# JJBAverse vs. Umineko verse



## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

Restrictions:

Bohemian Rhapsody is banned, just because that ability is so fucking crazy that attempting to logically quantify its capabilities will lead to a shitstorm

No bullshit debates about whether Creators are really omnipotent or not, go by feats

Otherwise, anything goes.


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## KaiserWombat (Jan 29, 2011)

Do White Snake, C-Moon and Stairway to Heaven count as seperate "entities", or does Pucci only have one to use in this scenario?

Gold Experience Requiem is obviously going to be the heavy-hitter here: multiversal beings or universal+ anti-casuality beings are neccessary to beat him from what his feats show

Any weakness to time-manipulation is also going to be a MAJOR bitch here, naturally


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## Big Bοss (Jan 29, 2011)

Don't see them getting past GER.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

KaiserWombat said:


> Do White Snake, C-Moon and Stairway to Heaven count as seperate "entities"



Yes

**


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## KaiserWombat (Jan 29, 2011)

Oho, fun fun fuuuuuun

How fast are the witches? Because if they're not FTL, the typical StH and GER response may not be necessary.


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2011)

High ranking Witches and especially Witches are non-corporeal though and live in their separate worlds. That's a pretty tough barrier to beat.


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## Francesco. (Jan 29, 2011)

GER solos...


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Not interested to say who wins but here you have some feats from episode 8



> LambdaDelta vs. Bernkastel
> - Flashes of different colors arise when Bern arrives at the scene. Candies explode everywhere. The candy explodes into bullet-like projectiles and attack the cats, ripping them apart. Bern evades. Lambda and Bern stand face to face.
> - Bern calls her an old friend, but would relish in tearing Lambda apart. She orders the cats to attack. The cats combine into one and try to devour Lambda. The two sweet talk each other as they fight.
> - Lambda fires off multiple shots as the cats engulf her. The shots explode and collapse into the giant cat forming a singularity, black hole type thing in the palm of Lambda's hand. The cats are crushed into nothing. Bern stands alone.
> ...





*Edit: when you as the gameplayer activate "execute" on Bernkastel  this is what happens:*





> Lambdadelta used to be known as the most powerful witch in the universe, but was defeated by Bernkastel (whom she cares for but hides her feelings) in "another game". She is also known as the Witch of the Absolute and her "magic of certainty" allows her to kill anyone with an absolute result. Her goal is to "trap" Bernkastel by making the game between Battler Ushiromiya and Beatrice last for eternity, thus forever involving Bernkastel in the game. She has lived for a thousand years. As a witch, she embodies the concept that "hard-workers are rewarded", and is very much respected even by human beings. She doesn't flee from the human concept of a witch; hence, the power of hers, which is respected by human beings, is immeasurable. However, she is whimsical about whose efforts she will reward and, in many situations, the person who can please her more will be able to receive her smile. Her tremendous and swiftly fierce power makes any kind of witch surrender in a moment. However, she seems to be reckless and it was thoroughly read by Bernkastel.



Both LamdaDelta and Bernkastel can time stop,reality warp,create universes or destroy them, can virtually grant any wish, are immortal (it takes hax to kill them), time loop,  travel to other universes, Bern can enter to a dark universe where she can gather with easy intel about his enemies, resurrect others etc.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

^Featherine is even much more powerful than Bernkastel and Lamdadelta put together

Featherine has the ability to "control events" as she wishes



> - Lambda begins to summon a ton of energy around her. Featherine uses a time stop spell. She rejects this screenplay. She summons down the script of this scene and looks at the part where Lambda summons energy. She rewrites the entire scene. She puts a part where Lambda gets nailed on a bookshelf, her limbs get torn apart, she gets launched into the darkness and disappears. She apologizes for writing such a death scene and says she will fix it in the future.
> - Time restarts. Lambda gets nailed on a bookshelf and is shocked. Lambda begins to bleed from her mouth and wounds. She asks her why she won't just kill her outright.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

> "Tell me. What is your true wish? What is your predestination you say you'll definitely grant...?"
> " I will become a god."
> 
> 
> ...




Lamdadelta is even capable of granting wishes like turning humans into gods.

This is what Lamdadelta commented about God-Creator



> ...... Naturally, there's the danger that that parasol might break and she might fall to hell just like that.
> Because of that recklessness, ...with the impulsiveness of youth, the despise for the likes of the humans, ....... and with the interest for how far this witch would reach, I started to throw light on a world yet unknown to me and felt honoured to have a black tea I never tasted smell sweet.
> This is my pet view, though.
> It can explain that all the beings are placed somewhere between the two extremes, the side who is tossed about by fate and the side who creates fate.
> ...




Some about Siesta Sisters


> Siesta 410
> Siesta 45
> 
> The Siesta Sister Imperial Guard Corps are bunny-girl furniture that can be summoned by ones with a substantial amount of summoning skill. Their main weapon is a bow of light that shoots a beam that can kill a target instantly, the only exception being Battler or the Territory Lord. The banners they have on their left arms resembles the flag for Iceland, even though their firing codes are written in Greek.
> -They can use light speed ammo.




Even if  some characters are FTL  they are not tanking the arrows.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> *Edit: when you as the gameplayer activate "execute" on Bernkastel  this is what happens:*



That's.... really not a problem for GER. "Never-ending is an ending" and all.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> That's.... really not a problem for GER. "Never-ending is an ending" and all.



However the voyagers are as well non corporeal beings.
In Umineko  it is clearly stated that physical weapons and such is useless against the witches. 

It requires "conceptual" damage. And that is the goal in the series "Battler needs to kill Beatrice in a conceptual level". 

There is also this Character Dlanor A Knox who holds swords that deal conceptual damage, can negate concepts and events not allowing them to exist even in the future
"Dlanor" is Bernkastel's piece and the powers of Dlanor would not represent a trouble to her Master

Bernkastel can as well cause conceptual damage and erase an individual from entire existence.

Also you forget that  GER  "death loop" is only effective if  his enemy can die.

Crimson King is a mortal human. Whereas Bernkastel and Lamdadelta   have at least: 

Immortality  1: Longevity
Immortality 3: via regeneration.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

Um, no, it still puts them in a loop forever.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Um, no, it still puts them in a loop forever.



"It resets  their death " 

It is clearly stated.  

JJBA is overall my favorite manga and I would not say that GER would loop for the rest of eternity someone who is immortal. 
GER has universal capability of reseting his foe's  actions to zero. 

But if his foe can not die his death can not be rested to zero, since  "death" does not exist for said character

i.e. Crimson King  "died" and then his death was reseted and appeared in a different scenario where "he died again". Because he is a mortal human who can die by things such as "being smashed by a car"


But lets suppose that a "Randome immortal character" that can not die by any physical means and whatever receives a hit of GER".


Said character would not end in an eternal "death loop" because "being smashed by a car"  or that kind of stuff would no be enough to kill him for good.


And besides that Voyagers can travel through time and space and to other universes. 


i.e. In epsiode  3 Bernkastel traveled to several different universes and time traveled to the future "to find the ideal piece".


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## Xelloss (Jan 29, 2011)

I was under the imPression we still say anything universal+ would be to much for GER


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

No, they would be constantly put in a loop and never be able to finish any of their actions. That's how it works.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

took a hit from a Pacifista's laser.

^And if said character can not die?

Lets say Thanos


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

Then they're still trapped in the loop... this isn't complicated.


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## Weather (Jan 29, 2011)

> Then they're still trapped in the loop... this isn't complicated.



But wouldn't multiversal travel be enough to escape that loop?

Just asking.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Then they're still trapped in the loop... this isn't complicated.



And if Said character  can time-space-reality warp and travel at free will to other universes or to the future?


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Then they're still trapped in the loop... this isn't complicated.


Too bad, the events of Higurashi were just exactly like that.
Guess what happened? Bernkastel solved it in the end and saved everyone.

I don't like how the arguments about GER always involve No Limits Fallacies.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Not to mention that Bernkastel is the witch of Miracles  because she can control causuality


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2011)

...not probability?
I mean her ability is in short to cause anything that isn't absolutely impossible to happen.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> ...not probability?
> I mean her ability is in short to cause anything that isn't absolutely impossible to happen.



Oh sorry I got confused. A lapsus of stupidity I guess.

Well 

This is a good summary 

"The Witch of Miracles who has lived a thousand years. It is said that she lives in a world where concepts like fate and possibility can be visualized. She can give birth to all kinds of miracles with her immense power but, in compensation for that, her heart ends up breaking a bit. She also appreciates the aestheticism in the fate of humans, and sometimes, she interferes. In other words, sometimes she's you; and she's also your only friend. The things she like are wine and spicy things. The things she hates are boredom and people who don't learn. She can use "magic of miracles" to reset a bad situation, as long as the chance of it becoming favourable is not zero. She has experienced having been played with and imprisoned in a cruel fate in the past, when she was a human being. Hence, it seems she can't ignore the fate of those in same circumstances. In theory, she is the witch with the strongest power, but that is actually not realistic, like folding a piece of paper a hundred times so that it'll reach the moon. And she folded it a hundred times."



^She has already dealt with similar stuff  to GER


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

Weather said:


> But wouldn't multiversal travel be enough to escape that loop?
> 
> Just asking.





MichaelUN89 said:


> And if Said character  can time-space-reality warp and travel at free will to other universes or to the future?



No, because even if they thought of doing that the action would never initialize.




MichaelUN89 said:


> Oh sorry I got confused. A lapsus of stupidity I guess.
> 
> Well
> 
> ...



That just disproves your own point because the chance of escaping from GER is 0.


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## willyvereb (Jan 29, 2011)

Seriously Mike...
Bernkestel had escaped from an infinite loop in the past. What more she can travel in time ,hop between dimensions, doesn't even have a physical body and overall is an universal+ entity.
You're beating the dead horse here...


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## God (Jan 29, 2011)

Mike fanboying like hell


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

What part of "unable to complete actions" don't you get? They are all reset to 0.


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## Xelloss (Jan 29, 2011)

So a Z with 2 wings would be stopped by GER?


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## Endless Mike (Jan 29, 2011)

Xelloss said:


> So a Z with 2 wings would be stopped by GER?



What does that have to do with this topic?


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

KaiserWombat said:


> Oho, fun fun fuuuuuun
> 
> How fast are the witches? Because if they're not FTL, the typical StH and GER response may not be necessary.



I hope you realize technically GER doesn't have any speed since it can't be quantified by time.


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## Xelloss (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> What does that have to do with this topic?



Nothing I am just asking  a question, I can ask it on another place but why repeat myself if you are already here


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> "It resets  their death "



That is not how GER's power works. It places their actions at the infinite value away from zero.

Thus it repeats in a different manner, and if it helps, Diavolo was apparently "moved from this reality" according to Giorno when he was asked where Diavolo was sent.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> No, because even if they thought of doing that the action would never initialize.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) I thought you said that Odin could  escape from GER. 
2) Bernkastel has already  dealt with "time loop, reset event and suffering her death again and again".  Basically almost the same shit that  GER would do.
3) No limit fallacy unless you want to say that a Cube level being  with time-space reality warp can not deal with it.
4) You once said that Dark Schneider would be immunte to GER. Therefore the chances of escaping from GER are not zero. 
5) Did I already mention that Bern has already dealt with something very alike to GER?  Meaning her chances are not zero?
6) Has not it been stated that universal+ beings with high reality-time-space warp  can deal with it?


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## God (Jan 29, 2011)

Never thought I'd see EM using fanboy no-limits fallacies and not even bothering to debunk arguments


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> 1) I thought you said that Odin could  escape from GER.
> 2) Bernkastel has already  dealt with "time loop, reset event and suffering her death again and again".  Basically almost the same shit that  GER would do.
> 3) No limit fallacy unless you want to say that a Cube level being  with time-space reality warp can not deal with it.
> 4) You once said that Dark Schneider would be immunte to GER. Therefore the chance of escaping from GER are not zero.
> ...



You literally have no idea how GER works.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

Fang said:


> You literally have no idea how GER works.



Hey I know how it works and I am the one who posted a scan.

"It can turn *opponents actions to zero* ... etc"

Avalon


Next?


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

No, you don't. Seeing as you kept spouting it just resets "time" when it isn't even a temporal powered Stand. Don't play semantic games here.

Its ability worked when time and space were erased, on a universal level, and the main universe, to say was skipped forward in time. It reset that action, while it was occuring, when GER technically did not exist. It even bypasses casuality completely, including both cause and effect.

Its ability is moving away the target from the value of zero infinitely. This worked on time, this worked on space, this worked from a locked off dimension, in technical temporal universe, away from the main one.

Umineko is going to get sodomized by GER. Unless they have the ability to retroactively stop from having their will, their life, their existence, from being put in the value of zero. And the broken part is even if they take action, it will be as if they never did.

Hence why Giorno says, " You can never take action against GER. ", because it'll stop you even if you do attempt or pull it off in the first place. I know more about JJBA, by a lot, than you.


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## zenieth (Jan 29, 2011)

Also the higurashi situation is nothing like GER's death loop. There's also the fact that strikes by it don't just affect life, they also affect will.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)




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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 29, 2011)

How does the death loop work? I'd imagine there would have to be a delay involved for the Umineko cast to do anything.


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## Weather (Jan 29, 2011)

Just a question.

Can he affect another universe, I mean can he affect an universe from another one?
While GER range is listed as infinite does that mean he has Multiversal range?

Because nothing stops the witches from attacking from another universe.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

...

There is no delay.

Your talking about a Stand that operated when time and space literally didn't not exist.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 29, 2011)

Fang said:


> ...
> 
> There is no delay.
> 
> Your talking about a Stand that operated when time and space literally didn't not exist.



So if GER punches the opponent's head off, do things immediately and endlessly reset back to the opponent's head being punched off? I'm trying to visualize the actual effect here.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

Unknown. But it clearly doesn't have to use physical attacks or any attacks or abilities in general to use its ability.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 29, 2011)

Fang said:


> Unknown. But it clearly doesn't have to use physical attacks or any attacks or abilities in general to use its ability.



I see. When I think 'death loop' I think of continuous rewinding back to the point of death. Similar to watching a video on Youtube or something where someone dies, and then continuously going back to that moment in the video to see it happen over and over again. There's no way to fight back against that kind of loop, or at least no way to do it using the methods that have been suggested by the Umineko side.


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## Big Bοss (Jan 29, 2011)

> While GER range is listed as infinite does that mean he has Multiversal range?



GER doesn't have feats of Multiversal range.


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## zenieth (Jan 29, 2011)

The death loop works like this. GER kills you. Initially you don't know this and try to make your escape, all of a sudden another event kills you. You wake up somewhere completely different, near instantly you're killed again. No time to plot, no course of action to figure out how you die, they're all different.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

Death loop is automatic and claimed to be an entirely separate "reality" that GER manipulates or creates. The target or victim's will, powers and abilities, life, and existence is completely removed.

Hence why it appeared GER didn't even appear to actually do anything, and technically didn't, even though it returned all the actions and events back to their origin point just to show that King Crimson was powerless before it when Diavolo attacked.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jan 29, 2011)

Fang said:


> Death loop is automatic and claimed to be an entirely separate "reality" that GER manipulates or creates. The target or victim's will, powers and abilities, life, and existence is completely removed.
> 
> Hence why it appeared GER didn't even appear to actually do anything, and technically didn't, even though it returned all the actions and events back to their origin point just to show that King Crimson was powerless before it when Diavolo attacked.





zenieth said:


> The death loop works like this. GER kills you. Initially you don't know this and try to make your escape, all of a sudden another event kills you. You wake up somewhere completely different, near instantly you're killed again. No time to plot, no course of action to figure out how you die, they're all different.



Then yeah, comparing it to Higurashi is stupid.


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## Rashou (Jan 29, 2011)

I know Jack about Umineko, but GER doesn't void (or reset) all actions indiscriminately. Either it (or Giorno) chooses what to "set to 0" and that's it. When Diavolo was caught in the death loop he could still perform actions, like running out into traffic and talking. If a character can reverse time or traverse the multiverse, they should be able to do it eventually. They may get caught by death before they get the chance in some cases, but you don't instantly die in every loop- then there'd be no point in having a loop, really. In Diavolo's case, his ability's pretty useless cause he can just move forward, but unless GER/Giorno micromanages the entirety of Umineko's time manipulators, they may have a chance.


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## zenieth (Jan 29, 2011)

Reversing time isn't going to work.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

That's not what happened at all. Everything that transpired to Diavolo after his death and the start of death loop was created by GER, he did not perform any actions, he was fated to repeatedly to repeat whatever he did in those scenarios.

And time reversing isn't going to do shit against GER.


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## Rashou (Jan 29, 2011)

He was fated to endlessly die. Where are you getting that his actions were all endlessly manipulated? When has GER voided time reversal? If you go back to before you were put into its death loop then the only thing it can do is start another loop. Which would make the person who turns back time turn back time again, and we have another unending loop that's less amusing.


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## zenieth (Jan 29, 2011)

How do you go back to before you were placed in a death loop if the death loop itself doesn't exist in the same realm of reality?


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

Rashou said:


> He was fated to endlessly die. Where are you getting that his actions were all endlessly manipulated?



GER's powers worked when time was erased, the effect of not being able to take action for King Crimson and Diavolo involved activating in erased time, while the universe was being fast-forwarded, reversing all those actions, which includes rewinding time.

Time manipulation won't do shit: time stopping, time reversing, time erasing, time skipping/forwarding, time looping/distorting.



> When has GER voided time reversal? If you go back to before you were put into its death loop then the only thing it can do is start another loop.



GER essentially did reverse all the actions, while time was erased. Your argument is baseless and senseless.



> *snip*



No, laymen's terms: The death loop is infinite. It completely bypasses cause and effect as well causality itself, you can't even take will or action in the first place, so your abilities won't matter and even if you could they would be nullified retroactively so you would never do anything in retrospect, regardless of what you want to do.


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## Rashou (Jan 29, 2011)

You'd need to be able to traverse the multiverse too and find your original timespace (which would actually make traveling back in time a moot point if you could just hop universes) to do this definitively, but _theoretically_ you'd be able to do it by going back to the point in time where the divergent reality was connected to the original reality, and then just keep going back to before that. No matter how fast it happens at _some_ point in time of the new reality (GER's death loop) time traveler X was placed in the death loop. Time Traveler X reverses time to this point, and then goes another step back to where they weren't there. 

I tried to explain that as clearly as possible. No idea if you could actually do that, but the theory seems solid.



Fang said:


> GER's powers worked when time was erased, the effect of not being able to take action for King Crimson and Diavolo involved activating in erased time, while the universe was being fast-forwarded, reversing all those actions, which includes rewinding time.
> 
> Time manipulation won't do shit: time stopping, time reversing, time erasing, time skipping/forwarding, time looping/distorting.
> 
> ...


It reversed all actions when time was erased because it wanted to. If it literally reversed everything that ever happened to Diavolo in the death loop then, again, he would not have been able to walk around. If my argument is baseless and senseless then just prove it wrong.


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## Fang (Jan 29, 2011)

Rashou said:


> *snip*



Your repeating yourself ad naseum now.



> I tried to explain that as clearly as possible. No idea if you could actually do that, but the theory seems solid.



Its not, because they have no will or ability to take action against that power, regardless of whatever power they have in the first place once GER activates its ability.



> It reversed all actions when time was erased because it wanted to.



Yes, so far correct.



> If it literally reversed everything that ever happened to Diavolo in the death loop then, again, he would not have been able to walk around.



" Never ending is never ending! " - Giorno Giovanna on Diavolo.

It is infinite and repeats, I've said this several times already.

Diavolo walking around was entirely part of the endless scenarios befalling him once the death loop started, he was totally at the mercy and will of its powers, nothing he did was autonomous. 

Why do you think he never was capable of summoning his Stand or defending himself from a deranged hobo, or seeing the future despite King Crimson's precognition abilities telling him he would splatter Giorno's brains right before GER activated and showed off its powers?



> If my argument is baseless and senseless then just prove it wrong.



It is baseless because your regurgitating the same nonsensical claims that's been debunked ages ago about GER's feats and powers.


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 29, 2011)

zenieth said:


> The death loop works like this. *GER kills you. *Initially you don't know this and try to make your escape, all of a sudden another event kills you. You wake up somewhere completely different, near instantly you're killed again. No time to plot, no course of action to figure out how you die, they're all different.



My point being that GER would not be able to kill someone like Thanos. Hence Thanos would not suffer  his death again and again. 

It is a little bit different but Beatrice can do something similar.

She kills you and she can reset back to zero your death. And reset-repeat certain events without time looping. At the end of episode one "she reseted the evens of the death of Eva Ushiromiya". She performed this in front of Battler by Killing her again and again "without creating time loops" or anything alike.

Lamda gave to Beatrice her powers. 

Mike once stated that GER would not be effective against Dark Schneider due to dispel bound. 

Battler can use a defense known as Endless 9 that is a god level defense that was stated to prevent any kind of damage. It tanked like nothing the arrows of the siesta sisters that supposedly can cause conceptual damage.

-shrugs-

Whatever. Do as you wish.


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## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

Your red herring makes no sense because Beatrice is nothing like or similar to Thanos and the latter had his immortality created by the Abstract herself.

As for DS vs GER, without any bullshit or nerfs removed, unless things changed, using Judas Pain literally destroys DS' soul the more he uses it. Stop trying to deflect from this thread.

There was never a clear consensus with GER vs Odin (simply because it doesn't have the offensive power to put him down) or GER vs DS but it is with this.


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## Gilgamesh (Jan 30, 2011)

GER, King Crimson, STH would be too much for Umineko


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## MichaelUN89 (Jan 30, 2011)

Fang said:


> Your red herring makes no sense because Beatrice is nothing like or similar to Thanos and the latter had his immortality created by the Abstract herself.



I was  not talking about Beatrice Immortality. 

It was an example.


However like I already said Bern and Lamdadelta have at least immortality type 1 and 3. And are incorporeal beings...




> GER, King Crimson, STH would be too much for Umineko







You know?  JJBA is my favorite  manga. But you... Never mind.


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## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

You know I've said it before but you clearly demonstrate a lack of proper knowledge on GER feats.

Good for you that think otherwise, I don't really care.


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## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

Fang said:


> Your repeating yourself ad naseum now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Did Diavolo try to summon his stand? Yes, in some scenarios he was incapable of doing anything, suggesting GER froze his actions there. But GER's ability is not to indiscriminately return everything that happens to those trapped in its loops to zero. If you're saying he wasn't walking around of his own free will, prove it. Otherwise, there's nothing baseless about my argument.


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## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

Rashou said:


> *snip*



The burden of proof is on you, not me. He has always used his Stand when he's been in danger or feels threatened or lashes out, use your common sense and actual logic, in fact, have you actually read Part 5? Otherwise, concession accepted.

Anyway, stop repeating yourself and trying to shift the burden of proof on me, the positive is on you to back your claim that he was doing things that he was clearly implicated not to be able to do and did not.


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## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

Fang said:


> The burden of proof is on you, not me. He has always used his Stand when he's been in danger or feels threatened or lashes out, use your common sense and actual logic, in fact, have you actually read Part 5? Otherwise, concession accepted.
> 
> Anyway, stop repeating yourself and trying to shift the burden of proof on me, the positive is on you to back your claim that he was doing things that he was clearly implicated not to be able to do and did not.



No, the burden of proof is on you. You're positively disbelieving about the autonomy of his actions and his ability to use his stand. But even so, proof is in the manga itself that he could walk on his own- he moves about like normal, and only asks where he is. He doesn't mention anything about his legs moving on their own or anything of the sort, despite clearly noting in an earlier death when he couldn't move. 

I have no idea whose concession you are accepting, but congrats.


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## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

Rashou said:


> No, the burden of proof is on you.



Nope, but continue to make hilarious rationalizations to try and justify otherwise, it amuses me a lot; still waiting for an actual rebuttal about him being incapable of using his Stand and powers. I'm not the one making unfounded claims that contradict the manga with pure speculation.




> You're positively disbelieving about the autonomy of his actions and his ability to use his stand.



Yeah sure was obvious when he didn't use King Crimson and got killed by a normal fucking human in an alternate reality which GER created and powered. 

Still unfounded and wrong.



> *snip*



He comments on it himself before the first death in the death loop. He's doomed to suffer and repeat actions leading to loop of continually more gruesome and unavoidable deaths and is totally powerless to stop it.






And very clearly the ability worked on everyone and their actions too, cute Mista's bullets and firing of his gun returning, so again wrong on that too.



> I have no idea whose concession you are accepting, but congrats.



Cool story bro.


----------



## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

> It is that in both cases the burden of proof is not on the person making the positive claim. Now, by "positive" claim I mean any truth claim, such as “X is true” or “X is false.” Notice that saying something is false is also a positive truth claim: you are claiming that the assertion “X is false” is a true statement *(i.e., you positively disbelieve X)*. For example, the claim “leprechauns do exist” is just as positive a claim as is “leprechauns do not exist.” Each is a claim to truth, and the burden of proof properly lies with the person making either claim.


From 

As for the rest... 

1. GER chooses what actions it voids. If Diavolo couldn't use his stand (I agree he probably couldn't just pointing out there's nothing explicitly stating this) then GER didn't want him to use his stand. That doesn't mean that _every single action_ is _automatically voided_ by the stand. This is clearly not the case. Thanks for pointing out that GER does the resets though, couldn't remember if that was in its monologue or Giorno's.

2. GER's ability is hyperbole. It has never voided the ability of a person who could create purple widgets, for one. It's never even encountered millions of other abilities, of which time reversal is one. Your argument against time reversal is obviously not from supporting evidence, so why do you think it would be able to void time reversal when it has never done so?


----------



## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

> The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges."[1] This is a statement of a version of the presumption of innocence that underpins the assessment of evidence in some legal systems, and is not a general statement of when one takes on the burden of proof. The burden of proof tends to lie with anyone who is arguing against received wisdom, but does not always, as sometimes the consequences of accepting a statement or the ease of gathering evidence in its defense might alter the burden of proof its proponents shoulder. The burden may also be assigned institutionally.



Nope.

And attempting to deflect with further nonsensical hypothetical suppositions isn't helping you either.


----------



## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

Fang said:


> The burden of proof is often associated with the Latin maxim semper necessitas probandi incumbit ei qui agit, the best translation of which seems to be: "*the necessity of proof always lies with the person who lays charges.*"[1] This is a statement of a version of the presumption of innocence that underpins the assessment of evidence in some legal systems, and is not a general statement of when one takes on the burden of proof. *The burden of proof tends to lie with anyone who is arguing against received wisdom,* but does not always, as sometimes the consequences of accepting a statement or the ease of gathering evidence in its defense might alter the burden of proof its proponents shoulder. The burden may also be assigned institutionally. .



You laid the "charges". You're stating that Diavolo couldn't move on his own. You have to prove that. Especially since it's common sense- or received wisdom- that people generally move of their own accord.



> And attempting to deflect with further nonsensical hypothetical suppositions isn't helping you either.


So you're not going to counter my arguments then?


----------



## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

Rashou said:


> You laid the "charges". You're stating that Diavolo couldn't move on his own. You have to prove that. Especially since it's common sense- or received wisdom- that people generally move of their own accord.



Received wisdom in this case being Diavolo being unable to take any action or ability against the death loop as its all of GER's offensive ability and Giorno himself never said anything as he knew nothing about, which the Stand itself stated and we are shown.

Wrong.



> So you're not going to counter my arguments then?



Already have repeatedly, not going to repeat it ad naseum ad infinitum anymore. You can feel free to repeat yourself more, doesn't change the course of this thread or the fact of the matter objectively to anyone.


----------



## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

You realize that if I'm repeating my arguments and you're repeating your arguments then we're *both* arguing ad nauseum? 

But anyway, back to the thread if you're done. Unless you want do another post full of unnecessarily snarky comments and single word rebuttals. My suggestion for your next one: "Unendearing." Give it a try.


----------



## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

Rashou said:


> You realize that if I'm repeating my arguments and you're repeating your arguments then we're *both* arguing ad nauseum?



What part of the second half of my last post didn't make this obvious that I was aware of this? 



> But anyway, back to the thread if you're done. Unless you want do another post full of unnecessarily snarky comments and single word rebuttals.



Is this another repeated and silly attempt at deflection for being called out on your half-truths, fallacies, and all around being wrong consistently with JJBA?

Cool story bro, redux. 



> My suggestion for your next one: "Unendearing." Give it a try.



Is this suppose to be sneaky ad hominem by you? I'll say its pretty mediocre.


----------



## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

Not just sneaky ad hominem, but _ninja_ ad hominem. Outside of the debate. Yeah, it's that good.

No but seriously we shouldn't derail this any more.


----------



## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

That's fine with me.


----------



## Rashou (Jan 30, 2011)

Peace. 10char


----------



## Red (Jan 30, 2011)

GER hasn't shown to work on multiversal beings above probability space, there's no reason to think Feathrine, Bernkestal, Lambdelta or anybody in any of the higher dimensions blink it out of existence. Umineko stomps utterly.


Fang said:


> Its ability is moving away the target from the value of zero infinitely. This worked on time, this worked on space, this worked from a locked off dimension, in technical temporal universe, away from the main one.


And Beatrice power works by expanding whatever it is she wants towards infinite. Perfect counter.


----------



## Schneider (Jan 30, 2011)

zenieth said:


> The death loop works like this. *GER kills you*. Initially you don't know this and try to make your escape, all of a sudden another event kills you. You wake up somewhere completely different, near instantly you're killed again. No time to plot, no course of action to figure out how you die, they're all different.



there was no proof that ger killed diavolo. all we have is trish insisting he's alive and gio's answer:

Link removed


----------



## neodragzero (Jan 30, 2011)

Red said:


> GER hasn't shown to work on multiversal beings above probability space, there's no reason to think Feathrine, Bernkestal, Lambdelta or anybody in any of the higher dimensions blink it out of existence. Umineko stomps utterly.


Above probability space? As explained, what you're suggesting is still an action that can be negated by something that even works while time is manipulated to not exist. That seems to be the argument at least.


> And Beatrice power works by expanding whatever it is she wants towards infinite. Perfect counter.


Actually, it's not. The point is to reduce the action to the negative opposite of zero. This is done even when there's time to even activate this negation. We're talking about a level of speed that can't be quantified by time that automatically reduces your action to zero and leaves you stuck with their level of ability. Even will is affected. Has Beatrice used her ability while time itself doesn't exist?


----------



## Red (Jan 30, 2011)

neodragzero said:


> Above probability space?


 Another name for the fifth dimension.



> As explained, what you're suggesting is still an action that can be negated...


Not if the user is in a higher plane of existence.



> something that even works while time is manipulated to not exist. That seems to be the argument at least.


Irrelevant detail.



> Actually, it's not. The point is to reduce the action to the negative opposite of zero.


Actually, it is. The point is Beato expands the action towards the positive end of infinity.





> Has Beatrice used her ability while time itself doesn't exist?


No.

My argument is that GER's powers have never been shown to work on extra-dimensional beings outside his dimension. On panel showings has it working on time, space, and a timeless/non-spatial dimension but not on anything above it. And the mechanics behind the move doesn't imply it can work on being on higher levels. Assuming it does is a . 

Lambda, Bernkestal, Feathrine and Creator Gods are all above the fifth dimension and will attack from their higher plane of existence. Beatrice and Battler are also higher level beings, they exist on a plane higher than the standard four (time and space) but still below probability space and they attack from that plane. All their battles are done in that plane and the effects are then felt on the lower plane.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 30, 2011)

Just to note:
Lambdadelta has the power to kill anybody with absolute certainity. She used this ability in Higurashi to repeatedly kill Rika and led the Higurashi cast to their doom. Always. Over and over for god knows how many times. Yet Bernkastel solved the situation in the end thus escaped this loop.
I have little reason to believe she can't do the same with GER. Not to mention that GER must first have to hit her. She has no physical body and resides in a different plane to begin with.

Although I otherwise don't care much who wins. Really, Umineko was never really about powerlevels. It's a mystery/detective novel with growing supernatural background and horror parts. Hell, few chapters back there were debates on whether magic is real in Umineko or not(anti-fantasy and anti-mystery parties). Calling it "Touhou with horror" is simply ignorance and obvious disregard of what Umineko is really about(no, not the lolis).


----------



## Fang (Jan 30, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> I have little reason to believe she can't do the same with GER. Not to mention that GER must first have to hit her. She has no physical body and resides in a different plane to begin with.



Literally none of what you said is going to bother GER. A Stand that literally nullified a technique while it didn't exist retroactively and having no tangible body means nothing to it.


----------



## Red (Jan 30, 2011)

Fang said:


> Literally none of what you said is going to bother GER. *A Stand that literally nullified a technique while it didn't exist retroactively and having no tangible body means nothing to it.*


Irrelevant detail. Provide links of the stand working on multi-dimensional, multiversal beings or concede.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Jan 30, 2011)

I'm just waiting until somebody calls Josuke's hair a piece of shit or gay

_Then_ it's endgame.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 31, 2011)

Umineko is nowhere near as powerful as its fandom thinks it is


----------



## Francesco. (Jan 31, 2011)

Rohan would be a complete bitch for the Umineko.

'Cannot attack any JJBA characters.'


----------



## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jan 31, 2011)

any high tier reality warper can undo rohan kishibes power though


----------



## Red (Jan 31, 2011)

Raptor Diego said:


> Umineko is nowhere near as powerful as its fandom thinks it is


And you made a sweeping statement with nothing to back it up.


----------



## Weather (Jan 31, 2011)

Raptor Diego said:


> Umineko is nowhere near as powerful as its fandom thinks it is



How so? We have 2 confirmed Universal beings and 1 who according to one of those universals is waaay above them.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 31, 2011)

Shh, why did you fall for that, Weather? 
It was a weak attempt at trolling from the guy.
#1 rule of forums: Don't feed trolls.


----------



## Weather (Jan 31, 2011)

Agh... Didn't though that one.

Sorry.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Jan 31, 2011)

Character statements mean jack shit

Which most Umineko fans seem to fall back on since they have nothing else


----------



## Weather (Jan 31, 2011)

I know I should not do this...

But ahhh what the hell 



Directly from the novel...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 31, 2011)

So it looks like JJBA wins then


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Weather said:


> How so? We have 2 confirmed Universal beings and 1 who according to one of those universals is waaay above them.



So?

Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
The World
Star Platinum
Killer Queen - Another One Bites The Dust
King Crimson/Epitaph
Crazy Diamond
Gold Experience/Gold Experience Requiem
Boheminan Rhapsody
Stairway to Heaven/Made in Heaven
Heaven's Door
White Snakes/C-Moon

Even discounting all that, Pucci says there is a God.

See what I did there?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 31, 2011)

Excuse me but it looks more like that both sides are plain disagreeing.
I wouldn't call this a win for either party, neither a proper debate.

@Fang: Uminekoverse has the Creator confirmed as well. Although we have no freakin' idea of its exact power. Still high above the rest.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Again, I ask so what?

Its already been confirmed GER alone would sweep through Umineko.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 31, 2011)

Based on what?
Just because Diavolo couldn't escape the loop it doesn't mean no one can. Again a No Limits Fallacy claim.


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> So?
> 
> Dirty Deeds Done Dirt Cheap
> The World
> ...





That was  random... 


What weather said is right. Bernkastel and Lamdadelta are universe reality warpers.  Featherin is stronger than both. And it is stated by the author that "The Creator" is God and is  the most powerful entity in Umineko.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Boheminan Rhapsody



If you check the OP, I banned that.

I could unban it, but IMO that ability is just too fucking crazy to debate logically.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> That was  random...



No it wasn't.



> What weather said is right. Bernkastel and Lamdadelta are universe reality warpers.  Featherin is stronger than both. And it is stated by the author that "The Creator" is God and is  the most powerful entity in Umineko.



So what? Pucci, a man who knows how powerful and broken his Stand is also mentioned a God existing as well, with a capital G, what is your point?

And being vaguely stronger doesn't mean anything, GER is a universal+ reality warper who can influence multiple dimensions, even without physically moving.



Endless Mike said:


> If you check the OP, I banned that.
> 
> I could unban it, but IMO that ability is just too fucking crazy to debate logically.



I know. Just saying.


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> So what? Pucci, a man who knows how powerful and broken his Stand is also mentioned a God existing as well, with a capital G, what is your point?


Lamdadelta a witch that can stop time, grant any wish, casually create or destroy universes stated that the creator exists (confirmed by the author as well) and she herself who is very powerful stated that they are Omnipotent  with a capital O.  *Obviously it wold be fanboyish to accept said claim, since the Creators have 0 on screen feats. We only know that they are the most powerful entities in Umineko*





> *And being vaguely stronger doesn't mean anything,* GER is a universal+ reality warper who can influence multiple dimensions, even without physically moving.



*Feathering is not vaguely stronger.  She casually stomped Lamdadelta. 
*
Featherine, Lamda and Bern are as well universal + reality warpers who can influence multiple kakeras, dimensions, worlds (i.E. Higurashi), with the possibility to virtually grant almost any wish and the power to travel outside time and space, time travel and travel to other kakeras.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Do you have a point to make yet or still continuing with the vagaries of powerscaling without quantification to actually show the difference?

Nothing Umineko has is going to phase GER in the least, game over.

Fucking deal with it.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

Wait, since when can GER match multiversal beings and attack entities that exist in other dimensions???

Can GER exist in a destroyed universe?

Mind you I don't know about JJBA, but going from GER's profile this isn't even much of a challenge for the Umineko side...


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Bullshit, there is no multiversal beings in Umineko. Traveling to different universes doesn't make you universal much less multiversal.

And you said the same shit with the GER vs Getbackers thread.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Bullshit, there is no multiversal beings in Umineko. Traveling to different universes doesn't make you universal much less multiversal.



You mean other then Lambda and bern being the masterminds behind Umineko?  

Then again, I don't remember if we came to a conclusion if Higurashi was seperate universes or dimensions.

So if not multiversal, universal, but with the ability to attack from other dimensions/universes.



> And you said the same shit with the GER vs Getbackers thread.



Going to attempt to poison the well again fang?


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Do you have a point to make yet or still continuing with the vagaries of powerscaling without quantification to actually show the difference?


I am not power scaling. I only mentioned stuff that actually happened and was stated in Umineko

1) Lamdadelta  admited "that Freatherin was much stronger than her". She even recognized that facing Featherin by herself was a suicide. And yea  Freatherine pretty much stomped Lamdadelta. If I were really power-scaling I would say something silly as  "Lamda and Bern can casually destroy a universe. THerefore Featherine is multiversal".  
There is nothing that suggests that. THough Featherine would be pretty much a high universal+ threat 


2) We have the word of both the witches and the author about the Creator being much powerful.

3)Featherine can pretty much alter reality and control actions and events via her reality warp powers.




> Nothing Umineko has is going to phase GER in the least, game over.


1) The witches have showed the capability  to resist  reality warp. Just because they haven't faced something that is exactly the same thing as GER does not mean they can not. Otherwise
it would be a non limit fallacy.

Just try to mention 10 characters  from at least 5 different fictions who are  universal+ reality warpers who have  faced something like GER reseting actions back to zero.

Hell probably one of the best  feats of Dr. Strange was  when he was fighting against Adam Warlock for a while when he had the IG. Yet outside that feat despite that Strange has consistent showings of being a universe+ reality warper I do not recall him ever facing an opponent who can reset actions back to zero.

Going by this  GER would defeat Strange or any universe class+ reality warper. Which would obviously be an exaggeration.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> You mean other then Lambda and bern being the masterminds behind Umineko?



I care why?



> Then again, I don't remember if we came to a conclusion if umineko was seperate universes or dimensions.



So what, conclusion was Umineko was massively being wanked for "multiversals".



> So if not multiversal, universal, but with the ability to attack from other dimensions/universes.



Still gets stomped even if that is true.



> Going to attempt to poison the well again fang?



Going to try and deflect with another strawman? Cool story bro.



MichaelUN89 said:


> *snip*



Stop lying, you are doing exactly that.



> *snip*



More powerscaling, ad naseum.



> 2) We have the word of both the witches and the author about the Creator being much powerful.



Creator is banned, and even if it wasn't we have the same for JJBA, and you are STILL powerscaling.

Get off of it.



> 3)Featherine can pretty much alter reality and control actions and events via her reality warp powers.



So what? How does this make an ounce of difference?



> 1) The witches have showed the capability  to resist  reality warp. Just because they haven't faced something that is exactly the same thing as GER does not mean they can not. Otherwise
> it would be a non limit fallacy.



Not on GER's scale.



> Just try to mention 10 characters  from at least 5 different fictions who are  universal+ reality warpers who have  faced something like GER reseting actions back to zero.



Nice red herring bro.



> Hell probably one of the best  feats of Dr. Strange was  when he was fighting against Adam Warlock for a while when he had the IG. Yet outside that feat despite that Strange has consistent showings of being a universe+ reality warper I do not recall him ever facing an opponent who can reset actions back to zero.
> 
> Going by this  GER would defeat Strange or any universe class+ reality warper. Which would obviously be an exaggeration.



Your not making any ground with more goofy strawmen and non sequiters.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Bullshit, there is no multiversal beings in Umineko. Traveling to different universes doesn't make you universal much less multiversal.



Technically that depends on your definition of multiversal


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

You know that's just as applicable for GER right?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> I care why?



That was my mistake, I meant Higurashi, which was seperate universes created/manipulated by Bern and Lambda.



> So what, conclusion was Umineko was massively being wanked for "multiversals".



It was never wanked. And there was just universal destruction and creation feats posted.




> Still gets stomped even if that is true.



Since when can GER attack something in another plane of existence?



> Going to try and deflect with another strawman? Cool story bro.



Hah, what strawman? You didn't even make a argument that had to do with the thread, You simply made a attempt to poison the well by bringing up getbackers, and I called you out on it.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> It was never wanked. And there was just universal destruction and creation feats posted.



Yes it was, your memory is either faulty or deliberately your ignoring the Shin Megami Tensei vs Umineko thread.

I'll go with the latter.



> Since when can GER attack something in another plane of existence?



When it reality warped when not-existing in a dimension of erased time and space when the universe was fucking erased in the present.



> Hah, what strawman? You didn't even make a argument that had to do with the thread, You simply made a attempt to poison the well by bringing up getbackers, and I called you out on it.





> A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the "straw man"), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position



You were saying? I don't care if you call it poisoning the well, fact is fact.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> You know that's just as applicable for GER right?



Wasn't arguing against you



~Greed~ said:


> Since when can GER attack something in another plane of existence?



How does Diavolo's timeskip not count as another plane of existence?


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> So what, conclusion was Umineko was massively being wanked for "multiversals".
> 
> 
> 
> Still gets stomped even if that is true.






Non of the witches have multiversal showings. Though there are some universal+ feats.  Still there is the fact that it is implied that creators created the Umineko verse (which is a multiverse). But that has not been shown on screen



It is true that they can cause damage to others while being in other dimension/universe.  Voyagers can play with the real world (our world)  while they are in the meta world.  GER is not multiversal. For GER to attack someone who is in another universe it would require multiversal range.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

No, already refuted by both me and EM several times, and writing in different colored fonts isn't going to change that.


----------



## ~Shin~ (Jan 31, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Just to note:
> Lambdadelta has the power to kill anybody with absolute certainity. She used this ability in Higurashi to repeatedly kill Rika and led the Higurashi cast to their doom. Always. Over and over for god knows how many times. Yet Bernkastel solved the situation in the end thus escaped this loop.
> I have little reason to believe she can't do the same with GER. Not to mention that GER must first have to hit her. She has no physical body and resides in a different plane to begin with.



I'm pretty sure this isn't completely true. Bern makes a remark that once Lambda makes a proclamation with absolute certainty, there is no getting out of it even with her powers because her ability makes the possibility of something happen 100% or 0%. 

And I haven't read Higurashi (only saw the anime) but from what I gather, Lambda wasn't the one who was responsible for Rika dying over and over again. It was because Featherine abandoned her in the middle of the game.



Fang said:


> Bullshit, there is no multiversal beings in Umineko. Traveling to different universes doesn't make you universal much less multiversal.



So, what exactly does that make you?


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> No, already refuted by both me and EM several times, and writing in different colored fonts isn't going to change that.



I like blue bra... 

Whatever...


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

~Shin~ said:


> So, what exactly does that make you?



Dimensional traveler?

Its like having the ability to travel to different dimensions or times or universes all of the sudden makes you the equivalent to Galactus or something. 

Hyper Kabuto can time travel, reverse/rewind time, use temporal clones, exist retroactively still in the present or future, even if you destroy him in the past, and go to different dimensions, that doesn't mean he's a multiversal reality warper.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Wasn't arguing against you
> How does Diavolo's timeskip not count as another plane of existence?



Since when does skipping time count as attacking something that is in another dimension?




Fang said:


> Yes it was, your memory is either faulty or deliberately your ignoring the Shin Megami Tensei vs Umineko thread.
> 
> I'll go with the latter.


Still haven't read that thread. And we got new feats since then.


Although considering there are other people in here who know more than me about Umineko, and said that they aren't multiversal, I'll concede to this.



> When it reality warped when not-existing in a dimension of erased time and space when the universe was fucking erased in the present.



So it reality warped when time and space was destroyed? How does that have anything to do with being able to attack something that is in another dimension?




> You were saying? I don't care if you call it poisoning the well, fact is fact.





> To "attack a straw man" is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition



All you did was attempt to attack my position by bringing up Getbackers. You never made a argument relevant to the thread, so therefor there was no way I could have used the strawman fallacy.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Since when does skipping time count as attacking something that is in another dimension?



Do you know that TIME is the 4th dimension? 



> Still haven't read that thread. And we got new feats since then.



Yeah, sure you didn't. I've brought it up to you in the past before in another thread twice.



> So it reality warped when time and space was destroyed? How does that have anything to do with being able to attack something that is in another dimension?



...

Your doing this on purpose.

GER activated when it did not EXIST, when the universe did not EXIST temporally, when it was locked in a separate dimension of ERASED TIME AND SPACE, while Diavolo was skipping to the FUTURE UNIVERSE in a different dimension.



> *snip*



Wrong.  I'm just making a fair observation, stop trying to put words in my mouth.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Do you know that TIME is the 4th dimension?



So anyone who can control time can attack people who exist in other dimensions? News to me.




> Yeah, sure you didn't. I've brought it up to you in the past before in another thread twice.



Edited my post. While I meant to read the thread last time this was brought up, I got side-tracked.




> ...
> 
> Your doing this on purpose.
> 
> GER activated when it did not EXIST, when the universe did not EXIST temporally, when it was locked in a separate dimension of ERASED TIME AND SPACE, while Diavolo was skipping to the FUTURE UNIVERSE in a different dimension.




Ah, I misunderstood what you were saying before. I see what your saying now. Nevermind then.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 31, 2011)

And the 4th dimension of OUR universe. Also Crimson King doesn't erase the universe, just the time. You can say the 4th dimension you mentioned didn't exist.

It's still not an entirely different dimension. Meta World, the worlds between kakeras or even a different Kakera is that. Voyagers reside in either of those and can effect things outside those boundaries.
I don't care otherwise. Like I said it's not my deal how powerful the Uminekoverse is. Just correcting a few things.


----------



## ~Greed~ (Jan 31, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Meta World, the worlds between kakeras or even a different Kakera is that. Voyagers reside in either of those and can effect things outside those boundaries.


That was the point that I was attempting to get across.



> I don't care otherwise. Like I said it's not my deal how powerful the Uminekoverse is. Just correcting if I see something fallacious.


To be honest, I'm not even really a fan of Umineko, and have only read parts of the manga/anime. But I dislike it when people underestimate the power of a universe.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Uh no.

mercurial vapor superfly



~Greed~ said:


> So anyone who can control time can attack people who exist in other dimensions? News to me.



No. Because of the fact that time is a completely separate dimension regardless of its type.

GER influenced the universe(s) in different dimension, even while technically not being present, in a different one, from what can be construed as a completely different "dimension" or universe.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 31, 2011)

Uhm, are you just contradicting yourself Fang?
You brought up the fourth dimension. Of course by scientific term it means the first dimension of time, not a spatial dimension. Yet my point still stands. It's part of our universe. I like how you try to asspull various powers for GER from a single battle.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Except no. I never claimed time was a spatial dimension.

Time and space were both erased, That's how King Crimson's powers of time skipping works,  I like how you are still wrong.

I know a lot more about JJBA then you.


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Jan 31, 2011)

Fang said:


> Except no.
> 
> Time and space were both erased, That's how King Crimson's powers of time skipping works,  I like how you are still wrong.
> 
> I know a lot more about JJBA then you.



I only recall  "time" being erased. But ok.


----------



## Fang (Jan 31, 2011)

Both are affected for the universe to be skipped forward, hence why Diavolo himself isn't physically affected by actions that occurred when he skips time; bullets going through him, objects not physically effecting, etc...


----------



## willyvereb (Feb 1, 2011)

Except the universe remains, you know. Why should skipping the time erase the universe? You are just overinflating the entire feat just to give GER something it doesn't have. Point.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

No I'm not, this isn't the first time you've talked about JJBA and not realized you have no clue what your talking about and its fucking annoying.

Time is erased, the present universe is temporally erased for a short time in that duration; you are locked in a dimension where there is no time or space while King Crimson skips to the future one; the by-product of that is bullets still in motion in the "present" not affecting him in the future, even if he is still spatially there, the rest of the universe isn't.




Stop being wrong.


----------



## willyvereb (Feb 1, 2011)

Alright, theorize Giovanna ended up in a different dimension for a while. Where's the part he effected something beyond his dimension?
I think it has more to do with the fact that GER is the opposite of King Crimson and as such the perfect counter(not as if GER wouldn't be the perfect counter for near damn anything in JJBA). I didn't saw an example of it clean reaching beyond a single dimension.
Also you love to ignore that Voyagers and Witches are conceptual beings. I'm not even convinced that GER can even manage to put them into a loop.

Anyways, for now it seems to me that Uminekoverse cannot harm Giovanna either. Maybe if the Stand Arrow falls off...no, we don't even know when or even ever GER regressed to GE. The entire thing about GER is a NLF. Therefore it always ends up in shitstorms like this.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

Pucci, Funny Valentine as well as Silver Chariot Requiem are being underrated as well as Notorious BIG all of them could potentially beat Umineko 

Diavolo skipping time would allow him to not be effected by the actions that occur during his powers use regardless. After all you have to remember even as we the reader see things hes the only one who is experiencing those things that happen during the time skips. I look at it like this, the things that could have happened or effected him won't because time as an abstract is already at the point when he stops using his ability.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Alright, theorize Giovanna ended up in a different dimension for a while. Where's the part he effected something beyond his dimension?



He already did.



> I think it has more to do with the fact that GER is the opposite of King Crimson and as such the perfect counter(not as if GER wouldn't be the perfect counter for near damn anything in JJBA). I didn't saw an example of it clean reaching beyond a single dimension.



- Completely locked off dimension from the universe (King Crimson generates this to skip time)
- Said dimension is erased time and space on a universal level (GER does not exist at least when it occurs)
- The main/real universe is skipped into the future
- GER still nullifies everything even when this occurs, while technically not existing; in a separate dimension

So yes, it did.

Its a reality warper, through effect and powers, King Crimson bypassing of cause and effect doesn't change it. 



> Also you love to ignore that Voyagers and Witches are conceptual beings. I'm not even convinced that GER can even manage to put them into a loop.



Too bad this has already been discussed. And what the hell do you think the point is that GER can put values of zero on abstract concepts such as life, death, time, space, reality, create its own reality loops to warp people and so forth in the first place.



> The entire thing about GER is a NLF. Therefore it always ends up in shitstorms like this.



Wrong. Everything claimed for GER is based off its feats.

Get over it.


----------



## KaiserWombat (Feb 1, 2011)

I just saw mentionings of multiversal being thrown about...

...and yeah, range =/= destructive capacity

Just hopping between dimensions does not allow anyone the excuse to suggest that they are capable of even manipulating actions or events in more than one dimension simultaneosuly, much less destroy more than one in its entirety

Otherwise, you could feasibly claim characters like Byakuran of KHR as being potential dimension-busters

Though I assume all the posters involved in this debate already know this?


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

GER as a reality warper is based on setting values to zero, it literally has no other abilities besides this. 
I doubt it works on a universal level either since its only feats are resetting the values of someone's stand so when it attacked it wouldn't have the desired effect. 

Powerscaling by Diavolo to give GER abilities it doesn't have is just as much of a no limit fallacy as saying that abstracts in Umineko would be able to resist having their values reset or avoid getting put into any alternate universe.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

KaiserWombat said:


> Otherwise, you could feasibly claim characters like Byakuran of KHR as being potential dimension-busters



I hope you realize the difference between Byakuran and GER is like comparing an ant's strength to Superman's.



Matta Clatta said:


> GER as a reality warper is based on setting values to zero, it literally has no other abilities besides this.
> I doubt it works on a universal level either since its only feats are resetting the values of someone's stand so when it attacked it wouldn't have the desired effect.



Wrong.

How many fucking times do I have explain GER's powers for you to get it?


----------



## KaiserWombat (Feb 1, 2011)

Obviously.

I'm on GER's side here, I'm not about to suggest a fucking HST-level character can match a JJBA-verse top-tier any time in the next... well, forever tbh.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

My only statement is that it can clearly affect a universe, and multiple dimensions as well, easily. Its a reality warper, a high level one.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

Resetting someone's attack value to zero is the only power GER has, Diavolo's stand having a universal range wouldn't matter since he still wouldn't be able to take action against him in any sense with GER's ability.(you even posted scans of this so I have no idea why your trying to powerscale GER even more based on hearsay) A nice counter to this ability would be to put GER up against someone who can create multiple opponents. 

Also "erased" Time as an abstract is not a separate dimension since they are still occupying the space of whats already happened ie the past. Whenever Diavolo shows the ability to control everything in "erased" time and not just be immune to the cause thats when you can call it a separate universe.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Resetting someone's attack value to zero is the only power GER has.



No.



> Also "erased" Time as an abstract is not a separate dimension since they are still occupying the space of whats already happened ie the past.



Wrong. The rest of the real universe is locked off in erased time-space as King Crimson generates its own dimension when it skips forward in time. They did not occupy the same space or time or anything like that, especially when the feat was performed while the universe did not exist temporally.

You've argued this before and were proven wrong in the past, stop trying again with beating the dead horse.



> Whenever Diavolo shows the ability to control everything in "erased" time and not just be immune to the cause thats when you can call it a separate universe.



Diavolo erases time on a universal level, Diavolo manipulates and skips time in a separate dimension on a universal level; the ability to bypass while it occurs against a Stand whose side-effects of its powers are ignoring causality proves you are still wrong.

Your arguments are the same as Finn Mac Cool's attempt at trying to downplay GER in the GER vs Asuna thread.

That should tell you something.


----------



## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Why the bloody hell should multiple opponents attacking at the same time somehow bypass GER defense?


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> No.


Your still powerscaling if you think it has other abilities besides this.



Fang said:


> Wrong. The rest of the real universe is locked off in erased time-space as King Crimson generates its own dimension when it skips forward in time. They did not occupy the same space or time or anything like that, especially when the feat was performed while the universe did not exist temporally.


At no point in time is it said anywhere in part 5 that the past is a separate universe. Diavolo isn't generated its own dimension when it skips time its occupying the past 10 seconds or whatever interval of time that the regular universe didn't experience. The universe not existing temporally would imply that you think Diavolo is capable of erasing all time and somehow still be restricted by the abstract time of 10 seconds. It wouldn't make sense regardless of the way you are trying to explain it.

The real universe(the universe "everyone") is temporally occupying what we the reader can call the present, how you think this means the universe doesn't exist is another leap in logic that leads you to make claims about GER having a universal range when it doesn't. Does Diavolo stop existing in the present when he uses his stand? No? okay then you can't make that claim. 




Fang said:


> Diavolo erases time on a universal level, Diavolo manipulates and skips time in a separate dimension on a universal level; the ability to bypass while it occurs against a Stand whose side-effects of its powers are ignoring causality proves you are still wrong.


Your repeating the same argument thats fundamentally wrong, you are assuming that Diavolo has other abilities besides skipping time. Occupying the time in which conceptually something has already happened does not mean you are creating another dimension. GER ignoring causality is not an ability it has and the only way you could come to this conclusion is by powerscaling off of Diavolo. I mean do we have to look at the GER stat page before you will realize that everything it does can be coupled down resetting your value to zero and not some assumption that it can reality warp on a universal scale when nothing on panel suggests it has this ability. 


Fang said:


> Your arguments are the same as Finn Mac Cool's attempt at trying to downplay GER in the GER vs Asuna thread.
> 
> That should tell you something.



Haven't been here long enough to know who that is or what this has to do with my argument.




zenieth said:


> Why the bloody hell should multiple opponents attacking at the same time somehow bypass GER defense?


because it doesn't have showings to suggest it could do that to multiple people at once. It can attack multiple people and put them in reocurring deaths at the most. You know how no limit fallacies are


----------



## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

yeah, that's a fucking stupid argument.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Your still powerscaling if you think it has other abilities besides this.



Nope.



> *snip*



Already explained. He does generate his own dimension with King Crimson when time skipping occurs after the time erasure, still wrong, stop ignoring the scans I posted from the King Crimson vs Metallica fight.





Argument ad naseum is getting you nowhere. 



> Does Diavolo stop existing in the present when he uses his stand?



Yep. 



> *snip*



Your non sequiter standing aside, you have clearly like grasping at straws to implicate something didn't happen that did on panel.



> Haven't been here long enough to know who that is or what this has to do with my argument.



Sure you haven't.



> because it doesn't have showings to suggest it could do that to multiple people at once. It can attack multiple people and put them in reocurring deaths at the most. You know how no limit fallacies are



Yes it can.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Nope.


Your still wrong show me scans of GER doing something that isn't listed on its stat page or just concede.




Fang said:


> Already explained. He does generate his own dimension with King Crimson when time skipping occurs after the time erasure, still wrong, stop ignoring the scans I posted from the King Crimson vs Metallica fight.


If time is erased why is he still experiencing things that happen in that interval? Hes immune to its effects because hes already in the present where temporally the rest of the universe is, its not that hard to understand. Nothing that happens in the King Crimson vs Metallica fight changes this.


Fang said:


> Argument ad naseum is getting you nowhere.


Cool story bro 
so you have no argument to refute this?




Fang said:


> Yep.


Yeah I'm going to need proof of this otherwise your just ignoring my point because you have no idea what a realist view of time is.



Fang said:


> Your non sequiter standing aside, you have clearly like grasping at straws to implicate something didn't happen that did on panel.


And yet I know I didn't happen otherwise you wouldn't be powerscaling off of Diavolo now would you?




Fang said:


> Yes it can.


Yeah 
I still need proof of this


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Not really paying attention at this point, already explained more than a dozen times.

Cool attempt at deflection though, bro.


----------



## Emerald Chaos (Feb 1, 2011)

Just wondering... Where was GER when Stairway to Heaven destroyed the universe again?


----------



## Punpun (Feb 1, 2011)

Not there anymore. 

And the universe wasn't destroyed at that, it just reseted...


----------



## KaiserWombat (Feb 1, 2011)

IIRC, Araki stated that Giorno was actually in Florida at the time of the Stairway to Heaven incident.

As to why Gold Experience Requiem did not prevent StH's acceleration process from occuring, it could be due to any number of reasons: 

- Perhaps GER is incapable of neutralizing indirect threats? (doubtful though)

- There is a possibility that StH simply overpowered the mechanics of GER (again, I'm fairly sure that this wasn't the case)

- There is also the chance that GER actually _saved_ Giorno from the fate of the pre-Steel Ball Run universe, and that Giorno is still an existing character within the Steel Ball Run-verse, that has simply yet to be encountered.

- And finally, what is there to say that GER even still existed as an entity after the King Crimson showdown? After all, we are treated to a panel of the Stand Arrow fragment detaching itself from GER's face, something we've never seen happen to a Requiem Stand beforehand.


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Feb 1, 2011)

Mandom said:


> Not there anymore.
> 
> And the universe wasn't destroyed at that, it just reseted...



Eh... actually it is just an assumption that he lost GER.

Given the antecedents it would be logic to think that he did not lost GER.


i.e.  Part 4

After the arrow pierced Kira Yoshikage. He did not lost his powers when the gold arrow felt.

in  Part 5
Silver Chariot did not cease to exist  after the arrow felt.

There is no actual way to tell if Giorno actually lost GER.

Though it is probable that he did not.




KaiserWombat said:


> IIRC, Araki stated that Giorno was actually in Florida at the time of the Stairway to Heaven incident.
> 
> As to why Gold Experience Requiem did not prevent StH's acceleration process from occuring, it could be due to any number of reasons:
> 
> *- Perhaps GER is incapable of neutralizing indirect threats? (doubtful though)*



IMO  this  is a sensible theory and the most likely thing

The GER resets the actions of his opponents back to zero. Therefore if his foe is not before his stand then GER might not able to reset said action.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> Given the antecedents it would be logic to think that he did not lost GER.



Nope.



> i.e.  Part 4
> 
> After the arrow pierced Kira Yoshikage. He did not lost his powers when the gold arrow felt.



Wrong grasp of logic there. The arrow pierced Kira, the Stand User himself, for him to get Another One Bites The Dust. The Stand arrow hit Gold Experience instead of Giorno, which is why it became a Requiem Stand like SCR.

No comparison.



> in  Part 5
> Silver Chariot did not cease to exist  after the arrow felt.



Whose Stand User was already gone, clearly different effect than having a living Stand User with it whose Stand got hit instead of them.



> There is no actual way to tell if Giorno actually lost GER.



Too bad the arrow feel out of Giorno's body, and the last time we saw GER, the arrow was built into the crown of its head.



> Though it is probable that he did not.







> IMO  this  is a sensible theory and the most likely thing



 x2



> The GER resets the actions of his opponents back to zero. Therefore if his foe is not before his stand then GER might not able to reset said action.



Have fun doing that when it can nullify attack when it doesn't exist when the universe and itself were temporally erased in a different dimension.

And stop using the word reset as a lynch-pin term to downplay it as you have been this entire thread. It nullifies actions, wills, lives, and concepts with its reality warping.


----------



## Red (Feb 1, 2011)

> Durr


All this mouth breathing and still no scans of GER effecting higher dimensional universal level beings.


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Nope.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So nothing to back up your theory?

No one can prove if he actually lost or not GER.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

There goes that phrase "erasing the universe" again not like your continued assertion that this is in fact happening is going to actually prove anything but I guess your assumption that GER has reality warping powers hinges on this reasoning right?

Then you even make up some more powers for GER on the same page that someone just posted the stand card on. Nowhere on that page or even in the manga does it say that GER has the ability to nullify concepts or lives not to mention the fact that this would go against its modus operandi by actually killing someone instead of putting them in a death loop. 

In regards to Giorno having or not having GER anymore at the end of part 5 there are more clues that hint towards him not having it anymore then there are of him having it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Umineko is going to get sodomized by GER. Unless they have the ability to retroactively stop from having their will, their life, their existence, from being put in the value of zero. And the broken part is even if they take action, it will be as if they never did.



Thread should have ended here


----------



## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> There goes that phrase "erasing the universe" again not like your continued assertion that this is in fact happening is going to actually prove anything but I guess your assumption that GER has reality warping powers hinges on this reasoning right?
> 
> Then you even make up some more powers for GER on the same page that someone just posted the stand card on. Nowhere on that page or even in the manga does it say that *GER has the ability to nullify concepts or lives not to mention the fact that this would go against its modus operandi by actually killing someone instead of putting them in a death loop*.
> 
> In regards to Giorno having or not having GER anymore at the end of part 5 there are more clues that hint towards him not having it anymore then there are of him having it.



It does nullify concepts and lives. The death loop is a constant return to nil state for death, placing the concept of death on instant repeat. It's own page also says that it can turn will to a point of 0, basically relieving the target of it's own choices. The page statement might be vague, but that does not nullify it's ability

Turning King crimson's time skip to zero didn't just cut his ability halfway, it completely reset it, all the actions that passed due to it went on before it actually happened. Even if you argue that it cant affect the dimensions of space it still acted outside of time and as such can be pulled off any time or any nontime. it's why it has no stats, as the physic related equations can never be applied to it.


----------



## Watchman (Feb 1, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Thread should have ended here



GER just gets more broken everytime I hear about it. :S

What _is_ there that can stop GER?


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Light Hawk Wings more than probably.

True reality warpers at or above the scale of Cosmic Cube beings, real multiversals like Abaraxas, Galactus, Molecule Man, etc...



MichaelUN89 said:


> So nothing to back up your theory?
> 
> No one can prove if he actually lost or not GER.



Are you actually arguing there isn't a difference between the Stand arrow showing permanent affect on the Stand User vs piercing the Stand themselves directly?


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Light Hawk Wings probably.
> 
> *True reality warpers at or above the scale of Cosmic Cube *beings, real multiversals like Abaraxas, Galactus, Molecule Man, etc...



At the scale of a cosmic cube?

Bern and Lamda during their fight were consecutively creating-destroying a universe one after the other.

They  are reality warpers that can kill other beings on a conceptual level so they can not exist in other universes or in the future.

They can create gods.  They can stop time, create Leviathan's, black holes,etc.. Manipulate matter. Create alternative worlds. Bend time and space.

A newborn witch like Eva Beatrice who was not aware about her full potential casually created a mountain Everest sized+ cake to crush her little sister. 

They can live, die and resurrect as they wish. Last time I checked that kind of shit is at cosmic cube level.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Time for round 5 of pointlessness.


----------



## Gilgamesh (Feb 1, 2011)

Why is this so hard for people to get?

King Crimson removes and erases everything when it skips forward in time, GER was affected by it but simply nullified it when it happened while being outside of reality and existence.


----------



## Endless Mike (Feb 1, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> They can... create Leviathan's



I do that every time I use the toilet after eating Mexican food


----------



## MichaelUN89 (Feb 1, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I do that every time I *use the toilet after eating Mexican food*



Mexican food?? It is multiverse buster level.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> It does nullify concepts and lives. The death loop is a constant return to nil state for death, placing the concept of death on instant repeat. It's own page also says that it can turn will to a point of 0, basically relieving the target of it's own choices. The page statement might be vague, but that does not nullify it's ability
> 
> Turning King crimson's time skip to zero didn't just cut his ability halfway, it completely reset it, all the actions that passed due to it went on before it actually happened. Even if you argue that it cant affect the dimensions of space it still acted outside of time and as such can be pulled off any time or any nontime. it's why it has no stats, as the physic related equations can never be applied to it.


The Death loop isn't nullifying life or any type of concept since your still alive and not truly dying in any sense of the word since the stand is whats keeping you from dying by returning your value back to zero every time. The page statement along with what we see in the manga are the same thing, You can't use that kind of weak reasoning to give it more abilities then it really has.

King Crimson got its time skip off, he only commented on the fact that Giorno was able to move after he attacked him which is when he used GER to set the value of that attack to zero which allowed him to not be effected by his powers. 
Once again King Crimson is not creating another dimension or erasing the universe, if this was true and everything was being erased we wouldn't be seeing anything that occurs during the intervals when hes using his powers but as we see hes the only person retaining knowledge of what happens during that time because "hes" experiencing it while the universe has already been skipped ahead in time.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

King Crimson...time stop.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> King Crimson...time stop.
> 
> Enough said you have no idea of what your talking about.





Yeah thats proving me wrong


----------



## Endless Mike (Feb 1, 2011)

So if the wankers and whiners are done, we can mark this up as a victory for JJBA, right?


----------



## Red (Feb 1, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> So if the wankers and whiners are done, we can mark this up as a victory for JJBA, right?


Neato story.


----------



## Endless Mike (Feb 1, 2011)

Red said:


> Neato story.



I'll take that as a yes


----------



## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> -Snip-



Get Backers 2.0


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> -snip-



Considering he actually provided translations for the universe destruction feats, lol.


----------



## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

And they still lose to fabulous Giorno.


----------



## 8-Peacock-8 (Feb 1, 2011)

MichaelUN89 said:


> Mexican food?? It is multiverse buster level.



This/Thread


----------



## Red (Feb 1, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> I'll take that as a yes


If that makes you any less butt angry, go for it.


----------



## Watchman (Feb 1, 2011)

So, just asking - if Giorno Giovanni + GER were removed from the equation, would Umineko stand a chance? Or are there other equally broken stands?


----------



## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> The Death loop isn't nullifying life or any type of concept since your still alive and not truly dying in any sense of the word since the stand is whats keeping you from dying by returning your value back to zero every time. The page statement along with what we see in the manga are the same thing,* You can't use that kind of weak reasoning to give it more abilities then it really has.*
> 
> King Crimson got its time skip off, he only commented on the fact that Giorno was able to move after he attacked him which is when he used GER to set the value of that attack to zero which allowed him to not be effected by his powers.
> *Once again King Crimson is not creating another dimension or erasing the universe,* if this was true and everything was being erased we wouldn't be seeing anything that occurs during the intervals when hes using his powers but as we see *hes the only person retaining knowledge of what happens during that time because "hes" experiencing it while the universe has already been skipped ahead in time.*



1. The same can be said in reverse.

2. I never said he erased the universe, no he erases time which would mean that GER acts outside of the time stream

3. 

This right here is the biggest bullshit, you act like he isn't erasing the time, just merely allowing himself to speed up events around him while he can experience them in normal time. No completely erases those segments of time, they no longer exist and yet he is fully capable of using these broken off areas and affecting them to his benefit. He's able to kill people within this removed time and have the effects come about once he reaches the end and yet a the same time not be affected by the matter that passes through because realistically since that time never happened he could never have been hurt, ala metallica, that passes through. GER completely reversed this he couldn't affect it, while it could affect him. Something that fundamentally should not happen.


----------



## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Considering he actually provided translations for the universe destruction feats, lol.



He provided character statements and flowery language.Which is the same thing happening in this thread. I like GB but meh, I couldn't give a crap about it's standing in the OBD anymore anyway,


----------



## Endless Mike (Feb 1, 2011)

Red said:


> If that makes you any less butt angry, go for it.



You're projecting again


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> He provided character statements and flowery language.Which is the same thing happening in this thread. I like GB but meh, I couldn't give a crap about it's standing in the OBD anymore anyway,



I wasn't talking about GB, but Umineko. Michael actually posted actual feats (not character statements) for universal destruction and creation on like the first page for Bern and Lambadelta. They were complete universes full of galaxies and such as well.


----------



## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> I wasn't talking about GB, but Umineko. Michael actually posted actual feats (not character statements) for universal destruction and creation on like the first page for Bern and Lambadelta. They were complete universes full of galaxies and such as well.



And this isn't just like that how?


----------



## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> And this isn't just like that how?



I don't see what more you could want for proof fo universe ending. It's in text feats....Quotes directly from the VN no less...

edit - I'm not even arguing who would win.....But I think it's possible to give any better proof for universe ending+creating feats then that.


----------



## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Well defining who said this statement would make it clearer.


----------



## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

> And this isn't just like that how?



How is that a Character Statement?

Is a direct Feat of a translation of the last sound novel, where Bern and Lambda where fighting and were causing Universal Destruction adn Creation.

And makes even sense since even Beatrice who is shit compared to the two mentioned created an universe with Maria in EP4.

Just clearing this.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> 3.
> 
> This right here is the biggest bullshit, you act like he isn't erasing the time, just merely allowing himself to speed up events around him while he can experience them in normal time. No completely erases those segments of time, they no longer exist and yet he is fully capable of using these broken off areas and affecting them to his benefit. He's able to kill people within this removed time and have the effects come about once he reaches the end and yet a the same time not be affected by the matter that passes through because realistically since that time never happened he could never have been hurt, ala metallica, that passes through. GER completely reversed this he couldn't affect it, while it could affect him. Something that fundamentally should not happen.



If hes erasing time then logically he wouldn't need to experience those same events with his stand everything would just skip immediately. Hes only erasing time in the notion that people besides him don't remember what happens because hes skipping time and the universe is already at another point in time. 
The use of the word erase isn't important in any type of way. The fact that we see the events that happen during a time skip interval are the most important thing. This is what allows us to conclude that if he were really erasing everything all actions would have no end result since they had no beginning if hes erasing everything.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Well defining who said this statement would make it clearer.



Uh....it wasn't a character statement...at all. 

It was the narrarator narrarating the fight between lambda and bern, saying that as they clashed/traded blows, universes were being created and destroyed.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Weather said:


> And makes even sense since even Beatrice who is shit compared to the two mentioned created an universe with Maria in EP4.



To be fair though, Beatrice's/Maria's universe was tiny, although it was full of life.



Weather said:


> How is that a Character Statement?
> 
> Is a direct Feat of a translation of the last sound novel, where Bern and Lambda where fighting and were causing Universal Destruction adn Creation.
> 
> ...


 

Finally, someone who gets it.


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## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

> To be fair though, Beatrice's/Maria's universe was tiny, although it was full of life.



It was still a complete Universe though as stated by both Narrator and Ange.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

The trans says the same universe is being recycled you know. That's not quite the same as making a completely new one from scratch.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Weather said:


> It was still a complete Universe though as stated by both Narrator and Ange.



I know. I was just saying it was small.


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## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

Number one: I hope you guys realize that narrators can be prone to hyperbole too. I've seen it in difference novel series all the time; Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000/Fantasy, Animorphs.

Number two, fact of the matter is that Zenieth is right, GER operated outside of fucking existence/creation while it didn't exist, since the entire time stream was erased. You are not going to change anything trying to bullshit around that, Matta.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> The trans says the same universe is being recycled you know. That's not quite the same as making a completely new one from scratch.



The universe was completely destroyed each time. So yes, it was a completely new universe each time.


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## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> The trans says the same universe is being recycled you know. That's not quite the same as making a completely new one from scratch.



It does not say that, it clearly states that an universe is created by a Big Bang and then Followed by a Big Crunch ending it, only to be followed by a another Big Bang and so go on...


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## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> If hes erasing time then logically he wouldn't need to experience those same events with his stand everything would just skip immediatel*y. Hes only erasing time in the notion that people besides him don't remember what happens because hes skipping time and the universe is already at another point in time.*
> The use of the word erase isn't important in any type of way. The fact that we see the events that happen during a time skip interval are the most important thing. This is what allows us to conclude that if he were really erasing everything all actions would have no end result since they had no beginning if hes erasing everything.



Now I know your talking bullshit. Unless the universe forgot that he got filled the fuck up with lead.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Number one: I hope you guys realize that narrators can be prone to hyperbole too. I've seen it in difference novel series all the time; Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000/Fantasy, Animorphs.



Then you may as well dismiss every feat from any novel going by that logic. Since feats in novels are usually stated by the narrarator.

Again, wasn't even arguing a winner for the thread any more.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

Weather said:


> It does not say that, it clearly states that an universe is created by a Big Bang and then Followed by a Big Crunch ending it, only to be followed by a another Big Bang and so go on...



Yes, it does.



"reborn anew"


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## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

> Number one: I hope you guys realize that narrators can be prone to hyperbole too. I've seen it in difference novel series all the time; Star Wars, Warhammer 40,000/Fantasy, Animorphs.



The thing is stated During the fight. How can that be Hyperbole?, it describes a Big Bang, then a Big crunch and even Specifies that the univere is being created and destroyed.

Sorry I can't see the Hyperbole.

For the images I need to get the game... Witch Hunt is pretty slow on that also...



> "reborn anew"



Because it was just destroyed and a Big Bang created it again?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

Weather said:


> Because it was just destroyed and a Big Bang created it again?



To be "reborn" you have to have already existed. It's not a brand new universe it's the same one collapsing and expanding over and over and over. This really isn't hard.


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## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Then you may as well dismiss every feat from any novel going by that logic. Since feats in novels are usually stated by the narrarator.



I think your confusing direct narration with omniscient narration.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Yes, it does.
> 
> 
> 
> "reborn anew"



Does it really matter if it were the same universe? I mean it was created by a big bang, then completely destroyed by a big crunch, and then created by a big bang, then destroyed again by a big crunch. Either way, it's effectively a new universe every time it's created and destroyed. Giving universe creation and destruction feats no matter how you look at it.


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## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Now I know your talking bullshit. Unless the universe forgot that he got filled the fuck up with lead.



So that's why the bullets didn't hit Diavolo, the bullets mentally forgot about him.


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## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

> I think your confusing direct narration with omniscient narration.



The thing Fang is in the game that scene happens in front of the very player eyes, we see the fight, the narration describes the event and states what's happening.

And is states that feat.

EDIT: Why the Downplay anyway? it's not like anyone arguing the winner anymore.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Does it really matter if it were the same universe? I mean it was created by a big bang, then completely destroyed by a big crunch, and then created by a big bang, then destroyed again by a big crunch. Either way, it's effectively a new universe every time it's created and destroyed. Giving universe creation and destruction feats no matter how you look at it.



Yes it matters. I can't believe anyone would suggest otherwise. Recycling an existing universe is <<<<<< making a completely independent new one. There isn't any difference in total energy in our universe now then there was at the big bang. The difference is it's in a different form. It had all the necessary ingredients for a working universe, they just helped it along. Yes, it was technically destroyed but it still existed in another form.


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## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

Weather said:


> The thing Fang is in the game that scene happens in front of the very player eyes, we see the fight, the narration describes the event and states what's happening.
> 
> And is states that feat.
> 
> EDIT: Why the Downplay anyway? it's not like anyone arguing the winner anymore.



I thought you didn't play the game


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## Weather (Feb 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> I thought you didn't play the game



Animesuki forums Helps... A LOT.

And Umineko isn't know for off panel action anyway.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Now I know your talking bullshit. Unless the universe forgot that he got filled the fuck up with lead.



How is he creating another universe or dimension? Hes still occupying or experiencing the space of the past in the perspective from the universe's time

How is he erasing time? Hes essentially making the universe skip ahead in time. All actions that happen during those intervals still happen regardless of your assertions that everything is erased.

 I mentioned before earlier in the thread Diavolo's powers or at least Araki's take on it follow the realist perspective of time which basically would invalidate all your arguments about the extra functions his powers have.


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## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

No one said anything about King Crimson creating a universe. 

You've misconstrued and confused its powers any number of times now that its getting really annoying.



Weather said:


> The thing Fang is in the game that scene happens in front of the very player eyes, we see the fight, the narration describes the event and states what's happening.
> 
> And is states that feat.
> 
> EDIT: Why the Downplay anyway? it's not like anyone arguing the winner anymore.



Not arguing about this feat whatever it maybe from the VN: 



> # The omniscient narrator knows everything, may reveal the motivations, thoughts and feelings of the characters, and gives the reader information.
> # With a limited omniscient narrator, the material is presented from the point of view of a character, in third person.


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## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

So you're literally saying he made the universe forget that aerosmith filled his body to the brim with lead. 

Well fuck we got a new law of the universe right here.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Yes it matters. I can't believe anyone would suggest otherwise. Recycling an existing universe is <<<<<< making a completely independent new one. There isn't any difference in total energy in our universe now then there was at the big bang. The difference is it's in a different form. It had all the necessary ingredients for a working universe, they just helped it along. Yes, it was technically destroyed but it still existed in another form.



Again, The universe was completely destroyed by a big crunch. Meaning there was nothing left, nothing to recycle, there were no "ingredients" from the past universe left. The contents and layout, and even the life in the universe could be the same yes, but it was completely "created anew". You can't recycle from nothing, you have to use new materials all together.

Seriously, why the downplaying?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> Not arguing about this feat whatever it maybe from the VN:





> # The omniscient narrator knows everything, may reveal the motivations, thoughts and feelings of the characters, and gives the reader information.



There was no third character to narrate the fight. It was a omniscient narrator giving details on the fight.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Again, The universe was completely destroyed by a big crunch. Meaning there was nothing left, nothing to recycle, there were no "ingredients" from the past universe left. The contents and layout, and even the life in the universe could be the same yes, but it was completely "created anew". You can't recycle from nothing, you have to use new materials all together.



But that's where you have it wrong Greed. Everything that made the universe was still there at the center of the big crunch. That's was a big crunch is. It didn't go away, it got compressed to the state it was prior to the big bang. Left to its own devices it'd expand again on its own at some point.


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## Fang (Feb 1, 2011)

I wonder how powerful Crazy Diamond Requiem would be.


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## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> There was no third character to narrate the fight. It was a omniscient narrator giving details on the fight.



That's not what it means


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## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Fang said:


> I wonder how powerful Crazy Diamond Requiem would be.



Has someone insulted Josuke's hair prior to the fight?


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 1, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> That's not what it means



You mean the quote I posted? That was something TWF just posted, so yes, that is what being a omniscient narrator means.

@UD, I'll reply tomorrow, since I'm going to sleep. Though while I kind of get what your saying, I don't necessarily agree.


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## Matta Clatta (Feb 1, 2011)

zenieth said:


> So you're literally saying he made the universe forget that aerosmith filled his body to the brim with lead.
> 
> Well fuck we got a new law of the universe right here.



Their not experiencing that time linearly or at all in some cases so once again why would they remember those events if they never temporally occurred at all to them?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> @UD, I'll reply tomorrow, since I'm going to sleep. Though while I kind of get what your saying, I don't necessarily agree.


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## zenieth (Feb 1, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Their not experiencing that time linearly or at all in some cases so once again why would they remember those events if they never temporally occurred at all to them?



Explain why trish's hand remembered to sever itself from her body or why giogio's body remembered to get impaled on those iron bars.


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## Kurou (Feb 1, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> You mean the quote I posted? That was something TWF just posted, so yes, that is what being a omniscient narrator means.



No man. It has nothing to do with having a third character present during the fight. What it means is, the Narrator is telling it from a third person view point, I.E. his perspective. That isn't the same as an Omniscient Narrator.


the best examples I can use are Shakespeare works or old literary works.


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 2, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> No man. It has nothing to do with having a third character present during the fight. What it means is, the Narrator is telling it from a third person view point, I.E. his perspective. That isn't the same as an Omniscient Narrator.
> 
> 
> the best examples I can use are Shakespeare works or old literary works.



Meh, doesn't really matter either way. If we were that subjective when determining weather a feat said by a narrator was valid or not, then more than half the feats in any novel/ LN/ VN or whatever would be thrown out the window, or considered invalid.

Not to mention, that the part in question didn't seem to have any hyperbole's or exaggerations anyways. I mean it was pretty detailed.


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## Red (Feb 2, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> The trans says the same universe is being recycled you know. That's not quite the same as making a completely new one from scratch.


Are you implying that Bern and Lambda can't make a new universe from scratch? They can.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 2, 2011)

Whether or not they can has absolutely no baring on what the feat actually describes


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## Endless Mike (Feb 2, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Again, The universe was completely destroyed by a big crunch. Meaning there was nothing left, nothing to recycle, there were no "ingredients" from the past universe left. The contents and layout, and even the life in the universe could be the same yes, but it was completely "created anew". You can't recycle from nothing, you have to use new materials all together.
> 
> Seriously, why the downplaying?



Someone doesn't know basic cosmology


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 2, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> Someone doesn't know basic cosmology



Admittedly, my knowledge of cosmology isn't that great. Not going to lie there. I was thinking that a big crunch completely destroyed the universe.


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## Kurou (Feb 2, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Meh, doesn't really matter either way. If we were that subjective when determining weather a feat said by a narrator was valid or not, then more than half the feats in any novel/ LN/ VN or whatever would be thrown out the window, or considered invalid.
> 
> Not to mention, that the part in question didn't seem to have any hyperbole's or exaggerations anyways. I mean it was pretty detailed.






I'm just clearing up your misinterpretation of an Omniscient Narrator. Wheteher or not the so called feat is invalid or not, I'm still skeptical, I don't really care


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## ~Greed~ (Feb 2, 2011)

~Strike Man~ said:


> I'm just clearing up your misinterpretation of an Omniscient Narrator. Wheteher or not the so called feat is invalid or not, I'm still skeptical, I don't really care



Yea, I get what your saying now. That was my mistake.


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## Endless Mike (Feb 2, 2011)

~Greed~ said:


> Admittedly, my knowledge of cosmology isn't that great. Not going to lie there. I was thinking that a big crunch completely destroyed the universe.



It collapses it into a singularity. Matter and energy cannot be created or destroyed, first law of thermodynamics. The singularity could then become another Big Bang. Basically squeeze all the stuff down then expand it again, think of it like an accordion if that helps.


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## Watchman (Feb 2, 2011)

So how does Umineko stack up against JJBA without GER? Since GER can solo...


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## ~Shin~ (Feb 2, 2011)

Why are we arguing about whether or not Bern and Lambda can create universes out of scratch? Even if you think they can't, Maria already did.


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## Red (Feb 2, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Whether or not they can has absolutely no baring on what the feat actually describes


Exactly, so why bring up a moot point?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 3, 2011)

Red said:


> Exactly, so why bring up a moot point?



What the hell are you talking about? That feat was being massively overhyped. Whether or not they can has no baring on THAT feat and what it says actually happened. Cool?


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## Red (Feb 3, 2011)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> What the hell are you talking about?


Your previous posts questioned whether or not they could create universes from scratch, I'm saying that's an irrelevant question since we already have Maria and Beatrice making their single universe.



> That feat was being massively overhyped.


Its not being over hyped at all . Its only being repeated because people don't get it the first time around. Its not even the first showings of universal creation in the game.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Feb 3, 2011)

Red said:


> Your previous posts questioned whether or not they could create universes from scratch, I'm saying that's an irrelevant question since we already have Maria and Beatrice making their single universe.


No it wasn't  I was only pointing out they misunderstood the feat. I really don't know how you can conclude that. I even said they had no baring on one another.



> Its not being over hyped at all . Its only being repeated because people don't get it the first time around. Its not even the first showings of universal creation in the game.



Yes it was. It is clear multiple people misinterpreted it as them creating multiple universes in a string instead of causing the same one to collapse and expand over and over. There is a MASSIVE difference between the two.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Here my buddies is the proof of Umineko's character multiversality



That is the sea of fragments that can be easily manipulated by Bernkastel, every Kakera (fragment) is a whole universe.

Second: Magic of certainty (Lambdadelta): Creates a fact that will happens always with a 100% probabilty and cannot fail, she can use it to anything she wants, and it is only actived by her whim. She may use it to eliminate the existance of something like GER (it eliminates the concept, so no defense or evasion is possible).

Third: Witches are abstract, stuff like time doesn't means nothing to them; even if they look speed, it is stated that speed means nothing to witches.

Fourth: Bernkastel's Magic of Miracles: Can reset any unfavourable situation to a favourable one to Bernkastel, only if the chance is different from 0%, however it also was stated that 0% is almost imposible to reach.

Fifth: Something like GER can be anulated by Battler's Endless nine, that basically denys every attack even from the Gods, and elevated to infinite, so how is GER going to affect something that not even the Gods can hurt? (And just in case, is refered to high gods, those gods of mythology are easy manipulable by witches).

Send me a good counterargument, and not just blabbering


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## OS (Oct 17, 2011)

Is this worth the necro? Let's find out.


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## Weather (Oct 17, 2011)

Oh... god... oh... god.

Not this again...


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 17, 2011)

Jesus fucking Christ!


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

I recently entered here, because I wasn't able to see, how people forgot so many important facts. So who is winning 'till now?


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## Nevermind (Oct 17, 2011)

First: Stop necroing threads.

Second: Proof of "multiverality?" I see none.

Third: Stop using the word "gods" as if it's an argument.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 17, 2011)




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## OS (Oct 17, 2011)

Wasn't everything in Umineko considered a dream?


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Oct 17, 2011)

This thread makes me a saaaad panda.


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## Weather (Oct 17, 2011)

Sigh... 

Let me clear something here before hell sets loose.

Yeah both Bern and Lambda showed Multiversal Feats... that's right.

But only in RANGE. Not in outright D.Capacity, not to mention to my understanding GER has a similar range too.

Also Bern's ability will be effectively Overruled by GER. Due to her inability to affect something with 0 odds (something that GER reduces to)

MAAYBE Featherine is Multiversal due to stomping Lambda easily in the last novel when lambda is a casual Universal+

But she lacks the feats for it.


That's all NOW PLEASE LOCK THIS NOW.



> Wasn't everything in Umineko considered a dream?



No fucking way.



> Second: Proof of "multiverality?" I see none.



She has effectively multiversal range, that's no lie, every Kakera is an Universe.

Still doesn't change anything.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> First: Stop necroing threads.
> 
> Second: Proof of "multiverality?" I see none.
> 
> Third: Stop using the word "gods" as if it's an argument.



-Why it doesn't count as a proof of multiversality?
-Remove the word Gods, even with that is stated that can deny any magic, and magic is considered all that is fiction
-So can you say that magic of certainty isn't of use here, when its probablity will always be 100 without fail
-GER must impact if I'm not wrong


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## Shozan (Oct 17, 2011)

Pocoloco > Umineko Verse!


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## Basilikos (Oct 17, 2011)

Some epic necroing in here...


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## Nevermind (Oct 17, 2011)

Weather said:


> She has effectively multiversal range, that's no lie, every Kakera is an Universe.
> 
> Still doesn't change anything.



Alright, that scan was probably not the one of choice to use then.

So yeah, another sign-up troll. Nothing new.


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## OS (Oct 17, 2011)

@ Weather

I swear I read somewhere it was a mans dream.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Alright, that scan was probably not the one of choice to use then.
> 
> So yeah, another sign-up troll. Nothing new.



Geez, people is really sensible here, I'm just stating the facts that weren't stated, if you're able to disprove Endless nine, Magic of certainty, and the power of manipulate reality of Featherinne I'm done. Also I think that is pretty obvious that when Umineko is posted in a thread is considered the magic part. Because we all know that all was a dream.


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## Weather (Oct 17, 2011)

> Geez, people is really sensible here, I'm just stating the facts that weren't stated, if you're able to disprove Endless nine, Magic of certainty, and the power of manipulate reality of Featherinne I'm done. Also I think that is pretty obvious that when Umineko is posted in a thread is considered the magic part. *Because we all know that all was a dream.*



Not a Dream Exactly... Just a massive trolling would be more accurate.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

One last thing, I didn't came here to troll, I just saw this battle, and wanted to state some facts, as I say if they are disproved I'm done, if not, I'm also done, but I must say that if two absolute moves are engaged, both becames anulated.
I'm here to defend the little value that fanboys of shonen give to stories that they don't even know, and it is not only Umineko, there are more.


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## Nevermind (Oct 17, 2011)

OBD conspiracy.

Illuminati everywhere.


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## sonic546 (Oct 17, 2011)

Endless Sorcerer said:


> One last thing, I didn't came here to troll, I just saw this battle, and wanted to state some facts, as I say if they are disproved I'm done, if not, I'm also done, but I must say that if two absolute moves are engaged, both becames anulated.
> I'm here to defend the little value that fanboys of shonen give to stories that they don't even know, and it is not only Umineko, there are more.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Weather said:


> Not a Dream Exactly... Just a massive trolling would be more accurate.



Seriously?, yeah it may be a bit of trolling, But I liked the ending, not the typical happy ending, and something so unexpected and abrupted, it was different to the common; also I hear that Ryukishi is going to do an alternative ending in Tsubasa2, but it is just rumors


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## Basilikos (Oct 17, 2011)

Endless Sorcerer said:


> One last thing, I didn't came here to troll, I just saw this battle, and wanted to state some facts, as I say if they are disproved I'm done, if not, I'm also done, but I must say that if two absolute moves are engaged, both becames anulated.
> I'm here to defend the little value that fanboys of shonen give to stories that they don't even know, and it is not only Umineko, there are more.


Bumping old threads is frowned upon around here. Please don't do it again. 

And the tastes in fiction are actually quite broad here.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Basilikos said:


> Bumping old threads is frowned upon around here. Please don't do it again.
> 
> And the tastes in fiction are actually quite broad here.



Ok, just because you give an intelligent answer I'm done, as I say I'm not troll I know when to retire. But I really think that people gets sensible easily here. Maybe I'll make an Umineko vs Saint Seiya, just tell me if it is already done to prevent mistakess.


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## Basilikos (Oct 17, 2011)

It's better to check with google to see if match ups have been done already. Our forum search function is generally crappy.


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## Asune (Oct 17, 2011)

Basilikos said:


> It's better to check with google to see if match ups have been done already. Our forum search function is generally crappy.



I'll consider it, thanks


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Oct 17, 2011)

These verses seem overall similar in power to me.

Amirite.


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## ~Greed~ (Oct 18, 2011)

Bumping old threads is frowned upon in the OBD.


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