# Itachi vs. Tsunade and A



## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

*Itachi*




*vs. *

*Tsunade and A*



---

*Location*: Empty Konoha.
*Starting Distance*: 20m.
*Knowledge*: Manga.
*Restrictions*: None.

​


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## t0xeus (Feb 5, 2016)

Itachi is going to need to finish this off as quickly as possible, before he collapses, because he is activating his Susanoo in the first second of the fight, when Ay rushes at him, and can't activate it or he's dead.

He kills Tsunade thanks to Amaterasu, but won't be able to hit Ay with anything, and after he can't hold his Susanoo anymore, he's going to die.

Kage-duo wins high diff.


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## Itachі (Feb 5, 2016)

Tsunade is put down via Amaterasu and Ei can be taken with Totsuka. I can't see them winning unless they go all out from the beginning to be honest. Itachi could underestimate Ei's durability, try to attack him and get countered hard but I see that happening with a Bunshin in the first few minutes of the battle. Itachi could also activate Susano'o if Ei replicates his attack on Sasuke but he's a goner if he gets hit by a normal attack.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

Itachi wins. He has hax that can bypass the regen/durability of Ei and Tsunade and should have rep on both and their status as Kage level opponents. To boot he is more stealthy and has a better ranged arsenal. Susanoo is the fail safe here that can protect him from V2 and anything either of them can dish out. The problem as stated is him doing it in time, but Itachi's one of the most intelligent and battle smooth characters in the manga as hyped by Kabuto, Kakashi, etc.


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2016)

Byakuyo amped A removes itachi head off


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

If Tsunade has knowledge on ama she can summon Katsuyu in front of her to block LOS. Itachi would die of exhaustion before killing Katsuyu with ama, because Katsuyu can pull a Juubi and divide the burning parts off of her. 

Itachi isn't touching Ei, but at the same time Itachi can just turtle against Tsunade and Ei.

This becomes a battle of attrition, which the kage duo wins.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Byakuyo amped A removes itachi head off




What is she going to do, hop on his shoulders? 

Armored Susano'o tanks that approach quite comfortably.



			
				BringerOfChaos said:
			
		

> If Tsunade has knowledge on ama she can summon Katsuyu in front of her to block LOS. Itachi would die of exhaustion before killing Katsuyu with ama, because Katsuyu can pull a Juubi and divide the burning parts off of her.




Totsuka would get rid of Katsuyu. Itachi could probably bottle the majority of the slug before it splits.


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## Itachі (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> If Tsunade has knowledge on ama she can summon Katsuyu in front of her to block LOS. Itachi would die of exhaustion before killing Katsuyu with ama, because Katsuyu can pull a Juubi and divide the burning parts off of her.
> 
> Itachi isn't touching Ei, but at the same time Itachi can just turtle against Tsunade and Ei.
> 
> This becomes a battle of attrition, which the kage duo wins.



That method is too slow to block Amaterasu, unless you're saying that she summons large Katsuyu at the beginning.

I can see Itachi losing by getting his hits tanked then countered though.


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## Ghoztly (Feb 5, 2016)

Manga knowledge means Raikage/Tsunade are wary of Sharingan and Itachi;s rep but they no idea Itachi even has Susanoo let alone the Totsuka and Yata. The other MS abilities can be argued but one would assume due to Kakashi and Jiraiya's experiences she has some intel on Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu. Not that it would help her. Raikage has next to no knowledge on Itachi at all.

Them not knowing of Susanoo and his weapons makes this a high diff for Itachi IMO.

They wouldn't recognize his abilities like Orochimaru did. And even he was sealed knowing such.


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## Veracity (Feb 5, 2016)

Of itachi doesn't immediately imploy Sussano, he gets stomped here. Tsuande can literally amp Ay to V3; a speed that itachi wouldn't even be able to react to. He would get blitzed casually.


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## Ghoztly (Feb 5, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Of itachi doesn't immediately imploy Sussano, he gets stomped here. Tsuande can literally amp Ay to V3; a speed that itachi wouldn't even be able to react to. He would get blitzed casually.



This is one scenario that could happen as well, it depends on who strikes first really, and I would put my money on Itachi if it comes to Tsunade, he could fend off an initial blitz from Ei but yeah if she amps him he's in shit.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Of itachi doesn't immediately imploy Sussano, he gets stomped here. Tsuande can literally amp Ay to V3; a speed that itachi wouldn't even be able to react to. He would get blitzed casually.




Itachic an play guerilla games all day here from 20m and his feint game. Block LOS with Ama tagging Tsunade or a katon and he dissapears into the city. Neither of them are sensors. Itachi can employ both Ama, susano, and Genjutsu from range. 

also tsunade is not Onooki. Ei already has bjuu levels of chakra when using v2, she isn't doing anything to boost that further.

Also Itachi reacted to lightning before so he has precedent to reacting mentally to very fast things.


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## Bonly (Feb 5, 2016)

Itachi's base arsenal isn't gonna do much to A thanks to his durability and Raiton armor and it isn't gonna do much to Tsunade with her durability and Byakugo to heal so he's gonna need to rely on his MS jutsu and that will be his downfall imo. He doesn't have the stamina to use repeated MS and win this fight and between Tsunade's knowledge and A's knowledge they should know all about his MS jutsu bar the Totsuka blade and Yata Mirror so they should be able to have a decent shot to counter. Itachi needs all his shots to land a hit and be an end game otherwise he'll die due to his lack of stamina so depending on how the battle plays out Itachi might get lucky or he won't but I'd side with the Kage duo


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## Veracity (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachic an play guerilla games all day here from 20m and his feint game. Block LOS with Ama tagging Tsunade or a katon and he dissapears into the city. Neither of them are sensors. Itachi can employ both Ama, susano, and Genjutsu from range.
> 
> also tsunade is not Onooki. Ei already has bjuu levels of chakra when using v2, she isn't doing anything to boost that further.
> 
> Also Itachi reacted to lightning before so he has precedent to reacting mentally to very fast things.


I never said that Itachi couldn't create an opening to activate Sussano. I agree he can. But if he doesn't before V3 comes out, he dies. 

I disagree.☻ Exhausted Tsuande amped Onnokis Jinton to about the size of Madaras meteor. That probably multiplied the size by around 20. If you think that amount of chakra being pumped into Ay isn't going to increase his speed, then we will have to agree to disagree here .

So? First you're gonna have to prove that the chakra dragon constructed and controlled by Sasuke is indeed the speed of lighting. Then you're gonna have to prove how the fastest man of Itachis era is actually slower then Kirin. Then you're gonna have to prove how Itachi reacts to something even faster than V2 Ay. I agree that itachi can most likely manifest ricbage flash sussano before he gets nailed by V2 Ay( depending on the distance), but saying he can react to something faster is simply wank.


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## Ghoztly (Feb 5, 2016)

I could see him getting rid of Tsunade via Amaterasu or trapping her in a genjutsu to take her out of the game while he deals with Ei. His feint game is no joke and he could probably survive an initial blitz attempt. You could argue he can or can't based on feats, On one he was sick and arguably sandbagging on Sasuke while alive and the other he was Edo when he was able to go handle Bee/KCM Naruto's speed. 

But I wouldn't put it past him to survive a blitz from Ei much better than his little brother did. 

He would probably activate Susanoo then and Ei has no idea what his is capable of.

It's just as scary for the duo as it is for Itachi.  Could go either way, but the fact they have no intel on his Susanoo puts this in Itachi's favor. He wouldn't recognize the Susanoo or the Totsuka blade like Orochimaru did.  That said he also doesn't know how fast the Raikage is either. 

Tsunade could do more given the chance but she doesn't have the speed. She isn't slow but Itachi and certainly Ei outclass her in that area.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Totsuka would get rid of Katsuyu. Itachi could probably bottle the majority of the slug before it splits.



Katsuyu can just divide around the sword stabbing her. She divided pretty fast against Manda. 



Itachі said:


> That method is too slow to block Amaterasu, unless you're saying that she summons large Katsuyu at the beginning.
> 
> I can see Itachi losing by getting his hits tanked then countered though.



Well I guess it depends on how much knowledge Tsunade has. Itachi builds up chakra in his eyes, his sharingan changes, his eye starts to bleed, and then there's a small gap of time between black flames forming and black flames igniting who ever is looked upon. Tsunade just has to slam her palm on the ground when she see's blood begin to leak from the eye to block LOS. Or she could probably slam her palm on the air, considering Gai and part 1 Naruto can use air as a surface to summon.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I disagree.☻ Exhausted Tsuande amped Onnokis Jinton to about the size of Madaras meteor. That probably multiplied the size by around 20. If you think that amount of chakra being pumped into Ay isn't going to increase his speed, then we will have to agree to disagree here .


Onooki, who was literally nigh mortally injured, and tired from saving the alliance from the metoer, was able to lol will his way into making enough Jinton for his Lightsaber jutsu to destroy the mokuton/gas. This being after he already fought diedara, Mu, Gengetsu, etc.

Tsunade was just amping them back to full capacity, similar to how Zetsu's spores can heal and reinvigorate one after battle.

Tsunade could have just did that in the first palce instead of Onooki having to be on Ei's back...



> So? First you're gonna have to prove that the chakra dragon constructed and controlled by Sasuke is indeed the speed of lighting.


Kirin is natural lightning, that's the whole reaosn Sauce needed to form the Thunder clouds 

Sasuke himself stated he was out of chakra, and that all he does in the jutsu is guide the charge 

Kirin is a ightning bolt on Steroids, so it's much faster if anything.



> Then you're gonna have to prove how the fastest man of Itachis era is actually slower then Kirin.


Non sequitur. Kirin is not a man, it's a force of nature, so Ei's title is completely irrelevant to lightning speed. Other people in the verse can react to Ei, and they are men. your argument doesn't follow to your conclusion.

We know the base speed for lightning, you have to prove Ei is faster than that.



> Then you're gonna have to prove how Itachi reacts to something even faster than V2 Ay. I agree that itachi can most likely manifest ricbage flash sussano before he gets nailed by V2 Ay


MS Sasuke who is < Itachi reacted to Ei with a jutsu to perfectly defend him form Ei's counter strike.

V2 Ei is the fastest of movement speed which has nothing to do with reaction speed, more non sequitur arguments. He manifested V2 in time for Kirin, and reacted to No knowledge Mukai Tensei (he was literally already making contact with the ground) in time to save Sasuke who was further from him.




> ( depending on the distance), but saying he can react to something faster is simply wank.


Prove Ei moves faster than natural lightning.

Get more valid arguments to prove your point, because I'm not quite sure exactly what you're trying to argue.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Katsuyu can just divide around the sword stabbing her. She divided pretty fast against Manda.




Orochimaru tried that tactic, and only one snake was able to slither away in time.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Orochimaru tried that tactic, and only one snake was able to slither away in time.



Katsuyu divides faster than Orochimaru...


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Katsuyu divides faster than Orochimaru...



She needed Gamabunta's momentary help, and then she was able to split. Totsuka begins like a moment after the target is pierced, and then liquifies them while sealing. Nothing about Katsuyu's reform is saving her from a Gen/Fuinjutsu.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Katsuyu divides faster than Orochimaru...




That's debatable, considering the fact that when Orochimaru was slashed by KN4 his body was already comprised of many snakes. To say that Orochimaru was trying to escape from Itachi undetected would probably be a more convincing argument. The time in which Katsuyu divided against Manda and the time in which the majority of Orochimaru's Yamata form was sealed seem comparable, which is why I think Totsuka would be capable of absorbing a _majority_ of Katsuyu before it splits. If the majority of Katsuyu is gone, the majority of Tsunade's only plausible defense against Amaterasu against gone.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> She needed Gamabunta's momentary help, and then she was able to split. Totsuka begins like a moment after the target is pierced, and then liquifies them while sealing. Nothing about Katsuyu's reform is saving her from a Gen/Fuinjutsu.





Saru said:


> That's debatable, considering the fact that when Orochimaru was slashed by KN4 his body was already comprised of many snakes. To say that Orochimaru was trying to escape from Itachi undetected would probably be a more convincing argument. The time in which Katsuyu divided against Manda and the time in which the majority of Orochimaru's Yamata form was sealed seem comparable, which is why I think Totsuka would be capable of absorbing a _majority_ of Katsuyu before it splits. If the majority of Katsuyu is gone, the majority of Tsunade's only plausible defense against Amaterasu against gone.




Link removed

Orochimaru has never performed a snake division feat at this extent. 

Regardless, even if Katsuyu were to get sucked up, _assuming_ she couldn't get divide fast enough... Tsunade could literally use summoning jutsu again to summon her out of the jug.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Link removed
> 
> Orochimaru has never performed a snake division feat at this extent.




I know which scan you're referring to. Itachi liquefied and absorbed the majority of Orochimaru in a similar amount of time that it took for Katsuyu to divide against Manda. My point with the KN4 bit was about Orochimaru's snake division speed, not scale.




> Regardless, even if Katsuyu were to get sucked up, _assuming_ she couldn't get divide fast enough... Tsunade could literally use summoning jutsu again to summon her out of the jug.




Eh, it doesn't work like that. Otherwise Kabuto would've just re-summoned Nagato.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Link removed
> 
> Orochimaru has never performed a snake division feat at this extent.


And Katsuyu needed an opening to do it.



> Regardless, even if Katsuyu were to get sucked up, _assuming_ she couldn't get divide fast enough... Tsunade could literally use summoning jutsu again to summon her out of the jug.


Baseless, she is being sealed. Kuchiyose doesn't undo seals. See Madara trying to summon Kyuubi with it being in Naruto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 5, 2016)

Itachi wins, mid dif.


We've seen the extend of the damage Tsunade and A together can inflict on Madara's v 1.5 Susano'o. Itachi tanks everything they throw @ him and kill em. He makes short work of Tsunade with Totsuka and A can't hold against the onslaught.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> I know which scan you're referring to. Itachi liquefied and absorbed the majority of Orochimaru in a similar amount of time that it took for Katsuyu to divide against Manda. My point with the KN4 bit was about Orochimaru's snake division speed, not scale.



But Orochimaru didn't really divide. Snakes just came out of his abdomen and attached with his lower half. He didn't literally divide into smaller snakes and meld together like Katsuyu does in that scene. 





> Eh, it doesn't work like that. Otherwise Kabuto would've just re-summoned Nagato.



Pretty sure edo tensei have to return to their coffins to be resummoned.



Dr. White said:


> And Katsuyu needed an opening to do it.



She didn't need anything. What do you think would've happened had Gamabunta not done that? 



> Baseless, she is being sealed. Kuchiyose doesn't undo seals. See Madara trying to summon Kyuubi with it being in Naruto.



Well of course Madara couldn't summon Kyuubi, Naruto was the Kyuubi jinchuriki. 

The gourd isn't like being a Jinchuriki. It just slurps an enemy up and puts them in a genjutsu. There's no mention of it being like a seal that seals bijuu into humans.  I more or less consider it to being trapped in a kamui land with genjutsu.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> She didn't need anything. What do you think would've happened had Gamabunta not done that?


Uhm, Manda would have swalloed her whole? Why do you think kishi wrote that scene with Manda about to swallow her, and Gamabunta coming to save her before she could split? Why'd she get binded in the first place? lmao.




> Well of course Madara couldn't summon Kyuubi, Naruto was the Kyuubi jinchuriki.
> 
> The gourd isn't like being a Jinchuriki. It just slurps an enemy up and puts them in a genjutsu. There's no mention of it being like a seal that seals bijuu into humans.  I more or less consider it to being trapped in a kamui land with genjutsu.


What are you talking about 

It is canonically both a fuinjutsu and genjutsu, one of the strongest in the manga  Jins are made through various Fuinjutsu, so you're arument is complete special pleading to try and make Totsuka look weaker when it's a fact that it's a top tier fuinjutsu  

Also nothing states FTG would work from boxland


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> But Orochimaru didn't really divide. Snakes just came out of his abdomen and attached with his lower half. He didn't literally divide into smaller snakes and meld together like Katsuyu does in that scene.




... Because he wasn't trying to escape like Katsuyu was. He was trying to put himself back together. He turned him self into snakes almost instantaneously. He literally turned his innards into smaller snakes and then stitched them together.




> Pretty sure edo tensei have to return to their coffins to be resummoned.




Seals can't be overwritten by simple Kuchiyose.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm, Manda would have swalloed her whole? Why do you think kishi wrote that scene with Manda about to swallow her, and Gamabunta coming to save her before she could split? *Why'd she get binded in the first place*? lmao.



She got binded in the first place because she's a slug that can't outspeed a snake.

What would swallowing do to Katsuyu? She could just spit acid from inside of Manda and kill him. Or Tsunade could just summon Katsuyu from out of Manda's stomach. Space time jutsu is space time jutsu. 





> What are you talking about
> 
> It is canonically both a fuinjutsu and genjutsu, one of the strongest in the manga  Jins are made through various Fuinjutsu, so you're arument is complete special pleading to try and make Totsuka look weaker when it's a fact that it's a top tier fuinjutsu



Being trapped in the gourd isn't the same as a bijuu being sealed into a human, or a weapon being sealed in a scroll. If they were actually sealed and turned into little black seal notes  and not trapped they wouldn't be in a genjutsu. 



> Also nothing states FTG would work from boxland



Nothing states that it wouldn't work


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> She got binded in the first place because she's a slug that can't outspeed a snake.
> 
> What would swallowing do to Katsuyu? She could just spit acid from inside of Manda and kill him. Or Tsunade could just summon Katsuyu from out of Manda's stomach. Space time jutsu is space time jutsu.


You're ignoring Kishi's bkatant portrayal of her being in danger from Manda's attack. She could have been poisoned or just generally fucked in his stomach, as Tsunade was dealt with on the floor.





> Being trapped in the gourd isn't the same as a bijuu being sealed into a human, or a weapon being sealed in a scroll. If they were actually sealed and turned into little black seal notes  and not trapped they wouldn't be in a genjutsu.


Blatant BS.
A.) Porve your first claim. A sentient being is sealed via Fuinjutusu. *You are special pleading.*
B.) The genjutsu is an added component based on it's theme...Hachibi and Kyuubi clearly still have consciousness inside of their host or wherever they are being sealed, so woud everyone in totsuka except they get to enjoy a blissful existence.




> Nothing states that it wouldn't work


Minato only has feats of teleporting on Earth, not in between dimensions, and the Obito Minato fight would have been tensionless if that were the case. Minato called his superior for many a reason.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> ... Because he wasn't trying to escape like Katsuyu was. He was trying to put himself back together. He turned him self into snakes almost instantaneously. He literally turned his innards into smaller snakes and then stitched them together.



 Suspicious Gooby face

I'm sorry but this isn't the same as what Katsuyu does. 



> Seals can't be overwritten by simple Kuchiyose.



If characters were actually "sealed" and not trapped in the gourd they wouldn't be in a genjutsu.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> If characters were actually "sealed" and not trapped in the gourd they wouldn't be in a genjutsu.



Databook 3

*Spoiler*: __ 



NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI: Susanoo (Mysterious, All-Encompassing Assistance Ability*)
User: Uchiha Itachi
Offensive; Defensive; Close, Medium, Long ranges; Rank: none

Main text

There are two doujutsu the use of which is allowed exclusively to those who have awakened to the clairvoyant eyes of Heaven, the Mangekyou Sharingan: Amaterasu, which speaks of Light and the material world, and Tsukuyomi, symbolizing the spiritual world and Darkness**. Only in them who hold both of those, dwells the power of the wild, rampaging god... Susanoo. The materialized chakra shapes itself after the wargod's commanding face and powerful physique, and the fierce spirit won't subside until the destruction of all the enemies in its line of sight...!!

There's a reason why Susanoo can boast perfect flawlessness in its offense and defense: the spiritual weapons it holds in both hands. The Sword of Totsuka* in its right hand, which will mow down any kind of enemy, and the Mirror of Yata*, upon which all attacks will bounce back. Substantial or spiritual, and then ninjutsu or physical attacks lose all kinds of significance before the god's efficacy.

Captions

-In the pupils that grasp the principles behind Heaven and Earth, dwells the valorous sword-wielding, shield-bearing Aragami***!!

-Protecting its caster, it destroys the enemy!

-In its left and right hands are held the unparalleled, wondrous Sacred Treasures* of virtues miraculous.

Picture comments

-Only those who have carried mastery of Mangekyou Sharingan - the doujutsu feared by those around it as the strongest - to its extremes will come onto the god's territory. A guardian deity to its caster, it eats away their life at the same time.

-The sake flowing out of the gourd assumes the shape of a sword, becoming the Totsuka! In addition, the souls absorbed by it are sealed there.

-The Sword of Totsuka
One swing of the Sword of Kusanagi* has the power to throw the people it stabs into an genjutsu world of intoxicating dreams, and *seal them *away for eternity. *The sword itself carries a fuuinjutsu.

-The Mirror of Yata*
The substance-less spiritual shield. Endowed will all Nature Alterations, it changes its own attributes in response to the attacks it receives, making the jutsu ineffective.



GG.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You're ignoring Kishi's bkatant portrayal of her being in danger from Manda's attack. She could have been poisoned or just generally fucked in his stomach, as Tsunade was dealt with on the floor.



Kishi can portray a character being in danger without them actually being in danger. He portrayed Ei being in danger, but never in a million years in the BD will I say Minato's kunai would pierce Ei's flesh, let alone his shroud.  Katsuyu wasn't in danger.






> Blatant BS.
> A.) Porve your first claim. A sentient being is sealed via Fuinjutusu. *You are special pleading.*
> B.) The genjutsu is an added component based on it's theme...Hachibi and Kyuubi clearly still have consciousness inside of their host or wherever they are being sealed, so woud everyone in totsuka except they get to enjoy a blissful existence.



I saw your databook post. I concede, I thought the world totsuka sent who ever was stabbed was more or less a pocket dimension with genjutsu. Never saw the databook entry.

Regardless, Katsuyu still divides around the sword 




> Minato only has feats of teleporting on Earth, not in between dimensions, and the Obito Minato fight would have been tensionless if that were the case. Minato called his superior for many a reason.



FTG teleports you to wherever your mark is. If Obito can kamui from the afterlife to the living world, then Minato can ftg to wherever is mark is.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Kishi can portray a character being in danger without them actually being in danger. He portrayed Ei being in danger, but never in a million years in the BD will I say Minato's kunai would pierce Ei's flesh, let alone his shroud.  Katsuyu wasn't in danger.


Baseless Assumption. 

we don't know if Minato amped his Kunai in anyway, Bee felt the need to save him, and Ei thanked him despite lol'ing at chidori. So my bet is on Fuuton amp.







> I saw your databook post. I concede, I thought the world totsuka sent who ever was stabbed was more or less a pocket dimension with genjutsu. Never saw the databook entry.


fuinjutsu is the only way they'd get there though regardless, unless you thought Totsuka was a S/T jutsu.


> Regardless, Katsuyu still divides around the sword


Yep, and then Tsunade comes and one shots Susanoo and Itachi. Then Danis revived alongside Nawaki. Katsuyu and Tsunade live the rest of their lvies so happily together.

Drinking the totsuka juice can be so liberating 






> FTG teleports you to wherever your mark is. If Obito can kamui from the afterlife to the living world, then Minato can ftg to wherever is mark is.


NLF, and false equivocation.


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## Amol (Feb 5, 2016)

Is this alive Itachi?
Then why this isn't a stomp thread?
Due to his illness Itachi isn't using MS right on the start and that is just his downfall.
A literally carries Tsunade.
They combines A's speed and Tsunade's strength. They are a team. They will act like a team.
A dodged Ameratsu from Sasuke without any knowledge so it is not going to do anything here.
Totsuka is never touching A and it's peircing power is debatable in relation to RnY.
In the end Itachi eats Tsunade's fist to the face.
Frankly I am giving Duo a mid diff win and that is me being extremely generous to Itachi.


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## ATastyMuffin (Feb 5, 2016)

Alive Itachi gets disassembled. Tsunade powers Ay to v3 and has him blitz Itachi. Good game.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

Amol said:


> Due to his illness Itachi isn't using MS right on the start and that is just his downfall.



He used MS vs Kakashi and some Jounin but won't vs 2 Kage level opponents
?



> A literally carries Tsunade.


What? Why would he do that? Sounds to me like you're trying to think of a way to protect tsunade from Amaterasu...


> They combines A's speed and Tsunade's strength. They are a team. They will act like a team.


So you're basically saying they turn into a Transformer together somehow  How does that at all sound effective to you. They both come at him together, but running seperately.



> A dodged Ameratsu from Sasuke without any knowledge so it is not going to do anything here.


Except create barriers they can't run through, Lol at Tsunade's Regen ( I was right that's why you put her on his back), and Ei can still be hit if he falls for a feint or is put under genjutsu...


> Totsuka is never touching A and it's peircing power is debatable in relation to RnY.


Yeah cause Ei totally can't be put udner a genjutsu from range or close range, or anything. 

Lol at Totsuka not being > Chidori 



> In the end Itachi eats Tsunade's fist to the face.


Yeah cause she is gonna tag him before she eats a sword to the dome.



> Frankly I am giving Duo a mid diff win and that is me being extremely generous to Itachi.


yeahhhhh


----------



## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Baseless Assumption.
> 
> we don't know if Minato amped his Kunai in anyway, Bee felt the need to save him, and Ei thanked him despite lol'ing at chidori. So my bet is on Fuuton amp.



The only baselss assumption you assuming Minato amped his kunai. Sorry, Sasuke's raiton flow sword bounced off Ei's neck. Ei wasn't in danger despite it being portrayed that way. 








> fuinjutsu is the only way they'd get there though regardless, unless you thought Totsuka was a S/T jutsu.



I thought the gourd was like something similar to this



But with infinite tsukiyomi like genjutsu of happiness. However, since it is a sealing jutsu then what's the point of the genjutsu? 



> Yep, and then Tsunade comes and one shots Susanoo and Itachi. Then Danis revived alongside Nawaki. Katsuyu and Tsunade live the rest of their lvies so happily together. Drinking the totsuka juice can be so liberating



The queen Katsuyu divides around the sword, and princess Tsunade flanks Itachi's Susanoo, picks it up, and throws it far away. That is no dream 








> NLF, and false equivocation.



What does NLF mean. 

FTG is a space time jutsu. There is nothing that suggests Minato couldn't teleport out the pocket dimension if he had a tag back on earth.


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> The only baselss assumption you assuming Minato amped his kunai. Sorry, Sasuke's raiton flow sword bounced off Ei's neck. Ei wasn't in danger despite it being portrayed that way.


Not really as it was dangerous to Ei.

Sasuke's Raiton sword bounced off of Ei's neck, but his Raiton hand pierced Ei. Minato can just be better than Sauce.







> I thought the gourd was like something similar to this
> 
> 
> 
> But with infinite tsukiyomi like genjutsu of happiness. However, since it is a sealing jutsu then what's the point of the genjutsu?


Well that is a barrier S/T jutsu. But yeah the genjutsu is for thematic effect, and just because Itachi is heavily related with genjutsu. It also fits with Itachi's empathetic character, and rings from the novels depiction of his murder of his GF.



> The queen Katsuyu divides around the sword, and princess Tsunade flanks Itachi's Susanoo, picks it up, and throws it far away. That is no dream


It appears you're already under a genjutsu


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 5, 2016)

One High Kage vs One High Kage + A Mid Kage.
Who do you think wins?

Itachi =/< Jiraiya confirmed.

With help from A Tsunade can take this easily.

MS Sasuke couldnt hit A with Amaterasu or Genjutsu and had Susanoo broken.
A does the same here. Tsunade boosts his chakra to turn him into V6 Ei


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## Icegaze (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> What is she going to do, hop on his shoulders?
> 
> Armored Susano'o tanks that approach quite comfortably.
> 
> ...



Lol no she touches him and adds chakra to his RCM 

That's all she needs to do. She does have the ability to transfer chakra


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Not really as it was dangerous to Ei.
> 
> Sasuke's Raiton sword bounced off of Ei's neck, but his Raiton hand pierced Ei. Minato can just be better than Sauce.



Minato's plain kunai is not doing more damage than Sasuke's raiton sword. 

Minato's kunai is not doing more than what heavenly transfer did to Ei. 

Naruto is a story, and Kishi can portray that a character is in trouble when logically they aren't in danger. When Madara blindsided Tsunade with a Susanoo sword, people on NF were ACTUALLY theorizing that Tsunade was actually dead... Literally the same chapter she pulled out a new jutsu, people were saying that she was done. Next chapter she karate chopped the sword in half, pushed it out of her, and tried stabbing Madara with it. 




> Well that is a barrier S/T jutsu. But yeah the genjutsu is for thematic effect, and just because Itachi is heavily related with genjutsu. It also fits with Itachi's empathetic character, and rings from the novels depiction of his murder of his GF.



So it is redundant, and only done for thematic effect. Gotcha(this isn't sarcasm even though it sounds like sarcasm)



> It appears you're already under a genjutsu



The only genjutsu is the genjutsu of people believing Itachi is a good character


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## Dr. White (Feb 5, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Minato's plain kunai is not doing more damage than Sasuke's raiton sword.
> 
> Minato's kunai is not doing more than what heavenly transfer did to Ei.


Unless the windwave used a Fuuton 



> Naruto is a story, and Kishi can portray that a character is in trouble when logically they aren't in danger. When Madara blindsided Tsunade with a Susanoo sword, people on NF were ACTUALLY theorizing that Tsunade was actually dead... Literally the same chapter she pulled out a new jutsu, people were saying that she was done. Next chapter she karate chopped the sword in half, pushed it out of her, and tried stabbing Madara with it.


But it still injured her...She was in danger, she just could regen from it...That's completely different than what we are talking about.



> The only genjutsu is the genjutsu of people believing Itachi is a good character


That would be valid if let's say he was a medic who was afraid of blood


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Unless the windwave used a Fuuton



windwave? Anyway, Minato used normal kunai, Ei was portrayed to be in danger, he wasn't. End 




> But it still injured her...She was in danger, she just could regen from it...That's completely different than what we are talking about.



I'm just saying she was portrayed to be in danger when she wasn't(people assumed she would die). Naruto is a story. Just because the scene looks like the character is in danger(Katsuyu and Manda, Ei and Minato)




> That would be valid if let's say he was a medic who was afraid of blood



At least she didn't murder babies, children, and elderly(INB4 Sasuke was the youngest kid in the entire Uchiha clan)


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## Itachі (Feb 5, 2016)

I don't understand why people are saying that Ei's going to be powered by Tsunade though. The dude's fast enough, is she really going to be threatened enough by Itachi to immediately start boosting Ei's RCM? Ei's not going V2 right off the bat either, if I remember correctly Ei went V1 against the guy who he thought had killed Bee, the fucking Hachibi. Ei's not going V2 right away and Tsunade's not going to resort to boosting Ei either.

Itachi may lose by underestimating Raikage's RCM and having his attack countered but if he realises Ei's strengths then he wreaks havoc in Susano'o.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

I also doubt that A would use V2 immediately, or that Tsunade would use Byakugou in that manner immediately. Itachi could definitely keep up with A in V1 IMO, and he could also keep pace with him on foot enough to guard and counterattack without using Susano'o immediately. Itachi is also skilled enough with Karasu Bunshin to preoccupy Tsunade and/or A with a clone briefly while he engages in combat with one or the other. They also lack knowledge on Itachi's ability to cast genjutsu from his finger, which could be used in order to give Itachi more time to strike either Kage with Amaterasu.

Even if A did use his full speed, Itachi would be capable of reacting to A comfortably. 

Itachi can also see the chakra that Tsunade is giving to A with his Sharingan.


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Itachi could definitely keep up with A in V1 IMO, and he could also keep pace with him on foot enough to guard and counterattack without using Susano'o immediately.





[YOUTUBE]-0_sq4m-_V4[/YOUTUBE]


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The marginal speed advantage Itachi has on Sasuke is irrelevant because he's still quite a bit slower than Raikage, and extra intellect would be irrelevant in that situation.




Itachi had the speed to get in B's back without the latter being able to do anything about it until Itachi was already there and issued him a warning. Sasuke, on the other hand, got embarrassed by B multiple times and even lost track of him after a Body Flicker. I think the difference in speed between Itachi and that version of Sasuke is more than "marginal." Superior intellect allows Itachi to not be so reckless as to engage A in CQC without Susano'o.



> You posted scans of A shoving his arm through Jūgo and Sasuke on his way to being powerbombed into the ground. Itachi engaging A in close combat without Susasnoo would be a one-sided massacre. Itachi ducks Elbow, breaks his fist on Raikage's chest, and gets punched in the face.




I posted a scan of Jūgo reacting to A at point-blank range with his arms, and another scan of Sasuke charging at A with Chidori twice without being outsped or counter-blitzed. I didn't say that Itachi would engage A in close combat. I literally just said that he would be using long-range ninjutsu and genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Itachi had the speed to get in B's back without the latter being able to do anything



Itachi flanked a distracted B, then B turned around, blocked Itachi's shuriken, broke his genjutsu, and forced him to retreat with the same swordplay that overwhelmed Sasuke. 



Saru said:


> I posted a scan of Jūgo reacting to A at point-blank range with his arms



What you linked is a scene of Raikage running at Jūgo from a dozen meters away, Jūgo getting his guard up at the last second, and Raikage shoving his fist through said guard and into Jūgo's chest.  



Saru said:


> And another scan of Sasuke charging at A with Chidori twice without being outsped.



Sasuke avoid exactly one blow from Raikage before being absolutely obliterated in taijutsu. 



Saru said:


> I didn't say that Itachi would engage A in close combat. I literally just said that he would be using long-range ninjutsu and genjutsu.





Saru said:


> Itachi could definitely keep up with A in V1 IMO, and he could also keep pace with him on foot enough to guard and counterattack without using Susano'o immediately.


----------



## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Itachi flanked a distracted B, then B turned around, blocked Itachi's shuriken, broke his genjutsu, and forced him to retreat with the same swordplay that overwhelmed Sasuke.




Distracted by what? Nagato's Kuchiyose? Weak excuse. Especially since B was just as slow on the uptake after Itachi's Katon blocked B's LOS prior. Let's not forget the fact that B also had a _vocal warning_ both times. Like I said, Itachi's decisively faster than Sasuke.




> What you linked is a scene of Raikage running at Jūgo from a dozen meters away, Jūgo getting his guard up at the last second, and Raikage shoving his fist through said guard and into Jūgo's chest.




Do you see Jūgo's hands up prior to A throwing that punch? Because I don't. Regardless, Itachi is far above the likes of Jūgo both in physical speed and in reflexes. Let's not forget that Suigetsu was also able to intercept A's attack _after_ coming out of C's genjutsu. B was also able to intercept A's attack and guard Naruto when A was lunged at KCM Naruto with lethal intent (I'm sure you know the feat). Itachi should be able to tango with A for a bit without using Susano'o and not get murked, especially with Karasu Bunshin and genjutsu thrown into the mix.




> Sasuke avoid exactly one blow from Raikage before being absolutely obliterated in taijutsu.




That was because he was right next to A with his hand in his chest. Itachi won't have that problem. You're also neglecting the fact that if A was so much faster than Sasuke in movement speed, he should've been able to slip around Sasuke and body him right away. Interestingly enough, that didn't happen.

I'm not sure why you quoted me. Keeping up with someone and counterattacking doesn't imply CQC. When I said "guard" I didn't mean Itachi would be blocking his punches or anything. Perhaps a more appropriate word would've been "avoid."


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

If by "tangoing" you mean running away and hiding, then sure. If it means actually going on the offensive, which is probably what you do mean, then Raikage feeds Itachi his own ballsack. Itachi wouldn't even be able to put a scratch on A without the Mangekyō. A runs up to him and chops him in half. It was a crow clone? The real one flanks and spits Gōkakyū in Raikage's face? When the fire clears, Raikage is not there. Suddenly he blindsides Itachi and chops him in half. Alternatively, while the fireball is blocking Itachi's view, Raikage ignores the fire and runs his fist into Itachi's face at 300km/s.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If by "tangoing" you mean running away and hiding, then sure. If it means actually going on the offensive, which is probably what you do mean, then Raikage feeds Itachi his own ballsack. Itachi wouldn't even be able to put a scratch on A without the Mangekyō. A runs up to him and chops him in half. It was a crow clone? The real one flanks and spits Gōkakyū in Raikage's face? When the fire clears, Raikage is not there. Suddenly he blindsides Itachi and chops him in half. Alternatively, while the fireball is blocking Itachi's view, Raikage ignores the fire and runs his fist into Itachi's face at 300km/s.




Yeah, A's not running through or ignoring Gōkakyū no Jutsu. He would have to dodge it or otherwise change his offensive approach in a predictable manner. You are definitely on that fanfic flow now. By tangoing, I mean making strategic movements from close to mid-range, attacking here and there, and looking for an opporunity to use genjutsu. As is Itachi's usual style.

A would never be able to touch Itachi as long as he had enough stamina for Susano'o.


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## Rocky (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah, A's not running through or ignoring Gōkakyū no Jutsu.  He would have to dodge it or otherwise change his offensive approach in a predictable manner.



It wouldn't even breach the Raikage's armor. It would do absolutely no damage whatsoever. So yeah, he could ignore it if he wanted to, but I've addressed what would happen if Raikage chose to dodge it instead. 



Saru said:


> By tangoing, I mean making strategic movements from close to mid-range, attacking here and there, and looking for an opporunity to use genjutsu. As is Itachi's usual style.



You're bullshitting around right now. That paragraph could not _be_ any more broad. 

But it's whatev'. I already told you what would happen if Itachi distracted with a clone and flanked. 



Saru said:


> A would never be able to touch Itachi as long as he had enough stamina for Susano'o.



I know that.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 5, 2016)

This'll eventually come down to Ay vs Itachi since the moment he figures out nothing less than Ama/Totsuka is putting them down, Tsunade is done for.

Ay himself can avoid eye contact, dodge Ama, and evade Totsuka while keeping Itachi constantly on the defensive with Susano'o and burning up his stamina in doing so. The issue is the ever present threat of non ocular genjutsu/crow clone feints followed by attempted Totsuka blitz/Ama snipe.

Still, I see Ay and Tsunade triumphing more times than not.


Itachі said:


> I don't understand why people are saying that Ei's going to be powered by Tsunade though. The dude's fast enough, is she really going to be threatened enough by Itachi to immediately start boosting Ei's RCM? Ei's not going V2 right off the bat either, if I remember correctly Ei went V1 against the guy who he thought had killed Bee, the fucking Hachibi. Ei's not going V2 right away and Tsunade's not going to resort to boosting Ei either.
> 
> Itachi may lose by underestimating Raikage's RCM and having his attack countered but if he realises Ei's strengths then he wreaks havoc in Susano'o.


Ay went V2 against Sasuke the second he knew he was using the Mangekyo, and C pretty much confirmed his intentions were specifically to counter the Mangekyo with his speed. Ay _will_ go V2 right off the bat based on that alone, since he knows Itachi has MS.


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It wouldn't even breach the Raikage's armor. *It would do absolutely no damage whatsoever.* So yeah, he could ignore it if he wanted to, but I've addressed what would happen if Raikage chose to dodge it instead.







Based on what? When has A _ever_ survived a direct, full-body Katon? At best he runs through Itachi's Gōkakyū, loses an arm, and has his punch cockblocked by V1 Susano'o.




> You're bullshitting around right now. That paragraph could not _be_ any more broad.
> 
> But it's whatev'. I already told you what would happen if Itachi distracted with a clone and flanked.




I mean, do want me to write a fanfic? Cuz I will. 

Gōkakyū no Jutsu, Suiryūdan no Jutsu, Sharingan Genjutsu, Utakata (Finger Genjutsu, which A possibly has no knowledge on), Karasu Bunshin, Bunshin Daibakuha... These are all jutsu that Itachi can use in mid-range range to throw A off his game and eventually lead to Itachi's preferred method of ending a battle--putting A in genjutsu. A has quick movement, taijutsu, and...That's about it. Believe it or not, I'm not trying to say that A's method of combat is effective. However, Itachi has a number of options at mid-range and close-range that A simply does not have, and his only way of countering them is to dodge (although perhaps he could shrug off a Suiryūdan). At the same time, Itachi can create a small numbers advantage with Karasu Bunshin to make avoiding eye contact or activation of Utakata extremely difficult for A.

Meanwhile, Tsunade gets roasted by Amaterasu.


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## Bonly (Feb 5, 2016)

Saru said:


> Based on what? When has A _ever_ survived a direct, full-body Katon? At best he runs through Itachi's Gōkakyū, loses an arm, and has his punch cockblocked by V1 Susano'o.



Itachi got hit by Sasuke's CS2 Katon in the arm and only came out with some burns rather then a missing arm or anything. I don't think Itachi fireball is more powerful then Sasuke's CS2 Goryuka's so I don't think A is likely to lose an arm, he might get some burns but that's about it and if he was pretty unfazed by Ama flames constantly burning his arm I doubt a fireball is gonna do to much of anything.


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## Bringer (Feb 5, 2016)

*@Saru*


KN1 Naruto jumped through Sasuke's fire style
The Shinobi alliance tanked Madara and Obito's katon with Kyuubi shroud
Shin from Naruto gaiden survived Base god Sasuke's katon
Itachi got hit by one of curse mark Sasuke's katon's in his arm and only got minor burns
Asuma didn't look that bad after Hidan reversed his katon on him




Hussain said:


> Better question would be who can NOT survive katon?


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## Saru (Feb 5, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Itachi got hit by Sasuke's CS2 Katon in the arm and only came out with some burns rather then a missing arm or anything. I don't think Itachi fireball is more powerful then Sasuke's CS2 Goryuka's so I don't think A is likely to lose an arm, he might get some burns but that's about it and if he was pretty unfazed by Ama flames constantly burning his arm I doubt a fireball is gonna do to much of anything.




That's different than taking a direct hit, though. The flames seem to have barely touched him, and Itachi was clothed. Even Amaterasu doesn't always burn through clothing quickly, and I wouldn't call Amaterasu a non-threat.




BringerOfChaos said:


> KN1 Naruto jumped through Sasuke's fire style




Itachi's Katon >>> Sasuke's Katon. The size and power of a technique vary depending upon the user.




> The Shinobi alliance tanked Madara and Obito's katon with Kyuubi shroud




You mean the shroud that took the Juubi's maelstrom to diffuse? And let fodder Hyūga ninja push away Juubi fists? Well yeah, I guess so.




> Shin from Naruto gaiden survived Base god Sasuke's katon




Barely. 

And I doubt Sasuke was trying to kill him with that Katon. Or he'd be dead.




> Asuma didn't look that bad after Hidan reversed his katon on him




Asuma's Katon isn't an actual ball of fire. Tsunade with Byakugou already activated had her arms scorched by Madara's Katon in the brief moment it took for her to knock it aside.

***​
My point in refuting all of this being that I don't see A jumping through a Katon like it isn't there with no injuries. A non-Mei-sized-Suiton? Sure. But not Gōkakyū no Jutsu. Even if it did do only minor damage, Itachi would be able to react to A's punch with Susano'o quite comfortably and attempt to place him under genjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 6, 2016)

Empty Konoha at 20m?

Itachi opens with a Katon and clone feints them while he goes and hides in the surrounding environment. He can use his crows to scout the area and track their movements; Tsunade might try to do the same with Katsuyu. Itachi then proceeds to use his kunai-curving hax and clones to disorient them until he can get into position to cast Amaterasu, which they will never see coming.

If he gets lucky, he can hit them both; if he only gets one, then he takes down the remaining one with the Totsuka Blade Assassin's Creed-style.

High difficulty.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Ei picks up Tsunade and they become the ultimate lightening bruiser.  I don't really care if they win or not after that or if this is even in character.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> Based on what? When has A _ever_ survived a direct, full-body Katon? At best he runs through Itachi's Gōkakyū, loses an arm, and has his punch cockblocked by V1 Susano'o.



Support your own point first. A cannon fodder Shin survived a fireball from Jesus Sasuke. Itachi's fireball hasn't murdered anything at all. Raikage can catch Chidoris with his chest muscles and wears a lightning suit that deflects super-vibrato swords. He was standing there with his arm bathed in the flames of Amaterasu, and there weren't any apparent burns on his hand when he severed it. Gōkakyū will do _nothing._ Raikage could walk out in a speedo with a beach chair and sunbathe in Itachi's Gōkakyū.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Support your own point first. A cannon fodder Shin survived a fireball from Jesus Sasuke. Itachi's fireball hasn't murdered anything at all. Raikage can catch Chidoris with his chest muscles and wears a lightning suit that deflects super-vibrato swords. He was standing there with his arm bathed in the flames of Amaterasu, and there weren't any apparent burns on his hand when he severed it. Gōkakyū will do _nothing._ Raikage could walk out in a speedo with a beach chair and sunbathe in Itachi's Gōkakyū.




Of course the burns weren't apparent. His arms were covered in black flames. The part of his hand that had no burns weren't. 

What's more absurd is the fact that you think Shin can actually survive a Katon from Sasuke if he's trying to do serious damage. The same Sasuke who destroys meteors with Chidori.

The claim that A will take no damage _at all_ is just unjustified IMO.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

No, it isn't. Chidorigatana did nothing. Chidori did nothing. Heavenly Transfer did nothing. The black flames did no _damage_, but A had to remove his arm because they wouldn't go away. Your turn. What the hell has fireball jutsu accomplished?

Even if you want to assume that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill the Shin that was attacking his daughter because reasons...that's still EoS Sasuke, and he was still blasting a cannon fodder Shin. Jobbing Jesusuke > Itachi, RCM Raikage >>> Fodder Shin.  

Fireball jutsu has done fuck all to mostly everything. I have no idea why Raikage would break that pattern. Until I witness Gōkakyū working where Chidori-laced Kusanagi failed, I will continue to assert that Raikage tans in Gōkakyū.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't. Chidorigatana did nothing. Chidori did nothing. Heavenly Transfer did nothing. The black flames did no _damage_, but A had to remove his arm because they wouldn't go away. Your turn. What the hell has fireball jutsu accomplished?
> 
> Even if you want to assume that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill the Shin that was attacking his daughter because reasons...that's still EoS Sasuke, and he was still blasting a cannon fodder Shin. Jobbing Jesusuke > Itachi, RCM Raikage >>> Fodder Shin.
> 
> Fireball jutsu has done fuck all to mostly everything. I have no idea why Raikage would break that pattern. Until I witness Gōkakyū working where Chidori-laced Kusanagi failed, I will continue to assert that Raikage tans in Gōkakyū.




Chidori actually pierced A's RnY and his flesh... But your attempt to minimize the damage done is interesting. A tans in Gōkakyū? Yeah, that seems like pure wanking to me. That A > B > C logic is also horrendously flawed because it ignores context. Gōkakyū no Jutsu burns craters into the earth with its sheer force alone. To say that it is a non-threat to A is frankly unreasonable. 

I guess Amaterasu is non-threat too since it took so long to burn through Karin's clothing. 

Tsunade can likely heal the damage anyway; I'm not sure why this is a sore point for you.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't. Chidorigatana did nothing. Chidori did nothing. Heavenly Transfer did nothing. The black flames did no _damage_, but A had to remove his arm because they wouldn't go away. Your turn. What the hell has fireball jutsu accomplished?
> 
> Even if you want to assume that Sasuke wasn't trying to kill the Shin that was attacking his daughter because reasons...that's still EoS Sasuke, and he was still blasting a cannon fodder Shin. Jobbing Jesusuke > Itachi, RCM Raikage >>> Fodder Shin.
> 
> Fireball jutsu has done fuck all to mostly everything. I have no idea why Raikage would break that pattern. Until I witness Gōkakyū working where Chidori-laced Kusanagi failed, I will continue to assert that Raikage tans in Gōkakyū.



So far no one has been able to tank Amaterasu. Not even Juubi.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Even the Hachibi received burns from an Uchiha Katon. I'm not sure why A would be immune to them. 

... Maybe he won't necessarily lose an arm, but he's certainly going to take damage.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachi =/< Jiraiya = Tsunade
Itachi < MS Sasuke =/< Raikage
This is unbalanced
Itachi gets destroyed
Tsunade made a mega Jinton when she was on low reserves -at full power think how much she could amplify Raiton cloak
How fast would Raikage be then?


Dr. White said:


> She needed Gamabunta's momentary help, and then she was able to split. Totsuka begins like a moment after the target is pierced, and then liquifies them while sealing. Nothing about Katsuyu's reform is saving her from a Gen/Fuinjutsu.



No Orochimaru had time to say a whole sentence and Nagato had a convrsation with Naruto
The sealing isnt that quick
There is time to do something


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> Chidori actually pierced A's RnY and his flesh... But your attempt to minimize the damage done is interesting.



Chidori pierced the armor and got stuck in Raikage's peck. The wound it gave him wasn't even deep enough to cause blood to run down his chest. 



Saru said:


> A tans in Gōkakyū? Yeah, that seems like pure wanking to me. That A > B > C logic is also horrendously flawed because it ignores context. Gōkakyū no Jutsu burns craters into the earth with its sheer force alone. To say that it is a non-threat to A is frankly unreasonable.



_Unreasonable?_ 

Itachi's arm received minor burns from a CS Sasuke fire dragon. Sasuke's Chidorigatana would cut through Itachi's arm like warm butter. Sasuke's Chidorigatana reflected off of A's armor. Add it all up.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> The sealing isnt that quick
> There is time to do something




Speech bubbles are a _terrible_ measuring stick for time elapsed, honestly.



Rocky said:


> Chidori pierced the armor and got stuck in Raikage's peck. The *wound* it gave him wasn't even deep enough to cause blood to run down his chest.




So you admit that the Raikage can be wounded. Now I'm getting somewhere.




> _Unreasonable?_
> 
> Itachi's arm received minor burns from a CS Sasuke fire dragon. Sasuke's Chidorigatana would cut through Itachi's arm like warm butter. Sasuke's Chidorigatana reflected off of A's armor. Add it all up.




The flame barely touched him, and Itachi was clothed... That's different than Itachi running into Sasuke's Katon. Do you think Itachi would receive minor burns from something that busted through a roof and was created for the explicit purpose of building up enough heat to use Kirin if he _ran through it_? I don't.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

comparing heat wounds to piercing wounds? People are still made of water, so if your roast them they risk cell death that way. The brain is especially vulnerable to prolonged temperatures at very high temperatures.

That being said any fireball under Katon: Great Fire Dragon (the one Sauce used to create Clouds)  gets swatted by Ei, and he can definitely still survive the latter.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> So you admit that the Raikage can be wounded. Now I'm getting somewhere.



Yeah, lightly wounded by a direct Chidori. 



Saru said:


> The flame barely touched him



It engulfed his arm, and his skin was burned. [1]

Chidorigatana would take Itachi's arm clean off. 



Saru said:


> and Itachi was clothed...



Are you shitting me.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Are you shitting me.




Sadly, I'm not. Karin was able to survive Amaterasu being on her clothes for a bit, as was one of the samurai at the Kage Summit. Logically, Sasuke's Katon would not be much better at burning through clothing.

Do note that Shin, your other example, still had clothes that were only burned (not burned off) after receiving Sasuke's Katon directly to the back.





This is Shounen. Clothes standing up to powerful attacks is nothing new.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Okay, but they don't provide any exceptional durability either. Shirtless Itachi would have received around the same amount of damage from Gōryūka, lol. I still have no idea what Gōkakyū has done to suggest it'd melt away Raikage's armor, let alone burn his skin underneath of it too. Raikage's armor is tougher than everything in Itachi's arm combined, so if Senjutsu Gōryūka didn't reduce it to ashes, Gōkakyū won't be getting through RCM.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

I don't think A would lose an arm, but I don't think that he would be able to _bathe_ in Gōkakyū no Jutsu either. We're probably just going to have to agree to disagree.

Itachi can comfortably react to something like that with Susano'o and bat A away regardless, and any damage received from Gōkakyū could be healed by Tsunade. The crux of my argument was that Itachi can go toe-to-toe with A without immediately resorting to the powers of the Mangekyou, using long-range and mid-range jutsu in tandem with Karasu Bunshin to place A under genjutsu.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

He can probably use Susanoo to block A's attack after A runs through Gōkakyū, yes.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 6, 2016)

I can't believe people are unironically arguing in favor of a Katon doing something, let alone against one of the most durable people in the manga.

Sasuke with a CS2 wing literally laughed off a direct hit from Itachi's Gogakyu, and Ay shits all over that in durability. Ay is also the kind of man to lunge directly in the path of Chidori, chop Amaterasu, and drop kick Kagutsuchi.

Unless it's being used as a diversion, a Gogakyu is doing jack shit.


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> That's different than taking a direct hit, though. The flames seem to have barely touched him, and Itachi was clothed. Even Amaterasu doesn't always burn through clothing quickly, and I wouldn't call Amaterasu a non-threat.



Itachi himself may have barely been hit but his whole entire arm was covered in flames and all he got was some burns. A's Raiton armor acts like, well an armor and he already has a tough body so him losing an arm or something doesn't seem to likely to happen if hit by a fireball.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Didn't tsunade slap away katon ??

A or tsunade slap away itachi entirely useless katon


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

VolatileSoul said:


> Sasuke with a CS2 wing literally laughed off a direct hit from Itachi's Gogakyu, and Ay shits all over that in durability.


You mean the dude wh ate a punch from Juugo, and tanked a C2 bomb in said form?



> Unless it's being used as a diversion, a Gogakyu is doing jack shit.


That's why bee used Same to eat Itachi's katon, and used partial trans to stop his other KAton.


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## KeyofMiracles (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> You mean the dude wh ate a punch from Juugo, and tanked a C2 bomb in said form?
> 
> 
> That's why bee used Same to eat Itachi's katon, and used partial trans to stop his other KAton.



Yup. The same dude who is not as durable as Ay. I really hope you aren't going to advocate the point that Ay gets hurt by Katon when Chidori only gave him a flesh wound. Chidori>>Itachi's Katon.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Yup. The same dude who is not as durable as Ay. I really hope you aren't going to advocate the point that Ay gets hurt by Katon when Chidori only gave him a flesh wound. Chidori>>Itachi's Katon.



A.) I wasn't attacking this in the context of it hurting Ei, rather is argument for making Katon all around not a threat.
B.) Base Ei would 100% get hurt, and if he was bathed in Katon he would suffer heat damage. Those two things aren't debatable.
C.) Not sure why you comparing Heat damage to piercing damage. 

also I already said my piece. Ei can swat away most fireballs except the Great Fire Dragon technique, and he can't just tank that (if he didn't have the option of blocking it).


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Base A stood there with his arm on fire with Amaterasu and yelled at Gaara. Lesser fire is not hurting him.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Base A stood there with his arm on fire with Amaterasu and yelled at Gaara. Lesser fire is not hurting him.



Ei's response to Pein = his body's ability to not be damaged by heat.

Shisui ripped his eyes out and then stood there smiling at Itachi while calmly falling into a waterfall titanic style, Naruto casually stabs himself in the hand like 15 times in pt. 1, yet a kunai will clearly still kill him.

damage soak and endurance are different than durability.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

His body would barely be damaged if at all, and he wouldn't be in pain, so...it isn't hurting him. Like, fireball jutsu barely did anything to Sasuke covering himself with a Curse Seal wing.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> His body would barely be damaged if at all, and he wouldn't be in pain, so...it isn't hurting him. Like, fireball jutsu barely did anything to Sasuke covering himself with a Curse Seal wing.



Okay? Cursed Skin is completely independant of sasuke's Body, and could tank C2 explosion. Something Base Ei is not tanking. So...

I think Cloaked Ei could take great Fireball, he just couldn't lol swipe it away (it busted through layers of solid concrete, and had enough force to keep going and enough heat to change the atmosphere)and the heat would effect him.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> [C2 is] something Base Ei is not tanking. So.



C2 isn't doing shit to A, cloak or no cloak.

And Amaterasu reduced Sasuke's wing to powder in a few seconds. A stood there with his arm covered in Amaterasu for longer than that, and the skin on his hand was still intact when he severed it. Fireball justu would do nothing to him.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

I agree with Dr. White. A can certainly take a Gōkakyū and survive, but I don't see him leaping through one like it's not there and taking _no damage_ whatsoever. That's a stretch. Tsunade probably could do it because of Byakugou. Sasuke's CS2 wing could take it because the Powers of the White Snake improved his regeneration factor considerably. A doesn't have these regenerative properties.

High pain tolerance is not indicative of durability either.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

It's not a stretch. Call me when Gōkakyū hurts anything on Raikage's durability tier.


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

This katon is a fucking dumb topic 
Tsunade slapped them away from Madara no less 

Itachi katon is fodder level here A ignores it all together


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> C2 isn't doing shit to A, cloak or no cloak.


Prove it.



> And Amaterasu reduced Sasuke's wing to powder in a few seconds. A stood there with his arm covered in Amaterasu for longer than that,


Not really, and not really.



> and the skin on his hand was still intact when he severed it. Fireball justu would do nothing to him.


this is just a bunch of non sequitur. I guess Karin's back, and Samurai Armor is some top tier shit now.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Call me when Gōkakyū hurts anything.



It was a fixer upper.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 6, 2016)

Sasuke's dragon flame bomb barely burnt Itachi's arm.

Only Madara's fire dragons can kill Ei, and only when he really means it.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Itachi was barely exposed for a moment, and lost his top tier amaterasu life saving akatsuki cloak, and burnt his arm up. Little misleading you compare that damage to be engulfed by the concrete busting long range fireball of environmental change.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Prove it.



C2 doesn't have the feats to hurt him. I don't have any reason to believe that it's more harmful than Heavenly Transfer's effect on the body. 



Dr. White said:


> Not really, and not really.



Sasuke's wing gets caught, and he falls to the ground. On the next page, Itachi turns off Amaterasu, walks over, and Sasuke's wing is powder. [1]

A swings into Sasuke and covers his hand in Amaterasu. Then, he jumps up for guillotine drop and is intercepted by Gaara. He hops over to Darui & C, and Temari & Kankurō team up to remove the burning armor from the Samurai. Gaara encourages the Samurais to stay out of ninja business for their well-being, and the Samurai thanks him. Raikage asks Gaara why he interfered, and Gaara tells him that he would have been further injured by the black flames, and he (Gaara) also wanted to ask Sasuke a question. A grunts in annoyance and severs his arm. When it falls to the ground, the skin on his hand is still intact. 

There is your goddamn direct comparison. A's _skin_ > Sasuke's Curse Seal Wing.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> C2 doesn't have the feats to hurt him. I don't have any reason to believe that it's more harmful than Heavenly Transfer's effect on the body.


It has portrayal to hurt Ei, and Ei has never tanked a blast as such. He also chose to not get hit by Juug's chakra laser.

Not sure why tearing damage caused by acceleration is being compared to a blockbuster bomb though.


> Sasuke's wing gets caught, and he falls to the ground. On the next page, Itachi turns off Amaterasu, walks over, and Sasuke's wing is powder. [1]
> 
> A swings into Sasuke and covers his hand in Amaterasu. Then, he jumps up for guillotine drop and is intercepted by Gaara. He hops over to Darui & C, and Temari & Kankurō team up to remove the burning armor from the Samurai. Gaara encourages the Samurai to stay out of ninja business for their well-being, and the Samurai thanks him. Raikage asked Gaara why he interfered, and Gaara tells him that he would have been further injured by the black flames, and he (Gaara) also wanted to ask Sasuke a question. A grunts in annoyance and severs his arm. When it falls to the ground, the skin on his hand is still intact.


You basically are just using the free motion of talking to make longer time gaps. Itachi walking over to Sasuke, from the time he was tagged is plenty of ocmparable time, to Ei being stopped by Gaara and going over to C.

Lets not forget the conversations had mid Gai vs Madara confrontation and the multiple other examples of talking during extremely short periods of time. Listing everyone's dialouge isn't helping much. Even if their is a difference, it's completely negligible in the grand scheme.

This is still damage soak and endurance.


> There is your goddamn direct comparison. A's _skin_ > Sasuke's Curse Seal Wing.


That didn't prove anything. Especially not that Ei can tank katons or Bakuton with absolutely no damage or trouble.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

A without RnY is not taking C2 explosions with no damage whatsoever...


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## Icegaze (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> A without RnY is not taking C2 explosions with no damage whatsoever...



True but itachi katon is shit tier damage wise by comparison


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## Santoryu (Feb 6, 2016)

Casual Sannin-defeating genjutsu is used to efficiently take out Tsunade. Susano protects Itachi whilst he identifies Ei's rash nature to charge in and punishes him with a MS finisher.


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## Saru (Feb 6, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> True but itachi katon is shit tier damage wise by comparison




The only time we've seen it actually hit someone is when the target had high-level durability and regen and Itachi was jobbing.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Saru said:


> A without RnY is not taking C2 explosions with no damage whatsoever.



He'd probably have injuries similar in severity to the ones he had after going through Heavenly Transfer. Chidori could not tear through this man's chest muscles. Chidori is a heap of powerful raiton chakra concentrated into the space of Sasuke's hand and slammed into Raikage at Sasuke's full speed. It gave him little cut. The widespread force of the bakuton chakra in C2 isn't even going to draw blood.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

And most of it's penetrative force was thwarted by Ei's armor. Chidori would kill Ei without it.


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## Pompey magnus (Feb 6, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> Casual Sannin-defeating genjutsu is used to efficiently take out Tsunade. Susano protects Itachi whilst he identifies Ei's rash nature to charge in and punishes him with a MS finisher.



No man. i actually think that Tsunade Has a better chance of breaking out of genjutsu than any normal sannin. Her forehead seal chakra and normal absurd chakra control breaks her out. Genjutsu probably falls to the raikage while Itachi amaterasu's her to death. Bith of them simply cannot threaten Itachi in any significant way. Itachi in full serious mode kills them both high diff, out of respect.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> And most of it's penetrative force was thwarted by Ei's armor. Chidori would kill Ei without it.



The armor is thin and Raikage's chest is literally right behind it, so Sasuke's hand would have not decelerated enough to matter. What stopped Sasuke's hand in its tracks were the Raikage's chest muscles. Chidori could not cut through them.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The armor is thin and Raikage's chest is literally right behind it, so Sasuke's hand would have not decelerated enough to matter. What stopped Sasuke's hand in its tracks were the Raikage's chest muscles. Chidori could not cut through them.



that's irrelevant. Chidorigatana bounced off of his shroud, he's completely immune to regular weapons even more so cause they can't pierce the shroud, the shroud took the brunt of chidori, and even here you can see it's pretty concentrated. Kishi even calls it a


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 6, 2016)

Ei with boosted speed was able to damage Madara's susanoo which is stronger than Itachi's , I think thats something to think about because outside of Totsuka the two Kages shouldn't have much to worry about in Itachi's arsenal , Itachi hasn't been portrayed as someone who can take out two veteran kages at the same time especially a speedster and a powerhouse


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> that's irrelevant. Chidorigatana bounced off of his shroud, he's completely immune to regular weapons even more so cause they can't pierce the shroud, the shroud took the brunt of chidori, and even here you can see it's pretty concentrated. Kishi even calls it a





The armor is durable, but still incredibly thin. It's like an extra layer of skin, which is why Raikage can still lift people and brofist while he's wearing it. When Sasuke rammed Chidori into it, he got through a hand-sized portion of it in one motion and was immediately halted by the muscles in Raikage's left peck. The armor didn't take the "brunt" of Chidori. Chidori isn't a bomb. It's more of a spear. You've got a panel of Sasuke's hand, still _bathed_ in Chidori, being pushed into Raikage's chest and failing to cut any deeper into him than that.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


A already showed how it's extremely concentrated.



> It's like an extra layer of skin, which is why Raikage can still lift people and brofist while he's wearing it.


It's like armor.



> When Sasuke rammed Chidori into it, he got through a hand-sized portion of it in one motion and was immediately halted by the muscles in Raikage's left peck.


Nah, we saw Chidori spark like a muh, indicating their was a struggle.



> The armor didn't take the "brunt" of Chidori. Chidori isn't a bomb. It's more of a spear. You've got a panel of Sasuke's hand, still _bathed_ in Chidori, being pushed into Raikage's chest and failing to cut any deeper into him than that.


Yes it did. I already explained this is why Chidori Gatana bounced off, doing nothing to Ei's skin. Chidori is not that much better.

If you try to ram a lance through armor you can still pierce through, buut the motive force pushin the penetration is going to be drastically halted as it has to spend most of the energy breaching the first defense, especially if it has good defensive properties. The residual force left over is what launched Chidori into his breast plate. 
See the following example (3:00 mark) to illustrate my point, there is a reason Chidori needs run up to increase thrust.
[YOUTUBE]E8vFfDuG-iA[/YOUTUBE]


Chidori would have went through his skin bruh if he wasn't cloaked.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

That lance is being stopped because that guy needs all of his power just to get the tip of the damn thing through. The lace immediately grows wider, so the part of the armor that wasn't pierced stops the rest of it from going through. That is not what happened with Chidori. If that armor in the video was as thin as A's (but kept its durability), whoever was wearing it would still take the full brunt of the spear tip that pierced. Sasuke's _entire Chidori_ pierced A's armor, not just the tip of his middle finger.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That lance is being stopped because that guy needs all of his power just to get the tip of the damn thing through. The lace immediately grows wider, so the part of the armor that wasn't pierced stops the rest of it from going through. That is not what happened with Chidori.


Okay, and so did Sasuke. That's the point of Kishi drawing the big as spark behind chidori, and the reason Raiton Kusa did jack. Sauce needed all his power and more concentration to get minimal effect.

Your secondary argument is moot too because the human hand does the same thing, chidori's point is much more concentrated than the area around Sauce's palm. The back of the spearadds reinforcement so it doesn't snap and acts as a backbone once piercing has occurs to push through with more force.

The lance didn't have enough energy to keep going once it busted the metal sheet, same thing with Chidori excpet it had enough to go an inch or two in Ei's chest.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

Sasuke literally used his palm when debuting the technique. 

Chidori doesn't have a "point." The whole hand is equally sharp. The guy in that video only had enough force to make a tiny hole in the armor with the point of his spear. Sasuke's Chidori made a hand-sized hole in A's armor and was then stopped by A's chest. His Chidori was not stopped because he could not push the rest of it through Raikage's armor. He was already past that.


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke literally used his palm when debuting the technique.
> 
> Chidori doesn't have a "point." The whole hand is equally sharp. The guy in that video only had enough force to make a tiny hole in the armor with the point of his spear. Sasuke's Chidori made a hand-sized hole in A's armor and was then stopped by A's chest. His Chidori was not stopped because he could not push the rest of his through Raikage's armor. He was already past that.



I was wrong about that, but Sasuke clearly made his hand into a knife shape, similar to three finger nukite, hence why his finers thrust into his chest.

Getting through the armor took a ton of motive force from Chidori though this is the point. I don't see how this could be argued, the remaining force (after the armor broke) was only enough to thrust a couple inches into his chest.

Sasuke using Chidori on bare chest Ei would do much better, and be no where near how deep he got in that instance.


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## Rocky (Feb 6, 2016)

What do you think it was that decelerated Sasuke's hand from the speed it pierced the armor at?


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## Bringer (Feb 6, 2016)

It's funny how fire style has been so garbage in the manga that people have to argue it's not garbage tier


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2016)

Rocky said:


> What do you think it was that decelerated Sasuke's hand?



The resistance of Ei's shroud durability. Sasuke hand launch only has so much acceleration, having to go through armor that's durable is going to stop his acceleration and therefore affect he force pushing into Raikage.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

...let's say Sasuke's Chidori thrust needs to have a velocity of X in order to pierce Raikage's armor. If he hits Raikage with his Chidori going at X, then it is going to pierce the armor going at X. Since Raikage's chest is literally right behind his armor, Chidori has no time to decelerate from X before contacting Raikage's chest. So it pierced his skin going at X, and continued on to Raikage's muscles which are right behind his skin. It then decelerated to _zero_ because Raikage's chest muscles were thicker than both his armor & skin and too tough. That isn't going to change if Raikage doesn't wear his armor.


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## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ...let's say Sasuke's Chidori thrust needs to have a velocity of X in order to pierce Raikage's armor. If he hits Raikage with his Chidori going at X, then it is going to pierce the armor going at X. Since Raikage's chest is literally right behind his armor, Chidori has no time to decelerate from X before contacting Raikage's chest. So it pierced his skin going at X, and continued on to Raikage's muscles which are right behind his skin. It then decelerated to _zero_ because Raikage's chest muscles were thicker than both his armor & skin and too tough. That isn't going to change if Raikage doesn't wear his armor.



That isn't how it works, unless it's facing something with literally negligible resistance like clothing to chidori. It's like saying someone who is ejected out of a car would not be slightly decelerated because of the force required to break the windshield, even if they do break the shield and fly some distance further.

It takes energy or work to get through his armor. Just like it does for regular armor. Ei's shroud is significantly durable and of the same element as Chidori. It got decelerated alot because it met a force that was comparable to itself, and even though it won, the residual force was no where near it's prime state, prior to having to bust through RCM. A really sharp sword with A rank Raiton flow (remember what raiton did to a pencil?) bounced off of Raikage's shroud. There is no way chidori is of such a greater magnitude that it bust through his shroud without resistance.

It's similar to chainmail IMO. Even if a sword can break through the max force of chainmail can go before one gets injured, the resulting thrust is going to lose force because of the armor.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Raikage's armor is too thin. Nothing the size of a human hand that penetrates it would be exposed to the material long enough to slow down before reaching Raikage's chest.


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## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

except armor/chainmail..


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## StarWanderer (Feb 7, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Itachi is going to need to finish this off as quickly as possible, before he collapses, because he is activating his Susanoo in the first second of the fight, when Ay rushes at him, and can't activate it or he's dead.
> 
> He kills Tsunade thanks to Amaterasu, but won't be able to hit Ay with anything, and after he can't hold his Susanoo anymore, he's going to die.
> 
> Kage-duo wins high diff.



Ei cant use V2 for long time periods. It depends on who exhausts first.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> *Raikage's armor is too thin.* Nothing the size of a human hand that penetrates it would be exposed to the material long enough to slow down before reaching Raikage's chest.




Say what?

The thickness of Raikage's armor doesn't matter as much as how resistant it is to impact. Especially in Shonen.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't really understand what you guys think happened. If I extend my arm into something as fast as I can, it isn't going to be slowed down until it runs into something it cannot puncture.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Resistance is a type of force. If that resistant force is greater than the one being applied to it, the imbalance in force will cause a change in state of motion.

Everything's not always about speed, Rocky. 

And again, this is Naruto, not RL. If Kishimoto has A make a comment on Sasuke piercing A's RnY, then obviously the takeaway is that A's RnY provides great resistance.


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## Dr. White (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't really understand what you guys think happened. If I extend my arm into something as fast as I can, it isn't going to be slowed down until it runs into something it cannot puncture.



Naw dude. You are arguing vs physics. If you bust your hand through a wall to punch me, it's going to be less effective than just punching me straight tin my face. Resistance, work needed, and deceleration are all factors here at play physics wise and they aren't just going away.

If his shroud was strong enough to bounce Raiton Kusa, then it wasn't some neglible dfense, the fact Ei is impressed, and the fact Kishi captioned it a battle of lightning with Chodori going all spark plug, all indicate it was heavily diluted by his shroud. It's pretty cut and dry. Ei would die if he tried to tank Chidori head on.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> If Kishimoto has A make a comment on Sasuke piercing A's RnY, then obviously the takeaway is that A's RnY provides great resistance.



...are you serious? 



Dr. White said:


> You are arguing vs physics. If you bust your hand through a wall to punch me, it's going to be less effective than just punching me straight tin my face.



If the wall is as thin as paper and you put your nose up to it on the other side, I don't think there will any meaningful difference in the force my fist hits the wall with and the force my fist hits your face with.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

> Raikage's armor is too thin.



The raitons diffused each other.  So the actual chidori that poked his skin wasn't a super lightening blade, but a butter knife attached to a AA battery.


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## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ...are you serious?
> 
> 
> If the wall is as thin as paper and you put your nose up to it on the other side, I don't think there will any meaningful difference in the force my fist hits the wall with and the force my fist hits your face with.




Entirely serious. Study physics (actually, please don't unless you find mental anguish pleasurable). There's also the possibility that the Raiton canceled out in some way.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The raitons diffused each other.  So the actual chidori that poked his skin wasn't a super lightening blade, but a butter knife attached to a AA battery.



But I already posted the scan. Sasuke's hand was still soaked in Raiton chakra.





Saru said:


> Entirely serious. Study physics (actually, please don't unless you find mental anguish pleasurable). There's also the possibility that the Raiton canceled out in some way.



Give me the equation then. Or just explain it. I want to learn what I am missing.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

It has raiton chakra.  It's dull and bleh instead of sharp and pointy.

People should post this scan instead of youtube videos I've already seen.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi was barely exposed for a moment, , and burnt his arm up.



.....wut?

He got shot in the arm.  If the arm was his whole body it wouldn't be exposed for any longer.  



> and lost his top tier amaterasu life saving akatsuki cloak



What?



> Little misleading you compare that damage to be engulfed by the concrete busting long range fireball of environmental change.



....

NANI!?

...............

I'm going to forget everything you just said and post this again for everyone.


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## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> It has raiton chakra.  It's dull and bleh instead of sharp and pointy.
> 
> People should post this scan instead of youtube videos I've already seen.



A was impressed that Sasuke was able to touch him through his lightning armor because Chidori got though the lightning armor and rammed into A....

His Chidori was not diffused. The scan is pretty clear.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

I can't find the ancient scan that supposedly mentions diffusion the KC talked about back when I didn't know what a Raikage was, so I'll stick with "really something."


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

If Chidori were dulled by hitting Raikage's armor, how would that scan even look any different?



Sadness on Wheels said:


> .....wut?
> 
> He got shot in the arm.



He barely evaded it. The temperature was simply high enough that it burnt him anyway.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> A was impressed that Sasuke was able to touch him through his lightning armor because Chidori got though the lightning armor and rammed into A....
> 
> His Chidori was not diffused. The scan is pretty clear.



iyo would Kakashi's raikiri have the same impacy on Deva after it sludged through Asura than if it just hit Deva? y/ne

iyo did Sasuke's chidori have the same effect on Gaara after it went through his sand ball than if it just hit Gaara? ye/nine


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I can't find the ancient scan that supposedly mentions diffusion the KC talked about back when I didn't know what a Raikage was, so I'll stick with "really something."



That's really something is A being impressed at Sasuke's super stabby hand ramming into his chest as opposed to deflecting off of his armor.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> iyo would Kakashi's raikiri have the same impacy on Deva after it sludged through Asura than if it just hit Deva? y/ne
> 
> iyo did Sasuke's chidori have the same effect on Gaara after it went through his sand ball than if it just hit Gaara? ye/nine



If Asura & Gaara's sand ball were worn by Tendō & Gaara respectively like an extra layer of skin, then yes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If Chidori were dulled by hitting Raikage's armor, how would that scan even look any different?
> 
> 
> 
> He barely evaded it. The temperature was simply high enough that it burnt him anyway.



His arm was clearly inside.



The sound effect is, "touching."


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> If Asura & Gaara's sand ball were worn by Tendō & Gaara respectively like an extra layer of skin, then yes.



That's a bad answer, because it's a non-answer.  Not an answer.  Use answers.  Be honest.  If you're not you're wasting people's time.  Don't waste people's time.  Feel free to ignore me if you're going to be like that.  (Don't be like that.)


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> But I already posted the scan. Sasuke's hand was still soaked in Raiton chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




The strength of A's RnY and his net opposing force is simply great enough for Sasuke's hand to stop accelerating and thus lose force.

Force = [Mass] ? [Acceleration]

Mind you, this doesn't account for magical ninja lightning and how those forces interact and such. Honestly, if it's ninja science, Orochimaru would be able to explain it far better than I could. Applying RL logic to the manga fails at this level.




Rocky said:


> That's really something is A being impressed at Sasuke's super stabby hand ramming into his chest as opposed to deflecting off of his armor.




Yeah, because he expected the Chidori to be _deflected_ from his _resistant_ armor.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

Let's try rephrasing this . . . did the Raikage's Raiton coated chop fail to cause any serious damage  to Sasuke because: 

*(A)* Sasuke is a durability machine
*(B) *the Raikage is physically weak
*(C)* Both A and B
*(D)* most of the chop's impact power was absorbed by the Susano'o ribcage

Choose the best answer.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Ijust scanned this thread.  There are maybe 2 pages of posts talking about the actual match.  The rest of it is talking about katons and shrouds and chidori in a devolving chain of intellectual depression, where both sides take increasingly exaggerated positions to not give on a point.

I blame this entirely on people saying basic fireballs will pose a viable threat to Ei and Tsunade.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

I have no regrets.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 7, 2016)

Didn't Tsunade punch away a bunch of fireballs similar to _Goryuuka_?


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> That's a bad answer, because it's a non-answer.  Not an answer.  Use answers.  Be honest.  If you're not you're wasting people's time.  Don't waste people's time.  Feel free to ignore me if you're going to be like that.  (Don't be like that.)



I'm really not being disingenuous. 

I do no understand what I am missing. Like, Gaara actually does wear sand armor like an extra layer of skin. What do you think would happen if Sasuke rammed a Chidori into his chest?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Didn't Tsunade punch away a bunch of fireballs similar to _Goryuuka_?



That was mentioned on page two and four.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Empathy said:


> Didn't Tsunade punch away a bunch of fireballs similar to _Goryuuka_?




She punched away flames that looked smaller than Itachi's Gōkakyū no Jutsu and received burns with Byakugō no Jutsu activated. Everyone has unanimously agreed that the damage received from Gōkakyū no Jutsu would not be enough to seriously injure A or Tsunade. But to say that either Kage can jump through them with no damage whatsoever is a stretch. If that happened in the manga, A would at least likely have burns, and Tsunade would get toasted brown but recover nonetheless.

Then the discussion switched over to A's ability to bathe in flames and take C2 with no damage without Raiton no Yoroi  activated.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I'm really not being disingenuous.
> 
> I do no understand what I am missing. Like, Gaara actually does wear sand armor like an extra layer of skin. What do you think would happen if Sasuke rammed a Chidori into his chest?



I'll believe you...this time.

We subtract the power chidori expended on breeching the armor's resistance and then see if it has enough left over to defeat Gaara's durability.

Attack Power of Chidori-Armor Rating of Sand-Gaara durability=Damage



Rocky said:


> I don't really understand what you guys think happened. If I extend my arm into something as fast as I can, *it isn't going to be slowed down until it runs into something it cannot puncture.*



The problem is here.  You aren't accounting for resistance.  If you dive into a pool, you will penetrate the water, because you can puncture water.  But you will encounter resistance from the water, and it will slow you down, and you'll get slower and slower.  After so many feet of water, you will come to a complete stop.  You might stop before you even hit the bottom of the pool.

In your head, you're saying, "I can penetrate the water, so it's the same as diving into an empty pool.  I won't stop until I hit the bottom, and I'll hit it just as hard if there's water or not."


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

I don't think that Gokakyu can penetrate through Ei's Raiton no Yoroi, though it should do some sort of damage to him in base.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> The strength of A's RnY and his net opposing force is simply great enough for Sasuke's hand to stop accelerating and thus lose force.



Can you explain this in steps? If Sasuke's hand needs to be going at a certain velocity (Sasuke's full speed) to breach A's cloak, how is it suddenly slowing drastically after going through?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Don't really think Kishi took all this into account lads, all we can take from it is that Ei's Raiton no Yoroi is so powerful that Chidori only just about penetrated him.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The problem is here.  You aren't accounting for resistance.  If you dive into a pool, you will penetrate the water, because you can puncture water.  But you will encounter resistance from the water, and it will slow you down, and you'll get slower and slower.  After so many feet of water, you will come to a complete stop.  You might stop before you even hit the bottom of the pool.
> 
> In your head, you're saying, "I can penetrate the water, so it's the same as diving into an empty pool.  I won't stop until I hit the bottom, and I'll hit it just as hard if there's water or not."



You're only slowing down because your body has to travel through a bunch of water, though. Like, if I dove into a pool filled with only an inch of water, I'm hitting the bottom with around the same force that I hit the water with. Sasuke did not have to Chidori through a foot of lightning armor to reach Raikage's chest. It covers his body like skin...


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Can you explain this in steps? If Sasuke's hand needs to be going at a certain velocity (Sasuke's full speed) to breach A's cloak, how is it suddenly slowing drastically after going through?




See, you keep going back to speed. The reason that Sasuke's hand penetrates from A's armor has more to do with speed alone. If Sasuke's hand went through A's RnY, it would not stop moving, but it would stop accelerating. However, you're neglecting both the strength of whatever structure holds RnY together (which requires energy to break) and whatever effect Sasuke's Raiton flow has on the ability of his hand to penetrate.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

Yes, the Chidori pushed through the shroud enough to penetrate the Raikage's skin, but it is being actively pushed back against by the shroud, which is still active.  Think of the shroud like a super strong rubber band.  With effort you'll bend it but you won't be pushing it with the same power you did upon initial impact hitting a given threshold.

The defensive power of the Raiton shroud is not linked to it's so called "deepness" but the amount of chakra that is actively generated by the Raikage to fuel it (ninja magic).  And no, it's not an inch, at least not in V2 form.  It is literally the same exact situation with the Raikage busting through Sasuke's ribcage Susano'o and failing to hurt him.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> See, you keep going back to speed. The reason that Sasuke's hand penetrates from A's armor has more to do with speed alone. If Sasuke's hand went through A's RnY, it would not stop moving, but it would stop accelerating. However, you're neglecting both the strength of whatever structure holds RnY together (which requires energy to break) and whatever effect Sasuke's Raiton flow has on the ability of his hand to penetrate.



Sasuke's hand wouldn't have been _accelerating_ though. Chidori is performed at one's top speed, so Sasuke should have rammed into Raikage at his fastest velocity he is capable of moving at. If he then breaches the armor with his Chidori still intact, then the speed at which he was moving, the mass of his hand, and then magical energy forming Chidori should all be the same as they were before hitting the armor.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> The only time we've seen it actually hit someone is when the target had high-level durability and regen and Itachi was jobbing.



Cs2 wing<<<<<raiton armour 

Tsunade only barely had her arm charred from slapping 6 katon from Madara 

Itachi katon have no relevance in this match 

Ay is simply a lot more durable than tsunade even in base


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Even if he uses top speed, Chidori's going to lose some potency, no? Remember Orochimaru defending against KN4's Bijudama with Sanju Rashomon?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 7, 2016)

Yoko's analogy with Sasuke's ribcage vs. Ay's chop is a good one.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke's hand wouldn't have been _accelerating_ though. Chidori is performed at one's top speed, so Sasuke should have rammed into Raikage at his fastest velocity he is capable of moving at. If he then breaches the armor with his Chidori still intact, then the speed at which he was moving, the mass of his hand, and then magical energy forming Chidori should all be the same as they were before hitting the armor.




You're assuming that Sasuke's Chidori was used at Sasuke's maximum hand speed. A logical assumption, but an assumption nonetheless. 

You didn't take the resistant force of A's armor into consideration. That would significantly lower the force of Sasuke's Chidori once it reached A's flesh. You're also making assumptions about the "magical energy" that are not supported, like the assuming that Sasuke's Raiton still being visibly present means that all of the energy associated with it before breaching the RnY is still there. 

Again, *ninja magic.*



Icegaze said:


> Cs2 wing<<<<<raiton armour
> 
> Tsunade only barely had her arm charred from slapping 6 katon from Madara
> 
> ...




I disagree entirely. Itachi's Katon aren't going to be ignored. Even when things aren't obviously a serious threat, people tend to dodge them. If either of Tsunade or A jump through the flames (A is probably the more likely), Itachi can block with Susano'o and attempt genjutsu. I find A dodging Itachi's Katon a far more likely outcome. He certainly wouldn't bathe in it.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Sasuke's Susanoo has a thicker defensive aura, like, by far. 



A's lightning aura is...pretty thin.



Imagine if you were to take Sasuke's head and rest it in the crevice of the middle rib on the left. What do you think would happen to Sasuke if Raikage swung into Susanoo then?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky, put on a boxing glove and punch a brick wall.  Tell me if the padding doesn't make a difference because it's thin and next to your hand.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

That sounded kind of mean.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Boxing gloves are still thick...

If I put on a rubber glove and punch a wall, what happens?


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Is Rocky arguing that Ei's Raiton Shroud has no resistive qualities?


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Essentially, that's what it looks like. It seems like he's arguing that A's durability without RnY is so far greater than that of RnY that RnY's resistance is negligible in comparison. Which I strongly disagree with.

I mean, it's called "Lightning Style Armor" for a reason.

A's body is durable too, but I don't think that the resistance RnY provides is at all negligible in comparison.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> A's lightning aura is...pretty thin.




Sasuke didn't stab Raikage's fist.  He stabbed Raikage's torso.  I've already provided scans showing its depth and here is another one.  That isn't an inch.  And as I said, depth is irrelevant - the amount of chakra that is pumped into it is.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Yoko's right, Eiso's thin but it can still cut through a large amount of obstacles due to the Chakra that it consists of.

Naruto also used a pretty thin amount of aura to block Amaterasu, iirc.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Is Rocky arguing that Ei's Raiton Shroud has no resistive qualities?



ITT people think Chidori can cut through Raikage's "" body like butter. Somehow, the paper-thin portion of Raikage's armor that Sasuke breached provided enough resistance to slow his hand to a crawl before it hit Raikage's chest.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ITT people think Chidori can cut through Raikage's "" body like butter. Somehow, the paper-thin portion of Raikage's armor that Sasuke breached provided enough resistance to slow his hand to a crawl before it hit Raikage's chest.



Dude, Ei was surprised that Chidori _even penetrated_ his armour.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

*Interpretation One*:  Kakashi is super, ultra, duper, mega uber durable right up there with both Raikages because his hands weren't pierced by thirty feet worth of Raiton Gian when he was only using several inches of Raikiri to protect either of his hands. 

*Interpretation Two*:  Although there is a massive size difference, the quality and power of the chakra Kakashi puts into each of his Raikiri exceeds Raiton Gian's branches despite the size disparity, allowing Kakashi to effectively block it and sustain no damage despite his jutsu being smaller.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Or interpretation 3 it was a combination of both the diffusing effect and durability, in the case of Raikage.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> ITT people think Chidori can cut through Raikage's "" body like butter. Somehow, the paper-thin portion of Raikage's armor that Sasuke breached provided enough resistance to slow his hand to a crawl before it hit Raikage's chest.




Bro, it's not all about speed. 

It's about *ninja magic* too. I'm really not trying to BS you with an ambiguous answer either. If A didn't have RnY, I think Chidori would have done more serious damage as well. I don't think it would have stopped where it did. A never fights without RnY active anyway, so it's not a hugely important detail.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Sasuke didn't stab Raikage's fist.  He stabbed Raikage's torso.  I've already provided scans showing its depth and here is another one.  That isn't an inch.  And as I said, depth is irrelevant - the amount of chakra that is pumped into it is.



The scan of his fist is showing you that the lightning aura you see around him doesn't actually interact with the characters. Minato's nose was not inverted by the piece of aura that rammed into him at A's top speed. A's _fist_ was the actual threat. The protective "armor" is like an extra layer of skin. 



Saru said:


> I mean, it's called "Lightning Style Armor" for a reason.



It's actually not called that.


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Pretty sure "yoroi" means "armor" when translated literally. I think ViZ translated it to something different for reasons I do not know.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Boxing gloves are still thick...
> 
> If I put on a rubber glove and punch a wall, what happens?



Having hit a stone wall and a heavy bag with just a , it makes a significant difference.  I've also used thin cotton bandages and work gloves and would pick all of them over bare fists.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 7, 2016)

Wasn't A surprised that Sasuke was able to penetrate his raiton shroud ? If he has so much trust in it, then it should provide significant defense. Or at least A thinks it does.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Feb 7, 2016)

The thickness of the defense doesn't matter, it's the durability of the should itself. And based on everything we've seen, Lightning Armor is durable as heck. There's a reason Ay was impressed.

I bet Kyūbi Chakra Mode has a thin-ass, skin-layer shroud. Doesn't stop it from protecting Naruto from most attacks that would absolutely _flatten_ him in base, like Han's kick.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wasn't A surprised that Sasuke was able to penetrate his raiton shroud ? If he has so much trust in it, then it should provide significant defense. Or at least A thinks it does.



Yup, this is my take on it. Chidori penetrated Ei's RnY and was still powerful enough to permeate Ei's skin. To me, that suggests that Ei's RnY is the main factor in his durability since it should have been significantly weaked but it was still powerful enough to penetrate Ei's skin. Without RnY Ei would have been penetrated very deeply by Chidori imo.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 7, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That sounded kind of mean.





Between this and my last post I'm going to sound like I have anger problems.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The protective "armor" is like an extra layer of skin.
> 
> It's actually not called that.



Pretty rough translation from DB regarding RCM.



> Raiton Chakra Mode
> 
> Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu. From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, *the jutsu durability is like that of armor*. The Raikages' application of it causes their combat power to rise considerably.
> 
> It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Saru said:


> Pretty sure "yoroi" means "armor" when translated literally. I think ViZ translated it to something different for reasons I do not know.



It was given an official name in the last Databook. It's now called "Lightning Release Chakra Mode." 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Wasn't A surprised that Sasuke was able to penetrate his raiton shroud ? If he has so much trust in it, then it should provide significant defense. Or at least A thinks it does.



It _is_ a sturdy defense. Sasuke's lightning sword went flying off of it. It's just stupid thin, so if somebody hits Raikage with an attack capable of breaching his armor, he's going to be exposed to that attack's full force. If it was an energy attack, his cloak may diffuse some of it...but Sasuke's Chidori . 

So, if the armor was:

Too weak to (noticeably) diffuse Sasuke's Chidori.
Too thin to slow Sasuke's hand down before reaching Raikage's chest.

...then where exactly is the resistance coming from?


----------



## Saru (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It was given an official name in the last Databook. It's now called "Lightning Release Chakra Mode."




Okay.

But you have to acknowledge A's shock when the armor was penetrated and it was referred to as armor multiple times in both the manga and the databook.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

What Saru said, Ei wasn't surprised at his body being penetrated _after_ RnY but he was surprised at Chidori penetrating RnY in the first place.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

Do you think I think A's _skin_ is more durable than his armor? No lol. It's the muscles in his chest. They are what slowed Sasuke's hand down to zero. If Chidori could chop through them like toilet paper, Sasuke would have just pushed his arm the rest of the way through Raikage.


----------



## Yoko (Feb 7, 2016)

Not if the Raiton armor is actively pushing back against Sasuke's hand, which is what I believe is to have happened.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

Blood shouldn't have been drawn if there was any armor there to even push back.

A gap can't push anything like that.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Do you think I think A's _skin_ is more durable than his armor? No lol. It's the muscles in his chest. They are what slowed Sasuke's hand down to zero. If Chidori could chop through them like toilet paper, Sasuke would have just pushed his arm the rest of the way through Raikage.



Do you think that Ei's muscles are more durable than his RnY?


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

I think cutting through his lightning coated skin is easier than cutting through the muscle in his chest. That was kind of the thing with the Third Raikage, which is who A inherited his tough physique from. They were cutting into his skin, but the wounds weren't deep enough to put him down. Only the Ippon Nukite could tear all the way through him.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

Sandaime didn't seem to have RnY activated though.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 7, 2016)

It wasn't activated because they didn't have an issue blowing it off of him.

They had an issue with injuring his actual body, even when they teamed up.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 7, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It wasn't activated because they didn't have an issue blowing it off of him.
> 
> They had an issue with injuring his actual body, even when they teamed up.



That's true, I don't think that Yondaime can be granted the same resilience durability though.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 7, 2016)

I think that was the point of mentioning that A inherited his father's abnormal toughness and then sending him through the 3rd Raikage-only Jutsu unscathed. Like hey, maybe this guy is kind of close to his dad at surviving things.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 7, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It was given an official name in the last Databook. It's now called "Lightning Release Chakra Mode."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Imagine yourself plunging a sword into the chest of a guy wearing chainmail armor. As thin as it is, it is going to absorb most of the impact.   A sword that could potentially go through the chest and come out from the back of a naked person, won't be able to penetrate as much with the protection provided by the chainmail.

When Sasuke's hand made contact with Raikage's chest, the armor had aborbed some of the impact by then and slowed Sasuke's advance down. 

Momentum is everything for piercing attacks. Anything that slows it down will reduce the amount of penetration. That is a scientific fact.


----------



## Turrin (Feb 7, 2016)

Tsunade + Ei would finally equal out to Rocky's Perception of Ei. Tsunade would boost Ei's RNY & Shunshin w/ Byakugo to epic proportion and hit people w/ an absurd amount of force. I can't really see Itachi beating them.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 7, 2016)

Itachi's fine if he doesn't fight them directly. Using the environment and ambushing them is the right approach to win this, and he can do it.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2016)

@saru Genin naruto had no issues bathing in katon 
Gaara had no issues bathing in katon 

A can replicate such a feat against katon , considering we have seen what a stronger katon I.e Madara can do to a person who has a much weaker body than A 

Him doing it is entirely pointless what is it going to do . Give him a cough 

Let's stop the pointless katon wank

Kishi shat on it the moment he had tsunade slap Madara katon


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

How am I wanking by saying that Itachi's Katon is a threat? 

Tsunade still got burns from Madara's Katon, which were smaller than Itachi's Goukakyuu, so she's not bathing in it either.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 8, 2016)

I am actually not sure how A deals with heat. I don't think RCM provides any heat defenses and as tough as his exterior is, if he gets exposed to fire for a considerable amount of time, he will cook from the inside.

With that said, I am fairly certain that A would be able to tank a Gokakyu if he has to. He wouldn't want it but he can do it.

As far Itachi's gokakyu goes, we know that it can leave burn marks on Sasuke's CS wing. So it is likely that a butt naked person with no special defense will get seriously hurt if he/she is hit by it.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 8, 2016)

A normal person is going to get roasted by Itachi's Gokakyu, clothed or not. It's a giant fireball, lol.



Ei tanks it with no trouble as long as he has RnY up.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> How am I wanking by saying that Itachi's Katon is a threat?
> 
> Tsunade still got burns from Madara's Katon, which were smaller than Itachi's Goukakyuu, so she's not bathing in it either.



Smaller katon doesn't mean weaker 

Madara has stronger chakra


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

He was also jobbing, so...


----------



## Jad (Feb 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> He was also jobbing, so...



His soul was also being torn from his body. That has to count for something in terms of power output. We know what Madara's Katons look like. They are Alliance Shinobi grouped up threatening level.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> He was also jobbing, so...



So jobbing
Makes the katon inherently weaker 

Common mate 

If tsunade can slap 6 katon 

Ay shits on itachi katon


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

Well, yes, the size and power of Katon can be controlled by the user.

Hence Shin not being incinerated by EoS Sasuke's Katon...


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

Madara had no reason to use an especially weak Katon, nor is there any evidence that he did. Considering the fact that Madara's Ryūen Hōka took the same shape as the Gōryūka instead of a spread out flame like Gōkakyū, it would have suggested the opposite.


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

Well, he had no reason to job either, yet he did. And there's evidence of that.

Tsunade would be able to survive Goukakyuu, but I doubt that she would slap it away like she did Madara's smaller Katon.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

Approaching it casually isn't the same thing as deciding to launch especially weak moves. Focusing the shape increases the potency of Katon because it becomes more like hitting a target with a bullet (in comparison). Compression should also make it hotter, logically, which is probably why Gōryūka's entry emphasizes the power and temperature of it (Madara's Katon is more or less another version of that technique).


----------



## Saru (Feb 8, 2016)

We could speculate about the intensity of those Katon, but we know for a fact that Madara wasn't trying his hardest in that battle.

On the other hand, Itachi's Goukakyuu burned craters into the earth, so it would probably pack quite a punch if Tsunade decided to try slapping it away.


----------



## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

We also know that Gōkakyū is a weaker variation of Katon, because of the lack of shape manipulation.


Burning a crater is something Bell Test Sasuke could do _(1)_.


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## Icegaze (Feb 8, 2016)

Saru said:


> We could speculate about the intensity of those Katon, but we know for a fact that Madara wasn't trying his hardest in that battle.
> 
> On the other hand, Itachi's Goukakyuu burned craters into the earth, so it would probably pack quite a punch if Tsunade decided to try slapping it away.



The jutsu Madara used was the same one Sasuke used to set up Kirin which is stronger and a higher rank with better feats than itachi featless great fire ball


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## FlamingRain (Feb 8, 2016)

By the way I'm pointing this stuff out to support the point that Raikage with the protection afforded by his Raiton aura would be able to tank Gōkakyuū no problem.


I think the lack of shape manipulation involved in that technique compared to other Katons would mean it wouldn't simply be slapped away in the same manner, unless Raikage knew partial expansion.


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