# Toad Sage Mode vs Snake Sage Mode



## Johnny Cash (Jun 11, 2016)

Which has better moves?

Which has better benefits?

Overall better of the two?

Discuss.


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## Matty (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm not sure why, but was SM the reason Kabuto could use S5 jutsu? 

Either way they both seem to augment speed and reflexes. Both come with strong Genjutsu, and other great offensive power. I would go with Snake more tines than not, but idk if it is because Kabuto augmented himself or if it was all from the SM.

Either way the opponents Kabuto faced off against are much stronger than the Paths that Jiraiya faced off against. Not knocking Jiraiya, but it is true.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jun 12, 2016)

Kabuto had serious augments to himself that greatly enhanced his SM and even then SM Naruto is pretty close to him and could win 3/10 times


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## Bonly (Jun 12, 2016)

Both Modes gives you sensing and what not and they likely increase every stat though it seems that a Toad Sage Mode user has more physical strength. As for jutsu all a Toad Sage user has that is unique to them is Frog Kata which is great for surprise attacks and extra range while a Snake/Dragon Sage Mode user has white rage and Muki Tensei though we don't know the full extent of the latter and the former only worked so well due to the location, let Kabuto try that jutsu elsewhere and more times then not, it's not gonna be as good. 

I'd say that the modes themselves are equal more or less, well based on what we know that is


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

-- reactions to outclass EMS Sasuke and Edo Itachi who are much faster than SM Naruto. 
Speed and reactions go to Kabuto with ease 

 -- sound based abilities that completely nullified Susanoo whereas Narutos frog call only stunned peins summons
This also goes to Kabuto 

 -- ability to lift giant Bijuu sized summons and toss them over 30m above in the sky. As well as the ability to send deva flying back even when he blocked his kick.
Strength goes to Naruto by far 

overall. The boosts from Both SM are equivalent 
Only reason why Kabuto is above Naruto is because he's more versatile and augments more abilities with his SM 

Otherwise they're both on par with each other. Pound per pound that is


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## Android (Jun 12, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> Only reason why Kabuto is above Naruto is because he's more versatile and augments more abilities with his SM


hashirama's cells , tayuya's genjutsu , orochimaru's chakra , the sound 4 abilities , Karin's healing factor , suigetsu's liquifying ability ????? hello ??
Also SM naruto showed the better sensing


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 12, 2016)

Kabuto reaped more benefits from Snake Sage Mode because he had other people's DNA along with his own and his own extensive knowledge on ninjutsu made the benefits seem greater because he had greater versatility. In the end, I think the boosts each state gives are relatively equal, but Kabuto just happened to be a superior Sage User.


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## ARGUS (Jun 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> hashirama's cells , tayuya's genjutsu , orochimaru's chakra , the sound 4 abilities , Karin's healing factor , suigetsu's liquifying ability ????? hello ??


Thanks for proving my point 


> Also SM naruto showed the better sensing


Yet his reactions pale in comparison


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2016)

Kabuto had ukon cells which allowed him to use S5 techniques 
Removing rhat SM boost he got I don't feel is superior to what Naruto or Jiriaya got


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 12, 2016)

Sage Mode is Sage Mode, it shouldn't matter which of the only three places you can learn it from is.

Sage Mode does not give you jutsus, it just enhances what you already have.

Natural energy greatly increases strength, durability, speed, chakra, sensing, and jutsu power.

Frog Katas may or may not be exclusive to Toad Sage Mode, but it's a fighting style based around a Sage's ability to control where natural energy enters or _exits_ their body, which theoretically any Sage should be able to do.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Sage Mode is Sage Mode, it shouldn't matter which of the only three places you can learn it from is.
> 
> Sage Mode does not give you jutsus, it just enhances what you already have.
> 
> ...



It's called frog kata's 
So it is exclusive to frog sage mode 
Exclusive jutsu to the senjutsu art makes sense 
Doubt Jiriaya could use white rage


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## Rai (Jun 12, 2016)

Frog Call - can stunt Pain summons which are equal in size to Bunta who is Bijuu sized

Frong Song - GG if you're caught, but requires prep

Super strenght - that can lift Pain summons and throw them to the sky with ease

Frog Katas - unless you're a SM user you can't see this shit.

Sensing and speed increase should be the same.

Nin/Tai/Gen increase should be the same as well

Toad Sage Mode wins.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> It's called frog kata's
> So it is exclusive to frog sage mode
> Exclusive jutsu to the senjutsu art makes sense
> Doubt Jiriaya could use white rage



As I explained, the Toads created a fighting style using control of natural energy. 
It's possible that the snakes and slugs did not learn to use natural energy the same way, this why it's called "Frog Katas" and not something like "Sage Katas." So I won't make the argument that Kabuto and Hashirama can use them.

But Sage Mode does not give you jutsus; White Rage is Kabuto's jutsu, natural energy just makes it stronger.


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> As I explained, the Toads created a fighting style using control of natural energy.
> It's possible that the snakes and slugs did not learn to use natural energy the same way, this why it's called "Frog Katas" and not something like "Sage Katas." So I won't make the argument that Kabuto and Hashirama can use them.
> 
> But Sage Mode does not give you jutsus; White Rage is Kabuto's jutsu, natural energy just makes it stronger.



Who says SM doesn't give you jutsu when it gives you the ability to manipulate natural energy which u can't have till sage mode ?

Muki tensei is SM exclusive giving u the ability to give objects a will of their own 

As is frog kata's 

SM gives you jutsu that couldn't have been made more clear 

Would be like saying MS doesn't give you jutsu


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## Sapherosth (Jun 12, 2016)

Snake SM -> Ability to give life and control inorganic matter.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jun 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Who says SM doesn't give you jutsu when it gives you the ability to manipulate natural energy which u can't have till sage mode ?
> 
> Muki tensei is SM exclusive giving u the ability to give objects a will of their own
> 
> ...



Who says it does?

Fukasaku explained Sage Mode, and he says it just enhances what you have.

Hell, Kabuto said that Muki Tensei came from Orochimaru's research.


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## hbcaptain (Jun 12, 2016)

Sensor abilities ? I would say they're quite equal , Kabuto showed better reaction speed compared to Naruto only because his base stats are higher than him . And I forgot , Kabuto only reacted to EMS Sasuke's attacks 'cause his EMS wasn't at his best level . Post-Juubito Sasuke shits on SM Kabuto's reflexes , his eventual EMS adult version shits even worse .

Strengh ? I would say they are pretty equal since SM Kabuto showed no feats .

Enhanced chakra ? Pretty equal , all depends on the amount gathered and I would say SM Kabuto gather more Sage cakra than SM Naruto .


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2016)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Who says it does?
> 
> Fukasaku explained Sage Mode, and he says it just enhances what you have.
> 
> Hell, Kabuto said that Muki Tensei came from Orochimaru's research.



Which uses natural energy something u can only use in sage mode we going in circles here 
Pointless circles 

The techniques are listed as senjutsu 

Which means you can only use them in SM 

So SM gives you techniques


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## Clowe (Jun 12, 2016)

I'd say their both about equal...

The only reason Kabuto was superior is becaue he had a shit ton of other people DNA to augment him, Karin's healing, Suigetsu's liquifying, S5 abilities, and most importantly, Jugo passive ability to collect nature energy, which allows him to keep his SM up indefinitely, without that he would have a time limit just like Naruto.


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## Turrin (Jun 12, 2016)

Snake-SM and Toad-SM offer the same increases, only difference is one grants the user snake features and the other toad features. People are citing Kabuto performance like Snake-SM made things possible for him that Toad-SM doesn't make possible for it's user which is not true. Toad-SM grants the users the same natural energy sensing that Kabuto used to predict and avoid attacks from the Uchiha brothers; we've seen that w/ SM-Naruto's performance against Sandaime-Raikage & it was stated to be something Jiraiya could also do in DBIV, and therefore we know Fusaku & Shima could as well. Like wise Kabuto's ability to infuse life into the cave walls w/ Muki Tensei, is really no different than what Shima does with her Senjutsu Tongue technique to make her tongue come alive or what both Fusaku/Shima did w/ Jiraiya's hair to cause it crow ceaselessly so he can rapid fire Senbon w/ it. We've also been told and shown that Toad-SM enhances the power of all techniques whether they be Nin, Tai, or Genjtusu, so Kabuto using it to enhance the S5's techniques is nothing new. 

The only difference is the techniques Kabuto knows versus the techniques that Toad-SM users know. In Kabuto's case he has a better set of Techniques than say Jiraiya, Fusaku, & Shima, because he gained all the techniques of the people whose DNA he integrated.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 12, 2016)

don't think one can compare an alive tongue to giving inorganic life, a consciousness like kabuto did

so far techniques gotten from frog SM (not including shima and pa exclusive )

- frog katas

- Kebari senbon

-complete FRS (ability to throw )

vs

-muki tensei

- white rage

all depends on how you feel about the techniques


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

None of those techniques are exclusive to Toad Sages or Snake Sages.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> None of those techniques are exclusive to Toad Sages or Snake Sages.



And yet were shown to be 

Considering no toad sage has been implied to give life to inorganic matter 

And frog kata's is called just that 

Not sage kata's


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And yet were shown to be
> 
> Considering no toad sage has been implied to give life to inorganic matter
> 
> ...



 FRS isn't exclusive to Toad Sages as Naruto would've mastered it regardless of whether or not he had Toad or Snake Sage Mode, so some of the techniques you listed are just flawed. When was White Rage and Muki Tensei implied to be exclusive to Snake Sages? They're just using natural energy to perform those techniques as stated in the Databook and there's no indication it was exclusive to Snake Sages.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2016)

Kabuto and his SM were portrayed on a whole different level compared to Naruto and his SM. Sage jutsu of Kabuto are on completely different level to what we've seen from Naruto or Jiraiya.

But its impossible to know whether we should attribute those techniques to Sage mode or Kabuto himself. Probably a little bit of both, so I am not sure how fair it would be to directly compare those sage modes without accounting in the skillset of their users respectively.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> FRS isn't exclusive to Toad Sages as Naruto would've mastered it regardless of whether or not he had Toad or Snake Sage Mode, so some of the techniques you listed are just flawed. When was White Rage and Muki Tensei implied to be exclusive to Snake Sages? They're just using natural energy to perform those techniques as stated in the Databook and there's no indication it was exclusive to Snake Sages.



 didn't say it was
But SM gave him the ability to throw it 

Yet was only shown by a snake sage 

And 

Kabuto already explained he is the only one who can fight within white rage so why would other sage users who don't have his body learn such a jutsu ?


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> FRS isn't exclusive to Toad Sages as Naruto would've mastered it regardless of whether or not he had Toad or Snake Sage Mode, so some of the techniques you listed are just flawed. When was White Rage and Muki Tensei implied to be exclusive to Snake Sages? They're just using natural energy to perform those techniques as stated in the Databook and there's no indication it was exclusive to Snake Sages.



 didn't say it was
But SM gave him the ability to throw it 

Yet was only shown by a snake sage 

And 

Kabuto already explained he is the only one who can fight within white rage so why would other sage users who don't have his body learn such a jutsu ?


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## King Shark (Jun 13, 2016)

I'd say frog SM has the best physical abilities except reflexes and speed. DSM exclusive ninjutsu shits on frog kata, i guess you can say frog SM has the better sensory feats. I give it a draw.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 13, 2016)

Kabuto had his eyes closed for the entirety of the fight. How does toad SM have better sensory feats ? Whats the fastest most lethal attack toad SM allowed Naruto to react to ?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> didn't say it was
> But SM gave him the ability to throw it



 Okay, not exclusive to Toad Sages.



> Yet was only shown by a snake sage
> 
> And
> 
> Kabuto already explained he is the only one who can fight within white rage so why would other sage users who don't have his body learn such a jutsu ?



 Perhaps because it's an ability that he naturally developed because he could use Natural Energy? Databook only mentions usage of Natural Energy, so how Kabuto uses it enables him to use Muki Tensei and White Rage, not because he's a Snake Sage. That's pure speculation.


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## Icegaze (Jun 13, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Okay, not exclusive to Toad Sages.
> 
> 
> 
> Perhaps because it's an ability that he naturally developed because he could use Natural Energy? Databook only mentions usage of Natural Energy, so how Kabuto uses it enables him to use Muki Tensei and White Rage, not because he's a Snake Sage. That's pure speculation.





the abilities he developed white rage for example can only be used because of kabuto body. which means would only be learned by kabuto because of his body

muki tensei while not meeting this criteria control of inorganic matter was only shown by him. if its something any sage could use I am pretty sure that would have been stated

the same way frog katas was called FROG katas.

NATURAL energy allows you to control it. what the user does with it, is up to the user. the user can develop their own techniques with it. which cant be replicated by others

same way chakra allows ninja to develop their own techniques. some chakra based techniques are unique to their users, same for SM techniques


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 13, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> the abilities he developed white rage for example can only be used because of kabuto body. which means would only be learned by kabuto because of his body



Kabuto's very knowledgeable on ninjutsu due to possessing Orochimaru's intelligence, so his ability to learn White Rage could've stemmed from Orochimaru's research. I'm not sure how this point implies that it's a Snake Sage Exclusive ability.



> muki tensei while not meeting this criteria control of inorganic matter was only shown by him. if its something any sage could use I am pretty sure that would have been stated



That's because it's possibly a complex technique. Not many individuals can breathe life into the environment. The only few that were shown was Hashirama and Rikudou Users.



> the same way frog katas was called FROG katas.



I'd agree that it only pertains to Toad Sages simply because it's a fighting style that is only taught when mastering Toad Sage Mode. If this was taught to Snake Sages, they'd be more than capable of learning it as well.



> NATURAL energy allows you to control it. what the user does with it, is up to the user. the user can develop their own techniques with it. which cant be replicated by others
> 
> same way chakra allows ninja to develop their own techniques. some chakra based techniques are unique to their users, same for SM techniques



That's different. There's only 1 type of Natural Energy, but multiple different types of chakra dictated by one's unique DNA. White Rage is only mentioned to be a person's manipulation of Natural Energy, so if one is as intelligent and experienced as Kabuto, then they'd be able to use White Rage depending on their ability to use Senjutsu.

Overall, if we're referring to Kabuto's Snake Sage Mode and Naruto's Toad Sage Modes only, then I'd agree that Kabuto's Snake Sage Mode was superior to Naruto's, but in terms of the benefits each mode gives, I'd say they're roughly the same.


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2016)

Can't use white rage only for it to incapacitate you
One won't and can't learn it due to no inclination to self harm 

Anywayz it's gotten boring speaking to a wall 

Natural energy is like chakra people can learn jutsu unique to them the end 

You just arguing for the sake of it


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Can't use white rage only for it to incapacitate you
> One won't and can't learn it due to no inclination to self harm



 I'm not sure what you're implying here. 



> Natural energy is like chakra people can learn jutsu unique to them the end
> 
> You just arguing for the sake of it





 There is only one type of Natural Energy whereas there are multiple different types of chakra dictated by people's unique DNA which is why we have Kekkai Genkai in the first place. White Rage is referred to as manipulating natural energy into light, so I fail to see why it's unique to Snake Sages.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Jun 14, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> I'm not sure what you're implying here.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




And natural energy affects these people different types of chakra which are affected by their DNA
Natural energy is simply a boost


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> And natural energy affects these people different types of chakra which are affected by their DNA
> Natural energy is simply a boost



Except it's only referred to as manipulation of Natural Energy, so Kabuto's unique chakra is meaningless and has no impact on how he manipulates Natural Energy.

@Hussain

 Disliking my arguments without realizing that I'm arguing for his Fave's Sage Mode. Classic Hussain.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except it's only referred to as manipulation of Natural Energy, so Kabuto's unique chakra is meaningless and has no impact on how he manipulates Natural Energy.
> 
> @Hussain
> 
> Disliking my arguments without realizing that I'm arguing for his Fave's Sage Mode. Classic Hussain.



Ok, since u fine with being wrong 

Till proven otherwise 

The techniques such by each sage is theirs and their alone 

Kabuto can't use frog call or frog song 

And they can't use his techniques 

The end


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok, since u fine with being wrong
> 
> Till proven otherwise
> 
> ...



 Frog Call and Frog Song are down by the Two Great Toad Sages, White Rage and Muki Tensei aren't. Shitty comparison and quite frankly, if you won't attempt a rebuttal, I'll accept your concession and move on.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Frog Call and Frog Song are down by the Two Great Toad Sages, White Rage and Muki Tensei aren't. Shitty comparison and quite frankly, if you won't attempt a rebuttal, I'll accept your concession and move on.



Cute
I'll accept your scans
Since you don't have em
Guess I can't concede

Out of curiousity why is it different for the toads

Isn't jt the same natural energy they are controlling ?
Or is there a frog only natural energy which doesn't apply to humans 

So if they can do Kabuto techs despite the fact that white rage requires u to be able to cover ur eyes with skin while fighting something toads can't do 

Then exZcfly why can't Kabuto croak like a frog if they suddenly can have snake features 

Oh btw what of Jugo ? Since he uses senjutsu as well should we assume any sage can use his techniques ?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Cute
> I'll accept your scans
> Since you don't have em
> Guess I can't concede



 Nah, you're the only implying that White Rage and Muki Tensei are Snake Sage Exclusive, so you need scans suggesting that it is. Until then, you have no point.



> Out of curiousity why is it different for the toads
> 
> Isn't jt the same natural energy they are controlling ?
> Or is there a frog only natural energy which doesn't apply to humans



 Because those techniques are implied to be exclusive to the Great Toad Sages because it strictly requires the combination of their voices to perform the melody correctly.



> So if they can do Kabuto techs despite the fact that white rage requires u to be able to cover ur eyes with skin while fighting something toads can't do



 No, all that means it's more effective for a Snake Sage, not that shutting their eyes is requires to even use it.



> Then exZcfly why can't Kabuto croak like a frog if they suddenly can have snake features
> 
> Oh btw what of Jugo ? Since he uses senjutsu as well should we assume any sage can use his techniques?



 This is highly irrelevant as you haven't yet proven that White Rage and Muki Tensei are exclusive to Snake Sages.


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## Icegaze (Jun 15, 2016)

It's Kk
I guess Jugo a sage can use most sage techniques then
Rather hax Jugo 
Rather hax 

If only he knew that .


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