# Shadow Battle Crab (Babylon 5) vs Enterprise-E (Star Trek)



## Catalyst75 (Jul 8, 2012)

I once tried a Victory-class Destroyer vs Imperial Star Destroyer thread, but that did not work out at all, so I opted for a different approach.

The primary vessel of the Shadows up against the latest incarnation of the Enterprise in the mainstream Star Trek Universe.


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## dream (Jul 8, 2012)

What's the damage output of the Enterprise-E?  A Shadow Battle Crab seemed to have survived a 500 megaton nuke without any damage that we could see.  Also, does the Enterprise-E have any telepaths that could take out the pilot of the battle crab?


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 8, 2012)

I do not know about the Phaser yields of the Enterprise-E, but I do know that the photon torpedoes at least one type of Photon torpedo contains 1.5 kg of antimatter inside it, and there was a statement in Voyager that indicates that a 25 Isoton yield Photon Torpedo could destroy an entire city within seconds.

Aside from that, Star Trek tends to be sketchy on the subject of its destructive output.  You'd have to bring in a specialist to  get the necessary information, and I'm not that specialist.

EDIT: 

Here is the Outskirts Battledome analysis on the Enterprise-E:

Shingeki No Kyojin Chapter 35

To be expected.  According to OBD, the Enterprise-E has multi-City level destructive capacity, but yields on weapons are not given.


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## dream (Jul 8, 2012)

With that kind of firepower the Battle Crab isn't surviving this fight it seems.  The Enterprise-E can take a couple of hits from the Battle Crab's laser as one calc low-balled it to being around 70+ megatons.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 9, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> With that kind of firepower the Battle Crab isn't surviving this fight it seems.  The Enterprise-E can take a couple of hits from the Battle Crab's laser as one calc low-balled it to being around 70+ megatons.









These calculations are from B5Tech.  The Battle Crab has been shown to take a 500 Megaton blast to the face and come out unscathed.

When a group of Battle Crabs attacked a Narn colony at one point, the script that was written by JMS stated that the Battle Crab Death Ray bore right through the mantle, causing a plume of lava to erupt on the planet surface where the colony used to be.

As shown in the links, the energy output of the Shadow Death Ray is *no less* than 1,000,000 Terajoules, or around 250 Megatons in a one second burst.

The maneuverability and acceleration of the Shadow Battle Crab is also considerable.



Acceleration is very important in space combat, and the Shadow Battle Crab and Whitestar were calculated at around 7,000 km/s^2, based on the distance between Ganymede and Jupiter being crossed in 38 seconds.


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## Wan (Jul 9, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> What's the damage output of the Enterprise-E?  A Shadow Battle Crab seemed to have survived a 500 megaton nuke without any damage that we could see.  Also, does the Enterprise-E have any telepaths that could take out the pilot of the battle crab?



500 megaton nukes actually destroyed a battlecrab (others survived them though, so it's right on the line).


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 9, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> I do know that the photon torpedoes at least one type of Photon torpedo contains 1.5 kg of antimatter inside it, and there was a statement in Voyager that indicates that a 25 Isoton yield Photon Torpedo could destroy an entire city within seconds.



To put that 1.5kg of anti-matter into perspective:

A thimbleful of anti-matter could destroy _all_ of New York city. For those of you unacquainted with thimbles, here's what a thimble is:



And here's how big it is to say...a human finger:


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## dream (Jul 9, 2012)

Oman said:


> 500 megaton nukes actually destroyed a battlecrab (others survived them though, so it's right on the line).



Do you know when that happens?  The Battle of Corianna VI?


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 9, 2012)

Oman said:


> 500 megaton nukes actually destroyed a battlecrab (others survived them though, so it's right on the line).



If it was blown up, it would not have been shown turning to the left when it exploded.

The Shadows are one of the First Ones in Babylon 5 for a reason.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jul 9, 2012)

1.5 kg of antimatter annihilating with 1.5 kg of matter = 3 kg mass converted into energy = ~64.5 Megatons


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 9, 2012)

That is not enough to kill a Battle Crab.  It might blow a spine off, but not kill it.


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## Wan (Jul 9, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> Do you know when that happens?  The Battle of Corianna VI?



I believe that's the one.



Catalyst75 said:


> If it was blown up, it would not have been shown turning to the left when it exploded.
> 
> The Shadows are one of the First Ones in Babylon 5 for a reason.



Like I said, several survived the blasts, but at least one was shown to be destroyed.



Fluttershy said:


> 1.5 kg of antimatter annihilating with 1.5 kg of matter = 3 kg mass converted into energy = ~64.5 Megatons



Yeah, that's the generally assumed yield of Trek photon torpedoes.  There are examples of higher and lower yields, though.



> That is not enough to kill a Battle Crab. It might blow a spine off, but not kill it.



Well, yeah.  Good thing the Ent-E has plenty of them then, and more powerful torpedoes called quantum torpedoes.


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## dream (Jul 9, 2012)

Oman said:


> I believe that's the one.
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, several survived the blasts, but at least one was shown to be destroyed.



I saw a clip of the battle and I didn't really see a Battle Crab being destroyed by one of those nukes.  

[YOUTUBE]IIpg-N_Pp-g[/YOUTUBE]

There is one ship that looks like it was destroyed at 0:32 but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The ship mostly seems fine though there is a portion of the ship that we don't see.  We do see pieces of a smaller shadow ship that was destroyed alongside it but nothing of the battle crab.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 9, 2012)

Fluttershy said:


> 1.5 kg of antimatter annihilating with 1.5 kg of matter = 3 kg mass converted into energy = ~64.5 Megatons



Sounds about right.


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## Wan (Jul 9, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> I saw a clip of the battle and I didn't really see a Battle Crab being destroyed by one of those nukes.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]IIpg-N_Pp-g[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> There is one ship that looks like it was destroyed at 0:32 but that doesn't seem to be the case.  The ship mostly seems fine though there is a portion of the ship that we don't see.  We do see pieces of a smaller shadow ship that was destroyed alongside it but nothing of the battle crab.



There are non-whole pieces of debris hurtling around uncontrolled.  If that doesn't fit the definition of "destroyed" I don't know what does.


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## dream (Jul 9, 2012)

Oman said:


> There are non-whole pieces of debris hurtling around uncontrolled.  If that doesn't fit the definition of "destroyed" I don't know what does.



If you are talking about the one at 0:32 then I believe that none of those pieces are of the battle crab, they are of the smaller ships that were right next to it.  

The following link contains a section section dedicated to that scene, at the bottom, that does a good job of showing that the pieces weren't of the battle crab:


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## Wan (Jul 10, 2012)

Eternal Goob said:


> If you are talking about the one at 0:32 then I believe that none of those pieces are of the battle crab, they are of the smaller ships that were right next to it.
> 
> The following link contains a section section dedicated to that scene, at the bottom, that does a good job of showing that the pieces weren't of the battle crab:



B5Tech is sort of notorious for wanking B5.  There was another website, Babtech-onthe.net, which offered much lower appraisals of B5 technology, but the guy who ran the sight got tired of it and took it down.

Babtech basically did an analysis with a more high-definition video and screenshot analysis which showed a fragment of a Shadow ship off to the left which could not have been a fighter.  Also some of the debris that the B5 tech writer claims are fighter fragments look like ship fragments to me, frankly.


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## inviz345 (Jul 10, 2012)

Shadow battle crab wont get any hits in it has no subspace senors The Picard Maneuver is design to attack enemy be appearing in two places thanks to warp drive.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 10, 2012)

inviz345 said:


> Shadow battle crab wont get any hits in it has no subspace senors The Picard Maneuver is design to attack enemy be appearing in two places thanks to warp drive.



When a Shadow vessel acquires a target, it never stops until it destroys its target, *and it never misses when it fires at a target.*  That is what Dellen said about them when the White Star "fought" its first Battle Crab.  Until they figured out that the Shadows had a weakness to telepaths, the only way the White Star could kill a Battle Crab was through other means.

The first one was destroyed a maneuver where they opened a jump gate inside another one, causing a massive explosion of energy; the second one was downed when the White Star took a plunge into *Jupiter*, where the pressure and heat killed it.

The Enterprise-E's chances of killing a Battle Crab depend on two factors: 1) If they can cause enough damage to get past the organic armour, and 2) if they have the speed, maneuverability and agility to keep up with it.


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## inviz345 (Jul 10, 2012)

look shadows have senors time-delay of light and distance to trick sensors And there's no defense for it. because the time the shadows fire enterprise gone. 

	12 phaser arrays (before refit)
16 phaser arrays {after refit}
1 forward quantum torpedo launcher
3 forward photon torpedo launchers
6 aft photon torpedo launchers 

the enterprise could keep on hitting critical system.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jul 10, 2012)

Can't decide whether 'Battle Crab' is the stupidest name for a spaceship or the most awesome.


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## Wan (Jul 10, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> When a Shadow vessel acquires a target, it never stops until it destroys its target, *and it never misses when it fires at a target.*  That is what Dellen said about them when the White Star "fought" its first Battle Crab.  Until they figured out that the Shadows had a weakness to telepaths, the only way the White Star could kill a Battle Crab was through other means.
> 
> The first one was destroyed a maneuver where they opened a jump gate inside another one, causing a massive explosion of energy; the second one was downed when the White Star took a plunge into *Jupiter*, where the pressure and heat killed it.
> 
> The Enterprise-E's chances of killing a Battle Crab depend on two factors: 1) If they can cause enough damage to get past the organic armour, and 2) if they have the speed, maneuverability and agility to keep up with it.



...funny, I remember the White Star evading a battle crab without being hit.  Also NLF.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 11, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> *and it never misses when it fires at a target.*




Well, of course it never misses! Even the Flash couldn't dodge them 

That's a ridiculous and idiotic comment




inviz345 said:


> look shadows have senors time-delay of light and distance to trick sensors And there's no defense for it. because the time the shadows fire enterprise gone.
> 
> 12 phaser arrays (before refit)
> 16 phaser arrays {after refit}
> ...



Grammar, people. Grammar. It's important. It's the difference between something legible and this.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 11, 2012)

inviz345 said:


> look shadows have senors time-delay of light and distance to trick sensors And there's no defense for it. because the time the shadows fire enterprise gone.
> 
> 12 phaser arrays (before refit)
> 16 phaser arrays {after refit}
> ...



The Battle Crab is a living organism.  It has no critical systems that can be targetted on the surface; only an insanely high pain threshold.  

There are two ways I have seen a Shadow Battle Crab killed by one of the younger races in direct combat: run through by a focused energy beam when supressed by a telepath, or fried and overheated by sustained energy beam fire from multiple vessels.

All the other times a Shadow Battle Crab was destroyed easily, a First One vessel was involved. 



Oman said:


> ...funny, I remember the White Star evading a battle crab without being hit.  Also NLF.



Season 3, episode 1 and the fight at Ganymede and Jupiter, right?

In the first episode, the White Star was new to the Shadows, so it was testing the White Star.  The one at Ganymede was confused, disoriented and insane because the merging with the host was not done properly.

This is a sane Shadow Battle Crab that is going in for the kill.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 11, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> Well, of course it never misses! Even the Flash couldn't dodge them
> 
> That's a ridiculous and idiotic comment



That statement was made *in-universe.*  The fact that it did not destroy the White Star immediately after the first two shots surprised Dellen, which is a strong indicator that they never missed when aiming to kill in-universe before.  That was a hint that the Shadow Battle Crab was testing to see what the White Star was.

It has nothing to do with any other universe, *ESPECIALLY A F'ING COMIC BOOK CHARACTER!!*

I bet you tried to come off as smart with that comment, but it is just childish.


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## inviz345 (Jul 11, 2012)

when do it take place is after the movie nemesis.


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## Wan (Jul 11, 2012)

> The Battle Crab is a living organism. It has no critical systems that can be targetted on the surface; only an insanely high pain threshold.



Wait, what?  What does being a "living organism" have to do with lacking any critical systems?  "Living organisms" have hearts, brains, lungs, etc., that can most definitely be targeted to cause more critical damage than, say, taking out the spleen.  Logically a battle crab would have such systems too: a power source, sensors, weapon emitters, computer system (which IIRC is an actual human), etc...



Catalyst75 said:


> That statement was made *in-universe.*  The fact that it did not destroy the White Star immediately after the first two shots surprised Dellen, which is a strong indicator that they never missed when aiming to kill in-universe before.  That was a hint that the Shadow Battle Crab was testing to see what the White Star was.
> 
> It has nothing to do with any other universe, *ESPECIALLY A F'ING COMIC BOOK CHARACTER!!*
> 
> I bet you tried to come off as smart with that comment, but it is just childish.



Well, since it has nothing to do with any other universe, you should not have brought it up, since we are comparing the Battle Crab to something _from another universe._


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 12, 2012)

Oman said:


> Wait, what?  What does being a "living organism" have to do with lacking any critical systems?  "Living organisms" have hearts, brains, lungs, etc., that can most definitely be targeted to cause more critical damage than, say, taking out the spleen.  Logically a battle crab would have such systems too: a power source, sensors, weapon emitters, computer system (which IIRC is an actual human), etc...



A Shadow Battle Crab's computer system *is the intelligent life form that merges with it.*  There are no such systems for the Enterprise-E to take out.  In regards to a power source, all First One ships have a Hyperspace Tap, meaning they draw their power from the tidal forces of hyperspace for an infinite energy supply.

Because it uses 1) an intelligent lifeform as its central core, and 2) draws energy from the tidal forces of hyperspace, it would not have any organs to speak of, even with it being a living organism.



> Well, since it has nothing to do with any other universe, you should not have brought it up, since we are comparing the Battle Crab to something _from another universe._



You brought a comic book universe into a debate between two science fiction universe.  That is the issue that I have.  You brought a man who can run at the speed of light into a debate between two starships.

There are lines you do not cross in debates, and that was one of them.


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## Wan (Jul 12, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> A Shadow Battle Crab's computer system *is the intelligent life form that merges with it.*  There are no such systems for the Enterprise-E to take out.  In regards to a power source, all First One ships have a Hyperspace Tap, meaning they draw their power from the tidal forces of hyperspace for an infinite energy supply.
> 
> Because it uses 1) an intelligent lifeform as its central core, and 2) draws energy from the tidal forces of hyperspace, it would not have any organs to speak of, even with it being a living organism.



Yes, and certainly there is a part of the ship which draws that power?  But now you're saying that there is no specific thing to target _in spite of_ being a living organism, which means your original point of being a living organism somehow meaning it has no systems to target was false.  So it's now back to you to provide a statement from the show which explains that the battle crabs have no specific systems to target.



> You brought a comic book universe into a debate between two science fiction universe.  That is the issue that I have.  You brought a man who can run at the speed of light into a debate between two starships.
> 
> There are lines you do not cross in debates, and that was one of them.



He had a point, though he used an extreme example to illustrate it.  Simply saying Shadow ships have perfect accuracy and never miss is a no-limits fallacy.  It would be better to say they have perfect accuracy in-universe against B5 ships. That does not mean that they could perfectly target a Star Trek ship moving at a higher combat velocity than any B5 ship has demonstrated -- not that I'm claiming ST ships can do that; I'll leave that to other members.


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## inviz345 (Jul 12, 2012)

Data can keep the enterprise e out side the range of the shadow crab  a million or more km and  go drop an shuttle with an away team. Transport over to  the shadow battle crab destroy the CPU transport back to the shuttle.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 12, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> That statement was made *in-universe.*



Whooptie, fucking, dooh. Freeza's statement that he was the strongest in the universe (IIRC, or something along those lines), as well as Cell's statement of the same were also made in universe. Something's being said in universe is hyperbole. Characters are prone to hyperbole and as such simply because they say something doesn't make it true. _Especially_ when there is evidence that points to the opposite.



Catalyst75 said:


> The fact that it did not destroy the White Star immediately after the first two shots surprised Dellen, which is a strong indicator that they never missed when aiming to kill in-universe before.



And, _*more importantly*_, the fact that they missed in the first place is a strong indicator (e.g. proof) that the aforementioned quote is full of shit. Because, if you say you _*never*_ miss, and you miss _*once*_, you are (mathematically) infinitely far away from never missing.



Catalyst75 said:


> *It has nothing to do with any other universe*, *ESPECIALLY A F'ING COMIC BOOK CHARACTER!!*



The bolded quote matters a lot because it raises the question: then why raise it in the first place? If it does not apply to any other universe (hell, it doesn't even apply to its own universe).



Catalyst75 said:


> In regards to a power source, all First One ships have a Hyperspace Tap, meaning they draw their power from the tidal forces of hyperspace for an infinite energy supply.



Yeah-no. They might have an infinite POWER SUPPLY. But I _highly_ doubt that they can generate an infinite amount of power or else they'd have universe destroying lasers.



Catalyst75 said:


> Because it uses 1) an intelligent lifeform as its central core, and 2) draws energy from the tidal forces of hyperspace, it would not have any organs to speak of, even with it being a living organism.



That makes absolutely no sense. Simply because it is an intelligent life form and draws energy does _not_ mean that it would not have any organs. You have to _prove_ that it has no organs. _Especially_ since, _as you have said yourself_, it has a *central core*



Catalyst75 said:


> You brought a comic book universe into a debate between two science fiction universe. That is the issue that I have.
> 
> You brought a man who can run at the speed of light into a debate between two starships.
> 
> There are lines you do not cross in debates, and that was one of them.



It's called a comparison. You made a no-limits fallacy argument and that is plainly idiotic.

Also, simply because it is between two sci-fi universe does not justify your insipid comment at all. It still completely ignores the fact that the universe are different. These ships can maneuver differently, move at different speeds, have different countermeasures to inhibit aiming, accelerate at different rates, etc., etc. _all_ of which factor into how hard it is to hit.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 12, 2012)

paulatreides0 said:


> The bolded quote matters a lot because it raises the question: then why raise it in the first place? If it does not apply to any other universe (hell, it doesn't even apply to its own universe).



Some smart aleck raised the issue in the first place by brining the Flash into the arguement.  In-Universe, the Shadow battle crabs were known for never missing when they acquired a target.



> Yeah-no. They might have an infinite POWER SUPPLY. But I _highly_ doubt that they can generate an infinite amount of power or else they'd have universe destroying lasers.



READ.  WHAT.  I.  TYPED.  I said "infinite energy *SUPPLY.*  Not once did I say their power was infinite.



> That makes absolutely no sense. Simply because it is an intelligent life form and draws energy does _not_ mean that it would not have any organs. You have to _prove_ that it has no organs. _Especially_ since, _as you have said yourself_, it has a *central core*



I said that a Shadow vessel *operates by having an intelligent lifeform MERGE with it and BECOME ITS CENTRAL CORE!*  I never said that the ship itself was intelligent, only that it was a living being.



> It's called a comparison. You made a no-limits fallacy argument and that is plainly idiotic.
> 
> Also, simply because it is between two sci-fi universe does not justify your insipid comment at all. It still completely ignores the fact that the universe are different. These ships can maneuver differently, move at different speeds, have different countermeasures to inhibit aiming, accelerate at different rates, etc., etc. _all_ of which factor into how hard it is to hit.



I assume that you are including maneuverability and agility.  In that case, the Shadow Battle Crab outs the Enterprise-E in terms of both maneuverability and agility, and I sure as hell bet it is the same for acceleration.  In regards to speed, acceleration is most important in a space battle.


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## Wan (Jul 12, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> I assume that you are including maneuverability and agility.  In that case, the Shadow Battle Crab outs the Enterprise-E in terms of both maneuverability and agility, and I sure as hell bet it is the same for acceleration.  In regards to speed, acceleration is most important in a space battle.



Are you sure about that?  There is the episode "Relics" where the Enterprise-D moves one AU in about a minute.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 13, 2012)

Oman said:


> Are you sure about that?  There is the episode "Relics" where the Enterprise-D moves one AU in about a minute.



You do realize that this happens to be a *VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.*

One Astronomical Unit is equal to the approximate mean distance between the sun and the Earth.  Are you trying to tell me that Enterprise-D can somehow move *eight times the speed of light* without its warp drive, because that is the velocity per second required to travel one AU in a minute.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 13, 2012)

Oman said:


> Are you sure about that?  There is the episode "Relics" where the Enterprise-D moves one AU in about a minute.



No ship from ST can move 1 AU in a minute. IIRC, via canon impulse essentially give you close to light speed without all those bitchy time dilation problems, so that's above what they could do.



Catalyst75 said:


> Some smart aleck raised the issue in the first place by brining the Flash into the arguement.  In-Universe, the Shadow battle crabs were known for never missing when they acquired a target.



You _really_ need to learn what an analogy is. You made a comment that is a non-limits fallacy. You get called out for bullshit. It was a perfectly valid analogy given the comment you made and, if your statement really could stand on its own ground, it wouldn't matter whether or not it's Flash or Superman or Antman, or even an Imperial Star Destroyer ().



Catalyst75 said:


> READ.  WHAT.  I.  TYPED.  I said "infinite energy *SUPPLY.*  Not once did I say their power was infinite.



I admit, I misread what you said, and I concede that issue.



Catalyst75 said:


> I said that a Shadow vessel *operates by having an intelligent lifeform MERGE with it and BECOME ITS CENTRAL CORE!*  I never said that the ship itself was intelligent, only that it was a living being.



My point was that: Central Core=Still something to shoot at and destroy.



Catalyst75 said:


> I assume that you are including maneuverability and agility.  In that case, the Shadow Battle Crab outs the Enterprise-E in terms of both maneuverability and agility, and I sure as hell bet it is the same for acceleration.  In regards to speed, acceleration is most important in a space battle.



...and your point is? I'm not arguing for either side. I don't care who wins. You're still missing the _entire_ point I made, which was made very clearly: the problem is not who wins or loses this fight, I care nothing for it. The problem is that little no-limits fallacy you made at the beginning. Especially when you tried to state that simply because it's sci-fi and should only be between two ships that it's okay. It's still just as ridiculous and idiotic.

Just admit you made a no-limits fallacy and move on.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 13, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> You do realize that this happens to be a *VIOLATION OF THE LAWS OF PHYSICS.*



Lol, laws of physics in fiction. That sure must work out well 

Another tip: when debating physics in a fictional universe...just don't do it. You can use very basic physics to calculate things and do some fancy number works, but so far as the actual laws are concerned and the inability to do something...fiction doesn't do so well with those. Hence why you have engines that can move at close to C without dilation, or humanoid characters who can move at the speed of light, or guys who can evaporate universes without even a passing thought.

Stick to the canon material.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 13, 2012)

All right, I concede; the Shadow vessels do have a limit when it comes to their accuracy.  

When I mentioned the laws of physics, I was referring to how his statement about Enterprise-D travelling one AU in about a minute even violates the physics of the show.  A warp drive, a transwarp drive or a quantum slipstream drive is the only way a ship in that show can exceed the speed of light in Star Trek.  He basically stated that the Enterprise-D could do it with Impulse Engines alone.


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## paulatreides0 (Jul 13, 2012)

Catalyst75 said:


> All right, I concede; the Shadow vessels do have a limit when it comes to their accuracy.



There we go  



Catalyst75 said:


> When I mentioned the laws of physics, I was referring to how his statement about Enterprise-D travelling one AU in about a minute even violates the physics of the show.  A warp drive, a transwarp drive or a quantum slipstream drive is the only way a ship in that show can exceed the speed of light in Star Trek.  He basically stated that the Enterprise-D could do it with Impulse Engines alone.



Yes, however, the problem is that ST verse might not necessarily have the exact same physical limitations as our verse. That is to say there could be different laws or doohickies that allow you to circumvent that law. We never got a book of the physics of the ST verse, and while the ST verse does try to conform to reality it still violates certain laws (like impulse engines having no time dilation, which is....impossible. Or some kind of "Heisenberg Compensator", which is also impossible) and we cannot simply assume which laws it keeps and violates.

Now, we _do know_ it's bullshit as, vis-a-vis canon material, impulse engines only let you go around light speed at max (IIRC). The only thing that makes them really, really special is that they don't allow time dilation to happen, which is pretty damn useful in its own right.

Anywho, the point I was making was that in fiction in general: "it contradicts the laws of physics", tends to be a weak argument.


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## Catalyst75 (Jul 16, 2012)

But the point is that most if not all sci-fi universes follow the fact that you cannot exceed the speed of light unless you have one of these capabilities: the ability to enter another dimension of space (hyperspace), the ability to ride quantum slipstreams, or a warp drive.

But that is getting a bit off-topic right now.

While I do acknowledge the strength of the Enterprise-E, I just do not think that it is enough to stand up to a Battle Crab.


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## Wan (Jul 17, 2012)

Based on...?


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