# Minato vs Itachi



## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Location: Minato vs A & B

Distance: 15m

Knowledge: Full

Mindset: IC

Restrictions/stipulations: Both are alive.


I'm back to pwn some scrubs Itachifans


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## Trojan (Jan 14, 2016)

Same argument like everytime. 

But, using itachi-fans logic

Itachi defeated a Sannin therefore he is stronger than any Sannin

Minato (and Tobirama (FTG user)) defeated a MS user, therefore he is stronger than any MS user.  


There.


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## Garcher (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato is too slow to fight Itachi


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

GARcher said:


> Minato is too fast to fight Itachi



I agree, it will be over before he's even warmed up


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## Kai (Jan 14, 2016)

Nice to see you again ImSerious. Makes sense you would open this can of worms the moment you return to the BD, as if we didn't have enough Minato in here already 

Anyways, you know the drill. Keep it constructive and civil, especially for this one. I'll be around. Have fun


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## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2016)

Edo minato >> Edo Itachi > Minato >= Living Itachi > sick Itachi


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

15m and full knowledge?

Minato gets in close and tags either him or his Susano, and that's that.


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Kai said:


> Nice to see you again ImSerious. Makes sense you would open this can of worms the moment you return to the BD, as if we didn't have enough Minato in here already
> 
> Anyways, you know the drill. Keep it constructive and civil, especially for this one. I'll be around. Have fun



I'm bored at work so i thought i'd check out narutoforums lol. You know me, i always keep it civil 

Times seem to have changed though, back in the day i would have been jumped by atleast 10 itachifans by now


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

Can go eitherway. But I still think Minato is at a disadvantage in a full knowledge scenario. Keeping the Hirashin marks away is easier than watching out for genjutsu through out the entire fight, especially considering the many ways Itachi can employ.

Minato might play the attrition game and win, but Itachi has lot of quick finishes under his belt, so I'm siding with him.


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can go eitherway. But I still think Minato is at a disadvantage in a full knowledge scenario. Keeping the Hirashin marks away is easier than watching out for genjutsu through out the entire fight, especially considering the many ways Itachi can employ.
> 
> Minato might play the attrition game and win, but Itachi has lot of quick finishes under his belt, so I'm siding with him.



Nah, with full knowledge Itachi's not gonna genjutsu anything, good luck making eye contact with a yellow flash. Minato just tosses a handfull of kunai's in Itachi's direction and sooner or later Itachi will get blindsided.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)

I've never seen this thread before.  **


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Nah, with full knowledge Itachi's not gonna genjutsu anything, good luck making eye contact with a yellow flash. Minato just tosses a handfull of kunai's in Itachi's direction and sooner or later Itachi will get blindsided.



Nah.
Itachi will deflect every single Kunai Minato throws with utmost ease. None of the shit is getting close proximity of Itachi. Like ever.

When it comes to the kunai game, Minato has a few things he needs to learn from the King.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)

This thread is impossible to discuss because Minato fans overwhelmingly think Minato is too fast for Itachi to even fight.

You are arguing who wins with people who think one of the participants can't even move.

And you can point out all the incidents where Minato's speed was intercepted, like when Killer B (about as fast as Itachi) slapped his brother out of the way when Minato tried to attack with Hiraishin, or when Sasuke (about as fast as Itachi) activated Susano'o to save Nardo from Juubito's attack before Minato could even use Hiraishin. But that's not consistent with the belief that Minato is too fast for Itachi to fight, so it just didn't happen.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato can't be at a disadvantage that's the thing people don't get 

Itachi can't use clones or he will get blitz once they are marked. 

Minato however is free to use clones which shits on itachi genjutsu 

The rest of his Arsenal isn't even worth mentioning hirashin deals with it way too easily


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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah.
> Itachi will deflect every single Kunai Minato throws with utmost ease. None of the shit is getting close proximity of Itachi. Like ever.




This is actually a solid argument for countering Hiraishin. Itachi should be able to deflect kunai that come close to him with his _Sharingan_ precognition and top-tier kenjutsu skills. However, if a kenjutsu exchange drags on, Itachi will tire more quickly than Minato.

This could go either way. There is a good chance that Itachi will run out of stamina before he can finish the job, because Minato's chakra reserves are clearly superior. At the same time, Itachi can potentially one-shot with Amaterasu. So there's that.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

What happens when minato opts to use clones ??

but yes itachi can certainly shit on minato kunai game 

No debate there


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## hbcaptain (Jan 14, 2016)

Wow , Itachi as skilled as Minato in Kunai manipulation , Itachi fans as always , because Itachi is better than one of the weakest Uchiha clan's leader , he is without doubt better than a legendry Hokage whom fighting style is essentially based on Kunais .


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

^ you haven't really said anything useful there 

Style based on kunai doesn't make minato better considering itachi has better weapon usage feats and uchiha are hyped as being experts in shiruken techniques


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## hbcaptain (Jan 14, 2016)

Itachi and Sasuke are Shuriken specialist , and Minato is Kunai specialist , if they are equaly skilled (Minato is no ordinary genius ) , then Minato is faster , V2 Ei coudln't see his Kunai , he launched Kunai at 70m , created Rasengan and teleported before Kakashi could perform human size Kamui , etc ,etc .


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Itachi and Sasuke are Shuriken specialist , and Minato is Kunai specialist , if they are equaly skilled (Minato is no ordinary genius ) , then Minato is faster , V2 Ei coudln't see his Kunai , he launched Kunai at 70m , created Rasengan and teleported before Kakashi could perform human size Kamui , etc ,etc .



itachi is also a kunai specialist. 

being able to throw a kunai faster doesn't make minato more skilled with it

considering while throwing kunai and sasuke looking at him, itachi could perform seals to create a clone

sasuke was looking straight at him

unlike A whose field of vision might have been tunnelled due to the speed he was moving at


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## hbcaptain (Jan 14, 2016)

Well , Itachi already showed his limits against Bee , even after Genjutsu distraction Bee was able to block his Shurikens handly .

And yes , Minato is incredibly skilled in Kunai manipulation , his rank A Taijutsu are based on Kunais , FTG level2 and RSCK are high level skills in Kunaijutsu .


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah.
> Itachi will deflect every single Kunai Minato throws with utmost ease. None of the shit is getting close proximity of Itachi. Like ever.
> 
> When it comes to the kunai game, Minato has a few things he needs to learn from the King.



Yeah Itachi can stop Minato's kunai from coming near him with his own shuriken, but then what? The place is now littered with tags for Minato to warp to. It's only gonna go downhill for Itachi from there as the battlefield becomes a minefield.



Nikushimi said:


> This thread is impossible to discuss because Minato fans overwhelmingly think Minato is too fast for Itachi to even fight.
> 
> You are arguing who wins with people who think one of the participants can't even move.
> 
> And you can point out all the incidents where Minato's speed was intercepted, like when Killer B (about as fast as Itachi) slapped his brother out of the way when Minato tried to attack with Hiraishin, or when Sasuke (about as fast as Itachi) activated Susano'o to save Nardo from Juubito's attack before Minato could even use Hiraishin. But that's not consistent with the belief that Minato is too fast for Itachi to fight, so it just didn't happen.



He can move, just not for very long 

Except Bee was not Minato's target, he was playing spectator and his tentacle was moving towards A before Minato even began his attack, unless you think Bee's tentacle can cover 15m faster than Minato can make a stabbing motion.

I don't remember the Sasuke thing as it's been a while since i've looked at anything naruto-related, but i'm sure there's a logical explanation for that aswell.


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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Yeah Itachi can stop Minato's kunai from coming near him with his own shuriken, but then what? The place is now littered with tags for Minato to warp to. It's only gonna go downhill for Itachi from there as the battlefield becomes a minefield.




He means that Itachi can redirect the path of the kunai. and prevent Minato from zoning the battlefield. Itachi doesn't have to be near Minato to hit him; he can fight from a distance with long range ninjutsu like Amaterasu.




hbcaptain said:


> Well , Itachi already showed his limits against Bee , even after Genjutsu distraction *Bee was able to block his Shurikens handly *.
> 
> And yes , Minato is incredibly skilled in Kunai manipulation , his rank A Taijutsu are based on Kunais , FTG level2 and RSCK are high level skills in Kunaijutsu .




Not sure why you even mentioned B. Let's see Minato try to block Itachi's shuriken and see what happens.


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## RBL (Jan 14, 2016)

without kcm minato is not doing shit to Itachi


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> He means that Itachi can redirect the path of the kunai. and prevent Minato from zoning the battlefield. Itachi doesn't have to be near Minato to hit him; he can fight from a distance with long range ninjutsu like Amaterasu.



So? The kunai are still gonna be all over the place. Amaterasu is not hitting Minato, the only thing it's gonna do is tire Itachi more quickly.

And what's stopping Minato from getting closer to Itachi?


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

The problem with "Itachi Argument #11: Itachi's Deflects All Kunai" is that he doesn't have a Byakugan. I hear Minato can teleport pretty quickly, so he can throw Kunai from what will appear to be every direction at once as long as he spreads out his tags before he begins the attack.


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The problem with "Itachi Argument #11: Itachi's Deflects All Kunai" is that he doesn't have a Byakugan. I hear Minato can teleport pretty quickly, so he can throw Kunai from what will appear to be every direction at once as long as he spreads out his tags before he begins the attack.



Itachi perfectly threw back Kunai to kill two of Naruto's ambush clones without looking back at them.

He curved his kunai to hit Pein's blind spots.

In hi famous kunai feat (in the manga), he isn't even using his eyes for most of it until he has already landed...

Being able to catch and throw shuriken out of the air, and block all of Sasuke's summoned shuriken, and deflecting the unpredicatable pattern of Bee's dance with a kunai are terrific dexterity feats for Itachi regarding Kunai as well.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Yeah Itachi can stop Minato's kunai from coming near him with his own shuriken, but then what? The place is now littered with tags for Minato to warp to. It's only gonna go downhill for Itachi from there as the battlefield becomes a minefield.



Easy. Itachi doesn't bumrush into the minefield of kunai like A, coz you know, his IQ higher than A's weight in pounds.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , Itachi already showed his limits against Bee , even after Genjutsu distraction Bee was able to block his Shurikens handly .
> 
> And yes , Minato is incredibly skilled in Kunai manipulation , his rank A Taijutsu are based on Kunais , FTG level2 and RSCK are high level skills in Kunaijutsu .



yes bee blocked it, are you implying he couldn't do the same to minato kunai?

I never said minato wasn't though. 

FTG level 2 is A rank based on hirashin and rasengan, not because of his skill with kunai. 

as well as RSCK, whatever that means

the concept that makes it dangerous is hirashin, not minato skill at throwing the kunai 

which is good, never said it wasn't

however nothing minato showed indicates that itachi cant deflect his kunai. 

though deflecting them doesn't really help itachi much.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Easy. Itachi doesn't bumrush into the minefield of kunai like A, coz you know, his IQ higher than A's weight in pounds.



agreed. 

but with a field littered in kunai

itachi has lost the ability to genjutsu him, as he needs to be able to track him to genjutsu him

lost the ability to amaterasu him 

so yes itachi would never rush at minato when there are kunai everywhere, but its not like he has many options

we know if its just avoiding a technique, hirashin allows minato to easily do that. we got hirashin allowing escape and surprise attacks on people like juubito

so itachi jutsu will simply be too slow to land a hit. regardless of if itachi rushes in or not


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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

Itachi can also ignite the kunai with Amaterasu. It wouldn't be outside of Itachi's ability to strategically deflect Minato's kunai in a manner that he can set most or all of them on the ground ablaze with Amaterasu. Although I doubt Itachi would be able to burn all of the kunai before Minato could respond, and I wouldn't put it past Minato to have an equally clever response, like keeping a few kunai in reserve (making Itachi think he was out of completely out of kunai and forcing Itachi to waste some of his chakra).


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi perfectly threw back Kunai to kill two of Naruto's ambush clones without looking back at them.
> 
> He curved his kunai to hit Pein's blind spots.
> 
> ...




Taking out two flanking base Naruto clones and hitting stationary targets is not comparable to deflecting Kunai from every direction without even letting a single one get close.

And by the way...



Dr. White said:


> In hi famous kunai feat (in the manga), he isn't even using his eyes for most of it until he has already landed.



Prove it. You can't see his eyes while he's throwing the Kunai, and when he lands his Sharingan is activated.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Itachi can also ignite the kunai with Amaterasu. It wouldn't be outside of Itachi's ability to strategically deflect Minato's kunai in a manner that he can set most or all of them on the ground ablaze with Amaterasu. Although I doubt Itachi would be able to burn all of the kunai before Minato could respond, and I wouldn't put it past Minato to have an equally clever response, like keeping a few kunai in reserve (making Itachi think he was out of completely out of kunai and forcing Itachi to waste some of his chakra).



burning kunai with amaterasu would be foolish as he will be spending a lot of chakra to beat kunai. 

anyone should get why that would be wasteful

even if minato threw all his kunai

its no different from using amaterasu on a clone. that's very wasteful to itachi, yet hardly affects minato


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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

*@Matty*: Susano'o is bad idea, because it drains Itachi's stamina, and Minato can just shunshin/Hiraishin around while it is active.




Icegaze said:


> burning kunai with amaterasu would be foolish as he will be spending a lot of chakra to beat kunai.
> 
> anyone should get why that would be wasteful
> 
> ...




It would restrict Minato's mobility, so it would be a good use of chakra. Itachi was able to set a good portion of a forest ablaze with Amaterasu, and burning the ground shouldn't take _that_ much chakra.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

so he uses that and minato throws more kunai. who do u think would run out of steam first?

or he does that and minato uses clones or even a clone. who oddly enough is created with a weapon pouch as well as they are replica of the original. now that clone throws weapons

do u still think its a good use of itachi chakra then?

using MS drains itachi. that much is clearly shown in the manga. its certainly more draining than minato throwing another set of kunai


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> agreed.
> 
> but with a field littered in kunai
> 
> ...



Itachi can set that field on fire with Amaterasu, and its doubtful if Minato can retrieve those Kunai.
Losing some of his kunai greatly diminshes his effectiveness in the field.

If Minato doesn't do anything and stays purely on the defensive, then he can't do anything to Itachi either.

The option of genjutsu is always open.


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

So Itachi burns the kunai  with Ama wasting a shitload of chakra, and Minato then just scatters a couple more. This is not really an argument that convinces me that Itachi will win this battle.

Not to mention the recoil from Amaterasu, which is very dangerous against Minato as it gives him an opening to strike.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Easy. Itachi doesn't bumrush into the minefield of kunai like A, coz you know, his IQ higher than A's weight in pounds.



It doesn't matter, the point is that Minato's Hiraishin range increases with every kunai that is thrown. He can have his clones run around scattering them from multiple points aswell, or have them tag some trees.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi can set that field on fire with Amaterasu, and its doubtful if Minato can retrieve those Kunai.
> Losing some of his kunai greatly diminshes his effectiveness in the field.
> 
> If Minato doesn't do anything and stays purely on the defensive, then he can't do anything to Itachi either.
> ...



yes he could.  but then we have him depleting his low chakra levels on kunai. and getting even more blind....hardly smart

if kunai are set ablaze minato uses clones, those clones also are created with their ninja pouch cutely enough. and they can throw kunai...

itachi is the one with less stamina here, both can play that game and itachi looses out that way 

genjutsu can only be an option if itachi can track minato movements, which would be unlikely once clones come into play if kunai are defeated by amaterasu 

we saw how 5 madara clones couldn't genjutsu A, who is a lot slower than minato jumping around with hirashin

so itachi tracking minato bouncing about with hirashin is unlikely. 

worse because 1 minato clone ruins it for itachi, genjutsu does not work on clones. who does itachi choose to genjutsu in that situation? who is he keeping his eyes on

?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> yes he could.  but then we have him depleting his low chakra levels on kunai. and getting even more blind....hardly smart
> 
> if kunai are set ablaze minato uses clones, those clones also are created with their ninja pouch cutely enough. and they can throw kunai...
> 
> ...



Clones are copy of the original.

If Minato uses a clone after Itachi sets his kunai on fire, then those clones also won't have those kunai.

Actually taking out Minato's kunai is the smartest thing you can do, because those kunai are his bread and butter and nearly all his mobility. A single Amaterasu doesn't deplete Itachi's chakra levels that much, and it is a worthy trade. 

I don't understand what you are suggesting, that Minato non stop jumps from one hirashin mark to another without stopping once ? But what does that accomplish other than meaninglessly depleting his stamina ? 

Also this is not Edo KCM Minato, he is not going to spam clones left and right. 
And if Itachi sees more than 1 Minato on the battlefield, then he probably won't attempt to use genjutsu unless he is sure its the original.



ImSerious said:


> It doesn't matter, the point is that Minato's Hiraishin range increases with every kunai that is thrown. He can have his clones run around scattering them from multiple points aswell, or have them tag some trees.



And nothing forces Itachi to go inside Minato's kunai field. He doesn't have to play Minato's game. He can deflect the Kunai or ust back off, and move the battlefield else where and watch Minato go and pick those kunai up one by one.


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> > Taking out two flanking base Naruto clones and hitting stationary targets is not comparable to deflecting Kunai from every direction without even letting a single one get close.
> 
> 
> Uhm, you claimed he didn't have byakugan. My scan was to show him lol thrwarting a blindside ambush with perfect kunai aim.
> ...


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato is not running out of kunai, he can likely summon more just like how Sasuke was summoning more during his fight with Itachi.


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And nothing forces Itachi to go inside Minato's kunai field. He doesn't have to play Minato's game. He can deflect the Kunai or ust back off, and move the battlefield else where and watch Minato go and pick those kunai up one by one.



So Itachi is just gonna run away is what your saying


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

Sasuke used a specific jutsu for that. Minato isn't listed as the user of that jutsu. And even then, Sasuke ran out of shurikens during that fight.

Minato will run out of Kunai.



ImSerious said:


> So Itachi is just gonna run away is what your saying



Can't beat Art of Run baby


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## Dr. White (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Minato is not running out of kunai, he can likely summon more just like how Sasuke was summoning more during his fight with Itachi.



Unless he's shown with it, he doesn't have it. Otherwise everybody can just theoretically carry shuriken/kunai summoning shit.


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Yes, i assume anyone who isn't genin level can summon shuriken/kunai 

In this case a hokage who's fighting style revolves around kunai 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Can't beat Art of Run baby



And while Itachi's ran off Minato can create a clone which Itachi won't know of, making it even easier to get some tags where Itachi won't see em coming.

The yellow flash always catches you


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato can't be at a disadvantage that's the thing people don't get
> 
> Itachi can't use clones or he will get blitz once they are marked.



 That won't work. Itachi can feint and swap clones faster than the Sharingan or a Perfect Sage can perceive, so if Minato does attempt to mark a clone with the belief that that was Itachi, he gets feinted and forces Minato in a vulnerable position.

 If you're referring to Itachi using multiple clones and them getting blitzed, well, Itachi doesn't do that and it would be a waste for him to do so. He merely employs feints at the right time through reading his opponent's intentions.



> Minato however is free to use clones which shits on itachi genjutsu



 Itachi's Genjutsu is much faster than Minato's and his Sharingan enables him to differentiate the original through his clones as he can preempt Minato's movements. 



> The rest of his Arsenal isn't even worth mentioning hirashin deals with it way too easily



 Hiraishin can't counter Itachi's Shurikeninjutsu, fast ninjutsu execution, nor the Mangekyo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Yes, i assume anyone who isn't genin level can summon shuriken/kunai
> 
> In this case a hokage who's fighting style revolves around kunai



If he could summon unlimited amount of kunai, why the hell would he carry a backpack to carry dozens of Kunai ? 



> And while Itachi's ran off Minato can create a clone which Itachi won't know of, making it even easier to get some tags where Itachi won't see em coming.
> 
> The yellow flash always catches you



Itachi summons crows and makes them grab and take the kunai away.


and Itachi can summon a shit ton of crows bro. "its not a corpse, he is the real thing. So his strength and movements are completely different."

FUUUUCK. Itachi hard counters Hirashin


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If he could summon unlimited amount of kunai, why the hell would he carry a backpack to carry dozens of Kunai ?



Because it would be impractical to summon a kunai everytime you need it. Plus it maybe costs a small amount of chakra.



> Itachi summons crows and makes them grab and take the kunai away.
> 
> 
> and Itachi can summon a shit ton of crows bro. "its not a corpse, he is the real thing. So his strength and movements are completely different."
> ...



Those crows get bamflashed the instant they get near any kunai


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

> UchihaX28 said:
> 
> 
> > That won't work. Itachi can feint and swap clones faster than the Sharingan or a Perfect Sage can perceive, so if Minato does attempt to mark a clone with the belief that that was Itachi, he gets feinted and forces Minato in a vulnerable position.
> ...


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## fyhb (Jan 14, 2016)

This is one of those matchups where anything can happen
 Some say hiraishin gg, some say genjutsu gg.

Above all this is a finesse-based fight. Both have power abilities, both are fast in base, both are intelligent.

So who wins? Itachi - he has a more varied arsenal and the sharingan helps to counter kunai and bursts of speed. His trumps are easier to fall into or against. On the flip, speed doesn't do jack shit against Itachi's genjutsu except make eye contact harder as an indirect result, but since clones can cast genjutsu the speed element is essentially hard countered. Besides that, Minato has virtually nothing going in his favor. I guess stamina is his only hope, and that can be adapted to as well.

Once you eliminate the absurd notion that Itachi would be blitzed before reacting, the matchup is pretty straightforward.

Ultimately we are arguing who would win more often, not who would win one match. You know who my money is on.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> that would matter! if only minato wasn't capable of hirashin swap quicker than a juubi jin wit rinnengan and MS could perceive and react to.



 Hiraishin is instantaneous. Of course he couldn't perceive it.

 I find it hilarious though that you're using KCM Minato's feats and also using the Hiraishin swap technique as evidence that he can beat Itachi when that was a coordinated plan with Tobirama and required Tobirama to even do it in the first place. 

 If Minato attempts to do it with a clone, Itachi detects Minato placing a marking on his clone, Itachi reads Minato's intentions, and reacts accordingly. Even then, Minato's clone is less reactive than Minato who's much less reactive than Tobirama, so the mental response to use Hiraishin is going to be even longer and so it won't be effective overall.

 I still question what the Hiraishin Swap enables Minato to do. It's merely just going to get his clone killed if Minato swaps places with his clone as Itachi's about to attack.



> marking a clone marks the real itachi in the process. chakra link
> 
> otherwise feel free to explain how minato used hirashin to get EMS sasuke out of juubito reach. he never marked sasuke, or naruto


 
 Marking a clone only means that Minato can only warp to the clone. Minato has to mark a location or object to be able to warp to it. Merely tagging his clone doesn't imply he can simply warp to Itachi.

 The rest is irrelevant because Minato warped to a location that he marked previously.




> I wasn't. 1 clone from itachi is enough for itachi to loose the match. since that clone may get tagged



 And Itachi's not going to use that clone for a long period of time. He's going to sacrifice it for a feint to get the upperhand. 




> true considering minato doesn't use genjutsu.  sharingan cannot tell the original from the clone you are making shit up!!! only MADARA EMS could do that.



 I never stated that. The Sharingan enhances his perception and enables him to preempt Minato's movements, so Minato can't hide or perform a feint with the clones b/c his Sharingan enables him to identify the original Minato's location at all times.



> sure thing buddy
> 
> you must mean like how A with mere shunshin speed alone, needed to be distracted for 5 clones of madara to successfully genjutsu him
> 
> sure



 Minato's not as fast as Ei, nor is he fast enough to consistently avoid eye contact with Itachi. Not that it matters because Itachi has multiple methods to employ his Genjutsu as shown when Naruto had complete knowledge on Itachi's Genjutsu and took necessary precautions to avoid it, but he was still caught.

 Since you like statements so much, mind providing me a statement implying that Minato can counter Sharingan Genjutsu?


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28, stop denying what the manga has shown us.

Mianto warped thousands of ninja that had Naruto's chakra in their pathway network by touching Naruto's fist. 

Minato warped Sasuke who had Naruto's chakra arm touching him, and Naruto, because Naruto's chakra arm was touching Minato. 

Warping to/a original by touching their chakra (clone) is no different.


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## fyhb (Jan 14, 2016)

Hiraishin teleportation is "instant" but the activation is not. KB predicted it, and Itachi is a good deal more savvy than KB.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> UchihaX28, stop denying what the manga has shown us.
> 
> Mianto warped thousands of ninja that had Naruto's chakra in their pathway network by touching Naruto's fist.
> 
> Warping to/a original through their chakra (clone) is no different.



 He warped the entire alliance to a location previously marked. That's different than tagging a clone, and then claiming that he can warp to the original even though he's not marked. 

 Though yes, Minato does have multiple things he can do with it such as warping Itachi to any marked location provided that Itachi still uses his clone. The problem is, most perceptive ninja could not perceive Itachi's feints or clone swaps and Itachi doesn't use his clone for an extended period of time. Once Itachi is warped out of nowhere, Itachi will realize what's going on and simply dispel his clone.


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## fyhb (Jan 14, 2016)

Clones aren't linked like that. It's like saying if you genjutsu a clone the original gets mindraped.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

> UchihaX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Hiraishin is instantaneous. Of course he couldn't perceive it.
> ...


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He warped the entire alliance to a location previously marked. That's different than tagging a clone, and then claiming that he can warp to the original even though he's not marked.
> 
> Though yes, Minato does have multiple things he can do with it such as warping Itachi to any marked location provided that Itachi still uses his clone. The problem is, most perceptive ninja could not perceive Itachi's feints or clone swaps and Itachi doesn't use his clone for an extended period of time. Once Itachi is warped out of nowhere, Itachi will realize what's going on and simply dispel his clone.


What the hell are you talking about?

If he marks or touches Itachi's chakra for even a split second (clone), the connection is made between his physical body and Itachi's chakra, no marker is required, therefore he can warp directly to the other split chakra (original Itachi), warp the original to him, or warp the original to a nearby kunai, and warp there himself at the same time to slam a Rasengan in his skull before he reacts.

He doesn't need a marker to warp to someone when he's touching their split chakra, he's literally creating the temporary connection himself through his physical hand and doesn't require a seal imbued from his chakra (the FTG marker) to immortalize the connection if he capitalizes on it prior to the physical connection (hand touching chakra) being severed. 

So what he's doing, when he touches or marks a clone, is making Itachi, and any of his other outer chakra, a warp-to and warp-back-to-Minato-or-any-of-Minato's-marked-or-outer-chakra-points marker. Think of Itachi, and any of his split chakra (Katon, Susano, other Bunshin), as a literal FTG marker for Minato once the connection with his clone is made by Minato's physical body or chakra, and he can do with him anything he could do with a kunai that is marked, which is the ability to warp to the kunai or warp the kunai back to him. 

Whatever way you want it it results in Itachi's death.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

@Uchiha X28

1) huge ass AoE

either I or my chakra. notice the lack of marks on both sasuke and Naruto

he didn't say my kyuubi enhanced chakra, just my chakra. 

2) tobirama statement on clones, chakra being linked to the original 
huge ass AoE

hope that helps you. thanks mate, 

tobirama trolled most of your argument. in 1 panel

please read what he says in that scan. Itachi chakra is linked to his clones, if his clone gets marked. Minato links himself to the original as well

As to the kunai. erm yes that the kunai minato had outside the battlefield, they needed to appear somewhere after porting away from the BD

he needs a mark or his chakra in contact with something to teleport to it, or teleport it


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

@Davizwiz

ive provided the panel. if he doesn't get that, there is no hope for him


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## Matty (Jan 14, 2016)

Ahem... Koto GG


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> yet itachi can?



 Juubito wasn't focused on Minato nor Tobirama, hence why he never predicted it in the first place. Itachi unfortunately, is focused on Minato entirely and can preempt his movements, so he can perceive where Minato's going to warp through his tags, so for the most part, all he has to do is react to his physical speed which isn't going to overwhelm Itachi.





> are you implying that technique cant be used with a clone? because tobirama explains why he opted to do it that way. Juubito is too fuckign fast for them. Itachi clearly isn't



 No I didn't, I simply stated that it would be less effective because clones are less reactive in terms of using HIraishin.





> how would itachi detect minato marking his clone? you mean itachi can tell when minato marks a MINATO clone or when minato marks itachis clone?



 I don't know. By actually watching them do it? 



> 1)  minato does not need to mark his clone, his clone can mark itself.



 Which wouldn't be any different from them marking each other.



> 2) the clone shares minato chakra, therefore a mark is not even needed in the first place, to hirasin swap with a clone. though if its needed, the clone is capable of marking itself to begin with



 All right. Let me just give you an example as to why I don't think that would work.

 Let's say that Minato (original) is the * only * one that is marked. If Minato attempts to warp and swap places with his clone, then only the clone will warp to the original's position because the original is marked. The clone itself isn't marked, so the original wouldn't be able to warp to his location, so under this circumstance, the clone would warp to the original, but the original will remain in the exact same location.



> 3) how the fuck does itachi detect that. minato marking carries minato chakra, so itachi tells that how exactly, not like the mark has a different chakra signature.



 Because marking requires physically making contact with something which Itachi can perceive in this case. And again, how is swapping with a clone going to help Minato here?



> the same thing clone feinting allows itachi to do, but requiring less timing and movement on minato part.



 Actually, the only way it would effective is if the original is outside of his LOS and I admit, that would be effective, but then, how would Minato be able to strike Itachi without giving away his presence? Itachi's rather skilled in detecting objects within his blindspot, so I find it hard to believe that Minato would somehow come out of nowhere and blitz him.



> , so minato marked the entire alliance? oh wow..he really quick
> 
> anything touching minato chakra can be hirashin to.
> 
> clones chakra is linked to the original. DO YOU NEED scans? please ask I will provide, but don't argue blindly against facts



 That didn't require any physical movement.

 Right, but he could only warp them outside due to their being a Kunai outside of the barrier. He never did anything like what you're suggesting unless you think Minato can warp a Juubidama back at the Juubi.




> yes, with the entire alliance he didn't mark. only had a chakra link to them through Naruto who shared his chakra



 Wait, what? The marking only indicates where he's going to warp the alliance, but having their chakra linked to his only determined if he could warp them or not. 




> hirashin swap. itachi cant perceive it, if juubito couldnt



 Juubito wasn't focused on them, so he couldn't preempt it.




> you are right he is faster
> 
> A: "i am now the fastest since minato is dead"
> 
> yh sure Ei is faster.... arguing with the manga



 Only with Hiraishin.



> cant fucking believe you have kishi stating in DB and manga minato speed> EI speed yet you can write what I just quoted.



 Actually, Kishi stated that Minato's actual speed was on par with Base Raikage's.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Ahem... Koto GG



 Well, then Itachi solo neg-diffs even harder.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> What the hell are you talking about?
> 
> If he marks or touches Itachi's chakra for even a split second (clone), the connection is made between his physical body and Itachi's chakra, no marker is required, therefore he can warp directly to the other split chakra (original Itachi), warp the original to him, or warp the original to a nearby kunai, and warp there himself at the same time to slam a Rasengan in his skull before he reacts.



 No, the marker itself determines the location of where Minato's going to warp. Him tagging Itachi's clone does mean that he's connected to the original, but that only means that he can warp the original to any marked location, not that he can suddenly blindside the original when he hasn't marked Itachi yet.

 Please show me an example in the manga where Minato has warped to an unmarked location.

 I'm not going to address the rest as I do want to bring up an important point. 

huge ass AoE

 Explain to me why Minato had to incorporate his own marking onto Kushina's seal instead of applying his own chakra onto Kushina's seal instead? Even then, Obito's explanation of the technique describes it as instantly travelling from one marking to the next meaning he has to mark an object in order to travel to it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Because it would be impractical to summon a kunai everytime you need it. Plus it maybe costs a small amount of chakra.


I'd say it is more practical than carrying a backpack around. It also allows him to throw them faster since they basicaly spawn into his hand.

Eitherway we have never seen Minato do it, so there is no need to assume can.



> Those crows get bamflashed the instant they get near any kunai



And suddenly : huge ass AoE


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 14, 2016)

As usual Minato dances around him with Hiraishin until he can't maintain Susanoo, then he gets Hiraishin blitzed. Or if warping Susanoo (or warping the user out) is possible Minato just does that and kills Itachi in a matter of minutes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

> UchihaX28 said:
> 
> 
> > Juubito wasn't focused on Minato nor Tobirama, hence why he never predicted it in the first place. Itachi unfortunately, is focused on Minato entirely and can preempt his movements, so he can perceive where Minato's going to warp through his tags, so for the most part, all he has to do is react to his physical speed which isn't going to overwhelm Itachi.
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No, the marker itself determines the location of where Minato's going to warp. Him tagging Itachi's clone does mean that he's connected to the original, but that only means that he can warp the original to any marked location, not that he can suddenly blindside the original when he hasn't marked Itachi yet.
> 
> Please show me an example in the manga where Minato has warped to an unmarked location.
> 
> ...



huge ass AoE

read chapter 644. 

then explain why minato could hirashin EMS sasuke without ever touching EMS sasuke.


ps: minato seals his chakra via the hirashin marking as its a seal that doesn't disappear. HOWEVER a basic chakra link. i.e chakra touching chakra can disappear. 

i.e KCM Naruto touching minato and then touching something else means minato can hirashin to the location KCM Naruto is touching

however if KCM Naruto lets go of minato, that's no longer possible 

I swear this is basic primary school stuff

in the same sense if itachi creates clones and one is marked, therefore creating a chakra link to the original. that link disappears if the clone is no longer on the battlefield as the original itachi does not have minato chakra sealed within a mark and therefore something original itachi cant get rid of


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> And suddenly : huge ass AoE



 Like Father like Son. Since Naruto was trapped in an illusion immediately, he does the same to Minato.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> huge ass AoE
> 
> read chapter 644.
> 
> then explain why minato could hirashin EMS sasuke without ever touching EMS sasuke.



 Because, EMS Sasuke was connected to KCM Naruto who was linked to KCM Minato which determined whether Minato could warp them or not, but his marking indicated where Minato could warp them, hence why it's shown that Minato warped him to where Minato had placed a Kunai previously:

huge ass AoE

 Now provide me an example where Minato warps someone to an unmarked location and I'll concede.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Because, EMS Sasuke was connected to KCM Naruto who was linked to KCM Minato which determined whether Minato could warp them or not, but his marking indicated where Minato could warp them, hence why it's shown that Minato warped him to where Minato had placed a Kunai previously:
> 
> huge ass AoE
> 
> Now provide me an example where Minato warps someone to an unmarked location and I'll concede.



oh I finally get you. gosh took time. 

however do u agree that minato could wrap to EMS sasuke if he wanted vs wraping EMS sasuke out of harms way, through the chakra link naruto provided

do you also get the part about clones sharing chakra, and the last post I just posted

chakra touching chakra allows for hirashin so long as the chakra stay in contact. or he is physically touching that thing


the seal allows minato to be million miles a way from what or who he wants to wrap to and still get there

however minato does not need to mark someone to get to them, otherwise he wont have replied to Naruto saying

I can hirashin anyone who I, or my chakra are in contact with. vs I cant hirahsin him since I haven't marked him


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## ImSerious (Jan 14, 2016)

Foiled said:


> Hiraishin teleportation is "instant" but the activation is not. KB predicted it, and Itachi is a good deal more savvy than KB.



Predicting =/= being able to react.
You can also predict it yet not know when it's gonna happen.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say it is more practical than carrying a backpack around. It also allows him to throw them faster since they basicaly spawn into his hand.



It would be more practical in a situation like the shuriken battle between Sasuke and Itachi where they threw them one by one at high speeds, but Minato likes to scatter a couple dozen of em in 1 swing.



> Eitherway we have never seen Minato do it, so there is no need to assume can.



We've never seen Minato walk on water, i guess he can't do that either, because logic 



> And suddenly : huge ass AoE



Full knowledge breh. 
Not that the crow can cast a genjutsu when he's got his head sliced off anyway.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> oh I finally get you. gosh took time.



 You're good, I kind've expected that it would take a while because I didn't know how to explain it.



> I never implied minato could wrap to an unmarked location
> 
> however do u agree that minato could wrap to EMS sasuke if he wanted vs wraping EMS sasuke out of harms way, through the chakra link naruto provided



 No, I don't because EMS Sasuke isn't marked. What his link with EMS Sasuke implies that he can simply warp him to anywhere that is marked. If EMS Sasuke was marked, then yes, he can warp to him, but that would mean that being linked to his chakra wouldn't be necessary in the first place as the seal allows him to warp to him anyways.



> do you also get the part about clones sharing chakra, and the last post I just posted
> 
> chakra touching chakra allows for hirashin so long as the chakra stay in contact. or he is physically touching that thing



 Yes, it enables him to warp them, but how they're going to be warped is dependent on if a certain location/ object is marked or not. 



> *please note minato clone has used hirashin to bring the original to the clone location. why was that possible? the clone and original share chakra they have a chakra link *



 I need a scan of this then.



> the seal allows minato to be million miles a way from what or who he wants to wrap to and still get there
> 
> however minato does not need to mark someone to get to them, otherwise he wont have replied to Naruto saying
> 
> I can hirashin anyone who I, or my chakra are in contact with. vs I cant hirahsin him since I haven't marked him



 Okay, now this is the difficult part to explain.

 It was stated that Minato could warp them due to his Chakra Link and so yes, even when he's not touching them, he can warp them. However, he can't warp to them because they're not marked. What the Chakra link implies is that he can warp them, but only to a location that he's marked. If that person isn't marked, but is linked to his chakra, then that only means he can warp them to a marked location.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

> UchihaX28 said:
> 
> 
> > You're good, I kind've expected that it would take a while because I didn't know how to explain it.
> ...


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

@Dr. White

I said Itachi doesn't have a Byakugan because sight is his best sense. Naruto isn't particularly skilled in assassination, so Itachi probably heard him coming. I hope you can recognize the difference between that and accurately detecting a barrage of Kunai coming from every which way so well that he can deflect them without any getting near him. If they come from his blind spot, he'd probably sense them well enough to dodge them at the last second, but then they're near him, so he loses to Minato's second step.

This is why I don't think "herpa derp Itachi deflects all da Kunaiz" is going to work. Minato is aware that he can't just overtly throw them at Itachi. Thus, he'll come up with a plan so that Itachi can't just casually deflect them, and teleportation is quite a useful tool for him to use to come up with something. Of course Itachi is free to defend with Susanoo, or summon crows as a distraction and run the fuck away from all of the markers Minato spread out...but that's why I think this is a good fight.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

@Davizwiz UchihaX28 has a solid point

1) chakra link means minato can wrap said person to a *marked location* however *cannot hirashin to that person*

2) a minato clone is a chakra link to minato. therefore he should be able to wrap to it, without marking however this has not been shown. (So more likely he can wrap his clone to a marked location, or his clone can wrap him to a marked location)

3) for minato to hirashin swap with his clone, the clone must mark minato and minato must mark the clone

4) if itachi clone is marked, is there a chakra link to the original itachi. Meaning minato can wrap that itachi to a marked location but not wrap to itachi directly as he isn't marked 

I think that covers the points on hirashin as far as this battle is concerned

5) The first 4 points leave me confused as after FCD on kyuubi. Minato crossed from the hokage mountain well inside the village to the outskirts of the village. So was that shunshin? and If so then why the fuck do people make it out like his shunshin speed is slow

*and if that was hirashin, then that one feat counters the first 4 points I made *

@sadgoob pitch in on this post. Need a non minato fan POV


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I am sorry for my tone. please see below my explanation. I think you have pointed out something that I misunderstood
> 
> I need to apologize to you for my tone as I believe you have a point.
> 
> ...



 Yes! That's exactly what I've been getting at. 



> because that's what happened with the alliance which as you have pointed out where wrapped to a marked location, thanks to chakra sharing. without minato needing to touch them. which is agan what clones are, shared chakra of the original and we know the chakra seal (hirashin mark) is minato sealing his chakra within in this case an itachi clone perhaps.



  Yep, sounds about right.


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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

> @Davizwiz UchihaX28 has a solid point
> 
> 1) chakra link means minato can wrap said person to a marked location however cannot hirashin to that person
> 
> ...




Minato can still just warp to same place of the original if he warps them both to the same spot.



> 5) The first 4 points leave me confused as after FCD on kyuubi. Minato crossed from the hokage mountain well inside the village to the outskirts of the village. So was that shunshin? and If so then why the fuck do people make it out like his shunshin speed is slow
> 
> and if that was hirashin, then that one feat counters the first 4 points I made




People have debated on whether or not it was _Shunshin_ in the past. I think it was probably _Shunshin_. I mean, Minato's not just fast because of _Hiraishin_. People like to minimize all of his feats though because he's a threat to their favorite character.


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## ki0 (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> @Dr. White
> 
> I said Itachi doesn't have a Byakugan because sight is his best sense. Naruto isn't particularly skilled in assassination, so Itachi probably heard him coming. I hope you can recognize the difference between that and accurately detecting a barrage of Kunai coming from every which way so well that he can deflect them without any getting near him. If they come from his blind spot, he'd probably sense them well enough to dodge them at the last second, but then they're near him, so he loses to Minato's second step.
> 
> This is why I don't think "herpa derp Itachi deflects all da Kunaiz" is going to work. Minato is aware that he can't just overtly throw them at Itachi. Thus, he'll come up with a plan so that Itachi can't just casually deflect them, and teleportation is quite a useful tool for him to use to come up with something. Of course Itachi is free to defend with Susanoo, or summon crows as a distraction and run the fuck away from all of the markers Minato spread out...but that's why I think this is a good fight.



After using the crows as a distraction to run away, Itachi can pick Minato apart from the shadows.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Yes! That's exactly what I've been getting at.
> 
> 
> 
> Yep, sounds about right.



great stuff mate

but that means if itachi clone is marked, he could teleport the real itachi right infront of him, if he Is holding a kunai. So It really ends up as if minato just appeared in front of itachi, just in this case itachi has been moved without knowing. Rather he will know but don't think he will have enough time to react, if he didn't even see the enemy or himself moving only to find out minato is right in front of him

do you get that as well?



replica of what rinnegan sasuke did to juudara basically.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Minato can still just warp to same place of the original if he warps them both to the same spot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



he can only wrap to the same place as the original if the original is marked

if its just through chakra link via marking an itachi clone that wont be possible

I think it was shunshin tbh. otherwise, gotta show me where bunta is marked


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> great stuff mate
> 
> but that means if itachi clone is marked, he could teleport the real itachi right infront of him, if he Is holding a kunai. So It really ends up as if minato just appeared in front of itachi, just in this case itachi has been moved without knowing. Rather he will know but don't think he will have enough time to react, if he didn't even see the enemy or himself moving only to find out minato is right in front of him
> 
> do you get that as well?



 I get that as well, but warping him to a marked location practically gives it away since Minato would need Hiraishin to reach Itachi if he wants to blindside him.


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I get that as well, but warping him to a marked location practically gives it away since Minato would need Hiraishin to reach Itachi if he wants to blindside him.



how would it. if minato is holding a kunai, he can wrap itachi to be right in front of it. since the kunai is a marked location, and if minato is holding it. 

its hardly a give away, itachi would instantly appear in front of minato who has already prepared his attack 

literarily a repeat of rinnegan sasuke attack on juudara, 

ref: to when him and Naruto used chidori and rasengan on the limbo madara

before that you would notice juudara who was a good distance away instantly appeared in front of sasuke who had readied an attack 

minato can do the same, itachi would have no idea that's what he has in mind. that's a lot less predictable than wraping to itachi

I would say


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## Ersa (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato should edge out sickly death-bed Itachi most of the time barring unfavourable conditions. He can dodge out most of his shit and wear him out until illness and stamina issues start to kick in. Depending on the conditions, he goes even with healthy Itachi and loses to ET Itachi since the latter just wears him down instead with clones and MS spam.

ET Minato > ET Itachi > Minato >= Healthy Itachi >> Sick Itachi


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato will not wear down. Itachi vs. Minato should be a quick fight, so there should be no difference between Sick Itachi & Edo Itachi provided there is knowledge & Itachi is not blind. Minato's strategy seems to be "win asap", so Itachi will be going full force from the onset if he does not want to die. What happens from there is a toss-up, but the fight would last like a minute lol.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Looked like he was taking his time with Ei & Killer Bee, making inferences about their relationship after meeting them for the first time in his life as if he was some kind of saint.. and not a stone cold murderer who would one day abandon his child minutes after his birth. 

The only time he rushed in a battle was against the masked man, when a bijuu was raging in his village and his wife was dying, but so was Obito, which is why it ended quickly. Obito could've easily stalled him for an extended period, well beyond the point where Kurama would have destroyed the entire village.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato knew A was fast, so he littered the field with Kunai. Then when A attacked, Minato was suddenly in his back with a Kunai. I guess B anticipated this, because he was able to knock A out of the way.

Then the retreat alarm sounded. Fight over. No more killer intent. However, A shouted after Minato that he "wouldn't get away," and threw a feint, but Minato teleported behind B and basically threatened to kill him if A didn't knock it off. Minato wasn't even looking at B after he warped to him. 

I'm not sure how that isn't "win asap." If A had been alone and had been a normal guy (in terms of durability), then Minato would have ended that fight in about ten seconds.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

He talked far longer than he fought, implying he wasn't in the least bit ending it "ASAP"

There's zero reason to speak a word to an enemy in war to begin with unless you're interrogating them.

He also didn't kill Mahiru instantly, allowing him to converse prior to killing him.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> He can move, just not for very long
> 
> Except Bee was not Minato's target, he was playing spectator and his tentacle was moving towards A before Minato even began his attack,



Why would B try to hit his brother before Minato even targeted him? As a prank? That's not what it looked like.



> unless you think Bee's tentacle can cover 15m faster than Minato can make a stabbing motion.



That is exactly what I think.

I'm not saying that's right, but that's what Kishi drew. Because Kishi is stupid.

But looking at it realistically, Minato did consider it possible for B to stab him before he could warp away. That combined with B's ability to intercept Minato's attack suggests they are close enough in speed for B to offer some kind of reaction, which we see in both cases, and that's what I'm getting at with itachi...who can throw up a chakra barrier with Bijuu-level striking power at will.



> I don't remember the Sasuke thing as it's been a while since i've looked at anything naruto-related, but i'm sure there's a logical explanation for that aswell.



There is: Sasuke activated Susano'o faster than Minato could mold chakra with a hand-seal for Hiraishin. You could call that an outlier because Minato needed a seal first for the chakra, but it's relevant because it shows that Minato sometimes needs to do that (IIRC, we saw the same thing right before he took out those fifty Iwa Jonin), and it shows Susano'o can be activated faster.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

@ Wiz

You're being unnecessarily literal and I don't know why. Mahiru lost as soon as that mark was placed on his shoe. It doesn't matter if he let Mahiru talk; Mahiru was pissing himself because he knew he was going to die. The "fight" was over. Mahiru could no longer defend himself or attack Minato because that would have prompted Minato to slit his throat even sooner. 

Normally Minato doesn't talk to his enemies as evidenced by the fifty people that lost to him in the blink of an eye. When you run into other powerhouses conversation is probably going to happen. Keep in mind that this isn't real life. It's manga. I don't know if two relevant characters have _ever_ engaged each other without saying anything at all. 

Minato still ended the fight with A asap anyway. The only thing he said was that he heard A was fast, and that was before either party engaged in battle. Five seconds later, Minato was in A's back with a Kunai. Fight over (in most cases). Then the retreat alarm sounded, so Minato wasn't trying to kill them anymore.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> @ Wiz
> 
> You're being unnecessarily literal and I don't know why. Mahiru lost as soon as that mark was placed on his shoe. It doesn't matter if he let Mahiru talk; Mahiru was pissing himself because he knew he was going to die. The "fight" was over. Mahiru could no longer defend himself or attack Minato because that would have prompted Minato to slit his throat even sooner.
> 
> ...


Gai was bombarding Madara the entire time he was fighting him and didn't speak to him at all, he also spoke very few words to Kisame during their interaction, only after he had captured him did he reward him with a reply.

In fact, both times he fought him he barely spoke at all. 

There's your example. 

Minato fought in three battles. One, where he spoke far more than he fought (Ei & Killer Bee). One, where he spoke as much as he fought (Obito). One, where he spoke far more than he fought (Jubito). 

The off panel 50-man obliteration was a sync'd attack, he deliberately set it up to destroy the force in a single attack. 

Why? Because he was going to fight 50 dudes he knew nothing about and it's obvious killing them all in a single attack is more logical than killing a few, showcasing who you are and your ability, and having them implement whatever counters they could to stall him or escape.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Why would B try to hit his brother before Minato even targeted him? As a prank? That's not what it looked like.



Uh, anticipation that A was going to get counter-attacked. B probably noticed Minato flick that Kunai up and sent a tentacle immediately over to A, not knowing where exactly Minato would appear. If B were actually reacting to Minato coming out of Hiraishin, then he would have thrown a sword into Minato's brain, or at least hit Minato with the tentacle, not A. 



Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke activated Susano'o faster than Minato could mold chakra with a hand-seal for Hiraishin.



That isn't exactly a fair comparison. Sasuke was standing next to Naruto, and Minato sprinting towards Obito with a clone out. Minato didn't turn and spot them until after Obito was preparing to launch the spear, whereas Sasuke was watching everything the entire time. Sasuke could have been getting ready to block Obito's attack with Susanoo before Minato even knew Obito was attacking.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Gai was bombarding Madara the entire time he was fighting him and didn't speak to him at all, he also spoke very few words to Kisame during their interaction, only after he had captured him did he reward him with a reply.
> 
> In fact, both times he fought him he barely spoke at all.
> 
> There's your example.



That's a terrible example then. Gai & Madara exchanged words before they fought. So was it interrogation, or was it not a war? 

Same goes for Kisame vs. Gai. [1][2]


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Here's what happened intiially:
[1]
[2]
[3]

That's called attacking immediately and trying to end the battle ASAP with no bullshit. 

Then you have him speaking two sentences to Madara, after opening a certain-death technique to defeat Madara in front of him, then fighting him for the remainder of his 8th Gated session without uttering a word to him. 

*Kisame*:

Your one example has Gai speaking 5 words, which amounts to him asking who the opponent is, then fighting without another word uttered. 

Your other example has Gai speaking two sentences, then fighting for the remainder of the bout without a word uttered.



			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> "he also spoke very few words to Kisame during their interaction"


Applies to the two examples above


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Minato didn't say anything to A _once they started fighting._ He only began to talk to him again after their team was planning to retreat, so Minato was no longer trying to win a fight. Against Obito he asked a question, so call it interrogation if it makes you happy.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

What the fuck?

[First Panel]

>Ei says a bunch of shit
>"Everyone, get back, I'll handle him"
>Ei shunshins, countered
>Ei and Minato talk shit for a period about Killer Bee
>Mianto turns his backs still talking, Ei shunshins again
>Warps to Killer Bee, Minato says more shit
>Warps away

=

Fights for like 2 seconds

Talks for like 2 minutes

Does no damage to either of them accomplishing nothing


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Uh, anticipation that A was going to get counter-attacked. B probably noticed Minato flick that Kunai up and sent a tentacle immediately over to A, not knowing where exactly Minato would appear. If B were actually reacting to Minato coming out of Hiraishin, then he would have thrown a sword into Minato's brain, or at least hit Minato with the tentacle, not A.



That interpretation doesn't negate the possibility of B hitting Minato with the tentacle, though; it just offers an alternative starting point for B's reaction.



> That isn't exactly a fair comparison. Sasuke was standing next to Naruto, and Minato sprinting towards Obito with a clone out. Minato didn't turn and spot them until after Obito was preparing to launch the spear, whereas Sasuke was watching everything the entire time. Sasuke could have been getting ready to block Obito's attack with Susanoo before Minato even knew Obito was attacking.



Maybe or maybe not. Bottom line is Sasuke got Susano'o up first while Minato was in the process of reacting.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> >A acknowledges that he recognizes Minato.
> >Minato acknowledges that he recognizes A.
> >B raps.
> >Minato warns his team (he isn't talking to the _enemy_).
> >Ei shunshins, countered



I've edited your post to resemble the actual fight. After that, Minato's team leaves, and Minato turns his back and begins to follow them. Then B calls after him, bragging. Minato, no longer trying to fight them (_*he was retreating*_) compliments B. A yells that Minato isn't getting away and runs him down, so Minato teleports behind B in an essential threat to A to back down.

Minato's mission was over as soon as that horn sounded, so he had no reason to fight them anymore.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

How long did they fight for, that is to say, how long was Minato/Ei/Killer Bee moving to attack?

How long were they not fighting, that is to say, not moving or conducting Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Genjutsu in an immediate attacking fashion from the start of this kunai caption [1] at the top right of this panel to the last word "shinobi" uttered by Minato at the bottom left of this panel [2]?

Once you answer these questions, you'll realize he wasn't trying to do anything "As Soon As Possible"

Minato was bullshitting, for no purpose whatsoever, with an enemy he would have to one day viciously murder like a savage without hesitation and with a sense of relief.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> That interpretation doesn't negate the possibility of B hitting Minato with the tentacle, though; it just offers an alternative starting point for B's reaction [...] Maybe or maybe not. Bottom line is Sasuke got Susano'o up first while Minato was in the process of reacting.



Itachi is never going to be in the same situation as Sasuke or B, though. Minato isn't going to be rushing or attacking somebody else. I don't think that Itachi is too slow to fight Minato, but I don't know what you're actually trying to prove with those two examples. Fighting Minato is more about knowledge than speed (provided you're fast enough to keep up with him outside of ftg, which Itachi is). Without knowledge, even A was "too slow" to fight Minato. Jesusbito was "too slow" to stop Hiraishin when he was marked. They're nigh-instantaneous attacks. You have to anticipate them. Relying on reflexes isn't going to work against teleportation.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Minato was bullshitting with an enemy he would have to one day viciously murder like a savage for nothing other than political purposes.



I don't know how having a Kunai in A's back after five seconds is bullshitting. I keep telling you that the fight was over once the retreat alarm sounded, so your second link is irrelevant.


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Itachi is never going to be in the same situation as Sasuke or B, though. Minato isn't going to be rushing or attacking somebody else.



Clones. 



> I don't think that Itachi is too slow to fight Minato, but I don't know what you're actually trying to prove with those two examples. Fighting Minato is more about knowledge than speed (provided you're fast enough to keep up with him outside of ftg, which Itachi is). Without knowledge, even A was "too slow" to fight Minato. Jesusbito was "too slow" to stop Hiraishin when he was marked. They're nigh-instantaneous attacks. You have to anticipate them. Relying on reflexes isn't going to work against teleportation.



Itachi has full knowledge here.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't know how having a Kunai in A's back after five seconds is bullshitting. I keep telling you that the fight was over once the retreat alarm sounded, so your second link is irrelevant.



Answer this for me:



> How long did they fight for, that is to say, how long was Minato/Ei/Killer Bee moving to attack? [Answer 1: *Put it Here*]
> 
> How long were they not fighting, that is to say, not moving or conducting Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Genjutsu in an immediate attacking fashion from the start of this kunai caption [1] at the top right of this panel to the last word "shinobi" uttered by Minato at the bottom left of this panel [2]? [Answer 2: *Put it Here*]


That's the second time you nick picked a singular sentence out of my paragraph reply. 

I ask that you 
1. don't ignore points that are detrimental to your argument by only addressing the ones that are beneficial for your rebuttal
2. acknowledge when you've been proven wrong like any reasonable human being should

If you can't do that, there's no point in me replying, whatsoever, because you're just ignoring anything that challenges your view and I'm not interested in debating with someone who isn't the least bit objective.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Answer this for me.



Okay.



DaVizWiz said:


> How long did they fight for, that is to say, how long was Minato/Ei/Killer Bee moving to attack?



I'd say that from the time A rushed Minato to the time Minato tried to stab him, roughly 1-2 seconds passed.  



DaVizWiz said:


> How long were they not fighting, that is to say, not moving or conducting Ninjutsu/Taijutsu/Genjutsu in an immediate attacking fashion



However long it took him to greet A and prepare for battle (spread markers). Maybe around 20 seconds?



DaVizWiz said:


> from the start of this kunai caption [1] at the top right of this panel to the last word "shinobi" uttered by Minato at the bottom left of this panel [2]?





> I keep telling you that the fight was over once the retreat alarm sounded, so your second link is irrelevant.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

> I'd say that from the time A rushed Minato to the time Minato tried to stab him, roughly 1-2 seconds passed.


Well done. 



> However long it took him to greet A and prepare for battle (spread markers). Maybe around 20 seconds?


And what of Minato and Ei continuing to speak after he knees Ei and slices the tentacle?

Ei then attacks him again, the battle is clearly not over.

Minato counters by warping to Killer Bee, where he speaks to Killer Bee again.

Minato then teleports away.

The battle is over then.

Now please re-read the battle, and ensure that you take into consideration every second where the characters aren't immediately attacking each other, which includes standoffs and every dialogue exchange. 

Be sure you include every part of it until after Minato utters "killer shinobi", where the battle is then shown over as he teleports away having previously had a fucking kunai pointed inches away from Killer Bee's head all the way up until killer shinobi was uttered.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

You and I disagree on when the fight ended. "Minato wants to win asap" only applies when Minato is interested in fighting. If he isn't interesting in fighting, why would he want to win _a fight_ asap?


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

Are you implying a character speaking several paragraphs of content to an enemy in a world war they've never met in their waking lives before a display that said character wants to "win as soon as possible"

"As soon as *POSSIBLE*"

*Definition of as soon as. : immediately at*

*Definition of Possible: able to be done; within the power or capacity of someone or something*

*immediately* *able to be done*

Surely you're not implying that Rocky.

Surely.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

When Minato wants to defeat his enemy, he wants to do it as soon as possible. You seem to be under the impression that Minato still wanted to defeat A & B after the alarm sounded. If that were true, he wouldn't have turned and started walking away from them.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

He teleported back to the enemy and held a kunai above his head with the intention of bringing it down on it. 

Are you implying that was Minato's way of showing the battle had ended?

And he did not walk away, he turned around and began uttering a sentence that indicated he was not at all finished 

*"I*  <- Beginning of sentence that indicates he wasn't finished even prior to Ei dashing at him

*Ei dashes*
*
have people close to me that's why...*

*Turns around without a surprised face at all*

*Ei's fist in face*

*teleports to Killer Bee with weapon in place to kill* * I won't fail!*"  <- Conclusion of sentence and action that both indicate he wasn't finished


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2016)

He didn't walk away, he turned, then began uttering a sentence, while standing COMPLETELY STILL, which was finished with "*I WONT FAIL!*" a DIRECT, 

DIRECT

Indication he wasn't finished.

When you teleport back at an enemy with a kunai in your hand, instead of back to your group who DEFINITELY had markers on them, the battle is 100%

1000%

Still on

On a more relevant note, if you think Minato would walk back to his group instead of just teleporting back to them, your smoking some powerful shit. 

If you think he would try to get away from Ei on foot AT ALL, even with full powered shunshin, you're smoking some powerful shit.

Everyone and their grandmother knows Minato escaping Ei on foot is not possible in any scenario imaginable.

If he was done, he'd of disappeared out of thin air. He wouldn't turn, he wouldn't walk away, he wouldn't shunshin away, because he'd get his ass run down by Ei in a half second. He would teleport away, which is what he did, AFTER he tried to kill Killer Bee.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 14, 2016)




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## Saru (Jan 14, 2016)

I don't even understand what's being debated. Of course Minato tries to kill his opponents as quickly as possible. His entire moveset revolves around doing exactly that.

Of course A and B got dumped on and saved by the bell.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> He didn't walk away, he turned, then began uttering a sentence, while standing COMPLETELY STILL, which was finished with "*I WONT FAIL!*" a DIRECT,
> 
> DIRECT
> 
> Indication he wasn't finished.





Let me ask you something. What was it that Minato wouldn't fail? 



DaVizWiz said:


> If he was done, he'd of disappeared out of thin air. He wouldn't turn, he wouldn't walk away, he wouldn't shunshin away, he'd teleport away.



Then A would have just gone after his group. The group says let's go, and Minato turns as they all run away, and B says something, and Minato gives a speech that includes the words "the next time we meet." Yet you think he wanted to kill them there. That is a blatantly stupid interpretation. If Minato is planning to have a death match...why the fuck is he talking about meeting them in the future?


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## Trojan (Jan 15, 2016)

and goodbye itachi, it was not nice known you.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

Gotta agree with rocky here 

Bee knew he was marked and prepared his defence already 

Same way Tobirama noticed juubito had covered his back this time and jumping towards him again would have been bad 

However when juubito did not set up a defence to cover his back the guy was blitz on more than one occasion 

I think though itachi camps till he dies


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Minato's reaction speed coupled with Hirashin is something people have trouble reacting to.
His body speed, aka striking speed, isn't.

People always seem to forget about it.


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## fyhb (Jan 15, 2016)

That's pretty much it. Those gifs serve as a great example, actually: hiraishin isn't a goddamn attack, its just positioning. Pretty much all mid kage + fodderstomp it.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato's reaction speed coupled with Hirashin is something people have trouble reacting to.
> His body speed, aka striking speed, isn't.
> 
> People always seem to forget about it.



Agreed

But he will always use hirashin 

It's as fool proof as itachi using genjufsu 

These guys in all their battles have always successfully used either hirashin or genjutsu 

So not like both cancel each other out here 

The thing with hirashin is even if minato is less skilled at cloning and feinting. Hirashin allows Him to make up for that gap 

As well as the ability to throw 30+ kunai in 1 swing . Something even someone more skilled like itachi hasn't done


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## Garcher (Jan 15, 2016)

it is 2016 and people still believe Minato can stand up to the King


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Why would B try to hit his brother before Minato even targeted him? As a prank? That's not what it looked like.



Because he knew shit was about to go down.




> That is exactly what I think.
> 
> I'm not saying that's right, but that's what Kishi drew. Because Kishi is stupid.



Or we go with my interpretation, which makes a thousand times more sense than yours.



> That combined with B's ability to intercept Minato's attack



Now you're just making stuff up.


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2016)

Hussain said:


> and goodbye itachi, it was not nice known you.



That would be nice of Itachi to show Minato in the Tsukuyomi World because Minato attempting that inital kick ends up in this
*Link Removed*


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Agreed
> 
> But he will always use hirashin
> 
> ...



I am not saying that he won't use Hirashin. I'm only saying that he is a mere mortal in between the times he is using Hirashin, where he relies on his body speed.

Its like, Itachi can tank pretty much anything with Susano'O and Yata. But during the time he isn't using it, he gets a kunai to the spine and dies.

Also I don't think Minato threw 30 of them in one swing. Kishimoto didn't show every single swing.

Sort of like this : level

Either way I find Itachi's feat more impressive beause we have a time frame.

Itachi performed handseals, threw a shit ton of shuriken while at the same time infusing them with Katon chakra by the time B can swing Samehada once.

As you can see Itachi has his hands together when B swings on the top panel, and perfoms the whole jutsu by the time samehada touches the ground in the below panel.

Don't fuck with the king when it comes to projectiles. Itachi would teach Rikodou a few tricks when it comes to shuriken jutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

> Grimmjowsensei said:
> 
> 
> > I am not saying that he won't use Hirashin. I'm only saying that he is a mere mortal in between the times he is using Hirashin, where he relies on his body speed.
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Minato has to rely on his body speed everytime he needs to perform an action. Like, perform handseals, kick, punch, slash with kunai or put a tag on a target, etc.
Thats when he is the most exposed. Thats what I was pointing out.

Chakra infused shuriken > regular shuriken.

Just like a chakra infused sword > Regular sword

Its just common sense mate.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato has to rely on his body speed everytime he needs to perform an action. Like, perform handseals, kick, punch, slash with kunai or put a tag on a target, etc.
> Thats when he is the most exposed. Thats what I was pointing out.
> 
> Chakra infused shuriken > regular shuriken.
> ...



So tell me what Itachi does in this millisecond that Minato is "exposed" before he gets a kunai planted in the back of his head.

The only thing that could save him is Susano and even that i only see him pulling off if he knows hes near a tag.

And even _then_, he won't be able to hold Susano up for long. The end result is a kunai to the throat/brain no matter how you look at it.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 15, 2016)

This is a battle that will never end. I see this ending in a draw just like Gengetsu vs muu where they both kill each other. They have a long shiruken battle, using shadow clones minato manages to get some near itachi. Minato teleports around creates a massive rasengan, teleports to itachi backside and while minato hits him with rasengan, Itachi lights minato's entire body on fire with Amaterasu.

They're the second smartest in the manga, tied for second behind tobirama, both are potrayed as equal benchmarks for naruto and sasuke, and both are kishi's golden boys.  I can't see one beating the other


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato has to rely on his body speed everytime he needs to perform an action. Like, perform handseals, kick, punch, slash with kunai or put a tag on a target, etc.
> Thats when he is the most exposed. Thats what I was pointing out.
> 
> Chakra infused shuriken > regular shuriken.
> ...



but anything he has to do those things. he is already in very close range to itachi. so becomes more of a question of itachi reacting to minato mid attack 

itachi has no shown better physical speed than minato either


lol sasuke chakra infuses his shiruken and summons them so he is > itachi in that department wouldn't you say 

there is nothing regular about hirashin marked kunai. nothing at all


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## Dr. White (Jan 15, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> This is a battle that will never end. I see this ending in a draw just like Gengetsu vs muu where they both kill each other. They have a long shiruken battle, using shadow clones minato manages to get some near itachi. Minato teleports around creates a massive rasengan, teleports to itachi backside and while minato hits him with rasengan, Itachi lights minato's entire body on fire with Amaterasu.
> 
> They're the second smartest in the manga, tied for second behind tobirama, both are potrayed as equal benchmarks for naruto and sasuke, and both are kishi's golden boys.  I can't see one beating the other



I once tried long ago to unite the two fandoms..Imagine the objective debating that would come from people arguing character X because of it's ramifications in other matches, leading to ulterior motives in threads. Imagine a world where rocky goes all TLR to backup Itachi when it's sanctioned, or Niku pointing out that Minato can beat Sick Itachi.

NF just wasn't ready for that powerlevel


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2016)

For me the best way for this battle to be set is for neither to have full knowledge. both should have manga knowledge

so itachi would know of hirashin requiring marks, however not every detail of hirashin. Or that minato can use senjutsu etc

minato would know of MS but not itachi specific MS jutsu

This is how I think the battle would play out. 

- minato attempts throwing kunai at itachi who counters with katon covered bending shiruken to deflect all of them. While some bend around minato kunai to target minato who dodges with some movement

- itachi creates clone behind minato

-minato dodges by letting go of kunai and appears behind itachi. the clone is attacked only for minato to find out it was rigged to blow

-hirashin escape is made. 

- itachi targets minato who appears at the mark only to find out that minato was a clone. the real minato used speed to avoid the blast by jumping back wards. 

-real minato appears in front of itachi with a rasengan in hand, but itachi avoids this 

- he uses great fire ball which minato avoids

(I think this short version is how things would play out) blow for blow

eventually susanoo comes out, and it becomes drawn out till itachi looses steam

once itachi is in susanoo, minato cannot harm him in any way

never been one to belive ST could by pass susanoo


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## Indra (Jan 15, 2016)

Minato merks Itachi


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 15, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I once tried long ago to unite the two fandoms..Imagine the objective debating that would come from people arguing character X because of it's ramifications in other matches, leading to ulterior motives in threads. Imagine a world where rocky goes all TLR to backup Itachi when it's sanctioned, or Niku pointing out that Minato can beat Sick Itachi.
> 
> NF just wasn't ready for that powerlevel



Wouldnt that be wonderful. A place where everyone debates for both sides instead of picking favorites, seeing things both ways objectively. I dont see that too often, using information from other threads argue what will occur or who wins the match up.

I believe it'll all come in time. I used to wank sasuke and hiruzen to no end. Then there were the weekly "orochimaru will take over edo madaras body" threads, "orochimaru will break out of Infinte Tsukuyomi" or minato vs 5 people threads. It made me hate orochimaru and minato but now im neutral to all.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

If you don't think Minato will win you ain't objective


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> No, the marker itself determines the location of where Minato's going to warp. Him tagging Itachi's clone does mean that he's connected to the original, but that only means that he can warp the original to any marked location, not that he can suddenly blindside the original when he hasn't marked Itachi yet.
> 
> Please show me an example in the manga where Minato has warped to an unmarked location.
> 
> ...


Listen to me very carefully, when he's touching Itachi's chakra (clone), he is literally making Itachi a FTG marker, temporarily. 

He's creating a temporary link that gives him access to warping to Itachi and wherever his chakra may be- outside of his body. 

When he touches a clone, Itachi, and any other chakra split of Itachi (more clones, Itachi himself, Amaterasu, Susano, Katon) becomes an FTG marker. 

If he can teleport the entire alliance, that is covered in Naruto's chakra, to another marked location, by touching Naruto, that means he himself could have warped to any of the people who had Naruto's chakra, or warped any of them to him. 

The connection was made (fist bump = physical contact), they all became walking FTG markers because he literally teleported everyone of them without having previously marked them. If he can teleport them somewhere else, he should also be able to teleport to them. 

So where you're saying he needs to teleport only to a marked location, you're wrong.

Once he touches Itachi's clone, Itachi becomes just like a marked location- without having to be marked. 

Just as the shinobi alliance became a marked location without having to be marked, when he touched Naruto.

The marker is nothing more than a seal containing Minato's chakra that immortalizes the connection. It is not the be all end all for Minato's teleport locations. 

The connection itself is created by:
1. Minato physically touching the thing
2. Minato physically touching the person's chakra
3. Minato's chakra physically touching the physical thing (immortalized through marker)
4. Minato's chakra physically touching the person's chakra (immortalized through marker)

Once the connection is made with a person/their chakra, teleporation options are:
1. teleport any other parts of the person's chakra or whatever the person's chakra is touching back to Minato
2. teleport any other parts of the person's chakra or whatever the person's chakra is touching to any other parts of the person's chakra (clones, chakra given to another, ranged techniues -> to the person's other clone, chakra given to other person, other ranged technique)
3. teleport any other parts of the person's chakra or whatever the person's chakra is touching to any other parts of Minato's chakra (FTG marker, clones, chakra given to another)
4. teleport Minato to any other parts of the person's chakra wherever it may be (other clones, person's chakra given to someone else, ranged techniques)
5. teleport Minato to the person 
6. teleport the person to Minato 
7. teleport any other parts of Minato's chakra or anything Minato's chakra is touching (chakra given to someone, marked things/people, ranged techniuqes, clones) to the person


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> but anything he has to do those things. he is already in very close range to itachi. so becomes more of a question of itachi reacting to minato mid attack


Itachi reacted to lightning, there is nothing Minato can do that Itachi can't react to. Unless he catches Itachi completely offguard.
By the same token, Itachi can tag minato if he catches him completely offguard.



> itachi has no shown better physical speed than minato either


Amaterasu doesn't require physical speed.



> lol sasuke chakra infuses his shiruken and summons them so he is > itachi in that department wouldn't you say



As far as I recall, Sasuke never infused massive amounts of shuriken with chakra like Itachi did.



> there is nothing regular about hirashin marked kunai. nothing at all


A chakra infused kunai/shuriken is stronger than that either way.

We've seen how B's chakra infused sword was going through Zabuza's cleaver like hot knife through butter.



ImSerious said:


> So tell me what Itachi does in this millisecond that Minato is "exposed" before he gets a kunai planted in the back of his head.


Easy, Minato will never be behind his back because Itachi won't let him position himself like that.

Thats like saying "what will Minato do when Itachi looks him in the eye?"


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Easy, Minato will never be behind his back because Itachi won't let him position himself like that.
> 
> Thats like saying "what will Minato do when Itachi looks him in the eye?"



Until Itachi walks past a tag placed on a tree/the ground by one of Minato's clones.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Until Itachi walks past a tag placed on a tree/the ground by one of Minato's clones.



Which turns out to be a crow clone which disperses into crows and Minato gets blindsided and killed.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which turns out to be a crow clone which disperses into crows and Minato gets blindsided and killed.



Because Minato can't warp outta there the instant the clone dies? And then were left again in the same scenario with Itachi dying if he walks past another tag. Plus that clone takes another chunk from Itachi's chakra.

Your arguments are getting weak breh


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

He will be distracted by the crows, like everyone else has been so far, and during that small window opportunity Itachi hits him with Amaterasu and kills him.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He will be distracted by the crows, like everyone else has been so far, and during that small window opportunity Itachi hits him with Amaterasu and kills him.



Why would he be distracted by the crows? He knows Itachi has crow clones. You think hes gonna stand there staring at the crows with his jaw wide open?

Plus Itachi would have to charge up Amaterasu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Why would he be distracted by the crows? He knows Itachi has crow clones. You think hes gonna stand there staring at the crows with his jaw wide open?


He doesn't have to stand there. He kills the clone, it disperses into crows which block Minato's LOS from all directions, Minato goes "dafuq!" for a brief second and its all it takes to tag him. 



> [
> Plus Itachi would have to charge up Amaterasu.



He can charge it while Minato is busy killing the crow clone or before hand.


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## ki0 (Jan 15, 2016)

Itachi gets past the canopy of the forest summons his crow and burns the forest down with Amaterasu. One shot should do considering Amaterasu is fire and will spread on its own.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He doesn't have to stand there. He kills the clone, it disperses into crows which block Minato's LOS from all directions, Minato goes "dafuq!" for a brief second and its all it takes to tag him.



Minato doensn't go ''dafuq!'', especially if he knows Itachi has crow clones. This isn't Naruto.



> He can charge it while Minato is busy killing the crow clone or before hand.



1. It's a surprise Hiraishin blitz so Itachi won't know when it's coming, he can only start charing it after the fact.
2. Even if he was already charging beforehand Minato will still dodge it.


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

ki0 said:


> Itachi gets past the canopy of the forest summons his crow and burns the forest down with Amaterasu. One shot should do considering Amaterasu is fire and will spread on its own.



1 shot of Amaterasu is gonna burn an entire forest before Minato can walk out of it


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## Rocky (Jan 15, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He doesn't have to stand there. He kills the clone, it disperses into crows which block Minato's LOS from all directions, Minato goes "dafuq!" for a brief second and its all it takes to tag him.



Two things.

One, Itachi has never been able to capitalize on a clone feint with such speed that not even someone like Minato can react. His best feat is tagging Sasuke, who is obviously not as reactive as Minato. Kabuto was able to evade him, and Kabuto doesn't have Hiraishin, which can be used to dodge something at the last second even if Minato wasn't prepared to physically get out of the way (because of the distraction). 

Two, Minato has full knowledge. He's probably going to know to teleport at the first sign of crows, knowing that they're harmless distractions. Itachi would miss. This would only work with Minato having no knowledge & Itachi having full and laying a trap.


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## Ersa (Jan 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Minato doensn't go ''dafuq!'', especially if he knows Itachi has crow clones. This isn't Naruto.


He's not that far off.


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## ki0 (Jan 15, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> 1 shot of Amaterasu is gonna burn an entire forest before Minato can walk out of it



The battle area is the forest, unless your ok with them fighting outside of the forest?


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

ki0 said:


> The battle area is the forest, unless your ok with them fighting outside of the forest?



What exactly are you saying tho. Itachi's gonna burn an entire forest with one Amaterasu shot?


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## ImSerious (Jan 15, 2016)

Ersa said:


> He's not that far off.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2016)

I wonder if given away your plan is the smartest thing to do.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I wonder if given away your plan is the smartest thing to do.



 He wanted to make sure Kabuto fought him using the pussy method.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2016)

Fighting someone with your eyes closed is hardly "pussy method"
I would love to see how much itachi can do against anyone with his eyes closed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Fighting someone with your eyes closed is hardly "pussy method"
> I would love to see how much itachi can do against anyone with his eyes closed.



 It is. He was too scared to look him straight in the eye.


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## Trojan (Jan 16, 2016)

nah, he was like "I can beat you without even using my eyes" 

But anyway, whatever suits you... 
point is, itachi given his plan away is idiotic, even tho him acting stupidly is nothing new really. 
Alto for some reason characters/people praise for his dumbass plan that was a huge fuck up.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi reacted to lightning, there is nothing Minato can do that Itachi can't react to. Unless he catches Itachi completely offguard.
> By the same token, Itachi can tag minato if he catches him completely offguard.
> 
> 
> ...



common mate you can do better than that. sasuke gave him as much heads up as possible. also that lighting could not come down till sasuke swung his arm down

he reacted to sasuke swinging his arm down

though kirin was compared to amaterasu which is slower than minato anyway

amaterasu could never be useful against minato. its entirely useless sort of like how kamui shat on it. even if one is too claim hilariously it lands, though it failed to hit a slower opponent. even if it does minato leaves it behind 

anywayz boring debate now...itachi cockslashes at 10000km/s


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## Itachі (Jan 16, 2016)

It could go either way imo, both can use a large amount of trickery so it's not really easy to see where it ends. Itachi could get Minato into a Genjutsu and Minato could end up marking Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Minato doensn't go ''dafuq!'', especially if he knows Itachi has crow clones. This isn't Naruto.


Thats the beauty of the bunshins. you don't realize it is a bunshin until you try to kill it.
There is always a surprise factor.
Also knowing is one thing, experiencing is another.



> 1. It's a surprise Hiraishin blitz so Itachi won't know when it's coming, he can only start charing it after the fact.
> 2. Even if he was already charging beforehand Minato will still dodge it.



I do think that Minato can dodge Amaterasu if he is expecting it. But otherwise no. So If Itachi uses it in the right window of opportunity, he kills Minato.



Rocky said:


> Two things.
> 
> One, Itachi has never been able to capitalize on a clone feint with such speed that not even someone like Minato can react. His best feat is tagging Sasuke, who is obviously not as reactive as Minato. Kabuto was able to evade him, and Kabuto doesn't have Hiraishin, which can be used to dodge something at the last second even if Minato wasn't prepared to physically get out of the way (because of the distraction).


Well he pretty much ran towards Sasuke and kicked him. I am not saying that he can do the same thing to Minato. He probably would come more subtly from an angle he can't see. Amaterasu or Totsuka seem like better options.

Kabuto's sensory abilities are on a whole different level to Minato's and he still got tagged with a physical attack.
I have no doubt that Itachi could have hit him with Amaterasu or Totsuka amidst all that commotion, if he really wanted to.



> Two, Minato has full knowledge. He's probably going to know to teleport at the first sign of crows, knowing that they're harmless distractions. Itachi would miss. This would only work with Minato having no knowledge & Itachi having full and laying a trap.



Full knowledge doesn't translate into that though.

Otherwise no one would ever get exposed with a bunshin feint. Because whole Naruto universe knows about kagebunshins and most of their variants.

You may argue that Minato might play it extra carefully not to fall for a bunshin feint, but then I am talking about a scenario where he falls for one. And given Itachi's track record, it is more than likely.



Icegaze said:


> common mate you can do better than that. sasuke gave him as much heads up as possible. also that lighting could not come down till sasuke swung his arm down
> 
> he reacted to sasuke swinging his arm down


Do you have evidence or is that your interpretation ? 



> though kirin was compared to amaterasu which is slower than minato anyway


No its not. Both Amaterasu and Kirin are million times faster than Minato's striking speed.



> amaterasu could never be useful against minato. its entirely useless sort of like how kamui shat on it. even if one is too claim hilariously it lands, though it failed to hit a slower opponent. even if it does minato leaves it behind


The difference between Kamui and Amaterasu is, you can teleport during mid warp. As we've seen with Obito and Minato.

If you teleport after flames appear on you it might be too late. It depends on how early you can teleport. You have a bigger window of opportunity against Kamui.

And I don't think Minato can dodge Amaterasu unless he is expecting it.

Only Raikage did so far, when he amped his shroud to its max levels(meaning higher reaction speed than Minato) and he was expecting it.
I believe Minato can replicate that feat. But he circumstances should be similar for him to do so.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

provide evidence he reacted to lighting

and if so why has he then been hit by slower attacks?

or are those attacks scaled to be faster than lighting....feel free to respond

 slow burning flames were shat on by kamui . hirashin avoids it if even if hits minato square in the face. as I recall enton FRS struck him and he hirashin'd with no effect

but sure, dream on when we have already seen hirashin used to avoid attacks a lot faster than amaterasu

in any case polls have always suggest minato wins. so am done with the wank posts from you


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> provide evidence he reacted to lighting
> 
> and if so why has he then been hit by slower attacks?
> 
> or are those attacks scaled to be faster than lighting....feel free to respond


which attacks are you referring to.



> slow burning flames were shat on by kamui . hirashin avoids it if even if hits minato square in the face. as I recall enton FRS struck him and he hirashin'd with no effect


I already said that Minato can avoid it if he can teleport during the time flames start forming, before they light him on fire.  



> but sure, dream on when we have already seen hirashin used to avoid attacks a lot faster than amaterasu


Like what ?


> in any case polls have always suggest minato wins. so am done with the wank posts from you



Suit yourself champ.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

If they light him on fire why can't he leave them behind when he teleports ??

Feats that imply he can't do that 

Obito had no issues phasing to another dimension

Though it could never 

A who isn't a sensor , and who used shunshin which is a lot slower than hirashin could avoid it 

Minato is a sensor. Therefore he will know it's coming . He need not move to avoid it . No way he gets caught by such 

Every sensor in the manga has been able to tell Amaterasu was coming . Why minato won't be able to is beyond me


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

In all honesty why I think some are trolling here is for these reasons

-*itachi uses crow clone feint. *Yes minato wont detect it, kabuto didn't either. However itachi follow up attack was physically avoided. minato uses hirashin (crow clone feint rendered moot)

*-itachi uses genjutsu after crow clone feint.* Sensors can tell when they are in genjutsu, I don't know how you measure the strength of genjutsu but sasuke MS genjutsu should be above itachi basic genjutsu which again danzo had no issues cancelling. 

We have already seen genjutsu being dispelled, through basic things like pain. I wonder why minato is unable to hurt himself to break out. 

*-itachi cant be feinted*. (kakashi using common clone trickery was able to pull it off) why cant minato who can instantly swap with his clone via mutual hirashin technique? 

*Minato cant get a weapon close to itachi*- On this one I agree. Itachi has shown more skill so I don't think any would ever be so close he cant react

On to itachi MS

*Amaterasu*- A isn't a sensor yet can avoid it with physical speed. Why would a sensor who can instantly travel get hit by it? I am very very curious. By being a sensor minato would be very aware its coming, no sensor has ever not known amaterasu was on its way. 

I mean we even have danzo who noticed it. before he burst into flames

 hit obito squarely yet he can kamui wrap it to mitigate the damage. That is a lot slower than hirashin. Why cant minato hirashin after he has been hit?

Amaterasu effect is infinitely slower than TSB. minato could wrap away before its effects kicked in

*Tskuyomi* the biggest threat as far as I am concerned, as minato isn't genjutsu immune. However how do u land said genjutsu, when minato is instantly moving around kunai, and is a sensor so he will know itachi is gathering chakra

worse this instant moving guy, can use clones. Makes itachi landing tskuyomi twice as difficult

*Susanoo*

Minato simply doesn't have an answer for this. and would simply wait for time. 

however susanoo attacks aren't nearly fast enough to hit minato. Who gain has the reactions to avoid kamui mid wrap and TSB before it could take effect

Wear down game. Would be quite similar to sasuke vs danzo. Loads of susanoo camping till itachi runs out of steam due to simply having less chakra and using more chakra taxing techniques.


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:
			
		

> Amaterasu- A isn't a sensor yet can avoid it with physical speed. Why would a sensor who can instantly travel get hit by it? I am very very curious. By being a sensor minato would be very aware its coming, no sensor has ever not known amaterasu was on its way.




I doubt it'll be easy to catch Minato with Amaterasu. Especially with full knowledge.



> I mean we even have danzo who noticed it. before he burst into flames




It's not clear he noticed Amaterasu. It's more likely he noticed Sasuke screaming "Amaterasu" and his left eye bleeding. Amaterasu is common knowledge amongst higher-ups.



> hit obito squarely yet he can kamui wrap it to mitigate the damage. That is a lot slower than hirashin. Why cant minato hirashin after he has been hit?




Obito used Izanagi, not Kamui. Obito had a stock of Sharingan which was shown in the manga for a reason. I suspect that Itachi knew about Kamui if Konan did. Obito said he kept "a _few_ secrets" from Itachi which allowed him to survive Amaterasu. Given what we know now, I think it's safe to say those secrets were Izanagi and the stock of Sharingan he saved. Itachi actually did know about the former, but not the latter. Amaterasu had almost engulfed his whole body, so he couldn't just cut the part that was burning off and replace it with Zetsu goo like he did when Torune infected his arm with nano-bugs. And Obito opting to cut his arm off instead of warping away suggests that he can't just warp away something that deals constant damage (and Torune's bugs are not faster than Amaterasu either; Fu had them all over him long enough to exchange words with Torune before being eaten alive).




> Amaterasu effect is infinitely slower than TSB. minato could wrap away before its effects kicked in




Yet Obito seemed to need to sense the pressure/chakra buildup in Sasuke's eyes to block it from mid-range. Even Obito refers to it as a "surprise attack" in spite of the fact that he's actually had it used on him before. So I'd say Minato could definitely still get hit, though it is unlikely.


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## fyhb (Jan 16, 2016)

Itachi's Susanoo has incredible speed feats with Totsuka Sword. The only two times it was used, it impaled his opponent before they realized they'd been stabbed - in other words, faster than thought. there is no reason to believe Minato is an exception to this rule.

As for Amaterasu, it appears on the focal point of vision. Raikage had time to build up his own raiton shroud because he knew it was coming. That literal shroud bought him a split second to shunt out of the way as Amaterasu burned on his lightning afterimage in addition to boosting his speed.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Why would sasuke scream Amaterasu ?

The caption is just for the readers to know what's used . I don't really think they go about screaming out their jutsu everytime 

In any case Amaterasu can't land ever .

Scans proving he used izanagi . That was never implied at all . Also if he did , won't some of the fire have spread and burnt down the cave anywayz 

No reason kamui wrap won't work . None at all

Though am interested on these scans showing him use izanagi

Konan knowing kamui doesn't mean itachi knew . Like not at all . Konan was with obito longer , possibly knew who he was 

Itachi didn't even know it was obito . knowing kamui is fan fic .  Same way one can't assume itachi knows sasori has 3rd kazekage , so on and so forth

 , Torune bugs is a nano attack . Amaterasu is fire on his body . He can wrap that away, however how would he wrap something away that's Bacteria size ??

Very poor comparison


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## Saru (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why would sasuke scream Amaterasu ?
> 
> The caption is just for the readers to know what's used . I don't really think they go about screaming out their jutsu everytime
> 
> ...




I thought that Sasuke had said Amaterasu, my b. Still, his left eye bleeds before he uses the jutsu, which Danzo can certainly see at that range.

Why would Kamui work on Amaterasu if it didn't work on Torune's nano-bugs? Makes no sense.




> Torune bugs is a nano attack . Amaterasu is fire on his body . He can wrap that away, however how would he wrap something away that's Bacteria size ??




Obito's Kamui worked by touching things. It wasn't like Kakashi's Kamui where he looks at a target and creates a dimensional barrier from a distance. The bugs were touching him, so he should have been able to slip through it, but wait, they're already on him and constantly attacking him, so he had to chop his arm off instead. The scale of the attack shouldn't matter at all.

Explain why Obito had no damage from Amaterasu despite it engulfing his whole body.


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## ki0 (Jan 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> What exactly are you saying tho. Itachi's gonna burn an entire forest with one Amaterasu shot?


Yes that's what I'm saying




Hussain said:


> nah, he was like "I can beat you without even using my eyes"
> 
> But anyway, whatever suits you...
> point is, itachi given his plan away is idiotic, even tho him acting stupidly is nothing new really.
> Alto for some reason characters/people praise for his dumbass plan that was a huge fuck up.



Of course Itachi told Kabuto his plan, he didn't think the "fight" against Kabuto was an "actual" fight


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

@saru
Same reason Karin , after an extended period of Amaterasu being on her only had her clothes burned and barely burnt her back 

Amaterasu burns really slow when kishi wants


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## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats the beauty of the bunshins. you don't realize it is a bunshin until you try to kill it.
> There is always a surprise factor.
> Also knowing is one thing, experiencing is another.



Minato knows Itachi is skilled with Bunshin feints so he will expect it, it's not gonna catch him off guard.



> I do think that Minato can dodge Amaterasu if he is expecting it. But otherwise no. So If Itachi uses it in the right window of opportunity, he kills Minato.



Amaterasu is never gonna hit Minato, it's simply too slow.



ki0 said:


> Yes that's what I'm saying



And you want me to take you seriously?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> If they light him on fire why can't he leave them behind when he teleports ??


Because he can't do it. How can he leave behind flames that are stuck to his flesh ? It is a chemical reaction at that point, its not a seperate entity like an object that he can just leave behind.

Also this : deduce them himself. 

That pretty much ensures that Amaterasu will teleport with him.



> Obito had no issues phasing to another dimension


When did Obito phase into another dimension when he was lit on fire by Amaterasu ? 



> A who isn't a sensor , and who used shunshin which is a lot slower than hirashin could avoid it


A isn't a sensor, but with V2 his reaction speed is above Minato's. He sensed the heat and moved away before the flames could light him on fire. 


> Minato is a sensor. Therefore he will know it's coming . He need not move to avoid it . No way he gets caught by such
> 
> Every sensor in the manga has been able to tell Amaterasu was coming . Why minato won't be able to is beyond me



Well first off, I already said that Minato can avoid it  if Itachi tries to straigth up use Amaterasu. 
I am only claiming that Itachi can get him with Amaterasu in the heat of the battle, like after a bunshin feint or when Minato is trying to perform an action. My argument is that, Amaterasu will be successful in the context of a counter hit.

Second off, Most sensors can sense the build up of chakra in his eye, but like we've seen against Nagato, Itachi can use Amaterasu anytime he wants once he builds up the chakra. 

And the "sensors" you are talking about, are all on a completely different than Minato when it comes to sensing. They all have better feats.
So I'd say transfering their feats to Minato would be a fallacy. 

And last but not least, we know for a fact that Kabuto can casually avoid Sasuke's arrow under normal circumstances, but he can't avoid it when he is distracted. deduce them himself. 

This applies to everyone. 


Not to mention, Kabuto's sensory abilities are on a whole different level compared to Minato.

So if Minato is distracted, he is going to get hit, even if you assume that he is a high level sensor on Kabuto's level, which he isn't.




ImSerious said:


> Minato knows Itachi is skilled with Bunshin feints so he will expect it, it's not gonna catch him off guard.


It caught Sasuke off guard, and Sasuke knew Itachi had a bunshin out.



> Amaterasu is never gonna hit Minato, it's simply too slow.



I think the likehood of Amaterasu hitting Minato is more than the likehood of Minato hitting Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

@grimm  
Minato didn't know TSB was on him hence why he jumped with it 

He will know Amaterasu is on him if he jumps after it hits him . It's certainly slow enough to allow sasuke to use oral rebirth 

Hirashin won't have an issue leaving it behind

But yes I agree on that on a counter attack itachi can actually hit him . But that goes both ways , however we know who has the faster attack between the 2 of them 

Though the most dangerous thing here is tskuyomi . To that I can't really argue much outside I expect minato to be using clones to reduce the chances 

mostly susanoo will have to be used which doesn't help itachi it kills him quicker


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## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It caught Sasuke off guard, and Sasuke knew Itachi had a bunshin out.



Sasuke isn't Minato, and Sasuke doesn't have Hiraishin.



> I think the likehood of Amaterasu hitting Minato is more than the likehood of Minato hitting Itachi.



Well then you're wrong


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## ki0 (Jan 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> And you want me to take you seriously?



And why would a huge ball of extremely hot fire in a place full of flammable material not spread like wildfire?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> Minato didn't know TSB was on him hence why he jumped with it


He wasn't aware of it and  Obito* stuck it inside his body.
*


> He will know Amaterasu is on him if he jumps after it hits him . It's certainly slow enough to allow sasuke to use oral rebirth



Oral rebirth is a kawarimi that negates the damage done to him. 
 He didn't get rid of the flames.
It is completely unrelated to Hirashin.



> Hirashin won't have an issue leaving it behind


It won't. Because there is no evidence that Minato can seperate the flames thats burning his flesh from his body. Doesn't make sense.


> But yes I agree on that on a counter attack itachi can actually hit him . But that goes both ways , however we know who has the faster attack between the 2 of them



Amaterasu is faster than Minato's striking speed. 



> Though the most dangerous thing here is tskuyomi . To that I can't really argue much outside I expect minato to be using clones to reduce the chances


I think if Tsukiyomi can land, so then any other genjutsu, and 3 tomoe genjutsu can be as lethal as Tsukiyomi. 



> [
> mostly susanoo will have to be used which doesn't help itachi it kills him quicker



I don't think Itachi will need to use Susano'o other than maybe the ribcage version here and there if he somehow gets blindsided or something, which surely won't kill him quickly.



ImSerious said:


> Sasuke isn't Minato, and Sasuke doesn't have Hiraishin.


How is Minato different than Sasuke ? Minato gets surprised and gets caught offguard like any other person.
My point is, knowing that someone uses bunshin doesn't reduce the chances of them getting surprised when they get feinted by one.
Otherwise, like I said to Rocky, no one in the entire manga would get exposed after a bunshin feint, because bunshin usage is pretty common in Naruto universe.



> Well then you're wrong



Agree to disagree then. I just don't see Minato hitting Itachi in between Susano'o, bunshin feints and full knowledge.


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## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

ki0 said:


> And why would a huge ball of extremely hot fire in a place full of flammable material not spread like wildfire?



It's not gonna burn an entire forest before this battle is over, so what's your point?


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## ki0 (Jan 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> It's not gonna burn an entire forest before this battle is over, so what's your point?



What do you think Minato would do to end the battle that quickly?


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## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> How is Minato different than Sasuke ? Minato gets surprised and gets caught offguard like any other person.
> My point is, knowing that someone uses bunshin doesn't reduce the chances of them getting surprised when they get feinted by one.
> Otherwise, like I said to Rocky, no one in the entire manga would get exposed after a bunshin feint, because bunshin usage is pretty common in Naruto universe.



Being able to use Bunshin =/= Being skilled with Bunshin feints. Minato knows specifically that Itachi is skilled with Bunshin feints, so he will expect it.

Plus Minato's reflexes > Sasuke's
Plus Hiraishin



> Agree to disagree then. I just don't see Minato hitting Itachi in between Susano'o, bunshin feints and full knowledge.



How long can he keep Susano up?
How many clones can he make?


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## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

ki0 said:


> What do you think Minato would do to end the battle that quickly?



He takes a kunai and puts in between Itachi's eyes.


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## ki0 (Jan 16, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> He takes a kunai and puts in between Itachi's eyes.



So you believe Minato can end the battle anytime he wants?


----------



## ImSerious (Jan 16, 2016)

ki0 said:


> So you believe Minato can end the battle anytime he wants?



He can end it before 1 Amaterasu shot burns an entire forest, that's for sure


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Any other genjufsu is inherently weaker than tskuyomi which means it's subscetible to 

- cancelling by inflicting pain 
- stopping chakra flow 

Both things minato can do.  his basic genjufsu can't be stronger than sasuke MS genjufsu which Danzo who isn't a sensor could shit on 

So no tskuyomi is dangerous the others aren't 

How can minato not be aware he is on fire ?? 

Did Enton FRS hit him or not ? Feel free to explain how he left that behind . 

Minato can choose what he hirashin with himself and what he leaves behind . For one he wrapped kyuubi without taking bunta . Despite having physical contact with bunta and not with kyuubi 

When juubito was swapped with him . He was swapped without his orbs intentionally . 



Amaterasu slower than hirashin. And certainly slower than minato appearing right behind you ready to attack . 
Which is likely to happen here . Itachi ain't landing Amaterasu on minato who appears right behind him 


For one Amaterasu isn't hitting obito in a match . Hirashin strike could 

Also didn't we see Amaterasu get shat on by juubito yet he struggled a shit load more with people using hirashin to attack him

SM Naruto could hit juubito with hirashin . All am saying is it's a massive advantage u want to ignore 

Itachi can't always consistently keep away from all kunai  or clones .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Amaterasu isn't a mere physical contact. Minato has no control over being burned down to nothing by inextinguishable flames.

His conscious choice has no effect on it. So no, he can't just leave the flames behind.

Also Amaterasu can actually hit Obito because Obito's skillset, Kamui, is completely useless against it.

Phasing doesn't prevent amaterasu from appearing on him because Amaterasu is not a projectile. 
And warping into another dimension will only bring the flames along with him. 
Amaterasu hard counters Obito's moveset. He can only activate Izanagi as a means to counter it.


Hirashin strike isn't faster than Amaterasu.
First off, you are assuming that Itachi is tagged, which he is not.
Second off, Hirashin can't be sensed or preempted, and Juubito got hit because he was blindsided. Someone appeared on his back without him realizing.

You may argue that Hirashin strike can be more subtle if your opponent is tagged and is harder to react beause you can appear behind them without them realizing.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 16, 2016)

Obito was a mega-sage. It's ludicrous to think that he failed to sense the presence of Naruto appearing behind him just because he couldn't see him with his eyes. You overrate the sense of sight.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2016)

Lol kamui useless against Amaterasu 

 

Feel free to poll that statement

Obito was a sage there , he was simply struck too fast 

Yes itachi marked means he would struggle to avoid it 

All it takes to mark him is one cqc exchange 

Remember if minato touches an itachi clone minato can wrap the real itachi towards himself . So long as that clone stays on the battlefield 

UchihaX28 and I went over this


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol kamui useless against Amaterasu
> 
> 
> 
> Feel free to poll that statement


I already explained why it is useless.

Amaterasu sets anything on fire the users looks at.
Obito's intangibility doesn't make him invisible. Amaterasu is not a projectile. Obito's phasing won't work.



> Obito was a sage there , he was simply struck too fast


Sensing doesn't help much when someone teleports behind your back. It will probably too late to physicaly do anything once you pick them up on your radar, when they are an inch away from connecting their attack.

Besides, Naruto did that off-combat. Obito was talking, not fighting.
Sorta like how he "blitzed" Kaguya and ripped her arm off. 



> Yes itachi marked means he would struggle to avoid it
> 
> All it takes to mark him is one cqc exchange


If Itachi gets marked it is likely over for him.

But it is near impossible to do with his bunshins, susano'o and full knowledge.



> Remember if minato touches an itachi clone minato can wrap the real itachi towards himself . So long as that clone stays on the battlefield


Thats fanfic.



Rocky said:


> Obito was a mega-sage. It's ludicrous to think that he failed to sense the presence of Naruto appearing behind him just because he couldn't see him with his eyes. You overrate the sense of sight.


Its  likely that Obito wasn't paying attention. And it was too late when he realized they were on his back. 
I really don't take Off-combat feats that seriously.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Grimm

Clones are an extension of itachi chakra 

Read chapter 545 and learn . Touching an itachi clone could end the match here . Feel free to educate yourself you may sound smart 

Try it !

Amaterasu sets what the user is looking at yet A can move quick enough to leave LOS. Obito phasing is even quicker than that


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## Rocky (Jan 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its likely that Obito wasn't paying attention.



No, it isn't. Naruto talked to Obito. Then Obito looked over to Naruto. Then Tobirama ran over Naruto and slapped him on the back. Obito would have been watching that happen. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And it was too late when he realized they were on his back.



Yeah, which would mean that he failed to react. He implied that he would have been able to phase through it, though. He just couldn't turn around (or use the truth-seekers) in time.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I really don't take Off-combat feats that seriously.





They were all fighting each other. How is it off-combat?


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

2 reasons amstersu won't even land 

1) hebi sauce and killer bee could intercept it. Minato kunai throwing speed is even quicker 

2) A slower than minato avoided it . 

These 2 things means it won't land


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 17, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, it isn't. Naruto talked to Obito. Then Obito looked over to Naruto. Then Tobirama ran over Naruto and slapped him on the back. Obito would have been watching that happen.


It was offcombat and Obito was ranting. Imagine yourself in a boxing match. First round, your guard up, ready to duke it out with your opponent.

And now imagine yourself on the street, talking to some guy and he punches you all of a sudden.
Completely different circumstances.

Like I mentioned earlier, it was a feat similar to what Naruto did to Kaguya.



> Yeah, which would mean that he failed to react. He implied that he would have been able to phase through it, though. He just couldn't turn around (or use the truth-seekers) in time.


In other words he failed to react physicaly. Under questionable circumstances.



> They were all fighting each other. How is it off-combat?



Err no. 
They were talking, not fighting. 

Start reading from here : Link removed



Icegaze said:


> Grimm
> 
> Clones are an extension of itachi chakra
> 
> ...



When did Minato ever do something like that in a fight and who did he do that to ?



> Amaterasu sets what the user is looking at yet A can move quick enough to leave LOS. Obito phasing is even quicker than that



When obito goes intangible, parts of his body that are about to come in contact with something/someone is sent to another dimension. But Amaterasu isn't a projectile, it doesn't come in contact with you, it forms on whereever Itachi is looking at.

Whether Obito is intangible or not, Amaterasu will appear on him as long as Itachi can see him. In otherwords, as long as he is physicaly present, Amaterasu will form on him. 

Unless he warps before the flames latch onto  him. But  considering Obito doesn't have A's reaction speed and how slow the warping is, it is highly unlikely.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Minato has never fought a clone user . So dumb question asking when has he done that 

He wrapped people who had his chakra without touching them . Through touching Naruto

This shows they went back to fighting before obito got blitz 

Link removed

ObitI blocked that , how come ??


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato has never fought a clone user . So dumb question asking when has he done that
> 
> He wrapped people who had his chakra without touching them . Through touching Naruto
> 
> [



Thats something they pulled with Naruto and two halves of Kyuubi.



> This shows they went back to fighting before obito got blitz
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ObitI blocked that , how come ??



Obito and Minato started talking here : Link removed

After he blocked Gamakichi's attack.

Up until here : Link removed

And its false equivalence to compare Gamakichi's attack to Tobirama's.


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## Rocky (Jan 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Imagine yourself in a boxing match. First round, your guard up, ready to duke it out with your opponent. And now imagine yourself on the street, talking to some guy and he punches you all of a sudden.



Holy shit what a terrible analogy. Obito was in the _middle_ of a fight. He knew he could be attacked at any time. He wasn't ambushed in a non-combat situation. There was no official pause in the fight. Naruto spoke to him, then attacked. That means that Obito would have seen it coming...especially when Tobirama ran over to Naruto and slapped him on the back. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> They were talking, not fighting.



Talking ≠ Off-combat, unless you want to throw out every feat that involves or is preceded by speech. Your arbitrary decision that Obito did enough talking to where it's no longer considered combat means nothing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 17, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Holy shit what a terrible analogy. Obito was in the _middle_ of a fight. He knew he could be attacked at any time. He wasn't ambushed in a non-combat situation. There was no official pause in the fight. Naruto spoke to him, then attacked. That means that Obito would have seen it coming...especially when Tobirama ran over to Naruto and slapped him on the back.
> 
> 
> 
> Talking ≠ Off-combat, unless you want to throw out every feat that involves or is preceded by speech. Your arbitrary decision that Obito did enough talking to where it's no longer considered combat means nothing.



I didn't say talking is off combat.

They stopped actively fighting after FRS/Enton landed.
And they were in a staredown which turned into a conversation later on, wihch went on for quite a while.

It is obviously different than Characters talking to each other while puncking and kicking in the mids of the battle. It was a momentary pause.

Eitherway Obito failed to react *physicaly* to an attack that blindsided him. Even if you ignore the circumstances of being against 4 and momentarily out of combat.

Because if that feat is 100% legit.... Then it means Naruto can consistently blitz Kaguya and rip her limbs apart 1 by 1 before she can do anything.

You can't ignore the circumstances.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

@grimm read chapter 545 

Itachi clones share his chakra . That's all you need to know . 

Not hard mate 

Ps: doubt rib cage susanoo could tank FCD

About the bunta vs Tobirama attack . The point is despite talking had no issues defending himself against one but not the other 

Why ? Because hirashin blitz was simply faster than he could react physically . Though am not sure why u bold the physically as if to say itachi reaction and ability to defend himself with susanoo is quicker than obito 10 tails ability to react and physically intercept though that would even still be false 

Considering he didn't even have time to use TSB which requires no physical movement


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm read chapter 545
> 
> Itachi clones share his chakra . That's all you need to know .
> 
> Not hard mate



I gotta call scans or fanfiction on this one.


> Ps: doubt rib cage susanoo could tank FCD


I am pretty sure it could. But FCD can be dodged on foot without problems, not sure why Susano'o would be needed unless Itachi for some reason couldn't move.
Itachi was able to summon Susano'o to protect himself from Kirin, whatever stage it was. FCD is a nonfactor in this match up.



> About the bunta vs Tobirama attack . The point is despite talking had no issues defending himself against one but not the other


Again false equivalence.

You would have a point if two attacks were somewhatt comparable.
Or are you suggesting that Gamakichi's oil spit is somehow comparable to Hirashin + rasengan combo ? 




> Why ? Because hirashin blitz was simply faster than he could react physically . Though am not sure why u bold the physically as if to say itachi reaction and ability to defend himself with susanoo is quicker than obito 10 tails ability to react and physically intercept though that would even still be false



read above.



> Considering he didn't even have time to use TSB which requires no physical movement



TSB need to move physicaly.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Grimm you have already agreed if minato tags itachi he blitzes the rest you is just go on in circles 

It's impossible for minato to have a kunai close buy. Lol guess itachi would spend time fighting kunai to ensure that don't happen 

This match is a simple repeat of Danzo vs sasuke . Itachi is going to camp and minato is going to try to breach his defence . 

Only difference here is minato won't run out of steam 

izanagi is replaced by hirashin used to avoid said attacks 

Genjutsu will land I see no reason to claim it's impossible . 

Sadly the red eye kid can't camp forever


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Itachi doesn't camp in Susano'o anyway, and he has absolutely no reason to do that here. It's not like Minato has highly destructive attacks or attacks with a wide AoE.

Itachi doesn't fight the same way as MS Sasuke. At all.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

He will have to because he doesn't want to get blitz and killed 

Susanoo allows him to focus on attack only . That's the point , it's not about if minato has destructive attacks 

Someone focusing on attack is inherently a lot faster to attack than someone who has to bother with defending themselves or avoid attacks 

Itachi is fighting a super fast opponent . He can't afford not to strike with super fast attacks , which susanoo allows him to do . All the while not givin a toss about a counter attack since he is protected 

Because any thing minato does to minato would kill itachi . Itachi can't tank a kunai to the neck


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> He will have to because he doesn't want to get blitz and killed
> 
> Susanoo allows him to focus on attack only . That's the point , it's not about if minato has destructive attacks
> 
> ...




But Minato's speed is not enough to pressure Itachi to use anything more than ribcage Susano'o at most in CQC. The only way Itachi gets near Itachi is with kunai and Hiraishin, and Itachi should be able to deflect those kunai as mentioned. Even if Minato does get a kunai near Itachi, it won't go unnoticed. In other words, Itachi should be able to deflect or react to Minato's kunai with ribcage Susano'o, which are infinitely slower than Hiraishin. But the chances of Minato's kunai even reaching Itachi are slim to begin with.

This situation with Minato's kunai is just like the situation with Itachi's Amaterasu. Both attacks should be comfortably avoided and responded to by either opponent.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Minato speed is certainly enough to pressure itachi to use susanoo . Why he would choose only the rib cage version is beyond me 

Bigger construct equal stronger attacks as well . And better range of attack 

Kunai isn't the only way for minato to get close to itachi 

Clones !! Also minato kunai throwing speed as shown in the manga is quite impressive 

Lastly if itachi uses clones , he will make minato job easier . Now for someone who likes to feint a lot itachi would be setting himself up for failure here 

As for rib cage susanoo being enough an SM rasengan should say otherwise . We got an Odama rasengan which was about to by pass madara rib cage susanoo 

Senjutsu chakra provides a substantial boost 

Senpo Odama rasengan would crush rib cage susanoo .


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Minato speed is certainly enough to pressure itachi to use susanoo . Why he would choose only the rib cage version is beyond me
> 
> Bigger construct equal stronger attacks as well . And better range of attack
> 
> ...




Senjutsu isn't even IC for Minato to use, and he's bad at it by his own admission. It won't have any impact in this fight except maybe to help with avoiding Amaterasu and wearing Minato out faster.

When did Minato use Senpou: Chou Odama Rasengan ever?

Itachi has full knowledge on Minato and his clones, and he's arguably the most intelligent character in the manga. I doubt he will do anything to put himself in danger--including using an excessive full Susano'o to defend. There's nothing wrong with Itachi's feet. I would say that Minato's slightly faster on foot, but like I said, by the off chance Minato gets close to him--ribcage Susano'o threatens to smack him away. No need for full Suasno'o against Minato at all.

Even against Kabuto he used CQC for a bit. None of Itachi's actions suggest that Itachi would camp in Susano'o.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Not being IC doesn't equate to refusal to use it if needed . When Naruto first used senjutsu against pain he wasn't great at it either . Took him quite a while and needed clones to gather senjutsu . By war arc he could gather it on the fly 

Are u implying minato can't use Odama rasengan ?? Please say you are 

Itachi using cqc for abit against minato spells death . If minato touched him , he is tagged and killed shortly after 

Itachi won't be coming close 

Again susanoo is to ensure he can attack without fear of being counter attacked . That was sasuke approach because it makes sense based on Danzo use of izanagi 

Hirashin can basically force the same thing since minato will always be quicker to attack . He has the hype and feats for the one of them out of the 2 who should be quicker to strike 

Rib cage susanoo simply doesn't offer adequate range . Itachi used V3 against snakes just so you know . 

And sasuke used V1 against a kunai . 

Not like any susanoo user enjoys staying in rib cage susanoo to save chakra 

Less range , weaker defence 

A distracted Itachi could certainly get FCD . On its own it gets lol'd but considering minato fighting style Itachi would be very focused on looking at the ground since that's where kunai would be 

Gamabunta water blast and strikes are certainly more than enough to by pass rib cage susanoo


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Not being IC doesn't equate to refusal to use it if needed . When Naruto first used senjutsu against pain he wasn't great at it either . Took him quite a while and needed clones to gather senjutsu . By war arc he could gather it on the fly
> 
> Are u implying minato can't use Odama rasengan ?? Please say you are
> 
> ...




I invite you to show me a panel of Minato using Senpou: Chou Odama Rasengan. Minato's Rasengan aren't breaking Susano'o.

If Kirin couldn't crack V1 Susano'o I highly doubt FCD will do anything. Summons are useless here. Itachi fries them with Amaterasu and eats them for lunch afterwards.

You completely missed the point of my reply: Itachi doesn't camp in Susano'o. He's not going to get into CQC with full knowledge because he's Itachi.

>Comparing multiple giant snakes to Minato's attacks. 

Terrible comparison. Minato is a 5'8" human being. If you want to go the clone argument, Itachi can use clones too, and I hear his explode.


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## Veracity (Jan 17, 2016)

Even if Minato is hit with Amateratsu, he canoically can warp it off via FTG. So it's pretty useless against Minato himself.


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## Dr. White (Jan 17, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Even if Minato is hit with Amateratsu, he canoically can warp it off via FTG. So it's pretty useless against Minato himself.



Yeah if he times it perfectly in a coordinated assault. Being hit by an Ama projectile is not the same as having the flames summoned on you. Obito had to use Izanagi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2016)

Scans of Kirin of being used on rib cage susanoo 

I'll wait

 
Clones shares itachi chakra . Touching itachi clone results in itachi death 

Chapter 545


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Grimm you have already agreed if minato tags itachi he blitzes the rest you is just go on in circles
> 
> It's impossible for minato to have a kunai close buy. Lol guess itachi would spend time fighting kunai to ensure that don't happen
> 
> ...



You are misguided my friend.

Izanagi negates all attacks as long as it is active.

Hirashin allows you to avoid it.

Hirashin would only work if the circumstances are identical to Sasuke vs A. If Itachi tries to straight up use Amaterasu and Minato can probably warp away before he is set on fire.
Although if he is a split second late, which he may be if Itachi uses Amaterasu in conjunction with a distraction, then he is pretty much dead. Using hirashin when he is lit on fire wouldn't accomplish anything, like I said, Minato has no control over the flames that are attached to his flesh at that point.


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## Saru (Jan 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Scans of Kirin of being used on rib cage susanoo
> 
> I'll wait
> 
> ...




Skeletal Susano'o is the only thing he had time to form. Itachi reacted to the speed of lighting and then we later see the ribcage Susano'o surrounding Itachi, which he says he would've been dead without. Then he starts forming the rest of Susano'o, and I'm gonna tell you right now that took a hell of a lot longer than 1/1000 of a second to form. If he formed V3 Suasno'o, he could've reflected Kirin with Yata. Obviously that didn't happen.

Unless you want to argue Itachi manifested unarmored Susano'o to tank Kirin (unlikely given the context), in which case, okay, he can just form the abdomen here. Minato has nothing to make Itachi go full Susano'o. Period.

No scans of Senpou: Chou Odama Rasengan? Minato won't be using it.


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## Veracity (Jan 17, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah if he times it perfectly in a coordinated assault. Being hit by an Ama projectile is not the same as having the flames summoned on you. Obito had to use Izanagi.



If he teleports as soon as the flames are summoned on his body then they won't appear with him. Its canon.

It being summoned on him as opposed to being slammed into his body doesn't matter at all as the flames are still making contact.

You cant really argue with what happened directly in the manga anyway. Minato was hit directly with amaterasu and didn't take damage when he warped away.


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## Dr. White (Jan 17, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> If he teleports as soon as the flames are summoned on his body then they won't appear with him. Its canon.
> 
> It being summoned on him as opposed to being slammed into his body doesn't matter at all as the flames are still making contact.
> 
> You cant really argue with what happened directly in the manga anyway. Minato was hit directly with amaterasu and didn't take damage when he warped away.



If he has full knowledge, and Uchiha A is blatantly using Amaterasu in front of him then ya, he has a chance. But there are multiple ways of employing amaterasu as a threat, like sealing it into a crow, using a bushin feint and hitting him offguard like Kakashi was going to do with Deva Pein with Ration clone. Sasuke's Enton flexibility would also help him possibly tag Minato.

Summon vs projectile is a huge factor Likes. If Minato isn't aware he's on fire until it's already on him, then he's fucked.

The more believable claim is that it was Izanagi. Torune's spreading Bugs made him chop off his arm, and Obito mentioned secrets that kept him alive, and he frequented Kamui (and Itachi had spied on him to see how he got through Uchiha shrines.) with Izanagi being the secret he subsequent used to beat Konan who likewise had intimate knowledge on Tobi from the days since akatsuki started.


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## Icegaze (Jan 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> Skeletal Susano'o is the only thing he had time to form. Itachi reacted to the speed of lighting and then we later see the ribcage Susano'o surrounding Itachi, which he says he would've been dead without. Then he starts forming the rest of Susano'o, and I'm gonna tell you right now that took a hell of a lot longer than 1/1000 of a second to form. If he formed V3 Suasno'o, he could've reflected Kirin with Yata. Obviously that didn't happen.
> 
> Unless you want to argue Itachi manifested unarmored Susano'o to tank Kirin (unlikely given the context), in which case, okay, he can just form the abdomen here. Minato has nothing to make Itachi go full Susano'o. Period.
> 
> No scans of Senpou: Chou Odama Rasengan? Minato won't be using it.



i stopped at itachi reacted to the speed of lighting!! 

sasuke hand needed to move for kirin to go anywhere. itachi reacted to that. itachi cant react to speed of lighting, yet gets hit by a bloody fuma shiruken

itachi also has shown to have no issues instantly forming V3 susanoo. so I call bullshit on rib cage susanoo blocking kirin, yet gets cracked by odama rasegan (which minato can use)

and fucking EI back chop

so are those 2 things more powerful than kirin?

Odama rasengan without senjutsu can already by pass rib cage susanoo. that's already been shown in the manga


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## Saru (Jan 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> i stopped at itachi reacted to the speed of lighting!!
> 
> sasuke hand needed to move for kirin to go anywhere. itachi reacted to that. itachi cant react to speed of lighting, yet gets hit by a bloody fuma shiruken




Itachi activated Susano'o at the last possible moment. Sasuke would've seen it with his Sharingan otherwise.

The shuriken hit Itachi due to his poor vision and poor reflexes. Kind of hard to miss a lightning bolt. Itachi doesn't have to move physically to manifest Susano'o.




> tachi also has shown to have no issues instantly forming V3 susanoo. so I call bullshit on rib cage susanoo blocking kirin, yet gets cracked by *odama rasegan* (which minato can use)
> 
> and fucking *EI back chop*
> 
> ...




Well considering only one of those attacks destroyed the rib cage... One of these things is not like the other.

Still no scans of Minato's SM Rasengan I see.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2016)

So poor reflexes caused him being hit by Fuma shiruken but that same guy got reflexes to block lighting 

It's ok saru 

Itachi wins . 

A bloody rigged Fuma shiruken hit itachi but the argument here is minato can't hit him at all nor surprise attack him

Despite again a bloody Fuma shiruken being able to do that


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So poor reflexes caused him being hit by Fuma shiruken but that same guy got reflexes to block lighting
> 
> It's ok saru
> 
> ...



And i'm sure Sasuke's speech about how once he moved his hand Kirin was gonna drop had nothing to do with it 

Logic, who needs it


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 19, 2016)

This topic again...

While I like Itachi's character way more then Minatos I think Kishi made it pretty damn obvious that Minato is simply a tier above Itachi. Don't get me wrong by suggesting Minato will steam roll, but he's not winning without extreme difficulty


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## Empathy (Jan 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah if he times it perfectly in a coordinated assault. Being hit by an Ama projectile is not the same as having the flames summoned on you. Obito had to use Izanagi.



The DB confirmed Obito warped the flames off his body.


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2016)

Empathy said:


> The DB confirmed Obito warped the flames off his body.



really? link please?

Either way Kamui is different from FTG. Obito can warp the flames directly from his skin into Kamui dimension like he did to Sasuke mid Jinton explosion.

Minato is screwed if it touches his skin because he can't selectively warp the flames without his body like Kamui.


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Minato is screwed if it touches his skin because he can't selectively warp the flames without his body like Kamui.



Why not?


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why not?



Depends if you think Minato could warp himself while deciding what part of his body he has to warp.


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

That sentence did not make sense.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That sentence did not make sense.



I mean, do you think that he could warp selectively like Obito? Kind of like his phasing where he decides which part of his body he sends to the Kamui dimension.


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## Empathy (Jan 19, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> really? link please?



(Referring to _Kamui_)

""

I guess it depends on if he sucked the flames up or was able to phase out of them.



> Either way Kamui is different from FTG. Obito can warp the flames directly from his skin into Kamui dimension like he did to Sasuke mid Jinton explosion.
> 
> Minato is screwed if it touches his skin because he can't selectively warp the flames without his body like Kamui.



[_Link_]

He'll probably be alright as long he doesn't allow himself to be completely engulfed.


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I mean, do you think that he could warp selectively like Obito? Kind of like his phasing where he decides which part of his body he sends to the Kamui dimension.



Um...no? That would kill Minato. 

He'd teleport and just leave the flames behind. He decides what does and does not teleport. It's why could ftg out of Obito's chains without bringing Obito along.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Um...no? That would kill Minato.
> 
> He'd teleport and just leave the flames behind. He decides what does and does not teleport. It's why could ftg out of Obito's chains without bringing Obito along.



Obviously he doesn't need to warp only specific parts of his bodies, it's the principle of it lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Why not?



Because he doesn't have control over that interraction(amaterasu burning his flesh). Its a chemical reaction. At that point his flesh and Amaterasu can't be seperated, unless he puts out the flames.


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## Icegaze (Jan 19, 2016)

who said minato failed chemistry in grimmjaw school of science?

the guy has wrapped kyuubi while bunta was holding him without wrapping bunta

he has wrapped himself out of obito chains without taking the chains with him

he has wrapped away from TSB which negates on contact without dying from it, 

but somehow amaterasu has time to land on his body and burn him before he can wrap away

its odd because we have seen Shinra Tensei push it away effortlessly what happened to the chemical reaction then?

obito phased through it thereby moving through space, what happened to the chemical reaction then?

but its only when minato has to use hirashin to escape it, that he will be prevented from doing so due to magic you cant prove chemical reaction?


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## Vice (Jan 19, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> You are arguing who wins with people who think one of the participants can't even move.



That's amazing. Sounds like every Itachi vs. thread ever made.


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## Saru (Jan 19, 2016)

Empathy said:


> (Referring to _Kamui_)
> 
> ""
> 
> ...




I always thought Obito had used Izanagi to escape Amaterasu, so I completely misjudged that one. However, I have doubt in Minato's ability to just warp out of the flames of Amaterasu. In the example given (and the one people keep referring to in this thread), the flames didn't disappear. They still hit a target. In other words, the space that Minato occupied was replaced by something else. Minato did not warp away, he switched places with Obito, forcing Obito to take up the space instead. 

To me, it's just like if Minato had Nagato thrust a rod through his chest, he wouldn't be able to warp away and leave the rod behind. Rather, Minato would have to switch places with something or someone else in order to fill that space. In the rod example, the rod has already entered Minato's body, so he can't leave the rod behind. It's the same principle with Amaterasu. If the flames are already on (and through--burning is an interaction) Minato's skin, he can't just use Hiraishin to leave the flames behind.

The key words in that jutsu Minato and Tobirama used are *instantaneous* and *swap*. If Minato has nothing to swap with (he can't swap with air), then he can't get rid of the flames. That's how I see it, anyway. Therefore, Itachi would have to aim for Minato's face or hands to prevent him from using Hiraishin to leave his jacket behind.

*TL;DR*: Lack of a Hiraishin assist and equivalent exchange prevents Minato from escaping Amaterasu with Hiraishin. I do think he could do it with a clone, however.


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## Empathy (Jan 19, 2016)

I just interpreted that scene as Minato narrowly warping fast enough that the flames didn't stick just yet. I don't think Minato could warp a chakra rod that's already in his chest into somebody else's chest under any circumstance. The swap prerequisite you're describing sounds similar to Sasuke's _Amenotejikara_, which is essentially like _Hirashin_ without seals, but even so, I don't believe Sasuke ever showed the ability to transfer something like flames or an object implanted in himself to somebody else.


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## Saru (Jan 19, 2016)

Empathy said:


> *I just interpreted that scene as Minato narrowly warping fast enough that the flames didn't stick just yet.* I don't think Minato could warp a chakra rod that's already in his chest into somebody else's chest under any circumstance. The swap prerequisite you're describing sounds similar to Sasuke's _Amenotejikara_, which is essentially like _Hirashin_ without seals, but even so, I don't believe Sasuke ever showed the ability to transfer something like flames or an object implanted in himself to somebody else.




That could be the case too. But then, if this is the case, Minato's feat tells us less about how he would react to an Amaterasu he doesn't see coming as opposed to a telegraphed attack.




			
				Databook 4 said:
			
		

> Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu:
> Ninjutsu Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
> Ninjutsu
> A-rank;Supplementary;All ranges
> ...




To me, it seems like the flames were already on him. There's no indication he warped before the attack connected. Rather, he teleported after the hit and used Obito to swap places. But I do see where you're coming from with the flames not "sticking" yet.


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## Empathy (Jan 19, 2016)

What's your opinion on version two A narrowly evading _Amaterasu_ spawning, and _Hirashin_ being a hair faster than A?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 19, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> who said minato failed chemistry in grimmjaw school of science?
> 
> the guy has wrapped kyuubi while bunta was holding him without wrapping bunta
> 
> ...



All the things you mentioned are doable physically. 

Gamabunta isn't stuck to his flesh, neither is Kyuub or chains for that matter.

Shinra tensei negates ninjutsu, thats why it was able to "push away" the flames. 

Like I said, Minato doesn't have control over the interraction between the flames and his flesh. He just can't leave them behind.


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because he doesn't have control over that interraction(amaterasu burning his flesh). Its a chemical reaction. At that point his flesh and Amaterasu can't be seperated, unless he puts out the flames.



It's not regular fire, though. Nagato blasted it off with Shinra Tensei without blasting off all of his skin. Naruto caught it with his v1 cloak and legit threw it aside. That isn't possible with real fire.


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## Saru (Jan 19, 2016)

I think Minato can certainly evade Amaterasu with Hiraishin--as well as A did if not better. But I think he may have to look Itachi in the eye to do so.


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2016)

@saru
Lol why would he 

He a sensor unlike A 

It's ridiculous Amaterasu is being discussed when A who is a lot slower shat on it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's not regular fire, though. Nagato blasted it off with Shinra Tensei without blasting off all of his skin. Naruto caught it with his v1 cloak and legit threw it aside. That isn't possible with real fire.



ST has ninjutsu dispersing properties.

Naruto either preempted it and had his shroud already up or acted so quickly that he was able to push them aside before they latched onto his skin.

Eitherway, these don't change that fact that it isn't within Minato's capability to decide whether he  burns or not. Thus, he can't seperate the flames from his flesh.


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2016)

@grimm
Naruto shroud wasn't up till he moved Amaterasu aside like a bad dish

Lol do u need the scans ?

You mean the flames with physical substance enough to be moved by a shroud like a bad dish 

What happened to the chemical reaction then 

Also why could minato hirashin away from TSB whose effects far surpass Amaterasu ?

Minato has clearly said already anytbinf with physical mass he can choose to take it with him or not . That was the strategy behind exploiting TSB , if he didn't have a say in the matter it's hardly a strategy 

Considering last time he was surprised to know he had the TSB on him . Then we also have hirashin swap not taking TSB with juubito . Despite it being a part of juubito


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## Zenith (Jan 20, 2016)

I'm of the opinion that Itachi wins more times than he loses as he has higher calibre 1HKO's at his disposal like Susano'o and his broken Genjutsu repertoire. Minato on the other hand is a simpler fighter, more linear, and with less offensive diversity since he has a Rasengan and Hiraishin, but nonetheless are deadly, as in literally a strike to the brain case and you're effed all six ways to Sunday


But this is Itachi guys, how do you even surprise someone like him? In truth you really don't, you just have to overwhelm him Madara or Hashirama style. Firepower Minato lacks.


Itachi could also deploy partial Susano'o when in panic mode against an unexpected or fortunate Hiraishin chain but Minato on the other hand doesn't have that luxury of being untouchable, yes he can warp away but Itachi is the King of Kunai and coupled with his crow summons (who can deploy Genjutsu themselves) he can literally feint and feint and feint Minato until a) he Genjutsu's and lands a subsequent fatal strike b) Ninjutsu controls the battlefield by setting all Minato's kunai (which are limited by the way) on fire and having his crows pluck them away


The fight won't really last long as Itachi's stamina is poor but he's not going to be dropping before he takes the opponents life. IMO in a battle of dexterity there's few who can dethrone Itachi, Killer Bee w/ knowledge for example is one of them has he has the Genjutsu free break out pass and has the stamina to wear him down, and more importantly is not as lacking in Ninjutsu as Minato is


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> Naruto shroud wasn't up till he moved Amaterasu aside like a bad dish
> 
> Lol do u need the scans ?
> ...



I already explained this. Do I have to post the same thing twice for you to understand it ?


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## Icegaze (Jan 20, 2016)

kiddo
It's ok *pats head* 

Itachi wins without moving guess you can sleep peacefully now 

Despite all pointing to the contrary 

You'll be alright kid


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> kiddo
> It's ok *pats head*
> 
> Itachi wins without moving guess you can sleep peacefully now
> ...



No man you are probably right. Minato has control over Amaterasu despite not having the jutsu himself.
He can put out the flames with a snap of his fingers. Hell he should be able to blow the flames away with puff.


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## Baroxio (Jan 21, 2016)

I personally don't see Amaterasu as an effective offense against Hirashin, considering that Minato has proven that he can get hit with the flames and teleport out of them (though to be fair, he was prepared for the attack and it initially hit his clothes, doing minimal damage i.e. a surprise strike to the face could likely do more but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt). Where Amaterasu really shines is in altering the battlefield, making it difficult, if not impossible for Minato to warp wherever he chooses, and destroying Minato's limited seal tags. 

Concerning Minato's speed, Itachi was able to deal with Killer Bee in close quarters--this is the same Killer Bee who, 16 years prior, had reacted to Minato's Hirashin blitz not once, but twice. Unless Killer Bee got weaker in the span of 16 years, Itachi should be capable of replicating his feats. 

Personally, I place Minato, Itachi and Killer Bee on the same speed tier, especially taking into account the fact that Killer Bee's long range speed feat against Team Taka (jumping to a nearby mountain mid-hit) is pretty reminiscent of Minato's long range speed feats (saving Kushina and the village-sized Shunshin), while Itachi's short range speed feats against Killer Bee (jumping back 15 meters from an attack while Killer Bee is still in the air from making it and getting behind Killer Bee mid fight) are pretty reminiscent of Minato's short range speed feat (saving baby Naruto from Obito). 

Either way, Itachi is certainly fast enough to contend with the Yellow Flash. How do I see it going down? Well, Minato fans won't like it, but most likely the answer is Genjutsu, GG. The dude engaged in a staring contest with what he thought was Uchiha Madara, the man with the strongest ocular powers. Minato himself has no real feats dealing with genjutsu or users of genjutsu. Of course, when it comes down to it, Itachi and even Sasuke have shown time and again that common counters only rarely work. Just have good chakra control isn't a response when Shi, a medical ninja who is also a genjutsu expert (both things requiring high amounts of chakra control) got taken out easily by a genjutsu from Sasuke (at that point weaker than Itachi at the field). Even general all purpose defenses like partner method aren't totally effective, as even Bee, with a partner constantly inside of him, proved that he wasn't "immune" to genjutsu and could very well be taken out with a quick Tsukyomi (which Naruto even points out later). Hell, even having eyes that see through genjutsu isn't a counter, since both Itachi and Sasuke have used genjutsu on Sharingan wielders before. Every applicable defense against genjutsu has been beaten at one point by genjutsu, or revealed the capability to be beaten with something like Tsukyomi. The closest thing to success is Sage Kabuto's method of fighting with his eyes closed, but that method isn't something available to everyone.

Even if we ignore genjutsu, there's still another avenue Itachi has available to him, especially with full knowledge. That is to say, exploding clone feints. Minato has no real long range jutsu, so when he attacks he has to commit to close combat. If he attacks an exploding clone he isn't prepared for, he could end up in a precarious situation. Considering the fact that Itachi has clone feinted people like Sasuke (with Sharingan) and Sage Kabuto (with Perfect Sage senses) in front of their faces with no cover or anything to hide behind, it's entirely likely that the same thing may happen to Minato. 

As for avenues of Minato winning? He pretty much has to get a lucky hit in, or outlast Itachi. The first is unlikely because this is Itachi we are talking about, and Itachi rarely lets down his guard unless it leads to something he wants. A standard hit is unlikely given their roughly equivalent speed tiers and even if Minato was indeed fast enough to pressure Itachi, there's the fact that his limited offense can do little to actually harm Itachi when Susano comes into play. Outlasting Itachi is a real possibility, but in order to do so he has to play a dangerous game to make sure Itachi keeps up his most draining jutsu. This will require substantial battlefield control to keep Itachi from simply disengaging, but this runs into the aforementioned problem of Amaterasu controlling the battlefield. It also ignores a key component in this battle-Itachi's brain. Itachi's capability for strategy means that repeating actions in the hope of a long term strategy is untenable, as Itachi will quickly see through such plans and initiatie countermeasures to avoid them. As such, simply outlasting Itachi is something easier said than done.

All in all, I believe that Itachi holds the tactical advantage with a versatile set of abilities, all of which are dangerous, but combined can be almost impossible to deal without immense power. When it comes down to it, I believe that Minato with the power of the Kyuubi is stronger than Itachi, but without it's strength and assistance, I don't believe Minato has what it takes to convincingly take Itachi down for the majority of the time.

Of course, who knows, maybe I've overplayed aspects of Itachi's character and underplayed aspects of Minato's. But I do believe what I've mentioned to be the case.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @saru
> Lol why would he
> 
> He a sensor unlike A
> ...



 KCM Naruto couldn't preempt Amaterasu, so why should Minato who has terrible sensing feats?


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## ImSerious (Jan 21, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> I personally don't see Amaterasu as an effective offense against Hirashin, considering that Minato has proven that he can get hit with the flames and teleport out of them (though to be fair, he was prepared for the attack and it initially hit his clothes, doing minimal damage i.e. a surprise strike to the face could likely do more but we'll give him the benefit of the doubt). Where Amaterasu really shines is in altering the battlefield, making it difficult, if not impossible for Minato to warp wherever he chooses, and destroying Minato's limited seal tags.
> 
> Concerning Minato's speed, Itachi was able to deal with Killer Bee in close quarters--this is the same Killer Bee who, 16 years prior, had reacted to Minato's Hirashin blitz not once, but twice. Unless Killer Bee got weaker in the span of 16 years, Itachi should be capable of replicating his feats.
> 
> ...


stopped reading when you said itachi's as fast as minato.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> stopped reading when you said itachi's as fast as minato.



 Same. Itachi should be much faster.


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## Icegaze (Jan 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> KCM Naruto couldn't preempt Amaterasu, so why should Minato who has terrible sensing feats?



 

U mean the guy who could sense Naruto chakra in konoha when Naruto was on the battlefield miles away 

Or do u mean the guy who could tell the Rock nin used clones and its wasn't 19 enemies 

U trying to feign memory loss here ??

Difference between Naruto and minato . Minato can avoid it without moving an inch . Naruto can't , also who says he wanted to dodge it 

Chakra cloak shits on Amaterasu though . As shown when it finally did hit Naruto


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## ImSerious (Jan 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Same. Itachi should be much faster.


fair enough, but it won't matter once minato catches him in a genjutsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> fair enough, but it won't matter once minato catches him in a genjutsu.



 Which only happens in Itachi's Genjutsu.


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## fyhb (Jan 21, 2016)

Baroxio is a lad after me own heart


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## Veracity (Jan 21, 2016)

His is itachi faster than minato...


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## Bookworm (Jan 21, 2016)

Itachi uses Hirashin to beat Minato, after copying it.


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## Zenith (Jan 21, 2016)

what is the general consensus on Amaterasu controlling the battlefield? preempting Minato from safely teleporting anywhere? Think of it this way... any of you played any multiplayer fps? Have you ever played against a team with a good sniper? If so, you'll know what I mean when I say that the presence of the sniper who can 1HKO you across the other side of the map will make you rethink twice what route to take since showing skin means you're dead. So to continue with the analogy, the safe thing to do thing against a good sniper is to stay behind cover _at all times_. But you see, the fact that the enemy has to stay behind cover at all times, means he's already losing the mental game. 

Similarly for Amaterasu, with Itachi's insight, he could strategically blaze some areas and force Minato to play the way he wants. he won't have full control of course, like the soldier behind cover, he can still decide where he wants to take cover, but the thing is, his mobility is limited, and thus, _predictable_

Also to get the sniper, in this case Itachi, the soldier will have to close in the distance, since a snipers weakness is close quarters combat, but the problem is Itachi is a singularity. He can punish enemies in close proximity with either: exploding clones or crow clones (which work as distraction and Genjutsu trigger)


And Itachi's track record of landing Genjutsu in any fight he's ever been (except against Kabuto perhaps?... discounting Izanami) really translates into Minato being either 1HKO'd by Tsukuyomi or distracted enough by a lesser technique long enough to be killed by one of Itachi's finishers.


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## ImSerious (Jan 22, 2016)

Minato doesn't give a darn about Amaterasu, how are you still not getting this?

It's like saying Neo from the matrix gives a fuck about bullets.


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## Zenith (Jan 22, 2016)

sorry

wasn't aware of that


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## ImSerious (Jan 22, 2016)

it's okay


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## fyhb (Jan 23, 2016)

Minato destroys Itachi enough is said..


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## Ghoztly (Jan 23, 2016)

This goes either way IMO which is why it's never come to a real conclusion and will forever be debated. These two in the same discussion never ends well lol.

Comes down to Minato being able to kill Itachi fast and make sure he's dead, because if he doesn't, Itachi will kill him. That simple.

Depends on the situation for me.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 6, 2016)

Honestly, this is the type of debate that will never end. It is a good debate about two characters who are about on par with one another who both have ways of easily one-shotting the other. So while I lean more towards Minato, Itachi himself has a good chance too. But I believe Minato would win due to the speed and stamina advantages that he has over Itachi. 

Also, as for those talking about the whole Minato, A, and Killer B instance and using that as proof for Itachi's speed being close to Minato's because Itachi could engage in taijutsu with Killer B. That isn't true, Minato and A exchanged words, A charged at Minato at full speed with killing intent and Minato reacted to it and teleported behind him. Right afterwards, Killer B struck at A to knock his brother out of the way and Minato took this time to place his FTG tag on B's tail without him noticing it. Then the horn was sounded and it was time to retreat, then A attacks Minato again and Minato appears behind Killer B with him having one his swords ready to stab Minato. While that is impressive, that is definitely not enough to say that he is in the same speed tier as Minato especially when after the horn was sounded Minato no longer had any intent on actually harming them. Itachi didn't even fight against B in taijutsu, he used ninjutsu, shurikenjutsu, and genjutsu back to back to disorient B at close range.


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