# Sephiroth vs Goku (23rd Bodoukai)



## Nevermind (Aug 13, 2012)

Alright so before the recent FF calcs, this would have been considered a stomp but now that Chaos has shed some more light onto the situation, let's find out who wins here.

It's a better match than that Claymore thread anyway.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

What was Goku's speed, DC and durability calced at?

Never paid attention to DB calcs


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 13, 2012)

what's the current 23-rd speed ?

Goku's firepower is bigger then Sephys barriers even with Chaos upgrades, right ?


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## Nevermind (Aug 13, 2012)

He dodged Piccolo's ki blast which Chaos calced to be Mach 41 or something.

DC apparently chaos thinks Piccolo's island razer was something like 200 gigatons but I pointed out some things that would make it even higher.

Durability well, you know Goku was at the epicenter of that attack.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Fuck, well barring some hax Sephiroth seems to have no hope, only advantage he has is speed.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 13, 2012)

Goku has firepower and durability down pat. Even with a speed increase for Sephy. A single Kamehameha would roast him.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> He dodged Piccolo's ki blast which Chaos calced to be Mach 41 or something.



yep



> DC apparently chaos thinks Piccolo's island razer was something like 200 gigatons but I pointed out some things that would make it even higher.



dem tsunamis


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## Nevermind (Aug 13, 2012)

Were you in that MSN convo?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 13, 2012)

> DC apparently chaos thinks Piccolo's island razer was something like 200 gigatons but I pointed out some things that would make it even higher.


200 ? 

that calc needs to be done, seriously


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Were you in that MSN convo?



pretty sure I was, yeah


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Were you in that MSN convo?



Don't rub it in 

Though yeah, still seems like a stomp, no offence I think the Claymore thread might be a bit better


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## Nevermind (Aug 13, 2012)

Does Seph have some hax somewhere?


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

he can cast illusions, he can turn intagible, that's about it off the top of my head


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Does Seph have some hax somewhere?


he uses hax hair care products :33


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Sephiroth vs Sesshomaru

Hair vs hair match

I remember when I made that thread :heston


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 13, 2012)

Dodging mach 41 blasts? So he got slower during the first part of dbz when he was only going mach 30 or so when he came back from King Kai's?

Anyway, What can Goku do against Sephiroth's TK? His illusions? He should also have the fire power to harm Goku with his spells and spells was something Sephiroth was very proficient with and he was still known for his strength as a swordsman if that tells you anything. Goku at this time was strong but physically, in CC Sephiroth's casual swing's shockwaves destroy giant metal canons. Much more impressive than knocking Chichi off her feet.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

> He should also have the fire power to harm Goku with his spells and spells was something



Sephiroth is at single digit gigaton, Goku is supposdely able to tank 400, do the math


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## KaiserWombat (Aug 13, 2012)

Does Sephiroth have access to Materia? Which Materia?

That seems to be the crux of any Sephy thread that's remotely viable to be taken seriously.

Without Materia is just a lolfest that results in Goku murdering him with a blink of his eyes.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 13, 2012)

I was told AC Seph doesn't need materia


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## Adamant soul (Aug 13, 2012)

KaiserWombat said:


> Does Sephiroth have access to Materia? Which Materia?
> 
> That seems to be the crux of any Sephy thread that's remotely viable to be taken seriously.
> 
> Without Materia is just a lolfest that results in Goku murdering him with a blink of his eyes.



He doesn't need materia for magic but even with it he has nothing to take Goku down with. One Kamehameha and he is one dead swordsman.


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> Sephiroth is at single digit gigaton, Goku is supposdely able to tank 400, do the math



They said 200. Also, I don't think it's that high and you don't need that kind of strength to harm Goku at that level either. Unless you think every time he gets hurt by a move it's over that type of damage output. There is also the fact only like 5-10 minutes happened between the time the crowd and announcer left to the time the announcer came back. Now either that announcer is a fast fucker and got out of range of the explosion with no harm whatsoever...or it isn't as big as you think.

The biggest NUKE is 50 megatons. 1,400 times the power of the nukes that destroyed Nagasaki and Hiroshima.

A megaton=1,000,000 tons so that's 50,000,000 tons of explosives.

Gigaton=1,000,000,000 tons. So 200 mehatons is 200,000,000,000 tons.

So what you're saying is a blast 4,000 times more powerful than the Tsar bomb wouldn't kill someone who only had 5 minutes to run at best? I don't think so.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 13, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> So what you're saying is a blast 4,000 times more powerful than the Tsar bomb wouldn't kill someone who only had 5 minutes to run at best? I don't think so.



it doesn't change the fact that it _flattened the entirety of the island's surface and caused tidal waves_

so yeah, he's that damn durable

also, crowd was gone, the announcer hid in the hole Tien made before the explosion occurred (god knows how that worked but eh) 

feats are feats, regardless


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 13, 2012)

Why people keep bringing up Materia as if all spells were quantifiable?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 13, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Why people keep bringing up Materia as if all spells were quantifiable?



they aren't


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## Adamant soul (Aug 13, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Why people keep bringing up Materia as if all spells were quantifiable?



Sephiroth has good magic feats like blanketing the sky with clouds that can translate into power for offensive spells. Otherwise you got me.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Sephiroth created a barrier which could tank multiple gigatons, common sense tells us he can put that kind of power into stronger spells like Shadow Flare and Supernova

Not that it helps here though.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 13, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Sephiroth has good magic feats like blanketing the sky with clouds that can translate into power for offensive spells. Otherwise you got me.



Yeah, that's the shit thing. He has his own abilities but the idea that he'd simply Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga his way to victory seems all kinds of retarded when we don't know jack shit what actual output they produce. Someone like Kadaj with Materia does a generic Force Lightning type spell along with summoning Bahamut Sin. Not like we know every tom dick and harry's abilities and what not.

I mean hell, someone like Terra for example is powerful but stating usage of Meltdown and Ultima, while part of her move set, we don't know jack what they do in reality.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> They said 200.



Well this proves I have the memory of a goldfish, though CD covered the rest/


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## Adamant soul (Aug 13, 2012)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Yeah, that's the shit thing. He has his own abilities but the idea that he'd simply Firaga, Blizzaga, Thundaga his way to victory seems all kinds of retarded when we don't know jack shit what actual output they produce. Someone like Kadaj with Materia does a generic Force Lightning type spell along with summoning Bahamut Sin. Not like we know every tom dick and harry's abilities and what not.



I'm with you, I mean FFXIII/XIII-2 is the only FF where we actually most spells used and can get a quantifiable level for them and that only applies to that verse. Other than that we get almost nothing from other FF's and yet people still use the magic argument for them. I mean yeah it sort of makes sense for guys like Kefka, Kuja or Sephiroth who have shown what they can do with magic but other than that nothing..


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

> I mean hell, someone like Terra for example is powerful but stating usage of Meltdown and Ultima, while part of her move set, we don't know jack what they do in reality.



Actually, Chaos had a theory that the power behind her insane flight speed would allow her to put that power behind Ultima considering it's absurd to think it requires more power to fly that fast than to cast Ultima, plus powerscaling from Alexander


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Aug 13, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> I'm with you, I mean FFXIII/XIII-2 is the only FF where we actually most spells used and can get a quantifiable level for them and that only applies to that verse. Other than that we get almost nothing from other FF's and yet people still use the magic argument for them. I mean yeah it sort of makes sense for guys like Kefka, Kuja or Sephiroth who have shown what they can do with magic but other than that nothing..



It'd be one thing if something like Summons/Eidolons/whatever actually had feats like Rydia from FFIV summoning Titan and it up heaved whole mountain ranges. Or Leviathan by itself can create whirlpools. FFIX Eidolons actually do shit. FFX Anima practically one shotting fodder.



> Actually, Chaos had a theory that the power behind her insane flight speed would allow her to put that power behind Ultima considering it's absurd to think it requires more power to fly that fast than to cast Ultima,



She already has feats in base about roasting 50 Magick Tek soldiers in like a few minutes so her shown abilities is set.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

If only Eden from VIII or Ultima from XII was legit...



XIII eidolons are legit
VI
IX as you said 
IV as you said


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

Also the final Aeon from FFX has powerscaling from Sin IIRC


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

> She already has feats in base about roasting 50 Magick Tek soldiers in like a few minutes so her shown abilities is set.



For Terra at the start of the game, based on her flight speed, Ultima would be town level and that's consistent considering that she's above beings of that level.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> For Terra at the start of the game, based on her flight speed, Ultima would be town level and that's consistent considering that she's above beings of that level.



Isn't triple posting fun. Screw the edit button right.


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## Ulti (Aug 13, 2012)

editing is too mainstream

plus i can't be bothered


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## SHM (Aug 13, 2012)

The Penetrator said:


> he can cast illusions, he can turn intagible, that's about it off the top of my head



Teleportation, regeneration, and shapeshifting too. Baically everything Jenova could do and then some.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 13, 2012)

SHM said:


> Teleportation, regeneration, and shapeshifting too.



Teleportation yes but I don't ever recall Sephiroth regenerating at all.


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## Majinvergil (Aug 13, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> He should also have the fire power to harm Goku with his spells and spells was something Sephiroth was very proficient with and he was still known for his strength as a swordsman if that tells you anything. Goku at this time was strong but physically, in CC Sephiroth's casual swing's shockwaves destroy giant metal canons. Much more impressive than knocking Chichi off her feet.



No he doesn't have the fire power to hurt someone who tanked a 200 gigaton Island razor and wtf goku was lifting a giant piccolo.If you're gonna downplay learn with the dupe-kun 

Plus I believe everyone has covered the result of the match.


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## SHM (Aug 13, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> Teleportation yes but I don't ever recall Sephiroth regenerating at all.



His regeneration is not something that would help him very much in battle, but it's there. Like when he regenerated his entire body at the Crater(but took years to do so), or when he regenerated parts of his body as Bizarro(but that could be considered gameplay-mechanics), or even when he continued fighting after having his spine pierced by the Buster-Sword at Nibelheim(but he was in very bad shape afterwards).

Either way, regen is part of his more 'exotic' abilites(aka hax) and I thought it should be mentioned.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 13, 2012)

how does Sephs intangibility work exactly ? density shift ? like Tobi ? becoming energy ?

it's generally a pretty broken power. Why tank when you can slip through the attack


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 13, 2012)

He tanks 200 gigaton explosions but gets beat down by much less the majority of the fight. If you want to say his ability to take explosions is that high, fine. But how do you explain him getting beat down by punches of less caliber than said attack? Lifting up a giant Piccolo is impressive but it really isn't as impressive as the aftershocks of your blows at your weakest shown power destroying giant canon's like nothing. This has nothing to do with downplay. Chaos shook the planet IIRC. Sephiroth is stated to be stronger than Chaos. So how much power would it take to shake the planet?

Sephiroth also has the very essence of magic/materia at his disposal. Sephiroth never tires as stated in the Ultimania. What is to stop Sephiroth from transmuting Goku in to a frog? Sephiroth can also put Goku into an illusion. Sephiroth can also rip his soul right out via Negative Lifestream(In one of the novels, the lifestream ripped out Denzel's parents' souls) 

IIRC correctly, Goku can not fly without Nimbus's help at this point. So that gives Sephiroth a mobility advantage too. Sephiroth has intangiblity and teleportation to compliment him on this as well. Goku has the fire power, but Sephiroth has the hax and mobility and wit to win.


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## Nevermind (Aug 13, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> He tanks 200 gigaton explosions but gets beat down by much less the majority of the fight. If you want to say his ability to take explosions is that high, fine.



There's been a conundrum regarding Dragon Ball being less able to tank punches and kicks than energy attacks for a long time now, but we're trying to find a consistent way around it.

And regardless what you describe is gonna happen in any work of fiction, and Dragon Ball is especially notorious for it.



Full Meta Cooler said:


> IIRC correctly, Goku can not fly without Nimbus's help at this point.



Yes, he can.


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 13, 2012)

Sorry; He doesn't fly well. Because otherwise, I don't get why he needed Nimbus when he went after his brother.


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## SHM (Aug 13, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> how does Sephs intangibility work exactly ? density shift ? like Tobi ? becoming energy ?
> 
> it's generally a pretty broken power. Why tank when you can slip through the attack



Never explained. He just does it.

The way I see it, it's something that only works for physical matter(because we only see him phasing through the floor).


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## Shoddragon (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Does Seph have some hax somewhere?




because of materia ,( which his strongest incarnation doesn't need since he can cast magic without it) most of the magic in final fantasy 7.

plus his ridiculous telekinesis.


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## Shoddragon (Aug 13, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> There's been a conundrum regarding Dragon Ball being less able to tank punches and kicks than energy attacks for a long time now, but we're trying to find a consistent way around it.
> 
> And regardless what you describe is gonna happen in any work of fiction, and Dragon Ball is especially notorious for it.
> 
> ...




this is incorrect. goku was unable to use bukujitsu for the entirety of dragonball part 1 until he somehow learned a very shitty version of it at the end of the piccolo junior fight, after which he couldn't even use it anymore so het let gravity smash him into piccolo.

hardly of use here.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 13, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> But how do you explain him getting beat down by punches of less caliber than said attack?



Still thinking of how to rationalize this.

I'm just part of the camp that finds split durability hard to swallow, especially when energy is all energy.



> Chaos shook the planet IIRC. Sephiroth is stated to be stronger than Chaos. So how much power would it take to shake the planet?



Where is this stated?



> Sephiroth also has the very essence of magic/materia at his disposal.



He's certainly shown gigaton level shit with his magic.  No dice outside of that though.



> Sephiroth never tires as stated in the Ultimania.



Well, you could probably say that upwards of him fighting people generating energy outputs below him, but he's never been shown fighting someone with the power to truly press his stamina.

Kind of leads to no limits fallacy of sorts.

Like I certainly couldn't envision him fighting for a month like Kazuki Muto and Victor from Buso Renkin without feats.



> What is to stop Sephiroth from transmuting Goku in to a frog?



Does he canonically have that spell/would he think to use it?  Also, did frog take away the ability to use magic/ki in game?  Been a while.



> Sephiroth can also put Goku into an illusion.



Then what?



> Sephiroth can also rip his soul right out via Negative Lifestream(In one of the novels, the lifestream ripped out Denzel's parents' souls)



That so?  Haven't heard that to tell the truth.

The novels canon/can I see an exert?



> IIRC correctly, Goku can not fly without Nimbus's help at this point.



Not too well I guess, only used bukujutsu at the end to trick piccolo for the win in the tournament.


> So that gives Sephiroth a mobility advantage too.



Assuming the fight gets to the sky.

Even then, Goku has the firepower to down the dude rather fast with ki.

Though I suppose with the possible hax sephy-chan has, Goku's window for that is rather small.



> Sephiroth has intangiblity and teleportation to compliment him on this as well. Goku has the fire power, but Sephiroth has the hax and mobility and wit to win.



I suppose the soul fuckery and slightly superior speed will help help here.

Otherwise, in a match of pure power, sephiroth isn't really cutting it.


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## Shoddragon (Aug 13, 2012)

sephiroth really isn't all about raw power. when it comes to FF characters a lot of their mojo comes from the wide variety of hax they can produce. he has a lot of different abilities and techniques that is going to help him here.

also I recall the cloud creation feat being calced in the gigaton range no? that's a casual feat used with his telekinesis . I don't see what goku is going to do when he has that force applied all over his body making him unable to move. we've seen that TK in dragonball done by someone as weak as chaotzu could affect someone like 22nd budokai goku so .


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## DestinyDestroyer (Aug 13, 2012)

Goku fanboys vs Sephiroth fanboys.

Now, someone copy-paste this in moviecodec and enjoy the diferring answers


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## Shoddragon (Aug 13, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> Goku fanboys vs Sephiroth fanboys.
> 
> Now, someone copy-paste this in moviecodec and enjoy the diferring answers



does moviecodec have anything to do with this thread on the OBD? no, no it doesn't .


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## DestinyDestroyer (Aug 13, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> does moviecodec have anything to do with this thread on the OBD? no, no it doesn't .



I am not talking about the thread itself, but the characters


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## Shoddragon (Aug 13, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> I am not talking about the thread itself, but the characters



yes yes, I'm aware. still no reason to bring it up.


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 13, 2012)

DestinyDestroyer said:


> Goku fanboys vs Sephiroth fanboys.
> 
> Now, someone copy-paste this in moviecodec and enjoy the diferring answers



Actually we did that back in 2008. Cid and I messed with dbz fans saying Sephiroth would beat Broly handily. and Broly in 2008>Goku of any era of mvc.


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## Majinvergil (Aug 14, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> He tanks 200 gigaton explosions but gets beat down by much less the majority of the fight. If you want to say his ability to take explosions is that high, fine. But how do you explain him getting beat down by punches of less caliber than said attack? Lifting up a giant Piccolo is impressive but it really isn't as impressive as the aftershocks of your blows at your weakest shown power destroying giant canon's like nothing. This has nothing to do with downplay. Chaos shook the planet IIRC. Sephiroth is stated to be stronger than Chaos. So how much power would it take to shake the planet?
> 
> Sephiroth also has the very essence of magic/materia at his disposal. Sephiroth never tires as stated in the Ultimania. What is to stop Sephiroth from transmuting Goku in to a frog? Sephiroth can also put Goku into an illusion. Sephiroth can also rip his soul right out via Negative Lifestream(In one of the novels, the lifestream ripped out Denzel's parents' souls)
> 
> IIRC correctly, Goku can not fly without Nimbus's help at this point. So that gives Sephiroth a mobility advantage too. Sephiroth has intangiblity and teleportation to compliment him on this as well. Goku has the fire power, but Sephiroth has the hax and mobility and wit to win.


I was refering to the fact that you said that goku's best streangh feat was this. 





Full Meta Cooler said:


> Much more impressive than knocking Chichi off her feet.



Dude this is 23rd budokai goku, a weak shown of what he will still be,you got to remember that, against seph at his strongest and this is being debated lol .Others already covered the rest what you said.Goku has the fire power and the durability,but seph has hax.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 14, 2012)

SHM said:


> His regeneration is not something that would help him very much in battle, but it's there. Like when he regenerated his entire body at the Crater(but took years to do so), or when he regenerated parts of his body as Bizarro(but that could be considered gameplay-mechanics), *or even when he continued fighting after having his spine pierced by the Buster-Sword at Nibelheim(but he was in very bad shape afterwards)*.
> 
> Either way, regen is part of his more 'exotic' abilites(aka hax) and I thought it should be mentioned.



The bolded is more endurance than regen, like Whitebeard continuing to fight with half his face melted off but I see your point. Either way Sephiroth still dies from a Kamehameha.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 14, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> He tanks 200 gigaton explosions but gets beat down by much less the majority of the fight. If you want to say his ability to take explosions is that high, fine. But how do you explain him getting beat down by punches of less caliber than said attack? Lifting up a giant Piccolo is impressive but it really isn't as impressive as the aftershocks of your blows at your weakest shown power destroying giant canon's like nothing. This has nothing to do with downplay. *Chaos shook the planet IIRC. Sephiroth is stated to be stronger than Chaos.* So how much power would it take to shake the planet?
> 
> Sephiroth also has the very essence of magic/materia at his disposal. Sephiroth never tires as stated in the Ultimania. What is to stop Sephiroth from transmuting Goku in to a frog? Sephiroth can also put Goku into an illusion. Sephiroth can also rip his soul right out via Negative Lifestream(In one of the novels, the lifestream ripped out Denzel's parents' souls)
> 
> IIRC correctly, Goku can not fly without Nimbus's help at this point. So that gives Sephiroth a mobility advantage too. Sephiroth has intangiblity and teleportation to compliment him on this as well. Goku has the fire power, but Sephiroth has the hax and mobility and wit to win.



At the bolded. The statement you are referring to came before Dirge of Cerberus came out therefore we don't know how Sephiroth compares to Chaos therefore we go by feats. Guess what, Chaos has better feats, especially the country+ level explosion tanking at the end of the game.


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## Tir (Aug 14, 2012)

Adamant soul said:


> At the bolded. The statement you are referring to came before Dirge of Cerberus came out therefore we don't know how Sephiroth compares to Chaos therefore we go by feats. Guess what, Chaos has better feats, especially the country+ level explosion tanking at the end of the game.



Word of God said otherwise. Not like we can use it as we dont know how strong Sephy would be. If Chaos supposed to be stronger than Sephy, there is no need for Cloud to beat him, Chaos could do it.


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## SHM (Aug 14, 2012)

Tir said:


> Word of God said otherwise. Not like we can use it as we dont know how strong Sephy would be. If Chaos supposed to be stronger than Sephy, there is no need for Cloud to beat him, Chaos could do it.



Feats 'talk' louder than quotes, at least here in the OBD. Especially when the creators' words contradict the pre-established logic of their own work. For example, not only do Chaos and Omega have more impressive feats than Sephiroth, but they are more impressive creatures overall, each one being the represantation of a Lifestream. Hell, Omega was what Sephiroth wanted to be in FFVII! So it's completely illogical to assume that Sephiroth is stronger, without any proof.
Not to mention that they were talking about his will/mind, not overall power. Sephiroth's will _is_ the strongest in FFVII, but that's that.

And there could have been many reasons for Vincent not using Chaos... His lack of control over it, his fear and distaste for it, Vincent not knowing how to channel all of it's power yet, him believing that Cloud could do it by himself, etc.


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 14, 2012)

I think the statement is pretty clear. Plus the games themselves pretty much confirm that Sephiroth>Chaos. Omega is part of the Planet. He was created by it. Meaning he would be below Minerva. Sephiroth transcends that level when he corrupted the lifestream and proved he is above death. His will was so powerful after FF7, 3 different physical manifestations were formed. Chaos was lost in the lifestream. In fact both Chaos and Omega returned to the Planet. Sephiroth was literally too powerful to return.


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## Majinvergil (Aug 14, 2012)

Except here we go by what has been shown,feats,and not statments. " Especially when the creators' words contradict the pre-established logic of their own work". You can't compare sephiroth to Chaos and Omega when both have feats and are way more impressive then him,it wouldn't make sense to say that sephiroth is stronger then both without proof. If it was that way cell would be a solar system buster since he said he could do it lol


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## Full Meta Cooler (Aug 14, 2012)

There is proof that he is stronger. Not only did the creators say there could never be someone stronger than Sephiroth in the FF7 world, the games confirm it. The fact that Sephiroth's spirit doesn't return to the Planet and Omega and Chaos's does proves this.

You have to remember Jenova was taking planets' lifestreams way before the events of FF7. Omega was an aspect of The Planet. A defense mechanism in case the planet was dying. Omega was made to CONTAIN the energy like water can be contained in a bottle. Sephiroth was going to take the actual energy and add it to his own power. Much different. One needed to be durable to contain the spiritual power of the lifestream(Omega) the other was going to absorb it's energy(Sephiroth)

Also, I know this site goes by reasonable powerscaling. So how much more clear that Sephiroth>Omega does it need to be? The creators said there can be no one above him. The games suggest it as well.


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## Nevermind (Aug 14, 2012)

Majinvergil said:


> Except here we go by what has been shown,feats,and not statments.



Statements are examined on a case by case basis.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 14, 2012)

Full Meta Cooler said:


> There is proof that he is stronger. Not only did the creators say there could never be someone stronger than Sephiroth in the FF7 world, the games confirm it. *The fact that Sephiroth's spirit doesn't return to the Planet and Omega and Chaos's does proves this.*
> 
> You have to remember Jenova was taking planets' lifestreams way before the events of FF7. Omega was an aspect of The Planet. A defense mechanism in case the planet was dying. Omega was made to CONTAIN the energy like water can be contained in a bottle. Sephiroth was going to take the actual energy and add it to his own power. Much different. One needed to be durable to contain the spiritual power of the lifestream(Omega) the other was going to absorb it's energy(Sephiroth)
> 
> Also, I know this site goes by reasonable powerscaling. So how much more clear that Sephiroth>Omega does it need to be? The creators said there can be no one above him. The games suggest it as well.



Yeah because the bolded totally proves he can hurt guys who are country level+ when he has never shown anything remotely close to that. You can dance around it until you're blue in the face but it still doesn't change the fact they both have shown FAR better feats on screen than Sephiroth has and thus are stronger. What Sephiroth was going to do doesn't matter either since he never pulled it off. He lacks the feats to suggest he is stronger than Omega or Chaos end of story.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 14, 2012)

I'm just kind of confused how possessing superior will power translates to requiring power above Omega and Chaos.

Having a weaker will doesn't translate to being incapable of being above sephy-chan in terms of raw power.  It just means Sephiroth has far superior mental fortitude... which doesn't seem spectacularly easy (if even possible) to correlate to his more destructive powers.

If you could provide such a correlation, I'd be more than willing to concede though.


----------



## Majinvergil (Aug 14, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Statements are examined on a case by case basis.


Yeah if the statement doesn't contradict


----------



## familyparka (Aug 14, 2012)

Can't believe this is still going...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 14, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Still thinking of how to rationalize this.
> 
> I'm just part of the camp that finds split durability hard to swallow, especially when energy is all energy.



I've presented a consistent theory for this several times, but everyone seems to ignore it because they view me as a DBZ downplayer (despite the fact that it wouldn't really do anything to downplay DBZ in cross-universe matches)


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 14, 2012)

you mean that ki thing or whatever in relation to power levels to explain lack of collateral damage. right  

meh, pretty sure no one argued about that and doesn't change anything like you say 

the same ki blast that SPC used to severely injure SSJ2 Gohan would splatter, say, Naruto or anyone else of lesser durability 

still comes down to whether or not you have feats to hurt and injure DBZ characters


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 14, 2012)

Well it's more like interaction between ki blasts and their passive ki defenses. Basically the end result is that whenever a character gets hurt by a blast or physical attack that does little collateral damage, the attack actually was that weak, but they are capable of using much stronger attacks if they desire. The weaker attacks hurt their enemies because a higher PL can create attacks that nullify their ki defenses.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 14, 2012)

so basically 



Crimson Dragoon said:


> still comes down to whether or not you have feats to hurt and injure DBZ characters



good to know


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes, basically.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 14, 2012)

anyway, wasn't that statement about Seph being STRONGEST ONE THERE IS IN VII before Omega Weiss and Chaos Vinny came into the scene 

you don't even have to disregard it, you could just say "yeah cool, he's the strongest at that time" if that's the case


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 14, 2012)

I wouldn't know, practically all of my FF knowledge is derived from reading forums and watching Spoony's reviews


----------



## Tir (Aug 15, 2012)

I wouldn't go against Word of God no matter what. Contradicting or not, he can just make a new game where Sephy went on rampage and destroy Omega and Chaos with ease. It's just that simple. 

Just because DoC came out later, doesn't mean the saying that says Sephy is the strongest in FF VII verse becomes invalid. The creator never said so. As I still couldnt find any statement that says Omega and Chaos Vinny stronger than Sephy from the creator. From fans, a lot.


Then again, as Sephy never shown any feats like that, it's unusable.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 15, 2012)

Tir said:


> I wouldn't go against Word of God no matter what.



not how it works here, I'm afraid


----------



## Adamant soul (Aug 15, 2012)

Tir said:


> I wouldn't go against Word of God no matter what. Contradicting or not, he can just make a new game where Sephy went on rampage and destroy Omega and Chaos with ease. It's just that simple.
> 
> Just because DoC came out later, doesn't mean the saying that says Sephy is the strongest in FF VII verse becomes invalid. The creator never said so. As I still couldnt find any statement that says Omega and Chaos Vinny stronger than Sephy from the creator. From fans, a lot.
> 
> ...



Except as said before we don't accept statements unless they are backed up in-verse with feats and have no contradictions. Omega Weiss and Chaos Vincent both have blatantly superior feats to Sephiroth so until we see Sephiroth fight either and win he would get his shit wrecked by them.

If we went by statements, we'd have things like hotter than the sun Amaterasu, light speed Kuma and Solar system busting Cell and none of those just like the Sephiroth is the strongest in FFVII verse have the feats to back that shit up.


----------



## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah, I have to admit I thought the split durability stuff for DBZ was freaking stupid.  I mean you can't always show the effects of punches sometimes you have to powerscale from durability.

It's the same reason the PPG don't kill everyone when they go FTL speeds and break the sound barrier repeatedly.  He needs the planet somewhat intact to tell the story.


----------



## Shoddragon (Aug 15, 2012)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> Yeah, I have to admit I thought the split durability stuff for DBZ was freaking stupid.  I mean you can't always show the effects of punches sometimes you have to powerscale from durability.
> 
> It's the same reason the PPG don't kill everyone when they go FTL speeds and break the sound barrier repeatedly.  He needs the planet somewhat intact to tell the story.



the big difference between those if power puff girls have shown definitive FTL speed and some good strength like buttercup easily lifting up a guy who was lifting mount Everest at the same time.

probably the best physical feat in dragonball was gotenks slamming buu into the ground, creating what appeared to be a town sized crater that was pretty deep.

the reason people talk about split durability is that dragonball physical feats are just so incredibly unimpressive yet constitute most of the damage characters take.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 15, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> probably the best physical feat in dragonball was gotenks slamming buu into the ground, creating what appeared to be a town sized crater that was pretty deep.



wrong, it's Buutenks slamming Gohan's ki blast through the planet, which is hilariously above town level it's not even funny

I will give no fucking shits about anyone who says otherwise, it's purely physical


----------



## Shoddragon (Aug 15, 2012)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> wrong, it's Buutenks slamming Gohan's ki blast through the planet, which is hilariously above town level it's not even funny
> 
> I will give no fucking shits about anyone who says otherwise, it's purely physical





how is hitting a ball of ki a physical feat? it's hitting ki. which is energy. how is hitting energy quantifiable?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Shoddragon said:


> how is hitting a ball of ki a physical feat? it's hitting ki. which is energy. how is hitting energy quantifiable?



All the momentum of that ki blast after buu hit it?

All of it was imparted by Buu's strike.

And unless you show me ki randomly pulverizing rock just sitting there in ball form?  You can only say it was the momentum of Buu's spike that forced it through the fucking planet.

I'd like to note, ki only destroys in 2 ways in DB.

Momentum and exploding.

Guess what the ki didn't do here?


----------



## Fang (Aug 15, 2012)

So we all agree Goku punches in Sephiroth's face solely because in-character even with bloodlust the dork will give some stupid melodramatic attempt at a epic dialogue and Goku wouldn't care?

Yeah we do.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 15, 2012)

I think we have a verdict


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> All the momentum of that ki blast after buu hit it?
> 
> All of it was imparted by Buu's strike.
> 
> ...



Actually it has also shown cutting/slicing and melting.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Actually it has also shown cutting/slicing and melting.



Cutting/slicing can typically be attributed to shit like momentum (be it the ki is spinning or thrown).  And the fact they can give it an edge.

Not really seeing shit like Kienzen just slicing up shit sitting there motionless Mike.  Didn't it basically work like a thrown buzz saw?

And melting does tend to accompany explosions at times.

Unless I'm forgetting a feat where it melted shit while sitting still.

Doesn't really hurt my points either way Mike.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

Has ki ever damaged anything while it was "sitting still"?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Has ki ever damaged anything while it was "sitting still"?



Not that I recall, hence why I feel rather comfortable with my assessment of Buu's feat honestly.

I'd figure if a scan of that existed, you'd have saved it by now.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

I'm not sure. But my point is that when it's moving it can have multiple types of damage effects (for example Frieza's death beam is a piercing attack).


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm not sure. But my point is that when it's moving it can have multiple types of damage effects (for example Frieza's death beam is a piercing attack).



You're being pedantic.

It pierces like a bullet.

How does a bullet pierce shit?

Momentum.

All energy acts the same way, just depends on how its imparted.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

You think that beam pierced Vegeta with nothing more than KE? 
If it was a rock that Buu had deflected back at Gohan, I don't think the effects would have been remotely the same.


----------



## Fang (Aug 15, 2012)

Not if it was roughly ovoid shaped rock that was punched straight into his chest, it would pierce through him with KE as well, he has a point EM.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> You think that beam pierced Vegeta with nothing more than KE?



I have reason to believe otherwise?

Its fast moving, it wouldn't be harming vegeta without said movement (because, as we both noted, ki doesn't tend to destroy shit sitting still) and it didn't explode.



> If it was a rock that Buu had deflected back at Gohan, I don't think the effects would have been remotely the same.



Take that "I don't think" out of there and actually present an argument that supports it dude.

Because you don't have a sufficient one backing it up.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 15, 2012)

Piercing is still kinetic energy. Bullets have kinetic energy when they pierce shit.

And anyway, unless this somehow applies to 23rd Bodoukai Goku, it's kind of not relevant here.


----------



## Fang (Aug 15, 2012)

Nevermind this is a terrible thread, thinking a shit character like DARKNESS from Final Fantasy VII could take on Goku, minus 10 points.

@Chaos, in fact dude, wasn't there a training scene  in the manga with Gohan and Goten where Goten was throwing rocks at Gohan and they were drilling through the stone bluffs behind Gohan?


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 15, 2012)

Just wanted to see how things would go with the recent calcs, Fang. 

And yes, there was Fang.

There was.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah, there was a scene like that with rocks and Goten throwing them at Gohan.

Though I'm not sure if they drilled through the mountain, or just caused a large chunk of it to collapse.

And to be fair to nevermind, I've been doing a ton of calcs for FF in general, and he was just curious to see if the results changed up a bit


----------



## Fang (Aug 15, 2012)

Nevermind said:


> Just wanted to see how things would go with the recent calcs, Fang.
> 
> And yes, there was Fang.
> 
> There was.



Why didn't you use Negima, we have an established order with how we do things man.

Ronpaul2012.png 

@Chaos, do you have scans of it just for the hell of it, I want to see them again.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I have reason to believe otherwise?
> 
> Its fast moving, it wouldn't be harming vegeta without said movement (because, as we both noted, ki doesn't tend to destroy shit sitting still) and it didn't explode.



So Frieza could fire a slow ki blast at Vegeta, and it would just bounce off him? Despite Frieza being so much stronger?



> Take that "I don't think" out of there and actually present an argument that supports it dude.
> 
> Because you don't have a sufficient one backing it up.



Argument is that expecting the exact same mechanics of a ball of energy and a solid object is unfounded. I mean we have examples of ki blasts that carve large trails into the ground, pulverizing/vaporizing/doing whatever to the rock on the way, which a physical object would not. This happens before they explode.



Fang said:


> Nevermind this is a terrible thread, thinking a shit character like DARKNESS from Final Fantasy VII could take on Goku, minus 10 points.
> 
> @Chaos, in fact dude, wasn't there a training scene  in the manga with Gohan and Goten where Goten was throwing rocks at Gohan and they were drilling through the stone bluffs behind Gohan?



Yes, but that's hardly comparable to punching a rock through an entire planet. More like it would shatter partway through or just make a large explosion/crater.


----------



## Fang (Aug 15, 2012)

The context is KE dude, your missing the tangent here.


----------



## Nevermind (Aug 15, 2012)

Fang said:


> Why didn't you use Negima, we have an established order with how we do things man.



Thought Goku could use a thread. 

And is Goku beating up some terrible cunt a bad thing?


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> So Frieza could fire a slow ki blast at Vegeta, and it would just bounce off him? Despite Frieza being so much stronger?



The way the blast functions?  I don't see the ki harming vegeta without exploding, and I'm given no reason to believe otherwise Mike.





> Argument is that expecting the exact same mechanics of a ball of energy and a solid object is unfounded.



Not really.



> I mean we have examples of ki blasts that carve large trails into the ground, pulverizing/vaporizing/doing whatever to the rock on the way, which a physical object would not.



They carve them into the ground via their momentum before they explode.

If you can establish that the ki would be harmful without the explosion/momentum?  I'll concede.

Until then?  You're shit out of luck Mike.  You can't acknowledge one thing here without the other.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

Fang said:


> The context is KE dude, your missing the tangent here.



I'm saying you can't assume all of the damage done by that blast was KE. After all, it did create a sizable explosion/blast radius when it exited the planet, and the explosion was the same color as the ki blast itself in the colored version.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> I'm saying you can't assume all of the damage done by that blast was KE. After all, it did create a sizable explosion/blast radius when it exited the planet, and the explosion was the same color as the ki blast itself in the colored version.



It didn't explode Mike 

We clearly saw it traveling out into space 

After expelling mountain ranges worth of rock out of our planet's atmospehere.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Aug 15, 2012)

Fang said:


> Why didn't you use Negima, we have an established order with how we do things man.
> 
> Ronpaul2012.png



we can't defy tradition


----------



## Roman55 (Aug 15, 2012)

It saddens me when tradition is broken.

also lolphotobucket


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Well, I'll get back to whatever rebuttal you leave later Mike.

My screen just inverted color, so I'm assuming some virus or spyware got me.

Off to fix that shit


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 15, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The way the blast functions?  I don't see the ki harming vegeta without exploding, and I'm given no reason to believe otherwise Mike.



I'd see it burning/melting through him easily. To think Namek saga Vegeta can shrug off a ki blast from Frieza is just silly.



> Not really.



Why? They are clearly not the same thing and they behave differently.



> They carve them into the ground via their momentum before they explode.



How would that "carve" into the ground and look just like a vaporization effect?



> If you can establish that the ki would be harmful without the explosion/momentum?  I'll concede.
> 
> Until then?  You're shit out of luck Mike.  You can't acknowledge one thing here without the other.



Like I said, there was an explosion as it exited the planet.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 15, 2012)

Wow...  got bored of waiting for the fucking scanning to finish fast.

Fuck it, I can respond now.



Endless Mike said:


> I'd see it burning/melting through him easily. To think Namek saga Vegeta can shrug off a ki blast from Frieza is just silly.



I find it silly you think that a technique, designed for both piercing and speed, would be able to drive itself through vegeta without the necessary components its shown to require while being used.

Seriously dude, post some evidence of this, or drop the point. 



> Why? They are clearly not the same thing and they behave differently.



Because we are only shown the ki moving and pulverizing the shit it connects with.

Without moving?  It does jackshit.

Ergo?  It requires momentum to cause the shit it does.

I love Occam's razor, don't you?



> How would that "carve" into the ground and look just like a vaporization effect?



Because you're arbitrarily throwing around the word vaporization without evidence of it actually being vaporization?

Because you're ignoring how ki has no inherent heat to it without movement?

Guess what would cause that heat Mike?

Certainly not friction, nah, too fucking out there for the blasts that don't explode 



> Like I said, there was an explosion as it exited the planet.



Are you just fucking blind or in denial?

The ki blast didn't explode.

Its still there, traveling into space.

My god, you're fucking reaching hard and basing your argument off a visual effect


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> It didn't explode Mike
> We clearly saw it traveling out into space
> 
> After expelling mountain ranges worth of rock out of our planet's atmospehere.



My point was it created an explosion when it reached the surface. Not that the entire thing exploded, just some of it.

BTW here is Gotenks burning/disintegrating parts of Buu with ki that neither exploded or used momentum:



Here is Cell being injured by Gohan's Kamehameha which did not explode, and it wasn't momentum as he wasn't pushed back into space by it:



Here he is injured by Vegeta's Final Flash, which didn't explode on him or push him back with momentum: 



Here is how Cell melted the time machine from the inside. If it was an explosion it would have blown the whole thing up.



Here is Cell hit by Goku's Kamehameha. You can see that it does deliver some KE, but only enough to knock him back a few meters (and if you think that is enough to really hurt him you are crazy). It also doesn't explode on him, but it destroys the upper part of his body:



Here are Cell and Gohan's Kamehamehas causing damage and shaking the earth while they are staying in place and struggling against each other (not exploded):



Here is Buu having part of his body destroyed by a ki blast that doesn't explode or push him back with momentum:



Do you want more? Because I can find them


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Wow...  got bored of waiting for the fucking scanning to finish fast.
> 
> Fuck it, I can respond now.
> 
> ...



Because the piercing is more than just kinetic?



> Seriously dude, post some evidence of this, or drop the point.



See my last post.




> Because we are only shown the ki moving and pulverizing the shit it connects with.
> 
> Without moving?  It does jackshit.



See above.



> Because you're arbitrarily throwing around the word vaporization without evidence of it actually being vaporization?
> 
> Because you're ignoring how ki has no inherent heat to it without movement?
> 
> ...



Yeah, friction can cause all of that stuff I posted 



> Are you just fucking blind or in denial?
> 
> The ki blast didn't explode.
> 
> ...



I didn't say the whole thing exploded. Stop with the strawman. I said it caused an explosion as it exited the planet. And considering that explosion was the same color as the blast, it was almost certainly a ki effect.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 16, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> My point was it created an explosion when it reached the surface. Not that the entire thing exploded, just some of it.



Yes Mike.

Show me that ever happening outside of this blast.

Its a fucking visual effect 



> BTW here is Gotenks burning/disintegrating parts of Buu with ki that neither exploded or used momentum:



A constant beam, acting something like a shredder, while using friction of the blast to burn it away.

Great example Mike, I'm impressed 





> Here is Cell being injured by Gohan's Kamehameha which did not explode, and it wasn't momentum as he wasn't pushed back into space by it:



Same shit, different feat.

The beam eroding him as it moves past his body.

He doesn't need to be pushed into space by the blast (like vegeta was once over powered by Goku's kamehameha in the saiyan arc).



> Here he is injured by Vegeta's Final Flash, which didn't explode on him or push him back with momentum:



Same shit, different feat.

You're not trying very hard Mike.



> Here is how Cell melted the time machine from the inside. If it was an explosion it would have blown the whole thing up.



Friction of the blast causing the heat.  Not really seeing anything I can't wave it away using that.



> Here is Cell hit by Goku's Kamehameha. You can see that it does deliver some KE, but only enough to knock him back a few meters (and if you think that is enough to really hurt him you are crazy). It also doesn't explode on him, but it destroys the upper part of his body:



Shredded his body up as it passed him by.

Its clearly caused by the momentum of the blast passing right by him.



> Here are Cell and Gohan's Kamehamehas causing damage and shaking the earth while they are staying in place and struggling against each other (not exploded):



Constantly expelling ki, which is shredding the environment around them, while the clash of the blasts is causing the planet to shake.

Your point?





> Here is Buu having part of his body destroyed by a ki blast that doesn't explode or push him back with momentum:



You're kind of fixated on the whole being pushed backwards thing, while its entirely irrelevant here dude 



> Do you want more? Because I can find them



I don't want you to watse your time if you're only going to offer more of the same buddy


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 16, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Because the piercing is more than just kinetic?



Prove it.



> Yeah, friction can cause all of that stuff I posted



Kind of can given how everything is a fucking constant stream of energy 



> I didn't say the whole thing exploded. Stop with the strawman. I said it caused an explosion as it exited the planet. And considering that explosion was the same color as the blast, it was almost certainly a ki effect.



I'm not strawmaning jack you ponce.

Show me when only part of a blast has ever exploded.

Its a fucking visual effect dude, being the same color is irrelevant here.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yes Mike.
> 
> Show me that ever happening outside of this blast.
> 
> Its a fucking visual effect



Then wouldn't the entire exit hole size you scaled and the rocks flying into space also be a "visual effect"? 

You're the one making excuses now.



> A constant beam, acting something like a shredder, while using friction of the blast to burn it away.
> 
> Great example Mike, I'm impressed



Who's the one in denial now? That was clearly a melting beam. You think it's causing friction against the floor or something?



> Same shit, different feat.
> 
> The beam eroding him as it moves past his body.
> 
> He doesn't need to be pushed into space by the blast (like vegeta was once over powered by Goku's kamehameha in the saiyan arc).



Why? Because you say so? Obviously it didn't have any great momentum, and it didn't explode, so how did it damage him? Burning/melting/vaporizing effects.



> Same shit, different feat.
> 
> You're not trying very hard Mike.



I dug up all of these scans. You're just making excuses.



> Friction of the blast causing the heat.  Not really seeing anything I can't wave it away using that.



What blast? A blast inside the cockpit would have blown the whole thing up. He used ki to melt his way out.



> Shredded his body up as it passed him by.
> 
> Its clearly caused by the momentum of the blast passing right by him.



That's stupid. If the momentum was enough to injure him so badly, it would have done more than just knocked him back a few meters. Unless you are saying that Cell's durability is so weak he can be torn up by the same force required to knock his body back a few meters.



> Constantly expelling ki, which is shredding the environment around them, while the clash of the blasts is causing the planet to shake.
> 
> Your point?



This is exactly what you asked for - ki damaging stuff without moving. It wasn't even physically touching the parts far from it yet it was still damaging them. And the boundaries of each blast were about the same distance for a long time, it's not like it was spinning around at super speed or anything to make a "shredding" effect. You're just dismissing stuff out of hand and irrationally.



> You're kind of fixated on the whole being pushed backwards thing, while its entirely irrelevant here dude



Um, no. If the ki blast is hurting these characters with its momentum, it would pretty goddamn well push them back. What takes more force/momentum: A wind strong enough to knock you backwards, or a wind strong enough to rip your flesh and body apart?



> I don't want you to watse your time if you're only going to offer more of the same buddy



It would be a waste of time since you're just ignoring the evidence.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Prove it.



Cell using the same attack created a small hole in the ground only:



Yet Gohan needed to dodge it. You figure if it had enough momentum to hurt/kill Gohan, it would have gone through the Earth or something.



> Kind of can given how everything is a fucking constant stream of energy



And that speed of friction somehow isn't even enough to knock their bodies back, or in many cases there are even nothing to cause friction against (Gotenks vaporizing Buu's body parts).



> I'm not strawmaning jack you ponce.
> 
> Show me when only part of a blast has ever exploded.
> 
> Its a fucking visual effect dude, being the same color is irrelevant here.



Why? Because you say so? Is it so impossible for a blast to create secondary explosions? You're just making excuses and ignoring valid evidence.


----------



## Majinvergil (Aug 16, 2012)

Fang said:


> Nevermind this is a terrible thread, thinking a shit character like DARKNESS from Final Fantasy VII could take on Goku, minus 10 points.
> 
> @Chaos, in fact dude, wasn't there a training scene  in the manga with Gohan and Goten where Goten was throwing rocks at Gohan and they were drilling through the stone bluffs behind Gohan?






I believe in the anime it drilled through the mountain, but in the manga it just caused a large chunk of it to collapse.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Aug 16, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Then wouldn't the entire exit hole size you scaled and the rocks flying into space also be a "visual effect"?



Nope, we clearly see the rather large rocks that would be indicative of the hole size.



> You're the one making excuses now.



That so?

Perhaps, kind of tired, I'll read the rest of your points and see if I agree.



> Who's the one in denial now? That was clearly a melting beam. You think it's causing friction against the floor or something?



I sort of figured by passing the energy over the material that is buu's flesh the heat generated by that would burn it away honestly.



> Why? Because you say so? Obviously it didn't have any great momentum, and it didn't explode, so how did it damage him? Burning/melting/vaporizing effects.



A much weaker Goku's Kamehameha propelled Vegeta into the upper atmosphere (would have gone much further, but he managed to roll off, despite the trouble the blasts great speed was giving him in regards to rolling off).

Are you really going to deny the blast of a much stronger Gohan lacked great momentum?  The erosion effect is clearly caused by the blasts movement.

You're completely ignoring the fact these burning/melting/whatever effects aren't present when the ki isn't moving, indicatin that's fucking required for any of that to be even possible.



> I dug up all of these scans. You're just making excuses.



If you say so Mike.

As I've said before, it doesn't take much to convince me, and you haven't attacked to core of my fucking argument.



> What blast? A blast inside the cockpit would have blown the whole thing up. He used ki to melt his way out.



Cell can't send out a small beam of energy without blowing it sky high?

Bullshit.



> That's stupid. If the momentum was enough to injure him so badly, it would have done more than just knocked him back a few meters. Unless you are saying that Cell's durability is so weak he can be torn up by the same force required to knock his body back a few meters.



....

It's like talking to a fucking brick wall.

Ki isn't harmful without movement.

It has no heat without the movement.

The momentum is required for the ki to shred his fucking body up.



> This is exactly what you asked for - ki damaging stuff without moving.



Its still clearly moving.

They're continuously expelling the ki without either giving ground.

What the fuck happened to that ki Mike?



> It wasn't even physically touching the parts far from it yet it was still damaging them.



due to the constant clashing of the 2 incredibly violent streams of energy.



> And the boundaries of each blast were about the same distance for a long time, it's not like it was spinning around at super speed or anything to make a "shredding" effect.



Which makes fuck all sense given they're continuously expelling ki for their blasts continued existance.



> You're just dismissing stuff out of hand and irrationally.



You go with that Mike.



> Um, no. If the ki blast is hurting these characters with its momentum, it would pretty goddamn well push them back.



Not really Mike.  Not only do most of these fuckers have flight to resist such momentum and keep themselves in place, we've been shown rather clearly in the saiyan saga what happens when they don't/can't.



> What takes more force/momentum: A wind strong enough to knock you backwards, or a wind strong enough to rip your flesh and body apart?



I'm going to go with the razor wind, given, you know, most speedy winds can't exactly cut you up to my knowledge, yet they can throw you around like a fucking ragdoll.



> It would be a waste of time since you're just ignoring the evidence.



Of course Mike.  I'm being completely unreasonable here.

I'm terribly sorry 





Endless Mike said:


> Cell using the same attack created a small hole in the ground only:
> 
> 
> 
> Yet Gohan needed to dodge it. You figure if it had enough momentum to hurt/kill Gohan, it would have gone through the Earth or something.



Who's to say it didn't?

Not like such a thin strand of energy would require much more than building level firepower to ram through the rock through the planet.



> And that speed of friction somehow isn't even enough to knock their bodies back, or in many cases there are even nothing to cause friction against (Gotenks vaporizing Buu's body parts).



And yet these burning effects are surprisingly absent when the ki is sitting still from the same fucking attacks causing said burning effects.

Go fucking figure.



> Why? Because you say so? Is it so impossible for a blast to create secondary explosions? You're just making excuses and ignoring valid evidence.



Given its never been showcased before?

I want to see some fucking evidence of consistent "secondary explosions"

You're full of shit Mike.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nope, we clearly see the rather large rocks that would be indicative of the hole size.



And we clearly see an energy explosion the same color of the blast, which is not the color of a normal explosion caused by KE.



> That so?
> 
> Perhaps, kind of tired, I'll read the rest of your points and see if I agree.



Exactly. Claiming Gotenks' attack was some kind of friction drill thing, completely violating Occam's Razor that you love so much.



> I sort of figured by passing the energy over the material that is buu's flesh the heat generated by that would burn it away honestly.



That's a completely convoluted and unevidenced mechanism. Why not just shoot a small exploding blast, surely that would be faster? It was heat/burning/melting, plain and simple.



> A much weaker Goku's Kamehameha propelled Vegeta into the upper atmosphere (would have gone much further, but he managed to roll off, despite the trouble the blasts great speed was giving him in regards to rolling off).



Yes, and that was primarily a momentum attack, while the ones that didn't push them back were primary not.



> Are you really going to deny the blast of a much stronger Gohan lacked great momentum?  The erosion effect is clearly caused by the blasts movement.



Wrong. He wanted to hurt Cell, not push him away. So he used an attack with a primary damage mechanism of heat/disintegration.

If you believe otherwise you need to explain why the momentum required to tear apart Cell's body is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the momentum required to move it.



> You're completely ignoring the fact these burning/melting/whatever effects aren't present when the ki isn't moving, indicatin that's fucking required for any of that to be even possible.



Except that we almost never see ki that's not moving and intended to do damage. And when we did (Gohan vs. Cell beam struggle) it _was_ causing damage to its surroundings, even the parts it wasn't directly touching.



> If you say so Mike.
> 
> As I've said before, it doesn't take much to convince me, and you haven't attacked to core of my fucking argument.



You asked for examples of ki causing damage without using momentum or exploding. I gave you just that, and you just tried to shoehorn everything into being a variant of momentum. It's cart before the horse logic - you assume it must always be explosion or momentum, then you just try to say something is one even if it would make much more sense for it to be something else.

Tien's Kikoho dug a perfectly rectangular hole in the ground. That's obviously not the result of an explosion or momentum (show me either ever digging out a perfectly rectangular hole). But you're just going to come up with some excuse to dismiss it.



> Cell can't send out a small beam of energy without blowing it sky high?
> 
> Bullshit


.

If said beam of energy had enough momentum to create such massive melting effects on the glass via friction, it would have shattered the entire dome/cockpit.



> ....
> 
> It's like talking to a fucking brick wall.



I could say the same goddamn thing to you.



> Ki isn't harmful without movement.



Except when it is... (i.e. Gohan vs. Cell)



> It has no heat without the movement.



Prove it.



> The momentum is required for the ki to shred his fucking body up.



Yeah, and you're ignoring the fact that this implies that Cell's durability is <<<<<< the force required to knock his body back a few meters. That's not a lot - he can't weigh that much.



> Its still clearly moving.
> 
> They're continuously expelling the ki without either giving ground.
> 
> What the fuck happened to that ki Mike?



It was accumulating in the beams and getting denser.



> due to the constant clashing of the 2 incredibly violent streams of energy.



But they weren't actually moving. Certainly not at a speed to burn/melt/shatter stuff with momentum.



> Which makes fuck all sense given they're continuously expelling ki for their blasts continued existance.



Like I said, the beams were getting denser/more intense.



> You go with that Mike.



It's pretty damn obvious.



> Not really Mike.  Not only do most of these fuckers have flight to resist such momentum and keep themselves in place, we've been shown rather clearly in the saiyan saga what happens when they don't/can't.



So let me get this straight: Cell, who was being hurt/ripped apart by the beam, _deliberately tried to remain in the same place so he could continually get hurt by it_, instead of letting himself be pushed or trying to fly somewhere else?

Yeah, you're fucking delusional.



> I'm going to go with the razor wind, given, you know, most speedy winds can't exactly cut you up to my knowledge, yet they can throw you around like a fucking ragdoll.



Exactly. Which means that if the momentum of the blasts was strong enough to rip up their bodies, it would damn well be strong enough to knock them backwards.



> Of course Mike.  I'm being completely unreasonable here.
> 
> I'm terribly sorry



Sarcasm gets you nowhere.

As an aside, why are most of the smilies not working?



> Who's to say it didn't?
> 
> Not like such a thin strand of energy would require much more than building level firepower to ram through the rock through the planet.



Because that kind of stuff is usually shown. Also, argument from ignorance.



> And yet these burning effects are surprisingly absent when the ki is sitting still from the same fucking attacks causing said burning effects.
> 
> Go fucking figure.



Because the characters actually create stationary ki balls for damage purposes, hoping their opponents will just randomly walk into them. Yeah, see how retarded this line of argument is now?



> Given its never been showcased before?
> 
> I want to see some fucking evidence of consistent "secondary explosions"
> 
> You're full of shit Mike.



Did we ever see a blast go through a planet before?

And here's one anyway: Frieza's death ball creates a large blast on the surface of Namek when it hits, so large that Kaio thinks the planet is destroyed. But the blast obviously still exists as it was going down to the core.


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## EraserCannon (Aug 16, 2012)

Goku godstomps. Seph lost against the admirals in a thread.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 16, 2012)

Pretty sure that was before his recent upgrades. Goku still likely wins though (I say "likely" because I'm not an expert on Sephiroth).


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## Eldritch Sukima (Aug 16, 2012)

For some reason this ki blast debate reminds me of the Ouroboros.


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## Derpaholic (Aug 16, 2012)

I love how you provide proof for all what you say . 

300 kilograms would rip goku's arm off .


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## SHM (Aug 16, 2012)

Fang said:


> So we all agree Goku punches in Sephiroth's face solely because in-character even with bloodlust the dork will give some stupid melodramatic attempt at a epic dialogue and Goku wouldn't care?
> 
> Yeah we do.



Too bad for Goku the fight wouldn't be over with just a punch.

And with CIS off, well...


00:22 - 00:25


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