# Pick a Champion Match 1: Low-Kage to Mid-Kage



## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

For General rules see this post:


For reference on the other tiers if necessary see this post:


Quick Summary: 

Pick a character on the list below. Argue why he/she is Mid-Kage instead of Low-Kage, by arguing how he/she beats the other characters on the list, through feats and/or portrayal. The points next to each character is how many Bonus points you get, pick a tougher character to argue for and you get more bonus points. There are no post count rules or regulations. You will be evaluated on strength of your own argument and how effectively you counter the points of others. The thread will be left open for a week, at the end of that week I will post the scores everyone received in 3 days or less. Anyone who participates will get a score but only the winner will get an official write up as to why they won [to save time], but if you have any questions about your score, feel free to PM/VM me and I'll try to provide a quick explanation.

Strength of argument - 20 Points
Formating of Post [I.E. don't make your posts look like shit] - 5 Points
Bonus Points - X-Points [Depending on character selected]

What Your First Post Should look like:

Please Put a header in your first post saying your participating and than the character you selected. That's it. 

List of Characters:

Hebi-Sasuke [No Orochimaru] - 1-Point
Deidara- 2-Points
Kakuzu- 2-Points
Base-Jiraiya -3-Points
Mei - 3-Points
Rasa - 3-Points
Wind-Arc-Naruto- 4-Points 
Rusty-Hanzo - 5-Points
Konan - 5-Points
Darui- 6-Points
Chiyo- 7-Points
Haishi- 7-Points
Mifune- 8-Points
Choji- 8-Points
Sasori [Hiroku and True Body only] - 9-Points
Kisame [Shoten]- 9-Points
P1-Kakashi- 10-Points
Yamato- 10-Points
Hidan- 10-Points
Pre-Oro-DNA-Kabuto- 10-Points


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## Icegaze (May 2, 2015)

*Hiashi*

I am participating.


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

after you pick your champion you can start posting at any time.


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## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

*Deidara
​*
*Gaara and Sunagakure*

Deidara captured Gaara in the desert, and Gaara's  control of sand was an unparalleled feat of ninjutsu that was not matched to that scale again until hundreds of chapters later.

Gaara in the desert is widely considered to be capable of defeating High Kage combatant like Uchiha Itachi, and yet Deidara _captured_ Gaara there, and did so in the middle of Sunagakure no less. 

*Gai and Kakashi*

Deidara's regular exploding clone nearly killed all of Team Kakashi and Team Gai, and would have succeeded if not for a _HUGE_, War-Arc level Kamui insta-zap from Kakashi.

No Low Kage. I repeat: _*no* Low Kage_ could threaten Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Neji, Lee, and more backup at once, without arms. And yet Deidara nearly killed them all while escaping, almost casually.

*Hebi Sasuke*

Deidara is often underestimated because of his loss against Hebi Sasuke, a ninja who had both the Sharingan and raiton element to see and counter Deidara's c4 clone feint.

But being able to c4 clone feint Sasuke means that he could quite possibly c4 clone feint ninja in Hebi Sasuke's insight bracket, including Itachi. Yet Itachi doesn't have the raiton counter.

*Obito Hype*

Due to Deidara's youth, he was not respected to the degree that older ninja are despite his power (Itachi also sees this effect.) Yet Obito, the  big bad of the time, called Deidara's jutsu "terrifying." 

And indeed it was. Deidara and Nagato are the only ninja in Akatsuki capable of completely wiping a country off the map, but Deidara _invented_ his jutsu from scratch like a goddamn artist.

*Objective Abilities*

Deidara is the single most dangerous clone user. Deidara is capable of clone feinting elite Sharingan users and Byakugan users. _Nobody_ on the list of low Kage would see through his trick.

And very few ninja have the insight to even see c4 nanobombs, and fewer still have the ability to use raiton, or the intelligence to know that electrocuting their insides is the counter.

Base Jiraiya, Mei, etc. have no way of even knowing they've been infected. Let's look at even some High Kages: Minato, Kabuto, Bee, Mu... all face a similar problem.​


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

So I can assume your picking Deidara Strategoob? And you know your suppose to argue why he can beat the other characters in that list right? General hype and portrayal is fine, but apply it to why he beats X character on the list. A general statement of just hype alone isn't going to be getting you high points in strength of argument.


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## LostSelf (May 2, 2015)

I was going to take Deidara. However, i think Strategoob would make a better analysis and would explain himself way better than me.

I'll edit this post if i pick one in this round.


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I was going to take Deidara. However, i think Strategoob would make a better analysis and would explain himself way better than me.
> 
> I'll edit this post if i pick one in this round.



Just for clarification two people can pick the same character. Hopefully you join.

Edit: Though obviously this will be less fun if we just get all Deidara's lol


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## Ghost (May 2, 2015)

I'd like to take on Kakuzu.


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## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

*Hebi Sasuke
​*
*Kirin Speed*

No Low Kage has mountain-annihilating jutsu. More importantly though, is how  an IC Sasuke is willing to use Kirin _if he's not extracting information_ from Deidara or Itachi (about Obito.)

Kirin is an attack that would _undeniably_ kill many High Kage, and Sasuke also has the reflexes and speed and summons to survive long enough to set it up if that's his objective from the start.

*Hype Standing*

A critical point in understanding Hebi Sasuke's standing is . Sasuke later acknowledges that Orochimaru was stronger than his pre-Hebi self, _but not his Hebi incarnation._ 

Orochimaru, at a minimum, is a solid Mid Kage ninja, feared throughout the world. Yet it was _impossible_ for him to defeat Itachi. But not so for Hebi Sasuke, the fusion of the two.

*Against Deidara*

In my last post, you can see my argument for why Deidara is at _least_ a very strong Mid Kage, and yet Sasuke was capable of defeating him  in the hole (Kirin).

Admittedly, Sasuke was a great match-up for Deidara. Regardless though, being able to hold back and defeat someone that captured Gaara in the desert while holding back, isn't Low Kage level.

*Against Itachi*

Unfortunately, Hebi Sasuke is widely underestimated because a sick Itachi played him so well, but that's more a testament to Itachi's mental abilities, in  his brother's moves beforehand

If we put any Mid Kage in that situation, and assume that sick Itachi had put as much dedication into studying and preparing and knowing his enemy that well, then it wouldn't go well for them either.

*Objective Abilities*

As stated before, no Low Kage has S-rank jutsu like Kirin.  In addition to this, Hebi Sasuke has some powerful jutsu that he never had to fully utilize together.

For instance, he could call upon Manda, who is perhaps the single fastest and most powerful non-Bijuu summon in the manga, easily capable of keeping Sasuke safe and alive at a distance.

That, combined with his own speed, reflexes, and analytical abilities that he flaunted against Deidara and Itachi, indicate to me that _*Kirin is always on the table*_ against all Low and Mid Kage levels.

Certainly no Low Kage has an answer to Sasuke's immediate dedication in using Kirin as he was prepared to do against Team Kakashi, with or without Manda helping buy time.

​


Turrin said:


> So I can assume your picking Deidara Strategoob? *And you know your suppose to argue why he can beat the other characters in that list right?* General hype and portrayal is fine, but apply it to why he beats X character on the list. A general statement of just hype alone isn't going to be getting you high points in strength of argument.



Oops, I'll edit in a section about that.​


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## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

On second thought, I'll just wait to debate against other individuals that participate. Writing an individual write-up for each ninja battle, explaining why my ninja wins 15 times over seems excessive.

Opening with an overview of manga portrayal and ability assessment is a good place to start, and if somebody argues that, say, Kakuzu would beat Hebi Sasuke, then I'll jump in.​


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## Rocky (May 2, 2015)

*Participating - Mifune*

*Portrayal Throughout the Story*

When gauging the placement of _any_ character on a tier list, author intent and general portrayal of the character's holistic strength is just as, if not more, important than actual battle feats themselves. Unfortunately, Mifune hasn't received much in the way of hype, but what _is_ there implies that he may be more powerful than the community originally thought. 

The two titles Mifune holds are "General of the Land of Iron" and "5th Division Commander of the Allied Shinobi Forces." While not much is known about the Land of Iron, it's perfectly reasonable to assume that obtaining a high-ranking military position like general is not a simple task in a country with a _powerful_ military. Now, the five men who held the division commander position varied in strength, so nothing certain can be drawn from Mifune being one of them. That said, sharing a title with other powerhouses like Kakashi or Gaara cannot be a bad thing.

Perhaps the most impressive accomplishment Mifune has to his name is battling Hanzō in his younger days. Hanzō was a widely known _monster_ when it came to combat, driving fear into the hearts of many throughout most of his life. Even Jiraiya, an established legend, was surprised that Hanzō was defeated, even by the leader of the Akatsuki. A leader recognized by both Tsunade & Jiraiya to be _no joke._ 

Clearly, Hanzō is powerful. While Mifune did not win the fight, I want to bring attention to Hanzō's _appearance_ after the battle concluded. Bruised, scratched, and shirtless. Surely, this was no easy bout for either fighter, which is further supported by Hanzō's _reasoning_ for keeping his mask on. Hell, compare Hanzō's physical state there to _when he had just defeated the Sannin_, and _Mifune_ appears to be the one that presented the greater challenge. 

*Battle Feats*

Mifune had very little panel time to accumulate feats, but what he did display was ridiculous striking speed with his blade, which grants him a mastery of the short range that isn't very common. Iaidō interrupting hand seals basically screws over any ninja that is reliant upon them to fight.

Look at the top five ninja on the Low-Kage list: Sasuke, Deidara, Kakuzu, Base Jiraiya, and Mei. Plug them into Hanzō's spot as Mifune's opponent during the war. Sasuke should be able to cope with Raiton flow and Sharingan, but as for the next four? Screwed. Kakuzu cannot activate Domu, Deidara cannot detonate bombs, Jiraiya cannot summon, and Mei....Mei can't do anything.

With knowledge of his abilities and a great distance, it's feasible that shinobi can cope with Mifune's speed far better than Hanzō could. Conditions can affect any fight though, so this shouldn't take away from Mifune's lethality. Even when you look at the next tier, guys like Mū, Danzō, Pain-Arc Naruto, Ōnoki, and Hiruzen all struggle or outright _lose_ if their hand seals get blocked. 

This fact alone shows that Mifune is capable of fighting on the Mid-Kage tier. Even if he lacks versatility and raw power, quick & precise attacks can be just as deadly (I'm looking at you, Minato). When factoring in Mifune's experience and wisdom, it's hard to see him not belonging closer to the Kages themselves as opposed to their bodyguards.


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## Sadgoob (May 2, 2015)

I'm going to do Choji and Hiashi too if nobody else does. ​


Rocky said:


> Sasuke, Deidara, Kakuzu, Base Jiraiya, and Mei. Plug them into Hanzō's spot as Mifune's opponent during the war. Sasuke should be able to cope with Raiton flow and Sharingan, but as for the next four? Screwed. Kakuzu cannot activate Domu, *Deidara cannot detonate bombs*, Jiraiya cannot summon, and Mei....Mei can't do anything.



*Deidara Counter​*Remember how Mifune's style works. He's fast and aggressive and prevents _hand seals_. But Deidara doesn't give a  about hands, and has escaped _entire teams_ of CQC ninja elites _without arms_.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 2, 2015)

*Ino*

Dah best.  

Others: Not dah best.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 2, 2015)

I had a nice post for Konan but NF ate it.  I'll do it later.


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## Sans (May 2, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I had a nice post for Konan but NF ate it.  I'll do it later.



We both know that's not true.


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## Turrin (May 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> On second thought, I'll just wait to debate against other individuals that participate. Writing an individual write-up for each ninja battle, explaining why my ninja wins 15 times over seems excessive.
> 
> Opening with an overview of manga portrayal and ability assessment is a good place to start, and if somebody argues that, say, Kakuzu would beat Hebi Sasuke, then I'll jump in.​



This is fine as well.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

one question strat 

sasuke implied he can use kirin with his own chakra how does that change things?

give your analysis


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Hiashi should be mid kage level 
because this attack 

proof that his Raiton Armour turns off 

note the size of the ninja next to the tail. and tell me honestly if a ninja hit by that can actually survive 

proof that his Raiton Armour turns off 
is described not once but twice by kishi the author as super fast 

The juubi tail is the size of a boss summon. 

we have seen much smaller scaled attacks are perfectly capable of killing ninja such as kakashi

I dont see any ninja without super human durability or some automatic defense not dying if this technique hits them

note kishi calls the technique more than a compensation for taijutsu limited strike range

defensively being able to slap away the juubi tail again even with some help is a ridiculous feat

when we imagine gedo a fly to juubi tanked BM chouji punch without even slightly moving 
proof that his Raiton Armour turns off 

if u look at the second panel posted the crater left by kaiten shows you just how large a defense he can muster 

defensively and offensively hiashi outdoes the low kage levels in my opinion. here is the entry of air palm

do read it. then compare it to the offensive attacks used by other low level kage



> Eight Trigrams* Vacuum Palm (八卦空掌, Hakke Kuushou)
> Taijutsu, Kekkei Genkai, No rank, Offensive, Short to mid-range (0-10m)
> User: Hyuuga Neji
> 
> ...



clearly not an exaggeration considering it did deflect a massive all powerful target.

do note this attack can aim vitals. so from the implications and scale of the attack it can easily 1 shot a boss summon. notice it can be used to target vitals.


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2015)

I was on the bandwagon, by the time Hiashi made this feat. I remembe he was pitted against taijutsu users such as Tsunade, in wich i was saying Hiashi wins this. However, that feat, along with the DB stats mentioning Neji, has a flaw. It says it targets your vitals, even yet, Shoten Kisame took one like nothing.

However, this attack is another one that falls into the "useless" (not literally) category (in debates) just because Kisame survived it instead of saying Kisame is freakinglish durable. Hirudora and MP knows that feeling. It is about time we begin to think otherwise as Kisame's body has been "intact" after receiving attacks said to be very powerful. But oh well.

Edit: That last paragraph was assuming it damaged your vitals  like Jyuken.

If his attacks targets and damages the vitals, i support that Hiashi be at the very least, near mid-kage.


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## Alex Payne (May 6, 2015)

It targets vitals in a sense that the force is applied to specific body parts with decent precision. It isn't Jyuken. Simple controlled air blast.


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2015)

Then, if it doesn't bypass the body towards the organs like Jyuken, very durable or resilient characters should take that attack just like Kisame.


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> one question strat
> 
> sasuke implied he can use kirin with his own chakra how does that change things?
> 
> give your analysis



I think that means he can_ set it up_ with his own chakra and katons, which he absolutely can, and was implied when he was so quickly going to use it against Naruto, Yamato, Sai, and Sakura.

Without the additional heat from Amaterasu it might be moderately smaller, but Kirin would be strong enough to kill most ninja even at half power, and its main pro is that it's basically unavoidable.​


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

*Choji
​*
*Strength*

Through scaling, Choji easily has the best strength feat in the series. Jirobo casually tossed a boss-summon Choji, weighing millions of pounds, into the air. Even Tsunade would be proud.

Then Choji casually blocks that Tsunade-level feat _with his weak hand_. 100% of his chakra was in his other hand. His full strength is arguably _hundreds_ of times greater than that.

*Speed*

Although it's not highlighted, Choji's Butterfly Mode increases speed greatly. He easily flash-stepped Jirobo when he was previously incapable of outmoving him at all.

As perhaps a low Jonin in base, the Butterfly enhancement would put his speed at a pace completely capable of keeping up with speedy ninja, and his massive size is an additional advantage.

*Hype*

Choji was undeniably shown as the hero of one of the alliance's major battles, outshining all other ninja present, and was shown to be instrumental in defeating Kakuzu (and likely many others.) 

He took what is a death-causing physical jutsu, _like Hachimon_, and is capable of not only surviving it, but activating it without drugs like his fellow clan members. He's Akimichi-Jesus. 

*Objective Abilities*

Choji is essentially Gamaken, if Gamaken could flash-step faster than ninja can see, and had Tsunade-level strength. Most ninja simply cannot handle that sort of physical domination. At all.

Animal Path atop the Cerberus would certainly be put down in an instant if Jiraiya could summon giant Butterfly Choji to buy him time to enter Sage Mode. ​


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## LostSelf (May 6, 2015)

Millions of pounds Chouji? Could you please link me to it? Not that i don't believe you, i just don't remember. That would change my mind on Chouji a lot.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I was on the bandwagon, by the time Hiashi made this feat. I remembe he was pitted against taijutsu users such as Tsunade, in wich i was saying Hiashi wins this. However, that feat, along with the DB stats mentioning Neji, has a flaw. It says it targets your vitals, even yet, Shoten Kisame took one like nothing.




this is true. shouten kisame took it casually. it could simply mean neji isnt good at using it. 

A point hiashi makes. their air palm isnt fast enoguh to deflect mere mokuton branches. yet his air palm can slap juubi tail away. 

However i dont see hiashi beating tsuande. Not when she can heal using the seal on her forehead, alternate source of chakra to the one she normally has. So even closing her chakra points wont help. 

She slaps him to death



> However, this attack is another one that falls into the "useless" (not literally) category (in debates) just because Kisame survived it instead of saying Kisame is freakinglish durable. Hirudora and MP knows that feeling. It is about time we begin to think otherwise as Kisame's body has been "intact" after receiving attacks said to be very powerful. But oh well.



kisame tanking neji baby version doesnt imply when hit by a massive version of it. that he would be just fine. it is also entirely possible neji didnt aim well and simply missed a vital organ. 

A jutsu can be dangerous however if you dont know how to use it properly then it becomes alot less dangerous



> Edit: That last paragraph was assuming it damaged your vitals  like Jyuken.



which kishi says it can. One must assume an expert at using the jutsu can actually target vitals. 

The same way sharingan grants genjutsu yet sasuke genjutsu is weak sauce compared to itachi's. 



> If his attacks targets and damages the vitals, i support that Hiashi be at the very least, near mid-kage.



it should as stated in the DB. am glad you support it. 

targetting vitals is hardly a hyperbolic statement which is why i believe it should be able to

note hirudora in the DB says it hits so hard it leaves nothing behind. Yet when used on 3 occassions, even against kisame. the target remained. 

thats a hyperbole.


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> *Choji
> ​*
> *Strength*
> 
> ...



ill rep you. nice one. 
i dont have an argument against it. ill think of something though

i have. While chouji should be no doubt as strong as tsunade. He doesnt have much in the realm of defense though. He is still quite vulnerable. 

i feel mid kage level should have defensive techniques. or they are essentially glass canons


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i have. While chouji should be no doubt as strong as tsunade. He doesnt have much in the realm of defense though. He is still quite vulnerable.
> 
> i feel mid kage level should have defensive techniques. or they are essentially glass canons



Well creatures of that size are innately crazy durable in Narutoverse. Manda was able to briefly survive a 10-kilometer explosion (many times larger than an atom bomb.)

Choji also retains a high level of speed and can use jutsu like shushin, so he'd take far less hits than giant summons would as well. He's definitely no glass canon.​


LostSelf said:


> Millions of pounds Chouji? Could you please link me to it? Not that i don't believe you, i just don't remember. That would change my mind on Chouji a lot.



Well, a blue whale weighs just under a half million pounds and is way smaller than giant Choji, so Jirobo casually tossing a million pounds wouldn't surprise me. (He was not strained.)

And that amount of strength was effortlessly stopped by Butterfly Choji when 100% of his chakra-enhanced strength was stored in his _other_ hand. _Giant_ Butterfly Choji's _100%_ chakra-hand is crazy.​


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Hiashi should be mid kage level
> because this attack:



I definitely agree with you. His ninjutsu power puts most Mid Kage to shame, and becuase of his Byakugan, it's virtually impossible to get past his mega-Kaiten. Upper Mid Kage IMO.​


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Well creatures of that size are innately crazy durable in Narutoverse. Manda was able to briefly survive a 10-kilometer explosion (many times larger than an atom bomb.)​




yh i noticed they seem to be. though manda wasnt hit by the full blast. but lets not get into that



> Choji also retains a high level of speed and can use jutsu like shushin, so he'd take far less hits than giant summons would as well. He's definitely no glass canon.



chouji speed aint that much though. he gets lighter in BM mode but lets not make it sound like he fast. gaint summons like gamaken and bunta can jump and cover distances easily. they still are pretty easy to hit



> Well, a blue whale weighs just under a half million pounds and is way smaller than giant Choji, so Jirobo casually tossing a million pounds wouldn't surprise me. (He was not strained.)​




i dunno about the weight. but 1M pounds seems alot. 
not that it matters though. jirobo was shown to be super strong and BM chouji is far stronger

BM mode also multiplies his strength by 100 btw.



> And that amount of strength was effortlessly stopped by Butterfly Choji when 100% of his chakra-enhanced strength was stored in his _other_ hand. _Giant_ Butterfly Choji's _100%_ chakra-hand is crazy.


[/QUOTE]

yh having his strength multiplied by 100 would do that


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I definitely agree with you. His ninjutsu power puts most Mid Kage to shame, and becuase of his Byakugan, it's virtually impossible to get past his mega-Kaiten. Upper Mid Kage IMO.​



I wouldnt say upper mid kage

the issue with kaiten is. once he stops spinning he is a sitting duck in that instance. granted he can still react but it all depends on the level of attack 

neji reacted to a projectile but it would be alot harder to react to an actual mid kage level attack after the spin for example

maybe the lowest of mid kage


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> chouji speed aint that much though. he gets lighter in BM mode but lets not make it sound like he fast. gaint summons like gamaken and bunta can jump and cover distances easily. they still are pretty easy to hit



That is part of my point. Choji is a giant _ninja_. We've seen him move faster than people can see. It's not something boss summons can do, but Choji can. He's a super fast, super strong boss summon.

That's his power. It's hax. Because it's a jutsu that is supposed to kill the user, like Gai's Hachimon. I think giant Butterfly Chouji would rip through most Low Kage ninja with little problem.​


Icegaze said:


> maybe the lowest of mid kage



I can see Hiashi beating Kakuzu, Sasori, and Gengetsu.​


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## Sadgoob (May 6, 2015)

*Base Itachi 
​*
*Speed*

Itachi is the only ninja aside from v2 A shown blitzing  fully developed  with his shunshin. His shunshin also  Bee's ability to track twice within a few moments of one another. He switches out clones faster than Sharingans and  can notice

*Genjutsu*

Itachi has defeated multiple Mid Kage with genjutsu, and even if ninja know to avoid his eyes, he can use  genjutsu or use just his finger to capture them. Itachi is also famous for  swaths of ninja, like when making Deidara nearly kill himself.

*Hype*

Base Itachi (or his clone) casually defeated  and  and Orochimaru. And since the author has base Itachi no-diffing S-ranks and Akatsuki-killers, then it's safe to say base Itachi's comfortably above the Low Kage level.

*Objective Abilities*

Base Itachi's lethality is seen with Bee. Naruto, Nagato, and Itachi help or warn Bee about Itachi's speed flanking him. Samehada and Gyuki block ninjutsu for him. Hachibi, Itachi, and Samehada help him deal with genjutsu. All this non-stop assistance _in a few pages_.

But most low/mid Kage don't _have anywhere near_ Bee's reflexes or battle sense. Put them in Bee's place, give them those same advantages, and they wouldn't be able to cope purely because they couldn't react quite in time, even with warnings and assistance.
​


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That is part of my point. Choji is a giant _ninja_. We've seen him move faster than people can see. It's not something boss summons can do, but Choji can. He's a super fast, super strong boss summon.
> 
> That's his power. It's hax. Because it's a jutsu that is supposed to kill the user, like Gai's Hachimon. I think giant Butterfly Chouji would rip through most Low Kage ninja with little problem.​



he moved faster than jirobo can see. granted as a genin but thats hardly impressive. 

ah most low kage ninja with no problem? depends give me 2 examples please. this assumes hiashi is mid kage ninja. cuz hiashi would floor him


> I can see Hiashi beating Kakuzu, Sasori, and Gengetsu.​


[/QUOTE]

sasori? nah common!!! i dont see that happening. sasori would have him on the defensive for most of the match. would be a kidomaru vs neji repeat. Air palm would be a real handy trick though. thinking about it. its not impossible 

gengetsu tell me how that goes. how does he see through the clam? dojutsu isnt proven to work though

assume he cant does that change things?

kakuzu quite honestly floors him. i cant even slightly see a scenario where he doesnt die against kakuzu


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## Alex Payne (May 7, 2015)

Strategos is cheating.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@Strategos 
you are cheating 

nice on on itachi though. he is certainly above low kage level by far. if we consider how easily he can defeat mei with just his sharingan


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## Sadgoob (May 7, 2015)

Cheating? ​


Icegaze said:


> he moved faster than jirobo can see. granted as a genin but thats hardly impressive.



Moving faster than any human can see is still something no giant summon is capable of. CS2 Jirobo is also low Jonin level, as he nearly defeated Neji, Lee, Naruto, etc. at once in base.

Which would put adult Butterfly Choji in at least the Jonin range of speed, and as a giant, whose every step covers far more distance, he'd be in the speedy ninja category hands down.​


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Fair enough start
Chouji ain't half bad 

But when we consider what the likes of Hebi sasuke can do in terms of speed chouji speed becomes sluggish 

Even haku speed is significantly above chouji's . Won't put chouji speed above asuma's tbh . Even with being a giant


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## LostSelf (May 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Well, a blue whale weighs just under a half million pounds and is way smaller than giant Choji, so Jirobo casually tossing a million pounds wouldn't surprise me. (He was not strained.)
> 
> And that amount of strength was effortlessly stopped by Butterfly Choji when 100% of his chakra-enhanced strength was stored in his _other_ hand. _Giant_ Butterfly Choji's _100%_ chakra-hand is crazy.​




Well, i seriously never thought about that. Pretty cool, though. It could rival or best Tsunade's best strenght feat without chakra enhancement. However, i (myself) wouldn't go to far to think Kishi made Jirobo stronger than Tsunade. But even then, i never thought Choji had _that_ strenght.​


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## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

Strategoob, I appreciate the effort put into the thread, considering the less then spectacular turn out, but if you actually want to be judged you better select one character to go with, otherwise I will intentionally evaluate you on thee weakest one of your arguments, because otherwise it simply would not be fair to others.

Edit: and right now the weakest one is the Three-Tome Itachi one because he isn't even a real character in this discussion, so disqualification.


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## Sadgoob (May 7, 2015)

Winning isn't my goal. I just like arguing for underestimated ninja. 

I select Choji though.


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## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Winning isn't my goal. I just like arguing for underestimated ninja.
> 
> I select Choji though.



K i'll evaluate you based on Choji, but please don't argue for anyone underestimated Ninja that aren't on the list and stick to one. You can make your own thread for that.


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## Sadgoob (May 8, 2015)

My mistake. I figured you just forgot base Itachi since other popular base/weakened/restricted characters were there. ​


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## Turrin (May 8, 2015)

@Everyone. If you guys/gals want this to work we really need more activity here. The thread has been opened for a week, and besides Strategoob and to a certain extent Rocky, there has been very few activity going on. At this rate while I will judge this thread, probably not going to do another one. Hit me up though if you need an extension for whatever reason.


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## Alex Payne (May 8, 2015)

Give me 24 hours and I will write about Chiyo. I was planning to do that right away but one of my teeth fucked me up real good.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2015)

I think i'll leave this open till Tuesday, and than see where were at.


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## Alex Payne (May 9, 2015)

*Poison*​
    One of the many things often overlooked about Chiyo - she normally uses poison in battles. She didn't show it when fighting Sasori(probably because it wasn't relevant in that particular battle) but she calls herself a poison specialist and mentions only Tsunade (the best medic in Narutoverse at the time) being capable of countering her poisons in the past. Meaning that her poisons while not top tier(that goes to Sasori and Hanzo) could still be considered  extremely deadly and difficult to counter. With only a handful people in the Narutoverse having sufficient expertise to do so. So against the majority of foes the infamous "one scratch = gg" is also applicable to Chiyo. To a certain extent at least. 


*Taijutsu*​
    Another rarely mentioned bit of information is Chiyo's hyped taijutsu which was highlighter in DB3. In both character description 





> Chiyo, a veteran kunoichi who once left foreign shinobi awestruck,  thanks to her superior skill in medical ninjutsu, *taijutsu*, and  puppeteering jutsu. Now however, she's a Sunagakure (Hidden Sand)  councilor, perfectly happy to just sit around a fishing pond with her  little brother.


 and Taijutsu Stat(same 4.5 as people like Itachi, Kakashi, Asuma, Hidan and Kisame). So you have a puppeteer who can also kick a fair amount of ass if she is forced to fight in CQC by herself. Removing "puppeteers are weak in CQC" altogether. Having high level taijutsu expertise should translate into puppets too. Taijutsu expert would know a lot of cool moves to use via puppets. And would have an easier time facing other taijutsu users. 


*Support*​
    High level medical expertise in both healing and anti-poison. Ability to help scrubs by controlling them via chakra strings. And of course one of her trumps - Kishou Tensei. Which is basically a watered down Rinne Tensei. _Rinnegan_'s ability. Not only she can bring back to life one of her teammates. She can also heal mortal wounds without dying herself - if she is quick enough. Plus somewhat interesting ability to breath life into a puppet. Just by considering her aforementioned support abilities she is easily in Kage-class in my opinion. 


*Fuinjutsu*​
    She was the one who sealed Shukaku into Gaara. She also showed a fair amount of knowledge about handling Bijus. It is safe to consider that if someone knows how to seal a biju and create a Jinchuriki - that person also should have at least few handful supplementary seals that might be helpful in combat. And ability to quickly recognize and counter enemy's seals. That is all aside from her impressive chakra sealing seal. 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> Sealing Technique: Lion Closing Roar (封印術・獅子閉哮, Fuuinjutsu: Shishi Heikou)
> Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, A-rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Chiyo
> 
> This technique draws a "sealing formula" on, for instance, the ground or  a wall and completely blocks the target's chakra. In the centre of the  sealing formula is the "閉" ("close," "shut") symbol. *Furthermore, the  tenketsu of the person caught in the centre are all closed*. However,  getting the target exactly inside the sealing formula is difficult.  Therefore, one can make use of various measures, like preparing a puppet  or ninja tool with the sealing formula.







*Puppeteering*​
    Not much should be said about it. Mother and Father got a few good showings but were quickly made unusable by Satetsu. Which actually allows us to speculate that there were more abilities hidden inside them. Chiyo was also quite at a disadvantage against Sasori. And didn't show the full extent of her puppetry. Then there is Kage-class Chikamatsu Collection. 10 puppets that were rumored to allow Chiyo to solo a castle. 10 puppets that held their own against 100+ puppets for a while. Showing multiple strong abilities. And a nifty chakra sealer to help against durability freaks and regenerators. Now imagine them also having poison? Shit is scary. 


*Spoiler*: __ 





> White Secret Technique: The Chikamatsu* Collection of Ten Puppets (白秘技・十機近松の集, Shirohigi: Jikki Chikamatsu no Shuu)
> Ninjutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Defensive, Supplementary, All ranges
> User: Chiyo
> 
> ...





 Delicious and completely crazy hype. Which even I can't take seriously. But still something to consider.

Another puppet-related thing is Chiyo's own body - chakra shield that was able to stop sound-boom generating Satetsu attack. Without any issues. An underrated defense imo. 


*Summary*​
    The thing about "level" is that it doesn't get gauged by abilities strictly related to direct combat. In Chiyo's case her combat abilities could be considered Low Kage(but not a weaker one) but if we look at her as a whole... High Tier Medic with S-Ranked Kage-class Tensei Jutsu that is almost Rinnegan-level, High Tier Poison Specialist whose poisons need top-tier poison/medic expertise to counter and whose anti-poison expertise were good enough to tackle Hanzo(you know the guy - walking legendary poison cloud), expert Taijutsu user, High Tier Fuinjutsu user that can seal a biju, High Tier Puppeter with hyped S-Ranked Kage-class Puppet Collection, 2 Jonin+ handy puppets and a modified body. It is amazing in how many advanced many fields she was able to excel. Then throw in a massive amount of knowledge and combat experience. She is a boss.


Will post about matchups a bit later.


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## Sadgoob (May 9, 2015)

I can see Chiyo beating ten thousand non-ninjas with one puppet, considering Sasuke beat "countless" (thousands?) of ninja. She'd mow people down like in Dynasty Warriors.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 9, 2015)

In the war arc, she was mowing down samurai with a samurai she hijacked to be her puppet.  I could see young Chiyo pulling a Sasuke.


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## Rocky (May 9, 2015)

Fodder soloing apparently varies. The 3rd Raikage is basically black Jesus in the eyes of cannon fodder, yet couldn't mow down ten thousand in three days.


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## Sadgoob (May 9, 2015)

I'd chalk it up to the quality of ninja being mowed down, or perhaps there were a few strong ones present.​


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## LostSelf (May 10, 2015)

Yep. If we consider that, the Third Raikage is capable of taking down that Sasuke and Chiyo together, then yeah, the fodders he fought were notably stronger. Or should've been.


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## Sadgoob (May 10, 2015)

I don't think the 3rd Raikage would beat that Sasuke. v1 speed isn't superior to Sasuke, so he can evade the linear offense for quite some time, and genjutsu and Kirin would still work on him.​


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I don't think the 3rd Raikage would beat that Sasuke. v1 speed isn't superior to Sasuke, so he can evade the linear offense for quite some time, and genjutsu and Kirin would still work on him.​



The 3rd Raikage would give nothing but the _finest_ of work to all versions of Sasuke up to the ones that can hit him with Amaterasu. Make a thread if you want to debate it.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (May 10, 2015)

*Darui*
_Raikage's Good Left Arm_​
*Offensive Ninjutsu*
It's no secret that Darui is an offensive powerhouse.  Kuropansa is a high-powered AoE jutsu that was shown to be capable of taking out a dozen or so Zetsu clones with one casting.  Interestingly, one of the Kumo fodder-nin in Darui's platoon commented on it having been a jutsu inherited from the Third Raikage, and that Darui was the only one to so inherit it.  Obviously, the power of this jutsu depends somewhat on the terrain, with its AoE being dramatically increased in watery environments.  However, Darui is capable of generating a significant volume of water with Suijinheki (as we see when he  against Sasuke during the Kage Summit).  Spraying his opponents with water and creating even a shallow pool on the floor would allow him to dramatically increase the usefulness of Kuropansa.

What's even more interesting about this is that, in the panel I linked above, we see Darui casting Kangehika _while he's still spitting out the water for Suijinheki_.  This shows that Darui is capable of beginning a second jutsu while a previous jutsu is still in progress.  Thus, there would be very little delay between Darui generating needed water and slamming his opponent with a Kuropansa.  

Darui's other major offensive technique is Laser Circus.  Because it generates multiple beams, it's great for crowd control against enemies with summons or other minions (Base Jiraiya, Chiyo, etc).  The fact that the laser beams are guided and have pinpoint accuracy (note Darui hitting Ginkaku, who's holding Samui, without hurting her) means that they can get around most physical obstacles.  Ginkaku noted that the beams are also quite fast, which would further impair an opponent's ability to block or dodge them--this is particularly true for those with a mostly-stationary fighting style like the two puppeteers.

It should go without saying that Darui's mastery of raiton should make him a truly dangerous opponent for Deidara in particular.  

*Defenses*
Darui's major defensive jutsu is Suijinheki.  By electrifying it with Kangehika, as he did against Sasuke, he can shock anyone who tries to get through it, giving himself a further tactical advantage.

*Weapon Use and Taijutsu*
Darui's equipped with a broadsword that he can raiton-flow, and has also shown the ability to flow projectile weapons such as shuriken.  He was also fast enough to get into CQC range with Sasuke during the split-second it took the latter to see through Shi's Raikochu genjutsu.  (And if he could keep up with MS Sasuke, he shouldn't have too much trouble with the Hebi Sasuke on this list.)

*Intellect*
Darui was able to deduce the workings of the treasures wielded by the Kin/Gin brothers and avoid being drawn into the Crimson Gourd.  His intelligence would help him to figure out the mechanics of jutsu he hasn't seen before and to analyze an opponent's fighting style.  He would probably find it easy to manipulate less-intelligent opponents (*cough* Hidan *cough*) into the tactical position he wants them in, and to resist being similarly manipulated by fellow smart fighters like Chiyo and her grandson.

*Chakra Capacity*
Darui was able to successfully use the treasures he took from the Kin/Gin brothers.  Given that these require a massive chakra capacity to use, and that Darui had already been fighting for some time (using such powerful jutsu as Kuropansa and Laser Circus), this indicates that he has substantial reserves.  In a one-on-one fight, he could likely outlast members of this tier who don't have as much stored power to draw on, such as Part 1 Kakashi.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

Daenerys Stormborn said:


> *Darui*
> _Raikage's Good Left Arm_​
> *Offensive Ninjutsu*
> It's no secret that Darui is an offensive powerhouse.  Kuropansa is a high-powered AoE jutsu that was shown to be capable of taking out a dozen or so Zetsu clones with one casting.  Interestingly, one of the Kumo fodder-nin in Darui's platoon commented on it having been a jutsu inherited from the Third Raikage, and that Darui was the only one to so inherit it.  Obviously, the power of this jutsu depends somewhat on the terrain, with its AoE being dramatically increased in watery environments.  However, Darui is capable of generating a significant volume of water with Suijinheki (as we see when he  against Sasuke during the Kage Summit).  Spraying his opponents with water and creating even a shallow pool on the floor would allow him to dramatically increase the usefulness of Kuropansa.
> ...



Fair enough but none of that should put him at mid Kage level status 
When we imagine he lacks GG type techniques or a super durable defense which most mid Kage level are equipped with 

Even the likes of hiashi defensively are well above Darui


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## Turrin (May 12, 2015)

Tomorrow by 9:00 am Eastern Time is the deadline so anyone who wants to still participate post by then. I'll declare a winner ether tomorrow or the day after. In the meantime let me know if you guys enjoyed this and wish to see another thread like this.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Results: 

Rocky - Mifune
Strength of Argument: 13
Formatting: 5
Bonus Points: 8
Total: 18 [+8] = 26

Icegaze - Haishi
Strength of Argument: 8
Formatting: 3
Bonus Points: 7
Total: 11 [+7] = 18

Stragoob - Choji
Strength of Argument: 14
Formatting: 5
Bonus Points: 8
Total: 19 [+8] = 27

AlexPayne - Chiyo
Strength of Argument: 17
Formatting: 5
Bonus Points: 7
Total: 22 [+7] = 29

Daenerys Stormborn - Darui
Strength of Argument: 16
Formatting: 4
Bonus Points: 6
Total: 20 [+6] = 26

-----


*Winner: AP *


Write Up: 

For the most part everyone did decently with formatting their post, Icegazes post was a bit a lacking though, and Daenerys Stormborn didn't use any links, so she drops just a bit down compared to the others. Everyone had a decently compelling argument, Strategoob gets pushed a little higher than his initial Choji post would warrant simply because he was actually interacting back and forth with other people and defending his points. But overall I felt that Daenerys and AP's arguments were the most well crafted, covering all bases possible. Though ultimately I give AP a slight edge, because the way he crafted his post lends itself more to an explanation for why Chiyo is Mid-Kage or above the other Low-Kage, while I come away from Daenerys Stormborn's post saying yeah Darui is better than I thought and he's underestimated, but not necessarily the best Low-Kage or Mid-Kage [other posters have a somewhat similar "problem"]. So slight edge there goes to AP for following the assignment the closest, and than on top of that AP had more bonus points and a bit better formatting than Daenerys Stormborn.

So yeah Congratz AP. If anyone has any questions on their scores feel free to PM/VM me, and like I said before let me know if people are interested in doing this again or not.

Edit: The only thing i'm not sure about is if I should have docked DS for not having links, because I don't want to force people to have links, but at the same time I feel like I should reward people for putting in that effort. So perhaps DS should have a 1 point higher score, i'm not sure, but even still AP would win so it doesn't effect much, but if people have any thoughts I'd be glad to hear them.


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## Alex Payne (May 14, 2015)

That was a fun little competition. Too bad activity wasn't good. I will join the next Champion match if Chunin/Jonin ranks are used. Not sure about higher Kages. 

As for suggestions - maybe slightly clearer rules next time. I wasn't sure if I should focus on matchups or simply general description of skills. 

P.S. Strategos is a scrub


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## Sadgoob (May 14, 2015)

Turrin forgot to multiply my score by four. ;]


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## Turrin (May 14, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> That was a fun little competition. Too bad activity wasn't good. I will join the next Champion match if Chunin/Jonin ranks are used. Not sure about higher Kages.
> 
> As for suggestions - maybe slightly clearer rules next time. I wasn't sure if I should focus on matchups or simply general description of skills.
> 
> P.S. Strategos is a scrub


I thought I was pretty clear about the rules being match ups, but people did a more general thing and i'm fine with that. I'm more than open to doing another one, but I got to see more support for the idea.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

am surprised you can actually read my posts


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## Ryuzaki (May 25, 2015)

I'll be participating and I'll pick Kakashi (Part 1)

Guess I won't be participating because I don't know how to use the check last post function


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## Alex Payne (May 25, 2015)

Kakashi soloes.


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## Ryuzaki (May 25, 2015)

^ Well, if I was going to make a concise version of my argument, AP nailed it


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