# rikudou naruto vs rikudou kakashi



## Android (May 5, 2016)

location : the moon 

distance : 50 metres 

ristrections : nothing

knowledge : full for both 

discuss


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## ARGUS (May 5, 2016)

-- kamui gets sensed and dodged 

 -- shurikens get dodged no diff 

 -- PS gets raped by BDRS or TBB barrage 

 -- Kakashi then gets raped by clones using flash shunshin and Rasengans. The second he comes to attack is when he gets wrecked  

Naruto low/mid diffs


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## KiNGPiN (May 5, 2016)

Kakashi is just a haxed character tbh, Kamui is probably the most OP MS tech ever


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

KiNGPiN said:


> Kakashi is just a haxed character tbh, Kamui is probably the most OP MS tech ever


KB > kamui


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

You really don't seem to get why Kakashi's power-up was short-lived, or why the storm brewed up in the Library those two weeks.



ARGUS said:


> -- kamui gets sensed and dodged


Kakashi can specify the size of barrier space at will, and—

You can 'potentially' sense (thus dodge) Kamui, if your body is in one piece. Given Kakashi's mastery as shown during the war, I believe that's an improbable scenario. Only this time around, you have another Mangekyou completing the set, thus double the speed. . . and Six Paths chakra channeling through.



> -- shurikens get dodged no diff


They are quite useful against your proposed counters that Naruto has against the complete Susano'o, in your succeeding statement.



> -- PS gets raped by BDRS or TBB barrage


The complete Susano'o is capable of flight, and Kakashi's was shown to be remarkably fast as well.



> -- Kakashi then gets raped by clones using flash shunshin and Rasengans. The second he comes to attack is when he gets wrecked


Nah. Kakashi storms through the clones, cutting through them. . . and fortunately Naruto is a certified idiot, so we will get something like this too.

Your case only works, if Kakashi has his hands and feet tied; is not allowed to use any of his techniques; and asked to just. . . stand there. All while Naruto senses and dodges Kamui shots never fired and, shurikens never thrown; the regular Susano'o form redefined as complete one; and the passive ability to phase through attacks suddenly non-functional.



cctr9 said:


> KB > kamui



It is, if chakra level is an issue. Unfortunately for you, it is not. Two, Kakashi is not an idiot to fall prey to the counter-measure he himself came up with. He is quite fond of decapitation and severing limbs. That will do.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Narudo fodderstomps the living shit out of him low-difficult. 

He is several tiers above DMS Kakashi.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> They are quite useful against your proposed counters that Naruto has against the complete Susano'o, in your succeeding statement.


kamui shurikens are non-factor , a barrage of TBBs counters it with ease 
chances that kakashi's susanoo gets hit with TBBs are far bigger than naruto avatar gets hit with 4 shurikens 


Hasan said:


> The complete Susano'o is capable of flight, and Kakashi's was shown to be remarkably fast as well.


naruto's avatar can fly and can use shadow clones as well , and his fire power is bigger and better than kakashi's susanoo 


Hasan said:


> Nah. Kakashi storms through the clones, cutting through them. . . and fortunately Naruto is a certified idiot, so we will get something like this too.
> sure , if the clones just stay there without moving , kakashi already got feinted with naruto's clones , so chances are even bigger that he gets gang banged with a barrage of 1000 clones or something
> unfortunatly , kakashi's MS can't tell the difference between the clone and the real one , once he wraps a clone , or two , he's fucked , as he is going to be attacked from both sides , canseling his kamui
> 
> ...


naruto already reacted to kaguya's hirasaka , sasuke's ameno , and madara's limbo , a techniques faster than kamui 
and once again , MS can't tell the real naruto from his clones , sooner or later he'll wrap a couple of clones , and when he do that he's dead 


Hasan said:


> It is, if chakra level is an issue. Unfortunately for you, it is not. Two, Kakashi is not an idiot to fall prey to the counter-measure he himself came up with. He is quite fond of decapitation and severing limbs. That will do.


unfortunately for you , there's nothing kakashi can do here , naruto's KB and speed and sensing shit on kamui 
yes kakashi is not an idiot , but we already saw naruto making a fool out of him in the bell test , naruto has his tricks as well , and his usage of KB is the best in the manga , kakashi is out of luck here unfortunately


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Narudo fodderstomps the living shit out of him low-difficult.
> 
> He is several tiers above DMS Kakashi.


i never thought about how disgustingly overrated DMS kakashi is , until the last couple days , can you believe that


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> kamui shurikens are non-factor , a barrage of TBBs counters it with ease
> chances that kakashi's susanoo gets hit with TBBs are far bigger than naruto avatar gets hit with 4 shurikens


I am certain he can throw more than just four shurikens.



> naruto's avatar can fly and can use shadow clones as well , and his fire power is bigger and better than kakashi's susanoo


You seem to have missed part of Argus' post, to which that was a response.



> naruto already reacted to kaguya's hirasaka , sasuke's ameno , and madara's limbo , a techniques faster than kamui
> and once again , MS can't tell the real naruto from his clones , sooner or later he'll wrap a couple of clones , and when he do that he's dead


Re-read that part of my post, maybe?



> unfortunately for you , there's nothing kakashi can do here , naruto's KB and speed and sensing shit on kamui
> yes kakashi is not an idiot , but we already saw naruto making a fool out of him in the bell test , naruto has his tricks as well , and his usage of KB is the best in the manga , kakashi is out of luck here unfortunately


Er, what does it have to do with the point that I made?


cctr9 said:


> i never thought about how disgustingly overrated DMS kakashi is , until the last couple days , can you believe that


You do not sound like you are acquainted with Kishimoto's writing style.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> i never thought about how disgustingly overrated DMS kakashi is , until the last couple days , can you believe that


I never understood all the hype he got. 

At best, he is around EMS Asspulldara, Hashirama, and BM Minato/Naruto for a few moments. And that's about it.
Thinking he is anywhere above that is pretty retarded as far as I am concerned.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

I don't know, I think it might be 50/50. DMS Kakashi was clearly above Rinnegan Sasuke, but SPSM Naruto? I say they're on about the same level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> but SPSM Naruto? I say they're on about the same level.




If you really take a look at the feats. they really aren't

 seriously there were threads where I shut down everything the kakashitard had been using to defend this shit and they failed to defend it every time. they either come out with more shit or they basically just repeat the same shit.. This days I just ignore their bullshit.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> If you really take a look at the feats. they really aren't
> 
> seriously there were threads where I shut down everything the kakashitard had been using to defend this shit and they failed to defend it every time. they either come out with more shit or they basically just repeat the same shit.. This days I just ignore their bullshit.


Raikir17 basically wrote an entire essay explaining how powerful DMS Kakashi was, that essay was enough to convince me DMS Kakashi > Rinnegan Sasuke but DMS Kakashi >= SPSM Naruto. His points were all pretty solid, not sure how his whole argument could be shut down.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Kakashi being stronger than Sasuke is pretty stupid. 
We might as well say Sakura was also "clearly" above Sasuke's level.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kakashi being stronger than Sasuke is pretty stupid.
> We might as well say Sakura was also "clearly" above Sasuke's level.


Kaguya completely trashed Sasuke whilst Kakashi dominated her, I'm not seeing how this is comparable.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kaguya completely trashed Sasuke whilst Kakashi dominated her, I'm not seeing how this is comparable.


Kaguya completely trashed Sasuke whilst Sakura dominated her, I'm not seeing how this is comparable. 

Or does that logic only apply to Kakashi but not Sakura?


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Naruto can also send a clone to the other side and fuck Kakashi's phasing whenever he use it with a rasengan variant.



I did not know that Naruto had Kamui.



> anyone can play that game.
> But we follow a rule where feats  >  poster statement.



Feats imply that Kakashi can create shurikens and apply Kamui's effects to it. He threw four of them. Feats do not imply that he cannot swing more than once to. . . throw more than four shurikens.



Hussain said:


> Or does that logic only apply to Kakashi but not Sakura?



Kaguya thrusted upwards. . . _towards_ Sakura, who was maneuvering over her, courtesy of Kakashi.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Feats imply that Kakashi can create shurikens and apply Kamui's effects to it. He threw four of them. Feats do not imply that he cannot swing more than once to. . . throw more than four shurikens.



Feats show that Narudo can use 1000 clones. Those 1000 clones can use Kurama's avatars.

Tell us what is your Kakashi going to do.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Kaguya thrusted upwards. . . _towards_ Sakura, who was maneuvering over her, courtesy of Kakashi.



Not sure what is that supposed to prove exactly.

Sakura's punch did effect Kaguya, did it not?
Sasuke's PS got trashed, did it not?

Was Kishi telling us that Sakura's punch >>>>> Sasuke's PS? Yes or no?
and therefore she is stronger than him?


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Kaguya completely trashed Sasuke whilst Sakura dominated her, I'm not seeing how this is comparable.
> 
> Or does that logic only apply to Kakashi but not Sakura?


Can you please not act retarded? All Sakura did was punch her in the end. Kakashi incapacitated her and allowed them to achieve victory.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I am certain he can throw more than just four shurikens.


his feats says otherwise unfortunately


Isaiah13000 said:


> Raikir17 basically wrote an entire essay explaining how powerful DMS Kakashi was, that essay was enough to convince me


not an argument , you know raikiri is kakashi's biggest fanboy here 
i'm surprised and disappointed by this logic of yours TBH 


Isaiah13000 said:


> DMS Kakashi >= SPSM Naruto.


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Can you please not act retarded? All Sakura did was punch her in the end. Kakashi incapacitated her and allowed them to achieve victory.


I am pleased that you see the logic you were using as  a retarded logic, since I was using it. ^_^

And all Kakashi did was hitting her with 1 attack as well. What makes Kakashi's 1 attack more important than Sakura's 1 attack? 

- No, Sakura is the one who allowed them to achieve victory by not letting Kaguya escape. Your bias is pretty apparent.


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## Max Thunder (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Raikir17 basically wrote an entire essay explaining how powerful DMS Kakashi was, that essay was enough to convince me DMS Kakashi > Rinnegan Sasuke but DMS Kakashi >= SPSM Naruto. His points were all pretty solid, not sure how his whole argument could be shut down.



Keep posting bullshit like this and you'll become about as credible as he is.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I am pleased that you see the logic you were using as  a retarded logic, since I was using it. ^_^
> 
> And all Kakashi did was hitting her with 1 attack as well. What makes Kakashi's 1 attack more important than Sakura's 1 attack?
> 
> - No, Sakura is the one who allowed them to achieve victory by not letting Kaguya escape. Your bias is pretty apparent.


Kakashi saved Sakura's life when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, got rid of Kaguya's chakra arms when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, incapacitated Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, saved Naruto's life by warping away Kaguya's bone before it hit him, and allowed Sakura to punch her in the first place as she leaped out of his Susanoo. If you think Kakashi and Sakura's actions are equivalent then you're trolling.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Max Thunder said:


> Keep posting bullshit like this and you'll become about as credible as he is.


When you come up with an actual argument instead of "lol bullshit" then I'll bother to respond to your next comment.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi saved Sakura's life when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, got rid of Kaguya's chakra arms when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, incapacitated Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, saved Naruto's life by warping away Kaguya's bone before it hit him, and allowed Sakura to punch her in the first place as she leaped out of his Susanoo. If you think Kakashi and Sakura's actions are equivalent then you're trolling.


naruto's general performance against kaguya is far greater than kakashi's so don't even dream of comparing the two


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi saved Sakura's life when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, got rid of Kaguya's chakra arms when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, incapacitated Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, saved Naruto's life by warping away Kaguya's bone before it hit him, and allowed Sakura to punch her in the first place as she leaped out of his Susanoo. If you think Kakashi and Sakura's actions are equivalent then you're trolling.


Yes, because Narudo and Sasuke actually moved. lol
Or that they tried to attack Kaguya's tail to begin with. lol

By your logic, she also was the reason to why Sasuke returned to where Narudo is when he (Sasuke) couldn't do it himself, nor was Narudo able to do so. That does not mean she is stronger than them, does it?

- Yeah, because Sakura nevered saved their lives, right? 

All of what you said have absolutely nothing to do with proving X being stronger than Y.

Sakura saved Narudo and Sasuke from Shin in the gaiden, has anyone taken that as a proof that she is stronger than them? lol



> If you think Kakashi and Sakura's actions are equivalent then you're trolling.



Rather if Kakashi-fanboys give credits to him and not Sakura, then they are hypocrites with obvious double standards


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I did not know that Naruto had Kamui.




First Kakashi is spamming Kamui. Kamui shuriken kamui raikiri, kamui whatever.
Naruto is an expert in 2 things that anyone can easily forget. Clones and Transformation techniques..
:he doesn't need to have kamui for him to cross to the other dimension he could fucking throw a rock clone at the moment kakashi opens 1 of his kamui skill and he already has a clone on that dimension.
 we know he is fast enough to do that.



> Feats imply that Kakashi can create shurikens and apply Kamui's effects to it. He threw four of them. Feats do not imply that he cannot swing more than once to. . . throw more than four shurikens.


His feat also implies he can't spam it endlessly.




> Kaguya thrusted upwards. . . _towards_ Sakura, who was maneuvering over her, courtesy of Kakashi.


Courtesy of fucking plot.

Kaguya has the ability to open multiple wormholes, and flight. She wasn't put in that situation by kakashi she was put in a situation because Kishi wanted a team 7 moment. Anyone can make 100 of move there where Kaguya would not even need to move toward sakura.

1 She has a version of Ameno (Same as Sauce)
2. she can open portals where Sauce or Naruto can fall in.
3. she can even do it on herself.
4 she can open it anywhere that Kakashi wouldn't be able to Kamui like her feet or her back.
5 she has 3 sensing ability available to her
6 Byakugan.
7 Chakra sensing.
8 Emotion sensing.
and so on and so forth

If Kishi didn't ignore even 1 of that the whole scenario is fucked. only 1 of that is needed and I can list more.


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Feats show that Narudo can use 1000 clones. Those 1000 clones can use Kurama's avatars.
> 
> Tell us what is your Kakashi going to do.


Read Icha Icha, because Naruto would be dead? 



Hussain said:


> Not sure what is that supposed to prove exactly.
> 
> Sakura's punch did effect Kaguya, did it not?
> Sasuke's PS got trashed, did it not?
> ...



Kakashi engaged Kaguya head-on, and cut her through. Sakura's hit was made possible, with Kakashi getting Kaguya in the position to get hit, and Sakura to hit. Kakashi practically gift-wrapped their victory for the remaining to tie the knot at the end.



cctr9 said:


> his feats says otherwise unfortunately


Yeah, and you are applying those feats. . . or rather techniques in a "hypothetical" context—of course, with any limitations described in the manga. Feats suggest that Kakashi can use Kamui Shuriken. In Battledome, as I understand, it means that Kakashi can use Kamui Shuriken as long as his reserves allow.

The manga is a _story. _If you are that much committed to feats as they happened exactly in the manga, then there is essentially no point in arguing these hypothetical scenarios. That is, feats do not suggest that Kakashi can use Kamui Shuriken, rather they suggest that Kakashi used 4 Kamui Shurikens against Kaguya's Unstable Form. Thus, outside of that context, you cannot use those feats. . . is what you are essentially arguing.


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> Kakashi engaged Kaguya head-on, and cut her through.



because he suddenly had access to a hax he wasn't supposed to have.

he didn't repeat it once Kaguya learned that he has a phasing ability.

 and he still failed to do any concrete damage unlike Naruto who literally tore out one of Kaguya's arm.



> akura's hit was made possible, with Kakashi getting Kaguya in the position to get hit, and Sakura to hit. Kakashi practically gift-wrapped their victory for the remaining to tie the knot at the end.



Again it was made possible because Kishi wanted a muh team 7 moment and not because of Kakashi.



> , rather they suggest that Kakashi used 4 Kamui Shurikens against Kaguya's Unstable Form. Thus, outside of that context, you cannot use those feats. . . is what you are essentially arguing.



No what we are saying is Kakashi can't use it again and again as you are implying earlier.

can he use it twice maybe three time you're probably pushing it. 10 times. that's bullshit.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Read Icha Icha, because Naruto would be dead?


reading Itcha Icha in the after life next to his father , while naruto is at home enjoying ramen with hinata


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Read Icha Icha, because Naruto would be dead?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1- I would love to know how he is going to be dead. 

2- Who said that she needs to do the exact same thing like Kakashi? 
and no, he did not "get kaguya in the position to get hit" Kaguya got attacked, and then she dodged Narudo and Sasuke which when Sakura smashed her to not let her escape.

Also, you completely ignored my question. Was Kishi telling us that Sakura's punch is stronger than Sasuke's PS or not?

3- No he did not. That was an entire team-effort. Without Sakura's punch, what Kakashi did wouldn't have meant jack-shit because Kaguya would have simply escaped. And the whole thing/battle was forced to get to that point about the "teamwork" otherwise, Kaguya would have trashed all of them.


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> First Kakashi is spamming Kamui. Kamui shuriken kamui raikiri, kamui whatever.
> Naruto is an expert in 2 things that anyone can easily forget. Clones and Transformation techniques..
> :he doesn't need to have kamui for him to cross to the other dimension he could fucking throw a rock clone at the moment kakashi opens 1 of his kamui skill and he already has a clone on that dimension.
> we know he is fast enough to do that.


You were talkin' about feats, hm?




> His feat also implies he can't spam it endlessly.


Did I say he could? No.



> Courtesy of fucking plot.
> 
> Kaguya has the ability to open multiple wormholes, and flight. She wasn't put in that situation by kakashi she was put in a situation because Kishi wanted a team 7 moment. Anyone can make 100 of move there where Kaguya would not even need to move toward sakura.
> 
> ...


Do I care? No. All that the manga shows is that Kakashi orchestrated the plan, and was instrumental in bringing about Kaguya's defeat. You can take it up Kishimoto, if you have issues. . . we're discussing *ahem* what was actually shown in the manga.



shade0180 said:


> because he suddenly had access to a hax he wasn't supposed to have.
> 
> he didn't repeat it once Kaguya learned that he has a phasing ability.
> 
> and he still failed to do any concrete damage unlike Naruto who literally tore out one of Kaguya's arm.


And?



> Again it was made possible because Kishi wanted a muh team 7 moment and not because of Kakashi.


Irrelevant.



> No what we are saying is Kakashi can't use it again and again as you are implying earlier.


Ugh, what. I only said that Kakashi can use more than four shurikens.



> can he use it twice maybe three time you're probably pushing it. 10 times. that's bullshit.


Six Paths chakra. I'll let you figure out.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> naruto's general performance against kaguya is far greater than kakashi's so don't even dream of comparing the two



No not really, Naruto did a good job at dealing with her but his performance isn't greater than Kakashi's. 



Hussain said:


> Yes, because Narudo and Sasuke actually moved. lol
> Or that they tried to attack Kaguya's tail to begin with. lol
> 
> By your logic, she also was the reason to why Sasuke returned to where Narudo is when he (Sasuke) couldn't do it himself, nor was Narudo able to do so. That does not mean she is stronger than them, does it?
> ...





DMS Kakashi blitzed Kaguya even after she had just powered up as stated by Black Zetsu. He was able to take out her chakra arms with his Kamui Shuriken quickly, with Naruto stating how fast the arms were with his clone being unable to react. He was able to grab and save Sakura with his PS before Sasuke even with Ameno could do anything. This is beyond stupid. It's because of Kakashi that they were able to end the battle, he was the star player on that battlefield by the end of the battle.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Hasan said:


> You were talkin' about feats, hm?


You know he used that with pein. clone fient stones.

 and Obito in a different manner i mean sending a clone to Kamui land



> Do I care? No. All that the manga shows is that Kakashi orchestrated the plan, and was instrumental in bringing about Kaguya's defeat. You can take it up Kishimoto, if you have issues. . . we're discussing *ahem* what was actually shown in the manga.



yes we are discussing things in the manga and the list I pointed out was  Kaguya's ability shown in the manga in the very same arc..




> Six Paths chakra. I'll let you figure out.



Six path chakra don't give you unlimited uses of your jutsu. if it did then we won't have sauce and Nardo tiring at Vote 2


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55590361, member: 251681"]No not really, Naruto did a good job at dealing with her but his performance isn't greater than Kakashi's.


The fuck is this nonsense? 
Narudo's performance is way above Kakashi. It's not even close. 





> DMS Kakashi blitzed Kaguya even after she had just powered up as stated by Black Zetsu. He was able to take out her chakra arms with his Kamui Shuriken quickly, with Naruto stating how fast the arms were with his clone being unable to react. He was able to grab and save Sakura with his PS before Sasuke even with Ameno could do anything. e



And?

Bolt killed Momoshiki after he powered up and smashed Sasuke, I guess that means Bolt is stronger than Sasuke? 

- His clones are unable to reacte, or he purposely went there to save the others? 

- Sasuke's Kawarimi jutsu has a limited range, you know that, right?




> This is beyond stupid. It's because of Kakashi that they were able to end the battle, he was the star player on that battlefield by the end of the battl



Nonsense.


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> DMS Kakashi blitzed Kaguya even after she had just powered up as stated by Black Zetsu.



The Blitz never happened.

 I won't repeat myself there's already an explanation in other thread why it was not a blitz


Isaiah13000 said:


> e was able to take out her chakra arms with his Kamui Shuriken quickly,


And??


Isaiah13000 said:


> with Naruto stating how fast the arms were with his clone being unable to react.


And yet they reacted earlier and later on.


Isaiah13000 said:


> his is beyond stupid. It's because of Kakashi that they were able to end the battle, he was the star player on that battlefield by the end of the battle


He isn't really. he made a crappy plan that wouldn't work if Kishi didn't apply CIS on Kaguya.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> No not really, Naruto did a good job at dealing with her but his performance isn't greater than Kakashi's.


yes it is 
naruto :
- blitzed her with no reaction what so ever and from a far distance , and managed to cut off her arm
- he escaped her ST from a very short distance , even zetsu was impressed with his reactions
- overpowered her chakra arms
- nuked her ass with 9 rasenshurikens , again without any reaction from her , that's *9* *hits* at the sam time
- he bullied her with his boil release , and managed to slam her into a mountain
- faught her alone far longer than kakashi did and held his own pretty well , and was the one who caused the biggest damage to her
while kakashi :
- land a hit on her with kamui raikiri , and no it wasn't a blitz , she reacted to him twice , and the hit was from a shorter distance
- took off 4 chakra arms , with shurikens
- wraped away her ash bone , and no his kamui didn't outsped her ST , it outsped what happened after the ST , and the attack wasn't even directed at him

- naruto didn't use his mech or his full arsenal
- kakashi used literally everything he got
- naruto faught for a 3 days non-stop before the kaguya fight

after this can you tell me how the fuckl are their performance comparable ?


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> - wraped away her ash bone , and no his kamui didn't outsped her ST , it outsped what happened after the ST , and the attack wasn't even directed at him



It wasn't even Kaguya who activated the 2 ability that kakashi countered to begin with.

BZ can access the ability of who he is combined with as shown with Obito. and he is combined to Kaguya's torn arm. In short BZ used Kaguya's ability and that was the one countered by Kakashi.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The fuck is this nonsense?
> Narudo's performance is way above Kakashi. It's not even close.



>Kakashi's actions lead to Kaguya's defeat.
>Naruto's actions lead to him and Sasuke nearly be killed and Obito having to sacrifice himself for them.
>Says Naruto's performance was way above







> And?
> 
> Bolt killed Momoshiki after he powered up and smashed Sasuke, I guess that means Bolt is stronger than Sasuke?
> 
> ...





> Yeah, not addressing anything regarding Gaiden or Boruto. I can see that people still completely ignore the circumstances of the events in those adaptions and use it to their own benefit. What are you talking about? His clones got massacred by her chakra arms. Well he could've used Susanoo?


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

The funny part about those whole Kakashi festival wank 

> Kakashi do it.

100% proof that he is better/stronger

> Bolt does it to momoshiki? Nope
> Sakura does it to Kaguya? Does not count
> Kages do it to Kinshiki? Does not prove anything
> Hima solos Narudo? Does not count


----------



## Android (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> It wasn't even Kaguya who activated those 2 ability to begin with.


was it zetsu ?


----------



## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> was it zetsu ?


Yea BZ was connected to Kaguya's torn arm. Kaguya hasn't shown any ability to control and of her torn limbs or tail nor any Juubi host for that matter. 

 Madara was torn in half - he didn't control the lower half of his body
Obito was also split at some point hasn't shown the ability to control that part of his body
Kaguya's arm was torn, a few of her tail was kamui'd she hasn't been shown to control any of that once it got split from her. 

BZ has shown that once he can take over he would have access to your abilities.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> yes it is
> naruto :
> - blitzed her with no reaction what so ever and from a far distance , and managed to cut off her arm
> - he escaped her ST from a very short distance , even zetsu was impressed with his reactions
> ...


The main thing that diminishes Naruto's performance is that Kaguya became "exponentially" stronger and faster according to Black Zetsu which happened after her fight with Naruto. The version of Kaguya that Kakashi took on own and owned was a much stronger version of Kaguya than the one Naruto fought.


----------



## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> >Kakashi's actions lead to Kaguya's defeat.
> >Naruto's actions lead to him and Sasuke nearly be killed and Obito having to sacrifice himself for them.
> >Says Naruto's performance was way above


>takes a post from a kakashi's number one fanboy as an argument 
.completly ignores manga feats 
>has the nerve to say kakashi did better


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55590441, member: 251681"]>Kakashi's actions lead to Kaguya's defeat.
> >Naruto's actions lead to him and Sasuke nearly be killed and Obito having to sacrifice himself for them.
> >Says Naruto's performance was way above




Neither Obito nor Kakashi would have stayed alive without Narudo to begin with. So, yeah, your reasoning is pretty much entirely based on pure nonsense. Additionally, saving someone does not mean you are better than them.

Based on this nonsense Bolt is greater than all 5 Kages because they were paralysed and he saved them. 



> Yeah, not addressing anything regarding Gaiden or Boruto. I can see that people still completely ignore the circumstances of the events in those adaptions and use it to their own benefit. What are you talking about? His clones got massacred by her chakra arms. Well he could've used Susanoo?



Dear Lord! The irony is over the top! 
You are TOTALLY not ignoring anything in Kaguya's battle, are you?


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> >takes a post from a kakashi's number one fanboy as an argument
> .completly ignores manga feats
> >has the nerve to say kakashi did better


What makes you think Raikiri17 is a Kakashi fanboy?


----------



## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

You can check his post history for that.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Neither Obito nor Kakashi would have stayed alive without Narudo to begin with. So, yeah, your reasoning is pretty much entirely based on pure nonsense. Additionally, saving someone does not mean you are better than them.
> 
> Based on this nonsense Bolt is greater than all 5 Kages because they were paralysed and he saved them.
> 
> ...



That doesn't mean Naruto performed better against Kaguya. I'm referring purely to each individual performance.


----------



## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The main thing that diminishes Naruto's performance is that Kaguya became "exponentially" stronger and faster according to Black Zetsu which happened after her fight with Naruto. The version of Kaguya that Kakashi took on own and owned was a much stronger version of Kaguya than the one Naruto fought.


utter crap 
can see you couldn't counter anything i posted 
when did kakashi ever '' took on and own kaguya '' ? he landed a hit on her and that's it 
what naruto did against her is far more impressive than just landing a hit


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Example for @ COMPLETE care for circumstances

He is saying 


> I can see that people still completely ignore the circumstances of the events in those adaptions and use it to their own benefit.



and then



> His clones got massacred by her chakra arms.



completely ignoring
so we will get something like this too

That the clone went there to save Narudo and Sasuke to begin with.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> utter crap
> can see you couldn't counter anything i posted
> when did kakashi ever '' took on and own kaguya '' ? he landed a hit on her and that's it
> what naruto did against her is far more impressive than just landing a hit


I countered it by saying that the version Kakashi fought was way stronger?


----------



## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That doesn't mean Naruto performed better against Kaguya. I'm referring purely to each individual performance.


Yes he freaking did. 

Narudo was taking her on almost  entirely by himself. Kakashi doing what attack at the end does not mean he did better than Narudo. lol
This stupid.

It's like saying
> Narudo defeated the 3rd Raikage
> Suna fodder came at the end and sealed him.

Therefore, Suna fodder is better because he did the sealing. 
and ignoring everything before that.

This is pretty sad... 


Kakashi ain't holding a candle to neither Narudo nor Sasuke. That's pretty much a fact.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Example for @ COMPLETE care for circumstances
> 
> He is saying
> 
> ...


So you just proved that Naruto and Sasuke were unable to react to the chakra arms themselves...


----------



## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> fought


that's your mistake right there , he didn't faught shit , he landed one hit and that's it 
besides , i wouldn't call a kaguya who was losing control of the bijuu inside her and was unstable a '' stronger version''


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## Trojan (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> So you just proved that Naruto and Sasuke were unable to react to the chakra arms themselves...


oh god...

Yeah, I am 100% sure that a clone is better than the real one and Sasuke. So much so that Narudo could have defeated
Sasuke with that clone. 

It did better than Sasuke after all, didn't it?


----------



## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I countered it by saying that the version Kakashi fought was way stronger?



It wasn't even a fight.

He charged, Kaguya reacted, He escape death because he has plot armor, everyone was surprise he survived, kaguya reacted a little late and couldn't totally move out of the way, he hit kaguya,

 that's like me charging a world champion boxer and him reacting to me and throwing a punch, who end up thinking he hit me, when he in truth he only hit air because I slipped on a banana with my fist going straight to his face. I'm pretty sure no one is going to call it a fight if it ever happened.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> oh god...
> 
> Yeah, I am 100% sure that a clone is better than the real one and Sasuke. So much so that Narudo could have defeated
> Sasuke with that clone.
> ...



By "react" I mean being able to dodge the arms on their own. They very clearly couldn't do it which is why the clone knocked them away.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't know enough about him to judge


you're kinda new here , i won't blame ya 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi actually *fought*


you're repeating the same mistake again


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> It wasn't even a fight.
> 
> He charged, Kaguya reacted, He escape death because he has plot armor, everyone was surprise he survived, kaguya reacted a little late and couldn't totally move out of the way, he hit kaguya,
> 
> that's like me charging a world champion boxer and him reacting to me and throwing a punch, who end up thinking he hit me, when he in truth he only hit air because I slipped on a banana with my fist going straight to his face. I'm pretty sure no one is going to call it a fight if it ever happened.



He escaped death because he has Kamui, which is what makes him so deadly. 



cctr9 said:


> you're kinda new here , i won't blame ya
> 
> you're repeating the same mistake again



I don't see how Kakashi's fight being shorter matters? Are you implying if it was longer he'd start to lose?


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> which is what makes him so deadly.



which is also a giant liability in this fight as I pointed out earlier. It is deadly for those who doesn't know it. but to anyone who can clone themselves or even dimension jump. This ability is as good as a double edge sword.

 And Naruto, Sauce and Kaguya has access to one of those abilities.

Anyway back on topic.
He isn't outlasting Naruto in a stamina battle, he really isn't blatantly any faster than Naruto.
He isn't winning in a close combat fight or even a long range battle. His saving grace is phasing.

Once Naruto send a clone to kamui dimension and that clone spam more clone in Kamui dimension. 

Kakashi really has no way of dealing with him. Because Either way he will get a BB to the face. and that's would be just a matter of time, really.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> which is also a giant liability in this fight as I pointed out earlier. It is deadly for those who doesn't know it. but to anyone who can clone themselves or even dimension jump. This ability is as good as a double edge sword.
> 
> And Naruto, Sauce and Kaguya has access to one of those abilities.


The thing is Naruto's Kage Bunshin wont be helpful because they'll get destroyed by the Kamui Shuriken on contact as they're warped away. His Kamui Shuriken will quite literally mow down his Kage Bunshin before they can react since Kamui Shuriken > Kaguya's chakra arms > Naruto and his clone's reflexes. This one is not arguable, Naruto was unable to move on his own to dodge it so his clone knocked him out of the way only to get hit. He stated that they were insanely fast and that they needed to be careful, and then Kakashi proceeds to throw his shuriken at them and warp them all away before the arms can even move to dodge. Naruto and his clones are going to get sliced and diced by Kamui Shuriken, or mowed down by Kamui Raikiri which not even Kaguya could react too.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't see how Kakashi's fight being shorter matters? Are you implying if it was longer he'd start to lose?


yes it matters because it wasn't a fight , it was only one hit 
what i am implaying is , that if kakashi was in naruto's position , you know being forced to fight one on one for a very long time he would've been trashed like a *drunk husband beating up his no longer sexy hot wife* 

and stop using the '' oh naruto faught a kaguya who was low on chakra '' to try to downplay what naruto did 
he was there fighting and landig hits on her before she was even low on chakra 
and FYI , she was getting low on chakra because naruto made the fight so damn hard for her 
naruto landed like 9 rasenshurikens , cut off her arm , slamed her to a mountain , overpowerd her chakra arm , faught for so damn long and all that shit 
how is that not more impressive than landing a single hit and 4 shurikens haa ?  
didn't know that landing a single hit on your opponet is more impressive than landing a 20 hit


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> The thing is Naruto's Kage Bunshin wont be helpful because they'll get destroyed by the Kamui Shuriken on contact as they're warped away.



getting warp away and getting destroyed are two different things.

 also Naruto's clone has shown they can Survive inside Kamui land,


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> The thing is Naruto's Kage Bunshin wont be helpful because they'll get destroyed by the Kamui Shuriken on contact as they're warped away. His Kamui Shuriken will quite literally mow down his Kage Bunshin before they can react since Kamui Shuriken > Kaguya's chakra arms > Naruto and his clone's reflexes. This one is not arguable, Naruto was unable to move on his own to dodge it so his clone knocked him out of the way only to get hit. He stated that they were insanely fast and that they needed to be careful, and then Kakashi proceeds to throw his shuriken at them and warp them all away before the arms can even move to dodge. Naruto and his clones are going to get sliced and diced by Kamui Shuriken, or mowed down by Kamui Raikiri which not even Kaguya could react too.


utter crap
no , his kamui shurikens gets negged by a barage of TBBs 
what the kamui shurikens had was the AOE not speed 
naruto already reacted to sasauke ST , kamui isn't doing shit to him with his sensing since , instant teleport is faster than kamui 
kakashi's sharingan can tell the difference between the real naruto and his cones , kakashi gets feinted , and the moment he gets solid to attack he's done , he gets fucked from both sides , with rasengan , FRS variants

EDIT : kamui shurikens wrap things , they don't destroy them 
kakashi well do naruto a big favore by wraping his clones 
cuz naruto now can attack him from both sides


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 5, 2016)

Lol Fanboys are mad that kakashi got a power up that coupled with his genius tactician intellect, lets him stand up to even naruto.

Talking about feats, lets remember that kcm naruto and killer bee were getting rek by obito and the tailed beasts, until kakashi and gai showed up. And kakashi was able to overcome kaguyas gravity while naruto and sasuke were faceplanted.

Now add rikudo powerup and you can see why he would be dangerous to even naruto (which is a certified dumbass).

It doesn't matter which one you think wins this, it won't be easy for either and naruto winning low diff like some said, is laughable and nearly retarded.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> yes it matters because it wasn't a fight , it was only one hit
> what i am implaying is , that if kakashi was in naruto's position , you know being forced to fight one on one for a very long time he would've been trashed like a *drunk husband beating up his no longer sexy hot wife*


 He'd be capable of performing just as well if not better, he'd just use different techniques.



> and stop using the '' oh naruto faught a kaguya who was low on chakra '' to try to downplay what naruto did
> he was there fighting and landig hits on her before she was even low on chakra
> and FYI , she was getting low on chakra because naruto made the fight so damn hard for her
> naruto landed like 9 rasenshurikens , cut off her arm , slamed her to a mountain , overpowerd her chakra arm , faught for so damn long and all that shit
> ...


I never said she was low on chakra, I simply said she was weaker. Black Zetsu stated himself that Kaguya had just become a whole lot stronger when she faced Kakashi, and yet he blitz her and disables her right arm. Naruto was overpowering Kaguya on his own beforehand but he wasn't overpowering the stronger Kaguya. 



shade0180 said:


> getting warp away and getting destroyed are two different things.
> 
> also Naruto's clone has shown they can Survive inside Kamui land,



The shuriken clearly cut into what they hit before warping it away.



cctr9 said:


> utter crap
> no , his kamui shurikens gets negged by a barage of TBBs
> what the kamui shurikens had was the AOE not speed
> naruto already reacted to sasauke ST , kamui isn't doing shit to him with his sensing since , instant teleport is faster than kamui
> ...



Then Kakashi could always create more Kamui Shuriken and hurl them at Naruto again. Pretty sure they cost less chakra than BDs. He doesn't have to tell the difference which is why he just massacres them all, he can easily charge through them with Kamui Raikiri causing them to all keep poofing away. None of them are gonna be able to react in time let alone mount a defense or offense against him.


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> Then Kakashi could always create more Kamui Shuriken and hurl them at Naruto again.



Again Kakashi isn't spamming that shit. He didn't even have enough chakra to last a full confrontation during the Kaguya arc. He had what 6 shot of Kamui shuriken, 1 Susanoo, 1 Kamui raikiri, 1 Kamui phasing and 1 kamui and he was already exhausted of his DMS chakra.

 you think he can Kamui shuriken more than 100 clones?



> Pretty sure they cost less chakra than BDs.


And pretty sure Naruto has more chakra than Kakashi. Also the Chakra is split equally with the clones.

which means for every clone Naruto has a shot of BD, considering how many split clone he had with Kaguya and he can still shoot a BD at that point. you seriously think Kakashi has what it takes to even face 20+ BD?





> And kakashi was able to overcome kaguyas gravity while naruto and sasuke were faceplanted.



I'm not even sure why people take this seriously when this shit is as close to bullshit as Sakura hitting Kaguya.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> kcm naruto and killer bee were getting rek by obito and the tailed beasts, until kakashi and gai showed up


already trashed this argument in the other thread


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Then Kakashi could always create more Kamui Shuriken


too bad he can't


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> which is a certified dumbass


yeah , too bad this dumbass made a fool bitch out of your kakashi in the bell test


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Again Kakashi isn't spamming that shit. He didn't even have enough chakra to last a full confrontation during the Kaguya arc. He had what 6 shot of Kamui shuriken, 1 Susanoo, 1 Kamui raikiri, 1 Kamui phasing and 1 kamui and he was already exhausted.
> 
> you think he can Kamui shuriken more than 100 clones?
> 
> ...



I don't recall Kakashi being exhausted by the end of the fight. Care to link?



cctr9 said:


> too bad he can't


According to?


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> According to?


kishi's manga , not his fans's manga 
feats > what the fans dream of


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 stay out of this , your boy sasuke was helpless against kaguya's fight


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2016)

Honestly, RSM Naruto wins and he doesn't need any extra Natural Energy to win. It's not an easy fight by any means, but Naruto can easily counter Kakashi's techniques and has much more stamina than Kakashi does, so he'd outlast Rikudou DMS Kakashi sooner or later. 

 Same would also apply to Sasuke, however. 

Kakashi's tactical prowess was what was emphasized as the most helpful against Kaguya, so his level of power wasn't really a major factor in Kaguya being sealed, but it was a factor.


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> don't recall Kakashi being exhausted by the end of the fight. Care to link?



I'm not talking about normal exhaustion..

This is how long his DMS last.. It disappear even before Kaguya was fully sealed.

so we will get something like this too

 no more sharingan

so we will get something like this too

this also happened right after they returned.

 he can't even stand..


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Honestly, RSM Naruto wins and he doesn't need any extra Natural Energy to win. It's not an easy fight by any means, but Naruto can easily counter Kakashi's techniques and has much more stamina than Kakashi does, so he'd outlast Rikudou DMS Kakashi sooner or later.
> 
> Same would also apply to Sasuke, however.
> 
> Kakashi's tactical prowess was what was emphasized as the most helpful against Kaguya, so his level of power wasn't really a major factor in Kaguya being sealed, but it was a factor.


my boy


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> my boy



 When did I underrate Naruto? The only reason I've really argued for Sasuke was to debate on how he's actually Naruto's rival and not just substantially weaker than him.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> When did I underrate Naruto? The only reason I've really argued for Sasuke was to debate on how he's actually Naruto's rival and not just substantially weaker than him.


did i say something wrong ?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> did i say something wrong ?



 No, I was just assuming you commented on my post because I wasn't "underrating" Naruto.


----------



## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

Hussain said:


> 1- I would love to know how he is going to be dead.


That was a joke, because the techniques have overhead. You missed my point, but I apparently have it cleared through with your buddies.



> 2- Who said that she needs to do the exact same thing like Kakashi?


Because if you think that Sakura ought to have the same recognition that Kakashi did, then her performance should scale up to his, provided the same circumstances. You can tie up Minato, and have him beaten by a raw genin. But that genin will not ever receive the level of respect that someone who can legitimately drill Minato underground—no-holds-barred. Kakashi planned the whole thing, and facilitated the other three. None in their sane minds would argue for Sakura, who did the job that Kakashi assigned her, and enabled her to do so.



> Also, you completely ignored my question. Was Kishi telling us that Sakura's punch is stronger than Sasuke's PS or not?


I imagine a powerful, focused attack can shatter something small, such as horn.



> and no, he did not "get kaguya in the position to get hit" Kaguya got attacked, and then she dodged Narudo and Sasuke which when Sakura smashed her to not let her escape.





> 3- No he did not. That was an entire team-effort. Without Sakura's punch, what Kakashi did wouldn't have meant jack-shit because Kaguya would have simply escaped. And the whole thing/battle was forced to get to that point about the "teamwork" otherwise, Kaguya would have trashed all of them.


He orchestrated the whole plan, and led the charge. Every advance move they made against Kaguya was backed by him using Kamui. Read, mate. 



shade0180 said:


> You know he used that with pein. clone fient stones.
> 
> and Obito in a different manner i mean sending a clone to Kamui land



Yeah, he ambushed Deva. Kakashi, unlike Deva, needs not worry about an ambush—

and Kamui does not work such that Naruto can slip in a clone-turned-pebble, without Kakashi's notice. 



> yes we are discussing things in the manga and the list I pointed out was  Kaguya's ability shown in the manga in the very same arc..



We are not having a conversation on Kaguya's abilities, however. Certainly not discussing whether or not, her defeat was 'forced'. . .



> Six path chakra don't give you unlimited uses of your jutsu. if it did then we won't have sauce and Nardo tiring at Vote 2


No, but grants substantial boost in the abilities, that Naruto and Sasuke practically turned from being fodders to be able give Madara serious trouble.


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2016)

Wait, if Naruto purposely allows his clones to get warped, doesn't that mean he can strike Kakashi from the other dimension? Seems like a good counter and apparently, from what I've heard, Sasuke can use clones as well.


----------



## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> and Kamui does not work such that Naruto can slip in a clone-turned-pebble, without Kakashi's notice.



Except it does, Because the manga provided it to us. remember that time with Obito where his mask hit by a kunai that slipped through Kamui without anyone noticing.





> No, but grants substantial boost in the abilities, that Naruto and Sasuke practically turned from being fodders to be able give Madara serious trouble.



It still doesn't let Kakashi demolish the guy who has more SPSM chakra than him.

Seriously you guys really think Kakashi can mow down more than 20 clones of RSM Naruto.

Also just to remind you guys Naruto's clone limit has been 1000 ever since the 1st chapter.


----------



## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> He'd be capable of performing just as well if not better, he'd just use different techniques.


wouldn't couldn't , no buts or ifs will cut it here


Isaiah13000 said:


> I never said she was low on chakra, I simply said she was weaker. Black Zetsu stated himself that Kaguya had just become a whole lot stronger when she faced Kakashi, and yet he blitz her and disables her right arm. Naruto was overpowering Kaguya on his own beforehand but he wasn't overpowering the stronger Kaguya.


no , you were implaying that kaguya was weaker because she was low on chakra , by using zetsu statement
again it wasn't a bitz , not even close to naruto's feat , blitzing her without a damn reaction , and cutting her arm off from a far distance , showering her with a barrage of 9 FRS , slamed her to a mountain , overpower her arm ......etc etc
far far more impressive than landing one hit on kaguya , far far more impressive


Isaiah13000 said:


> Then Kakashi could always create more Kamui Shuriken and hurl them at Naruto again


if he could've , he would , too bad his feats shows he can't
just like naruto's feats showed he couldn't make more gudodama 
just like madara's feat showed he couldn't make more than 1 limbo with one eye , or 5 limbo with 2 eyes 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Pretty sure they cost less chakra than BDs


good thing naruto has a crapton more chakra than kakashi , don't you agree ? 


Isaiah13000 said:


> He doesn't have to tell the difference which is why he just massacres them all, he can easily charge through them with Kamui Raikiri causing them to all keep poofing away. None of them are gonna be able to react in time let alone mount a defense or offense against him.


total fanfiction 
that's not how it goes 
once kakashi activates PS , *naruto will pull out his his avatar *
naruto's avatar > kakashi's susanoo in fire power
not to mention , *the avatar can make more avatars* , don't you agree ? 
and every avatar can use *TBBs* , can they not ?
TBBs counters his shuriken kamuis with ease
once kakashi's susanoo gets destroyed , with a shower of TBBs and TBBRS it's the end for him
clone feints + amazing speed and reactions + rikudou senjutsu sensing = GG kakashi
and lol @ kakashi massacring the clines with his raikiri , when every clone is armoured with rasengans and FRSs that wil hit him when he gets solid to attack , or once kakashi wraps a clone or two , kamui becomes as good as useless
soon or later kakashi is out of gas and breath , good game boys and girls


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Sasuke can use clones as well.


implaying sasuke actually needs clones


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## UchihaX28 (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> implaying sasuke actually needs clones



He doesn't need clones, I'm just saying he can, so both would be able to defeat Kakashi by attacking Kakashi from both dimensions.

Naruto's unpredictable and Sasuke's a great tactician, so both could have a Kage Bushin get warped by Kakashi's Kamui Shurikens without him realizing it and eventually get slammed by a Chidori or Rasengan.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He doesn't need clones, I'm just saying he can, so both would be able to defeat Kakashi by attacking Kakashi from both dimensions.
> 
> Naruto's unpredictable and Sasuke's a great tactician, so both could have a Kage Bushin get warped by Kakashi's Kamui Shurikens without him realizing it and eventually get slammed by a Chidori or Rasengan.


or he can just use Amanotejikara to hit him once kakashi gets solid when he attacks


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

Or send him to one of the other dimension's Kaguya had, like that Acid planet, or leave him there for dead.

  Kamui can't really escape out of Kaguya's dimension without enough chakra and a link.


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Except it does, Because the manga provided it to us. remember that time with Obito where his mask hit by a kunai that slipped through Kamui without anyone noticing.


Yes. Kakashi _consciously_ warped that kunai, in order to prevent it from impaling Naruto's skull. 



> It still doesn't let Kakashi demolish the guy who has more SPSM chakra than him.


My only concern is that Kakashi does not have to worry about his chakra reserves, like he normally _used to_.



> Seriously you guys really think Kakashi can mow down more than 20 clones of RSM Naruto.


. . . Does not seem much of a trouble.



> Also just to remind you guys Naruto's clone limit has been 1000 ever since the 1st chapter.


Yay. More slit throats, bashed skulls, crushed hearts transiently appearing in the Kamui Timespace. _"The ability to slip through things is really useful. . . Obito"._


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## shade0180 (May 5, 2016)

> My only concern is that Kakashi does not have to worry about his chakra reserves, like he normally _used to_.



except he does considering I already posted an exhausted Kakashi which was shown in Canon

 also the rest is just obvious wanking.


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## Hasan (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> except he does considering I already posted an exhausted Kakashi which was shown in Canon


Do post from #689, while he still uses the Six Paths chakra and complains about its detrimental effects.



> also the rest is just obvious wanking.


Yes. It appears to you as such, because you seem to have not accounted for the fact that none of the Naruto's _hurr durr gazillion variants of Rasengan and Bijuudama_ are actually effective against Kamui.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 5, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> I'm not talking about normal exhaustion..
> 
> This is how long his DMS last.. It disappear even before Kaguya was fully sealed.
> 
> ...



Alright, I concede, he'd get exhausted too fast before he could do much. 



cctr9 said:


> wouldn't couldn't , no buts or ifs will cut it here
> 
> no , you were implaying that kaguya was weaker because she was low on chakra , by using zetsu statement
> again it wasn't a bitz , not even close to naruto's feat , blitzing her without a damn reaction , and cutting her arm off from a far distance , showering her with a barrage of 9 FRS , slamed her to a mountain , overpower her arm ......etc etc
> ...



Well, DMS Kakashi is still above SPSM Naruto normally in terms of speed and reflexes, but if Naruto enters Bijuu Mode and amps himself up with a shitton of NE as well as uses all of the Bijuu's special abilities then Kakashi winning isn't really plausible anymore... I concede my argument. I kind of forgot about all of the abilities that Rikudou Naruto has, I was only thinking in terms of raw speed and reflexes. Naruto is going to have an extremely hard time, but he'd win in the end.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Well, DMS Kakashi is still above SPSM Naruto normally in terms of speed and reflexes,


no , he is not lol


Isaiah13000 said:


> but if Naruto enters Bijuu Mode and amps himself up with a shitton of NE as well as uses all of the Bijuu's special abilities then Kakashi winning isn't really plausible anymore...


no man he doesn't need this , he doesn't need more raw power / fire power to beat kakashi , his fire power is already enuff
his reactions and shunshins and rikudou senjutsu sensing and KB are the X factor 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Naruto is going to have an extremely hard time, but he'd win in the end.


pfff , more like a mid diff fight


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## ARGUS (May 5, 2016)

Can't believe how long this thread is 






Hasan said:


> Kakashi can specify the size of barrier space at will, and—


No he can't.
He has 4 shurikens and the kamui warp is the same size of those shurikens.

As for Kakashi making a larger long range kamui warp. Well that's irrelevant because he can't catch a s single Narutos clone in that.
Making a bigger warp is only taxing him more chakra and leaving him vulnerable for longer periods of time since he can't focus on multiple entities at once



> You can 'potentially' sense (thus dodge) Kamui, if your body is in one piece. Given Kakashi's mastery as shown during the war, I believe that's an improbable scenario. Only this time around, you have another Mangekyou completing the set, thus double the speed. . . and Six Paths chakra channeling through.


With RSM Narutos heightened reflexes that surpass even that of Juubi Jins, I'm going to say this with absolute certainty that kamui is lol dodged shit diff. Especially when naruto dodged kaguyas portal and when the slower Jin Madara said that his limbo is much faster than TSB which are around the same echelon as kamui

Six paths chakra doesn't change the speed of kamui warp. That's fanfic.
Stronger chakra strengthens the jutsu, doesn't change its properties
Just how Amaterasus speed is unchanged from six paths chakra




> They are quite useful against your proposed counters that Naruto has against the complete Susano'o, in your succeeding statement.



No they are not.
RSM naruto is *far more mobile* than Kaguya in her berserk stage

As it stands the speed of kamui shuriken is nowhere near sufficient enough to land on naruto

Worst case scenario. Naruto tosses a TSB at it and the shuriken disappear by warping them away

So No. They're non factor



> The complete Susano'o is capable of flight, and Kakashi's was shown to be remarkably fast as well.


"Lol flight" isn't going to let Kakashi evade Narutos nukes just how it didn't let Sasuke evade them

Especially when naruto can run up and toss them point blank
Then there's the AOE of those nukes. Naruto doesn't even need to aim it head on for PS to get caught

Naruto tosses casual 6 BDRS and PS gets mopped off the face of the earth



> Nah. Kakashi storms through the clones, cutting through them. . . *and fortunately Naruto is a certified idiot, so we will get something like this too*.


Certified idiot who blitzed Kaguya. Absorbed the entire worlds nature energy. Matched kaguyas vacuum fists for a brief encounter and evaded her portal point blank

Feats that far surpass kakashis

And No. Kakashi can't swarm through those clones. Nor is your justification of calling Naruto an idiot any valid.

Kakashi tries to attack and chances are that the man who is much faster than him and has him outnumbered *by far* would strike and finish him off



> Your case only works, if Kakashi has his hands and feet tied; is not allowed to use any of his techniques; and asked to just. . . stand there. All while Naruto senses and dodges Kamui shots never fired and, shurikens never thrown; the regular Susano'o form redefined as complete one; and the passive ability to phase through attacks suddenly non-functional.


Yeah no. I provided all of Narutos counters to kamui and PS and how he counters all of kakashis moveset.
And it still stands.

-- kamui can't get through multiple clones at once. Not when naruto can scatter Kakaahi with them. If Kakashi attempts to warp one, he leaves himself wide open for the other 10-100 clones to blitz with a Rasengan

-- RSM Narutos speed >>>>>> kamui warps. So it gets dodged *every single time*

-- lol I have clearly talked about shurikens counter. So in my scenario Kakashi tosses them. But not My fault if he fails

-- PS lacks the offense to even scratch RSM avatar. And it lacks the defense to tank BDRS/TBB barrages





> It is, if chakra level is an issue. Unfortunately for you, it is not. Two, Kakashi is not an idiot to fall prey to the counter-measure he himself came up with. He is quite fond of decapitation and severing limbs. That will do.


Chakra level is clearly an issue since Kakashis DMS is not his. It's obitos and he can only stay in his head for A certain amount of time.
He'll be lucky to go past 5-10 mins MAX

Lol at your point on "severing limbs"
Kakashi knowing about his or Narutos moveset doesn't change the fact that anything he dishes out gets hard countered.

-- he can't distinguish between clones

-- he can't catch them all.

-- and he can't evade or phase through naruto during the time. He's solid

Naruto mid diffs At MaX


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Can't believe how long this thread is


remember that time when you told me DMS kakashi was the most overrated dude here ?
and i was like '' nah there are more overrated people than him '' ?
i just wanna say i'm sorry


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## ARGUS (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> remember that time when you told me DMS kakashi was the most overrated dude here ?
> and i was like '' nah there are more overrated people than him '' ?
> i just wanna say i'm sorry


Yeh 
Kamui in general is seriously wanked


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

My boy Kakashi holding out a vs. RSM Naruto thread for 4 pages.   



ARGUS said:


> Yeh
> Kamui in general is seriously wanked



Kishi does do what he does best in the manga


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

>4 pages
kek

anyway the only real way Naruto wins this is with knowledge tbh. Kakashi has enough stamina for a short battle that would push Naruto but clones can easily fuck Kakashi over if Naruto has knowledge and DMS Kakashi hasnt shown or been implied to have enough stamina for an extended battle with someone like RSM Naruto.


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> been implied to have enough stamina for an extended battle with someone like RSM Naruto.


Dms Kakashi lasted like 2-3 chapters.

688 page 6 - 690 page 8
688 is where Obito talked to him
689 ~ is basically his moment
690 we can see him without a sharingan at a panel here.

the list of skill he had used..

1 Susanoo - Saving Sakura
3 Kamui Shuriken - Kaguya chakra arm he wasn't even the target
1 phasing - Avoiding ash bone
1 kamui raikiri - Getting a hit in Kaguya
1 Kamui - Saving Sauce.

691 we saw him dropping down next to Sakura.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Dms Kakashi lasted like 2-3 chapters.
> 
> 688 page 6 - 690 page 8
> 688 is where Obito talked to him
> ...


well he wasnt tired till after Obito left. He wasnt panting after PS got destroyed or all the other shit so his DMS stamina is reliant on Obitos ghost. Still wouldnt give it any stamina to compete with RSM Naruto for a while.

also you just agreed with me since i said it _hasnt_ been shown or implied he has amazing stamina like RSM Naruto


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

Yea I am just elaborating how limited he has been as far as DMS goes.

 Seriously having knowledge or not. It's pretty much bullshit to claim he can even face 20+ or more Non-holding back RSM clones..


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Yea I am just elaborating how limited he has been as far as DMS goes.
> 
> Seriously having knowledge or not. It's pretty much bullshit to claim he can even face 20+ or more Non-holding back RSM clones..


I meant more along the lines that without knowledge the possibility of Kakashi sniping him greatly increases since Naruto probably wont use clones immediately. Even if he does he can still be sniped till he actually blends in with them. Either that or Kakashi goes for Kamui Raikiri right away while Naruto tries to use clones and cuts his head off before he hides among them which could happen.


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> since Naruto probably wont use clones immediately.



This is practically Naruto's first IC move.


OneSimpleAnime said:


> ven if he does he can still be sniped till he actually blends in with them


Naruto literally blends in the moment he use the KB as shown multiple times. You can even count on your hand the moment he never did it 




OneSimpleAnime said:


> Either that or Kakashi goes for Kamui Raikiri right away while Naruto tries to use clones and cuts his head off



Kakashi can't blitz Naruto before he start with the clone

 basically what you are saying is naruto would stand still and let Kakashi have the first shot to win this..


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> This is practically Naruto's first IC move.
> 
> Naruto literally blends in the moment he use the KB as shown multiple times. You can even count on your hand the moment he never did it


Well Naruto isnt IC in this, hes bloodlusted. Im not sure how he blends in once he uses clones though, its not like he splits, he stays in the same spot and clones are made around him, so as long as someone focuses on that then Naruto needs to have his clones summoned literally right next to and surrounding himself, which hasnt been shown in a while.


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

Blood lusted doesn't mean they are turned into a moron.

Bloodlusted just means they are out to kill. that's all. let say you have Gon and a kid fighting, being blood lusted would make him not hesitate to kill the kid, he would still use all the strategy he would normally use. As for IC it is obvious Gon won't kill that kid without any good reason.





> he stays in the same spot and clones are made around him,



that really isn't the case since chapter 1.there are cases that does that happen but most of the time it doesn't/ Also Naruto when using KB get a smoke screen


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

kakashi can't use kamui before naruto sense it with his rikudou senjutsu sensing 
oh and like i stated before , SOM : IC going for the kill


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## Zensuki (May 6, 2016)

DMS Kakashi spamming that Kamui 
GG Naruto

Oh forgot that it doesn't last long. GG Kakashi


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> My boy Kakashi holding out a vs. RSM Naruto thread for 4 pages.



They are basing their wank on Sasuke's pitiful performance when Kishi did that just to say "teamwork is important"  

I wonder why Kakashi's wankers do not consider the new kages on the same level as adult Sasuke...


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## Zensuki (May 6, 2016)

So you made another troll thread because you were butthurt from Kakashi fans 
Damn, you Kakashi fans have got the Nardo fans pressed

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> So you made another troll thread because you were butthurt from Kakashi fans
> Damn, you Kakashi fans have got the Nardo fans pressed


No, it just to give the other characters what they deserve as well. You can't have a character doing something and you take it as a proof of his/her level. But if other characters do impressive shits you just ignore it and act as if it never happened.



But I did not expect from you to understand the bigger thing anyway, so don't worry about me getting disappointed.


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Zensuki said:


> So you made another troll thread because you were butthurt from Kakashi fans
> Damn, you Kakashi fans have got the Nardo fans pressed


no , it's just another day , another thread 
however i do know who's the butthurt salty fanbase , who still bitching about their beloved character who couldn't beat a holding back exhausted non serious character even when he had a fuckload of asspulls and help 
your post confirms you are just an insufferable illiterate tard who couldn't objectively read a simple piece of fiction even if it were to save his life

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Kakashi outperformed both Naruto and Sasuke by far. . Especially Sasuke, who gets utterly clowned by a weaker version of Kaguya than the one Kakashi could keep up with, counter in her giant form and S/T technique, defend from, attack and wound. Naruto did definitely better than Sasuke, a lot better, but still not as good as Kakashi did.

Kakashi blitzed Kaguya's  version. While Naruto blitzed Kaguya's previous version (before she absorbed chakra from the IT victims to power up herself), and he also could blitz Kaguya only when she was very low on chakra, hence less powerful than her normal state. While Kakashi could struck Kaguya reactionless when she was fresh again, and even more powerful than before. Kishimoto went so far to underline how Kaguya  her speed and power even better than before and to hype  with Kamui Raikiri in the databook, she simply got it because Kakashi's thrust was too fast and struck her reactionless. Because she doesn't react at all to Kakashi. She simply notes,  Kakashi dashes against her, that he avoided her bone-projectiles by phasing through them.  Kakashi moves, there's no reaction from Kaguya. Out that the scream she launches after Kakashi wounds her, and Black Zetsu screaming too, after he hit her.

Naruto's nukes are utterly useless against Kakashi's Kamui phasing, no matter how powerful they are. Plus Kakashi can simply warp them away or warp himself in the other dimension.

Nothing is getting loldodged here, sadly. Naruto could barely dodge Kaguya's , which .

Clones are literally useless. Naruto's clones were fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms and even Naruto himself was in trouble along with Sasuke, guess what , and Kakashi's Kamui Shuriken were  than the chakra arms too and , and Kakashi can spam four of them in a single row. Kakashi trashes Naruto's clone army with PS slashes and Kamui Shuriken (basically: Naruto's clones < Kaguya's chakra arms < Kakashi's PS and Kamui Shuriken). Naruto will need to fight in his avatar, which will be a very easy target for Kakashi to use long range Kamui, or to warp in and use Kamui Raikiri.

Kakashi wouldn't just clown Naruto like he would do to Sasuke, but he is too haxxed for Naruto and will come out as the victor. After all, Naruto's skillset is more or less the same he had when, with KCM and BM, he fought Obito (he is immensely more powerful and with more powerful nukes, obviously, but my point is that he still has the same powers more or less: great speed, a lot of chakra, nukes, clones): if he couldn't overcome Obito who didn't have raw power but only the defensive version of Kamui, just gaining more power (even if a shitload of more power) won't help him in defeating Kakashi, who has both defensive and offensive powers of Kamui, plus also raw power to his side. The argument is easy: Kamui hax > raw power. Defensive Kamui hax > raw power. Defensive + offensive Kamui hax + also raw power > a shitload of more raw power.



Isaiah13000 said:


> No not really, Naruto did a good job at dealing with her but his performance isn't greater than Kakashi's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi saved Sakura's life when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, got rid of Kaguya's chakra arms when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, incapacitated Kaguya when Naruto and Sasuke couldn't, saved Naruto's life by warping away Kaguya's bone before it hit him, and allowed Sakura to punch her in the first place as she leaped out of his Susanoo. If you think Kakashi and Sakura's actions are equivalent then you're trolling.
> 
> Please stop making annoying bullshit comparisons. Kakashi actually fought a stronger version of Kaguya than Naruto and Sasuke and ended up incapacitating her so that she could be killed. That Suna fodder did utterly jackshit and just sealed him away after he was defeated by Naruto.





Isaiah13000 said:


> Raikir17 basically wrote an entire essay explaining how powerful DMS Kakashi was, that essay was enough to convince me DMS Kakashi > Rinnegan Sasuke but DMS Kakashi >= SPSM Naruto. His points were all pretty solid, not sure how his whole argument could be shut down.





Isaiah13000 said:


> Just because someone's account is named after their favorite character and they have them as their avi doesn't mean they're a fanboy. Shinobi no Kami has proven himself to be a fanboy time and time again; as for Raikiri19, I don't know enough about him to judge. But his essay about DMS Kakashi > Rinnegan Sasuke was pretty accurate.



Thank you man, I'm happy than there are at least people who aren't biased and who simply try to understand what happened in the manga. As you can see, the denial is strong, and the counter-arguments are simply calling me biased because I have a Kakashi avatar (and so what... I can like Kakashi or not, that isn't changing manga panels I post to support my argument, again, manga panels, not my theories or personal opinions) or pure and pathetic trolling, or saying "it can't be because even if the manga clearly shows, it still can't be because I don't want to". But the butthurt is funny, actually. A fanboy would say for example that MS Kakashi is >>> Rinnegan Sasuke. Which is crazy. Or that EMS Madara >>> Rikudo Naruto. Which is crazy again. Showing how DMS Kakashi is clearly above Sasuke and Naruto, is nothing more than linking events that Kishimoto did draw in his manga.


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> They are basing their wank on Sasuke's pitiful performance when Kishi did that just to say "teamwork is important"
> 
> I wonder why Kakashi's wankers do not consider the new kages on the same level as adult Sasuke...



That's because the Kurotsochi, Chojuro, Darui, and Gaara needed help from Sasuke around all corners to take down Kinshiki/Momoshiki and they couldn't hold down Kinshiki after Sasuke left them.

Meanwhile, DMS Kakashi severed Kaguya's right arm, something not even Sasuke could do with PS. He also closed a dimensional hole faster than Ash Bones could get out from at least 10 meters away, a warp feat that surpasses Sasuke's own reactions and S/T technique reaction IMO.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

And he is back using that Bullshit response.



- There was no keeping up that happened. He attack an arm that wasn't moving toward him
- there was no blitz that happened, Kaguya reacted to him
- Kakashi didn't avoid shit He was even surprise that went through him


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> That's because the Kurotsochi, Chojuro, Darui, and Gaara needed help from Sasuke around all corners to take down Kinshiki/Momoshiki and they couldn't hold down Kinshiki after Sasuke left them.
> 
> Meanwhile, DMS Kakashi severed Kaguya's right arm, something not even Sasuke could do with PS. He also closed a dimensional hole faster than Ash Bones could get out from at least 10 meters away, a warp feat that surpasses Sasuke's own reactions and S/T technique reaction IMO.



- No, Sasuke came at 1 point only with Kuro and Choj when Kin tried to jump or something. And then he was not there much they were keeping up and fighting him decently. Other Kages, like the Hokages, the previous 5 kages were getting stomped from Asspulldara even tho he is much weaker than Kinshiki, and they did not even put a fight (regarding the Hokages at least as soon as Asspulldara came to life again)

- Yes, and Sakura destroy her horn. Something Sasuke couldn't do even with a direct hit from his PS either. So, why does that make Kakashi on their level, but nor Sakura?

- how did you get that the portal thing is fast to begin with? In Bolt's movie, Sasuke opened one and the scientists were fast enough
to enter it, was that a proof that they are way too fast? 

And on the same note, Narudo was easily able to dodge it as well. However, he did not dodge
Sasuke's Kawarimi at the VOTE, how do you explain that?


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi outperformed both Naruto and Sasuke by far


nonsense 
naruto blitzed her from a far distance with no reaction what so ever 
kakashi simply land a hit on her from a short distance when she reacted to him twice 
naruto overpowered her chakra arms 
bullied her with his boil release 
slamed her to a mountain 
showered her with a barrage of 9 rasenshurikens with no reaction whatsoever , more impressive than landing 4 shuriken kamuis on her chakra arms 
naruto didnt even use his mech , while kakashi abused his susanoo 
> says kakashi performed better than naruto 


Raikiri19 said:


> .


yeah , see above 


Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi blitzed Kaguya's  version.


wasn't a blitz , and 99.99 % of the users here knows it 


Raikiri19 said:


> While Naruto blitzed Kaguya's previous version


that's the only blitz that happened in the fight , and naruto did it froma far distance , with no reactions from her whatsoever 
he also blitzed her , with his 9 rasenshurikens , something kakashi can't even dream of doing in his wildest dreams 


Raikiri19 said:


> Naruto's nukes are utterly useless against Kakashi


his nukes were useful against kaguya , but they won't be against kakashi LOL 


Raikiri19 said:


> Plus Kakashi can simply warp them away or warp himself in the other dimension.


didn't know kakashi was this chakra freak 
plus he can wrap himself , but he can't wrap his susanoo you know 


Raikiri19 said:


> Nothing is getting loldodged here, sadly. Naruto could barely dodge Kaguya's , which .


LOL can you stop , he dodge her ST without the need of his own ST , even zetsu was impressed with his reactions 
> says he barely reacted 
and unlike naruto , kaguya's ST wasn't directed at kakashi 
and no , his kamui didn't outsped kaguya's ST , it outsped her ash bone , the thing that happened after the ST , not the ST itself 
also naruto reacted to sasuke's ST jutsu 
*instant teleport >>> kamui* no matter how you look at it 
kamui couldn't even outsped a gudodama 


Raikiri19 said:


> Clones are literally useless.





Raikiri19 said:


> Clones are literally useless. Naruto's clones were fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms and even Naruto himself was in trouble along with Sasuke, guess what , and Kakashi's Kamui Shuriken were  than the chakra arms too and , and Kakashi can spam four of them in a single row. Kakashi trashes Naruto's clone army with PS slashes and Kamui Shuriken (basically: Naruto's clones < Kaguya's chakra arms < Kakashi's PS and Kamui Shuriken). Naruto will need to fight in his avatar, which will be a very easy target for Kakashi to use long range Kamui, or to warp in and use Kamui Raikiri.


utter BS 
when kakashi pulls out his susanoo , *naruto won't be using clones , he will pull out his avatar*
naruto's avatar >>>> kakashi's susnoo in firepower 
his lol shuriken kamui are destroyed with a barrage of TBBs 
and the avatar can use other avatars as we saw against sasuke 
chances that kakashi susnoo gets nuked with a barrage of TBBs are much much much bigger than naruto getting hit with just 4 shurikens 
once kakashi's susanoo gets destroyed it's the end for kakashi
sensing + clone feints means GG kakashi 
if he wraps clones , his kamui is as good as useless , naruto will be able to attack him from both sides 
once kakashi gets solid when he attacks , he gets crushed with rasengan or FRS variants 
if he doesn't wrap the clones , he gets outlasted and killed ; he can't tell the clones from the real one 
naruto's stamina and chakra >>> kakashi's 
once kakashi is out of breath and gas , it's over


Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi wouldn't just clown Naruto like he would do to Sasuke, but he is too haxxed for Naruto and will come out as the victor.





Raikiri19 said:


> I'm happy than there are at least people who aren't biased


the irony LOL 


Raikiri19 said:


> Showing how DMS Kakashi is clearly above Sasuke and Naruto, is nothing more than linking events that Kishimoto did draw in his manga.


too bad 99.99 % of the posters here don't see this


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Yes, and Sakura destroy her horn. Something Sasuke couldn't do even with a direct hit from his PS either. So, why does that make Kakashi on their level, but nor Sakura?



I guess that what Sakura did (punching Kaguya when she was already wounded by Kakashi and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke) is the just the same exact thing that:

1) Casually outspeeding Kaguya's chakra arms (that Naruto and Sasuke called "very fast") with PS, and saving Sakura from them, faster than everything Sasuke and Naruto could do.

*Spoiler*: __ 








2) Negging Kaguya's giant form by negging her chakra arms with Kamui used through PS with . Here Kakashi also showed that his Kamui Shuriken are faster than Kaguya's chakra arms (that attacked the PS before it launched the Kamui Shuriken, which still traveled much faster than the chakra arms, hitting them before they could even approach the PS), with either one creating a Kamui warp as big as the freaking PS itself. And four of them can be launched together every time.

*Spoiler*: __ 







3) Taking the lead of Team 7 by both creating the strategy and going to execute it himself, standing right in front of his students who are behind him. Naruto after witnessing Kakashi's PS in action calls Kakashi more awesome than Rinnegan Sasuke. Since I don't really think Naruto cares so much about the PS's design, I guess he is referring to power.

*Spoiler*: __ 







4) Having a 1 vs 1 against Kaguya (a Kaguya who was stronger than ever, stronger than before, since she furtherly powered up herself by absorbing a lot of chakra from the people under the IT), with no one else involved, where Kaguya attacked him, he managed to perfectly defend himself with Kamui phasing even if his PS was destroyed, and was able even to successfully counterattack the Chakra Goddess, dashing against her with  and managing to struck her reactionless, heavily wounding her (something that Sakura painfully failed to do with his Amenotejikara + Chidori). No other character in the manga showed feats to be able to go 1 vs 1 directly against Kaguya like that, defending himself/herself from Kaguya and counterattacking and wounding her so swiftly. No one.

*Spoiler*: __ 








5) Successfully countering Kaguya's S/T (which was too fast for Sasuke to do anything and pressured even Naruto) with his long range Kamui, by outspeeding it and warping it away before her S/T portal could even complete: that saved Naruto's life from a bone-projectile which was going to be teleported right on his face point blank.

*Spoiler*: __ 







6) Saving Sakura's life again when she was free falling after the successful Rikudo Chibaku Tensei on Kaguya.​
Sasuke fought Kaguya (and did so shitty). Naruto fought Kaguya (and did pretty decently). Kakashi fought Kaguya (and did exceptionally: : they were losing before Kakashi entered the fray, ). Sakura didn't fought Kaguya, she would be oneshotted with *a casual fart* from Kaguya: characters magnitudes more powerful than she is, would be still oneshotted by a fart from Kaguya. Sakura wouldn't even be alive if Kakashi didn't save and protect her, lol. Trying to downplay Kakashi's feats with this argument is so... nonsensical, and pathetic. Like your typical trolling against Kakashi, Itachi, Madara and Hashirama, to favour Jiraiya, Naruto and Minato.

Also, Kaguya's S/T portals with Yomotsu Hirasaka are hella fast, your denial is impressive and unbelievable. Sasuke's technique is different, it opens a dimensional hole that stays for some seconds, people can freely jumps in or out that, while Kaguya opens a portal to teleport herself or people or things. It's the same S/T that Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke couldn't react to *(1)(2)* and Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto reacted and dodged only barely, that's even if they both already witnessed it, being already unable to react to its speed *(3)(4)*. That S/T (too fast for Sasuke and nearly too fast for Naruto) was completely outspeeded by Kakashi's long range Kamui, which teleported away the portal itself before it could complete its working, as if it was slow motion lol.


----------



## Itachi san88 (May 6, 2016)

> Kamui in general is seriously *wanked*


This.

Naruto wins low/mid diff.


----------



## Max Thunder (May 6, 2016)

This is ridiculous


Raikiri19 said:


> I guess that what Sakura did (punching Kaguya when she was already wounded by Kakashi and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke) is the just the same exact thing that:
> 
> 1) Casually outspeeding Kaguya's chakra arms (that Naruto and Sasuke called "very fast") with PS, and saving Sakura from them, faster than everything Sasuke and Naruto could do.
> 
> ...




How many times must you use these panels?

I think you're the only person here to be delusional enough to believe that nonsense.

Everything Kakashi did was situational. Not to mention, how is saving Sakura at the end a feat? 

Shows how much reaching you're doing really lol


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi outperformed both Naruto and Sasuke by far. . Especially Sasuke, who gets utterly clowned by a weaker version of Kaguya than the one Kakashi could keep up with, counter in her giant form and S/T technique, defend from, attack and wound. Naruto did definitely better than Sasuke, a lot better, but still not as good as Kakashi did.
> 
> Kakashi blitzed Kaguya's  version. While Naruto blitzed Kaguya's previous version (before she absorbed chakra from the IT victims to power up herself), and he also could blitz Kaguya only when she was very low on chakra, hence less powerful than her normal state. While Kakashi could struck Kaguya reactionless when she was fresh again, and even more powerful than before. Kishimoto went so far to underline how Kaguya  her speed and power even better than before and to hype  with Kamui Raikiri in the databook, she simply got it because Kakashi's thrust was too fast and struck her reactionless. Because she doesn't react at all to Kakashi. She simply notes,  Kakashi dashes against her, that he avoided her bone-projectiles by phasing through them.  Kakashi moves, there's no reaction from Kaguya. Out that the scream she launches after Kakashi wounds her, and Black Zetsu screaming too, after he hit her.
> 
> ...



Great post as usual but I wouldn't even bother arguing anymore against some of these blinded naruto fanboys that have the need to create bait threads and give piss poor arguments to feel better about themselves. *Probably mad that kakashi is a superior character too.*

I was gonna bring up a similar argument to one of your points as well.

This battle is no different than kcm naruto vs obito. Even with much superior power, he got his shit wrecked, and in this battle naruto is amped up but there is no significant change of his hax and abilities while kakashi is amped up on the same level( minus stamina of course) but has significantly more hax and firepower than obito ever did, and phasing itself, which is the mother of all defensive abilities.

Kakashi has always been the ninja that does more with less, and I can't see him not beating naruto. Being tactically superior, and having significantly more hax.

It's already proven that kakashi won't be lacking in the speed, reactions and firepower department,( which he showed in a single chapter that he performed better than naruto and sasuke did during the whole battle) but he has better tactics and defense than naruto does.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

> [="Raikiri19, post: 55593201, member: 229210"]I guess that what Sakura did (punching Kaguya when she was already wounded by Kakashi and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke) is the just the same exact thing that:


Yeah because when Kakashi was there, Kaguya hadn't just use tons of chakra against Narudo and sasuke, right? 



> 1) Casually outspeeding Kaguya's chakra arms (that Naruto and Sasuke called "very fast") with PS, and saving Sakura from them, faster than everything Sasuke and Naruto could do.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Narudo did not even move to say "faster than anything they could do" and sasuke's eye has a limited
ranged and a cool-down. Why is this a stupid argument you ask? Because we have seen the same thing
before with ino controlling Obito to save Choji, to which Narudo literally said "wow, you are faster than me"
but I wonder if she would even have the time to raise her arm in a fight against Narudo. lol

And I am not sure what does Kakashi's statement prove exactly. 




> 2) Negging Kaguya's giant form by negging her chakra arms with Kamui used through PS with . Here Kakashi also showed that his Kamui Shuriken are faster than Kaguya's chakra arms (that attacked the PS before it launched the Kamui Shuriken, which still traveled much faster than the chakra arms, hitting them before they could even approach the PS), with either one creating a Kamui warp as big as the freaking PS itself. And four of them can be launched together every time.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __




lol. The chakra arms were heading towards T7, and the Shurkin were heading towards the arms. That does
not prove which are faster or not. It's like a guy running into a speeding car that is moving towards him. That
does not mean the guy is as fast the car. They are simply running in opposite direction.




> 3) Taking the lead of Team 7 by both creating the strategy and going to execute it himself, standing right in front of his students who are behind him. Naruto after witnessing Kakashi's PS in action calls Kakashi more awesome than Rinnegan Sasuke. Since I don't really think Naruto cares so much about the PS's design, I guess he is referring to power.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



You don't say.  he is their teacher, taking the leak is expected. Just like how he became the Hokage before Narudo, which was not because he is stronger than him, but because Narudo's supposed lack or experience.

Also "Awesome" has nothing to do with power. 
This is reaching at its finest.

Narudo also said that Obito is awesome/coolest was that meant like he is the strongest? 





> 4) Having a 1 vs 1 against Kaguya (a Kaguya who was stronger than ever, stronger than before, since she furtherly powered up herself by absorbing a lot of chakra from the people under the IT), with no one else involved, where Kaguya attacked him, he managed to perfectly defend himself with Kamui phasing even if his PS was destroyed, and was able even to successfully counterattack the Chakra Goddess, dashing against her with  and managing to struck her reactionless, heavily wounding her (something that Sakura painfully failed to do with his Amenotejikara + Chidori). No other character in the manga showed feats to be able to go 1 vs 1 directly against Kaguya like that, defending himself/herself from Kaguya and counterattacking and wounding her so swiftly. No one.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __




And?
1- Bolt did damage (and killed Momoshiki)
2- Sakura did hit and damage Kaguya
3- Shin trolled both Narudo and Sasuke
4- Sakura defeated Shin
5- Himawari defeated Narudo
6- Tobirama hit JJ Obito several times
7- SM Narudo effected JJ Obito when SM Hashirama couldn't

and so on and so forth. Kakashi hitting a far stronger character than him is not something unheared of.
Likewise, Minato defeating Obito with Kamui does not mean he is stronger than BM Narudo, B, Gui and Kakashi at the same time, does it? 



> 5) Successfully countering Kaguya's S/T (which was too fast for Sasuke to do anything and pressured even Naruto) with his long range Kamui, by outspeeding it and warping it away before her S/T portal could even complete: that saved Naruto's life from a bone-projectile which was going to be teleported right on his face point blank.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



> Totally ignroing that She used it from Sasuke's back and took him off-guard. 
It was not because it's "too fast" it was because it's a surprise attack. Same Narudo who dodge that easily
couldn't dodge Sasuke's Kawarimi as eaily.




> 6) Saving Sakura's life again when she was free falling after the successful Rikudo Chibaku Tensei on Kaguya.




Not sure how is that releavent. Minato saved the entire Ninja world from getting their ass kicked by the Juubi's TBB. Has anyone taken that as a proof that he is stronger than the entire SA? 
[/SPOILER]​


> Sasuke fought Kaguya (and did so shitty). Naruto fought Kaguya (and did pretty decently). Kakashi fought Kaguya (and did exceptionally: : they were losing before Kakashi entered the fray, ). Sakura didn't fought Kaguya, she would be oneshotted with *a casual fart* from Kaguya: characters magnitudes more powerful than she is, would be still oneshotted by a fart from Kaguya. Sakura wouldn't even be alive if Kakashi didn't save and protect her, lol. Trying to downplay Kakashi's feats with this argument is so... nonsensical, and pathetic. Like your typical trolling against Kakashi, Itachi, Madara and Hashirama, to favour Jiraiya, Naruto and Minato.


Rubbish. 

-Even the feat that everyone is riding Kakashi's dick for (hitting her arm), Narudo completely chopped it off.
-They weren't losing. Narudo was handling her perfectly fin by himself. Stop with the nonsense already. 




> Also, Kaguya's S/T portals with Yomotsu Hirasaka are hella fast, your denial is impressive and unbelievable. Sasuke's technique is different, it opens a dimensional hole that stays for some seconds, people can freely jumps in or out that, while Kaguya opens a portal to teleport herself or people or things. It's the same S/T that Rinnegan Rikudo Sasuke couldn't react to *(1)(2)* and Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto reacted and dodged only barely, that's even if they both already witnessed it, being already unable to react to its speed *(3)(4)*. That S/T (too fast for Sasuke and nearly too fast for Naruto) was completely outspeeded by Kakashi's long range Kamui, which teleported away the portal itself before it could complete its working, as if it was slow motion lol


No, your wank IS impressive. Where has her portal shown to be too fast exactly?

- Lol, Sasuke's stays for some seconds, but Kaguya's doesn't? 

- You are still bring that BS about Sasuke? She took him from behind, it's not the same thing when someone tries to attack you right in front of your face. Stop bringing retarded examples.

and your second example is even dumber than the first. Narudo and Sasuke were paralyzed, not that the couldn't react because it was fast. [/spoiler]

Edit:

Is someone editing this post or something? I don't remember putting those spoilers?


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## Kai (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> No other character in the manga showed feats to be able to go 1 vs 1 directly against Kaguya like that, defending himself/herself from Kaguya and counterattacking and wounding her so swiftly. No one.​





And Kakashi's Complete Body Susanoo got one-shotted. All he needed was right eye's phasing power and Kamui Raikiri. Something that took Kaguya off guard, just as Obito did to Madara to steal bijuu chakras.


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## ARGUS (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> #ARGUS ck


I said that in a different thread
 And that person clearly has zero counters to kamui which is why I Dias that 

Kamui wank would be like saying that juunito or 8th gate guy  gets one shotted by kamui


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

The funny thing is Narudo did not even use his Kurama avatar against Kaguya. 
Nor did he use his SM at its highest-level (taking all the chakra energy from the planet)
It's stupid thread like this one that should be closed, @Kai. 
Narudo fodderstomps the living shit out Kakashi that it's not even funny.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> fanboys





Crimson Flam3s said:


> give piss poor arguments





Crimson Flam3s said:


> Probably mad that kakashi is a superior character too.


the irony 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> I was gonna bring up a similar argument to one of your points as well.


i'm sure you were


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> zero counters to kamui


clones + sensing + smoke bombs + dust cloud says hi


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

Yea close this. Naruto wins.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi outperformed both Naruto and Sasuke by far. . Especially Sasuke, who gets utterly clowned by a weaker version of Kaguya than the one Kakashi could keep up with, counter in her giant form and S/T technique, defend from, attack and wound. Naruto did definitely better than Sasuke, a lot better, but still not as good as Kakashi did.
> 
> Kakashi blitzed Kaguya's  version. While Naruto blitzed Kaguya's previous version (before she absorbed chakra from the IT victims to power up herself), and he also could blitz Kaguya only when she was very low on chakra, hence less powerful than her normal state. While Kakashi could struck Kaguya reactionless when she was fresh again, and even more powerful than before. Kishimoto went so far to underline how Kaguya  her speed and power even better than before and to hype  with Kamui Raikiri in the databook, she simply got it because Kakashi's thrust was too fast and struck her reactionless. Because she doesn't react at all to Kakashi. She simply notes,  Kakashi dashes against her, that he avoided her bone-projectiles by phasing through them.  Kakashi moves, there's no reaction from Kaguya. Out that the scream she launches after Kakashi wounds her, and Black Zetsu screaming too, after he hit her.
> 
> ...



Yes this is all true, DMS Kakashi was clearly above SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke although people continue to be in-denial about it. However, I still believe that SPSM Naruto at his absolute strongest would defeat Kakashi. SPSM Naruto with all nine Gudoudama + absorbed natural energy + Asura Bijuu Mode + thousands of Kage Bunshin + special abilities of all of the Bijuu makes it extremely hard to imagine Kakashi winning. It's true that DMS Kakashi took on and overpowered a much stronger version of Kaguya than the one Naruto and Sasuke fought, but Naruto didn't even use all of his abilities against her and Sasuke was still figuring out how to use his Rinnegan. At their strongest, I'd put them above him say they'd win with high difficulty.


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Kai said:


> And Kakashi's Complete Body Susanoo got one-shotted. All he needed was right eye's phasing power and Kamui Raikiri. Something that took Kaguya off guard, just as Obito did to Madara to steal bijuu chakras.


 
1st is good, even if mostly a gag. And still not what I said, which is flawlessy defending from Kaguya and successfully counterattacking her.

2nd, shows Naruto blitzing Kaguya when she was very low on chakra (it was stated at the beginning of the chapter, I also linked the page more than once). Impressive, still absolutely impressive, but not my much when Naruto couldn't do the same when Kaguya was in better shape. While Kakashi did the same with an attack hyped for its speed, and did that when Kaguya was powered up by absorbing a lot of chakra from the people who were under the Infinite Tsukuyomi, and her speed and might were textually hyped by Zetsu as far superior than before. So while Naruto's feat is impressive, Kakashi's feat is far more impressive than the one of his disciple.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Yes this is all true, DMS Kakashi was clearly above SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke although people continue to be in-denial about it. However, I still believe that SPSM Naruto at his absolute strongest would defeat Kakashi. SPSM Naruto with all nine Gudoudama + absorbed natural energy + Asura Bijuu Mode + thousands of Kage Bunshin + special abilities of all of the Bijuu makes it extremely hard to imagine Kakashi winning. It's true that DMS Kakashi took on and overpowered a much stronger version of Kaguya than the one Naruto and Sasuke fought, but Naruto didn't even use all of his abilities against her and Sasuke was still figuring out how to use his Rinnegan. At their strongest, I'd put them above him say they'd win with high difficulty.


Well, they would be far above him in raw power. But if you think about it: even then outclass him in raw power won't help them avoiding long range Kamui GG or hitting him when he can simply phase through (no matter how powerful the attack) or teleport himself out of trouble.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> 1st is good, even if mostly a gag. And still not what I said, which is flawlessy defending from Kaguya and successfully counterattacking her.
> 
> 2nd, shows Naruto blitzing Kaguya when she was very low on chakra (it was stated at the beginning of the chapter, I also linked the page more than once). Impressive, still absolutely impressive, but not my much when Naruto couldn't do the same when Kaguya was in better shape. While Kakashi did the same with an attack hyped for its speed, and did that when Kaguya was powered up by absorbing a lot of chakra from the people who were under the Infinite Tsukuyomi, and her speed and might were textually hyped by Zetsu as far superior than before. So while Naruto's feat is impressive, Kakashi's feat is far more impressive than the one of his disciple.
> 
> ...


I was saying that Naruto's already impressive reflexes and speed would be even greater in that state, and that combined with all of his Kage Bunshin would allow him to dodge long-range Kamui as Kakashi cannot tell the difference. Kakashi wont be able to just phase through all attacks and massacre Naruto and his clones. As the instant he becomes tangible he'd be engulfed in Kokuo's Futton that Naruto could use.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

How Kaguya's shit work






There was nothing about being "fast" lol
Kakashi fanboys are reaching too much. 


Edit:
in case it's not clear how the manga showed it to be or in those small gif


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## S (May 6, 2016)

Could go either way but i'm leaning more on Naruto's side this time. I think Naruto is the worst possible match up for Kakashi but the goddamn kamui is broken as f*ck...if Kakashi can react and eventually blitz Kaguya he can do the same to Naruto in some extent....probably, and maybe caught Naruto of guard or something.


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> attacks and massacre Naruto and his clones





Isaiah13000 said:


> Yes this is all true, DMS Kakashi was clearly above SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke although people continue to be in-denial about it


back with this nonsense again , can't you form an argument on your own 
all that talk about DMS kakashi has been shot down many times by alot of guys here
unless you think 99 % of the posters in this thread are deluded 


Isaiah13000 said:


> I still believe that SPSM Naruto at his absolute strongest would defeat Kakashi.


no he doesn't need his strongest form 
he doesn't need more chakra
he doesn't need more nukes
he doesn't need more fire power
what he has is already enuff 
what he needs is :
KB
his speed and reactions
his rikudou level sensing
and any casual nukes he can use


Isaiah13000 said:


> SPSM Naruto with all nine Gudoudama + absorbed natural energy + Asura Bijuu Mode + thousands of Kage Bunshin + special abilities of all of the Bijuu


see above 


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's true that DMS Kakashi took on and overpowered a much stronger version of Kaguya than the one Naruto and Sasuke fought,



>landing a hit and 4 shurikens on her unstable form
>says he faught and took on and overpowered 
R.I.P logic 
didn't know that landing one hit on your opponet is more impressive than landing 20 hits 
#NBD boys and girls 


Raikiri19 said:


> 2nd, shows Naruto blitzing Kaguya when she was very low on chakra (it was stated at the beginning of the chapter, I also linked the page more than once). Impressive, still absolutely impressive, but not my much when Naruto couldn't do the same when Kaguya was in better shape. While Kakashi did the same with an attack hyped for its speed, and did that when Kaguya was powered up by absorbing a lot of chakra from the people who were under the Infinite Tsukuyomi, and her speed and might were textually hyped by Zetsu as far superior than before. So while Naruto's feat is impressive, Kakashi's feat is far more impressive than the one of his disciple.


ck lets shot down this argument shall we :
- kaguya was low on chakra , cuz naruto *made the fight so damn hard for her*
- naruto :
*9 hits with a rasenshurikens* , it was also a *blitz* , cuz she *couldn't react to'em
slammed* her to a mountain , after using his sexy no jutsu , you can also say it was a blitz cause *she couldn't react* 
blitzed her from a *far distance* , with *no reaction* from her
*overpowered* her chakra arm
dodged her ST *without* the need of any ST jutsu
was praised for his reactions by *BZ*
landed the sealing blow on her

- kakashi :
hit her with a raikiri from a *very short distance* , and she was able to react to him *twice*
landed 4 shurikens kamui on her chakra arms when she was *out of control*
wraped an ash bone from a very far distance , when the attack *wasn't even directed at him*

logical conclusion number one :
naruto *faught* and held his own very well for a long time
naruto was the one who caused *the biggest damage* to kaguya out of anyone was there in that fight
naruto anded *at least* 13 blow on kaguya
naruto was the reason the fight was so damn hard for her
naruto was the reason she was getting low on chakra
logical conclusion number two :
naruto actually *faught*

logical conclusion number three :
what kakashi did against her *wasn't even a fight *
kakashi landed 5 hits on her , if we include her chakra arms as a part of her

logical conclusion number four :
naruto's performance >>>> kakashi's

logical conclusion number five :
naruto didn't use *half *of his arsenal against her
kakashi used *everything* he got

> Isaiah13000


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

S said:


> blitz Kaguya


wasn't a blitz , what naruto did was a blitz


S said:


> caught Naruto of guard or something.


cuz naruto is not the best freaking sensor in the manga ?


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

S said:


> blitz Kaguya


wasn't a blitz , what naruto did was a blitz


S said:


> caught Naruto of guard or something.


cuz naruto is not the best freaking sensor in the manga ?


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

BM Narudo alone is more than fully capable of defeating DMS Kakashi. 

having RM Narudo Vs DMS Kakashi is pure garbage.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> back with this nonsense again , can't you form an argument on your own
> all that talk about DMS kakashi has been shot down many times by alot of guys here
> unless you think 99 % of the posters in this thread are deluded
> 
> ...



It was already proven how DMS Kakashi is much faster and more reflexive than SPSM Naruto. Naruto has far more chakra so he can outlast DMS Kakashi but only if he goes all out. If he doesn't go all-out, he is going to be completely annihilated very quickly without being able to react. It's true that Naruto did most of the work, but it's because of Kakashi that Kaguya was ultimately defeated. It doesn't matter if she was in an unstable form, her chakra arms were too fast for Naruto and Sasuke to deal with and Kakashi dealt with them just fine. And after she regained control of herself she was stated to be far stronger, and that is what Kakashi blitzed with Kamui Raikiri. Her being able to see Kakashi charging at her isn't a "reaction", a reaction is when you actually you know dodge the attack. She was completely blitzed and incapacitated with Black Zetsu fearing for her. 



Hussain said:


> BM Narudo alone is more than fully capable of defeating DMS Kakashi.
> 
> having RM Narudo Vs DMS Kakashi is pure garbage.


BM Naruto beating DMS Kakashi is one of the most retarded things I have ever heard on this forum. Please tell me you are trolling.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> BM Naruto beating DMS Kakashi is one of the most retarded things I have ever heard on this forum. Please tell me you are trolling.



Don't worry, your post about Kakashi taking on  SPSM Narudo won't be surpassed in term of stupidity. 

And no, I am not trolling. Just because I don't ride Kakashi's dick as his wankers do, that does not mean I am trolling.

They don't even know the basics this manga is based on. 

> Kishi tells us that if a character is inside another character (like obito and Kakashi). Then the first character is much weaker than he normally is. And yet, Kakashi-tard did not only make Kakashi far stronger than Obito himself, but they went with foolishness way beyond that to make him stronger than Asspulldara, Narudo, Sasuke and the rest.


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## OneSimpleAnime (May 6, 2016)

I mean considering BM Naruto couldnt beat War Obito without help I dont see how DMS Kakashi would lose with rikudou chakra.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I mean considering BM Naruto couldnt beat War Obito without help I dont see how DMS Kakashi would lose with rikudou chakra.



Madara had Hago's chakra and he lost to Hashirama.
People lose their brains when it comes it "Hago's chakra"

Both Narudo and Sasuke had much more than that, and they got trolled  by Shin.

JJ Obito who has several times more chakra then he head when he lost the Juubi's power, got hit and defeated by BSM Narudo and Sasuke...etc. Yet, no one was stupid enough to claim that they were stronger than he is just because he was able to hit him. 

Nor was the case with Tobirama when he was able to hit Obito either. Have you seen anyone claiming that Tobirama is stronger than Hashirama because he tagged Obito? lol

and so on...

The same thing applies to Kakashi, or do you think that Kishi was using that logic with all the characters, but he was using a different one with Kakashi?

Edit:

The same thing with the fact that Sakura was able to hit and effect Kaguya with her punch. The thing Kakashi fanboys try to ignore so desperately.


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> It was already proven how DMS Kakashi is much faster and more reflexive than SPSM Naruto


i think it's about time you cut the BS my friend , this is getting so stupid 


Isaiah13000 said:


> Naruto has far more chakra so he can outlast DMS Kakashi but only if he goes all out


more like far more chakra to fully rape kakashi even without going all out 


Isaiah13000 said:


> If he doesn't go all-out, he is going to be completely annihilated very quickly without being able to react.


 tha fuck is ? this is absolutly a sig worthy statement , i should bring back my hall of shame and post this at the top of it 


Isaiah13000 said:


> It's true that Naruto did most of the work, but it's because of Kakashi that Kaguya was ultimately defeated.


no , naruto did most of the work 
team work was the ultimate reasons she was sealed , and your fanfictions won't cut it 
and if stop your fantasy and get back to reality , you better check out what you write before pressing the submit button 


Isaiah13000 said:


> It doesn't matter if she was in an unstable form


yes it matters , unless you think uncontrolled juubito is the same as controlled juubito :mao


Isaiah13000 said:


> her chakra arms were too fast for Naruto and Sasuke to deal with and Kakashi dealt with them just fine.


nonsense 
naruto > his clones 
second of all , naruto was reacting all the time , don't know which fight you saw , but i'm sure it wasn't kaguya's 
third of all , kakashi simply throw his shuriken kamuis at the chakra arms 
that doesn't mean his shuriken kamuis are faster 
the shurikens and the arms were at opposite direction
if a bull is rushing , and i came running and hit him at an opposite direction 
does this mean i'm faster than the bull ?


Isaiah13000 said:


> Her being able to see Kakashi charging at her isn't a "reaction", a reaction is when you actually you know dodge the attack. She was completely blitzed and incapacitated with Black Zetsu fearing for her.


yes , shooting her ash bones at him is a reaction , is it not ? 
kakashi always hits his opponet's heart with his raikiri , but this time the raikiri hit the arm , that means kaguya was able to react again by moving her body 
can't you at least put 1 and 1 together


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Don't worry, your post about Kakashi taking on  SPSM Narudo won't be surpassed in term of stupidity.
> 
> And no, I am not trolling. Just because I don't ride Kakashi's dick as his wankers do, that does not mean I am trolling.
> 
> ...



Cause that's the level DMS Kakashi was put on, he was the single most OP thing in the series when he came out.



Hussain said:


> Madara had Hago's chakra and he lost to Hashirama.
> People lose their brains when it comes it "Hago's chakra"
> 
> Both Narudo and Sasuke had much more than that, and they got trolled  by Shin.
> ...



Madara had only unlocked a small portion when he fought Hashirama. Naruto and Sasuke were both rusty, holding back, and didn't want to kill Shin when they fought him. This has been said a dime a dozen times, the instant Naruto and Sasuke got serious Naruto literally took on a whole army of Shin clones with his own clones that literally stared them down into submission. Whilst Sasuke one-shotted Shin by himself who was later finished off by his own clones. If Naruto and Sasuke were unrestrained, they would've one-shotted Shin immediately and the story couldn't progress. They had to be hindered in some way and you know it.

Juubito was only defeated because his chakra was extracted, other than that, none of their attacks actually did any real damage to him. In the end it took BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Konoha 11, KCM Minato, Gaara, Killer B, and the whole Alliance to defeat Juubito.

Tobirama got blitzed by Juubito and torn in half, that is not at all comparable to what Kakashi did with Kaguya. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. You continuously post shitty and illogical comparisons that were under the influence of different circumstances between different characters. Your arguments are shitty and half-baked that make little to no sense. Even with the Kaguya gif. When Kaguya first used the portal it was slow, but when she used it later she did it so fast that Sasuke couldn't react and Naruto was still taken by surprise. Acting like they were all the same is completely nonsensical.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

> [="Isaiah13000, post: 55594082, member: 251681"]Cause that's the level DMS Kakashi was put on, he was the single most OP thing in the series when he came out.



Sakura's role and effect in that battle should tell you about the amount of BS in your claim. Likewise, Bolt getting involved in a battle that involve the 5 Kages, Sasuke, Momoshiki and Kinshiki.

You clearly unable to comprehend the entire point of that battle.


> Madara had only unlocked a small portion when he fought Hashirama. Naruto and Sasuke were both rusty, holding back, and didn't want to kill Shin when they fought him. This has been said a dime a dozen times, the instant Naruto and Sasuke got serious Naruto literally took on a whole army of Shin clones with his own clones that literally stared them down into submission. Whilst Sasuke one-shotted Shin by himself who was later finished off by his own clones. If Naruto and Sasuke were unrestrained, they would've one-shotted Shin immediately and the story couldn't progress. They had to be hindered in some way and you know it.



Because Kakashi got a ton of chakra? He only has the leftover in case you haven't noticed. 
Where was stated that they were holding back against adult Shin? And how does that change the fact that they have Hago's chakra?

And if Narudo and Sasuke were rusty after 15 years, wouldn't Kaguya be even more after 1000 years of being sealed? 



> Juubito was only defeated because his chakra was extracted, other than that, none of their attacks actually did any real damage to him. In the end it took BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Konoha 11, KCM Minato, Gaara, Killer B, and the whole Alliance to defeat Juubito.


And Kaguya was only defeated because she got sealed and Kakashi has nothing to do with the seals, no?
and if you want to take "at the end", then at the end it took Narudo/Sasuke to seal her. Not Kakashi. 




> Tobirama got blitzed by Juubito and torn in half, that is not at all comparable to what Kakashi did with Kaguya. I feel like I am talking to a brick wall. You continuously post shitty and illogical comparisons that were under the influence of different circumstances between different characters. Your arguments are shitty and half-baked that make little to no sense. Even with the Kaguya gif. When Kaguya first used the portal it was slow, but when she used it later she did it so fast that Sasuke couldn't react and Naruto was still taken by surprise. Acting like they were all the same is completely nonsensical.



He did tag him? No, so the point is still there.

Please, you are the last person to talk about illogical stuff when you are foolishly believe in rubbish like Narudo needing RM-SM mode to defeat Kakashi. 

When the manga clearly stated that
1- Obito (with full power) is weaker than JJ Madara
2- Madara stating that half dead obito is weak
3- B saying when he is inside Narudo he was much weaker

and that did not stop you from believing the this rubbish that Kakashi who got even less chakra
is somehow stronger than those. 

and then you have the Insolence to talk about "shitty/illogical...etc"? lol


----------



## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> No he can't.
> He has 4 shurikens and the kamui warp is the same size of those shurikens.


I am obviously talking about the left-eye Kamui. *sigh*



> As for Kakashi making a larger long range kamui warp. Well that's irrelevant because he can't catch a s single Narutos clone in that.


Kakashi is not lacking in brain cells that he would attempt to warp. . . clones. It compromises his defense. Kamui + Raikiri is his best bet, amidst the clone swarm.



> Making a bigger warp is only taxing him more chakra and leaving him vulnerable for longer periods of time since he can't focus on multiple entities at once


Six Paths chakra mitigated any physical drawbacks he had, and therein lies my contention, even in the next point, when I make mention of it.


> With RSM Narutos heightened reflexes that surpass even that of Juubi Jins, I'm going to say this with absolute certainty that kamui is lol dodged shit diff. Especially when naruto dodged kaguyas portal and when the slower Jin Madara said that his limbo is much faster than TSB which are around the same echelon as kamui


(1) Juubi Jinchuuriki use Six Paths Sage Mode. Your assertion that Naruto's reflexes surpass them, carries no weight.
(2) Kamui is slower, when the user attempts to warp himself, compared to its other applications.



> Six paths chakra doesn't change the speed of kamui warp. That's fanfic.
> Stronger chakra strengthens the jutsu, doesn't change its properties
> Just how Amaterasus speed is unchanged from six paths chakra


I insinuated no such thing.




> No they are not.
> RSM naruto is *far more mobile* than Kaguya in her berserk stage
> 
> As it stands the speed of kamui shuriken is nowhere near sufficient enough to land on naruto


Kakashi has better options to hit Naruto with, than Kamui Shurikens.



> Worst case scenario. Naruto tosses a TSB at it and the shuriken disappear by warping them away
> 
> So No. They're non factor


> Neutralize an attack.
> Non-factor.

Pick one, mate.




> "Lol flight" isn't going to let Kakashi evade Narutos nukes just how it didn't let Sasuke evade them


Did you bother to review the fight, prior to making this claim? Not a single panel, wherein Sasuke tried to dodge Bijuudama and variants, whilst clad in the Susano'o. . . let alone failed.



> Especially when naruto can run up and toss them point blank
> Then there's the AOE of those nukes. Naruto doesn't even need to aim it head on for PS to get caught


Impact is imperative, if blast radius is up for consideration.



> Naruto tosses casual 6 BDRS and PS gets mopped off the face of the earth


Because Kakashi cannot throw in Kamui Shuriken, as you yourself suggested two minutes earlier, to neutralize Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Or you know, just fly sideways? Or fly sideways, while throwing Kamui Shurikens? Or what is that ethereal winged-construct flying in between the Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken?



> Certified idiot who blitzed Kaguya. Absorbed the entire worlds nature energy. Matched kaguyas vacuum fists for a brief encounter and evaded her portal point blank
> 
> Feats that far surpass kakashis
> 
> ...


I see that you chose to address the non-issue, instead of actually trying to provide a feasible counter-measure from within Naruto's arsenal that addresses the problem of intangibility.



> Yeah no. I provided all of Narutos counters to kamui and PS and how he counters all of kakashis moveset.
> And it still stands.


Hardly. In the most contrived way imaginable, you did only a jutsu-jutsu comparison.



> -- kamui can't get through multiple clones at once. Not when naruto can scatter Kakaahi with them. If Kakashi attempts to warp one, he leaves himself wide open for the other 10-100 clones to blitz with a Rasengan


How does the series' master strategist, standing amidst a swarm of clones, mindfully leave himself vulnerable to accomplish something that would gaurantee his defeat?



> -- RSM Narutos speed >>>>>> kamui warps. So it gets dodged *every single time*


Naruto can 'dodge' Kamui (if at all), but has an underlying presumption that there is no distraction involved, and Kakashi will always 'mindlessly' attempt that. To top that, you ignore that Kakashi is able to specify the area at will, and conjuring up a huge one effectively removes any chance of Naruto dodging it.



> -- PS lacks the offense to even scratch RSM avatar. And it lacks the defense to tank BDRS/TBB barrages


The Perfect Susano'o cannot breach Naruto's defenses, but Kamui can. . . and you ignore that.



> Chakra level is clearly an issue since Kakashis DMS is not his. It's obitos and he can only stay in his head for A certain amount of time.


No, it is not. Knowing whose eyes they actually are, has no impact on the outcome of the battle. That is just silly. 



> He'll be lucky to go past 5-10 mins MAX


That is a lot of time.


----------



## Android (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Kakashi has better options to hit Naruto with, than Kamui Shurikens.


actually , chances that naruto hits kakashi's susanoo with a barrage of TBBs are bigger than naruto's avatar getting hit with just 4 shurikens


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Sakura's role and effect in that battle should tell you about the amount of BS in your claim. Likewise, Bolt getting involved in a battle that involve the 5 Kages, Sasuke, Momoshiki and Kinshiki.
> 
> You clearly unable to comprehend the entire point of that battle.
> 
> ...


Dude, DMS Kakashi was simply an illogical freak of nature. He only had the leftovers of Obito's Six Paths chakra yet it made him stronger than SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. It may not make sense, but that's what happened. How much chakra they have is usually relevant but not in DMS Kakashi's case. It goes SPSM Naruto (Full Power) > Rinnegan Sasuke (Full Power) > DMS Kakashi > SPSM Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Minato's statement about Obito's power in comparison to Asspulldara's
Note: he is talking about JJ Obito



Asspulldara's statement about Obito's power




Asspulldara is pointing out how "weak" obito is. Even tho he still has some power at least

3- B said that inside someone else, he is not even as powerful


You can also see this with Kushina whom Kurama destroyed her chains easily inside of Narudo, but couldn't in real life...etc etc

and Obito's statement that if Asspulldara gets the 2 Rinnegan he can't be stopped

,,,,etc etc

And then, with the many different times Kishi told us about those comparisons, people made Kakashi somehow jump 10 tiers above.


----------



## Android (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> stronger than SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke.


he is not , not by a long shot


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Dude, DMS Kakashi was simply an illogical freak of nature. He only had the leftovers of Obito's Six Paths chakra yet it made him stronger than SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke. It may not make sense, but that's what happened. How much chakra they have is usually relevant but not in DMS Kakashi's case. It goes SPSM Naruto (Full Power) > Rinnegan Sasuke (Full Power) > DMS Kakashi > SPSM Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke.



It did not make him stronger. The power of wank did. The manga made the levels clear. 
Its when people start to pull excuses out of their asses or give things way more than it should have gotten of attention do the 
illogical scaling happens.

What you do is no different than Shinobi no Kamui does when he is talking about Hashirama and how his clones are stronger
than Narudo and Sasuke

It's no different than what itachi's fans do when they ignore manga-canon and rely on fanfiction
which lead to some rubbish like itachi defeating the 5 Kages, or his undefeatable because Zetsu said so

and so on.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> i think it's about time you cut the BS my friend , this is getting so stupid
> 
> more like far more chakra to fully rape kakashi even without going all out
> 
> ...


I really have nothing else left to say, Raikiri19 has posted the same things over and over again that are more than enough proof to put Kakashi above them normally. In the end, Naruto is going to win but only after having the fight of his life.


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## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> It did not make him stronger. The power of wank did. The manga made the levels clear.
> Its when people start to pull excuses out of their asses or give things way more than it should have gotten of attention do the
> illogical scaling happens.
> 
> ...


Except my argument actually makes sense. Shinobi no Kami's arguments are a joke and everyone knows that. No one in their right mind actually believes Itachi will one-shot the Gokage with Utakata nor that he is actually invincible. What I'm saying makes far more sense.


----------



## Android (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I really have nothing else left to say


no shit


Isaiah13000 said:


> Raikiri19 has posted the same things over and over again that are more than enough proof to put Kakashi above them normally


best argument ever , proud of ya
completly ignoring what me and about 10 more posters have provided for ya


Isaiah13000 said:


> In the end, Naruto is going to win but only after having the fight of his life.


more like a walk in the park , after that he's at home enjoying his time with hinata


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Except my argument actually makes sense. Shinobi no Kami's arguments are a joke and everyone knows that. No one in their right mind actually believes Itachi will one-shot the Gokage with Utakata nor that he is actually invincible. What I'm saying makes far more sense.


You say that what you are saying makes sense, and they claim the same about their favourites as well.

Fun fact, none of you do make sense. Everyone wank their favourite characters to make it the strongest and whatnot.


----------



## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> actually , chances that naruto hits kakashi's susanoo with a barrage of TBBs are bigger than naruto's avatar getting hit with just 4 shurikens


You misunderstand. Kakashi does not need to use Kamui Shuriken against Naruto, because he has other options available.



Hussain said:


> Minato's statement about Obito's power in comparison to Asspulldara's
> Note: he is talking about JJ Obito
> 
> 
> ...


Please. You are among the people, who complained the most about Kishi's _horrible writing _and his bias for the Uchiha (particularly Obito), but it makes your skin crawl that it crept up into the final battle.


----------



## Android (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> because he has other options available


what other options ?!


----------



## Isaiah13000 (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> You say that what you are saying makes sense, and they claim the same about their favourites as well.
> 
> Fun fact, none of you do make sense. Everyone wank their favourite characters to make it the strongest and whatnot.


Kakashi isn't my favorite character so you cannot accuse me of wanking my favorite character. Raikiri19 simply provided the superior argument.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Please. You are among the people, who complained the most about Kishi's _horrible writing _and his bias for the Uchiha (particularly Obito), but it makes your skin crawl that it crept up into the final battle.



Yes, Kishi's writing is horrible, and he is bias obviously. Altho I am not really sure what does that have to do with what I posted. 

Are you saying that he was telling us that Obito is much weaker, but then he made him much stronger? 

By your logic, Obito himself managed to hit Asspulldara when he got the Bijuu's chakra, why did not madara say that Obito is powerful? or stronger than he is?

What happened is simple
1- Asspulldara did not see that coming, so he got hit
2- Kaguya did not know about Kamui's ability so she was hit
3- Narudo/Sasuke did not know about Shin's ability so they were hit
4- Momoshiki did not know about Bolt's rassengan's special ability, so he got hit

Kakashi's fanboys talk as if that something out of the ordinary or has never happened. Which is obviously not the case.
That does not mean Kishi changed his mind regarding the different in power, it just what usually happen when someone
does not know everything s/he needs to know.

It's that simple.


----------



## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> what other options ?!



Did you read Argus' post? He said that Naruto would dodge Kamui Shurikens. Why would he use Kamui Shurikens, when he can just achieve the _same effect_ with his left-eye Kamui? That is quite frankly, stupid.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Kakashi isn't my favorite character so you cannot accuse me of wanking my favorite character. Raikiri19 simply provided the superior argument.


Whatever makes you happy. 
I have already trashed his argument.


----------



## Android (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Raikiri19 simply provided the superior argument.


----------



## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> BM Narudo alone is more than fully capable of defeating DMS Kakashi.
> 
> having RM Narudo Vs DMS Kakashi is pure garbage.



You have the nerve to accuse us of being illiterate, stupid, trolling Kakashi fanboy wankers, then you go on to say shit like BM Naruto is enough to take on a Six Paths-empowered PS-using Kamui-wielding user when BM Naruto couldn't do jack by himself against a guy with only defensive Kamui.

Your credibility as a NB debater tanks and your colors show when you say shit like this. In the end though, we already know you're a Naruto fanboy and hard wanker too, so it's to be expected.

Naruto may defeat DMS Kakashi most of the time, but it's sure going to be one hell of a fight. Hell, Kakashi could win this too if he plays his cards right.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> You accuse us of being illiterate, stupid, trolling Kakashi fanboy wankers, then you go on to say shit like BM Naruto is enough to take on a Six Paths-empowered PS-using Kamui-wielding user when BM Naruto couldn't do jack by himself against a guy with only defensive Kamui.
> 
> Your credibility as a NB debater tanks and your colors show when you say shit like this.
> 
> Naruto may defeat DMS Kakashi, but it's going to be one hell of a fight. Hell, Kakashi could win this too if he plays his cards right.



Wasn't Narudo taking on the much superior JJ Obito? 

- Also, you are saying "couldn't do jack by himself against a guy with only defensive Kamui." it seems like you can't look further than your nose. That guy had 6 Jinchuurikis with him at first, and then the Gedu-Mazu, and then the Juubi.

Additionally, Kakashi's Kamui is not going to last more than few moments. It's a temporary power-up.
Bijuu

So what if he can phase thro Narudo's attack for a moment or 2? This BM Narudo is the same guy who kept holding his own and protecting everyone from Madara, Obito, and the Juubi's attacks, no?

Kakashi's time limit is going to break his back here. And unlike Kaguya, Narudo already know about Kamui. And unlike her, he can use thousands of clones as well. And unlike Kaguya, he is facing 1 guy, not 5 that she had to keep track of all of them at the same time.

Saying BM Narudo can win against DMS Kakashi is not as outrageous or idiotic as saying DMS Kakashi stands a chance against RM Narudo/Rinnegan Sasuke. Especially when we have clear statements about the power different. Kishi did not even ask you to be smart, he literally spoon-fed you the power differences between those characters



> Naruto may defeat DMS Kakashi, but it's going to be one hell of a fight. Hell, Kakashi could win this too if he plays his cards right.




Narudo was able to fight Sasuke for an ENTIRE DAY while being drained of chakra, Kakashi can't even last for 5 minutes.

Also, I don't even remember taking to you about Kakashi to say I accused you. 
when I debated you, it was about Sasuke, no? : nonon


----------



## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Yes, Kishi's writing is horrible, and he is bias obviously. Altho I am not really sure what does that have to do with what I posted.


Join the band of folks who thought that Kakashi-Obito fusion dance was epitome of bad writing? That Kakashi should not have been made this strong?



> Are you saying that he was telling us that Obito is much weaker, but then he made him much stronger?
> 
> By your logic, Obito himself managed to hit Asspulldara when he got the Bijuu's chakra, why did not madara say that Obito is powerful? or stronger than he is?


No. I am saying that Kamui is evidently the best technique in the entire run of the series. Applications stack up, as desired. 

As a side note, since you mentioned Madara vs. Obito, would you like enlighten new souls that you strongly believed that a half-dead Obito would beat Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara, based on a single panel, wherein Madara's attack slips through him?



> What happened is simple
> 1- Asspulldara did not see that coming, so he got hit
> 2- Kaguya did not know about Kamui's ability so she was hit
> 3- Narudo/Sasuke did not know about Shin's ability so they were hit
> ...


Kaguya reflected after seeing her Ash Bone technique slip through him, and Kamui-Raikiri in his hand. She felt _no need to do anything_, but when Kakashi had initially attacked her with Susano'o, she had no trouble responding? Please, tell me another joke. Zetsu's dialogue and supporting visuals are all indicative of her being unable to deal with Kakashi's speed.


----------



## Max Thunder (May 6, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I really have nothing else left to say, Raikiri19 has posted the same things over and over again that are more than enough proof to put Kakashi above them normally. In the end, Naruto is going to win but only after having the fight of his life.



Raikiri19 is about as credible as a source for this subject as Wikipedia is for an academic piece of writing.


----------



## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

> ="Hasan, post: 55594348, member: 75070"]Join the band of folks who thought that Kakashi-Obito fusion dance was epitome of bad writing? That Kakashi should not have been made this strong?


His horrible writing comes from making Obito return of the dead by dumb excuse "I can teleport back to living world with Kamui. THAT is the definition of bad writing.


> No. I am saying that Kamui is evidently the best technique in the entire run of the series. Applications stack up, as desired.


Well, I guess if you find it the best, I can't tell you. Everyone has their favourite jutsu I guess, huh? 



> As a side note, since you mentioned Madara vs. Obito, would you like enlighten new souls that you strongly believed that a half-dead Obito would beat Juubi Jinchuuriki Madara, based on a single panel, wherein Madara's attack slips through him?



a battle did not actually happen. Asspulldara could have defeated him with Limbo tho if he wants.
and obviously Madara's hand is not the fastest attack he has no?



> Kaguya reflected after seeing her Ash Bone technique slip through him, and Kamui-Raikiri in his hand. She felt _no need to do anything_, but when Kakashi had initially attacked her with Susano'o, she had no trouble responding? Please, tell me another joke. Zetsu's dialogue and supporting visuals are all indicative of her being unable to deal with Kakashi's speed.


That surprise factor is what made this whole thing possible.
I am not sure what you are referring to with the rest to be honest. 

If you are talking about his Kamui-Shurkin, she was not even stable because of what Narudo did. If you are talking about something else, I don't remember Kakashi attacking her with Susanoo. 

- Now that is a good joke you said. 
It's like saying Momoshiki who dealt with Sasuke's speed can't deal with Bolt's speed and that's why he got killed. 

Or that Kaguya can deal with Narudo's speed and Sasuke's Teleportation, but she can't deal with Sakura's speed and that's why she did not dodge her. lol 

I guess we can agree that Sakura is faster than Narudo and Sasuke as well, right?


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> It did not make him stronger. The power of wank did. The manga made the levels clear.
> Its when people start to pull excuses out of their asses or give things way more than it should have gotten of attention do the
> illogical scaling happens.
> 
> ...



The difference here is that Kakashi was not only given the hype, but the feats as well.

Most arguments *against* Kakashi's feats vs Kaguya rely on biased assumptions and fanfiction instead of actual facts and events, which are the backbone of kakashi having a great shot vs naruto as opposed to "Naruto low diff lol".

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Most arguments *against* Kakashi's feats vs Kaguya rely on biased assumptions


Bias assumption

 you have no idea what you are talking about.

Wrong Most argument that is provided that support Kakashi to be successful here is to ignore the feats and change the facts so that they only see the part they want.

Blitz argument

Kakashi blitz Kaguya -> Because he hit her, that's it.

the argument why it wasn't a blitz.

Raikiri ignored the part where Kaguya reacted to Kakashi, shot an ash bone. was surprise the ash bone phased through Kakashi but still find the time to shift her position to dis-align Kakashi from hitting her heart.

There's seriously no assumption here. Open the page re-size it at a larger size and view it panel to panel you will see everything clearer.




Kakashi spamming Kamui Shuriken - Raikiri believed Kakashi can do more than what was shown in the manga

Seriously who is assuming now.

argument against it.

We have panel proof of Kakashi using up DMS before the event even ended.
Falling next to Sakura from exhaustion the very next chapter the moment Obito left him.



The strategy of Kaguya's downfall concocted by Kakashi

- He literally ignored that Kishi ignored 90% of Kaguya's shown ability in the very same arc for it to happen

seriously who's bias here now.



If raikiri's argument wasn't full of holes like a swiss cheese I'd most likely support it.

 Sadly it is.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 6, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Bias assumption
> 
> you have no idea what you are talking about.
> 
> ...



So what you are saying is that Kaguya's was fully aware of kakashi wanting to raikiri her ass, yet she was still barely able to dodge it, but still get hit? The same Kaguya that zetsu had just stated to be exponentially stronger than a few moments ago when she was trashing naruto and sasuke?

How about people ignoring kakashi taking care of those hands that even naruto and sasuke deemed to fast to do anything to save sasuka, or having the reflexes to accurately pinpoint her opening a portal and kamuing her super fast ash bone.


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

No idea. I'm not even going to bother. why?
Because you guys are the one who needs to provide proof for your claims. Also as shown in your post, you are asking question that needs us to make an assumption. why would I bother with it?

 The only thing I am doing is literally saying what the panel showed us,



Crimson Flam3s said:


> naruto and sasuke deemed to fast to do anything to save sasuka, or having the reflexes to accurately pinpoint her opening a portal and kamuing her super fast ash bone.



There's 2 things unclear here Sakura's position from Naruto and Sauce and Kakashi's position from Sakura. -> And I'm not even going to bother assuming anything. He saved Sakura good. Does it show proof about his speed not really.

 If Kakashi is in the same place as Naruto and Sasuke and he was able to move to Sakura's location and save Sakura. that's an entirely different matter and a great indication of Kakashi's speed. But the only thing it told us is that Kakashi saved Sakura.



> How about people ignoring kakashi taking care of those hands that even



It wasn't ignored he hit a chakra arm we don't even know where it was going.

This is basically the same shit with Minato hitting a kunai thrown by multiple Iwa ninja that wasn't even directed at him.

 and how do people look at that not impressive at all. So why is it impressive when it was Kakashi? there's your bias.


----------



## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Wasn't Narudo taking on the much superior JJ Obito?
> 
> - Also, you are saying "couldn't do jack by himself against a guy with only defensive Kamui." it seems like you can't look further than your nose. That guy had 6 Jinchuurikis with him at first, and then the Gedu-Mazu, and then the Juubi.
> 
> ...



Kurama's chakra boost allowed Kakashi to warp Gyuki, who is about the same size as 50 % Kurama. Now, if we take into account the fact that Six Paths chakra >>>>> Kurama's chakra... the time limit won't matter as the battle will already be over before it has actually begun.



> Narudo was able to fight Sasuke for an ENTIRE DAY while being drained of chakra, Kakashi can't even last for 5 minutes.
> 
> Also, I don't even remember taking to you about Kakashi to say I accused you.
> when I debated you, it was about Sasuke, no? : nonon



How did you quantify 5 minutes? I for one believe that Obito's spirit will remain in Kakashi for as long as Kakashi needs to do battle. It's not a coincidence that Obito was going to leave back to the Pure World just as Hagoromo told Kakashi he would be inquiring Obito about all he did.

The fact that Kakashi was able to unleash Perfect Susano'o with simply Mangekyo Sharingan implies that the amount of Six Paths chakra is not negligible. Kamui, arguably the most broken and hax technique in the entire manga, manages to bypass powerscaling and destructive capacity. Anything Obito has shown to do with his left eye, Kakashi can presumably do and likely better and faster.  RSM Naruto has superior reflexes and reactions, no doubt, but DMS Kakashi's feats are also outstanding. Given what we've seen with Kamui, it's not out of the realm.

I don't like to see double standards when you claim some arguments as trash and then you go on to say that a BM Naruto > an established God-tier character. That's all.


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## shade0180 (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> I for one believe that Obito's spirit will remain in Kakashi for as long as Kakashi needs to do battle.


That's your problem then because Kishi showed us a limitation.

 it's only your assumption that you can ignore that limitation.


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## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> His horrible writing comes from making Obito return of the dead by dumb excuse "I can teleport back to living world with Kamui. THAT is the definition of bad writing.



Uh, I know that. My point is that you are trying to make sense out of an arc that has none, and the only reason you are going through the trouble of actually trying to make sense is because it is Kakashi vs. *Final Villain*. _You cannot top that_. Naruto and Sasuke spent a fair amount of time fighting her to no avail. Then Kakashi ended the fight within 30 seconds flat, when he received his long overdue dose of the crazy and took the lead. . . gives the impression that Kakashi is actually a better fighter. In other words, you people fall into same bias you accuse us of.


> Well, I guess if you find it the best, I can't tell you. Everyone has their favourite jutsu I guess, huh?


By design, I mean. _Hax_, as you folks put it. I do not mean it as my favorite jutsu. Thus far, no one has given a solid explanation, _without making Kakashi lose his brain cells_, that Naruto is perfectly capable of countering it.




> a battle did not actually happen. Asspulldara could have defeated him with Limbo tho if he wants.
> and obviously Madara's hand is not the fastest attack he has no?


In Battledome, I mean. I _vividly _recall you arguing multiple times that Obito would win. I even considered bookmarking those posts, at one time. 



> That surprise factor is what made this whole thing possible.
> I am not sure what you are referring to with the rest to be honest.
> 
> If you are talking about his Kamui-Shurkin, she was not even stable because of what Narudo did. If you are talking about something else, I don't remember Kakashi attacking her with Susanoo.



_Tried to_, or _engaged_. I hope that describes it better. When Kaguya uses her Ash Bone Technique to destroy his Susano'o. _She attacked him_, and notices him slipping through. Afterwards, _according to_ _you people_, she kept on staring at man who made a jump from a considerable distance, advancing towards her with. . . guess what, a lethal attack, and did nothing in response. _What made her attack the first time, and not the second time? From her perspective, she had plenty of time after her first attack failed. _Look at the panel itself, there is a long trail that Kakashi leaves behind. . . Kaguya has managed to act from this close.

Finally, here is what I think: I think that Kishimoto's style is not hard to understand. What are the chances that Kaguya got hit, literally one second after Zetsu's _convenient_ _dialogue _that her _speed and strength were on a whole different tier than before_ and his reaction to her getting hit?



> - Now that is a good joke you said.
> It's like saying Momoshiki who dealt with Sasuke's speed can't deal with Bolt's speed and that's why he got killed.
> 
> Or that Kaguya can deal with Narudo's speed and Sasuke's Teleportation, but she can't deal with Sakura's speed and that's why she did not dodge her. lol
> ...



Do me a favor, and write a side-by-side comparison; cite manga scans. . . and then derive _yer_ conclusion. Because this is quite possibly the billionth time you bring up Sakura, without you addressing the refutations of your claim (which you seem to shift by bringing up Sasuke's complete Susano'o). Your understanding in its entirety hinges on the fact each one of them _got hit_, with no context whatsoever. Justice for all, mate. Minato and Naruto are not the only ones who deserve it. Obito gives Minato the talk, and justification-team is already there—with manga scans.


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Because Kakashi cannot throw in Kamui Shuriken, as you yourself suggested two minutes earlier, to neutralize Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Or you know, just fly sideways? Or fly sideways, while throwing Kamui Shurikens? Or what is that ethereal winged-construct flying in between the Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken?


do you ...... have any idea how big is the blast radius of the TBBRS is ? 
i'll give you an idea :
the blast radius of TBBRS >>> multi-meteors >>>>> one meteor >>>> a single piece of a meteor >>>> mountain ranges >>>>> mountains in size 


so even if kakashi somehow managed to dodge , he'll get caught in the gigantic sphere of these nukes 
also , while kakashi can throw like 4 shuriken kamuis , naruto in a single barrage managed to throw 6 TBBRS 


and LOL , naruto wasn't even targeting sasuke's susanoo with his shurikens , in fact  :
and i quote : '' sasuke , be careful , i'll throw a bijuudama rasenshuriken , don't let it hit you '' 
i don't think naruto woud warn kakashi before he throws his nukes at him


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## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> do you ...... have any idea how big is the blast radius of the TBBRS is ?
> i'll give you an idea :
> the blast radius of TBBRS >>> multi-meteors >>>>> one meteor >>>> a single piece of a meteor >>>> mountain ranges >>>>> mountains in size
> 
> ...


Try reading the next page, maybe?


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Try reading the next page, maybe?


completly ignore what i posted 
focuse on one phrase 
well done 
again , the shurikens weren't directed at sasuke , keep dreaming


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## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> completly ignore what i posted
> focuse on one phrase
> well done
> again , the shurikens weren't directed at sasuke , keep dreaming



*1. *I take it you never bothered to read the page? He yells at Sasuke for coming down all of a sudden for _reasons _. Basically, he never got to take the aim that he was talking about.
*2.* The post from which, you cut only a tiny bit, addresses the issue of blast radius. I suggest a re-read.

P.S. They are fighting on the _moon_. A miss is a miss, and it is in Naruto's best interest to not commit suicide by conjuring up an explosion that huge. Also, Kakashi has Kamui/intangibility.


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Hasan said:


> *1. *I take it you never bothered to read the page? He yells at Sasuke for coming down all of a sudden for _reasons _. Basically, he never got to take the aim that he was talking about.


  
naruto was aiming at the meteors , not sasuke , a big freaking difference
he warned sasuke not to accedently get hit with shuriken 
in this fight , naruto is attacking kakashi , directly
can't you put 1 and 1 together  


Hasan said:


> *2.* The post from which, you cut only a tiny bit, addresses the issue of blast radius. I suggest a re-read.


seems like the only answer you provided for all of my posts is '' re-read again '' 
i can see where this nonsense is going 


Hasan said:


> P.S. They are fighting on the _moon_. A miss is a miss


i have no idea what you're trying to prove with this at all 
the fight on the moon , didn't stop naruto's FRS from making a huge sphere that almost destroyed toneri


Hasan said:


> and it is in Naruto's best interest to not commit suicide by conjuring up an explosion that huge


don't worry , he survived this explosion , and an explosion powered with all the world natural energy and 9 bijuu chakra 


Hasan said:


> Also, Kakashi has Kamui/intangibility.


i was talking about PS not kakashi 
kakashi can't make his PS intangible , that's why it will get destroyed


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## Hasan (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> naruto was aiming at the meteors , not sasuke , a big freaking difference
> he warned sasuke not to accedently get hit with shuriken
> in this fight , naruto is attacking kakashi , directly
> can't you put 1 and 1 together


. . .

Ah, Susano'o managed.

EDIT: Also, Kamui Shurikens are considerably larger than Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken.

EDIT 2: I stand corrected. Naruto did target the meteors, and Sasuke was at a higher altitude than the meteors. It was only after Naruto had fired the Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken, he realized that Sasuke was coming down (4th panel), maneuvering in between the shurikens. That is why he yelled at Sasuke for coming down all of a sudden. He was complaining/agitated, not 'warning' Sasuke (you misquoted). In other words, the original aim that Naruto took, Sasuke was a different position.

Susano'o managed, indeed.



> seems like the only answer you provided for all of my posts is '' re-read again ''
> i can see where this nonsense is going


Yes. Because you are responding to bits and phrases cut from my post (not even a full sentence, at times). You wrote this entire post, whose response was a one-liner, *preceding* the paragraph that you quoted. That is why you have this 'quote' feature.

Blast-radius is only a concern, if there is an impact i.e. it hits something. Kakashi dodges → no explosion.


> i have no idea what you're trying to prove with this at all
> the fight on the moon , didn't stop naruto's FRS from making a huge sphere that almost destroyed toneri



Missed shot flies into the space? Postscript is mostly random thought.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 7, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> The only thing I am doing is literally saying what the panel showed us



Yeah and what the Panel showed us is Kaguya attacking Kakashi with the ash bones, then kakashi blitzing her in his counter attack, she was barely able to dodge him hitting her vitals while being 100% aware of the incoming attack.





> There's 2 things unclear here Sakura's position from Naruto and Sauce and Kakashi's position from Sakura. -> And I'm not even going to bother assuming anything. He saved Sakura good. Does it show proof about his speed not really.
> 
> If Kakashi is in the same place as Naruto and Sasuke and he was able to move to Sakura's location and save Sakura. that's an entirely different matter and a great indication of Kakashi's speed. But the only thing it told us is that Kakashi saved Sakura.



Sakura is a little behind and to the left down below naruto and sasuke as evidenced by the direction they look at when noticing she was about to get rekked
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.


 and the fact that kakashi swooped right up to end up behind naruto and sasuke 
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.




His perfect susano was not even up the moment the arm initiated the attack, as it's nowhere to be seen in this panel 
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.




This is significant because the same hand that almost blitzed naruto and sasuke, goes right on to try to attack sakura, and in that short period of time, kakashi was able to put up susano and swoop in to save her.

Sakura's last known position relative to kakashi is known, as the moment Kaguya changed the gravity of the planet, she was unable to move, and kakashi got his power up while standing in front of sasuke's position up in the far front from sakura( look at the first panel)
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.




Seriously, just read and pay attention carefully to the battle that ensues, and you will see that Kaguya, sasuke and naruto did not change their battle location by much 
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.


 and neither did kakashi or sakura move from where they were standing.

Finally, we have kakashi dashing with susano towards Kaguya and phasing through her bones, and raikiring her( something she was barely able to avoid from being mortal, while fully keeping her eyes on kakashi). *Kakashi did all of this before naruto and sasuke even got to her. They initiated the attack, and should have arrived and executed the seal before kakashi, if their speed advantage really existed.*
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.







> It wasn't ignored he hit a chakra arm we don't even know where it was going.



We know where it was going, right back at naruto, his clones, sasuke, and kakashi with sakura right behind them. Even one of naruto's clones says "It's coming)

*Before naruto or sasuke even began doing some counter attack or try to dodge, kakashi was already counter attacking not only the one hand coming for them, but other nearby dangerous ones as well.*
*Spoiler*: __ 










> It's a good battle technique, but it's merely only used for one situation. His Fuinjutsu however, are hardly used at all in combat.


 The Contract Seal is a fuinjutsu, and he only ever used it once because he hasn't had a need to use it any other situation as far as we know. 





> It sort of does. That's literally the definition of straight-forward, something that's not complicated and very easy to understand.


 Yet despite the straightforward fighting styles of some characters that doesn't help out their opponents at all. It doesn't matter if you understand it if you cannot overcome it. 





> Not really. Susano'o acts as both an effective defense and a more lethal offense thanks to the Totsuka Blade and Amaterasu is arguably more lethal when timed properly.


 Susanoo has a large drawback of exhausting chakra reserves and deteriorating eyesight, it is also an enormous target that is easy to hit. Hiraishin doesn't have such a drawback, completely teleporting away or warping away attacks as well as being able to instantly teleport right to your opponent and take them by surprise with a point-blank attack is more offensive, defensive, and supplementary than Susanoo.






> This is basically the same shit with Minato hitting a kunai thrown by multiple Iwa ninja that wasn't even directed at him.



Explained above therefore irrelevant, but why would minato stopping some kunais from some fodder ninjas be impressive?



> and how do people look at that not impressive at all. So why is it impressive when it was Kakashi? there's your bias.



Because it's proven that the attack was coming for them, he countered before anybody else did anything about it, and it was an attack coming not from some fodder, but Kaguya, who was giving naruto and sasuke trouble and had just exponentially amped up.

Got anything else?


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## Android (May 7, 2016)

Hasan said:


> Ah, Susano'o managed.
> 
> EDIT: Also, Kamui Shurikens are considerably larger than Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken.
> 
> ...


already adressed this nonsense and shot it down , naruto wasn't aiming at sasuke that's all what matters
the rest is the same pathetic excuses and attempts , to force something , no one here would take seriously , or care about . End of story


Hasan said:


> Yes. Because you are responding to bits and phrases cut from my post (not even a full sentence, at times). You wrote this entire post, whose response was a one-liner, *preceding* the paragraph that you quoted. That is why you have this 'quote' feature.
> Blast-radius is only a concern, if there is an impact i.e. it hits something. Kakashi dodges → no explosion.


no , i responded and quoted to the part that i wanted to respon to
the rest of your post i wasn't interested at quoting , i was only interested at shoting down the argument that kakashi's PS can dodge naruto's nukes , move on


Hasan said:


> Missed shot flies into the space? Postscript is mostly random thought.


LOL no
see toneri vs naruto , nothing flew to the space , the fight was just like it should be on the earth


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## Hasan (May 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> already adressed this nonsense and shot it down , naruto wasn't aiming at sasuke that's all what matters
> the rest is the same pathetic excuses and attempts , to force something , no one here would take seriously , or care about . End of story


A quick review of the reference chapter shows that you are, well and truly, wrong. You cited nothing from the manga to back up your case (actually misquoted to give a different meaning) and then accuse me of making up excuses, when I cite the source material? Please. You addressed jack, mate. 



> no , i responded and quoted to the part that i wanted to respon to
> the rest of your post i wasn't interested at quoting , i was only interested at shoting down the argument that kakashi's PS can dodge naruto's nukes , move on


Exactly! That's the problem. Did I stop you from refuting only a portion of my post? No. I just said—get acquainted with whatever the hell is going on, before responding. You did not cut a piece from a standalone post; you cut it from a conversation with another friend. Guess what, a part of which was about the exact same thing that you took the trouble to write another post.



Hasan said:


> *Impact is imperative, if blast radius is up for consideration.*
> 
> 
> Because Kakashi cannot throw in Kamui Shuriken, as you yourself suggested two minutes earlier, to neutralize Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Or you know, just fly sideways? Or fly sideways, while throwing Kamui Shurikens? Or what is that ethereal winged-construct flying in between the Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken?



Above is the statement (highlighted) that immediately precedes the paragraph, you quoted. I re-iterated the same thing in the post that you quote at the latest. . . and guess what, you chose not to respond to that. 



Hasan said:


> Yes. Because you are responding to bits and phrases cut from my post (not even a full sentence, at times). You wrote this entire post, whose response was a one-liner, *preceding* the paragraph that you quoted. That is why you have this 'quote' feature.
> 
> *Blast-radius is only a concern, if there is an impact i.e. it hits something. Kakashi dodges → no explosion.*





> LOL no
> see toneri vs naruto , nothing flew to the space , the fight was just like it should be on the earth


Are you serious? We are discussing what happens in the event, Kakashi manages to dodge Naruto's Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken. Of course, this would be same on the earth. It just happens that, in the manga, meteors were afloat in the close vicinity. So, yeah, makes no difference at all (you are not wrong there), as long as Kakashi dodges. But like I said, postscript was mostly random thought.


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## shade0180 (May 7, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Yeah and what the Panel showed us is Kaguya attacking Kakashi with the ash bones, then kakashi blitzing her in his counter attack, she was* barely able to dodge* him hitting her vitals while being 100% aware of the incoming attack.



See you are already misusing the word blitz

 point in case.. Anyway when we say blitz it is meant as a speedblitz

which usually depicts this meaning

"A type of argument that basically says that character A is so much faster than his opponent that he can win the fight before said opponent is even capable of reacting or doing anything."

and Kakashi failed to achieve this.




> Sakura is a little behind and to the left down below naruto and sasuke as evidenced by the direction they look at when noticing she was about to get rekked
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



And can you clarify to me that distance by pointing it in meters, km, or feet.

 you can't? okay.





> Finally, we have kakashi dashing with susano towards Kaguya and phasing through her bones, and raikiring her( something she was barely able to avoid from being mortal, while fully keeping her eyes on kakashi).



again it didn't prove anything.





> *Kakashi did all of this before naruto and sasuke even got to her. They initiated the attack, and should have arrived and executed the seal before kakashi, if their speed advantage really existed.*
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


Naruto and Sauce didn't even try to move as shown in panel.








> We know where it was going, right back at naruto, his clones, sasuke, and kakashi with sakura right behind them. Even one of naruto's clones says "It's coming)
> 
> *Before naruto or sasuke even began doing some counter attack or try to dodge, kakashi was already counter attacking not only the one hand coming for them, but other nearby dangerous ones as well.*
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Keep your delusions considering the very panel shows the arms going haywire, in the very next page.






> Explained above therefore irrelevant, but why would minato stopping some kunais from some fodder ninjas be impressive?



I don't know. I didn't claim that. I even said it was not impressive.

 the real question here is  why was kakashi intercepting an arm even if there are multiple of them not even targeting him impressive?





> [Because it's proven that the attack was coming for them, he countered before anybody else did anything about it, and it was an attack coming not from some fodder,


way to ignore the pages you posted yourself.






> Got anything else?



 Oh I got nothing really considering you just proved you don't even know what you are talking about nor proved anything here.
---------------------

Anyway sorry for the late reply, I had a freaking accident earlier.

 I almost lost my house.


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## Finalbeta (May 7, 2016)

They are pretty close IMO but I would bet 100% on Naruto

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (May 8, 2016)

Hasan said:


> I am obviously talking about the left-eye Kamui. *sigh*


And i have already told you why that is the stupidest thing he can do. 



> Kakashi is not lacking in brain cells that he would attempt to warp. . . clones. It compromises his defense. Kamui + Raikiri is his best bet, amidst the clone swarm.


You said that he warps all clones
now youre saying that he is not stupid enough to warp them? 

either way, kakashi cant decipher between clones and original so there goes the first point

secondly kamui raikiri isnt something lol invincible, Naruto is much faster than kakashi and has him outnumbered here.
He simply overpowers his raikiri with his bijuu rasengans and then slams him down once kakashi loses his defense.
GG



> Six Paths chakra mitigated any physical drawbacks he had, and therein lies my contention, even in the next point, when I make mention of it.
> 
> (1) Juubi Jinchuuriki use Six Paths Sage Mode. Your assertion that Naruto's reflexes surpass them, carries no weight.
> (2) Kamui is slower, when the user attempts to warp himself, compared to its other applications.



1. No it does carry weight.
Juubi jins use Six paths senjutsu. But naruto uses six path SM with his kyuubi cloak. They have the same thing, but naruto utilises it far more effectively.

and yes it is backed up by evidence, therefore its not some assertion.
databook 4 confirms that narutos reactions in RSM surpass that of a juubi jins.
Feats from the manga easily confirm that. unless you think that juubito or jin madara cna blitz kaguya?

2. Kamui being slower when you warp yourself is irrelevant.
The gap is still nowhere even close enough to gauge the difference between a fkn TSB and RSM narutos shunshin.

>Madara stated his Limbo is much faster than TSB which were only slightly slower than double kamui.
>Limbo travels the same speed as Jin madara.
>Sasukes ameno blitzed jin madara with no reaction
>Kaguya dodged and reacted to sasukes ameno EVERY SINGLE TIME
>RSM naruto blitzed Kaguya with no reaction.

Just goes to show how slow kamui would be in comparison to naruto.
kakashi is not even reacting to naruto. when even kaguya failed.

inb4 - kamui raikiri blitz kaguya



> I insinuated no such thing.
> 
> Kakashi has better options to hit Naruto with, than Kamui Shurikens.


No. He has *no options whatsoever*
your kamui raikiri strategy is backed up by nothing significant apart from it cutting down every single naruto clone and then naruto himself? lol that argument should not even be taken seriously.



> > Neutralize an attack.
> > Non-factor.


The nukes are only for PS. not that it matters since using PS is perhaps the dumbest thing kakashi can do since he can NEVER match narutos firepower



> Pick one, mate.


I picked both and stated all the coutners




> Did you bother to review the fight, prior to making this claim? Not a single panel, wherein Sasuke tried to dodge Bijuudama and variants, whilst clad in the Susano'o. . . let alone failed.


if he could have dodged them, then he would have opted for that, instead of just getting hit head on.
matter of fact is that he couldnt.

does anyone even have an idea how fast a TBB travels? Let alone when someone as fast as RSM naruto is firing it?



> Impact is imperative, if blast radius is up for consideration.


impact would result in max damage.
but the attack still damages if youre within the blast radius,
6 BDRS catch him and his PS is gone. be it a direct hit or just in blast radius



> Because Kakashi cannot throw in Kamui Shuriken, as you yourself suggested two minutes earlier, to neutralize Bijuudama Rasenshuriken? Or you know, just fly sideways? Or fly sideways, while throwing Kamui Shurikens? Or what is that ethereal winged-construct flying in between the Hexa-Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken?


If Naruto can tag Kaguya,
then he certainly tags something as large as PS. unless youre willing to tell me that PS is magically faster than naruto 

lol flight isnt countering  BDRS. not when naruto himself can fly and ensure that PS gets hit.

Kamui shurikens are only 4. the other 2 BDRS are still hittting.
not to mention that the kamui shuriken warp is not large enough to encompass the entire explosion. NOT EVEN CLOSE




> I see that you chose to address the non-issue, instead of actually trying to provide a feasible counter-measure from within Naruto's arsenal that addresses the problem of intangibility.


INtangibility? naruto knows that he only needs to attack when kakashi himself attacks.
he is MUCH Faster than kakashi and has him outnumbered so much that its not even funny.
kakashi CANNOT attack all of  the narutos at once. and all of his attacks are dodged by sheer speed alone.

the second kakashi becomes solid. he gets slammed down and one shotted.

this will be worse than MS OBito vs Minato



> Hardly. In the most contrived way imaginable, you did only a jutsu-jutsu comparison.
> 
> 
> How does the series' master strategist, standing amidst a swarm of clones, mindfully leave himself vulnerable to accomplish something that would gaurantee his defeat?


Whenever he tries to attack, he is leacving himself vulnerable since he is becoming solid.

master strategist isnt cutting it when the power gap between the 2 is so large that it becomes irrelevant.

itll be like saying that shiikamaru beats mindless juubito because lol strategy.



> Naruto can 'dodge' Kamui (if at all), but has an underlying presumption that there is no distraction involved, and Kakashi will always 'mindlessly' attempt that. To top that, you ignore that Kakashi is able to specify the area at will, and conjuring up a huge one effectively removes any chance of Naruto dodging it.


Can you please name some distractions? ck
and No. i have not ignored a single damn thing.

I have already addressed how naruto dodges kamui lol diff. no amount of distractions are cutting it when kakashi himself gets attack before naruto does. given the fact that he is outnumbered and outclassed



> The Perfect Susano'o cannot breach Naruto's defenses, but Kamui can. . . and you ignore that.


kamui can. but then it never lands.



> No, it is not. Knowing whose eyes they actually are, has no impact on the outcome of the battle. That is just silly.
> 
> That is a lot of time.


No its not silly. because obito can only stay inside kakashi for a short amount of time.
because well, hes fkn dead.

not that it matters because even if we ignore the limit, kakashi has absolutely nothing on naruto.

i cannot believe this thread has been prolonging for this long. based entirely on the nonsensical fanfiction that kaguya was somehow blitzed, and some deranged wank that a mere Kamui power with a fragment of rikudo chakra can surpass ALL OF HAGOROMOS YANG plus Kyuubi and bijuus power. smh


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## Hasan (May 8, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> And i have already told you why that is the stupidest thing he can do.



Do you remember what that response was even directed at?


ARGUS said:


> -- kamui gets sensed and dodged


Naruto cannot avoid Kamui, should Kakashi create a huge barrier space—

. . . and you cited Kaguya's Yomotsu Hirasaka as an evidence that he dodges Kamui. 



> You said that he warps all clones
> now youre saying that he is not stupid enough to warp them?
> 
> either way, kakashi cant decipher between clones and original so there goes the first point


Read above. My response was a refutation of the notion that Naruto can dodge Kamui. Kakashi is intelligent enough to know, when he has to attempt it. It certainly is not, when a swarm of clones populate the field.



> secondly kamui raikiri isnt something lol invincible, Naruto is much faster than kakashi and has him outnumbered here.
> He simply overpowers his raikiri with his bijuu rasengans and then slams him down once kakashi loses his defense.
> GG


Kamui + Raikiri, mate. He can remain intangible and, literally dance around the field with Raikiri in his palm, until he wants to strike. Since there are no indicators for the opponent to know for certain whether the move is, in fact, genuine—makes it impossible to counter-attack that actually succeeds. You give Naruto far too much credit for being able to counter such a move—let alone wielded by a man, repeatedly praised for his strategies and trickery.



> 1. No it does carry weight.
> Juubi jins use Six paths senjutsu. But naruto uses six path SM with his kyuubi cloak. They have the same thing, but naruto utilises it far more effectively.
> 
> and yes it is backed up by evidence, therefore its not some assertion.
> ...


That is only a reference to him deflecting the Gudoudama here. It reads next to those panels that his reactions—thanks to the Six Paths Sage Mode—rose up to the point, where he was able to deflect a Juubi Jinchuuriki's attack, thus allowed him to keep up with the latter. 2—How on earth you employ sensory abilities—standalone—more effectively than another? Naruto and Madara have the same level of reflexes, if you go solely by Six Paths Sage Mode. I would argue that Madara has better, given he has Rinnegan as well, but that is not what we are arguing here.



> 2. Kamui being slower when you warp yourself is irrelevant.
> The gap is still nowhere even close enough to gauge the difference between a fkn TSB and RSM narutos shunshin.
> 
> >Madara stated his Limbo is much faster than TSB which were only slightly slower than double kamui.
> ...


Then why use it in articulating your argument? Kakashi only facilitated what was inherently a very slow function in the first place. We have seen him warp things instantly upon activation. Feats, huh. 



> Just goes to show how slow kamui would be in comparison to naruto.
> kakashi is not even reacting to naruto. when even kaguya failed.


He does not need to. Kamui/intangibility is a passive ability. He consciously de-activates it to attack. 2—Do you also realize that Kaguya was low on chakra, and actually needed to recover?



> inb4 - kamui raikiri blitz kaguya


The databook, _you_ just referenced a moment ago, says it is, indeed. 



> No. He has *no options whatsoever*
> your kamui raikiri strategy is backed up by nothing significant apart from it cutting down every single naruto clone and then naruto himself? lol that argument should not even be taken seriously.




ARGUS said:


> No they are not.
> RSM naruto is *far more mobile* than Kaguya in her berserk stage
> 
> As it stands the speed of kamui shuriken is nowhere near sufficient enough to land on naruto



Why on earth would he throw shurikens, when he can just use his left eye to achieve a faster result?  Kamui Shurikens have their use in dealing with Naruto's projectile attacks, but uneconomical, as far as the person is concerned.



> The nukes are only for PS. not that it matters since using PS is perhaps the dumbest thing kakashi can do since he can NEVER match narutos firepower
> 
> I picked both and stated all the coutners


Firepower is a useless parameter, concerning Kamui. Naruto can throw a Bijuudama-Rasenshuriken hundred times more powerful, it still ends up in the Timespace. Kamui is a transportation technique, in case you missed. It is not about matching firepower.



> if he could have dodged them, then he would have opted for that, instead of just getting hit head on.
> matter of fact is that he couldnt.


Implies struggle and eventual failure, when there were none. Sasuke never tried to evade any of Naruto's nukes, because he responded with his own. Heavens. 



> does anyone even have an idea how fast a TBB travels? Let alone when someone as fast as RSM naruto is firing it?


Fast enough that complete Susano'o maneuvered in between them, and got out of their (wait for it). . . blast-radius. . . to safety. 



> impact would result in max damage.
> but the attack still damages if youre within the blast radius,
> 6 BDRS catch him and his PS is gone. be it a direct hit or just in blast radius


Why on earth would there be an explosion, should bijuudama and related fly through the space unexploded? They only explode when there is a contact with something tangible. Kakashi dodges → no contact → no explosion.



> f Naruto can tag Kaguya,
> then he certainly tags something as large as PS. unless youre willing to tell me that PS is magically faster than naruto


Naruto has to aim and fire his nuke-attacks. . .



> lol flight isnt countering  BDRS. not when naruto himself can fly and ensure that PS gets hit.
> 
> Kamui shurikens are only 4. the other 2 BDRS are still hittting.
> not to mention that the kamui shuriken warp is not large enough to encompass the entire explosion. NOT EVEN CLOSE


A single Kamui-Shuriken is considerably larger than a Bijuudama-Shuriken, and instantiates a barrier space exponentially larger than its own size. Given that all six Bijuudama-Rasenshurikens are directed towards Kakashi, two shurikens (at best) are enough to blast all six of them to the Timespace. Also, an explosion starts small. . . it expands.



> INtangibility? naruto knows that he only needs to attack when kakashi himself attacks.
> he is MUCH Faster than kakashi and has him outnumbered so much that its not even funny.
> kakashi CANNOT attack all of  the narutos at once. and all of his attacks are dodged by sheer speed alone.
> 
> ...


It is more important that Naruto knows that Kakashi would actually attack and, there is no way to know for sure—unfortunately-y. Can the user display some creativity? God forbade.  Naruto is not hitting Kakashi, unless there is a huge billboard on the moon that says that "Kakashi will now _really_ try to attack—prepare thine counterattack".



> master strategist isnt cutting it when the power gap between the 2 is so large that it becomes irrelevant.
> 
> itll be like saying that shiikamaru beats mindless juubito because lol strategy.


I am sorry—Is Shikamaru a master strategist with. . . _Hax_? No.




> Can you please name some distractions? ck
> and No. i have not ignored a single damn thing.
> 
> I have already addressed how naruto dodges kamui lol diff. no amount of distractions are cutting it when kakashi himself gets attack before naruto does. given the fact that he is outnumbered and outclassed


The obvious one? Fake attack, and you will most definitely get a re-hash of this and this. Kakashi himself has done this against Pain (of course, he did not have intangibility then, but now he does), and Naruto's personality very much helps in this regard. It would be very un-Kakashi of him to not avail that to his advantage.



> kamui can. but then it never lands.




ARGUS said:


> -- PS lacks the offense to even scratch RSM avatar. And it lacks the defense to tank BDRS/TBB barrages


Making Kamui work is Kakashi's headache, which we are discussing in other parts. You argued that complete Susano'o, and in turn, Kakashi lacked the firepower to breach Naruto's defenses. Kamui breached the best of the defenses.



> No its not silly. because obito can only stay inside kakashi for a short amount of time.
> because well, hes fkn dead.
> 
> not that it matters because even if we ignore the limit, kakashi has absolutely nothing on naruto.


Indra and Ashura were too. Their spirits persisted, when their bodies did not—just like Obito's. And possessed Madara, Hashirama, Sasuke, and Naruto (and countless other ones)—just like Obito possessed Kakashi.



> i cannot believe this thread has been prolonging for this long. based entirely on the nonsensical fanfiction that kaguya was somehow blitzed, and some deranged wank that a mere Kamui power with a fragment of rikudo chakra can surpass ALL OF HAGOROMOS YANG plus Kyuubi and bijuus power. smh


I don't believe that any of us denied that Naruto has much greater raw power than Kakashi, even Kaguya did (much more than even Naruto). _Mere-Kamui_ is just unreasonably overpowered; given to _Brains_ to make sure it retains its glory (title of the chapter, actually) by wrapping up the fight with final villain—Kamui GG was canonized. Afterwards, the author made sure to remove it from the story altogether. Kakashi stole the fight, and  the Hokage-title.


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