# Luffy and Zoro vs Natsu and Gajeel



## wowfel (Oct 17, 2016)

Location: Marineford 
Distance:30 meteres 
Speed Equal 
Knowledge:Full on both sides


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## Milkydean (Oct 17, 2016)

Natsu can solo here.


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Natsu solos in a hugely unbalanced fight. Zoro can win in a difficult fight.


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

As far as I know Natsu's current stats beats Luffy's 

But I don't know how would a Zoro Vs Gajeel go...


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> As far as I know Natsu's current stats beats Luffy's
> 
> But I don't know how would a Zoro Vs Gajeel go...


not at all considering G2 Luffy is already island lv.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 18, 2016)

What the hell how can Natsu win he is like 2 digit mach while the OP team is 4 digit mach
Aren't both Natsu and luffy island level


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

Divell said:


> not at all considering G2 Luffy is already island lv.



I might be a Luffy fanboy myself, but even I know G2 is just city level (at least 11 megatons) and the small island scaling for Luffy was never accepted...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> I might be a Luffy fanboy myself, but even I know G2 is just city level (at least 11 megatons) and the small island scaling for Luffy was never accepted...


Scaling? I meant Fujitora's mountain busting feat where Luffy was in the middle of it everything and the one who has 11 megatons or so is Zoro's feat from cutting the giant rock dude whose name I can't remember.


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

Divell said:


> Scaling? I meant Fujitora's mountain busting feat where Luffy was in the middle of it everything and the one who has 11 megatons or so is Zoro's feat from cutting the giant rock dude whose name I can't remember.



That only applies to Luffy's dura to blunt force. Since Luffy never matched that attack he only has small island dura for blunt force but city level for DC and city level resistance to attacks that could either affect his rubber-like body and/or overpower his haki


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> That only applies to Luffy's dura to blunt force. Since Luffy never matched that attack he only has small island dura for blunt force but city level for DC and city level resistance to attacks that could either affect his rubber-like body and/or overpower his haki


Which is what Natsu and Gajeel use the most. Besides both Luffy and Zoro being faster (I don't know Zoro), the only thing Natsu and Gajeel have is Gajeel's Shadow ability.


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## Jag77 (Oct 18, 2016)

Nobody here is Island level and G2 Luffy is not Island level.


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Jag77 said:


> Nobody here is Island level and G2 Luffy is not Island level.


small island in durability.


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## bitethedust (Oct 18, 2016)

Jag77 said:


> Nobody here is Island level and G2 Luffy is not Island level.



Pretty sure Natsu at his strongest is somewhere in the gigaton range.


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## Dellinger (Oct 18, 2016)

Luffy KKG should be far above any attack Natsu ever pulled.


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## Jag77 (Oct 18, 2016)

Oh is this stupid "King Kong Gun is not as strong as King's Punch" trend still going while Natsu gets reached? 

Shame.


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## Claudio Swiss (Oct 18, 2016)

How the fuck king kong gun does not get scaled to kings punch where does kings punch sits in? Low or high megatons or what?


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## Dellinger (Oct 18, 2016)

KKG is a top tier attack you goofs.It's not by any means weaker than Fujitora's ferocious tiger.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 18, 2016)

Speed is equal here and Natsu's high end attacks should outclass anything Luffy has in his arsenal. I think Zoro's Sanzen Sekai calc is the highest thing Luffy get's scaled to


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

What lv was Doflamingo at?


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

Divell said:


> What lv was Doflamingo at?



He gets scaled to Zoro as well


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 18, 2016)

He's stronger than Zoro and Luffu, but doesn't get scaled to anything higher if I'm not mistaken. Meanwhile, Law has a 200 megaton feat yet he's weaker than both Doflamingo and Luffy


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> He's stronger than Zoro and Luffu, but doesn't get scaled to anything higher if I'm not mistaken. Meanwhile, Law has a 200 megaton feat yet he's weaker than both Doflamingo and Luffy



Law acomplished that feat thanks to his spatial slashes, this energy output doesn't scale to any of his physical stats


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> Law acomplished that feat thanks to his spatial slashes, this energy output doesn't scale to any of his physical stats


I'm talking about his use of Takt to redirect Fuji's meteor. But yeah, nobody can scale to it because of his DF


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> He gets scaled to Zoro as well


Any other feat for city at least that Luffy can at least scale to?


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## Warlordgab (Oct 18, 2016)

Divell said:


> Any other feat for city at least that Luffy can at least scale to?



This one isn't accepted but some people (including myself) wanted to scale Luffy's KKG to the King Punch:  (51 megatons)


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## Divell (Oct 18, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> This one isn't accepted but some people (including myself) wanted to scale Luffy's KKG to the King Punch:  (51 megatons)


Damn that's actually lower than I though, are you sure we are talking about the same guy that was casually evading Dracule's slashes?


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## Crackle (Oct 19, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> Pretty sure Natsu at his strongest is somewhere in the gigaton range.


WHich feat is Natsu island level again? Kind of hard to keep track of FT when it's mostly fanservice and booms.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 19, 2016)

Any calcul for KKG from Luffy in NF ? We have a calc for Zorro's sansei senkai, why not for Luffy's KKG ?

@God Movement; @White Hawk; @Tacocat;
What do you think guys ? This calcul is correct or not ?


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## bitethedust (Oct 19, 2016)

Crackle said:


> WHich feat is Natsu island level again? Kind of hard to keep track of FT when it's mostly fanservice and booms.



Ask someone that actually reads FT, I just remember reading from a trustworthy user here that Fagsu was in the gigaton range.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

No KKG calc ever got accepted as far as I'm aware, and Natsu would be island level because of Brandish's feat


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## Iwandesu (Oct 19, 2016)

Akira1993 said:


> Any calcul for KKG from Luffy in NF ? We have a calc for Zorro's sansei senkai, why not for Luffy's KKG ?
> 
> @God Movement; @White Hawk; @Tacocat;
> What do you think guys ? This calcul is correct or not ?


Im almost positive This one has been debunked when it came here.
The torque's momentum makes sense but doesn't really make up for what the calc entails 
Basically if the Torque was the way the calc implies there would be no flip to begin with iirc


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## Jag77 (Oct 19, 2016)

I'm curious about Gigaton Natsu as well.


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## Divell (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> No KKG calc ever got accepted as far as I'm aware, and Natsu would be island level because of Brandish's feat


This one has been debunked when it came here.


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## B Rabbit (Oct 19, 2016)

KKG would give you some high level feat, but I believe it is hiding an outlier if we use it. Same reason we can't use Teraton Fujitora meteor.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 19, 2016)

B Rabbit said:


> KKG would give you some high level feat, but I believe it is hiding an outlier if we use it. Same reason we can't use Teraton Fujitora meteor.


The idea of Fujitora being in the Teraton isn't even an outlier.


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## B Rabbit (Oct 19, 2016)

At the time it was though.

Although now brought up, we could look back into it.


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## Zern227 (Oct 19, 2016)

The meteor feat was lowballed to all hell. No one in their right mind would assume that dozens of asteroids would chill right outside the atmosphere.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

Divell said:


> This one has been debunked when it came here.


KKG or the Brandish scaling? I already know KKG isn't accepted


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## shade0180 (Oct 19, 2016)

Zern227 said:


> The meteor feat was lowballed to all hell. No one in their right mind would assume that dozens of asteroids would chill right outside the atmosphere.



Just going to point out why the meteor is iffy... there are 2 shits that can be considered because One Piece earth is not the same as ours.



1. floating Islands.

2. Multiple moon (Natural Satellite - This shit can have any sizes).


 those could be considered a falling meteor if they fall on earth..


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## Crackle (Oct 19, 2016)

You could make the excuse that his DF ability let him conjure the meteor outside our atmosphere and let gravity do the rest


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## shade0180 (Oct 19, 2016)

Crackle said:


> You could make the excuse that his DF ability let him conjure the meteor outside our atmosphere and let gravity do the rest




From what we have seen Fujitora's ability is control over localize gravity so why would he let the natural gravity take over when he has better control over it anyway.


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## Crackle (Oct 19, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> From what we have seen Fujitora's ability is control over localize gravity so why would he let the natural gravity take over when he has better control over it anyway.


Implying he needs to


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## Brolypotence (Oct 19, 2016)

So who wins?


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Just going to point out why the meteor is iffy... there are 2 shits that can be considered because One Piece earth is not the same as ours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah he's pulling clouds which they magically transform to flaming rocks.

Get out with this crap


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Im almost positive This one has been debunked when it came here.
> The torque's momentum makes sense but doesn't really make up for what the calc entails
> Basically if the Torque was the way the calc implies there would be no flip to begin with iirc



The feat is way higher even if we use a low balled time frame.


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## shade0180 (Oct 19, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> clouds



What clouds.. Shit are legit Islands there are also floating islets.

Did you forget that in One Piece Earth it is normal to have floating Islands, with no warning that they are above your location

there's practically one arc revolving around that shit.

We also have seen this shit appear out of nowhere on panel multiple times like that time when the new Pirates was running away from the Marines and other shit.

Did you also forgot the Globe we have seen in one of the chapter where there are shown multiple satellite/moon for One Piece It literally the shit Oda had drawn.

Enel was literally terrorizing one of those moons/satellite.



White Hawk said:


> agically transform to flaming rocks.



 forceful Re-entry  can ignite large objects specially on higher atmosphere.

And what's Fujitora's devil fruit ability gravity control, seriously large size rock on air + gravity = fucking falling and burning meteor.


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

The sky islands are clouds.The only one that had a piece of legit island on it was the Jaya one.

Those pirates you say run to a rock that was way too low and close to the island.

Higher atmosphere,not about 2 or 5 kilometers,what is that crap?

And yes Fujitora could be pulling them from there,the feat would be even more impressive.

You try to assume weird shit instead of going with the easiest explanation.


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## shade0180 (Oct 19, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> The sky islands are clouds



No not all of them are clouds, there are also floating islets, We saw that shit when some of the new century pirate run on those invisible path ways. those that are literally made out of rock. The one Nami did come from are clouds but not all of them are cloads.





White Hawk said:


> You try to assume weird shit instead of going with the easiest explanation.



what weird shit. That's the easiest explanation in a world like One Piece. Fujitora conjuring a meteor out of nowhere when his DF is not even that kind of ability is more of a weird shit than an island or even Natural Satellite floating above the island they are on considering it is a norm to their world.


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> No they aren't there are also floating islets, We saw that shit when some of the new century pirate run on those invisible path ways. those that are literally made out of rock. The one Nami did come from are clouds but not all of them are cloads.





Who are the new century pirates?The only piece of rock we have seen is the upper yard because of the knock out stream.The Sky islands are clouds nothing more



> *Island Clouds* are a special type of . They are fluffy, but dense enough to carry all kinds of things. They form islands in the sky seas.
> 
> Island Clouds, as well as , are created when a compound in  called "pyrobloin" is ejected into the air by volcanic eruptions and comes in contact with water vapors. The density of the water vapors determines whether Sea Cloud or Island Cloud will be created. Both these types of clouds are not normally able to survive on the







> what weird shit. That's the easiest explanation in a world like One Piece. Fujitora conjuring a meteor out of nowhere when his DF is not even that kind of ability is more of a weird shit than an island or even Natural Satellite floating above the island they are on considering it is a norm to their world.



Fujitora pulls them from space.He drags them with his gravity.

You are just saying that it so happened that Dressrosa has rock islands up above it alongside those rocks that pulled bege's crew?Yeah no.


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## Dr. White (Oct 19, 2016)

I agree with Whitehawk surprisingly. Pretty sure that Jaya/Ebnel was stuff was extremely special. The meteors he pulled down looked like small space debris, and he was pulling down dozens against Law. They were probably actually meteorites to be honest judging from the size. Not sure why we would think Fuji isn't going to space when I doubt someone semi moral like Fuji would just be taking down cloud land, and the narrative pretty implied it was from space.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

A few ppl on another forum were trying to push for something similar, their result was Mach 17k reactions for OP high tiers


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## Akira1993 (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> A few ppl *on another forum* were trying to push for something similar, their result was Mach 17k reactions for OP high tiers


Let me guess, TMF.


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> A few ppl on another forum were trying to push for something similar, their result was Mach 17k reactions for OP high tiers


Well you know it's not far fetched.It probably is that fast.


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## Dr. White (Oct 19, 2016)

Wait what entry level did GM use to calc the speed? I thought he used Stratosphere? Did he use atmosphere?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

A jump from Mach 500(?) to Mach 17k is pretty huge, not Magi huge though. It ended up getting shot down because of too many assumptions, if my memory serves me right


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Wait what entry level did GM use to calc the speed? I thought he used Stratosphere? Did he use atmosphere?


He used the thermopause and did a linear sscaling.

OP's planet mesopause was like 39k KM.The thermopause would come out to be over 300k KM


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## Dr. White (Oct 19, 2016)

One Piece is already mach 1950 cuh


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> A jump from Mach 500(?) to Mach 17k is pretty huge, not Magi huge though. It ended up getting shot down because of too many assumptions, if my memory serves me right


It's mach 2k with a low balled distance,not mach 500.Also we have a lightning speed dude,a light speed guy and Kuma and you think that number is that impressive?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

If the Mach 17k was real, then there would be no Mach 2k feat since this is that feat just upgraded. So it would be a jump from Mach 500 or so to Mach 17k. Can't keep both calcs obviously


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## Dr. White (Oct 19, 2016)

Mach 1950 is fine for One Piece as of right now. NNT lightning timing feat is only mach 277 and Itachi's lightning timing was also calced as much slower IIRC so Enel movement speed (because he doesn't move as huge powerful bolts) should be somewhere aroudn there. Kuma being MHS+ is fine to cause he isn't really teleporting from what I recall just repelling. Kizaru is LS in Mirror Mode so him being mach 1950+ for now sounds fine.

I just don't know why the thermopause was used when what Fuji summoned looks like meteorites. Did we do this with Bleach and or Madara's meteors?


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## shade0180 (Oct 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Madara's meteors?



Madara's meteor calc should be something that is based on the impact when it crashed not on the flight speed or height of the meteor dropped.

 Calculating the speed base on Madara's meteor would result with some problem considering oonoki was already slowing it down and the meteor wasn't on fire.


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## Dr. White (Oct 19, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Madara's meteor calc should be something that is based on the impact when it crashed not on the flight speed or height of the meteor dropped.
> 
> Calculating the speed base on Madara's meteor would result with some problem considering oonoki was already slowing it down and the meteor wasn't on fire.


True I didn't even think of the context of the calcs.

I know Gremmy's was imagined too, so I was just wondering how they did that one and got Ken's DC for destroying it since that shit literally just appeared.


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

Madara's is not even a real meteor


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## howdy01 (Oct 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> True I didn't even think of the context of the calcs.
> 
> I know Gremmy's was imagined too, so I was just wondering how they did that one and got Ken's DC for destroying it since that shit literally just appeared.


speed of ablation and KE


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## Naruto0116 (Oct 19, 2016)

I feel like this conversation just went elsewhere away from the main topic...


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## Warlordgab (Oct 19, 2016)

^ I noticed

IIRC Natsu's accepted DC was in the triple-digit megaton range (the small island level stuff is still getting discussed... occasionally), I'm not sure about Gajeel though

So given Natsu has a higher DC than Luffy's and he's fast enough to avoid getting blitzed, why not focusing on Zoro Vs. Gajeel?


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## howdy01 (Oct 19, 2016)

I thought natsu still hasn't surpassed wall lvl yet?

(do I need the /s...)

Reactions: Winner 1


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## howdy01 (Oct 19, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


>


I have on-panel evidence m8, fite me

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Brolypotence (Oct 19, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> I have on-panel evidence m8, fite me


Those Walls were indestructible mate

Reactions: Funny 1


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## howdy01 (Oct 19, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> Those Walls were indestructible mate



u think natsu can take on real life?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

Natsu may only be wall level, but if there's one thing I learned from the Cracker fight it's this: Gon's Jajanken >> G4. Luffy could barely propel Cracker an island away. Gon was knocking dudes into other countries when he was just 13

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Brolypotence (Oct 19, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> u think natsu can take on real life?


Believe in Mashima mate


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## howdy01 (Oct 19, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> Believe in Mashima mate


 
believe in trump


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## Brolypotence (Oct 19, 2016)

howdy01 said:


> believe in trump


Only if Trumps wins otherwise the real world is doomed mate


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Elaborate


It's not on fire and it's not even looking like one.Its the same thing he did when he had ten tails power,he could only do one at the time


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## Iwandesu (Oct 19, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> The feat is way higher even if we use a low balled time frame.


So? 
Hiding an outlier too much?


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> So?
> Hiding an outlier too much?


What's an outlier exactly though?KKG is a top tier attack anyway


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 19, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> It's not on fire and it's not even looking like one.Its the same thing he did when he had ten tails power,he could only do one at the time



Chibaku Tensei uses black spheres to draw in everything around it and it takes some time to form into a big rock, it doesn't happen instantly. 



It's impossible for Madara to had made 2 big rocks with chibaku tensei without anyone noticing and without anyone and their surroundings getting sucked in by the chibaku tensei.  


It was also called a meteor


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## Divell (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> KKG or the Brandish scaling? I already know KKG isn't accepted


The brandish scaling, the island feat where she is sitting can't scale for Natsu.


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## Iwandesu (Oct 19, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> What's an outlier exactly though?KKG is a top tier attack anyway


I'm not about to write another essay about why "hiding an Outlier" has absolutely nothing to do with actual outliers 
The calc is conceptually wrong the way it is presented.
That's all you need to know if you can't understand the physics behind it


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## B Rabbit (Oct 19, 2016)

Fujitora isn't pulling randomnsky islands and making them meteors. 


That would only makr the feat more impressive.


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## Dellinger (Oct 19, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> I'm not about to write another essay about why "hiding an Outlier" has absolutely nothing to do with actual outliers
> The calc is conceptually wrong the way it is presented.
> That's all you need to know if you can't understand the physics behind it


What do you mean wrong ? It's good to learn new things so elaborate


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## B Rabbit (Oct 19, 2016)

The calc has to use the speed of the punch to get the numbers.

Luffy's would get you petatons worth of numbers.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 19, 2016)

Divell said:


> The brandish scaling, the island feat where she is sitting can't scale for Natsu.


It scales to some people, not sure about Natsu


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## Divell (Oct 19, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> It scales to some people, not sure about Natsu


Doubt it can scale to someone who doesn't have the same ability.


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## Alita (Oct 20, 2016)

Natsu ain't island level. His regular form is small city+ level for dc and some degree of town in dura and city+ level in dc and dura with igneel power up and hypersonic speed.

If natsu doesn't have the igneel power up here team fairy tail gets raped. If he does it can arguably go either way but I still lean with team OP.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Naruto0116 (Oct 20, 2016)

I'm going along with Team Luffy. Though the speed is still in Team Luffy's advantage due to dealing with opponents that are always fast in general. Seeing how in their world... supposedly speed equal power.


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## Brolypotence (Oct 20, 2016)

Just wait for END to drop some continent level nukes


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> Doubt it can scale to someone who doesn't have the same ability.


I already explained to you why Natsu gets scaled to Brandish's DC.

Brandish output 8 GT when shrinking that island

Brandish output the same energy (or more, not less because it's stated he was too strong) when attacking Neinheart

Neinheart was too strong, Neinheart now has 8 GT durability

whether magical or physical, he can still tank 8 GT

Natsu came in and one-shot Neinheart

Natsu now has 8 GT DC


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## Divell (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> I already explained to you why Natsu gets scaled to Brandish's DC.
> 
> Brandish output 8 GT when shrinking that island
> 
> ...


One problem with that logic. Brandish affected Natsu with her power. So is obviously he doesn't scale to her.


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## John Wayne (Oct 20, 2016)

Maybe Neinhart just had hax resistence.


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> One problem with that logic. Brandish affected Natsu with her power. So is obviously he doesn't scale to her.


Was I talking about durability? I was talking about DC. For durability he has Invel's 3 digit MT.



John Wayne said:


> Maybe Neinhart just had hax resistence.


It wasn't stated and the statement was just that he became too strong for her magic to work on him. But who knows.


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## shade0180 (Oct 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> One problem with that logic. Brandish affected Natsu with her power. So is obviously he doesn't scale to her.


How is Natsu's durability getting involved with the DC?

 the only way your point is going to work is if you think Natsu's durability is getting scaled to Neinhearts durability?


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## Divell (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Was I talking about durability? I was talking about DC. For durability he has Invel's 3 digit MT.
> 
> 
> It wasn't stated and the statement was just that he became too strong for her magic to work on him. But who knows.





shade0180 said:


> How is Natsu's durability getting involved with the DC?
> 
> the only way your point is going to work is if you think Natsu's durability is getting scaled to Neinhearts durability?


Natsu defeat him with just one punch, unless you are telling me he can't scale to his punches and he would get one-shoted by one casual punch from himself. The fact Neinheart wasn't affected by Brandish doesn't mean he has durability on that lv, is obviously more than just physical power what he was given.


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> Natsu defeat him with just one punch, unless you are telling me he can't scale to his punches and he would get one-shoted by one casual punch from himself. The fact Neinheart wasn't affected by Brandish doesn't mean he has durability on that lv, is obviously more than just physical power what he was given.


There is such a thing as a glass cannon


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## Divell (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> There is such a thing as a glass cannon


If he is glass canon he wouldn't be able to do anything like that. Is obvious he doesn't scale, let it go until we see something else or is explained.


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Divell said:


> If he is glass canon he wouldn't be able to do anything like that.


tf are you talking about


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## Divell (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> tf are you talking about


If Natsu were Glass canon he wouldn't be able to do what he does, his body would break appart. Or Grey who has matched fist with Natsu before, would be able to one-shot him. And if you are referring to Neinheart as Glass canon, Natsu would be even weaker.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> tf are you talking about




Divell is actually right, if Natsu was a glass canon, he would destroy himself whenever he punched or kicked. His durability cant' be a thousand times lower than his DC, it has to be somewhat the same.


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## shade0180 (Oct 20, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> whenever he punched or kicked




Most of the time his punch and kicks are boosted with magic.

 Did you guys forgot that his fucking magic is based on Dragonification...


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Also Brandish used her magic on Natsu around the beginning of the arc, it's unknown how much he got stronger after all those chapters.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 20, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Most of the time his punch and kicks are boosted with magic.
> 
> Did you guys forgot that his fucking magic is based on Dragonification...


It has been years since I read Fairy Tail


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## shade0180 (Oct 20, 2016)

I haven't really touched it since that tower with Jellal.

or was it with Sting. either way Dragon slayer magic has been explained in one of the earlier arc.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 20, 2016)

What does it do? Does it work offensively only or defensively also ?


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 20, 2016)

Anyone who is a good deal stronger than Brandish gets the scaling. So guys like Acno, Zeref, August, Irene and whoever else. It's probably debatable when it comes to base Natsu though

Tower arc with Jellal was the best arc besides Tenrou. Well not counting Tenrou's Erza shit of course. I haven't actually sat down and read more than a chapter in years, never even touched any of the spinoffs


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## Milkydean (Oct 20, 2016)

Brandish's magic affected when Natsu was in defeated state.The other time where Brandish made Natsu's head large could very well be considered gag moment just like cana one shotting Brandish.
Also if Natsu has 3 digit mt scaling for durabilIty the why is he considered Glass canon?His durability isnt remarkably low when compared to his offense.


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## shade0180 (Oct 20, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> What does it do? Does it work offensively only or defensively also ?



 Pretty sure you can grasp what dragonification mean. Unless you have some low level shit comprehension.

Seriously ability isn't always limited to only offensive or defensive.

and as far as Glass cannon goes. Natsu is not one of them.

His DC might be Higher than his durability that doesn't mean he is a glass cannon.

Glass cannon are basically character with normal human or peak human durability and Super Human Destructive capacity.

When your Durability is Mountain level and just trailing only a little behind your Island level DC that's not a glass cannon.


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

Gajeel vs Zoro

Zoro has 11 MT IIRC, and Armament Haki 

I'm not that familiar on OP but is Armament Haki just armor made of energy? Or a type of metal (that Gajeel could then eat)?

Gajeel has 50MT scaling from Jellal's meteor feat, shouldn't be lower tbh

Gajeel probably wins


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## howdy01 (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Gajeel vs Zoro
> 
> Zoro has 11 MT IIRC, and Armament Haki
> 
> ...


meteor is 19 mt, the difference aint much anyway

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 20, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Gajeel vs Zoro
> 
> Zoro has 11 MT IIRC, and Armament Haki
> 
> ...


armament haki is more like coating yourself/parts of your body with a barrier, sometimes invinsible

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Jag77 (Oct 20, 2016)

If by pathetic display of durability, does he mean that extremely disappointing one shot Jackal did where Natsu was K.O'd for a whole chapter from that tiny explosion? 

Well I mean, it was pre timeskip but it was also like an arc ago. So yeah, that was pretty damn hilarious.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 20, 2016)

IIRC Brandish's magic only worked on Natsu last time because she was the one that shrunk his tumor in the first place


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 20, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Interesting how you only quoted the part that makes it look like you are right but completely left the 'pathetic display of durability' phrase out of your quote.



I thought what I quoted was enough.

Having dura literately thousand of times lower than your DC doesn't count as pathetic display of durability to you? So say a character can destroy a universe but will die of a planet busting attack, that isn't an example of "pathetic display of durability"? Or Natsu being Island in DC and city+ in dura?




shade0180 said:


> all of that came from your link. Again Natsu is not a Glass Cannon his Durability is a single tier lower than his DC.



Not sure why you quoted the one-hit-point-wonder, long-range fighter and fragile speedster part, when a glass cannon is not necessarily neither of those. 

There are many types of glass cannons you know, no point in trying to mention them all, I never said Natsu was any of those. 


 TVtropes has titans from AOT as glass canons, despite their DC and dura being in the same tier and them being superhumans+ in both. The Titans are not known for having "pathetic display of durability" or being a " long-range fighter", "fragile speedster", or "one-hit-point-wonder".


TVtropes also calls tanks and other military vehicles , which are superhuman + in DC and dura glass cannons, since, you know, their DC far outclasses their dura, but not even by a thousand times.

Missile transporter-erector launchers are even called the "ultimate example of glass cannons in real life".


Do we have any reason to believe Natsu's DC and dura are so far apart?


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## howdy01 (Oct 20, 2016)

how is this still going on...


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## Warlordgab (Oct 20, 2016)

My questions:

Why it is so hard to keep dura at triple digit megaton for END!Natsu when his magic also enhances his physical stats?

And why are we using tvtropes?


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## EternalRage (Oct 20, 2016)

So...FT team wins?


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## Divell (Oct 21, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Brandish's magic affected when Natsu was in defeated state.The other time where Brandish made Natsu's head large could very well be considered gag moment just like cana one shotting Brandish.
> Also if Natsu has 3 digit mt scaling for durabilIty the why is he considered Glass canon?His durability isnt remarkably low when compared to his offense.


And what of the time she affected Natsu's internal organ, the same Natsu that one-shotted the guy.


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## Divell (Oct 21, 2016)

Brolypotence said:


> Only if Trumps wins otherwise the real world is doomed mate


Saying the real world is not dumb if Trump wins?


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## Milkydean (Oct 21, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> I thought what I quoted was enough.
> 
> Having dura literately thousand of times lower than your DC doesn't count as pathetic display of durability to you? So say a character can destroy a universe but will die of a planet busting attack, that isn't an example of "pathetic display of durability"? Or Natsu being Island in DC and city+ in dura?
> 
> ...


No you quoted only what you thought would prove your point ignoring the very next line that contradicts your point.
Also giving examples of universe busting with earth level dura?Really?Dude, Natsu has 3 digit mt scaling and 4 digit mt offense.His offense is only 6-10 times of is defense.Where are you getting 1000 times difference?



Divell said:


> And what of the time she affected Natsu's internal organ, the same Natsu that one-shotted the guy.


Then Natsu does not scale to 7gt in durability.


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 21, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> No you quoted only what you thought would prove your point ignoring the very next line that contradicts your point.
> Also giving examples of universe busting with earth level dura?Really?Dude, Natsu has 3 digit mt scaling and 4 digit mt offense.His offense is only 6-10 times of is defense.Where are you getting 1000 times difference?




First of all, no it doesn't contradict my point. If Natsu destroyed himself whenever he punched, wouldn't that classify as pathetic display of durability? The fact that he doesn't proves his DC and dura is the same. 


Also yeah you're right, I thought Invel's dura was 3 MT instead of 3 digit MT. My bad.

I'm not saying Natsu is a glass cannon, I'm saying if his dura and dc is 6 MT and 8 GT, he would be a glass cannon and he would destroy him whenever he attacked. If this doesn't ever to him, well guess what, he is not a glass cannon and his DC and dura are around the same. 

What's wrong with the universe level character example? Would that character not be considered glass cannon? Fucking real life tanks and Titans from AOT are considered glass cannons and their offense is way less than  6-10 times as much as their defense


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## ice demon slayer (Oct 21, 2016)

Why gajeel is here...


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## Milkydean (Oct 21, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> First of all, no it doesn't contradict my point. If Natsu destroyed himself whenever he punched, wouldn't that classify as pathetic display of durability? The fact that he doesn't proves his DC and dura is the same.
> 
> 
> Also yeah you're right, I thought Invel's dura was 3 MT instead of 3 digit MT. My bad.
> ...


So every character that has more offense power than defense are glass canon?
Also Natsu has Island level offense and Mountain level dura but you gave an example of universe level offense and earth level dura which has like billion times difference.


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## Warlordgab (Oct 21, 2016)

Ok, short and simple reasoning. Gray is scaled to triple-digit megaton as well, END!Natsu takes several of Devil!Gray's attacks and continues to fight. Yet his dura isn't at triple-digit megaton because...


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## Extravlad (Oct 21, 2016)

GOMU GOMU NO

CANNON BALL


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 21, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> So every character that has more offense power than defense are glass canon?
> Also Natsu has Island level offense and Mountain level dura but you gave an example of universe level offense and earth level dura which has like billion times difference.



Well yeah, that's literately the definition of glass cannon, more offensive than defensive. It doesn't have to be a hundred times more. If DC is *much* higher than dura, so much that you can't take many of your own attacks, then you're glass cannon.
I gave that example because Haruhi or whatever her name is, is at planet level or human level ( not too sure) in dura and universal in DC and she is considered a glass cannon.

If you want a better example, Titans from Attack on Titan have small building level DC and dura, yet they are glass cannon, since often when they punch their bones break.


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## Divell (Oct 21, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> No you quoted only what you thought would prove your point ignoring the very next line that contradicts your point.
> Also giving examples of universe busting with earth level dura?Really?Dude, Natsu has 3 digit mt scaling and 4 digit mt offense.His offense is only 6-10 times of is defense.Where are you getting 1000 times difference?
> 
> 
> Then Natsu does not scale to 7gt in durability.


And neither he does for DC. The reason he was unaffected is entirely different than just having greater power.


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## Milkydean (Oct 22, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> Well yeah, that's literately the definition of glass cannon, more offensive than defensive. It doesn't have to be a hundred times more. If DC is *much* higher than dura, so much that you can't take many of your own attacks, then you're glass cannon.
> I gave that example because Haruhi or whatever her name is, is at planet level or human level ( not too sure) in dura and universal in DC and she is considered a glass cannon.
> 
> If you want a better example, Titans from Attack on Titan have small building level DC and dura, yet they are glass cannon, since often when they punch their bones break.


Fine.So whats wrong with being glass canon anyways?And how does it affect this thread and Natsu soloing both Zoro and Luffy at the same time?



Divell said:


> And neither he does for DC. The reason he was unaffected is entirely different than just having greater power.


So what's the reason?Bcoz as far as I know Brandish clearly states that Ninehart was too powerful for her.Later we see Irene enchants a bunch of soldiers and they suddenly are powerful enough to match Erza.Her enchants till now clearly shows us that it makes people/things more powerful than they already are.So if you have any other reason state it.


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## Divell (Oct 22, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Fine.So whats wrong with being glass canon anyways?And how does it affect this thread and Natsu soloing both Zoro and Luffy at the same time?
> 
> 
> So what's the reason?Bcoz as far as I know Brandish clearly states that Ninehart was too powerful for her.Later we see Irene enchants a bunch of soldiers and they suddenly are powerful enough to match Erza.Her enchants till now clearly shows us that it makes people/things more powerful than they already are.So if you have any other reason state it.


It may not very well be the same, considering the enhancement in the fudder affected the mental state.


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## Divell (Oct 22, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> Ok, short and simple reasoning. Gray is scaled to triple-digit megaton as well, END!Natsu takes several of Devil!Gray's attacks and continues to fight. Yet his dura isn't at triple-digit megaton because...


how do we know he scales to that?


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## Milkydean (Oct 22, 2016)

Divell said:


> It may not very well be the same, considering the enhancement in the fudder affected the mental state.


What does the mental state have to do with Natsu not getting the scaling?They all got powerful from the enchants.Thats pretty clear.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 22, 2016)

Divell said:


> how do we know he scales to that?


The triple digit mt's feat comes from a dude that Gray overpowered while in a weaker state than he was in his fight against ENDsu


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 22, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Fine.So whats wrong with being glass canon anyways?And how does it affect this thread and Natsu soloing both Zoro and Luffy at the same time?


It doesn't. I thought Natsu's dura was only 3 MT at first, but he's at least 3 digit MT, far above what Luffy and Zoro can dish out.

Natsu solos comfortably.


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## Divell (Oct 22, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> What does the mental state have to do with Natsu not getting the scaling?They all got powerful from the enchants.Thats pretty clear.


the guy he one-shot's mental state, it shows it may very well be a different boost from the fudder.


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## Divell (Oct 22, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> The triple digit mt's feat comes from a dude that Gray overpowered while in a weaker state than he was in his fight against ENDsu


which one?


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## Divell (Oct 22, 2016)

Ayy lmao said:


> It doesn't. I thought Natsu's dura was only 3 MT at first, but he's at least 3 digit MT, far above what Luffy and Zoro can dish out.
> 
> Natsu solos comfortably.


luffy is at low gigatons in g2


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## Ayy lmao (Oct 22, 2016)

Divell said:


> luffy is at low gigatons in g2




he only scales to Fuji in dura, his dc at best scales to king punch.


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## Milkydean (Oct 22, 2016)

Divell said:


> the guy he one-shot's mental state, it shows it may very well be a different boost from the fudder.


Thats a very weak argument.Everything Eileen has enchanted has become stronger let it be a person or thing.I dont see how mental state of ninehart has to do anything with it.


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## EternalRage (Oct 22, 2016)

Divell said:


> which one?


How are you gonna come into a thread and start assuming the DC/durability of characters when you're not even up to date on the calcs they have?


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## Extravlad (Oct 22, 2016)

Luffy goes Tankman and he sends Natsu fly across Fiore.


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## EternalRage (Oct 22, 2016)

Extravlad said:


> Luffy goes Tankman and he sends Natsu fly across Fiore.



Instead Natsu goes Dragon Force and sends Luffy flying across the New World.


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## Milkydean (Oct 22, 2016)

How powerful is tankman though?Shouldnt it be on the same ballpark as KKG since Cracker is more likely to be on Doflamingo's level.


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## EternalRage (Oct 22, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> How powerful is tankman though?Shouldnt it be on the same ballpark as KKG since Cracker is more likely to be on Doflamingo's level.


It's much weaker than KKG, at least from what was shown so far.

If someone had to calc it they would probably calc the KE and there's no timeframe, and the mass is the same as a humans

it would probably be like town level depending on Big Mom's ship size


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## B Rabbit (Oct 24, 2016)

Cracker is a little bit stronger than Doflamingo, but Cracker is also a glass canon. So he's better at Doflamingo in DC, and Speed, but not Durability. Cracker isn't a slouch, it's just he's not going to tank a G4 onslaught like Doffy.


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## Divell (Oct 24, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Thats a very weak argument.Everything Eileen has enchanted has become stronger let it be a person or thing.I dont see how mental state of ninehart has to do anything with it.


But the one that physically increases his stats alters their mind is Berserk, not the same type of boost they get. We can't take them all as the same. Specially when Natsu can one-shot the guy, but is still affected by the reducing and increasing spell.



EternalRage said:


> How are you gonna come into a thread and start assuming the DC/durability of characters when you're not even up to date on the calcs they have?


I'm asking which one, I said which character did he over powered, but just that we are the same I want to also see the calc.


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## Milkydean (Oct 24, 2016)

Divell said:


> But the one that physically increases his stats alters their mind is Berserk, not the same type of boost they get. We can't take them all as the same. Specially when Natsu can one-shot the guy, but is still affected by the reducing and increasing spell.
> 
> 
> I'm asking which one, I said which character did he over powered, but just that we are the same I want to also see the calc.


Irene made 2 swords stronger by enchanting them.She made a fireball around Acno by enchanting the air.And Nine hart became stronger too.Berserker also made the fodders stronger.
Also Natsu one shotting Ninehart means he is stronger than Brandish.But he isnt durable enough to scale to 7 GT.Why is so hard to grasp?Has thre been no characters till now that have better offense than defense?Although END will definitely have 7 gt durability scaling.


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## Divell (Oct 24, 2016)

Milkydean said:


> Irene made 2 swords stronger by enchanting them.She made a fireball around Acno by enchanting the air.And Nine hart became stronger too.Berserker also made the fodders stronger.
> Also Natsu one shotting Ninehart means he is stronger than Brandish.But he isnt durable enough to scale to 7 GT.Why is so hard to grasp?Has thre been no characters till now that have better offense than defense?Although END will definitely have 7 gt durability scaling.


Again, way different spells, with different effects. You can't make that type of power scaling when Natsu is still being affected by Brandish.


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## Milkydean (Oct 24, 2016)

Divell said:


> Again, way different spells, with different effects. You can't make that type of power scaling when Natsu is still being affected by Brandish.


At the end of the day, all she does is enchant.You are ignoring manga facts and character statements and covering it up with a very weak argument.And Natsu gets the scaling in dc not dura.


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## ice demon slayer (Oct 24, 2016)

August comes and stomp them all


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## Jag77 (Oct 24, 2016)

Sabo comes and one shots August and the whole verse.


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## Jackalinthebox (Oct 24, 2016)

Depends who Sabo gets scaled to


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## EternalRage (Oct 24, 2016)

Jag77 said:


> Sabo comes and one shots August and the whole verse.


Natsu can eat him


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## howdy01 (Oct 24, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Natsu can eat him


pretty sure sabo scales to a higher degree of island level, natsu would get overwhelmed


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## ice demon slayer (Oct 24, 2016)

Lol at sabo one shotting August


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## Jag77 (Oct 24, 2016)

EternalRage said:


> Natsu can eat him



Ehhhh, take this how you want but I wouldn't recommend it.


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## Blαck (Oct 25, 2016)

ice demon slayer said:


> Lol at sabo one shotting August


Old head ain't ready for the dragon


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## Jag77 (Oct 25, 2016)

August a shit


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## Warlordgab (Oct 26, 2016)

So... had you reached an verdict?


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## EternalRage (Oct 28, 2016)

Jag77 said:


> Ehhhh, take this how you want but I wouldn't recommend it.


I see

so Sabo would just expand in Natsu's stomach and explode him


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## Warlordgab (Oct 28, 2016)

I need an unbiased/professional answer to this question:

What argument(s) can be used to support G2!Luffy being at the very least comparable to Zoro?


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## Crackle (Oct 29, 2016)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Anyone who is a good deal stronger than Brandish gets the scaling. So guys like Acno, Zeref, August, Irene and whoever else. It's probably debatable when it comes to base Natsu though
> 
> Tower arc with Jellal was the best arc besides Tenrou. Well not counting Tenrou's Erza shit of course. I haven't actually sat down and read more than a chapter in years, never even touched any of the spinoffs


Rave one is quality bro you're missing out.


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## Blαck (Oct 29, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> I need an unbiased/professional answer to this question:
> 
> What argument(s) can be used to support G2!Luffy being at the very least comparable to Zoro?


Didn't g2 hang with cracker? then there's the doffy fight which I guess should be enough. though here's some that believe Zoro could take daffy high diff so


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## Naruto0116 (Oct 30, 2016)

All I know is that Gajeel won't be eating Zoro's sword. He would literally snap his neck with his bare hands before he 'chomp' on them.


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## Dr. White (Oct 30, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> I need an unbiased/professional answer to this question:
> 
> What argument(s) can be used to support G2!Luffy being at the very least comparable to Zoro?


G2 Luffy would def be able to hang with Zoro until the latter got serious enough to end things. Luffy needs G2/G3 to beat Zoro ( a fight which can go either way and I'd favor Zoro high diff) and G4 for a definant victory.

G2 luffy did squat against Dofla and his best feat is tagging old Chinjao and beating Dofla's clone to shreds. G3 Luffy however broke apart Noah, and smashed Pica statue face in.


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## Warlordgab (Oct 30, 2016)

Then, Zoro could actually best Doflamingo by himself? 

I find weird how Luffy became so much weaker when the manga usually had him at the top of the monster trio...


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## EternalRage (Oct 30, 2016)

The reason OP isnt that strong is because Oda focuses on the quality of the manga rather than the feats


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## Blαck (Oct 30, 2016)

Warlordgab said:


> Then, Zoro could actually best Doflamingo by himself?
> 
> I find weird how Luffy became so much weaker when the manga usually had him at the top of the monster trio...



Well tbf it only seems like Zoro is out shining Luffy because he just so happens to get put up against fodder like pika and octodude. Chances are Zoro will get put in his place against the better swordsman of wano.

Reactions: Useful 1


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