# Pain vs Itachi



## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain and Itachi fight to decide which one is the strongest.

Location: Konoha ruins
State of Mind: IC
Knwoledge: Itachi knows Pain has Rinnegan,and Pain knows Itachi has MS.


Who would win(The characters are the same shown in the manga,so please no speculation about how good are healthy nagato or healthy itachi)?

Personally,i see Pain winning this w/o much difficulty.

And don't forget to vote.


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## Katana King (Dec 29, 2009)

Of course Pain wins this.

Itachi's sharingan is for 1 on 1. Pain has shared vision on all 6 bodies.

Pain would take him out in seconds while konan watches  

ZERO difficulty for Pain


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## SharinganSkill (Dec 29, 2009)

In my opinion Pein wins this, because he´s stronger, nothing to do with a matchup. But he would still have a hard time against Susano´o.


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## Shay (Dec 29, 2009)

Well, we know that Pain is susceptible to general Genjutsu as proven by the late and great J-man. That swings things hugely in favor of Itachi to begin with because I would dare say that Genjutsu is the six paths' main weakness. What good is it to see from all angles if all you see is a lie, and Itachi systematically dismantles the bodies? However, Tsukiyomi probably would fail catastrophically and I would imagine that Pain, with the Rinnegan, has a few tricks against Genjutsu (so many external chakra sources...) that would render this basic Itachi plan useless. It all falls apart from there.

I really don't know if Itachi would be able to sustain a prolonged fight against the Pains, without MS and multiple targets would shut Itachi down, especially aggravated if he doesnt know about the resurrection one, and without Susano I don't think Itachi would be able to do anything about the aoe gravity techs Deva uses let alone a basic six front assault. Also, Animal Realm would be very hard for Itachi to handle alone, because all those summons would be additional targets and take a lot of Amaterasu or a Susano to handle and Itachi would most likely end up killing himself due to stamina/chakra burnout. 

Poor Itachi can't take multiple targets very well.


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## Yang Wenli (Dec 29, 2009)

It's hard to say. We've actually never seen Itachi fight at full potential (as you know from the manga). The opposite is true for Nagato, we've seen all of his tricks and know what he's capable of. Itachi uses clones like Naruto, which proved quite effective for combating all of Pain's bodies. Pain isn't immune to genjutsu either, which happens to be Itachi's forte. Add MS to that, and I think we have a pretty even fight.


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

^^Itachi's shown all his tricks too.
And no,Nagato is immune to genjutsu(he has the superior doujutsu),plus how could he control the other corpses while the other were under the genjutsu???


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## Yang Wenli (Dec 29, 2009)

Where was it stated that Rinnegan granted full immunity to genjutsu?  Nagato is susceptible to genjutsu like anyone else, if all of the Pain bodies are put in genjutsu, he can't rely on the Pain bodies' linked sight anymore. Itachi can put all of the bodies in a genjutsu or systematically take down the Pain bodies one by one (we've seen they can't take too much damage, each of them have a niche and a weakness).


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## Senjuclan (Dec 29, 2009)

Pein rapes with extreme ease


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## Bloo (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain wins this easily. Itachi is the worst opponent primarily in 1 on 1 battles. Itachi might be able to take out a few bodies. But he would inevitably be overwhelmed. Itachi's only hope of winning is susanoo.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Dec 29, 2009)

Can you catch pain in sight based genjutsu? doesnt matter though cause pain is stronger.


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## Rampage (Dec 29, 2009)

Itachi makes an two exploding bushins. They could take two or three bodies. Deva pulls itachi in, Ameratsu ends Deva, Susano-o comes out and finishes the job :ho:ho


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## Luxiano (Dec 29, 2009)

Regulator said:


> It's hard to say. We've actually never seen Itachi fight at full potential (as you know from the manga).* The opposite is true for Nagato, we've seen all of his tricks and know what he's capable of.* Itachi uses clones like Naruto, which proved quite effective for combating all of Pain's bodies. Pain isn't immune to genjutsu either, which happens to be Itachi's forte. Add MS to that, and I think we have a pretty even fight.



 We have never seen the 6 paths working in tandem , Pain wasn't bloodlusted and we never saw the 6 elements mastery , as i've said many time Nagato's full potential > Itachi's one.

Pain is stronger than Itachi , there is just too much to keep track and stamina-wise he is a beast despite being hooked to Gedo Mazo while Itachi stamina isn't that great.

Without PiS Pain takes this with moderate/high difficulty though.


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## Bart (Dec 29, 2009)

Itachi wins.

Apart from Hungry Ghost, Nagato's other Realms have nothing in their arsenal which could handle them against a force such as Susano-o, in which case Itachi activates it instantaneous and unleashing it's two very powerful weapons in the realm of spirituality.

Itachi acting accordingly with Totsuka and being mindful of it's prefered quarters could end in one swipe reducing the Six Paths tremendously and I'm rather relucant in seeing the possibility of the Six Realms preventing Totsuka and Yata, which I believe Itachi will have to resort to.

The only thing that Nagato has on Itachi is Animal Realm's various summons, especially the monstrous force that is Cerberus. Susano-o, Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, if used wisely within this, would reduce the Realms, undoubtedy. Itachi's superior handseals and the predictive capibilities of the Sharingan increase his survivability.

This is a very interesting thread, Nagato, and that's certainly an encouraging thought.


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## CrazyMoronX (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm not so sure Genjutsu would work on Pain at all since they are remotely controlled and the chakra flow only goes one way.

Amaterasu would kill one of the bodies, sure, but Itachi would burn himself out trying to kill them all. Susano-o isn't going to do much since the bodies don't even have souls to seal up.

It'd be a long battle for Pain, assuming he doesn't just start out with a soul-swipe, but he'd take it eventually. Absorbing Pain could tank Amaterasu, Deva just nukes the battlefield forcing Itachi into Susano-o which would then just be a waiting game for Pain.


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## Prowler (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain wins the fight. But Itachi prime would be a pain in the ass.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

The only thing I question in this thread is...how in the blue hell can you consider Itachi winning? Moreover; why the hell to people think there is a huge difference between prime Itachi and Itachi other than no blood coughing and slightly faster movement?


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## Bart (Dec 29, 2009)

CrazyMoronX said:


> I'm not so sure Genjutsu would work on Pain at all since they are remotely controlled and the chakra flow only goes one way.



Hey Crazy 

Fukasaku and Shima caught Animal, Human and Hungry Ghost under Gamarinsho, so it is possible that Itachi could use Genjutsu, whether it be Sharingan based or not, upon the Six Realms.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

*Pein wins*

They each fought opponents who were designed to defeat them and bested them with their hands behind their backs. I will say that anyone who says this is an easy fight for either combatant is a complete retard who should be disregarded immediately. However, Negato was not dying like Itachi, he was just emaciated from constantly using chakra for his Six Paths jutsu, and it didn't effect him very much in comparison. Itachi, if using _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_ with lethal intentions, could chop down the realms quite well and there is reason to believe that the ultimate Genjutsu, _Tsukiyomi_, would be crushing for Negato. I will, however, ignore that possibility for now and say that Pein takes this with difficulty.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

How do people think Itachi can provide a challenge when Pain is one of his absolute worst match ups? Jesus this Itachi bandwagon crap.

Honestly, this is silly; Jiraiya, though, not as powerful as Itachi _had better tools to take on Pain_ -- Itachi does not.

I can assure you that anyone saying Itachi will give Pain a hard time will either a] forget everything Pain can do, b] overestimate Itachi or c] overestimate Itachi's good points and Pain's bad points and disregard Pain's counters for Itachi's good points.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Hey Crazy
> 
> Fukasaku and Shima caught Animal, Human and Hungry Ghost under Gamarinsho, so it is possible that Itachi could use Genjutsu, whether it be Sharingan based or not, upon the Six Realms.



Itachi's Genjutsu will only affect the target Pain.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How do people think Itachi can provide a challenge when Pain is one of his absolute worst match ups? Jesus this Itachi bandwagon crap.



Munboy, should _you_ really be yelling obscenities about fanboyism? I have seen one post purporting Itachi to be the victor and it was reasonable and well thought out. As pointed out, Genjutsu is a factor, and Itachi is cunning enough and has the finishing moves needed to make this a good fight. Depending on which realms he eliminates first is where the match is decided. Furthermore, there is no strong evidence suggesting that the extremely potent _Tsukiyomi_ would not effect Negato himself and thus end the match. There are twelve eyes on the field with one mind. Twelve entrances, one base. I can see that as another reason why people believe Itachi may take this.


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## Bart (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu will only affect the target Pain.



Not if Itachi uses Utakata, Munboy.


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## Agony (Dec 29, 2009)

With knowledge,Itachi will win but without knowledge itachi loses.holy crap.i cant believe i'm saying this.


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## felixng2008 (Dec 29, 2009)

Itachi doesn't have the stamina to pull this off. He is also pretty much blind, Pein takes it with slight-mod difficulty. Itachi will be able to take out a few bodies but he is definitely not going to be able to finish the job, his specialty is 1v1 not 6v1.
If Itachi just goes for Nagato though he will be able to win.


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## Bloo (Dec 29, 2009)

This battle is pretty much up in the air. All though it is leaning towards nagato due to numbers. We don't know too much on nagato and pain, would a genjutsu as strong as tsukuyomi have an effect on nagatos mind where he collapses? We don't know, so it's sort of hard to say. But from what we do know, itachis main weapon in this fight would have to be amaterasu and susanoo.


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## Bart (Dec 29, 2009)

Agony said:


> With knowledge,Itachi will win but without knowledge itachi loses.holy crap.i cant believe i'm saying this.



Totsuka and Yata make all the difference, not to mention that Itachi's Taijutsu is arguably some of the greatest seen within Part II.


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## Katana King (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Munboy, should _you_ really be yelling obscenities about fanboyism? I have seen one post purporting Itachi to be the victor and it was reasonable and well thought out. As pointed out, Genjutsu is a factor, and Itachi is cunning enough and has the finishing moves needed to make this a good fight. Depending on which realms he eliminates first is where the match is decided. Furthermore, there is no strong evidence suggesting that the extremely potent _Tsukiyomi_ would not effect Negato himself and thus end the match. There are twelve eyes on the field with one mind. Twelve entrances, one base. I can see that as another reason why people believe Itachi may take this.



Itachis genjutsu is for a 1 on 1 fight and onces he uses genjutsu on 1 body the other 5 can easily take him out.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

As stated before, _Utakata_ and possibly _Tsukiyomi_ will be more troublesome than you would like to believe. Negato has one conscience and many portals open for Itachi to strike from. Auditory Genjutsu would possibly be less effective due to Pein not sharing the sense of hearing between all bodies. Hence why when only three bodies were present, only three suffered from the _Frog Song_. It's possible that visual Genjutsu, in the hands of a master, would strike home with the source, Negato. I ignore this theory as it makes it unfair, personally.


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## Creator (Dec 29, 2009)

Pein rapes i so many ways.

Itachi is decent in One on One. When Pein is involved its 6 VS 1. 

Their teamwork, isnt even teamwork. They work as one person. Each have their super unique power. 

Together they are so strong in fact that Itachi's speed wont really help since 6 different views means those hits can be stopped. 

Hell realm is alway there to revive, and Susano'o is pure Chakra. 

This is completely excluding God Realm. 

If need be God realm will unleash his strongest techs. Not even Itachi can avoid those. 

Plus, Pein has ALOT more chakra then Itachi. Pein can kill Itachi, bring him back, kill him, bring him back, kill him, bring him back several times just for fun, while laughing at the Uchiha fail. 

Dont get me wrong, i dislike Pein. He killed Jiraiya and then trolled Tsunade. But in this match, its crystal clear. Pein rapes faster then you can finish reading this sentence. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How do people think Itachi can provide a challenge when Pain is one of his absolute worst match ups? Jesus this Itachi bandwagon crap.



Arent you one of them?


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## Agony (Dec 29, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Totsuka and Yata make all the difference, not to mention that Itachi's Taijutsu is arguably some of the greatest seen within Part II.



i agree tat totsuka and yata will make alot of difference but in IC itachi will not use susanoo at the very beginning and will get ST or bansou tenin by deva realm.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Munboy, should _you_ really be yelling obscenities about fanboyism?




Says the one who believes Itachi's potential was more than just movement (despite it being in the page he provided).



> I have seen one post purporting Itachi to be the victor and it was reasonable and well thought out. As pointed out, Genjutsu is a factor, and Itachi is cunning enough and has the finishing moves needed to make this a good fight. Depending on which realms he eliminates first is where the match is decided. Furthermore, there is no strong evidence suggesting that the extremely potent _Tsukiyomi_ would not effect Negato himself and thus end the match. There are twelve eyes on the field with one mind. Twelve entrances, one base. I can see that as another reason why people believe Itachi may take this.



There is evidence; but history shows me that you'll disregard it.

Especially since there was one Genjutsu which only effected the targets; no one more.


But people want to fool themselves in believing Tsukuyomi will affect all Pain rather than the target Pain Realms for one reason.


People believe Itachi may take this has there appears to be an Itachi bandwagon at the moment; soon there'll be another one.



Bartallen2 said:


> Not if Itachi uses Utakata, Munboy.



Utakata is the same damn jutsu, visual Genjutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Creator said:


> Arent you one of them?



I think Itachi can give Pain a tough match? Have you _ever_ seen me debate with Nikushimi?


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## Eternal Pein (Dec 29, 2009)

As has been stated a million times Pain wins


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I will say that anyone who says this is an easy fight for either combatant is a complete retard who should be disregarded immediately.



And women wonder why there is a lack of respect on these forums


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

You all know Tsukuyomi and Utakata are visual Genjutsu; they can't affect other Pains nor can they affect Nagato if the chakra doesn't go to them; which can't be achieved if they don't look at the seal/eye.

But yet some believe one Pain looking will equate to all the rest plus Nagato falling for the Genjutsu -- despite the chakra not reaching them. My guess is this due to the fact that its obvious Itachi's other Ninjutsu/Taijutsu are useless.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> And women wonder why there is a lack of respect on these forums





> I will say that anyone who says this is an easy fight for either combatant is a complete retard who should be disregarded immediately.




Actually it is an easy fight for one side [Pain], the other [Itachi] have some how fooled themselves on believing Itachi's Genjutsu will have non-canon effects on Pain.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Says the one who believes Itachi's potential was more than just movement (despite it being in the page he provided).



He was blind and had a terminal illness. He was specifically aiming not to harm Sasuke and only destroy Orochimaru when he emerged. Yes, I believe there was more potential than just being _slightly faster_. Madara and Zetsu back this up.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> There is evidence; but history shows me that you'll disregard it. Especially since there was one Genjutsu which only effected the targets; no one more. But people want to fool themselves in believing Tsukuyomi will affect all Pain rather than the target Pain Realms for one reason.



If you tried reading. If you just _tried_ you would see that I disregarded the entire theory because of its delicate nature and am merely telling you to shut your fanboy mouth when you decide to complain about other fans.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> He has shown six jutsu and he possesses the Sharingan. He was blind and had a terminal illness. He was specifically aiming not to harm Sasuke and only destroy Orochimaru when he emerged. Yes, I believe there was more than potential than just being _slightly faster_.



Allow me to add you're also taking evidence way out of context; just like the last time.

There is no unknown potential; just slightly faster movement and no blood coughing.

That's it. Anything else is pure speculation; much like what you're doing with by making it seem that his showings weren't his full potential.



> If you tried reading. If you just _tried_ you would see that I disregarded the entire theory because of its delicate nature and am merely telling you to shut your fanboy mouth when you decide to complain about other fans.



Well I can back up what I say. You on the other hand cannot without taking evidence out of context.

Moreover you've yet to provide evidence _any_ of the Genjutsu you have specified would have the effect you claim.

Therefore I shall ask you to as you put it _"shut your fanboy mouth"_ and provide some evidence instead of giving me bullshit.


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain absolutly rapes, he could take this with animal and deva realm with moderate difficulty.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

I dare anyone to provide me evidence that say that Genjutsu will affect all the Pain Realms aside the target ones.

Seeing as that is the _only_ argument those arguing for Itachi have.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Allow me to add you're also taking evidence way out of context; just like the last time. There is no unknown potential; just slightly faster movement and no blood coughing. That's it. Anything else is pure speculation; much like what you're doing with by making it seem that his showings weren't his full potential.



All Battledome topics are speculation. This isn't on topic though.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Well I can back up what I say. You on the other hand cannot without taking evidence out of context. Moreover you've yet to provide evidence _any_ of the Genjutsu you have specified would have the effect you claim.



As I have said, _Tsukiyomi_ *may* be incredibly effective, but I ignore it. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Therefore I shall ask you to as you put it _"shut your fanboy mouth"_ and provide some evidence instead of giving me bullshit.



Since you are incompetent, this was my say in the thread:



Illusory said:


> *Pein wins*
> 
> They each fought opponents who were designed to defeat them and bested them with their hands behind their backs. I will say that anyone who says this is an easy fight for either combatant is a complete retard who should be disregarded immediately. However, Negato was not dying like Itachi, he was just emaciated from constantly using chakra for his Six Paths jutsu, and it didn't effect him very much in comparison. Itachi, if using _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_ with lethal intentions, could chop down the realms quite well and there is reason to believe that the ultimate Genjutsu, _Tsukiyomi_, would be crushing for Negato. I will, however, ignore that possibility for now and say that Pein takes this with difficulty.


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

I see that a lot of people here think Pain wins this,while the polls suggest they are close.What's going on???


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Most people would rather not argue with Pein fans.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> All Battledome topics are speculation. This isn't on topic though.



I mean you are speculating effects; you're not proving evidence.



> The Mangyekou Genjutsu causes spiritual and mental damage. There is only one spirit and mind present in each body. That would be Negato. As I have said, _Tsukiyomi_ *may* be incredibly effective, but I ignore it. _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_ alone make this challenging for Pein as well as other Genjutsu.





The Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu, Tsukuyomi only causes mental damage. The manga showed us that; you pulled the spiritual part out of your ass.

Now Nagato's jutsu, Pain was hit by Genjutsu --- only the Pain Realms hit by the Genjutsu were affected, not the other Pain Realms, not Nagato; you pulled Nagato and other Pain Realms other than the target Pains being affected out of your ass as well.

As you said Tsukuyomi could be effective; but you rely on too much conjectures. Also we're told that Genjutsu controls chakra flow to the brain meaning only the target Pain would be affected, no one else like you suggest.
Though, you ignore it --- there is no debate, Genjutsu only affects the target Pain; we _saw_ Genjutsu against Pain in the manga FFS. 

Meaning Tsukuyomi isn't as effective as you imply seeing as you rely on conjectures to support yourself.

Other Genjutsu; well if Pain had skills like pre Fuuton Naruto then you'd be right.

Susano'o and Amaterasu...you assume _Ninjutsu_ will be useful against Pain Rikudou... Do you remember what Jiraiya said about Ninjutsu with the Preta Realm there? 



> Since you are incompetent, this was my say in the thread:



I've seen the post. But you have no evidence at all to support yourself; hence it looks wrong that _you_ call anyone incompetent. 



Sorry, but looking at Itachi's feats and Pain's....Pain takes this comfortably.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> I see that a lot of people here think Pain wins this,while the polls suggest they are close.What's going on???



There's a bandwagon for Itachi at the moment. 

Though, I wouldn't trust the poll given some of the reasons arguing for Itachi seem to go against what the manga have shown us (feats and Genjutsu effect) and haven't shown evidence to support their point.



Illusory said:


> Most people would rather not argue with Pein fans.



Which is why you're in this thread. 

Illusory if you cannot prove me wrong with evidence then you shouldn't resort to trolling.

You trolling rather than proving me wrong with evidence suggests to me that your post relies heavily on well...conjectures.


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I dare anyone to provide me evidence that say that Genjutsu will affect all the Pain Realms aside the target ones.
> 
> Seeing as that is the _only_ argument those arguing for Itachi have.



This.
Tsukyomi is useless against dead bodies,and normal genjutsu would be easily broken by Nagato(remember how he controlled the other bodies against Jiraiya+he has Rinnegan).
Amaterasu: easily absorbed.
Susanoo:Absorbed(the sword) or destroyed(Lazer beams and summon spam from all sides).


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I mean you are speculating effects; you're not proving evidence.



You are speculating he is immune to Genjutsu, I speculate otherwise. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu, Tsukuyomi only causes mental damage. The manga showed us that; you pulled the spiritual part out of your ass.



Or you could go back and read when it was first shown.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Now Nagato's jutsu, Pain was hit by Genjutsu --- only the Pain Realms hit by the Genjutsu were affected, not the other Pain Realms, not Nagato; you pulled Nagato and other Pain Realms other than the target Pains being affected out of your ass as well.



Pein doesn't share his sense of hearing. _Tsukiyomi_ is the highest level.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As you said Tsukuyomi could be effective; but you rely on too much conjectures. Also we're told that Genjutsu controls chakra flow to the brain meaning only the target Pain would be affected, no one else like you suggest.



If a trail leads in one direction, it can be followed in the opposite direction.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Other Genjutsu; well if Pain had skills like pre Fuuton Naruto then you'd be right.



FRS Naruto was caught as well and his control is superior to Negato's.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Susano'o and Amaterasu...you assume _Ninjutsu_ will be useful against Pain Rikudou... Do you remember what Jiraiya said about Ninjutsu with the Preta Realm there?



You assume that Itachi would be forced to attack Preta Realm.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Illusory if you cannot prove me wrong with evidence



You can't prove anything either, Munboy. It's not difficult to understand.


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 29, 2009)

Peins with moderate/high difficulty

There is simply no need to explain since it's only gonna be the true itachi tards who will disagree and there is simply no point in arguing with a brick wall


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You are speculating he is immune to Genjutsu, I speculate otherwise.



Find me 'immune' in my posts. Go on.



> Or you could go back and read when it was first shown.



I don't only use one piece of evidence released years back. I also use newer evidence of said jutsu, sorry.



> Pein doesn't share his sense of hearing. _Tsukiyomi_ is the highest level.



Who cares. Genjutsu is all the same, just different ways on affecting the target. You are speculating that Tsukuyomi can affect all the Realms other than the one who looks into his eyes.

I've seen no evidence to support that notion.



> If a trail leads in one direction, it can be followed in the opposite direction.



Didn't work for the Genjutsu used against Pain the first time. That Genjutsu used stronger chakra than Itachi had.



> FRS Naruto was caught as well and his control is superior to Negato's.



Oh cool, surprise Genjutsu. Show me Naruto attempting to get out of the Genjutsu.

About his control being superior to Nagato's show me proof. Since as we know Nagato mastered all chakra types at the age of 10. As well as all the mainstream Ninjutsu, getting out of Genjutsu would be part of the main stream jutsu. 



> You assume that Itachi would be forced to attack Preta Realm.



You assume all the Pain Realms will be dancing in the battlefield like headless chickens, separated.

They'll stick together. Make use of their shared vision. A Pain suitable to tank Itachi's incoming attack will go in the front likes.
If he sends Ninjutsu the Preta Realm will go for that attack. Or maybe the God Realm might; likely the Preta granted the 5 second rule.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> This.
> Tsukyomi is useless against dead bodies,and normal genjutsu would be easily broken by Nagato(remember how he controlled the other bodies against Jiraiya+he has Rinnegan).
> Amaterasu: easily absorbed.
> Susanoo:Absorbed(the sword) or destroyed(Lazer beams and summon spam from all sides).



Just so my point is clear, this is why people dislike arguing with Pein fans.



Nagatosama said:


> This. Tsukyomi is useless against dead bodies



_"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_ 



Nagatosama said:


> and normal genjutsu would be easily broken by Nagato



_"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_ 



Nagatosama said:


> Amaterasu: easily absorbed.



_"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_ 



Nagatosama said:


> Susanoo:Absorbed(the sword) or destroyed(Lazer beams and summon spam from all sides).



_"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_ 



Complete_Ownage said:


> Peins with moderate/high difficulty



I said the same thing. Be prepared to defend your position haha.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I don't only use one piece of evidence released years back. I also use newer evidence of said jutsu, sorry.



So you mean you ignore statements about the jutsu when showcased.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Who cares. Genjutsu is all the same, just different ways on affecting the target. You are speculating that Tsukuyomi can affect all the Realms other than the one who looks into his eyes. I've seen no evidence to support that notion.



I did not include that speculation in my decision. And there is evidence.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Didn't work for the Genjutsu used against Pain the first time. That Genjutsu used stronger chakra than Itachi had.



Not according to Zetsu. As I have said, Pein does not share his sense of hearing.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Oh cool, surprise Genjutsu. Show me Naruto attempting to get out of the Genjutsu.



He just thought he'd stay in it against someone he thought wanted him dead.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> About his control being superior to Nagato's show me proof.



Well, in terms of evidence, Negato hasn't shown control needed for FRS. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You assume all the Pain Realms will be dancing in the battlefield like headless chickens, separated.



Find for me where I speculated that.


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Just so my point is clear, this is why people dislike arguing with Pein fans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We can use logic when we have no evidence,and it works very well too.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Just so my point is clear, this is why people dislike arguing with Pein fans.



May I point to you that this might be a reason why you may not be liked much; you're trolling.



> _"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_



Honoured you referenced me. But allow me to show you how its done.

Tsukuyomi isn't useless; Genjutsu works on Pain. Though, nothing in the manga suggests it affects more Pains than the target ones.



> _"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_



The seal Kai; its not Genjutsu, its real; its not Taijutsu, it uses chakra --- its Ninjutsu!

Nagato was said to have mastered the mainstream Ninjutsu; 'Kai' the jutsu to get one out of Genjutsu is one of them.

Not hard to work things out from there. Plus you can easily find that quote in the "Ni Dai Sennin" chapter -- the translation is off ["6 elements"], but the most recent translation by ShounenSuki confirms its the mainstream Ninjutsu.



> _"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_





Tell me you're joking, are you...you know Amaterasu is Ninjutsu right...yeaa; Zetsu says it in the chapter "Sasuke's strategy".




> _"Prove it with evidence, not conjecture." -Munboy_



Can't be destroyed. But it can be absorbed. Its Ninjutsu, as for the spiritual; Tayuya's jutsu was said to be spiritual -- it was said to just be chakra later (refer to Shikamaru v Tayuya).


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> We can use logic when we have no evidence,and it works very well too.



Precisely! Very little can be _proved_ in the Battledome. Only _theorized_ and it becomes very tedious dealing with Munboy who demands proof and then goes off and speculates. I do agree with some of what you said, Negatosama, although I don't feel it would be anywhere near that easy for Pein.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> So you mean you ignore statements about the jutsu when showcased.



Of course not. I just don't use one piece of evidence; you likely just use evidence which showcase the jutsu's positive aspects while I'd do the same only look at the negative aspects too.

For instance I'm certain you'll deny Sasuke's Genjutsu from the Mangekyou being Tsukuyomi as it showcases a negative aspect of Tsukuyomi.



> I did not include that speculation in my decision. And there is evidence.



Then reference your evidence or link them. Please, assuming it exists.



> Not according to Zetsu. As I have said, Pein does not share his sense of hearing.



I said it used stronger chakra. Not jutsu.
As you say, Pain doesn't share his sense of hearing; but you fail to explain why anyone but the targets will be affected. Especially when what you say goes against the explanation of the working of Genjutsu we got from Shikamaru v Tayuya and Naruto+Kakashi v Shouten Itachi.



> He just thought he'd stay in it against someone he thought wanted him dead.



Point is he didn't try.



> Well, in terms of evidence, Negato hasn't shown control needed for FRS.



When. The. Hell. Did. FRS. Come. Into. This?

We're talking about the release seal.




> Find for me where I speculated that.




"You assume that Itachi would be forced to attack Preta Realm. "

Why would I assume that unless you believed they'll just be separated waiting to be hit?

You do remember that Pain Rikudou try to stick together, right?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Precisely! Very little can be _proved_ in the Battledome.



A lot can be proved if you _use the right evidence_ with _the right context._


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Peins with moderate/high difficulty
> 
> There is simply no need to explain since it's only gonna be the true itachi tards who will disagree and there is simply no point in arguing with a brick wall



Yeah,in b4 Godtachi


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## Goobtachi (Dec 29, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Peins with moderate/high difficulty
> 
> There is simply no need to explain since it's only gonna be the true itachi tards who will disagree and there is simply no point in arguing with a brick wall



I just can't understand how guys say pain wins with high difficulty and can't accept the possibility that itachi wins the fight.This is rather contradictory.

When you say that someone wins a fight with high difficulty,that means in your opinion,there are possibilities that itaci wins the fight if circumstances are good for him;I believe that itachi wins this with high difficulty 8/10


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

godtachi said:


> I just can't understand how guys say pain wins with high difficulty and can't accept the possibility that itachi wins the fight.This is rather contradictory.
> 
> When you say that someone wins a fight with high difficulty,that means in your opinion,there are possibilities that itaci wins the fight if circumstances are good for him;I believe that itachi wins this with high difficulty 8/10




So,u finally showed up:ho
No,Pain is too much for Itachi,if he had decent chakra,i would consider this situation,but his poor stamina definitely seals the result in Pain's favor.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

I agree with Negato. If Itachi had more stamina, he would have a better chance.

The OP stipulates that he has the same health as he did against Sasuke.


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## Rampage (Dec 29, 2009)

Look at his fight against Sasuke, look how many jutsu's he spammed even when he was dying


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## Goobtachi (Dec 29, 2009)

Anyway,here is what i think of the fight:

Kakashi showed that he could cast genjutsu on multiple enemies.That is really good for Itachi's defense+Knowledge on Rinnegan helps itachi.

What can Itachi do against pain's attacks:
1.If it goes like against naruto,HGR attacking alone like a dumb:hr gets immediately destroyed by Itachi:a paralysing genjutsu+Kunai in the throat and he's over.
2.If he uses the bansho-tennin+anything combo :he gets an exploding bunshin or a karasu bunshin and loses either one body or gets messed up by the crows.Itachi can then aims amaterasu on the opponents.
3.Pain tries summons evades them with ease,or uses Partial susano'o to aim for the caster(animal realm)....
I'm really looking forward to see what pain fans believe itachi would lose to

Again this stamina bullshit,Itachi outlasted sasuke after giving some of his pwoer to naruto.And we saw how sasuke fared against the kages.


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## Monzaemon (Dec 29, 2009)

uzumaki lee said:


> Your logic fails



Let's hear your reasoning. How does citing the guy who created the series to help us find the truth on the matter "fail"?

I don't like Pain at all, but have to give the character some credit. If Kishimoto says he's stronger than Itachi, so be it.


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## Angoobo (Dec 29, 2009)

@Godtachi:As i stated Itachi only knows he has rinnegan,nothing about its abilities.
Lol at your scenatio:
1.Yeah,the others would watch him do everything he wants.
2.Karasu bunshin harming someone Kakashi disagrees.
3.Do u believe The other bodies are staying still??

See,every scenario fails before the 6 bodies+Itachi's mediocre stamina.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 29, 2009)

^^he did that with naruto,he sent HGR attacking itachi with the other bodies standing still.

Karasu bunshin doesn't harm anyone,i think you meant bunshin daibakuha,which kakashi evaded with his sharingan prediction and insight.if a pain body takes it,he'll be badly hurt

Yeah,since it's what they did.


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## David (Dec 29, 2009)

Creator said:


> Pein can kill Itachi, bring him back, kill him, bring him back, kill him, bring him back several times just for fun, while laughing at the Uchiha fail.



 I think I'm gonna sig this for truth, if you don't mind.


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## Shiorin (Dec 29, 2009)

Illusory said:


> *Pein wins*
> 
> They each fought opponents who were designed to defeat them and bested them with their hands behind their backs. I will say that anyone who says this is an easy fight for either combatant is a complete retard who should be disregarded immediately. However, Negato was not dying like Itachi, he was just emaciated from constantly using chakra for his Six Paths jutsu, and it didn't effect him very much in comparison. Itachi, if using _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_ with lethal intentions, could chop down the realms quite well and there is reason to believe that the ultimate Genjutsu, _Tsukiyomi_, would be crushing for Negato. I will, however, ignore that possibility for now and say that Pein takes this with difficulty.



^ This, mostly.

Nagato is very inconsistent. Although Pain has some impressive  and  feats himself, he doesn't often use handseals and seems to favor HGR/ST over dodging. Even if he's clearly a very intelligent mind to simultaneously control 6 bodies, he likes to just overwhelm his opponents, which is the worst kind of strategy against Itachi. Nagato is supposed to have 6 elements and all the ninjutsu Jiraiya taught him, but only really spams Path abilities in battle. He puts  on his lowly henchmen, but has a terrible track record with genjutsu himself. And it wasn't until his final and desperate moments against Naruto that Nagato actually began fighting "Itachi-style" - with foresight and trappings of analytical strategy.

On the other hand, Itachi has an answer to all of Nagato's techniques, and strong genjutsu is shown to at least affect individual target bodies. If Pain fights as he did against Jiraiya or at first against Naruto, Itachi could make this very hard for him.


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## ZE (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain always starts his fights by spamming summons (see Pain vs Jiraiya, and Pain vs Naruto). Itachi?s non MS arsenal won?t allow him to kill all of the summons, and one of those is immortal and can multiply himself. With Susanoo and Amateratsu he would probably beat them, but afterwards he would?ve to fight the six Pains with half or even less of his chakra.


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## yaro39 (Dec 29, 2009)

Think about it, even if 6 on one is bad for the Sharingan, the ALL SHARE the same vision, therefore all the bodies would be caught in tsukuyomi, easy win for Itachi


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## Eternal Pein (Dec 29, 2009)

You think Itachi can outlast a man who is providing chakra to six dead bodies, summoning massive creatures, blew a village to hell, and used Chibaku Tensei all in one fight


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 29, 2009)

itachi wins with mild difficulty

Pain can't stop god of moon and god of sun eradicates all his bodies and susano finishes off god realm or itachi's speed


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## Eternal Pein (Dec 29, 2009)

^ thats the best logic ive seen ever on regards to this battle


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## Sadgoob (Dec 29, 2009)

Hollowed Shinigami said:


> You think Itachi can outlast a man who is providing chakra to six dead bodies, summoning massive creatures, blew a village to hell, and used Chibaku Tensei all in one fight



I don't think anyone argued that Itachi would _outlast_ Pein.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain's too much for Itachi, really. Even Uchiha Itachi isn't past losing to a Banshou Ten'in combo.



jplaya2023 said:


> itachi wins with mild difficulty
> 
> Pain can't stop god of moon and god of sun eradicates all his bodies and susano finishes off god realm or itachi's speed



As Itachi takes out Galatics right.


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## Black Sabbath II (Dec 29, 2009)

... Tards. This is why Itachi threads and Pain threads get so much damned hate.

Anyway, you're ALL wrong. Either man can win this fiht. 50//50 so quit your dang yapping.

Itachi.

When it comes to speed and overall intelligence, he takes it. We've seen how not only his hand speed, but reaction and overall speed are just incredible. He pretty much took Sasuke to the limit without even really trying to kill him. Not to mention he was blind and dying. Put a healthy Itachi that wants to kill someone on a battlefield and you have an entire village goin down. Hey, he can do it. Uchiha massacre anyone?

Anyway, most of Pain's bodies won't even phase the guy. Human realm and Hell realm are pretty much fodder and Itachi's shown he can genjutsu people pretty well. Animal, Asura and Deva will be the ones causing him the most trouble. I see him pretty much dodging bullets like J-man did in his final moments and offing Human realm  first. Eventually human realm will be back and he notices Enma. Taking out Hell realm with Amaterasu won't be too hard, which leaves pain at a disadvantage. Animal summons will be a pain to deal with, most notably chameleon and Cerberus. Chameleon could be seen due to sharingan being able to see chakra and cerberus might be done in by Amaterasu. If hitting him doesn't work, burn him. Animal realm goes down hard too since she's the weakest of the bodies, skill wise. Now shit gets tough and this is where there are two possibilites.

Itachi's win:

Itachi's going to have to be smart and KEEP MOVING. If he stands still for even a second Pain bansho tenin's him into next week. He could use Amaterasu on Deva, which will cause Hungry ghost to eat the fire once it ignites. That's when he notices he's been fooled by Itachi's famous super fast KB handseal. I see a Bunshin slicing Hungry ghosts' throat and ending him since it's obvious ninjutsu won't work on him. Taking on Asura and Deva at this point is just plain suicide, so Susano'o is the way to go. Nothing in their arsenal can get through with Yata on his side and all he has to do is cut them with the sword. Both pain's go down hard.

Pain's win:

Itachi's going to be moving allot, so he needs to keep him grounded. Hungry ghost realm should stick by Deva in case any attacks come his way and Asura should go into Asura mode. He spams missiles around him to try and ruin Itachi's running path. Itachi's going to have to take out Asura after this display of power and Asura just has to get him in a tie up like Itachi did with Sasuke. Itachi will most likely go for his bunshin trick, but as of now Asura is unimportant. Whatever happens Itachi is still now and a bansho tenin will suck him right into pain's hands, followed by a well placed chakra rod. Hungry ghost covers his eyes and drains all his chakra while Pain repeatedly stabs him in the chest wit the chakra rod then impales his throat and head. (Yeah I'm being graphic now ;D). Then for good measure Asura stomps on his skull.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 29, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> P-
> 
> 
> As Itachi takes out Galatics right.



absolutely but that's another thread


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## Bloo (Dec 29, 2009)

I'm just wondering, if one pain body were to make eye contact with itachi and he were to cast a sharingan genjutsu, wouldn't it effect all six of the bodies since they do have shared vision?


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 29, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> I'm just wondering, if one pain body were to make eye contact with itachi and he were to cast a sharingan genjutsu, wouldn't it effect all six of the bodies since they do have shared vision?



yes it would afect all 6 

shared vision = 6 simultaneous god of moons


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 29, 2009)

jplaya2023 said:


> yes it would afect all 6
> 
> shared vision = 6 simultaneous god of moons



No it wouldnt, otherwise nagato and the other pain bodies would have been affected by the frog song as they have shared hearing as well.


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## jplaya2023 (Dec 29, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> No it wouldnt, otherwise nagato and the other pain bodies would have been affected by the frog song as they have shared hearing as well.



correct me if i'm wrong but he didn't have all 6 bodies summoned and that was a hearing genjitsu not a visual one correct?


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## Eternal Pein (Dec 29, 2009)

I dont remember anything about Pain having shared hearing where the hell did you get that from


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## SSJ2 Gohan (Dec 29, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^This should calm down the tards



SOOOOooooo TRUE.....


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## Bloo (Dec 29, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> No it wouldnt, otherwise nagato and the other pain bodies would have been affected by the frog song as they have shared hearing as well.



Where did you get this, they have shared vision from the rinnegan primarily. They dont have the same ears.


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## sexy no jutsu (Dec 29, 2009)

Pain wins this with easy/moderate difficulty. 

Itachi would have a hard time dealing with the animal realm summons that Pain usually starts the fight with. Itachi will be forced to blow up a large amount of chakra just to get rid of the summons. And stamina isn't really the Uchiha's forte. Tsukuyomi or other genjutsu wont be of much help as the rest of the Pain bodies can either take out Itachi or release the Pain bodies trapped in genjutsu by forcing their chakra. Amaterasu will be absorbed by Pain. A combination of bansho tenin and asura realm should be enough to finish the match assuming that God realm doesn't end it with a chibaku tensei at the very beginning.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 29, 2009)

jplaya2023 said:


> absolutely but that's another thread



You should come back to the OBD. 



3spn4life said:


> Where did you get this, they have shared vision from the rinnegan primarily. They dont have the same ears.



Explain to me how Genjutsu works.
Explain to me how the jutsu Pain works.

Then tell me how it makes sense. I expect pages so I know what you're saying is in line with the manga --- as IIRC nothing supports this notion.


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## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Dec 29, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> Where did you get this, they have shared vision from the rinnegan primarily. They dont have the same ears.



Deva knew instantly when that other Pain got the info from Shizune.

Everything a realm does, sees or hears, Nagato will know instantly and thus the other realms too since their all controlled by Nagato. Cant get more obvious than that.


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## Eternal Pein (Dec 30, 2009)

That meens Nagato can hear through them all not Deva can hear what Animal is hearing so what you said makes no sense they dont have shared hearing


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## Katana King (Dec 30, 2009)

Hollowed Shinigami said:


> That meens Nagato can hear through them all not Deva can hear what Animal is hearing so what you said makes no sense they dont have shared hearing



He means whatever a realm hears Nagato hears so he can tell the other realms what he heard from that realm.


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## Tegami (Dec 30, 2009)

Definitely Pein(Pain)
I mean, if Itachi caught one pain in his genjutsu, then he'll be forced to deal with one. And if he uses his MS, he's all worn at and all.
But pain has constant substitutes that allows him to kill more than two people at a time. 

Reason says Pain.
Though, I like Itachi.


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## GKY (Dec 30, 2009)

As one of the biggest Itatchi fans on the forum, if you accept that the Itatchi that faught Sauske was trying and doesn't get stronger when he's healthy (which is completely untrue), than to believe that guy can beat Pein is retarded. If Pein has knowledge, he'll avoid genjutsu for the most part, and would probably lose some bodies against Susanno before Itatchi dies. 

Now with speculation of a healthy Itatchi that is trying, I still think he would lose because he is a 1 on 1 fighter and not a 6 on 1 fighter. However, the fight would be far closer then the brutal asskicking Pein would employ against the one I just mentioned.


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## Xion (Dec 30, 2009)

a.) He has not shown to be immune to genjutsu.

b.) He has not shown to have all bodies affected by one visual genjutsu and the sound genjutsu supports that it would not work.

c.) Pain always wins as Itachi is no match for him in this scenario.


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## Bloo (Dec 30, 2009)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> Deva knew instantly when that other Pain got the info from Shizune.
> 
> Everything a realm does, sees or hears, Nagato will know instantly and thus the other realms too since their all controlled by Nagato. Cant get more obvious than that.



They have a shared brain/knowledge because they are controlled by nagato, but the human realm didn't hear the information from shizune, it went directly to nagatos mind.


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## Vergil642 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I dare anyone to provide me evidence that say that Genjutsu will affect all the Pain Realms aside the target ones.
> 
> Seeing as that is the _only_ argument those arguing for Itachi have.



Bitch please, you should know I have many more arguments than just that.

Also, a quick preview of the below: Crow Genjutsu and five KBs=all six Pains either potentially or definitely paralysed and vulnerable to any further attack 

Epic post ahoy!

Ninjutsu: Obviously, Pain?s got this in the bag. Let?s look at each body individually. First, there?s Hell Realm, the least dangerous (in a direct way anyway) to Itachi. He can bring Pains back to life when they?re killed and drag your soul out if he gets you by the neck and you lie to him. First ability, very useful. Second, not so much; he isn?t getting his hands on Itachi. That?s addressed in Taijutsu and elsewhere in general though. Looking back at his rez jutsu, it?ll be very useful in the earlier stages of the match to bring back bodies Itachi might kill with simple wounds like throats being cut or whatever. However, when Amaterasu and Susanoo get used, there?s either going to be only ashes left to bring back (good luck there buddy) or nothing at all because the Sword of Totsuka probably just sucked it up. Overall, Hell Realm?s useful at the start, but becomes less so as the battle progresses.

Human Realm now, his only useful jutsu being soul rip. Again, good luck getting your hands on Itachi.

Hungry Ghost Realm. Fuujutsu Kyuuin is very useful here, able to absorb even Amaterasu if it?s on when Itachi looks at him. Having said that, Itachi?s going to very quickly figure this out (oh hey, that fat guy?s absorbing all my Ninjutsu!) and won?t use Amaterasu on him. His most dangerous aspect is being able to absorb Susanoo. Although the items it carries aren?t necessarily chakra, the rest of it certainly is. However, as we?ve seen from both Sasuke and Itachi, Susanoo regenerates. This means it?ll be weakened (constantly being sucked away but replenished at the same time) and will drain Itachi?s stamina crazy fast, which is something he can?t afford. However, Hungry Ghost?s ability is potentially as much a hindrance as a help. He always gets thrown in the way of any Ninjutsu, that?s all he ever does. Just using a Katon will be enough for Itachi to happily keep him in one place while he and/or a KB goes round the side to attack the other Pains now they haven?t got their big chakra shield ready. Oh, and he can drain Itachi?s chakra if he grabs him. Again, good luck.

OH, and what Jiraiya said about Ninjutsu being useless against Pain? Did nobody take note of the fact he proved himself wrong pages later by trapping Hungry Ghost with Dai Endan and then using Yomi Numa to trap Human/Animal (I forgot which)? Ninjutsu is still effective against Pain, regardless of what your favourite character might say. It?s just going to require a bit more thinking to be useful.

Animal Realm is where things get dicey. Dude?s big summons can be stalemated by Genjutsu and potentially turned against him, but otherwise they need things like Bunshin Bakuha (in the mouth preferably), Amaterasu and Susanoo to kill. However, if Itachi snipes Animal Realm the summons are no longer a problem. What?s more, even if he hides inside his Chameleon or flies away on his bird, Itachi can both see him (Sharingan gives colour to chakra) and snipe him (Amaterasu).

Asura Realm is the biggest threat short of Deva. He?s basically invincible to Itachi?s basic attacks, has hugely damaging attacks of his own and that laser is really hard to dodge. However, with an exploding tag and a kunai Itachi can potentially set off his rockets as/before he fires them. So he does in fact have a non MS counter to this.  Otherwise though, Amaterasu and Susanoo are a must to kill this bastard. Oh, and other than the laser (which could probably be Shunshin?d away from) the attacks are dodge able or able to be prematurely detonated by kunai and shuriken (and if you really must, exploding tags).

Deva?s the biggest threat overall, his jutsu are anyway, that much we can all agree. Shinra Tensei is unlikely to one shot Itachi though. Why you ask? Well, according to a little slug on Naruto?s shoulder it seems the larger and/or more powerful it is, the longer the cool down. This would explain neatly why Chou Shinra Tensei resulted in Deva losing his powers for ages and why he tends to not use boss summon wiping ones on smaller, faster and generally more dangerous foes (lookin? at you Kakashi). As such, it seems unlikely he?ll use that to one shot Itachi. Assuming he can of course, Itachi can still KB feint and have that take the blow for him and paralyse him immediately and so on, and tank weaker Shinra Tensei?s on his own. 

Bansho Tennin?s a problem of course, but if you?re a quick thinker like Kakashi you can actually do something while flying through the air. Throwing out a KB to inturrupt any plans Pain may have (ie attacking whatever Pain Itachi?s flying to), Genjutsuing said Pain, shooting a Katon to inturrupt or doing this to Deva himself are all potential counters to this. Some things just can?t be stopped without Susanoo though. Asura?s head laser for instance, or a falling giant summon (paralysing it doesn?t stop it falling on you). Fortunately, Itachi can at will just turn his effective invincibility on and tank whatever follows Bansho Tennin up. Unfortunately, this means Itachi has been forced to use Susanoo early, which I?ll get on to later.

Finally, Chou Shinra Tensei and Chibaku Tensei. The first is not very viable against Itachi. He?ll see the other Pains fleeing, Deva mysteriously rising into the sky and suddenly filling with chakra. If (read: he almost certainly will have by now) he?s seen Shinra Tensei, I?m willing to bet he?d recognise that Deva?s about to use that jutsu he used earlier but probably on a bigger scale. If you find that to be unlikely, then simply consider that Itachi?s a smart chap and when your foes flee save one, he starts to fill with chakra and ominously rise skyward, bad shit may follow up. Fortunately Itachi can stop this with a single kunai (Amaterasu one shots here too). Deva?s got to either take it (and probably die, Itachi can easily pinpoint his neck) or use Shinra Tensei, cancelling Chou Shinra Tensei in the process. Or Itachi can bust Susanoo out, then start the murder once the Pains return. And they will, Nagato doesn?t necessarily have any knowledge of what Itachi?s Susanoo is capable of (or Susanoo in general for that matter) and he?s the kind of guy who both doesn?t want to lose Yahiko?s body and doesn?t care if he loses a few spare bodies. He can always make new ones.

And Chibaku Tensei, again difficult to use. Pain has to run off, closer to Nagato which puts him at greater risk. All Itachi has to do to avoid it is stick close to Deva (not hard for a fast guy like him) and unless Nagato sacrifices Deva, which in the process means Chibaku Tensei comes to a premature end (he channels it through Deva, making Deva essential) Itachi won?t get caught. If Itachi doesn?t stick close enough, he?ll get caught, protect himself with Susanoo, get outlasted and die. Simple as that. Or he could snipe Deva with Amaterasu. So there is that.

Looking at them individually, the Pains and their jutsu are all able to be dealt with by Itachi. Together however, they?re a far greater threat. The basic combo of Bansho Tennin pull into anything dangerous is always a big threat, potentially forcing even Susanoo. However, if being pulled into a single body Itachi can always throw a KB at ?em, Genjutsu paralyse ?em, shoot a fireball at ?em or just outskill them in Taijutsu if they try to grab him (looking at you Hungry Ghost, Hell and Deva Realms). Pulling him into a bigass laser means Itachi needs Susanoo though. Rockets can be dealt with as I already said. Giant summons are a real problem though. Pain can easily make them close their eyes and Itachi won?t be able to kill them or repel them without MS if he can?t paralyse them. If they?re falling towards him it doesn?t matter if he Genjutsu?s them either, making this a real threat. Not necessarily to Itachi?s life directly, he can always save himself?but the jutsu required for this are always extremely costly.

Itachi on the other hand has crappy Ninjutsu. Mostly. His basic Ninjutsu arsenal is pretty rubbish here. Only his KBs will be particularly helpful and to blind Hungry Ghost, a Katon will too. Itachi?s ability to use jutsu very quickly and together is his best asset here; with a Katon and a KB he can not only temporarily paralyse and blind Hungry Ghost but he can attack the other Pains from two angles. Apart from the fact Pain won?t know which Itachi is the real one, if he throws a smoke bomb down he has the further advantage of helpfully being able to obscure Pain?s shared vision, which is a real problem for Itachi in terms of actually landing blows.

Otherwise though, it?s Amaterasu and Susanoo that allow him to compete here. Amaterasu means every body, including Deva (but not Hungry Ghost) can be one shotted. With a combination of sniping (on Deva particularly) and sweeping his eyes across the field, Itachi can at once kill one Pain while put the rest in mortal peril. Sure Deva can survive Amaterasu if he uses Shinra Tensei to blow the flames off him, but that lasts for a second. Itachi looks at Deva for two and Shinra Tensei defence is largely boned. If Itachi focuses on incinerating his head (extremely likely) Deva probably wouldn?t even get the chance to use Shinra Tensei, Nagato would just find the connection to him severed.


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## Vergil642 (Dec 30, 2009)

If Itachi sweeps his eyes across the field and covers everyone else (Hungry Ghost’s Fuujutsu Kyuuin sealing the flames on himself obviously), that leaves four (five if Deva’s still alive) in mortal peril. Assuming Hungry Ghost didn’t get offed earlier (like I dunno, when Itachi shot a Katon at him, he jumped to absorb it and got shanked for the pleasure while he was still absorbing it), this means the Pains will almost certainly all be rushing towards him so he can save them. Knowing this, Itachi can easily send out a KB and he and it can off two while they’re madly dashing to save themselves. It’s all very situational of course, the effectiveness of such a tactic varying wildly depending on many factors including how close Itachi or a KB is to Hungry Ghost, how close Hungry Ghost is to the other Pains, if he’s even alive, how many Pain’s are left alive and so on. However, it’s likely to end with at least two Pains dying (two shots of directed Amaterasu=two Pains losing their heads, with no say in the matter unless they’re quite rotund).

After this, let’s face it, Susanoo is coming out. If Itachi’s used two Amaterasu, he’s going to be exhausted, near death and his right eye will probably be blind. Having said that, at best Pain will have four bodies left. Only Fuujutsu Kyuuin and Chibaku Tensei can threaten Susanoo and Pain has no idea about this. As such, I don’t see why he wouldn’t attack Susanoo and lose at least one body the same way he lost a body to the element of surprise from Naruto’s natural energy shroud. Except this time he’ll be surprised by the fact Susanoo’s really fuggin’ fast and really tough. Susanoo, again depending on number of Pain’s left, will finish it. If there’s four left, I see Pain getting wise to the fact that he can’t do shit to it without Chibaku Tensei (potentially useless if Itachi’s offed Deva).

In summary, Pain has the advantage, but has to be very careful of Itachi’s KB tomfoolery, Hungry Ghost if he’s acting normal will get caught by a Katon and have this used against him and Susanoo and Amaterasu are serious threats as ever.

Taijutsu: This is bad for Itachi. He’s unlikely to get hit in it, his skill is confirmed to be very high (Pain’s being speculation), he’s faster than Pain (prove they’re as fast as CS2 Sasuke) and he’s got his Sharingan to help him out. However, he’s still facing six opponents. It’s unlikely he’ll be attacked in CQC by any more than three at a time. Pain’s at his best nuking from afar, with Human Realm distracting Itachi with hand to hand combat and Hungry Ghost being annoying too.  Itachi should avoid this if possible. Sure he could off Human Realm (quite frankly, I expect him to) and Hungry Ghost, individually of course (together would be too tough, he’d have to leave himself open to them or one of the other Pain’s many attacks) but the distraction it causes isn’t really worth it. One slip up and Itachi will quite possibly end up pasted/using Susanoo, both of which aren’t desirable outcomes.

Genjutsu: Ah, ever controversial against Pain. Ignoring the bullshit, the bodies are vulnerable to it. They are not immune. At all. However, you can’t Genjutsu Nagato through them. If you could Itachi would rape this so hard Konan’s butt would start bleeding. But he can’t. The best he can do is paralyse and blind the bodies with it. Which isn’t exactly a bad thing. Doing so to one body means 1/6 of Pain’s shared vision is gone, plus any bonuses associated with the other body. Nagato seemingly needs to use his other bodies to free any trapped in Genjutsu too, as we saw with Magen: Gamarinshou.

Anyway, Pain’s best option against Genjutsu is to close the eyes of the body facing Itachi. Good plan in theory, except that means Pain will lose one of his greatest assets in terms of evasion as he’ll lose some of his various vantage points. Doing this is really tough though as Nagato has to constantly be on guard to ensure he doesn‘t get a body caught. If he does, he has to use another body to go and save them, further inhibiting his full fighting abilities. This is where Genjutsu against Pain comes into it’s own; using it shuts down some of his many options. This being one of the main things that makes him so powerful, makes it a pretty dangerous thing for Pain.

Aside from that, having a KB or two out means Itachi could potentially paralyse half the Pains (with a Katon, we’re talking four for six) and potentially just mass Genjutsu all six with five KB helpers. With Karasu Bunshins, he can do it too. OOC sure, but food for thought. Oh, and Karasu Bunshin crows could potentially do this on their own by flying around the Pains. Depends on your interpretation though.

Intelligence: Nagato’s shown dick all intelligence and even less when fighting with his Pains as a group. I give this to Itachi, he’s going to be using it very well to set up traps with smoke bombs, Genjutsu paralysis and whatnot.

Strength: Pain Realms easily.

Speed: Due to better feats and an actual stat, I give this to Itachi. He’ll certainly need it considering all the shit Pain might throw at him.

Stamina: Obviously Pain.


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## Vergil642 (Dec 30, 2009)

Analysis: At the start, I see Human Realm rushing Itachi, with Hungry Ghost close behind, ready to act as a shield as he always does, probably some summons coming out, Asura maybe shooting his fist at Itachi or maybe backing up Human Realm, Deva doing nothing/using Bansho Tennin and Hell Realm picking his nose at the back. Something like that anyway. Assuming Bansho Tennin isn?t used, Human Realm might die there and then, Itachi putting a kunai right where his neck will be momentarily, him unable to stop himself as he?s already halfway through a punch Itachi already aim dodged. Or Itachi will just dodge him. If Bansho Tennin or Shinra Tensei is used, Itachi?s going to either use a KB/Genjutsu to counter this by using them to deal with whoever he?s flying into (probably Human Realm).

But?I?m not going to go any further than that in terms of what might happen, or what I think is probable. I could probably fill a post or three with just opening possibilities. What needs to be born in mind is at the start, nearly anything can happen. This makes this a really hard battle to call and analyse in general. Suffice to say Itachi won?t falter at the first hurdle. He?s got to many ways to defend himself and there?s only a handful (two, maybe three) of ways for Pain to immediately force Susanoo. But why should he? It?s unlikely he?ll start with really big guns and same goes for Itachi.

However, whatever happens as long as Susanoo doesn?t come out I can see Itachi making liberal use of Genjutsu paralysis, smoke bombs and KBs for at least a short period of time. This brutal, short lived part of the fight will see a Pain or two die, I can guarantee you that. Most likely candidates there are Hungry Ghost and Human Realm. They?re easily the most expendable, tend to be nearer the front and are just simply the easiest to kill. Deva?s got Shinra Tensei to defend himself, Animal Realm?s probably inside a giant summon by this point, Asura?s a goddamn robot and Hell Realm?s probably nestled with Animal Realm and generally has the other Pains protecting him.

Hell Realm will soon rez whoever died, Itachi will have figured out shared vision, probably guessed each body has only one or two jutsu each and likely figured out Human Realm?s just Taijutsu (effectively anyway, he needs Taijutsu to do his one jutsu), Hungry Ghost is just Fuujutsu Kyuuin, Animal Realm is just summoning and Asura?s a goddamn robot. And if he sees some rezzin? occurrin? he?ll see Hell Realm?s ability and probably get to figure out Deva controls attraction/repulsion forces.

At that point I see him offing a couple more bodies, prioritising them this time. I?d hazard a guess that the priorities as Deva Realm=Hell Realm>Hungry Ghost Realm>Asura Realm>Human Realm. Simply because Deva is the annoying bastard who throws Itachi into the paths of the other attacks, putting him in mortal peril the most, Hell Realm will just keep Pain going until Itachi exhausts himself, Hungry Ghost is annoying and pretty easy to kill compared to the others, Asura?s dangerous but someone you can deal with (being pretty straightforward as he is) and Human Realm?s just a bit rubbish.

This is really  just conjecture though. I?m sure a body or two will die to the patented Katon for Hungry Ghost (temporarily paralysing and blinding him), KB or two to paralyse and blind a body each while Itachi paralyses/blinds another body with Genjutsu. Potentially half of Pain is paralysed and blinded until another Pain saves them while Hungry Ghost is temporarily in the same state as he?ll have a face full of fireball in the way. In such a scenario (that?s easily engineered too), Itachi and one KB means at least Hungry Ghost will die (if there?s less than six Pains, the odds of more dying increase exponentially as a single Pain is simply not able to stop Itachi), probably a second (I?d hazard a guess at saying Asura and Deva will be paralysed at this point, Animal Realm too if Itachi uses two KBs, as once those two/three are out of the picture the remaining Pains are easily slaughtered) and possibly a third if a second KB is utilised.

The success of similar plans then leads directly to the odds of success for Itachi?s Amaterasu and Susanoo. The less Pains (particularly important to kill are Deva and Hungry Ghost here) there are, the higher the chances Itachi kills the rest with the two MS jutsu that are actually useful here. Put simply, I sincerely doubt Pain survives an MS onslaught if it follows the death of one to three realms(potentially four). If Hungry Ghost and Deva are dead, using Amaterasu=game over Pain. They simply can?t survive the black flames if those two aren?t around to get them off them. Even if they die slowly, they still end up dead.

And funnily enough, as long as Hungry Ghost is dead it?s easy for Itachi do to such a thing. After all, he just has to focus on Deva?s head and poof, it?s gone! He can maintain Amaterasu for a second longer, sweep his eyes across the other Pains and voila, the rest also have the flames on them and will burn to death.

Evaluation: Strangely, the longer this fight goes on for (to an extent) the better Itachi?s chances are. He?ll be hard pressed at the start, as he might actually be surprised by the sheer firepower Pain brings to the table. Being forced into Susanoo is a possibility, although I doubt it?s a big one,  but doing so before he chooses to would be catastrophic for Itachi. The longer he survives though, the better an understanding of Pain?s powers he?ll get and thus the more informed he?ll be on who he should kill first. When it comes down to it, I feel Itachi has what it takes to do this. With the highest of difficulties of course. Using an MS onslaught to finish off the bodies (again, I feel strongly that he?ll off a few Pain bodies, some of whom will be rezzed of course, without MS) is an utter necessity though. In the end, I give it to Itachi 6/10, maybe just leaving it as a 50/50 draw.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Vergil642 said:


> Bitch please, you should know I have many more arguments than just that.
> 
> Also, a quick preview of the below: Crow Genjutsu and five KBs=all six Pains either potentially or definitely paralysed and vulnerable to any further attack
> 
> ...


I got no links (evidence) at all.

I just got Nikushimi flash backs.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

^^^ tragic irony...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> ^^^ tragic irony...



I know. Never thought I'd miss Nikushimi.

Though, about the evidence part...you've hardly got room to talk.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Pain rapes.

This shouldn't even be a debate


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 30, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> Where did you get this, they have shared vision from the rinnegan primarily. They dont have the same ears.



How would animal realm talk to jiraiya if they didnt have shared hearing? Or deva talking to naruto.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

DarkRasengan said:


> How would animal realm talk to jiraiya if they didnt have shared hearing? Or deva talking to naruto.



They don't have shared hearing.

Although, they probably have shared thinking. In other words, when one of them hears something they think about it, and then that thought get's transfered to the rest of the bodies.

Basically the same thing.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I know. Never thought I'd miss Nikushimi.
> 
> Though, about the evidence part...you've hardly got room to talk.



Your whole post was so...

BTW i want evidence...


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## Complete_Ownage (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> I just can't understand how guys say pain wins with high difficulty and can't accept the possibility that itachi wins the fight.This is rather contradictory.
> 
> When you say that someone wins a fight with high difficulty,that means in your opinion,there are possibilities that itaci wins the fight if circumstances are good for him;I believe that itachi wins this with high difficulty 8/10




When I mean Pein wins with high difficulty does not mean Itachi has a chance of winning. What I simply mean is that not even Pein is going to have an easy battle against someone of Itachi talent and skill. 

Itachi has ZERO chance of winning this fight with no knowledge. EVEN IF itachi had full knowledge he would still be hard pressed to win the fight. Peins individual bodies are no means spectacular by there own(besides a fully amped up deva) but what makes this jutsu so deadly is the way the bodies comprehend and work together in battle. Itachi fighitng STYLE and chakra is his biggest weakness in this battle.

A well played Animal realm with another body could wreck havoc on Itachi alone.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Your whole post was so...



Cool, prove it.



> BTW i want evidence...



For what?

Address Daviddd's post for that. He has put a lot of evidence in one image.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

Complete_Ownage said:


> When I mean Pein wins with high difficulty does not mean Itachi has a chance of winning. What I simply mean is that not even Pein is going to have an easy battle against someone of Itachi talent and skill.
> 
> Itachi has ZERO chance of winning this fight with no knowledge. EVEN IF itachi had full knowledge he would still be hard pressed to win the fight. Peins individual bodies are no means spectacular by there own(besides a fully amped up deva) but what makes this jutsu so deadly is the way the bodies comprehend and work together in battle. Itachi fighitng STYLE and chakra is his biggest weakness in this battle.
> 
> A well played Animal realm with another body could wreck havoc on Itachi alone.


Animal realm???Hell no,Itachi can speedblitz him or amaterasu his ass.Deva didn't take care for summons who are quite slow to say the least


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Cool, prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cool! Pains abilities.  Now i know why he would beat Itachi. These were not shown in the manga. Oh wait...


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Cool! Pains abilities.  Now i know why he would beat Itachi. These were not shown in the manga. Oh wait...



Those powers were shown in the manga. 

But you've yet to refute anything.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Those powers were shown in the manga.
> 
> But you've yet to refute anything.



 Refuting Pains abilities... Yeah its difficult to prove they are wrong, invalid etc... I accept defeat. You are right... Pain has these abilities.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Animal realm???Hell no,Itachi can speedblitz him or amaterasu his ass.Deva didn't take care for summons who are quite slow to say the least



He would use a defensive summon,as he did against Jiraiya's Kibari senbon(or whatever its name was).


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Animal realm???Hell no,Itachi can speedblitz him or amaterasu his ass.Deva didn't take care for summons who are quite slow to say the least



Speedblitz?

k.

Itachi get's raped in every way.


Forget animal realm Deva solo's.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Speedblitz?
> 
> k.
> 
> ...



Deva? The one who got raped by kakashi?


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Speedblitz?
> 
> k.
> 
> ...



Yeah the guy who was beaten by kakashi will solo itachi ......


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Deva? The one who got raped by kakashi?



Deva the guy who raped Kakashi+Choza+choji.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Refuting Pains abilities... Yeah its difficult to prove they are wrong, invalid etc... I accept defeat. You are right... Pain has these abilities.



Which seemingly are more than enough for Itachi.:ho

Taijutsu, useless. Ninjutsu, useless. The popular argument of Genjutsu one body=Genjutsu'ing them all is BS with no proof.

So most of Itachi's weapons are useless. Plus he has no real answer to a Banshou Ten'in combo. But hey, if I'm wrong prove it.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Deva the guy who raped Kakashi+Choza+choji.



Didnt he need Asura too? BTW these were hindrances. Kakashi could one shot with Kamui Deva instead of saving Chouji...


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

No,Deva solo'd the three of them after Asura was out.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

LOOOL at the trolls. I hope you guys know you lost all  credibility with everyone on this forum.

Deva solo'd SM Naruto+3 frog bosses+Fukasaku in 3-4 pages.

Stop trolling. He never lost. And he didn't even bother to use bansho tenin. Ever thought of the fact that he was keeping his energy to fight the the rest of the village including the hokage?


Other than saying lolol he lost, how about you provide me with something credible. Anyone who thinks Itachi>Pain is a troll. Nothing more, nothing less.

Go back to masturbating over Itachi panels.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Didnt he need Asura too? BTW these were hindrances. Kakashi could one shot with Kamui Deva instead of saving Chouji...



Asura is part of Pain.

Kakashi can one shot everyone in the manga... including Itachi.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Which seemingly are more than enough for Itachi.:ho
> 
> Taijutsu, useless. Ninjutsu, useless. The popular argument of Genjutsu one body=Genjutsu'ing them all is BS with no proof.
> 
> So most of Itachi's weapons are useless. Plus he has no real answer to a Banshou Ten'in combo. But hey, if I'm wrong prove it.



Speed blitz, superior hand seal, tactical brilliance, intelligence, superior Genjutsu, bushin overpowering, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, susanoo, invincible legendary items.  These are not useless. But hey thats why Vergil posted. For you to read.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> No,Deva solo'd the three of them after Asura was out.



aha so he used the help of Asura to exhaust them.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^No,he didn't want to use his power against miserable bugs.:ho


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Asura is part of Pain.
> 
> Kakashi can one shot everyone in the manga... including Itachi.



No,KB is kamui's nightmare,especially when he doesn't see them coming


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Speed blitz, superior hand seal, tactical brilliance, intelligence, superior Genjutsu, bushin overpowering, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, susanoo, invincible legendary items.  These are not useless. But hey thats why Vergil posted. For you to read.



Speedblitz:

Itachi isn't blitzing Pain. This is a guy who was able to outrun a kn6 Naruto. And go to the obd, Pain is the only person in Naruto who has been proven to have hypersonic reactions. He dodged FRS at point blank.

Hand seals:

Irrelevant. Pain doesn't need hand seals

Intelligence:
Give me one notable intellignece feat from Itachi. Pain>Itachi in intelligence. His formation against Naruto was a smart move, and it resulted in him eventually gaining the upper hand.

Genjutsu:

He can only genjutsu one body at a time. Munboy already addressed this.

Bunshin overpowering:

You are kidding right?

Amaterasu:
Get's absorbed by fat Pain. Deva won't stand there when MS get's activated.
inb4 you say he can't, just because he can't

Susan-o:

Isn't immune to gravity, or else it wouldn't be earthbound



These things aren't useless, but they aren't doing anything to Pain.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Speed blitz, superior hand seal, tactical brilliance, intelligence, superior Genjutsu, bushin overpowering, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, susanoo, invincible legendary items.  These are not useless. But hey thats why Vergil posted. For you to read.



Vergil gave me a post (read it all); no links.

You just did listing with obvious hyperboles --- with no evidence at all.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> aha so he used the help of Asura to exhaust them.



My god...

Asura _is_ Pain.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Speed blitz, superior hand seal, tactical brilliance, intelligence, superior Genjutsu, bushin overpowering, amaterasu, tsukuyomi, susanoo, invincible legendary items.  These are not useless. But hey thats why Vergil posted. For you to read.



So,that's everything Itachi got to face Pain.
Not enough


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## Phoenix Zoro (Dec 30, 2009)

pain doesnt rape, they sort of spend time scoping eachothers basic powers so they no what they are up against, maybe itachi defeats the summoning body or something. Then pain gets serious, kicks itachi around for a bit, itachi activates ms and take a body with amaterasu. He then activates tsukoyomi to realise it doesnt work and he had been impaled. Realising his inevitable defeat, he activates perfect susanoo which takes out a couple more bodies, the remaining pains wait for his chakra reserves to run dry and kill him. Itachi body count = 4, good fight but defeat for uchiha


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> So,that's everything Itachi got to face Pain.
> Not enough


Basic skills from these were enough to pwn Kage level opponents. Oro, Deidara etc...  And Itachi was not even serious... lol


♠Ace♠ said:


> My god...
> 
> Asura _is_ Pain.


We talked about Deva specifically.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Vergil gave me a post (read it all); no links.
> 
> You just did listing with obvious hyperboles --- with no evidence at all.



And you just listed Pains abilities. This is not proof. On the other hand Vergils post was a perfecr post explaining things you want to know.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> And you just listed Pains abilities. This is not proof. On the other hand Vergils post was a perfecr post explaining things you want to know.



It would've been perfect had I gotten evidence; I didn't.

You never told me how Itachi answers to a Banshou Ten'in combo with all. With Pain already nulling 2/3 of the shinobi arts completely.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

> they sort of spend time scoping eachothers basic powers so they no what they are up against



He tried to kill Jiraiya without testing anything.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Basic skills from these were enough to pwn Kage level opponents. Oro, Deidara etc...  And Itachi was not even serious... lol



Still not enough.
It would take a shinobi with bijuu level chakra,extreme intelligence,uber speed and fantastic nijutsu to have a chance of defeating Pain,the only o,ne that fits this description is


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It would've been perfect had I gotten evidence; I didn't.
> 
> You never told me how Itachi answers to a Banshou Ten'in combo with all. With Pain already nulling 2/3 of the shinobi arts completely.



I will copy paste this answer from now on:

It would've been perfect had I gotten evidence; I didn't.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Speedblitz:
> 
> Itachi isn't blitzing Pain. This is a guy who was able to outrun a kn6 Naruto. And go to the obd, Pain is the only person in Naruto who has been proven to have hypersonic reactions. He dodged FRS at point blank.



Yeah,the same pain who was in par with kakashi in speed,who had a taijutsu exchange with base naruto without having the upper hand for a while.Who couldn't react to Jiraiya's punch;Nothing which is comparable to Raikage,Itachi,CS2 sasuke.....


♠Ace♠ said:


> Intelligence:
> Give me one notable intellignece feat from Itachi. Pain>Itachi in intelligence. His formation against Naruto was a smart move, and it resulted in him eventually gaining the upper hand.


Yeah,pain is more intelligent.The guy who was easily manipulated by madara is smarter than the guy who'll destroy all of madara's plans,who planned his brother's whole life.....


♠Ace♠ said:


> Genjutsu:
> 
> He can only genjutsu one body at a time. Munboy already addressed this.


Itachi can use karasu bunshin and use genjutsu ,or as kakashi showed,he can genjutsu multiple bodies.


♠Ace♠ said:


> Amaterasu:
> Get's absorbed by fat Pain. Deva won't stand there when MS get's activated.
> inb4 you say he can't, just because he can't


Yeah,and itachi,who'll have discovered HGR's ability before that will use amatearsu when HGR is around;



♠Ace♠ said:


> Susan-o:
> 
> Isn't immune to gravity, or else it wouldn't be earthbound


KN6 could withstand ST4s power,Susano'o can most likely do.And the sword of totsuka is very fast,so it's more than useful,since one body sealed=no possible regeneration.


♠Ace♠ said:


> These things aren't useless, but they aren't doing anything to Pain.



It's your point of view,i proved all your points were false.Try again


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Still not enough.
> It would take a shinobi with bijuu level chakra,extreme intelligence,uber speed and fantastic nijutsu to have a chance of defeating Pain,the only o,ne that fits this description is



 Jiraiya too... oh wait


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Yeah,pain is more intelligent.The guy who was easily manipulated by madara is smarter than the guy who'll destroy all of madara's plans,who planned his brother's whole life....


.

Cool story,Kishi.


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> .
> 
> Cool story,Kishi.



Yeah its funny that Kishi is the one who showed that.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Jiraiya too... oh wait



Did Jiraiya have uber speed,great intelligence,and fantastic ninjutsu??


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## Panos (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Did Jiraiya have uber speed,great intelligence,and fantastic ninjutsu??



Not comparable to Itachis.  Why?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> I will copy paste this answer from now on:
> 
> It would've been perfect had I gotten evidence; I didn't.



Cool. But you need to actually provide the evidence.

You still didn't answer the question; have you no refutes?


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Not comparable to Itachis.  Why?



What??
Don't tell me u are one of those who believe HM Jiraiya<Itachi?
Wait u believe Pain<Itachi


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## Phoenix Zoro (Dec 30, 2009)

there is no evidence to suggests how gravity affects susanoo, how amaterasu will affect hungry ghost, how the sharingan in general will react to the rinnegan etc. With all these variables, we can only estimate who is strongest through guesswork, evidence is useless with the two fighters here because we could argue all day how their best techniques would affect one another. 

Common knowledge suggests pain would win
Despite itachi being the greater genius, the rinnegan stomps quite simply

Rinnegan > Sharingan almost regardless of the talent of the user, as shown by the way nagato effortlessly killed those shinobi in the war. Itachi could be the one exception, but nagato clearly has mastery over rinnegan

Also, 6 on 1 is not a good matchup for sharingan, everything points to pain

And im an itachi fanboy


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^If i remember well,it was a close shot.
As for Itachi vs Pain,see the poll.:ho


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

> Yeah,the same pain who was in par with kakashi in speed,who had a taijutsu exchange with base naruto without having the upper hand for a while.Who couldn't react to Jiraiya's punch;Nothing which is comparable to Raikage,Itachi,CS2 sasuke.....



Did you just compare Sasuke and Raiage in speed?
Again, Pain dodged an FRS at point blank. Hypersonic reaction.

SM Naruto isn't slow. He's on par with Itachi in speed...
And yeah, he got kicked by the guy with the best strength feats and shrugged it off. 

When did he not react to Jiraiyas punch?
Human realm was able to block Jiraiyas HM punch with one hand while blinded. Come again?



> Yeah,pain is more intelligent.The guy who was easily manipulated by madara is smarter than the guy who'll destroy all of madara's plans,who planned his brother's whole life..


What does manipulation have to do with anything about intelligence?
Stop diverting the argument to irrelevent subjects. 

Minato clearly said Pain was being used because of his hatred/emotions.

This doesn't change his ability to fight intelligently at all.



> Itachi can use karasu bunshin and use genjutsu ,or as kakashi showed,he can genjutsu multiple bodies.




Go read Kakashi's feat again.



> Yeah,and itachi,*who'll have discovered HGR's ability* before that will use amatearsu when HGR is around;



Stop speculating, just because you like the character.



> KN6 could withstand ST4s power,Susano'o can most likely do.And the sword of totsuka is very fast,so it's more than useful,since one body sealed=no possible regeneration.



_Most likely_ isn't a great word to use in a debate. Leave speculation out of this.
Sword of totsuka isn't as fast as a point blank FRS to the face.



> It's your point of view,i proved all your points *were false.*Try again


Lol whatever makes you sleep at night.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

I just want someone to give me something that Itachi can't dodge or counter in pain's arsenl(except for CT since all itachi has to do is not to let Deva flee away and amatearsu his ass while trying to get close to nagato)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> -snip-



Concession accepted.



uchiha itachi 92 said:


> how amaterasu will affect hungry ghost



Amaterasu is Ninjutsu with the nature to incinerate. Preta Realm's barrier according to the databook nullifies the nature of chakra then absorbs it.



> With all these variables, we can only estimate who is strongest through guesswork, evidence is useless with the two fighters here because we could argue all day how their best techniques would affect one another.



Most of them are explained via the nature of the jutsu, databook etc.

Any counter Itachi has to a Banshou Ten'in+5 Pain Realm combo?


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

I honestly dont see pain taking this match 
all pain basically has against him is numbers which don't really 
count for anything since itachi has susanoo as a last resort
and amaterasu in case pain desides to use shinra tensei and the absorbing body has shown no ability to absorb instant justsu such as amaterasu 
or itachi could use kage bushins to flank him 
kakashi has shown us that a well planned strategy and well placed kage bushins can defeat pain 
but of course he was only fighting one at the time but still managed to outsmart him while their were two as well 
since itachi is well known for using kage bunshins to feint his opponents i figure that would work against pain but not as easy since theirs 6 of them and only one of him 
itachi is also a genjutsu specialist and gejutsu seems to work well on pain as proved when he fought jiraiya 
pain has shown no immunity to genjutsu  but has been shown to be vulnerable to it depending on the level of the genjutsu 
itachi's shadow clones are also able to cast genjutsu as well pain would have to avoid looking at itachi's eyes and fingers which gives him the advantage 
itachi's hand speed and base speed is greater than pains 
itachi has been shown to have great reaction time as shown in his fight with kakashi 
and sasuke and was also able to out last sasuke while in a fatal condition with his chakra heavily decreased and jutsu weakened though outlasting pain is not possible itachi wont get tired as easily as everyone seems to think 
itachi would notice the 5 second interval with god realm as use that to his advantage 
the summons wont be a problem itachi's ninjutsu is strong enough to defeat any summon or at least injure them but pain wont summon as many as he did against jiraiya 
unless he starts out with one body first but if all six are out then he probably wont summon as many even if he did itachi's Bakuha bushin should take care of it and it can also be used to seperate the pains from each other and injure them as well possibly kill one since it is a powerful jutsu he also has crow clones to distract and throw off pains visual connection to the other bodies and determining wether it's the real itachi is impossible since his bunshin speed is extremely fast and has been shown to be able to use them in CQC
itachi's is also skilled in taijustsu and is pretty much even with jiraiya in that department 
both of them have a 4.5 in taijutsu so itachi could blind pains taijutsu body 
this would be a good fight but i see itachi comming out victorious in the end 
especially since itachi is healthy but it would be difficult.
As for jiraiya's fight with pain im positive he would have won if pain would have started off with all 6 bodies out 
pains strategy was to tire jiraiya out so that when he did take out the other 3 he wouldn't be able to do anything 
like i said before this still wouldn't be an easy fight but i see itachi defeating him 
and wether you're an itachi fan or a pain fan saying either one could win easily is 
incredibly stupid and you should stop watching naruto immediately


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

Peaceful Uchiha said:


> Pain was a fodder villain hence his limited appearance and no depth in his character. However, he is is fresh in peoples minds as a villain who destoyed Konoha.



Itachi was also a fodder by your standards,he had less time screen(apart from the same flashbacks everytime we mention his name),and has never done something worth mentioning to the main plot(now Danzo is taking his role):ho


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Did you just compare Sasuke and Raiage in speed?
> Again, Pain dodged an FRS at point blank. Hypersonic reaction.
> 
> SM Naruto isn't slow. He's on par with Itachi in speed...
> ...



1.Again i wasn't talking about SM naruto,but base naruto who faced Deva and went toe to toe with him.I didn't compare sasuke's speed to raikage's but said that both were superior to HM jiraiya(sauke in CS2).Just because pain was the only one who faced something with supersonic speed doesn't mean shit.We have guys with greater speed who can do better if they were in the same position.

2.But pain didn't see him coming,you got the point.He may have good reflexes(but again nothing compared to the top),but speedwise he sin't there

3.The guy who was fooled like shit by KB ,while itachi was never fooled.theguy who showed terrible strategy by sending HGR first in the battle....can't be compared to the greatest genius of the manga.Try again

4.Kakashi casted a genjutsu on few anbu,what's wrong with this??


5.Okay,HM jiraiya(who isn't the brightest bolb) could figure out his ability in two attacks,while Itachi can't .Brilliant 

6.Oro couldn't react to the totsuka sword,the sword easily cut yamata's head very quickly....It may not be supersonic,but at least it's very fast,and can hit pain bodies if used in an appropriate way.


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## Chainer (Dec 30, 2009)

In b4 everyone spamming non-contributive posts gets a section ban.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

You're aware Pain has a counter for everything you mentioned.



> itachi has susanoo as a last resort
> and amaterasu



Both are chakra; therefore absorbent. Amaterasu can't actually counter Shinra Tensei, its chakra; look what chakra did against Shinra Tensei, FRS and the Raikiri wolf failed.



> or kage bushins to flank him



Naruto used his real self against Preta Realm as his clones would be absorbed.
Shinra Tensei got rid of a 1000 clones.



> kakashi has shown us that a well planned strategy and well placed kage bushins can defeat pain
> 
> but of course he was only fighting one at the time but still managed to outsmart him while their were two as well



He needed external help to get close to beating Pain, however.



> since itachi is well known for using kage bunshins to feint his opponents i figure that would work against pain but not as easy since theirs 6 of them and only one of him



Itachi has 2.5 in stamina. Do you know how drained he'll be if he uses Kage Bunshin a lot?



> itachi is also a genjutsu specialist and gejutsu seems to work well on pain as proved when he fought jiraiya



Didn't Jiraiya count on Pain underestimating his Genjutsu skill? Will Pain underestimate a Genjutsu specialist?



> itachi's shadow clones are also able to cast genjutsu as well pain would have to avoid looking at itachi's eyes and fingers which gives him the advantage
> itachi's hand speed and base speed is greater than pains
> itachi has been shown to have great reaction time as shown in his fight with kakashi



With his stamina you think he can really afford to use Kage Bunshin like that?



> and sasuke and was also able to out last sasuke while in a fatal condition with his chakra heavily decreased and jutsu weakened though outlasting pain is not possible itachi wont get tired as easily as everyone seems to think
> itachi would notice the 5 second interval with god realm as use that to his advantage



There are other Pain Realms to help with the 5 sec. interval.



> the summons wont be a problem itachi's ninjutsu is strong enough to defeat any summon or at least injure them but pain wont summon as many as he did against jiraiya



What about the one which refuses to die? The one which will multiply.



> unless he starts out with one body first but if all six are out then he probably wont summon as many even if he did itachi's Bakuha bushin should take care of it and it can also be used to seperate the pains from each other and injure them as well possibly kill one since it is a powerful jutsu he also has crow clones to distract and throw off pains visual connection to the other bodies and determining wether it's the real itachi is impossible since his bunshin speed is extremely fast and has been shown to be able to use them in CQC
> itachi's is also skilled in taijustsu and is pretty much even with jiraiya in that department



You know if a Bunshin is send towards them it'll either be repelled or absorbed, which makes the plan futile and Itachi will have his chakra divided in half. 



> both of them have a 4.5 in taijutsu so itachi could blind pains taijutsu body
> this would be a good fight but i see itachi comming out victorious in the end
> especially since itachi is healthy but it would be difficult.



So just because a Senjutsu Jiraiya can do something, Itachi can?



> As for jiraiya's fight with pain im positive he would have won if pain would have started off with all 6 bodies out



Despite Pain not using half his powers?



> pains strategy was to tire jiraiya out so that when he did take out the other 3 he wouldn't be able to do anything



Where was it said he wanted to tire him out?


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## Phoenix Zoro (Dec 30, 2009)

you gotta remember its in character...
itachi wouldnt spam amaterasu on deva realm from the start and then own the remaining bodies like fodder because he wouldnt know their powers and what deva realm could do form the start. For all itachi knows, human path is the most dangerous

On the other side of the coin, IC Pain wouldnt spam Chibaku from the start either to make itachi release susanoo early doors and waste chakra

Like i said, IC, they would test each others out first, Pain with summoning body most likely and itachi regular sharingan before pain would most likely get serious first. From there, its a battle where pain probably has more knowledge as he scopes out itachi's ms abilities whilst itachi has to fight 6 different styles of attack (probably relatively successfully). However, itachi and pain will only resort to CT and susanoo as a last resort, meaning if itachi isnt taken by deva first, he would probably be forced to realise susanoo first, giving pain a chance to try and counter

Any way you look at this, pain has an advantage with rinnegan and six bodies

Victory for itachi isnt impossible, but pain is more likely to win more of the fights if it was done over and over with different outcomes

Its a poor matchup for itachi and tbh, pain is too hax as he can counter even the ms's most dangerous attacks

also, pain's chakra reserves slaughter itachi's


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## Sadgoob (Dec 30, 2009)

I think the problem is that you're relying on _Preta Realm_ being able to do everything when he's not that fast nor is he that reflexive and, to put the nail in the coffin, he can be put in to Genjutsu while Itachi dishes out damage. I agree that Pein wins, but it is not as simple as Pein effortlessly countering _Susano, Amatarasu, Tsukiyomi, Exploding Bunchin_, and hordes and hordes of Genjutsu and speed. If Preta Realm s predisposes, there will be heavy damage, and it's questionable whether Pein can recover from _Amatarasu_.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> 1.Again i wasn't talking about SM naruto,but base naruto who faced Deva and went toe to toe with him.I didn't compare sasuke's speed to raikage's but said that both were superior to HM jiraiya(sauke in CS2).Just because pain was the only one who faced something with supersonic speed doesn't mean shit.We have guys with greater speed who can do better if they were in the same position.
> 
> 2.But pain didn't see him coming,you got the point.He may have good reflexes(but again nothing compared to the top),but speedwise he sin't there
> 
> ...




1. He went toe to toe with a Pain who was basically exhausted by then
He used multiple shinrai tenseis, soul sucking, Chou shinrai tensei, Chibaku tensei, Rocket attacks, multiple summons, a couple of bansho tenins,body reviving etc. etc.

Note: Chibaku tensei is a multi-mountain buster. And he said he could make a bigger one, even though Nagato was clearly exhausted.



Itachi would've have been out of chakra by then.

This isn't a comparison, Pain was insanely tired and Naruto had magical revive jutsu.


Pain dodged a supersonic moving object at point blank. Do you realize how fast a mach 5 movement is?

Pain is hypersonic there is no speedblitz at all. 

At all.

2. He has hypersonic reactions. No one else does.
And do you know what I'm talking about? Jiraiya went after a human realm who was blinded and was turned around. Then human realm reacted, turned around and stopped his HM attack with one hand.

Pain>Itachi in power.

3. 

Are you dumb or just acting this way?

4. They were point blank. And they were fodder. What's not wrong with this?

5. Are you dumb? Jiraiya had a background with each and every body, and had a background with Nagato, yahiko and the rinnegan. Without that he wouldn't have figured out anything.

Unless you want to argue that Itachi knows all that too just becausehe is 

7. Sword of totsuka hit an object that easily dwarfed Orochimaru. There's no way to miss.

Sword of totsuka isn't as fast as FRS. 

It's earthbound, therefore it is affected by gravity.

Therefore, shinrai tensei works on it.

Try again.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I think the problem is that you're relying on _Preta Realm_ being able to do everything when he's not that fast nor is he that reflexive



Are you suggesting Pain will split up? The only way the Preta Realm can do things that way is due to the Realms being close to each other. 



> he can be put in to Genjutsu while Itachi dishes out damage.



What about the others?



> _Susano, Amatarasu, Tsukiyomi, Exploding Bunchin_, and hordes and hordes of Genjutsu and speed.



Three of the four jutsu you mentioned can be taken care of by Shinra Tensei and absorption. 

Hordes of Genjutsu? Is Itachi going to be pointing fingers throughout the battle?

Speed? Seeing every panel he's been in...that's more reaction time. Going by what Zetsu complained about in terms of actual movement he shouldn't miles faster than the manga showed him being.



> If Preta Realm s predisposes, there will be heavy damage, and it's questionable whether Pein can recover from _Amatarasu_.



You know...Pain has two counters to Ninjutsu, Preta Realm and God Realm. If you want to count the panda from Animal Realm, make that three.


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## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

nagato would utterly rape itachi. why was this thread even made lol? 

summon spam would give itachi enough trouble. throwing things like devas  moon making , village nukers, human realms soul ripping powers, asuras missles and lazer canons that destroy houses in seconds, hungry ghosts ability to absorb almost everything itachi throws, and to top it off a realm that can bring the others back.


and if this was a healthy nagato he could summon gedo mazo. itachi is simply outclassed here. itachi is skilled as hell , i'll give him that. but the power difference between them is to great for itachi to win.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Do people really think Pain is weak to genjutsu?

I can tell you why this is retarded.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 30, 2009)

I realize that Pein has counters, I'm merely pointing out that Itachi has flawless execution. Attacks may get through and cause problems especially if there is one or two _Karasu Bunshins_ thrown in to the mix. If Preta Realm is dropped with _Tsukiyomi_ then a single swipe from the _Sword of Totsuka_ would cause quite a bit of damage. Itachi would die from exhaustion, but Pein wouldn't be unscathed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Do people really think Pain is weak to genjutsu?
> 
> I can tell you why this is retarded.



I'm not sure. Especially since he's got the mastery of the mainstream Ninjutsu to use the 'undo' seal (Pain bodies seem to be able to use basic jutsu such as substitution and Shunshin) and he has other bodies to bail him out. 

I mean he's got what he needs to counter Genjutsu, so I don't get where this Pain=weak against Genjutsu came from.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Illusory said:


> I realize that Pein has counters, I'm merely pointing out that Itachi has flawless execution. Attacks may get through and cause problems especially if there is one or two _Karasu Bunshins_ thrown in to the mix. If Preta Realm is dropped with _Tsukiyomi_ then a single swipe from the _Sword of Totsuka_ would cause quite a bit of damage. Itachi would die from exhaustion, but Pein wouldn't be unscathed.



Wouldn't the God Realm use Shinra Tensei to rid the group of crows? I mean the way you described it suggests that Pain will not even attempt to help a Path in danger.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

^^Man,are you said that itachi can't cast multiple genjutsu,i proved you wrong.kakashi showed the ability to do so .Itachi,who is much better,should do better.He can also use karasu bunshin and genjutsu some bodies.

And lol at how Jiraiya knew HGR's ability,all u said is pure crap.Jiraiya never saw this ability,and the body that nagato used to make HGr didn't have this ability.That's 
Jiraiya discovered the ability in the battle,plain and simple.

And your logic about speed is inaccurate since other characters(who have actual speed feats) are much faster than pain.And reflexes =/=speed.

In the first exchange with HM jiraiya,animal realm was almost speedblitzed(he couldn't see anything after that).


KN6 withstood CT and reversed it,can you prove Susano'o can't??Okay...


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## DarkRasengan (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> ^^Man,are you said that itachi can't cast multiple genjutsu,i proved you wrong.kakashi showed the ability to do so .Itachi,who is much better,should do better.He can also use karasu bunshin and genjutsu some bodies.
> 
> And lol at how Jiraiya knew HGR's ability,all u said is pure crap.Jiraiya never saw this ability,and the body that nagato used to make HGr didn't have this ability.That's
> Jiraiya discovered the ability in the battle,plain and simple.
> ...



Can u prove it can? and even if it could itachi would die from using it, and pain would outlast him.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

It has been proven that Byakugan sees through genjutsu(Ao said he saw through Yagura's genjutsu),so would the Rinnegan(it being the most powerful doujutsu).So i really don't think Pain can fall in a genjutsu


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> ^^Man,are you said that itachi can't cast multiple genjutsu,i proved you wrong.kakashi showed the ability to do so .Itachi,who is much better,should do better.He can also use karasu bunshin and genjutsu some bodies.



Never said that.



> And lol at how Jiraiya knew HGR's ability,all u said is pure crap.Jiraiya never saw this ability,and the body that nagato used to make HGr didn't have this ability.That's
> Jiraiya discovered the ability in the battle,plain and simple.
> 
> And your logic about speed is inaccurate since other characters(who have actual speed feats) are much faster than pain.And reflexes =/=speed.
> ...



Erm when did I say any of this?


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## Sadgoob (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wouldn't the God Realm use Shinra Tensei to rid the group of crows? I mean the way you described it suggests that Pain will not even attempt to help a Path in danger.



How tricky is Naruto compared to Itachi? How immediately deadly are Naruto's attacks compared to Itachi's? You act as if there is nothing Itachi can do when the fact is that even while ill he has options to cause problems for Pein. The lack of knowledge is what takes away any chance of victory for him, but that doesn't change the fact that the battle wouldn't be an easy one for Pein.


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

Yup.


Also Pain placed a multiple layered mind control genjutsu on someone. So strong the examiners were baffled by how strong it was.


the only genjutsu Pain lost to was one of the strongest.

Pain isn't weak to genjutsu. Get over it.


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Never said that.
> 
> 
> 
> Erm when did I say any of this?



Sorry,this was meant to Ace


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

@Godtachi: Itachi never showed the ability to cast multiple genjutsu,so no he can't.
Otherwise we can talk about elemental cannon Nagato has hidden in his hair,his insta death no jutsu he can cast over mortals..yes,we can since he can use every jutsu?


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Yup.
> 
> 
> Also Pain placed a multiple layered mind control genjutsu on someone. So strong the examiners were baffled by how strong it was.
> ...



Placing genjutsu on fodder(we don't know how he did it,maybe he caught them in his crappy labs and mind-fucked them for all we know) doesn't mean he isn't weak to genjutsu.And being a genjutsu specialist doesn't grant you immunity(Kurenai,Oro anyone??)


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> @Godtachi: Itachi never showed the ability to cast multiple genjutsu,so no he can't.
> Otherwise we can talk about elemental cannon Nagato has hidden in his hair,his insta death no jutsu he can cast over mortals..yes,we can since he can use every jutsu?



Kakashi could,Itachi is infinitely better than kakashi in sharingan genjutsu,do the maths.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

Illusory said:


> How tricky is Naruto compared to Itachi? How immediately deadly are Naruto's attacks compared to Itachi's? You act as if there is nothing Itachi can do when the fact is that even while ill he has options to cause problems for Pein. The lack of knowledge is what loses this for him, but that doesn't change the fact that the battle wouldn't be an easy one.



Well you see, we've never seen a battle where Pain used all the paths with the God Realm. He didn't seem to have a need against Jiraiya (DB says he was in no fighting condition); not against Naruto for obvious reasons.

Also Katsuya referred to the God Realm as the main Pain...wouldn't the main Pain play a role in the fight? Remember what a difference he made with one body accompanying him in battle? Here he's got five.

Uchiha Itachi is one of the strongest shinobi this manga's seen; but from what we know of his powers I doubt he can give Pain high difficulty.
Thinking about it I'd say moderate, even the legendary Sannin Jiraiya couldn't get Pain to use half his powers.

But apologies if I do suggest this will be an easy win.


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## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Kakashi could,Itachi is infinitely better than kakashi in sharingan genjutsu,do the maths.



Nagato uses every ninjutsu,so he can spam ama and uses susanoo with hiraishin ...
Too powerful:ho


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## αce (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Placing genjutsu on fodder(we don't know how he did it,maybe he caught them in his crappy labs and mind-fucked them for all we know) doesn't mean he isn't weak to genjutsu.And being a genjutsu specialist doesn't grant you immunity(Kurenai,Oro anyone??)



He isn't losing to finger genjutsu, or non MS genjutsu. That's all I'm saying.


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Its not stated but given the bodies he summoned first and the order in which they were summoned it can be assumed that that is what he was planning 


senra tensei has been only shown to repell single blow attacks not consistant attacks like amaterasu and it hasnt been shown that Shinra Tensei can be used for extended amounts of time 

the 1000 clones that were repelled were exactly that 1000 itachi wouldnt summon that
many for the simple fact he doesn't need to and it would waste chakra 

itachi has proved he does not need external help to flank someone 

wether or not he's underestimated or not it's not impossible for pain to get caught in a genjutsu just as orochimaru did 


i only pointed out that itachi would notice the interval and use it to his advantage i never said the other bodies wouldn't defend

itachi wouldnt over use his bushins im simply pointing out his options 

i never said he can do what jiraiya did but you cant put it beyond his abilities


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## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> He isn't losing to finger genjutsu, or non MS genjutsu. That's all I'm saying.


Finger genjutsu,definitely not.but a sharingan genjutsu would be enough to slow down some pain bodies(maybe a binding genjutsu)


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^HE CAN'T USE A GENJUTSU ON MULTIPLE BODIES


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

pain has not shown anything to prove he is immune to genjustsu


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^Nagato was able to control some bodies while the others were binded.


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Do people really think Pain is weak to genjutsu?
> 
> I can tell you why this is retarded.


people don't think this really. just a lame excuse made up by the itachi wank club.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

saying that pain can see through genjustsu because the byakugon can
is stupid 
and pointless 
show me proof that he has all the abilities of that doujutsu


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^Stop trolling.
Sharingan is a diluted Rinnegan,thus all Sharingan abilities can be used by a rinnegan wielder.
Plus,Nagato was able to control some bodies while the others were binded.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

though jiraiya did catch him with high level genjutsu doesn' mean everyone can but it does mean that a high enough level genjutsu can and since itachi is a genjutsu specialist i think its safe to assume that he has powerful genjutsu


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 30, 2009)

Negato, the Sharingan is a _mutated_ Rinnegan. Your argument is incorrect.


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain has not shown anything to prove he is immune to genjustsu


and itachi has not shown a counter to chibaku tensei

we can play this game too


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> though jiraiya did catch him with high level genjutsu doesn' mean everyone can but it does mean that a high enough level genjutsu can and since itachi is a genjutsu specialist i think its safe to assume that he has powerful genjutsu



Did u read my last post???


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

where does it say that 
the Rinnegan is a completely different doujutsu 
all it says on it is that its the strongest of the three no where does it say that 
it can cast all the sharingan techs


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^NAGATO COULD CONTROL THE REMAINING BODIES EVEN IF THE OTHERS WERE CAUGHT IN ARGUABLY THE MOST POWERFUL GENJUTSU,YOUR POINT???


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^NAGATO COULD CONTROL THE REMAINING BODIES EVEN IF THE OTHERS WERE CAUGHT IN ARGUABLY THE MOST POWERFUL GENJUTSU,YOUR POINT???



It wasn't shown that the others were still able to move since 
they were only shown after the genjutsu was released


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> and itachi has not shown a counter to chibaku tensei
> 
> we can play this game too



chibaku tensei is his last resort and he has to be close to the original pain
im sure itachi would notice him runing away and close in on him


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain has not shown anything to prove he is immune to genjustsu



Yet the manga shows he has two of the main counters.



madarauchiha456 said:


> though jiraiya did catch him with high level genjutsu doesn' mean everyone can but it does mean that a high enough level genjutsu can and since itachi is a genjutsu specialist i think its safe to assume that he has powerful genjutsu



Other than Tsukuyomi he has no Genjutsu like Jiraiya's. 

Moreover he doesn't have Genjutsu that can surely catch them all. He'll have to hope they all look into his eyes; but with Jiraiya they just have to hear him.


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain would most likely not use it if his other bodies are currently out
> he was shown to only use it while the others were out of action and a safe distance away


doesn't matter. summon spam would give itachi enough trouble, and would force him into using MS. asuras missles and laser canon alone can force itachi into using susanoo. nagato can outlast susanoo or simply absorb it with hungry ghost realm. using all six of the paths power at the same time is overkill.

and if his other bodies go poof, which is unlikely, chibaku tensei ends it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> It wasn't shown that the others were still able to move since
> they were only shown after the genjutsu was released



Itachi doesn't have Genjutsu which paralyses the mind and nerves of the victim.

Tsukuyomi can be countered via the partner method according to Bee.

If its just Itachi's normal Genjutsu then there's no reason why Pain shouldn't be able to move.


But how is he going to get about using Genjutsu on bodies with a very likely mass summon spam at the start of the battle?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> chibaku tensei is his last resort and he has to be close to the original pain
> im sure itachi would notice him runing away and close in on him



If he decides to use Chibaki Tensei with the bodies out, then alas Itachi is screwed.

Though, more likely if Pain decides to use a Banhou Ten'in+combo then the fight will simply be over.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> It wasn't shown that the others were still able to move since
> they were only shown after the genjutsu was released



No,unless they have supersonic speed,Nagato controlled them and sent them fight and revive the other bodies.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Yet the manga shows he has two of the main counters.
> 
> 
> 
> .



but he hasn't shown immunity


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi doesn't have Genjutsu which paralyses the mind and nerves of the victim.
> 
> Tsukuyomi can be countered via the partner method according to Bee.
> 
> ...



Kakashi said that Tsukiyomi was unavoidable.And you're using the example of Kirabi where the genjutsu sasuke used on him is probably not Tsukiyomi.

The spam of summons can easily be dealt with thx to itachi's speed ,reflexes and swiftness.


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> but he hasn't shown immunity


he doesn't have to be immune, because he has shown he has the means to break it. and itachi's strongest genjutsu, tsukuyomi, is useless on a mindless corpes. good luck mind raping something thats dead.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> but he hasn't shown immunity



So? Are you trying to suggest immunity to Genjutsu is _the only way_ to overcome Itachi's Genjutsu?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Kakashi said that Tsukiyomi was unavoidable.And you're using the example of Kirabi where the genjutsu sasuke used on him is probably not Tsukiyomi.



Its unavoidable in with eye contact. But as Bee showed, you can get out of it.
Moreover there is towering evidence suggesting that it was Tsukuyomi; such as the appearance for starters.



> The spam of summons can easily be dealt by itachi's speed ,reflexes and swiftness.



How will that stop a spam. He'll be dodging one after another wasting energy dodging them.


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi doesn't have Genjutsu which paralyses the mind and nerves of the victim.
> 
> Tsukuyomi can be countered via the partner method according to Bee.
> 
> ...



Pain doesn't have a biju residing inside him 

what classifies any genjutsu as normal simply because it not a ms tech 
doesn't make it average


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi said:


> Kakashi said that Tsukiyomi was unavoidable.And you're using the example of Kirabi where the genjutsu sasuke used on him is probably not Tsukiyomi.
> 
> The spam of summons can easily be dealt with thx to itachi's speed ,reflexes and swiftness.



Amaterasu was sid to be unavoidable.Is it really the case


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Pain doesn't have a biju residing inside him



Why did Bee describe a normal method instead of saying that its unique only to Jinchuriki?



> what classifies any genjutsu as normal simply because it not a ms tech
> doesn't make it average



Unless he has Genjutsu which paralyse the nerves and mind he's not going to do what you're implying. Mainly has he's not shown any Genjutsu like that in the manga; the closest he's shown to that is Tsukuyomi. But I addressed that above.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So? Are you trying to suggest immunity to Genjutsu is _the only way_ to overcome Itachi's Genjutsu?



no im pertaining to the fact that pain isn't immune to any high level genjutsu
or genjutsu period


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

itachi has been shown to know paralysis genjutsu as proven the flash back with orochimaru


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> no im pertaining to the fact that pain isn't immune any high level genjutsu
> or gejutsu period



Alright, then. But no one suggested he was IIRC.



madarauchiha456 said:


> itachi has been shown to know paralysis genjutsu as proven the flash back with orochimaru



Orochimaru could still make an undo seal; he was about to before Itachi chopped his arm off.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> doesn't matter. summon spam would give itachi enough trouble, and would force him into using MS. asuras missles and laser canon alone can force itachi into using susanoo. nagato can outlast susanoo or simply absorb it with hungry ghost realm. using all six of the paths power at the same time is overkill.
> 
> and if his other bodies go poof, which is unlikely, chibaku tensei ends it.



im sure if hungry ghost tries to absorb susanoo itachi would react 
and outlasting it really isn't possible itachi would catch him due to its range


----------



## Stickman_sam (Dec 30, 2009)

Prime Itachi = not blind, no sickness, no HOLDING BACK BABYY


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

godtachi, i know you don't seriously think itachi>nagato 


godtachi said:


> Kakashi said that Tsukiyomi was unavoidable.And you're using the example of Kirabi where the genjutsu sasuke used on him is probably not Tsukiyomi.


good luck mind raping a mindless corpes that has never shown the slightest signs of emotion. itachi will waste tsukuyomi for nothing.


> The spam of summons can easily be dealt with thx to itachi's speed reflexes and swiftness.


and exactly how does he kill them? he will need nothing less than MS. that means MS spam to take out, about seven summons. in the manga itachi was overwhelmed by using MS 5 times against sasuke. and i haven't even started to talk about other factors, like the other realms powers.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> im sure if hungry ghost tries to absorb susanoo itachi would react
> and outlasting it really isn't possible itachi would catch him due to its range



Because the others would stand still


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Alright, then. But no one suggested he was IIRC.
> 
> 
> 
> Orochimaru could still make an undo seal; he was about to before Itachi chopped his arm off.



But orochimaru someone who is talented and gifted in genjutsu 
was struggling with it now pain hasn't shown orochimaru's knowledge of genjutsu


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> im sure if hungry ghost tries to absorb susanoo itachi would react
> and outlasting it really isn't possible itachi would catch him due to its range


he reacts by doing what exactly? once he's got itachi in his grip there is no getting out. even sage naruto couldn't power out of his grip.

and lol at nagato not being able to outlast susanoo. itachi dies after about one minute of having it out.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> godtachi, i know you don't seriously think itachi>nagato
> 
> good luck mind raping a mindless corpes that has never shown the slightest signs of emotion. itachi will waste tsukuyomi for nothing.
> 
> and exactly how does he kill them? he will need nothing less than MS. that means MS spam to take out, about seven summons. in the manga itachi was overwhelmed by using MS 5 times against sasuke. and i haven't even started to talk about other factors, like the other realms powers.



itachi doesn't need to rely on ms to take out summons 
we are talking about a healthy itachi not an itachi who 
was on the verge of dying before the match


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

^^I guess it won't change your opinion,but:
Oro doesn't have the most powerful doujutsu.
      Doesn't have the ability to use every ninjutsu.
      Doesn't have multiple bodies that can break genjutsu.
      Isn't Nagato's level at all.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> But orochimaru someone who is talented and gifted in genjutsu
> was struggling with it now pain hasn't shown orochimaru's knowledge of genjutsu



'Kai' is a Ninjutsu; part the mainstream Ninjutsu; Nagato mastered that and Pain can use the basic jutsu as shown via substitution and Shunshin.

Though, you ignore Orochimaru didn't struggle; he was about to get out of it.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> itachi doesn't need to rely on ms to take out summons
> we are talking about a *healthy itachi* not an itachi who
> was on the verge of dying before the match



Read OP.No healthy Itachi,since he doesn't even exist in the manga.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> he reacts by doing what exactly? once he's got itachi in his grip there is no getting out. even sage naruto couldn't power out of his grip.
> 
> and lol at nagato not being able to outlast susanoo. itachi dies after about one minute of having it out.



why exactly does he die he only died in the manga because of his sickness and he was still able to use it for a long enough time to defeat pain 

and to answer how he reacts he simply attacks by using susanoo 
and i doubt he would grab itachi while susanoo is out


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

It was shown that he was struggling or else he would have escaped the genjutsu with ease


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Read OP.No healthy Itachi,since he doesn't even exist in the manga.



Fine reguardless he doesn't have to rely on it to defeat a summon
ninjutsu was shown to work on them


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^I guess it won't change your opinion,but:
> Oro doesn't have the most powerful doujutsu.
> Doesn't have the ability to use every ninjutsu.
> Doesn't have multiple bodies that can break genjutsu.
> Isn't Nagato's level at all.



and why exactly can they break genjutsu automatically


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

though orochimaru doesn't have a doujutsu and also can't use every 
ninjutsu still doesn't put aside the fact that he was extremely talented at genjutsu 
doujutsu doesn't automatically cancel genjutsu


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 'Kai' is a Ninjutsu; part the mainstream Ninjutsu; Nagato mastered that and Pain can use the basic jutsu as shown via substitution and Shunshin.
> 
> Though, you ignore Orochimaru didn't struggle; he was about to get out of it.



im not saying it can't be cancelled 
but your saying theirs no way he can catch him 
which is stupid since itachi caught orochimaru 
and im sure orchimaru knows how to release genjutsu 

i know im referencing orochimaru alot


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> itachi doesn't need to rely on ms to take out summons


explain what other methods he will use. i'm all ears.


> we are talking about a healthy itachi not an itachi who
> was on the verge of dying before the match


healthy itachi is a none existent character with zero feats.


madarauchiha456 said:


> why exactly does he die he only died in the manga because of his sickness


because in the manga when he pulled it out he died like a minute later. we don't know how long he can hold it while healthy, because healthy itachi is non-existent.


> sasuke has used it without dying plenty of times


sasuke has a lot more stamina than itachi has.


> and to answer how he reacts he simply attacks by using susanoo
> and i doubt he would grab itachi while susanoo is out


hungry ghost can absorb susanoo. and grabbing him is what he wants to do while susanoo is out.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> im not saying it can't be cancelled
> but your saying theirs no way he can catch him
> which is stupid since itachi caught orochimaru
> and im sure orchimaru knows how to release genjutsu
> ...



When did I say he can't catch them? I'm saying they have the counters. Simple.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> explain what other methods he will use. i'm all ears.
> 
> healthy itachi is a none existent character with zero feats.
> 
> ...



As i said before fine no healthy itachi in the argument 
sasuke doesn't have more stamina since itachi outlasted him they 
are even in stamina 

i doubt he would grab itachi while susanoo is out in fact i doubt he could get 
close enough 

itachi can either use a katon or a Bunshin Bakuha on a summon


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## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

@ madarauchiha456 use multi-quote, you're making like 4 posts back to back.


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> When did I say he can't catch them? I'm saying they have the counters. Simple.



countering genjutsu depends on the genjutsu being cast


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> @ madarauchiha456 use multi-quote, you're making like 4 posts back to back.



this is the fastest way for me to respond


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

And im not sure how to use that


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## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> As i said before fine no healthy itachi in the argument


fine.


> sasuke doesn't have more stamina


databook and feats disagree.


> since itachi outlasted him they
> are even in stamina


has it occurred to you that maybe, itachi used less chakra costly jutsu than sasuke?


> i doubt he would grab itachi while susanoo is out in fact i doubt he could get
> close enough


why wouldn't he grab it? it's made of chakra. hungry ghost loves chakra. if it sees susanoo, it's grabbing it.


> itachi can either use a katon or a Bunshin Bakuha on a summon


neither move have feats that it can kill those summons, especially the cerebus summon which just multiplies anytime it's hit.


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 30, 2009)

Without PIS, Pain is basically unbeatable. Six bodies acting all at the same time, able to see what eachother is seeing to cover their backs, absorbs any attacks, steals souls, controls gravity, summons giant monsters, has ridiculous speed and strength, controls life and death, and can fly.

Tsukiyomi - doesn't work for very obvious reasons. Not only is there six of them, but they are constantly being injected with more chakra.

Amaterasru - nice parlor trick for lighting candles, nothing else to say about it. Absorbed/Deflected.

Susano-o - cool for one-on-one battle, but he dies after he seals a couple people then gets blasted away by Shinra Tensei or he gets overwhelmed by summons and runs out of chakra and dies.

Ace and Munboy already killed this thread , Itachi is strong and all but Pain is the superior ninja  , credit to the dude with the Juggernaut avi for this post.


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## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

jiraiya has used a katon to destroy one of his summons 
im pretty sure itachi who has a affinity for it can do the same 

Its no so much that he wont grab it's that he wont dare try to absorb a ms tech 
and that he would get sealed before he would even get close 

that's not possible itachi used ms tech more then once and not to mention he used all 
of them i doubt sasuke has anything that drains that much chakra


----------



## David (Dec 30, 2009)

Wait, did he just say Bunshin Daibakuha can take out boss summons?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> Without PIS, Pain is basically unbeatable. Six bodies acting all at the same time, able to see what eachother is seeing to cover their backs, absorbs any attacks, steals souls, controls gravity, summons giant monsters, has ridiculous speed and strength, controls life and death, and can fly.
> 
> Tsukiyomi - doesn't work for very obvious reasons. Not only is there six of them, but they are constantly being injected with more chakra.
> 
> ...



As ive said before Amaterasu is a instant attack i doubt he could react in time and its a consistant jutsu it he cant deflect it 
and why wouldn't Tsukiyomi work 
you cant repell susanoo since itachi has yata's mirror to counter it 
summons cant overwhelm susanoo


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Wait, did he just say Bunshin Daibakuha can take out boss summons?



It can disable them


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> countering genjutsu depends on the genjutsu being cast



We're not told that. We're told Genjutsu is countered the same.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Amaterasu should completely destroy pains dog summon


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Amaterasu should completely destroy pains dog summon



What if enough of the dogs split from the flames?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We're not told that. We're told Genjutsu is countered the same.



An exzample is Tsukiyomi though it is a doujutsu genjutsu 
it has certain requirements for releasing it 
no where does it say that all genjutsu is countered the same


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What if enough of the dogs split from the flames?



they would be destroyed reguardless since Amaterasu can change it course 
and most likely they would die instantly


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

genjutsu is not easily countered naruto who clearly has the advantage in 
chakra wasn't able to release the genjutsu 
but im not saying pain is in any way comparable to naruto 
im only saying that chakra and knowledge isn't only needed 
its skill as well


----------



## Turrin (Dec 30, 2009)

This has been done many times Itachi w/o information does not have any better of a chance against Pain then Jiraiya. The only character we have seen fight so far in the seris that could potential beat Pain w/o information would be Killer Bee in Version 2. Considering the Threat KN6 posed to Pain


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

As for Tsukiyomi pain does not have a biju residing in him to counter it so the partner method would't work for him 
Tsukiyomi affects all 5 senses so i dont see why it wouldnt work and pain wouldnt 
be able to react to it since time is controlled by itachi


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Turrin said:


> This has been done many times Itachi w/o information does not have any better of a chance against Pain then Jiraiya. The only character we have seen fight so far in the seris that could potential beat Pain w/o information would be Killer Bee in Version 2. Considering the Threat KN6 posed to Pain



Jiraiya without infromation was still able to defeat 3 bodies 
given that itachi is more intelligent than jiraiya im sure he would pick up on pains abilities faster

but intellignets alone wont win 
pain doesn't know about itachi's power either 
he might know the basics but thats it 
killer be has the same chance as everyone one else 
the fact that he has a biju means nothing


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> jiraiya has used a katon to destroy one of his summons
> im pretty sureitachi use has a affinity for it can do the same


how can he kill boss summons with that little flame that can barely burn trees? 


> Its no so much that he wont grab it's that he wont dare try to absorb a ms tech


why?


> and that he would get sealed before he would even get close


hows about he dodges the sword and goes straight behind susanoo where he can absorb comfortably.


> that's not possible itachi used ms tech more then once and not to mention he used all
> of them


who denied this?


> i doubt sasuke has anything that drains that much chakra


fact is the databook said sasuke has more stamina. it's canon. 


madarauchiha456 said:


> As ive said before Amaterasu is a instant attack


it's not instant. it was dodged.


> i doubt he could react in time and its a consistant jutsu it he cant deflect it


hungry ghost can absorb it, and hell realm can just bring any realm hit by it back to life.


> and why wouldn't Tsukiyomi work


you can't mind torture a dead corpes that isn't even effected by emotions.


> you cant repell susanoo since itachi has yata's mirror to counter it
> summons cant overwhelm susanoo


chibaku tensei does susanoo in. shinra tensei can push susanoo, as chojiro pushed it against sasuke. the mirror can't protect against gravity. hungry ghost can absorb it. nagatyo has plenty of counters to susanoo.


madarauchiha456 said:


> It can disable them


no proof. the best feat it has is making a big splash in the water 


madarauchiha456 said:


> Amaterasu should completely destroy pains dog summon


not if it splits.


madarauchiha456 said:


> they would be destroyed reguardless since Amaterasu can change it course
> and most likely they would die instantly


they can't die. they simply multiply. they were never defeated in the manga.


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

Turrin said:


> This has been done many times Itachi w/o information does not have any better of a chance against Pain then Jiraiya. The only character we have seen fight so far in the seris that could potential beat Pain w/o information would be Killer Bee in Version 2. Considering the Threat KN6 posed to Pain


hungry ghost realm is killer bees worse nightmare.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> An exzample is Tsukiyomi though it is a doujutsu genjutsu
> it has certain requirements for releasing it
> no where does it say that all genjutsu is countered the same



As far as we know, its only Genjutsu; same means of getting out of each one.



madarauchiha456 said:


> they would be destroyed reguardless since Amaterasu can change it course
> and most likely they would die instantly



Amaterasu can change its course but the dogs can keep splitting. How can they die instantly? Did Madara, Sasuke, Bee or even Ei die instantly?



madarauchiha456 said:


> As for Tsukiyomi pain does not have a biju residing in him to counter it so the partner method would't work for him



Bee described a normal method, never said it was unique to Jinchuriki.



> Tsukiyomi affects all 5 senses so i dont see why it wouldnt work and pain wouldnt



Its a Doujutsu; affects one sense.



> be able to react to it since time is controlled by itachi



They might not react, but as Bee showed, a partner [another Pain] could simply snap the fallen Pain out.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> how can he kill boss summons with that little flame that can barely burn tries?
> 
> why?
> 
> ...


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As far as we know, its only Genjutsu; same means of getting out of each one.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Killer Bee had his biju attack sasuke and it probably wasn't Tsukiyomi 
and if it was then sasuke wasn't using the time manipulation effect 

genjutsu effect all 5 
Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu 

Madara isn't a summon neither is killer bee or sasuke and madara has his own reasons for survivng 

all it takes is a second to feel the full effect of Tsukiyomi


----------



## David (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi's katons are all A rank or higher


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Killer Bee had his biju attack sasuke and it probably wasn't Tsukiyomi
> and if it was then sasuke wasn't using the time manipulation effect



We all know it was Tsukuyomi; Bee described a normal method you can't forget that.



> genjutsu effect all 5
> Tsukiyomi is a genjutsu



You can't hear Tsukuyomi, therefore doesn't affect the victim's sense of hearing.
You can't smell Tsukuyomi, therefore doesn't affect the victim's sense of smell.
You can't touch Tsukuyomi, therefore doesn't affect the victim's sense of touch.
You can't taste Tsukuyomi, therefore doesn't affect the victim's sense of taste.

But you can see Tsukuyomi, therefore it only affects the victim's sight senses.



> Madara isn't a summon neither is killer bee or sasuke and madara has his own reasons for survivng



But they didn't die instantly; like you said should happen when Amaterasu hits.



> all it takes is a second to feel the full effect of Tsukiyomi



Yet Bee got out with a normal method?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Fine i might have exaggerated


----------



## ? (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi's katons are all A rank or higher and summons can be injured


rank is irrelevant, as all his katons with the exception of amaterasu have poor feats.he has to use MS jutsu to destroy the summons.


> ghost releam was only shown absorbing jutsu that he was able to react to
> if it appears on him i doubt he would be able to absorb it


if he dies. naraka revives him. 


> If summons can't die then how was jiraiya able to destroy it


 maybe because jiraiya is not itachi? and i never said itachi can't destroy them, i said he would need MS.


> If it splits itachi would follow it and destroy all on contact


and they just split more 


> please tell me where would he push it since itachi controls its movements


doesn't matter. deva controls gravity and can push and pull susanoo when he feels like it.


> shinra tensei is a jutsu and yatas mirror defends against all jutsu
> their are no counters for susanoo


no it can't. since shinra tensei is not a jutsu thats actually attacking susanoo, but more like controlling gravity to push or pull it, how can the mirror block it?


> with it's attack range and speed he wouldnt be able to
> pain wouldnt be dumb enough to even try and grab itachi


you still have no proof that pein wouldn't try to absorb it.


> but he can control the body itself then do whatever he wants with it
> while in Tsukiyomi


tsukuyomi doesn't last long enough for itachi to blitz and do something like that. and like i said tsukuyomi can't hurt a mindless corpse. it tortures the mind and feed on the opponents nightmares and fears. a dead corpes doesn't have any of that.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We all know it was Tsukuyomi; Bee described a normal method you can't forget that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




genjutsu itself effect all 5 senses not the way you cast it 

I said then summons would die instantly 
ninja's would be burned to ashes given enough time


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> genjutsu itself effect all 5 senses not the way you cast it



No, it controls the chakra flow to the brain. Its effects vary depending on the Genjutsu being case.



> I said then summons would die instantly
> ninja's would be burned to ashes given enough time



How would summons die instantly if hasn't killed instantly; granted it can kill but upon touching it for the first few secs? That's never happened in the manga.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Inu said:


> rank is irrelevant, as all his katons with the exception of amaterasu have poor feats.he has to use MS jutsu to destroy the summons.
> 
> if he dies. naraka revives him.
> 
> ...



Itachi is an uchiha katons are what uchiha specialize in 
considering itachi is not a normal uchiha and that he was able 
to impress his father at a young age with his katon 
im sure itachis's katons could kill a summon 
jiraiya killed one of pains summons with a katon 
and im not comparing them just the jutsu 

you have no proof he would go out of his way to grab itachi and 
actually try to absorb  susanoo not knowing anything about it 
and itachi would catch him before he even got the chance 

He cannot push susanoo he can push itachi and it wouldn't harm itachi nor susanoo it would just create an opening for itachi 

yata's mirror doesn't only block jutsu 

the only summon that would require him to use MS is the dog summon 
and it would die instantly


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No, it controls the chakra flow to the brain. Its effects vary depending on the Genjutsu being case.
> 
> 
> 
> How would summons die instantly if hasn't killed instantly; granted it can kill but upon touching it for the first few secs? That's never happened in the manga.



If jiraiya's lion mane jutsu and katon was able to destroy a summon instantly
im sure it could as well 

Its never been used on a summon in the manga


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

tsukuyomi last as long as the user wishes 
every genjutsu effects all 5 senses reguardless of what 
genjutsu it is


----------



## Fratley (Dec 30, 2009)

As awesome as Itachi is, I think Pain wins this round.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

I will resume this conversation tomorrow


----------



## David (Dec 30, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Fine i might have exaggerated



It's exaggerations like this that are part of the reason arguing with a fandom is hopeless.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> It's exaggerations like this that are part of the reason arguing with a fandom is hopeless.



exaggerating about the possiblity of itachi having A Rank katon jutsu 
or higher isn't really something an obssesed fan would say and doesn't really make arguing pointless


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Its people who suggest Itachi has no probability of winning 
or people who pertain to the fantasy of pain acutally easily winning if he could 
which i doubt


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 30, 2009)

Im gonna retire for today


----------



## SSJ2 Gohan (Dec 30, 2009)

Itachi=
Period.


----------



## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 30, 2009)

I think Pain would win, although it probably wouldn't be easy.  His instant-kill ability (from Human Realm), Shinra Tensei, ability to resurrect killed bodies with Hell Realm, and ability to spam summons make him a formidable opponent.  And as others have pointed out, just the fact that he has multiple bodies is an advantage.  Like Chiyo said: if you're fighting a Sharingan user one-on-one, you'd better run like hell, but if you have multiple people on your side, you have a chance.

There are two things that make me a little less certain:
1. Pain's shared field of vision between his bodies could actually be a liability, because all six have to avoid eye contact with Itachi.  A wider field of vision is actually a *dis*advantage against an MS user.  However, the Rinnegan might make the user immune to sight-based genjutsu--AFAIK, we don't have any evidence one way or the other.
2. The Sword of Totsuka, much like Pain's own Human Realm ability, is a one-hit kill.  The question is whether hitting one body will seal Pain's entire soul, or just the bit of it that was in that one body.  

Despite those uncertainties, I think Pain would probably win.  But because of them, I can only say "probably".


----------



## Turrin (Dec 30, 2009)

> hungry ghost realm is killer bees worse nightmare


I can't imagine Hungry Ghost ever being able to get Version 2 in a full nelson. Also since HG does suffer negative effects from the quality of the chakra considering the damaging nature of Demon's chakra in Version 2 it would probably destroy Hungry Ghost's body. Just like how Sage Mode turn Hungry Ghost to stone.


----------



## vane (Dec 30, 2009)

Pain takes this with moderate ease.

Really what does Itachi have to really work here?

Itachi will will deplete his chakra at an extreme rate trying to take on Pain. Itachi isnt a chakra monster. Deva path with Mecha Pain would hard hitters in this fight along with Animal realm summoning beasts to make Itachi waste more chakra trying to take them out.

Also as I seen earlier in this thread we dont even know if eye genjutsu would be to effective as if 1 see's the illusion the other 5 see for the one that is effected and will know what is illusions and what is not.

The only reason Jiraiya's genjutsu was so effective is because its a sound based genjutsu that effects all opponents in the area where as Itachi's is singular and can only put one opponent at a time in genjutsu.

I think the mecha Pain would be one of the worst as he is pretty much taijutsu with missles. Susanoo would be Itachi's only defense against mech Pains missle attacks and physical attacking ability.



> 2. The Sword of Totsuka, much like Pain's own Human Realm ability, is a one-hit kill. The question is whether hitting one body will seal Pain's entire soul, or just the bit of it that was in that one body.


Irrelevant because each body is dead. There wouldnt be any part of Nagato's soul sealed away at all. Each body is chakra ran like a remote control car.


----------



## Axekick (Dec 30, 2009)

Bartallen2 said:


> Totsuka and Yata make all the difference, not to mention that Itachi's Taijutsu is arguably some of the greatest seen within Part II.



I know I'm a bit late to the party (wow this thread took off quick ), but I'm curious as to why you say this.


----------



## Vegeta's Urine (Dec 30, 2009)

Pain rapes Itachi.


----------



## tavrean (Dec 31, 2009)

i didnt feel like reading all the pages to see if this was stated but in case it hasnt
itachi performing a doujutsu on pein will NOT affect all bodies. yes they CAN share the same vision but there seems to be an activation of that ability. otherwise the other bodies wouldnt know wut the hell they were doing in relation to themselves when they are in other parts of the the town/city/world
i believed we saw an emphasis on this when pein almost got hit by kakshi during the invasion and they had a frame with just him staring and then the robot body came and took the hit for him.


----------



## tavrean (Dec 31, 2009)

also itachi prolly wouldnt/shouldnt go for tsukiyomi cuz it would require him to stand still for at least a sec. with 6 opponents on ur ass, id think you want to keep moving at all times.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

tavrean said:


> also itachi prolly wouldnt/shouldnt go for tsukiyomi cuz it would require him to stand still for at least a sec. with 6 opponents on ur ass, id think you want to keep moving at all times.



You don't have to stand completely still, eye contact just has to be made in some way.


----------



## tavrean (Dec 31, 2009)

i was just going off of how he's always been shown using it. along with his Approx. 6 sec. time charge to activate it. actually if you look at the series you'll notice that anytime he uses a MS jutsu he has to close his eye(s) for a period of time so i think that hould be a hinderance when fighting pein that will lead to his demise


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

tavrean said:


> also itachi prolly wouldnt/shouldnt go for tsukiyomi cuz it would require him to stand still for at least a sec. with 6 opponents on ur ass, id think you want to keep moving at all times.



exactly like in sasuke vs itachi,he had to stand still for ages to use tsukiyomi


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^Against Sasuke,he had to stay still for ages to use Ama


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Yeah,like he did for the second ama,right??(don't forget that itachi had to show sasuke that he was going to use a powerful ninjutsu,otherwise sasuke wouldn't have prepared any counter)


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^His jutsu(Ama)was already activated.For the other part of your post,Nice fanfic


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi is an uchiha katons are what uchiha specialize in
> considering itachi is not a normal uchiha and that he was able
> to impress his father at a young age with his katon
> im sure itachis's katons could kill a summon


not a boss summon


> jiraiya killed one of pains summons with a katon
> and im not comparing them just the jutsu


jiraiya was sage powered though.


> you have no proof he would go out of his way to grab itachi and
> actually try to absorb  susanoo not knowing anything about it


yes i do. when nagato sees a chakra based attack, he absorbs it. you're grasping for straws.


> and itachi would catch him before he even got the chance


no he wouldn't. the pein bodies are not immobile they can dodge the swords hits.


> He cannot push susanoo he can push itachi and it wouldn't harm itachi nor susanoo it would just create an opening for itachi


 how would it create an opening for itachi if he's being pushed?


> yata's mirror doesn't only block jutsu


he can go around the mirror and attack from behind.


> the only summon that would require him to use MS is the dog summon
> and it would die instantly


and yet you have no proof it would die instantly since it can just continue to multiply when hit. also he needs MS to take out the other summons as well, since his base techs aren't strong enough. i refuse to believe C-rank little katons will kill big boss summons.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi is an uchiha katons are what uchiha specialize in
> considering itachi is not a normal uchiha and that he was able
> to impress his father at a young age with his katon
> im sure itachis's katons could kill a summon
> ...


Nice fanfiction,but this is the wrong section


madarauchiha456 said:


> you have no proof he would go out of his way to grab itachi and
> actually try to absorb  susanoo not knowing anything about it
> and itachi would catch him before he even got the chance


He has Rinnegan,so he can see it's mere moving chakra,he would absorbit.Once again do u think the other bodies would stay still waiting for Itachi to attack??


madarauchiha456 said:


> He cannot push susanoo he can push itachi and it wouldn't harm itachi nor susanoo it would just create an opening for itachi


,nothing more to say.


madarauchiha456 said:


> yata's mirror doesn't only block jutsu


It does,it can only protect the covered area,the remaining sides are vulnerable.


madarauchiha456 said:


> the only summon that would require him to use MS is the dog summon
> and it would die instantly


The Chameleon,the rhino,the bird..How would Itachi kill them w/o using Ama??


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Oh fuck,Deva evaded attacks from Three boss summons,Itachi can do much better.Please don't come up with summons bullshit.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

If there are like four or five summons rushing into him,i don't think Itachi would fare any better.


----------



## tavrean (Dec 31, 2009)

godtachi said:


> exactly like in sasuke vs itachi,he had to stand still for ages to use tsukiyomi



Actually yes. when it was casted was during their lil shuriken battle, because if you notice itachi eys were fixed on saus, then his bunshin got disposed, withouth the obscurity of shuriken he used the crows, made contact and then u see the little emphasis of it right before he kicks him into the wall and when sasuke broke out of it thats where they were still standing and all that other shit ( kicked into wall, eye gouge, curse seal activation) never really happened


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

tavrean said:


> Actually yes. when it was casted was during their lil shuriken battle, because if you notice itachi eys were fixed on saus, then his bunshin got disposed, withouth the obscurity of shuriken he used the crows, made contact and then u see the little emphasis of it right before he kicks him into the wall and when sasuke broke out of it thats where they were still standing and all that other shit ( kicked into wall, eye gouge, curse seal activation) never really happened



I'm sorry for ya but i know all this,Itachi always has his eyes fixed on his enemy,so.....
Man,Tsukiyomi doesn't take forever to be catsed,it's only u who believes so.The Tsukiyomi was cast the moment itachi used the karasu bunshin,and with pre-skip kakashi it was casted the moment his MS was on(eventhough kishi didn't draw it).I'm really surprised you think this:When itachi has his MS on,he can use Tsukiyom just like any sharingan genjutsu,anytime and the only thing that is required is eye contact


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> not a boss summon
> 
> jiraiya was sage powered though.
> 
> ...



Why wont a B rank katon defeat a summon 

Jiraiya wasn't in hermit mode at the time of killing the 
bird summon 

Your assuming He would So if its safe to assume pain would 
risk a body to absorb a Ms tech hes never seen then its common 
sense itachi would direct susanoo to attack 
and as i said before susanoo has a wide and long range of attack 
to add to that its extremely fast 

the gavitational pull is't going to damage itachi while susanoo is out 
if pein uses it then the other bodies would defend causing one or two to get sealed 

But jiraiyas lion mane toad stomach and katon jutsu was enough to instantly destroy one 
while amaterasu is drastically stronger has no chance of instantly killing a summon exactly how is it impossible 

susanoo is a sheild itself the mirror just adds to its defensive power 

Itachi's ninjutsu,intelligents,kage bushins or katons should be enough for any summon he doesn't have to rely on the ms


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Nice fanfiction,but this is the wrong section
> 
> He has Rinnegan,so he can see it's mere moving chakra,he would absorbit.Once again do u think the other bodies would stay still waiting for Itachi to attack??
> 
> ...




How is it fan fiction by assuming he has powerful katons since he's an uchiha 
and since we are given evidence that uchiha have affinity for that element

either way its a hugh mass of chakra and takes up a vast amount of space 
given its size,speed and range pain would not take the risk and if he were to itachi would most likely guide susanoo to attack   

yata's mirror is to add on to its defensive power 
as we seen in the manga susanoo was more than able to defend sasuke 
while he wasn't aware of danzos presence behind him and sasuke clearly doesn't have yata's mirror to add on to this 
when itachi defended against kirin yatas mirror was not present the bones were only summoned
yata's mirror was summoned after kirin had finished and itachi had formed another layer around susanoo it's proven more than once in the manga that susanoo is a defensive tech even without yata's mirror 
it is not a required item for it to defend nor is it vulnerable from behind since the user is surrounded by bones entirely
assuming that it is is fan fiction

ive never said they wouldn't be maneuvering around
i said it's more likely itachi would land a hit on the absorbing pain with susanoo
than the absorbing pain absorbing susanoo 

where is your proof that B rank or higher katons wont destroy a summon 
since jiraiya while not in hermit mode used a katon,lion mane and frog stomach jutsu to defeat 3 summons


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi doesn't have to remain still while casting Tsukiyomi 
nor does he have to shut his eyes to ativate a ms tech 
the only requirement for Tsukiyomi to take effect is eye contact 
itachi remaining still and shutting his eyes before casting Tsukiyomi was only to indicate that it was Tsukiyomi 
If this is a requirement for it to activate then provide proof


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

vane said:


> Pain takes this with moderate ease.
> 
> Really what does Itachi have to really work here?
> 
> ...



While stamina is a factor in this match the amount of chakra the user has doesn't decide who comes out victorious skill should be accounted for and
itachi is known to only use what's necessary

Itachi wont carelessly waste chakra as you seem to think 

Itachi has paralysis genjutsu which seemed to work well against pain and it's proven that his clones can cast genjutsu as well 

though nagato's soul wont directly be sealed the host bodies he is using would be by susanoo 

kunai tagged with explosives should be able to deflect pains missles 
but in a worst case scenario itachi might be forced to use susanoo 
which i doubt he would 

katons should be able to destroy any summon 
with the exception of the dog summon amaterasu will be needed


----------



## tavrean (Dec 31, 2009)

ok, ill give that he should be able to use while moving and there is no proof other than the fact that in the anime every time he goes from reg sharingan to ms or before casting tsuki/amare he closes his eyes and its always roughly the same amount of time. i guess the animators just like how he looks with his eyes closed or somthing seeing that he does it all the time with the exception for one, they didnt show his eyes closing prior to the tsuki in that final saus fight but also our attention was diverted when he made that clone so the real him could have theoretically been closing his eyes.  so even though he probably can do it while mobile he has still not shown that and if that was the case closing his eyes at any time during a battle with pein could be hazardous to his health.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

tavrean said:


> ok, ill give that he should be able to use while moving and there is no proof other than the fact that in the anime every time he goes from reg sharingan to ms or before casting tsuki/amare he closes his eyes and its always roughly the same amount of time. i guess the animators just like how he looks with his eyes closed or somthing seeing that he does it all the time with the exception for one, they didnt show his eyes closing prior to the tsuki in that final saus fight but also our attention was diverted when he made that clone so the real him could have theoretically been closing his eyes.  so even though he probably can do it while mobile he has still not shown that and if that was the case closing his eyes at any time during a battle with pein could be hazardous to his health.



Itachi was only shown to close his eyes once during the entire anime 
he was more than capable of casting tsukiyomi on young sauske on more than one occasion without shutting his eyes


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

As i stated before the only requirement for tsukiyomi to take effect
is eye contact between the caster and the opponent


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> How is it fan fiction by assuming he has powerful katons since he's an uchiha
> and since we are given evidence that uchiha have affinity for that element
> 
> either way its a hugh mass of chakra and takes up a vast amount of space
> ...



'Powerful' and 'Katon' in the same sentence is a joke.
Where did Jiraiya ever use a katon to defeat a summon??


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> 'Powerful' and 'Katon' in the same sentence is a joke.
> Where did Jiraiya ever use a katon to defeat a summon??



Jiraiya used a kage bushin and the clone used a katon 
on pains arial summon to defeat it 
since he didn't directly use the katon i say it still managed to 
defeat the summon reguardless


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Are you suggesting katon's are relatively weak
The strength of any ninjutsu is completely
dependent on the user


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Jiraiya used a kage bushin and the clone used a katon
> on pains arial summon to defeat it
> since he didn't directly use the katon i say it still managed to
> defeat the summon reguardless



A katon,against a summon??,we're definitely not reading the same manga.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Why wont a B rank katon defeat a summon


it's C-rank. and even so, the crusteacean summon can block the katons, or hungry ghost can block the katons.


> Jiraiya wasn't in hermit mode at the time of killing the
> bird summon


fine. but jiraiya has higher ranking katons than itachi, with the exception to amaterasu.


> Your assuming He would So if its safe to assume pain would
> risk a body to absorb a Ms tech hes never seen then its common


i have proof that he tries to absorb ninjutsu when he sees it in effect. it doesn't matter if it's MS jutsu, they are no exception.


> sense itachi would direct susanoo to attack
> and as i said before susanoo has a wide and long range of attack


doesn't matter, hungry ghost can still shunshin out of the way.


> to add to that its extremely fast


it still hasn't shown speed that pein can't react to. like i said he shunshins behind susanoo and absorbs it.


> the gavitational pull is't going to damage itachi while susanoo is out
> if pein uses it then the other bodies would defend causing one or two to get sealed


no. susanoo can only seal one body at a time, as far as we know. if one body is sealed the others will know to stay away from it, and let itachi die from having susanoo out to long.


> But jiraiyas lion mane toad stomach and katon jutsu was enough to instantly destroy one


show me one katon itachi has besides amaterasu that matches jiraiyas oil powered katons.


> while amaterasu is drastically stronger has no chance of instantly killing a summon exactly how is it impossible


it can't kill instantly. show me one manga panel where it has. and the cerebus summon is immortal. it will only multiply when hit.


> susanoo is a sheild itself the mirror just adds to its defensive power


without the shield susanoo can be broken. and besides it has been pushed before. you have zero evidence that shinra tensei can't push it.


> Itachi's ninjutsu,intelligents,kage bushins or katons should be enough for any summon he doesn't have to rely on the ms


prove it.


the fact that people still think itachi can defeat pein is beyond me. pein can easily get on his bird summon fly way in the sky where itachi can't touch him, and nuke the hell out of him.


----------



## G-Man (Dec 31, 2009)

Pain vs Itachi with no knowledge?

Unless Tsukiyomi affects all the bodies AND Nagato himself, Itachi is screwed.

He needs to take out Jigkudou with something that will completely destroy the body so that their's nothing left for Nagato to ressurect, and then he needs to take Chikushudou followed by Tendou, also with attacks that leave nothing to restore.

With all six bodies spamming attacks, I don't see Itachi pulling it off.  He would need Susanoo to survive everything Pain can throw at him.  I'm not going to get into the whole Katons vs Summons debate (though I personally think Itachi would need some really damn strong, high-ranked Katons to kill the larger summons), but fending off the summons, Shuradou's missile spam and laser, and Bansho Tenin/Shinra Tensei all at once is impossible without Susanoo, even for him!  And he'd have to avoid Gakidou absorbing all of his long-range jutsu.

Too much for him to try and ovecome.  His only chance is using Susanoo immediately and trying to nail all the bodies at once if they are grouped together (even if the Sword doesn't seal Nagato's soul it should still cut the bodies in half).

If they are not he'll just be outlasted.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Are you suggesting katon's are relatively weak
> The strength of any ninjutsu is completely
> dependent on the user


show me something impressive about itachi's katon.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> it's C-rank. and even so, the crusteacean summon can block the katons, or hungry ghost can block the katons.
> 
> fine. but jiraiya has higher ranking katons than itachi, with the exception to amaterasu.
> 
> ...



There was no oil involved it was a simple katon used by a bushin 

Show me where it says he has higher ranking katons than itachi 
and that itachi doesn't possess B rank katons which is more than enough to defeat a summon  

as for the dog summon jiraiya seemed to defeat them with the frog stomach simultaneously and so could ameratsu and again im not comparing them just the jutsu

susanoo has not shown any weakness with sauske since sasuke doesn't have yata's mirror it's proved itself capable of defending without yata's mirror

your avoiding that fact that it's a summon and that it can be instantly destroyed given the level of the tech 

it hasn't been proven that susanoo can only seal one at a time 
it was only shown to attack one person but that doesn't limit its sealing 
to 1 person per swing 

susanoo is a close,mid and long range attack reaching up to 10 m and greater 

If it can or cannot push and pull susanoo is beside the fact that it wouldn't matter he can still react to it and would likely attack the body pulling him in 
and yata's mirror i said to defend against any attack not just jutsu


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> A katon,against a summon??,we're definitely not reading the same manga.



obviously not


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> show me something impressive about itachi's katon.



Besides the fact that sasuke had to resort to cs2 to counter his katon


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> obviously not



I think u should stop trolling,you're making fanfiction in the battledome section.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

the fact that Itachi's ninjutsu,intelligents,kage bushins or katons being enough for any summon can be proven by simply looking at how jiraiya out smarted his bird summon with a bunshin 
now given itachi is more skilled in that department considering he uses bushins more skillfully i assume he can do the same and possibly better


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> show me something impressive about itachi's katon.







And compare this with:,the size is comprable(i would say itachi's is a little bigger,and don't forget it was only at 30%)

Those katon are far more powerful than Saskura's punch,who could easily one-shot a summon


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Besides the fact that sasuke had to resort to cs2 to counter his katon



With a a katon.
That's the point :Katon is a failure affinity,even the strongest one fails.


----------



## G-Man (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> the fact that Itachi's ninjutsu,intelligents,kage bushins or katons being enough for any summon can be proven by simply looking at how jiraiya out smarted his bird summon with a bunshin
> now given itachi is more skilled in that department considering he uses bushins more skillfully i assume he can do the same and possibly better



Wait.  Did he kill the bird wth a bunshin?

I remember that happening in the anime version of that fight, but I can't remember how he killed the bird in the manga.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> the fact that Itachi's ninjutsu,intelligents,kage bushins or katons being enough for any summon can be proven by simply looking at how jiraiya out smarted his bird summon with a bunshin
> now given itachi is more skilled in that department considering he uses bushins more skillfully i assume he can do the same and possibly better



Either u show a clear manga page where Jiraiya killed a summon using a katon or a KB,or u stop trolling.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> I think u should stop trolling,you're making fanfiction in the battledome section.



Where is the fan fiction please point them out for me 
to prove that i have contributed to that statement


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

G-Man said:


> Wait.  Did he kill the bird wth a bunshin?
> 
> I remember that happening in the anime version of that fight, but I can't remember how he killed the bird in the manga.



I see,he was using the anime.
Sorry,but anime is filler.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Where is the fan fiction please point them out for me
> to prove that i have contributed to that statement



Jiraiya using a Katon and a KB to kill a summon.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> With a a katon.
> That's the point :Katon is a failure affinity,even the strongest one fails.



No,to stop the second gokakyou that itachi used(with the wings)


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Either u show a clear manga page where Jiraiya killed a summon using a katon or a KB,or u stop trolling.



Naruto shippuden episode 131
 11 min and 30 seconds into to show


----------



## Girl I don't care (Dec 31, 2009)

there's no way that this havent been done before and there's no way that it isn't common consensus that pain would dominate.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Naruto shippuden episode 131
> 11 min and 30 seconds into to show



ANIME = FILLER


----------



## G-Man (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Naruto shippuden episode 131
> 11 min and 30 seconds into to show



Anime Filler isn't allowed unless specifically stated.

I knew it!  I didn't remember Jiraiya killing the bird summon at all in the manga (Pain desummoned it for some reason)!  That only happened in the anime version!


----------



## G-Man (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Thats beside the point
> that fact that kishimoto has shown that katons are able to destoy summons given the level of the katon is my point whether or not it was in the manga or shippuden holds no importance



No, Kishi didn't.  The anime writers showe dus that, but they dont know sh*t about the story beyond what they see in the manga.  Unless you really believe 12-year old, pre-skip Naruto can pwn Jounins left and right like he always does in filler!


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

@Madara:What??
Kishi is not the one who makes anime.
In the manga,a katon doesn't have the power to kill a summon,it's actually quite the opposite.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> @Madara:What??
> Kishi is not the one who makes anime.
> In the manga,a katon doesn't have the power to kill a summon,it's actually quite the opposite.



Alright 

Then please explain why a katon wont be able to either wound 
or destroy a summon


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

Wound at best(if not easily dodged:ho)
Summons have high durability,u know.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

The manga seems to leave a large amount of gaps 
since it doesn't explain what happend to either of pains summons


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Turrin said:


> I can't imagine Hungry Ghost ever being able to get Version 2 in a full nelson. Also since HG does suffer negative effects from the quality of the chakra considering the damaging nature of Demon's chakra in Version 2 it would probably destroy Hungry Ghost's body. Just like how Sage Mode turn Hungry Ghost to stone.



What side effects? If Biju chakra has another element within it such as nature energy then the Preta Realm will suffer no side effect.
Furthermore Samehada could absorb the shroud, and it had a limit to how much chakra it could absorb unlike the Preta Realm.



madarauchiha456 said:


> If jiraiya's lion mane jutsu and katon was able to destroy a summon instantly
> im sure it could as well



Jiraiya got a direct hit with his Katon; the lion's mane had to have a little effort put into it to do the job.

Pay attention to the Katon, it burnt the summon for a while before it died, it didn't die instantly; Amaterasu has never killed the moment it touched anything --- plus we're talking about a summon which can't die, it multiplies instead.



> Its never been used on a summon in the manga



Nothing says the effects will be different.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> There was no oil involved it was a simple katon used by a bushin


yeah, just reviewed the chapter with the bird summon. jiraiya never killed it or even used a katon on it for that matter.gamaken simply blocked it with his shield. 


> Show me where it says he has higher ranking katons than itachi
> and that itachi doesn't possess B rank katons which is more than enough to defeat a summon


he has, b rank katons. itachi's best katon outside  amaterasu is C-rank.


> as for the dog summon jiraiya seemed to defeat them with the frog stomach simultaneously and so could ameratsu and again im not comparing them just the jutsu


jiraiya never killed those summons. there is no reason to think amaterasu will when the summon only multiplies when hit.


> susanoo has not shown any weakness with sauske since sasuke doesn't have yata's mirror it's proved itself capable of defending without yata's mirror


why do you keep saying this? susanoo has been broken, and has been pushed. the mirror can be avoided by simply shunshining behind it.


> your avoiding that fact that it's a summon and that it can be instantly destroyed given the level of the tech


exactly. and itachi does have the power to kill the summons. just not without the use of MS.


> it hasn't been proven that susanoo can only seal one at a time
> it was only shown to attack one person but that doesn't limit its sealing
> to 1 person per swing


thats it's only feat. thats what i'm going by. one at a time until proven otherwise.


> susanoo is a close,mid and long range attack reaching up to 10 m and greater


so? it can't reach the sky, where pein can be.


> If it can or cannot push and pull susanoo is beside the fact that it wouldn't matter he can still react to it and would likely attack the body pulling him in
> and yata's mirror i said to defend against any attack not just jutsu


you can go around yatas mirror.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

summons are shown to be susceptible to sharingan genjutsu 
While a katon could injure a summon genjutsu can manipulate them 
either way a summon isn't going to give itachi much of a problem


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Turrin said:


> I can't imagine Hungry Ghost ever being able to get Version 2 in a full nelson. Also since HG does suffer negative effects from the quality of the chakra considering the damaging nature of Demon's chakra in Version 2 it would probably destroy Hungry Ghost's body. Just like how Sage Mode turn Hungry Ghost to stone.


1. deva uses bansho tennin
2. preta grabs killer bee, and remember not even sage mode naruto could break out
3. hungry ghost absorbs him dry.
4. nagato wins.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> summons are shown to be susceptible to sharingan genjutsu
> While a katon could injure a summon genjutsu can manipulate them
> either way a summon isn't going to give itachi much of a problem


assuming the mindless summons are trying to stare into itachi's girly eyes, and assuming itachi can catch them all at once. then you also have to also assume they pein can't break them out of genjutsu, and then you also have to assume that genjutsu would even kill them. which it can't.

sorry, but the summons will give itachi lots of trouble


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> yeah, just reviewed the chapter with the bird summon. jiraiya never killed it or even used a katon on it for that matter.gamaken simply blocked it with his shield.
> 
> he has, b rank katons. itachi's best katon outside  amaterasu is C-rank.
> 
> ...



When has susanoo been defeated or pushed 

Its not as simple as maneuvering around it itachi would have realized his 
ability by then and wouldn't let the absorbing pain get near him 
and this is of course assuming the absorbing body is around by the time itachi does use susanoo

If the dog summon splits itachi will follow and engulf them in flame if they 
try to cluster togetheir or split they will still be cover in flames 
their is too much missing info on that summon to say its invincible


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

paralysis genjutsu should work just fine agianst pain and also create openings in the process 
Itachi's eyes aren't his only method for casting genjutsu 
his fingers can be used as well


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What side effects? If Biju chakra has another element within it such as nature energy then the Preta Realm will suffer no side effect.
> Furthermore Samehada could absorb the shroud, and it had a limit to how much chakra it could absorb unlike the Preta Realm.
> 
> 
> ...



The katon was not in effect for more than 40 seconds
it might have not been instantly i chose my words wrong 
but it did manage to defeat it in less than 40 seconds 

jiraiya showed no effort in destroying the summon it was easily destroyed by his lion mane jutsu


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> The katon was not in effect for more than 40 seconds
> it might have not been instantly i chose my words wrong
> but it did manage to defeat it in less than 40 seconds



It didn't die instantly, however. Meaning the dog which won't die will still split.



> jiraiya showed no effort in destroying the summon it was easily destroyed by his lion mane jutsu



He had to tighten the grip with his hair, that required some effort. Why are we talking about this jutsu? Neither Itachi nor Pain has it in their arsenal.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> When has susanoo been defeated or pushed


raikage broke it with a punch, and choujuro pushed it with his hiramekerei.


> Its not as simple as maneuvering around it itachi would have realized his
> ability by then and wouldn't let the absorbing pain get near him


he doesn't know preta paths abilities, and you have no proof he would have learned his abilities by then, because nagato has the power to force itachi into using susanoo very early on.and he will be distracted by other realms, so it will be easier to maneuver around him.


> and this is of course assuming the absorbing body is around by the time itachi does use susanoo


this is no assumption. if he's killed before hand, there is a path that can revive him.


> If the dog summon splits itachi will follow and engulf them in flame if they
> try to cluster together or split they will still be cover in flames


the more they are damaged the more they split. and itachi can't use amaterasu forever.


> their is too much missing info on that summon to say its invincible


and yet it has survived everything thrown at it, even an ultimate rasengan.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

I wasn't aware that the anime version was excluded from the debate


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> I wasn't aware that the anime version was excluded from the debate


yeah anime is non-canon


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It didn't die instantly, however. Meaning the dog which won't die will still split.
> 
> 
> 
> He had to tighten the grip with his hair, that required some effort. Why are we talking about this jutsu? Neither Itachi nor Pain has it in their arsenal.



reguardless if the dog splits they will still be smothered in flames and eventually die


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> reguardless if the dog splits they will still be smothered in flames and eventually die



Each time they'll be hit they'll multiply. That's the thing with the dog; it doesn't die. In fact chances are one will split _without_ being smothered and multiply again.

Also Amaterasu can't kill something which the databook says can't die and which the manga shows can't die either.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> reguardless if the dog splits they will still be smothered in flames and eventually die


the summon can't die as stated by the databook. end of story.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> raikage broke it with a punch, and choujuro pushed it with his hiramekerei.
> 
> he doesn't know preta paths abilities, and you have no proof he would have learned his abilities by then, because nagato has the power to force itachi into using susanoo very early on.and he will be distracted by other realms, so it will be easier to maneuver around him.
> 
> ...



Hes wasn't able to completely break it only damage several bones 
sasuke's susanoo wasn't mastered nor did it have yata's mirror 

itachi would not resort to using susanoo early 

i think he would notice the gravitational pull from god realm 
and the absorption from hungry ghost realm given his intelligents level 
and the fact that they will be used during the fight 

amaterasu will spread reaching out to them all itachi doesnt have to constantly use it 
it will not extinguish because they split 

the revival tech isn't instant it takes time depending on how 
much chakra was wasted


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Since burning it to ashes it out of the question 
Then itachi would simply have to direct his attention to 
the summoning body

But i strongly disagree about it being unbeatable 
since it only gains heads then splits when one is destroyed 
it is possible that amaterasu would still be attached to the summon
and reduse it to ash


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Hes wasn't able to completely break it only damage several bones


so what? i have proof it isn't invincible.


> sasuke's susanoo wasn't mastered nor did it have yata's mirror


so what? the shield doesn't give you resistance against gravity. 


> itachi would not resort to using susanoo early


he has no other way to deal with asuras missles and head laser. and the cerebus summon can force susanoo out early.


> i think he would notice the gravitational pull from god realm


proof?you can't just say that with no proof. he has no way to defend against shinra tensei.


> and the absorption from hungry ghost realm given his intelligents level
> and the fact that they will be used during the fight


no.it might be too late by the time he finds out.


> amaterasu will spread reaching out to them all itachi doesnt have to constantly use it


and they will constantly split. and he does have to use MS to control the flames, which is draining precious chakra. chakra itachi can't afford to waste.


> it will not extinguish because they split


no evidence. dog summon can't die, according to the databook and manga feats.


> the revival tech isn't instant it takes time depending on how
> much chakra was wasted


so what? he has back-up with the other paths, he has time to revive the paths.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Pains dog summon has not dealt with a jutsu that remains even after its used 
naruto and jiraiya's attacks were single shot attacks 

amaterasu remains until the taget is destroyed and would most likely 
still be attached to them even if they do split


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Since burning it to ashes it out of the question
> Then itachi would simply have to direct his attention to
> the summoning body
> 
> ...


so now you go against canon. it can't die.

nagato>itachi


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> so what? i have proof it isn't invincible.
> 
> so what? the shield doesn't give you resistance against gravity.
> 
> ...



Fine you have proof that a strong enough attack can damage a susanoo thats not mastered and isn't completley out without yata's mirror

shinra tensei can be countered with a bushin 
and his Bunshin Bakuha can also feint Asura Realm 

pain will use his tech during the fight and itachi will notice that each bodie 
is using the same tech repeatedly its common sense 
he will also notice that god releam doesn't automatically attack again once shinra tensei is used 
he will realize it its not beyond his capabilities 

In a battle with itachi i doubt he would have the time to revive a bodie
he would have to focus on the bodies he already has in use


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

As i said if the summon is unbeatable which i doubt 
then itachi will go after the summoning body 
which will dismiss the summon once its defeated
The dog summon was only shown to multimply when defeated with direct attacks for exzample the way jiraiya dealt with them by using a summon
or naruto using resengan 

amaterasu could disintegrate it given time
since amaterasu isn't a direct attack


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Since burning it to ashes it out of the question
> Then itachi would simply have to direct his attention to
> the summoning body


 
Summons won't go away because he redirects his attention.



> But i strongly disagree about it being unbeatable
> since it only gains heads then splits when one is destroyed
> it is possible that amaterasu would still be attached to the summon
> and reduse it to ash



Nothing stops it from splitting and eventually getting one which has no flames; also we're told in the databook that it does not die.



madarauchiha456 said:


> Pains dog summon has not dealt with a jutsu that remains even after its used
> naruto and jiraiya's attacks were single shot attacks



But we're still told that it doesn't die; meaning it doesn't die. The only jutsu Itachi has to permanently get rid of it is Susano-o.



> amaterasu remains until the taget is destroyed and would most likely
> still be attached to them even if they do split



It will be attached to the initial dog, but eventually during the splitting process it'll spawn a mut which isn't covered in flames.


Plus while Itachi's wasting chakra on Amaterasu, Pain can use another summon.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> As i said if the summon is unbeatable which i doubt
> then itachi will go after the summoning body
> which will dismiss the summon once its defeated
> The dog summon was only shown to multimply when defeated with direct attacks for exzample the way jiraiya dealt with them by using a summon
> ...



If Itachi runs for the summoning body he'll be attacked by the summon he ignored or walk right into a Banshou Ten'in combo.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Fine you have proof that a strong enough attack can damage a susanoo thats not mastered and isn't completley out without yata's mirror


i really get sick of this yata mirror argument. it can be maneuvered around and attacked from behind.


> shinra tensei can be countered with a bushin


how? once he's caught a bunshin can't save him.


> and his Bunshin Bakuha can also feint Asura Realm


 how does that save him from asuras head laser or missles?


> pain will use his tech during the fight and itachi will notice that each bodie
> is using the same tech repeatedly its common sense


and how do you know he won't be dead by then? nagato has the moves to kill him quickly.


> he will also notice that god releam doesn't automatically attack again once shinra tensei is used


how do you know he will notice this? furthermore even if he did he can have the other realms to fight itachi while he has to recover. the thing about you is you expect the other realms to just be sitting doing nothing.


> he will realize it its not beyond his capabilities


why do you continue to say things with no proof? how do you know what he will realize.


> In a battle with itachi i doubt he would have the time to revive a bodie
> he would have to focus on the bodies he already has in use


no. the bodies work simultaneously. he doesn't have to focus on nothing.he can revive any realm damaged while the others fight.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi wins.

Pain has shown weaknesses against genjutsu users. And as we all know Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user the the manga. 

Itachi has also shown to be one of the fastest characters in the anime as even been stated that people weren't able to follow his handsigns so he probably wouldn't let himself get stumped by pains' taijutsu. The first person in the anime who has physically dodged amaterasu is the Raikage and this was because he was able to produce speeds at the 4th Hokage's God Thunder technique. And I don't see another way how pain could block/dodge amaterasu. Too everyone who would say Shinra tensei. Amaterasu is an attack which is spawned in other words gravity has nothing to do with this so fast movements are a must.

Zetsu has also stated that Itachi is completely invincible while in Susanoo mode combound with the Totsuka no Katana and the Yata No Kagami. 
I see no way for pain too get through this defence and a couple slashes from Susanoo's right arm would already be enough to end the fight. 

Please prove me how pain could actually beat God *cough Itachi.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

i quit. people actually think itachi can defeat nagato 

this is how easily he can end itachi. he can just get on his bird summon, with all the realms, fly far out of itachi's range and nuke him with CT  or CST.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> i quit. people actually think itachi can defeat nagato
> 
> this is how easily he can end itachi. he can just get on his bird summon, with all the realms, fly far out of itachi's range and nuke him with CT  or CST.



Genjutsu the bird and watch Five Realms fall to their death?


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Genjutsu the bird and watch Five Realms fall to their death?


assuming the bird is trying to look into itachi's eyes?


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> i quit. people actually think itachi can defeat nagato
> 
> this is how easily he can end itachi. he can just get on his bird summon, with all the realms, fly far out of itachi's range and nuke him with CT  or CST.



yea and like Itachi wouldn't be able to use block it? dodge it? or even make sure pain isn't able to attack. We have seen pain's full power, we haven't seen Itachi's. Even as we haven't seen Itachi's full power I already find Itachi's stronger then Pain. Why? Madara would've fucked around with Sasuke if Itachi wouldn't have been there. And Madara commanded pain. Madara even admitted that if he hadn't kept a couple of secrets, Itachi would've killed him. We know for a fact Madara > Pain.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> assuming the bird is trying to look into itachi's eyes?



Itachi can cast genjutsu by merely moving a finger?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> i really get sick of this yata mirror argument. it can be maneuvered around and attacked from behind.
> 
> how? once he's caught a bunshin can't save him.
> 
> ...



He can still react he's not completely helpless to shinra tensei 
in fact it would work well against him 

what will he do once behind susanoo 
since itachi clearly isn't going to be moving or attacking him while its out 
and again its range has alot to do with him not getting close 

where have i said pain will be doing nothing 
all im doing is countering your suggestions and i have said that pain 
would defend with other bodies but itachi would use it later on in the fight 

Kakashi noticed it 
naruto noticed the interval 
jiraiya noticed it 
a retard would notice that hes being attacked by the same move 
over and over and over again 

I never said he couldnt just that it would be hard since itachi 
is skilled at kage bushins knowing which one is the real itachi is impossible 
the one the pains are fighting could very well be a clone 
itachi would see the bodies being revived and taget that bodie also


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Genjutsu the bird and watch Five Realms fall to their death?



Genjutsu won't be so easy. Unless they look into his eyes like 

Even more so, its implied Nagato himself controls the summons (Rinnegan and piercings) so I doubt he'll be stopping it in its tracks so easily.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

itachi with his blindness was able to counter sasuke more than once 
so saying he wouldnt realize pains abilities which are more direct is 
useless in this argument


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

YataNoKagami said:


> yea and like Itachi wouldn't be able to use block it? dodge it? or even make sure pain isn't able to attack.


he can't. it's hilarious to watch itachi fans argue itachi>nagato.


> We have seen pain's full power


not as a whole working together we haven't.


> we haven't seen Itachi's.


this is the problem with itachitards. they think this  means itachi is infinitely stronger than where he was.truth is sasuke will surpass him just by completing susanoo.


> Even as we haven't seen Itachi's full power I already find Itachi's stronger then Pain.


all i have to say is wow.


> Why?


probably fanboyism. no offense.


> Madara would've fucked around with Sasuke if Itachi wouldn't have been there.


no evidence that madara was afraid of itachi's power.


> And Madara commanded pain.


so what? itachi couldn't kill madara either.


> Madara even admitted that if he hadn't kept a couple of secrets, Itachi would've killed him.


so what? does this apply only to itachi? stop tarding. itachi was no match for madara. he could send itachi to hueco mundo and let him perish.


> We know for a fact Madara > Pain.


thats not a fact, sir.


YataNoKagami said:


> Itachi can cast genjutsu by merely moving a finger?


so what? the summon isn't worried about looking at itachi's girly fingernail polished hands.


itachi is minato level at best. and minato had to be surpassed just so naruto can take on a gimped pein without killing intent. and even then he had the upper hand.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> i quit. people actually think itachi can defeat nagato
> 
> this is how easily he can end itachi. he can just get on his bird summon, with all the realms, fly far out of itachi's range and nuke him with CT  or CST.



susanoo could be used and most likely would 
to defend against it and then countered when he gets in range 
of susanoo's attack which reaches 10m or possibly more


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> itachi with his blindness was able to counter sasuke more than once
> so saying he wouldnt realize pains abilities which are more direct is
> useless in this argument



Are you saying that Sasuke > Pain? Well I doubt that. We all know that Itachi was actually toying with Sasuke. But pain? Pain was serious against Naruto. even though I don't agree with the theory Sasuke > Pain I still say Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>>> Pain. There are just no arguments that can say that Pain can beat Itachi and let stand a healthy Itachi.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he can't. it's hilarious to watch itachi fans argue itachi>nagato.
> 
> not as a whole working together we haven't.
> 
> ...



pain has been seen working as a whole all bodies were out when he faced naruto 

sasuke has not shown any way of passing itachi by simply knowing his tech 
in fact many characters have stated that sasuke is inferior to itachi even with his techs 
since he doesn't use them the same as itachi would 

though its not that important and doesn't make itachi automatically win 
madara has said that itachi would have killed him had he known his secret 

itachi's fingers can be used to catch him in a genjutsu and shouldn't be underestimated by paintards
no offense


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain has been seen working as a whole all bodies were out when he faced naruto
> 
> sasuke has not shown any way of passing itachi by simply knowing his tech
> in fact many characters have stated that sasuke is inferior to itachi even with his techs
> ...



Win^^. though Paintards would track down Kishimoto and nuke him with some cheeseburgers.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

minato's level of skill would even be enough to defeat pain 

Naruto was no where near minato's level 
he needed minato's help to defeat pain though without it 
he would have still won due to the fact that naruto had 8 tails out 
and pain was already showing signs of exhaustion


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> itachi wins no matter how weak he is to pein



everything you're saying is just the same thing over and over again, so i want to stop this continuing circle of repeated arguments. it's like debating with a broken record.

nagato>itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

You're both broken records lol. Overestimation occurs on both sides.


----------



## αce (Dec 31, 2009)

Ok ignoring Itachi tards.

The poll has spoken. Pain wins.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> minato's level of skill would even be enough to defeat pain
> 
> Naruto was no where near minato's level


stopped reading here. naruto surpassed minato. flat out stated. like sasuke will surpass itachi with complete susanoo and become even with naruto again.

itachi is no god. nagato would rapestomp his overrated ass, and even minato.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> madarauchiha456 said:
> 
> 
> > everything you're saying is just the same thing over and over again, so i want to stop this continuing circle of repeated arguments. it's like debating with a broken record.
> ...


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 31, 2009)

Lol @ Madauchiha456 calling other people tards , the dude has basically all his posts on this thread.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> everything you're saying is just the same thing over and over again, so i want to stop this continuing circle of repeated arguments. it's like debating with a broken record.
> 
> nagato>itachi



when have i stated that 
i sure that i haven't posted that


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You're both broken records lol. Overestimation occurs on both sides.


yeah you're right illusory. i keep saying the same stuff too, but i'm forced too because he keeps bringing up the same thing.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> stopped reading here. naruto surpassed minato. flat out stated. like sasuke will surpass itachi with complete susanoo and become even with naruto again.
> 
> itachi is no god. nagato would rapestomp his overrated ass, and even minato.



Fallacy.

Sasuke will NEVER surpass Itachi by gaining a complete Susanoo. Why? Because there are only 1 Yata no Kagami exists. Only 1 Katana no Tsuka (Orochimaru searched for this his whole life). You still didn't answer the question; why Nagato didn't rapestomp Itachi?


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

YataNoKagami said:


> He told you why he thought why Itachi>Nagato though you didn't tell us any arguments why Nagato>Itachi.


i did. read the whole convo before jumping in it.


madarauchiha456 said:


> when have i stated that
> i sure that i didn't post that


you didn't. i did


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> Lol @ Madauchiha456 calling other people tards , the dude has basically all his posts on this thread.



Defending a character with logic and the number of times you respond 
does not classify me as a tard but far from it


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

Uchiha wankers hate losing huh?

Pain rapes hard and Itachi has no vaseline for this one.

Pain has summons, chakra absorbtion, shared vision, gravity attacks, ressurection. Even if his whole team dies, Nagato can simply resurrect them. Its pretty futile for Itachi actually.

Quick! someone go make a Sasuke vs Kakashi thread so the Uchiha-tards can recover from this blow to the gut!


----------



## Demonx3 (Dec 31, 2009)

itachi would lose and thats that and pain would win. Unless u figure something out. Like how bout itachi went right into where pain is controlling his 6 ways of pain.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

YataNoKagami said:


> Fallacy.
> 
> Sasuke will NEVER surpass Itachi by gaining a complete Susanoo. Why? Because there are only 1 Yata no Kagami exists. Only 1 Katana no Tsuka (Orochimaru searched for this his whole life). You still didn't answer the question; why Nagato didn't rapestomp Itachi?


so now you think a main character won't have complete susanoo no matter how heavily it's hinted? okay...


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Ok ignoring Itachi tards.



Just a warning. I'm going to start negging posts like this. Please refrain from downgrading the opinions of others while offering nothing contributive yourself. We can all see the points made and draw our own conclusions. Considering that both Pein and Itachi had much more to show this issue will never be fully resolved without a direct statement from the author. It would seem, as has been pointed out, that we're each parroting offensive tactics and counters with no clear compromise.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You're both broken records lol. Overestimation occurs on both sides.



One side doesn't make a handicap seem more than it actually was. 

Though, you're not wrong. But if they can back themselves up with pages then its probably not overestimation.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

where have i said 
itachi wins no matter how weak he is to pein
if you can show me that post please do

itachi is in no way inferior to pain


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Pain and Itachi fight to decide which one is the strongest.
> 
> Location: Konoha ruins
> State of Mind: IC
> ...




How can you vote Itachi? Itachi is in his sick state (slightly off his prime) and Pain has all six Realms out.

... Remember what one Tsukuyomi did to his reflexes? Amaterasu did something similar (he got hit by a Katon he likely should've dodged [or not since Zetsu didn't see an issue with this]).

I mean with that Itachi, how can you say Itachi wins? Especially when I see most arguments relying on his Mangekyou Sharingan usages _with_ Kage Bunshins --- remember his 2.5 stamina?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> Uchiha wankers hate losing huh?
> 
> Pain rapes hard and Itachi has no vaseline for this one.
> 
> ...



Nagato hasn't shown the ability to ressurect anyone 
from the position he's in while controlling them 
hell realm has been the only body shown to have that tech 
If the whole team dies itachi won


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> where have i said
> itachi wins no matter how weak he is to pein





> if you can show me that post please do


you didn't say it bro, i edited your post lol.


> itachi is in no way inferior to pain


show me a scan of him being superior.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How can you vote Itachi? Itachi is in his sick state (slightly off his prime) and Pain has all six Realms out.
> 
> ... Remember what one Tsukuyomi did to his reflexes? Amaterasu did something similar (he got hit by a Katon he likely should've dodged [or not since Zetsu didn't see an issue with this]).
> 
> I mean with that Itachi, how can you say Itachi wins? Especially when I see most arguments relying on his Mangekyou Sharingan usages _with_ Kage Bunshins --- remember his 2.5 stamina?




Itachi's reflexes were not slowed by Tsukuyomi 
they were slowed by his sickness 
Tsukuyomi was broken that is possibly the only reason his reaction time was off 
pain hasn't shown anything to prove he can break Tsukuyomi
Pains agrument is reliant on the fact that he has 6 bodies


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> you didn't say it bro, i edited your post lol.
> 
> show me a scan of him being superior.



yeah i figured you altered it


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi's reflexes were not slowed by Tsukuyomi
> they were slowed by his sickness



Which took effect when he used Tsukuyomi.



> Tsukuyomi was broken that is possibly the only reason his reaction time was off



Tsukuyomi takes a lot of chakra; which affected his disease. Meaning his reflexes will be altered after using it.



> pain hasn't shown anything to prove he can break Tsukuyomi



Pain has partners. Something Killer B. showed would work fine.



> Pains agrument is reliant on the fact that he has 6 bodies



Yup. And its a strong one too. With it he nullifies Ninjutsu and Taijutsu and has strong counters to Genjutsu.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

I shall point out assumptions that make this difficult

_-Pein is or is not immune to all Genjutsu aside from Tsukiyomi-
-Itachi's mastery can or can not overcome Negato's resistance-
-Genjutsu can or can not effect more than one person at a time by Itachi's hand-
-Karasu Bushin can or can not put more than one Pein under Genjutsu-
-Tsukiyomi does or does not have a larger effect on the battle-
-Preta Realm can or can not intercept extremely quick attacks like Amatarasu-
-Preta Realm can or can not rush Itachi to stop Susano slashsealing-
-Susano can or can not deal with summons like it dealt with the Hydra-
-A single Amatarasu can or can not effect more than one body in this situation-
-Pein Realms can or can not be resurrected after being disintegrated-
-The Sword of Totsuka and Mirror of Yata are or are not chakra themselves-
-Itachi can or can not partially summon and dispel Susano and its items-
-Itachi is or is not clever enough to avoid these potential counters-
-Itachi is or is not substantially faster and trickier than Pein-
-Chou Shinra Tensei can or can not be countered with Susano-
-Chou Shinra Tensei can or can not be used while other bodies are active-
-Chibaku Tensei can or can not be countered with Susano-
-Chibaku Tensei can or can not be used while other bodies are active-
-These attacks would or would not come in to play-_

There is reason to believe Itachi could win this as Preta is vital.


----------



## Vergil642 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy, I'm assembling scans and further explanations just for you as per your request, but this is a post that's too quick and easy to do to ignore.

And Ace, I cut out the parts I don't disagree with.



♠Ace♠ said:


> Intelligence:
> Give me one notable intellignece feat from Itachi. Pain>Itachi in intelligence. His formation against Naruto was a smart move, and it resulted in him eventually gaining the upper hand.




Itachi's life between the Uchiha massacre and his death was effectively preplanned, to extreme detail in some places (see his final battle) and pulled off perfectly, to the point only those who he'd already told about his secret plans and generally made aware that he was still loyal to Konoha (so Madara, Danzou and the two advisors) knew what he was really after.

Pains great intelligence feat is Nagato being smart and keeping his strongest body in the middle, protected by three weaker ones, and the key body to keeping Pain going and going at the back, protected by everything else.

It honestly surprises me when people say that Nagato is anything above normal intelligence for any high level Ninja.



> Genjutsu:
> 
> He can only genjutsu one body at a time. Munboy already addressed this.



Two KBs and suddenly half of Pain can be paused mid battle.

And there's no reason Itachi can't use Kasegui no Jutsu more than once, on more than one opponent at a time. All it is is eye contact, followed by the opponent being paralysed, it requires no further attention by Itachi.



> Bunshin overpowering:
> 
> You are kidding right?



When combined with Genjutsu, it's an extremely deadly weapon. Even to Pain it's something he should be careful about.



> Amaterasu:
> Get's absorbed by fat Pain. Deva won't stand there when MS get's activated.
> inb4 you say he can't, just because he can't



Deva shouldn't really be standing there at all, he should stay on the move and avoid getting caught by Genjutsu. Which also means Nagato has less viewpoints on the battle, undermining his multiple vantage point advantage.

Oh, and by the time Amaterasu is used Hungry Ghost will have revealed his jutsu. He isn't nearly fast enough to get between Itachi and another Pain before Itachi uses Amaterasu and Itachi isn't nearly stupid enough to try Amaterasu on someone who's able to absorb any of his Ninjutsu.

But I went into that in detail in my long post.



> Susan-o:
> 
> Isn't immune to gravity, or else it wouldn't be earthbound



Good thing Deva uses attraction/repulsion foces, not actual gravity.

And it's even better that we know you can overpower this. With Yata's Mirror, there's a considerable chance of this happening. Or at least it just tanking the force of Shinra Tensei. Which Susanoo can probably do anyway, considering the kind of force needed to break it's most basic, freshly activated form.

For Itachi's anyway.



> These things aren't useless, but they aren't doing anything to Pain.



For what reason? You make statements and don't explain them, or even look at the fact that Itachi can in fact use his jutsu in ways that aren't as straightforward as first it may appear.


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Nagato hasn't shown the ability to ressurect anyone
> from the position he's in while controlling them
> hell realm has been the only body shown to have that tech
> If the whole team dies itachi won



Your Itachi bias is obviously blinding you or did you remember Nagato resurrected *nearly the ENTIRE VILLAGE OF KONOHA?!*

Nagato is the 7th pain the one who controls life and death.

Genjutsu is meaningless, Nagato is constantly sending chakra to the other pain bodies. As soon as he realizes something is amiss he can disturb that bodies chakra.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Which took effect when he used Tsukuyomi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




pain hasn't shown any sign of having a inner partner when bee was traped inside the genjutsu which probably wasn't Tsukuyomi his biju took over his body since he was unable to move 

The fact that he has more bodies doesn't automatically make him victorious 
itachi has the skill and the intelligence to win


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain hasn't shown any sign of having a inner partner when bee was traped inside the genjutsu which probably wasn't Tsukuyomi his biju took over his body since he was unable to move
> 
> The fact that he has more bodies doesn't automatically make him victorious
> itachi has the skill and the *intelligents* to win



Who are these intelligents? anyone I know?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> Your Itachi bias is obviously blinding you or did you remember Nagato resurrected *nearly the ENTIRE VILLAGE OF KONOHA?!*
> 
> Nagato is the 7th pain the one who controls life and death.
> 
> Genjutsu is meaningless, Nagato is constantly sending chakra to the other pain bodies. As soon as he realizes something is amiss he can disturb that bodies chakra.



That was a completely different jutsu and it cost him his life 
the bodies wouldnt have anyone controlling them so itachi would still win


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> -Pein is or is not immune to all Genjutsu aside from Tsukiyomi-



Where are you all getting 'immune' from?



> -Itachi's master can or can not overcome Negato's resistance-



........................ Please say you're joking if you're referring to the black blades... Jiraiya couldn't resist, Kakashi couldn't hence he pulled it out. Naruto was completely immobile when stabbed by many of them.

How can Itachi overcome it?

Unless you're referring to a direct stab from Nagato himself; in which case I'd ask how Itachi's chakra is comparable to KSM.



> -Genjutsu can or can not effect more than one person at a time by Itachi's hand-



If they all look at the hand they should. But quick question, Itachi uses that when people try not to look into his eyes from what we saw; yet he didn't use it on Kakashi? Implying that it only works effectively on those weak against Genjutsu like Naruto was.



> -Karasu Bushin can or can not put more than one Pein under Genjutsu-



It can. But that's assuming Pain doesn't absorb the Bunshin or send it back with a Shinra Tensei or attack it with the Demon Realm.



> -Tsukiyomi does or does not have a larger effect on the battle-



... What effect are you referring to?



> -Preta Realm can or can not intercept extremely quick attacks like Amatarasu-



As we saw FRS travels fast; Preta Realm caught it.
Amaterasu isn't that instant when the target is more than 5m away from it and high level opponents such as B or Ei can seemingly sense the chakra travelling.

But then again there's the Shinra Tensei factor.



> -Preta Realm can or can not rush Itachi to stop Susano from becoming slash happy-



Implying that he cannot absorb the chakra Susano'o?



> -Susano can or can not deal with summons like it dealt with the Hydra-



The manga showed it can.



> -A single Amatarasu can or can not effect more than one body in this situation-



It can, Pain just has a couple of counters to it.



> -Pein Realms can or can not be resurrected after being disintegrated by Amatarasu-



If there are parts of them left and Hell Realm's fine. Then yes they can be revived.



> -The Sword of Totsuka and Mirror of Yata are or are not chakra themselves-



One of the weakest arguments I've seen in this forum. They are chakra; every Susano'o has them (according to the DB) in fact Sasuke's imperfect Susano'o has a sword looking a lot like Totsuka.



> -Itachi can or can not partially summon and dispel Susano and its items-



Another one of these weak arguments --- that's Sasuke's feat. Not Itachi's.



> -Itachi is or is not clever enough to avoid these potential counters-



Actually this doesn't effect anything; people here are on the notion that Pain will fall for simple Genjutsu tricks and that he's quite weak against it.



> -Itachi is or is not substantially faster and trickier than Pein-



He's not shown to be tricky like Naruto. He's not shown to have lost significant speed.



> -Chou Shinra Tensei can or can not be countered with Susano-



The manga showed that Susano'o can counter it. Databook backs it up.



> -Chou Shinra Tensei can or can not be used while other bodies are active-



Can't. The manga's shown it.



> -Chibaku Tensei can or can not be countered with Susano-



If Susano'o can keep on slicing while Chibaki Tensei attracts then sure. But depending on Nagato's chakra, it could be a while.



> -Chibaku Tensei can or can not be used while other bodies are active-



It can. If they're close enough to the real one, that is.



> -These attacks would or would not come in to play-[/I]



Its very likely these attacks will come into play considering the opponents.



> There is reason to believe Itachi could win this as Preta is vital.



Not necessarily, as the God Realm can somewhat fill in the Preta Realm's role.
But that's also assuming Pain will make some OOC errors ----- not the case he's IC according to the OP.


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> That was a completely different jutsu and it cost him his life
> the bodies wouldnt have anyone controlling them so itachi would still win



Yes I would only assume resurrecting an entire village would be more taxing on chakra reserves than resurrecting 6 people.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

And the fact that your correcting
them means you have no argument


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> pain hasn't shown any sign of having a inner partner when bee was traped inside the genjutsu which probably wasn't Tsukuyomi his biju took over his body since he was unable to move
> 
> The fact that he has more bodies doesn't automatically make him victorious
> itachi has the skill and the intelligents to win



B. never said an inner partner is required. He said a partner is required. 

Only others with skill and intelligence have tried to beat Pain, Naruto was pinned down to the ground and Jiraiya died.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> Yes I would only assume resurrecting an entire village would be more taxing on chakra reserves than resurrecting 6 people.



He cannot revive a body which has no soul once all of them are destroyed 
he loses 
He revived the village by returning to them their souls


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy, I could have guessed your _opinions_.


----------



## αce (Dec 31, 2009)

Pain isn't weak to genjutsu. He cast one of the strongest mind control genjutsus in the manga.

He isn't being affected by any finger genjutsu or crow genjutsu.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> B. never said an inner partner is required. He said a partner is required.
> 
> Only others with skill and intelligence have tried to beat Pain, Naruto was pinned down to the ground and Jiraiya died.



Killer Bee was only able to react in time because of his 
inner biju which took over once bee was unable to move 

sasuke isn't itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

You don't have to be "weak to Genjutsu" for Itachi's to work. Orochimaru  has maximum knowledge and proficiency in Genjutsu and we know how that works out. Naruto had the most sublime chakra manipulation in the manga, the FRS, as well as the Kyubi and we know he was susceptible. Sasuke is a master of Genjutsu and he was momentarily caught by someone arguably less skilled than Itachi in the art.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Pain isn't weak to genjutsu. He cast one of the strongest mind control genjutsus in the manga.
> 
> He isn't being affected by any finger genjutsu or crow genjutsu.



Which one was that exactly


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> He cannot revive a body which has no soul once all of them are destroyed
> he loses
> He revived the village by returning to them their souls



You continue to make no sense. So you're saying what Hell realm can do he cannot amirite? tsk tsk tsk...


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You don't have to be "weak to Genjutsu" for Itachi's to work. Orochimaru  has maximum knowledge and proficiency in Genjutsu and we know how that works out. Naruto had the most sublime chakra manipulation in the manga, the FRS, as well as the Kyubi and we know he was susceptible.



Orochimaru doesn't have someone able to send chakra into his body. The 6 bodies of pain do.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Munboy, I could have guessed your _opinions_.



Opinions I can *actually back up with evidence* if you want.

Most of stuff you mentioned in your list well...now that's _your opinions._ I mean you actually considered the possibility that Itachi has partial Susano'os something _only_ Sasuke has done.



madarauchiha456 said:


> Killer Bee was only able to react in time because of his
> inner biju which took over once bee was unable to move
> 
> sasuke isn't itachi



Bee still said it was just a partner. Plus Tsukuyomi had taken effect.

Right. Sasuke is more suited to take on someone like Pain. Why did you bring up Sasuke?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

The revival jutsu he used was Gedo rinne tensei 
which cost him his life 
It is a completely defferent jutsu from the jutsu hell realm uses 
to revive the bodies
The argument is that he cannot revive them once their all dead


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 31, 2009)

> Good thing Deva uses attraction/repulsion foces, *not actual gravity*.



The Fanbook II (Kishi) stated the contrary though.


----------



## Xion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> The revival jutsu he used was Gedo rinne tensei
> which cost him his life
> It is a completely defferent jutsu from the jutsu hell realm uses
> to revive the bodies
> The argument is that he cannot revive them once their all dead



It only cost him his life because he used all his other abilities.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Opinions I can *actually back up with evidence* if you want.
> 
> Most of stuff you mentioned in your list well...now that's _your opinions._ I mean you actually considered the possibility that Itachi has partial Susano'os something _only_ Sasuke has done.
> 
> ...




Itachi has been shown to use partial susanoo 
since susanoo wasn't completely out when kirin was 
used its bones were only shown to be active 
once kirin was over then itachi completely summoned susanoo 

If it was Tsukuyomi sasuke didn't use the time manipulation effect


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> you actually considered the possibility that Itachi has partial Susano'os something _only_ Sasuke has done.



After Sasuke said that he was nowhere near mastering Susano to Itachi's level.


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> The revival jutsu he used was Gedo rinne tensei
> which cost him his life
> It is a completely defferent jutsu from the jutsu hell realm uses
> to revive the bodies
> The argument is that he cannot revive them once their all dead



Gedo Rinne Tensei costed him his life because *his chakras levels were low after fighting a whole village bro.*  ( Konan implied it )


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Xion said:


> It only cost him his life because he used all his other abilities.




Peins bodies have no soul meaning they are not alive 
so that tech wouldn't revive them


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

this combo ends itachi.

/thread.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> this combo ends itachi.
> 
> /thread.



 [Preta down]
 [Ouch]

/lol

Pein would win, but not if he did that.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> this combo ends itachi.
> 
> /thread.





you are still able to move


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachis kage bushin skill far surpasses kakashi's


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

i knew someone would respond like this.


Illusory said:


> [Preta down]


lol tsukuyomi.
i didn't see nagato looking in naruto's eyes there. i doubt a mind torture jutsu like tsukyomi would be effective on emotionless dead corpes. 


> [Ouch]
> 
> /lol
> 
> Pein would win, but not if he did that.


he can't summon a full susanoo that fast. not to mention preta was probably already in absorption mode at that point.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> this combo ends itachi.
> 
> /thread.



This attack ends both preta and deva.




Inu said:


> i knew someone would respond like this.
> 
> lol tsukuyomi.
> i didn't see nagato looking in naruto's eyes there. i doubt a mind torture jutsu like tsukyomi would be effective on emotionless dead corpes.
> ...



He wouldn't need a full susanoo.Besides he'd be able to summon fast enough, considering he used it block lightning which is 1/1000 of a second.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> you are still able to move


thats because itachi had prior knowldege bro. no one has ever countered it when they experienced it for the first time.


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> The revival jutsu he used was Gedo rinne tensei
> which cost him his life
> It is a completely defferent jutsu from the jutsu hell realm uses
> to revive the bodies
> The argument is that he cannot revive them once their all dead



What proof do you have to back up this claim? I see it as simple resurrection/revival no specific factors are needed. You are just speculating. *Control over life and death means control over life and death*


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> This attack ends both preta and deva.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And if they die from that pitiful attack they can just get revived.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> i knew someone would respond like this.
> 
> lol tsukuyomi.
> i didn't see nagato looking in naruto's eyes there. i doubt a mind torture jutsu like tsukyomi would be effective on emotionless dead corpes.
> ...



Susanoo can be summoned faster than kirin can attack 
which is incredibly fast since kirin travels at 1/1000th of a second


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> This attack ends both preta and deva.


 thats the best you could come up with ? kakashi was able to dodge that. pein has shown to have speed at least as fast as kakashi's.


> He wouldn't need a full susanoo.Besides he'd be able to summon fast enough, considering he used it block lightning which is 1/1000 of a second.


yes he would, otherwise preta could just absorb it.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Susanoo can be summoned faster than kirin can attack
> which is incredibly fast since kirin travels at 1/1000th of a second


still no proof he can summon a full susanoo that fast. and besides, pein can just absorb it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> thats because itachi had prior knowldege bro. no one has ever countered it when they experienced it for the first time.



kakashi He had no prior knowledge of his ability 
as well 
God realms ability was still unknown 
It was his first encounter with that jutsu


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> What proof do you have to back up this claim? I see it as simple resurrection/revival no specific factors are needed. You are just speculating. *Control over life and death means control over life and death*



Ive addressed this already


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> kakashi He had no prior knowledge of his ability
> as well
> God realms ability was still unknown
> It was his first encounter with that jutsu


no it wasn't. look somewhere around in chapter 420. that was when he used it for the first time on kakashi. kakashi only countered it once he saw and experienced the attack.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> still no proof he can summon a full susanoo that fast. and besides, pein can just absorb it.



If he couln't summon susanoo with that speed than explain how he 
did


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> If he couln't summon susanoo with that speed than explain how he
> did


he didn't summon *full* susanoo that fast.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> * thats the best you could come up with ? kakashi was able to dodge that. pein has shown to have speed at least as fast as kakashi's.*
> 
> yes he would, otherwise preta could just absorb it.



I was countering your combo, the bansho tennin and preta grabs and absorbs his chakra. I was saying that if preta did grab itachi, it'd probably be an exploding clone and say bye bye to preta and deva. So they couldn't dodge it. Besides the explosion happened after kakashi jumped out of the way, because itachi wasn't trying to kill him.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> no it wasn't. look somewhere around in chapter 420. that was when he used it for the first time on kakashi. kakashi only countered it once he saw and experienced the attack.



But he was still able to move or react to it meaning 
its not a definit win


----------



## David (Dec 31, 2009)

Espn, Preta absorbs chakra-based attacks.

If he grabbed an exploding clone, he'd suck the chakra out of it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he didn't summon *full* susanoo that fast.



But he was able to summon a partial susanoo at that speed 
which is good enough since pain's attacks are not equal with 
kirin's speed


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> no it wasn't. look somewhere around in chapter 420. that was when he used it for the first time on kakashi. kakashi only countered it once he saw and experienced the attack.



He had knowledge of him being able to push and repell attacks 
not of pain being able pull him in


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Ive addressed this already



No you havent. You are clinging to a requirement that was never mentioned to have to be met in the manga or any other canon source. (If you have a scan or a link to prove me wrong be my guest).

You aren't making any sense, If Nagato cannot do such a simple task than he wouldn't have any pain bodies in the first place since they all lost their souls right?


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> But he was still able to move or react to it meaning
> its not a definit win


after he saw the move. it's a canon fact that nobody has countered the attack after seeing it the first time. itachi is not special.


madarauchiha456 said:


> But he was able to summon a partial susanoo at that speed
> which is good enough since pain's attacks are not equal with
> kirin's speed


doesn't matter. he can't summon a full one that quickly, and even if he can pein can absorb it.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> I was countering your combo, the bansho tennin and preta grabs and absorbs his chakra. I was saying that if preta did grab itachi, it'd probably be an exploding clone and say bye bye to preta and deva


he absorbs chakra. a bunshin is chakra. it wouldn't do anythiung, especially since preta was in absorption mode. also how can he make a bunshin while in basho tennin for the first time?


> So they couldn't dodge it.


yet someone with comparable speed dodged it.


> Besides the explosion happened after kakashi jumped out of the way, because itachi wasn't trying to kill him.


but he reacted to it and noticed before it even exploded.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> No you havent. You are clinging to a requirement that was never mentioned to have to be met in the manga or any other canon source. (If you have a scan or a link to prove me wrong be my guest).
> 
> You aren't making any sense, If Nagato cannot do such a simple task than he wouldn't have any pain bodies in the first place since they all lost their souls right?



Its not a requirement  its common sense 
pains bodies are controlled by chakra received by piercings 
in his bodies 
pains bodies have no soul they have no mind of their own 
hell realm doesn't revive the bodies it repairs them 
this is a completely different jutsu from that which hell realm uses 
nagato's jutsu returns the souls of the dead 
pains bodies are controlled through chakra


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> after he saw the move. it's a canon fact that nobody has countered the attack after seeing it the first time. itachi is not special.
> 
> doesn't matter. he can't summon a full one that quickly, and even if he can pein can absorb it.



Reguardless if he has prior knowledge of it or not 
He's going to react 

Pain can't absorb a huge amount of chakra in seconds 
and Itachi wouldn't resort to susanoo 
bunshins would work fine


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

436 posts. And people like to believe there's nothing to discuss


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Reguardless if he has prior knowledge of it or not
> He's going to react


you have zero proof. i have proof that every single person to experience it for the first time couldn't do anything about. even a super genius like kakashi.


> Pain can't absorb a huge amount of chakra in seconds
> and Itachi wouldn't resort to susanoo


read the jiraiya/pein fight. he absorbed ultimate rasengan like nothing.


> bunshins would work fine


worst idea yet. pein can easily absorb that.

i will get back to you later if you reply. after reading your statistics i think this is the only thread you have posted in  while i'm gone try to explore the forum  there is more here than an itachi vs pein fight


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> 436 posts. And people like to believe there's nothing to discuss


there isn't. you know just as well as i and everyone else do that nagato would shit all over itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Is there a databook entry confirming that Susano is ordinary chakra?



> Susanoo is a technique that creates a *spiritual being* resembling a yamabushi. It is the third ability granted by the Mangekyō Sharingan, along with Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. According to Madara Uchiha, for a Sharingan user to activate the Susanoo is a rarity.[2] Like the the other techniques granted by the Mangekyō Sharingan, the user is strained while using Susanoo because they must act as a medium for the *spirit*, allowing it to consume their *life force energy*.



_The Mirror of Yata_ was used by Rikodou, so it's likely not pure chakra.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he absorbs chakra. a bunshin is chakra. it wouldn't do anythiung, especially since preta was in absorption mode. also how can he make a bunshin while in basho tennin for the first time?



Sure but as soon as the clone got near them it'd explode. I still believe pain would win, I'm just countering the ignorant bansho tennin + chakra blade (or whatever) combo, as if it takes anyone. I just wanted to say the counter for it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

*UOT*



Illusory said:


> 436 posts. And people like to believe there's nothing to discuss



Jiraiya v Itachi reaches 2000 posts usually. And I'm sure you can guess why. Same can be applied here.



Illusory said:


> After Sasuke said that he was nowhere near mastering Susano to Itachi's level.



He just said he hasn't perfected it. AKA he can't get the flesh to materialise fully along with the armour and items.

Nothing about partial uses. Especially since there is no manga evidence that Itachi was capable of anything like  or even .

Don't see why people try to pass Sasuke's Mangekyou feats as Itachi's/Naruto's Sennin Mode feats as Jiraiya's. 



madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi has been shown to use partial susanoo
> since susanoo wasn't completely out when kirin was
> used its bones were only shown to be active
> once kirin was over then itachi completely summoned susanoo
> ...





So me Itachi doing that.

Tsukuyomi is instant. The time manipulation is used how the user wants it; Sasuke didn't want to waste time.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Don't see why people try to pass Sasuke's Mangekyou feats as Itachi's/Naruto's Sennin Mode feats as Jiraiya's.



Naruto has mastered Sage Mode, Sasuke has not mastered the Mangyekou.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> you have zero proof. i have proof that every single person to experience it for the first time couldn't do anything about. even a super genius like kakashi.
> 
> read the jiraiya/pein fight. he absorbed ultimate rasengan like nothing.
> 
> ...


kakashi seemed to react to it as well as naruto 

Jiraiya's ultiamte resengan wasn't absorbed instantly 
susanoo is far superior in chakra compared to jiraiya's ultimate
resengan 


Bunshins have been proven to work well against pains 
shinra tensei tech 

pains absorbing body would have to absorb the Bunshin Bakuha   
with greater speed than itachi can detonate it 
which is controlled by itachi


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Susano may not be able to be absorbed at all.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Susano may not be able to be absorbed at all.



Its chakra as the databook states. The popular argument for this is the items. Well every Susano'o has the items from what the databook suggests and from what we can almost see with Sasuke's.

So its likely its absorbent. Especially (refer to Tayuya vs Shikamaru) the last time something was said to be spiritual...it turned out to just be chakra.



Illusory said:


> Naruto has mastered Sage Mode, Sasuke has not mastered the Mangyekou.



You need to master two jutsu (Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi) from the Mangekyou to attain Susano'o. Sasuke's got mastery over his jutsu (Susano'o) he just has yet to perfect it. Like how Naruto mastered Rasengan but had yet to perfect it till the Hermit training.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

You showed me that he can get out a complete Susano'o and perfect it in a short amount of time; not that he can use it partially like how Sasuke did in the scans I provided.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^Susanoo is made with the caster's chakra.
HM Jiariya,who has bijuu level chakra,uses a lot more chakra in his techniques,yet Hungry absorbed it.


----------



## Extasee (Dec 31, 2009)

Pein. I mean, he was feared by the Akatsuki members _because_ of his power right? If he wasn't, he wouldn't be leader. With moderate difficulty, but Pein would win.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^Susanoo is made with the caster's chakra.
> HM Jiariya,who has bijuu level chakra,uses a lot more chakra in his techniques,yet Hungry absorbed it.



No where has it said jiraiya has chakra on the level of a bijuu


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Susanoo is made with the caster's chakra.



Could you link me? I thought Susano was _summoned_ with chakra.



Nagatosama said:


> HM Jiariya,who has bijuu level chakra



?



Nagatosama said:


> uses a lot more chakra in his techniques,yet Hungry absorbed it.



I haven't seen anything comparable to _Susano_ from Jiraiya.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You showed me that he can get out a complete Susano'o and perfect it in a short amount of time; not that he can use it partially like how Sasuke did in the scans I provided.



That was basically a partial susanoo but on a larger scale considering 
itachi has perfected it 
it wasn't completely out until after kirin was finished 
itachi then formed the skin around it


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> No where has it said jiraiya has chakra on the level of a bijuu





Illusory said:


> Could you link me? I thought Susano was _summoned_ with chakra.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jiraiya in his base has 5 in stamina stat.With HM,he obviously has bijuu level chakra.
@Illusory:and from do u think he brings the chakra that constitutes Susanoo?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> That was basically a partial susanoo but on a larger scale considering
> itachi has perfected it
> it wasn't completely out until after kirin was finished
> itachi then formed the skin around it



Ah, no. You didn't show me that he can just get out the ribs. That he can just get out the arm. 

You showed you can only get out the whole thing then perfect it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Jiraiya in his base has 5 in stamina stat.With HM,he obviously has bijuu level chakra.



There's a gap between a 5 in stamina and having Bijuu stamina IMO.



Nagatosama said:


> @Illusory:and from do u think he brings the chakra that constitutes Susanoo?



From the link I provided it seemed that _Susano_ is a spiritual being who feeds off of the medium, Itachi or Sasuke, and devours their life force while out. As spiritual being, I don't see Preta Path absorbing it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Jiraiya in his base has 5 in stamina stat.With HM,he obviously has bijuu level chakra.
> @Illusory:and from do u think he brings the chakra that constitutes Susanoo?



Base 5 stamina only means that he can edure using a great amount of jutsu 
without tiring easily
it doesn't imply that he has biju level chakra


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ah, no. You didn't show me that he can just get out the ribs. That he can just get out the arm.



If Itachi is stated to be better with the technique why would he be unable to?


----------



## SSJ2 Gohan (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> .
> @Illusory:and from do u think he brings the chakra that constitutes Susanoo?



 from him--> no not him!! HIM-->


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> If Itachi is stated to be better with the technique why would he be unable to?



Itachi said to have perfected it. Never was it said that he was better.


Seriously, just because Itachi may not have what it takes to take on Pain doesn't mean you try to pass Sasuke's feats as Itachi's.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ah, no. You didn't show me that he can just get out the ribs. That he can just get out the arm.
> 
> You showed you can only get out the whole thing then perfect it.



Fine he might not have shown the ability to partial summon susanoo's
hand or ribs which would be pointless in that situation
But that doesn't really put sasuke's susanoo above itachi's in any way
and simply mastering it doesn't change that fact either 
itachi doesn't rely on it to win as sasuke does itachi 
only uses it when its necessary they use their MS techs in completely ways
sasuke tends to burn alot of chakra using Ms techs early on in the match
but i dont see why sasuke has anything to do with this argument


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi said to have perfected it. Never was it said that he was better.



Is this a serious counter?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Fine he might not have shown the ability to partial summon susanoo's
> hand or ribs which would be pointless in that situation
> But that doesn't really put sasuke's susanoo above itachi's in any way
> and simply mastering it doesn't change that fact either
> ...



Er it proves he surpassed his pro in using it. Sure he hasn't perfected it. But he can use it partially unlike Itachi. Sasuke has a lot more chakra than his brother.

If Itachi was like Sasuke [how I mentioned above] he probably could take Pain. But he isn't; likely this is why I see attempts of some Sasuke feats being passed as Itachi's.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^Sasuke doesn't want to use a complete Susanoo simply because it's too much of a strain(it eats life force),he's smart enough not to use a suicide jutsu.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Itachi has proven more than capable of defeating pain 
but not as easliy as itachtards seem to think 
vise versa for paintards as well 
though i doubt pain would win


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Is this a serious counter?



Of course. 

Since you cannot find me a panel where Itachi has used Susano'o partially like Sasuke did in the scans.

Find me panels of him using it like that before claiming nonsense saying Itachi can use partial Susano'o.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi has proven more than capable of defeating pain
> but not as easliy as itachtards seem to think
> vise versa for paintards as well
> though i doubt pain would win



Only all the evidence points to Itachi losing. Stamina, fighting style as well as his arsenal.

As well as the exaggerated claims on his handicap along with the trying to pass Sasuke's feats as Itachi's.

That also points to being being the stronger fighter here.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

When Sasuke _first_ awakened _Susano_ he used it partially. Partial transformations are a show of skill, they're showing his lack of skill. How can you really say, "the manga says Itachi perfected it, not that he was better than Sasuke with it?" That makes absolutely no sense!


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Er it proves he surpassed his pro in using it. Sure he hasn't perfected it. But he can use it partially unlike Itachi. Sasuke has a lot more chakra than his brother.
> 
> If Itachi was like Sasuke [how I mentioned above] he probably could take Pain. But he isn't; likely this is why I see attempts of some Sasuke feats being passed as Itachi's.



How does it prove he surpassed itachi in using susanoo all 
it proves is that he can summon a partail susanoo 

while sasuke had his curse mark he could also use a partial form 
but in no way does that mean he surpassed jugo since jugo is obviously 
more gifted in that area 
using a partial form proves nothing


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi has proven more than capable of defeating pain
> but not as easliy as itachtards seem to think
> vise versa for paintards as well
> though i doubt pain would win



Is this an argument??
LOL,look at the poll.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Only all the evidence points to Itachi losing. Stamina, fighting style as well as his arsenal.
> 
> As well as the exaggerated claims on his handicap along with the trying to pass Sasuke's feats as Itachi's.
> 
> That also points to being being the stronger fighter here.



Where have i tried to pass sauske's abilities onto itachi


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Actually,itachi using a partial susano'o was hinted after the latter couldn't fully take the damage caused by KIrin, a full susano'o with yata's mirror should easily tank it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Is this an argument??
> LOL,look at the poll.



The number of people that side with pain means nothing 
as most people dont give reasons 
numbers mean nothing as long as theirs facts to prove 
otherwise 
If i give you facts on global warming being man made 
and the majority of the people side with it being natural 
simply because they dont want to accept or it's their opinion 
it doesn't make it any less true that it's man made given the facts provided


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> When Sasuke _first_ awakened _Susano_ he used it partially. Partial transformations are a show of skill, they're showing his lack of skill. How can you really say, "the manga says Itachi perfected it, not that he was better than Sasuke with it?" That makes absolutely no sense!








Find me a scan of Itachi _ever_ doing that; then talk about him being able to use it partially.



madarauchiha456 said:


> How does it prove he surpassed itachi in using susanoo all
> it proves is that he can summon a partail susanoo



Itachi never used it partially.



> while sasuke had his curse mark he could also use a partial form
> but in no way does that mean he surpassed jugo since jugo is obviously
> more gifted in that area
> using a partial form proves nothing



In those terms no.

But with what the manga has shown us with Susano-o, yes.

Conclusion: Itachi can't use partial Susano'o. Therefore I'll ignore it as an argument due to the lack of evidence and assume that it'll be another attempt as passing on Sasuke's feats as Itachi's.



madarauchiha456 said:


> Where have i tried to pass sauske's abilities onto itachi



Partial Susano'o; like I showed in the scan. Saying Itachi could do that too.


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Nothing about partial uses. Especially since there is no manga evidence that Itachi was capable of anything like  or even .



Just because he hasn't shown it doesn't mean he cant do it. For instance, gaara hasn't shown the ability to make sand shurikens, but logically for him to completely control sand could he? Of course he can because gaara mastered his sand manipulation, similar to how itachi master susanoo. Which means he probably could use it he just hasn't been put in the situation to use it. Besides there's no manga evidence to say that he can't do so.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Find me a scan of Itachi _ever_ doing that; then talk about him being able to use it partially.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




It was a basic misjudgement in no way was i trying to pass his abilities on to 
itachi


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

3spn4life said:


> Just because he hasn't shown it doesn't mean he cant do it. For instance, gaara hasn't shown the ability to make sand shurikens, but logically for him to completely control sand could he? Of course he can because gaara mastered his sand manipulation, similar to how itachi master susanoo. Which means he probably could use it he just hasn't been put in the situation to use it. Besides there's no manga evidence to say that he can't do so.



Ah, here's the thing. In this section; he needs to show it before we say he can. 

Also it works better if you can prove he can use it, given Sasuke's surpassing Itachi in MS uses, he's done it with Amaterasu.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

since he hasn't shown anything to prove he can do a partial susanoo its speculation to assume that he can 
for the simple reason that sasuke can


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ah, here's the thing. In this section; he needs to show it before we say he can.
> 
> Also it works better if you can prove he can use it, given Sasuke's surpassing Itachi in MS uses, he's done it with Amaterasu.



No where does it say he surpassed him in MS techs 
but it does say that he is no where as intelligent in using 
he Ms techs 
which defines strenght in fights and the outcome of the fight
as proven in sasuke's current fight with danzo


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

And are you suggesting that a partial susanoo will be enough to defeat pain 

Sasuke hold no purpose of being mentioned in this thread 
as itachi is not sasuke and sasuke not itachi
itachi's intelligence with his ninjutsu,genjutsu and MS jutsu is what basically defeats pain whether he can do a partail susanoo 
wouldn't mean anything since it would have to be fully released to defend against pain


----------



## Black☆Star (Dec 31, 2009)

Pain wins with easy difficulty. Hell, even if he stays in defence he still outlasts Itachi.
Tsukuyomi - doesn't work on dead bodies
Amaterasu - absorbed or repelled
Susanoo - if can't be absorbed then deva shinra tensei`s Susanoo till Itachi dies


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

akkadiaN said:


> Pain wins with easy difficulty. Hell, even if he stays in defence he still outlasts Itachi.
> Tsukuyomi - doesn't work on dead bodies
> Amaterasu - absorbed or repelled
> Susanoo - if can't be absorbed then deva shinra tensei`s Susanoo till Itachi dies



This is exactly why numbers on polls mean nothing


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Maybe if you would have read the thread at all you 
would have came across some evidence on the 480 posts that are available to you that would prove 
that it's not that simple and itachi has plenty of counters for shinra tensei and the absorbing pain body


----------



## Bloo (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ah, here's the thing. In this section; he needs to show it before we say he can.
> 
> Also it works better if you can prove he can use it, given Sasuke's surpassing Itachi in MS uses, he's done it with Amaterasu.



I wouldn't call spamming it constantly, mastering exactly.

And also, so you're saying sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi. I mean he's shown mangekyo genjutsu but they weren't tsukyomi, similar but not tsukuyomi. But hasn't it been stated to use susanoo you must have amaterasu AND tsukuyomi unlocked. I'm going to quote one of my favorite quotes from the series to relate to this.

"People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs" - Itachi Uchiha


----------



## Black☆Star (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Maybe if you would have read the thread at all you
> would have came across some evidence on the 480 posts that are available to you that would prove
> that it's not that simple and itachi has plenty of counters for shinra tensei and the absorbing pain body



Rly now? 
How does he counter shinra tenesei? Or Chou shinra tensei?


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Maybe if you would have read the thread at all you
> would have came across some evidence on the 480 posts that are available to you that would prove
> that it's not that simple and itachi has plenty of counters for shinra tensei and the absorbing pain body



No there are three people who keep repeating the same unlikely situation where Itachi can counter Shinra Tensei.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy, actually agrees on that point if I'm not mistaken. Tsunade demonstrated a tactic to counter Pein's _Shinra Tensei_, but the _Mirror of Yata_ would obviously stop it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

akkadiaN said:


> Rly now?
> How does he counter shinra tenesei? Or Chou shinra tensei?



Shinra tensei doesn't immobilize his reactions 
kage bunshins can be used to counter given that itachi 
has incredible bunshin speed it will work well agianst it 

pain would likely avoid using Chou shinra since it could damage his bodies 
and is shown only to use it while the other pains were out of action and 
a safe distance away 
and against a opponent like itachi the side effects are too severe 
he will not be able to move for quite a while


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> No there are three people who keep repeating the same unlikely situation where Itachi can counter Shinra Tensei.



Bunshins are likely to work since pain cant redirect that tech 
the 5 sec interval will be taken advantage of 
Shinra tensei does not immobilize your reactions 
as kakashi proved


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> No there are three people who keep repeating the same unlikely situation where Itachi can counter Shinra Tensei.



So it would seem that only three people posting 
make actual sense when they speak


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^
Nothing you have shown makes sense,the moment you said 'Itachi wins',i stopped taking you seriously


----------



## Vergil642 (Dec 31, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> The Fanbook II (Kishi) stated the contrary though.



Oh, that new one that recently came out? Fair enough then, I shall retract such arguments.

Not that it really makes a huge difference, as it still functions in the same manner unless I'm missing something.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> kakashi seemed to react to it as well as naruto


sigh....they never countered it on there first try. nothing says itachi will, as someone with same level of intellect, if not greater was fooled and couldn't do anything against until he experienced it himself. itachi is no exception.


> Jiraiya's ultiamte resengan wasn't absorbed instantly
> susanoo is far superior in chakra compared to jiraiya's ultimate
> resengan


you have zero proof susanoo has better chakra than sage chakra.


> Bunshins have been proven to work well against pains
> shinra tensei tech


and it became effect after they experienced it. itachi will be caught off gaurd by it.


> pains absorbing body would have to absorb the Bunshin Bakuha
> with greater speed than itachi can detonate it
> which is controlled by itachi


nothing indicates he can't, he can even do it before he detonates it.


Illusory said:


> Susano may not be able to be absorbed at all.


as far as we know, it can. anything else is speculation.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^
> Nothing you have shown makes sense,the moment you said 'Itachi wins',i stopped taking you seriously



This is why numbers mean nothing in polls 
ive made plenty of statements that prove itachi would 
win 
ive even made it clear enough for paintards to understand 
multiple times 
Now your simply denying it


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^YOU HAVE MADE IT CLEAR ITACHI WINS AGAINST PAIN?LDRYOMA
HOW CAN YOU MAKE A FALSE STATEMENT CLEAR???


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

This must be why people feel Genjutsu is useful against Pein.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> sigh....they never countered it on there first try. nothing says itachi will, as someone with same level of intellect, if not greater was fooled and couldn't do anything against until he experienced it himself. itachi is no exception.
> 
> you have zero proof susanoo has better chakra than sage chakra.
> 
> ...



suggesting that itachi wont be able to counter it because naruto or kakashi couldnt is exaclty like saying itachi can do a partail susanoo simply because sasuke can
itachi is not kakashi or naruto and shouldnt be limited by their abilties 

i said susanoo is a huge mass of chakra i never said it has better chakra

itachi can detonate at any moment the absorbing body cant instantly absorb it


----------



## Black☆Star (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Munboy, actually agrees on that point if I'm not mistaken. Tsunade demonstrated a tactic to counter Pein's _Shinra Tensei_, but the _Mirror of Yata_ would obviously stop it.



Yeah, He can walk through Shinra Tensei like it's nothing,even if he can ( which i doubt)Pain can fly away with his bird summon and wait till Itachi dies



madarauchiha456 said:


> Shinra tensei doesn't immobilize his reactions
> kage bunshins can be used to counter given that itachi
> has incredible bunshin speed it will work well agianst it
> 
> ...



Yeah , Itachi is Naruto now.. he can make 1000 clones to tank Shinra Tensei


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^YOU HAVE MADE IT CLEAR ITACHI WINS AGAINST PAIN?LDRYOMA
> HOW CAN YOU MAKE A FALSE STATEMENT CLEAR???



Now this is pointless since your denying any valid points ive made 
their is no point in speaking with ignorance


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> suggesting that itachi wont be able to counter it because naruto or kakashi couldnt is exaclty like saying itachi can do a partail susanoo simply because sasuke can
> itachi is not kakashi or naruto and shouldnt be limited by their abilties
> 
> i said susanoo is a huge mass of chakra i never said it has better chakra
> ...



Yeah and the other bodies would let him do.
What u don't seem to understand is that Itachi is facing 6 bodies at once,who have great coordination.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

akkadiaN said:


> Yeah, He can walk through Shinra Tensei like it's nothing,even if he can ( which i doubt)Pain can fly away with his bird summon and wait till Itachi dies
> 
> 
> 
> Yeah , Itachi is Naruto now.. he can make 1000 clones to tank Shinra Tensei



why would he need to make 1000 when 1 would be enough 
to flank pain

where have i indicated that he would walk through it 
i said he can counter it 

That seems to be the answer for all pain fans 
pain fly's away 
but that would only prove that itachi is stronger 
since pain is avoiding a fight due to fear


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Now this is pointless since your denying any *valid* points ive made
> their is no point in speaking with ignorance



Wow, you're quite something: you're saying your arguments are valid,while the others are not,who are u??are u Kishi??


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> why would he need to make 1000 when 1 would be enough
> to flank pain
> 
> where have i indicated that he would walk through it
> ...



Stop trolling


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Yeah and the other bodies would let him do.
> What u don't seem to understand is that Itachi is facing 6 bodies at once,who have great coordination.



Ive never said they would let him 
itachi would be flanking them meaning they wouldn't notice 
itachi wouldn't allow them to fatally wound him either 


and im well aware that it wouldn't be easy 
ive stated that they would defend


----------



## Black☆Star (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> why would he need to make 1000 when 1 would be enough
> to flank pain
> 
> where have i indicated that he would walk through it
> ...



1)Tou really think a bunshin is all that is needed to take down Pain...and you call us Paintards

2)that wasn't adressed to you

3)Why not use his bird summon? it's his summon after all . he can launch missiles from the air, he can shinra tensei from the air,etc...


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> suggesting that itachi wont be able to counter it because naruto or kakashi couldnt is exaclty like saying itachi can do a partail susanoo simply because sasuke can


no. my point was that it's a manga fact that nobody has been able to counter it in there first experience in it.even a genius of itachi's level. so it's very plausible he wouldn't be able to counter it in his first try.


> itachi is not kakashi or naruto and shouldnt be limited by their abilties


fine, he doesn't have too. either way it ends it like i showed.


> i said susanoo is a huge mass of chakra i never said it has better chakra


so was ultimate rasengan.


> itachi can detonate at any moment the absorbing body cant instantly absorb it


if he's caught in bansho tennin like i showed in the panel, it gets absorbed either way. as he was in his absorption stance before naruto was even pulled with shinra tensei.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Wow, you're quite something: you're saying your arguments are valid,while the others are not,who are u??are u Kishi??



I never said that the other's weren't 
show me where i have said that at any time


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> This must be why people feel Genjutsu is useful against Pein.



 Top right panel.



Illusory said:


> Munboy, actually agrees on that point if I'm not mistaken. Tsunade demonstrated a tactic to counter Pein's _Shinra Tensei_, but the _Mirror of Yata_ would obviously stop it.



Tsunade's method wasn't that great seeing as not once did it actually cross the minds of Kakashi or Naruto, shinobi who fought the God Realm.

However as its [Shinra Tensei] not an elemental jutsu, it must be a Yin-Yang type, Yata's mirror can nullify that.



3spn4life said:


> I wouldn't call spamming it constantly, mastering exactly.



Itachi spammed as much as Sasuke.



> And also, so you're saying sasuke doesn't have tsukuyomi. I mean he's shown mangekyo genjutsu but they weren't tsukyomi, similar but not tsukuyomi. But hasn't it been stated to use susanoo you must have amaterasu AND tsukuyomi unlocked. I'm going to quote one of my favorite quotes from the series to relate to this.



He has Tsukuyomi. People for some reason say it isn't, though.



> "People live their lives bound by what they accept as correct and true. That's how they define "reality". But what does it mean to be "correct" or "true"? Merely vague concepts ... their "reality" may all be a mirage. Can we consider them to simply be living in their own world, shaped by their beliefs" - Itachi Uchiha



I'm not going to comment.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

Your arguments contradicts ours(and mine),if yours are valid,it means ours(and mine)are not.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

akkadiaN said:


> 3)Why not use his bird summon? it's his summon after all . he can launch missiles from the air, he can shinra tensei from the air,etc...



all what you said is blocked by yata's mirror.Itachi can even look for the animal realm,the caster and amaterasu his ass.Don't tell me that HGR intervenes,since when the distance is appropriate,ama immeadiately appears on the foe.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Your arguments contradicts ours(and mine),if yours are valid,it means ours(and mine)are not.



Black and white thinking is the sign of an inferior mind.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

akkadiaN said:


> 1)Tou really think a bunshin is all that is needed to take down Pain...and you call us Paintards
> 
> 2)that wasn't adressed to you
> 
> 3)Why not use his bird summon? it's his summon after all . he can launch missiles from the air, he can shinra tensei from the air,etc...



Never have i said that it can kill him but it can counter shinra tensei 
yes it can possibly kill pain given its a Bunshin Bakuha


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Black and white thinking is the sign of an inferior mind.



It's callede logic sir,it's the first thing taught when u do maths


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Never have i said that it can kill him but it can counter shinra tensei
> yes it can possibly kill pain given its a Bunshin Bakuha


 an exploding bunshin hasn't proven it's strong enough to kill pein. seriously, he's survived  harder hits.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> It's callede logic sir,it's the first thing taught when u do maths



How far did you make it in math?



Inu said:


> an exploding bunshin hasn't proven it's strong enough to kill pein. seriously, he's survived  harder hits.



Pointblank explosions can't kill Pein bodies now?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Your arguments contradicts ours(and mine),if yours are valid,it means ours(and mine)are not.



For your character your points are valid 
the points for the character im defending are valid as well 
they dont have to be agreeable to be valid points


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> an exploding bunshin hasn't proven it's strong enough to kill pein. seriously, he's survived  harder hits.



considering its a A rank jutsu it can possibly kill him


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Never have i said that it can kill him but it can counter shinra tensei
> yes it can possibly kill pain given its a Bunshin Bakuha



Exploding bunshin didn't affect Kakashi at all,and he was close to the explosion.


----------



## Eternal Pein (Dec 31, 2009)

Ill admit that summons aint gonna be enough to beat Itachi i just wonder if he used Amaterasu on the Rinnegan Dog/Wolf whatever the hell it is if when it multiplys itself will Amayerasu stop the multiplying


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> considering its a A rank jutsu i can possible kill him


pein survived an S-rank jutsu, your point?


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> How far did you make it in math?
> 
> 
> 
> Pointblank explosions can't kill Pein bodies now?



Very far actually.,i'm not a field's candidate though,i guess neither u.


----------



## Black☆Star (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Never have i said that it can kill him but it can counter shinra tensei
> yes it can possibly kill pain given its a Bunshin Bakuha


yeah right , Kakashi survived it while saving kurenai and was perfectly fine



godtachi said:


> all what you said is blocked by yata's mirror.Itachi can even look for the animal realm,the caster and amaterasu his ass.Don't tell me that HGR intervenes,since when the distance is appropriate,ama immeadiately appears on the foe.


You know it's IC so he can't use amaterasu while in sussano(he's blind)


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> no. my point was that it's a manga fact that nobody has been able to counter it in there first experience in it.even a genius of itachi's level. so it's very plausible he wouldn't be able to counter it in his first try.
> 
> fine, he doesn't have too. either way it ends it like i showed.
> 
> ...



saying that he cant counter it because another character 
who hasn't proved to be anything like him in battle cant counter it 
is speculation at its finest 

considering the size of both i can assume susanoo has a greater amount of chakra


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Very far actually. i'm not a field's candidate though,i guess neither u.



Then you should know that there is very rarely only one correct answer.


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^No,the answer is the same,the method changes.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Exploding bunshin didn't affect Kakashi at all,and he was close to the explosion.



kakashi was hidden underwater away from the explosion 
kakashi was seen dragging Kurenai underwater to escape the blast


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> pein survived an S-rank jutsu, your point?[/QUOTE
> 
> Exactly what jutsu was that


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> How far did you make it in math?
> 
> 
> 
> Pointblank explosions can't kill Pein bodies now?


he's survived hits from someone strong enough to effortlessly throw summons, a raikiri, raiton bunshins. people have survived explosions in this manga. read nagato vs. hanzou. he survived an explosion there too. and even if he was to get killed by the bunshin they can always be revived.

the best feat the bunshins have is making a big splash in water


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Hollowed Shinigami said:


> Ill admit that summons aint gonna be enough to beat Itachi i just wonder if he used Amaterasu on the Rinnegan Dog/Wolf whatever the hell it is if when it multiplys itself will Amayerasu stop the multiplying



We're told the dog multiplies as its attack. The flames attack, meaning it'll multiply. So probably it'll multiply like hell.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> saying that he cant counter it because another character
> who hasn't proved to be anything like him in battle cant counter it
> is speculation at its finest
> 
> considering the size of both i can assume susanoo has a greater amount of chakra


it may be speculation. but it isn't baseless speculation.

and it doesn't matter if susanoo is bigger. he can absorb it.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he's survived hits from someone strong enough to effortlessly throw summons, a raikiri, raiton bunshins. people have survived explosions in this manga. read nagato vs. hanzou. he survived an explosion there too. and even if he was to get killed by the bunshin they can always be revived.
> 
> the best feat the bunshins have is making a big splash in water



Pains revival jutsu isn't instant 

itachi isn't going to let him continually revive bodies 

 pain wouldn't waste chakra by reviving all his fallen bodies 
as it would waste chakra to do so and since hes fighting itachi 
it wouldn't be a smart move


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> it may be speculation. but it isn't baseless speculation.
> 
> and it doesn't matter if susanoo is bigger. he can absorb it.




whether pain can or cant absorb susanoo 
doesn't mean itachi its going to stand by 
and let him without attacking or that he can get 
close enough to do so
itachi is not naruto 
itachi is known to use his clones more skillfully


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Pains revival jutsu isn't instant


so what?


> itachi isn't going to let him continually revive bodies


like he can stop him.


> pain wouldn't waste chakra by reviving all his fallen bodies
> as it would waste chakra to do so and since hes fighting itachi
> it wouldn't be a smart move


yes it would. you can't just say he won't revive the bodies when he has done it in every fight he's had in the manga.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> whether pain can or cant absorb susanoo
> doesn't mean itachi its going to stand by
> and let him without attacking or that he can get
> close enough to do so
> ...


mine explaining how itachi stops him?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> so what?
> 
> like he can stop him.
> 
> yes it would. you can't just say he won't revive the bodies when he has done it in every fight he's had in the manga.



As i recall he wasn't continually reviving bodies 
when he was fighting naruto 

Itachi has plenty of jutsu to use to close in on him 
while he's reviving the other bodies


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> mine explaining how itachi stops him?



susanoo is a mid,close and far range jutsu meaning that its 
not impossible for itachi to seal the absorbing body while it is 
near him


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> As i recall he wasn't continually reviving bodies
> when he was fighting naruto


he still used the tech though.


> Itachi has plenty of jutsu to use to close in on him
> while he's reviving the other bodies


and what are the other bodies doing during this time? just watching itachi stop him?


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> .
> yes it would. you can't just say he won't revive the bodies when he has done it in every fight he's had in the manga.



Just as you cant assume itachi wouldn't react just because kakashi and 
naruto couldn't


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu, Itachi has a much more dangerous ability in his hands though than Naruto, which is multiplied with one or two _Karasu Bunshins_. If he witnesses the healing then he can eliminate _Naraka Path_ with _Tsukiyomi_ and from that point onward the match doesn't look hopeless considering that it's arguable that he could catch _Preta Path_ and _Deva Path_ in Genjutsu while dealing damage with _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_. Were he healthy, he could squeeze out a win.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he still used the tech though.
> 
> and what are the other bodies doing during this time? just watching itachi stop him?



No most likely distracting itachi as he did in the fight with naruto 
but it could very well be a clone 

But he didnt use it as your stating he would


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> susanoo is a mid,close and far range jutsu meaning that its
> not impossible for itachi to seal the absorbing body while it is
> near him


he can just go behind susanoo and dodge the sword attacks.and if itachi manages to seal that realm, he's basically fucked himself since the others will know to stay away from itachi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he can just go behind susanoo and dodge the sword attacks.



Pein hasn't shown the speed to pull an  on Itachi.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he can just go behind susanoo and dodge the sword attacks.and if itachi manages to seal that realm, he's basically fucked himself since the others will know to stay away from itachi.



assuming that they could stay out of its range 
its size also adds on to it's range 
avoiding it isn't as easy as you make it out to be


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he can just go behind susanoo and dodge the sword attacks.and if itachi manages to seal that realm, he's basically fucked himself since the others will know to stay away from itachi.



That body hasn't shown anything near that impressive speed to prove that it could dodge and appear behind itachi


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 you are fighting an uphill battle here.

All itachi's jutsu are useless.

Tsukuyomi? = Nagato disrupts the chakra flow and dispells it.
Amaterasu = either gets absorbed or the target is resurrected by hell realm
Susano'o = Gets absorbed as soon as that sword comes out. If he swings it thats even better since all Hungry realm has to do is be ready to absorb.

I've been looking at the last few pages of posts and you have nothing that proves Itachi can beat Pain besides speculations and irrelevant scans.

Hell realm can sit back comfortably a mile away and resurrect anyone who dies from these attacks that you seem so sure of to kill a body.

Relax *Itachi cannot beat everybody*

And I am not a Paintard I don't have a pain avatar, a pain sig or a pain username. I actually don't have a favorite character in this manga.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> he's survived hits from someone strong enough to effortlessly throw summons, a raikiri, raiton bunshins. people have survived explosions in this manga. read nagato vs. hanzou. he survived an explosion there too. and even if he was to get killed by the bunshin they can always be revived.
> 
> the best feat the bunshins have is making a big splash in water



Hanzous attack was a trap ninjutsu 
not a point blank explosion


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> Tsukuyomi? = Other pain bodies dispell it.



You can't dispel _Tsukiyomi_.



Dexion said:


> Amaterasu = either gets absorbed



If _Preta_ is as fast as Raikage to intercept _Amatarasu._



Dexion said:


> or the target is resurrected by hell realm



Hell Realm's abilities haven't shown to be anywhere near that advanced.



Dexion said:


> Susano'o = Gets absorbed as soon as that sword comes out. If he swings it thats even better since all Hungry realm has to do is be ready to absorb.



If Hungry Realm is free or that fast. He's likely neither.



Dexion said:


> Hell realm can sit back comfortably a mile away and resurrect anyone who dies



He was never shown to be capable of this either.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> madarauchiha456 you are fighting an uphill battle here.
> 
> All itachi's jutsu are useless.
> 
> ...




The sword has no physical form he cant absorb it 

Tsukuyomi wold work as itachi controls the duration of the one being affected and can even paralize the victim 

If hell realm sits around comfortably then it will be killed by itachi first 
and pain doesn't revive bodies constantly as proven in the fight with naruto 

Amaterasu appears on the victim and even so itachi's isn't going 
to direct ninjutsu towards the bodie who can absorb it 

that doesn't mean your not a pain tard 
pain tards refuse to admitt itachi could win even given proof that he would


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Where is this speculation you and others seem to cling too 
please provide evidence 

the scans provided indicated that kage bushins can counter shinra tensei 
they were no where near being irrelevant as you claim


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Inu, Itachi has a much more dangerous ability in his hands though than Naruto, which is multiplied with one or two _Karasu Bunshins_. If he witnesses the healing then he can eliminate _Naraka Path_ with _Tsukiyomi_


what can a mind torture jutsu do to a mindless, emotionless corpes?


> and from that point onward the match doesn't look hopeless considering that it's arguable that he could catch _Preta Path_ and _Deva Path_ in Genjutsu while dealing damage with _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_.


and what re the other paths like asura doing at this time?


> Were he healthy, he could squeeze out a win.


more of this healthy itachi non-sense. healthy itachi does not exist.he's a featless character, so how can you say this? while we are at it how about i talk about a healthy nagato that has all of the paths abilities as well as every jutsu jiraiya taught him. or how about he uses his elemental  as well as his gedo mazo summon that can simply seal his soul away.

and if we really want to bring out a full powered  nagato, how about we throw in some shouten clones. nagato  is out of itachi's league. he's closer to madaras level than he is to itachi.


madarauchiha456 said:


> No most likely distracting itachi as he did in the fight with naruto
> but it could very well be a clone


or it very well can be the real itachi.


> But he didnt use it as your stating he would


he will revive a realm if he really needs too.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Inu, Itachi has a much more dangerous ability in his hands though than Naruto, which is multiplied with one or two _Karasu Bunshins_. If he witnesses the healing then he can eliminate _Naraka Path_ with _Tsukiyomi_ and from that point onward the match doesn't look hopeless considering that it's arguable that he could catch _Preta Path_ and _Deva Path_ in Genjutsu while dealing damage with _Susano_ and _Amatarasu_. Were he healthy, he could squeeze out a win.



... Bee was hit with Tsukuyomi, described a normal partner method when explaining how he overcame Tsukuyomi; Pain has 5 partners. Naraka Path would be up again.

You think that the God Path won't use a Shinra Tensei soon after? Even with shared vision?

Amaterasu and Susano'o would still be absorbed...shared vision.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Where is this speculation you and others seem to cling too
> please provide evidence
> 
> *the scans provided indicated that kage bushins can counter shinra tensei *
> they were no where near being irrelevant as you claim



1000 Kage Bunshins countered Shinra Tensei; Itachi has 2.5 in stamina. I'm sure you can guess where I'm going with this.


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> You can't dispel _Tsukiyomi_


.
Sasuke has dispelled it.





> If _Preta_ is as fast as Raikage to intercept _Amatarasu._


 He probably not but thats why ---->





> Hell Realm's abilities haven't shown to be anywhere near that advanced.


He can according to the  I provided.





> If Hungry Realm is free or that fast. He's likely neither.


Susanoo is likely not that fast either.





> He was never shown to be capable of this either.


According to the  I provided earlier he can resurrect bodies.

That jutsu he uses just has to shoot life back into its target. 

A mile is a bit of an exaggeration but you get my point.

madarauchiha456, you see you need to provide scans or DB links to back up your claims or else you can't be taken seriously


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Seems like there's a general assumption that Pain will attack with only one path then will send another after one's lost. =/

Pain doesn't do that when he goes for the kill. He'll try to combine moves, remember Fukasaku said they'd do that *so they don't get separated*.

God Realm's ability as the central Pain allows this too.

Though, I think some are ignoring the starting summon spam which'll likely be followed by a Banshou Ten'in combo.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> what can a mind torture jutsu do to a mindless, emotionless corpes?



Well, if it's Negato's mind, Itachi wins. Genjutsu does work on Pein.



Inu said:


> and what re the other paths like asura doing at this time?



In the time it takes to make eye contact? I'll leave that up to you.



Inu said:


> more of this healthy itachi non-sense. healthy itachi does not exist.he's a featless character, so how can you say this?



It's beside the point, as this thread deals with a sick Itachi. 



Inu said:


> while we are at it how about i talk about a healthy nagato that has all of the paths abilities as well as every jutsu jiraiya taught him.



'Healthy' Negato is exponentially weaker. Especially to Itachi.



Inu said:


> or how about he uses his elemental  as well as his gedo mazo summon that can simply seal his soul away.



Except for non-fodder ninja who can _shunshin_ away from it.



Inu said:


> and if we really want to bring out a full powered  nagato, how about we throw in some shouten clones.



Shouten clones require a host body and meditation. It's not a battle technique.



Inu said:


> or it very well can be the real itachi.



Only if the real Itachi is the one who gave chakra and is meditating.



Inu said:


> he will revive a realm if he really needs too.



Negato would? As in the seventh path? That has to do with souls. Not puppets.


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> The sword has no physical form he cant absorb it


If it WAS physical than he couldn't absorb it but since its chakra he can. Get your facts straight.



> Tsukuyomi wold work as itachi controls the duration of the one being affected and can even paralize the victim.


 Until it gets dispelled.



> If hell realm sits around comfortably then it will be killed by itachi first
> and pain doesn't revive bodies constantly as proven in the fight with naruto


 you know what PIS is? Maybe you should  it in your spare time.



> Amaterasu appears on the victim and even so itachi's isn't going
> to direct ninjutsu towards the bodie who can absorb it


 Yeah they are most likely gonna be fried until they are resurrected.



> that doesn't mean your not a pain tard
> pain tards refuse to admitt itachi could win even given *proof* that he would



This is what you lack. You merely speculate and thats why you are losing in this debate.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> what can a mind torture jutsu do to a mindless, emotionless corpes?
> 
> and what re the other paths like asura doing at this time?
> 
> ...



tsukiyomi can be used to paralize the victim giving itach an opening 

since pain would be avoiding eye contact he would most likely not see 
Amaterasu comming towards him 

pain has shown nothing to prove he can do anything against madara 
or indicate he's near his level 
Amaterasu seemed like it worked against madara

It probably wouldnt since itachi is know to set up kage bushins 
without anyone noticing


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> 1000 Kage Bunshins countered Shinra Tensei; Itachi has 2.5 in stamina. I'm sure you can guess where I'm going with this.



Where was it shown that kakashi needed 1000 clones to counter 
shinra tensei


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

I can't see how people think that Tsukiyomi is that easily breakable:



Look at what itachi said:.And for those who thinks Sasuke broke it,do you really believe that Itachi would use his Tsukiyomi at maximum level(of pain) when he isn't sure that sasuke survived it(remember madara's words:he gave you nomore than you could handle).

Against B,It isn't even confirmed to be Tsukiyomi(i made a thread about it),so i won't discuss this issue.All i'll say is that the genjutsu sasuke used was a binding one,thus the mind-rape that Tsukiyomi always does was not there


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

The sword is not composed of chakra. Or show me evidence please.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> assuming that they could stay out of its range
> its size also adds on to it's range
> avoiding it isn't as easy as you make it out to be


they can stay out of his range. you can't prove me wrong either since they can easily get on the bird summon and fly away, out his range.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Where was it shown that kakashi needed 1000 clones to counter
> shinra tensei



=/ 

Kakashi never used Bunshins to counter Shinra Tensei. He used tactics to exploit the limit.

Naruto used 1000 Bunshins to endure the jutsu. 

Itachi cannot make 1000 Bunshins, not with a 2.5 stamina. In fact not even Jiraiya with a 5 probably could. So it must be something unique to those with insane chakra levels i.e. Naruto.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> .
> Sasuke has dispelled it.
> 
> 
> ...



you seem to be forgetting when he revived the bodies jiraiya killed he was 
right beside them 

susanoo can activate faster than kirin can attack which is a fact that it travels at 1/1000th of a second so id say thats fast enough


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> they can stay out of his range. you can't prove me wrong either since they can easily get on the bird summon and fly away, out his range.



Isn't that a stalemate? Or at least out of character? And wouldn't killing the bird with _Amatarasu_ eliminate most of the bodies including the reviving body?


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> you seem to be forgetting when he revived the bodies jiraiya killed he was
> right beside them
> 
> susanoo can activate faster than kirin can attack which is a fact that it travels at 1/1000th of a second so id say thats fast enough



He was not shown right beside the bodies to revive them, he was shown beside them when the 6 paths of pain were introduced.

I don't care if Susanoo can _Activate_ at the speed of light, that was never my argument.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> If it WAS physical than he couldn't absorb it but since its chakra he can. Get your facts straight.
> 
> Until it gets dispelled.
> 
> ...



The sword is not proven to be made of chakra 
If so then provide proof


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> The sword is not composed of chakra. Or show me evidence please.



Databook says that Susano'o is formed by the user's chakra.

The assumption that the items aren't chakra is based on the fact the assumption that those items are Itachi exclusive --- yet the databook implies all Susano'o come with those items (note Sasuke's sword and the fact that 'his shield arm' is always shown off panel).


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> .
> Sasuke has dispelled it.
> 
> 
> ...



sasuke was able to dispell it because he had the bloodline 
and he still had to enter cs2 to do so 
pain has neither


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 31, 2009)

OMG

Is madarauchiha456 a bot ?


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> sasuke was able to dispell it because he had the bloodline
> and he still had to enter cs2 to do so
> pain has neither



Heh I guess right now thats about the best you can do.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> ... Bee was hit with Tsukuyomi, described a normal partner method when explaining how he overcame Tsukuyomi; Pain has 5 partners. Naraka Path would be up again.
> 
> You think that the God Path won't use a Shinra Tensei soon after? Even with shared vision?
> 
> Amaterasu and Susano'o would still be absorbed...shared vision.



reguardless pains partners dont reside inside him 

considering he would be avoiding his eyes i doubt it would be absorbed


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Well, if it's Negato's mind, Itachi wins. Genjutsu does work on Pein.


no proof it is, since it was never proven if nagato himself was effected by frog song.and that genjutsu worked on pein because it paralyzes, not mind torture, which is pointless to a corpes.


> In the time it takes to make eye contact? I'll leave that up to you.


surely not standing around watching like many think.


> It's beside the point, as this thread deals with a sick Itachi.


then why did _you_ bring him up?


> 'Healthy' Negato is exponentially weaker. Especially to Itachi.


you're joking right.


> Except for non-fodder ninja who can _shunshin_ away from it


.
and yeah they shunshin away in the opposite direction. thats the only way itachi can escape is by running away.


> Shouten clones require a host body and meditation. It's not a battle technique.


it can be used as a battle technique. the ones who he makes the clones of can be somewhere meditating. it requires prep, but it can be used.


> Only if the real Itachi is the one who gave chakra and is meditating.


this wasn't to your post.


> Negato would? As in the seventh path? That has to do with souls. Not puppets.


neither was this.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> OMG
> 
> Is madarauchiha456 a bot ?



You noticed that too


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 31, 2009)

_While I agree that Itachi is a exceptional shinobi, I don't think he can fight against Pain. He lacks the stamina and the right tools that are required to kill him.

It's not that he's not on the same level as Pain, he's near it, but he doesn't have the ability to kill him. People who have larger moves and stamina like Naruto and Jiraiya are better suited for Pain. _


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> OMG
> 
> Is madarauchiha456 a bot ?



His posts are mainly(like 95%)in this thread.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> =/
> 
> Kakashi never used Bunshins to counter Shinra Tensei. He used tactics to exploit the limit.
> 
> ...





that could very likely happen with itachi


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 31, 2009)

_@ Godtachi and Nagatosama. Regardless of if he's a Bot or a dupe, his opinion isn't going to change the outcome much as the general concenus is that Pain is superior.

@ Madarauchiha456. It's too bad Itachi doesn't have a Raiton Bushin, eh?_


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

@Madara: So,it's not like the other bodies will let him do whatever he wants.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Isn't that a stalemate? Or at least out of character? And wouldn't killing the bird with _Amatarasu_ eliminate most of the bodies including the reviving body?


how is it a stalemate if he stays out of susanoo's range? that drains the hell out of chakra.also it isn't out of character for nagato to try to avoid attacks he knows he can't defend against, such as frog song.


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Luxiano said:


> OMG
> 
> Is madarauchiha456 a bot ?


 i thought i was the only one who noticed this.

EDIT: damn he has 152 posts in this thread


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> no proof it is, since it was never proven if nagato himself was effected by frog song.and that genjutsu worked on pein because it paralyzes, not mind torture, which is pointless to a corpes.



Orochimaru has stated Itachi can paralyze with a glance. Bad news.



Inu said:


> surely not standing around watching like many think.



Sure, but how much can you really do in the time it takes to make eye contact?



Inu said:


> then why did _you_ bring him up?



To appease people who argue that Itachi would win this match.



Inu said:


> you're joking right.



He's emaciated from chakra exhaustion. If he were "healthy," _Tsukiyomi_ trumps.



Inu said:


> and yeah they shunshin away in the opposite direction.



More evidence that Pein Rikodou is better than healthy Negato I suppose.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> _@ Godtachi and Nagatosama. Regardless of if he's a Bot or a dupe, his opinion isn't going to change the outcome much as the general concenus is that Pain is superior.
> 
> @ Madarauchiha456. It's too bad Itachi doesn't have a Raiton Bushin, eh?_



I wasn't suggesting he did 
only the fact that shinra tensei could possibly pull in a 
clone itachi


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> @Madara: So,it's not like the other bodies will let him do whatever he wants.



that statement goes for itachi as well


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Dec 31, 2009)

And how would that help him in any way?


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

^^Actually,it's a bansho Tenin,not a shinra Tensei


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Inu said:


> how is it a stalemate if he stays out of susanoo's range?



If the bird doesn't die and five Peins fall to their deaths?



Inu said:


> that drains the hell out of chakra.



He wouldn't dispel it?



Inu said:


> also it isn't out of character for nagato to try to avoid attacks he knows he can't defend against, such as frog song.



It's in character for him to sit there and take it  (joking)


----------



## Angoobo (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> that statement goes for itachi as well



Itachi has one body for god's sake.


----------



## Goobtachi (Dec 31, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> _@ Godtachi and Nagatosama. Regardless of if he's a Bot or a dupe, his opinion isn't going to change the outcome much as the general concenus is that Pain is superior.
> 
> @ Madarauchiha456. It's too bad Itachi doesn't have a Raiton Bushin, eh?_



He still has exploding bunshin,and he can make them without the others noticing it,which can be very troublesome if they hit the foe at close range.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Atlantic Storm said:


> And how would that help him in any way?



It would help avoid being pulled in 
and create a opening


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> Itachi has one body for god's sake.



i was referring to itachi not standing around helplessly


----------



## ? (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory, you agree with my main point so i'm going to stop now.

i'm done here, but a last word, and the obvious:

nagato>itachi.

peace, i'm out


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Nagatosama said:


> ^^Actually,it's a bansho Tenin,not a shinra Tensei



It was still countered by a bunshin something 
itachi is known for using


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

I agree that Pein wins, but not easily. The people who see it as easy, well:



Believe Itachi loses with Kisame's chakra, Raikage's speed, etc.


----------



## God (Dec 31, 2009)

Pein - 74
Itachi - 27

hmmm

genjutsu gets beat by pein's chakra fuckery

amaterasu gets swallowed, or outsped

susano'o gets swallowed, or chibaku tensei'd

itachi gets stabbed up 6 ways

/thread


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Its pointless to continue ive made my point 
Itachi would without a doubt come out victorious 
ive gave facts to prove so whether or not all were backed up with scans 
they were all facts 
feel free to do research on anything i posted 
paintards simply cant hold a logical debate


----------



## Dexion (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Its pointless to continue ive made my point
> Itachi would without a doubt come out victorious
> ive gave facts to prove so whether or not all were backed up with scans
> they were all facts
> ...



Only in your own little world. You pretty much got shut down in everything you said. Ignorance is bliss i guess.


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Dexion said:


> Only in your own little world. You pretty much got shut down in everything you said. Ignorance is bliss i guess.



And stupidity is hazardous


----------



## Luxiano (Dec 31, 2009)

the bot madarauchiha456 , reminds  me alchemy1234 for some reasons


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> that could very likely happen with itachi



Itachi doesn't have Rai Kage Bunshins...


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

What are you implying by calling me a bot


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi doesn't have Rai Kage Bunshins...



Is that really the only way for itachi to counter it with that 
specific clone jutsu 

But as i said before im not debating on this anymore
pain tards simply cant hold logical arguments


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Is that really the only way for itachi to counter it with that
> specific clone jutsu
> 
> But as i said before im not debating on this anymore
> pain tards simply cant hold logical arguments



You posted a page with a Rai Kage Bunshin saying that applies to Itachi...


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Im going to quote myself 



Originally Posted by Atlantic Storm  
@ Godtachi and Nagatosama. Regardless of if he's a Bot or a dupe, his opinion isn't going to change the outcome much as the general concenus is that Pain is superior.

@ Madarauchiha456. It's too bad Itachi doesn't have a Raiton Bushin, eh? 




I wasn't suggesting he did 
only the fact that shinra tensei could possibly pull in a 
clone itachi


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Im going to quote myself
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And what? He's not exactly going to stop Pain in his tracks like how a Rai Kage Bunshin did. If he's being blinded he'll get out of there; remember he avoided Bunta while there was a dust cloud.


----------



## Mongolia (Dec 31, 2009)

Michael Jacksőn said:


> Pein - 74
> Itachi - 27
> 
> hmmm
> ...



Explain this more directly? I mean Itachi is actually the greatest genjutsu user in the manga plus his genjutsu would probably also hit Nagato's main body because Genjutsu injects chakra into someone's mind.



Michael Jacksőn said:


> amaterasu gets swallowed, or outsped



Itachi wouldn't probably pointlessly spawn amaterasu [*cough* Sasugay] in fact Itachi is one of the smartest nin's in the manga so the timing and executations of his techniques very exact. Also I don't see how Itachi can't get too Naruto's level of intelligence because Naruto actually "figured out" Pains power then how long would Itachi need for this?



Michael Jacksőn said:


> susano'o gets swallowed, or chibaku tensei'd



It's said that Susano'o combined with the 2 spiritual items gain Itachi total invincibility. In fact, it actually blocked 2 S-ranked techniques while been used by an exhausted and dying user. So how the hell would Susano'o be swallowed? Susano'o is supposed to be the "God of the Storm" and is no physical attack. Chibaku Tensei? you're kidding right. Chibaku tensei is merely a bit of earth surrounding Itachi and wrapping him though I still don't see how this "earth" could break through a defence that an instant lighning attack referred as an S-ranked techniqe couldn't break through this.



Michael Jacksőn said:


> itachi gets stabbed up 6 ways
> 
> Itachi can split himself up into 6? He has much more abbilities then the MS and so are we about to see the next chapter. =]
> 
> /thread


----------



## madarauchiha456 (Dec 31, 2009)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And what? He's not exactly going to stop Pain in his tracks like how a Rai Kage Bunshin did. If he's being blinded he'll get out of there; remember he avoided Bunta while there was a dust cloud.



Itachi doesn't only have crow clones to blind 
i'll let you figure out the possible options itachi 
has for countering shinra tensei 

Im done with this debate ive said what i needed to say 
and proved itachi could win and would win 
but with extreme difficulty

If you ask how he could win just look back at what ive posted


----------



## David (Dec 31, 2009)

YataNoKagami said:


> Explain this more directly? I mean Itachi is actually the greatest genjutsu user in the manga plus his genjutsu would probably also hit Nagato's main body because Genjutsu injects chakra into someone's mind.



There are numerous reasons why Nagato has excellent Genjutsu defense.

(1) He constantly changes the chakra frequency in each Pain body, and has the ability to completely stop the chakra flow in each body, or to boost it up with even more chakra.  Moreover, Nagato has some of (if not the best) chakra control in the manga, being able to control 6 bodies at once with extreme coordination, along with summons.

As for why he didn't do this against Jiraiya - probably because he knew he could get in a sneak attack, and that he could just revive the bodies.

(2) Nagato himself is no slacker in Genjutsu.  Inoichi (Ino's father), one of the top interrogators/mind-readers in Konoha, with all of his machinery, took over a week to get through to Nagato's _henchmen's_ mind.  Now that's just one of his mere henchmen.  Imagine how great Pain's Genjutsu defense is.

Note: the reason why the Elders' Genjutsu worked is because:

(2a) It's a duet (possibly twice the power).
(2b) They're multi-hundred year old sages who have excellent chakra control.
(2c) It requires a crapload of Sage Chakra (see when Deva kills Fukusaku).
(2d) It's likely they're ultimate Genjutsu tech.

Basically, the Genjutsu they used against Pain was perhaps the strongest one we've seen in the series, with the possible exception of Tsukiyomi.

(3) Contrary to the popular Uchiha fandom belief, shared vision _does not_ mean all the Pain bodies will get caught by Sharingan Genjutsu if one looks a Uchiha in the eye because:

Even though Sharingan Genjutsu works through connection of the eyes (eye contact is required for it to work), _the Genjutsu itself_ works by channeling one's own chakra into the victim's (in this case, a Pain body's) cranial nerves, and manipulating his/her chakra.

Since "Pain," Nagato's 6 bodies, have 6 seperate cranial nervous systems, if one Pain body is affected by Genjutsu, the others will only see what the eyes see, and not what's going on the that single body's brain _(say 1 Deva Realm is watching some movie at a theatre and a Uchiha successfully Genjutsus him - though Deva himself will be caught up in a Genjutsu [because the Uchiha fucked up his brain), the other bodies, no matter where they are, will still be able to watch the movie)_.

Mind-link doesn't make all the Pain bodies susceptible to Genjutsu if one's in (Genjutsu) danger for the same reason that not all 6 bodies were affected when Ma and Pa used Frog Song.

(4) Last and least, one can simply speculate that the Rinnegan, being the "supreme" Doujutsu bestowed to only one person (Nagato) after several centuries, grants one some prowess in Genjutsu.



> Itachi wouldn't probably pointlessly spawn amaterasu [*cough* Sasugay] in fact Itachi is one of the smartest nin's in the manga so the timing and executations of his techniques very exact. Also I don't see how Itachi can't get too Naruto's level of intelligence because Naruto actually "figured out" Pains power then how long would Itachi need for this?



Naruto had Katsuyu feeding him information the whole time.

The same information that Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Shizune gave up their lives for.

Shows how important prior knowledge can be .

As for Ameratsu, he might use it.  We're all just speculating, so we really can't say.

IMO, he'd be hard-pressed though to fight the 6 Paths without 1 of his 3 most powerful techs.



> It's said that Susano'o combined with the 2 spiritual items gain Itachi total invincibility. In fact, it actually blocked 2 S-ranked techniques while been used by an exhausted and dying user. So how the hell would Susano'o be swallowed? Susano'o is supposed to be the "God of the Storm" and is no physical attack. Chibaku Tensei? you're kidding right. Chibaku tensei is merely a bit of earth surrounding Itachi and wrapping him though I still don't see how this "earth" could break through a defence that an instant lighning attack referred as an S-ranked techniqe couldn't break through this.



.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Imagine how great Pain's Genjutsu defense is.



 great.



Daviddd said:


> (1) It's a duet (possibly twice the power).



Hahahahaha


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Thanks for posting though, David, I just agreed with most of it.


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## David (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Hahahahaha



Oh yes, clearly that speculation is crazier than the bullcrap fandom tardation that healthy Itachi is god.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Oh yes, clearly that speculation is crazier than the bullcrap fandom tardation that healthy Itachi is god.



Hahahaha, wait, wait! Itachi has _TWO EYES_ for _TWICE_ the power!



Daviddd said:


> .



The aura blocked an entire storm's worth of electricity. Calculate that.


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## David (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> If Negato considers himself "god" then not really.


Well, if he's not a "god," then bar Rikudou Sennin, he's by far the closest to being one in the manga. 

The dude brought people back to life.  But I'll stop here, as it's starting to get off-topic.



> The aura blocked an entire storm's worth of electricity. Calculate that.



Didn't it break a mountain?



> Hahahaha, wait, wait! Itachi has _TWO EYES_ for _TWICE_ the power!


He normally uses 2 eyes for Genjutsu, with the possible exception of when he casts Tsukiyomi (isn't one eye "Genjutsu" [Tsukiyomi], the other eye "Ninjutsu" [Ameratsu], and both eyes simply "Susano'o"?).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> great.



Pages ago I provided a scan where the casters counted on Pain underestimating it.

Even more so I referenced Pain's mastery of the mainstream Ninjutsu -- the 'kai' seal is part of the mainstream Ninjutsu.

And he's got the partner issue sorted.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Well, if he's not a "god," then bar Rikudou Sennin, he's by far the closest to being one in the manga.



Not really. The _Kyubi_ seemed to be more than a match for him. 



Daviddd said:


> Didn't it break a mountain?



I really can't . Nevermind, it would seem it  it.


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## David (Dec 31, 2009)

Illusory said:


> Not really. The _Kyubi_ seemed to be more than a match for him.



Especially when he was already weakened from blowing up Konoha and beating naruto twice, amiright?

Whatever the case, the Kyuubi's top tier.  Just the fact that Nagato can compete with it with his own raw power shows how broken he is.

And, whatever the case, losing to the Kyuubi doesn't cancel out the fact that he brought people back to life.



> I really can't . Nevermind, it would seem it  it.



 It destroyed a moutain!

_When Nagato was already low on chakra._

And if you look closely, "20" is an obvious understatement.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

Daviddd said:


> Especially when he was already weakened from blowing up Konoha and beating naruto twice, amiright?



And the Kyubi has half of its original chakra and was only at eight tails, yes.



Daviddd said:


> Just the fact that Nagato can compete with it with his own raw power shows how broken he is.



Kisame, Itachi, Deidara, Gaara, and a few others have comparable raw power.



Daviddd said:


> And, whatever the case, losing to the Kyuubi doesn't cancel out the fact that he brought people back to life.



Chiyo did it first.



Daviddd said:


> And if you look closely, "20" is an obvious understatement.



I repeat. Its *aura* blocked a mountain shattering force.


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## Sadgoob (Dec 31, 2009)

> Unless Mount Everest weighs more than 357x as much as Mount Wyncheproof (which seems very unlikely to me)



140 feet to 29,000 feet high and you can't believe it?


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## David (Dec 31, 2009)

*Spoiler*: _Off-topic_ 





Illusory said:


> And the Kyubi has half of its original chakra and was only at eight tails, yes.


I'd go on about all the ridiculous things Nagato did before his attempted seal, but this obviously isn't going to end unless one of of stops, so I'll do that now.

I admit, though, that based on speculation, the Kyuubi might've had more raw power.  

Please don't reply to this part, as we've gone off-topic enough.



> Kisame, Itachi, Deidara, Gaara, and a few others have comparable raw power.



I disagree.

This is all off-topic.  Perhaps we can take this elsewhere, or just dump it.



> Chiyo did it first.


If you can't see the difference, you're an idiot.





> I repeat. Its *aura* blocked a mountain shattering force.



This is speculation.

From the looks of it, Itachi activated Susano'o twice in his fight with Sasuke - once when Kirin hit, and once to finish off the fight.

He wouldn've have needed to if Susano'o wasn't "injured" by the attack.

And the fact that his Susano'o even has Yata's mirror shows that it's not a perfect defense.

This was actually a big topic of discussion in the thread you quoted.

I suggest you read it.


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## God (Dec 31, 2009)

i take it i won since no one countered my points

another victory in the name of Pein


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## David (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> 140 feet to 29,000 feet high and you can't believe it?



8848/47 = 188.

188 < 357.

I could go into detail of volume vs. height of a mountain, but let's not get into it.

After reading my thread, you still believe that Susano'o would protect Itachi from a multi-mountain buster, and I believe it wouldn't.

I don't see either of us changing our points of view on this.  Let's just stop.

MJ - actually, he did.  I just answered for you .


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## Winchester Gospel (Jan 1, 2010)

Illusory said:


> I repeat. Its *aura* blocked a mountain shattering force.



Maybe it didn't appear cause Kishi wanted us to think like Sasuke and, you know, actually think Itachi was dead? Why spoil the surprise by just showing fully-formed Susano'o on top of his "dead" body? 

The most plausible explanation, but Uchiha fans will deny it to the end.


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## LegendaryBeauty (Jan 1, 2010)

This was opened 2-3 days ago, and it's already got over 600 responses?

Looks to me that Itachi and Pain are overrated. 

*sigh* I haven't debated heavily and intently in a while. Perhaps a thread as active as this will change that. 

I'm actually leaning towards Pain on this one. Multiple paths, gravitational abilities, chakra absorption? Seems like he's got the upper hand.

On the other hand, Itachi has Susanoo and Amaterasu, which could deal with Pain's bodies. Though I'd assume that, just like anything else, the damage would be repaired by the path that revives them...Hell Realm, IIRC? 

So I'm going towards the bastard who essentially solo'd two of the Sannin (even though one was by indirect methods).


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## Dexion (Jan 1, 2010)

Pain was plagued hard with PIS. He has much more potential than he let on. The only reason Naruto even beat him is because of God realm's CST drawback. Oh and tons of PIS.


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## tavrean (Jan 1, 2010)

madarauchiha456 said:


> Itachi was only shown to close his eyes once during the entire anime
> he was more than capable of casting tsukiyomi on young sauske on more than one occasion without shutting his eyes



theres a few times he doest it without but he does close his eyes more than once. 
in the flash back when he tsukis sauske for the first time
first time he tsukis kakashi
when he tsukis sauke in the hotel hallway 
when he amarets out of the toads mouth jutsu
every time prior to using ameret during final saus fight
he still has eye closed when susanoo starts to take form
 and even kakshi did it when he and naruto were chasin deidara



YataNoKagami said:


> Itachi wins.
> 
> Pain has shown weaknesses against genjutsu users. And as we all know Itachi is the greatest genjutsu user the the manga.
> 
> ...



Since when has Pein shown a weakness to genjutsu users????? previously all we known was that hes never lost a battle. and the fact that he got traped in the frog song is not showing a weakness to all genjutsu users. he didnt expect jiraiya to have that in his arsenal due to the fact he knew jaraiya wasnt a genjutsu user. but against itachi whom he knows to have the sharingan and what its capable of and who hes probably wacthed footage from zetsu on several times will/should most likley be on his gaurd for any genjutsu trickery

Well if itachi was all that hot shit, why didnt he go ahead and capture naruto sooooooo long ago. he had kisame with him and didnt want to trade blows with Jiraiya? Y??? 2 on one shouldnt have been too hard, especially if he is this so called god of the narutoverse. and we see wut pein did to jiraiya. 
But im actually a big fan of Itachi but this battle wasnt made for him
ganjutsu is pretty much null and void
bringing out susanoo and overusage of those high lvl jutsus is just killin him softly.
nobodys unbeatable. pein is just one of those few ppl better equiped to handle itachi.


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Bansho tennin+whatever combo =exploding bunshin at close range knocks the body down.

Shinra tensei :a jutsu(where chakra is used),thus countered with partial susano'o(which itachi used to counter Kirin,anyone who thinks susano'o had yata mirror at this time is clearly trolling,since yata mirror would counter this jutsu like it's nothing).

summon spamming:evaded by itachi's superior speed,swiftness...If Deva could evade 3 boss summons,Itachi easily can do better and when he closes the distance with animal realm,he uses ama which can't be countered by HGR(the flames appear immediately at close range).....


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## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Bansho tennin+whatever combo =exploding bunshin at close range knocks the body down.
> 
> Shinra tensei :a jutsu(where chakra is used),thus countered with partial susano'o(*which itachi used to counter Kirin,anyone who thinks susano'o had yata mirror at this time is clearly trolling,since yata mirror would counter this jutsu like it's nothing*).
> 
> summon spamming:evaded by itachi's superior speed,swiftness...If Deva could evade 3 boss summons,Itachi easily can do better and when he closes the distance with animal realm,he uses ama which can't be countered by HGR(the flames appear immediately at close range).....



Cool fanfic,try again.
PS: you're the one trolling


----------



## Panos (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Cool fanfic,try again.
> PS: you're the one trolling



Its not fanfic. Read the manga and you will notice that Susanoo was not completely formed yet.


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## Girl I don't care (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Bansho tennin+whatever combo =exploding bunshin at close range knocks the body down.
> 
> Shinra tensei :a jutsu(where chakra is used),thus countered with partial susano'o(which itachi used to counter Kirin,anyone who thinks susano'o had yata mirror at this time is clearly trolling,since yata mirror would counter this jutsu like it's nothing).
> 
> *summon spamming:evaded by itachi's superior speed,swiftness...If Deva could evade 3 boss summons,Itachi easily can do better and *when he closes the distance with animal realm,he uses ama which can't be countered by HGR(the flames appear immediately at close range).....



come again?


----------



## Vergil642 (Jan 1, 2010)

Panda人 said:


> come again?



At best you might argue Deva's on par with Itachi in terms of evasive ability. If Deva can evade giant summons and run over them, then Kakashi, Sasuke, Itachi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and more can do so too.



Daviddd said:


> There are numerous reasons why Nagato has excellent Genjutsu defense.
> 
> (1) He constantly changes the chakra frequency in each Pain body, and has the ability to completely stop the chakra flow in each body, or to boost it up with even more chakra.  Moreover, Nagato has some of (if not the best) chakra control in the manga, being able to control 6 bodies at once with extreme coordination, along with summons.



Speculation. Nagato's never shown he disrupts his Pain Realm's chakra flows at all.



> As for why he didn't do this against Jiraiya - probably because he knew he could get in a sneak attack, and that he could just revive the bodies.



Or, having no feats that indicate he could break out, and outright stopping it happening the second time because he couldn't break out, indicates he hey, I dunno, couldn't break out.



> (2) Nagato himself is no slacker in Genjutsu.  Inoichi (Ino's father), one of the top interrogators/mind-readers in Konoha, with all of his machinery, took over a week to get through to Nagato's _henchmen's_ mind.  Now that's just one of his mere henchmen.  Imagine how great Pain's Genjutsu defense is.



As people tell the Itachi fans all the time, skill at Genjutsu=/=skill at breaking it 

And we don't know it took Inoichi a week to get through. From the looks of things it was an afternoon at best. And why would Pain have any Genjutsu defence? They're mindless and when not animated by Nagato, simple corpses. If the bodies get captured, they have no information to give. Captured fodder-nin however, clearly do have some info, hence a need to protect the info in their brains.



> Note: the reason why the Elders' Genjutsu worked is because:
> 
> (2a) It's a duet (possibly twice the power).
> (2b) They're multi-hundred year old sages who have excellent chakra control.
> ...



2a: Or, if we're looking at this logically, it doesn't, as it requires a duet to use anyway. Take one of Ni Dai Sennin away and it doesn't work.
2b: Super, doesn't mean they're as good as Itachi at Genjutsu.
2c: Fair point.
2d: Or, having seen Tsukuyomi, we know it isn't.



> (3) Contrary to the popular Uchiha fandom belief, shared vision _does not_ mean all the Pain bodies will get caught by Sharingan Genjutsu if one looks a Uchiha in the eye because:
> 
> Even though Sharingan Genjutsu works through connection of the eyes (eye contact is required for it to work), _the Genjutsu itself_ works by channeling one's own chakra into the victim's (in this case, a Pain body's) cranial nerves, and manipulating his/her chakra.
> 
> ...



I have no problems with this. It's complete speculation to say that Genjutsuing one Pain=Genjutsuing all of them and Nagato too no matter how much we might like this to be the case. You need to Genjutsu Nagato to render the Pains useless. 



> (4) Last and least, one can simply speculate that the Rinnegan, being the "supreme" Doujutsu bestowed to only one person (Nagato) after several centuries, grants one some prowess in Genjutsu.



This is just as speculative as saying Itachi can Genjutsu one Pain and catch every single other one plus Nagato by proxy. The Rinnegan's ability is to give you unlimited potential to do anything. Nagato has used that extensively in Ninjutsu, but not shown any great Genjutsu feats mid battle, or any great Genjutsu breaking feats mid battle.



> Naruto had Katsuyu feeding him information the whole time.
> 
> The same information that Jiraiya, Kakashi, and Shizune gave up their lives for.
> 
> Shows how important prior knowledge can be .



Except Jiraiya figured out most of it mid battle, even the fact that Nagato wasn't with them.

And Itachi's smarter than Jiraiya and more than capable of surviving (with a lot of difficulty) long enough to figure this out and kill some, potentially all, bodies.



> As for Ameratsu, he might use it.  We're all just speculating, so we really can't say.
> 
> IMO, he'd be hard-pressed though to fight the 6 Paths without 1 of his 3 most powerful techs.



So you're agreeing he'd use Amaterasu? Good, why wouldn't he use his strongest attack Ninjutsu? It's like saying Deva might not use Shinra Tensei.



> .



All requiring Deva to be alive to channel it. Amaterasu deals with Deva, in turn breaking the jutsu.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> At best you might argue Deva's on par with Itachi in terms of evasive ability. If Deva can evade giant summons and run over them, then Kakashi, Sasuke, Itachi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya and more can do so too.



Canonically Deva Realm has done quite a lot in the time span of five seconds.



> As people tell the Itachi fans all the time, skill at Genjutsu=/=skill at breaking it



Right, the jutsu 'Kai' is a Ninjutsu; guess how Nagato is with that.



> And we don't know it took Inoichi a week to get through. From the looks of things it was an afternoon at best.



Hard to calculate panels unless the manga tells us the specs.



> 2a: Or, if we're looking at this logically, it doesn't, as it requires a duet to use anyway. Take one of Ni Dai Sennin away and it doesn't work.
> 2b: Super, doesn't mean they're as good as Itachi at Genjutsu.
> 2c: Fair point.
> 2d: Or, having seen Tsukuyomi, we know it isn't.



They're Genjutsu have a completely different purpose to all the one's Itachi's shown, though.



> This is just as speculative as saying Itachi can Genjutsu one Pain and catch every single other one plus Nagato by proxy. The Rinnegan's ability is to give you unlimited potential to do anything. Nagato has used that extensively in Ninjutsu, but not shown any great Genjutsu feats mid battle, or any great Genjutsu breaking feats mid battle.



However the fact that Pain Rikudou is well 6 bodies must indicate that he has considered the possibility of Genjutsu; partner method.

Plus we've seen Pain is capable of the basic Ninjutsu; 'kai' is part of the mainstream Ninjutsu.



> Except Jiraiya figured out most of it mid battle, even the fact that Nagato wasn't with them.
> 
> And Itachi's smarter than Jiraiya and more than capable of surviving (with a lot of difficulty) long enough to figure this out and kill some, potentially all, bodies.



Jiraiya figured it out as he actually knew Nagato.



> All requiring Deva to be alive to channel it. Amaterasu deals with Deva, in turn breaking the jutsu.



What if Preta Realm is there? We were never told that all Pain Realms need to be disabled for Chibaki Tensei; in fact the mini databook a while back never said that either.


----------



## Vergil642 (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Canonically Deva Realm has done quite a lot in the time span of five seconds.



Which, when we look at other characters, just goes to show how terrible that limit is.

Preskip Gated Lee was doing lots in five seconds. We have characters faster than that now. Kishi's sense of speed seems to be horribly skewed.



> Right, the jutsu 'Kai' is a Ninjutsu; guess how Nagato is with that.



Gonna have to show me him brekaing out of a Genjutsu used by someone worthwhile.



> Hard to calculate panels unless the manga tells us the specs.



That's why I tend to distrust calculations. Besides, we only saw Inoichi and pals probing that fodder's mind for a short time. It may be that there were big gaps between, but I'm pretty sure we saw nothing to indicate it was that long a time.

Maybe he's just used to probing minds in five seconds or something, so he's surprised it's taking so long.



> They're Genjutsu have a completely different purpose to all the one's Itachi's shown, though.



Except Kasegui no Jutsu, which paralyses you.



> However the fact that Pain Rikudou is well 6 bodies must indicate that he has considered the possibility of Genjutsu; partner method.
> 
> Plus we've seen Pain is capable of the basic Ninjutsu; 'kai' is part of the mainstream Ninjutsu.



Yup. Although this implies to me that you've not read my long post where I mentioned this. A summary of it would be using the partner method basically means Pain's ability to attack takes a bit of a hit (always very good for the opponent considering how high that attack power is) or sometimes a huge hit (depending on bodies Genjutsu'd). This means odds of Itachi's survival spikes whenever he paralyses a body or two, and the survival of Pain's bodies can in turn drop surprisingly far. But, as I said in the long post, this also depends on proximity of Pain body to Itachi/KB and the Pain bodies under Genjutsu.



> Jiraiya figured it out as he actually knew Nagato.



I'm willing to bet anyone like Itachi, a Sannin or whatever is going to figure out that you don't get six people with the Rinnegan and that even if you did, the fact they all use a very limited number of jutsu means something's up.

But on a more basic level, it won't be that hard to figure out things like they share vision and they have limited movesets.



> What if Preta Realm is there? We were never told that all Pain Realms need to be disabled for Chibaki Tensei; in fact the mini databook a while back never said that either.



They need to be the hell out of it's AoE. And even if Hungry Ghost is there, he can't move fast enough to block LoS between Itachi and Deva before Amaterasu appears on Deva.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Which, when we look at other characters, just goes to show how terrible that limit is.



We've barely seen a calculation for what other characters can do in such a short time, in panel.



> Preskip Gated Lee was doing lots in five seconds. We have characters faster than that now. Kishi's sense of speed seems to be horribly skewed.



But we can't assume what X can do in 5 secs now unless we've got a manga calculation. 



> Gonna have to show me him brekaing out of a Genjutsu used by someone worthwhile.



Well, to be fair pages back I provided a scan showing that the Genjutsu was meant to be underestimated.

Plus thinking about it...we've seen Pain use basic Ninjutsu, twice...is it a stretch to believe he'd have 'kai' one of the most basic of the basic Ninjutsu?

Won't work for the likes of Tsukuyomi, but the lesser ones no doubt.



> That's why I tend to distrust calculations. Besides, we only saw Inoichi and pals probing that fodder's mind for a short time. It may be that there were big gaps between, but I'm pretty sure we saw nothing to indicate it was that long a time.
> 
> Maybe he's just used to probing minds in five seconds or something, so he's surprised it's taking so long.



But we don't know the specs like we do with Lee/Naruto/God Realm.



> Except Kasegui no Jutsu, which paralyses you.



Doesn't prevent one from moving altogether like Jiraiya's; Orochimaru was moving his arms to form the 'kai' seal.



> Yup. Although this implies to me that you've not read my long post where I mentioned this. A summary of it would be using the partner method basically means Pain's ability to attack takes a bit of a hit (always very good for the opponent considering how high that attack power is) or sometimes a huge hit (depending on bodies Genjutsu'd). This means odds of Itachi's survival spikes whenever he paralyses a body or two, and the survival of Pain's bodies can in turn drop surprisingly far. But, as I said in the long post, this also depends on proximity of Pain body to Itachi/KB and the Pain bodies under Genjutsu.



There is God Pain's ability. He could simply repel Itachi away while other snaps him out. 
I read all of it, actually.

Also as you mention it depends on the body hit. Though, with shared vision and particular bodies that should work fine.



> I'm willing to bet anyone like Itachi, a Sannin or whatever is going to figure out that you don't get six people with the Rinnegan and that even if you did, the fact they all use a very limited number of jutsu means something's up.
> 
> But on a more basic level, it won't be that hard to figure out things like they share vision and they have limited movesets.



However, that battle emphasised that Jiraiya only had those thoughts about the real one *only* because he knew Nagato; as far as we know Itachi never knew Nagato existed.



> They need to be the hell out of it's AoE. And even if Hungry Ghost is there, he can't move fast enough to block LoS between Itachi and Deva before Amaterasu appears on Deva.



Pain normally sticks together, plus the rest of the Realms could simply stand by God Realm, whose unaffected by the formation of Chibaki Tensei. Where they can effectively defend the body if needed.


----------



## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

Im' really impressed there are 28 people who think Itachi would win


----------



## Katana King (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Im' really impressed there are 28 people who think Itachi would win



Sooo true


----------



## Vergil642 (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> We've barely seen a calculation for what other characters can do in such a short time, in panel.



We know what Lee can do. So does that mean Lee would kill Deva if he survived Shinra Tensei?



> But we can't assume what X can do in 5 secs now unless we've got a manga calculation.



See the above. Unless we agree Gated Preskip Lee is at the top of Narutoverses speed, it's pretty clear that the five second cooldown is a glaring problem. In turn, it helps the argument that calculations are unreliable and should be used as supplementary evidence rather than primary.



> Well, to be fair pages back I provided a scan showing that the Genjutsu was meant to be underestimated.
> 
> Plus thinking about it...we've seen Pain use basic Ninjutsu, twice...is it a stretch to believe he'd have 'kai' one of the most basic of the basic Ninjutsu?
> 
> Won't work for the likes of Tsukuyomi, but the lesser ones no doubt.



So then we know Pain is more than capable of underestimating Genjutsu.

And you have to have enough skill with Kai to escape Itachi's Genjutsu. Pain's not shown that.



> But we don't know the specs like we do with Lee/Naruto/God Realm.



Nevertheless, it's a big stretch to say they've been working on the guy for a week.



> Doesn't prevent one from moving altogether like Jiraiya's; Orochimaru was moving his arms to form the 'kai' seal.



And we don't know if he could actually have escaped. Putting up some resistance isn't the same as resisting it entirely. What's more, we know that Itachi can move while someone's in Kasegui no Jutsu. The best a Pain body could do is escape on it's own after a while, but not before Itachi can kill it. Regardless, holding a Pain still for awhile is always going to be helpful for obvious reasons.



> There is God Pain's ability. He could simply repel Itachi away while other snaps him out.
> I read all of it, actually.
> 
> Also as you mention it depends on the body hit. Though, with shared vision and particular bodies that should work fine.



And him being paralysed and unable to do anything means he can't use his jutsu.

And thanks for reading it all, I suspected people would just see that and ignore it.



> However, that battle emphasised that Jiraiya only had those thoughts about the real one *only* because he knew Nagato; as far as we know Itachi never knew Nagato existed.



Yeah, I agree to an extent, that's why I shied away from that in my last response. I believe Itachi will figure out something isn't right with them, but can't argue that he would figure out someone's controlling them. I wouldn't be surprised if he did, he seemed to know everything anyway, but he hasn't shown enough that I can make a real argument on it.



> Pain normally sticks together, plus the rest of the Realms could simply stand by God Realm, whose unaffected by the formation of Chibaki Tensei. Where they can effectively defend the body if needed.



Deva's not unaffected by it. He was outside it's AoE. You can see it . The big dust cloud in front of him is where Chibaku Tensei just landed.

Also, I'm nearly done on getting those scans and explanations you asked for 

Hope you've got some too


----------



## tavrean (Jan 1, 2010)

i see a lot of comments that say itachi has a counter for all of peins moves, but tell me this. can he counter all of those things simultaneously, and for how long. if each body of pein did a technique in unison or directly after the other, do you think he can manage that. 
if hes getting shinra tensi'd while having the rockets/lasers blasted at him, wile a summon is comming for that ass, while another body is attempting cqc, ect..... thats a lot to deal with at once.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> We know what Lee can do. So does that mean Lee would kill Deva if he survived Shinra Tensei?



Lee's fighting style revolved around speed. He probably could be one of the few that could take the God Realm. Mind you the God Realm's no push over (note it took SM to stomp him all the time).



> Unless we agree Gated Preskip Lee is at the top of Narutoverses speed, it's pretty clear that the five second cooldown is a glaring problem. In turn, it helps the argument that calculations are unreliable and should be used as supplementary evidence rather than primary.



In manga calculations aren't as unreliable. However, custom ones can be.



> So then we know Pain is more than capable of underestimating Genjutsu.



Ah, but in that page it says "as Jiraiya's pupil he should know Jiraiya doesn't use Genjutsu"; yes he's capable of underestimating if he believes the person is shit at Genjutsu.



> And you have to have enough skill with Kai to escape Itachi's Genjutsu. Pain's not shown that.



Nagato's mastered the mainstream jutsu; Pain can use some of the mainstream jutsu such as Shunshin, we're told he has the master. 

We're told Itachi was quite fast, yet we don't dispute that. Likewise we shouldn't dispute Nagato's mastery. 



> Nevertheless, it's a big stretch to say they've been working on the guy for a week.



What I'm basically saying is we shouldn't debunk a in-manga calculation. Plus logically Pain would have to be fast to make up for his 5 sec limit.



> And we don't know if he could actually have escaped. Putting up some resistance isn't the same as resisting it entirely. What's more, we know that Itachi can move while someone's in Kasegui no Jutsu. The best a Pain body could do is escape on it's own after a while, but not before Itachi can kill it. Regardless, holding a Pain still for awhile is always going to be helpful for obvious reasons.



True. But would Itachi cast Genjutsu against an opponent who normally sticks with the crew?



> And him being paralysed and unable to do anything means he can't use his jutsu.



Orochimaru was about to, though. Pain will have some back up to ensure he's not attacked, or God Realm could simply use Shinra Tensei (a powerful one if he activates the Rinnegan; where the pupil dilates).



> And thanks for reading it all, I suspected people would just see that and ignore it.







> Yeah, I agree to an extent, that's why I shied away from that in my last response. I believe Itachi will figure out something isn't right with them, but can't argue that he would figure out someone's controlling them. I wouldn't be surprised if he did, he seemed to know everything anyway, but he hasn't shown enough that I can make a real argument on it.



True. But personally I doubt anyone would've every figured out the secret unless they knew Nagato personally.



> Deva's not unaffected by it. He was outside it's AoE. You can see it . The big dust cloud in front of him is where Chibaku Tensei just landed.



So how would the other Pains be if they are close to the God Realm?



> Also, I'm nearly done on getting those scans and explanations you asked for
> 
> Hope you've got some too



Since you're the only one actually willing to bring scans, I'll obviously have some prepared.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

chibaku tenin, 'nuf said.

EDIT: Also Demonic Statue of the Outer Path summon.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

OK GUYS I REGISTERED JUST TO SAY THIS:

*ARE YOU STUPID?*

Are people forgetting that Itachi has the three strongest jutsus, Amaterasu (undodgeable),  Tsukuyomi (less than a sec in real life is more than 72h in Tsukuyomi world) and SUSANO'O? SUSANO'O has Sword of Totsuka, get fucking scratched and you're sealed forever! It also has the Mirror shield that NOTHING, NOTHING can pass - which makes Itachi invincible.

Pain's eyes are THE SAME, shared visions, WHICH MEANS: IF ITACHI TRAPS ONE OF PAIN'S BODIES IN TSUKUYOMI, EVERYONE WOULD BE TRAPPED CUZ OF THEIR SHARED VISIONS.


Itachi wins this one, hands down.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> OK GUYS I REGISTERED JUST TO SAY THIS:
> 
> *ARE YOU STUPID?*
> 
> ...



Ok, lets go through this one by one

*Amerterasu*
If this so called "Undodgeable attack is so good, why has it been ineffective against everyone who it was used against? Failed against sasuke, failed agains raikage, failed against danzo...
And if he uses it, preta path absorbs it.
*Susano'o*
Demonic Statue of the Outer Path rapes it.

*Tsukuyomi*
1. Pain is not dumb
2. all of his eyes are not the same.
3. Pain doesn't need to make eye contact
4. That technique was MADE from the rinnengan.
5. Pain can revive any fallen paths.


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## Creator (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> *OK GUYS I REGISTERED JUST TO SAY THIS:*
> 
> *ARE YOU STUPID?*
> 
> ...



Now thats just sad.  Registering just to hype Itachi.  

Raikage dodged Amaterasu. 

Bee broke Tsukuyomi. 

Raikage owned Susano'o.

If EVERYTHING is shared then when the 3 bodies got trapped by Genjutsu, then all the other bodies would have aswell. They are essentially one person, but each are individuals. If that makes sense. Plus Itachi cant trap more then 3 i would speculate.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

Pein can use Chibaku Tensei. And I dont think Itachi can use Susanoo to block it forever. If he tries to attack Deva Path in the 5 second interval. All the other Paths can come and attack him. Animal Path and Asura Path would certainly give Itachi some trouble. And by the time Itachi tries to fend the Paths off. Deva Chibaku Tenseis again. 

Pein wins


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Now thats just sad.  Registering just to hype Itachi.
> 
> Raikage dodged Amaterasu.
> 
> ...




Read and put this in your mind. I'm not saying that Pain is weak, I'm only saying that Itachi is simply too overpowered. He defeated Orochimaru (Pain wouldn't defeat Orochimaru as fast as Itachi did) in fucking 5 seconds... twice. Kakashi and Deidara in 5 seconds too... omg.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Gondaime Tsunade said:


> Pein can use Chibaku Tensei. And I dont think Itachi can use Susanoo to block it forever. If he tries to attack Deva Path in the 5 second interval. All the other Paths can come and attack him. Animal Path and Asura Path would certainly give Itachi some trouble. And by the time Itachi tries to fend the Paths off. Deva Chibaku Tenseis again.
> 
> Pein wins



Pay attention to the manga when you read. Are you forgetting that everytime Pain MOVES or using a damn jutsu, he shorten his life? That's why Konan always begs him to stop using his chakra too much.

Pain wouldn't handle two Chibaku Tensei, he would die.

Susano'o would reflect Chibaku Tensei. Easy as that.


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## Shiorin (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> He defeated Orochimaru (Pain wouldn't defeat Orochimaru as fast as Itachi did) in fucking 5 seconds...



In a similar no-knowledge circumstance, Pain has several ways to one-shot Oro's human form, ranging from Asura Path's laser (incinerating or severely burning him), Human Path's soul rip, Preta Path's chakra drain, or a chakra disruption blade (which works surprisingly like genjutsu). 

Illusory said it best - anyone who thinks this is an easy win for either side is probably not credible. Both have the tools to bring the other down. However, Pain has the stamina advantage.


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Shiorin said:


> In a similar no-knowledge circumstance, Pain has several ways to one-shot Oro's human form, ranging from Asura Path's laser (incinerating or severely burning him), Human Path's soul rip, Preta Path's chakra drain, or a chakra disruption blade (which works surprisingly like genjutsu).
> 
> Illusory said it best - anyone who thinks this is an easy win for either side is probably not credible. Both have the tools to bring the other down. However, Pain has the stamina advantage.



One shot? Only Chibaku Tensei would be able to do that. Take Jiraiya for example, he was done when Pain cut his arm. Orochimaru could just regenerate.

Itachi could have killed Orochimaru if he wanted, but for some odd reason, he didn't...

Pain stamina advantage? Yes, but NO if he uses Chibaku Tensei. He would only shorten his life. Itachi has the jutsu advantage, Itachi has the intelligence advantage.


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## Creator (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Read and put this in your mind. I'm not saying that Pain is weak, I'm only saying that Itachi is simply too overpowered. He defeated Orochimaru (Pain wouldn't defeat Orochimaru as fast as Itachi did) in fucking 5 seconds... twice. Kakashi and Deidara in 5 seconds too... omg.



Itachi maybe overpowered but his still weak compared to Pein.



> Sasuke's Amaterasu. As I've already said, Sasuke obviously doesn't use Amaterasu the way Itachi used. Itachi is by far smarter than Sasuke. Sasuke is just a hot-headed idiot with no stratergy, unlike Itachi who's more of a genius than anyone else. Itachi is a genius among the Uchiha Clan - full of geniuses...



Doesnt matter. Amaterasu, which i suspect you know quite well about, is an instant attack.

Raikage dodged that effortlessly. It makes little difference if its Sasuke or Itachi. Amaterasu is the same. 



> Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.. Itachi never ONCE failed his Tsukuyomi (not counting his battle with Sasuke because Itachi wasn't even serious).



Same thing.  



> Are you for real? I shouldn't even comment it. Sasuke's Susano'o is NOTHING compared to Itachi's. It doesn't have a barrier, it doesn't have the Mirror shield and it doesn't have Sword of Totsuka. It's incomplete, unlike Itachi's.



The sword and the shield are add ons. Itachi only brought those to the Sasuke battle. 

Also, Susano'o is essentially chakra. Hungry Ghost realm laughs at Susano'o.



> Oh, Raikage was completely powerless when Sasuke used Susano'o... he would have been dead by now if it wasn't for Gaara protecting him. Give me the exact page of Raikage owning Susano'o, rofl.







Raikage clearly knew what he was doing and kicked Sasuke around like a tin can.



> Fail... Jiraiya used genjutsu, NOT EYE GENJUTSU. He made frog SONG. He trapped the three by the ears, not the eyes.



Your right. Jiraiya's one was far more powerful as it effected the hearing. 

Plus Toad Song is the most powerful Genjutsu we have seen this whole manga. It Paralizes your body, mind and soul. 

And unlike Itachi's MS genjutsu, Toad Song can actually kill you. 

It even stopped two massive summons in their tracks. 



> Again, Jiraiya trapped the bodies in a genjutsu, not eye genjutsu but ear... he made them hear the genjutsu. Itachi - if he trappes one, everyone's trapped because of their shared vision.



They also share the same chakra flow. 

All you need is chakra flow to disband the Genjutsu.

Plus Pein's eyes > Sharingan. Itachi's eye sharingan isnt doing anything to anyone.


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## SharinganSkill (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Now thats just sad.  Registering just to hype Itachi.
> 
> Raikage dodged Amaterasu.
> 
> ...



Only like half people think it was Tsukuyomi, and Raikage owned partial not mastered Susano?o. 

And by the way ...


Raikage dodged Amaterasu. 

Bee broke Tsukuyomi. 

Raikage owned Susano'o.

Does that mean Itachi would defeat Raikage with Tsukuyomi and Bee with Amaterasu (Susano?o)? Cause that?s how it is


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Creator said:


> Itachi maybe overpowered but his still weak compared to Pein.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Everything is in the quoted part.


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## Duykur (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Everything is in the quoted part.



*Amerterasu* has been ineffective against everyone it was used against

*Tuskuyomi* was ineffective against everyone but kakashi (Which is an exception because of the non-knowledge concept)

*Susano'o* has been ineffective against everyone it was used against. Other than oro but he as well is an exception because he didn't know susanoo had the totsuka sword.

You can claim that each of these are amazing jutsu's, but when used in real life, average ninja's have been easily able to counter them, why shouldn't pain who is one of the most powerful ninja's ever?


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## L. Messi [✔] (Jan 1, 2010)

Again, do not compare Sasuke with Itachi. It's like comparing a Kage with an Academy Student.

First off, Itachi never wanted to kill anyone, else, he'd kill Orochimaru. There's also a reason why Madara basically feared Itachi.

Tsukuyomi - lol? Orochimaru? Deidara? Sasuke? what are you talking about. It's one of Itachi's main jutsus..

Susano'o has barely been used and you dare to say that it have been ineffective again every opponent? Who cares if Oro knew it had the sword if not, it's like saying that Pain's secret isn't a part of his power. Itachi could have killed anyone, I repeat, anyone, with Susano'o. Nothing can pass its mirror and get scratched and you're trapped in an eternal genjutsu. Get real guys.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Pay attention to the manga when you read. Are you forgetting that everytime Pain MOVES or using a damn jutsu, he shorten his life? That's why Konan always begs him to stop using his chakra too much.
> 
> Pain wouldn't handle two Chibaku Tensei, he would die.
> 
> Susano'o would reflect Chibaku Tensei. Easy as that.



I meant Shinra Tensei obviously, i never know the difference between the two.

And dont you know Itachis Susanoo sverely injures his eyes?as well as greatly reducing his chakra limit. I highly doubt Susanoo can block Chibaku Tensei, because of its destrction capabilities. If it did I would be very very suprised. Pein is much more durable in battle than itachi is. Susanoo only lasts so long, then itachi runs out of Chakra,or his vision becomes to blurry. 
And yes,Pein  becomes weaker everytime he uses a move, however he was strong enough to last through the destruction of Konoha, where he used a countless number of moves. Of course he could stay alive with a battle with just Itachi.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Again, do not compare Sasuke with Itachi. It's like comparing a Kage with an Academy Student.
> 
> First off, Itachi never wanted to kill anyone, else, he'd kill Orochimaru. There's also a reason why Madara basically feared Itachi.
> 
> ...


Itachi and Sasuke are on a similar level of Skill. So no, it isnt at all like comparinga Kage to an academy student.And no Itachi cant kill everyone with Susanoo.His chakra limit isnt big enough, and Susanoo cant really do all that much against huge Boss Summons or fast opponents which can dodge.And as far as I know, the totsuka sword or whatever its called can only seal targets opun contact.

I agree with mostly every thing else though.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

> Next time if you want to argue with me, get your facts straight. All the bodies, including Nagato, had the same eyes. Said by Pa or Fukasu himself (the frog that fought with Jiraiya). Meaning; if Itachi traps one body; every body would be trapped. Period.


: no each body works singularly. You dont trap one body then all the others. In fact it would be more plausible that because they are each seperate bodies that all can see the same stuff and different things meaning they would be able to see whats genjutsu or not. It might not have an effect on them as such.

Also how are you really gonna hurt a dead body that just receives orders through chakra? 



> With Nagato you mean? Didn't he die after reviving people? If Nagato dies, the other bodies would too. Not to mention that Sharingan can see that if someone is being controlled or not.


No this guy right here

he heals the bodies of the Peins.



> OK GUYS I REGISTERED JUST TO SAY THIS:
> 
> ARE YOU STUPID?
> 
> Are people forgetting that Itachi has the three strongest jutsus, Amaterasu *(undodgeable)*,


Raikage and Sasuke. I rest my case.



> Tsukuyomi (less than a sec in real life is more than 72h in Tsukuyomi world)


And if they dont look into the eyes of Itachi?



> and SUSANO'O? SUSANO'O has Sword of Totsuka, get fucking scratched and you're sealed forever!


Actually your wrong. It only seals what it pierces. It can slice and not seal or did you forget Susanoo slicing heads off left and right of the Hydra and it wasnt getting sealed? Only piercing seals which is basically a stab with the tip and running through. Not a slice.



> Pain's eyes are THE SAME, shared visions, WHICH MEANS: IF ITACHI TRAPS ONE OF PAIN'S BODIES IN TSUKUYOMI, EVERYONE WOULD BE TRAPPED CUZ OF THEIR SHARED VISIONS.


I addressed this point above. You dont know what your talking about.



> If EVERYTHING is shared then when the 3 bodies got trapped by Genjutsu, then all the other bodies would have aswell. They are essentially one person, but each are individuals. If that makes sense. Plus Itachi cant trap more then 3 i would speculate.


Exactly. Point proven. If genjutsu on one traps all then all 6 not just those 3 would have been trapped by Jiraiya's genjutsu. All 6 would have been trapped. Yet oddly enough the mech Pein showed up not even 10 seconds later and tore Jiraiya's arm off.



> Sasuke's Amaterasu. As I've already said, Sasuke obviously doesn't use Amaterasu the way Itachi used. Itachi is by far smarter than Sasuke. Sasuke is just a hot-headed idiot with no stratergy, unlike Itachi who's more of a genius than anyone else. Itachi is a genius among the Uchiha Clan - full of geniuses...


WTF? Are you kidding me? Amaterasu is Amaterasu. You look and open your eye and bam the fire appears. Its the same shit who ever uses it. And we're also talking about a Sasuke who's sight isnt deteriorated to hell and back. We're talking about a Sasuke who's eyes were said to surpass Itachi's by Madara himself. We're talking about the Sasuke who can use Amaterasu defensively and combined with Susanoo. Point fails.



> Sasuke's Tsukuyomi.. Itachi never ONCE failed his Tsukuyomi (not counting his battle with Sasuke because Itachi wasn't even serious).


Same Tsukuyomi. If someone has the ability to break one someone has the ability to break all Tsukuyomi's.



> Oh, Raikage was completely powerless when Sasuke used Susano'o... he would have been dead by now if it wasn't for Gaara protecting him. Give me the exact page of Raikage owning Susano'o, rofl.


Sasuke would have been dead also or have you forgotten Sasuke wimpy ass was laid out spread eagle like a chump while Raikage was gonna drop a Hogan guillotine leg drop on his puny little neck? Raikage was just gonna make a simple trade 



> Fail... Jiraiya used genjutsu, NOT EYE GENJUTSU. He made frog SONG. He trapped the three by the ears, not the eyes.


Damn : same difference in this case. They were still stuck in a genjutsu that made them see shit. If they seen that shit then guess what? The others would have also and would have been trapped also. Each body is singular. It is more plausible that because it IS an eye genjutsu that it probably wouldnt work on Pein as he would still be able to tell what is reality and what isnt since he has 5 other bodies that are seeing reality.



> Read and put this in your mind. I'm not saying that Pain is weak, I'm only saying that Itachi is simply too overpowered. He defeated Orochimaru (Pain wouldn't defeat Orochimaru as fast as Itachi did) in fucking 5 seconds... twice. Kakashi and Deidara in 5 seconds too... omg.


Fail. Orochimaru is a punk ass push over when it comes to Sharingan users. Its called Plot No Jutsu. Konohamaru would fare better against Itachi than Orochimaru would. 

Orochimaru simply walks into attacks because he's an idiot for one and for two he thinks he can tank shit yet these kind of techniques you cant just tank. Where as anyone else would be smart enough to move out of the way. I swear I think its funny how people compare Orochimaru to Jiraiya when it comes to this. Like how people think Jiraiya loses to Itachi as easily because Orochimaru did in "5 seconds". Its because of the way they fight things wouldnt go the same way. I wont say anymore about this though unless I run across an Itachi and Jiraiya thread which Im sure is easy here.



> Susano'o would reflect Chibaku Tensei. Easy as that.


How does Susanoo "reflect" Chibaku Tensei? Thats just ignorant :S Chibaku Tensei in a sense isnt a straight forward attack meaning there is nothing to initially block. Its more of a gravity thing. It just draws you and everything around you up into the sky. It cant reflect Chibaku Tensei because Chibaku Tensei isnt a direct attack for it to block.



> In a similar no-knowledge circumstance, Pain has several ways to one-shot Oro's human form, ranging from Asura Path's laser (incinerating or severely burning him), *Human Path's soul rip*,


Thats all it would take. Much easier than Itachi's enormous chakra devouring Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

> Illusory said it best - anyone who thinks this is an easy win for either side is probably not credible. Both have the tools to bring the other down. However, Pain has the stamina advantage.


Agreed. 



> One shot? Only Chibaku Tensei would be able to do that. Take Jiraiya for example, he was done when Pain cut his arm. Orochimaru could just regenerate.
> 
> Itachi could have killed Orochimaru if he wanted, but for some odd reason, he didn't...
> 
> Pain stamina advantage? Yes, but NO if he uses Chibaku Tensei. He would only shorten his life. Itachi has the jutsu advantage, Itachi has the intelligence advantage.


He wouldnt even really need Chibaku Tensei. Thats only in certain circumstances. If it is used Itachi doesnt really have anything to counter it as I explained above Susanoo wouldnt be able to defend against it since its not a straight forward attack.



> Sasuke uses Amaterasu like Naruto using Kage Bunshin - no strategy at all. Itachi uses it when the opponent cannot move or like a last resort, bcuz Itachi is the smartest.


Your trying to split hairs to help yourself. It doesnt matter they are both the same attack. If one can dodge it from one person they can dodge it from another. There really is no strategy to using Amaterasu. It instantly appears on the target when Itachi uses it, and it instantly appears on the target when Sasuke used it.

And actually whats even better is that Sasuke can do something with Amaterasu that Itachi cant which is use it for defensive purposes like he did with surrounding his Susanoo and like he kept it out jumping around to defending himself. And it was still futile in front of Raikages destructive testosterone.



> Lol? It's like saying Kakashi's kage bunshins is like Naruto's. Naruto is simply a genius with his kage bunshins. People uses it on other ways, my friend.


Damn this is a really failed point. Initially Kakashi's clones are like Naruto's. Everyones is like everyones meaning the technique is intially the same with who ever uses it. Naruto just has the chakra to make a thousand of his ugly mugs and spams them everywhere. Actually Kakashi uses his faaaar more strategically since he has less chakra and cant afford to make mistakes like Naruto.

Also Naruto just got better at using his clones strategically since he got SM.



> Nope. Sasuke just got his MS, what makes you think he could even control Tsukuyomi back then?


Because Tsukuyomi is Tsukuyomi. When you can use it thats all. Just like Amaterasu. When you can use it then thats about all. Its not like you need training to master it. You get it when you awaken MS. I mean damn think about it, how do you train something thats already pretty much at its pinnacle of power? Its not liek Rasengan where you have to learn chakra control, or like Susanoo to get use to it to use the full manifestation of it, or like Chidori where you have to train your speed and chakra control. Its just fire that appears just like Tsukuyomi is genjutsu that puts someone in it when they look into the eyes.



> Also, this proves how much chakra Itachi had. Itachi, in that state, almost dead and blind, managed to bring up a 100% complete Susano'o? He also fought with it.


: I thought you guys use the databook as reference over here? Have you forgotten that Susanoo is ran off life force and not chakra? :S



> He did, but when Sasuke putted the Amaterasu flames on Susano'o, Raikage was powerless. He would have died if Gaara didn't stop his kick.


Sasuke's wimpy ass would have been dead also had Gaara not saved his miserable excuse of a life.



> They have the same chakra flow, which means, it's ONE chakra flow. They have the same eyes, which means, it's like one eye together.


No no no. They dont even have chakra flow to speak. They're dead bodies reanimated through chakra receivers. And they dont see only what one see's. They see what each other see's meaning if one is put in genjutsu the others would be able to see reality and the other Pein inside the Tsukuyomi. Meaning it would probably have no effect.

And if you try and turn it around and say what about Jiraiya's thing about it. Jiraiya's was a sound and not in the eyes. Meaning when you hear it even if you can tell reality your still paralyzed from the sound itself and it affected all 3 at once since it was sound and all 3 heard it. Tsukuyomi only works on one at a time.



> Again, do not compare Sasuke with Itachi. It's like comparing a Kage with an Academy Student.


Fail. At this point its debatable that Sasuke could be very close if not surpassed Itachi due to him having MS now. MS was Itachi's main strength. And now that Sasuke has it he has those same HAX techniques that Itachi did and even better control over them like Amaterasu around Susanoo.



> First off, Itachi never wanted to kill anyone, else, he'd kill Orochimaru. There's also a reason why Madara basically feared Itachi.


Madara feared Itachi? Damn things keep getting funnier and funnier. How do you figure? Madara who cant be affected at all by Amaterasu, can break Tsukuyomi himself due to his won Sharingan and knows about Susanoo and can warp away without getting touched? Madara played Itachi like a fiddle and in the end got what he wanted... Sasuke.

Itachi didnt want Madara to get close to Sasuke so he transferred his Amaterasu ability over to Sasuke to try and kill Madara so he didnt get close so that Sasuke would think he killed Itachi and protected the name of the Uchiha within his little brothers memories. But no Madara got to Sasuke, told him everything and now has Sasuke doing the exact opposite thing that Itachi wanted him to do.

Also heres a point I made on another forum. If Itachi was a good guy this whole time and wanted to protect the village and all why didnt he kill Madara after the Uchiha slaughter if he "had" the power to do so? The answer is he didnt have the power to do so. He could have stopped Madara from getting to Sasuke and Konoha completely had he done the logical thing and just killed Madara if he actually had the power. But no he had to join the group, send out what little info Madara was sharing, and help out in the little way that he could.



> Susano'o has barely been used and you dare to say that it have been ineffective again every opponent? Who cares if Oro knew it had the sword if not, it's like saying that Pain's secret isn't a part of his power. Itachi could have killed anyone, I repeat, anyone, with Susano'o.


Not Minato or Madara 



> And dont you know Itachis Susanoo sverely injures his eyes?


The eyes and the body as said by Sasuke about the intense pain from using it and made reference to how much Itachi must have been in with his fully manifested Susanoo.



> I highly doubt Susanoo can block Chibaku Tensei, because of its destrction capabilities.


It cant block it because theres nothing to block. Its not a direct attack. It picks up the opponent and pulls them to a small moon floating in the sky.



> I know, the totsuka sword or whatever its called can only seal targets opun contact.


No only upon piercing not slicing or else the whole Hydra would have been sealed when he sliced off each head.

Sorry for the double post but its still relevant because it said my text was to long and had to shorten. So if it must be deleted so be it.


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## Deweze (Jan 1, 2010)

Itachi, these people can't handle your genius.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

Deweze said:


> Itachi, these people can't handle your genius.



Obvious fanboy is obvious.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

There aren't any real feats to put Itachi on Pain's level. How do you expect him to push Pain like Naruto did, seriously?


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## jplaya2023 (Jan 1, 2010)

we never even seen itachi fight seriously 

we seen pain fight seriously and the result was death


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

jplaya2023 said:


> we never even seen itachi fight seriously
> 
> we seen pain fight seriously and the result was death



Itachi wasn't serious with Susano'o.

PS come to the OBD.


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

^^tell me please how sasuke would've evaded  if itachi was serious,sasuke couldn't have used oral rebirth,since his whole body would've been incinerated.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

jplaya2023 said:


> we never even seen itachi fight seriously
> 
> we seen pain fight seriously and the result was death



Yeah Itachi didnt fight seriously and the result was death  lol

Ive heard about the Jplaya Itachi stuff lol 

Itachi doesnt have what it takes to push Pein like Naruto did like said just above. 

Also wasnt it said in the volume release that Pein was the strongest man in akatsuki?



> ^^tell me please how sasuke would've evaded this if itachi was serious,sasuke couldn't have used oral rebirth,since his whole body would've been incinerated.


I fail to see what this is proving. Itachi used Amaterasu on Sasuke's flames then turned around and used it one Sasuke (which turned out the only reason Sasuke burned so fast was because it was a husk of Sasuke not his actual body).


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

^^It was also said that Itachi was invincible with Susano'o,and the guy who said it saw Pain fighting :ho


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> ^^tell me please how sasuke would've evaded  if itachi was serious,sasuke couldn't have used oral rebirth,since his whole body would've been incinerated.



He was just tackling the flames (plus if that wasn't serious, Mr. Aloe Vera would've commented on that).

Right after that he chased Sasuke. Furthermore Amaterasu burns whatever is in Itachi's field of vision [of his left eye], once the target was smothered...he closed his eye. 

Shortly he opened his eye for target number two, Sasuke.

Sasuke would've hit the ground and when did he'd do what he did the last time.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> ^^It was also said that Itachi was invincible with Susano'o,and the guy who said it saw Pain fighting :ho



This is also what we would consider an over statement only said to make Itachi sound like a pimp for a second :ho

Just like Amaterasu is "unavoidable" :ho that was until the Raikage punched Kishi in his shit and told him to add him to the manga  thus proving everything Zetsu says is crock


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## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> ^^It was also said that Itachi was invincible with Susano'o,and the guy who said it saw Pain fighting :ho



Madara said Pain was invincible,your point??


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## God (Jan 1, 2010)

thank you daviddd

now i'll reply to 



YataNoKagami said:


> Explain this more directly? I mean Itachi is actually the greatest genjutsu user in the manga plus his genjutsu would probably also hit Nagato's main body because Genjutsu injects chakra into someone's mind.



no proof it would hit nagato

in fact, he would shut down the connection, destroy the genjutsu, then turn it on again.



> Itachi wouldn't probably pointlessly spawn amaterasu [*cough* Sasugay] in fact Itachi is one of the smartest nin's in the manga so the timing and executations of his techniques very exact. Also I don't see how Itachi can't get too Naruto's level of intelligence because Naruto actually "figured out" Pains power then how long would Itachi need for this?



naruto didnt figure shit out

everything was found out by different teams of people

if itachi uses amaterasu, please believe

it's not doing shit



> It's said that Susano'o combined with the 2 spiritual items gain Itachi total invincibility. In fact, it actually blocked 2 S-ranked techniques while been used by an exhausted and dying user. So how the hell would Susano'o be swallowed? Susano'o is supposed to be the "God of the Storm" and is no physical attack. Chibaku Tensei? you're kidding right. Chibaku tensei is merely a bit of earth surrounding Itachi and wrapping him though I still don't see how this "earth" could break through a defence that an instant lighning attack referred as an S-ranked techniqe couldn't break through this.



it's called materialized chakra

chakra = absorbed

chibaku tensei is a bit of dirt?

lol it left a giant fucking crater in the battle field it would crush susanoo

btw, itachi's not doing anything next chapter

/thread

goodnight everyone


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He was just tackling the flames (plus if that wasn't serious, Mr. Aloe Vera would've commented on that).
> 
> Right after that he chased Sasuke. Furthermore Amaterasu burns whatever is in Itachi's field of vision [of his left eye], once the target was smothered...he closed his eye.
> 
> ...


Actually,Mr aloe Vera commented ,and  showed why sasuke stopped the first ama,not to burn sasuke's head(and thus eyes).In the first case,if itachi continued his ama,sasuke's head would've been burned,and then no eyes 
after burning the flames,itachi could've continued staring at sasuke,and the flames would've immediately converged on him


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> Actually,Mr aloe Vera commented ,and  showed why sasuke stopped the first ama,not to burn sasuke's head(and thus eyes).In the first case,if itachi continued his ama,sasuke's head would've been burned,and then no eyes
> after burning the flames,itachi could've continued staring at sasuke,and the flames would've immediately converged on him



In the first case he couldn't. He closed his eye when the target was engulfed. Generally that's what happens when Amaterasu is used.


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## Dexion (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In the first case he couldn't. He closed his eye when the target was engulfed. Generally that's what happens when Amaterasu is used.



I wonder if normal replacement is all it takes to escape Amaterasu.


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## jplaya2023 (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi wasn't serious with Susano'o.
> 
> PS come to the OBD.





i got banned from that place


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## jplaya2023 (Jan 1, 2010)

vane said:


> Yeah Itachi didnt fight seriously and the result was death  lol
> 
> Ive heard about the Jplaya Itachi stuff lol
> 
> ...



Itachi planned the entire sasuke fight and planned his death. Did nagato plan to die vs naruto


big difference

Pain does not have the abilities to beat itachi

all genjitsu works on all 6 bodies at the same time with shared vision

god of sun is instant and would vaporize all pains instantly


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In the first case he couldn't. He closed his eye when the target was engulfed. Generally that's what happens when Amaterasu is used.



No,the flames would've touched sasuke's head,and then oral rebirth would be impossible to use.Zetsu clearly commented  that itachi stoppped the flames in teh second case(with closing his eyes like in the first case)


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## jplaya2023 (Jan 1, 2010)

Dexion said:


> I wonder if normal replacement is all it takes to escape Amaterasu.





negative since it's instant there is no escape


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

> You have no proof of Chibaku Tensei being stronger than Susano'o. You don't even have a proof of Chibaku Tensei passing its shield. Fact still remains, Susano'o's shield would reflect it whether you like it or now.
> 
> 
> I disagree with that. Every jutsu has a strategy, example, what if Itachi paralyzes Pain with genjutsu and then Amaterasu? That's strategy. Fact is, Itachi is by far smarter than Itachi and for all we know, he haven't failed in any of his techniques unlike Sasuke, who fails anytime.
> ...


Bull. Shared vision doesnt mean Itachi can put all Peins in one genjutsu. Thats really ignorant to think. Shared vision means that each see's different things *AND* the same things. Meaning 
1.The others can see what is reality thus proving your shit wrong
2.It will only work on one Pein seeing as genjutsu works by controlling the chakra flow through *the body*, not bodies of shared vision. Stop trying to push your Itachi fanboy shit on everyone.



> Are you for real?... So what if Kakashi can't afford mistakes? Naruto has his chakra which he uses, he can afford mistakes and actually, in kage bunshins, Naruto is by far the smartest. He knows what he's doing with them. Kakashi as well, but Naruto can make more. Kakashi only uses his bunshins when he really have to and Naruto uses it everytime - his main jutsu - and you say Kakashi is smarter with it? Get real fool.
> 
> So? Where's your point?


 Damn you fail hard. It was a reference to how Amaterasu for Sasuke is still Amaterasu for Itachi. It was a reference to how you dont have to train Amaterasu to use it to its maximum potential where as everyone else has to train there shit. If your gonna quote my shit at least know what the fuck your talking about and understand.



> Lol, then explain why Sasuke's Susano'o isn't completed like Itachi? So fail, you obviously need to train... maybe not train but CONTROL your eyes, you need to control both of your eyes to be able to use Amaterasu. Think twice before posting.


Damn dude your failing left and right. You've obviously said what I just said. You dont have to train Amaterasu. But you have to get better at using Susanoo. Like really dude are you for real? Your quoting my shit and not even understanding a damn thing. I said Susanoo has to be trained. JUST NOT AMATERASU. Read before you quote there smart fellow.



> Why will J-man's work and why won't Itachi's Tsukuyomi work on his eyes when they have shared visions? Bullshit. Read above.


Ive already explained this. Jiraiya's worked because he has the ability to put all bodies that hear the song under genjutsu where as Itachi can only do it one at a time. Jiraiya can put a small army under genjutsu at once. Itachi has to do it one at a time. Sound works different than sight.



> - Why did Madara order Pain to attack Konoha right after Itachi''s death OR when Itachi was going to face Sasuke?


Why not? Pein was the unofficial leader who was considered the strongest man in Akatsuki.



> - Why did Madara talk to Sasuke right after Itachi died? He could speak to him earlier.


This is easy. Because Itachi was Madara's gateway to gathering Sasuke to his group. Without Itachi how would Madara have convinced Sasuke to join him?



> - Why did Madara say that Itachi was the only one who could stop his plans. He said "Now when Itachi's dead, nobody can stop me, so much for "not attacking Konoha."


Maybe because Itachi is a smart fellow, not overall because of Itachi's strength.



> - Why did Madara say that he Itachi could kill him? Why did Madara say that if Itachi knew Madara's secret, Itachi would kill him? What's Madara's secret? The knowledge about Itachi's secret - Itachi's secret = he was ordered to kill his clan and Madara knew that. What Itachi didn't know was that Madara knew everything about Itachi.


Because everyone has a secret. Pein could be beat with his secret also. 

But you want me to answer questions why dont you answer mine

If Itachi was more powerful, why didnt he just kill Madara after the slaughter since he knew Madara was the bad guy and would later go after Sasuke whom Itachi was trying to keep Madara away from?



> This clearly proves that Itachi > Madara, whether a pathetic emo like you likes it or not. Madara said it himself, just live with it.


I wont live with it because its a lie whether a piss ant like yourself wants to believe it or not. Your debate is weak as shit. If Itachi was greater than Madara he would have done away with Madara before the shit hit the fan.



> And he gave that automatic-Amaterasu thingy to Sasuke because he knew something was wrong, he hoped that would kill Madara or something.


Or something lmao



> SIMPLY BECAUSE Kishimoto didn't want Itachi to kill Madara. Easy and simple as that. Itachi didn't want to kill the main villain. Madara himself said that Itachi was capable of killing him, Itachi was stronger, which means, Itachi had the power to annihilate him. You're not the one who decides things about Naruto. I mean, it's like saying: why didn't Sasuke kill Naruto at valley of end? Lol?


And you can not prove that Madara saying Itachi could kill him meant that he was stronger. I can kill anyone... in their sleep. Konohamaru can kill Itachi.... While Itachi passed out from a night of binge drinking. Come on think about it dude. Like someone can kill Pein with his secret. But on the flip side without that secret he's unbeatable and we know Itachi doesnt have that secret like Madara said himself. 



> Sorry for the insults in there but you are ignoring facts and you won't realize them for some reasons -.-


Im not ignoring anything. Im providing facts of my own coupled with flawless logic. Where as your providing words and twisting them to benefit your argument. 

@Jplaya2023


> Itachi planned the entire sasuke fight and planned his death. Did nagato plan to die vs naruto
> 
> 
> big difference
> ...


No it doesnt damn it  you really are ignorant if you think that. Really dude get out of Itachi's lap and think logically. I know you like sitting there to feel his boner but damn this is ridiculous.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> No,the flames would've touched sasuke's head,and then oral rebirth would be impossible to use.Zetsu clearly commented  that itachi stoppped the flames in teh second case(with closing his eyes like in the first case)



The second case was him stopping (but Sasuke acted the moment he fell down).
The first case Itachi's Amaterasu got the target and he closed his eye. Like what's happened every time Amaterasu has been used.


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## Angoobo (Jan 1, 2010)

jplaya2023 said:


> negative since it's instant there is no escape



Where did u see it was instant??
A dodged it,and he wasn't even moving at light speed(which is not instant either)


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The second case was him stopping (but Sasuke acted the moment he fell down).
> The first case Itachi's Amaterasu got the target and he closed his eye. Like what's happened every time Amaterasu has been used.



In the first case,they were still flames,which would've killed sasuke if itachi didn't close the eyes(to shut the flames).And Itachi didn't aim for his head not to damage sasuke's eyes,zaetsu clearly said that.


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

Damn missed something



> You have no proof of Chibaku Tensei being stronger than Susano'o. You don't even have a proof of Chibaku Tensei passing its shield. Fact still remains, Susano'o's shield would reflect it whether you like it or now.


It cant block something thats not attacking it. How do you figure Chibaku Tensei passes anything? It picks shit up and hauls it to a giant floating rock in the sky. Susanoo isnt void of gravity. If so it would float into space when its used.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> In the first case,they were still flames,which would've killed sasuke if itachi didn't close the eyes(to shut the flames).And Itachi didn't aim for his head not to damage sasuke's eyes,zaetsu clearly said that.



I'm not disputing the second case, however it wouldn't make a difference as Sasuke countered the exact moment he fell down.

The first case he stopped when Amaterasu hit the target; again its done with every Amaterasu. Zetsu saw no problem with it.


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## Goobtachi (Jan 1, 2010)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm not disputing the second case, however it wouldn't make a difference as Sasuke countered the exact moment he fell down.
> 
> The first case he stopped when Amaterasu hit the target; again its done with every Amaterasu. Zetsu saw no problem with it.



But imagine if itachi was aiming for sasuke's head,no time to use his oral rebirth,right??


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## God (Jan 1, 2010)

dude

change your sig

also someone counter these points real quick

how will genjutsu stop pein

he has been genjutsu'd before, and nagato was never hit with it, neither were other paths

amaterasu has been proven to be an overhyped regular black fire, it will be absorbed repeatedly

then what

susano'o has been punked out so many times it's not funny

how will it save itself from getting absorbed, chibaku tensei'd, cst'd, overwhelmed by summons or simply die from exhaustion

how will itachi, with all his gimmicks used up, save himself from the oncoming rape at 300 mph?


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## David (Jan 1, 2010)

ItachitheGreat, I admire your attempt, but calm down.

Don't you see something wrong with your arguments?

*Edit:* Actually, nevermind.  I checked your VM box and am about ready to give up hope on you.

Since you wrote your argument the way your did and I can't easily quote it, I'll just let you know about Nagato/"Pain" and Genjutsu, quoting what I said before.



			
				Daviddd said:
			
		

> There are numerous reasons why Nagato has excellent Genjutsu defense.
> 
> (1) He constantly changes the chakra frequency in each Pain body, and has the ability to completely stop the chakra flow in each body, or to boost it up with even more chakra.  Moreover, Nagato has some of (if not the best) chakra control in the manga, being able to control 6 bodies at once with extreme coordination, along with summons.
> 
> ...


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## vane (Jan 1, 2010)

> You are the biggest re*** I've ever seen. Even if the others still can see the reality, Itachi still has the advantage. Why? ITACHI CAN FUCKING kill those bodies with Tsukuyomi before they could break out, or before they realize that they are in the reality. How? LESS THAN A FREAKING SECOND IN THE REAL LIFE IS MORE THAN 72H IN ITACHI'S WORLD. Get this shit in ur brain already - if ur not brainless.


Im the retard yet Im giving you proof of how genjutsu works and explaining with logic why it doesnt work? Recap. Genjutsu works by basically running your chakra through your opponent. Thats why genjutsu can be broken from an outside source putting chakra into you. Now if he's only doing that to one body how the fuck do you figure he can do it to all just because they can all see the same shit? HE CANT.



> LOL? Why train for Susano'o and not for Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu?


Tell me how the hell would you train Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi? Susanoo yes because you have to be able to use both eyes in conjunction with each other and be able to withstand the pain. But tell me how do you make Amaterasu "better"?



> FACT STILL REMAINS, YOU NEED TO TRAIN YOUR RIGHT OR LEFT EYE TO CONTROL AMATERASU, YOU NEED TO TRAIN RIGHT OR LEFT EYE FOR TSUKUYOMI AND YOU NEED TO TRAIN BOTH OF YOUR EYES TO CONTROL SUSANO'O.


Oh Id love to hear this. How in the world would you train your eye? Huh? Again how do you make Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi "better"?

lmao this is funny I mean damn your really saying that Amaterasu can get better than just putting it on someone? Even though we've never seen it any other way. Your telling me theres another way to make Tsukuyomi "more powerful"? lol a genjutsu that once you get its already at the pinnacle of its power? lol Susanoo sure because it has to go through stages and you have to be able to use both eyes simultaneously along with being able to bare the pain. But to train one eye to use Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi better? lmao



> Sound works different than sight - I agree, but Pain's case is different! It's only Pain who have the same eyes! They work different as well. Eye contact and everyone of them would be trapped. Seriously, just live with it. They have shared visions - they all see the same shit so if Itachi traps Human Path, he traps everyone. Period.


No dude you just fail really badly. It doesnt matter if they share the same vision. You obviously dont even know how genjutsu itself works. So please go read a book and learn how it works then try and tell me something k thnx bye



> Haha! Just don't comment if you have nothing to say. Why the fuck didn't Madara order Pain to attack Konoha before Itachi fighting Sasuke? Get real fool.


Im enlightened to hear what the fuck the difference would have been. 



> ...? Madara could still speak to Sasuke before facing Itachi. You make no sense at all. One of Itachi's main goals in his life was to keep Sasuke away from Madara. He succeeded but he didn't know what would happen after his death, therefor he gave some unrevealed power(s) to Naruto. Face it... Madara couldn't speak because Itachi would kill him


Oh yeah smart move go talk to Sasuke before he fights Itachi so that Itachi can just tell the truth later and ruin everything for Sasuke  dude you have no fucking clue what your talking about and are just pulling for strings and are falling short. If Madara had talked to Sasuke prior Itachi would have said Madara was lying. Then both of their plans would have been shot. So Madara waited till Itachi was dead and also used that battle as proof to prove to Sasuke that Itachi really was a good brother that was trying to keep Konoha at peace. Had Madara said anything before that to Sasuke Madara couldnt have used that battle to his benefit to convince Sasuke about Itachi and Itachi would still be around to lead Sasuke away from Madara. 

It had nothing to do with Itachi being greater than Madara. Only an over hyped fanboy like yourself would pull for stings like that. You need to get your face from between Itachis legs and read the manga the way its meant to be read and stop using your own interpretations on shit because you are by far over doing things in your favor making yourself look ignorant.



> Above... you have nothing to come up with. I already won this, get lost already.


lmao no you just think you won because your an over zealous fanboy who has his face between Itachi's legs and wont take no for an answer even if its backed with 10 pages of proof and even a page wrote by Kishi himself saying "ItachiTheGreat shut up your wrong and dont know what you are talking about. Now stop being homosexual for one of my created characters".
I swear really its the worst having to debate with a fanboy like yourself because your bias stands taller than the empire state building. Even solid proof saying Im right and your wrong cant prove you Itachi fanboys wrong because you just keep saying no and saying the same shit over and over 



> Simply because there would be no story-line after that. Just what if Itachi killed Madara now? There wouldn't be any Madara (the main villain) there simply wouldn't be any Naruto now if Madara was dead. Why didn't Itachi kill Orochimaru when he had the chance? Why didn't Sasuke kill Naruto in Valley of End? You ask Kishimoto, I'm not him.


Doesnt matter my point still stands. If Itachi had the ability he would have done it before the shit hit the fan.



> Madara thought that omfg. Are you for real? You are looking very desperate now. Madara himself said that Itachi could kill him, Itachi was the only one who could stop his plans. Did he say that just to fill up the manga pages? Fool.


Im looking desperate when your the one twisting shit in your favor? lmao GTFO.

Its the same as Pein. You dont have his secret he's unbeatable. Just like Pein said if Jiraiya knew his secret before Jiraiya would have won, but does that mean Jiraiya is stronger? No.

Madara has a secret but its unknown to Itachi meaning Itachi cant beat Madara. Meaning Madara>Itachi.



> You are NOT Masashi Kishimoto, the owner of Naruto. Pain said that Jiraiya could kill him, I myself don't believe it BUT Pain didn't say that to just fill up a a page or sth like that. He obviously said that for a reason. Again, you are not Kishimoto and get over it and live with the FACT that Itachi > anyone except for Sage of the 6 paths.


Yeah he said that but does that mean Jiraiya>Pein? Hell no. It means Jiraiya with secret>Pein. Madara>Itachi. Itachi with secret>Madara. Thats all there is to it. Now go to your room and cry for a few hours in front of your Itachi poster fanboy.



> Lmfao, you're not smart. You're a dumb re****. You are looking more and more desperate, especially when you "answered" the questions I asked (why Madara sent Pain after Itachi's death etc.). Haha, get real dude.


lol no your looking desperate by trying to twist shit in your favor and its failing miserably. And tell me why the fuck it would have made a difference to send Pein to destroy Konoha before? Oh because Itachi would have stopped him? LMAO yeah fucking right. People like you get laughed at. Now who's the one looking desperate xD


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 1, 2010)

godtachi said:


> But imagine if itachi was aiming for sasuke's head,no time to use his oral rebirth,right??



The question is...could Itachi see Sasuke's head with flames _being within his field of vision?_


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## jplaya2023 (Jan 1, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Where did u see it was instant??
> A dodged it,and he wasn't even moving at light speed(which is not instant either)



ever heard of PIS?


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## God (Jan 2, 2010)

yea, it's in the can(n)on


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## itachi52496 (Jan 2, 2010)

i think that pein would win....the rinnegan can overpower the effects of the mangekyou sharingan and peins god realm justu is basically an ustopable fuuinjustu.....but itachis susano'o can prove to be a neiusance to pein....but i think pein would come out the victor


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## itachi52496 (Jan 2, 2010)

pein does have disadvantages like being weak against genjustu....though you have to admit...itachi would prove a fair fight


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## Sahriana (Jan 2, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Pain and Itachi fight to decide which one is the strongest.
> 
> Location: Konoha ruins
> State of Mind: IC
> ...



This is just a terrible match up for Itachi; Pain's entire character design was caused to over-whelm and wreak havoc to the surroundings and to completely over-whelm an opponent in force.  Itachi's character design is to be the perfect 1 v 1 killer.  This is basically a 1 v 6 battle; which any ninja would be hard-pressed against. 

Body vs Body, I believe Itachi can handle just about any of them; however -- that's not P-man's style to fight 1 v 1, that's not " God's way ".  Pain wins with low difficulty; he'd probably lose a few bodies due to Amaterasu and Susanoo; but inevitably; Itachi will either A: run out of chakra, or B: run out of life [ viva la Susanoo. ]


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## Tipster74743 (Jan 2, 2010)

Pain is an interesting character. They are overrated to hell and back on every website on the internet. Individually, only 3 of them are S-Class (Deva, Asura, and Animal). When Animal Realm is destroyed, all of the summons are gone.

Tsukuyomi is debatable on Pain, but Amaterasu is not. Amaterasu still one shots any Realm that is hit. The only ones with noticeable speeds are Asura and Deva realms. The others get instantly obliterated.

Susano'o will be used if he thinks it needs to be used. And if he uses it, he wins.

This is actually a lot closer than what some of the people are arguing.


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## tavrean (Jan 2, 2010)

ItachiTheGreat said:


> Read and put this in your mind. I'm not saying that Pain is weak, I'm only saying that Itachi is simply too overpowered. He defeated Orochimaru (Pain wouldn't defeat Orochimaru as fast as Itachi did) in fucking 5 seconds... twice. Kakashi and Deidara in 5 seconds too... omg.



ARE U SERIOUS. u think pein couldnt kill orochimaru quicker than itachi
susanoo didnt even kill oro, he escaped. you remember that snake that slithered away, CH.393 pg.1
he only died cuz amaterasu accidentally fell on him ch.394 pg.3
 so that means that even itachi's susanoo isnt "perfect"


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## tavrean (Jan 2, 2010)

jplaya2023 said:


> we never even seen itachi fight seriously
> 
> we seen pain fight seriously and the result was death



when he fights seriouisly the result is death for the other person. 
first off, he wasnt trying to kill naruto, he needs him to be alive to extract the beast..... and he gave his own life to revive 90% of the largest villiage in the narutoverse
if he wanted to, he would have destroyed naruto several times during that fight

oh and to those statements about amaterasu destroying the immortal dog summon, well all someone sould have to do is attack it at a point where the flames are not at (mabey a paw or tail) and it will multiply unnafected, sort of like kira b did when saus set him on fire and then choped off a tentacle that he substituted into.


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## Goobtachi (Jan 2, 2010)

tavrean said:


> ARE U SERIOUS. u think pein couldnt kill orochimaru quicker than itachi
> susanoo didnt even kill oro, he escaped. you remember that snake that slithered away, CH.393 pg.1
> he only died cuz amaterasu accidentally fell on him ch.394 pg.3
> so that means that even itachi's susanoo isnt "perfect"



Stupid post is stupid -neg-


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## Angoobo (Jan 2, 2010)

Tipster74743 said:


> Pain is an interesting character. They are overrated to hell and back on every website on the internet. Individually, only 3 of them are S-Class (Deva, Asura, and Animal). When Animal Realm is destroyed, all of the summons are gone.
> 
> Tsukuyomi is debatable on Pain, but Amaterasu is not. Amaterasu still one shots any Realm that is hit. The only ones with noticeable speeds are Asura and Deva realms. The others get instantly obliterated.
> 
> ...



No,Ama is either absorbed or repelled.
Same with Susanoo.


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## Vergil642 (Jan 2, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> Where did u see it was instant??
> A dodged it,and he wasn't even moving at light speed(which is not instant either)



Ei escaped Sasuke's sight, Sasuke can therefore not focus his eyes on him, Sasuke can therefore not ignite Amaterasu on his ass.

Unless you can escape the MS user's sight, you can't dodge Amaterasu.

Pain can't escape Itachi's sight, no body can.

This leads us to conclude that Pain cannot dodge Amaterasu. This isn't the same as not countering it, but lack of knowledge of it means countering it becomes nigh impossible except by luck.


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## Kazekage Gaara (Jan 2, 2010)

Probably Pain, i think even Susanoo can't do anything here....


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## Dariustwinblade (Jan 2, 2010)

Pain clobbers Itachi in the head with a fucking rock killing the uchiha instantly


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## Angoobo (Jan 2, 2010)

Vergil642 said:


> Ei escaped Sasuke's sight, Sasuke can therefore not focus his eyes on him, Sasuke can therefore not ignite Amaterasu on his ass.
> 
> Unless you can escape the MS user's sight, you can't dodge Amaterasu.
> 
> ...




You said that Ei escaped Sasuke's sight,then u say noone can escape Itachi's sight?manga proof please.


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## Vergil642 (Jan 2, 2010)

Nagatosama said:


> You said that Ei escaped Sasuke's sight,then u say noone can escape Itachi's sight?manga proof please.



I meant no Pain body, as in none of the realms. They haven't got the speed to do it.

As Itachi's got superior basic reactions to Sasuke and the same boost, I don't think Ei could escape his sight either.


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