# How strong is Shisui Uchiha?



## Maverick04 (May 2, 2018)

Arguably one of the best featless characters in the series.. If you have to take a wild guess, where would you place Shisui in your tier taking statements into consideration.

Kotoamatsukami in both the eyes, touted to be the strongest genjutsu..His genjutsu skills were considered to be on par with Itachi's..Thats including ability to trap people in a genjutsu and successfully executing it

Kotoamatsukami can be used on EMS users as well.

One isnt simply known for his shunshins unless he is a top tier.

He shares the same feeling as Naruto..So we have a slight idea of Shisui's ninja way.

Obito wanted to acquire his eye.

Kabuto wanted to reanimate him along with Jiraiya, but couldn't.

He probably has a susanoo coz both his eyes have awakened their MS abilities

Along with all these abilities, he is a proficient genjutsu and kenjutsu user..Maybe even shuriken jutsu coz Uchihas are generally good at it


He also has three nature transformations in Katon (probably has an affinity for it), Fuuton and Raiton..And like Itachi he uses Crows..Possibly with his shadow clones and Genjutsu

Who is the strongest he can defeat with full knowledge? And who is the weakest he would lose to?


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## Android (May 2, 2018)

Around Danzo's level.

But unlike Danzo, he can't use Koto on daily basis because of the ridiculous recharge time.


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Around Danzo's level.
> 
> But unlike Danzo, he can't use Koto on daily basis because of the tremendous recharge time.



Shisui's recharge time was probably less than Danzo's 

If it really took 10 years for Shisui's eye to recharge Koto, no one would know about the jutsu's existence because he never would have used it more than once.






I'd say Shisui was at the higher end of jonin spectrum.

He can't be Kage level because, with his skill set, he would have beaten Danzo if that was the case. On the other hand, he was able to flee when attacked by Danzo and, what we can only assume to be, several accompanying ANBU.

The other ANBU just seem to be competent jonin. Skilled, but not excessively so.

However, competent jonin and high jonin are the same people that become low kage level of you give them a good enough jutsu to use. Mangekyo Sharingan is a good enough jutsu even before considering what Koto actually does.

Overall, I'd say Shisui's base skills are competent jonin (better than hype fodder like Yamato) but his Mangekyo makes his overall threat level that of a low kage genjutsu-spammer. His raw power isn't ridiculous, but he has h4x on top of good base skills.




Huh, this pretty much just seems like he's Kakashi with Koto instead of Kamui.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (May 2, 2018)

I'd guess Mid Kage lvl


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## Maverick04 (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Shisui's recharge time was probably less than Danzo's
> 
> If it really took 10 years for Shisui's eye to recharge Koto, no one would know about the jutsu's existence because he never would have used it more than once.
> 
> ...



Is this including a potential susanoo?? Coz he might very well have a V4 susanoo which not many Kages can deal with


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 2, 2018)

All we know is he got beat by Danzo... So I'd put him there or a bit lower.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> All we know is he got beat by Danzo


Danzo plays dirty. He probably got the jump on him off-guard.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Maverick04 (May 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> All we know is he got beat by Danzo... So I'd put him there or a bit lower.


We don't really know what happened in that fight (Or was it really a fight)..Maybe Danzo had his foundation members as backup..Maybe Danzo ambushed the guy when he had his guard down..Or maybe he was beat by Danzo 1v1..Too many possibilities to actually use it as a conclusive evidence


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 2, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> Danzo plays dirty. He probably got the jump on him off-guard.


I'd bet both our asses danzo wouldn't try that on Itachi.... Shisuis is skilled and all but he might be weak when it comes to actual battle Conditions. He should have whipped danzo with the MS he had.


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 2, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> We don't really know what happened in that fight (Or was it really a fight)..Maybe Danzo had his foundation members as backup..Maybe Danzo ambushed the guy when he had his guard down..Or maybe he was beat by Danzo 1v1..Too many possibilities to actually use it as a conclusive evidence


Danzo is a clever guy... He won't get himself into a fight unless he knows he can win.


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## Ishmael (May 2, 2018)

hes in the kage level, skill set is to high to be anywhere lower. I'd say low mid. Dude died at 16 prime wasn't even a thing for him yet.


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> Is this including a potential susanoo?? Coz he might very well have a V4 susanoo which not many Kages can deal with



I doubt he did. 

 It takes a couple extra doses of despair and hatred after unlocking MS to awaken Susano'o. 

Uchiha are usually insane by the time that happens to them.


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## Ishmael (May 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Shisuis is skilled and all but he might be weak when it comes to actual battle Conditions.



Well.. I mean he was besting itachi in combat and pretty much was a mentor for him so.. I wouldn't put him low. Or assume that.


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## Ishmael (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> It takes a couple extra doses of despair



He probably didn't need hatred necessarily as he never came across as a hateful person and was said to have a really good pair Of MS. He likely got his via despair from the war times.


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## Android (May 2, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> 'd bet both our asses


Don't bring my ass into this 


PradyumnaR said:


> Shisuis is skilled and all but he might be weak when it comes to actual battle Conditions. He should have whipped danzo with the MS he had


When don't know if it was an actual battle conditions (I.E neutral conditions, 1 on 1 with both going for the kill). So we can't jump to conclusions.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Fëanáro (May 2, 2018)

Cosmos said:


> When don't know if it was an actual battle conditions (I.E neutral conditions, 1 on 1 with both going for the kill). So we can't jump to conclusions.


Yeah, I mean... it's actually pretty likely that Danzo caught him off-guard. You don't generally expect a respected elder figure of your village to suddenly try to rip your eyeballs out.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Maverick04 (May 2, 2018)

Takaya said:


> respected elder figure


Noone respected that bitch

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## InfiniteHiraishin (May 2, 2018)

Probably mid-Kage.

It's hard to objectively judge Shisui, mainly because Koto is a one time thing and he will be very hindered in IC match-ups. 

Blood-lusted, I don't doubt he'd be able to take on some high Kage due to Kotoamatsukami along with his shunshin hype and Susano'o (every relevant character who gained MS had Susano'o: Madara, Itachi, Sasuke, and Kakashi who immediately has Susano'o once he inherits DMS. Fugaku and Izuna are the other two outside of Shisui who we don't see enough to know if they have manifested it or not, but I will go with a big assumption here.)


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## WorldsStrongest (May 2, 2018)

With both MS abilities that means he had susanoo

He is hyped as superior to Itachi, around the same time period when Itachi clowned Orochimaru

He has speed hype to some degree, as he gained a moniker for it, stands to reason hes at least as fast as Itachi if not faster as Itachi isnt praised as widely for speed

And he had Kotoamatsukami which is a nigh unstoppable genjutsu that apparently doesnt even require eye contact...As Danzo cast it on Mifune while his eye was freaking bandaged over...

Id say hes a solid Mid-High Kage tier

Hes hard to pin down cuz the rest of his arsenal is unknown

But the full power of the MS in a shinobi would qualify him as Mid Kage at the very least


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

I fail to see how Danzo or any of his ROOT fodders laid a hand on a Susano'o user. 

Especially considering Danzo's inability to deal with Sasuke's Susano'o. 

The only way Shisui using Susano'o works is if he collapsed and let down the Susano'o after a minute of use due to the heavy strain.


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## WorldsStrongest (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> I fail to see how Danzo or any of his ROOT fodders laid a hand on a Susano'o user.


They could have simply never faced it...

Its entirely possible that Danzo had Shisui ambushed and he never had a chance at using Susanoo as he was taken off guard


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## DaVizWiz (May 2, 2018)

Probably would've been hokage after Hiruzen's death, presuming the village didn't go along with that Uchiha genocide, which Shisui likely would've helped Itachi with unfortunately.

Itachi and Shisui were implied to be nearly equal prodigies, but what they both excelled at Shisui was better at. He didn't have the illness so he could fight for longer, and his 1 on 1 techniques are superior to Itachi's (Koto > Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Totsuka) and most shinobi in the verse. As far as him having Susano it's definitely more likely than not, his MS is among the top 2 most powerful already - the implication that those eyes wouldn't be capable of producing Susano from a power standpoint alone is unlikely.

As far as the Danzo incident, you guys don't actually think_ *that coward*_ openly challenged Shisui to combat do you? We know for certain he wasn't alone, he always has root with him whether he's in a meeting or taking a shit at the headquarters, and the likely hood of an Anbu Commander not ambushing a Mankegeyou Sharingan user under his direct command as a first option when his intention is to take his eyes is close to 0.

More likely than not Shisui probably didn't even have Sharingan activated during the scuffle, no different than when Itachi was approached by Danzo outside of the headquarters and didn't have Sharingan activated and could've easily been overwhelmed by a number of Root members and Danzo in CQC with his guard down and Dojutsu off.

_*Maybe*_ he challenges him if Shisui didn't have MS, and Danzo wanted to kill him instead of taking his eyes, which can go sideways pretty quickly by Shisui simply escaping during the fight, which he actually did before the second was taken.

In the end, when Itachi died in his 20s Shisui would've been given his eyes, no different than when Shisui gave him his, and he would easily be a top tier High Kage with EMS. 

Unlikely that an Anbu Itachi wouldn't unlock MS by his mid-20s even without witnessing Shisui's drowning, he would've still been killing children for a job which would've awakened it eventually.


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## MShadows (May 2, 2018)

Had he lived to unlock his full potential he would've been the strongest Uchiha after Madara and Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> They could have simply never faced it...
> 
> Its entirely possible that Danzo had Shisui ambushed and he never had a chance at using Susanoo as he was taken off guard



That's weird.

Susano'o always pops out unless the user is 120% distracted.

I find it hard to believe that Danzo surprised Shisui so badly that Shisui lost an eye from it immediately. Even at the speed JJ Madara snatched Kakashi's eye, Susano'o should have been an option there if Kakashi had it. Sasuke summoned Susano'o fast enough to bock a blitz from JJ Obito. So, Susano'o appears at plot-speed.


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## DaVizWiz (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> That's weird.
> 
> Susano'o always pops out unless the user is 120% distracted.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that Danzo surprised Shisui so badly that Shisui lost an eye from it immediately. Even at the speed JJ Madara snatched Kakashi's eye, Susano'o should have been an option there if Kakashi had it. Sasuke summoned Susano'o fast enough to bock a blitz from JJ Obito. So, Susano'o appears at plot-speed.


That's *EMS* Sasuke with far greater reactions than Shisui, and he was on a battlefield against a god enemy he knew was a god enemy.

There is no information on that incident other than Danzo took his eye.

He could've been taking a shit when Danzo and Root jumped him, if I were a commander of the most dangerous Anbu organization in the manga it'd probably cross my mind to take him when he's at his most distracted.

More likely than not he met with him under orders, was restrained by a root member from behind, and had his eye taken from him by Danzo before activating Sharingan and influencing the member to let him go with the remaining eye, then escaped with his shunshin. That's easily my guess at the most likely situation to have happened there, as there is no explanation why he couldn't have prevented Danzo from taking his eye via Koto unless he was outnumbered and ambushed beforehand, and had to use it on someone else.

We've seen SM Jiraiya, SM Pa, and SM Ma with chakra sensing taken by surprise with their guard down in enemy territory from a point blank ambush and Asura, who is no where close to their combined power, get an arm out of it. 

It's not unimaginable that Danzo, Shisui's commander, a man he had no reason to believe would attack him, with backup from the sneakiest dudes in the village (Root Anbu) took him by surprise and got an eye out of it before Shisui could disengage.


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## savior2005 (May 2, 2018)

High-tier kage level most likely, similar to Itachi.
Danzo likely surprised/ambushed Shisui, who had no reason to suspect an ambush from an ally.


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## sabre320 (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> That's weird.
> 
> Susano'o always pops out unless the user is 120% distracted.
> 
> I find it hard to believe that Danzo surprised Shisui so badly that Shisui lost an eye from it immediately. Even at the speed JJ Madara snatched Kakashi's eye, Susano'o should have been an option there if Kakashi had it. Sasuke summoned Susano'o fast enough to bock a blitz from JJ Obito. So, Susano'o appears at plot-speed.



Hell danzo being the asshole he is could have used some emotional fuckery using a innocent uchiha kid or friend as a distraction or bait to put shisui in a extremely unfavourable situation. When outnumbered by hundreds of roots and danzo his sussano might have given out due to exhaustion and he might have felt the backlash of ms where danzo capitalized momentarily..aka via a shadow bind user or ino clan user.


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's *EMS* Sasuke with far greater reactions than Shisui, and he was on a battlefield against a god enemy he knew was a god enemy.
> 
> There is no information on that incident other than Danzo took his eye.
> 
> ...



Except there's also the sensing of killing intent that all jonin level ninja are very capable of based on the manga. This really works out to character's advantage when they're calm and not expecting a threat because then the presence of killing intent sticks out even more than if you were in a combat situation.

Naruto and Sasuke displayed an acute sense of killing intent in part 1 and Hiashi roasted his brother's brain, while in the middle of Hinata training, because he sensed Hizashi looking at Hinata wrong.


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## DaVizWiz (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Except there's also the sensing of killing intent that all jonin level ninja are very capable of based on the manga. This really works out to character's advantage when they're calm and not expecting a threat because then the presence of killing intent sticks out even more than if you were in a combat situation.
> 
> Naruto and Sasuke displayed an acute sense of killing intent in part 1 and Hiashi roasted his brother's brain, while in the middle of Hinata training, because he sensed Hizashi looking at Hinata wrong.


Danzo or whoever didn't have killer intent, his intention was to steal his eyes.

Kakuzu was blindsided in the heat of combat with his guard up and implied Kakashi had no presence despite his killer intent with Raikiri which canonically gives off the sound of a thousand birds chirping, which he thought killed Kakuzu.

SM Jiraiya, SM Ma and SM Pa were all blindsided with danger sense and Chakra Sensing, they have decades of combat experience and Nagato was clearly going for the kill.

Hiruzen with more combat experience than 99% of the verse was blindsided by Orochimaru and taken hostage by him with a kunai.

Rinnegan Judara with several elite overlapped sensing capabilities (Chakra Sensing Rinnegan, Six Paths Senjutsu Danger Sense/Chakra Sensing) was one paneled by Black Zetsu's arm from behind.


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Danzo or whoever didn't have killer intent, his intention was to steal his eyes.
> 
> Kakuzu was blindsided in the heat of combat with his guard up and implied Kakashi had no presence despite his killer intent with Raikiri, which he thought killed Kakuzu.
> 
> ...



Killing intent stops working in battle when you already know who is trying to kill you because they're looking you in the eye.

Lol and Danzo's intent to mutilate someone as not qualifying as killing intent


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## DaVizWiz (May 2, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Killing intent stops working in battle when you already know who is trying to kill you because they're looking you in the eye.
> 
> Lol and Danzo's intent to mutilate someone as not qualifying as killing intent


The fact he took the eye without damaging it, instead of stabbing him in the eye and killing him implies he had no killer intent in that exchange.

You're ignoring the examples I provided where stronger shinobi than Shisui were taken by surprise and outplayed.

Address these please:

Kakuzu was blindsided in the heat of combat with his guard up and implied Kakashi had no presence despite his killer intent with Raikiri, which he thought killed Kakuzu. Kakuzu wasn't even aware Kakashi was on the battlefield and was not looking him in the eye.

SM Jiraiya, SM Ma and SM Pa were all blindsided with danger sense and Chakra Sensing, they have decades of combat experience and Nagato was clearly going for the kill, despite Jiraiya believing he was no longer in combat and was not looking Asura in the eye, who was behind his back shoulder.

Hiruzen with more combat experience than 99% of the verse was blindsided by Orochimaru and taken hostage by him with a kunai despite never being in combat nor knowledge that Orochimaru was playing Kazekage. 

Madara with several overlapping elite sensory capabilities (Rinnegan Chakra Sensing, Six Paths Senjutsu Danger Sense/Chakra Sensing) was one paneled by Black Zetsu's arm from behind with no knowledge that BZ was his enemy and he wasn't looking him in the eye.


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## Ultrafragor (May 2, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> The fact he took the eye without damaging it, instead of stabbing him in the eye and killing him implies he had no killer intent in that exchange.
> 
> You're ignoring the examples I provided where stronger shinobi than Shisui were taken by surprise and outplayed.



Which is to assume Hizashi was about to stand up and blast toddler Hinata's heart out of her body.

I've answered that in every post so far. Killing intent isn't a tip off when you know someone in the area wants to kill you.

Kishi also did away with the concept except in small, specific instances in shippuden. Naruto sensed Sakura was about to use an extremely strong chakra punch after completing her Yin Seal, even though he wasn't in KCM or SM.

Other than that, every time someone sensed something coming without SM being present or without their enemy charging up an amount of chakra that could reasonably be detected, then it can be explained by remembering killing intent can be sensed.


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## DaVizWiz (May 3, 2018)

Ultrafragor said:


> Which is to assume Hizashi was about to stand up and blast toddler Hinata's heart out of her body.


If you were trying to take someone's wallet in an exchange, and succeeded in doing it, would you have killer intent?

It's a simple answer. No.

If Danzo extracted his eye ball successfully he could've killed him much easier. He did not, because his intention was not to kill him when he took the eye.

How do you have killer intent, when you do not act to kill the person during a successful attack?



> I've answered that in every post so far. Killing intent isn't a tip off when you know someone in the area wants to kill you.


Hiruzen did not know Orochimaru was in the area, or that anyone in that coliseum wanted to kill him, and he was still outplayed and taken hostage by Orochimaru.

Jiraiya thought the battle was over, the enemy was killed, he was in the sewers of the village accompanied by nothing but rat shit and roaches and was blindsided and lost an arm to Asura Path.

Those are two all-world shinobi with more combat experience than everyone in the world bar a handful of legends, two of which are Jiraiya's teammates that rubbed off on him for decades, and Hiruzen's students who also rubbed off on him for decades.

The killing intent argument is good, but it doesn't make it impossible to be outplayed from an ambush. We've seen two of the most decorated shinobi in the history of the world fall victim to it.



> Kishi also did away with the concept except in small, specific instances in shippuden. Naruto sensed Sakura was about to use an extremely strong chakra punch after completing her Yin Seal, even though he wasn't in KCM or SM.


No he did not. People were constantly getting blindsided and taken out with lowered guards.

*Deidara and Sasori* were defeated by *Sai and Kankuro* in a single exchange.

The strongest shinobi who ever existed (*Madara*) was defeated by a blindside which Kishimoto wrote into the fucking story.

Explain it. You cannot.



> Other than that, every time someone sensed something coming without SM being present or without their enemy charging up an amount of chakra that could reasonably be detected, then it can be explained by remembering killing intent can be sensed.


This killing intent sense failed numerous times, 

against Kakuzu who conducted high level combat for over 60 years, 
Hiruzen who conducted combat at the highest level for over 50 years, 
Jiraiya who conducted combat at the highest level for over 40 years, and 
Madara who conducted the highest possible level of combat for over 30 years.

Your explanation is baseless. Even the most experienced shinobi in the manga who have lived full lives in the shit have been ambushed successfully.

Shisui, a young teenage shinobi reporting to a village elder and getting attacked by members of his own group and a 50 year old Kage level veteran shinobi, losing his eye before he can escape is not impossible and quite frankly easily believable when these combat legends above were also outplayed by ambushes in the manga.


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 3, 2018)

Ishmael said:


> Well.. I mean he was besting itachi in combat and pretty much was a mentor for him so.. I wouldn't put him low. Or assume that.


Itachi changed a lot after that. A guy with a mangekyo ( shisui ) besting a regular sharingan user ( itachi isn't a big thing). 
Itachi became a complete new level of a Ninja after Shisuis death... But yeah.. Being an an u.. Shisui might be  pretty good. But I'd still put him at danzo or below.


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## DaVizWiz (May 3, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Itachi changed a lot after that. A guy with a mangekyo ( shisui ) besting a regular sharingan user ( itachi isn't a big thing).
> Itachi became a complete new level of a Ninja after Shisuis death... But yeah.. Being an an u.. Shisui might be  pretty good. *But I'd still put him at danzo or below.*


Which version of Danzo are you referring to?


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 3, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> Which version of Danzo are you referring to?


The danzo he lost to... The danzo which everyone is aware of and not the danzo Sasuke fought.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 3, 2018)

below itachi but stronger than minato.

Reactions: Funny 2


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