# Prime Hiruzen vs The Three Legendary Sannin



## Troyse22 (Jul 25, 2016)

Prime Hiruzen fighting the Sannin in their Primes.

Location: Destroyed Konoha
Restrictions: Edo Tensei
Katsuyu is not available, all other summons are.
Jiraiya does not start off in SM
Intent: Kill


Teacher vs his Students, who wins in this sad battle ?


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 25, 2016)

Changed conditions up top, please read and adjust accordingly (if you need to)


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

Removing et,katsuya,and jiraiya starting In sage mode means nothing it's still a stomp.


----------



## CrownedCrow (Jul 25, 2016)

We don't know everything about prime Hiruzen but I think it's pretty safe to say that he can't solo all three of the Sannin in their primes, doesn't even seem like that much of a fight to me.


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

@CrownedCrow 
@Troyse22 
Welcome to the forum.


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 25, 2016)

CrownedCrow said:


> We don't know everything about prime Hiruzen but I think it's pretty safe to say that he can't solo all three of the Sannin in their primes, doesn't even seem like that much of a fight to me.



It was said Prime Hiruzen was more powerful than Hashirama, are you telling me Hashi couldn't solo the 3 Sannin?


----------



## hbcaptain (Jul 25, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It was said Prime Hiruzen was more powerful than Hashirama, are you telling me Hashi couldn't solo the 3 Sannin?


That's a P1 statement only, it was said in the start of P2 that's Naruto is the only one who can surpass Minato "implying no one ever surpassing him", Raikage also said "no one never surpassed Minato" . It doesn't mean Hashirama or Madara can stomp them even the two of them at once .


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It was said Prime Hiruzen was more powerful than Hashirama, are you telling me Hashi couldn't solo the 3 Sannin?


Hurizen would not solo hashirama idc what anyone said. He may have at the start of the magna but then kishi decided to make hashi op.
First it the 3rd, then 4th and finally the 1st.
The 1st would crush any version of Hurizen.


----------



## CrownedCrow (Jul 25, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It was said Prime Hiruzen was more powerful than Hashirama, are you telling me Hashi couldn't solo the 3 Sannin?



By the end of Shippuden that was certainly retconned, at best at this point Prime Hiruzen is more powerful than Tobirama, and even then you could simply interpret it as more skilled.


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> That's a P1 statement only, it was said in the start of P2 that's Naruto is the only one who can surpass Minato "implying no one ever surpassing him", Raikage also said "no one never
> 
> 
> surpassed Minato" . It doesn't mean Hashirama or Madara can stomp them even the two of them at once .


Hashirama would beat minato with ease


----------



## hbcaptain (Jul 25, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> Hashirama would beat minato with ease


That's what I said, he can stomp both Prime Hiruzen and Minato at once .


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 25, 2016)

Still not seeing how this is a low difficulty stomp, do not forget that Hiruzen was able to solo Hashi, Tobi and Oro in P1, and that was in his old age.

And i'm confident Hashi and Tobi (even though they were only at 60% power) still far outclassed Jiraiya and Tsunade.

I can understand Hiruzen losing...but low difficulty...?


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

I think the Edo Tensei at that point were around 40-50%. Tobirama was even able to use ftg and hashirama wasn't able to use sage mode. It's pretty obvious that their weaker then the Sannin at that point.


----------



## CrownedCrow (Jul 25, 2016)

I don't think anything from that fight suggests that the reincarnated Hashi and Tobirama were stronger than Jiraiya and Tsunade, and Orochi wasn't exactly in top form either, he was in need of a new body, so he was far from his prime.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jul 25, 2016)

Jay2016 said:


> I think the Edo Tensei at that point were around 40-50%. Tobirama was even able to use ftg and hashirama wasn't able to use sage mode. It's pretty obvious that their weaker then the Sannin at that point.


you are greatly underrating Hashi, even at 40% he still at a whole another level compared to Prime Hiruzen. But well, I guess that's Kishi's problem 'cause he didn't planned that Hashirama would be that powerful compared to Tobirama in the beginning .


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

At 40% and incapable of sage mode. He would lose to the 3 sannin.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 25, 2016)

Hiruzen, even in his prime, was never considered a chakra monster or a top tier speedster. He likely possessed a lot of both of those things, maybe about as much as Jiraiya or Orochimaru have, but not much more. At best, he's slightly stronger than his students individually, and at worst, he's slightly weaker (fitting in with the student surpassing the teacher theme). Either way, he can't possibly take on all three by himself, and he gets overwhelmed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


----------



## CrownedCrow (Jul 25, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> you are greatly underrating Hashi, even at 40% he still at a whole another level compared to Prime Hiruzen. But well, I guess that's Kishi's problem 'cause he didn't planned that Hashirama would be that powerful compared to Tobirama in the beginning .


Tbh I think you're overrating Hashi, I don't see him being able to stomp Prime Hiruzen and Minato at the same time, maybe he'd win sure but he's not stomping them.


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

Well if he goes SS right away he could one shot them.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jul 25, 2016)

CrownedCrow said:


> Tbh I think you're overrating Hashi, I don't see him being able to stomp Prime Hiruzen and Minato at the same time, maybe he'd win sure but he's not stomping them.


Hashi is so strong that if he wants he can neg diff the whole Gokage, even with half of his power it's more than enough to neg diff Prime Hiruzen&Minato at once . Madara was force to fuse PS and full Kurama just to make a decent fight, that's how powerful he is .


----------



## CrownedCrow (Jul 25, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Hashi is so strong that if he wants he can neg diff the whole Gokage, even with half of his power it's more than enough to neg diff Prime Hiruzen&Minato at once . Madara was force to fuse PS and full Kurama just to make a decent fight, that's how powerful he is .


Saying him at half his power could do that to Hiruzen and Minato is just a blatantly ridiculous statement.


----------



## Jay2016 (Jul 25, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Hashi is so strong that if he wants he can neg diff the whole Gokage, even with half of his power it's more than enough to neg diff Prime Hiruzen&Minato at once . Madara was force to fuse PS and full Kurama just
> to make a decent fight,
> that's how powerful he is .


No I don't think 50% hashirama could take on Minato and Prime Hurizen.
He's incapable of SS and his other wood avatar.


----------



## Duhul10 (Jul 25, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Still not seeing how this is a low difficulty stomp, do not forget that* Hiruzen was able to solo Hashi, Tobi and Oro in P1*, and that was in his old age.
> 
> And *i'm confident* Hashi and *Tobi (even though they were only at 60% power) still far outclassed Jiraiya and Tsunade.*
> 
> I can understand Hiruzen losing...but low difficulty...?



Dude, those Tobi and Hashi get low-mid-diffed at most by base Jiraiya and maybe even less by Tsunade.
They were only capable of elemental ninjutsu, weak mokuton and taijutsu. I think you can add a genjutsu as well .

Also, when has Hiruzen solo'd Orochimaru ? He had to use his best jutsu to beat those corpses and take Oro's arms and that only occured because Oro took him lightly. A serious part 1 Orochimaru would low diff Hiruzen imo (Maybe, just maybe, a low-mid diff)

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 25, 2016)

I don't think Prime Hiruzen is even stronger than Tobirama let alone than Hashirama. All of Hiruzen Hype was from Part I and it got retconed so hard that it is not even funny!

As we know nothing of his so called Prime and all we know is that he had Genius Level Talent and is good in Ninjutsu which can be said on quite few others,I still don't see him defeating all 3 Prime Sannin and their Summons.

The Sannin win with Mid to may be High Difficulty!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Jul 25, 2016)

Prime Hiruzen was hyped as having surpassed Tobirama since childhood in all Shinobi arts according to the fourth databook. At best, we can assume that he is beyond both Tobirama and Minato in his prime but that is still not enough to say he can solo all three of the Sannin working together at their strongest. He'd probably hold his own for a while and pose a decent fight but I say he'd lose with mid difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 25, 2016)

If I am not mistaken he was said to have Talent greater than Tobirama,but that doesn't make him stronger,than neither Minato nor Tobirama. Having more Talent than Tobirama at that age doesn't make Hiruzen stronger. Neji also had more Talent than Lee,but with Gates Lee will crush Neji! 

Any way,Hiruzen even in Prime I doubt he can beat all 3 Sannin!


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2016)

Prime-Hiruzen's was hyped as the strongest Hokage back in early PI/PII, but one has to remember that back then the first and second Hokage combined weaker than Old-Hiruzen, who was in turn <= Orochimaru, so that hype wasn't nearly as huge back then. In-fact the main source of Prime-Hiruzen's hype was that if he was 10 Years younger he'd have ether beaten or drawn w/ Orochimaru who had the advantage of prep. Basically what i'm saying is even back when before retecon's a single Sannin seems like they'd still be a reasonably tough enemy for Hiruzen, especially if aid by circumstance. 

Fast forward to PII, and Prime-Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage anymore, but imo there is a decent amount of evidence indicating he may have been somewhat > Tobirama, which would probably put him at the level where Tsunade and Orochimaru would give him Mid/High diff and under the right circumstances give him extreme diff or perhaps force a draw; and he'd probably High/Extreme-Diff Jiraiya or could possibly loose under the right circumstances. Which seems to basically fit how Prime-Hiruzen would be placed given his PI hype prior to retecons

But nothing really indicates to me that he could take even 2 Sannin at once let alone 3 Sannin.


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Prime-Hiruzen's was hyped as the strongest Hokage back in early PI/PII, but one has to remember that back then the first and second Hokage combined weaker than Old-Hiruzen, who was in turn <= Orochimaru, so that hype wasn't nearly as huge back then. In-fact the main source of Prime-Hiruzen's hype was that if he was 10 Years younger he'd have ether beaten or drawn w/ Orochimaru who had the advantage of prep. Basically what i'm saying is even back when before retecon's a single Sannin seems like they'd still be a reasonably tough enemy for Hiruzen, especially if aid by circumstance.
> 
> Fast forward to PII, and Prime-Hiruzen isn't the strongest Hokage anymore, but imo there is a decent amount of evidence indicating he may have been somewhat > Tobirama, which would probably put him at the level where Tsunade and Orochimaru would give him Mid/High diff and under the right circumstances give him extreme diff or perhaps force a draw; and he'd probably High/Extreme-Diff Jiraiya or could possibly loose under the right circumstances. Which seems to basically fit how Prime-Hiruzen would be placed given his PI hype prior to retecons
> 
> But nothing really indicates to me that he could take even 2 Sannin at once let alone 3 Sannin.




Pretty sure Oro said that if Hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have succeeded in Sealing Orochimaru (in exchange for his own life), I'd hardly call that defeating someone. Unless I've missed something.


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 26, 2016)

We saw Hiruzen close to his Prime during Kyubi Accident and all he uas done is use Enma...

Kishi kust trolled Hiruzen beyond reason,and I really wanted to see what Prime Hiruzen is capable of,although I still don't see him as >Tobirama just because he was showing greater Talent than young Tobirama!


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Jul 26, 2016)

I think the DB said he was more skilled than Tobirama, which he was, because he was better at ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. But Tobirama was faster and had Hiraishin, not to mention his multiplying explosive tags. So even if Hiruzen was more skilled, he wasn't necessarily more powerful. But I guess that statement is up to interpretation.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jul 26, 2016)

Prime Hiruzen would need high diff to beat just one of his students imo. He could potentially tie with 2 using Shiki Fujin. But said "Prime" Hiruzen didn't have that tech.


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 26, 2016)

Around 40-5 Years Hiruzen and younger can beat the Sannin 1v1 with Mid to High Difficulty,and perhaps could deal with 2 depending on which 2,but even that is optimistic. But to think he can Solo all 3 even in his so called "Prime" version is kinda ridiculous in my opinion.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Pretty sure Oro said that if Hiruzen was 10 years younger he would have succeeded in Sealing Orochimaru (in exchange for his own life), I'd hardly call that defeating someone. Unless I've missed something.


Orochimaru didn't say anything, Data-book states if Hiruzen was just 10 Years younger the battle could have gone different, whether it would have been a draw or Hiruzen winning is left open ended however. Ether way though Orochimaru was fully prepped out for that fight, so Prime-Hiruzen drawing w/ a fully prepped out Orochimaru, indicates to me Prime-Hiruzen is suppose to be seen as > Orochimaru, this supported by other sources considering Old-Hiruzen roughly equal to Orochimaru.


----------



## Troyse22 (Jul 26, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> We saw Hiruzen close to his Prime during Kyubi Accident and all he uas done is use Enma...


12 years before his fight with Oro is not his prime.


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 26, 2016)

I guess you should focus on the "close to his Prime" part first and then quoting! 

And don't forget it as assumed that 10 years younger Hiruzen could have beaten Oro or would be closer to it.  A Shinobi Primes is wide therm it can be between 30 to 40-5 or less and etc. But 12 years are twelve years,we have seen what 50 years Old Sannin can do and Hiruzen haven't shown something so impressive bar his Edo Goton feat!


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2016)

Let's say Hiruzen was in his Prime during the Kyuubi attack, I don't see what's so bad about him leading the charge and probably doing most of the heavy lifting holding off 100% Kyuubi. Is it just because he was loosing in the end? Cause very few characters can actually beat the Demon-Fox w/o an ability specifically suited to suppressing the Fox's power; even Minato needed help from Kushina's chakra suppression chains to seal the Fox at the cost of his life.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 26, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Orochimaru didn't say anything, Data-book states if Hiruzen was just 10 Years younger the battle could have gone different, whether it would have been a draw or Hiruzen winning is left open ended however. Ether way though Orochimaru was fully prepped out for that fight, so Prime-Hiruzen drawing w/ a fully prepped out Orochimaru, indicates to me Prime-Hiruzen is suppose to be seen as > Orochimaru, this supported by other sources considering Old-Hiruzen roughly equal to Orochimaru.




Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was right.

How can you say Hiruzen was not prepped for the fight when the dude had ample of time to prepare and even wore his outfit for war? It's not like he was in his PJ's. Orochimaru only prepped the sound nin to create barriers so Hiruzen couldn't have back-up. The Edo tensei was his jutsu that he prepared for every battle, not just this single one.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 26, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Sorry to burst your bubble, but I was right.


Fair enough, I didn't recall that scene; only the Data-Book Statement.



> How can you say Hiruzen was not prepped for the fight when the dude had ample of time to prepare and even wore his outfit for war? It's not like he was in his PJ's. Orochimaru only prepped the sound nin to create barriers so Hiruzen couldn't have back-up. The Edo tensei was his jutsu that he prepared for every battle, not just this single one.


Orochimaru had prepp for Edo-Tensei. 

And no he doesn't have Edo-Hokages prepped for every battle; he specifically prepped them to take on Hiruzen. 

1) The fact that he was surprised when Minato failed to be summoned indicates, he was completing the summoning in that moment and had never summoned Minato before
2) The fact that he places the Fuda in the heads of Tobirama and Hashirama, after they were summoned, means he had not summoned them previously as otherwise the Fuda would already be in their heads
3) The fact that we see the Sound Genin were the living sacrifices for the Tensei summoning, means that Orochimaru prepped Edo-Tensei Hokages recently
4) Orochimaru says he prepped this specifically for his fight w/ Hiruzen, indicating that this was something he did special not something he always had prepped.

Hiruzen wearing his battle suit under his Hokage cloak can't even begin to compare to Orochimaru prepping Edo-Tensei in advance and staging the S4 barrier.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Bonly (Jul 26, 2016)

Depending on which jutsu he actually does have in his arsenal as well as what his fighting style is like along with how much his other stats would increase in his younger age he could prolly take out the Sannin but who knows for sure but if I had to take a shot in the dark I'd side with Hiruzen


----------



## Sapherosth (Jul 27, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Fair enough, I didn't recall that scene; only the Data-Book Statement.
> 
> 
> Orochimaru had prepp for Edo-Tensei.
> ...




I don't think I want to get involved in the whole Edo tensei prep thing. At least not in this thread.


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Prime Hiruzen fighting the Sannin in their Primes.
> 
> Location: Destroyed Konoha
> Restrictions: Edo Tensei
> ...


For all those in ridiculous favor in the "sannin stomp" aren't that well educated, yes prime hurizen has been noted to be the strongest hokage and yet doesn't have much to back it up. With that being said many will argue kishi aimed that in part 1 then switched it to hashi. One thing you can't ignore are statements made by other noteable ninja, they prove close to actual feats so lets go through a few That were mentioned in both part 1 and 2. Its been stated that prime hurizen was strongest kage during his reign (even in his old age) when in old age the kages were what they are of now/ when in his prime hanzou was on that list and hanzo defeated the sannin with zero information and low difficulty, again many will argue that they could of fought longer but jiraiya just about had it and all were growing very weak, even tsunade with her healing capabilties through in the towel. it was obvious death was near and aside that hanzo has always had good intentions and was suprised they lasted that long with him (out of several other elite ninja who had fallen by hanzos hand) being the man he is he saw that these ninja were different and would affect the world he leaves behind be it in a positive or negative way so he named them sannin. also many will argue that they werent as strong as they are now which i would agree on but that doesnt take away from the fact that jiraiya in his prime with sage mode and the knowledge he has of many elite ninja was extremely in denial that there was someone powerful enough to defeat hanzo. it has been said that hanzo has never lost a fight (before pain) with that being said hanzo was well past his prime when he died being suprised himself he was being defeated. Hanzo didnt hone his skill after his prime and this has been stated, he simply expected to be as strong as he is for a long time, fully convinced old age and no training wouldnt take a toll on him. With his failure to see that resulted in his death. On top of that danzou with his numerous sharingan at the time also praised hanzo stating that if hanzo would of known he had lied to him about the akatsuki's true motive he would of easily seeked him out and killed him (as hidden as danzo is) that must mean something. And on top of that hanzo fought the sannin 1 on 3, sarutobi could easily turn 1 on 3 to a consistent 3 on 5 and possibly more with all 5 natures and his massive chakra reserves (remember his chakra in old age palled considerably compared to prime stated by noteable anbu, oro, and enma who knows his fighting best.) Saru's strength, stamina, weapons and genjustu are on another level on top of that hes praised as the greatest ninjustu user of all time and just think they dont call him the proffesor world wide for nothing. The 3rd raikage was also kage during his reign the fastest shinobi for quite some time fighting the eight tails and drawing with it. And was inferior with saru... (if that doesn't say something i don't know what does) you also have to remember its master vs student ( its also been stated that jiraiya would have beaten pain if he had known more information and thats 6 on 1.) Saru has full knowledge of the sannin and you have to remember saru taught the sannin alot of what they know but not even close to everything he knows. 


Troyse22 said:


> Prime Hiruzen fighting the Sannin in their Primes.
> 
> Location: Destroyed Konoha
> Restrictions: Edo Tensei
> ...

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 3, 2016)

As much as I like Hiruzen as a Shinobi being strong and all and well rounded without Kekkei Genkai and such,I can't see him beating most of the Third Kages and quite others!

Kishi aimed him to be the "Strongest" but as story was going he chose Hashirama,or you mean Prime Hiruzen is stronger than Ashura Transcendent!? Hiruzen is strong and Experienced and in his Prime even more,but I doubt he is above Hashirama,Minato,Tobirama,Madara,Third Raikage,Ohnoki and so on!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> As much as I like Hiruzen as a Shinobi being strong and all and well rounded without Kekkei Genkai and such,I can't see him beating most of the Third Kages and quite others!
> 
> Kishi aimed him to be the "Strongest" but as story was going he chose Hashirama,or you mean Prime Hiruzen is stronger than Ashura Transcendent!? Hiruzen is strong and Experienced and in his Prime even more,but I doubt he is above Hashirama,Minato,Tobirama,Madara,Third Raikage,Ohnoki and so on!


He was the strongest kage of his reign so whether you can believe it or not its fact. Not being able to see it doesn't mean a thing and this was stated in part 2,  kishi wanted hashi to be the strongest ever in part 2 but needed to back up his claims about saru so he made him the.strongest of his time as hokage. And i believe hes superior with minato and the kage of his time, draws tobirama but inferior with hashi. Whether you belive it or not you have to look at the information given because not much is given on saru but from my knowledge he can beat all sannin with low to med difficulty


----------



## Lord Aizen (Aug 3, 2016)

why even mention prime hiruzen when we have absolutely zero info on him. since this forum is all about feats its pointless bringing him up

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Around 40-5 Years Hiruzen and younger can beat the Sannin 1v1 with Mid to High Difficulty,and perhaps could deal with 2 depending on which 2,but even that is optimistic. But to think he can Solo all 3 even in his so called "Prime" version is kinda ridiculous in my opinion.


 You need to do alot of research my friend, you belittle saru like he's a pushover. Prime saru would defeat prime oro easily. When saru found orochimaru and confronted him he seemed to never move a muscle and with oro being noted a superior ninja himself didnt notice the paper bomb he left oro after his fight with kakashi. The only to have injured oro the entire time was saru who extremely held back and without trying or other wise he would of  been dead as stated by enma. You should have a greater knowledge for ninja who lived in the warring states to the 3rd shinobi war many notible ninja who are overshadowed by main characters who pale in comparison (kamui uchiha) for example and im talking about before naruto turned super saiyan


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 3, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> You need to do alot of research my friend, you belittle saru like he's a pushover. Prime saru would defeat prime oro easily. When saru found orochimaru and confronted him he seemed to never move a muscle and with oro being noted a superior ninja himself didnt notice the paper bomb he left oro after his fight with kakashi. The only to have injured oro the entire time was saru who extremely held back and without trying or other wise he would of  been dead as stated by enma. You should have a greater knowledge for ninja who lived in the warring states to the 3rd shinobi war many notible ninja who are overshadowed by main characters who pale in comparison (kamui uchiha) for example and im talking about before naruto turned super saiyan


Hiruzen even with only Hype is impressive Character,but all he has shown is far from enough to prove his legendary prowess,even in flashbacks and in younger years wasn't shown anything impressive at all,bis best although quite impressive feat is Goton and DB statements,all if which can't suggest he can beat all Three Sannin especially in his Old Version! 

I am well aware of all the hype Hiruzen have and info of him,but without proves hype remain as rumors and speculation,words spreading from mouth to mouth! I have no doubt that Hiruzen was quite a Power Monster especially in Prime,but still he is not so great as some think him to be!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I guess you should focus on the "close to his Prime" part first and then quoting!
> 
> And don't forget it as assumed that 10 years younger Hiruzen could have beaten Oro or would be closer to it.  A Shinobi Primes is wide therm it can be between 30 to 40-5 or less and etc. But 12 years are twelve years,we have seen what 50 years Old Sannin can do and Hiruzen haven't shown something so impressive bar his Edo Goton feat!


We've seen what 50 year old sannin can do and alot of ppl compare it with 67 year old saru thats not fair.


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 3, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> We've seen what 50 year old sannin can do and alot of ppl compare it with 67 year old saru thats not fair.


Old Hiruzen may have a Chance against 1 Sannin but saying that he can take on and win against all 3 Sannin is kinda too much in my opinion!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Hiruzen even with only Hype is impressive Character,but all he has shown is far from enough to prove his legendary prowess,even in flashbacks and in younger years wasn't shown anything impressive at all,bis best although quite impressive feat is Goton and DB statements,all if which can't suggest he can beat all Three Sannin especially in his Old Version!
> 
> I am well aware of all the hype Hiruzen have and info of him,but without proves hype remain as rumors and speculation,words spreading from mouth to mouth! I have no doubt that Hiruzen was quite a Power Monster especially in Prime,but still he is not so great as some think him to be!





Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Hiruzen even with only Hype is impressive Character,but all he has shown is far from enough to prove his legendary prowess,even in flashbacks and in younger years wasn't shown anything impressive at all,bis best although quite impressive feat is Goton and DB statements,all if which can't suggest he can beat all Three Sannin especially in his Old Version!
> 
> I am well aware of all the hype Hiruzen have and info of him,but without proves hype remain as rumors and speculation,words spreading from mouth to mouth! I have no doubt that Hiruzen was quite a Power Monster especially in Prime,but still he is not so great as some think him to be!


Well obviously without proof this remains as rumours, im well aware of that, i've done extensive research on saru and without kishi's confirmation that the facts given to us are true or not or any episode are given on prime saru we'll never know. On top of that the hype he is presented isn't the same hype minato has (being said stonger than tobirama that just doesn't make sense) it lacks information, with saru on the other hand he doesn't lack the info just the proof. And with that being said that is why the facts given shows saru is superior to all sannin. But wiithout kishi we'll never actaully know. Cheers!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> why even mention prime hiruzen when we have absolutely zero info on him. since this forum is all about feats its pointless bringing him up


We have plenty of information on him just nothing to back up whether it still hokds true or not. Cheers!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> Well obviously without proof this remains as rumours, im well aware of that, i've done extensive research on saru and without kishi's confirmation that the facts given to us are true or not or any episode are given on prime saru we'll never know. On top of that the hype he is presented isn't the same hype minato has (being said stonger than tobirama that just doesn't make sense) it lacks information, with saru on the other hand he doesn't lack the info just the proof. And with that being said that is why the facts given shows saru is superior to all sannin. But wiithout kishi we'll never actaully know. Cheers!


 and also all my information isn't from mouth to mouth, you should know that. I thought you studied saru as well. Anywho these facts come straight from naruto. Cheers!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Old Hiruzen may have a Chance against 1 Sannin but saying that he can take on and win against all 3 Sannin is kinda too much in my opinion!


That was my reply to you saying "we've seen 50 year old sannin, (refering them as old) and saru hasn't done anything that impressive. Im implying there age gap is much farther than you make it to be roughly 17 years apart.....


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 3, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> and also all my information isn't from mouth to mouth, you should know that. I thought you studied saru as well. Anywho these facts come straight from naruto. Cheers!


Lol! What I meant that Hype in Manga and Anime as well as Real World is just Rumors and is just Speculation from mouth to mouth,and without any evident proof or hard facts and feats it remains only that,until it is proven.

Same as Hashirama legendary prowess was considered fairy tail due to the time passed and no one was life to confirm its truth...till everything was backed up with facts and feats!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Lol! What I meant that Hype in Manga and Anime as well as Real World is just Rumors and is just Speculation from mouth to mouth,and without any evident proof or hard facts and feats it remains only that,until it is proven.
> 
> Same as Hashirama legendary prowess was considered fairy tail due to the time passed and no one was life to confirm its truth...till everything was backed up with facts and feats!


Oh Okay you weren't to clear on that, but were on the same page then in terms of hype and speculations. Maybe in the future kishi will show us saru's true greatness.


----------



## Skaddix (Aug 3, 2016)

Move on Hiruzen as "Strongest Kage of his Era" or "Greatest Hokage" got retconned and retconned hard. It happens.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Aug 3, 2016)

prime hiruzen could beat all 3 successively, but not simultaneously, no.

he is also stronger than tobirama & alive minato & any other kage, yes.

he is only weaker than hashirama & madara

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Skaddix (Aug 3, 2016)

No he isn't not on feats he isn't. He cant even hit Minato or Tobirama.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 4, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Move on Hiruzen as "Strongest Kage of his Era" or "Greatest Hokage" got retconned and retconned hard. It happens.


You do realize those are two totally different things. Hurizen Sarutobi was strongest hokage during his reign. But i agree he is no longer the strongest hokage he falls before hashirama


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 4, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> prime hiruzen could beat all 3 successively, but not simultaneously, no.
> 
> he is also stronger than tobirama & alive minato & any other kage, yes.
> 
> he is only weaker than hashirama & madara


Yes he could defeat all three at once, he's  a master of the shadow clone justu and exceeds in weapons compared to sannin by a long shot

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 4, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> Yes he could defeat all three at once, he's  a master of the shadow clone justu and exceeds in weapons compared to sannin by a long shot and to add to that his extensive knowledge of justu and massive chakra reserves he could do it. He's a ninja from another era, man who became hokage at age 18. I still cant believe how blind some seem to be. Cheers!


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 4, 2016)

The Proffessor said:


> Yes he could defeat all three at once, he's  a master of the shadow clone justu and exceeds in weapons compared to sannin by a long shot


With that being said tobirama could also pull it off.


----------



## The Proffessor (Aug 4, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> No he isn't not on feats he isn't. He cant even hit Minato or Tobirama.


That's the most foolish thing i've heard. Every justu has a weakness and sarutobi has less weaknesses to figure out then minato. Tobirama is superior to minato

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Mithos (Aug 4, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Move on Hiruzen as "Strongest Kage of his Era" or "Greatest Hokage" got retconned and retconned hard. It happens.



It's clear that he is no longer the "Strongest Hokage," but there's no evidence that his status as the "Strongest Kage of his Era" has changed.

In fact, it seems to have been reinforced. When he was brought back with the rest of the past Hokage, the Hokage were portrayed as above the rest, and with them he was hyped as "The Biggest of the Big Fish." It wasn't, "Here's the Past Hokage who are all extremely powerful - except for Hiruzen, he's just here." 

At worst, he's _around_ Tsunade/Onoki level in his old age.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 5, 2016)

^His performance against Orochimaru says otherwise.


----------



## 12771a (Aug 5, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> We saw Hiruzen close to his Prime during Kyubi Accident and all he uas done is use Enma...
> 
> Kishi kust trolled Hiruzen beyond reason,and I really wanted to see what Prime Hiruzen is capable of,although I still don't see him as >Tobirama just because he was showing greater Talent than young Tobirama!


The DB said showing more talent than him in nature transformation Jutsu. 
OP: By hype Hiruzen crushes them. By feats he doesn't and loses


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 6, 2016)

Having more Talent than someone and especially in a Specific Are not in all,doesn't make you Stronger than him ,just means you have better potential in that Area but that alone can't guarantee you a win!


----------



## balckPho (Aug 6, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> That's a P1 statement only, it was said in the start of P2 that's Naruto is the only one who can surpass Minato "implying no one ever surpassing him", Raikage also said "no one never surpassed Minato" . It doesn't mean Hashirama or Madara can stomp them even the two of them at once .



16 year old Hiruzen was stated to be >tobirama , who sapuse to be close to faildara and hashirama , so it safe to say he is probably on their tier or above when he was his prime ~20+ 
There is no reason he won't be able to tale all 3 head on, I assume that 3 sanin are >= to gokage


----------



## hbcaptain (Aug 6, 2016)

balckPho said:


> 16 year old Hiruzen was stated to be >tobirama , who sapuse to be close to faildara and hashirama , so it safe to say he is probably on their tier or above when he was his prime ~20+
> There is no reason he won't be able to tale all 3 head on, I assume that 3 sanin are >= to gokage


16 year old Hiruzen was never stated beeing stronger than Tobirama and 20 years Hiruzen is nowhere near his Prime version.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 6, 2016)

He is probably talking about the moment when Hiruzen said he was the best among them ,which obviously means among their Teams,the youngsters...and is later proved by Danzo saying there is no greater Shinobi than Tobirama in Konoha at the time. So yeah there is no way 16 years old Hiruzen to be stronger than Tobirama ,this is ridiculous...

As I said having more Talent in a Specific Area doesn't make you Stronger than someone who has slightly less Talent in that on your Age!


----------



## t0xeus (Aug 6, 2016)

If the manga was supposed to teach us anything, it was that teamwork > individuals, which was theme of the manga since the first chapter and played a huge part even in the last fight, against Kaguya.

And since the gap between each Sannin individually and Hiruzen (going by feats) isn't that huge to begin with, all three of them at once take this fight mid-diff.


----------



## balckPho (Aug 7, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> 16 year old Hiruzen was never stated beeing stronger than Tobirama and 20 years Hiruzen is nowhere near his Prime version.



He was, just before of Tobirama death , he said he should stay fight the cloud silver-gold brothers and their team instead of tobirama as he is the most powerful among the 7 leaf nin present... ( and he was only 16 , later on 16 he was already hokage and "desked"  -so not much grouth is expected there.. just look at desked Naruto..)


----------



## Second Hokage Tobirama (Aug 7, 2016)

balckPho said:


> He was, just before of Tobirama death , he said he should stay fight the cloud silver-gold brothers and their team instead of tobirama as he is the most powerful among the 7 leaf nin present... ( and he was only 16 , later on 16 he was already hokage and "desked"  -so not much grouth is expected there.. just look at desked Naruto..)


I suggest you to read carefully and see things as they are not as you wish them to be! Look at my post which answers yours and think again properly....

Also there is not evidence or anything that Kin or Gin was in that Team!!


----------

