# Itachi vs. Two Sannin



## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout
*Distance:* 10 meters
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Mindset:* IC, Intent to Kill
*Restrictions:* None

Living Itachi without his disease (or blindness) vs. Jiraiya & (Pre-Zetsu) Orochimaru with his arms. No handicaps. No bullshit. 

Would like to get a concensus on Itachi's standing.

*Bonus:* Pain vs. the two Sannin under the same conditions.


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## Yagura (May 19, 2015)

If you really want to assess Itachi's standing I'd start by using an incarnation of his character that actually exists in the manga.


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## Rocky (May 19, 2015)

My interest isn't in Sick or Edo Itachi's standing, so, uh, no.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 19, 2015)

Itachi creates a karasu bunshin faster than their eyes can track, creates a distraction with crows, blindsides Jiraiya and hits him with Amaterasu. 

Then proceeds to steamroll Orochimaru with Totsuka, or forces eye contact with Tsukiyomi.

Piece of cake for Itachi.


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## Umbrella (May 19, 2015)

I wonder if Jiraiya could use reverse summoning to escape Amaterasu ala Hiraishin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 19, 2015)

Itachi hard counters Orochimaru, so it's not the best reading.  

Regardless, numbers do matter, because I can't see Itachi winning without using his MS, and Itachi is temporarily weakened after using his MS, even if he's healthy.  Against these opponents, that sort of opening matters.  So more often than not, he'll die after he takes one down.  Infrequently he'll defeat both, and more infrequently he'll be defeated without killing either.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

I can honestly see the Sannin stalling long enough for Jiraiya to activate Sage Mode if the gang truly relies on stall techniques. Most of their stall techniques such as Summons are hard-countered by Amaterasu besides Manda who eventually gets chopped in half by V4 Susano'o.

 However, Orochimaru does have the Rashoumon Gates which Itachi can't penetrate through brute force and without any Summons, it makes it difficult to navigate around the Rashoumon Gates, giving Jiraiya enough time to activate Sage Mode.

 However, that still won't be enough. 

 This is simply because Jiraiya will normally resort to CQC and Ninjutsu which Itachi is superior due to the fact that he can contend with a far superior Sage, has bushin feints, Suiton that can overcome Senjutsu enhanced Suiton, bushin feints, versatile genjutsu and faster hand seals which allows Itachi to overpower Jiraiya easily without Susano'o and Jiraiya having to put in effort to even avoid eye contact hurts him here as that simply decreases his reactions as Jiraiya implied that even highly skilled sensory ninjas would struggle fighting with their vision hindered. Ma and Pa are non-factors considering Itachi's genjutsu was implied to be very strong to the point where Shikaku was concerned about it as well as Itachi believing that Kabuto would resort to Itachi's illusion prowess at a specific time to gain advantage during the war.

 Orochimaru doesn't change anything. 3 Tomoe Itachi easily navigated past Bee and landed hits on Base Bee who is far faster than Orochimaru and has far better CQC feats considering Orochimaru struggled against an exhausted Hiruzen. Itachi also has versatile Genjutsu along with Tsukyomi that Orochimaru has very little knowledge of if any at all which makes it very easy to land a genjutsu along with Susano'o which can tank anything the gang has besides Yomi Numi which is countered by reactivating Susano'o. If Orochimaru does use the Hydra Technique in an attempt to "mask" his senses, then he simply gets killed off like fodder.

 There's also the fact that with Itachi's superior intelligence, he can easily split the team and contend with either of them 1v1 easily as he instantly dispatched Orochimaru using his strongest technique and outclasses SM Jiraiya for the reasons stated above.

 Itachi takes this mid-difficulty at the very most.


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## Kai (May 19, 2015)

Two Sannin probably beat Itachi with high-extreme difficulty. Itachi's genius with his power makes even Orochimaru's pale in comparison.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 19, 2015)

> There's also the fact that with Itachi's superior intelligence, he can easily split the team and contend with either of them 1v1 easily as he instantly dispatched Orochimaru using his strongest technique and outclasses SM Jiraiya for the reasons stated above.



How exactly does Itachi use his"superior intelligence," to split them up?


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## Empathy (May 19, 2015)

Unless you think Orochimaru is a base genjutsu non-factor like I don't, then I really don't see how you arrive at a conclusion for Itachi's victory. Together, I think Jiraiya and Orochimaru would beat his living manga incarnation with low difficulty, but a hypothetical living incarnation without illness could push them to mid. Pain wouldn't fare a lot better, and would probably go down with mid difficulty as well. The difficulty level is contingent on what I believe Orochimaru's unrevealed strength to be, but Orochimaru and Jiraiya working together should still have enough between them to win on feats alone.


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## UchihaX28 (May 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> How exactly does Itachi use his"superior intelligence," to split them up?



 Personally, I wouldn't know, but I do think it's a possibility. After all, he does have advantage of being familiar with the location while the others do not.


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2015)

Orochimaru was kind of _there_ for the whole fight between Itachi and Sasuke...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 19, 2015)

Yeah.  I can't see it.  Especially given Oro having full knowledge.


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## StickaStick (May 19, 2015)

I could see this going either way with extreme difficulty; although I'd favor the Sannin more often than not. Jiraiya needs to enter Sage-Mode to be able to compete with Itachi's MS and he will be hard pressed to do so with a 10 meter starting distance. I suppose it's reasonable to think that Jiraiya would immediately summon Gamabunta at the opening bell and have him jump in the air and away from Itachi with him and Oro on his back in order to create some space. Eventually Itachi will have built up enough chakra in his eye to use Ama and will easily dispath of Gamabunta but by then Jiraiya likely will have entered SM, creating basically an even matchup between the two. Adding Oro tips the scales favorably in the Sannin's direction. Oro, once space has been created, can even summon Edo Tobirama who can use Kokuangyo  which trolls Itachi badly.

Edit: For the bonus round, I'll just keep it simple and say Jiraiya and Oro take a CST to their faces and get plastered.


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## UchihaX28 (May 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Yeah.  I can't see it.  Especially given Oro having full knowledge.



 He only has manga knowledge.


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## StarWanderer (May 20, 2015)

Itachi beats them. He has too many abilities The Sannin cant counter. Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, his Susanoo with YM and TB. Thats too much even for 2 Sannin.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Come on, everybody. Itachi had these disadvantages:


disease
mindrape backlash
leg wound
burns 
completely blindness
had his cloak burned off by lightning
chakra exhaustion
And Itachi  the most talented Sannin. Therefore, in terms of the author's portrayal, a fresh "" Itachi would have an _easy_ time against two Sannin. It's not even debatable.​


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## SSMG (May 20, 2015)

Oro summons the Edo Hokages and let's them do the rest.


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## Rocky (May 20, 2015)

He doesn't have them in this thread.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He only has manga knowledge.



Full knowledge of the location, as Flaming Rain pointed out.  Orochimaru watched the fight from inside Sasuke, so he knows that building pretty well.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

itachi is fighting 2 sannin 
I assume he will start in susanoo naturally he has to go hard off the bat to survive killing 2 sannin with all the rep 

sadly jiraiya got counters to that 

YM
FCD
frog song and call if he goes SM

orochimaru got his underground attacks and what not. + he is entirely immune to amaterasu, while jiriaya got the fire scroll to seal it. 

the sannin know they are fighting an uchiha who is famous for killing an entire clan 

I assume they start out with their summons and get ready for a brawl

they murk itachi absolutely. easy win


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## Yagura (May 20, 2015)

Well, anyway. 

The Sannin, with Orochimaru knowing what he knows, will likely fall back for a tactical retreat while engaging in irregular tactics - harassing Itachi with summons, clones etcetera. Now from there the question becomes whether they can stall long enough get out Frog Song - which should end Itachi. For that, I'm not so sure, but with their teamwork being legendary I imagine they must have some old, nifty combos and tricks they can call upon so I certainly consider it possible, if not likely.

So I'll give it to the Sannin with high difficulty, 6 to 7  times out of 10.


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## Ghost (May 20, 2015)

Someone tell me why IC Itachi wouldn't go all out from the start if he is facing both Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Itachi MS rapes them immediately.


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## Icegaze (May 20, 2015)

Ms itachi rapes them immediately  

amaterasu trolled orochimaru, countered by jiriaiya through his fire scroll. no reason it should seal amaterasu when it has on panel. 
susanoo countered by jiriaiya, FCD, YN, frog call or song if in SM.
 Susnaoo countered by orochimaru kusanagi underground attack 

tskuyomi can be very well countered by orochimaru closing his eyes, same for jiriaya both can effectively fight blind if they know who they are fighting 

orochimaru snakes are very much alive, so snake hands and what not would still work even if his eyes are closed. jiriaya got the sensor barrier so he can afford to close his eyes 

so they do have counters to itachi horribly overrated MS

though 1 on 1 itachi shoudl beat either more often than not. 2 vs 1 is a baby shake against itachi


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2015)

Using your most costly technique(s?) to handle somebody is automatically well past the point where you can be said to have handled them "casually", and many of Itachi's disadvantages were physical- largely irrelevant to the performance of a giant Chakra construct that _does not even require Itachi to physically act in order to do such itself_.

Orochimaru wasn't very concerned with being stabbed because he didn't know that the blade Itachi had conjured up was imbued with a sealing Jutsu, and the databook tells us that Orochimaru was using "the last of his strength", too.


Anyway, an Orochimaru that already knows that the _Totsuka no Tsurugi_ can seal what it pierces won't so readily reveal his actual form from _Yamata no Jutsu_. He can occupy Itachi on his own for a time because he could simply regenerate from being sliced, and even if Itachi decides to light up the technique with Amaterasu Orochimaru can escape from a safe part of the giant outside of Itachi's line of sight (like the opposite side from where the Uchiha is standing) and then proceed from there with something like digging underground and launching attacks from below or transforming again if necessary, etc.

If Orochimaru at all cares about distracting Itachi to help Jiraiya get into Sage Mode he should be given more than enough time to enter it, and if Jiraiya reaches that state he has more than a fair chance at defeating Itachi by himself. So once that happens Orochimaru doesn't really _have to_ do much more of anything else besides perhaps providing support here and there with his snake techniques and Kusanagi attacks while Itachi's attention is divided/to help keep Itachi's attention divided.

_Fūton: Sunabokori_ should go a lot further in obscuring Itachi's vision than Mei's thinned Kirigakure did obscuring Madara's Rinnegan since this time the side using it can still use Sage sensing, temperature sensing and smelling (and often utilizes area-of-effect attacks that can afford to be a little off instead of concentrated ones that can't), meaning Genjutsu is practically out of the question and the accuracy of _Amaterasu_ and _Susano'o_ are reduced even more than they already would be by the fact that the Uchiha's facing multiple enemies who can increase their numbers even further with _Kage Bunshins_.

Most likely, at some point Itachi's caught by one of the Sannin's attacks from underground where Susano'o isn't generating a protective barrier, ensnared by _Gamarinshō_ which can still be heard inside of Susano'o, or he's simply exhausted before he manages to kill off team Sannin.

So Jiraiya and Orochimaru win, and Tsunade with full knowledge of Pain's abilities implied that had Orochimaru gone with Jiraiya they would have beaten him, so I'mma go ahead and say they win that, too.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

The Sannin rape him low-difficult at most.


Link removed
the poor kid was running out of steam already.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (May 20, 2015)

Ok. So all the people saying Itachi solos 2 sanin at once? lol....

Both sanin have counters to everything itachi has. Amatarasu? oro uses oral rebirth. Genjutsu? There are two sanin? Still a problem? They summon all the their bosses. Itachi uses amatarasu again? Oh look like he is out of gas. No need for SM Jiraiya.

Fighting 1 on 1 itachi would have a high diffuctly fight. Anf for all the naysayers saying his genjutsu beats everything. If this is after orochimaru fought him before which I am assuming it is Orochimaru is not going to be fooled twice by the same move.


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## Alucardemi (May 20, 2015)

Itachi has already demonstrated that he can Totsuka blitz Oro even at a good distance without much trouble. Oro gets take out quickly in this fight.

Then Itachi either Amaterasus or Tsukuyomis from a clone-feint or something. Jiraiya has no way to one-shot him in Susanoo, especially out of Sage mode, while Itachi has three techs that are lethal if they hit.

The solo king, once again, solo's.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> Itachi has already demonstrated that he can Totsuka blitz Oro even at a good distance without much trouble. Oro gets take out quickly in this fight.
> 
> Then Itachi either Amaterasus or Tsukuyomis from a clone-feint or something. Jiraiya has no way to one-shot him in Susanoo, especially out of Sage mode, while Itachi has three techs that are lethal if they hit.



1- Fighting 1 on 1 is not as easy as fighting 2 on 1. Especially if 1 of the 2 is already superior to him.

- He actually has. The underworld swamp would still work against the Susanoo since it's from the underneath. The same with any sound-based jutsu. 

- Even a Kunai is lethal if it's hit. Hashirama was going to take his own life with a Kunai. 
So, Jiraiya kinda has 30 lethal attacks or so if they hit itachi. 

Even tho it's kinda hard to take Amatersu seriously, or those tho think it is for that matter, honestly.


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## ShadoLord (May 20, 2015)

Sage Jiraiya is the only one that even has a chance of defeating Itachi, a tossup pre-skip for Itachi as he had low chakras reserves. 

Orochimaru......gets destroyed by a genjutsu...

So Jiraiya+Tsunade can potentially defeat Itachi, 50/50.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

itachi considered Jiraiya a threat even tho he has no clue about SM. 
thinking otherwise is laughable when the character himself admitted that he could lose to base Jiraiya 
or hurt each other badly.


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## ShadoLord (May 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> itachi considered Jiraiya a threat even tho he has no clue about SM.
> thinking otherwise is laughable when the character himself admitted that he could lose to base Jiraiya
> or hurt each other badly.



His Mangekyo Sharingan techniqes(Tsukuyomi and Susanoo) are making that statement's weird. But it was understandable pre-skip as he had low chakra reserve and could only used Tsukuyomi once a day and he's tired.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

They don't. People love to exaggerate things.  Also, it's not like if his conditions got any better in part 2, as he actually became worst and sick. If "healthy" itachi does exist, then that would be part 1 itachi. Itachi knows his jutsu very-well, and even he does not believe that he can take on Jiraiya as his fans believe. At least, not an easy win as he admitted even IF he can take him on, he will get seriously injured. And that base Jiraiya we are talking about here. 

So clearly Jiraiya, by itachi's own words, does not need SM to win. SM would only make his win 100% certain.


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2015)

Jiraiya is famous as the Toad _Sage_ so I don't know why a former Anbu captain who was familiar enough with the concept of Sage Mode to figure out that Kabuto was using it once he mentioned the forces of nature would somehow have no idea about Sage Mode...

Also, Itachi used Tsukuyomi on both Kakashi and Sasuke on the same day, and then Amaterasu.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Also, Itachi used Tsukuyomi on both Kakashi and Sasuke on the same day, and then Amaterasu.



And a Kage Bunshin, some jutsu, ranged mind-control, etc. Kisame being shocked that Itachi retreated also implies that he knew from experience that Itachi had more gas in the tank than that.

This was also in part one, when Kakashi was limited to four Chidori per day and "Hokage level ninjutsu" was a piddly suiton. Meaning even before _chakra-inflation_, Itachi had _very_ solid stamina.​


FlamingRain said:


> Using your most costly technique(s?) to handle somebody is automatically well past the point where you can be said to have handled them "casually"



To be casual is to be apathetic and indifferent towards something, which is exactly what a quick stab and sealing followed with saying "_Okay. Got anything else, Sasuke?_" portrayed.​


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya is famous as the Toad _Sage_ so I don't know why a former Anbu captain who was familiar enough with the concept of Sage Mode to figure out that Kabuto was using it once he mentioned the forces of nature would somehow have no idea about Sage Mode...
> 
> Also, Itachi used Tsukuyomi on both Kakashi and Sasuke on the same day, and then Amaterasu.



Nagato who is his student and actually lived with him several years did not know about it, and neither did Narudo. So, I don't know why would itachi know. 


We don't know how many hours passed after his battle with Kakashi. Which by the way, he was tired of it as well, and Kisame mentioned that as well.

Edit:
Link removed

look to those effects around itachi, they are the same around Kakashi.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Oh yeah, about that. I've always known this, but I guess I never made a point about it: yes, we see that _72 hour _ Tsukuyomi leaves Itachi panting, much like Kakashi after enduring it.

But we see that a _24 hour_ Tsukuyomi used on Sasuke (both times) does not affect Itachi at all. You count MS techniques so simplistically, but it's 96 hours Itachi crunched into a moment.

It'd be exhausting. You could easily consider it four "24 hour" Tsukuyomi Itachi used that day, as well Amaterasu, Kage Bunshin, suitons, ranged mind control, etc. So that's quite a lot.

And like I said in my post above, chakra inflation happened hard in part two. By part one standards, Itachi had _immense_ stamina considering "3.0" Kakashi was limited to 4 Chidori.

And it wasn't just Kakashi. Even "5.0" Jiraiya makes a point to tell Naruto that it "took a huge effort" to use that toad stomach ninjutsu. It exhausted a big chunk of his chakra.​


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

We don't know how much the Amatersu use really, or the other jutsu he used for that matter. However, the Tsukuyomi does probably need even more than 30% of his chakra, as his clone (against team Konoha) was not
able to use it. I think... 



> By part one standards, Itachi had pretty immense stamina considering an elite Jonin like Kakashi was limited to 4 Chidori.


Even if we assume as such, then that wouldn't apply to only itachi, as we can argue the same thing with the
other characters. So, that wouldn't really change much, unless it's some insane shit like the asspulls with the Senju
bros which obviously make a different in their regard.


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## Sadgoob (May 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Even if we assume as such, then that wouldn't apply to only itachi, as we can argue the same thing with the
> other characters.



The problem is that part one healthy Itachi's showing is about equal to part two sick (2.5) Itachi's showing, but this does not take into account of chakra inflation in part two for part one healthy Itachi. 

We can see, for exmaple, that 3.0 Kakashi in part two has nearly double (or arguably even triple) the total gas in his tank than 3.0 Kakashi in part one. Same numerical stamina, just power inflation.

But we can also compare part one Kakashi and part one Itachi, and conclude that Itachi's stamina was significantly higher than 3.0 due to using much more powerful jutsu much more often.

Hence healthy Itachi, _with part two scaling_, having significantly more stamina than sick Itachi. Not approximately equal stamina. And this makes perfect sense.​


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## FlamingRain (May 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Nagato who is his student and actually lived with him several years did not know about it, and neither did Narudo. So, I don't know why would itachi know.



Yet Minato did.

Jiraiya wasn't even legendary yet when he spent those 3 years with Nagato and we don't know if he even _had_ Sage Mode back then. He _was_ legendary by the time Itachi became a ninja, and I would suspect that captains of the Anbu who operate directly under the authority of the Hokage ought to be privy to more knowledge than most to begin with.

Itachi already proved to be more knowledgeable of it than Nagato and Naruto during the fight with Kabuto, so there's no point in bringing them up anyway.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2015)

Jiraiya considers Minato as his own son, and he was his personal teacher since he was 10 years old. How in God's name is itachi comparable to Minato from this perspective?  

Does Jiraiya give a darn about itachi to share anything with him at all? 
Have they ever been together? Do they use the same summoning...etc? No. 

So, that comparison makes absolutely no sense. I just found that point outrageous, so I couldn't make it pass like that.  

about the other stuff, I might reply to them later, (that includes your reply, Strategoob).


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## FlamingRain (May 21, 2015)

I pointed out Minato because you tried to say "well his student didn't know". Don't try to sell me this bs about "Minato knew because Jiraiya considred Minato to be like his own son" when Jiraiya considered Naruto his godson and yet apparently didn't reveal it to him.

You _don't need_ to be together with somebody to know they have certain abilities _when they are *famous for* those abilities_. Itachi has never been together with someone who used the forces of nature/natural energy and yet still recognized that the mention of that meant.

What makes absolutely no sense is comparing Itachi to Nagato after Itachi has already demonstrated more familiarity with Sage Mode than Nagato.



Strategoob said:


> To be casual is to be apathetic and indifferent towards something, which is exactly what a quick stab and sealing followed with saying "_Okay. Got anything else, Sasuke?_" portrayed.​



To be apathetic and indifferent is to show no interest in something. I don't think Itachi _quite_ _fits into_ _that_ when Orochimaru first emerges.

_Of course_ he wouldn't be concerned _after_ Orochimaru's form had been revealed and impaled by the Totsuka, because at that point he was just going to proceed to be sealed. It's like how Sakura wasn't concerned about Sasori once she punched him into pieces (before he put himself back together, that is) or Chiyo wasn't concerned about him after he was hit with her final attack and went to thinking about Sakura.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Even if we assume as such, then that wouldn't apply to only itachi, as we can argue the same thing with the
> other characters. So, that wouldn't really change much, unless it's some insane shit like the asspulls with the Senju
> bros which obviously make a different in their regard.



Doesn't change much from their perspective, as Jiraiya never hit a chakra barrier before and Orochimaru only did when his host was rejecting him.

Running out of stamina was never a counter argument against the Sannin.

And yes, Strategoob is right. 
Itachi was tired after 3 MS shots and some other jutsu. But those were the times when Kakashi had to go to hospital after 3 minutes of sharingan usage and 4 chidori(I'm willing to bet 3 MS jutsu are more effective, stronger and more taxing) was his absolute limit.



FlamingRain said:


> To be apathetic and indifferent is to show no interest in something. I don't think Itachi _quite_ _fits into_ _that_ when Orochimaru first emerges.
> 
> _Of course_ he wouldn't be concerned _after_ Orochimaru's form had been revealed and impaled by the Totsuka, because at that point he was just going to proceed to be sealed. It's like how Sakura wasn't concerned about Sasori once she punched him into pieces (before he put himself back together, that is) or Chiyo wasn't concerned about him after he was hit with her final attack and went to thinking about Sakura.



Itachi's words, facial expression and manners leave no doubt that he didn't give a flying fuck about Orochimaru. He is actually smiling when Orochimaru emerges.

Seals one of the sannin in 2 seconds and goes "got anything else?"(one might think he meant "where is the rest of the sannin?") Another day at the office.


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

Considering how dangerous itachi is with genjutsu why wont the sannin instantly summon bunta and manda?
now itachi mind raping them or controlling them and keepign the sannin engaged is goign to be quite the task for itachi 

he is far more likely to see 2 giant summons and dispatch them with susanoo considering he is facing the sannin 

sadly susanoo has an obvious weakness the sannin can exploit, 

while itachi beats either of them 2 vs 1 is going to be impossible for itachi. considering how he must keep MS active throughout his fight. 

while he can counter everything they throw at him bar frog song and call, they can counter everything he throws at them. its much more skewed in the favour of the sannin


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## Legend777 (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Come on, everybody. Itachi had these disadvantages:
> 
> 
> disease
> ...



Even if Itachi was without both his arms and legs , it still wouldn't have made a difference in that situation and the result would still have been Totsuka GG because that was all he needed.  That doesn't mean that a hypothetical Itachi would have much much easier time with the sannin .


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## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

Each Sannin individually pushes Itachi to High or extreme diff and Jiraiya could solo.


Orochimaru knows about Itachi's Genjutsu now and will avoid eye-contact with snake detection. None of Itachi's Jutsu can than kill him short of Totsuka-Sword, and Itachi will need to deal with both Orochimaru and at least 3 Edo-Tensei, weakened as they may be, there still strong enough and resilient enough to also necessitate Totsuka to be defeated. That means a considerable amount of use of a Jutsu that shaves Itachi's life away and significantly damages his eyesight. He wins as he is very well suited to counter Orochimaru, but with high or extreme diff.

Jiraiya w/ manga knowledge knows to go SM against Itachi, and Itachi isn't likely to pull out his big guns quick enough to stop him. Once in SM-Jiraiya's SM sensing allows him to anticipate and avoid Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, as well as overwhelm all of Itachi's Jutsu. Again Susano'o will be the big thing that will cause problems for Jiriaya, but unlike Orochimaru he has potential avenues to overcoming it with powerful Sound-Based Techniques, so he can actually pull out a victory here, but if not it will still take a considerable amount of Susnao'o use perform he can stick Jiraiya with the Totsuka sword and win out, so again High to Extreme diff.

--------

The two Sannin together murder Itachi however. When it comes to Pain the two Sannin could win or they could loose it all depends on if they can down Naraka and Deva Realm before Pain's big guns, CST, CT, and GM come out.


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Each Sannin individually pushes Itachi to High or extreme diff



This is heavily supported by manga feats and portrayal.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Each Sannin individually pushes Itachi to High or extreme diff and Jiraiya could solo.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru knows about Itachi's Genjutsu now and will avoid eye-contact with snake detection. None of Itachi's Jutsu can than kill him short of Totsuka-Sword, and Itachi will need to deal with both Orochimaru and at least 3 Edo-Tensei, weakened as they may be, there still strong enough and resilient enough to also necessitate Totsuka to be defeated. That means a considerable amount of use of a Jutsu that shaves Itachi's life away and significantly damages his eyesight. He wins as he is very well suited to counter Orochimaru, but with high or extreme diff.
> ...



>2015
>still thinks Sannin are relevant.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> >2015
> >still thinks Sannin are relevant.


2015, still can't accept cannon 

Also thinks Itachi is still relevant on the power scale


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Also thinks Itachi is still relevant on the power scale



> Black Zetsu knew Kaguya, Madara, etc.

> Black Zetsu said Itachi was completely invincible.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (May 21, 2015)

More relevant than the Sannin at least for sure.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> 2015, still can't accept cannon
> 
> Also thinks Itachi is still relevant on the power scale



If you think Itachi is irrelevant power wise, then why do you even mention Sannin of all people man 

Legendary Sannin..So part 1


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## Yagura (May 21, 2015)

Pssh.


Itachi can't even breathe in the presence of Edo Hokage summoning Sage Orochimaru.


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## Rain (May 21, 2015)

> sannin
> topkek


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## Sadgoob (May 21, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Pssh.
> 
> 
> Itachi can't even breathe in the presence of Edo Hokage summoning Sage Orochimaru.



Orochimaru's strongest summon said Itachi puts him to shame.


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## Yagura (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Orochimaru's strongest summon said Itachi puts him to shame.



Huh. I certainly don't recall Minato saying that.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you think Itachi is irrelevant power wise, then why do you even mention Sannin of all people man



Pretty sure this thread isn't about relevancy to the current power-scale 



> Legendary Sannin..So part 1


Itachi is so P1 as well, pretty much any character with a realistic placement on the power-scale is.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Pretty sure this thread isn't about relevancy to the current power-scale
> 
> 
> Itachi is so P1 as well, pretty much any character with a realistic placement on the power-scale is.



Considering Itachi never got a chance to go all out in part 1...


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## Yagura (May 21, 2015)

Actually, outside of Nerdo and Sausage, the current shinobi world as a whole should be weaker than it was.


But the real question here is why is Grimmjow so salty.


----------



## Icegaze (May 21, 2015)

all that  is scaring me 
don't stop the fact that him landing totsuka 1 shots them. frog song 1 shots him 
and tskuyomi 1 shots them 

if itachi had crazy stamina he would win tbh


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## Lawrence777 (May 21, 2015)

I think it depends. As funny as it sounds, If Orochimaru's supposed to be as strong as Jiraiya then the sannin would win. If Jiraiya's supposed to be as strong as Orochimaru then Itachi'd win. The sannin are supposed to be equal but I can't help but feel being associated with Orochimaru as a fellow sannin raised power in Part I but lowered power in Part 2. So it'd range from _Itachi vs Orochimaru Round Four_(stomp) to _Itachi vs 2 Itachi-levels_(stomp) and anything in between.
 I don't think either belief's asinine really.

What I think is "Healthy Itachi" would win feat-wise outside of Edo Tensei with around high-difficulty imo provided Jiraiya is in SM and is spamming the sound paralytic tech and assuming it has a similar degree of effect on Itachi as Kabuto's flashbang grenade had.


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## Turrin (May 21, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Considering Itachi never got a chance to go all out in part 1...


Nether did the Sannin. Just saying P1 power-scale with Itachi and Sannin being the strongest was the only time the power-scale was respectable.


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## Trojan (May 21, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The problem is that part one healthy Itachi's showing is about equal to part two sick (2.5) Itachi's showing, but this does not take into account of chakra inflation in part two for part one healthy Itachi.
> 
> We can see, for exmaple, that 3.0 Kakashi in part two has nearly double (or arguably even triple) the total gas in his tank than 3.0 Kakashi in part one. Same numerical stamina, just power inflation.
> 
> ...



- Itachi was fighting carefully because he wanted to fight Sasuke no matter what. That's why he was using his jutsu 1 or 2 time, and then when he becomes tired from the usage, he run away. When Part 2 itachi broke that limit, he basically died.  

Also, even in part 2, itachi was never a character with a great deal of chakra. He could potentially go for a bit longer, but that's about it. 




FlamingRain said:


> I pointed out Minato because you tried to say "well his student didn't know". Don't try to sell me this bs about "Minato knew because Jiraiya considred Minato to be like his own son" when Jiraiya considered Naruto his godson and yet apparently didn't reveal it to him.
> 
> You _don't need_ to be together with somebody to know they have certain abilities _when they are *famous for* those abilities_. Itachi has never been together with someone who used the forces of nature/natural energy and yet still recognized that the mention of that meant.
> 
> What makes absolutely no sense is comparing Itachi to Nagato after Itachi has already demonstrated more familiarity with Sage Mode than Nagato.



- And yet again, Minato lived with Jiraiya for 14 years. You have no clue when he learned about SM. When both Naruto and Nagato who lived with him around 3 years or a bit more did not know. So, there is no reason to assume itachi has any clue about him either. And no, being a an ANBU does not prove jack. Heck, even Oro himself did not know about Tsunade's seal and he was with her for more than a decade. 

- Rocogonizing the jutsu, and knowing X character using it are 2 different things. 
- And what does that have to do with anything? I am not debating you about itachi knowing about SM or not. I am debating you about whether he knows Jiraiya is a user of said more or not. Especially with the fact that Jiraiya does not use that mode much to begin with.  



FlamingRain said:


> Yet Minato did.
> 
> Jiraiya wasn't even legendary yet when he spent those 3 years with Nagato and we don't know if he even _had_ Sage Mode back then. He _was_ legendary by the time Itachi became a ninja, and I would suspect that captains of the Anbu who operate directly under the authority of the Hokage ought to be privy to more knowledge than most to begin with.
> 
> Itachi already proved to be more knowledgeable of it than Nagato and Naruto during the fight with Kabuto, so there's no point in bringing them up anyway.



- Yes he was. 
the Sannni's battle with Hanzo was in the 2nd War, and Nagato was Jiraiya's student in the 3rd War time as according to the Databook, Nagato is around 6 years younger than Minato. 

- And why would they give him info about the Sannin to begin with? Jiraiya is also a spy for Konoha. Did he know about itachi's secret mission and his MS abilities? 

Hell, Tsunade IS the Hokage, and yet she did not know about itachi's "truth" or are you saying the ANBU has more access to the information than the Hokage? There is absolutly nothing indicates anything of that matter is known by itachi. So, just for being in whatever position does not grand you info directly. 

Just how for example Nagato appeared to be the leader of the Akatsuki, but he does not know about itachi's mission, nor who Obito really is. Or how Deidara
kept C4 a secret and so on and so forth.


----------



## Six (May 22, 2015)

Honestly, if we're talking about an actual real life fight, i.e how it would play to their abilities in real life, I don't see what stops Itachi from stomping.

Like seriously, a person like Itachi would be so ridiculously overpowered in real life with his genjutsu abilities. The only difference I see between Itachi and Aizen is that Aizen can control people whenever he wants after them initially falling for his illusion.

What is stopping Itachi from putting both of them in a subtle genjutsu, where absolutely nothing changes and speed blitzing them and cutting off their heads? We've never seen that in the manga because that would be near impossible to stop. Just look at Itachi vs Deidara.

The dude can put anybody in a genjutsu by merely making eye contact with them, just like Jiraiya did when in their initial encounter? 

Given itachi's immense speed he could have them attack his illusion self and just fuck them up.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Nether did the Sannin. Just saying P1 power-scale with Itachi and Sannin being the strongest was the only time the power-scale was respectable.



Both Orochimaru and Jiraiya went all out plenty. Itachi didn't. Not only he didn't show everything he got, but he was heavily nerfed due to being sick and holding back in his one and only major fight.

You can only argue the same thing for Tsunade, for being rusty and all in Part 1, but she is alot weaker than Oro & Jman anyways.


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## Yagura (May 22, 2015)

Itachi used his Mangekyo, his strongest power, three times in part 1.  
The equivalent to that would be Jiraiya using SM. And when Orochimaru went anything close to 'all out' in part 1 he used one of the most broken jutsu in the manga.


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

lol at itachi not going all out as if jiriaya or orochimaru did 

itachi used MS, orochimaru used ET 
jiriaya used no high level jutsu but hey 

i dont see what stops YN+FCD combo tbh. genjutsu wont be workign with sensing barrier and fighting 2 or more enemies 

jiraiya and orochimaru have the ability to make this a 8-10 vs 1 match. itachi looses properly here. 

he isnt going to take out
Sm jiriaya+bunta+ken+hiro(shima can summon all 3 at once)+gamakichi+toad that blocked kisame sword
+orochimaru+manda+fodder snakes 

that would easily bee too much. his LOS will be blocked for the most part and easily

off the bat and FCD then running off to hide or using orochimaru as cover is enough for jiriaya to get into SM.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (May 22, 2015)

Sage Mode shouldn't exist at all, aside from tons of plotholes created that shit asspull thing basically makes Oro lame in contrast to his superior state in part 1 and there's where the Sannin deadlock goes completely broken, thus why so many confusions. 

Compared to both Itachi and Oro, Jiraiya does get an all-out fight BTW.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Itachi used his Mangekyo, his strongest power, three times in part 1.
> The equivalent to that would be Jiraiya using SM. And when Orochimaru went anything close to 'all out' in part 1 he used one of the most broken jutsu in the manga.



My bad, I was mainly referring to pre-war arc. 

Only Orochimaru went all out(or close to it) in part 1.


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2015)

This is quite true legendary itachi 
Itachi never had the chance to go all out nor did orochimaru

Nonetheless unrestricted Orochimaru + jiraiya stomp itachi 

It's too much to deal with ET, Yamata , frog song etc

Maybe if itachi had a backup like Deidara or weaker he could win. But alone no chance


----------



## Yagura (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> My bad, I was mainly referring to pre-war arc.
> 
> Only Orochimaru went all out(or close to it) in part 1.




Edo Itachi is at very least significantly stronger than his living self at any point in his life.


And Orochimaru didn't even use Oral Rebirth, much less Yamata no Orochi.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Both Orochimaru and Jiraiya went all out plenty. Itachi didn't. Not only he didn't show everything he got, but he was heavily nerfed due to being sick and holding back in his one and only major fight.
> 
> You can only argue the same thing for Tsunade, for being rusty and all in Part 1, but she is alot weaker than Oro & Jman anyways.


Itachi went all out in the Hebi-Sasuke fight, he literally went so far all out the strain killed him. Just because he wasn't aiming to kill Sasuke doesn't mean fighting w/o killer intent to rid Sasuke of Orochi didn't require him to go all out. This is thee same arc that Jiraiya went all out and we got to see Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu [Yamata no Orochi]. 

As far as Edo-Itachi goes, I agree he's stronger than the Sannin, but not by nearly enough where he's relevant to the end game power-scale of Juubi Jins and Hagoromo Power Characters, he's just a slightly powered up version of someone who used to be one of the old top dogs [Sannin, Minato, Hiruzen], before all the Juubi/Kaguya/Hagoromo bullshit hit the scene.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Sage Mode shouldn't exist at all, aside from tons of plotholes created that shit asspull thing basically makes and there's where the Sannin deadlock goes completely broken, thus why so many confusions.
> 
> Compared to both Itachi and Oro, Jiraiya does get an all-out fight BTW.


The Sannin deadlock is something made up by fans, that doesn't exist in the manga cannon. Fans hypothesized that all 3 of the Sannin were equals, due to their mythological inspiration from the Tale of Gallant Jiraiya, and the old Slug/Toad/Snake children game that came from that mythos. However basing strength on myth doesn't make sense, as Kishi is just taking inspiration from that myth, not rewriting it. For example in myth Yamata no Orochi > Susano'o, and Susano'o has to use a clever trick to defeat Yamata no Orochi, however in the manga Susano'o was clearly just stronger than Yamata no Orochi as far as Ougi's go. Like wise in myth Izanami is one of the strongest Gods around, but in the manga it's one of the worst upper end Dojutsu techniques because of it's very strict requirements to be activated, with things like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susano'o all on lower standings than Izanami in myth, are better in most situations. Like wise in myth the 3-Tails is inspired by one of the 4 directional animals, the turtle of the north, which is WAY more powerful than a 9-Tails Kitsune, but here Sanbi is much weaker. And so on.

In the case of the Sannin, they were never equals throughout the entire Cannon. Tsunade was rusty in P1, than Orochimaru was handicapped throughout P1 and in PII to different degrees, while Jiriaya was even strong than he thought lacking knowledge of Frog Song, and than Tsunade and Orochimaru both got huge power ups putting them well above their previous incarnations and Jiraiya.



> Oro lame in contrast to his superior state in part 1


Jiraiya was really billed as superior in P1. Orochi faced Itachi and admitted Itachi was stronger, while Itachi believed at best he could draw with Jiraiya. That put Jiraiya above Orochimaru in strength. The only thing said to the contrary is Orochimaru saying in the Sannin duel, _"Even with mutual handicaps the difference still remains eh....""_. Some translators define the difference as referring to "level", but the actual raw text never says that, it just says "difference" leaving it ambiguous as to what the "difference" is. An equally valid interpretation of that line would be that the difference is Orochimaru has killer-intent, but Jiraiya does not, just saying... so nothing really places Orochimaru above Jiraiya in P1, and rather the reverse is stressed in the Itachi instance


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## ARGUS (May 22, 2015)

IItachi wins this, mid diff at most 

 -- starting distance of 10m and making itachi healthy immediately makes them both vulenarble to getting caught and finished by tsukuyomi or stabbed and sealed by totsuka, itachi is much faster than both of them by a fair margin and the conditions pretty much ensure that he makes quick work of them

 -- orochimaru is garbaged here within the fist minute, he doesnt have anything on itachis genjutsu prowess here nor are his attacks a factor once susanoo comes out 

 -- jiraiya isnt doing much either, YN is countered by katon hardening the surface and reducing its suction added to the fact that itachi can anticipate it through sharingan, rasengan variants are moot infront of susanoo and jiraiya still lacks the speed to manouevre around susanoo meaning that V4 susanoo dices him to mince meat, 

 -- engaging CQC is just suicide for jiraiya seeing how he's bound to get caught in tsukuyomi, and with things like crow clone fients and ephemeral genjutsus, makes it much easier for jiraiya to get caught 

 -- jiraiya isnt really countering amaterasu either, he can block the LoS with smoke bombs or dust clouds sure, but he's still too slow to move around before the flames spawn,.. Itachi can just get a general locaiton of jiraiya prior to the LoS blocking, and still spawn the flames there resulting in jiraiya getting caught and incinerated


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## Six (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Itachi went all out in the Hebi-Sasuke fight, he literally went so far all out the strain killed him. Just because he wasn't aiming to kill Sasuke doesn't mean fighting w/o killer intent to rid Sasuke of Orochi didn't require him to go all out. This is thee same arc that Jiraiya went all out and we got to see Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu [Yamata no Orochi].
> 
> As far as Edo-Itachi goes, I agree he's stronger than the Sannin, but not by nearly enough where he's relevant to the end game power-scale of Juubi Jins and Hagoromo Power Characters, he's just a slightly powered up version of someone who used to be one of the old top dogs [Sannin, Minato, Hiruzen], before all the Juubi/Kaguya/Hagoromo bullshit hit the scene.



I guess that you're ignoring the fact that Obito said that if Itachi wanted Sasuke dead, then Sasuke would be dead. And I am pretty sure he wasn't talking about their previous encounters. Itchy was using those strong just to push Sasuke to the very limit so as to expel Orochimaru from his body. Don't forget that was his sub-mission remove Oro from his brother. 

If Itachi was serious about killing Sauce in that fight, I believe that Naruto would have ended the next arc with Naruto going back to his village sad and defeated at not being able to save his friend.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I guess that you're ignoring the fact that Obito said that if Itachi wanted Sasuke dead, then Sasuke would be dead. And I am pretty sure he wasn't talking about their previous encounters. Itchy was using those strong just to push Sasuke to the very limit so as to expel Orochimaru from his body. Don't forget that was his sub-mission remove Oro from his brother.
> 
> If Itachi was serious about killing Sauce in that fight, I believe that Naruto would have ended the next arc with Naruto going back to his village sad and defeated at not being able to save his friend.


Nope your just not reading my post:

"Just because he wasn't aiming to kill Sasuke doesn't mean fighting w/o killer intent to rid Sasuke of Orochi didn't require him to go all out."


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Edo Itachi is at very least significantly stronger than his living self at any point in his life.



Immortal body is an undeniable advantage. Though jutsu and skillwise, they are the same. Significantly is an overexaggeration, we've heard Zetsu. He said that Itachi should have been alot stronger than what we saw. And the Edo version lived up to the standart Zetsu was talking about.


> And Orochimaru didn't even use Oral Rebirth, much less Yamata no Orochi.


Thats why I said close to it. 
He still had a major battle and used ET.


Turrin said:


> Itachi went all out in the Hebi-Sasuke fight, he literally went so far all out the strain killed him. Just because he wasn't aiming to kill Sasuke doesn't mean fighting w/o killer intent to rid Sasuke of Orochi didn't require him to go all out.


Thats exactly what it means. Considering how powerful and lethal his MS arsenal is, using it with killer intent would make the fight a whole alot different. 



> This is thee same arc that Jiraiya went all out and we got to see Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu [Yamata no Orochi].


Yeah, that makes it clear that Itachi is on a different tier than the sannin. He fought a Sannin level opponent when he was in his deathbed, while holding back on top of it. 
Even the nerfed Itachi's power made all the sannin pale in comparison.  There is a reason why Itachi vs Sasuke battle happened after Jiraiya vs Half Pain's battle. 
We got to see stronger and more advanced stuff.



> As far as Edo-Itachi goes, I agree he's stronger than the Sannin, but not by nearly enough where he's relevant to the end game power-scale of Juubi Jins and Hagoromo Power Characters, he's just a slightly powered up version of someone who used to be one of the old top dogs [Sannin, Minato, Hiruzen], before all the Juubi/Kaguya/Hagoromo bullshit hit the scene.



I never claimed  that Itachi was even remotely comparable to end of war arc characters. No one is.

There is Itachi/Minato/Nagato tier, and then Madara/Hashirama/BM Naruto/BM Minato tier and then Rikodou power tier.

And there are pretty major gaps in between all these tiers.


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## Turrin (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats exactly what it means. Considering how powerful and lethal his MS arsenal is, using it with killer intent would make the fight a whole alot different.


Yeah it would make the fight easier, thus not necessitating him to go all out. However as the fight actually was in the manga he needed to and in-fact did go all out.



> Yeah, that makes it clear that Itachi is on a different tier than the sannin. He fought a Sannin level opponent when he was in his deathbed, while holding back on top of it.
> Even the nerfed Itachi's power made all the sannin pale in comparison.
> We got to see stronger and more advanced stuff.


Translation. A Nerfed Itachi beat a Nerfed Sannin with his strongest attack, yet somehow that means the Sannin pale in-comparison to Itachi 



> There is a reason why Itachi vs Sasuke battle happened after Jiraiya vs Half Pain's battle.


Are you saying Itachi's fight contained more advanced techniques than Rinnegan and Pain-Rikudo? 



> I never claimed that Itachi was even remotely comparable to end of war arc characters. No one is.


So he is also irrelevant on the end-game powerscale as I said......



> There is Itachi/Minato/Nagato tier, and then Madara/Hashirama/BM Naruto/BM Minato tier and then Rikodou power tier.


Itachi on Nagato's tier  

Nagato is above Itachi, and Itachi is closer to the Sannin, by his own admission. 



> And there are pretty major gaps in between all these tiers.


Yup and the most major one of all being between Nagato and Itachi....


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Itachi used his Mangekyo, his strongest power



Itachi's strongest power are the legendary items.


----------



## StarWanderer (May 22, 2015)

> Edo Itachi is at very least significantly stronger than his living self at any point in his life.



Edo Tensei characters are weaker then alive characters.


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## Yagura (May 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Immortal body is an undeniable advantage. Though jutsu and skillwise, they are the same. Significantly is an overexaggeration, we've heard Zetsu. He said that Itachi should have been alot stronger than what we saw. And the Edo version lived up to the standart Zetsu was talking about.



His skills would be hindered by declining eyesight and his progressively worsening disease, as would his physical ability and chakra capacity. And consider the fact he doesn't suffer the recoil of using Mangekyo... than yeah, Edo Itachi should be significantly stronger than a living Itachi even at his best.

If anything, 'significantly' might be an understatement. 

And we have no idea what 'Zetsu's standard' was.



> Yeah, that makes it clear that Itachi is on a different tier than the sannin. He fought a Sannin level opponent when he was in his deathbed, while holding back on top of it.
> Even the nerfed Itachi's power made all the sannin pale in comparison.


Just a few things,
-He had no reason to hold back against Orochimaru. 
-Orochimaru was also nerfed, what with his arms being sealed and using the 'last of his strength' according to the data book.
-Itachi's physical condition is not relevant to how Susano'o performs.

Nerfs aside, all in all, we saw an exchange of the strongest jutsu between Itachi and a Sannin. Itachi, being stronger, naturally came out on top. However - the very fact that he had to use his trump card does not imply some huge gap.


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## Sadgoob (May 22, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Nerfs aside, all in all, we saw an exchange of the strongest jutsu between Itachi and a Sannin. Itachi, being stronger, naturally came out on top. However - the very fact that he had to use his trump card does not imply some huge gap.



The disadvantageous circumstances of it occurring at the very end of a seemingly grueling battle, its swiftness, Itachi's casual attitude, and Zetsu further hyping up Itachi as usually being much stronger afterward makes a huge gap in _portrayal_ a solid argument.

Do you really think the author thought, "the readers will know Itachi used is best tool to defeat Orochimaru, and that there's only a small gap between them when Itachi's at his best." when doing that? I really don't think so. He wanted us to go "woah, Itachi. Nice."​


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## Alex Payne (May 22, 2015)

Yagura said:


> Nerfs aside, all in all, we saw an exchange of the strongest jutsu between Itachi and a Sannin. Itachi, being stronger, naturally came out on top. However - the very fact that he had to use his trump card does not imply some huge gap.


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## Alucardemi (May 22, 2015)

Sannin?

Solo King be like



"I hate dealing with fodder"


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## Yagura (May 22, 2015)

I sincerely hope this thread doesn't devolve into spamming Itachi panels.  

*@ Strategoob* I never said the gap was small. It's sigificant, to be sure.

But I'm not interested in arguing authors intent tbh. I'll just assess what's shown.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yeah it would make the fight easier, thus not necessitating him to go all out. However as the fight actually was in the manga he needed to and in-fact did go all out.


Holding back and going all out are @ the different ends of the spectrum. You can't have both.



> Translation. A Nerfed Itachi beat a Nerfed Sannin with his strongest attack, yet somehow that means the Sannin pale in-comparison to Itachi


Ok let me rephrase it.
Itachi defeated a sannin level opponent in his death bed while holding back, and then defeated an actual sannin emerging with his strongest jutsu in literally 10 seconds by using his own strongest Jutsu.
If Itachi's strongest jutsu can stomp Orochimaru's strongest jutsu, doesn't that indicate a massive gap between the two?



> Are you saying Itachi's fight contained more advanced techniques than Rinnegan and Pain-Rikudo?


I didn't say that. 
I said Itachi vs Sasuke fight had more advanced techniques than the Jiraiya vs Pain fight, not necessarily Rinnegan and Pain's whole arsenal, considering Pain also didn't go all out in that fight.



> Itachi on Nagato's tier


He clearly is, from both the narrative and battledome perspective.



> Nagato is above Itachi, and Itachi is closer to the Sannin, by his own admission.


I agree that Nagato is more powreful, but definitely not on a different tier. 

And please, don't bring up that statement which was made god know how many years ago before either Itachi or Jiraiya barely had showings or any development.
If you insist on doing it, then I'll have to play the "Itachi was a "double agent" card.
You don't want to go into that izanamiloop. 



> Yup and the most major one of all being between Nagato and Itachi....



Well I can live with that. That means with some back up from Naruto and B, Itachi can destroy Rikodou Sennin in 8 pages. 



Yagura said:


> His skills would be hindered by declining eyesight



But they didn't, so it is irrelevant.


> and his progressively worsening disease, as would his physical ability and chakra capacity.


Based on Zetsu's observation, Itachi wasn't that ill @ some point in his life. The illness was a plot nerf anyways.



> And consider the fact he doesn't suffer the recoil of using Mangekyo... than yeah, Edo Itachi should be significantly stronger than a living Itachi even at his best.


From the battledome perspective yeah, but in the manga he didn't abuse MS techniques even as an edo, so it hardly matters.



> If anything, 'significantly' might be an understatement.


Yeaaaah no. I hate repeating myself but, Zetsu clearly said "Itachi should have been much stronger than this."
Edo Itachi justified that statement, nothing more. Lets move on.



> And we have no idea what 'Zetsu's standard' was.


We actually did. "Itachi should have been much stronger."



> Just a few things,
> -He had no reason to hold back against Orochimaru.


I was mainly talking about Sasuke. I know he didn't hold back against Oro.



> -Orochimaru was also nerfed, what with his arms being sealed and using the 'last of his strength' according to the data book.


Well his arms could work fine, he had a firm grab on his sword. 

And last of his strength happens to be his ultimate jutsu according to the Databook, and he got steamrolled with no difficulty or whatsoever.



> Itachi's physical condition is not relevant to how Susano'o performs.


Susano'o drains the users life energy. Sasuke expressed that he was having trouble maintaining the ribcage Susano'O. That means if you'r already physically handicapped, using Susano'o would be alot harder.


> the very fact that he had to use his trump card does not imply some huge gap.


Not when he stomped his opponent in a couple of pages, and asked Sasuke if he had more with a smirk on his face. That is the definition of a huge gap.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Holding back and going all out are @ the different ends of the spectrum. You can't have both.
> .


It depends what is being held back. Here it's killer-intent. Therefore someone can go all out to subdue someone else w/o killing them.



> Itachi defeated a sannin level opponent in his death bed while holding back then defeated an actual sannin emerging with his strongest jutsu in literally 10 seconds by using his own strongest Jutsu.


Translation, nerfed Itachi beat someone whose much weaker than a Sannin, than proceeded to beat a nerfed sannin's strongest jutsu w/ his strongest Jutsu, in a time period in which one would expect most final clashes to last.



> If Itachi's strongest jutsu can stomp Orochimaru's strongest jutsu, doesn't that indicate a massive gap between the two?


No it indicates they are very close, because Itachi needed to use his strongest Jutsu to prevail over Orochimaru's strongest Jutsu. A massive gap is when someone can own someone else's best technique w/o resorting to anywhere near their best. Think Sasori owning Kankuro in Hiroku or Nagato owning Shizune w/ just Human-Path. That's a massive gap. This isn't even a large or moderate gap, it's just Itachi being marginally better as his strongest Jutsu was better than Oro's strongest Jutsu.



> I said Itachi vs Sasuke fight had more advanced techniques than the Jiraiya vs Pain fight, not necessarily Rinnegan and Pain's whole arsenal, considering Pain also didn't go all out in that fight.


Nagato used the Pain Rikudo Jutsu in that fight. He used Shared vision and multiple 6 Path techniques. Your are thus saying what Itachi showed is more high "level" than that, which is laughable sir.



> He clearly is, from both the narrative and battledome perspective.


Sorry this just isn't even worth my time, because it's so far into denial land



> I agree that Nagato is more powreful, but definitely not on a different tier.


  



> And please, don't bring up that statement which was made god know how many years ago before either Itachi or Jiraiya barely had showings or any development.
> If you insist on doing it, then I'll have to play the "Itachi was a "double agent" card.


Cool, and I don't give a dam, because as a double agent him lying in such a way still doesn't make any sense.

So yes, I will continue to bring that up until Itachi-fans can come up with a compelling reason to disregard that statement, which isn't fanfiction, but for nearly a decade now the argument has always been fanfiction, so I don't really expect to see that changing any time soon.



> You don't want to go into that


It's not a loop. I accept cannon and you don't, it's literally that simply.



> Well I can live with that. That means with some back up from Naruto and B, Itachi can destroy Rikodou Sennin in 8 pages


Nah I was saying the difference between Nagato and Itachi is large than your other proposed tiers differences. 

Nagato is closer to BM-Naruto, than Itachi is to Nagato. Hashirama is closer to a Juubi-Jin, than Itachi is Nagato. And so on.

The gap between Itachi and Nagato is literally that large. Nagato beat someone around Itachi's "level" [Jiraiya] with little difficulty. He than proceeded to beat someone else around Itachi's "level" [Pain Arc Naruto with Prep] after soloing an entire village and being handicapped, than went on to fight something above Itachi's "level" in KN6-8, and than fought someone around Itachi's "level" again [SM-Naruto], and still had to off himself. Than Edo-Itachi needed the help of B and Naruto to beat a watered down Nagato whose Rinnegan wasn't at full power and was use improperly by Kabuto. Nagato's dojutsu is also 2 steps above Itachi's, on-top of him also having the body of an Uzamaki, all of his techniques and skills are eons above Itachi's, with him possessing albeit on a lesser scale thee strongest Technique in cannon [Chibaku Tensei]. Given Nagato's display he could solo all of Konohagakuru and than proceed to defeat 2 if not 3 Itachi's back to back. I don't see a Juubi Jin being able to do something of similar scale relavant to their standings to Hashirama or BM-Naruto being able to do something similar to Nagato..


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Itachi beats them both. He has too many powers they cant counter. 



> I agree that Nagato is more powreful, but definitely not on a different tier.
> 
> And please, don't bring up that statement which was made god know how many years ago before either Itachi or Jiraiya barely had showings or any development.
> If you insist on doing it, then I'll have to play the "Itachi was a "double agent" card.
> You don't want to go into that izanamiloop.



Nagato wont go to Izanami loop because Itachi wont be able to put him in Izanami thanks to either ST, or CT which Itachi cant counter at all. To do Izanami, a sharingan user needs to "tape" few enemies movements in his Sharingan, on a short distance. It is an impossible maneuver for Itachi in a fight against Nagato. Itachi cant do anything to Nagato while Nagato can easily babyshake him with ST and CT.

That means Nagato is on a different, higher tier.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Nagato beat someone around Itachi's "level" [Jiraiya] with little difficulty.



Itachi's Karasu Bunshin neg-diffed someone around base Jiraiya's level [Post-wind Naruto]. Just saying.

And Nagato said at the end of the fight with Sage Jiraiya that he would _never_ have won if Jiraiya had knowledge from the start. And Itachi has knowledge on Nagato. So there you go.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 23, 2015)

> Nagato beat someone around Itachi's "level" [Jiraiya] with little difficulty.



I'm not sure getting half your team slaughtered and losing track of your one-armed target you outnumber 6-1, who you only finished because he chose to stay and gain knowledge instead of escaping counts as "a little difficulty."


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## StarWanderer (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's Karasu Bunshin neg-diffed someone around base Jiraiya's level [Post-wind Naruto]. Just saying.
> 
> And Nagato said at the end of the fight with Sage Jiraiya that he would _never_ have won if Jiraiya had knowledge from the start. And Itachi has knowledge on Nagato. So there you go.​



Styles make fights. Itachi doesnt have sound-based genjutsu in his arsenal. Itachi has nothing Pain/Nagato cant counter.

But that's off-top. Itachi beats The Sannin anyway.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

if itachi is truly superior to the 2 why restrict edo tensei




its odd how people always diss orochimaru but make sure to take his best ability away


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## Duhul10 (May 23, 2015)

The sannins mid diff at best for Itachi
Put Jiraiya in sm from the beginning and give Oro ET and they low diff at best for Itachi


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi's Karasu Bunshin neg-diffed someone around base Jiraiya's level [Post-wind Naruto]. Just saying.​



And Base-Jiraiya canonically forced Itachi to use his second strongest technique to survive one of his.

“月読”はおろか…“天照”まで使わされてはな…
After all, "Tsukuyomi" was bad enough... But now I've been forced to use even "Amaterasu"...



> And Nagato said at the end of the fight with Sage Jiraiya that he would never have won if Jiraiya had knowledge from the start. And Itachi has knowledge on Nagato. So there you go.


The actual japanese is. "I'm guessing we wouldn't have won if our secret didn't exist". "だろう" is to "guess". So Pain is simply "guess" he could have lost, and it's not certain at all. Secondly one needs to consider the usage "we". The sentence is very clearly talking about Pain loosing and not Nagato, "我ら" is "we"/"us". So at best Jiraiya could have had a chance of beating Pain-Rikudo under extremely beneficial circumstances. That doesn't put Jiraiya anywhere near Nagato's "league".



> And Itachi has knowledge on Nagato.


You mean Edo-Itachi? If so than Nagato also has knowledge of Itachi. Itachi would need to have full knowledge, while Nagato has limit for him to stand a chance of defeating just Pain-Rikudo, but than ultimately loosing to Nagato still. Even than I don't think his chances are as good as Jiraiya's, because he lacks a well suited triumph card like Jiraiya's Magen Gamarinsho, that is able to take down multiple bodies at once. Even still if he managed to pull such off, it would still only amount to overcoming with extreme diff simply one of Nagato's Jutsu w/ massive advantages. 



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I'm not sure getting half your team slaughtered and losing track of your one-armed target you outnumber 6-1, who you only finished because he chose to stay and gain knowledge instead of escaping counts as "a little difficulty."


Half the team wasn't slaughtered they were revived by Naraka. Ultimately Pain lost 1 body to Jiriaya, which was easily replaced. And Pain amounts to a Jutsu of Nagato, who was safely kicking back in his chair w/o being touched once. If one party suffers no damage, no major strain to their stamina or otherwise, doesn't need to use any of their triumphs, and is no worse for the wear after the battle, I consider that Low-Diff, maybe at the higher end of Low-diff, like Low [High] diff, but no more than that. That's not to say Jiraiya didn't perform well, because considering his enemy he performed very well better than pretty much all of Konoha prior to Naruto's arrival and CST, but it's just that Nagato is that strong.

I mean otherwise what diff, would you say he had with Fully-Prep-out SM-Naruto, who managed to defeat more bodies than Jiriaya, but was still defeated by a handicapped Pain, w/o Pain having to resort to any of his more powerful Jutsu. Than there's KN6 where he had to resort to one of his strongest Jutsu, but still had an even higher usage of it left, considering he says he could use a larger CT:  "I may need to create an even larger - //", and still had yet to use his real body.

Clearly Jiraiya fight was more some variation of Low-Diff for Nagato, while SM-Naruto considering Naruto's advantages and his disavantages was more along the lines of Moderate Diff, and KN6-8 was more along the lines of High Diff. With nothing pushing him to extreme diff.​


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## Eliyua23 (May 23, 2015)

Funny thing is with further revelations we got in the story, Itachi maybe weaker than all 3 of them individually


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And Base-Jiraiya canonically forced Itachi to use his second strongest technique to survive one of his.



Kisame certainly didn't think Mangekyō techniques were a necessity to beat Jiraiya, considering he asked Itachi to stop using them, and yet was shocked Itachi decided to retreat. 

On the other hand, whatever a double-agent tells his "partner" as to why they can't kill the side he's truly loyal to is obviously subject to skepticism. It's not proof of anything.​


Turrin said:


> The actual japanese is. "I'm guessing we wouldn't have won if our secret didn't exist". "だろう" is to "guess". So Pain is simply "guess" he could have lost, and it's not certain at all. Secondly one needs to consider the usage "we". The sentence is very clearly talking about Pain loosing and not Nagato, "我ら" is "we"/"us". So at best Jiraiya could have had a chance of beating Pain-Rikudo under extremely beneficial circumstances. That doesn't put Jiraiya anywhere near Nagato's "league".



I don't know how you came to that conclusion when Nagato's own estimate is that he probably (he was guessing) he would have lost if Jiraiya had known. So it does put him in his league. 

And give Jiraiya zero knowledge against Itachi's eye techniques and keep talking about "leagues." He'd have no chance of avoiding them with Deidara-level speed (at best) and arrogant showmanship.​


Turrin said:


> You mean Edo-Itachi?



No, I mean living Itachi. Itachi clearly had some knowledge of the Rinnegan's powers, and we would expect him to given he was gathering intelligence on Akatsuki for ten years.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

why has this turned into itachi being compared with nagato 
oh wow got a thread idea nagato vs the sannin lets see how that goes.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> why has this turned into itachi being compared with nagato
> oh wow got a thread idea nagato vs the sannin lets see how that goes.



Nagato put more effort into his Sannin fight than Itachi put into either of his.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

you mean nagato through the use of pain fighting jiraiya in sage mode?

while itachi used susanoo something orochimaru had knowledge of, however lacked knowledge of totsuka which is why he didn't avoid it. then yh sure itachi had it easier due to his jutsu not his level

simple reason minato trolled obito while people on minato level eg: itachi would not do so at all or even with the same level of ease

obito can 1 panel 99% of high kage shinobi due to his 1 jutsu doesn't mean the 1% who he cant are stronger 

that's an awful of looking at things, itachi had the perfect counter to orochimaru jutsu. a sealing sword

and like I said orochimaru had knowledge of susanoo. notice his lack of awe at seeing MS most powerful jutsu, despite being the biggest sharingan fan girl


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kisame certainly didn't think Mangekyō techniques were a necessity to beat Jiraiya, considering he asked Itachi to stop using them, and yet was shocked Itachi decided to retreat. ​



Provide panels and I will look at the raw.



> On the other hand, whatever a double-agent tells his "partner" as to why they can't kill the side he's truly loyal to is obviously subject to skepticism. It's not proof of anything.


Itachi lying about Jiraiya's strength doesn't make any sense whatsoever. It never has and it never will. Itachi had much more suitable excuses, that were actually true he could have told Kisame and lying by saying he can fight evenly with Jiraiya doesn't even make sense if his goal was to indicate with Jiriaya around their mission was hopeless. So no it's just a denial of cannon on your part, plain and simple.



> I don't know how you came to that conclusion when Nagato's own estimate is that he probably (he was guessing) he would have lost if Jiraiya had known. So it does put him in his league.


Please explain how having a chance to beat one of Nagato's Jutsu under extremely beneficial circumstances, puts Jiraiya in Nagato's "league". If that's your definition of similar "league" than your "leagues" are broader than fuck.



> And give Jiraiya zero knowledge against Itachi's eye techniques and keep talking about "leagues." He'd have no chance of avoiding them with Deidara-level speed (at best) and arrogant showmanship.


Chances are Jiraiya would catch onto Itachi's threat and opt for SM, before Itachi pulls out his higher end Dojutsu techniques that could actually end Jiraiya. With SM he avoids being raped thanks to his and Ma/Pa's Sennin Modo Sensing. This is of course a risk that Jiraiya could loose before than, but no greater than the risk of Itachi loosing to shit like Yomi Numa-Trap, Food-Cart-Destroyer,Toad Gourd Barrier-Seal, Shadow Capturing Tech, Transforming into Toad Tech, etc... So both could win against the other in no knowledge early on or the fight could still end up devolving into an extended match. 

The only way Jiraiya has no chance against Itachi. Is if Itachi starts w/ full knowledge and Jiraiya starts with limited to none, because that is such a huge advantage. Yah know kind of like the one Jiraiya needs to have merely a chance at defeating one of Nagato's Jutsu.



> No, I mean living Itachi. Itachi clearly had some knowledge of the Rinnegan's powers, and we would expect him to given he was gathering intelligence on Akatsuki for ten years.


Jiraiya had some knowledge of Rinnegan and the mythology behind it. He did not however know the extent of it's abilities and I very much doubt Itachi did. Jiraiya was specifically well suited to figuring out Pain's secret, being Nagato's pupil and having met all the shinobi that made up the Rikudo, but even he needed to die to finally discover that secret, and  the manga indicates no-one could have gotten as far as Jiraiya did in terms of uncovering Pain's secret, with Fusaku saying just that.. So no I do not think Itachi had all the necessary information on Pain's secret, like Pain was speculating if Jiraiya had he could have perhaps beaten the Rikudo.

But even if he did have this knowledge it wouldn't change their standings, as Nagato also had alot of knowledge on him,​


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## Kai (May 23, 2015)

It's stated in the manga that Pain had difficulty with Jiraiya. Tobi affirms it after Jiraiya's death.

Containing KN6 with Chibaku Tensei was an extreme difficult feat for an emaciated Nagato. But personally don't see how anyone from the Pain Arc is on Itachi's level.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Than Edo-Itachi needed the help of B and Naruto to beat a watered down Nagato whose Rinnegan wasn't at full power and was use improperly by Kabuto.


His Rinnegan was at full power. What a fake Rinnegan can't do was stated in the manga - summon the Gedo Mazo.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Nagato put more effort into his Sannin fight than Itachi put into either of his.


That's not even close to being accurate. Nagato kicked back in his chair allowing one of his Jutsu to fight Jiraiya, and using an amount of chakra that we would later see is a mere small fraction of his total supply. On the other hand Itachi needed to use his strongest Jutsu which blinds him and shaves his life away to defeat Orochimaru, and he needed to use Amaterasu his second strongest Jutsu that taxes heavily to survive one of Jiraiya's Jutsu. 

Or to put it another way.

Nagato Low Diff'd Jiraiya
Handicapped Itachi High Diff'd Handicapped Orochimaru
Itachi was having High diff with Jiraiya, and than the fight ended inconclusively.


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## Kai (May 23, 2015)

Gai needed the 7th Gate, but utterly trashed Kisame.
Naruto needed Sasuke, but they utterly trashed a one-eyed Madara.
Itachi may need Susanoo, but he trashes Orochimaru as shown.

Reading comprehension has tanked if you convince yourself to believe Itachi high-diffs Orochimaru.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

but isn't using susanoo already making it high diff
unless u think itachi with his low stamina using a jutsu that affects both his eyes and body is an easy task for him


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## Kai (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> but isn't using susanoo already making it high diff
> unless u think itachi with his low stamina using a jutsu that affects both his eyes and body is an easy task for him


How much was Itachi affected from the start of engaging Orochimaru to the end? Itachi, who was already at death's door, took minimal consequences in defeating Orochimaru.

Susanoo ends him immediately. Itachi could also only detect through felted presence at that point.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Provide panels and I will look at the raw.



I prefer the official viz over fan interpretation:



Kisame warned Itachi about using his eyes so much that day.



Kisame thought Itachi would beat down Jiraiya despite the above.



Turrin said:


> Itachi lying about Jiraiya's strength doesn't make any sense whatsoever.



Yes, it does. Feeding into "Jiraiya's" hype gave Itachi a believable reason to engage and kill one of Konoha's most valuable allies. After seeing what Jiraiya was made of, however, Kisame _wasn't buying it_.



Turrin said:


> Chances are Jiraiya would catch onto Itachi's threat and opt for SM



Getting into SM against _Animal Path_ and getting into SM against _MS Itachi_ are different ballparks. And chances are without knowledge he arrogantly makes eye contact and gets his hand cut off like Orochimaru before him:


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> It's stated in the manga that Pain had difficulty with Jiraiya. Tobi affirms it after Jiraiya's death.
> .


WZ, "That took a fair bit of time"
BZ, "Well his opponent was Jiraiya"

Tobi, "The invincible ability Pain" "Had to trouble"
Pain, "Nevertheless I got rid of him"

These are the two statements your referring to I assume. 

Firstly both statements are referring to Pain, not Nagato, having some difficult with Jiraiya. Secondly I never said he didn't have difficult, I said Nagato himself didn't have more than Low [High] Difficulty with Jiraiya. 



> Containing KN6 with Chibaku Tensei was an extreme difficult feat for an emaciated Nagato.


How can something be extreme difficulty when Nagato still had more powerful stuff to offer. GM, True-Body, and Larger CT. That's High-diff to me, while if he was forced to use those other things than it would be extreme diff.  



> But personally don't see how anyone from the Pain Arc is on Itachi's level.


Are you serious Kai. You think Itachi is on an entirely different "level" than a fully prepped out SM-Naruto, the entire Konohagakuru-Village, or KN6-8. Please tell me you are joking.



> His Rinnegan was at full power. What a fake Rinnegan can't do was stated in the manga - summon the Gedo Mazo.


This is incorrect. The Bijuu are simply surprised a Fake-Rinnegan had the power to summon GM, and than are altered to the fact that it is no longer a Fake-Rinnegan. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere does the text say that the only difference between a Fake-Rinnegan and Real-Rinnegan is summoning GM, rather the focus is on a difference in power in general. Not enough power to summon GM is just one example, and than right after that Madara says now he'll use Rinnegan at full power and than use a new all powerful Rinnegan technique he was never capable off as an Edo; Rinbo Hengoku:
repelled
repelled
repelled

So it seems to me in general the Fake-Rinnegan's power is inferior, but in fairness I didn't have time to read the raws so if you want me to go over specific statements I will.

But yeah the difference between having GM w/ 7 Bijuu sealed inside and not having GM, is massive in and off itself.



Kai said:


> Gai needed the 7th Gate, but utterly trashed Kisame.
> Naruto needed Sasuke, but they utterly trashed a one-eyed Madara.
> Itachi may need Susanoo, but he trashes Orochimaru as shown.
> 
> Reading comprehension has tanked if you convince yourself to believe Itachi high-diffs Orochimaru.


Honestly Kai what thefuck is this. Itachi uses his strongest Jutsu that cause extreme damage to his eyesight, costs a huge amount of his chakra, and shaves his life away to defeat Orochimaru, and that isn't High-Diff. But your sitting here arguing that Nagato had more than Low-Diff against Jiraiya, who he didn't use any of his triumph-cards against, didn't expand a relatively large amount of chakra on, and received no damage whatsoever. That make zero sense.

And yes when two characters clash their final jutsu it doesn't tend to last long. When AT Clashes with Daikodan, the clash ends quickly with Gai's victory, but that doesn't indicate Gai didn't have a considerable amount of difficult with Kisame having to resort to one of his strongest techniques that strains him greatly to win. But even than that comparison is not apt, as 7th-Gate and AT isn't his strongest Jutsu like Susano'o was for Itachi. The more apt example would be if Gai needed to use Night Gai to defeat Kisame, and than you said well since he beat him immediately after pulling that out, it wasn't High-Diff.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

@start all the scans shows is kisame felt itachi did not need to retreat 
it doesn't imply at all that kisame felt itachi could defeat jiriaya. 

All he felt was itachi was strong enough to fight jiriaya  

@kai 
perhaps you are right. however the use of susanoo causes harm to the body. if orochimaru knew totsuka seals he wont have gotten trolled by it.


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## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I prefer the official viz over fan interpretation:


Cool let's go with the Viz than.



> Kisame warned Itachi about using his eyes so much that day.


Again Genin Sasuke, not Jiraiya



> Kisame thought Itachi would beat down Jiraiya despite the above.


Fanfiction. He just asks why retreat. There mission wasn't to kill Jiraiya it was to capture Naruto. So most likely Kisame believes they could have had a chance at snatching Naruto, rather than believing they could kill Jiriaya.



> Yes, it does. Feeding into "Jiraiya's" hype gave Itachi a believable reason to engage and kill one of Konoha's most valuable allies. After seeing what Jiraiya was made of, however, Kisame wasn't buying it.


Itachi, "Bro Jiraiya's equal to me so we can't capture Naruto"
Kisame, "Brah why can't I just grab that Genin while you deal with Jiraiya"
Itachi, "shut up bro, just don't touch him kay"
Kisame, "I thought you were suppose to a genius bro and that's the best your weak ass could come up with"
Kisame, "I mean fuck like 1 chapter ago you had a better excuse about how fighting some tough would draw attention and back up would show up, what happened to that"
Itachi, "Lay off bro"





> Getting into SM against Animal Path and getting into SM against MS Itachi are different ballpark


Yeah Animal Path is harder, because Animal Path starts off with stronger shit than Itachi conventionally does. Boss-Summons Spam > Grand Firaball, Suitons, Taijutsu, Basic Genjutsu



> . And chances are without knowledge he arrogantly makes eye contact and gets his hand cut off like Orochimaru before him:


And how did things go in the hallway. That's right Itachi was forced to his second strongest Jutsu after Jiraiya's opening move.


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

I find it odd that people think 1 on 1 jiriaya cant get in SM against itachi 

the area certainly would make a difference. but FCD and make a run for it, setting up traps like toad mouth trap or toad gourd prison is more than enough to get into SM

which btw doesn't save jiraiya however makes it more of a match. to me itachi is overall better because he can power up quicker.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> I find it odd that people think 1 on 1 jiriaya cant get in SM against itachi
> 
> the area certainly would make a difference. but FCD and make a run for it.



Base Jiraiya's has the same speed stat and worse speed feats than Deidara. He's more likely to be blitzed or put in genjutsu long before he realizes he needs to make a run for it, even before Amaterasu and Susano'o come into the picture. And if Itachi really _did_ believe Jiraiya was a legitimate threat to him, then Susano'o and Amaterasu would come into the picture that much faster.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Base Jiraiya's has the same speed stat and worse speed feats than Deidara. He's more likely to be blitzed or put in genjutsu long before he realizes he needs to make a run for it, even before Amaterasu and Susano'o come into the picture. And if Itachi really _did_ believe Jiraiya was a legitimate threat to him, then Susano'o and Amaterasu would come into the picture that much faster.​



base jiriaya got a sensing barrier though and knows he is fighting a genjutsu user. partner method here would be used off the bat makes more sense. so even if itachi catches jiraiya in a genjutsu jiriaya would pick up the real itachi presence so genjutsu bar tskuyomi is a very moot point

itachi could believe jiriaya is a threat and opt for MS off the bat which btw he needs to not die by FCD. 

so yh thank god he has it. 

jiriaya doesn't need some crazy level of base speed to react and defend itachi. jugo base speed is shit to V1 A. and he reacted just fine. 

so unless u want to imply the gap between jiraiya speed and itachi speed is more than that, then I have no reason why u bring up the word blitz bar trying too/  I don't get why the word blitz was mentioned.


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## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Plus straight-up running away and hiding for a few minutes kind of defeats the purpose of an encounter in my mind.​


Icegaze said:


> jugo base speed is shit to V1 A. and he reacted just fine.



_CS2_ Jugo was almost immediately knocked out by v1 A.​


Icegaze said:


> jiriaya doesn't need some crazy level of base speed to react and defend itachi.



He actually does. Bee was getting warnings for Itachi's movements. Ninja at Deidara/Jiraiya's reflex level won't be reacting in time.​


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## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

he had an encounter with pain and straight up ran away
that's jiriaya style 
he has mastered the uchiha art of run it seems 

jiriaya got all the tools he will ever need to get into SM. like I said itachi is superior because he could decide off the bat, I don't like jiriaya and use amaterasu or tskuyomi to end it I don't see why not

however this is 2 on 1. so even if he decides to go all nuts with MS. taking both down is beyond him. 

lets see off the bat he throws a hissy fit and uses tskuyomi. chances are he takes 1 out, orochimaru got solid I have been trolled by those eyes before so I assume he will close them once he sees itachi MS 

so itachi uses tskuyomi and takes out jiriaya for example. what stops orochimaru from utterly trolling and bringing jiriaya back to life with ET using jiraiya own body. eh?

or using any number of bodies he got stored in his scroll?


----------



## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so itachi uses tskuyomi and takes out jiriaya for example. what stops orochimaru from utterly trolling and bringing jiriaya back to life with ET using jiraiya own body. eh?



If Orochimaru is restricted to part one Edo Tensei ability, then the resurrected Jiraiya would be a much weaker, negligible version.

If Orochimaru has his EoS Edo Tensei ability, then he would solo Itachi and all of Akatsuki with minimal difficulty.​


----------



## Kai (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> WZ, "That took a fair bit of time"
> BZ, "Well his opponent was Jiraiya"
> 
> Tobi, "The invincible ability Pain" "Had to trouble"
> ...


I mentioned Pain had trouble with Jiraiya. He had a fair amount of difficulty against Jiraiya, and we don't need to count the amount of cuts & bruises on the body of Nagato himself to determine that.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> How can something be extreme difficulty when Nagato still had more powerful stuff to offer. GM, True-Body, and Larger CT. That's High-diff to me, while if he was forced to use those other things than it would be extreme diff.





Nagato faces intense strain despite performing actions through _Pain._




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> This is incorrect. The Bijuu are simply surprised a Fake-Rinnegan had the power to summon GM, and than are altered to the fact that it is no longer a Fake-Rinnegan. Nowhere and I repeat nowhere does the text say that the only difference between a Fake-Rinnegan and Real-Rinnegan is summoning GM, rather the focus is on a difference in power in general. Not enough power to summon GM is just one example, and than right after that Madara says now he'll use Rinnegan at full power and than use a new all powerful Rinnegan technique he was never capable off as an Edo; Rinbo Hengoku:
> here
> here
> here
> ...



Correction: *Madara*, who is the original owner of the Rinnegan, couldn't bring forth the full power of his Rinnegan. 

Nagato, who was never the original owner, had no set back on his own awakened powers.

The Bijuu questioned how Madara can summon the Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan. Meaning, this is the only thing that was said as a distinction not that I stated no other distinction exists. Don't get me wrong on that. Nothing on a difference of power was stated - it could be a compatibility issue between the powers.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Honestly Kai what thefuck is this. Itachi uses his strongest Jutsu that cause extreme damage to his eyesight, costs a huge amount of his chakra, and shaves his life away to defeat Orochimaru, and that isn't High-Diff. But your sitting here arguing that Nagato had more than Low-Diff against Jiraiya, who he didn't use any of his triumph-cards against, didn't expand a relatively large amount of chakra on, and received no damage whatsoever. That make zero sense.


No, what doesn't make sense is expressing a possibility of loss after a low difficulty victory. Pain had trouble against Jiraiya, thus praising him on the possibility of how they (Pain) could have lost.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> And yes when two characters clash their final jutsu it doesn't tend to last long. When AT Clashes with Daikodan, the clash ends quickly with Gai's victory, but that doesn't indicate Gai didn't have a considerable amount of difficult with Kisame having to resort to one of his strongest techniques that strains him greatly to win. But even than that comparison is not apt, as 7th-Gate and AT isn't his strongest Jutsu like Susano'o was for Itachi. The more apt example would be if Gai needed to use Night Gai to defeat Kisame, and than you said well since he beat him immediately after pulling that out, it wasn't High-Diff.


Except when Itachi uses Susanoo to defeat Orochimaru, we're not given a high difficulty fight.

You stating Itachi needs his strongest jutsu that causes a ton of strain to win only sounds harder than what the manga shows. In context, Itachi defeats Orochimaru without overexertion or any signs that lead us to a high difficulty fight. There's also no 'epic' atmosphere during their clash, making the situation one sided as it should.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 23, 2015)

Yeah that is obviously a fallacy.

Itachi may have needed(no evidence regarding this, he more like needed it to make short work of him and seal him) Susano'o to defeat Orochimaru. But the power Susano'o gives Itachi basically creates a massive gap between Orochimaru and him. Just because Itachi used his strongest move doesn't make it a high difficulty fight, considering Itachi had no difficulty destroying Orochimaru in a few moves.

Itachi basically oneshot Orochimaru in that encounter. Hell, as a guy who was about to die, he even made fun of that situation, "got anything else, Sasuke ?" That shows how seriously he takes Orochimaru. 
Even as a kid, he cut off Orochimaru's hand and said "all of your jutsus are completely useless against these eyes" with the same smile on his face.
The author can't do anything more to show a significant power gap between 2 shinobi.

If you still think Orochimaru and Itachi are somewhat close in power, or that Orochimaru can give Itachi a tough fight, you are either brain damaged, or in complete denial or both.


----------



## Rocky (May 23, 2015)

Yeah, saying Madara needed extreme difficulty for the five Kage because he used his most powerful (and likely strenuous) technique sounds off to me.


----------



## Alucardemi (May 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> But the power Susano'o gives Itachi basically creates a massive gap between Orochimaru and him.



Same case of gap creation between Madara and the Gokage, tbh.

He may have needed Perfect Susanoo to one-shot them in that instance, just like Itachi used his Susanoo to one-panel Orochimaru. Doesn't mean the five kage come even close to that jutsu's power, or can give a fight in-front of it.

Your best jutsu can put you tiers above someone else, that's all that it comes down to in the end.

Edit: Holy crap, absolutely ninja'd above lol


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Base Jiraiya's has the same speed stat and worse speed feats than Deidara. He's more likely to be blitzed or put in genjutsu long before he realizes he needs to make a run for it, even before Amaterasu and Susano'o come into the picture. And if Itachi really _did_ believe Jiraiya was a legitimate threat to him, then Susano'o and Amaterasu would come into the picture that much faster.​



 Well, Kisame did suggest that Part 1 Itachi would have been capable of defeating Jiraiya despite being fatigued, so Part 1 Itachi was likely noticeably higher than Jiraiya if we go strictly by statements, though feats suggest that even Sick Itachi would defeat Base Jiraiya easier than what has been suggested.


----------



## Icegaze (May 23, 2015)

can jiriaya fight with his eyes closed and use his sensing barrier. if so genjutsu is out the door

why cant the fire scroll which on panel sealed amaterasu. seal amaterasu here if used on jiriaya

considering hebi had the speed to attempt outrunning it why cant jiriaya just put his hand up to prevent it hitting his face?

hachibi did the same with tentacle btw


----------



## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Jiraiya says against pain that sensing (let alone the sensing barrier) is not a substitute for eyesight. He'll get mowed down if he tries closing his eyes and relying on that barrier.​


----------



## Turrin (May 23, 2015)

Kai said:


> I mentioned Pain had trouble with Jiraiya. He had a fair amount of difficulty against Jiraiya, .


The Jutsu Pain had a fair amount of difficult with Jiraiya, I agree. Nagato on the other hand had Low-Difficulty with Jiraiya.



> and we don't need to count the amount of cuts & bruises on the body of Nagato himself to determine that


How exactly do you determine difficulty Kai? If effort exerted does not factor into your calculations.



> Nagato faces intense strain despite performing actions through Pain.


Sorry, but I can't take this point seriously when out of the other side of your mouth your simultaneously arguing Itachi using a Jutsu that does this to him doesn't constitute even high diff:









And before you or anyone else even start, with but but Itachi fought Hebi-Sasuke before this and it's the accumulated strain  

Nagato fought a goddam entire village and fully prepped out SM-Naruto, before using CT against KN6. So you can cry me a fucking river about accumulated strain 

So yeah, you want me to take your shit seriously, don't come at me with your ridiculously blatant double standards. 



> Correction: Madara, who is the original owner of the Rinnegan, couldn't bring forth the full power of his Rinnegan.
> 
> Nagato, who was never the original owner, had no set back on his own awakened powers.


Correction: Rinnegan in general could not bring out it's full powers in fake version. Madara could use Rinnegan better than Nagato in some regards and to a lesser extent in other regards. However nothing and I repeat nothing says Nagato's other Rinnegan techniques weren't also depowered by fake-Rinnegan. So your just assuming that. 

What I'm saying is regardless of whether his other Jutsu were depowered or not, his Rinnegan powers were weaker because he couldn't summon GM and that's a fact.



> The Bijuu questioned how Madara can summon the Gedo Mazo with a fake Rinnegan. Meaning, this is the only thing that was said as a distinction not that I stated no other distinction exists. Don't get me wrong on that. Nothing on a difference of power was stated - it could be a compatibility issue between the powers.


What else did Madara due with Rinnegan in-front of the Bijuu? 



> No, what doesn't make sense is expressing a possibility of loss after a low difficulty victory. Pain had trouble against Jiraiya, thus praising him on the possibility of how they (Pain) could have lost.


Possibly loosing under widely different conditions literally has nothing to do with how much difficulty someone had in that actual fight. They are inherently two separate situations.



> xcept when Itachi uses Susanoo to defeat Orochimaru, we're not given a high difficulty fight.


Just using Final Form Susano'o makes it high-diff. Why, because it's Itachi's strongest Technique _and _ it taxes him heavily both in the short term through consuming a massive amount of chakra, and in the long term by shaving his life away and blinding him. Anyone that goes that far to defeat someone is at-least having high-diff. Pretty much for the same reason that your saying Nagato had Extreme-diff with KN6-8.



> You stating Itachi needs his strongest jutsu that causes a ton of strain to win only sounds harder than what the manga shows. In context, Itachi defeats Orochimaru without overexertion or any signs that lead us to a high difficulty fight.


What the fuck fight did you read 

See above sir, see above....



> There's also no 'epic' atmosphere during their clash,


Again It's like you read a totally different story:





> , making the situation one sided as it should.


Your argument for is basically nonsense because it's based entirely on time. Itachi defeated Orochimaru quickly so nothing else matters. The technique he used, how much it exhausts him doesn't matter, nothing else matters. Which basically amounts to the argument that if Gai went 8th-Gate and use Night-Guy defeating somoene in the milisecond it took him to land that attack, that Gai wouldn't have had even high diff with that individual, despite the fact that he'd have died to use Night-Gai. Which makes no fucking sense. I'm sorry it just doesn't.



Rocky said:


> Yeah, saying Madara needed extreme difficulty for the five Kage because he used his most powerful (and likely strenuous) technique sounds off to me.


Madara's Susano'o doesn't shave his life away because he's an Edo. It doesn't hurt his eyesight, because he's an Edo and has EMS. It doesn't cost him a huge amount of his chakra to utilize as he had a massive supply and was an Edo. And P-Susano'o is not Madara's strongest Technique, his strongest technique is Kyuubi-Gundam-Susano'o, it's just that Kyuubi was sealed away so he could not use his strongest technique at that time.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> TAnd before you or anyone else even start, with but but Itachi fought Hebi-Sasuke before this and it's the accumulated strain



Zetsu said it was as if Itachi had been severely wounded even before arriving to fight Hebi Sasuke. _Then_ he was exhausted and injured "losing" to Hebi Sasuke. _Then_ he paneled Orochimaru.

And whether he "needed" Susano'o or even his Mangekyō to beat Orochimaru is debatable. _It was just already out._ Genjutsu sufficed before, and now he had 10 years to improve its efficacy.​


----------



## Trojan (May 23, 2015)

> Zetsu said it was as if Itachi had been severely wounded even before arriving to fight Hebi Sasuke



He did not tho. Zetsu simply did not know the full story. And there are some retecon in that battle anyway.
Like Zetsu being surprised of Susanoo, and yet he supposedly saw the same jutsu before when Madara used it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2015)

> Half the team wasn't slaughtered they were revived by Naraka.



Being dead is prerequisite for being revived.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

> The Jutsu Pain had a fair amount of difficult with Jiraiya, I agree. Nagato on the other hand had Low-Difficulty with Jiraiya.



That makes no sense. 
you know that Nagato is using his own chakra, right?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2015)

That's like saying Animal Realm didn't have any difficulty facing Jiraiya.  _Animal's summons_ had difficulty.

Sasuke didn't have any trouble with Naruto's rasengan.  _Sasuke's chidori_ had difficulty with Naruto's rasengan.  

Hashirama didn't have any trouble with Madara.  Hashi's Bhudda statue had trouble with Madara.  Wait, Hashi didn't have any trouble.  Bad example.

Jutsu are an extension of their user, and their power.  Susano is OP but life threatening.  To force Itachi to use it is pushing him to use his trump card, because he doesn't want to ever use it.  Just as Guy doesn't want to have to go gates.  The ease of victory afterwards is irrelevant, because life endangering trump cards exist to give an overwhelming advantage at the cost of one's own life.  What's important is that they had to resort to it.  

(Yes, this includes the Gokage pushing Madara up to PS, because if he could have trashed them without it anytime before, he would have.)


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He did not tho.



He did tho.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

"maybe" that's not something he would say for something he knows for a fact. 

and what I meant is he did not know about itachi's "true intention".


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Zetsu said it was as if Itachi had been severely wounded even before arriving to fight Hebi Sasuke.​



And Orochimaru was on handicapped as well



> _Then_ he was exhausted and injured "losing" to Hebi Sasuke. .


Konogakuru >>>> Hebi-Sasuke
Fully Prepped SM-Naruto >>>>>> Hebi-Sasuke



> Then he paneled Orochimaru.


And by that logic Pain paneled KN6, the moment he used CT. 

KN6 >>>>> handicapped Orochimaru



> And whether he "needed" Susano'o or even his Mangekyō to beat Orochimaru is debatable. It was just already out. Genjutsu sufficed before, and now he had 10 years to improve its efficacy.


Explain to me why Orochimaru loosing a hand beats him, when he laughed off being cut in half by KN4 and said Giant sword being stabbed through him would never beat him. Go on I'm waiting



Hussain said:


> That makes no sense.
> you know that Nagato is using his own chakra, right?


Cool and pray tell what small fraction of his total chakra do you think he used, considering the amount of chakra he displayed in the Pain arc? 1/100th 1/50th. What are we talking about here exactly.​


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Everytime Tsunade uses Byakugo: Creation Rebirth, it's extreme difficulty? 

Trump Card? √

Life-shortening? √

Uses a ton of chakra? √

Well shit Tsunade...


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

How did you know that he used "small fraction"? 
He was also absorbing more chakra from more Ninja in konoha via Preta Path. 
So, his chakra was being constantly restored anyway. And at the end of the day, he died in konoha. 

Yes, he may have been at disadvantages in konoha most of the time, but he had them against Jiraiya. 
Regardless, may point is, just because he is using Pain or fighting throw them, that does not change the level
of difficult on him because unlike ET he is actually using his own power here

thats like saying the Rassengan and clones had high difficult fight with Pain, but not Naruto who's using them.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fully Prepped SM-Naruto >>>>>> Hebi-Sasuke



"Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke stomps the shit out of "Fully Prepped" Pain-Arc Naruto with Kirin at the beginning of the battle. 

"Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke would also do much better against Pain than Naruto considering Preta can't absorb natural lightning, and Deva Path was down. Pain would be screwed.

"Unprepped" Hebi Sasuke likewise blitzes the shit out of "Unprepped" base Naruto with a Chidori blade. So yeah. I never prescribed to the "Pain-Arc Naruto > Hebi Sasuke" thing.​


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Everytime Tsunade uses Byakugo: Creation Rebirth, it's extreme difficulty?
> 
> Trump Card? √
> 
> ...


Extreme diff no. High diff. Yes. If she needs to use her strongest Jutsu and it exhausts her extensively than yes that's High-Diff. Though of course the exhaustion part is dependent on how much chakra is in her Byakugo-Seal. If she has 2.5 Years worth and uses Byakugo for a few minutes, probably not High diff. If she has Sannin duel amounts and than uses Byakugo, for several minutes, than yeah it's probably high diff.



Hussain said:


> How did you know that he used "small fraction"?


List all the Jutsu Pain used in that fight. Than list all the ones he used in the Pain Arc. Or use Common Sense. Ether one, it's up to you.



> He was also absorbing more chakra from more Ninja in konoha via Preta Path.


Which goes to no one but Preta Path. As via the mechanics of Fujutsu Kyuuin it's absorbed into Preta Path's Body. 



> Regardless, may point is, just because he is using Pain or fighting throw them, that does not change the level


Yes it does effect the level of diff. The damage Jiraiya does to Pain does not effect Nagato, so he accumulates no injuries or exhaustion from facing Jiraiya other than the chakra he's using on Pain-Rikudo and Pain-Rikudo's techniques. Given his performance in the Pain-Arc though, that was a rather small amount of his total chakra he sent to them to deal with Jiraiya. 

I repeat. Nagato suffered no damage, didn't use any of his best techniques, and didn't use anywhere near a large portion of his chakra. So again what makes that fight more than Low-Diff for Nagato.



> thats like saying the Rassengan and clones had high difficult fight with Pain, but not Naruto who's using them.


If the real Naruto just hung back and had 6 clones fight someone that's exactly what we would be saying, that the clones had difficulty, not Naruto. Fuck when talking about Naruto's performance in the war we don't say a single clone's performance equals how Naruto at full power would perform. We say Dat-Clone had X difficulty with Sandaime-Raikage, "dat" other clone had X difficult with Kimi, and so on. Literally see you do that shit all the time too.



Strategoob said:


> "Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke stomps the shit out of "Fully Prepped" Pain-Arc Naruto with Kirin at the beginning of the battle.
> 
> "Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke would also do much better against Pain than Naruto considering Preta can't absorb natural lightning, and Deva Path was down.
> 
> "Unprepped" Hebi Sasuke likewise blitzes the shit out of "Unprepped" base Naruto.​


Cool this has nothing to do with anything, considering Itachi did not fight a "fully prepped" Hebi-Sasuke.

Though for the sake of logic and reason, I am forced to point out that if the definition of fully prepped is X character can start with whatever Jutsu they want on the field, than SM-Naruto starts with 3 KB and Multi-FRS in hand. Kirin hits a KB and does nothing and Hebi-Sasuke is raped by FRS a moment later.


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke stomps the shit out of "Fully Prepped" Pain-Arc Naruto with Kirin at the beginning of the battle.​



Makes ya' wonder why this didn't happen against Itachi.

Instead of dropping a lightning bolt on Itachi's head, he went in there and ran out of chakra getting past Itachi's illusions & Mangekyou (which likely wouldn't have even happened without Itachi's help in the first place).

Sauce is probably too full of himself to start with Kirin, even if he's given preparation time.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> "Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke stomps the shit out of "Fully Prepped" Pain-Arc Naruto with Kirin at the beginning of the battle.
> 
> "Fully prepped" Hebi Sasuke would also do much better against Pain than Naruto considering Preta can't absorb natural lightning, and Deva Path was down. Pain would be screwed.
> 
> "Unprepped" Hebi Sasuke likewise blitzes the shit out of "Unprepped" base Naruto with a Chidori blade. So yeah. I never prescribed to the "Pain-Arc SM Naruto > Hebi Sasuke" nonsense.​



1- Wind > lightning. FRS > Kirin
2- Who said Preta can't absorb it? 
- Do you mean based damaged Naruto who can't walk straight? Sure.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Makes ya' wonder why this didn't happen against Itachi.
> 
> Instead of dropping a lightning bolt on Itachi's head, he went in there and ran out of chakra getting past Itachi's illusions & Mangekyou (which likely wouldn't have even happened without Itachi's help in the first place).
> 
> Sauce is probably too full of himself to start with Kirin, even if he's given preparation time.



Probably more like plot for the sake of cool ninja fights.

He could've/should've done that to the Kage Summit too.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- Wind > lightning. FRS > Kirin
> *You mean futon > raiton*



It's natural lightning.



Hussain said:


> 2- Who said Preta can't absorb it?



It's natural lightning.



Turrin said:


> Though for the sake of logic and reason, I am forced to point out that if the definition of fully prepped is X character can start with whatever Jutsu they want on the field, than SM-Naruto starts with 3 KB and Multi-FRS in hand.



So Naruto starting in Sage Mode with clones set up gathering natural energy and an army of giant toads isn't enough of an advantage to let him compete with Hebi Sasuke with one jutsu prepped. 

Hebi Sasuke can obviously dodge FRS, by the way. Naruto can't do the same to Kirin, and Kirin easily covers enough of an area for Naruto and his clones to be wiped out.​


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If she has 2.5 Years worth and uses Byakugo for a few minutes, probably not High diff.



Do you think Itachi would be exhausted after using Susano'o for a few minutes if he hadn't just spammed a bunch of other Mangekyou techniques?

Actually, forget that. What difficulty does Edo Itachi have against Orochimaru (assume manga knowledge)?


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's natural lightning.
> 
> 
> 
> It's natural lightning.



And?
Does not SM use that same natural power?


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Probably more like plot for the sake of cool ninja fights.
> 
> He could've/should've done that to the Kage Summit too.



Well duh, I know it's plot.

I want your rationalization though. That's what we do here.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And?



Futon > Raiton. One chakra affinity trumps the other.

Natural lightning, however, is not a raiton. It has no raiton chakra.



Rocky said:


> Well duh, I know it's plot.
> 
> I want your rationalization though. That's what we do here.



Oh. Gotcha! ... 

Sasuke wanted the satisfaction of seeing Itachi fearfully look skyward.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Futon > Raiton.
> 
> Natural lightning is not a raiton.



then what is it? 
Did not Kakashi cut a natural lightning with his Raikiri?


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Do you think Itachi would be exhausted after using Susano'o for a few minutes if he hadn't just spammed a bunch of other Mangekyou techniques?


I think Itachi would have used a considerable amount of chakra, not all or even half, but a considerable amount. I also think both his eyes would be at least as fucked up as they were after his right eye's Amaterasu usage against Sasuke and he'd have strained his body enough to be coughing blood. So to answer your question, I think he'd be WAY Fucking WAY more strained than 2.5 Year Byakugo Storage Tsunade would be using Byakugo for a few minutes.



> Actually, forget that. What difficulty does Edo Itachi have against Orochimaru (assume manga knowledge)?


No I won't forget it because my entire point was Handicapped-Itachi had high-diff with Handicapped-Orochimaru. Putting Edo-Itachi against handicapped-Orochimaru defeats the point, as it's eliminating all of Itachi's handicaps and buffing him further, while leaving all of Orochimaru's, thus literally having nothing to do with what i'm talking about.

But to get at the root of your question, if Susano'o strained Itachi less, I would consider the fight less difficult. However if Itachi was healthier, I must assume the same is true for Orochimaru, and therefore I believe the fight would necessitate Itachi using Susano'o longer than against handicapped Orochimaru, thus ending up with relatively similar strain.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> then what is it?



Normal lightning, albeit an ass-ton of it.



Hussain said:


> Did not Kakashi cut a natural lightning with his Raikiri?



So the legend goes. Too bad Naruto doesn't know Raikiri.


----------



## Trojan (May 24, 2015)

he knows a far stronger jutsu. 
you're just making excuses.


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

Turrin, I'm just trying to understand what you're basing difficulty off of. Is it amount of chakra used up, physical injuries?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Everytime Tsunade uses Byakugo: Creation Rebirth, it's extreme difficulty?
> 
> Trump Card? √
> 
> ...



Well, yeah.  The only people she _needs_ creation rebirth on are high high tiers, because they're the only ones who are going to be scoring lethal blows on her.  Particularly if she's amped with non-life shortening Byako stat boosts.  Similar to Orochimaru trolling through a list of high tiers with White Snake Form nuero-toxins and regen, it's the worst way for them to win, and they both prefer not to have to use it.  

Bringing that back to the Madara fight, she's "betting her life," because the reckless SS abuse method is her last resort.  Prior to that, she wanted to fight without getting stabbed up and shortening her life.  Though Byako itself is nice as a safeguard, gives a good boost, doesn't shorten your life, and isn't indicative of a high diff fight, because even when activated, it only seems to take chakra for SS if you're injured.  For a medic, it's better safe than sorry.


----------



## Rocky (May 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well, yeah.  The only people she _needs_ creation rebirth on are high high tiers, because they're the only ones who are going to be scoring lethal blows on her.



Tell that to the BD. Every, and I mean _every_ Tsunade thread is centered around whether or not her opponent can somehow overcome Byakugo. Actually, the main counterargument to the argument _"she won't use Byakugo right away"_ usually involves the statement she made when fighting Madara. Something about a medic "not being allowed to fight without it."

Looking back at it, I see a slew of problems with that myself. You're probably right, but I find it funny that everyone thinks Tsunade needs high difficulty (as it's being defined in this thread) to fight anyone that's on the Kage level.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Makes ya' wonder why this didn't happen against Itachi.
> 
> Instead of dropping a lightning bolt on Itachi's head, he went in there and ran out of chakra getting past Itachi's illusions & Mangekyou (which likely wouldn't have even happened without Itachi's help in the first place).
> 
> Sauce is probably too full of himself to start with Kirin, even if he's given preparation time.



Itachi'd just as easily tank it with Susano'O. And from a narrative stand point, you can't expect the author to blow off the climax at the beginning of the battle.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Turrin your definition of difficulty is slightly wrong. using ur best technique to 1 panel someone doesn't automatically mean high diff. 

depending on the technique. for example using gates which damages gai would be mid diff at the least even if he panels a person 

however A using max speed to kill a guy with a punch could be neg diff as max speed has no effect on him 

using susanoo for example for 10 mins would be extreme diff for itachi. however for a few seconds should be low diff. I don't see why a few seconds of susanoo automatically makes it high diff. when 10 seconds of susanoo is of no consequence to itachi

@strat SM Naruto shit stomps hebi sasuke to the ground. this kirin you assume he can easily set up. note SM Naruto blitz asura while 5 other paths were watching
hebi gets his shit kicked in very simply

not even a debateable match when sasuke only way to be slightly dangerous is kirin. sadly saske is more likely to engage in cqc and get instantly murdered by frog katas. Naruto low diffs that battle


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Turrin, I'm just trying to understand what you're basing difficulty off of. Is it amount of chakra used up, physical injuries?


It's what technique were utilized and amount of effort exerted. With amount of effort exerted being defined by the sum total of the injuries, stamina drain, and other negative effects the person may incur to win. I do not think however that time someone defeats someone else in matters. When someone brings out their triumph card and clashes it again the other person triumph it's expect that the match will usually end quickly with one triumph card simply being better.


----------



## Kai (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The Jutsu Pain had a fair amount of difficult with Jiraiya, I agree. Nagato on the other hand had Low-Difficulty with Jiraiya.


The only criterion that fits Nagato having low difficulty with Jiraiya is the fact that Nagato comes off with no injuries. That's not my sole determinant on what makes a fight difficult. 

I'm sure Nagato, who spoke through Pain, wasn't secretly thinking "Pain had trouble, but me? Nah"






			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> How exactly do you determine difficulty Kai? If effort exerted does not factor into your calculations.


Effort exerted is precisely one way I determine difficulty. It is you who doesn't factor in effort exerted when you make claims like Pain had difficulty, but Nagato had no difficulty.

Are you saying Nagato doesn't exert effort when controlling his paths in combat? Because he controls every one of their actions, what they say, shares what they all see, and controls how much chakra they receive.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Sorry, but I can't take this point seriously when out of the other side of your mouth your simultaneously arguing Itachi using a Jutsu that does this to him doesn't constitute even high diff:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Here's why your comparison falls flat on its face.

*Itachi never showed any of those signs from when he started engaging Orochimaru to when he defeats Orochimaru.* You want to show examples of Itachi doubling over from using Susanoo when the fact of the matter is *Itachi took minimal consequences in defeating Orochimaru.* That's canon. Itachi doubling over and on his knees *while fighting Orochimaru* is nothing but your own produced fanon. 

Nagato, however, outright states that he can't go easy on the fox and shortens his life span to capture it. We see the process of Nagato capturing the fox, and it was an intense struggle with Konan on the side being worried for Nagato's health. Itachi, however, showed none of what you display when he disposed of Orochimaru. 

Selective reading at its finest.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Correction: Rinnegan in general could not bring out it's full powers in fake version. Madara could use Rinnegan better than Nagato in some regards and to a lesser extent in other regards. However nothing and I repeat nothing says Nagato's other Rinnegan techniques weren't also depowered by fake-Rinnegan. So your just assuming that.
> 
> What I'm saying is regardless of whether his other Jutsu were depowered or not, his Rinnegan powers were weaker because he couldn't summon GM and that's a fact.


Name one thing from the Rinnegan's power that Madara could use to a lesser extent than Nagato? Madara is the original wielder of the eye, and furthermore it's entirely possible certain powers don't mix well with the nature of being an Edo Tensei.

Summoning GM as one stated distinction doesn't apply to other powers by Nagato like ST, Animal Path, CT, etc. Even all of those powers were stated to be on another level compared to Pain's. Nothing was de-powered on Nagato's front.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> What else did Madara due with Rinnegan in-front of the Bijuu?


A better question would be what did Nagato display that suggests his Rinnegan's power was inferior by virtue of *being Edo Tensei?*

As we know, his Rinnegan's is already inferior by being a secondary wielder.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Possibly loosing under widely different conditions literally has nothing to do with how much difficulty someone had in that actual fight. They are inherently two separate situations.


Except now you're speaking out of context. Under neutral conditions, that may be the case.

In this manga, any statement of "possibly losing" to another is directly correlated to the difficulty the characters have fighting each other.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Just using Final Form Susano'o makes it high-diff. Why, because it's Itachi's strongest Technique _and _ it taxes him heavily both in the short term through consuming a massive amount of chakra, and in the long term by shaving his life away and blinding him. Anyone that goes that far to defeat someone is at-least having high-diff. Pretty much for the same reason that your saying Nagato had Extreme-diff with KN6-8.


You can keep saying Susanoo does all this shit to the user, which it certainly does, but we're blatantly shown where Itachi defeats Orochimaru with minimal consequences.

Itachi doesn't suffer from Susanoo's consequences to a great extent when defeating Orochimaru. That's not high difficulty at all.




			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Again It's like you read a totally different story:


And what the hell is that supposed to be read as? Was there a cliffhanger before their clash? Did they power up and attack simultaneously? Was there emotional struggle and intensity between them?

No to any and all of those? *You have a one sided fight.*



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Your argument for is basically nonsense because it's based entirely on time. Itachi defeated Orochimaru quickly so nothing else matters. The technique he used, how much it exhausts him doesn't matter, nothing else matters. Which basically amounts to the argument that if Gai went 8th-Gate and use Night-Guy defeating somoene in the milisecond it took him to land that attack, that Gai wouldn't have had even high diff with that individual, despite the fact that he'd have died to use Night-Gai. Which makes no fucking sense. I'm sorry it just doesn't.


Time does matter because the longer Itachi stays in Susanoo, the more or greater internal pain he receives.

Itachi sealed Orochimaru immediately and suffered little to no backlash in doing so.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Only point I agree on is when 2 people best jutsu clash the fight should end fairly quickly 

however by all accounts itachi low diff'd orochimaru because orochimaru had no idea he could be sealed. if he knew he wont have let the sword stab him while laughing it off. 

so yes no knowledge of totsuka orochimaru got low diff'd 

using susanoo for fractions of seconds is of no consequence to itachi.


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## Bloo (May 24, 2015)

Are people actually arguing Itachi had difficulty against Orochimaru when the latter was one-paneled by the former _twice_? Orochimaru is echelons beneath Itachi in terms of portrayal and ability. Itachi's only threat in this battle is Jiraiya and even then it's not much of one. Itachi's Totsuka alone is a large enough of an argument to favor Itachi's victory than his loss here. Let alone his superior skill and tactical thinking.

Also, I can't help but laugh at the few comments in here that Itachi is irrelevant to the manga now when the post-manga gaiden's conflict is centered around Itachi.  Itachi is probably one of the most relevant characters in this series.



Icegaze said:


> Only point I agree on is when 2 people best jutsu clash the fight should end fairly quickly
> 
> however by all accounts itachi low diff'd orochimaru because orochimaru had no idea he could be sealed. *if he knew he wont have let the sword stab him while laughing it off. *
> 
> ...


Itachi stabbed Orochimaru in the middle of Orochimaru's sentence and his quote of "?!?" greatly builds the case that Orochimaru was hit before realizing it. Orochimaru wasn't only being careless, he was simply too slow to recognize the attack, let alone dodge it.

If you are looking for a long held-out debate with me, it's not happening. I'll just watch the responses.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Are people actually arguing Itachi had difficulty against Orochimaru when the latter was one-paneled by the former _twice_?



Basically 

How can Itachi be Jiraiya's equal when he is proven to be alot stronger than Orochimaru ? Makes no sense. So the only way to justify that is by making it look like Orochimaru is Itachi's equal  

Anti-Itachi front is reaally that desperate.


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Are people actually arguing Itachi had difficulty against Orochimaru when the latter was one-paneled by the former _twice_? Orochimaru is echelons beneath Itachi in terms of portrayal and ability. Itachi's only threat in this battle is Jiraiya and even then it's not much of one. Itachi's Totsuka alone is a large enough of an argument to favor Itachi's victory than his loss here. Let alone his superior skill and tactical thinking.
> 
> Also, I can't help but laugh at the few comments in here that Itachi is irrelevant to the manga now when the post-manga gaiden's conflict is centered around Itachi.  Itachi is probably one of the most relevant characters in this series.
> 
> ...



a tad presumptuous and pompous of little man to come here and assume I am looking for a debate with you

orochimaru got hit and said attacks at that level mean nothing to him which is fact. yes he might not have had the speed to react but then again why dodge a sword that would have otherwise been irrelevant if it couldn't seal him which it did 

that's all. 

its like assuming kn4 was too fast which is what split him in half. he had no need to dodge it so he didn't 

or assume kabuto was too fast for orochimaru which is how orochimaru got bloodied on the floor. kabuto stopped him mid sentence as well 

no need to dodge, so he did not


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## Bloo (May 24, 2015)

^Sorry, that last comment wasn't meant to be directed towards you but was to anyone.


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## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> The only criterion that fits Nagato having low difficulty with Jiraiya is the fact that Nagato comes off with no injuries. That's not my sole determinant on what makes a fight difficult.


What criteria fits Nagato having more than low difficulty? He used up a small fraction of his chakra, wasn't injured, didn't use any of his triumph cards, and his Jutsu Pain Rikudo was easily restored. 



> I'm sure Nagato, who spoke through Pain, wasn't secretly thinking "Pain had trouble, but me? Nah"


But that's literally what he said 

Nagato says Jiraiya under more beneficial circumstances could beat Pain-Rikudo
Obito says Jiriaya gave Pain Rikudo some trouble. 

Pain Rikudo = just one of Nagato's Jutsu. 



> Effort exerted is precisely one way I determine difficulty. It is you who doesn't factor in effort exerted when you make claims like Pain had difficulty,


Again I ask what effort did Nagato exert. Moving around Pain Rikudo and having them use a few of their Jutsu doesn't tax Nagato hardly at all given his display in the Pain-Arc. He didn't use any triumphs and he wasn't damaged in anyway. 

Again your entire definition of effort seems to boil down to temporality, while ignoring everything else. Pan Rikudo didn't quickly defeat Jiriaya so Nagato had more than Low-Diff. Itachi's Susano'o quickly defeated Orochimaru, so he had Low-Diff. Fuck how much each performance took out of them, injury wise, chakra wise, and Jutsu wise.




> but Nagato had no difficulty.


Straw-Man. I said Nagato had Low [High] Diff, not No Diff.



> tachi never showed any of those signs from when he started engaging Orochimaru to when he defeats Orochimaru. You want to show examples of Itachi doubling over from using Susanoo when the fact of the matter is Itachi took minimal consequences in defeating Orochimaru. That's canon. Itachi doubling over and on his knees while fighting Orochimaru is nothing but your own produced fanon.


What the fuck is this shit Kai. Literally just activating Susano'o made Itachi's eye go white and him cough blood, which shows how much the Jutsu takes out of him. He used that Jutsu against Orochimaru and in-fact used an even higher form. So saying his usage of Susano'o against Orochimaru had minimal consequence is a fairy fucking tale. Moving on from that Itachi doubling over and all that stuff happened right after he finished sealing Orochimaru, and was a direct result of his Susano'o usage against Orochimaru further degrading him. In the same way we see Nagato cough blood _*after*_ he's done using CT to contain KN6. In both cases Kishi is drawing these adverse effects to show how much each instance took out of these fighters. 

You however are applying double standard and saying Itachi had Mid or worse Low-diff, despite more fatigued than Nagato, while saying Nagato had extreme diff. It's absolutely an unfair way to discuss anything and it's the type of bias I can't take seriously.



> Nagato, however, outright states that he can't go easy on the fox and shortens his life span to capture it. We see the process of Nagato capturing the fox, and it was an intense struggle with Konan on the side being worried for Nagato's health. Itachi, however, showed none of what you display when he disposed of Orochimaru.


The fact of the matter is it's exactly the same. Nagato uses one of his triumph cards to contain KN6 at the expense shortening his life-span. Itachi uses one of his triumph cards to seal Orochimaru at the expense of shortening his life span. As far as struggling while using the Jutsu to capture KN6 and Orochimaru respectively goes, all the strain we see from Nagato is his nose bleeding:
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.

And yes we do see and equilvent or greater amount strain from Itachi while he's battling Yamata no Orochi. Pulling Susano'o out causes his left eye to go gray and for him to cough up blood:
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.

Than Evolving Susano'o to it's final form causes his right eye to bleed and him panting:
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.

I mean fuck this is his face during the seal process:


The blood from his eye has dripped even further down his face and he's still sweating profusely with a look of extreme fatigue on his face.
-----

Than after Pain contains KN6 in CT he coughs up blood and shows a great degree of physical strain:
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.

Which is exactly the same as Itachi who immediately after finishing sealing Orochimaru has a heart attack:
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.
Deidara was looking at him, and he was gone.

Again the situation is not different. You are simply applying a double standard, once you admit that to yourself, than we can actual hold a good conversation about this.



> Name one thing from the Rinnegan's power that Madara could use to a lesser extent than Nagato? Madara is the original wielder of the eye, and furthermore it's entirely possible certain powers don't mix well with the nature of being an Edo Tensei.


Being able to use multiple 6 Path powers at once. Done. 



> Summoning GM as one stated distinction doesn't apply to other powers by Nagato like ST, Animal Path, CT, etc.


And where was that stated pray tell.



> Even all of those powers were stated to be on another level compared to Pain's. Nothing was de-powered on Nagato's front.


Being on another "level" to Pain doesn't mean they are at full-power.



> A better question would be what did Nagato display that suggests his Rinnegan's power was inferior by virtue of being Edo Tensei?


We never saw Living Nagato fight so your asking an impossible question and you know it. The bottom line is we don't know if his other powers were handicapped or not, as we lack the necessary data or at least I haven't seen any data that confirms it one way or another. That's all i'm saying. But you seem to be turning this into me saying his other powers were certainly better.



> As we know, his Rinnegan's is already inferior by being a secondary wielder.


His Rinnegan isn't inferior. His chakra fueling the Rinnegan is inferior and his skill in certain areas are inferior to Madara.



> Except now you're speaking out of context. Under neutral conditions, that may be the case.
> 
> In this manga, any statement of "possibly losing" to another is directly correlated to the difficulty the characters have fighting each other.


Lol Kai this is ridiculous. Nagato says Pain in a totally different scenario he could have lost. That doesn't mean shit to the actual scenario that played out.

It's like after me destroying my friend in chess, saying well if we played the match over again and he knew all of my strategies before I used them, he could have perhaps won. I'm not saying I had a huge amount of difficulty in the first match, i'm saying if things were different and my friend was heavily advantage I could have had difficulty. 



> You can keep saying Susanoo does all this shit to the user, which it certainly does, but we're blatantly shown where Itachi defeats Orochimaru with minimal consequences.


I repeat this shit happens right after finishing sealing Orochimaru. I repeat read the dam manga Kai, because this is infuriatingly ridiculous:





> And what the hell is that supposed to be read as? Was there a cliffhanger before their clash? Did they power up and attack simultaneously? Was there emotional struggle and intensity between them?


It's suppose to be read as both Itachi and Orochimaru using their strongest techniques against each other in one final clash where Orochimaru is desperately trying to get hold of Sasuke's body while Itachi is desperately trying to protect him to the point of using a Jutsu that was literally killing him.



> No to any and all of those? You have a one sided fight.


Cool, and if Gai went 8th-Gate against most ninja it would be a one-sided fight, does that mean despite using 8th-Gate he had Low-Diff with the enemy? 



> Time does matter because the longer Itachi stays in Susanoo, the more or greater internal pain he receives.
> 
> Itachi sealed Orochimaru immediately and suffered little to no backlash in doing so.


I'm begging you to read the fucking manga before you participate in these discussions.



Bloo said:


> Are people actually arguing Itachi had difficulty against Orochimaru when the latter was one-paneled by the former _twice_? Orochimaru is echelons beneath Itachi in terms of portrayal and ability. Itachi's only threat in this battle is Jiraiya and even then it's not much of one. Itachi's Totsuka alone is a large enough of an argument to favor Itachi's victory than his loss here. Let alone his superior skill and tactical thinking.


Cool so when Gai goes 8th-Gate and panels someone with Night-Guy, that's a no diff win for him, Bloo, 



> Also, I can't help but laugh at the few comments in here that Itachi is irrelevant to the manga now when the post-manga gaiden's conflict is centered around Itachi.  Itachi is probably one of the most relevant characters in this series.


Were talking about irrelevant strength wise.


----------



## Sadgoob (May 24, 2015)

Turrin, do you believe a completely fresh Itachi without sickness using Susano'o for the amount of time used against Orochimaru would have any of those effects?

Susano'o is a pay-as-you-go and doesn't require a lump-sum like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Chibaku Tensei. If used for a short duration of time, it's remarkably affordable.​


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## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Turrin, do you believe a completely fresh Itachi without sickness using Susano'o for the amount of time used against Orochimaru would have any of those effects?
> 
> Susano'o is a pay-as-you-go and doesn't require a lump-sum like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Chibaku Tensei. If used for a short duration of time, it's remarkably affordable.​



gotta agree here. cant fault it

pay as you go but on orange though. not Vodafone


----------



## StickaStick (May 24, 2015)

Neither of Oro's encounters with Itachi are a fair reflection of how a one-on-one match would go with both w/ full knowledge and with a killer intent. 

With that said, while Oro probably isn't getting one-paneled he's still going to lose with no to low difficulty. To look at how Itachi dispatched Oro in the Sasuke fight and suggest that was to be taken as anything other than the easiest of efforts on Itachi's part in being intellectually dishonest with one's self, plain and simple.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I repeat this shit happens right after finishing sealing Orochimaru. I repeat read the dam manga Kai, because this is infuriatingly ridiculous:


#rekt


"*Disease* was eating away at him from the inside."




Apparently Itachi's illness gave him a high dif fight.

Also literally lol'd @ how he cropped that image so the text about the illness wouldn't be visible.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

wont lie grimm I laughed at the crop as well. was hilarious


----------



## Kai (May 24, 2015)

You're correct Grimm, except that Turrin used the image from the actual fight, not during Tobi's explanation.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

in response to Turrin fan fic and why he never replies me. exhausted he keeps being wrong no doubt

_meet him there_

sasuke says: So this is what happens when I use it for long periods of time 



too easy to win an argument with you. try harder


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Kai said:


> You're correct Grimm, except that Turrin used the image from the actual fight, not during Tobi's explanation.



Oh, then it is not as hilarious as I thought it was. But still very slick on his part.


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> #rekt
> 
> 
> "*Disease* was eating away at him from the inside."
> ...



And I was talking about handicapped itachi the whole time so what's your point exactly



Strategoob said:


> Turrin, do you believe a completely fresh Itachi without sickness using Susano'o for the amount of time used against Orochimaru would have any of those effects?
> 
> Susano'o is a pay-as-you-go and doesn't require a lump-sum like Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, or Chibaku Tensei. If used for a short duration of time, it's remarkably affordable.​


I repeat I was talking about Sick-Itachi.


----------



## Bloo (May 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Cool so when Gai goes 8th-Gate and panels someone with Night-Guy, that's a no diff win for him, Bloo,
> 
> 
> Were talking about irrelevant strength wise.


I'm glad to see you compare Night-Guy to basic sharingan genjutsu (which also one-paneled Orochimaru).


----------



## Empathy (May 24, 2015)

Losing a hand constitutes a one-panel defeat now?


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 24, 2015)

Sick Itachi can certainly sustain V4 Susano'o long enough to defeat Oro's Hydra without suffering from the notable effects of Susano'o if fresh considering he managed to maintain V4 Susano'o while being Blind and literally on his deathbed.

 Though honestly, Itachi's statement towards Orochimaru seemed to mock what Orochimaru was capable of, so I would certainly consider it a low-diff fight for Itachi. It's been established multiple times that Itachi simply outclasses Orochimaru.

 @Empathy

 It does. He can't make seals, he's mostly paralyzed which means Kunai to the head GG.


----------



## Turrin (May 24, 2015)

Bloo said:


> I'm glad to see you compare Night-Guy to basic sharingan genjutsu (which also one-paneled Orochimaru).


I'm glad your talking totally off topic. Considering the entire discussion was about Itachi using Susano'o to defeat Orochimaru in the Hebi-Sasuke fight.

Also explain to me how Orochimaru is defeated by loosing a hand. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Sick Itachi can certainly sustain V4 Susano'o long enough to defeat Oro's Hydra without suffering from the notable effects of Susano'o if fresh considering he managed to maintain V4 Susano'o


If Itachi was in better condition he could have certainly used V4-Susano'o with less dramatic effects, but saying no ill effects at all is an exaggeration. We saw when Itachi used Amaterasu for a smaller period of time what that did to him, his eye grayed out and he coughed up blood. So while I don't think he would have had a heart attack and basically died shortly after his usage in the Hebi-Sasuke fight, his vision would have been fucked up and he'd be coughing blood still. 

As far as Itachi being on his death bed is concerned, Orochimru was also on his death bed due to the effects of body failure and shiki-fuujin:


Kabuto, "The Medicine" "Presently can't be relied on... "Tomorrow...."Or even as soon as today" "the transmigration ritual" "will have to be performed"

So I don't really accept that as an excuse for Itachi. Both were significantly handicapped.



> Though honestly, Itachi's statement towards Orochimaru seemed to mock what Orochimaru was capable of, so I would certainly consider it a low-diff fight for Itachi. It's been established multiple times that Itachi simply outclasses Orochimaru.


Dude if pulling out ones Triumph-card that shaves ones life away, preeminently damages his eye-sight, and costs a large portion of chakra, is Low-Diff, than what is Mid-Diff, High-Diff, and Extreme-Diff? Does Itachi literally need to be given the Reek treatment and have his dick chopped off to just be pushed to Mid/high-diff lol.



> It does. He can't make seals, he's mostly paralyzed which means Kunai to the head GG.


He wasn't paralyzed after Itachi sliced his hand off. That pain freed him. Hence him being able to grab his other arm easily. Plus since when would Orochimaru die from a Kunai to the head. He has KN1 claw to the face and laughed it off. He was torn in half and laughed it off, and so on.


----------



## Empathy (May 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> @Empathy
> 
> It does. He can't make seals, he's mostly paralyzed which means Kunai to the head GG.



Itachi only cut his hand to give him a negligible injury before Orochimaru could break it (he was forming the seal to release himself). The paralysis ends as soon as the physical sensation of pain is felt (in this case, arm cutting). Most of the jutsu we saw Orochimaru use in the manga don't require seals, as he lost that ability after Hiruzen's _Shiki Fujin_ and only regained it toward the end of the manga. Orochimaru can very easily reattach his hand or grow a new one. Kunai to the head wouldn't do anything to Orochimaru. He was cut to pieces (including being decapitated) and just put himself back together. There's strong evidence their fight continued beyond hand cut.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 25, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Itachi only cut his hand to give him a negligible injury before Orochimaru could break it (he was forming the seal to release himself). The paralysis ends as soon as the physical sensation of pain is felt (in this case, arm cutting).



 Sure, though the fatigue was clearly evident after his hand was cut considering the he had signs of exhaustion and was also clutching his arm which is a laughable injury for Orochimaru considering he tanked a Totsuka through the heart.



> Most of the jutsu we saw Orochimaru use in the manga don't require seals, as he lost that ability after Hiruzen's _Shiki Fujin_ and only regained it toward the end of the manga.



 That actually may be a fair point for Young Orochimaru, though considering his feats in CQC, his best bet is honestly Hydra which was 1 Paneled.



> Orochimaru can very easily reattach his hand or grow a new one. Kunai to the head wouldn't do anything to Orochimaru. He was cut to pieces (including being decapitated) and just put himself back together. There's strong evidence their fight continued beyond hand cut.



 Then why didn't he? He was clutching his arm as if he felt the pain sensation and he had noticeable signs of exhaustion. If he could easily regenerate and recover from Itachi's attacks, then why would he be clutching his arm? That's a laughable injury for Orochimaru unless he was severely fatigued.


----------



## Empathy (May 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Sure, though the fatigue was clearly evident after his hand was cut considering the he had signs of exhaustion and was also clutching his arm which is a laughable injury for Orochimaru considering he tanked a Totsuka through the heart.
> 
> That actually may be a fair point for Young Orochimaru, though considering his feats in CQC, his best bet is honestly Hydra which was 1 Paneled.
> 
> Then why didn't he? He was clutching his arm as if he felt the pain sensation and he had noticeable signs of exhaustion. If he could easily regenerate and recover from Itachi's attacks, then why would he be clutching his arm? That's a laughable injury for Orochimaru unless he was severely fatigued.



Fatigue had nothing to do with it. The sweat and arm clutching were a result of fear/captivation from the genjutsu and Itachi giving him a talking to. The sentiment stayed with Orochimaru enough that he actually kept the severed arm. Deidara was sweating after Itachi beat him too, but I doubt that _C1_ bomb actually took a lot out of him. Of course losing a hand is nothing to Orochimaru and who's to say Orochimaru didn't regenerate afterward (he obviously did at some point, or he'd be walking around with a hook for a hand or something)? The flashback ended at that point and they were implications that it continued beyond then (most people think the hand cut made Orochimaru run away with his tail between his legs, but I think he did that later on). I consider it similar to the Minato versus A flashback, where no conclusion was directly shown, but enough was shown to clearly indicate who had the upper-hand.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2015)

I would wear a set with Orochimaru sporting a hook for a hand.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2015)

^ The Oro vs Itachi Flashback is meant to be taken as symbolic of Itachi being a step ahead of Orochimaru. Orochimaru goes to ambush Itachi, Itachi paralyzes, Orochimaru goes to use Kai, and Itachi cuts off his hand before he can. And to paralell Sasuke's encounter with Orochimaru. It is not however meant to be read literally in the sense that Orochimaru was literally defeated by having his hand cut off. Just like Orochimaru is not literally defeated when Sasuke uses binding Genjutsu on him during Fuushi-Tensei, which is paralleled to the scene with Orochimaru and Itachi back then and directly compared to said encounter by Orochimaru, but rather Orochimaru is defeated several moves later when Sasuke than turns the dimension against him.

Like Empathy said it's the same thing with the Minato vs Ei battle. The battle was symbolic of Minato always being a step ahead of Ei. Ei attacks him and he avoids it. Ei tries to predict where he's going to appear by looking at the Kunai, and he appears near a mark. The fight however should not be read literally, where literally Ei was going to be defeated by a mere Kunai slash.

In both cases common sense tells us Orochimaru and Ei would have laughed off such minor attacks, and in both instances the battle would need to have drug on longer for a real conclusion to be met. In-fact the battle probably did drag on longer and that's how Orochimaru and Itachi know so much about each others Jutsu in the current time-line.


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## Sadgoob (May 25, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Itachi only cut his hand to give him a negligible injury before Orochimaru could break it (he was forming the seal to release himself). The paralysis ends as soon as the physical sensation of pain is felt (in this case, arm cutting).



This is true for Kurenai's tree-trap genjutsu, but not necessarily for genjutsu already filled with pain sensations like Kasegui.​


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## Empathy (May 25, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I would wear a set with Orochimaru sporting a hook for a hand.



It would better reflect his cartoon villainy. 



Turrin said:


> Like Empathy said it's the same thing with the Minato vs Ei battle. The battle was symbolic of Minato always being a step ahead of Ei. Ei attacks him and he avoids it. Ei tries to predict where he's going to appear by looking at the Kunai, and he appears near a mark. The fight however should not be read literally, where literally Ei was going to be defeated by a mere Kunai slash.
> 
> In both cases common sense tells us Orochimaru and Ei would have laughed off such minor attacks, and in both instances the battle would need to have drug on longer for a real conclusion to be met. In-fact the battle probably did drag on longer and that's how Orochimaru and Itachi know so much about each others Jutsu in the current time-line.



What I got from this was Itachi = Minato.



Strategoob said:


> This is not true for all genjutsu, particularly those that are already filled with pain sensations.​



What's this based on? Kurenai's _Magen: Jubaku Satsu_ was just as much an Itachi-level illusion when cast by him, as _Mugen Onsa_ was a _Sennin Modo_-level illusion when cast by Kabuto, unless I'm mistaken on jutsu mechanics. I'd imagine that flesh melting from the bone feels a lot worse than finger break. I think Orochimaru could still break himself out, anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And I was talking about handicapped itachi the whole time so what's your point exactly



You attributed that to usage of Susano'O. You may want to rephrase your argument, just saying.




Empathy said:


> Itachi only cut his hand to give him a negligible injury before Orochimaru could break it (he was forming the seal to release himself). The paralysis ends as soon as the physical sensation of pain is felt (in this case, arm cutting). Most of the jutsu we saw Orochimaru use in the manga don't require seals, as he lost that ability after Hiruzen's _Shiki Fujin_ and only regained it toward the end of the manga. Orochimaru can very easily reattach his hand or grow a new one. Kunai to the head wouldn't do anything to Orochimaru. He was cut to pieces (including being decapitated) and just put himself back together. There's strong evidence their fight continued beyond hand cut.



Actually Oro can't attach or regrow hands. We've seen him use oral rebirth after losing his arm against Naruto. And since oral rebirth is a kawarimi and needs an active chakra network to function, Orochimaru probably couldn't use it while he was paralyzed by Itachi. Also there is no point in using kawarimi after the damage is done.
There is also the fact that Itachi could have just as easily gone for his head. Probably Orochimaru knew that too. 



Turrin said:


> As far as Itachi being on his death bed is concerned, Orochimru was also on his death bed due to the effects of body failure and shiki-fuujin:
> 
> 
> Kabuto, "The Medicine" "Presently can't be relied on... "Tomorrow...."Or even as soon as today" "the transmigration ritual" "will have to be performed"
> ...



Orochimaru wasn't in that condition when he emerged from Sasuke though. Where as Itachi was literally moments away from death.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Though i have been ignored completely in this thread for no apparent reason i would like to point out a few things

1) both were sick and basically in the same end of their rope condition 

2) both used their top level technique and itachi trolled

3) itachi already knew of yamata in the past and orochimaru knew of itachi susanoo. (notice none were surprised at the appearance of each other technique. itachi even introduces orochimaru jutsu)
Its possible that in the past orochimaru had seen itachi fight as well. I doubt orochimaru made the assessment that itachi is too strong based on 1 encounter were he lost his hand

4) they were team mates. so both knew of each other techniques to an extent 

5) if orochimaru were healthy and itachi was the result would have been the same.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You attributed that to usage of Susano'O. You may want to rephrase your argument, just saying.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Didn't Oro put his halves back together with snakes after KNTAILS clawed him in half?


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## Turrin (May 25, 2015)

Empathy said:


> What I got from this was Itachi = Minato.
> .


They are close, though I do think Minato is slightly better. However you should not be getting that from parallels, otherwise Nawaki = Naruto.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

On topic base snake kabuto got into SM against EMS sasuke and itachi

so why cant jiriaya in a 2 vs 1 scenario. when base snake kabuto is <<<<<jiriaya+orochimaru?

Both jiriaya and orochimaru have jutsu to avoid eye contact it seems they can just do that. get jiriaya into SM and from there his sound jutsu should troll

or are we forgetting what sound ninjutsu and genjutsu did to the uchiha in cannon?


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## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

there is no parallels in those fights. 

They were made to clearly indicates that
Itachi > Oro
Minato > A & B.  

the 3 of which admitted their inferiority.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You attributed that to usage of Susano'O. You may want to rephrase your argument, just saying.
> .


Handicapped Itachi's decline is attributed to him using Susano'o. Susano'o strained him more because of his condition. There's no need for me to rephrase. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Orochimaru wasn't in that condition when he emerged from Sasuke though. Where as Itachi was literally moments away from death.



Literally nothing changed about Orochimaru's condition. Just because he wasn't coughing blood in that moment, doesn't mean anything. He wasn't coughing blood when he went WSM against Hebi-Sasuke ether. However it's an understood fact that Orochimaru until he could completely take over a new body was knocking on death's door. 



> Actually Oro can't attach or regrow hands. We've seen him use oral rebirth after losing his arm against Naruto. And since oral rebirth is a kawarimi and needs an active chakra network to function, Orochimaru probably couldn't use it while he was paralyzed by Itachi. Also there is no point in using kawarimi after the damage is done.
> There is also the fact that Itachi could have just as easily gone for his head. Probably Orochimaru knew that too.


Orochimaru reattached his body with snakes multiple times in the manga.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Didn't Oro put his halves back together with snakes after KNTAILS clawed him in half?



I attribute it to his white snake form : 19 Which doesn't have limbs. 

So he can attach his torso, but any damage done to his heads or his limb should be mitigated by Oral rebirth.

edit :



Turrin said:


> Handicapped Itachi's decline is attributed to him using Susano'o. Susano'o strained him more because of his condition. There's no need for me to rephrase.


talk about denial

There is a manga page that literally says the disease was working on him, labeled on the exact panel you posted.
What more do you want ? 





> Literally nothing changed about Orochimaru's condition. Just because he wasn't coughing blood in that moment, doesn't mean anything. He wasn't coughing blood when he went WSM against Hebi-Sasuke ether. However it's an understood fact that Orochimaru until he could completely take over a new body was knocking on death's door.


The difference is he actually left the host which was the cause of his condition. So yeah, Orochimaru wasn't sick when he emerged from Sasuke.
Its the same when he emerged from Anko, he wasn't sick.



> [
> Orochimaru reattached his body with snakes multiple times in the manga.



Read above, I adressed  this.

edit  : 



Turrin said:


> They are close, though I do think Minato is slightly better. However you should not be getting that from parallels, otherwise Nawaki = Naruto.



Nawaki is a fodder who died long time ago, who has literally no siginficance over the plot.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

how would orochimaru leave the host? the body shown emerging out of 8 headed snake was the body he had previously taken over

orochimaru real body is basically the large snake. anything else is a body he has stolen. 

so orochimaru was still very much in need of a new body and dying


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## Elite Uchiha (May 25, 2015)

Even in Part I, Itachi believed he was unable to defeat Jiraiya. 

HM Jiraiya > Itachi > Orochimaru

The Duo win high (low) difficulty.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

> Nawaki is a fodder who died long time ago, who has literally no siginficance over the plot.



Minato = Naruto. Does that sound better? 

Kishi kept comparing them the entire manga, from the very first page, to the very last page. 


to


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato = Naruto. Does that sound better?
> 
> Kishi kept comparing them the entire manga, from the very first page, to the very last page.
> 
> ...



Yeah, Naruto was always likened to Minato, even before we learned that they were father and son.
From the moment 4th sacrificed his life to protect the village and sealed the fox inside Naruto, they had some kind of a bond. It was established in chapter 1.
In chapter 2, a similar bond was established between Itachi & Sasuke.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2015)

Yes, but that does not mean that they are as powerful as each other. That's what I think Turrin meant. Because Nawaki had some parallels with Narudo as well. 

Tho I have no clue from where he made them between itachi and Minato honestly, but whatever....


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Yes, but that does not mean that they are as powerful as each other. That's what I think Turrin meant. Because Nawaki had some parallels with Narudo as well.
> 
> Tho I have no clue from where he made them between itachi and Minato honestly, but whatever....


It doesn't mean they have to be as powerful as each other, but in Sasuke & Naruto's case they were more or less equal through out the whole manga and both Itachi & Minato fullfilled similar roles from their perspective.

Nawaki example doesn't even begin to work because Nawaki is a fodder who has no on panel time or plot significance. He is just a cocky kid who wants to become the hokage, big whoop dee doo.


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## Turrin (May 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> talk about denial
> 
> There is a manga page that literally says the disease was working on him, labeled on the exact panel you posted.
> What more do you want ?


Once again i'm talking about Handicapped Itachi. I.E. an Itachi who is effected by illness. So how exactly am I denying it? Unless your literally saying Itachi coughing up blood there was 100% due to his illness and had nothing to do with Susano'o. In which case that is nonsense, as Itachi was not coughing up blood at the very start of the battle or at random. He coughed up blood every time he pushed himself extensively through the usage of his higher end Jutsu. So yes he coughed up blood there due to illness, but it was due to Susano'o straining his body that brought those symptoms to the forefront.



> The difference is he actually left the host which was the cause of his condition. So yeah, Orochimaru wasn't sick when he emerged from Sasuke.
> Its the same when he emerged from Anko, he wasn't sick.


Orochimaru doesn't leave one body and enter another. His past bodies are always part of him, he simply goes into another body, taking his past bodies along for the ride. We clearly see that here:


This is also why Kabuto says the transmigration ritual itself has to be performed:

Kabuto, "The Medicine" "Presently can't be relied on... "Tomorrow...."Or even as soon as today" "the transmigration ritual" "will have to be performed"

Rather than saying, Orochimaru just needs to leave his old body.  Orochimaru needed to perform the ritual and take over a new host to avoid death, and that's a fact, 



> Read above, I adressed this.


No you said it was Oral-Rebirth, but in the instances I'm citing Orochimaru did not use Oral Rebirth.



> Nawaki is a fodder who died long time ago, who has literally no siginficance over the plot.


Cool, and that only furthers my point, that fan-drawn parallels are a stupid way to evaluate character strength. Itachi is around Minato's level because he proved his metal through feats, hype, etc... not because some fan's like herp da derp author using same literary device in 2 scenes therefore those characters must be equal. But if you wish to degrage the argument for Itachi being around Minato's "level" to the point of, resting it's laurels on this dumb concept, be my guest.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Once again i'm talking about Handicapped Itachi. I.E. an Itachi who is effected by illness. So how exactly am I denying it? Unless your literally saying Itachi coughing up blood there was 100% due to his illness and had nothing to do with Susano'o. In which case that is nonsense, as Itachi was not coughing up blood at the very start of the battle or at random. He coughed up blood every time he pushed himself extensively through the usage of his higher end Jutsu. So yes he coughed up blood there due to illness, but it was due to Susano'o straining his body that brought those symptoms to the forefront.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru doesn't leave one body and enter another. His past bodies are always part of him, he simply goes into another body, taking his past bodies along for the ride. We clearly see that here:
> ...



glad to know someone else can point out that orochimaru was sick

however itachi was coughing up blood due to extended use. as i posted on the page before, sasuke says extended use is what hurts the body. 

sadly itachi only needs a few seconds to dispatch an orochimaru who has no knowledge of totsuka


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Once again i'm talking about Handicapped Itachi. I.E. an Itachi who is effected by illness. So how exactly am I denying it? Unless your literally saying Itachi coughing up blood there was 100% due to his illness and had nothing to do with Susano'o. In which case that is nonsense, as Itachi was not coughing up blood at the very start of the battle or at random. He coughed up blood every time he pushed himself extensively through the usage of his higher end Jutsu. So yes he coughed up blood there due to illness, but it was due to Susano'o straining his body that brought those symptoms to the forefront.


Your argument = Itachi had high difficulty against Orochimaru because he was coughing blood and was in a bad shape after he sealed Orochimaru.
Author attributes Itachi's coughing and poor physical condition to his fatal illness.

I am pretty sure we'r done here.



> Orochimaru doesn't leave one body and enter another. His past bodies are always part of him, he simply goes into another body, taking his past bodies along for the ride. We clearly see that here:


Thats their consciousness or some metaphisical shit, not their body.  ST
They weren't "physicaly" present in another dimension.



> This is also why Kabuto says the transmigration ritual itself has to be performed:
> 
> Kabuto, "The Medicine" "Presently can't be relied on... "Tomorrow...."Or even as soon as today" "the transmigration ritual" "will have to be performed"
> 
> Rather than saying, Orochimaru just needs to leave his old body.  Orochimaru needed to perform the ritual and take over a new host to avoid death, and that's a fact,


Orochimaru needs to leave one body to go into another one. This is not rocket science 

Kabuto mentions "staying in a body." ST
That means he leaves it when the ritual is performed.



> No you said it was Oral-Rebirth, but in the instances I'm citing Orochimaru did not use Oral Rebirth.


The only time Orochimaru did something that remotely resembles regeneration is when he used Oral Rebirth(which is a kawarimi).

Other than that, he once re-attached his torso, and thats because of his white snake form.



> Cool, and that only furthers my point, that fan-drawn parallels are a stupid way to evaluate character strength. Itachi is around Minato's level because he proved his metal through feats, hype, etc... not because some fan's like herp da derp author using same literary device in 2 scenes therefore those characters must be equal. But if you wish to degrage the argument for Itachi being around Minato's "level" to the point of, resting it's laurels on this dumb concept, be my guest.


Are you saying that drawing a parallel between Nawaki and Naruto is the same as drawing one with Itachi & Minato ? 


And no one actually claimed that Itachi & Minato are equal only because of the parallels. It is just one of the reasons why people might think they'r equals.


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## Empathy (May 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> They are close, though I do think Minato is slightly better. However you should not be getting that from parallels, otherwise Nawaki = Naruto.



I was just kidding.


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## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

considering how easily and by doing just this kabuto was able to prevent genjutsu from both MS users

ST

what stops orochimaru from doing the same when he has the same abilities as base snake kabuto?

also orochimaru got doton to straight up flee and avoid direct eye contact

jiriaya can do the same with his hair am sure and from there guerrilla tactics. 
*
note: if genjutsu can be prevented or eliminated they are far more likely to win*


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## Turrin (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Your argument = Itachi had high difficulty against Orochimaru because he was coughing blood and was in a bad shape after he sealed Orochimaru.
> Author attributes Itachi's coughing and poor physical condition to his fatal illness.
> 
> I am pretty sure we'r done here.


No my point is that handicapped Itachi had high diff with handicapped Orochimaru. Itachi coughed blood because Susano'o brought the symptoms of his handicap [Illness] to the forefront. 



> Thats their consciousness or some metaphisical shit, not their body. AoE
> .


Orochimaru saying their subconscious will live on through him doesn't mean their body does not. In-fact he says that while taking over Genryomaru's body lol



> They weren't "physicaly" present in another dimension


No, but it's symbolic of their bodies being taken over and becoming part of Orochimaru's.



> Orochimaru needs to leave one body to go into another one. This is not rocket science


Show me where that is stated, EVER. 

And your right it's not rocket science, Kabuto says the ritual needs to be performed or Orochimaru will die. He would not say that if Orochimaru could simply leave his current host.



> Kabuto mentions "staying in a body." AoE
> That means he leaves it when the ritual is performed.


Okay and that doesn't help your point. Your saying once Orochimaru left his current body he was totally fine, yet Kabuto says Orochimaru needs to transfer or he'll die. He would not say that if Orochimaru could just leave his current body.

Furthermore, you yourself admitted in my translation thread that it was Orochimaru swapping bodies that enabled him to overcome the effects of ShikiFuujin. So Body failure aside Orochimaru leaving his host body would still mean he'd reduce himself to the state he was in after ShikiFuujin I.E. no arms and near death from having part of his soul ripped out. So no matter what way you slice it, your wrong, and by your own admission no less.



> The only time Orochimaru did something that remotely resembles regeneration is when he used Oral Rebirth(which is a kawarimi).
> 
> Other than that, he once re-attached his torso, and thats because of his white snake form.


Okay so he can reattach his torso but can't reattach his hand. What the fuck sense does that make.



> re you saying that drawing a parallel between Nawaki and Naruto is the same as drawing one with Itachi & Minato ?


There equally dumb way to determine strength is what i'm saying.



> And no one actually claimed that Itachi & Minato are equal only because of the parallels. It is just one of the reasons why people might think they'r equals.


That's like saying, I think Itachi and Minato are roughly equal for all of these valid reasons, but also because I got stoned one time and a pink elephant told me. But it's cool because that's only one of the reasons. Basically it's Bullshit, not matter how you try to spin it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No my point is that handicapped Itachi had high diff with handicapped Orochimaru. Itachi coughed blood because Susano'o brought the symptoms of his handicap [Illness] to the forefront.


You just admitted that Itachi wouldn't be in that shape if he wasn't sick. 
@ best you can argue is that Itachi's illness made the fight hard for him, not Orochimaru.

You can't turn this Turrin. There is no middle ground either. You either have make some changes to your argument or forfeit it completely.
This is getting really ridiculuous.



> Orochimaru saying their subconscious will live on through him doesn't mean their body does not. In-fact he says that while taking over Genryomaru's body lol


Dude, Orochimaru doesn't physically enter their body how is that possible ? He basically transfers his consciousness and chakra, taking over the hosts body.



> > No, but it's *symbolic* of their bodies being taken over and becoming part of Orochimaru's.


Yes. It is symbolic. They aren't physically there. 

S





> how me where that is stated, EVER.
> 
> And your right it's not rocket science, Kabuto says the ritual needs to be performed or Orochimaru will die. He would not say that if Orochimaru could simply leave his current host.
> 
> Okay and that doesn't help your point. Your saying once Orochimaru left his current body he was totally fine, yet Kabuto says Orochimaru needs to transfer or he'll die. He would not say that if Orochimaru could just leave his current body.



It actually does help my point. Kabuto said Orochimaru needs to stay in one body. You can't make it more clear that he leaves his old body to enter another when the ritual is performed 

Orochimaru can leave the hosts body, but he can do it in white snake form. I am pretty sure Orochimaru'd rather want to live in a human form rather than as a giant snake. 



> Furthermore, you yourself admitted in my translation thread that it was Orochimaru swapping bodies that enabled him to overcome the effects of ShikiFuujin. So Body failure aside Orochimaru leaving his host body would still mean he'd reduce himself to the state he was in after ShikiFuujin I.E. no arms and near death from having part of his soul ripped out. So no matter what way you slice it, your wrong, and by your own admission no less.


Yes, his old body's(the one Hiruzen sealed) arms were useless, but once he went inside another body he gained use of his arms again. 
Arms : AoE
No arms : AoE

And Orochimaru in white snake form doesn't have arms anyways, not sure what your point is here ?



> Okay so he can reattach his torso but can't reattach his hand. What the fuck sense does that make.


Snakes don't have hands. Thats why : Link removed
Orochimaru's true form allows him to re-attach his torso, but not his limbs because his true form has no limbs.



> There equally dumb way to determine strength is what i'm saying.


Um no. Whats happening here that basically I'm comparing Sandaime Raikage to A, and you'r saying that making that comparison is as dumb as comparing Kirabi to Black Zetsu. 

Well this is majorly off topic, I am willing to discuss this in another thread.

What you


> That's like saying, I think Itachi and Minato are roughly equal for all of these valid reasons, but also because I got stoned one time and a pink elephant told me. But it's cool because that's only one of the reasons. Basically it's Bullshit, not matter how you try to spin it.


Well, I don't know about that but I suspect that you'r stoned right now given you'r making no ense


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 26, 2015)

Orochimaru is made of snakes.  I don't get how he needs oral rebirth for a piddly hand, but not his torso.  Oral rebirth seems like the thing he'd use for the most serious damage.


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## Icegaze (May 26, 2015)

oral rebirth is a regeneration technique. 
orochimaru says so when he introduces kabuto to his plans

he calls it being born anew. So no minor damage doesnt require oral rebirth. Or anything really. kabuto uses it for surprise attacks more than anything


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Orochimaru is made of snakes.  I don't get how he needs oral rebirth for a piddly hand, but not his torso.  Oral rebirth seems like the thing he'd use for the most serious damage.



I like I said I'm going with the most sensible explanation.

He used Oral rebirth to mitigate the damage done to his arm. But he was able re-attach his torso, a more vital area, which looked exactly like his true form while doing so. His true form doesn't have arms and legs. Might be the reason why he can attach the torso, but can't do the same for the rest of his body.


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## Turrin (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You just admitted that Itachi wouldn't be in that shape if he wasn't sick.
> @ best you can argue is that Itachi's illness made the fight hard for him, not Orochimaru.


Let me ask you something Grim. Do you think Itachi coughing up blood had nothing to do with him using Susano'o and is just a random thing due to his illness? 



> Dude, Orochimaru doesn't physically enter their body how is that possible ? He basically transfers his consciousness and chakra, taking over the hosts body.


Yes he does, that's why the only thing left after Fuushi-Tensei was the white-snake skin, not it's body.

Kabuto, "That's the molted skin of the giant snake" "Does that mean it's too late and the ritual is already over!?"



> Yes. It is symbolic. They aren't physically there.


Yes, but their bodies are part of Orochimaru.



> It actually does help my point. Kabuto said Orochimaru needs to stay in one body. You can't make it more clear that he leaves his old body to enter another when the ritual is performed
> 
> Orochimaru can leave the hosts body, but he can do it in white snake form. I am pretty sure Orochimaru'd rather want to live in a human form rather than as a giant snake.


There's a difference between prefers to and has to. Kabuto is saying Orochimaru has to enter a new body, which is not a matter of preference, but a matter of necessity.



> Yes, his old body's(the one Hiruzen sealed) arms were useless, but once he went inside another body he gained use of his arms again.
> Arms : Link removed
> No arms : Link removed


Yeah and w/o a host body he also wouldn't have arms and would be subject to the soul rip side effects again which brought him to death's door



> And Orochimaru in white snake form doesn't have arms anyways, not sure what your point is here ?


My point is no matter which way you try to spin this, Orochimaru was extremely handicapped himself during that fight. 



> Snakes don't have hands. Thats why : Link removed
> Orochimaru's true form allows him to re-attach his torso, but not his limbs because his true form has no limbs.


lol, alright let's pretend for a second that's true. Now I ask again how does Orochimaru's hand being cut off beat him. 



> Um no. Whats happening here that basically I'm comparing Sandaime Raikage to A, and you'r saying that making that comparison is as dumb as comparing Kirabi to Black Zetsu.


Nah bro. Sandaime-Raikage and Ei are comparable because they have some overlapping abilities. Itachi and Minato do not. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He used Oral rebirth to mitigate the damage done to his arm. But he was able re-attach his torso, a more vital area, which looked exactly like his true form while doing so. His true form doesn't have arms and legs. Might be the reason why he can attach the torso, but can't do the same for the rest of his body.


His arms couldn't be reattached in those instances because they were ether sent flying far away or melted by Kyuubi chakra. He did not look like his true form



The snakes in that panel were shaded darker than the true form snakes and had scales which the true form snakes lacked. 



> I like I said I'm going with the most sensible explanation.


The most sensible explanation is that the Orochimaru vs Itachi flashback was simply meant to show Itachi was always a step ahead of Orochimaru, not that he had defeated him by cutting his hand off. As even your true-form explanation doesn't explain how that defeated Orochimaru.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I like I said I'm going with the most sensible explanation.
> 
> He used Oral rebirth to mitigate the damage done to his arm. But he was able re-attach his torso, a more vital area, which looked exactly like his true form while doing so. His true form doesn't have arms and legs. Might be the reason why he can attach the torso, but can't do the same for the rest of his body.



I would argue the sensible explanation is that he could use snakes to reconnect any part of his body, but uses Orochimaru Kawarimi for substitution and escape purposes.


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## Sans (May 26, 2015)

Mind-set is in character, so I surmise that Jiraiya and Itachi beat up Orochimaru together.


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## UchihaX28 (May 26, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Mind-set is in character, so I surmise that Jiraiya and Itachi beat up Orochimaru together.



 Mind-set would also indicate Jiraiya going after Itachi due to him only having knowledge of Itachi's relationship with the Akatsuki and not his true intentions.


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## Sans (May 26, 2015)

I surmise that you took me seriously, and that was your downfall.


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## UchihaX28 (May 26, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> I surmise that you took me seriously, and that was your downfall.





 Guess you don't know me very well then.


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## Sans (May 26, 2015)

Have I been outplayed....?

At my own crappy game...


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

You are the weakest link now Komnenos


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## uchihasasuke23 (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi creates a karasu bunshin faster than their eyes can track, creates a distraction with crows, blindsides Jiraiya and hits him with Amaterasu.
> 
> Then proceeds to steamroll Orochimaru with Totsuka, or forces eye contact with Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Piece of cake for Itachi.



yes, like this...even legend sannin or somthing remember that Itachi is an UCHIHA


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## hbcaptain (Sep 16, 2016)

Itachi wins high diff.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ayala (Sep 16, 2016)

Oh my Jesus, look at this thread 

People convinced Itachi kills 2 sannin at the same time. A certain dude saying Itachi soloes low diff, while in another thread he says Itachi's underrated. I mean, Itachi has actually more votes. Wtf man

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2016)

Orochimaru can likely hold off Itachi until Jiriaya enters SM at which point this will end poorly for Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Oh my Jesus, look at this thread
> 
> People convinced Itachi kills 2 sannin at the same time. A certain dude saying Itachi soloes low diff, while in another thread he says Itachi's underrated. I mean, Itachi has actually more votes. Wtf man



Your surprise surprises me!
Read his posts and you will see how predictable his argument is


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Orochimaru can likely hold off Itachi



Thats comical 



Icegaze said:


> Your surprise surprises me!
> Read his posts and you will see how predictable his argument is





Icegaze said:


> both can effectively fight blind if they know who they are fighting
> i



At least I have an argument


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2016)

Hilarious posts
Not like both don't have the ability to fight with limited vision


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## Sapherosth (Sep 16, 2016)

I remembered something intriguing about Orochimaru vs Itachi.


Itachi seems to know a lot about Orochimaru's techniques and he seems to remember the "feeling" of Orochimaru's Hydra technique. 

Does this mean the fight didn't end at 3T genjutsu back then? Or did it simply mean that they worked together for a little while and Itachi witnessed Orochimaru's tech's. 


What do you all think about this possibility?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Hilarious posts
> Not like both don't have the ability to fight with limited vision



Based on what exactly that they can fight eyes closed ?


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats comical


It's true though Orochimaru would talk and talk for hours, Itachi would eventually take him out but Jiraiya should be able to enter SM or summon Ma/Pa.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> It's true though Orochimaru would talk and talk for hours, Itachi would eventually take him out but Jiraiya should be able to enter SM or summon Ma/Pa.


Itachi  won't let Orochimaru utter any words. He is not the kind of guy who goes easy on his opponents. He is pretty relentless on the offense. Not that Orochimaru has anything that can keep Itachi's hands full anyway.

I don't actually see Jiraiya doing nothing for a good minute or two while Orochimaru keeps Itachi busy. Itachi will immediately go for the defenseless one, and there isn't much Orochimaru can do to defend Jiriaya from the onslaught Itachi will send his way.

Jiraiya going SM doesn't solve any of his problems either, he is still susceptible to Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and he is not powerful enough to fight Susano'O head on.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi  won't let Orochimaru utter any words. He is not the kind of guy who goes easy on his opponents. He is pretty relentless on the offense. Not that Orochimaru has anything that can keep Itachi's hands full anyway.
> 
> I don't actually see Jiraiya doing nothing for a good minute or two while Orochimaru keeps Itachi busy. Itachi will immediately go for the defenseless one, and there isn't much Orochimaru can do to defend Jiriaya from the onslaught Itachi will send his way.
> 
> Jiraiya going SM doesn't solve any of his problems either, he is still susceptible to Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu and he is not powerful enough to fight Susano'O head on.


Yeah but Gama Rinsho would be a game ender for Itachi so the match has to end before that happens. That's why Jiraiya having any support against Itachi I feel will always end in his favor, because naturally in a 1 vs. 1, Itachi would win because he would not let Jiraiya get to that point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but Gama Rinsho would be a game ender for Itachi so the match has to end before that happens. That's why Jiraiya having any support against Itachi I feel will always end in his favor, because naturally in a 1 vs. 1, Itachi would win because he would not let Jiraiya get to that point.



Gama Rinsho can get Itachi, but for that to happen, Jiraiya needs to activate SM, which means he is in a pretty defenseless state for a minute or two. And then he needs the sages to prep the song, which means they'll be mostly on the run for a while because they need ma and pa to gather chakra for it, and they don't want anything to disrupt the duet. 
Seems too impossible when you think about the OHKO jutsu Itachi can use in quick succession to prevent any of that from happening.

So they have like 1 guaranteed game ender on their side which needs quite some time to come out and needs everything to go right, and on the other hand Itachi has like 3 Jutsu that he can pretty much use from the get go that can end the game for them.

Odds favor Itachi more here.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gama Rinsho can get Itachi, but for that to happen, Jiraiya needs to activate SM, which means he is in a pretty defenseless state for a minute or two. And then he needs the sages to prep the song, which means they'll be mostly on the run for a while because they need ma and pa to gather chakra for it, and they don't want anything to disrupt the duet.
> Seems too impossible when you think about the OHKO jutsu Itachi can use in quick succession to prevent any of that from happening.
> 
> So they have like 1 guaranteed game ender on their side which needs quite some time to come out and needs everything to go right, and on the other hand Itachi has like 3 Jutsu that he can pretty much use from the get go that can end the game for them.
> ...


Yeah worst case scenario with Orochimaru and one of the toads, Jiraiya can enter SM and that would be it, the rest is just history. i don't think Itachi can hit Jiraiya while he is in SM but likewise outside of Gama RInsho Jiraiya can't do anything to Itachi while he is in Susano'o. The reason why I don't think Tsukuyomi would work is because this isn't Jiraiya's first rodeo, he's a seasoned shinobi probably wouldn't make the mistake of looking him directly in the eye.

The prep was only required the first time since they were out of practice, they were able to execute it rather quickly with Naruto vs. Pain as opposed to Jiraiya vs. Pain.

Edit: If this was Tsunade and Jiraiya, I'd be more inclined to agree with you, but Itachi here has to worry about too much offense. Whereas with Tsunade, he just Amaterasu's her, while Jiraiya is prepping and the fight trickles down to 1 vs. 1.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah worst case scenario with Orochimaru and one of the toads, Jiraiya can enter SM and that would be it, the rest is just history. i don't think Itachi can hit Jiraiya while he is in SM but likewise outside of Gama RInsho Jiraiya can't do anything to Itachi while he is in Susano'o. The reason why I don't think Tsukuyomi would work is because this isn't Jiraiya's first rodeo, he's a seasoned shinobi probably wouldn't make the mistake of looking him directly in the eye.



Itachi can OHKO Jiraiya with Amaterasu whether he is in SM or not. He doesn't have V2 levels of speed to avoid it, nor the sensory capabilities to preempt it or any ability that counters it.
I don't buy the seasoned fighter argument, there is absolutely no evidence that Jiraiya is accustomed to fighting the sharingan, let alone mangekyou sharingan. 
He was staring at Itachi in the hotel. I'm pretty sure he isn't going to be able to consistently avoid eye contact, nor he can consistently avoid Susano'O or Amaterasu. 

And Orochimaru can only deal with Amaterasu and nothing else.

Neither of these guys have any reliable ways to fight MS, except for oral rebirth for Oro which only negates Amaterasu.
Jiraiya will have to rely on circumstances.



> The prep was only required the first time since they were out of practice, they were able to execute it rather quickly with Naruto vs. Pain as opposed to Jiraiya vs. Pain.



Not really. They still had to gather chakra for a while : she can split it into two different directions to catch multiple people and she can now curve it


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## Icegaze (Sep 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Based on what exactly that they can fight eyes closed ?



Jiriaya has a sensing Barrier . Why exactly can't he fight with it seeing that it detects movement within the area . He used that to locate a chameleon he couldn't see 

Even if one is to assume he doesnt close his eyes that at least allows him to not look at Itachi which is the only way he can get caught in genjutsu 

Oro does something as simple as what Kabuto did 
Fight in retreat . 
Seeing that it's 2 vs 1 abit easier to pull off


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## Isaiah13000 (Sep 16, 2016)

This is a lock worthy thread.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ghoztly (Sep 16, 2016)

Why the fuck do people keep pitting people with no defense against genjutsu let alone the mangekyou sharingan against Itachi.

I am facepalming hard. 

What are all these Itachi threads

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 16, 2016)

Ghoztly said:


> Why the fuck do people keep pitting people with no defense against genjutsu let alone the mangekyou sharingan against Itachi.
> 
> I am facepalming hard.
> 
> What are all these Itachi threads



 Orochimaru fangirls are salty butt-hurt at the fact that Kishimoto established Orochimaru's inferiority to Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Sep 16, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I remembered something intriguing about Orochimaru vs Itachi.
> Itachi seems to know a lot about Orochimaru's techniques and he seems to remember the "feeling" of Orochimaru's Hydra technique. Does this mean the fight didn't end at 3T genjutsu back then? Or did it simply mean that they worked together for a little while and Itachi witnessed Orochimaru's tech's. What do you all think about this possibility?


I highly doubt that "battle" continued & if it did why are both of them alive? Did they stalemate? It's more likely that Orochimaru used Yamata in front of Itachi.
_____________________
OT: Totsuka GG.

Maybe I should expand....
Jiraiya & Orochimaru gang up on the kid and rob him. They empty his pockets and push him on the ground. Then while they're walking away with some kunai, a necklace, his shoes & a weird photo of sasuke they sense an ominous chakra & see Itachis Susanoo. Orochimaru casually walks up and takes the Totsuka to seal Itachi. Totsuka GG.

lol really though 2 vs 1 ? It's a low difficulty battle for this duo.


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## euss6678 (Sep 16, 2016)

wow its actually sad, Itachi has more votes.


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 16, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi can OHKO Jiraiya with Amaterasu whether he is in SM or not. He doesn't have V2 levels of speed to avoid it, nor the sensory capabilities to preempt it or any ability that counters it.
> I don't buy the seasoned fighter argument, there is absolutely no evidence that Jiraiya is accustomed to fighting the sharingan, let alone mangekyou sharingan.
> He was staring at Itachi in the hotel. I'm pretty sure he isn't going to be able to consistently avoid eye contact, nor he can consistently avoid Susano'O or Amaterasu.
> 
> ...


I wouldn't make much of a thing about it with Jiraiya had he not prepped Naruto for genjutsu breaking training and used Itachi as a prime example. He's seen Amaterasu in action so I gave him the benefit of the doubt there too, that plus the spawn distance is like close range at which point Jiraiya could react to it. According to the databook, he was given sage sensing retroactively, so he does have that. But all of this is moot, if the toads cast Gama Rinsho which I can tell is something Jiraiya would be working towards. 

That's why I said Orochimaru can buy time against him while Jiraiya can prep SM/Frog Song/Call.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not really. They still had to gather chakra for a while : gold or silver


Yeah, gathering chakra for senjutsu is different than them executing the technique, unlike before where Pain had some time to move with the Frog Song active, it won't take them that long here. Plus, there's Frog Call.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Jiriaya has a sensing Barrier . Why exactly can't he fight with it seeing that it detects movement within the area . He used that to locate a chameleon he couldn't see
> 
> Even if one is to assume he doesnt close his eyes that at least allows him to not look at Itachi which is the only way he can get caught in genjutsu



What people don't understand about fighting eyes closed is, you are shutting off your most dominant sense. You can't even balance yourself on foot eyes closed if you are not used to it.
A barrier that doesn't do anything other than detect movement doesn't replace his sense of seeing.
What you are saying right now is like playing battlefield or any other FPS game by looking at the minimap alone.
Jiraiya can't fight eyes closed. It is even doubtful if he can fight by avoiding eye contact, because it is stated in part 1 that it is impossible to do it effectively unless you trained for it.



> Oro does something as simple as what Kabuto did
> Fight in retreat .
> Seeing that it's 2 vs 1 abit easier to pull off


Kabuto was a juiced up version of Oro, he was more prepared against sharingan and he had SM which actually allowed him to fight eyes closed. And he was able to do all that when his opponents were trying to capture him.

If Orochimaru retreats, Itachi just goes after Jiraiya and kills him when he apparently has his eyes closed, hands clasped together and preparing SM, hoping nothing goes wrong.

You have to read your own posts before criticising others, or you'll get picked apart and dismantled in the blink of an eye.



Ryuzaki said:


> I wouldn't make much of a thing about it with Jiraiya had he not prepped Naruto for genjutsu breaking training and used Itachi as a prime example. He's seen Amaterasu in action so I gave him the benefit of the doubt there too, that plus the spawn distance is like close range at which point Jiraiya could react to it. According to the databook, he was given sage sensing retroactively, so he does have that. But all of this is moot, if the toads cast Gama Rinsho which I can tell is something Jiraiya would be working towards.
> 
> That's why I said Orochimaru can buy time against him while Jiraiya can prep SM/Frog Song/Call.


Jiraiya never saw Amaterasu in action.
He saw the aftermath.
Jiraiya can't react to Amaterasu, there is absolutely no evidence he can. 
Again, my point stands, pulling out Frog song requires lots of time in which most of it Jiraiya can't engage directly. Orochimaru isn't holding Itachi off when we know how easily Itachi can dispatch him, as he priorly did in the manga.



> Yeah, gathering chakra for senjutsu is different than them executing the technique, unlike before where Pain had some time to move with the Frog Song active, it won't take them that long here. Plus, there's Frog Call.



They were dispatched the instant they started singing the song. They have the complete the duet for the genjutsu to take effect, that is why it is a duet. They still have to invest the same amount of time.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What people don't understand about fighting eyes closed is, you are shutting off your most dominant sense. You can't even balance yourself on foot eyes closed if you are not used to it.
> A barrier that doesn't do anything other than detect movement doesn't replace his sense of seeing.
> What you are saying right now is like playing battlefield or any other FPS game by looking at the minimap alone.
> Jiraiya can't fight eyes closed. It is even doubtful if he can fight by avoiding eye contact, because it is stated in part 1 that it is impossible to do it effectively unless you trained for it.
> ...



Fan fic there
You Gotta train to fight without eye contact when you have no other means of detecting your enemy eg: gai 

Jiriaya can pick up movement , so can react to Itachi behind him even if he isn't looking at him 

By the same token means he can afford to keep his head down and fight since he doesn't need to look at Itachi face 

Naruto could easily look at Itachi chest granted he got caught by other means 

Though getting caught by weaker means allows oro to break him out

Then you have his ability to create clones which aren't affected by genjutsu if he is

Tbh you can believe Itachi beats an army of the duo if it validates your life 

When hidden mist alone was a problem for sharingan I don't see how smoke bombs and jiriaya entire tool kit can't present a problem for sharingan


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fan fic there


It is common sense + manga evidence.
But I know you lack both, so I'm not suprised you think that.


> You Gotta train to fight without eye contact when you have no other means of detecting your enemy eg: gai
> 
> Jiriaya can pick up movement , so can react to Itachi behind him even if he isn't looking at him



React to what ? He doesn't even know what is coming his way. 
In before detection barrier notifies him of the  type incoming attack, the damage type, the element and all the details. 




> By the same token means he can afford to keep his head down and fight since he doesn't need to look at Itachi face


Again, not having your eyes on your opponent means that you will lose track of them easily and you won't be able to tell what kind of an attack they'll dish out.


> Naruto could easily look at Itachi chest granted he got caught by other means


Easily ? 
He was just standing there and sweating and then charged head on. He did absolutely nothing, he didn't even see the crows coming until they were in his face. 



> Then you have his ability to create clones which aren't affected by genjutsu if he is


Lol clones is not a valid argument. They are not clone users IC. Jiraiya only used them when he came up with a plan, and Orochimaru I think only used them once in the forest of death against Anko.
And Jiraiya won't be using anything if he is preparing SM.


> Tbh you can believe Itachi beats an army of the duo if it validates your life


This is not about believing.
This is about manga evidence, and the odds based on that.
The odds of Orochimaru holding Itachi until Jiraiya preps SM and pulls out frog song while Itachi can attack them with 3 of his MS jutsu that are all potential OHKO'S from the get go are slim to none.

Neither of these guys are equipped to deal with Itachi.



> When hidden mist alone was a problem for sharingan I don't see how smoke bombs and jiriaya entire tool kit can't present a problem for sharingan


Hidden mist was a problem for wave arc Kakashi, who held his own to some extend. Itachi is a guy we've seen fight half blind. So it is pretty obvious it won't have the same effect.

Smoke bombs aren't infused with chakra so Sharingan should be able to see through it and they don't cover a large area like hidden mist does.

So about fighting eyes closed, what is your final take on it ? Still think they can fight eyes closed ?


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is common sense + manga evidence.
> But I know you lack both, so I'm not suprised you think that.
> 
> 
> ...


Hidden mist was also a problem for war arc Kakashi who so happened to have Ms
Do you need scans ? Then again you can't read very well
A video perhaps ?

The barrier won't tell jiriaya the type of attack true same way a sensor wouldn't know the type of attack . Just that an attack is coming from a specific direction that's it

Not being IC clone users doesn't even slightly mean they wouldn't use clones when it's obviously required

Itachi in 2 different battles didn't start with genjutsu

Could easily say he doesn't do that till half way through the battle

Sure the same manga who has Itachi saying he is jiriaya equal . Itachi so happened to have knowledge of sage caves and so on , so could be more than just title wanking

But hey you read a different manga where scan captions don't exist telling you the names of Jutsu

What on earth does IC clone user even mean by that logic the only one who spams clones is naruto 

Itachi isn't even an IC clone user if that's what you mean


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Hidden mist was also a problem for war arc Kakashi who so happened to have Ms
> Do you need scans ? Then again you can't read very well
> A video perhaps ?



Kakashi =/= Itachi
Don't make me repeat myself, we've seen Itachi fight blind, half blind and perform without relying too much on vision on certain occasions.
Its pretty obvious that it isn't as much of a hindrace as it would be to someone without those capabilities.
And like I explained smoke bomb =/= hidden mist.
Sharingan can see chakra behind solid rock. Smoke bombs are minor nuisance that doesn't even emcompass a significant area. It is a momentary obscuration, that doesn't really obscure much against sharingan.



> The barrier won't tell jiriaya the type of attack true same way a sensor wouldn't know the type of attack . Just that an attack is coming from a specific direction that's it



Karin can pinpoint people's locations based on their chakra signature. Nagato can guess which jutsu his opponent is going to use based on chakra build up. It is pretty obvious that sensory abilities give more indepth information about what someone is up against
Please don't try to equate motion detection to sensory capabilities, they are completely different.



> Not being IC clone users doesn't even slightly mean they wouldn't use clones when it's obviously required


I didn't say they wouldn't use them but their on the fly bunshin using abilities are questionable.
They aren't people who implement bunshins in their fighting style unless it is absolutely required, which Jiraiya did after retreating and coming up with a plan.



> Itachi in 2 different battles didn't start with genjutsu
> 
> Could easily say he doesn't do that till half way through the battle


Lets see.

First time we saw him, someone else used a genjutsu on him and he reversed it. His genjutsu reversal is classified as genjutsu. So he did use genjutsu at the start of the battle.

Next time we saw him, it was against Sasuke in the hotel. He used genjutsu after beating the shit out of him with taijutsu first, so you can claim that he didn't use genjutsu off the bat.

As a shouten clone he immediately opened with a genjutsu.
Against Orochimaru, he opened with genjutsu.
Against Deidara, he opened with genjutsu.
Against Naruto, he opened with genjutsu(in the forest).
Against Sasuke, he opened with genjutsu.
Against Naruto & B, he didn't open with a genjutsu but he quickly used genjutsu before he went on to use MS, which means he used genjutsu early on.
Against Nagato he didn't use genjutsu, but you can argue that the circumstances didn't present itself.
Against Kabuto, he couldn't initially use genjutsu because Kabuto went hiding and then shut his eyes off.

So among 10 instances, he opened with genjutsu in 6 of them, and used a genjutsu very early on in 1.
Thats 7/10.
Arguing that Itachi won't use genjutsu early on in the battle is completely baseless.



> Sure the same manga who has Itachi saying he is jiriaya equal .


The same manga who said Hiruzen > Hashirama
Don't resort to that shitty argument if you don't want to lose all credibility you have left.



> Itachi so happened to have knowledge of sage caves and so on , so could be more than just title wanking
> 
> But hey you read a different manga where scan captions don't exist telling you the names of Jutsu



I have no idea what you are talking about.



> What on earth does IC clone user even mean by that logic the only one who spams clones is naruto
> 
> Itachi isn't even an IC clone user if that's what you mean



IC clone user means a person who implements bunshins in their fighting style. It doesn't mean who spams bunshins.

Kakashi, Itachi, Hiruzen are examples people who actively use bunshins without spamming them.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi =/= Itachi
> Don't make me repeat myself, we've seen Itachi fight blind, half blind and perform without relying too much on vision on certain occasions.
> Its pretty obvious that it isn't as much of a hindrace as it would be to someone without those capabilities.
> And like I explained smoke bomb =/= hidden mist.
> ...



Long pointless speech my point of bringing up mist or any smokescreen isn't to say Itachi won't be able to fight any longer or is a hindrance to him
It prevents eye contact thus genjutsu or things such as Amaterasu that's it and that's all I've suggested

Smoke screen stopped rinnegan from seeing in front of it twice . Rinnegan is the evolution of sharingan btw
Again learn to read posts before long rubbish responses

Hiruzen used bunshin once to counter an attack from 5 directions not the best example


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Long pointless speech my point of bringing up mist or any smokescreen isn't to say Itachi won't be able to fight any longer or is a hindrance to him
> It prevents eye contact thus genjutsu or things such as Amaterasu that's it and that's all I've suggested


Which doesn't prevent Itachi from hitting them with Totsuka or Magatama. 
And Smoke screen isn't hidden mist. It has smaller range and duration.
Look what happens when there is a dust cloud infront of Itachi : 
Link removed



> Smoke screen stopped rinnegan from seeing in front of it twice . Rinnegan is the evolution of sharingan btw
> Again learn to read posts before long rubbish responses


I'm pretty sure my responses aren't rubbish because all of your points are dismantled and you are left with 1 or 2 points which are hanging by a thread.
As for rinnegan not being able to see through smoke, check again : Link removed Link removed
Please stop wasting my time by dragging on points that I adressed. 



> Hiruzen used bunshin once to counter an attack from 5 directions not the best example



Hiruzen fought twice and he used it in both fights. He didn't use it right off the bat in teh first one because he was trying to conserve stamina, as the anbu pointed out. 

Using bunshins against Pain from the get go would pay alot because it would reduce his number advantage but Jiraiya didn't do it.
Its pretty obvious that he isn't an IC bunshin user.
Neither is Orochimaru.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which doesn't prevent Itachi from hitting them with Totsuka or Magatama.
> And Smoke screen isn't hidden mist. It has smaller range and duration.
> Look what happens when there is a dust cloud infront of Itachi :
> Link removed
> ...



Precisely it doesn't prevent totsuka or magmata however both are easier to avoid than genjutsu or Amaterasu and magmata is entirely pointless against orochimaru 

And yet said non bunshin user used it a lot smarter than just using bunshin which we have no idea how long they can sustain sage mode to engage pain 

Jiriaya 1 fight he used kage bunshin


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## ~M~ (Sep 17, 2016)

Jiraiya given a couple advantages could take itachi alone. 

It's delusional to think he could handle two sannin. One plus a minor support even can tip the scales. 

But hey there are people on this forum somehow convinced his susannoo is indestructible and there's no convincing them otherwise. I can promise someone here thinks he could take all 3.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Jiraiya given a couple advantages could take itachi alone.
> 
> It's delusional to think he could handle two sannin. One plus a minor support even can tip the scales.
> 
> But hey there are people on this forum somehow convinced his susannoo is indestructible and there's no convincing them otherwise. I can promise someone here thinks he could take all 3.



Lol 
Just all 3
I retcon 2 squads of each 
Casually I must add


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Jiraiya given a couple advantages could take itachi alone.


What kind of advantages ?

I'm pretty sure given enough advantages, you could make weaker shinobi defeat stronger ones. And I'm fine with that as long as you keep the scenario relatively realistic, instead of turning things into spite threads.



> It's delusional to think he could handle two sannin. One plus a minor support even can tip the scales.


Its delusional to think otherwise, under these conditions.
Plus stop throwing around the word "sannin" as if it means something.
We've seen what Itachi has done to a Sannin.

And lol, no. A minor support isn't doing shit. In most cases, minor supports stay out of the way when 2 kage level shinobi are duking out, for good reasons too.



> But hey there are people on this forum somehow convinced his susannoo is indestructible and there's no convincing them otherwise. I can promise someone here thinks he could take all 3.



Those things are relative. A strong enough attack can destroy anything. But if we are speaking within context, yes, Itachi's Susano'O is indestructable for Orochimaru and Jiraiya.
But feel free to prove otherwise.



Icegaze said:


> Precisely it doesn't prevent totsuka or magmata however both are easier to avoid than genjutsu or Amaterasu and magmata is entirely pointless against orochimaru
> 
> And yet said non bunshin user used it a lot smarter than just using bunshin which we have no idea how long they can sustain sage mode to engage pain
> 
> Jiriaya 1 fight he used kage bunshin



It is no brainer that totsuka and Magatama are easier to avoid than Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. But that doesn't mean that they are easy to avoid at all. Itachi can throw 4 Magatama with one hand : Link removed
and corner his opponent like he did to Kabuto and follow with Totsuka with the other.

Base Jiraiya doesn't have much feats, and there is nothing suggests that he can avoid those kind of attacks consistently. Especially if he is trying to prep sage mode and his only means of mobility is Gamaken or if he is solely relying on protection from Orochimaru, who can't engage Itachi directly without getting butchered.

We've seen Itachi nail people with Totsuka with precision when he was blind and when his vision is blocked. It has speed and pretty decent range. The problem with hiding behind a smoke screen is that you are also at a disadvantage because you won't see whats coming from the other end of a smoke screen.

I think most of those so called MS counters are easier said than done and we really haven't seen them in action to see how effective they would be. But considering Jiraiya was struggling against 3 weaker paths of pain even with SM, I wouldn't give him any chance against Itachi without SM and very low odds with SM.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ~M~ (Sep 17, 2016)

if I wanted to say Jiraiya was superior I would have. Obviously what I'm implying is that the difference is minor. 

Sannin are high Kage tier and a low Kage ally would be enough assistance to distract an enemy. I think you're underestimating the usefulness of fodder. One can't defend as well while attacking and that's undeniable. 

And finally I have high doubts about susanoo escaping the demonic swamp (I don't think it could just fly out) so I can't say Jiraiya can't handle susanoo. His defensive and sensing arsenal is plenty to hagger itachi. You seem to believe in the no limits fallacy of susanoo when there's enough knowledge and ability in the Sannin's hands to contumely batter the summon. 

And when a simple punch from Tsunade is enough to damage lesser forms of susannoo I won't be buying that two of her counterparts together cannot match her performance. That's just silly.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What kind of advantages ?
> 
> I'm pretty sure given enough advantages, you could make weaker shinobi defeat stronger ones. And I'm fine with that as long as you keep the scenario relatively realistic, instead of turning things into spite threads.
> 
> ...



So long as we agree they are easier to avoid normally and would be more so with smoke bombs , clones etc 
That's my point and that's all am getting at


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## Sapherosth (Sep 17, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I highly doubt that "battle" continued & if it did why are both of them alive? Did they stalemate? It's more likely that Orochimaru used Yamata in front of Itachi.
> _____________________
> OT: Totsuka GG.
> 
> ...




Lmao , they never stalemate. Orochimaru ran away. He even admitted Itachi was the reason he ran away. 

Odds are, the battle continued after Oro got his hand cut off, and used his oral rebirth, yamata or whatever else he has, gets defeated and ran away.


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## WorldsStrongest (Sep 17, 2016)

Itachi fodderized oro in the manga didnt he? Either way oro has admitted inferiority to itachi on more than one occasion. And didnt oro beat jiraiya when he left the village ages ago? Imo Itachi>Sannin individually at least, judging by how he murdered oro easily.

Im fairly certain that itachi knows of sage mode, he seemed to know something about it when he fought kabuto with sasuke, and jiraiya needs a long time to enter sage mode, something itachi going for the kill, wont give him. Any boss summons the duo spawn get 1 shotted by either Ama or susanno blades, eventually itachi tags one of the sannin with ama as well, considering neither have the speed feats to physically dodge it (oro can use his unique replacement that sasuke used against ama b4)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

~M~ said:


> if I wanted to say Jiraiya was superior I would have. Obviously what I'm implying is that the difference is minor.
> 
> Sannin are high Kage tier and a low Kage ally would be enough assistance to distract an enemy. I think you're underestimating the usefulness of fodder. One can't defend as well while attacking and that's undeniable.



The thing is, the stronger shinobi will most likely find themselves in unfavorable positions when they are forced to defend the weaker ones. We've seen this happen over and over again in the manga. Kakashi got hurt when he was trying to defend Kurenai, Itachi was hurt when he was trying to defend Sasuke from Kabuto. Nagato was hurt when he was trying to save Konan, and I'm pretty sure there are more examples.

What you think as an advantage can quickly turn the otherway. Especially considering shinobi of Itachi's calibre and the lethality his MS brings. You either can deal with it, or you get raped pretty quickly. There is no in between.



> And finally I have high doubts about susanoo escaping the demonic swamp (I don't think it could just fly out) so I can't say Jiraiya can't handle susanoo. His defensive and sensing arsenal is plenty to hagger itachi. You seem to believe in the no limits fallacy of susanoo when there's enough knowledge and ability in the Sannin's hands to contumely batter the summon.



Yomi Numa has never trapped anything as powerful as Susano'O though. Its not a subtle jutsu or anything either, Itachi can likely preempt it with sharingan and react to the formation of chakra underneath his feet.
If that was jutsu that was hard to avoid, then I think Jiraiya wouldn't need to mask it with tons of other stuff to bind a blind Pain body.

Is there a chance that Jiraiya can land Yomi Numa ? Yes. But the odds of Itachi taking Jiraiya down with his MS arsenal seem much higher. It has nothing to do with no limits fallacy here. We know what Susano'O can withstand. Neither Orochimaru nor Jiraiya has a powerful enough jutsu to breach Susano'O or hurt Itachi through it, bar indirect means like Frog Song.

So again, this is just an estimation of odds. The odds of Jiraiya successfully preparing sage mode and then executing the duet are less likely to happen than Itachi just activating his MS and going ham.



> And when a simple punch from Tsunade is enough to damage lesser forms of susannoo I won't be buying that two of her counterparts together cannot match her performance. That's just silly.



A single punch from Tsunade can crack the lesser forms and thats it. Tsunade wasn't able to accomplish anything against higher stages of Susano'O and this doesn't prove that the rest of the sannin can either.
Don't forget that they have completely different arsenals and strengths and weaknesses.

The other side of the coin is that, Itachi dispatched Orochimaru relatively easily and was portrayed on a much higher level. So by using your logic I can say that the rest of the sannin being able to do anything of significance is a silly thought.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

@Grimmjowsensei 
A tolerance for pain far exceeds that of Kakashi though 
Has Enton on his arm chops his arm off doesn't flinch should ring a bell
So him being perfectly fine after genjutsu is dispelled really has more to do with him than it does with genjutsu 

Again my main point has been avoiding direct eye contact is possible , which is what's needed to avoid genjutsu 

Bar that everything else is easier to deal with considerably 

Which you urself agreed to


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> A tolerance for pain far exceeds that of Kakashi though
> Has Enton on his arm chops his arm off doesn't flinch should ring a bell
> So him being perfectly fine after genjutsu is dispelled really has more to do with him than it does with genjutsu


Isn't this for the other thread ?

There is no evidence that his pain tolerance far exceeds Kakashi based on that. Deidara was casually hanging around with 2 of his arms missing. Did you see Shisui when he plucked his eye out and handed it over to Itachi ? Lol.

The other explanation is that, what Madara used on A wasn't Tsukiyomi(which we know it wasn't) and A wasn't suspect to 72 hours of torture and thats why he was in better shape than Kakashi.

The bottom line is that, there is absolutely no evidence that Madara has Tsukiyomi or any jutsu of that caliber and looking at how someone can casually dispell the effects of his genjutsu, it is very likely that it is a generic MS genjutsu like Sasuke's.

I'd appreciate it if this debate doesn't go any futher too.




> Again my main point has been avoiding direct eye contact is possible , which is what's needed to avoid genjutsu
> 
> Bar that everything else is easier to deal with considerably
> 
> Which you urself agreed to



Any my point is that while avoiding direct eye contact is possible, there is no denying that it is a hindrance. You can't argue that it is something they have practiced and got accustomed to on daily basis, like Gai has, and it will make their job harder to deal with everything else, especially Amaterasu since they need to watch Itachi's eyes for visual ques. Not that Jiraiya can realistically avoid Amaterasu but there is no way he can preempt it unless he is looking at Itachi's eyes.
Its the classic catch 22. You need to look into Itachi's eyes to avoid Amaterasu, but if you do then you'll get oneshot by Tsukiyomi.
I'm obviously leaving out shinobi who can deal with those techniques, but Jiraiya isn't one of  them.


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, the stronger shinobi will most likely find themselves in unfavorable positions when they are forced to defend the weaker ones. We've seen this happen over and over again in the manga. Kakashi got hurt when he was trying to defend Kurenai, Itachi was hurt when he was trying to defend Sasuke from Kabuto. Nagato was hurt when he was trying to save Konan, and I'm pretty sure there are more examples.
> 
> What you think as an advantage can quickly turn the otherway. Especially considering shinobi of Itachi's calibre and the lethality his MS brings. You either can deal with it, or you get raped pretty quickly. There is no in between.
> 
> ...



Now this argument I like 
And I agree to 
if we go on likleiness  MS is far more likely to land than YN or frog song etc

Same way sharingan genjutsu would be easier to land as its easier to use and can be used more readily and freely , however I think they got counters as I have previously mentioned 

What I don't agree to is them being defenceless

Though not used on him we have seen a fire scroll seal Amaterasu , we know sound base Jutsu can by pass susanoo , we also know it's weakness is attack from below ground etc

In 2 vs 1, I don't find it likely he takes them out in such quick succession without the second guy learning from his first fallen comrade


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## Icegaze (Sep 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Isn't this for the other thread ?
> 
> There is no evidence that his pain tolerance far exceeds Kakashi based on that. Deidara was casually hanging around with 2 of his arms missing. Did you see Shisui when he plucked his eye out and handed it over to Itachi ? Lol.
> 
> ...


 we have killer bee screaming in pain from Amaterasu as you love to mention 
A suffers the same pain and doesn't flinch


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> we have killer bee screaming in pain from Amaterasu as you love to mention
> A suffers the same pain and doesn't flinch



Kirabi is irrelevant, though. You can assume he is a pussy if that'll make you feel better.
I've shown you examples of 2 other shinobi remaining calm and collected in the face of similar or worse(Sasuke was screaming like a bitch when Itachi plucked his eye out but Shisui stood there like a boss) injuries. What A did wasn't exclusive to him.

A is physically much more durable than B and most of enton was initially on his wristband and some of his hand, but it probably had to go through his raiton armor and shit. His hand seemed intact after it was cut off. A may have more pain tolerance than most characters out there, but if you read the databook description of Tsukiyomi it inflicts mental damage, and it says physical durability has absolutely no bearing over it :


> Even a body made of iron or the speed of light are powerless before this jutsu, which is the reason why it is feared as the most powerful.



Anyways, like I said. This is not even an argument, as we know Kakashi went through 72 hours of torture to get to that state and he was comatosed for a week right after.

Madara's genjutsu is dispelled casually and A was fine.


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