# Dracula (Castlevania) vs Beerus (DBS)



## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

In the left corner we have Dracula, the Lord of Darkness.



In the right corner we have Beerus, the God of Destruction.



Let's get ready to rumble.

Stipulations

- Dracula has been fully resurrected, and is in a foul mood. He has no intentions of holding back.

- Beerus isn't holding back, and just lost his last meal to Dracula. Naturally, he is furious.

Scenarios

Scenario 1) Dracula appears before Beerus, and they fight to the death.

Scenario 2) Dracula replaces Beerus as the God of Destruction. Starting from the beginning of Dragonball Super.

As for music.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

Remind me where Dracula's sitting at in terms of speed and hax, Gwyn.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> Remind me where Dracula's sitting at in terms of speed and hax, Gwyn.



At least quadrillions of times the speed of light due to Chaos's galaxy frisbees, likely higher. Just need someone to calculate it.

Soul steal, time-stop, resistance to time-stop, can summon tortured spirits from the Abyss and those spirits infused with his demonic power become demons subservient to him. He can create universes, and exist as a disembodied spirit that can possess people.

When he possesses Maxim Kischine he creates a dimension with another version of his castle, and was fusing that dimension with reality in order to combine his castles. The only thing stopping him from completing the process was Maxim Kischine's spirit.

So, you might be able to argue multiversal in destructive capacity. Particularly, considering the fact he manages that at his weakest.

He is more powerful than Galamoth who could create the Time Reaper. Which itself was going to destroy the entire time-line.

I don't think time-stop would work against Beerus considering Hit but soul steal might.

Also, Dracula can create mirror dimensions in his castle and the Kyoma Demon could travel between them. Which means Dracula likely can too. Since the Kyoma Demon got its demonic power from Dracula.

Then there is transmutation, and transforming people into stone.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 3


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Yes but beerus can hakai people out of existence.And in case of zamasu it was from across all timelines.Never mind that it did not work.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Yes but beerus can hakai people out of existence.And in case of zamasu it was from across all timelines.Never mind that it did not work.



Is this sarcasm?

The "never mind that it did not work" makes it sound like sarcasm.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Is this sarcasm?
> 
> The "never mind that it did not work" makes it sound like sarcasm.


It's just that the Zamasu that they wanted to get rid of survived via DBS immortality so while Beerus did do that it "didn't work".

The ability also works on intangible ghosts if we go by that Arale episode.


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## Bad Wolf (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Is this sarcasm?
> 
> The "never mind that it did not work" makes it sound like sarcasm.


Even because



So basically it was just beerus saying stuff but he just doesn't know how time works


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Is this sarcasm?
> 
> The "never mind that it did not work" makes it sound like sarcasm.


No one was immortal due to the dragonballs which granded him immortality and the other had a ring which made him acasual.Sorry if that was wrong phrasing.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Bad Wolf said:


> Even because
> 
> 
> 
> So basically it was just beerus saying stuff but he just doesn't know how time works



So basically, Beerus can't actually do it across different time-lines? Since that seems like it explicitly failed to do as described. Since a Zamasu in another time-line was born.

Destroying space-time isn't strange, we see Death cleave through it and the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time when it was going to destroy the entire era.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> At least quadrillions of times the speed of light due to Chaos's galaxy frisbees, likely higher. Just need someone to calculate it.
> 
> Soul steal, time-stop, resistance to time-stop, can summon tortured spirits from the Abyss and those spirits infused with his demonic power become demons subservient to him. He can create universes, and exist as a disembodied spirit that can possess people.
> 
> ...



Isn't this spite thread ? Dracula have much advantage compare to Beerus . How can the hell this is fair match ?


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> At least quadrillions of times the speed of light due to Chaos's galaxy frisbees, likely higher. Just need someone to calculate it.
> 
> Soul steal, time-stop, resistance to time-stop, can summon tortured spirits from the Abyss and those spirits infused with his demonic power become demons subservient to him. He can create universes, and exist as a disembodied spirit that can possess people.
> 
> ...



I'm willing to give it to Dracula if his speed really is in the quadrillions seeing as that's where DBS is also sitting not to mention DB as a whole still has no defenses against soul steal.

Does Dracula have any defenses to soul destruction? If not, then that's the only chance Beerus has since Dracula can survive as a spirit and all. If he does, then Beerus is doing all of jack and shit.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> Isn't this spite thread ? Dracula have much advantage compare to Beerus . How can the hell this is fair match ?



I am not sure how it's a spite thread.

Beerus and Champa were going to destroy universe 6 and 7 in their fight so Beerus should be close to multiversal as well. Mind you that's probably a combined effort though. The last I checked they were quadrillions of times the speed of light too.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> I'm willing to give it to Dracula if his speed really is in the quadrillions seeing as that's where DBS is also sitting not to mention DB as a whole still has no defenses against soul steal.



Should be since the galaxies Chaos was throwing were flying all over the place. As you have already probably seen. If not I can post the video again if you want to look at it. Also, there is Dracula's power of dominance which lets him have access to all of the abilities of those people whose souls he has.



> Does Dracula have any defenses to soul destruction? If not, then that's the only chance Beerus has since Dracula can survive as a spirit and all. If he does, then Beerus is doing all of jack and shit.



He gets routinely beat on by the Vampire Killer which can explicitly destroy spirits, and even hurt abstracts like Death. Who, as confirmed by Lament of Innocence, is literally Death and has governance over it.

It is never able to permanently destroy him, and despite getting beaten many times by people who can destroy spirits he always resurrects. The only time he didn't was when Julius Belmont sealed his castle away, and even then he reincarnated as Soma Cruz.


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> So basically, Beerus can't actually do it across different time-lines? Since that seems like it explicitly failed to do as described. Since a Zamasu in another time-line was born.
> 
> Destroying space-time isn't strange, we see Death cleave through it and the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time when it was going to destroy the entire era.


Nah even vegeta and goku blacm can destoy time and goku broke through hit's dimension.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> I am not sure how it's a spite thread.
> 
> Beerus and Champa were going to destroy universe 6 and 7 in their fight so Beerus should be close to multiversal as well. Mind you that's probably a combined effort though. The last I checked they were quadrillions of times the speed of light too.



I mean in term of Hax . How can the hell this is fair match not to mention you said this Dracula person have quantillion speed and can create universe .

At least put this Dracula person againts such character like Sailor Moon , Dark Schneider , Z from Tenchi Muyo because that match more Hax vs Hax  .


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Are you for real?
Also soma cruz.The move beerus does outright erases people from existence.He erased a ghost and his soul didnt go to heaven or hell.He just ceased to exist.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Are you for real?
> Also soma cruz.The move beerus does outright erases people from existence.He erased a ghost and his soul didnt go to heaven or hell.He just ceased to exist.



And ? You put a someone have one hax ability againts a someone have numerous hax ability .

Get real .


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> I mean in term of Hax . How can the hell this is fair match not to mention you said this Dracula person have quantillion speed and can create universe .



_Quadrillion._

Which is within the scale of things we see from Dragonball Super. I am not sure how you are getting the idea that this match is one sided right now. The fact you are bringing up examples that are worse than this are making me scratch my head as we speak.



> At least put this Dracula person againts such character like Sailor Moon , Dark Schneider , Z from Tenchi Muyo because that match more Hax vs Hax  .



These would be even worse, and be actual spite matches. I am not sure how you are getting the idea any of these matches would be better than this.  The first two be complete mismatches, and the third wouldn't be that much better either.



Toaa said:


> Nah even vegeta and goku blacm can destoy time and goku broke through hit's dimension.



Yes, and? I am not sure how that makes Beerus's hakai more h4x or whatever. Dracula is far above Death, and the Time Reaper. Just like Beerus is far above Goku and Vegeta.



Toaa said:


> Also soma cruz.The move beerus does outright erases people from existence.He erased a ghost and his soul didnt go to heaven or hell.He just ceased to exist.



The Vampire Killer does the same against the numerous spirits it destroys, and we never see them again. Only Dracula survives getting routinely destroyed by it and resurrects. The only successful way to stop that was by sealing his castle but his spirit was still intact, and reincarnated as Soma Cruz.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

This is why i call this spite thread .

Dracula win this match because he have much more hax than Beerus .

This match more Hax vs Power not Hax vs Hax .


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> _Quadrillion._
> 
> Which is within the scale of things we see from Dragonball Super. I am not sure how you are getting the idea that this match is one sided right now. The fact you are bringing up examples that are worse than this are making me scratch my head as we speak.
> 
> ...


But the point is once beerus does that dracula will be erased.How will he regenerate from that?Or im not sure how he can come back.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

@Soma Cruz 

Meh, don't mind saint rider, Gwyn.

Guy isn't the sharpest tool in the shed.

Well, how long does it take Dracula to revive every time he's defeated?

You said fight to the death in the OP so I just want to know if killing Dracula for a set amount of time before he inevitably returns counts as a win here.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

This i why i told you this is spite thread .


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> This is why i call this spite thread .



A spite thread would be a complete mismatch in one sides favor. The only real advantage Dracula has here is the more versatile power-set. Otherwise, they're pretty close. 



> Dracula win this match because he have much more hax than Beerus .



Yes, and the fact of how hard he is to destroy. Other than that they're pretty close.



> This match more Hax vs Power not Hax vs Hax .



Which doesn't make it a spite thread. The fact the characters in question have to rely on their unique abilities instead of simple brute force is proof of that fact.



Toaa said:


> But the point is once beerus does that dracula will be erased.How will he regenerate from that?Or im not sure how he can come back.



We have already been over how Beerus's hakai can't erase people across different time-lines, and the most impressive thing we see it do is completely destroy Zamasu. Who has no explicit resistance to having his soul destroyed. Then that other spirit that was destroyed which also had no particular resistance.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> A spite thread would be a complete mismatch in one sides favor. The only real advantage Dracula has here is the more versatile power-set. Otherwise, they're pretty close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Then tell me just how much Beerus advantage compare to Dracula ?


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> A spite thread would be a complete mismatch in one sides favor. The only real advantage Dracula has here is the more versatile power-set. Otherwise, they're pretty close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Point is its not that he just destroys the soul?When he did that to zamasu he outright erased him.he didnt just take his soul and left the body intact.Also that ability shouls also scale to his god ki like his energy negation.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> We have already been over how Beerus's hakai can't erase people across different time-lines, and the most impressive thing we see it do is completely destroy Zamasu. Who has no explicit resistance to having his soul destroyed. Then that other spirit that was destroyed which also had no particular resistance.


To be fair, the main reason Zamasu wasn't destroyed in the future is because he was wearing a Time Ring along with hijacking Goku's body.

But yeah, you're spot on about no soul destruction defenses in Dragon Ball.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> @Soma Cruz
> 
> Meh, don't mind saint rider, Gwyn.
> 
> ...



Usually, a hundred years but his spirit is always around. As seen in Castlevania: Simon's Quest. Dracula curses Simon, and it forces him to help facilitate Dracula's resurrection earlier than normal. This is after Simon defeats Dracula the first time.

So, while he can't resurrect right away his spirit is always around.



> You said fight to the death in the OP so I just want to know if killing Dracula for a set amount of time before he inevitably returns counts as a win here.



Beerus has to destroy Dracula's spirit to truly destroy him. Otherwise, Dracula invariably ends up possessing him or something. As for Beerus, and his hakai can it be resisted?

Since space, and time destruction attacks are not an instant win in Castlevania. Death can't instantly destroy any of the Belmonts who beat him, and the Time Reaper can be beaten by pretty much anyone in Castlevania: Judgement.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Usually, a hundred years but his spirit is always around. As seen in Castlevania: Simon's Quest. Dracula curses Simon, and it forces him to help facilitate Dracula's resurrection earlier than normal. This is after Simon defeats Dracula the first time.
> 
> So, while he can't resurrect right away his spirit is always around.
> 
> ...



If you have sufficient defenses against soul and matter destruction, you should be able to resist Beerus' Hakai.

And yeah, thought as much. So Dracula gets a new host in the form of U7's God of Destruction.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> If you have sufficient defenses against soul and matter destruction, you should be able to resist Beerus' Hakai.



We know transmutation should be useless against Dracula since it's useless against Soma Cruz, along with most space and time manipulation. Galamoth can easily erase the moon away from existence, after warping its appearance with some space and time manipulation. Then replace it as a giant floating head in outer space. Who is routinely beaten by Dracula, Alucard, and Kid Dracula. 



> And yeah, thought as much. So Dracula gets a new host in the form of U7's God of Destruction.



That, or Dracula rips his soul out first. A direct fight would probably have them as evenly matched until they start using their unique abilities. In which case it seems Dracula has the advantage.


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> That, or Dracula rips his soul out first. A direct fight would probably have them as evenly matched until they start using their unique abilities. In which case it seems Dracula has the advantage.



Dragon Ball has never fought well against a hax'd verse with similar levels of speed and DC so this is par for the course, really.

Seems like this is Dracula's victory in Scenario 1.

Scenario 2 has him eliminating everyone except, possibly, Zen'O. That match is a quickdraw.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

Where are those quadrillions of c's for Dracula coming from, exactly? If that feat is not even calced, much less accepted, then it shouldn't be used here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Angels should still beat him.Though a better match would be gigyas zamasu.


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

This is why this match is called spite match


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Where are those quadrillions of c's for Dracula coming from, exactly? If that feat is not even calced, much less accepted, then it shouldn't be used here.



Specifically from Chaos's galaxy throwing feat in the Chaotic Realm which is an extension of itself. 


3:16+

As seen there, and you can see it do that throughout the Chaotic Realm with certain rooms each containing a different universe. Since each room in the castle seems to house a different dimension in the Chaotic Realm.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Feb 20, 2017)



Reactions: Agree 1


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## tivanenk (Feb 20, 2017)

Good lord, when did Castlevania misinformation begin? Firstly, quadrillions of c from what exactly? You mean the background in the Chaos Realm? Well, firstly, you would have to prove that those are actual stars and galaxies. Castlevania has always suffered from the 'cool background' syndrome where the developers would slap on a background that has nothing to do with the actual game (check the final boss room from Harmony of Dissonance, for instance). How do I know they're not real galaxies? Well, how about the fact that they stretch and warp in and out of the background, which would not happen had they been actual galaxies. And moreover, you would have actually needed to prove Chaos was actively flinging them if they were real, and not that they were moving by themselves in this realm.

Also, the Galamoth and Time Reaper thing was explained in Judgment as well. He was going to destroy space-time by erasing the past by changing the events of history, not because he was going to physically destroy it. Also, Castlevania Judgment is widely considered non-canon by Konami and even Iga himself, so it does not really take precedence over any canon feat. Also, you would have to be insane to believe Richter and Maria are both universe level.

I can cover the other nonsense that has been perpetuated about Castlevania if someone wants to, but why bother since I only need to debunk this to prove that Beerus annihilates Dracula.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

So I assume those galaxies are moving at something approximating quadrillions of c's, and that's why you're giving Dracula that speed?

There's a couple of problems, if that's the case.
Most importantly, how does this scale to Dracula in any way? It's his power that causes those shenanigans to happen, granted, but it's not him who does it and nor does anyone react to it. 
E.g. using TK to throw something at the speed of light doesn't give you light speed reactions. It's only if the guy you're fighting reacts to your throw that you can start scaling it. 

The absolute most you can get out of this visual is a DC feat, and even that only if you assume that a place that is literally called the 'chaotic realm' adheres to the rules of physics


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Should be since the galaxies Chaos was throwing were flying all over the place. As you have already probably seen. If not I can post the video again if you want to look at it. Also, there is Dracula's power of dominance which lets him have access to all of the abilities of those people whose souls he has.
> 
> He gets routinely beat on by the Vampire Killer which can explicitly destroy spirits, and even hurt abstracts like Death. Who, as confirmed by Lament of Innocence, is literally Death and has governance over it.
> 
> It is never able to permanently destroy him, and despite getting beaten many times by people who can destroy spirits he always resurrects. The only time he didn't was when Julius Belmont sealed his castle away, and even then he reincarnated as Soma Cruz.



How long does it normally take him to resurrect from having his soul destroyed? If it takes many years (or even just days/weeks or months) rather than a few minutes that could be considered as a BFR.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How long does it normally take him to resurrect from having his soul destroyed? If it take many years rather than a few minutes that could be considered as a BFR.


Once every 100 years is the most consistent figure the games have given. And that includes instances where Dracula didn't resurrect on his own but was brought back to life by his followers in some elaborate process. 

For the purposes of a matchup, if he gets destroyed once, it should be his loss

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So I assume those galaxies are moving at something approximating quadrillions of c's, and that's why you're giving Dracula that speed?
> 
> There's a couple of problems, if that's the case.
> Most importantly, how does this scale to Dracula in any way? It's his power that causes those shenanigans to happen, granted, but it's not him who does it and nor does anyone react to it.



Soma Cruz is faster than 99% of the projectiles thrown by Chaos in their fight, and no matter how fast it throws them he can dodge them. In some cases they are molasses compared to him.



> E.g. using TK to throw something at the speed of light doesn't give you light speed reactions. It's only if the guy you're fighting reacts to your throw that you can start scaling it.



Soma Cruz specifically fights and defeats Chaos, as it throws things at him which are molasses compared to him. Both Julius Belmont, and Soma Cruz have no problem dodging lasers. 

Paranoia from Dawn of Sorrow uses lasers or a close approximation to them, and they reflect off of mirrors just like light would. Which Soma Cruz can easily dodge.


The sky fish, a non-boss monster, can move in a time-stop through sheer speed just like Son Goku can. Unlike other more powerful demons it doesn't have a natural defense against time-stop.


Galamoth crashes into the moon, disperses it, and grows to the size of the moon. Kid Dracula shoots a fireball at FTL speeds and harms him with it:




> The absolute most you can get out of this visual is a DC feat, and even that only if you assume that a place that is literally called the 'chaotic realm' adheres to the rules of physics



So now, you're trying to say that since physics might not adhere to things here it can't even be used in order to determine destructive capacity? Yeah right, that's not going to fly here. That's like saying because someone can move a universe that they can't use that in combat because it doesn't make sense. 



tivanenk said:


> Good lord, when did Castlevania misinformation begin?



It's not misinformation. It's what people have been missing over the years, and the many things that have been overlooked. 



> Firstly, quadrillions of c from what exactly? You mean the background in the Chaos Realm? Well, firstly, you would have to prove that those are actual stars and galaxies.



They are explicitly stars, and galaxies and look the part. 



> Castlevania has always suffered from the 'cool background' syndrome where the developers would slap on a background that has nothing to do with the actual game (check the final boss room from Harmony of Dissonance, for instance).



In Harmony of Dissonance the other castle was explicitly in another dimension that Dracula was fusing with reality. That's not a good example to use as it supports my argument and not yours. 

Those cool backgrounds explicitly show other dimensions, and universes filled to the brim with stars. 


0:38+

Such as when Dracula creates a dimension with a super-massive black hole that eats a bunch of stars, and then destroys that dimension before replacing it with another.


0:20+

In Harmony of Dissonance where Dracula creates another dimension with celestial bodies.

As well as in Castlevania: Bloodlines where we see Dracula create a dimension with numerous stars.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

> How do I know they're not real galaxies?



As Aeon refers to these dimensions as alternate universes.


Anyone in Castlevania: Judgement can make them.




> Well, how about the fact that they stretch and warp in and out of the background, which would not happen had they been actual galaxies.



Chaos is a massively powerful reality warper, and we are seeing things from Soma Cruz's perspective in the Chaotic Realm. Who explicitly has extrasensory abilities. They warp, and stretch because they are being thrown so ridiculously fast.



> And moreover, you would have actually needed to prove Chaos was actively flinging them if they were real, and not that they were moving by themselves in this realm.



It is called the _Chaotic Realm_, and ceases to exist without Chaos once Soma Cruz defeats it. Proving that the Chaotic Realm can not exist with Chaos. The destruction of which Soma Cruz survives.



> Also, the Galamoth and Time Reaper thing was explained in Judgment as well.



Yes, and it's explained that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time itself along with the entire time-line.





> He was going to destroy space-time by erasing the past by changing the events of history,



Nope, this is the misinformation you are looking for that you are now spreading.

It is made very explicit that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the time-line itself, and as a side-effect Dracula would be destroyed.

It is made even more explicit in Dracula's playthrough.




> not because he was going to physically destroy it.



It is specifically stated that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the time-line itself.



> Also, Castlevania Judgment is widely considered non-canon by Konami and even Iga himself,



Citation needed, as there are no statements regarding the canon of Castlevania: Judgement and it produced and developed by Konami.



> so it does not really take precedence over any canon feat.



It is produced, and developed by Konami. It is canon, and never stated to not be canon.



> Also, you would have to be insane to believe Richter and Maria are both universe level.



They are, and you are going to have to deal with that fact whether you like it or not. That is how powerful they are now.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How long does it normally take him to resurrect from having his soul destroyed? If it takes many years (or even just days/weeks or months) rather than a few minutes that could be considered as a BFR.



Dracula never has gotten his soul destroyed, and it has always been able to withstand an onslaught from the Vampire Killer. That's why I brought up the fact he is resistant to it. As seen in Castlevania II: Simon's Quest, we see right after his body is destroyed that he continues to exist as a spirit.

So, as for purposes of this thread no it is not because Dracula has explicit resistance against getting his soul destroyed.

Then finally things such as destroying space, and time are not strange in Castlevania and Dracula would have resistance to that as well. So, there's the question of whether Beerus's hakai could successfully destroy his body ignoring any durability.



SSBMonado said:


> Once every 100 years is the most consistent figure the games have given. And that includes instances where Dracula didn't resurrect on his own but was brought back to life by his followers in some elaborate process.
> 
> For the purposes of a matchup, if he gets destroyed once, it should be his loss



Firstly, do not speak for me.

Secondly, Dracula's spirit has never been successfully destroyed even when Dracula's connection to Chaos was severed by sealing his castle. Instead he ended up reincarnated as Soma Cruz. As I already noted he would have resistant against reality warping, and space/time manipulation.

Dracula does not need to be resurrected to be powerful enough to create universes, and fuse them together with other dimensions that already exist. As a disembodied spirit he is still a threat. We see this during Harmony of Dissonance.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

That whole galaxy business is just way too vague. Are the projectiles chaos uses in combat as fast as the galaxies? You can't just assume so because again, making those things move is a DC feat, not a speed feat. You can throw a baseball at a pretty decent speed, but you yourself can't move anywhere near that fast. The same logic applies to this feat. It would only be unquestionable if something interacted with those galaxies, which isn't the case from what I can see.

And again, even that only applies if you assumed that an obviously fucked up place called "chaotic realm" runs on normal physics



Soma Cruz said:


> Firstly, do not speak for me.


I wasn't. I was answering a question.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Dracula never has gotten his soul destroyed, and it has always been able to withstand an onslaught from the Vampire Killer. That's why I brought up the fact he is resistant to it. As seen in Castlevania II: Simon's Quest, we see right after his body is destroyed that he continues to exist as a spirit.
> 
> So, as for purposes of this thread no it is not because Dracula has explicit resistance against getting his soul destroyed.
> 
> ...



Resistance isn't the same as complete immunity. After his body is destroyed in his disembodied spirit form would Dracula really be able to tank multiple uses of hakai in succession? And if that doesn't work Beerus could seal Dracula inside an object like he sealed elder kai into the Z sword.


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## tivanenk (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> It's not misinformation. It's what people have been missing over the years, and the many things that have been overlooked.



They have been overlooked because of a reason: they're not real feats.



Soma Cruz said:


> They are explicitly stars, and galaxies and look the part.



How so? They're white dots moving extremely quickly. You would need to prove that they are real stars and galaxies by either having them look and act exactly the part, which they do not (the galaxies aren't even shaped like real ones), or have characters refer to them as such. It passes neither criterion.



Soma Cruz said:


> In Harmony of Dissonance the other castle was explicitly in another dimension that Dracula was fusing with reality. That's not a good example to use as it supports my argument and not yours.
> 
> Those cool backgrounds explicitly show other dimensions, and universes filled to the brim with stars.



Do you even know what I'm referring to? I'm referring to the fact that you fight on clouds with a wavy background, even though you just not half a moment ago took a stone elevator into a stone square to fight Dracula. The only time when there are separate dimensions are when characters refer to them as such, like when Juste goes into another castle, or when Soma travels to Chaos' dimension. 

By the way, that same background appears in the real castle, so good luck disproving that.



Soma Cruz said:


> 0:38+
> 
> Such as when Dracula creates a dimension with a super-massive black hole that eats a bunch of stars, and then destroys that dimension before replacing it with another.



What black hole? That looks absolutely nothing like a black hole nor even a region of outer space for that matter. It's a dark-red misty dimension with a dark spiral background resembling nothing in the real world. Where's the accretion disk? Where's the event horizon? And if there are stars, where are they? The little white specks floating in the background? The dimension doesn't even look like space in the first place. Argument completely moot and has no foundation.



Soma Cruz said:


> 0:20+
> 
> In Harmony of Dissonance where Dracula creates another dimension with celestial bodies.
> 
> As well as in Castlevania: Bloodlines where we see Dracula create a dimension with numerous stars.



Again, bunch of dots in the background, you have exactly 0 sources that says those things are stars, just a subjective interpretation.

And Harmony of Dissonance? You would have to prove that Maxim created the moon and such. He was only ever stated to have created another castle, and Castlevania's control doesn't extend over celestial bodies, nor has it ever stated to be so. It's just a moon located outside the castle that you can see from the distance.



Soma Cruz said:


> As Aeon refers to these dimensions as alternate universes.



Literally nothing to prove anything about the castle Castlevania itself. He's only referring to timelines. Nor does it touch upon any point that I have made.



Soma Cruz said:


> Anyone in Castlevania: Judgement can make them.



...W-what? Where do you see the characters creating universes ANYWHERE in that video?



Soma Cruz said:


> Chaos is massively powerful reality warper, and we are seeing things from Soma Cruz's perspective in the Chaotic Realm. Who explicitly has extrasensory abilities. They warp, and stretch because they are being thrown so ridiculously fast.



Now that's something that you would have to prove. You're essentially going in a circle argument. "Chaos is a reality warper because he can fling galaxies like that and he can fling galaxies in and out of the background because he's a reality warper" You can't supplement evidence from one another. That's called circular reasoning.

Also, galaxies don't warp or stretch if they are thrown fast. It doesn't follow any physical law in our world. And if you argue reality warping, again, you need to prove that.



Soma Cruz said:


> It is called the _Chaotic Realm_, and ceases to exist without Chaos once Soma Cruz defeats it. Proving that the Chaotic Realm can not exist with Chaos. The destruction of which Soma Cruz survives.



And? That only proves that he created the dimension itself and that it cannot last without him. Nothing to prove any points I brought up.



Soma Cruz said:


> Yes, and it's explained that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time itself along with the entire time-line.



Uh, no. He was explicitly sent to change the past by destroying Dracula himself, not to physically destroy the timeline.



Soma Cruz said:


> Nope, this is the misinformation you are looking for that you are now spreading.
> 
> It is made very explicit that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the time-line itself, and as a side-effect Dracula would be destroyed.
> 
> It is made even more explicit in Dracula's playthrough.



Again, "era" only refers to the era where Dracula was the Dark Lord. It would cease to exist if he was destroyed. He was, once again, explicitly sent to destroy Dracula. Never does it mention a side-effect.



Soma Cruz said:


> It is specifically stated that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the time-line itself.



Once more, look above.



Soma Cruz said:


> Citation needed, as there are no statements regarding the canon of Castlevania: Judgement and it produced and developed by Konami.



How is it not? Characters like Cornell appear in the game and Konami threw out Legacy of Darkness as canon in their 2007 timeline. This means that Judgment is also non-canon as well. Also, it completely contradicts Aria of Sorrow where Dracula had already been destroyed by then.



Soma Cruz said:


> It is produced, and developed by Konami. It is canon, and never stated to not be canon.



Legacy of Darkness was specifically stated to be non-canon by Konami. Cornell still appears in Judgement. Thinking Judgement is canon is like thinking Harmony of Despair is canon, which it is not.



Soma Cruz said:


> They are, and you are going to have to deal with that fact whether you like it or not. That is how powerful they are now.



And you'll have to deal with the fact that your evidence needs to be put under heavy scrutiny before it can be accepted.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> That whole galaxy business is just way too vague. Are the projectiles chaos uses in combat as fast as the galaxies?



Should be as they are thrown Chaos using its telekinesis, and guided by it towards Soma Cruz. Unless it was purposely trying to lose to him which it wasn't. You could try to argue that but then I would laugh at you.



> You can't just assume so because again, making those things move is a DC feat, not a speed feat. You can throw a baseball at a pretty decent speed, but you yourself can't move anywhere near that fast. The same logic applies to this feat.



No, it doesn't because as I noted Soma Cruz can dodge its attacks. Anyone of note can dodge Kid Dracula's fireballs which are explicitly faster than light. Julius Belmont, and Soma Cruz have no problem dodging lasers. There are sky fish that can do what Son Goku has when he broke out of Hit's time-stop with sheer speed.



> It would only be unquestionable if something interacted with those galaxies, which isn't the case from what I can see.



No it's unquestionable as it is unless you are trying to argue that Chaos was purposely trying to lose against Soma Cruz, and purposely making its thrown projectiles slower when we see it can throw galaxies around like they're frisbees.

Which as I noted would mean I am going to laugh at you.



> And again, even that only applies if you assumed that an obviously fucked up place called "chaotic realm" runs on normal physics



Okay then, Beerus isn't a universe destroyer because we never see him actually destroy a universe and he is not quadrillions of times the speed of light because it was Whis flying him around. Heck, since the amount of power they display doesn't adhere to the laws of physics it can't represent their destructive capacity either.

After all, there is no way to quantify how much power it would take to destroy space and time.

I can play this game too.

So, relent unless you want to turn this thread into a contest in order to see who can downplay the other side the most.



> I wasn't. I was answering a question.



You were trying to dictate the rules of that match-up that I made.

You were speaking for me. When I already answered NightmareCinema.

As seen here.



Soma Cruz said:


> We know transmutation should be useless against Dracula since it's useless against Soma Cruz, along with most space and time manipulation. Galamoth can easily erase the moon away from existence, after warping its appearance with some space and time manipulation. Then replace it as a giant floating head in outer space. Who is routinely beaten by Dracula, Alucard, and Kid Dracula.
> 
> 
> 
> That, or Dracula rips his soul out first. A direct fight would probably have them as evenly matched until they start using their unique abilities. In which case it seems Dracula has the advantage.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Should be as they are thrown Chaos using its telekinesis, and guided by it towards Soma Cruz. Unless it was purposely trying to lose to him which it wasn't. You could try to argue that but then I would laugh at you.


Except I'm not arguing that chaos was going easy at all, nor do I have to.
For the nth time now: Using whatever ability you have to move an object at X speed is NOT a speed feat. Chaos put Y amount of energy into that dimension, which caused the galaxies to move at that speed. Hence, it is a DC feat. Does chaos specifically steer the galaxies? Does anyone else ever interact with those galaxies while they are moving at that speed? Unless you can comfortably answer one of those questions positively, it's not a valid feat.

So what about chaos' attacks in the boss fight? Well what ABOUT them? For all we know it could have taken Chaos an age and a half to accelerate those galaxies, so doing the same in a boss fight would have been completely impractical. Maybe chaos isn't doing it consciously at all, but passively, in a fashion he can't replicate in combat.
So again, it's way too vague to be a valid feat. 

Then again, my opinion counts for precisely fuck-all in the OBD and I have no delusions to the contrary. So just make a thread in the calc section, have the damn thing calced and see if it gets accepted. 



> No, it doesn't because as I noted Soma Cruz can dodge its attacks. Anyone of note can dodge Kid Dracula's fireballs which are explicitly faster than light. Julius Belmont, and Soma Cruz have no problem dodging lasers. There are sky fish that can do what Son Goku has when he broke out of Hit's time-stop with sheer speed.


First of all, I'm not doubting that Soma and other characters are FTL. That's completely meaningless to this thread.
Secondly, both Goku breaking through time stop and that sky fish thing in Castlevania would fall under time stop resistance. Nothing more and nothing less. That's once again not something you can scale with.



> Okay then, Beerus isn't a universe destroyer because we never see him actually destroy a universe and he is not quadrillions of times the speed of light because it was Whis flying him around. Heck, since the amount of power they display doesn't adhere to the laws of physics it can't represent their destructive capacity either.


Apples and oranges, mate. Fiction ignoring physics for the purpose of spectacle isn't the same as fiction ignoring physics due to plot. The game itself gives a damn good reason to doubt that physics are being followed in that dimension, which is something DBS does not do.



> You were trying to dictate the rules of that match-up that I made.


Again, I was answering a question and giving my opinion on how a rule should be applied so the match wouldn't be unfair or biased. Again, Dracula takes upwards of 100 years to resurrect and can't do a damn thing while he's dead, meaning that a single kill should be more than enough to give his opponent the win.


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## Blocky (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> This is why this match is called spite match


Can you stop repeating yourself.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Winner 1


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

Blocky said:


> Can you stop repeating yourself.


You are asking for too much.

Soma cruz how are we sure those are actual celestial bodies.?With all games exist this problem due to low graphics.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> They have been overlooked because of a reason: they're not real feats.



They have been dismissed because of dumb cunts like yourself who have not been able to comprehend the significance of them.



> How so? They're white dots moving extremely quickly.



They are stars, and galaxies in the back drop of one of the universes in the Chaotic Realm.





> You would need to prove that they are real stars and galaxies by either having them look and act exactly the part, which they do not (the galaxies aren't even shaped like real ones),



Which they do, and you are simply being pedantic about it when I already provided evidence for it looking the part. It's fine though. If you continue with this I am going to nitpick the heck out of Beerus too.



> or have characters refer to them as such. It passes neither criterion.



Aeon is already clear on what they are, and they are alternate universes. We see every character of note in Castlevania: Judgement being capable of creating them.



> Do you even know what I'm referring to?



I do, and specifically note Harmony of Dissonance. If you actually bothered to read my post you would have seen that. You're back tracking, and changing the topic to something else.



> I'm referring to the fact that you fight on clouds with a wavy background, even though you just not half a moment ago took a stone elevator into a stone square to fight Dracula.



That's due the fact Dracula has control over the other dimension that he created, and is fooling around with its structure. We see Chaos do the same in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow. When in the Chaotic Realm it places each room of the castle in a different dimension.



> The only time when there are separate dimensions are when characters refer to them as such, like when Juste goes into another castle, or when Soma travels to Chaos' dimension.



No, it's also when we clearly see that they are different dimensions with stars and galaxies. You can't ignore them just because they're not noted to be exactly what they look like. In that case Beerus is not a universe destroyer because he never displays the collateral damage that would suggest he can instantly destroy the universe.

It goes both ways.

The visual evidence is the most important, and if it contradicts the dialogue then it comes first. I don't particularly like downplaying Beerus but I am going to if you keep spewing this garbage. Just keep in mind I am acknowledging that this is downplay, and that I am only doing it because you are being an idiot.

I do not actually believe it.



> By the way, that same background appears in the real castle, so good luck disproving that.



As seen in the Chaotic Realm, and with the Kyoma Demon and its mirror dimensions the castle is composed of multiple dimensions most of the time. So, I don't see the problem here.

Good luck working a narrative into how that the Kyoma Demon's mirror dimension isn't real and that the castle doesn't consist of multiple dimensions when it explicitly does.



> What black hole? That looks absolutely nothing like a black hole nor even a region of outer space for that matter.



That big black hole in the background, as we see stars dragged towards it and devoured by it before Dracula destroys the dimension and replaces it with another one.

Take a closer look at the background, and keep on watching the fight.



> It's a dark-red misty dimension with a dark spiral background resembling nothing in the real world.



It's a universe with a super-massive black hole that is eating stars in the background, and there is no way you can interpret it as anything else considering what we know about Dracula.



> Where's the accretion disk?



Oh, I get it.

You're from Anime Vice. That explains it.



> Where's the event horizon?



Show me a scientifically accurate black hole in fiction.

You would be hard pressed to find one, and an event horizon can't be seen to begin with.



> And if there are stars, where are they? The little white specks floating in the background?



Yes, those are stars whether you like it or not. You either accept it or I start being as pedantic are you are right now but in regards to Beerus. As made clear by Aeon these things are alternate universes which means those are stars, and even Brauner in Portrait of Ruin can make them.



> The dimension doesn't even look like space in the first place.



It does but the outer space part of it is _behind _the swirling tundra. Which is why I told you to look at it again.



> Argument completely moot and has no foundation.



My argument is solid, and yours is based on pedantry. As well as ignoring numerous showings that prove you wrong.



> Again, bunch of dots in the background, you have exactly 0 sources that says those things are stars, just a subjective interpretation.



They are stars as Aeon makes clear these things are alternate universes which means that those dots in outer space are stars. And yes, that black background we see in these dimensions is outer space.



> And Harmony of Dissonance? You would have to prove that Maxim created the moon and such. He was only ever stated to have created another castle, and Castlevania's control doesn't extend over celestial bodies, nor has it ever stated to be so. It's just a moon located outside the castle that you can see from the distance.



The other dimension was specifically created by Dracula, and he was fusing it with reality in order to combine his castles. Which would facilitate his resurrection. It is made clear throughout the story that Dracula is responsible for it, and it disappears when he is defeated. Which again proves that it was reliant on his demonic power.




> Literally nothing to prove anything about the castle Castlevania itself.



The castle is not called Castlevania. Have you even played any of the videogames?

I already rebuked this.



> He's only referring to timelines. Nor does it touch upon any point that I have made.



Aeon is not referring to time-lines. He says outright "alternate universe" word for word. Seriously, how can you miss that?



> ...W-what? Where do you see the characters creating universes ANYWHERE in that video?



Pay close attention to the background of those dimensions; we see stars in the background, and don't you dare say they're just floating dots there for no reason.

They are stars.

Get over it.



> Now that's something that you would have to prove. You're essentially going in a circle argument. "Chaos is a reality warper because he can fling galaxies like that and he can fling galaxies in and out of the background because he's a reality warper" You can't supplement evidence from one another. That's called circular reasoning.



No, it isn't.

We know Chaos is a reality warper already, and we know it created the Chaotic Realm because it cannot exist without it and disappears once it is destroyed.


As I have already noted.



> Also, galaxies don't warp or stretch if they are thrown fast. It doesn't follow any physical law in our world. And if you argue reality warping, again, you need to prove that.



Straw man.

That wasn't what I was saying. They appear to stretch and change shape because they are thrown so fast that they are blurs. As in what what we are seeing are after-images due to has fast they are being flung. I wasn't saying they were literally being stretched.



> And? That only proves that he created the dimension itself and that it cannot last without him. Nothing to prove any points I brought up.



It proves that it created the dimension, and yet you are still saying that means those galaxies were moving on their own? What else could have been moving besides what created the dimension?

Holy shit you are reaching now.



> Uh, no. He was explicitly sent to change the past by destroying Dracula himself, not to physically destroy the timeline.



I already posted the videos where it explicitly noted that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time, and the era itself. That was the only way it could erase Dracula from existence. Which is why it was sent to do that.

If you choose to ignore the narration there?

I am going to ignore any and all narration for Beerus.



> Again, "era" only refers to the era where Dracula was the Dark Lord. It would cease to exist if he was destroyed. He was, once again, explicitly sent to destroy Dracula. Never does it mention a side-effect.



Your reading comprehension is freaking garbage.

It never states that the Time Reaper was aiming to destroy Dracula, and therefore this would happen as a side effect. It states that the Time Reaper would destroy the fabric of time itself, and the era therefore as a side-effect Dracula would be destroyed. You have gotten it completely backwards, and are ignoring the narration.

In which case I am open to do the same with Beerus.



> Once more, look above.



Once more, look above. Since you feel free to ignore the actual narrative, and create your own Beerus is going to get the same treatment.

Since it is only by narrative claims that Beerus can destroy the universe he cannot.



> How is it not? Characters like Cornell appear in the game and Konami threw out Legacy of Darkness as canon in their 2007 timeline.



Citation needed, which you have yet to provide for any of your claims. I am not surprised, and yet I have done nothing but provide evidence. This is quite the predicament you are in.



> This means that Judgment is also non-canon as well. Also, it completely contradicts Aria of Sorrow where Dracula had already been destroyed by then.



No, it doesn't because Castlevania: Judgement is not set in the future it is set in the Time Rift which exists outside of time. Along with Aeon who is a time-traveler. Who transports the characters from their respective periods of time.

You have not played Castlevania: Judgement.

It does not contradict anything because it has no set period of time in which it happens as the events are happening in the Time Rift.



> Legacy of Darkness was specifically stated to be non-canon by Konami.



Citation needed that Konami stated this, and proof that it is still non-canon as of recent. Since Castlevania: Judgement would mean it's canon once more.



> Cornell still appears in Judgement. Thinking Judgement is canon is like thinking Harmony of Despair is canon, which it is not.



You says these things but provide positively no references for them. Where is the evidence for any of these so called claims that you have brought up? Why haven't you cited them?



> And you'll have to deal with the fact that your evidence needs to be put under heavy scrutiny before it can be accepted.



And you have to deal with the fact Beerus shall be put under the same scrutiny if you continue this. It goes both ways, and you don't get to treat your side to a different standard of evidence.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Oh, and before you ask for evidence that Brauner can create dimensions.


As noted by Charlotte herself. 

The castle is composed of multiple dimensions, Brauner was using the castle's demonic power to create entire dimensions, and each painting can house part of the castle which was a dimension in of itself. 

Many of which have planets, and celestial bodies.

Reactions: Like 2


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## tivanenk (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> They have been dismissed because of dumb cunts like yourself who have not been able to comprehend the significance of them.



No, they've been dismissed by actual players of the game who've actually paid attention to the feats in-game. Also, ad-hominems are usually employed when a person has no ground in an argument.



Soma Cruz said:


> They are stars, and galaxies in the back drop of one of the universes in the Chaotic Realm.



Again, they don't look like galaxies in the slightest (look up pictures of galaxies). And you'd have to prove the white dots are stars in the first place.



Soma Cruz said:


> Which they do, and you are simply being pedantic about it when I already provided evidence for it looking the part. It's fine though. If you continue with this I am going to nitpick the heck out of Beerus too.



Uh, have you actually seen a galaxy or are you just interpreting things? Also, I don't give a shit about Beerus. You can do whatever you want to him and I'll leave others to counter those arguments.



Soma Cruz said:


> Aeon is already clear on what they are, and they are alternate universes. We see every character of note in Castlevania: Judgement being capable of creating them.



Jesus christ, Aeon is talking about the fact that he pulled characters from alternate universes. It has nothing to do with the Chaos Realm.



Soma Cruz said:


> That's due the fact Dracula has control over the other dimension that he created, and is fooling around with its structure. We see Chaos do the same in Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow. When in the Chaotic Realm he places each room of the castle in a different dimension.



No evidence for that other than your own suppositions, and we can see on the map that they are directly connected. In fact, only the Floating Gardens were ever disconnected, barring portals into different dimensions.



Soma Cruz said:


> No, it's also when we clearly see that they are different dimensions with stars and galaxies. You can't ignore them just because they're not noted to be exactly what they look like. In that case Beerus is not a universe destroyer because he never displays the collateral damage that would suggest he can instantly destroy the universe.
> 
> It goes both ways.
> 
> ...



Again, you'd need to prove backdrops affect anything in game. Also, I know that Chaos Realm is a separate dimension. It literally has a separate map with a portal so don't wag your finger at me. Problem is, it's size is unknown, and dimension does not automatically equate to universe.



Soma Cruz said:


> As seen in the Chaotic Realm, and with the Kyoma Demon and its mirror dimensions the castle is composed of multiple dimensions most of the time. So, I don't see the problem here.
> 
> Good luck working a narrative into how that the Kyoma Demon's mirror dimension isn't real and that the castle doesn't consist of multiple dimensions when it explicitly does.



Mirror dimensions are small in-game and were never shown to be big. In fact, the biggest one was Aguni's residence if I'm not mistaken.



Soma Cruz said:


> That big black hole in the background, as we see stars dragged towards it and devoured by it before Dracula destroys the dimension and replaces it with another one.
> 
> Take a closer look at the background, and keep on watching the fight.



Literally no evidence that it's a big hole, or that there're stars anywhere in that fight.



Soma Cruz said:


> It's a universe with a super-massive black hole that is eating stars in the background, and there is no way you can interpret it as anything else considering what we know about Dracula.



Uh, yeah, you can. It's a chaotic dimension with weird shit going on. You can't even see outer space there, and there's no proof that it's a black hole whatsoever.



Soma Cruz said:


> Oh, I get it.
> 
> You're from Anime Vice. That explains it.



Literally doesn't answer my question.



Soma Cruz said:


> Show me a scientifically accurate black hole in fiction.
> 
> You would be hard pressed to find one, and an event horizon can't be seen to begin with.



Plenty of scientific black holes are in fiction that at least follow the basics of one (e.g. Guyver, Battle Angel Alita, etc.)



Soma Cruz said:


> Yes, those are stars whether you like it or not. You either accept it or I start being as pedantic are you are right now but in regards to Beerus. As made clear by Aeon these things are alternate universe which means those are stars, and even Brauner in Portrait of Ruin can make them.



Brauner's portraits are, again, of unknown size and there's no proof that there're actual stars in the backdrop of Dracula's fight.



Soma Cruz said:


> It does but the outer space part of it is _behind _the swirling tundra. Which is why I told you to look at it again.



Where? It's just a red-misty dimension.



Soma Cruz said:


> My argument is solid, and yours is based on pedantry. As well as ignoring numerous showings that prove you wrong.



Not really. Again, you're simply basing this on your own interpretations.



Soma Cruz said:


> They are stars as Aeon makes clear these things are alternate universes which means that those dots in outer space are stars. And yes, that black background we see in these dimensions is outer space.



What does Aeon's statement have anything to do with the white dots in Bloodlines? And the background changes from blue to black to blue, there's no proof of outer space either.



Soma Cruz said:


> The other dimension was specifically created by Dracula, and he was fusing it with reality in order to combine his castles. Which would facilitate his resurrection. It is made clear throughout the story that Dracula is responsible for it, and it disappears when he is defeated. Which again proves that it was reliant on his power.



That is only applicable to the castles themselves. Maxim was stated to create a separate castle, not a dimension. And you don't have proof that the moon is within the castle itself. And it was only ever stated that the castles were being fused, not the dimensions themselves.



Soma Cruz said:


> The castle is not called Castlevania. Have you even played any of the videogames?
> 
> I already rebuked this.



*jaw drop* Are you for real? Castlevania is literally a localization of Akumajou Dracula, which means 'Dracula's Castle'. Holy shit, I can't believe you cannot even get basic material right.



Soma Cruz said:


> Aeon is not referring to time-lines. He says outright "alternate universe" word for word. Seriously, how can you miss that?



Uh, yeah. That's what timelines are. Alternate universes. And he plucked the characters out of them. Did you actually pay attention to the game at all?



Soma Cruz said:


> Pay close attention in the background of those dimensions we see stars in the background, and don't you dare say they're just floating dots there for no reason.
> 
> They are stars.
> 
> Get over it.



What stars? There are only clouds there. And are you seriously going to attribute a move special to creating a universe? They could have, you know, done that to save budget considering that the stage returns to normal after the move special end. They're not creating a universe for a special move and then destroying it for no reason. That's just plain stupid.



Soma Cruz said:


> No, it isn't.
> 
> We know Chaos is a reality warper already, and we know it can create the Chaotic Realm because it cannot exist without it and disappears once it is destroyed.



"We know Chaos is a reality warper because I say so." No, no we don't. It's not stated anywhere that he is. And creating a dimension does not constitute reality warping.



Soma Cruz said:


> Straw man.
> 
> That wasn't what I was saying. They appear to stretch and change shape because they are thrown so fast that they are blurs. As in what what we are seeing are after-images due to has fast they are being flung. I wasn't saying they were literally being stretched.



That's not how physics work in real life. Even if something is going insanely fast, light wouldn't stretch regardless, or even appear to be stretch, like how you say it is. You need to actually think about it properly and not pull stuff out of your imagination.



Soma Cruz said:


> It proves that it created the dimension, and yet you are still saying that means those galaxies were moving on their own? What else could have been moving besides what created the dimension?
> 
> Holy shit you are reaching now.



They could be moving according to laws of that dimension, you know, which would be a constant. Chaos wouldn't have to actively move them.



Soma Cruz said:


> I already posted the videos where it explicitly noted that the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time, and the era itself. That was the only way it could erase Dracula from existence. Which is why it was sent to do that.
> 
> If you choose to ignore the narration here?
> 
> I am going to ignore any and all narration for Beerus.



Yeah, because when you change the past, that very time will cease to exist. He was sent to destroy Dracula as stated by narration. Again, don't give a shit about Beerus.



Soma Cruz said:


> Your reading comprehension is freaking garbage.
> 
> It never states that the Time Reaper was aiming to destroy Dracula, and therefore this would happen as a side effect. It states that the Time Reaper would destroy the fabric of time itself, and the era therefore as a side-effect Dracula would be destroyed. You have gotten it completely backwards, and are ignoring the narration.
> 
> In which case I am open to do the same with Beerus.



The era would be destroyed because there would be no more Dracula, and that era could only exist because of a consequence of Dracula's actions.



Soma Cruz said:


> Citation needed, which you have yet to provide for any of your claims. I am not surprised, and yet I have done nothing but provided evidence. This is quite the predicament you are in.



Sure. Here's the official Castlevania 2007 timeline. Legacy of Darkness is nowhere on that list.







Soma Cruz said:


> Citation needed that Konami stated this, and proof that it is still non-canon as of recent. Since Castlevania: Judgement would mean it's canon once more.



You need to prove that Castlevania Judgement is canon to prove that Legacy of Darkness is canon, which you cannot do.



Soma Cruz said:


> And you have to deal with the fact Beerus shall be put under the same scrutiny if you continue this. It goes both ways, and you don't get treat your side to a different standard of evidence.



Sure, go ahead mate.


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## Gordo solos (Feb 20, 2017)

NightmareCinema said:


> DB as a whole still has no defenses against soul steal.


Zamasu probably has resistance to soul fuck because of his immortality. Gowasu did say his soul became immortal, and an immortal soul merging with a mortal one was the reason why Fusion Zamasu went all Giygas after losing his body


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## Blade (Feb 20, 2017)

> saint rider calling others for spite vs threads

shut the fuck up and get out of my section

Reactions: Winner 16


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Bitch please , at least this Soma Cruz never give a Beerus advantage againts this Dracula . OP already know this Dracula win this battkes because DB verse lack hax ability .

Reactions: Dislike 6


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## Fang (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> Bitch please , at least this Soma Cruz never give a Beerus advantage againts this Dracula . OP already know this Dracula win this battkes because DB verse lack hax ability .



Its ironic your calling anyone out when 99% of your threads here or on SB are terrible mismatches in general. Also if a certain someone is complaining about the number or appearances of galaxies, I'll point out Saint Seiya with the Super Dimension creation feat by Hades that had Makai and Elysion filled with "billions upon billions" of galaxies and quasars aren't directly drawn by Kurumada by the same token, we're only shown dozens of them in a page even though we accept artistic intent on the author's part.

Dismissing that from Castlevania for the same token is short sighted, hypocritical, and stupid.

Hilarious dumb doubles standards there.

Reactions: Agree 8


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Fang said:


> Its ironic your calling anyone out when 99% of your threads here or on SB are terrible mismatches in general. Also if a certain someone is complaining about the number or appearances of galaxies, I'll point out Saint Seiya with the Super Dimension creation feat by Hades that had Makai and Elysion filled with "billions upon billions" of galaxies and quasars aren't directly drawn by Kurumada by the same token, we're only shown dozens of them in a page even though we accept artistic intent on the author's part.
> 
> Dismissing that from Castlevania for the same token is short sighted, hypocritical, and stupid.
> 
> Hilarious dumb doubles standards there.



So ? How can the hell Match between Hax vs Power is working ?

You must be know right Dragon Ball verse really lack hax ability and resistence , right ? this is why i called this match is terrible because Hax always make trump in everything compare to Power .

I still remember when i make thread abaout any Saint Seiya character vs Dragon Ball character should be banned . Simple because Saint Seiya verse have too much Hax and advantage compare to Dragon Bal who is several lacking Hax ability and resistence .

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gordo solos (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> So ? How can the hell Match between Hax vs Power is working ?
> 
> You must be know right Dragon Ball verse really lack hax ability and resistence , right ? this is why i called this match is terrible because Hax always make trump in everything compare to Power .
> 
> I still remember when i make thread abaout any Saint Seiya character vs Dragon Ball character should be banned . Simple because Saint Seiya verse have too much Hax and advantage compare to Dragon Bal who is several lacking Hax ability and resistence .


Dumb post is dumb


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## Blade (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider is the offspring of Akatora and Unknown

the OBD always wants clowns like him

we need to laugh, after all

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Fang (Feb 20, 2017)

saint rider 890 said:


> So ? How can the hell Match between Hax vs Power is working ?
> 
> You must be know right Dragon Ball verse really lack hax ability and resistence , right ? this is why i called this match is terrible because Hax always make trump in everything compare to Power .
> 
> I still remember when i make thread abaout any Saint Seiya character vs Dragon Ball character should be banned . Simple because Saint Seiya verse have too much Hax and advantage compare to Dragon Bal who is several lacking Hax ability and resistence .



Because this match up has both characters similar in speed and reaction/reflexes so there's no need for a speed equalization and Beerus can either beat Dracula with Hakai or lose to one of Draccula's more exotic powers.

Seems balanced to me.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 20, 2017)

Settle down, if you don't like a thread don't post in it, nobody is forcing you to do anything you don't want to do and if all you want to do is whine then I have a door to show you.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

How would Dracula escape if Beerus sealed him into an item like how he sealed Elder Kai into the Z Sword?

Zamasu who has instantaneous movement (a teleportation technique that allows kais to travel to pretty much anywhere, even different universes, without having to lock onto a ki signature) was unable to escape the mafuba that way and only managed to get out due to the seals being left behind. And when Whis was asked how he would get alternate timeline Beerus to deal with Future Zamasu (since he wouldn't be able to hakai him with the immortality granted to him by super shenron) he mentioned the gods have a sealing/BFR technique that is even better than the mafuba (this is likely referring to the sealing technique Beerus used on elder kai so that would mean Beerus's sealing>>>the mafuba's sealing).


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How would Dracula escape if Beerus sealed him into an item like how he sealed Elder Kai into the Z Sword?
> 
> Zamasu who has instantaneous movement (a teleportation technique that allows kais to travel to pretty much anywhere, even different universes, without having to lock onto a ki signature) was unable to escape the mafuba that way and only managed to get out due to the seals being left behind. And when Whis was asked how he would get alternate timeline Beerus to deal with Future Zamasu (since he wouldn't be able to hakai him with the immortality granted to him by super shenron) he mentioned the gods have a sealing/BFR technique that is even better than the mafuba (this is likely referring to the sealing technique Beerus used on elder kai so that would mean Beerus's sealing>>>the mafuba's sealing).


Beerus seals him into a sword and starts beating people with it?


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Beerus seals him into a sword and starts beating people with it?



With a universe level character inside it and Beerus also amping it with his ki that sword would slash through shit like there's no tomorrow


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## saint rider 890 (Feb 20, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> Dumb post is dumb





Blade said:


> saint rider is the offspring of Akatora and Unknown
> 
> the OBD always wants clowns like him
> 
> we need to laugh, after all







Fang said:


> Because this match up has both characters similar in speed and reaction/reflexes so there's no need for a speed equalization and Beerus can either beat Dracula with Hakai or lose to one of Draccula's more exotic powers.
> 
> Seems balanced to me.



This what op said about Dracula Ability.



> Soul steal, time-stop, resistance to time-stop, can summon tortured spirits from the Abyss and those spirits infused with his demonic power become demons subservient to him. He can create universes, and exist as a disembodied spirit that can possess people.
> 
> When he possesses Maxim Kischine he creates a dimension with another version of his castle, and was fusing that dimension with reality in order to combine his castles. The only thing stopping him from completing the process was Maxim Kischine's spirit.
> 
> ...



Balance my ass . Dracula win this much not to mention he have much Hax compare to Beerus .


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## Fang (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How would Dracula escape if Beerus sealed him into an item like how he sealed Elder Kai into the Z Sword?



Interesting proposition but the crux of the issue in your argument is the fact that Dracula is a fuck ton more powerful then the Elder Kaioshin by a hilarious order of magnitudes.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Fang said:


> Interesting proposition but the crux of the issue in your argument is the fact that Dracula is a fuck ton more powerful then the Elder Kaioshin by a hilarious order of magnitudes.



Beerus's sealing hax seems to be a technique rather than him using a specific item so it would be powered by a universe level+ power source (Beerus's ki). Dracula is baseline universal correct? So Beerus's sealing hax should have enough power behind it to seal him into any random item.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kurou (Feb 20, 2017)

Gohan didnt need universal power to break the Z sword

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gordo solos (Feb 20, 2017)

That sword was overrated


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Gohan didnt need universal power to break the Z sword


It takes pottery level DC to break a mafuba jar, yet it could still contain a universe+ level character like Zamasu
Breaking out from within a seal is clearly harder than breaking the seal while outside of it

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Kurou (Feb 20, 2017)

Nah the mafuba jar is just allergic to incompetence

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 5


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## Toaa (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> It takes pottery level DC to break a mafuba jar, yet it could still contain a universe+ level character like Zamasu
> Breaking out from within a seal is clearly harder than breaking the seal while outside of it


That actually.The sword was just a medium.If one is sealed he cant get out.Like with zamasu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Beerus's sealing hax seems to be a technique rather than him using a specific item so it would be powered by a universe level+ power source (Beerus's ki). Dracula is baseline universal correct? So Beerus's sealing hax should have enough power behind it to seal him into any random item.



I have strong doubts about it working but wait till Gywn responds.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> No, they've been dismissed by actual players of the game who've actually paid attention to the feats in-game. Also, ad-hominems are usually employed when a person has no ground in an argument.



No, they're being employed because I am arguing against someone who has evidently not played any of the titles in the franchise and is basing his arguments off of Anime Vice, and Google.

Welcome to the OBD, enjoy your stay.



> Again, they don't look like galaxies in the slightest (look up pictures of galaxies). And you'd have to prove the white dots are stars in the first place.



As I have already noted I have satisfied the burden of proof. You have not, and continue to not do so by using such dishonest tactics as posting evidence no one can even see because of how tiny it is.



> Uh, have you actually seen a galaxy or are you just interpreting things? Also, I don't give a shit about Beerus. You can do whatever you want to him and I'll leave others to counter those arguments.



Have you ever seen a galaxy before?

Those circular ovals can only be galaxies, and they are demonstratively different than the stars next to them. Not because I say so but because they share the general appearance of what they should look like considering Aria of Sorrow's limited graphics.



> Jesus christ, Aeon is talking about the fact that he pulled characters from alternate universes. It has nothing to do with the Chaos Realm.



Straw man.

I never said that it had anything to do with the Chaotic Realm. I said that Aeon notes that dimensions in Castlevania are alternate universe, and he is talking about the Time Rift. He is not talking about having pulled them from alternate universe. He is noting that the place they, known as the Time Rift which Aeon created, was an alternate universe.

Which sets a precedent for all of the other dimensions we see in the franchise.



> No evidence for that other than your own suppositions,



Countless pieces of evidence you ignore based on your pedantry you mean.



> and we can see on the map that they are directly connected.



No, we do not.

The Chaotic Realm is separate from the rest of the map, and treated as its own section entirely. You can see it after leaving the Chaotic Realm, and going back into reality.

You haven't played Aria of Sorrow, that's for sure.

Don't you go trying to say that you know the Chaotic Realm is a separate dimension when you just said that it is a part of the castle's map here. You dishonest sack of shit.

I will be watching for this.



> In fact, only the Floating Gardens were ever disconnected, barring portals into different dimensions.



Nope, we clear see that the mirror dimension is its own identical world in Aria of Sorrow and it is clarified in Portrait of Ruin that the castle is composed of different dimensions.



> Again, you'd need to prove backdrops affect anything in game.



You can plainly see the destruction caused by them in Dracula X Chronicles. Where part of Dracula's throne room is destroyed, and cracked by it.



> Also, I know that Chaos Realm is a separate dimension. It literally has a separate map with a portal so don't wag your finger at me.



Too bad, I already did. The fact you're back pedaling in the same post where you claim that the Chaotic Realm is a part of the castle is hilarious. Do you even read your own posts? 

I also made it clear that the castle is composed of entirely different dimensions, as seen in Portrait of Ruin. As confirmed by Charlotte.

Hook, line and sinker.



> Problem is, it's size is unknown, and dimension does not automatically equate to universe.



It's not of an unknown size. We see composed of multiple dimensions, several with celestial bodies and several galaxies.

It's on you to prove that they are not the stars, and galaxies they appear to be.



> Mirror dimensions are small in-game and were never shown to be big.



The Kyoma Demon's dimension is literally a reflection of reality, and we see as such when Soma Cruz passes by it.



> In fact, the biggest one was Aguni's residence if I'm not mistaken.



Nope, it is the Kyoma Demon's and Aguni's dimension is nowhere as large as it.



> Literally no evidence that it's a big hole, or that there're stars anywhere in that fight.



I even gave you a time-frame in that video where Dracula creates that dimension, and we see a black hole in the background that is dragging stars towards it. Pay attention to the background.



> Uh, yeah, you can. It's a chaotic dimension with weird shit going on. You can't even see outer space there, and there's no proof that it's a black hole whatsoever.



No, you can't. You can see the black void behind the swirling tundra, stars being dragged towards a huge black hole, and I even set the video on the time-frame where it begins. It's entirely on you that you can't see it.



> Literally doesn't answer my question.



It was a stupid question, and we see the accretion disk it's that swirling tundra you are fixating on. Whilst ignoring the vacuum of outer space, and the stars being dragged towards the black hole in the background.



> Plenty of scientific black holes are in fiction that at least follow the basics of one (e.g. Guyver, Battle Angel Alita, etc.)



The examples you all provided are all an unrealistic as this one. The ones in Guyver don't have event horizons or accretion disks either. Well, scratch the latter because we see the black hole in Dracula X Chronicles does have an accretion disk. So Guyver's is even more unrealistic than this one. The ones in Battle Angel Alita suffer from the same flaws.

This makes it clear you are debating by bias only. Since if you did have these apparent standards Guyver and Battle Angel Alita would fall under the same scrutiny.



> Brauner's portraits are, again, of unknown size and there's no proof that there're actual stars in the backdrop of Dracula's fight.



Brauner's portaits are, again, of clear size and we can see how large they are from their ranging from being the size of entire worlds and solar systems depending on which portrait we are referring to.

Aeon makes it clear that the dimensions they create are alternate universe. As seen with his Time Rift.



> Where? It's just a red-misty dimension.



I am going to have to literally photoshop it for you, aren't I?



We clearly see that A) this is another dimension B) a piece of the throne room is floating in it C) there is a black hole in the background D) it is dragging stars towards it and E) the dimension is destroyed by Dracula and replaced by another and F) the last dimension disappears once he is defeated.



> Not really. Again, you're simply basing this on your own interpretations.



Yes, really. You are basing this entirely on pedantry, and a personal bias as made clear that you accept Guyver's and Battle Angel Alita's black holes which in the former case is even more unrealistic than this one, and in the later case just as unrealistic as this one.

Neither of which cause as much collateral damage as this by literally eating nearby stars, either.

So scratch what I said they're both more unrealistic than this one.



> What does Aeon's statement have anything to do with the white dots in Bloodlines? And the background changes from blue to black to blue, there's no proof of outer space either.



Wrong again, that was because Dracula was moving the stars in that dimension and messing around with its structure as he was fighting. Which is why it was changing so much, and being twisted around.




> That is only applicable to the castles themselves.



No, it isn't as we see that the entire dimensions changes depending on Dracula's whims and disappears without him.



> Maxim was stated to create a separate castle, not a dimension.



Which included another dimension, and which was changed based on Dracula's whims before finally disappearing when Dracula was defeated.



> And you don't have proof that the moon is within the castle itself.



I never said that it was. It was a part of the dimension that Dracula created that housed the other castle, and that he was fusing with reality along with his other castle in order to facilitate his resurrection.



> And it was only ever stated that the castles were being fused, not the dimensions themselves.



Definitely included the dimension as well, as it was changing the structure of the world around the castle as Dracula progressed towards his resurrection and was fusing the dimensions together. Which is part of the reason why the dimension Dracula created was acting so strangely before he finished.



> *jaw drop* Are you for real? Castlevania is literally a localization of Akumajou Dracula, which means 'Dracula's Castle'. Holy shit, I can't believe you cannot even get basic material right.



I never once called the castle Castlevania, and only referred to it as the castle or Dracula's castle. Nor have I ever stated that Castlevania wasn't the localization of Akumajō Dorakyura. In which case if I did what you said here might have made some sense but sadly it doesn't. You would have also known this if you were at all familiar with the many times I brought up Akumajō Dorakyura: Kabuchi no Tsuisōkyoku in the many times I have debated before.

It should have keyed in you that I already knew when I brought up Dracula X Chronicles.



> Uh, yeah. That's what timelines are. Alternate universes. And he plucked the characters out of them. Did you actually pay attention to the game at all?



Yes, I did but apparently you have not since those videos I posted were of Aeon noting that the Time Rift he created was an alternate universe. He was not saying that he plucked them from alternate time-lines.

You have once again not payed attention to the evidence I provided, and are lying through your teeth.



> What stars? There are only clouds there.



In the background of those dimensions but you weren't paying attention to.











> And are you seriously going to attribute a move special to creating a universe?



We have the same standard of evidence regarding this when it comes to Guilty Gear. As in they are usable, and if you don't like it I don't care. Go to another forum.

It's also supported by things outside of it. Such as the Time Rift created by Aeon which he states is an alternate universe. Such as Brauner's dimensions, and the way he separates Dracula's castle into different ones as it's that humongous that it consists of dimensions verbatim.



> They could have, you know, done that to save budget considering that the stage returns to normal after the move special end. They're not creating a universe for a special move and then destroying it for no reason. That's just plain stupid.



No, it isn't because we see everything return to normal when someone who created a dimension is defeated. As seen with Dracula, as seen with Brauner's portraits, as seen with Death, and as seen repeatedly throughout the entire series.

What we see in Castlevania: Judgement is in line with everything else we see in the franchise.



> "We know Chaos is a reality warper because I say so." No, no we don't. It's not stated anywhere that he is. And creating a dimension does not constitute reality warping.



We know Chaos is reality warper because it created the Chaotic Realm, and the Chaotic Realm disappears without it. It is dependent on it. Just as the dimensions created by Dracula are dependent on him.

I already made this clear.



> That's not how physics work in real life.



Nothing works in fiction likes it does in real life, particularly not in Guyver or Battle Angel Alita. Which you tried to shoe-in despite them being even more unrealistic regarding black holes.



> Even if something is going insanely fast, light wouldn't stretch regardless, or even appear to be stretch, like how you say it is.



As I already noted Soma Cruz has extrasenory perceptions, and more than that the moment they "stretch" doesn't even happen when you are in the room. They happen as you leave the room, and the scene transitions which could be just a glitch and it probably is.



> You need to actually think about it properly and not pull stuff out of your imagination.



You need to hold yourself to the same standards of evidence with every series instead of playing the special snowflake angle with Guyver and Battle Angel Alita. Despite the fact their black holes are as unrealistic if not more so.



> They could be moving according to laws of that dimension, you know, which would be a constant. Chaos wouldn't have to actively move them.



That dimension which was created by Chaos. That dimensions whose rules was defined by Chaos. That dimension that ceases to exist without Chaos. That dimension which has stars, and galaxies that fly around when they shouldn't.

As dictated by Chaos.



> Yeah, because when you change the past, that very time will cease to exist. He was sent to destroy Dracula as stated by narration. Again, don't give a shit about Beerus.



He was sent back to destroy the fabric of time as stated by the narration, and destroy the time-line as noted by Aeon. I will screencap that for you too since you're apparently blind. You are _really_ testing my patience.








> The era would be destroyed because there would be no more Dracula, and that era could only exist because of a consequence of Dracula's actions.



There would be no more Dracula because he would cease to exist the moment the Time Reaper finished destroying the very fabric of time, and this era of time.

Note the above for a citation.



> Sure. Here's the official Castlevania 2007 timeline. Legacy of Darkness is nowhere on that list.



How about you find yourself something that I can actually read, SInce you have shrunk that image down so much that you can't see anything. I presume because it doesn't actually corroborate anything that you have said.



> You need to prove that Castlevania Judgement is canon to prove that Legacy of Darkness is canon, which you cannot do.



You need to prove what you posted actually says what you claim it does. You need to prove that it is up to date which it is not since Castlevania: Judgement was released in 2009 not 2007.

You have satisfied no burden of proof.



> Sure, go ahead mate.



No, I won't bite onto that bait anymore but I will rip on Guyver and Battle Angel Alita since they're your special snowflakes.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## SSBMonado (Feb 20, 2017)

i thought Judgment was accepted as a non-canon crossover, so why do you keep bringing it up as evidence?


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> i thought Judgment was accepted as a non-canon crossover, so why do you keep bringing it up as evidence?



As no one has provided any evidence that it is non-canon. That the evidence "provided" can't even be read, and is dated as 2007. When Castlevania: Judgement was made after that last time-line, and no one provided an updated time-line.

Seriously, I went over that in my post... _read_.


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## Fang (Feb 20, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> i thought Judgment was accepted as a non-canon crossover, so why do you keep bringing it up as evidence?



Igarashi never said it was non-canon from what I can find on the net, where are you getting its non-canon from? Its a Konami game, has the Castlevania title on it and is published as such.



			
				Igarashi said:
			
		

> After you see the trailer, I hope you see the game as something where you can run around in 360 degrees as an action game. So as many of you know, the Castlevania timelines goes over 1000 years. And there is a character trying to destroy that timeline. Simply, we wanted to get all the characters from past Castlevania titles into one game.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

So, basically Igarashi approves of it and wanted to include all characters from past titles.

Going so far as to include said supposedly "non-canon" characters into the time-line.

He even makes it sound like a multiverse with multiple timelines that all exist.

It's good to know how justified I was in being a dick.

Fang you are a lifesaver.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Fang said:


> I have strong doubts about it working but wait till Gywn responds.



So, since you're one of the few reasonable ones here.

If hakai just completely destroys the body, and spirit leaving absolutely nothing behind? Not working.

If it erases someone from existence preventing them from existing in the first place? A definite maybe. Since that's what the Time Reaper was planning on doing by destroying the fabric of time thus the time-line. Which would have supposedly destroyed Dracula according to Aeon.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> So, since you're one of the few reasonable ones here.
> 
> If hakai just completely destroys the body, and spirit leaving absolutely nothing behind? Not working.
> 
> If it erases someone from existence preventing them from existing in the first place? A definite maybe. Since that's what the Time Reaper was planning on doing by destroying the fabric of time thus the time-line. Which would have supposedly destroyed Dracula according to Aeon.



He wasn't referring to hakai. He was referring to Beerus's sealing hax. Has Dracula shown resistance to sealing hax?


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> He wasn't referring to hakai. He was referring to Beerus's sealing hax. Has Dracula shown resistance to sealing hax?



Ah, okay.

Kinda missed that because of my long post against tivanenk.

There's various methods of sealing in order to bind magic in Castlevania. Against Dracula it required someone as powerful as Julius Belmont to seal his castle, and therefore a large portion of his demonic power.

Up until that point no one else successfully sealed it.

There is also Dracula's cross-dimensional abilities to consider, his immunity to transmutation, and the fact Dracula has his own impressive sealing abilities. As seen in his castle. He can magically seal doors preventing even someone as powerful as the Belmonts or Belnades from passing by them without unlocking them first.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Ah, okay.
> 
> Kinda missed that because of my long post against tivanenk.
> 
> ...



The mafuba (which isn't as effective as Beerus's sealing hax) was able to contain Zamasu, a universe level+ character with a teleportation technique (Instantaneous movement) that is potent enough to allow kais to travel to different universes. 

And if this profile for Julius Belmont is accurate  than Beerus should be more powerful than him as he's universe level + (can destroy the universe while not even using his full power and is more powerful than the transformed forms of characters who are universe level in base).


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The mafuba (which isn't as effective as Beerus's sealing hax) was able to contain Zamasu, a universe level+ character with a teleportation technique (Instantaneous movement) that is potent enough to allow kais to travel to different universes.
> 
> And if this profile for Julius Belmont is accurate  than Beerus should be more powerful than him as he's universe level + (can destroy the universe while not even using his full power and is more powerful than the transformed forms of characters who are universe level in base).


Julius is above several baseline universal characters such as Time Reaper and Aeon. Actually, it can be argued Aeon is above baseline too but I'd rather we just stick with baseline universal for Aeon. Heck, Alucard, Yoko and Julius all had to gang up on Dark Lord Soma who is several magnitudes above baseline universal at the very least.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The mafuba (which isn't as effective as Beerus's sealing hax) was able to contain Zamasu, a universe level+ character with a teleportation technique (Instantaneous movement) that is potent enough to allow kais to travel to different universes.
> 
> And if this profile for Julius Belmont is accurate  than Beerus should be more powerful than him as he's universe level + (can destroy the universe while not even using his full power and is more powerful than the transformed forms of characters who are universe level in base).



Actually, it's inaccurate.

I need to update it against as per review of the Chaotic Realm and the fact that Dracula's castle consistents of a multitude of different dimensions as per Portrait of Ruin it might actually be a multiverse.

All thanks to tivanenk Castlevania might be getting more upgrades. At least for Julius Belmont and Soma Cruz.

They might be legit multiversal. 

Wait, I am getting the scans now I will just be a moment.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Julius is above several baseline universal characters such as Time Reaper and Aeon. Actually, it can be argued Aeon is above baseline too but I'd rather we just stick with baseline universal for Aeon. Heck, Alucard, Yoko and Julius all had to gang up on Dark Lord Soma who is several magnitudes above baseline universal at the very least.



Beerus is >SSJB Vegito>Fusion Zamasu>SSB KKx10 Goku>SSJ rage Trunks>SSB Vegeta(post hyperbolic time chamber training/current)=>Current SSB Goku=Current Hit and so and so forth (basically not including versions of the same characters from previous arcs Golden Frieza, and some U6 fighters) with Battle of Gods arc Base Goku w/god ki who destroyed a universe level+ attack being at the start of it. So yeah, he's *many* orders of magnitude above baseline universal. 



Soma Cruz said:


> Actually, it's inaccurate.
> 
> I need to update it against as per review of the Chaotic Realm and the fact that Dracula's castle consistents of a multitude of different dimensions as per Portrait of Ruin it might actually be a multiverse.
> 
> ...



Well even if Julius is multiversal it may take a lot less power to seal just Dracula rather than his entire castle. If multiverse level power isn't necessary to seal Dracula himself Beerus's sealing should work.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Well even if Julius is multiversal it may take a lot less power to seal just Dracula rather than his entire castle. If multiverse level power isn't necessary to seal Dracula himself Beerus's sealing should work.



The castle is an expression of Dracula's demonic power, and created by him. As well as being representative of Chaos. Who Dracula, as a Dark Lord, is an avatar of.

You need to be able to seal the castle in order to seal him, and even as a disembodied spirit as I noted before Dracula was fusing the dimension he created with reality in order to combine his castles. In Harmony of Dissonance.

As for the scans.

This is just for the Chaotic Realm. I will work on Portrait of Ruin later.

There's one.



There's two.



Here's three.



And here's four.



So, even if you assume one and four and two and three are the same because they look alike the Chaotic Realm is at the very least made up of two different universes.

Which makes Julius Belmont, and Soma Cruz multiversal.


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## Gordo solos (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> So basically, Beerus can't actually do it across different time-lines? Since that seems like it explicitly failed to do as described. Since a Zamasu in another time-line was born.
> 
> Destroying space-time isn't strange, we see Death cleave through it and the Time Reaper was going to destroy the fabric of time when it was going to destroy the entire era.


That part was weird, but it basically went like this

Zamasu was erased by Beerus, but it created another timeline with him in it

DB already had 4-5 existing timelines, and most of the Zamasus in those timelines were erased as well (Black survived because of the Time Ring and Future Zamasu survived because of his immortality). So basically it created another timeline with Zamasu in it but Zamasu was erased in most of the other timelines


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## Agent9149 (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> baseline universal.



what is considered base line universal here on the obd


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> what is considered base line universal here on the obd



Just being able to destroy a universe and nothing more. Not being more powerful than an already baseline universal character.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> The castle is an expression of Dracula's demonic power, and created by him. As well as being representative of Chaos. Who Dracula, as a Dark Lord, is an avatar of.
> 
> *You need to be able to seal the castle in order to seal him*, and even as a disembodied spirit as I noted before Dracula was fusing the dimension he created with reality in order to combine his castles. In Harmony of Dissonance.
> 
> ...



Eh. Do you have proof of the bold? From what i've looked up sealing the castle was just required to end Dracula's regeneration cycle, it doesn't seem like it was required to seal Dracula himself. It sounds like a separate deal from just sealing Dracula into an object.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Gordo solos said:


> That part was weird, but it basically went like this
> 
> Zamasu was erased by Beerus, but it created another timeline with him in it



That seems to me to be something like branching time-lines. When you do one thing, you do the opposite of what you do in another time-line. Where Beerus didn't hakai  Zamasu, and instead decided not to.

Since looking at it again it says "another world where Zamasu wasn't destroyed was born."



> DB already had 4-5 existing timelines, and most of the Zamasus in those timelines were erased as well (Black survived because of the Time Ring and Future Zamasu survived because of his immortality). So basically it created another timeline with Zamasu in it but Zamasu was erased in most of the other timelines



Yet, there are time-lines where Beerus either chooses not destroyed Zamasu or fails to as we see in the one where Zamasu wasn't destroyed. The only thing that it shows me is that it doesn't actually extend to all time-lines, and has some sort of limit. Since unless that was the same one where he is immortal there is no reason why he shouldn't have been destroyed.



xenos5 said:


> Eh. Do you have proof of the bold? From what i've looked up sealing the castle was just required to end Dracula's regeneration cycle, it doesn't seem like it was required to seal Dracula himself. It sounds like a separate deal from just sealing Dracula into an object.



It was but that was because Dracula could not continue on as the Dark Lord, and continue his regeneration cycle because he lost a large portion of his demonic power. Which is why he reincarnated as Soma Cruz. Who grinds his way up to defeating Chaos with the power of dominance. 

Despite sealing the castle they couldn't find and seal his soul.

It was either slippery, or harder to seal. Probably the former but maybe the latter.


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## Gordo solos (Feb 20, 2017)

Fang said:


> Interesting proposition but the crux of the issue in your argument is the fact that Dracula is a fuck ton more powerful then the Elder Kaioshin by a hilarious order of magnitudes.


Whis would have been better suited for this. He said he knows something better than Mafuba and was the one that stopped the cycle of Zamasu and new timelines being created when alt-timeline Beerus kills Zamasu again in the new timeline

He also implies he could have sealed Future Zamasu


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> It was but that was because Dracula could not continue on as the Dark Lord, and continue his regeneration cycle because he lost a large portion of his demonic power. Which is why he reincarnated as Soma Cruz. Who grinds his way up to defeating Chaos with the power of dominance.
> 
> Despite sealing the castle they couldn't find and seal his soul.
> 
> It was either slippery, or harder to seal. Probably the former but maybe the latter.



Well in this fight it wouldn't be too hard to find Dracula's soul, right? Beerus could just seal Dracula into an object while he's still in his physical body. Or if he destroys Dracula's physical body first Dracula's soul wouldn't have much time to escape right after.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Well in this fight it wouldn't be too hard to find Dracula's soul, right?



Julius Belmont's fight with Dracula was being observed by Alucard, Yoko Belnades, the church, and several secretive clandestine organizations delving into the mystic arts.

Nobody found Soma Cruz until it was too late, and he was dragged to the castle. This despite knowing about a prophetic vision that told them that he would reincarnate. That's eighteen years of searching, and finding nothing. That's with Dracula's spirit being greatly weakened, and severed from its connection to Chaos.

I doubt Beerus would fare any better at finding it.



> Beerus could just seal Dracula into an object while he's still in his physical body. Or if he destroys Dracula's physical body first Dracula's soul wouldn't have much time to escape right after.



If Beerus destroys Dracula first. As we see that soul steal completely destroys something's body when it is used against them. Such as when Alucard uses it in a scripted event during Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow.


So basically, I believed someone mentioned a quick draw earlier?

I think that this is what it would amount to.

However, Dracula's refusal to stay down could be what gives him a definite advantage.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Julius Belmont's fight with Dracula was being observed by Alucard, Yoko Belnades, the church, and several secretive clandestine organizations delving into the mystic arts.
> 
> Nobody found Soma Cruz until it was too late, and he was dragged to the castle. This despite knowing about a prophetic vision that told him that he would reincarnate. That's eighteen years of searching, and finding nothing. That's with Dracula's spirit being greatly weakened, and severed from its connection to Chaos.
> 
> I doubt Beerus would fare any better at finding it.



How good is the energy sensing of those characters? Beerus can sense energy within a multi-galactic range so his sensing should be very potent. 



Soma Cruz said:


> If Beerus destroys Dracula first. As we see that soul steal completely destroys something's body when it is used against them. Such as when Alucard uses it in a scripted event during Castlevania: Aria of Sorrow.
> 
> 
> *So basically, I believed someone mentioned a quick draw earlier?
> ...



Alright.


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> How good is the energy sensing of those characters? Beerus can sense energy within a multi-galactic range so his sensing should be very potent.



Alucard was able to sense, and intercept Chaos's spirit before it could possess Soma Cruz and drive him bonkers. Which considering that Chaos exists within the Chaotic Realm which isn't even in the same universe?

Well, that kinda speaks for itself. 



> Alright.



So, that seems to be the general consensus. 

Quick draw it is.


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## xenos5 (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Alucard was able to sense, and intercept Chaos's spirit before it could possess Soma Cruz and drive him bonkers. Which considering that Chaos exists within the Chaotic Realm which isn't even in the same universe?
> 
> Well, that kinda speaks for itself.



Hmmm... did Chaos's spirit definitely attempt to possess Soma *from* the chaos realm or did he move to the living realm and then Alucard sensed him and interecepted him?


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Hmmm... did Chaos's spirit definitely attempt to possess Soma *from* the chaos realm or did he move to the living realm and then Alucard sensed him and interecepted him?



Chaos is always in the Chaotic Realm, and that's even when it possesses a Dark Lord. The Dark Lord, and his castle are its avatars in the world.

As we see that the possession was partially successful but Alucard manages to hold back the rest of Chaos.

As evident by Soma Cruz's eyes becoming red, and his hair going wild.

Along with his memories as Dracula coming back.


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## Montanz (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> At least quadrillions of times the speed of light due to Chaos's galaxy frisbees, likely higher. Just need someone to calculate it.



How do you figure it is nearing quadrillion times c if no one has calculated it?
I calling BS on that.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 20, 2017)

Montanz said:


> How do you figure it is nearing quadrillion times c if no one has calculated it?
> I calling BS on that.


I think it was Gordo who said that. He gave a guesstimate.


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## Nep Heart (Feb 20, 2017)

Average intergalactic distances should be a few million parsecs, so, it really depends on timeframe a galaxy can cross the distance of a neighboring galaxy. Likely hundreds of trillions to single digit quadrillions if timeframe is a few seconds going off from my calc experience.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Montanz said:


> How do you figure it is nearing quadrillion times c if no one has calculated it?
> I calling BS on that.



Since say even if we assume those were the size of our galaxy they would be crossing the distance of hundreds of thousands of light-years in less than seconds.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 20, 2017)

what's this feat?


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> what's this feat?




3:16+


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 20, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> 3:16+



that background CLEARLY looks like the thing moving is the castle he's standing in, not the stuff in the background, hence why the stuff in the background is moving uniformly and stretching and rotating around a fixed point...

this isn't a speed feat at all


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## Atem (Feb 20, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> that background CLEARLY looks like the thing moving is the castle he's standing in, not the stuff in the background, hence why the stuff in the background is moving uniformly and stretching and rotating around a fixed point...
> 
> this isn't a speed feat at all



It is.

Just note the other universe we see in the Chaotic Realm. Which isn't moving at all.

You can see that at 6:02+ with a huge moon in back ground, and it is staying perfectly still. Which means that in those other rooms it is not the castle that is moving. It is the universes we see inside of the different rooms. Unless you have some other explanation as to why it's only specifically those universes that are spinning around when the others are not.


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## Montanz (Feb 20, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> snap






Ampchu said:


> snip



This is just to put things into perspective, assume someone can throw the milky way so fast it can cross 10 times its own length under 1 sec 

9.4605284e21 m/s = 3.15e13   roughly *31 trillion times c*, 

Let's do that again except this time it crosses 100 times its own length and it's still only *310 trillions of times c*. (this is roughly the same as crossing the distance between andromeda and the milky way 4 times in a second)

That's still not hitting the quadrillions, nevermind the fact our galaxy is actually quite large, average galaxy is 10 times smaller than that and is the assumption one uses when the galaxy is unknown and has no stated size.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Also, for reference that Brauner's paintings have celestial bodies in Portrait of Ruin.



Again, just keep in mind there are _nine_ of these.

So, that means Dracula's castle has at least nine different dimensions.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> You can see that at 6:02+ with a huge moon in back ground, and it is staying perfectly still. Which means that in those other rooms it is not the castle that is moving. It is the universes we see inside of the different rooms. Unless you have some other explanation as to why it's only specifically those universes that are spinning around when the others are not.



Think this through for a second, the rooms are in different places, so what's happening in one room has absolutely no bearing on what's happening in another because there's already been introduced an element of weird portal/alt universe stuff going on

this is Occam's razor at work

What makes more sense, that the universe is distorting and shifting in a uniformed manner around a fixed point because reasons or that the castle is moving through space? Like the issue isn't JUST that the stuff outside the castle is moving, the issue is that everything is moving in exactly the same way and is also rotating and distorting in a manner as if it were moving closer to the viewer 

For this to make sense you have to assume: 

a) someone is moving the entire universe
b) they're moving everything in the universe at exactly the same speed
c) they're moving everything in the universe in exactly the same way
d) they're also distorting the universe, spatially elongating or compressing things
e) they're doing the above in a way that makes it look like things are moving towards you on purpose for some reason

Whereas for the castle to be moving you have to assume:

a) the castle is moving

Think about it this way, for your idea, you have to start with the idea and then work backwards giving reasons for things that don't make sense:

A is happening, B is also happening, C is also happening, D is also happening, E is also happening

versus

A is happening, this causes the appearance of B, C, D and E to happen.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Think this through for a second, the rooms are in different places, so what's happening in one room has absolutely no bearing on what's happening in another because there's already been introduced an element of weird portal/alt universe stuff going on
> 
> this is Occam's razor at work



It does because what's changing is the rooms, and not the castle.

The castle is the same is every dimension it is in. It is stuck in place in them, and what's different is where it is not what it is.

In order for your assumption to work we must assume every room is not only containing a different dimension but also a different castle.

This is never noted to be the case, and unlike Harmony of Dissonance the castle has not been split into two.



> What makes more sense, that the universe is distorting and shifting in a uniformed manner around a fixed point because reasons or that the castle is moving through space?



The former since it's not uniform all the time either. At 6:34+ we see them not moving in a circular pattern, and instead downwards. It is not even adhering to the same pattern in all the rooms. Then there's the fact we even see some galaxies change size, and I am not talking about those ones we see stretch as you exit those particular rooms.



> Like the issue isn't JUST that the stuff outside the castle is moving, the issue is that everything is moving in exactly the same way and is also rotating and distorting in a manner as if it were moving closer to the viewer



Yet it doesn't adhere to this pattern in the other room, and we do see some clear changes being made to those galaxies in regards to size. I am not seeing how I am the one defying Occam's Razor here.



> For this to make sense you have to assume:
> 
> a) someone is moving the entire universe



Chaos, we already got that and since we know the castle is an extension of itself that means those dimensions are too.



> b) they're moving everything in the universe at exactly the same speed



Actually no, in the other room speed drastically changes and gets even faster and takes on a different pattern.



> c) they're moving everything in the universe in exactly the same way



Already was clear on this in the above we see what is likely that same universe take on an entire different pattern, and speed for those stars and galaxies.



> d) they're also distorting the universe, spatially elongating or compressing things



Which we see that Chaos is doing as it changes its whims. In one room the universe follows a pattern, in another the same apparent universe does something different.



> e) they're doing the above in a way that makes it look like things are moving towards you on purpose for some reason



In one section of the castle. The same apparent universe or one that looks nearly identical changes the pattern and speed of it.



> Whereas for the castle to be moving you have to assume:
> 
> a) the castle is moving



B) That it has been divided as seen in Harmony of Dissonance when that was never noted to have been done by Julius Belmont when he sealed it.
C) That the other nearly identical universe is an entirely different one despite being nearly identical.
D) As well as ignore that the castle is not seen moving in the other universe in the Chaotic Realm or anything is moving for that matter.
E) That the galaxies change size by getting closer, and without becoming bluring shapes.

Who was defying Occam's Razor?

Now let's discuss E once more. I know you're going to attribute the change in size as the castle flying towards those galaxies.

In which case how fast does the castle have to be flying in order for us to see such a drastic change in the size of a galaxy as the castle approaches it?

No matter how you slice it is a showing of speed. Unless you want to argue that the castle is not being moved by Chaos either.



> Think about it this way, for your idea, you have to start with the idea and then work backwards giving reasons for things that don't make sense:
> 
> A is happening, B is also happening, C is also happening, D is also happening, E is also happening
> 
> ...



No, how about you think of it this way. Your theory hitches on the castle being divided as it was in Harmony of Dissonance. Which is never noted in Aria of Sorrow. It is reliant on assuming that the other time we see that universe the flight pattern, and speed of those galaxies are entirely different; that said universe despite being identical is a different one. That it is not even a showing of speed. Despite the fact that if Chaos was flying the castle instead that means it is approaching the galaxies that grow in size in moments.

I prefer the former than A) it is happening despite it not in another room with the same universe B) despite the fact that the castle has not been divided as it was in Harmony of Dissonance C) assume that the identical universe is a different one entirely D) ignore that we don't see the castle moving in another room and E) that the castle is flying towards those galaxies that grow larger.

In the case of E it is still a showing of speed.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Upon closer inspection you can even see the same universe, from the same room changing its pattern and speed when you enter it again.

In that 6:34+ instance I mentioned.

So you can't even argue that one has a set pattern, and speed.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Also, just because.

Dawn of Sorrow's library makes it clear that the castle is the symbol of Dracula's demonic power. Also, apparently Julius Belmont did have help but it was a priest rather than a priestess. 



@HouseScarlet 

Apparently, you were right Julius Belmont did have help but it wasn't a priestess. Which explains why I couldn't find that wikipedia's reference. They got the gender wrong. 

So just keep in mind, Julius Belmont a person who could fight Soma Cruz at his strongest in Aria of Sorrow before fighting Chaos couldn't seal Dracula's castle away by himself and needed help from a priest in order to finish it. 

Which caused Julius Belmont to lapse into a coma.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> It does because what's changing is the rooms, and not the castle.
> 
> The castle is the same is every dimension it is in. It is stuck in place in them, and what's different is where it is not what it is.



okay let me ask you this

let's say we go to one of the rooms in the castle where we can see out and we leave the castle and go out into the abyss and we look back at the castle, what will we see? 

possible answers:

1. Segments of a castle that abruptly vanish into portals at various points where the room transitions into and out of other dimensions
2. a whole castle

I mean it could be either, I have no idea

1. favours your interpretation, 2. favours mine



Soma Cruz said:


> The former since it's not uniform all the time either. At 6:34+ we see them not moving in a circular pattern, and instead downwards. It is not even adhering to the same pattern in all the rooms. Then there's the fact we even see some galaxies change size, and I am not talking about those ones we see stretch as you exit those particular rooms.



I don't think you understand what my objection here is exactly, I don't mean that it's moving at a constant speed, I mean it's moving uniformly i.e. the entire universe is moving in the same manner, all down at once or all sideways at once or all up at once, or all rotating at once or all getting closer at once



Soma Cruz said:


> Yet it doesn't adhere to this pattern in the other room, and we do see some clear changes being made to those galaxies in regards to size. I am not seeing how I am the one defying Occam's Razor here.



the other room isn't relevant to what I'm arguing here



Soma Cruz said:


> E) That the galaxies change size by getting closer, and without becoming bluring shapes.



what?





They clearly get blurrier here



Soma Cruz said:


> Now let's discuss E once more. I know you're going to attribute the change in size as the castle flying towards those galaxies.



I'm actually not convinced those are galaxies but accepting your supposition that they are, the speed required is at absolute most about 40 trillion times FTL assuming that the galaxies involved are absolutely massive for no reason at all, if they're typical galaxies then the speed drops to a figure like 100 billion x FTL




Soma Cruz said:


> No matter how you slice it is a showing of speed. Unless you want to argue that the castle is not being moved by Chaos either.



fair enough, I misspoke, what I should have said was "that's not a speed feat in the way you're saying it's a speed feat" it is still a speed feat

obviously the next question here is, why does this speed scale to anyone?


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## Montanz (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> 3:16+


I'm certain that this isn't close to a quadrillion

The objects we can identify as galaxies don't appear to be moving more than a dozen of times their own diameter per second, even if we are to assume they're milky way sized it's still only in the low trillions range.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> okay let me ask you this
> 
> let's say we go to one of the rooms in the castle where we can see out and we leave the castle and go out into the abyss and we look back at the castle, what will we see?
> 
> ...



No?

The latter favors my interpretation. The castle itself is fixed at one point in all of these dimensions as I have already noted, and even when split in Harmony of Dissonance it was the same. The castle is kind of like a multiversal intersection, and every universe is a branch of it into a different reality which is a part of it.

It's not moving at all.

It is simply anchored for lack of a better word wherever it is.

So, like a tree basically and the roots are different dimensions. The castle is not teleporting between these dimensions. These dimensions are a part of it. I am not sure where you are getting the first interpretation from.

I already made it clear earlier with Portrait of Ruin. When Brauner separated it into nine different dimensions in his paintings. A few pages back with Charlotte.



> I don't think you understand what my objection here is exactly, I don't mean that it's moving at a constant speed, I mean it's moving uniformly i.e. the entire universe is moving in the same manner, all down at once or all sideways at once or all up at once, or all rotating at once or all getting closer at once



It's not when you go into the same rooms the pattern changes, and it's not just for that other room. Now that I have checked it is the same for the both of them. Just entering, and leaving the room causes the patterns and speeds to both change. Which is relevant because it's not always moving in the same way, and the pattern is changing.

The stars and galaxies are placed in different positions than before, and moving in a different direction than before.



> the other room isn't relevant to what I'm arguing here



It is because all these rooms are the same in that entering them changes the pattern and speed at which they move.

Along with the position where the stars, and galaxies are.



> what?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not when they get really blurry. Instances such as this?



That's nothing.

Now this is when things get _ridiculous_.






> I'm actually not convinced those are galaxies but accepting your supposition that they are,



Why not? Do you think they might be quasars or something instead? I suppose that could be a possibility but they seem more like galaxies than they do quasars to me.



> the speed required is at absolute most about 40 trillion times FTL assuming that the galaxies involved are absolutely massive for no reason at all, if they're typical galaxies then the speed drops to a figure like 100 billion x FTL



Assuming that's the case Beerus might have the speed advantage here.

However, considering what I found from Dawn of Sorrow's library, the fact the castle is representative of Dracula's demonic power and Portrait of Ruin confirming that it has multiple dimensions his feat of fusing the castle with the other one in Harmony of Dissonance is most likely multiversal.

So now it seems the previous consensus might need to change from both being evenly matched to Beerus being faster and Dracula having a wider scope of reality warping and firepower.



> fair enough, I misspoke, what I should have said was "that's not a speed feat in the way you're saying it's a speed feat" it is still a speed feat
> 
> obviously the next question here is, why does this speed scale to anyone?



Chaos, and its thrown projectile attacks. Generally any attack where its uses its telekinesis in some way, in many cases Soma Cruz are faster than those attacks and can easily dodge them. Before you say anything about them not appearing to move as fast. Just keep in mind Paranoia's lasers from Dawn of Sorrow, despite behaving like light and bouncing off mirrors, aren't displayed as fast as they should be. If you want to argue that because we don't see them move as fast as they should or something they aren't.

You're going to find a lot of trouble with that though.

Since werejaguars who can explicitly punch as fast as sound as confirmed by the item they drop Mach Punch they don't appear to do so either.



Montanz said:


> I'm certain that this isn't close to a quadrillion
> 
> The objects we can identify as galaxies don't appear to be moving more than a dozen of times their own diameter per second, even if we are to assume they're milky way sized it's still only in the low trillions range.



That's not actually the most impressive instance. There is another starting at 6:34+ in that video.

Specifically, this instance at 6:36.


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## tivanenk (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Why not? Do you think they might be quasars or something instead? I suppose that could be a possibility but they seem more like galaxies than they do quasars to me.



Honestly, if you're still insistent on the fact that those are real celestial bodies, I could easily point out that they could be nebulae and not galaxies, which are much smaller in size.


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## trance (Feb 21, 2017)

Match seems pretty evenly matched in a fist fight

DB has come a long way in the hax area but they still fall short in most cases and this seems to be one of those cases


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Honestly, if you're still insistent on the fact that those are real celestial bodies, I could easily point out that they could be nebulae and not galaxies, which are much smaller in size.



They're not nebulae.



Unless you want to argue they somehow look like this. Which they don't. Quasars I can't really see them as either since they are lacking a lot of the qualities of one.


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## Toaa (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> That seems to me to be something like branching time-lines. When you do one thing, you do the opposite of what you do in another time-line. Where Beerus didn't hakai  Zamasu, and instead decided not to.
> 
> Since looking at it again it says "another world where Zamasu wasn't destroyed was born."
> 
> ...


All the other zamasu died.Two survived one due to immortality and one due to time ring.


Also i thought we dont easily accept celestial bodies from older games due to how unclear they are like in the case of dmc1 with the mundus feat.


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## Bad Wolf (Feb 21, 2017)

Toaa said:


> All the other zamasu died.Two survived one due to immortality and one due to time ring.


Not really, one was created by beerus trying to change time, as Whis said. It's more likely that beerus didn't know about time stuff and only believed that he would just kill every other Zamasu


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

Toaa said:


> All the other zamasu died.Two survived one due to immortality and one due to time ring.
> 
> 
> Also i thought we dont easily accept celestial bodies from older games due to how unclear they are like in the case of dmc1 with the mundus feat.



No, we don't accept that because it's an outlier. We acknowledge that it is a dimension with stars but it is such a humongous outlier with no other instances of it happening that it is dismissed as a result of that.

Whereas here we have thirteen different characters capable of it in Castlevania, and that's in Castlevania: Judgement _alone_.

There's Brauner in Portrait of Ruin which makes fourteen, and Chaos in Aria of Sorrow which makes fifteen.

Aeon's Time Rift which he straight up refered to as an alternate universe. That makes sixteen.

The Time Reaper which was going to destroy the very fabric of time, along with the time-line.

Which shows that this is within the scale of things.

Dracula destroying his dimensions in Dracula X Chronicles. Dracula, and Death creating dimensions throughout the series.

You catch my drift.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 21, 2017)

Celestial bodies do not a universe make, for the record. A moon or a couple of stars being visible in the sky only means that the pocket dimension is big enough to house a moon or a couple of stars. That's still big, of course, but hardly enough to suggest a proper universe. 

Are you assuming that the chaotic realm has 15 dimensions based on the number of rooms? Guesstimating here


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Celestial bodies do not a universe make, for the record. A moon or a couple of stars being visible in the sky only means that the pocket dimension is big enough to house a moon or a couple of stars. That's still big, of course, but hardly enough to suggest a proper universe.



Soma Cruz's foray into the Chaotic Realm makes it clear they have stars and galaxies when seen at the right angle. So, it sets the precedent for the other dimensions that we see in the castle. Unless you want to argue that they are all different in size for some reason. Just so you know that's never noted. However, neither is the fact they are the same size. You could assume either position there.



> Are you assuming that the chaotic realm has 15 dimensions based on the number of rooms? Guesstimating here



No, I am assuming it has two.

Since we see two, distinctly different ones. As I already noted some pages ago when I started screen-scapping things. If you consider each room distinct room even the ones that look similar? Then it's even more that.

Considering Portrait of Ruin it is more along the vein of nine dimensions. Plus the Chaotic Realm's dimensions so probably eleven.

More if we consider the ones that look similar different.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Assuming that's the case Beerus might have the speed advantage here.
> 
> However, considering what I found from Dawn of Sorrow's library, the fact the castle is representative of Dracula's demonic power and Portrait of Ruin confirming that it has multiple dimensions his feat of fusing the castle with the other one in Harmony of Dissonance is most likely multiversal.



Unless the castle is like the tardis where its bigger on the inside (which you'd have to provide proof of) doesn't it make more sense to assume those snippets of other dimensions we see aren't actually part of the castle but the castle is just connected to them through portals? And in that case fusing the castle with another castle wouldn't be that much of a feat, really.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

Not seeing at how at all different Chaos Realm is from Makai/Elysium again in Saint Seiya.

Or the Netherworld universe in Yoroiden Samurai Troopers/Ronin Warriors.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Unless the castle is like the tardis where its bigger on the inside (which you'd have to provide proof of)



I already did a page or so ago, and yes it is bigger on the inside. When Brauner chopped the castle into parts through his paintings we see that each part of the castle is a dimension in said paintings.

As explained by Charlotte he had to use a space/time barrier in order to separate them.

Which also proves that they are bigger on the inside.

Since outside those dimensions they are just paintings that are indestructible.



> doesn't it make more sense to assume those snippets of other dimensions we see aren't actually part of the castle



Despite the fact that we know for a fact that they are, and that the castle is not something that travels through different dimensions? That said dimensions are an extension of the castle.

It already exists in them. 



> but the castle is just connected to them through portals?



Not portals, even when Soma Cruz enters the Chaotic Realm it's by the movement of the moon switching him over to the Chaotic Realm part of the castle through fancy reality warping. As that section is usually closed off.

The Portrait of Ruin part makes it especially explicit that even not including the Chaotic Realm it consists of nine different dimensions.



> And in that case fusing the castle with another castle wouldn't be that much of a feat, really.



It is, and it's even more impressive than before since of we assume half the castle has four or five dimensions and the same for the other since they're equally divided? That means Dracula was fusing four or five dimensions with four or five other ones.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> I already did several pages, and yes it is bigger on the inside. When Brauner chopped the castle into parts through his paintings we see that each part of the castle is a dimension in said paintings.
> 
> As explained by Charlotte he had to use a space/time barrier in order to separate them.
> 
> ...



What method by which did Dracula fuse the two castles? Pure power or a magic hax technique? Fusing things in general tends to fall under the latter (like Crazy Diamond's stand ability). 

And is there proof the dimensions were actually fused rather than the paintings holding the dimensions just being displaced and there then being more dimensions in one fused castle?


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> What method by which did Dracula fuse the two castles? Pure power or a magic hax technique? Fusing things in general tends to fall under the latter (like Crazy Diamond's stand ability).



Dracula's magical powers has nothing in common with Crazy Diamond's restoration/matter manipulation powers.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Fang said:


> Dracula's magical powers has nothing in common with Crazy Diamond's restoration/matter manipulation powers.



I was just using that as an example.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> What method by which did Dracula fuse the two castles? Pure power or a magic hax technique? Fusing things in general tends to fall under the latter (like Crazy Diamond's stand ability).



It would fall under reality warping, and basically Dracula was forcing them together but Maxim was stopping him from completing the process which is why the former was trying to exorcise the latter's spirit.



> And is there proof the dimensions were actually fused rather than the paintings holding the dimensions just being displaced and there then being more dimensions in one fused castle?



The paintings don't exist in Harmony of Dissonance. They are in Portrait of Ruin. So, I am not sure how you got that they fused. We never see the castle, excluding the Chaotic Realm, have more than nine. As for more information here is the script again.

Charlotte: This painting... Its power is incredible!

Jonathan: Must be one of those paintings...

Charlotte: Without a doubt. Hm... I've got it!

Jonathan: Care to share?

Charlotte: This paintings function. Brauner is using it to control the power of this castle!

Jonathan: Well then, let's hurry up and rip it to shreds!

Charlotte: Impossible. Anything we do will be pointless. From what I can tell, based on the theory of curse amplification, this picture is a multilayer quantum-space barrier. A kind of paranormal phenomenon.

Jonathan: Uh, okay... And what does that mean in human language?

Charlotte: ... In short, think of it as a series of walls that surround the magic controlling Dracula's Castle. The painting itself is just the outermost wall. As soon as you break it, it'll regenerate. It's unbreakable.

Jonathan: How convenient. So now what?

Charlotte: I'll align my magic with the painting's so we can enter it. That'll be the best way to circumvent the castle's magic. The risk is quite high though.

Jonathan: No problem. C'mon, what do we have to lose?

Charlotte: Okay then. Here we go.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> It would fall under *reality warping*, and basically Dracula was forcing them together but Maxim was stopping him from completing the process which is why the former was trying to exorcise the latter's spirit.



Alright so not a DC feat.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Alright so not a DC feat.



Why wouldn't fusing four or five dimensions with four or five other dimensions not translate to Dracula's reality warping being multiversal in scope?


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Why wouldn't fusing four or five dimensions with four or five other dimensions not translate to Dracula's reality warping being multiversal in scope?



It's not the same as pure destructive power is what i'm saying. So it wouldn't apply to his regular attacks or his durability.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> It's not the same as pure destructive power is what i'm saying. So it wouldn't apply to his regular attacks or his durability.



Why not? Pretty much everything he does is based off of it. The reality warping comes from his demonic power.



As noted by Dawn of Sorrow's library the castle is the symbol of his dark power.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Why not? Pretty much everything he does is based off of it. The reality warping comes from his demonic power.
> 
> 
> 
> As noted by Dawn of Sorrow's library the castle is the symbol of his dark power.



Now that I think about it the fact that the fusing of the castles was a process (as you mentioned maxim stopped him from completing the process) rather than something he could just instantly do (meaning he had to do it over time) also hurts the feat a bit.

Did Dracula instantly create the castle you say is the symbol of his power or did he also do it over a long period of time? 

And regardless reality warping is hax. There are plenty of characters who have reality warping powers who have durability far less than what they can output with those powers (like Auroleous Izzard from a certain magical index and Haruhi Suzimiya from the anime of the same name). So there's no reason to automatically assume Dracula would have multiversal durability.


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## Dr. White (Feb 21, 2017)

Isn't this similar to the Mundus argument?


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## tivanenk (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> They're not nebulae.
> 
> 
> 
> Unless you want to argue they somehow look like this. Which they don't. Quasars I can't really see them as either since they are lacking a lot of the qualities of one.



You do realize nebulae can look differently, right?



See those smaller nebulae within the NGC 1760 nebula? The bodies within the game look far more similar to them than any galaxy that I have seen. Like this one below.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Now that I think about it the fact that the fusing of the castles was a process (as you mentioned maxim stopped him from completing the process) rather than something he could just instantly do (meaning he had to do it over time) also hurts the feat a bit.



No, it doesn't because Dracula specifically could not finish it because of Maxim was stopping him and it would have been immediately completed the moment he expelled Maxim's spirit. You are ignoring that it only took so long to begin with because of Maxim.The had yet to even fuse beforehand. Which is why it was important for Dracula to get rid of him.



> Did Dracula instantly create the castle you say is the symbol of his power or did he also do it over a long period of time?



Instantly, right after possessing Maxim the two castles were there and just needed to be fused together but Maxim was stopping Dracula from completing the process.



> And regardless reality warping is hax. There are plenty of characters who have reality warping powers who have durability far less than what they can output with those powers (like Auroleous Izzard from a certain magical index and Haruhi Suzimiya from the anime of the same name). So there's no reason to automatically assume Dracula would have multiversal durability.



I was referring more Dracula's regular attacks there than his durability, and people as powerful as himself such as Alucard can beat on him yet still fail to permanently destroy him. Which is what would count towards Dracula's durability, and his endurance. So yeah, it should actually apply to both his firepower and his durability. Unless you want to argue they can't apply this power in their attacks either.



Dr. White said:


> Isn't this similar to the Mundus argument?



No, that was dismissed on the basis of an outlier. This isn't because sixteen different characters can do it, and many of which such as the Time Reaper and Dracula can destroy them too.



tivanenk said:


> You do realize nebulae can look differently, right?



I do, and none of them look anything like galaxies in the Chaotic Realm. By the way, you still haven't addressed my last posts despite all the evidence brought to bear against you. By both myself, and Fang.


That looks nothing like the galaxies we see in the Chaotic Realm, and those are more along the lines of transparent clouds.



> See those smaller nebulae within the NGC 1760 nebula? The bodies within the game look far more similar to them than any galaxy that I have seen. *Like this one below.*



This on the other hand looks _a lot_ like the galaxies in the Chaotic Realm. I have no idea how you reached the conclusion that the former looks more the part. I might as well post more scans to establish why.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Soma Cruz's foray into the Chaotic Realm makes it clear they have stars and galaxies when seen at the right angle. So, it sets the precedent for the other dimensions that we see in the castle. *Unless you want to argue that they are all different in size for some reason*. Just so you know that's never noted. However, neither is the fact they are the same size. You could assume either position there.


That's precisely what I'm trying to argue, and it's not nearly as outlandish as you're trying to make it sound. 
When we see a pocket universe that has a moon, all we can assume is that it is big enough to house a planet + a moon.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> No, it doesn't because Dracula specifically could not finish it because of Maxim was stopping him and it would have been immediately completed the moment he expelled Maxim's spirit. You are ignoring that it only took so long to begin with because of Maxim.The had yet to even fuse beforehand. Which is why it was important for Dracula to get rid of him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This still doesn't sound like something he can do casually, so why would it apply to his regular attacks? And how would surviving attacks from Alucard give him multiversal durability? If you're saying Alucard has multiversal reality warping, then Dracula not dying to it would just be a feat of reality warping hax resistance.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> That's precisely what I'm trying to argue, and it's not nearly as outlandish as you're trying to make it sound.
> When we see a pocket universe that has a moon, all we can assume is that it is big enough to house a planet + a moon.



Say, we use the lowest possible assumptions the castle would still have the universes we see in the Chaotic Realm. Which have many stars, and galaxies. Which means that they're universes. At bare minimum this would mean Dracula was fusing at least two of them together. If you want to go by that instead. Yes, the Chaotic Realm is a part of the castle.

Just as Chaos is.

Taken from Kabuchi no Tsuisoukyoku.

_"The castle is the symbol of the *chaos within humans* and as long as people exist, it will not be completely sealed."_

“_As I’ve said, I would equally gain control over the human world and *the source of Dracula’s power, chaos*. I do not intend to obey someone else’s mind aside from my own. That includes you who were born out of chaos._”

“_If I could control the even heart that is the root of humans……Would *the chaos that is born from them no longer exist*? I have no interest in tranquility but it could be fun to challenge that_.”



xenos5 said:


> This still doesn't sound like something he can do casually, so why would it apply to his regular attacks?



That is something he can accomplish without access to all of his power, as a disembodied spirit when he is weaker than normal, and when he was being stopped by only Maxim's spirit.



> And how would surviving attacks from Alucard give him multiversal durability? If you're saying Alucard has multiversal reality warping, then Dracula not dying to it would just be a feat of reality warping hax resistance.



As I already noted the reality warping is a result of Dracula's demonic power, and Alucard's demonic power is a match for Dracula's as noted throughout the series. He even able to make weapons as powerful as the Alucard Spear which matches the Vampire Killer, and can create dimensions as well as seen in Castlevania: Judgement.

If you are trying to say this is a specific esoteric resistance that nullifies it instead of outright enduring it you are going to have to provide some sort of reference for this.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Say, we use the lowest possible assumptions the castle would still have the universes we see in the Chaotic Realm. Which have many stars, and galaxies. Which means that they're universes. At bare minimum this would mean Dracula was fusing at least two of them together. If you want to go by that instead. Yes, the Chaotic Realm is a part of the castle.
> 
> Just as Chaos is.
> 
> ...



The reality warping being "a result of Dracula's demonic power" doesn't change that reality warping is hax and is separate from a character's destructive capacity. Being able to warp something powerful out of existence is different from being able to destroy it with an energy attack. If you can resist being warped out of existence that's not the same as surviving a powerful energy attack. Basically having the ability to erase/manipulate something powerful =/= having the same strength/power to destroy the same powerful thing and the durability to survive destructive attacks on the level of that erasure.


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## tivanenk (Feb 21, 2017)

It's simple. The celestial bodies have a cloud spreading out from the center, which is a distinct characteristic of a nebula, not a galaxy. When there is a simpler explanation, go for it, instead of attempting to interpret your own way.

And you stated nothing new in your response to me so I don't see why I should bother going through a long post to just repeat the same material.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 21, 2017)

So how big are those universes Dracula fused supposed to be? Is there concrete evidence to suggest that they are properly universe-sized?

And keep in mind that Beerus is casually superior to BoG Goku, who could punch out an attack that is 10x baseline universe even while half dead, so even if those two universes were indeed properly sized, it wouldn't translate into an advantage over Beerus.

Heck, you can spin this thread even further. Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than SSB KKx10 Goku, so you can slap that x10 on top to get 100x baseline universe level.
Plus, he's also superior to SSB Vegito. With the potara fusion being superior to SSJ3, that's a 400x multiplier for good measure, for a total of 4000x baseline universe level.
None of this little math exercise is accepted, but it should be sufficient to show that fucking around with 2 universes ain't cutting it when fighting Beerus.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The reality warping being "a result of Dracula's demonic power" doesn't change that reality warping is hax and is separate from a character's destructive capacity.



We see Dracula destroy the dimensions he creates. Dracula X Chronicles, I have already been over this. He can use it to destroy things.

Destroying a universe wouldn't count as conventional either, since you would be destroying space and time which has nothing to do with firepower.

Yet, we count Beerus as capable of that sort of destructive capacity for it along with many others.

At the point when you're playing with this sort of cosmic power everything stops following any rules.

The laws of physics can only weep.



> Being able to warp something powerful out of existence is different from being able to destroy it with an energy attack.



The demonic power, the energy required for all of this, is being provided by Dracula. It's not coming from nowhere. Dracula freely uses those sorts of attacks too. They're not anymore effective than his reality warping or any less effective.



> If you can resist being warped out of existence that's not the same as surviving a powerful energy attack.



You still haven't provided me a reference, from Castlevania, which says this is a result of an inherent resistance to reality warping.



> Basically having the ability to erase/manipulate something powerful =/= having the same strength/power to destroy the same powerful thing and the durability the survive destructive attacks on the level of that erasure.



Well, except that we do see that when Dracula destroys his dimension in Dracula X Chronicles. When the Time Reaper was going to destroy the time line in Castlevania: Judgement. When Chaos those stars, and galaxies around at much faster than light speeds.


That's not what I was asking for.



tivanenk said:


> It's simple. The celestial bodies have a cloud spreading out from the center, which is a distinct characteristic of a nebula, not a galaxy. When there is a simpler explanation, go for it, instead of attempting to interpret your own way.



It's not simple, really. They look nothing like the galaxies in the Chaotic Realm, and the example you brought up of a galaxy looked exactly like them. How can look at those, and see something entirely different makes me question whether you even know what you're looking at.



> And you stated nothing new in your response to me so I don't see why I should bother going through a long post to just repeat the same material.



I didn't repeat the same material. I used photoshop, used screen captures, drew and pointed out exactly what you weren't looking at and reading and took apart your so called illegible time-line. That you expecting me to take on faith despite the fact it was too tiny to read.

Then there's Fang who straight up brought up a statement from Igarashi confirming that Castlevania: Judgement is canon, and the he personally wants to include the previous "non-canon" games in the timeline.

The time-line you still haven't provided a legible version of. Which is dated anyway, and not an updated version.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> The reality warping being "a result of Dracula's demonic power" doesn't change that reality warping is hax and is separate from a character's destructive capacity. Being able to warp something powerful out of existence is different from being able to destroy it with an energy attack. If you can resist being warped out of existence that's not the same as surviving a powerful energy attack. Basically having the ability to erase/manipulate something powerful =/= having the same strength/power to destroy the same powerful thing and the durability to survive destructive attacks on the level of that erasure.



If Dracula is able to reality warp on a universal+/multi-dimensional scale, that's also part of his destructive capacity.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So how big are those universes Dracula fused supposed to be? Is there concrete evidence to suggest that they are properly universe-sized?



This coming from the side in support of Beerus despite how inconsistent the portrayal the size of the universe is on their side as well, and as I already brought up pages ago:

Aeon refers to these dimensions, such the Time Rift which he created, as alternate universes.

Now are you going to argue that Aeon is somehow the most powerful character in Castlevania despite needing help against the Time Reaper?

When the Time Reaper itself is a scrub next to Galamoth. Who itself is a scrub next to Dracula, and Alucard.



> And keep in mind that Beerus is casually superior to BoG Goku, who could punch out an attack that is 10x baseline universe even while half dead, so even if those two universes were indeed properly sized, it wouldn't translate into an advantage over Beerus.



Yes, it would because only when Beerus is fighting Champa does their combined strength provide enough power to destroy universes six and seven. The fact you're about to use freaking kaioken mutipliers makes me wonder if you at all frequent Comic Vine. I could explain here why that's a load of horseshit but I will save that for the next part of my post.



> Heck, you can spin this thread even further. Beerus is still supposed to be stronger than SSB KKx10 Goku, so you can slap that x10 on top to get 100x baseline universe level.
> Plus, he's also superior to SSB Vegito. With the potara fusion being superior to SSJ3, that's a 400x multiplier for good measure, for a total of 4000x baseline universe level.



The kaioken has always been dismissed in the OBD in regards to calculation stacking or multipliers. It is same in regards to firepower. By the way if what you said was true Beerus would be three-hundred and thirty three times more powerful than Zen'O. That is how outlandish it is when you use it to judge the ability of characters despite how inconsistent it is.

You are going that Beerus is hundreds of times more powerful than the most powerful character in Dragonball Super based on multipliers that are not even properly uniform.

It is even more horseshit than power levels.



> None of this little math exercise is accepted, but it should be sufficient to show that fucking around with 2 universes ain't cutting it when fighting Beerus.



No, it isn't because it's not going to be accepted to begin with. Since if you want to at all claim that, and go by multipliers you have to argue that Beerus is three-hundred and thirty three times more powerful than Zen'O.

Go ahead.

It will be amusing.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Fang said:


> If Dracula is able to reality warp on a universal+/multi-dimensional scale, that's also part of his destructive capacity.



But it wouldn't apply to his durability, right? That's my main point here.

I think we've already established Beerus is faster here with Nighty's post showing Chaos's TK feat isn't in the quadrillions c as once thought. So Beerus would be able to unleash his attacks (energy attacks, punches, kicks etc...) or hax (hakai, sealing hax) before Dracula could react. From what I've seen here I wouldn't say Dracula is completely immune to having his soul destroyed, but highly resistant to it. So if Beerus destroyed Dracula's physical body he may be able to destroy or weaken Dracula's disembodied spirit to the point it can no longer fight by using hakai on it multiple times. Or he could just seal Dracula into an object while Dracula is still in his physical body.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> But it wouldn't apply to his durability, right? That's my main point here.



Why wouldn't it? If he can dish out universe level attacks, Occham's razor would indicate he's likely on the same par durability wise even disregarding how his output is.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> But it wouldn't apply to his durability, right? That's my main point here.
> 
> I think we've already established Beerus is faster here with Nighty's post showing Chaos's TK feat isn't in the quadrillions c as once thought.



Only the one at 3:16+.

The one at 6:34+ hasn't been looked at, and it's much faster than the previous instance.



> So Beerus would be able to unleash his attacks (energy attacks, punches, kicks etc...) or hax (hakai, sealing hax) before Dracula could react. From what I've seen here I wouldn't say Dracula is completely immune to having his soul destroyed, but highly resistant to it. So if Beerus destroyed Dracula's physical body he may be able to destroy or weaken Dracula's disembodied spirit to the point it can no longer fight by using hakai on it multiple times.



If hakai can ignore his durability, and works by preventing someone from existing in the first place through a temporal paradox?

Otherwise, no.



> Or he could just seal Dracula into an object while Dracula is still in his physical body.



Nope, as I clarified Julius Belmont who is multiversal couldn't seal Dracula's castle without help from a priest and even then it put him in a coma and erased his memories.

The castle as I already noted is an extension of Dracula's demonic power.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> This coming from the side in support of Beerus despite how inconsistent the portrayal the size of the universe is on their side as well


Strawman argument. This has nothing to do with consistency. It's a matter of there being apparently no proof that those dimensions were as big as our universe



> Aeon refers to these dimensions, such the Time Rift which he created, as alternate universes.


He could have called them a pink elephant for all it matters. In fiction, there are plenty of universes that are varying in size. A character calling a dimension a universe in no way implies that it is as large as a proper one.



> Yes, it would because only when Beerus is fighting Champa does their combined strength provide enough power to destroy universes six and seven.


1 where was it implied that it would have taken their full strength? All I recall is a statement according to which their fight would have busted both universes, with no mention of anything else
2 we're still not running with low ends here, much less with ones that come from statements. 



> The fact you're about to use freaking kaioken mutipliers makes me wonder if you at all frequent Comic Vine.


If that's supposed to be an insult, it's lost on me because I neither frequent nor care about what Comic Vine is. 



> The kaioken has always been dismissed in the OBD


Worthless reply, because I myself have admitted as much. All this was supposed to illustrate is that Beerus is far deeper into universe level than even the high ends of Dracula's feats would imply. 



> By the way if what you said was true Beerus would be three-hundred and thirty three times more powerful than Zen'O.


Except that's not true at all. It was never implied that busting 12 universes was Zeno's maximum. If Beerus was 4000 times universe level (which, again, I'm not even claiming), then all that means is that Zeno is significantly higher than that. 



> That is how outlandish it is when you use it to judge the ability of characters despite how inconsistent it is.


That, coming from someone who is arguing for a series where planet and beyond level characters are bashing each other with store-bought knives, whips and axes. Every damn verse has inconsistencies and contrivances like this, so bringing them up against one verse in particular is beyond asinine.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Dr. White (Feb 21, 2017)

@Soma Cruz 
I was referring to reality warping not being equatable to DC. Mundus is Island level for propogating his own clouds that he created but he doesn't get galactic stuff despite us seeing stars off in the distance, and the fact that mundus castle similarly creates pockets dimension (one even has an alternate mundus island with a different sun) antics. Not seeing how it would be an outlier given all the stuff around Mundus hype, but that point was besides mine.


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> If hakai can ignore his durability, and works by preventing someone from existing in the first place through a temporal paradox?
> 
> Otherwise, no.



Hasn't his spirit had to go dormant for many years before? Or does he just choose to sit and do nothing as a spirit for a long time when he still has the power to mess with shit? I think his spirit can be weakened if not destroyed. If Beerus weakens his spirit with multiple hakais to the point it has to go dormant that would be a win for Beerus (since it'd be BFR). 



Soma Cruz said:


> Nope, as I clarified Julius Belmont who is multiversal couldn't seal Dracula's castle without help from a priest and even then it put him in a coma and erased his memories.
> 
> The castle as I already noted is an extension of Dracula's demonic power.



Multiversal reality warping =/= multiversal sealing hax. Different types of hax require feats of their own to show their potency. Beerus's sealing hax is more potent than sealing hax (Mafuba) that can seal a universe level + character who had extremely high range teleportation (Zamasu). 

And honestly I don't get how Dracula himself can't just be sealed without having to seal his castle. I don't buy it. His castle being an extension of his power shouldn't mean he can't be sealed off from that extension. Its not actually a part of him, it sounds like its just something he can take power from and may be spiritually connected to.


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Strawman argument. This has nothing to do with consistency. It's a matter of there being apparently no proof that those dimensions were as big as our universe



As I already noted, even Aeon's Time-Rift is noted to be an alternate universe. Who is a scrub next to these characters we are talking about right now. I can post the video, yet again.


As seen here, and the time-frame is already there.



> He could have called them a pink elephant for all it matters. In fiction, there are plenty of universes that are varying in size. A character calling a dimension a universe in no way implies that it is as large as a proper one.



Alright then, since all we have going for Beerus is the narration saying that he could destroy the universe that means he can't actually do so. After all, we never see him go through with it. It's obviously something limited to only Zen'O.

They top out at universal, and that's only with Zen'O.

Hint: This is sarcasm.



> 1 where was it implied that it would have taken their full strength? All I recall is a statement according to which their fight would have busted both universes, with no mention of anything else



A) Where is any of your supposed evidence that Beerus can accomplish on his own, and without letting loose against someone of similar strength such as Champa. It's made explicit they need to actually let loose to being with for this happen.



> 2 we're still not running with low ends here, much less with ones that come from statements.



B) Yet, you're happy to do so in regards to Castlevania while at the same utilizing the kaioken multiplier in order to determine their power levels.



> If that's supposed to be an insult, it's lost on me because I neither frequent nor care about what Comic Vine is.



That's strange because you debate a lot like someone who frequents the site. Oh wait, you frequent Screw Attack.



That's even better.



> Worthless reply, because I myself have admitted as much. All this was supposed to illustrate is that Beerus is far deeper into universe level than even the high ends of Dracula's feats would imply.



No, it does not work that way. You can't use something when you yourself admit that it is unusable. This is like saying "Okay, I murdered this guy but I didn't actually murder him you can trust me. That bloody knife in my hands is just a figment of your imagination."

It does not illustrate anything of the sort.

If anything it showcases how unreliable it is to use multipliers, and stacking.



> Except that's not true at all. It was never implied that busting 12 universes was Zeno's maximum. If Beerus was 4000 times universe level (which, again, I'm not even claiming), then all that means is that Zeno is significantly higher than that.



Zen'O does not have anything higher than this, and yet you have the nerve to says the actual extent of his abilities is hundreds of times what is stated. Not only that, you are claiming this despite the fact that comes from the narration too. Jesus Christ, you should go back to your Death Battle.

It suits you more than this.



> That, coming from someone who is arguing for a series where planet and beyond level characters are bashing each other with store-bought knives, whips and axes.



This coming from a guy who is in support of a series where some of the most powerful characters can be hurt by ring lasers. That's some nice water you're treading there.


My favorite fact is that many of those weapons are not normal, and only the weakest weapons are conventional arms. We have mythical legendary weapons like Excalibur, and whips empowered by spirits through ritual sacrifice.



> Every damn verse has inconsistencies and contrivances like this, so bringing them up against one verse in particular is beyond asinine.



Despite the fact you are doing as such here, and not holding the same standard of evidence you do to Dragonball Super as you do to Castlevania. Nice try but you're no one to talk.



xenos5 said:


> Hasn't his spirit had to go dormant for many years before?



Already noted this already. It was still active right after Dracula was destroyed by Simon Belmont. When he cursed Simon Belmont after he was defeated by him.



> Or does he just choose to sit and do nothing as a spirit for a long time when he still has the power to mess with shit? I think his spirit can be weakened if not destroyed. If Beerus weakens his spirit with multiple hakais to the point it has to go dormant that would be a win for Beerus (since it'd be BFR).



As I already noted that is not the case, and that's if Beerus can somehow see and get a hold of it when Alucard couldn't. When Yoko Belnades couldn't. When the church couldn't. When numerous cults couldn't. This when it was severed from Chaos, and weaker than normal. How far has Beerus actually sensed something? Can he detect things in other universes?



> Multiversal reality warping =/= multiversal sealing hax. Different types of hax require feats of their own to show their potency. Beerus's sealing hax is more potent than sealing hax (Mafuba) that can seal a universe level + character who had extremely high range teleportation (Zamasu).



Julius Belmont's sealing could contain Dracula's castle in another dimension even no one else could, and even when they had access to people such as Alucard. Who was still active during this time, and likely working alongside the church. As Yoko Belnades was familiar with him in Aria of Sorrow.

That was with help from a priest, and even then it erased his memories before he lapsed into a coma.



> And honestly I don't get how Dracula himself can't just be sealed without having to seal his castle. I don't buy it. His castle being an extension of his power shouldn't mean he can't be sealed off from that extension. Its not actually a part of him, it sounds like its just something he can take power from and may be spiritually connected to.



It is a major plot point that in order for people to stop Dracula and keep him from coming back you need to seal his castle. If you don't he finds a way back no matter what, and becomes the Dark Lord once more. It is representative of his demonic power, and that means it's going to be as difficult to seal him as the castle is. Dracula is as dangerous as the castle itself because it is the representation of his demonic power.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## xenos5 (Feb 21, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Already noted this already. It was still active right after Dracula was destroyed by Simon Belmont. When he cursed Simon Belmont after he was defeated by him.



So are you claiming his spirit never goes dormant? Why doesn't he just always resurrect immediately then? 



Soma Cruz said:


> As I already noted that is not the case, and that's if Beerus can somehow see and get a hold of it when Alucard couldn't. When Yoko Belnades couldn't. When the church couldn't. When numerous cults couldn't. This when it was severed from Chaos, and weaker than normal. How far has Beerus actually sensed something? Can he detect things in other universes?



If Dracula's spirit wants to attack Beerus he'll have to be in the same realm as him (unless you can provide evidence Dracula's spirit can attack from the afterlife). And Beerus would be able to react before Dracula's spirit could use any attacks due to his speed advantage. Beerus could then seal the spirit into an object or use hakai on it multiple times to the point its weakened even further and has to go dormant. 



Soma Cruz said:


> Julius Belmont's sealing could contain Dracula's castle in another dimension even no one else could, and even when they had access to people such as Alucard. Who was still active during this time, and likely working alongside the church. As Yoko Belnades was familiar with him in Aria of Sorrow.
> 
> That was with help from a priest, and even then it erased his memories before he lapsed into a coma.
> 
> It is a major plot point that in order for people to stop Dracula and keep him from coming back you need to seal his castle. If you don't he finds a way back no matter, and becomes the Dark Lord once more. It is representative of his demonic power, and that means it's going to be as difficult to seal him and the castle is. Dracula is as dangerous as the castle itself because it is the representation of his demonic power.



Can you explain how would Dracula escape from being sealed into an object just because of his castle not being sealed? And if he was able to escape how would it not take such a long amount of time that it would be considered BFR? Hell, is this fight even taking place in Dracula's castle? iirc the default OBD assumption for a setting when the setting isn't listed in the OP is the hyperbolic time chamber. When Dracula's that far away from his castle wouldn't his connection to it be extremely weak?


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## Atem (Feb 21, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> So are you claiming his spirit never goes dormant? Why doesn't he just always resurrect immediately then?



Usually because a physical resurrection takes a long time. If he is not possessing someone or forcing someone to quicken his resurrection. As seen when he possesses Barlowe, and Maxim. As well as when he cursed Simon Belmont.



> If Dracula's spirit wants to attack Beerus he'll have to be in the same realm as him (unless you can provide evidence Dracula's spirit can attack from the afterlife).



Dracula's wraith could fight Juste Belmont, and as we see in Aria of Sorrow even the Kyoma Demon could attack from out of its mirror dimension. When Soma Cruz absorbs its soul he doesn't even need to uses mirror. He can remain in the mirror dimension whilst attack from it. Acting as sort of cross-dimensional intangibility. 

Which is relevant as we know all demons the castle get their demonic power from either Dracula, or one of his Devil Forgemasters. Who are bequeathed with some of his demonic power to begin with. 



> And Beerus would be able to react before Dracula's spirit could use any attacks due to his speed advantage. Beerus could then seal the spirit into an object or use hakai on it multiple times to the point its weakened even further and has to go dormant.



Once again, I doubt it will work against Dracula when it took Julius Belmont and another person to seal his demonic power. What's the best Beerus has actually sealed with the Z-Sword? Since I am not seeing much besides Old Kai. As I mentioned above Dracula should be able to attack from the mirror dimension and as we know from Soma Cruz it behaves like cross-dimensional intangibility. 



> Can you explain how would Dracula escape from being sealed into an object just because of his castle not being sealed?



Due to the fact that in order seal him you must compete with his demonic power. This is why they didn't just seal Dracula or trap him in some way. Since he would have just escaped. You have to seal his demonic power before you can seal him.



> And if he was able to escape how would it not take such a long amount of time that it would be considered BFR? Hell, is this fight even taking place in Dracula's castle? iirc the default OBD assumption for a setting when the setting isn't listed in the OP is the hyperbolic time chamber. When Dracula's that far away from his castle wouldn't his connection to it be extremely weak?



No, when Julius Belmont sealed the castle he sent it into a different dimension within the eclipse. Dracula doesn't need to be near the castle to exercise his demonic powers. It can be far away, and the most it has to be in order for it be severed is for it to be sent into another dimension. Which I am not sure how Beerus could do exactly unless he teleports it into another universe. 

Despite that, even if it was that easy Brauner separated it into different dimensions and he could still siphon its demonic power from outside his quantum barriers. Which means whatever Julius Belmont did at the Hakuba Shrine with that priest was even more thorough than whatever Brauner did in separating the castle from reality. 

As for the purposes of this match the castle is in the same universe as the one they are fighting inside of.


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## Montanz (Feb 21, 2017)

Fang said:


> Not seeing at how at all different Chaos Realm is from Makai/Elysium again in Saint Seiya.
> 
> Or the Netherworld universe in Yoroiden Samurai Troopers/Ronin Warriors.



Elysium for one is stated to be infinite, hell doesn't have any references to its size as far as I know but we know the hyperdimension that connects both contains at least billions of 'lights' /galaxies in context so it's not a stretch to say they're universe sized.


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

Montanz said:


> Elysium for one is stated to be infinite



Wrong. That has literally never been stated or claimed.



> hell doesn't have any references to its size as far as I know



Wrong. Each prison in Makai is light-years in size as well as light-years apart.



> but we know the hyperdimension that connects both contains at least billions of 'lights' /galaxies in context so it's not a stretch to say they're universe sized.



Wrong again.  Hades' Super Dimension is no different from Dracula's universe, so they completely match to the t more or less other then Hades being much larger.


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## Montanz (Feb 21, 2017)

Fang said:


> Wrong. That has literally never been stated or claimed.



The narrator refers to the elysian as an "endless meadow"/pradera sin fin, How is that anything but a reference towards it being infinite in size?
though I'll concede on  basis it may just have been narrative hyperbole.



Fang said:


> Wrong. Each prison in Makai is light-years in size as well as light-years apart.


That's neat, I didn't know that.



Fang said:


> Wrong again.


You yourself admit they're different in size, and the basis for the hyperdimension being considered an universe/large universe is the fact that, while traveling in a straight line, the saints managed to cross at least billions of galaxies as far as I can tell dracula's dimension don't have anything to indicate they'd be even as large as  a single universe that contains 100s billions of them


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## Fang (Feb 21, 2017)

Montanz said:


> The narrator refers to the elysian as an "endless meadow"/pradera sin fin, How is that anything but a reference towards it being infinite in size?
> 
> though I'll concede on  basis it may just have been narrative hyperbole.



Narration from the same omniscient source tells us its populated with billions upon billions of galaxies, quasars, and black holes in actual detail. So clearly not "infinite", just far larger and expansive then the real observable universe.



> You yourself admit they're different in size



Yes. I stated that repeatedly now.



> and the basis for the hyperdimension



Super Dimension.



> being considered an universe/large universe is the fact that, while traveling in a straight line, the saints managed to cross at least billions of galaxies as far as I can tell dracula's dimension don't have anything to indicate they'd be even as large as  a single universe that contains 100s billions of them



So you're claiming that because Hades private dimension being a far larger universe then a normal one somehow precludes a notion that despite Dracula's dimension containing a large number galaxies, stars, planets, moons, and other normal celestial bodies it isn't a universe simply because its smaller then Hades? 

No, that doesn't dismiss his feat of creating and maintaining his own private universe. It just paints a picture that Dracula's is inferior in scale to Hades' own. And Occham's Razor would have us take this input of data and tell us its some type of universe. 

Let me put it this way also regarding "size" , we have dwarf galaxies in the real universe that are much smaller then normal types. We even have a pair of them in Star Wars orbiting around the main galaxy (GFFA) in canon. The worst case scenario is Dracula has a pocket universe. In Episode G, Iapetos can create dimensional rifts that are actually miniature universes as observed containing their own stars, galaxies, and space-time.

Its no different here.

And Dracula getting powerscaling from weaker characters who are already universal level doesn't hurt his feat, only bolster it.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Usually because a physical resurrection takes a long time. If he is not possessing someone or forcing someone to quicken his resurrection. As seen when he possesses Barlowe, and Maxim. As well as when he cursed Simon Belmont.
> 
> Dracula's wraith could fight Juste Belmont, and as we see in Aria of Sorrow even the Kyoma Demon could attack from out of its mirror dimension. When Soma Cruz absorbs its soul he doesn't even need to uses mirror. He can remain in the mirror dimension whilst attack from it. Acting as sort of cross-dimensional intangibility.
> 
> ...



Some of this is a bit confusing (probably because i'm not too familiar with castlevania) so i'll just address part of it and try to boil this down to one argument. If Beerus destroys Dracula's physical body I think Beerus would assume the fight is over and leave. He would be too fast for Dracula's spirit to follow him and would go to a place Dracula is completely unfamiliar with (Beerus's planet which is galaxies away from Earth). The question would be who would we class that as a win for? I think it would be classed as a win for Beerus for destroying Dracula's physical body but I guess you could argue it as a win for Dracula as Beerus leaving the area may essentially be unknowingly BFRing himself.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Some of this is a bit confusing (probably because i'm not too familiar with castlevania) so i'll just address part of it and try to boil this down to one argument. If Beerus destroys Dracula's physical body I think Beerus would assume the fight is over and leave.He would be too fast for Dracula's spirit to follow him and would go to a place Dracula is completely unfamiliar with (Beerus's planet which is galaxies away from Earth). The question would be who would we class that as a win for? I think it would be classed as a win for Beerus for destroying Dracula's physical body but I guess you could argue it as a win for Dracula as Beerus leaving the area may essentially be unknowingly BFRing himself.



Going to another galaxy is not enough. Beerus could go to another dimension or universe and he would still be able chase after him. As seen in Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance when even as a wraith possessing Maxim he could do this. Helps that he can teleport too. Dracula's sensory abilities should be as advanced as Alucard's who can detect Chaos and its intentions even when it is in the Chaotic Realm. When he stopped it from completely possessing Soma Cruz.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Going to another galaxy is not enough. Beerus could go to another dimension or universe and he would still be able chase after him. As seen in Castlevania: Harmony of Dissonance when even as a wraith possessing Maxim he could do this. Helps that he can teleport too. Dracula's sensory abilities should be as advanced as Alucard's who can detect Chaos and its intentions even when it is in the Chaotic Realm. When he stopped it from completely possessing Soma Cruz.



If Dracula's teleportation hasn't shown multi-galactic range he'll have to traverse the vaccum of space to reach Beerus. Beerus's planet is like half the universe away from Earth distance-wise. Despite being somewhere in the MFTL range Dracula is much slower than Beerus so it would take him much longer to reach the planet. Honestly if it takes hours or days for him to reach Beerus i'd say the fight should be considered over and Beerus the victor.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> If Dracula's teleportation hasn't shown multi-galactic range he'll have to traverse the vaccum of space to reach Beerus. Beerus's planet is like half the universe away from Earth distance-wise. Despite being somewhere in the MFTL range Dracula is much slower than Beerus so it would take him much longer to reach the planet. Honestly if it takes hours or days for him to reach Beerus i'd say the fight should be considered over and Beerus the victor.



As I already noted Dracula could freely travel between reality, and the dimension that contained the other half of his castle. The range of his teleportation should be multiversal. Heck, even Aeon could apparate numerous people from their respective periods of time to his Time Rift. Chances are Dracula doesn't even need to fly or teleport there. He could simply apparate Beerus back to him. Unless Beerus also has defenses against being teleported?


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> As I already noted Dracula could freely travel between reality, and the dimension that contained the other half of his castle. The range of his teleportation should be multiversal. Heck, even Aeon could apparate numerous people from their respective periods of time to his Time Rift. Chances are Dracula doesn't even need to fly or teleport there. He could simply apparate Beerus back to him. Unless Beerus also has defenses against being teleported?



Beerus could pretty much take a hit and run strategy here and make this a battle of attrition. He hakais Dracula flys away before he can attack back (which would be viable with his massive speed advantage basically making Dracula a statue to him), Dracula either teleports Beerus to him or teleports to Beerus, same thing happens. Beerus would be the only one getting in attacks here so he's less likely to run out of stamina/energy. I don't think Dracula's spirit could tank millions of spirit destroying attacks and not be weakened or start running low on power to the point it could no longer fight (Beerus can use it as much as he wants as nothing indicates its a draining technique, it actually seems quite casual for him) so I think this would eventually net Beerus a win. He would be the only one getting in attacks and even if Dracula's soul isn't destroyed through this strategy if its weakened to the point it can no longer fight it's essentially been incapacitated. 

Beerus probably wouldn't do this in character but since he's bloodlusted CIS is ignored and Beerus would take the best strategy available to him.


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## Montanz (Feb 22, 2017)

Fang said:


> So you're claiming that because Hades private dimension being a far larger universe then a normal one somehow precludes a notion that despite Dracula's dimension containing a large number galaxies, stars, planets, moons, and other normal celestial bodies it isn't a universe simply because its smaller then Hades?


No, hades' dimension from one end to another has billions of galaxies, in order for such distance to exist within it the thing has to be larger than our universe.
even ignoring the fact that the galaxies were lined up they're we still know that at least tens of billions of them can comfortably fit inside it so it's not a stretch to assume it is a full blown universe.

That isn't the case for Dracula's dimension here as we don't have such frames of reference to estimate its size.



Fang said:


> No, that doesn't dismiss his feat of creating and maintaining his own private universe. It just paints a picture that Dracula's is inferior in scale to Hades' own. And Occham's Razor would have us take this input of data and tell us its some type of universe.



I'm not trying dismiss the feat, my point is that there is not enough evidence to assume it would constitute an universal feat per OBD standards

Occam's razor would force us to assume the thing, from the inside, is only large enough to accomodate the number of galaxies we know for certain exist within it, in this case the number is limited to the ones we can see, any more beyond that requires more assumptions.

Pocket dimension or not most people still agree on a certain way to rate those feats
ie:
Create/Destroy a dimension containing a  planet=planet level
a star= star level, multiple stars= multi-star system, a galaxy = galaxy level and so on.




Fang said:


> And Dracula getting powerscaling from weaker characters who are already universal level doesn't hurt his feat, only bolster it.



Powerscaling by itself doesn't make individual feats stronger, though it can still open the door for different interpretations of it given the right circumstances.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Beerus could pretty much take a hit and run strategy here and make this a battle of attrition. He hakais Dracula flys away before he can attack back (which would be viable with his massive speed advantage basically making Dracula a statue to him), Dracula either teleports Beerus to him or teleports to Beerus, same thing happens. Beerus would be the only one getting in attacks here so he's less likely to run out of stamina/energy. I don't think Dracula's spirit could tank millions of spirit destroying attacks and not be weakened or start running low on power to the point it could no longer fight (Beerus can use it as much as he wants as nothing indicates its a draining technique, it actually seems quite casual for him) so I think this would eventually net Beerus a win. He would be the only one getting in attacks and even if Dracula's soul isn't destroyed through this strategy if its weakened to the point it can no longer fight it's essentially been incapacitated.
> 
> Beerus probably wouldn't do this in character but since he's bloodlusted CIS is ignored and Beerus would take the best strategy available to him.



We still haven't reviewed the other instance of galaxy throwing so it might not be quite as disparaging as that. Just for reference the frame-rate is 30 fps.



Now for how fast they are.

Taken frame by frame.





So, they're moving about their length in 1/30 of a second.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> We still haven't reviewed the other instance of galaxy throwing so it might not be quite as disparaging as it is as that. Just for reference the frame-rate is 30 fps.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for this. I've been trying to get a calc for that. Should 10,000 light years work as a low-end on the basis that most galaxies are that size? I could do a high-end where they're the size of the Milky Way too.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Thanks for this. I've been trying to get a calc for that. Should 10,000 light years work as a low-end on the basis that most galaxies are that size? I could do a high-end where they're the size of the Milky Way too.



If we used the Milky Way Galaxy it would be 100,000 light years but I am not sure what the assumption should be here.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> If we used the Milky Way Galaxy it would be 100,000 light years but I am not sure what the assumption should be here.


I worked with both and got anywhere between 9 trillion to 94 trillion c's.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I worked with both and got anywhere between 9 trillion to 94 trillion c's.



Just keep in mind not all of them are the same size. There are some that are much, much larger than those ones such as the ones we see here which disappear in six frames.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

@Soma Cruz Eh. Even the low quadrillions c are still an order of magnitude above the trillions c (and 94 trillion c isn't in the high trillions). So I don't think Blakk Jakk's calc changes that Beerus's speed advantage is enough to where Dracula should be a statue to him.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> @Soma Cruz Eh. Even the low quadrillions c are still an order of magnitude above the trillions c (and 94 trillion c isn't in the high trillions). So I don't think Blakk Jakk's calc changes that Beerus's speed advantage is enough to where Dracula should be a statue to him.


Keep in mind my calc isn't definitive and I didn't account for the other galaxies either like Gwyn is suggesting I do.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> Aight.



Personally, I got  3.15350947 × 10^21 m / s for ten thousand light years in 0.03 seconds. 

3.15350947 × 10^22 m / s for a hundred thousand light years in 0.03 seconds.


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Personally, I got  3.15350947 × 10^21 m / s for ten thousand light years in 0.03 seconds.
> 
> 3.15350947 × 10^22 m / s for a hundred thousand light years in 0.03 seconds.


That's actually not too bad. 10 trillion to 105 trillion c's. Unforfunately to try and get a proper speed for the larger galaxies would take pixel scaling and I'm no good at that. I could try later but no promises are made.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

So, using Aeon's time rift as the average and just for further evidence that he did create it we see him do so in Castlevania: Judgement's opening. 


Also, again here is Aeon's statement about his time rift. Where he calls it an alternate universe.


That should mean the dimensions in Dracula's castle should be alternate universes as well, and there's nine not including the Chaotic Realm. Which means that while Beerus has the speed advantage we know Dracula has the firepower and durability advantage. 

A considerable one.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> So, using Aeon's time rift as the average and just for further evidence that he did create it we see him do so in Castlevania: Judgement's opening.
> 
> 
> Also, again here is Aeon's statement about his time rift. Where he calls it an alternate universe.
> ...



I already went over how I view reality warping hax as separate from pure stats. Dracula being universe level in durability is the highest i'm willing to accept with the evidence i've seen.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Gotta get some sleep for now. Will respond to any further arguments tomorrow.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I already went over how I view reality warping hax as separate from pure stats. Dracula being universe level in durability is the highest i'm willing to accept with the evidence i've seen.



I already went over how it applies to more than just reality warping, that when we're dealing when with cosmic power of this scale nothing is following the laws of physics, which includes Beerus here, and Fang also noted how it applies as well.

Alucard could beat on Dracula, and his spirit still ends up surviving. Despite Alucard being as powerful as he is.

This is not some specific esoteric resistance to reality warping, and you haven't cited the reference for it from Castlevania.


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## xenos5 (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> I already went over how it applies to more than just reality warping, that when we're dealing when with cosmic power of this scale nothing is following the laws of physics, which includes Beerus here, and Fang also noted how it applies as well.
> 
> Alucard could beat on Dracula, and his spirit still ends up surviving. Despite Alucard being as powerful as he is.



I'm sorry but I don't get how this could ever apply to durability. Hax is hax. Having a greater potency of hax isn't exactly a complete substitute for pure power and durability. And reality warping hax is different from soul hax. You mentioned vampire killer destroys souls so I guess you could put it on the same level as hakai but I doubt any of the belmonts have fought Dracula's disembodied spirit and whipped it thousands or millions of times to try to weaken it so it can no longer fight so I don't see what reason there would be to assume that wouldn't work. 



Soma Cruz said:


> This is not some specific esoteric resistance to reality warping, and you haven't cited the reference for it from Castlevania.



Reality warping hax resistance is all surviving reality warping hax gives you. I don't need to cite a reference to it in Castlevania because thats just a general fact. If they're using regular physical attacks and energy attacks that's different from the reality warping hax than you can show the best feats they have for those types of attacks and the best ones Dracula has tanked to determine his durability.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Feb 22, 2017)

Beerus destroys Dracula with a normal punch.
The dog don't need Hakai for somebody like Drac.

Reactions: Dislike 4


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

xenos5 said:


> I'm sorry but I don't get how this could ever apply to durability. Hax is hax. Having a greater potency of hax isn't exactly a complete substitute for pure power and durability.



This is like saying Beerus, and Goku's punches don't count towards power and durability because we clearly see that the shockwaves caused by their punches don't behave as they should. They reach into outer space, destroy specific things instead of everything in their way, and only destroy specific suns and planets by making some planets disperse into dust and suns go supernova.

This would be the same as arguing because of that; the fact Beerus, and Goku survived is because of a specific esoteric resistance against these reality warping shockwaves.

At this point power, and durability by its very nature is reality warping.



> And reality warping hax is different from soul hax. You mentioned vampire killer destroys souls so I guess you could put it on the same level as hakai but I doubt any of the belmonts have fought Dracula's disembodied spirit and whipped it thousands or millions of times to try to weaken it so it can no longer fight so I don't see what reason there would be to assume that wouldn't work.



As well as being able to hurt, and destroy abstracts representative of things such as hatred and negative emotions. There's destroying elementals on top of that but it's not as impressive. We see Juste Belmont fight Maxim Kischine. The only way Juste can defeat Maxim without destroying him is if Dracula partially resurrects using pieces of his corpse. Which Juste Belmont can collect. As the Vampire Killer isn't able to do anything to Dracula despite being able to destroy ghosts, and abstracts. There literally is an instance where Juste is forced to destroy Maxim since he can't force Dracula's spirit out with the Vampire Killer by itself. In one of the less than happy endings of Harmony of Dissonance.



> Reality warping hax resistance is all surviving reality warping hax gives you. I don't need to cite a reference to it in Castlevania because thats just a general fact. If they're using regular physical attacks and energy attacks that's different from the reality warping hax than you can show the best feats they have for those types of attacks and the best ones Dracula has tanked to determine his durability.



As I already clarified everything Dracula is capable of is as a result of his demonic power. Including fusing these castles together, and creating these different dimensions. Also, destroying them as we see in Dracula X Chronicles. You need to cite a reference because you are claiming that by some esoteric resistance they are able to endure these things, and that they only apply to specifically everything that Dracula can do.  As if they have selective durability against only specifically him for no reason.


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## Toaa (Feb 22, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> This is like saying Beerus, and Goku's punches don't count towards power and durability because we clearly see that the shockwaves caused by their punches don't behave as they should. They reach into outer space, destroy specific things instead of everything in their way, and only destroy specific suns and planets by making some planets disperse into dust and suns go supernova.
> 
> This would be the same as arguing because of that; the fact Beerus, and Goku survived is because of a specific esoteric resistance against these reality warping shockwaves.
> 
> ...


What xeno means is that resisting a transmutation feat from someone who can normally destroy universes does not make you universal in durability.You just have resistance to transmutation.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Toaa said:


> What xeno means is that resisting a transmutation feat from someone who can normally destroy universes does not make you universal in durability.You just have resistance to transmutation.



This isn't transmutation.

Nor does Dracula employ transmutation as his only method of attack. 

He punches, kicks, launches fireballs, uses hellfire, launches dark energy, teleports, creates black holes, creates stars, uses soul steal, blasts you, creates dimensions, destroys dimensions, transforms into giant monsters and tries to squish you, uses telekinesis, and tries to feed you to his demons. He throws everything, and the kitchen sink at you.

His reality warping comes from his demonic power which he applies in a variety of ways.


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## Fang (Feb 22, 2017)

Montanz said:


> No, hades' dimension from one end to another has billions of galaxies, in order for such distance to exist within it the thing has to be larger than our universe.
> even ignoring the fact that the galaxies were lined up they're we still know that at least tens of billions of them can comfortably fit inside it so it's not a stretch to assume it is a full blown universe.



Wrong. We know its a universe because its filled with more galaxies and celestial bodies then our own universe. Its that simple. That's our policy in the OBD.



> That isn't the case for Dracula's dimension here as we don't have such frames of reference to estimate its size.



>made up of its own time-space
>filled with stars
>filled with galaxies

It fits the criteria to the t.



> I'm not trying dismiss the feat, my point is that there is not enough evidence to assume it would constitute an universal feat per OBD standards



Except it does meet the criteria for being a universe. Its a realm maintained by Dracula's power, its populated with stars and galaxies, nebula, moons, and can't last without Dracula's power, just like with Chaos kun.



> Occam's razor would force us to assume the thing, from the inside, is only large enough to accomodate the number of galaxies we know for certain exist within it, in this case the number is limited to the ones we can see, any more beyond that requires more assumptions.



That's not how Occam's Razor works at all. You are misusing it completely. We are only directly shown in Hades Super Dimension feat dozens of galaxies visually, do you expect Kurumada to literally draw billions upon billions of galaxies, quasars, stars, and black holes to illustrate his authorial intent that it is a very large universe?

No.

It is literally no different other then the fact can be drawn that its not as large as Hades' Super Dimension as far as universe goes. 



> P[ocket dimension or not most people still agree on a certain way to rate those feats
> ie:
> Create/Destroy a dimension containing a  planet=planet level
> a star= star level, multiple stars= multi-star system, a galaxy = galaxy level and so on.



Your argument isn't flying because there's no indication its not a type of universe because it already fulfills all the requirements to be some type of personal universe that Dracula maintains which I and Gywn/Soma have gone over in detail repeatedly in the thread.



> Powerscaling by itself doesn't make individual feats stronger, though it can still open the door for different interpretations of it given the right circumstances.



Powerscaling validates the feat.

Right now you are trying to downplay the feat by arguing with me of all people on comparing it with Saint Seiya, a material we both know I know far more then you and which you completely bongled from the start by trying to cherrypick a hyperbolic statement by claiming the Super Dimension being infinite.

Its a universe. The fact that Dracula is above someone who can also erase timelines and destroy reality bolsters the argument supporting Dracula's feat.

And again it meets all the physical requirements to be a universe: numerous moons, planets, stars, galaxies, nebula, inhabit it, its generated and created by Dracula's power, and there is no indication is any less then a form or type of personal universe. I even gave you another pointed example in Saint Seiya of Dimensional Iapetos creating pocket universes filled with dimensional rifts inhabited with stars and galaxies, Dracula's feat is more impressive then what 2-sealed Iapetos does. Move on.


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## Agent9149 (Feb 22, 2017)

Fang said:


> Except it does meet the criteria for being a universe. Its a realm maintained by Dracula's power, its populated with stars and galaxies, nebula, moons, and can't last without Dracula's power, just like with Chaos kun.



I was told that by OBD standards that such a thing as maintaining a universe doesn't constitute as universal level DC. I think that's what Montantaz is trying to come across with


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## Fang (Feb 22, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I was told that by OBD standards that such a thing as maintaining a universe doesn't constitute as universal level DC. I think that's what Montantaz is trying to come across with



He's wrong then.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 22, 2017)

@saint rider 890 has been removed from this thread, don't respond to any of his posts from earlier pages


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## Fang (Feb 22, 2017)

He's been removed? What does that mean?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 22, 2017)

can't post in this thread anymore


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

So, what's the consensus considering Beerus and his superior speed. As well as Dracula's superior firepower, and survivability? 

Does it give Dracula the victory, or is the difference in speed still too much?


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Going to bring this up since since it's relevant.



Soma Cruz said:


> Also, looking over the translation of *Akumajou Dracula: Kabuchi no Tsuisoukyoku*.
> 
> Some more confirmation that Soma Cruz _is_ Dracula, and retained his memories as Dracula. Also, it's noted that Death could come back from being erased from existence. As well as Soma Cruz's extra-sensory abilities.
> *
> ...



So far, this reveals that:

A) Soma Cruz is without the shadow of any doubt Dracula, and retains his memories as Dracula.

B) The power of dominance can be used to erase things from existence.

C) Death was erased from existence with the power of dominance. 

D) Death came back from being erased from existence.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Feb 22, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I was told that by OBD standards that such a thing as maintaining a universe doesn't constitute as universal level DC. I think that's what Montantaz is trying to come across with



Who told you something that disingenuous?

We've used that as valid criteria for years now *shrugs*

Well before I ever started posting even

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

So, as far to who that regeneration applies to:

1) Definitely Chaos, and we know even after Soma Cruz destroys it that it comes back. So, it can definitely respawn from being erased from existence.

2) Dracula as he is notably the hardest thing to put down in Castlevania, and is protected by Chaos who forces him to come back and become the Dark Lord.

3) Most likely Alucard as he is able to match his father's demonic power even when he is the Dark Lord. 

4) Soma Cruz as he is more powerful than he was as Dracula, and the Dark Lord. He fought and destroyed Chaos. Then as of Dawn of Sorrow he absorbs a calamitous demon, and Alucard's demonic power on top of that.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Oh, and pretty much all of the bosses from Dawn of Sorrow.

Since Soma Cruz, and Alucard can't destroy them without sealing their regeneration first.


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## Montanz (Feb 22, 2017)

Fang said:


> Wrong. We know its a universe because its filled with more galaxies and celestial bodies then our own universe. Its that simple. That's our policy in the OBD
> 
> >made up of its own time-space
> >filled with stars
> ...



You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if the thing is technically an universe, if said universe isn't  at least as large as our own destroying it/creating/sustaining it isn't an universal feat and only some degree of multi galaxy+space time shit.

would DBS rated universal if the 4 galaxies cosmology was still a thing?
People were hellbent on proving it was larger than just that so i'll take that as a no.



Fang said:


> That's not how Occam's Razor works at all. You are misusing it completely. We are only directly shown in Hades Super Dimension feat dozens of galaxies visually, do you expect Kurumada to literally draw billions upon billions of galaxies, quasars, stars, and black holes to illustrate his authorial intent that it is a very large universe?



keyword was "in this case", in reference to dracula's feat.
We don't need to make as many assumptions for Hades' dimensional feats to be considered universal/large universal because the narration gives us information we can use to reach that conclusion.

Dracula's specific case is different because we either need to assume that the dimension is 90 something billion lighyers across, or we have to assume it contains far more galaxies than the ones that we can tell exist.



Fang said:


> It is literally no different other then the fact can be drawn that its not as large as Hades' Super Dimension as far as universe goes.



They're not different in their composition, but they differ in the one thing that matters, one has more than enough evidence on its own to support it being considered a full-scale universe, the other doesn't seem to



Fang said:


> Your argument isn't flying because there's no indication its not a type of universe because it already fulfills all the requirements to be some type of personal universe that Dracula maintains which I and Gywn/Soma have gone over in detail repeatedly in the thread.



It makes no difference wether or not is a type of universe, they can come in different sizes and shapes, but if they're not at least comparable to our universe in size any feats involving them will not be universal.





Fang said:


> Powerscaling validates the feat.



That isn't always the case.



Fang said:


> Right now you are trying to downplay the feat by arguing with me of all people on comparing it with Saint Seiya, a material we both know I know far more then you and which you completely bongled from the start by trying to cherrypick a hyperbolic statement by claiming the Super Dimension being infinite.



this adds nothing to the discussion.



Fang said:


> Its a universe. The fact that Dracula is above someone who can also erase timelines and destroy reality bolsters the argument supporting Dracula's feat.



Depends on wether or not those realities/timelines are from an universe one assumes is exactly like our own as a standard, if they are I concede to that.


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## Montanz (Feb 22, 2017)

Agent9149 said:


> I was told that by OBD standards that such a thing as maintaining a universe doesn't constitute as universal level DC. I think that's what Montantaz is trying to come across with


that is not what I'm trying to say.


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## Atem (Feb 22, 2017)

Montanz said:


> Depends on wether or not those realities/timelines are from an universe one assumes is exactly like our own as a standard, if they are I concede to that.



They are.

Castlevania is identical to our universe, and the Time Reaper was going to destroy its time-line.

Aeon refers to the time-rift he created, word for word, as an alternate universe and it doesn't appear any bigger than the ones in Portrait of Ruin. Which means they are universes too.

As we see in the Chaotic Realm by certain angles the dimensions have many galaxies. So, that's further evidence to suggest that the castle's dimensions are universes.


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## Fang (Feb 22, 2017)

Montanz said:


> You're missing the point, it doesn't matter if the thing is technically an universe, if said universe isn't  at least as large as our own destroying it/creating/sustaining it isn't an universal feat and only some degree of multi galaxy+space time shit.



What your saying flies against in the face of the most simple conclusion, and contradicts Occham's Razor. So your point isn't working because it has no validation.



> would DBS rated universal if the 4 galaxies cosmology was still a thing?



You'd have a point  with this nonsensical example if Dracula's universe was only quantifably a small number of known galaxies. There is no evidence of that so this approach isn't working. The fact you earlier tried to back this up by claiming Hades' Super Dimension was "infinite" and continually ignoring our acceptance of Iapetos creating universal rifts is more telling you don't understand how our standards in the OBD work.



> People were hellbent on proving it was larger than just that so i'll take that as a no.



Sure but again this doesn't have any correlation with Dracula's feat because you sure as hell have no evidence its a low number of galaxies in it. Stop trying to push this nonsense with your downplaying.



> keyword was "in this case", in reference to dracula's feat.



Keyword terminology here for you is *grasping at straws* because you don't know what you are talking about with Castlevania or Saint Seiya.



> We don't need to make as many assumptions for Hades' dimensional feats to be considered universal/large universal because the narration gives us information we can use to reach that conclusion.



You don't get to make an assumption that flies in the face of visuals or statements that show us a large number of galaxies, stars, and time-space existing in Dracula's universe. We are shown this repeatedly in the game, this is still textbook visual ques that validate the evidence that Dracula has his own private universe and even the fucking words coming out of Aeon's mouth on the matter.



> Dracula's specific case is different because we either need to assume that the dimension is 90 something billion lighyers across, or we have to assume it contains far more galaxies than the ones that we can tell exist.



That's not how it works. You need to prove its not a universe, we have the blatant visual cues, we have visual evidence, and we have Dracula's power creating and maintaining his universe. That's your burden, not ours, to prove counter which you are not doing very effectively at all here..



> They're not different in their composition, but they differ in the one thing that matters, one has more than enough evidence on its own to support it being considered a full-scale universe, the other doesn't seem to



Wrong, its just you pulling groundless arguments out of thin air because you have precious little else to criticize. So I will recap for you:

- it possesses its own time-space
- its a private dimension created and maintained by Dracula's power
- it possesses a large number of galaxies, stars, planets, moons, and so on within its expanses
- It has been specifically referred to as a universe several times in Judgment that parallel's the real universe

So if it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck, what do you think Occham's Razor is going to take as the simplest valid conclusion here?



> It makes no difference wether or not is a type of universe, they can come in different sizes and shapes, but if they're not at least comparable to our universe in size any feats involving them will not be universal.



So now you concede it is a universe but since you don't think its a universe that fits your personal bill as being a particular or specific type you don't want to accept it it doesn't count? No one's buying you on this kiddo.



> That isn't always the case.



Except it does for Saint Seiya, Dragon Ball Super, and every other fiction for that matter. What makes Castlevania an exception to this rule now? Protip: its nothing, just you backpedaling more.



> this adds nothing to the discussion.



Well seeing as how I've called you out repeatedly on your disingenuous acts in trying to downplay Dracula's feat as well as not knowing what you are talking about with repeated examples from Saint Seiya, its pretty valid when it starts crucifying your validity as a reliable debater. You might want to take care not to keep doing that.



> Depends on wether or not those realities/timelines are from an universe one assumes is exactly like our own as a standard, if they are I concede to that.



So we're done here that Dracula has his own universe, neat.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Feb 23, 2017)

Isn't the DBU 3x+ larger than ours anyway? I don't see how Dracula has that much of a firepower advantage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Feb 23, 2017)

Beerus destroys Dracula's physical, spiritual, psychological, psychic, time-bounded body.
And probably 15 more bodies we have no name for.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> Isn't the DBU 3x+ larger than ours anyway? I don't see how Dracula has that much of a firepower advantage.


10x, actually


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> 10x, actually



Citation needed?

When did people get that the universe from Dragonball is ten times the size of ours?


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## Bad Wolf (Feb 23, 2017)

It's not x10, the energy you need to destroy it is more than a regular universe because DB universe is composed even with the afterlife which is about the same size of the regular universe. So the energy needed to destroy all of that is about x10 of a regular universe.
Anyway some universe can even be infinite in size by I don't think it's the standard assumption here


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Citation needed?
> 
> When did people get that the universe from Dragonball is ten times the size of ours?


Some guy scaled it about a year back or so.

Lemme see if I can find it, Gwyn.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Just so everybody knows.



The size of our universe is _twenty times_ the size it was than previously thought.

This would apply to Castlevania since it based itself on our universe.

This is not including the fact that the universes in Castlevania have both a Heaven, and an Abyss.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 23, 2017)

@Soma Cruz 



Here it is.

However, there doesn't seem to be a clear consensus since the last comment.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

So, if I were to apply that to Castlevania.

Destroying the universe is twenty times what we previously thought.

Heaven, which is presumably a universe just like the Abyss is twenty times what we previously thought.

Destroying the Abyss is twenty times what we thought.

This would be for a ridiculous _sixty times_ the typical universal destruction that we used to think of.

So, it's fine if you use that but if you do that means even the Time Reaper is more powerful than Beerus.

Since with that kind of power it could easily destroy two universes in Drangonball Super.

Which only amounts to twenty universes as we previously knew them.

Which requires Beerus and Champa fighting each other.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Uh, if you're using the x20 thing for Castlevania then it would only be fair to do the same for DB. Hence DB's universes would be 200 times as big as the real one before the update.

That's why this x20 update really doesn't mean anything. It applies to pretty much every verse, so.... hurray, everyone who is universal or higher just got 20 times stronger. yay


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## NightmareCinema (Feb 23, 2017)

@Soma Cruz 



Another one but no comments so not taken as valid.

But thought I'd just drop it here anyway for people to discuss this and finally put this to rest.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Uh, if you're using the x20 thing for Castlevania then it would only be fair to do the same for DB. Hence DB's universes would be 200 times as big as the real one before the update.



No, it wouldn't be. Do you have evidence that Dragonball Super is exactly like our universe? If you do that's only part of what's wrong here.

There is no calculation suggesting that Dragonball Super by itself is larger than our universe. There is one including what is inside of the afterlife but that's it, and even then it's not accepted by everyone. More importantly, where are you even getting that Beerus would have destroyed the after-life too?

If you do use that, and you have evidence that Dragonball Super is exactly as large as our universe it would still be _smaller_ than a universe in Castlevania. Which would have both a Heaven, and Abyss.

Which would make Castlevania's universes _six-hundred_ times larger than a universe as we used to know it.

So, even with that the Time Reaper would be three times more powerful than Beerus.

Who is below Galamoth, and Galamoth who gets destroyed by Dracula routinely.

This is not including the castle's dimensions. Which are universes, and there are nine of them not including the Chaotic Realm. There are eleven when considering it.

Say even if you were to pretend that they don't have a Heaven, and an Abyss:

That would make Dracula's instance of forcing the divided castles together akin to throwing together five or six universes to another five or six universes.

Which would still make Dracula six times as powerful as Beerus even as a greatly weakened disembodied spirit possessing Maxim. Which would be even greater if we consider that they do have a Heaven, and Abyss.



> That's why this x20 update really doesn't mean anything.



If you can prove that Dragonball Super's universes are fully-fledged ones, and that they're not drastically different from ours.

Since Montanz felt so inclined to cherry pick that for Castlevania I expect you should have no problem being prodded about it.



> It applies to pretty much every verse, so.... hurray, everyone who is universal or higher just got 20 times stronger. yay



It applies to every universe that is like ours without the shadow of any doubt. It certainly applies to Castlevania since it closely resembles it as of modern day, and everything supernatural is for the most part kept under wraps by the government.

Of which has two afterlifes. Which include the Abyss, and Heaven.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

There's something I never got about the calc based on the DB universe map:

The calc assumes that the volume of the IRL observable universe fills the entirety of the lower hemisphere, which by definition makes no sense.
The observable universe by its name is not the entirety of the universe, just the part of it we can actually see. Hence why it is a sphere centered on earth.
Therefore, shouldn't we assume that DB's observable universe is also a sphere, just located within the lower hemisphere of the map? If we go for the lowest end possible, i.e. with the top of the sphere touching the border between the martial universe and otherword, and the bottom of the sphere touching the bottom of the globe, we would get a universe that has twice the diameter as ours. Twice the diameter translates to 8 times the volume.
That's a lower number than the 10x from the linked calc, because it ignores the realm of the supreme kais. However it gets around the issue brought up in the comments, about the map itself not necessarily being to scale.



Soma Cruz said:


> No, it wouldn't be. Do you have evidence that Dragonball Super is exactly like our universe? If you do that's only part of what's wrong here.


DB's main setting is a rocky planet called "earth"
It orbits a star called "sun," is orbited by a satellite called "moon" and is in the same solar system as another planet called "jupiter"

We have no reason to assume that DB's universe is different in size from our own. Hence why we use the same size for the observable universe.
This is obvious cherry picking on your part. You suggest we don't apply the updated size to DB. Thereby you imply that we should continue using the old number. The question then becomes, WHY? You say there is no evidence to suggest that DB's verses are as big as the updated number, but then exactly where is the evidence to suggest that it is exactly as big as the old number? 
At the end of the day, we need to apply SOME number to it, and since there is no way to determine the actual size in-universe, we just use whatever RL provides us.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> There's something I never got about the calc based on the DB universe map:
> 
> The calc assumes that the volume of the IRL observable universe fills the entirety of the lower hemisphere, which by definition makes no sense.
> The observable universe by its name is not the entirety of the universe, just the part of it we can actually see. Hence why it is a sphere centered on earth.
> ...



About the only reasonable thing you have stated, and you still haven't covered how or when it was stated that Beerus was going to do more than just destroy the material universe and then also destroy the other dimensions near it. Which is a pretty a huge presumption to make without evidence to back it up.

If you do that it is still going to also give Castlevania a huge upgrade. Since it has both a Heaven, and an Abyss.



> DB's main setting is a rocky planet called "earth"
> It orbits a star called "sun," is orbited by a satellite called "moon" and is in the same solar system as another planet called "jupiter"



Oh, I know but the problem is Dragonball Super is nothing like our universe outside of that being a vastly different alternate reality. So vastly different that nothing recognizable exists on Earth. To say nothing of the dinosaurs, and anthropomorphic monster people.



> We have no reason to assume that DB's universe is different in size from our own. Hence why we use the same size for the observable universe



Yet Montanz, and yourself were perfectly fine with this in regards to Castlevania until I decided to throw this same ridiculousness back into your face. I expected nothing less, really.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gordo solos (Feb 23, 2017)

Unless stated otherwise or we have evidence to believe it isn't, the size of a fictional universe should be the same as our universe

Reactions: Like 4


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## Gordo solos (Feb 23, 2017)

Just for the record, I agree with what you say Soma

Reactions: Like 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> About the only reasonable thing you have stated, and you still haven't covered how or when it was stated that Beerus was going to do more than just destroy the material universe and then also destroy the other dimensions near it.


The shockwaves reached the supreme kai realm, and the old kai stated the universe would get destroyed. It doesn't take a genius to infer that this means the entirety of U7 would have been busted, not just part of it. Given the context of everything, the burden of proof is on you



> If you do that it is still going to also give Castlevania a huge upgrade. Since it has both a Heaven, and an Abyss.


Yeah, it would be an upgrade for Castlevania and every other universal. If before Castlevania's macrocosm was at 3 verses, it is now essentially at "60", while a verse that only had 1 universe is now at "20". What you seem to not want to understand is that for the purposes of a vs debate, this distinction is meaningless since the scale between those 2 verses is still 3-to-1 
For Castlevania vs DB, it used to be 3-to-120 (12 universes, each 10 times the size of our own). Now it's 60-to-2400. The numbers got bigger, but the part that matters, i.e. the ratio between them, didn't move an inch



> Oh, I know but the problem is Dragonball Super is nothing like our universe outside of that being a vastly different alternate reality. So vastly different that nothing recognizable exists on Earth. To say nothing of the dinosaurs, and anthropomorphic monster people.


Again, we need a number to apply, and since there's nothing to suggest against it, DB gets the same universe size as everything else. Anything else would be arbitrary and biased.



> Yet Montanz, and yourself were perfectly fine with this in regards to Castlevania until I decided to throw this same ridiculousness back into your face. I expected nothing less, really.


So you're suggesting that you're just wasting everyone's time right now, in an attempt to get karmic justice in a manner that's completely removed from context? Great.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> This is obvious cherry picking on your part.



It is, as I noted that I was doing because it was what you were trying to do and what Montanz was trying to do.

As I already noted throughout this thread. If you apply different standards of evidence to Castlevania. I will apply those standards to Dragonball Super.



> You suggest we don't apply the updated size to DB.



Not really, I am just giving you a hard time because the both of you decided to be idiots.



> Thereby you imply that we should continue using the old number. The question then becomes, WHY? You say there is no evidence to suggest that DB's verses are as big as the updated number, but then exactly where is the evidence to suggest that it is exactly as big as the old number?



Hey, we only know that it has four galaxies _for sure_. It is probably much smaller than our universe. To say nothing of the vastly different cosmology. Why there is so much contradicting it I don't know where to begin. 

Hint: This is sarcasm.

As we already know from extra material there is a lot more than four but visually speaking that's all we can see.



> At the end of the day, we need to apply SOME number to it, and since there is no way to determine the actual size in-universe, we just use whatever RL provides us.



Yet, Castlevania doesn't get the same standard of evidence applied to it by both you and Montanz. So, what will it be? You either accept this standard for Castlevania or you can't accept it for Dragonball Super.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> So you're suggesting that you're just wasting everyone's time right now, in an attempt to get karmic justice in a manner that's completely removed from context? Great.


Then you shouldn't have done it in the first place especially with that moronic comment about how Castlevania characters use "homemade weapons" (they don't). You did this with me and Jogga in PC Supes vs Hit so don't get pissy that Gwyn is throwing this back in your face.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Then you shouldn't have done it in the first place especially with that moronic comment about how Castlevania characters use "homemade weapons" (they don't). You did this with me and Jogga in PC Supes vs Hit so don't get pissy that Gwyn is throwing this back in your face.


again, context ffs.
He claimed DB was inconsistent. I replied by bringing up the store-bought weapons in Castlevania as an example to show that every verse suffers from these kinds of inconsistencies.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> again, context ffs.
> He claimed DB was inconsistent. I replied by bringing up the store-bought weapons in Castlevania as an example to show that every verse suffers from these kinds of inconsistencies.


Considering that you were pushing for Kaioken multipliers that don't scale linearly and implying Beerus > Zeno, he was perfectly right to say that. You made your bed, now lie in it.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Considering that you were pushing for Kaioken multipliers that don't scale linearly and implying Beerus > Zeno, he was perfectly right to say that. You made your bed, now lie in it.


What is it with you people and context? In the EXACT post where I was talking about kaioken, I stated that those multipliers aren't accepted. That entire comment was nothing but a simple illustration to show that Beerus is deeper into universe level than Dracula.
And again, even if the kaioken multipliers were accepted, it would in NO WAY indicate that Beerus was stronger than Zeno. This isn't how fucking scaling works. The fiction makes it clear that Beerus is a bug to Zeno, so we wouldn't assume anything else, multipliers or no. All this would mean is that Zeno hasn't performed a feat yet that illustrates the evident difference between them. Nothing else.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> The shockwaves reached the supreme kai realm, and the old kai stated the universe would get destroyed.



Yes, the universe which Beerus and Goku were in. As they were fighting inside of it. They were not referring to the realm they were in. They were talking about the universe Beerus, and Goku were in.



> It doesn't take a genius to infer that this means the entirety of U7 would have been busted, not just part of it.



No, it takes someone who takes a statement out of context like yourself. You need to prove they meant their realm, and not the universe those two were fighting inside of.



> Given the context of everything, the burden of proof is on you



Given that this is entirely based on your poor reading comprehension, and isn't even accepted by everyone the burden of proof is on you.



> Yeah, it would be an upgrade for Castlevania and every other universal. If before Castlevania's macrocosm was at 3 verses, it is now essentially at "60", while a verse that only had 1 universe is now at "20". What you seem to not want to understand is that for the purposes of a vs debate, this distinction is meaningless since the scale between those 2 verses is still 3-to-1
> For Castlevania vs DB,* it used to be 3-to-120 (12 universes, each 10 times the size of our own)*. Now it's 60-to-2400. The numbers got bigger, but the part that matters, i.e. the ratio between them, didn't move an inch



That is fundamentally wrong as we know Castlevania is a multiverse. There's the main time-line which is 1. The other time-lines such as Cornell's which is 2. The castles dimensions which are 11. Then the Chaotic Realm which 13. Which each being composed of three dimensions. So, now it's Castlevania vs DB, it was 39-to-24. Now it's 2600-to-2400 with the reveal that the universe is twenty times larger. I like how the DBS side of this argument keeps shooting themselves in the foot, and inadvertently keep on upgrading Castlevania. It is amusing to behold. Just seeing how so much downplay can lead to the exact opposite.

By the way, you yourself noted the volume was more like eight times.

So, it's more like 2080-to-1920.



> Again, we need a number to apply, and since there's nothing to suggest against it, DB gets the same universe size as everything else. Anything else would be arbitrary and biased.



You mean just like you were trying to use multipliers, and kaioken to say Beerus was four-thousand times more powerful than needed to destroy the universe? Yes, that was fair and not biased. So was assuming that Castlevania was not a fully-fledged universe, and consisting of only a couple of galaxies. If we went just by visuals.

Despite the fact that would make Dragonball Super even smaller if we applied those same standards to it.



> So you're suggesting that you're just wasting everyone's time right now, in an attempt to get karmic justice in a manner that's completely removed from context? Great.



No, I am suggesting I am giving Dragonball Super the same treatment you have been giving Castlevania because you are still continuing to try and undermine it in any way that you can.

Reactions: Like 4 | Dislike 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> What is it with you people and context? In the EXACT post where I was talking about kaioken, I stated that those multipliers aren't accepted. That entire comment was nothing but a simple illustration to show that Beerus is deeper into universe level than Dracula.



You cannot use something that you admit is unusable, and unreliable. Those is like saying "Okay, this compass always points towards North so I am going to use it to find my way to the South Pole." It makes no sense whatsoever. You can only use it to illustrate how unreliable it is. You are using a negative to try and prove a positive.



> And again, even if the kaioken multipliers were accepted, it would in NO WAY indicate that Beerus was stronger than Zeno.



Yes, it would because at the least it proves that Beerus can destroy the multiverse and then some. Which is something only Zen'O can do, and Beerus is nothing next to Zen'O.



> This isn't how fucking scaling works.



Yes, it fucking is.

You are arguing that Beerus is twice as powerful as Zen'O by saying this.

This completely backwards, and would make Beerus the strongest in Dragonball Super.



> The fiction makes it clear that Beerus is a bug to Zeno, so we wouldn't assume anything else, multipliers or no.



Which supports my argument, and not yours. Someone whose greatest claim to fame is destroying the multiverse, and Beerus is a bug next to the guy. Dracula, as it is, should be nearly as powerful as Zen'O.

As far as power goes Beerus is outclassed.

Beerus's only advantage is speed.



> All this would mean is that Zeno hasn't performed a feat yet that illustrates the evident difference between them. Nothing else.



No, it would mean that the multipliers are even more inconsistent and unreliable than previously thought. I have already been over this several times.

The absence of evidence is not evidence.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Nep Heart (Feb 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> "homemade weapons"



 Let's be fair here. If those were homemade weapons, that'd be one helluva impressive feat of intelligence and prep right there to forge cosmic artifacts in your own personal house. Eat your heart out, Mc Guyver.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Let's be fair here. If those were homemade weapons, that'd be one helluva impressive feat of intelligence and prep right there to forge cosmic artifacts in your own personal house. Eat your heart out, Mc Guyver.


Shit, SNES SMT characters have done similar although they can fuse their weaponry with demons and whatnot. Some SMT weapons are actually from mythology too like that Divine Sword from SMT SJ.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Disagree 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Let's be fair here. If those were homemade weapons, that'd be one helluva impressive feat of intelligence and prep right there to forge cosmic artifacts in your own personal house. Eat your heart out, Mc Guyver.



Personally, I am fond of the fact Soma Cruz uses Excalibur with the sword still attached to the stone.



Alucard: "When they said 'when all you have is a rock' they weren't being literal father."

Soma Cruz: "Shut up, my son. Just let me have this."

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> Shit, SNES SMT characters have done similar although they can fuse their weaponry with demons and whatnot. Some SMT weapons are actually from mythology too like that Divine Sword from SMT SJ.



That is actually how you make weapons in Dawn of Sorrow. You give some of your souls to Yoko Belnades, and she fuses them with weapons in order to make new ones.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Personally, I am fond of the fact Soma Cruz uses Excalibur with the sword still attached to the stone.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I would hate to see what Soma does with a pair of lemons.


Soma Cruz said:


> That is actually how you make weapons in Dawn of Sorrow. You give some of your souls to Yoko Belnades, and she fuses them with weapons in order to make new ones.


Heh, that is pretty neat. Gotta love how JRPGs can let you fuse a stapler with demons or souls or whatever and you get a much stronger weapon from it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Blakk Jakk said:


> I would hate to see what Soma does with a pair of lemons.



The best part is that he starts Aria of Sorrow with a _pocket knife_ and makes it works anyway. Soma Cruz confirmed to be one of the thugs who mugged Darkseid. 



> Heh, that is pretty neat. Gotta love how JRPGs can let you fuse a stapler with demons or souls or whatever and you get a much stronger weapon from it.





If only.

I missed the coat from Aria of Sorrow.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Disagree 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> The best part is that he starts Aria of Sorrow with a _pocket knife_ and makes it works anyway. Soma Cruz confirmed to be one of the thugs who mugged Darkseid.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And that guy says Kid Dracula is Alucard. Pfffft with a pimp coat like that, Soma can score with anyone.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Toaa (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> You cannot use something that you admit is unusable, and unreliable. Those is like saying "Okay, this compass always points towards North so I am going to use it to find my way to the South Pole." It makes no sense whatsoever. You can only use it to illustrate how unreliable it is. You are using a negative to try and prove a positive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Except if someone destroys a multiverse he isnt multiversal.Powerscaling of a universal also will not make anyone multiversal.From what i have seen from your post dracula is just a high universal.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Except if someone destroys a multiverse he isnt multiversal.Powerscaling of a universal also will not make anyone multiversal.From what i have seen from your post dracula is just a high universal.



He is multiversal. He fused eleven dimensions together, each of which probably have a Heaven and Abyss, and could do so as a disembodied spirit possessing Maxim. Get over it or don't: I don't care. The fact of the matter is that Dracula manipulate, and force together multiple universes at once. Not only that, but each one is bigger than a standard universe from Dragonball Super.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Toaa (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> He is multiversal. He fused eleven dimensions together, each of which probably have a Heaven and Abyss, and could do so as a disembodied spirit possessing Maxim. Get over it or don't: I don't care. The fact of the matter is that Dracula manipulate, and force together multiple universes at once. Not only that, but each one is bigger than a standard universe from Dragonball Super.


What were those dimensions?

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## creyzi4zb12 (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> 10x, actually


It's actually 36 times larger if you consider the time rings and dimensional creations.

Plus there are 13 universes.

So 36 times 13 = 468 times larger than a regular Universe.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Toaa said:


> What were those dimensions?



City of Haze, Sandy Grave, Nation of Fools, Forest of Doom, 13th Street, Forgotten City, Burnt Paradise, Dark Academy, and Nest of Evil. That's nine to start, and the other two are from the Chaotic Realm that the castle is a part of.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> City of Haze, Sandy Grave, Nation of Fools, Forest of Doom, 13th Street, Forgotten City, Burnt Paradise, Dark Academy, and Nest of Evil. That's nine to start, and the other two are from the Chaotic Realm that the castle is a part of.


City of Haze sounds more like a City instead of a Universe. 

If that's the case, then the Time Chambers and Sealing Pots has its own Heaven and Hell, and is the size of a Universe as well.

Looks like there's more to add in the number of universes in DB

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

He's putting all mine and Gwyn's posts on disagree.

He can't stop eating those Salted Nut Rolls.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> City of Haze sounds more like a City instead of a Universe.



No, as we see the names are not being literal and each dimension is a world in of itself. We already see that the dimensions from certain angles have many galaxies as seen in the Chaotic Realm, and Aeon's time-rift doesn't appear any larger than the ones in Portait of Ruin. Yet, it is referred to as an alternate universe. That sets the standard for these personal dimensions.

Also, like how you are so ass blasted that you are disagreeing with things that are objective facts. That post of mine noting that you can make new weapons in Dawn of Sorrow by fusing souls into things? That's a fact, and there's nothing to disagree with there.



> If that's the case, then the Time Chambers



Show me the Hyperbolic Time Chamber having a planet, with a sky or outer space, and celestial bodies.



> and Sealing Pots has its own Heaven and Hell, and is the size of a Universe as well.



Show me these pots having celestial bodies, either of them, and a planet with an outer space in the background.



> Looks like there's more to add in the number of universes in DB



No, because you haven't satisfied the burden of proof that any of these might be universes.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> City of Haze, Sandy Grave, Nation of Fools, Forest of Doom, 13th Street, Forgotten City, Burnt Paradise, Dark Academy, and Nest of Evil. That's nine to start, and the other two are from the Chaotic Realm that the castle is a part of.


If you're counting dimensions that aren't even permanent, then why not also count the separate timelines in DB? From the number of time rings, we know of 5 timelines in total, each of which has 12 universes, each of which is 8-10 times the size of ours (160-200 with the new size). That's 9600 to 12000 "universes" worth of volume. 
Hell, since all the paintings went bye-bye after Portrait of Ruin, why not also count the 6 universes Zeno wiped out? 

There's absolutely no point to continuing this meaningless dick-measuring contest, though. The total number of realms in each verse has no baring on the point of this thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> If you're counting dimensions that aren't even permanent,



They're chopped up pieces of the castle separated by quantum space barriers. They are part of the castle, and always have been. Brauner just separated them in order to more easily draw demonic power from the castle.



> then why not also count the separate timelines in DB?



As time-lines are their own universes, and are not a part of other time-lines.

You dumb cunt.



> From the number of time rings, we know of 5 timelines in total, each of which has 12 universes, each of which is 8-10 times the size of ours (160-200 with the new size). That's 9600 to 12000 "universes" worth of volume.



As I already noted separate time-lines do not count as the same universe. They are different universe, and you have yet to provide any evidence for your claims regarding Beerus and Goku destroying more than just the material universe besides your poor reading comprehension. 



> Hell, since all the paintings went bye-bye after Portrait of Ruin, why not also count the 6 universes Zeno wiped out?



They weren't destroyed. They were parts of the castle that were chopped into separate pieces, and separated with quantum space barriers. 



> There's absolutely no point to continuing this meaningless dick-measuring contest, though. The total number of realms in each verse has no baring on the point of this thread.



Yet, you just tried to apply different time-lines to the volumes of other time-lines. As if somehow Beerus, and Goku were also destroying nearby time-lines for no reason. You keep on doing your side a disservice with your horseshit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Toaa (Feb 23, 2017)

I think this thread had turned out weird.


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## creyzi4zb12 (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> If you're counting dimensions that aren't even permanent, then why not also count the separate timelines in DB? From the number of time rings, we know of 5 timelines in total, each of which has 12 universes, each of which is 8-10 times the size of ours (160-200 with the new size). That's 9600 to 12000 "universes" worth of volume.
> Hell, since all the paintings went bye-bye after Portrait of Ruin, why not also count the 6 universes Zeno wiped out?
> 
> There's absolutely no point to continuing this meaningless dick-measuring contest, though. The total number of realms in each verse has no baring on the point of this thread.


Frankly, I don't even know why having more universes is more relevant in this issue.



Blakk Jakk said:


> He's putting all mine and Gwyn's posts on disagree.
> 
> He can't stop eating those Salted Nut Rolls.



I could say the same to you in my case so.............


And here's a *like* and some *rep*, if it makes you feel any better

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nep Heart (Feb 23, 2017)

I see this has devolved into the classic multiversal shitstorm now.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Blakk Jakk (Feb 23, 2017)

creyzi4zb12 said:


> I could say the same to you in my case so.............
> 
> 
> And here's a *like* and some *rep*, if it makes you feel any better


Dude you didn't rep me 

Edit: Well shit, you finally figured out how to rep someone

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Creative 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Toaa said:


> I think this thread had turned out weird.



Only because of some idiots who want to shoot for multiversal Beerus that is stronger than Zen'O.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> You dumb cunt.


Charming



> Yet, you just tried to apply different time-lines to the volumes of other time-lines. As if somehow Beerus, and Goku were also destroying nearby time-lines for no reason.


Except I never claimed any such thing. This entire non-argument is just another instance of you taking a side comment I made and blowing it way out of proportion. The total number of dimensions that have existed within the castle at one point or another doesn't mean a damn thing.



Soma Cruz said:


> Only because of some idiots who want to shoot for multiversal Beerus that is stronger than Zen'O.


Do you ever get tired of quoting shit out of context?


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Charming



Don't try to play at being pleasant. You have an agenda here, and it's plain as I can see.



> Except I never claimed any such thing. This entire non-argument is just another instance of you taking a side comment I made and blowing it way out of proportion. The total number of dimensions that have existed within the castle at one point or another doesn't mean a damn thing.



They have _always_ existed. The whole point of Portrait of Ruin was that Brauner chopped the castle into pieces, put those pieces behind quantum space barriers to siphon the demonic power from them, and add to his own repertoire. You are again showing how little you know about Castlevania. Despite being told the specifics several times, and you are now feigning ignorance of it.



> Do you ever get tired of quoting shit out of context?



This is hilarious coming from the guy who was complaining about us using context against him.

As if context does not matter in an argument. You are in no place to complain about anything.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> again, context ffs.
> He claimed DB was inconsistent. I replied by bringing up the store-bought weapons in Castlevania as an example to show that every verse suffers from these kinds of inconsistencies.





SSBMonado said:


> What is it with you people and context? In the EXACT post where I was talking about kaioken, I stated that those multipliers aren't accepted. That entire comment was nothing but a simple illustration to show that Beerus is deeper into universe level than Dracula.
> And again, even if the kaioken multipliers were accepted, it would in NO WAY indicate that Beerus was stronger than Zeno. This isn't how fucking scaling works. The fiction makes it clear that Beerus is a bug to Zeno, so we wouldn't assume anything else, multipliers or no. All this would mean is that Zeno hasn't performed a feat yet that illustrates the evident difference between them. Nothing else.



Fucking seriously?



Soma Cruz said:


> As I already noted, even Aeon's Time-Rift is noted to be an alternate universe. Who is a scrub next to these characters we are talking about right now. I can post the video, yet again.
> 
> 
> As seen here, and the time-frame is already there.
> ...



_Fucking seriously. 
_

Reactions: Winner 3


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Don't try to play at being pleasant. You have an agenda here, and it's plain as I can see.


My agenda is to argue about the matchup. It's kind of cute seeing you of all people say something like this, given that it's plain as day that you made this thread as a spite thread in Dracula's favor. 



> They have _always_ existed. The whole point of Portrait of Ruin was that Brauner chopped the castle into pieces, put those pieces behind quantum space barriers to siphon the demonic power from them, and add to his own repertoire. You are again showing how little you know about Castlevania. Despite being told the specifics several times, and you are now feigning ignorance of it.


Quote that evidence, if it has been posted already. I'm not digging through 5 pages of your condescending posts.



> This is hilarious coming from the guy who was complaining about us using context against him.
> 
> As if context does not matter in an argument. You are in no place to complain about anything.


In the part I quoted, you put words in my mouth in an attempt to ridicule me, and I called you out on it. That's all there is to. 
And since you seem to have such a hard time understanding basic power scaling, I'll explain to you again why nothing I said implied Beerus being stronger than Zeno.
Simply put, do we assume that first form Freeza is stronger than Cell just because the former has far better on-screen feats? No, of course not. The same applies to Beerus and Zeno - or it would if kaioken scaling were accepted.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

Anyways, trying to get back to something resembling a debate:

How's Dracula's relationship with the sun throughout the games? I recall that in portrait of ruin, his death involved getting vaporized by the rising sun after losing to Jonathan and Charlotte. With a bloodlusted Beerus, it's safe to say that the earth is going to get blown up about half a nanosecond into the fight, meaning Dracula is bound to get a real good look at the sun pretty quickly. And if that suggested weakness isn't contradicted elsewhere in the series, it's a possible factor here.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> My agenda is to argue about the matchup. It's kind of cute seeing you of all people say something like this, given that it's plain as day that you made this thread as a spite thread in Dracula's favor.



As it's already been made clear several times I did not. I made it in order to see who would win because I was curious, and wanted to see if Dracula could match up. Then some certain people decided to downplay Castlevania which backfired horribly as I took a closer look at what they were trying to undermine.



> Quote that evidence, if it has been posted already. I'm not digging through 5 pages of your condescending posts.



Holy fucking shit. This isn't even the first time I had to freaking repeat myself. You have consistently ignored everything that I brought up, and pushing the blame onto me? That's your fault.



Soma Cruz said:


> Oh, and before you ask for evidence that Brauner can create dimensions.
> 
> 
> As noted by Charlotte herself.
> ...



Charlotte: This painting... Its power is incredible!

Jonathan: Must be one of those paintings...

Charlotte: Without a doubt. Hm... I've got it!

Jonathan: Care to share?

Charlotte: This paintings function. Brauner is using it to control the power of this castle!

Jonathan: Well then, let's hurry up and rip it to shreds!

Charlotte: Impossible. Anything we do will be pointless. From what I can tell, based on the theory of curse amplification, this picture is a multilayer quantum-space barrier. A kind of paranormal phenomenon.

Jonathan: Uh, okay... And what does that mean in human language?

Charlotte: ... In short, think of it as a series of walls that surround the magic controlling Dracula's Castle. The painting itself is just the outermost wall. As soon as you break it, it'll regenerate. It's unbreakable.

Jonathan: How convenient. So now what?

Charlotte: I'll align my magic with the painting's so we can enter it. That'll be the best way to circumvent the castle's magic. The risk is quite high though.

Jonathan: No problem. C'mon, what do we have to lose?

Charlotte: Okay then. Here we go.



> In the part I quoted, you put words in my mouth in an attempt to ridicule me, and I called you out on it. That's all there is to.



I didn't put words into your mouth. You did a good job of doing that yourself when you tried to use kaioken multiplier despite the fact you knew they weren't reliable. 

Deal with it. 



> And since you seem to have such a hard time understanding basic power scaling, I'll explain to you again why nothing I said implied Beerus being stronger than Zeno.



No, let me explain it to you. You tried to use kaioken multipliers to say Beerus's destructive capacity was greater. Despite the fact that you can't use them because they are unreliable, and were trying to say "Well, they're not reliable but they still make Beerus unquantifiably more powerful because I say so."

That's you.



> Simply put, do we assume that first form Freeza is stronger than Cell just because the former has far better on-screen feats?



No, this is like you trying to say Aeon's time-rift is not applicable to Dracula's dimensions despite the former being far weaker than he is. 

Zen'O has better claims of destructive power, and feats than Beerus does. This analogy does not even work here for you. 

You are trying to claim that Zen'O who has destroyed more, and claimed to be capable of destroying more is actually far more powerful with nothing to show for it.

Besides kaioken multipliers, which you admit are unreliable, and your attempts to say Beerus is unquantifiably more powerful than anything we have seen him done or claimed to be capable of doing.

This, all of this, because _you say so_. 

I am not the condescending one here. 



> No, of course not. The same applies to Beerus and Zeno - or it would if kaioken scaling were accepted.



No, your analogy fails completely and doesn't apply here at all with you basing it off misunderstanding my argument yet again.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Anyways, trying to get back to something resembling a debate:
> 
> How's Dracula's relationship with the sun throughout the games?



He has no particular weakness against the sun, and if you try to bring up the instance in Portrait of Ruin where "it destroys him" that is a load of horseshit, and you ignoring the fact he got beat on by both Johnathan Morris with the Vampire Killer and Charlotte Aulin prior to this. 



> I recall that in portrait of ruin, his death involved getting vaporized by the rising sun after losing to Jonathan and Charlotte.



My god you are fucking predictable. 

This was explicitly after all of his demonic power was exhausted, and he was brought to his knees by both Johnathan Morris and Charlotte Aulin. You are even aware of this, and try to use it anyway.



> With a bloodlusted Beerus, it's safe to say that the earth is going to get blown up about half a nanosecond into the fight, meaning Dracula is bound to get a real good look at the sun pretty quickly.



Which would accomplish positively nothing as Dracula needed to have all his demonic power exhausted by both Johnathan Morris with the Vampire Killer, and Charlotte Aulin and even then that didn't destroy his spirit.



> And if that suggested weakness isn't contradicted elsewhere in the series, it's a possible factor here.



No, it isn't because you are already ignoring the fact Dracula was exhausted of his demonic power when this happens.


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## SSBMonado (Feb 23, 2017)

About the sun thing:
So according to you, it's the only instance where something akin to that happens. And apparently I "ignored" the fact that Dracula was weakened even though I stated that it happened after he lost to Jonathan and Charlotte literally in the same fucking sentence. Sure. 

About the conversation in PoR:
More vagueness you are choosing to interpret in a specific fashion. Nowhere in that conversation is it stated that the dimensions of the paintings existed prior to Brauner's appearance. All it says is that the paintings contain part of the castle's power. The simple explanation Brauner sealed parts of the castle's power into the paintings in order to control it, thus creating the dimensions you enter. Since you enter them specifically to weaken Brauner's hold over the castle, it stands to reason they canonically cease to exist the instant you kill the respective boss. But at the latest, they should have been undone along with that specific version of the castle when Dracula was destroyed again.

For the record, I still don't buy for a second that each of those paintings contains a full-sized universe. And a statement made by a completely unrelated character in a completely unrelated game about a completely unrelated circumstance doesn't cut it as evidence. Neither does bringing up the chaotic realm, since that dimension represented the sum total of Dracula's power, which Brauner obviously didn't have access to. 

The absolute most you can say about the dimensions in the paintings is that they are big enough to house the celestial bodies you can see in them. Anything beyond that requires evidence that simply isn't there.

Now go ahead and fling more shit at me. Go and dislike every post I made in this thread if it makes you feel better. But it's dead obvious that neither of us is going to budge, and nothing productive is going to come out of it. Feel free to dispute what I said, but this is the last I'll post on the matter.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> About the sun thing:
> So according to you, it's the only instance where something akin to that happens. And apparently I "ignored" the fact that Dracula was weakened even though I stated that it happened after he lost to Jonathan and Charlotte literally in the same fucking sentence. Sure.



You have, and the fact you brought that up despite knowing that as I already acknowledged that you did; notice the part where I specifically note that: You are trying to reach for anything you can to undermine Dracula no matter how nonsensical it is. It reminds of how you were trying to use kaioken multipliers.



> About the conversation in PoR:
> More vagueness you are choosing to interpret in a specific fashion. Nowhere in that conversation is it stated that the dimensions of the paintings existed prior to Brauner's appearance.



We know they always have thanks to the Kyoma Demon, Aguni, the events of Harmony of Dissonance, and the events of Aria of Sorrow. They are universes that are a part of the castle. You either get over it, or you don't. That's the bottom line whether you like it or not.

Brauner did not create these dimensions. He took control over them by separating the castle with quantum space barriers, and then changed their design. 



> All it says is that the paintings contain part of the castle's power.



Due the fact they contain part of the castle, which he separated into chunks, and siphons for demonic power.



> The simple explanation Brauner sealed parts of the castle's power into the paintings in order to control it, thus creating the dimensions you enter.



The castle's demonic power, and the castle are one and the same. The castle itself is the physical manifestation of this demonic power. Brauner separated chunks of the castle because he separated chunks of what it was made up of to begin with.

As I already noted pages ago with the excerpt I took from Dawn of Sorrow's library.





> Since you enter them specifically to weaken Brauner's hold over the castle, it stands to reason they canonically cease to exist the instant you kill the respective boss.



No, they don't. They simply return to the castle. In order for this to work you would have to argue that the castle was permanently weakened, and that this demonic power never returned to the castle.

Which is not the case.



> But at the latest, they should have been undone along with that specific version of the castle when Dracula was destroyed again.



No, they would be brought back along with all the demonic power that the castle represents. As it is the physical manifestation of that demonic power. Note the above, where I already make it clear that for your argument to work Dracula's demonic power would have to have been permanently weakened.

It wasn't.



> For the record, I still don't buy for a second that each of those paintings contains a full-sized universe.



For the record, you haven't shown me any evidence that the other universes in Dragonball Super are exactly the same as universe seven. They could be much smaller for all we know. After all we don't see most of them.

In which case I don't buy that they are fully-fledged universes or consist of multiple dimensions like U7.



> And a statement made by a completely unrelated character in a completely unrelated game about a completely unrelated circumstance doesn't cut it as evidence.



It certainly does. Since Aeon is far weaker, and the dimension he creates appears no larger than the ones we see in Portrait of Ruin.

Otherwise, there's nothing proving that the other universes in Dragonball Super are exactly as large as U7. Heck, for all we know it could be the only fully-fledged universe.



> Neither does bringing up the chaotic realm, since that dimension represented the sum total of Dracula's power, which Brauner obviously didn't have access to.



No, it's not the entire castle is representation of Dracula's demonic power. It's not simply the Chaotic Realm, and even then every room in it has a different universe if we don't treat the ones that look similar the same.

Which means the Chaotic Realm has even more than previously believed.



> The absolute most you can say about the dimensions in the paintings is that they are big enough to house the celestial bodies you can see in them. Anything beyond that requires evidence that simply isn't there.



The absolute _least_ you can say is they're dimensions the same size as Aeon's time-rift. Which is stated to be an alternate universe by the man himself.

Anything beyond celestial bodies in the other universes in Dragonball Super can't been seen, and there's nothing proving that they are fully-fledged universe like U7 with multiple dimensions to them.



> Now go ahead and fling more shit at me. Go and dislike every post I made in this thread if it makes you feel better. But it's dead obvious that neither of us is going to budge, and nothing productive is going to come out of it. Feel free to dispute what I said, but this is the last I'll post on the matter.



No, that's what the DBS side of this argument has been doing non-stop. I have never disliked a single post in this thread, and I have not used that system in order to exact petty vengeance. That's your side, once again, and not me. Once again you are building a false narrative, and you have nothing to back up this narrative.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> As I already noted separate time-lines do not count as the same universe. They are different universe, and you have yet to provide any evidence for your claims regarding Beerus and Goku destroying more than just the material universe besides your poor reading comprehension.



I'm not sure if this was addressed but the shockwaves which were responsible for the destruction reached the afterlife and the Kaioshin realm.


Also the explosion that was going to destroy the universe is shown reaching the Kaioshin realm, and it can be inferred to have reached the afterlife since the weaker shockwaves did.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> I'm not sure if this was addressed but the shockwaves which were responsible for the destruction reached the afterlife and the Kaioshin realm.



And yet they did jack of anything to the Kaioshin Realm. I don't see it being anything more than a light breeze at that point because of how far away it is. I am not seeing how it would have destroyed it.



> Also the explosion that was going to destroy the universe is shown reaching the Kaioshin realm, and it can be inferred to have reached the afterlife since the weaker shockwaves did.



The weaker shockwaves that did jack of anything to the Kaioshin Realm, and the attack in specific that was just going to destroy the universe? An inferral is not evidence, and especially not when it isn't stated that it would also destroy the Kaioshin Realm.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Feb 23, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> And yet they did jack of anything to the Kaioshin Realm. I don't see it being anything more than a light breeze at that point because of how far away it is. I am not seeing how it would have destroyed it.



So the statements from knowledgable characters and the narrator mean nothing? The Kaioshin realm is pretty durable anyway since it was considered a suitable stage to fight Kid Buu.



> The weaker shockwaves that did jack of anything to the Kaioshin Realm, and the attack in specific that was just going to destroy the universe? An inferral is not evidence, and especially not when it isn't stated that it would also destroy the Kaioshin Realm.



Uh, the Elder Kai in the Kaioshin realm clearly said "us and everyone else is going to die". And in the video I posted the explosion is shown reaching the Kaioshin realm?


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Oomura Yoshitsugu said:


> So the statements from knowledgable characters and the narrator mean nothing?


 No, I was going by the visual cues. Which statement do you want me to look at exactly? Your time-frame didn't skip to it immediately.



> The Kaioshin realm is pretty durable anyway since it was considered a suitable stage to fight Kid Buu.



Yes, and?

It's not like Kid Buu was as powerful as these guys back then and we saw Kid Buu cause plenty of damage when he fought there.



> Uh, the Elder Kai in the Kaioshin realm clearly said "us and everyone else is going to die". And in the video I posted the explosion is shown reaching the Kaioshin realm?



Not seeing the time-frame. Where is it exactly in the video that points this out, and as I already noted the universes in Castlevania are composed of multiple dimensions as well. See Heaven, and the Abyss.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Wait, you quoted my post regarding time-lines.

I wasn't talking about whether it could destroy the after-life and Kaioshin Realm there.

I was talking about their attacks not destroying other time-lines, and that the time-lines are their own separate universes.

Why are we talking about the after-life, and the Kaioshin Realm?


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## Gordo solos (Feb 23, 2017)

Timelines are actually their own separate multiverse in DB. Future Zamasu comes from the Universe 10 of Trunks' timeline and Future Zen'o doesn't live in Universe 7 of Trunks' timeline. Black and Zamasu also went on a killing spree and murdered all of the gods across the multiverse in Trunks' timeline

I don't know why timeline destruction is being brought up for Beerus though


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

SSBMonado tried to shoehorn in time-lines as being part of universes instead of being separate universes.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Also, will note that the astral plane is a thing too.

So, there's the universe. Then there's Heaven, there's the Abyss (aka, Hell), and the Astral Plane. 

We know the Abyss consists of six distinctly different realms. So, altogether a single universe in Castlevania consists of nine dimensions.


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## Atem (Feb 23, 2017)

Oh, and for reference the Abyss is very explicitly a universe too.





We see numerous stars, and galaxies in one of its realms too.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## tivanenk (Feb 24, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> About the sun thing:
> So according to you, it's the only instance where something akin to that happens. And apparently I "ignored" the fact that Dracula was weakened even though I stated that it happened after he lost to Jonathan and Charlotte literally in the same fucking sentence. Sure.
> 
> About the conversation in PoR:
> ...



Dracula was also vaporized by the sun in Super Castlevania IV.


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

tivanenk said:


> Dracula was also vaporized by the sun in Super Castlevania IV.



Also, after getting beat on by Simon Belmont with the Vampire Killer.

You are even more blatant about your dishonesty than SSBMonado. At least he acknowledged that Dracula was beat up, and drastically weakened first. You don't even do that.

Not surprised, really.

Since you already tried to falsely claim that Castlevania: Judgement was non-canon based on a time-line no one could read, was dated, and the latest statements regarding it make everything canon.

Including Legacy of Darkness.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

Just in case anyone is stupid enough to think it's viable without drastically weakening Dracula first.

The Giant Bat, yes that one, can survive in broad daylight despite being a joke as far as vampiric creatures go.


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## Cain1234 (Feb 24, 2017)

Does it matter how much weak he had to get, Dracula getting vaporized by the sun looks pretty bad on your resume reguardless of how you look at it. To Beerus it is not even worth a second glance, heck Beerus has shown the ability to remotely Hakai shit, just by thinking about it.


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## Toaa (Feb 24, 2017)

Well he is a vampire.Thats like saying kryptonite weakness makes superman weak.


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## jkujbkjhffd (Feb 24, 2017)

Toaa said:


> Well he is a vampire.Thats like saying kryptonite weakness makes superman weak.



We've seen Beerus create sun-like objects


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

Cain1234 said:


> Does it matter how much weak he had to get, Dracula getting vaporized by the sun looks pretty bad on your resume reguardless of how you look at it.



Yes, it does because _only_ when Dracula gets that weak does it have any effect on him. It is not a viable option unless you drastically weaken him first. Only then would it even work.



> To Beerus it is not even worth a second glance, heck Beerus has shown the ability to remotely Hakai shit, just by thinking about it.



Already noted pages ago that even Death can come back from being erased from existence. Hakai is going to be completely useless here. Also, it shows that the power of dominance can erase things from existence.



Pandamonium said:


> We've seen Beerus create sun-like objects



Not actually suns.

The stars Dracula can create _are_ though.


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## Toaa (Feb 24, 2017)

Pandamonium said:


> We've seen Beerus create sun-like objects


I dont think these have the properties of the sun.For example there aint no way that beerus knows fusion.He was asleep during the lesson.

Kaioshin probably can create stars.


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## Toaa (Feb 24, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> Yes, it does because _only_ when Dracula gets that weak does it have any effect on him. It is not a viable option unless you drastically weaken him first. Only then would it even work.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I dont think thats actually coming back from being erased from existence exactly.


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

Which wouldn't matter anyway since even the Giant Bat can survive in broad daylight no strings attached at the top of its game.


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

Toaa said:


> I dont think thats actually coming back from being erased from existence exactly.



I will post the scene again but it explicitly notes that Soma Cruz used the power of dominance to erase Death from existence.



> *Dracula died in battle in 1999. That is the truth.
> However----- his soul did not sink into chaos. Instead of losing the memory of his past self, he was reincarnated as a human being with the power of dominance over monsters.*
> *That is the existence of Soma Cruz.*
> If in essence, he is the new Dracula, he should have reigned over the castle but with the help of the vampire hunters’ Genya Arikado, Julius Belmont and Yoko Belnades, as well as the previously mentioned childhood friend, his connection to chaos was severed.
> ...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Toaa (Feb 24, 2017)

Soma Cruz said:


> I will post the scene again but it explicitly notes that Soma Cruz used the power of dominance to erase Death from existence.


How did he regenerate or what exactly happened.Being able to come back from literally being erased from existence is nothing to laugh at.


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## Atem (Feb 24, 2017)

Toaa said:


> How did he regenerate or what exactly happened.Being able to come back from literally being erased from existence is nothing to laugh at.



As we see from Dawn of Sorrow the monsters have high grade regeneration that you need to nullify with magic seals. Otherwise, they keep on regenerating.

Death is one of them.

Taken from the game's script.

Soma: And this is?

Yoko: A Magic Seal.

Soma: Magic Seal?

Yoko: The cult leader appears to create gates that draw the power of darkness. Monsters exposed to that power are said to be invincible.

Soma: So how am I supposed to destroy them?

Yoko: That's where this Magic Seal comes in. Want to practice using it?

In terms of fighting those monsters. They're not actually invincible so much as hard to put down. If you whittle down their health you need to use the magic seal to finish them off.

Otherwise, they regenerate and the fight continues again.

As the same light novel makes clear Death is a creature of Chaos (aka, a creature of Darkness) representative of Death itself.


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