# 7th gate Gai vs Itachi?



## MaruUchiha (Jun 9, 2020)

Genjutsu is negged by Gai's foot method, 7th gate is too fast for Amaterasu, and a stronger Susanoo was already destroyed by Hirudora. Why is Itachi winning here general consensus again?

vs

Location: 7th gate Gai vs Juubi Madara
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: 8th gate


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## LightningForce (Jun 9, 2020)

Only chance Itachi has a shot against Guy is if he starts in base.

If Guy starts in 7th Gate then it’s Hirudora clearing time.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Reddan (Jun 9, 2020)

Itachi has finger genjutsu, which is going to mess Gai up as will crow genjutsu.

Itachi has the Yata mirror as well, which casually blocked attacks from snakes stronger than Manda. Then Totsuka would probably hit him.

That apart, Itachi is one of the best at clone feinting, so a good chance he misdirects Gai into hitting a clone.

EDIT

However, 8 Gate Gai decimates virtually everyone. A loser with no talent like Gai to reach such levels is incredible. He pulled himself up by the boot straps. He is just immense.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 9, 2020)

Reddan said:


> Itachi has finger genjutsu, which is going to mess Gai up as will crow genjutsu.


Itachi can raise a finger before 7th gate Gai blitzes or forces him on the defensive? Crows are faster than 7th gate Gai?


Reddan said:


> Itachi has the Yata mirror as well, which casually blocked attacks from snakes stronger than Manda.


7th gate Gai is more than fast enough to sidestep Yata Mirror and attack Susanoo's more vulnerable areas after realizing the shield is arguably invincible


Reddan said:


> Then Totsuka would probably hit him.


OOC. Itachi uses that for sealing not for battle


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## Tengu (Jun 9, 2020)

It is a battle where one outlasts the other, the question is who?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 9, 2020)

Gai has all the tools and feats to back them up to win. 
His gated aura flipped a lake inside out, so amaterasu isn't sticking.
His foot speed in gate 6 is fast enough to intercept TSB's so amaterasu isn't landing in the first place. 
Tsukuyomi needs eye contact which Gai can avoid.
Finger genjutsu lacks feats. Gai already noticed and dispelled a stronger genjutsu cast by kabuto. 
Asakujaku is too fast and has a wide range for Itachi to avoid on his foot. He needs Susanoo.
And itachi is crippled mobility wise if he camps as gai can run around and use hirudora to bust it, or he can use it to pick it up like he did vs Madara, which would negate the yata mirror as it's not attacking it. 
If he does pick it up and detonate, the legless Susanoo will be breached and Itachi will be knocked out. He is not as resilient as Kisame. And Kisame on bijuu chakra was left on his back after Gai's controlled hirudora hit him, after being dampened by the daikodan.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 9, 2020)

Could see both sides winning. Guy cause his fighting style is tailor-made for beating Uchiha and Itachi is really good at winning unwinnable fights regardless of the odds. So I say either way or Guy with mid to high diff.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 9, 2020)

Amaterasu wrecks him.


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## Reddan (Jun 9, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Itachi can raise a finger before 7th gate Gai blitzes or forces him on the defensive? Crows are faster than 7th gate Gai?


Yes Itachi can raise a finger. He is one of the fastest ninjas in the series. The crows can block Gai's line of sight and leave him open to attacking an exploding bunshin.


> 7th gate Gai is more than fast enough to sidestep Yata Mirror and attack Susanoo's more vulnerable areas after realizing the shield is arguably invincible
> 
> OOC. Itachi uses that for sealing not for battle


No he is not. 

I thought 7th Gate was better than Kakashi, but made clear they are still equals.

Gai is my favourite character, but this is not a fight he wins. Kisame could react and use his best jutsu against Gai.

Gai is going to get pierced by Totsuka if it goes that far, but more likely he gets dropped by the finger genjutsu or an exploding clone.


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## Sufex (Jun 9, 2020)

Imo itachi wins majority of the times, but guys a good match up. Especially due to hiruodura which isn't ninjutsu so that might be even bypass yatas defence. While gai has the foot fight method on lock itachi has multiple ways of catching him.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 9, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Genjutsu is negged by Gai's foot method,


 Indeed. 





> 7th gate is too fast for Amaterasu


 Not even true to begin with, and even if it was, how would Guy react to it in time when he's busy staring at Itachi's feet? 





> , and a stronger Susanoo was already destroyed by Hirudora.


 Literally never happened, and the Yata Mirror would deflect the Hirudora back at Guy and one-shot him anyway. 





> Why is Itachi winning here general consensus again?


 Because he is clearly portrayed as way stronger and would beat both WA Kakashi and Guy simultaneously.

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlackHeartedImp (Jun 9, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Genjutsu is negged by Gai's foot method


Handicaps his fighting style and leaves him open to getting clone feinted.


MaruUchiha said:


> 7th gate is too fast for Amaterasu,


That he won't be able to anticipate because he's busy looking at Itachi's feet and won't see his eyes bleed. 



MaruUchiha said:


> and a stronger Susanoo was already destroyed by Hirudora.


Yata Mirror, which tanked Kirin. Kirin >=Hirudora.


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## Draco Bolton (Jun 9, 2020)

The physical pain felt during the seventh gate should be sufficient to dissipate the genjutsu. Being under the seventh (and eighth) gate probably gives you a permanent kai. And since Gai doesn't look at the eyes of his opponent he won't be in danger against the most powerfuls genjutsus of Itachi (if ever the pain of the 7th gate wasn't enough to interrupt the powerful occular genjutsu. In the end Itachi will not even be able to trap Gai (a very fast Gai) in his most powerful genjutsu (the occulars ones)).

All Gai will have to do is bully Itachi Susano (Susano can be activated very quickly so Itachi will use it in time. If he doesn't use Susano, he will be blitzed). He will hit it from everywhere (no Itachi doesn't have the same control of Enton than Sasuke according Kumo guy (but Kishimoto talk through him), Sasuke is better. So Itachi can't put enton around his Susano) and when he realizes where the weakest part of Susano (the back. The part not protected by Yata) is, he will destroy it with Hirudora and Itachi with it.

Amaterasu is dodgeable at this speed (nothing proves he is slower or far slower than V2 A4. I have already made a post about that). Let's not even talk about Totsuka.

And you all must also stop acting as if the seventh gate only lasts 10 seconds or less. When it's much longer. Sanninfans.....

Gai high diff cuz he will not have to make any mistakes. And defeat Susano will be hard.

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## LightningForce (Jun 9, 2020)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Because he is clearly portrayed as way stronger and would beat both WA Kakashi and Guy simultaneously.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 9, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> And you all must also stop acting as if the seventh gate only lasts 10 seconds or less. When it's much longer. Sanninfans.....



I personally have nothing against the Sannin. But Sannin fans are truly something else beyond the realm of "gifted"...

Anyways, finger genjutsu arguments are about as relevant as Yomi Numa. Amaterasu is a joke by WA standards. Tsukuyomi has very little chance of landing on Sharingan countering Guy.

Only thing Itachi really has going for him are clones & Susano'o. 7th Gate Guy opens up with Hirudora, Itachi puts up Susano'o, maybe tanks it once but his speed is too much for Itachi so he is going to get pressured & drained eventually having to maintain Susano'o all throughout.

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## Veracity (Jun 9, 2020)

Ribcage Sussano alone arguably walls Gai’s intial assault and then his LoS is blocked via Katon or crows. Gai is then getting feinted and hit with Amaterasu from his blind spot.

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## Mad Scientist (Jun 9, 2020)

Tengu said:


> It is a battle where one outlasts the other, the question is who?


Well if 7G Gai is already ready to jump when the fight starts, he blitzes. 

His punches will rip through Susano like Onoki-Ay's did (or worse), if that is even able to be formed in time. Recall that even 6G Gai was punching back Version 2 Tailed Beasts and toppling over the Gedo Mazo.

Genjutsu is negged because there is too much chakra is flowing through his body and steam/air pressure pouring out of his body.

I don't get why people think 7G Gai is not high kage at least. God forbid Gai just one short of the Death Gate outperform Edo SM Minato against the weakest form of JJR Madara.

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Daytime Tiger crushes Itachi.

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## Final Jutsu (Jun 9, 2020)

lmao @ totsuka hitting 7th gate gai.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 9, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Daytime Tiger crushes Itachi.


Daytime Tiger did not kill Kisame though so how would it break through Itachi's Susano?


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 9, 2020)

Final Jutsu said:


> lmao @ totsuka hitting 7th gate gai.


It blitzed Nagato though who could easily handle 100% KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time?


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> Daytime Tiger did not kill Kisame though so how would it break through Itachi's Susano?



Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame, he was trying to capture Kisame alive for intel. When Guy was serious using it, it had no problems breaking through Madara's Susano'o and kicking Madara off the scene for an entire chapter. Itachi gets pasted by Daytime Tiger.


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## Final Jutsu (Jun 9, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It blitzed Nagato though who could easily handle 100% KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time?



Nagato got blitzed due to lack of mobility as was said by kabuto, and kabuto didnt even use nagatos sensory skills.  Not to mention the huge smoke blocking his view?

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Final Jutsu said:


> Nagato got blitzed due to lack of mobility as was said by kabuto, and kabuto didnt even use nagatos sensory skills.  Not to mention the huge smoke blocking his view?



True enough. Kabuto's surprise at Nagato's immobility and sensing skills was clear for all to see.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 9, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame.


But still, wasn't he hit with it? Like it was pretty massive as far as I can recall... and it was stated to be much more powerful than Morning Peacock.



Windmaster Sam said:


> It had no problems breaking through Madara's Susano'o and kicking Madara off the scene for an entire chapter.


I appreciate that it had Madara out for an entire chapter, but is there any proof or reason to believe it broke through Madara's Susano (given the Kisame feat)? Also, what if Madara had just been sitting there _because_ he was uninterested in engaging again until the Ten Tails was revived (which we know he was waiting for)?



Final Jutsu said:


> Nagato got blitzed due to lack of mobility as was said by kabuto


This was a Nagato that was vitalized and capable of handling KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time. As far as I recall, only frail Nagato was stated to have mobility issues. Moreover, not only was Nagato out of the range of the smoke, I'm fairly certain that reanimated shinobi are programmed to defend automatically against attacks. That's how fast Totsuka Blade was.


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## LightningForce (Jun 9, 2020)

Posters will claim Nagato is the most OP & level entry into Demigod tier or whatever cause of all his crazy feats when *under control* by Kabuto.

But when others bring up other stuff like getting mauled by Susano'o, getting blitzed by Totsuka blade... nope it's all Kabuto's fault, wasn't using Nagato to his fullest potential.



Double standard much? May I remind users that Nagato *under free reign* didn't think he could move or perform hand seals & got one-shotted by Amaterasu?



Oh yeah let's not forget in his "prime" he turned crippled by Hanzo paper bomb trap too.


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## Serene Grace (Jun 9, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> It blitzed Nagato though who could easily handle 100% KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time?


the circumstances weighed against Nagato, also what do you believe 7 gated guy is less reflective than Nagato?


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> But still, wasn't he hit with it? Like it was pretty massive as far as I can recall... and it was stated to be much more powerful than Morning Peacock.



Being hit by it is irrelevant if Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame. We've seen *plenty of characters use powerful jutsu non-fatally* (e.g. Sasuke using Chidori against Bee and Jiraiya using Rasengan against a complete fodder), why would Guy be the exception? Also, funny you bring up Morning Peacock, when* Morning Peacock did kill Kisame's clone *which had the* same body (and therefore durability) as the original*.  



Mad Scientist said:


> I appreciate that it had Madara out for an entire chapter, but is there any proof or reason to believe it broke through Madara's Susano (given the Kisame feat)? Also, what if Madara had just been sitting there _because_ he was uninterested in engaging again until the Ten Tails was revived (which we know he was waiting for)?



*Considering Madara was using Susano'o at the very moment he was hit by Daytime Tiger*, absolutely. The next time we see Madara (which is an entire chapter AFTER the one following him get hit by Daytime Tiger), he is on the ground and *dirtied up* somehow. He took a direct hit from Daytime Tiger, there's no excusing it.



Mad Scientist said:


> This was a Nagato that was vitalized and capable of handling KCM Naruto and Bee at the same time. As far as I recall, only frail Nagato was stated to have mobility issues. Moreover, not only was Nagato out of the range of the smoke, I'm fairly certain that reanimated shinobi are programmed to defend automatically against attacks. That's how fast Totsuka Blade was.



Yes, a KCM Naruto and a Bee who were both acting like dumbasses instead of using their strategic skills at all. Kabuto outright cursed Nagato for his lack of mobility after he was no longer ''frail'' and had absorbed Gyuki's chakra, so you're wrong there. As for Nagato being out of the range of the smoke, pretty sure he...wasn't? As for reanimated shinobi being programmed to defend automatically against attacks, that's not the same as them knowing how to use their attacks to the best level.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 9, 2020)

Susano walls anything Gai tries to do, and then Gai gets clone feinted and genjutsu'd. 

Looking at the feet and fighting will leave him vulnerable, even if he said he's trained for it. How many times has he used it in actual combat against an actual Uchiha who specialises in genjutsu? 

Kakashi is by no means a good benchmark.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> Susano walls anything Gai tries to do, and then Gai gets clone feinted and genjutsu'd.



Daytime Tiger destroys Susano'o. Guy is not getting clone feinted and Genjutsu'd - he's too fast for that shit.


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## Sloan (Jun 9, 2020)

Final Jutsu said:


> Nagato got blitzed due to lack of mobility as was said by kabuto, and kabuto didnt even use nagatos sensory skills.  Not to mention the huge smoke blocking his view?



Doesn't Nagato have the ability to fly...?  Unless Kabuto didn't know of that ability of his(could be possible as he didn't use it in that fight).

Also can someone post the scan or tell me which chapter Guy hits Madara's Susano?  Thx.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 9, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> the circumstances weighed against Nagato,


You mean when he was blitzed by Totsuka Blade? If so, in what way?



Serene Grace said:


> also what do you believe 7 gated guy is less reflective than Nagato?


Do you believe that 6G Gai < KCM Naruto in reflexes? If 6G Gai < KCM Naruto and Nagato reacted to a point-blank Rasengan from him, perhaps it stands to reason that 7G Gai = Nagato, no? If that is the case, then due to Nagato not being able to react to Totsuka Blade at all, would it not stand to reason that 7G Gai would be tagged by it too?



Windmaster Sam said:


> *Considering Madara was using Susano'o at the very moment he was hit by Daytime Tiger*, absolutely. The next time we see Madara (which is an entire chapter AFTER the one following him get hit by Daytime Tiger), he is on the ground and *dirtied up* somehow. He took a direct hit from Daytime Tiger, there's no excusing it.


I was trying to look for a counter, but I concede that there is reasonable ground to assume his Susano was destroyed by the attack.



Windmaster Sam said:


> Being hit by it is irrelevant if Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame. We've seen *plenty of characters use powerful jutsu non-fatally* (e.g. Sasuke using Chidori against Bee and Jiraiya using Rasengan against a complete fodder), why would Guy be the exception?


Those feats speak for their durability (for instance, in your first example, we know that Bee is really durable). Daytime Tiger is much stronger than Morning Peacock, and it was larger than normal, and shot at Kisame, yet Kisame survived it.

You say that "Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame," but how did he expect Kisame to survive an attack that is much stronger than Asakujaku (and larger than normal) by throwing what is essentially a huge bomb right at Kisame? In other words, how was Gai trying "not to kill" Kisame?



Windmaster Sam said:


> Also, funny you bring up Morning Peacock, when* Morning Peacock did kill Kisame's clone *which had the* same body (and therefore durability) as the original*.


Not sure what's funny about that. Anyway, it's clear that Daytime Tiger is much stronger than that so it should have completely destroyed Kisame if it went straight for him.



Windmaster Sam said:


> Yes, a KCM Naruto and a Bee who were both acting like dumbasses instead of using their strategic skills at all. Kabuto outright cursed Nagato for his lack of mobility after he was no longer ''frail'' and had absorbed Gyuki's chakra, so you're wrong there. As for Nagato being out of the range of the smoke, pretty sure he...wasn't?


They are fast and were fighting for their life; Nagato was fast enough to react to a point-blank Rasengan and a blitz-attempt from Bee (who was fast enough to keep up with V1 Ay and KCM Naruto).

I don't have reason to believe that Kabuto was referring to vitalized Nagato because *A)* He only realised he was gone once he was sealed (i.e. I don't think he knows _exactly_ every detail of the battle, including Nagato taking Bee's chakra, which is part of the reason why he is all shocked when he lost control of Itachi) and *B)* I don't think Kabuto is able to see through his reanimations' eyes or know if their chakra has increased or decreased.

Nagato was definitely  the smoke.



Windmaster Sam said:


> As for reanimated shinobi being programmed to defend automatically against attacks, that's not the same as them knowing how to use their attacks to the best level.


Nagato didn't seem to be able to even perceive the attack, so I do not believe it matters whether he knew how best to attack/defend against it.



Sloan said:


> Also can someone post the scan or tell me which chapter Guy hits Madara's Susano? Thx.


I believe it is near the end of C608.



Final Jutsu said:


> Nagato got blitzed due to lack of mobility as was said by kabuto, and kabuto didnt even use nagatos sensory skills.





Final Jutsu said:


> Not to mention the huge smoke blocking his view?


He was  the smoke and had a pair of Rinnegan and was able to react to a point-blank KCM Rasengan.

I don't have reason to believe that Kabuto was referring to vitalized Nagato because *A)* He only realised he was gone once he was sealed (i.e. I don't think he knows _exactly_ every detail of the battle, including Nagato taking Bee's chakra, which is part of the reason why he is all shocked when he lost control of Itachi) and *B)* I don't think Kabuto is able to see through his reanimations' eyes or know if their chakra has increased or decreased.

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> You mean when he was blitzed by Totsuka Blade? If so, in what way?



How was Nagato blitzed by the Totsuka Blade when A) he couldn't see it coming due to the smoke, B) he couldn't dodge it anyway due to his lack of legs, and C) was being controlled by someone (Kabuto) who didn't know how to use his sensory abilities?

This is not a blitz, in any shape or form.



Mad Scientist said:


> Do you believe that 6G Gai < KCM Naruto in reflexes? If 6G Gai < KCM Naruto and Nagato reacted to a point-blank Rasengan from him, perhaps it stands to reason that 7G Gai = Nagato, no? If that is the case, then due to Nagato not being able to react to Totsuka Blade at all, would it not stand to reason that 7G Gai would be tagged by it too?



Read my last response. Also, KCM Naruto was outperformed by _Base Guy_ and Kakashi against Obito. KCM is pretty inconsistent.



Mad Scientist said:


> I was trying to look for a counter, but I concede that there is reasonable ground to assume his Susano was destroyed by the attack.



Glad we can agree.



Mad Scientist said:


> Those feats speak for their durability (for instance, in your first example, we know that Bee is really durable). Daytime Tiger is much stronger than Morning Peacock, and it was larger than normal, and shot at Kisame, yet Kisame survived it. You say that "Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame," but how did he expect Kisame to survive an attack that is much stronger than Asakujaku (and larger than normal) by throwing what is essentially a huge bomb right at Kisame? In other words, how was Gai trying "not to kill" Kisame?



I think it's safe to say Guy has encountered Kisame enough times (three times, in fact) to know what he can and cannot do without killing the latter. We also know for a fact Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame - he was outright told by Aoba or whoever the other ninja was to *capture the Akatsuki* *alive* for intelligence. The rest of this argument is just you being pedantic about a manga where...Pain sent a gigantic rhinoceros summon directly at the guy he was supposed to capture alive (*Naruto*). Deidara had no problem taking Gaara *alive* with explosives and Sasuke even used a technique meant for assassination to capture Bee *alive*. This is an issue of skill.



Mad Scientist said:


> They are fast and were fighting for their life; Nagato was fast enough to react to a point-blank Rasengan and a blitz-attempt from Bee (who was fast enough to keep up with V1 Ay and KCM Naruto).



And neither V1 Ay nor KCM Naruto is on par with 7G Guy in terms of speed.

Base Guy did better than Naruto against Obito.



Mad Scientist said:


> I don't have reason to believe that Kabuto was referring to vitalized Nagato because *A)* He only realised he was gone once he was sealed (i.e. I don't think he knows _exactly_ every detail of the battle, including Nagato taking Bee's chakra, which is part of the reason why he is all shocked when he lost control of Itachi) and *B)* I don't think Kabuto is able to see through his reanimations' eyes or know if their chakra has increased or decreased.



*Kabuto took direct control over the vitalized Nagato*, in case you've forgotten. He saw everything the Rinnegan user saw. He did this while being unaware of Nagato's full powers or limitations, as Itachi pointed out later on. If Nagato either fought using his own consciousness or Kabuto actually knew how to use him, things might've been different.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 9, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Daytime Tiger destroys Susano'o. Guy is not getting clone feinted and Genjutsu'd - he's too fast for that shit.



No, it doesn't destroy Susano. 

Also being fast doesn't mean you're immune to feints.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 9, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> No, it doesn't destroy Susano.
> 
> Also being fast doesn't mean you're immune to feints.



Tell that to Madara's Susano'o. Also, if you're fast enough, you_ are _immune to feints.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 9, 2020)

Hmm, Totsuka did blitz "Nagato" though. Or at the very least, it blitzed the same Nagato that countered KCM Naruto/B. The same Nagato, no matter who was in control was not able to use ST/Preta vs Totsuka. In any case, Edos were on autopilot to autodefend from attacks.



Also complaining "but smoke cloud" is not a great look for Nagato. First, the blade still had to come out of the smoke cloud and he couldn't react to that. Second, if smoke is all it takes to totsuka gg then that's easily doable whenever anyone uses a jutsu with even moderate D/C kicks up smoke or some other LOS blocker. Finally, Rinnegan sees chakra as evidenced when he saw Konoha's barrier during pain invasion and also because it's the evolution of the Sharingan anyway.




But I have a feeling the ones who claim that Rinnegan doesn't get Sharingan-chakra seeing abilities (in order to downplay Totsuka) somehow want to claim he gets the genjutsu defense capabilities


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## Sapherosth (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Tell that to Madara's Susano'o. Also, if you're fast enough, you_ are _immune to feints.



Where's the evidence that Madara's Susano is destroyed? The feats of daytime tiger vs Kisame is not enough to prove it can destroy a V3 Legged Susano. 

If it managed to destroy Susano, surely Madara would have complimented it or at least say something about its power. 

The only reason why the wood dragon was released was most likely because Madara had to concentrate on Susano or he was simply too far to control it due to being pushed away.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Jun 10, 2020)

Regarding actual topic


I don't think Afternoon Tiger busted Susanoo, now I'm not good at scaling the size of the explosions vs Kisame and vs Madara but they look similar in size?


If that's the case I don't see Madara being busted by it. And tbh given how important madara and beating him was at that time, I think he would have been shown having to regen if it was busted



More likely his Susanoo was pushed away which is still impressive



I'd say it depends on who outlasts who, Gai can probably hit Itachi from the backside of the Susanoo but I don't see it breaking. It tanked Kirin and I don't see Kisame not being vaporized by that attack



Either way high diff


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> yet Kisame survived it.


Because he was supposed to survive it. 
Period.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> Where's the evidence that Madara's Susano is destroyed? The feats of daytime tiger vs Kisame is not enough to prove it can destroy a V3 Legged Susano.
> 
> If it managed to destroy Susano, surely Madara would have complimented it or at least say something about its power.
> 
> The only reason why the wood dragon was released was most likely because Madara had to concentrate on Susano or he was simply too far to control it due to being pushed away.



*Considering Madara was using Susano'o at the very moment he was hit by Daytime Tiger*, there is evidence. The next time we see Madara (which is an _entire chapter AFTER the one following him get hit_ by Daytime Tiger), he is on the ground and *dirtied up* somehow. He took a direct hit from Daytime Tiger, there's no excusing it. Itachi doesn't even have a V3 legged Susano'o so I don't know what you're talking about. Guy also wasn't trying to kill Kisame, so trying to use that as ''proof'' is a bad idea. When Guy wanted to kill Kisame, Morning Peacock (which is_ far _weaker) was enough. The rest is just you assuming stuff.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2020)

Gai might be able to beat Base Itachi but that's about it because once the MS jutsu comes out Gai doesn't stand a chance as Susanoo is gonna wall him and Ama is gonna burn him down


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Gai might be able to beat Base Itachi but that's about it because once the MS jutsu comes out Gai doesn't stand a chance as Susanoo is gonna wall him and Ama is gonna burn him down



Lmao, you're joking here, right? The Seventh Gate could repel Amaterasu and Daytime Tiger would destroy Susano'o.

Also, lmao at Guy ''might be able'' to beat Base Itachi. Guy would *wreck *Base Itachi.

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## Serene Grace (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> You mean when he was blitzed by Totsuka Blade? If so, in what way?


Well it’s good to note that:

(1) Nagato lacked the capacity to walk to his fullest


*Spoiler*: __ 








(2) His sharred vision that compensated for his lack of mobility was obstructed when Nagato was busy with the Jins


*Spoiler*: __ 








(3) Kabuto was unaware Nagato could sense chakra at all nonetheless at such a proficient level

The way I see it. Itachi was a fine enough Shinobi that he was able to manipulate this to his advantage.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Kabuto more or less agrees with this assessment. The context to me points towards Itachi simply exploiting Nagato’s weakness and vulnerability in that instance. This doesn’t really  mean that if a match between Nagato and Itachi happens the former is just helpless against Totsuka


Mad Scientist said:


> Do you believe that 6G Gai < KCM Naruto in reflexes? If 6G Gai < KCM Naruto and Nagato reacted to a point-blank Rasengan from him, perhaps it stands to reason that 7G Gai = Nagato, no? If that is the case, then due to Nagato not being able to react to Totsuka Blade at all, would it not stand to reason that 7G Gai would be tagged by it too?


I don’t believe KCM Naruto used his top speed against Nagato, the best we could scale Nagato to is above Base Bee and around V2 Bee in terms of reflective capacity, outside of that I personally do not see anything indicating that he is faster than or reflective as someone like Guy


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Serene Grace said:


> Well it’s good to note that:
> 
> (1) Nagato lacked the capacity to walk to his fullest
> 
> ...



Agree with all of this.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Lmao, you're joking here, right? The Seventh Gate could repel Amaterasu



No it can't, it's not ST which has ninjutsu repelling properties.



> and Daytime Tiger would destroy Susano'o.



No it wouldn't, it couldn't even kill Kisame.



> Also, lmao at Guy ''might be able'' to beat Base Itachi. Guy would *wreck *Base Itachi.



Lol sure he would just like he would wreck some Jounin like the swordsmen, oh wait....

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Jun 10, 2020)

3T Itachi > 7G Gai


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Bonly said:


> No it can't, it's not ST which has ninjutsu repelling properties.



The Seventh Gate was able to push back the water around Guy, so it can absolutely blow _fire _away. Fire is way less dense.




Bonly said:


> No it wouldn't, it couldn't even kill Kisame.



Yeah, because...Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame. Were you even thinking when you made this comment?

Never mind the fact Guy already killed Kisame's equally durable clone with the much weaker Morning Peacock, when he was going for the kill.



Bonly said:


> sure he would just like he would wreck some Jounin like the swordsmen, oh wait....



No proof he used the Seventh Gate against the swordsmen, oh wait...


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> The Seventh Gate was able to push back the water around Guy, so it can absolutely blow _fire _away. Fire is way less dense.



Normal water isn't a Ninjutsu. Can you show his aura blowing away any Ninjutsu?




> Yeah, because...Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame. Were you even thinking when you made this comment?
> 
> Never mind the fact Guy already killed Kisame's equally durable clone with the much weaker Morning Peacock, when he was going for the kill.



Gai can't adjust the power behind Hirudora so him trying to kill Kisame or not doesn't matter to it.



> No proof he used the Seventh Gate against the swordsmen, oh wait...



Because he was restricted from using the 7th Gate right, oh wait...


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Normal water isn't a Ninjutsu. Can you show his aura blowing away any Ninjutsu?




What does being Ninjutsu have to do with anything? Amaterasu is still susceptible to the rules of physics. It's fucking fire, density wise.



Bonly said:


> Gai can't adjust the power behind Hirudora so him trying to kill Kisame or not doesn't matter to it.




Yeah, you just made this up. You have zero evidence to make this assertion.

On the other hand, it is a fact that Guy destroyed Madara's Susano'o and it is a fact Guy was trying to _spare _Kisame.



Bonly said:


> Because he was restricted from using the 7th Gate right, oh wait...



Too bad there's still no proof Guy used it, and the seven swordsmen would maul Base Itachi to death anyway, so...


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> How was Nagato blitzed by the Totsuka Blade when A) he couldn't see it coming due to the smoke, B) he couldn't dodge it anyway due to his lack of legs, and C) was being controlled by someone (Kabuto) who didn't know how to use his sensory abilities?
> 
> This is not a blitz, in any shape or form.



He was outside the smoke and had a pair of rinnegan.
He had other abilities and body parts, not just his legs. Besides, I don't have reason to believe his legs were frail at that point.
I do not believe Kabuto was controlling every movement. He was probably doing something akin to giving orders (read below). Reanimations are automatically set to defend against attacks.



Windmaster Sam said:


> Read my last response. Also, KCM Naruto was outperformed by _Base Guy_ and Kakashi against Obito. KCM is pretty inconsistent.


KCM Naruto was outperformed in taijutsu/taijutsu-like CQC, which is quite natural because it is Gai we're dealing with here, and he had Twin Fangs. Kakashi's feats speak for himself.

How is KCM inconsistent?



Windmaster Sam said:


> Glad we can agree.






Windmaster Sam said:


> I think it's safe to say Guy has encountered Kisame enough times (three times, in fact) to know what he can and cannot do without killing the latter. We also know for a fact Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame - he was outright told by Aoba or whoever the other ninja was to *capture the Akatsuki* *alive* for intelligence. The rest of this argument is just you being pedantic about a manga where...Pain sent a gigantic rhinoceros summon directly at the guy he was supposed to capture alive (*Naruto*). Deidara had no problem taking Gaara *alive* with explosives and Sasuke even used a technique meant for assassination to capture Bee *alive*. This is an issue of skill.


I don't think Pain thought a Rhino would outright kill a healthy Naruto who blitzed Asura Path. And even if Naruto was incapacitated, that probably would have been good enough, as it was the case with Gaara and could have been for Bee too.

It isn't me being pedantic, since the point about Hirudora's power was stressed and illustrated, _*almost back-to-back*_ even, and we already know what Asakujaku can do. In other words, it was strongly established that Hirudora would have _*completely*_ destroyed Kisame, but the fact is that on the very next chapter it *did not*. I don't believe Kishimoto thought "the fans will just let this _*huge*_ contradiction slide..." I believe that Kishimoto is more intelligent than that, perhaps wanting us to figure it out for ourselves. If you're saying that Gai wasn't trying to kill Kisame is the explanation here, I am asking you to explain the contradiction. Of course... you don't _have_ to; it could perhaps be ruled out as PIS, in which case I would no longer have any argument for Hirudora not being able to hurt Itachi's Susano (since we've already agreed it busted Madara's V3 Susano).

However, there is still the matter of Yata Mirror to deal with. Yata Mirror would repel Hirudora, no?



Windmaster Sam said:


> And neither V1 Ay nor KCM Naruto is on par with 7G Guy in terms of speed.
> 
> Base Guy did better than Naruto against Obito.


Perhaps pre-clones KCM Naruto would be on par with 7G Gai in speed? *Explanation:* An unmastered KCM Naruto could already blitz Kisame. Granted, this Kisame wasn't at full strength, but I do think his statement of how fast Naruto was has large truth to it given Bee's statement that Naruto looked like a yellow flash. KCM Naruto then gets _even faster_ than this, which is the kind of speed that V1 Ay operates at. At this point, this is the kind of speed 6G Gai was operating at (right?) given how 6G Gai blitzed Kisame in much the same manner but seemed a little more proficient compared to that earlier KCM Naruto. However, KCM Naruto outsped even _V2 Ay_ who is so fast he goes from being contended with by 3T FKS Sasuke to not even being able to be tracked by MS FKS Sasuke. So I agree that V1 Ay doesn't operate at 7G Gai's speed (though 6G Gai does), but perhaps pre-clones KCM Naruto does?

Nagato reacted to a point-blank Rasengan from pre-clones KCM Naruto fighting for his life, but wasn't even able to move a muscle before being pierced by Itachi's Totsuka Blade.



Windmaster Sam said:


> *Kabuto took direct control over the vitalized Nagato*, in case you've forgotten. He did this while being unaware of Nagato's full powers or limitations, as Itachi pointed out later on. If Nagato either fought using his own consciousness or Kabuto actually knew how to use him, things might've been different.


Zabuza lost his personality when Kabuto tightened the control on him. The same thing could have been done to Nagato. Kabuto could have simply been giving him orders. When Nagato was pierced by Totsuka Blade, Nagato's personality could have briefly come back, possibly without Kabuto being aware of it.

Still, Nagato blocking KCM Naruto's Rasengan is a feat due to his own skills. 



Serene Grace said:


> Well it’s good to note that:
> 
> (1) Nagato lacked the capacity to walk to his fullest
> 
> ...


I appreciate that frail Nagato couldn't move properly, but vitalized Nagato should have been able to, no? That scan doesn't imply Nagato couldn't walk properly.



Serene Grace said:


> (2) His sharred vision that compensated for his lack of mobility was obstructed when Nagato was busy with the Jins





Serene Grace said:


> (3) Kabuto was unaware Nagato could sense chakra at all nonetheless at such a proficient level
> 
> The way I see it. Itachi was a fine enough Shinobi that he was able to manipulate this to his advantage.
> 
> ...


Well, I don't know exactly what you mean, but I think that the shared vision had nothing to do with vitalized Nagato's own mobility. Not sure if you agree with this.



Serene Grace said:


> I don’t believe KCM Naruto used his top speed against Nagato, the best we could scale Nagato to is above Base Bee and around V2 Bee in terms of reflective capacity, outside of that I personally do not see anything indicating that he is faster than or reflective as someone like Guy


I believe that when Naruto's life was in danger, he used whatever fastest speed possible that he could command to try to blitz Nagato with his Rasengan.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> What does being Ninjutsu have to do with anything? Amaterasu is still susceptible to the rules of physics. It's fucking fire, density wise.



Ninjutsu means it's magic which doesn't always play by the rules of physics. Last I check you can't punch fire away and yet Madara using "fucking fire" had five balls of fire punched away by Tsunade. So either nut up and show the 7th Gate repelling some Ninjutsu or your point of the aura blowing off Ama, as you would say below, is made up.




> Yeah, you just made this up. You have zero evidence to make this assertion.



Where is it stated that he can adjust the power of Hirudora because so far all I've seen is the manga say it's his fastest punch and to assume he can adjust the power is something you would have to make up to fit your narrative that he was holding back against Kisame. 



> On the other hand, it is a fact that Guy destroyed Madara's Susano'o and it is a fact Guy was trying to _spare _Kisame.



Show me a destroyed Susanoo then.




> Too bad there's still no proof Guy used it, and the seven swordsmen would maul Base Itachi to death anyway, so...



Doesn't matter if there's proof or not. When we use your half baked logic Gai should've lolstomped then, hell by your half baked logic Gai should've lolstomped Kisame when the first met at the start of part two instead of being overpowered. Point is Gai doesn't start in the 7th Gate and it's not his first choice to do such so. Just because you want Gai to win a fight doesn't mean he's gonna fight in the fanfic way you want him to in order to 'wreck" Itachi just like he didn't do such against multiple other people, meaning he can still possibly lose to Base Itachi whether you like it or not.


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## Mad Scientist (Jun 10, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Regarding actual topic
> 
> I don't think Afternoon Tiger busted Susanoo, now I'm not good at scaling the size of the explosions vs Kisame and vs Madara but they look similar in size?
> 
> ...


If the likes of a single punch from Tsunade can crack his Susano, Hirudora can definitely bust his entire V3 Susano, and it's implied. 



Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Because he was supposed to survive it.
> Period.


That doesn't explain the contradiction: Gai threw a "nuclear bomb" at Kisame and was simultaneously trying "not" to kill him?

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 10, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Ninjutsu means it's magic which doesn't always play by the rules of physics. *Last I check you can't punch fire away and yet Madara using "fucking fire" had five balls of fire punched away by Tsunade*. So either nut up and show the 7th Gate repelling some Ninjutsu or your point of the aura blowing off Ama, as you would say below, is made up.



Imagine thinking _punching fireballs away _somehow supports your argument against..._blowing flames away_. The burden of proof is on you to prove Guy can't repel Amaterasu with his aura.



Bonly said:


> Where is it stated that he can adjust the power of Hirudora because so far all I've seen is the manga say it's his fastest punch and to assume he can adjust the power is something you would have to make up to fit your narrative that he was holding back against Kisame.



*We know Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame, so he by definition was holding back*. It's really not that hard.

Also, I don't see why you think Guy can't adjust the power of..._a fucking punch_. The burden of proof is on you, kiddo, to prove me wrong. Seriously, you seem determined to sound stupid at this point.



Bonly said:


> Show me a destroyed Susanoo then.



After Madara's Susano'o was hit by Daytime Tiger, Madara disappeared entire chapter and did not reappear until...the end of the chapter after that. When he did, *he didn't have Susano'o around him and was in a separate location, dirtied up*.


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## Bonly (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Imagine thinking _punching fireballs away _somehow supports your argument against..._blowing flames away_. The burden of proof is on you to prove Guy can't repel Amaterasu with his aura.



Not sure if trolling or just stupid. Burden of proof falls on the one making the claim and that's you boy. You claimed the Aura is gonna repel a Ninjutsu so get to proving that it can repel a Ninjutsu with actual examples boy. Proof that fire has the exact same density in the manga as it does in real life boy. Otherwise you're just making up abilities for Gai. 



*



			We know Guy wasn't trying to kill Kisame, so he by definition was holding back
		
Click to expand...

*


> . It's really not that hard.
> 
> Also, I don't see why you think Guy can't adjust the power of..._a fucking punch_. The burden of proof is on you, kiddo, to prove me wrong. Seriously, you seem determined to sound stupid at this point.



Listen boy I asked for a statement or anything from the manga that backs up your claim, not your justification for why you think of such. So I'll ask once again. Where in the manga is it stated that the power behind Hirudora can be adjusted? Where in the DB is it stated? Because last I checked the Hirudora is made by his fastest punched, not a uppercut, not a chop, that his 2 percent speed of a punch but his fastest so prove that his fastest punch can adjust the power of Hirudora. If you can't back up your claim then you're just making up abilities yet again.




> After Madara's Susano'o was hit by Daytime Tiger, Madara disappeared entire chapter and did not reappear until...the end of the chapter after that. When he did, *he didn't have Susano'o around him and was in a separate location, dirtied up*.



Sorry boy but this is your opinion on what happened which is just that, an opinion which I didn't ask for. So again show me a destroyed Susanoo. Unless... is it a case that you actually can't do it that is and your once again adding to Gai's powers? Because that's not proof nor a fact that Gai destroyed his Susanoo when Madara has in canon been shown to chill from afar and sit on his ass and relax like against the Gokage.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Sufex (Jun 10, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> The physical pain felt during the seventh gate should be sufficient to dissipate the genjutsu. Being under the seventh (and eighth) gate probably gives you a permanent kai.


Never thought about this. Logically you should be right.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Skywalker (Jun 10, 2020)

Gai kicks Itachi in half. Much like his student did to a stronger Madara.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 10, 2020)

Mad Scientist said:


> That doesn't explain the contradiction: Gai threw a "nuclear bomb" at Kisame and was simultaneously trying "not" to kill him?


Yes.. Pretty much. It's just like itachi throwing unextinguishable flames that eat flames at sasuke while not trying to kill him. These are ninja techniques that can be controlled by the ninja, not mechanical or scientific weapons that once launched cannot be controlled. So your comparison there's is a bit off. That explains why you are confused. 
If Gai wanted Kisame dead, he'd be dead after the hirudora detonation. Gai had him in his mercy pretty much. Yet he chose to take him back alive.
That clearly explains Gai's intentions, even if you missed the part where he was explicitly told not ot kill Kisame and bring him back alive.


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## Jad (Jun 10, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Ninjutsu means it's magic which doesn't always play by the rules of physics. Last I check you can't punch fire away and yet Madara using "fucking fire" had five balls of fire punched away by Tsunade. So either nut up and show the 7th Gate repelling some Ninjutsu or your point of the aura blowing off Ama, as you would say below, is made up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just wanted to chime in.

ST did not repel Shadow Clone Jutsu. So the idea that ST repelling Ameterasu because it's ninjutsu has no subtance.


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## LightningForce (Jun 10, 2020)

Jad said:


> Just wanted to chime in.
> 
> ST did not repel Shadow Clone Jutsu. So the idea that ST repelling Ameterasu because it's ninjutsu has no subtance.



Kabuto-controlled Nagato literally did just that after Nagato got one-shot by Amaterasu.

So Guy flexes his Gates & could arguably push back Amaterasu.

Literally Amaterasu is a joke. Gaara & Madara were able to counter it just by taking off the clothes.

That shit couldn’t burn through Karin’s clothes either IIRC

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## LightningForce (Jun 10, 2020)

I just remembered. Look what basic Kurama V1 cloak did to Amaterasu.

*Link Removed*



Yeah I’m convinced Amaterasu isn’t getting through Guy’s pure taijutsu aura that could evaporate a lake no less.

Reactions: Like 2


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 10, 2020)

Guy wins, all he has to do is throw his arms forward and BFR at the least gives him victory here

Reactions: Like 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 10, 2020)

Guy busts Madara's V3 Susano'o with Hirudora, sending it flying.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Bee states wood dragon got weaker.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Madara is seen without his Susano'o in the aftersmoke.

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Hirudora either busts thru Susano'o & catches Itachi in its after-explosion. Or he gets BFR'd so far away he'll join Team Rocket at the same time they get blasted away by Pikachu.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lyren (Jun 10, 2020)

Shitachi clone feints him and burns him with amaterasu


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Also, I don't see why you think Guy can't adjust the power of..._a fucking punch_. The burden of proof is on you, kiddo, to prove me wrong. Seriously, you seem determined to sound stupid at this point.


Don't forget Kisame needed his strongest move Super Shark Bomb to take most of the damage from Hirudora or else Kisame would've easily died 


Windmaster Sam said:


> After Madara's Susano'o was hit by Daytime Tiger, Madara disappeared entire chapter and did not reappear until...the end of the chapter after that. When he did, *he didn't have Susano'o around him and was in a separate location, dirtied up*.


With this it's pretty fucking obvious Hirudora destroyed it right? Wrong. Wait until you see how many spectacular posters have to say otherwise


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 10, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Yes, a KCM Naruto and a Bee who were both acting like dumbasses instead of using their strategic skills at all. Kabuto outright cursed Nagato for his lack of mobility after he was no longer ''frail'' and had absorbed Gyuki's chakra, so you're wrong there. As for Nagato being out of the range of the smoke, pretty sure he...wasn't? As for reanimated shinobi being programmed to defend automatically against attacks, that's not the same as them knowing how to use their attacks to the best level.



This is deja vu, isn't it my fellow @ShinAkuma

The whole point of Edo Tensei is that EVEN IF THE CASTER DIES, the undead bodies will continue to respond to the instructions in the tags, which is to AUTOMATICALLY respond to enemy attacks. This was established multiple times by A3 and Gengetsu. Kabuto has three levels of control: one he lets them operate as they please as long as they obey his orders, two he can remove their personality like he did to the 7 ninja swordsmnen, three he can take over their minds all together and make the decisions. But for reflex responses? The Edo Tensei are always programmed to react to attacks like how they would when they were alive. The only Reason Nagato didn't defend against Amaterasu for instance is because he was still programmed to see Itachi as an ally. Once Kabuto fixed that Nagato was able to attack Itachi as well.

Nagato's mobility is an excuse to save face from the topic at hand. It's true that he couldn't move well and that affected how the battle progressed as a whole, it limited Kabuto's options,  but since when was his lack of motion in his legs an inhibitor from REACTING to a SPECIFIC  enemy jutsu with Shinra Tensei or Preta Path, jutsus that only require a mental reaction ?  He did so to Bee AND KCM Naruto multiple times. Nagato's legs can't move efficiently because he lost his muscle memory- they were fucked by Hanzo and then he was a cripple for like a decade. You can clearly see the POV zoom in on Nagato's legs when Kabuto says this.  And he also wouldn't have lost if he could break out of the Totsuka Gourd, so saying mobility is the only reason he lost is fallacious. Kabuto doesn't need to tell us all the details- but he did need to mention that Nagato's legs were messed up even after Nagato absorbed V2 chakra for further context on his actions.

The reason he was PUT into that position was because of his lack of mobility COMBINED with the fact that earlier in the fight, Itachi attacked his blindspots of the shared vision, the shared vision that was designed to make up for the mobility, allowing him to ambush Nagato and save Naruto and Bee. But after, he ultimately lost because
A: Chibaku Tensei wasn't good enough to survive their attacks.
B: He couldn't react to Totsuka + smokescreen
C:  Kabuto was weaving a seal to try to get Nagato to break out of Totsuka but it didn't work, Totsuka completely overrode Kabuto's tag and overpowered Nagato.

If Nagato was strong enough to break out of Totsuka, then that fight would have ended differently. So let's look at everything objectively.

@Shark and @Rock Lee like a Hurricane  for instance thinks I'm in the wrong for thinking that Itachi can solo Nagato because Itachi had KCM Naruto/Bee for backup and distractions, which is true, but it neglects what we saw happen with Totsuka. First of all, I suggest relooking at that scan in Chapter 552. Nagato ISN'T STANDING INSIDE the smoke. He is Standing OUTSIDE of it, a distance of at least ten meters from the smoke, his head and eyes angled at twelve o clock. Its obvious because you can see there are VISIBLE TREES in BETWEEN  Nagato and the smokescreen. Then,  His head only jerks upward once his body was struck by the blade, evident by the SFX and the blurgit movement lines on his head. Blurgit movement lines are curved lines that indicate small movement, in this case his head was MOVED upward by the blade, so no he wasn't "gawking" at CBT.  Before the Blade strikes him, he is looking at the EXACT spot where the blade emerged, waiting to respond to enemy attacks.




 This scenario is no different than the various other times Nagato has had to deal with smokescreens in the PA. He had to deal with Kakashi's and Akimichi's attacks coming from underground in smokescreens and reacted to everything except for the hidden chain during ST cooldown. He reacted to SM Naruto's attacks coming out of smokescreens WITH AND *WITHOUT   Shared Vision.  And this is all with slower Pain Bodies who are slower at reacting with Six paths ninjutsu compared to Nagato's real body according to KCM Naruto. *Why? Because a smokescreen only reduces visibility up until the point that the attack EMERGES from the smokescreen. It reduces the distance from which you can see the attack coming, but the attack wasn't invisible once it exited. The Totsuka blade still needed to travel about ten meters of unobstructed air space before it reached Nagato.
_
Here are all Scans for proof of my claims:


*Spoiler*: debunked 














_
*Spoiler*: _debunked_ 













Naruto Chapter 171 pg 3
Here even against Jiraiya, we see Pain at least registering a reaction mark to the Lion's Mane BEFORE he gets tagged by it.
Inb4 the smokescreen wasn't thick enough- it was, as the POV  for the panel doesn't show Jiraiya or a silhouette of him, only the Lion's mane exiting the smoke. Inb4 smokescreens always dissipate quickly when a summon is forced to desummon-false, we see Orochimaru and Tsunade taking physical actions while the smoke from Manda's poof is still present. It was decaying but not instantly. You can consider it a SPEED FEAT for Jiraiya that he could launch his Lion's Mane quickly enough before the smokescreen decayed quickly enough.

_And we have seen  such as in the case of P1 Sharingan Kakashi, the sharingan could still see shuriken traveling through Zabuza's thick mist but only at the last second,  or Zabuza's physical body when they appeared immediately in front of him.

_
But ThirdRidoku, if Totsuka's speed is part of why Nagato got hit then why wasn't it explicitly stated? The same way it was never stated in the Kisame fight that V2 Bee was fast. And before you say that we were already told Bee was fast. we were told that by scrubs he was beating in a 1v4 fight. Gaara and P1 Kakashi  also said that Base  P1 Rock Lee was fast. But does that mean he is fast by P2 Jounin standards? No. Kisame isn't opposed to saying it when he thinks a character is fast. He said so about 6th Gate Gai TWICE. And he said KCM Naruto was fast. Yet he said nothing of note about V2 Bee's speed , who was quite logically the second fastest shinobi alive at that time only to A4, maybe he is also slower than 7th Gate Gai, but that was it.


We don't NEED Kisame to tell us V2 Bee is fast. WE SAW he was fast- anyone with functional eyesight can See Kisame could barely react to V2's charge. That doesn't mean we say V2 Bee can't be fast just cause Kisame didn't explicitly say he was fast. We CAN SEE that Totsuka was too fast for Nagato block with either Shinra Tensei or Preta Path, period.

We already know Totsuka had some speed going for it because it tagged Orochimaru in the middle of his sentence, with no LOS blockers,  and he seemed confused as he said "eh?", despite the fact he knew he was in a fight with Itachi, and was looking right at him as he was talking to him- he seemed to be caught off guard.  Before you say hurdur, Flashback Kabuto also blitz'd flashback Orochimaru with a chakra scapel and he likes jobbing and tanking hits because of his immortality,  keep in mind, there was no timeframe there. the timeframe here is that Orochimaru couldn't utter his next word before Totsuka was in his chest. Now with that said, Orochimaru isn't exactly the reaction speed king but that feature was SUGGESTIVE of totsuka being fast, unless you think Orochimaru said "eh?" and just stopped his own sentence for the lolz. Even if he didn't care about the attack because he didn't think it would hurt him, it doesn't explain his surprise, again he is in a fight lol, he was just attacking Itachi with his hydras just a moment before, which were also getting casually blitz'd by the same blade.
_
_
The point is, The smokescreen had an effect, but that not the effect you're claiming. If you take away the smokescreen, it means Nagato sees the blade coming from a longer distance, and he can theoretically have a higher chance of reacting. But it seems that the blade was just straight up Faster than the Eye from ten meters for his reflexes. He only reacted once it went through his chest. Its no different than Rock Lee being faster than the eye to the P1 Genin during the chunin exams once he took off his weights. Choji literally said he couldn't perceive Rock lee's movements a all.

So when it comes to 7th Gate Gai, it depends if you think Gai has significantly better reflexes/faster perception speed than Nagato.
Itachi has his own ways of creating smokescreens/LOS Blockers through stunning with crow clones or Great Shadow Clone explosion. These stun AND create smokescreen that make it hard to see Totsuka coming until the last second. Itachi doesn't have to rely on speed, he can feint Gai before launching it, to further lessen the chance he sees it coming in time. Itachi is still a lightning timer, and easily has handseal speed that is on the same tier as 7th Gate's Gai movement speed, and as a kid he spared with Shisui of the Body Flicker, so he is accustomed to fighting people with higher movement speed than himself.


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## Perfect Susano (Jun 10, 2020)

The idea of Gai putting Madara out of commission doesn't really hold any weight. It's basically stated that Madara could've gotten back in the fight afterwards. He made an effort at capturing the Jinchuriki, but did not use full effort since he wanted to test the Ten Tails' power.



_mada: I wanted to seize them before the juubi would be revived…\\ they are better than I thought\\
obi: I want to begin the infinite tsukiyomi’s ritual as soon as possible\\
mada: … to summon such enormous genjutsu on the moon will take time\\
mada: they will get in the way with the technique…\\ things would have gone smoother if you would have disposed of them with the demonic statue’s strength\\
mada: … am I wrong…?\\
*obi: … madara… it looks to me that you just want to use the power of the juubi\\
obi: … that’s why you made this happen on purpose…*\\
*_
As far as the Wood Release binding weakening, that too could have also been Madara just not caring anymore to maintain his jutsu since he decided on testing the Ten Tails' power against the group. That isn't explicitly stated though, so I won't outright claim that was the case.

Itachi wins. Hirudora isn't capable of breaching V4 Susano'o, especially not with the Yata Mirror. Gai would gas out from the gates while Itachi would still have Susano'o up. Then Amaterasu finishes him off from there.

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## Jad (Jun 11, 2020)

Yata mirror changes to the propety of the attack. How does changing a shield to air or an explosive air help Itachi 

Itachi is doubly fucked if he blocks air with air...or an explosion of air with a shield made out of air exploding infront of him...


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 11, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> First of all, I suggest relooking at that scan in Chapter 552. Nagato ISN'T STANDING INSIDE the smoke. He is Standing OUTSIDE of it, a distance of at least ten meters from the smoke, his head and eyes angled at twelve o clock. Its obvious because you can see there are VISIBLE TREES in BETWEEN Nagato and the smokescreen.


As long as there is smoke blocking what you want to see.... It does not matter where Nagato is standing... The smoke is still blocking his Los.


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Not sure if trolling or just stupid.



I know, I can't tell if you're trolling or just stupid either.




Bonly said:


> Burden of proof falls on the one making the claim and that's you boy. *You claimed the Aura is gonna repel a Ninjutsu so get to proving that it can repel a Ninjutsu with actual examples boy*. Proof that fire has the exact same density in the manga as it does in real life boy. Otherwise you're just making up abilities for Gai.


 

I think the burden of proof is on the person trying to argue _*against basic physics*_ without any proof. Heck, your last example of Tsunade punching fireballs is an argument _against_ your ''lolz Amaterasu cannot be blown away or deflected by physical force'' BS.




Bonly said:


> Listen boy I asked for a statement or anything from the manga that backs up your claim, not your justification for why you think of such. So I'll ask once again. *Where in the manga is it stated that the power behind Hirudora can be adjusted? Where in the DB is it stated?* Because last I checked the Hirudora is made by his fastest punched, not a uppercut, not a chop, that his 2 percent speed of a punch but his fastest so prove that his fastest punch can adjust the power of Hirudora. If you can't back up your claim then you're just making up abilities yet again.



The simple fact that Guy was instructed to capture Kisame alive and did so with a stronger jutsu than Morning Peacock (which killed Kisame's equally durable clone) is proof enough. The simple fact that Daytime Tiger is a punch (and even *complete idiots know that it's completely possible to adjust the power behind a punch - to say nothing of a fucking Taijutsu master*). This manga is _chock full of people adjusting lethal techniques for non-lethal uses_ - e.g. Sasuke using Chidori against B, Jiraiya using Rasengan against a complete fodder who wasn't even a ninja, Tsunade using her strength against Sakura, and so on.




Bonly said:


> Sorry boy but this is your opinion on what happened which is just that, an opinion which I didn't ask for. So again show me a destroyed Susanoo. Unless... is it a case that you actually can't do it that is and your once again adding to Gai's powers? Because that's not proof nor a fact that Gai destroyed his Susanoo when Madara has in canon been shown to chill from afar and sit on his ass and relax like against the Gokage.



Yeah, you're full of shit here. Guy's Daytime Tiger destroyed Madara's Susano'o, which is proven by Madara not being seen until _*almost two chapters *_later and that too _*dirtied up *_when he wasn't before. Unless you think he rolled around in the dirt for no apparent reason, it's pretty clear his Susano'o was destroyed and he knocked around with him.

Also, do not call me ''boy''. Do not talk down to me, you lying, pompous prick.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> Snip



So from what I just read boy, basically once again you brought your opinion on how you think Gai's abilities work and how you think Susanoo was destroyed but failed to provide a single shred of actual evidence from the manga such as statements or anything from the databooks to support your claims. I'm not interested in the made up abilities and feats you want to give Gai so come back when you can actually provide manga evidence rather then your baseless opinion. Better luck next time boy

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

Bonly said:


> So from what I just read boy, *basically once again you brought your opinion on how you think Gai's abilities work and how you think Susanoo was destroyed but failed to provide a single shred of actual evidence from the manga such as statements or anything from the databooks to support your claims*



Lmao, are you this fucking dense? You are deliberately ignoring *basic physics*, deliberately ignoring *Guy killing Kisame's equally durable clone with a much weaker attack than Daytime Tiger*, deliberately ignoring Madara being* scuffed up and dirty* the next time we see him after he is hit by Daytime Tiger (which, again, is like t_wo chapters later_), and deliberately ignoring common sense (even a normal person is able to control the strength of his or her punches, to say nothing of a fucking Taijutsu specialist) to push your stupid ass and intellectually narrative. I swear, Uchiha fanboys and Itachi fanboys specifically are too stupid.

You're not very smart. You're a failure at critical reasoning, and I'm sure you failed high school too. All you know is wanking Itachi.


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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2020)

Draco Bolton said:


> The physical pain felt during the seventh gate should be sufficient to dissipate the genjutsu.



Fanfiction. If the Gates were able to counter Genjutsu, Gai would not have needed to develop an entire fighting style around looking at the opponent's feats to counter Kakashi's Sharingan.

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

Matto said:


> Fanfiction. If the Gates were able to counter Genjutsu, Gai would not have needed to develop an entire fighting style around looking at the opponent's feats to counter Kakashi's Sharingan.



To be fair, the Seventh Gate is kind of a desperation move and severely taxes Guy's body, so having a less chakra intensive way to deal with Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't mean the pain of the Eight Gates potentially couldn't override Tsukuyomi.

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## Final Jutsu (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> To be fair, the Seventh Gate is kind of a desperation move and severely taxes Guy's body, so having a less chakra intensive way to deal with Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't mean the pain of the Eight Gates potentially couldn't override Tsukuyomi.



Gai has strict nindo requirements for each gate.  It could be that he simply never reached those when fighting against Kakashi.

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## Mithos (Jun 11, 2020)

Windmaster Sam said:


> To be fair, the Seventh Gate is kind of a desperation move and severely taxes Guy's body, so having a less chakra intensive way to deal with Sharingan Genjutsu doesn't mean the pain of the Eight Gates potentially couldn't override Tsukuyomi.



_Tsukuyomi _was portrayed as virtually uncounterable, except by another Sharingan, because of the mental damage it inflicts. The Gates have given us no reason, mechanically or portrayal/hype-wise, to suggest they even counter regular Genjutsu, let alone _Sharingan: Genjutsu_ or _Tsukuyomi _of all things.

Gai is not immune or resistant to Genjutsu. That's why he went out of his way to develop a difficult to master style learning to anticipate an opponent's movements from their feet. And while that may help against _Sharingan: Genjutsu_, what would he do if Itachi casts non-Sharingan Genjutsu similar to the kind that Kurenai uses?

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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 11, 2020)

Matto said:


> _Tsukuyomi _was portrayed as virtually uncounterable, except by another Sharingan, because of the mental damage it inflicts. The Gates have given us no reason, mechanically or portrayal/hype-wise, to suggest they even counter regular Genjutsu, let alone _Sharingan: Genjutsu_ or _Tsukuyomi _of all things.
> 
> Gai is not immune or resistant to Genjutsu. That's why he went out of his way to develop a difficult to master style learning to anticipate an opponent's movements from their feet. And while that may help against _Sharingan: Genjutsu_, what would he do if Itachi casts non-Sharingan Genjutsu similar to the kind that Kurenai uses?



I think you're depending too much on portrayal, Matto. Tsunade was able to cure the damage done to both Kakashi and Sasuke by Tsukuyomi very, very easily. The idea that the Eight Gates' release of powerful chakra _couldn't_ do something similar (especially when releases of chakra and pain are *canonically *capable of disrupting Genjutsu according to Lady Chiyo) seems somewhat fanciful. As for Itachi's non-Sharingan Genjutsu, that would likely be useless or counterproductive against Guy too and there's no reason Guy has to look at Itachi's fingers or the like. Focusing on the latter's feet seems good enough in this case.



Final Jutsu said:


> Gai has strict nindo requirements for each gate.  It could be that he simply never reached those when fighting against Kakashi.



Very good point! I still remember Guy ''disciplining'' Lee for just using the first gate against Sasuke in Part I lol, and Lee apologizing to Guy mentally for doing so in the Forest of Death. A sparring match doesn't seem like the place or time to use the Seventh Gate.

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## Draco Bolton (Jun 11, 2020)

Matto said:


> Fanfiction. If the Gates were able to counter Genjutsu, Gai would not have needed to develop an entire fighting style around looking at the opponent's feats to counter Kakashi's Sharingan.


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## t0xeus (Jun 11, 2020)

Gai outlasts Susanoo and then kills Itachi with Gated onslaught.


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## Lyren (Jun 11, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Gai outlasts Susanoo and then kills Itachi with Gated onslaught.


Gates probably drain Gai as much as Susano drains Shitachi nuh? He isnt outlasting it in base


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## jesusus (Jun 11, 2020)

The Sannin University Board of Directors has spoken . If it is not written in the old testament Sannin it is fanfiction and heresy. We will be sentenced to 10 more years of Sanninism community service in spreading the word of Base Jiraiya


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Gates probably drain Gai as much as Susano drains Shitachi nuh? He isnt outlasting it in base


Gai can simply use Gates in bursts like he did during the WA, instead of staying in it the whole entire time. 
All he'd be doing is dodging Amaterasu or Susanoo attacks, as those are the only threats. And Amaterasu is extremely taxing for Itachi to use, especially alongside Susanoo.
Meanwhile Itachi has to stay in V4 the entire time or Hirudora fucks him up.

So Gai can just dodge around and wait for V4 to pop. Then it's GG.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Gai can simply use Gates in bursts like he did during the WA, instead of staying in it the whole entire time.
> All he'd be doing is dodging Amaterasu or Susanoo attacks, as those are the only threats. And Amaterasu is extremely taxing for Itachi to use, especially alongside Susanoo.
> Meanwhile Itachi has to stay in V4 the entire time or Hirudora fucks him up.
> 
> So Gai can just dodge around and wait for V4 to pop. Then it's GG.


It is not like Itachi will be camping in Susano either. He can clone feint Gai to create an amaterasu or genjutsu oppening. There is no basis for Gai using Hirudora right of the batt and he is helpless against finger genjutsu or crow genjutsu even if he avoids eye contact


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> It is not like Itachi will be camping in Susano either.


He needs to stay in Susanoo or he dies to Hirudora.



> He can clone feint Gai to create an amaterasu or genjutsu oppening.


Gai is faster and will be the one putting pressure on Itachi here. No clone feints are happening against a speedster who is forcing CQC. That makes no sense whatsoever. Itachi will have his hands full dodging and blocking hits.



> There is no basis for Gai using Hirudora right of the batt and he is helpless against finger genjutsu or crow genjutsu even if he avoids eye contact


I never said he uses Hirudora right off the bat.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He needs to stay in Susanoo or he dies to Hirudora.
> 
> 
> Gai is faster and will be the one putting pressure on Itachi here. No clone feints are happening against a speedster who is forcing CQC. That makes no sense whatsoever. Itachi will have his hands full dodging and blocking hits.
> ...


Itachi wont get pressured to the point he cant make a clone, thats a bit of stretch. The man have also very good speed feats and could clone feint almost any one he was up to. Again crow genjutsu and finger genjutsu are always an option. Tskuyomi is overkill if Itachi forces eye contact


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Itachi wont get pressured to the point he cant make a clone, thats a bit of stretch. The man have also very good speed feats and could clone feint almost any one he was up to. Again crow genjutsu and finger genjutsu are always an option. Tskuyomi is overkill if Itachi forces eye contact


So basically your whole strategy relies on Gai engaging Itachi in CQC while in Base, and not using his Gated attacks long enough so Itachi can set-up a clonefeint.

It's highly unlikely to actually go down like this.

What's more probable is that Gai goes into CQC with Itachi, and when he sees that his base-self is not enough, he enters Gates&uses Hirudora.

And Hirudora has huge AOE, even if he hits a clone, the original will get hit by the AOE.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> So basically your whole strategy relies on Gai engaging Itachi in CQC while in Base, and not using his Gated attacks long enough so Itachi can set-up a clonefeint.
> 
> It's highly unlikely to actually go down like this.
> 
> ...


Why long enough ? I can see Itachi immediately going for clone feint and finger/crow genjutsu in the first CQC exchange. He labelled Gai as dangerous in P1 and is aware of his looking at the feet technique


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Why long enough ? I can see Itachi immediately going for clone feint and finger/crow genjutsu in the first CQC exchange. He labelled Gai as dangerous in P1 and is aware of his looking at the feet technique


Why wouldn't entering Gates immediately disperse Genjutsu when it does both immense pain and also releases chakra flow at the same time?


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## Jad (Jun 12, 2020)

Gai has fought almost 4 diferent Sharingan users, none on panel have put him in a Genjutsu nor successfully feinted him. Not saying it's impossible, I'm just suggesting the idea it will work is very unlikely based on what's in the manga.


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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Genjutsu is negged by Gai's foot method, 7th gate is too fast for Amaterasu, and a stronger Susanoo was already destroyed by Hirudora. Why is Itachi winning here general consensus again?
> 
> vs
> 
> ...


Is this a joke?

Gai destroys him.

Next, is the 8th gate enough for Itachi? @ShinAkuma


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Why wouldn't entering Gates immediately disperse Genjutsu when it does both immense pain and also releases chakra flow at the same time?


We are talking about the first CQC exchange where Gai is in BASE. If Itachi catches him in genjutsu it is game over as he will immediately opt for the kill. But regarding Tsukyomi even gates wont help him since it requires another Sharingan to release yourself from it. 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Unless u are tsunade ans can negg it all day with basic shosen


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> We are talking about the first CQC exchange where Gai is in BASE. If Itachi catches him in genjutsu it is game over as he will immediately opt for the kill.


How?

Entering Gates is faster than Itachi landing a finishing blow.

Gai entered Gates and used Hirudora faster than Madara's Susanoo could finish his swing on BM Naruto.





> But regarding Tsukyomi even gates wont help him since it requires another Sharingan to release yourself from it.


Tsukuyomi needs eye contact, which Gai knows he needs to avoid, so that's not landing.



> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Unless u are tsunade ans can negg it all day with basic shosen


Facts

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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Tsukuyomi needs eye contact, which Gai knows he needs to avoid, so that's not landing.


Bingo ...


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> How?
> 
> Entering Gates is faster than Itachi landing a finishing blow.
> 
> ...



I mean how can he even enter the gates once he is prey to a paralysis genjutsu for example ? And Itachi can even make it that Gai doesnt even notice he is put under one to kill him while the latter doesnt even get to see what happened

As for Tsukyomi he can force eye contact using finger or crow genjutsu then consecutively Tsukyomi afterwards


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> I mean how can he even enter the gates once he is prey to a paralysis genjutsu for example ?


He doesn't need to move his body to enter Gates. He entered Gates while being completely movement-restricted by Madara's Mokuton.

So nah, as soon as Gai is in Genjutsu, he uses Hirudora and kills Itachi who is trying to finish Gai off.



Miel said:


> And Itachi can even make it that Gai doesnt even notice he is put under one to kill him while the latter doesnt even get to see what happened


Every single time Itachi used Genjutsu, he never used it subtly and instead did shit like crows turning into Shuriken, enemy's body starting to burn etc.

So there's no reason to believe that this time he will make it subtle unless you're biased.



Miel said:


> As for Tsukyomi he can force eye contact using finger or crow genjutsu then consecutively Tsukyomi afterwards


So Itachi can use Finger/Crow genjutsu, Shunshin in front of Gai, force eye contact, use Tsukuyomi, all before Gai can enter Gates? 

Seems far-fetched.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He doesn't need to move his body to enter Gates. He entered Gates while being completely movement-restricted by Madara's Mokuton.
> 
> So nah, as soon as Gai is in Genjutsu, he uses Hirudora and kills Itachi who is trying to finish Gai off.


Ok fair


t0xeus said:


> Every single time Itachi used Genjutsu, he never used it subtly and instead did shit like crows turning into Shuriken, enemy's body starting to burn etc.
> 
> So there's no reason to believe that this time he will make it subtle


Didnt he make it subtle all the time against Sasuke ? Their whole fight at he beggining was simply shitachi genjutsu no lol?


t0xeus said:


> So Itachi can use Finger/Crow genjutsu, Shunshin in front of Gai, force eye contact, use Tsukuyomi, all before Gai can enter Gates?
> 
> Seems far-fetched.


If he uses a subtle illusion Gai doesnt immediately notice ? Yeah
If not, no


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Didnt he make it subtle all the time against Sasuke ? Their whole fight at he beggining was simply shitachi genjutsu no lol?


That was with 3T though, not Finger/Crow. Every time he used Crow/Finger genjutsu it was some fantasmagoria shit.



Miel said:


> If he uses a subtle illusion Gai doesnt immediately notice ? Yeah
> If not, no


Thing is Gai starts in 7G here ITT, so Itachi being pushed into Susanoo right off the bat is what's happening here.


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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He doesn't need to move his body to enter Gates. He entered Gates while being completely movement-restricted by Madara's Mokuton.
> 
> So nah, as soon as Gai is in Genjutsu, he uses Hirudora and kills Itachi who is trying to finish Gai off.
> 
> ...


Gai has never got caught in genjustus.

But Itachi can do it and guy faced a lot of Sharinaga users including Madara and Itachi.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> That was with 3T though, not Finger/Crow. Every time he used Crow/Finger genjutsu it was some fantasmagoria shit.
> 
> 
> Thing is Gai starts in 7G here ITT, so Itachi being pushed into Susanoo right off the bat is what's happening here.


There is no proof he cant do the same shit as 3T with his crow/finger, especially basic illusions
Yeah but you claimed Gai will dispel his 7g to not get outlasted


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> There is no proof he cant do the same shit as 3T with his crow/finger, especially basic illusions


No proof Gai cannot use Sekizo and Night Gai in base, so he can use it I guess? 



Miel said:


> Yeah but you claimed Gai will dispel his 7g to not get outlasted


Yeah but if Itachi dispels Susanoo and goes into CQC, then Gai re-enters Gates and pastes Itachi.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> No proof Gai cannot use Sekizo and Night Gai in base,
> 
> Yeah but if Itachi dispels Susanoo and goes into CQC, then Gai re-enters Gates and pastes Itachi.


1 - lol this is not the same thing at all. Itachi illusions have all the same mechanism, just like he can make it subtle with his 3T he also can using his finger or crow as these two have shown the ability to create illusions, changing those illusions isnt out of the realm of possibility at all

2 - when Gai reenters the gate Shitachi reactivates susano and the circle continues


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> 1 - lol this is not the same thing at all. Itachi illusions have all the same mechanism, just like he can make it subtle with his 3T he also can using his finger or crow as these two have shown the ability to create illusions, changing those illusions isnt out of the realm of possibility at all


You said he can use Genjutsu of his 3T through his finger just because "lol they're both genjutsu".

So why can't Gai use Taijutsu of his 8G through his Base? It's just taijutsu. 



Miel said:


> 2 - when Gai reenters the gate Shitachi reactivates susano and the circle continues


If Itachi deactivates Susanoo, 7G Gai can pretty much just close-in on him like he did here and use Hirudora:


Using V4 takes some time, he has to manifest Ribcage->V1->V2->V3 and only then he can enter V4.

So Hirudora kills Itachi if Gai uses it on him after V4 is deactivated.

Plus this is also giving Itachi the benefit of doubt that he will know he needs to use V4 here. It's likely he will try to tank Hirudora with a lesser stage of Susanoo and fail.


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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> 2 - when Gai reenters the gate Shitachi reactivates susano and the circle continues


When did Itachi have the option to spamm MS?

Also, he is blind or almost blind.

When did he even show movement to those of Edo alive?


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> You said he can use Genjutsu of his 3T through his finger just because "lol they're both genjutsu".
> 
> So why can't Gai use Taijutsu of his 8G through his Base? It's just taijutsu.


No i said that he makes a subtle illusion using only his crow. And my argument isnt "theyre both genjutsu" but both illusions share the same mechanism as well, Itachi only has to change the illusion here 
Lol because Gai uses a suicide move to get access to this "taijutsu" so he obviously cant use it in base  I dont see Itachi going blind when using 3T genjutu and pushed beyond his limit 


t0xeus said:


> Itachi deactivates Susanoo, 7G Gai can pretty much just close-in on him like he did here and use Hiru


Nop, he will activate it at the same time Gai activates 7th gate and we saw it taking some time in his fight with Kisame


t0xeus said:


> Plus this is also giving Itachi the benefit of doubt that he will know he needs to use V4 here. It's likely he will try to tank Hirudora with a lesser stage of Susanoo and fai


Since the fight starts with Gai already in 7th gate, Itachi will know that his blows are deadly and that he should use his strongest defense to block them


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> When did Itachi have the option to spamm MS?
> 
> Also, he is blind or almost blind.
> 
> When did he even show movement to those of Edo alive?


Op didnt say wether Itachi is sick or not here, im assuming he is healthy


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> No i said that he makes a subtle illusion using only his crow. And my argument isnt "theyre both genjutsu" but both illusions share the same mechanism as well, Itachi only has to change the illusion here


But he never showed that he has influence over subtleness of his Finger Genjutsu.

You can't use 3T Genjutsu feats and say that he can use that through his Finger without any proof.



Miel said:


> Lol because Gai uses a suicide move to get access to this "taijutsu" so he obviously cant use it in base  I dont see Itachi going blind when using 3T genjutu and pushed beyond his limit


It's just a kick. Same mechanism and all that. 



Miel said:


> Nop, he will activate it at the same time Gai activates 7th gate and we saw it taking some time in his fight with Kisame


This is WA Gai, not Island Turtle Gai. 

WA Gai uses 7G&Hirudora faster than Madara can swing his Susanoo sword.



Miel said:


> Since the fight starts with Gai already in 7th gate, Itachi will know that his blows are deadly and that he should use his strongest defense to block them


This makes no sense. 

So since he will see Gai is in 7 Gated mode, he will know that he needs to use V4, because.. why? 

He has no knowledge on Gated abilities, or Gai's Hirudora etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Op didnt say wether Itachi is sick or not here, im assuming he is healthy


Well, that Itachi does not exist.

So where exactly are you taking his feats from?

Itachi died because of that and over usage of chakra.

7th gate forces him to use Susanoo so he either dies or Gai kills him.

If he does not use it Gai kills him.

And not you can't use the feats from Edo Itachi that is like EMS Itachi without PS, there is no stamina there and he had help from KCM Naruto Bee and then EMS Sasuke.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> But he never showed that he has influence over subtleness over his Finger Genjutsu.
> 
> You can't use 3T Genjutsu feats and say that he can use that through his Finger without any proof.


Maybe not his finger but Itachi crow have 3T Sharingan 


t0xeus said:


> It's just a kick. Same mechanism and all that.


The man uses a suicidal move to benefit from those power ups but nice logic there


t0xeus said:


> This is WA Gai, not Island Turtle Gai.
> 
> WA Gai uses 7G&Hirudora faster than Madara can swing his Susanoo sword.


How do you know ? I dont remember this fight but was Gai shown in base at the same time of Madara ssinging his susano sword ? I'm talking about the speed of gates activation here


t0xeus said:


> This makes no sense.
> 
> So since he will see Gai is in 7 Gated mode, he will know that he needs to use V4, because.. why?
> 
> He has no knowledge on Gated abilities, or Gai's Hirudora etc.


You're telling me he will tank him using Taijutsu lol ?


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Well, that Itachi does not exist.
> 
> So where exactly are you taking his feats from?


Not according to Zetsu. Itachi in his fight with Sasuke was indeed at the verge of death


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## Ren. (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Not according to Zetsu. Itachi in his fight with Sasuke was indeed at the verge of death


I don't use statements to debate.

We use what was shown on panel.

A Healthy Itachi is well not in the manga.


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Maybe not his finger but Itachi crow have 3T Sharingan


As if Gai is going to stand still and watch the crows flock around him. 

Man who has fought in CQC against Rinne Obito is getting blitzed by a crow and forced to look into its eyes. 



Miel said:


> The man uses a suicidal move to benefit from those power ups but nice logic there


And Itachi's subtle Genjutsu benefits from being casted by his 3T Sharingan, yet he can use the same Genjutsu even just through his finger according to you. 



Miel said:


> How do you know ? I dont remember this fight but was Gai shown in base at the same time of Madara ssinging his susano sword ? I'm talking about the speed of gates activation here


Yeah I posted the scans here.


t0xeus said:


> How?
> 
> Entering Gates is faster than Itachi landing a finishing blow.
> 
> ...






Miel said:


> You're telling me he will tank him using Taijutsu lol ?


Ribcage Susanoo is enough. 

Gated Gai's regular punches are not busting anything above V1.

Only Hirudora will, which Itachi has no knowledge on.


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> As if Gai is going to stand still and watch the crows flock around him.
> 
> Man who has fought in CQC against Rinne Obito is getting blitzed by a crow and f


Why not ? Its not like he expects the crow to be casting genjutsu on him.


t0xeus said:


> And Itachi's subtle Genjutsu benefits from being casted by his 3T Sharingan, yet he can use the same Genjutsu even just through his finger according to you.


I conceded the finger part
2 - While it is a good feat why is this supposed to be faster than Susano mental activation which matched the raikage speed ?


t0xeus said:


> Ribcage Susanoo is enough.
> 
> Gated Gai's regular punches are not busting anything above V1.
> 
> Only Hirudora will, which Itachi has no knowledge on.


Once Gai uses a named attack, Itachi will level up his susano. And i dont buy the Hirudora off panel feat against Madara. He could have just desactived susano afterwards


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Why not ? Its not like he expects the crow to be casting genjutsu on him.


He can just jump at Itachi instead of watching the crows.



Miel said:


> 2 - While it is a good feat why is this supposed to be faster than Susano mental activation which matched the raikage speed ?


What are you talking about? 

We're talking about Itachi going from 0 to V4. Not just activating Ribcage.



Miel said:


> Once Gai uses a named attack, Itachi will level up his susano.


Because?
Why didn't he activate V4 against Kirin?



> And i dont buy the Hirudora off panel feat against Madara. He could have just desactived susano afterwards


There's more evidence for Susanoo being busted (Mokuton grip loosening, Madara not appearing anywhere, Madara saying he was stopped from catching Gyuki because his enemies are too strong) than it tanking Hirudora (because it was off-panel).


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> He can just jump at Itachi instead of watching the crows.


Also the crows can force eye contact with him and since he doesnt expect them to cast genjutsu, he wont bother avoiding eye contact with them


t0xeus said:


> We're talking about Itachi going from 0 to V4. Not just activating Ribcage


Does it really take that much time ?


t0xeus said:


> Because?
> Why didn't he activate V4 against Kirin


He was going easy on his beloved bro and intended to die in that fight... On a serious note, Sasuke hasnt shown any attack capable of busting susano beforehands so he may not have expected it. But he seems familiar with Gai gates potential


t0xeus said:


> There's more evidence for Susanoo being busted (Mokuton grip loosening, Madara not appearing anywhere, Madara saying he was stopped from catching Gyuki because his enemies are too strong) than it tanking Hirudora (because it was off-panel).


There is still no proof to it and since it is off topic just agree to disagree


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Nop, he will activate it at the same time Gai activates 7th gate and we saw it taking some time in his fight with Kisame


Bruh... Stop cherry picking instances. 
Gai later entered gate 7 and fired of hirudora before madara could do a swing. 
And this Gai was tired from using gates and being sapped by the wood dragon. 
Going by the same style of taking inferior feats   itachi needed to rest after just using 1 shot of Tsukuyomi and amaterasu in P1. Let's use that as preef here eventhough it was retceonned later.


Miel said:


> Since the fight starts with Gai already in 7th gate, Itachi will know that his blows are deadly and that he should use his strongest defense to block them


Gai is still way quicker than Itachi on the draw. His hirudora will hit before itachi can even completely manifest his Susanoo. That's the speed difference here of the 2 techniques.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tri (Jun 12, 2020)

Gai gets overwhelmed once Itachi makes use of his MS.


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## t0xeus (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Also the crows can force eye contact with him and since he doesnt expect them to cast genjutsu, he wont bother avoiding eye contact with them
> 
> Does it really take that much time ?
> 
> ...


Well we can agree to disagree on this all, I am getting a bit bored now with this and need to go study 

You do agree that Hirudora fucks Itachi up and your only counter is that Itachi can enter V4 instantly, which we know he can't, so we don't disagree much on anything when you put biases aside


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## Lyren (Jun 12, 2020)

t0xeus said:


> Well we can agree to disagree on this all, I am getting a bit bored now with this and need to go study
> 
> You do agree that Hirudora fucks Itachi up and your only counter is that Itachi can enter V4 instantly, which we know he can't, so we don't disagree much on anything when you put biases aside


Im not biased, especially when favoring someone like Shitachi Maru  
Guy is just overrated


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## Windmaster Sam (Jun 12, 2020)

Miel said:


> Im not biased, especially when favoring someone like Shitachi Maru
> *Guy is just overrated*



Is that why people go out of their way to downplay his feats and performance even now? 

He is one of the most underrated characters, outside the Red Gate that is.


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## Kras Lee (Jun 16, 2020)

might guy wins this i dont even think he will need the 7th gate maybe only the 6th will do the work with the 7th gate he fought 10 tails rinnegan madara and was able to push him yes that wasnt much but madara in base with 1 rinnegan took out all the bijuus + naruto + gaara + tobirama + sasuke and all that i repeat in base with 1 rinnegan not being the ten tails jinchuricki xD what chance does itachi have vs that shit ? itachi was afraid of guy. also i see people saying 7th gate is equal to kakashi if thats true then why kakashi didnt rush to fight 10th tails madara hand to hand combat ? stop talking bullshit they are equals but it was never stated that gated guy is equal to kakashi.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 16, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> As long as there is smoke blocking what you want to see.... It does not matter where Nagato is standing... The smoke is still blocking his Los.



You're missing the point. The smokescreen is blocking his LOS ONLY up to the point where the blade emerges. Read the entirety of my previous post if you are interested in replying again. 

If you take away the smokescreen, then yeah, he sees it coming from further away. But the question is, how much the smokescreen matter.  Even  with the smokescreen, he still had AT LEAST TEN METERS to react to the speed. That's standard combat distance. 

The argument he couldn't see the blade coming after the blade emerged is null, because he has reacted to several attacks coming out of smokescreens and Edo Tensei brings back people with all their memories, and the automatic (unconscious reflex feature)  works regardless of the level of conscious control Kabuto applies. His reflex to attacks is Shinra Tensei or Preta Path, shown multiple times. Neither jutsu was activated when the blade pierced his chest.




t0xeus said:


> Why wouldn't entering Gates immediately disperse Genjutsu when it does both immense pain and also releases chakra flow at the same time?



First you have to prove that all genjutsu can be broken by pain. We saw how in the Chunin Exams forest Kabuto wasn't broken out of genjutsu cast by fodders despite being cut by a kunai.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> You're missing the point. The smokescreen is blocking his LOS ONLY up to the point where the blade emerges. Read the entirety of my previous post if you are interested in replying again.
> 
> If you take away the smokescreen, then yeah, he sees it coming from further away. But the question is, how much the smokescreen matter. Even with the smokescreen, he still had AT LEAST TEN METERS to react to the speed. That's standard combat distance.
> 
> The argument he couldn't see the blade coming after the blade emerged is null, because he has reacted to several attacks coming out of smokescreens and Edo Tensei brings back people with all their memories, and the automatic (unconscious reflex feature) works regardless of the level of conscious control Kabuto applies. His reflex to attacks is Shinra Tensei or Preta Path, shown multiple times. Neither jutsu was activated when the blade pierced his chest.


Yeah.. I get what you are saying... It makes sense if Nagato was himself and not being manually controlled by kabuto.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> The argument he couldn't see the blade coming after the blade emerged is null, because he has reacted to several attacks coming out of smokescreens and Edo Tensei brings back people with all their memories, and the automatic (unconscious reflex feature)  works regardless of the level of conscious control Kabuto applies. His reflex to attacks is Shinra Tensei or Preta Path, shown multiple times. Neither jutsu was activated when the blade pierced his chest.



Not really. It's always harder to react to an attack that you didn't even see or sense coming than to one you _*did*_. 

Kabuto was also controlling Nagato personally - Nagato wasn't moving automatically or on auto-pilot.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 17, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> ot really. It's always harder to react to an attack that you didn't even see or sense coming than to one you _*did*_.
> 
> Kabuto was also controlling Nagato personally - Nagato wasn't moving automatically or on auto-pilot.



This was already addressed. Nagato *certainly saw that attack coming*. Like I said, take away the smokescreen, and he sees it coming FROM A LONGER DISTANCE. You can't tell me he didn't see that attack coming when they're are VISIBLE TREES IN BETWEEN HIM AND THE SMOKE. If the READER can see the space in between Nagato and that smoke, then a person with the rinnegan certainly can, since he was looking in the direction of the attack and the exact spot where it came from.

 He has a higher chance of reacting, but that does not invalidate Itachi's feat. There was still over ten meters of distance between Nagato and that smoke. Saying he can't see that attack isn't accurate, he reacted to attacks coming out of smokescreens in the past WITH AND WITHOUT SHARED VISION, and the normal Pain  bodies also don't have chakra sensing  (as they were blindsided by Naruto multiple times) unless Pain is using that rain jutsu. So the variables are exactly the same . @Rock Lee like a Hurricane simply ignored the scans in my post, I'm assuming you didn't see it, so I'm posting them here again.


Edo Tensei IS EXPLICITLY STATED TO BE AUTOMATIC IN TERMS OF RESPONDING INTO ENEMY ATTACKS. Muu and Gengetsu stated this. And Kankuro and Kabuto says EVEN IF THE *CASTER DIES*, the EDO TENSEI KEEP REACTING TO ATTACKS.  It doesn't matter what Kabuto's conscious control is. Even after he dies (zero consciousness by definition), the Edo Tensei still continue to react to attacks. Even while he was busy fighting Itachi, Muu was still under *direct control  ((he  lacked control of his consciousness) and was still *fighting the alliance until the moment the jutsu was released. 


Muu was switched to mindless when Madara first started fighting the 5 Kage and went off to fight Dodai and the others. We clearly see from this that he was still fighting in MINDLESS MODE even while Kabuto obviously wasn't controlling him (again busy with Sasuke and Itachi...).

You're confusing reflex responses (which happen unconsciously and automatically without conscious awareness) with conscious control. Kabuto was in conscious control of Nagato's mind, yes, but the CONTROL TAG operates at the unconscious level. Unconscious brain >>>> conscious brain in stimulus processing speed, instinct acts before reason- this just how neurobiology works. If this isn't how it worked, then The Edo Tensei couldn't possibly continuing fight even after the caster's death. This is the whole point of why Itachi couldn't kill Kabuto.

Kabuto wasn't attacking with Nagato yes, he made the conscious decision to await the enemy attack, but THE REACTION/REFLEX is AUTOMATIC. Even if someone put a bullet in Kabuto's head with a sniper rifle while he was controlling Nagato, Nagato still would have continued to RESPOND TO ATTACKS. 
.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 17, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Yeah.. I get what you are saying... It makes sense if Nagato was himself and not being manually controlled by kabuto.



the unconscious brain can pull memories from experiences. Doesn't matter if he lacked his CONSCIOUS MIND. they control tag still possess all their memories, unconscious or conscious.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 17, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> *He has a higher chance of reacting*, but that does not invalidate Itachi's feat.



Basically my point. 

Also, the rest of what you're saying is an assumption. We have never seen Edo Tensei in action after their summoner was neutralized - Edo Tensei _that were directly under the summoner's control, anyway_ - *so we have no idea what their capabilities would be like in such a scenario*. Kabuto had no knowledge of Nagato's lack of mobility (he himself states this the very next chapter) and no knowledge of Nagato's sensory capabilities (as Itachi points out during his fight with Kabuto).


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## Leaf Hurricane (Jun 17, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> the unconscious brain can pull memories from experiences. Doesn't matter if he lacked his CONSCIOUS MIND. they control tag still possess all their memories, unconscious or conscious.


Still doesn't let Nagato fight like nagato because kabuto is the one piloting him. Even if his unconscious mind wanted to do something based on your logic, kabuto is still controlling him physically. So even if He thinks to dodge, he can't.


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## LightningForce (Jun 18, 2020)

Guys. It’s time to accept that Nagato is but a slave & retainer to those with blessed eyes.

Let us accept that the holy black flames, guardian angel chop, & Totsuka blitz hath given Nagato 3 chances to see the light, & in all of those instances he go blitzed like the poor lost boy Jiraiya once found him as.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 19, 2020)

Rock Lee like a Hurricane said:


> Still doesn't let Nagato fight like nagato because kabuto is the one piloting him. Even if his unconscious mind wanted to do something based on your logic, kabuto is still controlling him physically. So even if He thinks to dodge, he can't.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> lso, the rest of what you're saying is an assumption. We have never seen Edo Tensei in action after their summoner was neutralized - Edo Tensei _that were directly under the summoner's control, anyway_ - *so we have no idea what their capabilities would be like in such a scenario*. Kabuto had no knowledge of Nagato's lack of mobility (he himself states this the very next chapter) and no knowledge of Nagato's sensory capabilities (as Itachi points out during his fight with Kabuto).



First of all, Nagato's reflex has never been to dodge:
He blocked Bee's sword for Itachi automatically using ST
Blocked Rasengan automatically using Preta
Blocked Lariat using Preta.
At no point was dodging his reflex response. This proves they control tag does in fact have his unconscious memories, because he wasn't making any of those decisions consciously, it wasn't his desire to fight Naruto or the others, the body is moving on its own and reacting to attacks as he would were he alive.


You're also not understanding something. I preemptively posted those links about the conscious brain vs unconscious brain hoping you would at least read or do your own research, because your reply tells me you still don't understand the difference.



Kabuto is controlling his CONSCIOUS or RATIONAL decisions- i.e the tactical decisions- where he is using risk assessment and thinking aloud in his head as he logically and tactically justifies each of his decisions- the decision to hide their souls in Naraka, the offensive jutsu Nagato uses like when he used CBT, etc. That has nothing to do with *reacting* to attacks, which is not offensive, but automatic, unconscious, reactionary and defensive. That's the point you're not getting. Edo Tensei is set to automatically defend against enemy attacks. I never said Kabuto can use make the same quality of* conscious *or deliberative decisions as Nagato- he obviously lacked full knowledge of the Rinnegan or his sensory abilities. Which proves even further that the control tag is automatic. When Nagato was in control of his body, he could still make his own conscious decisions, like to turn on chakra sensing (which isn't automatically turned on, btw) -

*Spoiler*: _Chakra sensory mode_ 












-(which helped him sense Amaterasu) as long as it didn't directly disobey The control tag's orders. If it was Kabuto doing that, then he obviously would have known about the chakra sensing. Hell, he would even have realized that it was Nagato who tracked his location. But Nagato's reflexes aren't controllable, the control tag dictates them. Those are always on even if the caster dies, so its absolutely independent of whether the Edo Tensei is in mindless mode or not.

Why? Because then by your logic, Kabuto forfeits any Edo Tensei he has in mindless mode if he is killed, which makes no sense. He showed that he can keep all 7 Mist Swordsmen under mindless mode, and planned to keep the majority of his Edo Tensei in that way, save for few exceptions- the majority of the Edo Tensei didn't want to fight the alliance- but there were still some that would be stronger if he left their personality on even if he risked them leaking intel about how to stop them to the alliance. 

By your logic, if he Dies, all these Edo Tensei would turn into sitting ducks waiting to be sealed, which flat out isn't true:
As I said, Muu was in mindless mode when Dodai and the others chased him down.
he was shown to be still in mindless mode the whole time , as he only gained his personality back moments before he was sent back to the afterlife.

And Kabuto certainly wasn't controlling him, he was busy fighting two MS users, and was also trapped in genjutsu:

So what is the more logical conclusion? That Dodai and the others are morons for standing around and not sealing an Edo Tensei who was a sitting duck by your logic? Or do we default to what was established since P1?




At the beginning of the manga, we are told by the Professor, who can explain the mechanics of all jutsu in Konoha, that the MINDLESSLY CONTROLED 1st AND SECOND Hokages could not be undone by simply killing Orochimaru. By your logic The professor of Konoha is an idiot and opted against simply killing Orochimaru, which would then leave Tobirama and Hashirama as sitting ducks, but instead decided to prepare to triple down for the RDS which results in his death.
 How are sitting ducks a threat to anyone? Right, they aren't, because even if he killed Oro Hashirama and Tobirama would still go about reacting to his attacks.


Or how about how Itachi, genius of Uchiha, is opting to not kill Kabuto, when according to your logic,  when it would turn Kabuto's entire Edo tensei army into sitting ducks:


Or how about the testimony of A3, Gengetsu, and Kankuro:







Aegon Targaryen said:


> Basically my point.


But we need to be clear though. My point is that Nagato lacked chakra sensing, but had he been in control of his senses he would have had chakra sensing turned on (because he is consciously aware of this ability, unlike Kabuto, and it has to be manually turned on:

*Spoiler*: _Chakra sensory mode_ 











which should help him detect the motion of chakra much better. It means he would have had more time to react to the Totsuka thrust. In other words, without chakra sensing, he could only see the Totsuka blade once it emerged from the smoke, and then would have watched it move for about ten meters before it pierced him.  With chakra sensing, he would effectively been aware of the blade's motion from a much longer distance. So that means, if we take away the smokescreen, and measure the true distance between Itachi and Nagato (which is >> ten meters), we don't know precisely if Nagato could have reacted or not from that distance (but I'd say its unlikely even from there given that again the blade seems to be faster than even his perception speed, let alone reflexes, as he only reacted once it pierced his chest).  But  that ALSO means if we take away the smokescreen, and Totsuka is thrusted from ten meters away from a character with Nagato level reactions or less, they get blitzed. 

Conclusion?
 Based on what happened with Muu, and the testimony of several intelligent and knowledgeable characters who obviously know how Edo Tensei work, Nagato could react just fine to Totsuka regardless of Kabuto's level of control. No one is saying though that mindless Edo Nagato fights with the same proficiency as living Nagato, that's the whole point. None of the Edo Tensei are fighting at their peak because they are being forced to make decisions by the control tag, and obviously if their personality is turned off, they can't strategize effectively since they don't have their conscious reasoning faculties, they can only fight instinctually. But in Tobirama's time, that was more than good enough because back then they presumably didn't have sealing tags when he first started using it, so if you didn't have another sealing jutsu Edo Tensei would just outlast your army. But I digress.  Unfortunately instinct is all that is needed to react to a single attack, which is why Itachi's feat still counts. Edo Tensei in Kabuto's hands are brought back at at least 90 percent of their original power, so Edo Nagato's  instinct/ reflex speed still scales to Living Nagato, and its not like Itachi wasn't also an Edo Tensei, he was also nerfed, so it evens out.

That means Living Itachi's Totsuka Thrust is fast enough to blitz a Living Nagato from a ten meter distance faster than his eye can perceive ( as he couldn't muster a mere , automatic, mental reaction to use ST or Preta  to attempt to deflect the attack).


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 19, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> First of all, Nagato's reflex has never been to dodge:
> He blocked Bee's sword for Itachi automatically using ST
> Blocked Rasengan automatically using Preta
> Blocked Lariat using Preta.
> ...



Bro, that's way too big lol (even for me). We're gonna have to agree to disagree - the way I see it, Kabuto is to blame for Nagato's defeat. It is pointed out in the manga how Kabuto not only was surprised by Nagato's lack of mobility but also didn't even know the dude had the power to sense chakra. We even see him flub using another Edo Tensei (Ay III) against Naruto by having him use the one-finger Nukite against SM Naruto instead of using a lower level attack which could likely have been enough, which ended up being redirected into him and destroying his body. He could've even tried to wait Naruto out once he saw the latter's Sage Mode eyes (which he should've seen) before capturing him. But no. He ends up losing a pawn for no good reason.

Finally, there's no proof the ''automatic'' Edo Tensei are as good as the real thing. In my view, a shinobi who cannot function according to their true skills and personality and is being used as a puppet by another will never be at the same level as if they had been acting on their own. Just look at how Sasori's Third Kazekage puppet gets destroyed by Sakura and Chiyo - I can guarantee had the Third Kazekage himself been fighting them, they'd have been killed very early and easily.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 23, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> and a stronger Susanoo was already destroyed by Hirudora.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> ro, that's way too big lol (even for me). We're gonna have to agree to disagree - the way I see it, Kabuto is to blame for Nagato's defeat. It is pointed out in the manga how Kabuto not only was surprised by Nagato's lack of mobility but also didn't even know the dude had the power to sense chakra. We even see him flub using another Edo Tensei (Ay III) against Naruto by having him use the one-finger Nukite against SM Naruto instead of using a lower level attack which could likely have been enough, which ended up being redirected into him and destroying his body. He could've even tried to wait Naruto out once he saw the latter's Sage Mode eyes (which he should've seen) before capturing him. But no. He ends up losing a pawn for no good reason.
> 
> Finally, there's no proof the ''automatic'' Edo Tensei are as good as the real thing. In my view, a shinobi who cannot function according to their true skills and personality and is being used as a puppet by another will never be at the same level as if they had been acting on their own. Just look at how Sasori's Third Kazekage puppet gets destroyed by Sakura and Chiyo - I can guarantee had the Third Kazekage himself been fighting them, they'd have been killed very early and easily.




Look man, I'm okay with you not reading my post (time and interest are key factors ) but if you aren't gonna do so, then there was no point in replying- as you replied with points that were already debunked ( and even repeated things I myself already said lol), it basically comes across as a concession. If you are actually interested in the debate, then word length shouldn't be a deterrent imho. You read through many posts a day on here I'm sure and also read a 700 chapter long manga. My first two posts should have been  more than enough evidence on its own, but it wasn't so I needed to get more scans and be even more thorough, and now look at that wasted effort lol.

But whatever, to sum up the main points here:

1)
Kabuto is to blame for Nagato's defeat overall, not for failing to react to a specific attack.  That was on Nagato's reflexes. Kabuto did have knowledge on the mobility, that's why he set up extra shared vision, he explicitly said this was to defend against blindside attacks, since he knew Nagato was a sitting duck. The issue was that- he didn't know that Shurado can spawn two extra pairs of rinnegan eyes on Nagato's face, combined with Itachi's unprecedented skill in kunai, plus Kabuto's lack of knowledge of chakra sensing. All three of those things caused Nagato to be ambushed.

2) My point is that in terms of *defense *and responding to enemy attacks , Edo Tensei is *explicitly stated to automatic and independent of the revived' person's will or personality.  *However, nowhere was it ever stated that *offense was always enacted automatically ,  or that every jutsu an Edo Tensei casts is automatically casted.* Nagato activated chakra sensing without Kabuto's knowledge in order to reverse track him, similar to what SM Naruto did in the Pain Arc to find Nagato.  We have also seen Edo Tensei strategize on their own will sufficient their personality was turned on, sometimes for Kabuto's benefit (Like Gold and Silver Brothers), or sometimes for the Alliance's benefit- like Nagato warning Naruto of Amaterasu for instance. So while their personality is turned on, they can make some conscious decisions of their own, but defense to enemy jutsu is automatic.

When Kabuto turns off an Edo Tensei's personality, the automatic defense feature of the control tag doesn't magically turn off, there is no reason for it to. Muu was still fighting Dodai and the Hokage Body guards even while Kabuto was consciously distracted fighting the Uchiha bros and being trapped in genjutsu, and the smokescreens on their battlefield are suggestive of this, and as I said before his personality was only returned the moment the jutsu was released. It's established that Edo Tensei continue fighting even after the caster dies.

So Even if Kabuto switches out an Edo Tensei's personality for his own, the control tag still does its job for defense, while Kabuto can no modulate the tactical decisions in place of the Edo Tensei- which works to his benefit in some cases since the Edo Tensei normally refuse to fight the Alliance anyway. As such, he can now make the conscious and offense decisions, while the control tag continues to make defensive decisions.


But we know the control tag can also periodically initiate attacks of its own even if the Edo Tensei themselves or Kabuto isn't behind the decision:

So that explains how Edo Tensei can continue to attack automatically (in addition to always react enemy jutsu) after the caster dies. My guess is that the control tag uses a behavioral algorithm with non-deterministic or deterministic elements and is timed sensitive. If no offensive action is taken by the Edo Tensei caster or the Edo tensei it self after a certain amount of time, or if it detects that the caster has died, it can enact attack patterns of its own by tapping into the memories of the Edo Tensei and then selecting an attack to be enacted from the Edo Tensei's procedural memory. Think of it as an artificial intelligence. That explains why many Edo Tensei perform similar to how they performed in life despite many of them being forced to attack against their will, but obviously, it isn't perfect, there are flaws which explain why many Edo Tensei were trashed in situations where their Real Living Selves wouldn't have been.

So feel free to agree to disagree, not stopping your right to do so, but you did so without reading my argument (by your own admission) lol and it shows in the content and quality of your reply.




@MaruUchiha  YM > Madara's Susano'o


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## LightningForce (Jun 24, 2020)

> 7 pages of this thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Jun 24, 2020)

Amaterasu burns him to death as he's not fast enough to dodge it.


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## Marvel (Jun 24, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> > 7 pages of this thread


All Hirodaura did was send the Susanoo flying. Nothing to suggest any damage was done to it.

Not like he'll ever get the chance to use Hirodaura tho. Amaterasu blitzes.


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## LightningForce (Jun 24, 2020)

Marvel said:


> All Hirodaura did was send the Susanoo flying. Nothing to suggest any damage was done to it.
> 
> Not like he'll ever get the chance to use Hirodaura tho. Amaterasu blitzes.



Except Mokuton constrictions weakened immediately after that. Madara was then seen without Susano’o chilling somewhere that was BFR.

If Amaterasu was stopped by V1 cloak then Guy’s 7th Gate sweat which evaporated a lake around him no diffs it. 

Nvm the fact that Amaterasu is too slow to catch Guy in the first place.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 24, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> Except Mokuton constrictions weakened immediately after that. Madara was then seen without Susano’o chilling somewhere that was BFR.
> 
> If Amaterasu was stopped by V1 cloak then Guy’s 7th Gate sweat which evaporated a lake around him no diffs it.
> 
> Nvm the fact that Amaterasu is too slow to catch Guy in the first place.


I like how we are just assuming that Madara's Susano'o is more durable than Itachi's which is empowered by a legendary spiritual item


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## Sapherosth (Jun 24, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> Except Mokuton constrictions weakened immediately after that. Madara was then seen without Susano’o chilling somewhere that was BFR.
> 
> If Amaterasu was stopped by V1 cloak then Guy’s 7th Gate sweat which evaporated a lake around him no diffs it.
> 
> Nvm the fact that Amaterasu is too slow to catch Guy in the first place.



Mokuton construction weakened because Madara was out of range. Madara sitting without Susano means he's just chilling and waiting. 


The sweat didn't evaporate the lake. It pushed the water around him away from Gai. Pretty sure Amateratsu also >> Lake and sweat.


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## Jad (Jun 24, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> Mokuton construction weakened because Madara was out of range. Madara sitting without Susano means he's just chilling and waiting.
> 
> 
> The sweat didn't evaporate the lake. It pushed the water around him away from Gai. Pretty sure Amateratsu also >> Lake and sweat.


But he said he was getting serious in capturing Naruto right before Hirudora hit him.

Then goes on to say he wanted to capture the Bijuu but the group was good.

So why would he be "chilling" if literally a little while ago he had every intention of capturing the Bijuu as he himself stated "getting serious".

You guys have Madara on a bipolar scale. One second his serious, next second his not, one second his beating up 4 Kage's, next second his taking it easy on Might Gai.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 24, 2020)

Jad said:


> But he said he was getting serious in capturing Naruto right before Hirudora hit him.
> 
> Then goes on to say he wanted to capture the Bijuu but the group was good.
> 
> ...




If you read his fight against the 5 Kage, it's actually in character for him to do opposite stuff like that. 

Just like when he used perfect Susano and gets stopped mid-way by Edo tensei release. He didn't want to continue using PS even though he was perfectly fine and just shifted to something else.


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## Jad (Jun 24, 2020)

Sapherosth said:


> If you read his fight against the 5 Kage, it's actually in character for him to do opposite stuff like that.
> 
> Just like when he used perfect Susano and gets stopped mid-way by Edo tensei release. He didn't want to continue using PS even though he was perfectly fine and just shifted to something else.


What did he use instead of PS to beat the Kage? It was all off panel. In any rate, Madara was using some serious moves, Hashirama's Dragon technique is what was used to combat Perfect Sasuno. So using that move meant he was serious.


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## Veracity (Jun 24, 2020)

Jad said:


> But he said he was getting serious in capturing Naruto right before Hirudora hit him.
> 
> Then goes on to say he wanted to capture the Bijuu but the group was good.
> 
> ...



But then again this argument can be used right back on you. If Madara truly was serious then explain why he didn’t rejoin the battle? Unless you wish to believe that Hirudora eradicated both Sussano and Madara for an entire chapter which doesn’t make a lick of sense. And even *if* you could prove this, it’s easily refuted by Madara literally sitting on his ass watching the fight go on. In no way can that be interpreted as serious.

Nobody here has intentionally put Madara on that scale, Kishi did that himself many times.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 25, 2020)

Veracity said:


> But then again this argument can be used right back on you. If Madara truly was serious then explain why he didn’t rejoin the battle? Unless you wish to believe that Hirudora eradicated both Sussano and Madara for an entire page which doesn’t make a lick of sense. And even *if* you could prove this, it’s easily refuted by Madara literally sitting on his ass watching the fight go on. In no way can that be interpreted as serious.
> 
> Nobody here has intentionally put Madara on that scale, Kishi did that himself many times.



IIRC its explicitly stated that Madara changed his mind- he wanted to test the power of the Juubi on Naruto and friends, which is why he no longer opted to fight them seriously. He really is bipolar.


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## Sapherosth (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> What did he use instead of PS to beat the Kage? It was all off panel. In any rate, Madara was using some serious moves, Hashirama's Dragon technique is what was used to combat Perfect Sasuno. So using that move meant he was serious.



Who knows what he used. Most likely Mokuton techniques. 

Wood dragon was also used for restraining. Its speciality is restraining Bijuu's which was perfect against Hachibi there. Gai was just a side project.


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## Jad (Jun 25, 2020)

Veracity said:


> But then again this argument can be used right back on you. If Madara truly was serious then explain why he didn’t rejoin the battle? Unless you wish to believe that Hirudora eradicated both Sussano and Madara for an entire chapter which doesn’t make a lick of sense. And even *if* you could prove this, it’s easily refuted by Madara literally sitting on his ass watching the fight go on. In no way can that be interpreted as serious.
> 
> Nobody here has intentionally put Madara on that scale, Kishi did that himself many times.


He couldn't rejoin the battle because by the time he got up to sit on his ass we see him viewing the revival of the Juubi. It's not that hard to understand, you're making it unbelievably complicated when it's actually simple.

1. Madara states he is getting *serious.*
2. Is on the attack from that point on, literally keeping his opponents restrained or immobile in some form. Nothing has stopped him yet after getting serious, so it seems he was on track to being successful.
3. Get's blasted by the ONLY attack to land and hit him AFTER getting serious.
4. Comes back after Juubi revival and states to Tobi : "I wanted to get them before the Juubi, but they are a *good group*"

Literally, his intention this ENTIRE time was to capture Kyuubi and Hachibi, that was his in-character state of mind (to put it in NBD terms), and stopped taking it easy on Naruto and started to get *serious*, only for one attack by Gai to stop him.

If Madara is getting serious on one task and fails at it because of someone else, that means the other person stopped him by force. If he could have captured the Kyuubi and Hachibi, and wasn't affected by Hirudora, the big man himself would have zipped right back into action as quickly as possible; which you guys are saying - that nothing happened to him that would have prevented his return.

Gai stopped a serious Madara captuing Naruto and Bee. End of story. Manga literally tells us TWICE the state of mind Madara was in; *serious* and *wanting to capture the Bijuu*.

I don't need to type all this to explain to you 2 pages of drawings, and text on those drawings. Stop trying to psychoanalyze a drawing when that character explains to us his intentions and state of mind LITERALLY.

Reactions: Like 1


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> I like how we are just assuming that Madara's Susano'o is more durable than Itachi's which is empowered by a legendary spiritual item



Madara’s Susano’o is scaled much higher than Itachi’s by virtue of his EMS & raw chakra volume. Reasonably so I’d say.

Yata Mirror does not help much in providing better resistance feats than Madara’s Susano’o alone can handle.



Sapherosth said:


> Mokuton construction weakened because Madara was out of range. Madara sitting without Susano means he's just chilling and waiting.





Sapherosth said:


> The sweat didn't evaporate the lake. It pushed the water around him away from Gai. Pretty sure Amateratsu also >> Lake and sweat.



Or it was weakened bc it busted Susano’o. Which is the far more likely explanation given Madara was seen chilling *without Susano’o* afterward.

Either way Itachi’s Susano’o also gets BFR’d.

You’re right, it was pushing it back. Which is actually even more impressive.

Pretty sure no normal kind of sweat can push back a lake. V1 basic cloak clowned Amaterasu, 7th Gate sweat which could push back a lake will wall Amaterasu the same way.

Just look at the radius of it, Guy’s body is *tiny* relative to what it can put out.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Jun 25, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> Except Mokuton constrictions weakened immediately after that. Madara was then seen without Susano’o chilling somewhere that was BFR.


That'd mean he either stopped the jutsu or was sent far enough away that the jutsu deactivated.

Him being seen w/o Susanoo dosen't mean it was destroyed. That's baseless.


LightningForce said:


> If Amaterasu was stopped by V1 cloak then Guy’s 7th Gate sweat which evaporated a lake around him no diffs it.


Gai's sweat evaporated a lake? When? 

Pushing away water =/= pushing away flying flames.



LightningForce said:


> Nvm the fact that Amaterasu is too slow to catch Guy in the first place


Based off of what? A4 barely dodges it in his V2 State. What feats does Guy have in the 7G to suggest he moves as fast as A4?


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2020)

Marvel said:


> That'd mean he either stopped the jutsu or was sent far enough away that the jutsu deactivated.
> 
> Him being seen w/o Susanoo dosen't mean it was destroyed. That's baseless.



The fact that you say is baseless is outright dishonest.

Madara with Susano’o gets blown away & there is an explosion afterwards as Hirudora does.

Madara is then seen chilling without Susano’o.

It’s simply basic logic.



> Gai's sweat evaporated a lake? When?
> 
> Pushing away water =/= pushing away flying flames.



Did you deliberately feign ignorance & miss my quote above? Already addressed my mistake.

Sweat that comes out of Guy’s body exerts a force that pushed water in contact with its body outward many times the size of its body.

V1 chakra cloak (like KN1 12-yr old Naruto basic) that comes out of Naruto’s body also exerted a force & pushed outside agents like Amaterasu out.

Same principle that Kabuto-controlled Nagato did to push Amaterasu out with Shinra Tensei.

Again basic logic. Amaterasu which can’t even burn thru Samurai clothes or Karin’s clothes fast enough to harm her is simply not worth anything except burning thru ice by the end of the manga.




> Based off of what? A4 barely dodges it in his V2 State. What feats does Guy have in the 7G to suggest he moves as fast as A4?



The fact that Juudara was pushed back by his foot speed while SM Minato got parried right in the same spot he teleported in.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 25, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> Madara’s Susano’o is scaled much higher than Itachi’s by virtue of his EMS & raw chakra volume. Reasonably so I’d say.
> 
> Yata Mirror does not help much in providing better resistance feats than Madara’s Susano’o alone can handle.



That doesn't mean that, for example,  Madara's Rib cage Susano'o would be more durable than Itachi's V4 Susano'o though. What Gai blew back wasn't a V4 Susano'o. We can assume for the same level of Susano'o that Madara's would be better, but no evidence has been provided that weaker versions of Madara's Susano'o would be as strong or stronger than Itachi's strongest variants. And that's just Susano'o.


We also don't know the origin of the Yata Mirror. Again, it was known/legendary before Itachi, otherwise Zetsu and Databook Three 's dictionary wouldn't have referred to it as something that many people had known in the past. It was named and had hype behind it that existed before Itachi used it, which is why Zetsu recognized it and could also name it.  As such, Linearly scaling Madara's V2/ V3 Susano'o as greater than Itachi's V4 + YM Susano'o seems unsubstantiated.


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## Jad (Jun 25, 2020)

Marvel said:


> That'd mean he either stopped the jutsu or was sent far enough away that the jutsu deactivated.
> 
> Him being seen w/o Susanoo dosen't mean it was destroyed. That's baseless.
> 
> ...


Has distance ever been an issue for any Ninjutsu technique? Madara summoned a meteor from the sky for crying out loud, distance didn't seem an issue then.


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> Has distance ever been an issue for any Ninjutsu technique? Madara summoned a meteor from the sky for crying out loud, distance didn't seem an issue then.




It is. Chakra is still subject to the inverse square law. This is why Nagato needed to bring Deva in very close in order to give it enough chakra to cast Chibaku Tensei.  Logically if Madara is moved too far away then the chakra signals needed to control his mokuton will suffer from the effects of the inverse square law, weakening the binding.


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2020)

itachi wins.

he is a tier above Kakashi/Gai/Kisame's tier. 

I honestly never understood why tiers Kishi set very clearly is not understood by people. 
it couldn't have been any clearer tbh. lol


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## Jad (Jun 25, 2020)

ThirdRidoku said:


> It is. Chakra is still subject to the inverse square law. This is why Nagato needed to bring Deva in very close in order to give it enough chakra to cast Chibaku Tensei.  Logically if Madara is moved too far away then the chakra signals needed to control his mokuton will suffer from the effects of the inverse square law, weakening the binding.


Any other instances?



Hussain said:


> itachi wins.
> 
> he is a tier above Kakashi/Gai/Kisame's tier.
> 
> ...



I know right? When Itachi warned Akatsuki twice about Gai and it's stated in the DB Itachi ran from Gai's combat power. Crazy why people think Gai has a chance against Itachi 

40000+ posts @Hussain and you still haven't figured out the manga doesn't revolve around your headcannon .


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> 40000+ posts @Hussain and you still haven't figured out the manga doesn't revolve around your headcannon .


it doesn't, neither does it revolve around your headcanon either. 

X being stronger than Y doesn't necessarily mean X will curbfodderstomps the living shit out of Y. 
This should be fairly obvious... 

your statement about itachi's warning is irrelevant.
It's no different than how everyone acknowledges Kakashi's power as well, but they end up kicking his ass. 

Yes, Gai is strong but he is not as strong as itachi. It's that simple. 

(unless we are talking 8th Gates Gai, obviously)


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> Any other instances?



I'll try to find you some more explicit examples. But even just going off the Pain Arc alone it gives us the impression that chakra works exactly like EM radiation does. Chakra has its own frequencies that can be changed to prevent tracebacks, which is why Ino's father couldn't sense Pain/Nagatp. And In Chapters 435-436 , it was stated that Pain needs to transmit signals from the highest and nearest point, which is all  exactly how radio antennas work IRL, to minimize signal obstruction and minimize information loss to inverse square law.


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## Veracity (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> He couldn't rejoin the battle because by the time he got up to sit on his ass we see him viewing the revival of the Juubi. It's not that hard to understand, you're making it unbelievably complicated when it's actually simple.
> 
> 1. Madara states he is getting *serious.*
> 2. Is on the attack from that point on, literally keeping his opponents restrained or immobile in some form. Nothing has stopped him yet after getting serious, so it seems he was on track to being successful.
> ...



So you are actually pushing the notion that Hirudora took Madara out for an entire battle and chapter? You’re more willing to believe that then Madara just jobbing like his character is known to do? If Madara truly was serious, he would have rushed to the battlefield the *moment* he regenerated. But he didn’t not, and the notion that he didn’t because the Juubi was revived is faulty because we know he regenerated before it came out and instead of rushing to the battlefield he decided to sit out instead

Madara stated he was getting serious against the  Gokage as well when he activated his Perfect Sussano (mind you he never even opted for this against Naruto and co) yet the very next moment we see him attacking the Kage, he’s using standard Katon instead of utilizing Perfect Sussano. He then crosses his arms and gives perhaps the best example of why so many think Madara was jobbing when he says his d. Which is literally the exact same thing that happened when Madara got serious and was pushed back by Gai. His interest waned and he went back to jobbing like he’s done on multiple ocassions.

The rest of your post falls short as Madara claims that perfect Sussano is his  yet doesn’t bring it out once against Naruto and Co, so a claim could easily be made that he wasn’t taking the battle fully seriously either.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 25, 2020)

Itachi stabs Totsuka in his a** cavity and calls it a day.


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## Lyren (Jun 25, 2020)

Madara trolls and jobs around against the Gokage but doesnt versus the d-d-ensetsenu Gai


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## ThirdRidoku (Jun 25, 2020)

Jad said:


> Any other instances?



In addition to the above

There is also RSM  Madara losing control of his truth seeker orbs after a certain amount of distance according to Minato.


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## Speedyamell (Jun 25, 2020)

Gai gets stomped. 
7G allows saves him from instant death, but it's ultimately just delaying the inevitable. Gai can do nothing to V4 susanoo not to talk of a V4 with yata mirror. After the after effect of the gates start to take effect, gai gets set ablaze and killed


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## Marvel (Jun 25, 2020)

LightningForce said:


> The fact that you say is baseless is outright dishonest.
> 
> Madara with Susano’o gets blown away & there is an explosion afterwards as Hirudora does.
> 
> ...


It's dishonesty..

There's no proof the Susanoo was destroyed. He could've deactivated it.


LightningForce said:


> Sweat that comes out of Guy’s body exerts a force that pushed water in contact with its body outward many times the size of its body.


Yes and this dosen't equate to his speed fire.


LightningForce said:


> V1 chakra cloak (like KN1 12-yr old Naruto basic) that comes out of Naruto’s body also exerted a force & pushed outside agents like Amaterasu out.


No.  V1 Blocked the fire and then was dropped off of Naruto's body.


LightningForce said:


> Same principle that Kabuto-controlled Nagato did to push Amaterasu out with Shinra Tensei.


Shira Tensei isn't comparable to evaporated sweat.
Try again.



LightningForce said:


> Again basic logic. Amaterasu which can’t even burn thru Samurai clothes or Karin’s clothes fast enough to harm her is simply not worth anything except burning thru ice by the end of the manga.


They can't get the flames off so eventually they would have died,



LightningForce said:


> The fact that Juudara was pushed back by his foot speed while SM Minato got parried right in the same spot he teleported in.


He wasn't pushed back. He moved voluntarily. By your logic,7G Gai isn't too far from 8G Gai in powe which goes against narrative and feats.


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## LightningForce (Jun 25, 2020)

Marvel said:


> It's dishonesty..
> 
> There's no proof the Susanoo was destroyed. He could've deactivated it.
> 
> ...



Or it could've gotten destroyed. Either way Itachi gets BFR'd if it connects.

Nope. Naruto makes seals for Shadow Clones.

Sasuke goes for Ama.

Naruto is taken by surprise, flames engulf his body.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Then we see he has his whole V1 cloak.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




That's how worthless Ama is. Guy's sweat which repelled an  pushes back Ama zero diff.

SM Minato blitz attempt:


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




7th Gate Guy blitz attempt:


*Spoiler*: __ 



*Link Removed*




Sorry but the difference is as clear as night & day.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Madara's Susano'o should be stronger than Itachi's, pound-for-pound - minus the spiritual items, maybe.

Ay was able to damage Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage pretty easily, which Itachi's Susano'o ribcage should be about the same strength as. Yet Ay couldn't do a thing to Madara's version of this same jutsu without being amped by Onoki.


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## MaruUchiha (Jun 25, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Madara's Susano'o should be stronger than Itachi's, pound-for-pound - minus the spiritual items, maybe.
> 
> Ay was able to damage Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage pretty easily, which Itachi's Susano'o ribcage should be about the same strength as. Yet Ay couldn't do a thing to Madara's version of this same jutsu without being amped by Onoki.


I think this proves that EMS improves MS abilities. Not just removes blinding


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Hussain said:


> itachi wins.
> 
> *he is a tier above Kakashi/Gai/Kisame's tier*.
> 
> ...



That's your opinion. In mine, Kakashi and Guy are on Itachi's tier.


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> That's your opinion. In mine, Kakashi and Guy are on Itachi's tier.


it's not an opinion, it's a fact... 

Naruto surpassed Kakashi & Gai when he learned FRS.

and then it was the Sannin & itachi's turn with SM.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Hussain said:


> it's not an opinion, it's a fact...
> 
> *Naruto surpassed Kakashi & Gai when he learned FRS*.
> 
> and then it was the Sannin & itachi's turn with SM.



Too bad Kakashi and Guy kept growing stronger, unlike the Sannin and Itachi.


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## Trojan (Jun 25, 2020)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Too bad Kakashi and Guy kept growing stronger, unlike the Sannin and Itachi.


yeah, that what their fanboys were saying.

Kakashi kept struggling with Zabuza in the war arc. His enemy from the first arc of the manga. 
So much for growing stronger. lol


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jun 25, 2020)

Hussain said:


> yeah, that what their fanboys were saying.
> 
> *Kakashi kept struggling with Zabuza in the war arc*. His enemy from the first arc of the manga.
> So much for growing stronger. lol



You do realize that _entire _fight can be explained by PIS, right? All Kakashi had to do was charge his kunai with Lightning Blade and run it through Zabuza's sword lol. Later on, Kakashi and Guy were able to hold his ground against Version 2 Jinchuriki that gave KCM Naruto lots of trouble and neither of them even used the MS or the Seventh Gate respectively, so...

Six Gated Guy beat 30% Kisame who > Zabuza.


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## Santoryu (Jun 25, 2020)

MaruUchiha said:


> Draco?




i was trying to emulate a different poster's style....
but i can see why you'd think that


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