# Is Whitebeard's bisento a Sword or not? (aka mihawk vs shanks)



## Tornado (Jan 2, 2020)

There are atleast two references to the "12 supreme grade swords" in the manga, and it has been revealed that Whitebeards bisento "Murakumogiri" is one of these twelve.




So bisentos are swords? There are a couple of texts online to support this:
1. 
2. 

Another possibility is that the (official) translations are incorrect, and it's actually the "12 supreme grade blades". So that would mean bisentos are not swords.

What do you think? Added a poll too.

PS: @our overzealous mods: this is not a you-know-what thread in disguise. I feel it is worth discussing this question because there is some confusion here.


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## Steven (Jan 2, 2020)

In the OP Universe,yes


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## Dellinger (Jan 2, 2020)

It's a bladed weapon, not a sword.


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## Silver (Jan 2, 2020)



Reactions: Like 4


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## GeoNation (Jan 2, 2020)

Tornado said:


> There are atleast two references to the "12 supreme grade swords" in the manga, and it has been revealed that Whitebeards bisento "Murakumogiri" is one of these twelve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Official translation states them as blades not swords. Otherwise looking at the picture, you would have to call a spear a sword too right?

In one piece verse it counts as a blade not a sword

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2020)



Reactions: Like 2


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## Draffut (Jan 2, 2020)

GeoNation said:


> Official translation states them as blades not swords. Otherwise looking at the picture, you would have to call a spear a sword too right?



Nope. picture shows all the different blades, not swords.

Murakumogiri has been stated to be a supreme grade sword.  So a Naginata/Bisento is a sword.  This is actually true in the OPverse and in reality as pointed out in the first link provided by Tornado.  It's literally a sword on an extended shaft.


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## GeoNation (Jan 2, 2020)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Nope. picture shows all the different blades, not swords.
> 
> Murakumogiri has been stated to be a supreme grade sword.  So a Naginata/Bisento is a sword.  This is actually true in the OPverse and in reality as pointed out in the first link provided by Tornado.  It's literally a sword on an extended shaft.


Then you are agreeing with my statement.

Actually there's nothing in the manga stating a bisento as a sword.


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## Lawliet (Jan 2, 2020)

WB's weapon is a meito or whatever. 

So...


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## PureWIN (Jan 2, 2020)

How is this debate not settled? It's *literally in the panel* discussing the different sword grades.


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## Ruse (Jan 2, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Louis-954 (Jan 2, 2020)

A bisento is a type of sword.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 2, 2020)

Bisentos are Pole Weapons very similar to naginatas(also a poleweapon) which can also be similar to Spears. Technically you can classify it as a type of sword although I never met anyone who calls it a sword. I've only heard it referred to as a pole arm.

Oda might consider it a sword though in the context of the manga.


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## charles101 (Jan 2, 2020)

Is Usopp's slingshot a gun?

Similar function, but not really.


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## T.D.A (Jan 2, 2020)

The Viz translation:

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2020)

> The Viz translation:


> there are ppl in this thread right now who think ~a spear = a sword


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## 9TalesOfDestruction (Jan 2, 2020)

It must be "Great blades" or whitebeard would have been the world's strongest swordsman right?  (Or maybe devil fruit's negate that?)


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## Soca (Jan 2, 2020)

It's whatever you want it to be.


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## Rob (Jan 2, 2020)

By definition it can't be, since WB shits down Mihawk's neck.


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## giantbiceps (Jan 2, 2020)

You and this thread remind me of @Erkan12 



			
				Erkan12;1804481 said:
			
		

> Whitebeard is a fucking swordsman too,





			
				Great Potato;1806162 said:
			
		

>


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 2, 2020)

yes WB had a giant 'sword'

it was hidden inside his pants


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## Tornado (Jan 2, 2020)

T.D.A said:


> The Viz translation:


Thanks - just checked the official Viz translations. The page from chapter 912 has this:



It's "The 21 excellent grade *swords*" in the first panel, and "weapon" in the next panel. "Weapon" and "sword" are used interchangeably here to translate what is probably the same Japanese word. Also, the official translation of chapter 97 talks about the "12 supreme grade *swords*".



So - official translations are wrong?

@Shiba D. Inu  get out of my thread, you troll!


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 2, 2020)

Yeah it is a sword. This means that WSS>WSM.

So Mihawk is stronger than WB. Also, because Mihawk considers only Shanks his rival we can say Shanks>WB too.

It only makes sense. Roger and WB clash and some trees blow away. Shanks and Mihawk clash and the whole Grandline shakes.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Brian (Jan 3, 2020)

Mihawk being the one who scarred Whitebeard might be true


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## Kishido (Jan 3, 2020)

No


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 3, 2020)

Brian said:


> Mihawk being the one who scarred Whitebeard might be true




Goda


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## hehey (Jan 3, 2020)

Brian said:


> Mihawk being the one who scarred Whitebeard might be true





Seraphoenix said:


> Goda


From Mihawks comments in the marineford war its clear they never fought before

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kamina. (Jan 3, 2020)

Here comes 10 pages of motherfuckers crying about the word kenshi and swordsman  instead of just using common sense when dealing with characters.

Reactions: Like 1


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## rext1 (Jan 3, 2020)

Roger was a swordsman. WB was a swordsman. Rocks was a swordsman.

EOS Zoro will be the Greatest Ever - so he'll surely eclipse them all for sure. 

EOS Zoro will be able to turn any sword black at a single touch.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Freechoice (Jan 3, 2020)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Tornado (Jan 3, 2020)

Kamina. said:


> Here comes 10 pages of motherfuckers crying about the word kenshi and swordsman  instead of just using common sense when dealing with characters.


What's your common sense answer? Bisentos are swords or not?

Don't care about "swordsmen" for now

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Someone still in denial about swordsman Roger maybe


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## T.D.A (Jan 3, 2020)

Tornado said:


> Thanks - just checked the official Viz translations. The page from chapter 912 has this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's not a mistake. There's some nuance with the Japanese words that are used. It's not as simple as 'oh the word for sword was used, so sPeAr = sWoRd'. I might make a thread about it later if I'm not too lazy

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tornado (Jan 3, 2020)

T.D.A said:


> It's not a mistake. There's some nuance with the Japanese words that are used. It's not as simple as 'oh the word for sword was used, so sPeAr = sWoRd'. I might make a thread about it later if I'm not too lazy


Cool, just explain why the same Japanese phrase was translated as "excellent grade swords" in one panel, and "excellent grade weapons" in the next. All swords are weapons so it's possible for both translations to be correct. Remember that there is at least one other panel in this manga (Tashigi's monologue in chapter 97) mentioning "excellent grade swords", and I can probably find more.

This is what I'm (currently) taking away from it:
"""of all the blades/swords/spears/knives out there, these 12 supreme grade *swords *are the best""".

If you think I'm wrong, you should probably just make a post / thread explaining that "nuance with the Japanese words", or I'm betting this won't be the last you hear of "Swordsman Whitebeard"


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## Tornado (Jan 3, 2020)

.......... yeah WB isn't a swordsman.

@T.D.A  better make that tl;dr post about nuance so I won't be tempted to use this argument in the future. Also there's 7 people on the poll who think bisentos are swords.

The official translation seems wrong tbh. It should never have mentioned swords. Fucking swords, man. Would've been a lot simpler if it was just the "12 supreme grade blades" all along


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 3, 2020)

Next poll or thread should be about whether the blades on Kaido's weapon are mini swords. 

We've already established Mihawk>WB ITT. Now it's WSC's turn

Reactions: Like 1


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## Richard Lionheart (Jan 3, 2020)

Arguing that WB's bisento is a sword is not that farfetched. That blade is easily as big as the blade of a normal sword. You could just remove the stick and attach a short handle to it. The real difference here is only the stick that is attached to the great blade.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

To be fair it makes more logical sense for oda to say Great Blades. As there are many types of weapons in the world doesnt make much sense just to have swords be made with skill. Why wouldent some black Smith's make high quality spears, axes, glaives ect. 

Oda could make a separate category of the world's best naginatas or bisentos but how many are we actually gonna see in the series just makes more sense to put them all in one category.


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## Kamina. (Jan 3, 2020)

Tornado said:


> What's your common sense answer? Bisentos are swords or not?
> 
> Don't care about "swordsmen" for now



Lol bro don't worry I wasn't talking about you its just the usual around here for people to argue in circles for pages upon pages. 

Common sense answer is no.


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## Fel1x (Jan 3, 2020)

T.D.A said:


> The Viz translation:


this
GG, WP, Mihawk fans. another L to your wannabe WSS


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 3, 2020)

It's not, but at this point, I sure do hope so.


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## Gledania (Jan 3, 2020)

doubt it


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> It's not, but at this point, I sure do hope so.


Nice try, buy WB will still be a Guraman, not a bladesman 

WSS remains impeccable


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## Draffut (Jan 3, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> > there are ppl in this thread right now who think ~a spear = a sword



You mean the historians in referenced in the original post?  A Japanese spear is a Yari.  Noone here is saying a Yari is a sword.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shrike (Jan 3, 2020)

*Naginata* is a Japanese bladed weapon with a long shaft (wooden handle). The weapon looks like a pole and is often mistaken with one. The word "*naginata*" means "mowing down sword" or "reaping sword".

So yes, it's a sword, even though it's dumb as shit to call it a sword.

Anyway...
...who really gives a shit about this? Because Mihawk's title right?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Shrike said:


> Because Mihawk's title right


rent free


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## Ashi (Jan 3, 2020)

Nah its pretty clearly a spear


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## Shrike (Jan 3, 2020)

Why don't you people just use Google and do simple fucking research and you'll find your answers...


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## Venom (Jan 3, 2020)

No it's Patrick


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## Gledania (Jan 3, 2020)

Nah. Oda gave the WSS title to Mihawk , and everybody and their mom viewed WB as the strongest man.

Would Mihawk title ever get any credibility among the people there if the WSM had a sword he's been using for long ? See Zeff when he introduced Mihawk as the greatest swordman in East blue ? You think he was putting him above WB ?

It's a bladed weapon for sure , and not only the bisento , Spears and Axes too. It probably can be turned to a black weapon , can be used to make air slashes and the same shit ... But it's not a freaking sword. You don't wield it or use it the same way you do wield/use a sword.


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## Tornado (Jan 3, 2020)

Shrike said:


> Why don't you people just use Google and do simple fucking research and you'll find your answers...


Yeah, my fault. I missed the "Naginata" bit.



			
				SBS 93 said:
			
		

> O: Whitebeard's *Naginata* is called " (Cloud Cutter)", it's a .


Oda called it a naginata, and naginatas are swords so that settles it. Finally. My OP was focusing on the wrong thing, and tbh was a bit dumb..... 

Anyway - re: the title, WB has the quake fruit.


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## Draffut (Jan 3, 2020)

Gledania said:


> Would Mihawk title ever get any credibility among the people there if the WSM had a sword he's been using for long ? See Zeff when he introduced Mihawk as the greatest swordman in East blue ? You think he was putting him above WB?



The question becomes, what makes someone the WSS in the OPverse?  Do you have to defeat the previous WSS?  Does Morgans just have to publish it in the newspaper?  Did Mihawk just make up the title for himself and literally no one but Zoro gives a shit?

I think he's been hiding in Grand Line, protected by the Marines, fighting pirates like Don Kreig because he knows going to the New World would end him and his title once any real pirate crew found him.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> The question becomes, what makes someone the WSS in the OPverse?  Do you have to defeat the previous WSS?  Does Morgans just have to publish it in the newspaper?  Did Mihawk just make up the title for himself and literally no one but Zoro gives a shit?
> 
> I think he's been hiding in Grand Line, protected by the Marines, fighting pirates like Don Kreig because he knows going to the New World would end him and his title once any real pirate crew found him.



*Spoiler*: __ 



rent free

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gledania (Jan 3, 2020)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Did Mihawk just make up the title for himself and literally no one but Zoro gives a shit?
> 
> .



He defeated the previous WSS A.K.A Gol D Roger.


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## Moldrew (Jan 3, 2020)

Whitebeard wields a Meitou 24/7 and Kizaru occasionally generates a light saber.

Are either of them a “swordsman”?


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## Quipchaque (Jan 3, 2020)

Yes according to shrike's Info and the Interview with Oda it is a sword and no Whitebeard is not a kenshi.


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## Mercurial (Jan 3, 2020)

Whitebeard's weapon is a blade.  

All swords are blades. Not all blades are swords. Simple as that, really.


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## TheOmega (Jan 3, 2020)

I love this lol.

People's brains are imploding over the simple fact that Mihawk's title refers specifically to SWORDSMANSHIP and not just people who incorporate swords into their fighting.

Either WB is not a swordsman or Mihawk is not a man...but WB uses a SWORD soo that means that merely having a sword does not qualify you as a swordsman.

Meaning Roger/Rayleigh/Shanks can still be above Mihawk without contradicting his title...

 Good Game Ya'll It's Over, We Won


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 3, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Nice try, buy WB will still be a Guraman, not a bladesman
> 
> WSS remains impeccable



Not when sword-wielding heaven splitters exist


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

TheOmega said:


> I love this lol.
> 
> People's brains are imploding over the simple fact that Mihawk's title refers specifically to SWORDSMANSHIP and not just people who incorporate swords into their fighting.
> 
> ...



If they have devil fruits sure


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

TheOmega said:


> Mihawk's title refers specifically to SWORDSMANSHIP







TheOmega said:


> people who incorporate swords into their fighting





TheOmega said:


> incorporate swords into their fighting.





TheOmega said:


> incorporate





TheOmega said:


> Roger/Rayleigh/Shanks


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

Seems i need to post this again. 

Copy pasta time this in regards to Mihawks title being associated with fighters who have other powerful skills. 

Those people are silly and should be ignored. It is theoretically possible for oda to go down that route if he wanted to, but that should by no stretch of the imagination be the default stance.

Until Oda says otherwise the default position is the one that you know actually makes sense. Hybrid fighters like Law, Big Mom, Kizaru, ect do not fall under Mihawks title as they have powerful skills completely unrelated to swordsmanship. Thinking otherwise would be like saying Brock Lesnar is a better Boxer then Mike Tyson because he beat him in a UFC match.(That is a example for those lacking reading comprehension Mike tyson never fought Brock lesnar XD)

No ones going to give WB the WSS title if he gained it via the Gura Gura, the reasons for that should be painfully clear. Just like no one would call Brock Lesnar the strongest boxer alive cause he beat Mike Tyson in the octagon.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Seems i need to post this again.
> 
> Copy pasta time this in regards to Mihawks title being associated with fighters who have other powerful skills.
> 
> ...


I think Oda has referred to Law as a swordsman.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> I think Oda has referred to Law as a swordsman.



Never said Law wasn't a swordsmen.

I said he doesn't fall under Mihawks title.

The requirements to be a swordsmen isn't high you just need to be skilled with a blade. Beating Mihawk with the Ope Ope no mi does not make you a stronger swordsmen then Mihawk. Anymore then Brock Lesnar beating Mike Tyson with jujitsu makes him a stronger boxer.

Let me put it into numbers to make this simple. 

Mihawk
Swordsmanship 60 points
Haki 40 points

Law 
Swordsmanship 10 points
Devil fruit 80 points
haki 40 points. 

Law wins the fight due to having 80 points in Devil fruit. Does that make him a stronger swordsmen then Mihawk not in my book. Makes him a stronger fighter sure.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Never said Law wasn't a swordsmen.
> 
> I said he doesn't fall under Mihawks title.
> 
> ...


what about invisible Shiryuu ?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> what about invisible Shiryuu ?



A true swordsmen doesn't need to see his opponent.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Never said Law wasn't a swordsmen.
> 
> I said he doesn't fall under Mihawks title.
> 
> ...




Shanks is a swordsman but doesn’t fall under Mihawk’s title. Ty DD


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Shanks is a swordsman but doesn’t fall under Mihawk’s title. Ty DD



Its possible. 

Currently have no reason to believe Shanks has a DF though. At least not from the manga that i have read


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 3, 2020)

Shanks ate the zoan fruit: model Swordsman Swordsman


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## T.D.A (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Its possible.
> 
> Currently have no reason to believe Shanks has a DF though. At least not from the manga that i have read



Shanks having a DF would ruin his character tbh.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

T.D.A said:


> Shanks having a DF would ruin his character tbh.



meh i couldn't care less tbh just needs to be cool obviously


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## T.D.A (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> meh i couldn't care less tbh just needs to be cool obviously



If he had a DF, we'd have seen it by now. No reason for Oda not to show or imply it.


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## TheOmega (Jan 3, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Never said Law wasn't a swordsmen.
> 
> I said he doesn't fall under Mihawks title.
> 
> ...




We're saying the say shit with different approaches.

People like me are saying Shanks/Rayleigh don't fall under Mihawk's title because they're haki spamming mixed fighters.

Mihawk's title means he has the best SWORDSMANSHIP. Meaning in a battle of ONLY SWORDSMANSHIP, Mihawk will come out superior.

To use your analogy. Connor McGregor got washed by Mayweather in a PURE Boxing Match. Mayweather = World's Best Boxer for all intents and purposes. BUT Most people will agree that McGregor would CRUSH Mayweather in a MMA format match.

Same thing with Shanks & em vs Mihawk.

Mihawk could probably beat these guys until they start doing their Haki magic and doing whatever else they choose to do. But if they were restricted from doing so, Mihawk would probably win.

The difference is in the perspective. Some people claim that anyone who incorporates a sword into their repertoire is a swordsman. That's not necessarily incorrect but it also isn't fully accurate. Some people claim that you're not considered a swordsman until you dedicate yourself to swordsmanship. BOTH views have merit.

Only time will tell which view ODA holds, which is what truly matters in the end since it's HIS work and ideas that are being portrayed.

Once people see more of Haki being developed and how it can be looked at as it's own discipline THEN people will start to see what people like me have been saying for years about it being it's own shit and not just "supplementary" as the naysayers would have people believe

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 3, 2020)

TheOmega said:


> We're saying the say shit with different approaches.
> 
> People like me are saying Shanks/Rayleigh don't fall under Mihawk's title because they're haki spamming mixed fighters.



Thats all well and good but Shanks nor Rayleigh have shown to be any less of a swordsmen then Mihawk has. Them being possibly more skilled then Mihawk in CoA or CoO is not evidence of them being mixed fighters outside the range of mihawks title, as Mihawk himself states training in haki is vital for a swordsmen. 

It is possible though that they are yes. 



> Mihawk's title means he has the best SWORDSMANSHIP. Meaning in a battle of ONLY SWORDSMANSHIP, Mihawk will come out superior.



I agree. Which is why Devil fruits don't count unless it is something super minor like some shitty zoan that shouldn't really matter as its just a increase in base stats. 



> To use your analogy. Connor McGregor got washed by Mayweather in a PURE Boxing Match. Mayweather = World's Best Boxer for all intents and purposes. BUT Most people will agree that McGregor would CRUSH Mayweather in a MMA format match.
> 
> Same thing with Shanks & em vs Mihawk.
> 
> Mihawk could probably beat these guys until they start doing their Haki magic and doing whatever else they choose to do. But if they were restricted from doing so, Mihawk would probably win.



I agree with the analogy but as i stated earlier Haki isn't a factor that changes it. 



> The difference is in the perspective. Some people claim that anyone who incorporates a sword into their repertoire is a swordsman. That's not necessarily incorrect but it also isn't fully accurate. Some people claim that you're not considered a swordsman until you dedicate yourself to swordsmanship. BOTH views have merit.



I agree 



> Only time will tell which view ODA holds, which is what truly matters in the end since it's HIS work and ideas that are being portrayed.



True. 



> Once people see more of Haki being developed and how it can be looked at as it's own discipline THEN people will start to see what people like me have been saying for years about it being it's own shit and not just "supplementary" as the naysayers would have people believe



Possible but i personally doubt it. As you already said though thats up for oda to make clear not me or you

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Tornado said:


> There are atleast two references to the "12 supreme grade swords" in the manga, and it has been revealed that Whitebeards bisento "Murakumogiri" is one of these twelve.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh boy been there done that!

I should be a sword but ...


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Bisentos are Pole Weapons very similar to naginatas(also a poleweapon) which can also be similar to Spears. Technically you can classify it as a type of sword although I never met anyone who calls it a sword. I've only heard it referred to as a pole arm.


It is a sword a long sword that can act as a pole arm.

Also, it is rich that swordsman can use DF and be called swordsman not DF users with blades but Bisento's are blades!


Shrike said:


> *Naginata* is a Japanese bladed weapon with a long shaft (wooden handle). The weapon looks like a pole and is often mistaken with one. The word "*naginata*" means "mowing down sword" or "reaping sword".
> 
> So yes, it's a sword, even though it's dumb as shit to call it a sword.
> 
> ...


Bingo!

Because of literal definitions and literal interpretations!

Reactions: Like 1


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## FrozenFeathers (Jan 4, 2020)

Forget what it is.
Why havent the weapon hunter nutters stormed WB's homeland and ravaged it yet?
Whitebeard's epic weapon has to be something extremely valuable.


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## Tornado (Jan 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Also, it is rich that swordsman can use DF and be called swordsman not DF users with blades but Bisento's are blades!


Turns out it's a naginata, not a bisento. That's what Oda said in the SBS. Bisentos are pole-arms but naginatas are a type of sword; though they both look similar.... cheers to definitions.

This thread is useful for shutting down the trolls who say that anyone who uses a sword < Mihawk.

Unlike people like @Donquixote Doflamingo (who is probably the most reasonable guy on the other side of this debate) and I agree with what he says here:



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Seems i need to post this again.
> 
> Copy pasta time this in regards to Mihawks title being associated with fighters who have other powerful skills.
> 
> ...


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Tornado said:


> Turns out it's a naginata, not a bisento. That's what Oda said in the SBS. Bisentos are pole-arms but naginatas are swords....
> 
> This thread is useful for shutting down the trolls who say that anyone who uses a sword < Mihawk.
> 
> Unlike people like @Donquixote Doflamingo (who is probably the most reasonable guy on the other side of this debate) and I agree with what he says here:


I already had this conversation with half of the Z boys, ask @Light D Lamperouge.

The excuses are that not all blades are swords but for reasons, all Sword users are swordmen and < WSS so you see they use a flawed logic.

Whoever Oda wants to include into WSS are those that are below WSS if Oda wants Roger to not be a swordsman, he will do so.

My problem is with this no limit fallacy :



This is in fact the motif of all of this.



Tornado said:


> Unlike people like @Donquixote Doflamingo (who is probably the most reasonable guy on the other side of this debate) and I agree with what he says here:


I agree with this, He is one of my favorite debaters regarding that subject!



Tornado said:


> Turns out it's a naginata, not a bisento.


What you did was a summary of my threads on different forums that spanned 50 pages.


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## Tornado (Jan 4, 2020)

FrozenFeathers said:


> Forget what it is.
> Why havent the weapon hunter nutters stormed WB's homeland and ravaged it yet?
> Whitebeard's epic weapon has to be something extremely valuable.


Maybe WB and Ace are buried in WB's old village behind that waterfall. Or in one of Shank's territories.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> I already had this conversation with half of the Z boys, ask @Light D Lamperouge.
> 
> The excuses are that not all blades are sword but for reasons, all Sword users are swordmen and < WSS so you see they use a flawed logic.
> 
> ...



I wouldn't take Zoros words that seriously. 

Hes a kid. Just like a kid might say I want to be the best basketball player ever when I grow up, but there is really no actual way to prove that he is.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Never said Law wasn't a swordsmen.
> 
> I said he doesn't fall under Mihawks title.
> 
> ...



I get your point, whether I agree with it or not. But why is haki points part of the equation? For example what if Shanks has 80 haki points to Mihawk's 40? Is Shanks not under the WSS title due to having monstrous Haki? Which I am certain he totally has, if he ends up DFless. Also, this whole argument will be redundant if it turned out Mihawk has a DF.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mihawk made a black blade and taught Zoro CoA

Do not doubt his haki


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## TheOmega (Jan 4, 2020)

Notice how you highlight CoA and CoO...conveniently leaving out CoC which we have seen BOTH Shanks AND Rayleigh be skilled in.

Shanks/Rayleigh/Roger seem to use the same swords and most likely share the same fighting style.

All 3 have CoC

All 3 have their own hype separate from Mihawk;

Roger is PK, Rayleigh is PKs Right Hand, Shanks is PK's Successor/Yonko

We saw Roger and WB's legendary clash.

We saw Shank and WB's legendary clash.

We saw Mihawk FAIL to REACH WB.

Just like we saw Mihawk FAIL to reach Luffy.

Why did he fail? Because their ALLIES intercepted his attacks.

"Charisma" is declared by Mihawk as the MOST POWERFUL Ability In The Seas...

What is Charisma directly related to? CoC

Who did the WG say was Charismatic and recruited a bunch of powerful goons? Shanks

Who's one of the top 4 pirates in the new world? Shanks

Shanks lost an arm but "didn't lose power" and WB said he's still got that "strong spirit"....this seems to imply that his power is more influenced by his Haki than his swordplay.

I personally always took that statement Mihawk made about testing the distance between him and that man to be in reference to Shanks, because that was his former rival and we actually got to see that Shanks and WB were able to clash face to face as equals

But yea Shanks & em true status is gonna end up being determined depending on Dat Top Tier Haki. Personally I'm pretty confident that it'll be enough to prove the views of Team Shanks-Is-World's-Strongest-Haki

Either way I look forward to seeing both Mihawk and Shanks in action and would LOVE to see a flashback of them dueling



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Thats all well and good but Shanks nor Rayleigh have shown to be any less of a swordsmen then Mihawk has. Them being possibly more skilled then Mihawk in CoA or CoO is not evidence of them being mixed fighters outside the range of mihawks title, as Mihawk himself states training in haki is vital for a swordsmen.
> 
> It is possible though that they are yes.
> 
> ...


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> it turned out Mihawk has a DF.


But that would just mean he is even stronger than DF swordsmen too


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## TheOmega (Jan 4, 2020)

Treating Haki Hax like common Haki is the same as comparing every justu that uses chakra to a Bijuudama.

Certain things have a certain potency that once you reach it, it changes the dynamic/nature of how it can be used.

People thought Sage Modes were all equal til we saw Six Paths Sage Mode, etc.

Shonen always does this type of shit.

Haki is the "spirit/heart/soul/willpower" power in a shonen. Best believe that it's gonna turn out to be the top tier tool when you have a top tier good guy who has no other powers in a world of magic users



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I get your point, whether I agree with it or not. But why is haki points part of the equation? For example what if Shanks has 80 haki points to Mihawk's 40? Is Shanks not under the WSS title due to having monstrous Haki? Which I am certain he totally has, if he ends up DFless. Also, this whole argument will be redundant if it turned out Mihawk has a DF.





Shiba D. Inu said:


> Mihawk made a black blade and taught Zoro CoA
> 
> Do not doubt his haki

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I wouldn't take Zoros words that seriously.
> 
> Hes a kid. Just like a kid might say I want to be the best basketball player ever when I grow up, but there is really no actual way to prove that he is.


That is my point but the Z boys will say: 

Also, that is a no-limit fallacy, until she shows feat to be put at PK+, he will ever be weaker then Roger.

The author's words and the character's words are not facts!



Shiba D. Inu said:


> Mihawk made a black blade and taught Zoro CoA
> 
> Do not doubt his haki


And that is important because?

Roger does not have his blade black and he has stronger COA vs Mihwak!

Also, a black Shusui is inferior to 12 blades including WB's bisento who also does not have a black one but is stronger.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> But that would just mean he is even stronger than DF swordsmen too



For me personally, WSS is an in-verse title won/lost by direct battles. If Mihawk simply never fought guys like Yonkou-level Shanks and Big Mom, then he never lost to them either and so his title is intact. It is completely possible in terms of plot that Mihawk has gotten complacent and stopped looking for opponents given the fact that he's basically chilling in his island or one-shots fodder most of the time, and isn't actually active in the New World like the Yonkou and Admirals are. If retaining his title meant so much for him, then he would never have missed the opportunity to fight Whitebeard (assuming he's a Swordsman) or Shanks head-on in Marineford. Unless you really mean to tell me Vista *ACTUALLY STALEMATED *him. It's well within Mihawk's character that he ended up not caring as much to the point where he accepted the Shichibukai role, and that only Zoro reignited his interest. That's my honest take.

@TheOmega Haki isn't just CoA tho. Luffy and Katakuri are prime examples. For example as of now, Zoro just has no way to strike Luffy due to precog.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> I get your point, whether I agree with it or not. But why is haki points part of the equation? For example what if Shanks has 80 haki points to Mihawk's 40? Is Shanks not under the WSS title due to having monstrous Haki? Which I am certain he totally has, if he ends up DFless. Also, this whole argument will be redundant if it turned out Mihawk has a DF.



I put haki there because mihawks strength comes from more then just swordsmanship, i left out base stats cause well that goes without saying hopefully XD.

Mihawk trained Zoro in haki so i doubt haki levels matter in that equation. Its not like Zoro and Mihawk are going to have exactly equal haki stats. Mihawks not gonna go good job in beating me zoro but you only won cause your COA haki is stronger then mine so i keep the title, that would be 

If Mihawk has a DF that will be great just to see shanks fanboys tears. I doubt it though. You are correct though if Mihawk has a DF then all bets are off everyone falls under Mihawks title. So Mihawk>Roger as already expected.




TheOmega said:


> Notice how you highlight CoA and CoO...conveniently leaving out CoC which we have seen BOTH Shanks AND Rayleigh be skilled in.
> 
> Shanks/Rayleigh/Roger seem to use the same swords and most likely share the same fighting style.
> 
> ...


COTC is fodder control so irrelevant vs Mihawk.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Something to add: Shanks, Big Mom, Fujitora, and Rayliegh probably don't give a shit about the WSS title. I know for sure Big Mom doesn't. So they'd never reach out to fight Mihawk to attain the WSS title (Shanks' challenge was playful). If Mihawk actually cared, he'd pursue them to retain his title. But alas, as of now, he never did.

I feel like, since the plot point has been introduced so early, Oda is going to overlook/ignore many things to save face for one of the major protagonists in the manga, which is Zoro. For example, why doesn't Zoro pursue Big Mom and Shanks for direct one on one fights if they're considered Swordsmen. They're Kaido level, which should logically put them at the top, and that's what he's aiming for. But he's going to conveniently ignore them and focus on more whoever ends up being his own personal FV, which honestly speaking may or may not be Yonkou level. I am personally thinking it's going to be the latter. I totally see Oda reserve the WSS to purely DFless Swordsmen just to give Zoro a copout and not have him equal or exceed Luffy's level. 

Because let's be honest, not even Roger casually mid-diffed Yonkou-leveled opponents. So I doubt that EoS Luffy will be able to as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> For me personally, WSS is an in-verse title won/lost by direct battles.


headcanon, but ok 

we'll see Mihawks power before the manga is over (maybe)



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> If retaining his title meant so much for him


but it doesnt

Zoro is the one obsessed with it due to Kuina trauma
Mihawk himself doesnt give it a shit aas far as i recall

it just so happens that as per Oda - he *is *the WSS


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> headcanon, but ok
> 
> we'll see Mihawks power before the manga is over (maybe)



Ironically while losing to a Yonkou Commander


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Ironically while losing to a Yonkou Commander


shiryuu sealed his own fate the moment he ate a shitty fruit thats just CoO training for zolo


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## Kami no Tenteki (Jan 4, 2020)

Tbh I'm no weapon expert. But no, it doesn't look like a sword so it's not a sword.
But if it is, I demand Oda to give a scientifically phrased definition of what a sword is at some point.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> but it doesnt
> 
> Zoro is the one obsessed with it due to Kuina trauma
> Mihawk himself doesnt give it a shit aas far as i recall
> ...



So Mihawk, Fujitora, Big Mom, Shanks, and Rayleigh don't give a shit. So why should we? 

If the characters themselves do not care about the plotpoint, why should the readers give it any importance to the story. If it's basically irrelevant, then we should treat it as such.



Shiba D. Inu said:


> shiryuu sealed his own fate the moment he ate a shitty fruit thats just CoO training for zolo



I don't even know what you're arguing anymore


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> So Mihawk, Fujitora, Big Mom, Shanks, and Rayleigh don't give a shit. So why should we?
> 
> If the characters themselves do not care about the plotpoint, why should the readers give it any importance to the story. If it's basically irrelevant, they we should treat it as such.


feel free to and good luck getting OL to stop obesessing over it 


but none of it will stop Mihawk from still being WSS (strongest, not "most skilled") until EoS Zoro 
because GODA declared it so


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Something to add: Shanks, Big Mom, Fujitora, and Rayliegh probably don't give a shit about the WSS title. I know for sure Big Mom doesn't. So they'd never reach out to fight Mihawk to attain the WSS title (Shanks' challenge was playful). If Mihawk actually cared, he'd pursue them to retain his title. But alas, as of now, he never did.
> 
> I feel like, since the plot point has been introduced so early, Oda is going to overlook/ignore many things to save face for one of the major protagonists in the manga, which is Zoro. For example, why doesn't Zoro pursue Big Mom and Shanks for direct one on one fights if they're considered Swordsmen. They're Kaido level, which should logically put them at the top, and that's what he's aiming for. But he's going to conveniently ignore them and focus on more whoever ends up being his own personal FV, which honestly speaking may or may not be Yonkou level. I am personally thinking it's going to be the latter. I totally see Oda reserve the WSS to purely DFless Swordsmen just to give Zoro a copout and not have him equal or exceed Luffy's level.
> 
> Because let's be honest, not even Roger casually mid-diffed Yonkou-leveled opponents. So I doubt that EoS Luffy will be able to as well.




*Spoiler*: __ 




] 




Databook says Mihawk has already fought everyone he needs to. So either big mom aint a swordsmen by his standards or he doesnt think she is worth his time.



Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> So Mihawk, Fujitora, Big Mom, Shanks, and Rayleigh don't give a shit. So why should we?
> 
> If the characters themselves do not care about the plotpoint, why should the readers give it any importance to the story. If it's basically irrelevant, then we should treat it as such.



Who says anyone needs to care?

No one in the story said they were aiming to be WSM or WSC as far as i know. Doesn't make those titles less significant because Fuji doesnt go man i want to be the WSM  Only dude who wants to be Admiral that we know of is Coby and who gives a fuck about Coby.

WSS title isnt important in-verse its just a title of strength which is only relevant for those who strive to be the strongest which very few charcters in one piece care about. The fanbase just likes to debate power levels it is what it is XD


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> but none of it will stop Mihawk from still being WSS (strongest, not "most skilled") until EoS Zoro



Should always add an asterisk to WSS citing the conditions just to be safe.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


databook are non-canon trash tho


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> So either big mom aint a swordsmen by his standards or *he doesnt think she is worth his time.*



And we both know the bolded can't be true, no matter how much anyone wants to joke about it.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mihawk doesnt want to be father to a new batch of sweet commanders


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## Moldrew (Jan 4, 2020)

Whitebeard was stronger than Mihawk up until he died. WSM > WSS. If Roger was stronger or equal to Whitebeard, he was > Mihawk too.
Kaido over Mihawk as well because WSC > WSS.

WSS is a joke title.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> WSS is a joke title.


.. is what Shanks boys tell themselves every night 



imagine if Shanks was the WSS
how different would the tune be


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## Moldrew (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> .. is what Shanks fans tell themselves every night


Not a Shanks fan


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> And we both know the bolded can't be true, no matter how much anyone wants to joke about it.



We might think so doesn't mean Mihawk does. Shanks is clearly not a bitch but Mihawk has shown no desire to fight him any longer the reasons for that are unknown(my guess is because he is a cripple) but if Mihawk can ignore shanks why cant he ignore big mom?

Kizaru volunteered to go to Wano and he didn't say he wanted to take Fuji or Green Bull with him. Should i take it to mean Kizaru is a cocky fuck and believes he can kick Big Mom and Kaidous ass? Probably not but he is clearly confident in his strength. Despite us as the readers thinking, man kizaru is out of his mind.


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## Moldrew (Jan 4, 2020)

Mihawk is only ever eager to fight scrubs in East Blue.
Facts or no?


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> .. is what Shanks boys tell themselves every night
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If Shanks was WSS the the title would be respected and not viewed as a Vista-tier title.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> If Shanks was WSS the the title would be respected and not viewed as a Vista-tier title.



Zoro beating up a cripple doesn't sound very manly though

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Kizaru volunteered to go to Wano and he didn't say he wanted to take Fuji or Green Bull with him.


And BMP were cocky enough to say some mid-tiers can do shit to stop Roger!

Katakuri was said to be undefeated, Luffy is a Goko, the same Kizaru could do shit to pass Ray that was old so him doing something to BM and Kaido + Sweet commander and calamities without another top tier and even with only one can do jack shit!

Some people believe that Luffy is an 8M Giant.

DD believes he and his men can kill Fuji.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Mihawk can ignore shanks why cant he ignore big mom?


So he ignores every top swordsman and yet he fought anyone and no one can challenge him!
And btw he never defeated his rival Shanks that would have been news and in the lore.

Let's see Kaido has literally challenged anyone and killed Oden from what we can see is a top tier in Prime also fought Roger, Garp, and WB;

WB has fought Roger and Garp;
Garp has fought Roger and WB;
BM has fought WB, Garp, Roger, and Kaido;

Kizaru has fought WB and Ray;
Akainu has fought Aokiji and WB;
Aokiji has fought Akainu and WB;

Note I believe that he is a top tier and can be above some but he gets too much of a pass and he might even not be Zoro's opponent!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And BMP were cocky enough to say some mid-tiers can do shit to stop Roger!
> 
> Katakuri was said to be undefeated, Luffy is a Goko, the same Kizaru could do shit to pass Ray that was old so him doing something to BM and Kaido + Sweet commander and calamities without another top tier and even with only one can do jack shit!
> 
> ...



Yes i agree characters say crazy things.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Zoro beating up a cripple doesn't sound very manly though


Don’t think he can stand the embarrassment and humiliation of losing to a cripple


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> Don’t think he can stand the embarrassment and humiliation of losing to a cripple



Oda have Zoro lose?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)




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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

"Is WB´s bisento a sword or not"

Oh wonder,it turns into a Mihawk vs Shanks Thread


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Acno said:


> "Is WB´s bisento a sword or not"
> 
> Oh wonder,it turns into a Mihawk vs Shanks Thread


This is the way (of OL)


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> We might think so doesn't mean Mihawk does. Shanks is clearly not a bitch but Mihawk has shown no desire to fight him any longer the reasons for that are unknown(my guess is because he is a cripple) but if Mihawk can ignore shanks why cant he ignore big mom?



Just like @Ren. said, this is a major copout. He's the WSS but he's conveniently ignoring top tier swordsmen due to, reasons? One-handed Shanks is a Yonkou that clashed with Roger's rival and Big Mom is both a Yonkou and a Rocks crew Legend that clashed with Kaido and was already a big player during Roger's time. Fujitora is an Admiral. Rayligh is/was the Pirate King's First Mate. 

Slice it however you want, but Mihawk shouldn't be ignoring these players if he's interested in retaining the WSS. Which I suppose he isn't, which is why I am saying he's gotten complacent and that affected his strength. 

The same exact thing happened with Whitebeard FFS. 




Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Kizaru volunteered to go to Wano and he didn't say he wanted to take Fuji or Green Bull with him. Should i take it to mean Kizaru is a cocky fuck and believes he can kick Big Mom and Kaidous ass? Probably not but he is clearly confident in his strength. Despite us as the readers thinking, man kizaru is out of his mind.



Akainu (the superior) directly contradicted Kizaru tho. Akainu said they don't have the forces to deal with a Big Mom and Kaido alliance, so I am just gonna chalk that up to Kizaru being high/talking shit.


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> This is the way (of OL)


Shanks titel is a joke tbh.

Wait...he dont have a titel


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And BMP were cocky enough to say some mid-tiers can do shit to stop Roger!
> 
> Katakuri was said to be undefeated, Luffy is a Goko, the same Kizaru could do shit to pass Ray that was old so him doing something to BM and Kaido + Sweet commander and calamities without another top tier and even with only one can do jack shit!
> 
> ...



Yes as far as we know Mihawk has not fought any top tiers since shanks. 

People seem to have a hard on for Mihawk having feats though, he will get feats when oda decides to focus on his story. We didn't know shit about Big Mom or Kaidous past until....Oda brought them into the story. 

Now if Zoro defeats Mihawk and we still got shit about his past then you can complain about oda being a shit writer and what not. Until then it is what it is my friend. Mihawk will get his time in the sun, just like Dragon will, green bull ect

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Its just reasons ppl try to find cause they dont like Mihawk / dont want Shanks to be weaker

Somehow Odas clear cut words that he is WSS isnt enough


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## Moldrew (Jan 4, 2020)

Shanks is singlehandedly carrying WSS hype both literally and figuratively.

Remove Shanks, and Mihawk is a random Vista tier jabroni.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Moldrew said:


> Remove Shanks


The GOAT Teach will do it soon


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yes as far as we know Mihawk has not fought any top tiers since shanks.


I doubt either were top tier than at best Luffy after Kaido level but that is kind of stretching.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> People seem to have a hard on for Mihawk having feats though, he will get feats when oda decides to focus on his story. We didn't know shit about Big Mom or Kaidous past until....Oda brought them into the story.


Well let's see ~1000 chapter and he was introduced in the first 50 and Unlike Dragon, he is not the head of a secret organization.

We know that they were Yonko, the same rank as WB.

WSS does not share anything, he shared with Shanks a rivalry that was ages ago with a non-Yonko Shanks.


Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Now if Zoro defeats Mihawk and we still got shit about his past then you can complain about oda being a shit writer and what not. Until then it is what it is my friend. Mihawk will get his time in the sun, just like Dragon will, green bull ect


What if Mihwak is done by Shiliew with the help of BB, what then?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> Just like @Ren. said, this is a major copout. He's the WSS but he's conveniently ignoring top tier swordsmen due to, reasons? One-handed Shanks is a Yonkou that clashed with Roger's rival and Big Mom is both a Yonkou and a Rocks crew Legend that clashed with Kaido and was already a big player during Roger's time. Fujitora is an Admiral. Rayligh is/was the Pirate King's First Mate.
> 
> 
> 
> Slice it however you want, but Mihawk shouldn't be ignoring these players if he's interested in retaining the WSS. Which I suppose he isn't, which is why I am saying he's gotten complacent and that affected his strength.



Which top tier swordsmen is he ignoring besides Shanks who is now a cripple?

Rayleigh? How do you know he didn't beat him already?  Fujitora how do you know he didn't beat him already or even considers him a contender for the title? Big Mom how do you know Mihawk even considers her a swordsmen/contender for the title?

Mihawk is the WSS all he has to do is sip tea he doesn't have to do anything to retain his title beyond beating anyone that dares to fight him. As the databook said he has no worthy challengers and is waiting for someone that surpasses Shanks to challenge him. So as far as Mihawk is concerned if your not better then Shanks you aren't really worth his time. 

Mihawks perspective being the one that actually matters here. Doesn't matter if we think Big Mom can one shot Mihawk. If Mihawk doesn't think she is worth his time why would he bother going after her or anyone else for that matter. Now why Mihawk would potentially consider Big Mom, or Fujitora or whoever not worth his time i could only guess and it would just be assumptions on my part. For all we know Mihawk does want to fight Big Mom, but not like he can just go hey big mom lets fight. Shes crazy as fuck and i doubt mihawk is suicidal and would just start rampaging on whole cake island hoping big mom gives him a fair 1v1.

Keep in mind Mihawk has like what half a chapter of dialogue, all of which has nothing to do with himself but his interactions with other characters.  We know jack about his past who he has fought, his opinions on X characters ect. Best we got is a databook saying no ones worth his time including shanks.






> Akainu (the superior) directly contradicted Kizaru tho. Akainu said they don't have the forces to deal with a Big Mom and Kaido alliance, so I am just gonna chalk that up to Kizaru being high/talking shit.



Akainu stopped him because of the Samurai not because of Big Mom or Kaidou though.



Ren. said:


> I doubt either were top tier than at best Luffy after Kaido level but that is kind of stretching.
> 
> 
> Well let's see ~1000 chapter and he was introduced in the first 50 and Unlike Dragon, he is not the head of a secret organization.
> ...



Blame oda my friend i don't write the story, he decided not to tell us anything about his past. I presume he will do so in the future if he chooses not to well thats just bad writing on his part and it is what it is.


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## Tornado (Jan 4, 2020)

Kami no Tenteki said:


> Tbh I'm no weapon expert. But no, it doesn't look like a sword so it's not a sword.
> But if it is, I demand Oda to give a scientifically phrased definition of what a sword is at some point.


Yeah everyone in the OL is either an armchair kendo expert or an expert on Japanese weapons. 

Some light reading fore whoever wants a break from the WSS debate:


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Tornado said:


> Yeah everyone in the OL is either an armchair kendo expert or an expert on Japanese weapons.
> 
> Some light reading fore whoever wants a break from the WSS debate:


Seen

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Its just reasons ppl try to find cause they dont like Mihawk / dont want Shanks to be weaker
> 
> Somehow Odas clear cut words that he is WSS isnt enough



What Oda says: "Mihawk WSS"

What Oda shows: "Mihawk fails at stopping pre TS Luffy and struggles fighting Vista"


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> What Oda says: "Mihawk WSS"
> 
> What Oda shows: "Mihawk fails at stopping pre TS Luffy and struggles fighting Vista"


1 > 2

Luffy is the MC with plot shield - bringing him up at all, especially from a clusterfuck arc like MF, is laughable 
the Vista thing is a straight lie, Mihawk never struggled with Vista (or _anyone_ for that matter), he enjoyed himself in a spar


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> 1 > 2
> 
> Luffy is the MC with plot shield - bringing him up at all, especially from a clusterfuck arc like MF, is laughable
> the Vista thing is a straight lie, Mihawk never struggled with Vista (or _anyone_ for that matter), he enjoyed himself in a spar



The damage control ability is strong in your family.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> The damage control ability is strong in your family.


>>


Shiba D. Inu said:


> Its just reasons ppl try to find cause they dont like Mihawk / dont want Shanks to be weaker
> 
> Somehow Odas clear cut words that he is WSS isnt enough


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Which top tier swordsmen is he ignoring besides Shanks who is now a cripple?



A cripple that is = Yonkou Whitebeard = Kaido = Big Mom. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Rayleigh? How do you know he didn't beat him already? Fujitora how do you know he didn't beat him already or even considers him a contender for the title? Big Mom how do you know Mihawk even considers her a swordsmen/contender for the title?



Thank for proving my point. We don't know if he beat Rayligh and Fujitora. We know he's been inactive. Mihawk not considering Big Mom a swordsman and not consdiering Shanks worthy are both very convenient copout is what I am saying. It's either shit writing, or Mihawk getting complacent and not giving a shit about his title as much as we thought. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Mihawk is the WSS all he has to do is sip tea he doesn't have to do anything to retain his title beyond beating anyone that dares to fight him.



I assure you, Big Mom, Shanks, and Rayleigh do not give a shit about the title. The burden of proof is on Mihawk here. When there are known active big shot Swordsmen standing at the top reaching and nearing a much higher title by Mihawk's own admission. 



> As the databook said he has no worthy challengers and is waiting for someone that surpasses Shanks to challenge him. So as far as Mihawk is concerned if your not better then Shanks you aren't really worth his time.



So you're saying Mihawk is ducking anyone = Shanks? The same Shanks he already ducked and never confirmed to defeat? All I am getting is more fuel to my claim tbh. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Mihawks perspective being the one that actually matters here. Doesn't matter if we think Big Mom can one shot Mihawk. If Mihawk doesn't think she is worth his time why would he bother going after her or anyone else for that matter. Now why Mihawk would potentially consider Big Mom, or Fujitora or whoever not worth his time i could only guess and it would just be assumptions on my part. For all we know Mihawk does want to fight Big Mom, but not like he can just go hey big mom lets fight. Shes crazy as fuck and i doubt mihawk is suicidal and would just start rampaging on whole cake island hoping big mom gives him a fair 1v1.



Mihawk's perspective would matter if he wasn't inactive chilling on his island one-shotting EB fodder. Like it has been said, the Yonkou are actually gaining strength, so Mihawk not fighting anyone of that caliber for X of years is a point against him. It's not like he's even 100% sure of the gap, that slash against Whitebeard is proof. 

And yes, I agree, him going to Yonkou territory challenging a Yonkou for a solo fight would be suicidal. But guess who does that shit? That's right, the Yonkou themselves as apparent by this arc alone. Big Mom went to Wano to fight Kaido, just because the latter wanted to kill someone she wanted to kill. 

If Mihawk really wanted to prove he's > Shanks or Big Mom. He would find a way. 



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Keep in mind Mihawk has like what half a chapter of dialogue, all of which has nothing to do with himself but his interactions with other characters. We know jack about his past who he has fought, his opinions on X characters ect. *Best we got is a databook saying no ones worth his time including shanks.*



Like I said, complacency and laziness. He doesn't care and that will be his downfall. 

Caring >>>>>> in this manga. A villain is defeated when he doesn't care anymore. Teach said caring about your dream >>>>>>>>


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## Quipchaque (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I put haki there because mihawks strength comes from more then just swordsmanship, i left out base stats cause well that goes without saying hopefully XD.
> 
> Mihawk trained Zoro in haki so i doubt haki levels matter in that equation. Its not like Zoro and Mihawk are going to have exactly equal haki stats. Mihawks not gonna go good job in beating me zoro but you only won cause your COA haki is stronger then mine so i keep the title, that would be
> 
> ...



The two bold lines are unbelievably shameless lies. And It's kinda funny too because for some reason Mihawk isnt world's strongest man while Whitebeard was alive even so he is supposedly stronger than Roger. Nice logic guys. The other one I wont even Adress. That is something only desperate people would say.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Charlotte D. Kurisu said:


> A cripple that is = Yonkou Whitebeard = Kaido = Big Mom.



Mihawk has been rivals/friends with Shanks for like 20+ years. I think its safe to assume he has a pretty dame good idea of how strong he is.



> Thank for proving my point. We don't know if he beat Rayligh and Fujitora.



Here is the thing it doesn't matter.

Mihawk is the WSS. Which means he did whatever it was he needed to do to become the WSS. If Oda wants that to include fuji or rayleigh he can. He doesn't have to though.

Mihawk only needed to do whatever it was oda had him do to become the WSS thats it. What that is who knows.



> We know he's been inactive. Mihawk not considering Big Mom a swordsman and not consdiering Shanks worthy are both very convenient copout is what I am saying. It's either shit writing, or Mihawk getting complacent and not giving a shit about his title as much as we thought.



I wouldn't call Mihawk not considering Big mom a swordsman bad writing. He already fought shanks and knows how strong he is he no longer needs to fight him.

Its actually a assumption that Mihawk cares about the title in the first place. We know jack shit about mihawk for all we know the dude just likes to fight and he eventually got the title. So yea maybe he doesn't give a shit about it.

But that also doesn't matter. Did Whitebeard care about the WSM title, does Kaidou give two shits about people calling him the WSC or not? Not that i know of.



> I assure you, Big Mom, Shanks, and Rayleigh do not give a shit about the title. The burden of proof is on Mihawk here. When there are known active big shot Swordsmen standing at the top reaching and nearing a much higher title by Mihawk's own admission


.
I doubt they care and for all we know mihawk doesn't care either.

That's all irrelevant though, only thing that matters is Oda gave it to Mihawk. He could of just as easily given it to Shanks and never made Mihawks character in the first place, but he did make his character back when he planned for the series to take around 5 years and gave it to him,




> So you're saying Mihawk is ducking anyone = Shanks? The same Shanks he already ducked and never confirmed to defeat? All I am getting is more fuel to my claim tbh.



I'm just giving you the current little info we have. Which is based on Mihawks own words and the databook he doesn't care about fighting Shanks. My guess is because he is a cripple, but who knows maybe Mihawk has a big ass head and thinks shanks is fodder trash(doubt it seeing as they are friends)

All i can say with confidence is that Mihawk and Shanks rivalry is done and that they are still on good terms seeing as how Mihawk went out of his way to tell Shanks about Luffy, and the fact he has detailed info on where Shanks likes to hang out(or most likely has shanks vivre card). Beyond that who fucking knows.





> Mihawk's perspective would matter if he wasn't inactive chilling on his island one-shotting EB fodder. Like it has been said, the Yonkou are actually gaining strength, so Mihawk not fighting anyone of that caliber for X of years is a point against him. It's not like he's even 100% sure of the gap, that slash against Whitebeard is proof.



You seem to be viewing this from the perspective that Mihawk isn't already the WSS. Mihawk is not the challenger everyone else is. Mihawk already is top dog.

Why do you think he fucks around in East Blue and stays in a old castle drinking wine and tending to his garden of veggies. The dude is bored basically retired which coincidences with the databook saying nobody else is worth his time and that he is WAITING for a swordmaster that surpasses shanks. Now sure if he wanted to he could go fight his old buddy shanks and chances are shanks wouldn't say no, but for whatever reason he doesn't care to fight shanks anymore.

Now why is Mihawk being a lazy fuck you might wonder fuck if i know. I don't know jack about Mihawk nobody does. Dude is like 43 or something now maybe the fire in his belly has gone out and he is content with just waiting for someone to come fight him. Why he likes to torture east blue fodder is beyond me though, probably also due to plot cause back then the series was suppose to last 5 years so makes sense for oda to introduce mihawk early i suppose.



> And yes, I agree, him going to Yonkou territory challenging a Yonkou for a solo fight would be suicidal. But guess who does that shit? That's right, the Yonkou themselves as apparent by this arc alone. Big Mom went to Wano to fight Kaido, just because the latter wanted to kill someone she wanted to kill.



Big mom and Kaidou are crazy i agree. How does that translate to Mihawk having to be crazy as well.



> If Mihawk really wanted to prove he's > Shanks or Big Mom. He would find a way.



True but that goes back to does Mihawk give a darn or not. Currently based on the data-book that would be no. What his current feelings on Big Mom/Shanks is i wouldn't be able to tell you.



> Like I said, complacency and laziness. He doesn't care and that will be his downfall.



Yea he is complacent for sure but hes King so is he not allowed to be complacent? Espicaily if he doesn't actually give a darn about the WSS title. Why should the King go out of his way to go fight people when he is already King?

The real question is why he chooses to stay in that shitty castle. Dude was a Warlord could of got himself something better then that. Laziness would be my guess didnt want to go through the work of slashing up a kingdom to take there castle.



> Caring >>>>>> in this manga. A villain is defeated when he doesn't care anymore. Teach said caring about your dream >>>>>>>>



Well Zoro is going to beat him. Although it would be a kick in the balls if the only reason Zoro beat Mihawk is cause hes a lazy fuck 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> The two bold lines are unbelievably shameless lies. And It's kinda funny too because for some reason Mihawk isnt world's strongest man while Whitebeard was alive even so he is supposedly stronger than Roger. Nice logic guys. The other one I wont even Adress. That is something only desperate people would say.



The First line is a joke.

The second line is the truth.

Shanks wankers just want it to be untrue cause they want to suck off Shanks more.

*COTC IS FODDER CONTROL ITS NEVER GOING TO BE RELEVANT IN A FIGHT BETWEEN PEERS*


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

@Donquixote Doflamingo you a trooper


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> What Oda says: "Mihawk WSS"
> 
> What Oda shows: "Mihawk fails at stopping pre TS Luffy and struggles fighting Vista"


Stop using this "MC" crap

The MC has plotarmor and dont die

Also lol at Vista.Mihawk was not even serious the whole war

Reactions: Like 1


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Textbox should be big enough...


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Acno said:


> Stop using this "MC" crap
> 
> The MC has plotarmor and dont die
> 
> Also lol at Vista.Mihawk was not even serious the whole war



You're right.

MC Luffy never got his ass kicked by stronger opponents.


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> You're right.
> 
> MC Luffy never got his ass kicked by stronger opponents.


Ass kicked is not the same as being dead

And 1 hit from Mihawks sword=Dead Ruffy ergo his Plotarmor saved his ass


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mihawk going all out without PIS is too deadly for Luffy 

only Zoro can handle it


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Acno said:


> Ass kicked is not the same as being dead
> 
> And 1 hit from Mihawks sword=Dead Ruffy ergo his Plotarmor saved his ass



Typical Mihawk fan fallacy. 

Plot armor prevent from death, not having his ass kicked badly. Re read the manga son. 

And Mihawk wasn't able to do shit to pre TS Luffy, while many other chars almost killed him. 

Deal with it.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 4, 2020)

I've said this before and I'll say it again, what matters is whether the person considers themselves a swordsman, not whether someone else considers them a swordsman. Whitebeard has a strong sword which he uses to great effect, that doesn't make him a swordsman because Whitebeard doesn't consider himself a swordsman, he just considers himself a fighter.

The reason for this is clear - Mihawk is shown to be perfectly willing to accept any and all challengers. So if someone is a swordsman and they want to be the strongest, the person they have to seek out is Mihawk. Every second of every day of every year that goes by and Mihawk remains undefeated is further reinforcement of the title. The fact that Whitebeard doesn't hunt down Mihawk to claim the title of WSS means that Whitebeard doesn't care about being the Worlds Strongest Swordsman and he is therefore not [a swordsman] for the purposes of the title.

Note for keen readers: yes, this does mean that there could be a hypothetical "true" swordsman out there who simply doesn't care about the title for different reasons, for the purposes of this discussion they don't count either, and why should they? If Mihawk has never tested his mettle against them why should they be counted?


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## Gin (Jan 4, 2020)

no


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> I've said this before and I'll say it again, what matters is whether the person considers themselves a swordsman, not whether someone else considers them a swordsman. Whitebeard has a strong sword which he uses to great effect, that doesn't make him a swordsman because Whitebeard doesn't consider himself a swordsman, he just considers himself a fighter.
> 
> The reason for this is clear - Mihawk is shown to be perfectly willing to accept any and all challengers. So if someone is a swordsman and they want to be the strongest, the person they have to seek out is Mihawk. Every second of every day of every year that goes by and Mihawk remains undefeated is further reinforcement of the title. The fact that Whitebeard doesn't hunt down Mihawk to claim the title of WSS means that Whitebeard doesn't care about being the Worlds Strongest Swordsman and he is therefore not [a swordsman] for the purposes of the title.
> 
> Note for keen readers: yes, this does mean that there could be a hypothetical "true" swordsman out there who simply doesn't care about the title for different reasons, for the purposes of this discussion they don't count either, and why should they? If Mihawk has never tested his mettle against them why should they be counted?



You here sis. 

You should not soil yourself by posting here though.


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Gin said:


> no



You here bro 

You should not soil yourself by posting here though.


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## T.D.A (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> What Oda says: "Mihawk WSS"
> 
> *What Oda shows: "Mihawk fails at stopping pre TS Luffy and struggles fighting Vista"*



Except this false. Re-read the manga.


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

T.D.A said:


> Except this false. Re-read the manga.



Except it's raw manga facts. Re-read the manga.


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## Kishido (Jan 4, 2020)

Even Usopp hammer is a sword and it is already black


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## Mariko (Jan 4, 2020)

Kishido said:


> Even Usopp hammer is a sword and it is already black



"Black leg" Sanji


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## Kishido (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> "Black leg" Sanji



And now Stealth Black Leg with swordsmanship abilities 

I bet he will make his kitchen knives Black now

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jan 4, 2020)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> I've said this before and I'll say it again, what matters is whether the person considers themselves a swordsman, not whether someone else considers them a swordsman. Whitebeard has a strong sword which he uses to great effect, that doesn't make him a swordsman because Whitebeard doesn't consider himself a swordsman, he just considers himself a fighter.
> 
> The reason for this is clear - Mihawk is shown to be perfectly willing to accept any and all challengers. So if someone is a swordsman and they want to be the strongest, the person they have to seek out is Mihawk. Every second of every day of every year that goes by and Mihawk remains undefeated is further reinforcement of the title. The fact that Whitebeard doesn't hunt down Mihawk to claim the title of WSS means that Whitebeard doesn't care about being the Worlds Strongest Swordsman and he is therefore not [a swordsman] for the purposes of the title.
> 
> Note for keen readers: yes, this does mean that there could be a hypothetical "true" swordsman out there who simply doesn't care about the title for different reasons, for the purposes of this discussion they don't count either, and why should they? If Mihawk has never tested his mettle against them why should they be counted?


@Donquixote Doflamingo

This is one of the better explanations I have read.

It also works for Zoro.


Mariko said:


> You here sis.


Wait ... sis?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jan 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> @Donquixote Doflamingo
> 
> This is one of the better explanations I have read.
> 
> ...



That is true but I dont think oda needs to go out of his way and have charcters outright say hey guys I'm a Swordsmen.

Should just be common sense really.

Although like I said in my earlier post what matters most in relation to the title is what Mihawk thinks. If Mihawk doesnt consider WB a Swordsmen hes not gonna give a darn about him. Whitebeard can scream all day that he is a Swordsmen but if Mihawk and Big news Morgan disagree, doesnt matter if WB cuts Mihawk clean in half he still wont get the title.


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## Flame (Jan 4, 2020)

Oda: Mihawk is as much of a legend as Whitebeard and Shanks
OL: Mihawk is yonko commander level


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Flame said:


> Oda: Mihawk is as much of a legend as Whitebeard and Shanks
> OL: Mihawk is yonko commander level


That was a mistranslation


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## Tornado (Jan 4, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Shanks wankers just want it to be untrue cause they want to suck off Shanks more.
> 
> *COTC IS FODDER CONTROL ITS NEVER GOING TO BE RELEVANT IN A FIGHT BETWEEN PEERS*


Watch Shanks grow himself a new arm with his haki.

You heard that here first.


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## Dunno (Jan 4, 2020)

The mental gymnastics needed to believe that Whitebeard was a swordsman would put the russians to shame.


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## Flame (Jan 4, 2020)

Seraphoenix said:


> That was a mistranslation


Yeah I thought so too at first. It does sound weird that people would think he's yonko commander level but it's true there are people who think that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mihawk "struggling" with Vista makes sense if we are talking about the god-tier "1v1 always bet on Vista" Vista


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

Flame said:


> Yeah I thought so too at first. It does sound weird that people would think he's yonko commander level but it's true there are people who think that


you know what i meant 

Yeah. They are probably following Marco's lead who thought Vista would be enough to stop him (he was) and Mihawk's who confirmed Vista was enough ('Pls postpone').


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## Tornado (Jan 4, 2020)

Dunno said:


> The mental gymnastics needed to believe that Whitebeard was a swordsman would put the russians to shame.


Simple -
WB's weapon, one of the 12 supreme grade swords, is a Naginata.
Translation for Naginata: "Mowing down sword" or "Reaping sword".
Naginatas are classified as swords in online catalogs (eg: )

Ergo..... WB is a swordsman .
I can totally see someone come to that conclusion without being a retard.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 4, 2020)

What’s so wrong with saying Mihawk> WB guys? He used his sword when clashing with Prime Roger so he is obviously a swordsman.


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Mariko said:


> Typical Mihawk fan fallacy.
> 
> Plot armor prevent from death, not having his ass kicked badly. Re read the manga son.
> 
> ...


TopKek

A sword is way more lethal than Kaidos club/Punch or whatever...

If it hits=RIP.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

if bisento were a sword - it would be called a sword, not a bisento


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

I guess Marie being Marie


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## Mob (Jan 4, 2020)

Acno said:


> TopKek
> 
> A sword is way more lethal than Kaidos club/Punch or whatever...
> 
> If it hits=RIP.


how many high tiers did Mihawk casually one shot with his deadly sword


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jan 4, 2020)

Mob said:


> how many high tiers did Mihawk casually one shot with his deadly sword


0 because Odablocked


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## Steven (Jan 4, 2020)

Mob said:


> how many high tiers did Mihawk casually one shot with his deadly sword


Irrelevant

He is the WSS and automatically stronger than Shanks and Co


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## Soca (Jan 4, 2020)

Tornado said:


> PS: @our overzealous mods: this is not a you-know-what thread in disguise. I feel it is worth discussing this question because there is some confusion here.


ugh

I'm throwing this in the battledome as a mihawk vs shanks thread. When it gets overly toxic again it'll be closed.


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## Soca (Jan 4, 2020)

actually I'll close it right now


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