# How strong is Hanzo of the salamander?



## Symmetry (Sep 21, 2019)

use any bit of portrayal you can (since it’s based on actual naruto lore). 

Is he high kage? Mid kage? Where should we play him? Who is he relative to? Why?


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## Kai (Sep 21, 2019)

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He's easily High Kage, doing this against Nagato.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 21, 2019)

If Jiraiya was actually astonished that Hanzō lost to an Akatsuki member he has to be well beyond people like its mid-level members not just slightly above them, but at the same time he shouldn't be in the tier ahead of the Great Three because the one who said he would much rather avoid trouble like taking on another went on planning to kill the guy who killed Hanzō.

That places him somewhere in the lesser half of high Kage-level imo.

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## hbcaptain (Sep 21, 2019)

He was High Kage in his prime.

Featwise :
-The salamander's poison gaz AoE is underrated.
-He can use and control concealed explosive tags that even a Rinnegan can't detect.
-Stronger than Mifune in CQC, also quite fast since he exchanged with the latter and dodged Nagato's dragon with Shunshin.
-He has an unknown AoE ninjutsu which would've wiped the whole Samurai unit if not for Mifune preventing him from using handseals.

Hypewise :
-He would've defeated Pain if he kept training.
-Jiraya was shocked that someone actually managed to beat him.
-He stands alone .


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## ~Kakashi~ (Sep 21, 2019)

Something else to keep in mind though is Chiyo was able to fight him on multiple occasions and seemingly repeatedly stalemate him.


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## Charmed (Sep 21, 2019)

He's Mid Kage, the same tier as the Sannin and Chiyo.

No, he's not High Kage because he fought against a 16 y/o Nagato.
Also, Nagato wanted to save Konan first. So he got distracted.

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## riousrain (Sep 21, 2019)

Higher end of Mid-Kage to lower end of High Kage.
Probably equal to or a bit higher than prime sannin individually (SM Jiraiya, Byakugo Tsunade, WA Orochimaru).


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## Bonly (Sep 21, 2019)

In his Prime he’d prolly be towards the top of High Kage lvl but as he got rusty he prolly moved down to Mid Kage lvl


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## sabre320 (Sep 21, 2019)

His prime level was to the extent that even pein was doubtfull that he could have beaten him if he kept sharp.
Sm jirayia admitted inferiority to him and thought him to be unbeatable.
He is top high kage level by hype.


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## savior2005 (Sep 21, 2019)

In His actual prime he was High kage level, around the sannin level give or take (as Jman, while surprised that Hanzo lost, was still confident enough to confront Hanzo's killer)

Before his death, he was considerably weaker than his prime, judging from what Pain and Mifune stated. This was due to him growing lazy and losing his conviction.

Had he stuck with his convictions and grown stronger instead of weaker, I think he could have gone 50/50 with Pain.


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## Cichy (Oct 19, 2019)

Mid kage in his prime, low kage when rusty.

I don't think poison gas is enough to put him in high kage tier. Sasori also had that and much much more, but most people still consider him mid kage. Also, he only fought the young and inexperienced sannin that were probably far before their prime.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Oct 19, 2019)

Somewhere between SM Jiraiya and Pain depending on which statement you go by.


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## Reddan (Oct 19, 2019)

Orochimaru and Jiraiya are high kage level. Orochimaru killed Rasa and then went and killed the strongest of the Gokage: Hiruzen.

Jiraiya thinks he could walk in and take out Gaara. Jiraiya thinks he is the reason keeping the Akatsuki from taking down Naruto. 

Even after he finds out Pain took out Hanzo, Jiraiya thinks he can beat him and does not immediately try to enter SM. 

Apart from Bee, though even he has been hiding for 13 years, I don't think there are any known living ninjas stronger than the Sannin. 

So Prime Hanzo might be just below Old Hiruzen, around Onoki level. When he became rusty I would put him at low kage close to Mei level and Rasa level.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 19, 2019)

I think he’s one of those characters like Shisui where the hype doesn’t match the on panel results , he used Hanzo as a hype tool for the Sannin but we have no clue how stronger they were back then , we know Orochimaru had no body mods or Edo Tensei , Jiraiya didn’t use SM as Orochimaru never references Jiraiya as having it and it wouldn’t make sense for him to think he’s better than J-Man who had an ability he tried to acquire himself and failed , Tsunade who knows it seems to me her hype then was around her being.  a medic , to me this would be equivalent to if team 7 fought Base J-Man and impressed him , Most Mid/High Kage could take on 3 jounin level characters so to me if you take it off baseless hype he’s mid-high Kage .


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 19, 2019)

much stronger than Shinzo of the newt...


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## Symmetry (Oct 20, 2019)

I’d like to point out hanzo Genuinely  did better against prime Nagato then KCM naruto lmao. I doubt that hanzo is in the realm of kcm naruto but I just thought that was funny, and for sure puts him at high kage for me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Oct 20, 2019)

Charmed said:


> He's Mid Kage, the same tier as the Sannin and Chiyo.
> 
> No, he's not High Kage because he fought against a 16 y/o Nagato.
> Also, Nagato wanted to save Konan first. So he got distracted.




I mean yea he wanted to save konan but Hanzo also flawlessly dodged the gedo mazo and even though Nagato was trying to save konan, I think considering he has hax like bansho tenin and ST, that hitting him is still a good feat.


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## Trojan (Oct 20, 2019)

nothing special. Jonin or low-kage at best.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 20, 2019)

Slightly below prime Hiruzen


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## Haseyo (Oct 20, 2019)

Hanzo is apparently a very good swimmer


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Hanzo abilities that he showed can essentially beat anyone who doesn’t have knowledge of poison immunity / resistance; this automatically puts him in the ‘High Kage’ territory for me. Hype wise he’s at least on that level as Jiraiya believe it was impossible that Orochimaru+ level AL could beat Hanzo solo; and Pain at least had doubts on his victory if Hanzo wasn’t Rusty.

People saying he didn’t show it need to reconsider how broken Ibusei Poison Breath and Hanzo’s is. To give one example replace Zabuza in the WA with Hanzo and Ibusei used his poison breath instead of Demonic Mist and that entire division is one-shot


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> If Jiraiya was actually astonished that Hanzō lost to an Akatsuki member he has to be well beyond people like its mid-level members not just slightly above them, but at the same time he shouldn't be in the tier ahead of the Great Three because the one who said he would much rather avoid trouble like taking on another went on planning to kill the guy who killed Hanzō.
> 
> That places him somewhere in the lesser half of high Kage-level imo.


He didn’t believe the fodder that Pain solo’d Hanzo thats why; and likely assumed the other Akatsuki members helped Pain. Kishimoto not going to show us Hanzo easily soloing the Sannin with Jiraiya jerking him off in strength if he wants us to believe Hanzo is weaker then a Single Sannin.

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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think he’s one of those characters like Shisui where the hype doesn’t match the on panel results , he used Hanzo as a hype tool for the Sannin but we have no clue how stronger they were back then , we know Orochimaru had no body mods or Edo Tensei , Jiraiya didn’t use SM as Orochimaru never references Jiraiya as having it and it wouldn’t make sense for him to think he’s better than J-Man who had an ability he tried to acquire himself and failed , Tsunade who knows it seems to me her hype then was around her being.  a medic , to me this would be equivalent to if team 7 fought Base J-Man and impressed him , Most Mid/High Kage could take on 3 jounin level characters so to me if you take it off baseless hype he’s mid-high Kage .


The Sannin were very likely ‘Top Jonin’, considering their moniker Hanzo gave them is based on their Summonings, which means they likely had their Boss Summons at the time, which is already enough to put them each at the very Top of Jonin level, if not Kage. We also have to remember that Jiraiya said Nagato knew a lot of his Jutsu, meaning he had many of his Base Jutsu masters when he faced Hanzo. So again this would put them very close to ‘Low Kage’; and they probably were pretty much close to their Base Power without Yamaha, Byakugou, and SM; which I’d say makes them Low-Kage.

Almost no Mid-Kage is betting 3 Low-Kage with top notch team work, let alone seemingly with very little difficulty. For example even if you put BoS Sasuke without CS, WA Sakura without Byakugo, and IA Naruto on the same team; they are going to beat every Mid-Kage. Even some high Kage may loose to them that’s how tough that team is. Hanzo low diffed 


And as for his feats not holding up; who can even counter Ibusei and Hanzo breath without knowledge

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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

The way to counter poison mist.

1. Hold your breath.
2. Use a futon.

Sasori's use of poison seem much more efficient to me.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> The way to counter poison mist.
> 
> 1. Hold your breath.
> 2. Use a futon.
> ...


That works if you know it’s poison, but nether Ibusei or Hanzo breath give any signs that they are poison; that’s the problem


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Hanzo abilities that he showed can essentially beat anyone who doesn’t have knowledge of poison immunity / resistance; this automatically puts him in the ‘High Kage’ territory for me. Hype wise he’s at least on that level as Jiraiya believe it was impossible that Orochimaru+ level AL could beat Hanzo solo; and Pain at least had doubts on his victory if Hanzo wasn’t Rusty.
> 
> People saying he didn’t show it need to reconsider how broken Ibusei Poison Breath and Hanzo’s is. To give one example replace Zabuza in the WA with Hanzo and Ibusei used his poison breath instead of Demonic Mist and that entire division is one-shot


Once again intelligent ninjas use clones to asses their opponent and gain information. Even a ninja of Kakashi's level is likely to switch out with his clone and be hiding underground waiting for his opportunity.

SM users might be able to sense the poison.
Sharingan could possibly see it, Byakugan definitely can see it.
Orochimaru and Sasori are immune. 
Tsunade could possibly heal from the effects long enough to do someting.


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That works if you know it’s poison, but nether Ibusei or Hanzo breath give any signs that they are poison; that’s the problem


The big purple cloud of smoke just screams poison. 

When Shizune used poison mist against Kabuto in part 1 he immidiately relized whats going on and was able to counter it. Hanzo's poison mist is just enhanced version of Shizune's jutsu.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Once again intelligent ninjas use clones to asses their opponent and gain information. Even a ninja of Kakashi's level is likely to switch out with his clone and be hiding underground waiting for his opportunity.
> 
> SM users might be able to sense the poison.
> Sharingan could possibly see it, Byakugan definitely can see it.
> ...


1. No one has done this ever against similar Techniques. And Bushin switch is meaningless anyway as the person would still be inside the AOE of the Gas; and breathing it in; it’s not like Bushin switch teleports someone miles away lol.

2. What would they sense exactly it’s just a biological function of Hanzo and Ibusei; and we know SM can’t sense poison as Naruto grabs a poisoned Kunai unaware it’s poisoned 

3. Again see what? It’s a biological function; we have seen Byakugan tell someone something is poisoned before 

4.  Orochimaru has poison resistance, but not to every poison 

5. Sasori is fair 

6. Even if Tsunade can heal it for a time; thats a best a draw


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> The big purple cloud of smoke just screams poison.
> 
> When Shizune used poison mist against Kabuto in part 1 he immidiately relized whats going on and was able to counter it. Hanzo's poison mist is just enhanced version of Shizune's jutsu.


Not to mention the Sannin managed to fight for some time, so they survived the poison too.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> The big purple cloud of smoke just screams poison.
> 
> When Shizune used poison mist against Kabuto in part 1 he immidiately relized whats going on and was able to counter it. Hanzo's poison mist is just enhanced version of Shizune's jutsu.


It’s not purple in the manga


Shizune’s cloud is a different color then normal smoke; and Shizune is a medical expert well versed in poisons.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Not to mention the Sannin managed to fight for some time, so they survived the poison too.


No clue how long they fought for


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## narut0ninjafan (Oct 20, 2019)

Supposedly high kage in his prime but prime Hanzo is a retconned myth, his portrayal was literally only ever introduced solely to hype Pain

I mean what other character is there in the manga that was introduced and given hype solely to hype up a stronger character? 

It's hard to judge his feat of supposedly soloing the Sannin since we don't know the circumstances of the fight and they were a lot weaker back then anyway 

Based on what we saw he's elite jounin level, maybe low kage


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. No one has done this ever against similar Techniques. And Bushin switch is meaningless anyway as the person would still be inside the AOE of the Gas; and breathing it in; it’s not like Bushin switch teleports someone miles away lol.


Yes they do and they can easily escape the range. That is precisely what KB are used for.The whole point of the IA was for Naruto use KB to access the speed, power etc of the enemy. Sasuke had no problem getting away from the range of C4, which is bigger.


> 2. What would they sense exactly it’s just a biological function of Hanzo and Ibusei; and we know SM can’t sense poison as Naruto grabs a poisoned Kunai unaware it’s poisoned


Where does Naruto grab a poisoned kunai? He gets cut by Sasuke using a poisoned kunai, but his SM would be telling him the kunai is dangerous anyway. 

SM seems to alert the users that certain dangerous attacks are coming. Or else SM users would not be able to fight blind. So they would know there was danger coming and to avoid it. Naruto had no choice, but to get cut, because he had to save Sakura.


> 3. Again see what? It’s a biological function; we have seen Byakugan tell someone something is poisoned before


What do you mean a biological function? That doesn't make it special. The Byakugan can see microscopic detail if the ninja is strong enough. They would see the poisonous gas atoms in the air. They would know it is not the normal. Secondly they would even see the poisonous sac he transplanted into his body.


> 4.  Orochimaru has poison resistance, but not to every poison


You can bet he has resistance to Sasori's and Hanzo'os though considering his past experience with then.


> 6. Even if Tsunade can heal it for a time; thats a best a draw


Well no, because she could possibly kill him in the mean time. Others would end the fight even sooner. 

When he was faced with Nagato, he was still in his prime and using poison wasn't an issue. He had traps set out and still decided to run away.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes they do and they can easily escape the range. That is precisely what KB are used for.The whole point of the IA was for Naruto use KB to access the speed, power etc of the enemy. Sasuke had no problem getting away from the range of C4, which is bigger.
> 
> Where does Naruto grab a poisoned kunai? He gets cut by Sasuke using a poisoned kunai, but his SM would be telling him the kunai is dangerous anyway.
> 
> ...


1. Reddan literally none one has ever done this in the face of similar Jutsu. And your asking me to believe it’s likely everyone does. I don’t see how you don’t realize how unfair that argument / premise is.

2. Sasuke knew he had to avoid breathing C4 in (and actually the distance he had to cover was smaller as he just flew upwards to Deidara). The issue is how is someone going to escape this AOE without taking a single breath, *when they don’t know they have to avoid breathing int he first place:
*
It took out Kankuro entire division and Kankuro is  someone actually well verser and knowledgeable when it comes to poisons

3. Yes I meant cut; as in he couldn’t tell it was poisoned and was surprised to collapse later. SM alerting you danger is a good point though, so I concede it may already him.

The problem is Naruto simply knowing the cloud is dangerous wouldn’t tell him how it’s dangerous; and for someone inexperienced and actually block headed at time like Naruto I find it hard to imagine he is avoiding taking a breath.

4. When has Byakugan seen Atoms? And seeing something and recognizing it are too different things. Neji and Hinata are not poison experts trained to recognize poison Atoms; chances are they wouldnt know what they are seeing

5. No I’m not going to bet that; you need a sample to make yourself resistant and Hanzo poisoned are incredibly rare; actually only Hanzo has access to the black salamander venom as the black salamander are now extinct

6. So she kills Hanzo and dies of the poison; that’s a draw

7. Its implied he wasn’t in his prime anymore as he had already lost his Will of Fire and resorted to shadowy tactics. Hanzo has already become a coward at that point that didn’t want to take risks, so when faced with an unknown Rinnegan ability he ran instead of fight Nagato head on; fits even if he may have been able to win had his risked his life to continue the fight.

We also don’t know Nagato knowledge on Hanzo; he was in a real solid position to know about Hanzo poisons.

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## Isaiah13000 (Oct 20, 2019)

High kage level in his prime with his conviction, capable of defeating even Pain per his own mouth. In old age without his conviction he drops substantially to a level in which Mifune can defeat him. So most likely low Kage at that point.

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## J★J♥ (Oct 20, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> High kage level in his prime with his conviction, capable of defeating even Pain per his own mouth. In old age without his conviction he drops substantially to a level in which Mifune can defeat him. So most likely low Kage at that point.


I agree, but Mifune did not beat him. He overpowered edo tensei with sheer willpower and stabbed himself to give them time to seal him.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> The Sannin were very likely ‘Top Jonin’, considering their moniker Hanzo gave them is based on their Summonings, which means they likely had their Boss Summons at the time, which is already enough to put them each at the very Top of Jonin level, if not Kage. We also have to remember that Jiraiya said Nagato knew a lot of his Jutsu, meaning he had many of his Base Jutsu masters when he faced Hanzo. So again this would put them very close to ‘Low Kage’; and they probably were pretty much close to their Base Power without Yamaha, Byakugou, and SM; which I’d say makes them Low-Kage.
> 
> Almost no Mid-Kage is betting 3 Low-Kage with top notch team work, let alone seemingly with very little difficulty. For example even if you put BoS Sasuke without CS, WA Sakura without Byakugo, and IA Naruto on the same team; they are going to beat every Mid-Kage. Even some high Kage may loose to them that’s how tough that team is. Hanzo low diffed
> 
> ...



We saw Base Jiraiya one shot Konan/Kisame both top jounin 

Itachi while holding back took on multiple top jounin from the leaf village 

Bee in “Base” took on Sasuke and Taka 


Gengetsu took on multiple Kages and an entire division

Team 7 at the beginning of Shippuden no KN3-4 for Naruto could lose to multiple mid-high Kage especially due to their lack of in world knowledge and experience 

Ei(3/4)
Hiruzen 
Onoki 
Gaara(WA) 

All could beat them now if you give them Hebi or FRS then yeah but then they wouldn’t just be top jounin they would all be Kage level and then yet struggle with a High Kage like Nagato , Minato , KCM Naruto ect.


We saw Hanzo close to his prime , did not want to engage Nagato and his crew directly and had to align with Danzo just to face them


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## J★J♥ (Oct 20, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> We saw Base Jiraiya one shot Konan/Kisame both top jounin
> 
> Itachi while holding back took on multiple top jounin from the leaf village
> 
> ...


Did you miss the part where Hanzo lost his will and became paranoid loon locking himself in a room with bodyguards ?


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 20, 2019)

J★J♥ said:


> Did you miss the part where Hanzo lost his will and became paranoid loon locking himself in a room with bodyguards ?



This was before that I’m talking about when Yahiko was still alive


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## J★J♥ (Oct 20, 2019)

Eliyua23 said:


> This was before that I’m talking about when Yahiko was still alive


He was already a coward back then.


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Reddan literally none one has ever done this in the face of similar Jutsu. And your asking me to believe it’s likely everyone does. I don’t see how you don’t realize how unfair that argument / premise is.


Kakashi does it all the time.




He even says he is using it to discover his technique. It is not about avoiding a poisonous cloud it is just standard ninja technique, to use a clone to analyse your opponent, whilst the real body hides.


> 2. Sasuke knew he had to avoid breathing C4 in (and actually the distance he had to cover was smaller as he just flew upwards to Deidara). The issue is how is someone going to escape this AOE without taking a single breath, *when they don’t know they have to avoid breathing int he first place:
> *


Sasuke did not know he had to avoid breating in C4. He just saw the chakra coloured cloud and thought it was bad to be in the vicinity. So he ran away.

As you can see in the bottom right panel, the C4 cloud is huge and bigger than the gas. Sasuke avoids it easily.


Not to mention any ninja with Sasuke speed can move this fast.

Sasuke was outrunning C2 explosions this big.


So any ninja with speed above Sasuke is going to outrun the cloud with ease.

Doton users will go into the ground.


> It took out Kankuro entire division and Kankuro is  someone actually well verser and knowledgeable when it comes to poisons


It just shows how slow they are. The gas is obvious to see and anyone with Sasuke speed would outrun it.


> 3. Yes I meant cut; as in he couldn’t tell it was poisoned and was surprised to collapse later. SM alerting you danger is a good point though, so I concede it may already him.
> 
> The problem is Naruto simply knowing the cloud is dangerous wouldn’t tell him how it’s dangerous; and for someone inexperienced and actually block headed at time like Naruto I find it hard to imagine he is avoiding taking a breath.


Yes Naruto and Sasuke can be stupid sometimes. Not so much Ma and Pa, Kabuto or Hashirama (not that Hashirama even counts).

The likes of Gaara, Onoki, Sasuke, Muu and Deidara can take to the skies.


> 4. When has Byakugan seen Atoms? And seeing something and recognizing it are too different things. Neji and Hinata are not poison experts trained to recognize poison Atoms; chances are they wouldnt know what they are seeing


The sharingan didn't see atoms, but it saw microscopic bombs. Not just the gas, but Sasuke peered into his body and saw the bombs. If the sharingan can do that then the Byakugan can do more.

Neji studies hard and knows a lot, but I expect Hiashi to be aware of it.


> 5. No I’m not going to bet that; you need a sample to make yourself resistant and Hanzo poisoned are incredibly rare; actually only Hanzo has access to the black salamander venom as the black salamander are now extinct


Orochimaru has encountered the poison. If Chiyo knows the antidote then so would Orochimaru.


> 6. So she kills Hanzo and dies of the poison; that’s a draw


No, because she is a genius and can come up with an antidote before she dies, just like she did against Chiyo.


> 7. Its implied he wasn’t in his prime anymore as he had already lost his Will of Fire and resorted to shadowy tactics. Hanzo has already become a coward at that point that didn’t want to take risks, so when faced with an unknown Rinnegan ability he ran instead of fight Nagato head on; fits even if he may have been able to win had his risked his life to continue the fight.
> 
> We also don’t know Nagato knowledge on Hanzo; he was in a real solid position to know about Hanzo poisons.


As shown there are many ways to counter it. The salamander also takes 5 minutes to prepare his poison.

That said I rate Hanzo highly. I put him on the same tier as the White Fang. I put him in the same tier as Onoki and Tsunade (combat wise). Below the Orochimaru/Jiraya/Old Hiruzen, but above the likes of Muu and Gengetsu.[/QUOTE]


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Kakashi does it all the time.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
1. Not the same type of Jutsu

2. Sasuke later explains he could see the C4 explosives; and no that radius is around the size of a few trees; and Sasuke didn’t even fly through it horizantly he flew through it vertically; Ibusei breath is much more massive:

3. They didn’t know it was poisonous till after they breathed it in

4. Okay so you’ve outlined 3 people that might be able to deal with Ibusei Gas; not even Hanzo poison breath if they are in Sage Mode, which is unlikely as Poison Gas was Hanzo opening move and Sage Mode takes time 


5. Flight again only works if the person knows the Gas is poisonous and to escape 

6. Micro Bombs are not at all the same as recognizing poison atoms 

7. Chiyo only had the antidote to Ibusei; not hanzo 

8. Takes 5min to use it again not to use it the first time 

9. He’s definitely above all of them except maybe Mu lol


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## FlamingRain (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He didn’t believe the fodder that Pain solo’d Hanzo thats why; and likely assumed the other Akatsuki members helped Pain. Kishimoto not going to show us Hanzo easily soloing the Sannin with Jiraiya jerking him off in strength if he wants us to believe Hanzo is weaker then a Single Sannin.



We had this conversation before and I've thought about it since, but I still don't believe in your literal interpretation of the word Jiraiya used to describe the news, so I'm just going to disagree and leave it at that just like I would a literal interpretation of Tsunade being unmatched or Minato (who called Jiraiya the finest he knew when noting his true skill) being unparalleled. Soloing the pre-Sannin that many years ago may as well be irrelevant because as I noted earlier Kakashi and Gai made the biggest jumps of their lives within a mere 2-3 years. Funnily enough they were around the pre-Sannin's age if not older (cuz timeline contradictions) when we met them. It literally doesn't matter for anything more than Jiraiya's grasp of Hanzo's apparent level, which we know to be impressive _only through the fact that Jiraiya knew a good bit about the Akatsuki_ before he learned that Hanzo had been beaten by one of them.


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. Not the same type of Jutsu


The point is, it does not matter what type of jutsu. Smart ninjas often switch out with clones, to gain knowledge on their opponents techiques. Kakashi does this against every unknown strong opponent. So he would do this against Hanzo.


> 2. Sasuke later explains he could see the C4 explosives; and no that radius is around the size of a few trees; and Sasuke didn’t even fly through it horizantly he flew through it vertically; Ibusei breath is much more massive:


No Sasuke could see a cloud. He couldn't tell how they worked, he just knew to avoid the enemies cloud. We can argue about the size, but considering the size of C4, the volume C4 occupies looks vast.


> 3. They didn’t know it was poisonous till after they breathed it in


Says more about them. An enemy summon breathes out a gas, you should try and avoid it. Smarter, faster ninjas would.


> 4. Okay so you’ve outlined 3 people that might be able to deal with Ibusei Gas; not even Hanzo poison breath if they are in Sage Mode, which is unlikely as Poison Gas was Hanzo opening move and Sage Mode takes time


It takes 5 minutes for Ibusei gas. I gave many other ways too. Speed demons are just going to try and blitz. 


> 5. Flight again only works if the person knows the Gas is poisonous and to escape


Again ninjas tend to know things are dangerous and avoid when they can. This is a gas, which they can clearly see and know it is not good.


> 6. Micro Bombs are not at all the same as recognizing poison atoms


True, but the sharingan is not the Byakugan either, which is far better at such things. 


> 7. Chiyo only had the antidote to Ibusei; not hanzo


She might have had both, but she survived fighting him several times.


> 8. Takes 5min to use it again not to use it the first time


That's not stated. It just says it takes 5 minutes to use, but I have only seen the scan version. I will check the volume.


> 9. He’s definitely above all of them except maybe Mu lol


You massively overrated Muu and this makes no sense. Muu=Gengetsu.
Old Hiruzen> Onoki. 
A manga fact, which is supported.
Jiraiya and Orochimar>Old Hiruzen>Onoki

Quite clear statements and supported by the manga.

As for Sandaime Raikage not quite direct statements, but indirect statements have him as greater than Muu and Gengetsu.

Jiraiya went to fight someone, who killed Hanzo, thinking he could win.

Don't give me the nonsense about Jiraiya did not believe the fodder. I posted his facial reactions, the sweat pouring down his face and for the first time he actually sent the key frog to Naruto. Jiraiya knew this was a battle he might die in.


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It’s not purple in the manga


???

Yes, in the manga it's black and white, because manga doesn't have color. Doesn't mean that we suppost to interprate Naruto's world as black and white.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> ???
> 
> Yes, in the manga it's black and white, because manga doesn't have color. Doesn't mean that we suppost to interprate Naruto's world as black and white.


No in the manga Shizune Gas is clearly shaded dark while Ibusei isn’t:


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> We had this conversation before and I've thought about it since, but I still don't believe in your literal interpretation of the word Jiraiya used to describe the news, so I'm just going to disagree and leave it at that just like I would a literal interpretation of Tsunade being unmatched or Minato (who called Jiraiya the finest he knew when noting his true skill) being unparalleled. Soloing the pre-Sannin that many years ago may as well be irrelevant because as I noted earlier Kakashi and Gai made the biggest jumps of their lives within a mere 2-3 years. Funnily enough they were around the pre-Sannin's age if not older (cuz timeline contradictions) when we met them. It literally doesn't matter for anything more than Jiraiya's grasp of Hanzo's apparent level, which we know to be impressive _only through the fact that Jiraiya knew a good bit about the Akatsuki_ before he learned that Hanzo had been beaten by one of them.


You can disagree if you want but it goes far against the authors, Jiraiya wouldn’t think back on Hanzo demolishing the Sannin it was an irrelevant feat to how unbelievable he thinks it is that Hanzo could be defeated; he clearly still sees that as a major feat despite becoming stronger since then. Also it would be strange story wise that he’d find it unbelievable that Hanzo could be beaten by Akatuski Leader if he was weaker then Orochimaru.

If your only counter to all this is Jiraiya still went to face Pain; well that’s simply not a good one as Jiraiya could have figured Pain didn’t solo Hanzo, regardless of if you take a literally interpretation of Jiraiya words or not


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No in the manga Shizune Gas is clearly shaded dark while Ibusei isn’t:


Either way, the poison cloud is visible to the naked eye. Purple, green, yellow doesn't matter.


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## Ejenku (Oct 20, 2019)

To me  Hanzo was on par with Hurizen in his prime.  In his weakened state he probably was also around old Hurizen level.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 20, 2019)

J★J♥ said:


> He was already a coward back then.



Actually the cowardice came after that fight


J★J♥ said:


> He was already a coward back then.



Proof?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You can disagree if you want but it goes far against the authors



I mean...I obviously don't think it does, hence the disagreement.

If I'm not saying anything convincing for you either then it just is what it is.



> Jiraiya wouldn’t think back on Hanzo demolishing the Sannin it was an irrelevant feat to how unbelievable he thinks it is that Hanzo could be defeated; he clearly still sees that as a major feat despite becoming stronger since then.



Like I said the most it's useful for is giving us a good reason to trust Jiraiya's expectation that he shouldn't have been taken out by a single Akatsuki member based on the feats he was aware of by that point. It doesn't tell us much otherwise as we don't have any idea how strong the Sannin striplings were compared to their contemporary selves, just that they were generically considered strong.

Influence within an organization doesn't rely solely on battle power even if that often has something to do with it. Jiraiya was aware that Orochimaru only joined the organization instead of starting it himself. If Jiraiya was ever fairly confident beforehand and also considered Orochimaru very close to himself in strength then it's not strange.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> The point is, it does not matter what type of jutsu. Smart ninjas often switch out with clones, to gain knowledge on their opponents techiques. Kakashi does this against every unknown strong opponent. So he would do this against Hanzo.
> 
> No Sasuke could see a cloud. He couldn't tell how they worked, he just knew to avoid the enemies cloud. We can argue about the size, but considering the size of C4, the volume C4 occupies looks vast.
> 
> ...


1. Can you explain to me how switching with a clone helps against a massive AoE cloud; when the original would still be inside the cloud 

2. He literally talks about seeing the C4 mini bombs later 

3-5. Kankuro is a Jonin that was put in charge of a major squad and he specializes in poison..... and again literally no one has ever avoided these gas / smoke clouds before. Your holding the characters to a standard they don’t actually perform at in the manga. Sai has flight and didn’t immediately fly away when Zabuza cast demonic mist as another example.

Also not only do they need to escape the area but do so while also dealing with Hanzo attacks.


6. Okay proof Byakugan can see and distinguish poison atoms 

7. So Kakuzu can deal with Shin Suusenju because he surived fighting Hashirama?

8. it doesn’t need to be stated Ibusei uses his Gas immediately after Hanzo summons him; without needing 5min

9. For that to work you need to believe Old Hiruzen is still the Strongest Gokage, which I don’t agree with; and even if you did that would only make Old Hiruzen marginally better then Onoki who lost to Mu, and therefore Mu would still be better. 

I don’t know how you can think Ei3 is suppose to be above Mu and Gengetsu when they were both identified as bigger threats by the alliance 


And Jiraiya didn’t believe the Ame fodder that Pain solod Hanzo


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Either way, the poison cloud is visible to the naked eye. Purple, green, yellow doesn't matter.


Yes but there is nothing that says it’s poisonous that’s the problem


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 20, 2019)

Hanzou defeats hordes of Konoha Chuunin and Jounin, and then beats up three Low Kage-levels afterwards, and he hardly has a scratch on him. An older, more powerful Jiraiya still can't believe that Hanzou could be taken down by one opponent, even by the leader of an organisation which he knew to contain shinobi like Itachi who already rivalled him in power.

It's even said that Pein's defeat of Hanzou was a "God-like deed", inferring further how powerful Hanzou was.

Therefore I place Prime Hanzou as a top end High Kage, above the Sannin, Tobirama, probably above Itachi, and maybe even Prime Hiruzen. I'm not sure about Minato, as Jiraiya seemed to hold him in equally as high of a regard.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yes but there is nothing that says it’s poisonous that’s the problem


Not breathing a substance of unknown properties that is created by your enemy is a common sense. It's really not that hard to deduce it might be poison...

Besides, isn't Hanzo famous for using poison? His nickname is Hanzo the Salamander, because of venom sac.


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Not breathing a substance of unknown properties that is created by your enemy is a common sense. It's really not that hard to deduce it might be poison...
> 
> Besides, isn't Hanzo famous for using poison? His nickname is Hanzo the Salamander, because of venom sac.


Yeh this is hardly rocket science. 

I's a world where it is common for people to spit out fire, water, earth, lightning and wind to attack, So you don't have to be the brightest ninja to realise something your opponent spits out, is probably not good for you and should be avoided. 

I mean if I was walking in the street and saw a gas, I am going to try and avoid.


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

People puting Hanzo above Itachi, Hokages and SM Jiraya...

A guy who only showed three unimpressive jutsu....


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Not breathing a substance of unknown properties that is created by your enemy is a common sense. It's really not that hard to deduce it might be poison...
> 
> Besides, isn't Hanzo famous for using poison? His nickname is Hanzo the Salamander, because of venom sac.



I don’t recall Hanzō being globally famous for using poison - it was only his enemies that he’d fought before who knew such a thing about him. 

Of course, if a cloud of poison was shot at you, even if you didn’t know what it was, you would still jump out of the way.

The thing is that even a whiff of that cloud is fatal and not everyone will know to start holding their breath before they begin to move out of the way, or to do so when they don’t move in time at all.


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> The thing is that even a whiff of that cloud is fatal and not everyone will know to start holding their breath before they begin to move out of the way, or to do so when they don’t move in time at all.


Again, part 1 Kabuto didn't know Shizune is a poison user, but not only he reacted in time, but also made a counterattack.


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## J★J♥ (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> People puting Hanzo above Itachi, Hokages and SM Jiraya...
> 
> A guy who only showed three unimpressive jutsu....


Like being above itachi is achievement


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Low kage as per feats.

In his prime maybe upper mid kage based on Jiraiya’s lone statement that held him in equal standing with Tsunade and Minato in a weird “best shinobi” triangle that makes no logical sense.

From what he accomplished we can gather he probably wasn’t in equal standing with Jiraiya or Itachi, the strongest mid kage.

In my personal opinion, seeing as Hanzo wasn’t even aware he’d lost a step against Mifune, weaker then the likes of Sasori or Mei who barely pass the mid tier. When you can’t notice a drop off of *your own *skills the drop off probably isn’t very significant, certainly not two tiers worth as some posters have inexplicably claimed.

Putting him in a tier with Danzo, Onoki, and Killer Bee as the below average high kage, let alone the likes of Minato, EMS Sasuke and Obito as the upper end is a ridiculous conclusion. He belongs no where near any of these ninja in any debate regarding combat capability.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Again, part 1 Kabuto didn't know Shizune is a poison user, but not only he reacted in time, but also made a counterattack.



Yes he did, he saw poison laced onto her needles in their first encounter.

He’s also highly intelligent and a medical ninja so he probably recognised Dokugiri anyway (which according to the databook requires medical knowledge to use).


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## Cichy (Oct 20, 2019)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Yes he did, he saw poison laced onto her needles in their first encounter.
> 
> He’s also highly intelligent and a medical ninja so he probably recognised Dokugiri anyway (which according to the databook requires medical knowledge to use).


Eh, someone using poisoned needles doesn't automatically mean they can use poisoned gas jutsu. Kabuto at this point was apparently high jonin level. The gap between him and the high kages should be enormous. 

It's really ludicrous to say that guys like Tobirama or Itachi won't realize whats going on immidiately, given their reaction speed. Apparently even Chiyo could survive multiple fights with Hanzo.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Eh, someone using poisoned needles doesn't automatically mean they can use poisoned gas jutsu. Kabuto at this point was apparently high jonin level. The gap between him and the high kages should be enormous.
> 
> It's really ludicrous to say that guys like Tobirama or Itachi won't realize whats going on immidiately, given their reaction speed. Apparently even Chiyo could survive multiple fights with Hanzo.



Sure, but I dunno why you’re comparing Shizune to Hanzō.

The AOE of his poison cloud is way bigger, his salamander is faster than she is, and to boot Hanzō is supposed to be an incredibly skilled CQC user. He claimed that no opponent he ever went up against managed to stop his sickle and kusarigama combo. Try holding your breath and repeatedly escaping those giant poisonous blasts while trying to tango with him in CQC.

Mifune is fast, but Hanzō used to be faster. In bodies of water, his speed was apparently unsurpassed too.

Admittedly we never saw enough from Hanzō to be sure of his jutsu capabilities, but his hype is enough for me.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Cichy said:


> Not breathing a substance of unknown properties that is created by your enemy is a common sense. It's really not that hard to deduce it might be poison...
> 
> Besides, isn't Hanzo famous for using poison? His nickname is Hanzo the Salamander, because of venom sac.


Is it? Because we’ve seen Zabuza use Demonic Mist a Number or times and no one bothered to avoid breathing it in. Same with Mei’s Mists. Likewise when Shima used her dust cloud. Sakura a skilled medic needed to be warned by Chiyo to not breath In Sasori poison gas. No one went out of their way to avoid breathing in Gengetsu Clam Mist. And Kankuro someone who works with poisons didn’t do anything or command his Squad to avoid the poison gas


Apparently not as Chiyo or Hanzo had to explain to every enemy he faced his different poisons.


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> IMLike I said the most it's useful for is giving us a good reason to trust Jiraiya's expectation that he shouldn't have been taken out by a single Akatsuki member based on the feats he was aware of by that point. It doesn't tell us much otherwise as we don't have any idea how strong the Sannin striplings were compared to their contemporary selves, just that they were generically considered strong.
> 
> Influence within an organization doesn't rely solely on battle power even if that often has something to do with it. Jiraiya was aware that Orochimaru only joined the organization instead of starting it himself. If Jiraiya was ever fairly confident beforehand and also considered Orochimaru very close to himself in strength then it's not strange.


It doesn’t matter even if he thought the leader was only as strong as Orochimaru; it would still place Hanzo above the Sannin, as he didn’t think an Orochimaru level enemy could win. Unless your saying her believed everyone in Akatsuki was weaker then Orochimaru substantially; it doesn’t make sense.

And if your saying you truly believe Jiraiya after spying on the organization and seeing Itachi powers first hand thought no one there was even close to Orochimaru in power that’s a huge reach on your behalf. 

Besides Jiraiya statements how do you take Data-book statements that cite him as unrivaled during his hey day


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Low kage as per feats.
> 
> In his prime maybe upper mid kage based on Jiraiya’s lone statement that held him in equal standing with Tsunade and Minato in a weird “best shinobi” triangle that makes no logical sense.
> 
> ...


So in your opinion Uchiha Shin is around Naruto level?


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## FlamingRain (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> It doesn’t matter even if he thought the leader was only as strong as Orochimaru; it would still place Hanzo above the Sannin, as he didn’t think an Orochimaru level enemy could win. Unless your saying her believed everyone in Akatsuki was weaker then Orochimaru substantially; it doesn’t make sense.
> 
> And if your saying you truly believe Jiraiya after spying on the organization and seeing Itachi powers first hand thought no one there was even close to Orochimaru in power that’s a huge reach on your behalf.



I don't see why not. Most of the members _aren't_ close to Orochimaru. Itachi is stronger, but they didn't have enough intel to conclude that at that point. Kakashi knew just as much about Itachi's abilities as Jiraiya did if not more and still thought Jiraiya's presence was enough to deter Itachi and Kisame from going after Naruto, after all.



> Besides Jiraiya statements how do you take Data-book statements that cite him as unrivaled during his hey day



Same way I take the databook statements citing Tsunade as unstoppable and Hebi Sasuke as someone nobody stands a chance of living against.

The message is just that they're incredibly, one might even say "unbelievably", strong.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> High kage level in his prime with his conviction, capable of defeating even Pain per his own mouth. In old age without his conviction he drops substantially to a level in which Mifune can defeat him. So most likely low Kage at that point.



This. At least near top of High Kage tier


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> This. At least near top of High Kage tier


What? Who do you have in your tier?


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> What? Who do you have in your tier?



Itachi Jiraiya Onoki Mu A3 Gengetsu Orochimaru Tsunade PA SM Naruto MS Sasuke Danzo Base WA Kabuto


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Itachi Jiraiya Onoki Mu A3 Gengetsu Orochimaru Tsunade PA SM Naruto MS Sasuke Danzo Base WA Kabuto


Ok, so those are basically higher end mid kage tiers that you’ve split into a different tier from the others.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ok, so those are basically mid kage tiers that you’ve split into a different tier from the others.



No? It's what I consider high kage tiers.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> No? It's what I consider high kage tiers.


Where’s Minato, Obito, Tobirama and Killer Bee?

Did you create a tier above high kage for them?


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Where’s Minato, Obito, Tobirama and Killer Bee?
> 
> Did you create a tier above high kage for them?



Yes I do. 

Tier directly above include Pain, Minato,  Tobirama,  Bee, KCM Naruto,  Kabuto fight Sasuke,  Edo Itachi


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Yes I do.
> 
> Tier directly above include Pain, Minato,  Tobirama,  Bee, KCM Naruto,  Kabuto fight Sasuke,  Edo Itachi


Ok so it’s just a matter of different tier organization. I have most of those guys in my high kage tier you’re just a tier level more then me


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ok so it’s just a matter of different tier organization. I have most of those guys in my high kage tier you’re just a tier level more then me



Then who are your low kage


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see why not. Most of the members _aren't_ close to Orochimaru. Itachi is stronger, but they didn't have enough intel to conclude that at that point. Kakashi knew just as much about Itachi's abilities as Jiraiya did if not more and still thought Jiraiya's presence was enough to deter Itachi and Kisame from going after Naruto, after all.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Your right that not many were on that ‘level’, so I’ll concede that point.

But let me put it to you another way Orochimaru was in Akatsuki; so why would Jiraiya be so shocked at the possibility that someone is close to Orochimaru ‘level’ among them. Jiraiya also said it was unbelievable that anyone could beat Hanzo, not just Akatsuki. Since he knows Orochimaru was still around when Hanzo was killed he must be including Orochimaru in that assessment, even if you want to say he’s excluding himself as obviously he knows he didn’t kill Hanzo and characters that were dead at the time Hanzo was defeated. So at a base-line I really can’t see how Jiraiya statements make sense, if Orochimaru or someone close to that ‘level’ was above Hanzo.

That’s fair on the second point I just want to judge how you take the Databook

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Then who are your low kage


Ninja like Darui, Chiyo, Mifune, Hidan, Konan, Hanzo, Kitsuchi

Those I imagine would be in there as well are also several of the living Jins and previous kage we didn’t know much about 

Didn’t bother addressing different versions of Naruto/Sasuke there’s too many


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ninja like Darui, Chiyo, Mifune, Hidan, Konan, Hanzo, Kitsuchi



How does that work? 

*ignoring the fact that you place Hanzo there based on nothing 

Where's Sasori, Kisame, Deidara,  Hebi Sasuke, Kakuzu, WA Kakashi etc


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> How does that work?
> 
> *ignoring the fact that you place Hanzo there based on nothing
> 
> Where's Sasori, Kisame, Deidara,  Hebi Sasuke, Kakuzu, WA Kakashi etc


Mid kage where they belong

Mifune killed Hanzo in open combat and Hanzo has 2 jutsu we’re aware of and a third that he couldn’t even get off on Mifune that’s why he’s a low kage


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Mid kage where they belong
> 
> Mifune killed Hanzo in open combat and Hanzo has 2 jutsu we’re aware of and a third that he couldn’t even get off on Mifune



So you are basing his placement off his absolute worst showing? Refusing to factor in the repeated notion that he had grown weak from his loss of conviction? And not taking into consideration statements from Jiraiya and Pain? 

Ok. 

You said my High Kage tier characters were all mid kage tiers. So you think Mu, A3 belong in the same tier group as Hebi Sasuke and Kisame?


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> So you are basing his placement off his absolute worst showing? Refusing to factor in the repeated notion that he had grown weak from his loss of conviction? And not taking into consideration statements from Jiraiya and Pain?
> 
> Ok.
> 
> You said my High Kage tier characters were all mid kage tiers. So you think Mu, A3 belong in the same tier group as Hebi Sasuke and Kisame?


He has one on panel fight where he was cut in half by Mifune.

His two off panel fights consist of beating a Jounin group of Sannin and getting stomped by Pain in Amekagure (CT/CST restrict) without injuring a single path.

Yes I do, because they don’t belong in a tier with Killer Bee or Nagato.

There’s no need to construct another tier to separate average kage levels.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> He has one on panel fight where he was cut in half by Mifune.
> 
> His two off panel fights consist of beating a Jounin group of Sannin and getting stomped by Pain without injuring a single path.



Ok, so Loss of Conviction Hanzo is Low Kage. I agree. 

While his prime self is clearly above that.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Ok, so Loss of Conviction Hanzo is Low Kage. I agree.
> 
> While his prime self is clearly above that.


Sure, prime is low mid kage at my estimation (Sasori, Mu, Rasa), higher mid kage at most extreme, which is where you have him (near Itachi and Jiraiya).

Can’t debate with a fanfic version though, all you’re going on is here say and that’s not proof enough to come to a conclusion logically. No reason to have a debate that can’t be settled.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sure, low mid kage at my estimation (Sasori, Mu, Rasa), higher mid kage at most extreme, which is where you have him (near Itachi and Jiraiya).
> 
> Can’t debate with a fanfic version though, all you’re going on is here say and that’s not proof enough to come to a conclusion logically.



Your tier groups need some re-adjustment 

How can you possibly have someone like A3 and Hebi Sasuke in the same tier. Or Itachi and WA Kakashi in the same tier.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Your tier groups need some re-adjustment
> 
> How can you possibly have someone like A3 and Hebi Sasuke in the same tier. Or Itachi and WA Kakashi in the same tier.


Because none belong in a tier with Killer Bee or Minato and none are powerful enough to be held at a tier higher than kage.

Killer Bee and Minato aren’t above the realm of ninja, they’re not close to Demi gods or Gods, they don’t need to be in a tier outside of ninja rankings.

My next tier is Low God level, then Demi God, and then God level.

Nagato bridges that gap as a near referenced god among shinobi. Hashirama is the average low god as a confirmed god of shinobi.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Because none belong in a tier with Killer Bee or Minato and none are powerful enough to be held at a tier higher than kage.
> 
> Killer Bee and Minato aren’t above the realm of ninja, they’re not close to Demi gods or Gods, they don’t need to be in a tier outside of ninja rankings.
> 
> My next tier is Low God level, then Demi God, and then God level.



Nah.

You just have a ginormous mid kage tier and small low kage and small high kage groups 

Needs readjusting, and is exactly why I have my tiers set up the way I do


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Nah.
> 
> You just have a ginormous mid kage tier and small low kage and small high kage groups
> 
> Needs readjusting, and is exactly why I have my tiers set up the way I do


No, you added nonsensical non-ninja ranks to separate the ninja and avoid large gaps of power within the ranking systems.

Tiers like “transcendent” and “top tier” are folly fanfic tiers that don’t follow the power rankings of the manga.

Minato and Killer Bee are not above the ninja class. They are irrelevant outside of the system of ninja and don’t belong in tiers beyond the highest ninja rank - Kage.


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your right that not many were on that ‘level’, so I’ll concede that point.
> 
> But let me put it to you another way Orochimaru was in Akatsuki; so why would Jiraiya be so shocked at the possibility that someone is close to Orochimaru ‘level’ among them. Jiraiya also said it was unbelievable that anyone could beat Hanzo, not just Akatsuki. Since he knows Orochimaru was still around when Hanzo was killed he must be including Orochimaru in that assessment, even if you want to say he’s excluding himself as obviously he knows he didn’t kill Hanzo and characters that were dead at the time Hanzo was defeated. So at a base-line I really can’t see how Jiraiya statements make sense, if Orochimaru or someone close to that ‘level’ was above Hanzo.
> 
> That’s fair on the second point I just want to judge how you take the Databook


Yes Jiraiya would be shocked that someone was close to Orochimaru's level. He and Kakashi did not consider Itachi close to Orochimaru's level. This is clear from Kakashi being willing to fight Itachi, but petrified at the thought of facing Orochimaru. Kakashi also seems to think a Sanni (Jiraiya) can keep Naruto safe from Itachi.

When they discuss Orochimaru's death Jiraiya cannot believe it either.

*Fact is stranger than Fiction eh. I never imagined he would die.
*
I personally think Nagato and Itachi were both stronger than the leader Obito, so couldn't Orochimaru be stronger? Orochimaru left Akatsuki, they want him dead and have done nothing about it.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No, you added nonsensical non-ninja ranks to separate the ninja and avoid large gaps of power within the ranking systems.
> 
> Tiers like “transcendent” and “top tier” are folly fanfic tiers that don’t follow the power rankings of the manga.



Lol All tiers are "fanfic" genius 

The whole point of tier separation is to avoid having large power gaps between characters in the same section


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Lol All tiers are "fanfic" genius
> 
> The whole point of tier separation is to avoid having large power gaps between characters in the same section


No they’re not. You’re suppose to use the ranking system given to you by the manga.

When a ninja becomes so much more powerful then the other ninja he’s no longer just a ninja, he’s a god among ninja, a reference given to the reader through Nagato and later confirmed through Hashirama and by extension Madara who was confirmed only stoppable by a god of shinobi, even prior to PS requiring the Gokage as a seemingly equatable challenge, which was a joke of a fight for Madara.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your right that not many were on that ‘level’, so I’ll concede that point.
> 
> But let me put it to you another way Orochimaru was in Akatsuki; so why would Jiraiya be so shocked at the possibility that someone is close to Orochimaru ‘level’ among them. Jiraiya also said it was unbelievable that anyone could beat Hanzo, not just Akatsuki. Since he knows Orochimaru was still around when Hanzo was killed he must be including Orochimaru in that assessment, even if you want to say he’s excluding himself as obviously he knows he didn’t kill Hanzo and characters that were dead at the time Hanzo was defeated. So at a base-line I really can’t see how Jiraiya statements make sense, if Orochimaru or someone close to that ‘level’ was above Hanzo.
> 
> That’s fair on the second point I just want to judge how you take the Databook



Jiraiya had already learned though his network that Orochimaru had been "killed" trying to take Sasuke's body. He had also started researching Fushi Tensei after finding out Orochimaru had another body in part 1, so combining that with the state Jman last saw Oro in during part 1 it's possible he wouldn't have thought his old rival was in good condition at that point _anyway_, even if normally he would have considered him someone capable of defeating Hanzo.

There is the question of "why" too. Ame wasn't a target for Orochimaru and Hanzo doesn't seem like the type to get involved unless his village ends up in harm's way. That's another reason he could let the soon-to-be-Sannin go. He wasn't looking for Konoha's defeat, just the safety of his own village.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> No they’re not. You’re suppose to use the ranking system given to you by the manga.



Ok quote the manga or the databook books that state that the way you set up your tier structure is right while mine is wrong lol





DaVizWiz said:


> When a ninja becomes so much more powerful then the other ninja he’s no longer just a ninja, he’s a god among ninja, a reference given to the reader through Nagato and later confirmed through Hashirama and by extension Madara who was confirmed only beatable by a god of shinobi.



..ok? 

What's that have to do with what I said.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Ok quote the manga or the databook books that state that the way you set up your tier structure is right while mine is wrong lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You’re using tiers that don’t exist in the manga lol

What are your tiers above kage called? Something you pulled out of your ass or copied from someone on here?

There is no tier above kage other than being a god among shinobi as Hashirama dictates through his very name and Madara proves by toying with the pinnacle of ninja (Gokage) while being a shit copy of himself.


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> You’re using tiers that don’t exist in the manga lol



What chapters are your tier structure cited in the manga though? Lol where in the manga is someone stated to be on the "demi God" tier lmao 



DaVizWiz said:


> What are your tiers above kage called? Something you pulled out of your ass or copied from someone on here?



Literally why are you asking me this when you are acting as if your structure come straight from the manga when they are not and you are refusing to provide evidence or reason for lmao



DaVizWiz said:


> There is no tier above kage other than being a god among shinobi as Hashirama dictates through his very name and Madara proves by toying with the pinnacle of ninja (Gokage) while being a shit copy of himself.



So I'm guessing you then have Kaguya and BM Naruto in the same tier as well


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya had already learned though his network that Orochimaru had been "killed" trying to take Sasuke's body. He had also started researching Fushi Tensei after finding out Orochimaru had another body in part 1, so combining that with the state Jman last saw Oro in during part 1 it's possible he wouldn't have thought his old rival was in good condition at that point _anyway_, even if normally he would have considered him someone capable of defeating Hanzo.
> 
> There is the question of "why" too. Ame wasn't a target for Orochimaru and Hanzo doesn't seem like the type to get involved unless his village ends up in harm's way. That's another reason he could let the soon-to-be-Sannin go. He wasn't looking for Konoha's defeat, just the safety of his own village.


Hanzo was taken out before then, so that doesn’t really apply. 

Orochimaru was part of Akatsuki and Akatsuki took over rain; that seems like a good reason why


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Yes Jiraiya would be shocked that someone was close to Orochimaru's level. He and Kakashi did not consider Itachi close to Orochimaru's level. This is clear from Kakashi being willing to fight Itachi, but petrified at the thought of facing Orochimaru. Kakashi also seems to think a Sanni (Jiraiya) can keep Naruto safe from Itachi.
> 
> When they discuss Orochimaru's death Jiraiya cannot believe it either.
> 
> ...


Think Orochimaru is strong then leader really doesn’t matter because Jiraiya still wouldn’t be shocked someone could beat Hanzo, if he already knew someone much stronger then Hanzo in Orochimaru


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> What chapters are your tier structure cited in the manga though? Lol where in the manga is someone stated to be on the "demi God" tier lmao
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ninja are ranked by the ninja ranking system which you use 

Genin-Chunin-Jounin-Kage



What do you call your fanfic tier after kage?


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## Shazam (Oct 20, 2019)

DaVizWiz said:


> Ninja are ranked by the ninja ranking system which you use
> 
> Genin-Chunin-Jounin-Kage
> 
> ...



Characters that doesnt fit in the kage ranking in a conventional sense. Certain characters like Hashirama and Madara were thought to be stuff of myths and legends. And so to represent groups of characters who are all near in power you need multiple tier settings or else you could have BM Naruto grouped with Kaguya, or potentially even worse.


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## Reddan (Oct 20, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Think Orochimaru is strong then leader really doesn’t matter because Jiraiya still wouldn’t be shocked someone could beat Hanzo, if he already knew someone much stronger then Hanzo in Orochimaru


You added a MUCH, which I never said. I think the Sannin are a tier above Hanzo. For me you are a tier above when you would beat that person and people on that level virtually every time, unless there is a match up issue.

Jiraiya knows Orochimaru did not kill Hanzo. Shortly before he goes to the rain village, Tsunade mentions how Jiraiya's penance for not being able to stop Orochimaru is to always keep tabs on him. So Jiraiya, knows it was not Orochimaru and it was not Tsunade. 

So depending on how much Jiraiya knows about Bee, it is unimaginable there would be a ninja at Onoki's level or stronger.

In my personal opinion ignoring 'myths' from over a thousand years ago under 10 ninjas have been stronger than Hanzo.


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## Phenomenon (Oct 20, 2019)

Upper Mid Kage, I don't buy into his hype that much considering his portrayal.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 20, 2019)

Shazam said:


> Characters that doesnt fit in the kage ranking in a conventional sense. Certain characters like Hashirama and Madara were thought to be stuff of myths and legends. And so to represent groups of characters who are all near in power you need multiple tier settings or else you could have BM Naruto grouped with Kaguya, or potentially even worse.


Just split up the god tier like you do the kage tier 

BM Naruto should be in the low god tier, Kaguya should be in the highest god tier


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## Turrin (Oct 20, 2019)

Reddan said:


> You added a MUCH, which I never said. I think the Sannin are a tier above Hanzo. For me you are a tier above when you would beat that person and people on that level virtually every time, unless there is a match up issue.
> 
> Jiraiya knows Orochimaru did not kill Hanzo. Shortly before he goes to the rain village, Tsunade mentions how Jiraiya's penance for not being able to stop Orochimaru is to always keep tabs on him. So Jiraiya, knows it was not Orochimaru and it was not Tsunade.
> 
> ...


I feel like the idea that Jiraiya was aware of Orochimaru location at all times since he left the hidden leaf is pretty unfounded. So saying he would know if Orochimaru went to hidden Rain village is not a probable claim


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## Reddan (Oct 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I feel like the idea that Jiraiya was aware of Orochimaru location at all times since he left the hidden leaf is pretty unfounded. So saying he would know if Orochimaru went to hidden Rain village is not a probable claim


Well keeping tabs on him at all times was his plan. I think Jiraiya would certainly be aware if Orochimaru went to the rain to kill Hanzo.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Well keeping tabs on him at all times was his plan. I think Jiraiya would certainly be aware if Orochimaru went to the rain to kill Hanzo.


Keeping tabs on him is widely different then knowing his exact location; if he had known he would have given that location to Konoha to go after him, after he killed Hiruzen.


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## Reddan (Oct 21, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Keeping tabs on him is widely different then knowing his exact location; if he had known he would have given that location to Konoha to go after him, after he killed Hiruzen.


What is Konoha going to do? Send Jiraiya. If Jiraiya cannot stop someone then Konoha have no answer. Danzo is a coward and wouldn't leave, in addition I think he keeps his strength quiet. Either way Jiraiya knew what was going on with Orochimaru and he is the first to break the news when he dies.


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## Turrin (Oct 21, 2019)

Reddan said:


> What is Konoha going to do? Send Jiraiya. If Jiraiya cannot stop someone then Konoha have no answer. Danzo is a coward and wouldn't leave, in addition I think he keeps his strength quiet. Either way Jiraiya knew what was going on with Orochimaru and he is the first to break the news when he dies.


Send Jiraiya and some Top Jonin / Anbu should be more then enough 

Finding out someone died is different then knowing that person location at all times; where is a statement that he knew?


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