# [Spoiler] Tobirama vs Tsunade



## joshhookway (Mar 19, 2013)

Location: Konoha Crater
Distance: 30 Meters
Restrictions: Tobirama has summon one Jounin Leveled shinobi
Knowledge: None
SOM: IC


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## Lurko (Mar 19, 2013)

Tobi has like no feats wait...


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## Bonly (Mar 19, 2013)

Still to early for Tobi threads IMO. Only new thing he showed was a sword slash, we still don't know much besides him doing what Kisame+Mei can do Sution wise and his personality towards the Uchiha.


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## Turrin (Mar 19, 2013)

Tobirama doesn't have many feats, but the fact that Tobirama beat MS Izuna when he was still fairly young and had many years to grow after that, makes me believe that Tobirama would most likely beat Tsunade. Especially since Tsunade is primarily a support ninja to begin with.


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## Hossaim (Mar 19, 2013)

He uses his sword slash to decapitate her.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 20, 2013)

OP, too early for this thread but I suggest that you add a stipulation segment and you allow Tobirama the following:

1. Name the jounin he uses (I suggest Gari from Iwa)
2. hiraishin level one (but restrict the number of kunai/swords he can use)

Anyways, add these things together and he destroys Tsunade even with his limited showing


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## Jinemba (Mar 20, 2013)

I didn't see any seals used during Tobirama's HiraishinGiri, but in any case Tobirama stomps this with no difficulty. I am still wondering why people are trying to over analyze and find a way to make Tobirama seem weak or nothing special. 

-He is a Senju
-He is the brother of "The God of Shinobi"
-He has been praised as the ultimate Suiton user
-He has and is the creator of Edo Tensei (One of the most powerful techniques)
-He has and is possibly the creator of FTG (One of the most power techniques)
-He has top notch sensing, able to sense the battlefield from an underground Konoha hideout


Don't over analyze, I understand that we aren't going to throw him in a match up with Madara or Hashirama just yet, but don't think that he will somehow amount to Tsunade level or even close.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 20, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> I didn't see any seals used during Tobirama's HiraishinGiri, but in any case Tobirama stomps this with no difficulty. I am still wondering why people are trying to over analyze and find a way to make Tobirama seem weak or nothing special.
> 
> -He is a Senju
> -He is the brother of "The God of Shinobi"
> ...



Match ups are just as important as strength in the BD.  

We don't know how strong Tobirama is, what he can do, or how he does it.  All we know is that he's generically strong, but the strongest opponent doesn't always win.

For example, suitons never kill anyone, and try to slam Tsunade water won't work.  
He also has a sword now, but he doesn't carry a sword later, so we don't know what he normally carries.  
He created the Edo Tensei, but we don't know if he keeps the materials needed to summon, or who he would summon.  
His thunder god slash happened pretty much off panel.  We don't know how it works.

We completely agree that he's not weak, and off hand I would say that he should probably beat Tsunade or lots of other people, but in reality we don't know, because his style could have a counter, and we wouldn't know what that is.


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## Jinemba (Mar 20, 2013)

"suitons never kill anyone" everything else in your post besides that made sense. Has anyone been killed by Katon or Doton yet? I'm not sure but I don't think so. Suiton is just as deadly as the other elements in fact. And if you want to get technical just because it is water, it is still just as dangerous or more dangerous than something like fire when used in mass quantities like a master suiton user would use. 

No matter how you use it or how much you use of it, fire will always just be a burning ball of heat, and lightning will always just be a big zap. Sution, like Doton can be used in more than one way, it can strike, it can drown, it can physically manipulate the target easily because it has weight which also means it can be used to defend from attacks.


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## Hamaru (Mar 20, 2013)

Even without to much information, we know he beat Izuna, that is enough for him to take this fight.


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## Jad (Mar 20, 2013)

Good god it took an entire debate to suggest a Steel Blade could cut Tsunade in the Gai thread, yet here it's an accepted fact. Just goes to show...What happened to the blade not being able to cut her and all this nonsense?

Anyways, not enough feats for Tobirama, although I DO believe a blade can cut Tsunade, we have no idea what his capable of though. Suitons are just good for pushing people back, Kisames techniques were the only deadly ones. Also S/T jutsu? Tobirama had momentum behind him when he cut Izuna. S/T jutsu implies you move through space and time and come out at point B without traveling. Flying Thunder God Slash could be just a name Minato was inspired to name his technique by. Yes I do know Tobirama has S/T jutsu's but who knows what they are or what it does or how it works.

Although if Tobirama DID use S/T and his Jutsu does work like Minato's but instead he combines it with a slash, for sure he beats Tsunade. His practically a second Minato. But we don't know. Who knows?

Final answer, Hype he wins I guess. Feats, he loses, still not enough on him.


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## Alita (Mar 20, 2013)

With powerscaling and hype tsunade loses. Without it tsunade wins.


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## PopoTime (Mar 20, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> He uses his sword slash to decapitate her.



Just like he did against Izuna, a sharingan user right? 

Tobiriama uses Hiraishingiri, cuts Tsunade's chest, she turns and uses Torsobuster punch on Tobirama's chest.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 20, 2013)

PopoTime said:


> Just like he did against Izuna, a sharingan user right?
> 
> Tobiriama uses Hiraishingiri, cuts Tsunade's chest, she turns and uses Torsobuster punch on Tobirama's chest.



Slow as heck Tsunade is going to turn around and punch a space-time jutsu wielder? 

Even when she had the benefit of appearing in front of Madara through a space-time ninjutsu, Madara could still defend himself against her slow as ass attack


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## PopoTime (Mar 20, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Slow as heck Tsunade is going to turn around and punch a space-time jutsu wielder?
> 
> Even when she had the benefit of appearing in front of Madara through a space-time ninjutsu, Madara could still defend himself against her slow as ass attack



Use of S/T jutsu does not equal normal speed, otherwise Obito would be the fastest being in the Narutoverse ever.

Likewise, just because Minato was very quick even without Hiraishin, you cant use that as a base for other S/T users.










Also lets not forget that Tsunade kicked Madara to no effect, yet was somehow able to kick through his Susan'oo



And a punch from her did this




Besides we are being generous calling Hiraishingiri a S/T jutsu.

If a S/t jutsu is defined as passing from point A to point B instantaneously, then in theory the space in between should not be affected, hence if Hiraishingiri is a S/T jutsu  how can Izuna have been stabbed?


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## Pirao (Mar 20, 2013)

Lacks feats. By hype Tobirama should rape, though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 20, 2013)

We know Tobirama has immense strength, a sword attack, Suiton mastery, chakra sensing and Edo Tensei. You could make a case, but not a strong one with what little we have to work with.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 20, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> "suitons never kill anyone" everything else in your post besides that made sense. Has anyone been killed by Katon or Doton yet? I'm not sure but I don't think so. Suiton is just as deadly as the other elements in fact. And if you want to get technical just because it is water, it is still just as dangerous or more dangerous than something like fire when used in mass quantities like a master suiton user would use.
> 
> No matter how you use it or how much you use of it, fire will always just be a burning ball of heat, and lightning will always just be a big zap. Sution, like Doton can be used in more than one way, it can strike, it can drown, it can physically manipulate the target easily because it has weight which also means it can be used to defend from attacks.



_Generally_, katons never hit their target when they're busy not killing people. 

What I meant by suitons not killing people, isn't that they always got dealt with, avoided, or blocked in some way, but that Zabuza got slammed by a , which is an incredibly powerful suiton, and he survived.  

Zabuza is a strong guy, but he doesn't have any special durability.  Guy also blocked a water shark from shoten Kisame with nunchucks.  I have no doubt that they can seriously mess people up, and that they have potential to kill, (Itachi's suigedon drills are supposed to be able to pierce into people, and if fodder got hit with a water dragon I'm sure they would die) but few elemental attacks score direct hits and prove to be tankable by normal durability people.  When you start talking tanks with super strength or other people with higher durability, their ability to kill drops even lower.



> Slow as heck Tsunade is going to turn around and punch a space-time jutsu wielder?
> 
> Even when she had the benefit of appearing in front of Madara through a space-time ninjutsu, Madara could still defend himself against her slow as ass attack



Check that panel again.  Tsunade's kick got under his guard.  Meanwhile, Muu punched Ei's fist.  Recall now that Ei got his V2 attacks blocked by Madara.

Not that I know whether or not she could actually hit him, because no feats and a mostly off panel jutsu mean we can't actually play out the fight either way, but if he slashes her chest, a counter-attack attempt doesn't seem impossible given her resilience feats and that she's done in in canon repeatedly.  



> Good god it took an entire debate to suggest a Steel Blade could cut Tsunade in the Gai thread, yet here it's an accepted fact. Just goes to show...What happened to the blade not being able to cut her and all this nonsense?



Tobirama has the blade of hype.  Ironically not a kusunagi.


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## joshhookway (Mar 20, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Still to early for Tobi threads IMO. Only new thing he showed was a sword slash, we still don't know much besides him doing what Kisame+Mei can do Sution wise and his personality towards the Uchiha.



Tobirama is the greatest Suiton User ever and S/T Sword Slash is a very impressive feat.

I tobirama easily wins this one. Tsunade can't handle his S/T jutsu and will drown in water. Edo Tensei makes this easier.


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## joshhookway (Mar 20, 2013)

Jad said:


> Good god it took an entire debate to suggest a Steel Blade could cut Tsunade in the Gai thread, yet here it's an accepted fact. Just goes to show...What happened to the blade not being able to cut her and all this nonsense?
> 
> Anyways, not enough feats for Tobirama, although I DO believe a blade can cut Tsunade, we have no idea what his capable of though. Suitons are just good for pushing people back, Kisames techniques were the only deadly ones. Also S/T jutsu? Tobirama had momentum behind him when he cut Izuna. S/T jutsu implies you move through space and time and come out at point B without traveling. Flying Thunder God Slash could be just a name Minato was inspired to name his technique by. Yes I do know Tobirama has S/T jutsu's but who knows what they are or what it does or how it works.
> 
> ...


I think your misunderstanding the definition of momentum. Anything that moves pretty much has mometum.



A particle will not accelerate or deccelerate unless a force acts upon it. If a particle was instant teleported to another location, I would assume it was at the speed it once was as an outside force did not act upon it.

If Tobriama was moving before, he could complete the slash.


Also, IIRC, Minato teleported and immediately used Kunai slash of bee's tail.


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## Bonly (Mar 20, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Tobirama is the greatest Suiton User ever and S/T Sword Slash is a very impressive feat.
> 
> I tobirama easily wins this one. Tsunade can't handle his S/T jutsu and will drown in water. Edo Tensei makes this easier.



Do you have a scan where its stated that he is the greatest Suiton user or that said sword slash was a S/T move?


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## Melodie (Mar 22, 2013)

The outcome of this match all depends on how you want to interpret it. If you're into the usual feat discussion then the victor would be Tsunade without any question, as Tobirama did not show us anything on-panel that could possibly defeat someone within the kage-tier. However, if you would like to interpret it through portrayal, then it's going to be Tobirama; As he has shown such a strong chakra pressure infront of Team Taka, and was able to defeat Izuna.


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## Jinemba (Mar 23, 2013)

For now, HiraishinGiri GG. The manga says that Tobirama can use an FTG sword slash and somehow attack things between point A and B. That is all that needs to be said.

Even if you want to over speculate and say it wasn't s/t even though we clearly see it is the original (so far) Flying Thunder God which is a space time jutsu. Fact is s/t or not, Tobirama's sword slash was able to fatally wound an MS user, even with the sharingan eye abilities that would normally help Izuna see attacks coming. This also makes it painfully clear that the attack was a space/time technique. 

Not only was the attack named as a space/time technique that we know but how the heck else would you explain that a person could face an Uchiha with an MS and simply blitz slash them GG? Izuna should be very strong by powerscaling, he should be somewhere near Tobirama's level to be more precise, you can't just blitz slash GG an opponent who is very close to your level and on top of that the opponent has the MS which would allow him to see attacks coming with ease.

(HIRAISHIN)giri <---space/time
Caught MS off guard <---space time


Based on this Tsunade has no chance of avoiding this attack. Unless you can explain why Tsunade would start a fight with her regeneration on I don't see why Tobirama couldn't catch her with this attack.

On top of that, Tobirama still dominates with Suiton alone, Tsunade comes in for one of her straightforward punches or kick, Tobirama washes her away with a river. She can't catch him off guard with his level of sensing either.


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## Mithos (Mar 24, 2013)

From portrayal, Tobirama probably wins.


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## PopoTime (Mar 24, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> For now, HiraishinGiri GG. The manga says that Tobirama can use an FTG sword slash and somehow attack things between point A and B. That is all that needs to be said.
> 
> Even if you want to over speculate and say it wasn't s/t even though we clearly see it is the original (so far) Flying Thunder God which is a space time jutsu. Fact is s/t or not, Tobirama's sword slash was able to fatally wound an MS user, even with the sharingan eye abilities that would normally help Izuna see attacks coming. This also makes it painfully clear that the attack was a space/time technique.
> 
> ...



You clearly have no idea how a S/t jutsu works then.

S/T jutsu are purely transportation techniques.

It moves the user from Point A to Point B instantly. If this is accepted to be true then the space between Points A and B should not be affected.

If Hiraishingiri is a S/T technique then Izuna shouldnt have been affected.

It looks like Hiraishingiri is just the name of the attack, and not representative of the Hiraishin S/t jutsu.

Just like the Raikagenaut's Nukite isnt actually a stab from hell


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 24, 2013)

The Izuna Tobirama defeated wasn't using any MS techniques, and in fact, he didn't even have his sharingan active. Have another look at his eyes:  _[ 1 ]_ Actually, come to think of it, didn't the Databook say Izuna was blind during the battle in which he was defeated? If so, it would make sense why the only thing he had armed himself with against Tobirama was a generic sword.

And in terms of portrayal, I think many of you overlook the fact that _himself and the Nidaime Raikage_ were left _on the brink of death_ when fighting against Kinkaku and and Ginkaku during an alliance ceremony. Granted not much is known about that fight, and if it even was a proper fight, or just a brief scuffle, but either way it doesn't look on Tobirama's part.

Tobirama's Edo Tensei creates reanimations even weaker than Part I Orochimaru's, and given the extensive preparation it would require for him to summon reanimations, its hardly the most reliable of techniques. Furthermore, any specific hype his suitons once had was quickly nullified when fodders began creating water without a source. That isn't to say he wasn't a great suiton user, for I have no doubt he was at least at Mei Terumi's level when it came to producing powerful water ninjutsu, but certainly creating water without a source is something any suiton user can do these days. Furthermore, water is water, and in the Narutoverse its best feats involve merely pushing foes away.

Now, Tobirama obviously has a powerful chakra, and his S/T ninjutsu still needs to be expanded on. However, I'm merely making the point that his hype and portrayals really aren't anything to marvel at.

So in terms of feats and even implied abilities, Tsunade trumps the Nidaime.​​


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 24, 2013)

Too early to properly decide on a clear winner yet. Locking for the moment.


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