# What level/tier do you put yhwach in naruto?



## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

As the title says, i just wanna know what level people see yhwach at in naruto, who do you think is the strongest he beats and the weakest he beats, or what tier do you think he belongs in.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 22, 2017)

Top Tier pretty much. I don't want to get into specifics cause that's a big fucking pain due to LAWLmighty but i'm gonna say that he can beat just about anybody bar the upper to God tier opponents under the right conditions but his lack of mindfuck resistance screws him over against quite a few chars .


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## uchihakil (Nov 22, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Top Tier pretty much. I don't want to get into specifics cause that's a big fucking pain due to LAWLmighty but i'm gonna say that he can beat just about anybody bar the upper to God tier opponents under the right conditions but his lack of mindfuck resistance screws him over against quite a few chars .



And what bout prealmighty yhwach, where do you see him?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 22, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> And what bout prealmighty yhwach, where do you see him?


mid to high-High tier due to ZnT ,some haxx and great speed.


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## Vicotex (Nov 22, 2017)

I think he will be in between Hashirama and Juubi/juubito


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 23, 2017)

In the same tier reserved for Otsustuki, and transmigrants. 

Before he unlocked almighty or absorbed God - essentially base Juha. Is probably Hashirama tier.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 23, 2017)

He can defeat Kaguya trough his future alteration ability while nothing anyone does is going to be able to kill him for good.


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## uchihakil (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He can defeat Kaguya trough his future alteration ability while nothing anyone does is going to be able to kill him for good.





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He can defeat Kaguya trough his future alteration ability while nothing anyone does is going to be able to kill him for good.



LoL, by setting traps or what?


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> LoL, by setting traps or what?



He can also rip off her horn.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> LoL, by setting traps or what



By making her regeneration useless.


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## SomnusUltima (Nov 23, 2017)

solo whole verse


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## Vicotex (Nov 23, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> LoL, by setting traps or what?


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 23, 2017)

God Tier.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He can defeat Kaguya trough his future alteration ability while nothing anyone does is going to be able to kill him for good





SomnusUltima said:


> solo whole verse


He most likely wouldn't even reach her but whatever, you guys are right.
That's exactly what Kaguya makes him believe after he gets hit with a rinne-sharingan lvl genjutsu or with IT .


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## WorldsStrongest (Nov 23, 2017)

God tier easily if we talkin EoS lawlmighty


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> He most likely wouldn't even reach her but whatever, you guys are right.
> That's exactly what Kaguya makes him believe after he gets hit with a rinne-sharingan lvl genjutsu or with IT .



He wouldn't fall in genjutsu because of precognition+dimensional travel, even if he did he would just replace himself with his version from another future.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He wouldn't fall in genjutsu because of precognition+dimensional travel


Kaguya can do this too.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> even if he did he would just replace himself with his version from another future


It's always NLFs with Yhwach  isn't there ?
Eh, i'm not gonna enter into another one of those disccusions again. Whaever floats your boat i guess.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> By making her regeneration useless.



How? Also, how he is supposed to be able to rip off her horn willy-nilly like the other poster implied?

Just because he's able to damage Ichigo doesn't mean he can damage Kaguya.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Kaguya can do this too.



Sure but the IT can be dodged this way.



reyatsuguy said:


> It's always NLFs with Yhwach isn't there ?
> Eh, i'm not gonna enter into another one of those disccusions again. Whaever floats your boat i guess.



It isn't NLF, Ichibei's name erasure didn't kill him but completely incapacitated him and Almighty worked anyway.



ATastyMuffin said:


> How? Also, how he is supposed to be able to rip off her horn willy-nilly like the other poster implied?
> 
> Just because he's able to damage Ichigo doesn't mean he can damage Kaguya.



Because any damage he makes is worked into all posible futures like what he did with Zangetsu, to actually do that damage he has like 30 different things he stole from the SR and his own power.


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## Regicide (Nov 23, 2017)

He'd be a god tier, arguably.

The main issue is that he has no real response in regards to powerful genjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Sure but the IT can be dodged this way


Assuming he doesn't get hit first of all.IT works as long as there is a moon. There are dimensions that have moons in them like Kaguya's. Yhwach has like 0 resistance feats to mind-fuck so a normal genjutsu will do the work too.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It isn't NLF, Ichibei's name erasure didn't kill him but completely incapacitated him and Almighty worked anyway.


That's not even the same thing. Unless you have proof that Yhwach can resist planetary mindfuck or mindfuck in general, your claim is a NLF. Plain and simple. Asuumptions don't help.
This is my last post anyway since i'm sick of Yhwach wank and Naruto vs Bleach threads.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Assuming he doesn't get hit first of all.IT works as long as there is a moon. There are dimensions that have moons in them like Kaguya's. Yhwach has like 0 resistance feats to mind-fuck so a normal genjutsu will do the work too.



But he's never being hit with them in the first place because he sees the future, the IT is useless if he goes to his shadow space for a while.



reyatsuguy said:


> That's not even the same thing. Unless you have proof that Yhwach can resist planetary mindfuck or mindfuck in general, your claim is a NLF. Plain and simple. Asuumptions don't help.
> This is my last post anyway since i'm sick of Yhwach wank and Naruto vs Bleach threads.



He had his memories and knowledge erased with his powers and he recovered easily, stuff like mind control and fear inducement wouldn't work either.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> But he's never being hit with them in the first place because he sees the future, the IT is useless if he goes to his shadow space for a while.
> 
> 
> 
> He had his memories and knowledge erased with his powers and he recovered easily, stuff like mind control and fear inducement wouldn't work either.


Whatever you say man.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

It's not so much a question here of whether or not Yhwach could have the Almighty negate the effects of genjutsu. It's intuitively obvious that it's within the Almighty's capabilities; functionally, going from the possibility of "genjutsu'd" to "not genjutsu'd" isn't much different from "dead" to "not dead".

The actual obstacle is if Yhwach would actually know to do this. Some genjutsu effects are pretty obvious and upfront about their shenanigans, while stuff like typical Sharingan bullshit are relatively subtle. Getting caught in Infinite Tsukuyomi, for example, is pretty unambiguously GG in my opinion.


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## Dark Passenger (Nov 24, 2017)

God Tier is where I'd place him thanks to his Almighty. As for the strongest he beats? I'd say Kinshiki. Everyone else would vaporize him if Ichigo's Getsuga and normal sword slashes could end him.


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## Kroczilla (Nov 24, 2017)

depends on what you make of ywach ' s true potential;

going strictly  by his feats, he should easily make top tier with God tier regen

Going by hype and statements, he should easily be the undisputed God tier (almighty + all that strenritter hax + the power to destroy and remake worlds)


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## Montanz (Nov 24, 2017)

depends on how much you wank his NLFs.


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## shieldbounce (Nov 24, 2017)

I thought Infinite Tsukuyomi requires the full moon to be up in the sky for said ability to take effect? If so, it would mean that this ability can only be accessed during nighttime, and not during daytime.

Also, the infinite tsukuyomi does not activate instantly, but takes a bit of time for opponents to be trapped into its effects.


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## shade0180 (Nov 24, 2017)

Lina Shields said:


> I thought Infinite Tsukuyomi requires the full moon to be up in the sky for said ability to take effect? If so, it would mean that this ability can only be accessed during nighttime, and not during daytime.
> 
> Also, the infinite tsukuyomi does not activate instantly, but takes a bit of time for opponents to be trapped into its effects.



Kaguya used IT before Naruto verse even had a moon.

 I have no clue how she did it, but story wise she would have done it that way considering the moon is made when Kaguya/Juubi was sealed in it.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 24, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Kaguya used IT before Naruto verse even had a moon.
> 
> I have no clue how she did it, but story wise she would have done it that way considering the moon is made when Kaguya/Juubi was sealed in it.


Do we have a time frame in which she can activate it without the moon?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 24, 2017)

IT isn't even necesary. Yhwach has 0 feats dealing with mindfuck. An  EMS genjutsu from Sauce or Madara or a casual rinne-sharingan genjutsu from Kaguya should be more than enough. IT is overkill.


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## Vicotex (Nov 24, 2017)

How is yawch even beating itachi?


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 24, 2017)

Vicotex said:


> How is yawch even beating itachi?


You are not that stupid.


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## Vicotex (Nov 24, 2017)

Revan Reborn said:


> You are not that stupid.


You're the being ignorant about itachi's mindfuckery


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 24, 2017)

Itachi is way too slow to not get TK-ed into oblivion as soon as the fight starts.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 24, 2017)

Vicotex said:


> You're the being ignorant about itachi's mindfuckery


You're being ignorant of Yhwach's abilities.
Let's say that he does get caught by his genjitsu, the moment he realises something up, Itachi is screwed. Yhwach would just future manipulate his way out of it,
Now compare his DC/dura compared to Each other, Yhwach is in another league.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 24, 2017)

Yhwach wins because he is way faster and can splatter Itachi on the ground the moment the fight starts not because he can break out of genjutsu. Stop with this NLF bullshit. If he gets hit with genjutsu, it's game over.  Yhwach wouldn't think to use the Allmighty as long as he sees an illusion of himself doing whatever the fuck he wants in blissfull ignorance, not to mention that he wouldn't even know how to get out of it.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Yhwach wins because he is way faster and can splatter Itachi on the ground the moment the fight starts not because he can break out of genjutsu. Stop with this NLF bullshit. If he gets hit with genjutsu, it's game over.  Yhwach wouldn't think to use the Allmighty as long as he sees an illusion of himself doing whatever the fuck he wants in blissfull ignorance, not to mention that he wouldn't even know how to get out of it.


please, It would be blatantly obvious, we he sees the environment around him go haywire.
The Guy literally gained his powers back from being an ant, he can manipulate his way out of something of that caliber. He has sternritter capable of Brainwashing/mind screwing people. Anyway we have shinji seeing through illusions, aka with Aizen's Kido.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 24, 2017)

Revan Reborn said:


> please, It would be blatantly obvious, we he sees the environment around him go haywire.
> The Guy literally gained his powers back from being an ant, he can manipulate his way out of something of that caliber. He has sternritter capable of Brainwashing/mind screwing people. Anyway we have shinji seeing through illusions, aka with Aizen's Kido


Read: "I have no proof of Yhwach dealing with mindfuck because that never happened so i'm gonna state some things he did that have nothing to do with the discipline of mindfucking someone just to make him look impressive and capable of doing it. By this stupid logic, i guess Yhwach can also shrug off Jedi and higher tier mind-fuckers". I'd really want to see a feat of him doing that because i'm bored of assumptions and convinctions that have no backing up whatsoever.
Yhwach wank, alway present, always stronk.


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## Divell (Nov 24, 2017)

He is big boss in term of hax. But low top tier in terms of raw power unless we take the destroying and reforming of words as an example of pure power. We also would have him higher with the size of Seireitei.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 24, 2017)

Honestly it doesn't really matter whether or not he has an answer to itachis genius. Theirs nothing Itachi can do to him outside of stalling.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 24, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Honestly it doesn't really matter whether or not he has an answer to itachis genius. Theirs nothing Itachi can do to him outside of stalling.



Tostuka? 

Also, how would Juha deal with izanashi.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 24, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Tostuka?
> 
> Also, how would Juha deal with izanashi.



Totsuka has never sealed anything as strong as ywatch.

Izanashi?


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 24, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Totsuka has never sealed anything as strong as ywatch.
> 
> Izanashi?




The mind loop genjustu that is explicitly a counter to reality warping.


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## LazyWaka (Nov 24, 2017)

Oh, izanagi.

That genjutsus so impractical it's not worth talking about.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 24, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Oh, izanagi.
> 
> That genjutsus so impractical it's not worth talking about.



Use the reality warping genjustu to survive long enough to record enough events- then use the looping genjustu to fuck Juha. 

Assuming Itachi can even use the reality warping one. 

Even if it's impractical- would it work?


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

IMO there are scenarios that itachi beats ywhach especially scenario's were ywhach has no intel, itachi ends fights before they begin, does ywhach starts off his fights by blitzing??? I dont thnk so, if he doesn't itachi has a chance to catch him with genjutsu especially since the former has no illusion resistance feats, and totsuka seals the deal.


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Use the reality warping genjustu to survive long enough to record enough events- then use the looping genjustu to fuck Juha.
> 
> Assuming Itachi can even use the reality warping one.
> 
> Even if it's impractical- would it work?



Thats izanami, and izanami needs prep, depending on what ywhach uses to fight itachi, he may or may not pull off izanami. Itachi needs to record 3 events then loop the events, if ywhach uses techniques itachi can't handle (with susano) he wont pull it off, if he becomes arrogant and stalls, itachi can activate it. 

So as i said, itachi has a fair chance against ywhach eventhough the former is faster/stronger overall, but itachi uses techniques that already trolled him in canon.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Thats izanami, and izanami needs prep, depending on what ywhach uses to fight itachi, he may or may not pull off izanami. Itachi needs to record 3 events then loop the events, if ywhach uses techniques itachi can't handle (with susano) he wont pull it off, if he becomes arrogant and stalls, itachi can activate it.
> 
> So as i said, itachi has a fair chance against ywhach eventhough the former is faster/stronger overall, but itachi uses techniques that already trolled him in canon.


So? Yhwach can still use a future that winds from a point in time before the genjutsu was even used. Time manipulation>


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Keishin said:


> So? Yhwach can still use a future that winds from a point in time before the genjutsu was even used. Time manipulation>



He can only see the future when the battle starts, he has to see itachi to see the future and how he counters it, and seeing itachi means he's already from the beginning


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> He can only see the future when the battle starts, he has to see itachi to see the future and how he counters it, and seeing itachi means he's already from the beginning


He can spam the almighty far easier than Itachi can genjutsu.
And it's not "the future." Haschwalt can see "the future." Yhwach sees all of it.


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Keishin said:


> He can spam the almighty far easier than Itachi can genjutsu.
> And it's not "the future." Haschwalt can see "the future." Yhwach sees all of it.




Spam the almighty more than itachi can spam genjutsu??? What does that have to do with him getting caught first?

Seeing all of the future means nothing when he's already caught in genjutsu, anything he sees will be what itachi wants him to see, itachi can make him kill himself.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Spam the almighty more than itachi can spam genjutsu??? What does that have to do with him getting caught first?
> 
> Seeing all of the future means nothing when he's already caught in genjutsu, anything he sees will be what itachi wants him to see, itachi can make him kill himself.


Too bad that Yhwach also sees the futures from before the genjutsu was laid on him. His power is:
Point in time-(winds away to multiple)>Futures...


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## Sablés (Nov 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> IT isn't even necesary. Yhwach has 0 feats dealing with mindfuck. An  EMS genjutsu from Sauce or Madara or a casual rinne-sharingan genjutsu from Kaguya should be more than enough. IT is overkill.


Ichibei has a conceptual ability that targets both the body (physical strength and energy) and the conscience (one's ability to recognize X).Ichibei left Yhwach in a vegetative state after shrouding him in ink. Afaic, that's textbook minduck. And like Regi said, he's revived after being killed and without input of his own, so you're splitting hairs at this point.

I have no opinion on IT.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Nov 24, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Too bad that Yhwach also sees the futures from before the genjutsu was laid on him. His power is:
> Point in time-(winds away to multiple)>Futures...



You still dont get it dontcha? Your scenario is only working if say itachi was supposed to go fight ywhach somewhere far off, so ywhach sees the future before itachi comes (if the battle condition was like this, sure ywhach alters the future to his liking)

But in this case, he's starting the fight  looking at itachi, which he gets genjutsued before his almiggty even becomes active.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> You still dont get it dontcha? Your scenario is only working if say itachi was supposed to go fight ywhach somewhere far off, so ywhach sees the future before itachi comes (if the battle condition was like this, sure ywhach alters the future to his liking)
> 
> But in this case, he's starting the fight  looking at itachi, which he gets genjutsued before his almiggty even becomes active.


Yhwach has goo face. Itachi can't catch that eye contact in that form and dies to this. Whip of darkness slap


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because any damage he makes is worked into all posible futures like what he did with Zangetsu, to actually do that damage he has like 30 different things he stole from the SR and his own power.



Which is, again, a complete a total NLF. Just because he's damaged country-level beings is not an indication that he can do the same to small-planet level.


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## Xhominid (Nov 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Yhwach wins because he is way faster and can splatter Itachi on the ground the moment the fight starts not because he can break out of genjutsu. Stop with this NLF bullshit. If he gets hit with genjutsu, it's game over.  Yhwach wouldn't think to use the Allmighty as long as he sees an illusion of himself doing whatever the fuck he wants in blissfull ignorance, not to mention that he wouldn't even know how to get out of it.



When has Itachi ever shown any subtle genjutsu? I know Sasuke has and there's other Genjutsu users who have made subtle Genjutsu too but past Tsukuyomi which I believe requires eye contact and not Itachi just looking at him, I don't think Yhwach will get fucked over by Itachi through any normal Genjutsu.


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Which is, again, a complete a total NLF. Just because he's damaged country-level beings is not an indication that he can do the same to small-planet level.


He's in the same range of firepower though.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 24, 2017)

Keishin said:


> So? Yhwach can still use a future that winds from a point in time before the genjutsu was even used. Time manipulation>



Izanashi was used in order to stop uchiha from using Izanagi- a reality warping power. 

If izanashi works against Izanagi-NO reason it wouldn't work against almightyZ


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## Divell (Nov 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Ichibei has a conceptual ability that targets both the body (physical strength and energy) and the conscience (one's ability to recognize X).Ichibei left Yhwach in a vegetative state after shrouding him in ink. Afaic, that's textbook minduck. And like Regi said, he's revived after being killed and without input of his own, so you're splitting hairs at this point.
> 
> I have no opinion on IT.


Wouldn't that opinion be due Almighty activating after ichibei inked him?


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Izanashi was used in order to stop uchiha from using Izanagi- a reality warping power.
> 
> If izanashi works against Izanagi-NO reason it wouldn't work against almightyZ


Lol thats a pointless argument as it takes forever to ser up so izanagi might as well run out in that time - not to mention yhwach having an actual tangible feat to negate things like ichimonji and  from working. The tier of hax where almighty stands is above anything itachi can do.


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## Vicotex (Nov 24, 2017)

Their hax isn't mindfuckery


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## Masterblack06 (Nov 24, 2017)

Isnt his power also to make any future he choses happen?


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Nov 24, 2017)

Masterblack06 said:


> Isnt his power also to make any future he choses happen?



Any future he himself is capable of achieving. 

He has to perform the action in the future- in order to bring it into the present.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 24, 2017)

Regicide said:


> He's in the same range of firepower though.



Was he ever given like a range of quantifiable energy, though? However many exatons?


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Was he ever given like a range of quantifiable energy, though? However many exatons?


A zettaton or so.


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## Alita (Nov 24, 2017)

Before getting almighty/absorbing soul king he's upper high tier. After getting it he's anywhere from low level god tier to mid level god tier depending on whether that calc regi did was accepted or not.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

Talking about the tiers why is there no calc for Ichigo destroying Yukio's dimension?
Also could Rukia using absolute zero on the city block be worth anything? Apparently going to -50c quickly already caused earthquakes...


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## Lucy75 (Nov 24, 2017)

Anyone toneri level or above beats Yhwach even at his strongest. 

Itachi could beat Yhwach before he absorbed soul king IMO. His genjutsu fucked over kakashi's mind so bad he basically would have died if he had not been immediately hospitalized and even then he was still left unconscious for several days. Yhwach even in his strongest state was deceived by aizen's KS so MS should work fine on a weaker version of him. He can either take him out with that or seal him away with totsuka which which bypasses durability and seals your soul in a gord.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## Sablés (Nov 24, 2017)

Lucy75 said:


> Yhwach even in his strongest state was deceived by aizen's KS


A feat for Aizen, not a blow against Yhwach. The disparity in strength and speed is too much for Itachi to overcome in any form, who'd be comparable to abject fodder like Espada [Base] in that regard.

Anyway, this isn't a versus thread, it's where he ranks on the powerscale.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

Lucy75 said:


> Anyone toneri level or above beats Yhwach even at his strongest.
> 
> Itachi could beat Yhwach before he absorbed soul king IMO. His genjutsu fucked over kakashi's mind so bad he basically would have died if he had not been immediately hospitalized and even then he was still left unconscious for several days. Yhwach even in his strongest state was deceived by aizen's KS so MS should work fine on a weaker version of him. He can either take him out with that or seal him away with totsuka which which bypasses durability and seals your soul in a gord.


Can he really do it before Yhwach sends him out of the planet by pointing his finger? The man has planetary range even before SK.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

Regicide said:


> What?


Absorbs mimihagi and shoots to seireitei

Next chapter shows both of it happen from Seireitei's perspective taking a whopping two pages, or the time Urahara takes to look at awe

*Spoiler*: __


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

He did that while he was in the process of absorbing the Soul King.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

No he said he was going to absorb the soul king.


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

..As he was in the process of doing so.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

"I'm going to take the soul king
Absorb him
And until I've done so 
Don't let anything get in my way" 
Where does this even hint that he's even begun absorbing? He literally says he's decided to do this now. What he absorbed is Mimihagi and the beam came right after it in the seireitei...


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

Mimihagi is the Soul King in this context, for all intents and purposes.


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## Keishin (Nov 24, 2017)

Uhh no, lmao. That was Ukitake/Mimihagi stopping the destruction. The moment Mimihagi was absorbed the destructions of the worlds begun again.

*Spoiler*: __ 







That's all. Mimihagi was absorbed there.
Here is Yhwach's form with the right arm.


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## Regicide (Nov 24, 2017)

Okay, I'll concede that point, since I hadn't caught that one panel with Yhwach touching the jewel/stone container thing.

I still nonetheless argue that he can't do that without having first absorbed Mimihagi, and there's no way for us to correlate the range of his reishi constructs/attacks with his telekinesis regardless.


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Yhwach has goo face. Itachi can't catch that eye contact in that form and dies to this. Whip of darkness slap



It doesn't matter what face he has, he still has eyes to see


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Yhwach has goo face. Itachi can't catch that eye contact in that form and dies to this. Whip of darkness slap
> [LINKHL]227128[/LINKHL]



It doesn't matter what face he has, he still has eyes to see


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## Daio (Nov 25, 2017)

At the top of the God Tiers. The "Almighty" is just too broken and Yhwach has the stats to make things even worse.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Keishin (Nov 25, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> It doesn't matter what face he has, he still has eyes to see


The goo stops the eyecontact so yeh, obviously, it does.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Cause we all know Itachi needs to make eye-contact to cast genjutsu on a fucker.


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## uchihakil (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> The goo stops the eyecontact so yeh, obviously, it does.



Any proof it does??? Or is it just your assumption, prove it does with a panel of ywhach saying the goo stops him from seeing


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## Xhominid (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Cause we all know Itachi needs to make eye-contact to cast genjutsu on a fucker.



Is there really any truly potent Genjutsu that isn't Sharingan Genjutsu?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Is there really any truly potent Genjutsu that isn't Sharingan Genjutsu?


That frog song or whatever is the only one i can think of on the top of my head.


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Is there really any truly potent Genjutsu that isn't Sharingan Genjutsu?


Tayuya's sound based genjutsu?

Honestly, the Sharingan tends to be the standard because everything started revolving around the Uchiha (and by proxy, the Sharingan) later on.


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## The World (Nov 25, 2017)

Kabuto used a low tier genjutsu to put a whole stadium full of people asleep.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

The World said:


> Kabuto used a low tier genjutsu to put a whole stadium full of people asleep.


Don't know how valid that is seeing as Sakura of all people  had no problem getting out of it.


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## Vicotex (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Don't know how valid that is seeing as Sakura of all people  had no problem getting out of it.


Because she has resistance to illusions


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## Vicotex (Nov 25, 2017)

On the other hand, yawch has no feat of resisting any illusion


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Vicotex said:


> On the other hand, yawch has no feat of resisting any illusion


I know, this wasn't related to Yhwach. I was just saying that i wouldn't call  that  an impressive genjutsu in Naruto when a genin Sakura shurgged it off.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> When has Itachi ever shown any subtle genjutsu? I know Sasuke has and there's other Genjutsu users who have made subtle Genjutsu too but past Tsukuyomi which I believe requires eye contact and not Itachi just looking at him, I don't think Yhwach will get fucked over by Itachi through any normal Genjutsu.


When he fought Naruto, he made Naruto attack a illusion of him. That said. He immediately stars using obvious Genjutsu.



Lucy75 said:


> Anyone toneri level or above beats Yhwach even at his strongest.
> 
> Itachi could beat Yhwach before he absorbed soul king IMO. His genjutsu fucked over kakashi's mind so bad he basically would have died if he had not been immediately hospitalized and even then he was still left unconscious for several days. Yhwach even in his strongest state was deceived by aizen's KS so MS should work fine on a weaker version of him. He can either take him out with that or seal him away with totsuka which which bypasses durability and seals your soul in a gord.


Itachi would be disintegrated before he even thinks of forming a plan or even act at all.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

The only Itachi that stands a slither of a chance is Edo Itachi. Living Itachi gets turned into red mush no matter how you cut it.


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## Vicotex (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> I know, this wasn't related to Yhwach. I was just saying that i wouldn't call  that  an impressive genjutsu in Naruto when a genin Sakura shurgged it off.


Then what will you call the genjutsu Sakura shrugged off in "The Last"?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Vicotex said:


> Then what will you call the genjutsu Sakura shrugged off in "The Last"?


Haven't watched it, but if i was to hazard a guess, i would say that it was more impresive than the one in the BOS for the simple fact that Sakura was was far more powerfull and more experienced.


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## Strykervenom (Nov 25, 2017)

Sakura's level....


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 25, 2017)

The genjutsu thing is pointless even if he does get caught in it, which he wont because he can see the future unlike when Aizen used KS against him.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Sure budy, we heard this time and time again. Doesn't make it true.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Sure budy, we heard this time and time again. Doesn't make it true.



They get him in a genjutsu and then what? Run away before the time is up? 

How do they even land the technique if he can see the future?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> They get him in a genjutsu and then what? Run away before the time is up?
> 
> How do they even land the technique if he can see the future?


Getting turned into a drooling vegetable is a victory scenario. They don't have to do anything past that.
It doesn't really matter if he can see the future when he can get hit with genjutsu before he activates the Allmighty and even if he manages to activate it beforehand , seeing the future doesen't shield you from getting mindfucked. There's not corellation between the two. He can see the future all he wants, but he can't see the illusion as that happens in his mind, and even if he somehow was able to see the illusion who's to say that he wouldn't fall for it again and again while trying to get himself out of it , thus putting him in a loop.
Again, it's extremely fallacious to claim that he can just shrug off shit because he can see into the future because by that logic , he should be able to also shrug off high and top tiers mindfuckers like Jedi and stronger beings. We could argue about that if he had any sort of feat dealing with it, but since he doesn't ..it's all assumptions and wishfull thinking. That don't count.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

That also reminds me , sealing him might also do the trick seeing as he needed hundreds of years to come back the last time someone did that to him.
If CT managed to hold off Kagua succesfully, i'm pretty sure it could also hold Yhwach for a good while.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Talking about the tiers why is there no calc for Ichigo destroying Yukio's dimension?
> Also could Rukia using absolute zero on the city block be worth anything? Apparently going to -50c quickly already caused earthquakes...


How do you calc spacial destruction?


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Getting turned into a drooling vegetable is a victory scenario. They don't have to do anything past that.
> It doesn't really matter if he can see the future when he can get hit with genjutsu before he activates the Allmighty and even if he manages to activate it beforehand , seeing the future doesen't shield you from getting mindfucked. There's not corellation between the two. He can see the future all he wants, but he can't see the illusion as that happens in his mind, and even if he somehow was able to see the illusion who's to say that he wouldn't fall for it again and again while trying to get himself out of it , thus putting him in a loop.
> Again, it's extremely fallacious to claim that he can just shrug off shit because he can see into the future because by that logic , he should be able to also shrug off high and top tiers mindfuckers like Jedi and stronger beings. We could argue about that if he had any sort of feat dealing with it, but since he doesn't ..it's all assumptions and wishfull thinking. That don't count.


He did came back from death and a vegetative state though


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 25, 2017)

Yhwach came back from being literally conceptually fucked. From the point of not even remember his own name, nor power.
Ichibe literally mindfucked him, except to the conceptable extent which is >>>> any mindfcukery in Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

See, this is where you fuckers jump the gun , cause those are different things. Haxx is haxx. IF you come back from one category of haxx, you can't automatically come back from all of them. The issue here isn't even if he could back from that or not , it's wheter if he would even know how to...
For the milionth  time the man dosen't have feats, so all the shit you are stating are only assumptions.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Again. He came back from vegetative state. He would get hit. And then proceed to swap to another timeline.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> Again. He came back from vegetative state. He would get hit. And then proceed to swap to another timeline.


Again, you have no proof of this.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 25, 2017)

No it's a blatant feat right their. doesn't matter if it s a different hax, it still will fall under the same category as what happened to ichibe's ability.
He would figure out how to the exact same way as he did with Ichibe.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Again, you have no proof of this.


He literally did this when he died.


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 25, 2017)

His ability allows him to understand what he sees from all given perspectives.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Getting turned into a drooling vegetable is a victory scenario. They don't have to do anything past that.



Ichibei did that when he erased his name and it didn't work and then he also returned from being dead.



reyatsuguy said:


> It doesn't really matter if he can see the future when he can get hit with genjutsu before he activates the Allmighty and even if he manages to activate it beforehand , seeing the future doesen't shield you from getting mindfucked. There's not corellation between the two. He can see the future all he wants, but he can't see the illusion as that happens in his mind, and even if he somehow was able to see the illusion who's to say that he wouldn't fall for it again and again while trying to get himself out of it , thus putting him in a loop.



Either see himself standing idly or the illusion and then that same illusion ending and actual reality resuming.



reyatsuguy said:


> Again, it's extremely fallacious to claim that he can just shrug off shit because he can see into the future because by that logic , he should be able to also shrug off high and top tiers mindfuckers like Jedi and stronger beings. We could argue about that if he had any sort of feat dealing with it, but since he doesn't ..it's all assumptions and wishfull thinking. That don't count.



He got all his memories, thoughts and powers erased, then he was dead, how's that different than being incapacitated by an illusion?

There's also the fact that The Love and The Fear wouldn't work in him  even without Almighty and soul king powers.


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## Daio (Nov 25, 2017)

The "Almighty" allows Yhwach to see all possible futures and everything he sees, he knows and any powers he knows becomes useless against him. 

So, any Genjutsu would become powerless as long as Yhwach has The "Almighty" activated.


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## Vicotex (Nov 25, 2017)

Daio said:


> The "Almighty" allows Yhwach to see all possible futures and everything he sees, he knows and any powers he knows becomes useless against him.
> 
> So, any Genjutsu would become powerless as long as Yhwach has The "Almighty" activated.


No limit fallacy


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## Vicotex (Nov 25, 2017)

All I see here is NLF
Yawch get fucked the moment he meets juubito


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## Keishin (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> How do you calc spacial destruction?


By calcing the size of the dimension destroyed


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> By calcing the size of the dimension destroyed


5.3 in diameter if only encompassing Karakura Town.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> To be fair Jedi Mindfuckery is on a completely different tier than even Infinite Tsukuyomi...


I know but that's not the point. Well, IT has planetary range and it mindfucked all the inhabitants of Earth, so that would rival with some low to mid-tier stuff in SW but my point was that with their shaky logic you could argue the same for Yhwach's resistance to SW mindfuck. That's how fallacious that logic of theirs is. 
Bottom line is that by using their logic you can argue for immune mindfuck Yhwach in general which is fucking bonkers because being able to see in the future somehow makes you immune from being showed whatever you want to see in an illusion and not even realizing you were caught in it or immune to a mental suggestion so powerfull that it could make kill yourself ad nauseaum.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Look. Imma explain this by steps.

Yhwach get mindfucked
Switch to timeline where he is unaffected.
He can be mindfucked. He can free himself from it. 

Is he brain death, paralyzed, OK. friend free himself from vegetative state and death state. It won't matter what you do to his brain.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

yeah, yeah, i 've had this disccusion with 4th dimension Reyatsu already. That went really well for him. So you fuckers are arguing for immune Yhwach to mindfuck in general. Cool. Go tell Fang that Yhwach is immune from Jedi mindfuck. See how that goes.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

I think you confuse immunity with being able to free himself.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Whatever, still a NLF.


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## Xhominid (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> Look. Imma explain this by steps.
> 
> Yhwach get mindfucked
> Switch to timeline where he is unaffected.
> ...



I don't think he can move to a different timeline if his mind is too fucked up to think otherwise...


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> I don't think he can move to a different timeline if his mind is too fucked up to think otherwise...


Example one Yhwach was death. Example two yhwach had no idea who he was, had no powers and had the abilities of an ant. 

I'm sure the switching is automatic.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 25, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> I don't think he can move to a different timeline if his mind is too fucked up to think otherwise...



Depends how the mindfuck was done.

Mindfucking him into brain death or w.e = "regen"

on the other hand if you put him in a permanent illusion world where everything is going his way = no "regen"


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Depends how the mindfuck was done.
> 
> Mindfucking him into brain death or w.e = "regen"
> 
> on the other hand if you put him in a permanent illusion world where everything is going his way = no "regen"


Which is exactly how Aizen could work him.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 25, 2017)

Of course the problem is that kubo is a fucking retard

I may actually ban yhwach threads honestly because his powers genuinely make no sense

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 2 | Winner 2


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

They are wankable and easilly abuseable due to the fact that Lawlmighty is more or less an unifinished and vague ability. That's for sure.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> They are wankable and easilly abuseable due to the fact that Lawlmighty is more or less an unifinished and vague ability. That's for sure.



It's not even that it's vague and unfinished, I could live with that in a battledome environment because that's easily dismissable "oh, you don't know what it does? fuck off then." 

The problem is that we know vaguely how it's meant to work AND ... it doesn't actually work that way. Kubo describes it working one way, shows it working another and then Yhwach is killed by something that should never be able to kill him. It's just straight up genuine internal inconsistency, the final arc was rushed to such an extent that he evidently didn't have time to nail down how the ability was going to work and how Ichigo was going to beat it.

Let's run down what the problem here is, ignoring anything about "future manipulation" bullshit technobabble etc.

In Chapter 609 Ichibei erases Yhwach's powers and Yhwach displays the ability to negate this while the power isn't even active. So while the Almighty isn't active and most importantly _while it's erased_ it's still hax enough to lolnope this. Then in Ch. 610 Ichibei uses another ability to erase Yhwach's body/soul/etc. which is lolnoped by the Almighty. Then in 684 Yhwach clarifies that he can lolnope his own death.

To sum up:

1. The power can activate from beyond the grave.
2. The power can activate when his soul is erased.
3. The power can activate when it itself is erased.

So how does Ichigo beat this power? He beats it by Yhwach getting hit by the plot-arrow which seals his power, then kills him.

Wait what? Didn't we just establish that the Almighty can activate itself even when it's erased and after Yhwach is dead? Yes, yes we did. So Yhwach was beaten by a sequence of events that Kubo EXPLICITLY showed us could not beat him.

I.e. kubo is a hack, bleach is stupid and Yhwach should never be debated.

Reactions: Like 5


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> the final arc was rushed to such an extent that he evidently didn't have time to nail down how the ability was going to work and how Ichigo was going to beat it.


It's not so much that there was a lack of time so much as.. Kubo got fed up with the health problems associated with being a weekly serialized artist.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 25, 2017)

Regicide said:


> It's not so much that there was a lack of time so much as.. Kubo got fed up with the health problems associated with being a weekly serialized artist.



Either or


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## Sablés (Nov 25, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> It's not even that it's vague and unfinished, I could live with that in a battledome environment because that's easily dismissable "oh, you don't know what it does? fuck off then."
> 
> The problem is that we know vaguely how it's meant to work AND ... it doesn't actually work that way. Kubo describes it working one way, shows it working another and then Yhwach is killed by something that should never be able to kill him. It's just straight up genuine internal inconsistency, the final arc was rushed to such an extent that he evidently didn't have time to nail down how the ability was going to work and how Ichigo was going to beat it.
> 
> ...


Can't disagree with any of that.

Hell, by how his powers were shown to work, he should have seen that arrow coming in the first place.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> So how does Ichigo beat this power?


It's been a long time since  i have read Bleach so don't quote me on this ,but wasn't that plot-arrow made or imbued with the Allmighty itself ? Like, the only thing that can kill my power is my power, something ironic like that. 
I think it's either this or Ichigo was meant to be Bleach's Jesus and he could just to shit like this. Of course that was never expended upon so assumptions is all that they are.


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## Sablés (Nov 25, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> It's been a long time since  i have read Bleach so don't quote me on this ,but wasn't that plot-arrow made or imbued with the Allmighty itself ? Like, the only thing that can kill my power is my power, something ironic like that.
> I think it's either this or Ichigo was meant to be Bleach's Jesus and he could just to shit like this. Of course that was never expended upon so assumptions is all that they are.


The arrow was made from the remains of Uryu's mother, who got Auschwalen'd (power erase thing Yhwach pulls on Quincies). Apparently, there were traces of the technique in her body that could be weaponized and used against Yhwach.

It had nothing to do with the almighty but his foundation as a Quincy. If there was a relation between, it's speculative at best.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 25, 2017)

Sablés said:


> The arrow was made from the remains of Uryu's mother, who got Auschwalen'd (power erase thing Yhwach pulls on Quincies). Apparently, there were traces of the technique in her body that could be weaponized and used against Yhwach.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the almighty but his foundation as a Quincy. If there was a relation between, it's speculative at best.


Got it, thanks.


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## FrozenFeathers (Nov 25, 2017)

This cannot create a good discussion nor can we come up with any measurements to accurately gauge Yhwach's powers, as a result we cant draw a clear conclusion either.

The factors that are responsible for this are:

1) The way Kubo writes.
So Kubo has a habit of using hyperboles and roundabout statements to create hype to dramatize the events. We know this from Aizen's statement about Orihime's power, Aizen's statement about the hougyoku, Rukia's statement about the soul balance. The problem with these are that they are inconsistent(Orihime's ability not working, Seretei's size being inconsistent), and also contradict each other IN CANON(Ichimaru's speed statement being false, the true nature of hougyoku being different from what Urahara himself thought it to be).

He does not seem to give raw feats every now and then the way we want or the way Naruto's ending got raw feats.
But he does at least give one raw feat for a major upgrade.

2) Yhwach.
And then we have the final vllain's final powers thing going on where Kubo had to come up with the most broken crap to make Yhwach relevant before the hougyoku.

3) The forced ending.
We all know Kubo had some valid way to beat Yhwach other than the asspull arrow, like some FGT2.0 Ichigo tagging up with final form Aizen where we get to see Allmighty's limitations and upper limit,  if he got the chance he would give at least one raw feat like he did with Gremmy's meteor.
But they forced him to end ruining his vision of the ending.

All of this stacked together makes Yhwach's vague powerset too hard to gauge with numbers the way we do in the OBD

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Revan Reborn (Nov 25, 2017)

Anyway, if we were to relate Chakra to Spirit energy, those with a ton more Spirit energy should be able to resist opponents attacks of a lower caliber, like with Aizen and squad 2's captain.


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## Catalyst75 (Nov 25, 2017)

FrozenFeathers said:


> But they forced him to end ruining his vision of the ending.



It would be more accurate he abandoned the rest of the story to get to the ending _*he *_wanted.  

To give my two bits on Yhwach's "The Almighty", I feel it is like this:

1. He is limited to one action at a time when "altering the Future".  Otherwise, he'd just "alter the future" into a situation where he's already defeated his enemy outright.

2. He sees all "possible futures", _but those possible futures depend on what he himself is capable of.  _Otherwise, we wouldn't have a situation of him not being able to defeat Yamamoto (or Ichibei) a thousand years ago.

3.  His power is vulnerable to other Causality manipulators, as Uryu's "Antithesis" was stated to be the perfect counter to "The Almighty", as well as the ability that surpasses Yhwach's own power (though given Kubo, we never saw it because he needed to service his Princess).


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 25, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> 2. He sees all "possible futures", _but those possible futures depend on what he himself is capable of. _Otherwise, we wouldn't have a situation of him not being able to defeat Yamamoto (or Ichibei) a thousand years ago.



this is wishful thinking imo


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## Keishin (Nov 25, 2017)

Lol@Hogyoku being that hax before Almighty
Yukio>Hogyoku
Altering how events play out:

Tsukishima>Hogyoku
Changing the Plot of Bleach:


Also Kubo was working with a broken shoulder anyway which apparently healed only recently.


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

FrozenFeathers said:


> But they forced him to end ruining his vision of the ending.


The only person who forced Bleach to end was Kubo himself. He rushed the ending because his declining health wasn't worth it anymore.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 25, 2017)

Regicide said:


> A zettaton or so.



Can you give me a rundown of all the accepted god-tier calcs in Naruto? Just to know where Yhwach's zettaton stands in comparison.

Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb, Toneri's moon-pulling, Madara's Chibaku Tensei.


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Can you give me a rundown of all the accepted god-tier calcs in Naruto? Just to know where Yhwach's zettaton stands in comparison.
> 
> Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb, Toneri's moon-pulling, Madara's Chibaku Tensei.


You'd be better off asking @LazyWaka or @iwandesu.


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## Sablés (Nov 25, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> 2. He sees all "possible futures", _but those possible futures depend on what he himself is capable of. _Otherwise, we wouldn't have a situation of him not being able to defeat Yamamoto (or Ichibei) a thousand years ago.


Pretty sure I've said this before but, again, no? Almighty does or is limited to what it can do, not what Yhwach can.  That's he able to trounce Ichigo at all despite being hilariously inferior in power suggests his internal abilities aren't a necessary factor.

He didn't even use the almighty on Yama.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Sablés (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Can you give me a rundown of all the accepted god-tier calcs in Naruto? Just to know where Yhwach's zettaton stands in comparison.
> 
> Kaguya's Truthseeker Orb, Toneri's moon-pulling, Madara's Chibaku Tensei.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 25, 2017)

So Toneri's moon pull is 1.5 zettatons, around Yhwach's calc'ed firepower, which can be scaled to Kinrin Tensei Baku which BSM Naruto shrugged off and who should be weaker than Kaguya significantly.

In other words, can Yhwach even hurt Kaguya?


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## Sablés (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So Toneri's moon pull is 1.5 zettatons, around Yhwach's calc'ed firepower, which can be scaled to Kinrin Tensei Baku which BSM Naruto shrugged and off and who should be weaker than Kaguya significantly.
> 
> In other words, can Yhwach even hurt Kaguya?


This is more of a +++ deal that usually doesn't mean too much for cross versus debates but playing that game, this feat can be accomplished by Yhwach in the state of a nigh-corpse.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 25, 2017)

Sablés said:


> This is more of a +++ deal that usually doesn't mean too much for cross versus debates but playing that game, this feat can be accomplished by Yhwach in the state of a nigh-corpse.



ehhhhhh Yhwach rewrote his death altogether, so I'm not going to attribute that feat to a husk of himself; he was at full power.

Didn't look like a corpse when Ichigo cut him either.


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> So Toneri's moon pull is 1.5 zettatons, around Yhwach's calc'ed firepower, which can be scaled to Kinrin Tensei Baku which BSM Naruto shrugged off and who should be weaker than Kaguya significantly.
> 
> In other words, can Yhwach even hurt Kaguya?


I doubt we can scale to the Golden Wheel as Toneri was using Solar Energy and a lot more of Tenseigan that he could handle.


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## Keishin (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> I doubt we can scale to the Golden Wheel as Toneri was using Solar Energy and a lot more of Tenseigan that he could handle.


Solar energy lol what


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## Divell (Nov 25, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Solar energy lol what


Wasn't that what he over charged himself with?


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> around Yhwach's calc'ed firepower


Nay, my good man, the yield is insignificant compared to anything in actual combat.


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

ATastyMuffin said:


> ehhhhhh Yhwach rewrote his death altogether, so I'm not going to attribute that feat to a husk of himself; he was at full power.
> 
> Didn't look like a corpse when Ichigo cut him either.


Tables is referring to how Yhwach's corpse was preserved as the Soul King, which is just as effectual as he was when he was alive.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 25, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Tables is referring to how Yhwach's corpse was preserved as the Soul King, which is just as effectual as he was when he was alive.



Ah.

But as you said, it's not really a combat feat for him right


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## Regicide (Nov 25, 2017)

Doesn't matter. The energy's coming from him regardless.


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## Boruto (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> I doubt we can scale to the Golden Wheel as Toneri was using Solar Energy and a lot more of Tenseigan that he could handle.


The moon pulling has nothing to do with the Byakugan he absorbed or solar energy. He started pulling it all by himself casually with the power of his own Tenseigan way before that, acting as a replacement for the Tenseigan Energy Vessel which was moving it until Naruto and Hinata destroyed it.


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## kayz (Nov 25, 2017)

Top tier - His hax makes him hang out with the God tiers


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## LazyWaka (Nov 25, 2017)

Divell said:


> Wasn't that what he over charged himself with?



That didn't happen until after the fight.


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## Divell (Nov 26, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> That didn't happen until after the fight.


And the moon moving?


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## Vicotex (Nov 26, 2017)

Divell said:


> And the moon moving?


What do you mean by this?


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## Divell (Nov 26, 2017)

Vicotex said:


> What do you mean by this?


Wasn't the moon moving when he was literally dressed with Tenseigan eyes?


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## LazyWaka (Nov 26, 2017)

The moon was moving since the beginning of the film.


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## Vicotex (Nov 26, 2017)

Divell said:


> Wasn't the moon moving when he was literally dressed with Tenseigan eyes?


I don't think so
I have to re-watch it


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## Vicotex (Nov 26, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> The moon was moving since the beginning of the film.


There was a time it stopped


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## Lucy75 (Nov 26, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Of course the problem is that kubo is a fucking retard
> 
> *I may actually ban yhwach threads honestly* because his powers genuinely make no sense



I support this. Nearly every yhwach thread I've seen has him getting wanked in some way or form.


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## Divell (Nov 26, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> The moon was moving since the beginning of the film.


It stopped for a while.


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## Boruto (Nov 26, 2017)

Divell said:


> It stopped for a while.


The moon was being moved by the machine filled with the Ootsutsuki clan's Byakugan, then Naruto and Hinata destroyed it and that's when the moon stopped getting closer to the Earth. Soon after, Toneri replicates what the machine did with his Tenseigan and starts moving the moon all on his own. Him absorbing the Byakugan from the machine and the sun's energy have nothing to do with that. That was his last, desperate attempt to blow up the Earth after Naruto had already beaten him.

Simple.


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## Divell (Nov 27, 2017)

skullguy said:


> The moon was being moved by the machine filled with the Ootsutsuki clan's Byakugan, then Naruto and Hinata destroyed it and that's when the moon stopped getting closer to the Earth. Soon after, Toneri replicates what the machine did with his Tenseigan and starts moving the moon all on his own. Him absorbing the Byakugan from the machine and the sun's energy have nothing to do with that. That was his last, desperate attempt to blow up the Earth after Naruto had already beaten him.
> 
> Simple.


I'm gonna check it again later but I don't remember it that way.


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## Maacalin (Nov 27, 2017)

Divell said:


> I'm gonna check it again later but I don't remember it that way.


Thats what happend


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

If Bach's main threat is genjutsu (as this thread implies), then he should be at the top of the Narutoverse since the person with the most troublesome genjutsu (Itachi) is far inferior in stats, which would make landing his genjutu too hard 9 times out of 10 when you toss in Bach's range. 

Kaguya never even attempted IT during her fight with the only 2 people that could seal her away, and Zetsu didn't even suggest it as an option. However she used it in the past, it must have required prep because it doesn't seem like an option she'd have mid-battle. Any other genjutsu can be broken out of, unless I'm missing something.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> If Bach's main threat is genjutsu


It's one of them, and the easiest way to deal with him. Either that or sealing.


Hamaru said:


> since the person with the most troublesome genjutsu (Itachi)


Itachi isn't the one with the most troublesome genjutsu. Kaguya, Madara and Obito have acces to IT while Kotoamatsukami is above what Itachi can do. Also, since Mustache- koon never dealt with genjutsu or with mind-fuck in general , high tier Genjutsu shouldn't even be needed. A casual MS genjutsu should be more than enough.


Hamaru said:


> Kaguya never even attempted IT during her fight with the only


Yeah, it's not like one of she actually used it before and one of "these" people was immune to it. Also, hello C.I.S and P.I.S.


Hamaru said:


> and Zetsu didn't even suggest it as an option


Yeah, because Zetsu has a brain and understood from the first time that Sauce 's Rinnegan lolnopes IT.


Hamaru said:


> However she used it in the past, it must have required prep because it doesn't seem like an option she'd have mid-battle


That's an assumption and an unlikely one since she was able to cast it without the moon. 
Again, IT is overkill here, that's something that could be used to deal with Bleach as a whole not just Yhwach unless of course you want to take a page out of Divell, book and say that Yhwach is immune to mindfuck or that he can come back for every kind of mindfuck.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Any other genjutsu can be broken out of, unless I'm missing something


Yeah , by the people who have the feats of breaking out of genjutsu or mindfuck abbilities in general. If one doesn't have these feats, then no , they can't unless you want to get into NLFs and nobody wants that.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> It's one of them, and the easiest way to deal with him. Either that or sealing.
> 
> Itachi isn't the one with the most troublesome genjutsu. Kaguya, Madara and Obito have acces to IT while Kotoamatsukami is above what Itachi can do. Also, since Mustache- koon never dealt with genjutsu or with mind-fuck in general , high tier Genjutsu shouldn't even be needed. A casual MS genjutsu should be more than enough.
> 
> ...




Itachi IS the one with the most troublesome genjustu since NOBODY has shown the ability to use genjutsu on his level MID-BATTLE, with an instant effect. IT, as we've seen it requires prep + a kick-in period, as seen by how it wasn't effecting Tsunade, Kiba, or the others when it was first activated. If used in the way that the manga showed, Bach would be able to see the IT and how it works via Almighty and then counter it since it doesn't kick-in immediately. That isn't a NLF, it is just a weakness in IT that Back can exploit.

Reference:




As you can see, that is more than enough time for Bach to see how a future would go if he stayed around gazing at the moon. If you have anything else, feel free to post a scan or reference an actual jutsu instead of vaguely using the term "genjutsu".


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Again, IT is overkill. Normal genjutsu from say... Sauce's MS should work  just fine. Also, Allmighty should not be taken seriously since as Nighty pointed out, it contradicts itself  and is inconsistent as all fuck .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Again, IT is overkill. Normal genjutsu from say... Sauce's MS should work  just fine. Also, *Allmighty should not be taken seriously* since as Nighty pointed out, it contradicts itself  and is inconsistent as all fuck .



Horrible argument. Regardless of how you feel about it, we can use what Bach has shown himself able to do. IT won't be any problem to Bach for the reasons I already stated. As for "normal genjutsu from say...Sauce's MS" that isn't an argument that would work unless you know what is being seen in the illusion (supposing that Sasuke even gets to use his genjutsu). If Sasuke can't make Bach pleased within the illusion (something Sasuke has not shown himself able to do), then Bach would alter reality by selecting a different future. 

Show one genjutsu that would lock Bach in a loop of bliss because that is the only option they have within their verse. Sealing him won't even work because we've seen Almighty bring back his power once it was taken away, and we seen it work after he was killed via reviving him, not to mention the abilities he gained from the SR which includes Miracle.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Horrible argument


It's really not since we have prime examples that one time it works like it's supposed to and other times it doesn't.


Hamaru said:


> Regardless of how you feel about it, we can use what Bach has shown himself able to do


Exactly, and from what we have seen, Allmighty is a shitty unfinished ability that isn't consinstent.


Hamaru said:


> IT won't be any problem to Bach for the reasons I already stated


IT is overkill.


Hamaru said:


> As for "normal genjutsu from say...Sauce's MS" that isn't an argument that would work unless you know what is being seen in the illusion (supposing that Sasuke even gets to use his genjutsu). If Sasuke can't make Bach pleased within the illusion (something Sasuke has not shown himself able to do), then Bach would alter reality by selecting a different future.


That's a NLF . Add to that the fact that the Allmighty isn't consistent and i'm gonna stick to no taking it seriously.


Hamaru said:


> Show one genjutsu that would lock Bach in a loop of bliss because that is the only option they have within their verse


I don't really have to show anything since Yhwach has 0  feats when it come to mindfuck.


Hamaru said:


> Sealing him won't even work because we've seen Almighty bring back his power once it was taken away, and we seen it work after he was killed via reviving him, not to mention the abilities he gained from the SR which includes Miracle


Yeah, right, he took hundreds of years to come back from getting sealed. We also see Allmighty failing to work as it did previously because it's inconsistent.


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

Narutoverse has bo answer for an ability that manipulates time

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Narutoverse has bo answer for an ability that manipulates time


Except it even doesn't do that half the time.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Except it even doesn't do that half the time.


it does

but he's disingenuously phrased the definition nebulously to make it sound more abstract (and therefore dangerous) than it is.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> It's really not since we have prime examples that one time it works like it's supposed to and other times it doesn't.
> 
> Exactly, and from what we have seen, Allmighty is a shitty unfinished ability that isn't consinstent.
> 
> ...



That was a long way of saying that you have no argument. You can't say something is a NLF when there is a clear limitation, which is one I've stated among others unstated. You just don't like the fact that the Narutoverse has no way of dealing with Bach, and you can't think of a single jutsu that would work. You couldn't even think of an argument for IT once I posted the scans. All you do is make baseless statements. 

Bach knew all about Ichigo's bankai power before he ever had a chance to use it because in one future Ichigo had already used it. That same thing would apply to those in the Narutoverse, who, like Ichigo, might have had a way of dealing with him. Bach just has too much for any single person in the Narutoverse to handle.


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## ACE NITRO (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Narutoverse has bo answer for an ability that manipulates time


Am confused wasn't aizen genjustu part of the reasons bach was defeated if so rinnegan sasuke can Casually mind fuck i think?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> That was a long way of saying that you have no argument


If i had a nickle...


Hamaru said:


> You just don't like the fact that the Narutoverse has no way of dealing with Bach, and you can't think of a single jutsu that would work


Oh look another assumption. How nice.


Hamaru said:


> All you do is make baseless statements.


Oh, the irony...


Hamaru said:


> Bach knew all about Ichigo's bankai power before he ever had a chance to use it because in one future Ichigo had already used it


Too bad he couldn't see that arrow that fucked him up . That's innconsistency number one. There are others like this but you convieniently ignore those and bank everything on a power that at the end of the day has vague showings and workings , not to mention contradictory showings. Not to mention that KS fucked him...
Since we're making assumptions there, i'll have a go at it.
You are still salty that Bleach is < Nardo overall and try to abuse the Allmighty exactly because it doesn't make any sense. Not only that but you throw random accusations on others to mask this very fact.
Like it's really simple .You don't even know how we do things here. From the begining of this little thread the Bleach brigade has insisted that Yhwach could in fact get out of genjutsu, one of them , in his infinite fanboiness even said that Yhwach could shrug off mindfuck in general ( including high tier shit like Jedi mindfuck). All of this whitout providing one single feat of that. What is the most important thing when it comes OBD batles ? Feats. Yhwach doesn't have any. That's not a baseless assumption , that's a fact. Allmighty being inconsistent is also a fact since we heave examples of it. So, not  a baseless claim on my part.
So, i ask you, my dear little wanker :Why should i believe Almighty does shit in the OBD when in it's own series, it got him killed DESPITE the fact it showed to be immune to the effects of that arrow prior to that?
Why should i assume it will work on Genjutsu ? Or against any tehnique in general ? Especially when we are talking about a foreign tehnique that he hasn't dealt with ?


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

ACE NITRO said:


> Am confused wasn't aizen genjustu part of the reasons bach was defeated if so rinnegan sasuke can Casually mind fuck i think?



1) Sasuke's MS genjutsu isn't on the level of Aizen's.
2) Aizen is a god-like character who is on another plane of existence than 99% of the Bleachverse, which effects his overall power, including his illusions.
3) Aizen possesses the wish granting Hog, which can also amplify his power. 
4) Aizen has the benefit of being able to use his illusions without any clear activation actions, while Sasuke has to activate MS, which is an issue for the same reasons activating bankai was an issue for Ichigo (i.e. Bach would see the future threat of MS and destroy it in one of the many futures, like he did with Ichigo's bankai).


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> That's innconsistency number one.


It's about the only inconsistency, really.

Genjutsu works fine. It just needs to be sufficient powerful or sufficiently subtle. IT meets those reqs but I dont know anything else that does in Nardol


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Except it even doesn't do that half the time.





ACE NITRO said:


> Am confused wasn't aizen genjustu part of the reasons bach was defeated if so rinnegan sasuke can Casually mind fuck i think?


He was not but Atleast aizen has a feat of destroying the cleaner that also manipulates time to make an argument for him controlling the sight of the futures.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Let's run down what the problem here is, ignoring anything about "future manipulation" bullshit technobabble etc.
> 
> In Chapter 609 Ichibei erases Yhwach's powers and Yhwach displays the ability to negate this while the power isn't even active. So while the Almighty isn't active and most importantly _while it's erased_ it's still hax enough to lolnope this. Then in Ch. 610 Ichibei uses another ability to erase Yhwach's body/soul/etc. which is lolnoped by the Almighty. Then in 684 Yhwach clarifies that he can lolnope his own death.
> 
> ...



Nighty put it much better than i could, so i'm gonna quote the great points she made.

That is all.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Also going to mention Liltotto has Pepe's mind control but said she didn't use it against Yhwach because fuck all chance of it working,

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> -snip-



1) The Bach "inconsistency" is actually an easy fix. From what he showed in the manga, a simple analysis would suggest that he can only change the future events of one target at a time. If he is focusing on Ichigo's future, he can't focus on Aizen's, Orihime's, Renji's, etc. Likewise, if he is locked into a one-on-one fight with anyone in the Narutoverse, he can alter the future of that person consistently since that is what he'd be focusing on. Now that would be a different story if he had to fight Kaguya, Sasuke, and Naruto at the same time for example. 

2) I already addressed the difference between Aizen using his illusions in my previous post. Activation time is a bitch. 

3) The arrow that took bach's power away in the end was also derived by his own power, so in the end, his own power is what took him out.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> 1) The Bach "inconsistency" is actually an easy fix. From what he showed in the manga, a simple analysis would suggest that he can only change the future events of one target at a time.


What he changes =/= What he sees.



> The arrow that took bach's power away in the end was also derived by his own power, so in the end, his own power is what took him out.



This doesn't contradict Dartg's  point.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> The Bach "inconsistency" is actually an easy fix. From what he showed in the manga, a simple analysis would suggest that he can only change the future events of one target at a time


That's only an assumption. You can find an explanation to anything if you think long enough. Does it makes sense ? Maybe. Is it actually true or confirmed ? No.


Hamaru said:


> already addressed the difference between Aizen using his illusions in my previous post.


N you really didn't .You just wanked Aizen with " LAWL God -like character " while downplaying Nardo.


Hamaru said:


> The arrow that took bach's power away in the end was also derived by his own power, so in the end, his own power is what took him out.


See what Nighty wrote.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> What he changes =/= What he sees.
> 
> 
> 
> This doesn't contradict Dartg's  point.



- He can change what he sees in front of him. I believe that, at the very least is consistent until his end, correct?

- It does because there is a difference between when he first lost his power and the second time. When Ichibei took his power away, Almighty wasn't activated. The arrow was designed to counter Almighty + any other power Bach had.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> When Ichibei took his power away, Almighty wasn't activated


Allmighty proved that it can activate on by default even if Yhwach is dead, without a soul, or even when the Allmighty itself is erased so your argument doesn't hold any water.


Hamaru said:


> The arrow was designed to counter Almighty + any other power Bach had


Allmighty countered it's own erasal and brought back Yhwach from death, not to mention the he should have seen that shit coming from a mile away. So, still inconsistent as fuck. Nothing really adds up here.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> That's only an assumption. You can find an explanation to anything if you think long enough. Does it makes sense ? Maybe. Is it actually true or confirmed ? No.
> 
> N you really didn't .You just wanked Aizen with " LAWL God -like character " while downplaying Nardo.
> 
> See what Nighty wrote.



- Its called putting a limitation on Almighty that would be supported by what was shown by the manga. It makes more sense than your attempt of trying to throw Almighty out altogether because you don't want Bach to beat-up your beloved verse.

- Is Aizen not those things that I stated? Does he not posses the Hog? Feel free to point out where I was wrong. Sasuke having to activate MS is no different than Ichigo having to activate Bankai, which means he'd be fucked along with everyone else. 

- What Nigthly wrote means what exactly? It's your little glimmer of hope to tossing Almighty out the window so that the Narutoverse can bag the win? Cry more.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Allmighty proved that it can activate on by default even if Yhwach is dead, without a soul, or even when the Allmighty itself is erased so your argument doesn't hold any water.
> 
> Allmighty countered it's own erasal and brought back Yhwach from death, not to mention the he should have seen that shit coming from a mile away. So, still inconsistent as fuck. Nothing really adds up here.



Death does not = loss of Almighty, which means he can still use it.

Arrow = Goodbye Almighty, which means he COULDN'T USE its abilities.

Not seeing the arrow lines up with him only being able to see the future of whatever is in front of him, doesn't it?


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 28, 2017)

Yourwhack's character will forever be ridiculouslay wanked

The Bleach fanboys should head to this one forum I'm a part of. They're in agreement that Yhwach can negate nearly every hax & that he can always revive himself no matter what


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Death does not = loss of Almighty, which means he can still use it


Yeah, you didn't invalidate my point in the slightest.


Hamaru said:


> Arrow = Goodbye Almighty, which means he COULDN'T USE its abilities


Allmighty was goodbye-ed before. Still came back.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> The Bleach fanboys should head to this one forum I'm a part of. They're in agreement that Yhwach can negate nearly every hax & that he can always revive himself no matter what


They're everywhere. Divell said that Yhwach can lolnope any kind of mindfuck. So...yeah...
It's really our fault because we're wasting brain cells and time with them..


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Yeah, you didn't invalidate my point in the slightest.
> 
> *Allmighty was goodbye-ed before. Still came back.*



Post a scan of this, in the context of this conversion, and I'll shut up.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> 1) The Bach "inconsistency" is actually an easy fix. From what he showed in the manga, a simple analysis would suggest that he can only change the future events of one target at a time. If he is focusing on Ichigo's future, he can't focus on Aizen's, Orihime's, Renji's, etc. Likewise, if he is locked into a one-on-one fight with anyone in the Narutoverse, he can alter the future of that person consistently since that is what he'd be focusing on. Now that would be a different story if he had to fight Kaguya, Sasuke, and Naruto at the same time for example.



What does this even mean, "focus on one person's future at a time?"

Chapter 677:

Yhwach: "Ichigo... You've made one fatal miscalculation... The future, you see... does not wind down a single road. The future... diverges from a single point in time... like countless grains of sand scattering in the winds..."

Yhwach: "Now, if you could see them... each and every individual grain of sand would be considered a "future." Which means, there are as many "possibilities" as there are grains of sand..."

Yhwach: "Ichigo... I'd like to talk on the subject of "hope." "The future can be changed." That is wide held truth. A marvellous truth, full of "hope." "You will grow and mature during battle." Another splendid statement... that is also filled with "hope." But... the truth is, to "change the future"... means nothing more... than to jump from one grain of sand to another."

Yhwach: "And as I watch over them all from up on high... I can see every last grain of sand clearly."


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Yhwach's ability at the most fundamental level is the ability to "change the future." Which, as he describes there in that statement means that he can jump from one grain of sand to another. The difference is that Yhwach can

a) see where he's jumping to
b) jump to any of them rather than just the ones that are physically possible.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You're saying I need to provide something concrete when I'm providing exactly what the manga has shown


The manga showed repteated inconsistnecies you backwater invertebrate but you insinst that they are not by conveniently finding unconfirmed explanations to them.


Hamaru said:


> Shikai Aizen's illusions would put his "genjutsu" skills up with the best of them in the Narutoverse minus the obvious IT


Mindfuck has multiple effects and methods and ways it works. While KS's illusions are impressive in their own right, they lack the finesse and the raw hax that something like Koto or Izanami bring to the table. Those examples are not necesary in the first place since Yhwach has zero feats to mindfuck in general. Beacuse he lacks feats, any genjutsu could potentially work on him.


Hamaru said:


> My reading abilities are fine


Apparently not since you didn't understand Nighty's post which was simple enough to read and to the point.


Hamaru said:


> your desperate attempt of doing away with Almighty is the only real problem


I'm not attemtping to do anything. I'm just stating why i personally don't see it as viable in VS debates. Not my fault you got butthurt and jumped the gun.


Hamaru said:


> limitations on it based on what the manga has shown, it isn't enough for you because its still more than enough to beat your beloved verse, so you cry about it and want it done away with completely.


And i don't understand what your problem is .. It's how i see things. You don't have  to agree you know. You can continue to be as biassed as you want. Personally, i have nothing more to add to this.


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## ACE NITRO (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Sasuke's MS genjutsu isn't on the level of Aizen's.


I said rinnegan sasuke


Hamaru said:


> Aizen is a god-like character who is on another plane of existence than 99% of the Bleachverse, which effects his overall power, including his illusions.


Rinnegan sasuke is also a son of a god has the power of a god and defeated a goddess doesn't mean his mind fuck is better than that of professor x who is just a mutant human


Hamaru said:


> Aizen possesses the wish granting Hog, which can also amplify his power.


To an unquantifiable extent that doesn't make his mind fuck better than sasuke


Hamaru said:


> Aizen has the benefit of being able to use his illusions without any clear activation actions, while Sasuke has to activate MS, which is an issue for the same reasons activating bankai was an issue for Ichigo (i.e. Bach would see the future threat of MS and destroy it in one of the many futures, like he did with Ichigo's bankai).


Except that this is rinnegan sasuke and his rinnegan is almost always active so he doesn't need any "activation" to mind fuck yhwach like he did the nine bijjus and then turn him into a chibaku tensei


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Aizen doesn't have mindfuck, how could he be better Sasuke to begin with?


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> What does this even mean, "focus on one person's future at a time?"
> 
> Chapter 677:
> 
> ...



Unless we think Bach is Allseeing, it doesn't change the fact that his Almighty, even within his own statement would be limited to the future of a limited number of people at the same time. By that, what I'm saying is this...When fighting Ichigo, there may be a million ways for that fight/future to play-out. Bach has the ability to turn any one of those futures into a reality; however, he'd still be limited to what he could see, and what he can "see" depends on his focus.

An example would be when he was fighting Ichigo while Orihime was on the side-line. After he activated his Almighty, Ichigo pointed out that Bach's Almighty must have some weakness because he had to defend with this sword, then Bach starts beating Ichigo's ass:


However, while Bach is constantly changing Ichigo's future during their fight, he is ignoring Orihime, which allowed her to stop one of his sword strikes for a moment, until Bach bypassed it with Almighty:


Like the arrow, Orihime's shield came from behind. So if Bach isn't looking your direction, he can't alter your future.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> So if Bach isn't looking your direction, he can't alter your future.


Hope you realize how dumb this sounds when Yhwach has eyes all over his body.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Not to mention that the future isn't an isolated event.

If he was seeing Ichigo's future. He'd also have seen Orihime was going to protect him and his attack would fail.

What you're saying makes no sense.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Unless we think Bach is Allseeing, it doesn't change the fact that his Almighty, even within his own statement would be limited to the future of a limited number of people at the same time. By that, what I'm saying is this...When fighting Ichigo, there may be a million ways for that fight/future to play-out. Bach has the ability to turn any one of those futures into a reality; however, he'd still be limited to what he could see, and what he can "see" depends on his focus.
> 
> An example would be when he was fighting Ichigo while Orihime was on the side-line. After he activated his Almighty, Ichigo pointed out that Bach's Almighty must have some weakness because he had to defend with this sword, then Bach starts beating Ichigo's ass:
> 
> ...



>yhwach says he can see every future
>yeah but what if he couldn't tho

so yhwach was lying about how his abilities work in your theory? How do you fit this together with also taking him at face value on how his powers actually work?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

and this whole idea makes literally no sense to begin with because "ichigo's future" is not a fucking thing

yhwach sees entire timelines, not "ichigo's bit of the timeline" or something equally bogus.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

ACE NITRO said:


> I said rinnegan sasuke
> 
> Rinnegan sasuke is also a son of a god has the power of a god and defeated a goddess doesn't mean his mind fuck is better than that of professor x who is just a mutant human
> 
> ...



What I'm saying, which seemed to have gotten missed due to the "god-like" talk is that before Aizen's evolution, his illusions were already top notch by Bleach and Narutoverse standards. The hog and his evolution improved on that, so the idea that Sasuke can just casually cast any genjutu and win is nonsense. It is largely dependent on the TYPE of genjutsu Sasuke or anyone else uses. 



Sablés said:


> Aizen doesn't have mindfuck, how could he be better Sasuke to begin with?


I was comparing quality of illusions and its ability against Bach.


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## ACE NITRO (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> He was not but Atleast aizen has a feat of destroying the cleaner that also manipulates time to make an argument for him controlling the sight of the futures.


Using a vague ass feat like that to amp aizens illusions when there is no correlation between two them is reaching. even if we take the feat seriously we have no idea how strong the cleaner is no legit feat from it. Its definition of time manipulation is to vague to be usable in the battledome.
To be honest giving yhwach resistance to mind manipulation is dumb when he fell for the first mind fuck technique he encountered so he gets beaten by anyone who has a sufficient mind fuck technique and is in his speed range or simply gets blown to bits by characters that are stronger than him.


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

ACE NITRO said:


> I said rinnegan sasuke
> 
> Rinnegan sasuke is also a son of a god has the power of a god and defeated a goddess doesn't mean his mind fuck is better than that of professor x who is just a mutant human
> 
> ...


Sasuke mindfucking the bijuus wasn't that impressive. He bound them with genjutsu and then again with chibaku tensei. Then he looks left only to see Yhwach sitting there.That has literally no way of taking out Yhwach.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> >yhwach says he can see every future
> >yeah but what if he couldn't tho
> 
> so yhwach was lying about how his abilities work in your theory? How do you fit this together with also taking him at face value on how his powers actually work?





Nighty the Mighty said:


> and* this whole idea makes literally no sense to begin with because "ichigo's future" is not a fucking thing*
> 
> yhwach sees entire timelines, not "ichigo's bit of the timeline" or something equally bogus.




This is where you're mixing everything up into something that it isn't. Just because Bach can see *into* every timeline does NOT mean that he sees everything happening within the time-line unless he is all-seeing, which we know he isn't. Even while looking into the time-lines, he still has to choose what to pay attention to in the time-line. In his battle, the only person he cared about was Ichigo, so when looking into the time-lines he didn't give two shits about what everyone else was doing, which left small openings.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> The hog and his evolution improved on that


That is unquantifiable.


Hamaru said:


> so the idea that Sasuke can just casually cast any genjutu and win is nonsense


No it's not. Yhach fell for KS. Is there a reason to believe that he wouldn't fall for any Nardo genjutsu ? No, because he doesen't have the feats to show for it. But this is just another "baseless claim" amiritie ?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Your idea still makes no sense

even if he was looking forwards at ichigo he should still see the arrow sticking out of his chest or the shield IN FRONT OF HIM


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

ACE NITRO said:


> Using a vague ass feat like that to amp aizens illusions when there is no correlation between two them is reaching. even if we take the feat seriously we have no idea how strong the cleaner is no legit feat from it. Its definition of time manipulation is to vague to be usable in the battledome.
> To be honest giving yhwach resistance to mind manipulation is dumb when he fell for the first mind fuck technique he encountered so he gets beaten by anyone who has a sufficient mind fuck technique and is in his speed range or simply gets blown to bits by characters that are stronger than him.


Except reiatsu types directly affect how the zanpakuto works. And even still it's less reaching than saying that Sasuke can somehow manipulate how a guy sees all the futures.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Except reiatsu types directly affect how the zanpakuto works. And even still it's less reaching than saying that Sasuke can somehow manipulate how a guy sees all the futures


Did you just equate Allmighty with Yhwach's mind ?


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Did you just equate Allmighty with Yhwach's mind ?


No I'm saying Sasuke has no way of manipulating how Yhwach sees the futures. He will see whatever sasuke is going to try to do, ever.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> No I'm saying Sasuke has no way of manipulating how Yhwach sees the futures.


He doesn't need to. He just needs to mind fuck his mind.


Keishin said:


> He will see whatever sasuke is going to try to do, ever


Like he saw the arrow ? Or like he saw KS ?
And even if he could see it he would have to know how to get out of that... and again we come back to his lack of feats.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Hope you realize how dumb this sounds when Yhwach has eyes all over his body.


Not at all times. Look at the scan I posted, and look at the scan where he is hit with the arrow. He wasn't covered with eyes in those two moments. 



Sablés said:


> Not to mention that the future isn't an isolated event.
> 
> If he was seeing Ichigo's future. He'd also have seen Orihime was going to protect him and his attack would fail.
> 
> What you're saying makes no sense.


No. Bach said that the future can change from evolving during a fight and other things; however, if something like that did happen, he'd see the new futures. That means there are openings.



Nighty the Mighty said:


> Your idea still makes no sense
> 
> even if he was looking forwards at ichigo he should still see the arrow sticking out of his chest or the shield IN FRONT OF HIM



If he was looking at Ichigo's time-line, how the hell would he see the arrow coming from behind if he isn't covered in eyes at the moment? 

As for the shield, even if he seen it as a possible future, there was no guarantee that it was going to happen, and since he had the ability to make the shield pointless, there was no reason to change that potential future anyway.


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> He doesn't need to. He just needs to mind fuck his mind.
> 
> Like he saw the arrow ? Or like he saw KS ?
> And even if he could see it he would have to know how to get out of that... and again we come back to his lack of feats.


What does KS that is actually able to fuck his sight or the Arrow have to do with Sasuke's lack of feats of dealing with a guy with Yhwach's powers?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Keishin said:


> What does KS that is actually able to fuck his sight or the Arrow have to do with Sasuke's lack of feats of dealing with a guy with Yhwach's powers


Fuck off.
This is just sad....


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Not at all times. Look at the scan I posted, and look at the scan where he is hit with the arrow. He wasn't covered with eyes in those two moments.


He wasn't covered with eyes when he attacked Ichigo either. Fucker was blind.



Hamaru said:


> No. Bach said that the future can change from evolving during a fight and other things; however, if something like that did happen, he'd see the new futures. That means there are openings.



>Yhwach says he can see every future so evolving means jack
>Yhwach only sees Ichigo's future
>Ichigo has a giant ass shield blocking the way
>Yhwach doesn't see it, according to you.

This is somehow a pro argument for the second how???


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> He doesn't need to. He just needs to mind fuck his mind.
> 
> Like he saw the arrow ? Or like he saw KS ?
> *And even if he could see it he would have to know how to get out of that*... and again we come back to his lack of feats.


What is this even based on? If there is a future where he gets caught in a genjutsu, he'd just prevent the genjutsu from happening. He has the stats and range to do so. 

Also KS is strong enough to change you perception of time, effects all the senses for years, and changed what Bach could see in the future. Those are feats for Aizen, not a token of hope for Narutoverse.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> As for the shield, even if he seen it as a possible future, there was no guarantee that it was going to happen, and *since he had the ability to make the shield pointless, there was no reason to change that potential future anyway.*


Then why are you using Yhwach not being able to see Orihime's advance as an argument?

You're contradicting yourself every other sentence.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> He wasn't covered with eyes when he attacked Ichigo either. Fucker was blind.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) Who says he needs to be covered in eyes when he is looking your direction? You said it was dumb that he'd need to be looking in your direction because he is covered in eyes. I pointed out that he wasn't covered in eyes when he was Orihime and Ishida provided support behind his back. Anything beyond this is arguing for the sake of an argument on that topic. 

2) I did NOT say that he didn't see that future happening. I said that even if he seen it as one of the futures, it wasn't a big enough issue for him to change that possibility since he could work around it, which he did.


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> What is this even based on? If there is a future where he gets caught in a genjutsu, he'd just prevent the genjutsu from happening


Based on the fact that he is featless agains mindfuck. Seriously, you can ignore it as much as you like, that doesn't change the fact it's true.


Hamaru said:


> Also KS is strong enough to change you perception of time, effects all the senses for years, and changed what Bach could see in the future. Those are feats for Aizen, not a token of hope for Narutoverse


.... It's like i'm talking to a wall.
You don't have the mental capability to understand that as long as someone is featless against something, especially Hax, that means that he is succesptible to it. You don't have to have Aizen's KS to affect him. You just have to be able to mind fuck him. KS is just the example that he can't deal with that crap.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> 1) Who says he needs to be covered in eyes when he is looking your direction? You said it was dumb that he'd need to be looking in your direction because he is covered in eyes. I pointed out that he wasn't covered in eyes when he was Orihime and Ishida provided support behind his back. Anything beyond this is arguing for the sake of an argument on that topic.


You're the one who claimed the only futures Yhwach can see are ones that meet his line of sight. This is both asinine because a) he's riddled with them all over his body b) he's blatantly shown to activate his ability without them.



> 2) I did NOT say that he didn't see that future happening. I said that even if he seen it as one of the futures, it wasn't a big enough issue for him to change that possibility since he could work around it, which he did.



Then you no longer have an argument, because you've left whether or not Yhwach acts in an efficient manner up to personal preference.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Then why are you using Yhwach not being able to see Orihime's advance as an argument?
> 
> You're contradicting yourself every other sentence.



You're completely missing the point... He was paying attention to ICHIGO, so Orihime's shield supplying support was only one possible outcome in ICHIGO's future. There was no guarantee that Orihime was going to use the shield compared to all of the other ways things could have played out. 

What I'm saying is that if Bach was to put his focus on Orihime, he'd know what her future actions would entail with certainty; however, that would take his eye off of Ichigo, who was the real threat. 

Was there a shield for Ichigo in one of his futures? Yes. 

Does that mean Bach knew every action Orihime would have taken from behind? No.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Based on the fact that he is featless agains mindfuck. Seriously, you can ignore it as much as you like, that doesn't change the fact it's true.
> 
> .... It's like i'm talking to a wall.
> You don't have the mental capability to understand that as long as someone is featless against something, especially Hax, that means that he is succesptible to it. You don't have to have Aizen's KS to affect him. You just have to be able to mind fuck him. KS is just the example that he can't deal with that crap.



You take a lot of personal shots at people for someone who fits your mental capability statement more than anyone posting. I'll put it to you like this, how would a jutsu matter if they NEVER get the chance to use it?


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You take a lot of personal shots at people for someone who fits your mental capability statement more than anyone posting


You got like 4 people correcting the shit you are spouting. Nuff said.


Hamaru said:


> how would a jutsu matter if they NEVER get the chance to use it?


Elaborate.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Y*ou're the one who claimed the only futures Yhwach can see are ones that meet his line of sight.* This is both asinine because a) *he's riddled with them all over his body* b) he's blatantly shown to activate his ability without them.
> 
> 
> 
> Then you no longer have an argument, because you've left whether or not Yhwach acts in an efficient manner up to personal preference.



A) Except he didn't have them all over his body, so its an asinine rebuttal. 

B) Show me ONE scan of him using Almighty against someone outside his line of site without all the eyes on him. The only thing you'll find is when he blew Ichibei away, which was a situation where he was fully focused on that fight until the AM activation. 

C) Except Bach DOES fight based on his personal preference. He deemed Ichigo's bankai and hallow transformation a treat, so he broke them. In the case of Ichigo's bankai, he broke it immediately, consistently. He didn't see anything Orhime could do as a threat so he left her alone. He didn't see Renji as a threat, so he didn't kill him instantly. Those are all choices he made based on what he seen as a treat vs. what he didn't.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> how me ONE scan of him using Almighty against someone outside his line of site without all the eyes on him


Chapter 678

pages 11, 12, 13 and 14 

which hilariously also involve Orihime shielding Ichigo. Not like I have to prove any of this, because I'm going with the not-retarded explanation and following how is ability is described (and later contradicted) on paper, without any extraneous input.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> You got like 4 people correcting the shit you are spouting. Nuff said.
> 
> Elaborate.



Nobody is "correcting" me as they've made no good points to counter the scans provided. 

Bach IC destroyed Ichigo's bankai consistently before Ichigo was ever able to use it because he knew it was a threat to his life. In turn, if Bach is fighting someone with a genjutsu that could end him, why wouldn't he give them the Ichigo treatment where he never allows himself to be placed in a situation to be caught in the genjutsu? 

Example...

If he is fighting Sasuke, why not use a future where Sasuke starts the fight off in base, using Susanoo, using Ama, etc? Why not select a future where he destroyed Sasuke's eyes before he activated a genjutsu? 

Those are options he'd have because it is within his ability. It'll be different if he was fighting someone like Superman, in which case there is no future he could chose to change the fact that he'd die.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> If he was looking at Ichigo's time-line, how the hell would he see the arrow coming from behind if he isn't covered in eyes at the moment?
> 
> As for the shield, even if he seen it as a possible future, there was no guarantee that it was going to happen, and since he had the ability to make the shield pointless, there was no reason to change that potential future anyway.



we just established that "ichigo's timeline" doesn't exist


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Chapter 678
> 
> pages 11, 12, 13 and 14
> 
> which hilariously also involve Orihime shielding Ichigo. Not like I have to prove any of this, because I'm going with the not-retarded explanation and following how is ability is described (and later contradicted) on paper, without any extraneous input.



He is looking in Ichigo's direction in all of those Sables.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> we just established that "ichigo's timeline" doesn't exist


You know what I mean by that. Obviously I'm saying he is looking at what is going on with Ichigo among all the time-lines, not that the time-line itself belongs to Ichigo.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> He is looking in Ichigo's direction in all of those Sables.


Yes.

Without eyes

Because you know? As stupid as it sounds? He's got ink blocking them.


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## OrangePeel (Nov 28, 2017)

just ban the youwhack job (I mean yhwach ofc )


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Nobody is "correcting" me as they've made no good points to counter the scans provided.


Oh, so everyone's wrong and you're right  huh ? You're that type of "debater" huh ?


Hamaru said:


> Bach IC destroyed Ichigo's bankai consistently before Ichigo was ever able to use it because he knew it was a threat to his life.


Yes, you used this example multiple times. Too bad that this showing is contradicted by other showings like his innability to see and take care of that arrow before it reached his chest.


Hamaru said:


> In turn, if Bach is fighting someone with a genjutsu that could end him, why wouldn't he give them the Ichigo treatment where he never allows himself to be placed in a situation to be caught in the genjutsu


1. Because Sauce  is > Ichigo and Yhwach
2. Because contradicting showings in the manga
3. Because since he dosen't have feats resisting genjutsu or mind fuck in general, such a future might no existst, as was demonstrated when KS acutally affeced him.


Hamaru said:


> Those are options he'd have because it is within his ability. It'll be different if he was fighting someone like Superman, in which case there is no future he could chose to change the fact that he'd die


Sauce is still > Yhwach stat wise even though the gap is significantly smaller now, so not really.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Yes.
> 
> Without eyes
> 
> Because you know? As stupid as it sounds? He's got ink blocking them.



You're right, that does sound stupid since it was never hinted that it blocks his original eye's line of sight.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You're right, that does sound stupid since it was never hinted that it blocks his original eye's line of sight.



I'm done


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You know what I mean by that. Obviously I'm saying he is looking at what is going on with Ichigo among all the time-lines, not that the time-line itself belongs to Ichigo.



But this logic doesn't connect

you: yhwach can only see things going on with ichigo that's why he didn't see orihime's shield
me: orihime's shield has to do with things going on with ichigo, by your own argument yhwach should have seen it

literally every piece of evidence you've cited debunks your own argument.

it's just not tenable.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You're right, that does sound stupid since it was never hinted that it blocks his original eye's line of sight.


Why wouldn't it? The black substance he throws around is opaque. He even shrouded Seireitei's dome at one point.

Not like the majority of characters even rely on their eyes to see anyhow.


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Oh, so everyone's wrong and you're right  huh ? You're that type of "debater" huh ?
> 
> Yes, you used this example multiple times. Too bad that this showing is contradicted by other showings like his innability to see and take care of that arrow before it reached his chest.
> 
> ...



1) In this case, I'm yet to be proven wrong. In general, I've admitted to being wrong several times in debates, so take that as you will. 

2) Arrow = Not in his line of sight. Until someone shows a valid contradiction to the line of sight argument, you've got nothing. 

3) Saying Sauce > Ichigo and Yhwach provides not counter to Almighty.

4) The manga doesn't contradict itself unless we pretend Bach is All-seeing, which he isn't. 

5) KS works completely different than genjutsu, unless you have a specific one in mind, which I know you don't.


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## Sablés (Nov 28, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Why wouldn't it? The black substance he throws around is opaque. He even shrouded Seireitei's dome at once point.
> 
> Not like the majority of characters even rely on their eyes to see anyhow.


the latter was the response i was expecting and would then answer with how reikaku isn't limited to what's in front of them

That line of discussion would have at least made sense.

Instead...


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## MrTeitoku (Nov 28, 2017)

In my opinion the only reason why Yhwach didn't saw that arrow is because it is made from his own power, and as such it cames from Soul King. It was stated that he coudn't see Mimihagi which is right arm of Soul King.

Well other than it being an asspull


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## TYPE-Rey (Nov 28, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> In this case, I'm yet to be proven wrong. In general, I've admitted to being wrong several times in debates, so take that as you will.


Of course you don't think so.


Hamaru said:


> Arrow = Not in his line of sight. Until someone shows a valid contradiction to the line of sight argument, you've got nothing.


Sables and Nighty already pointed out the flaws with your logic. It's a little too late for me to join that train of discussion at this point.


Hamaru said:


> Saying Sauce > Ichigo and Yhwach provides not counter to Almighty.


1. Then you shouldn't have used it as an argument.
2. You're using a double standard here. You admit Yhwach would have no chance against Supes but not against Sauce even though they are both superior in stats. What's the difference ?


Hamaru said:


> The manga doesn't contradict itself unless we pretend Bach is All-seeing, which he isn't


See above.


Hamaru said:


> KS works completely different than genjutsu, unless you have a specific one in mind, which I know you don't


That's irrelevant.


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## Keishin (Nov 28, 2017)

MrTeitoku said:


> In my opinion the only reason why Yhwach didn't saw that arrow is because it is made from his own power, and as such it cames from Soul King. It was stated that he coudn't see Mimihagi which is right arm of Soul King.
> 
> Well other than it being an asspull


He couldn't see Mimihagi but he could see the Soul King, and Mimihagi could see him. So Mimihagi had an ability to counter future sight and Yhwach made that his power too.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2017)

Sablés said:


> the latter was the response i was expecting and would then answer with how reikaku isn't limited to what's in front of them
> 
> That line of discussion would have at least made sense.
> 
> Instead...


Well, Tables?

Can you prove that blindfolds obstruct vision? 


MrTeitoku said:


> In my opinion the only reason why Yhwach didn't saw that arrow is because it is made from his own power, and as such it cames from Soul King. It was stated that he coudn't see Mimihagi which is right arm of Soul King.
> 
> Well other than it being an asspull




Maybe?


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## Hamaru (Nov 28, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> But this logic doesn't connect
> 
> you: yhwach can only see things going on with ichigo that's why he didn't see orihime's shield
> me: orihime's shield has to do with things going on with ichigo, by your own argument yhwach should have seen it
> ...


Except I DID say that Bach could see a future where the shield was used, but it wasn't worth changing. That doesn't mean he seen all of Orihime's potential actions in every time-line, it just means he seen her shield possibly showing up in one of Ichigo's possible futures.

You're suggesting that since Bach should have seen Orihime's shield in one of Ichigo's futures, it somehow suggests that he could predict all of Orihime's potential actions while fighting Ichigo, which is false.



Regicide said:


> Why wouldn't it? The black substance he throws around is opaque. He even shrouded Seireitei's dome at once point.
> 
> Not like the majority of characters even rely on their eyes to see anyhow.



The idea in itself isn't supported as his eyes provide his greatest power, so he wouldn't just block it out for shits and giggles when he finds Ichigo to be such a big threat. He also visibly follows Ichigo's movements, so no it isn't hinted at nor stated.


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2017)

Once again, you do realize that most characters in the verse neither need nor tend to rely on their eyesight in combat, yes?


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## Regicide (Nov 28, 2017)

Not to mention, the eyes show up once he starts taking Ichigo seriously anyways.


----------

