# Emperor Level ranking against Admirals.



## Gledania (Aug 2, 2018)

How do you Rank every Emperor from the Stronger to the weakest, and what difficulty do you think admirals can give to each one of them ?   (By portrayal and/or feats).




My list :

Primebeard + EoS Teach : Would midd/high diff any Admiral. Low/mid diff fuji.

Oldbear full sanity + Kaido : Would High/extrem Ao kiji , Aka inu ,and High diff Kizaru , Mid diff Fuji.

BM : Extrem diff Aka inu and Ao kiji. High diff Kizaru.( Problem is ... I don't know how she can catch his speed...so really unsure about that)  midd diff fuji.

Shanks : Extrem diff Aka inu/Aokiji . High/Extrem diff Kizaru , Mid diff fuji.


Current Teach is a total mystery for me .... 
*

BONUS. *

Current Luffy : Both Aka inu and Kuzan beat him (mid to high diff) Kizaru beath him High diff. Fuji could go either way extrem diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 2, 2018)

Kaido, Shanks, BB, BM - all of them High diff admirals.


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## goombanthime (Aug 2, 2018)

prime whitbeard: win mid-low diff

old whitbeard: win high-mid diff

Shanks: win extreme-high diff

Kaido: win extreme-high diff

BM: loss extreme-high diff (lacks stamina, was nearly dead after 8 hour while admirals can fight for days on end)

Luffy: loss mid-low diff


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## Dunno (Aug 2, 2018)

Kaido needs very high diff against Akainu and high diff against the Admirals. 
Shanks or Blackbeard vs Akainu can go either way, and they beat the Admirals with very high diff.
Big Mom loses to Akainu with high diff and to Admirals with very high diff. 
Luffy can give Admirals mid diff.


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## Gledania (Aug 3, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Kaido needs very high diff against Akainu and high diff against the Admirals.
> Shanks or Blackbeard vs Akainu can go either way, and they beat the Admirals with very high diff.
> Big Mom loses to Akainu with high diff and to Admirals with very high diff.
> Luffy can give Admirals mid diff.



Why would shanks > Kaido anyway ?


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 3, 2018)

Considering BM has been shown to have possibly the weakest core crew, I wouldn't rank her individually below any of the other yonko by a marginal margin.

I assume BM and Kaido are the most tanky and have the most raw physical strength, so they should be able to overpower someone like Fujitora the easiest, being the only known admiral that would get beaten at mid diff.

Otherwise all yonko should be able to high diff the rest of the known admirals, with varying levels of high diff. I don't see even Akainu pushing any of them to extreme diff/close to death though.


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## Canute87 (Aug 3, 2018)

Prime whitebeard is the only one i see who can "comfortably" beat an admiral.


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## charles101 (Aug 3, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Considering BM has been shown to have possibly the weakest core crew



You know that we didn't really see any other Yonkou commander other than Jack and Burgess in action, right? Kaido's 3rd strongest man, Jack should be somewhere around Doflamingo's lvl, where majority of community put Cracker (BM's 3rd strongest man) as well. Burgess wasn't that impressive at all. Of course there's a possibility but it's quite far fetched assumption.


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## Dunno (Aug 3, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Why would shanks > Kaido anyway ?


Shanks could be stronger, but it's unlikely at the moment. That's why I believe that Kaido beats Admirals more easily.


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## charles101 (Aug 3, 2018)

Some people say that Shanks is the strongest dude because he's kind of Luffy's mentor, so he has to be at top of the top. Thing is, he already is. Being a Yonkou alone is more than enough for "Main Character's mentor" imo. Yonkou and Admirals are final villians in general (unless we'll see some plot twist with Im). Imo SHP will face nerfed top tiers (WCI Big Mom, maybe Wano Kaido too), then top tiers in general (Admirals, maybe Elbaf Big Mom) or top tiers on steroids (like final battle again Blackbeard). Just because Kaido's gonna be defeated before Shanks, doesn't mean that he has weaker than him. Furthermore, there're actually clues that indicate that Kaido should be the strongest known (Im?) creature at the moment.


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## Gohara (Aug 3, 2018)

Pirate king ranking characters > fleet admirals and average yonkou with around mid to high difficulty who are > average admirals with around mid to high difficulty in my opinion.


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## FakeTaxi1738 (Aug 3, 2018)

prime WB high diff an admiral
oldwb extrem diff an admiral
kaido extrem diff an admiral expect akainu  : akainu win extrem diff
shanks extrem diff an admiral :depends who hes fighting and he loses to akainu for sure
big mom loses high-extrem diff to an admiral
BB extrem diff an admiral expect akainu

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## goombanthime (Aug 3, 2018)

Why are people putting Akainu above the other admiral, Aokiji could fight him for 10 days.
Also it's stated that marinford WB is weaker than old WB as his condition was worsening, Akainu could only hit him twice, one of them was right after he had a heart attack and when he already had hundred of stab wounds and accepted his death yet he could still knock him out in two blows and still have enough energies to nearly destroy Marinford and nearly kill BB


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## Luke (Aug 3, 2018)

Whitebeard > Kaidou/Shanks > Akainu > Big Mom/Kizaru/Kuzan > Fujitora


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## Furinji Saiga (Aug 3, 2018)

Kaido and Akainu are very slightly ahead of Shanks  

Shanks is >= Kizaru, Aokiji, Fujitora, Big Mom, Greenbull => BB( he will become more powerful later on) 

All these match ups are very close, more then high difficulty is needed in determining the winner. 

Prime WB would be above all of them, though once again needs high difficulty in winning.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 3, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Why are people putting Akainu above the other admiral, Aokiji could fight him for 10 days.


They're thinking that Akainu has a lot of potential left but imo he is already in his level cap but who knows maybe he really get stronger.


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## GilDLax (Aug 4, 2018)

PrimeWB-EoSBB: self-explanatory

Kaidou: WSCreature

Akainu-BB-OldWB: 
+Akainu: Fleet Admiral, maybe getting even stronger after fighting Aokiji (once in a lifetime chance training LOL) and Luffy's opponent in final war vs Marines
+BB: well, if he has plenty mastery over Quake fruit now plus complete mastery of Darkness...also crushed Marco to an overwhelmingly defeat in Revenge War. Yeah, I know it was a War but normally you'd think BB would match-up with Marco.
+OldWB: WSMan at the time so of course ranks higher than the rest who are all, presumably, human.

BM-Shanks-Kizaru-Aokiji-Fuji toss-up (very extreme-diff to beat each other): Assuming none of them get stronger after time-skip. Each has his/her own strengths and weaknesses. I bet on Kizaru being the strongest and just nerf'ed because, well, light...and BM is the weakest cause her hunger pang sucks.


The difference between each rank is minimal IMO. Kaidou would need very high-diff to beat Aokiji for example.

And depends on whether Oda would want Luffy to surpass the old generation. If he does, then EoSLuffy should be more than Roger level and so BB or Akainu should be close accordingly otherwise it wouldn't be a good fight.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 4, 2018)

goombanthime said:


> Why are people putting Akainu above the other admiral, Aokiji could fight him for 10 days.
> Also it's stated that marinford WB is weaker than old WB as his condition was worsening, Akainu could only hit him twice, one of them was right after he had a heart attack and when he already had hundred of stab wounds and accepted his death yet he could still knock him out in two blows and still have enough energies to nearly destroy Marinford and nearly kill BB


Because Akainu is the main villain from the marines and Luffy has the most incentive to fight him out of all the admirals down the road, so obviously he's going to be the strongest.

Not to mention that he did beat Aokiji and he was the most impressive admiral during the Marineford war.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 4, 2018)

Kaido
Akainu
Teach
Aokiji/Shanks/Kizaru
BM/Fujitora

High/Extreme difficulty for anyone to beat anyone else on the list though.


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## Gledania (Aug 4, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> BM/Fuji


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 4, 2018)

Gledania said:


>



Did you not read WCI?


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## Gledania (Aug 4, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Did you not read WCI?



I did.  she was badly portrayed and was losing control after the shock., but yet she can casually stop KKG without a scratch. 

Fuji on the other hand didn't scare donflamingo...

I doubt he can fight a yonko. I don't put him with the previous admiral level.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 4, 2018)

Gledania said:


> I did.  she was badly portrayed and was losing control after the shock., but yet she can casually stop KKG without a scratch.
> 
> Fuji on the other hand didn't scare donflamingo...
> 
> I doubt he can fight a yonko. I don't put him with the previous admiral level.



Too bad what you think doesn't ultimately matter. 

BM got sent flying by Jinbei and members of the weakling trio were able to humiliate her. Regardless of what you think of Fujitora, nothing that happened to him on DR came even close to reflecting that negatively on him.

There's got to be a time when you shed your pre-held beliefs about this stuff and instead analyse events as they happen in the manga and factor them in. Oda demonstrated a serious lack of respect and portrayal for BM during WCI that no _top tier_ so far has ever had - that's got to count for something.

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## GilDLax (Aug 4, 2018)

Gledania said:


> but yet she can casually stop KKG without a scratch.


Kong Gun. And nothing says Fuji can't deal with that. He got punched by Elephant Gun but that didn't do anything besides a tiny little bruise and that was a surprise attack. On the other hand you see how Ferocious Tiger threw Luffy away like an insect and then Fuji's feat of lifting the whole island worth of rubble...the AoE so befitting of Admiral's capability.



Gledania said:


> Fuji on the other hand didn't scare donflamingo...


And BM scared DD when? Only Kaidou did and you can argue DD isn't scared of Kaidou himself but the idea that Kaidou's whole force will destroy his family. Hell, even if DD was Emperor level, he would still be scared because what's the point of his being on the same level as Kaidou's if the rest of his crew is shit to Kaidou's crew? Look at Moria, he used to rival Kaidou but his crew is so shit he lost them all and opted for undead army instead.

Second, Caesar was confident with DD behind him he can be 100% safe from BM. That says something, right?

And finally, of course DD wasn't that scared of Fuji. He had the Tenryuubito/CP-0 behind him. And they were on Dresrosa, his home advantage is everywhere. The context is after dealing with Luffy and co, he and his family will gang up on Fuji, I believe. The rest of Marines there, including Vice Admirals like Bastille and Maynard, are just one-shot characters to DD.


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## TheWiggian (Aug 4, 2018)

Old healthy WB >= WSC Kaidou >= FA Akainu
>
Akainu >= Shanks = Aokiji = Kizaru
>
BM sane = Fujitora = Ryokugyu >= BlackYonkBeard

The gaps are still unbelievably marginal and barely result in difficulty differences


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## charles101 (Aug 4, 2018)

@Gledania

You have to deal with it. People here like to assume that everything bad what happened to BM during WCI would happen to her in every single fight. You won't see anyone who would seriously admit that he think that during fight against other top tier Garp could fall asleep, Whitebeard would have a heart attack each 5 seconds or Aokiji would decide to lie down due to being too lazy, though. Whenever you see someone who's acting like BM wasn't nerfed in late WCI (and her "fight" against Chopper/Jinbei is peak of her abilities), you might as well end discussion there. If someone is so biased that he can't see/doesn't want to admit obvious things, you'll just waste your time.

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## Sumu (Aug 4, 2018)

Primebeard/Eos Blackbeard 
Shanks/Kaido
Akainu
Blackbeard
Big Mom/Aokiji/Kizaru
Fujitora 

Aside from Primebeard and Eos Teach, I can see most fights between Yonko and Admirals being extreme diff.


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## Fel1x (Aug 4, 2018)

Primebeard mid diff every admiral
Kaido high end of mid diff every admiral (exept Akainu, it will be high diff)

Others high diff admirals (BM too)

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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 4, 2018)

charles101 said:


> @Gledania
> 
> You have to deal with it. People here like to assume that everything bad what happened to BM during WCI would happen to her in every single fight. You won't see anyone who would seriously admit that he think that during fight against other top tier Garp could fall asleep, Whitebeard would have a heart attack each 5 seconds or Aokiji would decide to lie down due to being too lazy, though. Whenever you see someone who's acting like BM wasn't nerfed in late WCI (and her "fight" against Chopper/Jinbei is peak of her abilities), you might as well end discussion there. If someone is so biased that he can't see/doesn't want to admit obvious things, you'll just waste your time.



Yes because BM has been the only top tier that's had plot work against her hasn't she? I mean it's not like other top tiers have never encountered the SH's before? 


Jesus Christ ........ the lengths people will go on to protect the status quo and ignore things literally happening in the manga. It's pathetic.


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## charles101 (Aug 4, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Yes because BM has been the only top tier that's had plot work against her hasn't she? I mean it's not like other top tiers have never encountered the SH's before?



No, but noone give a damn about pre-skip Zoro blocking Aokiji's attacks, pre-skip Sanji kicking off swords out of his hands or Robin clutching him instantly. Noone cares that Luffy succesfully dodged almost all Mihawk's attacks on Marineford and these which hit him did basically no damage whatsoever. Noone really bring up Shanks losing arm to fish in serious threads. Or that Kizaru was unable to catch one single Supernova on Sabaody. Everyone know that in normal fight, these scrubs would die horribly. Unless this top tier is Big Mom. She's only exception. Everyone can be nerfed, but she cannot.

I won't even make a comment about this "it's pathetic" part, because this part itself speaks about what you present here. You can "Tier specialist" me to the bone, like I said, I won't waste my time.

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## Gohara (Aug 4, 2018)

@Gledania 

Indeed and also even without gear 4th Luffy pushes back Fujitora and there is also Zoro with one sword overpowering Fujitora's gravity.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 4, 2018)

charles101 said:


> No, but noone give a damn about pre-skip Zoro blocking Aokiji's attacks, pre-skip Sanji kicking off swords out of his hands or Robin clutching him instantly. Noone cares that Luffy succesfully dodged almost all Mihawk's attacks on Marineford and these which hit him did basically no damage whatsoever. Noone really bring up Shanks losing arm to fish in serious threads. Or that Kizaru was unable to catch one single Supernova on Sabaody. Everyone know that in normal fight, these scrubs would die horribly. Unless this top tier is Big Mom. She's only exception. Everyone can be nerfed, but she cannot.
> 
> I won't even make a comment about this "it's pathetic" part, because this part itself speaks about what you present here. You can "Tier specialist" me to the bone, like I said, I won't waste my time.



Literally the only reason why you and everyone else rate Fujitora lower than the other admirals and top tiers is because of his performance against Luffy and to a lesser extent Zoro where he took on that Gear 3 elephant gun and got pushed back against a nameless Zoro slash respectively. That's it. No consideration of the fact that he was a good guy who didn't have his heart set on taking them out. Double standards and you're too blinded to even acknowledge it.

BM's performance and circumstances surrounding her humiliation are a _lot worse_ than that and for the record the so called bad situations for the other top tiers no matter how much you try and pretend that their similar.


And congratulations you've already made two posts about this topic. I look forward to you replying to this post with a coda at the end saying you _"won't waste your time"_ ...... after apparently being more than prepared to do so. Basically GrizzlyClaws 2.0 .... a sanctimonious hack that's too ashamed to even admit that he's a hack.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 4, 2018)

Why we are not seeing the Admirals as if they are the big bosses of this series right now? Because they are not, Fujitora was nothing like that in DR and Luffy didn't even use G4 on him, Aokiji as well. 

The portrayal says that the Admirals aren't equal to Yonko.

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## Gohara (Aug 4, 2018)

Fujitora isn't required to incapacitate Luffy to successfully stand his ground against gear 3rd.


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## Ruse (Aug 4, 2018)

Kaido
Shanks/BB
Akainu 
BM/ Aokiji
Kizaru/Fujitora


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## Gianfi (Aug 4, 2018)

Whitebeard can extreme diff Current Akainu 

Kaido is 50/50 against Akainu or loses extreme diff, beats with high/extreme diff the rest 

Shanks gets extreme diffed by Akainu, beats high/extreme diff the rest

BM gets high diffed by Akainu, beats extreme diff Akainu/Aokiji, high diff Fuji

Post-skip BB is featless


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## Gledania (Aug 4, 2018)

Gianfi said:


> Whitebeard can extreme diff Current Akainu



Prime or Old ?


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## Gianfi (Aug 4, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Prime or Old ?


Old, no idea about prime


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 4, 2018)

Gianfi said:


> Kaido is 50/50 against Akainu or loses extreme diff, beats with high/extreme diff the rest


This is interesting, why though? because we didn't see Kaido in action yet?



Admiral Kizaru said:


> And congratulations you've already made two posts about this topic. I look forward to you replying to this post with a coda at the end saying you _"won't waste your time"_ ...... after apparently being more than prepared to do so. Basically GrizzlyClaws 2.0 .... a sanctimonious hack that's too ashamed to even admit that he's a hack.


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## trance (Aug 4, 2018)

akainu stalemates shanks, beats meme after a good fight and loses to wb and kaido after a great fight

the rest of the admirals do nearly as well as he does


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## GilDLax (Aug 5, 2018)

Yeah because Mihawk, Aokiji and Kizaru were so serious. BM was the only top-tier who is ridiculed by Oda whilst being utterly serious. Her hunger pang that weakened her counts though

And LOL at people who say ''they are just nerf'ed'' yet somehow didn't think Fuji was the same and willingly put him below other top-tiers...

Be consistent...you can't have it both ways. Fuji's having a tiny little bruise from DresrosaLuffy's Elephant Gun is worse than than pre-TSLuffy's kicking Aokiji how?

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## Dunno (Aug 5, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Yeah because Mihawk, Aokiji and Kizaru were so serious. BM was the only top-tier who is ridiculed by Oda whilst being utterly serious. Her hunger pang that weakened her counts though
> 
> And LOL at people who say ''they are just nerf'ed'' yet somehow didn't think Fuji was the same and willingly put him below other top-tiers...
> 
> Be consistent...you can't have it both ways. *Fuji's having a tiny little bruise from DresrosaLuffy's Elephant Gun is worse than than pre-TSLuffy's kicking Aokiji how?*


And it wasn't even a bruise. It was dust, seeing as it disappeared the very next panel.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Yeah because Mihawk, Aokiji and Kizaru were so serious. BM was the only top-tier who is ridiculed by Oda whilst being utterly serious. Her hunger pang that weakened her counts though
> 
> And LOL at people who say ''they are just nerf'ed'' yet somehow didn't think Fuji was the same and willingly put him below other top-tiers...
> 
> Be consistent...you can't have it both ways. Fuji's having a tiny little bruise from DresrosaLuffy's Elephant Gun is worse than than pre-TSLuffy's kicking Aokiji how?



As I've implied these guys are a joke who are too ingrained with their belief system to even realise their own hackery. Their artificial tiering is all that matters to them.


Fujitora gets a dirt mark against Luffy (that disappears next chapter as Dunno points out) and gets pushed back a bit against Zoro_ - "Yeah it proves he's the weakest Admiral and top tier around!!!!! 
_
BM literally gets sent flying by Jinbe and clowned around by the weakling trio despite having solid motivation to harm them - _"NERF NERF NERF! We have to ignore this!!!!!!!!!"
_

I'm not even saying that she's weak or that she's not a top tier - I'm saying she's had the worst portrayal out of any top tier so far. 

But apparently saying that she's equal to Fujitora is so insulting for people like @Gledania , @charles101 and the like when in reality it's given her the benefit of doubt as Fujitora never came close to receiving this level of shockingly abysmal portrayal in his arc.

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## FakeTaxi1738 (Aug 5, 2018)

fujitora was nerfed , he gave his blood to manshelly more than once and we know how her power works, fodder marines couldnt even move after giving their blood and Fujitora was lifting all the rubbles on the entire island while fighting Luffy and he wasnt even serious LOL, and we got big meme trying to kill chopper carrot nami
btw big mom losing her weight isnt a nerf thats how her body work if she doesnt eat for 8hours she'll start to  get skinny and losing power... she is clearly the ,'weakest' top tier also I hope nobody here thinks BM can defeat another top tier in less than 8hours.


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## Gianfi (Aug 5, 2018)

Don King said:


> This is interesting, why though? because we didn't see Kaido in action yet?


Well, Kaido is considered after the death of WB the strongest creature around, but Akainu will likely be one of the main antagonist by EoS (possibly Luffy’s or Sabo’s) so I guess I would give him the edge over Kaido just because of the role he will play. When we will see more about Kaido I may change my mind though


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## Gianfi (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> As I've implied these guys are a joke who are too ingrained with their belief system to even realise their own hackery. Their artificial tiering is all that matters to them.
> 
> 
> Fujitora gets a dirt mark against Luffy (that disappears next chapter as Dunno points out) and gets pushed back a bit against Zoro_ - "Yeah it proves he's the weakest Admiral and top tier around!!!!!
> ...


During the Marineford arc Kizaru was pitted against the likes of Marco and Benn Beckman, while Kata was shitting his pants at the idea of facing BM even with the help of some other crew members, like Perospero. Portrayal alone clearly indicates Oda’s view on who’s stronger between an admiral and a Yonko. Add to this BM’s versatility, that is, her capability to use Napoleon as a sword and seconds later switch to CqC, not to mention Prometheus and Zeus, and it’s quite easy to understand why Oda values her and the Yonko above your average admiral


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

Gianfi said:


> During the Marineford arc Kizaru was pitted against the likes of Marco and Benn Beckman, while Kata was shitting his pants at the idea of facing BM even with the help of some other crew members, like Perospero. Portrayal alone clearly indicates Oda’s view on who’s stronger between an admiral and a Yonko. Add to this BM’s versatility, that is, her capability to use Napoleon as a sword and seconds later switch to CqC, not to mention Prometheus and Zeus, and it’s quite easy to understand why Oda values her and the Yonko above your average admiral



He was also pitted against Whitebeard at times alongside the other Admirals. By your logic that means Kizaru = Whitebeard.


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## Gianfi (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> He was also pitted against Whitebeard at times alongside the other Admirals. By your logic that means Kizaru = Whitebeard.


No. He faced WB briefly, after he had already gone through a lot of fighting. Besides, I repeat, during the was he was seen clashing with Marco, and later being threatened by Benn Beckman, even stopping his chase because of Benn’s threats of fighting him. On the other side, Kata didn’t think he could have stopped BM from destroying the island even with help from other crew members. It’s not hard to see that Admirals are closer to FMs than Yonko are. And therefore Yonko>Admirals. The only exception may be Akainu, who was the one who engaged WB the most during the war (even though he lost) and later defeated Kuzan. Also, Akainu’s status as Sabo’s or Luffy’s main marine antagonist by EoS hypes him up a bit. And this is why I have him possibly stronger than every Yonko except maybe EoS BB and Luffy. Unfortunately, Kizaru and Fuji don’t have this much hype. And this is only from a portrayal point of view, BM is one of the most complete fighters we have seen so far, it’s basically as if she ate more than one DF, so this is gives her a bonus advantage against a foe


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

Gianfi said:


> No. He faced WB briefly, after he had already gone through a lot of fighting. Besides, I repeat, during the was he was seen clashing with Marco, and later being threatened by Benn Beckman, even stopping his chase because of Benn’s threats of fighting him. On the other side, Kata didn’t think he could have stopped BM from destroying the island even with help from other crew members. It’s not hard to see that Admirals are closer to FMs than Yonko are. And therefore Yonko>Admirals. The only exception may be Akainu, who was the one who engaged WB the most during the war (even though he lost) and later defeated Kuzan. Also, Akainu’s status as Sabo’s or Luffy’s main marine antagonist by EoS hypes him up a bit. And this is why I have him possibly stronger than every Yonko except maybe EoS BB and Luffy. Unfortunately, Kizaru and Fuji don’t have this much hype. And this is only from a portrayal point of view, BM is one of the most complete fighters we have seen so far, it’s basically as if she ate more than one DF, so this is gives her a bonus advantage against a foe



He had a brief scuffle with Marco just as he had a brief scuffle with WB. I'm not sure the Beckman interaction counts for anything as it's just him brazenly ignoring him and doing what he wanted to. You're selectively deciding which brief scuffle you want to highlight to suit your agenda.

And you do realise that a lot of that is because that because she's their mother and they didn't really want to fight her. At any rate, I think the gap between the top tiers and the level below (YFM) is quite large as evidenced by the fact that we've already had a YFM fall.

And lol BM and Kaido for that matter are even more irrelevant to the EoS  than Kizaru and Fujitora. I mean..... I'm not sure if you're able to read the signs but do realise that both BM and Kaido are going to fall soon and won't be around for the final stages of this manga.

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## charles101 (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> But apparently saying that she's equal to Fujitora is so insulting for people like @Gledania , @charles101 and the like when in reality it's given her the benefit of doubt as Fujitora never came close to receiving this level of shockingly abysmal portrayal in his arc.



Since you're tagging me here for some reason, can you at least tell me when I said something like this about Fujitora? Him being pushed away by Luffy doesn't indicate anything.


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## Gledania (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I'm not sure if you're able to read the signs but do realise that both BM and Kaido are going to fall soon and won't be around for the final stages of this manga




Then let me ask you this : 


Who exatly in the end is going to face Kizaru fuji and green bull ?

What relevance is for Oda to give 4 yonko level to the marine (knowing the WG can provide others to them) ?

Wich character do you think is going to reach the yonko title in the EoS ?

I don't really care wich part is strongest between them  (I'm not a fan of any yonko or admiral , exept kizaru 2nd fav character overall) but I don't see what's the point for Oda to give them the same level with yonko.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

charles101 said:


> Since you're tagging me here for some reason, can you at least tell me when I said something like this about Fujitora? Him being pushed away by Luffy doesn't indicate anything.



Well the post that @Gledania got salty about which you then decided to not so subtly have a dig at me about is me placing Fujitora & BM on the same level. 

See above.


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## Gledania (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Well the post that @Gledania got salty about which you then decided to not so subtly have a dig at me about is me placing Fujitora & BM on the same level.
> 
> See above.




Salty ??   when ?


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## charles101 (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Well the post that @Gledania got salty about which you then decided to not so subtly have a dig at me about is me placing Fujitora & BM on the same level.



Not about placing them at the same level but placing them bellow rest because they're inlucky enough to face immortal SHP who were eager to fight them. Judge top tiers when we'll see them fighting against someone strong. Like we know that Aokiji is weaker than Akainu and that Kaido is probably the strongest one. That's all.

And not specifically about you but "people in here". People like to shet on BM, ignoring that Luffy needed 2 power ups and 11 hours to defeat someone way weaker than her and than saying her defense in not enough to block Jinbei and offense is not enough to hurt Chopper. Why would she be captain, if she's weaker than Snack (rethorical)?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Then let me ask you this :
> 
> 
> Who exatly in the end is going to face Kizaru fuji and green bull ?
> ...



Probably either EoS Zoro, maybe a SN, Sabo ..... but they'll be around for that presumably. 

Not sure if Fujitora will fight anyone as he seems to be a good guy who doesn't like the WG's bs. 


I think the following with be certified top tiers come the EoS: Luffy, Zoro ,Coby, Sabo and probably a SN or two (Law & Kidd).


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> I think the following with be certified top tiers come the EoS: Luffy, Zoro ,*Coby*, Sabo and probably a SN or two (Law & Kidd).


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

charles101 said:


> Not about placing them at the same level but placing them bellow rest because they're inlucky enough to face immortal SHP who were eager to fight them. Judge top tiers when we'll see them fighting against someone strong. Like we know that Aokiji is weaker than Akainu and that Kaido is probably the strongest one. That's all.



That's your choice. But most people like to take into account portrayal and both Fuji and to a much larger extent BM had some bad moments during their arcs which is why people place them at the bottom of the top tier spectrum for the time being. 

There are ways where a top tier credibility and dignity can be maintained despite coming against the SHP and their plot armour. See it requiring Rayleigh to stop Kizaru at Shabondy or Akainu's rampage being halted by the collective efforts of the WB pirates and Shanks. If Oda actually cares about protecting the integrity of a character (e.g. Akainu) he'll go out of his way to do so. He clearly had no such qualms about doing that for BM during WCI - ie. bad portrayal.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GilDLax (Aug 5, 2018)

BB: one-shot by Magellan. Even if he already had the Quake fruit by then, still didn't change a thing cause he didn't even manage to react shit.
WB: old, could not dodge Squardo's stab, failed to hurt Kizaru and Aokiji and only managed to hurt Akainu a bit thanks to a blindsiding attack which led to his losing half his face. Not exactly winning that exchange.
Shanks: lost an arm to fodder sea monster. Now Mihawk doesn't even bother to fight him. 
BM: Stomach is so bad has hunger pang and weakend by it every few days. Whereas Akainu vs Aokiji in 10 days.

Oda sure cares a lot to ridicule his beloved Yonkou.

Kaidou is basically the only one maintaining Yonkou's dignity now by virtue of...not fighting yet. Let see for how long (answer: till Wano ends). 

Admirals on the other hand have never lost dignity that bad
Kizaru: put against Marco and Rayleigh. Not random sea monster or Squardo or several-tier-below characters. And even then Marco didn't hurt him. Rayleigh was losing breath for a bit fighting him.
Aokiji: was merely joking around vs Monster Trio. In the end still no-diff-ing them and letting them go cause Luffy beat Crocodile for Marines. If you think that's a bad feat the same way Yonkou are ridiculed then you have no fucking reading comprehension...
Akainu: need I say more? No sell Marco and Vista's attacks. Blindsided by WB the WSM with the sick Quake fruit yet immediately punched back and got half WB's face. 
Fuji: got a tiny little bruise from Elephant Gun. Big deal! Later he sent Luffy flying with Ferocious Tiger (side-way Gravity). Zolo pushed him back? But he perfectly blocked it and Zolo was the one spitting blood cause unable to handle the gravity. Not sure if people put eyes behind their heads when reading or something to not see who's the superior. And don't tell me Fuji blindsided. He blocked, not attacked. If Zolo couldn't handle the gravity anw it doesn't make a difference. Finally Fuji lifted all the rubbles on the island. Such AoE...only WB's quake and AokijivsAkainu that changed Punk Hazard's climate have the same scale.

Literally every time Admirals were put into a seemingly bad situation, they manage to show they are not affected by it, can handle it or outright own the opponent anw. And Kizaru just said leave Kaidou+BM's meeting to him. Akainu didn't even care to stop him because of the Yonkou, he stopped him because he didn't want to take a chance vs Wano's Samurai who are unknown force and I call that being careful and wise, not weak. Just like how Aizen can fodderize everyone except Yamaji in Fake Karakura Town yet he still put a proteciton barrier behind his neck. He doesn't want to leave things to chance.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> See it requiring Rayleigh to stop Kizaru at Shabondy or Akainu's rampage being halted by the collective efforts of the WB pirates and Shanks. If Oda actually cares about protecting the integrity of a character (e.g. Akainu) he'll go out of his way to do so. He clearly had no such qualms about doing that for BM during WCI - ie. bad portrayal.


 idk if those are really 1 to 1 comparisons seeing as those happened pre-skip and under conditions where it’s much easier to throw a top tier between them to save the day. 1. The whole point of the time skip was so they wouldn’t need to be saved. 2. In the case of big mom how does Oda have some top tier show up out of nowhere with how wci was set up?
I’ll say that thinking there are tiers for each title in the series is silly and that not every admiral has to be below all the yonko. But big mom being weaker than every admiral doesn’t make sense. Why wouldn’t the world gov just take her out? Although it could be for balance maintenance like they were worried about during the reverie.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 5, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> BB: one-shot by Magellan. Even if he already had the Quake fruit by then, still didn't change a thing cause he didn't even manage to react shit.
> WB: old, could not dodge Squardo's stab, failed to hurt Kizaru and Aokiji and only managed to hurt Akainu a bit thanks to a blindsiding attack which led to his losing half his face. Not exactly winning that exchange.
> Shanks: lost an arm to fodder sea monster. Now Mihawk doesn't even bother to fight him.
> BM: Stomach is so bad has hunger pang and weakend by it every few days. Whereas Akainu vs Aokiji in 10 days.
> ...



Aokiji got damaged by Jozu. Akainu couldn't even see Croc coming when he slashed him in half. Marco did send Kizaru flying. Zoro did push Fujitora back with a flying slash while under the effects of Fuji's crushing gravity.

You're just selectively interpreting everything in the admiral's favor.


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## GilDLax (Aug 5, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Aokiji got damaged by Jozu. Akainu couldn't even see Croc coming when he slashed him in half.
> 
> Marco did send Kizaru flying. Zoro did push Fujitora back with a flying slash while under the effects of Fuji's crushing gravity.
> 
> You're just selectively interpreting everything in the admiral's favor.


Blindsided attacks are blindsided. And when they are blindsided yet did nothing or just tiny cut on the lip then...says a lot about the difference LOL Look at WB blindsiding Akainu or Luffy surpriseRed Hawk on DD for referrence. At least hurt the opponent like that LOL

Already addressed.

No, I just took pity and didn't list even more evidences Admirals are less ridiculed LOL


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 5, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Blindsided attacks are blindsided. And when they are blindsided yet did nothing or just tiny cut on the lip then...says a lot about the difference LOL Look at WB blindsiding Akainu or Luffy surpriseRed Hawk on DD for referrence. At least hurt the opponent like that LOL
> 
> Already addressed.
> 
> No, I just took pity and didn't list even more evidences Admirals are less ridiculed LOL



Uhh Marco was charging straight past Kizaru's attack, right in front of him. Zoro was in front of Fujitora and they were engaging in battle.

In terms of Aokiji and Akainu, shouldn't they have observation haki at least to the point of being able to address those kind of attacks? Aokiji at least managed to look in the direction from which he was about to get attacked from, Akainu didn't even manage to do that, are we using those two instances to say that Aokiji>Akainu in terms of observation haki?

Or is it just that Oda wanted to move the plot forward and in Aokiji's case he wanted to show that the commanders were a threat and in Croc's case he needed another character to stall Akainu, as well as showing Croc's resolve? If you agree with that, then you have to apply that same kind of logic to instances where the Yonko weren't portrayed the most favorably.

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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 5, 2018)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> idk if those are really 1 to 1 comparisons seeing as those happened pre-skip and under conditions where it’s much easier to throw a top tier between them to save the day. 1. The whole point of the time skip was so they wouldn’t need to be saved. 2. In the case of big mom how does Oda have some top tier show up out of nowhere with how wci was set up?
> I’ll say that thinking there are tiers for each title in the series is silly and that not every admiral has to be below all the yonko. But big mom being weaker than every admiral doesn’t make sense. Why wouldn’t the world gov just take her out? Although it could be for balance maintenance like they were worried about during the reverie.



No need for a top tier to pop up to save the SH's ..... how about simply NOT  putting BM in situations on WCI she had to get humiliated? It's as easy as keeping her away from Nami/Chopper's group on some different island whilst she went on her rampage. The fact that Oda kept constantly deciding to go no, I'll have her chase the SH's only to get humiliated by failing miserably instead of doing anything other than that again speaks volumes about the lack of respect he has for her. No way is he treating most other top tiers like that, especially a Kaido or an Akainu. 


And maybe because it's not as easy as the marines clicking their fingers and having an Admiral square of against an Emperor, in a fair one on one without any interference on some deserted island away from any civilians?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 5, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


>


Coby should be top tier by EoS. 

At this point though when i say eos i mean epilogue. I doubt he will be eos by the final war unless oda throws some big time skips our way. 

Coby considers one leg Kyros strong. Now that doesnt mean kyros>Coby but that doesnt make me confident in cobys current strength.


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## charles101 (Aug 5, 2018)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Coby should be top tier by EoS.
> 
> At this point though when i say eos i mean epilogue. I doubt he will be eos by the final war unless oda throws some big time skips our way.
> 
> Coby considers one leg Kyros strong. Now that doesnt mean kyros>Coby but that doesnt make me confident in cobys current strength.



Imo Coby will eventually eat some broken DF like other Admirals, since unlike Garp he really want to become one and having good DF would be really useful. This should give him huge boost. No idea if he'll make it in time for EoS though.


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## GilDLax (Aug 5, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Uhh Marco was charging straight past Kizaru's attack, right in front of him. Zoro was in front of Fujitora and they were engaging in battle.


...There's a reason I divided your post in quote into 3 paragraphs and replied accordingly with also 3 of mine...




Vivo Diez said:


> In terms of Aokiji and Akainu, shouldn't they have observation haki at least to the point of being able to address those kind of attacks? Aokiji at least managed to look in the direction from which he was about to get attacked from, Akainu didn't even manage to do that, are we using those two instances to say that Aokiji>Akainu in terms of observation haki?


CoO helps you dodge. But not all instance of dodging is due to CoO. Sometimes you just purely react. Unless you mean EastBlueLuffy has CoO and that's how he dodged stuffs back then. 

Possessing CoO is one thing. Actually using it 24/7 is another. Luffy didn't use CoO to discern DD used an Ito clone when Kyros beheaded him. CoO is almost only working when plot/story demands...

Katakuri also said it depends on your mind. Lose focus and CoO is off. Or maybe you can only CoO 1 opponent cause that's the extent of your CoO skill. Just because Admirals are overall top-tiers does not mean every aspect of their fighting is. Kizaru can tell me he doesn't have any CoO aptitude at all and I still rank him super strong already with just his base stats and DF. Another possibility is the opponent in front of them is strong enough to get all of their attention (and WB is surely a strong opponent in anyone's book). Not even Katakuri with advanced CoO showed he could see the future of everything around him. 

So no, you're victim-blaming. Akainu and Aokiji could have shit CoO or whatever and it doesn't matter...That still doesn't change the fact that they are blindsided which wouldn't happen in a true 1vs1...O__O Oda clearly drew Akainu and Aokiji were caught off-guard. Just look at the manga visual cues or ''!''/''?" bubble popping off their head. By your logic then Marco and Jozu are to be blamed for not using CoO to dodge Kizaru and Aokiji. They didn't because for a moment their focus is their pop/nakama.




Vivo Diez said:


> Or is it just that Oda wanted to move the plot forward and in Aokiji's case he wanted to show that the commanders were a threat and in Croc's case he needed another character to stall Akainu, as well as showing Croc's resolve?


Then Croc's panel of being injured by Jozu's Brilliant Punk should have happened to Aokiji to look like a threat. And Oda could have used other low-ranked Commanders from Division 6-16 to attack Croc instead.

So no, it's just plain blindsiding.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> No need for a top tier to pop up to save the SH's ..... how about simply NOT  putting BM in situations on WCI she had to get humiliated? It's as easy as keeping her away from Nami/Chopper's group on some different island whilst she went on her rampage. The fact that Oda kept constantly deciding to go no, I'll have her chase the SH's only to get humiliated by failing miserably instead of doing anything other than that again speaks volumes about the lack of respect he has for her. No way is he treating most other top tiers like that, especially a Kaido or an Akainu.
> 
> 
> And maybe because it's not as easy as the marines clicking their fingers and having an Admiral square of against an Emperor, in a fair one on one without any interference on some deserted island away from any civilians?


Was a bad idea and maybe it is because she's weaker than the every other admiral and yonko, but i expect her to be worlds better when we see her next time(could be wrong of course). Kaido and akainu won't get treated that way for sure I agree. It would be difficult to take her out for sure, but it would be a huge win taking down an emperor. Although yeah I guess the sort of force they would need even if she is as weak as portrayed in this arc would leave then vulnerable to others so not a good idea.


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## MO (Aug 5, 2018)

admirals lose to all the yonkos. Their portrayal is just better,

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Aug 5, 2018)

MO said:


> admirals lose to all the yonkos. Their portrayal is just better,





I wonder how hyped you were when Big Mom actually started to fight, this portrayal and what happened then?


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## MO (Aug 5, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> I wonder how hyped you were when Big Mom actually started to fight, this portrayal and what happened then?


?


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## TheWiggian (Aug 5, 2018)

MO said:


> ?



Thanks for proving my point


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## FakeTaxi1738 (Aug 5, 2018)

at least yonkotards are funny


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## Gohara (Aug 5, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> BM was the only top-tier who is ridiculed by Oda whilst being utterly serious.



Not only is that subjective it doesn't make a lot of sense that Oda intends for it to be taken that way likely suggesting that it isn't meant to be taken that way.

Characters with basically equal or less physical prowess than Jinbe has sent fully healed admirals flying even when they were attempting to defend so why would Oda think it ridicule to have Jinbe send a non-defending nerfed version of a yonkou flying?  Obviously it is unlikely that Oda thinks that's ridicule.  However it is also true that the admirals shouldn't get ridiculed for those feats and they aren't ridiculed for it.  Yonkou > admiral fans use those feats to say things like (insert character) is physically superior however nothing like it makes admirals look silly or that the physically superior character is superior in combined skills.  Those feats also don't make us lessen the overall rankings of admirals because we know that some characters might be physically superior however the admirals are versatile and excel in most aspects.  It's nothing to be embarrassed that gear 3rd Luffy sends Fujitora flying.  It isn't that Fujitora is physically weak.  It is that Luffy is physically strong.

Also saying that the main protagonists successfully ran away isn't an insult because if the main protagonists are running away from a nerfed version of a yonkou to begin with that itself obviously suggests that the yonkou is >>>> the main protagonists.  Luffy escaping characters significantly superior isn't anything strange.  Luffy escapes characters significantly superior a lot including the world government.

As for what the difference is between Luffy vs. Fujitora and Luffy vs. Aokiji it is because Aokiji did not attempt to defend at all against Luffy when Aokiji is sent flying whereas Fujitora attempts to defend against Luffy and is still sent flying.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Gohara (Aug 5, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> As I've implied these guys are a joke who are too ingrained with their belief system to even realise their own hackery. Their artificial tiering is all that matters to them.



You say that however when a yonkou has specific feats you automatically transfer them to admirals on the basis of your preconceived notion that they are around the same rank to begin with.  Like I know that when Kaidou has some other worldly physical strength and/or defensive feats I don't automatically think that Shanks is the incredible hulk.  



Admiral Kizaru said:


> Fujitora gets a dirt mark against Luffy (that disappears next chapter as Dunno points out) and gets pushed back a bit against Zoro_ - "Yeah it proves he's the weakest Admiral and top tier around!!!!!._


_
_
I agree that Fujitora isn't automatically inferior to the other admirals based on that.  However when you have gear 3rd pushing back an admiral and a yonkou shrugging off gear 4th it doesn't make a lot of sense for admiral => yonkou fans to get so defensive when that yonkou is ranked superior in physical strength.  Especially since it isn't even used to ridicule Fujitora or anything like that.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> portrayal in his arc.



You think that the subjective painting of that portrayal that admiral => yonkou fans have been pushing should be a significant influence to non-admiral => yonkou fans and it simply isn't.  Most non-admiral => yonkou fans don't fall for the thinking that Chopper humiliated a yonkou because assuming that y'all are correctly interpreting that feat to begin with we obviously know that the same yonkou is > gear 4th and that pre time skip Luffy does the same thing to a non-nerfed Sengoku.  Most non-admiral => yonkou fans don't fall for the thinking that the main protagonists humiliated a yonkou because of escaping from those characters because the main protagonists have been doing that against a lot of characters including the world government.

Also a question: setting aside both sides of fans' interpretations and rankings do you think that Oda intends for any of those feats to be embarrassing like you think that they are?


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 5, 2018)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> Was a bad idea and maybe it is because she's weaker than the every other admiral and yonko, but i expect her to be worlds better when we see her next time(could be wrong of course). Kaido and akainu won't get treated that way for sure I agree. It would be difficult to take her out for sure, but it would be a huge win taking down an emperor. Although yeah I guess the sort of force they would need even if she is as weak as portrayed in this arc would leave then vulnerable to others so not a good idea.


Its true BM portrayal is really embarrassing, but that doesn't change the fact that she is unharmed she's not the weakest among top tier Oda made her embarrassing by keep chasing the SH's but he also make sure to show us what she's capable. Keep in mind if you do battle thread it's not decided by who have better portrayal. Which of the Admiral you think can harm her body? It's doesn't matter how many times she get hit by the SH Oda also showing us how fckin tank/durable she is and her versatility and as far as we know only Brook can hurt her Homies cause of his DF.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 6, 2018)

Prime WB
Old WB
Kaido
Akainu / BB
Shanks/ Aokiji
BM
Kizaru / Fujitora


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## GilDLax (Aug 6, 2018)

Don King said:


> Which of the Admiral you think can harm her body?


All of them. Well, Ryokugyu has not done anything so he's unknown.

Hyperbole is a thing and what Capone said about her body only applies to the time he was under her. By your logic we can't say WB or Kaidou or Shanks can harm her either because she'd never been shown to be. Then should we say she's the strongest top-tier now because she's so unscratched? Kaidou has even more hype than her in durability and toughness department and yet he was defeated 7 times.


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## Fel1x (Aug 6, 2018)

it’s always nice to see admiral wankers trying hard to make people believe admirals=yonko or even >

you should try harder. use more “it’s not a nerf that made BM look bad”, “Shanks was fodderised by sushi”

Reactions: Like 2


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## GilDLax (Aug 6, 2018)

Everyone can be nerfed. The point is BM is nerfed in the worst way.

And yeah, I'd rather eat sushi than eat Shanks. 

The only thing Yonkou have over Admirals is two of them were crowned the best in their respective categories (WSM, WSC) so as a group, in healthy condition, 4 Emperors probably can beat 4 Admirals. But here we're talking general tier and there's no doubt to me they belong to the same tier. It's like CR7 and Messi are above the rest in football. Who is better is a different topic.

For this thread though, I guess Kaidou's hype would still put him at the top but again, let see for how long. Wano ends and he might become shittier than we think.


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## Fel1x (Aug 6, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Everyone can be nerfed. The point is BM is nerfed in the worst way.
> 
> And yeah, I'd rather eat sushi than eat Shanks.
> 
> ...


well, about BM. Did you see starving Luffy in WCI? He couldn't even move. BM was in that state but managed to wrack some shit. She lost 70% of her weight. Jinbei's strongest attack wouldn't be able to move full weight BM an inch

well, forget about this. The facts are : 1) noone ever damaged her skin. she hasn't got any scars, any burns. And she is from Roger's generation. Even Roger decided not to fight her (more likely he decided not to fight her because he didn't need this fight but even so)
2) As a kid she wiped out a whole Elbaf
3) Kaido is scared to fight her while he wants to make a huge war against Marines


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 6, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> All of them. Well, Ryokugyu has not done anything so he's unknown.


I think so too, but can they really hurt her that easily though? drop a meteor to her she will probably okay with it and put some Haki defense on it she's invincible. She's not WB that even a fodder can make a direct hit and leave an injury.



GilDLax said:


> Hyperbole is a thing and what Capone said about her body only applies to the time he was under her. By your logic we can't say WB or Kaidou or Shanks can harm her either because she'd never been shown to be. Then should we say she's the strongest top-tier now because she's so unscratched? Kaidou has even more hype than her in durability and toughness department and yet he was defeated 7 times.


Hyperbole? didn't Oda literally show it to us ever since she was a child She's not like anyone else Her body is not comparable to any character except maybe Kaido. 

the only one who think it's hyperbole is you.


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## trance (Aug 6, 2018)

Fel1x said:


> Kaido is scared to fight her



scans for this

Reactions: Like 1


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## GilDLax (Aug 6, 2018)

Don King said:


> didn't Oda literally show it to us ever since she was a child She's not like anyone else Her body is not comparable to any character except maybe Kaido.


And that means she's never been hurt because? She only fought fodders or featless characters in her flashback for God's sake. Hajrudin and Gerd were there with her and now they are fodders that G2Luffy can knock out and joined Buggy's mercenary group. Such improvement. Though giants' life-span may have something to do with it but still...Hajrudin is like 25 or something in human terms. The two legendary warriors Broggy and Dorry showed up all the way back in Paradise and we saw their abilities and their bounties were merely 100mil. These giants are just hype. I would buy the hype that Elbaf is the strongest nation but probably only recently or maybe they mean on average because indeed an average giant is way stronger than any average individual of other races.

Like I said, I know she's never been shown to be hurt by attacks when healthy but it would be no limit fallacy if you think she's straight up invincible.

And don't ignore what I said about Kaidou. The guy was defeated 7 times and had a huge scar on his body. 




Don King said:


> the only one who think it's hyperbole is you.


Because you have extensively and accurately researched the opinion of everyone who has read One Piece in full? O_o


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## GilDLax (Aug 7, 2018)

Fel1x said:


> Did you see starving Luffy in WCI? He couldn't even move. BM was in that state


BM was also starving, yeah. But in the same state? How? By ''same'' you mean...?



Fel1x said:


> She lost 70% of her weight.


Said who? Visually, she's clearly not just 30% of when healthy...




Fel1x said:


> Jinbei's strongest attack wouldn't be able to move full weight BM an inch


Fanfiction/headcanon




Fel1x said:


> 1) noone ever damaged her skin. she hasn't got any scars, any burns. And she is from Roger's generation.


On-screen. But off-screen we don't know.

You have seen her naked body to know she has no scar or burn?

She's about 10 years younger than Roger. But I get what you mean.




Fel1x said:


> 2) As a kid she wiped out a whole Elbaf


Pretty sure just a village of them.
And a bunch of featless characters. 



Fel1x said:


> 3) Kaido is scared to fight her while he wants to make a huge war against Marines


Where? He said he would kill her if she comes close.


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## Kurohige (Aug 7, 2018)

Kaido =/> old wb = FA Akainu =/> BlackBeard =/> Aokiji / Shanks =/>Kizaru / Big Mom & Fujitora

By such a small margin that Kaido needs high diff's Fujitora.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> And that means she's never been hurt because? She only fought fodders or featless characters in her flashback for God's sake. Hajrudin and Gerd were there with her and now they are fodders that G2Luffy can knock out and joined Buggy's mercenary group. Such improvement. Though giants' life-span may have something to do with it but still...Hajrudin is like 25 or something in human terms. The two legendary warriors Broggy and Dorry showed up all the way back in Paradise and we saw their abilities and their bounties were merely 100mil. These giants are just hype. I would buy the hype that Elbaf is the strongest nation but probably only recently or maybe they mean on average because indeed an average giant is way stronger than any average individual of other races.
> 
> Like I said, I know she's never been shown to be hurt by attacks when healthy but it would be no limit fallacy if you think she's straight up invincible.


You don't get it I don't care if you think those guys are fodders comeback to me when any of the Admirals can do what she did in the age of 5 or any character in the series. Oda is consistent to show us that she is invincible(her body) except if she is shock like when Mother Caramel picture broke.


GilDLax said:


> And don't ignore what I said about Kaidou. The guy was defeated 7 times and had a huge scar on his body.


what about Kaido? who cares if he is defeated? the Marines and the Yonko captured him then sentence him to die yet he is still alive as for his defeat we don't know who or how he got defeated.


GilDLax said:


> Because you have extensively and accurately researched the opinion of everyone who has read One Piece in full? O_o


only you you're the only one stupid enough to say that word, when I'm talking to BM tough body you proudly claim that's hyperbole talk by Capone which is untrue. Stupid do you even know the meaning of that words?


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## A Optimistic (Aug 7, 2018)

Whitebeard > Akainu = Shanks > Aokiji > Kaidou = Kizaru >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Big Mom

Reactions: Like 1


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## A Optimistic (Aug 7, 2018)

Fel1x said:


> it’s always nice to see admiral wankers trying hard to make people believe admirals=yonko or even >
> 
> you should try harder. use more “it’s not a nerf that made BM look bad”, “Shanks was fodderised by sushi”



Please enlighten us "Admiral wankers" on how Big Mom even scratches Akainu.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 7, 2018)

Let's take a look at Big Mom's feats objectively:

1) Her punch was dodged by her fodder son.

2) Prom was dodged by Base Luffy and Jimbei.

3) Zues wasn't powerful enough to keep fodder like Judge down.

4) Her aim with her sword is extremely bad as we saw when she struck a tree.

So how exactly is she supposed to hit any of the Color Trio when she can't hit characters way weaker than the Color Trio? And even if by some miracle that Big Mom manages to land a blow on any of the Color Trio, how will it stop them? They are confirmed to be able to withstand island splitting punches.

Yonkou fans need to get over their Big Mom fantasies and just accept the truth: that she has _no _ chance against any of the Color Trio.

The only thing impressive about Big Mom is her haki and defence, nothing else. However, the Color Trio already proved they can damage top tiers so I don't see any reason why they can't damage her. Big Mom hasn't proven she can even touch a top tier, the burden of the proof is on you Yonkou fanboys.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 7, 2018)

And before anyone quotes me saying Big Mom would beat a Color Trio Admiral, I want you to say exactly _how_. Will she use her fists? Her sword? Prom? Zues? Soul stealing? 

Because whichever one you pick, I'll just link you to a panel of that failing on someone much weaker than an Admiral.

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## Kylo Ren (Aug 7, 2018)

Avalon said:


> The only thing impressive about Big Mom is her haki and defence, nothing else. However, the Color Trio already proved they can damage top tiers so I don't see any reason why they can't damage her. Big Mom hasn't proven she can even touch a top tier, the burden of the proof is on you Yonkou fanboys.


even fodder proved they can hurt WB how come you compare BM defense to WB? because if your reason is if they can hurt WB they can do it to BM too well your wrong and give her the same opportunity Akainu have she can do the same thing. can the Admirals hurt Big Mom? She have impenetrable skin and have Haki to add to her defense. this is not an old man who's dying while fighting. If BM can't touch Admirals then the Admirals can't touch BM too.


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## GilDLax (Aug 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> when any of the Admirals can do what she did in the age of 5 or any character in the series.


That's important how? There are a lot of prodigies but only a few would truly become special in the long-term. You know the difference between prodigy and genius, right? Now, BM IS still special, no doubt, but you're saying she's the most or second most (after Kaidou) special, aka the invincible and you need proof. 
Yes, she could do certain things at 5, so? We're talking about the whole process since then to now. Now any Admirals can probably do the same shit cause as I have reasoned, those giants aren't that great besides empty hype so far. It's like having a lead in a marathon for the first 500m of the distance doesn't mean you're guaranteed to end up being 1st in that race or consistently being 1st through out the course.

And your ''I don't care'' is a typical childish argument to doge the responsibility to provide evidence. Anyone can block their ears and say I don't care like a kid. Doesn't change the reality which is you have not given any evidence though.




Don King said:


> what about Kaido? who cares if he is defeated? the Marines and the Yonko captured him then sentence him to die yet he is still alive as for his defeat we don't know who or how he got defeated.


Logic cares. And nice job purposely ignoring the fact that Kaidou has a fucking big scar. LOL

Yes, we don't know. Precisely because we don't know for sure that he wasn't defeated by being hurt that it's still a possibility and if Kaidou is susceptible to doubt then so is BM. 

Look, you're the one committing no limit fallacy, not me. And if you insist on it not being a fallacy and you have proof BM has never been hurt then show it. The burden of proof is on you! Stop talking about her being monster at 5 cause it says literally nothing about her achievement since then to now. 

And funny how it's you who said also believe Admirals can hurt BM and that battle thread does not rely solely on portrayal. Maybe heed your own advice?




Don King said:


> only you you're the only one stupid enough to say that word, when I'm talking to BM tough body you proudly claim that's hyperbole talk by Capone which is untrue. Stupid do you even know the meaning of that words?


I'm not sure how a mere line like ''Hyperbole is a thing'' can help you know I said it _proudly_ as if you can see me face-to-face to see the manner in which I spoke...If you aren't secretly a superpowered individual or secretly have camera on me then please stop the accusation! At this point you are just doing ad hominem-ish conversation.
And then being wrong about something is not necessarily being stupid. But well, it's expected of an ad hominem-er.

Second, you're still *not* providing evidence that you have known literally everyone's opinion to say I'm the only one who thinks it can be a hyperbole. What a great example of debaters who can only brag. Never a shred of proof.

Third, you have been saying it untrue a lot but still no evidence. Actual evidence, not unrelated feats. Goodness, give me evidence!!! Stop talking crap!


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 8, 2018)

No admiral can beat a Yonkou. It's an entirely different level. They fought a stabilised WSM for territory, while the strongest admiral got two shot by an incredibly nerfed WB. If Akainu fought stabilised WB for instance, he would have got two shot without WB getting a mark on him as he would dodge the meigo with CoO or tank it with CoA.

When Shanks came all the ''yonkou-level admirals'' backed down. Why? Because they could tell he wasn't a Yonkou off his life support

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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> even fodder proved they can hurt WB how come you compare BM defense to WB? because if your reason is if they can hurt WB they can do it to BM too well your wrong and give her the same opportunity Akainu have she can do the same thing. can the Admirals hurt Big Mom? She have impenetrable skin and have Haki to add to her defense. this is not an old man who's dying while fighting. If BM can't touch Admirals then the Admirals can't touch BM too.



We know Akainu took off half of Whitebeard's face, but if you want to argue that fodder injured Whitebeard and that he was sick, then sure.

What excuse do you have for Akainu blowing up Aokiji's leg? Aokiji wasn't sick and I don't recall fodder ever injuring.

Now what's your reason for thinking Akainu can't hurt Big Mom?


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> We know Akainu took off half of Whitebeard's face, but if you want to argue that fodder injured Whitebeard and that he was sick, then sure.
> 
> What excuse do you have for Akainu blowing up Aokiji's leg? Aokiji wasn't sick and I don't recall fodder ever injuring.
> 
> Now what's your reason for thinking Akainu can't hurt Big Mom?


Big Mom have Iron Body, she's not like any human being.


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> We know Akainu took off half of Whitebeard's face, but if you want to argue that fodder injured Whitebeard and that he was sick, then sure.
> 
> What excuse do you have for Akainu blowing up Aokiji's leg? Aokiji wasn't sick and I don't recall fodder ever injuring.


You're judging whether admirals can damage BM no? So what do these non-BM characters (WB and Aokiji) have to do with it?



Avalon said:


> Now what's your reason for thinking Akainu can't hurt Big Mom?


BM casually tanked a full blast from Zeus. Lighting has a temperature of around 50 000 degrees Fahrenheit. Magma is only about 1500 
She tanked it without CoA btw.

Hell she can just make a homie out of his magma and have it eat any attack he throws. Then what? a fist fight? When Fuji who would take him to extreme diff was launched by no name zoro and luffy moves, while she casually blocked a Kong gun?

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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Don King said:


> Big Mom have Iron Body, she's not like any human being.



She has an iron body according to weaker people. Kizaru wasn't worried about her iron body when he wanted to go confront her and Kaidou.


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> She has an iron body according to weaker people. Kizaru wasn't worried about her iron body when he wanted to go confront her and Kaidou.



Kizaru thought he could one shot WB. Then Marco took him on a sightseeing visit of MF.

Kizaru thought he could stroll past Rayleigh then ended up bleeding.

What makes you think that retard can accurately assess what he can do when it comes to other top tiers?

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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> You're judging whether admirals can damage BM no? So what do these non-BM characters (WB and Aokiji) have to do with it?
> 
> 
> BM casually tanked a full blast from Zeus. Lighting has a temperature of around 50 000 degrees Fahrenheit. Magma is only about 1500
> ...



1) That Akainu has proven he can hurt top tiers. Has Big Mom blocked a top tiers attack on panel?



2) 50,000 degrees and wasn't strong enough to keep Judge down, Zeus sure is scary.



3) What does Fuji have to do with the Colored Trio? 

4) All her homies have been failures.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Seraphoenix said:


> Kizaru thought he could one shot WB. Then Marco took him on a sightseeing visit of MF.
> 
> Kizaru thought he could stroll past Rayleigh then ended up bleeding.
> 
> What makes you think that retard can accurately assess what he can do when it comes to other top tiers?



Shanks thougut he could take on a sea king without getting hurt. Whitebeard thought he could rescue Ace from Marineford. Big Mom thought she could avoid catching an L from a rookie pirate. 

That Yonkou IQ.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 8, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> That's important how? There are a lot of prodigies but only a few would truly become special in the long-term. You know the difference between prodigy and genius, right? Now, BM IS still special, no doubt, but you're saying she's the most or second most (after Kaidou) special, aka the invincible and you need proof.
> Yes, she could do certain things at 5, so? We're talking about the whole process since then to now. Now any Admirals can probably do the same shit cause as I have reasoned, those giants aren't that great besides empty hype so far. It's like having a lead in a marathon for the first 500m of the distance doesn't mean you're guaranteed to end up being 1st in that race or consistently being 1st through out the course.
> 
> And your ''I don't care'' is a typical childish argument to doge the responsibility to provide evidence. Anyone can block their ears and say I don't care like a kid. Doesn't change the reality which is you have not given any evidence though.


We're talking about Big mom's body right? her body not her achievement her body alone. but forgive me I didn't clarify my word when I said look at her in Elbaf when she was 5 I'm talking about her invincible body that at the age of 5 her body is not normal it literally an Iron Body.


GilDLax said:


> Logic cares. And nice job purposely ignoring the fact that Kaidou has a fucking big scar. LOL
> 
> Yes, we don't know. Precisely because we don't know for sure that he wasn't defeated by being hurt that it's still a possibility and if Kaidou is susceptible to doubt then so is BM.
> 
> ...


Did Kaido have the same type of body like BM does? he's not. he only can't be killed. that's why I'm ignoring Kaido because were talking Big Mom here and that's why I said maybe Kaido have the same body as her but we don't know that yet on my earlier comment.


GilDLax said:


> I'm not sure how a mere line like ''Hyperbole is a thing'' can help you know I said it _proudly_ as if you can see me face-to-face to see the manner in which I spoke...If you aren't secretly a superpowered individual or secretly have camera on me then please stop the accusation! At this point you are just doing ad hominem-ish conversation.
> And then being wrong about something is not necessarily being stupid. But well, it's expected of an ad hominem-er.
> 
> Second, you're still *not* providing evidence that you have known literally everyone's opinion to say I'm the only one who thinks it can be a hyperbole. What a great example of debaters who can only brag. Never a shred of proof.
> ...


the reason I don't give you evidence or proof is because you're the only one I saw saying shit like that. I thought you knew that throughout the whole WCI arc BM didn't get injured and it's true WTF man you said to me that Capone comment about BM being iron body is hyperbole which stupid to say because she have literally have iron body.

I expect this to you the one who keep using a sea king just to downplay Shanks.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Nothing to say Sera?


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> She has an iron body according to weaker people. Kizaru wasn't worried about her iron body when he wanted to go confront her and Kaidou.


If he come alone he's good as dead.


Nice ava and sig set btw... so creepy yet charming.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Sera more frozen then when Aokiji turned Jozu into an icecube.


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> 1) That Akainu has proven he can hurt top tiers. Has Big Mom blocked a top tiers attack on panel?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. She blocked Kong Gun. If you think that's not a top tier attack then show me a punch that is comparable. You would have to go to island splitters to find something stronger 

2. Judge has amazing tanking I agreeKappa

3.Fuji is part of the colored trio now. His color is purple. Did you miss the chapters? 
Besides we are talking about admirals hurting BM. Is Fujitora an admiral? You would also have no proof that he is in any way weaker than the pre-skip color trio.



Avalon said:


> Shanks thougut he could take on a sea king without getting hurt. Whitebeard thought he could rescue Ace from Marineford. Big Mom thought she could avoid catching an L from a rookie pirate.
> 
> That Yonkou IQ.


Those things have nothing to do with their assessment of something they can do to top tiers being proven wrong. Shanks didn't even say he would beat the fish. It was never in the original story for him to lose his arm but his editor made him do it to spice things up. He literally lost it to a plot fish. The relevant conclusion you should get here is that if it was an admiral against that plotfish they would have lost both arms

Ace was rescued until that idiot decided to suicide.

BM could have killed Luffy multiple times like when he was imprisoned in that book. She lost to plot.



Avalon said:


> Nothing to say Sera?


 Why are you in a hurry to get schooled like Tom got schooled by an out of prime Dumbledore?


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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

Oh look who finally returned to the thread, thought you got lost like Zoro.


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## A Optimistic (Aug 8, 2018)

4:30 am, rebuttal coming as soon as I wake up. Goodnight.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> And before anyone quotes me saying Big Mom would beat a Color Trio Admiral, I want you to say exactly _how_. Will she use her fists? Her sword? Prom? Zues? Soul stealing?
> 
> Because whichever one you pick, I'll just link you to a panel of that failing on someone much weaker than an Admiral.



Yeah because Big Mom totally went all out. Not to mention that admiral attacks have totally never failed.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 8, 2018)

Luffy avoided a bunch of top tier attacks in Marineford while he was running because the plot required it.

Strawhats avoided a bunch of Big Mum attacks while they were running because the plot required it.

When Big Mum was of mind in an actual fight where nobody was running away, she casually blocked Luffy's G4 attack. I'd reserve judgement until we get more encounters like that.

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## Gohara (Aug 8, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Her punch was dodged by her fodder son.
> 
> Prom was dodged by Base Luffy and Jimbei.



Luffy dodges techniques from Mihawk.



Avalon said:


> Zues wasn't powerful enough to keep fodder like Judge down.



Fodder is subjective and we have no idea where that technique ranks in all of the techniques in Big Mam's arsenal.



Avalon said:


> They are confirmed to be able to withstand island splitting punches.



The feats of John Giant vs. Whitebeard and Big Mam vs. Yorle suggests that Big Mam has superior firepower to Whitebeard because Big Mam without a devil fruit and haki can accomplish feats that Whitebeard with haki and a devil fruit can't.  For that to not be relevant John Giant would have to be like 17 times superior to Yorle which would suggest that characters lied about Elbaf being the most powerful island in that series and/or that characters lied about Yorle being legendary on Elbaf.  

Also Whitebeard's techniques can significantly wound Akainu who is the most impressive defensive admiral.



Avalon said:


> the Color Trio proved



Not all characters of that ranking have the same defense.  Some yonkou characters have more impressive defensive portrayal than other yonkou characters.  That is also a nerfed version of Whitebeard.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 11, 2018)

Who gives a shit if Meme had iron body in age 5 or not? Why does it matter?

I am fairly confident neither Roger or WB had body like that. Or Garp, Rayleigh for that matter. Same goes for Kaido & Akainu. And these guys would beat Meme with no more than high difficulty.


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## MO (Aug 11, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> I am fairly confident neither Roger or WB had body like that. Or Garp, Rayleigh for that matter. Same goes for Kaido & Akainu. *And these guys would beat Meme with no more than high difficulty*.



/tier specialist


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## Quipchaque (Aug 11, 2018)

Avalon said:


> Let's take a look at Big Mom's feats objectively:
> 
> 1) Her punch was dodged by her fodder son.
> 
> ...



Not this powerscaling and feat transfer shit again... Akainu and Aokiji are tanks yes. However you have no evidence at all to suggest that Kizaru, Fujitora or Green Bull can tank the same way as you suggest above.


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## GilDLax (Aug 13, 2018)

Entirely different level? That's why Marines HQ + SHichibukai balance Yonkou? 

Inb4 ''Yonkou hold each other back'' LOL, that means there's no need for Marines HQ and Shichibukai in the equation at all because Yonkou solve it themselves which is not what Garp said.

Also inb4 ''Gorosei were scared Shanks meets WB'' and now BM meets Kaidou. Well, it's not scared per se. Of course nobody would want problem. Ever heard of being healthy and preventing sickness is better than getting sick and then curing it? I'd pick the former. 100% better to never contract any disease in the first place. Of course Marines would want to wet the match before any fire is lit.

And there's no way for Marines HQ and Shichibukai to balance Yonkou if Admirals are decidedly weaker than Emperors.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 13, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Entirely different level? That's why Marines HQ + SHichibukai balance Yonkou?
> 
> Inb4 ''Yonkou hold each other back'' LOL, that means there's no need for Marines HQ and Shichibukai in the equation at all because Yonkou solve it themselves which is not what Garp said.


A single highly ill yonko with his allies fought nearly on par with the mightiest of the marine forces and a good bunch of the shichibukai. If you think that the marines+shichibukai are comparable to the combined military power of the yonko then you are out of your mind.

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## Gledania (Aug 13, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> A single highly ill yonko with his allies fought nearly on par with the mightiest of the marine forces and a good bunch of the shichibukai. If you think that the marines+shichibukai are comparable to the combined military power of the yonko then you are out of your mind.




I allways see it this way : One yonko will loose (badly)
2 Yonko will loose , but give many casualties (one admiral may die).
3 Yonko it could go either way Extrem diff. The winner will suffer many loss. Of course the marines will need help from the WG.
4 Yonko will win it. 

I see it this way : The whole shishibukai + their crew/Allies = One yonko
MF > or =  2 yonko

In term of military power (Provided by the WG , allies , the scientific section and pacifista) the marines are way above the yonkos.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 13, 2018)

Gledania said:


> I allways see it this way : One yonko will loose (badly)
> 2 Yonko will loose , but give many casualties (one admiral may die).
> 3 Yonko it could go either way Extrem diff. The winner will suffer many loss. Of course the marines will need help from the WG.
> 4 Yonko will win it.
> ...



That's just wrong. We saw them stop the Marineford war right when Shanks arrived _just with his core crew_. All of the most powerful admirals/vice admirals were still in fighting shape at that point.

It doesn't even take an alliance of two yonko, it took just one yonko appearing right after a battle with another to stop the marines and their allied forces dead in their tracks.

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## Gledania (Aug 13, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> That's just wrong. We saw them stop the Marineford war right when Shanks arrived _just with his core crew_. All of the most powerful admirals/vice admirals were still in fighting shape at that point.
> 
> It doesn't even take an alliance of two yonko, it took just one yonko appearing right after a battle with another to stop the marines and their allied forces dead in their tracks.



-They were facing Blackbeard crew + Whitebeard crew + Impeldown prisoniers + 2 shishibukai at this time. The other shishibukai weren't helped by their crew and they were 5 not 7.
-Their *WHOLE *military strength , ships , ect weren't there. They are scattered around the world. If they want to face 3 or 4 Yonko in the same time , they will not face them in one Island. Facing one admiral in an open field (like punk hasard) is more dangerous then fighting him on Marine ford. At marine ford an admiral will not use all his strenght (cause allies). At punk hasard he will. Why do you think Blackbeard fled when he saw aka inu in the NW ?
-They didn't stop the war *only *because shanks was there. Sengoku didn't want more useless losses, and is not bloodthirsty like aka inu. Also they didn't want marine ford to be detroyed (the center of the world , remember ?) Most of the Shishi , VA , Admirals , and high tiers soldier of the marine were fine. Whitebeard crew lost badly. One of the VA was even ready to confront Shanks in orther to keep the corpses of Ace.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 13, 2018)

Gledania said:


> -They were facing Blackbeard crew + Whitebeard crew + Impeldown prisoniers + 2 shishibukai at this time. The other shishibukai weren't helped by their crew and they were 5 not 7.


You seem to forget that the BB crew did way more damage to the Yonko than to the marines, by, you know, actually killing the Yonko? All they did against the marines was just stalling Sengoku who wasn't even participating in battle previously...

And the shichibukai they had on their side combined would beat the shit out of the shichibukai that weren't on their side many times over. Hell, Doflamingo and Mihawk combined could compensate for the rest outside of BB.


Gledania said:


> -Their *WHOLE *military strength , ships , ect weren't there. They are scattered around the world.


I never said it was their whole military strength, I said it was the mightiest of the marines. Who cares about fodder that would have been just taking out by the after effects of the Gura Gura no mi, when all of their *top tiers* were there? All of the admirals, most of the vice-admirals as far as we know, the strong captains and commodores that we were introduced to before were also there.


Gledania said:


> -They didn't stop the war *only *because shanks was there. Sengoku didn't want more useless losses, and is not bloodthirsty like aka inu. Also they didn't want marine ford to be detroyed (the center of the world , remember ?) Most of the Shishi , VA , Admirals , and high tiers soldier of the marine were fine. Whitebeard crew lost badly. One of the VA was even ready to confront Shanks in orther to keep the corpses of Ace.


You're agreeing with me, so many of the marine top tiers were fine, yet they still realized they couldn't just crush the Red Hair Pirates without enormous consequences. They had three admirals still capable of fighting, Garp, Sengoku, most of the vice admirals etc.

Shanks was confident enough in his crew's strength that he could diffuse the rest of the top tier marines and the BB pirates. And obviously he couldn't guarantee that they would stand down, so he also must have been confident that him and his crew could stand their ground in that situation.

Even besides all of that, you don't have to look further than the World Government shitting their pants at the mere thought of a WB and RH pirate alliance.

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## GilDLax (Aug 13, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> A single highly ill yonko with his allies fought nearly on par with the mightiest of the marine forces and a good bunch of the shichibukai. If you think that the marines+shichibukai are comparable to the combined military power of the yonko then you are out of your mind.



*1. *I don't just think. I read the manga and see that what is shown is consistent with what is told. Tell your idea to Oda and Garp and anyone talking about balance of power. I trust canon more than your interpretation until you make them change their words.


*2.* Highly ill is irrelevant cause WB was introduced as WSM and Emperor when he was already ill with life support. So that ill version of himself is Emperor level. When will people understand this? It's the same as Ukitake in Bleach. The guy has been sick since birth. It's that weak body of him (with a bit help from Soul King's arm) that became Soul Society Captain level. There has never been healthy Captain level Ukitake to speak of. For the last time, ill WB was Emperor level and WSM so he was stronger than Shanks and BM. 

The databook calls the WB pirates the strongest crew. Kaidou challenged WB before they went to MF. Sengoku kept saying WB was WSM in the War. Get the hints! The logic ''he was ill so he must not be Emperor level at the time'' is illogical. Just because he was sick doesn't mean shit. Precisely because in his prime he was too freakishly strong that even after weakening so much he was still Emperor.


*3. *Nearly on par? Now you're out of your mind. 
Marco got cuffed and laser'ed, Jozu lost an arm and was technically dying inside the frozen ice, WB lost half a face and actually died. Ace died, too.
Meanwhile, Kizaru and Aokiji were perfectly fine. Garp and Sengoku barely had to fight. Akainu was the only one injured but not significant anw cause he could still fight pretty well later, chasing Luffy and all. 

So how the fuck was it on par when one side failed their goal and their top 3 fighters were either dead or in critical condition when the other side...well, all their top fighters look like they could still go to gym later and work out hard? Marines won that war by a landslide.


*4. *Shichibukai? You mean Jinbe, Crocodile and Hancock who betrayed Marines (Hancock even destroyed the Pacifista); Kuma who was brain-dead and stopped using his devil fruit plus Mihawk and DD who were not even serious and probably fought with...I don't know, not even a third of their true strength? Moria was the only one fighting well there and it was not like he was particularly shown to be serious either.


*5.* And remember, the only reason Ace was rescued in the first place and Sengoku had to fight is thanks to Luffy and Mr.3. Had it not been for Luffy, Garp would not let go and had it not been for Mr.3, Ace would still be cuffed. And Luffy made it there thanks to Iva and Jinbe and Crocodile and Hancock gave him the key (which was useless anw but still). And none of those guys are WB pirates.
Also the only reason Sengoku had to fight seriously is BB and his crew who were supposed to help Marines as Shichibukai.


So no, it's not WB pirates on par with Marines + Shichibukai. 
It's WB pirates + Impel Down prisoners + Luffy + Mr.3 + Jinbe, Ivankov and Crocodile + Hancock's destroying Pacifista lost by a landslide to Marines + 4 Shichibukai who were barely fighting at half strength along with Kizaru and Aokiji who were never pushed or injured much.
The only reason that would be a close War is the BB pirates at the end who were just starting to fight Garp and Sengoku. But frankly, all it needed is Kizaru and Aokiji starting to fight seriously cause they were utterly unharmed after the War. They didn't work hard at all.

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## Vivo Diez (Aug 13, 2018)

1. And it was shown that just a possible alliance between two yonko was making the world government shit their pants. So how you can equate the 4 yonko as a combined force equal to marines is beyond me. It's true that Garp said that the marines+shichibukai and the yonko keep the balance, but that doesn't necessarily equate the two as equal in power at all.
2. Dude got literally stabbed by a crewmate at the start of the war and Marco specifically noticed that his sense/haki has even more deteriorated, and we see constant reminders that he keeps deteriorating heavily throughout the war.
3. It's funny how most of those were against distracted WB members that happened as a chain of events from the WB vs Akainu fight, none of them were from direct fighting.
4. Uhh Kuma was using his devil fruit, DD actually managed to immobilize one of the strongest WB commanders and Mihawk was always keeping some of WB's strongest allies busy.
5. The WB pirates had Luffy and his crew, but the marines had BB and his newly recruited crew. Ultimately Luffy's crew just managed to delay Ace's execution, while BB's crew finished off WB.

Also, if you're going to be petty and start counting impel down prisoner fodder, Garp was never supposed to interfere, but he did, should I start counting Marines + Garp + BB whole crew + Mihawk + DD + Kuma + Moriah + the spider tattoo insider that stabbed WB ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Aug 13, 2018)

Temporary nerfedness isn't likely included in Whitebeard's title.  It wouldn't make a lot of sense to exclude a title because of temporary nerfedness and the world government was too busy being in that war to even influence that.  Albert Pujols at some points is referred to as the best pure batter in baseball however while injured that title isn't taken away and yet in a contest of batting a lot of players are going to win that match up while Albert Pujols is injured.  It also doesn't make a lot of sense for Whitebeard to be that much superior to the other yonkou with a superior yonkou crew and yet be tied with the other yonkou in influence and conquering.


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## GilDLax (Aug 14, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> 1. And it was shown that just a possible alliance between two yonko was making the world government shit their pants


Funny enough, I already addressed this in my very first post that you replied to but you didn't quote it. 


GilDLax said:


> Also inb4 ''Gorosei were scared Shanks meets WB'' and now BM meets Kaidou. Well, it's not scared per se. Of course nobody would want problem. Ever heard of being healthy and preventing sickness is better than getting sick and then curing it? I'd pick the former. 100% better to never contract any disease in the first place. Of course Marines would want to wet the match before any fire is lit.


Hope this time you won't forget it.




Vivo Diez said:


> 2. Dude got literally stabbed by a crewmate at the start of the war and Marco specifically noticed that his sense/haki has even more deteriorated, and we see constant reminders that he keeps deteriorating heavily throughout the war.


Again, this doesn't refute me. You don't need to tell me all of that cause I said extremely clear that I never denied he got weaker. Much weaker. I said even in that weakened state he was still Emperor level because of the reasons I gave. Now you should actually discuss how my stance is wrong or less possible than yours, not repeating your stance like a broken record.




Vivo Diez said:


> 3. It's funny how most of those were against distracted WB members that happened as a chain of events from the WB vs Akainu fight, none of them were from direct fighting.


Why does that matter? It's a War, *not a tournament of fair fight*. Rules are not applied whatsoever. Squardo's stabbing WB is credit to Marines's plan. And that triggered the chain reaction, yeah. All Marines's credit.

*Not to mention Oda, as the author, as the omnipotent voice, has demonstrated through WCI arc that there's no such thing as fair fight for pirates. Nami told Cracker to fuck off cause they are pirates and she can help Luffy. Luffy told Katakuri it was entirely his fault he didn't notice Flambe's sneaky attack. All canon, btw. So tell me why should veterans in New World like Marco and Jozu, and not just any veteran but some of the most famous, be treated differently from a rookie like Luffy?*

*I know you might say ''but if it's not a fair fight then that's not true power level''. Not really, because both sides did ''non-fair'' fighting. Did Jozu not blindside Aokiji when Aokiji fought WB? Did Marco not blindiside Aokiji when Aokiji was about to stab Luffy with his ice blade? Did Marco and Vista not attack Akainu by surprise and got no-sold? Did WB not blindside Akainu and then got half his face destroyed?*

So LOL no, the context is pretty clear: pirates fight like that and Marines answer accordingly. It's all fair, actually. And Marines stomped WB side.




Vivo Diez said:


> 4. Uhh Kuma was using his devil fruit, DD actually managed to immobilize one of the strongest WB commanders and Mihawk was always keeping some of WB's strongest allies busy.


Yeah, vs Oars and one okama fodder. Then? That's why I said ''stopped using''.

You mean Buffalo Atmos the 13 Division Commander? Given the number of his Division he's probably as strong as Opera or Mont D'or or something LOL. Now if the number of Division doesn't mean strength then his power is unknown but nothing special either given how he didn't make noise in the War. Plus DD immobilized him for how long? We don't know. We do know when WB started fighting Atmos was by his side along with the WB pirates. So much for immobilize...Had DD outright killed him or tied him and rendered him useless for the rest of the War you may have a point.

Mihawk fought who? Vista for few minutes then parted ways? Crocodile who, again, was not WB pirates? Or a bunch of guys we don't know names?

And even so you, again, didn't really refute me. None of that proves they were fighting at their best. Far from it. So imagine if they were.




Vivo Diez said:


> 5. The WB pirates had Luffy and his crew, but the marines had BB and his newly recruited crew. Ultimately Luffy's crew just managed to delay Ace's execution, while BB's crew finished off WB.


First of all, BB only showed up near the end. Luffy and co showed up early and influenced the War for way longer period. When BB was there Ace was already dead. Marines already won their main objective. You're grasping at straw really, struggling to make it sound like fair fight but LOL no.

Second, BB gang literally only did the final touch (that panel where they attacked WB at once) and even then they didn't use their named technique or something. Those guys shot guns for fuck's sake which is something Marines soldiers could do as shown in the War before LOL. WB were already extremely injured before. If BB had not been there, Akainu and Marines soldiers would just keep magma punching and shooting him. Or maybe Kizaru would donate a few lasers which is surely better than bullets. WB was gonna die anw. And Akainu was the one took half his face/brain. It was Akainu who dealt the fatal blow.

Third, BB then fought Garp and Sengoku LOL. So much for ''Marines had him''. If he actually did his job as a Shichibukai, he should go fight WB pirates and allies. Then Garp+Sengoku+BB would destroy Marco and co LOL




Vivo Diez said:


> Also, if you're going to be petty and start counting impel down prisoner fodder, Garp was never supposed to interfere, but he did, should I start counting Marines + Garp + BB whole crew + Mihawk + DD + Kuma + Moriah + the spider tattoo insider that stabbed WB ?


GARP *IS* MARINES. OF COURSE HE COUNTS . 
HOW THE FUCK IS THAT THE SAME AS LUFFY + IMPEL DOWN PRISONERS + IVANKOV + CROCODILE + HANCOCK'S BETRAYAL ETC. ? THEY WERE NEVER PART OF WB'S PIRATES OR ALLIES TO BEGIN WITH...

Now who is being petty? Or are you playing devil's advocate? Cause that's one hell of asinine logic. Garp was not supposed to rescue Ace. He was not supposed to interfere *early. *But when WB started to fight, Sengoku told him to fight anw. That means they were still there to do their job as Marines officers. It was just that Marines were so overwhelmingly superior (had it not been for those added factors like Luffy and co) that they didn't have to do shit except for one punch to Marco's face. But then Luffy showed up with plot-armor and main character's privileges and then BB crews' betrayal and that was why Garp and Sengoku had a good time. WB side, by themselves, never even managed to make the top 2 Marines fight seriously.


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## Ekkologix (Aug 14, 2018)

love how admiral vs yonkou threads always go past 5 pages atleast when none of the admirals or yonkous even showed their full power other than the good ol WB and akainu from preskip

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Aug 14, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Entirely different level? That's why Marines HQ + SHichibukai balance Yonkou?
> 
> Inb4 ''Yonkou hold each other back'' LOL, that means there's no need for Marines HQ and Shichibukai in the equation at all because Yonkou solve it themselves which is not what Garp said.
> 
> ...



The marines and shichibukai do indeed balance out the yonko. However not the yonko as a whole. That doesn't even make sense cause there is no scenario in which the 4 yonko would ever decide "hey let's gang up and destroy those pesky government dogs and marines!" Also there is no reason at all why MHQ would hesitate to attack a yonko crew and completely annihilate them if they could pit a power equivalent to 4 yonko at once against them. Instead we see things like the Gorosei and Marines flipping their tables if just 2 yonko meet each other. The story just doesn't imply what you say here.

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## GilDLax (Aug 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That doesn't even make sense cause there is no scenario in which the 4 yonko would ever decide "hey let's gang up and destroy those pesky government dogs and marines!"


Nothing like that so far but doesn't mean impossible. Shanks went to meet WB didn't he? That's why Marines recruit Shichibukai to begin with...in case shit happens and they have to fight Yonkou. They didn't wait till Shanks started going to WB to recruit Shichibukai...What kind of government stop amassing power just because they think the criminals would stay silent? What kind of government operate on such uncertain terms? You're thinking backwards there.

Like I said, if you go with the logic ''Yonkou hold back each other'' then they themselves are enough to keep balance. There's no need to say Marines HQ + Shichibukai balance them at all.




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also there is no reason at all why MHQ would hesitate to attack a yonko crew and completely annihilate them if they could pit a power equivalent to 4 yonko at once against them.


Politics is a thing. Yes, Marines+Shichibukai would obliterate 1 Yonkou. But that fight would not happen cause no one wants to break the balance. If Marines annihilate Yonkou then they don't need Shichibukai anymore and Shichibukai wouldn't want that. So Shichibukai wouldn't help. As for Yonkou, they would udnerstand that if Marines actively destroy 1 Emperor, then there will be next and next and then all 4 will be destroyed and so without cooperation they would unanimously decide to fight Marines anw. And in turn Shichibukai would end up helping Marines because without Marines they would have to bow to Yonkou and they also don't want that. And then it would turn into world war before you know it.

Balance means they are about equal, not one side dominates the other. So even if Marines HQ + Shichibukai ~ Yonkou, Marines wouldn't want to start a fight because that would let to the scenario I just described above and even if they win Marines would suffer terribly anw. I mean if I tell you you can beat that guy but lose 2 hands 2 legs in exchange would you do it? Most people would not and just live peacefully.

The reason Marines executed Ace and be enemy of WB is the prospect of another PK is a bigger threat than any Yonkou and they cannot ignore it. And then they didn't really actively say they want to kill WB. WB went there himself and got killed. The other Yonkou wouldn't feel threatened as if Marines were really trying to hunt them down. With 3 Emperors remaining they can still maintain balance somewhat and it's not like WB pirates were completely obliterated.

Not to mention how do you know the Gorosei didn't want Yonkou to exist? They keep wanting to maintain balance. 




DiscoZoro20 said:


> Instead we see things like the Gorosei and Marines flipping their tables if just 2 yonko meet each other.


Already addressed in that post you quoted. Maybe read it?!


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## Gledania (Aug 14, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> And it was shown that just a possible alliance between two yonko was making the world government shit their pants. So how you can equate the 4 yonko as a combined force equal to marines is beyond me. It's true that Garp said that the marines+shichibukai and the yonko keep the balance, but that doesn't necessarily equate the two as equal in power at all.




I partialy agree. 4 emprror alliance is above MF and Shishibukai.
But no way 2 will beat the WG. Even 3 may still lose.
They shit "their pants" the same way they would for facing Ray and whitebeard (two legend) on the same time for one simple reason : Casualty. Garp never said they will lose. It may be a way for him to tell that it will cost them a lot. The simple fact of losing a pacifista made sentomaru angry and commenting about how expencive a pacifista worth.

Remember Kizaru was ready  to go to stop Big mum and kaido.



Vivo Diez said:


> You seem to forget that the BB crew did way more damage to the Yonko than to the marines, by, you know, actually killing the Yonko? All they did against the marines was just stalling Sengoku who wasn't even participating in battle previously...



Black beard had 2 devil fruit and one of them was strong enough to destroy many ships and left the entire Island. The Gura gura is the strongest paramecia , it could sink marine ford. That's why it was dangerous.



Vivo Diez said:


> I never said it was their whole military strength, I said it was the mightiest of the marines. Who cares about fodder that would have been just taking out by the after effects of the Gura Gura no mi, when all of their *top tiers* were there?



Fodders do play a role. "_Who cares about  the yonko crew size when Aka inu can burn them from far with his magma punch and Ao kiji turn them into ice ?_"


The point is , they will weaken the opponent , slow him , and maybe give him casualty , ect. WB using the gura is an exeption. What is BM going to do if 10 dreadnought start shooting on her boat to sink her  ???



Vivo Diez said:


> Shanks was confident enough in his crew's strength that he could diffuse the rest of the top tier marines and the BB pirates. And obviously he couldn't guarantee that they would stand down, so he also must have been confident that him and his crew could stand their ground in that situation.



Shanks knew he wasn't going to face the *whole marine army *nor the whole marine potential (the WG can stile provide them with more , fuji and green bull weren't there for exemple) Only high and top tier. But then again, Kizaru was enough confident to *stop* Kaido and BM. Shiki was confident to face MF alone. You may argue Shiki is stupid (wich is the case) while shanks not. But he knews that along side the WB crew he could do enough casualty to them, to make think twice before facing him. His goal was to *stop* them not to fight them.




Vivo Diez said:


> Dude got literally stabbed by a crewmate at the start of the war and Marco specifically noticed that his sense/haki has even more deteriorated



WB main dangerous weapon/strenght was his devil fruit , he could turn MF into dust.




Admiral Kizaru said:


> But apparently saying that she's equal to Fujitora is so insulting for people like @Gledania , @charles101 and the like when in reality it's given her the benefit of doubt as Fujitora never came close to receiving this level of shockingly abysmal portrayal in his arc.




No sane person would believe he/she can face a yonko alone. They needed to distract big mom with the mother caramel shit to kill her. Nobody believed he can face her. Big mom casually stopped a KKG from luffy.

Donflamingo didn't fear fujitora and *attacked him.* You think he will attack BM or Kaido ? Both kaido and kid weren't impressed by luffy/law feat of taking DD.

When Bm faced Jimbei she was no sane on her mind. Yup chopper blocked a *non hakified* punch that was aiming the boat, not a KKG level punch. Jimbe punched her when she wasn't using haki. And once again : She wasn't sane on her mind (and took 0 damages btw).

Kizaru stalemated with old ray. And admited the marines would need *more* preparation to stop him. Do you think Kaido or BM would say such ??

We could argue *prime* ray was equal or above some of the actual 4 youko. But *Old ray *who didn't use a sword and didn't fight for *years ?
*
Using strategy and fighting them on sea he may (kizaru) win against both of them (since he can sink everyone easily due to dvlf advantage). But 1v1 fight on earth knowing old ray stalemated him ? The only advantage he got here is speed.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 14, 2018)

All the admirals did significantly better in their off guard attacks against commanders than vice versa. 

Jozu lost his arm. 
Aokiji just bled.
Marco did nothing to Kizaru


Heck, Akainu even survived WB’s bloodlusted quake punch. No matter how sick you think he may be, he is still assuredly > Marco.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2018)

Gledania said:


> I partialy agree. 4 emprror alliance is above MF and Shishibukai.
> But no way 2 will beat the WG. Even 3 may still lose.
> They shit "their pants" the same way they would for facing Ray and whitebeard (two legend) on the same time for one simple reason : Casualty. Garp never said they will lose. It may be a way for him to tell that it will cost them a lot. The simple fact of losing a pacifista made sentomaru angry and commenting about how expencive a pacifista worth.
> 
> ...


Stalemating old Ray is more impressive than anything Big Mom has done.

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## Gledania (Aug 14, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Stalemating old Ray is more impressive than anything Big Mom has done.






Casually. 

With no pain , effort , or damage.

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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Casually.
> 
> With no pain , effort , or damage.


She managed to stop a higher end normal attack from a high tier. That's not very impressive for a top tier.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Aug 14, 2018)

Dunno said:


> She managed to stop a higher end normal attack from a high tier. That's not very impressive for a top tier.


G4 firepower is way above average for Luffy’s tier.


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## Dunno (Aug 14, 2018)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> G4 firepower is way above average for Luffy’s tier.


Not really. He wasn't able to overpower Cracker or Katakuri. His firepower is good for a high tier, but nothing to brag about. I expect Big Mom and any other top tier to be able to stop attacks from each other, attacks like Ice Age or Mihawk's mountain-cutter, which makes stopping a regular Kong Gun a very unimpressive feat. If Big Mom was a VA, the feat would be impressive. As it stands, it's neither a detrimental nor a beneficial feat.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Aug 14, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Not really. He wasn't able to overpower Cracker or Katakuri. His firepower is good for a high tier, but nothing to brag about. I expect Big Mom and any other top tier to be able to stop attacks from each other, attacks like Ice Age or Mihawk's mountain-cutter, which makes stopping a regular Kong Gun a very unimpressive feat. If Big Mom was a VA, the feat would be impressive. As it stands, it's neither a detrimental nor a beneficial feat.


Katakuri never took on Boundman attacks head on he hit them from the side to knock them off target. He could knock G4 away tho. I don’t remember the cracker fight all that well. She on the other hand took it fairly easily but it was a short exchange. Although for the level she should be as a yonko I agree it’s not impressive.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 15, 2018)

Dunno said:


> She managed to stop a higher end normal attack from a high tier. That's not very impressive for a top tier.


It's impressive because she did that with no effort.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 15, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Not really. He wasn't able to overpower Cracker or Katakuri. His firepower is good for a high tier, but nothing to brag about. I expect Big Mom and any other top tier to be able to stop attacks from each other, attacks like Ice Age or Mihawk's mountain-cutter, which makes stopping a regular Kong Gun a very unimpressive feat. If Big Mom was a VA, the feat would be impressive. As it stands, it's neither a detrimental nor a beneficial feat.



Can you show me what you consider a low top tier attack?


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## Freechoice (Aug 15, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Kaido
> Akainu
> Teach
> Aokiji/Shanks/Kizaru
> ...




Bitch please


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## Dunno (Aug 15, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> It's impressive because she did that with no effort.


She really didn't though. She leaned into the blow and used hardening, as we can see in the panel that Gledania posted. No effort would be for example the way that Kuma tanked Zoro's slash pre-TS. Low effort, sure, but not no effort. It is what I would expect from any top tier.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Can you show me what you consider a low top tier attack?


I'm not sure what you mean by low top tier attack. This is an attack on the lower end of the top tier spectrum, that I would expect most top tiers to be able to block without much effort:

Seeing as Mihawk used minimal effort to produce the attack, anyone on his level shouldn't need much more to stop it.

The ones we've seen whom I consider to be low top tiers are BM, Fujitora, Kizaru, old Rayleigh and old Garp. So the attack that Fujitora used on Luffy to blow him away or Big Mom's different elemental attacks are examples that I would consider moderately serious attacks from lower top tiers, and I would expect other top tiers to be able to stop them entirely with moderate effort.

All of these attacks are much more powerful than a Kong Gun.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Aug 15, 2018)

Dunno said:


> She really didn't though. She leaned into the blow and used hardening, as we can see in the panel that Gledania posted. No effort would be for example the way that Kuma tanked Zoro's slash pre-TS. Low effort, sure, but not no effort. It is what I would expect from any top tier.
> 
> I'm not sure what you mean by low top tier attack. This is on an attack on the lower end of the top tier spectrum, that I would expect most top tiers to be able to block without much effort:
> 
> ...


 
OK. Yeah by that standard I would actually agree that Kong Gun is high tier level attack. Was curious about your scaling here.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 15, 2018)

Dunno said:


> She really didn't though. She leaned into the blow and used hardening, as we can see in the panel that Gledania posted. No effort would be for example the way that Kuma tanked Zoro's slash pre-TS. Low effort, sure, but not no effort. It is what I would expect from any top tier.
> 
> .


There is no way to know if Kuma used hardening or not, there wasn't any black armament Haki example before the time-skip.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 15, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> There is no way to know if Kuma used hardening or not, there wasn't any black armament Haki example before the time-skip.


 Wouldn’t Zoro’s sword have broke


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## Gohara (Aug 15, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Funny enough, I already addressed this in my very first post that you replied to but you didn't quote it.



It's not a lot like a fire if the world government combined so easily superior to 2 yonkou crews combined.  Also the characters' reactions is a lot more than "it's no problem however just in case let's not let 2 yonkou characters create an alliance" the characters freak out at the idea of it and in many chapters have reiterated how besting a created alliance of 2 yonkou characters would be with a lot of difficulty if not basically impossible.



GilDLax said:


> Did Jozu not blindside Aokiji when Aokiji fought WB?



If Marco is able to land a technique on Mihawk because Mihawk is distracted, Mihawk likely withstands it without a problem.  If Sugar is able to land a technique on Mihawk because Mihawk is distracted, Mihawk is turned into a toy.  Marco is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sugar.  Which means characters can have more applicable techniques than other characters in distractions with characters who have the less effective techniques being superior.  



GilDLax said:


> Did Marco not blindiside Aokiji when Aokiji was about to stab Luffy with his ice blade?



Marco isn't actually bested he's simply sea stones handcuffed.



GilDLax said:


> Did Marco and Vista not attack Akainu by surprise and got no-sold?



It depends on how you look at Akainu's "nghhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!".



GilDLax said:


> Did WB not blindside Akainu and then got half his face destroyed?



Not really as there are a couple panels between when Whitebeard lands and when Whitebeard punches Akainu and Akainu is also told about Whitebeard landing.


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 16, 2018)

The most ridiculous thing I've seen is Fujitora being compared to BM. One got pushed back by a G3 attack, the other casually blocked and stood her ground against G4 attack. Isn't that evidence enough?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Aug 16, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> The most ridiculous thing I've seen is Fujitora being compared to BM. One got pushed back by a G3 attack, the other casually blocked and stood her ground against G4 attack. Isn't that evidence enough?



Evidence of big moms physical strength being higher then Fujitoras yea i would say so.

She was 5 years old and broke a Giants Blade and tossed him into the ground so hard it killed him. Granted he was old as shit but again she was 5 years old. Big moms durable and strong body is her main selling point.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Aug 16, 2018)

Go D. Usopp said:


> love how admiral vs yonkou threads always go past 5 pages atleast



at least its better than discussing mohawk v. skanks


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## Ekkologix (Aug 16, 2018)

redrum said:


> at least its better than discussing mohawk v. skanks



they r the same level of retardedness lol

talking about characters that barely did anything lul. Hype threads xdddeeeee


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## trance (Aug 17, 2018)

Go D. Usopp said:


> they r the same level of retardedness lol



admiral talk is always a step above the rest

@Shiba D. Inu 
@mob 

let em kno


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## Typhon (Aug 17, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Not really. He wasn't able to overpower Cracker or Katakuri. His firepower is good for a high tier, but nothing to brag about. I expect Big Mom and any other top tier to be able to stop attacks from each other, attacks like Ice Age or Mihawk's mountain-cutter, which makes stopping a regular Kong Gun a very unimpressive feat. If Big Mom was a VA, the feat would be impressive. As it stands, it's neither a detrimental nor a beneficial feat.



Per Rayleigh, Katakuri is a top tier and so is Luffy by association. Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous to think G4 Luffy's attacks aren't top tier when he's ragdolled everyone but Big Mom.


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## Dunno (Aug 17, 2018)

Typhon said:


> Per Rayleigh, Katakuri is a top tier and so is Luffy by association. Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous to think G4 Luffy's attacks aren't top tier when he's ragdolled everyone but Big Mom.


He didn't rag-doll Cracker. He was unable to get through Cracker's nerfed defence for 11 hours. How does that in any way indicate that his offence is top tier?


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## Mob (Aug 17, 2018)

redrum said:


> admiral talk is always a step above the rest
> 
> @Shiba D. Inu
> @mob
> ...


Admiral talk is a very serious business


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## trance (Aug 17, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> A single highly ill yonko



not to agree/disagree bout ur overall stance but the yonko in question had a fruit with world ending hype that ppl seemed to genuinely believe

that's some ridiculous power even among the yonko


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## GilDLax (Aug 17, 2018)

I have cancer. My body is so bad now. I can only lift my arm and form my fist but there's not as much strength as when I was healthy

Too bad

Forgot to tell you, my fists induce a ''force'' that can quake the world or at least affect a continent.

...You sure you need physical strength?

I do. I can still stop a gigantic ship when it was paddling fast though

...Whatever you said, arrogant shit

Why you're so mad?


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## Raiden34 (Aug 17, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> The most ridiculous thing I've seen is Fujitora being compared to BM. One got pushed back by a G3 attack, the other casually blocked and stood her ground against G4 attack. Isn't that evidence enough?


I think it is.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 17, 2018)

Typhon said:


> Per Rayleigh, Katakuri is a top tier and so is Luffy by association. Quite frankly I think it's ridiculous to think G4 Luffy's attacks aren't top tier when he's ragdolled everyone but Big Mom.



Kinda agree but Dunno also has a point if you look at Mihawks attack then Luffy's attacks other than King Kong Gun really don't look like top tier level punches. That doesn't mean he himself isnt top tier but his offense looks kinda lackluster compared to other big guys.


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## Gledania (Aug 17, 2018)

@Seraphoenix @Erkan12 @DiscoZoro20

You made a lot point until now but you still didn't putted a raking
How do you rank the Emperors with the admirals in one list ? Wich Emperor is the strongest and wich one is the weakest.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 17, 2018)

Imo it's Blackbeard>Kaido>Shanks>Big Mom>Kizaru>Green bull>Fujitora. Blackbeard as number 1 because I'm speculating that he is close to his peak right now and Green Bull above Fuji cause Oda saved him for later as if he is meant to be a little more special.


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## Raiden34 (Aug 17, 2018)

Gledania said:


> @Seraphoenix @Erkan12 @DiscoZoro20
> 
> You made a lot point until now but you still didn't putted a raking
> How do you rank the Emperors with the admirals in one list ? Wich Emperor is the strongest and wich one is the weakest.


Blackbeard ~ Shanks => Kaido ~ Big Mom

The reason why Blackbeard and Shanks are the last two was E.Oda's choice not mine. He specifically chose Kaido and Big Mom for Luffy's first two Yonko opponents in the new world, these two are going to lose earlier than Shanks and Blackbeard.

Also IM chose Blackbeard's wanted poster as a direct target with Luffy's poster, that basically proves that Blackbeard is the main and the most important antagonist against protagonist Luffy and the World Government.

Shanks on the other hand, joined a meeting with the Gorousei (despite being a pirate). Once again E.Oda separated these two from Kaido and Big Mom.

Kaido and Big Mom are surely as strong as these two (especially Kaido could be more) but the story says that Blackbeard and Shanks are more important and while Blackbeard is very cunning and he is the biggest threat against the World Government, Shanks is a very talented politician as we've seen him from his connections with the World Government.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gledania (Aug 17, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Blackbeard ~ Shanks => Kaido ~ Big Mom
> 
> The reason why Blackbeard and Shanks are the last two was E.Oda's choice not mine. He specifically chose Kaido and Big Mom for Luffy's first two Yonko opponents in the new world, these two are going to lose earlier than Shanks and Blackbeard.
> 
> ...




Luffy is not gonna fight Shanks in the end of serie. I don't thing shanks is even equal to prime roger/white beard. Luffy said his crew is gonna surpass Shanks crew , not "defeat him". The fact that Oda let Kaido and Big mom fight luffy first , doesn't imply they are weaker than shanks since shanks is not going to fight luffy. Hell , we could even say that he will probably die against blackbeard. 

Kaido was tortured , beated , burned ,guillotined , sanked, cutted ect his whole life without a shred.He is the World strongest beast.  Shanks Hand was taken by a sea monster ...

The fact that he didn't die after trying for years is a proof he is way above any yonko until teach master 100% the guragura.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 17, 2018)

Kaido is above anybody alive. That includes Shanks.

Yes he is going to be beaten right now. But to say Shanks is stronger assumes two things:

1. Luffy will beat Kaido 1v1
2. Luffy will fight Shanks 1v1 later on.

The first one is false. The second one might never even happen. Even if it did, by virtue of Kaido's title and narrator hype, Kaido is > Shanks.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Aug 17, 2018)

Shanks is > Kaido.


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## trance (Aug 17, 2018)

Gledania said:


> I don't thing shanks is even equal to prime roger/white beard



that's cuz he's not

no one alive is on their level besides teach if he's officially reached his peak (and by extension, luffy will be at that level too)


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## Sherlōck (Aug 17, 2018)

I don't think Teach will reach Roger/WB level. Prime Garp at best. 

And even to reach that point he first needs to beat Shanks.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 17, 2018)

Imo prime WB and Roger are massively overrated. Sure they may be the strongest to date but there is nothing in the Manga that suggests that they are in a tier of their own. If Roger is a 100 then the current top tiers could easily be a 99 (Kaido) and folks like shanks/Akainu could be 97 or 98. We should wait for actual feats before we hype them through the roof.


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## Freechoice (Aug 17, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> I don't think Teach will reach Roger/WB level. Prime Garp at best.



That's the same level though

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sherlōck (Aug 17, 2018)

Freechoice said:


> That's the same level though



I would say Prime Garp is a bit weaker. 

Roger wins 5 times out of 10 against WB and wins 7 times out of 10 against Garp.

Reactions: Like 1


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## GilDLax (Aug 17, 2018)

WB got much weaker and still an Emperor, the 2nd strongest. So unless WSCreature>>>WSM, I don't see Kaidou being 99% of PrimeWB.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 18, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> If Roger is a 100 then the current top tiers could easily be a 99 (Kaido) and folks like shanks/Akainu could be 97 or 98.



IMO it's more like Roger/WB is *100*, Garp/Kaido/Akainu is *93-97* & the rest are somewhere between *86-92*.


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## Typhon (Aug 18, 2018)

Dunno said:


> He didn't rag-doll Cracker. He was unable to get through Cracker's nerfed defence for 11 hours. How does that in any way indicate that his offence is top tier?


He sent Cracker to another island. How is that not a ragdoll? And it was already shown Luffy could ragdoll individual soldiers, he just got swarmed. 


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Kinda agree but Dunno also has a point if you look at Mihawks attack then Luffy's attacks other than King Kong Gun really don't look like top tier level punches. That doesn't mean he himself isnt top tier but his offense looks kinda lackluster compared to other big guys.



Some months ago we talked about characters vs environment and characters vs other characters. Take Zoro vs Pica for example. 

3000 Worlds cut a mountain of rock clean through multiple times. Zoro uses the same skill on Pica, but you don't see that same ridiculous AoE. Pica's body absorbed enough of the energy that visually its not as impressive

When it comes to G4 Luffy, we've never seen his attacks vs environment or large structures.


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## Ekkologix (Aug 18, 2018)

how do u guys even know that roger is stronger than the _current_ kaido. During the era roger was the PK, kaido perhaps wasent at his prime and now this is Kaido's best form and its possible he surpassed roger.

claiming that roger > kaido is just empty talk. You could say prime roger > Kaido at the time of prime roger, but nothing indicates that prime roger > kaido _now.
_
Current Kaido is the closest thing to being pirate king but he doesn't seem to care for the title so he stays hidden amplifying his army for some reason.


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## GilDLax (Aug 18, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> IMO it's more like Roger/WB is *100*, Garp, Kaido, Akainu is *93-97* & the rest are somewhere between *86-92*.


And Top Commanders are ?


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## Sherlōck (Aug 18, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> And Top Commanders are ?



Yonko FM are at best 70 & so on.


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## GilDLax (Aug 18, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> Yonko FM are at best 70 & so on.


Unless one of the First Mates is significantly stronger, I think that's quite generous. BM is at best 92 according to you and I don't think Katakuri would be at 70 by the same scale.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 18, 2018)

Go D. Usopp said:


> how do u guys even know that roger is stronger than the _current_ kaido. During the era roger was the PK, kaido perhaps wasent at his prime and now this is Kaido's best form and its possible he surpassed roger.
> 
> claiming that roger > kaido is just empty talk. You could say prime roger > Kaido at the time of prime roger, but nothing indicates that prime roger > kaido _now.
> _
> Current Kaido is the closest thing to being pirate king but he doesn't seem to care for the title so he stays hidden amplifying his army for some reason.


How can you claim that it's all empty talk when the other become king while the other stalemate with other top tier hence the Yonko. come back when Kaido become the undisputed king.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 18, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Unless one of the First Mates is significantly stronger, I think that's quite generous.



Strongest FM not all FM are 70.



> BM is at best 92 according to you and I don't think Katakuri would be at 70 by the same scale.



No. I think Katakuri is somewhere between 60-65 at best.


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## GilDLax (Aug 18, 2018)

Sherlōck said:


> Strongest FM not all FM are 70.
> 
> 
> 
> No. I think Katakuri is somewhere between 60-65 at best.


60 is okay. I would decrease it a bit more though.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 18, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> WB got much weaker and still an Emperor, the 2nd strongest. So unless WSCreature>>>WSM, I don't see Kaidou being 99% of PrimeWB.



I don't think Whitebeard was even top 10 in Marineford but thats just opinion VS opinion so fair enough.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 18, 2018)

@Typhon

Yeah true. Tho Imo it's still highly unlikely that a normal Kong Gun would be anywhere near as destructive as Mihawks glacier slash.


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## GilDLax (Aug 18, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I don't think Whitebeard was even top 10 in Marineford but thats just opinion VS opinion so fair enough.


''in Marine Ford'' as in among those physically on MF or you mean at the time of MF arc he was not top10 of the whole OP?

Either way, who are your top10 then?


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## Ekkologix (Aug 18, 2018)

Don King said:


> How can you claim that it's all empty talk when the other become king while the other stalemate with other top tier hence the Yonko. come back when Kaido become the undisputed king.



Does Kaido have any intention of becoming a king tho? Also the standards for Pk now and bk then could be very different. This doesn't have to be like naruto where the first hokage is absurdly more powerful than the others bar Naruto. Kaido might currently be as strong as roger was and there is nothing to prove that wrong or right yet. The difference between these two eras are like 13~15 years. People certainly have much more DF mastery and Haki and/or new technology to enable them to be stronger or as strong as pirates from bk in the day.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 18, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> ''in Marine Ford'' as in among those physically on MF or you mean at the time of MF arc he was not top10 of the whole OP?
> 
> Either way, who are your top10 then?



At the time of Marineford. And my top 10 currently would be:

Blackbeard
Kaido
Akainu
Dragon
Shanks
Aokiji
Shiryu
mihawk
Big mom
Kizaru

...Something like that.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 18, 2018)

Go D. Usopp said:


> Does Kaido have any intention of becoming a king tho? Also the standards for Pk now and bk then could be very different. This doesn't have to be like naruto where the first hokage is absurdly more powerful than the others bar Naruto. Kaido might currently be as strong as roger was and there is nothing to prove that wrong or right yet. The difference between these two eras are like 13~15 years. People certainly have much more DF mastery and Haki and/or new technology to enable them to be stronger or as strong as pirates from bk in the day.


How about WB? while WB is old Kaido is only on his level and WB is considered the uncrowned king(stated by Doffy) and when Roger is the king WB is in his prime. even in old age Kaido can't even beat WB while Roger go toe to toe with prime WB and still called the King of grandline.

and you're right the two era's are different this era right now of piracy to be able to become PK you need to find the One Piece but back then there is no one who told pirates back then to go to raftel and become the PK during Roger Era you need to conquered it means you are known for being the strongest and the only known pirates that been able to tie with the PK is WB. It's very different era but when Roger is active he achieved so many things while Kaido fell short to what Roger achieve.

yes maybe they're equal now no one knows but don't call this nonsense that Roger>Kaido cause it's not. Pirate King is the highest title the pirates can gain even Big mom wants to become one who by the looks of it not even scared to Kaido and while Roger is the King Big Mom is also underneath him.


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## trance (Aug 18, 2018)

someone actually thinks roger could be weaker than kaido?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2018)

Oldbeard (at least non-injured and ~some time pre-MF) was *confirmed* to be > Kaido and anyone else .. the *WSM*

that Oldbeard was weaker than Primebeard, who was = Roger

thus Roger > Kaido


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## GilDLax (Aug 19, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> was *confirmed* to be > Kaido and anyone else .. the *WSM*


Is Kaidou even human to be included in that? He's WSCreature and creature includes human (confirmed in both canon manga and SBS). So Kaidou is the strongest of all and WB was the strongest of human. Makes perfect sense to me. 

People usually use the logic that we have never heard of Kaidou being WSC before timeskip and so WB was stronger. But that is a stupid as hell logic. It could simply be Oda's decision as author to not reveal much until he feels the time is right. We didn't hear BM's real name is Charlotte Linlin pre-TS either. That doesn't mean her name wasn't that and changed O__O...we also didn't hear anything about Fuji or Ryokugyu pre-TS. That doesn't mean they don't exist. They do now.

Whether it's retcon or not, we use the lattest info cause it's the most updated.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Is Kaidou even human to be included in that? He's WSCreature and creature includes human (confirmed in both canon manga and SBS). So Kaidou is the strongest of all and WB was the strongest of human. Makes perfect sense to me.


the Ace novel confirmed that WB was the WSM / Worlds Strongest _Pirate_

basically #1 strongest

Kaidou was (and still is) WSC

WSM > WSC/WSS


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2018)

Kaidou may be the most unkillable, but WB was the strongest

we dont even know if Kaidou is WSM _now_, after WBs death


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## GilDLax (Aug 19, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Worlds Strongest _Pirate_


can I see link?



Shiba D. Inu said:


> WSM > WSC/WSS


Makes no sense cause creature includes human




Shiba D. Inu said:


> we dont even know if Kaidou is WSM _now_,


we don't even know if he's human, why include him in the WSM talk? O__O


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 19, 2018)

Wasn't WB's title the "strongest *man* in the world?"


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## Gledania (Aug 19, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Wasn't WB's title the "strongest *man* in the world?"



Yup , and Kaido the strongest creature.Or beast ... 

Therefor We don't know who to put above the other. I believe no one exept EoS Luffy , EoS teach and roger can beat primebeard.


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## Dunno (Aug 19, 2018)



Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Aug 19, 2018)

Dunno said:


>


 
That begs the question tho why isn't Whitebeard the world's strongest creature? It's a strange paradox tbh.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Aug 19, 2018)

Oda kinda derped a bit on the WSM/WSC thing


but its very clear that Primebeard = Roger > Oldbeard > anyone else in the present (pre-skip or post-skip)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vivo Diez (Aug 19, 2018)

Gets murky with Oldbeard.

Was Marineford WB still the world's strongest man? Marco was surprised when WB couldn't predict that fodder stabbing him, and he's probably participated in every recent battle that WB had been involved in. So that level of deterioration must have not been long before the Marineford war.

Is it still Roger>=WB>Old WB>Marineford WB>rest of the yonko?


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 19, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Gets murky with Oldbeard.
> 
> Was Marineford WB still the world's strongest man? Marco was surprised when WB couldn't predict that fodder stabbing him, and he's probably participated in every recent battle that WB had been involved in. So that level of deterioration must have not been long before the Marineford war.


just assuming maybe after they saw WB condition in MF war they think that he's not the strongest anymore. when is the last time they saw him fight? Even Marco is surprise that WB can't do the normal things he's doing every fight back then.


Vivo Diez said:


> Is it still Roger>=WB>Old WB>Marineford WB>rest of the yonko?


personal opinion. Roger=WB>Old WB>rest of the Yonko>or=to MF WB. to me how can you call him the strongest when during fights your having a disadvantage because of your health. His power is still the best no doubt but he's fuckin sick.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> That begs the question tho why isn't Whitebeard the world's strongest creature? It's a strange paradox tbh.


Fcking title, make us so confuse as hell.


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## Sherlōck (Aug 20, 2018)

Roger ~~ Primebeard >> Yonko/Admirals ~~ OldBeard

Reactions: Like 1


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## GilDLax (Aug 20, 2018)

Dunno said:


>


Are you sure Oda is that specific about pronoun? For all we know it's just a generic  to avoid spoiling who/what Kaidou actually is.


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## Quipchaque (Aug 20, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Are you sure Oda is that specific about pronoun? For all we know it's just a generic  to avoid spoiling who/what Kaidou actually is.



That or another possibility could be that Kaido is half human and half monster.


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## Typhon (Aug 20, 2018)

GilDLax said:


> Are you sure Oda is that specific about pronoun? For all we know it's just a generic  to avoid spoiling who/what Kaidou actually is.


Exactly. Big Mom referred to him as a "thing" vs man and she actually worked with the guy


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## MO (Aug 20, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> Kaidou may be the most unkillable, but WB was the strongest
> 
> *we dont even know if Kaidou is WSM now, after WBs death[*/QUOTE]
> 
> ...


the novel left more doubt. People were conflicted on who was stronger between kaido and whitebeard thats why he had his title. After whitebeard death he is without a doubt the strongest so that bolded sentence is just false.


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## Seraphoenix (Aug 21, 2018)

Gledania said:


> @Seraphoenix @Erkan12 @DiscoZoro20
> 
> You made a lot point until now but you still didn't putted a raking
> How do you rank the Emperors with the admirals in one list ? Wich Emperor is the strongest and wich one is the weakest.


The difference between emperors is extremely small because if the gap was big then they would have defeated each other. That said, based on the manga I would say:
Primebeard/Roger 103 (depending on how Kaido's 1v1 thing is handled)
Kaido 100
Shanks 99
BM 99
Teach 99(could even be the strongest now)

based on how the story would develop I think Shanks will prove to be the strongest of the current crop. This is because Teach beating Shanks will be the catalyst for him to be recognised as WSM imo and top contender for PK.

As for admirals I think the gaps are very small between each other with the exception of Akainu. I don't believe Fujitora or Greenbull are any weaker than say Kizaru. So:
FA Akainu 93
Fujitora/Greenbull/Kizaru 92

For comparison WB at MF with heart attacks and limited haki would be a 93.5.



Shiba D. Inu said:


> the Ace novel confirmed that WB was the WSM / Worlds Strongest _Pirate_
> 
> basically #1 strongest
> 
> ...


Wrong. This is what the Ace novel says:


WB was the strongest pirate from the way he lived. Kaido was 1v1 champ.


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