begin with?



I don't know. That profile hasn't been updated in _years_ either way.


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## Kazu (Jul 19, 2013)

Othinus said:


> On another note, would ORT's transmutation be able to get past Saint Georges Sanctuary?



Fuck if I know? Crystal valley just makes everything in the vicinity into, well crystal.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Othinus said:


> I don't know. That profile hasn't been updated in _years_ either way.


Really?

It has your recent mach 73.5 calc listed for Gabriel's speed.


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## Qinglong (Jul 19, 2013)

He's talking about the oldwiki profile. The newwiki profile someone updated the speed but the durability figure was carried over from the oldwiki, and hasn't changed in years. Oboro (dunno who that is) is the one who changed it.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

If the account that changed it was oboro.....It was me. In like.......2009 or 2010. I don't know where the hell I got that durability figure from. Someone should change that.


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## Qinglong (Jul 19, 2013)

I think Ampchu did the speed change, try asking them


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Someone should change that.


I would, if I had an account for the wiki.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

So would I. Just because it's completely wrong. Though I haven't made an account for the new wiki either.


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## Kazu (Jul 19, 2013)

In which case, Zelretch, Ado and Archetype earth and above could probably beat gabriel.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

I kind of wish Gabriel had better feats to live up to the hype Archangels have, but I guess it can't be helped when it's been nerfed in all of its incarnations. 

I suppose if we had planet-busting Archangels there wouldn't be a setting left for Kamachi to write.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Well, they can destroy planets/stars. They just haven't shown the feats necessary to give them the durability needed to survive star level destruction, or even planet level for that matter.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Why do we talk about Astro in Hand as if it's a thing then?

Wouldn't Gabriel be killed as well if it tried to use it against its opponent?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

To use it, Gabriel would have to fly into space, and chuck a star at the planet, or stop the planets rotation from a distance.

And even saints can survive in space, so gabriel should have no problem doing so.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

Would it be able to travel several hundred kilometers like that in the heat of combat?

Assuming we're putting it up against a reasonably threatening opponent, mind you.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 19, 2013)

Depends on if the opponent can fly and if the opponent has similar reaction and movement speed.

That, and Gabriel doesn't actually die when "killed". Even when it was hit by IB and it's body dissappeared, it was only sent back to heaven.

So even if it did decide to roast itself along with the planet, it would be self BFR vs an actual death. In which case, I'd say Gabriel would win since it's technically still "alive".

Though correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

IB is kind of a weird case though, since it's more just returning things to their natural state, rather than actually negating them. Sending an angel back to Heaven after it's been cast down to Earth seems like it would fit that criteria.

Plus, Kanzaki was worried about killing Misha, albeit Yuisen is in itself sort of a weird spell.


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## RedSurvivor (Jul 19, 2013)

Regicide said:


> IB is kind of a weird case though, since it's more just returning things to their natural state, rather than actually negating them. Sending an angel back to Heaven after it's been cast down to Earth seems like it would fit that criteria.
> 
> Plus, Kanzaki was worried about killing Misha, albeit Yuisen is in itself sort of a weird spell.



She was also worried that IB might kill Misha if Touma managed to land a hit, so she may just not know what she's talking about in this case.


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## Regicide (Jul 19, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> She was also worried that IB might kill Misha if Touma managed to land a hit, so she may just not know what she's talking about in this case.


None of them exactly knew how IB worked in this case though.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

You're not including the God+ Tier?
Kiara, BB, Meltlilith, Moon Cell(?), Origin Servants, Kyuubi Tamamo.


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

This thread so far has been...shocking on a number of levels, frankly 

Anyway, something worth keeping in mind is that Ollerus and likely Othinus as well constantly have that Odin's Throne thing constantly active as a defense.

And what that does is, according to Legend (which is what Kamachi designs Magic abilities around in the first place), is that it sits in a higher dimension that's untouchable.

Also considering how Kamachi loves to throw around "loldimensions" in terms of teleportation abilities and Curtana, chances are that Ollerus and Othinus are shielded by technically existing in a separate dimension.

Which could be considered similar to the functionality of Avalon, only without it's attack reflecting properties. So...any Nasuverse character capable of overpowering Avalon should be able to stop those two, at least.

Also, I kind of doubt Gabriel can handle the Types. Astral in Hand simply isnt going to be enough for it to avoid being speedblitzed.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Also, I kind of doubt Gabriel can handle the Types. Astral in Hand simply isnt going to be enough for it to avoid being speedblitzed.


Last I checked, the Types were mach 100+.

Not enough to speedblitz if we scale Gabriel to mach 73.5+.


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## Kazu (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> You're not including the God+ Tier?
> Kiara, BB, Meltlilith, Moon Cell(?), Origin Servants, Kyuubi Tamamo.



I guess going by the description of Angra Mainyu/CCC, it could be considered soulfuck ()

BB's CCC could beat most anyone, whether or not she could win is debatable. 

Having Moon cell as an opponent is like having akasha as one. 

What are origin servants again?

And we don't know enough about Tamamo to say anything really. 



Regicide said:


> Last I checked, the Types were mach 100+.
> 
> Not enough to speedblitz if we scale Gabriel to mach 73.5+.



They're Mach 175. Not enough to blitz, but enough to get quite a bit of initiative.


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Last I checked, the Types were mach 100+.
> 
> Not enough to speedblitz if we scale Gabriel to mach 73.5+.



Mach 73.5+ is only their ability to process information. A speedblitz is still a possibility


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Mach 73.5+ is only their ability to process information. A speedblitz is still a possibility


If it applies to their reaction speed, can't we scale that to shit like short distance movement/CQC?


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

You could argue that?

But its still not enough to overcome the speed gap inherent to that matchup. A large speed advantage + better DC feats + hax simply dont give Gabriel much of a chance


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> You could argue that?
> 
> But its still not enough to overcome the speed gap inherent to that matchup. A large speed advantage + better DC feats + hax simply dont give Gabriel much of a chance


Wasn't particularly arguing Gabriel defeating god-tiers so much as Gabriel getting speedblitzed anyways.


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

Im just going with it for the sake of argument, I dont actually buy it.


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## RedSurvivor (Jul 20, 2013)

Is One above God Fiamma irrelevant here? He's a planetbuster and his power doesn't really care how fast his opponent is. He should at least clear up to ORT I think.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

I think it's pretty much a given that he gets to god-tiers.


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## leknaat345 (Jul 20, 2013)

I think St. George's Sanctuary will protect the user from the effects of ORT's Crystal Valley, if we go with the explanation as to how it works in the  I encountered (though it doesn't explain the floor scenario).

A question regarding Othinus in Scenario 4, which states that the character is in their strongest form, does this mean that Othinus' Majin ability's liability is removed, thus making everything she does 100% effective? Even then, Othinus has a 50% chance in defeating every character in every scenario in Nasuverse if she uses her Majin power, scenarios 1-3. She also has access to grimoire knowledge to back her up. 

As for Fiamma, he can breeze through high tiers and below in all scenarios, some difficulty in the top tiers in scenarios 2 & 3 (not sure if Fiamma's auto target will function to Unified Language in scenario 1, but he did resist the Pope's mind and soul attack, so its still a win). Can't say much with the God tiers.

As for base Accelerator, would his vector shield protect him from Kojiro Sasaki's Tsubame Gaeshi? Or from any dimensional attacks? Still, he still beats everyone easily in and below High Tier in scenarios 1-3, some difficulty with the Top tiers in scenarios 1-3 (I remembered that his fight with Gilgamesh Gae Bolg is contested, though in his profile, it says he won). Can't say much with the God tiers, but how will Accelerator defend against Crystal Valley? Will his vector shield even work on simultaneous reality warping and matter manipulation with a side-effect of driving the person looking at it insane?

A question regarding Fuse=KAZAKIRI. Since she's a mass of AIM that is basically deadly to mages and negates magic power, how would the magic based Nasu characters be affected? This also goes to Angelator in Scenario 3, whose body contains highly concentrated AIM field.

Toaru question: Gabriel has mach 70+ speed? It's profile that I read stated only mach 20+.
Nasu question:I'm surprised that some Extra CCC servants are considered above mainstream grail servants, since I read somewhere before that they are considered weaker from the grail servants.
Nasu question: Isn't TATARI basically unbeatable because it is just a phenomenon? And even if his body is destroyed, it will be just return to being a phenomenon?

P.S. Sorry for my lack of knowledge in Nasuverse, despite my interest in it. My only source of information about it is from the wiki anyways, and I often read that its not very reliable.


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## RedSurvivor (Jul 20, 2013)

Removing Othinus's limitation would turn her into a literal omnipotent, which wouldn't be good. 

Tsubame Gaeshi does tell reality to fuck off by attacking from three directions at once, but it's still physical, so Accel should be fine. Base accel can defend from teleporation, which is dimensional in Toaru, but I think a previous thread stated he can't defend from high tier dimension cutting (like Kuwabara). Angel Accel should be fine though, with his "Imaginary Vectors" hax. 

Both Toaru magicians and Nasu magicians use life force as their power, so it should act the same in this case. 

The mach 70 calc came from a recent thread involving Accelerator and Kakine's insane calculation speed.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> Removing Othinus's limitation would turn her into a literal omnipotent, which wouldn't be good.


Not really.

Even then, we'd just scale her the strongest person she's defeated with her ability. So, unquantifiably higher than planet-level.


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

RedSurvivor said:


> Removing Othinus's limitation would turn her into a literal* omnipotent*, which wouldn't be good.



Stop right there


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## RedSurvivor (Jul 20, 2013)

Ah, true. Still probably enough to win this gauntlet.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

I don't think it's nearly enough to defeat the CCC top tier, but they're not included so they should be able to clear.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Stop right there



She'd be a high tier probability manipulator, but not omnipotent. It'd still probably be enough to clear the gauntlet, but she hasn't even gained 100% probability manipulation yet, so it's not usable for the match.

She'd probably be something like Umineko's Bernkastel if she succeeded, But with less destructive capacity and better probability manipulation (true 100% for Othinus vs 99.999999999999999% or something like that for Bern).

Mind you, this is all just speculation, since again, it hasn't happened yet.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 20, 2013)

leknaat345 said:


> As for Fiamma, he can breeze through high tiers and below in all scenarios, some difficulty in the top tiers in scenarios 2 & 3 (not sure if Fiamma's auto target will function to Unified Language in scenario 1, *but he did resist the Pope's mind and soul attack, so its still a win*). Can't say much with the God tiers.



The Unified Language is on the same tier as the MEoDP. It works on the astral plane and anything linked to Akasha can't resist it because it'll be the same as denying one's own existence. It's not on the same scale as the Pope's mind and soul attack. Though it probably doesn't matter, since Kurokiri is a regular human in speed.



> As for base Accelerator, would his vector shield protect him from Kojiro Sasaki's Tsubame Gaeshi? Or from any dimensional attacks? Still, he still beats everyone easily in and below High Tier in scenarios 1-3, some difficulty with the Top tiers in scenarios 1-3 (I remembered that his fight with Gilgamesh Gae Bolg is contested, though in his profile, it says he won).



Accelerator isn't getting past 30% Arc in the top tiers though, angel form or not. He can't take a Moon Drop.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

That moon was not that big. It didn't look like a real moon. I'm not the first to bring this up either.

Pretty sure those "moons" are actually mountain sized if I remember the old debates correctly.


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

That was from the manga.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

The manga is secondary canon isn't it?


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

It is, but pretty bad artistic error. When she tells Zepia to look up in Melty Blood they see the Crimson Moon.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> Accelerator isn't getting past 30% Arc in the top tiers though, angel form or not. He can't take a Moon Drop.


I was under the impression that given a quick draw, he could nuke Arc before lolmoondrop happened.

She's only mach 30, right?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 20, 2013)

It should be fine to powerscale her reactions to mach 45 (or is it mach 90 now for Servant reaction speed?). Since she is on par with high-tier Servants in base stats.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> It is, but pretty bad artistic error. When she tells Zepia to look up in Melty Blood they see the Crimson Moon.



Depending on the distance the crimson moon was at, it could actually look moon sized, so kind of irrelevant. Not to mention, that Iirc, the main canon doesn't have a scalable/calcable picture, does it? Meaning the only thing you really have to go by, is the picture in the secondary canon.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> It should be fine to powerscale her reactions to mach 45 (or is it mach 90 now for Servant reaction speed?). Since she is on par with high-tier Servants in base stats.



Pretty sure Mach 90 is still being contested for the servants. Going by the last thread thread this was discussed in.

Mach 45 is usable though if that's referring to the 3 times speed boost for armorless saber.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Accelerator can nuke Arcueid all he wants, but I don't see what he can do to put her down.



Othinus said:


> Depending on the distance the crimson moon was at, it could actually look moon sized, so kind of irrelevant. Not to mention, that Iirc, the main canon doesn't have a scalable/calcable picture, does it? Meaning the only thing you really have to go by, is the picture in the secondary canon.



Does that mean that I can do my Mach 100+ Lancer calculation using the Zero anime of a scene that didn't give enough details in the novel?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Can Arc take a continent level blast?


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Can Arc take a continent level blast?


Pretty sure that would fuck a 30% Arc's shit, albeit whether or not he could actually keep her dead for any extended period of time is debatable.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Can Arc take a continent level blast?



Tsukihime says that a body isn't necessary and that she can recreate one without trouble. She had trouble with Shiki because he sliced her existence apart.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Does that mean that I can do my Mach 100+ Lancer calculation using the Zero anime of a scene that wasn't described in the novel?




As long as it's secondary canon and doesn't contradict first degree canon. But I don't think that the Zero anime is canon in any form, is it?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Tsukihime says that a body isn't necessary and that she can recreate one without trouble. She had trouble with Shiki because he sliced her existence apart.



Does she have any feats to back up her regenerating from a continent level blast? Otherwise I'd call NLF on that.

iirc, Ciel was said to be able to match weakened Arc at one point, and her attacks are not anywhere near as powerful as Accelerators.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Does she have any feats to back up her regenerating from a continent level blast? Otherwise I'd call NLF on that.
> 
> iirc, Ciel was said to be able to match weakened Arc at one point, and her attacks are not anywhere near as powerful as Accelerators.



Does it matter if she can survive as a disembodied soul?


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Can she attack someone as a disembodied soul? If not then it doesn't really make a difference.

Also, my point about Ciel still stands.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Can she attack someone as a disembodied soul? If not then it doesn't really make a difference.



She can recreate her body as a soul. That's the point.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

And how long does recreating her body take?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> Depending on the distance the crimson moon was at, it could actually look moon sized, so kind of irrelevant. Not to mention, that Iirc, the main canon doesn't have a scalable/calcable picture, does it? Meaning the only thing you really have to go by, is the picture in the secondary canon.



In the game Arc recreated the world and the Crimson Moon from 1000 years into the future so that Wallachia would stop being a phenomenon and turn back to the Dead Apostle Zepia. So unless the Nasuverse moon is mountain sized or it got smaller after 1000 years it should be the size of the real moon.



Othinus said:


> As long as it's secondary canon and doesn't contradict first degree canon. But I don't think that the Zero anime is canon in any form, is it?



In that case we can dismiss the Melty Blood manga as canon. Considering it had things that never happened in the game, like Tatari P. Ciel vs Akiha, Ciel vs Nrvnqsr along with Arc having to rely on the powers of her Archetype Earth personality because she couldn't hit Nanaya with a physical attack. Plus the moon being mountain sized is inconsistent with all informs about the moon in Fate the Fact.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> She can recreate her body as a soul. That's the point.


The issue here would be how long it would take her to actually create a new body.


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## JustThisOne (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> And how long does recreating her body take?



about a day


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

A day for being hit with MeoDP. Unknown otherwise.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Othinus said:


> And how long does recreating her body take?



Kagetsu Tohya's Let's Play is down and I don't remember the details, but I know she recreates her body around the Earth as means of transportation, a sort-of teleportation.

MeoDP was a bit of a special case, as she had to stitch up her soul.


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

"Well, actually, it wouldn't be a big deal if you had just killed me, but the way you killed me was something I've never seen before. I couldn't heal the wounds, so I had no choice but to remake my body parts. That's why it took so much energy to revive---"

As for tanking something, that shouldn't be used in the same sentence as Arcueid. The most you can do is powerscale or infer from statements.


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Kagetsu Tohya's Let's Play is down and I don't remember the details, but I know she recreates her body around the Earth as means of transportation, a sort-of teleportation.


Doesn't really give us a timeframe.


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

Regicide said:


> Doesn't really give us a timeframe.



I know.
Do you think we can powerscale from Roa at the end of the Arcueid arc?
Or not, as they used different methods.
I might need to search for a bit.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> I know.
> Do you think we can powerscale from Roa at the end of the Arcueid arc?



Roa had to regen from his ankles. He didn't regen from nothing.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 20, 2013)

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem the speed difference is large enough that Accelerator can hit her with a continent-level attack before she is able to do anything. What is Accelerator's soulfuck resistance anyway?


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

theleechqueen said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem the speed difference is large enough that Accelerator can hit her with a continent-level attack before she is able to do anything.


As far as I know, Arc's reaction speed is mach 45, as opposed to Accel's mach 73.5.

He can output continent-level DC via his earth stomps, which are omnidirectional and he only needs to think to use.


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## JustThisOne (Jul 20, 2013)

Regicide said:


> As far as I know, Arc's reaction speed is mach 45, as opposed to Accel's mach 73.5.
> 
> He can output continent-level DC via his earth stomps, which are omnidirectional and he only needs to think to use.



But that is only 30%, right?


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Jul 20, 2013)

Is that from the building he threw after absorbing five minutes of the Earth's rotation energy, right?


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

Accel has no soulfuck resistance feats

Additionally, full strength Arc is at TYPE-MOONS level of power. So shed stomp him.


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## TehChron (Jul 20, 2013)

Greed.

Mountain sized moons

Really


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Greed.
> 
> Mountain sized moons
> 
> Really



It's what I remember reading in old threads. Unless things have changed since then.


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 20, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Accel has no soulfuck resistance feats



This is true. Can Arc soulfuck people?

If she can, could she do it before Accel Earthstomps?


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## Sygurgh (Jul 20, 2013)

If we suppose that the characters go for strong attacks from the get go, can Accelerator "kill" Arcueid before she fully stops the Earth's rotation or throw a continent at him?


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## Regicide (Jul 20, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> If we suppose that the characters go for strong attacks from the get go, can Accelerator kill Arcueid before she fully stops the Earth's rotation or throw his potion of the continent on the other side of the globe?


Is that something 30% Arc is capable of doing? I always thought that we only gave that to Archetype Earth and shit.

Who stomps Accel without question.


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## Qinglong (Jul 20, 2013)

None of that applies to 30%

That was Ciel's statement on Archetype-Earth, which she didn't refute.

EDIT: the playing pingpong with continents bit, think she did the stopping rotation during the fight.


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## Kazu (Jul 20, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> None of that applies to 30%
> 
> That was Ciel's statement on Archetype-Earth, which she didn't refute.
> 
> EDIT: the playing pingpong with continents bit, think she did the stopping rotation during the fight.



I would think that if she can use an attack that uses one zettaton of energy, she can do something that uses 1/1000th of that energy would be pretty casual.


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## Kazu (Jul 21, 2013)

Sygurgh said:


> Does that mean that I can do my Mach 100+ Lancer calculation using the Zero anime of a scene that didn't give enough details in the novel?



I haven't seen this, I think. Link?


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## Xelloss (Jul 21, 2013)

The only thing I can add, its that Kakine regen is pretty similar on his "immortality and regen" without touch the subject of Soul as he is science based, and he still fears accelerator wings, he can regen that damage but it take him a good while, so i guess Angel Accelerator can take on 30% Arc.

But 100% Arc most likely beat him


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## ~Greed~ (Jul 21, 2013)

Your right. Kakine did say that Accelerators wings would essentially one-shot him.


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## Kazu (Jul 22, 2013)

The continental attack was from taking rotational energy, yes?
Wouldn't that require charge time, since you can't take five min worth of rotational energy in less than, well, five minutes?


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## TehChron (Jul 22, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> The continental attack was from taking rotational energy, yes?
> Wouldn't that require charge time, since you can't take five min worth of rotational energy in less than, well, five minutes?



It takes a second or two, not minutes.


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## Kazu (Jul 22, 2013)

???
How does he take five minutes worth of energy...
In one or two seconds?


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## TehChron (Jul 22, 2013)

Robs the equivalent of energy that the earth generates by rotating for five minutes.


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