# Doflamingo vs. The Strawhats (without Luffy)



## Empathy (Jun 6, 2015)

*Location:* Dressrosa
*Mindset:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga
*Distance:* 50 meters
Inspired by the other Doflamingo versus Strawhats thread. Restrict parasite if necessary for the strawhats' win. Add one of his executives (weakest one necessary to win) if Doflamingo somehow loses too badly.


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## barreltheif (Jun 6, 2015)

Doffy wins, but they can probably push him to high diff.
Luffy and Law lost to him, and Luffy+Law > the rest of the SHs.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro ~ Law and Sanji + middle trio can possibly beat G2/G3 Luffy but it isn't enough to beat Mingo


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## Amol (Jun 7, 2015)

Luffy > Zoro and Law > Sanji + Rest of Crew
Doflamingo should win .


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## KamiKira (Jun 7, 2015)

Is this some kind of joke?Sanji and zoro aren't enough to push doffy bro.....


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Jun 7, 2015)

Luffy and Law are both stronger than Zoro and Sanji but even with the strawhats backing them i doubt it makes a difference  so DD takes it very high diff atleast i guess


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## Bernkastel (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro and Sanji will have to do the hard work and they're weaker than Luffy/Law.Rest of the SHs can be easilly one shot.
DD with high diff.


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## November (Jun 7, 2015)

DD destroys de SHs


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## Finalbeta (Jun 7, 2015)

He doesn't destroy anything here

You still have Zoro + Sanji, one can watch the other's back, basically Zoro won't fall in Mingo's strings and will watch Sanji's back, if they cooperate well they can push Doflamingo to mid (high) - high (low) difficulty


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## MYJC (Jun 7, 2015)

Doflamingo mid-diffs. 

He distracts Sanji with a string clone while he focuses on taking out Zoro. Once Zoro is beaten it's pretty much a wrap as nobody else is a threat. Sanji lacks the power to do any real damage to Doffy and the rest of the crew are basically irrelevant here.


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

Black Knight got shredded into pieces by a single Jet Gatling and got taken apart by Abdullah and Jeet. How exactly is it going to hold off Sanji?


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## MYJC (Jun 7, 2015)

It's just a distraction, not something that would beat him or provide a serious threat. 

I'd say it can hold Sanji's attention for a few minutes and give Doffy time to focus on Zoro. Remember, mindset is IC so Sanji isn't going to just use one of his strongest attacks right away.


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

An IC Sanji knows they're going to have to be dead serious to stand any chance against Doflamingo. An IC Sanji knows he can't afford to risk leaving Zoro alone trying to handle Doflamingo. So I don't see him messing around and taking longer than he needs to with Black Knight. It's not very durable and Sanji with his COO should be able to outspeed it easily enough. A DJ Spectre takes it out within 10 seconds. Sanji isn't a fighter who tends to screw around against someone he knows is his enemy. He usually goes for the throat pretty hard.


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## blueframe01 (Jun 7, 2015)

The SH's win. people seem to forget that Dofla too Law and Luffy separately. He never really had a fight with them at the same time, which makes a world of a difference. In fact the closest they came fighting together is when Law was already badly injured & Luffy got himself all bleeding thanks to Bellamy. Had both fought Dofla without distractions / injuries, no doubt they would have ended the fight way faster.

While Zoro & Sanji are no doubt weaker than Luffy & Law, together they are a lot stronger than either Luffy or Law. Dofla would have a tough time fighting both and IMO if the duo gets to wear down Dofla enough, the rest of the SH's can then start helping out in the battle, to secure the win.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 7, 2015)

Can Doflamingo create a clone and fly out of the way for the clone to use birdcage? If he can pull it off successfully, the SH are dead


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2015)

Dofla with very high difficulty (with Parasite in play).
The SHs could _maybe_ win without Parasite.


Also, I really hate how people still think Zoro is as strong as Law.
What is this, 2014?


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro cut a mountain and vastly outclassed a High Executive without bringing his trump. He has yet to even take a scratch by an opponent. Oda is continuing his near-untouchable portrayal, even to the point of letting him clash directly with a Marine Admiral without looking nearly as outclassed as you'd expect.

Zoro's chances of being as strong as Law have gone up, not down since... uh, since 2014, I guess. Completely discounting Ashura's potential before you've seen a glimpse of it post-Mihawk training. Not cool Tanman.

All these people prematurely putting a hard cap on Zoro's power without having seen him even take a scratch should know full well how likely they are to have to eat their words once Zoro goes full-on balls to the wall 100%. Just as much as all these people putting Sanji far down in the mud are. Yet people still continue to do it. It's like they haven't really read One Piece before.


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## Canute87 (Jun 7, 2015)

tanman said:


> Dofla with very high difficulty (with Parasite in play).
> The SHs could _maybe_ win without Parasite.
> 
> *
> ...



He's actually stronger.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 7, 2015)

Law's mountain slash>>>>>>>Zoro's Pica slash

This was also from a Law that was brutally beaten up by Vergo prior to cutting a legit monster haki user and the legit mountain in half. A no-name slash to boot. Law>/=Zoro, not the other way around. 

Law was fighting against both Doflamingo&Fujitora for longer periods of time than Zoro did.


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2015)

Several things wrong with that.
Zoro's biggest slash was very impressive, but it's practicality against more agile opponents is dubious considering Oda showed us very explicitly how slow and easily exhaustible Pica was. We both know that the high executives, besides Vergo, fell short of expectations. Kyros, a much weaker fighter, also vastly outclassed a high executive, Diamante. Kyros essentially ended it in one blow and took damage from Diamante only because of his pride.

Being near-untouchable is unimpressive when you face lackluster opponents. Should I be blown away that he was able to easily defeat people, like Monet and Pica, that couldn't even tag someone weaker like Sanji. Speaking of Sanji, non Zoro characters like Sanji have been unfairly dehyped for facing much stronger opponents like Vergo and Doflamingo. So no, I don't think to there's any good reason to go NLF all over Zoro. I think we've seen what he can do offensively, because I think Pica was meant to be a weak opponent with an ability that could still show off Zoro's best attacks. Zoro not having shown off his durability isn't the same as him not having show off his DC and overall level. As far as Fujitora goes, I think the fact that people take that as a big showing is more representative of an overestimation of the admirals and an underestimation of people on or approaching Doflamingo's level (not just Zoro). 

Law, on the other hand, has proven himself to have stamina on par with the likes of Luffy and a mastery of his ability that can subvert people with more CoA skill than Zoro. On top of that, Law's room allows him to surpass Zoro's scale and how he accomplishes that is irrelevant in battle. He can tango with Dofla, which makes it highly doubtful that Zoro is faster. And he's proven himself to have monstrous durability. Stack that with teleportation, healing, and haxx that would have taken down Dofla, were it not for his healing ability and Zoro is simply no match. I'm not going to use a lack feats as a credit for Zoro.

The funny thing is that it's basically impossible for me to ever have to eat my words because by the time Zoro faces an opponent that can truly match him, Zoro will be stronger.

But even then, like with EL, Zoro fans will I'm sure hype his very tangible feats and very tangible power level way beyond what could reasonably surmised from the manga. Asura is case in point. It's a singe move. It's not like DJ or gears, which established entire movesets. It's a single move that may evolve in the future. Not having seen it since EL doesn't somehow imply Zoro has a much higher power level. It's just one fucking move.


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## Tenma (Jun 7, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Law's mountain slash>>>>>>>Zoro's Pica slash
> 
> This was also from a Law that was brutally beaten up by Vergo prior to cutting a legit monster haki user and the legit mountain in half. A no-name slash to boot. Law>/=Zoro, not the other way around.
> 
> Law was fighting against both Doflamingo&Fujitora for longer periods of time than Zoro did.



A hollow mountain compared to a _city sized_ solid mass of rock. Which he sent flying several hundred feet into the air.

Law is more powerful than Zoro but let's not downplay Zoro's feat here.


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2015)

That was longer than I meant for it to be.
I'll read your reply, but I won't respond. It'd probably turn into a time commitment if I did.



Tenma said:


> A hollow mountain compared to a _city sized_ solid mass of rock. Which he sent flying several hundred feet into the air.



Hollow? City, rather than town? Several Hundred Feet? I don't recall those things.
Were the last two calced? What are Pica's measurements?


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## Kaiser (Jun 7, 2015)

The Sanzen Sekai striking speed is actually much faster than Law's slashes. There is always a lag when Law uses his room slashes when Zoro(with his sanzen sekai) cut Pica's golem dozens of times, moved from rocks to rocks(mid air), finished Pica's real body off and came back to safetly all that before the upper half of the golem(that was sent flying by the initial slash) moved an inch(barely)

From what we've seen, Law and Zoro are roughly on the same level. You can notice it with the similarity of their feats and portrayal. Both of their best feats are similar(defeating Doflamingo's top2 capable of Full Body haki while leveling up mountains)

Law's greatest room(that sacrificed his life span) was around 2times as big as Pica's golem, so his mountain level slash in Punk Hazard must have been much smaller. Zoro's slash against Pica's golem replicated it multiple times and that is without Asura. 

Zoro has greater physical strength(he could resist a stronger gravity than the one that put Law down), better swordsmanship. It's hard to compare their armament though but the way they've been portrayed(Law could completely block Doflamingo's string that could cut through Luffy's armament when armament is Zoro's speciality, cut through FBH), suggest it's roughly on the same level. Law has great mobility inside his room. Hard to rate the difference in their endurance either, but it's probably roughly similar too if we compare preskip Zoro's feats and evaluate it with power-inflation comparatively to Law's current one

Law also has a trump card(Gamma Knife) that works against higher level opponents(Doflamingo) which i believe is comparable to Zoro's trump card(Asura) and depending on how post-timeskip Asura upgraded, it's actually possible for Zoro to be stronger, at least with current display(could change with time)


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

tanman said:


> Several things wrong with that.
> Zoro's biggest slash was very impressive, but it's practicality against more agile opponents is dubious considering Oda showed us very explicitly how slow and easily exhaustible Pica was. We both know that the high executives, besides Vergo, fell short of expectations. Kyros, a much weaker fighter, also vastly outclassed a high executive, Diamante. Kyros essentially ended it in one blow and took damage from Diamante only because of his pride.
> 
> Being near-untouchable is unimpressive when you face lackluster opponents. Should I be blown away that he was able to easily defeat people, like Monet and Pica, that couldn't even tag someone weaker like Sanji. Speaking of Sanji, non Zoro characters like Sanji have been unfairly dehyped for facing much stronger opponents like Vergo and Doflamingo. So no, I don't think to there's any good reason to go NLF all over Zoro. I think we've seen what he can do offensively, because I think Pica was meant to be a weak opponent with an ability that could still show off Zoro's best attacks. Zoro not having shown off his durability isn't the same as him not having show off his DC and overall level. As far as Fujitora goes, I think the fact that people take that as a big showing is more representative of an overestimation of the admirals and an underestimation of people on or approaching Doflamingo's level (not just Zoro).
> ...



Practicality against agile opponents? Since when does any of Zoro's moves, bar maybe Ashura itself, have that? That's a godawful excuse to downplay him but I expect no less from you. Zoro's moves are all the same. They cut things head-on. It's the sheer power of the cut that's impressive. It means that if someone gets cut by Zoro they're going to take horrendous amounts of damage. That's a significant thing in a time when durability and endurance keeps going up and COA is added to the mix to further increase it. His cutting power has reached extreme levels, to a point where even an Admiral calls it ferocious from seeing a fairly basic attack. If we compare it to Doflamingo's durability, even Law was able to physically cut through Doflamingo's COA Hardening. And Law can't come anywhere near replicating Zoro's feats of sheer physical cutting power.

Oh. So because Tanman says so, Oda's portrayal of having even in-universe characters, like Tashigi, who hang around the likes of Smoker and Vergo, be absolutely baffled at Zoro's strength is "unimpressive" because the opponents themselves were "weak". Zoro being untouched for 200 chapters coming straight out of his training with Mihawk, a top-tier, a quality he and Luffy are alone in the crew in sharing, doesn't mean anything. Zoro has shown off his DC. Yes. It is *insanely* high. It's right up there with Luffy and Law. Which should give you a clue as to the "level" Oda is putting Zoro on. Zoro has the DC but you think when he faces a proper opponent it will be revealed he is lackluster in other areas of combat? That's what you're going all-in on, putting all your money toward and sneering at people who think otherwise? Better get insurance. He hasn't shown off his "overall level". No. How can he have shown the cap of his overall level, aside from of course saying it's not going to be higher than Luffy's, when not a single opponent not named Fujitora has even significantly pushed him? That is YOU putting a cap on him based on your own bias. It's absolutely nothing else.

Your words drip with ridiculous amounts of bias. This is exactly the kind of thing that comes from people who downplay Sanji based on him simply not having had as fair a chance to show himself as much as others. You put a hard cap on Zoro in multiple areas while barely having seen a single thing from him and pretend as though the fact that Law HAD THE CHANCE to show his stuff is somehow a point in his favor over Zoro. It's not, it never has been and it never will be. By this logic Law was stronger than Luffy before Luffy showed G4. This is the exact same logic that could have been used to attempt to justify saying that, and it would have been dead wrong. Just as you now going all-in for Law >>> Zoro risks being dead wrong once Zoro gets to do the equivalent of what Luffy did with G4, and just as people going Sanji = shit risk being dead wrong once Sanji gets that chance. You need something that actually _suggests_ it. Not just the absence of evidence for it. Portrayal and history make it a *very, very* reasonable thing to believe that Zoro is "up there" with Luffy and Law. It's not confirmed. But it's not remotely to be laughed at. The sneering arrogance of you anti-Zoro clubbers at constantly putting a hard cap on a man who has nothing short of consistently amazing portrayal and hype since the timeskip is endlessly puzzling.

And Law won't? Are you suggesting Law didn't grow at all this arc despite undergoing much harsher trials than Zoro? That's funny. I could swear that undergoing harsh trials is usually how people grow in power in One Piece. And that the harsher the trial, the more they usually grow. So if anything, the one who will have had _more_ time to grow by the time Zoro gets feats that are comparable in terms of the opponent's strength and effort exerted would be Law.

Ooh. So now we're at the downplay Ashura without having seen it stage by excusing it by being "just one move". How exciting. So remind me again of that time Zoro fought a grueling battle against a certain man and struggled very hard against him, possibly so much he couldn't win at all, and then _something_ happened the moment he used Ashura. I know something did but I can't quite remember what. Please do remind me.


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## Finalbeta (Jun 7, 2015)

Law wipes the floor with Sanji, Zoro won't be able to Law is stronger


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## nfcnorth (Jun 7, 2015)

I think the SH's have a strong shot. Zoro and Sanji together are a handful for Doflamingo but the fact the other crew members are here makes a world of diffrence. Nami is actually very useful against Doflamingo in the fact that she can take away his flight capabilities by moving all clouds away from the battlefield. Given how much support she has this is likely to happen. Plus mirages and invisibility can come in handy. I also think her attacks will be more effective than most expect.

Robin can probably at least be a very strong nuisance with her DF and being able to spawn limbs out of nowhere. Sure clutch may not be able to knock out Doflamingo but it may be enough to stop a potentially deadly attack or allow Zoro/Sanji to get a couple good hits in. Plus her cloning ability probably will at least do something against Doflamingo (even if it is be a distraction). 

Ussop did earn himself 5 stars over the likes of Luffy,Law and the rest of the crew so IC Doflamingo might target him first out of rage. A fact the Zoro and Sanji might be able to take advantage of and allow them to get a hit or two in. Ussop's arsenal also lets him be a very good distraction with all his dials. Combined with Nami's mirages and Brook's musical abilities (fantasia) Doflamingo is going to have his handful even attempting to hit the crew. Plus with Choppers healing it is not a guarantee that any injured SH will stay out of the fight for long.

Sure you can argue the SH's have a lot to do to win this but at the same time so does Doflamingo. Either way I don't think this would be an easy battle for the victor and who ever wins is going to be pushed to high difficulty at the very least.


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2015)

Said I wasn't going to reply, but I didn't expect the ad hominem. So fuck you right back.


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

Pointing out the arrogance of a group of people who seem to have a very hard time seeing that they're being arrogant is not an ad hominem.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro and Law are probably about equal.

Assuming Zoro is slightly above law in a overall tier ranking, 
Law wins regardless as he is a horrible match up for Zoro.

Also  Ashura downplay. Ashura is extremely powerful. Turned Kakus ultimate attack into mist. Their was no equal clash, no delayed struggle, ashura tossed it aside like toilet paper. Ashura is G3 without the drawbacks. G3 on a Man who did not need a Attack power boost to one shot his opponents to begin with.


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## tanman (Jun 7, 2015)

Can we be friends Coru?
Do you like music? I like music.


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## KamiKira (Jun 7, 2015)

People are arguing whether law is stronger than zoro or not????Da fuq?Law mid diffs zoro at the best people.


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## King plasma (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro is probably not stronger than Law, but he is definitely right up there with him. 

Without the use of parasite the SH's should win. With parasite the SH's would still have a decent chance of winning. All the SH's would end up dying except for Zoro and Sanji.


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## Luke (Jun 7, 2015)

Doflamingo wins, high difficulty. Zoro gives him by far the most trouble, and with Sanji for support it'll be a tough fight. 

The rest of the Straw Hats might do a little damage, but ultimately are just in the way.


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## Coruscation (Jun 7, 2015)

You single out one statement and rip it from its context. You reduce Zoro's role in leading up to it to nothing more than a mention alongside Sanji and Luffy as if they were equivalents. Dishonest and unworthy argumentation. Yes it does hype Zoro exactly like I said. *Zoro* is the catalyst for that statement. Not Sanji and not Luffy. Zoro. She saw both of them, and I'm sure she was impressed enough, but it was Zoro's feat of crushing an opponent by literally scaring her into a blubbering mess by merely flaunting his strength that made her go into outright disbelief at the thing that just happened before her. That's the entire point I was making. This woman hangs around Smoker and Vergo and knows their strengths yet could hardly believe what she was seeing when Zoro merely hinted at his power. That is MAJOR hype for Zoro. That is a MAJOR "when Zoro goes 100% heads will roll for real" hint which some people need to take already instead of putting hard caps on his strength with zero evidence. The scene hypes Zoro first and foremost and the rest of the crew secondarily -- by extension. It also hypes the crew by having Zoro be the example of their power. *That should also tell people something yet it seems to fly right over their heads. * Let's not make this another "TB is nearly as much about Sanji as it is about Zoro" incident.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 7, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> You single out one statement and rip it from its context. You reduce Zoro's role in leading up to it to nothing more than a mention alongside Sanji and Luffy as if they were equivalents. Dishonest and unworthy argumentation. Yes it does hype Zoro exactly like I said. *Zoro* is the catalyst for that statement. Not Sanji and not Luffy. Zoro. She saw both of them, and I'm sure she was impressed enough, but it was Zoro's feat of crushing an opponent by literally scaring her into a blubbering mess by merely flaunting his strength that made her go into outright disbelief at the thing that just happened before her. That's the entire point I was making. This woman hangs around Smoker and Vergo and knows their strengths yet could hardly believe what she was seeing when Zoro merely hinted at his power. That is MAJOR hype for Zoro. That is a MAJOR "when Zoro goes 100% heads will roll for real" hint which some people need to take already instead of putting hard caps on his strength with zero evidence. The scene hypes Zoro first and foremost and the rest of the crew secondarily -- by extension. It also hypes the crew by having Zoro be the example of their power. *That should also tell people something yet it seems to fly right over their heads. * Let's not make this another "TB is nearly as much about Sanji as it is about Zoro" incident.




_Zoro's the last relevant piece added to the equation, which results in a final statement directed at all the previous elements and not Zoro alone. Not that i'm disagreeing with the fact that Zoro proving himself overwhelmingly superior to an Executive was impressive, but forgetting to mention minor elements such as the fact that Tashigi was not only impressed by Zoro, through each step of building an argument for his case will lead to an overall somewhat skewed image of his hype/potential strength.

Though i have to admit that i was somewhat surprised to see Zoro being underrated in some threads in recent times, especially in relation to his captain. As much as some want to unreasonably promote his equality with Luffy, others have shown lack of respect for his first mate / second strongest M3 status, as they have shown lack of respect for the relevance of the M3 extensively showcased dynamic as a whole._


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## Dellinger (Jun 7, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Law's mountain slash>>>>>>>Zoro's Pica slash
> 
> This was also from a Law that was brutally beaten up by Vergo prior to cutting a legit monster haki user and the legit mountain in half. A no-name slash to boot. Law>/=Zoro, not the other way around.
> 
> Law was fighting against both Doflamingo&Fujitora for longer periods of time than Zoro did.



Running away the whole damn time against half assed opponents is not fighting.


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## Canute87 (Jun 7, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> *Law's mountain slash>Zoro's Pica slash*



don't exaggerate. 

Agreed.  



> This was also from a Law that was brutally beaten up by Vergo prior to cutting a legit monster haki user and the legit mountain in half. A no-name slash to boot. Law>/=Zoro, not the other way around.



The gear 2 punch Luffy used on Lucci was his strongest onslaught and he was at his "weakest".  Don't underestimate will power.



> Law was fighting against both Doflamingo&Fujitora for longer periods of time than Zoro did.



Law never clashed with fujitora directly, and flamingo was playing around with him.


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## Dunno (Jun 7, 2015)

Law, Zoro and Luffy are all comparable in strength. Until Zoro has a chance to go all out it's impossible to say who is the weakest or strongest out of those three.


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## Cosmicflash12 (Jun 7, 2015)

Zoro can win by himself


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## The 64 Gates of Jyuuken (Jun 8, 2015)

Didn't Doflamingo damn near oneshot Sanji with Overheat? 

Doflamingo will take some damage, mostly from Zoro, but eventually he'll control him and use him to defeat most of the SHs

Doflamingo mid difficulty 

Also Law> Zoro 

Why would the FM of one of the Supernova Monster Trio captains be stronger than one of the captains of the Supernova Monster Trio?


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 8, 2015)

Law's mountain slash >= Zoro's Sanzen Sekai

Law's:   17.7 megatons
Zoro's:   11.5 megatons

Both are close enough to not matter + Zoro most likely has Asura and weren't both slashes casually done anyway?


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## Jossaff (Jun 8, 2015)

DD mid diffs at worst , he's just on another level.


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## Dellinger (Jun 8, 2015)

Dunno said:


> Law, Zoro and Luffy are all comparable in strength. Until Zoro has a chance to go all out it's impossible to say who is the weakest or strongest out of those three.



Luffy is stronger unless you think Law and Zoro can smack Doflamingo around like Luffy did.


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2015)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Zoro's the last relevant piece added to the equation, which results in a final statement directed at all the previous elements and not Zoro alone. Not that i'm disagreeing with the fact that Zoro proving himself overwhelmingly superior to an Executive was impressive, but forgetting to mention minor elements such as the fact that Tashigi was not only impressed by Zoro, through each step of building an argument for his case will lead to an overall somewhat skewed image of his hype/potential strength.
> 
> Though i have to admit that i was somewhat surprised to see Zoro being underrated in some threads in recent times, especially in relation to his captain. As much as some want to unreasonably promote his equality with Luffy, others have shown lack of respect for his first mate / second strongest M3 status, as they have shown lack of respect for the relevance of the M3 extensively showcased dynamic as a whole._



I didn't forget or leave out a single thing. You are the one who took issue with something there was nothing to take issue with. I said nothing more than that a woman who hangs out around Smoker and Vergo was absolutely baffled at Zoro's strength. That, those specific words, is an unarguable truth. Tashigi was baffled at the fact that doing what Zoro did was even possible, and it was his action that tipped the scales and made her shockedly exclaim "just how strong have they become?!". She was baffled at his strength. My statement was 100% true and I didn't leave out anything that changes anything about the situation. If I had been trying to use the point to somehow argue that Zoro >>> Sanji then pointing out that it wasn't exclusively Zoro who was hyped in that scene would be relevant. But I was not. I was using it in an argument or Zoro vs Law, the latter of which is, obviously, not even a member of the crew. So whatever you think was objectionable about it isn't anything else than a problem that exists only in your mind. 

As I said, Zoro being used as the very example of how astonishingly strong the crew has become only _reinforces_ the extremely high level of respect one should have for his post-Mihawk strength. But which it has become saddeningly commonplace to sneeringly refuse to show any of. It goes for Sanji too that a lot of people jump to conclusions when they should be well aware that they're doing it with incomplete data and going against the history of the series and even the post timeskip trend of still showing the M3 as the M3. Both people who downplay Zoro and those who downplay Sanji are likely to have to eat their words. It's just sad when someone who would chastise others for doing one then goes on to do the other. I know Tanman shows more respect for Sanji than nearly any other poster here, which is why then going on to condescendingly demean the idea of Zoro being as strong as he has a very long history of being, as official material has stated that he is, as absolutely nothing actively goes against and several things arguably support is so very hypocritical. It's unworthy of a rational poster, plain and simple.


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## Thdyingbreed (Jun 8, 2015)

Law/Zoro are pretty much equal the feats show that pretty damn clearly if they fight it would be an extreme difficulty fight for either combatant anyone saying otherwise would have to ignore all the evidence we've been given.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 8, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> I said nothing more than that a woman who hangs out around Smoker and Vergo was absolutely baffled at Zoro's strength. That, those specific words, is an unarguable truth. Tashigi was baffled at the fact that doing what Zoro did was even possible, and it was his action that tipped the scales and made her shockedly exclaim "just how strong have they become?!". She was baffled at his strength.



_She was baffled at the way he used his strength superiority to win the fight. Strength is part of the equation, but using it in such a way is what she found surprising. Monet was always aware that she's neither as strong as Luffy or as Zoro, but Zoro was the only one to make use of his strength superiority in such a manner. Does his personality not play a role in that ? The fact that among his peers he's one of the most fierce, willing to show his fangs as the wild beast he compared himself with ? Your post suggests the fact that Zoro appeared more impressive to her than Smoker or Vergo overall,  while it was solely the manner in which he used his strength superiority that was truly outstanding.

Not that i would necessarily disagree with Zoro being as strong or stronger than the two, all appear for the most part on a similar level, with Zoro being favored by his latest set of feats in an arc that did not involve the two mentioned beforehand.

For Zoro vs Law, Law was more impressive throughout Dressrosa. That image of Fujitora's attack causing a huge crater, with the three of them preserving their foothold or his extended clashes with Doflamingo build up to a superior portrayal. I don't think Zoro is as strong as him overall, but he is comparable and definitely not far behind._


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## Coruscation (Jun 8, 2015)

It's not "the way he used his strength" as if that was something completely different than "his strength". Do you by any chance make a living out of describing Zoro-related scenes in as subtly downplaying ways as possible? Do you perhaps have a 1000-page document containing multiple ways to sneakily downplay every single scene in the manga where Zoro is being hyped? First you talk about something completely different and now that I've disputed that the next batch of excuses come out. It was the sheer overwhelming dominance of his strength that baffled her. That the mere suggestion of what would happen if he was actually willing to hurt was able to turn such an opponent into a frothing hapless wreck. She was astonished that it was even possible to do such a thing, and followed that thought with one of how unbelievably _powerful _the Straw Hats must have become. From seeing Zoro do that thing. And so your conclusion is: *this has absolutely nothing to do with Zoro's level of strength being incredibly high from her perspective. It's solely him using his strength in a specific way and that has no implications for his level of strength at all*. Like I said you must be a professional spinner =/

Similar level. Yeah right. Zoro's feats eclipse Smoker's despite that Smoker likely went all-out in PH while Zoro hasn't even shown his trump power-up yet. Luffy and Law's considerable superiority over Smoker and Vergo is beyond question yet Zoro is "on a similar level" and only favored due to them not being around in the arc. Despite outperforming both without bringing his trump =/ This is exactly the kind of lowest possible estimate/turning a blind eye to the obvious build-up of Zoro as an absolute monster Oda has been doing for soon to be 200 chapters I'm talking about.

How is it a portrayal of superiority? How? Where is Zoro's limit shown to be lower? This is exactly the same argument you could have made to say Law > Luffy before Luffy got the chance to go all-out. Again with the putting a cap on Zoro's level without having even seen him get significantly pushed. Zoro hasn't *gotten the chance* to show his strength on a similar venue as Law. You can not say Law is stronger because he is more impressive because he got the chance to show his full power. The only time Zoro interacted with someone of truly high level he resisted Fujitora's gravity attack and pushed him back with a counter, garnering praise of his swordsmanship being "brutal" or "ferocious". This does absolutely nothing to support Law > Zoro. It only reinforces the idea that Oda intends for Zoro to be an absolute monster and keeps hinting at the level of power that will be on display when he finally gets to show 100% of his worth.


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## Canute87 (Jun 8, 2015)

Cosmicflash12 said:


> Zoro can win by himself



No he can't.


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## kidgogeta (Jun 8, 2015)

If  G4 Luffy > Doflamingo when both are fresh, then Zoro and Sanji fighting together are enough to win if they actually attack together instead of taking turns with a 1 v 1 like Luffy  and Law.

Luffy never has nor will he ever  be stronger than the other two members of monster trio put together. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.


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## Canute87 (Jun 8, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> If  G4 Luffy > Doflamingo when both are fresh, then Zoro and Sanji fighting together are enough to win if they actually attack together instead and don't take turns with a 1 v 1 like Luffy  and Law.
> 
> Luffy never has nor will he ever  be stronger than the other two members of monster trio put together. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN.



And if it does?


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## kidgogeta (Jun 8, 2015)

I'd wear any set you want till this forum dies off bro. It's not happening.


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## Amol (Jun 8, 2015)

Well there is reason why G4 has a time limit .


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## Canute87 (Jun 8, 2015)

kidgogeta said:


> I'd wear any set you want till this forum dies off bro. It's not happening.



Actually I have no such desires to play dress up. 

Just hope that luffy doesn't learn to combine all gears. That would just suck

It probably is worth noting that  luffy's opponents are capable of fighting their number 2 and number 3 and coming out on top. 

Blackbeard should be able to do the same thing too.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Jun 8, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> It's not "the way he used his strength" as if that was something completely different than "his strength". Do you by any chance make a living out of describing Zoro-related scenes in as subtly downplaying ways as possible? Do you perhaps have a 1000-page document containing multiple ways to sneakily downplay every single scene in the manga where Zoro is being hyped? First you talk about something completely different and now that I've disputed that the next batch of excuses come out. It was the sheer overwhelming dominance of his strength that baffled her. That the mere suggestion of what would happen if he was actually willing to hurt was able to turn such an opponent into a frothing hapless wreck. She was astonished that it was even possible to do such a thing, and followed that thought with one of how unbelievably _powerful _the Straw Hats must have become. From seeing Zoro do that thing. And so your conclusion is: *this has absolutely nothing to do with Zoro's level of strength being incredibly high from her perspective. It's solely him using his strength in a specific way and that has no implications for his level of strength at all*. Like I said you must be a professional spinner =/
> 
> Similar level. Yeah right. Zoro's feats eclipse Smoker's despite that Smoker likely went all-out in PH while Zoro hasn't even shown his trump power-up yet. Luffy and Law's considerable superiority over Smoker and Vergo is beyond question yet Zoro is "on a similar level" and only favored due to them not being around in the arc. Despite outperforming both without bringing his trump =/ This is exactly the kind of lowest possible estimate/turning a blind eye to the obvious build-up of Zoro as an absolute monster Oda has been doing for soon to be 200 chapters I'm talking about.
> 
> How is it a portrayal of superiority? How? Where is Zoro's limit shown to be lower? This is exactly the same argument you could have made to say Law > Luffy before Luffy got the chance to go all-out. Again with the putting a cap on Zoro's level without having even seen him get significantly pushed. Zoro hasn't *gotten the chance* to show his strength on a similar venue as Law. You can not say Law is stronger because he is more impressive because he got the chance to show his full power. The only time Zoro interacted with someone of truly high level he resisted Fujitora's gravity attack and pushed him back with a counter, garnering praise of his swordsmanship being "brutal" or "ferocious". This does absolutely nothing to support Law > Zoro. It only reinforces the idea that Oda intends for Zoro to be an absolute monster and keeps hinting at the level of power that will be on display when he finally gets to show 100% of his worth.



_You strongly react to elements of your bias being exposed, it's not the first time this happens and i'm quite sure it will not be the last either. His strength is incredibly high from her perspective. Smoker's as well, Vergo's as well. She was powerless against Vergo, lying on the floor crying for Smoker after her single attempt to attack him was brushed aside with ease. What was most surprising was the way in which he used his strength superiority, something she never witnessed before. Something that goes in line with his personality, with how fierce he is as a warrior, with the title of the chapter *"Wild Beast"*. But fine, take the narrow minded route of "strength is the only factor", if it adds the slightest bit of hype to Zoro's strength i'm sure you find it reasonable to do so.

Now Vergo and Smoker are not even on a similar level to Zoro anymore ? Are they not on a similar level to Sanji either ? Is Sanji not on a similar level to Zoro ? Talk about disrespect towards the M3, can you only see it as meaningful when it serves as a tool to support Zoro ?





Yes, i do find the portrayal Law got alongside Doflamingo and Fujitora to be superior to Zoro's, after his encounter with Fujitora. I'm not mocking Zoro, or saying it's meaningless that he provided a praise worthy counter and stood up after an attack from an Admiral as i've seen others doing. I can see the value in that, i can see how Zoro remains perfectly comparable to Law strength wise even with that considered, but it's without a doubt that Law and Doflamingo were made to look better through their interaction with the same individual.

Zoro is a monster, one of the three of the crew. Zoro is so strong that he remains comparable with his captain and Law, and i am not turning a blind eye to that when judging his portrayal. Zoro will never get defeated with ease by his captain, like i've seen some say after the G4 reveal, Zoro would not get defeated with ease by Law either. When going all out he's likely to be in the next best thing line strength wise, which will be perfectly in line with his M3 status and his portrayal during this arc.

You're still advocating for Zoro = Luffy though, and all your arguments will be directed and shaped by that. Anything less than that will be hating Zoro, so there's little room to be considered reasonable by you unless one shares your bias._


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## kidgogeta (Jun 8, 2015)

Also it's far more reasonable to think that Zoro and Sanji already have their G4 equivalents, then them getting them after this arc btw.Neither  Zoro or Sanji have had a proper fight  since time skip. They've yet to have a fight on the level of Mr.1  and Mr.2 or Kaku and Jayabura.

 Inb4 Sanji vs Doflamingo. I'd like to see Luffy pull of G4 in that same situation Sanji was in. What an embarrassment that would be.


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## Dunno (Jun 8, 2015)

White Hawk said:


> Luffy is stronger unless you think Law and Zoro can smack Doflamingo around like Luffy did.



I think both Zoro and Law could put up a good fight against a moderately hurt Doflamingo. I don't think they'd make him fly around as much, since none of them have the same kind of move-set as Luffy, but I think they'd last longer than Luffy did and Doflamingo would be as damaged as he was after his fight with Luffy. If G4 didn't have a timer, Luffy would definitely be stronger than the two, but since it does, it's not certain that he is.


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## Gohara (Jun 8, 2015)

The Straw Hat Pirates win with mid to high difficulty.  Zoro isn't far off from Doflamingo's level IMO.  Even Zoro and Sanji combined alone should be enough to defeat Doflamingo.  I think the rest of the Straw Hat Pirates outside of Luffy combined are actually significantly more powerful than some give them credit for.  I don't think any of Doflamingo's subordinates would individually be enough to give them the edge here.  I mean one of his Seats helping him would make it a close fight, but I still think the Straw Hat Pirates would win.  If you add two of his subordinates- with at least one Seat- I think they may win.  Otherwise the Straw Hat Pirates win.


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## PirateHunter Eddy (Jun 8, 2015)

Wah this turned into a Zoro vs Law thread why am i not surprised


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## Dellinger (Jun 8, 2015)

Dunno said:


> I think both Zoro and Law could put up a good fight against a moderately hurt Doflamingo. I don't think they'd make him fly around as much, since none of them have the same kind of move-set as Luffy, but I think they'd last longer than Luffy did and Doflamingo would be as damaged as he was after his fight with Luffy. If G4 didn't have a timer, Luffy would definitely be stronger than the two, but since it does, it's not certain that he is.



Τhey wouldn't do shit to Doflamingo,what the hell is this.

Luffy is on their level with G2/G3,G4 puts him above them.


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## Akitō (Jun 8, 2015)

I'd be VERY surprised if Zoro + Sanji < Luffy, which is what it'd have to be in order for Doflamingo to have any chance here. It's impossible to say which team would win right now because we haven't seen Zoro go all out, but I think it's much more likely that the Strawhats w/o Luffy are stronger than Doflamingo than vice versa.


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## Amol (Jun 9, 2015)

Wtf people are talking here?
It is Luffy AND Law who are fought Doflamingo not just Luffy.
Zoro and Sanji are obviously weaker than those two .


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## barreltheif (Jun 9, 2015)

Akitō said:


> I'd be VERY surprised if Zoro + Sanji < Luffy, which is what it'd have to be in order for Doflamingo to have any chance here. It's impossible to say which team would win right now because we haven't seen Zoro go all out, but I think it's much more likely that the Strawhats w/o Luffy are stronger than Doflamingo than vice versa.




Doffy > Law+Luffy > Zoro+Sanji > Luffy.


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## The Bloody Nine (Jun 9, 2015)

barreltheif said:


> Doffy > Law+Luffy



This is wrong. Doffy never fought them both at the same time. He would get raped if he did as they could both fight him just fine in CQC.


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## barreltheif (Jun 9, 2015)

The Bloody Nine said:


> This is wrong. Doffy never fought them both at the same time. He would get raped if he did as they could both fight him just fine in CQC.




Um, what? It was clearly a team fight. Luffy and Law initially faced Doffy together and fought him for a chapter. Remember Red Hawk? Then Doffy used his clone to separate them, and he fought Law and cut off his arm while Luffy fought the clone. Then Luffy fought Bellamy while Doffy taunted Law and tried to convince him to grant him immortality, and then Luffy came back up to fight Doffy. Law got in one last hit with gamma knife while Luffy and Doffy were fighting, and then Luffy and Doffy resumed fighting one on one, and Doffy ultimately won.


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