# Where does Base Minato Stand?



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 25, 2015)

I've noticed in several threads a disconnect where Minato standings are in his base form, I see him being compared to the likes of Sasori, and the Sannin, and other mid tier kages, but i question is why?
This is *Minato Namikaze* were talking about In my mind by Hype, portrayel and even be feats hes on a completely different level compared to such mid tiers.

 HYPE


Was stated by Jiraiya to be the PERFECT shinobi a man without equal, this includes people like Prime Hanzo ( who soloed the Sannin) and Prime Hiruzen ( A man that was stated to be the Strongest of the Gokage) and The White Fang
( A man stated to be greater then all 3 Sannin in the DB) and even includes Jiraiya himself (the man who was stated to be Stronger then the leader of Akatsuki Pein/Nagato)

Minato was stated to be the biggest Genius ever produced by Konoha, yes this includes people like Itachi ( who 1 shots a Sannin multiple times) not counting Sasuke and Naruto of course. 

The Yondaime Raikage Ei felt that Minato could never be surpassed by anyone, this includes Kirabi ( A Perfect Jin, capable of Bijudama) and signifies he was stronger then his own father ( An elite of kage, the strongest Raikage to ever exist.)

During the War between Iwagakure and the leaf, Iwa gave a FLEE ON SIGHT issue whenever any soldier sees Minato at all and that even trying to fight him would just be in vain, this is shown when 50 Iwa JOUNIN were casually wiped off the face of the earth in an instant. Onoki was so scared of Minato he felt he couldn't be beaten under any circumstance that even if his entire army of Ninja were there to just drop eveything and flee, that numbers mean nothing in front of Minato. Onoki with all of his experience this is the only time we see Onoki show fear on that level against any individual untill Madara showed up.

*Feats*

Minato Namikaze easily avoided V2 Ei's Shunshin a feat that MS Sasuke couldn't reproduce even with the Sharingan enhanced perception, a feat that took Naruto several power ups to replicate the feat, now this is Minato's Speed and reflexes without Hiraishin.

Pre-Rinnegan Obito one of the strongest in the Akatsuki aided by the KYUBBI the strongest Biju was Humiliated by Minato, Even with the advantage of full Knowledge and Minato having none Obito still got completely outsmarted, the feat of defeating the Kyubbi+ a strong Uchiha are feats shared by very few people, namely HASHIRAMA the strongest Hokage.


  So my question is this: *Where Does Base Minato Rank?*


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## ARGUS (Jun 25, 2015)

Minato is clearly above the likes of sannin 
he is almost on par (slightly superior) to Tobirama, being in the same echelon as Itachi, Obito annd Pein


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## Rocky (Jun 25, 2015)

This is going to spark a shitstorm.

Minato is generally comparable to characters like Tobirama, Itachi, or (MS) Obito. How the Sannin (or Sasori) stack up to those characters depends on individual interpretation, but my opinion is Minato (High-Tier) ≥ Sannin ≥ Sasori (Mid-Tier). 

They aren't _huge_ gaps by any means though.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 25, 2015)

He is definitely above people like deidara, sasori, kakuzu, danzo and anyone like them i hope that is not contested. 

Minato's "peers" on a tier list are people like itachi, killer bee, pain, obito and people like them.


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2015)

Mostly it's because people ignore his hype and feats by putting excuses like what usually is with Obito,( he did not know, experience blah blah blah...etc) or his feats with 8th Gate 5th Step Gai's speed (he slowed down, so Lee is fast? blah blah blah) and many other crap. Or focusing on "oh, he only has Rassengan" he can't hurt this or that...

As such, he is mostly dragged down to characters like B's level whom was trembling hearing his name,and Minato was dealing with him and A at the same time. Or people like Tobirama whom couldn't accomplish nearly as much as Minato, but just based on "he has the same jutsu". Or characters like itachi which is in this case based on overrating itachi over where the manga placed him (the sannin equal). 

That's the general thing I suppose.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

I don't think anybody considers Minato's peers to be Sasori, Orochimaru, or Jiraiya. Orochimaru is a good match-up for Minato's limited offense is all. Jiraiya in Sage Mode approaches his level. 

Almost everybody agrees that people like Itachi, Tobirama, Kabuto, etc. are a cut above the Sannin, although it's debatable by how much, and living Minato is right there next to them in that sense.​


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## thechickensage (Jun 25, 2015)

he's one of the only ones who doesn't require BS powerups (Sage mode/Kamui/Sharingan/Rinnegan/Susanoo/Hashirama cells/Tailed beast/Gates) in order to hang with the strongest shinobi 

instead he has a semi-BS space-time jutsu 

which shinobi* in base form *are superior to him?


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## Bonly (Jun 25, 2015)

Minato is usually ranked at the upper end of High-Kage Level along with the likes of Itachi,Pain,Tobi,ect. I haven't seen people rank him with Mid-Kage level characters, at best someone might say a Mid-Kage level ninja might beat him because of their ability and what not but that's not the same as ranking them together, at least not in my book.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> he's one of the only ones who doesn't require BS powerups



Yeah, he just copied all his jutsu from a smarter Hokage + his wife.


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## Rocky (Jun 25, 2015)

"Copied," as in expanded upon it by incorporating excellent fundamentals?


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2015)

it's more like reteconned to the undeveloped Tobirama to give him a place in the fight. 

either way, it's still better than the MS/sharingan jutsu that everyone has in the clan.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

I was under the impression that the current kages would be in the same peer-group as Minato except for perhaps Gaara.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Yeah, he just copied all his jutsu from a smarter Hokage + his wife.




Better then a shinobi who relied on techniques that were handed to him because of his bloodline with no skill of his contributing to unlocking them, and were previously created by a man infinitely his superior, who actually earned them





*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi


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## Rocky (Jun 25, 2015)

@Ryuzaki

Current as is Naruto & Darui, or you mean A & Onoki's crew? Either way, Minato's looks to be a step ahead of all except for the obvious Naruto. Though we don't know anything about the new Kage.


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## javierb94 (Jun 25, 2015)

He is stronger than Itachi, stronger than pain. The most accurate tier is the one filled by Tobirama  (A lot of people want to deny his strength cuzz of time screen and such, doesn't change the fact orochimaru and Sasuke almost shat themselves), war arc Obito  (Guy, BM Naruto, Full Eight tails, Kakashi vs him) and healed Nagato 

Let's see, Minato:
- Unparalleled speed and reflexes even without hiraishin 
- Master in taijutsu
- Incredibly battle- smart 
- Fuinjutsu expert 
- Does not like to use it but it is canon he has sage mode
- Only individual that could master hiraishin even beyond its creator expectations

Not much else to say


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Ryuzaki
> 
> Current as is Naruto & Darui, or you mean A & Onoki's crew? Either way, Minato's looks to be a step ahead of all except for the obvious Naruto. Though we don't know anything about the new Kage.



I meant, the ones who were there when Tsunade was Hokage (as technically if Minato hadn't died, there wouldn't be a need for Tsunade).


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## Rocky (Jun 25, 2015)

Minato's stronger than A, whom I consider to be "peers" with those other Kage.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I meant, the ones who were there when Tsunade was Hokage (as technically if Minato hadn't died, there wouldn't be a need for Tsunade).



Except the thing is we know he's massively stronger then all of them


*Ei*- Even with B in a 2 v 1 situation they couldn't touch him not even once
Ei even went so far as to say nobody could surpass Minato, which includes himself and the other Gokage.

*Mei Terumi*- Gets blitzed they are just on different levels. Hell Mei is more like Low Kage level not an Elite like Minato.

*Gaara*- Current Gaara might have caught up to him, but War arc Gaara for example would still get blitzed, Gaara's sand is much too slow to hit him

*Onoki*- Once again he's too slow Minato can't be hit by his Jinton and Onoki will eventually get caught in a Rasengan. Onoki even made a Flee on Sight order if any of his men saw Minato because he was so strong Onoki thought it was impossible for any of his men to compete with Minato at all.

The Previous kages aren't even comparable to Minato


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## thechickensage (Jun 25, 2015)

I think Minato's stronger than all the kage in the series except Naruto and maybe Hashirama, but those two would require sage mode or higher to win.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 25, 2015)

He's in the same tier group as people like Killer B, Itachi, MS Obito, SM Kabuto & _Pein RIkudo_


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Except the thing is we know he's massively stronger then all of them
> 
> 
> *Ei*- Even with B in a 2 v 1 situation they couldn't touch him not even once
> ...



Well, yeah, I thought the assertion was who are his peers (strictly age, not strength, power and etc.). I suppose everyone that was a kage at the start of the Naruto would be in Minato's kage-peer group.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Better then a shinobi who relied on techniques that were handed to him because of his bloodline with no skill of his contributing to unlocking them, and were previously created by a man infinitely his superior, who actually earned them



I still feel like you're talking about Minato and Tobirama.


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## Rocky (Jun 25, 2015)

You need talent to use Hiraishin. It isn't genetic like the Sharingan, though it obviously takes talent to master that dojutsu as eight. 

The actual techniques Itachi uses are more generic than Hiraishin. It's how he uses them that makes him unique.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I still feel like you're talking about Minato and Tobirama.



What on earth? Minato had no bloodline everything he accomplished in life was because of his own strength and genius level skill not once this is pretty blatantly contrasted by Itachi's life, where everything he used and had in life was handed to him, yes Itachi was hyped as a Genius but when does it matter when everything you have you didn't earn  none of Itachi's Genius level skill was evident in anything he uses. Minato is the exact opposite when the only thing he has to begin with is that same genius level skill.


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2015)

^

The fanny part is itachi took his jutsu from Shisui. I don't know what he is bitching about. 
and even funnier he (itachi) is a watered down version of him (Shisui). lol


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> What on earth? Minato had no bloodline everything he accomplished in life was because of his own strength and genius



And yet his primary skills were Tobirama's, Kushina's, and Jiraiya's techniques. Do you think Itachi, with all his elite genius hype, is incapable of learning any of those skillsets if given the opportunity?

Most unbiased people would probably say no. So in that sense, Minato being "more" than Itachi in any sense is a luck of the draw on the situations/paths they were destined to walk, nothing more. 

In terms of showing fundamental skill, ninja will, and traditional intellect, Itachi has the edge over Minato. Minato used to have creativity over Itachi, but that's no longer case.​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> ^
> 
> The fanny part is itachi took his jutsu from Shisui. I don't know what he is bitching about.
> and even funnier he (itachi) is a watered down version of him (Shisui). lol



I'll be honest Sasuke get more props from me then Itachi at least in part 1
Always being told how inferior he was compared to Itachi, the Izuna to Itachi's Madara. But even when he got the Sharingan, Sasuke wasn't LOL Genjutsu, he still used everything he was taught and learned from Kakashi and Orochimaru.
In the Sasuke Vs Itachi i was legitimately impressed by Sasuke.
Its a damm shame That all went down the shitter when Sasuke then focused just on MS and abadoned everything that he learned relying exclusively on MS, then the other BS powerups.

Itachi has and never will get any props from me.


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## Kyu (Jun 26, 2015)

Base Minato is notably stronger than the likes of Ei, Onoki, and the Sannin and is around the same level as Tobirama and Itachi(slightly stronger than the former & equal to the latter).


Jiraiya, Ei, and many other accomplished shinobi hyped Minato up for good reason. A shame he never reached his prime.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And yet his primary skills were Tobirama's, Kushina's, and Jiraiya's techniques. Do you think Itachi, with all his elite genius hype, is incapable of learning any of those skillsets if given the opportunity?
> 
> Most unbiased people would probably say no. So in that sense, Minato being "more" than Itachi in any sense is a luck of the draw on the situations/paths they were destined to walk, nothing more.
> 
> In terms of showing fundamental skill, ninja will, and traditional intellect, Itachi has the edge over Minato. Minato used to have creativity over Itachi, but that's no longer case.​



What a load of BS this is

Minato took these techniques and made them BETTER, he didn't just copy them. Your acting like Minato was Part 1 Kakashi. Minato's FTG was clearly superior then Tobirama's version, before Minato died he was trying to upgrade the Rasengan something Jiraiya didn't even think about doing.

Itachi on the other hand got techniques EVERY UCHIHA could conceivably get, talking about luck the only reason Itachi even got his MS was because of Shisui. Then another thing when he luckily unlocked MS all because of Shisui's doing he proceeds to stop trying to improve, Itachi's lazy. Fucking Obito gets more props from me for atleast trying to get stronger with his own power. Whats the one thing Itachi has that wasn't automatically gifted to him from EXISTIG? Exploding clones? Fuck me.

Honestly Instead of always Wanking Itachi, you should wank Shisui Everything you think Itachi is was literally taken from Shisui, Itachi even agrees that Shisui was superior in every way from Technique to personality Shisui is an actual badass.


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## thechickensage (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And yet his primary skills were Tobirama's, Kushina's, and Jiraiya's techniques. Do you think Itachi, with all his elite genius hype, is incapable of learning any of those skillsets if given the opportunity?
> 
> Most unbiased people would probably say no. So in that sense, Minato being "more" than Itachi in any sense is a luck of the draw on the situations/paths they were destined to walk, nothing more.
> 
> In terms of showing fundamental skill, ninja will, and traditional intellect, Itachi has the edge over Minato. Minato used to have creativity over Itachi, but that's no longer case.​



He invented the rasengan.  That's a big deal...and improved on an inherited jutsu (hiraishin).

Which of Jiraiya's techniques did he take?  He doesn't really use sage mode except for in the juubi arc.

Even Sasuke inherited his primary jutsu...and all of his ocular jutsu.



GilgameshXFate said:


> Honestly Instead of always Wanking Itachi, you should wank Shisui Everything you think Itachi is was literally taken from Shisui, Itachi even agrees that Shisui was superior in every way from Technique to personality Shisui is an actual badass.


I agree.  And shisui's shunshin was legendary, and unique to him.  I would have loved to see a Shisui vs Minato fight !!!!!!


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Base Minato is notably stronger than the likes of Ei, Onoki, and the Sannin and is around the same level as Tobirama and Itachi(slightly stronger than the former & equal to the latter).
> 
> 
> Jiraiya, Ei, and many other accomplished shinobi hyped Minato up for good reason. A shame he never reached his prime.



that makes no sense. 

@GilgameshXFate

calm down.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 26, 2015)

Probably at the top of high kage.  Once you get past him you step into DBZ.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

he has S/T barrier to deal with DBZ's attacks.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> And yet his primary skills were Tobirama's, Kushina's, and Jiraiya's techniques. Do you think Itachi, with all his elite genius hype, is incapable of learning any of those skillsets if given the opportunity?
> 
> Most unbiased people would probably say no. So in that sense, Minato being "more" than Itachi in any sense is a luck of the draw on the situations/paths they were destined to walk, nothing more.
> 
> In terms of showing fundamental skill, ninja will, and traditional intellect, Itachi has the edge over Minato. Minato used to have creativity over Itachi, but that's no longer case.​



Itachi used to be smart until Kishimoto decided intelligence meant using another eyeball technique tailor made to fit the situation.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> he has S/T barrier to deal with DBZ's attacks.



That doesn't help much against Hashirama terraforming the Sahara into a rain forest that wants to eat you.  He can warp home, but he's not winning that.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Do you think Itachi, with all his elite genius hype, is incapable of learning any of those skillsets if given the opportunity?​



This could apply to any of the manga's geniuses.

If he wanted to, Minato could practice and master seal weaving and substitution techniques to the point where he mirrors Itachi (he's certainly fast enough), and I doubt the Mangekyou techniques would prove too difficult for him if he was born a troubled Uchiha.

Rarely is it going to be a matter of incompetence with the super high level ninja, especially the super smart ones.


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## Kyu (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> that makes no sense.



Statements that make no sense to you are usually precise tho.


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Itachi used to be smart until Kishimoto decided intelligence meant using another eyeball technique tailor made to fit the situation.



honestly itachi only has fucked up plans all the time. It's just Kishi trying desperately to show his fuck ups as a good thing.  


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That doesn't help much against Hashirama terraforming the Sahara into a rain forest that wants to eat you.  He can warp home, but he's not winning that.



Honestly that thing is overrated. 
it's just like how Hiruzen stopped the attack, and the started fighting walking on the woods like
the other Kage were against Madara. Or how Minato got out of the Tree's humangest roots.

but anyway, forgot about. Talking about Hashirama is waste of time in my book. He showed how
worthy he is in the war to me. 



> Statements that make no sense to you are usually precise tho.



If you say so.


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## Ersa (Jun 26, 2015)

He's with the Itachi, Tobirama, Kabuto group. A cut above the Sannin and miles ahead of generic Kage like Mei and probably even further ahead of Jounin like Gaara.


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## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

he ranks where he always has in leagues with the likes of nagato and stronger than all war arc kages


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2015)

Minato is certainly above the sannin, above Gokage, all of Akatsuki except for Itachi & Pain.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 26, 2015)

In my opinion, Base Minato is High-Kage tier, just above the Sannin, Tobirama, Killer Bee and MS Kakashi. With Sage Mode he goes higher,  probably above SM Naruto and maybe Itachi.​​


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## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> In my opinion, Base Minato is High-Kage tier, just above the Sannin, Tobirama, Killer Bee and MS Kakashi. With Sage Mode he goes higher,  probably above SM Naruto and maybe Itachi.​​



base minato is still above Sm naruto though. there isnt a single person Sm naruto can beat that minato cant in base also base minato smacks Sm naruto


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## ThunderCunt (Jun 26, 2015)

I still see pein a bit higher on power scale, though Minato is pretty much top tier kage level, only people who could give him trouble are Itachi, Nagato, MS Obito, Tobirama, Hashirama, Rinnegan Sauce, Naruto with sage mode and Kyuubi mode


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## Altair21 (Jun 26, 2015)

For the most part he's on a tier with the likes of Itachi and Tobirama. People like to throw Nagato in that tier as well, but I'm of the opinion that he'd easily beat all 3 of them.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jun 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> base minato is still above Sm naruto though. there isnt a single person Sm naruto can beat that minato cant in base also base minato smacks Sm naruto



Under the same circumstances, I think Base Minato would have done worse against Pein than SM Naruto did. Minato has a poor damage output in base, he's just very evasive.​​


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

Minato is clearly superior to SM Narudo. O_o
Kishi kept comparing Naruto to Minato, even when the former received his BM.


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## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Under the same circumstances, I think Base Minato would have done worse against Pein than SM Naruto did. Minato has a poor damage output in base, he's just very evasive.​​



no path can survive a direct rasengan though
so minato wont have an issue putting them down


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Everything you think Itachi is was literally taken from Shisui, Itachi even agrees that Shisui was superior in every way from Technique to personality Shisui is an actual badass.



You should wank Tobirama, Jiraiya, and Kushina, as Minato would literally just have the Rasengan without taking their jutsu.

Shisui doesn't have the intelligence hype, mass genjutsu control hype, ninjutsu casting speed hype, blindspot weapon bending hype, and other fundamental skills that make me like Itachi.

His big eye techniques come second to me. But he's also the only one to manipulate time in Tsukuyomi, instantly incinerate things with Amaterasu, and have legendary items with Susano'o.​


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

you should wank Fugaku and Mikoto, Shisui, and Obito because itachi will have nothing without them. 

yeah, learning from the others is a huge sin.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> you should wank Shisui and Obito because itachi will have nothing without them.



What do you base this on? Kid Itachi was already 50/50 against Shisui in their spars, and the Uchiha considered kid (base) Itachi fully capable of killing Shisui and making it look like a suicide.​


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## Trojan (Jun 26, 2015)

We know obito is itachi's sensai based on what itachi's said.

We know from the Databook that Shisui is a crow user, the strongest genjutsu user, and probably the fastest
in the uchiha clan. 

...etc

even the cut scene presented Shisui as the superior uchiha.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> We know obito is itachi's sensai based on what itachi's said.



Right before he said his ultimate goal was to steal Sasuke's eyes.​


Hussain said:


> Shisui is the strongest genjutsu user.



Because of Kotoamatsukami. Ao did not believe Shisui could control huge numbers and remain undetectable like Itachi could.​


Hussain said:


> even the cut scene presented Shisui as the superior uchiha.



No, they didn't. Shisui was ahead of kid Itachi by _one match_ e.g. Kakashi and Gai, and Itachi ended up flickering in and saving Shisui from ROOT at the end. 

Shisui then gave Itachi a burden Shisui was too weak to bear. Then the Uchiha assumed base Itachi killed Shisui. Nothing canon puts Shisui above kid, base Itachi.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

i like your passion for itachi Strategoob cant lie. its adorable 
you are correct on all counts though 

itachi is far more original than minato 

sadly hand me down genetics which barely need any work dont leave much to be desired

both minato and itachi pale in front of how original tobirama is


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## Jadric23 (Jun 26, 2015)

Heck he is definitely in the top tier, reactions and reflexes superior to A in base mode. It is with mercy of konoha that the other nations are still alive.


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## Lawrence777 (Jun 26, 2015)

I'd also say Minato would fall near Tobirama-'Healthy' Itachi where level is concerned. Some other characters in that ballpark would be Killer Bee/KCM Naruto. I'm skeptical of putting Pain/Nagato in there given the clear discrepancy where scale is concerned.

But yeah I'd say that group is generally superior to sannin~gokage~akatsuki with the added caveat that higher end individuals within these lower groups such as(but not limited to) SM Jiraiya/Onoki/Kisame can push the above group to exceedingly higher amounts of difficulty or even win pending advantageous match up or match conditions. 

Outside exceptional individuals/conditions/matchups I think the above group messes up the lower group pretty damn bad and it's not close most of the time though.


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## Jadric23 (Jun 26, 2015)

Looking on top 10 hotties... hey wheres mei terumi?


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## thechickensage (Jun 26, 2015)

Jadric23 said:


> Looking on top 10 hotties... hey wheres mei terumi?



Don't forget anko!      Uhhh, pre-chapter 700

Tobirama gets a special award for most original.  I'm excluding creepy Orochimaru *shudders*


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sadly hand me down genetics which barely need any work dont leave much to be desired
> 
> both minato and itachi pale in front of how original tobirama is



I feel genetics is a moot point. They were all hugely blessed genetically with either eyes, reflexes, intellect or stamina. And they all had fantastic role models or teachers. All were lucky.​


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## Altair21 (Jun 26, 2015)

I love how Strategoob is trying to insinuate Minato has no creativity because he learned from others yet tries to suggest Itachi somehow did despite all his powers coming from a bloodline. 

If people really want to sit here and play this game then it can be played both ways. Minato should be thankful for Tobirama, Kushina, and Jiraiya? Ok. Well Itachi should be thankful for Kaguya, Hagoromo, and Indra because without them the Uchiha bloodline never even exists nor do his precious little MS powers. He should be thanking Shisui as well seeing as he let Itachi kill him, which gave him the MS. 

While I don't care for either of these characters, the depth at which people will reach to try and insinuate one is better than the other is outright laughable.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

Minato decided to focus on mastering Space/Time techniques, fuinjutsu, inventing Rasengan, etc. Itachi decided to focus on seal weaving, substitution techniques, genjutsu, etc etc.

Both of them can do things the other can't but possibly could if they tried hard enough. Minato can't grow a Sharingan no matter how hard he tries though.


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## Platypus (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and even funnier he (itachi) is a watered down version of him (Shisui). lol





GilgameshXFate said:


> Honestly Instead of always Wanking Itachi, you should wank Shisui Everything you think Itachi is was literally taken from Shisui, Itachi even agrees that Shisui was superior in every way from Technique to personality Shisui is an actual badass.





thechickensage said:


> I agree.  And shisui's shunshin was legendary, and unique to him.  I would have loved to see a Shisui vs Minato fight !!!!!!



Cute. 

If only he weren't completely featless.

If he was as epic and powerful as you guys make him up to be he wouldn't have lost his eye to Danzo. Not even taking filler material in mind. Since when did people start using obviously-contrived-for-gameplay-purposes Storm OVA's as evidence in the Battledome?


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 26, 2015)

Minato is on the level off Danzo,Nagato,Prime Hiruzen on a tier higher than Sannin but weaker than Hashirama


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## raptor360 (Jun 26, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Minato is on the level off Danzo,Nagato,Prime Hiruzen on a tier higher than Sannin but weaker than Hashirama



I don't rate danzo as high as nagato and prime hiruzen is featless.

All danzo has is multple lives,that dont matter since he gets oneshot by almost every character thats on the same level as nagato.

On topic I rate minato on the same level as Edo Itachi,Tobirama and Nagato.

BM Minato is way ahead of them and falls in between Hashirama and BM Naruto.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> I love how Strategoob is trying to insinuate Minato has no creativity because he learned from others yet tries to suggest Itachi somehow did despite all his powers coming from a bloodline.



In terms of their best creativity feats, the Rasengan loses to medically transplanting an MS into an animal, sealing it, and setting it as a triggered trap. The Rasengan loses by _a lot_.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2015)

>rasengan
>creative


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

Itachi didn't create Tensha Fūin, and I don't know why transplanting the eye is _more _creative than Rasengan or Shiki Fūjin . What are you basing that on?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi didn't create Tensha Fūin



If Obito said Itachi "somehow" did it, then chances are Itachi invented it.

Given Obito knows near everything Madara knew.



Rocky said:


> I don't know why transplanting the eye is _more _creative than Rasengan or Shiki Fūjin.



Shiki Fūjin is an Uzamaki jutsu.

Rasengan is literally a human-level beast bomb, but props to Minato for it.

And transplanting the MS and making it work with a little animal is huge given Konoha couldn't help p1 Kakashi keep the base Sharingan active for more than a few minutes without going into a coma. That's a great mad scientist feat.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> In terms of their best creativity feats, the Rasengan loses to medically transplanting an MS into an animal, sealing it, and setting it as a trigger traps. The Rasengan loses by _a lot_.​



Well there's also the feat of Minato breaking the Sharingans Control of the Kyubi,the only other that have this feat is Hashirama, and being able to completely outsmart Obito and screw over his Kamui hax.

The same Obito that Itachi said he needed EMS to compete with
So Itachi needed EMS to beat JUST Obito, without Kurama.


Also I like how you keep ignoring the fact that Minato didn't just take the jutsu from his sensei's but he IMPROVED them, just like Real life people find ways to 
improve previous inventions, that doesn't make them non creative, if anything it shows their creativity to find ways to make improvements to old inventions that the previous inventors didn't think about. 


Also about the Shisui thing, Shisui was better at the thing Itachi was best at, Genjutsu
plus he was hyped as Shisui of the Mirage, and as the Fastest Uchiha, which includes Itachi. Shisui also has an automatic win button against Itachi no matter what (kotoamatsukami).


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## Kai (Jun 26, 2015)

Tobirama and Itachi are on the same level; Minato's accumulated hype eclipses both of them, which has been consistently clear since the first chapter of the manga.

He stands closer with Pain and Obito (MS) than he does with Tobirama and Itachi imo.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Minato's hype eclipses Itachi's hype?

Mr. Perfect Ninja (Sasuke, Danzo) that puts the god of shinobi to shame?

Come on.

Itachi's not as famous, because his true metal was kept secret.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If Obito said Itachi "somehow" did it, then chances are Itachi invented it.
> 
> Given Obito knows everything Madara knew.



Madara used it on himself at the Valley of the End to not die to Hashirama.

This was before Itachi was born. 



Strategoob said:


> Shiki Fūjin is an Uzamaki jutsu.



Yeah I had just forgotten. Though I'm not sure if they actually used it since only the souls of the Hokage were sealed away when Orochimaru open the Death God's stomach. 



Strategoob said:


> Rasengan is basically just a human-level beast bomb.



I know. So?



Strategoob said:


> And transplanting the MS and making it work with a little animal is huge given Konoha couldn't help p1 Kakashi keep the base Sharingan active for more than a few minutes without going into a coma.



It's probably a variant of Tensha Fūin, or at least I hope you would agree to that.

Animals having a decent amount of chakra isn't unheard of, but that just looked like a normal crow, so Tensha Fūin would allow Itachi to bypass the crow's nonexistent Chakra pool, like he did with half dead Sasuke.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Animals having a decent amount of chakra isn't unheard of, but that just looked like a normal crow, so Tensha Fūin would allow Itachi to bypass the crow's nonexistent Chakra pool, like he did with half dead Sasuke.



The Sharingan remained active, and it was a human eye functioning for a crow.

But fair points.


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## Kai (Jun 26, 2015)

Itachi is the perfect ninja, there's no denying that. Kishimoto straight told us through Hashirama.

Where power is concerned takes a different pitch.

Minato was thought to be unsurpassed and was "first among all" in ability. Minato has more hype dedicated to his actual power than Itachi, the hype encompasses a broader spectrum than Itachi's, and I don't recall Minato having hyperbolic statements about his power like 'being invincible' either.


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## Six (Jun 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Mostly it's because people ignore his hype and feats by putting excuses like what usually is with Obito,( he did not know, experience blah blah blah...etc) or his feats with 8th Gate 5th Step Gai's speed (he slowed down, so Lee is fast? blah blah blah) and many other crap. Or focusing on "oh, he only has Rassengan" he can't hurt this or that...
> 
> As such, he is mostly dragged down to characters like B's level whom was trembling hearing his name,and Minato was dealing with him and A at the same time. Or people like Tobirama whom couldn't accomplish nearly as much as Minato, but just based on "he has the same jutsu". Or characters like itachi which is in this case based on overrating itachi over where the manga placed him (the sannin equal).
> 
> That's the general thing I suppose.


This entire post tells a lot about you. I see nothing here but double standards and hypocrisy, but


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Kai said:


> Where power is concerned takes a different pitch.



"Power" and "greatness" are intermingled for both.

But like you said, Itachi was a "greater" ninja.



Kai said:


> Minato was thought to be unsurpassed and was "first among all" in ability.



Do you know who said that? (Jiraiya.)

How knowledgeable/unbiased were they? 



Kai said:


> and I don't recall Minato having hyperbolic statements about his power like 'being invincible' either.



How is Minato being the "first among all" not hyperbolic?

Black Zetsu is also far more knowledgeable and far less biased.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

I said variant. I'm not saying it didn't take medical knowledge to put Shisui's eye into that crow, but the crow didn't mold chakra and use Koto Amatsukami. Itachi used it (and bled through his own eye), through the crow, on himself. I think. That scene still confuses me to this day.

If you think Itachi found himself a beastly crow, then okay, but why is that a result of his creativity?


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## StickaStick (Jun 26, 2015)

Above Tobirama and Itachi's general level.

About on an even plane with MS Obito's general level.

Below Nagato's general level.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you think Itachi found himself a beastly crow, then okay, but why is that a result of his creativity?



The entire plan crow -> eye -> seal -> trap was an example of creativity. 

Surpassing that of deriving the Rasengan from bijuu, IMO.


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## Six (Jun 26, 2015)

Didn't Minato make the rasengan from observing the tailed beast bomb? Some creativity. "Im gone aggregate a just just like the tailed beast"


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

It took intelligence no doubt, but yeah, I guess it's ultimately replication.


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## StickaStick (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Power" and "greatness" are intermingled for both.
> 
> But like you said, Itachi was a "greater" ninja.





> Do you know who said that? (Jiraiya.)
> 
> How knowledgeable/unbiased were they?


So Hashirama's quote is acceptable, despite modestly being an obvious tool to placate Sasuke, but Jiraiya's isn't based on the idea that Jiraiya is less knowledgeable when he actually lived during the current era and had the benefit of having knowledge on previous generations while Hashirama didn't and didn't.

Interesting take there.



Law Trafalgar said:


> Didn't Minato make the rasengan from observing the tailed beast bomb? Some creativity. "Im gone aggregate a just just like the tailed beast"


Most inventions take some kind of inspiration. Using this as a mark against Minato is about as desperate an attempt one can make to discredit someone.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The entire plan crow -> eye -> seal -> trap was an example of creativity.
> 
> Surpassing that of deriving the Rasengan from bijuu, IMO.



The plan itself, or the individual jutsu used to accomplish it? 

Does sealing an eye power (into a being that you wouldn't expect to use said eye power) so that it activates at the sight of another's Sharingan sound familiar to you?

Because it sure sounds like a transcription seal technique to me. I'd say Itachi expanded on Madara's jutsu.


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## Kai (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Power" and "greatness" are intermingled for both.
> 
> But like you said, Itachi was a "greater" ninja.


For example, Obito said Itachi never ceased to amaze him. 

He was always cautious about what Itachi knew based on his strong allegiance and intel with Konoha. But never did he actually fear Itachi's power.




			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> Do you know who said that? (Jiraiya.)
> 
> How knowledgeable/unbiased were they?


A thought Minato couldn't be surpassed. How biased is he?




			
				Strategoob said:
			
		

> How is Minato being the "first among all" not hyperbolic?
> 
> Black Zetsu is also far more knowledgeable and far less biased.


Because the hype is in line with everything that was introduced along with Minato since his introduction. Being "first among all", unsurpassed, and only surmountable by Naruto are a family of hype tools consistent since the beginning of the manga.

Itachi being invincible? It was then referenced towards Pain in the parallel fight only moments apart.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 26, 2015)

He's above the likes of Part 1 Sannin, but I'd honestly argue that any Sage User can contend with Base Minato.


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## Rocky (Jun 26, 2015)

All Sages are High Kage (or better) if they actually reach Sage Mode.


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## Six (Jun 26, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> So Hashirama's quote is acceptable, despite modestly being an obvious tool to placate Sasuke, but Jiraiya's isn't based on the idea that Jiraiya is less knowledgeable when he actually lived during the current era and had the benefit of having knowledge on previous generations while Hashirama didn't and didn't.
> 
> Interesting take there.
> 
> ...



I'm not discrediting him, i read earlier that someone said Minato had created the rasengan taken from no inspiration.


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## StickaStick (Jun 26, 2015)

Oh, okay. My bad then lol.


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## Altair21 (Jun 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> In terms of their best creativity feats, the Rasengan loses to medically transplanting an MS into an animal, sealing it, and setting it as a triggered trap. The Rasengan loses by _a lot_.​





Creating an A rank jutsu is far more impressive than medically transplanting an eye into an animal. Not to mention there's absolutely no indication that Itachi was the only one capable of doing that. You're completely speculating on that front. 

If this is the best you've got at attempting to prove that Itachi is more intuitive than Minato then you're in for a long ride.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 26, 2015)

Kai said:


> But never did he actually fear Itachi's power.



This is your interpretation and opinion, not a fact. When Kishimoto wrote his movie, he arguably had a contrary opinion, as Obito immediately retreated from a confrontation with Itachi after Itachi mentioned he knew a way to beat his Kamui.​


Kai said:


> Because the hype is in line with everything that was introduced along with Minato since his introduction. Being "first among all", unsurpassed, and only surmountable by Naruto are a family of hype tools consistent since the beginning of the manga.



Similarly, "only a Sharingan user with Uchiha blood can possibly defeat me" was Itachi's introductory hype, and it was only padded from there in a much richer variety of ways (intellect, greatness, versatility in ability, etc.) than any other character.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2015)

Kai said:


> For example, Obito said Itachi never ceased to amaze him.
> 
> He was always cautious about what Itachi knew based on his strong allegiance and intel with Konoha. But never did he actually fear Itachi's power.



The thing is, Obito felt confident enough that he could take on Minato when he was basically a kid himself.
And I'm pretty sure he didn't fear Minato up until he got his shit pushed back in either.

Asuma didn't fear Itachi when they first met. And so on. 

Obito being vary of Itachi and abiding by the conditions he set until Itachi died is enough evidence to know that he didn't want to cross him and respected him. 

And Itachi gained that respect as a much younger person than Minato.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, Obito felt confident enough that he could take on Minato when he was basically a kid himself.
> And I'm pretty sure he didn't fear Minato up until he got his shit pushed back in either.
> 
> Asuma didn't fear Itachi when they first met. And so on.
> ...




Well first of all Obito was backed up by the Kyubi, you know the strongest of the Biju, and even with that misplaced confidence Minato still whooped his ass. If anything I'll say Obito learned not to underestimate people from that experience, I'll argue that Obito was just being overly cautious because Itachi COULD kill him.

Also notice that even with this "fear" of Itachi, Itachi himself said he needed EMS to even compete with Obito, and obviously Obito it plainly not gonna be as confident as he was, when he had the Kyubi under his control. Itachi also never went after Obito, if he was strong enough to beat him why didn't hunt him down?

Obito might not have had this "Fear" of Minato that he had of Itachi, but that didn't stop Minato from actually doing something about Obito unlike Itachi who couldn't kill Obito even by taking him by surprise with Amaterasu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Well first of all Obito was backed up by the Kyubi, you know the strongest of the Biju, and even with that misplaced confidence Minato still whooped his ass.


If his reassurance was Kyuubi then he wouldn't try to 1on1 Minato.



> If anything I'll say Obito learned not to underestimate people from that experience, I'll argue that Obito was just being overly cautious because Itachi COULD kill him.


Could be.



> Also notice that even with this "fear" of Itachi, Itachi himself said he needed EMS to even compete with Obito, and obviously Obito it plainly not gonna be as confident as he was, when he had the Kyubi under his control. Itachi also never went after Obito, if he was strong enough to beat him why didn't hunt him down?


Itachi said he needed EMS to surpass the Legendary Invincible Immortal. Itachi was referring to Madara @ his peak, not Obito. 
Itachi had no idea who Obito was. He believed the masked man was Madara.



> Obito might not have had this "Fear" of Minato that he had of Itachi, but that didn't stop Minato from actually doing something about Obito unlike Itachi who couldn't kill Obito even by taking him by surprise with Amaterasu.


Itachi never tried to kill Obito. Obito said that Itachi implanted the Amaterasu to shut him up in case he and Sasuke cross paths. 
Link removed

Itachi anticipated that Obito would try to turn Sasuke against Konoha by telling him the truth.
Link removed
Link removed

That wasn't his end game plan btw. Koto was.
And oh, Minato couldn't kill Obito either, fyi.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If his reassurance was Kyuubi then he wouldn't try to 1on1 Minato.



True, That being said This was Obito who just got all this power from Madara
So he was probably just cocky that he could beat Minato. Obito being cocky is prevalent through his character untill after Minato beat him, hm I wonder if it was because of the stomping Minato gave him, humbled him 







Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi said he needed EMS to surpass the Legendary Invincible Immortal. Itachi was referring to Madara @ his peak, not Obito.
> Itachi had no idea who Obito was. He believed the masked man was Madara


.

The thing is Itachi DIDN'T KNOW what Madara could do in life. The only thing
Itachi had that he could base Madara's power on was what Obito showed, as far as he was concerned and could see Obito=Madara. Unless Itachi had some
form of knowledge on Madara that hasn't been shown in the manga, all of hist
statements can be transferred to Obito.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi never tried to kill Obito. Obito said that Itachi implanted the Amaterasu to shut him up in case he and Sasuke cross paths.
> Link removed



Yeah shut him up by killing him lol. Lets think about this for a second. If Itachi's trap wasn't to kill Obito and only prevented him from speaking to Sasuke. If it didnt work, like in the actual manga, what prevented Obito from speaking to Sasuke after surviving it lol. Its pretty clear that was suppose to kill him.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> That wasn't his end game plan btw. Koto was.
> And oh, Minato couldn't kill Obito either, fyi.



Yeah Minato couldn't kill Obito because he warped away lol, after he realized
he couldn't do anything to Minato, Hell Minato would of killed him straight up, If he didn't need to save the village as usual against the Kyubi. In a straight up match Minato would of killed Obito in 1 chapter just like in the manga.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 26, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> The thing is Itachi DIDN'T KNOW what Madara could do in life. The only thing
> Itachi had that he could base Madara's power on was what Obito showed, as far as he was concerned and could see Obito=Madara. Unless Itachi had some
> form of knowledge on Madara that hasn't been shown in the manga, all of hist
> statements can be transferred to Obito.


Itachi knew about EMS, he also knew Masked man didn't have it(because Obito didn't have it). 
So It is very doubtful that Itachi based what Madara could or could not do on a guy without EMS.
Itachi also knew exclusive details about Madara, most likely heard from Obito, who heard from Madara so Itachi should have a vague idea about what Madara's power was like.

So no, Itachi had a clear image in his head when he was talking to Sasuke. That was Madara with EMS on, the guy who fought and lost to Hashirama @ Vote. 



> Yeah shut him up by killing him lol. Lets think about this for a second. If Itachi's trap wasn't to kill Obito and only prevented him from speaking to Sasuke. If it didnt work, like in the actual manga, what prevented Obito from speaking to Sasuke after surviving it lol. Its pretty clear that was suppose to kill him.


Yes, in the off chance he and Sasuke crossed paths. What I'm saying is, Itachi wasn't actively trying to kill Obito, mostly because he had no reason to because Obito was complying with Itachi's ultimatum. He only considered "shutting him up" when he was going to die and he suspected that Obito would approach Sasuke.
And Itachi knew Obito could overcome the Amaterasu trap, hence his real fail safe was Koto inside Naruto, which Obito didn't know about.



> Yeah Minato couldn't kill Obito because he warped away lol, after he realized
> he couldn't do anything to Minato, Hell Minato would of killed him straight up, If he didn't need to save the village as usual against the Kyubi. In a straight up match Minato would of killed Obito in 1 chapter just like in the manga.


And he could have retreated from Itachi the same way, and their deal would be off. Itachi's priority was keeping Konoha and Sasuke safe, as long as Obito sticked to his side of the agreement, he had no reason to confront him.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 26, 2015)

Base Minato is a cut above the likes of Itachi, Tobirama, and HM Jiraiya.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 26, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> True, That being said This was Obito who just got all this power from Madara
> So he was probably just cocky that he could beat Minato. Obito being cocky is prevalent through his character untill after Minato beat him, hm I wonder if it was because of the stomping Minato gave him, humbled him



 This hurts your argument. If a cocky being such as Obito felt the need to take necessary precautions against Itachi, then logic would dictate that Itachi is simply a threat to Obito. No cocky characer takes precautions against someone they don't deem as threat. Doesn't even remotely make any sense at all. 





.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This hurts your argument. If a cocky being such as Obito felt the need to take necessary precautions against Itachi, then logic would dictate that Itachi is simply a threat to Obito. No cocky characer takes precautions against someone they don't deem as threat. Doesn't even remotely make any sense at all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm saying that Obito WAS cocky, up until he got completely stomped by Minato. Obito afterwords became alot more cautious and didn't take any risks when he didn't need to. The entire argument was that Obito DIDN"T feel threatened by Minato like he was with Itachi, But I'm arguing that's only because of Minato's stomping that Obito became more cautious not because of Itachi's actual threat.

That being said I also don't blame Obito feeling of self confidence considering he had the frickin Kyubi to back him up. Kurama himself is probably what gave him the confidence to fight Minato to begin with, It's telling that Obito waited until AFTER he got Kurama to fight Minato then try to fight him before.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 27, 2015)

Base Minato solidified that he was at the top of High Kage tier (near Rinnegan Obito & Nagato) in the War-arc by reacting to truth seekers/warping them and outpacing Kamui with his kunai throws & Rasengan manifestation, not to mention reacting to, and thus warping out of Obito's grab Kamui. 

He's the fastest of anyone at or below High Kage level ocular/mentally as well as a couple ninja above his tier, his skills (weapon skill, verse knowledge, jutsu invention, chakra control) are some of the best in the verse. The frogs, limited SM & S-rank seals (4 Symbols, 8 Trigram, Death Reaper, Flying Thunder God Seal) only add to his power scale.

He's by far the strongest shinobi without bloodline advantages or bodily modifications (Uzumaki, Senju, Uchiha), which means he was, naturally, the most talented ninja in history, the only true shinobi among lucky descendants/experimental monsters (Hashirama, Madara, Nagato, Naruto, Sasuke, Kakashi, Obito, Kabuto, Tobirama).


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 27, 2015)

Like someone already said, he doesn't require all the bs God given handouts and power ups or special genes or modifications. This is why he's my fav, "Natural Born Talent". I find him more interesting because of this fact.

Only a bitter Itachi fan can have the audacity to call him a copycat. At least hes invented techniques. Nothing was bestowed upon him, even becoming a jinchuuriki was minato's doing.

Everyone has gained techniques from their predecessors, so I don't see why anyone feels the need to call it copying, especially when improvements and mastery come into play
play. 

Along with Might Guy, he's the most talented true shinobi that kishi has ever made.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Minato didn't invent anything unique though. Literally nothing. Uzamaki jutsu, Tobirama's jutsu, Jiraiya's jutsu, and tailed beast jutsu. _Everything_ he has are hand-me-downs.

And Minato was born with incredible genetics that bestowed on him sharp intellect and sharper reflexes. And Arian good looks. Not being Uchiha doesn't mean he wasn't handed silver spoons at birth. 

You all make that distinction in order for him to not be overshadowed by more impressive people, even though in the end, he benefited from his heritage more than 99.9% of Uchiha.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Can someone please show me the manga panel where Minato was given the instructions of Hirashin? Moreover, how was Minato the only ninja to be able to learn Hirashin and then make it better? 

If so, why was Minato that could learn Hirashin? What did he have that every other ninja did not?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Is there a panel of any other ninja even being shown how to use Tobirama's Hiraishin? How many students does Jiraiya take on? Do Uzamaki tutor everybody on their jutsu? 

This is beside the point, however. Minato is talented, and no doubt only small percent of people have the talent to learn those jutsu. But he did have a lot of help from both birth and life circumstance.

So in that sense, there's no "underdog" nature that's special about him. He was born with huge gifts, and was handed down special techniques, and mastered them. Sounds familiar.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Is there a panel of any other ninja even being shown how to use Tobirama's Hiraishin? How many students does Jiraiya take on? Do Uzamaki tutor everybody on their jutsu?
> 
> This is beside the point, however. Minato is talented, and no doubt only small percent of people have the talent to learn those jutsu. But he did have a lot of help from both birth and life circumstance.
> 
> So in that sense, there's nothing special about him that puts him above any Uchiha. He was handed down special techniques, and mastered them.​



Stop trying to avoid the question. Show me evidence where Minato was the only ninja ever to be specifically handed down the keys to Hirashin. If Hirashin was actually written down for people to use, then Minato and Tobirama wouldn't be the only S/T ninjutsu users. 

Unless you are trying to say that Minato is the only ninja *ever *to be smart enough to learn Hirashin and then make it better. Lmao, teenage Minato doing what no ninja could ever dream of.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

He's not the only to use Hiraishin. We saw fodder body guards using it, but because they were fodder, they had to use it as a team.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He's not the only to use Hiraishin. We saw fodder body guards using it, but because they were fodder, they had to use it as a team.​



Oh, the people Minato taught. And it took all three. No one was there to teach Minato. If so, we would have heard it from Jiraiya.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Oh, the people Minato taught. And it took all three. No one was there to teach Minato.



You're basing that assumption on nothing. Hiraishin is a technique that had been around for generations thanks to Tobirama. Hiruzen was also said to know all of the jutsu in the village, so he could likely help Minato with the basics of the technique.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Sure it has. Glad you have evidence Jiraiya taught Minato hiraishin. Moreover, why didn't Jiraiya teach Naruto such a strong ninjutsu?

Glad you concede.


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## thechickensage (Jun 27, 2015)

Hiraishin probably involves
- a lot of chakra
- perfect chakra control
- danger to self (don't want to warp away just your torso)
- extreme concentration

Maybe it was a forbidden jutsu for others due to the difficulty/danger?

You would think that Minato would try to teach his jutsu to the one of the geniuses of the next generation...Kakashi would have been a good candidate, but maybe was Kakashi was too young


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Sure it has. Glad you have evidence Jiraiya taught Minato hiraishin. Moreover, why didn't Jiraiya teach Naruto such a strong ninjutsu?
> 
> Glad you concede.



 Perhaps he believed that using FTG in a way to cause confusion and strike within one's blindspot wasn't Naruto's forte. He, at the time, charged at his opponents recklessly and relied on overpowering his opponents with his Kage Bushin and Ninjutsu. FTG requires one to use it in such a way where he managed to catch his opponent(s) by surprise in order to gain the upper-hand and land an unexpected strike. Naruto at the time, wasn't believed to be as tactical as he was displayed to be after the Wind Arc.

 Hell, one could argue that since JIraiya didn't teach Naruto Sage Mode, so therefore Jiraiya doesn't have experience with Sage Mode while we know the opposite is shown to be true.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Perhaps he believed that using FTG in a way to cause confusion and strike within one's blindspot wasn't Naruto's forte. He, at the time, charged at his opponents recklessly and relied on overpowering his opponents with his Kage Bushin and Ninjutsu.



I don't understand this point at all. If Naruto had learned Hirashin, he wouldn't have to try and overpower his opponents as much. Learning new jutsu obviously changes fighting styles. Look @ the difference between Hebi Sasuke and EMS Sasuke 



> FTG requires one to use it in such a way where he managed to catch his opponent(s) by surprise in order to gain the upper-hand and land an unexpected strike. Naruto at the time, wasn't believed to be as tactical as he was displayed to be after the Wind Arc.



Hirashin is a great utility ninjutsu. You don't need your opponents surpirsed to be able to use it. Moreover, Naruto has shown to be a tactical genius since the beginning of the manga.




> Hell, one could argue that since JIraiya didn't teach Naruto Sage Mode, so therefore Jiraiya doesn't have experience with Sage Mode while we know the opposite is shown to be true.



Jiraiya had SM in his arsenal and not Hirashin. Therefore, this point is moot.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato didn't invent anything unique though. Literally nothing. Uzamaki jutsu, Tobirama's jutsu, Jiraiya's jutsu, and tailed beast jutsu. _Everything_ he has are hand-me-downs.​





You know Alexander G Bell invented the first Telephone does that make the Iphone any less inventive? Did the first computer's make our modern computer's any less unique? This is just such a weird argument since we know Minato INVENTED jutsu, not creative or not, _What has Itachi done?_ Itachi has made 0 improvements to any of the Uchiha techniques, what you claim Minato of is exactly what Itachi did lol.





Strategoob said:


> You all make that distinction in order for him to not be overshadowed by more impressive people, even though in the end, he benefited from his heritage more than 99.9% of Uchiha.



Do you want me to list you all the Techniques that Itachi has without his Uchiha piggyback ride? That's all and then you have to account for how many of those are just copied with the Sharingan. Then take the fact that Itachi has Invented 0 jutsu, you can't possibly tell me with a straight face Minato benefited more from his Generic bloodline, compared to Itachi Uchiha.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Exploding Clone
Karasu Bunshin
Finger Genjutsu
Crappy Suiton
Crappy Katon


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Do you want me to list you all the Techniques that Itachi has without his Uchiha piggyback ride? That's all and then you have to account for how many of those are just copied with the Sharingan. Then take the fact that Itachi has Invented 0 jutsu, you can't possibly tell me with a straight face Minato benefited more from his Generic bloodline, compared to Itachi Uchiha.



Itachi invented the finger genjutsu, an undetectable mass genjutsu, and performed the only known human-animal ocular transplant through which he could cast basic and advanced genjutsu.

That said, Itachi certainly had the talent to learn most everything Minato and other Konoha ninja knew, but missed the opportunity, because he was asked to be a wandering nunekin as a child.

Minato had the benefit of growing up in a nurturing village atmosphere, and being taught great techniques from various elites. Itachi being more "privileged" than Minato is a complete joke. 

Itachi's basic ninja skills are the only ones hyped as prodigious throughout the manga. His basic, every-day ninja skills were honed to such a degree that it caused others to marvel. 

The databook says it was that genius that destined him to carry the secret burden for Konoha, one that Shisui wasn't strong enough to bear, and why Itachi paid his entire life as an isolated enemy to all.

So saying that Minato, who had a Sannin, Tobirama's scrolls, and Uzamaki heiress handing him jutsu on a platter, married the love of his life, ran a loving village, etc. was more privileged is _hilarious_.​


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## Empathy (Jun 27, 2015)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He is definitely above people like deidara, sasori, kakuzu, danzo and anyone like them i hope that is not contested.
> 
> Minato's "peers" on a tier list are people like itachi, killer bee, pain, obito and people like them.



I'd contest Minato being superior to Danzo, or at least consider it questionable. The same goes for some of his peers you mentioned. Danzo has a jutsu more broken than _Kamui_, but lacks the fan-base to have that fact magnified, despite it being more practical where it puts his standing above most of Minato's peers.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 27, 2015)

I think it's because when most people think of Danzō fighting the first thing they recall is his Sasuke fight where he didn't use Koto, instead of the Kages' meeting where he got Mifune with it (if that's the Jutsu you're referring to).


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> I'd contest Minato being superior to Danzo, or at least consider it questionable. The same goes for some of his peers you mentioned. Danzo has a jutsu more broken than _Kamui_, but lacks the fan-base to have that fact magnified, despite it being more practical where it puts his standing above most of Minato's peers.



I assume you are talking about kotoamatsukami. Yeah of course if he has that eye power at the start of every match then he could just mind control and take the match. Unless the other combatant fake out with a bunshin or something(if they start off the match without being able to see each other etc).

Like FR suggested i was talking about danzo if he was forced into doing some actual combat.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi invented the finger genjutsu, an undetectable mass genjutsu, and performed the only known human-animal ocular transplant through which he could cast basic and advanced genjutsu.​




Since when did Itachi invent any of these jutsu? The finger Genjutsu is just generic genjutsu. There's no proof of any mass undetectable Genjutsu, Shikaku just thought it MIGHT be Itachi, but there really is no proof of anything and to assume Itachi has such a Genjutsu has no basis in any of his performances in the manga. As far as the Transplanting goes, Chunin level Rin was able to transplant a Sharingan with apparently no problem, so unless Transplanting a sharingan into an animal is so much more difficult, then that just puts Itachi at Rin level.



Strategoob said:


> That said, Itachi certainly had the talent to learn everything Minato and other Konoha ninja knew, but missed the opportunity, because he was asked to be a wandering nunekin as a child.



Itachi stayed in Konoha long enough to become ANBU captain, so you can't tell me he didn't have the opportunity to learn other jutsu, other then generic Katons. 



Strategoob said:


> Minato had the benefit of growing up in a nurturing village atmosphere, and being taught great techniques from various elites. Itachi being more "privileged" than Minato is a complete joke.



I never said Itachi had an easier life then Minato, I'm saying that he took advantage of his natural heritage more then Minato, A fact thats undisputed considering Minato Had NO special skills inherited from birth like Itachi, Yes Minato was born a Genius but his actual blood was just like an average Shinobi.



Strategoob said:


> Itachi's basic ninja skills are the only ones hyped as prodigious throughout the manga. His basic skills were taken to such a degree that it caused others to marvel.



Don't even get started on the hype argument because you WILL lose that one, Itachi's hype isn't comparable to Minato's im leaving it at that.



Strategoob said:


> The databook says it was that genius that destined him to carry the secret burden for Konoha, one that Shisui wasn't strong enough to bear, and why Itachi paid his entire life as an isolated enemy to all.



Yeah Itachi paid his life to complete the dream that Shisui had, noble but has nothing to do with Genius or lack of opportunities.



Strategoob said:


> So saying that Minato, who had a Sannin, Sandaime Hokage, and Uzamaki heiress handing him jutsu on a platter, married the love of his life, ran a loving village, etc. was more privileged is _hilarious_.



See you're so caught up on WHERE Minato got his jutsu instead of looking at what Minato did to IMPROVE the jutsu, a fact that you avoid answering since the beginning by the way. Minato isn't a genius because of what he was taught, he's a genius because of how he uses the jutsu he was taught.

Now this conversation should be ended as it strays far from what the thread originally was suppose to be about, How strong Base Minato is. This thread isn't about comparing Minato and Itachi's life experiences and who's the bigger genius level, and whos more creative or not. Its all pretty irrelevant at the end of the day lol.

Edit: To the people above I think its pretty obvious hes talking about 10 minute of invincibility from Izanagi lol


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That said, Itachi certainly had the talent to learn most everything Minato and other Konoha ninja knew, but missed the opportunity, because he was asked to be a wandering nunekin as a child.
> 
> Minato had the benefit of growing up in a nurturing village atmosphere, and being taught great techniques from various elites. Itachi being more "privileged" than Minato is a complete joke.



I would slice and dice your whole post but someone already did it 

But just to hit one this one specific portion, you are completely inaccurate. As an Akatsuki member, Itachi was able to go around from village to village learning/stealing different jutsu as stated that the Akatsuki did per the manga. Moreover, you act like Minato was in the village instead of on the battlefield his whole life. From the time he was nine, the Konoha called upon him to do everything. Just like Itachi, Minato held the Konoha on his shoulders.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

Going by strength, if you remove his sage mode, tailed beast powers and Hiraishin, Minato would probably rank somewhere among the kages during the war (most likely below Oonoki and above the rest). The removal of those three things would essentially damage his untouchable status, leaving him with rasengan and summons. 

In the end, he'd just be a faster, smarter and not quite as strong (physically) version of base Jiraiya.

Edit: He'd still have Shiki Fuujin, but I don't consider that in this debate considering it's more of a stalemate move.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 27, 2015)

Above Nagato&Tobi

in the same tier as Prime Tobirama


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Going by strength, if you remove his sage mode, tailed beast powers and Hiraishin, Minato would probably rank somewhere among the kages during the war (most likely below Oonoki and above the rest). The removal of those three things would essentially damage his untouchable status, leaving him with rasengan and summons.
> 
> In the end, he'd just be a faster, smarter and not quite as strong (physically) version of base Jiraiya.
> 
> Edit: He'd still have Shiki Fuujin, but I don't consider that in this debate considering it's more of a stalemate move.



What about with Hiraishin? Would be be above the Former kages? (Gengetsu,Muu etc) Or just about their level?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> As far as the Transplanting goes, Chunin level Rin was able to transplant a Sharingan with apparently no problem



Medical skill does not correlate to fighting strength.



GilgameshXFate said:


> so unless Transplanting a sharingan into an animal is so much more difficult



Really, bro?



GilgameshXFate said:


> I never said Itachi had an easier life then Minato, I'm saying that he took advantage of his natural heritage more then Minato.



Fair enough.



GilgameshXFate said:


> Don't even get started on the hype argument because you WILL lose that one, Itachi's hype isn't comparable to Minato's im leaving it at that.



Itachi has better hype. Bring it on.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> What about with Hiraishin? Would be be above the Former kages? (Gengetsu,Muu etc) Or just about their level?


Against the former kages even with Hiraishin, Muu and the 3rd Raikage are the only ones I see him having difficulty/losing against. I don't think he can win against them without Sage Mode. 3rd Raikage was able to tank an SM fused FRS. We also have to entertain the idea that Muu likely has knowledge of Hiraishin to some extent, as he knew Tobirama well enough to know about the Edo Tensei.

But he trolls Gengetsu and Rasa almost immediately though. Gengetsu's strongest ability is with the clam jutsu, but Minato can use the sensing technique (similar to Tobirama) in order to locate the shinobi. Rasa, despite having the gold dust technique, once Minato makes it to him, he'll easily Rasengan him and it'll be over quick.

Minato's greatest design flaw is he has displayed no elemental jutsu.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 28, 2015)

Itachi doesn't have better hype, multiple S-ranks, including 3 Kages (Tsunade, Kakashi & A) and teacher of two future Kage (Jiraiya) outright acknowledged Minato as nearly unrivaled in power, that is literally the ultimate hype feat possible. 

The manga started with a panel dedicated to the 4th Hokage, that was legit the first panel of this 700 chapter comic: [1]. Hype feats *began* with him. 

As far as feats- he's legit a tier above Itachi. And if you want to bring Edo Itachi into the conversation- Edo Minato is a tier/several tiers above him.

Itachi's entire arsenal was accumulated from his Sharingan, he invented nothing and had the luxury of seeing the secrets behind Tai/Nin/Gen through his ocular technique. His most powerful techniques are literally Sharingan (MS) based, augmented by the two most powerful artifacts (in the verse) he, of all people, happened to have possessed (Yata/Totsuka) (legit both of them somehow). 

Minato invented:
1. FTG Barrier
2. FTG: Second Step
3. Rasengan

The rest of his arsenal he mastered without the help of jutsu-copying dojutsu, that includes the most powerful seals in existence, formidable summons, and the fastest weapon techniques in the verse~ not to mention calling him a genius with chakra control would be an understatement and of course the fact that his reflexes and limb speed are rivaled by few in history~ none of which were augmented by the world's top spiritual artifacts.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi doesn't have better hype, multiple S-ranks, including 3 Kages (Tsunade, Kakashi & A) and teacher of two future Kage (Jiraiya) outright acknowledged Minato as nearly unrivaled in power, that is literally the ultimate hype feat possible.
> 
> The manga started with a panel dedicated to the 4th Hokage, that was legit the first panel of this 700 chapter comic: [1]. Hype feats *began* with him.
> 
> ...



Great post. + Reps.

You should also add that at the age of nine, Minato defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha under Prime Hiruzen's & the Sannin's guard and stole the Konoha's strongest weapon. Only Minato was able to stop these ninjas, as Prime Hiruzen could do nothing.

In addition to his battles as a child, he was also the only ninja given a flee on sight order in the history of the manga. Both the Kumo and Rock felt that Minato was strong enough to solo their whole village.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 30, 2015)

You know you're an Itachi wanker if you say Minato invented nothing unique. 

The fact that the third databook clearly states that he invented many jutsu in his own style,  implies that we've only scratched the surface of minato's arsenal. 

Feat wise he invented 2 incredible ninjutsu. Which at 24 years old is amazing :

1. Rasengan - anyone who wants to argue that because he got inspiration from something that is physically impossible to for a human to create, should just log off. Since when do people not have inspirations for their inventions. 

2. Guiding Thunder - he literally tears open a hole in space.  Something only those with powerful dojutsu are capable of. Eg Kaguya and Obito, and even obito can't warp an entire tbb.


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## Ersa (Jun 30, 2015)

I question if there is a several tier difference between Edo Itachi and Edo Minato. There are few people stronger then Itachi and weaker than Minato, off the top of my head I can think of Nagato and KCM Naruto. And to the latter two depending on the favorable conditions Itachi can still win.

I won't pretend Minato is not the superior here if we're talking about their zombie forms but please don't throw out rubbish like a several tier difference because you kind of need characters to have a several-tier difference you know?


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

Top Tiers are far stronger than High Tiers, but it's still only one tier.


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## Ersa (Jun 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Top Tiers are far stronger than High Tiers, but it's still only one tier.


Yep it's only a tier though I'd say since I feel you need people to make a tier and the people between Minato and Itachi (KCM Naruto, Nagato, maybe EMS Sasuke), Itachi mostly still stands a decent chance against.


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## Rocky (Jun 30, 2015)

EMS Sasuke has Peerfect Susano'o, so no, Itachi doesn't stand a chance.

Nagato and KCM Naruto are almost bridge-the-gap characters. Edo Itachi is much closer to them than he is the actual Top Tiers with Megazords.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 8, 2015)

Edo Itachi is High-Kage, the same tier as Living Minato. 

Edo Minato warped a Juubidama and the entire alliance, has Bijuu Mode and Sage Mode, is immortal and was battling Jubito alongside Naruto. 

Lacking characters to fill the gap is an issue, however...

I'll rephrase it: 

Edo Minato is several times stronger than Edo Itachi, which is actually worse for him.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

> Minato was stated to be the biggest Genius ever produced by Konoha



Wanna see that statement. Scan, please.



> Onoki was so scared of Minato he felt he couldn't be beaten under any circumstance



Scan, please. 



> Minato Namikaze easily avoided V2 Ei's Shunshin a feat that MS Sasuke couldn't reproduce even with the Sharingan enhanced perception, a feat that took Naruto several power ups to replicate the feat, now this is Minato's Speed and reflexes without Hiraishin.



First, that may be V2, but that V2 is not even comparable to the one MS Sasuke faced, or Edo Madara faced. Young Ei and prime Ei are in 2 different tiers.

Second, with Hiraishin. Minato used Hiraishin in order to avoid Ei's Shunshin attacks. Nevertheless, young Bee could react to Minato 2 times in that fight.



> Pre-Rinnegan Obito one of the strongest in the Akatsuki aided by the KYUBBI the strongest Biju was Humiliated by Minato, Even with the advantage of full Knowledge and Minato having none Obito still got completely outsmarted, the feat of defeating the Kyubbi+ a strong Uchiha are feats shared by very few people, namely HASHIRAMA the strongest Hokage.



That Obito was a young teenager, below his prime. It's like comparing teenager Kakashi to his adult self in Part 1. And he reacted to Minato several times. He almost killed Minato on one occasion by sucking him in Kamui dimension.

Anyway, Minato is definetely above most of the Akatsuki and Sannin. A high-tier shinobi, that's for sure.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

Scans of young A being In a different tier from war arc A

Go on I'll wait


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Scans of young A being In a different tier from war arc A
> 
> Go on I'll wait



Raikage Ei's Raiton was thicker. Minato, while being a sensor, wasnt shocked about young Ei's chakra levels, while Kirin was terrified about Raikage Ei's chakra levels. There is no proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra at that moment. And, finally, Raikage Ei has feats far above those of his younger counterpart.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jul 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Raikage Ei's Raiton was thicker. Minato, while being a sensor, wasnt shocked about young Ei's chakra levels, while Kirin was terrified about Raikage Ei's chakra levels. There is no proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra at that moment. And, finally, Raikage Ei has feats far above those of his younger counterpart.



U wut m8? Something that shocks Karin will not shock Minato. Karin probably hasn't seen a 1/20th of Minato has seen during his time alive. Why you even tried to use that as evidence it hilarious


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> U wut m8? Something that shocks Karin will not shock Minato. Karin probably hasn't seen a 1/20th of Minato has seen during his time alive. Why you even tried to use that as evidence it hilarious



Yeah - she hasnt seen those fodders whom Minato killed during his time. Cool.

And yeah - every shinobi in the world has tailed beast level chakra. Its a very common thing, Minato shouldnt be surprised at all that a shinobi in front of him has a chakra comparable to that of tailed beasts.


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## Trojan (Jul 8, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Edo Itachi is High-Kage, the same tier as Living Minato.



Edo Itachi is overrated as fuck. 

When get a reality check (and pretending that he does not have X thing when he was alive)

The only "new" things itachi showed as ET were



Which is nothing spectacular, nor is it strong enough to act like it's enough to make itachi "far" stronger than his living self.

Note: The filler showed the same jutsu for him ()

Yasaka Magatama

Not all that powerful either. People overrate it too much tho, and ignore than it's the same as Kunai with explosion tags, and try to make that as trolling. 

Izanami

Which does not even work for the vast majority of the characters. Bad to use it on 1 Vs 1, and hard to pull it off to begin with. 

All the other stuff is pretty much the same, and yet people act like him being an Edo with those 3 "new" moves is enough to get him several tiers above "healthy" itachi or whatever other term they use. :/


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Was stated by Jiraiya to be the PERFECT shinobi a man without equal,


Both of Jiraiya's statements refers to Minato's talent and potential, not strength. Minato was the most talented Shinobi that Jiraiya had ever seen with the greatest potential, not the strongest. 



> Minato was stated to be the biggest Genius ever produced by Konoha, yes this includes people like Itachi ( who 1 shots a Sannin multiple times) not counting Sasuke and Naruto of course.


He actually wasn't, but assuming he was again that has to do with potential and talent rather than directly strength.



> The Yondaime Raikage Ei felt that Minato could never be surpassed by anyone,


And who did Ei really know back then, who is placed above Minato?



> this includes Kirabi ( A Perfect Jin, capable of Bijudama)


It may or may not include a Younger-B, as we don't know when Ei began underestimating B.



> During the War between Iwagakure and the leaf, Iwa gave a FLEE ON SIGHT issue whenever any soldier sees Minato at all and that even trying to fight him would just be in vain


It's hardly surprising that normal infantry of Iwagakuru was told to flee on sight from someone like Minato. How many times in the 4th-War were the normal infantry told to take a back seat to more powerful characters? Fuck Tsunade basically told everyone, but Onoki to stay away from Mu.



> his is shown when 50 Iwa JOUNIN were casually wiped off the face of the earth in an instant.


We've seen so many shinobi in the war capable off or actually did fodderize more than 50 shinobi, I really don't see this as much hype anymore. 



> Onoki was so scared of Minato he felt he couldn't be beaten under any circumstance that even if his entire army of Ninja were there to just drop eveything and flee, that numbers mean nothing in front of Minato


Fanfiction.



> Minato Namikaze easily avoided V2 Ei's Shunshin a feat that MS Sasuke couldn't reproduce even with the Sharingan enhanced perception, a feat that took Naruto several power ups to replicate the feat, now this is Minato's Speed and reflexes without Hiraishin.


Does anyone doubt Minato's speed? The problem is speed is not the only thing needed.



> Pre-Rinnegan Obito one of the strongest in the Akatsuki aided by the KYUBBI the strongest Biju was Humiliated by Minato, Even with the advantage of full Knowledge and Minato having none Obito still got completely outsmarted, the feat of defeating the Kyubbi+ a strong Uchiha are feats shared by very few people, namely HASHIRAMA the strongest Hokage.


Obito lost because he was fighting the entire village at the same time as Minato. If he wasn't Minato would have been up against both Obito and Kyuubi, and thee only time he actually did have to fight those two at the same time Obito immediately grabbed him and he only escaped because Obito didn't warp him as quickly as he could, so chance are he would have been defeated rather easily.



> So my question is this: Where Does Base Minato Rank?


Base-Minato is stronger than characters like Itachi, Jiraiya, Mu, Gengetsu, and Sasori, but it isn't by some huge margin, they all are relatively close to him, especially Jiraiya in Sennin Modo. It's debatable who is strongest between Base-Minato, B, and Onoki [Stone Will Mode]. Characters like Nagato, Danzo [w/ Koto], and Tobirama [At his best] are stronger than him in Base.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

> You should also add that at the age of nine, Minato defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha under Prime Hiruzen's & the Sannin's guard and stole the Konoha's strongest weapon. Only Minato was able to stop these ninjas, as Prime Hiruzen could do nothing.



Where have you taken that from?


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Raikage Ei's Raiton was thicker. Minato, while being a sensor, wasnt shocked about young Ei's chakra levels, while Kirin was terrified about Raikage Ei's chakra levels. There is no proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra at that moment. And, finally, Raikage Ei has feats far above those of his younger counterpart.



so in short bla bla with no scans

why would minato be shocked about his chakra levels. Minato had seen bijuu before or at least knew of them 

Karin being terrified is hardly a measuring stick to be used. she fodder why wont a lot of chakra scare her

who has more chakra Juubito or A? why wasn't minato terrified ? or express shock?

he only ever said juudara got more sage chakra than juubito. again no fear just a remark 

so like I said bla bla....you got no scans

 the last bit made me laugh

yh older A who was in 2 fights would have more feats than someone in a skirmish 

how on earth does that mean older A is faster or stronger?

3rd kazekage got no feats am sure you wont try to claim konohamaru can take him on since konohamaru got feats.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jul 8, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Both of Jiraiya's statements refers to Minato's talent and potential, not strength. Minato was the most talented Shinobi that Jiraiya had ever seen with the greatest potential, not the strongest.



So if Minato reached his full potential he would be the strongest? Keep in mind he said this after seeing Itachi the only genius comparable to Minato other then Hashirama, who Jiraiya obviously wasn't around to see in action. 






> And who did Ei really know back then, who is placed above Minato?



Kirabi, Third Raikage, MS Sasuke, All other Gokage.



> It may or may not include a Younger-B, as we don't know when Ei began underestimating B.



Ei placed Bee pretty highly considering he let Bee train by himself without any protection, he must of assumed he could handle any threat that came his way.



> It's hardly surprising that normal infantry of Iwagakuru was told to flee on sight from someone like Minato. How many times in the 4th-War were the normal infantry told to take a back seat to more powerful characters? Fuck Tsunade basically told everyone, but Onoki to stay away from Mu.



Except the thing is we see what happens to non-fodder that don't follow the flee on sight orders, Minato took them to school fodder or not fooder, Like A + B, He played them like fiddles, thats no riddle, In fact he schooled them SEVERAL times during that war. Then there is the fact that Minato soloed the 3rd Great Ninja War being the only reason Konoha won the war.



> We've seen so many shinobi in the war capable off or actually did fodderize more than 50 shinobi, I really don't see this as much hype anymore.



Fodder > Third Raikage 

I think taking out fodder is a pretty good feat.




> Fanfiction.



How so? It's pretty clear Onoki Had to have feared Minato or else he wouldn't have his entire military force run from him on contact, I also didn't see Onoki in a rush to lead the charge against Minato.



> Does anyone doubt Minato's speed? The problem is speed is not the only thing needed.



True, but having a speed advantage is always nice, and being hyped as being the fastest out of all god-like speed is pretty good hype.



> Obito lost because he was fighting the entire village at the same time as Minato. If he wasn't Minato would have been up against both Obito and Kyuubi, and thee only time he actually did have to fight those two at the same time Obito immediately grabbed him and he only escaped because Obito didn't warp him as quickly as he could, so chance are he would have been defeated rather easily.



Now this is BS, The Kyubi did in fact fight the village obviously, But Obito 1 v 1 Minato no interference at all, and got schooled so bad, and the only reason Minato didn't instantly kill Obito to begin with was he had no knowledge on an extremely Hax ability, Obito also didn't expect Minato to cancel his Kyubi contract, which is apparently not something an ordinary ninja can do. Basically Minato >> Obito.



> Base-Minato is stronger than characters like Itachi, Jiraiya, Mu, Gengetsu, and Sasori, but it isn't by some huge margin, they all are relatively close to him, especially Jiraiya in Sennin Modo. It's debatable who is strongest between Base-Minato, B, and Onoki [Stone Will Mode]. Characters like Nagato, Danzo [w/ Koto], and Tobirama [At his best] are stronger than him in Base.



I think B trembling at the sound of Minato's name should tell you where they stand. For Danzo I assume you mean he'll just Koto him right away, and yeah that would probably work. Tobirama is pretty good I can atleast accept that.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so in short bla bla with no scans
> 
> why would minato be shocked about his chakra levels. Minato had seen bijuu before or at least knew of them
> 
> ...



He should have been surprised because only very few shinobi in history had tailed beast level chakra up to that moment.

Well, she was afraid for Sasuke and herself. But anyway, i highly doubt Minato would have been with a poker face after aknowledging Ei's tailed beast chakra levels, especially when he never faced anyone with that chakra level in battle.

There is no indication in manga that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra. You are basicly trying to use your own fantasy as a proof. That wont work, unless you can give me a proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra, thus proving that your fantasy is not a fantasy at all.

Maybe because he already knew whom he will be fighting? And maybe because there is nothing special about Juubi having such a level of chakra? 

Why there were no remarks when he faced Ei?

First, age didnt seem to affect him much. Second, he had a barbell at his cabinet, as i remember, so he trained. Third, his Raiton was thicker. Fourth, young Ei has no feats. He could be still improving his chakra and Raiton at that moment. Kinda young teenager who wants to reach his prime. 

That's a different situation. We are talking about kage-level shinobi, who are canonically kage-level, with a skill good enough to take Minato out. Konohomaru was just a kid, not a kage, thus one of the strongest shinobi in his village. You are trying to exaggerate here.


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## Icegaze (Jul 8, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He should have been surprised because only very few shinobi in history had tailed beast level chakra up to that moment.



hashirmaa and madara did. people minato had heard of. he had no reason to be surprised. 

he knew A was super fast. doesn't take a genius to know why he super fast



> Well, she was afraid for Sasuke and herself. But anyway, i highly doubt Minato would have been with a poker face after aknowledging Ei's tailed beast chakra levels, especially when he never faced anyone with that chakra level in battle


.

he had no reaction to juubito who as far as chakra is concerned is faaaar>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A 




> There is no indication in manga that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra. You are basicly trying to use your own fantasy as a proof. That wont work, unless you can give me a proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra, thus proving that your fantasy is not a fantasy at all.



lol says the guy with no scans suggesting what he claiming. A called that his fastest punch. not fastest at the moment punch. therefore it was....he didn't say oh btw I got faster now. wont that be worth mentioning 

kishi had no issues mentioning onoki bloody old onoki got faster, he had no issues mentioning that. why not mention A got faster, A you know the speed centred character




> Maybe because he already knew whom he will be fighting? And maybe because there is nothing special about Juubi having such a level of chakra?



he also had heard of A. therefore knew who he would be facing. 



> Why there were no remarks when he faced Ei?



because he simly wasn't impressed. cant blame him considering he had no difficulties with A



> First, age didnt seem to affect him much. Second, he had a barbell at his cabinet, as i remember, so he trained. Third, his Raiton was thicker. Fourth, young Ei has no feats. He could be still improving his chakra and Raiton at that moment. Kinda young teenager who wants to reach his prime.



to increase his physical strength yes. not a chakra enhanced speed based jutsu. being more muscular wont allow him to use more chakra for shunshin. 

thicker ration, that's panel squitting right there. feel free to prove thicker ration means faster movement 

no feats because he didn't fight that's fuckign dumb logic. young A would get hit by amaterasu he got no feats of avoiding 

that's ur dumb logic 

so I ask does he have feats of getting hit by it? 



> That's a different situation. We are talking about kage-level shinobi, who are canonically kage-level, with a skill good enough to take Minato out. Konohomaru was just a kid, not a kage, thus one of the strongest shinobi in his village. You are trying to exaggerate here.



again I need scans saying A got faster

if he can say so for onoki. why not mention it for A who is a speed based character. perhaps cuz there was no noticeable difference


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## StarWanderer (Jul 8, 2015)

> hashirmaa and madara did. people minato had heard of. he had no reason to be surprised.
> 
> he knew A was super fast. doesn't take a genius to know why he super fast



Minato was also super fast. Does he have tailed beast level chakra? No.

Minato has never faced anyone with tailed beast chakra level up to that point. If young Ei had tailed beast level chakra, Minato would have reacted somehow. Kishimoto would have shown that young Ei had those chakra levels. But he didnt. In fact, there is literally no proof that young Ei had tailed beast level chakra. That's your fantasy that he had tailed beast level chakra at that moment. Because nothing suggest that.



> he had no reaction to juubito who as far as chakra is concerned is faaaar>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>A



He knew what Juubito is. And he knew he was going up against ressurrected Madara Uchiha, a legendary shinobi. So thats why we cant see any response. 

And no proof of young Ei having a tailed beast level chakra. As usual.



> lol says the guy with no scans suggesting what he claiming. A called that his fastest punch. not fastest at the moment punch. therefore it was....he didn't say oh btw I got faster now. wont that be worth mentioning
> 
> kishi had no issues mentioning onoki bloody old onoki got faster, he had no issues mentioning that. why not mention A got faster, A you know the speed centred character



Why Kishi never mentioned that young Ei had a tailed beast level chakra? Why Kishi never gave any indication of that? Why Raikage Ei's Raiton was thicker? Why Minato had no response to Ei's chakra levels?

And by the way, there are lots of characters who improved, but that wasnt outright stated. One of them is Obito. Another one is Jiraya. Killer Bee. I can think of more examples of that, if you want.

And dont you think it is pretty much stupid to put young Ei, who is 17 years younger, at the same level as Raikage Ei?



> he also had heard of A. therefore knew who he would be facing.



He heard that Ei is fast. That's all.



> because he simly wasn't impressed. cant blame him considering he had no difficulties with A



A guy, who killed lots of fodders, never faced anyone with tailed beast level chakra, comes to battlefield, sees a shinobi, *a teenager*, about whom he knew only that he is son of The Third Raikage and that he is fast too, realises that he has tailed beast chakra levels, which no one he faced before had and... keeps poker face? Not even a sign of surprise? LOL.

And by the way, Minato had to rely on FTG in order to dodge Raikage, point-blank.



> to increase his physical strength yes. not a chakra enhanced speed based jutsu. being more muscular wont allow him to use more chakra for shunshin.
> 
> thicker ration, that's panel squitting right there. feel free to prove thicker ration means faster movement
> 
> ...



Raiton was thicker because there was more chakra in it. Shunshin depends on chakra. The more chakra you spend on Shunshin, the faster your Shunshin will be.

Young Bee reacted to young Ei's top speed and Minato with Hachibi's tentacle usage and reacted to Minato second time, after he has shown his superiority to young Ei. Adult Bee was dominated by V1 Raikage Ei.

It is clear as day Ei became faster.



> again I need scans saying A got faster
> 
> if he can say so for onoki. why not mention it for A who is a speed based character. perhaps cuz there was no noticeable difference



I already proved he became faster, without scans.

And by the way, do you agree that there were some non-Godlike shinobi who were faster than Minato?


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