# Minato fought A AND B



## Sufex (May 14, 2019)

the minato downplayers have been really loud lately. One of the key points to their arguments are that he stalemated A on his own several times, while its obviously implied in the manga that he fought both A and B. After doing a little digging i found that the databook states that it was indeed both brothers he fought numerously with no clear winner. This is further implied when it says the 'first' battle. implying there were others

Reactions: Like 3


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## Trojan (May 14, 2019)

they are just salty...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 14, 2019)

Okay and...


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## Omote (May 14, 2019)

Tobirama blitzes

Hiruzen neutralizes

Sannin show their title

Kakashi uses Kamui GG

Gai uses five Hirudoras in a row

Minato can beat fodder but he can't beat the NBD's greatest

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sufex (May 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Okay and...





Hussain said:


> they are just salty...


I don't know what hes done to earn such a dedicated base of haters


Omote said:


> Tobirama blitzes
> 
> Hiruzen neutralizes
> 
> ...


sorry I forgot tobirama would still blitz him no diff


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## Trojan (May 14, 2019)

Sufex said:


> I don't know what hes done to earn such a dedicated base of haters


embarrass their favorites...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (May 14, 2019)

Sufex said:


> I don't know what hes done to earn such a dedicated base of haters
> 
> sorry I forgot tobirama would still blitz him no diff


Tobirama would no diff blitz him. Don’t need to be a hater to accept reality


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## ShinAkuma (May 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama would no diff blitz him. Don’t need to be a hater to accept reality



I'll add it to the list.

Kisame is founder tier

Hidan beats Gai in HTH

Tobirama no diffs blitzes Minato


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## JayK (May 14, 2019)

I keep seeing a lot of shit in recent times.

From 2 Sannin beating Minato up to Pain defeating him low diff.


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## AxelKross (May 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama would no diff blitz him. Don’t need to be a hater to accept reality


dude r u stupid. tobirama sais minato is faster than him multiple times


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 14, 2019)

Minato's fapboys like crying regarding the fact yet they outright ignore the fact that Eī IV + KillaBee ain't even apex of they  prime.

- Wasn't produce transclucent afterimages harnessed by literal sheer momentum.
- Outright physically emaciated, drained, spiritually intimidated (dude straight up physically contested a brute [Eī IV],  matched MS detereoriated Sauce, battled a Jūbi [deadliest Bijū Jinchūriki] spiritually authenticated by Obito, Madz, by a ocular powered link) physically tackled by garbage filth odds like Minato flat out bypassed 33X stratospheric upgrade battle anxiety: Post Prime - man's facially, mentally threatened by FTG instant exploit  - Pre Prime.
- Gyuki BM existence's outright subjective like cannonically alludes i.e 89% physically exacerbated by Trio BM Tails.
- Outright practically implicits lack of 7 Sword's WhirlWind occupying a significant portion of skillset, displaying a uni-knife (Hiraishin V2 split-second response).

So on. Ink Splits, LOS Guerilla Ink, Version-1 V2 BM/ V2 V2 BM existence, likewise, ain't explicitly affirmed.

The Yellow filth Of the City of Maple Leaf explicitly outright battled, presumably extreme brief skirmish excuse of a battle simulation - against A + B battle segment.

Optimistic estimation of course.


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## ShinAkuma (May 14, 2019)

Sage light said:


> Minato's fapboys like crying regarding the fact yet they outright ignore the fact that Eī IV + KillaBee ain't even apex of they  prime.
> 
> - Wasn't produce transclucent afterimages harnessed by literal sheer momentum.
> - Outright physically emaciated, drained, spiritually intimidated (dude straight up physically contested a brute [Eī IV],  matched MS detereoriated Sauce, battled a Jūbi [deadliest Bijū Jinchūriki] spiritually authenticated by Obito, Madz, by a ocular powered link) physically tackled by garbage filth odds like Minato flat out bypassed 33X stratospheric upgrade battle anxiety: Post Prime - man's facially, mentally threatened by FTG instant exploit  - Pre Prime.
> ...



This is.....amazing.

Not exactly sure what you said, but I like what I'm reading!


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## X III (May 14, 2019)

Sufex said:


> the minato downplayers have been really loud lately. One of the key points to their arguments are that he stalemated A on his own several times, while its obviously implied in the manga that he fought both A and B. After doing a little digging i found that the databook states that it was indeed both brothers he fought numerously with no clear winner. This is further implied when it says the 'first' battle. implying there were others




Don't worry tho. You'll only find shit like this with the minority of Minato haters.


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## SakuraLover16 (May 15, 2019)

It's it just me or is Sage Light starting to slowly make sense?


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## X III (May 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> It's it just me or is Sage Light starting to slowly make sense?


Remember when Sage Light used to actually make sense and didn't type in word salads?


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## SakuraLover16 (May 15, 2019)

X III said:


> Remember when Sage Light used to actually make sense and didn't type in word salads?


I actually don't lol. This is a major improvement from a couple of days ago though.


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## X III (May 15, 2019)

SakuraLover16 said:


> I actually don't lol. This is a major improvement from a couple of days ago though.


I remember back in the Itachi wank days, he used to make a lot more sense and put forth coherent arguments (however coherent you can be while wanking Itachi lol). Seems very different now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'll add it to the list.
> 
> Kisame is founder tier


Don't say that shit aloud ... 
Kisame is bijuu level with meteor stopping physical power and island sized Daikodans.


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## dergeist (May 15, 2019)

No he didn't, the historical record doesn't tie up to the manga facts. You should take it with a pinch of salt, we know KB could off him. If we accept there was a sliver of a chance it did happen, he likely saw them, Ay launched an attack and he FTG'd away.


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Sufex said:


> the minato downplayers have been really loud lately. One of the key points to their arguments are that he stalemated A on his own several times, while its obviously implied in the manga that he fought both A and B. After doing a little digging i found that the databook states that it was indeed both brothers he fought numerously with no clear winner. This is further implied when it says the 'first' battle. implying there were others


What about this says A4 never fought Minato alone?

Minato said they will fight as Kage.
As Kage A4 was not with Bee, EVER. Bee was banned from leaving the village.
There is only 1 logical conclusion. Minato fought A4 alone at some point and A4 lived just fine


JayK said:


> I keep seeing a lot of shit in recent times.
> 
> From 2 Sannin beating Minato up to Pain defeating him low diff.


Why is it everyone will take Minato statements as fuckin gods words but then Bee says injured no susano MS sasuke was stronger than anyone he ever faced?


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Minato said they will fight as Kage.
> As Kage A4 was not with Bee, EVER. Bee was banned from leaving the village.
> There is only 1 logical conclusion. Minato fought A4 alone at some point and A4 lived just fine


I see you are still bad at this... :V

B's flashback of Minato was literally facing Hokage Minato....





you should feel bad....

Reactions: Like 3


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I see you are still bad at this... :V
> 
> B's flashback of Minato was literally facing Hokage Minato....
> 
> ...



Hussain solos

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 15, 2019)

It doesn't mean much for a couple of reasons. 

-Despite their many battles, Minato was never able to kill either one of them. That's including Killer Bee, the one that got ragdolled by Kisame. 

-That panel itself also explains the context, "*Their military* forces were mutually *recognized*". This implies that Minato and his team vs A+B and their team fought each other often and recognized each other strengths. 

Minato in a 1v2 battle would be hardpressed to damage the Raikage let alone battle B who already countered him twice on panel and who also has Bijuu mode on top.

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## Azula (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> -Despite their many battles, Minato was never able to kill either one of them. That's including Killer Bee, the one that got ragdolled by Kisame.



That wasn't what happened, Minato willingly retreated and stopped fighting because of orders. Same thing must have happeend other times because their main objective was to win war not kill them.



Crimson Flam3s said:


> -That panel itself also explains the context, "*Their military* forces were mutually *recognized*". This implies that Minato and his team vs A+B and their team fought each other often and recognized each other strengths.



Raikage was outmatched and would have been slashed if not for B and B was marked and would have been slashed if Minato hadn't recieved the order to retreat and stopped fighting by that point.

It wasn't an equal fight.


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## BlackHeartedImp (May 15, 2019)

X III said:


> Remember when Sage Light used to actually make sense and didn't type in word salads?


Sage Light never made sense. He just didn't make sense in a more legible manner.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 15, 2019)

Azula said:


> That wasn't what happened, Minato willingly retreated and stopped fighting because of orders. Same thing must have happeend other times because their main objective was to win war not kill them.



Killing is a big part of why a war can be won and there is no proof they were going easy and not willing to kill each other during battle. Why would they even go at each other during multiple battles and willingly go easy lol



> Raikage was outmatched and would have been slashed if not for B and B was marked and would have been slashed if Minato hadn't recieved the order to retreat and stopped fighting by that point.
> 
> It wasn't an equal fight.



Minato would not have scratched the Raikage one bit with a Kunai slash. 

He no selled Chidori and a Raiton infused sword in case you forgot. 

Just because Minato went for a slash while not knowing about his durability doesn't mean he would have accomplished anything.


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## Sorin (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Killing is a big part of why a war can be won and there is no proof they were going easy and not willing to kill each other during battle. Why would they even go at each other during multiple battles and willingly go easy lol
> 
> 
> 
> ...


B
Yeah and a kunai is enough to kill Hashirama. A rasengan from BM Naruto barely scratched Obito while Minato diced him in half with one swing of his kunai

As a fellow Kakashi stan I am disappointed in your post and low level downplay. Shame...


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 15, 2019)

Sorin said:


> B
> Yeah and a kunai is enough to kill Hashirama. A rasengan from BM Naruto barely scratched Obito while Minato diced him in half with one swing of his kunai
> 
> As a fellow Kakashi stan I am disappointed in your post and low level downplay. Shame...



 Hashirama is not known to have a body nearly as durable as the Raikage's and he could have easily deactivated his healing after stabbing himself, thus being able to kill himself.

Naruto's Rasengan did not have any momentum behind it.

As a fellow Kakashi fan, I am disappointed in the quality of poorly thought arguments you have brought forward while also ignoring and failing to even counter the initial points I made regarding A's durability and Minato's lack of kunai slash feats on durable opponents.


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## Sorin (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Hashirama is not known to have a body nearly as durable as the Raikage's and he could have easily deactivated his healing after stabbing himself, thus being able to kill himself.
> 
> Naruto's Rasengan did not have any momentum behind it.
> 
> As a fellow Kakashi fan, I am disappointed in the quality of poorly thought arguments you have brought forward while also ignoring and failing to even counter the initial points I made regarding A's durability and Minato's lack of kunai slash feats on durable opponents.



Raikage himself thanked Bee for saving him, and as the person who would have most to lose at that point I would tend to believe that Minato's slash would have done some serious damage over your opinion. Furthermore Raikage is one arrogant dude and when he saw Sasuke's weak ass sword slash and chidori he was not one bit concerned as opposed to when Minato was about to slice his ass.

Since when is momentum the thing that makes rasengan dangerous? I thought the fact that the chakra spins so violently and releases that energy in such a short amount of time is what makes it dangerous. Here you are adding momentum out of nowhere. Mind showing me a manga page, maybe i'm not remembering well.

For example, the bigger version of rasengan, the biju bomb, is the most dangerous when it explodes not really when it has momentum. Why would rasengan be different?

You know what I said that i'm disappointed in your arguments as a Kakashi fan? Because if there's one character who manages to punch above his weight with simple kunais and fucking chains of all things, it's Kakashi. With a kunai he was able to statelmate Zabuza's cleaver. With a simple kunai and raiton he was able to dissect numerous boulders. Kakashi with a goddamn basic chain was able to pin down fucking Deva Pain. Of all guys to see you dismiss even kunais as threats is disappointing.

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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> I see you are still bad at this... :V
> 
> B's flashback of Minato was literally facing Hokage Minato....
> 
> ...





Rai said:


> Hussain solos


I see you all don't know how to read manga. Let me help you.
Black borders = flashback.
Dark filter = flashback
This scene, neither of the flashback indicators. That'll be 43.50, I take cash only.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 15, 2019)

Sorin said:


> Raikage himself thanked Bee for saving him, and as the person who would have most to lose at that point I would tend to believe that Minato's slash would have done some serious damage over your opinion. Furthermore Raikage is one arrogant dude and when he saw Sasuke's weak ass sword slash and chidori he was not one bit concerned as opposed to when Minato was about to slice his ass.


Raikage was surprised about Minato getting the upperhand on him by getting behind his back with FTG, not worried and he thanked Bee for helping.

I do not recall him saying anything related to "saving him". Maybe you could post the panel.




> Since when is momentum the thing that makes rasengan dangerous? I thought the fact that the chakra spins so violently and releases that energy in such a short amount of time is what makes it dangerous. Here you are adding momentum out of nowhere. Mind showing me a manga page, maybe i'm not remembering well.
> 
> For example, the bigger version of rasengan, the biju bomb, is the most dangerous when it explodes not really when it has momentum. Why would rasengan be different?


 
A Bijuu bomb's purpose is to explode, nothing to do with momentum so not sure why you are bringing it up.

A Rasengan is a spinning ball of Chakra that acts as an spherical drill, and as such it will do more damage if there is someone pushing it into the enemy rather than it just hitting it after teleportation.



> You know what I said that i'm disappointed in your arguments as a Kakashi fan? Because if there's one character who manages to punch above his weight with simple kunais and fucking chains of all things, it's Kakashi. With a kunai he was able to statelmate Zabuza's cleaver. With a simple kunai and raiton he was able to dissect numerous boulders. Kakashi with a goddamn basic chain was able to pin down fucking Deva Pain. Of all guys to see you dismiss even kunais as threats is disappointing.



Kunais are not a threat against opponents with tough durability vs the Raikage, I never said anything about them being useless in general.

You are just jumping to conclusions here and making assumptions as to why I am bringing these points forward lol.


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## Sorin (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Raikage was surprised about Minato getting the upperhand on him by getting behind his back with FTG, not worried and he thanked Bee for helping.
> 
> I do not recall him saying anything related to "saving him". Maybe you could post the panel.



Yeah, he did not say "thank you for saving me" but you are mentioning that he thanked him for "helping". How is this that much different? Help him for what? In your opinion he was in no danger of being slashed by a simple kunai so why would he be grateful to need "help"? Hell, the fact that B intervened in that instance proves that it was indeed something to take into consideration.




> A Bijuu bomb's purpose is to explode, nothing to do with momentum so not sure why you are bringing it up.
> 
> A Rasengan is a spinning ball of Chakra that acts as an spherical drill, and as such it will do more damage if there is someone pushing it into the enemy rather than it just hitting it after teleportation.



How is that any different when in fact rasengan's biggest damage is done when it detonates? They are the same technique, as per canon, only at different scales. Not once was it said that rasengans need to have momentum to do damage. That's only in your head canon.



> Kunais are not a threat against opponents with tough durability vs the Raikage, I never said anything about them being useless in general.
> 
> You are just jumping to conclusions here and making assumptions as to why I am bringing these points forward lol.



That's like your opinion man, I already showed you how a rasengan did less damage than Minato's kunai slash and thus it should not be dismissed as threat to the Raikage. Kunais in the right hands makes the likes of Sage Madara have to dodge as when Tobirama lounged at him with a fecking kunai. Time and time again we have been shown instances when simple tools have made top tiers think twice but for some reason you still don't see it.

Anyway, even getting over these last arguments about kunais and whatnot, the fact that a technique like chidori, which is about equal to Naruto's base rasengan, slightly pierced Raikage's chest makes me believe that a couple of well placed basketball sized Minato rasengans will do enough damage so him being hard pressed to damage A is doubtful. On his own, without B he would be dead meat in a couple of minutes at most, so the databook makes perfect sense when it said that Minato faced both.


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

@Hussain 
Come on, just an "optimistic"? No rebuttal? Nothing? Is that your way of conceding?


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## Santoryu (May 15, 2019)

X III said:


> I remember back in the Itachi wank days, he used to make a lot more sense and put forth coherent arguments (however coherent you can be while wanking Itachi lol). Seems very different now.



Got any links?


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I see you all don't know how to read manga. Let me help you.
> Black borders = flashback.
> Dark filter = flashback
> This scene, neither of the flashback indicators. That'll be 43.50, I take cash only.



Don’t change the fact that it happened black borders/dark filter or not is irrelevant.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> @Hussain
> Come on, just an "optimistic"? No rebuttal? Nothing? Is that your way of conceding?


I am tired and you like to talk a lot. 
Also, I don't think we will reach an agreement anyway...


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> Don’t change the fact that it happened not black border is irrelevant.


What are you talking about? The black border or dark tint are REQUIREMENTS for them to be flashbacks. Otherwise, they are not flashbacks.

There is one other way Kishimoto indicates Flashbacks, by placing the persons head in the frame. 
Also, you see the way the speech bubble is? How it has spikes all over it. That's an indication of thought. Those kind of thoughts bubbles don't exist in flashbacks. Thoughts during flashbacks are always just text overlayed on the image itself.



Hussain said:


> I am tired and you like to talk a lot.
> Also, I don't think we will reach an agreement anyway...


If you'd like I'll keep my responses other than this one within 1 sentence. Cause for this topic it is literally fact lol.

This isn't an agreement or disagreement. We are talking about Manga structure. You are denying Manga structure. Just concede 1 time. That's all you gotta do. It doesn't really change much anyway. Minata is still>= Young A4.


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## hbcaptain (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> A Rasengan is a spinning ball of Chakra that acts as an spherical drill, and as such it will do more damage if there is someone pushing it into the enemy rather than it just hitting it after teleportation.


""

"Once the compressed highest level of chakra is released, incredible rotation and power of destruction synchronize and speed ahead."

"Upon release its power of destruction is greatly heightened. It is equivalent to having a ‘small hurricane’ in one’s hands!!"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What are you talking about? The black border or dark tint are REQUIREMENTS for them to be flashbacks. Otherwise, they are not flashbacks.
> 
> There is one other way Kishimoto indicates Flashbacks, by placing the persons head in the frame.
> Also, you see the way the speech bubble is? How it has spikes all over it. That's an indication of thought. Those kind of thoughts bubbles don't exist in flashbacks. Thoughts during flashbacks are always just text overlayed on the image itself.
> ...



No they're not required as shown:

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> No they're not required as shown:


I cant see the second picture, but the first one DOES have the dark tint, what are you talking about? compare the skin.


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I cant see the second picture, but the first one DOES have the dark tint, what are you talking about? compare the skin.



I was talking about black borders and My bad I posted a dead link here it is:


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> I was talking about black borders and My bad I posted a dead link here it is:


No problem. Thanks for finding it.
Link removed
Link removed

That's an extremely interesting addition by VIZ. Why they added that I have no idea. Cause fan Scanners cant remove that shit. So we have a conundrum here.


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> No problem. Thanks for finding it.
> Link removed
> Link removed
> 
> That's an extremely interesting addition by VIZ. Why they added that I have no idea. Cause fan Scanners cant remove that shit. So we have a conundrum here.



They sometimes fix/add stuff on volumes and this may be one of them.


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> I was talking about black borders and My bad I posted a dead link here it is:



Well that is certainly a flashback.

We know for a fact that Bee and A4 must have encountered Minato at least once while he was Hokage.


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> They sometimes fix/add stuff on volumes and this may be one of them.


Possibly, Or its Viz tampering. I'd like to see the Japanese volumes to confirm.


ShinAkuma said:


> Well that is certainly a flashback.


Don't be so sure. It still has the non flash back style thought bubbles.



ShinAkuma said:


> We know for a fact that Bee and A4 must have encountered Minato at least once while he was Hokage.


 No we don't. Why is that a fact?
Bijuudama could have been done by rampaging Bijuu. If that is why you are saying that.


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Don't be so sure. It still has the non flash back style thought bubbles.



It's a Viz, so I'm sure.

Plus flashback scenarios DO NOT REQUIRE black outlines or the flashback filter, they just usually do this for the reader. We have had flashbacks without these things, sometimes inconsistent within the same chapter.

Link removed



> No we don't. Why is that a fact?



Bee is remembering Hokage Minato, in order to have that memory he must have encountered him.



> Bijuudama could have been done by rampaging Bijuu. If that is why you are saying that.



No.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.


no that I disagree or anything, but weren't you of that opinion as well? 
that Minato could have battled other Bijuus instead of B/Haschibi?


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> no that I disagree or anything, but weren't you of that opinion as well?
> that Minato could have battled other Bijuus instead of B/Haschibi?



Yes, but it has nothing to do with Bee's flashback or Bee/A4 encountering Hokage Minato. Hence "No".


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## Rai (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Possibly, Or its Viz tampering. I'd like to see the Japanese volumes to confirm.
> Don't be so sure. It still has the non flash back style thought bubbles.
> 
> No we don't. Why is that a fact?
> Bijuudama could have been done by rampaging Bijuu. If that is why you are saying that.



Viz use the same source as Japanese:


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

@kokodeshide 's hatred has been defeated...


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's a Viz, so I'm sure.
> 
> Plus flashback scenarios DO NOT REQUIRE black outlines or the flashback filter, they just usually do this for the reader. We have had flashbacks without these things, sometimes inconsistent within the same chapter.
> 
> Link removed


You are in a bit of a contradiction here. If the volumes fixed the lack of a flashback indicator, that means it DOES require it. 

As for the chapter you posted, the flashback scene begins with the filter and since the scene was longer, it just drew it normal, but its still a continuation of the flashback. Even have the different text style.



ShinAkuma said:


> Bee is remembering Hokage Minato, in order to have that memory he must have encountered him.


 During the chapter you posted, We see the 3rd Hokage. is that Obito talking about meeting Hiruzen? Same with danzo. That just means he is talking ABOUT him.


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Rai said:


> Viz use the same source as Japanese:


Viz uses that source and then they make modification, an example would be the Giongo they chance that forces them to redraw shit. 

Many thanks for finding that though!



Hussain said:


> @kokodeshide 's hatred has been defeated...


1. How is it hate? I was right 100 percent. The manga we all read had the image of Minato as a standard "mention frame". I was reading the manga correctly. The volume decided to come back and change that, why and who? Idk. But everything I said about the manga most of us read was correct.
2. Hey hey, guess what, it doesn't change anything. Minato still said they would fight. Bee wasn't allowed to leave the village. that means Bee either snuck out or Kishimotos Databook retcons the manga. The databook also says A4 is now as fast as Minato so nothing really changes.
3. Watch this, ready? Learn from this.
I, the Dready, Mighty, Powerful Koko, Completely Concede to the flashback image. Congrats @Rai , Well played! You got me on that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (May 15, 2019)

Sufex said:


> the minato downplayers have been really loud lately. One of the key points to their arguments are that he stalemated A on his own several times, while its obviously implied in the manga that he fought both A and B. After doing a little digging i found that the databook states that it was indeed both brothers he fought numerously with no clear winner. This is further implied when it says the 'first' battle. implying there were others



Never knew that the databook implicated Minato fighting them multiple times - nice find.

The thing is that Minato was attempting to stab Shrouded A4 with a kunai, whenever he survived Mabui’s Transfer Technique unharmed and was only mildly punctured by Sasuke’s Chidori. So his attack wouldn’t have done shit.

And Bee could transform into a bijū, so..

Minato did well at escaping A4’s fastest attack and would have stabbed Bee, but that doesn’t mean he would have won.

The other times were off panel and probably had similar circumstances.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I was right 100 percent.


no, you weren't.


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What? The scans fans use are straight from jump magazine.



Hence it doesn't require it before it goes to print.



> You cant "Accidently" remove that filter.



They are scanning the physical paper. If they have the exposure set too high it can wash out some of the filter. All you would need to for the person editing it to not notice and just go and clean up.

But we will go with "impossible" because I don't care.



> ..you and that whole rationalizing shit again.



It is what it is.



> If it has an explanation, it is not an inconsistency nor would I be rationalizing it in the way you are implying I am. I would be correcting you and explaining it.



It is a rationalization because you are offering your take on it.

Perhaps I am wrong and you are simply repeating official information. If that is the case please provide the memo or faq or info from Shounen/Viz that offers this explanation.



> Scene starts with flashback filter and sasukes face, meaning its his memory.
> Thought style word text means he is remembering and not telling Obito the story.
> panel after panel. They end the scene and to transition back into real time with a black panel.
> This is manga structure, not inconsistency.
> ...



Is Obito remembering his meeting with Itachi? There is no filter there either.

It's inconsistent, that is the point.


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## Sufex (May 15, 2019)

Who did minato observe doing a TBB to create the rasengan?


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## JayK (May 15, 2019)

I just fucking love the Minato downplay.

1st the haters come up with his lack of firepower.

Then you prove the nuthuggers wrong by showing Minato cutting the Hachibi's tails with ease just using a bare Kunai. The same tails which tanked the Hachibi's own BB like the rest of Hachibi's body.

Then they say thats barely impressive because MS Sasuke WHO IS A HIGH TIER IN HIS OWN RIGHT by using an actually fairly high ranked jutsu and Rinnegan Obito WHO IS A FUCKING TOP TIER and possesses physical stats AT LEAST compareable to KCM Naruto were able to cut through them.

So how does having another high tier and a top tier being able to cut the Hachibi's tentacles prove again that they are not durable?



Then when we have Minato fighting against someone like Pain they act as if shared vision magically gives the paths much superior speed and reactions, essentially making it for some retarded ass reason impossible for Minato to blitz them despite it only being just that, shared vision because fuck Minato I guess.

He also suddenly is too slow to react and dodge ST despite tagging Kurama's BB with ease and fails to dodge summons and blindsides.

Minato together with B, the Edo Kage and the Gokage excluding Tsunade are the biggest victims of the asshurt Masters and Sannin fandom at this point.

Like what...


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> I just fucking love the Minato downplay.
> 
> 1st the haters come up with his lack of firepower.
> 
> ...



Great post up until the rando Sannin comment.

Pretty sure no Sannin fans have an issue with Minato.


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## Ishmael (May 15, 2019)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> That's including Killer Bee, the one that got ragdolled by Kisame.



We both know why killer Bee was beaten by kisame, it was a true 1v1 yeah but you'd be lying to yourself if you think kisame isn't better suited than minato and many others to fight Bee.


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## JayK (May 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Pretty sure no Sannin fans have an issue with Minato.


You are sadly mistaken, I see enough people from both fanbases bashing him.

Without naming anyone though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (May 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> Then we have Minato fighting against someone like Pain they act as if shared vision magically gives the paths much superior speed and reactions, essentially making it for some retarded ass reason impossible for Minato to blitz them despite it only being just that, shared vision because fuck Minato I guess.



Teleporting to someone is one thing, the follow up which would be his striking speed is another, is it fast enough to the point that shared vision won't telegraph the attack and allow a body to react.

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> no, you weren't.


Yes I was. I analyzed the panel correctly. The only thing is i was using the presumably uncorrected panel. That doesn't mean my logic was wrong. My logic is 100 percent right. My SOURCE was wrong. Shit, look at the corrected source, it DID WHAT I SAID IT SHOULD if it was a flashback.


Sufex said:


> Who did minato observe doing a TBB to create the rasengan?


There are 9 Bijuu, take your pick.


ShinAkuma said:


> Hence it doesn't require it before it goes to print.


What are you even talking about? It DOES require it. the fact that they put it there later means it was a MISTAKE. Not only is there zero basis for this point you are making, its also borderline ridiculous.
"Oh forget the flashback indicators that are standard manga procedure. just fuck around until the volume is out."


ShinAkuma said:


> They are scanning the physical paper. If they have the exposure set too high it can wash out some of the filter. All you would need to for the person editing it to not notice and just go and clean up.
> 
> But we will go with "impossible" because I don't care.


Go ahead and give that a try and experience it for yourself, cause apparently nothing I say, fact or not, here matters at all.


ShinAkuma said:


> It is what it is.


It is disrespectful and condescending, and when you end up being wrong, it makes it all that much worse. 


ShinAkuma said:


> It is a rationalization because you are offering your take on it.
> 
> Perhaps I am wrong and you are simply repeating official information. If that is the case please provide the memo or faq or info from Shounen/Viz that offers this explanation.


Did you always take the "Idk, who knows, you never know for sure" stance?

All mangaka do shit differently. You simply have to follow the patterns. This is not really the end all be all for Minatos standing so I'm not actually going to bother looking for something I would have zero idea the location of. If you can't understand the basic structure of manga, I really don't know what to tell you. I'm not running from the point as you know I can go forever, nor am I trying to be disrespectful in anyway, but I should not have to explain basic Manga Layout so extensively.


ShinAkuma said:


> Is Obito remembering his meeting with Itachi? There is no filter there either.
> 
> It's inconsistent, that is the point.


It is not inconsistent, you simply do not understand why, when and where mangaka lay things out the way they do. No offense intended.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Who did minato observe doing a TBB to create the rasengan?


could be anyone, except for the Jinchuuriki we know he fought.


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## Trojan (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Yes I was. I analyzed the panel correctly. The only thing is i was using the presumably uncorrected panel. That doesn't mean my logic was wrong. My logic is 100 percent right. My SOURCE was wrong. Shit, look at the corrected source, it DID WHAT I SAID IT SHOULD if it was a flashback.


Nope, still wrong. And I am not only referring to this incident alone. 
you are wrong like 90% of the time.


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## JayK (May 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> Teleporting to someone is one thing, the follow up which would be his striking speed is another, is it fast enough to the point that shared vision won't telegraph the attack and allow a body to react.


You brought it to the point.

In Minato's case it should EASILY be enough to shitblitz all paths except MAYBE Deva and thats being generous af towards Deva.


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> I just fucking love the Minato downplay.


Its downplay to say he fought A4 1v1? Really? This is the crazy fandom shit I'm talking about.


JayK said:


> 1st the haters come up with his lack of firepower.


Which he respectfully has an actual lack of. Thank god most people die from rasengan anyway.



JayK said:


> Then you prove the nuthuggers wrong by showing Minato cutting the Hachibi's tails with ease just using a bare Kunai. The same tails which tanked the Hachibi's own BB like the rest of Hachibi's body.


lol
explosions are not equivalent to slicing damage, bruv. Unless you are saying Minato has mountain level slicing power hahaha.
Kisame took Hirudora, cut by a kunai. is that Kunai >Hirudora


JayK said:


> Then they say thats barely impressive because MS Sasuke WHO IS A HIGH TIER IN HIS OWN RIGHT by using an actually fairly high ranked jutsu and Rinnegan Obito WHO IS A FUCKING TOP TIER and possesses physical stats AT LEAST compareable to KCM Naruto were able to cut through them.


The point is he has been cut easiliy before, he has no shown resistance to cutting attacks.


JayK said:


> So how does having another high tier and a top tier being able to cut the Hachibi's tentacles prove again that they are not durable?


It proves they arent able to take cuts, thats all.
Wait, why dont you address Bee saying MS Sasuke Was stronger than Minato?


JayK said:


> Then when Minato would in theory fight against someone like Pain they act as if shared vision magically gives the paths much superior speed and reactions, essentially making it for some retarded ass reason impossible for Minato to blitz them despite it only being just that, shared vision because fuck Minato I guess.


There is no actual logic in this. You just said he can because he can. you didnt say anything else. Pain has some of the best reaction feats in the serious, bruv.


JayK said:


> He also suddenly is too slow to react and dodge ST despite tagging Kurama's BB with ease and fails to dodge summons and blindsides.


wait wait, how does this make any sense? he can dodge the invisible ST because he stood still and let Kuramas TBB hit hit barrier? what?


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## Ishmael (May 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> You brought it to the point.
> 
> In Minato's case it should EASILY be enough to shitblitz all paths except MAYBE Deva and thats being generous af towards Deva.



I asked because i know of his FTG feats but his striking speed is murky to me.  

As far as him blitzing I do believe he'll be able to teleport towards the paths without difficulty but him striking without an reaction? Eh. Shared vision works like surveillance cameras as we know already, that's many angles covered and already being watched, at worst I can see them putting up a last minute defense like putting their hands up to block a hit. But I don't think he'll just go around ragdolling them 1 by 1. 

Deva case is different, he doesn't need to physically react, all he needs is to comprehend and mentally react to minato. With shared vision watching the angles of attack, he'll have time to see where minato plans to attack from. ST isn't something that can be shrugged off either and if deva does decide to physically react a chakra rod would mess with minatos ability to perform justu until he pulls it out.​


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Nope, still wrong. And I am not only referring to this incident alone.
> you are wrong like 90% of the time.


Hussain...my analysis was correct. So you agreeing when YOU posted the wrong image makes you someone who doesn't understand how to read manga, You saying it was a flashback BASED on an image that doesnt show one is what the real sad thing is here. If you think that makes me wrong, than that 90% you are talking about is really put into question. Because I was RIGHT with my analysis. The conclusion I made based off the evidence YOU posted was CORRECT. The corrected Manga didn't make my analysis wrong, it made my CONCLUSION wrong. Did I really have to spell this out for you?


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## JayK (May 15, 2019)

Ishmael said:


> I asked because i know of his FTG feats but his striking speed is murky to me.


You should ask Obito about his striking speed.

He'd likely be able to tell you a lot from experience.

Unless ofc the paths have better reactions and speed than Obito (they don't) which would render the point mood.


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## Hardcore (May 15, 2019)

he did, agree with OP

my only problem is people saying 15 year old B = fucking adult WA BM B

Reactions: Like 2


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> What are you even talking about? It DOES require it. the fact that they put it there later means it was a MISTAKE.



Or something they are aware can be fixed in the volumes, hence why they can print without implementing it. They are on a tight schedule.

Not like it really matters.



> Go ahead and give that a try and experience it for yourself, cause apparently nothing I say, fact or not, here matters at all.



You are not dealing in facts. That's the problem. I gave you a possible scenario. You say it's impossible, even tho nothing is impossible when it comes human error. But hey, let's go with IMPOSSIBLE.

You win.



> It is disrespectful and condescending,



If you don't want your rationalizing to be pointed out then stop *RATIONALIZING*.



> and when you end up being wrong, it makes it all that much worse.



If I'm wrong I will apologies. Won't be the first or last time.



> Did you always take the "Idk, who knows, you never know for sure" stance?



No, and not the stance I'm taking here.



> All mangaka do shit differently. You simply have to follow the patterns. This is not really the end all be all for Minatos standing so I'm not actually going to bother looking for something I would have zero idea the location of. If you can't understand the basic structure of manga, I really don't know what to tell you. I'm not running from the point as you know I can go forever, nor am I trying to be disrespectful in anyway, but I should not have to explain basic Manga Layout so extensively.
> It is not inconsistent, you simply do not understand why, when and where mangaka lay things out the way they do. No offense intended.



Ok, so your rational on the subject then. I will put the apology back in my pocket.

You have an idea as to why things happen, and no matter what details come to light, you squeeze them into your idea of what should be even if they don't fit. This idea of yours is not an official rule of Shounen or Viz. You cannot hold the manga to your idea as though it is some official procedure.

I have shown the manga is inconsistent in how memories and flashbacks are handled. Yes there is a guideline on how they usually handle these things, but it is not a hard and fast rule that has to be followed NO MATTER WHAT and the lack of such indicators (black bars/faded scenes) cannot disqualify flashbacks as being flashbacks.


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## Santoryu (May 15, 2019)

Hardcore said:


> he did, agree with OP
> 
> my only problem is people saying 15 year old B = fucking adult WA BM B



this may present positive correlations in reason to age leading to progression factors. in case of bee the symbiotic jinjuriki partnership through narrative signings surpass hokage level status. if bee had country level bijuu minato cannot mount a defense of hardship which can destroy the weak and mangled constitution


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

JayK said:


> You are sadly mistaken, I see enough people from both fanbases bashing him.
> 
> Without naming anyone though.



This is the NBD homie.

NAME THOSE NAMES!

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (May 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Or something they are aware can be fixed in the volumes, hence why they can print without implementing it. They are on a tight schedule.
> 
> Not like it really matters.


lol, no. that is literally a 2 second, go to the backroom, get the dot sheet, lay it over. 
The fact that they use non flashback thought bubbles means it was a MISTAKE. 


ShinAkuma said:


> You are not dealing in facts. That's the problem. I gave you a possible scenario. You say it's impossible, even tho nothing is impossible when it comes human error. But hey, let's go with IMPOSSIBLE.
> 
> You win.


I AM dealing in facts, you are the one stating things without any proof or even a shred of actual sense. To over expose something to the point that that tiny dark dots disappear and not have the ENTIRE IMAGE turn into blank canvas is impossible.
Let me put it this way as well. Viz's scans dont have that issue for 2 reasons. 1. The paper that is used to print books is thicker. 2. they have better scanning equipment leading TO higher exposure than scanners use, that is why the Scanners flashback filters look like compton and VIZ's look like Beverly hills. 

I do not know why you are fighting this point strictly for the sake of fighting it.


ShinAkuma said:


> If you don't want your rationalizing to be pointed out then stop *RATIONALIZING*.


Or, stop saying someone is doing something they are not. That might be a better rule of thumb.


ShinAkuma said:


> If I'm wrong I will apologies. Won't be the first or last time


To take the stance of, "I'll be condescending but if im wrong I'll say sorry" is a shitty way to go about talking to people but whatever, you do you.



ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so your rational on the subject then. I will put the apology back in my pocket.
> 
> You have an idea as to why things happen, and no matter what details come to light, you squeeze them into your idea of what should be even if they don't fit. This idea of yours is not an official rule of Shounen or Viz. You cannot hold the manga to your idea as though it is some official procedure.
> 
> I have shown the manga is inconsistent in how memories and flashbacks are handled. Yes there is a guideline on how they usually handle these things, but it is not a hard and fast rule that has to be followed NO MATTER WHAT and the lack of such indicators (black bars/faded scenes) cannot disqualify flashbacks as being flashbacks.


You know why this is just fuckin dumb? When the scan was posted, proving my analysis, and disproving my conclusion, i conceded. So what the fuck are you talking about. "no matter what details come to light, you squeeze them into your idea of what should be even if they don't fit" I did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this. 
In fact, this is the clearest case of projection I have EVER seen. You do this very thing on this topic. You made up all sorts of shit to fit why it didnt have to be a mistake. that they just dont have to do it. you said that to "squeeze them into your idea of what should be even if they don't fit". 

The fact that it was corrected means it IS a rule. And it WAS a mistake. That is a fact. If they didn't have to, why would they fix it? Answer that or concede. Cause all you are saying is it wasn't a mistake just cause. You don't fix something that isn't wrong. What kind of logic is that?

And whats worse is the fact that a singled out moment is not indicative of it being inconsistent. It indicates a MISTAKE. So I would be right either way. But if you REALLY think I'm wrong on this I will show you either other instances of that very kind of moment, OR I will show you a guide on how to read manga.


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## ShinAkuma (May 15, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I AM dealing in facts,



No.

Stop it.



> Or, stop saying someone is doing something they are not. That might be a better rule of thumb.



You are doing it, hence....



> To take the stance of, "I'll be condescending but if im wrong I'll say sorry" is a shitty way to go about talking to people but whatever, you do you.



Sure thing.



> You know why this is just fuckin dumb? When the scan was posted, proving my analysis, and disproving my conclusion, i conceded. So what the fuck are you talking about. "no matter what details come to light, you squeeze them into your idea of what should be even if they don't fit" I did the EXACT OPPOSITE of this.



The details is that we see Obito as Madara meeting with Itachi with no flashback indicator but obviously a FUCKING FLASHBACK.

But good on you for admitting you were wrong when being shown IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.



> In fact, this is the clearest case of projection I have EVER seen.



Yes I'm projecting. I am outlining "rules" that the manga must follow even though these rules don't exist anywhere.

You got me.



> The fact that it was corrected means it IS a rule. And it WAS a mistake.



For one we don't know if it was a mistake originally because we don't have the Japanese original. However even if it was I WAS THE ONE WHO SUGGESTED IT WAS A MISTAKE. I never ruled out it was a mistake.

The issue was everybody knew it was a flashback but you refused because it didn't meet your "official" criteria.

Not like this conversation will go anywhere.



> That is a fact. If they didn't have to, why would they fix it? Answer that or concede. Cause all you are saying is it wasn't a mistake just cause. You don't fix something that isn't wrong. What kind of logic is that?



I'm saying it's not a rule, at least not in the manner you think it is. We HAVE AT LEAST 1 FLASHBACK WITHOUT THIS FILTER. Now perhaps the Viz fixed those as well, but that would not change there is no official procedure that lines up with your rational about it, which is the point.



> And whats worse is the fact that a singled out moment is not indicative of it being inconsistent.



in·con·sist·ent
/ˌinkənˈsist(ə)nt/
_adjective_
adjective: *inconsistent*
not staying the same throughout.
"the quality of the material was often inconsistent"



> It indicates a MISTAKE.



Did they fix Obito/Itachi?

If so my apologies.


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## Blaze Release (May 15, 2019)

I do not believe anybody has disputed that.
What is embarassing is those who have exaggerrated the other times they have fought often touting nonsense such as Bee going full BM mode and using TBB at every direction, even though we have been told as a fact that this is incorrect. Not realising that the initial fight we saw between them was an insight into how their other fights went and not what his fanbase have made up in their heads.

Tbh it is of no surprise that Minato managed to take both on.
Base Bee or even v1 Bee.
Heck even V2 Bee and EI would've posed no threat to him.

Minato has already evaded the faster brothers attack.
Both heavily rely on CQC and both are slower than minato.
They were never going to land a hit on him.

An unrestricted Bee, by that i mean BM, would pose more of threat to Minato due to his AOE attacks such as Eight-Tailed beast twister and Bijuu bomb barrage. Than a combination of EI and a restricted Bee.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mad Scientist (May 16, 2019)

Sage light said:


> flat out bypassed 33X stratospheric upgrade battle anxiety


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## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No.
> 
> Stop it.


Yes. Nothing I am saying is false, and you simply disagreeing because YOU dont understand doesn't mean I am not.


ShinAkuma said:


> You are doing it, hence....


Im not doing it now and I wasn't before.


ShinAkuma said:


> The details is that we see Obito as Madara meeting with Itachi with no flashback indicator but obviously a FUCKING FLASHBACK.


It is not a flashback. It is him telling a story parts of which contain a flashback moments.


ShinAkuma said:


> But good on you for admitting you were wrong when being shown IRREFUTABLE EVIDENCE.


Ridiculous. I simply ask for there to be evidence that it was a flashback as there was none in the OG Manga. That's why they changed it, because it was a mistake. That is irrefutable and YOU can't accept that. Why? I have no clue.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes I'm projecting. I am outlining "rules" that the manga must follow even though these rules don't exist anywhere.
> 
> You got me.


So you really really think there is not structure to Manga? Do you also think Kishimoto puts flashback filters and blackline borders over CURRENT moments? DO you really need to be told that that is how he lays out his manga? Can you not read it for yourself and figure it out?
How ridiculous is it to say
"Yeah when he does X it is a flashback, when he does Y, it's current events,"
Oh so since its Y it must be current events.
"Nope"
but...
"Nope, 1 time Kishimoto made a mistake, therefore, the ruls no longer apply."

You are literally saying that if the scene has a flashback filter, it IS definitely a flashback, If it does not have the filter it is maybe a flashback. Do you have any idea how professionally retarded that would make kishimoto? You must maintain a consistent style to properly convey the events in a story.


ShinAkuma said:


> For one we don't know if it was a mistake originally because we don't have the Japanese original


Yes we do, your lack of understanding of how image scanning works does not mean it was not a mistake. 

On the left is the viz scan, on the right is the scan from jump cleaned by fans.
In order to obtain the same level of white in each image you have to super max the brightness. look what happens to Bees skin color which is the same fuckin color of the flashback filter over minato in the viz version. He turns white. Notice how he isnt white in the fan scan? 
Notice what else happens to the image. see the sky? see the rocks? see the spikes on the though bubble? notice how over-whitening eliminates them about 50% yet the fan scan didnt have that problem.
THAT is why what you are saying is impossible. Because it fuckin is. Stop acting like a 1 in a trillion percent chance is the likely reason instead of a mistake which Kishimoto has made before plenty of times.
First off, Look at the thought bubbles. 


ShinAkuma said:


> However even if it was I WAS THE ONE WHO SUGGESTED IT WAS A MISTAKE. I never ruled out it was a mistake.


Bro, you are also suggesting it is something IMPOSSIBLE. it is a 99.99999999999999% chance it was a mistake.


ShinAkuma said:


> The issue was everybody knew it was a flashback but you refused because it didn't meet your "official" criteria.


Oh you mean THE official criteria? The reason it was corrected? Oh, that means you all were just wanking the fuck out of minato for no reason. Thats pathetic.
Just because in the end you were correct does NOT mean you reasons for that conclusion were correct. You were saying it was a flashback simply because you thought it was, going against the MANGA saying Bee was banned from leaving the village not like 20 chapters later.
Going against the Mangas use of flashback filters, a mistake it CORRECTS, PROVING my logic.


ShinAkuma said:


> Not like this conversation will go anywhere.


If you keep denying the fact that Jump fixed that in the volume version because it should have had a flashback filter, you are right. If it didn't need one, they would not have added one. This is a great example of YOU trying to rationalize, its a straightforward mistake.
This loss avoidance game you are playing here is baffling to me.


ShinAkuma said:


> I'm saying it's not a rule, at least not in the manner you think it is. We HAVE AT LEAST 1 FLASHBACK WITHOUT THIS FILTER. Now perhaps the Viz fixed those as well, but that would not change there is no official procedure that lines up with your rational about it, which is the point.


You are playing 2 sides here.
1. it isnt a rule
2. it could be a mistake
One implies there is no rule, simple.
Two implies  there is a rule thats why they fixed it, because it went against THE RULE. This is probably why you are fighting the white balance shit so hard, once you drop that point you are forced to acknowledge that there is a rule, otherwise they would not have fixed it.


ShinAkuma said:


> in·con·sist·ent
> /ˌinkənˈsist(ə)nt/
> _adjective_
> adjective: *inconsistent*
> ...


"Manga is inconsistent with its flashback style" PLURAL
"There is a single inconsistency" SINGULAR
A singular moment being inconsistent is not grounds to say the manga is inconsistent in its way of handling flashbacks.


ShinAkuma said:


> Did they fix Obito/Itachi?
> 
> If so my apologies.


 They dont have to, it is a separate style of narration.
I really dont see how you are even contesting this whole thing. The scene is won by the Minato side yet you cant bare to concede that my logic in analyzing the scene from the OG manga was accurate? 
It is utterly basic.
No flashback filter. I say its not a flashback.
Oh the corrected version has a filter, that must mean the original was a mistake.
You: No, you were wrong in both instances! They fixed it cause they never fixed it cause they fixed it cause the rules are that there are no rules, so they needed to fix that. Cause if not, it would have matched the nonrule rule that they strive to maintain.
The amount of flip flopping on this has reached new levels.


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## ShinAkuma (May 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Yes. Nothing I am saying is false, and you simply disagreeing because YOU dont understand doesn't mean I am not.



I understand your rationale just fine, it's simply not an official rule.



> Im not doing it now and I wasn't before.



Keep on trucking.



> It is not a flashback.



Yes it is. Flashbacks from both Obito and Sasuke.



> Ridiculous. I simply ask for there to be evidence that it was a flashback as there was none in the OG Manga.



Where is the OG manga page?



> So you really really think there is not structure to Manga?



Never said that. In fact I said the opposite.

Stop dropping e-diarrhea that doesn't even pay attention to what is discussed.



> You are literally saying that if the scene has a flashback filter, it IS definitely a flashback, If it does not have the filter it is maybe a flashback. Do you have any idea how professionally retarded that would make kishimoto? You must maintain a consistent style to properly convey the events in a story.



reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more

Tons of flashbacks without the flashback filter.




> Yes we do.



Sure.

Provide the Japanese original.



> Bro, you are also suggesting it is something IMPOSSIBLE.



No.



> Oh you mean THE official criteria?



Yes.

Let's see the memo or post or official document that say Shounen MUST always adhere to these guidelines. Somebody gotta get fired for issues 400 and 401!

I'll wait.



> If you keep denying the fact that Jump fixed



I denied nothing.

Get the fuck out.



> You are playing 2 sides here.



Yes because there is multiple possibilities.



> "Manga is inconsistent with its flashback style" PLURAL
> "There is a single inconsistency" SINGULAR



There's more than one. I didn't go through every chapter to accumulate them all.

reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more
reach all the way to the top of tower and maybe even more


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## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I understand your rationale just fine, it's simply not an official rule.


Then why did they fix it?


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes it is. Flashbacks from both Obito and Sasuke.


No, it has SOME flashbacks and some general story telling.


ShinAkuma said:


> Where is the OG manga page?


The scanned one IS the OG one. I already proved that a fucked white balance would turn killer Bee white. and remove the spikes, meaning, that is not what happened.
You are grasping at straws here.


ShinAkuma said:


> Never said that. In fact I said the opposite.
> 
> Stop dropping e-diarrhea that doesn't even pay attention to what is discussed.


Doesnt pay attention to what is discussed? It is a competely valid interpretation of what you said. I get it, you dont feel like the manga has a strict structure and can simply throw out flashbacks whenever wherever with no indication whatsoever. But then later come back and fix it, cause that makes sense.


ShinAkuma said:


> teleporting them
> teleporting them
> teleporting them
> teleporting them
> ...


If you dont understand the anatomy of that scene I don't know what to tell you. And the fact that Jump fixed 519 and NOT 400 and 401 means that that is how THAT scene is supposed to flow according to the structure of Naruto.


ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> Provide the Japanese original.


There is no reason to even half way take your whitebalance point seriously, so the scanned image is, for all intents and purposes, THE original. It also assumes this happens more than once. what other examples support this? None. So you demand for this evidence is baseless.


ShinAkuma said:


> No


Yes, yes you are, you are assuming that a single image was scanned in the worst way possible and ONLY the top half was fucked. 


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes.
> 
> Let's see the memo or post or official document that say Shounen MUST always adhere to these guidelines. Somebody gotta get fired for issues 400 and 401!
> 
> I'll wait.


Go ahead and explain why 519 was fixed then. That IN AND OF ITSELF is proof that there IS  a rule. You have no other logical explanation. You can reach and reach all the way to fuckin Mars, you will never logically say there is no rule for that AND it was fixed. That is a contradiction.
and SHOUNEN don't have to all be the same. MANGAKA do. You have to be consistent within your own story or else you will cause confusion.



ShinAkuma said:


> I denied nothing.
> 
> Get the fuck out.


You certainly denied it. And have ignored every shred of counterevidence.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes because there is multiple possibilities.


Not the point.
The point is, you are saying there is no rules. but the fact that it was corrected implies there IS rules. you CANNOT play both fields. That is logically contradictory.



ShinAkuma said:


> There's more than one. I didn't go through every chapter to accumulate them all.
> 
> teleporting them
> teleporting them
> ...


 For that one specific scene. and it is consistent within that scene and since the scanned version and the Viz version have the same shit, that means that the structure of that scene is indeed correct. That does not apply to 519. or the rest of the manga. i dont even think there is a similar scene in the entire manga to 400 and 401.


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Then why did they fix it?



Possibly so peeps like you won't argue that it's a flashback even if it's 100000% obvious lol

Plus without the Japanese original we don't know if there was a discrepancy between the Viz and Jump versions.



> No, it has SOME flashbacks and some general story telling.



I am specifically referencing the flashback parts.



> The scanned one IS the OG one.



THE

JAPANESE

ORIGINAL

English, do you speak it?



> Doesnt pay attention to what is discussed?



Yes, you don't pay attention.

You just say whatever comes to mind regardless of what has been said.



> If you dont understand the anatomy of that scene I don't know what to tell you.



The anatomy is not the issue. Your "rules" are.



> There is no reason



Let's examine the Japanese original first before assuming any mistakes on Jump's part.



> Yes, yes you are, you are assuming that a single image was scanned in the worst way possible and ONLY the top half was fucked.



Nobody assumed that.

Get the fuck outta here with that shit.



> Go ahead and explain why 519 was fixed then.



We don't know it was fixed as we haven't seen the Japanese original.

Even if it was fixed we still have two chapters worth of inconsistencies.



> You certainly denied it.



No.



> And have ignored every shred of counterevidence.



Japanese original is the only valid evidence here.



> Not the point.



It's my point.



> The point is, you are saying there is no rules.



No I didn't.

I said *your rules* aren't official.

Learn and understand the difference.



> For that one specific scene.



The flashback filter is applied on and off during these chapters.

It is inconsistent.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Possibly so peeps like you won't argue that it's a flashback even if it's 100000% obvious lol


I hope this was a joke. Otherwise, you should be ashamed that you even said something so ridiculous.


ShinAkuma said:


> Plus without the Japanese original we don't know if there was a discrepancy between the Viz and Jump versions.


lol. Your standard of evidence is off the charts levels of fuckin dumb, We have NO reason to assume the scanned version removed the filter. Until you can provide an adequate reason for that, there is no need to look for the unscanned raws.


ShinAkuma said:


> I am specifically referencing the flashback parts.


I'd explain but i dnt feel that would work here.


ShinAkuma said:


> THE
> 
> JAPANESE
> 
> ...


UNREASONABLE

STANDARDS

Debate, not even once.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, you don't pay attention.
> 
> You just say whatever comes to mind regardless of what has been said.


Except I'm RIGHT. And when you finally accept that, this point becomes fuckin retarded.


ShinAkuma said:


> The anatomy is not the issue. Your "rules" are.


How can you know that when you cant even understand the anatomy of it? You arent even capable of SEEING the rules and i assume you have read the whole manga. So how can you make an accurate judgement?


ShinAkuma said:


> Let's examine the Japanese original first before assuming any mistakes on Jump's part.


I have no access to the Japanese jump issues. Nor would I have any idea where to find them, ask Rai or Turrin. Regardless, that burden of proof would be on you as your reason for why the scanned one is potentially faulty has absolutely no validity.


ShinAkuma said:


> Nobody assumed that.
> 
> Get the fuck outta here with that shit.


You did. You straight up said that they scanned it and fucked it up. But seeing as how the bottom of the image doesnt have that problem, that means YOU ASSUME the bottom of it wasn't fucked up. Track the logic, please.


ShinAkuma said:


> We don't know it was fixed as we haven't seen the Japanese original.
> 
> Even if it was fixed we still have two chapters worth of inconsistencies.


I'd love to give you my "rationalization" of why that is but I have to break open Kishimotos skull and probe his brain to prove shit cause you wont except anything less than that or magic as proof.


ShinAkuma said:


> Japanese original is the only valid evidence here.


 No it isn't. Because the reason you made for questioning the scan was bullshit. EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT.



ShinAkuma said:


> No I didn't.
> 
> I said *your rules* aren't official.
> 
> Learn and understand the difference.


Thats retarded, bro. IM telling you what the rules are. I would not refer to them as MY rules. I would refer to them as THE rules. The conversation is about flash backs, you say the flashback rules i said arent official and can vary, meaning they aren't a rule in the first place. A rule is followed. so when i say you are saying there is no rules, it is IN CONTEXT TO THE DISCUSSION ABOUT FLASHBACK RULES which you indicate are nonexistent.
Basic fuckin english, which I seem to have to explain to you alot. Your point here is absolutely asinine.


ShinAkuma said:


> The flashback filter is applied on and off during these chapters.
> 
> It is inconsistent.


Just take a look and ask yourself WHY they are doing it that way. If you dont know, thats fine, but dont pretend someone else doesn't. Dont come at it from the point of "you're wrong". If you dont know you should be neutral.


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 16, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> I hope this was a joke. Otherwise, you should be ashamed that you even said something so ridiculous.



Take it however you want.



> lol. Your standard of evidence is off the charts levels of fuckin dumb,



No, it's just standard of evidence.

You claim the Viz was fixed from the original. In order to validate that claim you must provide the original.

It's how evidence works.



> I'd explain but i dnt feel that would work here.



I'm well aware of how you rationalize this.



> UNREASONABLE
> 
> STANDARDS



Claim = Fixed from the original

Evidence = By providing NOT THE ORIGINAL

Get the fuck O U T  O F  H E R E  



> Except I'm RIGHT.



Possibly and easy to prove - where are these official rules you are invoking?



> How can you know that when you cant even understand the anatomy of it?



We ain't even there yet.

Establish the official rules first. Then we can discuss "anatomy".



> You did. You straight up said that they scanned it and fucked it up.



I offered it as a *possibility*

Learn to fucking read.



> I'd love to give you my "rationalization" of why that is but I have to break open Kishimotos skull and probe his brain to prove shit cause you wont except anything less than that or magic as proof.



Hey it's your claim this is some hard and fast rule. Not my fucking problem you can't offer proof on the claims you pull outta your ass.



> No it isn't. Because the reason you made for questioning the scan was bullshit. EVEN IF YOU ARE RIGHT.



I didn't question the scan, you did.

Once Hussain posted it I knew it was a flashback. No question.



> Thats retarded, bro. IM telling you what the rules are. I would not refer to them as MY rules.



Your rules. If they aren't please provide the Jump/Viz official reading guide or whatever.

You keep saying they are rules so you must have got them from somewhere.



> Just take a look and ask yourself WHY they are doing it that way.



Hmmmm let me think....oh yeah....probably because it's not a rule therefore THEY DON'T HAVE TO.


----------



## Trojan (May 16, 2019)

@kokodeshide was given the original page (JP) and VIZ (English)
what's the problem now? 


just move on, no need to make a debate out of nothing... 
@kokodeshide you are wrong, plain and simple.

Move on...


----------



## Alita (May 16, 2019)

Just cause minato can hold his own against a young less experienced A and base B doesn't necessarily mean he can defeat either one of them in a one on one fight. It's debatable whether he can even overcome his ration armor or bee's shroud defenses in V1 and V2. Don't even get me started with bijuu mode.


----------



## kokodeshide (May 16, 2019)

Hussain said:


> @kokodeshide was given the original page (JP) and VIZ (English)
> what's the problem now?
> 
> 
> ...


Move on from what? I totally CONCEDED that the image was a flashback. I'm simply saying that my logic bases on the image I had was correct. He is saying it wasn't.
The Volume version shows the flashback. The scan of Jump doesn't. I said they fixed it to add the flashback filter to imply its a flashback as it wasn't there in Jump. Is that not simple? Shin is the one who is completely blowing this WAY out of proportion by requesting insane levels of proof on how to read manga.
To really hammer it in.
I repeat. I CONCEDE it was a flashback.
Again? I CONCEDE it was a flashback.
The fact that you are saying I'm wrong tells me you didn't read the walls of text, I dont blame you.



ShinAkuma said:


> No, it's just standard of evidence.
> 
> You claim the Viz was fixed from the original. In order to validate that claim you must provide the original.
> 
> It's how evidence works.


Except i was NEVER saying the OG unscanned raw had or didnt have it. only that scanning it wouldnt do what you said it could. YOU are the one who needs to prove the raw unscanned one does or doesnt have it, not me. You brought that up. I have been working off the scanned version the entire time. Debate 101. Please stop making this mistake.


ShinAkuma said:


> I offered it as a *possibility*
> 
> Learn to fucking read.


And maybe fuckin SLOTHS scanned it with fuckin scanner made from moss. The possibility you put forward was absolutely idiotic. As I demonstrated in a pic you didnt even address. So it isnt that i need to learn to read, you need to learn how to debate.


ShinAkuma said:


> I didn't question the scan, you did.
> 
> Once Hussain posted it I knew it was a flashback. No question.


Yeah you did. How? Tell me shin.
How can you differentiate between nonflashback "mentions" and flashbacks? Enlighten me. Could it be...that there is a layout aspect to manga you don't understand consciously but your subconscious does?
Explain WHY you thought it was a flashback. What were the signs? Why is that not simply a mention scene like we see all throughout the manga as well. I cant wait for the response.


ShinAkuma said:


> Your rules. If they aren't please provide the Jump/Viz official reading guide or whatever.
> 
> You keep saying they are rules so you must have got them from somewhere.


YOU can say my rules. I cannot say that. First off, gather them from reading the manga, its common sense. Don't worry, I'll find the guide as soon as you actually respond in a meaningful way to anything i have said.


ShinAkuma said:


> Hmmmm let me think....oh yeah....probably because it's not a rule therefore THEY DON'T HAVE TO.


THEN WHY DID THEY FIX 519!? You better hope the lord the jump raw has the flashback filter on it, cause this is just dumb.
If they dont have to, why did they fix 519? if it is known that you dont have to, they wouldnt have bothered fixing 519. Can you REALLY not understand that? Seriously?
You only make a correction when something is WRONG.


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Oh, that hahahahahahahahaha!
> In that very post i say scanners dont remove filters which implies that that IS representative of the OG manga. You shouldnt tell me to keep my thoughts straight when you cant even read what i am saying correctly. This is now the 4th time i've had to correct your reading.



I get you don't have a hot fucking clue what you're saying 99% of the time, but this is still just pure garbage.

You said;
>Except i was NEVER saying the OG unscanned raw had or didnt have it. only that scanning it wouldnt do what you said it could.

After you said;
>That's an extremely interesting addition by VIZ. Why they added that I have no idea.

Either look up the definition for never or get your shit straight.



> Bullshit. I'm responding to your condescending attitude



I don't give a shit about your tone, it's your dumb as fuck premise that's based completely in your own delusion that you try to pimp as "facts" while simultaneously crying about any fucking suggestion that comes your way.

Get rid of your hypocritical bullshit or don't be surprised when you get called out on it.



> And to your point. If me saying your suggestion is wrong is equal to me crying in my cereal you seriously have a confidence problem.



Boohoo



> You suggested something, i counter, you say im cryingin my cereal?



You haven't countered jackshit. You offer some headcanon nonsense and then take offense when it's pointed out to be complete bullshit.

Too fucking bad.



> And Obito talked about Hagoromo and Juubi and it showed them, and it also showed all the bijuu, i doubt he has seen all of those things.



No fucking shit. Obviously When Obito is talking about Itachi and THEY SHOW HIS FUCKING MEETING it's a FUCKING FLASHBACK.

But noooooo, Koko has some delusional wishy washy nonsense that has no basis in reality, so let's just ignore that. Woooooooooo



> Lol. You say that with such confidence despite not know if they do or not.



It's obviously not a hard rule because they don't ALWAYS FOLLOW IT.

Shocker.



> Then go ahead and prove it is in the jump raws.



It's your dipshit premise, not mine. Why the fuck _would I prove it_?

LMAO



> 400 and 401 dont speak for the whole manga,



You only need one unicorn to prove that unicorns exist.

Those chapters are all that is needed.



> In all reality, I'd rather have a peaceful discussion but i certain dont just let people be a dick unchallenged. You want me to be nice, be nice.



I don't care if you're nice or not. Running relentless bullshit nice or like an asshole still amounts to bullshit.

You're wrong, categorical so. You keep holding on to some delusion you propped up in your mind despite being wrong as fuck relentlessly. Your attitude at this point is irrelevant.


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 17, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Haaaaa. 99% of the time, funny. Let me correct you, AGAIN.



You have yet to correct anything.



> Nowhere in there, at any place, did i say the "OG unscanned raw manga".
> I said VIZ added the filter. That means what, Shin?



"Added a filter" implies there was not one ORIGINALLY.

How can you know what was orginally there if you have never seen the original?

You can't.



> That means what i was looking at did not have it.



Yes an *UNOFFICIAL RELEASE*.

Why the fuck would Viz be adding anything to unofficial releases.

Stop talking out of your ass and you wouldn't be having these problems.



> Crying?



You>Viz added this filter, I wonder why?

Anybody with half a brain> How do you know viz added it? Can you provide the original?

You>OMG THIS STANDARD OF EVIDENCE IS RIDICULOUS

Yeah, crying.



> Yes I have, I have countered at least 4 different points.



Delusion thy name is Kokodeshide.



> Way to ignore the other scenes, bruv.



Yes, and get used to it. I'm not interested in navigating the relentless firewall of delusion you keep hiding behind.

We have examples of flashbacks without the filter.

Done.



> Then why would they change it? You have failed to answer this one about 10 times.



Then make it 11.

We don't know they changed anything.

We also have examples of flashbacks without the flashback filter.



> Because it was NEVER my premise, genius.



*"That's an extremely interesting addition by VIZ"*

LMAO



> Hey...what do you know...you are dead fuckin wrong again.



Nope.



> Will you run from this again? We will see what kind of poster you are right here.



I'm the kind that will tell you that you're full of shit when you're full of shit.

Shitville - Population=You



> Thats not true. 1 Unicorn could be a mutation of a horse. not a species.



Hey, more pure nonsense. WOOOOOOOOOO



> Those chapters are not all you need cause the context matters.



Yes they are. I don't care about you're fake wishy washy pulled straight from the depths of your colon "rules".



> That's why you ignored 50 percent of the points that defeated your arguments, right?
> That's why you refused to answer how you knew Minatos scene was a flashback before the filter was added.
> That's why you ignored me correcting you on the basic english of my rules vs the rules.
> That's why you ignored me correcting you on the Japanese unscanned raws.
> ...



Simply nothing but bullshit and lies. I am not required to answer you relentless nonsense. I can simply point out that IT IS NONSENSE.[/quote][/quote]


----------



## kokodeshide (May 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You have yet to correct anything.


I did actually. I listed them already so I wont do it again.


ShinAkuma said:


> "Added a filter" implies there was not one ORIGINALLY.
> 
> How can you know what was orginally there if you have never seen the original?
> 
> You can't.


I REPEAT, THE SCANNED JUMP VERSION.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes an *UNOFFICIAL RELEASE*.
> 
> Why the fuck would Viz be adding anything to unofficial releases.
> 
> Stop talking out of your ass and you wouldn't be having these problems.


Jump isn't an unofficial release, bruv. Are you literally too emotionally invested to realize that this "unofficial" release is a scan of the official release? Please answer actually.


ShinAkuma said:


> You>Viz added this filter, I wonder why?
> 
> Anybody with half a brain> How do you know viz added it? Can you provide the original?
> 
> ...


Retarded. The fan scan is a reliable scan of the original. You are implying it is not. prove it in this case. Show me the raws.


ShinAkuma said:


> Delusion thy name is Kokodeshide.


How about you stop being a coward and answer questions instead of posturing to protect your fragile ego.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, and get used to it. I'm not interested in navigating the relentless firewall of delusion you keep hiding behind.
> 
> We have examples of flashbacks without the filter.
> 
> Done.


Firewall of delusion? You mean 7 points you avoided and didnt even respond to? 


ShinAkuma said:


> Then make it 11.
> 
> We don't know they changed anything.
> 
> We also have examples of flashbacks without the flashback filter.


You are saying the fan scan is unreliable, prove it. That is your claim. PROVE IT.


ShinAkuma said:


> *"That's an extremely interesting addition by VIZ"*
> 
> LMAO


In reality i meant thats an extremely interesting addition by Shueisha but regardless, the point is that it is an addition not in the jump scan. as we can see by the scanned version. Reading comprehension bro.
VIZ scan=Filter
Jump fan scan=no filter.
Stop flailing and actually post some sense.


ShinAkuma said:


> Nope.


So you werent the one to bring it up? hahahahahah denial at its finest, people!


ShinAkuma said:


> I'm the kind that will tell you that you're full of shit when you're full of shit.
> 
> Shitville - Population=You


That must be the shit goggles you have on cause i count 7 points you cowered from cause you cant bare the thought of losing.


ShinAkuma said:


> Hey, more pure nonsense. WOOOOOOOOOO


Uhhhhh, no, fact but whatever. Learn some basic biology please.


ShinAkuma said:


> Yes they are. I don't care about you're fake wishy washy pulled straight from the depths of your colon "rules".


How cute.


ShinAkuma said:


> Simply nothing but bullshit and lies. I am not required to answer you relentless nonsense. I can simply point out that IT IS NONSENSE.


Bullshit and lies? I backed up everything i said bro, do i have to link it all? Or if i did would you ignore that too? you are at 7 ignored points that i brought. The death spiral begins. You are losing ground.

we have
That's why you refused to answer how you knew Minatos scene was a flashback before the filter was added. (Ignore counter 2)
That's why you ignored me correcting you on the basic english of my rules vs the rules.
That's why you ignored me correcting you on the Japanese unscanned raws.
That's why you ignored me proving to you that the scanning process would not do what you are saying.
That's why you refuse to acknowledge that if there was no rules they wouldn't fix it.
2 new ones
*Refusal to awknowlege you said japanese raws first and not understanding i was never talking about them.
Lack of understanding that Jump chapters are not Viz/Shueisha chapters*
This is getting embarrassing. That last one is common sense. Where did you think the weekly chapters came from lolol?


----------



## Sufex (May 17, 2019)

Part 2 of the Koko vs Shinakuma saga.


----------



## Grinningfox (May 17, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Part 2 of the Koko vs Shinakuma saga.



A personal fave


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## Trojan (May 17, 2019)

Is it just me, or is this the most pointless debate in recent history? 

the point is if that was a flashback or not. You both, now, agree that it is.
So, why is this extra stuff needed now? 

like I honestly don't get it.... lol


----------



## kokodeshide (May 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Is it just me, or is this the most pointless debate in recent history?
> 
> the point is if that was a flashback or not. You both, now, agree that it is.
> So, why is this extra stuff needed now?
> ...


Ask him, bro. He really cant accept that it was a mistake. Can I get some support on this here? Maybe hearing it from someone else would help him. Like really. It is obviously a mistake the was fixed in the volume, right?


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## Ziggy Stardust (May 18, 2019)

The fact that there were fights after the first encounter doesn't bode well for Minato....

1) he tagged Bee with Hiraishin

2) the mark is more permanent than a tattoo

3) Bee outlives Minato

It means in their _subsequent _battles after Bee was tagged, he could never get a clean shot, or Bee was just in Bijou mode and the future Hokage couldn't really do anything bar calling forth the Reaper, which he doesn't really want to do. 

I'm starting to think this panel here wasn't retconned :


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## Sufex (May 18, 2019)

These guys have been arguing whether viz made a mistake or not for 4 pages 

@kokodeshide @ShinAkuma There is a time to stop, for your own sanity. Neither of you will give up. so lets call it a draw


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## kokodeshide (May 18, 2019)

Sufex said:


> These guys have been arguing whether viz made a mistake or not for 4 pages
> 
> @kokodeshide @ShinAkuma There is a time to stop, for your own sanity. Neither of you will give up. so lets call it a draw


Then someone needs to tell him he's being ridiculous. Is it not obvious that its a mistake that was fixed in the volumes???


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## ShinAkuma (May 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Show me where ANYONE said that.



If you claim Viz made a change from the original you need to provide the original.

These answers will never change.


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## Sufex (May 18, 2019)

Welp, it was worth  a shot


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## kokodeshide (May 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> If you claim Viz made a change from the original you need to provide the original.
> 
> These answers will never change.


Except I never said that. You made the claim the scanners fucked up and have yet to prove that.
Tell me, if I produced the raw pictures, what will you say?


Sufex said:


> Welp, it was worth  a shot


You see how he literally dodged everything I said?


----------



## ShinAkuma (May 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Except I never said that.



"interesting addition by Viz" 

Viz cannot add to unofficial sources. 



> You made the claim



No. I offered a hypothetical scenario. I never said it happened. 

This just highlights how you simply refuse to pay attention and just say whatever comes to mind.


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## Sufex (May 18, 2019)

Ziggy Stardust said:


> The fact that there were fights after the first encounter doesn't bode well for Minato....
> 
> 1) he tagged Bee with Hiraishin
> 
> ...


Think about this:

-We know he fought both of them multiple times to a stalemate
-We know Bee used Biju mode since he is the ONLY one he could have observed using it for rasengan (cant be kuruma due to obito and the attack)
-We know A4 thought minato was the GOAT shinobi couldn't be surpassed.

What does this all point to?

Reactions: Like 1


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## dergeist (May 18, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Think about this:
> 
> -We know he fought both of them multiple times to a stalemate
> -We know Bee used Biju mode since he is the ONLY one he observed using it (cant be kuruma due to obito and the attack)
> ...



Running away would be a stalemate I suppose. 
The rest is just wrong here's a timeline of events for you.

Minato spent 3 years making the rasengan.
Kakashi had the Chidori, but he already knew the rasengan in gaiden, at 13.
Minato would've had the Rasengan before that and seen it at least 3 years prior to Gaiden. If we go by the latest age possible then between the age of 20-21.
Minato became Hokage after Kanabi bridge.
Minato became Hokage after battling Ay and KB.
Minato couldn't have seen KBs beastball and based it off of that.
The battle between the two teams happened shortly before they became Hokage. Minato knew he was going to become Hokage so the encounter was likely after Kanabi bridge, before his inauguration.


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## Sufex (May 18, 2019)

dergeist said:


> Running away would be a stalemate I suppose.
> The rest is just wrong here's a timeline of events for you.
> 
> Minato spent 3 years making the rasengan.
> ...


Canon is canon. Your beef is with kishi not me

Reactions: Like 2


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## dergeist (May 18, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Canon is canon. Your beef is with kishi not me



Or you're interpretation is just wrong, since it goes against clear canon, no?

Edit: Today was a good day, I think many a bubble have been burst.


----------



## Sufex (May 18, 2019)

dergeist said:


> Or you're interpretation is just wrong, since it goes against clear canon, no?
> 
> Edit: Today was a good day, I think many a bubble have been burst today.


----------



## Ziggy Stardust (May 18, 2019)

Sufex said:


> Think about this:
> 
> -We know he fought both of them multiple times to a stalemate
> -We know Bee used Biju mode since he is the ONLY one he observed using it (cant be kuruma due to obito and the attack)
> ...



The answer is... nothing new regarding Minato. 

He clearly couldn't kill either brother, but at the same time his FTG is perfect for evading their attacks. This was emphasised in their on panel fight, and obvious by their respective powers. 

We've also seen Minato warp a tbb, so nothing new here. 

... However, their are implications that Bee hasn't mastered all his jin powers : 



Which given the time since then and part 2 of the manga, wouldn't have been true against Sasuke. The Raikage claims Bee is even more talented than himself, while the former thinks Sasuke is _probably_ the strongest he's ever faced.


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## kokodeshide (May 18, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> "interesting addition by Viz"
> 
> Viz cannot add to unofficial sources.


Which is it?


ShinAkuma said:


> you claim Viz made a change from the original


or


ShinAkuma said:


> Viz cannot add to unofficial sources.


 meaning im saying they did.

Which is it? Am i saying they made changes to the original or am i saying they made changes to the unofficial version.


ShinAkuma said:


> No. I offered a hypothetical scenario. I never said it happened.
> 
> This just highlights how you simply refuse to pay attention and just say whatever comes to mind.


So you are gonna hide behind that? If you say something you cant be questioned about it? Why even bring it up? This just shows you to be a a coward who cant bare to have his opinions tested. Dodging questions non stop. I wonder if you would even answer questions if i conceded this point?


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## ShinAkuma (May 18, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Which is it?
> 
> or
> meaning im saying they did.
> ...



You said Viz made changes.

Viz cannot change an unofficial release.

Therefore you are implying Viz made a change from the original.



> So you are gonna hide behind that?



It's simply a statement of fact,



> If you say something you cant be questioned about it?



You just did question it. I offered clarification.


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> But not *original*.
> 
> Kinda the point.


And i dont see why that is an issue. We use scans to prove all sorts of shit all the time. If you think the scan is faulty, prove it.


ShinAkuma said:


> I had previously told you I would no longer entertain any of your red herring/non sequitur/strawmans


A direct question of your statements is not of those.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> And i dont see why that is an issue.



It would only be an issue in cases where one claims an official release like Viz was altered from the original.



> A direct question of your statements is not of those.



Anything that implies something different to what I said qualifies as red herring/non sequitur/strawmans.


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It would only be an issue in cases where one claims an official release like Viz was altered from the original.


Which you agree I never did. Since you agree i never did that, it'd down to you to provide the original if you think the scans are unreliable.
And yet again, we complete the circle.


ShinAkuma said:


> Anything that implies something different to what I said qualifies as red herring/non sequitur/strawmans.


Nowhere did i do that.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Which you agree I never did. Since you agree i never did that....



We didn't actually agree on anything.

If this is still true;

_You said Viz made changes.

Viz cannot change an unofficial release.

Therefore you are implying Viz made a change from the original._

Then you still have not proven that. If you don't actually maintain this position, then no problem.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Actually, yes we did.
> 
> Right there. As I have said a million times. You agree I was never talking about the raw original. You say that from the beginning you knew that.



Yes, and then I said;

_You said Viz made changes.

Viz cannot change an unofficial release.

Therefore you are implying Viz made a change from the original.
_
This never changes. NEVER.


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes, and then I said;
> 
> _You said Viz made changes.
> 
> ...


And then I said.

_The scan is a reliable representation of the original and you have no reason to say it isnt._

This never changes. NEVER.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> And then I said.
> 
> _The scan is a reliable representation of the original and you have no reason to say it isnt._
> 
> This never changes. NEVER.



Covered by;

_Viz cannot change an unofficial release._

If you feel something was changed from the original you would need to provide the original.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Covered by:



Literally - _Viz cannot change an unofficial release._


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Literally - _Viz cannot change an unofficial release._


Which no one said. Notice how you are going in circles?


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Which no one said.



_You said Viz made changes.

Viz cannot change an unofficial release.

Therefore you are implying Viz made a change from the original._



> Notice how you are going in circles?



Yes. You keep bringing up the same items that have already been answered multiple times. As such I will just continue providing the same answers.


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes. You keep bringing up the same items that have already been answered multiple times. As such I will just continue providing the same answers.


Except you are USING something I NEVER said. You agree I never said it, I quoted you as proof of that. And then 2 seconds after you act like you never said that and repeat the same childish BS as before. This is the definition of dishonest debating, dude.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Except you are USING something I NEVER said.



This is the implication.

_You said Viz made changes.

Viz cannot change an unofficial release.

Therefore you are implying Viz made a change from the original.
_
If you maintain this stance then you must believe the original was altered. You don't need to explicitly say it. This is where your logic leads you.

If you don't believe this anymore, then no problem.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2019)

holy shit....

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> holy shit....


Even I am beginning to grow tired of this. This reaches river in Egypt levels of denial.


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## ShinAkuma (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> No it isn't, the implication..



Is always going to be that if you believe a change was made from the original you must show the original.


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> if you believe a change was made from the original


Ohhhh ok.
Here ya go!
 'again' (you can see the look in his face here).


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## Trojan (May 19, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Ohhhh ok.
> Here ya go!
> Link removed


I think he means that should show the "original" as in the JP raw, not the MS translated version... 

Edit:
As in the one before the volume, and the one in the volume...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 19, 2019)

anyway, the bottom line is Minato fought both A & B several times. Shit was obvious from the get-go...
only haters are trying so desperately to discredit/downplay his feats. Hence this pointless debate...

Reactions: Like 1


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## kokodeshide (May 19, 2019)

Hussain said:


> anyway, the bottom line is Minato fought both A & B several times


Yup. Never disputed that.



Hussain said:


> Shit was obvious from the get-go...


Since it was corrected, Id have to disagree.



Hussain said:


> only haters are trying so desperately to discredit/downplay his feats. Hence this pointless debate...


That wouldnt even be a downplay. Saying A could stalemate him is a downplay?


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## Trojan (May 20, 2019)

kokodeshide said:


> Saying A could stalemate him is a downplay?


Yes



> Since it was corrected, Id have to disagree.


Everyone knew that besides you, so I would have to say there was something wrong on your part. 

especially since even besides that manga page, it was flat out stated directly.

Reactions: Like 2


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## kokodeshide (May 20, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Yes


How? The databook straight up says A4 is the same speed as Minato. Minato says they would fight as Kage too. How is it a downplay?


Hussain said:


> Everyone knew that besides you, so I would have to say there was something wrong on your part.


I don't deny it was a flashback, I'm just saying that because it was corrected means you all though it was a flashback for no reason. Right or not, that much is true. The problem I have right now is that even though you were proven right about this you all cant admit the fact that there was no reason to believe it was a flashback outside of speculation.


Hussain said:


> especially since even besides that manga page, it was flat out stated directly.


And it is flat out stated Bee was banned from the village. And stated Minato would fight A4 as Kage. Do neither of those things mean anything to you? Only the singular databook statement saying he fought them more than once?
What about the other statements about Minato being weaker than people? Do those count to you?

I'm not trying to be antagonistic, I TRULY would like to have a decent conversation about this with someone willing to answer questions.


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## Rai (Jun 16, 2019)

Super late I know, but I think I found a example that might indicate volume fixed the flashback thing:

Weekly Shonen Jump:



Volume:


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