# Katakuri vs Old Rayleigh



## Gianfi (Apr 27, 2019)

Location: Sabaody Arcipelago
Reputation Knowledge
distance: 15 meters

Who wins between Katakuri and Rayleigh?


----------



## Dunno (Apr 27, 2019)

Ray takes it quite easily. Luffy beat Katakuri, but he's still far away from Rayleigh. He's only just gotten the hang of CoO, and he's still far away from mastering the other two forms of haki.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## trance (Apr 27, 2019)

ray takes it


----------



## Beast (Apr 27, 2019)

Ray-san 
High diff


----------



## Corax (Apr 28, 2019)

Ray mid diff. at worst. He has far greater armament haki (force haki,that FM Luffy can't even use atm.),has knowledge of FS (and likely has it as he intercepted Kizaru and according to DB you must have top CoO to do so).


----------



## CaptainCommander (Apr 28, 2019)

Katakuri wins mid difficulty. Silvers only advantage here is slightly better CoA which is getting blown way out of proportion. Prime-FM>Old-FMs. Not only does Katakuri have DF abilities he also has future sight and his youth going for him. a force push/shield isn't helping him against everything extra in Katakuri's arsenal.

Now if you had made this closer to the ocean and/or given Katakuri Sea-stone this might have gone differently.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MO (Apr 28, 2019)

ray very high diff. rayleight has stamina issues and kata is not someone he can just brush off, He will be hard pressed.


----------



## TheWiggian (Apr 28, 2019)

Ray high diff at most


----------



## Ruse (Apr 28, 2019)

Ray mid-high diff


----------



## Luke (Apr 28, 2019)

Ray wins, high difficulty.


----------



## Admiral Ryokugyu (Apr 30, 2019)

Rayleigh, low diff.


----------



## Nox (Apr 30, 2019)

Rayleigh, Mid-High. Kizaru and Garp vouched for his primes and present. Scaling the difficulty due to the age/stamina factor.


----------



## MO (Apr 30, 2019)

Admiral Ryokugyu said:


> Rayleigh, low diff.


----------



## Law (Apr 30, 2019)

Rayleigh at worst mid diff, if not low diff.

If Katakuri was tasked to protect Luffy from evil Ray, that would be a much closer fight. Katakuri with Plot Shield and FS would be hard to hit and put down.


----------



## Crow (May 1, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Katakuri wins mid difficulty. Silvers only advantage here is slightly better CoA which is getting blown way out of proportion. Prime-FM>Old-FMs. Not only does Katakuri have DF abilities he also has future sight and his youth going for him. a force push/shield isn't helping him against everything extra in Katakuri's arsenal.
> 
> Now if you had made this closer to the ocean and/or given Katakuri Sea-stone this might have gone differently.



Ray smokes Katakuri dude, mid diff, at least. The Dark King doesn't need Sea Stone to beat Katakuri, who his student already bested. And Ray's CoA isn't just slightly better, he has a whole other technique which is getting major hype in Wano right now that's supposed to be able to take down Kaido.  PK FM > Big Meme FM every day. We're talking about someone who helped conquer the grand line and Katakuri can't even control his mom.


----------



## CaptainCommander (May 1, 2019)

Crow said:


> Ray smokes Katakuri dude, mid diff, at least. The Dark King doesn't need Sea Stone to beat Katakuri, who his student already bested. And Ray's CoA isn't just slightly better, he has a whole other technique which is getting major hype in Wano right now that's supposed to be able to take down Kaido.  PK FM > Big Meme FM every day. We're talking about someone who helped conquer the grand line and Katakuri can't even control his mom.


----------



## Amol (May 5, 2019)

Rayleigh low diffs and I am being kind to Kata. 
He is on Admiral level. He made one bleed and via Sentomaru Oda told us that Kizaru left the fight because he knew that he can't beat Rayleigh without receiving grave injuries. 
You are smoking something really bad if you think Ray loses to Yonkou FM.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Amol (May 5, 2019)

And Rayleigh does not have stamina issues. Panting does not equal to stamina issues. I can post panels of both Luffy and Zoro panting before they beat their enemies. Rayleigh swam freaking calm belt in one go while battling numerous Sea Kings. That is monstrous stamina. 
Do you guys even swim?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Beast (May 6, 2019)

Don’t think fighting and swimming could ever be compared and beating sea kings as about as tiring as bro fisting a top tier. 
Not that Ray would lose to current Kata.


----------



## MO (May 6, 2019)

Ray is never ever low diffing a yonko FM in his current. He most likely can't midd diff a FM let alone low diff.


----------



## Nox (May 7, 2019)

The comprehension level of this fandom. Sanji can and has run *for days* on end. Yet he does and has demonstrated physical discomfort in battles that span minutes. If someone mentions post TS Sanji's endurance. Are you going to ask if they are a sprinter/runner? LOL context cues and setting is crucial when ascertaining battle situations. Rayleigh is intensely panting against an Admiral. An Admirals isn't a seaking which can be scared off with CoC or finished in one slash. Neither do they have CoA, CoO, monstrous strength, speed, stamina. etc. Stop overrating the old version of Roger's generation. All have consistently stated they aren't on that level aka Top 10. Kata is not getting Low Diffed.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## barreltheif (May 7, 2019)

Rayleigh doesn't have stamina issues. Panting once, on one panel, means very little. It's not an indication that you're losing. Zoro panted against Pica.

Rayleigh low-mid diff.


----------



## Nox (May 7, 2019)

Have an older character panting and reminiscing on the prowess of their youth. Against a character whose compatriots compete for days on end. In the same vein said old characters peers have mentioned a decline in capabilities due to combination of age/inactivity. Compare this level of exhaustion to a SH who was chasing his opponent throughout an entire territory and arc. Continue to believe said character has absolute parity with Admiral, Emperors and other Top 10. Ok then.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## barreltheif (May 7, 2019)

Astro said:


> Have an older character panting and reminiscing on the prowess of their youth. Against a character whose compatriots compete for days on end. In the same vein said old characters peers have mentioned a decline in capabilities due to combination of age/inactivity. Compare this level of exhaustion to a SH who was chasing his opponent throughout an entire territory and arc. Continue to believe said character has absolute parity with Admiral, Emperors and other Top 10. Ok then.



Yes, Zoro panted while running across a town. Rayleigh swam the calm belt.
Panting once for one panel means very, very little.


----------



## Louis-954 (May 7, 2019)

Rayleigh wins, but it sure as shit won't be easy for him at this point in his life.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 7, 2019)

If yonko and admirals are compareable, then Rayleigh should shit all over Katakuri, seeing what happened to Luffy against Kaido and how Rayleigh was able to put up a fight against Kizaru.

Mid diff max for Rayleigh.


----------



## CaptainCommander (May 7, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> *If yonko and admirals are compareable*, then Rayleigh should shit all over Katakuri, seeing what happened to Luffy against Kaido and how Rayleigh was able to put up a fight against Kizaru.
> 
> Mid diff max for Rayleigh.



Clearly they're not as you said a first mate can put up a fight against Kizaru and a healthy Yonko can one-shot a FM.

[HASHTAG]#bringonthenegrep[/HASHTAG]
[HASHTAG]#truthhurts[/HASHTAG]


----------



## Beast (May 7, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> [HASHTAG]#bringonthenegrep[/HASHTAG]


Ask and you shall receive!


----------



## barreltheif (May 7, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Clearly they're not as you said a first mate can put up a fight against Kizaru and a healthy Yonko can one-shot a FM.



I doubt a yonkou FM can put up much of a fight against Kizaru or Rayleigh.


----------



## Conxc (May 7, 2019)

I’m sure Prime Ray was an absolute monster, but I never saw the hype in Old Ray, at least not to these standards. The best thing he’s done is hold off Kizaru. This was also done by the likes of Marco and Jozu, but somehow we know better than to give either of those guys the nod automatically, let alone claim anything less than a high-diff fight. So what if Ray has the “advanced CoA?” So does Sentomaru. Doesn’t make him stronger than or even close to FM level. 

I got Katakuri high-diff. I don’t think ray has the stamina for fight Kata in a drawn out battle.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 7, 2019)

Conxc said:


> I’m sure Prime Ray was an absolute monster, but I never saw the hype in Old Ray, at least not to these standards. The best thing he’s done is hold off Kizaru. This was also done by the likes of Marco and Jozu, but somehow we know better than to give either of those guys the nod automatically, let alone claim anything less than a high-diff fight. So what if Ray has the “advanced CoA?” So does Sentomaru. Doesn’t make him stronger than or even close to FM level.
> 
> I got Katakuri high-diff. I don’t think ray has the stamina for fight Kata in a drawn out battle.



Kizaru didn't apprehend Old Rayleigh after their fight, most likely because he could not easily do so. Did Marco and Jozu hold off anyone? The admirals p much had their hands free right after every encounter with them. Akainu literally pushed past Marco, even though Marco has one of the most useful fruits when it comes to fighting top tiers, which Kat does not possess.


----------



## Conxc (May 7, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Kizaru didn't apprehend Old Rayleigh after their fight, most likely because he could not easily do so. Did Marco and Jozu hold off anyone? The admirals p much had their hands free right after every encounter with them. Akainu literally pushed past Marco, even though Marco has one of the most useful fruits when it comes to fighting top tiers, which Kat does not possess.


You could argue the same in favor of Marco and Jozu. Even though they fought, Marco and Jozu were not dealt with until they were both distracted. The same credit you’re giving to Ray, you have to apply to them if you wanna go that route. Also I pushed past Marco, as he should.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 7, 2019)

Conxc said:


> You could argue the same in favor of Marco and Jozu. Even though they fought, Marco and Jozu were not dealt with until they were both distracted. The same credit you’re giving to Ray, you have to apply to them if you wanna go that route. Also I pushed past Marco, as he should.



No, the credit Rey gets is preventing Kizaru from pursuing the strawhats for a significant amount of time, and afterwards Kizaru did not apprehend him either.

Marco and Jozu just managed to sideline or interrupt the admirals for a brief period of time. This is only further proven when none of them are able to really stop Akainu dead in his tracks, something Rayleigh was able to do against Kizaru.


----------



## Conxc (May 7, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> No, the credit Rey gets is preventing Kizaru from pursuing the strawhats for a significant amount of time, and afterwards Kizaru did not apprehend him either.


Plot also had a hand in that as you can’t really have a story without the main characters, can you? Like how he stood over Zoro for god knows how long instead of just killing him? Or took time to explain his DF to The crew? Not to mention Kizaru fought him on his terms in swordsmanship.



> Marco and Jozu just managed to sideline or interrupt the admirals for a brief period of time. This is only further proven when none of them are able to really stop Akainu dead in his tracks, something Rayleigh was able to do against Kizaru.


Yeah, until they were distracted. That is exactly what Rayleigh did. No one could stop Akainu. Akainu is Akainu, but Kizar and Aokiji *were *tied up with Marco and Jozu respectively until they were distracted.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 7, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Plot also had a hand in that as you can’t really have a story without the main characters, can you? Like how he stood over Zoro for god knows how long instead of just killing him? Or took time to explain his DF to The crew? Not to mention Kizaru fought him on his terms in swordsmanship.


You lose the argument if you bring in plot and you're on the side of feats during the Marineford war lmao.


Conxc said:


> Yeah, until they were distracted. That is exactly what Rayleigh did. No one could stop Akainu. Akainu is Akainu, but Kizar and Aokiji *were *tied up with Marco and Jozu respectively until they were distracted.


No, Akainu was near equal to Aokiji. If Akainu is able to render WB commanders mostly useless, so should the other admirals. The admirals *were not tied up with either* because we see them perform actions freely after their brief skirmishes with Marco/Jozu.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 7, 2019)

Rayleigh wins...dunno...too sad...Barça lost


----------



## Conxc (May 7, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> You lose the argument if you bring in plot and you're on the side of feats during the Marineford war lmao.


The funny part is, plot can be argued in all of the above situations. Obviously there was plot in the Rayleigh case and seeing how Kaido handled Luffy, there was plot in the Admirals vs the WBC. My question to everyone is how does Rayleigh’s situation differ from theirs so much that y’all apparently think he’s pseudo Admiral/Yonkou level? That’s a huge leap to say the least.



> No, Akainu was near equal to Aokiji. If Akainu is able to render WB commanders mostly useless, so should the other admirals. The admirals *were not tied up with either* because we see them perform actions freely after their brief skirmishes with Marco/Jozu.


And yet still, he was the only one shown to overpower Marco straight up. For whatever reason, plot or whatever, that’s how Oda has things play out.


----------



## Beast (May 7, 2019)

Ray was also distracted numberous times on account of the SH being taken out by Kuma and Co but still held off Kizaru.

Ray was a solid top tier in his prime but right off the bat of 22yr retirement, he could stop Kizaru dead in his tracks. Full stop. Kizaru never arrested or beat Ray nor got to the SHs. A feat no FM tier character could replicate from the little we’ve seen so far.

Kata could get 1HKO’d by Kaidou same as luffy, while the same thing could never be said about Ray currently.


----------



## Furinji Saiga (May 7, 2019)

Rayleigh wins medium-high difficulty.


----------



## Steven (May 8, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> If yonko and admirals are compareable, then Rayleigh should shit all over Katakuri, seeing what happened to Luffy against Kaido and how Rayleigh was able to put up a fight against Kizaru.
> 
> Mid diff max for Rayleigh.


But Kaido is the WSC.He can one shots FM's but Ray cant

If you think Kaido needs a high diff fight for old ray than good night.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 8, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> But Kaido is the WSC.He can one shots FM's but Ray cant
> 
> If you think Kaido needs a high diff fight for old ray than good night.



Huh, that's not what I said. I said Kaido oneshot a FM level character, most likely would oneshot Katakuri as well, yonko and admirals are compareable, Rayleigh *fought off *Kizaru for a significant amount of time and Kizaru decided not to pursue capturing him afterwards.

Thus Rayleigh should be comfortably above a yonko FM like Katakuri.


----------



## Steven (May 8, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Huh, that's not what I said. I said Kaido oneshot a FM level character, most likely would oneshot Katakuri as well, yonko and admirals are compareable, Rayleigh *fought off *Kizaru for a significant amount of time and Kizaru decided not to pursue capturing him afterwards.
> 
> Thus Rayleigh should be comfortably above a yonko FM like Katakuri.


Kizaru was holding back

Unlike Kaido,which by nature uses a lot of power


----------



## Dunno (May 8, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> But Kaido is the WSC.He can one shots FM's but Ray cant
> 
> If you think Kaido needs a high diff fight for old ray than good night.


----------



## Amol (May 8, 2019)

I find it amusing and disgusting that how much some posters stretch simple panels to fit their agenda. 
Oda literally through Garp and Sentomaru has told us that even old Rayleigh is a legend. 
No they would rather distrot a simple panel to conserve their headcanon. Rayleigh panted for entirely one panel and then he was perfectly fine in next one. 
OMG Rayleigh has stamina issues! 
If he had legit stamina issues then he would have continued to look exhausted. He didn't. Rayleigh was fighting the fastest man in entire damn world. OBD has recently accepted that feat for Light Speed feat. Forgive Rayleigh for panting exactly once against that kind of speed. 
But obviously that somehow transforms into Rayleigh having stamina issues and having them against every single person he fights from now on even if that person is light speed or not. 
Fact remains that single panel of panting is not a concluding evidence. It proves nothing as Luffy and Zoro had panted even more badly against opponents far weaker and slower than them. So this is nothing but intellectual dishonesty to downplay legend like Dark King whom some posters continue to treat as if he is some Yonkou FM or something. 
He is nothing but future Zoro. Remember how Oda treats Zoro and apply that same treatment to Rayleigh. 
Old Rayleigh is a legit Top tier through feats, portrayal and hype. No amount of downplay would change that. Katakuri is out of his league here. 
P. S. : I am not even gonna bother with nonsense that Kizaru was holding back against Rayleigh. That argument breaks the stupidity meter.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 8, 2019)

Amol said:


> I find it amusing and disgusting that how much some posters stretch simple panels to fit their agenda.
> Oda literally through Garp and Sentomaru has told us that even old Rayleigh is a legend.
> No they would rather distrot a simple panel to conserve their headcanon. Rayleigh panted for entirely one panel and then he was perfectly fine in next one.
> OMG Rayleigh has stamina issues!
> ...


So we have a light speed feat in OP ? Are you referring to Kizaru's kick ? Agree about the rest.


----------



## Amol (May 8, 2019)

Duhul10 said:


> So we have a light speed feat in OP ? Are you referring to Kizaru's kick ? Agree about the rest.


Yes. 
OBD now accepts that one piece top tiers has light speed reactions. 
Kizaru's mirror ability was legit light and Rayleigh had intercepted that. 
One Piece suddenly finds itself beating Naruto and Bleach in OBD now, except their God tiers.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 8, 2019)

Amol said:


> Yes.
> OBD now accepts that one piece top tiers has light speed reactions.
> Kizaru's mirror ability was legit light and Rayleigh had intercepted that.
> One Piece suddenly finds itself beating Naruto and Bleach in OBD now, except their God tiers.


Thanks! That is something nice to know.


----------



## Corax (May 8, 2019)

Actually it isn't a big deal here as both can see future and by default have FTL reactions (they react before event even happens). Personally I think that Ray has the edge here because he is force haki master,while Katakuri is only a black haki user. Also in One piece speed and reaction alone really are the worst stats to have (just remember Enel).


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 8, 2019)

Acnologia said:


> Kizaru was holding back
> 
> Unlike Kaido,which by nature uses a lot of power



Oh, you're just making your own fanfiction now.

I'll leave you to it.


----------



## Mr. Good vibes (May 8, 2019)

All i'm saying is Rayleigh preformed quite well against Kizaru despite him literally sitting on his ass and drinking for the last 20 years to the degree of not even drawing his sword within that time frame. You do have to ask yourself that was Rayleigh in the best condition to be fighting someone like an admiral out of the blue and more importantly do you see any of the yonko's firstmates being able to do the same given the same conditions?


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

I don’t see what puts him above FM level. Realistically he did about as much as Marco, Jozu or Vista against a top tier. If Marco or Jozu didn’t completely take their attention off of the Admirals, the fights would have been drawn out even longer, but we know who could end those fights if they wanted to. Same with Rayband Kizaru. He never completely turned his back on his opponent as the others did. 

Even if you don’t accept the Marco/Jozu situations, what about Vista? He held his own with Mihawk, as Ray did, and was never defeated or apprehended by him. How many people have said Vista is above a YFM? Difference is, Ray’s a favorite apparently.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Beast (May 8, 2019)

Mihawk wanting to postpone the fight only makes him look bad not Rayleigh. 

Marco, Jozu, Vista, Kata, Cracker and Jack all haven’t shown anything to suggest they could save the SH against Kizaru and Co the same way Rayleigh did.


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Mihawk wanting to postpone the fight only makes him look bad not Rayleigh.
> 
> Marco, Jozu, Vista, Kata, Cracker and Jack all haven’t shown anything to suggest they could save the SH against Kizaru and Co the same way Rayleigh did.


The point of bringing up the Mihawk situation is basically to ask the question why don’t we consider Vista FM level + after that? The situation is heavily comparable to Ray vs Kizaru, so what makes us snub Vista? Except for the fact that Ray is clearly a fan favorite, of course.

If we ignore plot as a reason why that was possible...Marco, Jozu, And Vista all saved Luffy from 3 Admirals, FA, Shichibukai and the rest of the Marines forces. I guess you’re right though.


----------



## Dunno (May 8, 2019)

Conxc said:


> The point of bringing up the Mihawk situation is basically to ask the question why don’t we consider Vista FM level + after that? The situation is heavily comparable to Ray vs Kizaru, so what makes us snub Vista? Except for the fact that Ray is clearly a fan favorite, of course.
> 
> If we ignore plot as a reason why that was possible...Marco, Jozu, And Vista all saved Luffy from 3 Admirals, FA, Shichibukai and the rest of the Marines forces. I guess you’re right though.


1. Vista didn't cut Mihawk. 
2. Vista hasn't been hyped to be a legend of the same magnitude as Whitebeard by Garp.
3. Vista hasn't shown to have way better Haki mastery than Luffy, who is at or above Yonkou FM level. 
4. Vista is a Yonkou commander.

Holding off a top tier for a while isn't nearly enough to be considered a top tier.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

Dunno said:


> 1. Vista didn't cut Mihawk.
> 2. Vista hasn't been hyped to be a legend of the same magnitude as Whitebeard by Garp.
> 3. Vista hasn't shown to have way better Haki mastery than Luffy, who is at or above Yonkou FM level.
> 4. Vista is a Yonkou commander.
> ...


1. By that logic, Jozu has done the same. Like Ray, he drew blood from a top tier.

2. He *was *a legend of that caliber. Doesn’t mean he still is.

3. Neither has Teach. Neither has Mihawk. Neither has Fujitora....but we know better than that, right?

4. And? Rayleigh’s an old retired man.


----------



## Dunno (May 8, 2019)

Conxc said:


> 1. By that logic, Jozu has done the same. Like Ray, he drew blood from a top tier.
> 
> 2. He *was *a legend of that caliber. Doesn’t mean he still is.
> 
> ...


You are really trying hard to downplay Rayleigh, aren't you? 

1. Jozu caught Aokiji off-guard. Rayleigh cut Kizaru is a straight up clash. 
2. He was a legend of that calibre just before MF. Garp wasn't talking about old times, he was talking about pre-TS Rayleigh. 
3. Are you saying we should presume that Vista has top tier haki? Or what do you try to argue with this point? Rayleigh has shown haki way above YFM level, something that we really can't assume that Vista has. 
4. Old retired men aren't standardised. Vista can reasonably be scaled to other Yonkou commanders, while Rayleigh can't be scaled to anyone.


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

Dunno said:


> You are really trying hard to downplay Rayleigh, aren't you?
> 
> 1. Jozu caught Aokiji off-guard. Rayleigh cut Kizaru is a straight up clash.
> 2. He was a legend of that calibre just before MF. Garp wasn't talking about old times, he was talking about pre-TS Rayleigh.
> ...


I’m trying to understand this downplay of YFM characters, is all.

1. Still, his Haki was strong enough to injure Aokiji. Something that other characters who should be stronger have not been able to do, off-guard or not.
2. Saying he’s a legend doesn’t mean he was comparable to Garp and especially not WB at that point. He is a legend. I scale him at exactly YFM level, and I feel that’s generous. That’s still a strong enough character to warrant Garp saying something like that.
3. No. I’m asking why does what Ray did automatically put him significantly above YFM level when other characters have some iteration of the same feat(s) but they aren’t shown the same level of respect automatically. Regarding Ray’s Haki mastery, “way above YFM level?” Why, because he has the “advanced” CoA? Sentomaru and Hyou do as well. That doesn’t mean their mastery is greater than that of a YFM. That has more to do with application if Hyou’s Words mean anything.
4. Exactly. There is no one to scale him to, meaning, he’s not difinitively above YFM level for stalling an Admiral. Other characters have done so. Hurting an Admiral? Another character has done that. All YC level.


----------



## Dunno (May 8, 2019)

Conxc said:


> I’m trying to understand this downplay of YFM characters, is all.
> 
> 1. Still, his Haki was strong enough to injure Aokiji. Something that other characters who should be stronger have not been able to do, off-guard or not.
> 2. Saying he’s a legend doesn’t mean he was comparable to Garp and especially not WB at that point. He is a legend. I scale him at exactly YFM level, and I feel that’s generous. That’s still a strong enough character to warrant Garp saying something like that.
> ...


Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. Rayleigh has way better feats and portrayal than any YFM, which should be obvious to anyone. You might as well argue that YFM are stronger than Yonkous or Admirals, it would made just as much sense.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. Rayleigh has way better feats and portrayal than any YFM, which should be obvious to anyone. You might as well argue that YFM are stronger than Yonkous or Admirals, it would made just as much sense.


Not really, and “way better” is a stretch.


----------



## Beast (May 8, 2019)

Conxc said:


> The point of bringing up the Mihawk situation is basically to ask the question why don’t we consider Vista FM level + after that? The situation is heavily comparable to Ray vs Kizaru, so what makes us snub Vista? Except for the fact that Ray is clearly a fan favorite, of course.
> 
> If we ignore plot as a reason why that was possible...Marco, Jozu, And Vista all saved Luffy from 3 Admirals, FA, Shichibukai and the rest of the Marines forces. I guess you’re right though.


Lol, Vista isn’t comparable to Mihawk... it’s Been made very clear in any data book. It’s the same as Croc stopping Mihawk. Mihawk wasn’t paying Vista any attention and was fully focused on Luffy and this so called special ability to draw people to his side. Ray is a fan favourite that is true... people put him on the level of Garp but you’re doing the complete opposite.

No, Ray was alone... they could never achieve the same thing alone... Akainu made that very clear. 
You are comparing a war with a Solo mission. Doesn’t work like that dude. 
Marco the best out of them could only momentarily postpone an admiral. 

Ray isn’t stomping Kata, I think he has gone past that age but lose to one of BMs children? You must be craaazy.


----------



## Conxc (May 8, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Lol, Vista isn’t comparable to Mihawk... it’s Been made very clear in any data book. It’s the same as Croc stopping Mihawk. Mihawk wasn’t paying Vista any attention and was fully focused on Luffy and this so called special ability to draw people to his side. Ray is a fan favourite that is true... people put him on the level of Garp but you’re doing the complete opposite.
> 
> No, Ray was alone... they could never achieve the same thing alone... Akainu made that very clear.
> You are comparing a war with a Solo mission. Doesn’t work like that dude.
> ...


And you could argue that Kizaru’s goal was to beat the SHs... Hence why he left as soon as Kuma sent them away. You guys are making it seem like Ray wasn’t apprehended because Kizaru *couldn’t *do so. If we were having this conversation about Garp, I’d agree 1000% but Ray hasn’t done anything that WBC haven’t done, bias aside. 

Marco single handedly saved WB from all three Admirals at some point. Jozu stoped Aokiji from continuing to attack WB and he even trusted him to do so.


----------



## Beast (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> And you could argue that Kizaru’s goal was to beat the SHs... Hence why he left as soon as Kuma sent them away. You guys are making it seem like Ray wasn’t apprehended because Kizaru *couldn’t *do so. If we were having this conversation about Garp, I’d agree 1000% but Ray hasn’t done anything that WBC haven’t done, bias aside.
> 
> Marco single handedly saved WB from all three Admirals at some point. Jozu stoped Aokiji from continuing to attack WB and he even trusted him to do so.


Kizaru knows Kumas DF ability, he knows the SHs weren’t killed by that. Kuma even interacts with Ray after sending them all away. Kizaru wasn’t there to just spank the SH... unless you forgot Luffy and the SHs put hands on the CDs that’s THE ONLY reason Kizaru came to SA, to apprehend the SHs not give them a spanking. At very least they would have been thrown in ID and at worst become slaves to the CDs they just hit, Kizaru couldnt do his job because Ray was there.

If Kizaru could have arrested Ray... he would have to compensate for his failure but he didn’t.

Again only briefly. It was a big war with multiple allies and opponents for each side, it is not comparable to Rays feat at all.

Quick question if you Ray in the position of Marco and Vista, if Ray had sneak attacked Akainu... would Akainus be brushing it off like nothing happened?


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Kizaru knows Kumas DF ability, he knows the SHs weren’t killed by that. Kuma even interacts with Ray after sending them all away. Kizaru wasn’t there to just spank the SH... unless you forgot Luffy and the SHs put hands on the CDs that’s THE ONLY reason Kizaru came to SA, to apprehend the SHs not give them a spanking. At very least they would have been thrown in ID and at worst become slaves to the CDs they just hit, Kizaru couldnt do his job because Ray was there.
> 
> If Kizaru could have arrested Ray... he would have to compensate for his failure but he didn’t.
> 
> ...


So you think Rayleigh is stronger than Kizaru? Because that’s the only way that Kizaru *wouldn’t *be able to do his job aside from plot.

Doesn’t matter. It was still done. Ray also didn’t have a long, dragged out battle with Kizaru because Kuma sped up the process by saving the SHs in the first place.

Considering that this is the same Akainu that more or less shrugged off a 2 quake punches to the gut. Took him some time, but he came back swinging.


----------



## Beast (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> So you think Rayleigh is stronger than Kizaru? Because that’s the only way that Kizaru *wouldn’t *be able to do his job aside from plot.
> 
> Doesn’t matter. It was still done. Ray also didn’t have a long, dragged out battle with Kizaru because Kuma sped up the process by saving the SHs in the first place.
> 
> Considering that this is the same Akainu that more or less shrugged off a 2 quake punches to the gut. Took him some time, but he came back swinging.


Lol what? Being stronger doesn’t mean he can just arrest him... in case you forgot higher/ top tiers fights take days and guess what? Kizaru has a war to attend so no, arresting Ray was out the wind and Garps statement only confirms this.

Kuma came after Ray, when the SHs were splitting up to run from the Px and Fatboy. Kizaru was going to kill the SHs as we saw him trying to put a hole in Zoro but was stopped and could no longer get the SHs that is facts. Don’t start making up numbers in your head of how long all that lasted.


So, Akainu isn’t going to be effected by it? Is that what you’re saying?


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Lol what? Being stronger doesn’t mean he can just arrest him... in case you forgot higher/ top tiers fights take days and guess what? Kizaru has a war to attend so no, arresting Ray was out the wind and Garps statement only confirms this.


Rayleigh was tired after a few *minutes *of sparring with Kizaru. What *days *was Ray gonna spend fighting him? My point stands. Unless you think Rayleigh is stronger than Kizaru, then outside of plot reasons, it’s fraudulent to state that Kizaru *could not *apprehend him if he wanted to.



> Kuma came after Ray, when the SHs were splitting up to run from the Px and Fatboy. Kizaru was going to kill the SHs as we saw him trying to put a hole in Zoro but was stopped and could no longer get the SHs that is facts. Don’t start making up numbers in your head of how long all that lasted.


Kizaru stood over Zoro for weeks like he was *waiting *for someone to save him lmao. So much for seriously intending to kill them. I’m not making up numbers. I never specified how much time it took, but anyone could tell it wasn’t a long scuffle.




> So, Akainu isn’t going to be effected by it? Is that what you’re saying?


You asked me if he’d shrug it off. I gave you an example of him shrugging off damage outside of the reals of what Ray could put out, so my answer is yes. Would he be hurt some? Maybe, but again, he shrugged off two quake punches from enraged WB to the gut.


----------



## Beast (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Rayleigh was tired after a few *minutes *of sparring with Kizaru. What *days *was Ray gonna spend fighting him? My point stands. Unless you think Rayleigh is stronger than Kizaru, then outside of plot reasons, it’s fraudulent to state that Kizaru *could not *apprehend him if he wanted to.
> 
> Kizaru stood over Zoro for weeks like he was *waiting *for someone to save him lmao. So much for seriously intending to kill them. I’m not making up numbers. I never specified how much time it took, but anyone could tell it wasn’t a long scuffle.
> 
> ...


Yup sounds like fanfic... panting hard doesn’t mean he could no longer fight. Literally nothing to suggest that Ray can’t fight for days when the likes of rookie ace could. 

Yhh, not really gonna get into it if you think Kizaru was standing over Zoro for weeks... you’re literally making things up as you go. Listen man... stick to one routine. Kizaru was seriously going to kill Zoro had Ray not turned up and for you to suggest anything else is... well the end of this convo if I’m honest. 

Akainu didn’t shrug off WBs attacks... either read the war again or don’t lie. He shrugged off Marco and Vistas attacks not WB. 

You’re literally downplaying a number of feats to make Ray look bad. Half of your statements don’t make sense. 

- Ray was not tired but panting on one single panel. 
- Kizaru wasn’t atop Zoro for Weeks
- Kizaru was seriously trying to kill Zoro and the rest of the SHs.
- Akainu didn’t shrug off WBs quakes 

So what more lies are you gonna try to tell us?


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Yup sounds like fanfic... panting hard doesn’t mean he could no longer fight. Literally nothing to suggest that Ray can’t fight for days when the likes of rookie ace could.


Panting = sign of fatigue. This alone combats the notion that he could fight an *Admiral *for days. You have 0 evidence supporting that he could. I have him on panel showing signs of fatigue after a few minutes.

Also funny how you’re comparing a 17 year old Rookie, who fought someone that was actually on his level, to an old man fighting someone above his level? Also implying that fatigue has anything to do with tiers. Just concede at this point.



> Yhh, not really gonna get into it if you think Kizaru was standing over Zoro for weeks... you’re literally making things up as you go. Listen man... stick to one routine. Kizaru was seriously going to kill Zoro had Ray not turned up and for you to suggest anything else is... well the end of this convo if I’m honest.


Do I honestly have to *say *that the “weeks” statement was hyperbole? Obvious enough, I meant that he stood over him for a very long time, even going as far as to explain his DF ability to the crew while he was “seriously” trying to kill Zoro.



> Akainu didn’t shrug off WBs attacks... either read the war again or don’t lie. He shrugged off Marco and Vistas attacks not WB.


He didn’t shrug off WB’s attacks as he took them, but not too long after he was back chasing and fighting YC level opponents including a FM and overpowering them. Again, Rayleigh hasn’t shown he could put out as much damage as WB in his current state, so why should I believe Akainu would be seriously hurt by him?



> You’re literally downplaying a number of feats to make Ray look bad. Half of your statements don’t make sense.
> 
> - Ray was not tired but panting on one single panel.
> - Kizaru wasn’t atop Zoro for Weeks
> ...


-Panting is a sign of fatigue, again. Your argument might as well be “he wasn’t tired because I said so.” Where’s the evidence?
-Obvious hyperbole is obvious.
-Right. I guess Zoro was just too slippery for him half dead on the ground. And I guess it also made perfect sense to explain your DF ability to the people that you seriously intend to kill. Also makes sense to watch Kuma save their lives one by one too.
-Answered this above.



> So what more lies are you gonna try to tell us?


I’ve told no lies. I can back up what I’m saying. You’re just in denial.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 9, 2019)

Panting is not necessarily a sign of fatigue. In that instance Oda meant to show us that Rayleigh was in a bit of a struggle because he was facing and incredibly powerful opponent after many years of booze and women. However, temporarily struggling =/= being overwhelmed or tired. Anyway, old Ray's portrayal and hype puts him quite above FM level characters who get casually one-shotted by yonko calliber opponents when serious ( see Luffy vs Kaido )


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

He managed exactly what Marco, Jozu and Vista managed feat wise. Portrayal wise, same, and then the fact that he’s portrayed to be an old man well passed his prime. Hype wise? Old Ray? Am I missing something?


----------



## Duhul10 (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> He managed exactly what Marco, Jozu and Vista managed feat wise. Portrayal wise, same, and then the fact that he’s portrayed to be an old man well passed his prime. Hype wise? Old Ray? Am I missing something?


Called a legend, was put in the same sentence with WB by Garp. Basically everybody was licking his ass in SA.  Featwise he stalemated Kizaru after years of doing nothing. Basically Kizaru could not lay a hand on him and it did not seem like he would have in the near future. Also note that Rayleigh was also extremely concerned about the safety of the SHs as his main objective was to protect them and not to kill Kizaru. Kizaru on the other hand, had no reason not to kill Rayleigh.


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

Duhul10 said:


> Called a legend, was put in the same sentence with WB by Garp. Basically everybody was licking his ass in SA.  Featwise he stalemated Kizaru after years of doing nothing. Basically Kizaru could not lay a hand on him and it did not seem like he would have in the near future. Also note that Rayleigh was also extremely concerned about the safety of the SHs as his main objective was to protect them and not to kill Kizaru. Kizaru on the other hand, had no reason not to kill Rayleigh.


And none of that means that he’s on their level. At that point, being YFM level would probably yield the same praise. Stalemated is a strong word, especially since at best he was holding him off because, again, he was showing signs of fatigue after a few minutes of sparring. It’s asinine to assume that Kizaru *couldn’t *have beaten him if plot allowed it. Just as silly as assuming Mihawk wouldn’t have wiped the floor with Vista. The only difference here is that Ray is a favorite. Kizaru also had all the reason to finish off a half dead Zoro in a heartbeat, but plot had that not happen.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> And none of that means that he’s on their level. At that point, being YFM level would probably yield the same praise. Stalemated is a strong word, especially since at best he was holding him off because, again, he was showing signs of fatigue after a few minutes of sparring. It’s asinine to assume that Kizaru *couldn’t *have beaten him if plot allowed it. Just as silly as assuming Mihawk wouldn’t have wiped the floor with Vista. The only difference here is that Ray is a favorite. Kizaru also had all the reason to finish off a half dead Zoro in a heartbeat, but plot had that not happen.


Again, no fatigue, but rather stress and struggle of facing an admiral after many years of doing nothing. So you are accusing plot because Rayleigh did not lose ?  Let us accuse plot of Luffy loosing to Kaido, or Ace loosing to Blackbeard. Plot is the reason of everything happening in a manga. Plot is basically the author's wish to include something into his art. You keep mentioning that Ray is a favourite. That has nothing to do with his feats or portrayal. You are denying everything about him. Being a yonko first mate level gives you the praise of being called a legend and being mentioned next to WB as a huge danger ? Luffy is a first mate level and he got no-diffed by a Yonko. Rayleigh is someone who is said by Garp to actually make a difference. Garp thought that the Marines could not handle both WB and Rayleigh at the same time. That is one of the greatest examples of hype in the manga.


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

Duhul10 said:


> Again, no fatigue, but rather stress and struggle of facing an admiral after many years of doing nothing. So you are accusing plot because Rayleigh did not lose ?  Let us accuse plot of Luffy loosing to Kaido, or Ace loosing to Blackbeard. Plot is the reason of everything happening in a manga. Plot is basically the author's wish to include something into his art. You keep mentioning that Ray is a favourite. That has nothing to do with his feats or portrayal. You are denying everything about him. Being a yonko first mate level gives you the praise of being called a legend and being mentioned next to WB as a huge danger ? Luffy is a first mate level and he got no-diffed by a Yonko. Rayleigh is someone who is said by Garp to actually make a difference. Garp thought that the Marines could not handle both WB and Rayleigh at the same time. That is one of the greatest examples of hype in the manga.


Fatigue, stress and struggle. Sounds like semantics. Let’s use your version. In what world does that translate to him being able to fight a top tier for days, let’s a lone hours? Plot certainly is the reason. Like why Kizaru killed none of the SNs he encountered even though he could have. Like why he insisted on talking instead of stomping on Zoro and killing him. Like how Mihawk and Sakazuki were held up by someone like Crocodile. Obvious plot is plot. It isn’t plot that raybdidnt lose. It’s plot that they just stopped fighting. Everything about that given what an Admiral is was plot. 

As far as being a legend, he was a legend and by name he still is Dark along Rayleigh. Doesn’t mean that he’s a top tier today. Also, considering that the Marines completely stomped the WBP, Rayleigh alone must be worth a Yonkou crew or two himself for Garp’s statement to be accurate. Hype that makes no sense is just hype. I’m not denying anything. I’m just not blowing things out of proportion.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Fatigue, stress and struggle. Sounds like semantics. Let’s use your version. In what world does that translate to him being able to fight a top tier for days, let’s a lone hours? Plot certainly is the reason. Like why Kizaru killed none of the SNs he encountered even though he could have. Like why he insisted on talking instead of stomping on Zoro and killing him. Like how Mihawk and Sakazuki were held up by someone like Crocodile. Obvious plot is plot. It isn’t plot that raybdidnt lose. It’s plot that they just stopped fighting. Everything about that given what an Admiral is was plot.
> 
> As far as being a legend, he was a legend and by name he still is Dark along Rayleigh. Doesn’t mean that he’s a top tier today. Also, considering that the Marines completely stomped the WBP, Rayleigh alone must be worth a Yonkou crew or two himself for Garp’s statement to be accurate. Hype that makes no sense is just hype. I’m not denying anything. I’m just not blowing things out of proportion.


He tried to kill Zoro, he could not because of Rayleigh. Also, Kizaru is not the type of guy to hit first and ask later like Sakazuki.
No, he was not a legend. He is a legend. WB was a legend because he is dead. Rayleigh is a living legend. As for Mihawk, the guy had barely any  motivation. Plus he respects Vista too much to kill him. That hype was way too straightforward not to be taken seriously. Oda meant to tell us that Rayleigh is a huge threat, which he is. At his age to stalemate an admiral after years of inactivity is an incredible feat. That was not Old Rayleigh. That was a rusty old Rayleigh. Kizaru even admitted that he simply can't get past Rayleigh ( when Kuma came iirc, he was impressed by the fact that Rayleigh was not content with managing to only stall him ).


----------



## Dunno (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> And none of that means that he’s on their level. At that point, being YFM level would probably yield the same praise. Stalemated is a strong word, especially since at best he was holding him off because, again, he was showing signs of fatigue after a few minutes of sparring. It’s asinine to assume that Kizaru *couldn’t *have beaten him if plot allowed it. Just as silly as assuming Mihawk wouldn’t have wiped the floor with Vista. The only difference here is that Ray is a favorite. Kizaru also had all the reason to finish off a half dead Zoro in a heartbeat, but plot had that not happen.


Why would it be insane to assume that Kizaru couldn't have beaten Rayleigh? He was having trouble keeping his blood from escaping his body after about one minute of fighting. Kizaru might habe died had he continued.


----------



## Conxc (May 9, 2019)

Duhul10 said:


> He tried to kill Zoro, he could not because of Rayleigh. Also, Kizaru is not the type of guy to hit first and ask later like Sakazuki.
> No, he was not a legend. He is a legend. WB was a legend because he is dead. Rayleigh is a living legend. As for Mihawk, the guy had barely any  motivation. Plus he respects Vista too much to kill him. That hype was way too straightforward not to be taken seriously. Oda meant to tell us that Rayleigh is a huge threat, which he is. At his age to stalemate an admiral after years of inactivity is an incredible feat. That was not Old Rayleigh. That was a rusty old Rayleigh. Kizaru even admitted that he simply can't get past Rayleigh ( when Kuma came iirc, he was impressed by the fact that Rayleigh was not content with managing to only stall him ).


He had ample opportunity to kill Zoro. Robin had time to attempt to save Zoro’s life. Usopp and Brook has time to attack and realize that their attacks weren’t working. Then Kizaru bothered to explain his ability instead of simply killing Zoro. That’s a lot of time to not do something that would have been instant. It’s called PIS, and that’s a *blatant *example of it. There’s really no denying that. 

Never seen Mihawk say he respected Vista enough not to kill him. Rayleigh can be a huge threat at YFM level, as many at the war saw Marco. Despite the recent YFM downplay, they’re respected in the OP verse. Big Mom was very wary of King when he appeared.

I’m gonna need to see a panel of Kizaru saying that. 



Dunno said:


> Why would it be insane to assume that Kizaru couldn't have beaten Rayleigh? He was having trouble keeping his blood from escaping his body after about one minute of fighting. Kizaru might habe died had he continued.


Kizaru is a top 10 character in the verse. Old Rayleigh is not. He got a cut on his cheek, which Jozu also managed to do against Aokiji. Guess Aokiji might have died if Jozu was never distracted.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 9, 2019)

Conxc said:


> He had ample opportunity to kill Zoro. Robin had time to attempt to save Zoro’s life. Usopp and Brook has time to attack and realize that their attacks weren’t working. Then Kizaru bothered to explain his ability instead of simply killing Zoro. That’s a lot of time to not do something that would have been instant. It’s called PIS, and that’s a *blatant *example of it. There’s really no denying that.
> 
> Never seen Mihawk say he respected Vista enough not to kill him. Rayleigh can be a huge threat at YFM level, as many at the war saw Marco. Despite the recent YFM downplay, they’re respected in the OP verse. Big Mom was very wary of King when he appeared.
> 
> ...


I described what I meant with the Kizaru part in the brackets. Mihawk stated he would be a fool not to have heard of Vista. That is a sign of respect. That wouldn't be a reason not to kill Vista, but the main issue was actually Mihawk's non-existent motivation.


----------



## nmwn93 (May 10, 2019)

Ray had stamina problem? You mean the guy that swam the calm belt? Yall high af. Ray low diffs.


----------



## nmwn93 (May 10, 2019)

Conxc said:


> He had ample opportunity to kill Zoro. Robin had time to attempt to save Zoro’s life. Usopp and Brook has time to attack and realize that their attacks weren’t working. Then Kizaru bothered to explain his ability instead of simply killing Zoro. That’s a lot of time to not do something that would have been instant. It’s called PIS, and that’s a *blatant *example of it. There’s really no denying that.
> 
> Never seen Mihawk say he respected Vista enough not to kill him. Rayleigh can be a huge threat at YFM level, as many at the war saw Marco. Despite the recent YFM downplay, they’re respected in the OP verse. Big Mom was very wary of King when he appeared.
> 
> ...


Big mom would have bitch smaked king. She was worried about her ship getting knocked out the air


----------



## Conxc (May 10, 2019)

Swimming the calm belt doesn’t translate well to fighting a top 10 character (someone stronger than he is) for days. 

Obviously 1v1 she would, but the respect was still there. Like the respect was there for Marco as well, and Benn Beckmann. Only y’all here on NF don’t respect YFM characters.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## barreltheif (May 10, 2019)

Kizaru attacks the SHs. Rayleigh fought him off for several chapters, and in the end Kizaru retreated and went back to Marineford. Kizaru made Rayleigh pant once for one panel. Rayleigh scratched Kizaru's cheek.

Now I'm not saying that Rayleigh is stronger than Kizaru, or even that he is equal to him. But it would be really bizarre to read that fight and conclude that Rayleigh is way weaker than Kizaru.

Jozu ambushed Aokiji while he was fighting WB, and gave him a bloody lip. Their fight goes off panel, and when we see them in the next chapter, Jozu is distracted and immediately gets one shotted.

Not exactly comparable.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Beast (May 10, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Panting = sign of fatigue. This alone combats the notion that he could fight an *Admiral *for days. You have 0 evidence supporting that he could. I have him on panel showing signs of fatigue after a few minutes.
> 
> Also funny how you’re comparing a 17 year old Rookie, who fought someone that was actually on his level, to an old man fighting someone above his level? Also implying that fatigue has anything to do with tiers. Just concede at this point.
> 
> ...


For 1 single fucking panel. He was not tired, that is your headcannon. We didn’t see him panting anymore after that, so no nothing to suggest that Ray can’t do what people on his tier and below could do. Ray could be fighting either Garp or WB and they wouldn’t be beating him in a single day forget hours or minutes that you’re suggesting.

And you’re suggesting that Ray isn’t on the same level as Kizaru? If he wasn’t, stopping him would have been out the window if that was the case but guess what? Ray did actually stop him.

Lol, I’m not even sure what to say... if anything it only hypes Ray as Kizaru couldn’t sense him coming. Plus I don’t remember Kizaru explaining his fruit to SHs... gonna have to look through that quick. I remember Kizaru appearing in front of Zoro and when he went for his first laser Robin rolled him away and Than Kizaru stood ontop of Zoro to stop Robin from rolling Zoro down and Than Ray appeared and blocked Kizarus second attack. Not sure where you’re getting this suggestion that Kizaru was not actually going kill Zoro had Ray not appeared or you think Kizaru would have continued to just stand there daydreaming instead of attacking which he did twice one he missed or didn’t get shoot because Robin managed to move Zoro and second he was blocked by Ray.


Concede than... Akainu didn’t shrug off WBs attack, he Shrugged off Marco and Vista, so now I’m going to ask that same question... do you think Akainu would shrug off Rays attack like he did with Marco and Vista?

Are you stupid or just dumb?
Every single panel after that showed no sign of ‘fatigue’ like you’re suggesting. You took one single panel and stretched it to suit you’re needs.

Yup you’re both or you just don’t remember that part of the arc properly.
Robin moved Zoro, not that Zoro was slippery.
I’ll boltpoint my next post to make things easier.


----------



## Beast (May 10, 2019)

- Ray pants for one single panel

He is tired and can’t continue the fight for much longer... because @Conxc  said so.


- Ray fight Kizaru on equal footing and even manages to cut him.

Ray is way weaker than Kizaru and he isn’t on the same level... @Conxc suggests.


- Kizaru attack’s the SHs, Zoro anyway and Robin rolls him away to save his life ONCE.

Plot hole, Zoro isn’t that slippery... @Conxc refutes


- Kizaru gets atop Zoro to stop Robin and loads his second attack.

@Conxc kizaru doesn’t want kill Zoro and is there to talk.


- Kizaru gets blocked by Ray

PIS PIS PIS
@Conxc starts screaming


@Conxc
Starts suggesting that Jozu giving a distracted Admiral a lip bleed is equal to Ray cutting Kizarus cheek head on.

He also furthers suggests that Akainu Shrugged off WBs enraged attacks and so,Ray would not be able to damage Akainu even with a distraction.

He doesn’t stop there... he says Kizaru WATCHED Kuma save the SHs lives, like it was a choice.

He ends it with saying he told no LIES.

Amazing discussion but I’m tired my dude and other people are more than happy to help you understand the situation with Ray but I’m kinda done.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (May 10, 2019)

@MasterBeast You’re... _nice_, Beast, to say the least. That’s all I’ll say because I’m a gentleman. You continue to throw fits and name call over the internet, though. Suits you.

Regarding this discussion, in response to all of you, I can’t say anything that I haven’t already said, that has either been dodged or poorly addressed. I don’t care to run around in circles anymore, so I’m gonna agree to disagree. Time will tell, or it won’t because his calling point at this juncture of the story is Flashback King Rayleigh. All I can say is, I hope YFM level characters don’t continue to get slept on.


----------



## Beast (May 10, 2019)

Conxc said:


> @MasterBeast You’re... _nice_, Beast, to say the least. That’s all I’ll say because I’m a gentleman. You continue to throw fits and name call over the internet, though. Suits you.
> 
> Regarding this discussion, in response to all of you, I can’t say anything that I haven’t already said, that has either been dodged or poorly addressed. I don’t care to run around in circles anymore, so I’m gonna agree to disagree. Time will tell, or it won’t because his calling point at this juncture of the story is Flashback King Rayleigh. All I can say is, I hope YFM level characters don’t continue to get slept on.


Bruh... never take the name calling seriously. Plus i always give two options 

Most of these topics are going to revisited by Oda nor does he give a toss.

Seems like no FM is gonna matter other than Ben, Prime Zoro, Old and prime Ray. The rest will continue to disappoint because Oda nor us give a darn.

Unless Kaidou was Rocks/ Locks FM lol.


----------



## Conxc (May 10, 2019)

@MasterBeast Idk man. You play the act of a dickhead preeeetty well...


----------



## Beast (May 10, 2019)

Conxc said:


> @MasterBeast Idk man. You play the act of a dickhead preeeetty well...


Lucky I was born with a dick and a head.


----------



## MO (May 11, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Yeah, this isn't going anywhere. Rayleigh has way better feats and portrayal than any YFM, which should be obvious to anyone. You might as well argue that YFM are stronger than Yonkous or Admirals, it would made just as much sense.


he doesn't have better feats. He did the same thing marco and jozu did on marineford and thats it. He has better protrayal by being put in the same sentence as whitebeard and being the fm to roger but other than that there is nothing.


----------



## Beast (May 11, 2019)

MO said:


> he doesn't have better feats. He did the same thing marco and jozu did on marineford and thats it. He has better protrayal by being put in the same sentence as whitebeard and being the fm to roger but other than that there is nothing.


You must have forgot the part where he wounded Kizaru. 
It’s funny how people twist words to meet their needs. He wasn’t just put in the same sentence as WB but compared as two legends.


----------



## Dunno (May 11, 2019)

MO said:


> he doesn't have better feats. He did the same thing marco and jozu did on marineford and thats it. He has better protrayal by being put in the same sentence as whitebeard and being the fm to roger but other than that there is nothing.


That's wrong.

1. He did not do the same thing Marco and Jozu did. He harmed Kizaru in a straight up clash between the two. They clashed swords, and Kizaru's cheek was bleeding. Marco and Jozu blind-sided their opponents. Ray showed just as clear superiority regarding technique as Kizaru did stamina.

2. He also has the feat of being way better than Luffy at Haki, which is quite a huge thing as we saw in the Katakuri fight.

3. Finally, he doesn't have the slew of detrimental feats that Yonkou commanders have. A lot of them have lost to Luffy level opponents or even weaker ones. Rayleigh hasn't lost to anyone.

Rayleigh is unquestionably superior to Yonkou commanders in every regard, whether you look at feats or portrayal.


----------



## Dunno (May 11, 2019)

MO said:


> he give kizaru a small ass scratch and thats it lol. That is nothing. The YC manage to clash with admiral and and stall them too.
> 
> so? katakuri is better than luffy at using haki to. Luffy complemented Cracker's haki at being supper hard.
> 
> only 2 have lost to luffy. Cracker lost because of the help luffy got(nami). Katakuri lost because the ^ (use bro) grew to like luffy and completly threw forgot his objective to kill luffy.


Managing to stall someone =/= coming out ahead. This should be obvious to anyone. Marco and Jozu did the same thing Ray did if you ignore the facts that Rayleigh injured his opponent while Jozu got taken out and Marco got severely hurt. Managing to stall an Admiral isn't that impressive. 

Katakuri was better at Luffy at the beginning, and he was dominating. Luffy then became better at CoO and was able to match Katakuri. At the end of the fight, they were at similar levels regarding CoO. This arc, Luffy is training to learn Rayleigh level CoA, which he'll use to defeat Kaido. And even then, he'll still need to catch up to him in CoC. Rayleigh has shown the best haki mastery in the manga, if you don't consider that to be a good feat, then that's on you. 

And Jozu got one-shot, Marco and his crew were obliterated by the BBs, Jack barely managed to beat CatDog and got wrecked by Babar. Snack lost to Urouge, Ace lost to Yami BB and Burgess (Admittedly maybe not a top commander) lost to Sabo.


----------



## MO (May 11, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Managing to stall someone =/= coming out ahead. This should be obvious to anyone. Marco and Jozu did the same thing Ray did if you ignore the facts that Rayleigh injured his opponent while Jozu got taken out and Marco got severely hurt. Managing to stall an Admiral isn't that impressive.
> 
> Katakuri was better at Luffy at the beginning, and he was dominating. Luffy then became better at CoO and was able to match Katakuri. At the end of the fight, they were at similar levels regarding CoO. This arc, Luffy is training to learn Rayleigh level CoA, which he'll use to defeat Kaido. And even then, he'll still need to catch up to him in CoC. Rayleigh has shown the best haki mastery in the manga, if you don't consider that to be a good feat, then that's on you.
> 
> And Jozu got one-shot, Marco and his crew were obliterated by the BBs, Jack barely managed to beat CatDog and got wrecked by Babar. Snack lost to Urouge, Ace lost to Yami BB and Burgess (Admittedly maybe not a top commander) lost to Sabo.


they only ever got hurt annd injured when they got distracted. Marco had to get seastones cuff to get hurt.

he was better and still is better when it comes to buso haki. Luffy being better than kata at CoO now is just baseless. 

jozu got beaten when he got distracted like I said earlier. Marco and his crew losing to BB isn't that bad considering jozu was handicapped,ace dead,tatch dead.  neko and inu both failled to do anything to jack.


----------



## Canute87 (May 11, 2019)

nothing kata has that rayleigh can't deal with.

Rayleigh is simply way too experienced.


----------



## Canute87 (May 12, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Rayleigh doesn't have stamina issues. Panting once, on one panel, means very little. It's not an indication that you're losing. Zoro panted against Pica.
> 
> Rayleigh low-mid diff.



pica was downright wheezing against zoro.


----------



## Nox (May 12, 2019)

Nothing more frustrating than arguing against your favorite characters. However, how is Rayleigh and Jozu's feat different? Both attacked an Admiral concerned/concentrating his efforts on another party. The former charging towards SH and the later WB. If you read through the thread, you'd think Rayleigh outmaneuvered through Kizaru's slashes and bodied him. You can talk about Kizaru, Kizumonogatari, Kisame, Kiss Anime. It doesn't matter Katakuri *IS NOT* getting Low Diffed. Outside Kaido nobody is alive is doing that to him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Duhul10 (May 12, 2019)

Astro said:


> Nothing more frustrating than arguing against your favorite characters. However, how is Rayleigh and Jozu's feat different? Both attacked an Admiral concerned/concentrating his efforts on another party. The former charging towards SH and the later WB. If you read through the thread, you'd think Rayleigh outmaneuvered through Kizaru's slashes and bodied him. You can talk about Kizaru, Kizumonogatari, Kisame, Kiss Anime. It doesn't matter Katakuri *IS NOT* getting Low Diffed. Outside Kaido nobody is alive is doing that to him.


The diffrrence is Kizaru knew Rayleigh was there as he was in front of him. Jozu came out of nowhere. Kizaru simply cpuld not get past Rayleigh. Also, we should mention that Rayleigh had no intent to kill. Why ? Because he had no actual reason to. Plus, it would have been the end of him if Kizaru died. Jozu, on the other hand, was thirsty for blood.


----------



## barreltheif (May 12, 2019)

Astro said:


> However, how is Rayleigh and Jozu's feat different? Both attacked an Admiral concerned/concentrating his efforts on another party. The former charging towards SH and the later WB.



Preskip Luffy also attacked an admiral. Attacking an admiral means nothing. What matters is the outcome.

Rayleigh successfully stalled Kizaru for several chapters, preventing him from pursuing the SHs. Kizaru failed to defeat or capture Rayleigh, and as far as we know he never even landed a single blow on him. Kizaru eventually retreated to Marineford, since trying to capture Rayleigh wasn't worth it.

Jozu stalled Aokiji for a chapter off panel, but messed up and turned around in the middle of the fight, and got one shot. He lost an arm, and only survived because his allies carried him away.


----------



## cry77 (May 12, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Kizaru didn't apprehend Old Rayleigh after their fight, most likely because he could not easily do so. Did Marco and Jozu hold off anyone? The admirals p much had their hands free right after every encounter with them. *Akainu literally pushed past Marco*, even though Marco has one of the most useful fruits when it comes to fighting top tiers, which Kat does not possess.


This is anime-filler. In the manga, Marco SUCESSFULLY prevented Akainu from getting to Luffy.


----------



## Beast (May 12, 2019)

cry77 said:


> This is anime-filler. In the manga, Marco SUCESSFULLY prevented Akainu from getting to Luffy.


He successfully stop his attack, Marco and the rest of the commanders didn’t stop Akainu from advancing only slowed him down.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 12, 2019)

cry77 said:


> This is anime-filler. In the manga, Marco SUCESSFULLY prevented Akainu from getting to Luffy.





MasterBeast said:


> He successfully stop his attack, Marco and the rest of the commanders didn’t stop Akainu from advancing only slowed him down.


^
If Marco would have prevented Akainu from getting to Luffy, then we wouldn't have needed a thousand other characters to temporarily halt Akainu from getting to Luffy...


----------



## cry77 (May 12, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> ^
> If Marco would have prevented Akainu from getting to Luffy, then we wouldn't have needed a thousand other characters to temporarily halt Akainu from getting to Luffy...


Never said Marco=Akainu.

Just that he managed to stop Akainu at that particular point, as he stopped Kizaru from getting to WB. The push back was anime-filler.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 12, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Never said Marco=Akainu.
> 
> Just that he managed to stop Akainu at that particular point, as he stopped Kizaru from getting to WB. The push back was anime-filler.



Yes, but so did Crocodile momentarily, what's your point? Doesn't matter if it wasn't shown that he "pushed back" past Marco in the manga, we know for a fact he did.


----------



## Conxc (May 12, 2019)

Ray and Jozu’s feats are the same.

1. Both Kizaru and Aokiji were intercepted from their main goals.

2. Both Admirals were stalled, except in Jozu’s case, he completely turned his back on his opponent, and only then was he put down definitively.

3. Both Ray and Jozu proves to have Haki strong enough to draw blood from their respective top tier opponents

The only actual difference that I’ve seen someone say in these cases is that Rayleigh injured Kizaru straight up while Jozu caught Aokiji off guard. Sorry to say, that doesn’t matter much. Either way, like Ray, Jozu proved to have strong enough Haki to hurt and Admiral. Both Vista and Marco got the drop on Akainu and could only annoy him. With that said, since the element of surprise here gives a negligent “advantage” here, these situations are the same, yet no one claims Jozu exceeds the level of a FM?


----------



## cry77 (May 12, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Yes, but so did Crocodile momentarily, what's your point? Doesn't matter if it wasn't shown that he "pushed back" past Marco in the manga, we know for a fact he did.


Different scenario. Crocodile cut him in half (which should be easy as Akainu is a logia) whereas Marco DIRECTLY assaulted a CHARGING Akainu head on, and SUCESSFULLY stopped him in his tracks. 

Akainu>Marco for sure, but that was a solid feat for Marco, don't undersell it. After Marco intercepted, Akainu never again got close to Luffy, IIRC.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (May 12, 2019)

Rayleigh stomps


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 12, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Different scenario. Crocodile cut him in half (which should be easy as Akainu is a logia) whereas Marco DIRECTLY assaulted a CHARGING Akainu head on, and SUCESSFULLY stopped him in his tracks.
> 
> Akainu>Marco for sure, but that was a solid feat for Marco, don't undersell it. After Marco intercepted, Akainu never again got close to Luffy, IIRC.


How is it easy for a logia?

Meanwhile Marco has a constant regen fruit, if anything he's the most suited to tackle top tiers head on and act as a human shield.


----------



## cry77 (May 13, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> How is it easy for a logia?
> 
> Meanwhile Marco has a constant regen fruit, if anything he's the most suited to tackle top tiers head on and act as a human shield.


Magma isnt exactly durable. Akainu, had he wanted to, could easily block Crocodile through haki+base stats. 

Marco's regen is a bitch to deal with, but it doesnt increase Marco's momentum. And his momentum was powerful enough to stop a bloodlusted Akainu in his tracks. Acting as a human shield is one thing, using your own base stats to stop Akainu from reaching Luffy does not come with the phoenix fruit. Don't sleep on Marco, he has by far the best FM feats.


----------



## Beast (May 13, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Magma isnt exactly durable. Akainu, had he wanted to, could easily block Crocodile through haki+base stats.
> 
> Marco's regen is a bitch to deal with, but it doesnt increase Marco's momentum. And his momentum was powerful enough to stop a bloodlusted Akainu in his tracks. Acting as a human shield is one thing, using your own base stats to stop Akainu from reaching Luffy does not come with the phoenix fruit. Don't sleep on Marco, he has by far the best FM feats.


The Phoenix fruit is a zoan, so I’m sure it ends a lot to his stats. 
He was saying something about his blue flames not burning or something to that affect, I’m sure is a reference to Ace and Marcos flame abilities compared to Akainus magma.


----------



## Geralt-Singh (May 13, 2019)

Old Ray should mid diff him, high diff at VERY worst

Roger's partner / living legend of Roger's era  / praised by Garp himself / Luffy's teacher / the equivalent of old EoS Zoro >> BM's son


----------



## cry77 (May 13, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> The Phoenix fruit is a zoan, so I’m sure it ends a lot to his stats.
> He was saying something about his blue flames not burning or something to that affect, I’m sure is a reference to Ace and Marcos flame abilities compared to Akainus magma.


Even so, Zoan boosts require a strong base to be useful. 

His flames are irrelevant here. Igonore the magma and blue fire for a second, and what you see is two people physically clashing. A clash on "even" ground - no gravity advantage, no df advantage, just physical force complimented by their DF's.

Whatever healing Marco got from his fruit was likely cancelled out by the extra damage Akainu got from his, and the bottom line is once again Akainu simply failing to overpower Marco right then and there. He could do it for sure, but this was a solid top  FM feat. Better than anything King or Katakuri has shown.


----------



## Beast (May 13, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Even so, Zoan boosts require a strong base to be useful.
> 
> His flames are irrelevant here. Igonore the magma and blue fire for a second, and what you see is two people physically clashing. A clash on "even" ground - no gravity advantage, no df advantage, just physical force complimented by their DF's.
> 
> Whatever healing Marco got from his fruit was likely cancelled out by the extra damage Akainu got from his, and the bottom line is once again Akainu simply failing to overpower Marco right then and there. He could do it for sure, but this was a solid top  FM feat. Better than anything King or Katakuri has shown.


By far.. Marco always came across as top Yonko FM while only Ben seemed to better portrayal around his captain and now hype from the VCs. 

However his fruit can’t be dismissed as that’s what helped and will always help him in fights, taking no damage from attacks is one of the best abilities you could ask for. 

Ray however imo and I’m guessing a lot of people was never your average Yonko FM, he was Rogers FM and VC, he was never comparable to to the normal FM and is often held to be comparable to EoS Zoro (in his prime of course), now that is the realm of the top grass of top tiers Mihawk, Shanks and the like. I don’t and never really have looked at FMs as top tiers bar Ray and prime Zoro, now maybe Ben given his hype but I’m sure he is the weakest top tier and wouldn’t put him on equal footing to the Yonko and admirals but above his FM counter parts.


----------



## cry77 (May 13, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> By far.. Marco always came across as top Yonko FM while only Ben seemed to better portrayal around his captain and now hype from the VCs.
> 
> However his fruit can’t be dismissed as that’s what helped and will always help him in fights, taking no damage from attacks is one of the best abilities you could ask for.
> 
> Ray however imo and I’m guessing a lot of people was never your average Yonko FM, he was Rogers FM and VC, he was never comparable to to the normal FM and is often held to be comparable to EoS Zoro (in his prime of course), now that is the realm of the top grass of top tiers Mihawk, Shanks and the like. I don’t and never really have looked at FMs as top tiers bar Ray and prime Zoro, now maybe Ben given his hype but I’m sure he is the weakest top tier and wouldn’t put him on equal footing to the Yonko and admirals but above his FM counter parts.


His fruit cannot be dismissed, nor can Akainu's. Regardles, we all agree Akainu has top tier base stats, so it would take a physical beast to stop him. 

Marco's healing only keeps him alive, it doesnt actually "stop" the opposing force like Jozu does. Had Marco not been at least somewhat physically comparable to Akainu, I dont see why the latter couldnt just bust through him. Sure, Marco could likely heal afterwards even from this, but it wouldnt help Luffy. 

Marco not dying to Akainu is his fruit. Marco physically stopping a charging Akainu is NOT. The pheonix fruit offers no special force-enhancers (like I imagine magma-propulsion does) so the stopping power is really Marco's base stats + standard zoan boost


----------



## Beast (May 13, 2019)

cry77 said:


> His fruit cannot be dismissed, nor can Akainu's. Regardles, we all agree Akainu has top tier base stats, so it would take a physical beast to stop him.
> 
> Marco's healing only keeps him alive, it doesnt actually "stop" the opposing force like Jozu does. Had Marco not been at least somewhat physically comparable to Akainu, I dont see why the latter couldnt just bust through him. Sure, Marco could likely heal afterwards even from this, but it wouldnt help Luffy.
> 
> Marco not dying to Akainu is his fruit. Marco physically stopping a charging Akainu is NOT. The pheonix fruit offers no special force-enhancers (like I imagine magma-propulsion does) so the stopping power is really Marco's base stats + standard zoan boost


Marco took the full force of Kizarus lasers, as far as force goes he already had defence that could match or outdo Akainus punch. 

Marco is high higher tier with a mythical zoan, I don’t think anyone every doubt his physical stats as he doesn’t have anything else going for him other than the healing and flying.


----------



## barreltheif (May 13, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Ray and Jozu’s feats are the same.
> 1. Both Kizaru and Aokiji were intercepted from their main goals.
> 2. Both Admirals were stalled, except in Jozu’s case, he completely turned his back on his opponent, and only then was he put down definitively.
> 3. Both Ray and Jozu proves to have Haki strong enough to draw blood from their respective top tier opponents
> The only actual difference that I’ve seen someone say in these cases is that Rayleigh injured Kizaru straight up while Jozu caught Aokiji off guard. Sorry to say, that doesn’t matter much. Either way, like Ray, Jozu proved to have strong enough Haki to hurt and Admiral. Both Vista and Marco got the drop on Akainu and could only annoy him. With that said, since the element of surprise here gives a negligent “advantage” here, these situations are the same, yet no one claims Jozu exceeds the level of a FM?



This is like saying that Lucci and Hannyabal have the same feats because they both stalled Luffy.

Kizaru couldn't defeat Rayleigh, or even land a hit on him at all, and he eventually retreated to Marineford after fighting Rayleigh for several chapters.
Jozu stalled Aokiji off panel for one chapter, but fucked up, turned around mid-fight, and got one shot.


----------



## Conxc (May 13, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> This is like saying that Lucci and Hannyabal have the same feats because they both stalled Luffy.
> 
> Kizaru couldn't defeat Rayleigh, or even land a hit on him at all, and he eventually retreated to Marineford after fighting Rayleigh for several chapters.
> Jozu stalled Aokiji off panel for one chapter, but fucked up, turned around mid-fight, and got one shot.


If you lack reading comprehension, sure. I don’t even think o need to explain how different those situations are. Anyway,

It’s fraudulent to say that Kizaru *couldn’t *defeat him when we know that Kizaru is stronger. Unless you honestly believe Ray > Kizaru. You’re making it seem like Kizaru was ran out of SA when that’s so far from the truth.

Jozu not only stalled Aokiji, but he managed to injure him, which, as mischief as y’all want to, is a feat that you can’t sweep under the rug. He harmed him same as Ray harmed Kizaru. Regarding getting one shot, not many people are going to survive a contact freeze from Aokiji directly. He was vulnerable enough to allow that. Aokiji’s ability has that kind of nature to it. It’s like if Kuma managed to use his BFR on, well, anyone. Hax is hax. Regardless, Jozu only went down after he was completely distracted...however, I know better than to assume that Aokiji *couldn’t *beat him if he were fighting him in a drawn out battle.


----------



## barreltheif (May 13, 2019)

Conxc said:


> If you lack reading comprehension, sure. I don’t even think o need to explain how different those situations are. Anyway,
> It’s fraudulent to say that Kizaru *couldn’t *defeat him when we know that Kizaru is stronger. Unless you honestly believe Ray > Kizaru. You’re making it seem like Kizaru was ran out of SA when that’s so far from the truth.
> Jozu not only stalled Aokiji, but he managed to injure him, which, as mischief as y’all want to, is a feat that you can’t sweep under the rug. He harmed him same as Ray harmed Kizaru. Regarding getting one shot, not many people are going to survive a contact freeze from Aokiji directly. He was vulnerable enough to allow that. Aokiji’s ability has that kind of nature to it. It’s like if Kuma managed to use his BFR on, well, anyone. Hax is hax. Regardless, Jozu only went down after he was completely distracted...however, I know better than to assume that Aokiji *couldn’t *beat him if he were fighting him in a drawn out battle.



Use whatever wording you prefer. Kizaru *did not manage* to defeat Rayleigh in their fight (or injure him at all). Instead, he chose to withdraw to Marineford. Yes, Rayleigh successfully fought him off. That doesn't mean that Kizaru wouldn't be able to defeat Rayleigh if he were willing to go all out. But it strongly suggests that Rayleigh is close to Kizaru's level.

Jozu can punch Aokiji and do very minor damage. Or at least, he can while Aokiji is distracted by Whitebeard. That is a feat for Jozu. It is somewhat impressive. It doesn't put Jozu anywhere near admiral level.

Rayleigh's feat that puts him well above Jozu is not simply scratching Kizaru. It's fighting off Kizaru for several chapters - until Kizaru eventually withdrew to Marineford - and then coming out unscathed. Rather than fighting him off panel for a chapter and then fucking up and getting one shot and losing an arm.


----------



## Conxc (May 13, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> Use whatever wording you prefer. Kizaru *did not manage* to defeat Rayleigh in their fight (or injure him at all). Instead, he chose to withdraw to Marineford. Yes, Rayleigh successfully fought him off. That doesn't mean that Kizaru wouldn't be able to defeat Rayleigh if he were willing to go all out. But it strongly suggests that Rayleigh is close to Kizaru's level.
> 
> Jozu can punch Aokiji and do very minor damage. Or at least, he can while Aokiji is distracted by Whitebeard. That is a feat for Jozu. It is somewhat impressive. It doesn't put Jozu anywhere near admiral level.
> 
> Rayleigh's feat that puts him well above Jozu is not simply scratching Kizaru. It's fighting off Kizaru for several chapters - until Kizaru eventually withdrew to Marineford - and then coming out unscathed. Rather than fighting him off panel for a chapter and then fucking up and getting one shot and losing an arm.


So again, it’s fraudulent to say that Kizaru *could not *defeat him, which would imply ray’s superiority to Kizaru, which we know isn’t the case. Also, I think I understand the logic here: Ray hits Kizaru, holds him off = Ray’s bear Admiral level. Jozu hits Aokji, holds him off = Jozu isn’t near Admiral level. And all of this because...you said so. Copy. 

No matter what you say, the feat of injuring a top tier is huge, off-guard or not. Marco managed to catch Aokiji off guard as well. Also managed to land a blow on Kizaru. He didn’t successfully injure either of them. Then there’s the time when Marco and Vista both got the drop on Sakazuki, and still could only manage to annoy him. Jozu’s feat is not negligible in the slightest.

“Several chapters” doesn’t equate to a substantial amount more time in verse. There can be one chapter that covers days, or 10 chapters that covers what might have happened for 10 minutes in verse. “Several chapters” is a poor excuse, as in those chapters, the same frame of time was happening. We aren’t talking hours, days or anything.


----------



## CaptainCommander (May 14, 2019)

Lol its funny reading the last few posts about whether Ray is Admiral level or not when Kizaru was an unknown until his battle with Ray. He pretty much set the precedent for how strong they should be.


----------



## Conxc (May 14, 2019)

Irrelevant news.


----------



## Dunno (May 14, 2019)

Conxc said:


> If you lack reading comprehension, sure. I don’t even think o need to explain how different those situations are. Anyway,
> 
> It’s fraudulent to say that Kizaru *couldn’t *defeat him when we know that Kizaru is stronger. Unless you honestly believe Ray > Kizaru. You’re making it seem like Kizaru was ran out of SA when that’s so far from the truth.
> 
> Jozu not only stalled Aokiji, but he managed to injure him, which, as mischief as y’all want to, is a feat that you can’t sweep under the rug. He harmed him same as Ray harmed Kizaru. Regarding getting one shot, not many people are going to survive a contact freeze from Aokiji directly. He was vulnerable enough to allow that. Aokiji’s ability has that kind of nature to it. It’s like if Kuma managed to use his BFR on, well, anyone. Hax is hax. Regardless, Jozu only went down after he was completely distracted...however, I know better than to assume that Aokiji *couldn’t *beat him if he were fighting him in a drawn out battle.


How do we *know *that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh? He didn't manage to hurt Rayleigh, but was instead hurt himself in their clash. And the implication of Rayleigh managing to hurt Kizaru is huge. It doesn't only mean that he has the Haki to do so, which you would like to believe, but it does indicate superiority. Just like when Sabo fought Fujitora and came out looking all ragged, the damage itself isn't significant, but the fact that only one combatant is injured is.


----------



## Beast (May 14, 2019)

How are you going to compare to feats but exclude the most prominent difference?


----------



## cry77 (May 14, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> Marco took the full force of Kizarus lasers, as far as force goes he already had defence that could match or outdo Akainus punch.
> 
> Marco is high higher tier with a mythical zoan, I don’t think anyone every doubt his physical stats as he doesn’t have anything else going for him other than the healing and flying.


The Kizaru case is different. His lasers are primarily piercing-based, and the explosions doesnt seem to have too much concussive force behind them. They seem more like incinerating heat-domes rather than actual explosions. 

And once again, it's not really impressive for Marco to TAKE the full force of an admiral's attack. That's his entire thing, he heals from everything (that we know of).

The impressive thing is him not getting pushed back by a bloodlusted charging Akainu.


----------



## Beast (May 14, 2019)

cry77 said:


> The Kizaru case is different. His lasers are primarily piercing-based, and the explosions doesnt seem to have too much concussive force behind them. They seem more like incinerating heat-domes rather than actual explosions.
> 
> And once again, it's not really impressive for Marco to TAKE the full force of an admiral's attack. That's his entire thing, he heals from everything (that we know of).
> 
> The impressive thing is him not getting pushed back by a bloodlusted charging Akainu.


He did get pushed back, he was just able to stop that attack... Akainu never stopped his charge until Shanks came along and Sengoku ended the war.

But I see where you’re getting at, his physical are definitely up there with the top tiers, strength, endurance (took a point blank hit from Garp hakied up), speed and the like but the same could be said for a lot of close combat fighters such as Jozu, lucky and even Ray himself, who needs future sight to even match Kizaru as proclaimed by the recent VCs.

Yes Marco and Jozu have the physical stats to keep up with top tiers and I’m sure most FM levelled fighters can but Ray is a top tier and not sure why anybody doubts it while the normal Yonko FM are a tier below given how Luffy was treated and current luffy is more than likely equal to or stronger than Kata, but not Ray as per mentioned by luffy himself.


----------



## cry77 (May 14, 2019)

MasterBeast said:


> He did get pushed back, he was just able to stop that attack... Akainu never stopped his charge until Shanks came along and Sengoku ended the war.
> 
> But I see where you’re getting at, his physical are definitely up there with the top tiers, strength, endurance (took a point blank hit from Garp hakied up), speed and the like but the same could be said for a lot of close combat fighters such as Jozu, lucky and even Ray himself, who needs future sight to even match Kizaru as proclaimed by the recent VCs.
> 
> Yes Marco and Jozu have the physical stats to keep up with top tiers and I’m sure most FM levelled fighters can but Ray is a top tier and not sure why anybody doubts it while the normal Yonko FM are a tier below given how Luffy was treated and current luffy is more than likely equal to or stronger than Kata, but not Ray as per mentioned by luffy himself.


Aside from your first paragraph, I agree. 

However, when did we see Marco being pushed back? As in ACTUALLY back? Not just a few centimeters of lost ground. And no, Akainu might still have gone AFTER Luffy, but the second Marco intervened Akainu NEVER again got an actual chance to take out Luffy. 

Marco succeeded in his objective: Luffy is still alive.
Akainu failed in his objevtive: Luffy is still alive.


----------



## Dunno (May 14, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Aside from your first paragraph, I agree.
> 
> However, when did we see Marco being pushed back? As in ACTUALLY back? Not just a few centimeters of lost ground. And no, Akainu might still have gone AFTER Luffy, but the second Marco intervened Akainu NEVER again got an actual chance to take out Luffy.
> 
> ...


That's probably the easiest objective imaginable though.


----------



## Beast (May 14, 2019)

cry77 said:


> Marco succeeded in his objective: Luffy is still alive.
> Akainu failed in his objevtive: Luffy is still alive.


thats one way to look at it.


----------



## Conxc (May 14, 2019)

Dunno said:


> How do we *know *that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh? He didn't manage to hurt Rayleigh, but was instead hurt himself in their clash. And the implication of Rayleigh managing to hurt Kizaru is huge. It doesn't only mean that he has the Haki to do so, which you would like to believe, but it does indicate superiority. Just like when Sabo fought Fujitora and came out looking all ragged, the damage itself isn't significant, but the fact that only one combatant is injured is.


Because Kizaru is a top 10 character in this verse by virtue of being an Admiral. We have no reason to believe that Rayleigh is stronger. If we assume that, then we *must *do the same for Jozu to not be hypocritical. Why? Because up until Jozu completely turned his back on Aokiji, the only fighter that was injured was Aokiji. Unlike Aokiji’s DF, he bypasses durability, Haki to freeze his opponents in contact. Jozu powered his way through Aokiji’s defenses and that’s why him being caught off-guard and Jozu being caught off-guard are not the same thing. Kizaru got a small cut on the cheek. Knowing what we know now about top tiers, that’s a hella impressive feat...same as Jozu vs Aokiji, however, we can’t act like they costed the Admirals limbs. We’ve seen how the end of a fight between top tiers look through Akainu vs Aokiji. A cut on the cheek is a joke in a fight that level. Also, trying to compare several blemishes that Sabo sustained to this while we know for a fact Fuji was toying with him to this is fraudulent. Two completely different situations.


----------



## cry77 (May 14, 2019)

Dunno said:


> That's probably the easiest objective imaginable though.


From an in-verse perspective it is very impressive against Akainu. 

But I agree of course. Nevertheless, Oda could have had Akainu mow past Marco, hit Luffy again and have plot save him anyways. But he chose to actively have Marco stop Akainu in his tracks.


----------



## barreltheif (May 14, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Because Kizaru is a top 10 character in this verse by virtue of being an Admiral. We have no reason to believe that Rayleigh is stronger. If we assume that, then we *must *do the same for Jozu to not be hypocritical. Why? Because up until Jozu completely turned his back on Aokiji, the only fighter that was injured was Aokiji. Unlike Aokiji’s DF, he bypasses durability, Haki to freeze his opponents in contact. Jozu powered his way through Aokiji’s defenses and that’s why him being caught off-guard and Jozu being caught off-guard are not the same thing. Kizaru got a small cut on the cheek. Knowing what we know now about top tiers, that’s a hella impressive feat...same as Jozu vs Aokiji, however, we can’t act like they costed the Admirals limbs. We’ve seen how the end of a fight between top tiers look through Akainu vs Aokiji. A cut on the cheek is a joke in a fight that level. Also, trying to compare several blemishes that Sabo sustained to this while we know for a fact Fuji was toying with him to this is fraudulent. Two completely different situations.



"Rayleigh fought off Kizaru equally until Kizaru eventually withdrew to Marineford. That's exactly the same as Jozu, who fought Aokiji, and didn't lose, until he lost. That's equally impressive because Aokiji's DF is hax and Jozu turned around during the fight. Therefore Rayleigh isn't admiral level."​


----------



## Conxc (May 14, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> "Rayleigh fought off Kizaru equally until Kizaru eventually withdrew to Marineford. That's exactly the same as Jozu, who fought Aokiji, and didn't lose, until he lost. That's equally impressive because Aokiji's DF is hax and Jozu turned around during the fight. Therefore Rayleigh isn't admiral level."​


All you’ve proven here is that you can’t read...


----------



## Dunno (May 14, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Because Kizaru is a top 10 character in this verse by virtue of being an Admiral. We have no reason to believe that Rayleigh is stronger. If we assume that, then we *must *do the same for Jozu to not be hypocritical. Why? Because up until Jozu completely turned his back on Aokiji, the only fighter that was injured was Aokiji. Unlike Aokiji’s DF, he bypasses durability, Haki to freeze his opponents in contact. Jozu powered his way through Aokiji’s defenses and that’s why him being caught off-guard and Jozu being caught off-guard are not the same thing. Kizaru got a small cut on the cheek. Knowing what we know now about top tiers, that’s a hella impressive feat...same as Jozu vs Aokiji, however, we can’t act like they costed the Admirals limbs. We’ve seen how the end of a fight between top tiers look through Akainu vs Aokiji. A cut on the cheek is a joke in a fight that level. Also, trying to compare several blemishes that Sabo sustained to this while we know for a fact Fuji was toying with him to this is fraudulent. Two completely different situations.


Why would we assume anything? We look at the feats and the portrayal, and if Rayleigh has better feats and portrayal than Kizaru, then he is likely stronger. The feats show us that Rayleigh is slightly more skilled but that Kizaru has slightly better stamina. This indicates approximate equality. Kizaru get the general Admiral portrayal as a part of the strongest force in the marines, but Rayleigh gets some hype as a legend of Whitebeard's calibre whom the marines couldn't afford to deal with, and also as the haki guru of One Piece. We don't make any assumption, neither that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh, nor vice verse.


----------



## Conxc (May 14, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Why would we assume anything? We look at the feats and the portrayal, and if Rayleigh has better feats and portrayal than Kizaru, then he is likely stronger. The feats show us that Rayleigh is slightly more skilled but that Kizaru has slightly better stamina. This indicates approximate equality. Kizaru get the general Admiral portrayal as a part of the strongest force in the marines, but Rayleigh gets some hype as a legend of Whitebeard's calibre whom the marines couldn't afford to deal with, and also as the haki guru of One Piece. We don't make any assumption, neither that Kizaru is stronger than Rayleigh, nor vice verse.


Hype of being scaled to *current *top 10 strongest in the verse >>> being a legend in the past. His legacy, name alone and who he was will always follow him. By name, he will always be a legend. However, this isn’t concrete to claim that he was still a fighter of WBs caliber. Definitely not as solid as the case made for Kizaru just by virtue of his title. MF showed that YC1 characters have the ability to slightly harm a top tier and can hold them off for a bit. I don’t see why people think that Ray being on that level is so terrible, especially when everything shown scales him closer to that level than being on the level of top tiers. We’ve seen what top tiers can do to each other via WB vs Akainu, and Akainu vs Aokiji (guys that Kizaru scales to). We’ve also seen what top YC level opponents do to top tiers...which in Ray and Jozu’s case is a cut on the cheek and a busted lip, or in Marco and Vista’s case...nothing.

Kizaru > Rayleigh, just as he is > than any YC level opponent.

Edit: I’ve shown the comparison between Ray and Jozu. The only difference that can truly be stated here is the off-guard bs on-guard argument... which is null thanks to Akainu shrugging off direct attacks from Marco and Vista even though they caught him off-guard. Off-guard/on-guard doesn’t matter because if your Haki isn’t strong enough to hurt them in the first place, you won’t, bottom line. That’s why *both *those feats for Ray and Jozu are huge.


----------



## CaptainCommander (May 14, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Because Kizaru is a top 10 character in this verse by virtue of being an Admiral.  . . .


 I wonder how much rep this one's getting from the admiral crew for these posts . . . .


----------



## Conxc (May 14, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> I wonder how much rep this one's getting from the admiral crew for these posts . . . .


Whether you think Yonkou are stronger than Admirals or not, I don’t see how you can deny that Admirals are still within the top 10.


----------



## Duhul10 (May 15, 2019)

I certainly do not see Ray losing to Parasite. Not in a million years.


----------



## Dunno (May 15, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Whether you think Yonkou are stronger than Admirals or not, I don’t see how you can deny that Admirals are still within the top 10.


Even if you exclude Garp and Rayleigh because you think they are too old, you still have 4 Yonkou, 3 Admirals, Mihawk, Dragon, Kuzan, Akainu and Im competing for the spots. I don't see how you can claim that all Admirals being top 10 is certain.


----------



## Conxc (May 15, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Even if you exclude Garp and Rayleigh because you think they are too old, you still have 4 Yonkou, 3 Admirals, Mihawk, Dragon, Kuzan, Akainu and Im competing for the spots. I don't see how you can claim that all Admirals being top 10 is certain.


That’s an entire different argument. Knowing that, you should realize that the pickings are even slimmer for Rayleigh being as strong as you believe he is.


----------



## Santoryu (May 15, 2019)

rayleigh low diffs as per authorial intent. his grand presence and SP is that of the dark king and second in command only to Roger. He is an older version of future zoro.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Dunno (May 15, 2019)

Conxc said:


> That’s an entire different argument. Knowing that, you should realize that the pickings are even slimmer for Rayleigh being as strong as you believe he is.


It is not a different argument. If all Admirals are top 10, then 2 other people from that list in addition to Garp and Rayleigh need to go. It's that simple. You could say that all Admirals are guaranteed to be top 15 and I would agree. 

Why would this have anything to do with Rayleigh? I haven't said that he's top 10. I've just said that he's about as strong as Kizaru and the other Admirals.


----------



## Conxc (May 15, 2019)

Dunno said:


> It is not a different argument. If all Admirals are top 10, then 2 other people from that list in addition to Garp and Rayleigh need to go. It's that simple. You could say that all Admirals are guaranteed to be top 15 and I would agree.
> 
> Why would this have anything to do with Rayleigh? I haven't said that he's top 10. I've just said that he's about as strong as Kizaru and the other Admirals.


Well, the 4 Yonkou, Akainu and by scaling, Kuzan are all solidified top 10. Mihawk as well. That’s 7 already. The current 3 Admirals can’t be weaker than Yonkou/Admiral level and still be considered one of the World Powers, so that’s 10. Dragon and Im levels are pure speculation. Dragon’s title doesn’t seem to revolve around strength (if it did how was he not WSM) and Im is a complete mystery.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (May 16, 2019)

Garp > Kizaru = Rayleigh according to the one and only me


----------



## Dunno (May 16, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Well, the 4 Yonkou, Akainu and by scaling, Kuzan are all solidified top 10. Mihawk as well. That’s 7 already. The current 3 Admirals can’t be weaker than Yonkou/Admiral level and still be considered one of the World Powers, so that’s 10. Dragon and Im levels are pure speculation. Dragon’s title doesn’t seem to revolve around strength (if it did how was he not WSM) and Im is a complete mystery.


It's possible that Dragon and Im are weaker than the weakest Admirals and Yonkou, but I wouldn't bet on it. In any case, it's not a guarantee. 



xmysticgohanx said:


> Garp > Kizaru = Rayleigh according to the one and only me


Seems reasonable.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Santoryu (May 16, 2019)

Garp is a parallel to Smoker. He is not equal to Roger in the literal sense.


----------



## Owl (May 16, 2019)

-Rayleigh swam from the freaking Grand line all the way to the calm belt, Katakuri can't even swim
-Rayleigh made a healthy Kizaru run in fear, Katakuri couldn't even beat a severely injured Luffy
-Rayleigh has the best haki use that we've seen so far, Katakuri can only half ass see the future

Rayleigh would make Katakuri his girlfriend and clean the cobwebs off his wrinkly peen.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Garp is a parallel to Smoker. He is not equal to Roger in the literal sense.



No. Not only was any chance of Smoker being Garp's parallel killed off during Punk Hazard when he was outclassed by pretty much everyone relevant, Garp was a legend prior to him chasing Roger. Smoker is at best a somewhat notable marine.


----------



## Santoryu (May 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> No. Not only was any chance of Smoker being Garp's parallel killed off during Punk Hazard when he was outclassed by pretty much everyone relevant, Garp was a legend prior to him chasing Roger. Smoker is at best a somewhat notable marine.



Smoker losing to opponents does not discredit the parallel argument. Garp can be a marine legend and still have had losses in his career. Luffy has lost numerous times and he's still going to go down as the Pirate King.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 16, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Smoker losing to opponents does not discredit the parallel argument. Garp can be a marine legend and still have had losses in his career. Luffy has lost numerous times and he's still going to go down as the Pirate King.


Its not just losses or wins, Garp was already soon to be or already a legend for being involved in fighting the greatest threat pre Roger, the Rox pirates, when he was Smoker's age.

Smoker has done nothing notable as a marine besides getting credit for Luffy's accomplishments. Smoker was beat around by the *first mate* of a pirate* who's not that important in the grand scheme of things*, while Garp was fighting off the greatest pirate threat pre-Roger. Can you not see how clearly different their portrayals are?


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 16, 2019)

Also bringing in Luffy as a comparison point is stupid considering the people he _has beaten_. Smoker has not beaten anyone relevant or accomplished anything big and we're so far into the story at this point.


----------



## Dunno (May 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> Its not just losses or wins, Garp was already soon to be or already a legend for being involved in fighting the greatest threat pre Roger, the Rox pirates, when he was Smoker's age.
> 
> Smoker has done nothing notable as a marine besides getting credit for Luffy's accomplishments. Smoker was beat around by the *first mate* of a pirate* who's not that important in the grand scheme of things*, while Garp was fighting off the greatest pirate threat pre-Roger. Can you not see how clearly different their portrayals are?


Luffy was beaten and captured by Caesar, but we all know he's going to become PK. You guys are all sleeping on Smoker, who will be the strongest marine EoS.



Vivo Diez said:


> Also bringing in Luffy as a comparison point is stupid considering the people he _has beaten_. Smoker has not beaten anyone relevant or accomplished anything big and we're so far into the story at this point.


He has captured Luffy, the future PK.


----------



## Vivo Diez (May 16, 2019)

Dunno said:


> Luffy was beaten and captured by Caesar





Dunno said:


> He has captured Luffy



I've never seen anyone beat their own point this fast.


----------



## Dunno (May 16, 2019)

Vivo Diez said:


> I've never seen anyone beat their own point this fast.


It seems that you misunderstood your own post. Luffy is relevant, whether or not he is hard to capture.


----------



## Conxc (May 16, 2019)

Owl said:


> -Rayleigh swam from the freaking Grand line all the way to the calm belt, Katakuri can't even swim


GG to the thread. Time for the close, mods.


----------



## A Optimistic (May 16, 2019)

Rayleigh wins with low difficulty.

Garp compared Rayleigh to Whitebeard by claiming that the Marines shouldn't fight two legends at the same time, and Rayleigh was able to fight equally against Kizaru.

Meanwhile Katakuri got his ass kicked by someone who's struggling to learn past the basics of haki.

The Katakuri overestimation on this website is disgusting.


----------



## A Optimistic (May 16, 2019)

Conxc said:


> GG to the thread. Time for the close, mods.



Stop back seat moderating, it's cringe.


----------



## Conxc (May 16, 2019)

man. Flashback King Rayleigh must actually be the *real *5th Yonkou for some of these takes...

@A Optimistic Ah, shutup. Learn sarcasm.


----------



## barreltheif (May 17, 2019)

Conxc said:


> man. Flashback King Rayleigh must actually be the *real *5th Yonkou for some of these takes...
> 
> @A Optimistic Ah, shutup. Learn sarcasm.



I'm not sure if you have Luffy in mind, but it's pretty much uncontroversial that Rayleigh is stronger than Luffy. Luffy is still struggling just to comprehend Rayleigh's basic haki lessons.


----------



## Conxc (May 17, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I'm not sure if you have Luffy in mind, but it's pretty much uncontroversial that Rayleigh is stronger than Luffy. Luffy is still struggling just to comprehend Rayleigh's basic haki lessons.


Nah, wasn’t thinking about Luffy. It’s just with some of these piping hot takes, Rayleigh must actually be the 5th Yonkou, like he’d give any Yonkou a run for their money. Little jab at that camp.

Regarding Luffy, he’s a fraudulent YFM character IMO. A nice amount of shenanigans was Katakuri with buying him time to get back into G4.


----------



## barreltheif (May 17, 2019)

Conxc said:


> Nah, wasn’t thinking about Luffy. It’s just with some of these piping hot takes, Rayleigh must actually be the 5th Yonkou, like he’d give any Yonkou a run for their money. Little jab at that camp.
> Regarding Luffy, he’s a fraudulent YFM character IMO. A nice amount of shenanigans was Katakuri with buying him time to get back into G4.



I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. Rayleigh is in the same situation as Mihawk. They are top tier characters who are probably strong enough to be emperors (Rayleigh is a bit more iffy), but they have no interest in it, and they don't even have crews.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Conxc (May 17, 2019)

barreltheif said:


> I'm not sure what your point is supposed to be. Rayleigh is in the same situation as Mihawk. They are top tier characters who are probably strong enough to be emperors (Rayleigh is a bit more iffy), but they have no interest in it, and they don't even have crews.


My point is he’s not as strong as people want him to be as nothing suggests he is, but here we are. He isn’t in the same boat as Mihawk, because Mihawk has undesputable hype that puts him in the top 10. Rayleigh being stronger than YFM level is pure fanfic, as nothing shows or implies.


----------



## CaptainCommander (May 18, 2019)

Conxc said:


> My point is he’s not as strong as people want him to be as nothing suggests he is, but here we are. He is. It in the same boat as Mihawk, because Mihawk has undesirable hype that puts him in the top 10. Admirals being stronger than YFM level is pure fanfic, as nothing shows or implies.



Fixed for you.


----------



## Conxc (May 18, 2019)

CaptainCommander said:


> Fixed for you.


Nah, but thanks for making me re-read my post. Hella typos.


----------



## xmysticgohanx (May 19, 2019)

Rayleigh is a top tier


----------



## Conxc (May 19, 2019)

So are Jozu and Vista then.


----------



## TheWiggian (Jun 2, 2019)

Rayleigh mid diffs. I would've said high diff before Wano but the Haki hype/portrayal and the importance of this willpower elevates Ray a whole step higher.

Rays feats exceed the ones of common YFM as shown so far.

His hype and portrayal is on the level of the YFM's leaders aka the Yonkous.

Yea no FM so far been shown to be as impressive as him or close to it.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Conxc (Jun 2, 2019)

Marco, Jozu, Vista are yawning at that take.


----------



## Reddot4 (Jun 5, 2019)

Rayleigh was holding his own against an admiral, a position way higher than yc1. rayleigh mid-diffs


----------



## Edogawa (Jun 5, 2019)

-Author portrayed Rayleigh on the same caliber as the Admirals and Yonkos.

-Katakuri is >= Gear 4 Luffy.

We've seen the huge power gap between G4 Luffy vs Kaido or Big Mom, which lead to a literal one-shot. Rayleigh would give Katakuri the same treatment Big Mom gave to G4 Luffy.


----------



## Izaya X (Jun 6, 2019)

Rayleigh High diffs Katakuri,


----------



## Fel1x (Jun 6, 2019)

Edogawa said:


> -Author portrayed Rayleigh on the same caliber as the Admirals and Yonkos.
> 
> -Katakuri is >= Gear 4 Luffy.
> 
> We've seen the huge power gap between G4 Luffy vs Kaido or Big Mom, which lead to a literal one-shot. Rayleigh would give Katakuri the same treatment Big Mom gave to G4 Luffy.


nah. Current Rayleigh is probably a little above Admiral level. so he won't oneshot any YC guy. proved by MF


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 10, 2019)

Rayleigh wins


----------



## Goodboy (Jun 11, 2019)

Katakuri should be able to win extreme diff


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 17, 2019)

Rayleigh mid diffs. Stomp thread, next question

Yonko commanders are the most overrated trash in One Piece. Old and Rusty Rayleigh is comparable to Big Mom, the fuck is Katakuri gonna do? Rayleigh low end mid diffs.


----------



## NooksBrigade (Jun 17, 2019)

White Beard's Right Hand: Marco
Roger's Right Hand: Rayleigh

Roger Pirate'd main foe?: White Beard Pirates


Conclusion:



Shishio ishere said:


> Yonko commanders are the most overrated trash in One Piece... Rayleigh low end mid diffs.


----------



## Corax (Jun 17, 2019)

25 years ago Marco was 20. I doubt that he was FM at that time. But anyway PK>any yonko so it is quite logical that his FM should be>any FM. And by feats old Ray sliced Kizaru's cheek,Marco failed to even scratch him.


----------



## Aaron Tōshiro (Jun 17, 2019)

Old Rayleigh high diffs...

His haki is insane and not forget his lethality but Kaatakuri with his tricky ability+FS can give him hard time imho

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Trueno (Jun 17, 2019)

Rayleigh-dan mid diffs Katakuri.

Everyone forgets that it's very much flat out stated that Luffy defeated Katakuri in his resolve to win, but not physically. Both of them could have continued, but Katakuri fell on purpose.

Also, Katakuri hasn't been in a serious-fight for a long time. Now that he's had an all out fight with Luffy he won't be as tender or rusty against a high level opponent, but he will still be no match for the Dark King.


----------



## Guan Yu (Jun 17, 2019)

Old Rayleigh mid diff.

He has speed that enough to hold off Kizaru.

Supposedly also have a better CoA considering his epithet as the Dark King.


----------



## Gotenks92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Rayleigh extreme-high diff

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hades92 (Jun 17, 2019)

Rayleigh.....even though he is old, he is still a top tier..and Katakuri is a top high tier

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gohara (Jun 18, 2019)

Lord Katakuri wins that match up with high to extremely high difficulty


----------



## Santoryu (Jun 18, 2019)

Reddot4 said:


> Rayleigh was holding his own against an admiral, a position way higher than yc1. rayleigh mid-diffs




This was a pension-aged, diabetes ridden, cancer-potential, though not confirmed, and downright elderly rayleigh holding off kizaru light beam man.

Prime Rayleigh is quantified to be at least 2.7 times stronger through adroit movements and will D King.


----------



## Shishio ishere (Jun 19, 2019)

Take away Rayleighs sword, Rayleigh still beats this trashcan with Haki blasts!


----------



## Red Admiral (Jun 23, 2019)

it's a mid diff for Dark King


----------

