# Is healthy Kimimaro kage level?



## Matty (Mar 18, 2016)

Area: Gaara vs Kimimaro
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 20 Meters
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: None

*Opponents*

Chiyo

Hidan

Old Hiruzen

Darui

Mifune

*Question:* Is a healthy Kimimaro a kage level fighter? Who can he beat and who can he not beat


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## fyhb (Mar 18, 2016)

HIdan can kill him 50/50 if he can get his Blood! 

Chiyo is fulyl capable of killing him,shen eed jsut a Scratch to get her Poison in his Blood and he is done for!

Old HIruzen is tough one,kinda lacks the feats but he is considered a Taijutsu  Expert and with Kognonyu(Enma Staff)  I dare to say he can break his bones and beat him eventually if he can evade his attacks!

Darui,hmmm tough one,Darui has Kekkei Genkai plus Blakc Lightning and great Kenjutsu Skills with Enhanced raiton Sword he most probablyt wil lbe able to cut Kimi down.

MIgune similar chances as Darui but probably lesser,he doesnt have any Speed Feats( I mean Movement of the Body not Sword Pulling) and Taijutsu too,so from all I belive Kimi can beat only him!

Basically Kimi is probaly very Low Kage LEvel or Elite Jounin Level,heck I think Asuma can beat him too with MId to High Diff!


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## Elvis Hitler (Mar 18, 2016)

Kimimaro was a prodigy at a young age, he never got the chance to fully develop. He could go the distance with most experienced jounin, but I don't think he was quite at Kage level yet.


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## Saru (Mar 18, 2016)

*Chiyo:* This match could go either way IMO, but I'd side with Chiyo due to her only needing to get a scratch of Kimimaro to win and having more experience (e.g. a war, fights with Uchiha, and fighting with Hanzo) and offensive versatility with Chikamatsu's Ten Puppets (e.g. Three Treasure Suction Crush, chakra strings, etc.). They're very evenly matched, though.

*Hidan:* Hidan would get skewered by Sawarabi no Mai (Bone Forest) provided that Kimimaro had knowledge, and even without knowledge, his chances against Hidan would look decent. I would favor Kimimaro if he has knowledge and consider it a toss up if Kimimaro has no knowledge--leaning towards Hidan.

*Old Hiruzen:* Hiruzen would beat him without any trouble. Enma should smash Kimimaro's bones and can extend in Adamantine Staff Form, so Hiruzen can smash Kimi at longer ranges as well. Kimimaro has absolutely no counters for Hiruzen's Goton either.

*Darui:* This one is close but I'd side with Darui. He has pretty good speed feats, a superior long-range and mid-range arsenal, and he should be skilled enough to keep up with Kimimaro in CQC to a certain extent using Raiton flow.

*Mifune:* Mifune would probably win. Mifune was portrayed to be, at a minimum, as strong as Darui for his assignment as a Division Leader in the War Arc, and even stronger than Darui given the fact that he clashed with Hanzo in his youth and earned his praise. The same Hanzo who praised, defeated, and bestowed titles upon the Legendary Sannin. Mifune is an Upper Jonin or Lower Kage-level fighter at a bare minimum. Kimimaro is a poor match up for him, though, because he lacks the offense I think would be necessary to pierce Kimimaro's defense straight up, and he's pretty one-dimensional featwise. I would still side with Mifune because of his portrayal and experience, though.


***​


> *Question:* Is a healthy Kimimaro a kage level fighter? Who can he beat and who can he not beat




Definitely not IMO. When you think about what the bare minimum requirements for a Kage should be, all Kage should be capable of wrestling with or taking down bijuu. I do not see Kimimaro taking down a single bijuu with his Forest of Bones (although to be fair, I don't see Mifune taking down a bijuu either, but he's a unique case since he doesn't use ninjutsu, and he trained to fight samurai and other ninja--not bijuu--with his Iaido).

If I had to put Kimimaro into a Tier List of sorts:



*Spoiler*: __ 





*Lower Kage:*

Sasori
Kisame / Konan
Yagura
Sasuke (Hebi)
Jiraiya (Base)
Deidara
Gaara
Kakashi (3-TS)
Kakuzu
Mei
Rasa
Naruto (Immortals Arc)
Mifune

--

*Upper Jonin:*

Kushina
Karin
Darui
Choji
Chiyo 
*Kimimaro*
Lee
Shikamaru
Yamato
Suigetsu
Juugo
Hidan
Others

--

*Lower Jonin*




Kimimaro is an upper Jonin at best, although I guess you could make the case for him being at the Kage-level.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 18, 2016)

By hype: absolutely.

By feats: absolutely (relative to part one no less!)


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## Bonly (Mar 18, 2016)

Yeah I'd say he's Low Kage lvl with his feats and hype he got while sick, as for who he beats I'd say he has a 50/50 shot against otherwise the rest should beat him more times then not


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## Nikushimi (Mar 18, 2016)

Matty said:


> Chiyo



Chiyo dices him with her 10 Chikamatsu Puppets. She doesn't even need to use her chakra seal, but has the option to one-shot with it.



> Hidan



Kimi gets scratched, has his blood tasted, and dies via ritual impalement.



> Old Hiruzen



Hiruzen traps Kimi in an Enma staff prison and bakes him from five directions with a clone-team Katon.



> Darui



Tough fight, but Darui pulls it off thanks to normal and black Raiton that he can use to electrocute and incapacitate Kimimaro without having to overcome his skeletal durability through cutting or blunt-force. He has the speed to survive on the ground with a pissed-off V2 Kinkaku; Kimi is pretty tame by comparison, and Darui's got good enough range to keep up the pressure without exposing himself to Kimi's bone attacks.



> Mifune



Mifune turns Kimimaro into cold cuts.



> *Question:* Is a healthy Kimimaro a kage level fighter?



Not even close.

Elite Jonin, maybe. He can challenge guys like Asuma and Darui but I wouldn't bet on him in either of those fights.

Mei is arguably the weakest Kage and she would shove a dildo up Kimi's ass like either of her little fairy boy Kage summit bodyguards.


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## Saru (Mar 18, 2016)

When exactly was Kimimaro hyped to be Kage-level?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> When exactly was Kimimaro hyped to be Kage-level?





Kabuto had been well-defined as "Elite Jonin" like Kakashi, the highest class of sub-Kage ninja. He is clearly elevating Kimimaro beyond his own level as a servant of Orochimaru, and thus considers Kimimaro Kage level.

Furthermore, Orochimaru said his  when thinking about Kimimaro's descent into sickness. Orochimaru was established to be a very DGAF kind of ninja, but he took Kimimaro's deterioration as a huge loss.

Additionally, Kimimaro is  to Hebi Sasuke several times by Jugo. Full CS2 Jugo is also someone I'd consider "Elite Jonin," and he said that Kimimaro was the only one who could control him while rampaging.

And finally, when remembering to read the manga through a p1 lens only, Kimimaro's ninjutsu was simply enormous. Far, far larger than Hiruzen or any of the Hokage's shown jutsu. And he was a bone-forest _logia_ too.


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## Ersa (Mar 19, 2016)

Depends.

What is the step above an Elite Jounin like P1 Kakashi? Cause by manga canon a healthy Kimimaro is far and beyond him and Kabuto. Either bottom of Kage level or absolute peak "Jounin" level.


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## Saru (Mar 19, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kabuto had been well-defined as "Elite Jonin" like Kakashi, the highest class of sub-Kage ninja. He is clearly elevating Kimimaro beyond his own level as a servant of Orochimaru, and thus considers Kimimaro Kage level.
> 
> Furthermore, Orochimaru said his  when thinking about Kimimaro's descent into sickness. Orochimaru was established to be a very DGAF kind of ninja, but he took Kimimaro's deterioration as a huge loss.
> 
> ...




Kabuto is not referencing a Kage in those panels. He's giving extremely ambiguous hype about what _he believes_ Kimimaro's potential is, and he was also trying to comfort Orochimaru (who had chastised Kabuto for trying to comfort him in that same conversation). Now, this is important, because hype from Kabuto is not the same as hype from, say, Orochimaru. Kabuto was a Jonin. He did not have a familiarity with the power of any Kage-level ninja aside from Orochimaru--who he idolized--and Kabuto himself was _well_ below the Kage level at that point. Itachi is someone that Kabuto knows of, but he is obviously not included in Kabuto's statement, and that makes sense because Kabuto is Jonin who doesn't know the power of Itachi firsthand.

Of course Orochimaru took Kimimaro's terminal illness as a major loss. Orochimaru's intention was to find a body strong enough to master Sage Mode and become strong enough to be unopposed by even Itachi, so a major setback like Kimimaro's terminal illness would be deeply frustrating to him. That alone is not an indication of Kimimaro himself being a Kage-level shinobi.

Jugo is also upper Jonin level, so being Kimimaro being able to put him down is not proof of him being Kage-level. The Sound Four were pushed to use their Cursed Seals by Tokubetsu Jonin, so defeating them is certainly not evidence Kimimaro that was on the Kage level either.

Bone Forest pales in comparison Hiruzen's Goton, and Hiruzen was not trying to use such force when fight Orochimaru in Part 1. I do in fact believe that Hiruzen was capable of such feats as his Goton feat during Part 1, but using big flashy jutsu would not have helped Hiruzen to stop Edo Tensei. Hiruzen uses an analytical fighting style that employs minimalist tactics to gather information on his opponent, and that's exactly what he did in his fight against Orochimaru. Using Part 1 spectacles to compare Hiruzen to Kimimaro doesn't make sense, because Hiruzen's showing in Part 1 was circumstantial due to the Edo Tensei being summoned, and I would _still_ say that Hiruzen's performance against Orochimaru is more impressive than Kimimaro's bone logia abilities. He outplayed Orochimaru in CQC using Enma, then used Kage Bunshin *in tandem with* Shiki Fujin in order to seal away Edo Tensei Shodai Hokage and Nidaime Hokage *while blind*. I don't even know how splitting one's soul up with Kage Bunshin is possible, but Hiruzen was able to do it under the worst of circumstances and defeat a full-power Orochimaru--someone far above the likes of Gaara, Kimimaro, or Kabuto.

So, I don't think there's enough evidence to suggest that Kimimaro is on the Kage level. And again, I don't see Kimimaro being capable of engaging in a power struggle with a bijuu either. That is the bare minimum requirement of a Kage IMO, because they had to quell the rampages of the bijuu whenever those types of situations came about. Do you see Rasa losing to Kimimaro? Rasa is stronger than SRA Gaara, who was almost killed by Kimimaro, and Rasa is one of the weakest Kage based on showings and comparison of portrayal. However, even Rasa was able to silence Shukaku with his Gold Dust whenever it went on a rampage.​


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## ~M~ (Mar 19, 2016)

Perhaps before the power inflation of the war arc he would scrape by into bottom kage. But he's solidly in top jonin only. He has relatively low destructive and durability capabilities.


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## Yoko (Mar 19, 2016)

The guy has early PII Kakashi level speed, a top tier, unpredictable Taijutsu style, nigh unbreakable bones, regenerative abilities to fall back upon if his durability is ever breached, and has Senjutsu transformations to further augment all the above.  Unlike most CQC fighters, he is effective at all ranges (thanks to finger bullets) and has a nigh undodgeable AOE attack in Bone Forest.  He's easily Kage level if people like Tsunade and P1 Hiruzen qualify.  

Then we've got multiple quotes over about a dozen chapters dedicated solely to hyping Kimimaro, such as:


Orochimaru: "There is no 'if' once Kimimaro is there", despite knowing that Konoha could very well have sent people like Guy or Kakashi to retrieve the only Sharingan-user in the world rather than a bunch of Genin.


Kabuto: "If he was not tainted by illness, the Hokage assassination would have went smoothly."


Kabuto: "There is nobody that could beat Kimimaro."


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## Seraphiel (Mar 19, 2016)

Nah, he would be weaker than start of Part 2 Sasuke


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## ~M~ (Mar 19, 2016)

> Kabuto: "There is nobody that could beat Kimimaro."


Just a phrase. He didn't mean it literally. 

Tsunade is leaps above his regenerative powers and especially his destructive powers she low difficults him. 

Old Hiruzen took on 2 hokage and orochimaru. He's not losing to kimimaro


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## Yoko (Mar 19, 2016)

He could compete with him in all areas outside of Genjutsu.  And anyway, there is no shame in that as I'd rank PII Sasuke on the lower end of mid-Kage level.



~M~ said:


> Just a phrase. He didn't mean it literally.



Falls in line with everything we've seen from Konoha ninja up until that point.  As a reader, the only people that I'd rank in P1 above Kimimaro is Itachi and Orochimaru. 



> Tsunade is leaps above his regenerative powers and especially his destructive powers she low difficults him.



The guy regularly extrudes bones out of his torso, regrows bone tissue, and closes flesh wounds in seconds.  Nothing Tsunade had shown in P1 came close to this until Byakugo.


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## Amol (Mar 19, 2016)

He would lose to Asuma so no he is not on a kage level.
He is however the the most overrated side side side side side character.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 19, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kabuto is not referencing a Kage in those panels. He's giving extremely ambiguous hype about what _he believes_ Kimimaro's potential is



It's not about potential, and isn't ambiguous... He's talking about sick Kimimaro presently going to Konoha to insure the mission success. Kimimaro _potential_, in Orochimaru's mind, was greater than Sasuke's own (as a vessel.)



Saru said:


> Kabuto was a Jonin. He did not have a familiarity with the power of any Kage-level ninja aside from Orochimaru--who he idolized--and Kabuto himself was _well_ below the Kage level at that point.



I don't believe this to be true. Kabuto was stated to be equal to one of Konoha's most powerful and famous Jonin. He also handled Tsunade calmly, so I doubt he didn't have a solid understanding of the level.



Saru said:


> Itachi is someone that Kabuto knows of, but he is obviously not included in Kabuto's statement, and that makes sense because Kabuto is Jonin who doesn't know the power of Itachi firsthand.



His statement doesn't have to be about Itachi, as its context is in Kimimaro going to Konoha. Nobody in Konoha can stop him, according to Kabuto. And Kabuto would know, because he just left the invasion of Konoha.



Saru said:


> Jugo is also upper Jonin level, so being Kimimaro being able to put him down is not proof of him being Kage-level.



Not put him down, but easily subdue him. Jugo also constantly compared him to Hebi Sasuke, putting neither above the other. 

Plus think about Healthy Kimimaro. Physically enhanced, and a fused ambusher in an ever-sprouting bone forest. Something Itachi and Sasuke used Susano'o to defend against (and a smaller version at that.)

I believe that shunshin is not a valid answer to escape that technique unless it's by top tier speedsters. Everybody else needs an armor technique, or a flying technique. 

If not, they get run through with bones and quickly finished off by a fused-Kimimaro. Without his sickness, he'd be a complete beast, generating forest of spears and traveling through them for finishing blows. 



Saru said:


> The Sound Four were pushed to use their Cursed Seals by Tokubetsu Jonin, so defeating them is certainly not evidence Kimimaro that was on the Kage level either.



They didn't hold back, but they easily defeated the two ninja they believed to be Jonin quickly. Shizune, a Jonin that knew Tsunade, said it was impossible for them to have been defeated so quickly and easily.



Saru said:


> I do in fact believe that Hiruzen was capable of such feats as his Goton feat during Part 1, but using big flashy jutsu would not have helped Hiruzen to stop Edo Tensei.



I don't think so. The ANBU noticed that just making two Kage Bunshin was hugely taxing for Hiruzen. So making 4 and spamming enormous jutsu is not something Old Hiruzen would do (and keep his life.)



Saru said:


> That is the bare minimum requirement of a Kage IMO, because they had to quell the rampages of the bijuu whenever those types of situations came about. Do you see Rasa losing to Kimimaro? Rasa is stronger than SRA Gaara, who was almost killed by Kimimaro, and Rasa is one of the weakest Kage based on showings and comparison of portrayal. However, even Rasa was able to silence Shukaku with his Gold Dust whenever it went on a rampage.



Rasa's feats are broken. He claps his hands and summons the equivalent of a mini metallic desert, then behaves like Gaara in the desert. His power isn't reliant on location or time like Gaara's, even if Gaara handles him in the desert.



Yoko said:


> The guy has early PII Kakashi level speed, a top tier, unpredictable Taijutsu style, nigh unbreakable bones, regenerative abilities to fall back upon if his durability is ever breached, and has Senjutsu transformations to further augment all the above.  Unlike most CQC fighters, he is effective at all ranges (thanks to finger bullets) and has a nigh undodgeable AOE attack in Bone Forest.  He's easily Kage level if people like Tsunade and P1 Hiruzen qualify.
> 
> Then we've got multiple quotes over about a dozen chapters dedicated solely to hyping Kimimaro, such as:
> 
> ...



I forgot about the "There's no 'if' for Kimimaro" from Orochimaru.


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## fyhb (Mar 19, 2016)

I alwasy wondered about Genma and Raido VS Sound Four! Lol Genma and Raido must be quite a Challenge!


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## Sadgoob (Mar 19, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I alwasy wondered about Genma and Raido VS Sound Four! Lol Genma and Raido must be quite a Challenge!



They were picked out of Konoha's force of 10,000 to be the Hokage's Elite Bodyguards (a tiny group of ninja.) So there's definitely room to consider that they are not your ordinary Tokubetsu Jonin. 

Not anymore than Itachi was your ordinary ANBU, War Lee was your ordinary Chunin, Naruto was your ordinary Genin, etc.


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## A Optimistic (Mar 19, 2016)

Kimimaro is jounin level.


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2016)

He is Jonin level at absolute best. Not sure why he is so overrated.


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## fyhb (Mar 19, 2016)

For once I agree with Hussain,Kimi is Elite Jounin Level at his Best. But for some reason some people consider him Stronger than Mei while Hidan can beat him...


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## Big Mom (Mar 19, 2016)

Didn't the chakra enhanced swords from fodder Samurai slice through Kimimaro's bone?


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## Icegaze (Mar 19, 2016)

@poster above no it did not 

And no I don't believe Kimi is kage level 

War arc put things into perspective . He is abit stronger than the konoha 10 war arc level for example 

He is no more a kage than neji is for example 

Though due to poor plot the likes of Kimi and neji abilities were massively under highlighted . From an ability point of view though both should be kage level


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## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kabuto had been well-defined as "Elite Jonin" like Kakashi, the highest class of sub-Kage ninja. He is clearly elevating Kimimaro beyond his own level as a servant of Orochimaru, and thus considers Kimimaro Kage level.



Kabuto can eat a dick. There are plenty of shinobi who can beat Kimimaro, if not Kabuto himself at that point due to the fact that he sucked eggs at Taijutsu. The two weakest Kage, Mei and Hiruzen, would have little difficulty dispatching Kimimaro.



> Furthermore, Orochimaru said his  when thinking about Kimimaro's descent into sickness. Orochimaru was established to be a very DGAF kind of ninja, but he took Kimimaro's deterioration as a huge loss.



Kimimaro is quite evidently another descendent of Kaguya (hence the clan name and bone powers). Given Orochimaru's pursuit of anything related to her bloodline (Sharingan, Senju DNA, Senjutsu, Rinnegan, etc.), it's not unusual that Kimi would be on a pedestal--not because of his strength, but because of his body, which Orochimaru wanted as his own vessel.



> Additionally, Kimimaro is  to Hebi Sasuke several times by Jugo. Full CS2 Jugo is also someone I'd consider "Elite Jonin," and he said that Kimimaro was the only one who could control him while rampaging.



The difference being that Hebi Sasuke could quite literally control Jugo while bedridden, using basic Sharingan Genjutsu, whereas we don't know if Kimi did it entirely by force or simply by virtue of having a good personal relationship with Jugo and being able to calm him down.



> And finally, when remembering to read the manga through a p1 lens only, Kimimaro's ninjutsu was simply enormous. Far, far larger than Hiruzen or any of the Hokage's shown jutsu. And he was a bone-forest _logia_ too.



Zabuza and Kakashi also displayed Ninjutsu on a greater scale than the Hokage in part 1. Jirobo, too.



Yoko said:


> The guy has early PII Kakashi level speed, a top tier, unpredictable Taijutsu style, nigh unbreakable bones, regenerative abilities to fall back upon if his durability is ever breached, and has Senjutsu transformations to further augment all the above.  Unlike most CQC fighters, he is effective at all ranges (thanks to finger bullets) and has a nigh undodgeable AOE attack in Bone Forest.  He's easily Kage level if people like Tsunade and P1 Hiruzen qualify.



But Tsunade and Hiruzen would dismantle Kimimaro easily, and why specify "part 1" Hiruzen if you're going to acknowledge Senjutsu and the implications of it?


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## Yoko (Mar 19, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> But Tsunade and Hiruzen would dismantle Kimimaro easily,



No, they wouldn't.  At all.



> and why specify "part 1" Hiruzen if you're going to acknowledge Senjutsu and the implications of it?



Because we're comparing apples to apples here.  All of Kimimaro's feats were limited to Part 1.  Like Strategos said, "Part 1 lenses."


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2016)

People seriously think aside, irrelevant fodder will defeat a Kage when he was barely holding his own against Genin? 

of well, I guess there are many things to discover in the world...


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## Yoko (Mar 19, 2016)

War Arc Naruto is a Genin.


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## Trojan (Mar 19, 2016)

And I am pretty sure Kishi believe that Part 1 Lee and Gaara are equal to War Arc Narudo. I mean we all know that they are also
MCs, right?


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## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2016)

Yoko said:


> No, they wouldn't.  At all.



Yes they would, Tsunade onepunches him like Saitama and Hiruzen bakes Kimi like a Shrinky Dink in an oven made from Enma Staff prison and five-way clone Katon spam.



> Because we're comparing apples to apples here.  All of Kimimaro's feats were limited to Part 1.  Like Strategos said, "Part 1 lenses."



Then why bring up Senjutsu, which never gets so much as a name until late in part 2?


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## ~M~ (Mar 19, 2016)

Kimimaro healthy is probably war arc lee tier. Now, is war arc lee kage tier? Come on. 

He's really not that special if you think about his abilities it's merely physical piercing damage spam which has little aerial presence, and decent durability, that fails desperately against the speed, durability, and mechanics of all the more powerful ninja we know.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes they would, Tsunade onepunches him like Saitama



Kimimaro would just sprout a bone-tip into her fist.



Nikushimi said:


> and Hiruzen bakes Kimi like a Shrinky Dink in an oven made from Enma Staff prison and five-way clone Katon spam.



Hiruzen's going to attack his own summon? Kimimaro can fuse with a mass of bone and be fine. Pretty sure Kimimaro can casually rip apart Enma clones trying to stick together with CS2 strength anyway.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

How does hidden mist help against bone forest though ? Just curious it makes it more difficult than the bones are already to avoid

Mei also doesn't achieve saru miminum requirement of subduing a bijuu 

She dies to every single bijuu very very very very easily

Lastly bone forest can be used in base which makes it a lot more likely to be used off the bat so it does improve people basic standing of him or rather it should 

What CS2 does is allowing him to fuse with his bones


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## shade0180 (Mar 20, 2016)

Hiruzen would Flatten Kimi with his Bo staff.

Mei would rape Kimi with her acid Mist.





> Mei also doesn't achieve saru miminum requirement of subduing a bijuu



She can with acid Mist considering it was strong enough to melt Susanoo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 20, 2016)

Not even remotely close to kage level .

People on the list massacre him and I don't consider Darui or Mifune kage level. Hidan and Hiruzen are at the bottom of the barrel.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

@shade



Mei is shit tier to a bijuu. Kimi bone forest actually stands a better chance of damaging a bijuu based on scale 

Vs Mei mini Lack of AoE techs


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## Richard Lionheart (Mar 20, 2016)

High Jonin sounds pretty fair to me. The hype is not sustainable in my humble opinion.


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## shade0180 (Mar 20, 2016)

> Vs Mei mini Lack of AoE techs



Practically every arsenal Mei has is AoE..

Lava field, Acid mist.. that Same Mist Jutsu as Zabuza.


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## Turrin (Mar 20, 2016)

Matty said:


> Chiyo


It's debatable whether Old-Chiyo is Kage-level or not, but if she was it would be due primarily to her support capabilities and ability to bring the dead back to life w/ her Kinjutsu.

As far as her versus Kimi, she defeats him w/ poison or Fuuinjutsu.



> Hidan


Hidan isn't Kage-level, all the Kages would own him on their home turf (and probably even off it). 

Hidan defeats Kimi though w/ his ritual.



> Old Hiruzen


Old Hiruzen rapes Kimi.



> Darui


Darui isn't Kage-"level" in Canon, but he beats Kimi w/ Ranton and Kurokaminari anyway.



> Mifune


Debatable whether Mfiune is Kage level. But he beats Kimi w/ IAI Jutsu.

--------
Kimi isn't Kage-level, he was nearly defeated by SRA-Gaara whose Chunin level. Yes w/o illness he's stronger, but illness is not dropping him down that much, he's probably around the level of a 7 Mist Swordsmen at best w/o illness like Zabuza.


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How does hidden mist help against bone forest though ? Just curious it makes it more difficult than the bones are already to avoid
> 
> Mei also doesn't achieve saru miminum requirement of subduing a bijuu
> 
> ...




I respectfully disagree. The weakest bijuu, Shukaku, is one that I think Mei would be capable of subduing  with her powerful ninjutsu long enough to seal him. Subduing a bijuu is a lot easier than defeating a bijuu. Gai subdued Saiken momentarily with Asakujaku, for example.

Yeah... Hidden Mist is probably not the go-to option against Kimi, but my point was that Mei has the more threatening arsenal overall. Literally every thread that Kimimaro is in, Sawarabi no Mai is essentially what every match comes down to, because the rest of Kimimaro's arsenal (Finger Bullets? Spinal Cord Whip? Spear that can't even be thrown and shatters apart when striking SRA Gaara's sand... ?) is nothing to write home about. Not in comparison to the other Kage-level ninja, at least.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

What powerful ninjutsu . You got me really confused . Shukaku in scale dwarfs her techniques . She will have no impact on a sand demon . 

Honestly go through the manga . Mei is a non factor against Shukaku. I would honestly say he would kill a squad of mei's

Yh the rest of Kimi Arsenal is clearly very jounin level . Dance 1-4  is rather basic

I would put Kimi on the same level as hiashi. So depending on the situation and the scale of their attacks they could look like kage level but it's not their normal fighting ability if that makes sense 

Both would dominate some kage level in cqc however their ability to keep it in their preferred range is non existent against any kage level


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah... Hidden Mist is probably not the go-to option against Kimi, but my point was that Mei has the more threatening arsenal overall. Literally every thread that Kimimaro is in, Sawarabi no Mai is essentially what every match comes down to, because the rest of Kimimaro's arsenal (Finger Bullets? Spinal Cord Whip? Spear that can't even be thrown and shatters apart when striking SRA Gaara's sand... ?) is nothing to write home about. Not in comparison to the other Kage-level ninja, at least.​



Kimimaro's resilience is comparable to Tsunade's own. He has her regeneration, but with bone armor to boot. His taijutsu mastery is comparable, and his speed is better according to the databook (even without CS.)

His ultimate offense is nothing to sneeze at. He's basically comparable to Suigetsu fused with a lake (used against Bee,) except Kimimaro's "lake" is a forest of sprouting bones and he's stealthier in traveling through them.

A healthy Kimimaro sprouting a forest of bones and traveling through them for stealthy finishers is something that is above the class of elite Jonin, _especially_ in the context of part one scaling (everyone is weaker) in which it was shown.

Kabuto _and_ Orochimaru showing _absolute_ confidence in Kimimaro being unstoppable to Konoha in retrieving Sasuke is likewise above the class of Jonin, as they're both aware Konoha has plenty of Jonin.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kimimaro's resilience is comparable to Tsunade's own. He has her regeneration, but with bone armor to boot. His taijutsu mastery is comparable, and his speed is better according to the databook (even without CS.)
> 
> His ultimate offense is nothing to sneeze at. He's basically comparable to Suigetsu fused with a lake (used against Bee,) except Kimimaro's "lake" is a forest of sprouting bones and he's stealthier in traveling through them.
> 
> ...



But doesn't the fact that his best move is comparable to tate eboshi( suigetsu move ) weaken your argument for an increase in what people believe his level to be 

Lord knows suigetsu is no where close to kage level 

Outside of bone forest and Tate eboshi, their other techniques are simply too weak to cause any problems for a kage 

This is emphasised by the fact that most times in BD those are the only 2 techniques mentioned 

Hiashi, suigetsu and Kimi are all on the same level . All can operate on large scales but it's actually quite limited


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lord knows Suigetsu is nowhere close to Kage level



My only point is that once a logia is fused in an entire environment, he becomes far more dangerous and resilient. And in Kimimaro's case, we saw Itachi and Sasuke resort to Susano'o against the bloodline's ultimate jutsu.



Icegaze said:


> Outside of bone forest and Tate eboshi, their other techniques are simply too weak to cause any problems for a kage



The same is true for many high levels. They have one jutsu that's especially difficult to deal with, and without it, their power declines drastically, left only with exceptional base abilities.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> My only point is that once a logia is fused in an entire environment, he becomes far more dangerous and resilient. And in Kimimaro's case, we saw Itachi and Sasuke resort to Susano'o against the bloodline's ultimate jutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> The same is true for many high levels. They have one jutsu that's especially difficult to deal with, and without it, their power declines drastically, left only with exceptional base abilities.



Fair enough. I guess am not sure how to phrase it . 

Bone forest isn't that hard to deal with . Considering even Mei can just melt the ground around her . Preventing the bones from actually coming up under her


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

My main problem with the people in this thread is they're using part two scaling to push Kimimaro down, because Kimimaro didn't get a fight in part two. The author didn't use DBZ-like elemental blasts to show power. In part one, a relatively small sourcless suiton was called Hokage level. 

If you stick to part one scaling, Kimimaro outshines (or is comparable) to Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hashirama, Tsunade, etc. and his generous hype from Orochimaru and Kabuto about being unstoppable to Konoha ninjas makes sense. His physical abilities and ninjutsu were top of the line.

Compare him to part one Elite Jonin: Kabuto, Kakashi, Gai, Zabuza, etc. and unless you make an imaginary speed gap, of which there was none if you read the manga or databook concerning Drunk Lee, then he clearly outshines all of them in feats and hype (from Kabuto, Orochimaru) quite easily.



> Picture 2: He does not use the Shikotsumyaku alone. His body ability and evasion also, everything is "the strongest."





> The reason Orochimaru desired Kimimaro is solely because of the "strongest" battle ability flowing in his blood. The bloodline limit, Shikotsumyaku. It implements a perfect attack and flawless
> defense, that is like the power of a god or a demon. And now that the disease has cut him off, with that power...Kimimaro fights.



Additionally, people use "Genin Lee," as an argument, and ignore that both the manga and databook say that the same Drunk Lee was too much for Gai to handle. Base sick Kimimaro without his bloodline is essentially base Gai as far as taijutsu mastery goes. Healthy Kimimaro would be even stronger. 



> Just what's with those drunken frenzies even Guy can't handle?! The usually well-spoken Lee charges with the destructive power of an explosion!!



And Gaara was clearly at the (part one scaling) Kage level, which is why he was named Kazekage shortly after with his father's death. His defense was able to stave off someone equal to Base Gai, superior with CS, and the size and utility of his ninjutsu was certainly part one Kage level.

So yeah, if you use Edo Hiruzen after the manga's power creep had gotten out of control and we have random fodder Chunin doing sourcless Suiton 10x larger than the one Tobirama used that was "Hokage level!" then sure, he has the edge. But if you look at part 1 in its own context, then he does not.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> My main problem with the people in this thread is they're using part two scaling to push Kimimaro down, because Kimimaro didn't get a fight in part two. The author didn't use DBZ-like elemental blasts to show power. In part one, a relatively small sourcless suiton was called Hokage level.
> 
> If you stick to part one scaling, Kimimaro outshines (or is comparable) to Hiruzen, Tobirama, Hashirama, Tsunade, etc. and his generous hype from Orochimaru and Kabuto about being unstoppable to Konoha ninjas makes sense. His physical abilities and ninjutsu were top of the line.
> 
> ...



I get you . Part 1 characters were let down by scale up lift in part 2 . You are right in what you are saying 

However , Kimi techniques also did not get the hype to highlight them as something dangerous by part 2 standards 

Kabuto was actually a hype tool for the sound 5 if you noticed . He showed how each of their techniques can be handled by kage level when fighting the uchiha Bros . 

Tayuya genjutsu was the most dangerous thing there . The rest was dealt with with simplicity 

So Kimi did have feats in part 2 and those feats only made him seem weaker than what he showed in part 1


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## Bringer (Mar 20, 2016)

I consider Kimmi low kage after power inflation. *Part 1 Haku went from being outdone by Sasuke in close quarters to blocking a kick from Lee and Gai at the same time in part 2. * 

So yeah he's there next to

Rasa
Chiyo
Mifune
Hidan


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> However , Kimi techniques also did not get the hype to highlight them as something dangerous by part 2 standards



Well, Itachi and Sasuke immediately used Susano'o to defend against a much smaller Sawarabi no Mai than the one Sick part one Kimimaro used.



Icegaze said:


> Tayuya genjutsu was the most dangerous thing there . The rest was dealt with with simplicity



Susano'o was needed for Kimimaro's bone forest, and Amaterasu was needed for Kidomaru's web. I wouldn't really call that simplicity. Especially because Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke are each worth 2 Kages, maybe 3.


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kimimaro's resilience is comparable to Tsunade's own. He has her regeneration, but with bone armor to boot. His taijutsu mastery is comparable, and his speed is better according to the databook (even without CS.)
> 
> His ultimate offense is nothing to sneeze at. He's basically comparable to Suigetsu fused with a lake (used against Bee,) except Kimimaro's "lake" is a forest of sprouting bones and he's stealthier in traveling through them.
> 
> ...




Kimimaro was not shown to have Tsunade's regenerative capabilities, so I don't know what you mean by that. His Dead Bone Pulse allows him to manipulate and multiply the accumulation of *bone mass* in his body. He has not been suggested or even implied to be capable of regenerating internal organs (which are _beneath_ layers of bone) like Tsunade can, and he hasn't been shown to have her superficial regenerative capabilities (i.e. healing from burns) either. If you want to argue that Kimimaro is more durable than Tsunade, than that argument can be made, but he has not been shown to recover from lethal injury in the same way that she can. If Kimimaro merged with his forest of bones and was then sliced in half by Sasuke's Chidorigatari while still in that form, there is nothing to suggest that he would be able to recover from such an injury.

_*Karin*_ is comparable to Tsunade in terms of regeneration and resilience. Kimimaro simply has strong bones (i.e. durability). Karin also has a form of offense *far* more deadly than Kimimaro's Sawarabi no Mai, and I don't believe that she's a candidate for Hokage either. That said, I do believe that Karin is towards the peak of Jonin level (and I actually believe that Karin sets the bar for that class of ninja aside from perhaps Yugito Nii or Kushina, personally) much like Kimimaro, and that is about as good as it gets. Kimimaro's Sawarabi no Mai doesn't make Kimimaro a Kage-level fighter any more than Karin's Uzumaki Chains make Karin Kage-level. (As an aside, where do you think Karin stands, assuming that she can control the Uzumaki Chains at will?)

There is nothing to suggest that Sawarabi no Mai is something that can be used casually either, and Kimimaro in fact died after using it. That could be part of the reason why he used it as a last resort. There's risk in using a technique that requires a lot of chakra and then being placed in a bad spot if the opponent survives or is able to somehow easily bounce back (like Gaara floating higher with his sand cloud, for example). Also, as Icegaze pointed out, being stronger than Suigetsu does not sufficiently strengthen your argument because he is also below the Kage level.

Konoha's Jonin _*weren't even around*_.



Orochimaru struck when Konoha was most vulnerable.

I disagree with you entirely on Hiruzen or Tsunade being even remotely comparable to Kimimaro. As I've stated, Hiruzen was not trying to go balls-to-the-wall with his offense because he was fighting undying bodies with infinitely replenishing chakra. Tsunade's performance after regaining the Will of Fire dumped all over what Kimimaro was able to accomplish, and that was when she was rusty and portrayed to be on the same level as drugged Jiraiya and gimped Orochimaru due to being out of shape and lacking resolve.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Well, Itachi and Sasuke immediately used Susano'o to defend against a much smaller Sawarabi no Mai than the one Sick part one Kimimaro used.
> 
> 
> 
> Susano'o was needed for Kimimaro's bone forest, and Amaterasu was needed for Kidomaru's web. I wouldn't really call that simplicity. Especially because Edo Itachi and EMS Sasuke are each worth 2 Kages, maybe 3.



But any kage in their situation would have dealt with those techniques really easily 

Onoki - simply rise the floor level he is on 

A- shunshin and say bye bye 

Mei - melt the floor 

Tsunade - haha tank it 

Gaara- levitate again . Or simply use sand defence below his feet if there is no room to levitate 

The uchiha Bros can be worth 10 kages . Won't change the fact that , the tools they used to defeat those techniques was overkill and they did so simply because they could 

By part 1 standards he is kage level . By part 2 , high jounin in league with Jugo, hiashi and the rest 

We going on about Kimi but u Wouldn't call hiashi kage level despite air Palm juubi tail with no visible strain 

Juubi tail is the size of a bijuu already . But he isn't kage level , why would bone forest make Kimi kage level 

Surely u would agree something described as a high speed super fast air canon would be harder to dodge than randomly sprouting bones


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

@saru

Bone forest isn't some last resort though . Kimi can use it in base 

And he merges completely with it in cs2 slicing the bone should not kill him considering he turns himself basically into bone 

Like be breaks his body down and reforms it


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## Yoko (Mar 20, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Yes they would, Tsunade onepunches him like Saitama and Hiruzen bakes Kimi like a Shrinky Dink in an oven made from Enma Staff prison and five-way clone Katon spam.



And Kimimaro shares a speed tier with the likes of early PII Sasuke, easily dodging their linear attempts at hitting him.  A healthy Kimimaro likely won't be impaired by the strain of CS transformations, so add that and he'll easily be running circles around these tier 3.0's.

Hiruzen never made five clones - the most he has made is four.  And even so, four-way clone spam isn't feasible for living Hiruzen.  Something like that will take it's toll and probably end up gassing him out.  And Kimimaro has shown the ability to regenerate bones and to close flesh wounds caused by his bones punching through his skin (and maybe organs), so I'll doubt the efficacy of that.



> Then why bring up Senjutsu, which never gets so much as a name until late in part 2?



Cursed Seal provided a significant physical and chakra-power boost with each transformation, even in Part I.  Me calling it Senjutsu or not calling it Senjutsu doesn't change that.  Learning about Cursed Seal being Senjutsu just gave us an explanation for its origins and why it conveniently gave a similar boost that Sage Mode later gave its users.  It didn't magically make it better or change how it works.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kimimaro was not shown to have Tsunade's regenerative capabilities, so I don't know what you mean by that. His Dead Bone Pulse allows him to manipulate and multiply the accumulation of *bone mass* in his body. He has not been suggested or even implied to be capable of regenerating internal organs (which are _beneath_ layers of bone) like Tsunade can, and he hasn't been shown to have her superficial regenerative capabilities (i.e. healing from burns) either.​




He pulled out his own spine, and we saw Gaara's sand coffin peel the skin from his bones before it regenerated. He regenerates all tissue, not just bone tissue. 



Saru said:


> Kimimaro's Sawarabi no Mai doesn't make Kimimaro a Kage-level fighter any more than Karin's Uzumaki Chains make Karin Kage-level. (As an aside, where do you think Karin stands, assuming that she can control the Uzumaki Chains at will?)



That's an interesting comparison, could you remind me where to find that feat from Karin? I'll get back to you once I review it. But unlike Karin, Kimimaro has pretty superb base skill abilities. He's not a glass canon with one good jutsu.



Saru said:


> There is nothing to suggest that Sawarabi no Mai is something that can be used casually either, and Kimimaro in fact died after using it.



He died from sickess. "His time as up," as was stated. When Kabuto used the jutsu, allowing Kimimaro to exit his body, it didn't seem to be a strain. And it was much smaller, granted, probably reducing any strain.



Saru said:


> being stronger than Suigetsu does not sufficiently strengthen your argument because he is also below the Kage level.



Do you not believe Lake-Suigetsu could present a problem for some Low Kage?



Saru said:


> Konoha's Jonin _*weren't even around*_.



Orochimaru and Kabuto had no way of knowing this. Before hyping Kimimaro, they wondered if Konoha sent "strong ones" that were capable of stopping the Sound 4. But with Kimimaro, they both said there was 0% chance of failure.​


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 20, 2016)

By Part 1 standards Kimimaro was clearly Kage-level, by Part 2 standards he'd be an elite Jonin.


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## Yoko (Mar 20, 2016)

And as per canon, Kakashi ended up chasing after them anyway (albeit it was too late).  Had he arrived a few hours earlier he could very well have been able to get there in time.  So no, there is no way for Orochimaru to have known that Kakashi wouldn't have chased after him.  And no, I don't place P1 Kakashi decisively above Kimimaro.

The core issue here is people underestimating Kimimaro's opponents.  These guys are not Genin or even Chunin level.  Sasuke embarrassed the two Chunin Demon brothers in the first few chapters.  That same Sasuke later attained 2T and was beat down by a weighted Rock Lee.  

Sasuke was stated to be "already at the Chunin level" by Genma based on a very limited showing, and that was without factoring in CS1, CS2, or 3T Sharingan.  KN0 Naruto, which is basically Naruto's "power-up" equivalent of CS1 or 3T Sharingan,  clashed equally with a later version of that Sasuke.

Gaara being Chunin level is flat out laughable.  A weaker version of him beat 5-gate Lee.  He was using sand that was notably harder than his normal sand in that fight thanks to minerals.  He was moving large quantities of sand that by P1 standards was enormous, especially when considering it wasn't in a desert.  He likely became Kazekage soon after as well given Konoha's unwillingness to leave the Kage seat unoccupied.

Once you acknowledge that drunk Rock Lee and KN0 Naruto likely breach low-Jonin level and SRA Gaara likely being on the higher end of the Jonin spectrum, it becomes a lot easier to accept Kimimaro being Kage level, especially a healthy one.  His performance was impaired beyond his premature death - the strain CS2 caused on him (slowed him down) was likely due to his weakening body due to the illness.  The guy just unplugged himself from life support.


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

Yoko said:


> And Kimimaro shares a speed tier with the likes of early PII Sasuke, easily dodging their linear attempts at hitting him.  A healthy Kimimaro likely won't be impaired by the strain of CS transformations, so add that and he'll easily be running circles around these tier 3.0's.




I don't get this train of thought. Having even a tier worth of greater speed does not equate to running circles around an opponent. I believe Part II Kiba had an entire tier-worth of speed advantage over Tsunade (and that's _without_ his Man Beast Transformation), and I don't believe that he would run circles around her in any fashion. If Tsunade can replicate a feat that comes anywhere close to Sakura's Byakuagou-enhanced Okashou, then she can deal with faster characters just fine.

As for Hiruzen, he was able to rush at the *faster* 4.5 Speed Tier Orochimaru and outdo him in CQC with Enma. That was a legitimate exchange. There is absolutely no indication that Orochimaru was toying around either, so no amount of hand-waving will suffice to dillute this feat in my opinion.


*Spoiler*: __ 











As this shows, speed is not the deciding factor of every physical exchange.

Moreover, Hiruzen is not a one-trick pony. He has mini-Buddha-scale Goton which would completely erase Kimimaro's existence, as his durability lacks the feats (or hype) to suggest that he can survive an attack of such scale, and I don't think that "speed" is an answer for that form of offense.

This is just based on my own personal observations, but I feel as though Hiruzen is _extremely_ underestimated in the NBD. The context of his Part I performance goes largely neglected. That goes for Tsunade as well.​


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## Yoko (Mar 20, 2016)

Orochimaru did not have a DB stat in Part I.  He did not get one until around chapter 400.  And even if we assume he had a 4.5 back then, his mindset against Hiruzen is what hindered him.  He stood there the entire fight observing and when he finally found himself partaking in it, he didn't seem prepared.  He wasn't actively leveraging his speed advantage, if he even had one back then.

Kimimaro survived mineral enhanced sand burials when even normal sand burials pasted people into red mush.  His durability can very well allow him to survive, especially in CS2.  The only attacks that may hurt him is the Raiton (and that's if it pierces rather than just electrocutes) and the Futon, and even if they hurt him, they're not "erasing his existence".  Katons have hit less durable characters and caused little damage, Suitons and Dotons are blunt force attacks that won't do anything to a guy made of steel. 

The Goton feat isn't feasible for a living Hiruzen, either.  He can't spam clones and large scale element attacks without the luxury of infinitely regenerating chakra.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2016)

> Kimimaro would just sprout a bone-tip into her fist



The only thing that would achieve for Kimimaro is annoying Tsunade by making her punctured finger or knuckle uncomfortable for a while, because the impetus from Tsunade's hit would still be transferred and result in a shattered Shikotsumyaku, whereas the worst Tsunade would have received would be a difficulty 1 injury the likes of which she could heal in a second without hand-signs using her normal Shosen even in Part 1.

That tactic worked against Lee because Lee doesn't hit hard enough to do much of anything to those bones in the first place, and so stopped his attack to instead raise his arms to guard before he ran into the bones. Tsunade could go ahead, because at her level of power she's still going to annihilate the defense.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The only thing that would achieve for Kimimaro is annoying Tsunade by making her punctured finger or knuckle uncomfortable for a while, because the impetus from Tsunade's hit would still be transferred and result in a shattered Shikotsumyaku, whereas the worst Tsunade would have received would be a difficulty 1 injury the likes of which she could heal in a second without hand-signs using her normal Shosen even in Part 1.
> 
> That tactic worked against Lee because Lee doesn't hit hard enough to do much of anything to those bones in the first place, and so stopped his attack to instead raise his arms to guard before he ran into the bones. Tsunade could go ahead, because at her level of power she's still going to annihilate the defense.



A martial artist that can easy break a stack of bricks isn't going to do so if they have to punch through a knife to get there. The knife essentially turns their own force against them. This is an element of Kimimaro's defense.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I think the strongest person in the world is going to have a bad time if they punch the tip of a knife. It's not distributing the force as they intend, weakening the blow and damaging themselves.



I know. It doesn't change what I said, though.

Kimimaro stated that his bones were as hard as steel at maximal calcification- with someone like Tsunade involved a more apt analogy would be the the strongest person in the world striking a wooden toothpick or plastic spork.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

@sadgoob
Has a point 

She would send Kimi flying but his phone would run through her hand as she does so

The thing is she will heal but Kimi will be more than likely dead


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## Bringer (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> A martial artist that can easy break a stack of bricks isn't going to do so if they have to punch through a knife to get there. The knife essentially turns their own force against them. This is an element of Kimimaro's defense.



If Tsunade decides to use a chakra enhanced punch instead of her own natural strength, then that isn't a problem anymore. 



> Maximal chakra is instantly kneaded inside the body, and all of it is enclosed into the right fist at a moment's notice!! *That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!*



So her fist will punch the bone spike, and the chakra will still transfer.


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## Lord Stark (Mar 20, 2016)

I believe Darui is like the bare bones minimum to be "Kage-level", and he defeats Kimimaro.  So yeah, no Kimimaro is below that.


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> I consider Kimmi low kage after power inflation. *Part 1 Haku went from being outdone by Sasuke in close quarters to blocking a kick from Lee and Gai at the same time in part 2. *
> 
> So yeah he's there next to
> 
> ...




The feat you're talking about was when Haku was using his Crystal Ice Mirrors--the same Crystal Ice Mirrors that Sasuke was barely able to keep up with, even when Haku was struggling with having to fight back [1] [2] [3]. Haku is simply faster when using his Kekkei Genkai. I don't think that there was a significant increase in Haku's power before and after the timeskip, and that feat was actually a discredit to Haku's speed with Crystal Ice Mirros IMO, because Lee and Gai were able to track Haku and force him to block in Base.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

But does having a low to mid kage level jutsu really warrant being on that level

I firmly disagree though

Even 1 trick ponies have base stats that warrant their level


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Even 1 trick ponies have base stats that warrant their level



Kimimaro absolutely has Kage level taijutsu, speed, and resilience. I don't think Kimimaro without Sawarabi no Mai is going to be outclassed against A without his Raiton Shroud, Gai without Gates, Tsunade without the Yin Seal, etc.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kimimaro absolutely has Kage level taijutsu, speed, and resilience. I don't think Kimimaro without Sawarabi no Mai is going to have problems against A without his Raiton Shroud or Tsunade without her Genesis Rebirth.



I agree . On that but that isn't so much because of Kimi having kage level taijutsu but his actual body type. A would still be a lot faster and could electrocute him 

While Kimi would be able to defend himself due to his KKG A would be dominating him from start to finish .

Actually I'll recant a little 

Kimi being more durable than Jugo should be able to take more than 2 punches from A even with RNy. That is actually some kage level taijutsu and KKG feat 

But again it's really type dependent I feel if it's just a cqc contest he would have the advantage but most kage level don't actually engage in cqc . A and tsunade are one of the few


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> But again it's really type dependent I feel if it's just a cqc contest he would have the advantage but most kage level don't actually engage in cqc . A and tsunade are one of the few



Well I chose them because they're the same CQC Kage breed as Kimimaro. Without their trumps, they're all on the same playing field, which goes to show Kimimaro's solid Kage level base. 

But Kimimaro without Sawarabi no Mei wouldn't be too outmatched by Onoki without the Jinton, Hiruzen without Enma, Mei without mist, Hanzo without Ibuse, Gaara without sand, etc. either in my opinion.

His evasive ability, taijutsu mastery, and huge resilience are universally useful. Even range warfare doesn't affect him too badly, as he has finger bullets to lob at them and distance only increases his evasion.


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## Yoko (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, I respectfully disagree with you. Orochimaru had enough reason to be serious after Hiruzen had stopped the Hokage from moving, and like I stated, Hiruzen had a reason to be cautious with his chakra usage in his fight against Orochimaru.



It's fine to disagree.  I have no intention to try forcing my opinion upon you.  



> I don't know how you're scaling Kimimaro's durability to being able to take a direct hit from Guruguru's Five Element Attack that was implied to be potent enough to take out or at the least heavily injure the Shinobi Alliance (who had Naruto's chakra cloaks at the time).



Suitons are blunt damage.   Zabuza survived a massive Suiton just fine.  Dotons are also blunt damage.  Raitons aren't always piercing - Kakashi's Raikiri Wolf's DB4 entry implies it only paralyzes, as do Darui's two Raitons.  If the Futon has enough cutting damage, it might hurt him, but considering a thin bone from him in base was barely split by samurai chakra flow, I'm inclined to believe nothing short of a very strong piercing / cutting attack can breach his durability.

A sand burial is more damaging than any of those attacks.  This is what a sand burial does to normal people.  It did absolutely nothing to Kimimaro.  He can literally stroll right out of them like nothing happened.  Generic elementals lack the pound-for-pound power to breach one of the most durable characters in the manga.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Well I chose them because they're the same CQC Kage breed as Kimimaro. Without their trumps, their all on the same playing field, which goes to show Kimimaro's extremely solid base.
> 
> But Kimimaro without Sawarabi no Mei wouldn't be too outmatched by Onoki without the Jinton, Hiruzen without Enma, Mei without mist, Gaara without sand, etc. either. His taijutsu skill and body resilience is universally useful.



Oh really , I thought he would you bring up nice thread ideas 

I thought onoki would still win without jinton. remember he can make giant golems and back pack himself like he did with A . Speed them up and make them heavy for hitting that should do a lot of damage 

Considering he can super weigh his little rock fist to an AoE level punch 

Gaara without sand is fodder though . He is the biggest 1 trick pony ever

Btw base A and tsunade without healing aren't kage level . I can't imagine base A actually beating even the likes of asuma . He can't out speed him enough to not get sliced by hien


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## Sadgoob (Mar 20, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I thought onoki would still win without jinton. remember he can make giant golems and back pack himself like he did with A . Speed them up and make them heavy for hitting that should do a lot of damage



It's possible, but I don't think golems (even lightened) are going to be fast enough to hit Kimimaro, base or CS1, and all he has to do is get to Onoki. This isn't my intention though. I'm only showing that Kimimaro without his trump can contend with other Kage levels without their trumps.



Icegaze said:


> Btw base A and tsunade without healing aren't kage level . I can't imagine base A actually beating even the likes of asuma . He can't out speed him enough to not get sliced by hien



I'm only saying that his base level isn't non-Kage, as we see plenty of Kage levels without their main jutsu around that level. As opposed to the example of giving someone like Dosu a Kage level jutsu. Kimimaro isn't a punk bitch with one big trick. He's a durable monster taijutsu beast with one big trick.


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## Saru (Mar 20, 2016)

Yoko said:


> It's fine to disagree.  I have no intention to try forcing my opinion upon you.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Goton is also more damaging than any of those attacks. Additionally, tanking one of those attacks that you listed is one thing, but tanking all of them at the same time is another thing entirely. The strength of elemental ninjutsu is in fact multiplied by certain elemental combinations (e.g. Fuuton + Katon), so isolating the streams of Hiruzen's Goton isn't the best way of measuring Hiruzen's destructive potential when combining elements is possible.

So, again, are you saying that Kimimaro can tank Guruguru's Goton? Because Hiruzen's Goton clashed with it evenly, making it equal in strength. There was no elemental struggle; Hiruzen matched Guruguru's attack pound for pound. The same attack that was portrayed as a threat to the Shinobi Alliance while they had Naruto's protective chakra cloaks.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

I get your point sadgoob

It's crazy the divide though between what some people think and what say myself your urself think of Kimi

I think most forget the part 2 retcons in some way rounded off Kimi and showed him in some ways in better light that what he displayed 

The whole partial cs2 hence perfect control of it is a big thing people ignore 

Also how Jugo durability hype is actually Kimi hype since Kimi has Jugo cs skin + cs which enhances his own durability 

Jugo taking 2 punches from A means Kimi could take 4 or something 

That's crazy hype . Considering what Sasuke cs has tanked 

Sasuke cs in power and control was compared to Kimi 

All these things seem to be ignored


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## Yoko (Mar 20, 2016)

Saru said:


> So, again, are you saying that Kimimaro can tank Guruguru's Goton? Because Hiruzen's Goton clashed with it evenly, making it equal in strength. There was no elemental struggle; Hiruzen matched Guruguru's attack pound for pound. The same attack that was portrayed as a threat to the Shinobi Alliance while they had Naruto's protective chakra cloaks.[/INDENT]



Yes, I think Kimimaro can tank it.  Nobody in the Shinobi alliance has durability comparable to Kimimaro's.  I'll go ahead and say that I think Kimimaro is the most durable character in the manga after the Raikage, and excluding god-tiers and their mechas.


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## Icegaze (Mar 20, 2016)

I gotta disagree with you there YOko

Kakuzu is more durable than Kimi by feats or rather is a better tank 

However tanking 5 elemental blasts is a stretch . Like a proper stretch .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2016)

We've seen what Itachi's V2 sword did to a forest of Kimi's bones enhanced by sage chakra.

Kimi would get his shit torn into sub atomic particles by attacks of SusanoO's caliber.


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## Saru (Mar 21, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Yes, I think Kimimaro can tank it.  Nobody in the Shinobi alliance has durability comparable to Kimimaro's.  I'll go ahead and say that I think Kimimaro is the most durable character in the manga after the Raikage, and excluding god-tiers and their mechas.




Based on what? Feat-wise, I mean. 

Naruto busted out of Gaara's Sand Burial with force via Kuchiyose. You mentioned that Kimimaro's body resisted the force of Gaara's Sand Burial, but whatever force Gaara's Sand Burial had, it was lower than the opposing force of Gamabunta's body pushing against it, whereas the strongest bone in Kimimaro's body was completely shattered trying to pierce SRA Gaara's sand. Gaara's Sand _not only_ stood up to the force of Kimimaro's attack, it completely shattered Kimimaro's bones as well.

And again, I stress the fact that Guruguru's attack was portrayed as a threat to the Shinobi Alliance with Kurama chakra cloaks [1] [2] [3].​


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

Definitely not. Jirayia didn't even think Part 2 Kakashi was ready for the Hokage title, and Kimmi is vastly inferior to Kakashi.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 21, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Definitely not. Jirayia didn't even think Part 2 Kakashi was ready for the Hokage title, and Kimmi is vastly inferior to Kakashi.



Jiraiya didn't think that Kakashi wasn't fit to be a Kage at all, he thought Kakashi had a ways to go before he was an adequate replacement _for Tsunade_.

There's a difference there.


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## Veracity (Mar 21, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya didn't think that Kakashi wasn't fit to be a Kage at all, he thought Kakashi had a ways to go before he was an adequate replacement _for Tsunade_.
> 
> There's a difference there.



Ahhhh nvm then lol


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya didn't think that Kakashi wasn't fit to be a Kage at all, he thought Kakashi had a ways to go before he was an adequate replacement _for Tsunade_.
> 
> There's a difference there.



Thats a different way of saying that he is not kage level.


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## Yoko (Mar 21, 2016)

Saru said:


> Based on what? Feat-wise, I mean.



I've already cited it - tanking a stronger version of an attack that normally turns people into a puddle of red and samurai chakra flow barely chipping one of his thinner bones in base.



> Naruto busted out of Gaara's Sand Burial with force via Kuchiyose. You mentioned that Kimimaro's body resisted the force of Gaara's Sand Burial, but whatever force Gaara's Sand Burial had, it was lower than the opposing force of Gamabunta's body pushing against it



Of course Gamabunta is going to bust out of a sand burial intended for a target thousands of times smaller than he is.  We're not comparing apples to apples anymore - that sand burial isn't big enough to wrap around Gamabunta's toe nail, let alone his body.



> Whereas the strongest bone in Kimimaro's body was completely shattered trying to pierce SRA Gaara's sand. Gaara's Sand _not only_ stood up to the force of Kimimaro's attack, it completely shattered Kimimaro's bones as well.



Yes, and there are very few things in the manga that can cleanly cut through a mineral enhanced, Shukaku enhanced shield.  I'm not seeing how this relates to downgrading Kimimaro's durability.



> And again, I stress the fact that Guruguru's attack was portrayed as a threat to the Shinobi Alliance with Kurama chakra cloaks [1] [2] [3].[/INDENT]



Your link is showing me Guru Guru's punches threatening the Shinobi Alliance, and I'm fine with that.  I'd expect a physical attack from a Susano'o sized construct to be powerful.  Plus, Shikimaru said they were running out  chakra, so it's possible the shrouds were weaker there than previously.  

I'm not seeing what makes generic elemental streams dangerous to someone as durable as Kimimaro.  Suitons are generally harmless beyond knocking the wind out of someone / pushing them away.  Dotons are blunt damage, and blunt damage is the last thing that is going through Kimimaro's bones if omni-directional compression from sand burials couldn't phase him.  

Sasuke, without any notable durability in base, tanked a Katon just fine with CS2 - Kimimaro's natural durability enhanced by CS2 should allow him to survive with ease.  We don't know the nature of that Raiton, as not all Raitons pierce, and if all it does is paralyze, then it won't accomplish much in the long run.  Same goes for the Futon - is it a cutting Futon or is it a standard gust? 

Taking all of the above into account, I have absolutely no reason to believe those elementals will detrimentally hurt him.  Their size is nice and all, but it's the pound-for-pound damage they deal that ultimately matters, and I doubt it will hurt Kimimaro, let alone significantly.  And Kimimaro isn't a sicking duck.  He has tier 4.5 speed, which I feel is being ignored, and when healthy I doubt the Cursed Seal will impair his movements compared to his ill version.


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## Csdabest (Mar 21, 2016)

Kimimaro supposedly beat KCM Naruto clone. While the third raikage didnt. Soooo

Kimimaro>KCM Naruto Clone> Third Raikage.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I've already cited it - tanking a stronger version of an attack that normally turns people into a puddle of red and samurai chakra flow barely chipping one of his thinner bones in base.




Those feats don't even come close to suggesting that Kimimaro can tank Hiruzen's Goton. You're comparing edges of blades enhanced by fodder samurai chakra to Hiruzen's Goton which was a threat to the Shinobi Alliance (who had no counter) with chakra cloaks. There's something wrong there.




> Of course Gamabunta is going to bust out of a sand burial intended for a target thousands of times smaller than he is.  We're not comparing apples to apples anymore - that sand burial isn't big enough to wrap around Gamabunta's toe nail, let alone his body.




And likewise, Kimimaro is going to sustain major damage from an attack many, many times larger than he is. Scale is a factor that works in both the positive and the negative directions, and it's pertinent to the strength of elemental ninjutsu just as much as it is sheer force.

This is not even beginning to address the fact that Katon, Raiton, and Fuuton deal a completely different type of damage than blunt force.



> Yes, and there are very few things in the manga that can cleanly cut through a mineral enhanced, Shukaku enhanced shield.  I'm not seeing how this relates to downgrading Kimimaro's durability.




Gaara's sand is *far* more durable than Kimimaro's bones because Kimimaro was barely able to put a dent in Gaara's sand, and Gaara wasn't opposing force Kimimaro's force with his own; the sand was just sitting there. Naruto's chakra shrouds are well above Kimimaro's bones in terms of actual durability feats and arguably hype as well. The attack that was strong enough to threaten individuals surrounded by those cloaks is stronger than either Kimimaro's bones _or_ Gaara's defense from a feats and portrayal standpoint, and arguing that Hiruzen's Goton is featless and impossible to measure in terms of potency is ignorant of that portrayal. Feats are not the only way of gauging strength, and Kimimaro's feats alone certainly don't give you the leeway to assert that he can tank Hiruzen's Goton. If an argument wants to be made based on Sasuke's feats, then the increase in durability afforded by the Cursed Seal should be scaled to reasonable threshold. Hiruzen's Goton is above that threshold.




> Your link is showing me Guru Guru's punches threatening the Shinobi Alliance, and I'm fine with that.  I'd expect a physical attack from a Susano'o sized construct to be powerful.  Plus, Shikimaru said they were running out  chakra, so it's possible the shrouds were weaker there than previously.




Guruguru asked the Alliance how it felt to shit themselves, then prepared his attack. Mifune's reaction was one of hopelessness, and Shikamaru's thoughts after Hiruzen intercepted Guruguru's attack *reaffirmed* the sense of hopelessness just previously established in the face of Guruguru's attack. Shikamaru was not referring to Naruto's chakra cloaks because the chakra pools of the the alliance were cited (see Mei's comments, Shikamaru's comments, Ino's comment, and Sakura's comments) as part of the reason that they were unable to *fight back* effectively, or "do something." If the chakra cloaks were what Shikamaru was referring to, they would not have still been surrounding the entire alliance and Shikamaru would not have singled Hiruzen out as the only person capable of doing anything offensively, as tanking attacks with Naruto's chakra cloaks does not require the Alliance's chakra.



> I'm not seeing what makes generic elemental streams dangerous to someone as durable as Kimimaro.  Suitons are generally harmless beyond knocking the wind out of someone / pushing them away.  Dotons are blunt damage, and blunt damage is the last thing that is going through Kimimaro's bones if omni-directional compression from sand burials couldn't phase him.
> 
> Sasuke, without any notable durability in base, tanked a Katon just fine with CS2 - Kimimaro's natural durability enhanced by CS2 should allow him to survive with ease.  We don't know the nature of that Raiton, as not all Raitons pierce, and if all it does is paralyze, then it won't accomplish much in the long run.  Same goes for the Futon - is it a cutting Futon or is it a standard gust?




Your wording suggests that Itachi's Katon did no damage whatsoever. On the contrary, Sasuke's wings were *charred* by Itachi's Katon. Hiruzen's Katon is logically far more powerful, can be further enhanced by Fuuton, and is used with greater force than Itachi's Goukakyuu. The difference in intensity and magnitude between those two attacks is downright _jarring_.


Hiruzen's Goton isn't composed of generic elemental streams. Those elemental streams were strong enough to threaten an Alliance enveloped in Kurama's protective chakra. Therefore, comparing Hiruzen's Fuuton to a basic _gust_ of wind is, again, ignorant of portrayal (and frankly, basic logic). Additionally, the way that each of Guruguru's elemental streams were _spread out_ means that *each* of those streams were capable of doing a significant amount of damage to the Alliance, otherwise they would have been combined in a more lethal fashion.




> Taking all of the above into account, I have absolutely no reason to believe those elementals will detrimentally hurt him.  Their size is nice and all, but it's the pound-for-pound damage they deal that ultimately matters, and I doubt it will hurt Kimimaro, let alone significantly.  And Kimimaro isn't a sicking duck.  He has tier 4.5 speed, which I feel is being ignored, and when healthy I doubt the Cursed Seal will impair his movements compared to his ill version.




There is no escaping a technique of that magnitude with sheer movement speed. What I find mind-boggling (and this is directed more at Sadgoob than yourself) is the fact that Kage-level characters who are considered fast get the benefit of the doubt against Hiruzen's Goton, yet some form of extreme speed (beyond Hebi Sasuke's speed), defense, or flight is absolutely necessary to deal with Sawarabi no Mai, which entirely lacks the presence, hype, and portrayal of Hiruzen's Goton.​


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 22, 2016)

Kimimaro isn't Kage-level.

There isn't a single Kage-level shinobi I can think of that he can more often than not beat.

For reference, my Kage-level tier list:



ATastyMuffin said:


> Yes, another one of these.
> 
> Here's mine, for reference:
> 
> ...


----------



## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

How can Kimi or Hidan be Kage level when any Kage would defeat them easily?


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## Baroxio (Mar 22, 2016)

People are really bugging if they think Hidan can kill Kimimaro. Maybe without knowledge, and Kimimaro not doing anything for the long time it takes Hidan to create his ritual. A ritual, which by the way, is easily destroyed by Sawarbi no Mai. A ritual which is almost impossible to hurt Kimi with if he uses Dance of the Pines, since there's no way Hidan's scythe can draw blood from him in that state.

It's funny that these same people who posit Kimimaro doing absolutely nothing to stop Hidan from drawing blood also posit Kimimaor's opponents doing everything to stop Kimimaro. Old Hiruzen making 4 clones and using 5 elemental blasts? When he basically resigned himself to death by making 2 clones? Funny. Also funny is the fact that Kimimaro could outright counter such a technique by using Sawarbi no Mai and fusing with his bone forest. What then?

Mifune also isn't dealing with Kimimaro with any form of ease. Kimimaro literally fought a horde of his samurai without any difficulty, and his bones specifically resisted their chakra flow. Mifune's chakra flow may damn well be better than theirs, sure. But not to the point when he's cutting clean through anybody. Especially not somebody with Kimimaro's level of taijutsu skill.

As for Chiyo, she either needs some type of poison applied to her puppets that we've never seen before (seriously, go back to the puppet battles, and almost everything that is poisoned is visually lathered in the stuff, so it'd be obvious), or she'd need chakra seal to negate Kimimaro's defenses. Without either of the two, it's almost impossible for her to win. Oh, and if we played Kimimaro like some people play Hiruzen (or alternativley, if Chiyo was dumbed down as much as people suggest Kimimaro would be against Hidan), he'd use Sawarbi no Mai and basically instantly win.

Darui is pretty much the same as Mifune, but arguably in a worse boat. His Raiton flow hasn't shown the feats of Mifune or the other soldier's chakra flow, the most we saw him cut through is one of Killer Bee's tiny swords. Similarly, he doesn't have that many feats in Kenjutsu that make me believe he can beat out Kimimaro's taijutsu. So he eventually gets skewered, since none of his ninjutsu will have much effect on Kimimaro with the possible exception of Black Panther. But considering Kimimaro's mental and physical resistance, I'm not even sure if that can put him down.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

I like Muffin's list (not that I agree with it in its entirety, but it's interesting.) And while I respect his opinion that Kimimaro cannot beat any of those ninja, my opinion is that Kimimaro could be a 50/50 threat to these Low Kage in the list:

*Rasa*

We already say Kimimaro bust out of a sand Tsunami with CS2 strength, and use Sawarabi no Mai to get out from deep underground and ultimately ambush Gaara. It's plausible that he could do the same to Rasa, especially if healthy.

*Karin Uzumaki*

I don't know enough about Karin's outlier sealing feats to really talk about her, but Kimimaro's the more skilled core ninja, and Sawarabi no Mai would be effective on Karin. CS2 and bones might also endure/escape chains.

*Gamabunta/Manda/Gamaken/Gamahiro/Gamakichi/Aoda*

I think Kimimaro's bone forest could very potentially hurt these guys badly, and on the other end of things, I think Kimimaro's an ideal candidate to endure their blunt blows endlessly. His bone bullets can also blind them. 

*Killer Bee (base)*

We saw chakra blades only cut through 1/2 of a single bone, and that was without CS. I don't see Killer Bee's blades being very effective, and Base Killer Bee is vulnerable to Sawarabi no Mai in my opinion.

*Mei Terumi*

Her big kekkei genkai ninjutsu can hurt him, but he can dodge lava, and if the Acid Mist goes up for her to hide, he's going to use Sawarabi no Mei, and probably kill Mei that way.

*Hiruzen Sarutobi (Part 1)*

Hiruzen is a lot slower, and Kimimaro isn't weak in taijutsu form like Orochimaru. Kimimaro is _much_ more durable than a weak zombie's Mokuton jutsu. A weak Kisame broke some with his neck. Hiruzen prefers CQC, and he's outmatched.

*Mifune*

Same problem as base Killer Bee, but Mifune's weaker.

*Hanzo (War Arc)*

Kimimaro's body is auto-regenerative and he was Orochimaru's host, so like Hebi Sasuke, it's highly possible that he's resistant to poison in more ways than one. Hanzo is also in bad shape to evade Sawarabi no Mei (and it'd kill Ibuse too.) 

*Roshi (base)/Han (base)*

I just plain think Kimimaro would beat these guys with superior taijutsu. Kimimaro can endure Han's super-punch, and evade the lava that likely isn't faster than nimbus sand. They're also unable to handle Sawarabi no Mai.

*Tsunade Senju (Part 1)*

Kabuto is 1.5 tiers lower than sick Kimimaro in taijutsu, and a whole tier lower in speed. Being healthy and using the CS makes this gap grow more. We saw her with Kabuto. Kimimaro's on another level.

*Chōza Akimichi*

Sawarabi no Mai skewers this big guy. He'd beat those other giant summons higher on the list, but his lack of agility makes him a bigger target for big techniques. Kimimaro would put him down, and tank or dodge anything he has. 

*One-Tailed Kyūbi Naruto Uzumaki*

I don't think Naruto has anything to put Kimimaro down, and Kimimaro's a lot more skilled in CQC and just as beastly when using CS2, as we know KN1 and CS2 are correlated as parallel power-ups.

*Chiyo*

As stated above, Kimimaro's regeneration or Orochimaru experimentation likely gave him resistance to poison. He can likely dodge it, or with knowledge, use outer bone plates. And Chiyo has no real answer to Sawarabi no Mai.

*Hidan*

Kimimaro is a lot more skilled than Hidan, and Sawarabi no Mai can both skewer Hidan and break up his curse circle (on the off chance Hidan gets that cut.)


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## Matty (Mar 22, 2016)

Baroxio makes a good point. With knowledge there is no way Kimimaro sets up his ritual. The only way Hidan wins is out lasting him but this is alsone a likely possibility


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> How can Kimi or Hidan be Kage level when any Kage would defeat them easily?




I don't get it either...

Like someone else said in another thread: the Kage-level should start with the weakest actual Kage. By feats and portrayal, that Kage would probably be Rasa or Mei, neither of whom should have a problem with taking out Kimimaro and Hidan. The only non-Kage characters I've tried to make a case for being at the Lower Kage level are Mifune, Chiyo, and Kushina, all of whom actually have the feats (fighting Hanzo, restraining the Kyuubi, scaling from Karin) and the portrayal to back up their standing there.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Like someone else said in another thread: the Kage-level should start with the weakest actual Kage. By feats and portrayal, that Kage would probably be Rasa or Mei, neither of whom should have a problem with taking out Kimimaro and Hidan. The only non-Kage characters I've tried to make a case for being at the Lower Kage level are Mifune, Chiyo, and Kushina, all of whom actually have the feats (fighting Hanzo, restraining the Kyuubi, scaling from Karin) and the portrayal to back up their standing there.​



My thinking is that Jiraiya said Akatsuki was an organization of S-rank criminals (in the bingo book.) This denotes Kage level, as A-rank jutsu and missions are the Jonin missions or jutsu that begin bridging into Kage territory.

Akatsuki is just as much of a Kage club as the Gokage, and Hidan was in it. Rusty Tsunade is also the weakest chosen Kage. A low-end Elite Jonin like Kabuto was able to do quite decently against her.

So between Rusty Tsunade, Mifune, Old Hiruzen (by feats,) Chiyo, and Hidan, I think we have a fair rubric of what "Low Kage" can consist of, and there is no huge gap between Low Kage and Elite Jonin.


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## Bringer (Mar 22, 2016)

Why don't people consider Hidan kage level? Yes, he may be bottom of the barrel, but he's still kage level. 

He was fighting an elite Jounin while dodging Shikamaru's shadows at the same time, and he still had the upper hand.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> My thinking is that Jiraiya said Akatsuki was an organization of S-rank criminals (in the bingo book.) This denotes Kage level, as *A-rank jutsu and missions are the Jonin missions or jutsu that begin bridging into Kage territory*.









			
				Databooks said:
			
		

> Anko has completed 89 A-rank and 2 S-rank missions.
> 
> Kurenai has completed 138 A-rank and 14 S-Rank missions.
> 
> Genma has completed 74 A-rank and 2 S-rank missions.




Genma is no more "bridging into Kage territory" than Moegi.




> Akatsuki is just as much of a Kage club as the Gokage, and Hidan was in it. Rusty Tsunade is also the weakest chosen Kage, and the gap between her an Elite Jonin like Kabuto was fairly small.




I don't even think Rusty Tsunade is Kage level, and frankly, given her easily exploitable hemophobia, I don't think anyone should.

Unless by Rusty Tsunade you mean after she summoned Katsuyu. In which case there is a *massive*, Boss Summon-sized gap between her and Part I Kabuto.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Why don't people consider Hidan kage level? Yes, he may be bottom of the barrel, but he's still kage level.
> 
> He was fighting an elite Jounin while dodging Shikamaru's shadows at the same time, and he still had the upper hand.




Hidan was beaten by Shikamaru. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't think that Immortals Arc Shikamaru is going to be running for Hokage 2016 anytime soon.

That little flub puts Hidan below the class of any actual Kage.
​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Asuma also stated Hidan was completely out of his league, and Asuma is an established, upper tier Elite Jonin.



			
				Saru said:
			
		

> Genma is no more "bridging into Kage territory" than Moegi.



Genma is an elite Hokage bodyguard, and completed more S-rank missions than Itachi did. He also didn't complete them solo, but was a team member. So what's your point here beside him not being a relatively featless character?

Really, there's nothing to debate. S-rank missions are the most difficult and most expensive missions, bar none. S-rank jutsu are jutsu that are levels beyond Jonin-difficulty jutsu like Rasengan and Chidori. The supreme level.



			
				Saru said:
			
		

> I don't even think Rusty Tsunade is Kage level, and rankly, given her easily exploitable hemophobia, I don't think anyone should.



Kabuto had bested her before exploiting her hemophobia.


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2016)

When considering Rusty Tsuande you should probably specify before or after her phobia was broken. Adding the yin seal, SS, and Katsuyu surely bumps her power up alot. Certainly enough to beat Kimmi - who was struggling against PTS Garra.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> When considering Rusty Tsuande you should probably specify before or after her phobia was broken. Adding the yin seal, SS, and Katsuyu surely bumps her power up alot. Certainly enough to beat Kimmi - who was struggling against PTS Garra.



The Yin Seal I include, and it definitely makes her more formidable and a Kage level, but her CQC skills are still rusty and make her vulnerable. With Katsuya, she's above Kimimaro, but not definitively so in my opinion  because she's vulnerable before summoning. (I know you disagree.)


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Asuma also stated Hidan was completely out of his league, and Asuma is an established, upper tier Elite Jonin.




The Jonin level is below the Kage level. This is the problem. Just because Hidan is marginally stronger (and I do stress the word marginally) than someone of the Jonin class does not make Hidan a Kage-class ninja. There's a gap between Jonin and Kage that you're either not accounting for, or are blurring at some interval that I have yet to ascertain.




> Genma is an elite Hokage bodyguard, and completed more S-rank missions than Itachi did. He also didn't complete them solo, but was a team member. So what's your point here beside him not being a relatively featless character?
> 
> Really, there's nothing to debate. S-rank missions are the most difficult and most expensive missions, bar none. S-rank jutsu are jutsu that are levels beyond Jonin jutsu like Rasengan and Chidori.




He was defeated by the Sound Four, who any Kage would have trashed. The difficulty in learning a jutsu has nothing to do with the Kage level, as I mentioned in Icegaze's thread. There are multiple factors to be considered when labeling someone as "Kage-level," and the jutsu they have mastered is just one of those factors.



> Kabuto had bested her before exploiting her hemophobia.




No he did not. Kabuto and Tsunade were evenly matched up to that point. Tsunade was not bested in any fashion, and Kabuto had to pop a Soldier Pill to keep up with her in the first place.

>Kabuto pops a Soldier Pill.
>Kabuto gets a hit in.
>Tsunade gets a hit in.
>Kabuto threatens to exploit her hemophobia.

That's a summary of how their exchange went.​


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## Veracity (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The Yin Seal I include, and it definitely makes her more formidable and a Kage level, but her CQC skills are still rusty and make her vulnerable. With Katsuya, she's above Kimimaro, but not definitively so in my opinion  because she's vulnerable before summoning. (I know you disagree.)


The yin seal most likely boosts strength and speed - Add that to single seal regeneration and Tsunade's CQC performance would sky rocket. And I guess having a boss summoning that can split, tank attacks and spit " Oro killing" acid wouldn't help?


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

Kimimaro isn't  Kage level, only people who can defeat Kages are Kage level. Mei, Choujuro, Kakashi or maybe Rasa are the weakest Kage and they are able to fight Bijuus in a 1 vs 1 fight. Rasa actually stopped Shukaku on his own.

The weakest Kage is still >>>>>>>>>> Kimimaro and Hidan.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> The Jonin level is below the Kage level. This is the problem. Just because Hidan is marginally stronger (and I do stress the word marginally) than someone of the Jonin class does not make Hidan a Kage-class ninja. There's a gap between Jonin and Kage that you're either not accounting for, or are blurring at some interval that I have yet to ascertain.



Asuma did not say Hidan was marginally completely out of his league. The author stressed Akatsuki being S-rank, and Hidan being out of an Elite Jonin's league. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.



Saru said:


> He was defeated by the Sound Four, who any Kage would have trashed.



Give me a reason why Mei, Tsunade, Chiyo, Mifune, Hiruzen, Onoki, etc. could dodge Kidomaru sniping them when Neji with 360 degree vision and a chakra bubble actively looking for him wasn't able to do so.

The speed gap argument also isn't working for me. The speed gap was closed. SRA Neji had a 4.5 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed. That's a whole tier faster than Hiruzen, and his CQC is likely better than a lot of the named Kage.

So if Neji's a whole tier faster than Hiruzen, more insightful with the Byakugan, then why is Hiruzen dodging the web, in your opinion? This is the kind of BS I'm talking about. Zero feat support or any meaningful logic.

We saw EMS Sasuke and Itachi handling the Sound 4 jutsu, and it didn't look particularly easy. Kabuto (a High Kage) also thought they were valuable enough techniques to integrate into himself over other genes at his disposal.

The whole "any Kage could trash the Sound 4" argument is one of the dumbest in the Battledome. It requires an imaginary speed gap and just flat ignoring the simultaneous pain of sniping, webs, sound genjutsu, fusing, etc.

The fact is, they didn't struggle with the Tokubetsu Jonin after CS2 was activated, and we have no idea how strong those Tokubetsu Jonin were. You're using circular logic based on rank.

The same logic that has people calling SRA Gaara and Drunk Lee Genin level, even though Drunk Lee was stated to be too much for Gai, and SRA Gaara was elected the Kazekage after his father's death.



Saru said:


> No he did not. Kabuto and Tsunade were evenly matched up to that point. Tsunade was not bested in any fashion, and Kabuto had to pop a Soldier Pill to keep up with her in the first place.



Kabuto was tactically dominating the match. Tsunade got her first hit in only when Kabuto assumed she was completely beaten, but her extra large breasts cushioned the hit better than he expected.


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## Matty (Mar 22, 2016)

Zuhaitz said:


> Kimimaro isn't  Kage level, only people who can defeat Kages are Kage level. Mei, Choujuro, Kakashi or maybe Rasa are the weakest Kage and they are able to fight Bijuus in a 1 vs 1 fight. Rasa actually stopped Shukaku on his own.
> 
> The weakest Kage is still >>>>>>>>>> Kimimaro and Hidan.



What makes Chojuro above Kimimaro?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kabuto was tactically dominating the match.



Their tactic was _"don't even try to fight her until she's out of breath, run for the hills until then"_.



> Tsunade got her first hit in only when Kabuto assumed she was completely beaten, but her extra large breasts cushioned the hit better than he expected.



Tsunade's first hit was the shoulder-rush, and Kabuto got his first hit in only when Tsunade was aerial.

Also no they didn't. He was simply guesstimating as to why she was still able to move like that, but we know his hypothesis that her breast size prevented him from reaching her intercostals was wrong because Tsunade herself noted mentally that he _did_ get her intercostals.


Imma go ahead and address this too:



> *Tsunade Senju (Part 1)*
> 
> Kimimaro is 1.5 tiers lower than sick Kimimaro in taijutsu, and a whole tier lower in speed.



Paragraphs that start with this virtually always turn out disingenuous.

It was obvious Tsunade was at a different level than what Kabuto could stand up to in a Taijutsu fray even in Part 1.

He only needed to score brief taps in order to counter her enormous strength, and yet still had to straight up run in the other direction until Tsunade reached the point where her breath was coming fast while he simultaneously enhanced his own physicality with the Hyōrōgan in order to engage her up close, and even then she was able to keep up since she evaded Kabuto's initial attack and struck him back as soon as he managed to tag her. As a reminder- Kabuto with the Hyōrōgan was able to slip right into Shizune's zone and hit her handily _without_ needing to wait for her to tire, and she scored a 4 in speed. If he had not done that Tsunade would have made surprisingly quick work of him like she did Shizune or (would have) Orochimaru when they were in close-proximity with her.



> if Kabuto and Orochimaru took sucker-punches from Tsunade



Here goes the clearest example of disingenuousness I was talking about earlier. Kabuto and Orochimaru took punches from Tsunade _when her muscles had been cut_. Orochimaru was momentarily knocked out when Tsunade hit him for real- it visibly panicked Kabuto. Orochimaru had also told Kabuto earlier that a single shot from Tsunade would have killed him, even knowing about In'yu Shōmetsu.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Asuma did not say Hidan was marginally completely out of his league. *The author stressed Akatsuki being S-rank, and Hidan being out of an Elite Jonin's league*. That's the end of it as far as I'm concerned.




No he did not. Asuma said that Hidan _and_ Kakuzu were stronger than he was, and he addressed both of them at the same time. Asuma and Hidan are fairly evenly matched, but Hidan's invulnerability and knowledge-dependent abilities puts him over the top. 

And, as I stated, Asuma is not at the Kage-level either, so he does not serve as adequate justification for Hidan's placement at the Kage level either.




> Circular reasoning. We saw Itachi and Sasuke against Sound 4 jutsu. It ain't easy. You give me a reason why Mei could dodge Kidomaru sniping her when Neji with 360 degree vision and a chakra bubble for extra protection didn't.




Seriously? 

Mei would turn the battlefield into Nova Humid Bone Forest. Are you trying to imply that Mei would be unable to defeat Kidomaru? If that's not what you're implying, then surely you acknowledge that the skillset with which Neji was forced to fight Kidomaru differs tremendously in both variety and scale from Mei's skillset?




> Kabuto was dominating the match. The only time Tsunade got a good hit in was when Kabuto assumed she was beaten but her breasts took the hit better than he expected.




The only thing Kabuto was dominating was the ground after Tsunade tackled him.



Then both she and Kabuto recovered from each other's respective blows and stood on their two feet, a bit weakened  (Kabuto was not at full control of his body, and Tsunade was still suffering from the effects of Kabuto's chakra scalpel to some extent) but still ready to fight. Don't try to make it out to be anything more than it was: an even clash. And Kabuto still needed Soldier Serum to keep up.

Which brings me back to my point about Tsunade being *much* stronger than Kabuto after summoning Katsuyu and Tsunade not being Kage-level prior due to her aforementioned rust and hemophobia.​


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Give me a reason why Mei, Tsunade, Chiyo, Mifune, Hiruzen, Onoki, etc. could dodge Kidomaru sniping them when Neji with 360 degree vision and a chakra bubble actively looking for him wasn't able to do so.



Tsunade summons Katsuyu and makes a new Humid Bone Forest.

Chiyo summons Chikamatsu's Ten Puppets and goes HAM to raze the forestry in her path assuming that her puppets have a decent amount of range. I don't think Chiyo is necessarily Kage-level in the first place.

Hiruzen swings Enma in a circle and smashes the forest into bits the same way he, you know, smashed Hashirama's Mokuton.

Ohnoki uses Lightsaber Jinton and destroys the forest, *as he did in canon*.

I have no idea what you're trying to prove by seeing how badly various Kage can slaughter the Sound Four. 



> The speed gap argument also isn't working for me. The speed gap was closed. SRA Neji had a 4.5 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed. That's a whole tier faster than Hiruzen, and his CQC is likely better than a lot of the named Kage.
> 
> So if Neji's a whole tier faster than Hiruzen, more insightful with the Byakugan, then why is Hiruzen dodging the web, in your opinion? This is the kind of BS I'm talking about. Zero feat support or any meaningful logic.




Hiruzen has Enma. Enma is an Adamantine Staff capable of ripping through Hashirama's Mokuton. Enma can rip through Kidomaru's webs, knock away his projectiles (if they're in Hiruzen's line of sight), and smash the forest down until Kidomaru has nowhere left to crawl.



> We saw EMS Sasuke and Itachi handling the Sound 4 jutsu, and it didn't look particularly easy. Kabuto (a High Kage) also thought they were valuable enough techniques to integrate into himself over other genes at his disposal.
> 
> *The whole "any Kage could trash the Sound 4" argument is one of the dumbest in the Battledome.* It requires an imaginary speed gap and just flat ignoring the simultaneous pain of sniping, webs, sound genjutsu, fusing, etc.




It's really not. When Genma and Raido can give the Sound Four as a unit a lot of trouble, any Kage-level ninja should be capable of defeating them with relative ease. I don't see how you're not seeing that from a portrayal perspective or a basic logical perspective, and I can only reason that it has to do with a preference on your behalf for feats over statements and portrayal. Even by feats, every single one the Kage would trash the Sound Four simultaneously because all of them have prevailed against _*far*_ stronger opponents.



> The fact is, they didn't struggle with the Tokubetsu Jonin after CS2 was activated, and we have no idea how strong those Tokubetsu Jonin were. You're using circular logic based on rank.




You're making things up now. The fight was not shown on panel. We don't know how much trouble the Sound Four had against Genma and Raido with CS2 activated, but what we do know is that the Sound Four were visibly injured, frustrated, and weakened after their skirmish. Genma and Raido are not Kage-level ninja. They are elite fodder at best.

The gap between a Kage and Jonin is a *lot* bigger than you seem to be envisioning, IMO.




> The same logic that has people calling SRA Gaara and Drunk Lee Genin level, even though Drunk Lee was stated to be too much for Gai, and SRA Gaara was elected the Kazekage after his father's death.




You're not associating similar trains of thought, so you're criticizing a fictitious NBD individual (or at least I haven't seen this person). I do not believe that Gaara is Genin-level (although Drunken Lee _clearly_ is), and I do not believe that Hidan is Kage-level either.​


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## Bringer (Mar 22, 2016)

Also, it should be noted that the Jounin the Sound 4 fought stated that they were exhausted after a mission.


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## ATastyMuffin (Mar 22, 2016)

The Jōnin straight-up said the only reason they lost was because they were practically out of chakra by the time the fight started.

Stop using the Jōnin example, people. The Sound Four fought drastically weakened versions of them. As a feat, that's completely meaningless when the implication is that the Sound Four would have easily lost had not been for that handicap.


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## Zuhaitz (Mar 22, 2016)

Matty said:


> What makes Chojuro above Kimimaro?



Choujuro fought Kinshiki and was able to hold his ground.

Kinshiki >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kimimaro.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> _How can people with much larger blindspots than Neji and no sensing capabilities defend against being sniped through their blindspot?_
> 
> _How can people far less scouting capabilities than a Byakugan prodigy locate a hidden Kidomaru before he fires through their blindspot?_




The circumstances of Neji's battle with Kidomaru didn't start with Kidomaru already hidden in a forest with CS2 activated and spamming webs, spiders, and projectiles at his opponent. It started with Kidomaru in Base, engaging Neji at close range (the same way he engaged Genma and Raido) after wasting an entire chapter throwing projectiles at Naruto's Kage Bunshin. Kidomaru escaped Neji line of sight by simply... Dashing away. He's not going to replicate that feat against a Kage.

Each and every Kage would kill Kidomaru _long_ before any of those threats you just mentioned came into play. The Kage don't have to be able to deal with those things because they won't let the situation escalate to that point, and even if it did, half of those characters could literally tear the forest down before Kidomaru had the chance to get going.

I'm purposefully not answering your questions because your questions are not meaningful in a reasonable context. Shikamaru can kill Kage too if you give him prep, then let him litter the battlefield with traps and hide beforehand, but the conclusion of that battle is not meaningful.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> The circumstances of Neji's battle with Kidomaru didn't start with Kidomaru already hidden in a forest with CS2 activated and spamming webs, spiders, and projectiles at his opponent. It started with Kidomaru in Base, engaging Neji at close range after wasting an entire chapter throwing big, pointy rocks at Naruto's Kage Bunshin. Kidomaru escaped Neji line of sight by simply... Dashing away. That's not going to happen against a Kage.



Actually, it started with an ambush that Kidomaru saw through, and put them in a web short after. Neji was the only one with the special ability to break out, the same ability that let him escape the Water Prison that Kakashi couldn't. 

And if Kidomaru and the Sound 4 are fighting a higher level opponent, you can expect him to take it much more seriously. Right? He was toying with them because he was clearly on a much higher level.



Saru said:


> I'm purposefully not answering your questions because your questions are not meaningful in a reasonable context. Shikamaru can kill Kage too if you give him prep, then let him litter the battlefield with traps and hide beforehand, but the conclusion of that battle is not meaningful.



You seriously don't think Kidomaru would hide and snipe if he had the rest of the Sound 4 as backup and was going up against a Kage level? How is that so implausible that you can't even address it as a possibility?


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Actually, it started with an ambush that Kidomaru saw through, and put every single one of them in a web short after. Neji was the only one with the ability to break out.




It may have started as an ambush, but Kidomaru certainly didn't try to get space. He didn't do that until the rest of Neji's party had left and he had assessed Neji's ability to cut his threads with the Gentle Fist.




> And if Kidomaru and the Sound 4 are fighting a higher level opponent, you can expect him to take it much more seriously.




Perhaps, but it's not like he wasn't fighting seriously against Neji. Kidomaru likes to toy with his food before he eats it. That's a character trait.




> You seriously don't think Kidomaru would hide and snipe if he had the rest of the Sound 4 as backup and was going up against a Kage level?




Your original question only addressed Kidomaru, not the all of the Sound Four at the same time. That said, in a 4-on-1 battle scenario, Kidomaru's "backup" doesn't make a difference. The rest of the Sound Four is not adequate backup. Mei solos Tayuya, Kidomaru, and Sakon with a massive Suiryudan at the beginning of the match. They don't have the speed feats to suggest that they can dodge it. Jirobo may be able to tank one, but Mei can melt him with Futton regardless. 

The other Kage can more or less do the same thing: overwhelm the Sound Four with their wealth of experience and vastly superior offense before their opponents can do much of anything.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob and saru Please read the following both you so far are by far the most interested in kimimaro. So this post should interest you

When considering kimimaro level we have 2 divides those who use part 1 feats to determine his level and those who I believe consider the part 2 retcon's when evaluating what a healthy kimimaro would have been capable of 

*Cursed seal* 

jugo when attacking sasuek directly compared sasuke control of it with that of kimimaro's. i.e kimimaro was able to use parital transformations when healthy. *chapter 351 *
this is a clear retcon because in part 1 it was stated to slow him down by lee. *chapter 216*

This is a clear retcon in part 2 because kimi metamorphosis ist going to be slowing down someone who has perfect control over it. 

So this already shows the CS2 kimimaro we saw was slower than what he should be by part 2 retcon. 

Partial transformation also presents decent cqc versatility in battle which simply adds to kimimaro power

Another thing to note in part 2 is that kimimaro is able to use bone forest in base. Which again gives him a battle advantage and shows how painfully unserious he was when he faced Naruto and lee

Against lee he used only the 3 dance in base to defeat lee. please note that doesn't even come close to 30% of his battle ability 

*ugo*

jugo hype is automatically kimi hype. HEre is why jugo who painly admitted kimimaro who has no seals or genjutsu to restrain jugo could do so by force without hurting himself. Nagato hyped jugo power, this should tell us something as to how much stronger kimi is than his fight in part 2

better yet CS2 skin has tanked 2 Raikage punches and C2 bomb. Kimimaro is more durable than either hebi sasuke or jugo, this again should give us an inkling of how hard he is to put down

Lastly , Sound 4 believed they could take on kakashi who was already firmly established as the strongest jounin

kimimaro being able to shit on the sound 4 was introduced after that, clearly pointing us in the direction of kimi> kakashi in part1

The kimi who fought lee and the others clearly<<<<<<kimi by part 2 retcon

unless one believes lee would even slightly pose a challenge for the sound 4, or KN0 Naruto

but yes by portrayal, i.e who kimi has faced he is going to be clearly considered under Mei considering who she faced

so I think he isn't kage level regardless of his health however he is the strongest elite jounin

Conclusion healthy kimi= kimi shown but faster in CS2 state. add to that the inflation brought to the table by jugo peformance


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Your original question only addressed Kidomaru, not the all of the Sound Four at the same time. That said, in a 4-on-1 battle scenario, Kidomaru's "backup" doesn't make a difference. The rest of the Sound Four is not adequate backup. Mei solos Tayuya, Kidomaru, and Sakon with a massive Suiryudan at the beginning of the match.



That jutsu doesn't really kill people it hits, especially if they have CS durability. Jirobo could also block it with an Earth Wall, or Sakon could block it with the  defense that he and Orochimaru use.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sadgoob and saru Please read the following both you so far are by far the most interested in kimimaro. So this post should interest you
> 
> When considering kimimaro level we have 2 divides those who use part 1 feats to determine his level and those who I believe consider the part 2 retcon's when evaluating what a healthy kimimaro would have been capable of
> 
> ...




I agree that Kimimaro is an elite Jounin. I've never suggested otherwise. I believe he's above Part I Kakashi by a fair margin as well. 

However, I don't think that the Kimimaro who fought Naruto, Lee, and Gaara was weaker at all. Drunken Lee knocked out Gai, so the fact that Lee was only able to get a hit in on Kimimaro in Base actually reflects rather well on Kimimaro based on a comparison of his and Gai's performances. Gaara was also already at the Jounin level at that point in the series, as it took a Boss Summon (which can give Jounin trouble on their own) to take him down, and even though Gaara didn't use Shukaku, he was still operating at a very high level and would have _lost_ to fanfic healthy Kimimaro. But, once again, Gaara was not at the Kage level at that point, so it doesn't make sense to put Kimimaro on that pedestal based on his performance against Gaara, especially considering the fact that Kimimaro had to go all out.



Sadgoob said:


> That jutsu doesn't really kill people it hits, especially if they have CS durability. Jirobo could also block it with an Earth Wall, or Sakon could block it with the  defense that he and Orochimaru use.




Mei's massive Suiton would likely knock those Sound Four out, CS-enhanced durability or no. At the very least it would knock all of them down and allow Mei to finish them off with Futton. Why do you think that they would be able to defend themselves with ninjutsu in time? Because they were able to do so against Genin? This is why I emphasized the Kage having prevailed against stronger opponents. All of the Sound Four's feats have to be considered in the context of whom they were facing, and they were all facing a group of Genin. Mei's Suiton by feats are far faster than Kiba's Wolf Fang Over Fang.

Kimimaro is a different story than the rest, but he still doesn't crack the Kage level IMO, and he wouldn't beat any actual Kage.

​


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

Gotta agree with sadgoob

water dragon aint doing shit to rashomon wall 

the sound 4 shouldn't just be dimissed in that sense, if we going to go with portrayal might as well say she is a kage she kills them all with 1 kunai. ignoring everything shown in the manga thus far

ninja level doesn't suddenly make them immune to things, it allows them to deal with stuff easier

truth is Mei stomps all for by using hidden mist and killing them. they got nothing against that


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> water dragon aint doing shit to rashomon wall




And based on what feats can Sakon and Ukon use that Kushiyose in time? Using it against Kiba's Gatsuga? Does Kiba's Gatsuga have feats comparable to Mei's Suiton feats? I don't think so.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> I agree that Kimimaro is an elite Jounin. I've never suggested otherwise. I believe he's above Part I Kakashi by a fair margin as well.
> 
> However, I don't think that the Kimimaro who fought Naruto, Lee, and Gaara was weaker at all. Drunken Lee knocked out Gai, so the fact that Lee was only able to get a hit in on Kimimaro in Base actually reflects rather well on Kimimaro based on a comparison of his and Gai's performances. Gaara was also already at the Jounin level at that point in the series, as it took a Boss Summon (which can give Jounin trouble on their own) to take him down, and even though Gaara didn't use Shukaku, he was still operating at a very high level and would have _lost_ to fanfic healthy Kimimaro. But, once again, Gaara was not at the Kage level at that point, so it doesn't make sense to put Kimimaro on that pedestal based on his performance against Gaara, especially considering the fact that Kimimaro had to go all out.​





then you didn't read my post. CS2 made him slower which it should not have based on chapter 351 claim. how can you have perfect control yet in 216 the claim was he doesn't control it perfectly so he is slower. so that's a retcon and a huge change to his battle ability 

I don't put him at kage level either but kimi even while weakened and before CS2 retcon he was decisively stronger than what gaara showed 



> Mei's massive Suiton would likely knock the Sound Four out, CS-enhanced durability or no. Why do you think that they would be able to defend themselves with ninjutsu in time? Because they were able to do so against Genin? This is why I emphasized the Kage having prevailed against stronger opponents. Mei's Suiton by feats are far faster than Kiba's Wolf Fang Over Fang. All of the Sound Four's feats have to be considered in the context of whom they were facing, and they were all facing a group of Genin.
> 
> Kimimaro is a different story than the rest, but he still doesn't crack the Kage level.



rashomon gate. laughs at featless water dragon 

why wont they be able to, since when 

hinata who is several tiers below deva could pressure him in cqc to the point he used ST. 

so hinata who hasn't faced anyone and was a chunin at the time how did she pull it off. considering kakashi came at deva with raikiri and deva titled his head to avoid kakashi with ease

yet backed away against hinata

DO not forget abilities as well, it aint just a level thing

kiba is a clean tier or 2 below Mei yet he would UTTERLY shit on preta path while Mei would get her teeth kicked in by preta path

IN the same sense in Mei vs sound 4 they got advantages over her that level alone doesn't just allow her to ignore


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> then you didn't read my post. CS2 made him slower which it should not have based on chapter 351 claim. how can you have perfect control yet in 216 the claim was he doesn't control it perfectly so he is slower. so that's a retcon and a huge change to his battle ability
> 
> I don't put him at kage level either but kimi even while weakened and before CS2 retcon he was decisively stronger than what gaara showed




I'm not sure what claim you're talking about. There was no retcon in Kimimaro's abilities. Jugo complimented Sasuke's ability to partially transform due to his mastery of the Cursed Seal. There's nothing about speed implied in that statement. Kimimaro's full CS2 metamorphosis is what caused Kimimaro's movements to slow down, and even if he did slow down, that has no direct bearing on his ability to defeat Jugo, especially when he's capable of Sawarabi no Mai in that state.




> rashomon gate. laughs at featless water dragon




Mei's Suijinheki intercepted Madara's Katon when it was this close to Tsunade, then she used Suiryuudan and swallowed Madara up before he did anything in the same swoop. That's far more impressive that Kiba's Gatsuga speed, which Sakon and Ukon dodged from close range.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> And based on what feats can Sakon and Ukon use that Kushiyose in time? Using it against Kiba's Gatsuga? Does Kiba's Gatsuga have feats comparable to Mei's Suiton feats? I don't think so.​



rashomon requires no seal though. all they need to do is tap the floor before it gets to them

not implies Mei can use a jutsu quicker than they can tap the bloody floor

might as well claim because she is a kage she beats jirobo in a straight taijutsu match


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

> Saru said:
> 
> 
> > I'm not sure what claim you're talking about. There was no retcon in Kimimaro's abilities. Jugo complimented Sasuke's ability to partially transform due to his mastery of the Cursed Seal. There's nothing about speed implied in that statement. Kimimaro's full CS2 metamorphosis is what caused Kimimaro's movements to slow down, and even if he did slow down, that has no direct bearing on his ability to defeat Jugo, especially when he's capable of Sawarabi no Mai in that state.​
> ...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> But, once again, Gaara was not at the Kage level at that point, so it doesn't make sense to put Kimimaro on that pedestal based on his performance against Gaara, especially considering the fact that Kimimaro had to go all out.



He was selected as Kazekage after his father died. He was likely Kage level.



Saru said:


> Why do you think that they would be able to defend themselves with ninjutsu in time? Because they were able to do so against Genin? This is why I emphasized the Kage having prevailed against stronger opponents. All of the Sound Four's feats have to be considered in the context of whom they were facing, and they were all facing a group of Genin.



See, this is weird. In one sentence, you acknowledge that Drunk Lee beat Gai, but then in the next, you revert to using their technical status as Genin as if it has any bearing on their actual level. None of them were Genin level. 

The guys that  beat were Chunin. So the SRA group was made up of mostly low-end to solid Jonin, as they're much more comparable to pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi, with some being solidly superior.


Drunk Lee
SRA Neji
Butterfly Choji
Temari's Weasel
They're all _very_ solidly stronger than pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi, who was a Jonin, and who we can compare to kid Obito (who has DB stats.) And SRA Kankuro with prepped ambushes was also likely closer to low Jonin.


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## Matty (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He was selected as Kazekage after his father died. He was likely Kage level.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Tbh it wasn't long before that battle with Kimi that Sasuke wrecked gaara and naruto stopped shukaku. So if we are calling SRA Gaara kage level then we are REALLY opening the door for others to become kage level


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Gaara became Kazekage over the timeskip. That doesn't have much to do with his power at the time he fought Kimimaro.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Matty said:


> Tbh it wasn't long before that battle with Kimi that Sasuke wrecked gaara and naruto stopped shukaku. So if we are calling SRA Gaara kage level then we are REALLY opening the door for others to become kage level



Gaara was massively stronger though. Think about it. Drunk Lee was stated to beat Gai. Kimimaro was about equal. Gaara was deflecting someone that would keep pace with base Gai, on top of a bunch of other powers.

Gaara did his own training to get his reflexes up, and then jacked up his sand control powers by a lot too. There's nothing CE Sasuke would've been able to do to him at that point if they had a rematch. He'd be sand coffin'd in seconds.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> He was selected as Kazekage after his father died. He was likely Kage level.




Gaara did not become the Kazekage overnight, however.




> See, this is weird. In one sentence, you acknowledge that Drunk Lee beat Gai, but then in the next, you revert to using their technical status as Genin as if it has any bearing on their actual level. None of them were Genin level.
> 
> The guys that  beat were Chunin. So the SRA group was made up of mostly low-end to solid Jonin, as they're much more comparable to pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi, with some being solidly superior.




Except Drunken Lee is stronger than non-Drunken Lee. 

... The SRA team was not composed of Jounin. It was composed of people who were ready for the Chuunin level at best. That's why after the timeskip, most of them are _still_ only Chuunin, save for some standouts like Neji, Temari, and Gaara.​


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## ~M~ (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru your arguments foundation rests on straw why have you dragged this argument out 4 pages  Kimimaro dies still 10/10


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Saru your arguments foundation rests on straw why have you dragged this argument out 4 pages  Kimimaro dies still 10/10




Because next thing you know, people are going to be saying that characters like Hidan, Kimimaro, and Darui, Suigetsu, Lee... Can beat Mei. People already think that Kimimaro can crush Hiruzen.

And I just disagree.

**​


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Gaara did not become the Kazekage overnight, however.



How long do you think Suna left the Kage seat vacant? It had already been vacant for more than a month. It was likely very shortly after. 



Saru said:


> Except Drunken Lee is stronger than non-Drunken Lee.



Drunken Lee was comparable to Kimimaro. Gaara was handling Kimimaro fine (whose stats are akin to Gai.) This translates into Gaara handling base Gai fine. This shows the tremendous growth between CE Gaara and SRA Gaara.



Saru said:


> ... The SRA team was not composed of Jounin. It was composed of people who were ready for the Chuunin level at best.



That's rich. CE Shikamaru would be _raped_ by Butterfly Choji, SRA Neji, Temari with her summon, Kankuro with prep, Drunk Lee, or KN0. Most of them could probably beat two or three Shikamarus at once.

And I'd say CE Shikamaru was stronger than the low-bar for the Chunin rank as the Demon Brothers. So no. They weren't Chunin level at best. They were Jonin level. Kid Kakashi was not stronger than them.

Don't believe me? Look at the databooks. Kid Obito with the 2-tomoe was keeping pace (and saving multiple times) Kid Kakashi, a Jonin. Obito had a 3 in speed, 2 in taijutsu, etc. He wasn't a super impressive kid. Nor was Kakashi.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Drunk Lee was stated to beat Gai.



He wasn't stated to beat Gai in the Viz. 

Lee's drunken frenzy was too much for Gai to handle because _by the time Gai stopped him_ Lee had already demolished the restaurant they were at.



Sadgoob said:


> Drunken Lee was comparable to Kimimaro. Gaara was handling Kimimaro fine. This translates into Gaara handling base Gai fine.



That's not how it works.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

The drunken taijutsu was said to be too much for Gai to handle. It was stated in the databook, in black and white. No more denying it. Gai's sweating face and look of terror should have been enough proof.



> -*Just what's with those drunken frenzies even Guy can't handle?!* The usually well-spoken Lee charges with the destructive power of an explosion!!


 
And yes, that's how it works. If A and B are about equal in CQC, and B beats C, then A is comparable to C at the very least. Especially when A and C are given similar databook stats by the author. There's nothing not-workable about that.

A = Kimimaro
B = Drunk Lee
C = Gai

Honestly, the sheer mental gymnastics you people do to deny this is amazing, and it's incremental in understanding that most of the part 1 characters in the SRA are no longer fodder to Jonin, a blight upon the BD!


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> How long do you think Suna left the Kage seat vacant? It had already been vacant for more than a month. It was likely very shortly after.




I don't know. It's not something I've really had the interest to speculate on. However, we know that temporary replacements are a thing. 




> Drunken Lee was comparable to Kimimaro. Gaara was handling Kimimaro fine (whose stats are akin to Gai.) This translates into Gaara handling base Gai fine. This shows the tremendous growth between CE Gaara and SRA Gaara.




Apparently not according to what FlamingRain just linked.

And no, A > B > C logic doesn't work like that. Lee was ostensibly too much for Gai because of his unpredictability in close quarters (hence the chapter's title: _Unpredictable!_). Gaara does not use close quarters; match ups are a thing.




> That's rich. CE Shikamaru would be _raped_ by Butterfly Choji, SRA Neji, Temari with her summon, Kankuro with prep, Drunk Lee, or KN0. Most of them could probably beat two or three Shikamarus at once.




No. 

Butterfly Choji almost died afterwards and was fighting a relatively slow, dumb opponent. The other people you're mentioning are the standouts I literally just mentioned, so I don't know why you brought them up.​


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Gaara and Kankuro had a flashback where Gaara decided to join the regular forces and work his way up to the Kazekage title from there. It probably took a while.



Sadgoob said:


> ^ He was in the databook.



The databook said something along the lines of those frenzies being too much for Gai to handle, but if Lee had already torn apart a restaurant by the time Gai managed to stop him it was too much for Gai to handle.

The definition you're looking for wouldn't be handle oneself like _"I can handle myself in a fight"_, but rather handling a situation, as in _"I'm not sure I'd be able to handle it if Lee did that again"_.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2016)

What one has to think about when looking at sound 4 level is, how would they fare against the people they faced in part 1. BUt their war arc versions 

kiba by war arc is still only  a chunin 

he was not promoted

kid kakashi was because of the situation not his level, kid kakashi cant handle war arc shikamaru

I thnk every sound 4 looses to who they faced by war arc, and badly at that. maybe the term chunin also got a power inflation. Because jounin clearly did as well 

darui got black lighting and a KKG and yet is only jounin level. He would shit on part 1 kabuto so so hard.


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## ~M~ (Mar 22, 2016)

Please cease all a>b>c arguments immediately, this seems incredibly ridiculous to me


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Tayuya would have probably had an easier time with any other ninja that was on the SRA team than she did Shikamaru tbh.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> And yes, that's how it works. If A and B are about equal in CQC, and B beats C, then A is comparable to C at the very least. Especially when A and C are given similar databook stats by the author. There's nothing not-workable about that.
> 
> A = Kimimaro
> B = Drunk Lee
> C = Gai




You left Gaara out of your equation. Base Gai is not Kage-level in the first place.​


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## ~M~ (Mar 22, 2016)

Base-Gai is kage-tier out of pure speed the number one stat


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

~M~ said:


> Base-Gai is kage-tier out of pure speed the number one stat




He loses to literally all actual Kage.​


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> And yes, that's how it works.



No, it isn't, because the advantages Kimimaro utilized against Lee are not ones Gaara could also use.



> Honestly, the sheer mental gymnastics you people do to deny this is amazing, and it's incremental in understanding that most of the part 1 characters in the SRA are no longer fodder to Jonin, a blight upon the BD!



If you've got a complaint you ought to staple your fingers to your keyboard along with your Itachi/sound ninja associate fanaticism, _then_ try to say something.


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## Yoko (Mar 22, 2016)

Chopping out a lot because you're repeating yourself and most of what you posted was in my previous response already.



Saru said:


> Those feats don't even come close to suggesting that Kimimaro can tank Hiruzen's Goton.



They do when lesser characters have survived comparable attacks with minimal damage.  



> You're comparing edges of blades enhanced by fodder samurai chakra to Hiruzen's Goton which was a threat to the Shinobi Alliance (who had no counter) with chakra cloaks. There's something wrong there.



Nobody in the verse is tanking a normal blade without damage, let alone chakra enhanced ones, barring the Raikage and Domu-enhanced Kakuzu (and god tiers).  You're comparing someone who has been hyped to have an indestructible body and has proven it to us to "fodder" red shirt, nameless characters.

You cited the cloaks tanking Madara and Obito's Katons - if they could do that, why would nameless elementals a fraction of the size do anything? The only explanation I see is less chakra in the cloaks, aligning with Shikimaru's statement.

Sasuke's CS2 allowed him to tank Katons and large scale explosions when his base durability is nonexistent.  Kimimaro's base durability is top tier, and enhancing it further with CS2 should easily allow him to brush off elemental streams.  The only ones that might hurt him are the Raiton and Futon ones, and that's if they have piercing / cutting qualities, which doesn't apply to all.



> What I find mind-boggling (and this is directed more at Sadgoob than yourself) is the fact that Kage-level characters who are considered fast get the benefit of the doubt against Hiruzen's Goton, yet some form of extreme speed (beyond Hebi Sasuke's speed), defense, or flight is absolutely necessary to deal with Sawarabi no Mai, which entirely lacks the presence, hype, and portrayal of Hiruzen's Goton.



Bone forest is more subtle than an attack spat out of the mouth with obvious charge time.  Bone forest sprouts out from the opponent's footing if used close enough.  It's an apples to oranges comparison to liken dodging an elemental blast to bone forest.


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Yoko said:


> They do when lesser characters have survived comparable attacks with minimal damage.




And how are you comparing those attacks? Based on size? You're contradicting yourself. Size is not the only indication of potency. That's why I emphasized Mifune's and Shikamaru's statements. You're stating that Hiruzen's Goton is generic and not a potent enough threat. I'm stating that Hiruzen's Goton _is_ a potent threat _because Mifune and the Alliance said so_. Kimimaro's durability is not exceeding that of Kurama's protective chakra cloaks.




> Nobody in the verse is tanking a normal blade without damage, let alone chakra enhanced ones, barring the Raikage and Domu-enhanced Kakuzu (and god tiers).  You're comparing someone who has been hyped to have an indestructible body and has proven it to us to "fodder" red shirt, nameless characters.




Actually, you were the one who drew the comparison between Kimimaro and the fodder that Gaara killed in an attempt to highlight the force of Gaara's sand. That's an impressive amount of force, but it's different type of damage than Hiruzen's Goton, and it's less potent still.




> You cited the cloaks tanking Madara and Obito's Katons - if they could do that, why would nameless elementals a fraction of the size do anything? The only explanation I see is less chakra in the cloaks, aligning with Shikimaru's statement.




The fact that they're nameless doesn't discredit their portrayal as deadly, so tossing that word around is pointless. Once again, size is not the only indication of potency. Is Goukakyuu more potent than Raikiri? Like I said, Shikamaru's statement implies the exact opposite of what you're suggesting. If Shikamaru's concern was about the chakra cloaks, he wouldn't have been referring to them in the context of _doing something_, or _fighting_ back.



> Sasuke's CS2 allowed him to tank Katons and large scale explosions when his base durability is nonexistent.  Kimimaro's base durability is top tier, and enhancing it further with CS2 should easily allow him to brush off elemental streams.  The only ones that might hurt him are the Raiton and Futon ones, and that's if they have piercing / cutting qualities, which doesn't apply to all.




I'm well aware of Sasuke's feats with the Cursed Seal. Hiruzen's Goton would destroy Hebi Sasuke as well. It's more potent that Deidara's explosion. Refer back to my previous post about the streams being spread out. 



> Bone forest is more subtle than an attack spat out of the mouth with obvious charge time.  Bone forest sprouts out from the opponent's footing if used close enough.  It's an apples to oranges comparison to liken dodging an elemental blast to bone forest.




Sawarabi no Mai is much larger in scale, making conventional escape more difficult than it would be for a forest of bones racing towards you. Sawarbi no Mai is anything but subtle, and like I pointed out in another thread, lacks any sort of speed hype. The reason Lee and Gaara were caught off guard is because they though Kimimaro was dead. He wasn't even visible when he used the attack.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Apparently not according to what FlamingRain just linked.



Databook says it in black and white. No debate.



Saru said:


> And no, A > B > C logic doesn't work like that. Lee was ostensibly too much for Gai because of his unpredictability in close quarters (hence the chapter's title: _Unpredictable!_). Gaara does not use close quarters; match ups are a thing.



Gaara was neither A, B, or C.



Saru said:


> Butterfly Choji almost died afterwards and was fighting a relatively slow, dumb opponent.



Probably not slow with CS boosts. 



Saru said:


> The other people you're mentioning are the standouts I literally just mentioned, so I don't know why you brought them up.



Maybe I brought them up because they're the Genin that beat the Sound 4, which is what we were talking about.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If you've got a complaint you ought to staple your fingers to your keyboard along with your Itachi/sound ninja associate fanaticism, _then_ try to say something.



What does this even mean?



Saru said:


> You left Gaara out of your equation. Base Gai is not Kage-level in the first place.



I never said he was. The point of that was to illustrate SRA Gaara no longer struggled with Jonin speed, and that he'd have to be outgunned with ninjutsu, which is something most ninja can't manage given his strong defense with sand armor and shields, ever-growing power the longer he remains alive outdoors.



FlamingRain said:


> Tayuya would have probably had an easier time with any other ninja that was on the SRA team than she did Shikamaru tbh.



Neji was also the _perfect_ match for Kidomaru's sniping and webs.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Ooh, "fanaticism." Aren't we the little politician.



Seemed like you were looking to go there, so...



> This is a theme. Neji is the _perfect_ match for Kidomaru's sniping and webs.



Okay...?


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## Saru (Mar 22, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Probably not slow with CS boosts.




Jirobo was slow before the CS2 boost, so whatever his speed was after activating CS2 was faster than slow. That increase in speed is kinda hard to measure when the only person he faced was Choji, don'tcha think?



> Maybe I brought them up because they're the Genin that beat the Sound 4, which is what we were talking about.




And that's why I singled out the individuals who were stronger than Kiba, Choji, Shikamaru, and non-KN0 Naruto. 



Sadgoob said:


> I never said he was. The point of that was to illustrate SRA Gaara no longer struggled with Jonin speed, and that he'd have to be outgunned with ninjutsu, which is something most ninja can't manage given his strong defense with sand armor and shields, ever-growing power the longer he remains alive outdoors.




That comparison doesn't quite work, though, because Gaara never faced a Jounin, so "Jounin speed" is not something that one can say Gaara struggled with. "Jounin speed" is also an ambiguous term.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

Saru said:


> Jugo was slow before the CS2 boost, so whatever his speed was after activating CS2 was faster than slow. That increase in speed is kinda hard to measure when the only person he faced was Choji, don'tcha think?



Faster than slow is all I'm saying.



Saru said:


> That comparison doesn't quite work, though, because Gaara never faced a Jounin



He faced someone that, according to you, is at the Jonin level. More accurately, Kimimaro is one of the best CQC ninja in the world, not just Joe Jonin at it, but whatever. Point being he wouldn't struggle with speed gap like in the CE.

I feel like we got off topic.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 22, 2016)

Strat, out of curiosity, how many Jōnin do you think there actually are in all of Konoha? 

I'd always considered them to be relatively small in number.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Strat, out of curiosity, how many Jōnin do you think there actually are in all of Konoha?
> 
> I'd always considered them to be relatively small in number.



Well the War Arc made us think there were about 10,000 ninja per village right? So I personally broke them down like this:

3000 Genin
6500 Chunin
500 Jonin

I basically imagined a Bell Curve, so the bulk of ninja would be in the middle range, and was then extra selective with the Jonin, only picking the top 5%. Do you imagine it would be smaller?

There's also a big variance in Jonin ability though, as we have seen when comparing pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi and the Rock Nobodies he fought to people like Darui, Asuma, etc. The latter group I call "Elite Jonin."

I'd say out of the 500 Jonin, there are only 30-ish "Elite Jonin." And the main cast is made up of prodigies and geniuses and whatever that are destined for this level. These are the Kage potentials. So maybe:

3000 - ranging from Bell Test Sakura to Dosu
6500 - ranging from Demon Brothers to CE Temari
470 - Kid Kakashi, CE Sasuke, Taiseki, etc. (ANBU fodder)
30 - ultra-elite famous or clan heads like Asuma, Kakashi, Choza, etc.

The interesting thing is the power progression. How would a tiny clan of Uchiha threaten a village 10,000 strong? It's because they had 20-25 people in the Elite Jonin category (Adult Jonin Uchiha with 3-tomoes,) and 1 Elite Jonin can decimate endless amounts of Genin, Chunin, and only struggle when up against multiple lesser Jonin (maybe like 3) at once, or another Elite Jonin. 

And then what of Kage? I think there is generally only one Kage level per village, maybe up to three at most. They can generally take on multiple Elite Jonin at a time, but not too many. Maybe like 2-3 for Low Kage.

So Konoha lost a very small number of ninja when killing the Uchiha, but it made up a huge chunk of their total power. This is also why the Uchiha believed they stood a chance. They had an almost equal number of Elite Jonin, and two Kage levels in the form of Shisui and Itachi. Once Hiruzen and the elites were picked off, the other 99.9% would fall easily. They wouldn't even have to be executed, they would just surrender after realizing their best had fallen and they were just lambs going to the slaughter.

Anyway, back-tracking, this also explains the Sound 4's prestige in the sound village. They're clearly going in the category with the 500, and are IMO in the Elite Jonin 30 like Kabuto actually. They're just less impressive than the top Konoha Elite Jonin, but still closer to them than to cats like kid Kakashi. Even the bottom Elite Jonin like Shikaku I can see losing to individual Sound 4.

Hope this lends insight into my interpretation of military power and distribution in ninja villages.


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## Bringer (Mar 22, 2016)

Ranking part 1 characters is hard, imo.

Beginning of series Naruto stomped on a Chunin Mizuki, so we can assume Naruto is Chunin level after learning shadow clone. 

Then during the Wave arc two mist Chunin get casually outdone by Sasuke, so he was probably Chunin level during wave arc.

So by then, Sasuke and Naruto weren't even bottom of the barrel Chunin, they were pretty solid Chunin IMO, and that was before they did chakra control training. 

Then Sasuke out does Haku who Kakashi and Zabuza hype a lot in close quarters, and then ice mirror comes out. Ice mirror overwhelms both Naruto and Sasuke... And then Sasuke activates Sharingan and Haku can't even hit Sasuke anymore. Haku then targets Naruto to get Sasuke out of the way...

Then Naruto goes K0 and low difs Haku. So 1 tomoe Sasuke and K0 Naruto? What are they? They still Chunin?

Later, weighted Lee beats the shit out of Sharingan Sasuke... So weighted Lee is way above Chunin. 

I could go on and on and on but I'm getting lazy... It feels like Naruto and Sasuke reached low Jounin level pretty early on, which feels weird because I imagine any Jounin smoking them low dif.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 22, 2016)

> I could go on and on and on but I'm getting lazy... It feels like Naruto and Sasuke reached low Jounin level pretty early on, which feels weird because I imagine any Jounin smoking them low dif.



Not Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, etc. Or fodder ANBU are probably low Jonin, as ANBU are the Hokage-selected ninja that are assigned the most difficult missions.

We were mostly only exposed to the top 1% of Jonin early in the manga. They were by no means the low bar any more than Minato is the low bar for Kage. Asuma, Kakashi, base Gai, etc. were all potential Kage candidates, top of the Jonin class in the village. (Think how Chojuro became Mizukage.)

We can see this in Asuma's hype once he came back as an Edo. The level of respect is unreal. He ain't no ordinary Jonin, nor were his peers.

Your view of part 1 and ranks versus level is correct, or I suppose I should say I agree wholeheartedly with it.


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## Bringer (Mar 22, 2016)

I always figured Kid Kakashi was promoted to Jounin because desperate war times or something. 

But yeah, you're right, we were introduced to the top of the barrel Jounin, which skewed my vision of what a Jounin is supposed to be.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru you believe Kn1 cloak > kimimaro defence 

Oh really 

 gotta disagree strongly there


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## Baroxio (Mar 23, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Ranking part 1 characters is hard, imo.
> 
> Beginning of series Naruto stomped on a Chunin Mizuki, so we can assume Naruto is Chunin level after learning shadow clone.
> 
> ...


Don't forget that Gaara's completion of the Forest of Death was also specifically stated to be something no current Chunin could reproduce, putting him solidly in Jounin tier. He's also survived direct assassination attempts on order of the Kazekage. Then there's the scene in the Chunin Exams where some people attempt to "force" him to lose. These people, to be threathening Chunin level ninja, would likely have to be Jounin level. Gaara completely annihilates them.

Speaking of the Chunin Exams, there's Neji. It was stated that most Jounin only know how to expel chakra from their hands, but Neji's mastery of Kaiten was something beyond most Jounin. After revealing 64 Palms he was stated to have even surpassed the Hyuga Main Family.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Yh that surpassing hyuuga family was heavily retcon 

Hiashi still showed to be more impressive in war arc after neji had improved tones since the chunin exams 

Part 2 simply retcon part 1 . For most characters to the point it's a little annoying


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## Matty (Mar 23, 2016)

Safe to say Kishi went full retard in pt 2 in some aspects


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Yup to the point some people on this thread don't even understand the full impact of his retcon and how senseless it's been


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yh that surpassing hyuuga family was heavily retcon
> 
> Hiashi still showed to be more impressive in war arc after neji had improved tones since the chunin exams



Eh, it's not necessarily a retcon. Surpassing the main family can mean surpassing a great deal of them. Hiashi was still implied to be superior, because he began training Neji after the CE, which is why Neji spiked so much in SRA.


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## ~M~ (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> He loses to literally all actual Kage.​



I don't see anyone's durability matching up to a pummel from Gai as long as they are similarly restricted to base as himself. IE Mei (if he gets in before AoE), Hiruzen (terrible durability), Kakashi (factually) etc...


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Faster than slow is all I'm saying.




But do you see my point about all of the Sound Four's best feats being dubious and against (at best) Chuunin? If Choji was Jounin level, he would have been promoted to the Jounin level. There is an entire clan of Akimichi, and I doubt that every single one of them is Jounin-level. Interestingly enough, Temari (who IMO was Chuunin level or low Jounin level at that time at best) didn't just beat Tayuya, she *stomped* her.



> He faced someone that, according to you, is at the Jonin level. More accurately, Kimimaro is one of the best CQC ninja in the world, not just Joe Jonin at it, but whatever. Point being he wouldn't struggle with speed gap like in the CE.




My point was that Gaara did not have a problem with the ambiguous "Jounin speed" beforehand. Lee's speed with the Gates opened is likely above that speed, and it's certainly above that speed when Lee has the Fifth Gate opened.

The fact that Kimimaro almost beat someone who was at the Jounin level (Gaara) is impressive and all, but again, that is not adequate justification for Kimimaro's placement at the Kage level--which is above the Jounin level. It's not like Kimimaro stomped them or anything. 




Icegaze said:


> Saru you believe Kn1 cloak > kimimaro defence
> 
> Oh really




Of course it is.

[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6].

Don't tell me you think that Kimimaro can survive the Juubi's Tenpenchii.

That's not a mere KN1 cloak by the way. Those cloaks were given to the Alliance by Kurama himself, and they have better feats that Naruto's KN1 cloak, so calling them that is a bit disingenuous.




~M~ said:


> I don't see anyone's durability matching up to a pummel from Gai as long as they are similarly restricted to base as himself. IE Mei (if he gets in before AoE)




That won't happen if the match starts at a reasonable starting distance (15m or so). Hidden Mist, GG. Gai cannot blitz Mei from 15 meters out before she can make a single hand seal.



> Hiruzen (terrible durability)




Hiruzen is a terrible match up for Base Gai. His staff would literally smash his nunchaku in half and threaten to smash Gai in half next. Gai is hardly better than Hiruzen in taijutsu at all, and in fact they have the same Databook score, so with Hiruzen's range advantage and superior weaponry (and the fact that Hiruzen can, you know, use things besides taijutsu, like Goton), he would beat Base Gai very handily.




> Kakashi (factually) etc...




Base Gai cannot beat Kakashi. Like, at all.

Doton, Paralyzing Bunshin feints, guided ninjutsu, Kamui, superior intelligence... Gai would lose horribly to Kakashi if he's fighting him in Base.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Why shouldn't Kimi survive it ? It is basically featless . You might as well claim because it's juubi he can't survive a punch from juubi since that also basically achieved nothing 

KN1 cloaks have tanked established fodder katon and a jutsu which seems to clear the field more than anything else 

All it did to KCM Naruto was a slight cut to the head . I got trouble believing KCM is so much more durable that his cut on the head translates to Kimi dying


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It is basically featless . You might as well claim because it's juubi he can't survive a punch from juubi since that also basically achieved nothing




There's literally nothing to debate. 

The Juubi's attack that it built up chakra for and made Kurama worried is obviously more potent than anything Kimimaro's tanked or has been implied to be able to.

It seems like you're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point. The reason Tenpenchii achieved nothing is because Naruto's cloaks were so durable.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

You use Kurama himself being worried about the attack as evidence, but then cite that people with a tiny fraction of Kurama's total chakra protecting them tanked it. That's bad, circular reasoning.

But then again, circular logic seems to be all the rage when talking about the Sound 5. "They're weak because Genma and Reido made them use CS2, and Genma and Reido were weak because they lost to the Sound 4."

Whereas more reasonable people noted they were both Minato and Tsunade's hand-selected guards, and the only ninja Minato personally taught Hiraishin. That says a lot more than rank, which is _often_ deceptive in denoting power.

The same rank-deception has people ignoring Neji's hype & databook that has his abilities _easily_ Jonin. Same for Butterfly Jonin. Same for Temari's ridiculously strong summon. Same for puppet ambushes (similarly got Edo Deidara.)

And the same rank-deception has people ignoring that Drunk Lee beat Gai, or that Kimimaro was hyped by both Kabuto and Orochimaru as being too much for any living part one Konoha ninja to handle. (In their opinion.)

And it sucks, because the BD would be _way_ more interesting if people didn't use that rank-deception to propagate an imaginary gap where any Jonin blitzes any of them. They _were_ Jonin level ninja.

The BD would be a much better place if we actually thought about how their cool abilities stack up like we do for other Jonin levels, because make no mistake, they are Jonin level. They're not getting blitzed by Asuma.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> You use Kurama being worried as proof, but then cite that people with a miniscule fraction of Kurama's total chakra protecting them tanked it. The two don't really go hand in hand.




Well, it would help to look at *all* of my points *in context* and not in isolation.


Kurama says that *the Juubi* (I'm sure I don't need to remind you how powerful the Juubi is) is *building up* chakra for something.
Kurama realizes what he's about to do and is worried (*note:* this is *not* the same thing as Kurama saying that _*he*_ would be injured *himself*).
The Juubi uses Tenpenchii and creates a mushroom cloud of devastation.
Madara has to use Susano'o to withstand the attack.
The Alliance is up against Guruguru's Goton with Kurama's chakra cloaks later, and Gurugru's attack is portrayed as a *threat* in spite of the chakra cloaks.

See how that's a more developed argument than "Kurama said that Tenpenchii would hurt him, and Kurama's chakra cloaks withstood Tenpenchii, so obviously Kurama's chakra cloaks are more durable than Kimimaro," or "Juubi > Kimimaro, so therefore Kimimaro can't tank his attacks?"

The implication of what you're trying to suggest I've lain out is:

Kurama's chakra cloaks *>* Kurama *>* Kimimaro

... In terms of durability.

If that's what you got out what I just stated, then I'm not sure how well you synthesized the points I laid out. You should address those points instead of attacking the BD at large and reducing my argument into "pulling rank" when it's more complex than that.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

I'm merely pointing out that your argument for why KN1 is "obviously" better than Kimimaro's durability is because Kurama was worried about the attack.

An attack that people with tiny fractions of his chakra endured without problem. So yeah, none of that indicates they have superior defenses to Kimimaro. Like Icegaze said, they survived an otherwise featless attack.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'm merely pointing out that your argument for why KN1 is "obviously" better than Kimimaro's durability is because Kurama was worried about the attack.




Kurama expressed concern in a general sense. He was aware that the Alliance and Naruto had his chakra cloaks protecting them, and he still found Tenpenchii to be a threat.

And that wasn't the full extent of the argument.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> And that wasn't the full extent of that argument.​



It was pretty much:



> The Juubi's attack that it built up chakra for and made Kurama worried is obviously more potent than anything Kimimaro's tanked or has been implied to be able to.



Get back to me when we see it turn un-cloaked people into juice like the Sand Coffin Kimimaro tanked, then I might say KN1 is an "obviously" better defense.

As it stands, it's a featless attack that was endured by KN1 cloaks.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> It was pretty much:
> 
> 
> 
> It has no actual feats outside of it being tanked by KN1 cloaks. So get back to me when we see it run normal people into juice like the Sand Coffin Kimimaro tanked.




It would seem that my assumption earlier on was correct: you have a preference for feats over statements and portrayal. 

I fundamentally disagree with the train of thought that places feats above all other forms of evidence provided by the manga, and I find it incredibly ironic that you would highlight a lack of feats in a discussion about Kimimaro's capabilities. The bulk of your argument is predicated on manga statements and other characters' feats rather than Kimimaro's own.​


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## Baroxio (Mar 23, 2016)

What's wrong for having a preference for feats, which are objective, over portrayal, which is subjective?


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Feats are actually subjective too, they're just *less* subjective than statements and portrayal.

I said that I disagreed with placing feats over statements, not that the practice was incorrect, and I also pointed out the hypocrisy in doing so in discussions about characters with relatively poor feats (i.e. the Sound Five).


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

The Sound 5 _don't_ have poor feats. I have no reason to believe Zabuza can handle Temari's weasel any better than CS2 Tayuya, for example. The speed and power it displayed was vastly higher than anything Zabuza ever displayed, and CS2 in general has feats and hype to put Tayuya's durability over Zabuza's.

Same goes for Zabuza and SRA Neji. SRA Neji is going to have better perception in the Mist than Kakashi did, and has superior taijutsu in both hype and databook stats (equal speed too.) He also has the ability to expel chakra from his entire body, unlike Kakashi, which allowed him to break the water prison.

And Kimimaro would just rape the fuck out of Zabuza in hype and feats. He's an entire tier higher in taijutsu, higher in speed, has amor and innate durability that can literally tank Zabuza's best attacks. And the water prison that beat Kakashi? Kimimaro's going to easily burst out of that with bones too. No CS needed.

I'd say I just rely less on the relationship between rank and power, because it's been proven wrong _countless_ times in the manga, and there's plenty of support for that. Baraxio, myself, and others have already brought up.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Same goes for Zabuza and SRA Neji.




These are *far* from Kage-level characters who do not support your argument sufficiently. Hence the need to use statements and portrayal in addition to feats to make a convincing argument.




> I'd say I just rely less on the relationship between rank and power, because it's been proven wrong countless times in the manga.




And I think that's understandable, but statements and portrayal can be equally pertinent to authorial intent. They should not be hand-waved.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> These are *far* from Kage-level characters who do not support your argument sufficiently.



I've _never_ said the Sound 4 were Kage level, only Jonin level. And not even Elite Jonin level, but high enough to where they don't get individually "trashed" by Jonin just because. It actually comes down to ability comparison.

And as a note, levels are only ball-parks. Some Jonin can beat some Kage because their abilities match weaknesses exceptionally well.

Kimimaro is the person I've argued for Kage level, and his hype from Kabuto and Orochimaru that no ninja in Konoha could stop him or that Orochimaru Konoha invasion wouldn't have had problems if he were there is sufficient hype. 

His feat of handling someone that beat Base Gai in base and Sawarabi no Mai is sufficient feats for him being Kage level. Mei, Hiruzen, Mifune, Chiyo, Hidan, etc. have no answer to that jutsu as far as I'm concerned.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I've _never_ said the Sound 4 were Kage level, only Jonin level. And not even Elite Jonin level, but high enough to where they don't get "trashed" by Jonin just because. It actually comes down to ability comparison.




Question: do you think that the Part II incarnations of the Sound Four's opponents (who were Chuunin by Part II) would be able to defeat them? Substitute Shino for Neji against Kidomaru. The manga is telling us that the SRA group were all at the Chuunin level three years after that incident.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> Question: do you think that the Part II incarnations of the Sound Four's opponents (who were Chuunin) would be able to defeat them? Substitute Shino for Neji against Kidomaru.



Most of the people that beat the Sound 5 were Jonin in rank by part two. In the end, it was Neji, Temari, Kankuro, Choji, and Gaara that beat the Sound 5. 

So aside from Choji and Gaara, they were all Jonin in rank. Gaara was a Kage. And Choji used a life-destroying jutsu to beat Jirobo that he used again in the War Arc to be _the_ force on the field (a battle with hundreds of Jonin present.)

Secondly, they might be Chunin in rank, but they weren't Chunin in level. Lee had a 5 in taijutsu could access Six Gates. Kiba had a 4.5 in speed. Choji was a Kage level force when using the same life-jutsu. Shikamaru beat Hidan. 

So definitely not Chunin level. None of them. All of them are going beat Kid Kakashi (pre-Sharingan,) and some of them are going to smoke him badly.

But to answer: Kidomaru would beat Shino, in my opinion. Choji wouldn't beat Jirobo without BM. Tayuya would beat Shikamaru with knowledge of Shikamaru's one trick, and CS2 immunity to it. Kiba would beat Sakon though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 23, 2016)

2 of the Sound 4 lost to 2 Genins who weren't elected to become Chuunin.
Just sayin.


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## Baroxio (Mar 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 2 of the Sound 4 lost to 2 Genins who weren't elected to become Chuunin.
> Just sayin.


Neji wasn't a Chunin. Shikamaru was.

Is Shikamaru stronger than Neji?


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Ok Saru if tenpachi is all that and cuz it's from the juubi why did it do no damage at all to V3 susanoo by a much much much weaker Madara compared to it ? It didn't even crack susanoo 

We have seen smaller attacks actually do more damage 

Does that mean juubi attack is weaker than danzo's ? Cuz danzo attack actually did something to susanoo 

Or does this mean Madara V3 can tank all attacks now because it tanked something the kyuubi was worried about ?

What does this also say about hiashi blocking juubi tail swipe , does that mean Kurama can't hope to breach his defence ?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 2 of the Sound 4 lost to 2 Genins who weren't elected to become Chuunin.



So did Shukaku.


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok Saru if tenpachi is all that and cuz it's from the juubi why did it do no damage at all to V3 susanoo by a much much much weaker Madara compared to it ? It didn't even crack susanoo




Madara was not the target of the attack, and his Susano'o is more durable that Kimimaro in the first place.

Next thing people are going to be claiming that Kimimaro can tank Kirin.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Yh shino would beat kidomaru 

I can't see how he won't


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> Madara was not the target of the attack, and his Susano'o is more durable that Kimimaro in the first place.
> 
> Next thing people are going to be claiming that Kimimaro can tank Kirin.​



But he was in the vicinity . The alliance weren't the target either 

It was Naruto 

Your argument just died in the water


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## Saru (Mar 23, 2016)

Tenpenchii is overkill for one target. What you're suggesting isn't logical.


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## Icegaze (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> Tenpenchii is overkill for one target. What you're suggesting isn't logical.



No what you are suggesting is 

Since your excuse for Madara tanking it is he wasn't the target 

Yet he was as close to it as the rest of the alliance was 

Read the manga , Naruto was the reason for the attack 

What you are claiming is that the cloaks got V3 susanoo durability either that or juubi attack was more of a kick up dust attack than actually something which could kill 

It has as little effect as katon did to the cloaks . That says how little it did


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## Sadgoob (Mar 23, 2016)

Saru said:


> Those characters were not Jonin in rank.



Neji, Temari, and Kankuro were all Jonin in rank.



Saru said:


> Gaara was not the Kazekage in Part I.



You asked about them in part II.



Saru said:


> The jutsu that Choji used in Part II (Calorie Control + Butterfly Bullet) was on an entirely different scale than the jutsu he used in Part I.



It's the same Butterfly Mode jutsu, he just uses it without pills.




Saru said:


> Kidomaru's chakra gets eaten.



Kidomaru doesn't get caught by the bugs in the first place, just like most ninja. You seem to arbitrarily say he won't even though he's faster than other Jonin like Shizune with the CS1.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2016)

@sadgoob
Kidomaru will get caught by the bugs obito couldn't escape them without Kamui 

Read what Kakashi said about them 

Kidomaru can't not get caught


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## Baroxio (Mar 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @sadgoob
> Kidomaru will get caught by the bugs obito couldn't escape them without Kamui
> 
> Read what Kakashi said about them
> ...


Who else would it catch?

Zabuza? Kakashi? Kabuto? Tsunade?

Would all of these people be defeated by Shino?


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## $Kakashi$ (Mar 24, 2016)

>Drunk lee gave gai a hard time

You people realize that
1. He would be more focused on stopping lee from destroying more than he already has 
2. Doesn't want to hurt lee
3. The Drunken Fist styles main advantage is its unpredictability, meaning that it would be far harder to subdue without hurting him


Have you people ever tried to talk a drunk person out of doing something? It's not that easy. Especially if you don't want to hurt them.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Who else would it catch?
> 
> Zabuza? Kakashi? Kabuto? Tsunade?
> 
> Would all of these people be defeated by Shino?



Kakashi got clones . As does zabuza , he can also use large suiton as can Kakashi 

Kabuto in part 1 can dig under ground and attack shino directly , or control dead bodies and spread shino thin . Dead bodies not ET there is a difference , refer to part 1 to fill memory gaps 

Tsunade simply got too much chakra to be drained but she won't avoid it . Or she can summon Katsuyu 

Why mention such high level people and kidomaru in the same post ? 

Am confused


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## Saru (Mar 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Neji, Temari, and Kankuro were all Jonin in rank.




In Part II, yes. But not when they fought the Sound Four. In the end, none of the people who fought the Sound Four were Jounin.





> It's the same Butterfly Mode jutsu, he just uses it without pills.




Did I say anything to the contrary? I said he used it on a different *scale*.





> Kidomaru doesn't get caught by the bugs in the first place, just like most ninja. You seem to arbitrarily say he won't even though he's faster than other Jonin like Shizune with the CS1.




He's not going to outrun those bugs any better than Obito did. Unlike Jounin, Kidomaru doesn't have a counter for Shino's jutsu because Kidomaru is a Chuunin at best. Spiders webs? Shino's bugs eat chakra and can slip through them, and they can also disperse on Shino's command. Shizune has Poison Fog to kill the bugs, but she wouldn't escape so easily either, so I'm not sure why you brought her up. The point is, Jounin can deal with threats like Shino's bugs far more easily than Kidomaru can.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 24, 2016)

Saru said:


> In Part II, yes. But not when they fought the Sound Four. In the end, none of the people who fought the Sound Four were Jounin.



Did you not ask me about them rematching the Sound 4 in part II?



Saru said:


> He's not going to outrun those bugs any better than Obito did.



Do you believe Obito couldn't avoid it without Kamui? That's an extremely formidable offense if that's the case, because Obito's one of the faster and more reflexive characters.


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2016)

@sadgoob

Kakashi specifically said obito could not out run them or physically evade them

To which shino followed up on . Even if you run away they chase you down and they spread out. Try avoiding rain 

You can't 

Doesn't make it formidable though loads of people can deal with it . Kidomaru isn't one of them . Kimimaro can for example


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## Saru (Mar 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Did you not ask me about them rematching the Sound 4 in part II?




Of course I did. Look at the way your post was organized. There was a subtle attempt to blend the ranks of those characters with their Part I incarnations, or make it seem like they were already at the Jounin level when they fought the Sound Four. That's what it looked like from the way the post was organized.

"Secondly, they might be Chunin in rank, but they weren't Chunin in level... "



> Do you believe Obito couldn't avoid it without Kamui? That's an extremely formidable offense if that's the case, because Obito's one of the faster and more reflexive characters.




Either Obito couldn't avoid the bugs (as Kakashi stated and as the Databook entry suggests), or Obito decided to say fuck it and use Kamui. I think the former is more likely. As I stated, characters who are Jounin-level+ have counters to that jutsu. Doton, any kind of large AoE ninjutsu to attack the bugs and Shino simultaneously, ranged offense, high speed, etc.

Jirobo can counter it with his Doton, for example.

Kiba can use Gatsuga and ignore it.

Tenten has the Banana Fan.

Kurenai can use genjutsu.

C can use genjutsu.

Shizune has Poison Fog, as mentioned.

Lee can open the Gates and ignore them.

Zabuza can use massive AoE ninjutsu and is already faster than Shino without having to use power-ups.

Hidan can attack Shino with his scythe, which can extend, thereby interrupting Shino's communication, and he's also faster than Shino.

Asuma can attack Shino with his Katon and Fuuton and is much faster in the first place.

So no. It's not that formidable.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2016)

For me it's massively inaccurate to claim sound 4 operate at jounin level considering 

Chouji who can punch back GM is a chunin

Neji half contributed to slapping juubi tail away which puts him easily on the level of being able to physically repell bijuu yet he is but a jounin 

We saw kiba and shino performance , we saw Hinata performance against deva path and we know about her technique 

If most of the people here are just chunin despite their performance then kidomaru and the rest of the sound 4 are just chunin and fight at chunin level considering I think Hinata can beat any of the 4 with moderate difficulty


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 24, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Neji wasn't a Chunin. Shikamaru was.
> 
> Is Shikamaru stronger than Neji?



Thats not a good argument but in this case I'd say it depends. Neji would lose to Tayuya and Shikamaru would lose to Kidomaru.

From a portrayal standpoint though,  you weren't supposed to see sound 4 anything more than Chuunin levels, because Konoha kids were bordering on that level or below.



Sadgoob said:


> So did Shukaku.



Naruto had help from a summon who was much stronger than he was.


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## Baroxio (Mar 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> For me it's massively inaccurate to claim sound 4 operate at jounin level considering
> 
> Chouji who can punch back GM is a chunin
> 
> ...


Chouji who can punch back GM is a chunin.

...How many Jounin can replicate what he did, exactly?

This rank thing is getting way out of hand.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 24, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto had help from a summon who was much stronger than he was.



Kuchiyose is part of a ninja's power.

Temari also relied on a summon stronger than herself, by the way.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 24, 2016)

Saru said:


> Or make it seem like they were already at the Jounin level when they fought the Sound Four.



That was my point. Neji had a 4.5 in the strongest taijutsu style, and a 4 in speed. Butterfly Choji was physically stronger than Tsunade, and faster too. Temari destroyed an entire forest instantly. Chunin level? Nah.



Saru said:


> Lee can open the Gates and ignore them.



Are the bugs faster than SRA Neji (4 in speed?)



Saru said:


> Zabuza can use massive AoE ninjutsu



As can Kidomaru. How does Shino avoid the webs?



Saru said:


> Hidan can attack Shino with his scythe, which can extend, thereby interrupting Shino's communication, and he's also faster than Shino.



Hidan is slower than SRA Neji in the DB.



Saru said:


> So no. It's not that formidable.



A seeking attack that can't be dodged by a speedster is formidable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 24, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Kuchiyose is part of a ninja's power.


Thats up to debate, and I strongly disagree.



> Temari also relied on a summon stronger than herself, by the way.



Sure, and she oneshot Tayuya with 0 difficulty.


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2016)

PTS Choji stronger and faster than Tsuande? That is fucking fan fiction right there.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Chouji who can punch back GM is a chunin.
> 
> ...How many Jounin can replicate what he did, exactly?
> 
> This rank thing is getting way out of hand.



But chouji is a chunin though

It ain't about people being able to replicate what he did . It's about his fighting ability . His specific ability allowed him to do that 

Hiashi deflected juubi tail 

Juubi >>>>>>>> GM

Hiashi is a jounin 

Kitsuchi is a jounin he could pin down the juubi. So what chouji did ends up not being very impressive 

Genin Naruto could have summoned bunta do attempt the same thing on GM


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

@grimm

Does that mean crow clones isn't part of itachi power ? 

Cuz he summons crows to do that


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## Itachі (Mar 25, 2016)

> Chiyo



She scratches him and he dies.



> Hidan



He scratches him and he dies.



> Old Hiruzen



Hiruzen beats him up with Enma, low difficulty. 



> Darui



Darui electrocutes him.



> Mifune



Mifune should have the ability to slice him up, in my opinion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> 
> Does that mean crow clones isn't part of itachi power ?
> 
> Cuz he summons crows to do that



Irrelevant.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Lol why is it irrelevant 

Goes to show your bias . When it's itachi and he summons it's part of his power 

When it's not said power doesn't belong to the summoner 

Despite the summoning being their technique and using their chakra 

Oh the bias

Crow clones allow itachi to use clone distractions with a lot less chakra than kage bunshin all the while being able to cast genjutsu . It's added value to itachi same way any summon is added value to the summoner 

Hope you don't believe enma isn't part of hiruzen power


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol why is it irrelevant
> 
> Goes to show your bias . When it's itachi and he summons it's part of his power
> 
> ...



Irrelevant because you are trying to take things out of context and trying to make this personal by bringing in Itachi who is one of the least summon reliant  shinobi and who also has nothing to do with this thread. But whatever I'll reply just so we can be done with it.

And while we are at it, let me say this. You are an extremely biased individual yourself, so I absolutely have no idea why you keep calling others "biased" even when it is totally uncalled for. I think you should tone it down a little, especially when you consider those kinds of remarks don't add anything to the debate itself. 

Itachi's crows aren't sentient beings like Gamabunta. They are just tools Itachi implements into his own jutsu. Crow clone is fully operated by Itachi. Crows on their own have no combat potential other than serving as distractions. 

This obviously can't be compared to Naruto's case with Gamabunta, as Naruto absolutely had no control over him, and Gamabunta was stronger than Naruto @ that point, so Gamabunta clearly wasn't the true representation of Naruto's power. 

Sasuke, for example, using snakes as meat shields is also different than the case with Gamabunta, as the snakes sentience does not factor in. They don't exchange information, they don't strategize and act on their own will.  They are used like tools. 

There is a clear distinction between an alliance and total obedience. A kunai has total obedience, you can do whatever you want with it. It bends to your will completely.
Thats why I said it is up to debate. It depends on how the summon is used.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

@grimm 

I am arguing against your bias logic where itachi is concerned it's his power . Regardless of his reliance . Therefore same for everyone else . Can't apply 1 logic to your fav character and a different one to everyone else 

Would you say Kakashi dogs aren't part of his power ?

<_snip_>

 prove they aren't sentient beings . I knew one excuse or the other would come up . So he summoned them and left them with Sasuke all the while controlling them ??? Statements that prove they aren't sentient . No summon so far can be assumed to be unless stated so 

Did Naruto summon bunta ? If so then bunta is his power and bunta did as he was told . Might as well claim kyuubi ain't Madara power while we at it 

But the snakes have minds of their own . Them being used as shields is willing . When Sasuke forced a snake out of character he genjutsu' d it . Poor example there 

Bunta was used as a shield to tank Shukaku wind blast though 

As stated in the manga and shown a summon is always part of summoner power. Whether forcibly controlled or willingly agreeing 

Some summons are just a lot stronger than others is all 

Frog stomach is a summon , would that be any more part of Jiriaya power than bunta is ? Because it simply does 1 thing ? 

Itachi crows are no different from the snakes that come off snake hands . Never implied to be different however their application is for distraction and surprise attacks 

Aoba can summon crows to btw. Are his sentient ?


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 25, 2016)

Let's keep this civil, please.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

It is civil
The excuse that a summon isn't part of the summoner power when he summons it unaided 

Is well strange because surely somehow itachi crow are part of his power despite the fact that with them he can pull off feints with far less chakra which is a massive add to his abilities 

Though where itachi is concerned one applies wooden glasses


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## Saru (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> That was my point. Neji had a 4.5 in the strongest taijutsu style, and a 4 in speed. Butterfly Choji was physically stronger than Tsunade, and faster too. Temari destroyed an entire forest instantly. Chunin level? Nah.




Butterfly Choji was not stronger and faster than Tsunade. I almost think you're joking with me now. 

Temari lol-diffed Tayuya, so even if we assume she was at the Jounin level at that point, what does that say about Tayuya? 




> Are the bugs faster than SRA Neji (4 in speed?)




Given that Kakashi said escape wasn't possible, I'm gonna go ahead and say *yes, the bugs are fast enough to catch a Chuunin*.





> As can Kidomaru. How does Shino avoid the webs?




No, he can't. Those webs are made of chakra. Guess what Shino's bugs eat?

Chakra-infused webs without chakra are just webs. They're nothing more than a sticky nuisance.

And, as I stated, there are gaps in Kidomaru's webs that Shino's bugs can slip through.





> Hidan is slower than SRA Neji in the DB.




What does that have to do with Hidan being able to beat Shino?




> A seeking attack that can't be dodged by a speedster is formidable.




For someone on the Chuunin level, yes.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Btw sadgoob

Hidan shits on kidomaru

The guy was fighting asuma while avoiding shikamaru shadow sewing . Do you know how huge Hidan shadow was ? His own shadow + that of his scythe . Yet he could move quick enough to fight asuma while avoiding it 

Sorry but kidomaru or any of the sound 4 even evading his first strike is hilarious . Hidan is shit don't get me wrong but these guys are weaker than war arc Hinata


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## Itachі (Mar 25, 2016)

Think what Grimm is saying makes sense in all honesty, although I don't agree with everything. Orochimaru's tiny snakes that he summons are different from Manda, same for Sasuke & Kabuto. J-Man doesn't sacrifice countless toads to shield himself like Orochimaru does, Itachi hasn't done so either. However, then you got extremely powerful summons like the Kyubi, Kyubi very much has a mind of its own but when the Sharingan comes into play it's a different story. Summons are not part of a character's own and actual power yeah, but it's really no different than an Uchiha's Mangekyo or Obito's Senju DNA. Such things add to power, regardless of whether they require a high amount of skill to acquire.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> 
> I am arguing against your bias logic where itachi is concerned it's his power . Regardless of his reliance . Therefore same for everyone else . Can't apply 1 logic to your fav character and a different one to everyone else
> 
> ...



Again, you are ignoring the context. I made my case for Itachi and other similar instances and explained why it is different than Naruto summoning Gamabunta. You keep saying the same thing like a broken record without any attempt to explain your reasoning.

Kyuubi is again different case as Madara controls it like a robot and uses it in conjunction with his ultimate technique. More like he uses Kyuubi to empower his own ultimate technique.

Do you think it is the same thing with Jiraiya summoning Ma & Pa and asking them for advice and winning the battle based on the intel and observations he got from them with a technique that had nothing to do with him ?

Obviously not. 

Where does it say in the manga that summons represent a shinobi's power ?


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

The part where the summoner summons his summon and the summon has always done as told or made to do as told 

If you fight for me . Your part of my fighting Arsenal . regardless of your individuality 

So a summon is a summon . Some are more useful and stronger than l
Others 

If itachi had a stronger summon he would use it . And it would be part of his power . Because it requires his chakra to bring it to the battlefield

You have yet to answer if toad stomach is part of Jiriaya power or not . And if it is then why wouldn't bunta be part of it 

Does bunta not require his chakra to even appear on the battlefield ?


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> Butterfly Choji was not stronger and faster than Tsunade.



By feats he was. CS2 Jirobo easily threw Choji high in the air when Choji was _much_ bigger than Gamabuta's sword that Tsunade lifted. Butterfly Choji easily then stopped CS2 Jirobo's punch with 0% chakra helping his strength.

Choji also flash-stepped CS2 Jirobo, someone with reflex boosting senjutsu chakra. Who did Tsunade flash-step with speed? I only remember her failing to hit Kabuto with 3.5 speed until she was exhausted.

Kabuto being that guy that was intercepted by Base Naruto with broken legs, since you buy into interception feats. But then again, Base Naruto with broken legs was saving Tsunade there, so I guess that says enough.



Saru said:


> Temari lol-diffed Tayuya, so even if we assume she was at the Jounin level at that point, what does that say about Tayuya?



What evidence is there that Temari's summon wouldn't low diff Zabuza or Kurenai or Kabuto if brought out against them? Are they more durable than CS2? They have meh speed in the DB. And inferior speed feats to the weasel.



Saru said:


> yes, the bugs are fast enough to catch a Chuunin.





Saru said:


> For someone on the Chuunin level, yes.



They're not Chunin level. There's no evidence that Kid Kakashi without the Sharingan is better than CE Sasuke. His inferior performance to 2-tomoe Obito, _who is less than CE Sasuke in the databooks and feats_, indicates the opposite. 

So they met the cut-off for Jonin combat level, easily. The sooner you accept that, the sooner we'll get somewhere in this conversation. If your cut-off for Jonin level is much higher, then recalibrate, because you're wrong.


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## Saru (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> By feats he was. And there's no denying it.




You keep saying stuff and providing absolutely zero evidence to back it up, then complaining about "ranks," so what panels are you referring to? Claims like *SRA Butterfly Choji* is stronger than *Tsunade* can't even be taken seriously, especially when not backed by evidence or explanation.

I don't know if you noticed, but you're in the minority opinion here with regards to the Sound Four and SRA Group's strength, so you're going to have make a _very_ thorough and convincing argument.



> Give me evidence that Temari's summon, which destroyed a forest in an instant, wouldn't low diff Zabuza if brought out against him immediately. Is Zabuza more durable than CS2 Tayuya? Is Zabuza fast enough to cut up a forest in an instant?




Zabuza has massive scale Suiton that can be used to attack Temari from long range. So no, Temari wouldn't low-diff Zabuza.




> There you go with rank nonsense again.




Kishimoto didn't hold the SRA Group in a regard that was remotely as high as you seem to.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

@sadgoob honestly whether it's ignoring my posts or glancing at Saru 

We saying the same thing sound 4 can't be jounin cut off at all 

When chouji in war arc was a chunin . By part 2 even before BM feat he could multisize by himself something he needed pills in part 1 to do 

Yet was only considered a chunin . I honestly don't see how part 2 rookie ranks are being ignored here . 

Hinata despite her performance was a chunin . She is ranked as a chunin because she fights at a chunin level 

Having out liners like Naruto and Sasuke doesn't suddenly mean we should take them as the norm


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @sadgoob honestly whether it's ignoring my posts or glancing at Saru
> 
> We saying the same thing sound 4 can't be jounin cut off at all
> 
> ...



Naruto was a Genin when he beat Jubito, Itachi was a Chunin when he beat Orochimaru, etc. That doesn't change the fact that we've seen weaker Jonin levels that attained the Jonin rank, and are therefore Jonin level.

You might as well argue that Mei isn't Kage level because she's weak for a Kage. She still attained the Kage title, is therefore Kage level, and that's the bar.

Does that make Jonin like Kakashi, Gai, etc. that can beat Mei not Kage level? Because I'm applying the exact same logic. What you're saying is "Gai is not a Kage, so Sasori is not Kage level. Even if Mei's a Kage."

The problem is Saru is using an interception feat, the same type that had part one Base Naruto with a broken leg being faster than an Elite Jonin, to make a "level gap" for all people with the Jonin rank. Which is wrong.


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## Saru (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> By feats he was. CS2 Jirobo easily threw Choji high in the air when Choji was _much_ bigger than Gamabuta's sword that Tsunade lifted. Butterfly Choji easily then stopped CS2 Jirobo's punch with 0% chakra helping his strength.




And Tsunade would not be able to do these things because... ?

Tsunade has incredible raw strength _already_ (same score as Jirobo BTW) and she uses chakra to enhance it _even further_, much like Jirobo uses the Cursed Seal.



> Choji also flash-stepped CS2 Jirobo, someone with reflex boosting senjutsu chakra. Who did Tsunade flash-step with speed? I only remember her failing to hit Kabuto with 3.5 speed until she was exhausted.




Unimpressive (relative to Tsunade). Jirobo was slower than Tsunade to begin with, and CS2 isn't making him a speedster. 




> They're not Chunin level. There's no evidence that Kid Kakashi without the Sharingan is better than CE Sasuke. His inferior performance to 2-tomoe Obito, _who is less than CE Sasuke in the databooks and feats_, indicates the opposite.




They're Chuunin level _after_ the timeskip, which you seem to be conveniently ignoring. Temari was a Jounin after the timeskip, but she smoked Tayuya with zero difficulty and was also somewhat of a prodigy. Neji was fighting the worst opponent he could possibly face and still won, but he wasn't at the Jounin level until after the timeskip either.




> The problem is Saru is using an interception feat, the same type that had part one Base Naruto with a broken leg being faster than an Elite Jonin, to make a "level gap" for all people with the Jonin rank. Which is wrong.




I was not arguing merely about feats; I was arguing about portrayal as well.
​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> The part where the summoner summons his summon and the summon has always done as told or made to do as told
> 
> If you fight for me . Your part of my fighting Arsenal . regardless of your individuality
> 
> ...



So what you are saying here is that Zabuza and Haku represent Gato's power ? Because he bought their services with cash instead of chakra.

Also Itachi says that other people's power isn't your power : 

boosting

Probably in response to this : boosting

So no again, you have no valid reason to claim that summoning a sentient *ally* and fighting *alongside *them is the same as using a summon like a tool that completely bends to your will and skill.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Naruto was a Genin when he beat Jubito, Itachi was a Chunin when he beat Orochimaru, etc. That doesn't change the fact that we've seen weaker Jonin levels that attained the Jonin rank, and are therefore Jonin level.
> 
> You might as well argue that Mei isn't Kage level because she's weak for a Kage. She still attained the Kage title, is therefore Kage level, and that's the bar.
> 
> ...



Again naming outliners doesn't help your case . The rookies aren't outliners or even important characters yet despite their feats which easily surpass that of the sound 4 most of them were chunin in the war 

So it's false to say sound 4 fought at jounin level when what they are capable of is beneath the rookie chunins in the war 

That's my logic 

Chouji despite his BM mode is a chunin 

Him being able to beat fodder jounin is nice and all but hardly relevant 

Can he beat any named jounin though ?


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So what you are saying here is that Zabuza and Haku represent Gato's power ? Because he bought their services with cash instead of chakra.
> 
> Also Itachi says that other people's power isn't your power :
> 
> ...



Can he summon them instantly to where he is at any time with his cash ?

Poor comparison 

Good effort though


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> And Tsunade would not be able to do these things because... ?



And Healthy Itachi would not be able to do those things _because?_ That's what I'm hearing. No evidence, just assumptions based on bias. Gai, Kisame, and other people with 5 in strength don't get to do it just because. 



Saru said:


> Unimpressive (relative to Tsunade). Jirobo was slower than Tsunade to begin with, and CS2 isn't making him a speedster.



Tsunade never did anything impressive speed-wise. Even in part two, after getting in fighting shape, she was only 3.5. It's likely she was slower than CS2 Jirobo, let alone the guy blitzing behind CS2 Jirobo. 



Saru said:


> They're Chuunin level _after_ the timeskip



No, they're not. They're Chunin in rank, but not in level. Lee had a 5 in taijutsu, a 4.5 in speed and strength, and could access Six Gates. Herpa derpa lerpa, he was a Chunin level because he was Chunin in rank. 



Saru said:


> Temari was a Jounin after the timeskip, but she smoked Tayuya with zero difficulty and was also somewhat of a prodigy.



She used an incredibly powerful summon to do so. The same way Naruto beat a tailed beast. So why you don't show me evidence that Jonin Kabuto would do any better against her summon than he would agaist Gamabuta.



Saru said:


> Neji was fighting the worst opponent he could possibly face and still won, but he wasn't at the Jounin level until after the timeskip either.



Are you _kidding_ me? You can't honestly think that. Neji was the only one with 359 degree vision to counter sniping and full body chakra expulsion to counter webs. He was a beautiful, _beautiful_ match up against Kidomaru.

Kidomaru effectively defeated the entire team if not for Neji. As did Jirobo if not for coordinated teamwork by the team in the prison. Base Sakon easily beat down CE Sasuke. What feats are there for Kabuto doing that?



Saru said:


> I was not arguing merely about feats; I was arguing about portrayal as well.



You're arguing _solely_ by portrayal, because you have no feats to back up your claim. And frankly, the portrayal argument is weak as well, because the Sound 4 were stated to be able to kill Kakashi with just 1-2 of them.

Shizune, Tsuande's right hand Jonin, was freaking out and didn't know how they could be defeated. The two ninja they defeated were Tsunade and Minato's royal guards, and the only ones to learn Hiraishin. 

They said the Sound 4 were beyond the arts of shinobi, and that Shizune, the Jonin apprentice of Tsunade, stood zero chance against them if she went after them, even after the Sound 4 fought them. 

So go ahead, man. Show me portrayal equal to that. Show me where Kakashi is portrayed to be able to "trash" a group that Shizune, another Jonin with DB speed equal to Zabuza, stands no chance against. Show me, then I'll concede.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

What's jirobo speed stat ? 2? 
Lol 

So he is somehow faster than tsunade ?


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## Itachі (Mar 25, 2016)

Yeah, it's 2.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

So chouji blitz someone who has a 2 in stat 

Oh wow Genin BM chouji was so fast


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## FlamingRain (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Well the War Arc made us think there were about 10,000 ninja per village right? So I personally broke them down like this:
> 
> 3000 Genin
> 6500 Chunin
> ...



Anko was a special Jōnin yet in chapter 50 Orochimaru implied that Konoha would have taken a noteworthy hit if someone of her rank had been killed or something, and when Hiruzen called a meeting over Hayate there weren't that many other ninja present at all (I'd assumed it was a Jōnin-meeting considering who was there and what the topics were)- there were about twenty-four there besides the Hokage and advisors if the number of ninja per row was similar. At least one fourth of those were ninja we already knew about, so you could take the list of Jōnin we were aware of and add eighteen.

Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, Shibi, Inoichi, Shikaku, Choza, Ibiki, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Aoba, Hayate, Ebisu, Tsume = 16 + 18 = 34.

Counting Hiashi and assuming a few others were working on missions or something I would have guesstimated that there were at least fifty, but likely not more than one hundred Jōnin. 10,000 was a larger number of ninja than I had originally expected were in Konoha, however I'd imagined that Jōnin constituted like 1~2% of the ninja force already- so still 100-200.



> There's also a big variance in Jonin ability though, as we have seen when comparing pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi and the Rock Nobodies he fought to people like Darui, Asuma, etc. The latter group I call "Elite Jonin."



I think another difference is what you call "_top elite Jōnin"_ I would simply call _"elite Jōnin"_, and the other of the 30 you're calling _"elite"_ I would simply be calling _"Jōnin"_.



> I'd say out of the 500 Jonin, there are only 30-ish "Elite Jonin." And the main cast is made up of prodigies and geniuses and whatever that are destined for this level. These are the Kage potentials.



It'd be one thing if we were talking about Genin and Chūnin ranks, but the Jōnin rank in and of itself is something that _already_ requires a ninja to be a standout to acquire (Jōnin translates to "_high_ (or _'elite'_) ninja" and they're stated in the guidebooks to be the ninja who have reached the _peak_ of the ninja forces), so _at that point_ I wouldn't automatically assume the named characters were likely at a level that's particularly special even for their rank. The fact that they even have that rank informs you that they're particularly special as a ninja.

Btw: If there are 30ish elite Jōnin then you have to admit what I said a while ago (like a different thread) about how a character being fodder doesn't have anything to do with their capability, because Kishi didn't even introduce 30 relevant Jōnin to begin with.



> Anyway, back-tracking, this also explains the Sound 4's prestige in the sound village.



What prestige are you referring to?

If by "_prestige"_ you mean their status as bodyguards of a village leader, I think that would be best explained by their emphasized barrier skills- those seem ideal for such a role.

If there's something else, though...


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So chouji blitz someone who has a 2 in stat
> 
> Oh wow Genin BM chouji was so fast



The DB accounts for base Jirobo. CS boosts speed by a lot. Sasuke compared CS1 to having the 3-tomoe Sharingan, which allowed him to easily take down KN0, someone that had been blitzing him badly prior.

To put this in perspective, Sasuke had (3.5) + the 2-tomoe and was being _thrashed_ by KN0 speed. So that KN0 likely had 4.5 or 5 in raw speed. Then Sasuke dominated. So that gives you an idea of the reflex boost.

Additionally, Jirobo easily caught Neji (4) in his jutsu, which is more impressive than Tsunade failing to catch Kabuto (3.5) until exhaustion. But again, if you have a Tsunade feat for me showing superior speed to BM Choji, I'm all ears.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Anko was a special Jōnin yet in chapter 50 Orochimaru implied that Konoha would have taken a noteworthy hit if someone of her rank had been killed or something



I don't remember this, but I believe you. However, as I have been arguing _ad nauseum_, a ninja's worth is not determined by their rank. Orochimaru may have known that her value was closer to Elite Jonin, and with her Curse Seal, that may well have been true. CS1 Anko probably isn't a joke.



FlamingRain said:


> and when Hiruzen called a meeting over Hayate there weren't that many other ninja present at all (I'd assumed it was a Jōnin-meeting considering who was there and what the topics were)- there were about twenty-four there besides the Hokage and advisors if the number of ninja per row was similar. At least one fourth of those were ninja we already knew about, so you could take the list of Jōnin we were aware of and add eighteen. Kakashi, Gai, Asuma, Kurenai, Shibi, Inoichi, Shikaku, Choza, Ibiki, Anko, Genma, Raidō, Aoba, Hayate, Ebisu, Tsume = 16 + 18 = 34.



This adds up to my expectation of about 30-ish "Elite Jonin."



FlamingRain said:


> Counting Hiashi and assuming a few others were working on missions or something I would have guesstimated that there were at least fifty, but likely not more than one hundred Jōnin. 10,000 was a larger number of ninja than I had originally expected were in Konoha, however I'd imagined that Jōnin constituted like 1~2% of the ninja force already- so still 100-200.



10,000 was a much larger number than I expected from reading part one, but that's what it is apparently. I could see there only being 200 Jonin total, but we both agree that there are only 30-ish Elite Jonin. 

The lesser Jonin are more like CE Lee. Capable of blitzing countless Chunin fodder like the Demon Bros with zero difficulty, but still not really standing up to Asuma or his ilk. It's an awkward middle ground.

The highlighted characters are all geniuses or heirs to presitigious military families, unlike the the other 9,900 Konoha ninja not highlighted. The fodder. So their rank doesn't necessarily denote their level.



FlamingRain said:


> It'd be one thing if we were talking about Genin and Chūnin ranks, but the Jōnin rank in and of itself is something that _already_ requires a ninja to be a standout to acquire (Jōnin translates to "_high_ (or _'elite'_) ninja" and they're stated in the guidebooks to be the ninja who have reached the _peak_ of the ninja forces)



But it's relative. Of a fighting force of 10,000 with the bulk being average fodder like Demon Brothers, then people like Kid Kakashi, CE Sasuke, etc. would be the peak among the 10,000. Just not the Elite 30 that the Hokage meets with.



FlamingRain said:


> What prestige are you referring to?
> 
> If by "_prestige"_ you mean their status as bodyguards of a village leader, I think that would be best explained by their emphasized barrier skills- those seem ideal for such a role. If there's something else, though...



Guarding the most important figure in a village is prestigious in itself, especially when you consider the type of ninja that's assigned to assassinate Kage levels. They're expected to guard against Elite Jonin or Kage levels. 

(Look at the Kage body guards in part two, at the Summit.)

Additionally, we saw that Orochimaru only awarded his Curse Seal to ninja with extraordinary potential, and only a small portion of those survived. Compared to the 10,000 village force, the Sound 4 are obviously near the peak.

Hell, just their name. "The Sound Four" referred to by Kabuto and Orochimaru is prestigious in itself, and they used to be "The Five" with Kimimaro, someone we know Kabuto and Orochimaru respect _immensely_.

They're the Sound Village elite, no way around it. Could they individually beat the Konoha elite? Tayuya thought so. Sakon thought it would take two of them to take down Kakashi. It's still elite though.

Shizune, an elite, was told that she stood zero chance against the Four, even after they expended energy to swiftly defeat two other guards of the Kage, something that Shizune asked "_How?!_" could happen.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> The DB accounts for base Jirobo. CS boosts speed by a lot. Sasuke compared CS1 to having the 3-tomoe Sharingan, which allowed him to easily take down KN0, someone that had been blitzing him badly prior.
> 
> To put this in perspective, Sasuke had (3.5) + the 2-tomoe and was being _thrashed_ by KN0 speed. So that KN0 likely had 4.5 or 5 in raw speed. Then Sasuke dominated. So that gives you an idea of the reflex boost.
> 
> Additionally, Jirobo easily caught Neji (4) in his jutsu, which is more impressive than Tsunade failing to catch Kabuto (3.5) until exhaustion. But again, if you have a Tsunade feat for me showing superior speed to BM Choji, I'm all ears.



So give Cs2 jirobo a speed stat 

Am just curious as to what you would come up with 

Also note tsunade has much much better speed feats but it's shocking you don't know this

Kicking rib cage Madara after Mei suiton . Intercepting manda who was just called fast and is a huge snake 

That's 2 . Off the top of my head

Btw do you think byakuyo boosts tsunade speed ?


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## Itachі (Mar 25, 2016)

Jirobo has impressive strength feats but I see no reason as to why Tsunade shouldn't be able to replicate those.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So give Cs2 jirobo a speed stat
> 
> Am just curious as to what you would come up with



I'd give Jirobo a 3.0 or 3.5 speed with the CS boost. And I was referring to part one Tsunade, before she trained for three years as Hokage. 

I'm well aware that part 2 Tsunade is a different beast, although the manga inflated in power in general by that time.



Icegaze said:


> Intercepting manda who was just called fast and is a huge snake



Interception feat.


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## Veracity (Mar 25, 2016)

Tsuande is slower than Jirobo now? Is this serious? Why is the DB taken THIS LITERAL now anyway when Out of shape Tsuande blitzed Shizune( 4 speed stat) and Oro( 4.5 speed stat)??? The amount of assumptions as to exactly how fast CC2 makes 2 speed stat Jirobo is also ludicrous given that CC2 doesn't even increase speed at that point. 

Does the Yin Seal also just not matter at all? I guess a massive influx of chakra in conjunction with CES, used to propel the individual at insane speeds would be a complete non factor when racing against somebody Chunin level Choji outpaced. Going even further, I like how this detail of speed enhancement is evidently given to Jirobo, but the fact that Tsuande is top tier in chakra control which clearly contributes to ones flicker prowess is completely overlooked. I do find it unlikely that this Chunin-leveled-low tier-bodyguard TO A SANNIN, would posses a superior flicker to ummmm... A Legendary Sannin/Hokage leveled shinobi with roof tier chakra control. 

But then the audacity to say that In-Shape Tsuande doesn't have any speed feats to compare to Jirubo like what? 
When she has: 
- striking speed equaling Ay's arm speed - who is the Raikage and was labeled as the fastest shinobi of his era
- movement speed equaling that off Onoki, who in turn was no slower than Deidara's flight speed
- speed fast enough to tag Sussano clones, who could capitalize on the smallest distractions to catch Ay clad in Raiton Armor. 
- speed to intercept katon projectiles faster than Mei, who could weave multiple seals in between Madara's Katon.


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'd give Jirobo a 3.0 or 3.5 speed with the CS boost. And I was referring to part one Tsunade, before she trained for three years as Hokage.
> 
> I'm well aware that part 2 Tsunade is a different beast, although the manga inflated in power in general by that time.
> 
> ...



So basically boosted jirobo you estimate at base tsunade speed 

Ok


----------



## Saru (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> And Healthy Itachi would not be able to do those things _because?_ That's what I'm hearing. No evidence, just assumptions based on bias. Gai, Kisame, and other people with 5 in strength don't get to do it just because.




Tsunade can match Jirobo based on her current feats. If you wish to believe that Jirobo is stronger simply because Tsunade's never lifted something that heavy, you're free to do so, but the limits of Tsunade's strength have never been tested. Jirobo's feat doesn't eclipse what Tsunade's done or her portrayal.




> Tsunade never did anything impressive speed-wise. Even in part two, after getting in fighting shape, she was only 3.5. It's likely she was slower than CS2 Jirobo, let alone the guy blitzing behind CS2 Jirobo.




See all of Tsunade's speed feats against Madara. Like, literally, all of them. They outclass what Butterfly Choji has done, let alone the slower Jirobo. Jumping at Madara and punching him after activating Byakugou, busting Susano'o open with a kick from out of _nowhere_ just after Ohnoki Backpack A had attacked Madara, leaping at Madara and getting close to him with his own Susano'o sword, etc...

There are two things you should be seeing here. The first is that Tsunade's feats are objectively more impressive. The second is that, from a portrayal standpoint, Tsunade is above the likes Choji or Jirobo in speed or just about any other category.




> No, they're not. They're Chunin in rank, but not in level. Lee had a 5 in taijutsu, a 4.5 in speed and strength, and could access Six Gates. Herpa derpa lerpa, he was a Chunin level because he was Chunin in rank.




You can keep saying that stating that until you're blue in the face, but it's not going to change Rock Lee's rank. *Kisihimoto* decided upon Rock Lee's strength by placing him within a ranking system where characters are ranked relative to their peers. Where Lee falls in that ranking system is an indication where Kishimoto believes Rock Lee's strength to lie.

If you want to revolt against the ranking system, that's fine, but just understand that that's the system that Kishimoto uses and that most of us are using to evaluate the Sound Four's strength.




> She used an incredibly powerful summon to do so. The same way Naruto beat a tailed beast. So why you don't show me evidence that Jonin Kabuto would do any better against her summon than he would agaist Gamabuta.




Doton, GG.

Kakashi? Doton, GG.

Let's not also forget that Temari was at an advantage at the range she was already at.



> Are you _kidding_ me? You can't honestly think that. Neji was the only one with 359 degree vision to counter sniping and full body chakra expulsion to counter webs. He was a beautiful, _beautiful_ match up against Kidomaru.
> 
> Kidomaru effectively defeated the entire team if not for Neji. As did Jirobo if not for coordinated teamwork by the team in the prison. Base Sakon easily beat down CE Sasuke. What feats are there for Kabuto doing that?




He fought from outside of Neji's Byakugan range, could pinpoint Neji's blind spot due to his abilities, could attack Neji faster than he could react, and had armor that protected his tenketsu. Close combat was impossible for Kidomaru, but Neji was the one who was royally fucked in that fight because Neji couldn't fight from long range at all.




> You're arguing _solely_ by portrayal, because you have no feats to back up your claim. And frankly, the portrayal argument is weak as well, because the Sound 4 were stated to be able to kill Kakashi with just 1-2 of them.




They were talking about Sasuke.




> Shizune, Tsuande's right hand Jonin, was freaking out and didn't know how they could be defeated. The two ninja they defeated were Tsunade and Minato's royal guards, and the only ones to learn Hiraishin.




You're using so much genjutsu in this paragraph. Bringing up Minato and Tsunade's names alongside Genma and Raido does nothing to bolster their standing. They were bodyguards, not royal guards, and it's not like Minato trained them to fight. Also, don't get it twisted; Genma and Raido did not learn Hiraishin. They learned a bootleg Hiraishin and they need to hold hands with another person and stand in big happy circle in order to use it.



> They said the Sound 4 were beyond the arts of shinobi, and that Shizune, the Jonin apprentice of Tsunade, stood zero chance against them if she went after them, even after the Sound 4 fought them.




Shizune isn't impressive (nor is Iwashi). Of course she would get beaten by the Sound Four alone if Genma and Raido did as a pair.



> So go ahead, man. Show me portrayal equal to that. Show me where Kakashi is portrayed to be able to "trash" a group that Shizune, another Jonin with DB speed equal to Zabuza, stands no chance against. Show me, then I'll concede.




Kakashi's feats were praised by the ninja god. Let's start with that.​


----------



## Sadgoob (Mar 25, 2016)

Saru said:


> See all of Tsunade's speed feats against Madara.



I was comparing BM Choji at the time to Tsunade at the time. If you need to go to part two after Tsunade trained for three years to make a credible argument, then that proves my point. Is there nothing in part one for you?



Saru said:


> If you wish to believe that Jirobo is stronger simply because Tsunade's never lifted something that heavy, you're free to do so. Jirobo's feat doesn't eclipse what Tsunade's done or her portrayal.



You just acknowledged that Jirobo's feat eclipses what Tsunade's done in terms of lifting. What portrayal has her physically stronger than that? She's called the strongest woman in the world, but Jirobo isn't a woman.



Saru said:


> The second is that, from a portrayal standpoint, Tsunade is above the likes Choji or Jirobo in speed or just about any other category.



Based on what. Definitely not feats because you haven't provided any. So where was she portrayed faster that wasn't a baseless interception feat? Or are we counting interception feats, the kind that put her below part one Naruto?



Saru said:


> You can keep saying that stating that until you're blue in the face, but it's not going to change Rock Lee's rank. *Kisihimoto* decided upon Rock Lee's strength by placing him within a ranking system where characters are ranked relative to their peers. Where Lee falls in that ranking system is an indication where Kishimoto believes Rock Lee's strength to lie.



By this logic, Kishimoto believes Itachi was a Chunin level when he beat Orochimaru. He believes Naruto was a Genin level when he beat Pain. He believes Sakura was Chunin level when punching Kaguya. And so on.



Saru said:


> Kabuto? Doton, GG.
> 
> Kakashi? Doton, GG.



So they can hide underground? Oh, so superior. And what about the other Jonin like Kurenai or Zabuza that can't hide underground to save their lives? How do they survive? They're certainly slower by feats.



Saru said:


> He fought from outside of Neji's Byakugan range, could pinpoint Neji's blind spot due to his abilities, could attack Neji faster than he could react, and had armor that protected his tenketsu.



The fact is, any ninja without 359 degree vision or sensing would be dead against Kidomaru's sniping. Similarly, it was shown that only Neji could destroy the chakra web constructs by releasing chakra from all over his body.

How would Shizune dodge those attacks that caught SRA Neji, Saru? She's a Jonin. But she's slower and less skilled in CQC than Neji, doesn't have 359 degree vision or sensing, and can't emit chakra from the body to break webs.



Saru said:


> They were talking about Sasuke.



No, they absolutely were not. Not in that translation. And not in the viz translation. Just no. I'm pretty much done debating you if you're going to willingly forego your reading comprehension abilities to keep your conviction.

Tayuya was responding to Kidomaru saying it'd be easier if they waited for Kakashi to leave. She said she could beat him. Sakon said it would take two to cut his throat to pieces. They didn't want to cut Sasuke's throat to pieces. 

They wanted him to come to the Sound with them. The _entire point_ of it was to show Sasuke their individual power to persuade him to leave. And it worked. Sasuke literally abandoned the village after base Sakon punked him.



Saru said:


> Shizune isn't impressive.



But Saru. She's a Jonin. That's Kishimoto's ranking system, like you were telling me. Six Gate part two Lee with vastly superior stats would get trashed by her, because he's only a Chunin and that's Kishi's ranking system. Same with Itachi.



Saru said:


> Kakashi's feats were praised by the ninja god. Let's start with that.



Is War Kakashi a Jonin level to you? That is his rank. Why would you think I was talking about War Kakashi and not Wave Kakashi in a conversation about Jonin levels? Is there zero evidence in part one to support your view?


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## Saru (Mar 25, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I was comparing BM Choji at the time to Tsunade at the time. If you need to go to part two after Tsunade trained for three years to make a credible argument, then that proves my point. Is there nothing in part one for you?




Once again, Jirobo's feats don't eclipse Tsunade's feats because the limits of Tsunade's strength were never tested in the manga. Period. Jirobo's hype is nonexistent, so he doesn't match up to Tsunade in that regard either. I don't believe in wearing Part I spectacles to analyze feats and statements, so if you're going to take things in that direction, understand that I won't be going there with you.




> You just acknowledged that Jirobo's feat eclipses what Tsunade's done in terms of lifting. What portrayal has her physically stronger than that? She's called the strongest woman in the world, but Jirobo isn't a woman.




See the above. 




> Based on what. Definitely not feats because you haven't provided any. So where was she portrayed faster that wasn't a baseless interception feat? Or are we counting interception feats, the kind that put her below part one Naruto?




I gave you several feats to draw upon in my last post.





> By this logic, Kishimoto believes Itachi was a Chunin level when he beat Orochimaru. He believes Naruto was a Genin level when he beat Pain. He believes Sakura was Chunin level when punching Kaguya. And so on.




Really? 

Itachi is an obvious exception and Sakura didn't become strong enough to punch Kaguya until the end of the series, where there were no promotions to Jounin rank because everyone was trapped in Madara's Mugen Tsukuyomi. Do you see how that's different than Choji still being a Chuunin after three years? Don't bring up BM Choji in Part II either, because he's the same case as Sakura, and I've already explained that his jutsu was on a different scale than it was in Part I.




> So they can hide underground? Oh, so superior. And what about the other Jonin like Kurenai or Zabuza that can't hide underground to save their lives? How do they survive? They're certainly slower by feats.




I've already talked about Zabuza.

Kurenai has genjutsu that was comparable to Itachi's. That's more than Temari can handle.




> The fact is, any ninja without 359 degree vision or sensing would be dead against Kidomaru's sniping. Similarly, it was shown that only Neji could destroy the chakra web constructs by releasing chakra from all over his body.




Any experienced Jounin who has sensory capabilities and is capable enough in combat would be just fine, actually. There's an entire clan of people who fit this description known as the Aburame. The Yamanaka are another such Clan. There are members of the Hyuuga Clan with a greater visual range than Neji are capable of doing this as well. You're probably going to want to rebut with "Neji surpassed the main branch" (since you've said it about ten times now) or "Part II power scale," but that's not a sufficient argument. Part II cannot be ignored when looking at Part I feats, and I don't believe there was a power scale to begin with. _The main cast just got stronger_.




> How would Shizune dodge those attacks that caught SRA Neji, Saru? She's a Jonin. But she's slower and less skilled in CQC than Neji, doesn't have 359 degree vision or sensing, and can't emit chakra from the body to break webs.




Shizune can prevent Kidomaru from slipping out of her sight because she's more experienced than Neji and won't have her attention broken by a simple distraction. She has no counters to sniping, but she can likely defeat Kidomaru before sniping comes into play.




> No, they absolutely were not. Not in that translation. And not in the viz translation. Just no. I'm pretty much done debating you if you're going to willingly forego your reading comprehension abilities to keep your conviction.
> 
> Tayuya was responding to Kidomaru saying it'd be easier if they waited for Kakashi to leave. She said she could beat him. Sakon said it would take two to cut his throat to pieces. They didn't want to cut Sasuke's throat to pieces.
> 
> They wanted him to come to the Sound with them. The _entire point_ of it was to show Sasuke their individual power to persuade him to leave. And it worked. Sasuke literally abandoned the village after base Sakon punked him.




I followed the story of Naruto too. 

I saw the pictures. 

I even read the text bubbles. 

I know the context. 

I'm going to use the same logic that you used in your interpretation of Itachi and Kisame's conversation about Naruto and Jiraiya in Part I to help you understand how that scene took place. Kidomaru says that "it'll be easier [to approach Sasuke] when he's wandering around," which is why they waited until Sasuke was wandering around. In response, Sakon says that "two would probably be enough to cut his throat to pieces." *There was no change in subject.* They were talking about *Sasuke* the entire time. Sakon was using what is called hyperbole. He was not going to actually going to cut Sasuke's throat to pieces.

Moreover, the Sound Four were tired and injured after fighting Genma and Raido *as a unit*. Kakashi is stronger than those two Jounin, so two of the Sound Four taking Kakashi on *doesn't even make sense*. As a final note, characters make statements in reference to their own strength that aren't true all the time. Without the feats to back it up, those statements don't signify much beyond confidence or sometimes--as in Sakon's case assuming he _*was*_ talking about Kakashi--overconfidence.




> But Saru. She's a Jonin. That's Kishimoto's ranking system, like you were telling me. Six Gate part two Lee with vastly superior stats would get trashed by her, because he's only a Chunin and that's Kishi's ranking system. Same with Itachi.




Stop putting words in my mouth. Not a single person in this thread has said that _all_ Jounin are stronger than _all_ Chuunin or that rank was a definitive measure of character's overall strength. What I _did_ say is that Rock Lee's ranking as Chuunin is an indication that Kishimoto intended for Rock Lee to below Shizune's *Jounin rank* in strength. For one, just because Rock Lee is capable of defeating Shizune does not mean that Rock Lee is at the Jounin level himself. Secondly, Shizune has a *much* higher stat total than Rock Lee in the Databook, and she only had one entry, unlike Lee who had an entry in the Second and Third Databooks.  What does that mean? It means that, in Kishimoto's mind, Rock Lee is still below Shizune, one of the weakest named Jounin in the manga. Rank is incredibly relevant excluding a few rare exceptions, believe it or not.




> Is War Kakashi a Jonin level to you? That is his rank. Why would you think I was talking about War Kakashi and not Wave Kakashi in a conversation about Jonin levels? Is there zero evidence in part one to support your view?




Kakashi was legendary before series start. GG. He had a moniker and everything.

I'm done debating if you're going to keep reducing my argument to rank when it's more complex than that, and I don't have time to spit out the words you're trying to put in my mouth either.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 26, 2016)

Gotta say I agree with Saru 100%

A chunin being able to beat 1 jounin doesn't suddenly put that chunin level on the jounin caliber

Especially when that chunin has to use life risking techniques just to pull that off 

Rock lee in gates beating any jounin is hardly impressive considering he is going to be on the ground half dead after it 

While many many more jounin can Mop the floor with him without risking their lives 

Again even mentioning rock lee he is entirely featless and nothing even implies he is above V1 A in speed which most jounin can react to


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Especially when that chunin has to use life risking techniques just to pull that off



That doesn't change that, _in that instance_, he was far above Chunin level. Just like 8 Gates Gai was above Kage Level when fighting Judara.

It's disingenuous to say Jubi Madara was struggling with a Kage level when Gai far surpassed that level in the instance in which he fought Madara.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

Saru said:


> Once again, Jirobo's feats don't eclipse Tsunade's feats because the limits of Tsunade's strength were never tested in the manga. Period.





Saru said:


> See the above.



So in other words, you don't have anything _concrete_ to show me as support from part one for me. So I take it you accept that BM Choji was _shown_ to be stronger and faster than Tsunade in part one, indicating that his combat level in the instance where he defeated CS2 Jirobo was far above Chunin. 



Saru said:


> Itachi is an obvious exception



So there _are_ exceptions. Thanks. And I think it's obvious that there are many more exceptions when comparing known characters to the lesser Jonin we've seen in the manga. The main cast is full of geniuses and heirs.

The bar for Jonin level shouldn't be set at peak Jonin like part one Kakashi or Asuma. That's like setting the bar for Kage level at Minato or Tobirama. It should be set at the weakest Jonin, like Kid Kakashi or Taiseki, or Mei for Kages.

Additionally, just like with Chunin, ninja can be at a Chunin combat level, but not be promoted for other reasons. Neji, Lee, Naruto, Gaara, and Sasuke all would've _de-stroyed_ CE Shikamaru in combat, but weren't promoted.

As such, it would be wise to consider that many Chunin could be at a Jonin combat level, but fail to meet other categories of being a Jonin such as knowledge, leadership, diversity, etc. not strictly combat oriented.



Saru said:


> Kurenai has genjutsu that was comparable to Itachi's. That's more than Temari can handle.



Tayuya has an equal genjutsu stat to Kurenai and CS2 empowering her chakra more. So why would Kurenai's genjutsu be more effective? Not in feats, not in the databook. So why? She can't survive the Weasel unless she strikes first. 



Saru said:


> She has no counters to sniping



Or webs. Sniping and webs together is something surprisingly few Jonin have counter for. Kidomaru also has chakra vision, summons, armor, and faux Sage Mode with the CS. He's an extremely well rounded ninja.



Saru said:


> I'm going to use the same logic that you used in your interpretation of Itachi and Kisame's conversation about Naruto and Jiraiya in Part I



My logic was that the official viz translation in the printed manga and context of the scene is more appropriate to use than one fan translated statement on its own. So here is the official viz of that scene:



> *"It'll be hard with a shinobi of that caliber hanging around.// Let's wait a bit."
> 
> "Maybe for weaklings like you! // But not me!"
> 
> "Mph. I wouldn't be so sure...// If there's two of us, one slash and we'd have his neck, but..."*



And the other factors are that the Sound Four were sent their to show Sasuke their individual power to convince him to leave the village. They expected to be individually superior by a vast amount to Sasuke, and were..



Saru said:


> Moreover, the Sound Four were tired and injured after fighting Genma and Raido *as a unit*. Kakashi is stronger than those two Jounin



Based on what? Certainly not the Sound 4's opinion of Kakashi. And I'd argue that as Kage guards and learners of Hiraishin, their portrayal is comparable to part 1 Kakashi's, considering Kakashi was Minato's student and didn't learn it.

Kakashi has better feats, but that's because they have literally zero feats to draw upon. It's not like part one Tsunade versus BM Choji, because Tsunade has feats to pick from. They're just inferior feats, not zero feats.



Saru said:


> It means that, in Kishimoto's mind, Rock Lee is still below Shizune, one of the weakest named Jounin in the manga. Shizune has a much higher stat total than Rock Lee in the Databook.



No, that'd be Kid Kakashi, who 2-tomoe Obito saved twice. Look up Obito's stat total (Spoilers: It's 18.) Or Taiseki, who 2-tomoe Obito _paneled_. Shizune is _far_ from the bottom of the barrel of Jonin combat level in feats.

And since I know you're not a big feat guy, she's also near the top of the barrel in portrayal as well. She's a companion of a Sannin, and essentially her apprentice. There's a lot prestige there relative to other Jonin.


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## Saru (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> So in other words, you don't have anything _concrete_ to show me as support from part one for me. So I take it you accept that BM Choji was _shown_ to be stronger and faster than Tsunade in part one, indicating that his combat level in the instance where he defeated CS2 Jirobo was far above Chunin.







No. I've already explained to you that I don't look at Part I in isolation of Part II, and again, Tsunade's limits were never shown. Additionally, Choji had to pop pills in the midst of battle in order to achieve his _momentary_ boost in power. Then he almost died afterwards. That's the price that's paid for trying to access a level of power you have not truly achieved. 





> So there _are_ exceptions. Thanks. And I think it's obvious that there are many more exceptions when comparing known characters to the lesser Jonin we've seen in the manga. The main cast is full of geniuses and heirs.
> 
> The bar for Jonin level shouldn't be set at peak Jonin like part one Kakashi or Asuma. That's like setting the bar for Kage level at Minato or Tobirama. It should be set at the weakest Jonin, like Kid Kakashi or Taiseki, or Mei for Kages.
> 
> ...




I'm well aware that there are exceptions. The Jounin level ranges from ninja like Shizune to ninja like Yugito Nii. Part I Kakashi is not peak Jounin level. 




> Tayuya has an equal genjutsu stat to Kurenai and CS2 empowering her chakra more. So why would Kurenai's genjutsu be more effective? Not in feats, not in the databook. So why? She can't survive the Weasel unless she strikes first.




Temari was able to counter Tayuya's genjutsu because it was based on sound. Kurenai's genjutsu is not based on sound. Kurenai's genjutsu was also compared to Itachi's (a fact which you seemed to ignore), so I'm sure that she would be able to get her genjutsu off just fine. Temari has a lower Databook stat total than Kurenai as well BTW, even after becoming a Jounin.




> Or webs. Sniping and webs together is something surprisingly few Jonin have counter for Kidomaru also has chakra vision, summons, armor, and faux Sage Mode with the CS. He's an extremely well rounded ninja.




Webs can be blasted back with long-range ninjutsu, sliced through with elemental flow, or simply dodged.




> My logic was that the official viz translation in the printed manga and context of the scene is more appropriate to use than one fan translated statement on its own.




Like I said, in the event that Sakon was referring to Kakashi, his statement signifies nothing more than overconfidence.




> Based on what? Certainly not the Sound 4's opinion of Kakashi. And I'd argue that as Kage guards and learners of Hiraishin, their portrayal is comparable to part 1 Kakashi's, considering Kakashi was Minato's student and didn't learn it.
> 
> Kakashi has better feats, but that's because they have literally zero feats to draw upon. It's not like part one Tsunade versus BM Choji, because Tsunade has feats to pick from. They're just inferior feats, not zero feats.




Can you stop tossing the word Hiriashin around to make it sound more impressive than it is? They did not learn Hiraishin. They learned a bootleg version that they have to hold hands in a circle to use, and they learned that for the express purpose of being able to reach the Hokage at any given time. I don't care about the Sound Four's opinion of Kakashi because they're a bunch of arrogant children who don't know Kakashi's strength. Genma and Raido's lack of feats and infamy is indicative of their inferiority to Kakashi.




> No, that'd be Kid Kakashi, who 2-tomoe Obito saved twice. Look up Obito's stat total (Spoilers: It's 18.) Or Taiseki, who 2-tomoe Obito _paneled_. Shizune is _far_ from the bottom of the barrel of Jonin combat level in feats.
> 
> And since I know you're not a big feat guy, she's also near the top of the barrel in portrayal as well. She's a companion of a Sannin, and essentially her apprentice. There's a lot prestige there relative to other Jonin.




Jounin promotion due to war times doesn't count.

Her Databook score being equal to Kurenai's suggests otherwise. If Shizune is superior, she is likely marginally so.​


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## Baroxio (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't know where all this obsession with rank comes from when rank subversion has been a trope in this manga from the start. 

Chapter 1 Naruto uses Taju Kage Bunshin, beats up a chunin.
Chapter 3 Sasuke completely clowns 2 Chunin, the Demon Bros

Later on Haku gets hyped to be stronger than Zabuza, a Jonin, only for Sasuke to match him with Sharingan and Naruto to beat him with KN0.

Then there's Gaara, immediately hyped up to be beyond any current Chunin (i.e. Jonin level), yet again matched by Sasuke with Sharingan and beaten by Naruto with KN0.

It's like people think the cutoff for Jonin level is Wave Arc Kakashi, rather than noname fodder that Chunin Kid Obito with Sharingan beat. 

Rank is just a literary tool to induce drama and hype, nothing more. It has been subverted countless times. Current Godmode Naruto and Sasuke are still Genin for crying out loud!

The only worthwhile things we have to rely upon in these discussions, are feats.


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## Saru (Mar 26, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> *Rank is just a literary tool to induce drama and hype, nothing more*. It has been subverted countless times. *Current Godmode Naruto and Sasuke are still Genin for crying out loud*!
> 
> *The only worthwhile things we have to rely upon in these discussions, are feats*.




This is yet another example of pointing out obvious exceptions to the ranking system and the dismissal of hype and portrayal in order to hold feats in higher esteem. I know the NBD loves its feats, but feats aren't the be-all-end-all of discussion with regards to the manga.​


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

Baroxio said:


> Chapter 1 Naruto uses Taju Kage Bunshin, beats up a chunin.
> Chapter 3 Sasuke completely clowns 2 Chunin, the Demon Bros


 Sasuke got a drop on Demon Bros who were focused on other target. And he would likely be dead without Kakashi around and them jumping out of their jutsu on him. 



Baroxio said:


> Later on Haku gets hyped to be stronger than Zabuza, a Jonin, only for Sasuke to match him with Sharingan and Naruto to beat him with KN0.


 I hope you don't honestly believe that Haku is stronger than Zabuza.



Baroxio said:


> Then there's Gaara, immediately hyped up to be beyond any current Chunin (i.e. Jonin level), yet again matched by Sasuke with Sharingan and beaten by Naruto with KN0.


 It was a foreshadowing of Gaara's special defenses. Not his overall level. And Sasuke who matched Gaara was called chunin-lvl.

Rank matters to a certain extent. That's why majority of Rookies only got to chunin after timeskip. There are obviously weaker and stronger people in each rank. And no-name/zero-relevance people who would perform worse than proper character of the same rank. But it still gives a fair amount of info for scaling or when we don't have enough feats.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I don't remember this, but I believe you. However, as I have been arguing _ad nauseum_, a ninja's worth is not determined by their rank. Orochimaru may have known that her value was closer to Elite Jonin, and with her Curse Seal, that may well have been true. CS1 Anko probably isn't a joke.



That wasn't something I was arguing against.

The Third Hokage had suppressed the Curse Mark by the way, so Anko couldn't even use it. Orochimaru reactivated it _after that sentence_, but then the Hokage suppressed it again iirc.



> 10,000 was a much larger number than I expected from reading part one, but that's what it is apparently. I could see there only being 200 Jonin total, but we both agree that there are only 30-ish Elite Jonin.



Half of whom were without a name- i.e. were fodder, _not_ highlighted- so like I'd said:


> Btw: If there are 30ish elite Jōnin then you have to admit what I said a while ago (like a different thread) about how a character being fodder doesn't have anything to do with their capability, because Kishi didn't even introduce 30 relevant Jōnin to begin with.



That's what I'm getting at. If one were to admit that much, there's really not much of a reason to isolate the Jōnin with names as superlative in comparison to those other Jōnin without, at least from the outset.

It's really a question of how prestigious you think the title of Jōnin is supposed to be in and of itself.

Kishi has referenced their Jōnin ranks numerous times and when he did it would have required no effort of him whatsoever to suggest that they were something _even for_ Jōnin. _"Since, for the time being, it appears you have become one of this village's Jōnin ninja elite..."_, _"Fighting two Jōnin is a bit rough"_, and _"Well, they were Jōnin, and two of them to boot"_ are statements Kishi could have just as easily added something along the lines of _"more formidable"_ or _"of this caliber"_ or _"of that class"_ to before or after the word Jōnin (or simply used their names) if it was supposed to be understood that those specific ninja were especially powerful in comparison to most other Jōnin; what he actually put on the pages hypes _the Jōnin position itself_ more than anything. There's a difference when Kakashi shows up- then suddenly instead of simply saying _"Jōnin"_ they say _"the Mirror Ninja"_ and _"of that caliber"_.

I wouldn't consider most introduced Jōnin to be elites even among the Jōnin simply because I think that rank is supposed to already be _that_ exclusive. _"The 1%"_ is pretty much made up _by_ the amount of Jōnin in the village the way I see it, so being a prodigy or part of a prestigious family doesn't mean as much once a ninja reaches that spot.

That's why I asked about how many you thought there actually were, because it doesn't seem like our impressions of how capable a normal Jōnin would be are actually similar.



> The lesser Jonin are more like CE Lee.



That's not what's implied by Shikamaru and Genma requesting other Chūnin and Jōnin of Tsunade over the SRA rookies. Both Shikamaru and Genma were there to observe the Chūnin Exams from Naruto vs Neji (Neji who by Lee's own admission would have required Lee to use the second lotus to beat as of the preliminaries) match on up, with Sasuke being specifically stated to be at the Chūnin-level during the exams even though Sasuke'd showcased weightless Lee speed, the two-tomoe Sharingan, _and_ Chidori.



> They're the Sound Village elite, no way around it. Could they individually beat the Konoha elite? Tayuya thought so. Sakon thought it would take two of them to take down Kakashi. It's still elite though.



Statistically Kidōmaru was rated the most knowledgeable of that bunch, and _once Kakashi left Sasuke_ said that it would be hard with a ninja of that caliber around before saying the Sound 4 should _wait_. They did not move until it was _nighttime_, the point at which the panels swapped to Kabuto telling Orochimaru he probably didn't need to send all four of them and Orochimaru talked about how each of the Sound 4 were interested with Sasuke before wondering how strong _Sasuke_ was. 

They were most likely referring to a sneaky ambush similar to what they pulled against Raidō during the Chūnin Exams, assuming that Sakon and Tayuya weren't simply boasting about their ability in the comfort of knowing they wouldn't have to actually face Kakashi (they _were_ stated to be the most arrogant of the Sound 4) or they simply weren't as informed about Kakashi as Kidōmaru was.



> Shizune, an elite, was told that she stood zero chance against the Four, even after they swiftly defeated two other guards of the Kage, something that Shizune asked "_How?!_" could happen.



No she wasn't, _Iwashi_ was told not to when, _while Shizune was stabilizing Raidō_, he said he'd pursue them- meaning alone. Genma said Iwashi would be dead if he went after them _alone_. However, Genma and Raidō's defeat (to the Sound 4 _collectively_) was attributed to the fact that they were coming off of a mission and resultantly out of Chakra, and that factor is one that would have applied to both Shizune and Iwashi as well.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Sasuke got a drop on Demon Bros who were focused on other target.



Even if that is the case, that was Sasuke before Wave Arc speed training, and before CE Arc speed training, and without a Sharingan. Weighted Rock Lee would have done the same thing Kakashi did to those 2 Chunin.



Saru said:


> Like I said, in the event that Sakon was referring to Kakashi, his statement signifies nothing more than overconfidence.



Point being, none of the Sound 4 respected Kakashi like you think they ought to. Kakashi failed to sense them, as did the entire Leaf Village chalk full of Jonin. So give me an example of where this supposed gap is portrayed.



Saru said:


> They did not learn Hiraishin. They learned a bootleg version that they have to hold hands in a circle to use



They learned a bootleg version of what? Did Kakashi or anybody else learn this bootleg version (of what, again?) Why wasn't Kakashi a Kage body guard? Is Wave Kakashi hugely superior to Kage guards shown in part 2?



Saru said:


> Jounin promotion due to war times doesn't count.



It was never stated that the standards dropped during the War. Additionally, Taiseki was from another village, and was in that same lower level of Jonin. Did the standard drop for all villages? Where was this stated?


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Even if that is the case, that was Sasuke before Wave Arc speed training, and before CE Arc speed training, and without a Sharingan.


 So? I don't get your obsession with this instance. We saw but a glimpse of Demon Bros arsenal. If for example they are heavy ninjutsu/stealth users with sub-par physical stats them losing to Sasuke in that exchange doesn't really prove that rank means shit. Look at another Bros - Oboros. Without their genjutsu/bunshin game Chapter 1 Naruto is likely to smoke the whole team with TKB. But with their best stuff they are likely to kill early Wave Arc Sasuke+Naruto. It is the beginning of Naruto where stealth, traps, tricks and intelligence were focused more than pure power. I don't think that Sasuke would have been able to hide as well as Demon Bros. Nor does he have semi-advanced equipment like poison. Match ups and fighting styles matter. Weaker chunins who aren't good in face-to-face combat can lose to exceptional genins like early Naruto and Sasuke. But if Sauce after chakra-training, two Sharingan upgrades, Lee's speed training and Chidori is still chunin-lvl... Kinda makes you think. 




Sadgoob said:


> Weighted Rock Lee would have done the same thing Kakashi did to those Chunin.


 Or he would get hit by a surprise attack and maimed.


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## Santoryu (Mar 26, 2016)

It's noted that Kakashi was "Konoha's greatest technician"in part 1.

Charter 35: Kakashi noted that he became a chunnin 6 years younger than Naruto.

He's in the bingo book and known throughout the 5 nations. Has a Sharingan and has copied over 100 jutsu. Kakashi is an anomaly compared to the standard Jonin.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That's what I'm getting at. If one were to admit that much, there's really not much of a reason to isolate the Jōnin with names as superlative in comparison to those other Jōnin without, at least from the outset.



That's just more of a rule of thumb in manga, as far as I'm concerned. The reason everybody's a genius in part one in some way is because the manga is only focused on the exceptional. There are 9000 less exceptional out there.



FlamingRain said:


> It's really a question of how prestigious you think the title of Jōnin is supposed to be in and of itself.



We can look at Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, Mahiru, etc. and their relative performance against 2-tomoe Obito whose stats are in the databook. It's not that high compared to the group the manga focuses, but is relative to 9,000 lesser fodder.

Basically, all the ninja that made it to the finals of CE are at least Chunin in combat level. They'd beat the Demon Brothers, Mizuki, etc. by feats. The elite in those CE finals (Neji, Gaara, KN0, Sasuke, Lee) are low Jonin level.

This view is the most in line with what has been shown by other low-end Jonin and Chunin in the manga, the ones that should be the baseline for that level, not the high-end elites that are famous throughout the world.



FlamingRain said:


> That's not what's implied by Shikamaru and Genma requesting other Chūnin and Jōnin of Tsunade over the SRA rookies.



Choji, Shikamaru, and Kiba are by all accounts weak from what we saw in the Chunin Exam. Butterfly Choji and Wolf Kiba were in different leagues. Neji had spent a month training with Hiashi and improved his stats to 4.5 tai. 

So their estimation based on the CE would be outdated. And besides that, for the most part, the team relied on outside forces like Temari's overpowered kuchiyose, Kankuro's puppet ambush, etc. to prevail.



FlamingRain said:


> with Sasuke being specifically stated to be at the Chūnin-level during the exams



Genma said Sasuke was _already_ at the Chunin level. And we know it's not the low-end like the Demon Brothers, but the high end. He may have seen too little to for-certain ascertain if Sasuke was at Jonin level.

In any case, Base Sakon _easily_ defeated that version Sasuke, without CS. So if base Sakon easily defeated an upper end Chunin or low end Jonin, then CS Saskon (senjutsu enhanced everything) could be said to be solidly Jonin.

What's more, if you put CS Sakon up against Kid Kakashi or 2-tomoe Obito, it becomes very clear that he's in the Jonin range, as is CE Sasuke, who is largely superior to 2-tomoe Obito in the databook and by feats.

Honestly, just pause for a second, and think about how Wave Arc Sasuke, before Wave speed training, before CE speed training, before the 2-tomoe, was doing well against two Mist Chunin. Just reflect on that.

CE Sasuke, Kid Kakashi, 2-tomoe Obito, Rock Lee, SRA Neji, KN0, would be able to devastate literally _dozens_ of that level of Chunin based on their speed feats and progression. Which is why they're Low Jonin level.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Genma said Sasuke was already at the Chunin level. And we know it's not the low-end like the Demon Brothers, but the high end. And Base Sakon _easily_ defeated that version Sasuke, without CS.


We don't know at what end Sasuke was, come on. Early Part 2 Shino and Lee are more likely to be on high-end chunin level than that Sasuke.

And Sakon didn't defeat Sasuke. He won a single taijutsu/CQC clash and then S4 ganged up on Sasuke. Sasuke wasn't even using Sharingan. Base Sakon would get owned by Chidori. This S4 agenda of yours is unhealthy.


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## Itachі (Mar 26, 2016)

These quote wars are unsightly.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

Sound 5 Wars are almost like olde Itachi vs Jiraiya level. I am not sure if that's good or bad.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> We don't know at what end Sasuke was, come on. Early Part 2 Shino and Lee are more likely to be on high-end chunin level than that Sasuke.



You could say kid Itachi was a high-end Chunin level just like Lee. I don't consider either Chunin level, only Chunin in rank. I have a fundamentally different interpretation of Shino than a lot of people, so I won't touch that here.



Alex Payne said:


> Base Sakon would get owned by Chidori. This S4 agenda of yours is unhealthy.



Nah, I don't think Chidori would land well on Sakon given this attempt, and he has a healing factor as well as general CS2 resilience. The S4 agenda is fun, not unhealthy. If you're not having fun, you don't have to participate..

In any case, Sakon and the S4 very adamantly considered Sasuke weak. And Sasuke considered them strong, which is why he left the village to attain a similar power. There's really no room to debate there.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

You claim that CE Sasuke was high-end chunin as a fact. How about some proof?

And do you admit that "Base Sakon beat Sasuke" was wrong?

I say "Base Sakon would get owned Chidori". You show me CS1 Sasuke trying to bumrush CS1 Sakon with taijutsu and failing. What is the point?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 26, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> You claim that CE Sasuke was high-end chunin as a fact. How about some proof?



Sure, no problem.

*Low End Chunin*

Demon Brothers, Mizuki, etc. Their movement speed and reflexes are tiers lower than CE Sasuke. Sasuke would essentially do to them what weighted Rock Lee first did to him, but worse. I appreciate your arguments about them being more stealth oriented, but there's a tremendous reflex gap there that just can't be ignored. They'd be slaughtered in any head to head scenario.

*Low End Jonin*

Kid Kakashi. We saw 2-tomoe Obito save Kid Kakashi against Taiseki, another Jonin, as well as against Kakko's jutsu. We can see in the databook that 2-tomoe Obito's stats are inferior to CE Sasuke's stats. Especially when accounting for CS1, then CE Sasuke's level was likely superior to both. So at his absolute worse, I would only consider CE Sasuke a high end Chunin. 



Alex Payne said:


> And do you admit that "Base Sakon beat Sasuke" was wrong?



Base Sakon did beat Sasuke. He was dangling him in the air like a ragdoll, and Sasuke was confused as to why Sakon easily tanked all of his blows. When Sasuke began relying the CS1, Sakon did as well.



Alex Payne said:


> I say "Base Sakon would get owned Chidori". You show me CS1 Sasuke trying to bumrush CS1 Sakon with taijutsu and failing. What is the point?



Because Chidori requires a hit. We just saw Sakon knock CS1 Sasuke's charge backwards, and we know that Ukon makes things trickier still. It don't think Chidori would land Sakon any better than it would on Itachi.


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## Veracity (Mar 26, 2016)

I don't see why Sasuke wouldn't be able to chidori on Sakon given these feats:
this attempt
this attempt
this attempt


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## Alex Payne (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Sure, no problem.
> 
> *Low End Chunin*
> 
> ...


 That doesn't really prove much. Your own personal reasoning of how to rank each character is cool. But you don't have anything solid in terms of in-manga statements/something that points as towards CE Sasuke being exceptional chunin. Chunin-class is broad. And as long as we have early part 2 Rookies as chunins I will not agree with you. 




Sadgoob said:


> Base Sakon did beat Sasuke. He was dangling him in the air like a ragdoll, and Sasuke was confused as to why Sakon easily tanked all of his blows. When Sasuke began relying the CS1, Sakon did as well.


 Quick to change your mind, eh. Base Sakon didn't beat Sasuke. He won a single clash. Sasuke didn't use Katons, Sharingan, shuriken-jutsu and such. Sakon was stated to be on the stronger side of S4 by Oro. You pit CE Sasuke vs every single S4 member and he is likely to beat Jirobo, potentially Tayuya and force Sakon/Ukon and Kido to use CS1/2+exert themselves. Sasuke was indeed on S4 general tier. Considering they accepted him as their leader(you used S4 dissing Sasuke as an argument so here is your counter-argument). And how quickly he surpassed them at the end of the arc. 



Sadgoob said:


> Because Chidori requires a hit. We just saw Sakon knock CS1 Sasuke's charge backwards, and we know that Ukon makes things trickier still. It don't think Chidori would land Sakon any better than it would on Itachi.


 You don't seem to get it. You claimed that *Base* Sakon beat Sasuke. I said that it didn't happen and that Chidori-using Sasuke would beat *Base* Sakon. You showed me *CS1* Sakon countering wild CS1 Sasuke charge. Which is completely irrelevant. Like, at all.




Let me summarize it. _CE Sasuke is a high-end chunin._ Maybe. Maybe not. _He lost to Base Sakon._ Never happened. _Thus it makes Sakon Jonin._ Genin beating another genin doesn't make winner a chunin. Same with two chunins. I guess Wave Arc Kakashi is Kage-lvl because he beat high-end Jonin Zabuza...

Your whole reasoning is weak. Just like Sound 4.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> They learned a bootleg version of what? Did Kakashi or anybody else learn this bootleg version (of what, again?) Why wasn't Kakashi a Kage body guard? Is Wave Kakashi hugely superior to Kage guards shown in part 2?



That's a specialized Jutsu. Genma, Raidō, and Iwashi being better at that Hiraishin-variant than Kakashi doesn't necessarily mean they're better than Kakashi overall.



> It was never stated that the standards dropped during the War. Additionally, Taiseki was from another village, and was in that same lower level of Jonin. Did the standard drop for all villages? Where was this stated?



The fourth databook said that with the Chūnin Exams traits besides battle ability started being considered more important in recent years than they were when the wars were going on. Similar may have applied to Jōnin selection/appointment as well.



> That's just more of a rule of thumb in manga, as far as I'm concerned. The reason everybody's a genius in part one in some way is because the manga is only focused on the exceptional. There are 9000 less exceptional out there.



That notion would be inconsequential so long as one admits there are other exceptional ninja besides the ones that were focused on.



> We can look at Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, Mahiru, etc. and their relative performance against 2-tomoe Obito whose stats are in the databook. It's not that high compared to the group the manga focuses, but is relative to 9,000 lesser fodder.



Databook stats are merely base values, but the best Obito did against those Jōnin was luck out when his Sharingan suddenly activated before Taiseki noticed and block Kakkō's arms when Kakkō was looking at Kakashi. Obito was a liability until he suddenly awakened those Sharingan (he cried when one of Mahiru's 19 clones approached and was the reason Kakashi's eye got slashed), so you could at least approximate pre-Sharingan kid Kakashi by considering Obito and then adding a bit to it, in which case Kakashi's guidebook parameters wouldn't have looked too different than those of the special Jōnin who played Chūnin Exam proctors. Since Kakashi did not seem to be at an advantage against any of Mahiru, Taiseki, and Kakkō's team either (until Rin transferred Obito's Sharingan to Kakashi), similar would likely apply to them.



> Basically, all the ninja that made it to the finals of CE are at least Chunin in combat level. They'd beat the Demon Brothers, Mizuki, etc. by feats. The elite in those CE finals (Neji, Gaara, KN0, Sasuke, Lee) are low Jonin level.



Sasuke had Lee's weightless speed in addition to a two-tomoe Sharingan and Chidori yet was stated to be Chūnin-level even after removing Gaara from the fight. Lee lost to Gaara, and by Lee's own admission also couldn't have beaten Neji without the second lotus. Naruto beat Neji and yet Shikamaru stated that if the group of 9 pursuing a team of Naruto, Sakura, _and_ Shikamaru was at least Chūnin-level their squad would have been dead.

They weren't low Jōnin-level. They would have been more like mid-Chūnin compared to low-Chūnin.



> Genma said Sasuke was already at the Chunin level. And we know it's not the low-end like the Demon Brothers, but the high end. And Base Sakon easily defeated that version Sasuke, without CS.



It doesn't follow from them being better than the "Demon Bros" that they were on the _high_-end of Chūnin-level, though, simply that they weren't barely within that range.

Sakon beat a Sasuke who didn't use either the Sharingan or Chidori- Sakon was winning because he was a tank, as Sasuke stated that he landed all of his combos on Sakon and they simply didn't hurt him.


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## Saru (Mar 26, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Point being, none of the Sound 4 respected Kakashi like you think they ought to. Kakashi failed to sense them, as did the entire Leaf Village chalk full of Jonin. So give me an example of where this supposed gap is portrayed.




I acknowledge your point, but Sakon's statement is not credible because it was made in regards to his own strength in a hypothetical battle scenario. I've already provided an example in Kakashi's moniker: Kakashi, the Copy Ninja, which was given to Kakashi before series start. In addition to this, Kakashi rose above the ranks of his peers at a young age, showing he was a prodigy *before series start*. Was Sakon ever portrayed as prodigious? Did Sakon gain notoriety throughout the shinobi world for his combat abilities? The answer to both of those questions is no.

Infiltrating the village isn't particularly relevant to the discussion of portrayal or strength, and in fact, Konoha was in a weakened state due to Orochimaru's attack, so that should be taken into consideration.



> They learned a bootleg version of what? Did Kakashi or anybody else learn this bootleg version (of what, again?) Why wasn't Kakashi a Kage body guard? Is Wave Kakashi hugely superior to Kage guards shown in part 2?




Genma and Raido were chosen to be bodyguards for the Hokage because they were more experienced (and quite possibly stronger) than 13-year-old Kakashi. Then Minato died and they resumed their position as Hokage bodyguards not solely because of their combat ability, but also due to the utility of their Hirai*jin* no Jutsu (it doesn't even share the same name as Hiraishin, so don't get it twisted). This sort of thing is not uncommon. Mabui is the Yondaime Raikage's assistant not due to her combat ability, but because her Heavenly Transfer Technique is incredibly useful.





> It was never stated that the standards dropped during the War. Additionally, Taiseki was from another village, and was in that same lower level of Jonin. Did the standard drop for all villages? Where was this stated?




What I mean is that Kakashi is a prodigy, so he's a bit of an exception to the rule, although you bring up another good point: there is a greater need for capable leaders during a war, so that could lead to premature promotions for ninja like Kakashi. We saw something like this happen when Tobirama promoted Hiruzen to *Hokage* when the former was forced to sacrifice his life and needed a swift yet reasonable replacement.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> Was Sakon ever been portrayed as prodigious?



I'd say yes, as he was selected by Orochimaru to receive the Curse Seal. That's something only special potentials that Orochimaru is interested in receive, particularly those he considers viable and worthy hosts.

Moreover, from their databook stats, we can see that they're Tokubetsu Jonin in base, as they have "5" in scores un-aided by CS senjutsu. Sakon has a 5 in ninjutsu, Tayuya a 5 in genjutsu, Jirobo a 5 in strength, etc. 

To put this in context, Sakon was an _entire tier_ more skilled in ninjutsu than _Wind Arc Naruto_. If that doesn't make him a prodigy, then I don't know what does. CS senjutsu gives him prodigious physical stats too.



Saru said:


> Infiltrating the village isn't particularly relevant to the discussion of portrayal or strength



Ninja's stealth is a sign of level. We saw that it was impossible for some to avoid Jonin detection, but the Sound 4 did that and more. Sasuke mentions when first meeting Gaara that Gaara has Jonin level stealth.

Totally off topic though, this is what I was talking about in the Itachi being worried about Naruto, not Jiraiya, thing. You can see Orochimaru is more worried about Naruto than Jiraiya too. A loose seal would be a big problem.



			
				Flamingrain said:
			
		

> The fourth databook said that with the Chūnin Exams traits besides battle ability started being considered more important in recent years than they were when the wars were going on. Similar may have applied to Jōnin selection/appointment as well



This is part of my argument. Even without the databook, Shikamaru's promotion and Neji, Naruto, Sasuke, Gaara, Lee, and Temari's lack of promotion shows that much anyway. Shikamaru was one of the weaker contestants.

It is probable that the Jonin Examination had similar requirements stretching beyond pure combat ability, and that ninja with adequate combat ability were passed up for promotion based on other reasons.



			
				Flamingrain said:
			
		

> Sasuke had Lee's weightless speed in addition to a two-tomoe Sharingan and Chidori yet was stated to be Chūnin-level even after removing Gaara from the fight.



He was stated to be already Chunin level in the context of a Chunin Examination. He may well have been Jonin level in combat ability, as his feats surpass those of Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, Mahiru, Shizune, etc. Especially with the CS.  

Jonin level likely requires further testing and isn't immediately apparent. But I think an Elite Jonin sweating, wide-eyed, and saying "Impossible..." warrants Sasuke being low Jonin level. And he wasn't even using CS.



			
				Flamingrain said:
			
		

> Shikamaru stated that if the group of 9 pursuing a team of Naruto, Sakura, and Shikamaru was at least Chūnin-level their squad would have been dead.



I'm pretty sure Shikamaru stated they were likely _above_ Chunin level. Besides, Sakura is Genin level, Shikamaru is Chunin level, and base Naruto prior to Rasengan training is high Chunin. 9 vs 3 is a huge numbers gap.



			
				Alex said:
			
		

> That doesn't really prove much. Your own personal reasoning of how to rank each character is cool. But you don't have anything solid in terms of in-manga statements/something that points as towards CE Sasuke being exceptional chunin. Chunin-class is broad. And as long as we have early part 2 Rookies as chunins I will not agree with you.



Could the wide-eyed Elite Jonin sweating and saying "Impossible..." thing be sufficient evidence for CE Sasuke being above Chunin level? You even have the "Kazekage" (Orochimaru) going _*Impressive!*_ with wide eyes. Gai sweating too.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Besides, Base SRA Naruto with a broken leg defeated Kabuto, an Elite Jonin that was said to be on Kakashi's level several times throughout part one _*directly after*_ Kabuto easily destroyed Shizune. 

The level gap for the elite Rookies was gone by SRA, and Naruto/Shizune proved it. CS Sasuke, SRA Neji, Butterfly Choji, Temari's Kuchiyose, Wolf Kiba, the Sound Five in CS2, etc. are all at _least_ comparable to base SRA Naruto, and _could_ therefore plausibly outperform Shizune in battle just like Naruto did.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 27, 2016)

Stop pushing clashes as battles and wins as loses. SRA Naruto _temporarily disabled_ Kabuto. And received a fatal injury in process. Naruto was dying. Kabuto needed a bit of time to regenerate. It was Kabuto's win. It's impressive for Naruto to do that but there was some heavy plot in work. Considering Kabuto laughed off _Post Time Skip_ Naruto's attack. 



All SRA Rookies would have been made Jonins in Part 2 if they were on Shizune's level or above in Part 1. It's that simple.


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## Veracity (Mar 27, 2016)

Yeah what? Kabuto was cocky against Naruto because he was a genin - a failry goofy one at that. That was clearly pivotal to the plot. There was a massive gap between Naruto and Kabuto. He was casually beating Naruto's candy ass with one arm: using his own body as a medium

Naruto is also the main character, and that entire scene had plot written all over it given the array of flashback.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

For me it's as simple as the standards were raised since better ninja appeared . During kid Kakashi time they were less competent ninja than during Genin Naruto time . That simple 

Also sadgoob what level is Hinata in war arc am curious . She sure as hell ain't jounin level or close to it but she laughing off the sound 4 badly . If you disagree feel free to respond and I could explain why

9 vs 1 somehow wasn't a gap when a jounin showed up . That was the gap between jounin and chunin there. Asuma did so with no effort at all so can't even go off oh he was elite 

The guy simply went at them and murdered them . Something you just said was too much for this high chunin Naruto with backup to even put up a fight at all


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Stop pushing clashes as battles and wins as loses. SRA Naruto _temporarily disabled_ Kabuto.



Naruto _undeniably_ outperformed Shizune against Kabuto. Shizune was just, destroyed. Then Naruto picked up where she left off, and took Kabuto down with a Rasengan. He outperformed a Jonin against an Elite Jonin.



Alex Payne said:


> Considering Kabuto laughed off _Post Time Skip_ Naruto's attack.



Why are multiple people linking ninja easily popping a few Naruto clones to me as if it matters? Do you think I didn't read the first 500 chapters of the manga where basically every ninja he ever fights does that much?

Additionally, since when is it appropriate to link post skip feats as if they have a bearing in part one matches? If I point out Naruto beating Gaara in part one, are you going to link post skip Kazekage Gaara feats to me?



			
				Alex said:
			
		

> All SRA Rookies would have been made Jonins in Part 2 if they were on Shizune's level or above in Part 1. It's that simple.



"*All SRA Rookies would have been made Chunin if they were on CE Shikamaru's level or above in part 1. It's that simple.*" It'd be better to acknowledge that promotion requires factors beside combat strength.



			
				Icegaze said:
			
		

> 9 vs 1 somehow wasn't a gap when a jounin showed up . That was the gap between jounin and chunin there.



Shikamaru clearly overestimated their level initially, because he caught the entire group in his jutsu, making them helpless. If he hadn't sent Naruto ahead, Naruto could've kill them while they were paralyzed.

Shikamaru was quite slow relative to the elites in the CE. KN0, Sasuke, Weightless Lee, and SRA Neji could all move too fast for him to see, just like Asuma. They could likely easily overwhelm those Sound Chunin too.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Shikamaru caught 8 of 9 
Naruto would have been stopped by the 9th or the 9th could have attacked shika to break shika jutsu

Manga clearly established those 9 were >> Naruto team hence the strategy

Naruto knows himself , he just beat neji with Kurama chakra yet he didn't feel he could take on those 9 

it's quite obvious . What the manga is telling us 

Also please answer , what level is war arc Hinata at ? Cuz she shits on the sound 4. And she isn't a jounin level . Like at all

I bring her up cuz she was one of the weakest


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

icegaze said:
			
		

> Also please answer , what level is war arc Hinata at ? Cuz she shits on the sound 4. And she isn't a jounin level . Like at all



If she can beat just SRA base Naruto, then she can plausibly outperform a Jonin (Shizune) in combat against an Elite Jonin (Kabuto.) So that would make her Jonin level in combat, just like SRA Naruto against an Elite Jonin.

There really was zero ambiguity in the manga there. Kabuto beat the shit out of Shizune, then Naruto put him on his face. There's your cut off. And it's not even the low bar for Jonin, as Kabuto's a high Jonin equal to Kakashi.

So there's no way you can get me to believe that:

Butterfly Choji
SRA Neji
Temari, Kamatachi, Shikamaru
Wolf Kiba, Kankuro
Lee, Gaara
Wouldn't do _way _better than Naruto did against an Elite Jonin, let alone get "trashed" based on the Jonin rank alone. All those teams, in my opinion, are heavily superior to Kabuto, despite Kabuto being an Elite Jonin.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Again shitting on 1 jounin or 2 doesn't make you jounin level 

Would be like saying Leicester is on Manchester level because they might win this season . Could be a 1 off 

Hinata beating someone she has a huge advantage against is hardly indicative of her being jounin level 

Considering she is a chunin . Neji isn't a chunin because he operates at a higher level . They got the same techs btw . Kishi decision there to emphasise the difference in their abilities 

how would Hinata handle a jounin like her dad or neji ? Very badly I tell u 

beating sound 4 doesn't make her jounin 

In fact the very fact that a chunin rank can beat them , one who isn't special at all proves my point 

If you can say she is jounin level for beating 1 jounin 

Then the sound 4 are chunin level for loosing to Hinata who is a chunin 

Can't have it both ways sadgoob

I can simply provide more examples of chunin murdering sound 4 than you can of sound 4 beating jounin 

That same fodder invisible jounin would still beat jirobo btw.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

> Again shitting on 1 jounin or 2 doesn't make you jounin level



If shitting on one or two Jonin in combat doesn't make your combat level that of a Jonin, then what does, in your opinion?


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2016)

What does "SRA" mean exactly? I'm still new to all of these terms.


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## Itachі (Mar 27, 2016)

Sasuke Retrieval Arc.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2016)

Strat is getting _way_ too overt with trying to drive that agenda.

Acting like he lost his freaking mind or something. 


To go ahead and reply or not...


----------



## Saru (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'd say yes, as he was selected by Orochimaru to receive the Curse Seal. That's something only special potentials that Orochimaru is interested in receive, particularly those he considers viable and worthy hosts.




... It's not the same. Anko was chosen to receive the Cursed Seal as well, and she wasn't any sort of prodigy. In addition, Orochimaru endowed  plenty of other fodder with the Cursed Seal, most of whom died in the process, so that fact destroys an argument for Sakon's potential being made on the basis of the Cursed Seal.



> Moreover, from their databook stats, we can see that they're Tokubetsu Jonin in base, as they have "5" in scores un-aided by CS senjutsu. Sakon has a 5 in ninjutsu, Tayuya a 5 in genjutsu, Jirobo a 5 in strength, etc.




Calling them Tokubetsu Jounin doesn't make them Tokubetsu Jounin.

Do you know who else had a 5 in a stat? Rock Lee--in taijutsu. In spite of this, Rock Lee was also a Chuunin in Part II.




> To put this in context, Sakon was an _entire tier_ more skilled in ninjutsu than _Wind Arc Naruto_. If that doesn't make him a prodigy, then I don't know what does. CS senjutsu gives him prodigious physical stats too.




Naruto focused on developing other aspects of his strength aside from ninjutsu, and his ninjutsu arsenal wasn't even that impressive. Rasengan, Oodama Rasengan, FRS, Kuchiyose no Jutsu, and Kage Bunshin. Compare this to people like Itachi, Kakashi, and Jiraiya, and it becomes apparent that Naruto's ninjutsu mastery is not that impressive. In addition, the ninjutsu stat caps out at 5 in the Databook, so those aforementioned characters have ninjutsu mastery which is demonstrably far beyond that of Sakon.

The Cursed Seal does not make a shinobi a prodigy. You're not using the word in the same context as I was when discussing Kakashi's natural ability.




> Ninja's stealth is a sign of level. We saw that it was impossible for some to avoid Jonin detection, but the Sound 4 did that and more. Sasuke mentions when first meeting Gaara that Gaara has Jonin level stealth.




I don't recall the encounter you're referring to, but firstly, that doesn't negate the fact that the Village was in a weakened state. Secondly, having skill in one particular area doesn't make you a Jounin.




> Totally off topic though, this is what I was talking about in the Itachi being worried about Naruto, not Jiraiya, thing. You can see Orochimaru is more worried about Naruto than Jiraiya too. A loose seal would be a big problem.




See, this is why I like your posts: you take notice of things that other people don't.

But this is the opposite problem. Everyone else can see that, from a feats-based and certainly a portrayal-based perspective, the Sound Four are below someone of Kakashi's caliber. Kimimaro is closer to Kakashi's level, and he has the feats and hype for an argument to be made with regards to his standing among other Jounin and even Kage-level ninja. The Sound Four don't have a leg to stand on, so I'm left scratching my head on why you keep pushing this issue.



Sadgoob said:


> Besides, Base SRA Naruto with a broken leg defeated Kabuto, an Elite Jonin that was said to be on Kakashi's level several times throughout part one _*directly after*_ Kabuto easily destroyed Shizune.
> 
> The level gap for the elite Rookies was gone by SRA, and Naruto/Shizune proved it. CS Sasuke, SRA Neji, Butterfly Choji, Temari's Kuchiyose, Wolf Kiba, the Sound Five in CS2, etc. are all at _least_ comparable to base SRA Naruto, and _could_ therefore plausibly outperform Shizune in battle just like Naruto did.




You're taking things way out of context. I agree with AP entirely. Not only was Kabuto's clash with Naruto an example of extreme underestimation on the former's behalf, Kabuto came out of that clash victorious.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> To go ahead and reply or not...



I'm not really sure how you can without flat out hand-waving an SRA Genin defeating an Elite Jonin directly after that Elite Jonin raped another Jonin.

You have to do a whole _lot_ of ignoring facts to maintain the belief in a unilateral rank gap, which has been my argument all along.



			
				Saru said:
			
		

> But this is the opposite problem. Everyone else can see that, from a feats-based and certainly a portrayal-based perspective, the Sound Four are below someone of Kakashi's caliber.



SRA Naruto defeating Kabuto, someone repeatedly stated to be at Kakashi's level, and saving Shizune, portrays the opposite.

I mean, if you won't accept an SRA Genin beating someone that _just_ _*easily*_ beat a Jonin, then what _would_ you accept?


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If she can beat just SRA base Naruto, then she can plausibly outperform a Jonin (Shizune) in combat against an Elite Jonin (Kabuto.) So that would make her Jonin level in combat, just like SRA Naruto against an Elite Jonin.
> 
> There really was zero ambiguity in the manga there. Kabuto beat the shit out of Shizune, then Naruto put him on his face. There's your cut off. And it's not even the low bar for Jonin, as Kabuto's a high Jonin equal to Kakashi.
> 
> ...



So please explain how Kabuto in part 1 slaps away Naruto who attacked him from behind after Naruto trained for 2 years with Jiriaya 

Yet you think part 1 Naruto is somehow comparable to Kabuto 

Try look at everything and not just what you want to see 

Hinata stands a much much better chance of beating part 1 Naruto than shizune that much should be obvious . Based on their respective fighting styles


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If shitting on one or two Jonin in combat doesn't make your combat level that of a Jonin, then what does, in your opinion?



So basically in a manga with 30+ jounin characters you would consider Hinata on their level for beating the weakest of them all

Isn't that massively biased 

How about fighting styles ? Or respective advantages that come into play ?

How many named jounin with feats can sound 4 beat 1 on 1. Neji ain't no elite he got the title of jounin he clowns them 

So one would consider sound 4 jounin for beating kid Kakashi if that's even possible . That's biased


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> I'm not really sure how you can without flat out hand-waving an SRA Genin defeating an Elite Jonin directly after that Elite Jonin raped another Jonin.



You'll see at some point today.



> You have to do a whole _lot_ of ignoring facts



Put the mirror up.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Yet you think part 1 Naruto is somehow comparable to Kabuto



Based on him, you know, intercepting and beating Kabuto.

Starting with low chakra and a broken leg. (before fighting Kabuto.)

After Kabuto easily beat Shizune. (this is before fighting Naruto.)

So yeah, guys. The manga was so good at "portraying" that gap.

I don't know _why_ I would think the SRA kids could hang with Jonin.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Prove he was 

Did his stat change ? Where was it said orochimaru trained him. Panels . Unlike Naruto who we know was actively being trained 

Oh Kk so part 1 Naruto > part 2 start Naruto 

Not bad . I guess in 2 years of training he got weaker


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Not bad . I guess in 2 years of training he got weaker



Dude. Kabuto beat _*one*_ Naruto clone in part 2 and you think he's > Naruto based on that. Think about how retarded that argument is.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Dude. Kabuto beat _*one*_ Naruto clone in part 2 and you think he's > Naruto based on that. Think about how retarded that argument is.



Naruto also blind sided him
And nothing start of part 2 Naruto did showed him as Kabuto superior in fact Naruto looked underwhelmly weaker 

But didn't Naruto part 1 clone rasengan Kabuto ? Wouldn't that mean part 1 Naruto clone > part 2 Naruto clone 

Since you use stats even start of part 2 Naruto was well below Kabuto what does that tell you


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Stats *totals* don't matter. Look at Shizune's stat total. Look at Naruto's stat total. Which one did better against Kabuto?

Whose total is higher: Asuma or Kazekage Gaara?

Kabuto beat a few of part one Naruto's clones too. It didn't matter much then, just like it doesn't matter in part two.

Just like beating a Naruto clone has _*never*_ mattered. The vast majority of people Naruto has beaten have easily beaten his clones.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2016)

Look at part 2 Naruto stat look at part 1 naruto stat 

Which one beat Kabuto ? Part 1 Naruto again Naruto clone was the main reason Kabuto ate the rasengan does that put part 1 clone above part 2 ?

Base part 1 Naruto beat Kabuto yet he needed Kn1 to beat neji does that put CE neji above Kabuto ?


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## Saru (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> SRA Naruto defeating Kabuto, someone repeatedly stated to be at Kakashi's level, and saving Shizune, portrays the opposite.




Well, Naruto didn't defeat Kabuto, so...



> I mean, if you won't accept an SRA Genin beating someone that _just_ _*easily*_ beat a Jonin, then what _would_ you accept?




Kabuto's performance against Shizune actually suggests that Kakashi is _that_ much stronger than his peers (e.g. Kurenai, Anko, Shizune, etc.) since those two were made out to be equals. Kakashi would defeat Shizune with the same amount of difficulty that Kabuto had--probably even using the same Doton digging strategy. The Sound Four were worn out after fighting Genma and Raido, and yet you want me to believe they can pose a threat to someone of Kakashi's stature? 

It's unfathomable.​


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Totally off topic though, this is what I was talking about in the Itachi being worried about Naruto, not Jiraiya, thing. You can see Orochimaru is more worried about Naruto than Jiraiya too. A loose seal would be a big problem.



A mistranslation. What Orochimaru actually states is that the only ninjas capable of breaking that formula he placed on Naruto were the Third Hokage or another one of the Sannin. Kabuto then realizes that that likely meant Jiraiya had already broken the seal, to which Orochimaru replies that it would seem so if Naruto was able to draw on the Nine Tails' Chakra.



> It is probable that the Jonin Examination had similar requirements stretching beyond pure combat ability, and that ninja with adequate combat ability were passed up for promotion based on other reasons.



And the databook suggests those other traits besides combat ability were considered less important in promotions back in the day. It could have been the case that during wartime the village decided it would be easier to designate select ninja with leadership roles and then rank the rest primarily by the degrees to which their combat ability reached so that they could focus more on other matters.



> He was stated to be already Chunin level in the context of a Chunin Examination. He may well have been Jonin level in combat ability, as his feats surpass those of Kid Kakashi, Taiseki, Mahiru, Shizune, etc. Especially with the CS.



The Exam was cancelled and the village was attacked, so Genma said Sasuke should help out on the basis of Sasuke already being _at_, not past, the Chūnin-level. It was a straightforward observation of Sasuke’s battle ability. If Sasuke had just performed at the level of a Jōnin that's what Genma would have said, yet it isn't what Genma said and that leaves no good reason to think Sasuke was Jōnin level at the time.

"Feat-wise" Kakashi, Taiseki, Mahiru, and Shizune still surpass Genma and Raidō (let alone the Genma and Raidō coming off of a long mission) who you keep trying to blow up by appealing to how they’re likely capable of more than what we saw on-panel (spitting a toothpick), as if that doesn’t apply to everybody else as well and as if Shizune doesn’t either match or surpass Genma in every stat besides Tai and Power. The similarities between kid Kakashi and Sasuke start _and finish_ at Chidori, a Jutsu that wasn’t what earned Kakashi a promotion because Kakashi was promoted to Jōnin _prior to_ revealing Chidori. Kakashi was capable of handling himself in close-quarters with Kakkō one-on-one even without that Jutsu, which is very nice considering that Kakkō still wasn't _immediately_ overwhelmed when Obito joined with a Sharingan active.



> Jonin level likely requires further testing and isn't immediately apparent.



There's a final exam for academy students, a Genin Certification Exam, and Chūnin Exams. Special Jōnin and Jōnin are simply selected and appointed according to the Konoha Promotion System of the first fanbook.



> But I think an Elite Jonin sweating, wide-eyed, and saying "Impossible..." warrants Sasuke being low Jonin level. And he wasn't even using CS.



Well it doesn't warrant that, simply that Baki found it shocking for another competitor in the Chūnin Exams to breach Gaara's shield. It's likely Baki was of the impression that Gaara was the strongest competitor in the exams like Kankuro and Temari were.



> I'm pretty sure Shikamaru stated they were likely _above_ Chunin level. Besides, Sakura is Genin level, Shikamaru is Chunin level, and base Naruto prior to Rasengan training is high Chunin. 9 vs 3 is a huge numbers gap.



You shouldn't be as many times as I've corrected you about the translation before. He said they were _"probably Chūnin or above"_, which means _"at least Chūnin"_, not _"above Chūnin"_. Sakura, at least in a forest which is what they were in, could be called an elite Genin. You stated that lesser Jōnin were like CE Lee, being _"capable of blitzing countless Chūnin fodder"_. Lee routinely got his butt handed to him by Neji who Shikamaru watched Naruto knock out, so a 3 on 9 number advantage shouldn't have screwed the team unless you were mistaken about Lee ~ lesser Jōnin.



Sadgoob said:


> Naruto _undeniably_ outperformed Shizune against Kabuto. Both fighters were down. Kabuto because he took a Rasengan. Naruto because his leg and other bones had been broken previously, not because of what Kabuto did in the clash.





> That was three years late. Both developed.



Yet Kabuto’s guidebook parameters were identical to what they were pre-skip, so if he could do something like that when Naruto's were much closer to his own, that simply goes to show how shoddy that blatant misrepresentation of what happened in Part 1 was.

Kabuto stated the fracture in Naruto's leg wouldn't have prevented him from moving, so that wasn't what Naruto was downed by. Naruto was on the ground because of Kabuto shredding heart muscles (y’know, an injury that could have actually resulted in blood being coughed out of Naruto’s mouth) during the Rasengan, the Rasengan which Naruto only lived long enough to attempt because Kabuto was initially giving Naruto the chance to simply back off and run away by playing around.

Kabuto was impressed with Shizune at their first meeting, and Orochimaru thought it would be trouble if Shizune were to meet them with Tsunade again, but Kabuto stated that even expecting something from the Nine Tails (he was there for the match with Neji) Naruto was a total disappointment when they were face to face with the Sannin. It was also _after_ Kabuto made a monkey of Naruto and Jiraiya reaffirmed _what Kabuto said_ that Shizune was told to face the Sound spy. After that Kabuto evaded Naruto's first Rasengan attempt and then cut Naruto's lateral vestus while thinking that regardless of what kind of Jutsu Naruto had picked up it'd never hit him with big motions like that, then when Naruto still didn't run away Kabuto smacked Naruto across the grass again. Even when Kabuto stopped using the Chakra Scalpel and stabbed Naruto in the hand, Naruto's subsequent hit was negated by In'yū Shōmetsu. If Kabuto had attacked Shizune with a kunai stab instead of a Chakra Scalpel she could have done what Naruto did, except better because her techniques could have finished Kabuto then and there unlike a Rasengan.

Naruto was outclassed 8 ways to Sunday by every single person on that field.



> Well, first, Shikamaru overestimated their level if he easily caught all nine in Kage Mane, plain and simple. If Shikamaru caught them all, then you can expect that KN0 would've torn them up like Asuma.



He caught eight, the ninth was about to strike before Asuma showed up. Shikamaru managing to catch the ninjas in Kage-mane doesn't mean that he overestimated their level if he thought he might have a chance to survive delaying them _when_ he estimated their level.

Shikamaru wasn't standing in front of them the whole time when he managed it either- he activated that Jutsu while he was out of sight, and _then_ walked out in front of them.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2016)

You can say what Kidōmaru said, which is that the Sound 4 would have been dead if they'd held back.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, Naruto didn't defeat Kabuto, so...



Well, whatever you'd call Naruto making Kabuto go face first into the dirt then. Which is a lot more than Shizune accomplished.

And that was SRA Naruto with a _broken leg and low on chakra._ Imagine what he could've done to Kabuto if fresh and KN0. Kabuto would've been trashed.



Icegaze said:


> Base part 1 Naruto beat Kabuto yet he needed Kn1 to beat neji does that put CE neji above Kabuto ?



He used KN0 to beat Neji. And why wouldn't Neji be able to beat Kabuto? Neji's better at taijutsu and can see Kabuto's sneak attacks coming with the Byakugan.

They both fought base Naruto, although Kabuto fought a slightly more developed (albeit injured and weakened) Naruto with Rasengan training. Neji did better.



			
				Flamingrain said:
			
		

> A mistranslation



Do you have the viz translation so I may judge for myself?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 27, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Do you have the viz translation so I may judge for myself?



The Viz goes: _"The Art of Summoning!!"

"It's that Nine-Tailed Fox kid from the Chūnin Exam... // I probably should've killed him...// I let him go then out of consideration for the Akatsuki..."

"But The Five-Pronged Seal can only be removed...//...by certain shinobi, including myself, and the Third Hokage..."

"You mean that Naruto's seal...Jiraiya has already..."

"It seems so...if he can control the Nine Tailed Fox's power."_​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 27, 2016)

Aw yeah, that is nothing like the fan translation. I was wrong. Thank you for providing it!


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Well, whatever you'd call Naruto making Kabuto go face first into the dirt then. Which is a lot more than Shizune accomplished.
> 
> And that was SRA Naruto with a _broken leg and low on chakra._ Imagine what he could've done to Kabuto if fresh and KN0. Kabuto would've been trashed.




I'd call it losing since Naruto would have died had Tsunade not been there.

Refer to the scan AP posted. It shows how Kabuto would handle Naruto when he's not underestimating him.​


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## Ersa (Mar 28, 2016)

Something I find funny is if Jiraiya or Tsunade has received the hype of being able to turn a multi-village war around then most of these Kimimaro not even Jounin debaters would be frothing at the mouth.

Oh don't mind me, just amused at the hypocrisy. 

Carry on, my friends.


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## Matty (Mar 28, 2016)

Kimimaro can be considered low kage with his entire arsenal and his health. SRA GAARA was easily jounin level if not bordering special jounin. Losing to him while sick is not a hindrance at all to these facts and the fact that he all but won if he wasn't sick shows even with a huge matchup disadvantage he is still a deadly and skilled opponent


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2016)

If people want the real answer on how the ranks work, rather than the fandom utilization of them, the Naruto-Fanbook pretty clearly outlines that Shinobi Ranks:

"Konoha Ninja are divided into five main ranks. These are given out based on raw strength and capability, and each rank has different duties and missions"

The underlined bits are important things to bare in mind. Firstly the specification that Konoha Ninja are divided into five ranks means other villages have a different ranking system (for example the Fan-book mentions that Kumo has a Rank between Jonin and Raikage, "Shinobi Rulers"). Secondly the ranks are based on raw strength and capability, which means that other skills factor into rank promotions. Which brings us to each Rank having specific duties and missions, they are expected to be capable of accomplishing in-order to qualify for that specific rank.

The fanbook also outlines these requirements for each rank, very clearly:

Chunin are, "required to have the ability to command a small squad of shinobi. This means more than simple skill - they are also required to have leadership ability and good judgment"  The Chunnin Selection Exams, "Tests to see if you have the knowledge and character required to lead a squad".

Basically being promoted to Chunin has very little to do w/ simply raw strength, and instead focuses on knowledge and leadership. That's why Naruto wasn't promoted to Chunin despite beating a Chunin in Chapter 1 (Mizuki) and improving drastically since then; and only Shikkamaru was promoted. 

Jonin "have reached the peak of shinobi forces through knowledge and courage. Their purpose - to demonstrate their incredible skills on the front lines, guiding and training young shinobi, and passing on their skills". 

You'll take note that raw strength is never mentioned once, but rather the focus is on their knowledge, courage, and skill. Meaning they are the most skilled Ninja in the village, but that doesn't have to be in individual combat, it can be in other areas. This is why you have someone like Shizune who can loose 1v1 to lower ranked Shinobi, but overall is superior for her capabilities outside of strength. 

This brings us to Hokage/Kage. "The "Kage" name is only granted to individuals powerful enough to lead those five hidden villages" "The Gokage stand at the pinnacle of the tens of thousands of ninja in the world" "The village lives and dies with the Hokage" 

So the Hokage/Kage title also isn't about raw might in 1v1 combat, it's about being among the best Shinobi in the entire world and having the capability to protect the village and lead it. So it's the difference between being the best Shinobi and being the strongest. Which is why someone like Tsunade is still more fit to be Hokage than a character like Gai who would beat or at least draw w/ her in 1v1 combat, because at his best he's stronger than her, but she is by far the better Shinobi.
------

So if we want to go by the actual meaning of the ranks, and rank Kimi and Gaara off that.

Kimi has lead the Sound 4 before and Gaara essentially lead a successful mission to back up Konoha in SRA, so both of them are probably qualified to be Chunin. But to me they don't measure up to most Jonin in overall capability as a Shinobi and I don't think they have the wisdom to be masters to students yet ether. And there is no way they measure up to the Kages, who are the best Shinobi in their respective villages (some minor exceptions aside), nor do they have the skills demanded to be leader or protect a hidden village.

Now in fairness this is comparing them to PII Kages/Jonin, because we didn't see many Kages/Jonin fight in PI, and it's not clear which power-scale we should hold them to considering they fought in the tail end of PI, which is why I'd be open to potential arguments for them being qualified to be Jonin (though I have my doubts especially w/ Gaara), but it's hard, even baring the above in mind, for me to believe Kishimoto wanted them to be seen as qualified for Kage, considering the way they were treated in PII. Gaara even after 2.5 Years of further training, was still inferior to most Kages skill wise, and Kimi being treated nowhere near a Kage Class threat in the 4th Shinobi war, and in-fact treated as a lesser threat than many top Jonin class characters like Asuma, Zabuza, etc... Basically You'd think if Kishimoto intended for ether of these characters to be anywhere near Kage Class, that Gaara would be much more skilled and among the best Kages after 2.5 Year timeskip, and Kimi would be much much more highlighted in the war. 

-----

The above is of course going off how the manga determines a Shinobi qualifies for Ranks, not the way that most the NBD does (which I used to agree w/ but don't anymore), that simply values individual combat ability 1v1. If we go off that healthy Kimi may qualified for Kage-level, if we saw him fight an extended battle on a PII power-scale, simply because he might have a chance to defeat a few of thee weakest Kages 1v1, while being a vastly inferior Shinobi overall. Though i'm certainly not sure if that would be the case, and certainly Kimi does not have the feats currently to beat any currently shown Kage.


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## Matty (Mar 28, 2016)

Very good post, Turrin. Enjoyed the read. I'm strictly asking if his skillset and power level equate to being a Low Kage. I believe it is. How do you feel about this?


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

Saru said:
			
		

> I'd call it losing since Naruto would have died had Tsunade not been there.



Regardless, if base SRA Naruto nearly out of chakra and with a broken leg put Kabuto down (to where he couldn't move,) then it can be expected that a fresh and uninjured Naruto would've won the exchange. KN0 would've dominated.

After all, we saw base SRA Sasuke doing better against a non-injured, non-drained SRA Naruto, and KN0 just... raped the shit out of Sasuke. There's a huge, huge gap in power between KN0 and an injured and drained base Naruto.

And Kimimaro, someone a lot of people assume Kabuto is equal-ish to, just laughably outperformed Kabuto against Naruto. Like hilariously. It was a bunch of fresh KN0's and clones unable to touch Kimimaro at all.

Kimimaro was "underestimating" Naruto too, but he didn't get put in the dirt.


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

Kabuto's opponent was as good as dead.

And that doesn't negate the fact that Kabuto underestimated Naruto.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2016)

Who said Naruto was nearly out of Chakra and how would that make a difference as to what happened between Kabuto and Naruto?


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> KN0 would've dominated.




With _what_?



> Kimimaro was "underestimating" Naruto too, but he didn't get put in the dirt.




Naruto didn't use Rasengan on Kimimaro.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

Saru said:
			
		

> With what?



Fists.



FlamingRain said:


> Who said Naruto was nearly out of Chakra



.



FlamingRain said:


> and how would that make a difference as to what happened between Kabuto and Naruto?



More chakra is gooder than not more chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

"Orochimaru laughed after the Totsuka. I think Kabuto will be just fine."

"Shoten Itachi smiled from the Rasengan. I think Kabuto will be just fine."

"Jiraiya smiled after black rod stabbings. I think Kabuto will be just fine."


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

Those three things aren't even remotely similar to what I stated above.

>Orochimaru laughed at first. Then he serious'd when the sealing process began.
>Itachi smiled because he was amused by Naruto's thoughts and/or actions.
>Jiraiya was on Death's front door when he smiled. 

None of these situations are like Sasuke chuckling at Naruto's attack, because unlike those other characters you just referenced, *Sasuke was perfectly fine*.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

Your argument that because Sasuke laughed after he got his ass kicked somehow means that he could tank KN0 all day, and even if could, that that applies to Kabuto too. None of that is good reasoning.

And dude, Sasuke was not fine. Also notice that Naruto was holding back lethality, or even crippling attacks. He was reasoning with him. He said _*if*_ he didn't cooperate, he'd break him like a stick and bring him back immobile. 

Kabuto also won't develop the 3-tomoe to be able to react to KN0. He'd be totally helpless given his performance against an injured and drained base Naruto, when Naruto was able to grab Kabuto's hand mid-strike.


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

The scan you're linking me to shows Sasuke being pinned down by Naruto. The scan I linked to comes _after_ the scan you linked to, and Sasuke's reaction and condition was fine. A little banged up, sure, but so was Naruto. The only difference is that Naruto has a bijuu inside of him that greatly heightens his healing factor.

Moreover, _Sasuke_ was the one to end the exchange by kicking Naruto off of him, showing that he was still able to regain control of the situation. Kabuto would be no different, and he wouldn't need the Sharingan to put one hand on Naruto. 

You can talk about lethal intent if you like, but Sasuke wasn't using his full power either (CS2).


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> .



_"couldn't concentrate my Chakra completely"_ is what Naruto actually said. You could tell by how that Rasengan was illustrated.



> More chakra is gooder than not more chakra.



In general yeah. But it wouldn't have made a difference regarding Kabuto's scalpel attack.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

> Kabuto would be no different, and he wouldn't need the Sharingan to put one hand on Naruto.



If he couldn't stop base Naruto from successfully counter-attacking him, what makes you think he'd handle KN0's speed?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2016)

Naruto grabbed Kabuto's hand when Kabuto drove a kunai though it. At that point speed's importance went out the window.


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## Saru (Mar 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> If he couldn't stop base Naruto from successfully counter-attacking him, what makes you think he'd handle KN0's speed?




Again... Kabuto underestimated Naruto's capabilities. That's the only reason that Naruto was able to sucker punch him. This is made more obvious by the fact that Kabuto reacted to PII Naruto's speed in one of the most casual ways I think I've ever seen in the manga. Furthermore, Kabuto has never had a problem dealing with someone else's speed as far as I can remember, and the one time he did feel that he would be unable to keep up physically (when facing Tsunade), he used a Soldier Pill to compensate. 

Kabuto has a number of offensive and supplementary options at his disposal to mitigate a speed advantage, and as I've tried to point out, that version of Naruto lacked the offensive potency to critically injure Kabuto when feral.​


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## Sadgoob (Mar 28, 2016)

Flamingrain said:
			
		

> Naruto grabbed Kabuto's hand when Kabuto drove a kunai though it. At that point speed's importance went out the window.



If you assume Kabuto was only aiming for Naruto's hand, a non-killing blow, after screaming _"I'll give you death!"_ And ignore Kabuto's inability to avoid being gripped, or to subsequently escape that grip.

What actually happened is that Naruto lifted his hand _in response_ to Kabuto's attack, purposefully took the kunai, and then gripped him so that he could land the Rasengan on Kabuto cleanly. And it worked.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 28, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Only if you assume Kabuto was aiming for Naruto's outstretched hand when he said he was going for a killer blow. And showed shock when Naruto countered that way.



Naruto simply needed to raise his hand up so that it was in the line of the kunai thrust, but when you said _"counter-attack"_ I thought you meant the Rasengan itself.


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## Turrin (Mar 28, 2016)

Matty said:


> Very good post, Turrin. Enjoyed the read. I'm strictly asking if his skillset and power level equate to being a Low Kage. I believe it is. How do you feel about this?


I think I answered this in my original post here:



> it's not clear which power-scale we should hold them to considering they fought in the tail end of PI, which is why I'd be open to potential arguments for them being qualified to be Jonin (though I have my doubts especially w/ Gaara), but it's hard, even baring the above in mind, for me to believe Kishimoto wanted them to be seen as qualified for Kage, considering the way they were treated in PII. Gaara even after 2.5 Years of further training, was still inferior to most Kages skill wise, and Kimi being treated nowhere near a Kage Class threat in the 4th Shinobi war, and in-fact treated as a lesser threat than many top Jonin class characters like Asuma, Zabuza, etc... Basically You'd think if Kishimoto intended for ether of these characters to be anywhere near Kage Class, that Gaara would be much more skilled and among the best Kages after 2.5 Year timeskip, and Kimi would be much much more highlighted in the war.
> 
> -----
> 
> The above is of course going off how the manga determines a Shinobi qualifies for Ranks, not the way that most the NBD does (which I used to agree w/ but don't anymore), that simply values individual combat ability 1v1. If we go off that healthy Kimi may qualified for Kage-level, if we saw him fight an extended battle on a PII power-scale, simply because he might have a chance to defeat a few of thee weakest Kages 1v1, while being a vastly inferior Shinobi overall. Though i'm certainly not sure if that would be the case, and certainly Kimi does not have the feats currently to beat any currently shown Kage.



To summarize I believe in terms of overall ability as a Shinobi Kages > Top Jonin > Kimi w/ everything else being debatable. In strictly 1v1 combat ability, it's hard to rate Kimi's overall ability due to his display occurring in PI.


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## Icegaze (Mar 29, 2016)

Turrin
How about Kimi performance in part 2
The retcon that took place 
Finally since he is stronger than Jugo doesn't Kimi get scaled up


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