# YC1 vs YC2 vs YC3 vs YC4



## YonkoDrippy (Dec 5, 2020)

What is the difference in power between each Yonko commander tier? What difficulty would the other commander tiers give to YC1? If you don’t know what the term “YC1/2/3/4” is it’s basically like this.

YC4 = Ace, Snack, etc.
YC3 = Vista, Jack, etc.
YC2 = Jozu, Queen, etc.
YC1 = Marco, Katakuri, etc.

@Ren. @xmysticgohanx @Vivo Diez @stealthblack @xenos5 @OG sama @Shunsuiju @Ezekjuninor

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## stealthblack (Dec 5, 2020)

yc4 would would give extreme to yc3, yc3 extreme to yc2, yc2 extreme to yc1. yc3 would give high diff to yc1, yc1 would medium diff yc4

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

First, I disagree with Ace being YC4. His feats are pre TS, and that lowers it extremely, but Teach literally killed an YC4 and could've been the 2nd commander, and Ace went against a much stronger version of Teach and did good.
He's the PK's son, has CoC and was especially groomed by WB, and also fought NW veterans frequently. There is no reason for Ace to be YC4.

Regarding the thread, each tier is an extreme diff fight for the tier above. YC1 can probably mid diff YC4

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Tenma (Dec 5, 2020)

Varies from crew to crew- I think Queen is probably closer to King than Smoothie is to Kata for example.

Generally, I think YC4 has the biggest gap to their direct superior and isn't a post that exists in all crews.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## YonkoDrippy (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> First, I disagree with Ace being YC4. His feats are pre TS, and that lowers it extremely, but Teach literally killed an YC4 and could've been the 2nd commander, and Ace went against a much stronger version of Teach and did good.
> He's the PK's son, has CoC and was especially groomed by WB, and also fought NW veterans frequently. There is no reason for Ace to be YC4.
> 
> Regarding the thread, each tier is an extreme diff fight for the tier above. YC1 can probably mid diff YC4


There’s also no reason for Ace to be any higher than YC4. Can you see him overwhelming G4 like how commanders like Cracker and Katakuri did (YC3 and a YC1)? He lost to a pre gura teach. I’d say YC4 is perfect tier for him.


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## Nox (Dec 5, 2020)

YC is a battle rubric to determine a character's strength placement within an Emperor crew, independent of the Yonko. Generally speaking the level immediately below can offer High Difficulty to the one above. The one two places below falls between Mid-High to High-Mid, depending on match ups and arsenal. There is a clear defined systems which exists from YC 1-3. However, once you get to 4 the water becomes extremely muddled. The crews don't follows the same blueprint. 

Linlin has 4 Sweet Commanders. WB had 4 standouts but from a *power perspective* its 3. Kaido has his 3 calamities. If we used the basis of Ace and Snack as 4th Commander, it allows certain characters to be  overrated. As their placement is closer to 3rd Commanders than 4th Commanders. For this reason, I have an additional rubric. I do this as there is _clear cut manga justification_ to indicate this character *IS NOT YC3*. Yet, their feats and placement outshines the Ace and Snacks while allowing to rate other strong NW characters. 

YC1 - Marco
YC2 - Jozu
YC3 - Vista
YC4 - Doflamingo
YC5 - Ace


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## Sherlōck (Dec 5, 2020)

YC1/YC2/YC3/YC4 is a characters battle placement in an emperor's crew. If I were to place a number on them then it wouldn't differ much. For example in WB's crew, 

Marco -- 100
Jozu -- 90
Vista -- 80
Ace -- 70

Jozu would be an for Marco and Vista would for Jozu extreme difficulty fight. But Marco Vs Vista would be high diff win for Marco. 

But it also true that not all YC1 or YC2 are on the same level. For example I would actually place WB's commander above BM's and Kaido's. If I were to assign number including them then,

Marco -- 100
King -- 95
Katakuri -- 90
Jozu -- 90
Vista -- 80
Smoothie -- 80
Ace -- 70
Cracker -- 70
Snack -- 60

So for me, it's not really that black and white.

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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> There’s also no reason for Ace to be any higher than YC4. Can you see him overwhelming G4 like how commanders like Cracker and Katakuri did (YC3 and a YC1)? He lost to a pre gura teach. I’d say YC4 is perfect tier for him.


Cracker never overwhelmed G4. He kept up with it.

Ace was an equal to Jimbe before getting groomed by WB and getting 2 years experience. The same Jimbe that both Sengoku and BM consider a big part of their military power. The same Jimbei that is now a part of M3 and so is portrayed as at least YC3/4. Jimbe is a middle aged man that is on his prime and has been under World Government protection, and later, BM's protection, there's nothing telling us he did much fighting since fighting Ace, while Ace was an incredibly talented and with great potential young man who was specifically trained by WB to become the PK (And that means WSM) and fought several NW vets for 2 years.

Ace clearly surpassed Jimbe by the time he fought Teach. And that means he was probably closer to YC1 than to YC4.

Pre Gura teach put a lifelong scar on Shank's face. He killed Tatch, was named to be 2nd Commander and made someone like Shiryu his subordinate. He was probably above YC1 by the time he got the Gura.


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## YonkoDrippy (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Cracker never overwhelmed G4. He kept up with it.


By feats, Ace would get blitzed by G4. Cracker still has the better feats.


Strobacaxi said:


> Ace was an equal to Jimbe before getting groomed by WB and getting 2 years experience. The same Jimbe that both Sengoku and BM consider a big part of their military power. The same Jimbei that is now a part of M3 and so is portrayed as at least YC3/4. Jimbe is a middle aged man that is on his prime and has been under World Government protection, and later, BM's protection, there's nothing telling us he did much fighting since fighting Ace, while Ace was an incredibly talented and with great potential young man who was specifically trained by WB to become the PK (And that means WSM) and fought several NW vets for 2 years.


Ace did have potential to be a Top tier yes, but he wasn’t. We don’t know how strong Ace or Jinbei was at the time. They could’ve been veteran lvl for all we know. Those 2 years on WB ship only pushed him to be YC4 not any higher. Vista, Jozu and Marco were all quite a bit more impressive than Ace. Can you see him blocking a slash from Mihawk? Or blocking a magma fist from Akainu? Lol we already saw that happen and it didnt end well for Ace


Strobacaxi said:


> Ace clearly surpassed Jimbe by the time he fought Teach. And that means he was probably closer to YC1 than to YC4.


Nope just YC4.


Strobacaxi said:


> Pre Gura teach put a lifelong scar on Shank's face. He killed Tatch, was named to be 2nd Commander and made someone like Shiryu his subordinate. He was probably above YC1 by the time he got the Gura.


He put a scar on Shanks when he wasn’t even a Yonko yet. We don’t know how strong shanks was at the time. Yami Teach was YC3 Lvl. Which makes sense since he beat Ace a YC4.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> By feats, Ace would get blitzed by G4. Cracker still has the better feats.


What? Ace was never blitzed by anyone, including admirals, what makes you think G4 would blitz him?
I don't remember Cracker stopping an admiral in his tracks. Blackbeard told his future YCs that they were no match for Ace. 




YonkoDrippy said:


> We don’t know how strong Ace or Jinbei was at the time. They could’ve been veteran lvl for all we know.


Any reason to believe Jimbe got any stronger since? Nothing points at him having fought any serious fights, or training.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Can you see him blocking a slash from Mihawk?


I can. Akainu very specifically said his fruit/Ace's overconfidence made the difference against Ace.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Lol we already saw that happen and it didnt end well for Ace


We also saw what happened when he tried to block Aokiji didn't we?



YonkoDrippy said:


> He put a scar on Shanks when he wasn’t even a Yonko yet. We don’t know how strong shanks was at the time. Yami Teach was YC3 Lvl. Which makes sense since he beat Ace a YC4.


If Shanks was weak when BB scared him, then he wouldn't have used that scar to show WB that BB was a real threat. Clearly that conversation shows that it wouldn't have been easy to scar him like that regardless of the time. 
A YC3 would never manage to get Shyriuu under him. A YC3 couldn't kill Tatch, a YC4, quickly enough that the crew wouldn't wake up and stop him. And that was pre Yami. A YC3 wouldn't tank a WB gura attack point blank. A YC3 wouldn't be able to stop a WB punch like he did, he may have stopped the Gura Gura, but his fruit can't do shit about WB's actual strength.

Teach was always portrayed as stronger than most YCs.


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## Kroczilla (Dec 5, 2020)

Mini-Rant. Its been on my mind for a while and this seems like the perfect thread to get out with it.

If it were up to me, i would do with the whole YC1/2/3/4 nonsense as it imho doesnt always do a good job of reflecting the strength of the various xters. 

Take the WB pirates for example. Yes Marco is the de facto leader after WB's demise and thus the default YC 1, but its not certain he can beat Jozu or Vista. 

Similarly with the Beast pirates where King and Queen are depicted more as rivals with nothing to suggest that one is a full step over the other. Yet that has and will undoubtedly be the fan lore.

Now some will point to the Big mom pirates and Shanks crew, where Katakuri and Ben beckman are the strongest within their respective crew save for their captains. As this is certainly true, to an extent.

Yes Katakuri would body cracker in a fight, but Cracker's AP and agility is easily comparable to Katakuri (nearly sliced off G4 luffy's arm and was dancing around his attacks after he lost his armour). Frankly but for his advanced COO, i dont think Kata has any other advantages over cracker i would call "decisive".

And i suspect the same will be the case when we meet Shanks' crew.


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## YonkoDrippy (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> What? Ace was never blitzed by anyone, including admirals, what makes you think G4 would blitz him?
> I don't remember Cracker stopping an admiral in his tracks. Blackbeard told his future YCs that they were no match for Ace.


Cause G4 was keeping up with Katakuri who was blitzing G2 Luffy who’s >>>>preskip Luffy in speed who could blitz a off guard Teach who was shitting on Ace. Cracker has never fought an Admiral on panel lol. If he did I’m sure he could stall an Admiral as can any YC. Ofc none of Blackbeard’s men were a match for Ace. A YC4 is significantly stronger than anyone beneath that tier (Blackbeard’s men). 


Strobacaxi said:


> Any reason to believe Jimbe got any stronger since? Nothing points at him having fought any serious fights, or training.


He probably isn’t Significantly stronger but he is marginally stronger. Look at his feats against nerfed BM


Strobacaxi said:


> I can. Akainu very specifically said his fruit/Ace's overconfidence made the difference against Ace.


Lol he’s a glass canon. And nowhere near Jozu in durability, and he isn’t a powerful swordsman like Vista. That slash would’ve took him out.


Strobacaxi said:


> We also saw what happened when he tried to block Aokiji didn't we?


Yea but Jozu and Marco were holding off Aokiji. Doesn’t mean Ace is above YC4


Strobacaxi said:


> If Shanks was weak when BB scared him, then he wouldn't have used that scar to show WB that BB was a real threat. Clearly that conversation shows that it wouldn't have been easy to scar him like that regardless of the time.


Maybe. But it doesn’t mean Ace is Above YC4.


Strobacaxi said:


> A YC3 would never manage to get Shyriuu under him.


They could actually. Since shiryu is only equal to Magellan who would definitely lose to a YC3 like Vista or Cracker.


Strobacaxi said:


> A YC3 couldn't kill Tatch, a YC4, quickly enough that the crew wouldn't wake up and stop him. And that was pre Yami.


I don’t get this part. What YC3 couldn’t kill thatch?


Strobacaxi said:


> A YC3 wouldn't tank a WB gura attack point blank.


A heavily injured, sick, on deaths door WB? It’s no surprise Teach tanked it when he’s been shown to extremely durable. I highly doubt he would tank one from a healthy WB.


Strobacaxi said:


> A YC3 wouldn't be able to stop a WB punch like he did, he may have stopped the Gura Gura, but his fruit can't do shit about WB's actual strength.
> 
> Teach was always portrayed as stronger than most YCs.


WB punch pales in comparison to Gura Gura. Sure he’s physically very strong but I can see a dying WB punch getting stopped by a YC3. Yami Teach is YC3. No way he would’ve beaten Jozu or Marco.


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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Ace is not Yonko commander number 3.
Marco, Jozu and Vista are all stronger then him.

I think the Beast pirates commanders are close in power with BM sweet commanders, WBs commanders are close to Shanks commanders with Ben Beckman being the biggest standout out of the whole group by a good margin.

Ben 100

Marco 92
King 89
Lucky 87
Kata 87

Jozu 85
Yassop 83
Vista 83
Queen 82
Smoothie 80

cracker 79
jack 78
DD 77
Perospero 73

Ace 69
Snack 67
Thatch ??


shanks other commanders
F6 ?? (Differing numbers)
BM vets
WBs other commanders

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Tenma (Dec 5, 2020)

We all know chad Rakuyo was the real YC3


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## TheWiggian (Dec 5, 2020)

Tenma said:


> We all know chad Rakuyo was the real YC3



Rakuyo legit fought Kizaru in the war, dude is a full blown YFM.


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## Corax (Dec 5, 2020)

I think one step in difficulty between each position. So FM high diffs YC2 and mid diffs YC3. FM vs FM is an extreme diff. Though not all crews are equal,but in general this should be right.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 5, 2020)

If Cracker is 2000 doriki and Katakuri is 4000 then Smoothi is 3000
High diff fight to win against the person below you in the tier. Mid Diff for the person two tiers below 

Like Brooke -> Diamante -> Who's Who.....probably


Beast said:


> Ace is not Yonko commander number 3.
> Marco, Jozu and Vista are all stronger then him.


Entei >>> Vista

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> If Cracker is 2000 doriki and Katakuri is 4000 then Smoothi is 3000
> High diff fight to win against the person below you in the tier. Mid Diff for the person two tiers below
> 
> Like Brooke -> Diamante -> Who's Who.....probably
> ...


Mihawk>>>>> Entei 

Yassop Rivalry hype>>> Aces Hype

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Cause G4 was keeping up with Katakuri who was blitzing G2 Luffy who’s >>>>preskip Luffy in speed who could blitz a off guard Teach who was shitting on Ace. Cracker has never fought an Admiral on panel lol. If he did I’m sure he could stall an Admiral as can any YC. Ofc none of Blackbeard’s men were a match for Ace. A YC4 is significantly stronger than anyone beneath that tier (Blackbeard’s men).


Again, Admirals didn't blitz Ace. Teach let Luffy hit him lol, he didn't give a darn about the kid. 
Laffite is most likely YC3 or above currently, no reason to say he was that much below a supposed YC4 2 years ago.



YonkoDrippy said:


> He probably isn’t Significantly stronger but he is marginally stronger. Look at his feats against nerfed BM


If he's marginally stronger why are you saying Jimbe was a Vet level back then? Veteran level to YC3+ isn't getting marginally stronger. There's a large difference between Oven and Cracker.



YonkoDrippy said:


> Lol he’s a glass canon. And nowhere near Jozu in durability, and he isn’t a powerful swordsman like Vista. That slash would’ve took him out.


He's a glass canon when he gets hit unexpectedly by incredibly powerful people, like BB or Akainu. 
Not to mention Ace wouldn't actually be hit by that attack at all.




YonkoDrippy said:


> Yea but Jozu and Marco were holding off Aokiji. Doesn’t mean Ace is above YC4


So YC1 and YC2 were doing the same thing Ace did? That kinda points at Ace being above YC4...




YonkoDrippy said:


> Maybe. But it doesn’t mean Ace is Above YC4.


No, but it implies Teach is not a simple YC3. Which was the point.



YonkoDrippy said:


> They could actually. Since shiryu is only equal to Magellan who would definitely lose to a YC3 like Vista or Cracker.


Shiryu is literally YC1... 




YonkoDrippy said:


> I don’t get this part. What YC3 couldn’t kill thatch?


You missed the "quickly enough that no one in the crew stopped him" part? It's one thing to kill Tatch, it's another to kill him in a couple of minutes. 




YonkoDrippy said:


> A heavily injured, sick, on deaths door WB? It’s no surprise Teach tanked it when he’s been shown to extremely durable. I highly doubt he would tank one from a healthy WB.


The exact same WB who got Akainu falling on a hole in fetus position, yes.





YonkoDrippy said:


> WB punch pales in comparison to Gura Gura. Sure he’s physically very strong but I can see a dying WB punch getting stopped by a YC3. Yami Teach is YC3. No way he would’ve beaten Jozu or Marco.


With just physical strength and haki he and Roger clashed and caused the greatest shockwave we've ever seen from 2 attacks clashing.
WB was a fucking beast physically. Even close to dying, no YC3 is stopping that punch easily with one hand.

Yami Teach would most likely destroy Marco. Marco relies way too much on his powers.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 5, 2020)

Beast said:


> Mihawk>>>>> Entei
> 
> Yassop Rivalry hype>>> Aces Hype


Mihawk at Marineford isnt a good measuring stick. Dude wasnt holding back and still was having trouble tagging Luffy.

I'll give you the 2nd though I still think Vista would be screwed if Entei landed.


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## Draco Bolton (Dec 5, 2020)

IMO Overall

YC3 mid-high diff YC4.
YC2 extrem diff YC3.
YC1 high-extrem diff YC2.
YC1 mid-high diff YC3.
YC1 low-mid diff YC4.
YC2 mid diff YC4.

It can vary with the crews, the characters.

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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Mihawk at Marineford isnt a good measuring stick. Dude wasnt holding back and still was having trouble tagging Luffy.
> 
> I'll give you the 2nd though I still think Vista would be screwed if Entei landed.


Facing a top tier for a duration is much better feat then being able to defend against entei.

Well, hard to say... we haven’t even seen a named attack from Vista.  I think he can just do a air slash that could match or cut through the fire. I’m sure Ace would be dead as well if he Vista is able to land a full named attacked as well, so...


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 5, 2020)

Beast said:


> Facing a top tier for a duration is much better feat then being able to defend against entei.
> 
> Well, hard to say... we haven’t even seen a named attack from Vista.  I think he can just do a air slash that could match or cut through the fire. I’m sure Ace would be dead as well if he Vista is able to land a full named attacked as well, so...


Lol, not when that Top Tier is Marineford Mihawk. We know Preskip Luffy could evade so engaging doesnt necessarily put you at a level above Ace. In that same battle Vista with backup didnt drop Vice Admiral Ronse but maybe Ronse is Commander level, who knows?

Maybe, maybe not. Ace has mad endurance considering he fought an extreme diff fight for 5 days then still got up and fought Whitebeard twice. Vista. Vista could have town sized slashes but until he shows them or more feats he under Ace for me.


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## Great Potato (Dec 5, 2020)

I'd say YC1 high-diffs YC2, mid-diffs YC3, and low-diffs YC4; all relative to their crews of course. Match-ups may cause some variance as well, I can see Smoothie mid-diff Cracker and Jozu mid-diff Vista just because they have very favorable match-ups against them.

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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

Wait why is Cracker a favorable match up with Smoothie? I've legitimately forgotten anything Smoothie has ever done. Isn't her fruit used to dry stuff?


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Wait why is Cracker a favorable match up with Smoothie? I've legitimately forgotten anything Smoothie has ever done. Isn't her fruit used to dry stuff?


She absorbs the water and grows larger and can then fire off a huge water slicer.

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## Vivo Diez (Dec 5, 2020)

Seems to me that haki and physical stat wise YC1-YC3 aren't that insanely different, and in some areas a YC2 or a YC3 might be superior. Marco and Vista both failed to cut Akainu, Jozu managed to make an admiral get a light bleed while Marco failed to do. Katakuri and Cracker both railroaded G2/G3 Luffy and afair Katakuri only believed that Luffy could have had a chance at putting up a fight against Cracker after he saw G4, with which Luffy was finally able to put up a fight against Katakuri as well.

YC1 just tend to have a gimmick that put them above the rest of the commanders. Marco with his regen and Katakuri with his FS.


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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Lol, not when that Top Tier is Marineford Mihawk. We know Preskip Luffy could evade so engaging doesnt necessarily put you at a level above Ace. In that same battle Vista with backup didnt drop Vice Admiral Ronse but maybe Ronse is Commander level, who knows?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. Ace has mad endurance considering he fought an extreme diff fight for 5 days then still got up and fought Whitebeard twice. Vista. Vista could have town sized slashes but until he shows them or more feats he under Ace for me.


He was fucking with Luffy, when he said he would take him seriously, luffy unlocked KH and Vista was sent into to help him, plus Luffy is PIS walking, he took a kick from Kizaru and a punch from Sengoku, when he should have been killed, so hardly a thing against Mihawk and how serious he was in general. Vista is the only Yonko commander to fight a top tier without any nerfs or an ability set to stall others, Ace would not be putting in the same work against Mihawk, Maybe against Aokiji thanks to his fire ability but every other top tier would stomp Ace.
While, vista can hold his own against a top tier specialising in the same type of fighting style.

You mean stamina? I don’t think any yonko commander is lacking in that department, the long day fights seem to always suggest how close the two fighters are, endurance is quite hard to tell from just that since we don’t get to see the fight. Yeah, you can say that about pretty much anybody. Till Ace shows betters feats vista is above him, which he cants because he is dead.


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Seems to be that haki and physical stat wise YC1-YC3 aren't that insanely different, and in some areas a YC2 or a YC3 might be superior. Marco and Vista both failed to cut Akainu, Jozu managed to make an admiral get a light bleed while Marco failed to do. Katakuri and Cracker both railroaded G2/G3 Luffy and afair Katakuri only believed that Luffy could have had a chance at putting up a fight against Cracker after he saw G4, with which Luffy was finally able to put up a fight against Katakuri as well.
> 
> YC1 just tend to have a gimmick that put them above the rest of the commanders. Marco with his regen and Katakuri with his FS.


YC1 might also just have better DF mastery than the other commanders. Katakuri's the only YC we've seen with awakening so far but I wouldn't be surprised if Marco and King also had it.


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## Vivo Diez (Dec 5, 2020)

xenos5 said:


> YC1 might also just have better DF mastery than the other commanders. Katakuri's the only YC we've seen with awakening so far but I wouldn't be surprised if Marco and King also had it.


It's possible, although so far it seems just whoever faces Luffy ends up having awakening. Cracker is both stronger and more experienced than DD who had awakening, one would assume he would have it as well. But in Cracker's case I'm not sure how an awakening would even work. He could already spam biscuit soldiers out of thin air with minimal effort, having to use the environment to create them would seem like a downgrade.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 5, 2020)

Beast said:


> He was fucking with Luffy, when he said he would take him seriously, luffy unlocked KH and Vista was sent into to help him, plus Luffy is PIS walking, he took a kick from Kizaru and a punch from Sengoku, when he should have been killed, so hardly a thing against Mihawk and how serious he was in general. Vista is the only Yonko commander to fight a top tier without any nerfs or an ability set to stall others, Ace would not be putting in the same work against Mihawk, Maybe against Aokiji thanks to his fire ability but every other top tier would stomp Ace.
> While, vista can hold his own against a top tier specialising in the same type of fighting style.
> 
> You mean stamina? I don’t think any yonko commander is lacking in that department, the long day fights seem to always suggest how close the two fighters are, endurance is quite hard to tell from just that since we don’t get to see the fight. Yeah, you can say that about pretty much anybody. Till Ace shows betters feats vista is above him, which he cants because he is dead.


Yeah we just disagree on how impressive fighting Mihawk at Marineford is. If Mihawk is actually on Shanks level, then Vista should be no challenge to him at all as we've seen from Ronse, Luffy, Queen, and the Scabbarfs, commander level folks are no match for Yonku caliber fighters let alone being able to score points in a one vs one against them. We just wont disagree here I suppose.

Side note: Aokiji matched Akainu whose fruit is directly superior to Aces so if anything, Ace is at a disadvantage to Aokiji in fruit powers. His fruit is on the level of Monets


Both? Stamina to continue using his powers and endurance to keep getting up and fighting. What I mean is that it remains to be seen that Vista could ever oneshot Ace since we've seen nothing from him.


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> It's possible, although so far it seems just whoever faces Luffy ends up having awakening. Cracker is both stronger and more experienced than DD who had awakening, one would assume he would have it as well.


If he had it I don't know why he'd hold back it after having to fight for so many hours.


Vivo Diez said:


> But in Cracker's case I'm not sure how an awakening would even work. He could already spam biscuit soldiers out of thin air with minimal effort, having to use the environment to create them would seem like a downgrade.


I see some advantages. He could spawn them right behind an opponent, spawn an entire group completely surrounding an opponent, just have the biscuit ground swallow up the opponent and crush them by compressing, or create some giant mega biscuit soldier.


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## B Rabbit (Dec 5, 2020)

To be fair, end of series these rankings would be non existent.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## xenos5 (Dec 5, 2020)

B Rabbit said:


> To be fair, end of series these rankings would be non existent.


I guess so. A lot of characters could definitely return way stronger than they were initially. Especially if some Yonko get dethroned/killed so the next strongest members of Yonko crews have to step up to fill the power and leadership vacuum.


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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Yeah we just disagree on how impressive fighting Mihawk at Marineford is. If Mihawk is actually on Shanks level, then Vista should be no challenge to him at all as we've seen from Ronse, Luffy, Queen, and the Scabbarfs, commander level folks are no match for Yonku caliber fighters let alone being able to score points in a one vs one against them. We just wont disagree here I suppose.
> 
> Side note: Aokiji matched Akainu whose fruit is directly superior to Aces so if anything, Ace is at a disadvantage to Aokiji in fruit powers. His fruit is on the level of Monets
> 
> ...


That’s the only thing Vista has done on panel. Vista along with Jozu and Marco have been highlighted as the strongest commanders from WBs crew. Ace was still a rookie, that had a lot of room to grow. Vista didn’t score any points against Mihawk, only that Mihawk had shown him respect  and he could hold his own like top commanders can against Yonko/ Admirals, examples being Jozu and Marco, the same ones that got the same type of portrayal as him.  

Yeah, not how it works. Akainu is superior to Aces fruit, Aokijis fruit is in no way has any advantage over either, they both cancel him out, same way he cancels them out. Aokiji has no advantage over Aces fruit only Monets. Marcos fire has no advantage over Aces or Akainu’s but does over BMs homie flame, So everything is not so one linear.

stamina and will power you mean, Ace got up to save his crew mates and created a fire around himself, how much damage he took we don’t know, so we can’t every quantify how high his endurance is. Considering that vista was matching Mihawk blow for blow, the same Mihawk who was cutting mountain sides icebergs as san aftermath from his swing, I don’t see why not. Ace doesn’t actually have any on panel durabilty feats, BBs chop that was put off almost snapped his neck, so Vista landing a named attack... I don’t see why not.

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## Great Potato (Dec 5, 2020)

xenos5 said:


> YC1 might also just have better DF mastery than the other commanders. Katakuri's the only YC we've seen with awakening so far but I wouldn't be surprised if Marco and King also had it.





Vivo Diez said:


> It's possible, although so far it seems just whoever faces Luffy ends up having awakening. Cracker is both stronger and more experienced than DD who had awakening, one would assume he would have it as well. But in Cracker's case I'm not sure how an awakening would even work. He could already spam biscuit soldiers out of thin air with minimal effort, having to use the environment to create them would seem like a downgrade.





xenos5 said:


> If he had it I don't know why he'd hold back it after having to fight for so many hours.
> 
> I see some advantages. He could spawn them right behind an opponent, spawn an entire group completely surrounding an opponent, just have the biscuit ground swallow up the opponent and crush them by compressing, or create some giant mega biscuit soldier.



There is evidence of Cracker having used awakening in his fight with Luffy off-panel. At the end of Chapter 841 once we cut back to the fight we see the entire surrounding environment from the ground to a large bridge in the background had been transformed into biscuits with the exact pattern as the ones that Cracker produces (complete with bite marks taken out of them), looks very strongly like awakening to me because the area didn't look like that at all before we cut away.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 2 | Useful 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 5, 2020)

Beast said:


> That’s the only thing Vista has done on panel. Vista along with Jozu and Marco have been highlighted as the strongest commanders from WBs crew. Ace was still a rookie, that had a lot of room to grow. Vista didn’t score any points against Mihawk, only that Mihawk had shown him respect  and he could hold his own like top commanders can against Yonko/ Admirals, examples being Jozu and Marco, the same ones that got the same type of portrayal as him.
> 
> Yeah, not how it works. Akainu is superior to Aces fruit, Aokijis fruit is in no way has any advantage over either, they both cancel him out, same way he cancels them out. Aokiji has no advantage over Aces fruit only Monets. Marcos fire has no advantage over Aces or Akainu’s but does over BMs homie flame, So everything is not so one linear.
> 
> stamina and will power you mean, Ace got up to save his crew mates and created a fire around himself, how much damage he took we don’t know, so we can’t every quantify how high his endurance is. Considering that vista was matching Mihawk blow for blow, the same Mihawk who was cutting mountain sides icebergs as san aftermath from his swing, I don’t see why not. Ace doesn’t actually have any on panel durabilty feats, BBs chop that was put off almost snapped his neck, so Vista landing a named attack... I don’t see why not.


I disagree with you on basically every point but we can agree to disagree.

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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 5, 2020)

it's a crew to crew thing like people said. king is singled out, he's the first commander, but his interactions with queen imply a degree of rivalry. katakuri always seemed head and shoulders the top dog of BM's crew. maybe i'm hazy because wc was a little while ago tho.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> There is evidence of Cracker having used awakening in his fight with Luffy off-panel.


I had never noticed this, but it's true. The floor is biscuits on bottom left panels


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## Great Potato (Dec 5, 2020)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> it's a crew to crew thing like people said. king is singled out, he's the first commander, but his interactions with queen imply a degree of rivalry. katakuri always seemed head and shoulders the top dog of BM's crew. maybe i'm hazy because wc was a little while ago tho.



I think a large part of that is because the Beast Pirates are just naturally a much more competitive crew, they have a dog eat dog mentality where you rise the ranks by challenging those above you. We have headliner's in the BPs talking about how they'll be taking a seat from the Flying 6, while the Flying 6 themselves have openly challenged Jack and King to a fight for their spots.

Big Mom's crew is a family unit where there's much more respect for the hierarchy. You'd never catch Oven scheming about overthrowing Cracker or Katakuri to take their spot, or have Opera bragging about how he'll upstage Daifuku as a figurehead. The closest we got to discourse of that sort was Perospero suggesting he should become leader in Big Mom's absence because he's the most senior child and advisor, but he was quickly put in his place by the rest of the crew and that was the end of it.

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## Shunsuiju (Dec 5, 2020)

It's weird when people act like Vista fighting Mihawk was quote on quote no big deal, but in the same token act like Vista is definitely the third strongest commander and close to Marco/Jozu, as if Marco and Jozu weren't portrayed as people who could do more than just clash with Mihawk.

EDIT: Vista fighting Mihawk wasn't the only thing that solidified him as third. He was the one who fought next to Marco after Jozu went down. But it was definitely there to show that Vista could keep up with the big dogs like Jozu, Marco, Mihawk and the Admirals.


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## Ezekjuninor (Dec 5, 2020)

I'd say YC1 requires mid-upper end of high diff to beat a YC2, same for YC2 vs YC3 and YC3 vs YC4. 
I'd say the only exception might be Beckman if he stands out even greater than the others in Shank's crew like how Rayleigh does with Roger. 
YC1 vs YC3 is probably mid diff same as YC2 vs YC4 and YC1 vs YC4 probably just low-diff.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 5, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> I'd say the only exception might be Beckman if he stands out even greater than the others in Shank's crew like how Rayleigh does with Roger.


Scopper was portrayed quite close to Rayleigh actually.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> I think a large part of that is because the Beast Pirates are just naturally a much more competitive crew, they have a dog eat dog mentality where you rise the ranks by challenging those above you. We have headliner's in the BPs talking about how they'll be taking a seat from the Flying 6, while the Flying 6 themselves have openly challenged Jack and King to a fight for their spots.
> 
> Big Mom's crew is a family unit where there's much more respect for the hierarchy. You'd never catch Oven scheming about overthrowing Cracker or Katakuri to take their spot, or have Opera bragging about how he'll upstage Daifuku as a figurehead. The closest we got to discourse of that sort was Perospero suggesting he should become leader in Big Mom's absence because he's the most senior child and advisor, but he was quickly put in his place by the rest of the crew and that was the end of it.


I agree with everything you said.

But even if the BM crew had the "dog eat dog mentality" no one would ever challenge katakuri, because he was so much stronger than everyone else. Like they all 100% rejected the idea that he could possibly have been defeated by Luffy


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> I agree with everything you said.
> 
> But even if the BM crew had the "dog eat dog mentality" no one would ever challenge katakuri, because he was so much stronger than everyone else. *Like they all 100% rejected the idea that he could possibly have been defeated by Luffy*


That was Oven.


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## Ezekjuninor (Dec 5, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Scopper was portrayed quite close to Rayleigh actually.


Not really the only time would be when they were shown side to side in front of Oden.

Rayleigh was known as Roger's partner and was nicknamed the Dark King. He was highlighted as a legend that required preparation by Garp and could hold off and injure an admiral even in his old rusty state. Also, if I remember correctly he was the only crewmember at the end of the Roger vs WB battle that appeared untouched. He also seems to view Roger as his peer which we didn't see from anyone else in the crew. To be fair Scopper hasn't had as much panel time but imo Rayleigh was a decent bit above him.


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## Beast (Dec 5, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> It's weird when people act like Vista fighting Mihawk was quote on quote no big deal, but in the same token act like Vista is definitely the third strongest commander and close to Marco/Jozu, as if Marco and Jozu weren't portrayed as people who could do more than just clash with Mihawk.
> 
> EDIT: Vista fighting Mihawk wasn't the only thing that solidified him as third. He was the one who fought next to Marco after Jozu went down. But it was definitely there to show that Vista could keep up with the big dogs like Jozu, Marco, Mihawk and the Admirals.


Vista also has rivalry with Yassop to solidify his portrayal.

Marco, Jozu and Vista are quite close to each other in power tbh.


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## Shunsuiju (Dec 5, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Not really the only time would be when they were shown side to side in front of Oden.
> 
> Rayleigh was known as Roger's partner and was nicknamed the Dark King. He was highlighted as a legend that required preparation by Garp and could hold off and injure an admiral even in his old rusty state. Also, if I remember correctly he was the only crewmember at the end of the Roger vs WB battle that appeared untouched. He also seems to view Roger as his peer which we didn't see from anyone else in the crew. To be fair Scopper hasn't had as much panel time but imo Rayleigh was a decent bit above him.


Ok but you're acting like Katakuri would be closer to someone like Smoothie than Rayleigh would be to the Sanji of the Roger pirates hence thinking Beckman would be further from someone like Lucky.

High-diff sounds about right in both cases.


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 5, 2020)

Beast said:


> Vista also has rivalry with Yassop to solidify his portrayal.


Where does this come from?


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## Great Potato (Dec 5, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Where does this come from?



One of the databooks said the two of them were rivals, and there's also a panel in Marineford where the two of them appear to be glaring at each other in the background.

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## Dragon D Xebec (Dec 5, 2020)

My ranking:

Benn Beckman: 100
Marco/Katakuri: 90
Lucky Roo: 88
Jozu: 87
Yasopp/Vista: 85
King: 84
Queen: 83
Cracker: 80
Jack: 76
Smoothie: 75

YC one is the strongest commander in yonko crew. Similarly with YC two and three. Not all strongest commander is equal imo.

Benn is obvious the strongest. VC compared him to Shanks. Stopped Kizaru at MF. Marco has hype as well. Fought admirals even though those admirals weren't serious it's still a good feat. He's also RHM of WSM WB. Katakuri is also portrayed as one of the mightiest when Rayleigh explained FS. He also has good feat as well.

Benn and Katakuri are way above their fellow YC. Marco looks close to Jozu and Vista. Jozu and Vista are stronger than regular YC two and three respectively imo.

Similarly King, Queen and Jack are also relatively close in power.

I put Roo over Yasopp because Yasopp will fight Van Augur and Van Augur will be Usopp's main fight from BBP. Usopp would surpass his father and Oda said no matter who joins SHP, Usopp will remain the weakest. Imo Usopp, the weakest SH might be high YC three level.

There is also rivalry between Vista and Yasopp so I put Vista slightly over Yasopp due to Vista feat against Mihawk but Vista and Yasopp should be close in power.

Benn is the strongest YC one, Lucky Roo is the strongest YC two and Yasopp is the strongest YC three.

By feat and portrayal Cracker should be above Smoothie. Cracker is portrayed as an enemy that Luffy needed to beat with Nami's help. And this after Luffy beat DOflamingo with Gear Four. Lower bounty doesn't put Cracker below Smoothie since Pero has higher bounty than Snack and Pero is not YC.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Dec 5, 2020)

Shunsuiju said:


> Ok but you're acting like Katakuri would be closer to someone like Smoothie than Rayleigh would be to the Sanji of the Roger pirates hence thinking Beckman would be further from someone like Lucky.
> 
> High-diff sounds about right in both cases.


I'd estimate Scopper as very slightly stronger than Marco while I rate Rayleigh ~Shanks level. So if they had a fight it'd be mid diff maybe upper mid diff. While I think a fight between most YC1 and YC2 would be at the least high diff.

So if Beckman is exceptional even in comparison to the rest of the Red hair crew, which he has the hype to suggest that, the gap between him and the YC2 (probably lucky roo) would be bigger than seen in other crews.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 5, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> I think a large part of that is because the Beast Pirates are just naturally a much more competitive crew, they have a dog eat dog mentality where you rise the ranks by challenging those above you. We have headliner's in the BPs talking about how they'll be taking a seat from the Flying 6, while the Flying 6 themselves have openly challenged Jack and King to a fight for their spots.
> 
> Big Mom's crew is a family unit where there's much more respect for the hierarchy. You'd never catch Oven scheming about overthrowing Cracker or Katakuri to take their spot, or have Opera bragging about how he'll upstage Daifuku as a figurehead. The closest we got to discourse of that sort was Perospero suggesting he should become leader in Big Mom's absence because he's the most senior child and advisor, but he was quickly put in his place by the rest of the crew and that was the end of it.


this makes sense and we really haven't seen enough from smoothie to say for sure. my prediction is when we finally get the queen and king fights we'll see they are relatively close but who knows. the last chapter kind of through a wrench in what i (still) thought would happen tho.


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## convict (Dec 5, 2020)

1 mid diffs 2 who high diffs 3 who mid diffs 4

1 low diffs 3 and stomps4

Though it varies


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Dec 5, 2020)

convict said:


> 1 mid diffs 2 who high diffs 3 who mid diffs 4
> 
> 1 low diffs 3 and stomps4
> 
> Though it varies


This seems like the exception not the rule of what we’ve seen. I think this only applies to bm.


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## GucciBandana (Dec 5, 2020)

If levels designed by Oda aren't even the same exact level, like 3 great powers aren't the same level, Shichibukais aren't the same exact level, Yonkos aren't the same exact level, then the concept of fan made terms, like a YC3/4 such as Jack or Snack must be the same level as Vista or Ace makes no sense to me at all.

if we go by BM system, then Marco, Ace, Jozu prob all YC1 level to me, Vista is a strong YC2.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Jo Ndule (Dec 6, 2020)

WB YC1 was Ace
Ace was equal or surpassed Marco a bit before dying

Ace has freaking CoC and powerful logia + better combat skills.
Captain : WB 
YC1 : Ace
YC2 and Yc3 : Marco and Jozu
YC4 : Vista

The battle between WB top 4 is high/eztreme diff , they are close to each other. Marco can't even beat Jozu or Ace.

WB is the only one to top 4 commanrers who are close to each there like this in overall power.

Captaib : BM 
YC0 : Katakuri
YC1 : Smoothie
YC2 : Cracker
Yc3 : Perospero
YC4. Snack

Katakuri is a clear cut from smoothie and Cracker...he can mid diff both or any YC from any crew except Benn since he was able to easily mid diff boundman.
Cracker vs Smoothie is high high diff W for Smoothie

Captain : Kaido 
YC1 : Doffy/Yamato
YC2 & YC3 : King and Queen
YC4 : Jack

Dont be fooled by their bounties for being dangerous to civilians and so.
King and Queen are just like Marco and jozu, equals who aren't really above doffy/Cracker and they lack CoC
If King or Marco were special, they would have CoC or top tier haki.

King /Queen High diff Jack


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## Lord Stark (Dec 6, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> There is evidence of Cracker having used awakening in his fight with Luffy off-panel. At the end of Chapter 841 once we cut back to the fight we see the entire surrounding environment from the ground to a large bridge in the background had been transformed into biscuits with the exact pattern as the ones that Cracker produces (complete with bite marks taken out of them), looks very strongly like awakening to me because the area didn't look like that at all before we cut away.



I don't think so. It was specifically noted when Katakuri did it and Cracker was not mentioned.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Great Potato (Dec 6, 2020)

Lord Stark said:


> I don't think so. It was specifically noted when Katakuri did it and Cracker was not mentioned.





How else would you explain the entire battlefield being transmuted to biscuits if not awakening? Every scene prior to this the ground and environment was perfectly ordinary and normal throughout, but after we cut back the entire area is suddenly now made of Cracker's biscuits, which Oda even went through the effort of illustrating Luffy had also been eating along with the soldiers.

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## Lord Stark (Dec 6, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> How else would you explain the entire battlefield being transmuted to biscuits if not awakening? Every scene prior to this the ground and environment was perfectly ordinary and normal ground throughout, but after we cut back the entire area is suddenly now made of Cracker's biscuits, which Oda even went through the effort of illustrating Luffy had also been eating along with the soldiers.



Because there is biscuit infrastructure all across WCI. In the panel above you posted there are, entire buildings made of it and we see soldiers made of it. Its also clearly stated that Luffy's been running in the panel you posted.  Its more likely they just moved to an area where there is biscuit infrastructure already built.


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## Great Potato (Dec 6, 2020)

Lord Stark said:


> Because there is biscuit infrastructure all across WCI. In the panel above you posted there are, entire buildings made of it and we see soldiers made of it. Its also clearly stated that Luffy's been running in the panel you posted.  Its more likely they just moved to an area where there is biscuit infrastructure already built.



Why would Luffy have started eating the surroundings if it was just random infrastructure and not an ability that Cracker was actively trying to use against him? He was already at his limit of what he could eat and complaining that he was about to burst, so I doubt he'd just start chewing the scenery unless it was something coming straight from Cracker himself.

Also, infrastructure is a key word. We saw buildings that had biscuits smoothly integrated into their designs here and there, like the floor, ceiling, or wall of select houses or rooms. This wasn't a place of infrastructure, it's a random area dead in the middle of the Seducing Woods and we don't see the ground randomly comprised of Cracker biscuits like this anywhere else on the island. It's technically possible that Cracker laid down biscuit flooring in this one random secluded area and Luffy just happened upon it while fighting him and got the urge to eat it, but that would be misleading from Oda and I don't feel it's the more likely explanation.


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## Lord Stark (Dec 6, 2020)

Great Potato said:


> Why would Luffy have started eating the surroundings if it was just random infrastructure and not an ability that Cracker was actively trying to use against him? He was already at his limit of what he could eat and complaining that he was about to burst, so I doubt he'd just start chewing the scenery unless it was something coming straight from Cracker himself.
> 
> Also, infrastructure is a key word. We saw buildings that had biscuits smoothly integrated into their designs here and there, like the floor, ceiling, or wall of select houses or rooms. This wasn't a place of infrastructure, it's a random area dead in the middle of the Seducing Woods and we don't see the ground randomly comprised of Cracker biscuits like this anywhere else on the island. It's technically possible that Cracker laid down biscuit flooring in this one random secluded area and Luffy just happened upon it while fighting him and got the urge to eat it, but that would be misleading from Oda and I don't feel it's the more likely explanation.



Because its a gag. If it was awakened why wouldn't Cracker use it to apprehend Luffy?  He's not shown to have any on panel control of the floor except to create biscuit soldiers. The other thing that remains is that Awakening is a special ability, the author makes it a point that anytime it's used it's noted by characters.  It wouldn't make sense that he'd just give it to Cracker as a side note.


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## OG sama (Dec 6, 2020)

I have been saying for a while now that YC2 are seemingly more offensively oriented than YC1 are.

The thing is, Smoothie has hardly any feats but if we take into consideration she can grow large in size and throw gigantic juice slashes at enemies while Queen is a big ass Brachiosaurus which should really be much physically stronger than a pterodactyl, and Jozu is a Diamond man which should make him more physically powerful than a Phoenix are strong evidences of this.

But YC1 fighters seem to be much more balanced fighters than YC2. Which is why many have Marco over Jozu and King over Queen etc.

Cracker and Jack are very pure defensive and endurance fighters, not great attack power.

So:
YC1- the most balanced fighters
YC2- More offensively oriented 
YC3-  Very defensively oriented


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## Strobacaxi (Dec 6, 2020)

OG sama said:


> I have been saying for a while now that YC2 are seemingly more offensively oriented than YC1 are.
> 
> The thing is, Smoothie has hardly any feats but if we take into consideration she can grow large in size and throw gigantic juice slashes at enemies while Queen is a big ass Brachiosaurus which should really be much physically stronger than a pterodactyl, and Jozu is a Diamond man which should make him more physically powerful than a Phoenix are strong evidences of this.
> 
> ...


Meh I wouldn't say WB crew fits here. Marco was extremely defense oriented, Vista not so much. Tbh, Jozu is mostly defensive too.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## OG sama (Dec 6, 2020)

Strobacaxi said:


> Meh I wouldn't say WB crew fits here. Marco was extremely defense oriented, Vista not so much. Tbh, Jozu is mostly defensive too.


Yeah I started to think of that after I posted... the WB pirates kinda throw this into the ground, I guess they could be the lone exception.

I don’t think Oda really was thinking this deep about the commanders and making differences like this.

All I can say is that they aren’t ridiculously stronger than each other but just noticeably stronger and different because of DFs.


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## VileNotice (Dec 6, 2020)

OG sama said:


> Yeah I started to think of that after I posted... the WB pirates kinda throw this into the ground, I guess they could be the lone exception.
> 
> I don’t think Oda really was thinking this deep about the commanders and making differences like this.
> 
> All I can say is that they aren’t ridiculously stronger than each other but just noticeably stronger and different because of DFs.


We also haven't seen King go all out, he could be way more offensive than Queen who is mostly focused around utility and debuffs thus far

Reactions: Agree 1


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