# Downstreamers (Manifold series) & Time Lords (Doctor Who) vs Umineko-verse



## Əyin (Oct 6, 2013)

Pique my interest when I saw a certain thread. 

Scenario 1 : Downstreamers vs Umineko-verse

Scenario 2 : Time Lords vs Umineko-verse

Scenario 3 : Both of them gang up to take Umineko-verse


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

> Time Lords



Rassilon: Oh look, witches and magic
Rassilon: I don't like it. Get the fuck out of my universe


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

[youtube]e4OgYrlnrDQ[/youtube]

Soundtrack
Everyone know what will happens


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 6, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Christmas on a Rational Planet said:
			
		

> There was a city, buildings carved into gigantic tusks of ivory that sprouted from the ground and formed arches a mile high, great arcs laced with crystalline clouds. The streets were made of cobweb, glittering pathways spun by mechanical spiders, and between them hung enchanted gardens tended by men of stone. Down on the ground walked the skeletons of mammoths, their ribcages stuffed with steam-powered engines, scholars and philosophers riding on their backs.
> 
> Chris had seen enough in his travels to know that a great many unlikely things were possible. Aliens could look like pixies, bio-machines could be made to resemble dragons, cities could be built out of sound... but there were things in this place he couldn?t even name, things he had no experience of, that seemed at odds with even the most exotic of alien technologies. Things that were impossible. Yeah. Impossible. Things even the Doctor couldn?t have shown him.
> 
> ...






Except replace the Carnival Queen and her irrationality with the Uminekoverse.


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## Əyin (Oct 6, 2013)

Why some of the characters is listed as Multiversal? rip Onoki's head clean off


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

> Two other men sat at his side. One carried the tools of an engineer; the other’s position was less obvious.


Omega and the Other I suppose


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## willyvereb (Oct 6, 2013)

Əyin said:


> Why some of the characters is listed as Multiversal? rip Onoki's head clean off


Maybe because of this?


It's been a while so don't ask me for sources.
Asune and Bernkastel may explain it to you better.


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## Byrd (Oct 6, 2013)

Those cats that attack Battler all hit him with universal-level attacks which he took zero damage from..

Each one of those cats were at his level.


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

Which could possibly make her low-multiversal
Still not enough


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## willyvereb (Oct 6, 2013)

Doesn't Berkastel have an infinite number of cats, though?
The very least I remember there being billions of even more.
Also if it's related to those cats then I guess Will has a pretty nice feat involving them.


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## Byrd (Oct 6, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Doesn't Berkastel have an infinite number of cats, though?
> The very least I remember there being billions of even more.
> Also if it's related to those cats then I guess Will has a pretty nice feat involving them.



it was like quadrillion or some insane number like that and they were all stronger than Beatrice.

Interesting note, Featherine wrote the ending of Umineko as a reward to Battler and Ange


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## Qinglong (Oct 6, 2013)

I initially interpreted that scene as all the Cat spells together caused that effect

Here is the vid Boomy provided:

12:18 to 13:00

starts at 9:15 on the explanation of the cats and then battler tanking their attacks at 10:24


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## Byrd (Oct 6, 2013)

I guess it depends on the interpretation of the scene, although the cats individually should all be universal


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## Boomy (Oct 6, 2013)

Doesn't really make sense for this feat to be limited only to singular universe.

Overlords are~Bernkastel who was able to casually attack with Big Bangs/Crunches.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 6, 2013)

So multiversal Umineko is legit now? Coston must be squealing with joy. 

Though as mentioned, it's still not enough for the Time Lords at their peak.


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## Qinglong (Oct 6, 2013)

I just wanted to hear some more opinions on it (coston's reasoning was crap anyway since he was chasing speculation instead of an actual feat)

Each of the cats are in Bern's general level, but she's the strongest of them


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## Boomy (Oct 6, 2013)

Cosdong scaling is still crap - he listed Ange and Featherine as metaversal level which is bull.

And I think he doesn't even know that "+" in stats matters a lot.

^yeah, but they shouldn't be too much apart.


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## Byrd (Oct 6, 2013)

Metaversal is out there... nothing suggest that 

The library they are at is a multiverse at that considering it contains countless tales and stuff


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

Wasn't the books in the library added one by one?


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## Byrd (Oct 6, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Wasn't the books in the library added one by one?



Over time yeah, but it would still be a multiverse..


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 6, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> but it would still be a multiverse..


Obviously


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## Solar (Oct 6, 2013)

Bern has 10 quadrillion kitties since I saw it being mentioned.

I agree that the scene is probably up for interpretation, which is all I can say on the matter cause I'm sleepy. Boom-Mash-Boom seems to be holding it down though so I'll just stumble outside of this thread.


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## Boomy (Oct 6, 2013)

Get out


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## Solar (Oct 6, 2013)

You're lucky that you are la Boom.


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## Neruc (Oct 6, 2013)

Bern vs Boomy.

Would watch.


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## Boomy (Oct 6, 2013)

^Get out


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## teddy (Oct 7, 2013)

Can't comment on the downstreamers, but the time lords should be able to deal with the verse well enough considering what they've done with the time vortex. hell, iirc, they actually built the damn thing


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## Qinglong (Oct 7, 2013)

Don't think they're getting passed Downstreamers from what I'm hearing of them


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## Byrd (Oct 7, 2013)

? said:


> Can't comment on the downstreamers, but the time lords should be able to deal with the verse well enough considering what they've done with the time vortex. hell, iirc, they actually built the damn thing



How fast can they get?


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## teddy (Oct 7, 2013)

They're effectively outside of time with . and a single war tardis can withstand an assault from a swarm of chronovores _(apparently hundreds)_, one of which is able to create their own universe, eat timelines/dimensions, and all that good stuff


then there's the ultimate sanction and the fact that they devised a method to _survive_ it...


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 7, 2013)

Time Lords are outside of normal time and space due The Transduction Barrier
Nothing can enter inside it without permission...not even a TARDIS


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## Nevermind (Oct 7, 2013)

Mahesvara said:


> Doesn't really make sense for this feat to be limited only to singular universe.
> 
> Overlords are~Bernkastel who was able to casually attack with Big Bangs/Crunches.



Still doesn't make it multiversal though.


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## Byrd (Oct 7, 2013)

? said:


> They're effectively outside of time with . and a single war tardis can withstand an assault from a swarm of chronovores _(apparently hundreds)_, one of which is able to create their own universe, eat timelines/dimensions, and all that good stuff
> 
> 
> then there's the ultimate sanction and the fact that they devised a method to _survive_ it...



That would be a good match for the verse... those war tardis would probably have their hands full of overlords consider the sheer number of them... she should have atleast the same amount as Bern which was 10 quadrillion, all who are universal due to being Game Masters...

How do they fare going against conceptual beings cause stuff like Endless Magic and certain concepts are gonna be a bitch to bypass.

Literally Ange can revive people from being erase from existence..

I need to check if time runs in the Meta world of Unmineko...    

They gonna have to take out Creator Witch first and foremost cause if she is allow to get a hit in... She is gonna do some serious fuckery, like rewriting shit


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## TehChron (Oct 7, 2013)

Problem isnt that, Byrd, its that the Time Lords can get around it. Magic isnt just something they've handled at their level of existence.

It's something they've eradicated.


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## Nevermind (Oct 7, 2013)

Yeah, I don't expect that anyone thinks that Umineko had a chance here.


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## Byrd (Oct 7, 2013)

If they can do damage to conceptual beings then they are good but Ange ability is gonna be a damper... considering she can bring back people from non-existence...

But likely Ange and Featherine will be their biggest problem...



> It's something they've eradicated.



I would like to see how that goes against Ange Golden truth...


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 7, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> If they can do damage to conceptual beings then they are good but Ange ability is gonna be a damper... considering she can bring back people from non-existence



The primordial Time Lords kicked the Carvinal Queen right out of their multiverse. They can handle conceptual beings just fine.


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 7, 2013)

They can kill transcendental beings...


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## Byrd (Oct 7, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> The primordial Time Lords kicked the Carvinal Queen right out of their multiverse. They can handle conceptual beings just fine.



Thank you... whelp they lose then


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## Əyin (Oct 7, 2013)

What about the Downstreamers?


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

While we are on the topic, in Ep7 during one of her exchanges with Will, Bern says that she created the current gameboard/fragment by* "sewing" multiple fragments together.* Or something to that effect if I'm remembering right.
Don't have the VN anymore so if anyone can, do check.


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

So basically she merged multiple universes together to create the game?
Not bad.
Anyways, the said universe-level cats are IIRC under Bern's control.
There are at least quadrillion of them.
And there's Featherine who's a tier above her.
So Umineko verse having a multiversal+ entity doesn't sound too outlandish to me.


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## Əyin (Oct 8, 2013)

Əyin said:


> What about the Downstreamers?




Holy shit. Nevermind then It's an obvious curbstomp

This thread can be locked now


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## Nevermind (Oct 8, 2013)

Calamity said:


> While we are on the topic, in Ep7 during one of her exchanges with Will, Bern says that she created the current gameboard/fragment by* "sewing" multiple fragments together.* Or something to that effect if I'm remembering right.
> Don't have the VN anymore so if anyone can, do check.



Find that scan, and then you'd have an unambiguous multiversal feat.


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> So basically she merged multiple universes together to create the game?
> Not bad.
> Anyways, the said universe-level cats are IIRC under Bern's control.
> There are at least quadrillion of them.
> ...



IIRC those were the past game boards so she basically merged 6-7 fragments to create the new board. 

There's just one thing I want to get clarified before we go with that though.

 What exactly is a Fragment(Kakera)? I'm not entirely sold on the part that it is an entire universe.

1. In Ep5 during an exchange with Battler, Lambda defines "Fragments" or "Kakeras"  as "Fragments(Kakeras) are fragments of worlds..." which looks like she means to say they are pieces/parts of space-time from the universes. This is by Lambda no less, a Voyager witch who frequently travels between fragments and is Bern's equal.

2. Whenever they're referring to a universe, the translators have almost always used the word "universe" to refer to a universe like Beato and Maria's universe, Bern and Lambda's fight, those universal cats and all. Sometimes "world" is also used. 
However, whenever a "kakera" is mentioned by the characters it is always translated as Fragment (with a capital F) so there clearly seems to be a difference. 

3. I was told that there are other sources which explicitly mention that a Kakera is a universe so if anybody knows, please provide them.


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

Əyin said:


> Holy shit. Nevermind then It's an obvious curbstomp
> 
> This thread can be locked now


If that's all they actually sound kind of unimpressive to me.
To be honest.
At least by the scale of other multiversal entities.


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## Qinglong (Oct 8, 2013)

Calamity said:


> IIRC those were the past game boards so she basically merged 6-7 fragments to create the new board.
> 
> There's just one thing I want to get clarified before we go with that though.
> 
> ...



From what I understand the difference was noted after Will's slicing feat, since while impressive it was noted there was no "Game Master" or something to that effect, so the kakera he sliced didn't count as an actual universe


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## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

Yeah, with those current feats of the Downstreamers (if its all they did), they likely would get handled...

Ange magic can restore things that were erase from existence... 

A kakera is generally a universe created by a game master....


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## Nevermind (Oct 8, 2013)

So there's some ambiguity if a fragment is a universe?


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## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

I don't see how when Higurashi no Naku Koro ni takes place in a completely different fragment which had an unknown game master


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

Found it. This was that scene I mentioned from episode 5:
[youtube]bcs6hx2hYdQ&[/youtube]
Link removed
2:21 onwards.

The text:
"Battler: So I sensed it. These Fragments are probably like a crystallization of memories.
Lambda: They aren't memories. They are Fragments of worlds....well, I guess they might feel like memories to you."



Qinglong said:


> From what I understand the difference was noted after Will's slicing feat, since while impressive it was noted there was no "Game Master" or something to that effect, so the kakera he sliced didn't count as an actual universe



So the Fragments with a Game Master are universes?


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

Well, fragment can mean 3 things in the When They Cry series, IIRC:

1.) Parallel universe
2.) Information piece from other reality
3.) Part of the multiverse (the entire story of Umineko is supposed to set in a certain Kakera, same with Higurashi)


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## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

Why Kakera=universe is being doubted here? Bernkastel showed Lion's one Kakera where nothing happened, and then about millions or so where he's dead. It's pretty obvious it follows concepts of the alternate universes.


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

Well yeah, most of the time Kakera equated parallel universes.


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## Əyin (Oct 8, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Yeah, with those current feats of the Downstreamers (if its all they did), they likely would get handled...
> 
> Ange magic can restore things that were erase from existence...
> 
> A kakera is generally a universe created by a game master....



Uhhh..... I don't know about this but.... IIRC the Downstreamers is on megaverse level. I guess I'll just wait for EM to explain this.

They're also rivals for Doctor-Who as the most powerful sci-fi genre.


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

@Anti:I don't see where was that even implied for them.
You may want to post a few more links.

Megaverse is a fairly problematic thing.
It's often hard to decide if it's a megaverse or just multiple fragments of the same multiverse.


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## Əyin (Oct 8, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> I don't see where was that even implied for them.
> You may want to post a few more links.



EM might the one who knows the whole thing, since he's the one who introduced the Manifold. I just recalled some of the past threads.


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## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

Who made this profile actually?

Link removed

Since


> Holdings: At least one infinite multiverse, possibly a megaverse


Difference in size between infinite multiverse and megaverse is gigantic.


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## Əyin (Oct 8, 2013)

^ Zetta is the one who made it. With some revisions from EM (probably the source), Bioness, and Eldritch Sukima


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## Nevermind (Oct 8, 2013)

And this is where those wonderful questions of interpretation come into play.


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Well, fragment can mean 3 things in the When They Cry series, IIRC:
> 
> 1.) Parallel universe
> 2.) Information piece from other reality
> 3.) Part of the multiverse (the entire story of Umineko is supposed to set in a certain Kakera, same with Higurashi)



Depending on context you mean.
The last one could mean a lot of things as a part of the multiverse/worlds could mean a universe, a planet, countries or even just the island. Most of Umineko takes place within Rokkenjima Island and most of Higurashi takes place within Hinamizawa in which case it would be enough if the Fragment was at least the size of a country or say planet to cover all events which occur.

I think it would be best to treat this on a case to case basis instead of "Kakera=Universe".



Mahesvara said:


> Why Kakera=universe is being doubted here? Bernkastel showed Lion's one Kakera where nothing happened, and then about millions or so where he's dead. It's pretty obvious it follows concepts of the alternate universes.



1. Doesn't match with what Lambda claims. Note that here Lambda is defining what a Fragment is plus she is a Voyager witch so she knows her stuff and that of course takes more precedence than an assumption.

2. As I said before:


> Whenever they're referring to a universe, the translators have almost always used the word "universe" to refer to a universe like Beato and Maria's universe, Bern and Lambda's fight, those universal cats and all. Sometimes "world" is also used.
> However, whenever a "kakera" is mentioned by the characters it is always translated as Fragment (with a capital F) so there clearly seems to be a difference.



3. Back to Lambda's statement, she defines them as "fragments of worlds". Parts of worlds. My interpretation is these are just pieces of time-space or dimensions made from the existing worlds. The size of the "part" could be anything from a universe to just Rokkenjima. The best I've seen from the series in a fragment is mentions of other countries like Italy(where Beato is from) so that would put them at planetary at best. 
The entire events of Umineko and Higurashi mostly take place in Rokkenjima and Hinamizawa(i.e.Japan). So even assuming that a Fragment was planetary wouldn't introduce any inconsistencies in the story. These were just the playthings of the witches.

4. Willy just pointed out three ways in which this word was used in the series. That certainly makes it clear that it carries different meanings where its used hence we can't assume "Kakera=Universe". At least not for every single instance of the word.

5. I'm not sure but I do recall reading the worlds in Umineko were infinite in number. Bern searched through approximately some billions of fragments and picked the Fragment where Lion lived. In fact, it was stated that was the only fragment in which he was alive. 
Obviously, they don't match up.
There's also the shit about Kakera No.<insert that very very large number here> where Bern and Lambda were relaxing. Not sure but I'm assuming that is probably a parallel universe.

6. Coming to the point you raised, it works even if we assume the fragments are just parts of the worlds and not entire universes themselves. A dimension made from existing time-space which functions normally won't be that hard for a Voyager witch. At least I don't see any problems but feel free to point them out.

6., I did ask Asune this before and she said there were other sources mentioning that fragments are universes so its best if you would provide them.

7. Which brings us to the point of the gameboards: if someone can prove those fragments are actual universes, then Bern sewing them together would be a legit multiversal feat.

8. I did see this mentioned though so see if you could find the source:


> The definition of a witch is vague, but the general theory is that at the point when one gains power surpassing humans and is able to use it at will, that person is a witch.
> And the world, or possible kakera, in which that can be used freely is called their territory. Most witches cannot leave this territory, but those who can leave it freely and migrate through the kakera are called Voyagers.
> Worlds of different fates and circumstances are called kakera, and witches who are able to cross the ocean of endless kakera are called Voyagers


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## Əyin (Oct 8, 2013)

One question : How exactly big the content of one kakera in Umineko?


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## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

I currently don't have a game on my disc, so it would be problematic to find neccessary screens...two choices:

>play it again - I don't want to replay all this stuff again and I guess nobody wants
>pray that Berny and Asune remember when it was said


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

Generally the Kakera are parallel universes but the word was also used to refer to other things like different possibilities or memories/information content from other words.
Heck, IIRC the story of Higurashi was referred as a Kakera once.

@MohsinMan99: What the hell are you talking about?
No, there isn't such thing as parallel worlds limited to the size of island or countries.
Seriously, people should drop that shit assumption altogether in debates.
There are rare cases like the Zones in the Archie Sonic or certain fantasy verses but generally a self-contained reality IS an universe.

If Kakera refers to a location then it's almost certainly an universe itself.


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## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

Yeah the visual novel is indeed long... but I will try to gather up evidence..



> Heck, IIRC the story of Higurashi was referred as a Kakera once.



and then there is this


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## teddy (Oct 8, 2013)

Əyin said:


> Uhhh..... I don't know about this but.... IIRC the Downstreamers is on megaverse level. I guess I'll just wait for EM to explain this.
> 
> They're also rivals for Doctor-Who as the most powerful sci-fi genre.





willyvereb said:


> @Anti:I don't see where was that even implied for them.
> You may want to post a few more links.
> 
> Megaverse is a fairly problematic thing.
> It's often hard to decide if it's a megaverse or just multiple fragments of the same multiverse.





Mahesvara said:


> Who made this profile actually?
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



While we're on the subject, doctor who actually has a megaverse going by some passages from 'spiral scratch'


*Spoiler*: __ 





> Rummas agreed with the Doctor’s assessment. ‘Yes,’ he said aggitatedly. ‘I honestly think we’re facing a pan-multiversal rip. A scratch right through the grooves of the vortex spiral, causing jumps and gashes. And if something bleeds through from one multiverse to another...’





> Of course, the theory of parallel universes, multiverses and even an omniverse was nothing new. Theories had abounded ever since work into the origins of the Lampreys had begun thousands of years ago back home. Of course, it was a chicken-and-egg situation – did the Lampreys exist because of the multiverses or did the multiverses come into existence because the Time Lords accidentally created them whilst meddling with the Lampreys’ unique existence within the spirals of the vortex.





> As a result of his discoveries, the Lampreys gained unlimited access to all of time and space across the multiverses, reaching back to the creation, or forward to the destruction, of each universe, plus every interstitial point in between, wherein they wreaked havoc and unravelled reality whilst feeding on the chaos energies released as each divergent universe self-destructed.





> ‘We know she’s been searching for something. A lodestone to anchor herself, or themselves, at a fixed point so they can access the multiverses simultaneously rather than in the haphazard manner they do now. By having a central base, they don’t expend so much energy.’





> Rummas had crossed the room to join her. ‘It’s a sacrifice, across time and space. Across universes and multiverses. Across dimensions and –’






make of it what you will.

and of course do take note of the second quote that pertains to potential time lord shenanigans


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## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

Anyway, Mohsin's argument isn't really correct for another reason.

You're saying the term 'world' doesn't neccesairly means universe, I agree. But in this moment you excluded a world being the universe, which is incorrect. Especially since Meta-Word is really dimension of higher existencem and Meta-Players sees individual kakeras as something tiny. Lamba might as well could mean that 'multiverse=world', and part of it is universe aka Kakera.


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## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

This is the case where you would have to look at as worlds being interpret as universes or Alternate realities... 

One question is time an universal concept?

I do know in the Meta World, time doesn't exist or so it seems like


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> @MohsinMan99: What the hell are you talking about?
> No, there isn't such thing as parallel worlds limited to the size of island or countries.
> Seriously, people should drop that shit assumption altogether in debates.


It isn't about the limitation but more about that's the best we've seen from it and the island/country stuff was a low-end because "part of a multiverse" could mean lots of things. Of course, it may be bigger than an island or country and my argument doesn't intend to place an absolute limit on them but since we haven't seen that, why should it be assumed that it is?

I thought we had to prove parallel universes were universal sized first? 
When did that change? 



> There are rare cases like the Zones in the Archie Sonic or certain fantasy verses but generally a self-contained reality IS an universe.


I'm not sure why you are bringing this up but anyways. 
From what I remember of those debates, Zones were stated to be parallel worlds, some zones were universe sized while others weren't. Actually, I don't recall them being limited either. The AS side failed to prove that all those zones were universe sized which is why that was rejected. 

So you're saying that proving the size of the reality is no longer needed? 
If true, then that's not bad. I have a bunch of characters to introduce who'd be about multiversal but I couldn't actually find evidence for galaxies and shit which is what I was searching for.



> If Kakera refers to a location then it's almost certainly an universe itself.


So Soul Society, Makai, <insert other parallel world here> is another complete universe?

Notwithstanding the fact that the Kakera are defined as "part" of the worlds and that they could just as easily vary in size from each other, we are to treat them all as the same size? Or do you mean using "universe sized" as a low end for a Kakera?




Mahesvara said:


> Anyway, Mohsin's argument isn't really correct for another reason.


Who's that again,  Boomy? 



> You're saying the term 'world' doesn't neccesairly means universe, I agree.


There's a lot more I said which you glossed over. 



> But in this moment you excluded a world being the universe, which is incorrect.


I think you should really read my reply once again. I said nothing of the sort. In fact I did say that the word "world" is also used to refer to the universe and I also said that when they are referring to a universe, they use the word "universe" and nothing less.
Fragments of course are different and are mentioned separately.

However, the problem is the "part of the worlds" bit which apparently is the only definition we have from the series for Fragments. And here, Fragments aren't stated to be entire worlds, just a part of it. And that "part" bit could of course be interpreted as lots of things.




> Especially since Meta-Word is really dimension of higher existence and Meta-Players sees individual kakeras as something tiny.


Which does not say anything about their actual size.



> Lamba might as well could mean that 'multiverse=world', and part of it is universe aka Kakera.



In which case I'd ask why are you stopping the train at just "universe" though? A "part" could also be could be a galaxy, a star, a planet, an island, etc.
Going with the low end, it would be either a country or a planet. I haven't really seen any indication of galaxies or stuff from fragments either.




Byrdman said:


> This is the case where you would have to look at as worlds being interpret as universes or Alternate realities...
> One question is time an universal concept?
> I do know in the Meta World, time doesn't exist or so it seems like


If by Meta-World you mean the boardgame world/tea-party world with that bluish background or whatever, then time does exist there. I'm pretty sure that either Lambda/Bern stopped it once. 
And it is pretty clear time passes there as well what with Battler gradually learning the rules of the game and stuff from Beato and other stuff.

IIRC, Featherine also stopped time when she was taking care of Lambda.

-----------------------------

tl;dr .*Prove that an individual fragment is a complete universe.With scans of course. And yes, something that is clear and non-ambiguous.*

This would also make Bern multiversal BTW. 

Unless everyone is okay with the assumption that a self-contained reality should be treated as a universe and evidence for size isn't needed, then I think this is a must.


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## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

You don't appear to have an understanding what "parallel universe" means.
What you are referring to are dimensions.
The classical kind.
Artificial with no connection to our world.
Parallel universe is like the complete opposite of that.


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## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

The concept of time there is completely different (if it exist in the first place) from our own due to their indication that someone like Battler who is a mere human being able to play the board game forever.. just because some one learns something doesn't indicate time is moving there... while its highly unlikely they are in a time stop.. it could be that time simply isn't moving, which is why a game could go on forever 

Also Featherine stop the plot and rewrote it... thats why everything stop

but I ask again is time an universal concept
.


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## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> You don't appear to have an understanding what "parallel universe" means.
> What you are referring to are dimensions. The classical kind.


Do explain then. The whole point of this talk is clarification of the Fragments part anyway.
My understanding is that a PU is a separate reality with its own time-space which exists apart from our own and which may or may not have similarities to our own.
Dimension as used in fiction refers to a separate set of time-space "usually" smaller than our universe(i.e. pocket dimension). The word dimension is also used to refer to universes/parallel worlds/planes of existence and they are sometimes used interchangeably from what I've seen. 



> Artificial with no connection to our world. Parallel universe is like the complete opposite of that


What sort of "connection" do you mean here?
Do you mean similarities to our world like physical laws (or) the ability to access it?

And is it not necessary to prove the size of a parallel world/reality/universe/whatever? 



Byrdman said:


> The concept of time there is completely different (if it exist in the first place) from our own due to their indication that someone like Battler who is a mere human being able to play the board game forever..


Which is easily attributable to the witches allowing him to live or granting some form of immortality, especially Beatrice. 
Mind giving some other examples?



> just because some one learns something doesn't indicate time is moving there... while its highly unlikely they are in a time stop.. it could be that time simply isn't moving, which is why a game could go on forever


Or it could just as easily be having its own flow of time-space separate from the gameboard world.

Really now, the entire game went in a certain sequence of events with the characters learning various things, improving their skills, figuring out answers to riddles(sometimes even answering at a later point when they weren't ready with their replies). There were multiple games as well. Are you claiming that this all happened in a single instant? 
There's also the part where Featherine's memory device was damaged in the past and her appearance and personality had changed which is stated just before Lambda fights. Featherine.
Again, there was a mention of time for the metaworld existing in that fight. I'd probably be able to find a hell lot by playing the game again but I think this should be enough.

Clearly time is flowing in that Metaworld or whatever you call it. Probably not exactly like in our world but it is flowing.



> Also Featherine stop the plot and rewrote it... thats why everything stop


She didn't rewrite the entire plot though, just her fight against Lambda (if that could be called a "fight").



> but I ask again is time an universal concept
> .


What are you getting here at exactly?


----------



## teddy (Oct 8, 2013)

What's this talk even about again?


----------



## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

Calamity said:


> -snip-


So I won this debate?


----------



## TehChron (Oct 8, 2013)

Calamity, quit being retarded.

Theres nothing in Umineko suggesting that the Kakera are limited to Rokjenjima.

There are detailed circumstances and a noted variety of potential future outcomes in worlds that proceed after the passing of the Ushiromiyas.

That alone eliminates the closed nature required for your argument. Its also an established part of the When They Cry setting from back in Higurashi, where those terms were introduced.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 8, 2013)

Mahesvara said:


> So I won this debate?


----------



## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

This's the moment when you should use your EX++ noble Phantasm, Locking Hando, and close this thread willy


----------



## Solar (Oct 8, 2013)

Calamity said:


> tl;dr .*Prove that an individual fragment is a complete universe.With scans of course. And yes, something that is clear and non-ambiguous.*



Is this good enough?


----------



## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

I knew Berny won't disappoint us :33


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



you should do it sooner though
















Multiversal Umineko characters: legit.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 8, 2013)

Still loses :33
But low multiversal Witches is good


----------



## Boomy (Oct 8, 2013)

And all thanks to me.  

And Berny, the rest can go eat shit.

Douchebagging at the end of day - good night everyone.


----------



## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

Guess that proves the point...


----------



## Calamity (Oct 8, 2013)

Bernkastel said:


> Is this good enough?



First of all, thanks for actually complying with my request and providing evidence.

Yeah, these seem alright. (I've actually wanted those to use as evidence for another thread at a certain place. )
While not really necessary, I'd still like to know if you are aware of any other sources describing the Kakeras and if possible, could you post them?
The more, the better.

Also, can you post that scan of where Bern mentions she combined/sewed up those earlier fragments?


----------



## Solar (Oct 8, 2013)

About some other stuff I read:

1) No, I couldn't find the interview. I didn't spend a whole lot of time looking for them, but I went through five or six of them before quitting since these interviews are all over the place.

2) There are 2,500,000 fragments that are related to Umineko in the Sea. It's actually gives an exact number but I forgot it. I know it's in the 2,500,000 range though but I deleted the number.

3) There was no mention of a fragment needing a Game Master to be considered a universe after Will slashes a fragment. Looked through the Episode 7 tea parties and I couldn't find any mention of it other than Bernkastel complaining that she hadn't done any real mastering in ???. 

@ Moshi Moshi: I'll start looking for the sewing feat mentioned earlier and see if it's there or not.

From the interviews I read, I haven't found much regarding the fragments themselves. Most just focus on the story itself.


----------



## Nevermind (Oct 8, 2013)

Yeah, we really need the scan of that feat.

Wouldn't this scale to Bern and Lambda too?


----------



## Byrd (Oct 8, 2013)

Yeah it should be considering Lambda is her equal and was also a Game Master..

Although Featherine seems to do all the prep they do casually for the game boards.

Edit: just watch the scene where it mentions 2,578,917 worlds,


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (Oct 8, 2013)

>Fragments
>limited to Rokkenijima

lel

Did people completely forget Ange and her future? The one where Eva was the last one standing? Or showing events during EP when it was OFF the island?

Cuz this is one of those situations where people going into something blind get stuff skewed if you never read the series and what not.



> 3) There was no mention of a fragment needing a Game Master to be considered a universe after Will slashes a fragment. Looked through the Episode 7 tea parties and I couldn't find any mention of it other than Bernkastel complaining that she hadn't done any real mastering in ???.



Yeah, Fragments don't need Game Masters. Game Masters only matter for the games themselves. They're using Fragments of their choosing and have events play out and manipulate them.


----------



## Solar (Oct 8, 2013)

This is the feat you're referring to, I think:


----------



## Calamity (Oct 9, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> >Fragments
> >limited to Rokkenijima
> lel
> Did people completely forget Ange and her future? The one where Eva was the last one standing? Or showing events during EP when it was OFF the island?
> Cuz this is one of those situations where people going into something blind get stuff skewed if you never read the series and what not



And this seems to be one of the situations where you seem to have simply lost the ability to use your reading and comprehension skills. 
What I said was this:



> Most of Umineko takes place within Rokkenjima Island and most of Higurashi takes place within Hinamizawa in which case it would be enough if the Fragment was at least the size of a country or say planet to cover all events which occur.





> The size of the "part" could be anything from a universe to just Rokkenjima. The best I've seen from the series in a fragment is mentions of other countries like Italy(where Beato is from) so that would put them at planetary at best.


I hope you can read. Notice how I did take that shit into account from the start and limited it to planetary. Then again, I  didn't place an absolute limit but rather what we've seen from it. It is of course possible to be much larger.

In any case, why does that even matter now? We've already moved ahead thanks to Bern.



Bernkastel said:


> This is the feat you're referring to, I think:



Yes, exactly. 
Though I think Bern also mentions something to this effect later. 
And I think she mentions them being the past gameboards or something similar.


----------



## Coston (Oct 9, 2013)

Just how outdated you guys are? 

And when I first mentioned Multiversal Umineko, you guys just laugh at that.

Now... look at this... I realized one thing...

You guys are fucking jokes.

Also, the Kakeras merging part was done by Bern through using endless of Kakeras.

Yup, Bern just moved an infinite multiverse casually with ease.


----------



## teddy (Oct 9, 2013)

Quit your crying


----------



## Əyin (Oct 9, 2013)

Coston said:


> Just how outdated you guys are?
> 
> And when I first mentioned Multiversal Umineko, you guys just laugh at that.
> 
> ...





Still lose to the Time Lords and Downstreamers.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 9, 2013)

Time Lords, yes.
Downstreamers are actually on the side of being beaten here.
Even without Coston's barely cognible rant.


----------



## Boomy (Oct 9, 2013)

Cosdong made my day


----------



## Əyin (Oct 9, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Time Lords, yes.
> Downstreamers are actually on the side of being beaten here.
> Even without Coston's barely cognible rant.



Then why they stalemate against Time Lords in this thread?


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 9, 2013)

How should I know?
And why do you even using this ABC logic here?
If you don't agree with the results then explain:
How the Downstreamers are supposed to win here?


----------



## Qinglong (Oct 9, 2013)

Coston said:


> Just how outdated you guys are?
> 
> And when I first mentioned Multiversal Umineko, you guys just laugh at that.
> 
> ...




Link removed

Mind proving that Metaverse scale reality warping part?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 9, 2013)

Coston said:


> Just how outdated you guys are?
> 
> And when I first mentioned Multiversal Umineko, you guys just laugh at that.
> 
> ...




[youtube]unuadNjSbRw[/youtube]

There's no reason to be upset. Witches are low-multiversal now. :33


----------



## Boomy (Oct 9, 2013)

This guy is pathetic, how can he say there's infinite amount of kakeras when:


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 9, 2013)

Well, actually that doesn't prove there are "only" 2578917 Kakeras.
Not even the limit of the Umineko portion of the verse.
Just that Bernkastel had to search that many until found Lion.

Still, that doesn't confirm a thing about Coston's claim.


----------



## Byrd (Oct 9, 2013)

I reread the scene yesterday... I think it was talking about all the kakeras of Unimeko...

But that's just for Unimeko... When they cry series has infinite kakeras in which Bern and Lambda constantly travel to... Bern travels to find tales so that Featherine won't be bored 


They were all the kakeras involving Beatrice and all of them ended with her dying except for one she supposedly wish for which happen to be Lion one but Bern trolled her and had it to where Kyrie was gonna kill Lion.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 9, 2013)

Well yeah, there's only a single Kakera which had Beatrice survive.
But just because Bern searched 2.5 million Kakeras it doesn't mean there are only that many.

Allow me to show you with an example.
There's an imaginary bag containing 99 black marbles and a single white marble.
By randomly pulling marbles one by one you managed to get a white marble by the tenth pull.
Does it mean there had been only 10 marbles total?
Of course not.

Conversely if we don't know how many marbles the imaginary bag had only that you managed to pull the only white marble by the 10th, it doesn't mean there had been only 10 marbles in the bag.
But likely more.
So searching 2578917 worlds doesn't mean there had been only that many Kakeras in Umineko.
Only that Bernkastel found Lion by the 2578917th attempt.
So there are at least that many worlds.
But it certainly isn't an absolute limit.


----------



## Boomy (Oct 9, 2013)

Except she was searching through all of them and then she changed them so Lion will die in every Kakera.


----------



## Byrd (Oct 9, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VjvHUE7tC_E[/YOUTUBE]

Here is the scene... you probably can better understand it than I did

Starts at 5:00 and ends somewhere around 17:00 min mark


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 9, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Link removed
> 
> Mind proving that Metaverse scale reality warping part?





> Powers and Abilities: Metaversal scale reality warping





> Range: Multiversal+


.....
This make perfect sense


----------



## Byrd (Oct 9, 2013)

Depending if there is an actual higher plane of existence than the City of Books, Unimeko may be a metaverse.. if what willy is saying about all of that being in one kakera


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 9, 2013)

Byrd
Higher planes of existence do not (generally) equal collection of multiverses (or whatever)
Unless Metaverse (or Megaverse)  have another meaning in battledome perspective


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Oct 9, 2013)

? said:


> What's this talk even about again?



I don't know, but it's clear Uminekoverse loses pretty badly


----------



## Byrd (Oct 9, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Byrd
> Higher planes of existence do not (generally) equal collection of multiverses (or whatever)
> Unless Metaverse (or Megaverse)  have another meaning in battledome perspective



Depends, Kakeras are universes, if the City of books, which is a multiverse itself is just one Kakera in a whole that is in the Sea of Fragments then it would be a Megaverse...

I'm just sayin its a possibility, not saying its the case


----------



## Solar (Oct 9, 2013)

Even more fun, depending on you judge a scene/feat, Eva-Beatrice could be:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Universal in range, multiversal (tens of thousands at the least) in range, or low-metaversal (?) in range and have
*Spoiler*: __ 



multiversal reality warping in the tens of thousands or some weird thing above that (aborted low-metaversal?)
*Spoiler*: __ 



But you'd have to show that the fragments aren't, as Bill put it, "2.) Information piece from other reality" or that it doesn't make a difference
*Spoiler*: __ 



but no one is going to do that since you'd have to re-read EP 1, 2, 3, 8 (and possibly others Episodes) and have a large discussion about that will probably lead nowhere
*Spoiler*: __ 



and I'm only mentioning this to
*Spoiler*: __ 



tease Coston.
*Spoiler*: __ 



Hi, Coston.
*Spoiler*: __ 



It's the scene in EP8 where the theory goats attack, but see: "2.) Information piece from other reality"
*Spoiler*: __ 



This thread is done though so I'll just go away now


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 9, 2013)

Is there any evidence to suggest that the city of the books is just one Kakera?



Bernkastel said:


> Even more fun, depending on you judge a scene/feat, Eva-Beatrice could be:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


be objective, lolberny


----------



## Byrd (Oct 9, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Is there any evidence to suggest that the city of the books is just one Kakera?
> 
> 
> 
> lolberny



possibly, if it is its somewhere in Ep5-8...


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 9, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> possibly, if it is its *somewhere in Ep5-8*...






I will try find it...someday


----------



## Qinglong (Oct 9, 2013)

Good luck

You'll probably find it before I do


----------



## Əyin (Oct 9, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> How should I know?
> And why do you even using this ABC logic here?
> If you don't agree with the results then explain:
> How the Downstreamers are supposed to win here?



Their feats could be found here :
Large building
For example :  





> The portals can project a field around them that can alter the laws of physics- it's powerful enough to shield a normal human in a spacesuit (made with earth technology from the mid - 21st century, not very advanced) from thousands of Big Bangs and Big Crunches per second.



I need to read the books btw. I already got it but don't have much time to read it.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 10, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> .....
> This make perfect sense



Mega/metaversal dc was a stupid idea in the first place, since a countably infinite number of countably infinite multiverses is the same size a a single countably infinite multiverse.


----------



## Boomy (Oct 10, 2013)

Nevermind it's confusing as fuck. We should just use multiverse and that's it.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

Not sure about the Downstreamers, but everyone seems to be overhyping the Timelords here as the time lords are highly vunerable to even street level obstacles being hurt by the likes of bullets & falls. Getting hit by these things would cause the Timelord to die and regenerate your standard timelord has 12 regenerations. Not to mention that most timelords need their technology to change time, when the witches can create mountains of cake & botomless oceans of jelly out of nothing and bring the dead back to life just to kill them a second time. The only timelord I see posing a threat is Omega.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Not sure about the Downstreamers, but everyone seems to be *overhyping the Timelords* here as the time lords are highly vunerable to even street level obstacles being hurt by the likes of bullets & falls. Getting hit by these things would cause the Timelord to die and regenerate your standard timelord has 12 regenerations. Not to mention that most timelords *need their technology *to change time, when the witches can create mountains of cake & botomless oceans of jelly out of nothing and bring the dead back to life just to kill them a second time. *The only timelord I see posing a threat is Omega.*


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 12, 2013)

Doctor prevents your favorite fiction from being made


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

Are you going to actually back up your statement, or just use gifs?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Oct 12, 2013)

What statement?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> What statement?



Edit: oh wait...I misunderstood what you meant 



TTGL said:


> Are you going to actually back up your statement, or just use gifs?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Not sure about the Downstreamers, but everyone seems to be overhyping the Timelords here as the time lords are highly vunerable to even street level obstacles being hurt by the likes of bullets & falls. Getting hit by these things would cause the Timelord to die and regenerate your standard timelord has 12 regenerations. Not to mention that most timelords need their technology to change time, when the witches can create mountains of cake & botomless oceans of jelly out of nothing and bring the dead back to life just to kill them a second time. The only timelord I see posing a threat is Omega.



None of this is relevant, since the Time Lords aren't going to be walking around somewhere without their technology.


----------



## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Not sure about the Downstreamers, but everyone seems to be overhyping the Timelords here as the time lords are highly vunerable to even street level obstacles being hurt by the likes of bullets & falls. Getting hit by these things would cause the Timelord to die and regenerate your standard timelord has 12 regenerations. Not to mention that most timelords need their technology to change time, when the witches can create mountains of cake & botomless oceans of jelly out of nothing and bring the dead back to life just to kill them a second time. The only timelord I see posing a threat is Omega.



This is the time lord civilisation, not a bunch of individual time lords. They can use their tech however they please, and they have pleanty of time to do so, because you can't just pop over to gallifrey to the day just if you feel like it.


----------



## willyvereb (Oct 12, 2013)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> This is the time lord civilisation, not a  bunch of individual time lords. They can use their tech however they  please, and they have pleanty of time to do so, because you can't just  pop over to gallifrey to the day just if you feel like it.


Indeed.
Sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

On the other hand I haven't watched many Doctor Who episodes so I wonder what makes the Time Lords so impossible to reach?
This might be important for future debates.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

Hell, the Time Lords exterminated an entire species of reality warpers, a single one of which could create its own universe.

And the Carnival Queen was powerless to escape her prison without outside assistance, which doesn't bode well for the considerably weaker Umineko witches.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 







Even with all their technology, the Timelords went extinct in the Time War, which shouldn't have been a problem to them if they always have their technology with them. Why couldn't any of the Time Lords with their technology stop a single Timelord? Escepcially when the Doctor had been described in the older books as not being as strong as they are, and his TARDIS is more defunct. Another old books says that The Master had been sentenced to a fate worse than the Doctors exile, and if he where caught he would be removed from ever existing. Their entire Civilization couldn't even find one of their individuals. Timelords have shown to need to Regenerate from mere street level attacks (The Master was killed by a bullet fired from an ordinary gun by an ordinary human). Just two witches can create entire universes between them during their fight. The Timelord Civilization wiped out the Chronovores, but one witch can _create_ a race of Universal cats, or goat servants who eat their prey to oblivion (nothing is left). The witches can do what the timelords need machines to do by themselves, and are more durable & faster. Just one Time Lord was enough to destroy Gallifrey and wipe it from history. That is no problem for a witch.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Just one Time Lord was enough to destroy Gallifrey and wipe it from history.



Which still isn't relevant since the Time Lords aren't distracted and weakened by a multiversal Time War in this match.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

In an entire race of Time Lords, surely just one of billions would be able to find the Doctor, especially with their technology. And why couldn't any of them find The Master when no Time War was going on?


----------



## DarkTorrent (Oct 12, 2013)

Didn't they fight the Time Wars against Daleks - another universal/multiversal civilization with comparable (or close to it) level of technology?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> In an entire race of Time Lords, surely just one of billions would be able to find the Doctor, especially with their technology.



Not if those billions and their technology were occupied by the much more immediate problem of the Daleks trying to wipe them out.



> And why couldn't any of them find The Master when no Time War was going on?



Who knows? The Master was pretty good at hiding, and the Time Lords weren't very competent in the old series.



DarkTorrent said:


> Didn't they fight the Time Wars against Daleks - another universal/multiversal civilization with comparable (or close to it) level of technology?



If anything, the Daleks might have been slightly more advanced.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

Someone about to rewrite history with them not in it is pretty immediate. Maybe they could've spared just one or two time lords for such a task out of the billions that they had?


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Someone about to rewrite history with them not in it is pretty immediate. Maybe they could've spared just one or two time lords for such a task out of the billions that they had?



They didn't know his intentions until the last day of the war. By then it may have been too late to do anything with the resources available to them.

Either way, this tangent is pointless. The details of how the Doctor ended the war are mostly unknown, and the situation is not the same as it is for the witches in this match.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

The Time Lords (in a time of peace) couldn't track down the great their greatest mass murderer The Master, who was basically free to terrorise the Universe, and one witch has time/space warping and can create a race of beings of which each is universal.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Oct 12, 2013)

I really don't see how their inability to find both the Doctor and the Master matters here. It doesn't change the fact that Time Lords have technology that surpasses the Umineko witches abilities. 

Or at least that is what I'm getting from this thread.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> The Time Lords (in a time of peace) couldn't track down the great their greatest mass murderer The Master, who was basically free to terrorise the Universe, and one witch has time/space warping and can create a race of beings of which each is universal.



Universal beings are a joke to the Time Lords at their peak. They were capable of keeping the Carnival Queen locked up indefinitely.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

DarkTorrent said:


> I really don't see how their inability to find both the Doctor and the Master matters here. It doesn't change the fact that Time Lords have technology that surpasses the Umineko witches abilities.
> 
> Or at least that is what I'm getting from this thread.



The witches can do everything their technology can, and then some more (creating a race of Universe Sestroying cats, breaking the 4th wall, reality warping). They don't need machines to do it either.


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> Universal beings are a joke to the Time Lords at their peak. They were capable of keeping the Carnival Queen locked up indefinitely.



Mind sharing some infomation about the Carnival Queen? I looked her up and she doesn't seem to have much impressive about her.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> The witches can do everything their technology can, and then some more (creating a race of Universe Sestroying cats, breaking the 4th wall, reality warping).



That's not what I'm getting from this thread.



> They don't need machines to do it either.



And this matters why?


----------



## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

The witches have been moved up to mutiversal


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Christmas on a the Rational Planet said:
			
		

> There was a city, buildings carved into gigantic tusks of ivory that sprouted from the ground and formed arches a mile high, great arcs laced with crystalline clouds. The streets were made of cobweb, glittering pathways spun by mechanical spiders, and between them hung enchanted gardens tended by men of stone. Down on the ground walked the skeletons of mammoths, their ribcages stuffed with steam-powered engines, scholars and philosophers riding on their backs.
> 
> Chris had seen enough in his travels to know that a great many unlikely things were possible. Aliens could look like pixies, bio-machines could be made to resemble dragons, cities could be built out of sound... but there were things in this place he couldn’t even name, things he had no experience of, that seemed at odds with even the most exotic of alien technologies. Things that were impossible. Yeah. Impossible. Things even the Doctor couldn’t have shown him.
> 
> ...





Reposting what Sukima posted in the first page
 TTGL apparently ignored it though


----------



## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

I think what I gotten is

Time Lords (multiversal) > Umineko > Downstreamers


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

Hell
Time Lords are the ones who made "proper" time travel (i.e using the Time Vortex) possible because they've created the shit in first place


----------



## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Hell
> Time Lords are the ones who made "proper" time travel (i.e using the Time Vortex) possible because they've created the shit in first place



Just to note, using time against these witches is pretty much useless... they would have to go for their higher feats


----------



## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

She showed someone the past (her creation) before she was locked up by the Watchmakers (she's made of their cast out illogic). That's what I got from it.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Just to note, using time against these witches is pretty much useless... they would have to go for their higher feats


Never said time travel is useful here
I only saying the time lords created an multiversal structure


----------



## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Never said time travel is useful here
> I only saying the time lords created an multiversal structure



Oh gotcha... I assume they did it casually...

Its probably a better feat than Bern taking many fragments (universes) to make her gameboard


----------



## DarkTorrent (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:
			
		

> She showed someone the past (her creation) before she was locked up by the Watchmakers (she's made of their cast out illogic). That's what I got from it.



You missed the part where she talks about prime Time Lords reality warping their multiverse essentially creating the Doctor Who verse as it is now then.



			
				Byrd said:
			
		

> Time Lords (multiversal) > Umineko > Downstreamers



I don't think there is really a consensus about who is stronger - the Downstreamers or the Time Lords, but the Dowstreamers are a multiversal civilization as well. In fact they made their own universe into a multiverse.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Oh gotcha... I assume they did it casually...
> 
> Its probably a better feat than Bern taking many fragments (universes) to make her gameboard


Is a better feat
Doctor Who multiverse is infinite


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## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

It never says anything about a multiverse, infact it refers to the Universe as a _singular_ several times.


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## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Is a better feat
> Doctor Who multiverse is infinite



Technically the same is for Umineko.

City of Books is just one place that holds countless universes.. then there is the Sea of Fragments.

Featherine is the ruler of City of Books and those are all her tales she created


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## Louis Cyphre (Oct 12, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Technically the same is for Umineko.


I know
But Berny never manipulated all of them



> City of Books is just one place that holds countless universes.. then there is the Sea of Fragments.
> 
> Featherine is the ruler of City of Books and those are all her tales she created


Countless =/= Infinite
And the tales were added one by one


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Mind sharing some infomation about the Carnival Queen? I looked her up and she doesn't seem to have much impressive about her.



The Carnival Queen is the abstract embodiment of the irrationality the Time Lords removed from reality. If set free she's capable of returning reality to its original state, which is basically a nicer version of the Warp from Warhammer 40k.

Will go into more detail later if needed.


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## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> I know
> But Berny never manipulated all of them
> 
> 
> ...



Berny manipulated a small amount... I think


Featherine however has all the game masters of those tales under her control... each one of them is multiversal, being that they are equal to Berny.

But I still give it to the Time Lords


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## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

I still don't see how she supposed to be a threat; even a weaker witch is capable of messing with the Universe whenever she (or he) feels like it. By the way, the Time Lords rarely do anything on a multiversial scale (if ever). Almost all the stories are set in the one Universe, with the occassional parrallel/pocket universe visited, oor an enemy from another universe attacking, or when Davros tried to destroy reality.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL, you clearly haven't watched rise of the cybermen (among other episodes, but rise is the nu who episode that explores it). Also, it is possible every type 40 tardis is infinitely multiversal because according to journey, even if you think of the biggest spaceship you can, the tardis is bigger because the tardis is infinite, and the whole thing is capable of exploding in one go.

I think one problem with the time lords is they may not have experience with fast characters, since the vast majority of characters in docotr who are slower than peak human, and I haven't really seen this change much even when you get to people like fenric. They still win here but it's worth considering.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> I still don't see how she supposed to be a threat; even a weaker witch is capable of messing with the Universe whenever she (or he) feels like it.



Even a tiny fraction of the Carnival Queen's power leaking from her prison warped reality on a multiversal scale.

I'll post quotes and a more thorough explanation when I get home.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 12, 2013)

hmm

Carnival Queen (Dr Who) vs Crimson Queen (CK's mother, Dark Tower) ?


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## Galo de Lion (Oct 12, 2013)

The paragraph pacifically stated she was Universal, and the Watchmakers wanted to rationalise the Universe and cast ehr out of it. Multiverse is mentioned nowhere (infact the multiverse is mentioned rarely in Doctor who, save for Chronovores, Omega, Bad Wolf, Davros's Doom Weapon, the TARDIS Eaters pocket dimension are some notable examples).


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## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL it doesn't matter how often they bring up the multiverse or how often they are shown to destroy/create/manipulate the multiverse, the fact of the matter is that it exists and they can control/destroy/create it.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 12, 2013)

Is no-one going to address my point on tardises? According to journey to the centre of the tardis pretty much all of them are capable of infinite multiversal power. Following this the time lords should win even if doctor who doesn't have a multiverse.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 12, 2013)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Also, it is possible every type 40 tardis is infinitely multiversal because according to journey, *even if you think of the biggest spaceship you can*, the tardis is bigger because the tardis is infinite, and the whole thing is capable of exploding in one go.


something the size of a ~Dyson Sphere is the biggest spaceship I can think of


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## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

I searched Dyson Sphere, and there are multiple variants, with the most common being a structure that surrounds a star. Which one are you referring to? Context, people, context.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 12, 2013)

You did get the "because the tardis is infinite" bit right?


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## willyvereb (Oct 12, 2013)

And?
That just means they use spatial manipulation.
Just because something has infinite size doesn't mean it's multiversal.
The multiverse isn't something you can usually measure.
It's a concept.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 12, 2013)

It has infinite size _and it can self destruct_ is the important bit. And each room in the tardis basically is a mini-universe, so if there is an infinite number of them of course it is multiversal, even if you ignore the fact that all countably infinite energies are the same.


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## willyvereb (Oct 12, 2013)

What do you mean by "mini-universes"?
And if they are "mini" then with the same reasoning we can at best only call the TARDIS a "mini-multiverse".


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## Byrd (Oct 12, 2013)

What if Ange rejects all of that and doesn't believe it so...

Her magic basically ignores things being out of existence on a multiverse scale


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 12, 2013)

A Cyber-Leader did say all universes would be deleted if the TARDIS exploded.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 12, 2013)

TTGL said:


> The paragraph pacifically stated she was Universal, and the Watchmakers wanted to rationalise the Universe and cast ehr out of it. Multiverse is mentioned nowhere (infact the multiverse is mentioned rarely in Doctor who, save for Chronovores, Omega, Bad Wolf, Davros's Doom Weapon, the TARDIS Eaters pocket dimension are some notable examples).



The multiverse wouldn't have existed at this point, because its creation and structure rely on physics and those didn't exist either until the primordial Time Lords invented them. Not that the 'universe' the Carnival Queen describes would be anything scientifically recognizable as a universe in the first place. It would just be an infinite space containing all possibilities.

Anyway, the Carnival Queen is vastly more powerful than the Great Old Ones, who are universal reality warpers themselves. The fact that her escape is considered the end of creation as everyone knows it also implies that she could tell the Six-Fold-God to piss off if they tried to interfere, and the Six-Fold-God is multiversal according to Quantum Archangel.

A trickle of the Carnival Queen's power warped reality on modern Gallifrey, bypassing the transduction barrier and controlling the Eye of Harmony:



> Aeons in the past, on a planet very near the centre of the galaxy, ancient automatic defence systems spontaneously activated themselves, and around the Capitol six hundred Time Lords simultaneously claimed to be possessed by the ghost of Morbius. In her office, the Lady President experienced an unexpected epileptic fit, during which she signed an order for three hundred prisoners to be released from a prison asteroid. Dragon tattoos snapped like flytraps on the arms of the convicts as they stepped out of stasis, and leading them was the ?voodoo priest of the House of Lungbarrow?, the one they called Grandfather Paradox, who ? according to popular fable ? had only escaped execution because everyone was more afraid of him dead than alive. An embryo in one of the gene-looms began scratching the blueprints of a demat-gun into the semiotic fluid that surrounded it. Murder was etched across the face of the planet. The Eye of Harmony winked.



Another side effect of her power results in the creation of a billion new universes:



> The woman (that was the only way to think of her, as the woman) spread her arms wide, and they made tiny and beautiful echoes of light in the air around her.
> 
> ? I?m the one who starts the carnivals, Christopher Cwej. The one who makes the music that plays when civilizations fall. Sister to superstitions, grandmother of gynoids. The spirit imprisoned in every piece of clockwork. Matheson Catcher would call me the enemy of all humanity, which seems funny, when you consider how long he?s been under my spell.
> 
> ...



The Doctor outright states that the Carnival Queen will remove history completely, which isn't exclusive to any single universe:



> All eyes turned on him. Two of the Doctor?s, an infinite number of the Carnival Queen?s (and she had an infinite number more to spare).
> 
> ?Who do you trust?? asked the Doctor. ?Me or her??
> 
> ...



And so on. The Carnival Queen is clearly not just universal. In fact she's presented as arguably the single most powerful character in Doctor Who.


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## Bioness (Oct 12, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> What do you mean by "mini-universes"?
> And if they are "mini" then with the same reasoning we can at best only call the TARDIS a "mini-multiverse".



Multiple potentially infinite dimensions is what a TARDIS is. Though dimensions/universes sometimes overlap. However I don't know what jetwaterluffy1 is trying to argue.

The Eye of Harmony is described as being a micro universe.



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> A Cyber-Leader did say all universes would be deleted if the TARDIS exploded.



I really dislike that he says that, although the Sontaran leader does back it up with "all of reality is threatened". We however only see it affecting the main universe and later on it is again only claimed to have reset a single universe. I feel this comes from the writing style and having not much explained, the Reality Bomb that was explained in depth, TARDIS exploding eehh not so much.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 13, 2013)

Point is, it is infinite and can self destruct. They follow the definition of universe because they are isloated sections of space connected by wormholes. I dunno where I was going with this, though, because the main point is that to destroy them would take a countably infinite energy, the same countably infinite energy needed to destroy an infinite multiverse (or megaverse, for that matter).


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## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

There are different levels of infinity, the same infinite amount of energy required to destroy a single universe is far lower than required to destroy multiples.

And TARDISes can be destroyed without requiring multiversal destructive capacity, you are looking too deep into this I think.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 13, 2013)

> would take a countably infinite energy, the same countably infinite energy needed to destroy an infinite multiverse (or megaverse, for that matter).


not according to ~Marvel or to OBD


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## willyvereb (Oct 13, 2013)

^Or apparently even Doctor Who for that matter.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 13, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> hmm
> 
> Carnival Queen (Dr Who) vs Crimson Queen (CK's mother, Dark Tower) ?


I ask again 

or is Crimson Queens power level unknown ?


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## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

That isn't the only reason your post was ignored, but whatever.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 13, 2013)

if you don't have anything useful to say, Bioness, don't say anything at all


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## willyvereb (Oct 13, 2013)

^I think he did want something useful to say.
To you.
No idea what, though.


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## Bioness (Oct 13, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> if you don't have anything useful to say, Bioness, don't say anything at all


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> I ask again
> 
> or is Crimson Queens power level unknown ?



From the sound of it the Crimson Queen is much closer to the Crimson King's avatar than his true form, which means she'd (quite appropriately) get crushed like a bug.

If the Carnival Queen is indeed more powerful than the Six-Fold-God then you'd probably have to go all the way up to beings like Gan or the Crimson King's true form to take her down.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Oct 13, 2013)

fair enough


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 13, 2013)

Well, Gan and the Crimson King are probably overkill due to being megaversal+, but I'm blanking on anything in the Dark Tower that fits into the lower end of the megaversal scale.


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## Galo de Lion (Oct 16, 2013)

jetwaterluffy1 said:


> Is no-one going to address my point on tardises? According to journey to the centre of the tardis pretty much all of them are capable of infinite multiversal power. Following this the time lords should win even if doctor who doesn't have a multiverse.



The Tardis is capable of creating whichever rooms & corridors that the Doctor needs (or if it's possessed by something like the TARDIS Eater). Creating different rooms for the TARDIS doesn't make it infinite on a multiversial level (though it is at least Universe+). I think you also said that if the TARDIS is destroyed, then all universes will be destroyed. Mabye this is so, but how would a single supernova (which powers the TARDIS) destroy every universe?



Eldritch Sukima said:


> The multiverse wouldn't have existed at this point, because its creation and structure rely on physics and those didn't exist either until the primordial Time Lords invented them. Not that the 'universe' the Carnival Queen describes would be anything scientifically recognizable as a universe in the first place. It would just be an infinite space containing all possibilities.



Only there was on many occassions said to be a Universe existing before the one the Time Lords lived in, and how the Elder Gods were the equivilent of Time Lords in the last universe. An infinite space would be a universe anyway.




Eldritch Sukima said:


> Another side effect of her power results in the creation of a billion new universes:
> 
> The woman (that was the only way to think of her, as the woman) spread her arms wide, and they made tiny and beautiful echoes of light in the air around her.
> 
> ...



It didn't say she created a billion Universes, but a billion _possible_ universes, which is a way of saying how many ways she could change the future, or how the universe could be different. Many other characters from different works have said something along a similar line (eg. seeing every universe may mean seeing all the previous universes and future universes in the same dimension). You said before that the old Universe was an infinite space filled with posabilities.



Eldritch Sukima said:


> The Doctor outright states that the Carnival Queen will remove history completely, which isn't exclusive to any single universe:
> 
> All eyes turned on him. Two of the Doctor?s, an infinite number of the Carnival Queen?s (and she had an infinite number more to spare).
> 
> ...



He never specifies whether he means Universe or Multiverse history, and usually in Doctor Who they would make that correction (history can also mean just a planet, though it would be more in this case). That isn't good enough prove to put her above The Elder Gods or Omega.


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## jetwaterluffy1 (Oct 16, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Only there was on many occassions said to be a Universe existing before the one the Time Lords lived in, and how the Elder Gods were the equivilent of Time Lords in the last universe. An infinite space would be a universe anyway.



So long as they are both countably infinite, an infinite universe and an infinite multiverse are both the same size.


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## teddy (Oct 16, 2013)

TTGL said:


> It didn't say she created a billion Universes, but a billion _possible_ universes, which is a way of saying how many ways she could change the future, or how the universe could be different.



Sounds like the same difference honestly


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 16, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Only there was on many occassions said to be a Universe existing before the one the Time Lords lived in, and how the Elder Gods were the equivilent of Time Lords in the last universe. An infinite space would be a universe anyway.



Yeah, about that:



> ? The Watchmakers, being rational monsters, never understood that passage properly. They take it all very literally, these days. They think it means that there was another universe before this one, and that it was destroyed in the Big Bang. Ask the Doctor, and that?s what he?ll tell you. Naturellement, it isn?t true. The ?Space before this? was just this universe, before the Watchmakers sucked all of the glamour and the strangeness from its bones. Ohh, yes, there were those of the old time who escaped. A handful of baby godlings and ?great intelligences?... but they were such weak, unimaginative creatures. Too ready to obey the Watchmakers? order. Too ready to give themselves up to Reason.
> 
> ? Not like me. Not like me at all.



Those things she's mocking for being so weak and unimaginative are the Great Old Ones.



> It didn't say she created a billion Universes, but a billion _possible_ universes, which is a way of saying how many ways she could change the future, or how the universe could be different. Many other characters from different works have said something along a similar line (eg. seeing every universe may mean seeing all the previous universes and future universes in the same dimension). You said before that the old Universe was an infinite space filled with posabilities.



Except if that was the case the number of possible universes born in that moment would have been infinite.



> He never specifies whether he means Universe or Multiverse history, and usually in Doctor Who they would make that correction (history can also mean just a planet, though it would be more in this case). That isn't good enough prove to put her above The Elder Gods or Omega.



Evidently you ignored the fact that a tiny portion of the Carnival Queen's power could completely screw over modern Gallifrey, which is every bit as powerful as Omega.


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## Galo de Lion (Oct 16, 2013)

Aren't the Elder Gods always trying to end the timelords? So I don't see how they obey the ancient Timelords. She made someone release a bunch of prisoners with moving tattoos, that doesn't make her multiversial.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Oct 16, 2013)

TTGL said:


> Aren't the Elder Gods always trying to end the timelords? So I don't see how they obey the ancient Timelords.



She means that the Great Old Ones make some degree of sense, not that they literally obey commands from the Time Lords.



> She made someone release a bunch of prisoners with moving tattoos, that doesn't make her multiversial.



You missed the two important parts, namely:

1. Her reality warping laughed at the transduction barrier, a feat that can only be replicated by powerful cosmic forces like the entire Divine Host of the Chronovores.

2. Her irrationality controlled the Eye of Harmony, which is the single most powerful thing the Time Lords have.

Omega is 'merely' as powerful as the modern pre-war Time Lords. The fact that the Carnival Queen effortlessly made Gallifrey her bitch indicates that she's far above that level.


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