# Would you agree Oro is the strongest of The Sannin?



## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

I don't mean physical strength, I mean overall power/combat capability.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

No.


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## Bonly (Nov 1, 2017)

Since Edo Tensei is a thing, Yes I would say that he's the strongest

Reactions: Agree 2 | Friendly 1


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## Santoryu (Nov 1, 2017)

It's probably Jiraiya.

Orochimaru did obtain Hashirama's cells however, so it's not out of the question. He's indubitably the most resourceful, however, but even with edo tensei (a technique that requires prep and is highly situational), he admitted profound inferiority to Itachi. All that being said, there's not a huge power difference between the three.

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## Veracity (Nov 1, 2017)

They are all equal; or Sage Jirayia, Byakago Tsunade with Katsuyu retcon, and Oro with Part 1 Edo should all relatively be in the same ballpark.

Part 2 Edo throws everything off though

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 1, 2017)

With Edo Tensei? For sure. If he continued to improve into the Boruto era than probably yes as well.

In Naruto era without Edo Tensei? No, Jiriaya is a level above him in Sage Mode.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Nov 1, 2017)

If you're talking about the version of Orochimaru that got Hashirama's cells and has the perfected version of Edo Tensei then yeah he's the strongest. Other than that? No, Jiraiya is the strongest due the fact that he is the only Sannin strong enough to achieve Sage Mode and has greater overall portrayal in general.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Stonaem (Nov 1, 2017)

Even without ET he can win many more fights than his counterparts due to his variety

Also, Jiraiya achieving SM isn't a good argument since it wasn't perfect, just like Oro wasn't perfect and therefore chose not to rey on it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

Silnaem said:


> Even without ET he can win many more fights than his counterparts due to his variety
> 
> Also, Jiraiya achieving SM isn't a good argument since it wasn't perfect, just like Oro wasn't perfect and therefore chose not to rey on it


There's no such thing as a "perfect" sage

It was made up by the fandom

Reactions: Informative 1 | Neutral 2 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> There's no such thing as a "perfect" sage
> 
> It was made up by the fandom



You mean besides Fukasaku stating Jiraiya never perfected his SM?

Enough of your lies dude.

I'm getting real tired of you outright lying to other posters dude, i'm tempted to report you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Informative 2 | Dislike 1


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## Zero890 (Nov 1, 2017)

Since the fourth war, Oro is superior to Jiraiya and Tsunade with ET. With ET P1 he is inferior to Jiraiya although superior to Tsunade. I don't hate Tsunade but she is the weakest of the Sannin, SM Jiraiya and Oro with ET overcome her by a good margin imo. To make it easier

Oro with ET fourth war >>>>>>>>>>>>> Jiraiya and Tsunade

SM Jiraiya> Oro with ET P1> Tsunade.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You mean besides Fukasaku stating Jiraiya never perfected his SM?
> 
> Enough of your lies dude.
> 
> I'm getting real tired of you outright lying to other posters dude, i'm tempted to report you.


Are you stupid? Show me where Pa says anything about being a perfect sage. All he said was Naruto was better than Jiraiya which is obvious as fucking day.

There is no Perfect Sage Mode, the only time perfect was used in the context of Pa's words was a mistranslation, and _The only actual time_ a "perfect sage" was mentioned was when Kabuto compared himself in contrast to Orochimaru. Those who successfully perform Sage Mode have the rings around their eyes as proof which are seen with Kabuto, Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya(frog aspects of course) and Hashirama. That's it, there's no perfect or imperfect sage mode.

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Are you stupid? Show me where Pa says anything about being a perfect sage. All he said was Naruto was better than Jiraiya which is obvious as fucking day.
> 
> There is no Perfect Sage Mode, the only time perfect was used in the context of Pa's words was a mistranslation, and _The only actual time_ a "perfect sage" was mentioned was when Kabuto compared himself in contrast to Orochimaru. Those who successfully perform Sage Mode have the rings around their eyes as proof which are seen with Kabuto, Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya and Hashirama. That's it, there's no perfect or imperfect sage mode.



You're splitting hairs, fuck off.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

Jiraiya was an imperfect sage whether u like it or not, Jiraiya was a sage, the rings around his eyes are decisive proof of that and his sagehood is not being called into question.

He was an imperfect sage and this is confirmed multiple times, get over it

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya was an imperfect sage whether u like it or not, Jiraiya was a sage, the rings around his eyes are decisive proof of that and his sagehood is not being called into question.
> 
> He was an imperfect sage and this is confirmed multiple times, get over it


Concession accepted

Garbage rebuttal overall -1/10

Now go back to running and crying behind the mods, while telling on someone whenever they hurt your feelings

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 2


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## Platypus (Nov 1, 2017)

Will you two quit it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Platypus (Nov 1, 2017)

Seelentau said:


> There's no perfect Sage Mode, just saying.





Klue said:


> Can you elaborate? And while you're at it, can you briefly explain the difference (if any) between _Sage Mode_ and _Sage Transformation_?





Seelentau said:


> Good that you're asking, Klue. Of course I can elaborate:
> There's no in-universe description of what makes a perfect sage perfect, the fandom just assumes a cut between "almost perfect energy balance" and "perfect energy balance", with the latter being called "perfect sage". However, according to Kabuto's words, the _actual_ cut should be between "can use senjutsu chakra" and "can activate sage transformation/mode".
> Fukasaku doesn't call Naruto a "true sage". What he said is "The Sennin markings have sucessfully appeared. Naruto might be a sage that even surpasses Jiraiya." or something along those lines. He makes no distinction between Naruto's and Jiraiya's Sage Modes. What's more, the same eye markings appear during Jiraiya's transformation as well. The only time something like a distinction was made when (and here I get back to Kabuto's words) Kabuto talked about being a perfect sage and Orochimaru not being able to be that.
> Kabuto's words mean something along the lines of "Not even Orochimaru had attained the requirements to be a perfect sage like me/as I am". My initial problem with the sentence was that I misunderstood what このボクのように modifies. This resulted in a translation which had Kabuto claim neither he nor Orochimaru were able to become perfect sages. This is wrong. Kabuto makes a clear distinction between him - a perfect sage - and Orochimaru - not a perfect sage. Now, the second thing is that Kabuto actually implies that Orochimaru is a sage as well, just not a perfect sage. When I translated Kabuto's words for the first time, I stumbled over the meaning of 仕様, which means "method" or "means". I decided to simply translate it as it was without making any sense of it, but it turned out to be somewhat important for a more accurate translation than the official one. In this sentence, 仕様 is used as a suffix with the meaning of "-specification" or "-ready". So Kabuto literally talks about the "perfect-sage-specifications" that not even Orochimaru has.
> ...





Seelentau said:


> I actually just copied all of that from the explanation I gave some months ago on the Naruto wikia.
> Most of the Japanese part is based on a night-long discussion with Japanese people here (the discussion happened in their chat and is long gone, I guess):

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 1, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Concession accepted
> 
> Garbage rebuttal overall -1/10
> 
> Now go back to running and crying behind the mods, while telling on someone whenever they hurt your feelings


I argue with Troyse on literally everything and i'm on his side here. 

Also, don't forget Orochimaru has his hydra forme, and the fact that while jiraiya got split open by 3 tailed naruto, Oro was standing up, without his arms or jutsu, to 5 tailed naruto.


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)




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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> I argue with Troyse on literally everything and i'm on his side here.
> 
> Also, don't forget Orochimaru has his hydra forme, and the fact that while jiraiya got split open by 3 tailed naruto, Oro was standing up, without his arms or jutsu, to 5 tailed naruto.


Look at the comment above you

Platy already soloed this topic

There's no perfect sage mode

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

@Platypus so he can ask me if i'm stupid?

So I can ask people if they're idiots right? 

Or I can ask them if they're anything right?

After all it would be inconsistent to come after me if you didn't go after him right? 



Serene Grace said:


> Now go back to running and crying behind the mods,



Literally every NBD mod hates me, why the fuck would I hide behind them?



Serene Grace said:


> Concession accepted
> 
> Garbage rebuttal overall -1/10
> 
> Now go back to running and crying behind the mods, while telling on someone whenever they hurt your feelings



Concession accepted.


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## DarkTorrent (Nov 1, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> and the fact that while jiraiya got split open by 3 tailed naruto, Oro was standing up, without his arms or jutsu, to 5 tailed naruto.



KN4 in both cases

the only reason why Oro 'stood up' (more like survived being a chew toy) to KN4 was thanks to regen, regen that Jiraiya doesn't have

both of them were harmed by KN4 attacks, Oro even said that the KN4's bijudama can kill him


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 1, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> Look at the comment above you
> 
> Platy already soloed this topic
> 
> There's no perfect sage mode


1. ok...? There is obviously a major difference between them, as Naruto only got the pigment around the eyes when he mastered it. It's not a scaling difference. There was no pigment, then there was.
2. How does that have anything to do with this argument? We already know Jiraiya has a weaker form of sage mode


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 1, 2017)

DarkTorrent said:


> KN4 in both cases
> 
> the only reason why Oro stood up to KN4 was thanks to regen, regen that Jiraiya doesn't have
> 
> both of them were harmed by KN4 attacks, Oro even said that the KN4's bijudama can kill him


But the point is that Orochimaru was able to not only do better than Jiraiya against a stronger Naruto, but do so without use of his arms/jutsu.


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## Platypus (Nov 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> @Platypus so he can ask me if i'm stupid?



"Will *you two* quit it."​

Reactions: Winner 2


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## DarkTorrent (Nov 1, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> But the point is that Orochimaru was able to not only do better than Jiraiya against a stronger Naruto, but do so without use of his arms/jutsu.



> it wasn't a stronger Naruto, KN4 in both cases
> he didn't do better, Jiraiya actually defeated KN4 by forcing the Kyuubi chakra to recede, all Oro did against KN4 was losing his arms, getting cut in half, then forcing a distance between them and fleeing

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 1, 2017)

Platypus said:


> "Will *you two* quit it."​



Understood, screenshotting this for "consistency"

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Platypus (Nov 1, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Understood, screenshotting this for "consistency"


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## Maverick04 (Nov 1, 2017)

Part 2 Hokage summons Orochimaru>>>>>>>>>>>Yamata no jutsu Orochimaru>=Imperfect Sage Jiraiya>Byakogou Tsunade>=Part1 hokage summon Orochimaru>White snake Orochimaru>Base Orochimaru(before reaper death seal)>Base Jiraiya>Base Tsunade

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Nov 1, 2017)

*— I said 'stop'  —*



Nuttynutdude said:


> 1. ok...? There is obviously a major difference between them, as Naruto only got the pigment around the eyes when he mastered it. It's not a scaling difference. There was no pigment, then there was.
> 2. How does that have anything to do with this argument? We already know Jiraiya has a weaker form of sage mode


What is your point? I didn't argue that Naruto's SM isn't better, just that this perfect and imperfect SM thing, isn't a thing

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 1, 2017)

DarkTorrent said:


> > it wasn't a stronger Naruto, KN4 in both cases
> > he didn't do better, Jiraiya actually defeated KN4 by forcing the Kyuubi chakra to recede, all Oro did against KN4 was losing his arms, getting cut in half, then forcing a distance between them and fleeing


It was a Naruto post Jiraiya training, so yes, it was a stronger naruto

And Jiraiya nearly died from that encounter and did not defeat it in combat, while oro forced it to use a bijuu dama

Also, again, Oro did not have his arms at all. Any jutsu. No summoning, not snakes, no punching even


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## DarkTorrent (Nov 1, 2017)

Nuttynutdude said:


> It was a Naruto post Jiraiya training, so yes, it was a stronger naruto



Naruto's own strength has no bearing on KN4

it's just a certain amount of Kyuubi's chakra, with Naruto having absolutely no control over it



> And Jiraiya nearly died from that encounter and did not defeat it in combat, while oro forced it to use a bijuu dama



yes, because he doesn't have Oro's regen

Jiraiya only got wounded

Oro was cut in half, if he wasn't a regen freak, he would have died then and there

and he did defeat KN4 in combat, what... do you think KN4 just sat there and allowed Jiraiya to suppress it's chakra, even though we know for a fact that was not the case since KN4 wounded Jiraiya, meaning they did indeed battle?



> Also, again, Oro did not have his arms at all. Any jutsu. No summoning, not snakes, no punching even



technically he did have arms, just Sandaime's curse was still affecting them limiting the amount of jutsus he can use

but he did use jutsus, he did use summoning - he summoned the Rashoumon to defend against the bijudama

and Oro was punching KN4 just fine

so I dunno where you are getting that from

Reactions: Winner 5


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## Fiona (Nov 1, 2017)

Personally I would say its Jiraiya. 

Yes Orochimaru defeated him, but Jiraiya never wanted to kill Orochimaru.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 1, 2017)

Part 2 Edo Tensei Oro >>> SM Jiraiya, War arc Tsunade > Part 1 Orochimaru


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## wooly Eullerex (Nov 1, 2017)

even w/o E.T.,  yes 0ro is


although if U asked the same of jiraiya, i'd say yes just as well

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 1, 2017)

Theres no ACTUAL perfect sage mode no...

Only thing id truly call "Perfect SM" or "True SM" would be RSM...But thats just me


But its abundantly clear that you can suck at regular ol SM AND get better or in other words "perfect it" over time 

Hence the fandom dubbing naruto a "perfect sage" and Jman not being one...Theres a visible difference between them for christ sake...And Jmans form is STATED to have been an "Unmastered" or "Incomplete" version...Theres also a disparity in terms of their feats each one respectively accomplises in the mode...But i wont derail the thread by going into detail on that

So we could all start calling naruto a "complete sage" or "mastered sage" and stop throwing the word "perfect" around if the sannin fans want to...

But it wont make Jman look any better...Hes still not in that club...And his SM is still canonically inferior to what the fandom will always refer to as...

"A Perfect Sage"

OT

No

Oro isnt the strongest Sannin unless you give him part 2 ET

And i ABSOULTELY LOATHE putting Oro on a pedestal with "part 2 ET" because all that would amount to would be him hiding behind hus betters while they do all the work for him...And he canonically cant control hashi well (if at all) in top of that.

Outstide of Part 2 ET the sannin stack up pike so imo...

SM Jman>=Oro>Tsunade


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 2, 2017)

DarkTorrent said:


> Naruto's own strength has no bearing on KN4
> 
> it's just a certain amount of Kyuubi's chakra, with Naruto having absolutely no control over it
> 
> ...


Jiraiya didn't get wounded. He said it was one of the 2 times in his life he nearly died. The other time it was spying on Miss 106. 

And Jiraiya's sage mode is offset by Orochimaru's Hydra forme.


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## Zero890 (Nov 2, 2017)

SM Jiraiya >>> Yamata no Jutsu, Oro needs ET to match (overcome with Minato and Tobirama) Jiraiya. Yamata does not have very good feats, the only thing he does is throw all his heads to attack, Senpo Goemon and burn all their heads (Yomi Numa sinks it easy) or Gamatrio beheads all their heads.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Nuttynutdude (Nov 2, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> SM Jiraiya >>> Yamata no Jutsu, Oro needs ET to match (overcome with Minato and Tobirama) Jiraiya. Yamata does not have very good feats, the only thing he does is throw all his heads to attack, Senpo Goemon and burn all their heads (Yomi Numa sinks it easy) or Gamatrio beheads all their heads.


mmm I still think Oro is stronger, but since im in the minority by so much, i'll just sit and watch the debates so i can see whether i missed anything


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2017)

With the Reanimation Jutsu Orochimaru is so far above Jiraiya and Tsunade that it goes from funny to not funny and then to funny again.

Besides that Jutsu, they had similar potential.

Orochimaru _could have been_ the strongest Sannin anyway. Orochimaru was stated to be the most skilled of them when they were younger and Hiruzen admitted that Orochimaru's talent could have surpassed even his knowledge as the Professor; it's simply that Orochimaru's mindset kept him from actually doing such- he only actually dedicated so much of his life to acquiring new Jutsu as he spent a lot of time looking for a body that would let him continue to do such indefinitely before he actually got around to developing more.

At the same time Jiraiya was compatible with Sage Mode and Tsunade was born with Senjuzumaki ancestry. That could offset Orochimaru's genius (I think it did), even in the "what if" scenario where Orochimaru focused on new Jutsu it could have offset some of it because Jiraiya could have apparently gotten better at Sage Mode than he was according to Ma and Pa, and who knows what Tsunade would have been able to accomplish if she hadn't retired from the frontlines for so long.

In the manga and guidebooks they were repeatedly mentioned and referenced as an interchangeable threesome with each receiving seemingly "better" hype than the other two at some point or another throughout the story. Whenever they interacted they were each wary of facing one another, which says something considering the types that they weren't that wary of fighting. They turned out to be an evenly matched group of shinobi, I would say. Any differences regarding the threat that they can represent to the ninja world at large would be minuscule I tell you!

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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 2, 2017)

No, Jiraiya is superior... Although Oro is really close behind.

I don't count ET as it needs prep from Oro and it's situational, otherwise let's all count Konan's paper bombs and she suddenly becomes god level. ET was part of an elaborate warfare plan to destroy anahilate Hiruzen and the rest of Konoha's forces had he succeeded, he doesn't integrate ET into his battles the same way that a Puppet Master like Sasori does. 

Furthermore even if we include ET, he could only control them to an extent that weakened them so much that Hiruzen took on all 3 and tied. Kabuto is superior in this regard.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I don't count ET as it needs prep from Oro and it's situational,



It only requires prep once. Once that's done the prepared ninja can be called at any time just like any regular summoning.



> Furthermore even if we include ET, he could only control them to an extent that weakened them so much that Hiruzen took on all 3 and tied. Kabuto is superior in this regard.



Orochimaru absorbed all of Kabuto's knowledge and improved his precision of the technique in doing such, though.


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## titantron91 (Nov 2, 2017)

Yes. He's also the most resilient, most resourceful, and most imaginative.
Oro is probably the hardest-to-permanently-kill character in the manga.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 2, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> It only requires prep once. Once that's done the prepared ninja can be called at any time just like any regular summoning.



Yep and he lost the Hokage ET after the battle with Hiruzen. Did Jiraiya lose his toad summonings after using them against Oro or were they still part of his regular arsenal? Did Naruto lose SM after using it a single time?

People  confuse battledome versions of the characters who are usually the character in their strongest incarnation during a specific saga, and then there is the actual character's power throughout the manga.




> Orochimaru absorbed all of Kabuto's knowledge and improved his precision of the technique in doing such, though.



What improvements exactly? He never demonstrated he could control as many and when he did revive the Hokage, they all broke lose and gave no shits about Oro.


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## Gohara (Nov 2, 2017)

Jiraiya > Tsunade > Orochimaru in my opinion.


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## trance (Nov 2, 2017)

jiraiya is the strongest

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## JiraiyaFlash (Nov 2, 2017)

With Edo yes he has the strongest army and that makes him most powerful or resourceful Sannin.

But due to talents, feats, abilities, reputation. w/o edo tensei I think Oroc is the least threatful or mightiest in The Sannin.



Troyse22 said:


> He was an imperfect sage and this is confirmed multiple times, get over it


By himself yes Jiraiya is imperfect with Amphibian Sage Art he is perfect. Fukasaku said word of "imperfect"for Naruto too and also wanna fuse with Naruto too and w/o proper fusing Fukasaku said "this is incompleted". 

So... Get over it. Then DB4 gives him what SM Naruto ever have... And he aint has time limit like naruto. And has more sage techniques.. 

He is maybe not Hashirama or War-Arc Naruto when its come to sagehood but he is clearly superior than Pain Arc Naruto who is also stated that only mastered at fundamentals by Fukasaku .

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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 2, 2017)

I think Jiraiya originally has a slightly higher portrayal than Orochimaru or Tsunade. He has a slightly higher overall databook score and was the only one able to learn Sage Mode.

That said, when Orochimaru has access to his perfected Edo Tensei and preparation for his bodies he is certainly stronger than Jiraiya.

Tsunade is still more powerful than Jiraiya or Orochimaru in certain circumstances though. When Orochimaru hasn't already used Edo Tensei, she can kill him. And if Jiraiya isn't able to achieve the prep to perform Sage Mode, he also loses to her.

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## Viole (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> they all broke lose and gave no shits about Oro.




Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaaaa


No.

I guess 2nd trying to run away and then not being able to move one inch like a lil bitch was giving no fucks about oro wahahaha

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## genii96 (Nov 2, 2017)

Oro is the strongest of them


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Yep and he lost the Hokage ET after the battle with Hiruzen.



He got the ability to use them back, so it does not matter. Prior to that Orochimaru did not have full access to his array of Jutsu anyway. Orochimaru was dealing with an _irregular_ condition already.



> Did Jiraiya lose his toad summonings after using them against Oro or were they still part of his regular arsenal? Did Naruto lose SM after using it a single time?



Jiraiya hadn't summoned Gamabunta in a long time prior to the fight against Orochimaru, so why aren't we calling that an abnormality? That's because Jiraiya _can_ summon Gamabunta at any time, just like Orochimaru _can_ summon the Hokage at any time after prepping said Hokage _once_. ET do not get "used up", like Konan's paper bombs do.



> People  confuse battledome versions of the characters who are usually the character in their strongest incarnation during a specific saga, and then there is the actual character's power throughout the manga.



No. It's simply that _we're in the battledome_, where people don't even like to use the strongest incarnation of Orochimaru anyway because it would be too powerful for threads to be entertaining.



> What improvements exactly? He never demonstrated he could control as many and when he did revive the Hokage, they all broke lose and gave no shits about Oro.



He could do everything Kabuto could because he gained Kabuto's know-how with the technique. He never demonstrated he could control as many because he didn't have the DNA of as many ninja on hand; that does not show that he couldn't. Hashirama was the only Hokage who Orochimaru was unable to control. I guess you forgot that Tobirama merely _tried_ to ignore Orochimaru and then got put in time out like a toddler, and that Minato and Hiruzen don't have the advantage of being the inventors of the technique in attempting to break out (Tobirama specifically mentioned it so it is some sort of advantage).

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## Tri (Nov 2, 2017)

With ET? Definitely, no contest.

Without it? I view all the sannin as equal in overall ability, it's important to not just factor in combat ability when considering the characters power as a whole.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## hbcaptain (Nov 2, 2017)

Veracity said:


> They are all equal; or Sage Jirayia, Byakago Tsunade with Katsuyu retcon, and Oro with Part 1 Edo should all relatively be in the same ballpark.


Not P1 Et but Yamato no Jutsu which is his ultimate form just like Byakugou and SM, the creature which is closer to a dragon god (thus Dragon Sage Mode) rather than a snake.


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## King Ramirez (Nov 2, 2017)

Edo Tensei Restricted 
Jiraiya >>> Orochimaru >=Tsunade. Jiraiya has always been naturally the strongest to me.

However if we include Edo Tensei, then Orochimaru is the strongest by far, but i normally do not include ET when comparing these 3.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Charmed (Nov 2, 2017)

TBH I don't think so.
I can agree he is the most hyped of all the Sannin! but he never lived up to his hype.
Sure he does Edo Tensei, but I never take it in count, couse it's a cheap way of getting power. Specially not the Hashirama and Zetsu versions.
(If he could capture Zetsu easily, he would've done it while he was part of the Akatsuki).

He has Hydra form, which is kinda featless and all it did on panel was stay still while Itachi chopped the heads of 1 by 1, no reactions, no speed feats, poor resistance feats, etc.

He's offensive capabilities and lack of AoE and powerful K.G., never impressed me at all.
He does, however, have this tendency to always come back, and vomit himself, but it comes at a very high cost:

I think Jiraiya and Tsunade are better, with Jiraiya being the best among the 3 Sannin.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 2, 2017)

Yes as the canon made that clear.


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## Veracity (Nov 2, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Not P1 Et but Yamato no Jutsu which is his ultimate form just like Byakugou and SM, the creature which is closer to a dragon god (thus Dragon Sage Mode) rather than a snake.



I assumed he had the capability of Yamata back in Part 1.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Orochmaru is  slightly stronger even if you restrict his strongest Justu.

Their bases are roughly equal. However, while all the sannin have transformations, Orochimaru's is the best.

Yin Seal: gives Tsunade self healing that is weaker than Ororchimarus ( Tsunade would die from being cut in half, Weakened orochimaru gives two shits about being cut in half). Tsunade gets increased strength, but wouldn't be able to put Orochi down based on feats)

SM: takes a lot of prep, but gives sensing + increases power significantly. The prep time is extremely problematic in most arenas and is only recent in a hidden rain type set ups and is therefore largely useless  99% of the time.

White Snake: healing above tsunades,  any damage taken releases toxin that paralyzes opponents, allows for possession. Neither Tsunade nor Jiraiya have any way to deal with white snake without getting paralyzed and possessed.

Bases: equal
Transformations: Orochimaru's is the most convenient to use, and the most hax.
Edo Tensei: makes it a stomp

Essentially, take away senju DNA( which most likely allows for Perfect SM- and a massive boost to healing) and an extra 15 years of experience and orochimaru is still the strongest.

Orochimaru can create clones that are able to naturally without training use SM. If anyone truly believes current orochimaru doesn't have perfect SM- they are deluding themselves.

Part 2 Orochimaru with Edo Tensei is the strongest Sannin.

Boruto era Orochimaru logically on Sannin with his senju body and experience.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Zero890 (Nov 2, 2017)

Since when does Yamata release some poison? I do not remember that the DB said that, nor do I remember Itachi poisoned after cutting off their heads.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> Since when does Yamata release some poison? I do not remember that the DB said that, nor do I remember Itachi poisoned after cutting off their heads.



Technically, it doesn't release poisen, just that it's own blood is poisonous. It's just that his blood valporizes with air contact so it spreads like a poisen. Orochimaru literally has poisen running through his veins- kinda fucked up. 


Yamata is Orochimaru's 8 headed serpent, he has another form that is a giant body consisting of thousands of smaller snakes that he calls his true form. It's this form that allows him to posses/paralyze.

Can't upload now but if you don't mind spending 10 secs, it all goes down in manga ch 345 pg 5.

In that same chapter we see orochimaru heal  from being segmented into several pieces.


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## Trojan (Nov 2, 2017)

With ET, he is the strongest out of them. Without it, however, I find him to be the weakest and by far tbh.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Hussain said:


> With ET, he is the strongest out of them. Without it, however, I find him to be the weakest and by far tbh.



I could understand putting SM Jiraiya with ma/pa above orochimaru. But, by far? 

What about Edo restricted Orochi  seems weak to you? His regeneration beats tsunades, and he has possession + poisen hax. 

Ororchimaru needs a mention on that underrated thread that going on.


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## Trojan (Nov 2, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> I could understand putting SM Jiraiya with ma/pa above orochimaru. But, by far?
> 
> What about Edo restricted Orochi  seems weak to you? His regeneration beats tsunades, and he has possession + poisen hax.
> 
> Ororchimaru needs a mention on that underrated thread that going on.




Ever since Part 2 started, Oro became a walking joke basically. While Jiraiya was getting acknowledged by characters left and right and having good battles with the likes of Pain, and Tsunade doing very decently fighting Asspulldara, and 5 to 1 with his Clones we see Oro getting trashed by lolHebi Sasuke and itachi (twice).

Of course, you could argue "Well, Oro did not have his Ninjutsu and was in his "deathbed" when Sasuke attacked" and so on. That may be true, but the guy did not get anything to redeem him at all. Heck, even Karin did better than him against SZ. And Kishi kept using him as a clown and making jokes about his gender and whatnot.


In fact, you could argue that Oro is the entire reason to why the other 2 get underrated. Go to any Vs thread, and the first thing you will see is "Well, Oro sucks and lost as trash. So, the other 2 must suck by default"  anytime anyone wants to undermine the Sannin, Oro is the one who is being brought up. Why do you think that is?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 2, 2017)

Oro beats Jiraiya without arms and people still think he is weaker than Jiraiya or the rest of the Sannin. 

ck

With SM, Kabuto said Oro was a sage and Oro himself said his Senjutsu chakra is within curse seals. So whatever differences between Jiraiya and himself are obviously cancelled out if you include Senjutsu.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Ever since Part 2 started, Oro became a walking joke basically. While Jiraiya was getting acknowledged by characters left and right and having good battles with the likes of Pain, and Tsunade doing very decently fighting Asspulldara, and 5 to 1 with his Clones we see Oro getting trashed by lolHebi Sasuke and itachi (twice).
> 
> Of course, you could argue "Well, Oro did not have his Ninjutsu and was in his "deathbed" when Sasuke attacked" and so on. That may be true, but the guy did not get anything to redeem him at all. Heck, even Karin did better than him against SZ. And Kishi kept using him as a clown and making jokes about his gender and whatnot.
> 
> ...



Yeah kishi shits on Oro, after p1 his hype went downhill. 

End of show he is redeemed?, he is immortal, knows how to create infinite sharingan, can create clones that instinctually use SM, is made of hashirama DNA, and got everything he ever wanted. 

The problem with Oro is that he has no fights. Which is why he is underrated. However, using basic reasoning we can deduce his current standing as the 3rd strongest human in existance- no bloodline, no Hogoromo juice required. 

Karin did better than Hiruzen, hundreds of shinobi, Ohnoki, Mei, and the raikage against the Bhudda. Doing better than Orochi doesn't mean anything. Especially since he didn't use any Justu other than basic fuin during that encounter.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 2, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Yeah kishi shits on Oro, after p1 his hype went downhill.
> 
> End of show he is redeemed?, he is immortal, knows how to create infinite sharingan, can create clones that instinctually use SM, is made of hashirama DNA, and got everything he ever wanted.
> 
> ...




Oro didn't have Ninjutsu for his major one on one battles. And Suigetsu treats them like they'd be a huge difference maker. In terms of what crazy jutsu he is capable of? Well for starters, we know he can take someone's abilities just by absorbing their chakra.


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## Zero890 (Nov 2, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Technically, it doesn't release poisen, just that it's own blood is poisonous. It's just that his blood valporizes with air contact so it spreads like a poisen. Orochimaru literally has poisen running through his veins- kinda fucked up.
> 
> 
> Yamata is Orochimaru's 8 headed serpent, he has another form that is a giant body consisting of thousands of smaller snakes that he calls his true form. It's this form that allows him to posses/paralyze.
> ...



Yes, I know that Oro with its true form produces a poison, but not Yamata no Jutsu (Oro in fact it comes out of one of those heads). In fact that poison only worked to paralyze Sasuke for a very short time (and Sasuke is well below Jiraiya and Tsunade Byakugou).


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I don't count ET as it needs prep from Oro and it's situational, otherwise let's all count Konan's paper bombs and she suddenly becomes god level.


 Prep arguments are always weird to me. It's like saying Minato doesn't have kunai because he has to make them or Sasori forgot all his puppets at home.

Both in the manga or battle dome it's odd to presume a shinobi would leave for battle unprepared unless it's in the stipulations.
Especially when it's a power they are known for.



Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Yin Seal: gives Tsunade self healing that is weaker than Ororchimarus ( Tsunade would die from being cut in half,



Tsunade got cut in half in cannon and wasn't particularly concerned about it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> Yes, I know that Oro with its true form produces a poison, but not Yamata no Jutsu (Oro in fact it comes out of one of those heads). In fact that poison only worked to paralyze Sasuke for a very short time (and Sasuke is well below Jiraiya and Tsunade Byakugou).



CSM v2 Sasuke poison resistance isn't any different than Tsunade or Jiraiya. Streangth doesn't matter in regards to poison. The duration doesn't matter either. If orochimaru could absorb Sasuke while he was paralyzed, he could absorb Jiraiya or Tsunade too. And they don't have sharingan to counter.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 2, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> He got the ability to use them back, so it does not matter. Prior to that Orochimaru did not have full access to his array of Jutsu anyway. Orochimaru was dealing with an _irregular_ condition already.



Wrong, he revived them in order to advance the plot and have the Hokage enter the final battle. It was not some calculated "I gonna augment my power with the Hokage" move that was meant to be part of his arsenal.




> Jiraiya hadn't summoned Gamabunta in a long time prior to the fight against Orochimaru, so why aren't we calling that an abnormality? That's because Jiraiya _can_ summon Gamabunta at any time, just like Orochimaru _can_ summon the Hokage at any time after prepping said Hokage _once_. ET do not get "used up", like Konan's paper bombs do.



Nope. Oro summoned them once into battle and lost them all. Then he found a way to revive the Hokage again and once again they went their separate ways.



> No. It's simply that _we're in the battledome_, where people don't even like to use the strongest incarnation of Orochimaru anyway because it would be too powerful for threads to be entertaining.



Orochimaru's strongest incarnation basically lost against Hiruzen while having *Hashi *and *Tobi*. Against *old Hiruze*n.



> *He could do everything Kabuto could because he gained Kabuto's know-how with the technique*. He never demonstrated he could control as many because he didn't have the DNA of as many ninja on hand; that does not show that he couldn't. Hashirama was the only Hokage who Orochimaru was unable to control. I guess you forgot that Tobirama merely _tried_ to ignore Orochimaru and then got put in time out like a toddler, and that Minato and Hiruzen don't have the advantage of being the inventors of the technique in attempting to break out (Tobirama specifically mentioned it so it is some sort of advantage).



Seems more like speculation to me, but I wouldn't mind considering it if you point me to the right panels implying that. Know how doesn't always help when some Ninja are genetically superior to handle certain Jutsu no matter how much "know how" they get.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Prep arguments are always weird to me. It's like saying Minato doesn't have kunai because he has to make them or Sasori forgot all his puppets at home.
> 
> Both in the manga or battle dome it's odd to presume a shinobi would leave for battle unprepared unless it's in the stipulations.
> Especially when it's a power they are known for.
> ...



I was directly comparing Yin Seal healing, to SM, to White Snake healing. Not katsuyu healing. 

Without Katsuyu, Tsunade would have died, she couldn't even move, she had to have katsuyu bring the kage to her. 

If orochimaru was the one cut in half by the tee, he would laugh it off and heal immediately. If Tsunade healing was on the same level, she wouldn't need katsuyu.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 2, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Prep arguments are always weird to me. It's like saying Minato doesn't have kunai because he has to make them or Sasori forgot all his puppets at home.
> 
> Both in the manga or battle dome it's odd to presume a shinobi would leave for battle unprepared unless it's in the stipulations.
> Especially when it's a power they are known for.
> ...



Does Minato have to go out there, sacrifice people, and get DNA to use his Kunai? Or were they part of his regular arsenal?

ET was not part of Oro's regular arsenal, he was not known around the world as "Orochimaru of the Edo Tensei". 

It's a situational jutsu he used to seal his chances of victory during warfare. Furthermore he lost them in the same battle against Old Hiruzen, not even someone like Nagato.

Anyways, if you wanna consider situational one time use Jutsu as part of the regular power of a Shinobi then Oro would be so far behind that it wouldn't even be funny. The likes of Billion paper bomb Konan and Crow Itachi rek him neg diff.


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## Zero890 (Nov 2, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> CSM v2 Sasuke poison resistance isn't any different than Tsunade or Jiraiya. Streangth doesn't matter in regards to poison. The duration doesn't matter either. If orochimaru could absorb Sasuke while he was paralyzed, he could absorb Jiraiya or Tsunade too. And they don't have sharingan to counter.



Yep, from now on I'm also going to believe that Kurama, Hashirama, Itachi and many more could not with Orochimaru's paralysis because they did not show any resistance to the poisons ... In fact Jiraiya will not even cut him, it's not his style. The Ninjas with will and resistance without being able to oppose the poisons like Naruto opposing the poison of Sakura or Chiyo opposing the poison of Sasori (which is more powerful than the poison of Orochimaru and Chiyo that does not have the same capacity of Jiraiya or Tsunade could keep moving).


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Wrong, he revived them in order to advance the plot and have the Hokage enter the final battle. It was not some calculated "I gonna augment my power with the Hokage" move that was meant to be part of his arsenal.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



ororchimaru being made of senju DNA, means his genetics don't get much better. 

Ch 618  pg 14. Orochimaru mentions that after absorbing chakra from Kabuto, he got the memories that Kabuto had since Kabuto stole his chakra. ( before he war started). 

Ch 593 pg 8 

After his revival orochimaru states that he knows about the war because he can perceive the world even as a split consciousness. Basically, if you have orochimaru chakra, he will be aware of what's happening through you.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 2, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> ororchimaru being made of senju DNA, means his genetics don't get much better.
> 
> Ch 618  pg 14. Orochimaru mentions that after absorbing chakra from Kabuto, he got the memories that Kabuto had since Kabuto stole his chakra. ( before he war started).
> 
> ...



Zetsus are made of Hashirama DNA. You know the white goo that was fodder to fodders?

Still nothing implying Oro became as proficient nor has he shown anything to prove that.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Zero890 said:


> Yep, from now on I'm also going to believe that Kurama, Hashirama, Itachi and many more could not with Orochimaru's paralysis because they did not show any resistance to the poisons ... In fact Jiraiya will not even cut him, it's not his style. The Ninjas with will and resistance without being able to oppose the poisons like Naruto opposing the poison of Sakura or Chiyo opposing the poison of Sasori (which is more powerful than the poison of Orochimaru and Chiyo that does not have the same capacity of Jiraiya or Tsunade could keep moving).



Im not the authority on poison resistance, but I'm preety sure that's how it works. Kuruma's size makes him immune, or slow to effect. But everyone else mentioned should be effected.

As far as I know, poison bypasses durability. Of course, NLF is in effect so saying orochimaru bodies kaguya and takes her over is a stretch. But Jiraiya and Tsuande aren't leaps and bounds above orochimaru to the point where his techniques can be ignored 

Jiraiya cutting is not really important. It's Orochimaru's blood that's the paralyzingly agent- there is no way Jiraiya is killing orochimaru without making him bleed.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Zetsus are made of Hashirama DNA. You know the white goo that was fodder to fodders?
> 
> Still nothing implying Oro became as proficient nor has he shown anything to prove that.



All we know is that orochimaru is aware of everything Kabuto did post his "death" when Kabuto absorbed him. 

It doesn't prove anything, other than orochimaru being knowledgable on sage mode and various of kabutos Justu. His proficiency is unknown. 

Tobirama stated that orochimaru being made of senju DNA gave him a boost to his power. When Obito got a zetsu implant he gained some preety obscene boosts- no reason to think orochimaru is any different.


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## Veracity (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Orochimaru's strongest incarnation basically lost against Hiruzen while having *Hashi *and *Tobi*. Against *old Hiruze*n.


Donno about this. Not only did Oro actually beat Hiruzen( loss of arms> death) but he was toying with Hiruzen the entire time. Hence the lack of boss summons or high tier skills like Oral Rebirth, Yamata, etc. Oro was position to kill Hiruzen many times yet decided to talk shit and gloat the entire time. Oro was definitely the superior combatant during that battle.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 2, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Wrong



No, it is not. He couldn't have done it without getting the ability to do it back, obviously, and having a specific goal in mind at that time doesn't mean that he wouldn't do it again. The guy was revealed to carry around their DNA so how OOC can it really be?



> Nope. Oro summoned them once into battle and lost them all. Then he found a way to revive the Hokage again and once again they went their separate ways.



And this would be irrelevant given Orochimaru retrieving the ability to revive them as well as the fact that reanimated ninja do not get used up, as stated.



> Orochimaru's strongest incarnation basically lost against Hiruzen while having *Hashi *and *Tobi*. Against *old Hiruze*n.



Puh-lease.

Orochimaru's strongest incarnation was the one we saw during the Fourth Great Ninja War, and Orochimaru vs Hiruzen was a boring game for Orochimaru. Hashirama and Tobirama were weaker at the time, and yet were able to put Hiruzen on the defensive every time they made a move even while Orochimaru himself merely stood there and laughed. Orochimaru could have easily let Hashirama wring Hiruzen's neck with the first explosion of Mokuton, and could have had Hiruzen offed immediately after Kokuangyo. That is without even considering that before learning Orochimaru had learned how to reanimate them Hiruzen admitted that he would t be able to beat the guy.



> Seems more like speculation to me, but I wouldn't mind considering it if you point me to the right panels implying that. Know how doesn't always help when some Ninja are genetically superior to handle certain Jutsu no matter how much "know how" they get.



On my phone so it'd have to wait a while to actually find out which pages they're on, but it's hardly speculative. It's outright stated that Orochimaru upped his Jutsu to where the Hokage were brought back at nearly full power, something Kabuto didn't surpass with Madara despite adding to the guy. That was before Orochimaru even transferred to the Zetsu body, and Tobirama himself commented on the Zetsu body, i.e.- Kabuto's genetics are irrelevant.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 3, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> No, it is not. He couldn't have done it without getting the ability to do it back, obviously, and having a specific goal in mind at that time doesn't mean that he wouldn't do it again. The guy was revealed to carry around their DNA so how OOC can it really be?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Orochimaru's summoning on the 4th War were not meant for combat but even if you were to argue that it was, Oro stated that Hashi could easily escape anytime he wanted. So what's gonna happen in a fight is that Oro is gonna get rekked by his own summoning. Really it's no different than the draw backs that other techniques have.

War Arc Oro with arms exists. War arc Oro ready for battle with 4 Edo Kage that he can't even fully control with 100% chance of Hashirama breaking free and snapping his neck is fanfic.



> On my phone so it'd have to wait a while to actually find out which pages they're on, but it's hardly speculative. It's outright stated that Orochimaru upped his Jutsu to where the Hokage were brought back at nearly full power, something Kabuto didn't surpass with Madara despite adding to the guy. That was before Orochimaru even transferred to the Zetsu body, and Tobirama himself commented on the Zetsu body, i.e.- Kabuto's genetics are irrelevant.



Hashirama was not even close  to full power, even Madara states it.



Veracity said:


> Donno about this. Not only did Oro actually beat Hiruzen( loss of arms> death) but he was toying with Hiruzen the entire time. Hence the lack of boss summons or high tier skills like Oral Rebirth, Yamata, etc. Oro was position to kill Hiruzen many times yet decided to talk shit and gloat the entire time. Oro was definitely the superior combatant during that battle.



Never said Hiruzen was stronger than Oro. The fact that Orochimaru was not able to stop Hiruzen from doing what he did to his arms even when toying with him says a lot. He was forced to run away defeated and his plans crumbled, while having 2 Edo Hokages who should have been able to* easily* change the tide of the battle, but instead got sealed.

Just goes to show how nerfed and ineffective the Edo Kages were, while we know that in reality a Tobi and Hashi would dispose of Hiruzen with no mayor trouble if it was 2vs1.


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## Hi no Ishi (Nov 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Does Minato have to go out there, sacrifice people, and get DNA to use his Kunai? Or were they part of his regular arsenal?


 No, but he does not create them on the spot by magic either.

Does anyone say Minato must stop and draw the formula on each Kunai?
Or Sasori that has to stop and make puppets at the beginning of fights? 
No. 

Every shinobi does things to get ready for battle, but people like to nerf characters to fit a certain power level so fights aren't as easy for them.

It's why Koto, ET, Paper Ocean, and are almost always restricted or the other side given some sort of counter like sealing tags.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> ET was not part of Oro's regular arsenal, he was not known around the world as "Orochimaru of the Edo Tensei".


Rasa, who died before the Konoha crush, knew it as Orochimaru's jutsu. Also he used it both times it wasn't sealed and he had an actual fight.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> It's a situational jutsu he used to seal his chances of victory during warfare. Furthermore he lost them in the same battle against Old Hiruzen, not even someone like Nagato.


Every jutsu is used to secure victory normally lol. 
And he lost it to the person considered the strongest of the Gokage at the time who needed a suicide jutsu to do it because until they started handing out sealing tags like candy in the 4th war pain was the only one so could deal with ET. 
Which is why it's always restricted.


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Anyways, if you wanna consider situational one time use Jutsu as part of the regular power of a Shinobi then Oro would be so far behind that it wouldn't even be funny. The likes of Billion paper bomb Konan and Crow Itachi rek him neg diff.


ET isn't really situational. You can use it or you can't. 
Konan isn't likely to have a whole ocean with her at all times but the time line on its creation and her she can produce tons of paper per second.
Sorry she has a scary ability, but it's still her ability.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 3, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> No, but he does not create them on the spot by magic either.
> 
> Does anyone say Minato must stop and draw the formula on each Kunai?
> Or Sasori that has to stop and make puppets at the beginning of fights?
> No.




Did Minato lose his Kunai's after his first usage of said Kunai?

How Many times did Oro use ET in battle after getting his shit pushed in by Hiruzen?



> Every shinobi does things to get ready for battle, but people like to nerf characters to fit a certain power level so fights aren't as easy for them.
> 
> It's why Koto, ET, Paper Ocean, and are almost always restricted or the other side given some sort of counter like sealing tags.
> 
> ...



Link?



> Every jutsu is used to secure victory normally lol.
> And he lost it to the person considered the strongest of the Gokage at the time who needed a suicide jutsu to do it because until they started handing out sealing tags like candy in the 4th war pain was the only one so could deal with ET.
> Which is why it's always restricted.
> 
> ...



Yep, Oro used it once and that was the end of it. Humiliated by Hiruzen considering the Shinobi he had at hand to turn the battle around at any point.

Jiraya still reks Oro and his 2 10% power puppets with no issues.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Orochimaru's summoning on the 4th War were not meant for combat



How else would they help in the war if not through combat? If they weren't intended to be used in combat Orochimaru would have de-summoned them.



> but even if you were to argue that it was, Oro stated that Hashi could easily escape anytime he wanted. So what's gonna happen in a fight is that Oro is gonna get rekked by his own summoning. Really it's no different than the draw backs that other techniques have.



And? Jiraiya has trouble controlling Gamabunta, and the toad chieftain didn't even show up for Naruto when he attempted to summon him in part 2. Does that mean Gamabunta doesn't count?

Orochimaru can simply summon the other three without Hashirama anyway.



> Hashirama was not even close  to full power, even Madara states it.



Madara states that Hashirama was not at full power, not that he was not even close to it. Tobirama explicitly states the opposite of that, too.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Nov 3, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> How else would they help in the war if not through combat? If they weren't intended to be used in combat Orochimaru would have de-summoned them.



Oro summoned them to give Sasuke answers. Did you even read the Manga?
Hashi freed himself and wanted to help in the war? What was Oro going to do about it? nothing. He became Sasuke's lapdog. 




> And? Jiraiya has trouble controlling Gamabunta, and the toad chieftain didn't even show up for Naruto when he attempted to summon him in part 2. Does that mean Gamabunta doesn't count?
> 
> Orochimaru can simply summon the other three without Hashirama anyway.



Gamabunta and co is not going to go Rogue and snap his neck. In fact, I didn't see any issues when he fought Pain and summoned the big toad.

Also good luck on controlling the other 3 when Oro did not even create Talismans to take control of them. At best he can restrain them. So like I said, fanfic.



> Madara states that Hashirama was not at full power, not that he was not even close to it. Tobirama explicitly states the opposite of that, too.



Had he been even close to full power then Madara would have given a shit about him.


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## Veracity (Nov 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Never said Hiruzen was stronger than Oro. The fact that Orochimaru was not able to stop Hiruzen from doing what he did to his arms even when toying with him says a lot. He was forced to run away defeated and his plans crumbled, while having 2 Edo Hokages who should have been able to* easily* change the tide of the battle, but instead got sealed.
> 
> Just goes to show how nerfed and ineffective the Edo Kages were, while we know that in reality a Tobi and Hashi would dispose of Hiruzen with no mayor trouble if it was 2vs1.



No but you said " Oro basically lost" completely ignoring the stipulations of said battle. Oro didn't basically lose anything and he was toying with Hiruzen from the start. His constant gloating, need to humiliate Hiruzen and absence of higher tiered techniques when *we know* he can use them all lead towards them battle being that close. There were multiple opportunities for Oro to take Hiruzen out be he rather would have watched him struggle; Hell, Oro had Hiruzen at Kunai-to-the-throat at match start yet chose to toy with him.

The Edo Kage were clearly nerfed but not as much as many think because many completely ignore Part 1 inflation. The point is hardly ever that somebody can take on the Edo Kage themselves it's the Edo Kage + Oro + boss summons, etc. that's crazy.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Oro summoned them to give Sasuke answers. Did you even read the Manga?
> Hashi freed himself and wanted to help in the war? What was Oro going to do about it? nothing. He became Sasuke's lapdog.



I read the manga and in the manga it was up to Orochimaru whether or not he was actually going to go along with Sasuke.

"What is your plan? Orochimaru, was it?" "I believe you said earlier you would stick with Sasuke?" "... // Of course we shall accompany him." "What?!!" (chapter 627 page 6)

Own free will.



> Gamabunta and co is not going to go Rogue and snap his neck.



Gamabunta can go rogue and decide not to help, as he did with Naruto. Revenge for Jiraiya was on the line when they fought Pain.



> Also good luck on controlling the other 3 when Oro did not even create Talismans to take control of them. At best he can restrain them. So like I said, fanfic.



Said talismans only need to be prepared once as well. The talismans only determine how much of the personality of the reanimated ninja is retained, they aren't necessary to control them at all.

Remember what Orochimaru said earlier: "I may use all of you to destroy Konoha now. // The timing couldn't be better." (chapter 620 page 9)

You're the one writing fanfiction here in order to downplay Orochimaru.



> Had he been even close to full power then Madara would have given a shit about him.



In other words Madara said no such thing. Okay.

Madara did care. It was Hashirama's clone that Madara didn't care about.


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## Doskoi Panda (Nov 3, 2017)

Jiraiya can take him


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## Gianfi (Nov 3, 2017)

I think Jman is the strongest tbh, he would high diff oro imo


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## Azula (Nov 3, 2017)

No he is not. 

His body is not capable of handling Sage Mode training, he is not a sage mode user like kabuto and gets by with using a cheap knock-off of Juugo juice. He is not in the same league as (Pein arc) Naruto/Jiraiya/Kabuto as far as SM usage is concerned.

His body modifications are not nearly enough to make up for the gap. He has some powerful abilities but every Kage level has powerful abilities. He doesn't stand out very much from others.

His intelligence is irrelevant by now, Kishi set up the "genius vs hard worker" theme such that hard worker type character ends up closing the gap and surpassing the other. During the War Arc Naruto spotted crucial details and his quick thinking saved all of them making Sasuke look dull by comparision.
Sheer experience and training > born genius.
Jiraiya has achieved so much in ninjutsu and senjutsu and battle tactics that their initial standings are irrelevant by now.

His Edo Tensei use fluctuates wildly, summoning weak Edos, not being able to summon at all due to RDS or summoning Edos that he can't control. And he also died and had to be revived between these.

All of his other scheming and research are irrelevant if they do not have direct application in battle. We don't discuss Jiraiya's novel writing ability and bank balance when arguing he is > other Sannin now do we.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Symmetry (Nov 5, 2017)

Its between either oro or tsunade cant really say for sure all i know is that its not jiriya

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## hbcaptain (Nov 5, 2017)

Orochimaru op said:


> Its between either oro or tsunade cant really say for sure all i know is that its not jiriya


You're courageous.


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## Itachі (Nov 5, 2017)

Orochimaru op said:


> Its between either oro or tsunade cant really say for sure all i know is that its not jiriya



Why do you say that?


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## hbcaptain (Nov 5, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> (Pein arc) Naruto/Jiraiya/Kabuto


Kabuto is two tiers above the other two, yet he only surpassed Oro because of SM.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 5, 2017)

Oro. Owned. Jiraiya. Without. Arms. And. Without. Ninjutsu. 

Kishimoto could not make this more clear. ck

Reactions: Winner 1


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## oiety (Nov 5, 2017)

Boruto Orochimaru should logically be the strongest given his continued research with the inherent sage mode present in the clones he's made.

However, before series end, let's take the final versions. Pain fight Jiraiya, Madara fight Tsunade, Guruguru fight Orochimaru. For me it's Jiraiya>Orochimaru>=Tsunade, not including edo tensei. They aren't super far from one another, though I think Jiraiya is solidly above both given the emphasis on natural energy in this manga. If we only discuss the base stats of the characters, though, I'd think it's Orochimaru>Tsunade=Jiraiya, as Byakugo and Sage Mode seem much more useful than Yamata from my POV. Finally, without summonings I'd say it's solidly Tsunade>Orochimaru=Jiraiya, given that Tsunade rarely even uses Katsuyu offensively, whereas Orochimaru is constantly spitting up snakes and Jiraiya throwing out toads rather frequently.

TLDR : With Edo Tensei he obviously is, and I'd say his Base state is the strongest too. Factoring in different forms, nah, no way.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 5, 2017)

oiety said:


> I think Jiraiya is solidly above both given the emphasis on natural energy in this manga. If we only discuss the base stats of the characters, though, I'd think it's Orochimaru>Tsunade=Jiraiya, as Byakugo and Sage Mode seem much more useful than Yamata from my POV.



Orochimaru could use Senjutsu chakra. Like Jiraiya, he wasn't a perfect Sage.


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## oiety (Nov 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Orochimaru could use Senjutsu chakra. Like Jiraiya, he wasn't a perfect Sage.



Yes, but unfortunately for Orochimaru he never showed any Snakes similar enough to Ma and Pa to gather NE for him, or even a Sage form at all. As a result, when we discuss pre-Boruto Naruto my opinion is solidly that of the Sannin, only Jiraiya is a Sage.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 5, 2017)

oiety said:


> Yes, but unfortunately for Orochimaru he never showed any Snakes similar enough to Ma and Pa to gather NE for him, or even a Sage form at all. As a result, when we discuss pre-Boruto Naruto my opinion is solidly that of the Sannin, only Jiraiya is a Sage.



CS chakra = his chakra and that is Senjutsu chakra. Kabuto flatout said that unlike Oro, he is a pefect sage... implying Oro is a sage, but not perfect. Then Oro confirms it by saying he's been giving his Senjutsu chakra to potential hosts.


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## Doc Mindstorm (Nov 5, 2017)

Itachi is stronger than Oro - toyed with him as with loser, humiliating him and making him obsessed with himself(just like Deidara) as per canon. Itachi sure even together with Kisame best thing they can achieve against Jman is mutual death as per canon. Without ET Oro is weakest by far.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## Kai (Nov 5, 2017)

Yes, because Orochimaru eventually regained both of his arms and had the Edo Hokage (but one) under his command at the height of his power. 

I'd still think Orochimaru w/ both arms > J-man.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Funny 2


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 5, 2017)

In terms of one on one fighting strength

Orochimaru with Edo Tensei>SM Jiraiya>Orochimaru with Zetsu body>Orochimaru with part one body=>Base Jiraiya>Tsunade>Rusty Tsunade>Armless Orochimaru=>Poisoned Jiraiya>Blood Phobia Rusty Tsunade.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## A Optimistic (Nov 5, 2017)

I seem to recall Itachi fodderizing Orochimaru and Itachi running away from Jiraya.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Neutral 1


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## A Optimistic (Nov 5, 2017)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Tsunade is still more powerful than Jiraiya or Orochimaru in certain circumstances though.



Yeah when Jiraya is on drugs or when Orochimaru doesn't have access to hands then sure Tsunade is more powerful.

Other then that....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Nov 5, 2017)

A said:


> Yeah when Jiraya is on drugs or when Orochimaru doesn't have access to hands then sure Tsunade is more powerful.
> 
> Other then that....


Or in a support role. Jiraiya and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei would have done a worse job against Madara given that they couldn't restore the Gokage.


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## A Optimistic (Nov 5, 2017)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Or in a support role. Jiraiya and Orochimaru without Edo Tensei would have done a worse job against Madara given that they couldn't restore the Gokage.


Well of course a medic is going to a better support role then non-medics.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 6, 2017)

A said:


> Yeah when Jiraya is on drugs or when Orochimaru doesn't have access to hands then sure Tsunade is more powerful.
> 
> Other then that....



Healthy Jiraiya without Sage Mode doesn't have the means to kill Tsunade very easily, especially not if he's fighting her in an enclosed space.

Armed Orochimaru gets clobbered to death by Tsunade if he doesn't have Edo Tensei.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Azula (Nov 6, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Orochimaru could use Senjutsu chakra. Like Jiraiya, he wasn't a perfect Sage.



Using Juugo derived curse seal doesn't make anyone a Sage. Orochimaru is no more a Sage Mode user than CS sasuke is.

Orochimaru went to Ryuuchido for SM but his body couldn't handle it so he didn't even make past the beginning of Sage Mode training unlike Kabuto who we saw training with the White Snake.

Saying Orochimaru is the same as Jiraiya is like saying the guy who got 5/100 in a test is the same as the guy who got 90/100 because they both couldn't get 100. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto flatout said that unlike Oro, he is a pefect sage



Kabuto is a fool.

The definition of the perfect sage is the one who is able to balance perfectly all the physical/mental/ natural energies such that there are no animal transformations.

Naruto-Minato-Hashirama are perfect sages, they don't get any animal transformations apart from the rings surrounding the eyes.

Jiraiya gets some Frog features while Kabuto gets the horns.

Don't take every villainous boast literally.

Reactions: Like 3


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## hbcaptain (Nov 6, 2017)

-Itachi defeated Oro in a one sided battle.
-Oro stated Jiraya is no match for him in front of him
-Itachi told to Akatuski that he would tie with Jiraya whilst he was a Konoha spy
-According to both the manga&Databook, Sannin as peers and only a sannin can beat a sannin.
Well, unless some points are deliberately forgotten, the conclusion is pretty clear.


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## Troyse22 (Nov 6, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> -Itachi defeated Oro in a one sided battle.
> -Oro stated Jiraya is no match for him in front of him
> -Itachi told to Akatuski that he would tie with Jiraya whilst he was a Konoha spy
> -According to both the manga&Databook, Sannin as peers and only a sannin can beat a sannin.
> Well, unless some points are deliberately forgotten, the conclusion is pretty clear.



I love some of the people who tout that the Sannin are absolute equals, but they suddenly forget that when it comes to Itachi

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 6, 2017)

-Azula- said:


> Using Juugo derived curse seal doesn't make anyone a Sage. Orochimaru is no more a Sage Mode user than CS sasuke is.
> 
> Orochimaru went to Ryuuchido for SM but his body couldn't handle it so he didn't even make past the beginning of Sage Mode training unlike Kabuto who we saw training with the White Snake.
> 
> Saying Orochimaru is the same as Jiraiya is like saying the guy who got 5/100 in a test is the same as the guy who got 90/100 because they both couldn't get 100.



Using Senjutsu chakra without losing control makes one a Sage. Oro's chakra was Senjutsu chakra and Kabuto confirmed that Oro wasn't a perfect Sage. 

Like Jiraiya, Oro couldn't perfect SM. 



> Kabuto is a fool.
> 
> The definition of the perfect sage is the one who is able to balance perfectly all the physical/mental/ natural energies such that there are no animal transformations.
> 
> ...



Kabuto's a fool because he doesn't support your view? 

You made up the "no animal transformations" part. Kabuto is a perfect Sage, as per canon. Naruto and Hashirama were too. Minato was not, he considered his SM level inferior to Jiraiya.

Villianous boasts aren't invalid because they strengthen Oro>Jiraiya.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 6, 2017)

Orochimaru was not labeled a Sage in databook 4 like Jiraiya was...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 7, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Orochimaru was not labeled a Sage in databook 4 like Jiraiya was...



Sasuke and Kakashi weren't labelled in databook 4 like Madara was....

Kabuto said Oro couldn't be a perfect Sage and Oro said his *Senjutsu *chakra is in the Curse Seals. Don't know how much clearer it can be.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Sasuke and Kakashi weren't labelled in databook 4 like Madara was....



Weren't labeled what like Madara was? Users of a particular move? The databooks have never listed every user of every move.

Missing an icon on your personal page is different than not being listed on a page focused elsewhere.



> Kabuto said Oro couldn't be a perfect Sage and Oro said his *Senjutsu *chakra is in the Curse Seals. Don't know how much clearer it can be.



Kabuto said Orochimaru's body was unable to tolerate the power of Sage Mode. What Kabuto confirmed was not that Orochimaru was not a _perfect_ Sage...he confirmed that Orochimaru _was not a Sage_. Orochimaru couldn't perfect Sage Mode because he didn't have it to begin with.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 7, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Weren't labeled what like Madara was? Users of a particular move? The databooks have never listed every user of every move.
> 
> Missing an icon on your personal page is different than not being listed on a page focused elsewhere.



There were only 3 users to list and it even listed a feat that Sasuke and Kakashi did which Madara didn't (flight)...

Speaking of icons, Madara doesn't have the Kekkei Mora icon despite having the same eye as Kaguya while Hagoromo possesses it. 
Basically, like always the manga first, databook second.



> Kabuto said Orochimaru's body was unable to tolerate the power of Sage Mode. What Kabuto confirmed was not that Orochimaru was not a _perfect_ Sage...he confirmed that Orochimaru _was not a Sage_. Orochimaru couldn't perfect Sage Mode because he didn't have it to begin with.



He went as far as to say unlike Oro he became a perfect Sage. He said Oro couldn't become a perfect Sage, not that Oro couldn't become a Sage. Then Oro goes on to say he uses Senjutsu chakra in his seals. Only Sages can control and use Senjutsu chakra in a controlled manner.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 7, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There were only 3 users to list and it even listed a feat that Sasuke and Kakashi did which Madara didn't (flight)...



There's still precedent for not including that many. We only saw two people use Kaiten in part 1, but only one of them was listed in the databook as a user of the Jutsu.



> Speaking of icons, Madara doesn't have the Kekkei Mora icon despite having the same eye as Kaguya while Hagoromo possesses it.
> Basically, like always the manga first, databook second.



The databook is being used to evaluate your interpretation of the manga, though.



> He went as far as to say unlike Oro he became a perfect Sage. He said Oro couldn't become a perfect Sage, not that Oro couldn't become a Sage.



He said Orochimaru sought out the origins of Jūgo's power. That power originated from Sage Mode. That is the power Orochimaru was unable to tolerate, so Orochimaru couldn't have been a Sage. Saying "unlike Orochimaru" doesn't imply that Orochimaru was an imperfect Sage, as it would still be unlike Orochimaru if Orochimaru hadn't been a Sage at all.



> Then Oro goes on to say he uses Senjutsu chakra in his seals. Only Sages can control and use Senjutsu chakra in a controlled manner.



Tell that to Madara.

How much of a controlled manner does it really need to be in when it relies on the reaction of a bodily fluid of Jūgo's? Seems like doing it at all would let it work itself out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 8, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> There's still precedent for not including that many. We only saw two people use Kaiten in part 1, but only one of them was listed in the databook as a user of the Jutsu.



Which in-itself outlines that manga first, databook second.



> The databook is being used to evaluate your interpretation of the manga, though.



It is just supplementary information. If there's a contradiction with it and the actual story, the story wins.



> He said Orochimaru sought out the origins of Jūgo's power. That power originated from Sage Mode. That is the power Orochimaru was unable to tolerate, so Orochimaru couldn't have been a Sage. Saying "unlike Orochimaru" doesn't imply that Orochimaru was an imperfect Sage, as it would still be unlike Orochimaru if Orochimaru hadn't been a Sage at all.



Then he outright said that Oro couldn't become a perfect Sage, not that Oro couldn't become a Sage then Orochimaru outright says the Curse Seals possess his Senjutsu chakra....



> Tell that to Madara.
> 
> How much of a controlled manner does it really need to be in when it relies on the reaction of a bodily fluid of Jūgo's? Seems like doing it at all would let it work itself out.



Madara did achieve Sage Mode, though.

Not using it in a controlled manner results in what happens to Juugo when he goes HAM and all those CS2 fodder in Oro's hideout. Oro was able to use it in a controlled manner, insofar he could use it to power up people.

The very fact Kabuto said Oro wasn't a perfect Sage while implying Oro is a Sage and Oro saying his Senjutsu chakra is present within the Curse Seals is more than enough to conclude he could use Senjutsu. A Senjutsu user is considered to be a Sage.

Basically, SM isn't going to be this difference maker for Jiraiya. Jiraiya can try to enter, Oro would sense the energy and end him.


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## Blaze Release (Nov 8, 2017)

A pattern i have noticed is that when people argue who is the strongest sannin, those in favour of jiraiya like to mention sage mode. Its true that sage mode is a power up that jiraiya has and the other two do not. However this power up that jiraiya has doesn't mean that the other 2 need the same power up to equal jiraiya's. Perhaps those arguing sm is because all 3 had links via their summoning contract to potentially gain this power and only jiraiya did. We already know that Orochimaru couldn't, but we do not have a reason for Tsunade.

Anyway these 2 do not need sm to equal jiraiya.
As nagato stated during his fight with Jiraiya that all 3 have their own unique skill/power.

We have seen all 3 sannins at their 'heightened' forms.
Jiraiya is his sm.
Tsunade its her Byakugo.
Orochimaru its his Yamata no Jutsu.

Its a shame we didn't get to see much of what orochimaru's yamato no jutsu form can do.
However it has been stated to be his strongest form or strongest jutsu.

But yes i do believe that Jiriaya's imperfect sm form is equivalent to the two's strongest forms.

I tend not to count edo tensei as the summonings power.
So with that excluded i do believe the sannins are equal after all.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Nov 8, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> So with that excluded i do believe the sannins are equal after all.



So they're all inferior to Itachi?


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> A pattern i have noticed is that when people argue who is the strongest sannin, those in favour of jiraiya like to mention sage mode. Its true that sage mode is a power up that jiraiya has and the other two do not. However this power up that jiraiya has doesn't mean that the other 2 need the same power up to equal jiraiya's. Perhaps those arguing sm is because all 3 had links via their summoning contract to potentially gain this power and only jiraiya did. We already know that Orochimaru couldn't, but we do not have a reason for Tsunade.
> 
> Anyway these 2 do not need sm to equal jiraiya.
> As nagato stated during his fight with Jiraiya that all 3 have their own unique skill/power.
> ...



Pretty much this. Sage Mode is dope and all but I don't consider it to push Jirayia to some pedestal above the rest of the Sannin as they all have unique abilities that skyrocket their overall skill set. I truly believe both Tsuande and Oro would have fared just as well as Jirayia did taking on the paths of pain.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Pretty much this. Sage Mode is dope and all but I don't consider it to push Jirayia to some pedestal above the rest of the Sannin as they all have unique abilities that skyrocket their overall skill set. I truly believe both Tsuande and Oro would have fared just as well as Jirayia did taking on the paths of pain.



Except... Jiraiya's battle power outstripes Tsunade's. Oro's outstripes Jiraiya.

SM is never a valid argument to use to put Jiraiya above Oro as Kabuto and Oro established that the latter can use Senjutsu chakra as well.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 9, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Which in-itself outlines that manga first, databook second.



Not in the manner that you think it does.



> It is just supplementary information. If there's a contradiction with it and the actual story, the story wins.





The point is that before assuming they're contradictory you look for a consistent reading of both, which you are not even attempting to do.



> Then he outright said that Oro couldn't become a perfect Sage, not that Oro couldn't become a Sage then Orochimaru outright says the Curse Seals possess his Senjutsu chakra....



If Orochimaru couldn't become a Sage, then he couldn't become a perfect Sage. Tsunade didn't become a perfect Sage, so is she a Sage now? _Not being a perfect Sage doesn't make one a Sage._



> Madara did achieve Sage Mode, though.



He was not a Sage when he absorbed Hashirama's Senjutsu Chakra, though. Actually entering Sage Mode requires that the user be able to control that Chakra, so yeah...



> Not using it in a controlled manner results in what happens to Juugo when he goes HAM and all those CS2 fodder in Oro's hideout. Oro was able to use it in a controlled manner, insofar he could use it to power up people.



That's only when you absorb too much of the energy. It doesn't mean that being unable to control it on any level would result in that, otherwise there would be absolutely no margin for error in training. If there were no such margin for error that would mean training was never necessary for those that attained the mode.

If Orochimaru could use that Chakra for anything else he would have used it in either of those encounters with Itachi considering the amount of respect he had for Itachi's ability as a shinobi.


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## Zero890 (Nov 9, 2017)

As for Senjutsu's domain, Jiraiya >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Orochimaru, Oro can not even use Senjutsu in any way in a combat, just It serves him for the Seals he puts on people (and I understand that he can put them with the help of Juugo's DNA). Oro could not even enter SM, his Senjutsu domain is too bad.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 9, 2017)

A said:


> I seem to recall Itachi fodderizing Orochimaru and Itachi running away from Jiraya.



Cutting off an arm isn't fodderizing. Nobody is claiming that v3 kyubi Naruto fodderized ororchimari.


Ablaze said:


> A pattern i have noticed is that when people argue who is the strongest sannin, those in favour of jiraiya like to mention sage mode. Its true that sage mode is a power up that jiraiya has and the other two do not. However this power up that jiraiya has doesn't mean that the other 2 need the same power up to equal jiraiya's. Perhaps those arguing sm is because all 3 had links via their summoning contract to potentially gain this power and only jiraiya did. We already know that Orochimaru couldn't, but we do not have a reason for Tsunade.
> 
> Anyway these 2 do not need sm to equal jiraiya.
> As nagato stated during his fight with Jiraiya that all 3 have their own unique skill/power.
> ...



So, Sasuke retrieval arc orochimaru  ( no arms) is = SM Jiraiya = Byakugo Tsuande. 

By this logic, Hashirama DNA, arms returned Orochimaru is > the other Sannin. 

Orochimaru created Mistuki- a natural perfect sage- I see no reason why he himself wouldn't have it. 

According to Naruto, Orochimaru looks younger then they last interacted- implying Orochimaru has body hopped atleast once since The fourth war. 

Considering the body he was inhabiting was an immortal plant body- the new body he got is probably superior.


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Cutting off an arm isn't fodderizing.


so what was it then? itachi won high difficulty then in your eyes?


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 9, 2017)

A said:


> so what was it then? itachi won high difficulty then in your eyes?



Itachi won ( no diff) a 5 second exchange in which orochimaru didn't use a single justu or transformation

It's not really a relevant victory.

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Itachi won ( no diff) a 5 second exchange in which orochimaru didn't use a single justu or transformation
> 
> It's not really a relevant victory.




orochimaru couldn't use a jutsu because that's how outclassed he was, hence him being fodder

its not the complicated


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

actually thats a lie, ororchimaru attempted to use that body stealing jutsu


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

so orochimaru used a jutsu, failed, got paralyzed via genjutsu and lost an arm

sounds like fodderizing to me


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 9, 2017)

A said:


> orochimaru couldn't use a jutsu because that's how outclassed he was, hence him being fodder
> 
> its not the complicated



Where is that stated?


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Where is that stated?


he used a jutsu, see my above post

that cancels your previous point


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## Gianfi (Nov 9, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Itachi won ( no diff) a 5 second exchange in which orochimaru didn't use a single justu or transformation
> 
> It's not really a relevant victory.


Itachi also recognized Yamata despite being blind, so it’s possible Oro used it during their fight (or so I read here, I remember someone writing it in other threads)


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## Veracity (Nov 9, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except... Jiraiya's battle power outstripes Tsunade's. Oro's outstripes Jiraiya.
> 
> SM is never a valid argument to use to put Jiraiya above Oro as Kabuto and Oro established that the latter can use Senjutsu chakra as well.


I don't actually agree with that. I don't rate Jirayia as superior to Tsuande and I most certainly don't think Oro is the strongest. They would all give each other a run for their money in a 1 v 1, with Tsuande beating Oro, Jirayia beating Tsunade and Oro beating Jirayia.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 9, 2017)

A said:


> so orochimaru used a jutsu, failed, got paralyzed via genjutsu and lost an arm
> 
> sounds like fodderizing to me




That's not how the fight happened.

When we see the flashback, orochimaru was already caught in genjustu- we have no idea about the events that happened leading up to orochimaru  being paralyzed.

Itachi cuts off Orochimaru's arm ( which we know orochimaru can regenerate easy peasy).

And Itachi says that all Justu are useless before  the sharingan.

And that's it. There is no more to the flashback.

Whatever transpired between Itachi and orochimaru is unknown- other than that both parties left the fight without permanent  injury ( unless you subscribe to the fan theory  that it was orochimaru that gave itachi  AIDS).


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## A Optimistic (Nov 9, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> That's not how the fight happened.
> 
> When we see the flashback, orochimaru was already caught in genjustu- we have no idea about the events that happened leading up to orochimaru  being paralyzed.
> 
> ...


Uh we know Orochimaru tried using that body stealing jutsu and failed


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## Crow (Nov 9, 2017)

The only thing that puts Oro above the other sannin is Edo Tensei without that he is above Tsunade but below Jiraiya.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 9, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Not in the manner that you think it does.



It is exactly in the manner I'm thinking: manga first, databook second. 



> The point is that before assuming they're contradictory you look for a consistent reading of both, which you are not even attempting to do.



I am. You're refusing to do so as it removes that "but Jiraiya has Senjutsu while Oro does not ergo Jiraiya stands a chance" notion.




> If Orochimaru couldn't become a Sage, then he couldn't become a perfect Sage. Tsunade didn't become a perfect Sage, so is she a Sage now? _Not being a perfect Sage doesn't make one a Sage._



You're only half correct. Oro couldn't become a perfect Sage, what was in canon. He was an imperfect Sage however... he used Senjutsu chakra in his seals. 



> He was not a Sage when he absorbed Hashirama's Senjutsu Chakra, though. Actually entering Sage Mode requires that the user be able to control that Chakra, so yeah...



His remarked on how easy it is to control. That makes him a sage, hence the whole SM Madara going around at the time.  



> That's only when you absorb too much of the energy. It doesn't mean that being unable to control it on any level would result in that, otherwise there would be absolutely no margin for error in training. If there were no such margin for error that would mean training was never necessary for those that attained the mode.



Using Senjutsu chakra in a controlled manner = Senjutsu. Imperfect sages exist, they are Oro and Jiraiya who couldn't control it, the latter who couldn't use it without 2 toads- you can even lump in Minato who couldn't use it well. Then you have the perfect ones, so Kabuto, Madara, Hashirama and Naruto.



> If Orochimaru could use that Chakra for anything else he would have used it in either of those encounters with Itachi considering the amount of respect he had for Itachi's ability as a shinobi.



The Itachi scenario, you can take in a few ways:
- He underestimated Itachi and paid for it
- He hadn't achived it yet, which plausible as this is an Oro who made a big deal about losing a hand]

He was shocked Itachi could get _him _in a Genjutsu and decided he'd just break it and Itachi wouldn't do a thing. Just like how he underestimated Naruto till he saw Rasengan. 

Either way, you're making things up now assuming he can only use chakra for seals. As we learnt from the SM arc, if you can't control it you cannot use it in your jutsu. If Oro can use it in his seals, he can use it in any way he likes.



Veracity said:


> I don't actually agree with that. I don't rate Jirayia as superior to Tsuande and I most certainly don't think Oro is the strongest. They would all give each other a run for their money in a 1 v 1, with Tsuande beating Oro, Jirayia beating Tsunade and Oro beating Jirayia.



Except the manga says different. Jiraiya and Tsunade were doing well against an Orochimaru who could not use his arms or jutsu. As per Suigetsu, an Oro with his arms is on a totally different level to one who cannot use his arms.


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## Veracity (Nov 9, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except the manga says different. Jiraiya and Tsunade were doing well against an Orochimaru who could not use his arms or jutsu. As per Suigetsu, an Oro with his arms is on a totally different level to one who cannot use his arms.



When? In the manga Tsuande was Rusty and phobia riddled while Jirayia was drugged enough where he couldn't even properly use certain techniques. Even then Oro needed Kabuto to summon Manda, and after Tsuande broke her phobia she toasted _manda and Oro on her lonesome._ So the manga actually doesn't say differently. Handicapped Oro beat handicapped Jirayia and handicapped Tsuande turned around and beat handicapped Oro.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> When? In the manga Tsuande was Rusty and phobia riddled while Jirayia was drugged enough where he couldn't even properly use certain techniques. Even then Oro needed Kabuto to summon Manda, and after Tsuande broke her phobia she toasted _manda and Oro on her lonesome._ So the manga actually doesn't say differently. Handicapped Oro beat handicapped Jirayia and handicapped Tsuande turned around and beat handicapped Oro.



Orochimaru literally has no arms and no jutsu... why does everyone who says Jiraiya>Oro or try to equalise the Sannin miss how literally not having his arms and jutsu is a *huge *disadvantage. Jiraiya couldn't use chakra properly *for a limited time *but Orochimaru *could not use chakra at all*. Tsunade was rusty *then picked up the slack *... Orochimaru *still could not use his arms or any Ninjutsu*.

The manga is very clear, Oro was *the most *handicapped and he was still doing decent. As per canon, Oro with arms is on a totally different level compared to an Oro without arms. And the Senjutsu element with Jiraiya stopped being valid against Oro when we learnt from Kabuto and Oro himself that the latter can use Senjutsu chakra.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 11, 2017)

If we took the strongest versions of each of them, I'd say it filters out Orochimaru >> massive gap >> SM Jiraiya >> gap >> Tsunade


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## Veracity (Nov 11, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Orochimaru literally has no arms and no jutsu... why does everyone who says Jiraiya>Oro or try to equalise the Sannin miss how literally not having his arms and jutsu is a *huge *disadvantage. Jiraiya couldn't use chakra properly *for a limited time *but Orochimaru *could not use chakra at all*. Tsunade was rusty *then picked up the slack *... Orochimaru *still could not use his arms or any Ninjutsu*.
> 
> The manga is very clear, Oro was *the most *handicapped and he was still doing decent. As per canon, Oro with arms is on a totally different level compared to an Oro without arms. And the Senjutsu element with Jiraiya stopped being valid against Oro when we learnt from Kabuto and Oro himself that the latter can use Senjutsu chakra.



Honestly no. Tsunade gives Oro a run for his money by being phobia riddled *and* rusty. Rusty enough where she was having trouble with Kabuto( lol compare that to in-shape Tsuande who can kick under Madara's guard and tag Sussano clones) and arguably lacked enough chakra and battle readiness to use CES fully; consider her complaining about the chakra drain from basic shosen(lol) and the fact that once her muscle were severed her punches did nothing to Kabuto. Her phobia  also didn't allow her to use Katsuyu, the Yin seal, SS, and she hadn't learned Byakago yet. She was literally out of shape throwing mere punches and kicks. And even then, once she actually confronted Oro, the man stood no chance. He may have been more handicapped but he was utterly defeated with *zero* chance of winning against even Tsuande at that point. 

And you're also just conveniently ignoring aspects of the battle for like no reason. Like Oro having an Elite Jounin at Kakashi's overall level with him holding off Tsunade so she couldn't get to Oro and allowing the man to summon Manda in the first place. Take Kabuto out of the equation and Oro would have lost against Tsunade herself without SS, Katsuyu, or the Yin seal at all, hence why he started running for his life the moment Tsuande came after him.  He was severely outclassed and I shouldn't have to tell you that Jirayia would have made it a whole lot worse. Oro wouldn't have lasted a single panel against Tsuande and Jirayia in that situation.

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## TrollbitoUchiha (Nov 12, 2017)

Nope, Kisame–the fourth Sannin is the strongest Sannin.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> different level compared to an Oro without arms. And the Senjutsu element with Jiraiya stopped being valid against Oro when we learnt from Kabuto and Oro himself that the latter can use Senjutsu chakra.


I agree with you but the only claim that Orochi has over Jiraiya is the ET.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 12, 2017)

yes and no but edo does take prep so on normal circumstances no, but if all 3 are getting ready for a battle then yes ...
Oro (war arc edo)
Jiraiya (SM)
Tsunade
Jiraiya (Base)/ Oro (part 1 edo)

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 12, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Tsunade
> Jiraiya (Base)/ Oro (part 1 edo)


I don't think Tsunade can handle Part 1 Edos w/Orochimaru.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 12, 2017)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't think Tsunade can handle Part 1 Edos w/Orochimaru.



She should be able to if she summons Katsuyu (could do w/o her imo) and activities Byakago, if Old Hiruzen could put up a fight then im sure Tsunade could and finish the job


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## Ryuzaki (Nov 12, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> She should be able to if she summons Katsuyu (could do w/o her imo) and activities Byakago, if Old Hiruzen could put up a fight then im sure Tsunade could and finish the job


Not saying she won't be able to put up a fight, she will but it'll be a battle of attrition and she'll end up losing/not sealing the kages.
People underrate how effective ET is, last I checked, you need to have some form of sealing jutsu in order to win there.
Only reason why Hiruzen won was b/c of SF.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Nov 12, 2017)

@Ryuzaki 
shes a high- mid kage, legendary sannin, Hokage, and a student of Hiruzen... and she haves basically full knowledge on Oro... so adding all this up im pretty damn sure she can find a way to put down edo... if Kishi wrote this battle he wouldint just be like well shit Tsunade dosent have sealing, that means she looses... no, Tsunade should definitely find a way to at least restrain them/put down temporarily especially adding that fact that she can summon Katsuyu for back up


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Honestly no. Tsunade gives Oro a run for his money by being phobia riddled *and* rusty. Rusty enough where she was having trouble with Kabuto( lol compare that to in-shape Tsuande who can kick under Madara's guard and tag Sussano clones) and arguably lacked enough chakra and battle readiness to use CES fully; consider her complaining about the chakra drain from basic shosen(lol) and the fact that once her muscle were severed her punches did nothing to Kabuto. Her phobia  also didn't allow her to use Katsuyu, the Yin seal, SS, and she hadn't learned Byakago yet. She was literally out of shape throwing mere punches and kicks. And even then, once she actually confronted Oro, the man stood no chance. He may have been more handicapped but he was utterly defeated with *zero* chance of winning against even Tsuande at that point.



I don't think you fully grasp what a disadvantage lacking 2 whole limbs and the use of Ninjutsu is relative to Jiraiya and Tsunade's disadvantages.... I get the "they must be equal" narrative people like to harp on, but it gets silly when we assume Jiraiya having limited access to jutsu (for a short amount of time) and Tsunade having a phobia and being rusty (which didn't last too long) is comparable to Oro _for the entire battle _being unable to use his arms and Ninjutsu.

That's like saying Minato with no arms and no back up is equal to Juubito who is battling his feelings. 



> And you're also just conveniently ignoring aspects of the battle for like no reason. Like Oro having an Elite Jounin at Kakashi's overall level with him holding off Tsunade so she couldn't get to Oro and allowing the man to summon Manda in the first place. Take Kabuto out of the equation and Oro would have lost against Tsunade herself without SS, Katsuyu, or the Yin seal at all, hence why he started running for his life the moment Tsuande came after him.  He was severely outclassed and I shouldn't have to tell you that Jirayia would have made it a whole lot worse. Oro wouldn't have lasted a single panel against Tsuande and Jirayia in that situation.



Without Kabuto, you're right Orochimaru would have lost.... *Because he could not use his arms and Ninjutsu*. If needing Kabuto to perform basic jutsu and hold of someone doesn't tell you Oro had the worst handicap, I don't know what will. 



Ryuzaki said:


> I agree with you but the only claim that Orochi has over Jiraiya is the ET.



With Oro, however, we've got the portrayal too. ET is like the super factor, but it was established that Orochimaru was superior. A common argument for Jiraiya is his Senjutsu, which IMO became moot when we learnt Oro could use it too.

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## Veracity (Nov 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't think you fully grasp what a disadvantage lacking 2 whole limbs and the use of Ninjutsu is relative to Jiraiya and Tsunade's disadvantages.... I get the "they must be equal" narrative people like to harp on, but it gets silly when we assume Jiraiya having limited access to jutsu (for a short amount of time) and Tsunade having a phobia and being rusty (which didn't last too long) is comparable to Oro _for the entire battle _being unable to use his arms and Ninjutsu.
> 
> That's like saying Minato with no arms and no back up is equal to Juubito who is battling his feelings.
> 
> ...


I know what a disadvantage not being able to use justu is( although Oro can use various techniques straight from his mouth and was able to summon his greatest summon through Kabuto) but the problem is that you completely just flipped the script on your own argument. Your justification for Oro being superior to Tsunade and Jirayia was because you claimed he did _*well*_ against both without his arms. That shit is straight rubbish because you outright underrated the disadvantages both Tsuande and Jirayia had while also ignoring the fact that Oro didn't well at all. He got fucking creamed and the only reason he survived a a single second was because of various plot devices, Kabuto being the most obvious one.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I know what a disadvantage not being able to use justu is( although Oro can use various techniques straight from his mouth and was able to summon his greatest summon through Kabuto) but the problem is that you completely just flipped the script on your own argument. Your justification for Oro being superior to Tsunade and Jirayia was because you claimed he did _*well*_ against both without his arms. That shit is straight rubbish because you outright underrated the disadvantages both Tsuande and Jirayia had while also ignoring the fact that Oro didn't well at all. He got fucking creamed and the only reason he survived a a single second was because of various plot devices, Kabuto being the most obvious one.



Oro can use various jutsu but going by Suigetsu's remark it is safe to assume Orochimaru's most potent jutsu were inaccessible to him. That itself puts him leagues above his fellow Sannin. 

Well, let's recap:

No arms and jutsu, Oro owned Jiraiya easily. In the summon battle he was about to take out Jiraiya. Tsunade did take him, but going by what we've seen with a non crippled Oro, chances are he'd probably have taken Tsunade too. Manda did a good job at avoiding Katsuyu while almost taking Bunta as well. 

Tsunade and Jiraiya had handicaps which faded away during battle, they were not as bad because of that. That's why Oro got "creamed", because unlike his fellow Sannin, his handicaps were not only far worse, but they didn't fade away as the battle went on.

Face it, Oro's handicap was by far the most hindering one. Pretty much, to keep this "Sannin are equal" narrative going on, you're severely underplaying Oro's handicap. If you didn't, you'd realise Oro's handicap not only lasted the entire battle (unlike the other 2), but his constrained him the most.

Let's assume none of them had handicaps. 
- The Hari Jizo counter, Oro could've used a curse seal or even a poisonous white snake to end Jiraiya there and then.
- The encounter with Tsunade, Oro could have ended that with the same tactic he used on Log
- Vs Tsunade after the summoning battle, after he easily escaped her, he'd have a range of jutsu he could have used against both Sannin

So basically without handicaps, Oro could pretty much have ended them shortly without dragging the battle on. You can't really claim the same for Jiraiya or Tsunade because... their handicaps weren't that bad compared to Oro's.

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## Veracity (Nov 12, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Oro can use various jutsu but going by Suigetsu's remark it is safe to assume Orochimaru's most potent jutsu were inaccessible to him. That itself puts him leagues above his fellow Sannin.
> 
> Well, let's recap:
> 
> ...




No it doesn't put him drastically above the Sannin lol. It just means Oro is stronger when not handicapped which is something we knew from the start.

Yeah let's recap lmao.

You mean Oro with access to his long ass neck and other techniques that didn't require handseals took on Jirayia who was literally only using nerfed needle Jizo techniques and they were outright even until Oro got the one up on him at the very end which doesn't in any way equate to Oro handling Jirayia _easily_ and is actually supported by the Snake> Frog concept. Which was in my intial post that you quoted by the way. Oro also couldn't even use Manda himself and needed Kabuto, thus it isn't a technique that can be attributed to armless Oro.

Tsuande being Rusty and having piss poor endurance never faded during the battle and Jirayia's chakra disturbance became less of a problem towards the end when he  only confronted manda: who again isn't part of Armless Oro's arsenal. So we don't have any idea how that version of Jirayia would fared against armless also considering Oro only confronted drugged Jirayia. And if you want to push so much emphasis on Oro having a larger handicap stop ignoring the fact that Kabuto carried him that entire battle and the fact that Oro got decimated once Tsunade for serious.

The Sannin narrative can holds its merit because Oro had loads of help during that battle and still got his shit split wide open. He stood no chance because he was the most handicapped but that doesn't mean if you take the handicaps away Oro is the strongest? How do you come down to that conclusion? 100% headcanon.

Yeah no, I'm not going to waste my time with the rest. Restrict handcaups and Tsuande/Jirayia cream Kabuto and Oro. Nobody needs to argue otherwise it's obvious asf.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> No it doesn't put him drastically above the Sannin lol. It just means Oro is stronger when not handicapped which is something we knew from the start.



Except Kishi chose to handicap him more to equalise them... Oro was handicapped more and his handicap did not wear off to make the Sannin as equal as they can be. Think about it. 


> Yeah let's recap lmao.
> 
> You mean Oro with access to his long ass neck and other techniques that didn't require handseals took on Jirayia who was literally only using nerfed needle Jizo techniques and they were outright even until Oro got the one up on him at the very end which doesn't in any way equate to Oro handling Jirayia _easily_ and is actually supported by the Snake> Frog concept. Which was in my intial post that you quoted by the way. Oro also couldn't even use Manda himself and needed Kabuto, thus it isn't a technique that can be attributed to armless Oro.



Are you going Itachi fan and assuming everything Jiraiya had was nerfed? Only Jiraiya's swamp was nerfed, as he himself said. He merely said his jutsu wasn't sharp enough to stop Oro who took the pain, moved the hair and bit Jiraiya.

Manda still owned Bunta. Also you pointing out Oro needed someone to summon him only illustrates that his handicap was the worst by far... which hurts the point you want to make.



> Tsuande being Rusty and having piss poor endurance never faded during the battle and Jirayia's chakra disturbance became less of a problem towards the end when he  only confronted manda: who again isn't part of Armless Oro's arsenal. So we don't have any idea how that version of Jirayia would fared against armless also considering Oro only confronted drugged Jirayia. And if you want to push so much emphasis on Oro having a larger handicap stop ignoring the fact that Kabuto carried him that entire battle and the fact that Oro got decimated once Tsunade for serious.



Rusty... so her suddenly knowing how to fight again was just her being rusty? 
Jiraiya's chakra was only an issue when he ended up summoning Gamakichi and couldn't sink a snake, as per canon. His jutsu not being sharp enough to stop Oro just means that, it wasn't sharp enough to stop Oro.

Are you implying the fact Kabuto helped Oro summon suggests the handicap Oro had wasn't the worst? 



> The Sannin narrative can holds its merit because Oro had loads of help during that battle and still got his shit split wide open. He stood no chance because he was the most handicapped but that doesn't mean if you take the handicaps away Oro is the strongest? How do you come down to that conclusion? 100% headcanon.



Assuming the snake>toad>slug>snake narrative holds with the Sannin is head canon. Also, how are you not realising that Oro needing the most help (summons) in the battle when he had no jutsu and arms automatically shows his handicap was the worst. 
If you ignored the narrative you're trying to force, you'd notice Oro consistently showed superior battle capabilities. Oro's thing was Ninjutsu and he lacked that, that alone should say a lot.



> Yeah no, I'm not going to waste my time with the rest. Restrict handcaups and Tsuande/Jirayia cream Kabuto and Oro. Nobody needs to argue otherwise it's obvious asf.



You're not going to post because even you're aware that the snake>toad>slug>snake which you want to use to equalise the Sannin holds no merit. I mean, you suggest Oro's handicap was so bad that Kabuto had to help from time to time, not realising that automatically makes Oro was the most restricted while his fellow Sannin were barely restricted in comparison.

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## Veracity (Nov 13, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Oro is stronger than the Sannin when not handicapped... why are you contesting that very fact then?
> 
> 
> Are you going Itachi fan and assuming everything Jiraiya had was nerfed? Only Jiraiya's swamp was nerfed, as he himself said. He merely said his jutsu wasn't sharp enough to stop Oro who took the pain, moved the hair and bit Jiraiya.
> ...



How did you come to that conclusion? Oro being stronger with arm in comparison to without them =/= Oro being the strongest Sannin because they all are far stronger than what they displayed at the first deadlock.

Huh? He was drugged and barely even able to walk when he walk up that day. His chakra network was fucked hence him being unable to summon bunta and relying on lower tier tedhiqnues like needle Jizo against a whole ass Sannin lol.

You completely lost track of your own argument lol. You claimed armless Oro did well against both Sannin hence he's better than both when at full power. I already proved how fallacious this reasoning is because Oro in fact did not do well against both Sannin. Whether or not Manda would have taken out Bunta is legit irrelevant because armless Oro lacks the ability to use Manda to begin with. 

Have you read the fight? Tsuande breaking her phobia and using higher tier techniques doesn't mean she wasn't rusty. You might have forgotten how many years she was out of battle, how pitiful her feats were in comparison to in shape Tsuande, and the fact that she was growing old by the end of the battle and was worried about the chakra expenditure from Shosen lol. She was Rusty, both Oro and Jirayia stated this.

Guess you missed the part where Jirayia could barely stand the morning of, when he attributed his lackluster swamp directly to being drugged, and when he couldn't summon bunta because of the drug. If you don't think Jirayia was effected you're being bias.

Quote me on exactly where I said Oro wasn't the most handicapped? I don't know why this is the crux of your argument when I've outright stated that he was. The erroneous aspect of your argument, however, is the fact that you keep excluding what happened directly on panel; Oro being carried the entire battle by Kabuto and then casually being dragged by Tsunade at the conclusion. He stood no chance there. You also underrate the severity of Tsunade and Oro's handicaps.


Oro displaying superior battle capabilities is your own opinion. Outside of Part 2 Edo, he has not shown anything above Jirayia or Tsunade.

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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2017)

Veracity said:


> How did you come to that conclusion? Oro being stronger with arm in comparison to without them =/= Oro being the strongest Sannin because they all are far stronger than what they displayed at the first deadlock.
> 
> Huh? He was drugged and barely even able to walk when he walk up that day. His chakra network was fucked hence him being unable to summon bunta and relying on lower tier tedhiqnues like needle Jizo against a whole ass Sannin lol.



2 jutsu were affected and he was fine... Tsunade got over her phobia and fought well when she wanted to protect Naruto... Oro still had no arms and no jutsu. How is this difficult to comprehend?



> You completely lost track of your own argument lol. You claimed armless Oro did well against both Sannin hence he's better than both when at full power. I already proved how fallacious this reasoning is because Oro in fact did not do well against both Sannin. Whether or not Manda would have taken out Bunta is legit irrelevant because armless Oro lacks the ability to use Manda to begin with.



All you proved is Oro was more handicapped while tricking yourself into thinking that Oro's handicap is the same as the other Sannin's. 

Oro owned Jiraiya, and he did a good job escaping when Tsunade tried to hit him again. Bunta was still going to be owned. Also, if you consider Manda a game changer... and attribute him to an Oro with arms... yet you think Oro's handicap is equal to Jiraiya and Tsunade's?! 



> Have you read the fight? Tsuande breaking her phobia and using higher tier techniques doesn't mean she wasn't rusty. You might have forgotten how many years she was out of battle, how pitiful her feats were in comparison to in shape Tsuande, and the fact that she was growing old by the end of the battle and was worried about the chakra expenditure from Shosen lol. She was Rusty, both Oro and Jirayia stated this.



Like Naruto was rusty, but he got his battle sense back when it counted. Like she did. Oro, however, *still couldn't use his arms and jutsu*.



> Guess you missed the part where Jirayia could barely stand the morning of, when he attributed his lackluster swamp directly to being drugged, and when he couldn't summon bunta because of the drug. If you don't think Jirayia was effected you're being bias.



Bias from the guy who tries to attribute the drug's effect beyond what the manga actually said was affected (the summoning and swamp). The needles weren't held back, they just weren't good enough to stop Oro.



> Quote me on exactly where I said Oro wasn't the most handicapped? I don't know why this is the crux of your argument when I've outright stated that he was. The erroneous aspect of your argument, however, is the fact that you keep excluding what happened directly on panel; Oro being carried the entire battle by Kabuto and then casually being dragged by Tsunade at the conclusion. He stood no chance there. You also underrate the severity of Tsunade and Oro's handicaps.



The guy who is telling you that you don't quite get how bad Oro's handicap is... is suddenly the guy who is underrating Oro's handicap? 

You agree Oro was the most handicapped... yet think the Sannin are all equal. What? 



> Oro displaying superior battle capabilities is your own opinion. Outside of Part 2 Edo, he has not shown anything above Jirayia or Tsunade.



Except the face he could survive against KN4 without the use of his jutsu which he got back in the war arc. 
Or the fact we learnt he's quite good with landing curse marks and poisonous snakes on his foes. 
Or the fact we learnt his Ninjutsu was his greatest weapon, but he could not use it because of Hiruzen - Suigetsu outright said there's a huge difference.

Oro pretty much has it in the bag. The old Sannin weren't equal (Oro is the strongest). Not even the new Sannin are equal.


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## Ogihci Shirosaki (Nov 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't mean physical strength, I mean overall power/combat capability.


Without ET Hokage or hypothetical Boruto scaling? No, though at otherwise full strength I believe Orochimaru would give SM Jiraiya a bit of trouble before dying. As far as how I see them in total ability.

Orochimaru (w/ War Arc ET)
--
SM Jiraiya
--
Orochimaru (w/ PTI ET)
Orochimaru
Base Jiriaya
War Arc Tsunade

I was going to mention their handicapped states, but it was hard for me to judge. Without Kabuto there, Orochimaru wouldn't have been able to summon. It's not like he could use his tongue in place of his hand, right?


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## Veracity (Nov 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 2 jutsu were affected and he was fine... Tsunade got over her phobia and fought well when she wanted to protect Naruto... Oro still had no arms and no jutsu. How is this difficult to comprehend?
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Bruh what. Two justu were effected? Are you serious? Ask yourself why in the hell that even makes sense? Jirayia outright stated that two of his techniques were weakened why would he need to outright tell you all of them were? Just use common sense and infer that the drugs weakened Jirayia overall instead of specific techniques. I mean the man outright stated his ability to release chakra was poor and he was so weak that he could barely even hold chopsticks. And you claiming some outrageous stuff like he wasn't weakened during that battle? Lol keep lying on here.

Why do you keep lying? *Quote exactly where i said Oro's handicap was equal to the rest of the Sannin's.* I'll wait for that. Cause you keep bringing that outlandish statement up as if it's even apart of my point.

Oro did not "own" Jirayia lol and he did nothing to escape from Tsuande. He got decked in the jaw, used Kabuto to summon Manda to gain distance, blindside attacked Tsuande and then got decked again. He got trashed stop gassing up his performance.

Manda for sure was no game changer for Tsuande let's cut that out right now. He got one panled by Rusty Tsuande, so he is hardly a threat to Byakago Tsunade. He performed well against drugged Jirayia but that doesn't change my stance because I think Oro beats Jirayia.

No. Tsuande was more than a decade out of any type of battle, phobia riddled( which didn't allow her to use 75% of her arsenal), had a pitiful chakra showing, and was worn out. There ya go again under rating her condition.

" not only can I not call up my chakra properly, but my bodies so numb I can't even hold up chopsticks." Word for word from the manga the description of Jirayia being drugged . Why you think his drug was only effecting two justu is literally beyond me.

Why do I have to spoon fed this to you? Like I don't understand how it isn't just obvious asf. Just because Oro was more handicapped than Jirayia and Tsunade doesn't mean he's stronger at 100% *because he got trashed on panel. *Legit no basis for Oro being superior other than arbitrary head canon. Homie was more handicapped but he got trashed. Do you not see a correlation there? Maybe if Oro was less handicapped he would stood any chance against Tsuande, other than getting planted on the ground at every turn and literally running away from her at match start.

None of which means he's superior to Tsuande and Jirayia. If you think Oro is superior than Tsuande and Jirayia that's cool and all but you aren't gonna post fallacious reasoning like handicapped Oro being any threat to Rusty Tsunade let alone Tsunade + Jirayia.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Bruh what. Two justu were effected? Are you serious? Ask yourself why in the hell that even makes sense? Jirayia outright stated that two of his techniques were weakened why would he need to outright tell you all of them were? Just use common sense and infer that the drugs weakened Jirayia overall instead of specific techniques. I mean the man outright stated his ability to release chakra was poor and he was so weak that he could barely even hold chopsticks. And you claiming some outrageous stuff like he wasn't weakened during that battle? Lol keep lying on here.
> 
> Why do you keep lying? *Quote exactly where i said Oro's handicap was equal to the rest of the Sannin's.* I'll wait for that. Cause you keep bringing that outlandish statement up as if it's even apart of my point.
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Tsunade had a handicap which stopped hindering her. Jiraiya had a handicap which stopped hindering him.
Oro had the worst handicap which did not go away till Part 2 of the manga.

That itself is clear that the Sannin do not counter balance each other. There was a strongest (Oro) and there was a weakest (Tsunade). You may not like that, but that's literally how the manga sees it.


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## Trinity B (Nov 14, 2017)

I believe Oro is strongest however I’ve heard arguments where base Oro is stronger than base Jiraiya but max Jiraiya is stronger than maxg because Jiraiya has Ma and Pa. I believe Oro is stronger all around. Too much in his arsenal lol


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## Trinity B (Nov 14, 2017)

Max Jiraiya is stronger than max Oro*


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 14, 2017)

Trinity Blood said:


> Max Jiraiya is stronger than max Oro*



*Max Oro without Edo Tensei, Or Boruto theoretical scaling.


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## Veracity (Nov 14, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tsunade had a handicap which stopped hindering her. Jiraiya had a handicap which stopped hindering him.
> Oro had the worst handicap which did not go away till Part 2 of the manga.
> 
> That itself is clear that the Sannin do not counter balance each other. There was a strongest (Oro) and there was a weakest (Tsunade). You may not like that, but that's literally how the manga sees it.



I will say it again, Oro's handicap was worse than Jirayia and Tsuande's. With that said, that doesn't mean if you take all handicaps away from eveyone that Oro would automatically the strongest. That would only hold water if Oro himself stood any chance in that battle. He caught Jirayia off guard once because the latters  attention was divided by Oro threatening Naruto and he stood absolutely zero change of defeating Tsunade without Kabuto carrying his ass the entire time. I mean if Oro stood any chance he wouldn't have ran from Tsunade at match start let alone told Kabuto he was going to fight Tsuande instead of himself.


No honestly that's how you see it. I consider them equal Part 2 Edo aside.


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## Bookworm (Nov 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I will say it again, Oro's handicap was worse than Jirayia and Tsuande's. With that said, that doesn't mean if you take all handicaps away from eveyone that Oro would automatically the strongest. That would only hold water if Oro himself stood any chance in that battle. He caught Jirayia off guard once because the latters  attention was divided by Oro threatening Naruto and he stood absolutely zero change of defeating Tsunade without Kabuto carrying his ass the entire time. I mean if Oro stood any chance he wouldn't have ran from Tsunade at match start let alone told Kabuto he was going to fight Tsuande instead of himself.
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> No honestly that's how you see it. I consider them equal Part 2 Edo aside.



The fact that Oro wanted Tsunade to heal his arms, may factor into why he ran away.


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## Veracity (Nov 14, 2017)

Trolling said:


> The fact that Oro wanted Tsunade to heal his arms, may factor into why he ran away.


Why? And does the fact that he told Kabuto he was going to fight Tsuande instead of himself as well as him getting his ass beat when he _actually_ had to fight Tsunade also have to do with Oro fleeing?


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## Bookworm (Nov 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Why? And does the fact that he told Kabuto he was going to fight Tsuande instead of himself as well as him getting his ass beat when he _actually_ had to fight Tsunade also have to do with Oro fleeing?



Tsunade likely wouldn't heal his arms than. Well Oro did have by far the worst handicap, so he would have a better chance with Kabuto


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## Veracity (Nov 15, 2017)

Trolling said:


> Tsunade likely wouldn't heal his arms than. Well Oro did have by far the worst handicap, so he would have a better chance with Kabuto


The moment Tsuande aimed to kick Oro in his jaw is the moment Oro recognized that he would have to battle Tsunade to get his way. He ran because he knew he wouldn't stand a chance( actually Kabuto in this sense) without wearing Tsuande down further.

Even then, nobody is saying Oro wasn't the most handicapped.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The moment Tsuande aimed to kick Oro in his jaw is the moment Oro recognized that he would have to battle Tsunade to get his way. He ran because he knew he wouldn't stand a chance( actually Kabuto in this sense) without wearing Tsuande down further.
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> Even then, nobody is saying Oro wasn't the most handicapped.



How are you still thinking they balance each other out when Oro who had the worst handicap which didn't wear off till part 2 ende dup facing 2 Sannin without handicaps in the end? 

1. The fact Oro was the most handicapped i.e. had to be the most restricted indicates he was considerably above his fellow Sannin.
2. The fact he was the only one whose handicap lasted the entire battle goes to the same concept. 
3. Oro would've likely fought and beat Tsunade, if Jiraiya wasn't there. He said it himself, fighting 2 Sannin (especially in his hindered state) wouldn't be easy.


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## Veracity (Nov 16, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How are you still thinking they balance each other out when Oro who had the worst handicap which didn't wear off till part 2 ende dup facing 2 Sannin without handicaps in the end?
> 
> 1. The fact Oro was the most handicapped i.e. had to be the most restricted indicates he was considerably above his fellow Sannin.
> 2. The fact he was the only one whose handicap lasted the entire battle goes to the same concept.
> 3. Oro would've likely fought and beat Tsunade, if Jiraiya wasn't there. He said it himself, fighting 2 Sannin (especially in his hindered state) wouldn't be easy.



Just because plot demanded that Oro had a more severe handicap doesn't mean that he was the strongest. That's pure fabrication and I've explained atleast 3 times why him being the weakest at that point in the manga doesn't mean much.

1. Naw not really. He got his ass kicked low difficulty by Tsunade.
2. No it's just circumstantial. Nobody expects Kishi to illustrate a manga where they all have perfectly equal handicaps that last the same amount of time. It's not even interesting and goes against what actually happened in the manga
3. You didn't read the fight then, and if you did you would know that Oro stood zero chance against Tsuande. His only chance being to exploit the phobia which is actually worse of a handicap then having no arms by far. The moment Tsuande got serious( she actually would have killed Oro before the fight even  started) Oro decided he wanted to run and placed the entire battle on Kabuto's shoulders. Oro also needed Kabuto to summon his most powerful asset at the time and Tsuande took down Manda by herself. She then proceeded to get blindside attacked by Oro and took him down with one punch. Oro would not have likely beat Tsuande lol?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 16, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Just because plot demanded that Oro had a more severe handicap doesn't mean that he was the strongest. That's pure fabrication and I've explained atleast 3 times why him being the weakest at that point in the manga doesn't mean much.



Think this through, if Oro wasn't the strongest than *why would he need the most sever handicap?* 



> 1. Naw not really. He got his ass kicked low difficulty by Tsunade.
> 2. No it's just circumstantial. Nobody expects Kishi to illustrate a manga where they all have perfectly equal handicaps that last the same amount of time. It's not even interesting and goes against what actually happened in the manga
> 3. You didn't read the fight then, and if you did you would know that Oro stood zero chance against Tsuande. His only chance being to exploit the phobia which is actually worse of a handicap then having no arms by far. The moment Tsuande got serious( she actually would have killed Oro before the fight even  started) Oro decided he wanted to run and placed the entire battle on Kabuto's shoulders. Oro also needed Kabuto to summon his most powerful asset at the time and Tsuande took down Manda by herself. She then proceeded to get blindside attacked by Oro and took him down with one punch. Oro would not have likely beat Tsuande lol?



1. You diminished the quality of that yourself when you point out yourself how much worse Oro had it. Even then, he was able to get a few slashes on her and her hits did not take him down.
2. Equal handicaps... then you say Oro had it worse... but then Oro's is the only one which didn't end till part 2... I don' think you know where you're going with this either. 
3. Phobias are worse than having no jutsu or arms... have you seen how this manga works? She would've killed Oro, you mean when Oro would've letter when Kabuto stopped the whole thing? 
When Jiraiya, who is stronger than Tsunade, came in Oro easily handled him. Oro had no issues slashing Tsunade himself... had he done it instead of Kabuto in the beginning, that battle would've probably been over real quick. Her taking out Manda herself would mean so much more if Manda went for her and she did it... instead she took a Manda fixed on Jiraiya i.e. the point you wanted to make doesn't work.

Oro would have not likely beat Tsunade... She literally has nothing that could take him out. The only way she can do so is through a means where Oro lets her kill him. And no, I don't believe Tsunade can regenerate limbs.


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## Veracity (Nov 16, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Think this through, if Oro wasn't the strongest than *why would he need the most sever handicap?*
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He didn't _need_ the most severe handicap, he happened to *have* the most severe handicapped as that's what happened in the manga. Kishi didn't even illustrate that battle so it was necessarily fair in the first place. Oro was more severely handicapped and that showed when Tsuande pummeled his ass.

1. It doesn't diminish the equality because A) the fight wasn't meant to be written out with equal handicaps and B) Oro got his ass handed to him. Oro only got off those slashes because Tsuande was protecting Naruto and because she was still shaking his her phobia. 
2. I said they *didn't* have equal handicaps. Keep up. 
3. I think you should pay attention a bit more. The moment Tsuande saw blood she couldn't even move her body. I think being completely unable to move your body trumps having no arms in terms of handicap. After all, even someone like Part 1 Naruto could beat Tsuande if he drew blood and stopped her movements completely. 

" you mean when Oro would've letter when Kabuto stopped the whole thing" literally have no idea what you were tryna say there. 

Jirayia is not stronger than Tsuande, that's literally what my intial post was trying to convey as well as the Frog> Slug or Slug> Snake or Snake> Frog concept. Why you have ignored this and backtracked the conversation with statements like "Jirayia is stronger than tsuande" which you know I don't agree with is beyond me. Oro also didn't easily deal with Jirayia either. He only managed to land a blow when Jirayia's attention was divided, before that it was dead even.

Oh you mean Oro landing slashes, as if Tsuande wasn't trying to defend Naruto, wasn't trembling from her fear of blood, and didn't get up after taking those slashes and nail Oro in the face? Funny what conclusions you come down to when you conveniently ignore aspects of what truly happened. You then also ignored the fact that Tsuande didn't need a distraction to take out Manda because she not only covered a greater distance than what Manda covered but did so while wielding a building sized sword and outpaced his fastest movement( snap of jaw). She wouldn't need those distractions to one panel Manda.

Tsuande's direct blow caused Oro to flee from head Trauma. She would have taken him out with direct blows, or Katsuyu could have melted him with acid that would kill him by his own admission.

Doesn't believe Tsuande can heal limbs when she says she can in the manga?? As if that's even relevant here, just seems like you are tryning to take digs at Tsuande lol.


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