# juubi in it first stage vs hashirama



## rubberguy (Apr 14, 2013)

If hashirama wins then he compete with the second stage and how would ems madara w/ kyuubi do?
Scenerio 2
both with their vote ability vs current juubi


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2013)

rubberguy said:


> If hashirama wins then he compete with the second stage and how would ems madara w/ kyuubi do?
> Scenerio 2
> both with their vote ability vs current juubi



the first stage juubi took this attack  with little to no damage.  In its second stage, it can survive having its far more powerful bijuudama explode from within itself without taking major damage.

Hashirama's jet gattling is going to be like a back massage to it.

At the same time, laserdama can't be caught and erases multiple mountain ranges and overpowers 9 mountain-busters without losing momentum.  I don't see how Hashirama has a chance.


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## Joakim3 (Apr 14, 2013)

Lets see... Hashi lacks the firepower to harm Datara and has zero way of defending _Juubidama_..... moral of the story, Hashirama gets fodder nuked into nothingness

/thread


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## Lurko (Apr 14, 2013)

Jubbi is on a different level, jubbi wins.


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 14, 2013)

Hashi wins. He puts it to sleep 

But really, his cells control Juubi.


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## Lurko (Apr 14, 2013)

Oh boy I hope your joking.


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## Big Mom (Apr 14, 2013)

At this point, it is impossible for any single individual outside of the Rikkudo Sennin to compete with the Juubi in any form.

His Bijuudama Laser completely overpowered the combined Multi Bijuudamas from both the Hachibi and the Kyuubi. 

He casually flicked away the Hachibi's Bijuudama 

And he blitz/manhandled the Kyuubi and Hachibi 

His feats put him far above every single character in the manga (bar Rikkudo Sennin, though we don't know the stipulations of their match).


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## Luftwaffles (Apr 14, 2013)

Obd lurker said:


> Oh boy I hope your joking.


Maybe. Maybe not.


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## Magician (Apr 14, 2013)

Juubi slaughters. Hashi doesn't have anything to put him down.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 14, 2013)

hashirama has superiority over the juubi in its 1st stage.

the blast of the juubis laser only reaches twice the height of a mountain.


shinsuusenju is 10x bigger than mountains so shinsuusenju being one-shotted is out of the question. 


the body of shinsuusenju tanked something superior to naruto and bees bijudama. it tanked 11 mountain busters combined with 11 mountain range cutters. it had not one scratch on it.


the bijudama that it tanked were bigger than the mokujin which is comparable to the body of the 100% kyuubi in size.


these bijudama were infused with PS blades and shinsuusenju still wasnt scratched. 

hashirama can also hypothetically put it to sleep and then seal it.


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## tanman (Apr 14, 2013)

They're at similar levels of offense, but then there's the Juubi's durability which is...
[undefined]
The biju have always been quite durable and could only really be finished with some kind of seal.
The Juubi being the sum of all that durability seems to make it quite formidable, so much so that we've yet to see an attack in the manga that would threaten, let alone defeat the Juubi.


I'm _highly_ skeptical of Hashirama sealing the Juubi whose chakra has been described as unquantifiable, but we'll find out soon.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashirama has superiority over the juubi in its 1st stage.



Nope.



> the blast of the juubis laser only reaches twice the height of a mountain.
> 
> 
> shinsuusenju is 10x bigger than mountains so shinsuusenju being one-shotted is out of the question.



*A.)* Not every mountain in the Narutoverse is equal or similar in size.
*B.)* Size =/= durability.
*C.)* Even basing off the ShinSusenju's size off the mountains, the adjacent trees would have to be kilometres in height for the statue to be anywhere remotely as impressive as you're suggesting. You're better off using a panel of it with Kyuubi to support your premise. 



> the body of shinsuusenju tanked something superior to naruto and bees bijudama. it tanked 11 mountain busters combined with 11 mountain range cutters. it had not one scratch on it.



*A.) *Perfect Susano'o's blade is not what grants it mountain-level destructive capacity; it's entirely a strength feat. It's not like you can 'combine' the DC of a single Bijuudama with the DC of a slash with Susano'o; the blade is only there to prevent Hashirama from blocking it.
*B.)* A regular Bijuudama is 4 gigatons. Tanking eleven would mean 44+ Gt durability for the ShinSusenju, but BM Naruto/Bee's combined Bijuudama was clocked in the teraton range, 2.61 to be exact.

That's more than 500 regular Bijuudama condensed in a single blast, mind you.



> the bijudama that it tanked were bigger than the mokujin which is comparable to the body of the 100% kyuubi in size.



Where are you getting that the BD were bigger than Mokujin, from that page?



> hashirama can also hypothetically put it to sleep and then seal it.



That's if Juubi lets him.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 14, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Nope.



yes



> *A.)* Not every mountain in the Narutoverse is equal or similar in size.
> *B.)* Size =/= durability.
> *C.)* Even basing off the ShinSusenju's size off the mountains, the adjacent trees would have to be kilometres in height for the statue to be anywhere remotely as impressive as you're suggesting. You're better off using a panel of it with Kyuubi to support your premise.


1. the mountains that the juubis laser destroyed were smaller than the mountains that shinsuusenju were shown to dwarf.
2. too bad shinsuusenju has the durability feats to go with its size.
3.no they dont. the mountains that the juubi obliterated look smaller than the ones that shinsuusenju dwarfed.



> *A.) *Perfect Susano'o's blade is not what grants it mountain-level destructive capacity; it's entirely a strength feat. It's not like you can 'combine' the DC of a single Bijuudama with the DC of a slash with Susano'o; the blade is only there to prevent Hashirama from blocking it.



the force that a bijudama was ejected from the kyuubi sent it across an entire ocean. the force is enough. the swords in the bijudamas and the bijudamas made contact with shinsuusenju and it wasnt destroyed.


> *B.)* A regular Bijuudama is 4 gigatons. Tanking eleven would mean 44+ Gt durability for the ShinSusenju, but BM Naruto/Bee's combined Bijuudama was clocked in the teraton range, 2.61 to be exact.


i dont care about OBD calcs. the crater from naruto and bees bijudama is smaller than the explosion from the PS/bijudama barrage.


> That's more than 500 regular Bijuudama condensed in a single blast, mind you.



i dont care about random calcs. i use on panel evidence.



> Where are you getting that the BD were bigger than Mokujin, from that page?


on the bottom panel, you can see some bijudama and they are bigger than the mokujin.




> That's if Juubi lets him.


ummm, no.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 14, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> 1. the mountains that the juubis laser destroyed were smaller than the mountains that shinsuusenju were shown to dwarf.



You know this how?

Remember, those nearby trees were shown to be almost as big as those 'mountains', if not hills. Again, said trees would have to be *kilometres* in size to lend any sort of credence to your notion. Use scaling for the Kyuubi in this panel, otherwise your argument is of no merit.



> 2. too bad shinsuusenju has the durability feats to go with its size.



I don't doubt that, but saying ShinSusenju can tank the Juubi's laser on the basis of it being bigger than said laser is one heck of a fallacious claim. That logic follows the ridiculous thinking of, again, 'size = durability'.

Your reasoning doesn't fly, is what I'm saying.



> 3.no they dont. the mountains that the juubi obliterated look smaller than the ones that shinsuusenju dwarfed.



'Look' smaller? Where the heck is the proof for this?

What a flimsy-ass claim, they 'look' smaller to you therefore it means they are concretely smaller. You see, these are exactly what calcs are for, to definitively prove size/destructive capacity/speed, etc., with solid evidence instead of the baseless nonsense that you're frequently churning out.



> the force that a bijudama was ejected from the kyuubi sent it across an entire ocean. the force is enough.



Force enough for what? The force of ejecting a BD that far matches 113+ megatons of sheer physical strength (on account of Perfect Susanoo's DC)?  First off, I highly doubt this, secondly, I'd like to see the evidence that supports it so.

Wait. I'm not going to. Just as with every single outlandish claim you've made.



> the swords in the bijudamas and the bijudamas made contact with shinsuusenju and it wasnt destroyed.



That's cool. That means what, exactly?



> i dont care about OBD calcs. the crater from naruto and bees bijudama is smaller than the explosion from the PS/bijudama barrage.



Ah, yes, because scaling from experienced calcers are much less compelling an argument than your arbitrary method of comparing sizes in panels (it's basically, 'uuuh, this ones looks bigger i think'), never mind the fact that said method fails in even providing evidence to complement your premise.

Yeah, I'll take your word for it.



> i dont care about random calcs. i use on panel evidence.



Calc's do use on-panel evidence. I just trust them more because they're far more accurate and concrete than your eyes.



> on the bottom panel, you can see some bijudama and they are bigger than the mokujin.



In that case, the very most you can say is that each of those BD were 20+ Gt (the one BM Naruto launched at the combined BD, which was far bigger than any of the Bijuu, and equaled), so eleven of those would clock around 220 Gt+.

Sorry, but that's not touching Juubi's 2.61 teraton durability.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 14, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> You know this how?



because they closer to the trees in height that the mountains in the shinsuusenju panel. you are basically ignoring everything and saying that those mountains arent similar when they are clearly shown to be.


> Remember, those nearby trees were shown to be almost as big as those 'mountains', if not hills. Again, said trees would have to be *kilometres* in size to lend any sort of credence to your notion. Use scaling for the Kyuubi in this panel, otherwise your argument is of no merit.



shinsuusenjus hand alone is almost mountain sized as it was comparable to the full kyuubi in size. juubis laser is twice the height of a mountain. shinsuusenju is 10x larger. that alone in combination with its durability feats say that it withstands the juubis laser.



> I don't doubt that, but saying ShinSusenju can tank the Juubi's laser on the basis of it being bigger than said laser is one heck of a fallacious claim. That logic follows the ridiculous thinking of, again, 'size = durability'.



no, the laser wouldnt be able to take out all of shinsuusenju with one laser due to its size. that alone says that it doesnt get one-shotted even if it didnt have the durability feats necessary. with its durability feats, it straight up tanks the laser.


> Your reasoning doesn't fly, is what I'm saying.


it pretty much does.




> 'Look' smaller? Where the heck is the proof for this?
> 
> What a flimsy-ass claim, they 'look' smaller to you therefore it means they are concretely smaller. You see, these are exactly what calcs are for, to definitively prove size/destructive capacity/speed, etc., with solid evidence instead of the baseless nonsense that you're frequently churning out.


what the hell? the mountains that the juubi destroyed are smaller or equal to the one in the shinsuusenju panel because that is how it looks. theres nothing wrong with saying something based on a visaul observation. you're making mountains out of molehills with this unsupported OBD calc nonsense. 
you can obviously tell if something is bigger if you look at it just like you can tell that a planet is bigger than a fly.




> Force enough for what? The force of ejecting a BD that far matches 113+ megatons of sheer physical strength (on account of Perfect Susanoo's DC)?  First off, I highly doubt this, secondly, I'd like to see the evidence that supports it so.
> 
> Wait. I'm not going to. Just as with every single outlandish claim you've made.



where are you getting these calcs from? out your ass? anyway, visual evidence and author portrayal says that the bijudama sword has the power of a bijudama and the blades of PS.



> That's cool. That means what, exactly?


it means that shinsuusenju took out 11 mountain buster+11 mountain range cutters which do more damage per square inch than bijudama.



> Ah, yes, because scaling from experienced calcers are much less compelling an argument than your arbitrary method of comparing sizes in panels (it's basically, 'uuuh, this ones looks bigger i think'), never mind the fact that said method fails in even providing evidence to complement your premise.



you're just throwing worthless calcs in my face like thats actually evidence. if something is clearly shown to be bigger than something else then thats what it is. no ifs, and or buts.


> Yeah, I'll take your word for it.



you should.



> Calc's do use on-panel evidence. I just trust them more because they're far more accurate and concrete than your eyes.


no they're not.




> In that case, the very most you can say is that each of those BD were 20+ Gt (the one BM Naruto launched at the combined BD, which was far bigger than any of the Bijuu, and equaled), so eleven of those would clock around 220 Gt+.
> 
> Sorry, but that's not touching Juubi's 2.61 teraton durability.


you of course didnt take into account the PS blades which do more damage per square inch than bijudama.
your argument holds no water. the explosion from madara PS/bijudama combo is bigger than naruto and bees bijudama.


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## $Kakashi$ (Apr 14, 2013)

Can we wait tell he gets some feats? The flash back showed some fancy stuff, sure, but we saw none of his attacks actually destroy anything.


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashirama has superiority over the juubi in its 1st stage.
> 
> the blast of the juubis laser only reaches twice the height of a mountain.
> 
> ...



Going by this logic, a single FRS > the juubi's laserdama as the blast reaches more than twice the height of the surrounding mountains.

mountains around the juubi were larger than the ones around shinsuusenju as:
 100% Kurama standing up would easily be taller than them while the juubi standing up is not as tall as the surrounding mountains.  We even see here that the mountains in the juubi battlefield are so large that the other bijuu (2-8) don't even show up as dots compared to those mountains.

In addition to that, the height of the explosion is irrelevant if the explosion destroys a line of mountains, you have to sum total the entire damage the laser did which means all the mountains it vaporized.  

So the lower limit of the juubi's laser would be 9 mountain busters (overpowered 9 bijuudamas wtihout losing momentum) + a line of high end mountains.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the body of shinsuusenju tanked something superior to naruto and bees bijudama. it tanked 11 mountain busters combined with 11 mountain range cutters. it had not one scratch on it.


That in no way is superior to Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama, and the body of shinsuusenju in no way tanked it as its entire back was completely destroyed by the attack.

The PS sword does not add to the explosion of the bijuudama it only adds to the travelling force in order to make Hashirama incapable of grabbing it and sending it back.  The combined bijuudama tha bee and naruto used is far larger than 11 standard bijuudamas combined, even if we equated a PS sword inside the bijuudama to give the bijuudama double the power, 22 standard bijuudamas would still not even be close to the size of the combined bijuudama.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the bijudama that it tanked were bigger than the mokujin which is comparable to the body of the 100% kyuubi in size.


It in no way tanked those bijuudamas, and those bijuudamas were not bigger than mokujin as the PS sword stuck within them are the exact same length as the PS sword stuck within the first sword-dama, and thus the dama was simply closer to the frame of reference than mokujin which would make it appear larger.

If shinsuusenju tanked those bijuudamas, then mokuryu and mokujin also tanked them, yet we already know that Mokuryu and mokujin can't even survive the mere blast radius of a standard bijuudama.  So obviously the body of shinsuusenju did not get hit by a dama.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> these bijudama were infused with PS blades and shinsuusenju still wasnt scratched.


because it wasn't hit by them as the damas were used to destroy the gattling arms.

And then there's the fact that even if we granted everything you've tried to vouche for, Hashirama's shinsenjuu still gets destroyed by laserdama, it just doesn't get destroyed by ONE laser dama, while on the other hand,  you've not shown that Shinsuusenju can even harm the juubi.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashirama can also hypothetically put it to sleep and then seal it.


only possible way of doing that, however hashirama hasn't been shown the ability to seal anything, that's mito's job.


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## Bonly (Apr 14, 2013)

The Juubi's durability is likely good enough to tank most of what Hashi can deal out and seeing how much damage Kurama's roar can do, im sure the Juubi's roar can destroy any wood Hashi has come near it. Hashi is good but he's not good enough to win this match up.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 14, 2013)

Hashirama or Madara can certainly put up a fight, but they have nothing that can put the Juubi down.

They both lose eventually.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Going by this logic, a single FRS > the juubi's laserdama as the blast reaches more than twice the height of the surrounding mountains.


the FRS isnt even close to the mountains so how you're comparing them is a mystery.


> mountains around the juubi were larger than the ones around shinsuusenju as:
> 100% Kurama standing up would easily be taller than them while the juubi standing up is not as tall as the surrounding mountains.  We even see here that the mountains in the juubi battlefield are so large that the other bijuu (2-8) don't even show up as dots compared to those mountains.


-the 100% kyuubi is much larger than the other biju so the other biju not being able to be seen is irrelevant.
-a standing 100% kyuubi wouldnt be taller than the mountains in the hashirama vs madara fight.
-no biju besides 100% kyuubi is anywhere near mountain sized.
-the biju are smaller than the gedo mazo who is about 1/3rd to 1/4th the size of a mountain as demonstrated when gedo mazos confrontation with the mountain sandwich.


> In addition to that, the height of the explosion is irrelevant if the explosion destroys a line of mountains, you have to sum total the entire damage the laser did which means all the mountains it vaporized.


i know this but im not talking about the amount of mountains it destroyed.


> So the lower limit of the juubi's laser would be 9 mountain busters (overpowered 9 bijuudamas wtihout losing momentum) + a line of high end mountains.


shinsuusenjus limit is 11 mountain busters+11 mountain range levelers+a valley.



> That in no way is superior to Naruto and Bee's combined bijuudama, and the body of shinsuusenju in no way tanked it as its entire back was completely destroyed by the attack.


the main body didnt have a scratch=tanked.


> The PS sword does not add to the explosion of the bijuudama it only adds to the travelling force in order to make Hashirama incapable of grabbing it and sending it back.  The combined bijuudama tha bee and naruto used is far larger than 11 standard bijuudamas combined, even if we equated a PS sword inside the bijuudama to give the bijuudama double the power, 22 standard bijuudamas would still not even be close to the size of the combined bijuudama.


the PS swords add to the overall destructive power. they do more damage per square inch than bijudama. each bijudama was bigger than the mokujin which is comparable to the 100% kyuubi in size.
the explosion from PS/bijudama>>>>>>>>>explosion from naruto and bees bijudama.





> It in no way tanked those bijuudamas, and those bijuudamas were not bigger than mokujin as the PS sword stuck within them are the exact same length as the PS sword stuck within the first sword-dama, and thus the dama was simply closer to the frame of reference than mokujin which would make it appear larger.


unsupported.


> If shinsuusenju tanked those bijuudamas, then mokuryu and mokujin also tanked them, yet we already know that Mokuryu and mokujin can't even survive the mere blast radius of a standard bijuudama.  So obviously the body of shinsuusenju did not get hit by a dama.


obviously shinsuusenju did get hit. we see both shinsuusenju and PS get hit in the crossfire. everything was covered in the blast raduis of the bijudamas so that disproves your theory.



> because it wasn't hit by them as the damas were used to destroy the gattling arms.


they were obviously used to destroy shinsuusenju but they failed.


> And then there's the fact that even if we granted everything you've tried to vouche for, Hashirama's shinsenjuu still gets destroyed by laserdama, it just doesn't get destroyed by ONE laser dama, while on the other hand,  you've not shown that Shinsuusenju can even harm the juubi.


aim for its eye with the thousand hands which is basically what team naruto tried to do with bijudama except that hashirama succeeds due to the sheer scale and quantity of shinsuusenjus attacks.



> only possible way of doing that, however hashirama hasn't been shown the ability to seal anything, that's mito's job.


where do you think he kept the biju he captured? in cages?


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the FRS isnt even close to the mountains so how you're comparing them is a mystery.


lol really?  You don't see the mountains on the side of them or in the foreground?  Do I have to show you this scan to give you an idea of how tall the mountains are compared to the crater?  now compare the explosion to the crater vs those mountains to the crater obviously the explosion is more than 2 times taller than the surrounding mountains.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> -the 100% kyuubi is much larger than the other biju so the other biju not being able to be seen is irrelevant.


lol it no way shape or form is it irrelevant as the other bijuu might not be as large, however they are so small that they don't even appear as dots, so 100% Kurama would barely even appear as anything in that scan.  So unless you are going to argue something like 100% Kurama could fit another bijuu in its mouth, then he wouldn't be taller than those mountains if the other bijuu don't even show up as pixels in that scan.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> -a standing 100% kyuubi wouldnt be taller than the mountains in the hashirama vs madara fight.


it's more than half as tall as the mountains while its on all 4s of course it will be taller than those mountains while standing.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> -no biju besides 100% kyuubi is anywhere near mountain sized.


so what? unless you are going to argue that 100% Kurama's head is bigger than any of the other bijuus, then its' in no way shape or form irrelevant.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> -the biju are smaller than the gedo mazo who is about 1/3rd to 1/4th the size of a mountain as demonstrated when gedo mazos confrontation with the mountain sandwich.


The bijuu are just shorter than GM, and not even by much.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> i know this but im not talking about the amount of mountains it destroyed.
> 
> shinsuusenjus limit is 11 mountain busters+11 mountain range levelers+a valley.


11 mountain busters = true
a valley = potentially true
11 mountain range levelers = completely and utterly false.  A PS slash merely CUTS a mountain it does not level it, it merely removes a section from it, as after the slash teh mountains are still there, just showrter.  In order to level a mountain you would have to do so much damage to it that it would be as tall as the ground.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the main body didnt have a scratch=tanked.


Completely and utterly false as tanked only applies if the main body was actually HIT by the attack.  

by your logic, Hashirama TANKED that attack, mokuryu tanked that, and mokujin tanked it as well.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the PS swords add to the overall destructive power. they do more damage per square inch than bijudama. each bijudama was bigger than the mokujin which is comparable to the 100% kyuubi in size.*
> the explosion from PS/bijudama>>>>>>>>>explosion from naruto and bees bijudama.*


The bolded in no way shape or form is implied from the former statements.  The PS sword in no way does more damage per square inch than a bijuudama explosion as we've seen a KN4 bijuudama erases the rashoumon gates that it envelopes, and the PS sword merely cuts the gates that it touches.

Each bijuudama was in no way bigger than mokujin as the PS sword length per dama was exactly the same as the first sword dama that was fired, and we know that the entire length of the PS sword was inserted into the bijuudama.  So the dama you are using to compare is simply much closer to the frame of reference than the mokujin.





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> unsupported.


I just PROVED why my assertion is supported and true.  Thus if your only counterargument is saying "unsupported AKA you are wrong" then it's a concession on your part as an argument backed by nothing is an argument that holds no water.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> obviously shinsuusenju did get hit. we see both shinsuusenju and PS get hit in the crossfire. everything was covered in the blast raduis of the bijudamas so that disproves your theory.


That's completely and utterly false as we already know that mokuryu and mokujin can't survive the blast radius of a single bijuudama, yet by your logic they would be within it.  Thus shinsuusenju in no way was hit by any of those bijuudamas, it was simply used on the arms.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> they were obviously used to destroy shinsuusenju but they failed.


they were prioritizing the arm portion of shinsuusenju over the body as the more arms that are destroyed, the less attacks will reach susanoo and kurama.  And that's exactly what we saw in the manga scans.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> aim for its eye with the thousand hands which is basically what team naruto tried to do with bijudama except that hashirama succeeds due to the sheer scale and quantity of shinsuusenjus attacks.


Closes its eye and fires blind laserdama or makes distance and fires laserdama due to its far superior speed or beats the hell out of shinsuusenjuu with its tails while the body takes no damage.  



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> where do you think he kept the biju he captured? in cages?


umm...... how abbout bound by mokuryu?  If he keeps them captured in a person, the jinchuriki will die when he gives the bijuu to another country.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Apr 14, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> lol really?  You don't see the mountains on the side of them or in the foreground?  Do I have to show you this scan to give you an idea of how tall the mountains are compared to the crater?  now compare the explosion to the crater vs those mountains to the crater obviously the explosion is more than 2 times taller than the surrounding mountains.


again, the FRS wasnt close to the mountains so it cant be compared to it.



> lol it no way shape or form is it irrelevant as the other bijuu might not be as large, however they are so small that they don't even appear as dots, so 100% Kurama would barely even appear as anything in that scan.  So unless you are going to argue something like 100% Kurama could fit another bijuu in its mouth, then he wouldn't be taller than those mountains if the other bijuu don't even show up as pixels in that scan.


the crater that the biju are in is miles away. of course you wouldnt be able to see them.



> it's more than half as tall as the mountains while its on all 4s of course it will be taller than those mountains while standing.


no, the tails are half as tall as the mountains. the actual body isnt.



> so what? unless you are going to argue that 100% Kurama's head is bigger than any of the other bijuus, then its' in no way shape or form irrelevant.



all the scans you posted of the biju are of them being miles away which is a distance where they obviously cant be identified.


> The bijuu are just shorter than GM, and not even by much.


ok. gedo mazo isnt even remotely comparable to a mountain and the biju are smaller than it.



> 11 mountain busters = true
> a valley = potentially true
> 11 mountain range levelers = completely and utterly false.  A PS slash merely CUTS a mountain it does not level it, it merely removes a section from it, as after the slash teh mountains are still there, just showrter.  In order to level a mountain you would have to do so much damage to it that it would be as tall as the ground.


PS does more damage per square inch than bijudama. shinsuusenju tanked and trucked a force that does more damage than bijudama per square inch infused with bijudama and there were 11 of each.



> Completely and utterly false as tanked only applies if the main body was actually HIT by the attack.


which it was as shown in the manga.


> by your logic, Hashirama TANKED that attack, mokuryu tanked that, and mokujin tanked it as well.


feats dont lie. the explosion covered all of shinsuusenju and no damage was seen on hashiramas side.



> The bolded in no way shape or form is implied from the former statements.  The PS sword in no way does more damage per square inch than a bijuudama explosion as we've seen a KN4 bijuudama erases the rashoumon gates that it envelopes, and the PS sword merely cuts the gates that it touches.


hashiramas mokuton dome tanks bijudama. it was about to get destroyed by the slash of PS by author portrayal.


> Each bijuudama was in no way bigger than mokujin as the PS sword length per dama was exactly the same as the first sword dama that was fired, and we know that the entire length of the PS sword was inserted into the bijuudama.  So the dama you are using to compare is simply much closer to the frame of reference than the mokujin.


the bijudama is right next to the mokujin and its shown as bigger. there is nothing to discuss here and you're merely speculating.





> I just PROVED why my assertion is supported and true.  Thus if your only counterargument is saying "unsupported AKA you are wrong" then it's a concession on your part as an argument backed by nothing is an argument that holds no water.


you always say that everything you claim is right. it doesnt mean that its true. you didnt post any evidence so im not sure what im supposed to counter.



> That's completely and utterly false as we already know that mokuryu and mokujin can't survive the blast radius of a single bijuudama, yet by your logic they would be within it.  Thus shinsuusenju in no way was hit by any of those bijuudamas, it was simply used on the arms


.
except all of hashirama mokuton trucked bijudama in the shinsuusenju/PS clash so your "lol it wasnt supposed to be this way" argument holds no water.


> they were prioritizing the arm portion of shinsuusenju over the body as the more arms that are destroyed, the less attacks will reach susanoo and kurama.  And that's exactly what we saw in the manga scans.


we saw bijudama fired at the body of shinsuusenju and we saw it tank the bijudama/PS blades.



> Closes its eye and fires blind laserdama or makes distance and fires laserdama due to its far superior speed or beats the hell out of shinsuusenjuu with its tails while the body takes no damage.


closing your eyes wont prevent someones fist from damaging it. the juubi wont tank 1000 punches to its eye. if the juubi fires a laser, it gets tanked, shinuusenju rushes in and smashes it down then puts it to sleep.
we should see some more shinsuusenju feats in the upcoming chapter though that can maybe convince you.


> umm...... how abbout bound by mokuryu?  If he keeps them captured in a person, the jinchuriki will die when he gives the bijuu to another country.


whatever. this isnt the most important point anyway. putting the juubi to sleep alone counts as a win.


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## ueharakk (Apr 14, 2013)

EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> again, the FRS wasnt close to the mountains so it cant be compared to it.


concession accepted as i have explicitly given you a perfect frame of reference that shows the size of the FRS explosion vs the crater and the height of the mountains vs the crater.   Debate honestly child.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the crater that the biju are in is miles away. of course you wouldnt be able to see them.


irrelevant since we are shown how tall the mountains are despite them being just as far away as the crater, and the bijuus themselves at that same distance are so much shorter and smaller than the mountains that they are not even represented as a single pixel.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> no, the tails are half as tall as the mountains. the actual body isnt.


concession accepted as the scans show the body is easily at least half as tall as the mountain.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> all the scans you posted of the biju are of them being miles away which is a distance where they obviously cant be identified.


And that's completely and utterly irrelevant since them being so far away that they can't even be identified means that they are just that small compared to the mountains around it while 100% Kurama would have to be able to fit a biju in its mouth in order for it to be as big as it was compared to those mountains vs the mountains at VoTe.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> ok. gedo mazo isnt even remotely comparable to a mountain and the biju are smaller than it.


you yourself stated it is 1/3rd the height of a mountain sandwhich which is the smallest mountain we've ever seen, the bijuus are not much shorter than it, and thus unless 100% Kurama's head is bigger than a bijuu, those mountains were far smaller than the ones around the juubi



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> PS does more damage per square inch than bijudama. shinsuusenju tanked and trucked a force that does more damage than bijudama per square inch infused with bijudama and there were 11 of each.


A PS slash does not do more damage per square inch than a bijuudama as the total damage of the slash is spread out across the entire arc of its slash.  The best you could argue is that it took the equivalent of 22 normal bijuudamas to destroy all of shinsuusenjuu's arms. 

The buddah itself never got hit with any of the damas.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> which it was as shown in the manga.
> 
> feats dont lie. the explosion covered all of shinsuusenju and no damage was seen on hashiramas side.


It's true, feats don't lie and by feats, we know that a mokujin and mokuryu can't withstand the blast radius of a single bijuudama, so that explicitly proves that by feats they would not have been within the blast radius or have taken force even close to that of a normal bijudama's explosion, and thus it would also apply to shinsuusenjuu's body as well.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> hashiramas mokuton dome tanks bijudama. it was about to get destroyed by the slash of PS by author portrayal.


it tanked the explosion of the bijudama, not a direct hit, and in no way did the author portray it was about to get destroyed by the PS slash, Hashirama himself was portrayed as getting destroyed by a PS slash.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> the bijudama is right next to the mokujin and its shown as bigger. there is nothing to discuss here and you're merely speculating.


in no way shape or form am I speculating.  I have PROVEN to you that when the entire length of a PS sword is inserted into a bijuudama, it only looks like this.  From there it follows logically that the bijuudama would have to be comparable in size to that one in order for the PS sword to stick out of it just as much.  If the bijuudama was in fact as large as kurama, then not only would the PS sword not be able to penetrate the dama on one side an come out the other, but the sword's thickness would look as thick as it looked in this panel. 

So I have shown you that the bijuudama MUST be closer to the frame of reference than the mokujin, it is in no way speculation.
If you simply ignore my arguments and restate your assertion, it's a concession on your part.  





EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> you always say that everything you claim is right. it doesnt mean that its true. you didnt post any evidence so im not sure what im supposed to counter.


Um... if I make an assertion and provide evidence to back that assertion up, and your only counterargument to my argument is "you are wrong" then it means that you don't have a counterargument, which means that you tacitly concede the point.  And that's exactly what you did in this thread.




EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> except all of hashirama mokuton trucked bijudama in the shinsuusenju/PS clash so your "lol it wasnt supposed to be this way" argument holds no water.


I have shown by manga feats that your assertion cannot be true, and thus this is another concession on your part as you are simply restating your initial assertion that "shinsuusenju tanked it".  If you ignore your opponent's arguments and simply restate your initial assertion it is a concession as an ignored argument is a conceded one.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> we saw bijudama fired at the body of shinsuusenju and we saw it tank the bijudama/PS blades.


in no way shape or form is any of this true and I have shown why.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> closing your eyes wont prevent someones fist from damaging it. the juubi wont tank 1000 punches to its eye. if the juubi fires a laser, it gets tanked, shinuusenju rushes in and smashes it down then puts it to sleep.


by feats, in no way shape or form does the juubi's laser get tanked.  By feats eye opened or closed, the juubi legitimately tanked a combined bijuudama which is far more powerful and produces a far bigger explosion than the combined force of shinsuusenju gatling + rapidfire sword+damas, so no if it's eyes are closd it is not getting severely hurt by shinsuusenjuu's punches.



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> we should see some more shinsuusenju feats in the upcoming chapter though that can maybe convince you.


I would readily welcome then



EmsXSusanoXUltimateSasuke said:


> whatever. this isnt the most important point anyway. putting the juubi to sleep alone counts as a win.


if he can do it.

Debate honestly boy.  You have gotten to the point where I have debated you into a corner and now you have to ignore my arguments or actively blind yourself from manga scans like the FRS vs Mountains scan, or the bijuu size vs mountains scan or the ps blade vs bijuudama size, or how Mokujin and ryu could not have been hit with anything even close to as powerful as the blast radius of a normal bijuudama despite being well within the raw debri explosion of the damas which follows that the actual body of shinsuusenju never was hit directly by a standard.


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## Lurko (Apr 14, 2013)

I like your tierlist pretty good.


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