# Kage level tourament



## Bonly (Mar 17, 2015)

*Location:* This town

*Distance:* 45 meters, no LoS

*Knowledge:* None

*Mindset:* In Character

*Stipulations:*
Winners will be fully healed after the match. 

*Round 1:*
Match 1: Deidara vs A
Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs Danzo(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto)
Match 3: Jiraiya vs Sandaime Raikage
Match 4: Orochimaru vs Sasori
Match 5: French Dude vs Tsunade
Match 6: Konan vs Mei
Match 7: Kakuzu vs Gaara
Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs Muu

*Round 2:*
Match 9: Winner of Match 1 vs Winner of Match 2
Match 10: Winner of Match 3 vs Winner of Match 4
Match 11: Winner of Match 5 vs Winner of Match 6
Match 12: Winner of Match 7 vs Winner of Match 8

*Round 3:*
Match 13: Winner of Match 9 vs Winner of Match 10
Match 14: Winner of Match 11 vs Winner of Match 12

*Round 4:*
Match 15: Winner of Match 13 vs Winner of Match 14

Who will be this tournament's champion?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 17, 2015)

_Match 1: *Deidara* vs A _

Deidara flies, A dies (c3, or even an exploding bunshin maybe).

_Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs *Danzo* _

Kakashi doesn't have a perpetual defense to survive Izanagi spamming.

_Match 3: *Jiraiya* vs Sandaime Raikage_

At this distance, Jiraiya gets in SM and puts him down with superior ninjutsu.

_Match 4: *Orochimaru* vs Sasori_

I feel like Manda and the Kusanagi-snake wave would push beat Sasori.

_Match 5: *French Dude* vs Tsunade_

He's a great match for Tsunade. Dat liquid body.

_Match 6: Konan vs *Mei*_

Mei's acid mist basically makes her untouchable by paper, and then she murks.

_Match 7: Kakuzu vs *Gaara*_

Gaara can survive long enough to sand-sweep.

_Match 8: *Hebi Sasuke* vs Muu_

The Sharingan sees Mu's trick, and Sasuke can evade Jinton + Kirin him.

_Match 9: *Deidara* vs Danzou_

Can Danzou teleport that far into the sky? IMO, no.

_Match 10: *Jiraiya* vs Orochimaru_

Assuming this isn't god-tier Orochimaru, SM Jiraiya edges it out.

_Match 11: *French Dude* vs Mei_

Joki Boy is going to explode and push acid mist away quickly.

_Match 12: Gaara vs *Hebi Sasuke*_

Sasuke can fly, use genjutsu, raiton extensions, and Manda Gaara.

_Match 13: *Deidara* vs Jiraiya_

I'm gonna' say c4 trumps. Deidara use it fast too with Jman's rep.

_Match 14: French Dude vs *Hebi Sasuke*_

Sharingan sees through genjutsu, bitch.

_Match 15: Deidara vs *Hebi Sasuke*_


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> _Match 1: *Deidara* vs A _
> 
> Deidara flies, A dies (c3, or even an exploding bunshin maybe).
> 
> ...



If Ei doesn't go RnY at first, yes Deidara could win if he used C3. C1 and C2 aren't hitting the Raikage and haxxed C4 would be automatically neutralized by the Raiton around Ei's body. Also if Deidara doesn't fly very high he is always at risk to be stomped.

Danzo's Izanagi spam is not even relevant when Kamui outspeeds Izanagi. One Susanoo arrow was too fast for Danzo to make the necessary seals and activate Izanagi (1). Pre War arc Kakashi could perfectly warp not one but two Susanoo arrows in a single row with his long range Kamui, please note that when the two arrows were already close to him Kakashi still had to activate the Mangekyo and aim and open and close the warp (2)(3)(4); so Kakashi's long range Kamui is a lot, a lot faster than Danzo's Izanagi; basically Danzo has no chances and Kakashi solos him with ease.

SM Jiraiya has nothing at all to put down the 3rd Raikage. Even Frog Song wouldn't happen with the Raikage pressuring him.

Round 1:
Match 1: *Deidara* vs A
Match 2: *Kakashi (Kage summit Arc)* vs Danzo(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto)
Match 3: Jiraiya vs *Sandaime Raikage*
Match 4: *Orochimaru* vs Sasori
Match 5: *French Dude* vs Tsunade
Match 6: Konan vs *Mei*
Match 7: *Kakuzu* vs Gaara
Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs *Muu*

Round 2:
Match 9: Deidara vs *Kakashi (Kage summit Arc)*
Match 10: *Sandaime Raikage* vs Orochimaru
Match 11: *French Dude* vs Mei
Match 12: Kakuzu vs *Muu*

Round 3:
Match 13: *Kakashi (Kage summit Arc)* vs Sandaime Raikage
Match 14: French Dude vs *Muu* (it should be a draw, but by feats Muu is better)

Round 4:
Match 15: *Kakashi (Kage summit Arc)* vs Muu


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Kakashi wins.

Shocker.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

No, people will survive Kamui warp in spite of it being faster than they can even react and won't be tricked and Raikiri'd in spite of Kakashi fooling better characters than them.

That's more likely, yeah.


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

OP said:
			
		

> Knowledge: None
> 
> Mindset: In Character



This is Pre-War Arc Kakashi. Kamui is a last resort. Need I bring up the Pain fight, where he avoided using Kamui until Pain already had the match in hand?

Looking at the match ups in your analysis, Kakashi may defeat Danzo depending on how Danzo decides to approach the fight. He'd beat Deidara too, but most certainly stop at Sandaime Raikage.

Clone feint + Raikiri flank will fail due to the Raikage's durability, and Kakashi will get stabbed on the counter attack.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> This is Pre-War Arc Kakashi. Kamui is a last resort. Need I bring up the Pain fight, where he avoided using Kamui until Pain already had the match in hand?
> 
> Looking at the match ups in your analysis, Kakashi may defeat Danzo depending on how Danzo decides to approach the fight. He'd beat Deidara too, but most certainly stop at Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> Clone feint + Raikiri flank will fail due to the Raikage's durability, and Kakashi will get stabbed on the counter attack.



Last resort is a plot based argument. In the manga people only use their jutsu when they need to use them. Other than suicide moves or highly chakra taxing moves, every jutsu can be used when one wants, in a battle simulation. Kamui is chakra taxing for Kakashi, but it's clear that if he feels he have to use it he will use it. He can use it quickly, it's not like he has to enter some special mode, or something, so there isn't any problem, at least against opponent of this level.

Or Kakashi would just use a clone after another, and then warp away the Raikage. Or simply use Kamui from the start and call it a day.


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## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

A very tedious thread 

Match 1: Deidara vs A - Ei wins easily 
Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs Danzo(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto) - Danzo wins easily
Match 3: Jiraiya vs Sandaime Raikage - Sandaime wins
Match 4: Orochimaru vs Sasori - oro wins
Match 5: French Dude vs Tsunade - French dude wins
Match 6: Konan vs Mei - Mei wins
Match 7: Kakuzu vs Gaara - kakuzu wins
Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs Muu - Muu stomps

Round 2:
Match 9: Winner of Match 1 vs Winner of Match 2 - A wins
Match 10: Winner of Match 3 vs Winner of Match 4 - Sandaime wins
Match 11: Winner of Match 5 vs Winner of Match 6 - French dude wins
Match 12: Winner of Match 7 vs Winner of Match 8 - Muu stomps

Round 3:
Match 13: Winner of Match 9 vs Winner of Match 10- A dad trolls
Match 14: Winner of Match 11 vs Winner of Match 12- Muu wins(barely or dies)

Winner is A dad


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## Ghost (Mar 17, 2015)

*Round 1:*
Match 1: Deidara vs *A*. I don't see Deidara making it into the air before the Raikage kills him and even then only thing he has to kill Ei is nano bombs and they won't work if Ei has his RnY activated. Tall buildings also help Ei in reaching Deidara if he makes it into the air.


Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs *Danzo*(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto). This incarnation of Kakashi is not beating Danzo especially when he has no knowledge. Kakashi gets worn out and killed.


Match 3: Jiraiya vs *Sandaime Raikage*. Jiraiya dies before he realizes that Gamarinsho is his only chance of winning. He doesn't even make it to Sage Mode.



Match 4: *Orochimaru* vs Sasori. Imo its fair to assume Orochimaru is immune to Sasori's poisons or at least very resistant. Manda + snake spam should clear the puppet army and in the chaos allow Orochimaru to put down Sasori by a sneak attack. 



Match 5: *French Dude* vs Tsunade. Suika no Jutsu and Genjutsu pretty much shit on Tsunade. She goes down eventually. 



Match 6: Konan vs *Mei*. Acid counters Konan's paper completely. Mei wins handily.



Match 7: Kakuzu vs *Gaara*. Kakuzu is an aggressive fighter, but in this location Gaara should be able to survive long enough for him to have enough sand to overwhelm Kakuzu.



Match 8: *Hebi Sasuke* vs Muu. Its pretty clear that Muu cannot attack while being invisible (if even manages to fool the Sharingan in the first place) so invisibility doesn't do that much to him in here considering how fast and quick Sasuke's movement and reactions are. Jinton is far from being fast enough to hit from mid/long distance and its not instant. Sasuke's Chidori Eisou is five meters long CS should boost it's length and with the help of the buildings Sasuke should reach Muu if he takes flight. Manda works as a fantastic distraction also. 

*Round 2:*
Match 9:* Ei* vs Danzo. Raikage wins easily. He is just simply too fast for Danzo, and the latter can't even outlast him.



Match 10: *3rd Raikage* vs Orochimaru. Raikage ragdolls Oro.



Match 11: *Gengetsu* 5 vs Mei. Genjutsu + JB trump Mei.



Match 12: Gaara 7 vs* Hebi Sasuke*. Sauce plows through Gaara's sand like he has done before. Kakuzu without knowledge starts his fight with just Taijutus, Domu and Jiongu. He only later used his elemental jutsu against Team Kakashi. Sasuke isn't like that. He goes straight for his Chidori variants etc. 

*Round 3:*
Match 13: 4th Raikage vs *3rd Raikage*.



Match 14: Gengetsu vs* Hebi Sasuke*. Sharingan counters illusion and Sasuke's Ninjutsu take care of Gengetsu's.

*Round 4:*

3rd Raikage rips Sasuke in pieces.


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Last resort is a plot based argument.



No, It's an argument based on character tendencies. The "IC" stipulation isn't included for shits and giggles.   



> In the manga people only use their jutsu when they need to use them. Other than suicide moves or highly chakra taxing moves, every jutsu can be used when one wants, in a battle simulation. Kamui is chakra taxing for Kakashi, but it's clear that if he feels he have to use it he will use it.



Indeed, and Kakashi doesn't feel that he has to use until he's in that "last resort" type of situation.



> Or Kakashi would just use a clone after another, and then warp away the Raikage. Or simply use Kamui from the start and call it a day.



*No knowledge.*


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## Deer Lord (Mar 17, 2015)

Round 1:
Match 1: Deidara vs *A*
A blitz the shit out of deidara.

Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs *Danzo*(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto)
Nothing kakashi has is doing anything before izanagi.
Danzo stomps hard. 

Match 3: Jiraiya vs *Sandaime Raikage*
Jiraya can't do shit to someone who no-sells rasenshurikens.

Match 4: *Orochimaru *vs Sasori
Prolly Oro due to poison resistance.

Match 5: *French Dude* vs Tsunade
gengetsu trolls her with joki boy.

Match 6: Konan vs *Mei*
Mei melts konan easily.

Match 7: Kakuzu vs *Gaara*
War arc gaara has enough defense to deal with kakuzo's masks and kill them one by one.

Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs *Muu*
Jinton GG. Sauce is out of his league here.

Round 2:
Match 9: *Danzo *vs A
Prolly danzo. his wind release would damage A to the point he collapses.
11 minutes is enough for danzo to achieve this.

Match 10: Oro vs *Raikage*
Raikage outlasts.

Match 11: *Gengetsu *vs Mei
trollkage troills with clamp genjutsu.

Match 12: Gaara vs *Muu*
Jinton GG.

Round 3:
Match 13: Danzo vs *Third Raikage*
Unlike his son, the third is a shit lot more durable
he outlasts izanagi.

Match 14: Gengetsu vs *Muu*
they kill eachother
This is a really tough match, but muu is overall superior.

Round 4:
Match 15: Third raikage vs *Muu*
Invisibility+Jinton=GG.

Muu wins in the end.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No, It's an argument based on character tendencies. The "IC" stipulation isn't included for shits and giggles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And character tendency in this case is to use the jutsu if he feels he needs to, nothing more nothing less.

And in that "last resort" he can use it very well and very quickly even pre War Arc and pre complete mastery (1)(2) (3)(4) (5) (6)(7). And we clearly know that Kakashi is as fast to warp for offense (8) as he is for defense (9) (these are War Arc feats but it's just to show how he can use Kamui with the same quickness, timing and precision with no difference between passive defense and active offense, it's just a question of having enough reflexes to follow the objective and enough chakra to warp it). 

Perfect. That's infact what Kakashi does with no knowledge and when IC. He studies and tricks his opponent (10). Once he sees that Raikiri isn't killing the 3rd Raikage, he will warp him with Kamui.


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## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

@raikiri 1 question if kakashi tries raikiri thinking it would work and it fails. what makes u think he can pull of kamui before the 3rd breaks him in half? 
kakashi uses clones for distraction true. 

so A hits a clone, the clone shocks him. kakashi comes with raikiri..it doesnt work and then kakashi could very well die right there

also i dont see how kakashi has better reactions than MS sasuke. any reason to think he does??

wrapping naruto clone has to do with the wrap speed not his reactions. that would imply naruto was moving at  full speed. all kakashi would have to be is faster than obito kamui shooting out a stake which i dont recall it being mentioned as super fast or anything. 

So on what basis do u then think kakashi has better reactions than MS sasuke. considering this is kage summit kakashi. what reaction feats does he have? 

A removes his head


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @raikiri 1 question if kakashi tries raikiri thinking it would work and it fails. what makes u think he can pull of kamui before the 3rd breaks him in half?
> kakashi uses clones for distraction true.
> 
> so A hits a clone, the clone shocks him. kakashi comes with raikiri..it doesnt work and then kakashi could very well die right there
> ...



He just uses a clones after another. Or if he uses just one clone and then is grabbed when Raikiri doesn't damage the 3rd, he uses Kamui in his face. Or he just uses Kamui from the start.

Also, you say that Ei hits a Raiton Kage Bunshin and then so he is shocked, but that's actually wrong. A Raiton Kage Bunshin would do shit against Ei covered in Raiton Chakra Mode. Kakashi would have to use normal Kage Bunshin. But I think that the arguably smartest fighter in the manga would know that use Raiton charge against a Raiton covered man wouldn't be a good idea.

So you think that a stake shot by Obito with Kamui propelling it's not that fast, even when launched on Naruto point blank and at like 1 cm or so from hitting him. Well.

So you think that Kakashi's reaction and speed feats have been hyper-boosted (by what???) in the few days after Pain Arc and before the War Arc? Also, it's actually the opposite, you have to prove that pre War Arc Kakashi doesn't have better reflexes than MS Sasuke, who could play with V1 Ei level speed. I won't even list any feat, because it's just foolish to think that War Arc Kakashi has top notch reactions (he showed them) when a Kakashi of just some time before, who received no power up then, didn't have a similar level of reactions.


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## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

when clones take half his chakra supply?
mind showing me kakashi use 2 kage bunshin back to back in a fight?

if he splits his chakra 4 ways. how is he pulling off kamui? considering at full chakra kamui 2 arrows had him staggering

kage summit kakashi has zero feats to suggest he would react better than Ms sasuke. 

in ur kakashi boner moment u failed to read the OP


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> And character tendency in this case is to use the jutsu if he feels he needs to, nothing more nothing less.



Character tendency is what a character tends to do. This Kakashi tends to use various techniques before resorting to Kamui, even if those techniques continuously fail. Did you read the Pain fight? How about the Kakuzu one? 



> And in that "last resort" he can use it very well and very quickly even pre War Arc and pre complete mastery (1)(2) (3)(4) (5) (6)(7). And we clearly know that Kakashi is as fast to warp for offense (8) as he is for defense (9) (these are War Arc feats but it's just to show how he can use Kamui with the same quickness, timing and precision with no difference between passive defense and active offense, it's just a question of having enough reflexes to follow the objective and enough chakra to warp it).



I never questioned his ability use it.

I simply said he wouldn't use it IC without knowledge, because he refrained from doing so even when facing a legendary opponent that had just killed one of the Sannin. An opponent that could repel oncoming attacks nonetheless.



> Perfect. That's infact what Kakashi does with no knowledge and when IC. He studies and tricks his opponent (10). Once he sees that Raikiri isn't killing the 3rd Raikage, he will warp him with Kamui.



Seeing Raikiri fail will most likely make Kakashi resort to trying Raiden, or something that isn't Kamui.

Regardless, his clone isn't going to land Raikiri on the Third Raikage. His clone will create the opening for Raikiri to be landed, by the real Kakashi. Then the real Kakashi will get impaled. The end.

I doubt a clone is even fast enough to hit the guy anyway; a KCM Naruto clone had to rely on chakra arm redirection to land Rsenshuriken despite that technique being incredibly quick on its own right.


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## Icegaze (Mar 17, 2015)

clones are weaker than originals 
kakashi uses a clone to shock the raikage
then the real kakashi comes in and dies as a result


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when clones take half his chakra supply?
> mind showing me kakashi use 2 kage bunshin back to back in a fight?
> 
> if he splits his chakra 4 ways. how is he pulling off kamui? considering at full chakra kamui 2 arrows had him staggering
> ...



Kage Bunshin gives back the chakra he doesn't use to the user when poofs or it is released. Because if it doesn't work that way, I will remind you how Kakashi splitted his chakra to 50% using Kage Bunshin for the Raiden against the Bijuu, then splitted his chakra to 25% using Kage Bunshin again for the Raiden against the Gedo Mazo (now count that he used Raikiri and other jutsu too and the Sharingan too, so we say 50% and 25% but it is probably something like 40% and 20%) and with that 20% he used five Kamui, also the Sharingan and other jutsu. If you don't believe this, which I don't (even if as a Kakashi fan, that would let me say that full chakra Kakashi could use 25 Kamui plus other jutsu), you have to say that Kage Bunshin gives not used chakra back to the user, so moot point.

If you said so.



Rocky said:


> Character tendency is what a character tends to do. This Kakashi tends to use various techniques before resorting to Kamui, even if those techniques continuously fail. Did you read the Pain fight? How about the Kakuzu one?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because of plot. Because he couldn't win those fights, and the enemy couldn't counter Kamui, hence he couldn't use it but had to use other things that let him give a good showing but not win in the end. As simply as it is. As for many other characters with many other jutsu. When he felt he needed against Deidara, he used even if unexperienced. When he felt he needed against someone believed to be Madara, he was about to use it. The plot is marvellous, as Kakashi faced the real Madara later and never thought about using Kamui on him. Not even with the chance to have people like Gai and Naruto keep busy Obito when he tried to imprison Madara in the other dimension.

He didn't need it when he was tricking said opponent that would have died with a direct physical hit. He will need it when this opponent wouldn't be bothered after being hit.

Pre War Arc Kakashi doesn't have Raiden. His strongest attack, after Kamui, is Raikiri (+ Sharingan precognition obviously). Or Raikiri shaped in Raijuu Tsuiga, if you want to argue that, but if Raikiri doesn't cut, I would bet my ass he would use Kamui. Or he would just use it from the start.

I don't see why he can't. Kakashi's Kage Bunshin can use Raikiri (against Pain he used Raikiri shaped in the Raijuu Tsuiga, and in the War Arc they used Raikiri to fuse with the original for Raiden) and seem to have the same physical speed of the original (they Shunshin dash at the same pace of the original when using Raiden. The 3rd Raikage is "just" as fast as V1 Ei.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> clones are weaker than originals
> kakashi uses a clone to shock the raikage
> then the real kakashi comes in and dies as a result



Not when they are only used as one or two, and not in a Kage Bunshin army. Kakashi's clones showed to have the same speed of the original and to be able to use Raikiri as well.

Kakashi would have to use normal Kage Bunshin. Raiton Kage Bunshin's shock would do shit against the Raikage's Raiton shroud.


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Tobirama said outright that clones wouldn't be quick enough to execute the Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tobirama said outright that clones wouldn't be quick enough to execute the Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi.



But, as I said, everyone could see that Kakashi's clones showed they could dash at the same pace of the original and use the same S-rank Raiton jutsu. Maybe it's just something related to the Hiraishin mechanics, for example Minato or Tobirama could use the jutsu by themselves while Genma, Raido and the other jonin needed to be in a trio to perform it. I don't know.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 17, 2015)

[YOUTUBE]gu1K5iQTrCQ[/YOUTUBE]


Muu.


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> But, as I said, everyone could see that Kakashi's clones showed they could dash at the same pace of the original and use the same S-rank Raiton jutsu.



Cool, and unless you can somehow prove that that dash was Kakashi's maximum speed (or at least quick enough to hit the Raikage), then that still isn't evidence that Kakashi's clones are special and as fast as the original.  



> Maybe it's just something related to the Hiraishin mechanics, for example Minato or Tobirama could use the jutsu by themselves while Genma, Raido and the other jonin needed to be in a trio to perform it. I don't know.



Tobirama & Minato's clones have already demonstrated the ability to use Hiraishin just as well as the originals.


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## Mercurial (Mar 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Cool, and unless you can somehow prove that that dash was Kakashi's maximum speed (or at least quick enough to hit the Raikage), then that still isn't evidence that Kakashi's clones are special and as fast as the original.
> 
> 
> 
> Tobirama & Minato's clones have already demonstrated the ability to use Hiraishin just as well as the originals.



You have to prove the opposite, actually. I think that the thing is the same for all the Kage Bunshin/Mokuton Bunshin/Raiton Kage Bunshin, used by Kakashi or whoever. If the user makes one or a couple, their physical stats are like the original. Otherwise, if he makes a clone army, they are shittier. Kakashi's clone dashed at the same pace of the original to slash through the V2 chakra arms. Hashirama is as fast as Madara and his Mokuton Bunshin dashed against Madara at basically the same pace of the Uchiha in the final clash when he tricked him.


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## Rocky (Mar 17, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> You have to prove the opposite, actually.



I did prove that clones are slower than the originals when Tobirama, the father of the jutsu, said so.

If you are trying to sell that Kakashi's are different, than provide me feats of Kakashi's clones moving at Kakashi's top speed.

Unless, of course, you think that Raiden dash was Kakashi's top speed.



> I think that the thing is the same for all the Kage Bunshin/Mokuton Bunshin/Raiton Kage Bunshin, used by Kakashi or whoever. If the user makes one or a couple, their physical stats are like the original. Otherwise, if he makes a clone army, they are shittier.



Except Tobirama & Minato only had one clone active at the time.



> Hashirama is as fast as Madara and his Mokuton Bunshin dashed against Madara at basically the same pace of the Uchiha in the final clash when he tricked him.



Maybe that's the reason Hashirama's clone got sliced. ck


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## Icegaze (Mar 18, 2015)

creator of kage bunshin and madara have both said clones are much much weaker than the original 
why are we arguing this?

madara sat down with mere V2 susanoo and was beating hashirama clones. yet with his PS he cant beat the original 

i think the gap is clear. kakashi is using clones for distractions as he has always done. unless u got a panel of kakashi using his clone to land a decisive hit. ill wait  

kakashi comes out the wood work to land the killing blow and gets slapped to death


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 21, 2015)

People still think Hebi Sasuke can fly and beat Gaara. Lol


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## ARGUS (Mar 21, 2015)

*Round 1:*
Match 1: Deidara vs A - *Ay wins mid diff*
Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs Danzo(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto) - *Danzo wins this mid/high diff*
Match 3: Jiraiya vs Sandaime Raikage - *Third Raikage wins mid diff*
Match 4: Orochimaru vs Sasori - *Orochimaru wins this mid/high diff*
Match 5: French Dude vs Tsunade - *Gengetsu wins high diff*
Match 6: Konan vs Mei - *Mei wins this high diff*
Match 7: Kakuzu vs Gaara - *Gaara wins mid diff*
Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs Muu - *Muu wins low diff*

*Round 2:*
Match 9: Ay vs Danzo - *Ay wins this mid/high diff*
Match 10: Third Raikage vs Orochimaru - *Third Raikage wins low diff*
Match 11: Second Mizukage vs Mei - *Second Mizukage wins high diff*
Match 12: Gaara vs Muu - *Muu wins mid diff*

*Round 3:*
Match 13: Ay vs Third Raikage - *Third Raikage wins mid diff*
Match 14: Second Mizukage vs Muu - *Tie, with Muu edging out just barely*

*Round 4:*
Match 15: Third Raikage vs Muu - *Muu wins this *


> Who will be this tournament's champion?


Muu


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

@kazekage
he did fly, of course sasuke can fly. deidara mentions it. he flew to avoid the blast of the mine
ur denial is strong. most would tell u and still tell u sasuke or deidara beat gaara. i dont get ur denial


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

> Match 1: Deidara vs A


With no knowledge Deidara isn't taking flight before it's too late. Ei blitz him and he dies. Ei low dif



> Match 2: Kakashi (Kage summit Arc) vs Danzo(arm starts off unsealed, no Koto)


Kakashi can't use MS in the Kages arc, enough to keep up with Danzo's Izanagi. Eventually Kakashi will run out of steam and Danzo will take this with mid to high diff. Though it's possible Danzo could lose diff Kakashi, if he catches him off guard with Izanagi ambush.



> Match 3: Jiraiya vs Sandaime Raikage


Jiraiya will struggle in the beginning to reach SM, but he reached it against Pain, so I feel Kishi will allow him to reach it here. Jiraiya should be able to beat Raikage the same way dat-clone did. Granted he won't have Hachibi to help give him intel, but i'm pretty confident that Jiraiya and two elder toads can figure this out regardless. If not than he'd still win by defending until he executes Frog-Song or Toad Gourd Barrier seal, as with SM sensing Sandaime can't really touch him.



> Match 4: Orochimaru vs Sasori


I'm assuming Orochimaru doesn't have Edo-Tensei otherwise he rapes everyone. With that in mind the fight will depend on whether Orochimaru is immune to Sasori's poison or not. If he is than he takes this with mid diff, if he's not than he could loose, especially due to lack of knowledge. I tend to believe Orochimaru would be immune, so i'll give him to nod here.



> Match 5: French Dude vs Tsunade


If Tsunade is smart enough to use Katsuya splitting to find the clam she should take this fairly comfortably. If she's not than it becomes a stamina contest; Joki Boi blows Tsunade away, Tsunade regenerates, and so on until one of them runs out of steam. Which depends on how much chakra Tsunade has sealed, if it's 2.5 years than she comfortably wins, if it's Kage vs Madara fight level it's more debatable though I still lean towards her, and if it's sannin duel than she looses.

Overall I give the nod to Tsunade though.



> Match 6: Konan vs Mei


Konan really lacks tangible displays to evaluate her, so i'm just going to assume Mei wins for simplicity sake.



> Match 7: Kakuzu vs Gaara


At this stage of the game Gaara should be capable of defending Kakuzu's attacks and eventually sealing him. Gaara takes it, but probably with a decent amount of difficulty.



> Match 8: Hebi Sasuke vs Muu


Sasuke can see through Mu's invis, but he still has nothing on Jinton, so he'll eventually get pinned down and loose.



> Match 9: Winner of Match 1 vs Winner of Match 2


Danzo with Izanagi will be able to survive Ei's attacks and catch him off guard with Fuuton to deal with his Raiton Armor. Danzo should take this with mid to high diff.



> Match 10: Winner of Match 3 vs Winner of Match 4


Jiraiya will struggle in the beginning to reach SM, but he reached it against Pain, so I feel Kishi will allow him to reach it here. With danger sensing Jiraiya will dodge around all of Orochimaru's attacks and with Frog-Song he can eventually take down Orochi, despite his durability. Jiraiya wins with high diff.



> Match 11: Winner of Match 5 vs Winner of Match 6


Tsunade owns Mei for obvious reasons.



> Match 12: Winner of Match 7 vs Winner of Match 8


Gaara can find Mu, so there's that, but Jinton overpowers Gaara's defense, so ultimately he's gone down to Jinton



> Match 13: Winner of Match 9 vs Winner of Match 10


Danzo may be able to kill Jiriaya before he reaches SM, but given the distance and again Kishi allowing him to reach it against Pain, I believe he'll be able to reach it here, with at worst some serious injuries, but he'll recover with the help of Senjutsu once in that mode. Once in SM Jiraiya with SM danger sensing and some of the most impressive Katons is set up well to avoid Danzo's attacks until Izanagi runs out. From there he should take this with High to extreme diff.



> Match 14: Winner of Match 11 vs Winner of Match 12


Mu's Jinton is bad news for Tsunade, so unless she has enough Byakugo chakra to significantly augment her speed (like 2.5 years worth) she is probably going down to Jinton.



> Match 15: Winner of Match 13 vs Winner of Match 14


Jiraiya has all the right tools to defend against Mu's invis and elemental techniques. Jinton could be a major issue if Mu uses before he reaches SM, but after SM, his danger sensing should alter him and allow him to take defensive measures. Even before SM he should be able to react to the charge up and attempt to disrupt it. As long as Jiraiya reaches SM, he is going to win though.

Ultimately while Jiriaya can loose to some of these guys before entering SM, I think more often than not he will be allowed to reach SM, like he was against Pain, and once in SM he is the best all around fighter here. That is of course unless Orochimaru has Edo-Hokages or Tsunade has 2.5 Years Byakugo, in which case they stomp their way through all the matches. But for fairness sake i'm assuming that is not the case here.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

@turrin 
please do explain how jiriaya and the 2 frogs will figure out that the only shot they have at harming the sandaime is to use his jutsu against him. why on earth would that be something they figure out??

hachibi who fought the sandaime wasnt even sure. thats intel that needs to be given. also considering jiraiya has zero feats to say he can pull off what naruto did (considering naruto was stated more than once to have surpassed jiraiya ) 

jiriaya gets split in half in SM or not

odd how sandaime cant touch jiriaya but pain could. despite being slower by a good good margin. So jiraiya would pull off frog song while defending?? nice joke there. u do know when the frogs using frog song, they cant help jiriaya out. which leaves jiriaya with all his techniques which wont even slow the sandaime. 

considering he tanked FRS, hachibi said he can take a hit and hachibi was fought to exhaustion (do u know a bijuu who gets exhuasted despite their large pool of chakra without firing BD's?? ) 

thats ridiculous bias right there

note: jiriaya reached SM in about a chapter against 1 path of pain!!! 1!!! konohamaru did beat one, in a 1 on 1 bout. using that to say jiraiya will get into SM when his opponent is much much much faster than every path and can tank everything jiriaya can throw at him without the slighest effort is silly. what stops sandaime from attempting a blitz off the bat. or are u assuming for some fictional reason that jiriaya is fast enough to avoid him especially in base?? good luck blocking something that exceeds the cutting power of FRS


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Ultimately while Jiriaya can loose to some of these guys before entering SM, I think more often than not he will be allowed to reach SM, like he was against Pain, and once in SM he is the best all around fighter here.



I think you should take into account the circumstances of the Pain fight. Jiraiya did reach Sage Mode, but he only opted to even transform in the first place because he was aware of how dangerous the Rinnegan was. In this case, against somebody like the 3rd Raikage, he might get caught in close quarters combat by the Biju-wrestler before he even knows he needs Sage Mode to win.

Furthermore, Jiraiya made it to Sage Mode when fighting only Animal Path. It wasn't like he was successfully avoiding an assault from all six bodies there. Cerberus may be a powerful summon, but the Gama Toads don't possess the ability to defend against Sandaime's heightened speed & Nukite like they do the Cerberus's fangs.

I think it's safe to say that Jiraiya doesn't make it past the 3rd Raikage without proper knowledge. He's fast enough to run Jman down as long as Jiraiya doesn't hide from the get-go, and he shouldn't given the conditions.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think you should take into account the circumstances of the Pain fight. Jiraiya did reach Sage Mode, but he only opted to even transform in the first place because he was aware of how dangerous the Rinnegan was. In this case, against somebody like the 3rd Raikage, he might get caught in close quarters combat by the Biju-wrestler before he even knows he needs Sage Mode to win.
> .


Essentially it all comes down to plot. What moves does his enemy start with, what moves does Jiraiya start with; that's all plot. If some of these characters pull a perfect game they could certainly kill Jiriaya before he reaches Sennin Modo, but most of the time the plot does not allow someone to play the perfect games we can imagine. The plot is more likely to be on Jiriaya's side in most if not all of these instances due to his plot importance and the love Kishi has for the character.

That's pretty much all there is too it as none of these characters are reallt powerful enough where everything or even a large margin of everything they do will own Jiriaya very quickly.



> Furthermore, Jiraiya made it to Sage Mode when fighting only Animal Path. It wasn't like he was successfully avoiding an assault from all six bodies there. Cerberus may be a powerful summon, but the Gama Toads don't possess the ability to defend against Sandaime's heightened speed & Nukite like they do the Cerberus's fangs.


This is a misconception, Jiraiya fought Pain. Pain didn't use his best stuff right out the gate, but most of the time that's how battles in Naruto and manga at large go.



> I think it's safe to say that Jiraiya doesn't make it past the 3rd Raikage without proper knowledge. He's fast enough to run Jman down as long as Jiraiya doesn't hide from the get-go, and he shouldn't given the conditions.


Honestly the fact that Temari and several fodder survived an extended period of time against Sandaime-Raikage is more than enough where imo there is zero doubt in my mind that Kishi would have Jiraiya last long enough to enter SM. I mean Sandaime-Raikage's opening move was not even a jutsu it was just running and attack with pure physical attacks.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

*so turrin your excuses for jiraiya survival in battledome is plot??*

thats very weak

then obviously BD matches with naruto, sasuke, sakura and every primary character are pointless then 

i guess if Ei fought his dad, plot wont allow Ei to loose. 

this is BD, cut that ish out. 

or i can turn it right back at u. the only reason those fodders survived so long against the sandaime was plot. also he was on auto defense. not attack


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Essentially it all comes down to plot. What moves does his enemy start with, what moves does Jiraiya start with; that's all plot. If some of these characters pull a perfect game they could certainly kill Jiriaya before he reaches Sennin Modo, but most of the time the plot does not allow someone to play the perfect games we can imagine. The plot is more likely to be on Jiriaya's side in most if not all of these instances due to his plot importance and the love Kishi has for the character.



There's no "plot importance" here, though. Otherwise, the OP wouldn't bother with things like knowledge, location, distance, etc. Actually, it wouldn't be in the rules to format the opening post like that, because all of that would be irrelevant. 

If a made a "v2 A vs. Base Jiraiya" thread at 5 meters with full knowledge, A would obviously win. A plot shield would keep Jiraiya from getting blitzed though, so do we say Jiraiya reaches Sage Mode and wins? I wouldn't see a point to the Battledome then.



> This is a misconception, Jiraiya fought Pain. Pain didn't use his best stuff right out the gate, but most of the time that's how battles in Naruto and manga at large go.



Eh.

Their actual title is "Six Paths of Pain." They're not portrayed to a level above Sandaime Raikage unless all six are present imo. 



> Honestly the fact that Temari and several fodder survived an extended period of time against Sandaime-Raikage is more than enough where imo there is zero doubt in my mind that Kishi would have Jiraiya last long enough to enter SM. I mean Sandaime-Raikage's opening move was not even a jutsu it was just running and attack with pure physical attacks.



A portion of a large group of people surviving against a hesitant Raikage is not the same as an individual surviving against the Raikage with no knowledge. 

For a man with physicality hyped to Bijuu-boxing levels, he's have to be rather lackluster to allow Jiraiya to get away and stall him long enough to complete the Sage ritual. 

Remember, Jiraiya doesn't have any knowledge.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There's no "plot importance" here, though. Otherwise, the OP wouldn't bother with things like knowledge, location, distance, etc. Actually, it wouldn't be in the rules to format the opening post like that, because all of that would be irrelevant.


Cool let's tell the guy whose been on the forums three times as long as yourself, what the rules of the NBD are. Simply put you are wrong. Whether you use the term plot or probability it all comes down to what each character pulls as their first, second, third, etc.. moves IC (IC is basically the code term for plot, as the characters personality and tendencies are designated by the plot). 

The conditions matter as they increase or lower odds, because they effect the amount of choices or what choices are made. Distance gives a character time to make more choices or use more moves IC. Knowledge gives them more benefit of the doubt that they will make more intelligent choices. 



> If a made a "v2 A vs. Base Jiraiya" thread at 5 meters with full knowledge, A would obviously win. A plot shield would keep Jiraiya from getting blitzed though, so do we say Jiraiya reaches Sage Mode and wins? I wouldn't see a point to the Battledome then.


No the plot would probably not have it be IC for Ei to immediately start w/ his top speed right from the jump. 

If you make biased enough conditions anyone can win against anyone, except against people whose defense are so high that they literally can't be killed by the other individual, but here the conditions are not skewed to that extent, so plot still matters heavily here.



> Their actual title is "Six Paths of Pain." They're not portrayed to a level above Sandaime Raikage unless all six are present imo.


And actually it's all Nagato. So Jiraiya fought Nagato, who simply did not use anywhere close to his full power at the start of the match. But again how is that different from most matches in the manga. Hebi-Sasuke starts a battle with a Shunshin and basic sword strike, that also is nowhere close to his full power (Kirin). Sasori starts a battle with Hiroku, that's nowhere close to his full power of 100 puppets or Sandaime-Kazekage. And so on. The Pain fight is no different, and it's just something that is largely IC for the Naruto world characters.



> A portion of a large group of people surviving against a hesitant Raikage is not the same as an individual surviving against the Raikage with no knowledge.


Wait why was Raikage hesitant lol, come on now, that's just silly. And when that single person is much stronger than that entire group, it's not the same, he actually has better odds.



> For a man with physicality hyped to Bijuu-boxing levels, he's have to be rather lackluster to allow Jiraiya to get away and stall him long enough to complete the Sage ritual.


Raikage was casually boxing a Bijuu, no he did not. He took on a Bijuu with his RNY and strongest technique, as well as god knows what else. Base-Jiraiya isn't lasting long against RNY-One-Fonger Nukite-Raikge, but Raikage starting with that is not very likely plot wise (or if you prefer IC). Likely he will start with just basic physical punches and kicks, not even RNY, something i'm extremely confident Jiraiya can handle.


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Cool let's tell the guy whose been on the forums three times as long as yourself, what the rules of the NBD are. Simply put you are wrong.



 

First off, I don't give a shit how long you've been on the forum. A person who's been on this board for a decade could still could still not understand how it works, which you seem to be proving, day in and day out. 

Secondly, I'm not wrong. It is in the rules:



			
				Rules said:
			
		

> 5. Post all required information, including location, starting distance, and knowledge.



Thirdly, I see you didn't pick up on how to correctly format a sentence during your time here. 




> No the plot would probably not have it be IC for Ei to immediately start w/ his top speed right from the jump.



Nor would the plot call for Jiraiya to engage the 3rd Raikage without knowledge in an abandoned town at specifically 45 meters.

Why don't you get with the program and realize that Kishimoto isn't writing this fight. Kishimoto's "love of the character" is irrelevant. 



> If you make biased enough conditions anyone can win against anyone, except against people whose defense are so high that they literally can't be killed by the other individual, but here the conditions are not skewed to that extent, so plot still matters heavily here.



So you admit that the circumstances affect the outcome. Okay.

The conditions make it so that Sandaime Raikage will kill Jiraiya before he reaches Sage Mode. 



> And actually it's all Nagato. So Jiraiya fought Nagato, who simply did not use anywhere close to his full power at the start of the match. But again how is that different from most matches in the manga.



Sure.

What Nagato began with is nowhere near what the Raikage will start with, so Jiraiya reaching Sage Mode against a fraction of Nagato's power becomes irrelevant.

Oh, and I should note that Jiraiya only went into Sage Mode because of the Rinnegan. 



> Wait why was Raikage hesitant lol, come on now, that's just silly. And when that single person is much stronger than that entire group, it's not the same, he actually has better odds.



He's focused on killing Jiraiya here, so the fact that the fodder he didn't target survived against him in the war is irrelevant. 

Unless you're saying that the 3rd tried and actually failed to kill a specific fodder nin for an extended period of time.



> Raikage was casually boxing a Bijuu, no he did not. He took on a Bijuu with his RNY and strongest technique, as well as god knows what else. Base-Jiraiya isn't lasting long against RNY-One-Fonger Nukite-Raikge, but Raikage starting with that is not very likely plot wise (or if you prefer IC). Likely he will start with just basic physical punches and kicks, not even RNY, something i'm extremely confident Jiraiya can handle.



The Raikage wouldn't start with the 1 Finger Nukite, but he will with RCM in my opinion. We've never seen him fight without it, so IC tendency would dictate he open with it.

It's laughable that you think Jiraiya going to opt for Sage Mode against anything less anyway. If Sandaime Raikage's done something that would prompt Jiraiya's trump, whatever it is is going to kill him.


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## Turrin (Mar 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Secondly, I'm not wrong. It is in the rules:.


That literally has nothing, zero, zilch, nada to do with speaking towards "plot". So next time you want to put on your big boy pants and try to talk down to me about how the forums work, try and actually cite something relevant.



> Thirdly, I see you didn't pick up on how to correctly format a sentence during your time here.


See here's the difference between you and I, i'm doing multiple other things while discussing this stuff with you, while your putting your all into it and still managing to ramble off topic.



> Nor would the plot call for Jiraiya to engage the 3rd Raikage without knowledge in an abandoned town at specifically 45 meters.


And your point is what? I never discounted any of these factors. You just said I did, and than went on a rant. And now you proceed to rant, w/o actually addressing my point about these factors.



> Why don't you get with the program and realize that Kishimoto isn't writing this fight. Kishimoto's "love of the character" is irrelevant.


Than your not talking about the Naruto-manga. You are talking about fanfiction incarnations of Jiriaya and Raikage. For accuracy sake you should really change it to Jirayo and Sandaime Rokage, so people are aware this shit is all fanfiction on your part.

But to put it in terms that may be easier for you to understand. Whenever anyone discusses IC in the NBD they are discussing how much Kishi "loves the character". Kishi's love for the character determines how effectively the character uses his/her abilities and responds to the enemies abilities in battle. 



> So you admit that the circumstances affect the outcome. Okay.


Never said they didn't, you just ranted on it for no reason.



> The conditions make it so that Sandaime Raikage will kill Jiraiya before he reaches Sage Mode.


This is so hilarious to me, you mouth off about how i'm evaluating conditions and than you turn around say conditions favor the Raikage. 

No knowledge has pluses and minuses for both of them.

Raikage is a Short-Range fighter primarily, and the range is Long
Raikage lacks any sensing or detection and the settings is one where LOS is blocked

Jiraiya is effective at all ranges and he has detection skills

Yet, some how the conditions favor the Raikage, Rocky please.

To me the plot or if you prefer what each choose to use is more important than the conditions in this instance, but if anyone is advantage by the conditions it would be Jiriaya, especially when it comes to achieving SM as he can quickly slip outside of Sandaime-Raikage's LOS and hide to set up SM; against someone w/ zero detection skills that is an enormous advantage when it comes to prepping a specific technique.



> What Nagato began with is nowhere near what the Raikage will start with, so Jiraiya reaching Sage Mode against a fraction of Nagato's power becomes irrelevant.


Casually charing w/o RNY and throwing a few normal attacks which only succeeded in killing like 2 Fodder is better than an animated corpse puppet with one of the Rinnegan's powers:
fodderized by BM Naruto with no Sage Mode enhancement.

Again, Rocky please.

What Nagato started with is better than what Sandaime-Raikage started with, which only makes sense as Nagato is much stronger than Sandaime.



> Oh, and I should note that Jiraiya only went into Sage Mode because of the Rinnegan.


Cool that was the reason against Pain. There are plenty of reason that could incite him going SM against Raikage.



> He's focused on killing Jiraiya here, so the fact that the fodder he didn't target survived against him in the war is irrelevant.


He was bloodlusted to kill them all in the war. So he was targetting them all. Not to mention Temari and others were on the front line and they survived. The reason they survived is Sandaime didn't pull out anywhere near his best shit at battle start, and that is exactly the same reason Jiraiya would survive until he reached SM.



> he Raikage wouldn't start with the 1 Finger Nukite, but he will with RCM in my opinion.


That's cool considering both times he went to join the frey in the war, he didn't use RNY as his first move.

Not that Jiraiya couldn't deal with RNY-Raikage anyway. It's Raikage's top speed, hellbringer, and potentially Kurokaminari that would be issues for Jiriaya obtaining SM.



> We've never seen him fight without it, so IC tendency would dictate he open with it


Yes, yes we have



> It's laughable that you think Jiraiya going to opt for Sage Mode against anything less anyway


I think Jiraiya could opt for SM based on other abilities demonstrating Raikage to be Kage-class even w/o RNY. But even if Sandaime uses RNY, I don't think that alone is stopping SM.



> . If Sandaime Raikage's done something that would prompt Jiraiya's trump, whatever it is is going to kill him.


Cool, and i'll just say Jiraiya feeling Raikage's killing intent alone would tip him off to needing SM (Just like Kakashi felt Orochi's threat from killing intent), so he'll opt for SM a few seconds after the match starts.

But when actually talking about not thee most ideal scenario for each character; ultimately how each acts comes down to what's IC, which is a product of plot, hence my original point.


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## Rocky (Mar 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That literally has nothing, zero, zilch, nada to do with speaking towards "plot". So next time you want to put on your big boy pants and try to talk down to me about how the forums work, try and actually cite something relevant.



Well, the only thing I said regarding the rules was:

_"Actually, it wouldn't be in the rules to format the opening post like that, because all of that would be irrelevant." _

...to which you responded with:

_"Cool let's tell the guy whose been on the forums three times as long as yourself, what the *rules *of the NBD are."_

...leading me to believe you didn't know what the rules were. So what I actually sited was pretty relevant. 



> See here's the difference between you and I, i'm doing multiple other things while discussing this stuff with you, while your putting your all into it and still managing to ramble off topic.



Dude, I just woke up from a nap. 

Trust me, I don't put "my all" into anything Naruto related. 



> Kishi's love for the character determines how effectively the character uses his/her abilities and responds to the enemies abilities in battle.





Unless your definition of Kishimoto's love is "how well a character performs in battle," then you would be wrong. Favoritism towards a character has nothing to do with battle efficiency. It's based on things like experience and intelligence.



> Yet, some how the conditions favor the Raikage, Rocky please.



The conditions "favor" the third Raikage to ultimately win the fight because there is no prior information, meaning no incentive for Jiraiya to run away and enter Sage Mode. Therefore, Jiraiya will engage A in Base and die, because Sandaime Raikage can step up his game far more easily than Jiraiya can.

Distance is irrelevant without knowledge (it will only be closed), and the location is only extra useful to Jiraiya should he opt to transform, which he won't, in my opinion. 



> To me the plot or if you prefer what each choose to use is more important than the conditions in this instance...



What does this even mean? More important...?

What each character chooses to use is _dependent_ upon the fabricated conditions of the battle. The most important stipulation in determining what will happen is knowledge. 



> Casually charing w/o RNY and throwing a few normal attacks which only succeeded in killing like 2 Fodder is better than an animated corpse puppet with one of the Rinnegan's powers:
> It can be swallowed by a boss summon (which is smaller than a Biju)
> 
> What Nagato started with is better than what Sandaime-Raikage started with, which only makes sense as Nagato is much stronger than Sandaime.



If we're being that literal, then no, I'll take the 3rd ? even in Base ? over the lobster Pain used on Jiraiya.



> The reason they survived is Sandaime didn't pull out anywhere near his best shit at battle start, and that is exactly the same reason Jiraiya would survive until he reached SM.



Let's put it this way; if what the 3rd Raikage is doing is below the level required to kill the Temaris of the world, then Jiraiya isn't transforming into his heightened form. 

I feel that your argument is better suited for a full knowledge scenario.



> I think Jiraiya could opt for SM based on other abilities demonstrating Raikage to be Kage-class even w/o RNY. But even if Sandaime uses RNY, I don't think that alone is stopping SM.



Who said just being Kage class is enough to incite Sage Mode?



> But when actually talking about not thee most ideal scenario for each character; ultimately how each acts comes down to what's IC, which is a product of plot, hence my original point.



How a character will perform at the start of a fight is determined by its conditions. Importance to the storyline is utterly irrelevant in a battle that doesn't take place within the Naruto continuity. 

Your other point was that Jiraiya would reach Sage Mode due to him reaching it against Pain, but since that fight had completely different circumstances, that fact doesn't mean anything to me.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2015)

sorry why wont the raikage start with Raiton chakra mode??

its the basis of his fighting style. kabuto was controlling him and he was on auto defense. the first techique he actually used was nikute. 4 finger nikute is more than enough to kill jiriaya


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well, the only thing I said regarding the rules was:



Now let's include the entire context:



Turrin said:


> Essentially it all comes down to plot. What moves does his enemy start with, what moves does Jiraiya start with; that's all plot. If some of these characters pull a perfect game they could certainly kill Jiriaya before he reaches Sennin Modo, but most of the time the plot does not allow someone to play the perfect games we can imagine. The plot is more likely to be on Jiriaya's side in most if not all of these instances due to his plot importance and the love Kishi has for the character.





Rocky said:


> There's no "plot importance" here, though. Otherwise, the OP wouldn't bother with things like knowledge, location, distance, etc. Actually, it wouldn't be in the rules to format the opening post like that, because all of that would be irrelevant.
> .



You were arguing that someone can't use "plot" as an argument in the NBD, and than tried to cite rules about location, distance, etc.. for why that is the case. I said i'm very well aware of the rules being on here much longer than you, and then went onto explain why the rules your citing did not prevent "plot" from being discussed in the NBD. 

After that you shifted your argument to just that the rule exists. I know the rule exists Rocky, but _"Simply put you are wrong"_ in your usage of the rule to argue _"there's no "plot importance" here"_. So once again please do not _"tell the guy whose been on the forums three times as long as yourself, what the rules of the NBD are"_, i'm aware of the rules and none of them make it so _"there's no "plot importance" here"_.



> Dude, I just woke up from a nap.
> 
> Trust me, I don't put "my all" into anything Naruto related.


I find this hard to believe, considering you clearly expect others to do so, when playing the role of grammar stickler.



> Unless your definition of Kishimoto's love is "how well a character performs in battle," then you would be wrong. Favoritism towards a character has nothing to do with battle efficiency. It's based on things like experience and intelligence.


My definition of Kishi's love, is how much he values a character in that specific instance of the plot. Basically when two closely matched characters fight, it's going to come down to how effectively they utilize their moves IC. Kishi decides what is IC for each character in the series, and therefore if he wants one character whose is close to another to win, he will just have it be IC for that character to utilize his moves more effectively than the other character.

Saying things like exp and intelligence are what decide battle efficiency is naive. There are plenty of times when a character outplays and use their abilities more efficiently than a more intelligent and experienced character.



> The conditions "favor" the third Raikage to ultimately win the fight because there is no prior information, meaning no incentive for Jiraiya to run away and enter Sage Mode. Therefore, Jiraiya will engage A in Base and die, because Sandaime Raikage can step up his game far more easily than Jiraiya can.


Or because there is no information, there is no incentive for Sandaime-Raikage to start out with anything that is a major threat to Jiriaya, and Jiraiya will notice Raikage's skills and the need for SM, before Sandaime starts fighting hard enough where Jiraiya couldn't reach SM.



> Distance is irrelevant without knowledge (it will only be closed), and the location is only extra useful to Jiraiya should he opt to transform, which he won't, in my opinion.


And as Sandaime tries to close it Jiriaya attacks him with his various long-range Jutsu revealing Sandaime's threat, and than he goes SM.



> What each character chooses to use is dependent upon the fabricated conditions of the battle. The most important stipulation in determining what will happen is knowledge.


Partly it's dependent on those conditions, but not completely. The characters personalities and the way they react to specific situations is most of the time more important than conditions, and that's all IC.



> If we're being that literal, then no, I'll take the 3rd – even in Base – over the lobster Pain used on Jiraiya.


Nagato first move was to pull out Animal Realm in general. Animal Realm in general > Sandaime's Base attacks which only killed a few fodder.



> Let's put it this way; if what the 3rd Raikage is doing is below the level required to kill the Temaris of the world, then Jiraiya isn't transforming into his heightened form


This is flawed reasoning. Sandaime didn't put up a great enough offense at first to slaughter all the people on the front lines, like Temari, but his defense was still very much intact and after he no selled a few moves, despite them withstanding his offense they still acknowledge him as a huge threat due to his defense. The same exact thing can happen with Jiriaya. He throws out offensive moves that Base Jriaya can handle, but than once Jiraiya see's the dude no sell a Rasengan, Gama Yu Endan, or whatever, he could easily opt for SM, despite Raikage not offering anything offensively yet that is life threatening.



> Who said just being Kage class is enough to incite Sage Mode?


Who said it wasn't. We literally do not know how Jiriaya IC evaluates the usage of SM, because he only fought one strong enemy in the entire manga where he wasn't handicapped in some fashion (pain) and there he used SM. 

That's why J-man matches where he needs SM, boil down to plot even more than others, as basically it will be what's in the best interest for the plot, whether Kishimoto allows Jiriaya to opt for and reached SM IC.



> Your other point was that Jiraiya would reach Sage Mode due to him reaching it against Pain, but since that fight had completely different circumstances, that fact doesn't mean anything to me.


The circumstances were different:

1) Nagato is much stronger than Sandaime
2) Nagato's opening move Animal-Realm > Sandaime's shown openings moves
3) Nagato had locational advantage and initiative on his side. It was his city and he came there to fight Jiriaya, unlike Jiraiya who initially wished to avoid a fight

Even still Kishi had Jiriaya obtain SM against Nagato. Now your telling me that in a situation where Jiraiya is fighting a weaker enemy and with much more favorable conditions, he's going to fail to achieve SM. And the reason is because you've only considered a single scenario in your mind where everything goes exactly as you believe it will. 

Sandaime closes the distance w/o tipping off Jiraiya to his strength. Sandaime ether immediately starts using top moves or nothing about Sandaime ever tips Jiriaya off until he starts using top moves. Than Jiriaya is caught off guard completely by the sudden burst in strength, w/ no KB, smoke-bombs, traps, or summons having been pulled out during the beginning of the battle to help him survive long enough to escape in a poor LOS location, against an enemy who has no detection abilities besides his vision and hearing.

You assume all of this w/o once citing a source for how Raikage actually acted in the manga cannon.

So let me help you out here. After Raikage used RNY he stood there doing nothing for 2 pages:
1
1

That is more than enough time for Base-Jiraiya to drop a smoke bomb and escape Sandaime's LOS in this location. 

When Sandaime powers up RNY and Hell Bringer against Naruto, he also just stands there at first:
1

Than when he charged them, even fodder were able to react to that level of charge to cast Jutsu:
1

Again this is more than enough time for Jiraiya to react and escape away for SM.

Than after Raikage plowed through the wall he is again standing the fuck around for multiple pages:
1
1

Than when he charges Naruto fricking Dodai reacted to his attack in time to avoid it:
1

Jiraiya certainly will also react.

Sandaime unless pushed is not an ultra aggressive fighter, and IC he gives plenty of openings for someone like Jiriaya to escape to reach SM. The location only makes things that much worse.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

sandaime was being controlled by kabuto initially to just defend. its only after FRS that dodai clearly notices his eyes changed. after that he went full blitz nikute broke the wall and went for naruto. 
i dont see how thats not aggresive 

 dodai was never the target. kabuto couldnt care less about dodai. in this match up the raikage would very much care about jiriaya not the same thing at all


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## Turrin (Mar 25, 2015)

^
So he was only there to defend, yet he blatantly attacked before that point. That makes no sense. He got more serious when Naruto proved to be a major threat after merking him w/ FRS. Even still he didn't go all out initially as he still stood around at times and Fodder and Dodai were still reacting to him; doesn't matter if Dodai wasn't the target he still saw Raikage movements, followed them, and had time to cast a jutsu to save Naruto. If Dodai and Fodder can do that, I see a serious issue with expecting Jiriaya to be completely murder stomped before he can reach SM, and the location/distance just makes this even more of a fantasy.


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## Icegaze (Mar 26, 2015)

Turrin said:


> ^
> So he was only there to defend, yet he blatantly attacked before that point. That makes no sense. He got more serious when Naruto proved to be a major threat after merking him w/ FRS. Even still he didn't go all out initially as he still stood around at times and Fodder and Dodai were still reacting to him; doesn't matter if Dodai wasn't the target he still saw Raikage movements, followed them, and had time to cast a jutsu to save Naruto. If Dodai and Fodder can do that, I see a serious issue with expecting Jiriaya to be completely murder stomped before he can reach SM, and the location/distance just makes this even more of a fantasy.



you are right. sandaime by default doesnt use cloak immediately. do note however thats because he didnt feel the need 2. like u said he was fighting fodders. 
jiraiya isnt fodder nor would he be mistaken for one. 

all am saying is pulling off frog song in an open field is far from easy. considering it took a chapter for jiriaya to pull it off while he had the benefit of being able to hide. while being pressured and his attacks tanked its unlikely he would be able to pull such off


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## Turrin (Mar 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you are right. sandaime by default doesnt use cloak immediately. do note however thats because he didnt feel the need 2. like u said he was fighting fodders.
> jiraiya isnt fodder nor would he be mistaken for one.


But they have no knowledge of each other, so how does Sandaime know Jiriaya isn't Fodder or Temari/Dodai "level"? I suppose you could argue that he can feel Jiriaya's killing intent like Kakashi felt Orochimaru's and realize Jiriaya's threat "level" that way, but than Jiraiya should also be able to do the same and know to opt for SM.



> all am saying is pulling off frog song in an open field is far from easy. considering it took a chapter for jiriaya to pull it off while he had the benefit of being able to hide. while being pressured and his attacks tanked its unlikely he would be able to pull such off



1) Sandaime can't hit Jiraiya, due danger sensing.
2) It isn't an open field it's an abandoned town
3) Jiriaya can still cast Jutsu and fight effectively; Ma/Pa are the only ones needed for the song


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## DavyChan (Mar 27, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Last resort is a plot based argument. In the manga people only use their jutsu when they need to use them. Other than suicide moves or highly chakra taxing moves, every jutsu can be used when one wants, in a battle simulation. Kamui is chakra taxing for Kakashi, but it's clear that if he feels he have to use it he will use it. He can use it quickly, it's not like he has to enter some special mode, or something, so there isn't any problem, at least against opponent of this level.
> 
> Or Kakashi would just use a clone after another, and then warp away the Raikage. Or simply use Kamui from the start and call it a day.



Kakashi wasn't strong until the super boost. Please deal with that by now.

I hope you understand that like 60 episodes into shippuden and kakashi already said naruto surpassed him.

Byakugou Sakura is stronger than kage summit Kakashi. please get this. And please change ur avie.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

Turrin said:


> But they have no knowledge of each other, so how does Sandaime know Jiriaya isn't Fodder or Temari/Dodai "level"? I suppose you could argue that he can feel Jiriaya's killing intent like Kakashi felt Orochimaru's and realize Jiriaya's threat "level" that way, but than Jiraiya should also be able to do the same and know to opt for SM.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sm naruto got danger sensing yet has been hit more than once. Sm madara got danger sensing yet has been hit more than once. 

sensing doesnt mean auto dodge 

worse is jiraiya<<<<<<,Sm  naruto in everything sage mode. so thats utter BS. its impossible for jiriaya not to get hit dont make things up. 

Ma and pa got hit. where was their danger sensing then???  

like jiraiya got no feats at all or even statements to suggest he can do what naruto did. jiraiya is by far the weakest sage mode user. knwoing how to use frog katas which is a C rank technique is hardly impressive. jiriaya SM was still very much imperfect

ok so what jutsu does jiraiya have that are remotely effective at slowing the raikage down while they are prepping frog song. 

name 2. please or one even 2 is impossible


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sm naruto got danger sensing yet has been hit more than once. Sm madara got danger sensing yet has been hit more than once.


Not by Sandaime. Against Sandaime, Naruto not only dodged his best attack, but had the ability to wait till the last second to do so as well as perfectly time a counter attack. If danger sensing allows someone to troll Sandaime so extensively, the chances of Sandaime landing a hit are slim to none.



> orse is jiraiya<<<<<<,Sm naruto in everything sage mode. so thats utter BS. its impossible for jiriaya not to get hit dont make things up.


Please quote where the manga says Naruto's Sennin Modo is better at everything? Your literally making that up. All the manga cites is that Naruto is better at balancing the three energies hence no Toad features, which means he can make Senjutsu-Chakra more efficiently. I repeat nowhere in the manga does anyone say Naruto's Sennin Modo offers him larger boost than Jiriaya's or his perks like Sensing are better. In-fact this is directly contradicted by DBIV, that specifically cites Jiriaya as being capable of the same exact Frog Katas, which entails using danger sensing to avoid the enemies attacks and land a counter.



> Ma and pa got hit. where was their danger sensing then???


Such as



> like jiraiya got no feats at all or even statements to suggest he can do what naruto did.


The DB states he can.



> knwoing how to use frog katas which is a C rank technique is hardly impressive. jiriaya SM was still very much imperfect


All of this is irrelevant to the fact that he can indeed use Frog Katas.



> ok so what jutsu does jiraiya have that are remotely effective at slowing the raikage down while they are prepping frog song.


Doesn't have to even slow him down, he can just casually evade Sandiame's attacks until Frog-Song goes off. 

However besides that he can just throw down an LOS blocker and escape into the abandoned buildings in this location. Since Sandaime has no way to find him, he's basically fucked after that. He can also hide in Toad Gourd Barrier seal until the song is complete.

Not that I think he really even needs Frog-Song, as Shima and Fusaku are almost guaranteed to have other Genjutsu that are not as ridiculous as Frog-Song, and since they aren't up against the Rinnegan, here a less Genjutsu would be more than enough. Though I know feat whores won't accept this, so whatever.r


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## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Not by Sandaime. Against Sandaime, Naruto not only dodged his best attack, but had the ability to wait till the last second to do so as well as perfectly time a counter attack. If danger sensing allows someone to troll Sandaime so extensively, the chances of Sandaime landing a hit are slim to none.



and jiriaya has never avoided anyone close to sandaime speed  



> Please quote where the manga says Naruto's Sennin Modo is better at everything? Your literally making that up. All the manga cites is that Naruto is better at balancing the three energies hence no Toad features, which means he can make Senjutsu-Chakra more efficiently. I repeat nowhere in the manga does anyone say Naruto's Sennin Modo offers him larger boost than Jiriaya's or his perks like Sensing are better. In-fact this is directly contradicted by DBIV, that specifically cites Jiriaya as being capable of the same exact Frog Katas, which entails using danger sensing to avoid the enemies attacks and land a counter.



perhaps when kishi mentioned naruto *PERFECTED!!!* the bloody technique. go google the definition of perfect please. yes naruto is better at perfecting the jutsu jiriaya uses. 
Naruto showed he had more physical strength 
showed greater physical speed (you know the stuff that allows you to dodge) 

also after the frog katas sparing he has with Pa, Pa said this boy has surpassed jiriaya 


Also note his approach with sandaime was him dodging once thanks to specific knowledge. dodging once doesnt remotely mean you can always do it. its silly to assume that. 
where was it ever stated sandaime could never hit naruto ?




> Such as



Shinra tensei 
bansho tenin 

Where was danger sensing


> The DB states he can.



am sure he can but not as well as someone who perfected the jutsu. Or i might as well just give 3rd raikage Ei speed then since u know we handing out feats to make a point



> All of this is irrelevant to the fact that he can indeed use Frog Katas.



which did not make SM naruto immune to being hit. 



> Doesn't have to even slow him down, he can just casually evade Sandiame's attacks until Frog-Song goes off.



nice fan fiction. naruto evaded 1 attack, now suddenly a less perfect version can do so casually while sandaime is repeatedly trying to end him. dont you think sandaime would learn and adapt 



> However besides that he can just throw down an LOS blocker and escape into the abandoned buildings in this location. Since Sandaime has no way to find him, he's basically fucked after that. He can also hide in Toad Gourd Barrier seal until the song is complete.



oh kk so he has to run away 
sandaime has no way to find him hmmm really????  
the frogs are basically croaking giving away their location  thats a *STATED!!!* weakness of the technique. it reveals ur location. 



> Not that I think he really even needs Frog-Song, as Shima and Fusaku are almost guaranteed to have other Genjutsu that are not as ridiculous as Frog-Song, and since they aren't up against the Rinnegan, here a less Genjutsu would be more than enough. Though I know feat whores won't accept this, so whatever.r



and sandaime has black lightning and other ninjutsu. to throw jiriaya off avoiding him. 

lol am far from a feat whore. but if u going to do hand me downs, it must be done equally. 

they got more genjutsu fair enough. sandaime got more speed than was displayed and can use black lightning


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## Turrin (Mar 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> and jiriaya has never avoided anyone close to sandaime speed


He doesn't have to. Jiriaya's capabilities in speed are not a unknown. We have very in depth information about his speed. 4.5 in Base [DBIII], we've seen Sennin Modo's increase to speed, and we've seen Frog-Kata's danger-sensing increase's to speed. There is no unknown quantity here that necessitates "feats'.

Base-Naruto's speed is a tier less than Jiraiya's. According to Tobirama clones are slower than the original, and Naruto had already created at least 12 other clones. Dat-Clone with the same Sennin Modo and Frog Katas increases Jiraiya is capable off, was able to evade Sandaime's best hit at the last second, as well as counter. Given the information we have there should be no doubt that Jiriaya is capable of this.



> perhaps when kishi mentioned naruto PERFECTED!!! the bloody technique. go google the definition of perfect please. yes naruto is better at perfecting the jutsu jiriaya uses.


Kishi explained what perfecting the technique meant; which is achieving a more efficient balance of the three energies. Never once does Kishi say having slightly less Toad features gives Naruto tremendously greater boosts than Jiriaya, in anything other than efficiency. Maybe Naruto has slightly higher boosts than Jiriaya (though the manga doesn't state anything like that), because of this efficiency, but Base-Jiriaya has much better physical stats pre-SM, so at the absolute best this should balance out, at the worst Jiraiya still has the edge.

I understood when people used to argue that only a perfect Sage could master Frog Katas and gain access to sensing, because back then it could be argued that these were the highest order Toad-Senjutsu techniques, that required absolute perfect balancing of the three energies to achieve. However DBIV shuts that down by not only revealing it to be a mere C-Rank Technique for a Sage to master, but outright stating Jiriaya has learned the technique.



> Naruto showed he had more physical strength
> showed greater physical speed (you know the stuff that allows you to dodge)


No he did not.

Jiriaya and Naruto have no means for direct comparison in ether of these areas outside of their performance against Pain and DB-Stats. Against Pain Jiriaya was clearly much faster than the bodies individually as was Naruto, and both tossed around Boss-Summons like nothing as well as demonstrating far greater physical strength than individual paths. In terms of Stats Base-Jiriaya is entire tiers ahead of Base-Naruto in these areas, again if you want to say the small difference in SM somehow made up these difference fine (though I even find that dubious as were talking entire tiers), but there is no evidence that difference in SM would push Naruto from being very much inferior to Jiriaya into these areas, to being vastly superior.



> also after the frog katas sparing he has with Pa, Pa said this boy has surpassed jiriaya


No he doesn't. But anyway, it's clear Naruto surpassed Jiriaya in SM, you are just mistaken about the reason.



> Also note his approach with sandaime was him dodging once thanks to specific knowledge. dodging once doesnt remotely mean you can always do it.


He didn't need knowledge to evade. He needed knowledge to know to use Sandaime's attack against him.



> its silly to assume that.
> where was it ever stated sandaime could never hit naruto ?


It doesn't have to be stated, Naruto evaded Sandaime's best attack at the last second. If you can wait to the last second to evade someone's attack, obviously their speed is nothing to you. Does that mean someone could never hit you, of course not, because there are things like blindsides and surprise attacks, but those are next to impossible to execute because SM-Naruto has his danger sensing. Sandaime being a very straight-forward fighter, stands no chance at this outside off Amber-Sealing Jar.



> Where was danger sensing


How would Danger-Sensing help them against an invisible force that can't be evaded. If Sandaime had a Jutsu like that, than we could talk, but he doesn't.



> am sure he can but not as well as someone who perfected the jutsu. Or i might as well just give 3rd raikage Ei speed then since u know we handing out feats to make a point


Naruto perfected Sennin Modo more than Jiriaya, not Frog Katas. Two totally different techniques. Frog Katas being a mere C-Rank, there is no good reason to assert Jiraiya's skills in it were insufficient. 

When it comes to EI's speed versus Sandaime's, that's not merely an issue of who is better at 	Raiton Chakura Mōdo, it's also an issue of physical speed/reflexes. Ei is probably faster than Sandaime not because Ei is a million times better at a B-Rank Technique Sandaime's used had for years, but because Ei's base reflexes are already hyped as match for the Yellow-Flash, and thus probably better than Sandaime's.

In the case of Jiraiya we know his base speed and reflexes are an entire tier better than Base-Naruto. Supposedly clones are even slower than the original to some unknown degree, so potentially the gap between Base-Jiriaya and Dat-Clone is even larger than that.



> which did not make SM naruto immune to being hit.


By techniques that were more effective at achieving that than Sandaimes or characters much faster than Sandaime.



> sandaime has no way to find him hmmm really????
> the frogs are basically croaking giving away their location  thats a STATED!!! weakness of the technique. it reveals ur location.


I was talking about while charging the song. After the song his charged, he'll here them, but than he only has a few seconds to stop the song, while Jiriaya is fully prepped out to delay him those few seconds. 



> nd sandaime has black lightning and other ninjutsu. to throw jiriaya off avoiding him.


Problem is I don't see how any of the things Sandaime could have would be any better at hitting a Sage. Darui's Black Panther isn't going to have better odds of hitting a sage than Sandaime's max-speed hellbringer charge; for example.



> hey got more genjutsu fair enough. sandaime got more speed than was displayed and can use black lightning


That's not fair. I'm saying Fusaku and Shima as Genjutsu masters have lesser Genjutsu than the strongest one they've shown; not that they have stronger Genjutsu. You on the other hand are saying Sandaime has greater speed than the best he's shown. You should see the difference. 

Though even assuming Sandaime had a bit better speed than what he showed, what's the difference really going to be? That Jiraiya instead of being able to wait till the very last second and still casually evade, has to now casually evade right away? It's irrelevant as Jiriaya will still be dancing circles around Sandaime, unless Sandaime can boost his speed in an absolutely enormous fashion, which goes into the realm of biased assumptions for the reasons I outlined above.

As for blacklighting i'm sure Sandaime can use it, but I don't see how it helps him here as I don't see what part of it's mechanics is really going to allow Sandaime to overcome Jiriaya's skills.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

> Turrin said:
> 
> 
> > He doesn't have to. Jiriaya's capabilities in speed are not a unknown. We have very in depth information about his speed. 4.5 in Base [DBIII], we've seen Sennin Modo's increase to speed, and we've seen Frog-Kata's danger-sensing increase's to speed. There is no unknown quantity here that necessitates "feats'.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

nope. other faster genjutsu= faster speed for sandaime. simple as that 
lol still casually evade my ass. yet he couldnt evade asura ripping his arm off. stick to feats please. to run circles round someone u have to be physically faster than the person. jiraiya got nothing to indicate he is. Even SM naruto isnt faster than the sandaime. and Sm naruto never even attempted to make it sound liek he could run circles round the raikage. 

its silly but u are trying to put SM jiraiya above SM naruto despite kishi telling u blatantly otherwise



> As for blacklighting i'm sure Sandaime can use it, but I don't see how it helps him here as I don't see what part of it's mechanics is really going to allow Sandaime to overcome Jiriaya's skills.


[/QUOTE]

u dont have to be sure he can use it. kishi said he can. 

it helps him as much as imaginary genjutsu u just gave Ma and Pa which would somehow be faster than frog song and be anymore useful at paralyzing the raikage


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## Duhul10 (Mar 30, 2015)

Kishi never stated that pain arc sm naruto abillities >>>>> sm Jiraiya. He only stated that he surpassed His predecesors, of course he did, but only because he perfected it ( His only advantage: he Could enter faster in this mode). By what you are saying, because of fukasaku very unclear statement, pai arc sm naruto can shit on all the other sages ( including Minato), seriously dude, pain arc sm naruto >> Minato ( who is a perfect sage too ).
From what is shown in pain arc, only that vague statement put him over Jiraiya.
OH and Pain Said with knowledge Jiraiya would have surely beat him , but still Naruto ( with prep, all the toads, knowledge) did not do it


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Kishi never stated that pain arc sm naruto abillities >>>>> sm Jiraiya. He only stated that he surpassed His predecesors, of course he did, but only because he perfected it ( His only advantage: he Could enter faster in this mode). By what you are saying, because of fukasaku very unclear statement, pai arc sm naruto can shit on all the other sages ( including Minato), seriously dude, pain arc sm naruto >> Minato ( who is a perfect sage too ).
> From what is shown in pain arc, only that vague statement put him over Jiraiya.
> OH and Pain Said with knowledge Jiraiya would have surely beat him , but still Naruto ( with prep, all the toads, knowledge) did not do it



feel free to look up the word perfect. Minato perfected hirashin. who is the better user him or tobirama
naruto perfected rasengan can any rasengan user add an element to it?

by perfecting SM he puts himself well beyond jiraiya usage and abilities. i dont get how u dont get that

kabuto perfects ET can use 40 or more. While orochimaru was using 4. 
Tobirama couldnt even have them use jutsu. kabuto can have them use kKG
thats the difference between perfect and imperfect. 

same thing applies here, no reason why it wouldnt. 

minato isnt a perfect sage. Also please stop urself minato>>>>>>>>>>>jiraiya by a violent margin. dont bring him into this. though his sage mode is better than jiraiya's so i dont get why u would bring him up 

nagato giving his master hype. am sure u get that or rather i hope u do. 

though if we want to stick with that then. Sandaime did tie with a bijuu and is the only man to have done so. that is quite alot more rep than he could have taken out paths of pain which by naruto own admission are alot weaker than nagato himself. 

surpassed is surpassed. kishi didnt care to state how or at what. which means everything. SM naruto is simply well ahead of jiraiya who couldnt even use sage mode without toads had to spend about a chapter just to transform 
minato did the same thing in a panel. Minato was surpassed at it because he cant maintain it 

However his SM is perfect like naruto's none of that frog like features and lack of strength which even human path can catch


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2015)

Naruto is a better sage than Jiraiya. No question about it. I wouldn't even bother arguing the point here. Because the fact that Naruto is a superior sage doesn't mean Jiraiya cannot compete with the Sandaime Raikage. Sage Mode provides Jiraiya with enhanced senses and enhanced speed. Evading some of the Raikage's attacks is _possible_. And are we forgetting Sage Jiraiya has Kage Bunshin? A vision clouding Fūton that was large enough to conceal an army of toads?

Sage Jiraiya has plenty of options to create breathing room here and if he gets off Frog Song the match is over. 

The Sandaime Raikage can win this fight for sure; that's definitely a plausible outcome to anyone who isn't overly bias. But the idea that Sage Jiraiya is effortlessly taken apart here before he can do anything? Sorry, but that's laughable.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 30, 2015)

In your opinion, by that statement , fukasaku implied that pain arc sm naruto >>> sm Minato, which is not even Close to true and you seem to be a Little bit obsessed about the word " perfect ".
So let me clear this to you:
Perfect > imperfect because:
- a perfect sage cand enter in sage mode much faster than an imperfect one
- a perfect sage can enter in sage mode without the help of another sage ( in our case sage toads)
- a perfect sage does not get phisical mutations ( Jiraiya's case, even though he used this in His aid )
Yes, a perfect sage surpasses an imperfect sage because he can use it faster in battle and does not need the aid of another sage
And I am telling you again that after db4, we see that these ( noted upper ) are the only things that pain arc sm naruto has better than sm Jiraiya and a rasenshuriken which was not even Close to how he was using it in war arc ( human path had time to react and throw animal path away), but sm Jiraiya has the versatility, intelligence, agility durability ( shown by him Being smashed by the ox , mortally stabbed multiple Times, genjutsu'd , arm-ripped and still able to move, Naruto was stabbed a couple of Times in NON mortally points and was not able to move anymore ), speed ( shunshin, COR. In like a second, etc ) and more game enders than Naruto ( assuming he has ma&pa of course) : goemon completely Burns him, kebari senbon destroys Naruto's best weapon ( His clones ), gamarinshou 

Please do not make me idiot, retard etc, because i am only giving counter arguments, I have nothing personal with you, Peace
And the arguments about perfect and imperfect i gave you are sustained by Narutopedia too


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

@Duhul refer to thunder post. I entirely agree with what he said. 


An entirely unbiased post. note i never said jiraiay cant win its just a lot less likely seeing what he must go through to pull the only jutsu capable of doing anything at all to the raikage. while every jutsu the raikage has is risky for jiraiya. 

that should be the end of it.


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## Duhul10 (Mar 30, 2015)

But at least have you read what I've written, if you do not agree give counter arguments, if you have them, because the one with the ''perfect" thing does not work. Yes, Naruto even in Sm has surpassed Jiraiya even as a match-up, but this from war-arc.

About the match, under this conditions, 25 meters and OPEN field, Both have like equal chances, maybe a plus for the raikage due to His durability


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

I wouldn't describe it as equal though as thunder said anyone without blatant fan bias would see raikage winning as a possibility 

Equal is hard to sell when jiriaya must use frog song which takes time . While sandiame can use any attack 

Btw from chapter 554-555 he uses Nikute for more than just thrusting on 2 separate occasions . Dodging him isn't that easy when the range of 1 finger Nikute allowed him to cut all hachibi tail in a single thrust 

Should be obvious he can extend his range by changing fingers making it harder for jiriaya to evade

As to perfect or imperfect . As I said SM Naruto is superior the end


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2015)

No knowledge is going to be an issue for both at start battle, but less so for A considering his ridiculous durability. A can afford to get hit by Jiraiya's basic jutsu whereas Jiraiya cannot afford to hit by A too much here. Raiton coated punches, chops, and finger pokes are nothing to scoff at. 

If Jiraiya tests the waters with Frog Fu first (assuming he's got it, the databook could be counting Ma and Pa as users there), or a Rasengan, Jiraiya could take some damage from a counter attack early on. But I doubt it'll be enough to end the fight. Even base Jiraiya comes off as being durable. Plus, A has no reason to start with a one finger Nukite which is his strongest attack. 

Once Jiraiya realizes how tough A is, he'll up the ante with his higher end jutsu. I'm unsure of how effective Goemon would be. On one hand, A's obviously very durable. On the other hand, I can't picture A just wading through Goemon like it's _nothing_. At the very least Goemon prevents A from carelessly charging straight for Jiraiya like he's prone to do. Jiraiya instantly filled an entire _room_ with Goemon when he faced Pain.

Chō Ōdama Rasengan isn't going to kill A if the much stronger Fūton: Rasenshuken couldn't. However, it should still push A back and disorient him. Unless you think A just catches the thing in some DBZ-esque moment. 

Those are Jiraiya's strongest Ninjutsu. And like we saw against Pain, if Taijutsu and Ninjutsu don't work, Genjutsu is up next. 

So the outcome here depends on if you believe Jiraiya survives long enough to bust out Frog Song.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

@thunder nice post 
However nikute even the weakest version isn't something jiriaya can tank . It would punch a hole in him
Same way he can't tank raikiri or chidori attacks weaker than nikute
Do note sandaime only swapped to punch because kabuto didn't want to kill naruto . So he swapped for a KO punch 
Here no such restrictions . Jiriaya hair is nice and all but I seriously don't see how it tanks nikute. At worst 3 fingers breaches through which could mean jiriaya just died 

Goemon yes probably can't just be waltz through however  it would not damage him or slow him down. If his son isnt slowed down by amaterasu burning his hand 
Then Raikage should be just fine . 

Odama rasengan actually can be cut through by nikute however. There won't be much of a clash between the 2 . Nikute rips it open and harms jiriaya in the process

Or at the very best the 2 even clash despite how wrong that is . The explosion catches them both jiriaya suffers more damage than sandaime


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2015)

Yeah, I agree on that. Nukite was compared to Chidori and A is physically strong. Jiraiya could avoid a vital spot with his sensing, though.

I'm just unsure if A would resort to Nukite right away here with no knowledge. We don't know much about A's battle mindset since he was being controlled by Kabuto, so it's kind of hard to say how he would approach this fight. Personally, I think he'd start with basic punches or something.

It's a matter of pride. A wouldn't start with his best attack against an unknown opponent. This is a man who takes the strongest spear / shield thing very seriously. Remember, he didn't even tell his son that his shield was breached.

I don't think A could just cut the Rasengan in half (would be cool if he could), but we can both agree it wouldn't kill A.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yeah, I agree on that. Nukite was compared to Chidori and A is physically strong. Jiraiya could avoid a vital spot with his sensing, though.
> 
> I'm just unsure if A would resort to Nukite right away here with no knowledge. We don't know much about A's battle mindset since he was being controlled by Kabuto, so it's kind of hard to say how he would approach this fight. Personally, I think he'd start with basic punches or something.
> 
> ...



I understand though it sounds a little like an excuse . Him starting with punches because he is to proud to impale his opponent . I gotta disagree there . Yes he could avoid a vital spot however he would be bleeding . Means he won't have much left if he already got a hole in him 



Also why I think nikute is his weapon of choice by default is because he had no issues using it on fodders that he could spit on and kill them. Granted kabuto was controlling him . By sandaime style of ninjutsu simply isn't the same as his son . 

Yh ur right if it doesn't cut the rasengan kt has it explode which still damages jiriaya and puts jiriaya in a vulnerable situation which jiriaya can't afford to be in

It's not that a direct odama won't kill him . It wouldn't have the slightest effect . I went back to the chapters . FRS really did entirely nothing . The cracks are always there 
Itachi had them all over his face so did madara and Tobirama most ET really


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I understand though it sounds a little like an excuse . Him starting with punches because he is to proud to impale his opponent . I gotta disagree there . Yes he could avoid a vital spot however he would be bleeding . Means he won't have much left if he already got a hole in him



Jiraiya's chances of victory would plummet in that scenario, yes. Not disputing that at all. 



> Also why I think nikute is his weapon of choice by default is because he had no issues using it on fodders that he could spit on and kill them. Granted kabuto was controlling him . By sandaime style of ninjutsu simply isn't the same as his son .


Why would it be A's opening move here? It's not an excuse. In a no knowledge scenario most characters are going to start off slow and work their way up. Can A's basic punches and kicks kill some characters in this manga? Absolutely. 

Yes, Nukite was used against the alliance. Fodder, yes, but _large numbers of them_. A needed something that would put a dent in their forces. That's not the case here.

Unless you can show me how A fights when he's not being controlled, my viewpoint on the matter is just as valid as yours. 



> Yh ur right if it doesn't cut the rasengan kt has it explode which still damages jiriaya and puts jiriaya in a vulnerable situation which jiriaya can't afford to be in
> 
> It's not that a direct odama won't kill him . It wouldn't have the slightest effect . I went back to the chapters . FRS really did entirely nothing . The cracks are always there
> Itachi had them all over his face so did madara and Tobirama most ET really


Well, saying FRS did nothing is a bit of an exaggeration my friend. It did two things: it removed A's shroud and it stunned him.

I agree with you on the Edo Tensei cracks matter, though. Kishi just isn't consistent with drawing them. Madara for example was shown having cracks in some instances and not in others.

Note that I'm not trying to compare FRS to Chō Ōdama Rasengan here. But I will maintain that A would be knocked over if something like that hits him. The Rasengan is several times larger than A's body and not lacking in power. It's hyped in the databooks to "hollow out mountains". Obvious hyperbole is obvious but the message is clear: the attack is strong.


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## Icegaze (Mar 30, 2015)

Yes my friend I agree with u 100%
Your point might be as valid as mine but then if jiriaya takes a punch and doesn't drop we both know the next thing is nikute . Only a crazy person would try the same thing and expect different results 

The attack is strong it however would not damage A which gives him the advantage here also means he can directly choose to clash with it . The explosion would damage jiriaya but not Ei


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## Thunder (Mar 30, 2015)

I went to grab food. Seems like we're pretty much in agreement here, for the most part.

Definitely bro. A would start using Nukite while Jiraiya would start using  his sage jutsu once he realizes A is a physical beast (A's physique  would tip him off on that at start battle anyway). A may just overwhelm  Jiraiya with Nukite. 

As for the scenario where Jiraiya survives, I already went over this briefly in my previous posts. Stuff like , ,    and Kage Bunshin would put the pressure on A. Perhaps long enough for Jiraiya to stall for Frog  Song depending on your views. Once A is captured in the genjutsu Jiraiya  drags him into   ending the fight in a TKO.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I went to grab food. Seems like we're pretty much in agreement here, for the most part.
> 
> Definitely bro. A would start using Nukite while Jiraiya would start using  his sage jutsu once he realizes A is a physical beast (A's physique  would tip him off on that at start battle anyway). A may just overwhelm  Jiraiya with Nukite.
> 
> As for the scenario where Jiraiya survives, I already went over this briefly in my previous posts. Stuff like , ,    and Kage Bunshin would put the pressure on A. Perhaps long enough for Jiraiya to stall for Frog  Song depending on your views. Once A is captured in the genjutsu Jiraiya  drags him into   ending the fight in a TKO.





In this encounter jiriaya starts in SM to give him a better chance. i however believe if the raikage sees some weird transformed guy he should be tryign to up his game. also their first exchange would scream to him nikute must be used. All versions would work. 
What do you think about the raikage ability to change the length of his nikute. The length of it against hachibi in the flash back looks quite abit longer than the one used against naruto. stands to reason with shape manipulation he can extend it. Even if just as much as shown in the flash back which makes him that much harder to avoid

No doubt though its not impossible for frong song to land and once it lands well its effectively GG. 

if the jutsu were faster this would be an easy match for jiriaya 

 would say as a fan you are the best jiriaya fan i have found. really nice to talk to someone who can actually see both sides of the coin. 
very rare and dam near impossible to find on this forum. 

Jad for gai
you for jiraiya
godaime for tsunade
none for kakashi 

What i think most people like to forget when being fans is what ninja is suited to fight the other and what are their weaknesses 
for example despite being in the same general level gengetsu gets trolled by jiriaya. he wouldnt even need SM. because he is well suited to fight him
while the raikage would find it a longer match due to not being able to find gengetsu


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> In this encounter jiriaya starts in SM to give him a better chance. i however believe if the raikage sees some weird transformed guy he should be tryign to up his game. also their first exchange would scream to him nikute must be used. All versions would work.



Orochimaru looks pretty weird. So does Kisame. Both take after animals. In the shinobi world strange appearances aren't all that uncommon. It's not necessarily a sign that A would go all out from the start with no knowledge. 

A was known as the only human who could wrestle with a bijū. The man met his end while facing an army of 10,000 shinobi for three days and three nights. So I don't think he would fear one man just based on his looks. 

That said, they are both experienced kage level shinobi. Would make sense if they sense how strong each other are before they clash. But this works both ways. Jiraiya may change up his game plan as well. 



> What do you think about the raikage ability to change the length of his nikute. The length of it against hachibi in the flash back looks quite abit longer than the one used against naruto. stands to reason with shape manipulation he can extend it. Even if just as much as shown in the flash back which makes him that much harder to avoid



Can you link me to the panel? I don't doubt you but I want to see how long it is. I don't recall that scene.



> No doubt though its not impossible for frong song to land and once it lands well its effectively GG.
> 
> if the jutsu were faster this would be an easy match for jiriaya
> 
> ...



Thanks man. I don't agree with you all the time but you bring an interesting perspective to these match-ups and you're very active here (more so than myself). So kudos.

A lot of this stuff is subjective. I've changed my viewpoints on many of these characters throughout my time in this section. Now that the manga is over and no new information is available outside the databooks (something many of us don't have much faith in) posters will be more inclined to stick with their guns about certain characters. 

There's definitely a been a drop in quality here. It's pretty noticeable. That has to do with the manga ending. Things are now stagnant and we're feeling the effects of that. Will probably pick up when _Naruto Gaiden_ comes out.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Orochimaru looks pretty weird. So does Kisame. Both take after animals. In the shinobi world strange appearances aren't all that uncommon. It's not necessarily a sign that A would go all out from the start with no knowledge.



not jiraiya looking weird so much as his stature. i.e his build. jiraiya looks hench in SM because he is hench 



> A was known as the only human who could wrestle with a bijū. The man met his end while facing an army of 10,000 shinobi for three days and three nights. So I don't think he would fear one man just based on his looks.



true but even an arm of that size. jiriaya can take them. wont really compare them to jiriaya. granted jiriaya as well would loose due to exhaustion. but fodders are alot less dangerous than a ninja with skill. though i would agree. nikute wont come out off the batt. 



> That said, they are both experienced kage level shinobi. Would make sense if they sense how strong each other are before they clash. But this works both ways. Jiraiya may change up his game plan as well.



true jiraiya may change up his plan. however he will start with ninjutsu or taijutsu still. he is more inclined to do so as it is his natural way of fighting. he got no skill in genjutsu. Ma and Pa opting straight for genjutsu is as unlikely as 1 finger nikute off the bat 




> Can you link me to the panel? I don't doubt you but I want to see how long it is. I don't recall that scene.



for u. will do gladly. you i can argue with at length 

this 
9

is longer than this 

9



> Thanks man. I don't agree with you all the time but you bring an interesting perspective to these match-ups and you're very active here (more so than myself). So kudos.



ditto. glad to argue with someone who doesnt just scream i like this character more therefore the other is shit and must loose 



> A lot of this stuff is subjective. I've changed my viewpoints on many of these characters throughout my time in this section. Now that the manga is over and no new information is available outside the databooks (something many of us don't have much faith in) posters will be more inclined to stick with their guns about certain characters.



same here. 



> There's definitely a been a drop in quality here. It's pretty noticeable. That has to do with the manga ending. Things are now stagnant and we're feeling the effects of that. Will probably pick up when _Naruto Gaiden_ comes out.



A horrible drop. the culprits know themselves


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2015)

@Icegaze

Since most of our disagreement surrounds what SM-Naruto is capable of versus what SM-Jiriaya is capable of, In-order to better understand each others view points, i'm going to pose a couple questions.

In percentages please put rough values on the following:

1) How much greater of a boost to Base-Naruto's speed does his SM grant him versus Jiriaya's. So basically does Naruto's SM give a 5%, 10%, 15%, etc... better boost to speed than Jiriaya's SM?

2) How much better do you believe Naruto's Frog Katas to be; 5%, 10%, etc... 

3) How much better is Base Jiriaya's speed being a 4.5 vs Naruto's 3.5, quantified in a precent; 5%, 10%, etc....

4) How much better is Base-Naruto's speed versus that of Dat-Clone, considering Tobirama seems to consider clones slower for whatever reason; 5%, 10%, etc...

5) How much easier does Naruto evade Nukite if he doesn't wait till thee last second 5%, 10%, etc...

I need these numbers to understand what exactly your position is.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> Since most of our disagreement surrounds what SM-Naruto is capable of versus what SM-Jiriaya is capable of, In-order to better understand each others view points, i'm going to pose a couple questions.
> 
> ...



to better understand my position please look at thunder and my conversation with him. thats what a discussion should look like 
my opinion is the raikage is at a clear advantage therefore is more likely to win than not

as to the % u ask for. kishi nor I dont care enough to elaborate. superior is superior. Ei is faster than his dad i dont know by what % nor is it relevant . He is faster ze end. 

While thunder believes jiriaya can win,you would notice no bias in his post at all. 
I cannot say the same for ur post, where u assume despite zero manga evidence that danger sensing makes any SM user impossible to hit. 

So thats my 2 cents on the issue. As most have said the sandaime wins. 
While the only other good poster in opposition gave reasons to believe its not impossible for jiraiya to win all the while still pointing the obvious fact that the raikage is at an advantage which cant be ignored.


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> not jiraiya looking weird so much as his stature. i.e his build. jiraiya looks hench in SM because he is hench.
> 
> true but even an arm of that size. jiriaya can take them. wont really compare them to jiriaya. granted jiriaya as well would loose due to exhaustion. but fodders are alot less dangerous than a ninja with skill. though i would agree. nikute wont come out off the batt.



Mind you, I don't think A would hold back on Nukite for very long or anything Just talking about the initial stage of the fight where they both feel each other out, test the waters. 

I envision A would power up his shroud and charge, leading with a straight. His punch was strong enough to do this so it's not like its a weak attack or anything. 



> true jiraiya may change up his plan. however he will start with ninjutsu or taijutsu still. he is more inclined to do so as it is his natural way of fighting. he got no skill in genjutsu. Ma and Pa opting straight for genjutsu is as unlikely as 1 finger nikute off the bat


Definitely. Frog Song is a last resort move for Jiraiya. Using it off the bat is unlikely. 

What about Frog Call? The move Ma and Pa used to paralyze Pain's summons when they charged Naruto? Jiraiya would want to slow A down after realizing how quick and reflexive A is.



> for u. will do gladly. you i can argue with at length
> 
> this
> Link removed
> ...


Thanks. I see what you mean. If A attempts to catch Jiraiya off guard by extending his attack either Jiriaya gets hit or Jiraya evades with his sage sensing. 

Depends on how highly you rate Jiraiya's reactions and sensing ability.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Mind you, I don't think A would hold back on Nukite for very long or anything Just talking about the initial stage of the fight where they both feel each other out, test the waters.



believe me i know u dont. just that you are right at the initial stage someone capable of wrestling a bijuu would not think to use nikute. Though i believe that entirely depends on how jriaiya opens up the fight. 
For example using goemon might encourage the raikage to run through and use nikute for the added effect of surprise 

however coming at him with a punch would not necessarily force him to bring out nikute. 



> I envision A would power up his shroud and charge, leading with a straight. His punch was strong enough to do this so it's not like its a weak attack or anything.



we agree. He would start with that which jiriaya can dodge. trust me never attempted to imply jiriaya cant dodge any attacks



> Definitely. Frog Song is a last resort move for Jiraiya. Using it off the bat is unlikely.



this. however why its difficult to pull off and the assumption i dont like that other posters have made is that jiriaya can so easily gain distance either by simply havin Ma blow up a cloud or jiriaya using summons

The cloud wouldnt slow the raikage down. it wont even stop him from his run. Now jiraiya would use this to get away no doubt. However one limitation of frog song is the second the frogs croak jiriaya has already revealed his position 



> What about Frog Call? The move Ma and Pa used to paralyze Pain's summons when they charged for Naruto? Jiraiya would want to slow A down after realizing how quick and reactive A is.



that would work perfectly. but for how long. if he uses frog call immoblizies A then runs far enough to use frog song. 
I mean for how long as in how long can the frog call immobilize a target. 10 seconds 1 minute or more. kishi never elaborated. I however doubt is that long. or they would never have needed to use frog song if frog call could have immobilized the paths long enough for jiriaya to finish them off





> Thanks. I see what you mean. If A attempts to catch Jiraiya off guard by extending his attack either Jiriaya gets hit or Jiraya evades with his sage sensing.



i agree jiriaya can evade. what he cant do is always evade. 1 hit is all it takes for A to capitalize on an injury or win. Also with the scan u see that A can extend his nikute. this is a skill asuma showed against kisame, and one choujiro showed against black zetsu. being able to alter the length of his nikute for a surprise attack should work fantastically. Considering from hachibi statement the nikute A used against hachibi cut all 8 tails at once. Now thats not just cutting ability but range as well. 



> Depends on how high you rate Jiraiya's reactions and sensing ability.


[/QUOTE]

i rate it lower than War arc SM naruto. how much lower. really isnt that important. it isnt like i am sayign he cant hope to evade A. Just that its not easy. considering naruto tactic and way of evading A was used because of knowledge. 

Also Sm naruto seems to be faster than Sm jiriaya, something that helps with evasion


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> to better understand my position please look at thunder and my conversation with him. thats what a discussion should look like
> my opinion is the raikage is at a clear advantage therefore is more likely to win than not.


Jiriaya is at a clear advantage if he starts in SM as we've been discussing. The location also favors and distance heavily favor him as well. That's not even debatable. 

It's whether Sandaime can overcome the advantages Jiraiya has which is what's being discussed here.



> as to the % u ask for. kishi nor I dont care enough to elaborate. superior is superior. Ei is faster than his dad i dont know by what % nor is it relevant . He is faster ze end.


Umm Kishi does care about the degree to which a character is faster than another, how much difference power-ups make, or handicaps make on that base speed. He may not give percentages, but I only ask that as a simple way to clarify your view point. 



> While thunder believes jiriaya can win,you would notice no bias in his post at all.
> I cannot say the same for ur post, where u assume despite zero manga evidence that danger sensing makes any SM user impossible to hit.


Sigh, the only one not credible here is you. Whether it's intentionally or not idk, but you show lack of credibility the moment you put forth multiple straw-man in these sentences.

Straw-Man 1: "danger sensing makes any SM user impossible to hit."

No where did I say that. I said SM-Jiriaya & SM-Naruto w/ Danger-Sensing is next to impossible for Sandaime-Raikage to hit. Note the subjects here are "SM-Jiriaya", "SM-Naruto", and "Sandaime-Raikage". The statement I'm making applies to those three subjects, and presenting it as anything besides that, like your doing here, is at best ether a failure of comprehension, and at worst a outright lie.

Straw-Man 2: "despite zero manga evidence"

I've cited my evidence multiple times in this thread to you or other individuals:

Base-Jiraiya's speed and reflexes are multiple tiers higher than Base-Naruto's. Seemingly clones are suppose to be slower than the original, so the gap may be even large than that between Jiraiya and Base-Dat-Clone. When comparing there speed from there, both have the power up of Sennin Modo and Frog Katas. Naruto's SM is perfect, while Jiriaya's has more Toad features, however the manga specifically cites the reason for the difference between these two modes is efficiency in balancing the three energies (Spiritual, Physical, and Natural); it does not at any point suggest less toad features indicates vastly higher gains from said SM. Thee only way any higher gains could be argued is on the basis that balancing the three energies more efficiently allows Naruto to produce more Senjutsu-Chakra at any given time than Jiriaya and a greater quantity of Senjutsu-Chakra means higher gains. However even taking that position, i.e. thee only supportable position, Base-Naruto was never indicated to have so much more chakra than Base-Jiriaya (another stamina beast) that he could create vastly more physical and mental energy to balance with natural at any given time, so the difference in quantity shouldn't be that large and therefore his gains shouldn't be that much large than Jiriaya's. Since Jiriaya already starts at a point of multiple tier superiority to Naruto, At absolute best and i'm stretching things significantly in Naruto's favor to come to this conclusion, it's potentially conceptually possible for Naruto's gains to be high enough to just reach SM-Jiriaya's level.


However beyond that, SM-Naruto dodged Sandaime-Raikage's attack at thee last second, while at the same time performing a counter. The fact that he could do that shows that someone with slower reaction time could still comfortable dodge Sandaime's attack, just not at thee last second and performing a counter strike. This means the gain that Base-Naruto needs to get is needs to be not only enough to make up the difference between himself and Base-Jiriaya and than make up for the gain of Jiriaya's own SM gains, but than make him considerably better than SM-Jiriaya, as if he's only a bit better, Jiriaya should still be able to comfortably deal with Sandaime's speed, just not waiting till the last second and countering. This does not seem conceptually plausible.

In the case of dat-clone it's even less conceptually plausible as Dat-clone has 1/13th or less of Base-Naruto's chakra, so how 1/13th of Naruto could be producing a greater quantity of Senjutsu chakra doesn't make sense when back in the wind arc the manga specifically cites that Base-Naruto's supply is x4 Kakashi's, which would put 1/13th lower than Kakashi's. And even if Naruto increase his stamina supply tremendously, some-how, since the wind-arc, 1/13th would still be at best around Kakashi's supply and not even coming close to touching Jiriaya's. And on top of that is Tobirama is to be believed and clones are slower than the original, than Dat-clone starts at a point of even greater inferiority to Jiriaya in speed, than Base-Naruto, so he has to make up an ever larger gap, which is not plausible.

I don't see how what I just presented in those above paragraphs is not an more informed analysis based on Manga-Cannon and Data-Book information, than simply saying Naruto is faster, because SM has less toad features ze-end, I really don't. But feel free to ask your pal Thunder to Weigh in on, who is more closely using evidence in their analysis.



> So thats my 2 cents on the issue. As most have said the sandaime wins.
> While the only other good poster in opposition gave reasons to believe its not impossible for jiraiya to win all the while still pointing the obvious fact that the raikage is at an advantage which cant be ignored.


I really hate this begging the audience argument, because what it boils down to is "most" really doesn't stand for much. It stands for whoever happens to be active in one forum and one specific thread, it doesn't at all reflect on who a majority of fans think would win.

What's more it's irrelevant to my points, as the people saying Sandaime wins are not necessarily anyone who has actually read my posts and took the time to consider what i'm actually expressing. It's just people who already formed an opinion and are reposting it. If someone like Thunder who I also respect, were to consider all my points and discuss them with me and still have valid reasoning for disagreeing, than that would be the only instance of public opinion that is valid to cite as supporting your position. However even than it would be 1 person. This isn't the Naruto-Great Debate were, we actually had several credible posters taking the time to consider and judge the strength of someone's argument. Those were valid opinions that were pertinent to the subject at hand, unlike what your citing here. And guess what in those settings my post received the highest score in strength of argument out of anyone, not to toot my own horn too much, but it reflects the difference i'm illustrating.


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> believe me i know u dont. just that you are right at the initial stage someone capable of wrestling a bijuu would not think to use nikute. Though i believe that entirely depends on how jriaiya opens up the fight.
> For example using goemon might encourage the raikage to run through and use nikute for the added effect of surprise
> 
> however coming at him with a punch would not necessarily force him to bring out nikute.



All right, we can move on from here. Good discussion.



> we agree. He would start with that which jiriaya can dodge. trust me never attempted to imply jiriaya cant dodge any attacks


Gotcha. Wasn't sure.



> this. however why its difficult to pull off and the assumption i dont like that other posters have made is that jiriaya can so easily gain distance either by simply havin Ma blow up a cloud or jiriaya using summons
> 
> The cloud wouldnt slow the raikage down. it wont even stop him from his run. Now jiraiya would use this to get away no doubt. However one limitation of frog song is the second the frogs croak jiriaya has already revealed his position


Well, I don't see why Jiraiya couldn't gain some distance using those tactics either. I think those posters remember how A was stalled by Dodai. 

The dust cloud wouldn't prevent A from running around but it would still reduce his vision significantly. It's similar to Hidden Mist in that regard. I think A is smart enough to avoid charging aimlessly into the thing. He doesn't know what could be waiting in there for him. All Jiraiya would need to do is hide a couple of Kage Bunshin in there and A is confused. In the mean time Frog Song is being charged.

As for Jiriaya's summons, both Gamabunta and Gamaken can leap insanely high. Those leaps will cover a lot of ground. The toads themselves aren't a threat to A considering he took on Gyūki, however they can create some breathing room for Jiraiya before disappearing. 



> that would work perfectly. but for how long. if he uses frog call immoblizies A then runs far enough to use frog song.
> I mean for how long as in how long can the frog call immobilize a target. 10 seconds 1 minute or more. kishi never elaborated. I however doubt is that long. or they would never have needed to use frog song if frog call could have immobilized the paths long enough for jiriaya to finish them off


I guess for as long as Ma and Pa continue croaking. Frog Song requires continuous croaking so we already have an idea of how long they can hold out: for as Jiraiya needs them too. Ma and Pa focus Senjutsu chakra to their throats which would of course enhance the throat muscles.



> i rate it lower than War arc SM naruto. how much lower. really isnt that important. it isnt like i am sayign he cant hope to evade A. Just that its not easy. considering naruto tactic and way of evading A was used because of knowledge.
> 
> Also Sm naruto seems to be faster than Sm jiriaya, something that helps with evasion


Yeah, I don't see Jiraiya flawlessly evading _everything_ A dishes out. Sensing would help Jiraiya get out of a really tight spot when he needs to, basically.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

> Thunder said:
> 
> 
> > All right, we can move on from here. Good discussion.
> ...


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> yes A can be stalled. never claimed he couldnt. but when i see posts such as jiriaya is at a clearer advatnage despite needing to stall and can only use 1 or 2 moves to do actually start fighting back. A la turrin post. mind getting at his points in our next discussion. want ur views on his post mine are . so not fair to keep arguing with him



I saw some of your argument with Turrin, and while I don't agree with _every_ little point he's making here, we both agree to the same outcome so it doesn't make much sense for me to start a debate with him on this topic. 

You're trying to turn the Jiraiya fans against each other here. 





> oh it would flat out reduce his vision that much i know. but why would A not charge aimilessly into it. not like it would harm him. and bar frog call or frog song every other thing jiriaya would do can be tanked.  fair enough though its probably smarter not to run into it


'Cause A won't be able to see. At the very least A's going to run into some problems finding the real Jiraiya in there. Like I said, a few Kage Bunshin would throw A off. Remember, the point of all this stalling is to get off Frog Song. Every little bit counts.



> yes they can leap very high and far. they are however still slower than A and A would catch up to any distance they attempt to create


This is the town they are fighting in. Look at all those buildings man. Jiraiya could hide out in one of them and A would struggle to find him. He's not a sensor. 



> yes frog song requires continuous croaking and only affects the victim once they are in sync


I don't think it will be a problem considering where the fight takes place, something I was accounting for because I just assumed they are fighting in destroyed Konoha for some reason. Obviously Jiraiya would come out as soon as he's ready. if Jiraiya loses A, Jiraiya could even enter his barrier toad and charge Frog Song in there. A would never find him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I saw some of your argument with Turrin, and while I don't agree with every little point he's making here, we both agree to the same outcome so it doesn't make much since for me to start a debate with him here.



fair enough. please elaborate on the points u disagree. You and i already agree on the outcome which was if i recall the posibilities of A winning are more likely than not
. 
turrin obviously believes jiriaya cant loose if he even tried to loose. 



> You're trying to turn the Jiraiya fans against each other here.



difference between fan and blind fandom



> 'Cause A won't be able to see. At the very least A's going to run into some problems finding the real Jiraiya in there. Like I said, a few Kage Bunshin would throw A off. Remember, the point of all this stalling is to get off Frog Song. Every bit counts.



yes i agree. though all stalling tactics would need to be in place before frog song starts. cuz ma nor pa cant assist with anything while they are croaking



> This is the town they are fighting in. Look at all those buildings man. Jiraiya could hide out in one of them and A would struggle to catch him.



fair enough. though cant he just cut them down. with a jutsu which has the AOE to cut 8 bijuu tails at once. 
hiding his a good tactic but not while frogs are croaking giving away ur location. 




> I don't think it will be a problem considering where the fight takes place, something I was accounting for before because I just assumed they fighting in destroyed Konoha for some reason. Obviously Jiraiya would come out as soon as he's ready.



jiriaya wont need to come out. he would be found. croaking frogs are a loud beacon didnt Ma and Pa state that as a weakness to the jutsu already?

note: @turrin i never did take note of the location. for that i apologize. the rest still very much


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Re check my post. I made a quick edit about the barrier toad. Would be hard to find Jiraiya if he escapes in there, and there wouldn't be any noise.


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

true there wouldnt be any noise and its a fantastic option. remember the barrier toad is just an actual toad that jiriaya escapes into. with a seal on its mouth. 

If u agree there is no sound coming, there would be no sound escaping so  how would the raikage hear the frogs croak though. which he needs to hear to be caught in genjutsu


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> true there wouldnt be any noise and its a fantastic option. remember the barrier toad is just an actual toad that jiriaya escapes into. with a seal on its mouth.
> 
> If u agree there is no sound coming, there would be no sound escaping so  how would the raikage hear the frogs croak though. which he needs to hear to be caught in genjutsu



My bad, I wasn't very clear there. Was in a hurry. But what I meant was, Jiraiya could enter the barrier and charge Frog Song while he's in there then exiting the barrier when the song is compete. 

It's definitely workable.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I saw some of your argument with Turrin, and while I don't agree with _every_ little point he's making here, we both agree to the same outcome so it doesn't make much sense for me to start a debate with him on this topic.
> 
> You're trying to turn the Jiraiya fans against each other here.
> .


Feel free man, I enjoy actual constructive criticism or valid counter points. The problem is we get very little of that here, especially these days, which is basically why I rarely post in the NBD or KL anymore, unless it's a topic I find specifically interesting.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> turrin obviously believes jiriaya cant loose if he even tried to loose.


Actually I believe he could loose to Amber-Sealing Jar, because anyone in the verse can loose to that, w/o knowledge. I just find Jiriaya to be one of the most likely candidates to have knowledge of the Jar. 

Tho outside of the Jar, I do not think Jiraiya can loose in a scenario where he starts in SM. If he starts in Base he could loose depending on what actions each take IC, which I believe comes down to plot and conditions of the match. Plot imo favors Jiriaya and in this thread conditions also favor Jiriaya, so I don't see it as likely that he looses here, even if he starts in Base. Under more favorable conditions Sandaime might have better odds. 

Overall I see Sandaime and Jiraiya as on a similar "level", I just see Jiriaya odds as better in most conditions as his versatile grants him more options in a multitude of scenario's than Sandaime and plot being on his side over someone like Sandaime means his IC choices are likely to be more intelligent and efficient than Sandaime's in most instances (or if you don't like plot, he's demonstrated greater strategic feats, has more experience, and so on). Than he also has SM which if he reaches it push him well beyond Sandaime, due to how Hax Kishi made it over time.

So basically it's only when Jiriaya gets the enormous advantage of starting a match automatically in SM, that I see him as whole level beyond the like of Sandaime, sans the hax trumph card of Amber-sealing jar.


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## Thunder (Mar 31, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Feel free man, I enjoy actual constructive criticism or valid counter points. The problem is we get very little of that here, especially these days, which is basically why I rarely post in the NBD or KL anymore, unless it's a topic I find specifically interesting.



Only thing I disagree with is the whole Jiraiya is equal or better than Naruto when it comes to Senjutsu, if that's what you're even arguing Turrin. I'm too lazy to read through your back and forth with Icegaze right now. 

Because Naruto is a perfect sage it make sense to me that his ghost punches and perhaps sage sensing would be _a bit_ better than Jiraiya's. The difference shouldn't be _too_ great though. 

Icegaze seems to be arguing that Sage Naruto is in a _completely different ballpark_ than Sage Jiraiya when it comes to ghost punches and sage sensing, and I strongly disagree with him on that. I think there's a difference for sure. But a gigantic one? Doubtful.

That's not to say Jiraiya doesn't have his own perks. He's more experienced than the Sage Naruto who fought Pain, more versatile, and has more knowledge of shinobi lore in general. His base stats are better too. Base Jiraiya already has a 4.5 in speed. Accounting for the Sage Mode boost (clearly seen when Jiraiya blitzed a Pain path despite shared Rinnegan vision), it's probably a 5. I think you've already gone over this.

As for the match-up. I didn't even realize they are fighting in a big city. Shame on me for not checking the OP. Anyway, Jiraiya is king when it comes to subterfuge so he's got the advantage. There's just so many options available to Jiraiya in a setting like this. As soon as Jiraiya opts for Frog Song it's over. I see no reason why it would fail here.

If Jiraiya slips away A's only option of finding a Jiraiya that doesn't want to be found is going Juggernaut on these buildings until he finds the right one. He's definitely got the stamina to run around this city all day. But it's going to be like finding a needle in a haystack. Not much else A can do since he's pretty one-dimensional.


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## Turrin (Mar 31, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Only thing I disagree with is the whole Jiraiya is equal or better than Naruto when it comes to Senjutsu, if that's what you're even arguing Turrin. I'm too lazy to read through your back and forth with Icegaze right now.


This isn't quite an accurate representation of my beliefs. Naruto is better at Senjutsu, that's indisputable imo. However where I disagree with Icegaze is what being better at Senjutsu entails. The manga outlines that having less Toad features (or Perfect-SM) means Naruto is better at efficiency, I.E. he is more apt at balancing the three energies (Physical, Mental, and Spiritual). Better efficiency means less wasted energy and is also the reason why Naruto later down the line is able to still pull of feats like balancing natural energy in the right proportion to the massive chakra quantities of BM and even later "God-Mode".

However I do not see any evidence that having "Perfect-SM" magically gives the users vastly greater gains, as in larger boosts to core areas (Str, Spd, Nin, etc...) than having slightly more Toad features. While I will admit it's possible that being able to balance these energies more efficiently allows Naruto to produce more Senjutsu-Chakra at a given time than Jiriaya, as he's being less wasteful [basically mechanics of chakra control], being somewhat less wasteful should not produce vastly higher gains, but rather a bit higher ones.

Which leaves the question how much of a difference are those bit higher gains, assuming they exist, making? Is it even enough to make up for the multiple tier difference in speed between Base-Jiraiya and Base-Naruto plus Jiriaya's own SM gains? My stand point on this is even if I stretch my suspension of disbelief to the utmost limits, I'd say at best it makes up that difference. However according to Icegaze this is a bias standpoint to hold, because Perfect means better and no other factors or how we come to conclusions matters ze end. So basically that is the conflict on that opinion between us.



> Because Naruto is a perfect sage it make sense to me that his ghost punches and perhaps sage sensing would be a bit better than Jiraiya's. The difference shouldn't be too great though.


Here I think we disagree, but it's a soft disagreement. I don't think Jiraiya is any less proficient at a C-rank technique than Naruto. I would buy into that if DBIV had indicated Frog Katas is scalable, like the more you do X the better Frog-Katas become, but it doesn't say that. Instead it just says once you learn the tech you can do all the shit Naruto showed he could do. So I don't think there is any difference between them. However if you want to say Naruto is a bit better for one reason or another (though I'd like to hear why), it's not some major disagreement, and like I've said to Icegaze multiple times if you wish to believe SM-Naruto is somewhat better, cool, that just means instead of being able to wait till the last second to avoid Sandaime's attack, he Jiraiya would have to act right away; but he's still more than capable of evading.

However Icegaze believes Naruto's Frog Katas are way better, so much so to the point where SM-Dat-Clone can wait till the last second to avoid Sandaime's attack and time a counter perfectly, but SM-Jiriaya can't avoid it at all, and once again i'm bias because Naruto's SM is more perfect than Jiraiya's and therefore his Frog Katas are vastly superior ze end.



> Icegaze seems to be arguing that Sage Naruto is in a completely different ballpark than Sage Jiraiya when it comes to ghost punches and sage sensing, and I strongly disagree with him on that. I think there's a difference for sure. But not huge one? Doubtful.
> 
> That's not to say Jiraiya doesn't have his own perks. He's more experienced than the Sage Naruto who fought Pain, more versatile, and has more knowledge of shinobi lore in general. His base stats are better too. Base Jiraiya already has a 4.5 in speed. Accounting for the Sage Mode boost (clearly seen when Jiraiya blitzed a Pain path despite shared Rinnegan vision), it's probably a 5.


And this is basically what I'm saying. Assuming Naruto's SM even does offer slightly better gains in spd and Frog Katas is that really going to put Naruto so far ahead of Jiraiya, despite Naruto starting from a point of multiple tier inferiority in speed/reflexes, that SM-Jiraiya couldn't still evade Sandaime's attacks like SM-Naruto did. I have an extremely hard time believing that to be the case and simply citing one SM is more "perfect" than another, with no further substance beyond that, is very far from being the credible argument necessary to make that point seem plausible.



> As for the match-up. I didn't even realize they are fighting in a big city. Jiraiya is king when it comes to subterfuge so he's got the advantage. There's just so many options available to Jiraiya in a setting like this.
> 
> If Jiraiya slips away A's only option of finding a Jiraiya that doesn't want to be found is going Juggernaught on these buildings until he finds the right one. He's definitely got the stamina. But it's going to be like finding a needle in a haystack. Not much else A can do since he's pretty one-dimensional.


Agreed as well, but I don't think Jiraiya even needs to do that if he starts in SM. SM-Jiriaya's reaction time imo, even if it's slightly less than Naruto's is still more than enough to avoid and maneuver around Sandaime's attacks, until he can land a combo for Toad-Gourd or charge Frog-Song. I might thinking differently if Sandaime was shown to be a less straight forward fighter, but sans Amber-Sealing-Jar the guy is a straight forward bruiser, so the moment someone is able to react and physical evade his speed, I don't see him having much chance of landing any attacks. And again unless SM-Jiriaya is vastly slower than SM-Dat-Clone, I don't see SM-Jiriaya as being incapable of evading Sandaime's attacks; whether you want to say he does so with slightly more effort than SM-Dat-Clone who could wait until the last second to do so, is whatever to me.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

@thunder and turrin do please show me a jutsu which has been perfected that hasnt made the user much better than his predecessor 

hirashin
Edo tensei 
rasengan 

All techniques perfected by the later users. Could anyone of u compare kabuto ET to tobirama's or jiraiya use of rasengan to naruto. No you cant. because they are in different ball parks
Same for minato hirashin to tobirama's

Why would those ball park differences apply to these jutsu but not sage mode. 

Naruto base abilities dont have to be remotely close to jiriaya for him to surpass jiriaya largerly with a perfected jutsu

Naruto is the perfect example he clearly isnt superior to jiriaya in base yet thanks to his chakra levels can perfect rasengan to FRS. FRS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rasengan. 

why this wouldnt apply to a body enhancement jutsu i have no idea.

My issue with Turrin is you never have even attempted to see the other side of it. you go on saying people have already formed their opinions therefore dont read your arguments but you do the exact same thing worse even because you are being a hypocrite 

The raikage is not versatile. it however doesnt mean he is straight forward and can only attempt to stab. in 555 alone he used nikute twice  to cut vs pierce
Already dicussed with thunder, the raikage has shown the ability to extend the length of his nikute. The one used against hachibi was much longer than the one he tried to use on naruto. 




this makes sense seeing that the likes of asuma, choujiro, sasuke and even fodder samurai can do. Swappign fingers decreases or increases his range at will. or extending and reducing his 1 finger nikute would do the same. stabbing and swinging with enough AoE to cut 8 tails at once are not dodged in the same way. 

Jiriaya can only dodge. he cannot block nikute in any way. that is what makes things very hard for him. While we got raikage who never actually needs to block. 

trading blows is horrible for jiraiya. The raikage body would allow him to even fight carelessly and always get in jiriaya face. 

I hope my points will be read and actually make sense

btw careless fighting is a tactic danzo used against sasuke once he had izanagi on. This allowed danzo a slower opponent to hit sasuke by forcing sasuke to trade blows. tsunade with byakuyo did the same. 

Yes jiriaya can dodge. but if u are dodging u arent attacking. sandaime never needs to worry about that. he can just keep charging

This was translated by you: 

*Hell Stab

One's hand pierces through heaven and earth, Hell Stab's lighting leaves nothing behind.

Sandaime Raikage's extreme specialty is Raiton Nin/Taijutsu. A raiton lunging attack that is similar to Kakashi's Rarikiri, which pierces through defenses. As the number of fingers decrease the jutsu evolves. As the fingers decrease each time, the surface area of the attack becomes smaller, but the piercing power of the Jutsu concentrates. Sandaime's jutsu calls out the "strongest spear", though on occasion it can be used for vertical cuts and than it becomes a meitou (the title for legendary swords), though no matter the style it maintains a sharpness that one can be proud of.
Similar to Rarikiri when it's time to attack the focus is to create a chink in the opponents armor, while using ones tough body to repel the enemies attack*

you translated frog katas as well as raiton chakra mode. u should know what they all say.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @thunder and turrin do please show me a jutsu which has been perfected that hasnt made the user much better than his predecessor
> hirashin


Hiraishin is actually a good example of that. According to the DB Yondaime took Hiraishin further than Tobirama, but Yondaime's Hiraishin wasn't eons better than Tobirama's, he just had a few more tricky applications off it than Tobirama w/ Hiraishin LV2 and Rasen-Flash-Dance. That's not a _big_ difference.

But ultimately you are still missing the point. There is a _big_ difference between Naruto and his predecessor, it's just not in the ways your citing. It is once again in efficiency of balancing the three energies. This is partially why he can use SM efficiently w/o needing to fuse and later why he can still pull off the balancing with massive quantities of chakra like BM and later God-Mode. That is a massive thing he holds over Jiraiya in Senjutsu; just again not the ways your saying he does.



> My issue with Turrin is you never have even attempted to see the other side of it. you go on saying people have already formed their opinions therefore dont read your arguments but you do the exact same thing worse even because you are being a hypocrite


Your argument is that Naruto perfected the mode and therefore he is better ze end. It's absolutely ridiculous to say I have not considered that POV, when I gave you a chance to clarify your view point two posts ago and instead you just repeated it's better the ened. After recieving no clarification from you whatsoever I than literally wrote a real substantive argument for that POV, I.E. that Naruto balancing the energies more efficiently allows him to produce more Senjutsu-Chakra at any given time, which may cause his SM to boost him more than Jiriaya. The problem is even following that train of reasoning, I don't see how the boosts can conceptually be anywhere near as large as your POV demands them to be. 

I'm not sure what else I need to do beyond writting a fricken argument for your view point, in-order to qualify is attempting to see your view point; short of just saying Your Right Icegaze, which isn't seeing your view point it's buying into it.



> The raikage is not versatile. it however doesnt mean he is straight forward and can only attempt to stab. in 555 alone he used nikute twice to cut vs pierce


I don't see slashing instead of stabbing being such a tricky new style of attack, that it's going to be any more difficult for SM-Naruto or SM-Jiriaya to evade. It's still a straight forward style of attack.



> Already dicussed with thunder, the raikage has shown the ability to extend the length of his nikute. The one used against hachibi was much longer than the one he tried to use on naruto


Assuming this isn't just a scaling issue, which is a big favorable assumption for your stand-point considering Kishi's history with scaling fuck ups (note: again trying to see your view point), extending Nukite isn't going to help much here, as again SM-Data-Clone was able to wait till the last second to evade the Nukite used against him. So extending it's reach might force him to dodge sooner, but he'd still have more than enough time to dodge it. 

Basically I can see how Sandaime attacking in different methods and extending his Nukite could make it more difficult for someone to evade, but given Dat-Clone's display I do not see how it would be difficult enough to prevent ether Jiraiya or Naruto from evading w/ Frog Katas and SM enhancements.



> stabbing and swinging with enough AoE to cut 8 tails at once are not dodged in the same way.


That never happened. Hachibi just said he cut his tails, which almost certain refers to one at a time, not all at once, as even the large Nukite isn't anywhere near the AOE necessary to cut through all 8 tails at once.



> Jiriaya can only dodge. he cannot block nikute in any way. that is what makes things very hard for him. While we got raikage who never actually needs to block.


He doesn't need to block if he can dodge, that's the issue.



> Yes jiriaya can dodge. but if u are dodging u arent attacking. sandaime never needs to worry about that. he can just keep charging


SM-Data-clone was able to evade and time a counter. However like I've been doing this whole time I'll give your view point the benefit of the doubt and say SM-Jiriaya isn't quite that good and has to evade sooner, so he can't time a counter. If that's the case than sure he'll always be evading and have a difficult time landing attacks. Normally Raikage might win out because of this, but this tactic is screwed over by Fusaku and Shima.

Jiriaya doesn't need to attack himself, he has Fusaku and Shima who are riding shotgun, and can easily cast Jutsu while Jiriaya is focusing on evasion. They have Jutsu capable of slowing down the Raikage or outright defeating him. They have numerous LOS blockers, not the least of witch being Dust-Cloud, with those in play Jiraiya can escape from any barrage Sandaime is attempting as Sandaime lacks any detection skills. Frog Call can also stun Sandaime slowing him down enough to enable Jiraiya to cast a Jutsu, create some distance, escape LOS (especially in this location), or all of the above. Besides creating distance and escaping, Jiriaya can also use these chances to land Jutsu on Sandaime, and he has ones that would be effective. Taking control over his shadow, sealing in Toad Gourd, and potentially outright turning him into a Toad; all of these skills deny durability. Finally there is always Frog-Song, which Shima and Fusaku can charge even while Jiriaya is busy evading, and once it goes off it's over for Raikage.

So sure if Fusaku and Shima weren't there Raikage's chances would be better as he may be able to keep pressuring Jiriaya forcing him to only evade until he becomes exhausted and fucks up, but because there are two other individuals there to cover for him, this isn't happening.



> you translated frog katas as well as raiton chakra mode. u should know what they all say.


Of course I know what it says, It just doesn't say anything that makes it some super tricky technique that has a chance of bypassing Frog Katas and Jiriaya's own natural speed/reflexes. It's still a relatively straight-forward technique of a bruiser style fighter.


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

*@Icegaze*

Trying to compare Rasengan, Edo Tensei, and Hiraishin to something like Sage Sensing doesn't make sense to me. Because with those techniques we saw a very noticeable improvement. Like I said, I think Sage Naruto is better than Sage Jiraiya when it comes to those skills but not to the point where Sage Jiraiya would be unable to replicate some of Sage Naruto's feats.

*@Turrin*

We're in agreement for the most part. Only thing I want to point out is this: while Frog Kata is only a C-rank jutsu and thus should be easy to master for someone of Jiraiya's level, that doesn't necessarily mean that Jiraiya's Frog Katas are the same as Naruto's Frog Katas. Two different shinobi can master the same C-rank move, yet one of them could take it further than the other. There's no cap. You only need to look at Shunshin (a D-rank jutsu) to see what I mean. Every shinobi has mastered this basic jutsu yet some are far more skilled with Shunshin than others.

It stands to reason that a Perfect Sage would have perfect Frog Katas, as Frog Katas are just an extension of Natural Energy around the body. Someone with better control over Natural Energy in general would have more potent Frog Katas. Just common sense.

I don't think the gap is as huge as Icegaze is implying. But it still exists.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Hiraishin is actually a good example of that. According to the DB Yondaime took Hiraishin further than Tobirama, but Yondaime's Hiraishin wasn't eons better than Tobirama's, he just had a few more tricky applications off it than Tobirama w/ Hiraishin LV2 and Rasen-Flash-Dance. That's not a _big_ difference.



and minato in implementing hirashin with more kunai is alot better with it than tobirama. 
isnt his ability to balance the 3 natures better goign to boost his abilities beyond what an improper balance offers? and naruto has a few more tricky applications of sage mode. one which would be being able to expand FRS and use FRS. jiriaya couldnt even add an element to it. 



> But ultimately you are still missing the point. There is a _big_ difference between Naruto and his predecessor, it's just not in the ways your citing. It is once again in efficiency of balancing the three energies. This is partially why he can use SM efficiently w/o needing to fuse and later why he can still pull off the balancing with massive quantities of chakra like BM and later God-Mode. That is a massive thing he holds over Jiraiya in Senjutsu; just again not the ways your saying he does.



i just dont get why u think a perfect version of a technique wont be stronger than an imperfect one. again i apologize if i meant by much. however using naruto 1 time dodge to say jiraiya dances around sounds terribly biased 


> Your argument is that Naruto perfected the mode and therefore he is better ze end. It's absolutely ridiculous to say I have not considered that POV, when I gave you a chance to clarify your view point two posts ago and instead you just repeated it's better the ened. After recieving no clarification from you whatsoever I than literally wrote a real substantive argument for that POV, I.E. that Naruto balancing the energies more efficiently allows him to produce more Senjutsu-Chakra at any given time, which may cause his SM to boost him more than Jiriaya. The problem is even following that train of reasoning, I don't see how the boosts can conceptually be anywhere near as large as your POV demands them to be.



more senjutsu chakra would mean better senjutsu which boosts his abilities more than jiriaya. same way Ei more chakra in raiton chakra mode gives him better speed and reactions than his dad. 
like u said urself naruto can produce* more senjutsu chakra.* 
i only believe it is as large as the difference between Ei full cloak speed and his dad's. Ei can put more chakra into his shunshin. so can naruto which would make naruto faster than jiriaya. 
naruto got more senjutsu chakra, which means better frog katas. since its a jutsu which requires senjutus chakra



> I'm not sure what else I need to do beyond writting a fricken argument for your view point, in-order to qualify is attempting to see your view point; short of just saying Your Right Icegaze, which isn't seeing your view point it's buying into it.



dont be dramatic. no need. i dont need u to say i am right. Thunder never said such. However he was whinning that i dont claim jiriaya wins with ease like u have claimed. when u went on saying he can never be touched and will dance around someone faster than himself. 

burnt up very black kettle calling a grey pot black



> I don't see slashing instead of stabbing being such a tricky new style of attack, that it's going to be any more difficult for SM-Naruto or SM-Jiriaya to evade. It's still a straight forward style of attack.



. the AoE of the jutsu. 3 fingers he swong and created shock waves. again u translated the jutsu i dont get hw u didnt read it. are u goign to dodge a stab and a sword swing the same way?



> Assuming this isn't just a scaling issue, which is a big favorable assumption for your stand-point considering Kishi's history with scaling fuck ups (note: again trying to see your view point), extending Nukite isn't going to help much here, as again SM-Data-Clone was able to wait till the last second to evade the Nukite used against him. So extending it's reach might force him to dodge sooner, but he'd still have more than enough time to dodge it.



he extended it in the manga canon 
the one shown in the flash back against hachibi is much longer than the one used against naruto
again this is ur fan bias basically denying a scan drawn for u in the manga



> Basically I can see how Sandaime attacking in different methods and extending his Nukite could make it more difficult for someone to evade, but given Dat-Clone's display I do not see how it would be difficult enough to prevent ether Jiraiya or Naruto from evading w/ Frog Katas and SM enhancements.



dat clone could gather more SM chakra than jiriaya. therefore comparing the 2 is moot. 
Sm by passes the natural limits of an original chakra which makes the clones that much weaker. 
a naruto clone can still gather as much SM chakra as the original. however he cant do so as quickly it would seem. I never said naruto cant evade him or jiraiya. ur implication is jiriaya would never be hit which screams horrendous bias. 



> That never happened. Hachibi just said he cut his tails, which almost certain refers to one at a time, not all at once, as even the large Nukite isn't anywhere near the AOE necessary to cut through all 8 tails at once.



scan says in a single trust. look at it again. i dont see how thats ridiculous considering with 3 fingers he creates shockwaves




> He doesn't need to block if he can dodge, that's the issue.



he is however slower though. by manga feats. raiton cloak enhances reactions as well. so dont make it sound like jiriaya is the only one who got good reaction in this battle



> SM-Data-clone was able to evade and time a counter. However like I've been doing this whole time I'll give your view point the benefit of the doubt and say SM-Jiriaya isn't quite that good and has to evade sooner, so he can't time a counter. If that's the case than sure he'll always be evading and have a difficult time landing attacks. Normally Raikage might win out because of this, but this tactic is screwed over by Fusaku and Shima.



i dont know why u bring him up though. he perfected a jutsu that jiriaya has not 
u havent once looked at my POV u have whinning and bitched and gone back to repeating urself. which is jiriaya cant be touched he got sage mode. despite his lack of feats and the fact that u urself said he can gather less sage chakra. so why on earth would he be compared to someone who can gather more. how do shima and fusaku help in this situation. if they are contributing they are using frog song. they are also movign which means they arent gathering more sage chakra for jiraiya to use

dont conveniently forget that because jiriaya isnt good at it. he must split the task between himself and them

J





> iriaya doesn't need to attack himself, he has Fusaku and Shima who are riding shotgun, and can easily cast Jutsu while Jiriaya is focusing on evasion. They have Jutsu capable of slowing down the Raikage or outright defeating him. They have numerous LOS blockers, not the least of witch being Dust-Cloud, with those in play Jiraiya can escape from any barrage Sandaime is attempting as Sandaime lacks any detection skills. Frog Call can also stun Sandaime slowing him down enough to enable Jiraiya to cast a Jutsu, create some distance, escape LOS (especially in this location), or all of the above. Besides creating distance and escaping, Jiriaya can also use these chances to land Jutsu on Sandaime, and he has ones that would be effective. Taking control over his shadow, sealing in Toad Gourd, and potentially outright turning him into a Toad; all of these skills deny durability. Finally there is always Frog-Song, which Shima and Fusaku can charge even while Jiriaya is busy evading, and once it goes off it's over for Raikage.



then if they are attacking no frog song. which is his only way of winning. they can cast jutsu all they want. bar frog call. their jutsu would be next to useless. please do mention these jutus which can outright defeat the raikage. bar the frog song which u somehow assume can be used off the bat and without prep. mention another LOS blocker which isnt dust cloud. since u can say numerous so casually

taking over his shadow 
jiriaya must hold his breathe to use the jutsu. so he takes over his shadow then what ? 
yes if jiriaya seals him he wins. 
now u are sounding reasonable. best section of ur post. the only bit that doesnt make me want to . i am patronisign u because u deserve it

if jiraiya could touch anyone and turn them into toads. human path would have been one. i didnt see him turning into 1



> So sure if Fusaku and Shima weren't there Raikage's chances would be better as he may be able to keep pressuring Jiriaya forcing him to only evade until he becomes exhausted and fucks up, but because there are two other individuals there to cover for him, this isn't happening.



more sage chakra better speed and better reaction. if they are helping him. they arent gathering which affects jiriaya own abilities. dont conveniently forget that



> Of course I know what it says, It just doesn't say anything that makes it some super tricky technique that has a chance of bypassing Frog Katas and Jiriaya's own natural speed/reflexes. It's still a relatively straight-forward technique of a bruiser style fighter.



i was referign to raiton chakra mode. which u know enhances reflexes and matches naruto KCM mode. 

the only straight forward thing here which u and i agree on is jiraiya has less sage chakra than naruto. but u somehow believe their abilities arent much different. 

less see how less chakra affects jutsu users

minato had less chakra than naruto no FRS
hachibi has less chakra than kyuubi can only rapid fire 4BD instead of 5. 

less chakra affects the battle itself very critically. so u assuming jiriaya is on par despite saying he can gather less chakra is a paradox in itself. Also like ma and pa said they cant help jiriaya that much or for that long. if they are fighting who is gathering the chakra. 

i mean if they dont split the task sage mode will run out regardless if it does. its no longer a match

no opponent can dodge the other indefinitely even if they are faster. which again u dont have much claim for considering raiton chakra mode enhances reflexes as well. 

but yes ill give u ur dues on this one
frog call followed by toad gourd is certainly a way to go. 

so not bad.

though i wonder why jiriaya would start with such. No knowledge of raikage would not have him take such precautions which could be dangerous when he comes in close to land what he believes is a killing blow


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Thunder said:


> *@Turrin*
> 
> We're in agreement for the most part. Only thing I want to point out is this: while Frog Kata is only a C-rank jutsu and thus should be easy to master for someone of Jiraiya's level, that doesn't necessarily mean that Jiraiya's Frog Katas are the same as Naruto's Frog Katas. Two different shinobi can master the same C-rank move, yet one of them could take it further than the other. There's no cap. You only need to look at Shunshin (a D-rank jutsu) to see what I mean. Every shinobi has mastered this basic jutsu yet some are far more skilled with Shunshin than others.


I agree with your premise, but not with the conclusion. One shinobi can have a more impressive display with a C-rank Jutsu than another shinobi, but that is due to two factors. 

A) Can the Jutsu be scaled proportionally to the amount of chakra put in. Using the Shunshin example the more chakra someone puts into the larger distance someone can travel. 

B) If the user utilizes the technique more efficiently than another users. Again using the Shunshin example if shinobi-A has better reflexes than Shinobi-B, they will be able to employ Shunshin quicker and thus avoid speedy techniques or use shunshin to set up their own attacks more efficiently.

Nothing indicates Frog-Katas can scale the more chakra that's put into it and when it comes to utilizing it more proficiently, it's an ability that seemingly can be left active, so activation time isn't much of an issue here, and even if it were that comes down to reflexes, which for reasons previously discussed I think i'm being more than fair by saying SM-Dat-Clone is equal to SM-Jiriaya, and see no reason he'd be much better.

So in this particular case I don't think what your citing applies, though I agree it applies it many other cases.



> It stands to reason that a Perfect Sage would have perfect Frog Katas, as Frog Katas are just an extension of Natural Energy around the body. Someone with better control over Natural Energy in general would have more potent Frog Katas. Just common sense.


Not to me. Controlling natural energy around the body, is a C-Rank skill according to the DB, with no indication of scalability. A perfect-sage is better at balancing the energies than Jiriaya, but nothing indicates that better efficiency is need or scales the natural energy manipulation skills needed in executing Frog Katas.

Again for me it's an issue of the technique was never indicated to scale this way.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I agree with your premise, but not with the conclusion. One shinobi can have a more impressive display with a C-rank Jutsu than another shinobi, but that is due to two factors.
> 
> A) Can the Jutsu be scaled proportionally to the amount of chakra put in. Using the Shunshin example the more chakra someone puts into the larger distance someone can travel.
> 
> ...



what allows frog katas. senjutsu chakra. so how would have less of it make u as good as someone who has more of it. taking ur shunshin example. Ei can shunshin faster than anyone else because he has more chakra than anyone else. bar the juubi related people. now for those who have similar chakra levels they dont shunshin as fast because they wont be able react. their reflexes wont be boosted making it dangerous fo rthem



> So in this particular case I don't think what your citing applies, though I agree it applies it many other cases.



glad u can agree with someone 



> Not to me. Controlling natural energy around the body, is a C-Rank skill according to the DB, with no indication of scalability. A perfect-sage is better at balancing the energies than Jiriaya, but nothing indicates that better efficiency is need or scales the natural energy manipulation skills needed in executing Frog Katas.



and shunshin is D rank. yet Ei again is better than most. to some even on his level their shunshin arent comparable. would be like comparing an eagle to a turtle 



> Again for me it's an issue of the technique was never indicated to scale this way.



despite being a technique which requires senjutsu chakra. 
techniques requiring chakra are entirely controlled on their quantity and quality. both of which naruto is better than jiriaya

to further illustrate the difference between naruto and jiriaya. human path blocked his punch without looking. if he had naruto physical strength that wont have been possible. the path would have been sent flying. like how deva was when he tried to block naruto kick

further more direct contact killed preta path. direct kick from jiraiya only blinded human path.

now before u copt out and say jiriaya wasnt usign frog katas do note frog katas is simply taijutsu that makes it impossible to dodge. the chakra extensions arent goign to be stronger than a direct it. what i would say is raikage cannot in anyway evade jiriaya taijutsu. jiriaya will always land his hits. that much we agree on. 

since jiriaya has it in DB4 means he had it against pain. why he would have thought it useless is because even with a direct hit. he couldnt put a path down. 
to me that makes the most sense. even if u dont agree . Thunder probably would


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I agree with your premise, but not with the conclusion. One shinobi can have a more impressive display with a C-rank Jutsu than another shinobi, but that is due to two factors.
> 
> A) Can the Jutsu be scaled proportionally to the amount of chakra put in. Using the Shunshin example the more chakra someone puts into the larger distance someone can travel.
> 
> ...



Well, Shunshin was just an example so you know what I'm going on about here. I don't mean to compare Shunshin to Frog Kata in the way you're describing here. You can substitute in any jutsu or even fighting style for Shunshin and you'll see different users with different skill levels. My overall is point the rank somewhat irrelevant here.



> Not to me. Controlling natural energy around the body, is a C-Rank skill according to the DB, with no indication of scalability. A perfect-sage is better at balancing the energies than Jiriaya, but nothing indicates that better efficiency is need or scales the natural energy manipulation skills needed in executing Frog Katas.
> 
> Again for me it's an issue of the technique was never indicated to scale this way.



Oh, I meant to ask you this in my last post but I forgot. What does Jiraiya's new databook profile say about his Frog Katas? I know you did some reliable translating in the Library. 

And fair point about scalability. From what I understand the Sage in question generates an aura of Natural Energy around himself and manipulates it. Somewhat similar to the Hyuga clan techniques. Even though there's little indication of scalability we're still dealing with a form of energy here?chakra. A finer, more controlled aura is going to be better overall than an aura that is less advanced. A Perfect Sage like Naruto is going to have a better aura and thus more potent attacks. I sort of see it like Nen in Hunter X Hunter.

Compare sage Jiraiya's Frog Kata attack on Human Path to Sage Naruto's Frog Kata attack on Naraka Path. Firstly, Sage Jiraiya blinded Human Path with a direct kick while Sage Naruto _killed_ Naraka Path with a punch that didn't even connect. Secondly, Human Path's durability is less than Naraka's. Thirdly, legs are three times stronger than arms. The kick should've killed Human Path but it failed to. Must come down to a difference in skill with Frog Katas.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

@thunder exactly
though the frog katas chakra is an extension of his physical self. therefore a physically weaker SM jiraiya frog katas wont hit as hard as Sm naruto

which again i why i believe jiriaya decided to flee in a 3 vs 1 scenario. His hits could not kill off pain. in 1 hit. so even if he could out do them he would have been putting himself at risk

the chakra aura is also pertinent to their danger sensing since the chakra around them is an extension of themselves. which means once u are close or within range of their chakra they can sense u, very much like hyuga and prep the perfect counter. 

however a less perfect Sm aura would not be as good as it relies on chakra quantity and quality 

very much in the same way the hyuuga releasing chakra to detect and evade.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> isnt his ability to balance the 3 natures better goign to boost his abilities beyond what an improper balance offers?


Possibly, but as i've explained multiple times, Naruto already starts from a point of multiple tier inferiority in spd; dat-clone possibly even more inferior. So let me try to explain this to you more clearly, with a picture


"-----"  Indicates gaps.


Base Jiraiya is multiple tiers better than Base-Naruto in spd, so we'll start with something like this:

Base-Jiraiya "-----"  "-----"  Base-Naruto

According to Tobirama clones are slower than the original, to some unknown extent so now we get this:

Base-Jiraiya "-----"  "-----"  Base-Naruto "--?---"  Dat-Clone

I put the "?" because we don't know how big the gap is there.


Next Jiriaya gets his own SM boosts so now we have something like this:

SM-Jiraiya  "-----"  "-----" Base-Jiraiya "-----"  "-----"  Base-Naruto "---?---"  Dat-Clone

In-order for SM-Naruto to have equal reactions to SM-Jiriaya, his SM must not only boost him more than Jiriaya's, but make up for the difference between them originally. So instead of covering just this much space  "-----"  "-----", it has to cover this much space  "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----". That's already a significantly larger boost than Jiraiya's SM is granting him, possibly even more so in the case of Dat-Clone, as it has to than cover this much space, "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----" "---?---".

However your premise relies not just on Naruto's SM boost making him equal to Jiriaya, but better. How much better, well SM-Naruto was able to evade Sandaime's attack at the last second and perform a counter, but according to you Jiriaya would not be capable of performing this feat, and whats more he couldn't evade Sandaime's attack at all.

So let's say than we end up with something along the lines of:

SM-Naruto "-----"  "-----" SM-Jiraiya  "-----"  "-----" Base-Jiraiya "-----"  "-----"  Base-Naruto "---?---"  Dat-Clone

So now the boosts of SM need to cover this much space "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----"  "-----"  "-----" , for SM-Naruto and this much for "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----"  "-----"  "-----" "---?---".

At that point we are no longer in the realm of even significant differences in boosts, but tremendously different ones.

As I've outlined and as Thunder agreed, there is no evidence, nor is it even plausible based on the mechanics of SM, that the increases being slightly more efficient in balancing the three energies can offer are that tremendous.



> dont be dramatic. no need. i dont need u to say i am right. Thunder never said such. However he was whinning that i dont claim jiriaya wins with ease like u have claimed. when u went on saying he can never be touched and will dance around someone faster than himself.


I fail to see me stating what the manga indicates, is a failure to consider your view point or whinning. 



> he AoE of the jutsu. 3 fingers he swong and created shock waves. again u translated the jutsu i dont get hw u didnt read it. are u goign to dodge a stab and a sword swing the same way?


I get it just fine. They are different styles of attack, but both are straight-forward, so I don't see how someone who has already proven their ability to react to Raikage's speed waiting till the last second mind you is suddenly going to be hit just because Sandaime slashes instead of lunges.



> he extended it in the manga canon
> the one shown in the flash back against hachibi is much longer than the one used against naruto
> again this is ur fan bias basically denying a scan drawn for u in the manga


How it fan bias, to cite how Kishi has fucked scale in the past? 

Fuck i'm being bias in your favor by not even pushing that point, and just granting Sandaime the ability.



> . I never said naruto cant evade him or jiraiya. ur implication is jiriaya would never be hit which screams horrendous bias.


It's not bias if it can be backed up. We have SM-Dat-clone avoiding one of Sandaime's best attacks to the extent that he could wait till the technique is inches from hitting him and still avoid it with the right timing to land a counter. If he can do that to one of Sandaime's best attacks, how is Sandaime landing a hit on him, if he doesn't wait until the last second and avoids right away. Simply switching to another style of straight forward attack like slashing or extending it's reach a bit is not enough to enable Sandaime to land a hit, it just isn't. Beyond that you have offered no other reasoning for how Sandaime can land a hit, on someone who dealt his speed so casually. Until you do, I see nothing wrong with the idea of Jiriaya and Naruto when focusing entirely on evasion, being able to evade Sandaime's strikes with Frog Katas throughout the length of the battle.



> scan says in a single trust. look at it again. i dont see how thats ridiculous considering with 3 fingers he creates shockwaves


Now let me give you the real translation:

What Hachibi says is "一本貫手", which means Ippon Nukite. I.E. One-Finger Nukite. Nukite is often translated as Thrust, but it's really closer to spear. 

But anyway the translator fucked up that trans, and instead of citing it as the technique name, made it sound like an action.

In reality all Hachibi is saying is Sandaime used the one finger version of Hell-Stab against him. Not that he cut off all the tails in one thrust. Here's the raw:

9



> he is however slower though. by manga feats. raiton cloak enhances reactions as well. so dont make it sound like jiriaya is the only one who got good reaction in this battle


Frog Katas and SM seemingly enhances someone's reactions more, as demonstrated by SM-Dat clone.



> how do shima and fusaku help in this situation. if they are contributing they are using frog song. they are also movign which means they are gathering more sage chakra for jiraiya to use


Huh, Fusaku and Shima were able to charge Frog-Song in the Pain Arc, while Jiriaya was able to still stay in sm and have enough sage chakra to use many jutsu and techniques. So I have no clue what your referring to here.



> then if they are attacking no frog song. which is his only way of winning. they can cast jutsu all they want. bar frog call. their jutsu would be next to useless. please do mention these jutus which can outright defeat the raikage. bar the frog song which u somehow assume can be used off the bat and without prep.


Again here is where you need to stop talking about bias, when you just casually throw around this straw-man like nothing.

I did mention the jutsu that would be useful. So saying it didn't is Straw-Man 1

I never said Frog Song doesn't require charge up, So saying i ignored that is Straw-Man 2

Go on an ask your pal Thunder, to define a Straw-Man to you and ask him if that's what your doing here.



> mention another LOS blocker which isnt dust cloud. since u can say numerous so casually


Any Katon, Any Oil, Smoke Bombs, anything that blocks Sandaime Raikage's field of view is an LOS blocker. So there you go.



> taking over his shadow
> jiriaya must hold his breathe to use the jutsu. so he takes over his shadow then what ?


Than he charges up Frog Song while Sandaime can't move. Marches him over to the Toad Gourd Seal. Changes him into a Toad.



> if jiraiya could touch anyone and turn them into toads. human path would have been one. i didnt see him turning into 1


He kicked Human path, not put his hand on his forehead. 



> i was referign to raiton chakra mode. which u know enhances reflexes and matches naruto KCM mod


lol no it doesn't. Ei started out much faster than Base-Naruto and than after KCM-Naruto was faster than Ei.



> the only straight forward thing here which u and i agree on is jiraiya has less sage chakra than naruto. but u somehow believe their abilities arent much different.
> 
> less see how less chakra affects jutsu users
> 
> ...


I already explained this, please go back and re-read the posts I made on this argument, considering i'm the one who fucking provided it for you in the first place.


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

So A cutting off 8 tails with Nukite was a mistranslation? Glad that's settled.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Possibly, but as i've explained multiple times, Naruto already starts from a point of multiple tier inferiority in spd; dat-clone possibly even more inferior. So let me try to explain this to you more clearly, with a picture
> 
> 
> "-----"  Indicates gaps.
> ...



irrelevant. Sm naruto got perfect SM. which means better usage of more SM chakra which boosts his speed and reactions. 


> In-order for SM-Naruto to have equal reactions to SM-Jiriaya, his SM must not only boost him more than Jiriaya's, but make up for the difference between them originally. So instead of covering just this much space  "-----"  "-----", it has to cover this much space  "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----". That's already a significantly larger boost than Jiraiya's SM is granting him, possibly even more so in the case of Dat-Clone, as it has to than cover this much space, "-----"  "-----" "-----"  "-----" "---?---".



again thats what perfecting a jutsu is all about. oh i got one for u. base naruto<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<base killer bee. yet in controlling his bijuu he is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>killer bee. 
again quanitity and quality of chakra gives naruto a greater boost than those 2 despite his shabby base abilities. because he has more chakra than jiriaiya and more quality of chakra. which allowed for higher SM



> However your premise relies not just on Naruto's SM boost making him equal to Jiriaya, but better. How much better, well SM-Naruto was able to evade Sandaime's attack at the last second and perform a counter, but according to you Jiriaya would not be capable of performing this feat, and whats more he couldn't evade Sandaime's attack at all.



not my premise. kishi premise. logical premise. by the word perfect. again which would mean better control of chakra. base naruto has one thing jiriaya doesnt larger reserves which again allows for more SM chakra. the more natural energy a person has the stronger they are. 

eg: kyuubi getting all the worlds natural energy basically grew in size



> So let's say than we end up with something along the lines of:
> 
> SM-Naruto "-----"  "-----" SM-Jiraiya  "-----"  "-----" Base-Jiraiya "-----"  "-----"  Base-Naruto "---?---"  Dat-Clone
> 
> ...



ur pointlessly overthinking kishi made it simple for u. better reserves more sage chakra can be absorbed. considering the amount of sage chakra affects the mode the guy with more would be stronger and by a large margin.



> As I've outlined and as Thunder agreed, there is no evidence, nor is it even plausible based on the mechanics of SM, that the increases being slightly more efficient in balancing the three energies can offer are that tremendous.



thunder doesnt out right agree. 



> I fail to see me stating what the manga indicates, is a failure to consider your view point or whinning.



read what u write 



> I get it just fine. They are different styles of attack, but both are straight-forward, so I don't see how someone who has already proven their ability to react to Raikage's speed waiting till the last second mind you is suddenly going to be hit just because Sandaime slashes instead of lunges.



that person isnt jiriaya though. that person got more SM



> How it fan bias, to cite how Kishi has fucked scale in the past?



ah cry me a river  more fan whinning 



> Fuck i'm being bias in your favor by not even pushing that point, and just granting Sandaime the ability.



haha being delusion. granting. clown u translated precisely what he showed in the manga. he can use it as a sword to cut or stab. or can extend it at will. considering the difference in length *SHOWN* u want to claim its a scanning or drawing error as well?



> It's not bias if it can be backed up. We have SM-Dat-clone avoiding one of Sandaime's best attacks to the extent that he could wait till the technique is inches from hitting him and still avoid it with the right timing to land a counter. If he can do that to one of Sandaime's best attacks, how is Sandaime landing a hit on him, if he doesn't wait until the last second and avoids right away. Simply switching to another style of straight forward attack like slashing or extending it's reach a bit is not enough to enable Sandaime to land a hit, it just isn't. Beyond that you have offered no other reasoning for how Sandaime can land a hit, on someone who dealt his speed so casually. Until you do, I see nothing wrong with the idea of Jiriaya and Naruto when focusing entirely on evasion, being able to evade Sandaime's strikes with Frog Katas throughout the length of the battle.



dat clone or any clone isnt jiriaya. that clone or any clone can gather more SM quicker and better therefore than clone sage mode is better. 

u bring up base naruto as if it matters. his boost are significantly greater than other poeople boost therefore he is stronger than them. take his base shunshin which is <<<<<<<<<<<<<,,Ei base shunshin. then compare his KCM or BM shushin to EI. 
its simple naruto gets a greater boost than Ei does when Ei uses his cloak. 



> Now let me give you the real translation:
> 
> What Hachibi says is "一本貫手", which means Ippon Nukite. I.E. One-Finger Nukite. Nukite is often translated as Thrust, but it's really closer to spear.
> 
> ...



ok so he cut 8 tails of a bijuu with not much resistance from said bijuu but somehow cant hit jiriaya once? aite. because we want to ignore the fact that he can just toro his way through and keep attacking



> Frog Katas and SM seemingly enhances someone's reactions more, as demonstrated by SM-Dat clone.



SM naruto has less reactions and speed than EI. see how that works.  
Sm got better quality and quantity of chakra than jiriaya 



> Huh, Fusaku and Shima were able to charge Frog-Song in the Pain Arc, while Jiriaya was able to still stay in sm and have enough sage chakra to use many jutsu and techniques. So I have no clue what your referring to here.



jiriaya used 3 techniques. its also something Pa explains. When naruto finally masters it. he tells naruto of the time limit then says dont worry we would split the task. its what we used to do with jiriaya. dont go against kishi statements because u dont like it



> Again here is where you need to stop talking about bias, when you just casually throw around this straw-man like nothing.



cry for me 



> I did mention the jutsu that would be useful. So saying it didn't is Straw-Man 1



cry for me 



> I never said Frog Song doesn't require charge up, So saying i ignored that is Straw-Man 2



no u just said jiriaya casually uses it and preps it while sandaime sits on his hand 



> Go on an ask your pal Thunder, to define a Straw-Man to you and ask him if that's what your doing here.



he just isnt biased and its hurting ur feelings. stop bitching



> Any Katon, Any Oil, Smoke Bombs, anything that blocks Sandaime Raikage's field of view is an LOS blocker. So there you go.



all useless he can just through them. again u translated the techique nikute. didnt u say he takes advantage of his durable body to land his attack. so why on earth a katon is being brought up when he will run straight through it i dont know.  also the katon blocks jiriaya line of sight equally 



> Than he charges up Frog Song while Sandaime can't move. Marches him over to the Toad Gourd Seal. Changes him into a Toad.



how long does frog call last? if it lasted that long why not just use that to stop the 3 paths? i bring this up because u talked about an immoblize sandaime. thats the only technique jiriaya has which can stop sandaime movement



> He kicked Human path, not put his hand on his forehead.



and didnt kill him. naruto killed preta



> lol no it doesn't. Ei started out much faster than Base-Naruto and than after KCM-Naruto was faster than Ei.



faster not much faster and again u are making my point about the difference between jiriaya and naruto. 

by naruto gaining more chakra and better quality he was able to surpass Ei speed despite having much less to offer in base 

way to make my point for me



> I already explained this, please go back and re-read the posts I made on this argument, considering i'm the one who fucking provided it for you in the first place.



yup making my points while arguing against them


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## Alex Payne (Apr 1, 2015)

Hey, Turrin. Why do you think Base Jiraiya is "several tiers" faster than Base Naruto? Just DB3? Naruto from that DB went through several training arcs and several fights before facing AAA. And we have no idea how J-Man's actual speed looks when compared to other people with the same stat. We saw several times how people with equal stat are not equal when performing on panel while people with difference in stats are nearly tied in that category.

**


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hey, Turrin. Why do you think Base Jiraiya is "several tiers" faster than Base Naruto? Just DB3? Naruto from that DB went through several training arcs and several fights before facing AAA. And we have no idea how J-Man's actual speed looks when compared to other people with the same stat. We saw several times how people with equal stat are not equal when performing on panel while people with difference in stats are nearly tied in that category.
> P.S. Don't waste your time with Icegaze.[/um]



yh bitch about Alex. 

forgetting all that though. even if naruto was a 1/10 the boost he got in being able to gather more SM chakra puts him above jiriaya who was several times better this is obvious 
even a troll such as ur self can agree huh troll star


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## Alex Payne (Apr 1, 2015)

I see that your manners are as good as your debating skills.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

imma just put u on my ignore list. 
coming on a thread where am not even talkign to ur dumb  ass to find my trouble. 
then u judge my manners.

@turrin u once asked by how much i thought naruto was better than jiriaya. i estimate it is about 3 times bettter

jiraiaya had to split the task of natural energy gathering between 3 people. naruto does not. So yes 3 times. 

which makes sense considering their difference in chakra capacity which allows naruto to gather more sage chakra. more chakra in a jutsu that requires chakra the stronger the jutsu


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Well, Shunshin was just an example so you know what I'm going on about here. I don't mean to compare Shunshin to Frog Kata in the way you're describing here. You can substitute in any jutsu or even fighting style for Shunshin and you'll see different users with different skill levels. My overall is point the rank somewhat irrelevant here.


I was also using Shunshin as an example because it's the one you brought up. My main point is when Rank doesn't matter there is always a reason provided for why the technique is scalable, which is not provided in the case of Frog Katas; in the manga or Data-book.



> Oh, I meant to ask you this in my last post but I forgot. What does Jiraiya's new databook profile say about his Frog Katas? I know you did some reliable translating in the Library.


From what I can recall in my skimming of the DB for interesting stuff, there was nothing worth note in Jiriaya's profile, but maybe this weekened when I have some more time i'll take a second look.



> And fair point about scalability. From what I understand the Sage in question generates an aura of Natural Energy around himself and manipulates it. Somewhat similar to the Hyuga clan techniques. Even though there's little indication of scalability we're still dealing with a form of energy here?chakra. A finer, more controlled aura is going to be better overall than an aura that is less advanced. A Perfect Sage like Naruto is going to have a better aura and thus more potent attacks. I sort of see it like Nen in Hunter X Hunter.


The problem I have with this is it was never indicated in the manga cannon that to perform Frog-Katas the way Naruto does, greater efficiency is necessary or that the technique is scalable.

For example Sasuke is more skilled at shape manipulation than Itachi, but is his Grand-Fireball technique any better because of it, no, because the tech doesn't scale off of shape manipulation. There's nothing that indicates Frog Katas scales off of ones skill with manipulating natural energy.

So for example, something may require X-level of Shape manipulation to work, but being twice as good as X, doesn't scale the technique anymore. 



> Compare sage Jiraiya's Frog Kata attack on Human Path to Sage Naruto's Frog Kata attack on Naraka Path. Firstly, Sage Jiraiya blinded Human Path with a direct kick while Sage Naruto killed Naraka Path with a punch that didn't even connect. Secondly, Human Path's durability is less than Naraka's. Thirdly, legs are three times stronger than arms. The kick should've killed Human Path but it failed to. Must come down to a difference in skill with Frog Katas.


I'm assuming you mean HG-Realm, not Naraka realm. But even than I don't see why one would assume HG-Realm is more durable than Human-Realm. Human-Realm seemed to be the most Taijutsu oriented path out of them all, with an ability conduive to getting up close and personal, while HG-Realm was a support oriented path meant to deal with Ninjutsu.

Additionally Jiraiya never hit Human-Path with Ghost Punches, while Naruto did hit HG Realm with that, so it's not even a real comparison.  Than there is also the way they were hit to be considered, HG realm being taken completely by surprise may not have been able to brace himself for impact to the extent Human was able to.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hey, Turrin. Why do you think Base Jiraiya is "several tiers" faster than Base Naruto? Just DB3? Naruto from that DB went through several training arcs and several fights before facing AAA. And we have no idea how J-Man's actual speed looks when compared to other people with the same stat. We saw several times how people with equal stat are not equal when performing on panel while people with difference in stats are nearly tied in that category.
> 
> **



Because I don't see any indication that his trainings would have boosted Base-Speed significantly. SM training amounted to him spending most of time meditating. He did spar with Fusaku a bit in SM, but is that going to make him a-lot better in speed, I really doubt it. Than the Kyuubi training was simply him fighting in different mindscapes against himself or Kurama, than moving around blocks with chakra arms, and than trying to form TBB, again nothing there that would indicate boosts to base capabilities. 

@Icegaze

I'm pretty much done discussing things with you. I've tried to explain something to you nine different ways and you just repeat yourself or call me bias, but then when I call you out on actual examples of bias you say i'm whinning. Hopefully Thunder has more patience to talk some sense into you than I, so i'll leave it to him, because right now your just coming off as trolling to me.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin since u translated it one question. i wont argue any longer but i need to ask 
from ur last comment with thunder u seem to imply that hitting a person with the chakra extension is stronger than a direct punch or kick 
did anything u translated leave u to believe that?
or do u just want to believe it?

human path didnt brace himself for the kick either. he was pretty surprised by it. and lost his eyes as a result. no bracing showing there. he didnt even have an exclamation mark to show he even had time to register


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## Duhul10 (Apr 1, 2015)

All of you have some good points, but Icegaze is a little exaggerating.
First of all about the Naruto- Jiraiya thing, i see it this way

War-Arc Sm Naruto (not huge gap)>> Pain-Arc Sm Naruto >very small gap) Sm Jiraiya
Icegaze sees it this way ( that is his opinion )
War-Arc Sm Naruto >>>>>>>>>> Pain-Arc Sm Naruto >>>>>>>>>> Sm Jiraiya, both huge gaps
Again, about the match up
If Jiraiya opens the fight with a dust cloud, he will have the upper hand for gamarinshou
Dust cloud- Raikage's vision is doomed. Then he can start gamarinshou immediately, but not before making a bunshin for frog call. If the Raikage is in Dust Cloud and imobilized with frog call, this will stall him long enough for gamarinshou to connect. In this plausible scenario Jiraiya takes it quite handly
Buuuuuuut, if the Raikage closes the distance once the battle begins ( i mean immediately ) and they will have cqc, Jiraiya will surely hit the Raikage, maybe most of the times due frog katas, but because of Raikage's almost immune body, he will be screwed finally by nukite. In this case Raikage takes it quite handly too.

I don't get it, why because of some disagreement, members always end up by fighting
Please do not respond to this post with bad words .. PEACE


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

> Duhul10 said:
> 
> 
> > All of you have some good points, but Icegaze is a little exaggerating.
> ...


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## Duhul10 (Apr 1, 2015)

I Haven't insulted you more than you did, but still that is not important.
I did not call you a troll, I said you are a little bit exaggerating because you see the gaps being enormous.
I was talking about Sm Naruto war arc, but of course before Juubito and Juubidara, where everyone got an immense boost
No, Jiraiya cannot run circles around Raikage, I mean I do not think it that way, maybe I am wrong.
But they have both more or less equal speed ( judging by the feats in Manga ).
Jiraiya has shown speed that could easily give him a 5 in stats, Raikage did not show that speed, but he was praised by a speedster that he is very fast ( he has shown though insane reflexes ). That is why i Say more or less equal, because feats are more or less equal to hype ( IMO ).
I don't know if kage bunshin is a big factor in this match-up. Raikage hasn't shown he is able to do it ( but he probably can ). Jiraiya has shown bunshin in sm. I don't know what to say about how much of a factor this is.


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I was also using Shunshin as an example because it's the one you brought up. My main point is when Rank doesn't matter there is always a reason provided for why the technique is scalable, which is not provided in the case of Frog Katas; in the manga or Data-book.



Frog Kata is a Senjutsu based Taijutsu move. Doesn't it make sense some users of this technique would be more efficient with than others? Just because it's not stated doesn't mean we can't employ some common sense here. 

It's a just Taijutsu style when you get down to it. Two different characters using the same style can better with it or worse with it. 




> From what I can recall in my skimming of the DB for interesting stuff, there was nothing worth note in Jiriaya's profile, but maybe this weekened when I have some more time i'll take a second look.


Alright, cool.




> The problem I have with this is it was never indicated in the manga cannon that to perform Frog-Katas the way Naruto does, greater efficiency is necessary or that the technique is scalable.
> 
> For example Sasuke is more skilled at shape manipulation than Itachi, but is his Grand-Fireball technique any better because of it, no, because the tech doesn't scale off of shape manipulation. There's nothing that indicates Frog Katas scales off of ones skill with manipulating natural energy.
> 
> ...


Lot's of things aren't directly stated by the author yet many people believe them to be true around here. I do value your opinion on these matters Turrin so I'll definitely consider what you've put forth here. 

Yeah, I got the Paths mixed up there. Human Path seems less durable to me than Preta Path based off their physiques alone. Human Path looks thin while Preta Path is more stocky. Of course this line of thinking doesn't always apply in fiction, but it's logical. A good place to start.

And Human Path is more Taijutsu oriented but that doesn't automatically mean he's more durable. If Human Path is really an expert in close-quarters combat his Taijutsu skill would allow him to _avoid_ taking too many hits by reading his opponent's next move and evading while also incorporating some blocks. Like anyone proficient in the art of Taijutsu. 

I won't deny that Human Path is the more geared towards Taijutsu while Preta Path his more geared towards dealing with Ninjutsu. But remember Preta Path can drain chakra via direct contact with his opponents, so he must possess some decent skill in close-quarters combat himself. He proved that when he dodged Sage Naruto's punch.

The reason why I think Jiraiya was using Frog Kata there is because he's listed as a user of the technique. We didn't see the extension of chakra in the instances Jiraiya used Frog Kata because his strikes never missed. Plus, when Jiraiya went after Human Path he says, _"He can't even see my *Sennin Mode attacks* and, he's still..."_

This may imply Frog Kata was used there. Or Kishi could've pulled a retcon with Frog Kata. I'm not really sure.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I Haven't insulted you more than you did, but still that is not important.
> I did not call you a troll, I said you are a little bit exaggerating because you see the gaps being enormous.



u did insult me in the jiraiya vs rookie match up. the word troll was used. so stop claiming otherwise 



> I was talking about Sm Naruto war arc, but of course before Juubito and Juubidara, where everyone got an immense boost
> No, Jiraiya cannot run circles around Raikage, I mean I do not think it that way, maybe I am wrong.
> But they have both more or less equal speed ( judging by the feats in Manga ).
> Jiraiya has shown speed that could easily give him a 5 in stats, Raikage did not show that speed, but he was praised by a speedster that he is very fast ( he has shown though insane reflexes ). That is why i Say more or less equal, because feats are more or less equal to hype ( IMO ).



as was I. and war arc can pull of COFRS. pain arc could not.  u arent wrong. raikage is faster. how is he goign be running round a faster opponent. 

sorry please show me any panel that indicates jiriaya has shown speed that could give him 5. then what i would do is compare it to the other 5's. people only get 5 in speed when its their method of fighting. it isnt jiraiya's so he isnt goign to get a 5. 

the raikage however was called fast by KCM naruto and basically has a speed enhancing mode. so does jiriaya mind u. but if j man get can a 5 so can raikage



> I don't know if kage bunshin is a big factor in this match-up. Raikage hasn't shown he is able to do it ( but he probably can ). Jiraiya has shown bunshin in sm. I don't know what to say about how much of a factor this is.



its  factor and one that i myself brought up despite arguing against Jman winning. 

i said jiraiya using kb 

raikage cant use bunshin how could u misunderstand who i was referring 2. 

bunshin is a factor because its a very good diversion. raikage pics the wrong guy to target and the real jiriaya has gained distance. can get up traps etc. 

though the bunshin doesnt seem to have the toads on their shoulders so perhaps its not that good of a tactic 



@thunder i swear if it was possible ill rep you again. your last comment is spot on. I doubt it was a retcon however. thats mostly a cheap excuse and sounds like butthurt. frog katas is only as strong as the person hitting u. if u can tank the person punch the ghost punch would be tanked equally. the taijutsu style just ensures u never miss ur target

ps: having re-read jiriaya fight if jiriaya has knowledge he cant possibly loose. however why i think he might is that initial exchange where he doesnt realize that the raikage is going to tank his attack and impale him. sort of like danzo with izanagi surprise on the first respawn. 

if jiraiya can successful evade injury before he realizes he needs stall tactics then he wins 11 times out of 10

what is silly to assume or agree to is frog katas= cant be hit. when RCM gave Ei the ability to side step amaterasu yet can be caught by a madara clone. 

no jutsu allows a  person to never be hit


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry please show me any panel that indicates jiriaya has shown speed that could give him 5. then what i would do is compare it to the other 5's. people only get 5 in speed when its their method of fighting. it isnt jiraiya's so he isnt goign to get a 5.
> 
> the raikage however was called fast by KCM naruto and basically has a speed enhancing mode. so does jiriaya mind u. but if j man get can a 5 so can raikage



Sage Jiraiya looked pretty impressive speed-wise to me. He blitzed Animal Path despite the shared vision of the Rinnegan from this distance.

Then he jumped and formed Chō Ōdama Rasengan before his geta hit the ground as you can see here. 

I  don't think it's a stretch to say Sage Jiraiya has a perfect speed stat when  base Jiraiya already has a 4.5. When you reach the highest stat there's  going to be wide range of tiers in that one number. You've got fighters  like Itachi and A covered under the same number but obviously A is much  faster. 



> @thunder i swear if it was possible ill rep you again. your last comment is spot on. I doubt it was a retcon however. thats mostly a cheap excuse and sounds like butthurt. frog katas is only as strong as the person hitting u. if u can tank the person punch the ghost punch would be tanked equally. the taijutsu style just ensures u never miss ur target
> 
> ps: having re-read jiriaya fight if jiriaya has knowledge he cant possibly loose. however why i think he might is that initial exchange where he doesnt realize that the raikage is going to tank his attack and impale him. sort of like danzo with izanagi surprise on the first respawn.
> 
> if jiraiya can successful evade injury before he realizes he needs stall tactics then he wins 11 times out of 10


Thanks man. Only reason why I'm entertaining the possibility of a retcon is because of how inconsistent Kishi is. Kinda odd how we didn't get a full Frog Kata illustration and explanation until Naruto used it. Before that we were just told Senjutsu enhances your Taijutsu. That it. 

You don't have to agree it's just something to consider.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Sage Jiraiya looked pretty impressive speed-wise to me. He blitzed Animal Path despite the shared vision of the Rinnegan from this distance.



agreed. but not more impressive than dodging FRS twice. the first time he didnt even activate his shroud till point blank range 



> Then he jumped and formed Chō Ōdama Rasengan before his geta hit the ground as you can see here.



that was impressive 



> I  don't think it's a stretch to say Sage Jiraiya has a perfect speed stat when  base Jiraiya already has a 4.5. When you reach the highest stat there's  going to be wide range of tiers in that one number. You've got fighters  like Itachi and A covered under the same number but obviously A is much  faster.



agreed but if he is the sandaime is 



> Thanks man. Only reason why I'm entertaining the possibility of a retcon is because of how inconsistent Kishi is. Kinda odd how we didn't get a full Frog Kata illustration and explanation until Naruto used it. Before that we were just told Senjutsu enhances your Taijutsu. That it.



well we couldnt. i dont believe its a retcon at all. because jiraiya didnt have the strength to 1 shot them with taijutsu. something that means he is within their striking range. he woudl be putting himself in danger

even naruto cant beat 3 paths of pain with just taijutsu



> You don't have to agree it's just something to consider.



i get u. btw very welcome. i am glad someone isnt going on making it feel like i come here to actively troll just because i dont agree with overt fan bias


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## Duhul10 (Apr 1, 2015)

Well he had 4.5 in base and Sm vastly increases his speed.
He was really fast when he kicked animal path  and when he launched the rasengan. His animal position was increasing his agility too. He surely was a 5 in speed


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

i have no doubt. he can have 6 if thats what is important. 
what i am saying is if he has 5 or 6 so does the raikage

the difference here is at the start of battle with no knowledge jiraiya would make the mistake of comign in close. 
while what he needs to do is gain distance. 

coming in close only helps him loose


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## Duhul10 (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i have no doubt. he can have 6 if thats what is important.
> what i am saying is if he has 5 or 6 so does the raikage
> 
> the difference here is at the start of battle with no knowledge jiraiya would make the mistake of comign in close.
> ...



correct, distance is pretty much important


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

actually with no knowledge its not. he will engage the raikage at close range. 
probably starts with goemon which is ran through and raikage is already in his face. i dont see why he would jump back. he would probably try rasengan or something. the longer he exposes himself within raikage reach 
the more likely he is to die 

but like i said give both knowledge and  SM jiriaya wins. off the bat. he runs away and sets up as many traps and distractions as possible


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Just wanted to point out that A the forth made a huge omg hole with his laiga bomb i never knew it was that huge 

look at the size of it in this panel 

here


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> agreed. but not more impressive than dodging FRS twice. the first time he didnt even activate his shroud till point blank range



Definitely. A is faster than Jiraiya. It's not something that's debatable. I'm just saying Jiraiya is fast enough where he can evade A. Also take Sage Sensing into account. We have several examples of slower characters competing with faster ones in this manga.

Dodging FRS is impressive. But as soon as Naruto used distractions he hit A. Jiraiya can do the same.


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## Turrin (Apr 1, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Frog Kata is a Senjutsu based Taijutsu move. Doesn't it make sense some users of this technique would be more efficient with than others? Just because it's not stated doesn't mean we can't employ some common sense here.
> 
> It's a just Taijutsu style when you get down to it. Two different characters using the same style can better with it or worse with it.


More efficiently yes, but some people can use a Kunai more efficiently, it doesn't mean the Kunai is made better, which is what i'm saying. Frog Katas is the same for all users, nothing indicates is different, however users can use it more efficiently depending on their other skills and intelligence.



> Yeah, I got the Paths mixed up there. Human Path seems less durable to me than Preta Path based off their physiques alone. Human Path looks thin while Preta Path is more stocky. Of course this line of thinking doesn't always apply in fiction, but it's logical. A good place to start.
> 
> And Human Path is more Taijutsu oriented but that doesn't automatically mean he's more durable. If Human Path is really an expert in close-quarters combat his Taijutsu skill would allow him to avoid taking too many hits by reading his opponent's next move and evading while also incorporating some blocks. Like anyone proficient in the art of Taijutsu.


The problem is the argument rests on HG-Realm being >= to Human Realm in durability, which isn't provable. On top of that Kishi does some wierd ass shit with the path's durability. Like Deva tanking his ST reflected back at him smashing into a clif and being hit by a partial TBB, but than later being defeated by a Base-Rasengan. So as of right now this doesn't seem reliable enough to assert one Frog-Katas is better than the other.

Than there is also this:



> . Or Kishi could've pulled a retcon with Frog Kata. I'm not really sure.


Which is what i truly believe occured, as in the Pain vs Jiraiya battle Jiriaya, Fusaku, and Shima conclude Taijutsu won't work on shared vision, but than we blantly see Frog Katas is perfect against shared vision in the naruto battle. This makes me believe Kishi hadnt even thought up Frog Katas yet.


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## Thunder (Apr 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> More efficiently yes, but some people can use a Kunai more efficiently, it doesn't mean the Kunai is made better, which is what i'm saying. Frog Katas is the same for all users, nothing indicates is different, however users can use it more efficiently depending on their other skills and intelligence.



I don't think comparing a weapon like a kunai to a style of Taijutsu works here. Why not compare Frog Kata to other established styles of Taijutsu in the manga? Like Jūken or Gōken. Or even Nintaijutsu. A and the Sandaime Raikage (I've just been calling him A in this thread because it's easier, and apparently all the Raikage share the title of "A") use the same aura technique to a different degree of mastery. 



> The problem is the argument rests on HG-Realm being >= to Human Realm in durability, which isn't provable. On top of that Kishi does some wierd ass shit with the path's durability. Like Deva tanking his ST reflected back at him smashing into a clif and being hit by a partial TBB, but than later being defeated by a Base-Rasengan. So as of right now this doesn't seem reliable enough to assert one Frog-Katas is better than the other.


I realize there isn't much proof on that either way (just threw it in there because what the heck, why not), which is why I provided two other more solid points for you to consider. You've still got to take into account kicks are stronger than punches, along with the fact Naruto didn't connect with his fist and still managed to break the neck of a Path while Jiraiya connected with the kick and only managed to blind the Path. 

Not to knock on Jiraiya's feat because it was very impressive. The seven orbital bones that encase the eye sockets are pretty strong.



> Than there is also this:
> 
> 
> Which is what i truly believe occured, as in the Pain vs Jiraiya battle Jiriaya, Fusaku, and Shima conclude Taijutsu won't work on shared vision, but than we blantly see Frog Katas is perfect against shared vision in the naruto battle. This makes me believe Kishi hadnt even thought up Frog Katas yet.


It's kinda hard to tell since we can't get into Kishi's mind so I won't press the argument. So long as you acknowledge the possibility Frog Kata wasn't retconned I'm good.


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> I don't think comparing a weapon like a kunai to a style of Taijutsu works here. Why not compare Frog Kata to other established styles of Taijutsu in the manga? Like Jūken or Gōken. Or even Nintaijutsu. A and the Sandaime Raikage (I've just been calling him A in this thread because it's easier, and apparently all the Raikage share the title of "A") use the same aura technique to a different degree of mastery.


I can compare it to those techniques as well. When Gai does Leaf Whirlwind he does it better than Lee, but not because the technique itself is better, but because his spd and str are better. That's a matter of efficiency, not the technique being scalable, which is something like Okasho becoming stronger the more chakra put into it.

In the case of the RNY example, I don't see any evidence Ei's RNY is better than Sandaime's RNY. Ei is faster, but that is because his base reflexes are better than Sandaime's, matching the Yellow-Flashes, not because his RNY is better. Again the difference between efficiency and scalability.

No one's Frog Katas are better than anyone else, because the technique doesn't scale. However individuals can use it more efficiently based on their other attributes. The issue with Jiraiya and Naruto in this specific comparison [evasion], I don't see how Naruto's other attributes are superior to Jiraiaya's. As previously discussed I feel SM-Naruto would be lucky if his spd/reflexes were equal to SM-Jiriaya, let alone surpassing SM-Jiriaya, considering he already starts from a place of multiple tier inferiority.



> I realize there isn't much proof on that either way (just threw it in there because what the heck, why not), which is why I provided two other more solid points for you to consider. You've still got to take into account kicks are stronger than punches, along with the fact Naruto didn't connect with his fist and still managed to break the neck of a Path while Jiraiya connected with the kick and only managed to blind the Path.


A kick being stronger than a punch is not something I'm doubting. What I am doubting is that the difference in displays can't be attributed to A) Human-Realm being more durable,  B) Kishi's general inconsistency when it comes to the durability of the paths, as illustrated by the Deva-Realm examples, and/or C) Whether Kishi actually thought up the concept of Frog-Katas at the time of Jiriaya vs Pain. Due to those three factors I don't find comparing these two feats to be necessarily a reliable estimate of their skill in Frog-Katas, so far as being the proof necessary to assert Frog Katas being scalable, when otherwise nothing else in the story indicates such, despite Kishi having ample oppertunity in the story and other sources (Data-books, Fan-books, etc...) to indicate such.



> It's kinda hard to tell since we can't get into Kishi's mind so I won't press the argument. So long as you acknowledge the possibility Frog Kata wasn't retconned I'm good.


Well let's put it this way, ether it's a retecon or Kishi gave Fusaku, Shima, and Jiriaya PIS so they'd forget about Frog Katas. Ether way it demonstrates Frog Katas was never something Kishi had Jiriaya to utilize in that battle, as otherwise he would have not said Taijutsu can't work against Shared vision and opted for Genjutsu.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Because I don't see any indication that his trainings would have boosted Base-Speed significantly. SM training amounted to him spending most of time meditating. He did spar with Fusaku a bit in SM, but is that going to make him a-lot better in speed, I really doubt it. Than the Kyuubi training was simply him fighting in different mindscapes against himself or Kurama, than moving around blocks with chakra arms, and than trying to form TBB, again nothing there that would indicate boosts to base capabilities.


And how do you think Naruto's speed improved in Part 1. Chakra control training and physical training/fighting. Sage Mode training had Naruto's body going through both physical and chakra-related transformations. Spar with Fukusaku. Finishing FRS. Pushed by Pain. Briefly went against Deva in Base and while completely on defensive still fared decently. And Deva's speed performance is a good deal better than Jiraiya's unsupported DB stat.
Next training you have crazy chakra control. And Naruto eventually learning to control biju-lvl Shunshin. Which should enhance his Base Shunshin at least a little bit.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

I dont believe Frog katas was rectonned. jiriaya knew it wouldnt work because *his physical strength* could not 1 shot the bodies. as proven when he kicked one in the face and it got up.

unlike naruto who could physically kill them with a punch. 

So its not frog katas works on shared vision therefore kishi retconned it. frog katas is based on the persons strength and is perfectly scalable. not one taijutsu based ability isnt 

hiashi air palm vs neji and hinata. very scalable right there. he has more chakra (something naruto has more than jiriaya) and more skill at using said chakra (something naruto has again) 

which make naruto physically stronger and all the rest. his base abilities can be lower as they are however the more sage mode u gather the stronger u are. regardless of ur base abilities. give konohamaru the ability to gather enough sage mode and he becomes kage level despite his puny base abilities. 

any jutsu requiring chakra to use is scalable. quality and quantity. what do you think thunder. i know turrin is just going to throw a hissy fit here


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And how do you think Naruto's speed improved in Part 1. Chakra control training and physical training/fighting. Sage Mode training had Naruto's body going through both physical and chakra-related transformations. Spar with Fukusaku. Finishing FRS. Pushed by Pain. Briefly went against Deva in Base and while completely on defensive still fared decently. And Deva's speed performance is a good deal better than Jiraiya's unsupported DB stat.
> Next training you have crazy chakra control. And Naruto eventually learning to control biju-lvl Shunshin. Which should enhance his Base Shunshin at least a little bit.


The difference between Part I and Part II, is the quantity. In Part I Naruto trains physically exerting himself to the point of collapsing for entire months at a time.  In the time period of Part II your citing, Naruto trains for a single week for SM and than the rest of his training in turtle island arc takes place largely in his mind or doing un exerting things like moving around blocks. He did start to exert himself more when learning TBB, but that training lasted for a few hours before he was interrupted and left to goto the front lines. So were talking about at best 1 1/2 weeks of high physical exertion and even that is stretching things. Versus 2 Months in Part I. 

And it should be easer to climb the lower rankings, than it should be to climb the higher ones, I.E. getting to a 3 from 2, should be easier than getting from a 3.5 to a 4.5. As illustrated by Naruto's spd only increasing by .5 over the entire 2.5 year time-skip, versus it increasing by 1 over the course of Part I. 

So basically in Part I we have Naruto doing signficantly more physical exertion to achieve an easeri goal. While in Part II we have Naruto doing significantly less physical exertion to achieve a harder goal. 

That's why I can't see Base-Naruto's physical abilities increasing anywhere near the amount they increased in Part I, during the time period your citing. I'll grant you that he could be a bit better, but there is indication that clones are a bit worse, so at best I'd think those things balance out.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

@turrin u not replying my points anymore? have i made you sad? 

u dont take someone disagreeing with u well. 

so one more time base abilities are irrelevant to sage mode boost. the same way they are to naruto KCM or BM modes


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I can compare it to those techniques as well. When Gai does Leaf Whirlwind he does it better than Lee, but not because the technique itself is better, but because his spd and str are better. That's a matter of efficiency, not the technique being scalable, which is something like Okasho becoming stronger the more chakra put into it.



Leaf Whirlwind is a one kick. Frog Kata is an entire branch of fighting for Sages. With Frog Kata you're manipulating chakra around your body. 

When you're talking about an entire style of Taijutsu speed and strength aren't the _only_ factors. That's simplifying things too much. Let's look at base Gai and. V2 A for example. Is A _stronger_ than base Gai? Check. Is A _faster_ than base Gai? Check. Is A more skilled in the art of Taijutsu than A? No way.



> In the case of the RNY example, I don't see any evidence Ei's RNY is better than Sandaime's RNY. Ei is faster, but that is because his base reflexes are better than Sandaime's, matching the Yellow-Flashes, not because his RNY is better. Again the difference between efficiency and scalability.


It's not the best example. I'm just reminding you of the chakra aura component in Frog Kata because you were comparing it to kunai.

Comparing Frog Kata to something like Ōkashō      (like you mentioned) or Jūken (like I mentioned) makes more sense. 

Whenever chakra is thrown into the mix you're going to see differences in skill between two fighters who use the same style (or a similar one) because _chakra control_ and _chakra quality_ are now factors. 



> No one's Frog Katas are better than anyone else, because the technique doesn't scale. However individuals can use it more efficiently based on their other attributes. The issue with Jiraiya and Naruto in this specific comparison [evasion], I don't see how Naruto's other attributes are superior to Jiraiaya's. As previously discussed I feel SM-Naruto would be lucky if his spd/reflexes were equal to SM-Jiriaya, let alone surpassing SM-Jiriaya, considering he already starts from a place of multiple tier inferiority.


We don't know that for sure. What evidence is there that Frog Kata doesn't scale? We only have two examples in the manga to draw from and you believe Jiraiya never used it. Which is fine. But there really isn't enough evidence either way. Just because Kishimoto didn't directly say some users of Frog Kata can be better than others doesn't mean much to me. We know Kishi isn't very consistent and we know he doesn't mention every little detail about a technique. It makes more sense to me that Frog Kata can be scaled because that seems to be the norm. 

Saying the individual is the main factor here and not the technique is just arguing semantics. _All_ jutsu and styles are influenced by the medium through which they manifest. _Both_ are relevant and intrinsically tied to one another. 

If you feel Naruto's Frog Kata is superior because of his speed and power the end result is the sameーNaruto has superior Frog Kata. 



> A kick being stronger than a punch is not something I'm doubting. What I am doubting is that the difference in displays can't be attributed to A) Human-Realm being more durable,  B) Kishi's general inconsistency when it comes to the durability of the paths, as illustrated by the Deva-Realm examples, and/or C) Whether Kishi actually thought up the concept of Frog-Katas at the time of Jiriaya vs Pain. Due to those three factors I don't find comparing these two feats to be necessarily a reliable estimate of their skill in Frog-Katas, so far as being the proof necessary to assert Frog Katas being scalable, when otherwise nothing else in the story indicates such, despite Kishi having ample oppertunity in the story and other sources (Data-books, Fan-books, etc...) to indicate such.


If you maintain Jiraiya _wasn't_ using Frog Kata when he fought Pain we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter man. There's not enough hard evidence to go on. I'm not entirely convinced it was a retcon and you're not entirely convinced it wasn't. Both viewpoints are valid.

I'm waiting for others to chime in here. We know how you and I feel about Frog Kata and we know how Icegaze feels about Frog Kata, but I don't think anyone else has participated in the discussion. I'm not a fan of using the majority rules argument myself but it would be nice to see some other viewpoints.



> Well let's put it this way, ether it's a retecon or Kishi gave Fusaku, Shima, and Jiriaya PIS so they'd forget about Frog Katas. Ether way it demonstrates Frog Katas was never something Kishi had Jiriaya to utilize in that battle, as otherwise he would have not said Taijutsu can't work against Shared vision and opted for Genjutsu.


Well, if we're trying to view this from an author's standpoint, maybe Kishi just wanted to show us Frog Song. I don't know.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

Well i feel i have contributed far too much into this thread. so yes hearing someone else would be good. all attacks that are chakra based are of course scalable there is no way to avoid it. jukken is a perfect example. 
hiashi air palm is leaps and bounds stronger than both hinata and neji combined. right there that is scale!

Thunder what do you think about the fact that jiriaya retreated from using taijutsu because it was already shown he didnt have the strength to kill a path even after a direct hit. unlike naruto

though one must note naruto used taijutsu once. and never tried the same thing again. so i think the excuse that frog katas was a retcon because jiriaya didnt try it is false for 3 reasons
1) he did. its taijutsu. he threw a punch
2) even if human path avoided his fist and the ghost punch connected. human path wont have died. 
3) its a trick that wont work twice.  this was illustrated by naruto only engaging in taijutsu directly once.


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2015)

Those are all excellent points Icegaze. Naruto only disabled one Pain Path with Frog Kata. It didn't clinch the match for him or anything. 

About Jiraiya retreating, it supports the argument Jiraiya's Frog Kata wasn't strong enough in my view.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

@thunder 
Excellent point. Always thought that thats why when people were screaming retcon due to jiraiya being listed as a  katas user i was like why wont he be one. it made sense to me


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## Sadgoob (Apr 2, 2015)

Jiraiya specifically said that taijutsu wouldn't work because shared vision prevented his attacks from landing even in smoke, and Preta absorbed ninjutsu. Hence him saying only genjutsu would do it.

Had he had Frog Katas, he wouldn't have said that, because we know Pain can't see or anticipate Frog Katas. He wouldn't need smoke bombs to begin with.​


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jiraiya specifically said that taijutsu wouldn't work because shared vision prevented his attacks from landing even in smoke, and Preta absorbed ninjutsu. Hence him saying only genjutsu would do it.
> 
> Had he had Frog Katas, he wouldn't have said that, because we know Pain can't see or anticipate Frog Katas.​



Valid point.

Jiraiya is listed as a user of Frog Kata in Databook IV which is why  there's some confusion here. Do you think Kishi just messed up there? 

I suppose it's possible Ma and Pa are counted as users.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Jiraiya specifically said that taijutsu wouldn't work because shared vision prevented his attacks from landing even in smoke, and Preta absorbed ninjutsu. Hence him saying only genjutsu would do it.
> 
> Had he had Frog Katas, he wouldn't have said that, because we know Pain can't see or anticipate Frog Katas.​



he said that because. 1 he cant kill a path with a direct hit. as shown when he kicked one
also taijutsu in sage mode employs frog katas. by very definition jiriaya has it. now he might not have been as good at using it. but he did have it. 

Naruto also did not engage in taijutsu after the first time it was used. difference was preta dodged. human path blocked. the paths didnt need to dodge jiraiya or wouldnt have so ghost punches would not have mattered. 

yes the paths could not have anticiapted a ghost punch, but again no need to if u are blocking. 
secondly jiriaya hitting them directly with a punch or kick cant kill them


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## Alex Payne (Apr 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Valid point.
> 
> Jiraiya is listed as a user of Frog Kata in Databook IV which is why  there's some confusion here. Do you think Kishi just messed up there?
> 
> I suppose it's possible Ma and Pa are counted as users.


Kishi in DB3 messed up in Jiraiya's Goemon entry:


> Sage Art: Goemon* (仙法・五右衛門, Senpou: Goemon)
> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu, No rank, Offensive, All ranges
> Users: Jiraiya, Fukasaku, Shima
> 
> ...




And in DB4 there was several errors such as Danzo not being listed as a Summoner. So the chance of a simple mistake is high imo.


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## Icegaze (Apr 2, 2015)

doubtful. 
difference between mixing up who perfomed what jutsu in a collaboration and adding someone as a user of a jutsu
kakashi isnt listed as PS susanoo user
nor is sasuke if i recall. despite them being users 

danzo not being a summoner etc. 

I doubt it was a mistake because minato isnt listed as a frog katas user. why include jiriaya in the mix if it wasnt intentional. Also it being C rank is kishi way of saying if u can go sage mode, its easy to learn 

in any case even if he had and used it. he would have died against those 3. he couldnt punch and kill them


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## Thunder (Apr 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Kishi in DB3 messed up in Jiraiya's Goemon entry:
> 
> 
> 
> And in DB4 there was several errors such as Danzo not being listed as a Summoner. So the chance of a simple mistake is high imo.



Wow. I didn't know that. Take a rep.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he said that because. 1 he cant kill a path with a direct hit.



If he believed that, then why did he try to hit the Path again with taijutsu via smoke bomb? He blinded a path with taijutsu, so why not blind the other two? Because couldn't shake shared vision.

Why couldn't he shake shared vision with taijutsu thereafter? Because he didn't have Naruto's Katas, which we know shared vision can't detect. Hence him saying only his genjutsu would work.​


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## Duhul10 (Apr 2, 2015)

His morals about His taijutsu were decreasing after he was Blocked even if the path was blindsided, so he gave up on that. 
And practically you suggest that he should have fought Hoping to Miss the target for surprise? Those tricks are not Jiraiya's style, never.
Imo, it was plot too, because if Kishi would have shown every sage tech right Off the bat, there wouldn't have been Any surprise and badassery left for Naruto&Co. ( other examples: dust cloud, frog call)
Now that db4 is out, there should be no more discussion abut this, but in order to underrate Jiraiya.some people are still hanging to this idea


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## Turrin (Apr 2, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Leaf Whirlwind is a one kick. Frog Kata is an entire branch of fighting for Sages. With Frog Kata you're manipulating chakra around your body.
> .


Frog Katas isn't manipulating an invisible Aura, it's a release of natural energy from one part of the body to extend ones reach. So it's not like having more delicate manipulation of natural energy matters, as it's just a rough release, that requires C-Rank skill after enter Sennin Modo. So perhaps that's part of the reason why were not seeing eye to eye here.



> When you're talking about an entire style of Taijutsu speed and strength aren't the only factors. That's simplifying things too much. Let's look at base Gai and. V2 A for example. Is A stronger than base Gai? Check. Is A faster than base Gai? Check. Is A more skilled in the art of Taijutsu than A? No way.


Here I think your misinterpreting my view. What I don't think is different from Frog Kata user to Frog Kata user is the potency/range of the Ghost Punches and Danger Sensing, because nothing indicates they are scalable.

I do however believe someone can use Frog Katas more effectively than someone else, which comes down to other factors such as spd, reflexes, str, and taijutsu skill. However in this instance I don't see any indication that Naruto is better than Jiraiya in any of those things. Heck he'd be lucky if he's as good as Jiriaya, considering he starts at a point of multiple tier inferiority in all of these areas; perhaps less so with Taijutsu since he trained in Taijutsu w/ Fusaku, but even than I doubt he went up two tiers from a days worth of training.



> We don't know that for sure. What evidence is there that Frog Kata doesn't scale?


My problem is can you explain to me the difference between this idea your posing and fanfiction. I'm not trying to be rude here, but the idea of it scaling is an idea that you and some other fans for all intents and purposes made up, as nothing in the manga or supplementary material states that it can scale or even remotely suggests it has that mechanic, despite the author having an extremely ample amount of oppertunity to demonstrate such. 

For example what is the difference between what you just asserted, and me saying well because Jiriaya is fused with Fusaku and Shima each of their Danger Sensing harmonize and create a Danger Sensing 3x more potent than the Danger Sensing any individual Sage can produce on their own? Than just saying well since you can't prove it doesn't exist, despite nothing in the manga stating or supporting this premise, it's still equally as plausible that it does exist as it doesn't exist.

That does not seem like a fair way to discuss a point to me. Can I prove 100% that it does not scale, no, and it's possible that it does scales, However there should be acknowledgement that this is just a made up concept that is ultimately less likely than it simply not scaling.



> It makes more sense to me that Frog Kata can be scaled because that seems to be the norm.


Scaling really isn't confirmed as the norm. We've seen Jutsu that can scale and others that can't. According to the manga there Tens of Thousands of Jutsu in the verse, and we have no means of averaging out how many scale and how many do not, to find out which one is the norm. 

What I can say is the norm is that usually if a Jutsu does scale, Kishi states that in the Manga-Cannon or additional source material. I mean can you provide a good sample size of Jutsu that scale, but do not have direct DB/FB or Manga statements about their mechanics indicating they scale?



> Saying the individual is the main factor here and not the technique is just arguing semantics. All jutsu and styles are influenced by the medium through which they manifest. Both are relevant and intrinsically tied to one another.


I do not believe it to be arguing symanetics in this instance as it's key to the conversation topic at hand. Because if it's the individual that is using the technique more efficiently, than we need to talk about how Jiraiya and Naruto stack up in spd, reflexes, and taijutsu to determine who is better. If it's the technique that's scalable than we need to talk about how the techniques scales and in what ways it scales to determine who is better.



> If you feel Naruto's Frog Kata is superior because of his speed and power the end result is the sameーNaruto has superior Frog Kata.


See I don't think Naruto's speed or power are superior though as Base-Jiriaya is multiple tiers better than Base-Naruto in these areas. So I think SM-Naruto would be lucky if he's equivalent to SM-Jiriaya in these areas, and actually that is me being as fair as possible, because in reality I think there is a good argument that SM-Jiraiya is actually better in these areas.



> If you maintain Jiraiya wasn't using Frog Kata when he fought Pain we'll have to agree to disagree on the matter man. There's not enough hard evidence to go on. I'm not entirely convinced it was a retcon and you're not entirely convinced it wasn't. Both viewpoints are valid.


The problem is both view points are not valid. Jiriaya, Fusaku, and Shima specifically say Taijutsu won't work against Shared vision. But than in the Pain vs Naruto fight we see Taijutsu working against Shared vision. Ghost Punches work against Shared vision, period, which contradicts the combined conclusion of Fusaku, Shima and Jiriaya. This is not something we one can simply write off as we don't know if they used it or not, because the statement tells us directly that they did not. The only question is why did they not even consider it as option. Given Jiriaya is stated to have such an ability in the DB, there are only three reasons why they wouldn't consider it, A) Kishi PIS'd them into forgetting about the skill, B) Kishi hadn't thought of the skill yet, or C) Kishi retecon'd in DBIV giving Jiriaya the skill post-mortem. That statement and the inclusion of Jiriaya in the DB as a user does not allow for any other interpretations to take place.



Alex Payne said:


> Kishi in DB3 messed up in Jiraiya's Goemon entry:
> 
> And in DB4 there was several errors such as Danzo not being listed as a Summoner. So the chance of a simple mistake is high imo.



I don't see how it can be a mistake, conceptually that is. Forgetting someone used something is inherently different than Kishi sitting down and deciding that he's going to include Jiriaya as a user of something he never showed Jiraiya use on panel. Kishi made a conscious choice to include Jiriaya as a user and therefore he believed Jiriaya shoould have that skill, thus in essence granting it to him through the word of god. The only mistake that could exist there is Kishi not thinking about how this creates plot holes in the pain fight, but that's the essence of what a retecon is and just because Kishi retecon'd it later on doesn't mean we don't take the retecon into account. I mean it's not like we ignore the retecon the multitude of other retecons Kishi had done throughout the years as they create plots holes.

Additionally the fact that Kishi gave Frog Katas the C-Rank also supports that Jiriaya would have it, as it's not some master Senjutsu skill, it's an extremely basic one, that it fits logically that someone who trained with Fusaku and Shima for as long as Jiriaya would have.

And it's not like Kishi did not do this in any other entry, rather there are other entries in the Data-books where Kishi takes that oppertunity to indicate a character that never used the technique on panel was also a user off it. Just to pull an another example directly from DBIV, he lists Spiral as the a user of Mokujin even though Spiral only used Shin Suusenju on panel. But much like Jiriaya and Frog Katas, everything about Spiral's abilities and Mokujin's entry fits with him being able to use Mokujin, so it makes sense that he's capable of it even though he didn't show it on panel.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2015)

I'm sorry, but I don't feel like continuing this debate Turrin. I don't feel we're getting somewhere here. We're just going in circles. Nothing you've said so far has convinced me that all Frog Kata are created equal. A view that's just as much of a "fanfiction" as mine considering the matter was never confirmed by the author. This stuff is subjective. I'm entitled to my own interpretation of this manga as you are.

Also, I'm still unsure if Jiraiya knows Frog Kata to begin with. Alex Payne reminded me the Databooks aren't always accurate when it comes to jutsu users. Kishi could've messed up, could be a retcon, or Jiraiya's Frog Kata may be slighter weaker than Naruto's. I would certainly _like_ for Jiraiya to have Frog Kata so I remain optimistic.

In any case I don't see Frog Kata being relevant in this match-up. Sensing is going to be more useful to Jiraiya here and we more or less agree on that.

So this is my last reply on the matter of Frog Kata (man I'm sick of typing Frog Kata). Good debate.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Frog Katas isn't manipulating an invisible Aura, it's a release of natural energy from one part of the body to extend ones reach. So it's not like having more delicate manipulation of natural energy matters, as it's just a rough release, that requires C-Rank skill after enter Sennin Modo. So perhaps that's part of the reason why were not seeing eye to eye here.



Erm no.



Notice the underlined word. I suppose the translation could be way off base (it isn't the viz), but I doubt that as what you said here doesn't make much sense if I correctly understand the mechanics of Senjutsu.

Naruto is indeed manipulating an invisible aura. That aura is the natural energy which is everywhere:



Naruto has no pure natural energy in his body to release. What he takes in is _perfectly balanced_ with physical & spiritual energies to form Senjutsu chakra, which is what is required to even be in Sage Mode in the first place.

The C-Rank skill is being capable of shaping and moving the surrounding energy in general, which Jiraiya probably is to a degree, but I don't see why Naruto couldn't be superior at that without it being related to other factors such as speed & boxing skill.

I believe that was Thunder's point.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If he believed that, then why did he try to hit the Path again with taijutsu via smoke bomb? He blinded a path with taijutsu, so why not blind the other two? Because couldn't shake shared vision.
> 
> Why couldn't he shake shared vision with taijutsu thereafter? Because he didn't have Naruto's Katas, which we know shared vision can't detect. Hence him saying only his genjutsu would work.​



 he only believed taijutsu wont work after he tried it and failed. after the punch. 

he never attempted taijutsu again. seriously!! 

so i dont get ur not intelligent question

ghost punch only becomes relevant if the victim dodges. the paths didnt dodge jiriaya they could block and he knew that. without ghost punch its just regular taijutsu. 

something he couldnt have used to kill 3 paths when 1 of them could block him while blind.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 3, 2015)

Agreed, Icegaze
Imo it was plot too, because if every sage tech would have been shown right of the bat, there wouldn't have been Any surprise and badassery  left for Naruto&sages ( other examples : dust Cloud, frog Call )
I even made a thread about this like a month ago and Most of the people posted agreed that Jiraiya has Frog katas.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

yh but i think people put too much emphasis on it. naruto showed it once then never tried it again against pain why not?

frankly speaking frog katas even as a retcon which its not.  does not improve jiraiya abilities in the slightest. 

as for the match up. its entirely useless offensively. while defensively its a heck of a skill to have. however he will never be running circles round raikage like some have claimed. 

i noticed you are alot less troll and more calm. good to know. A long way from stone sword can harm the raikage. 
imma rep u


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Erm no.
> 
> 
> 
> Notice the underlined word. I suppose the translation could be way off base (it isn't the viz), but I doubt that as what you said here doesn't make much sense if I correctly understand the mechanics of Senjutsu.


I don't see how this contradicts the DB. Natural energy exists in the users surroundings, they makes use of it by drawing it into their bodies and than releasing it. 



> Naruto is indeed manipulating an invisible aura. That aura is the natural energy which is everywhere. Naruto has no pure natural energy in his body to release. What he takes in is perfectly balanced with physical & spiritual energies to form Senjutsu chakra, which is what is required to even be in Sage Mode in the first place. The C-Rank skill is being capable of shaping and moving the surrounding energy in general, which Jiraiya probably is to a degree, but I don't see why Naruto couldn't be superior at that without it being related to other factors such as speed & boxing skill.


Not according to the DB. According to the DB the person takes in natural energy and than releases it from a specific body part. The balancing of the three energies is what's required for Sennin Modo; Frog Katas is a different technique. 

DBIV "in Sennin Modo by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers. They can sense the enemies movement, match enemies rhythm/speed, to release a severe counter. Energy is released from one part of the body, the attacks reach is extended. "


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## Duhul10 (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin,what about translating Jiraiya's page ? would you ?


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> Turrin,what about translating Jiraiya's page ? would you ?


If it's interesting. I'm not going to spend an hour to translate shit about Jiraiya's WOF passing to Naruto and destined child stuff, which is what I remember it largely being about.

Edit: There is nothing interesting in Jiriaya's profile so I won't bother to translate it. Here's the Cliff notes. Jiriaya loves the next Gen. Jiraiya is a super famous ninja whose actions are the stuff of legends. Jiriaya is Naruto and Nagato's master - destined child BS. He likes peeping on women.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't see how this contradicts the DB. Natural energy exists in the users surroundings, they makes use of it by drawing it into their bodies and than releasing it.



I don't see how that's possible. Drawing more Natural Energy into the body would fuck up the perfect harmony that must exist for one to be in a perfected Sage Mode. It doesn't contradict the Databook, it contradicts the manga.



> Not according to the DB. According to the DB the person takes in natural energy and than releases it from a specific body part. The balancing of the three energies is what's required for Sennin Modo; Frog Katas is a different technique.



...Naruto doesn't use Frog Katas outside of Sage Mode though, so we would see Naruto's appearance start to become more toad-like if he were to draw in natural energy.



> DBIV "in Sennin Modo by collecting natural energy they gain danger sensing powers. They can sense the enemies movement, match enemies rhythm/speed, to release a severe counter. Energy is released from one part of the body, the attacks reach is extended. "



Are you _positive_ you have the translation correct?

That completely contradicts not only what I said above, but a major component in utilizing senjutsu:



Natural energy cannot be drawn into the body while on the run, which Naruto was against Preta Path.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

@Rocky excellent post


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2015)

What Rocky posted is what I was trying to say.



Turrin said:


> If it's interesting. I'm not going to spend an hour to translate shit about Jiraiya's WOF passing to Naruto and destined child stuff, which is what I remember it largely being about.
> 
> Edit: There is nothing interesting in Jiriaya's profile so I won't bother to translate it. Here's the Cliff notes. Jiriaya loves the next Gen. Jiraiya is a super famous ninja whose actions are the stuff of legends. Jiriaya is Naruto and Nagato's master - destined child BS. He likes peeping on women.



So stuff we already know. Kinda disappointing but it's too be expected. Jiraiya's character was fleshed out well in the story.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

Thunder and rocky you have made this thread. kudos


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> What Rocky posted is what I was trying to say.
> .





Rocky said:


> I don't see how that's possible. Drawing more Natural Energy into the body would fuck up the perfect harmony that must exist for one to be in a perfected Sage Mode. It doesn't contradict the Databook, it contradicts the manga.
> .


Oh Shit!, You know what I was wrong 

Going back and looking at the DB entry again, I fucked up. I got release from the counter part, not the energy part. So it's the counter that is released not the energy.

Also going back and looking at the scan you post of Ch 431, it's clear to me that, Frog Katas does work by the user controlling energy in the environment. I took a look at the Raw myself and confirmed that and also found C-net's translation, who is translator I trust:

Fukasaku: (The Way of the Frog makes use of the natural energy in the user's surroundings. // It was that energy that manifested as an extension of Naruto's body and attacked Pain! // Sennin Mode raises both threat perception and attacking range above the ordinary!!)

Apologies for the fuck up, but one has to remember that some of these translation I did when I was very much new at this and was doing them on the fly; now i'm a-lot better at this. Here's is a much cleaner translation to make up for it.


Kawazu Kumite

*The source of mother nature's military arts! A savage Sennin Taijutsu!*

A Taijutsu that those who have learned Senjutsu are fluent in. That is "Kawazu Kumite". Once Sennin Modo is obtained, it becomes possible to take in natural energy, and ones intellectual power to feel danger enlarges. Than at that time, one can sense the movements of the opponent, this results in a severe counter being let loose through matching the rhythm [speed, etc...] of the enemy's attack. Moreover energy, is made us of by a part of the body specifically the hand, the range and offensive ability of the attack increases. There is no weakness in offense or defense, it's a flawless Taijutsu.

_Versus Pain who could withstand ninjutsu [Fatty-Realm], Kawazu Kumite was released!

The range of Sennin Modo's attack was extended drastically. the attack he [Pain] expected to avoid blew him away._

--------------------

With that out of the way based on the Raw and DB I do not believe the text supports that it's an invisible aura that's always following Naruto and can be manipulated, but rather that he calls forth the energy (collects it) from the environment to be near his hand when he needs his reach extended, which is inherently different than an Aura that is always there.

Also on the issues of Jiriaya's Frog Katas. The DB specifically says those who can use Senjutsu (which Jiriaya can) are fluent (or are proficient in) the arts of Frog Katas, so that obviously means Jiriaya can use Danger Sensing and Ghost Punches. And I still see no indication as to why Naruto's would be better than Jiriaya's, as the DB still from how I interpret it just makes it sound like a basic tech that gives any Senjutsu user these basic skills, that are not scalable.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

So wait ghost attacks only works with punches? no wonder NF kept calling it ghost punches. 
btw turrin can you translate laser circus? do you have a better scan


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So wait ghost attacks only works with punches? no wonder NF kept calling it ghost punches.
> btw turrin can you translate laser circus? do you have a better scan


The Japanese word "Te" is used, which can stand for Hand or Arm, but since your not being punch by an arm the way Fatty was, I opt for Hand in my translation. Though it could be Kishi is going for the length of the arm including the hand, but ether way it seems centralized to that specific part of the body. As in bit of natural energy is collect around that region extending ones reach and power when throwing that attack. Everything about Frog Katas seems to indicate it's a minor manipulation of natural energy, not some body wide malleable aura.

Lazer circus says nothing interesting from what I can recall, I might have even already done a translation, just check the trans thread. PG 5 is where most of my trans are linked.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Oh Shit!, You know what I was wrong
> 
> Going back and looking at the DB entry again, I fucked up. I got release from the counter part, not the energy part. So it's the counter that is released not the energy.
> 
> ...



Did you translate Kawazu Kumite yourself? If not did you take a look at the raw? It's kinda hard to understand what the Databook is getting at sometimes even when it's written in English. Perhaps the Databook is just being redundant there by stating Kawazu Kumite is a skill Senjutsu users can learn as we've seen before with other jutsu entries. Kinda like saying Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi are jutsu only those with a Mangekyō Sharingan can unlock, for example. I'm positive there are other such examples. 

And one could interpret "proficient with Senjutsu" to mean a Perfect Sage.

Still, I gotta admit the evidence for Jiraiya having Kawazu Kumite is piling up here. So I think you've convinced me on that Turrin.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Did you translate Kawazu Kumite yourself?.


Well the first time was just me paraphrasing stuff, because I was getting a million request every two seconds back when the DB was hot and I wasn't as good at translating as I am now, so I just did paraphrasing for times sake. What I did in my last post was a full on translations. 



> It's kinda hard to understand what the Databook is getting at sometimes even when it's written in English. Perhaps the Databook is just being redundant there by stating Kawazu Kumite is a skill Senjutsu users can learn as we've seen before with other jutsu entries.


No this is not possible at least from how I understand the text. Because the text isn't saying it's a skill that can be learned, but rather that it's a skill someone gets proficient in from learning Senjutsu. Basically if you know how to use Senjutsu you know how to use Frog Katas. The two are not mutually exclusive. 

Which makes sense as Naruto after learning Senjutsu, only need a crash course of a few hours with Fusaku to be able to use Frog Katas in battle. So it seems learning Senjutsu gives you Frog Katas automatically, but than of course you need some real world experience with it, to know how to use it efficiently in battle, which is what Fusaku gave Naruto.



> Did you take a look at the raw?


Which Raw? The Raw DB, because yeah i'm translating everything from the Raw-Japanese.



> And one could interpret "proficient with Senjutsu" to mean a Perfect Sage.


But it's not proficient with Senjutsu. It's when someone learns Senjutsu they can these abilities proficiently. Jiriaya learned Senjutsu, as otherwise he couldn't enter any Sage-Mode. 

Basically all you need is to learn Senjtusu. Learn how to use Senjutsu = Can use Frog Katas proficiently. Not proficiently use Senjutsu, proficiently use Frog Kats.



> Still, I gotta admit the evidence for Jiraiya having Kawazu Kumite is piling up here.


The fact that the DB says anyone whose learned Senjutsu can use Frog Katas proficiently leaves no leeway with that. Jiraiya learned Senjutsu, so he can use Frog Katas; that is a fact as far as the Data-book is concerned. ;

I knew there was a reason I was so sure about that bit, but I never really conveyed why properly in my previous paraphrase, that's also my bad, but now it should be clear.


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## Thunder (Apr 3, 2015)

Alright, that makes sense to me. I'll concede Jiraiya knows Kawazu Kumite. Jiraiya is listed as a user and the entry you posted seems to support that. 

Good enough for me.


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## Icegaze (Apr 3, 2015)

@Turrin i checked. the only thing u say is you couldnt fully translate due to the poor quality of the raw scan
i enjoy this thread

jiriaya having it is perfect for me as well. adds to his character. never had doubts. though i wonder why they can only focus the energy in their arms to increase their arm reach and not their leg. 

shame.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Turrin i checked. the only thing u say is you couldnt fully translate due to the poor quality of the raw scan
> i enjoy this thread
> 
> jiriaya having it is perfect for me as well. adds to his character. never had doubts. though i wonder why they can only focus the energy in their arms to increase their arm reach and not their leg.
> ...



Took a look at it, and it just repeats stuff we already know. It's made of Suiton and Raiton, and comes out Darui's hands. Most of those appendix entries are just repeats.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 3, 2015)

After Turrin's and the others' posts, I have come to the conclusion that The C-rank jutsu frog kata probably is identical ( they both use it the same), but, maybe Naruto's phisical boost was better than Jiraiya, so he slightly surpassed him in Sm ( talking about pain Arc ), imo only in strength ( from what it was shown ). 
 I want to clarify something, after Jiraiya kicked the path, human path was knocked down for like 3 pages ( he got up after the fat one nullified goemon ), so he did not tank it like nothing
And i have a question, why did sm Jiraiya make a hole in the field when he landed ? was it a sign of the boost or what ?
Still, Imo Jiraiya vs Pain was the most plot armored fight, why I say that? because after Sm Naruto vs Pain, we have seen that the sages could actually block their vision with dust cloud and imobilize them with frog call, but they didn't , Jiraiya could have sunk the summons, but he didn't, he could have used gamayu endan to distract preta, that if preta would have been able to absorb a jutsu with such aoe, but he didn't.
But after all of this plot shit , this fight , among others of course, it is one of my favourite battles. Great posts so far, all of you


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> After Turrin's and the others' posts, I have come to the conclusion that The C-rank jutsu frog kata probably is identical ( they both use it the same), but, maybe Naruto's phisical boost was better than Jiraiya, so he slightly surpassed him in Sm ( talking about pain Arc ), imo only in strength ( from what it was shown ).
> I want to clarify something, after Jiraiya kicked the path, human path was knocked down for like 3 pannels ( he got up after the fat one nullified goemon ), so he did not tank it like nothing
> And i have a question, why did sm Jiraiya make a hole in the field when he landed ? was it a sign of the boost or what ?
> Still, Imo Jiraiya vs Pain was the most plot armored fight, why I say that? because after Sm Naruto vs Pain, we have seen that the sages could actually block their vision with dust cloud and imobilize them with frog call, but they didn't , Jiraiya could have sunk the summons, but he didn't, he could have used gamayu endan to distract preta, that if preta would have been able to absorb a jutsu with such aoe, but he didn't.
> But after all of this plot shit , this fight , among others of course, it is one of my favourite battles. Great posts so far, all of you



Naruto isn't better at Senjutsu because he's physically stronger, if anything it's the other way around and SM-Jiraiya is physically stronger, as Jiraiya already starts from a position which is ridiculously super human with him being able to poke Naruto with a finger and send him flying across a huge gorge even in Base and being a mere .5 less than top-tier in the Data-book.

Naruto is better than Jiraiya because he can balance the three energies more efficiently, which gives him a number of advantages. It's why he can use SM effectively w/o the Elder-Toads, because he's good enough at balancing that he can even have clones waiting in the wings balancing for him, that can be released to extend his duration. This is a feat of balancing, and that's why even Naruto can only have a certain amount of clones out while he's doing this as otherwise it would throw off the balance, but on the other side of the coin, he is good enough where he can do this in the first place. Additionally because he can balance the energies more efficiently, that's why he can combined SM while using BM or God-Mode, while if you threw the Demon-Fox at Jiriaya and he attempted to do the same thing he'd be incapable of pulling off such a high order balancing feat. 

So Naruto was better than Jiriaya at Senjutsu, but it's just not the immediate gradification people believed it to be originally where suddenly being a perfect Sage meant Naruto was better at everything. Rather it was a slow burn. Naruto is better at Senjutsu so he can use SM effectively w/o Fusaku and Shima. He's better at Senjutsu so he can balance the huge chakra of the Demon-Fox and use things like KSM, BSM, and later all the natural energy in the world combined with God Mode. These are huge perks that make him a way better Sage than Jiriaya, but when simply comparing the abilities of Basic SM-Naruto and Basic SM-Jiriaya, there isn't much difference in output, if not Jiriaya being a bit better.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Naruto isn't better at Senjutsu because he's physically stronger, if anything it's the other way around and SM-Jiraiya is physically stronger, as Jiraiya already starts from a position which is ridiculously super human with him being able to poke Naruto with a finger and send him flying across a huge gorge even in Base and being a mere .5 less than top-tier in the Data-book.
> 
> Naruto is better than Jiraiya because he can balance the three energies more efficiently, which gives him a number of advantages. It's why he can use SM effectively w/o the Elder-Toads, because he's good enough at balancing that he can even have clones waiting in the wings balancing for him, that can be released to extend his duration. This is a feat of balancing, and that's why even Naruto can only have a certain amount of clones out while he's doing this as otherwise it would throw off the balance, but on the other side of the coin, he is good enough where he can do this in the first place. Additionally because he can balance the energies more efficiently, that's why he can combined SM while using BM or God-Mode, while if you threw the Demon-Fox at Jiriaya and he attempted to do the same thing he'd be incapable of pulling off such a high order balancing feat.
> 
> So Naruto was better than Jiriaya at Senjutsu, but it's just not the immediate gradification people believed it to be originally where suddenly being a perfect Sage meant Naruto was better at everything. Rather it was a slow burn. Naruto is better at Senjutsu so he can use SM effectively w/o Fusaku and Shima. He's better at Senjutsu so he can balance the huge chakra of the Demon-Fox and use things like KSM, BSM, and later all the natural energy in the world combined with God Mode. These are huge perks that make him a way better Sage than Jiriaya, but when simply comparing the abilities of Basic SM-Naruto and Basic SM-Jiriaya, there isn't much difference in output, if not Jiriaya being a bit better.


my bad for the strength part, you may be right, but what about the part when Jiraiya made a hole in the field? what was that for ?
About the feats part, Imo Sm Jiraiya is superior to pain Arc Sm Naruto, judging by what it was shown, maybe bar the taijutsu part ( one killed a path, the other just knocked him out )
Speed- Sm Jiraiya ( Rasengan part, Shunshin, the distraction for kebari senbon )
Durability- Jiraiya has shown more, but maybe just because of WOF
Agility- Clearly Jiraiya, due his phisical mutation which allowed him better manouverbality (kebari senbon part)
Versatility- Clearly Jiraiya
Intelligence- Clearly Jiraiya
Taijutsu- Naruto ( i gave the reason upper )
Genjutsu- because Jiraiya needs the toad sages to enter sage mode, he has this because of gamarinshou
Sm Ablilities- They both have them, but from showings this one is Naruto's
So we have 6 - 2, for Jiraiya ( against Pain Arc Sm Naruto )

I would like you to respond to that question, if you can and want of course.


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## Rocky (Apr 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> With that out of the way based on the Raw and DB I do not believe the text supports that it's an invisible aura that's always following Naruto and can be manipulated, but rather that he calls forth the energy (collects it) from the environment to be near his hand when he needs his reach extended, which is inherently different than an Aura that is always there. Also on the issues of Jiriaya's Frog Katas. The DB specifically says those who can use Senjutsu (which Jiriaya can) are fluent (or are proficient in) the arts of Frog Katas, so that obviously means Jiriaya can use Danger Sensing and Ghost Punches.



Yes, I agree with all of this.




> And I still see no indication as to why Naruto's would be better than Jiriaya's, as the DB still from how I interpret it just makes it sound like a basic tech that gives any Senjutsu user these basic skills, that are not scalable.



My only theory would be that perfect senjutsu chakra is stronger than chakra that is slightly unbalanced, meaning Naruto would gain more of a boost than Jiraiya did in the Sage Arts.


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## Turrin (Apr 3, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> my bad for the strength part, you may be right, but what about the part when Jiraiya made a hole in the field? what was that for ?
> About the feats part, Imo Sm Jiraiya is superior to pain Arc Sm Naruto, judging by what it was shown, maybe bar the taijutsu part ( one killed a path, the other just knocked him out )
> Speed- Sm Jiraiya ( Rasengan part, Shunshin, the distraction for kebari senbon )
> Durability- Jiraiya has shown more, but maybe just because of WOF
> ...


The crack in the ground probably was just there for dramatic effect, in all honesty.

As for how Jiriaya and Naruto stack up in overall strength, It's not like Jiriaya is way better than Naruto, but I do think he holds the edge over Naruto, until Naruto gets KCM/BM, at which point he's better than Jiriaya. Jiriaya is better at versatility and efficiency than Naruto, while Naruto is better at Raw-Power, but I value versatility and efficiency more than Raw-Power. Of course once Naruto gets Kyuubi-Modes the Raw-Power gap simply becomes too large and Jiraiya can't compete


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