# Sasuke vs. Kurama



## Kai (Nov 19, 2013)

Setting: VOTE
Distance: 50 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions/Conditions: Sharingan Control. Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is boosted by senjutsu.

They once met within Naruto's mind, but now they both fight each other at full power. Who takes this?


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## RedChidori (Nov 19, 2013)

Kagutsuchi arrows and swords should give Sasuke the win. If that fails he loses horribly.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 19, 2013)

Super TBB GG


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## Nikushimi (Nov 19, 2013)

Enton Magatama in the Kyuubi's eyes.


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## Kyu (Nov 19, 2013)

They kill each other.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 19, 2013)

If Sasuke skewers the Kyuubi with Enton projectiles (before each Bijuudama is created), he should be able to kill the beast rather casually.


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## Triggenism (Nov 19, 2013)

Sasuke burns down the fox to ashes.


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## Bonly (Nov 19, 2013)

Sasuke hits him with Ama and calls it a day


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 19, 2013)

Amaterasu , enton sword, enton magatama take out kyuubi.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 19, 2013)

LOL.

I'm not gonna even bother.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 20, 2013)

Amaterasu is roared off or away, along with Sasuke's Susano and his weapons. 

He can't beat Kurama. This is a fucking joke lol


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## ueharakk (Nov 20, 2013)

Stalemate or Kurama wins.

If Kurama just stands there and allows Sasuke the luxury of leveling up his susanoo, Sasuke fires enton attacks Kurama blocks with his tails or gets body shots.  Kurama nukes him and his susanoo with super bijuudama and eventually dies to the flames.

Else if they both start attacking at the same time, Kurama roars sasuke before he can form anything significant, charges a TBB, or smashes him since the distance is only 50 meters.


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## PopoTime (Nov 20, 2013)

Kurama roars, Sasuke is sent flying.

Kurama follows up with Continuous Bijuudama, Sasuke is done.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 20, 2013)

Is this a serious thread? EMS Sasuke obliterates Kurama, with or without the support of Senjutsu.

We've seen SM Naruto's FRS doing a number on Kurama, knocking him to the floor and damaging him so much that he couldn't get back up for some time. EMS Sasuke's Enton: Susano'o Kagutsuchi was comparable in size and power to KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS, which is clearly on a whole other level from the SM FRS in terms of size, and obviously strength too. The combination of the two jutsu also would've downed the fricking Juubi in its 3rd form (something that completely shits on Kurama in terms of durability) in a minute or less, if not for its splitting ability, something that Kurama also does not possess.

We've also seen that Kurama's Biju Dama literally can't do squat to a Perfect Susano'o, something that Sasuke possesses at this point in time. It's possible that Kurama's Super Biju Dama (the one he attempted using on SM Naruto after having most of his chakra drained) could overcome the defense of this Susano'o, but very unlikely considering that Sasuke's Susano'o, unlike Madara's, also seems to possess a shield that is not much unlike Itachi's Yata no Kagami in nature, that is, if it isn't the Yata no Kagami itself.

A single sword slash from Madara's Perfect Susano'o cut through mountain-sized meteorites and the actual mountains behind it like butter. Considering that it's made of the exact same material as the rest of the Susano'o (which was solid enough to endure a direct hit from Kyuubi's Biju Dama without retaining any damage), Sasuke could simply hack Kurama to pieces using this blade alone. The Yasaka Magatama and Enton: Yasaka Magatama are also there for a more longer-ranged, yet equally powerful alternative.

Even if Kurama fires off a Renzoku Biju Dama at  Sasuke, it's not like Sasuke can't simply block or even send them flying  back at Kurama using his sword, damaging him and taking him out instead. The Super Biju Dama would prove more troublesome, but it's also not like the Uchiha can't interrupt its formation by promptly setting Kyuubi on black flames and ruining his concentration before it is fully formed, which would also result in the sphere just going poof in his face, not unlike how KCM Datclone's Bijurasengan simply faded after he proved unable to form it properly. Susano'o arrows and Amaterasu trump any type of Biju Dama in overall speed.

Even if the Super Biju Dama does get fully formed (and I very much doubt that Sasuke is going to give Kurama the time to get off such an incredibly destructive technique just like that), a quick Amaterasu could still ruin Kurama's concentration enough to make him mis-fire the Super Biju Dama into the sky or something. Keep in mind MS Sasuke's Amaterasu alone effectively one-shotted the Hachibi, so logically (and going by feats) EMS Sasuke's Amaterasu/Enton is going to ruin Kurama for sure. 

Going by feats, Sasuke shouldn't even need PS, considering that his regular Susano'o Enton rivalled KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS in strength, with the latter being more than powerful enough to bring even Kurama himself to his knees. A PS-version of that same Enton would unquestionably destroy Kurama, and adding Senjutsu to the mix ensures that there will be nothing left of the nine-tailed fox but bloody ashes. This is a rape, in Sasuke's favor.

Also, SM Susano'o Sasuke (not SM Perfect Susano'o Sasuke, mind you) managed to survive a hit from Juubi Obito's black hands of doom, a stronger version of the same chakra arms he used to bust out of the four Hokages' combined barrier, a barrier which canonically tanked the 3rd Form Juubi's country-level Biju Dama - which, in turn, completely shits on anything and everything that Kurama has ever done by itself, be it at half power or at full power. With SM, the amount of shit-stomping that Kurama receives is unimaginable. It's very strange that people still overhype the demon fox to such a ludicrous degree, in spite of Sasuke's amazing performance against Juubi and Juubi Obito - two opponents that make the Kyuubi look like a insect (as Madara also confirmed) when it comes to destructive power, speed and durability. 
*
@Ueherakk:* Kurama _never, ever_ starts a fight by using his Super Biju Dama, and it also takes Kurama a significant amount of time to even get the jutsu going - the same cannot be said for Sasuke and Susano'o. Sasuke has actually used Susano'o as his opening move in a lot of fights, forming it in complete stages right from the beginning of the battle. We've even seen Sasuke form the Perfect Susano'o even right after the one he was originally using got destroyed, and it's not like he can't simply skip useless Susano'o stages or anything if necessary, as evident from his fights against Kakashi, Juubi and the White Zetsu clones. This is Sasuke's fight and victory.


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## ueharakk (Nov 20, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> *
> @Ueherakk:* Kurama _never, ever_ starts a fight by using his Super Biju Dama, and it also takes Kurama a significant amount of time to even get the jutsu going - the same cannot be said for Sasuke and Susano'o. Sasuke has actually used Susano'o as his opening move in a lot of fights, forming it in complete stages right from the beginning of the battle. We've even seen Sasuke form the Perfect Susano'o even right after the one he was originally using got destroyed, and it's not like he can't simply skip useless Susano'o stages or anything if necessary, as evident from his fights against Kakashi, Juubi and the White Zetsu clones. This is Sasuke's fight and victory.


I never said Kurama starts the fight using his super bijuudama.  If he feels pushed, extremely angry and put into a desperate situation, then he uses it and that's pretty much what getting hit by enton will do to it.  

Kurama does however start fights with both chakra roar, physical attacks and bijuudama, so those are all viable options against sasuke before he uses PS.  

Also some other points that you bring up that I don't agree with:

1) Kurama's bijuudama can't to squat against PS.  
I don't think this is true because of the following:
- Madara's PS was in the process of leveling up when it took the dama thus any damage sustained would have to have been repaired in order to become a complete PS
- Madara's PS didn't take the dama directly, it blocked the blast with its swords and the susanoo itself took the blast radius.  He'd have to take a direct hit like bee and come out of it unscathed in order for that to be true.

2) Sasuke's PS = Madara's PS
- Sasuke has coated BSM Naruto who's about as big as 50% Kurama.  That doesn't mean that he's able to use a PS large enough to coat 100% Kurama.

3) Sasuke's PS has Madara's mountain-range cutting swords
- his sword hasn't shown that ability and doesn't look like madara's, don't see why it would get it

4) Chou oodama FRS = enton susanoo kagutsuchi therefore ESK scales to the damage SM rasenshuriken does
- The techniques are overall equals, but they aren't interchangeable
- Enton Susanoo kagutsuchi's initial attack power is *embarrassingly weak* even when compared to oodama rasengan, the reason why it's Chou oodama FRS's equal is because of its hax in that over time it'll do the same or more damage than Chou oodama FRS to its target.
Thus how long it takes to do that damage to kurama will determine how long kurama can keep on fighting for before it's incapped from the damage.


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## Bansai (Nov 20, 2013)

No Senjutsu needed here. Sasuke wins this for sure.


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## The World (Nov 20, 2013)

lol as if Susano-O arrows or Amaterasu gonna stop a full powered Kyuubi from blowing his ass to Mars


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## The World (Nov 20, 2013)

And for the 100th time Sasuke's "Perfect" Susano-O isn't the same as Madara's 

If anything it's only shown to be Semi-Perfect and inferior to Mads one used against the 5 Kage


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## Raiken (Nov 20, 2013)

So this is basically:
Current EMS Sasuke + Juugo's Senjutsu VS 100% Kurama?

It's a pretty close match, but I believe Juugo might be that tipping point for Sasuke.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 20, 2013)

This is all that happens to Sasuke:
*embarrassingly weak*

And Kurama never lets up pounding him.

You people just don't GET the size differences do you.


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## Brooks (Nov 20, 2013)

Enton Magatama GG....bye bye foxxy


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I never said Kurama starts the fight using his super bijuudama.  If he feels pushed, extremely angry and put into a desperate situation, then he uses it and that's pretty much what getting hit by enton will do to it.



If Kurama gets hit by Enton, he's going to be suffering from so much pain that he isn't going to be making any Biju Dama, any time soon. Gyuki also got hit by Amaterasu and was clearly in a desperate situation, yet did he make a Biju Dama? No, he didn't, he just scurried around while screaming in pain. Why? Because he couldn't, because the black flames were so damn painful. I'm sorry, but you're highly overestimating Kurama if you're suggesting the opposite.



ueharakk said:


> Kurama does however start fights with both chakra roar, physical attacks and bijuudama, so those are all viable options against sasuke before he uses PS.



Except for the fact that Sasuke can bring up PS faster than Kurama can use any of those things. I don't see how a chakra roar can possibly do anything to Sasuke, as he can get Susano'o up right before he is sent crashing into the ground by the ultrasound blast. We've seen Itachi put up a Susano'o fast enough to defend him from Kirin (which is faster than anything and everything Kurama has displayed), and Sasuke, by virtue of having a superior Sharingan, has even better reflexes. He even reacted to Juubi Obito, who is miles faster than Kurama is.



ueharakk said:


> Also some other points that you bring up that I don't agree with:
> 
> 1) Kurama's bijuudama can't to squat against PS.
> I don't think this is true because of the following:
> ...



I don't quite get what you're saying. What difference does it make if Madara's PS blocks the Biju Dama with its swords or its body? I mean, come on, man - the swords and the rest of PS are made of the exact same thing! If anything, the body of Susano'o is arguably more solid than the weapons it uses. If not, then Tsunade should've been able to send Madara's Yasaka Magatama right through his Susano'o ribcage and take him out.

If Madara's Perfect Susano'o tanked the Kyuubi's Biju Dama while leveling up, that only makes its durability all the more impressive. 



ueharakk said:


> 2) Sasuke's PS = Madara's PS
> - Sasuke has coated BSM Naruto who's about as big as 50% Kurama.  That doesn't mean that he's able to use a PS large enough to coat 100% Kurama.



Are you kidding me? The loss in size was only temporary for Kurama, if you consider some important points. Gamabunta and 100% Kurama were roughly about the same size in Kushina's flashback, and Gamabunta is also about the same size as the Shukaku. Shukaku is quite clearly about the same size as the Hachibi. The Hachibi, who in turn, is about the same height as BM Naruto, who has no reason to be taller than Kurama.

Another important thing to remember is that Kurama became anorexic right after Naruto sucked out a large amount of his chakra, yet after receiving some of Naruto's own chakra, Kurama was back to normal again. It seems that losing chakra only seems to have a temporary effect on the being's physical appearance, kind of like how Chouji's size and weight alternate depending on the level of chakra he is molding, and what not.

Madara's PS, at full height, is undoubtedly a lot bigger than your so-called '100% Kurama'. The only reason for him using a smaller version of PS is so that it could completely cover and armor the beast, as if he had used his full-sized version, it wouldn't have been much different from sticking a cockroach into an adult male's T-shirt with the intent of having the T-shirt act as a defense for said cockroach. It would've been awkward.

Madara's PS has been calculated to be about 1 km+ in height, IIRC. PS >>> 100% Kurama in size.



ueharakk said:


> 3) Sasuke's PS has Madara's mountain-range cutting swords
> - his sword hasn't shown that ability and doesn't look like madara's, don't see why it would get it



So who cares if Sasuke's PS Swords don't look like Madara's? And who cares if they haven't shown that ability? The main point is that Sasuke DOES have the same PS as Madara, just because his swords look a bit different doesn't take away from their power at all. For all we know, they could be even stronger than Madara's blades, but at this point it's most logical to conclude that they are equal in might.

At this point, it looks like you're grasping on straws in order to give Kurama the victory.



ueharakk said:


> 4) Chou oodama FRS = enton susanoo kagutsuchi therefore ESK scales to the damage SM rasenshuriken does
> - The techniques are overall equals, but they aren't interchangeable
> - Enton Susanoo kagutsuchi's initial attack power is *embarrassingly weak* even when compared to oodama rasengan, the reason why it's Chou oodama FRS's equal is because of its hax in that over time it'll do the same or more damage than Chou oodama FRS to its target.
> Thus how long it takes to do that damage to kurama will determine how long kurama can keep on fighting for before it's incapped from the damage.



Who cares if its initial attack power is 'embarrassingly weak'? It only takes a few seconds or so for any version of Enton to deal serious damage to a target, and the combination of Enton and KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS made even the 3rd Form Juubi (who is miles ahead of Kurama in all aspects, including durability) scream like a bitch, out of pain. It would've certainly destroyed the thing, if not for the Juubi's splitting powers - something that Kurama, yet again, clearly does NOT possess. And Enton, I repeat, made up at least half of that jutsu's power. So there's no way in hell the Kyuubi, which is like a bug compared to the Juubi, could possibly survive it.


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## Stermor (Nov 21, 2013)

can i just say the idee that the kyuubi won't be able to fire bijuudama;s while on fire is completly unfounded and stupid... 

remember nagato had no problems useing jutsu's while on fire... 

then we have Ei just ignoring the amaterasu for a while... 

then we have the hachibee using his mind and jutsu's to fool sasuke while on fire. 

and hte thing is we are not even sure if bijuu really care about amaterasu.. since the hachibee who cryed out in pain faked his demise. so why not also fake the pain(no way to know for sure). 

but the juubi also survived his gaint rasenshuriken flamy thing without damage.. 

anyway there is way more going for the bijuu just roaring it off or just ignoring it till bijuudamas destroys his opponent.. then bijuu actually getting hurt from it...


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> can i just say the idee that the kyuubi won't be able to fire bijuudama;s while on fire is completly unfounded and stupid...
> 
> remember nagato had no problems useing jutsu's while on fire...
> 
> ...



I'm sorry, but you're just comparing apples and oranges here. Both Ei and Nagato have insane levels of pain tolerance, something that the tailed beasts have never been stated or even implied to possess. We've seen Kurama cry out in pain after being hit by SM Naruto's FRS, and it's pretty obvious that he wasn't faking it either. We've seen Gyuki scream out in agony after being hit by his own Biju Dama.

Also, Ei ended up losing his arm to the black flames, so just because he ignored it doesn't mean that it didn't do permanent damage to his body. The best part? Sasuke wasn't even focusing on the flames during the time they were on Ei's arm, and it's been strongly hinted several times that the key behind Amaterasu's power is focus. With focus applied, Amaterasu can rapidly obliterate fire-breathing summons and Nagato's Cerberus.

Without focus applied, Amaterasu can be survived by the likes of Karin and some fodder Samurai. As for Hachibi? It's quite possible that he may simply have been faking the feelings of pain (I believed this too, at some point), but also rather unlikely and quite honestly, a bit too much to believe. It's true that Bee faked his capture at the hands of Team Taka, but there is no real evidence that proves that he was faking the pain.

The Juubi was literally screaming like a banshee during the time it was undergoing the damage dealt by Naruto and Sasuke's combo, and clearly felt the need to split off the burning portions of its body. It's pretty obvious that had it not been for its innate ability to split and regenerate (something that neither Gyuki nor Kurama clearly possesses), it definitely would've been roasted meat sooner or later.

And I'm pretty sure the Juubi wasn't faking pain, it had no real reason to do so. Sure, Gyuki pulled off an E-Ranked jutsu (Kawarimi no Jutsu) that kids who have yet to become actual shinobi can perform without much difficulty, even while being burned by Amaterasu, but that doesn't mean he could've created a Biju Dama also while being burned by Amaterasu, as using a Biju Dama clearly takes much more skill and focus.

Also, even if Kurama can 'roar' off Amaterasu, he doesn't seem capable of using that chakra roar several times in quick succession, whereas EMS Sasuke can literally spam Amaterasu/Enton at present, and also has access to PS Sword and PS Yasaka Magatama to hit Kurama with, should Amaterasu/Enton not do the job at all. With Senjutsu factored in, though, Enton will kill Kurama before chakra roars come into play.


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## Raiken (Nov 21, 2013)

It's very possible that they'll just take each other out with Sasuke's Hax Flames and the Raw Power of the Kyuubi.


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## ueharakk (Nov 21, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> If Kurama gets hit by Enton, he's going to be suffering from so much pain that he isn't going to be making any Biju Dama, any time soon. Gyuki also got hit by Amaterasu and was clearly in a desperate situation, yet did he make a Biju Dama? No, he didn't, he just scurried around while screaming in pain. Why? Because he couldn't, because the black flames were so damn painful. I'm sorry, but you're highly overestimating Kurama if you're suggesting the opposite.


this is probably the biggest difference in our views.  Kurama has durability feats that put it on a much higher level than the hachibi, thus even if we assume Bee wasn't just putting up an act when he got amaterasu'd in order to fool sasuke, it doesn't mean that kurama would be in the same kind of pain and take the attack in the same way.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Except for the fact that Sasuke can bring up PS faster than Kurama can use any of those things. I don't see how a chakra roar can possibly do anything to Sasuke, as he can get Susano'o up right before he is sent crashing into the ground by the ultrasound blast. We've seen Itachi put up a Susano'o fast enough to defend him from Kirin (which is faster than anything and everything Kurama has displayed), and Sasuke, by virtue of having a superior Sharingan, has even better reflexes. He even reacted to Juubi Obito, who is miles faster than Kurama is.


Sure he can bring PS out faster, but he doesn't usually start the fight with PS.  




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> I don't quite get what you're saying. What difference does it make if Madara's PS blocks the Biju Dama with its swords or its body? I mean, come on, man - the swords and the rest of PS are made of the exact same thing! If anything, the body of Susano'o is arguably more solid than the weapons it uses. If not, then Tsunade should've been able to send Madara's Yasaka Magatama right through his Susano'o ribcage and take him out.


I don't see why the swords and the body would be made of the same thing, susanoo itself is made of different material with differing durability ranging from skin, muscle, bone and even shields and armor.  
The PS swords are night instantly replaced after destroyed, the body isn't.

The tsunade example would only be true if the sword broke from the impact with madara's ribcage.  If it didn't, then it was tsunade's own shortcoming in not putting enough power behind the sword swing.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> If Madara's Perfect Susano'o tanked the Kyuubi's Biju Dama while leveling up, that only makes its durability all the more impressive.


Tank = taking an attack with little to no damage.  If it's leveling up and it takes a bijuudama, and we only see it after it's leveled up, then we don't know if it tanked the dama or not since even if it took decent damage, that damage would have been repaired in order to level it up.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Are you kidding me? The loss in size was only temporary for Kurama, if you consider some important points. Gamabunta and 100% Kurama were roughly about the same size in Kushina's flashback, and Gamabunta is also about the same size as the Shukaku. Shukaku is quite clearly about the same size as the Hachibi. The Hachibi, who in turn, is about the same height as BM Naruto, who has no reason to be taller than Kurama.


I don't think so.  If you compare BM Naruto to human vs 100% Kurama to human, in nearly every single instance the human is usually about *this big* compared to kurama while* this* is the upper end for 50% Kurama vs human.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Another important thing to remember is that Kurama became anorexic right after Naruto sucked out a large amount of his chakra, yet after receiving some of Naruto's own chakra, Kurama was back to normal again. It seems that losing chakra only seems to have a temporary effect on the being's physical appearance, kind of like how Chouji's size and weight alternate depending on the level of chakra he is molding, and what not.


That actually supports my point since by that logic kurama should have shrunk instead of become emaciated, however seeing as he doesn't shrink shows that the chakra replenishing doesn't cover shrinking.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Madara's PS, at full height, is undoubtedly a lot bigger than your so-called '100% Kurama'. The only reason for him using a smaller version of PS is so that it could completely cover and armor the beast, as if he had used his full-sized version, it wouldn't have been much different from sticking a cockroach into an adult male's T-shirt with the intent of having the T-shirt act as a defense for said cockroach. It would've been awkward.


If you count his tails, 100% Kurama is significantly bigger than PS.  If you just count the body, then it's not even that much shorter if it's standing up like a human.  *Mokujin is roughly the same size as PS*, *mokujin's upper half comparable to kurama's upper half* although noticeably bulkier.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Madara's PS has been calculated to be about 1 km+ in height, IIRC. PS >>> 100% Kurama in size.


Depending on the scan you use, the hachibi can be the size of a T-rex to the size of godzilla.  the 1km+ calc was made based on the meteor and was never revisited in light of the new information about PS.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> So who cares if Sasuke's PS Swords don't look like Madara's? And who cares if they haven't shown that ability? The main point is that Sasuke DOES have the same PS as Madara, just because his swords look a bit different doesn't take away from their power at all. For all we know, they could be even stronger than Madara's blades, but at this point it's most logical to conclude that they are equal in might.


I don't think concluding that they are equal in might is the most logical.  Not when Sasuke hasn't coated something as big as 100% Kurama, not when his PS doesn't manifest 2 extra arms or 2 extra swords.  



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> At this point, it looks like you're grasping on straws in order to give Kurama the victory.


If you look at any of my BD responses regarding current EMS Sasuke, I always evaluate him in the same way and give him the same abilities this thread is no exception.   I also evaluate the sizes of BM Naruto and 100% Kurama in the same way, Kurama's durability vs enton in the same way, PS's durability against the bijuudama in the same way.  Pretty much every argument i've given is stuff that i've posted before i'm really not doing this just to give kurama the victory i'm trying to be consistent with my manga view.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Who cares if its initial attack power is 'embarrassingly weak'? It only takes a few seconds or so for any version of Enton to deal serious damage to a target, and the combination of Enton and KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS made even the 3rd Form Juubi (who is miles ahead of Kurama in all aspects, including durability) scream like a bitch, out of pain. It would've certainly destroyed the thing, if not for the Juubi's splitting powers - something that Kurama, yet again, clearly does NOT possess. And Enton, I repeat, made up at least half of that jutsu's power. So there's no way in hell the Kyuubi, which is like a bug compared to the Juubi, could possibly survive it.


Karin, the samurai, Ei, and sasuke's ribcage susanoo were burning for 'more than a few seconds' yet no serious damage was inflicted on any of them.  The combination like most combinations in naruto are greater than the sum of their parts, sure it was in pain but it never was implied that it was incapable of fighting while under the affects of that.  Sure it might have been able to destroy the thing eventually, but not before it got off some desperation moves.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 21, 2013)

From feats, Kurama wins handily. Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is his best shot of winning but it already has inferior durability and firepower compared to Kurama himself. Amaterasu and any Enton Projectiles are deflected by Kurama just roaring with enough force to destroy cities and if it comes down to grappling-Kurama has the strength to _pull himself out of Chibaku Tensei_, nothing Perfect Susano'o, not even Madara's, has done which equals or approaches that feat. Kurama blows him apart with Renkozu Bijudama and if push comes to shove, Cho Bijudama.


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## fior fior (Nov 21, 2013)

Kurama slaughters Sasuke..

Anyone who says otherwise is forgetting that Kurama swinging one of his tails is a mountain-buster, both by hype and feats. It has equal firepower to a PS, and it definitely has more mobility than that thing. One Enton arrow is practically a pinprick for Kurama.

Same Enton arrow that breaks against rocks is at most a street-buster. It won't do a thing..


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 21, 2013)

Actually, Kurama is a small country to low country destroyer, fior fior. His strongest Bijudama's (through Naruto) go from over 2 teratons all the way up to 40 teratons or more.


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## Stermor (Nov 21, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> I'm sorry, but you're just comparing apples and oranges here. Both Ei and Nagato have insane levels of pain tolerance, something that the tailed beasts have never been stated or even implied to possess. We've seen Kurama cry out in pain after being hit by SM Naruto's FRS, and it's pretty obvious that he wasn't faking it either. We've seen Gyuki scream out in agony after being hit by his own Biju Dama.
> 
> Also, Ei ended up losing his arm to the black flames, so just because he ignored it doesn't mean that it didn't do permanent damage to his body. The best part? Sasuke wasn't even focusing on the flames during the time they were on Ei's arm, and it's been strongly hinted several times that the key behind Amaterasu's power is focus. With focus applied, Amaterasu can rapidly obliterate fire-breathing summons and Nagato's Cerberus.
> 
> ...



i made a long post to respond but i lost it

anyway i don't see any real proof here at all just you explaining stuff how you think it is.. 

also kurama roar pretty much would send sasuke far enough that repeated attacks are unlikely at all.. and this is just something you believe


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## fior fior (Nov 21, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Actually, Kurama is a small country to low country destroyer, fior fior. His strongest Bijudama's (through Naruto) go from over 2 teratons all the way up to 40 teratons or more.



I was speaking strictly of a swing of the tail, but thanks for clarifying .


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 21, 2013)

Kurama blows him up with a TBB after a chakra roar erase sasuke's offense. 

Sasuke has not yet shown he can keep up with kurama's monstrous output of damage.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2013)

If Sasuke's EMS Entons could make the Juubi scream like a bitch, there is no way in hell that Kurama is surviving them for more than a couple of seconds..The funny thing is, Sasuke was using those Entons through a vastly smaller and weaker Susano'o than the one he has at present, the Perfect Susano'o. If Sasuke uses a PS-level Enton Kagutsuchi against Kurama, the monster fox is going to be burned to ashes in no time. There's no reason to believe that Kurama's pain tolerance is anything special, if FRS and Chou Odama Rasengans could make him groan and whine in pain, then I'm pretty damn sure that being constantly burned by a Juubi-hurting Amaterasu will make him cry like a bitch.

Also, I'm sorry, but to say that Kurama can shrug off damage from Perfect Susano'o is tantamount to saying that the Perfect Susano'o is inferior to Naruto's SM FRS in damage output - which, by the way, is absolute bullshit. The FRS is strong and all, but the Susano'o sword swings can destroy mountain-sized meteorites and the resultant shockwaves alone can obliterate mountains. The SM FRS doesn't even come close to that, power-wise. Only the KCM Chou Odama FRS _might_, and Sasuke rivalled that with Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi, even while using a much smaller and weaker form of Susano'o than the one he has access to at present. He can rape Kyuubi with a full-sized one now.

Who cares if Kurama can destroy small countries and what not? The Juubi is even stronger than that, _much stronger in fact_, and yet its Biju Dama was restrained and countered by the four Hokages' chakra barrier. Yet Juubi Obito effortlessly broke out of that very same barrier using  but physical force, and that too only in his initial form. A non-PS Susano'o Sasuke survived a direct hit from a _stronger form_ of that same Juubi Obito and could keep going. Here, he not only has PS but also the power of Senjutsu boosting him up. No way in hell is Kurama getting through his Susano'o here. I'm not even a Sasuke fan and I actually like Kurama a lot, but I won't deny this.

Therefore, a non-PS Susano'o Sasuke should be quite capable of tanking the Juubi's Biju Dama, and also should be more than capable of shrugging off Kurama's much weaker and smaller Biju Dama without any difficulty whatsoever, no matter how strong you guys think it is. You guys are massively overestimating a being that had its ass beaten around by SM Naruto, someone who couldn't even defeat MS Sasuke. To Ueherakk, the onus of proof is on you to prove that Susano'o actually took damage from the Biju Dama before regenerating. The fact that Susano'o was there _the entire time_ (right up until Hashirama bashed it to oblivion with Senpo: Shinsusenju) proves that it tanked the blast just fine.

Who cares if Kurama busted out of Chibaku Tensei? That's not doing shit to a Susano'o that can canonically tank a much stronger version of Kurama's strongest attack, coming from the Juubi itself. And I'm not even taking Senjutsu into account, just the durability of PS is being considered here. With a Senjutsu-boosted PS, Sasuke can casually destroy Kurama and all the other tailed beasts together - at the same time. Actually, he could do it without Senjutsu too, if he could do so well against Juubi and Juubi Obito even without Juugo's aid. I'm sorry, but you guys are acting really silly on this particular matter. Stop overestimating someone that was being owned by SM Naruto, who is <<< EMS Sasuke.


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## Csdabest (Nov 22, 2013)

Sasuke could take this wihout Senjutsu. And potentially w/o PS. But I give it to him. Sasuke dominates


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## Kazekage94 (Nov 22, 2013)

You people are crazy. Fire attacke including Amaterasu won't work considering that Naruto was able to roar away a Fireball, Kurama can surely do a lot better. Kurama can take attacks and not be affected by them. TBB is a sure win or Kurama roars Sasuke 1000 Meters in the air, and dies


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## ueharakk (Nov 22, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> To Ueherakk, the onus of proof is on you to prove that Susano'o actually took damage from the Biju Dama before regenerating.


No, i don't have an onus of proof on me to prove that susanoo actually took damage because if you look at what I typed, I didn't assert that it did in fact take damage, I only asserted that even if it did take damage it would have been repaired offpanel.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> The fact that Susano'o was there _the entire time_ (right up until Hashirama bashed it to oblivion with Senpo: Shinsusenju) proves that it tanked the blast just fine.


How? Aside from the blast radius of the first bijuudama and the shinsuusenjuu's attack, susanoo never took another attack in between.

In addition to that, the SM Naruto that fought Kurama was on a totally different level than the pain arc SM Naruto since he basically obtained indefinite SM.  Indefinite basically does to SM Naruto what edo tensei does to MS users, it completely negates one the biggest drawbacks of their techniques.  And that SM Naruto only fought 50% Kurama, Sasuke isn't fighting Yang Kurama unless the OP specifies such and there's no way that SM Naruto would have won against the beast at 100%.

And the juubi screaming just has to do with how much the technique is causing him pain, not about how much of the juubi it is eating away.  The hachibi was lit for what, an entire chapter? And yet he comes out of that technique almost scott free of any wounds.  In addition to that, the juubi was screaming at the combination of FRS and enton, not just enton alone.

Finally there's no way that the juubi's superdama is weaker than obito slamming naruto and sasuke into the ground.  If it was actually more powerful than a juubidama, it wouldn't have made a crater that could fit inside the combined bijuudama that naruto and bee fired which of course is a level below a normal juubidama which is a level below a super juubidama.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No, i don't have an onus of proof on me to prove that susanoo actually took damage because if you look at what I typed, I didn't assert that it did in fact take damage, I only asserted that even if it did take damage it would have been repaired offpanel.



So what's stopping Susano'o from repairing any damage it takes this time? Of course, Sasuke's Susano'o managed to shield him from something far stronger than the 3rd Form Juubi's Biju Dama, which in turn is several times more powerful than the combination of Kurama's and Gyuki's Biju Dama. 



ueharakk said:


> How? Aside from the blast radius of the first bijuudama and the shinsuusenjuu's attack, susanoo never took another attack in between.



Who cares? Susano'o was completely unaffected and untouched by the Biju Dama.



ueharakk said:


> In addition to that, the SM Naruto that fought Kurama was on a totally different level than the pain arc SM Naruto since he basically obtained indefinite SM.  Indefinite basically does to SM Naruto what edo tensei does to MS users, it completely negates one the biggest drawbacks of their techniques.  And that SM Naruto only fought 50% Kurama, Sasuke isn't fighting Yang Kurama unless the OP specifies such and there's no way that SM Naruto would have won against the beast at 100%.



Keep lying to yourself. If Naruto was really using an 'indefinite SM', he would have kept the toad eyes in this transformation, as opposed to his normal human eyes - we now know that Kurama's chakra can, in fact, sync with Sennin Modo. If Naruto still had SM active at the time he took in Kurama's chakra (which, according to you, had to be the case as it was 'indefinitely' on), he at least would've kept the toad eyes.

Also, even if Naruto had an indefinite SM, he would most certainly not be on a totally different level from where he would be with a more limited SM, stop exaggerating. Who cares if Sasuke isn't fighting Yang Kurama? There's no measurable difference between Yang Kurama and your so-called 100% Kurama in terms of strength. At best, 100% Kurama would only be twice as powerful as his Yang self, mathematically speaking.



ueharakk said:


> And the juubi screaming just has to do with how much the technique is causing him pain, not about how much of the juubi it is eating away.  The hachibi was lit for what, an entire chapter? And yet he comes out of that technique almost scott free of any wounds.  In addition to that, the juubi was screaming at the combination of FRS and enton, not just enton alone.



If Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi can cause the 3rd Form Juubi pain, it assuredly will destroy Kurama in seconds. The Hachibi wasn't lit on fire for an entire chapter, it was only lit on fire for a few seconds at most before Bee finally pulled out a Kawarimi no Jutsu and escaped, leaving a transformed clone in his place that continued to burn under the black flames. Who cares if FRS formed part of that attack, anyway?

The KCM Chou Odama FRS and Susano'o Enton Kagutsuchi were equal in power, that was the entire point, and even if Susano'o Enton Kagutsuchi is only half as powerful as the combination of both techniques, it's still more than powerful enough to burn the Kyuubi down. Seriously, I don't know why you're overestimating the Kyuubi so damn much. How on earth can you possibly claim it can survive something that even Juubi had trouble with? _Furthermore, why on earth are you ignoring the fact that it wasn't even Sasuke's best Susano'o Enton,_ and he can fire off _much bigger and stronger ones now?_ Seriously.



ueharakk said:


> Finally there's no way that the juubi's superdama is weaker than obito slamming naruto and sasuke into the ground.  If it was actually more powerful than a juubidama, it wouldn't have made a crater that could fit inside the combined bijuudama that naruto and bee fired which of course is a level below a normal juubidama which is a level below a super juubidama.



So are you insinuating that Obito was holding back against Naruto and Sasuke or something? 

Comparing the size of craters is simply meaningless here as Juubi Obito used up much of his strength in just squeezing the duo's chakra shrouds to nothingness while they were in the air before eventually slamming them into the ground. There's also the fact that size doesn't always equate to power. The Juubi tanked the combination of Kurama's and Gyuki's Biju Dama without retaining any damage whatsoever, and that too in its first form. Yet BM Naruto's FRS (which is much smaller than the two biju's combined Biju Dama) can cut through the 2nd Form Juubi's limbs as they're made of butter.

Kakashi's water source-empowered Suitons were huge in size, yet they failed to kill Zabuza. Do you see a Rasengan or Chidori failing to kill Zabuza, even though they're smaller in size and scale? Because I sure as hell don't. The combination of Gyuki's Biju Dama and the KN9 Allied Shinobi Forces ninja's techniques were on a much smaller scale than Kurama's Biju Dama in size alone, yet they actually damaged the 2nd Form Juubi's arms, whereas the combination of BM Naruto's Biju Dama and Gyuki's Biju Dama really did jack shit to 1st Form Juubi. There are attacks that make Biju Dama look obsolete, deal with it.

3rd Form Juubi failed to overcome the Hokages' combined barrier, even with its best Biju Dama, whereas 1st Form Juubi Obito easily overcame it through physical might alone. This is 2nd Form Juubi Obito we're talking about, and he was going all out to kill Naruto and Sasuke at the time, yet both BSM Naruto and CS-Susano'o Sasuke more or less tanked his arms of doom and got right back up to fight in just a few seconds.

Just deal with it. CS-Susano'o Sasuke and PS Sasuke >>> Kurama, offensively and defensively.


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## ueharakk (Nov 22, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> So what's stopping Susano'o from repairing any damage it takes this time?


I never said that Sasuke couldn't repair damage done to susanoo.  however if you are going to argue he repairs all damage he takes, you're going to have to give reasoning as to how much damas his susanoo will take, how much damage it will do and why it would be able to repair that kind of damage.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Who cares? Susano'o was completely unaffected and untouched by the Biju Dama.


in order for that to be true, you'd have to presuppose the exact thing that you were arguing for.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Keep lying to yourself. If Naruto was really using an 'indefinite SM', he would have kept the toad eyes in this transformation, as opposed to his normal human eyes - we now know that Kurama's chakra can, in fact, sync with Sennin Modo. If Naruto still had SM active at the time he took in Kurama's chakra (which, according to you, had to be the case as it was 'indefinitely' on), he at least would've kept the toad eyes.


Why exactly would naruto have kept toad eyes after using the transformation?  Indefinite means that he doesn't have periods in which he has to stop and reenter SM which we know doesn't happen if he's constantly getting supplied natural energy, something that is true if he is able to sit and fight (against Kurama) or if ma and pa sit and gather it while he fights (what jiraiya does).



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Also, even if Naruto had an indefinite SM, he would most certainly not be on a totally different level from where he would be with a more limited SM, stop exaggerating.


It's in no way an exaggeration.  Against pain, he dominated the fight at all times while he was in sage mode, the only time he started to lose was when he reverted to base.  It's the same with kurama.  Taking away that weakness means he dominates both of them throughout the fight in addition to that, he doesn't have to worry about limiting his jutsu since the cap is his total chakra reserves and not just 2-3 FRS.  Finally with indefinite SM, Naruto can use as many clones as he wants which greatly increases his battle capability.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Who cares if Sasuke isn't fighting Yang Kurama? There's no measurable difference between Yang Kurama and your so-called 100% Kurama in terms of strength. At best, 100% Kurama would only be twice as powerful as his Yang self, mathematically speaking.


There is in terms of size, and if SM Naruto was battling 100% Kurama, he wouldn't have been able to slam him on the ground with just himself, nor would he have been able to incap him with just one SM FRS.  Everything he'd have to use would be multiplied in order to achieve the same affect offensively, same would go with sasuke.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> If Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi can cause the 3rd Form Juubi pain, it assuredly will destroy Kurama in seconds. The Hachibi wasn't lit on fire for an entire chapter, it was only lit on fire for a few seconds at most before Bee finally pulled out a Kawarimi no Jutsu and escaped, leaving a transformed clone in his place that continued to burn under the black flames. Who cares if FRS formed part of that attack, anyway?


Why exactly does causing pain to the 3rd form juubi equate to beating 100% Kurama in mere seconds?  BM Naruto's FRS cut through the juubi's tail, does that mean it'd cut right through 100% Kurama?  And sure bee was on fire for a couple of seconds, but if bee can withstand amaterasu for a couple of seconds without any notable injuries, why would it defeat kurama?  Is it because kagutsuchi is more potent than amaterasu?  If so then you can't use the power of the combined enton kagutsuchi and COFRS to gauge how kagutsuchi alone would stack up against the juubi.  The whole is greater than the sum of its parts especially when combining elementals, that's why jinton is so deadly, why FRS is so much more powerful than a rasengan.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> The KCM Chou Odama FRS and Susano'o Enton Kagutsuchi were equal in power, that was the entire point, and even if Susano'o Enton Kagutsuchi is only half as powerful as the combination of both techniques, it's still more than powerful enough to burn the Kyuubi down. Seriously, I don't know why you're overestimating the Kyuubi so damn much. How on earth can you possibly claim it can survive something that even Juubi had trouble with? _Furthermore, why on earth are you ignoring the fact that it wasn't even Sasuke's best Susano'o Enton,_ and he can fire off _much bigger and stronger ones now?_ Seriously.


What susanoo kagutsuchi has sasuke done that is better than the arrow?  Enton being half the recipe =/= it yields half the power of the final result.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> So are you insinuating that Obito was holding back against Naruto and Sasuke or something?
> 
> Comparing the size of craters is simply meaningless here as Juubi Obito used up much of his strength in just squeezing the duo's chakra shrouds to nothingness while they were in the air before eventually slamming them into the ground.


*Their shrouds don't seem to be significantly smaller or destroyed a moment before obito slams them into the ground.*



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> There's also the fact that size doesn't always equate to power. The Juubi tanked the combination of Kurama's and Gyuki's Biju Dama without retaining any damage whatsoever, and that too in its first form. Yet BM Naruto's FRS (which is much smaller than the two biju's combined Biju Dama) can cut through the 2nd Form Juubi's limbs as they're made of butter.
> 
> Kakashi's water source-empowered Suitons were huge in size, yet they failed to kill Zabuza. Do you see a Rasengan or Chidori failing to kill Zabuza, even though they're smaller in size and scale? Because I sure as hell don't. The combination of Gyuki's Biju Dama and the KN9 Allied Shinobi Forces ninja's techniques were on a much smaller scale than Kurama's Biju Dama in size alone, yet they actually damaged the 2nd Form Juubi's arms, whereas the combination of BM Naruto's Biju Dama and Gyuki's Biju Dama really did jack shit to 1st Form Juubi. There are attacks that make Biju Dama look obsolete, deal with it.


It's not the AoE of the attack, it's the sum total damage they do to their surroundings and how much of the total power of the attack was exerted on its surroundings.  The slam exerting its full force on the ground and created a crater that is just eclipsed by the combined bijuudama which didn't exert its full force on the ground since it wasn't fired directly into it and is a spherical explosion which means its power is exerted in all directions.  

Had all the other examples you've given consisted of the attacks exerting their full power on a common destroy able substance, then you'd see the total damage from the more powerful attacks are greater than the weaker ones.  



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> 3rd Form Juubi failed to overcome the Hokages' combined barrier, even with its best Biju Dama, whereas 1st Form Juubi Obito easily overcame it through physical might alone. This is 2nd Form Juubi Obito we're talking about, and he was going all out to kill Naruto and Sasuke at the time, yet both BSM Naruto and CS-Susano'o Sasuke more or less tanked his arms of doom and got right back up to fight in just a few seconds.


yet the resultant from the attack that second form juubito used was weaker than attacks that BM Naruto can pull off.  How did the 1st form juubito destroy the barrier?  He grabbed it and then yanked it beyond its ability to expand.  Now, did he try to do that at all to Naruto or Sasuke?  No, he grabbed them, attacked him with just its grip and then slammed them to the ground.  BM Minato was slapping the arms that tore through the barrier away, and destroyed those arms with a rasengan and we know that his shroud gets six tails removed from the V1 juubilaser.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Just deal with it. CS-Susano'o Sasuke and PS Sasuke >>> Kurama, offensively and defensively.


Super bijuudama is magnitudes greater than anything sasuke has in his arsenal whether you think enton hax means his offense is > kurama's is only up to subjective opinion since enton is better against certain defenses while bijuudama is better against others.

madara's PS got destroyed by the equivalent of 11 sword damas or an explosion *of this size*, unless sasuke pulls out a bigger susanoo it doesn't take more hits than that, and the smaller his susanoo the less damas it takes to bust it as well.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 22, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Actually, Kurama is a small country to low country destroyer, fior fior. His strongest Bijudama's (through Naruto) go from over 2 teratons all the way up to 40 teratons or more.



Bullshit. The Kyuubi would be lucky if it could destroy a small city with a single Bijuudama.

None of its attacks break the double-digit megaton limit on modern nuclear weapons, and most of them don't even come close to that.


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## kaminogan (Nov 22, 2013)

i assume sasuke is at full power,

like naruto was when he fought kurama,

well i cant see him stealing kurama's chakra, he lacks the creativity and sheer power attacks to pull it off,

although he could hypnotize him into giving him power,


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## ueharakk (Nov 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Bullshit. The Kyuubi would be lucky if it could destroy a small city with a single Bijuudama.


what are the dimensions of a small city in kilometers?



Nikushimi said:


> None of its attacks break the double-digit megaton limit on modern nuclear weapons, and most of them don't even come close to that.


OBD calcs give a normal bijuudama a 4 GT energy yield though....


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## Nikushimi (Nov 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> what are the dimensions of a small city in kilometers?



Obviously the dimensions of a city are going to be variable, but I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 100,000 to 200,000km^2.



> OBD calcs give a normal bijuudama a 4 GT energy yield though....



OBD calcs aren't official and they've kinda spiraled out of control as of late. People have forgotten the importance of low-ending.


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## ueharakk (Nov 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Obviously the dimensions of a city are going to be variable, but I'm thinking somewhere in the range of 100,000 to 200,000km^2.


so it'd have to have a blast diameter of at least 333 kilometers?  Yeah there's no way anything but the juubi is doing that.



Nikushimi said:


> OBD calcs aren't official and they've kinda spiraled out of control as of late. People have forgotten the importance of low-ending.


weldenshowumhowitsdunifusosmat


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 22, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Bullshit. The Kyuubi would be lucky if it could destroy a small city with a single Bijuudama.
> 
> None of its attacks break the double-digit megaton limit on modern nuclear weapons, and most of them don't even come close to that.



I don't really understand how you come to conclude any of these claims, but then go on to say:



> OBD calcs aren't official and they've kinda spiraled out of control as of late. People have forgotten the importance of low-ending.



What *exactly *makes your word more 'official' than theirs? On the other hand, at least they have scaling and numbers to prove their points - here, you're just guesstimating the destructive limit of the Tailed Beast Bomb, saying 'none of them break double-digit megatons' with little evidence to show for it.

Furthermore, there _isn't_ a low-end for the Tailed Beast Bomb, because there isn't a range encompassing possible values. Its calc has stayed solidly firmly at four gigatons for quite a while now.


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## Ashi (Nov 22, 2013)

If Kurama's TBB can't destroy a small city than it would be weaker than Pains almighty push which blew konoha away in a second


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 23, 2013)

Kurama's Biju Dama is more than capable of obliterating a small city. I don't know what Nikushimi is talking about, as even the weaker tailed beasts are easily capable of blowing up mountains and villages using their standard Biju Dama blasts, and 50% BM Naruto was capable of firing off one that could match or even surpass that of five other biju. 

Considering that Kurama's full chakra equates to the combined chakra of the other 8 biju, its full power Biju Dama could only be rivaled by a Biju Dama coming from all of those 8 biju. If you think about it, that should be enough to destroy a small country, not just a city. But it's all meaningless in the face of Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, quite honestly.

Sasuke's Susano'o enabled him to survive a hit from someone that can dish out more damage than the Juubi's Biju Dama could. The Juubi is composed of not only Kurama's chakra, but all the other 8 biju's chakra too - therefore making it far stronger than all of them individually at least. To *Ueherakk,* Juubi Obito didn't try to rip Naruto and Sasuke's shrouds apart, true, but he did squeeze them for the longest time before flicking them to the ground, which resulted in a massive crater. Obito had done all of this, fully intending to kill both Naruto and Sasuke, yet he failed to do so. I don't know why he would suddenly choose to hold back against them, if you think the strength he used there was inferior to the strength used in pulling apart and smashing through the Hokages' combined barrier. It would've been so much easier for him than using up any amount of chakra in launching Biju Dama or Onmyoton Orbs at the duo, and Obito was taking them fairly seriously. Speaking of which, Juubi Obito DID use Onmyoton-based arms on the duo, which should only be stronger than his regular chakra arms, which alone were capable of tearing apart the Hokages' barrier.

I don't remember BM Minato swatting Juubi Obito's chakra arms - in fact, it was BSM Naruto who was doing that, while Minato and Naruto together were pushing a gigantic Rasengan through the rest of the arms, obliterating them in the process. The Biju Dama is strong and all, but it's not too different from the Kamehameha of Dragon Ball or the Getsuga Tenshou of Bleach - all three of them have been survived, even shrugged off by an ever-growing number of characters. For all their power, they lack precision. Besides, no physical attack has _ever_ produced that level of damage in the manga (I'm referring to the crater Juubi Obito generated in his attack on Naruto and Sasuke). And physical attacks usually tend to have far less of an after-effect on the terrain than energy blasts do, even though they might do more damage at times. Food for thought.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Kurama's Biju Dama is more than capable of obliterating a small city. I don't know what Nikushimi is talking about, as even the weaker tailed beasts are easily capable of blowing up mountains and villages using their standard Biju Dama blasts, and 50% BM Naruto was capable of firing off one that could match or even surpass that of five other biju.


I believe he's talking about real life cities which are much larger than the cities of naruto. * This* is roughly the *area a normal TBB clears out.*  If what Nikushimi said is true, that small square cities have diameters with a lower limit of 333 kilometers, then there's no way a normal is destroying a small city since bee isn't a kilometer long, and even if he was, you couldn't fit 333 of him inside the blast radius if lined up in a straight line.




Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Considering that Kurama's full chakra equates to the combined chakra of the other 8 biju, its full power Biju Dama could only be rivaled by a Biju Dama coming from all of those 8 biju. If you think about it, that should be enough to destroy a small country, not just a city. But it's all meaningless in the face of Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, quite honestly.


Unless you think Sasuke's PS is > Madaras or that Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu barrage is stronger than the juubidama, then it's not meaningless in the face of sasuke's PS.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Sasuke's Susano'o enabled him to survive a hit from someone that can dish out more damage than the Juubi's Biju Dama could. The Juubi is composed of not only Kurama's chakra, but all the other 8 biju's chakra too - therefore making it far stronger than all of them individually at least. To *Ueherakk,* Juubi Obito didn't try to rip Naruto and Sasuke's shrouds apart, true, but he did squeeze them for the longest time before flicking them to the ground, which resulted in a massive crater. Obito had done all of this, fully intending to kill both Naruto and Sasuke, yet he failed to do so. I don't know why he would suddenly choose to hold back against them, if you think the strength he used there was inferior to the strength used in pulling apart and smashing through the Hokages' combined barrier. It would've been so much easier for him than using up any amount of chakra in launching Biju Dama or Onmyoton Orbs at the duo, and Obito was taking them fairly seriously. Speaking of which, Juubi Obito DID use Onmyoton-based arms on the duo, which should only be stronger than his regular chakra arms, which alone were capable of tearing apart the Hokages' barrier.


Call it PIS.  Obito could have killed the alliance a hundred times over if he wasn't hit with that.  



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> I don't remember BM Minato swatting Juubi Obito's chakra arms - in fact, it was BSM Naruto who was doing that, while Minato and Naruto together were pushing a gigantic Rasengan through the rest of the arms, obliterating them in the process.


*BM Minato swatting Juubito's arms.*



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> The Biju Dama is strong and all, but it's not too different from the Kamehameha of Dragon Ball or the Getsuga Tenshou of Bleach - all three of them have been survived, even shrugged off by an ever-growing number of characters. For all their power, they lack precision. Besides, no physical attack has _ever_ produced that level of damage in the manga (I'm referring to the crater Juubi Obito generated in his attack on Naruto and Sasuke). And physical attacks usually tend to have far less of an after-effect on the terrain than energy blasts do, even though they might do more damage at times. Food for thought.


can you give me an example of your physical attacks vs energy blasts on terrain?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi, 4 Gigatons _is_ the low end for a normal Bijudama from Biju 1-8. They can go up to double to triple digit gigatons on the high end.

Seriously, you disrespect Kurama and the Biju's power so much you claim they _can't even destroy cities_ despite Bijudama's wiping out _huge mountains?_


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I don't really understand how you come to conclude any of these claims, but then go on to say:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1. I'm not claiming to be an official source, so I don't know where you got that from.

2. Given the size of a Bijuudama fireball in relation to other objects (e.g., the Bijuu), I feel reasonably certain that they don't achieve yields outside of the double-digit megaton range. The Tsar Bomb (largest nuclear weapon ever detonated) had a fireball with a radius of a little less than 5km, and the one produced by the Hachibi's (presumably) full-powered Bijuudama was roughly 11x the Hachibi's height (100m, scaled from Gamabunta and Shukaku). That's a radius of a little over a single kilometer. The only Bijuudama (excluding the Juubi's) that can potentially exceed the megaton range is the Kyuubi's absolute best, but throwing around "teratons" of explosive yield remains to be seen.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Nikushimi, 4 Gigatons _is_ the low end for a normal Bijudama from Biju 1-8. They can go up to double to triple digit gigatons on the high end.
> 
> Seriously, you disrespect Kurama and the Biju's power so much you claim they _can't even destroy cities_ despite Bijudama's wiping out _huge mountains?_



Spoken like someone who truly does not understand the scale of your average city in modern industrialized nations.

Sure, it's displacing more mass by destroying a mountain. But you're not blowing up a whole country with that. There is too much open space. The energy gets diffused.

What's more, 4 Gigatons does not produce a fireball with only a 1km radius.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Niku thinks his math is better than the OBD who spend like hours calculating that shit. 



> What's more, 4 Gigatons does not produce a fireball with only a 3km radis.




4 Gigatons doesn't have to produce a fireball at all. Bijuudama isn't a nuclear weapon or even comparable.

They calculate energy releases, not fireball size. An earthquake's energy, for example, is measured using the TNT equivalent, yet it doesn't even have a fireball.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Niku thinks his math is better than the OBD who spend like hours calculating that shit.



OBD calcs have lead to conclusions like a SM FRS is more than 100 times more powerful than *this attack* and that naruto's oodama rasengan he used against itachi is 10 times more powerful than the FRS he used against kakuzu.

I think his calc based on the sizes of fireballs made by nukes vs fireball from a bijuudama is a good one, if anything it's an overestimation of the bijuudama considering real nukes don't just destroy things that are inside the fireball.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Niku thinks his math is better than the OBD who spend like hours calculating that shit.



I will admit I was actually mistaken, here.

About the height of the Bijuu/Gamabunta- it's 100km, not 300.

So the radius of that Bijuudama is really only about one kilometer.



> 4 Gigatons doesn't have to produce a fireball at all. Bijuudama isn't a nuclear weapon or even comparable.



Kishi hasn't exactly been subtle about the nuclear weapons allegory in the Bijuudama.



> They calculate energy releases, not fireball size. An earthquake's energy, for example, is measured using the TNT equivalent, yet it doesn't even have a fireball.



The release of an earthquake's energy is not analogous to that of a Bijuudama, though.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Kishi hasn't exactly been subtle about the nuclear weapons allegory in the Bijuudama.




They aren't even close to the same thing. Bijuudama is black and white Chakra. Nuclear weapons involve nuclear fission or fusion. Bijuudama obviously does not, else Bee would've been vaporized by the heat or killed by the radiation.




> The release of an earthquake's energy is not analogous to that of a Bijuudama, though.




What? The amount of energy released by different phenomenons can be universally measured using the TNT equivalent, which is that "Kil/Meg/Gig/etc.-aton" scale that the Outskirts Battledome uses.

Earthquakes can release amounts of energy equivalent to that of thousands of nuclear bombs. So, what does fireball size have to do with energy released?


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Nov 23, 2013)

is this a joke? kurama washes him!


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 23, 2013)

I don't know what's all the complications about.

Roar alone ends it.

One KN3 roar had Kabuto in pain as much as a Rasengan did.

Sasuke isn't surviving a Roar...nor is he going to throw up Susanoo in time to defend against it. How the fuck do you anticipate a roar anyway. I gotta hear this one.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

And by the way Nikushimi, the size of the craters left by Bijudama's range from 5-6 kilometers all the way up to 100 kilometers for the one Naruto and Bee used. Your downplay of Bijudama and the Biju is REALLY annoying.


----------



## Krippy (Nov 23, 2013)

Lol joke thread.

Sauce takes this without Senjutsu.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. I'm not claiming to be an official source, so I don't know where you got that from.



Yet you purport your 'eyeballing-scaling' as superior in validity to those of OBD calcs, which you insist on discrediting, despite a complete lack of evidence to show for it.

It would really help if you actually bothered supporting your claims instead of airily dismissing established calcs without a clue. 



> and the one produced by the Hachibi's (presumably) *full-powered Bijuudama was roughly 11x the Hachibi's height (*100m, scaled from Gamabunta and Shukaku). That's a radius of a little over a single kilometer. The only Bijuudama (excluding the Juubi's) that can potentially exceed the megaton range is the Kyuubi's absolute best, but throwing around "teratons" of explosive yield remains to be seen.



... are you just guessing this? Where does this number, 'roughly 11 times' come from? 



The Hachimaki crater was already a bit over five kilometers; the subsequently launched Tailed Beast Bombs were equal to or bigger than it. Sorry, but it's clear that these attacks easily exceed the double-megaton range, and when you take into account that they pulverized, perhaps even *vaporized*, the mountains they detonated within, it's entirely acceptable that they end up yielding gigaton results.

Or heck, even this:



The sizes of the craters were rendered even bigger. To baselessly say their radii are just under/over a kilometer is blatant downplaying, or really demonstrates how utterly terrible you are at scaling.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 23, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Lol joke thread.
> 
> Sauce takes this without Senjutsu.


Sasuke has nothing to _damage_ Kurama while Kurama can casually nuke him with roars and Bijudama's. Sorry, Sasuke needs a lot more than what he's shown to win.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

Rocky said:


> They aren't even close to the same thing.



They are very close to the same thing- so much so that Bijuudama are analogous to nuclear weapons not only in their physical scale but also in psychological impact and efficacy.



> Bijuudama is black and white Chakra. Nuclear weapons involve nuclear fission or fusion.



One is magic. The other is science. For all practical intents and purposes, they are the same: they produce a big-ass explosion.



> Bijuudama obviously does not, else Bee would've been vaporized by the heat or killed by the radiation.



Or the Hachibi can just take what it dishes, along with anything else around that level.



> What? The amount of energy released by different phenomenons can be universally measured using the TNT equivalent, which is that "Kil/Meg/Gig/etc.-aton" scale that the Outskirts Battledome uses.
> 
> Earthquakes can release amounts of energy equivalent to that of thousands of nuclear bombs. So, what does fireball size have to do with energy released?



Because the way that energy is released is the same, between a Bijuudama and a nuke; it's not like an earthquake, which does not produce an explosion. An earthquake is caused by tectonic activity and generates its energy through the movement of large volumes of earth.



Jak N Blak said:


> I don't know what's all the complications about.
> 
> Roar alone ends it.
> 
> One KN3 roar had Kabuto in pain as much as a Rasengan did.



Rasengan put Kabuto down for the count, but Sanbi Naruto's roar failed to do so.



> Sasuke isn't surviving a Roar...nor is he going to throw up Susanoo in time to defend against it. How the fuck do you anticipate a roar anyway. I gotta hear this one.



The Kyuubi's roar isn't doing anything to Susano'o, and Sasuke is very easily activating that Jutsu before the Kyuubi does anything; he was able to activate it when Danzou had a sword less than an inch from his throat in mid-swing.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And by the way Nikushimi, the size of the craters left by Bijudama's range from 5-6 kilometers



1. I was talking about the size of the fireball, not the crater. 

2. The size of the  the Hachimaki crater, which is nowhere near 5-6km; it's more like 1-3km, given that the Hachibi is about 100m tall (all you need is a ruler to confirm this, or you can do a pixel count if you want absolute precision).



> all the way up to 100 kilometers for the one Naruto and Bee used.



That was a combined Bijuudama and there's no way to scale it down to them individually.



> Your downplay of Bijudama and the Biju is REALLY annoying.



Well boo-hoo. You won't even dignify me with a response, so why should I care how you feel?

You don't want to discuss it. You don't want to stake your own beliefs by examining the evidence critically. So give me one good reason why I should value your opinion.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Yet you purport your 'eyeballing-scaling' as superior in validity to those of OBD calcs, which you insist on discrediting, despite a complete lack of evidence to show for it.
> 
> It would really help if you actually bothered supporting your claims instead of airily dismissing established calcs without a clue.



You say that and then proceed to go on addressing my evidence, so I'm just gonna assume everything's squared-away on this end. 



> ... are you just guessing this? Where does this number, 'roughly 11 times' come from?



I took a ruler and measured it. Hachibi's height is about half a centimeter on my computer monitor; the Bijuudama's radius is about 6cm. I could've said 12x, but it really looked closer to 11.



> The Hachimaki crater was already a bit over five kilometers;



I have to disagree with that calc; the Hachibi's height on my screen is about half of a centimeter and the radius of the Hachimaki at its foremost apex is about 15cm, so if the Hachibi is about 100m tall then that means the radius of the Hachimaki's crater is about 3km (optimistically).

Mind you, that's _crater_ size; as I pointed out to SSM12 already, I was talking about fireball size.



> the subsequently launched Tailed Beast Bombs were equal to or bigger than it.



The very source you provided in that link indicates otherwise, explicitly.



> Sorry, but it's clear that these attacks easily exceed the double-megaton range, and when you take into account that they pulverized, perhaps even *vaporized*, the mountains they detonated within, it's entirely acceptable that they end up yielding gigaton results.



If they have a yield of several gigatons, why are they only producing fireballs on a scale that we see from nuclear weapons in the double-digit megaton range?



> Or heck, even this:
> 
> 
> 
> The sizes of the craters were rendered even bigger. To baselessly say their radii are just under/over a kilometer is blatant downplaying, or really demonstrates how utterly terrible you are at scaling.



The problem you run into is that Kishimoto's artwork is not that consistent; as soon as you change panels, you throw out the old pixel count because it no longer applies.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke has nothing to _damage_ Kurama while Kurama can casually nuke him with roars and Bijudama's. Sorry, Sasuke needs a lot more than what he's shown to win.



Amaterasu/Enton would suffice.

Susano'o endures the Kyuubi's roar with no damage and endures standard Bijuudama with minor damage.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I have to disagree with that calc; the Hachibi's height on my screen is about half of a centimeter and the radius of the Hachimaki at its foremost apex is about 15cm, so if the Hachibi is about 100m tall then that means the radius of the Hachimaki's crater is about 3km (optimistically).
> .



The blog gives the hachibi's crater a total diameter of 5.6 kilometers.  Thus the numbers you are getting would make the hachibi's crater even larger if 3km is only the radius.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> They are very close to the same thing- so much so that Bijuudama are analogous to nuclear weapons not only in their physical scale but also in psychological impact and efficacy.




I hope you aren't shallow enough to blindly believe that two things are the same simply because they both cause explosions. Bijuudama and nuclear weapons literally share nothing in common other than "they go boom."




> One is magic. The other is science. For all practical intents and purposes, they are the same: they produce a big-ass explosion.




Maybe you are...



> Or the Hachibi can just take what it dishes, along with anything else around that level.




Tanking Radiation, huh?



> Because the way that energy is released is the same, between a Bijuudama and a nuke; it's not like an earthquake, which does not produce an explosion. An earthquake is caused by tectonic activity and generates its energy through the movement of large volumes of earth.




So what? My point stands man. Two things may cause an explosion, but that doesn't mean they have to be similar beyond that. Nuclear weapons set things on fire and poison shit far outside of their initial blast radius. They're also as hotter than the sun at the epicenter, but hey, if you want to give Bijuudama those feats, when maybe I shouldn't complain.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The blog gives the hachibi's crater a total diameter of 5.6 kilometers.  Thus the numbers you are getting would make the hachibi's crater even larger if 3km is only the radius.



1. It's irrelevant because the initial comparison was based on fireball size, not crater size.

2. 3km is still smaller than the Tsar Bomb's fireball's radius.



Rocky said:


> I hope you aren't shallow enough to blindly believe that two things are the same simply because they both cause explosions. Bijuudama and nuclear weapons literally share nothing in common other than "they go boom."



That is the relevant similarity here, so what's the problem? We are talking about explosive force/yield.



> Tanking Radiation, huh?



It's fiction. The Bijuu are magical creatures.

They withstood Bijuudama, so they did tank radiation (which is just the name for the generic transference of energetic particles/waves). Radioactive fallout is a little more debatable, but I'm not someone who can address that topic.



> So what? My point stands man. Two things may cause an explosion, but that doesn't mean they have to be similar beyond that.



That is the only issue we're discussing, so it's important that they are similar.



> Nuclear weapons set things on fire and poison shit far outside of their initial blast radius. They're also as hotter than the sun at the epicenter, but hey, if you want to give Bijuudama those feats, when maybe I shouldn't complain.



Naturally, all of that would apply to Bijuudama, given the scale and yield. The one exception might be fallout, but I'm not really familiar enough with the subject to discuss it in any meaningful depth.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. It's irrelevant because the initial comparison was based on fireball size, not crater size.


The fireball is at least as large as the crater it generates.......


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## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Bijuudama canonically isn't as hot as any modern nuclear weapon. We've seen Bijuudama's effects; if I dropped a nuke on Taka, Suigetsu would've been vaporized and the others would've been reduced to burnt bloody messes.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 23, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The fireball is at least as large as the crater it generates.......



The crater is going to be larger than the fireball; when an explosion of that scale goes off, the force travels way beyond the fireball and scoops out the ground a good distance beyond it.



Rocky said:


> Bijuudama canonically isn't as hot as any modern nuclear weapon. We've seen Bijuudama's effects; if I dropped a nuke on Taka, Suigetsu would've been vaporized and the others would've been reduced to burnt bloody messes.



Based on results...that isn't the case.


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## Rocky (Nov 23, 2013)

Thus they aren't the same thing, obviously, as a nuke would've displayed those results.


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## ueharakk (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The crater is going to be larger than the fireball; when an explosion of that scale goes off, the force travels way beyond the fireball and scoops out the ground a good distance beyond it.


except that's not true for bijuudamas, they only destroy what's within the fireball.

In addition to that, the fireball being smaller than the crater hurts your case since the fireball of the bijuudamas are *the same size as the hachibi's crater.*  Thus if you say that the hachibi's crater yields a 3km radius, then it would follow that the diameter is 6km and that the fireball has a diameter of 6km.


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## Tsunami (Nov 23, 2013)

Senjutsu is overkill.

Enton arrows and amerterasu on an easy to hit target = gg


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 23, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> You say that and then proceed to go on addressing my evidence, so I'm just gonna assume everything's squared-away on this end.



Oh, don't get me wrong, your 'evidence' is as flimsy as it can get, I'm just addressing it in hopes that you realize just how low-balled your pathetic method of 'scaling' is. 



> I have to disagree with that calc; the Hachibi's height on my screen is about half of a centimeter and the radius of the Hachimaki at its foremost apex is about 15cm, so if the Hachibi is about 100m tall then that means the radius of the Hachimaki's crater is about 3km (optimistically).



Yeah, you can go ahead and disagree with it, doesn't change the blatant fact that pixel scaling, which takes measurements to near-precision, are far more accurate than your shoddy 'measuring with your ruler' means that flat-out contradict *multiple* calculations, all garnering similar dimensions of the crater.

Not to mention said calcs are looked over and supported by equally experienced, pixel-scaling calcers, so there's honestly zero chance of your scaling being truer.



> Mind you, that's _crater_ size; as I pointed out to SSM12 already, I was talking about fireball size.



Fireball size of the Tailed Beast Bomb?

Buddy, the fireballs of the respective Tailed Beast Bombs* are* pretty much equal in size to that Hachimaki crater, if not a bit greater. 




> The very source you provided in that link indicates otherwise, explicitly.



Read the calc I sent you.



LazyWaka measured the third Tailed Beast Bomb to be 95 pixels wide; the Hachimaki crater 100px respectively. They're pretty damn similar, 5 pixels is an extremely small difference. However, I'm also not taking into account that said Tailed Beast Bomb fireball is already multiple kilometers further from the 'camera', or point-of view, of the panel, meaning the Hachimaki crater is in the foreground, and thus, bound to 'look bigger'.

As such, I'm more than confident in saying that the fireballs of the bombs are >= the Hachimaki crater, which is agreed to be at least 8km in diameter.



> If they have a yield of several gigatons, why are they only producing fireballs on a scale that we see from nuclear weapons in the double-digit megaton range?



Because of the craters they leave. Note that while Tsar Bomba had a given energy in TNT tons (50 megatons), what the OBD does is calculate the size and depth of craters the blasts, and that's what gave it gigatons.

If Tsar Bomba had actually pulverized/vaporized a mountain on that scale, it would have yielded that amount. But it was set at 50 MT. Feats-wise, Tailed Beast Bombs are in the gigaton-range, as it's about the *volume* of rock they destroyed, not their size, which you keep pushing as the more important factor.

It isn't.



> The problem you run into is that Kishimoto's artwork is not that consistent; as soon as you change panels, you throw out the old pixel count because it no longer applies.



We didn't change panels. There is but a *single* panel that shows the Eight-Tails within its own Hachimaki crater. Only one. So there isn't a contention of inconsistency, or what have you.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 24, 2013)

Is this an Itachi thread?

Niku is putting in work. Lmao.

Taking on everyone and shit.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 24, 2013)

Tsunami said:


> Senjutsu is overkill.
> 
> Enton arrows and amerterasu on an easy to hit target = gg


Which Kurama can roar away? Amaterasu doesn't have the feats to bother Kurama either and he can blow it off with his chakra. Not only that, Enton Arrows? Same ones stopped by chakra rods?


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 24, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Thus they aren't the same thing, obviously, as a nuke would've displayed those results.



Nukes HAVE displayed those results. 



ueharakk said:


> except that's not true for bijuudamas, they only destroy what's within the fireball.
> 
> In addition to that, the fireball being smaller than the crater hurts your case since the fireball of the bijuudamas are *the same size as the hachibi's crater.*  Thus if you say that the hachibi's crater yields a 3km radius, then it would follow that the diameter is 6km and that the fireball has a diameter of 6km.



Yeah, and that's still smaller than the Tsar Bomb, which was 50-59mt. 



ATastyMuffin said:


> Oh, don't get me wrong, your 'evidence' is as flimsy as it can get, I'm just addressing it in hopes that you realize just how low-balled your pathetic method of 'scaling' is.



I look forward to it. :ignoramus



> Yeah, you can go ahead and disagree with it, doesn't change the blatant fact that pixel scaling, which takes measurements to near-precision, are far more accurate than your shoddy 'measuring with your ruler' means that flat-out contradict *multiple* calculations, all garnering similar dimensions of the crater.
> 
> Not to mention said calcs are looked over and supported by equally experienced, pixel-scaling calcers, so there's honestly zero chance of your scaling being truer.



That doesn't mean I'm wrong. 

Even if you take it for granted that the Bijuudama fireballs are 5-6km in diameter, they're still within the double-digit megaton scale.



> Fireball size of the Tailed Beast Bomb?
> 
> Buddy, the fireballs of the respective Tailed Beast Bombs* are* pretty much equal in size to that Hachimaki crater, if not a bit greater.
> 
> ...




Given the perspective, that's unlikely; the view is from so far away and at such an elevation that they're both way off in the distance.



> As such, I'm more than confident in saying that the fireballs of the bombs are >= the Hachimaki crater, which is agreed to be at least 8km in diameter.



What happened to 5-6km? 



> Because of the craters they leave. Note that while Tsar Bomba had a given energy in TNT tons (50 megatons), what the OBD does is calculate the size and depth of craters the blasts, and that's what gave it gigatons.
> 
> If Tsar Bomba had actually pulverized/vaporized a mountain on that scale, it would have yielded that amount. But it was set at 50 MT. Feats-wise, Tailed Beast Bombs are in the gigaton-range, as it's about the *volume* of rock they destroyed, not their size, which you keep pushing as the more important factor.
> 
> It isn't.



Oh I'm not denying the validity of the calculation. I'm simply saying it's wrong based on the actual scale of the explosion.



> We didn't change panels. There is but a *single* panel that shows the Eight-Tails within its own Hachimaki crater. Only one. So there isn't a contention of inconsistency, or what have you.



The alternative calc of the Hachimaki crater you provided cites other panels and scales based on the innermost ring around the epicenter.



Jak N Blak said:


> Is this an Itachi thread?
> 
> Niku is putting in work. Lmao.
> 
> Taking on everyone and shit.



You know it. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Which Kurama can roar away? Amaterasu doesn't have the feats to bother Kurama either and he can blow it off with his chakra. Not only that, Enton Arrows? Same ones stopped by chakra rods?



The Kyuubi has no feats to suggest that its roars can blow away Amaterasu.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 24, 2013)

To all guys insisting that Kurama can blow off Amaterasu flames: Are you kidding me? Pre-EMS Sasuke's Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi damaged the 3rd Form Juubi so much that it began to scream like a bitch, and needed to split off the burning parts of its body in order to survive, something that Kurama cannot do. It would've downed the Juubi if it hadn't done so, just like how MS Sasuke's Amaterasu would've downed the Hachibi, that is, if Bee didn't escape through Kawarimi no Jutsu. The only reason why there were no injuries on Gyuki's body after the fight is simply because it has an astonishing recovery rate (like all other biju), it was in a bad shape after taking its own Biju Dama but was perfectly fine just a few seconds later. However, if the flames were still on it, it obviously wouldn't have been able to regenerate effectively and would have eventually fallen unconscious.

Yes, I know that Sasuke had the support of KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS, but in the end, both techniques were presented as equals in power and chakra, and that Kuchiyose-sized FRS is obviously way more powerful than the SM FRS that knocked Kurama down and dealt heavy damage to it. It's pretty clear that this FRS, which is at least 10x as strong as SM Naruto's FRS, would've instantly one-shotted Kurama. EMS Sasuke's Enton was that FRS's equal in power, and now that he's acquired Perfect Susano'o, he can use even bigger and stronger Entons through it for burning the fox to ashes. I can't see Kyuubi surviving a PS-level Enton Sword Slash, honestly. That's too much.

Besides, the 3rd Form Juubi is on a whole other level from Kurama in terms of durability, so if Enton and another technique that is its equal in strength can even give it so much as a nose-bleed, it would still be capable of OHKOing Kurama with impunity. Even its first form demonstrated vastly superior durability to the Kyuubi in its complete and utter tanking of BM Naruto's and Gyuki's combined Super Biju Dama. If you can hurt it with something, you can definitely kill Kurama with that certain something. It's that simple.

I don't see Kurama being able to focus his chakra into a chakra roar, not if he's suffering excruciating damage from EMS Sasuke's Enton, and he'd be utterly destroyed by it before he could muster a powerful enough roar in the first place. Also, if the flames cover some particular Kurama's body (including its head, back and eyes), it's not going to be roaring the flames off those parts, that's physically and biologically impossible. I mean, look at it this way. Can you breathe across the entire back of your body? I didn't think so. Can you breathe on your eyes or nose? Of course not. Kurama isn't roaring off flames present on those body parts, and it's no more physically flexible than a human being. And a weaker version of these flames are strong enough to harm a being that is far, far more durable and powerful than it is. PS-level Enton = Kyuubi melted to liquid goo or burned to ashes.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Which Kurama can roar away? Amaterasu  doesn't have the feats to bother Kurama either and he can blow it off  with his chakra. Not only that, Enton Arrows? Same ones stopped by chakra rods?



Last time I checked, those chakra rods had the ability to absorb Ninjutsu - something that Kurama does _not_ possess.


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## ueharakk (Nov 24, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Last time I checked, those chakra rods had the ability to absorb Ninjutsu - something that Kurama does _not_ possess.



Since when did those chakra rods possess that ability?


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 25, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Since when did those chakra rods possess that ability?



The Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi arrow practically _disappeared_ on making contact with that chakra rod, and Amaterasu is supposed to be inextinguishable. Even if the arrow were to be blocked, it's still made of black flames that logically would have caught on to the rod and burned it to ashes - unless, of course, it was _absorbed._ Is that so hard to grasp?

I mean, the only way it could possibly be erased from existence like that is if it had been absorbed, and in case you haven't noticed, Obito can do a lot more through his chakra rods than Pain/Nagato ever could - chakra-chaining biju Uzumaki-style and creating barriers, for instance. There is no other explanation, my friend. No other explanation at all.


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## ueharakk (Nov 25, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> The Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi arrow practically _disappeared_ on making contact with that chakra rod, and Amaterasu is supposed to be inextinguishable. Even if the arrow were to be blocked, it's still made of black flames that logically would have caught on to the rod and burned it to ashes - unless, of course, it was _absorbed._ Is that so hard to grasp?
> 
> I mean, the only way it could possibly be erased from existence like that is if it had been absorbed, and in case you haven't noticed, Obito can do a lot more through his chakra rods than Pain/Nagato ever could - chakra-chaining biju Uzumaki-style and creating barriers, for instance. There is no other explanation, my friend. No other explanation at all.


There is another explanation and one that makes a lot more sense at least to me and that's that it disappeared because enton burns for either 7 days or until its target is gone.  That's pretty much what I saw: the rods were almost instantly destroyed and the enton from the arrow had nothing left to burn just like when Itachi uses amaterasu to burn sasuke's fireball.

Obito has never even used any of the path's abilities why would the one time he does use it be through the chakra rods, something that was never implied the rods were capable of?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 26, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> There is another explanation and one that makes a lot more sense at least to me and that's that it disappeared because enton burns for either 7 days or until its target is gone.  That's pretty much what I saw: the rods were almost instantly destroyed and the enton from the arrow had nothing left to burn just like when Itachi uses amaterasu to burn sasuke's fireball.
> 
> Obito has never even used any of the path's abilities why would the one time he does use it be through the chakra rods, something that was never implied the rods were capable of?



Obito has made it pretty clear that he is capable of using Ningendo's techniques at the very least, he even attempted to use it on KCM Naruto at one point but ultimately failed to do so, due to the timely intervention of Kakashi and Gai. Both Madara and Obito also clearly stated that the latter was capable of using Naraka's revival jutsu. Hell, Tobi even seemed to be capable of using Preta's chakra absorption, as he managed to remove Kakashi's Kyuubi shroud with just a single touch. What else could've happened?

I don't believe for one second that just using Kamui could've used up all the chakra in Kakashi's shroud, that's BS. Base Kakashi alone can use it like five times, why would BM Kakashi lose his shroud just after using it once? Even if the target is the Juubi? It still requires a lot to believe, the Juubi is bigger than the other bijus, but not _that_ big. 

So the only explanation is that Obito flash-absorbed it using Preta Realm, when he touched Kakashi. 

Also, even if Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi _did_ destroy the chakra rod (but stopped), then what's stopping it from hurting Kurama? Combined with Naruto's Chou Odama FRS, it damaged a far, far more durable being than the Kyuubi. It seems that your argument only helps mine and hurts that of SuperSaiyaMan12's.  Cheers bro. 

I needed the help. 

In any case, any one of Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi, Enton: Yasaka Magatama, PS Yasaka Magatama, Amaterasu, PS Sword or PS Enton Sword can finish the Kyuubi off.


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## ueharakk (Nov 26, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Obito has made it pretty clear that he is capable of using Ningendo's techniques at the very least, he even attempted to use it on KCM Naruto at one point but ultimately failed to do so, due to the timely intervention of Kakashi and Gai. Both Madara and Obito also clearly stated that the latter was capable of using Naraka's revival jutsu. Hell, Tobi even seemed to be capable of using Preta's chakra absorption, as he managed to remove Kakashi's Kyuubi shroud with just a single touch. What else could've happened?
> 
> I don't believe for one second that just using Kamui could've used up all the chakra in Kakashi's shroud, that's BS. Base Kakashi alone can use it like five times, why would BM Kakashi lose his shroud just after using it once? Even if the target is the Juubi? It still requires a lot to believe, the Juubi is bigger than the other bijus, but not _that_ big.


If Obito could preta his entire shroud away in an instant, then I don't see why kakashi's base chakra reserves were still there and not preta'd away as well.  In addition to that, preta yields the absorption sphere and never is instant, it's either Kakashi used up his shroud to prep the juubi-level kamui or Obito suppressed the kyuubi chakra and only the kyuubi chakra when he touched him with the pseudo hashirama hand.

Also, I didn't doubt obito could have used human path and possibly all the paths back when they were interogating yamato, but it's my stance that after you create your own paths of pain, you are incapable of using those paths yourself and must use them through an avatar of some sort which is why wheelchair nagato was so vulnerable.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Also, even if Sasuke's Enton: Kagutsuchi _did_ destroy the chakra rod (but stopped), then what's stopping it from hurting Kurama? Combined with Naruto's Chou Odama FRS, it damaged a far, far more durable being than the Kyuubi. It seems that your argument only helps mine and hurts that of SuperSaiyaMan12's.  Cheers bro.
> 
> I needed the help.


I don't see how my argument helps yours, destroying chakra rods is something normal rasengans can do and you've already stated the part about kurama.  I also don't think it matters if my argument hurts SSJMans, i mean our conclusions on this thread are already different, it should come as no surprise that our reasoning to get to that conclusion should conflict at some points.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 27, 2013)

^Are you serious, Ueherakk? Nagato was _perfectly capable_ of using all of the Rinnegan's powers, even after creating his Pain Rikudou, and Obito canonically displayed the ability to use at least two Rinnegan powers (I wouldn't say any more about that because it would be a spoiler). Anyway, how else do you think that Nagato was capable of resurrecting all those he had killed in Konoha? How else do you think that he was capable of fighting Naruto and Killer Bee? He CLEARLY used the Rinnegan in either of those instances.

Wheelchair Nagato wasn't 'so vulnerable' at all, stop making stuff up. He could effortlessly absorb the entirety of Killer Bee's Version 2 chakra shroud in seconds after Bee attacked him, even though Preta Realm took a good deal of time just to absorb Naruto's Senjutsu chakra, which is only stronger and not bigger than his normal chakra (all Senjutsu does is introduce the power of nature into the chakra, making it more powerful), and his normal chaka sure as hell isn't anywhere near that of a Version 2 Bee's in quantity at least.

Also, you're wrong. Preta Realm can and often does activate instantly, even before the actual barrier becomes visible, unless you think that Nagato tanked Killer Bee's Version 2 Lariat (even though a bunch of exploding tags were enough to permanently cripple him), or unless you think that Preta Realm is durable enough to block a Senpo: Chou Odama Rasengan with his bare hands, even though a mere Kawazu Kumite strike instantly took out the guy. You're being a bit too forgetful here, mate. Please re-read the manga.

Yes, normal Rasengans can destroy chakra rods, that is true. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, and I'm not sure why you guys are even bringing chakra rods into the debate, considering that they're tiny inanimate objects whereas Kurama is a huge flesh-chakra-and-blood living being. Also, just because Amaterasu stops burning after it completely eradicates its target doesn't make it in the least bit incapable of hurting Kurama, all that has to happen is that the flames need to _(and will)_ bring the fox down first.

Hopefully you'll be more coherent and reasonable than SuperSaiyaMan12 and be able to understand me when I say that Kurama's chakra roars actually won't do shit against Amaterasu, not if tricky parts of his body have been ignited like the top of its head, its eyes, its butt and what not. Sasuke's Enton (alongside KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS) would've canonically one-shotted the 3rd Form Juubi if not for the latter's shedding ability, don't even dare to deny it as _everyone else_ both in manga and IRL (prior to the next chapter) saw it to be the case. Because that is the case. Some guys even keep trying to twist the truth by saying shit like Juubi was actually yawning and what not, lol.

Sure, Sasuke doesn't have KCM Naruto's support here, but a regular Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi and a FRS-enhanced Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi ultimately aren't different from each other, the end result is still the same and it's just that the FRS-enhanced version does its damage a hell lot faster. Sasuke also has far bigger and stronger versions of Susano'o to fire those Enton arrows from, so it's not like he'll be missing Naruto's support at all over here. Worst comes to worst, he has Senjutsu to increase his power here too.

Besides, EMS Sasuke's Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi rivalled KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS in power (with SM Naruto's FRS alone clearly doing a number on Kurama) and something like Enton would be far more troublesome for a huge monster like Kurama, as it can spread all over its body and do constant damage to it till it finally dies, whereas Chou Odama FRS dissipates right after it hits its target, regardless of whether it hurts said target at all or not. Enton is just more efficient here, as it was against the Cerberus.

Yes, Enton _might_ take more time to destroy a target, but it will also stay for as long as necessary, until or unless the target is finally destroyed - as you've noted - and the level of pain that Kurama will be suffering from will be profound, enough to keep it from using chakra roars and Biju Dama effectively, especially the latter. Not to mention that Kurama is also far, far less durable than the 3rd Form Juubi, so it's not like Sasuke will have much trouble in killing it through Entons anyway. It will be destroyed in mere seconds.

Also please don't use silly excuses like 'fire attacks do nothing to Kyuubi', like some others are doing. Enton is clearly _very different_ from regular fire, as it doesn't die out until it completely eradicates its target or until a total of seven days and seven nights (IIRC) passes, whichever comes first. Enton can also seemingly be used as sharp projectiles or weapons that then proceed to do burn damage to the opponent - again, different from regular fire. It also produces no smoke or anything. And it's obviously stronger. 

Plus, Katons couldn't do shit to Hachibi, but we've seen how MS Sasuke's Amaterasu sent it rampaging all over the place, out of pain. The Kyuubi is much stronger than the Hachibi, but the Juubi is also much stronger than the Kyuubi, and the Juubi sure as hell didn't enjoy being set on fire by EMS Sasuke's individual Enton , that I repeat, would ultimately have produced the same result as an Enton and FRS combo (which likely would be only twice as powerful as Enton by itself), due to the black flames' property of burning till the target fades or a week is over. And Sasuke can use even bigger and stronger Entons through his new Susano'o. There is no way in hell that Kurama is surviving this.

A 2nd Form Juubi Obito's Onmyoton chakra arms couldn't kill BSM Naruto or CS-enhanced v3 Susano'o EMS Sasuke (he attacked them seriously and with full killing intent), and last time I checked, it did hurt them, but it failed to do any serious damage to either of them. It's implied that Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o is at least as durable as the CS-enhanced v3 Susano'o, if not even more so, as it's his 'final' power-up and the one that ultimately proved effective against the 2nd Form Juubi Obito. And of course, there's more.

Keep in mind that a 1st form Juubi Obito using _regular chakra arms_ (that are canonically _much weaker_ than those made of Onmyoton, as the regular ones were being slapped away by BM Minato and BSM Naruto like flies, and ultimately destroyed by their Rasengan) easily ripped through the Hokages' combined barrier, in spite of Hashirama's SM-enhanced Mokuton (that is supposed to be biju kryptonite on its own) being involved. The same barrier that easily blocked the 3rd Form Juubi's Biju Dama, which is miles ahead of even Full Kurama's Biju Dama in terms of strength. I don't think you guys actually seem to understand how powerful Current Sasuke really is, to be really honest.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 27, 2013)

Sasuke should be able to take Kurama low diff. Even if he can't just tell it sit still while he burns it, I can't imagine him taking this past mid difficulty. A single Amaterasu will engulf it and leave it in pain, meaning it won't be able to focus and attack properly, and half assed attacks will not even scratch PS. 

It's idiotic to think a roar can get rid of the flames, and I don't even know where that notion comes from, unless people think a one direction roar is the equivalent of 360 degree Shinra Tensei. I'm not the best at physics, but that doesn't seem to work to me.

PS has more than enough durability to tank all but the strongest Bijuudama, even without Senjutsu. Any bijuudama with enough strength to break through would take too long to form, and weak attacks like roars will not phase PS. Kurama won't even be able to use a Bijuudama it's writhing in Pain, as that is something that requires significant focus.


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## ueharakk (Nov 27, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> ^Are you serious, Ueherakk? Nagato was _perfectly capable_ of using all of the Rinnegan's powers, even after creating his Pain Rikudou, and Obito canonically displayed the ability to use at least two Rinnegan powers (I wouldn't say any more about that because it would be a spoiler). Anyway, how else do you think that Nagato was capable of resurrecting all those he had killed in Konoha? How else do you think that he was capable of fighting Naruto and Killer Bee? He CLEARLY used the Rinnegan in either of those instances.


The ability to use Gedo mazou rinnetensei is the 7th path's power, the outer path, which is what konan said *Nagato was.*



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Wheelchair Nagato wasn't 'so vulnerable' at all, stop making stuff up. He could effortlessly absorb the entirety of Killer Bee's Version 2 chakra shroud in seconds after Bee attacked him, even though Preta Realm took a good deal of time just to absorb Naruto's Senjutsu chakra, which is only stronger and not bigger than his normal chakra (all Senjutsu does is introduce the power of nature into the chakra, making it more powerful), and his normal chaka sure as hell isn't anywhere near that of a Version 2 Bee's in quantity at least.


konan was practically begging SM Naruto not to kill Nagato, that puts him no where near edo nagato's level.

Edo nagato was also revived as if he never created his six paths just like Itachi was revived as if he just obtaind his MS and Sasori was revived as a young boy.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Also, you're wrong. Preta Realm can and often does activate instantly, even before the actual barrier becomes visible, unless you think that Nagato tanked Killer Bee's Version 2 Lariat (even though a bunch of exploding tags were enough to permanently cripple him), or unless you think that Preta Realm is durable enough to block a Senpo: Chou Odama Rasengan with his bare hands, even though a mere Kawazu Kumite strike instantly took out the guy. You're being a bit too forgetful here, mate. Please re-read the manga.


It's not about instant activation, it's about instant absorption as in absorbing all the chakra or attack in literally an instant.  Preta has never done this, it always takes at least a panel or two for it to absorb the jutsu, the chakra cloak on the other hand *disappears instantly.*



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Yes, normal Rasengans can destroy chakra rods, that is true. I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, and I'm not sure why you guys are even bringing chakra rods into the debate, considering that they're tiny inanimate objects whereas Kurama is a huge flesh-chakra-and-blood living being. Also, just because Amaterasu stops burning after it completely eradicates its target doesn't make it in the least bit incapable of hurting Kurama, all that has to happen is that the flames need to _(and will)_ bring the fox down first.


Been over this already.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Hopefully you'll be more coherent and reasonable than SuperSaiyaMan12 and be able to understand me when I say that Kurama's chakra roars actually won't do shit against Amaterasu, not if tricky parts of his body have been ignited like the top of its head, its eyes, its butt and what not. Sasuke's Enton (alongside KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS) would've canonically one-shotted the 3rd Form Juubi if not for the latter's shedding ability, don't even dare to deny it as _everyone else_ both in manga and IRL (prior to the next chapter) saw it to be the case. Because that is the case. Some guys even keep trying to twist the truth by saying shit like Juubi was actually yawning and what not, lol.


I don't think the roar should dispell the flames at all if it lands on kurama.  the only way the roar protects kurama is if the flames haven't landed on kurama, but instead are traveling towards him.  Then I think the roar will dispell those flames or blow away the projectile depending on how powerful the projectile is.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Sure, Sasuke doesn't have KCM Naruto's support here, but a regular Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi and a FRS-enhanced Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi ultimately aren't different from each other, the end result is still the same and it's just that the FRS-enhanced version does its damage a hell lot faster. Sasuke also has far bigger and stronger versions of Susano'o to fire those Enton arrows from, so it's not like he'll be missing Naruto's support at all over here. Worst comes to worst, he has Senjutsu to increase his power here too.
> 
> Besides, EMS Sasuke's Susano'o: Enton Kagutsuchi rivalled KCM Naruto's Chou Odama FRS in power (with SM Naruto's FRS alone clearly doing a number on Kurama) and something like Enton would be far more troublesome for a huge monster like Kurama, as it can spread all over its body and do constant damage to it till it finally dies, whereas Chou Odama FRS dissipates right after it hits its target, regardless of whether it hurts said target at all or not. Enton is just more efficient here, as it was against the Cerberus.


I'm not arguing COFRS is better at taking out kurama, nor do i say that Enton doesn't eventually kill kurama.  If you read my initial post, I say it's either a win for kurama or a draw since I think Kurama has the firepower to defeat EMS Sasuke and will use it before he gets killed by enton.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Yes, Enton _might_ take more time to destroy a target, but it will also stay for as long as necessary, until or unless the target is finally destroyed - as you've noted - and the level of pain that Kurama will be suffering from will be profound, enough to keep it from using chakra roars and Biju Dama effectively, especially the latter. Not to mention that Kurama is also far, far less durable than the 3rd Form Juubi, so it's not like Sasuke will have much trouble in killing it through Entons anyway. It will be destroyed in mere seconds.


this is where we differ.  I think kurama's pain tolerance and durability is much higher than the hachibi's considering what it takes from Naruto in their fight.



Uzamaki Nagato said:


> Also please don't use silly excuses like 'fire attacks do nothing to Kyuubi', like some others are doing. Enton is clearly _very different_ from regular fire, as it doesn't die out until it completely eradicates its target or until a total of seven days and seven nights (IIRC) passes, whichever comes first. Enton can also seemingly be used as sharp projectiles or weapons that then proceed to do burn damage to the opponent - again, different from regular fire. It also produces no smoke or anything. And it's obviously stronger.
> 
> Plus, Katons couldn't do shit to Hachibi, but we've seen how MS Sasuke's Amaterasu sent it rampaging all over the place, out of pain. The Kyuubi is much stronger than the Hachibi, but the Juubi is also much stronger than the Kyuubi, and the Juubi sure as hell didn't enjoy being set on fire by EMS Sasuke's individual Enton , that I repeat, would ultimately have produced the same result as an Enton and FRS combo (which likely would be only twice as powerful as Enton by itself), due to the black flames' property of burning till the target fades or a week is over. And Sasuke can use even bigger and stronger Entons through his new Susano'o. There is no way in hell that Kurama is surviving this.
> 
> ...


most of this stuff is either things I agree with or stuff I've already given a counterargument for.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Nov 28, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> The ability to use Gedo mazou rinnetensei is the 7th path's power, the outer path, which is what konan said *Nagato was.*
> 
> 
> konan was practically begging SM Naruto not to kill Nagato, that puts him no where near edo nagato's level.



And yet Nagato seemed quite confident in his chances against SM Naruto, even saying 'Let's finish this' to him. 

Plus, Obito isn't Nagato. Obito has used at least 2 Rinnegan techniques right after using the Neo Pain.



ueharakk said:


> Edo nagato was also revived as if he never created his six paths just like Itachi was revived as if he just obtaind his MS and Sasori was revived as a young boy.



What are you talking about? Edo Nagato was originally revived in his white-haired, emaciated state - just as he had been after using the Pain Rikudou and Gedo Rinne Tensei. Hizashi was revived with the caged bird seal on his head. Sarutobi was revived as the frail old man he was in Part I, not as a shinobi in his prime or anything. Kinkaku and Ginkaku were revived with the Kyuubi chakra still in their bodies. I could go on, but its frankly quite obvious. Madara is a special case due to the experiments carried out on his body.

In short, pretty much every character was revived in the exact same state they originally were in just prior to their death. Itachi and Sasori are special cases, though. The former was suffering from a flesh-eating disease, but didn't have to suffer from that as an Edo Tensei thanks to the Edo regeneration being in play, thus allowing him to spam Amaterasu and Susano'o without a hitch. As for Sasori? Edo Tensei revived him as a young boy because that was the state he was in before he 'died', i.e. before he switched over to a puppet body, obviously killing the human body as a result of the latter losing its soul. Kabuto used Sasori's human DNA to revive him, so obviously he came back as a human.



ueharakk said:


> It's not about instant activation, it's about instant absorption as in absorbing all the chakra or attack in literally an instant.  Preta has never done this, it always takes at least a panel or two for it to absorb the jutsu, the chakra cloak on the other hand *disappears instantly.*



It did take one panel.

Been over this already.



ueharakk said:


> I don't think the roar should dispell the flames at all if it lands on kurama.  the only way the roar protects kurama is if the flames haven't landed on kurama, but instead are traveling towards him.  Then I think the roar will dispell those flames or blow away the projectile depending on how powerful the projectile is.



Kurama isn't reacting to Amaterasu or blowing away Susano'o Enton: Kagutsuchi any time soon.



ueharakk said:


> I'm not arguing COFRS is better at taking out kurama, nor do i say that Enton doesn't eventually kill kurama.  If you read my initial post, I say it's either a win for kurama or a draw since I think Kurama has the firepower to defeat EMS Sasuke and will use it before he gets killed by enton.



And I've already said that if Juubi Obito couldn't kill EMS Sasuke with something much, much stronger than the Juubi's own Biju Dama, which in turn far surpasses anything that the Kyuubi can use in terms of offense, than Kurama has no hope of harming Sasuke. We don't have so much as one panel of evidence that even suggests a Biju Dama is capable of harming a Perfect Susano'o, quite honestly. It took Hashirama's SM-enhanced Shinsusenju to destroy it, and that far surpasses Kurama's Biju Dama in strength too.

If anything, the opposite is probably true, as Madara's shield-less Perfect Susano'o took a direct Biju Dama from the full Kurama while 'leveling up' and came out with zero damage. Sasuke can not only use that same level of Susano'o too, but he also has a shield to go with his Susano'o (something that Madara didn't have), possibly even Itachi's Yata no Kagami (this is speculative I admit). So Kurama can't do shit to him in the end, no matter how hard he tries. It's not like his Biju Dama can't be interrupted mid-formation anyway.



ueharakk said:


> this is where we differ.  I think kurama's pain tolerance and durability is much higher than the hachibi's considering what it takes from Naruto in their fight.



Yes, Kurama's durability is much higher than the Hachibi's own. Pain tolerance, though?

There is no proof of that yet. Both of them have equal pain tolerance, if anything. Can you prove me otherwise?

In any case, Kurama sure as hell doesn't have more pain tolerance or durability than the Juubi.



ueharakk said:


> most of this stuff is either things I agree with or stuff I've already given a counterargument for.



Comparing crater sizes is only such a good idea when comparing very similar attacks, like two Rasenshurikens or two Biju Damas. I mean, the Sandaime Raikage's strongest Ippon Nukite wouldn't produce anywhere as huge a crater as his son's Raiger Bomb or even Start of Part II Sakura's Okasho ever could, and you should remember that.

Does that mean Ippon Nukite < Raiger Bomb and Okasho? Of course not. There are more examples.

KN6 Naruto's Biju Dama can create far bigger craters than SM Naruto's FRS can. Yet not only was KN6 quite capable of tanking the explosion of his own (admittedly not full-power) Biju Dama without too much damage, he also took a lot more damage from the SM FRS as the full Kurama himself (who is obviously a lot more durable than KN6 is), with the latter knocking him to the ground and doing so much damage to him that he couldn't even get up for the first few seconds. So crater comparisons are meaningless here.


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