# Mustang vs Ozai



## Chad (May 28, 2013)

Mustang from FMA Brotherhood vs Fire Lord Ozai from Avatar

Location:
1. *Agni Kai* face off
2. Valley with 100m starting distance

Intel:
Full

Sozins Comet is on.
Speed can be equalized if Mustang still wins.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Speed Equal?


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## Hyperion1O1 (May 28, 2013)

That name


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## Bioness (May 28, 2013)

Without a distance set, it goes to the default which I believe is 10/15 meters.

Roy snaps his fingers and kills him.


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## HiroshiSenju (May 28, 2013)

Yeah, distance is a huge factor here. At a long-ranged starting distance, Ozai could win for sure, but within some 10 or so meters, Mustang snaps his fingers and incinerates Ozai's eyes.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Still need speed equal, FMA are bordering supersonic at reaction speed and Avatar is Subsonic at best.


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## lokoxDZz (May 28, 2013)

long distance ozai has better chance but mustang still can get it,nearby mustang incinerates him


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## Expelsword (May 28, 2013)

*snap*
The last sound Ozai ever hears.


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## BuramuSama (May 28, 2013)

Mustang turns all the air around Ozai to a highly explosive gas. Ozai blows himself up


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## Linkofone (May 28, 2013)

The fire guy wins. :3


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## SionBarsod (May 28, 2013)

Roy with a pinpoint snap can take this. Hell it doesn't even have to be a pinpoint attack, just as long as Roy can see Ozai. End of Brotherhood Roy would be even worse.


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## Louis Cyphre (May 28, 2013)

Last thing that Ozai will see.



Hyperion1O1 said:


> That name


Beautiful isn't?


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## Chad (May 28, 2013)

I see. In case no one knew, the Agni Kai is a close range duel between two firebenders. I will set up another scenario.


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## egressmadara (May 28, 2013)

Let's see..... 100 meters + comet + knowledge....

Ozai stomps. That what you want, OP?


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## Louis Cyphre (May 28, 2013)

egressmadara said:


> That what you want, OP?


Apparently yes.


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## Chad (May 28, 2013)

But Mustang has shown to be able to accurately ignite people from over 50m while blind. Surely he could do 100m with eyesight.


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## General Mael Radec (May 28, 2013)

Mustang never loses, ever.


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## Expelsword (May 28, 2013)

Not against Avatar...

AHA!
Roy Mustang invades Pandora 10/10 thread.


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

Let's not get carried away here.  Ozai can be pretty dang fast with lightning himself, even up close.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Ozai has a small chance now that Op put speed equal.

 Mustang snaps he doesn't need to lift his arm as shown when he killed lust


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Still need a speed equal.



Why?  There are a handful of characters with arguably superhuman stats such as speed in FMA; Mustang is not one of them.  His advantage comes from how intrinsically fast his method of attacking (simply raising his hand and snapping) is.  That's not something speed equalizing could change.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Oman said:


> Why?  There are a handful of characters with arguably superhuman stats such as speed in FMA;* Mustang is not one of them*.  His advantage comes from how intrinsically fast his method of attacking (simply raising his hand and snapping) is.  That's not something speed equalizing could change.



And Mustang overwhelm Ed in a match. So why wouldn't he get the stat?


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> And Mustang overwhelm Ed in a match. So why wouldn't he get the stat?



Ed isn't one of them either, AFAIK.  The "match" Ed and Roy had was pretty early in FMA so even if Ed did get a superhuman speed feat at some point I'm not sure if it would apply to Roy.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Ed is the one that has the Superhuman stat next to Scar.  Alot of bullet timing feat was done by him.. Ed did the Gatling gun feat at the earliest arc. During Corneo(is that how his name spelled?)


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Ed is the one that has the Superhuman stat next to Scar.  Alot of bullet timing feat was done by him.. Ed did the Gatling gun feat at the earliest arc. During Corneo(is that how his name spelled?)



Ed raised the earth wall before Cornello's gun strafed him; it's not a bullet timing feat.  As for Scar, I'm familiar with the supposed instance of him bullet timing, but how does that carry over to Ed?


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Gatling gun was already fired before he raised the wall.


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Gatling gun was already fired before he raised the wall.



This is an old debate.  Tl;dr version: you can see the trail of bullets start at the edge of the wall, meaning the wall was already there when he started to strafe Ed.  At the very least Ed didn't raise the wall while a bullet was heading straight for him.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

What are you saying again? Gatling gun is fired before the wall is raised.



He raised it before he got hit.


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## Wan (May 28, 2013)

Sure, he started firing before Ed raised the wall.  But you can clearly see a line of bullet impacts across the wall starting at the edge, not a circle of impacts at the center.  That means Cornello started firing away from Ed and Al and strafed across them; this allows for Ed to raise the wall before being hit without actually bullet timing.


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

and He clearly raised it before he gets hit after the gun was fired. Which constitute a Bullet timing feat. Which is under a few meter which would end as a superhuman feat...


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## shade0180 (May 28, 2013)

Also the way he uses his alchemy is He will bend down touch the ground raise the wall which all happened while Corneo is firing the machine gun.. 

However you want to downplay it. The scan is already in front of you..


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## Saitomaru (May 28, 2013)

Oman said:


> Let's not get carried away here.  Ozai can be pretty dang fast with lightning himself, even up close.



He's back


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Yes, yes, I am the spectre of Roy Mustang anti-wank.  Fear me! 

By all means, provide an an example of Mustang making an explosion without raising or otherwise adjusting his arm.  I'm all eyes.

As for withstanding explosions, firebenders can duel shirtless and not even get singed, sit comfortably on a throne surrounded by flames, etc.  It's not an incredible amount of resilience but it's there.

And let's not retread the Avatar lightning speed debate.  No one will leave happy.   I will say that if you're going to claim that Avatar lightning's speed is unquantified, the counterpoint is that the time it takes for Roy Mustang's spark to go from his hand to his target is just as unquantified.


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## shade0180 (May 29, 2013)

you mean something like this?


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> you mean something like this?



Image won't load.


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## shade0180 (May 29, 2013)

You saw the first one but you don't see the second one when they are both from the same site.  Seriously. :sanji


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## Saitomaru (May 29, 2013)

Oman said:


> Yes, yes, I am the spectre of Roy Mustang anti-wank.  Fear me!



What wank?



> By all means, provide an an example of Mustang making an explosion without raising or otherwise adjusting his arm.  I'm all eyes.



Oh, I'm sorry. I wasn't aware that bending his forearm was part of the alchemic process. Its not like characters with similar set ups (transmutation circles on their skin/clothing/etc) haven't shown the ability to transmute without first raising their arm. The snap is what allows him to transmute flames and 'explosions' his elbow bending has nothing to do with it. He's not a bender, he doesn't have to dance before every attack (although he does have to dance, which is pretty dumb looking without the explosions to accompany it).



> As for withstanding explosions, firebenders can duel shirtless and not even get singed, sit comfortably on a throne surrounded by flames, etc.  It's not an incredible amount of resilience but it's there.



Duel shirtless while evading and/or flat-out bending each other's fire away. When they get touched unprotected they end up like a certain scarred prince. The kind of resilience we're talking about here is next to useless in this match-up.



> And let's not retread the Avatar lightning speed debate.



You mean the one that has long since been settled? Avatar lightning is not real lightning.



> No one will leave happy.   I will say that if you're going to claim that Avatar lightning's speed is unquantified, the counterpoint is that the time it takes for Roy Mustang's spark to go from his hand to his target is just as unquantified.



I'm not claiming to know how fast the transfer is but it IS fast enough to *appear* instant to characters with superhuman reactions. There's also the fact that to the unaware there is no warning sign. Its just a snap and then boom. And in this case said boom equals death/severe disfiguration.


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> You saw the first one but you don't see the second one when they are both from the same site.  Seriously. :sanji



That...doesn't involve him snapping, at all.

My argument is that Mustang always does take a moment, however small, to position his arm before snapping.  Maybe he needs to in order to aim.  Maybe it makes him more comfortable.  Maybe it's psychological.  Whatever the case, out of necessity or some level of CIS, he always does, and thus can be assumed to do so here.  Disproving this would be as simple as a single scan showing Mustang snapping without first adjusting his arm.


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## shade0180 (May 29, 2013)

Which is invalid as shown in the scan it's just there for looks. That's about.


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## Bioness (May 29, 2013)

Just curious, the people in here know why he snaps right? His symbol on his glove does all the work, all he needs is a spark. The snapping he does just creates the spark it doesn't actually transmute the air to create the explosion anywhere he wants, that is all does "passively"

So theoretically speaking he doesn't even need to move, he just has to wait until Ozai sends out fire and watch the guy blow himself up.


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## shade0180 (May 29, 2013)

Yea he could also do that..


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## Expelsword (May 29, 2013)

I dunno  why people keep making Roy vs. Firebender threads...


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## Bioness (May 29, 2013)

He also carried a gun during the Ishval War, if you want to add that to the mix.



Expelsword said:


> I dunno  why people keep making Roy vs. Firebender threads...



Because on other websites "DERP Azula can make million degree blue flame and is immunz to fier."


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## shade0180 (May 29, 2013)

I don't know why we always get FMA vs Avatar thread since they're pretty much outclassed. And still we get them almost every 3 months


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Just curious, the people in here know why he snaps right? His symbol on his glove does all the work, all he needs is a spark. The snapping he does just creates the spark it doesn't actually transmute the air to create the explosion anywhere he wants, that is all does "passively"
> 
> So theoretically speaking he doesn't even need to move, he just has to wait until Ozai sends out fire and watch the guy blow himself up.



If he has knowledge of Ozai's abilities and can do a transmutation before Ozai gets off a lightning bolt, sure.  But if we assume Mustang has such knowledge of Ozai's abilities, it's only fair to say that Ozai gets similar knowledge of Mustang, in which case Ozai would know to only use his firebending defensively and close in to melee range (Mustang's never shown any proficiency in physical CQC)



> He also carried a gun during the Ishval War, if you want to add that to the mix.



Yes, but guns make magic-based battles boring.



shade0180 said:


> I don't know why we always get FMA vs Avatar thread since they're pretty much outclassed. And still we get them almost every 3 months



FMA and Avatar are pretty closely aligned verses.  While Roy's alchemy is fairly broken, Bradley is faster than anyone in Avatar, and the other homunculi have a significant advantage over humans, no FMA character really has a defense against bloodbending and no one short of God!Father can take on Avatar State Aang.


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## Expelsword (May 29, 2013)

Knowledge is full, but Ozai just won't be fast enough to stop Roy from merely snapping his fingers, or maybe just shooting him in the face.


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Knowledge is full, but Ozai just won't be fast enough to stop Roy from merely snapping his fingers, or maybe just shooting him in the face.



He doesn't need to stop Roy from snapping; he can snuff out the spark with firebending so there's no explosion to begin with.

And yes, yes, Roy could just win by shooting Ozai, but where's the _fun_ in that?


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## Bioness (May 29, 2013)

Like I said with full knowledge Roy Mustang doesn't need to snap his fingers, the circle on his gloves already change the composition of the air to allow him to make fire at near any location within range. You also have to remember he isn't limited to fire he can transmute rock as well.

There would be no "snuffing" out the spark as Ozai would be the spark.


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## Expelsword (May 29, 2013)

Ozai can't possibly stop a spark in like, 1/100 second from 10/100/whatever feet away...


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Like I said with full knowledge Roy Mustang doesn't need to snap his fingers, the circle on his gloves already change the composition of the air to allow him to make fire at near any location within range. You also have to remember he isn't limited to fire he can transmute rock as well.
> 
> There would be no "snuffing" out the spark as Ozai would be the spark.



And like I said, with full knowledge Ozai would know to _not_ make a spark.  Mustang would need to snap his fingers in order to make a spark, and Ozai could stop that spark.



Expelsword said:


> Ozai can't possibly stop a spark in like, 1/100 second from 10/100/whatever feet away...



Evidence that the spark travels in 1/100 of a second?


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## Saitomaru (May 29, 2013)

Bioness said:


> Just curious, the people in here know why he snaps right? His symbol on his glove does all the work, all he needs is a spark. The snapping he does just creates the spark it doesn't actually transmute the air to create the explosion anywhere he wants, that is all does "passively"
> 
> So theoretically speaking he doesn't even need to move, he just has to wait until Ozai sends out fire and watch the guy blow himself up.



Yep.



Oman said:


> Evidence that the spark travels in 1/100 of a second?



Do you have evidence that Ozai can snuff out a spark (should Mustang choose to make one) from that distance? And how is Ozai snuffing out a spark, from that distance, when said spark needs to be snuffed out before it can cause ignition?


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## Expelsword (May 29, 2013)

Ignition is FAST.
I dunno how fast, but probably a lot faster than Ozai's reaction.


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Do you have evidence that Ozai can snuff out a spark (should Mustang choose to make one) from that distance? And how is Ozai snuffing out a spark, from that distance, when said spark needs to be snuffed out before it can cause ignition?



He doesn't have to snuff it out at the source, just before it can cause the explosion.  Range is not an issue here.


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## Saitomaru (May 29, 2013)

Oman said:


> He doesn't have to snuff it out at the source, just before it can cause the explosion.  Range is not an issue here.



What do you mean? It causes an explosion almost as soon as it is created. This was explained pretty well by Bioness. And what do you mean range isn't an issue? I don't remember seeing _any_ firebenders snuff out flames from such distances. Firebending was usually (IIRC) limited to close/medium ranges and lightning bending was the one exception. Comet amped Ozai had some LONG fire pillars but that's all he did. He didn't do anything else at such ranges.


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## Wan (May 29, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> What do you mean? It causes an explosion almost as soon as it is created. This was explained pretty well by Bioness. And what do you mean range isn't an issue? I don't remember seeing _any_ firebenders snuff out flames from such distances. Firebending was usually (IIRC) limited to close/medium ranges and lightning bending was the one exception. Comet amped Ozai had some LONG fire pillars but that's all he did. He didn't do anything else at such ranges.



"Almost as soon as"?  Can you _quantify_ that, or does it mean whatever you want it to mean?  Firebenders have extinguished and deflected fire from other firebenders.  Just a quick wave of his hand and a few meters in front of him the spark will stop.  Ozai doesn't have to wait until after Mustang snaps to do this, either; with full knowledge he can anticipate Mustang's attack and start making a defense even as Mustang is snapping.


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## Saitomaru (May 29, 2013)

Oman said:


> "Almost as soon as"?  Can you _quantify_ that, or does it mean whatever you want it to mean?



No. And you need to stop doing this shit. The snap to boom speed is such that it appears to be instant to characters in his verse. Quantification or not the fact that they're either equal in speed or Mustang is faster makes it nigh-undodgeable as far as Ozai is concerned.



> Firebenders have extinguished and deflected fire from other firebenders.  Just a quick wave of his hand and a few meters in front of him the spark will stop.



That requires rather close range and is only ever used on projectile-esque attacks. Not explosions.



> Ozai doesn't have to wait until after Mustang snaps to do this, either; with full knowledge he can anticipate Mustang's attack and start making a defense even as Mustang is snapping.



So you're saying he can anticipate and block an attack that is occurring in a snap? One that he won't know the target of (well, the more specific target). What happens if Mustang were to target Ozai's eyes? Or just all of him? The only defenses I ever say Firebenders use were swipe-like and blocked in one direction and (as I said before) were never shown (IIRC) against anything that was all encompassing rather than just unidirectional, oncoming, fireballs/streams.

You're also assuming Ozai can throw up a defense before Mustang simply snaps.


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## Wan (May 30, 2013)

"Appears to be instant to characters in his verse"?  Can you provide an example of someone pointing out how fast Mustang's attack appears to be, or are you just saying this because it's convenient?

Whatever the exact thing Mustang is targeting, it still involves him sending a spark towards Ozai.  A spark which Ozai can extinguish through firebending.  He doesn't have to be precise about it, just a single "put out fire" sweep and the spark won't get through. It's not complicated.


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## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> "Appears to be instant to characters in his verse"?  Can you provide an example of someone pointing out how fast Mustang's attack appears to be, or are you just saying this because it's convenient?



See, you're doing this shit again. I was referencing the fact that no one reacts to/dodges a serious Mustang's snaps. I was also referencing the time frame between snaps and explosions. The point still stands that characters in his verse who are as fast or faster haven't (to my knowledge) been able to dodge a serious mustang's explosions. Why would Ozai (who is either equal or arguably slower) be able to dodge? Blocking is even harder since to block he needs to counterbend (best term I could come up with) the explosion. Which takes more time than Mustang's snap based purely off the movement required.



> Whatever the exact thing Mustang is targeting, it still involves him sending a spark towards Ozai.



No it doesn't. 



> A spark which Ozai can extinguish through firebending.  He doesn't have to be precise about it, just a single "put out fire" sweep and the spark won't get through. It's not complicated.



Did you ever actually see Mustang fight?


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## Unlosing Ranger (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> A spark which Ozai can extinguish through firebending.  He doesn't have to be precise about it, just a single "put out fire" sweep and the spark won't get through. It's not complicated.



He'd just blow himself up


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## shade0180 (May 30, 2013)

Oman you are again comparing character with borderline supersonic reaction to character with less than subsonic reaction and equalizing them. This has been resolve in the first two pages Ozai wouldn't know what hit him. Also this speed equal only equalizes movement speed not reaction. And those guys that can't react to Mustang are supersonic character you think a subsonic guy can and will react?


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## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Oman, you need to use some common sense.
I don't know how fast a spark ignites hydrogen, but I know damn sure that it's faster than Ozai is.


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## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> See, you're doing this shit again. I was referencing the fact that no one reacts to/dodges a serious Mustangs snaps. I was also referencing the time frame between snaps and explosions. The point still stands that characters in his verse who are as fast or faster haven't (to my knowledge) been able to dodge a serious mustang's explosions. Why would Ozai (who is either equal or arguably slower) be able to dodge? Blocking is even harder since to block he needs to counterbend (best term I could come up with) the explosion. Which takes more time than Mustang's snap based purely off the movement required.



They don't dodge because you can't avoid a large explosion simply by reacting to it with a gesture.  The spark doesn't matter to most people, as they have no way of keeping it from setting off an explosion.  Ozai does.



> No it doesn't.



Pretty sure it does.  No spark, no flame or explosion.  Which is why Mustang needed to use a lighter when Lust tore up his spark gloves.



> Did you ever actually see Mustang fight?



I don't catch your meaning.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> He'd just blow himself up



No, what I'm suggesting would not involve Ozai making any of his own fire, only putting out Mustang's spark before it can reach him and set off the explosion.


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## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

When the spark is formed, it is basically too late.
He has a hydrogen trail ready to go already.
And it burns FAST.
Faster than Avatar characters can react.

He would have to be ready to snuff it out as Roy moves his fingers to snap, and he would be waving his arms around like a damn pinwheel for the rest of the match desperately trying to avoid drowning, er, *exploding* as Roy continues to snap.

If Ozai uses any fire or lightning, he dies, because he is surrounded by flammable gasses, and explodes violently.
Roy will never lose to any Firebender.


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## shade0180 (May 30, 2013)

Well Roy can also kill him by Oxygen Toxicity. A completely viable method Roy could do to any fight since he has shown to do it already in the series (yea, he does it to pick up girls), just transmute the air around Ozai to be 100% oxygen for the duration of the fight if he start to bend Lightning he dies, if he starts to bend fire he dies, If he doesn't do a thing he still dies, If he moves he still dies since moving will make him inhale the Oxygen faster....


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## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> They don't dodge because you can't avoid a large explosion simply by reacting to it with a gesture.  The spark doesn't matter to most people, as they have no way of keeping it from setting off an explosion.  Ozai does.



What you're saying implies they can actually react to it. That never (IIRC) appears to be the case.



> Pretty sure it does.  No spark, no flame or explosion.  Which is why Mustang needed to use a lighter when Lust tore up his spark gloves.



No, what I was saying is the spark doesn't travel towards the opponent it... oh Expelsword already explained it. That's convenient.



> I don't catch your meaning.



I asked because what you were suggesting was incorrect (i.e- the spark travels so Ozai could snuff it out before it got to him).



> No, what I'm suggesting would not involve Ozai making any of his own fire, only putting out Mustang's spark before it can reach him and set off the explosion.



And as Expelsword already pointed out if we were to assume he could snuff out the spark before it can cause ignition he'd have to continue to do so for the entire match up. Which would leave him with little/no way of actually attacking. Because while he's waving his arms around Mustang need only keep snapping. If Ozai tried to go on the offensive with anything other than physical attacks he'd kill himself.


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## Wan (May 30, 2013)

The spark does travel towards the opponent.  How else is it supposed to get from Roy's glove to the target?

The point that Ozai would have to continually be putting out the spark is a fair one.  In combination with the detail that Ozai creating any fire himself would simply set off the explosion, that limits his options.  Which is why I suggested earlier that he would close the distance with Mustang and engage him in CQC.  That also counters the "oxygen toxicity" argument, as Ozai would get close too fast for that to really have effect.

I think it's questionable if bender lightning would set off the explosion though.  It doesn't seem to effect anything except the target.


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## shade0180 (May 30, 2013)

How is he closing the distance when Roy is faster than him even in movement. 



> I think it's questionable if bender lightning would set off the explosion though. It doesn't seem to effect anything except the target.



Because lightning doesn't have a path it follow? Err No....


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## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> The spark does travel towards the opponent.  How else is it supposed to get from Roy's glove to the target?



Expelsword explained already. This is also why I asked if you ever saw one of Mustang's fights.



> The point that Ozai would have to continually be putting out the spark is a fair one.  In combination with the detail that Ozai creating any fire himself would simply set off the explosion, that limits his options.  Which is why I suggested earlier that he would close the distance with Mustang and engage him in CQC.  That also counters the "oxygen toxicity" argument, as Ozai would get close too fast for that to really have effect.
> 
> I think it's questionable if bender lightning would set off the explosion though.  It doesn't seem to effect anything except the target.



How is he closing the distance when (even if we assume its speed equal) Mustang can just continuously backtrack whilst snapping?

Or if he has his gun he could just shoot Ozai


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## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> I think it's questionable if bender lightning would set off the explosion though.  It doesn't seem to effect anything except the target.



Lightning is hot.

Here's a small example of what Ozai will be dealing with.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DZc5WKC411U[/YOUTUBE]


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## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Expelsword explained already. This is also why I asked if you ever saw one of Mustang's fights.



What?  That there's a hydrogen trail formed already?  Sure.  The spark still travels from Mustang's glove along the hydrogen trail to the target.  It can still be put out during the brief moment that it's traveling along that trail.



> How is he closing the distance when (even if we assume its speed equal) Mustang can just continuously backtrack whilst snapping?



Ozai would be running forward, Mustang would be going backwards.  Either Mustang will be going slower or he'll be going so fast that he will inevitably trip.



> Or if he has his gun he could just shoot Ozai



Why should he?  Are you saying he needs a different way to win than his flame alchemy? 



Expelsword said:


> Lightning is hot.



And?  Are you applying characteristics of natural lightning to bender lightning just because it's a characteristic of natural lightning?  Because I'm not sure you want to go down that path.


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## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> What?  That there's a hydrogen trail formed already?  Sure.  The spark still travels from Mustang's glove along the hydrogen trail to the target.  It can still be put out during the brief moment that it's traveling along that trail.



Is Ozai fast enough to do that, over and over again? I doubt it.



> Ozai would be running forward, Mustang would be going backwards.  Either Mustang will be going slower or he'll be going so fast that he will inevitably trip.



No, he could turn around, look over his shoulder, and run in the opposite direction while snapping.



> Why should he?  Are you saying he needs a different way to win than his flame alchemy?



No, I'm saying he doesn't deserve to die in Mustang's glorious flames. He's not worthy 



> And?  Are you applying characteristics of natural lightning to bender lightning just because it's a characteristic of natural lightning?  Because I'm not sure you want to go down that path.



Sure, we could go down that path. It'd be your burden of proof to prove its as fast as real lightning since I'm pretty sure that's what you were getting at. That wound Aang got on his back (from lightning bending IIRC) looks an awful lot like Zuko's face wound. Which is a burn scar. Maybe its not to much of a leap to say that Aang's back wound is a burn wound...


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## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> That wound Aang got on his back (from lightning bending IIRC) looks an awful lot like Zuko's face wound. Which is a burn scar. Maybe its not to much of a leap to say that Aang's back wound is a burn wound...



Exactly.
It will ignite the hydrogen.


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## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> No, he could turn around, look over his shoulder, and run in the opposite direction while snapping.



Then he's reducing either the rate at which he gets snaps off or the accuracy.  Or he's constantly looking behind himself and running the risk of tripping or smacking right into something.  Either way, the argument has shifted to Mustang _running away_ from Ozai.  That doesn't strike me as going in Mustang's favor.



> Sure, we could go down that path. It'd be your burden of proof to prove its as fast as real lightning since I'm pretty sure that's what you were getting at. That wound Aang got on his back (from lightning bending IIRC) looks an awful lot like Zuko's face wound. Which is a burn scar. Maybe its not to much of a leap to say that Aang's back wound is a burn wound...



If the burden of proof goes to the person claiming that bender lightning has the same characteristics as real lightning, why stop at the speed of it?  Bender lightning would only seem to effect the point of impact; the firebender doesn't get thrown back by the explosive heat of their own lightning.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Then he's reducing either the rate at which he gets snaps off or the accuracy.  Or he's constantly looking behind himself and running the risk of tripping or smacking right into something.  Either way, the argument has shifted to Mustang _running away_ from Ozai.  That doesn't strike me as going in Mustang's favor.



What is there to smack into? And I'm just explaining how Mustang can counter your 'Ozai goes for CQC' tactic. Not that it matters since Mustang snaps and the match is over.



> If the burden of proof goes to the person claiming that bender lightning has the same characteristics as real lightning, why stop at the speed of it?



Because I'm not the one claiming (or about to claim) that bender lightning is as fast as real lightning despite contradictory showings. You want to claim its as fast as real lightning? Prove it.



> Bender lightning would only seem to effect the point of impact; the firebender doesn't get thrown back by the explosive heat of their own lightning.



They don't get thrown back or burned by their fire when they're controlling it either (except for those times it was used to fly). That doesn't change the fact that their fire has been shown to burn people (i.e- Zuko). Aang's back wound looks amazingly similar to Zuko's facial burn. This leads me to believe that the back wound is burn related. And since it was caused by a certain lightning bender's attack...


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> What is there to smack into? And I'm just explaining how Mustang can counter your 'Ozai goes for CQC' tactic. Not that it matters since Mustang snaps and the match is over.



I don't think his counter would likely be enough.  And I don't think a simple snap is a completely reliable way of winning the match off the bat.



> Because I'm not the one claiming (or about to claim) that bender lightning is as fast as real lightning despite contradictory showings. You want to claim its as fast as real lightning? Prove it.



My point is not that bender lightning is as fast as natural lightning.  My point is you can't arbitrarily apply one characteristic of natural lightning to bender lightning while dismissing another, which is what Expelsword was implicitly doing.



> They don't get thrown back or burned by their fire when they're controlling it either (except for those times it was used to fly). That doesn't change the fact that their fire has been shown to burn people (i.e- Zuko). Aang's back wound looks amazingly similar to Zuko's facial burn. This leads me to believe that the back wound is burn related. And since it was caused by a certain lightning bender's attack...



They don't get thrown back because the heat is not effecting things in their immediate vicinity, at least in the case of the lightning.  If it was, then they would be thrown back by the air superheating and explosively expanding from the lightning, with or without Mustang's gas setup.  Therefore the lightning would not set off Mustang's gas setup in the immediate vicinity of the lightning user.


----------



## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Here's the best the fight will go for Ozai:
He manages to snuff all of Roy's sparks (which is doubtful) and runs at Roy so he can't use explosions.
Roy proceeds to 
A) Shoot him in the face
         OR
B) Transmute the ground so Ozai cannot advance.

Here's the worst it can go:
A) Roy snaps and Ozai dies
         OR
B) Ozai makes a bending attack and dies.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

You're forgetting

C) Ozai shoots a lightning bolt and Roy dies.


----------



## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> You're forgetting
> 
> C) Ozai shoots a lightning bolt and Roy dies.


Roy will snap before Ozai can build lightning.
Observing the movements he needs to make will tell you that.

This is not TruTV, there is no answer C.


----------



## Samavarti (May 30, 2013)

The only times when the spark actually needs to travel to the opponent is for pinpoint attacks, like when he burned Envy eyes,  he can however just create a huge explosion that will caught Ozai, and the spark doesn't needs to travel toward Ozai, since doesn't needs to begin where Ozai is, which will make the whole snatch the spark a whole lot more difficult.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Roy will snap before Ozai can build lightning.
> Observing the movements he needs to make will tell you that.
> 
> This is not TruTV, there is no answer C.



I'd say it's pretty much a toss up for who can get it off first.  Like I said on the first page, Ozai is pretty dang quick with lightning himself.



> ^Which means is not as hot as lighting, but still produces a fair amount of heat.
> 
> Also the only times the spark actually needs to travel to the opponet is for pinpoint attacks, like when he burned Envy eyes, he can however just create a hugh explosion that will caught Ozai, and the spark doesn't needs to travel toward Ozai, since doesn't needs to begin where Ozai is, which will make the whole snatch the spark a whole lot more difficult.



If it's not as hot as lightning, why would it be hot at all?

The spark needs to travel towards Ozai's general vicinity in order to set off the explosion. If Mustang ignites the explosion meters away from Ozai rather than right on top of him, that just makes it easier for Ozai to defend against the explosion itself, not to mention the explosion would simply be less damaging since Ozai would be at the edge of it rather than the center.


----------



## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Faster than snapping your fingers?

From the time I see Ozai's lightning appear, I can raise my hand to my face and snap my fingers twice
I imagine Roy is at least as fast as I am.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Faster than snapping your fingers?
> 
> From the time I see Ozai's lightning appear, I can raise my hand to my face and snap my fingers twice
> I imagine Roy is at least as fast as I am.



Snapping is not the only step involved.  Mustang has to take some time, however small, to mentally aim at the target and transmute the water vapor in the air before letting off the spark.  It isn't some spell that auto-targets the opponent (as shown by when Mustang needed Riza's help at targeting when he was blinded).

To a degree, I'd say it's unquantifiable.  But not in the realm of being definitively impossible for Ozai to match.


----------



## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

Wasn't it already stated that Roy has supersonic reactions?

He's plenty fast.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Wasn't it already stated that Roy has supersonic reactions?
> 
> He's plenty fast.



I don't agree that Roy has supersonic reactions.  He lacks direct feats or even feats of outspeeding people with definitive supersonic feats; the claims of people he has beaten being supersonic are tenuous at best.


----------



## Samavarti (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Snapping is not the only step involved.  Mustang has to take some time, however small, to mentally aim at the target and transmute the water vapor in the air before letting off the spark.  It isn't some spell that auto-targets the opponent (as shown by when Mustang needed Riza's help at targeting when he was blinded).
> 
> To a degree, I'd say it's unquantifiable.  But not in the realm of being definitively impossible for Ozai to match.



He doesn't really needs to aim at Ozai, just near him, and we have seen Roy casually creating explosions to intercept attacks from superhuman characters from close range, so it's safe to assume it doesn't take him much more time that the one he needs to raise his hand and snap.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> I don't think his counter would likely be enough.  And I don't think a simple snap is a completely reliable way of winning the match off the bat.



Don't be dense.



> My point is not that bender lightning is as fast as natural lightning.  My point is you can't arbitrarily apply one characteristic of natural lightning to bender lightning while dismissing another, which is what Expelsword was implicitly doing.



I didn't arbitrarily apply a characteristic and from what I can see, Expelsword didn't either. Bender lightning has shown to burn things. So its not out of place to assume it gives off heat and could cause ignition.



> They don't get thrown back because the heat is not effecting things in their immediate vicinity, at least in the case of the lightning.  If it was, then they would be thrown back by the air superheating and explosively expanding from the lightning, with or without Mustang's gas setup.  Therefore the lightning would not set off Mustang's gas setup in the immediate vicinity of the lightning user.



Maybe they don't get thrown back and shit because the lightning isn't as hot as RL lightning is... It has shown to burn things so saying it can't cause ignition is false. The rest of your reasoning is flawed and based off of a black and white outlook on the situation (i.e- Bender lightning either is as hot as RL lightning or isn't hot at all).



Oman said:


> You're forgetting
> 
> C) Ozai shoots a lightning bolt and Roy dies.



Takes too long and Ozai's lightning bolt would cause ignition giving him (at best) a double KO.



Oman said:


> I'd say it's pretty much a toss up for who can get it off first.  Like I said on the first page, Ozai is pretty dang quick with lightning himself.



No its not. Even if we assume they're completely equal in speed it takes less movement (and therefore time) to snap your fingers than it does to wave your arms in a circle and then thrust them in your opponents direction.



> If it's not as hot as lightning, why would it be hot at all?



This reasoning is flawed. It has already been shown to cause burns (severe burns at that) when it lands a hit unblocked/channeled.



> The spark needs to travel towards Ozai's general vicinity in order to set off the explosion. If Mustang ignites the explosion meters away from Ozai rather than right on top of him, that just makes it easier for Ozai to defend against the explosion itself, not to mention the explosion would simply be less damaging since Ozai would be at the edge of it rather than the center.



Already explained that the spark doesn't travel.



Oman said:


> Snapping is not the only step involved.  Mustang has to take some time, however small, to mentally aim at the target and transmute the water vapor in the air before letting off the spark.  It isn't some spell that auto-targets the opponent (as shown by when Mustang needed Riza's help at targeting when he was blinded).



Yeah... Considering the fact that he does all this multiple times on the fly while snapping. I'd wager it doesn't take him nearly as long to look at his opponent, think, and snap, as it does Ozai to look at his opponent, think, whirl his arms, and thrust.



> To a degree, I'd say it's unquantifiable.  But not in the realm of being definitively impossible for Ozai to match.



You're bringing up shit but conveniently leaving out the fact that it also takes Ozai some measure of time to "mentally aim at the target and [bend chakra] before letting off the [bender lightning]". Also, Bioness already explained the process to you. 

Ozai dies. /thread


----------



## midgetoverlord (May 30, 2013)

With the lightning attacks, how is it implied to deal damage? If it's through electricity like I assume than I think it's fair to say it would ignite the gas. Oxygen and hydrogen are pretty poor conductors of electricity, which would cause a lot of heat to build up. Likely enough to ignite the gas. If the lightning deals damage via heat, same result.


----------



## Expelsword (May 30, 2013)

He would be creating the spark FOR Roy...


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

midgetoverlord said:


> With the lightning attacks, how is it implied to deal damage? If it's through electricity like I assume than I think it's fair to say it would ignite the gas. Oxygen and hydrogen are pretty poor conductors of electricity, which would cause a lot of heat to build up. Likely enough to ignite the gas. If the lightning deals damage via heat, same result.



You seem to be new here so you may not know... Oman is not known for being objective in Avatar matches. Just a word of warning.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Maybe they don't get thrown back and shit because the lightning isn't as hot as RL lightning is... It has shown to burn things so saying it can't cause ignition is false. The rest of your reasoning is flawed and based off of a black and white outlook on the situation (i.e- Bender lightning either is as hot as RL lightning or isn't hot at all).



Much of the explosion caused by lightning is because of how lightning superheats the air around it.  We see that bender lightning causes such an explosion on impact, much like real lightning.  So it essentially is as hot as real lightning upon the point of impact.  But no explosion happens around the lightning user, indicating that it is not hot at that point.  Again, if it's not as hot as the real thing at the point of origin, why would it be giving off any heat at all?  The burden of proof is on you.



> Already explained that the spark doesn't travel.



The spark _has_ to travel from Roy's hand to the target pocket of transmuted gas.  This is a fundamental part of how Roy's alchemy works.  How else would he set off the explosion?



> Yeah... Considering the fact that he does all this multiple times on the fly while snapping. It'd wager it doesn't take him nearly as long to look at his opponent, think, and snap, as it does Ozai to look at his opponent, think, whirl his arms, and thrust.
> 
> You're bringing up shit but conveniently leaving out the fact that it also takes Ozai some measure of time to "mentally aim at the target and [bend chakra] before letting off the [bender lightning]". Also, Bioness already explained the process to you.
> 
> Ozai dies. /thread



"You'd wager", sure.  But you can't definitively prove it.  Ozai's aiming comes down to pointing, he doesn't have to set up something like Roy has to with transmuting gas.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Much of the explosion caused by lightning is because of how lightning superheats the air around it.  We see that bender lightning causes *such an explosion on impact*, much like real lightning.  So it essentially is as hot as real lightning upon the point of impact.  But no explosion happens around the lightning user, indicating that it is not hot at that point.  Again, if it's not as hot as the real thing at the point of origin, why would it be giving off any heat at all?  The burden of proof is on you.



What explosion?



> The spark _has_ to travel from Roy's hand to the target pocket of transmuted gas.  This is a fundamental part of how Roy's alchemy works.  How else would he set off the explosion?



Go back a few pages and properly read the explanation since it appears my first assessment was correct.



> "You'd wager", sure.  But you can't definitively prove it.  Ozai's aiming comes down to pointing,



Actually I can. He's faster than Ozai, and fights characters that are faster than Ozai. None of them have been able to dodge his attacks while he is serious. Not even close. So by virtue of being able to hit targets FASTER than Ozai it is indeed fast enough to hit him. If we assume speed is equal then all we need to do is compare the movement (cast time) required for both techniques. Mustang snaps=Boom. Ozai waves his arms and then points= lightning. And Ozai's lightning bending is not as simple as point and shoot. No bending is that easy, all of it takes some measure of chakra molding and dancing.



> he doesn't have to set up something like Roy has to with transmuting gas.



Bioness already explained this to you. Stop being dense.

Also, as seen in his skirmish with Envy he can ignite and reset for another attack in quick succession leading to easy chaining.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 30, 2013)

which supersonic feats does FMA have btw ?

general bullet-timing =/= supersonic


----------



## Louis Cyphre (May 30, 2013)

They're bullet timers for sure.
I don't know about supersonic speeds. Maybe comes from Wrath? 


> 5 pages


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 30, 2013)

if there is something it'd come from Wrath, but I don't remember anything specific


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> What explosion?





The explosion that happens every time someone shoots a bender lightning bolt.  Do you really need me to post a picture of bender lightning causing an explosion on impact?



> Go back a few pages and properly read the explanation since it appears my first assessment was correct.



I've read your explanations and found them lacking.  Moreover, I haven't even seen an attempt to explain what you're claiming that doesn't inherently involve the spark still traveling from Mustang's hand to it's target.



> Actually I can. He's faster than Ozai, and fights characters that are faster than Ozai. None of them have been able to dodge his attacks while he is serious. Not even close. So by virtue of being able to hit targets FASTER than Ozai it is indeed fast enough to hit him. If we assume speed is equal then all we need to do is compare the movement (cast time) required for both techniques. Mustang snaps=Boom. Ozai waves his arms and then points= lightning. And Ozai's lightning bending is not as simple as point and shoot. No bending is that easy, all of it takes some measure of chakra molding and dancing.



What targets has Mustang hit that can be proven to be faster than Ozai?  In any case, as I've already said, Mustang's opponents lack the ability to stop Mustang's spark from getting to them; even if they have the necessary speed to react like I'm suggesting Ozai would, it wouldn't do them any good.

The process goes beyond simple movement for Mustang.  He needs to aim, which is a mental process if not a physical one, and he needs to establish the pocket of transmuted gas and the trail leading to it.  Again, rather unquantifiable, especially in the primary source medium of a manga where we're not seeing every second of events and thus such a moment would not be noticeable. 



> Also, as seen in his skirmish with Envy he can ignite and reset for another attack in quick succession leading to easy chaining.



That's a fair point...if you can quantify it.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 30, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Supersonic?


?                         .


----------



## Qinglong (May 30, 2013)

Wrath was one

Scar dodging bullets fired from Hawkeye was another iirc


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Wrath was one
> 
> Scar dodging bullets fired from Hawkeye was another iirc



Mustang never landed a hit on Wrath.  And whether or not Scar's dodging/aimdodging of shots from Hawkeye qualifies as bullet timing, Mustang's never landed a hit on him either.


----------



## Qinglong (May 30, 2013)

He managed to keep track of Envy

I'm not arguing he's a bullet timer, but he should be able to react to people moving at superhuman-faster than eye speeds at the minimum

Still not sure why this hasn't stopped at boiling eyeballs


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 30, 2013)

Mustang has some superhuman reactions


I was talking about supersonic though which is > bullet-timing


----------



## HiroshiSenju (May 30, 2013)

Bradley practically danced around bullets. Then there's him deflecting bullets and cutting through the tank shell as a good reaction/arm movement feat.



Oman said:


> Mustang never landed a hit on Wrath.  And whether or not Scar's dodging/aimdodging of shots from Wrath qualifies as bullet timing, Mustang's never landed a hit on him either.



To be fair, didn't Mustang's alchemy get doused (no pun intended) during his only fight with Scar?


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> He managed to keep track of Envy
> 
> I'm not arguing he's a bullet timer, but he should be able to react to people moving at superhuman-faster than eye speeds at the minimum
> 
> Still not sure why this hasn't stopped at boiling eyeballs



And?  Does Envy have a superspeed feat?



HiroshiSenju said:


> To be fair, didn't Mustang's alchemy get doused (no pun intended) during his only fight with Scar?



Yep.  Either way it can't be cited as an example of Mustang's speed.

Edit:  Oh and Bradley splitting a tank shell doesn't happen in the manga, only in Brotherhood.


----------



## Qinglong (May 30, 2013)

Envy kept up decently with Ling


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Envy kept up decently with Ling



And what are Ling's feats?


----------



## Samavarti (May 30, 2013)

Moved faster then Gluttony could percive, and in purley pyschal stats seed to be on the same level of Ed.


Oman said:


> Edit:  Oh and Bradley splitting a tank shell doesn't happen in the manga, only in Brotherhood.


Dodging a rain of bullets, a bullet from the back, and outruning an explosion is not though.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> No, what I'm suggesting would not involve Ozai making any of his own fire, only putting out Mustang's spark before it can reach him and set off the explosion.


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> *Moved faster then Gluttony could percive*, and in purley pyschal stats seed to be on the same level of Ed.



Could you provide a scan of that, please?  I'm not familiar with that feat.  As for Ed, I don't think Ed is particularly superhumanly fast either.



> Dodging a rain of bullets, a bullet from the back, and outruning an explosion is not though.



In Brotherhood, the first is portrayed as him deflecting a hail of bullets with his saber.  In the manga that doesn't happen; he's shown for a single frame running up to a machine gun but it's not clear if what he is doing is actually dodging the bullets or simply aimdodging.  He does dodge a single rifle bullet from behind in the manga, though.  As for the explosion, I'm not sure what you are referring to.


----------



## Samavarti (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Could you provide a scan of that, please?  I'm not familiar with that feat.  As for Ed, I don't think Ed is particularly superhumanly fast either.


Actually i confused him with Lan Fan, Ling avoided getting speed blitzed and stomped by Bradley.





Oman said:


> In Brotherhood, the first is portrayed as him deflecting a hail of bullets with his saber.  In the manga that doesn't happen; he's shown for a single frame running up to a machine gun but it's not clear if what he is doing is actually dodging the bullets or simply aimdodging.  He does dodge a single rifle bullet from behind in the manga, though.  As for the explosion, I'm not sure what you are referring to.


a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.
a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.

a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Could you provide a scan of that, please?  I'm not familiar with that feat.  As for Ed, I don't think Ed is particularly superhumanly fast either.



You mean, in spite of what was posted earlier?


----------



## Wan (May 30, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> Actually i confused him with Lan Fan, Ling avoided getting speed blitzed and stomped by Bradley.



Right, that's what I thought you would bring up.

Ultimately what it comes down to, then, is that Bradley has maybe one example of a bullet timing feat (and even that is questionable, as I explain below).  Because Bradley can bullet time, Ling can bullet time because he can keep up with Bradley at least a bit, and Envy can bullet time because he can keep up with Ling at least a bit, and then Mustang can bullet time because he can keep up Envy.  Is that what you're saying?

That strikes me as tenuous reasoning at best.  You're essentially allowing one character's feat to apply to a whole bunch of other characters simply because they have fought that character before.  Furthermore, if you're willing to stretch a feat that far...then what the fudge is the problem with allowing Iroh to have lightning reaction speeds based on his one feat of reacting to natural lightning?  You get Azula having superhuman speeds because she landed a hit on Iroh, you have Aang with superhuman reaction speeds because he can keep up with Azula, and you get Ozai with superhuman reaction speeds because he could keep up with Aang.

It's the same damn reasoning, yet if I were ever to bring it up in a thread you all would shoot it down.



> a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.
> a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.
> 
> a ki based attack or simply an extremely powerful punch.



The first two links are giving me a "This manga is licensed and not available" message.  As for the first...they're shooting him while he's in the air, right?  Isn't it possible that he's seeing where they are aiming and ascertaining how he needs to move preemptively to aimdodge?  He does something similar when escaping the train that got sabotaged: ascertaining the best path before even starting to use it.  I mean, sure it's still fast, but it's not necessarily a straight bullet timing feat.  It's not as definitive as, say, Luffy jumping in front of a whole bunch of musket shots when he first met Zoro.  There's no character statement reinforcing the idea that Bradley can dodge bullets, either (in fact, I think Bradley says at one point that he's not physically better than a human).



Saitomaru said:


> You mean, in spite of what was posted earlier?



You mean what you seemed to admit I could be right on and the others could be right on?  A example that "could be" indicating Ed having bullet time reflexes does not constitute solid evidence that he does have bullet time reflexes.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (May 30, 2013)

Scans.

@Oman
Bradley did a on panel bullet timing feat
> Try deny the feat
> Still with the bullshit of lightning reaction speed in Avatar
> Implying that Wrath is only peak human
My god.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 30, 2013)

Oman said:


> Right, that's what I thought you would bring up.
> 
> Ultimately what it comes down to, then, is that Bradley has maybe one example of a bullet timing feat *(and even that is questionable, as I explain below).*  Because Bradley can bullet time, Ling can bullet time because he can keep up with Bradley at least a bit, and Envy can bullet time because he can keep up with Ling at least a bit, and then Mustang can bullet time because he can keep up Envy.  Is that what you're saying?



What?



> That strikes me as tenuous reasoning at best.  You're essentially allowing one character's feat to apply to a whole bunch of other characters simply because they have fought that character before.  Furthermore, if you're willing to stretch a feat that far...then *what the fudge is the problem with allowing Iroh to have lightning reaction speeds based on his one feat of reacting to natural lightning?*  You get Azula having superhuman speeds because she landed a hit on Iroh, you have Aang with superhuman reaction speeds because he can keep up with Azula, and you get Ozai with superhuman reaction speeds because he could keep up with Aang.



Sounds like a major outlier if he was then tagged by Azula.



> *It's the same damn reasoning*, yet if I were ever to bring it up in a thread you all would shoot it down.



To an extent. The biggest difference being you're basing your 'chain' off what is most likely just a outlier.



> The first two links are giving me a "This manga is licensed and not available" message.  As for the first...they're shooting him while he's in the air, right?  Isn't it possible that he's seeing where they are aiming and ascertaining how he needs to move preemptively to aimdodge?  He does something similar when escaping the train that got sabotaged: ascertaining the best path before even starting to use it.  I mean, sure it's still fast, but it's not necessarily a straight bullet timing feat.  It's not as definitive as, say, Luffy jumping in front of a whole bunch of musket shots when he first met Zoro.  There's no character statement reinforcing the idea that Bradley can dodge bullets, either (in fact, I think Bradley says at one point that he's not physically better than a human).



That sounds like a bunch of assumptions built to conveniently support your side. It'd be easier to just take the feat at face value. 



> You mean what you seemed to admit I could be right on and the others could be right on?  A example that "could be" indicating Ed having bullet time reflexes does not constitute solid evidence that he does have bullet time reflexes


.

The feat still offers a clear indication of superhuman reactions at worst. Not that this would be the only feat that gives him those kind of reactions.



> @Oman
> Bradley did a on panel bullet timing feat
> > Try deny the feat
> > Still with the bullshit of lightning reaction speed in Avatar
> ...



You know, he's probably going to claim it was aim dodging. That's how Oman operates. He downplays feats, evades questions, and continuously nitpicks at things. He even tried to argue using the outdated OBD rules thread even _after_ being told it was outdated.


----------



## Chad (May 31, 2013)

The victory should be put in the obd


----------



## Samavarti (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Right, that's what I thought you would bring up.
> 
> Ultimately what it comes down to, then, is that Bradley has maybe one example of a bullet timing feat (and even that is questionable, as I explain below).  Because Bradley can bullet time, Ling can bullet time because he can keep up with Bradley at least a bit, and Envy can bullet time because he can keep up with Ling at least a bit, and then Mustang can bullet time because he can keep up Envy.  Is that what you're saying?
> 
> ...


Never said Mustang or Envy could bullet time, they however has some degree of superhuman reactions.
And Iroh feat is an outlier.






Oman said:


> The first two links are giving me a "This manga is licensed and not available" message.  As for the first...they're shooting him while he's in the air, right?  Isn't it possible that he's seeing where they are aiming and ascertaining how he needs to move preemptively to aimdodge?  He does something similar when escaping the train that got sabotaged: ascertaining the best path before even starting to use it.  I mean, sure it's still fast, but it's not necessarily a straight bullet timing feat.  It's not as definitive as, say, Luffy jumping in front of a whole bunch of musket shots when he first met Zoro.  There's no character statement reinforcing the idea that Bradley can dodge bullets, either (in fact, I think Bradley says at one point that he's not physically better than a human).


We clearly see him movig as the bullets are still moving, and we see them shooting him before he moves, so it's clearly bullet timming.

You mean what you seemed to admit I could be right on and the others could be right on?  A example that "could be" indicating Ed having bullet time reflexes does not constitute solid evidence that he does have bullet time reflexes.


----------



## Wan (May 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Sounds like a major outlier if he was then tagged by Azula.
> 
> To an extent. The biggest difference being you're basing your 'chain' off what is most likely just a outlier.



See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  For some reason Iroh's feat gets labeled as an "outlier" while Bradley gets a free pass.  Why can't _Bradley's_ feat be an outlier because Ling gives him trouble?



> That sounds like a bunch of assumptions built to conveniently support your side. It'd be easier to just take the feat at face value.



Can you directly contradict it?



> The feat still offers a clear indication of superhuman reactions at worst. Not that this would be the only feat that gives him those kind of reactions.



No, it doesn't.  It indicates quick reactions, sure, but nothing that is necessarily superhuman.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> No, it doesn't.  It indicates quick reactions, sure, but nothing that is necessarily superhuman.


> Bullet timing isn't superhuman anymore


----------



## Samavarti (May 31, 2013)

As for the why Iroh feat is considered an outlier, and Bradley one not.
There are others bullet timming feats in FMA, and there are no contradictory feats.
On the other hand there are no similar feats to Iroh lighting timing in avatar, in a verse where characters actually have to worry about arrows.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (May 31, 2013)

Iroh's lightning in avatar can be out-rolled by a small child after it has been fired when the meteor is out if we want to talk about low showings.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> See, this is exactly what I'm talking about.  For some reason Iroh's feat gets labeled as an "outlier" while Bradley gets a free pass.  Why can't _Bradley's_ feat be an outlier because Ling gives him trouble?



Maybe because unlike Bradley's feats, the difference between Iroh's outlier and every other (more consistent) feat far more extreme than the difference between Bradley's feats and Ling's. There is also nothing contradicting Bradley's feats. The same can not be said for Iroh's outlier. Stop being dense.



> Can you directly contradict it?



Yes. They started firing at Bradley prior to his movement. That kinda puts a hole in your aimdodging theory. And he wasn't dodging one or two bullets either.



> No, it doesn't.  It indicates quick reactions, sure, but nothing that is necessarily superhuman.



Haha you're funny. Wait... you're serious, aren't you? Oh come on. Enough with the downplaying.



Louis Cyphre said:


> > Bullet timing isn't superhuman anymore



^This.


----------



## Wan (May 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Maybe because unlike Bradley's feats, the difference between Iroh's outlier and every other (more consistent) feat far more extreme than the difference between Bradley's feats and Ling's. There is also nothing contradicting Bradley's feats. The same can not be said for Iroh's outlier. Stop being dense.



What contradicts Iroh's feat, exactly?



> Yes. They started firing at Bradley prior to his movement. That kinda puts a hole in your aimdodging theory. And he wasn't dodging one or two bullets either.



Let me put it this way:

Do we have a scan of a bullet in motion with Bradley in its path?  Because that scan shows Bradley already out of the way of the bullets.



> Haha you're funny. Wait... you're serious, aren't you? Oh come on. Enough with the downplaying.



What?  What's superhuman about raising a wall before Cornello could sweep over them with his minigun?


----------



## Saitomaru (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> What contradicts Iroh's feat, exactly?



1. Him even getting touched by others.
2. Said other's getting touched by others. So  on and so forth.

Seriously, stop being dense Oman. This is getting old.



> Let me put it this way:
> 
> Do we have a scan of a bullet in motion with Bradley in its path?  Because that scan shows Bradley already out of the way of the bullets.



Because he already dodged it  

Had he still been in the bullet's path you'd be claiming that since he wasn't shown dodging it it wasn't usable.



> What?  What's superhuman about raising a wall before Cornello could sweep over them with his minigun?



Don't be dense.


----------



## Samavarti (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Do we have a scan of a bullet in motion with Bradley in its path?  Because that scan shows Bradley already out of the way of the bullets.



we see them shooting him before he moves
Here we see them shooting, next scan we see Bradley moving out of the path of the bullets, after they have been fired.


----------



## Wan (May 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> 1. Him even getting touched by others.
> 2. Said other's getting touched by others. So  on and so forth.
> 
> Seriously, stop being dense Oman. This is getting old.



The same damn thing can be said about Bradley.  Except you process it as "Those people must be superfast too" for Bradley and "Then he can't be superfast" for Iroh.  It's a double standard.



> Because he already dodged it
> 
> Had he still been in the bullet's path you'd be claiming that since he wasn't shown dodging it it wasn't usable.



If he was still in the bullet's path I would concede.



> Don't be dense.



Don't bring this up again if you can't provide an explanation.



Samavarti said:


> we see them shooting him before he moves
> Here we see them shooting, next scan we see Bradley moving out of the path of the bullets, after they have been fired.



That's not what I asked for.  At that range it can be aimdodging, anticipating the path of the bullet rather than moving out of its way once it's fired.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> The same damn thing can be said about Bradley.  Except you process it as "Those people must be superfast too" for Bradley and "Then he can't be superfast" for Iroh.  It's a double standard.



Wrong. Everyone isn't scaled to Bradley. Characters have their own feats. You're trying to scale an outrageously high outlier to other characters (some of which could barely even react to combustion man).



> If he was still in the bullet's path I would concede.



Sure you would...



> Don't bring this up again if you can't provide an explanation.



I've just grown tired of wasting time providing explanations just for you to either ignore it or nitpick at something irrelevant seemingly in an attempt to shift our focus.



> That's not what I asked for.  At that range it can be aimdodging, anticipating the path of the bullet rather than moving out of its way once it's fired.



In your opinion. But sure, for a second let's assume he just aimdodged. Can Ozai match that? What's his best feat?

Edit: I'm off for the night, I'll be back tomorrow. So don't expect any replies until then. 

Oh, and stop being dense Oman.


----------



## Expelsword (May 31, 2013)

Guns > Avatar.
Why is this thread STILL going?

Oman, if you want Ozai to win, have Roy start IC 500 feet underwater.


----------



## Lucaniel (May 31, 2013)

yo ^ (use bro)

if this match started at a longer range so that mustang didn't just have to snap his fingers to roast ozai alive, and ozai actually had a change to get a shot off...

(edit: oh, i see the second scenario allows for this)

could mustang subtract the oxygen from the intervening space and create a firebreak so ozai's attack was totally neutralised?

this hypothetical question is not directed to oman because he is wrong and i'm not paying attention to wrong people

also nice job putting sozin's comet on because you know ozai's a pussy compared to mustang, OP


----------



## Lucaniel (May 31, 2013)

actually, forget subtracting the oxygen...

back when either envy or lust doused him with water in their fight, mustang revealed that he could separate water into H and O and still burn shit

so if he can separate them, can't he just combine them from the air, and create water to block fireballs?


----------



## Expelsword (May 31, 2013)

Roy's actually a Waterbender, don't you know?

Ozai is usually given Sozin's Comet because he has no feats.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (May 31, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> actually, forget subtracting the oxygen...
> 
> back when either envy or lust doused him with water in their fight, mustang revealed that he could separate water into H and O and still burn shit
> 
> so if he can separate them, can't he just combine them from the air, and create water to block fireballs?



Or make Ozai breath water?


----------



## Lucaniel (May 31, 2013)

true 'nuff

he can also turn the air around ozai into carbon monoxide

compared to mustang, ozai has zero versatility


----------



## Expelsword (May 31, 2013)

Let's not forget he has more than just gaseous alchemy.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (May 31, 2013)

Mustang can easily create earth walls now, since EoS Mustang can use "Clap-hands-alchemy".


----------



## Expelsword (May 31, 2013)

Really?
I need to watch this whole series.

This is even worse than I thought.


----------



## Lucaniel (May 31, 2013)

oh, shit, i forgot about that

also forgot that marcoh restores his sight

ozai is so fucking boned, how did this get to seven pages???


----------



## shade0180 (May 31, 2013)

Because Oman, is retarded.


----------



## Saitomaru (May 31, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Mustang can easily create earth walls now, since EoS Mustang can use "Clap-hands-alchemy".



I too forgot about this.


----------



## Nevan (May 31, 2013)

Just going to point out that Iroh redirecting lightning was calced to be subsonic


----------



## shade0180 (May 31, 2013)

And we already know that he is Subsonic since the first page.  FMA is faster.


----------



## shade0180 (May 31, 2013)

This rape is getting better and better.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (May 31, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> This rape is getting better and better.


Give to Mustang a philosopher's stone and the rape can be bigger.


----------



## shade0180 (May 31, 2013)

I forgot this scenario has the comet, then he shouldn't need to flick since the fire he needed is already around him just like what he did with the lighter.


----------



## Wan (May 31, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Wrong. Everyone isn't scaled to Bradley. Characters have their own feats. You're trying to scale an outrageously high outlier to other characters (some of which could barely even react to combustion man).



What feats?  The only one I can think of who arguably has bullet timing feats is Scar.  Ling doesn't have such a feat of his own, Envy doesn't, and Roy doesn't.  They were all scaled to Bradley.



> Sure you would...



Meh, I'm going to concede that Bradley is a bullet-timer anyways.  I still think there's something of a double standard going on though.



> I've just grown tired of wasting time providing explanations just for you to either ignore it or nitpick at something irrelevant seemingly in an attempt to shift our focus.



You say "explanations" as if you've provided some.



> In your opinion. But sure, for a second let's assume he just aimdodged. Can Ozai match that? What's his best feat?



Presumably he can be powerscaled to Iroh's level, if the lightning feat is worth anything.  Also he kept up with Aang, who is has superspeed thanks to airbending and has a superhuman reaction feat of reacting to one of Combustion Man's explosions up close as it happened.



Louis Cyphre said:


> Mustang can easily create earth walls now, since EoS Mustang can use "Clap-hands-alchemy".



Sure, but I doubt that's really going to do anything other than cut off Mustang's own line of sight on Ozai thus inhibiting his use of flame alchemy.  Ozai can smash through a simple rock wall or arc a fireblast over it.



Nevan said:


> Just going to point out that Iroh redirecting lightning was calced to be subsonic



That seems like a pretty lowball speed for lightning, and it assumes that Iroh has perfect perception of the lightning at its origin point 2000m away.  But if we accept that conclusion, does that mean that it's not so much of an outlier anymore?  Considering that Iroh didn't object to Zuko seeking out real lightning based on not being able to react to it in "Bitter Work", and that Avatar characters commonly react to lightning generated by other benders.



Louis Cyphre said:


> *Spoiler*: _Scans of Mustang clap-hands-alchemy_



Images aren't loading.


----------



## HunterChairmanNetero (May 31, 2013)

Oman said:


> Images aren't loading.



Here's the images. 

*Spoiler*: __ 









this


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> What feats?  The only one I can think of who arguably has bullet timing feats is Scar.  Ling doesn't have such a feat of his own, Envy doesn't, and Roy doesn't.  They were all scaled to Bradley.



They are also scaled to each other and to some of their own feats (for the superhuman reactions, not bullet timing).



> Meh, I'm going to concede that Bradley is a bullet-timer anyways.  I still think there's something of a double standard going on though.



Whatever.



> You say "explanations" as if you've provided some.



>Implying I haven't.



> Presumably he can be powerscaled to Iroh's level,* if the lightning feat is worth anything*.  Also he kept up with Aang, who is has superspeed thanks to airbending and has a superhuman reaction feat of reacting to one of Combustion Man's explosions up close as it happened.



Which its not.



> Sure, but I doubt that's really going to do anything other than cut off Mustang's own line of sight on Ozai thus inhibiting his use of flame alchemy.  Ozai can smash through a simple rock wall or arc a fireblast over it.



I'd work as a means of defense. Not the kind of defense that you put up and hide behind. The kind that was shown in HCN's picture, a reactive defense.



> That seems like a pretty lowball speed for lightning, and it assumes that Iroh has perfect perception of the lightning at its origin point 2000m away.  But if we accept that conclusion, does that mean that it's not so much of an outlier anymore?



Its a calc, everything gets lowballed.



> Considering that Iroh didn't object to Zuko seeking out real lightning based on not being able to react to it in "Bitter Work", and that Avatar characters *commonly react to lightning generated by other benders.*



What does that have to do with anything?


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> That seems like a pretty lowball speed for lightning, and it assumes that Iroh has perfect perception of the lightning at its origin point 2000m away.  But if we accept that conclusion, does that mean that it's not so much of an outlier anymore?  Considering that Iroh didn't object to Zuko seeking out real lightning based on not being able to react to it in "Bitter Work", and that Avatar characters commonly react to lightning generated by other benders.



There is no prove that the lighting generated by benders, has a remotely close speed to real lighting, the only thing Iroh feat proves, is that benders lighting is also electricity, which was kinda obvious anyway, so someone dodging lighting generated by benders is as meaningful as it was before.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 1, 2013)

Hey oman 

2:10-2:13
What about that lightning feat there? 

Funcat of the day: 

Most Airbender video's consist of 95% of shitty amv's 70% of which are shitty linkin park amvs.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> There is no prove that the lighting generated by benders, has a remotely close speed to real lighting, the only thing Iroh feat proves, is that benders lighting is also electricity, which was kinda obvious anyway, so someone dodging lighting generated by benders is as meaningful as it was before.



Iroh's feat indicates that it is within the realm of Avatar characters to react to lightning in such a way.  As for bender lightning, they call it lightning.  It looks like lightning.  It acts like lightning.  If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it's a...

If you're simply going to say "It's not real lightning because it's magic lightning", I can turn the same thing back on Mustang.  "It's not a real explosion because it's a magic explosion"; "He's not separating it into real oxygen and hydrogen, he's separating it into magic oxygen and hydrogen".



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Hey oman
> 
> 2:10-2:13
> What about that lightning feat there?
> ...



What about it?  And sure, same can be said of most anime or action cartoon videos.   Viacom is really strict about not letting any of its content get uploaded to Youtube, even in short clips.  I have all of Avatar ripped to my hard drive so I can post any particular clip as needed, but they have to be really short and sometimes without sound or Viacom blocks it and puts a strike on my Youtube channel...


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Iroh's feat indicates that it is within the realm of Avatar characters to react to lightning in such a way.  As for bender lightning, they call it lightning.  It looks like lightning.  It acts like lightning.  If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it's a...



That feat was calc'd at subsonic. That's HORRIBLY slow. And going by the results had the distance between the origin and him been say... 10 meters, he'd have failed to react to it.



> If you're simply going to say "It's not real lightning because it's magic lightning", I can turn the same thing back on Mustang.  "It's not a real explosion because it's a magic explosion"; "He's not separating it into real oxygen and hydrogen, he's separating it into magic oxygen and hydrogen".



Prove bender lightning is as fast as real lightning.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> That feat was calc'd at subsonic. That's HORRIBLY slow. And going by the results had the distance between the origin and him been say... 10 meters, he'd have failed to react to it.



So we've gone from "it's a ridiculous feat, so it's an outlier" to "it's a crappy feat anyways".  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  It is amusing though to think of the other consequences of the idea that Iroh can perfectly perceive and track lightning from its point of origin in the clouds all the way to when it hits him.



> Prove bender lightning is as fast as real lightning.



Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.


----------



## Eldritch Sukima (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> That feat was calc'd at subsonic. That's HORRIBLY slow. And going by the results had the distance between the origin and him been say... 10 meters, he'd have failed to react to it.



While we're on the subject, how fast has Roy been calced to be?

Or is this entire speed debate completely pointless?


----------



## Amae (Jun 1, 2013)

More than likely the latter, Sukima.  



Oman said:


> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.


Get out.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.




You're making fool of yourself.
Is a general rule in battledome that if a lightning is generated via "magical" ways, it don't act like the real one.
Of course with exceptions, which don't apply to Avatar.


----------



## Ice (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:
			
		

> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.


Are you retarded?


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Iroh's feat indicates that it is within the realm of Avatar characters to react to lightning in such a way.  As for bender lightning, they call it lightning.  It looks like lightning.  It acts like lightning.  If it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, then it's a...


It doesn't act like lighting though, there is no sonic boom due air super heating, and blow things up, unlike normal lighting.
And Iroh feat was calced subsonic, so it proves that it is within the realm of Avatar characters to react to subsonic speeds.



Oman said:


> If you're simply going to say "It's not real lightning because it's magic lightning", I can turn the same thing back on Mustang.  "It's not a real explosion because it's a magic explosion"; "*He's not separating it into real oxygen and hydrogen, he's separating it into magic oxygen and hydrogen".*


I already said it's electricity, but being electricity doesn't suddenly make it lighting speed.
Also the bolded is retarded Straw Man.


----------



## Es (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

My point is not that Mustang's alchemy does not create actual oxygen or hydrogen.  I'm getting at something here; what is the reason to assume Mustang's alchemy creates actual oxygen and hydrogen?



Louis Cyphre said:


> You're making fool of himself.
> Is a general rule in battledome that if a lightning is generated via "magical" ways, it don't act like the real one.
> Of course with exceptions, which don't apply to Avatar.



Eh?   I don't see that in any of the rules threads.



Samavarti said:


> It doesn't act like lighting though, there is no sonic boom due air super heating, and blow things up, unlike normal lighting.
> And Iroh feat was calced subsonic, so it proves that it is within the realm of Avatar characters to react to subsonic speeds.



Firebenders generally seem to be protected from the effect of whatever they do.  The heat of their fire doesn't burn them, stray forks from their lightning doesn't electrocute them.  So they wouldn't be thrown back from the superheating of the air from lightning.  Thunder does occur when a bender makes lightning.


----------



## Expelsword (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.



There was taking Itachi vs. Kid Buu to 52 pages... and then...
This.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> There was taking Itachi vs. Kid Buu to 52 pages... and then...
> This.



That...actually happened?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> What about it?



Aang had enough time to roll ahead of it after it had been fired, turn around and catch it in the span of around 3 seconds. (inb4 Aang is lightning speed)


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Aang had enough time to roll ahead of it after it had been fired, turn around and catch it in the span of around 3 seconds.



And?  Why can't that indicate high reaction speeds for Aang as well?  Aang has his own feat separate from lightning reacting which indicates supersonic reaction speeds, FWIW.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> My point is not that Mustang's alchemy does not create actual oxygen or hydrogen.  I'm getting at something here; what is the reason to assume Mustang's alchemy creates actual oxygen and hydrogen?



Because he doesn't create them The element is in the Air/water(Oxygen/Hydrogen)... In the scan he separated the oxygen from the hydrogen that existed in the water as it was explained. He did not produce it like the bender creating lightning from thin air... And in this scenario he just need to move the oxygen molecules to the right spot which is around Ozai which he can do as shown with the water scan or any other scan that has already been posted...


----------



## kpallei (Jun 1, 2013)

mustang kills him with ease


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Because he doesn't create them The element is in the Air/water(Oxygen/Hydrogen)... In the scan he separated the oxygen from the hydrogen that existed in the water as it was explained. He did not produce it like the bender creating lightning from thin air... And in this scenario he just need to move the oxygen molecules to the right spot which is around Ozai which he can do as shown with the water scan or any other scan that has already been posted...



Thank you for at least giving me an answer.

My point is that you are accepting the explanation and the words used in it as the proof of it actually being "oxygen" and "hydrogen".  You're taking it at face value.  Yet somehow this does not extend to when Avatar characters call what they make "lightning".


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

No, I'm not. the feat was shown, the object use was also shown, if the water was missing then that is a questionable statement. But it wasn't and alchemy has been explained through out the series as equivalent exchange unless you are holding a philosopher stone which can ignore it.. With normal alchemy you cannot turn a wood into a stone or a metal, you cannot produce something out of nothing... That's the whole point Mustang cannot create Oxygen unless it was already there for him which was already there to begin with... he just need to shift it around which is one of his ability.

Damn. I got negged by Oman.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> No I'm not the feat was shown the object use was also shown if the water was missing then that is a questionable statement but it wasn't and alchemy has been explained through out the series as equivalent exchange unless you are holding a philosopher stone which can ignore it.. With normal alchemy you cannot turn a wood into a stone or a metal, you cannot produce something out of nothing... That's the whole point Mustang cannot create Oxygen unless it was already there for him which was already there to begin with... he just need to shift it around which is one of his ability.



But how do you know, other than him calling it "oxygen", that it didn't just create something that acted like oxygen but wasn't really oxygen?  And alchemists can do stuff like making stone into metal; see every time Ed pulls a spear with a metal head out of the ground.



shade0180 said:


> Damn. I got negged by Oman.



Which I'm actually sort of regretting, since you did at least entertain my question.  I went to +rep you, but I couldn't because I negged you earlier.  :S But the post was blatantly calling me retarded, which is something I could report you for, but I'm didn't.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

You're so thick I don't even think you have a brain in your head. Seriously that's what I'm getting from every response you have posted so far.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> You're so thick I don't even think you have a brain in your head.



Careful now, I might just think you aren't being facetious.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Ed pulls those spears from the ground and The ground isn't just a bunch of stone it has metals..  

and when Ed made gold He used some gold coin.. he didn't just blatantly made it out of thin air 



> Creating gold using alchemy is illegal. If anyone knew that a state alchemist had used alchemy to create gold, he or she would be immediately stripped of their title by the military. Despite that, after some thought, Ed takes some gold coins and alchemically mixes them with some dust and coal dirt to create fake gold bars when no one is looking. He then uses these gold bars to buy the Youswell deed from Yoki which Ed then sells back to the people of Youswell in exchange for one night's stay at the inn. Yoki's new stash of gold then turns back into the dirt and coal dust that it was created from.


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Ed pulls those spears from the ground and The ground isn't just a bunch of stone it has metals..
> 
> and when Ed made gold He used some gold coin.. he didn't just blatantly made it out of thin air



If there's any metal in the ground, it's in very, very trace amounts; not enough to make a spearhead.  And you do realize that the fact that there is a _law_ against creating gold through alchemy implies that it is _possible_ to create gold through alchemy?  Ed just fakes doing it.  Gold is an element, so that indicates that turning one element into another with alchemy is possible.


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

He still use gold to make gold which is still gold same with the spear head he used metal from the ground to make metal which is still metal.. See this is getting retarded since I need to practically explain this things and you wouldn't even understand or try to understand it....


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> And?  Why can't that indicate high reaction speeds for Aang as well?  Aang has his own feat separate from lightning reacting which indicates supersonic reaction speeds, FWIW.



Do you know how fast actual lightning is Oman?
I'm thinking you don't if you are going to bring up only super sonic reaction speeds to try to support it being so.



shade0180 said:


> He still use gold to make gold which is still gold same with the spear head he used metal from the ground to make metal which is still metal.. See this is getting retarded since I need to practically explain this things and you wouldn't even understand or try to understand it....



If he's a troll he's doing an awful job at it.
You are supposed to make people mad not make them laugh at you like a clown.
If he can't understand a simple concept like plated gold


----------



## Wan (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> He still use gold to make gold which is still gold same with the spear head he used metal from the ground to make metal which is still metal.. See this is getting retarded since I need to practically explain this things and you wouldn't even understand or try to understand it....



He didn't actually make gold, he made something that looked like full-on gold, according to the thing you quoted.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> Do you know how fast actual lightning is Oman?
> I'm thinking you don't if you are going to bring up only super sonic reaction speeds to try to support it being so.



According to an earlier post it's 150 km/s.



> If he's a troll he's doing an awful job at it.
> You are supposed to make people mad not make them laugh at you like a clown.
> If he can't understand a simple concept like plated gold



I don't like making people mad though.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> He didn't actually make gold, he made something that looked like full-on gold, according to the thing you quoted.



Yes,you got it he didn't make gold.


Oman said:


> According to an earlier post it's 150 km/s.



441.17647058824 Ma 
vs
mach 1 0.34 kms
I'm sorry but super sonic doesn't cut it.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

This debate again? It's almost as fucking old as I am in the OBD

Waterbenders don't bend magical water
Earthbenders don't bend magical earth
Airbenders don't bend magical air

Avatar goes through great pains to demonstrate that they produce elements as they are measured in Nature.
Iroh gives a small lecture about how in order to produce lightning, a firebender has to use his fire weilding powers to separate positive and negative static fields

Legend of Korra put this whole issue behind the sed and shot it when it demonstrated an entire industry revolving around the production and storage of firebending generated electricity, for all their purposes


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

The debate was if those electricity was as fast as real lightning though. Not if they're magical or not... Well someone did claim it to be magical property..


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Iroh's bending of atmospheric lightning alone renders that question moot, without having to go around with the logical dissonance that is accepting we're talking of shared given factoid such as the "speed of real lightning"


----------



## Ice (Jun 1, 2013)

So Ban, do you think that the lightning produced by benders are the same as those produced during lightning storms or just electricity formed by them?


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> So we've gone from "it's a ridiculous feat, so it's an outlier" to "it's a crappy feat anyways".  Damned if you do, damned if you don't.  It is amusing though to think of the other consequences of the idea that Iroh can perfectly perceive and track lightning from its point of origin in the clouds all the way to when it hits him.
> 
> 
> 
> Prove the "hydrogen and oxygen" Mustang makes is real hydrogen and oxygen.



Already answered by someone else.



Oman said:


> And?  Why can't that indicate high reaction speeds for Aang as well?  Aang has his own feat separate from lightning reacting which indicates supersonic reaction speeds, FWIW.



What supersonic feat? Could I get a link?



Oman said:


> But how do you know, other than him calling it "oxygen", that it didn't just create something that acted like oxygen but wasn't really oxygen?  And alchemists can do stuff like making stone into metal; see every time Ed pulls a spear with a metal head out of the ground.



Were his spears ever actually stated to have metal spear heads?



Banhammer said:


> This debate again? It's almost as fucking old as I am in the OBD
> 
> Waterbenders don't bend magical water
> Earthbenders don't bend magical earth
> ...





Banhammer said:


> Iroh's bending of atmospheric lightning alone renders that question moot, without having to go around with the logical dissonance that is accepting we're talking of shared given factoid such as the "speed of real lightning"



And how does any of that prove their bender lightning moves at the same speed (or roughly the same speed) as real cloud to ground lightning would? The Iroh feat being calc'd at subsonic speeds doesn't support the idea that what they're shooting around is actually traveling at hypersonic speeds. And it is not logical to take a subsonic feat and use that to powerscale them to having hypersonic reactions courtesy of dodging each other's bender lightning.

Also, what's being debated here is isn't whether bender lightning is electricity. It's the speed. Which is rather important. Also, your recount of the lecture (bolded it for convenience) is incorrect but did make your point sound extremely believable. The exact quote is below:



> "There is energy all around us, the energy is both Yin and Yang. Positive energy and negative energy. Only a select few firebenders can separate these energies. This creates an imbalance, the energy wants to restore balance and in the moment the positive energy and the negative energy come crashing back together. You provide release and guidance, creating lightning"  **He then proceeds to show lightning bending off**
> "Remember, once you separate the energy you do not command it you are simply its humble guide. Breathe first."



Just an FYI the punctuation of the quote may not be exact but the words are all straight from the VA's mouth.


----------



## Qinglong (Jun 1, 2013)

The supersonic feat is Aang reacting to Combustion Man's blast at close range, which previously caused sonic booms, iirc


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

Oman said:


> Firebenders generally seem to be protected from the effect of whatever they do.  The heat of their fire doesn't burn them, stray forks from their lightning doesn't electrocute them.  So they wouldn't be thrown back from the superheating of the air from lightning.  Thunder does occur when a bender makes lightning.



Being protected would mean that just like the fire doesn't burn them, the sonic boom doesn't affect them, but there is not sonic boom at all.
There is also the fact that if it was a hot as lighting either no one in would survive it, or normal fire would mean jack shit, and since people have survived it and and they can still be hurt by normal fire, it means it's clearly not as hot as lighting.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> The supersonic feat is Aang reacting to Combustion Man's blast at close range, which previously caused sonic booms, iirc



Okay, thanks.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

Actually i think it was more about Aang reacting to an explosion caused by Combustion Man.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Axel Almer said:


> So Ban, do you think that the lightning produced by benders are the same as those produced during lightning storms or just electricity formed by them?


I believe it's a non-issue


Saitomaru said:


> Also, what's being debated here is isn't whether bender lightning is electricity. It's the speed. Which is rather important. Also, your recount of the lecture (bolded it for convenience) is incorrect but did make your point sound extremely believable. The exact quote is below:



1st) Point is moot. I don't know where you're getting all these "gee, we have to measure the speed of lightning now".
 It's beyond reasonable OBD argumentation to start dregging some drift velocity nonsense just because we are that unwilling to just give the same speed all other lightning evaluations in physics get in the OBD.
But if it matters that much to you, fine, you can just get a common reference
Atmospheric lightning is bent by Iroh just as normally as he lightning that could blow shit on mountain faces that people like Azula produced.

2nd) Iroh gives you the best scientifical language a pre-medieval budist old man can give you.
Don't play dumb on it, they give more than enough sensible context for you to do a little legwork here.


----------



## Amae (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> Atmospheric lightning is bent by Iroh just as normally as he lightning that could blow shit on mountain faces that people like Azula produced.


That feat of  is also stronger than natural cloud to ground lightning. Not entirely relevant, but interesting and shameless advertisement.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> 1st) Point is moot. I don't know where you're getting all these "gee, we have to measure the speed of lightning now".
> It's beyond reasonable OBD argumentation to start dregging some drift velocity nonsense just because we are that unwilling to just give the same speed all other lightning evaluations in physics get in the OBD.
> But if it matters that much to you, fine, you can just get a common reference
> Atmospheric lightning is bent by Iroh just as normally as he lightning that could blow shit on mountain faces that people like Azula produced.



Yet again, you seem to not be getting the point. Its not about whether or not what they're bending is electricity or not. Its about the speed of that which they're bending. It is not a moot point just because you say so, and is far from beyond reasonable. To take characters who's best feats put them at subsonic (Iroh's lightning feat) and Supersonic (Aang's combustion man feat) and assume that they've also been dodging and reacting to Mach 100+ (cover all the speed discrepancies here and lowball it) bolts of electricity is beyond ridiculous without anything to actually support it.

TL;DR- Prove bender lightning is as fast as real (cloud to ground) lightning. It is not reasonable to just assume it is, especially given they're one real lightning timing feat was only calc'd to be subsonic.




> 2nd) Iroh gives you the best scientifical language a pre-medieval budist old man can give you.
> Don't play dumb on it, they give more than enough sensible context for you to do a little legwork here.



I'm not playing dumb. But his explanation COULD be a mystical way of explaining lightning. Or it could just be a mystical way of explaining the generation of mystical lightning. He references energy (yin, yang, positive, negative) repeatedly and the Guru guy (the one who helped Aang) explained that benders utilized their chakras to bend. I don't know the exact quote because I'm too lazy to go look up the episode, skip through it, and take down the quote word for word. 

Going by that, it is also possible for it to be 'magical lightning' that has some of the properties of electricity and some that electricity doesn't have.

But none of that matters. The important thing here is its speed.


----------



## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

Not an expert on electricity, and by not an expert i mean i know jack shit about it, but wouldn't Iroh explanation just mean the Lighting bending is electric discharge, which doesn't necessarily means it's as fast as lighting.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

hey ^ (use bro)

stop getting bogged down in minutiae

and stop wasting time with oman

mustang can neutralise anything ozai does and has innumerable different ways to kill him

mustang wins

end


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

> TL;DR- Prove bender lightning is as fast as real (cloud to ground) lightning.



No. 
Might as well ask me if bender water is as wet as regular water


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Water bending speed is dependent on the bender. Why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
Fire bending is dependent on the speed of the bender. Why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
earth bending is also dependent on the speed of the bender why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
air bending is also dependent on Aang/Air benders speed so why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?

Now answer this if the speed of the bended element is always dependent on the speed of the bender why is lightning going to get a lightning speed from a natural lightning?


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Because that is not what lightning is.
Speed is to lightning the same way wet is to water, transparent is to air, and heavy is to stone


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> No.
> Might as well ask me if bender water is as wet as regular water



Concession accepted. I'm not asking you to prove that bender lightning and RL electricity have similar characteristics. I'm just asking you to prove it is as fast as real (cloud to ground) lightning. It being that fast is not a logical assumption either. Why? Because they're only feat (unless there is another feat I'm unaware of) was calc'd at subsonic speeds. That wouldn't allow for extrapolation/scaling that would put their bender lightning at MHS speeds. And it would actually serve to contradict the idea.



Banhammer said:


> Because that is not what lightning is. Lightning is energy
> Speed is to lightning the same way wet is to water, transparent is to air, and heavy is to stone



That's bullshit. Prove your claim or concede.


----------



## Fujita (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Water bending speed is dependent on the bender. Why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
> Fire bending is dependent on the speed of the bender. Why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
> earth bending is also dependent on the speed of the bender why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
> air bending is also dependent on Aang/Air benders speed so why wouldn't lightning bending be the same?
> ...





			
				Jeong Jeong said:
			
		

> How can I teach you if you refuse to listen? Before learning firebending you must learn water and earth. Water is cool and soothing, earth is steady and stable, but fire... Fire is alive, it breathes, it grows. *Without the bender, a rock will not throw itself*, but fire will spread and destroy everything in its path if one does not have the will to control it, THAT is its destiny! You are not ready! You are too weak!



Water, earth, air, fire, don't have any intrinsic speed. 

Electrical discharge? Not the case. 

Kind of a poor comparison there.


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Your lack of knowledge on what lightning is does not equal to a concession.
If you had any grasp on it, you'd know how dumb it is to ask me to prove the speed of non-magic lightning


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Water, earth, air, fire, don't have any intrinsic speed.
> 
> Electrical discharge? Not the case.
> 
> Kind of a poor comparison there.



Jeong Jeong is a true professor of Banhammer science


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> Because that is not what lightning is.
> Speed is to lightning the same way wet is to water, transparent is to air, and heavy is to stone



And lightning changes speed your comparing the characteristic of water from the speed of lightning.. 

Water Bender's Water can wet and Fire bender lightning can burn/electrocute.. See this sound more logical than what you are comparing they are the same property as what they represent speed is totally different from what you are trying to compare. 

What you are saying is light is always light speed because it's light which is a stupid logic When fiction is involve.


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

> What you are saying is light is always light speed because it's light which is a stupid logic When fiction is involve.



This is a stupidly biased criteria. We accept universal physical constants when there is no supernatural interference in order for us to make calcs

Gravity accelerates at fucking gravity because it's gravity


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

> This is a stupidly biased criteria. We accept universal physical constants when there is no supernatural interference in order for us to make calcs
> 
> Gravity accelerates at fucking gravity because it's gravity




And bending lightning is not a supernatural interference? 

Can you do it in the real world?  can you show me of anyone bending lightning in the real world?


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> Your lack of knowledge on what lightning is does not equal to a concession.
> If you had any grasp on it, you'd know how dumb it is to ask me to prove the speed of non-magic lightning



Still bullshittting I see. It is not logical to assume previously subsonic characters are also throwing around and reacting to MHS attacks. Not when the more likely assumption would be that their bender lightning (like so many other cases of fictional 'lightning attacks') is just not as fast as RL lightning.

My asking you to prove it is as fast as you're claiming (and you assuming its non-magical when other signs point toward it being anything but) is perfectly reasonable. What is dumb is you assuming it is X fast with nothing to support your assumption.



> This is a stupidly biased criteria. We accept universal physical constants when there is no supernatural interference in order for us to make calcs
> 
> Gravity accelerates at fucking gravity because it's gravity



See, this would be perfectly reasonable if they were pulling the lightning down from the clouds (sort of like Kirin from _that_ series). But they aren't. They're generating it themselves through means that were explained either poorly (what with the lack of scientific know how) or fairly well (its magical). 

Benders in general manipulate pre-existing 'elements' (firebenders too a different degree). And in lightning generation it sounds like it should be just as reasonable to assume its normal lightning. The problem comes along when:

-Previously subsonic characters react to it.
-It doesn't create many of the things real lightning would (super-heated air being one)
-It does things real lightning doesn't do.

The LoK power plants tell us that it probably is electricity. But it being electricity does not mean it has lightning speed or is lightning.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

You're approaching professor unknown levels.

Bending does not affect the intrinsic property of the bent elements

As demonstrated by the ridiculousness evidenced when one asks you to proove bent water isn't wet


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Nope but bend water gains/loses speed.   Bend earth gains/loses speed. Bend air gains/loses speed. 

And that water loses wetness logic won't fly here since you are comparing property from speed. The same way lightning electrocutes/burns as I have said before speed is something that can be changed..


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Jun 1, 2013)

If you use ki/chakra sure you can.
I'm a firebender by the way 
Also bad argument
Since most of fictional character used here are supernaturals.
A example is Sasuke Sarutobi (SDK) or any son of Zeus/Jupiter from Percy Jackson series, they use real lightnings
But firebenders from Avatar create an imbalance between yin - yang and generate electricity.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Still bullshittting I see. It is not logical to assume previously subsonic characters are also throwing around and reacting to MHS attacks.


What the hell are you talking about, I'm talking about lightning here



> Not when the more likely assumption would be that their bender lightning (like so many other cases of fictional 'lightning attacks') is just not as fast as RL lightning.


No it's fucking not.
It's the dumbest assumption you can make
There are miriads of reasonable in-universe contextualized explanations that allow for lightning speed without bullshitting with the OH BUT THESE GUYS THAT DON'T LINE UP WITH THE SHIT I WANT, THEY ARE AN EXCEPTION


> My asking you to prove it is as fast as you're claiming (and you assuming its non-magical when other signs point toward it being anything but) is perfectly reasonable. What is dumb is you assuming it is X fast with nothing to support your assumption.


What you call "nothing" I call "grade level grasp on science" and "the entire series as context"

Do go on with it though. My mom has a taser. According to your logic, that mean she is either lightspeed, or that her batteries are magic.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Nope but bend water gains/loses speed.   Bend earth gains/loses speed. Bend air gains/loses speed.


professor unknown levels


> And that water loses wetness logic won't fly here since you are comparing property from speed. The same way lightning electrocutes/burns as I have said before speed is something that can be changed..



Oh sweet god, you can't be this clueless
Do you know HOW fire/ electricity burns/shocks?

Do you even know what a BURN is?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

shade, saitomaru, jeong jeong, why don't you guys just accept that people with subsonic reactions can react to ozai's lightning and run with that, instead of trying to argue that the lightning is intrinsically slower

what you've got there is an inconsistency, but you get those in fiction written by people who apparently don't even know that lightning is fast


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

It's my fault. I assumed I wasn't talking to pre-historian greeks


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> professor unknown levels
> 
> 
> Oh sweet god, you can't be this clueless
> ...



It's an effect when something is hit by lightning which is a property of lighting like the wetness of water you are comparing to speed of the element. the heat of the fire. the solidness of a rock. now concession accepted


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> *It's an effect when something is hit by lightning which is a property of lighting* like the wetness of water you are comparing to speed of the element. the heat of the fire. the solidness of a rock. now concession accepted



Oh my god

You really are that clueless.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

You seriously just claimed lightning is made of SHOCK


I can't even... what


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> It's an effect when something is hit by lightning which is a property of lighting like the wetness of water you are comparing to speed of the element. the heat of the fire. the solidness of a rock. now concession accepted



that was legitimately the sort of thing i'd expect to hear from unknown


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

I'm not even sure what you are proving with that statement.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> You're approaching professor unknown levels.
> 
> Bending does not affect the intrinsic property of the bent elements
> 
> As demonstrated by the ridiculousness evidenced when one asks you to proove bent water isn't wet



How does water being wet prove bender electricity is lightning speed?



Banhammer said:


> What the hell are you talking about, I'm talking about lightning here



So was I.



> No it's fucking not.
> It's the dumbest assumption you can make
> There are *miriads of reasonable in-universe contextualized explanations* that allow for lightning speed without bullshitting with the OH BUT THESE GUYS THAT DON'T LINE UP WITH THE SHIT I WANT, THEY ARE AN EXCEPTION



Provide them. Iroh's feat was calc'd and the results were subsonic.



> What you call "nothing" I call "grade level grasp on science" and "the entire series as context"



Yeah, because grade school explains how a person with subsonic reactions is supposedly reacting to MHS bender electricity...



> Do go on with it though. My mom has a taser. According to your logic, that mean she is either lightspeed, or that her batteries are magic.



Yeah, because a taser is the same as lightning... I'm sorry but that was by far the shittiest analogy used in this thread so far.



> why don't you guys just accept that people with subsonic reactions can react to ozai's lightning and run with that, instead of trying to argue that the lightning is intrinsically slower
> 
> what you've got there is an inconsistency, but you get those in fiction written by people who apparently don't even know that lightning is fast



Because that makes no fucking sense unless their bender lightning is subsonic/supersonic. Banhammer has yet to provide anything that proves what they're hurling around is actually lightning or of comparable speeds. He is just trying to dismiss it as a logical assumption. Which it isn't. It makes more sense for it to just fall into the fictional lightning attack category wherein lightning attacks vary wildly in speed. In this case, subsonic speeds.


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

> Because that makes no fucking sense unless their bender lightning is subsonic/supersonic. Banhammer has yet to provide anything that proves what they're hurling around is actually lightning or of comparable speeds. He is just trying to dismiss it as a logical assumption. Which it isn't. It makes more sense for it to just fall into the fictional lightning attack category wherein lightning attacks vary wildly in speed. In this case, subsonic speeds.



i'm aware it makes no sense

that's why i said it's an inconsistency

my point is that mustang's reactions are as good if not better than those of anyone who's reacted to ATLA lightning and so this debate is totally unnecessary


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i'm aware it makes no sense
> 
> that's why i said it's an inconsistency
> 
> my point is that mustang's reactions are as good if not better than those of *anyone who's reacted to ATLA lightning* and so this debate is totally unnecessary



See, that's my point. People in this thread are trying to take the bolded, slap it together with the 'it looks like lightning and therefore is', and come out with Avatar characters with MHS reactions. Thus countering the underlined. It makes no sense for their bender electricity to be that fast. It is more likely that their bender electricity is like many other fictional lightning attacks (Not lightning speed).


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

> Yeah, because a taser is the same as lightning...



?_? 

Dear Lord.

Did the point trully fly that far out of your head, or did you just put in the sand.
Listen to yourself for a second and then do try to express some sort of doubt instead of NUH-HUH

If you think currents from friebenders should be slower than natural, explain why, considering fb's electricity is non-magical, AND that they have at least, atmospheric analogous in their history


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> See, that's my point. People in this thread are trying to take the bolded, slap it together with the 'it looks like lightning and therefore is', and come out with Avatar characters with MHS reactions. Thus countering the underlined. It makes no sense for their bender electricity to be that fast. It is more likely that their bender electricity is like many other fictional lightning attacks (Not lightning speed).



Mr head-in-the-sand man

At no point did I go on about anything relating to Avatar relfexes

(At least on purpose)

That was your fanfic

Probably because you wanted your conclusion of "Roy wins" first, and then tried to find justifications


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> See, that's my point. People in this thread are trying to take the bolded, slap it together with the 'it looks like lightning and therefore is', and come out with Avatar characters with MHS reactions. Thus countering the underlined. It makes no sense for their bender electricity to be that fast. It is more likely that their bender electricity is like many other fictional lightning attacks (Not lightning speed).



for god's sake

read over everything ban said

at no point did he ever even address the reflexes of ATLA characters

all he talked about was the lightning itself


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

yea he didn't say anything about the match except for the lightning being lightning speed. Well I need some sleep. 2 AM here.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Nu OBD'ers sometimes
I swear


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

But I did provide evidence the currents have the same speed 
On my very first post

Legend of Korra has an electricity based industry
Machinery wouldn't work if bender power didn't have the same "speed"


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> ?_?
> 
> Dear Lord.
> 
> ...



The problem comes about when you assume their electricity is non-'magical' (not truly the word I'm looking for but it works) and situation where they redirected lightning was calc'd at subsonic speeds. Actually, I'll just call it fictional lightning because magical doesn't fit. Its their stats that make me doubt their fictional lightning is as fast as non-fictional lightning. Iroh's feat coupled with their reaction feats against their fictional lightning leads me to believe that their is something different here.

There is also the lack of calcs for their fictional lightning. And the fact that when I ask for proof of its speed you choose to fall back on reasoning that is only supported if we assume their fictional-lightning is 'non-magical'. An assumption which, given Iroh's explanation, given the guru's explanation of chakras, and given its feats of the feats of those who react to it, isn't quite a solid assumption.



Banhammer said:


> Mr head-in-the-sand man
> 
> At no point did I go on about anything relating to Avatar relfexes
> 
> ...



Yeah, because you're the only person in this thread arguing for the Avatar side. Right? Wrong.


----------



## Expelsword (Jun 1, 2013)

This is getting way off-base.

Roy wins.


----------



## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> for god's sake
> 
> read over everything ban said
> 
> ...



How about you re-read what I said and then realize Ban is/was not the only person arguing FOR Avatarverse here in this thread. You guys can be incredibly unobservant/forgetful sometimes.



Banhammer said:


> But I did provide evidence the currents have the same speed
> On my very first post
> 
> Legend of Korra has an electricity based industry
> Machinery wouldn't work if bender power didn't have the same "speed"



Can you prove this? Meaning, can you prove that this would require bender lightning to travel as fast as lightning?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> The problem comes about when you assume their electricity is non-'magical' (not truly the word I'm looking for but it works)


It is though
Already demonstrated
You don't get to call in an exception just because it's the one case that you don't like


> Yeah, because you're the only person in this thread arguing for the Avatar side. Right? Wrong.



More like because it's only platform you try to lean on when you're not crashing flat against any of my argumentations
I talk about bent lightning and you instantly run to Reflexes every time
You even directly asked me to present evidence of their actual reflexes


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Is that enough for you, or should I leave before you accuse me of supporting tibetian genocide on account of arguing this one thing in favor of a firelord?


----------



## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> How about you re-read what I said and then realize Ban is/was not the only person arguing FOR Avatarverse here in this thread. You guys can be incredibly unobservant/forgetful sometimes.



so what             ?


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Can you prove this? Meaning, can you prove that this would require bender lightning to travel as fast as lightning?



Sure I can




Bending is shown in the entire series to use only the existing elements, and never manipulating one's intrinsic properties, such as density on earth, or in lightning's case, flow.
The burden of proof that lightningbending is the exception of a seven years old series falls on you


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

A current can move as slow as well. 

Just read this.

Last-Airbender-VS-Ororo-Munroe


*Spoiler*: __ 



 Average moving velocity of free electrons is only 1.15m per second, which is 4.1km per hour, and it's about the same as walking speed of human. That Machinery goes down to this.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

yes it can.
It depends on charge.
Considering that they can handle at least atmospheric charges, that, is a complete fucking non-issue


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

We use low end for this kind of things.


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Besides, your entire article revolves around the shifts of speed on different conductors
The conductor is always the same, so once again, non issue


----------



## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> We use low end for this kind of things.



Atmosphere lightning _is_ low end.
Azula alone could top it


Jesus, just stop pretending you're not out of your dept


----------



## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Why is it non issue the example you gave is machinary which perfectly fits the explanation.


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

And stop raping the noworries smile
You may legitimately love it, but it doesn't consent to what you're doing to it


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Why is it non issue the example you gave is machinary which perfectly fits the explanation.



No it doesn't.
If you have a weaker current than the one required to power the industry, it will just de-charge faster than you can charge it


Professor.


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## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

Concession.  or are you going to answer why it is a non-issue?


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> It is though
> Already demonstrated
> You don't get to call in an exception just because it's the one case that you don't like



This has nothing to do with what I like.



> More like because it's only platform you try to lean on when you're not crashing flat against any of my argumentations
> I talk about bent lightning and you instantly run to Reflexes every time
> You even directly asked me to present evidence of their actual reflexes



No, you and Lucaniel were just wrong. Get over it. Just because you aren't the one speaking on how this would affect Avatarverse reactions doesn't mean no one is/was. And did I really ask you to provide proof of their reflexes (I forgot)? I could have sworn I've spent this whole time asking you to prove their bender electricity is MHS GIVEN their reaction feats and their feats of reacting to and redirecting said bender electricity.



Banhammer said:


> Is that enough for you, or should I leave before you accuse me of supporting tibetian genocide on account of arguing this one thing in favor of a firelord?



What?



Lucaniel said:


> so what             ?



So you're wrong in assuming I was referring to Ban. Especially when I left out the name of who I was referring to.



Banhammer said:


> Sure I can



Okay, I read over the bulk of that and the only thing that seemed relevant (correct me if I just stupidly missed what was important) was the electric current article and the article on amperes. This is where my understanding stops, how do these relate? Are you talking about the fact that (IIRC) it takes very high voltage to create arcs? But (yet again: IIRC) you can have high voltage with low amperage, and I thought that Amps were what mattered in terms of lethality. And how would this correlate to speed?



> yes it can.
> It depends on charge.
> Considering that they can handle at least atmospheric charges, that, is a complete fucking non-issue



Okay, I'm starting to understand what you're getting at a little more (well, I think I am). But being able to handle atmospheric charges would not mean they can output something equal. Would it? As Iroh said, they don't control it. They just guide it (provide the path).


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Lol, shade now you're just embarrassing yourself


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So you're wrong in assuming I was referring to Ban. Especially when I left out the name of who I was referring to.



ban is the one you've been arguing with for like the last three pages

what are you talking about


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I could have sworn I've spent this whole time asking you to prove their bender electricity is MHS GIVEN their reaction feats and their feats of reacting to and redirecting said bender electricity.



which is based on your incorrect assumption that these reaction feats mean the electricity isn't proper electricity

what you should actually be assuming is that the showrunners don't know shit about the speed of lightning and thus moving on


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> This has nothing to do with what I like.



ahem



			
				Banhammer said:
			
		

> Bending is shown in the entire series to use only the existing elements, and never manipulating one's intrinsic properties, such as density on earth, or in lightning's case, flow.
> The burden of proof that lightningbending is the exception of a seven years old series falls on you





> No, you and Lucaniel were just wrong. Get over it. Just because you aren't the one speaking on how this would affect Avatarverse reactions doesn't mean no one is/was.


You posted in response to me


> And did I really ask you to provide proof of their reflexes (I forgot)? I could have sworn I've spent this whole time asking you to prove their bender electricity is MHS GIVEN their reaction feats and their feats of reacting to and redirecting said bender electricity.


So you are slapping two difrent arguments together  and then trying to come off with the conclusion that ATLA characters are not.



> What?


You slap two difrent arguments to assume victory says I.
Jee, it wasn't that hard



> So you're wrong in assuming I was referring to Ban. Especially when I left out the name of who I was referring to.


?_?



> Okay, I read over the bulk of that and the only thing that seemed relevant (correct me if I just stupidly missed what was important) was the electric current article and the article on amperes. This is where my understanding stops, how do these relate? Are you talking about the fact that (IIRC) it takes very high voltage to create arcs? But (yet again: IIRC) you can have high voltage with low amperage, and I thought that Amps were what mattered in terms of lethality. And how would this correlate to speed?


Jeez, if you really don't know this, why are you arguing against it?
It chores your opposition into either having to give cumbersome lectures or to "concede"
It's not kosher

You have a minimum in Iroh and the storm. Azula's, Ozai's and the Industry have more.
Extrapolate from that


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> ban is the one you've been arguing with for like the last three pages
> 
> what are you talking about



 He's not the only person I've argued with in this thread nor is he the person who originally (in this thread) brought up bender electricity. You fucking insulted the guy outright. How do you not know who I'm talking about?


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

You should really follow lucaniel's advice and try to invalidate the reflex feat, then to play the pre-historian proletariate and say "magic did it, prove I'm wrong"


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> He's not the only person I've argued with in this thread nor is he the person who originally (in this thread) brought up bender electricity. You fucking insulted the guy outright. How do you not know who I'm talking about?



i'm wonder why you keep bringing him up like he's relevant 

his presence has nothing to do with your ability to cease quibbling about how avatar lightning isn't real lightning when it has a nominally accurate way of being generated and industrial applications


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## shade0180 (Jun 1, 2013)

We could call it an outlier but that wouldn't fly by.. 

Or would it?


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

No, it wouldn't
But not for any reasons that I have presented so far


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> which is based on your incorrect assumption that these reaction feats mean the electricity isn't proper electricity
> 
> what you should actually be assuming is that the showrunners don't know shit about the speed of lightning and thus moving on



I'm not saying it can't be real electricity. Just that its not moving as fast as a bolt of lightning would. Rather, it wouldn't make sense for it to be moving that fast considering the feats of those who react to it.



Banhammer said:


> ahem



What?



> You posted in response to me



Okay... and? I apologize for any misunderstandings I created, but no. I wasn't referring to you.



> So you are slapping two difrent arguments together  and then trying to come off with the conclusion that ATLA characters are not.



Two related arguments. And then using their pre-existing feats to question the logic behind assumptions being made.



> You slap two difrent arguments to assume victory says I.
> Jee, it wasn't that hard



No.



> ?_?



I'll concede on it being my fault that the misunderstandings occurred. But I wasn't referring to and for future reference, had I been referring to you (the person I was responding to) I'd have made it clear through the use of a pronoun.



> Jeez, if you really don't know this, why are you arguing against it?
> It chores your opposition into either having to give cumbersome lectures or to "concede"
> It's not kosher



I'm sorry, but it wouldn't be right for me/whoever to concede every time someone brings up something I don't completely understand.



> You have a minimum in Iroh and the storm. Azula's, Ozai's and the Industry have more.
> Extrapolate from that



How was it determined that they have more... amperage (not sure what you're referring to, sorry)? And how does that correlate to speed? A lecture shouldn't be necessary, a simple explanation of the subject and your line of reasoning might work.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i'm wonder why you keep bringing him up like he's relevant
> 
> his presence has nothing to do with your ability to cease quibbling about how avatar lightning isn't real lightning when it has a nominally accurate way of being generated and industrial applications



Accurate? Separating positive and negative energy, letting them crash together, and then spewing that out? Industrial applications are nice but I'm still confused as to how that indicates that their bender electricity travels at massively hypersonic speeds.



Banhammer said:


> No, it wouldn't
> But not for any reasons that I have presented so far



Yeah, they react to it to consistently for it to be an outlier. It'd just be a massive inconsistency.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Accurate? Separating positive and negative energy, letting them crash together, and then spewing that out? Industrial applications are nice but I'm still confused as to how that indicates that their bender electricity travels at massively hypersonic speeds.
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah, they react to it to consistently for it to be an outlier. It'd just be a massive inconsistency.



i said nominally accurate

you can tell as well as i can that this is pretty accurate for a universe which was stuck in the 1700s as far as tech goes, and had no actual theories of electricity

and well done

it's a massive inconsistency

close the book and go home


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i said nominally accurate
> 
> you can tell as well as i can that this is pretty accurate for a universe which was stuck in the 1700s as far as tech goes, and had no actual theories of electricity
> 
> ...



As I said earlier, what if its not just their way of explaining it? What if what he said is LITERALLY what he meant?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

and what do you mean by that


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> and what do you mean by that



I'll explain when I get back. Sorry.

Okay: 

Their world (the avatarverse) is one that has spirits, energy bending, chakras, reg. bending, yin and yang energy, etc. Why is it so far-fetched to believe that when he says separate the positive and negative energy, he's speaking literally? What if they do create electricity via the method he said?

I agree that it could just be a metaphorical way of explaining things. But it could also be the truth.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I'll explain when I get back. Sorry.
> 
> Okay:
> 
> ...


every other element is not magically created and behaves the same way they do in real life. fire acts like fire. water acts like water. earth and rocks and metal behave normally. air behaves normally.

occam's razor


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## HiroshiSenju (Jun 1, 2013)

Can someone please explain to me how the fuck this thread reached 13 pages?


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> every other element is not magically created and behaves the same way they do in real life. fire acts like fire. water acts like water. earth and rocks and metal behave normally. air behaves normally.
> 
> occam's razor



They don't actually all act as they do in real life. Fire somehow propels them through the air yet leave the ground relatively unscathed. Water heals. And earth shifts and bends in ways it would not do IRL. They can also somehow make crystals grow rapidly.

And why would occam's razor support what you're arguing? You're seemingly claiming that Iroh's lecture was a metaphorical way of explaining. I'm just assuming he means what he says. You're assuming it has the properties that non-fictional lightning has (speed, for example), but ignoring the fact that it has shown to lack certain others.

I'm just saying we should take it as it is. Yet another strange facet of bending, and accept that it (like the other 'elements') has some strange properties. Such as being slower, yet more destructive.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

HiroshiSenju said:


> Can someone please explain to me how the fuck this thread reached 13 pages?



A whole lot of headbutting over something that is now being called largely irrelevant.


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jun 1, 2013)

Amae said:


> More than likely the latter, Sukima.



I thought so.

Scenario 1: Boiling eyeballs
Scenario 2: Human lightning rod

Simple enough.


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

i dunno, sukima

roy can raise an earth wall to take the damage or put a conductor, like an actual lightning rod, in the way of lightning strikes

he's not helpless, and if he can react to bullets, based off every calc ever done for avatar, he can react to ozai's attacks


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Chi heals, not water (the more chi a given sample of water has, the more healing power it holds).

And the growing crystals were actually a frequent phenomenon in geology.
Crystals from. Earthbenders manipulate geology
Speed isn't an issue, as they don't become any less dense

The one with the flying fire is just stupid. Next I'll argue Roy can't really separate gases because he never dies of hydrogen poisoning or goes blind from staring at all those explosions and fireballs.

this is just canon, and the arguing of distortion of facts, or of storm-troping is usually of a debate a little beneath me


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## Eldritch Sukima (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> i dunno, sukima
> 
> roy can raise an earth wall to take the damage or put a conductor, like an actual lightning rod, in the way of lightning strikes
> 
> he's not helpless, and if he can react to bullets, based off every calc ever done for avatar, he can react to ozai's attacks



_Can_ he react to bullets?

The only person in FMA who consistently and casually bullet times is Bradley, and he's likely too fast for Roy to react to when fighting seriously.


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

unless you mean the genemite crystals, which are a made-up mineral that grows rapidly by itself.
As in, it's the mineral's natural property that causes it, and earthbending has no influence on it whatsoever


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

Eldritch Sukima said:


> _Can_ he react to bullets?
> 
> The only person in FMA who consistently and casually bullet times is Bradley, and he's likely too fast for Roy to react to when fighting seriously.



a lot of people in FMA bullet-time. bradley's the only casual one, though, yes

ed and al have both reacted to bullets on a fair few occasions

they've fought with people who have done the same, like scar

the homunculi in general have been very, very fast, and often outspeeded ed and al and sometimes scar

mustang has fought with most of these people at one point or another

i think it's pretty fair to assume he has reactions on their level


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> Chi heals, not water (the more chi a given sample of water has, the more healing power it holds).



So water has chi?



> And the growing crystals were actually a frequent phenomenon in geology.
> Crystals from. Earthbenders manipulate geology
> Speed isn't an issue, as they don't become any less dense



So, IRL there exists crystals that can grow to encompass a human body in minutes/seconds? And what of them creating armor out of crystals?



> The one with the flying fire is just stupid. Next I'll argue Roy can't really separate gases because he never dies of hydrogen poisoning or goes blind from staring at all those explosions and fireballs. this is just canon, and the arguing of distortion of facts, or of storm-troping is usually of a debate a little beneath me



Why? If you want to argue that it's just a trope the same applies to 'lightning' attacks that aren't as fast as lightning (this can mean slower or faster). That shit and numerous other lightning related tropes are seen all the time. Its the whole reason people are asked to prove lightning attacks are actually lightning speed.


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## Bioness (Jun 1, 2013)

HiroshiSenju said:


> Can someone please explain to me how the fuck this thread reached 13 pages?



Because you never changed your shitty post per page preference to the much better 40, I only see 7 pages.



Though seriously this thread needs to stop. When people (or in this case 4 people) are repeating the same points over again and never bothering to fix the flaws in their arguments, then you are getting no where and neither sides is moving or learning.


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## Fujita (Jun 1, 2013)

Lucaniel said:


> shade, saitomaru, jeong jeong, why don't you guys just accept that people with subsonic reactions can react to ozai's lightning and run with that, instead of trying to argue that the lightning is intrinsically slower
> 
> what you've got there is an inconsistency, but you get those in fiction written by people who apparently don't even know that lightning is fast





> jeong jeong


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## Mambo (Jun 1, 2013)

I will play devil advocate here 

You know, despite 1 high-tier character blatantly using "voice" and "sound" as his main weapon, Toriko verse accepted to be MHS.

So for avatar verse, who know their arrows move at MHS speed that even lightning timers have difficulty evading it


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

mambo said:


> I will play devil advocate here
> 
> You know, despite 1 high-tier character blatantly using "voice" and "sound" as his main weapon, Toriko verse accepted to be MHS.
> 
> So for avatar verse, who know their arrows move at MHS speed that even lightning timers have difficulty evading it



What?


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## Samavarti (Jun 1, 2013)

He is saying arrows, in Avatar are MHS.


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## Saitomaru (Jun 1, 2013)

Samavarti said:


> He is saying arrows, in Avatar are MHS.



How is that playing devil's advocate?


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## Lucaniel (Jun 1, 2013)

it's an attempt at satire

a lousy one


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## Mambo (Jun 1, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> How is that playing devil's advocate?



MHS ozai means mustang get stomped, the opposite of the consensus of this thread that mustang win easily 

Oman will be proud


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

> So water has chi?


People have chi. Waterbenders can conduct it through water when they want to heal.
But the properties of water aren't changed
It's connected to the spiritual world, not the Earth around then of which benders are the avatars.



> So, IRL there exists crystals that can grow to encompass a human body in minutes/seconds? And what of them creating armor out of crystals?


No, there isn't IRL. But then neither are flying monkeys or hawkturtles or the other type of hybrids
But there is in the Avatar universe.
It's called Gemenite.


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## Banhammer (Jun 1, 2013)

Now, to play the "waiting for me to go on in an elaborate three hour lecture in the differences between tai chi and feng shue and role of it in nature, spirit, and the obd thread of Mustang Vs Ozai" game


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## Saitomaru (Jun 2, 2013)

Banhammer said:


> People have chi. Waterbenders can conduct it through water when they want to heal.
> But the properties of water aren't changed
> It's connected to the spiritual world, not the Earth around then of which benders are the avatars.
> 
> ...



Actually, why is any of this relevant? You trying to prove that we shouldn't question bender lightning's properties because water is still wet in the avatar verse shouldn't actually mean anything.

I'm not even sure why I let you take me on this long time wasting ride. How does the bender electricity having high voltage equate to it being comparable (in terms of speed) to RL lightning? This question wasn't answered before. You can go on and on about water still being wet and it being used in an industrial setting all you want. But if that doesn't actually prove it is X speed (which is what I'm concerned with right now) why are we supposed to assume it is X speed?

What you have proven that wasn't really disputed to begin with:

-It has some of the properties of real electricity.
-Other bender 'elements' follow the behavior of their RL counterparts barring tropes and other dismiss-able things.
-They (firebenders) are able to handle (bend/redirect) real lightning.

What you haven't proven (or in some cases, even addressed):

-Its speed being MHS.
-Its method of creation being something other than exactly what Iroh described.

Now, forgive me if I'm wrong but IIRC it has never been the practice of OBD to assume that lightning-like attacks are lightning unless they are shown traveling (cloud to ground). Lightning that is generated by characters/character weapons is met with skepticism. Why shouldn't the same apply to the Avatarverse? Especially given the feats of the characters.

And before you say it, no. Assuming it is as fast as normal just because their water is wet should not be considered a reasonable assumption. If you feel that I'm being unreasonable we can ask others for their stance on this matter. If I am declared wrong I will concede the point. And I mean more than just two or three random thread lurkers. Maybe some OBD regulars (since apparently I'm considered new)?

OR we could always just come to a conclusion on this match and let it die (since both of us have basically been spewing the same shit at each other for the last few pages).


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## midgetoverlord (Jun 2, 2013)

I haven't watched avatar, but I see several people mentioning how characters in-verse have to worry about arrows. If this is consistent and includes those that have dodged lightning, doesn't that invalidate that avatar lightning if MHS? Someone also said that avatar lightning doesn't create sonic booms, when something else in-verse did, meaning that the lightning was not past subsonic. I don't know enough to make a judgment, but if true, those seemed like fair points to restate in the lightning debate. Also from the early pages, it appears that it actually takes a large motion to create lightning versus a snap from Roy. If Roy can get the spark off faster, doesn't that make the lightning argument moot? Just my two cents.


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## Chad (Jun 4, 2013)

So, who won this?


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## Expelsword (Jun 5, 2013)

narutoforumssuck said:


> So, who won this?


Itachi.


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## midgetoverlord (Jun 5, 2013)

Love the new sig^


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