# Is Hebi Sasuke overrated?



## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

Just want your thoughts about Hebi Sasuke in the BD.

Personally I have him as a mid kage. Although I know some have him high on the mid kage tier I have him in the middle. Maybeven even a little bit lower the mid range mid kage.

Sasuke is personally one of my favorite characters so I do have some bias. And as most people already know, Hebi is one of my least favorite of his incarnations but when I rank him it is purely objective 

I personally believe anything above that ranking is overrated

Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None
Distance: 100 Meters

*Opponents*

Mei

Kisame

Sasori

War Arc Gaara

Jiraiya


Out of these who can and who can't he beat.

*The main question is: Is Hebi Sasuke overrated in the BD?*


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 31, 2016)

Yes. He only beat Orochimaru because he was bedridden and his Sharingan is an illogical counter to the Living Corpse Reincarnation. He only beat Deidara because his Raiton is a perfect counter to Deidara's entire fighting style and Deidara was mentally unstable. He only "beat" Itachi because Itachi planned out the whole fight, wanted him to win, and was deathly ill. He is indeed a high-ranking character overall but he is weaker than any of the Kage in the series at that point imho so he'd only be a high Jonin level.


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## Finalbeta (Mar 31, 2016)

Well what do you mean?

He is legit stronger than Orochimaru who failed to kill Itachi


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

Isaiah. Great post but no way in hellike is he high jonin level. Everything going else I agree with.

Beta, he's only beat Oro because he was bed ridden as Isaiah said. Not a good comparison imo


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## Arles Celes (Mar 31, 2016)

Probably somewhat close to Oro's level but below Itachi's and Jiraiya's. Likely below the likes of Ei too.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 31, 2016)

Finalbeta said:


> Well what do you mean?
> 
> He is legit stronger than Orochimaru who failed to kill Itachi



He isn't, he only won because Orochimaru was bedirdden. He openly admitted it himself after his fight with Orochimaru. Orochimaru also didn't want to kill Itachi, he wanted to possess his body too and was unable to due so because of the Sharingan. 



Matty said:


> Isaiah. Great post but no way in hellike is he high jonin level. Everything going else I agree with.
> 
> Beta, he's only beat Oro because he was bed ridden as Isaiah said. Not a good comparison imo



Well, compared to the Gokage at the time he would be but if you count all Kage in general then he'd be low Kage level because he may be close to or on par with old Hiruzen imo.


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## $Kakashi$ (Mar 31, 2016)

He's the weakest of the Kage level ninja, IMO. 

To be in the Kage tier, you have to be stronger than him.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

See I see him being akatsuki worthy. He's like Kakuzu level to me. So really like mid kage. If I ranked them:

Nagato
MS Obito
Itachi
Orochimaru (healthy with pt 1 et)
Sasori/Kisame
Hebi
Deidara
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 31, 2016)

He's around Wind arc Naruto, but yea hes overrated as hell. He didnt beat anyone without some kind of asspull or PIS/CIS on his side.


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke in general is rated fairly imo. Sasuke has good stats, has some good ninjutsu, has some good Genjutsu and Genjutsu defense, good at Taijutsu and Kenjutsu, has some good summonings, and has the Curse seal which boost his stats even further so he's pretty good imo. 

As for who he beats I can see him beating Kisame and Gaara more times then not. I see Jiraiya beating him more times then not and Mei being a 50/50 shot depending on how the battle plays out. As for Sasori that depends on if he is immune to his poison or not.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 31, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Hebi Sasuke in general is rated fairly imo. Sasuke has good stats, has some good ninjutsu, has some good Genjutsu and Genjutsu defense, good at Taijutsu and Kenjutsu, has some good summonings, and has the Curse seal which boost his stats even further so he's pretty good imo.
> 
> As for who he beats I can see him beating Kisame and Gaara more times then not. I see Jiraiya beating him more times then not and Mei being a 50/50 shot depending on how the battle plays out. As for Sasori that depends on if he is immune to his poison or not.



Kisame nearly defeated V2 Bee. Hebi Sasuke isnt doing shit to him once water dome comes out.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2016)

If you look at the story objectively when Sasuke got stronger than his Hebi version by activating Mangekyo, he still was still having a tough time w/ someone like Ei, and Ei's performance in the war makes it obvious that he is not among the top high-tiers; he was outperformed by by Tsunade & Onoki in the Gokage battle, outperformed by B in the flashback, outperformed by Minato, and his father was essentially a better version of him, who in turn was in turn upstaged by Mu and Gengetsu, who were both treated as the biggest threats among the Edo-Kages. Not to mention Pain-Arc Naruto was considered > than him, who in turn was still well inferior to Pain.

Ultimately from this we can pretty safely say that a superior version of Sasuke to Hebi-Sasuke was still well beneath the top high tiers, and even above average high-tiers, at best he was around average high-tier, which to me places Hebi-Sasuke as a bellow average high-tier along the same lines as Rasa, Deidara, Kakuzu, and Mei, which incidentally he could have beaten Deidara w/o Raiton affinity, but it would have been w/ very high difficulty, while he got punked out completely by an actual above average/top high tier like Itachi, despite Itachi being handicapped by illness at the time.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

See I think he's rated fairly if he is under the sannin and is considered mid kage. I know people here who will rate him as borderline high kage. But I don't even think Sasuke achieves that until EMS. More likely he crossed the threshold with MS but he was clearly high kage when he acquired EMS


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Kisame nearly defeated V2 Bee.



Cool.



> Hebi Sasuke isnt doing shit to him once water dome comes out.



Hebi Sasuke has Manda and other snakes to help him get out and that's assuming Kisame even lives long enough to use it when he has no knowledge on Sasuke.


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## ImSerious (Mar 31, 2016)

Yes he's an overrated little rat.



Bonly said:


> I can see him beating Kisame


Example #1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 31, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Hebi Sasuke in general is rated fairly imo. Sasuke has good stats, has some good ninjutsu, has some good Genjutsu and Genjutsu defense, good at Taijutsu and Kenjutsu, has some good summonings, and has the Curse seal which boost his stats even further so he's pretty good imo.
> 
> As for who he beats I can see him beating Kisame and Gaara more times then not. I see Jiraiya beating him more times then not and Mei being a 50/50 shot depending on how the battle plays out. As for Sasori that depends on if he is immune to his poison or not.



I don't see how he can beat any of them except for Sasori.


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## $Kakashi$ (Mar 31, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Kisame nearly defeated V2 Bee. Hebi Sasuke isnt doing shit to him once water dome comes out.



Honestly that depends on how his Lighting style effects Kisame in the water. It could electrocute him or it could just be absorbed. 

Still, thats a huge long shot and 9/10 times he'll lose before water dome even comes out.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

Well in Naruto's universe lightning affinity works against earth, correct? Electrocution did work against Kakuzu so I am not exactly sure.


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## Saru (Mar 31, 2016)

I don't think he's terribly overrated, no. He's well above Immortals Arc Naruto (who defeated Kakuzu), and his score in the Databook is evidence of that. He has almost all of Orochimaru's power, Sharingan Genjutsu and precognition, top-tier speed, a slew of deadly Raiton techniques, and a nigh-unavoidable S-Rank hill-busting ninjutsu that doesn't require chakra to use.

The only people I see him losing to are most of the "strong" Kage, or people of that caliber, like::

Jiraiya / Kakashi / Gai
Orochimaru / Tsunade
Gengetsu / Muu
Hiruzen (Old)
Danzo (w/o Kotoamatsukami)
A (Sandaime Raikage) 
Ohnoki
A (Yondaime Raikage)

I think he can beat most of Akatsuki one-on-one, but I see him losing to Konan and Sasori.Then of course characters like Obito, Itachi, and Minato are way out of his league. I think some people tend to go overboard when they argue that Sasuke can defeat the likes of Jiraiya. I don't buy the "Jiraiya can't enter Sage Mode" argument against anyone around (let alone below) Jiraiya's general level, and you're going to see any argument about Jiraiya losing to Hebi Sasuke revolve around that condition. 

I don't think Hebi Sasuke can beat full-power Orochimaru either; that was suggested multiple times in the manga [1] [2].

Tsunade doesn't fair _as_ well as the other Sannin in one-on-one scenarios, but it's still very hard for me to see Hebi Sasuke defeating her. I've argued in the past that Sasuke had a good chance against her with Kirin, but I don't think Sasuke would be able to prepare that jutsu against Tsunade when she can bulldoze through Sasuke's Gouryuuka the same way she did Madara's. All of the Sannin are probably out of Sasuke's league at that point in the series.​


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

no shit he's overrated


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't see how he can beat any of them except for Sasori.



Manda alone would be a pain in the ass for the people on this list to deal and would give Sasuke an edge in the fight if he brought him out. Genjutsu is also another pain for everyone as that can stop them long enough for Sasuke to get a free hit in or it can allow him to set up his next line of attack. Then there's Kirin which if he used it, it's pretty much a GG against anyone on the list. I could go on but honestly I don't feel like explain why I think Sasuke has a good shot to beat everyone on this list bar Jiraiya, I got like an hour and a half or so before I go to work and me doing that would take the majority of that time. So maybe when I get off work tonight I'll do it in better detail but as for now I'm good.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2016)

He is one of the most underrated characters in BD.

He destroys Gaara, Mei and Jiraiya.
Mid difs Sasori. Not sure about Kisame because he seems to be a bad match up but in a no knowledge scenario he might just genjutsu GG him.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2016)

Obviously he is EXTREMELY overrated, with his other counterpart irrelevant fodder shit kimimaro. 

I don't know what shit do people smoke when it comes to those 2 characters. lol



cctr9 said:


>



You should have laughed at all the name listed to be honest. Sasuke is not even beating them with his MS, except for MAYBE Mei. 

like I don't get what people do not understand about what is going on with him. Kishi gave him a superior power up (MS) and he still was getting his ass kicked, but
for some bizarre reason they think when he was even weaker will somehow preform better. lol


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 31, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Manda alone would be a pain in the ass for the people on this list to deal and would give Sasuke an edge in the fight if he brought him out. Genjutsu is also another pain for everyone as that can stop them long enough for Sasuke to get a free hit in or it can allow him to set up his next line of attack. Then there's Kirin which if he used it, it's pretty much a GG against anyone on the list. I could go on but honestly I don't feel like explain why I think Sasuke has a good shot to beat everyone on this list bar Jiraiya, I got like an hour and a half or so before I go to work and me doing that would take the majority of that time. So maybe when I get off work tonight I'll do it in better detail but as for now I'm good.



Kisame easily deals with Manda with his powerful AOE Suiton, Gaara easily deals with Manda with his tsunamis of liquefying sand, Jiraiya deals with Manda by summoning the Gamatrio, Mei deals with Manda with her Futton, and Sasori is the only one who dies. Kisame's AOE counters Sasuke's LOS, Gaara's sand counters Sasuke's LOS, Jiraiya has the assistance of the toads to counter Sasuke's LOS, Mei's Futton counters Sasuke's LOS, and Sasory is the only one who can't counter it.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He is one of the most underrated characters in BD.
> 
> He destroys Gaara, Mei and Jiraiya.
> Mid difs Sasori. Not sure about Kisame because he seems to be a bad match up but in a no knowledge scenario he might just genjutsu GG him.



Not at all. Gaara's sand is extremely strong and fast, it'd block any and all of Sasuke's attacks and quickly overwhelm in the form of a tsunami that would crush him to death. Good luck touching Mei when all she needs to do is use one hand seal that can flood the area. Destroys Jiraiya? Now we're getting kind of crazy here. Sasori is the definite weakest out of the bunch, he had high difficulty with a BoS Sakura and Lady Chiyo. Sasuke is not skilled enough with his Sharingan: Genjutsu to just "Genjutsu GG" people. He's like, never ever done that against any top-tier opponent and never will. Kisame will flat-out take control of the landscape with his Suiton's AOE and rapidly mow down Sasuke and his defenses. Sasuke can electrocute it but then he'd have a wall of electrified water ramming into himself. All of them destroy Hebi Sasuke aside from Sasori of course.


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2016)

Kishi

> Jiraiya is as least as good as a MS user (itachi) or stronger than him
> Jiraiya fights the Rinnegan user and almost defeated him

NB's logic

> he loses to a sharingan user. 



> Sasuke is not skilled enough with his Sharingan: Genjutsu to just "Genjutsu GG" people. He's like, never ever done that against any top-tier opponent and never will. Kisame will flat-out take control of the landscape with his Suiton's AOE and rapidly mow down Sasuke and his defenses. Sasuke can electrocute it but then he'd have a wall of electrified water ramming into himself. All of them destroy Hebi Sasuke aside from Sasori of course.



Sasuke barely defeated Deidara (with kind of an asspull) the same guy who admitted that he is weaker than Sasori.


Long story short, Sasori is the one who is going to destroy Hebi Sasuke.


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kisame easily deals with Manda with his powerful AOE Suiton,



What AoE Suiton does Kisame have that will actually harm Manda and which of those have the speed to suggest it's likely to hit Manda enough times to put him down?



> Gaara easily deals with Manda with his tsunamis of liquefying sand,



Gaara throws waves of Sand and Manda dodges.



> Jiraiya deals with Manda by summoning the Gamatrio,



Jiraiya has never summoned more then one boss summon at a time. 



> Mei deals with Manda with her Futton,



Manda goes underground, the Futton does jack shit though that's assuming she gets enough time to get quite a bit of Futton up before Manda runs her over.



> Kisame's AOE counters Sasuke's LOS,



Kisame has no knowledge, why would he willingly start throwing out large AoE to block LoS? This is the guy who likes CQC and went into it against Asuma, Gai, and Killer B yet you want me to believe it's likely that he's gonna try to block LoS? Yeah ok.



> Gaara's sand counters Sasuke's LOS,



That depends on how he uses the sand, which with no knowledge I don't see him actively doing.



> Jiraiya has the assistance of the toads to counter Sasuke's LOS,



K.



> Mei's Futton counters Sasuke's LOS,



Futton doesn't block LoS, Kirigakure does.



> and Sasory is the only one who can't counter it.



Wait so you say that Gaara can block LoS because he got lolsand but you say Sasori can't block LoS even though he has lolironsand?


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

So to Hussain and CCTR9 who say he's overrated and to Grimm who believes he's underrated where would you place him? Low, high, mid kage? Is he even kage level (it would be an outstanding reach in my eyes to make this claim)


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## Empathy (Mar 31, 2016)

Out of the list, the only one I think Hebi Sasuke will lose to for sure is Jiraiya, and maybe Sasori.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 31, 2016)

Bonly said:


> What AoE Suiton does Kisame have that will actually harm Manda and which of those have the speed to suggest it's likely to hit Manda enough times to put him down?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. Senshokuko 

2. Manda isn't dodging a tsunami of sand. 

3. Rewatch/read Jiraiya's fight against Pain then. 

4. If that doesn't work, then it's back to Suiton. 

5. Cause this time he's fighting Sasuke Uchiha, the younger brother of Itachi Uchiha, and a wielder of the Sharingan. The instant he activates his Sharingan he'd know not to look into his eyes. 

6. Same reason for Kisame. 

7. Then she uses Kirigakure. 

8. Sasori doesn't have nearly the amount of sand that Gaara has at his disposal nor has he shown that he is capable of doing the same things with it.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

Id say, objectively, that Sasuke beats Mei and Gaara more times than not with not too much difficulty and has about 50/50 with Kisame but i lean towards Sasuke and a shot at Sasori. Although it would be high dif if he did get it done. Like Bonly said it's up to his poison resistance and I don't see Orochimaru granting him resistance from a poison that was so complex Sasori (5 in intelligence) needed charts to come up with the formula. 

Jiraiya should win every time,  but Sasuke still has an outside chance of coming up with something.


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## Bonly (Mar 31, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> 1. Senshokuko
> 
> 2. Manda isn't dodging a tsunami of sand.



Prove Senshokuko is fast enough to hit Manda and prove Manda can't avoid a tsunami wave.



> 3. Rewatch/read Jiraiya's fight against Pain then.
> 
> 4. If that doesn't work, then it's back to Suiton.



Jiraiya never had three boss summons out at once against Pain, you need to go back and reread it

Cool she goes back to Suitons. But at this point Manda is already underground and can pop up from underneath to take her out or throw her off balance to allow a follow up.



> 5. Cause this time he's fighting Sasuke Uchiha, the younger brother of Itachi Uchiha, and a wielder of the Sharingan. The instant he activates his Sharingan he'd know not to look into his eyes.



Cool he knows not to look into his eyes, that doesn't mean he's gonna go out of his way and start throwing around large AoE jutsu let alone means he's gonna be successful in avoiding it



> 6. Same reason for Kisame.
> 
> 7. Then she uses Kirigakure.



Just like how he was constantly blocking LoS when he fought Madara right, oh wait he didn't, hell in fact he thought it was better to look into an Uchiha eyes and say "hey guys look at his eyes". Oh wait lets not forget that he looked right into MS Sasuke's eyes as well, man Gaara has a habit of looking Uchiha in the eyes lol 

Cool.



> 8. Sasori doesn't have nearly the amount of sand that Gaara has at his disposal nor has he shown that he is capable of doing the same things with it.



If lolsand is your only reason then why does Sasori need to make alot of it, the amount he made in canon is enough to block LoS and for the most part anything Gaara can do with his sand, Sasori can do with Satetsu more or less


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## Trojan (Mar 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> So to Hussain and CCTR9 who say he's overrated and to Grimm who believes he's underrated where would you place him? Low, high, mid kage? Is he even kage level (it would be an outstanding reach in my eyes to make this claim)



Obviously he is not a kage level. lol
The only fights Hebi Sasuke got

1- Oro.

I am not sure why people still don't get what happened even though Kishi spoonfed them. After Deidara's battle, in response to Karin, Sasuke stated that the only reason he defeated Oro was because he was weakened and without his Jutsu.

For some reason, if they did not get that the first time, after 200+ chapters, Kishi repeated the same shit after Kabuto's battle, and Suigetsu stated that the only reason Sasuke won is because Oro was weakened and couldn't use any jutsu because of the SF seal. Which Sasuke basically agreed by saying not to underestimate Oro.

And even if somehow they couldn't comprehend that, even by portrayal, Kishi still compared KCM Narudo, early EMS Sasuke, and YS Sakura to the Sannin. That was the point when they surpassed the Sannin. It makes no sense that 3T Sasuke surpassed Oro, and then Kishi compare him to EMS Sasuke, that's pretty idiotic. 

2- Deidara.

Which he did decently, even tho I still count his survival from C0 to be an asspull. Regardless, that does not make him as strong as people delude themselves into believing. This same Deidara was trashed by Sai, are we suppose to believe that Sai is also a Kage-level?

If we will follow the NF's logic on who is a Kage-level, almost all the characters would end up being Kages. lol

3- Itachi

Sasuke pushed him too far indeed, but still we know that itachi did not want to kill.

So barely any of his feats as Hebi Sasuke even worth mentioning. Kishi needed to give him the MS
and the Susanoo support to be able to fight with the Kages, and without it, he would have been defeated instantly.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2016)

I say yes but only 2 posters overrate him. Sadgoob and grimmjaw

then you got some hater posters who might as well claim konohamaru is above him

all in all ill say more than 50% of posters rate him fairly

i.e well above immortal arc kakashi but not close to SM jiraiya level


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> So to Hussain and CCTR9 who say he's overrated and to Grimm who believes he's underrated where would you place him? Low, high, mid kage? Is he even kage level (it would be an outstanding reach in my eyes to make this claim)



He is a solid Mid Kage, Sannin tier. His portrayal also confirms this.
People want to dismiss  the fact that he is easily Sannin tier simple because they don't want to acknowledge that Itachi would stomp the likes of them. 
In other words agenda.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Not at all. Gaara's sand is extremely strong and fast, it'd block any and all of Sasuke's attacks and quickly overwhelm in the form of a tsunami that would crush him to death. Good luck touching Mei when all she needs to do is use one hand seal that can flood the area. Destroys Jiraiya? Now we're getting kind of crazy here. Sasori is the definite weakest out of the bunch, he had high difficulty with a BoS Sakura and Lady Chiyo. Sasuke is not skilled enough with his Sharingan: Genjutsu to just "Genjutsu GG" people. He's like, never ever done that against any top-tier opponent and never will. Kisame will flat-out take control of the landscape with his Suiton's AOE and rapidly mow down Sasuke and his defenses. Sasuke can electrocute it but then he'd have a wall of electrified water ramming into himself. All of them destroy Hebi Sasuke aside from Sasori of course.



"Gaara's sand defense is strong and fast."
This is not an argument boy, just letting you know.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

He's on the high end of Mid Kage, as suggested by taking Orochimaru's power and believing himself capable of defeating Itachi, someone established to be a very solid tier above Orochimaru (High Kage.)



> Mei
> Sasori
> War Arc Gaara
> Jiraiya
> Kisame



He defeats all of them (maybe 50/50 on Kisame) and if you compare his list of abilities and feats side by side with theirs, it's undeniable that Hebi Sasuke is far more versatile ninjutsu, more ninjutsu firepower, stronger, faster, more reflexive, better genjutsu, better genjutsu defense, more durable, more perceptive, better tactically, better kuchiyose, etc. 

And I'm not even counting that he can "tag" a fresh Orochimaru in when he's tired, and Orochimaru's arguably superior to everybody on that list too, maybe with the exception of Kisame or Sage Jiraiya. (Although I don't believe Jiraiya would reach Sage Mode against Orochimaru, who's not Animal Path.) If you count the ability to tag in Orochimaru, then he's on the low end of High Kage.

*Mei*

Manda alone is a huge problem. Genjutsu alone is a problem, as it defeated Orochimaru in his own dimension. Sasuke's speed and reflexes alone is a problem (would've blitzed Deidara.) CS only enhances those problems as it's senjutsu that strengthens physical abilities and jutsu.

*Sasori*

Manda is going to require the Kazekage. The biggest issue is that Sasuke can see his heart with chakra vision, and can use superior speed and reach (Chidori Eiso) to pierce the container, killing Sasori. It was also alluded that Hebi Sasuke is resistant to poisons, plus he's _way_ faster than Chiyo.

*Gaara*

I don't think Gaara can beat Manda. Or keep up with CS Sasuke's speed. Or prevent Chidori Eiso from piercing through his sand. Hell, CS2 Sasuke can break through any sand shield pretty easily given what he did to Orochimaru's White Snake body (literally made it explode by flexing.)

*Jiraiya*

Snake summons trump Frog summons. CS Sasuke has a massive speed and physical advantage over base Jiraiya. Sasuke has much better perception. Jiraiya has no real genjutsu defense. He only can keep up if enters Sage Mode, but that takes a long time, and Sasuke would have Kirin set up by then.

*Kisame*

Manda is a moderate problem still. Sasuke's dispersion of raiton with Chidori Nagashi is a possible problem in the water sphere. CS2 Sasuke is physically comparable to Kisame in strength, and superior in speed and reflexes. Kisame has limited genjutsu defense (Samehada provides some.) Kirin finishes.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He defeats all of them (maybe 50/50 on Kisame) and if you compare his list of abilities and feats side by side with theirs, it's undeniable that Hebi Sasuke is far more versatile, perceptive, smarter, better support, and has more firepower.
> 
> *Mei*
> 
> ...



 , people still deluded , and actually think that sasuke defeated orochimaru
he defeated him cuz he was freaking handicap , armless , weakened , sick, and unable to use any jutsu
sasuke confirmed it
suigetsu confirmed it
and after that , sasuke confirmed it again


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2016)

He means the ritual. Although I don't think it was a product of Sasuke's genjutsu prowess but rather will of hatred(aka plot bullshit).


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

> people still deluded , and actually think that sasuke defeated orochimaru



It's undeniable that Sasuke defeated Orochimaru _in his own controlled dimension_, where none of Orochimaru's handicaps existed.

He also defeated Deidara, who is superior to part one and early part two Orochimaru in power (c4, forest-destroying clones) and versatility.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It's undeniable that Sasuke defeated Orochimaru _in his own controlled dimension_, where none of Orochimaru's handicaps existed.
> 
> He also defeated Deidara, who is superior to part one and early part two Orochimaru in power (c4, forest-destroying clones) and versatility.



the guy was on medicines and shit 
i guess obito's weaknesess go doesn't exist when he is in kamui dimention as well
even sasuke said that the only reason he defeated orochimaru was because he was weakened so your argument is pointless no matter what


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> the guy was on medicines and shit
> even sasuke said that the only reason he defeated orochimaru was because he was weakened so your argument is pointless



Dude, you're not getting it. Sasuke beat him in a mental dimension where physical handicaps from the real world aren't a factor.

It's like if Sasuke beat Itachi in genjutsu, a genjutsu designed to steal bodies, and reversed it onto Orochimaru.

That would've happened regardless of Orochimaru's health, because Sasuke's will was much stronger than Orochimaru's will.


----------



## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Dude, you're not getting it. Sasuke beat him in a mental dimension where physical handicaps from the real world aren't a factor.
> 
> It's like if Sasuke beat Itachi in genjutsu, a genjutsu designed to steal bodies, and reversed it onto Orochimaru.
> 
> That would've happened regardless of Orochimaru's health, because Sasuke's will was much stronger than Orochimaru's will.



what you don't get is that if oro was full power , sasuke wouldn't even have the chance to do anything
again , sasuke and suigetsu both confirmed that oro's weakened state was the only reason he lost , stop making things up , and read the manga


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2016)

Turrin aint wrong though

Raikage was less critical to the gokage team in the fight against madara than tsunade was. and a lot less than onoki was

tbh he looked like 3rd best

so that's quite average. MS sasuke struggling with at best a mid kage level. shows hebi sasuke with no MS tech should be at the very very best low kage level

considering MS sasuke with all his MS techs>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>hebi sasuke


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## Santoryu (Mar 31, 2016)

Part 1 Kakashi level perhaps 
*Spoiler*: __


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## Itachі (Mar 31, 2016)

What Icegaze said, some people underrate him while some overrate him. I think it's pretty even, there's a lot of underestimation but a lot of overestimation at the same time.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

I think it's more than fair to say he is lower end of Mid kage. People that are saying Sannin level are ridiculous.

Any one of the Sannin solos him at their full health


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## Itachі (Mar 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> I think it's more than fair to say he is lower end of Mid kage. People that are saying Sannin level are ridiculous.
> 
> Any one of the Sannin solos him at their full health



In my opinion he defeats Tsunade with low-medium difficulty, has a decent chance at beating Jiraiya due to match-up but loses to Orochimaru. He can defeat some of them but he's not at their general level, except I believe that he's more powerful than Tsunade overall when it comes to 1v1 scenarios.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> I think it's more than fair to say he is lower end of Mid kage. People that are saying Sannin level are ridiculous.



Uh, he'd _destroy_ Tsunade with CS speed, Sharingan reflexes, and a raiton blade. And he tags in a fresh Orochimaru when he gets tired, so I don't really see how you can say he's not Sannin level. 

Also, ways he's superior to Orochimaru are:


much stronger (CS)
much faster movement (CS)
much more reflexive
much more durable (e.g. against explosions)
much more skilled with weapons
much better weapons (raiton blade, raiton giant shuriken)
Sasuke  to reach Deidara here.

much more shown ninjutsu variety
much more destructive ninjutsu
much better genjutsu
much better genjutsu defense
more perceptive (chakra vision)
more tactical and strategic in battle (hugely important)
more skilled use of kuchiyose
more skilled use of oral rebirth

In what ways is Orochimaru even better as an individual at that time of the manga? Orochimaru doesn't have more stamina. He has a 3.5 too, but no CS. All he really had better (prior to Hashi's DNA) was access to a weak-ass zombies.


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## Saru (Mar 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> In my opinion he defeats Tsunade with low-medium difficulty.




With what?

Chidori Eiso? Katsuyu can put Tsunade back to together in moments.

Swordplay? If Tsunade punches the ground, engaging her in CQC is impossible for Sasuke.

Tsunade's stamina levels are also far, _far_ above Sasuke's.​


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> In my opinion he defeats Tsunade with low-medium difficulty, *has a* *decent chance at beating Jiraiya* due to match-up but loses to Orochimaru. He can defeat some of them but he's not at their general level, except I believe that he's more powerful than Tsunade overall when it comes to 1v1 scenarios.



< pain said that if jiraiya had full knowledge on him , he would've defeated him , pain that is 
< jiraiya loses to hebi sasuke 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Itachі (Mar 31, 2016)

Saru said:


> With what?
> 
> Chidori Eiso? Katsuyu can put Tsunade back to together in moments.
> 
> ...



Chidori Eiso, yes. Katsuyu can put Tsunade back together but not before Sasuke rushes in and interrupts. Even if she does put Tsunade back together, there's no guarantee that Tsunade will be able to fight instantly.

As for CQC, Tsunade's the one who needs to engage Sasuke in that realm.


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## Saru (Mar 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Chidori Eiso, yes. Katsuyu can put Tsunade back together but not before Sasuke rushes in and interrupts. Even if she does put Tsunade back together, there's no guarantee that Tsunade will be able to fight instantly.




Yeah, I'm not buying that Sasuke can somehow rush in past the gigantic slug guarding Tsunade's body and attacking Sasuke, then chop Tsunade to bits with Chidori Eiso--all while Katsuyu sits there completely helpless. Also, what do you mean there's no guarantee that Tsunade would be able to fight instantly? Why wouldn't she be able to? She got up just fine and healed the Gokage after Katsuyu put her back together.




> As for CQC, Tsunade's the one who needs to engage Sasuke in that realm.




And why would that be a problem? As mentioned, Tsuande has superior stamina.​


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## Itachі (Mar 31, 2016)

What are you talking about? If Sasuke uses Eiso on Tsunade then he's going to be 5 metres away from Tsunade at max, unless he uses it in CS form in which case I believe that it can extend longer. If he's at that point then he should be able to interrupt the process. If you give Manda to Sasuke then it's not going to be hard either. Oh yeah, forgot that Tsunade was able to get up like that. 

I also don't think that Tsunade can simply punch the ground whenever Sasuke comes close, she's certainly going to be troubled by Sasuke's speed up close. When Sasuke's up in her grill with Eiso she can't just punch the ground and expect Sasuke to be completely repelled. Sasuke can also jump and manouver himself in mid-air, Tsunade punching the ground once might push him back but it's definitely not a game ender when Sasuke can fight in mid-air.


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## Saru (Mar 31, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If Sasuke uses Eiso on Tsunade then he's going to be 5 metres away from Tsunade at max, unless he uses it in CS form in which case I believe that it can extend longer. *If he's at that point then he should be able to interrupt the process.*




How does he do that if Katsuyu is attacking him? Because in order for me to go agree with what you're saying, I'm going to have to picture Sasuke dodging Katsuyu's acid while holding his hand out for Chidori Eiso and slicing Tsunade up at the same time. It looks pretty ridiculous in my head. Additionally, if Katsuyu is sliced into pieces, she can survive that kind of injury just fine, so Sasuke would struggle to take her down while avoiding acid attacks.




> I also don't think that Tsunade can simply punch the ground whenever Sasuke comes close, she's certainly going to be troubled by Sasuke's speed up close. When Sasuke's up in her grill with Eiso she can't just punch the ground and expect Sasuke to be completely repelled. Sasuke can also jump and manouver himself in mid-air, Tsunade punching the ground once might push him back but it's definitely not a game ender when Sasuke can fight in mid-air.




If Tsunade was at a significant disadvantage in terms of CQC speed, don't you think that she would resort to different tactics (.e.g ground pounds, attacking with Katsuyu, etc.) than trying to punch Sasuke directly? Or do you think she would keep trying to engage an opponent who's faster than her with her fists?​


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## Bookworm (Mar 31, 2016)

Sasuke can use Manda to deal with Katsuya, then deal with Tsunade.


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## Itachі (Mar 31, 2016)

Does Katsuyu's acid have any feats to suggest that it could catch Sasuke? Manda was able to dodge Katsuyu's acid and proceed to blitz her, only for Katsuyu to be saved by Gamabunta. Though that may be a testament to Manda's speed rather than Katsuyu's lack of speed.



Sasuke also has Genjutsu which he can use on Tsunade & Katsuyu, if he's awarded full knowledge then he can catch Katsuyu before she splits. He can also use snakes to guard himself against Katsuyu's acid. And again, if you give Manda to Sasuke then Sasuke has better chances too.

As I said before, I don't think that ground pounds can keep Sasuke away forever. Sasuke's not completely incapable of fighting in mid-air and he's not incapable of pressuring Tsunade. Sasuke still has Kirin at his disposal and if he wanted to he could probably just run away from Tsunade until it's ready. She can't pressure him from long range at all and up close she's going to get cut up, really I can't see her winning this. Even if she does catch Sasuke by surprise somehow, he still has Chidori Nagashi to protect himself.


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

If Hebi Sasuke is Sannin level then so is everyone on this list of opponents


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## Complete_Ownage (Mar 31, 2016)

Let's see:

Orochimaru: Has only been hinted several times and aknowledged by Sasuke himself that he only defeated orochimaru because of his weakened state

Itachi: Played hebi sasuke like a fiddle.  Obito confirms Itachi was not series. Could have cock slashed Sasuke with Susanoo at any moment for the lolz. neg difficulty

Then we have people who think he can defeat Gaara let alone Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

> Orochimaru: Has only been hinted several times and aknowledged by Sasuke himself that he only defeated orochimaru because of his weakened state



Sasuke was correcting Karen's perception of _what happened in the battle_. But Sasuke's _actual opinion of Orochimaru relative to him_ was stated clearly. He believed Orochimaru was his inferior.



> Itachi: Played hebi sasuke like a fiddle.



At least Sasuke didn't lose immediately to genjutsu. And a lot of people believe Sasuke would beat Itachi without Susano'o based on his performance, which is more than we're led to believe is the case for Orochimaru. 



			
				Saru said:
			
		

> If Tsunade was at a significant disadvantage in terms of CQC speed, don't you think that she would resort to different tactics (.e.g ground pounds, attacking with Katsuyu, etc.) than trying to punch Sasuke directly?



You should probably reread Tsunade vs Kabuto. She's not exactly tactically brilliant (unlike Hebi Sasuke.) She literally chased after Kabuto trying to hit him until she tired herself out. Sasuke would cut her into pieces quickly.



			
				matty said:
			
		

> If Hebi Sasuke is Sannin level then so is everyone on this list of opponents



Jiraiya, Kisame, Gaara (pre-retcon,) and Sasori are Sannin level. Gaara pre-retcon and Kisame are above Sannin level in terms of sheer power, although they're less tricky which is an element that the others have and evens them out.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2016)

Matty said:


> I think it's more than fair to say he is lower end of Mid kage. People that are saying Sannin level are ridiculous.
> 
> Any one of the Sannin solos him at their full health



Thats manga contradictory though.

Sasuke expressed that He and Orochimaru had no shot @ defeating Itachi but then immediately went after him after he absorbed Orochimaru.
Author clearly intended for reader to think that Hebi Sasuke was a legit threat to Itachi, while Orochimaru was not.

Hebi Sasuke has better feats than Orochimaru as well, so I am not sure whats so unclear about this.


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## Yoko (Mar 31, 2016)

Not sure how Hebi Sasuke isn't a Sannin level fighter when he literally spits out a Sannin if he gets exhausted.  He can do almost everything Orochimaru can do (snake arms, snake giant summons), plus has CS2 and his base Raiton and Katon arsenal as well.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Not sure how Hebi Sasuke isn't a Sannin level fighter when he literally spits out a Sannin if he gets exhausted.  He can do almost everything Orochimaru can do (snake arms, snake giant summons), plus has CS2 and his base Raiton and Katon arsenal as well.



And powerful genjutsu and vastly superior speed (a huge thing in the BD.) Better weapons too.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 31, 2016)

The only reason is because people don't want to acknowledge the fact that Itachi could defeat one sannin level opponent and an actual sannin back to back in his death bed while holding back.

That doesn't bode well for the Jiraiya front.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Not sure how Hebi Sasuke isn't a Sannin level fighter when he literally *spits out a Sannin if he gets exhausted*.  He can do almost everything Orochimaru can do (snake arms, snake giant summons), plus has CS2 and his base Raiton and Katon arsenal as well.



edo tensei puts orochimaru far far far far far far above hebi sasuke tho 

naruto spits out a kyuubi when he's angry = naruto is a bijuu confirmed 
what a bizzare logic


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## Sadgoob (Mar 31, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only reason is because people don't want to acknowledge the fact that Itachi could defeat one sannin level opponent and an actual sannin back to back in his death bed while holding back.



To be fair he wasn't holding back against Orochimaru, although he was severely, severely handicapped.



> edo tensei puts orochimaru far far far far far far above hebi sasuke tho



Not until he got Hashirama's DNA. Before that, Old Hiruzen was fodderizing a Hashirama zombie. Unmastered Edo Tensei wasn't that threatening.

But yeah, once he did get Hashirama's DNA and could bring back all the Hokage at like 95% strength, then he was god tier in the power he could bring to a field, so of course he was way stronger than Hebi Sasuke.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The only reason is because people don't want to acknowledge the fact that Itachi could defeat one sannin level opponent and an actual sannin back to back in his death bed while holding back.
> 
> That doesn't bode well for the Jiraiya front.



first your lord itachi and his friend kisame deny this 


second , itachi defeating a sannin before doesn't mean he otomaticly beats jiraiya 
by your logic , tobirama defeated a mangekyou weilder before , that means he can defeat any mangekyou weilder 
or kisame defeated a jinchuuriki before , so that means he can defeat any jinchuuriki


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## Yoko (Mar 31, 2016)

Edo Tensei is not something Orochimaru has had consistent access to throughout the series.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Edo Tensei is not something Orochimaru has had consistent access to throughout the series.



indeed , which makes sasuke's statement that he only defeated oro because he was so handicap and weakened even more laughable 
hebi sasuke is not even on the level of edo tensei-less oro let alone oro with edo tensei 
suigetsu also confirmes sasuke statement about oro being handicap and jutsu-less 

MS sasuke was getting his ass kicked by kages one by one , but NBD user believe hebi sasuke is a kage level


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## Yoko (Mar 31, 2016)

MS Sasuke forced a draw with the Raikage with an unmastered set of Mangekyo jutsu and then proceeded to get simultaneously attacked by the rest of them + supporting Jonin.  When you can draw with a Kage and survive against several others for an extensive period of time, you're easily Kage level.  And we're talking about inexperienced MS Sasuke that still struggled with Amaterasu and could barely use rib-cage Susano'o.

Again, Hebi Sasuke literally spits out Orochimaru when he gets tired.  Hebi Sasuke, for all intents and purposes, is P2 Sasuke with snake jutsu + Orochimaru.


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## Android (Mar 31, 2016)

Yoko said:


> MS Sasuke forced a draw with the Raikage with an unmastered set of Mangekyo jutsu and then proceeded to get simultaneously attacked by the rest of them + supporting Jonin.  *When you can draw with a Kage and survive against several others for an extensive period **of time, you're easily Kage level*.  And we're talking about inexperienced MS Sasuke that still struggled with Amaterasu and could barely use rib-cage Susano'o.
> 
> *Again, Hebi Sasuke literally spits out Orochimaru when he gets tired*.  Hebi Sasuke, for all intents and purposes, is P2 Sasuke with snake jutsu + Orochimaru.



that's great feat for mangekyo sasuke then , too bad we're discussing hebi sasuke here aren't we ? 
and lol if it wasn't for sasuke's susanoo he wouldn't have passed the raikage's liger bomb
how does that proves hebi sasuke is a kage level again ? 

again , naruto spits out a kyuubi when he's angry = naruto is a bijuu confirmed


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## Matty (Mar 31, 2016)

We don't judge wind arc naruto high kage because he has the Bijuu in him. So the fact that Sasuke has Orochimaru should be moot. There are still a lot of things that make Orochimaru stronger than Hebi Sasuke including Edo Tensei and the rest of his arsenal. It's already a fact Orochimaru was gimp ed when they fought.

Jiraiya's SM is also far above anything Hebi Sasuke can bring and the same goes for Tsunade (although she is the least likely to beat him)

He can give them a fight but he gets smashed when they pull out the big guns


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## Drake (Mar 31, 2016)

> Mei



Don't know too much about Mei, probably because there wasn't that much shown of her, but I'm going to say Sasuke can win. He can probably prepare Kirin against her if she has no knowledge, and she is susceptible to genjutsu. 



> Kisame



With no knowledge? Maybe. Kisame may try to use the Water Dome, and if he does, he's going to get wrecked by a Chidori. Even so, Kisame's massively powerful jutsus might end up overwhelming Sasuke. This could go either way. 



> Sasori



I can't remember if Hebi Sasuke has poison resistance. If he does he wins, but if he doesn't, he loses.



> War Arc Gaara



Sasuke is fast enough to get through Gaara's sand defense, especially with the Curse Mark's increased mobility. Sasuke can also prepare Kirin against him and distract him with genjutsu.



> Jiraiya



This depends on how fast Jiraiya can go into Sage Mode. Sasuke can win against Base Jiraiya and even SM Jiraiya with Kirin, but there's not guarantee that Sasuke will have it prepared before Jiraiya goes into Sage Mode. This could also go either way.

Overall, I don't think Hebi Sasuke is overrated. He is a powerful character with access to the Sharingan, the Chidori, the Curse Mark, and the one-hit kill against almost everybody which is Kirin.


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## shade0180 (Apr 1, 2016)

Sauce is overly over rated Hebi or not..


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## Saru (Apr 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Does Katsuyu's acid have any feats to suggest that it could catch Sasuke? Manda was able to dodge Katsuyu's acid and proceed to blitz her, only for Katsuyu to be saved by Gamabunta. Though that may be a testament to Manda's speed rather than Katsuyu's lack of speed.




The point is not to catch Sasuke with her acid; it's to tie up Sasuke so that Katsuyu can glue Tsunade back together. I have no doubt that Sasuke can avoid Katsuyu's acid or get away from Katsuyu. What I do doubt is Sasuke's ability to slice Tsunade up into pieces before Katsuyu can attack him from five different angles with her acid. Such a feat would require acrobatics never before seen in the manga.

Sasuke can't kill Tsunade with anything but Kirin, and in a full-knowledge scenario, Tsunade can spike Sasuke's Gouryuuka back down to the ground like beach balls. In a no-knowledge scenario, Tsunade and Katsuyu will likely be clever enough to realize that Sasuke is trying to prepare some sort of lightning-based jutsu (especially given the fact that Sasuke is Raiton-user and will be using Raiton throughout the battle) after one or two uses of Gouryuuka.

Additionally, if Sasuke uses Kirin after only using Gouryuuka, it won't be on the same scale as it was against Itachi due to the lack of Amaterasu, and it's highly questionable whether or not that weakened version of Kirin would even _destroy_ Katsuyu. She's survived Shinra Tensei, Chibaku Tensei, and contact with corrosive Bijuu Transformation skin without so much as a _scratch_. I'm not sure why you're under the impression that Katsuyu was "saved" by Gamabunta either; being constricted holds no bearing on her ability to split, and that's evident from the panels you posted because Manda was still constricting her when she split.




> Sasuke also has Genjutsu which he can use on Tsunade & Katsuyu, if he's awarded full knowledge then he can catch Katsuyu before she splits. He can also use snakes to guard himself against Katsuyu's acid. And again, if you give Manda to Sasuke then Sasuke has better chances too.




I don't buy Sasuke using Sharingan Genjutsu on Katsuyu before she splits, because full knowledge is a two-way street, and if Sasuke has knowledge on Katsuyu's ability to split, Katsuyu has knowledge on Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu (which is an obvious threat with or without full knowledge). Fodder snakes aren't likely to be of much help against Katsuyu's acid-spitting clones, and Tsunade can One-Punch Manda if she's within range to do so. Consequently, Manda's ability to preoccupy Katsuyu depends on when he's summoned and Tsunade's ability to close in on Manda.



> As I said before, I don't think that ground pounds can keep Sasuke away forever. Sasuke's not completely incapable of fighting in mid-air and he's not incapable of pressuring Tsunade. Sasuke still has Kirin at his disposal and if he wanted to he could probably just run away from Tsunade until it's ready. She can't pressure him from long range at all and up close she's going to get cut up, really I can't see her winning this. Even if she does catch Sasuke by surprise somehow, he still has Chidori Nagashi to protect himself.




So from what you're telling me, I'm getting a picture of Sasuke running away from Tsunade while simultaneously spitting fireballs into the sky and using Chidori Nagashi if Tsunade gets close, all while Tsunade struggles to get close enough to Sasuke to strike the _ground_ he stands on with enough force to trap or disorient him within a large radius. Sasuke has never shown the capability to do so many things at once effectively, so I'm not buying the "run away and prep Kirin" strategy either.



Yoko said:


> Not sure how Hebi Sasuke isn't a Sannin level fighter when he literally spits out a Sannin if he gets exhausted.




What does that have to do with _Sasuke's_ ability?​


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 1, 2016)

This level of Hebi Sauce wanking is crazy. He's low kage at best. Him being "portrayed" as being some kind of fight for Itachi is flat out bs when Sasuke got kicked around for half the fight and it was still Itachi's plan for Sasuke to fucking win. Even dying Itachi couldve one shot Hebi Sasuke if he wanted. Tsukuyomi>>3T Sharingan. A serious Tsukuyomi isnt something Sasuke can escape from.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Apr 1, 2016)

Matty said:


> *Opponents*
> 
> Mei
> 
> ...



No, he's easily Mid Kage. Out of the characters listed, only Kisame would certainly beat him. Jiraiya would beat him more often than not, too, but he might lose in the scenario where he can't reach Sage Mode in time.


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## shade0180 (Apr 1, 2016)

> Sasuke also has Genjutsu which he can use on Tsunade & Katsuyu



Proof that sauce can genjutsu 10,000 characters at once. We know Nardo can cloak that many.. that's how many Naruto needed to spread the cloak to and that's how many Katsuyu we are given when she needed to split for everyone in the war arc to have each for anyone on them..


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## OneSimpleAnime (Apr 1, 2016)

Sasori is maybe the only person he can beat. If he gets nicked its over for him. He doesnt have the strength or ability to really stop satetsu anyway. Mei just straight up melts him. He needed Ribcage sus to survive in acid mist and even that was melting quickly


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## Azula (Apr 1, 2016)

Hella overrated.

Itachi was babystitting him all the fight


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## Skaddix (Apr 1, 2016)

I really don't think The Sauce spitting out Orochimaru when tired counts as Sauce winning the fight. What that means is Sasuke will become Orochimaru and thus not Sasuke. Hebi is Sasuke without MS right because in my book MS is what really puts him in Kage Level. Sure he beat Deidara but he was a perfect counter and still need an asspull come on summoning Manda to not die that fast. BS.


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## Mithos (Apr 1, 2016)

I don't think he beats anyone on that list, to be honest.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2016)

Bonly said:


> Prove Senshokuko is fast enough to hit Manda and prove Manda can't avoid a tsunami wave.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. But you can't prove that he can avoid it, Manda's never dodged any exceptionally fast attacks. Just because he could dodge Katsuyu's fodder acid and appear behind her and Tsunade before they can react doesn't mean anything considering how slow they both are. 

2. Jiraiya can summon any of the toads is the point I'm trying to make. If he wanted too he could summon up the whole Gamatrio. 

3. There's no way to prove that Manda is fast enough to do that. 

4. Sasuke is never avoiding any of Kisame's AOE. There's no evidence that he's fast enough to do such a thing. 

5. Really? That was because he was pointing out that the current "Madara" was a fake because the real Madara was here, and the former was because he was busy having a discussion with Sasuke. He wasn't even fighting any of them when he had done those things. 

6. Sasori cannot surround himself in an enormous dome of sand. make a Third Eye out of sand, and simultaneously attack his opponent with moving tsunamis and tendrils of sand. So no, Sasori cannot do the same thing. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He is a solid Mid Kage, Sannin tier. His portrayal also confirms this.
> People want to dismiss  the fact that he is easily Sannin tier simple because they don't want to acknowledge that Itachi would stomp the likes of them.
> In other words agenda.
> 
> ...



1. Sasuke *only* beat Orochimaru because he was on his deathbed, he only approaches that after he absorbs Orochimaru and even then any of the Sannin could defeat him. Regardless of whether Itachi can beat them all or not. 

2. Gaara's sand blocked Sasuke's Amaterasu and an attack from V2 A mid-air, Sasuke is never touching Gaara at that point or breaching his improved sand defense. Let's not be ridiculous now.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> 1. Sasuke *only* beat Orochimaru because he was on his deathbed, he only approaches that after he absorbs Orochimaru and


I never said anything regarding this.



> even then any of the Sannin could defeat him.


Conjecture.



> 2. Gaara's sand blocked Sasuke's Amaterasu


No it didn't. 
First off, it was enton and second off it was done off panel.
Not that blocking enton amounts to anything because raw enton has no piercing properties.



> nd an attack from V2 A mid-air,


It was an Interception feat, and A was on a freefall. 



> Sasuke is never touching Gaara at that point or breaching his improved sand defense. Let's not be ridiculous now.



Deidara was casually outmanuvering Gaara's sand and Sasuke is faster than Deidara without CS.
Sasuke can dance around Gaara all day and can pierce his sand defenses with chidori or chidori lance. Or just nuke him out of existance with Kirin.
Raiton > sand 

looked right


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

mangekyo sasuke was getting his ass soloed by the kages on by one , he wouldn't have passed killer bee fight without his team mates , he wouldn't have passed the raikage's punch if suigetsu didn't save his ass , yet his much weaker hebi version is a solid mid kage 
fkn NBD logic


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I never said anything regarding this.
> 
> 
> Conjecture.
> ...



What difference does it make if it's Amaterasu or Kagutsuchi? Kagutsuchi is just Amaterasu with an actual shape and form applied to it. Sasuke was forced to use it to defend himself Gaara's sand, as he said so himself and proceeded to compliment Gaara's "absolute defense" before saying he had even more absolute defense when he used Susanoo. 

Deidara also had the ability to fly and forced Gaara to use a lot of sand to protect himself due to Deidara's various long-range and highly destructive attacks. Gaara's fight would never go the same way with Sasuke. If both Gaara and Sasuke had knowledge and Gaara retreated to the skies and then started attacking Sasuke he would be helpless and would end up getting overwhelemed before dying rather quickly. He'd also never be able to set up Kirin and it'd be much weaker due to the lack of Amaterasu anyway.


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> 1. But you can't prove that he can avoid it, Manda's never dodged any exceptionally fast attacks. Just because he could dodge Katsuyu's fodder acid and appear behind her and Tsunade before they can react doesn't mean anything considering how slow they both are.



The manga has constantly showed us the snakes(well boss snakes) are decent fast such as Manda dodging Katsuyu's acid to quickly grabbing hold of her and dodging Bunta's sneak attack as well as completely shedding all of his skin and then going underground all before this huge Katon can hit him and this huge Katon is as big if not bigger then both Senshokuko and a Tsunami of sand. Then we have Aoda dodging attacks and quickly running through the Juubi body part thingys(or whatever they are called) as well as from Manda2 quickly swimming and attacking the turtle fast.

You on the otherhand don't have any feats to suggest either of the two jutsu are fast. You don't have any hype that either of the jutsu are fast. You don't have Kishi being constant in the showing of speed being fast for either jutsu. So unless there's something in the DB that I missed, my proof is the that Manda can avoid it is that not only has he actually dodge a jutsu with a big AoE but he and the other two boss snakes have been portrayed as fast. So unless you bring something new to the table, I have no reason to assume Manda can't avoid them just because their jutsu is big in AoE.



> 2. Jiraiya can summon any of the toads is the point I'm trying to make. If he wanted too he could summon up the whole Gamatrio.



I see that point but my counter point is that it isn't likely to happen.



> 3. There's no way to prove that Manda is fast enough to do that.



Yes there is proof, Manda has constantly shown to be fast and can attack with both his tail and his mouth. Mei may be fast but nothing suggest she's fast enough that Manda attacking from underground can't at the very least throw her off balance or leave her open to an attack. So unless you can bring out Mei speed feats to suggest Manda can't do anything and he's just an ant to her, then yeah he can do it.



> 4. Sasuke is never avoiding any of Kisame's AOE. There's no evidence that he's fast enough to do such a thing.



What does Kisame have, like two large AoE Suitons that are used for attacking? Sasuke getting on Manda is enough for him to dodge Kisame's AoE which have no speed hype/feats behind them.



> 5. Really? That was because he was pointing out that the current "Madara" was a fake because the real Madara was here, and the former was because he was busy having a discussion with Sasuke. He wasn't even fighting any of them when he had done those things.



I was joking pointing that out, I just find it funny that Gaara is constantly looking at their eyes. Anyway as I said before hand whenever Gaara fought an Uchiha he never put a bunch of sand if front of himself just to block LoS to block Genjutsu, he fights like he normally does so with no knowledge and only seeing a Sharingan I don't see him doing such like you suggest when his canon actions say otherwise. 



> 6. Sasori cannot surround himself in an enormous dome of sand. make a Third Eye out of sand, and simultaneously attack his opponent with moving tsunamis and tendrils of sand. So no, Sasori cannot do the same thing.



Sasori can make shapes with Satetsu just like Gaara can make shapes with his sand so yeah Sasori can make a dome as well as Tsunamis(if he got out enough Satetsu) and tendrils. Only thing he might not be able to make is a third eye but seeing as how Satetsu is a product of the KG Jiton and Rasa(the Yondaime Kazekage) can make a third eye using gold dust which is a product of Jiton so there's a chance that Sasori could make a third eye with Satetsu but who knows for sure. Sasori can do damn near whatever Gaara can do more or less.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2016)

Bonly said:


> The manga has constantly showed us the snakes(well boss snakes) are decent fast such as Manda dodging Katsuyu's acid to quickly grabbing hold of her and dodging Bunta's sneak attack as well as completely shedding all of his skin and then going underground all before this huge Katon can hit him and this huge Katon is as big if not bigger then both Senshokuko and a Tsunami of sand. Then we have Aoda dodging attacks and quickly running through the Juubi body part thingys(or whatever they are called) as well as from Manda2 quickly swimming and attacking the turtle fast.
> 
> You on the otherhand don't have any feats to suggest either of the two jutsu are fast. You don't have any hype that either of the jutsu are fast. You don't have Kishi being constant in the showing of speed being fast for either jutsu. So unless there's something in the DB that I missed, my proof is the that Manda can avoid it is that not only has he actually dodge a jutsu with a big AoE but he and the other two boss snakes have been portrayed as fast. So unless you bring something new to the table, I have no reason to assume Manda can't avoid them just because their jutsu is big in AoE.
> 
> ...



Laughable at best. All this is doing is showing me that Manda is even more of a threat to them than Sasuke himself. There's not even a need for me to go reaching for Manga chapters, Gaara, Kisame, and Mei's AOE is clearly greater than what Manda or Sasuke could handle. Gaara's sand can effect both the ground above and below, rendering Manda's underground attacks useless. Kisame can go underground himself and quickly turn entire areas into small lakes and rivers even when at 30% power, and later could make a water dome so massive that it towered over a forest. Mei's AOE is the weakest of them all but all she needs is one hand seal to create an enormous pillar of water that could overpower Madara's Katon and push his Susanoo back while she was exhausted. If any of them were serious from the beginning they'd stop Manda in his tracks. 

Also no, Sasori cannot and has never shown the ability to do so with the Third Kazekage. The Kazekage can only create and manipulate small amounts of sand that pales in comparison to the level Gaara has manipulated. That isn't even worth debating, the Third Kazekage might have been able too while he was alive but not after he became a puppet. The reason I rule Sasori out is because BoS Sakura and Chiyo nearly defeated him (They wont at the end because he let them). Sasuke would be fast enough to easily reach Sasori and pierce him through the chest while mowing down all of his puppets.


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## Matty (Apr 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Laughable at best. All this is doing is showing me that Manda is even more of a threat to them than Sasuke himself. There's not even a need for me to go reaching for Manga chapters, Gaara, Kisame, and Mei's AOE is clearly greater than what Manda or Sasuke could handle. Gaara's sand can effect both the ground above and below, rendering Manda's underground attacks useless. Kisame go underground himself and quickly turn entire areas in small lakes and rivers even when at 30% power, and later could make a water dome so massive that it towered over a forest. Mei's AOE is the weakest of them all but all she needs is one hand seal to create an enormous pillar of water that could overpower Madara's Katon and push his Susanoo back while she was exhausted. If any of them were serious from the beginning they'd stop Manda in his tracks.
> 
> Also no, Sasori cannot and has never shown the ability to do so with the Third Kazekage. The Kazekage can only create and manipulate small amounts of sand that pales in comparison to the level Gaara has manipulated. That isn't even worth debating, the Third Kazekage might have been able too while he was alive but not after he became a puppet. The reason I rule Sasori out is because BoS Sakura and Chiyo nearly defeated him (They wont at the end because he let them). Sasuke would be fast enough to easily reach Sasori and pierce him through the chest while mowing down all of his puppets.



Do you realize how much satetsu it took to make those large objects and also Kaihou? A lot more than you seem to think. Not tsunami sized but still pretty impressive considering how dense it was


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## Bonly (Apr 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Laughable at best. All this is doing is showing me that Manda is even more of a threat to them than Sasuke himself. There's not even a need for me to go reaching for Manga chapters, Gaara, Kisame, and Mei's AOE is clearly greater than what Manda or Sasuke could handle.



This right here just shows me that we're basically done here. You say that there's not a need for you to get manga chapters but in reality it's a case that you don't have an manga chapters to actually back up your claim because those AoE jutsu that you're backing up for Kisame+Gaara have no speed feats or hype or is portrayed as fast constantly compared to the boss snakes who has both. You bring nothing to the table other then you just constantly saying "Well hey they got big AoE that can't be dodged" without actually backing it up so if I can even show that Manda has canonly dodge a huge AoE jutsu which is as good as what you're herping on and provide no reply to it and go on to say "AOE is clearly greater than what Manda or Sasuke could handle." then we're done here and I can see why you don't see Sasuke beating any of them when you're being biased like that. So unless you chose to change your mind and actually back up what you say we're done here and we'll have to agree to disagree and I won't reply anymore.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2016)

Itachі said:


> *In my opinion he defeats Tsunade with low-medium difficulty*, has a decent chance at beating Jiraiya due to match-up but loses to Orochimaru. He can defeat some of them but he's not at their general level, except I believe that he's more powerful than Tsunade overall when it comes to 1v1 scenarios.



Stop being one of those Hebi Sasuke wankers. 

Tsunade took on 5 of Madara's clones, all of which were using V3 Susanoo at the same time.

Thinking Hebi Sasuke would win, let alone "low-mediun" is pretty retarded.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> *Stop being one of those Hebi Sasuke wankers*.
> 
> Tsunade took on 5 of Madara's clones, all of which were using V3 Susanoo at the same time.
> 
> Thinking Hebi Sasuke would win, let alone "low-mediun" is pretty retarded.



this like asking Shinobi no Kami to stop being a hashirama wanker


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 1, 2016)

This topic keeps coming up because its true , and he's only elevated to boost Itachi's stature amongst the power tier which is not only insecure but ludicrous because the manga already told you that he was well beyond Hebi Sasuke even on his death bed to the point he could metagame an entire fight and could have easily countered everything he threw at him .


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2016)

> this like asking Shinobi no Kami to stop being a hashirama wanker


I don't think it's that extreme with itachi (the member) in regard to Sasuke.


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## Matty (Apr 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't think it's that extreme with itachi (the member) in regard to Sasuke.



Agreed. Itachi is one of the most objective posters on here

That being said, I agree with you Eliyua, it can possibly stem from the fact that he ended up beating Itachi.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2016)

> That being said, I agree with you Eliyua, it can possibly stem from the fact that he ended up beating Itachi.



It pretty much is. They don't want itachi (who is probably the most popular character here) to look bad
because he died against Hebi Sasuke, so the only solution is to make Hebi Sasuke look that powerful when
he is far from it. 

He is Jonin level at the very best.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't think it's that extreme with itachi (the member) in regard to Sasuke.



you're right i should apologize to him


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## Matty (Apr 1, 2016)

He's definitely above jonin level. He's kage level no question 

And idk why it would matter. Itachi handled everything he threw at him on his deathbed and planned the entire fight. Nothing more impressive than that really


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2016)

> He's kage level no question



No he is not. 
That has been made clear. He needs his MS to even stand a chance, and we got an entire Arc for that.

This is not a rocket science. Even with the MS ( a superior power up) he was still going to die several times
and needed a lot of help to survive. 

He is a jonin-level and nothing more.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Hussain said:


> It pretty much is. They don't want itachi (who is probably the most *popular* character here) to look bad
> because he died against Hebi Sasuke, so the only solution is to make Hebi Sasuke look that powerful when
> he is far from it.
> 
> He is Jonin level at the very best.



i think what you mean is overrated ?


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 1, 2016)

@Bonly It's evident that you did not watch Gaara vs. Kimimaro, Gaara vs. Deidara,  or Gaara and Onoki vs Edo Kage then. Nor did you watch Kisame versus Team Guy or Kisame versus Killer Bee. Or the Gokage versus Edo Madara. Any person who has seen those would be able to easily tell that the AOE is superior, but if you insist. 

a product of Jiton  and a product of Jiton - Gaara has the geographical advantage, but he has shown back here a product of Jiton and a product of Jiton here that he can makeup for that by creating much more if he needs too. It's maddening to think that Sasuke and Manda could take on that massive volume and somehow avoid it with sheer speed when they're both incapable of flight and Gaara is. 

a product of Jiton Kisame did this at 30% power and later did a product of Jiton as well as this a product of Jiton and a product of Jiton too. Manda nor Sasuke is easily avoiding any of that considering none of Kisame's opponents who are all faster than Hebi Sasuke (save for Neji, Tenten, and Lee) were able to just jump away from that. It's ridiculous to think Sasuke or Manda are easily avoiding such techniques when Hebi Sasuke is comparable to the same people who didn't and Manda was able to blitz Tsunade, Katsuyu, and overwhelm Gamabunta who alongside the other two boss toads couldn't hit a few Pains. As for Mei I can't seem to find the chapter in which she did it, so I'll have to show hers another time. 

But it should be clear by now that Manda is inferior to them and would not be able to significantly pressure them all by himself and even he is a bigger threat than Sasuke is.


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## Trojan (Apr 1, 2016)

@cctr9
Well, he is overrated because he is popular. Even itachi himself knows that fact, and so do Kishi


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

Matty said:


> We don't judge wind arc naruto high kage because he has the Bijuu in him. So the fact that Sasuke has Orochimaru should be moot.



Wind Arc Naruto never showed the ability to release Kurama when his chakra was low. He'd only release small amounts for v1 cloaks. Sasuke actually does release Orochimaru when his chakra is low.

And unlike Wind Naruto, Sasuke is a lot better equipped to survive for a long time to get to that point.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Wind Arc Naruto never showed the ability to release Kurama when his chakra was low. He'd only release small amounts for v1 cloaks.* Sasuke actually does release Orochimaru when his chakra is low.
> *
> And unlike Wind Naruto, Sasuke is a lot better equipped to survive for a long time to get to that point.



how does sasuke releasing oro = sasuke is oro  ????


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> how does sasuke releasing oro = sasuke is oro  ????



Hebi Sasuke is literally the fusion of Orochimaru and Sasuke. Sasuke was also stated to be actively repressing Orochimaru with his own chakra. This is unlike Naruto. There is no seal holding Orochimaru in, it's all Sasuke. 

The moment he needs to release him, he can. So all you're really addressing is a Hebi Sasuke that's constantly using a portion of his strength to hold Orochimaru down, and not the whole package.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Hebi Sasuke is literally the fusion of Orochimaru and Sasuke.
> 
> Hebi means Snake.



so that means = naruto is a fox and killer bee is an octobull


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

Killer Bee and Hachibi are effectively one in the same in battle, as is Naruto once he became capable of releasing it. As is Sasuke and Orochimaru.


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## Android (Apr 1, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Killer Bee and Hachibi are effectively one in the same in battle, as is Naruto once he became capable of releasing it. As is Sasuke and Orochimaru.



bee and naruto are best buddies with their bijuu , they are perfect jin 
sasuke and oro are not 
also sasuke releasing oro when he's low on chakra is a bad thing


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## Saru (Apr 1, 2016)

If Orochimaru escapes from Sasuke's body, he can just go elsewhere.

He's not Sasuke's to control at that point.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

Saru said:


> If Orochimaru escapes from Sasuke's body, he can just go elsewhere.
> 
> He's not Sasuke's to control at that point.



Nor are any summons or internal partners truly enslaved. They tend to help out though, as Orochimaru did against Itachi.


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## Saru (Apr 1, 2016)

Orochimaru is not Sasuke's friend, nor is he bound to Sasuke by contract.

He can fap to Sasuke's battle from afar and then attack him when he's exhausted to take his eyes (if he so pleases).


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

Summons aren't "bound" by contracts, an example being Orochimaru saying Manda would turn on him if he knew he couldn't use jutsu.


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## Saru (Apr 1, 2016)

The Kuchiyose is still bound by a contract. Whether or not they break that contract is another matter.

Orochimaru is not Sasuke's personal summon.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

> The Kuchiyose is still bound by a contract. Whether or not they break that contract is another matter.



If they can freely break it, then they're not really bound.


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## Matty (Apr 1, 2016)

Naruto still possesses the bijuu so he's technically fused with it too. Hebi is his own animal and should be judged as such.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 1, 2016)

> Naruto still possesses the bijuu so he's technically fused with it too.



Yeah, and Gaara's ability to release Shukaku in part one was _one of Gaara's abilities_, and one that the Sand used intentionally against Konoha.

The fact remains that if someone wants to kill Sasuke body in the BD, then chances are they're going to have to fight both Sasuke and Orochimaru.

As he's far more unlikely than Gaara to be killed (by Kage levels) before accessing that power.


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## Matty (Apr 1, 2016)

Yes but the kyuubi is naruto. He's always had the kyuubi and it happens nearly every fight that he gets into (the ones that matter at least) but no one ever assumes he goes full kyuubi every time. 

Sasuke with Oro is like what Saru says. He's just watching from afar and waiting for an opportunity to get what he needs and get out.

I judge wind naruto the way he was when he fought in that fight. I usually always just grant Naruto Kn0 and nothing more. Seems to be the fairest way to judge him pre-SM and KCM


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2016)

Summons are bound by contracts this was explained in part 1. With the blood offering on the scroll

Typical sadgoob with straw grasping 

The orochimaru in Sasuke is waiting for Sasuke to be weak to steal Sasuke body. Sasuke did not release orochimaru to defend himself or attack . Orochimaru escaped and the first thing he said is I will take over Sasuke body . Thank you itachi


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## shade0180 (Apr 2, 2016)

> Summons are bound by contracts this was explained in part 1.



They can be summoned by the summoners that's as much as they have for a contract.

We have seen Summons attacking their summoner.

Gamabunta pretty much showed that in part 1, with Jiraiya.

Manda was also antagonizing Oro.

Gamabunta also gave a condition before he would even give a chance to help Naruto. 

so helping was always a choice.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 2, 2016)

^ Yup. But typical Icegaze.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The fact remains that if someone wants to kill Sasuke body in the BD, then chances are they're going to have to fight both Sasuke and Orochimaru.


Not really. Sasuke himself never unleashed Orochimaru. Orochimaru escaped from Sasuke because Sasuke's chakra had been depleted to such an extent where it could no longer hold Orochimaru in check. Bare in mind that Sasuke's chakra didn't even get to such a state post-Deidara battle where he needed to be bedridden for several days due to injuries and exhaustion. So unless a match between Sasuke and X, ends up being an extreme attrition war or someone absorbs all of Sasuke's chakra, Orochimaru isn't coming into play, which very little matches end up being.

Even looking at Hebi-Sasuke's match against Itachi, if Itachi wasn't specifically forcing an attrition war to draw Orochimaru out, he would have killed Sasuke before Orochimaru appeared. Deidara vs Sasuke was also decided based on Sasuke's ability to survive C4 and C0, not on an attrition basis. 

So at best you can argue Sasuke has a secret triumph to perhaps force a draw (because that's what it would be, as Orochimaru takes Sasuke's body if he prevails.) in attrition battles. But that's pretty irrelevant to most high-tier battles.

As far as effecting Hebi-Sasuke's overall level goes, of course it doesn't as Orochimaru breaking free due to Hebi-Sasuke exhausting nearly all of his chakra, isn't a skill of Hebi-Sasuke's that demonstrates his proficiency as a Ninja. This is unlike summons, which demonstrate a Ninja's proficiency by the Ninja A) having the ability to utilize a Ninjutsu to summon them & B) their collaborative capabilities w/ that summon.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2016)

Strat is actually right.
Orochimaru wouldn't let anyone kill Sasuke because he wants the body. He probably wouldn't trade his life while doing so, but he would do everything within his power to defeat Sasuke's enemy if it comes down to that.

Although I normally wouldn't consider him a part of Sasuke's power or a representation of his potential, just like I don't consider any summon to be a part of the users power as they have no control over them.


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## Mithos (Apr 2, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Strat is actually right.
> Orochimaru wouldn't let anyone kill Sasuke because he wants the body. He probably wouldn't trade his life while doing so, but he would do everything within his power to defeat Sasuke's enemy if it comes down to that.
> 
> Although I normally wouldn't consider him a part of Sasuke's power or a representation of his potential, just like I don't consider any summon to be a part of the users power as they have no control over them.



Summoning is a ninjutsu art, so it should be counted as someone's power.

Orochimaru breaking free is not one of Sasuke's techniques, cannot be done at will, and results in him being taken over at the end - ie. being defeated by Orochimaru as well. 

There is a clear difference.

And it's a weird logic that I'm seeing. Hebi Sasuke > Orochimaru because Orochimaru would appear and beat an opponent for him that he couldn't beat on his own?


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## Alex Payne (Apr 2, 2016)

Sasuke can consciously release Orochimaru. Him doing so isn't that much different from a suicide techs such as Shiki Fujin.


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## Mithos (Apr 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Sasuke can consciously release Orochimaru. Him doing so isn't that much different from a suicide techs such as Shiki Fujin.



I guess you're right. 

But unlike Shiki Fujin, which the caster can control, there's no guarantee that Orochimaru will even fight for Sasuke. Depending on the circumstance, he could literally just decide to take off and leave lol.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 2, 2016)

It is within Orochimaru's best interests to keep Sasuke safe. So unless they are facing someone so much stronger that he/she could kill them 100% - Oro would stay and fight imo. It isn't as reliable as Shiki Fujin. Far from it. But it doesn't make change the fact that if you want to kill Hebi Sasuke - you'd have to fight/scare away Oro too.


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## Saru (Apr 2, 2016)

Why would Orochimaru stay and fight someone that the person who defeated him (in his own dimension) can't beat?

I feel like the argument that Hebi Sasuke can release Orochimaru and have him fight is overly presumptuous with respect to Orochimaru's actions.

It also doesn't really say a lot about what Sasuke can do on his own (since he's not controlling Orochimaru's power at that point).


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 2, 2016)

If Sasuke removed Orochimaru from his body then he isn't really Hebi Sasuke anymore since he would lose all of his snake-based abilities.


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## Bonly (Apr 2, 2016)

Saru said:


> Why would Orochimaru stay and fight someone that the person who defeated him (in his own dimension) can't beat?



When Orochi was released from Sasuke, Sasuke was damn near out of chakra and ready for the picking and Itachi was damn near on deaths door as we saw him die a chapter later which couldn't have been more then a few minutes away. So if Orochi comes out after Hebi Sasuke is completely drained then there's a good chance that Sasuke's enemy wouldn't be to good either which gives Orochi a good shot at beating said person so even if Sasuke couldn't get the job done, Orochi can.


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## Saru (Apr 2, 2016)

But if Sasuke couldn't get the job done... Then he lost.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Apr 2, 2016)

Dresseur Pok�mon said:


> Summoning is a ninjutsu art, so it should be counted as someone's power.



No, its not as there is a clear difference between a tool which bends to the users will and an ally. 

Summons are allies. At least the sentient ones.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> It is within Orochimaru's best interests to keep Sasuke safe. So unless they are facing someone so much stronger that he/she could kill them 100% - Oro would stay and fight imo. It isn't as reliable as Shiki Fujin. Far from it. But it doesn't make change the fact that if you want to kill Hebi Sasuke - you'd have to fight/scare away Oro too.


No you don't. You just kill Hebi-Sasuke before all of his chakra is expended allowing Orochimaru to break free.


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## Bonly (Apr 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> But if Sasuke couldn't get the job done... Then he lost.



I agree, I was just backing up AP's point of Orochi wanting to fight for Sasuke when you asked by would Orochi fight someone who could beat Sasuke.


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## Empathy (Apr 3, 2016)

There's really no incarnation of Hebi Sasuke that didn't have Orochimaru absorbed. So if we're to assume that the manga incarnation of Hebi Sasuke fights X character under the predetermined circumstances the OP sets, and both characters exist at the same juncture, then the prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a potential variable that is part of Hebi Sasuke's character. I don't see how it's any different than the Kyuubi's influence on Naruto's battles during the manga before he gained control of him.


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## Saru (Apr 3, 2016)

Empathy said:


> There's really no incarnation of Hebi Sasuke that didn't have Orochimaru absorbed. So if we're to assume that the manga incarnation of Hebi Sasuke fights X character under the predetermined circumstances the OP sets, and both characters exist at the same juncture, then the prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a potential variable that is part of Hebi Sasuke's character. I don't see how it's any different than the Kyuubi's *influence* on Naruto's battles during the manga before he gained control of him.




Your word choice says it all.

There's a big difference between Orochimaru's emergence from Sasuke and Kurama's *influence* on Naruto, as Kurama doesn't emerge from Naruto's body, and if he did, he certainly wouldn't fight on Naruto's behalf. Orochimaru and Kurama are similar in that they don't have any allegiance to Sasuke once they escape. We wouldn't say that Naruto beat Kisame if Kurama escaped from Naruto's body and defeated Kisame; we would say that Kurama beat Kisame. 

Naruto would also die if Kurama broke Minato's seal, so there's that. 

Additionally, Orochimaru doesn't try to burst his way out of Sasuke's body in the same way that Kurama does when he "influences" Naruto--often times regardless of Naruto's health. Orochimaru was only able to escape Sasuke's body when Sasuke was running on E. That doesn't happen with Naruto in regards to Kurama.

If we consider a situation in which Orochimaru comes out of Sasuke's body, Sasuke will be out of chakra and in no condition to fight. At that point, how can you say that Sasuke defeated the enemy, and why wouldn't Orochimaru try to take over Sasuke's body after defeating the enemy? 
​


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Empathy said:


> There's really no incarnation of Hebi Sasuke that didn't have Orochimaru absorbed. So if we're to assume that the manga incarnation of Hebi Sasuke fights X character under the predetermined circumstances the OP sets, and both characters exist at the same juncture, then the prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a potential variable that is part of Hebi Sasuke's character. I don't see how it's any different than the Kyuubi's influence on Naruto's battles during the manga before he gained control of him.



I disagree, usually when I judge hebi sasuke, Oro isn't even in the equation. The only thing I give Naruto when fighting is Kn0. I feel that's the way most people do it or am i wrong


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2016)

Saru said:


> It also doesn't really say a lot about what Sasuke can do on his own (since he's not controlling Orochimaru's power at that point).



People have been making the same argument for ninja that are hugely reliant on summons (Jiraiya) for ages. In the end, you're calling for help from entities that don't _have_ to help you, but may choose to do so.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> People have been making the same argument for ninja that are hugely reliant on summons (Jiraiya) for ages. In the end, you're calling for help from entities that don't _have_ to help you, but may choose to do so.



Yes but in almost every case they always help. There is no reason for Orochimaru to help Sauce in this situation


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## Sadgoob (Apr 3, 2016)

Matty said:


> Yes but in almost every case they always help. There is no reason for Orochimaru to help Sauce in this situation



Yes there is... to preserve Sasuke's body, which he wants. If the match ends, then Sasuke's body remains alive and well.

A similar hypothetical would Itachi using Tsukuyomi on Killer Bee. Assume it wipes out Killer Bee, but that the Hachibi can take over from there and still fight. Bee lost, but only a part of him. The match goes on.

Hebi Sasuke is the fusion of Sasuke and Orochimaru. You can limit it to the Sasuke side only, but Orochimaru is part of the package as far as I'm concerned.


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## Yoko (Apr 3, 2016)

I am seeing a blatant double standard here in people's arguments.  As Strategos has pointed out, we're okay with characters like Jiraiya (summons make up like 80% of his power) and Tsunade (where the BD rates Katsuyu as Exodia-level) relying on summons . . . but god-forbid Sasuke uses Orochimaru (who he actually wastes chakra repressing) because that is considered "not his power" and inherently "cheating."



Sadgoob said:


> People have been making the same argument for ninja that are hugely reliant on summons (Jiraiya) for ages. In the end, you're calling for help from entities that don't _have_ to help you, but may choose to do so.



Kakashi officially has the best summon in Guy, whom he has on speed dial and can summon at any time.  Now canon.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I am seeing a blatant double standard here in people's arguments.  As Strategos has pointed out, we're okay with characters like Jiraiya (summons make up like 80% of his power) and Tsunade (where the BD rates Katsuyu as Exodia-level) relying on summons . . . but god-forbid Sasuke uses Orochimaru (who he actually wastes chakra repressing) because that is considered "not his power" and inherently "cheating."
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi officially has the best summon in Guy, whom he has on speed dial and can summon at any time.  Now canon.



80% of jiraiyas power? More like 20-25 at most. SM is majority of his power IMO. If we rate hebi high AF because orochimaru is inside him then we should rank Wind arc naruto high AF because kyuubi can come out and wreck shit. Its asinine. Hebi sasuke is everything before oroxhimaru comes out, just like wind arc naruto is everything before going over Kn0

Its really that simple

@Strat then that's just our difference. I rank him by sasukes arsenal only. Now I see why we see it differently. I respect that opinion, but I happen to just judge him by Sasuke and what he did in the deidara fight and itachi fight up until Oro came out because it is way too unpredictable.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> No you don't. You just kill Hebi-Sasuke before all of his chakra is expended allowing Orochimaru to break free.


Doesn't make it different from any suicide jutsu we know of. Possibility of killing the user before he can use his stuff shouldn't allow for said stuff to be discarded. Sasuke can choose to stop suppressing Orochimaru at any point he wants. It is his conscious effort to keep him suppressed. If he sees how much stronger his opponent is(or in BD match is given full knowledge) - he might as well gamble and release Oro while still having enough chakra to fight.


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## Yoko (Apr 3, 2016)

Matty said:


> 80% of jiraiyas power? More like 20-25 at most. SM is majority of his power IMO.



Yeah, and what is Sage Mode heavily reliant on? Summons.  Two of them.  On his shoulders.  Even base Jiraiya's power is reliant on summons, with his best move requiring Gamabunta's presence.



> If we rate hebi high AF because orochimaru is inside him then we should rank Wind arc naruto high AF because kyuubi can come out and wreck shit.



We don't rate Hebi Sasuke high solely _because_ Orochimaru is in him - it is simply another thing that adds to his strength.  I already rate Hebi Sasuke pretty high without factoring in Orochimaru.  

Your comparison doesn't work because Sasuke is actively repressing Orochimaru and can choose to release him at any time whereas Naruto didn't have control over his Kyuubi transformations.  And if Naruto dies, the Kyuubi dies for a temporary period of time too, as seen with Rin.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I am seeing a blatant double standard here in people's arguments.  As Strategos has pointed out, we're okay with characters like Jiraiya (summons make up like 80% of his power) and Tsunade (where the BD rates Katsuyu as Exodia-level) relying on summons . . . but god-forbid Sasuke uses Orochimaru (who he actually wastes chakra repressing) because that is considered "not his power" and inherently "cheating."
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi officially has the best summon in Guy, whom he has on speed dial and can summon at any time.  Now canon.


That's not a double standard... 100% of the time in the manga, when a summon is summoned, it helps the user. Its as simple as that. You're all assuming Oro HAS to help Sasuke. He doesn't at all. Oro is literally the most shady individual in the manga. He could leave Sasuke or take Sasuke and both would result in Hebi Sasuke taking an L. That's different from a contract seal in which the summoning is almost 100% loyal enough to protect its summoner to the death at ANY POINT OF THE FIGHT.

I also like how yall forget that Oro can ONLY come out when Hebi Sasuke has already lost. Which is clearly different from summoning contracts and having a Jin in your body. If Naruto KO's and Kurama comes out to finish the fight, Naruto doesn't take that W.


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## Yoko (Apr 3, 2016)

It's a double standard when we give other characters a pass but not others even though the situations are extremely comparable if not nigh identical.  In Orochimaru's case, it'd be in his best interest to protect Sasuke.  Plus, whoever Sasuke's opponent is will likely instinctively attack the 8-headed snake they see popping out of their opponent's shoulders, instantly giving Orochimaru incentive to fight back.  At best, it's a summon and at worst its a "death" technique like the 8-gates or Shinigami.  We don't exclude those.

And no, Orochimaru can come out whenever Hebi Sasuke allows him to, not when Sasuke already lost.  Here are a few scans to re-familiarize you with it:

*Orochimaru*: Unleash me.

*Zetsu*: Sasuke tried to force more chakra out when none was left.  With nothing to hold it back, Orochimaru's chakra has broken free.

Sasuke's chakra is actively repressing Orochimaru.  Orochimaru came out in this case because Sasuke wasted all his chakra.  That is not equivalent to needing Sasuke to run out of chakra - Sasuke can simply choose to not allocate chakra towards repressing Orochimaru anymore, which would result in Orochimaru emerging.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 3, 2016)

Not sure why Orochimaru is even in the equation to be honest, but I'll tag along anyway. 



Given how the moment Orochimaru came out he says he will take over Sasuke's body and defeat Itachi, that should mean that Orochimaru coming out should mean the end for Sasuke. 


Unless you want to count Orosuke as Sasuke defeating his opponent, then be my guess.  

The difference between this is Sasuke is permanently gone, while Orochimaru takes his place, unlike Kurama/Naruto,  Jiraiya/Summons etc.


Although, technically, the person who defeats Sasuke will almost certainly have to go for a round 2 against Orosuke, and unless they can do so, they'll die also.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2016)

Good thing the situations aren't close to identical.The concept that Oro has to save Sasuke has got me weak. Oro isn't on Sasuke's side bro. The only time Oro came out he explicitly stated that he was going to defeat Itachi then take over Sasuke's body and dip : Juubito.
If expending all your chakra to the point where Oro forces himself out, then watching oro defeat the opponent only for him to either lose or for him to win ,then completely taking over your body...counts as a win for Sasuke.... Then we ALL need to reevaluate how we view the BD.

I mean you destroyed your entire argument right there. Based on his dialogue in those panels, Sasuke is against letting Oro come out and this also is evidently clear by the fact that Sasuke chooses to repress his chakra. If Sasuke was positive that Oro would come to his aid, he would use him as a strategy not keep him locked away. Sasuke was close to death against both Deidara and Itachi, and choosing to release Oro wasn't on his mind. He clearly doesn't consider it part of his arsenal as its risky.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Yeah, and what is Sage Mode heavily reliant on? Summons.  Two of them.  On his shoulders.  Even base Jiraiya's power is reliant on summons, with his best move requiring Gamabunta's presence.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Alright I'm getting what you're saying but still. I think Hebi should be judged by his feats without orochimaru. Other people might consider Orochimaru to make him stronger. I already put him at mid kage without orochimaru.

I find a similar comparison with Orochimaru or Kabutos strength with and without ET. I find ET to be an amazing asset and incredible ability but essentially another person is fighting for them. I'll still put them higher because they can do this but this doesn't make me think Orochimaru the fighter is any better because he can summon madara to GG nearly anyone

I also think others get the benefit of the doubt because they use summons all the time. The only time Oro came out was when Sasuke was exhausted. If he doesn't use it often then why should we judge his power to release Orochimaru ? And on top of that its not as if Orochimaru definitely will help

So in essence its smartest to judge Sasuke for what he did against Deidara and Itachi without the Oro part. And at that point he is mid kage 

If we judge him by Orochimaru coming out then he is at orochimaaru's level because he still can't beat anyone that Oro can't


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

Empathy said:


> There's really no incarnation of Hebi Sasuke that didn't have Orochimaru absorbed. So if we're to assume that the manga incarnation of Hebi Sasuke fights X character under the predetermined circumstances the OP sets, and both characters exist at the same juncture, then the prospect of Orochimaru emerging is a potential variable that is part of Hebi Sasuke's character. I don't see how it's any different than the Kyuubi's influence on Naruto's battles during the manga before he gained control of him.



I agree with this. Regardless of whether it's Sasuke actually defeating the opponent or not, if Orochimaru emerges and ends Sasuke's opponent then it's going to be a draw, considering that Orochimaru is going to take over Sasuke's body anyway.

On whether Orochimaru's going to fight or not, he probably is. He needs Sasuke to stay safe so he can proceed to take over his body.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I agree with this. Regardless of whether it's Sasuke actually defeating the opponent or not, if Orochimaru emerges and ends Sasuke's opponent then it's going to be a draw, considering that Orochimaru is going to take over Sasuke's body anyway.
> 
> On whether Orochimaru's going to fight or not, he probably is. He needs Sasuke to stay safe so he can proceed to take over his body.



Alright. But orochimaru is not Hebi Sasuke is he? Once oro comes out its orochimaru. Its like saying Deidara is as strong as C0 but he's dying in the process


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## Alex Payne (Apr 3, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Good thing the situations aren't close to identical.The concept that Oro has to save Sasuke has got me weak. Oro isn't on Sasuke's side bro. The only time Oro came out he explicitly stated that he was going to defeat Itachi then take over Sasuke's body and dip : Juubito.
> If expending all your chakra to the point where Oro forces himself out, then watching oro defeat the opponent only for him to either lose or for him to win ,then completely taking over your body...counts as a win for Sasuke.... Then we ALL need to reevaluate how we view the BD.
> 
> I mean you destroyed your entire argument right there. Based on his dialogue in those panels, Sasuke is against letting Oro come out and this also is evidently clear by the fact that Sasuke chooses to repress his chakra. If Sasuke was positive that Oro would come to his aid, he would use him as a strategy not keep him locked away. Sasuke was close to death against both Deidara and Itachi, and choosing to release Oro wasn't on his mind. He clearly doesn't consider it part of his arsenal as its risky.


Oro is as much on Sasuke's side as Manda is on Oro's. They both help when there are benefits to be had from helping. In Manda's case - sacrifices. In Oro's case - potential to posses Sasuke's body. Sasuke was not out of options when fighting Deidara and Itachi. He had enough chakra to summon _Manda_ against Deidara and was betting on Kirin to end Itachi. He tries to win on his own but when it is 100% evident that he can't - why would he not release Oro? Between 100% simply dying and actually killing your opponent before "dying"... Sasuke doesn't really lose anything from Orochimaru's release. And no one is arguing that Orochimaru winning and possessing Sasuke is a win for Sasuke. It's a draw via suicide tech. People don't bash Minato or Gai when they "win" with Shiki Fujin and 8th Gate.


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## Yoko (Apr 3, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Good thing the situations aren't close to identical.The concept that Oro has to save Sasuke has got me weak. Oro isn't on Sasuke's side bro. The only time Oro came out he explicitly stated that he was going to defeat Itachi then take over Sasuke's body and dip : Juubito.



So he will defeat whoever Sasuke's opponent is and "dip", as you put it.  That's a win for Sasuke. or a draw at best, depending on how you view it.


> If expending all your chakra to the point where Oro forces himself out, then watching oro defeat the opponent only for him to either lose or for him to win ,then completely taking over your body...counts as a win for Sasuke.... Then we ALL need to reevaluate how we view the BD.



I don't think you understood my previous post.  Sasuke does not have to expend all of his chakra for Orochimaru to emerge.  He could very well just remove the chakra that he is using to suppress Orochimaru and have him emerge from the get-go.  Absolutely nothing dictates that Sasuke has to wait until he is tired to release him.



> Sasuke is against letting Oro come out and this also is evidently clear by the fact that Sasuke chooses to repress his chakra.



Because letting Orochimaru out means he may not be able to reabsorb him, which effectively causes Sasuke to lose snake jutsu and whatever other boost he may have had with Orochimaru still inside of him.


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

Matty said:


> Alright. But orochimaru is not Hebi Sasuke is he? Once oro comes out its orochimaru. Its like saying Deidara is as strong as C0 but he's dying in the process



It's true that Hebi Sasuke's case is quite different because he's essentially dead meat when Orochimaru is released, but his opponent is likely still going to have to fight Orochimaru. It's not his own power sure, but it's still something that he can use to secure a draw.


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## Yoko (Apr 3, 2016)

Matty said:


> I find a similar comparison with Orochimaru or Kabutos strength with and without ET. I find ET to be an amazing asset and incredible ability but essentially another person is fighting for them. I'll still put them higher because they can do this but this doesn't make me think Orochimaru the fighter is any better because he can summon madara to GG nearly anyone.



Edo Tensei, at least functionally speaking, is no different than any of Jiraiya's summons.  Orochimaru is calling forth past Hokage to help him out whereas Jiraiya is calling forth century-old toads to help him out.    In both cases, you're getting outside help.



> I also think others get the benefit of the doubt because they use summons all the time. The only time Oro came out was when Sasuke was exhausted. If he doesn't use it often then why should we judge his power to release Orochimaru ? And on top of that its not as if Orochimaru definitely will help.



Hebi Sasuke only got two fights, and the first he was able to win without using Orochimaru.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Hebi Sasuke only got two fights, and the first he was able to win without using Orochimaru.



Which is exactly my point. He doesn't need Oro coming out to be considered a high class fighter. It is such an unknown that there is no reason to even consider it a part of his arsenal because he only allowed when he was exhausted.

@Itachi I get that. That's why I judge him without Oro in the equation. When oro is released it is the same as C0 to me besides the fact that it isn't certain death. I judge Deidara based on feats besides C0 , we all know c0 is destructive but he dies too.

By that standard though too we judge Gai by 8th gate which is essentially suicide. So maybe I have to rethink a few things in my argument but I still stand by the fast that Hebi should be viewed as Sasuke and not what Oro can do when he is released.

There is a reason we restrict ET and Koto more than anything. Its because they aren't indicative of how Danzo and Oro are as fighters.

If I make a thread called Danzo vs Jiraiya I'm looking to see how Danzo actually fights, not how he uses koto and one shots just because he can. Or in 1v1 fights Danzo would be the absolute best.

Same thing with Hebi. If I make a thread called Hebi Sasuke vs Sasori I'm not saying "Hebi sasuke and then Orochimaru when he gets tired vs Sasori"


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

^ As Yoko has pointed out, Sasuke actively held back Orochimaru with his Chakra so we can assume that Orochimaru will emerge if he's left unattended to.

Make no mistake, Orochimaru slipping out of Sasuke's arsehole isn't a credit to Sasuke's ability, but I don't see how it can be completely ignored when it can certainly contribute to Sasuke's power. Same way 3 Tomoe Madara could just summon Kyubi to wreak havoc or Orochimaru could force a ton of snakes out of his mouth. Yeah, some work has to be done to attain those summons but it doesn't mean that it contributes to a Shinobi's actual skill level. Doesn't have to be fair and it doesn't have to mean that Sasuke has to be as powerful or skilled as his opponent to defeat him/her.


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

@Matty

Yeah, no disagreements there. Just because Sasuke has Orochimaru it doesn't mean that Orochimaru contributes to his actual skill level. Though Orochimaru can be considered if he isn't restricted in a Hebi Sasuke thread.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ As Yoko has pointed out, Sasuke actively held back Orochimaru with his Chakra so we can assume that Orochimaru will emerge if he's left unattended to.
> 
> Make no mistake, Orochimaru slipping out of Sasuke's arsehole isn't a credit to Sasuke's ability, but I don't see how it can be completely ignored when it can certainly contribute to Sasuke's power. Same way 3 Tomoe Madara could just summon Kyubi to wreak havoc or Orochimaru could force a ton of snakes out of his mouth. Yeah, some work has to be done to attain those summons but it doesn't mean that it contributes to a Shinobi's actual skill level. Doesn't have to be fair and it doesn't have to mean that Sasuke has to be as powerful or skilled as his opponent to defeat him/her.



I don't think it should be disregarded in the grand scheme but for BD I don't ever recall anyone saying Sasuke wins or draws because Oro comes out.

Its really all just a disagreement. I personally believe Hebi is Hebi until Oro comes out and others think he is still Hebi when Oro comes out.

Both sides have good points and most likely we aren't going to get anywhere.


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## Matty (Apr 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> @Matty
> 
> Yeah, no disagreements there. Just because Sasuke has Orochimaru it doesn't mean that Orochimaru contributes to his actual skill level. Though Orochimaru can be considered if he isn't restricted in a Hebi Sasuke thread.



Actually true. Because in some Hebi threads I make I specifically restrict  Orochimaru 

Maybe I'll have to rethink some stuff and get back to it here but I stand by my hebi is hebi until Oro comes out then its just Sasuke with an ally


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

Eh, I disagree. Jiraiya could win a fight by sitting back and solely letting all of his summons fight, it might not be due to Jiraiya's ability but he'd still win.

Though in Hebi Sasuke's case it is different since he's effectively dead when Orochimaru emerges, at most it's a draw imo. When Orochimaru comes out it's not Hebi Sasuke's actual power, but it's still something that allows him to win.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Oro is as much on Sasuke's side as Manda is on Oro's. They both help when there are benefits to be had from helping. In Manda's case - sacrifices. In Oro's case - potential to posses Sasuke's body. Sasuke was not out of options when fighting Deidara and Itachi. He had enough chakra to summon _Manda_ against Deidara and was betting on Kirin to end Itachi. He tries to win on his own but when it is 100% evident that he can't - why would he not release Oro? Between 100% simply dying and actually killing your opponent before "dying"... Sasuke doesn't really lose anything from Orochimaru's release. And no one is arguing that Orochimaru winning and possessing Sasuke is a win for Sasuke. It's a draw via suicide tech. People don't bash Minato or Gai when they "win" with Shiki Fujin and 8th Gate.


Nawwww I disagree. You would have a point of Manda was attempting to attack or Kill Oro after being summoning. But that's not the case. He fights against Oro's opponents for benefit. They both benefit from that. If Sasuke releases Oro, and then Oro takes over his body. They both aren't benefiting.

You may have a point with Deidara, but Itachi no. Sasuke was at 0 when Oro emerged. He was out of options. He was also blatantly against Oro coming out, so the whole " why not let Oro emerge" argument is destroyed right there. He doesn't want Oro out, Because being taken over isn't even close to a win in his mind.

Honestly my main point was that it isn't even close to the same as a summoning. So far from it . I can somewhat agree with it being a a suicdet tech , but in reality it is even lesser than that. Sasuke has no control of what oro does. There honestly is a chance Oro could just run away and let Sasuke die.


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

It's not the same as a summoning sure, but what they both have in common is that the summon does not necessarily represent the user's skill level or power. Orochimaru's very likely to fight against most opponents because he wants to take over Sasuke's body, he even fought Itachi in his most powerful form when he had previously admitted inferiority.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2016)

Yoko said:


> So he will defeat whoever Sasuke's opponent is and "dip", as you put it.  That's a win for Sasuke. or a draw at best, depending on how you view it.
> 
> 
> I don't think you understood my previous post.  Sasuke does not have to expend all of his chakra for Orochimaru to emerge.  He could very well just remove the chakra that he is using to suppress Orochimaru and have him emerge from the get-go.  Absolutely nothing dictates that Sasuke has to wait until he is tired to release him.
> ...


Its not 100% though. Either Oro defeats his opponent , takes over sasukes body, or simply leaves. Sasuke never gets a win from Oro emerging cause he's getting his body taken over anyway. So at best he pulls a draw from something he can't control.

I got your point. But the point is, Sasuke isn't pulling Oro out in combat. It isn't happening. Sasuke is going to have to be on E,and oro is going to have to force his way out. That's how it is. Sasuke is canonically against using Oro in battle.

That just further supplements my point. Sasuke isn't pulling out Oro unless he has already basically lost and from there on, there's a chance of Oro taking over his body or simply leaving. That isn't a win situation for Sasuke, and certainly isn't nigh identical to being a jin or possessing a summoning contract.


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## Itachі (Apr 3, 2016)

Likes Boss also has a point, Sasuke wasn't really aware of Orochimaru's Yamata technique and he didn't even have confidence in Orochimaru beating Itachi. Though if Sasuke's near death and his chances are very grim he really has nothing to lose if he releases Orochimaru.


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## Veracity (Apr 3, 2016)

IMO this panel is evidence that Sasuke really doesn't ever intend to use Oro as a part of his arsenal: battle.

The whole" shit no" when Oro was trying to emerge, and Sasuke actively trying to keep him under his control. This was also Sasuke who had basically lost against Itachi. Even then, he wasn't trying to let Oro out. 

And then this panel is evidence that Oro isn't on Sasukes side: battle.

The whole lemme defeat you Itachi, then I'm taking over Sasuke's body. And the fact that the only reason Oro was willing to fight against Itachi was because that was his original dream. He wanted Itachi's eyes, body, and Totsuka sword.


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## Saru (Apr 3, 2016)

Lol.

If Sasuke can release Orochimaru and have him fight on his behalf in most situations, he would be far more powerful. That is no small boost in Sasuke's standing. Additionally, if that were a scenario that Sasuke could assuredly bring about, he wouldn't have been so apprehensive about Orochimaru's escape, or that option would have been emphasized. Kishimoto portrayed the exact opposite of what people saying that Orochimaru (as in the Sannin himself, not his abilities) is a part of Sasuke's power are trying to suggest. This whole "Sasuke can release Orochimaru whenever he wants" deal is pointless and presumptuous given the fact that a) Sasuke has never sought to do so in character and b) even if he did, there is no guarantee that Orochimaru would help him.

If Sasuke can release Orochimaru, then he draws with his opponent at best because Orochimaru will take over his exhausted body after the opponent is defeated--at which point I don't know why in the world you would consider Sasuke a factor in that "victory" due to the fact that Sasuke did none of the work and would be defeated by Orochimaru shortly afterward. We don't typically consider Gai's strength with Eighth Gate when determining his standing for a similar reason.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Doesn't make it different from any suicide jutsu we know of. Possibility of killing the user before he can use his stuff shouldn't allow for said stuff to be discarded.


What suicide Jutsu require the user to be completely out of chakra to come into effect?



> Sasuke can choose to stop suppressing Orochimaru at any point he wants. It is his conscious effort to keep him suppressed. If he sees how much stronger his opponent is(or in BD match is given full knowledge) - he might as well gamble and release Oro while still having enough chakra to fight.


As far as Sasuke gambling goes, he'd be much more likely to gamble on a strategy w/ low odds of working, like holding out for Kirin in a full knowledge scenario than pulling out Orochimaru. Why? Well it's the same reason Naruto doesn't intentionally release Kurama every time he thinks he has low odds of winning, because Sasuke knows that he isn't just giving up his own life, but releasing a great evil on the world (Oro w/ Sasuke's body); and Sasuke isn't deep down an evil character (or at least that's how Kishi wants him to be viewed). Evident by the fact that Sasuke didn't choose to release Orochimaru even when up against the object of his sworn vengeance and completely outclassed by a dam war god, so why should I or anyone else find it likely that Sasuke sets Orochimaru free by his own volition, before it's well too late to do so. The answer is we shouldn't.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 3, 2016)

Hebi Sasuke's quite powerful imo, he'd be among my top 3 mid kage probably. He's just about as strong as you can get before the next power jump where high kage shinobi such as Stonewill Onoki / Ei dwell.

He'd beat the likes of Mei/Gaara/Kakuzu/Deidara and other mid range kage tier shinobi in that ballpark and is probably the overall strongest individual in there general level. He can hang for a little while against shinobi in the next tier and only starts getting thoroughly dominated by MS/SM users and those that can fight on that level.


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## Turrin (Apr 4, 2016)

That's another thing, if Sasuke is up against a very powerful enemy Orochimaru is more likely to peace out, than stay and fight a loosing battle or offer his enemy a deal (Sasuke's body in exchange for them going their separate ways). So Sasuke's chakra needs to be totally drained and he has to be lucky enough that Orochimaru decides to fight the opponent he's up against, all that and it still ends in draw. That's pretty shitty if you ask me.


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## Isaiah13000 (Apr 4, 2016)

Any scenario in which Sasuke is forced to release Orochimaru from his body to ask for aid means that Sasuke has lost, and it doesn't help either as there is multiple factors going into play as to whether or not Orochimaru will help Sasuke or not. Turrin's post is a good example of why things may not work for Sasuke, Orochimaru and Sasuke's enemy could simply team up to take him down fast and then Orochimaru gets to have his body and the enemy moves on (depending on who it is).


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