# Hashirama vs BM Minato



## Cognitios (Jun 30, 2014)

Location: VotE
Distance: 1km
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: None


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## ARGUS (Jun 30, 2014)

been done several times
Hashirama wins this once SS comes out


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 30, 2014)

Hashirama takes this without issue


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 30, 2014)

Hashirama can take down Edo Minato (BM) in base; the knowledge indicates that he would be wary of his speed, after all. Hashi is aware of Hiraishin and boasts a fighting style that basically counters it. His Jukai Koutan is able to spread out any tags, while Kajukai Kourin gets spammed and puts even Kyuubi's avatar on the defensive. Bijuudama are caught via Mokujin and/or tanked with Mokuton: Houbi.

The only part that's difficult will be catching Minato, which is why it will give Base Hashirama moderate difficulty (lower end). Hashi's genjutsu might change that difficulty, however, as it forces the opponent to rely on other senses; that's a disadvantage by itself. 

Sooner or later, the spam will be too much for him. If all else fails, Hashirama pins down Minato via Senpou: Myoujinmon, but Shinsuusenju would be complete overkill that isn't necessary.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Minato wins.

through out the war Kishi put him against superior people to those who fought Hashirama for a reason. 
When Hashirama was dealing with edo Madara, Minato was dealing with JJ Obito.
When Hashirama lost to revived madara, Minato was against JJ Madara

worst case scenario, it's a tie with Reaper Death Seal. Hashirama is not surviving that, and ALL of his jutsu would
be irrelevant against that.

In addition, there is still his long-named jutsu that was hyped to be able to defeat JJ Obito, the guy whom Hashirama shitted himself upon seeing him. 

Kishi giving Minato the heavy work throughout the War while Hashirama was completely useless and did absolutely nothing. That shows who's the superior one...

In addition, most, if not all of Hashirama's attacks can be destroyed by a TBB


The only thing that won't get destroyed is his SS. However, it's useless against Juubi's TBB level S/T barrier.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> through out the war Kishi put him against superior people to those who fought Hashirama for a reason.
> When Hashirama was dealing with edo Madara, Minato was dealing with JJ Obito.
> When Hashirama lost to revived madara, Minato was against JJ Madara
> 
> Kishi giving Minato the heavy work throughout the War while Hashirama was completely useless and did absolutely nothing shows who's the superior one...



By that logic Kishi wants us to believe that Tobirama is also stronger than Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Tobirama's role was way inferior to Minato's, it's not even close.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Tobirama's role was way inferior to Minato's, it's not even close.



That isn't the point, your said that Minato is stronger than Hashirama because of the things he did in the war and because he fought stronger foes, Tobirama was way more useful and fought much stronger opponents than Hashirama did, why doesn't that make him stronger than Hashirama? I guess it only matters when it comes to Minato, right?


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

lol, except Minato while fighting those foes showed superior feats while at it. 

1- Teleporting the Juubi's TBB which is bigger and stronger than Hashirama's Buddha.
2- He showed a HUGE rassengan that effected Obito's Gedu-damas.
3- He showed TBB
4- a very long and powerful chakra arms. 
5- SM.
6- he, in base, has superior shunshin, and S/T jutsus
7- the ability to teleport several thousands more people than Tobirama..

Tobirama pretty much was only teleporting, and even that, was with Minato's help in a lot of cases.
like
1- When he teleported Sasuke, he used Minato's Kamui, which the latter allowed him to do so.
2- When he teleported the 2 fodders, that also was by using Minato's body and Kunai.
3- when they tried to trick Obito that also was with Minato's help.

His other feats are
1- weak water jutsu
2- his explosion tags, which needs an ET, or to kill himself.... 

both of which are inferior feats as well...


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 30, 2014)

I don't think Authoritah is comparing the degree of usefulness between Tobirama and Minato in the fight so much as just nitpicking at the fundamental flaws of your argument, wherein you seem to think that Minato is stronger than Hashirama purely on the basis that he played a more active role in the fight. What he's trying to say is that, by your logic, Tobirama should also be stronger by the merit of acting on a grander scale than Hashirama, since he was the MVP for a good few chapters before Minato started to shine again.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I don't think Authoritah is comparing the degree of usefulness between Tobirama and Minato in the fight so much as just nitpicking at the fundamental flaws of your argument, wherein you seem to think that Minato is stronger than Hashirama purely on the basis that he played a more active role in the fight. What he's trying to say is that, by your logic, Tobirama should also be stronger by the merit of acting on a grander scale than Hashirama, since he was the MVP for a good few chapters before Minato started to shine again.



I know what he meant, in the first post I couldn't go in much details (and even if I could, I wouldn't, probably) because I had to go to my class. 

However, as I mentioned in the previous post, Minato did not only fought the far superior foes to Hashirama (and Tobirama), but rather he also showed great feats against them. On the other hand, while indeed Tobirama was much better than Hashirama, he did not show superior fire power to Minato or Hashirama.

With that being said, I do consider Tobirama's explosion tags to be superior to Hashirama's Golem, and dragon, and I think it will destroy them completely. I do think Hashirama is only superior to his brother with SM and Buddha, since unlike Minato, Tobirama does not have the S/T barrier to deal with the Buddha.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2014)

Come on Elia, we've been through this many times. Minato's main role in the fight against Obito was to make way for the real stars Naruto and Sasuke (his words), and I've shown you the panel where he even labels his secret jutsu that you hype so much as merely a distraction/opening for them to finish him 

Amazing S/T support for sure. You just can't expect him to be more of a main player in this war than someone who can use senjutsu perfectly. There were two main Uchiha villains; Hashirama held off and immobilized one by himself.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

I'm not sure why you are now bringing techniques up. I know that (Edo) Minato and Hashirama are stronger than Tobirama and that has nothing to do with the post I quoted.

You're wrong about other things as well, if some one has greater firepower that doesn't mean that he's more powerful. Take Deidara and Minato for example. 

I'm also not sure why you're bringing Tobirama using Minato's kunai, when all Minato is doing 90% of the time is using Tobirama's techniques (Hiraishin, clones, finger sensing and possibly more). 

Tobirama's water element techniques aren't weak, even the first time he was resurrected the ANBU member said that they were high level and Tobirama wasn't even near full power. By Part II standards you could say that they are average, but you seem to forget that he wasn't even close to his full power. Even in the databook (that you like so much) it's stated that he's very skilled in water element techniques. We have only seen him use one water element jutsu (when he's *close* to his full power) and we don't know the limits of that jutsu. You think that the technique is weak because it isn't big and flashy but he didn't want to use a technique like that, all of the members of the alliance agreed that they would *cut* down the God Tree, Suiton・Suidanha (Water *Severing* Wave) is cutting technique so he decided to use it. That doesn't mean he doesn't have greater techniques.

As for Gojō Kibaku Fuda, I'll just quote myself: 





Authoritah said:


> It's only suicidal for the user. Tobirama won't be the one using the jutsu, his Edo Tensei will, that's why he created Edo Tensei for suicidal attacks, but since they are immortal and will regenerate it doesn't matter. As we have seen with Minato, it can be avoided with Hiraishin if you know how dangerous the technique is or Tobirama can simply stay out of the jutsu's range. He used this technique before, he even said that when he used it against Obito it was the first time he used it with his own body, Hiruzen has also apparently seen him use this technique so Tobirama didn't die using it because Hiruzen wasn't there when Tobirama died.


I've already told you this, I'm not sure why I bother doing the same thing again when you're just going to repeat the same nonsense again.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

[sp=Kai is also right, I forgot about that point, Minato said that he will defeat this Obito][/sp]

[sp=He said that he will just create an opening against the one Hashirama admitted inferiority to][/sp]


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> Come on Elia, we've been through this many times. Minato's main role in the fight against Obito was to make way for the real stars Naruto and Sasuke (his words), and I've shown you the panel where he even labels his secret jutsu that you hype so much as merely a distraction/opening for them to finish him
> 
> Amazing S/T support for sure. You just can't expect him to be more of a main player in this war than someone who can use senjutsu perfectly. There were two main Uchiha villains; Hashirama held off and immobilized one by himself.



- yes, that's was his main role, does that make the secondary roles irrelevant? No. 
- Yeah, and that was V2 Obito who's WAY superior to Hashirama. If that would create an opining 
against V2 Obito, I can only imagine what it will do to poor Hashirama.  

- Yes he did played a role far superior to Hashirama. Hashirama in fact in this war did nothing compare to him.  

- He lost. 
the Gokage held Madara for more time than Hashirama, yet no one (almost?) give them credits for that... At the end of the day, Hashirama lost and Madara took his SM and became even more powerful. 


> =Authoritah;51093495]I'm not sure why you are now bringing techniques up. I know that (Edo) Minato and Hashirama are stronger than Tobirama and that has nothing to do with the post I quoted.


Perhaps because I put the jutsus he has and what they can do since the start, and you just decided that you need to cut off that part and ignore it? 

here it is again in case you haven't notice.



> worst case scenario, it's a tie with Reaper Death Seal. Hashirama is not surviving that, and ALL of his jutsu would
> be irrelevant against that.
> 
> In addition, there is still his long-named jutsu that was hyped to be able to defeat JJ Obito, the guy whom Hashirama shitted himself upon seeing him.
> ...



This part was there for a reason, you know?  


> You're wrong about other things as well, if some one has greater firepower that doesn't mean that he's more powerful. Take Deidara and Minato for example.


I know, which is why I'm saying that Minato wins even though Hashirama has more firepower than him. 

I have never said that because someone has more power then he will win or something like that, as far as I remember at least.  



> I'm also not sure why you're bringing Tobirama using Minato's kunai, when all Minato is doing 90% of the time is using Tobirama's techniques (Hiraishin, clones, finger sensing and possibly more).


Because what Tobirama did was with Minato's help. Minato learning Tobirama's jutsus and make them more advanced does not mean Tobirama allowed him to go to that level or that Tobirama must be there for Minato to use those.

However, Minato must be there and must allow Tobirama to use his chakra and seal for Tobirama to be able to accomplish this. 


> Tobirama's water element techniques aren't weak, even the first time he was resurrected the ANBU member said that they were high level and Tobirama wasn't even near full power. By Part II standards you could say that they are average, but you seem to forget that he wasn't even close to his full power. Even in the databook (that you like so much) it's stated that he's very skilled in water element techniques. We have only seen him use one water element jutsu (when he's *close* to his full power) and we don't know the limits of that jutsu. You think that the technique is weak because it isn't big and flashy but he didn't want to use a technique like that, all of the members of the alliance agreed that they would *cut* down the God Tree, Suiton・Suidanha (Water *Severing* Wave) is cutting technique so he decided to use it. That doesn't mean he doesn't have greater techniques.


They are still weaker than the normal Rassengan though.  

as for the rest, I agree. 


> As for Gojō Kibaku Fuda, I'll just quote myself:
> I've already told you this, I'm not sure why I bother doing the same thing again when you're just going to repeat the same nonsense again.



what?  
I don't know why are you quoting yourself. 
I know what's the purpose  of his jutsu, and that's why I addressed it . 

and again, you just decided to close your eyes to what was written because you're so busy to find something to attack me with. What I stated is clearly 



> 2- his explosion tags, which needs an ET, *or* to kill himself....



which indicates that Tobirama either has to use one of his ET to use the explosion tags by them. OR
if he does does not have that, he can use it by himself, which in that case he will die. 

OR does not mean ONLY. I did not say his only option to use that jutsu is to kill himself. 
was it really that hard?


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 30, 2014)

Authoritah said:


> [sp=Kai is also right, I forgot about that point, Minato said that he will defeat this Obito][/sp]
> 
> [sp=He said that he will just create an opening against the one Hashirama admitted inferiority to][/sp]



Saying stuff and doing it are completely different


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## ARGUS (Jun 30, 2014)

I dont see how the time shown in panel and usefulness in DIFFERENT battles is the right way of judging the outcome of this fight,,,, 

Yes Minato was indeed useful in the war,, however he along with tobirama were mostly back-up to aid Naruto in landing the main blows due to him having SM,,, 
Hashirama on the other hand didnt even fight Juubito since he was busy fighting Madara,, who was the other main villain during that time in the manga,,,


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 30, 2014)

Are you seriously drawing a comparison between the Gokage's performance and Hashirama's performance against Madara? They held him off for a longer time (which is arguable, because we have no idea how much time actually elapsed) because he was just playing around for most of the fight and testing out his new powers. When he drew perfect Susano'o, they were all screwed.

Hashirama was fighting toe to toe with that perfect Susano'o.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Perhaps because I put the jutsus he has and what they can do since the start, and you just decided that you need to cut off that part and ignore it?
> 
> here it is again in case you haven't notice.
> 
> This part was there for a reason, you know?



I'm talking about the parts I quoted, because they don't make sense to me, at all.



> I know, which is why I'm saying that Minato wins even though Hashirama has more firepower than him.
> 
> I have never said that because someone has more power then he will win or something like that, as far as I remember at least.
> 
> ...


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Are you seriously drawing a comparison between the Gokage's performance and Hashirama's performance against Madara? They held him off for a longer time (which is arguable, because we have no idea how much time actually elapsed) because he was just playing around for most of the fight and testing out his new powers. When he drew perfect Susano'o, they were all screwed.
> 
> Hashirama was fighting toe to toe with that perfect Susano'o.



Ok? 
and how is that important? 

what is the final result? Yes, they both lost. 
so, it does not matter whether or not if Hashirama was holding him back.

In addition, all of that is made up and is not true to begin with. What actually happened in the manga
is the fact that MADARA was holding Hashirama back, not the other way around.

If you reread the chapters, Hashirama was willing to join the fight against Obito, but madara stopped him. Hashirama throughout the fight was trying to tell madara to stop fighting him and to get out go his way, but Madara refused because he needed his SM, which he did at the end of the fight, and pinned Hashirama down completely. 

some just chose to ignore that and make it as if Hashirama is the one who was stopping madara.


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## Kai (Jun 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> - yes, that's was his main role, does that make the secondary roles irrelevant? No.
> - Yeah, and that was V2 Obito who's WAY superior to Hashirama. If that would create an opining
> against V2 Obito, I can only imagine what it will do to poor Hashirama.
> 
> ...


It was fat Obito.


"It's now or never.." His jutsu wouldn't have even been valued as a distraction against Obito's complete form :ignoramus

And actually Hashirama immobilized Madara at the end with his Torii gates in their one on one. Madara escaped because someone was too slow to take care of Black Zetsu


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## ARGUS (Jun 30, 2014)

@Hussain - Hashirama stalemated edo madara,,, 
the same madara who pooped on the gokage,, and was comparing the gokage as utmost fodder in front of hashirama,,,, 
their entire fight was off-ppanelled as one could even say that hashirama won seeeing how he restrained and immobilised madara through his mokujin,,, 

it was only when madara was revived which allowed him to defeat hashirama after getting his SM
as comparing RT madara to Edo Madara is not valid


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

> =Authoritah;51093724]I'm talking about the parts I quoted, because they don't make sense to me, at all.



that part was an opining, then I added the other part about what Minato actually have and showed
to support that point, and it was not completely based on their show in the war. 



> You said: "while indeed Tobirama was much better than Hashirama, he did not show superior fire power to Minato or Hashirama" which implies that he's weaker because they have greater firepower.


again, as I stated earlier. In Minato's case, he is inferior in term of raw power, but he has a superior defence power (the S/T barrier) to counter Hashirama's offensive power. In Tobirama's case, he does not have the firepower needed, nor does he have the defence power to protect himself either... 



> And if Tobirama didn't invent Hiraishin Minato wouldn't be able to do any of this, see how that works?


you still don't get it. 
anyway, that's all pointless, just forget about it.... 



> It depends on the occasion, in some Tobirama's water techniques would be better and in some the Rasengan.


True, I soppose. 



> If you understand me then I'm not sure why you think he would die if he used the jutsu.



again, if you did not see the last edit


> 2- his explosion tags, which needs an ET, or to kill himself....


which indicates that Tobirama either has to use one of his ET to use the explosion tags by them. OR
if he does does not have that, he can use it by himself, which in that case he will die. 

OR does not mean ONLY. I did not say his only option to use that jutsu is to kill himself. 
was it really that hard?


On other words, Tobirama has 2 ways for him.
1- Use it via his ET, which means he won't be killed.
2- Use it by himself, and in THIS case he will die.

It really is that simple.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 30, 2014)

It's important in that the crux of the particular argument I was picking upon was that the Gokage held off Madara for longer than Hashirama did while receiving no credit for it, as if it was actually a commendable feat. 

What I'm debating is that if Madara had fought the Gokage in the same way he had fought Hashirama, they would have become smears across the landscape. Their conditions were in no way similar at all, and that's why nobody really says "wow, it sure is impressive that the Gokage stayed alive against Madara so long!" Because with hindsight, and having seen how powerful Madara really was, it wasn't impressive at all. 

The end result isn't what I'm discussing here; I acknowledge that they both ultimately lost. I'm just nitpicking at that particular thing you wrote because I find it to be quite a silly. It might be the most nonsensical instance of Hashirama downplaying I've seen from you, actually.


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

Kai said:


> It was fat Obito.
> 
> 
> "It's now or never.." His jutsu wouldn't have even been valued as a distraction against Obito's complete form :ignoramus
> ...



- No, he stated he would create an opining 3 times against V2 Obito. 

In addition to that, it's really not hard to figure out how things work. If the jutsu was given a name, and then kishi hide the jutsu for several chapters after that, he is simply building up a greater hype for it to make it more powerful. 

This jutsu was held back from Obito to perhaps Kaguya, which will require the jutsu to be extremely powerful. 

For example, Guy was going to use his 8th gate against the 5 Bijuus just to get rid of their TBBs. However, Kishi did not allow that to happen and waited around 100 chapters so the jutsu can be used against JJ Madara. Because of that we saw the extreme power of that jutsu. 

and there are many other examples,,,, perhaps that's why I take that jutsu in a high regard. 

- It does not matter, he still lost.  
and the revived madara was even without his eyes or regenerating ability. @>@


*******

lol, I get tired @>@


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## Trojan (Jun 30, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> @Hussain - Hashirama stalemated edo madara,,,
> the same madara who pooped on the gokage,, and was comparing the gokage as utmost fodder in front of hashirama,,,,
> their entire fight was off-ppanelled as one could even say that hashirama won seeeing how he restrained and immobilised madara through his mokujin,,,
> 
> ...




I don't consider being pinned down as stalemated. 

- Edo madara is stated to be beyond his living self by Kabuto. Also, Madara stopped Hashirama
before he gets his SM actually. 



Atlantic Storm said:


> It's important in that the crux of the particular argument I was picking upon was that the Gokage held off Madara for longer than Hashirama did while receiving no credit for it, as if it was actually a commendable feat.
> 
> What I'm debating is that if Madara had fought the Gokage in the same way he had fought Hashirama, they would have become smears across the landscape. Their conditions were in no way similar at all, and that's why nobody really says "wow, it sure is impressive that the Gokage stayed alive against Madara so long!" Because with hindsight, and having seen how powerful Madara really was, it wasn't impressive at all.
> 
> The end result isn't what I'm discussing here; I acknowledge that they both ultimately lost. I'm just nitpicking at that particular thing you wrote because I find it to be quite a silly. It might be the most nonsensical instance of Hashirama downplaying I've seen from you, actually.



The Gokage were a life, and they were not even at full power when they fought madara. In addition, every time they cut him in half or something, he regenerate. Hashirama in this case has the same advantage like Madara. For example, even when Obito blew the hell out them up, they get regenerated. The Gokage do not regenerate, and their chakra does not get recharged automatically either. 

and Madara needed his PS to defeat them as he stated himself. 

but either way, as I said, holding madara or whatever it was it does not matter much because again
both lost, it does not matter which one of them was more impressive. Though, it would have been nice to see how Hashirama was going to deal with 2 Meteors.


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## Dominus (Jun 30, 2014)

Hussain said:


> that part was an opining, then I added the other part about what Minato actually have and showed
> to support that point, and it was not completely based on their show in the war.



To me it seemed that you think that "Minato>Hashirama based on usefulness" is enough to prove that he's stronger.



> again, as I stated earlier. In Minato's case, he is inferior in term of raw power, but he has a superior defence power (the S/T barrier) to counter Hashirama's offensive power. In Tobirama's case, he does not have the firepower needed, nor does he have the defence power to protect himself either...



I was just talking about the part in which you were talking about firepower, I didn't see you mentioning anyone's defense in that post.



> again, if you did not see the last edit
> 
> which indicates that Tobirama either has to use one of his ET to use the explosion tags by them. OR
> if he does does not have that, he can use it by himself, which in that case he will die.
> ...



I'm pretty sure he can't use that jutsu without Edo Tensei. If you mean he summons someone with Edo Tensei and then gets the explosive tags out of them to use it on someone else, I think that he could still avoid the explosion with Hiraishin or simply do it with clones.


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## Dr. White (Jun 30, 2014)

S/T Barrier isn't going to stop Mokuton lol. It is good for attacks in which Minato knows are coming and can cast his barrier. Hashirama can create a forest around him and attack from different angles not too mention his Pollen technique.


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## krolk88 (Jun 30, 2014)

About hashi vs edo madara:

Hashirama had multiple black rods stick in his body so madara could pin him down with his superior alive chakra...If they were not edo,madara'd die faster than he'd hit hashi with one restraining rod...He probably took a lot of damage but regenerated while you cant exactly regen black rods stick in your body ^^.Hashirama won that fight but kakashi&minato failed with black zetsu.I dont see how people see this as a stalemate or hashi's defeat when he would soon pin down madara with his gates even without naruto's COFRS and madara'd lose if not for rinne tensei.

On topic:

Imo Hashirama(SM)>Minato(BM)>=Hashirama(base)

Minato isnt getting a kunai anywhere close to hashi with all that wood around.As the others have said everything hashi has to do is catch minato and he won.Mokuton is a counter for Kurama avatar and large aoe is a counter for hiraishin,Hashirama likely doesnt even have to go SM,without it he wins high-extreme diff,with SM and shisuunsenju its mid diff.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 30, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> been done several times
> Hashirama wins this



Pretty much this



Hussain said:


> Tobirama's role was way inferior to Minato's, it's not even close.



No matter how many times your going to post this delusional wank for Minato your not going to change the majority of the forum


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 30, 2014)

BM Minato = SM Shodai

And there is a reason Kishi didn't want Hashirama to fight against the superior JJ Obito. After all, he did admit inferiority to INC Juubito


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## Cognitios (Jun 30, 2014)

Inferiority doesn't necessarily mean he'd be stomped.
I think Hashi could give Juubito a fight, he'd lose low-mid diff, but not a stomp.
Hashi + BSM Naruto + EMS Sasuke/Juugo
Could actually beat Juubito extreme high diff.


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## Krippy (Jun 30, 2014)

Hashirama wins this in base. He's solidly superior.


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## Azula (Jul 1, 2014)

Minato wins, hashirama cannot redirect bijuudamas  and neither he nor his mokuton constructs are going to survive a bijuu dama explosion of this power

Its that simple


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## KyuubiFan (Jul 1, 2014)

Hashirama beats Blondaime rather easily. His dragons or gates can suppress BM, Golem stops Bijuudamas, Jukai Kotan can cover/destroy tags, Flower World knocks blodie out. Oh and he can easily make Moku Bunshins to cover all sides.


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## αce (Jul 1, 2014)

> through out the war Kishi put him against superior people to those who fought Hashirama for a reason.
> When Hashirama was dealing with edo Madara, Minato was dealing with JJ Obito.
> When Hashirama lost to revived madara, Minato was against JJ Madara



How is this even equatable. Minato had Tobirama and Naruto along side him. The way you phrased this makes it seem like he was on his own. By this exact logic, Tobirama must be superior to Hashirama because while Hashirama was dealing with Madara, Tobirama was dealing with JJ Obito, right?


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## αce (Jul 1, 2014)

Well someone already made my point, but it stands that the logic is flawed. Tobirama did just as much as Minato did that fight.


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2014)

I think we ought to just wait until the Hokages are inevitably returned to full power.


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## LeBoyka (Jul 1, 2014)

_*Hashirama wins.*_

He pretty much can counter everything Minato has. The dude went toe to toe with Madara's Perfect Susanoo and the 100% Kyuubi (100% Kyuubi can dish out more than BM Minato, who is only 50% of the Kyuubi). Hashi's jutsus pretty much control the entire battlefield, and his Sage Mode is boss as hell. Minato does not have a real chance here; this fight is gonna resemble the game "Whack a Mole" with Hashi being the hammer guy and Minato being the mole. (And I'm a pretty big Minato fan.)


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## Trojan (Jul 2, 2014)

Spoiler!



If BASE, ARMLESS Minato was able to cut those overrated wood, I wonder what is he going to do with them with both hands. :rofl :rofl :rofl


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## Cognitios (Jul 2, 2014)

> If BASE, ARMLESS Minato was able to cut those overrated wood, I wonder what is he going to do with them with both hands.


The Juubi's wood is vastly inferior to Hashi's woo.d
The juubi's wood was able to be cut by fodder samurai
Hashi's wood was tanking PS Slashes. 
Unless you believe that fodder Samurai are more powerful that PS?


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

> =Cognitios;51113303]The Juubi's wood is vastly inferior to Hashi's woo.d


What? 


> The juubi's wood was able to be cut by fodder samurai


so?


> Hashi's wood was tanking PS Slashes.


the Juubi's wood almost killed BSM Naruto.  



> Unless you believe that fodder Samurai are more powerful that PS?



1- Hashirama was using his wooden golem, and it stopped the sword, which is not the same as tanking it.

2- the Trees wood is way superior to Hashirama. 
not only they are MUCH bigger, but even their ability to absorb is way higher as well, and faster.

and again, base Minato without arms cut those superior jutsu, dealing with Hashirama's far inferior jutsu won't be a problem especially with both of his hands and jutsus...

look at the size of those things
_didn't he_


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> the Juubi's wood almost killed BSM Naruto.


By chakra absorption and quantity, Edo Madara's wood, which is inferior to Hashi's wood btw almost killed KCM Naruto too, remember? BSM Naruto could easily be killed by Hashi's wood, it's major purpose is to subdue bijuu and Jins.


> 1- Hashirama was using his wooden golem, and it stopped the sword, which is not the same as tanking it.


Tobirama's own admission
It wasn't fully formed, if it was the wood golem.


> 2- the Trees wood is way superior to Hashirama.
> not only they are MUCH bigger, but even their ability to absorb is way higher as well, and faster.


Cool story, but we're not talking about size or speed, we're talking about durability.


> and again, base Minato without arms cut those superior jutsu, dealing with Hashirama's far inferior jutsu won't be a problem especially with both of his hands and jutsus...


Enlighten me as to how SS, which mowed down PS + 100% Kyuubi, is being fodderized by Minato, with a 50% Katsuya.


> look at the size of those things
> Tobirama's own admission


Size isn't everything, if it was Fukasaku wouldn't throw Gamakichi around like a rag doll. 

I'm not saying Hashirama could beat the god tree, I'm saying that his moukton constructs are more durable than the God Tree branches.
However if you honestly think that fodder with kunai's and samurai swords are able to cut through Hashi's wood constructs like butter you really should just leave the battledome and not come back until you get some serious help. 
Don't compare the Juubi's wood to Hashi's wood when we can use Hashi's wood comparing to Hashi's wood. Using the juubi's wood, which although bigger, is much less durable than Hashirama's wood. 
If your going to argue durability then argue durability, size =/= durability, speed =/= durability, chakra absorption =/= durability.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

> 1- No where was it ever stated that Madara's wood is inferior. @>@


It doesn't need to be stated for you to use an inkling of thought. Madara didn't use SS or Wood golem, he said even in his current form only Hashirama could match beat him.


> 2- mmm, no, I actually am not sure about what even you're talking about.
> when was KCM Naruto almost killed?


When Madara grabbed him with moukton dragon. 


> 3- No, BSM Naruto > Hashirama, but that's irrelevant now. The point is what the wood did to
> powerful ninja. U_U


Your wank is truly impressive. However it is sadly wrong. Check out the other posts.


> In both cases, the sword is obviously being stopped, which is not the same at tanking.
> it's just like how Naruto stopped Karui (or Omoi's?) sword.


It is still holding it and at least tanking the shockwave, which is a mountain crusher.


> your story is cooler.
> The Tree is obviously superior, there is no amount of Hashirama's fanboysim will prove otherwise.


I said that, but you didn't read my post did you? You took out pieces that you thought you could turn into either downplay of Hashirama or wank for Minato like you always do, showing a complete lack of reading comprehension.


> and by the way, since apparently you have a problem, with tanking and stopping something. If Hashirama's wood is that durable, why did the arms got cut in that same link you posted?


I'm not arguing on PS' cutting power, i'm arguing hashi's wood durability. 


> 1- I do not know what the hell does katsuyu have to do here!!!! Did I mentioned her?


Kurama my bad, however you would know that if you used some reading comprehension, so instead I am required to spell it out for you.


> 2- As for the SS, you know my opinion in that matter, S/T barrier > Juubi's TBB>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> SS


I know you think that S/T barrier is a larger kamui so your inability to grasp the mechanics of the technique shouldn't be takin for a grain of salt.


> That's amusing, since Hashirama's fans always take the size as argument that he fodderstomps the entire Ninja world by himself.


You have no room to talk as the biggest Minato fan on the forum. Your downplay of Hashirama is so severe you have actually been banned for it and mods have pointed it out to you.


> and with that being said, those are the same type of jutsus, so, if Minato cut those woods, without his arms, he will have no problem cutting down weaker and smaller wood, it's that simple.


Except that Hashirama's wood isn't less durable than the God Trees. Hashi's wood isn't getting cut by samurai sword fodder.They are not durable. 


> We have seen Hashi's wood gets cut several time. Even the Buddha's arms were getting destroyed lift and right, are you going to tell me the Buddha is less durable that the golem?


Your right, creating a valley in the earth is a pretty tough job, something that even Minato cannot do.


> Actually you're the one who need serious help to think Hashirama's wood is superior to the Tree's, the original of that fucking thing.


> I need serious help
> Says Base Minato can solo SM Hashirama


> and you're the only one I saw that think Hashi's is superior to that Tree's.
> that the most ridiculous thing I read for this day. O_O


I have never claimed that, I have claimed Hashirama's wood's durability is greater than the tree's durability.
As for ridiculous, you think that
> Minato is faster than 8th Gate Gai
> Base Minato can beat EMS Madara
> Base Minato can beat SM Hashirama
> Current Sakura can beat Itachi
I sometimes get on this site for a daily laugh as your posts I cannot tell if they are trolling or not.

As for your next series of posts
PS Slashes are in no way comparable to Fodder Samurai cuts, the fact you avoid it so makes me wonder if you have a concurrent argument for it.
Yes Hiruzen cut an Edo Hashirama's wood, which is in no way shape or form comparable.
Naruto with Kurama's chakra managed to stalemate a watered down version.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2014)

Edit:
I mistake some of the point from this thread with the Tobirama's thread.  



> =Cognitios;51124983]It doesn't need to be stated for you to use an inkling of thought. Madara didn't use SS or Wood golem, he said even in his current form only Hashirama could match beat him.


Not using a jutsu does not mean the other jutsus are not the same. 


> When Madara grabbed him with moukton dragon.


He was not almost dead, and destroyed the Dragon with his speed. 


> Your wank is truly impressive. However it is sadly wrong. Check out the other posts.



really Ironic of you, but check out BZ's statement. 


> It is still holding it and at least tanking the shockwave, which is a mountain crusher.



it was cut when it was attacked as I pointed out to you... 


> I said that, but you didn't read my post did you? You took out pieces that you thought you could turn into either downplay of Hashirama or wank for Minato like you always do, showing a complete lack of reading comprehension.


stop with being a drama quean, you kept saying how Hashirama's wood is more durable.
I don't even remember myself comparing Minato to the Tree, or saying Minato will fodderstomp all the kages at the same tine. So, please, save us this drama when you are one who should about your wank. 


> I'm not arguing on PS' cutting power, i'm arguing hashi's wood durability.


I know, and since those hands got cut the moment Madara's attacked them, it means your point is in vain. 


> Kurama my bad, however you would know that if you used some reading comprehension, so instead I am required to spell it out for you.


stop putting your own fault on me. 



> I know you think that S/T barrier is a larger kamui so your inability to grasp the mechanics of the technique shouldn't be takin for a grain of sal


t.

No, I know the manga >>>>>> you. And I know Minato teleported the TBB while being stopped by the 8tails. 


> You have no room to talk as the biggest Minato fan on the forum. Your downplay of Hashirama is so severe you have actually been banned for it and mods have pointed it out to you.


the ban was not about that, so don't about thing you don't even know. 
In addition, again, I did not say Minato will solo everyone, all the Kages, Naruto and Sasuke
will give current Naruto high difficult battle, as what Hashi's fans do. But again, that's their own believe I suppose.. 


> Except that Hashirama's wood isn't less durable than the God Trees. Hashi's wood isn't getting cut by samurai sword fodder.They are not durable.



There is nothing indecates that the samuri fodder's sword is not going to cut a piece of Hashirama's wood (like the birth of the forest...etc), the wood has not shown any durability, like it or not... 

you keep telling me I downplay Hashirama, when you are the one who danwplays Minato's feats
like his speed feat with Guy, and this current feat/hype.  



> Your right, creating a valley in the earth is a pretty tough job, something that even Minato cannot do.



way to ignore the point and go to irrelevant thing,


> > I need serious help
> > Says Base Minato can solo SM Hashirama



> I need serious help
> Says Hashi's wood > the Tree. 


> I have never claimed that, I have claimed Hashirama's wood's durability is greater than the tree's durability.
> As for ridiculous, you think that
> > Minato is faster than 8th Gate Gai


_didn't he_


> > Base Minato can beat EMS Madara


way to go with lying.  


> > Base Minato can beat SM Hashirama


I did not even mentioned a fight between them. 
the whole time I was comparing Tobirama's feat of cutting the wood, with Minato's. 

stop lying.  


> > Current Sakura can beat Itachi


and? 
itachi is the sannin level, like it or not. 


> I sometimes get on this site for a daily laugh as your posts I cannot tell if they are trolling or not.


good for you... 



> As for your next series of posts
> PS Slashes are in no way comparable to Fodder Samurai cuts, the fact you avoid it so makes me wonder if you have a concurrent argument for it.


dear god. 
did I even said something like that? 
you were trying helplessly to prove how Hashirams's wood is better than the orginal. 
and used Madara to prove your point, and I was showing you that madara cut the woods.


> Yes Hiruzen cut an Edo Hashirama's wood, which is in no way shape or form comparable.
> Naruto with Kurama's chakra managed to stalemate a watered down version.



yeah, just like how Hashirama is no way, shape or form comparable to the Tree. 

- yeah, because Enma will get absorbed like Naruto's chakra. 

anyway, I'm done. 
I can't debate with you when all your proof "X person said so, so we must ignore the manga"


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

Your not reading my statement correctly so I'm going to stop here.
Just to clarify, one more time.
I have never said that god tree > Hashi wood
I have said Hashi's wood's durability > god tree's wood durability
If you want to continue in Tobriama vs Minato Likes Bosses is also saying you are wrong, i'm sure he can tell you how wrong you are if you don't take it from me.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jul 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> really Ironic of you, but check out BZ's statement.



I already disproved you on this point when I showed you the original Japanese text and hashirama did meet hagoromo, so your point is moot regardless.
It's sad that you resorted to using a less accurate translation to prove your point.


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## Cognitios (Jul 3, 2014)

If Hussain really cared about bz arguments he'd stop nitpicking on them.
If BZ is an accurate source then itachi is invisible an cannot lose.
He's picking and choosing his arguments and manipulating the facts so his fave character wins a matchup.


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## Bkprince33 (Jul 3, 2014)

in base hashi guarded against 100 percent kurama infused with ps i dont see how hes struggling here.


Minato's only shot at victory is maybe a ftg bijudama suprise combo but hashi has knowledge on ftg because tobirama uses it so i doubt that will happen

sage mode should make this mid difficulty but maybe im not giving minato enough credit


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## ARGUS (Jul 3, 2014)

Hussain said:


> The Gokage were a life, and they were not even at full power when they fought madara. In addition, every time they cut him in half or something, he regenerate. Hashirama in this case has the same advantage like Madara. For example, even when Obito blew the hell out them up, they get regenerated. The Gokage do not regenerate, and their chakra does not get recharged automatically either.
> 
> *and Madara needed his PS to defeat them as he stated himself. *
> 
> ...



the whole gokage vs madara fight was a joke seeing how the intention for the batle was to stall the gokage long enough till BZ manages to get the rinnegan,,, on top of  the fact that madara was toying with them throughout the battle,, 

acutally obito was infusing onmyoudon with his offense meannig that the edos wont be able to regennerate,,, however we also dont know how hashi/madara survived the blast

@Bold - madara never stated that he needed PS to beat them,,he jus sttated that he would oppose the gokage with his own full power, 

hashirama could destroy the meteors through chojo kobetsu,,, 
it doesnt even matter since both of them would regenerrate from the meteors due to their edo form,


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## KnightGhost (Jul 7, 2014)

Why are they letting Minato fans turn the thread into a joke thread?

Hashi holy stomps Minato to hell in. BASE


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## LeBoyka (Jul 7, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> Why are they letting Minato fans turn the thread into a joke thread?
> 
> Hashi holy stomps Minato to hell in. BASE



I'm a Minato fan and even I know Hashirama pretty much stomps here. It appears like there's only one person here who thinks Minato can actually win, short of some magically plot induced miracle.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Im a Hashirama fan and even I know Minato is pretty much equal to Hashirama.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

I think they are talking about Base Minato.
I agree though, I think that BM Minato and Hashirama are pretty close, I just think Hashirama has an advantage do to Moukton suppression, the question is, how far does that advantage go?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I think they are talking about Base Minato.
> I agree though, I think that BM Minato and Hashirama are pretty close, I just think Hashirama has an advantage do to Moukton suppression, the question is, how far does that advantage go?



Oh, well of course if they are talking about Base Minato, Hashirama is stronger. That should be expected from a ninja that lived far longer than Minato. However, give Minato five more years and I believe its a different story.


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## ARGUS (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I think they are talking about Base Minato.
> I agree though, I think that BM Minato and Hashirama are pretty close, I just think Hashirama has an advantage do to Moukton suppression, the question is, how far does that advantage go?



Mokuton suppression along with SS giive Hashirama the win


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Oh, well of course if they are talking about Base Minato, Hashirama is stronger. That should be expected from a ninja that lived far longer than Minato. However, give Minato five more years and I believe its a different story.


5 more years and a bijuu yeah. 
He'd need to vastly improve his DC, improve rasengan varients like crazy, and actually be able to use sage mode semi-competently, just to hang around Base Hashirama, even then he loses.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> 5 more years and a bijuu yeah.
> He'd need to vastly improve his DC, improve rasengan varients like crazy, and actually be able to use sage mode semi-competently, just to hang around Base Hashirama, even then he loses.



I was just thinking 5 more years to improve SM and Hirashin would be enough. This would put him on the same level as SM Hashirama level. Now if Minato lived to be the same age as Hashirama, then he would be stronger than him.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> I was just thinking 5 more years to improve SM and Hirashin would be enough. This would put him on the same level as SM Hashirama level. Now if Minato lived to be the same age as Hashirama, then he would be stronger than him.


Even perfect sage mode and perfect Hirashin wouldn't put him at Hashirama level. I doubt it'd put him at EMS Madara level. Prime Nagato level at best


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Even perfect sage mode and perfect Hirashin wouldn't put him at Hashirama level. I doubt it'd put him at EMS Madara level. Prime Nagato level at best



Isnt EMS Madara level nearly equal to Hashirama? 

Moreover, I doubt it would take Minato more than a few years to perfect SM.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Isnt EMS Madara level nearly equal to Hashirama?


Only with Kurama
ck 
and that's a bit above Base Hashirama. SM Hashi is leagues above EMS Madara and oneshotted him with Kurama.


> Moreover, I doubt it would take Minato more than a few years to perfect SM.


Issue is the chakra capacity, he perfected as best as his physical limit allowed.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Only with Kurama
> ck
> and that's a bit above Base Hashirama. SM Hashi is leagues above EMS Madara and oneshotted him with Kurama.
> 
> Issue is the chakra capacity, he perfected as best as his physical limit allowed.



I think its a bit too much to say SM Hashi is leagues above EMS Madara 


And IIRC, I thought Minato said it takes to long to build up chakra? I don't think thats a "capacity" issue.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> I think its a bit too much to say SM Hashi is leagues above EMS Madara


SM Hashi vs EMS Madara? Gets oneshotted, maybe not leagues, but at the very least 2 tiers, maybe 3.

It's because of his low chakra, it's a miracle he was able to get where he is with SM. Perfect SM is the best you can get, you can decrease the time it takes you to get in, but the time won't change unless your chakra capactiy has space to grow, like Naruto.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 7, 2014)

Minato was somehow chopping down God tree branches with no arms.
...
I'mma let that sink in for a minute.


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## Kai (Jul 7, 2014)

Jak N Blak said:


> Minato was somehow chopping down God tree branches with no arms.
> ...
> I'mma let that sink in for a minute.


The tree's branches, unlike when under a shinobi's control, was not in combat against Minato.

Let that sink in for a minute.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> SM Hashi vs EMS Madara? Gets oneshotted, maybe not leagues, but at the very least 2 tiers, maybe 3.
> 
> It's because of his low chakra, it's a miracle he was able to get where he is with SM. Perfect SM is the best you can get, you can decrease the time it takes you to get in, but the time won't change unless your chakra capactiy has space to grow, like Naruto.



Then why didnt Edo SM Hashi "oneshot" or easily subdue Edo EMS Madara? The gap between SM Hashi and EMS Madara is probably the same as the gap between Whitebeard and Akainu. _Minimal_

Regarding your second point, I just have to disagree considering there is no evidence that Minato has a bad stamina.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I think they are talking about Base Minato.
> I agree though, I*think that BM Minato and Hashirama are pretty close,* I just think Hashirama has an advantage do to Moukton suppression, the question is, how far does that advantage go?



Based on what? What attack could Minato possible have that could even phase sm hashi? Did you for get Hashi is on par with tunsuade as a medic even if Minato could wound him he would just heal.

Minato in bm would still be stomped


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Minato was somehow chopping down God tree branches with no arms.
> ...
> I'mma let that sink in for a minute.


God tree branches also qualify as the things about an arms length that were holding the body bags of white zetsu.
Also bigger one's were cut by fodder samurai.



> Then why didnt Edo SM Hashi "oneshot" or easily subdue Edo EMS Madara? The gap between SM Hashi and EMS Madara is probably the same as the gap between Whitebeard and Akainu. Minimal


He one-shotted PS infused Kyuubi which is way more powerful than  EMS Madara. He didn't use SS against Edo Madara and Edo Madara had HashiDNA + Rinnegan + Edo Chakra Regen



> Regarding your second point, I just have to disagree considering there is no evidence that Minato has a bad stamina.


I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's not Naruto / Hashi / UzumakiOroDNAfuckclust Kabuto. It's better than Jiraiya's imo, which is saying a lot considering j-man's a chakra beast.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> Based on what? What attack could Minato possible have that could even phase sm hashi? Did you for get Hashi is on par with tunsuade as a medic even if Minato could wound him he would just heal.


I was talking about base Minato, they are pretty equal in power levels, Hashi just has an advantage.



> Minato in bm would still be stomped


By Base hashi? Nope, it would be a mid-high diff match. Low diff at minimum, but not a stomp.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 7, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> *He one-shotted PS infused Kyuubi which is way more powerful than  EMS Madara.* He didn't use SS against Edo Madara and Edo Madara had HashiDNA + Rinnegan + Edo Chakra Regen



PS is part of EMS Madara's skill set...

And lets be honest here, the Rinnegan didn't actually provide him with anything useful besides meteors. Moreover, they both have Edo Chakra Regen.




> I'm not saying it's bad, I'm just saying it's not Naruto / Hashi / UzumakiOroDNAfuckclust Kabuto. It's better than Jiraiya's imo, which is saying a lot considering j-man's a chakra beast.



If he has the chakra capacity necessary, all he needs is to fine tune his skills. Jiraiya never reached perfect SM because he didn't practice enough IIRC.


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## Cognitios (Jul 7, 2014)

> PS is part of EMS Madara's skill set...
> 
> And lets be honest here, the Rinnegan didn't actually provide him with anything useful besides meteors. Moreover, they both have Edo Chakra Regen.


Was talking about Kyuubi part. Rinnegan could have, we didn't see their battle.


> If he has the chakra capacity necessary, all he needs is to fine tune his skills. Jiraiya never reached perfect SM because he didn't practice enough IIRC.


I'd need scans for that, guys 50 years old with nothing to do but write and check out naked chicks, I'm sure he had some free time.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 8, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> I'd need scans for that, guys 50 years old with nothing to do but write and check out naked chicks, I'm sure he had some free time.



Assuming that Jiraiya has the same motivation and skill that Minato has.


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## convict (Jul 8, 2014)

KnightGhost said:


> Hashi holy stomps Minato to hell in. BASE



Agreed. Minato stands no chance.


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## Lord Aizen (Jul 8, 2014)

Hashirama wins this once he goes sage mode it's over minato will never no where the real hashirama is since hashirama has got wood clones, several wood dragons destroy kyuubi avatar, sage art: Wood Release: Advent of a World of Flowering Trees puts minato to sleep and it's over


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 8, 2014)

Restrict buddha or Minato turns into a stain on the ground.


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## Lord Aizen (Jul 8, 2014)

Elite Uchiha said:


> I think its a bit too much to say SM Hashi is leagues above EMS Madara
> 
> 
> And IIRC, I thought Minato said it takes to long to build up chakra? I don't think thats a "capacity" issue.



Not at all sage hashirama is way above EMS madara it's not even close. Madara needed the kurama on his side to fight hashirama in base


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