# Kyuubi enhanced Kakashi vs Edo Itachi



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 19, 2013)

Kyuubi enhanced Kakashi vs Edo Itachi

Normally these two shinobi are limited by chakra capacity, now in their latest incarnations not anymore. 

*Distance and location:* as it is here

*Knowledge:* Manga and Kakashi knows about Totsuka.

*State of mind:* In-character with blood lust.​
Who wins?


----------



## Luftwaffles (Mar 19, 2013)

Multiple kamui GG 

KAMUI, KAMUI EVERYWHERE!!!


----------



## joshhookway (Mar 19, 2013)

Kamui gg, gg


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 19, 2013)

Kakashi. With the KN0 shroud, his speed, strength, and power have all increased. And he'd have no limit with his Kamui either. Itachi is sucked into Kamui and has to spend his time in the dimension thinking of games or something.


----------



## Empathy (Mar 19, 2013)

If Kakashi uses the Mangekyou, he wins. If Itachi uses the Mangekyou, he wins. Neither possess nary a counter, I'm afraid. It's the same as the match has always been and somewhat equivalent buffs and upgrades keep the match roughly the same. Although, with substantially more chakra, Kakashi may be more lenient with opting for _Kamui_. He gains greater physical stats in this form, too. However, Itachi has more chakra (unending), greater eyesight, and spammed Mangekyou on par with an Eternal Mangekyou user. In-character showings as well as being natural Uchiha have always lead me to believe Itachi deserves the edge in execution speed and initiative.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 19, 2013)

Empathy said:


> If Kakashi uses the Mangekyou, he wins. If Itachi uses the Mangekyou, he wins. It's the same as it's always been and in-character showings as well as being natural Uchiha has always lead me to believe Itachi deserves the edge in execution speed and initiative.


...so you're seriously believing Kakashi's upgrade from Naruto shouldn't change anything?


----------



## Empathy (Mar 19, 2013)

Afraid not. Not from his showings, at least. I did edit a tad more to elaborate further on my post.


----------



## Bonly (Mar 19, 2013)

Im of the opinion that it comes down to who uses their MS first. I'll just copy and paste my opinon from the last thread.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Sutions to deal with Itachi's Katons and with their being a water source around Kakashi can do his larger scale Sution. Although Itachi can just copy Kakashi Sutions and use it to cancel Kakashi's Sution if Kakashi uses them for offensive. Kakashi also as Dotons such as  and Doryūheki.

Kakashi already knows about Tsukuyomi and had a little bout  without looking into his eyes so Kakashi likely won't fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him and with a sharingan Kakashi would likely break out of any bar Tsukuyomi which he won't fall for. Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi. Kakashi on the otherhand has successfully feinted Itachi(although he was only a 30 percent clone). With Kakashi's increase in speed overtime and him only getting tactically better and already dealing with Itachi's moves, Kakashi can handle base Itachi while in base for the most part and this isn't even mentioning the rest of base Kakashi's arsenal which could help him take out Itachi.

Now comes the part where it becomes a toss up. MS vs MS. Kakashi can deal with one of Itachi's MS jutsu aka Tsukuyomi but Ama on the other hand which as far as we know he doesn't have any knowledge about, would possible get hit on the first time around. Sure Kakashi can counter it by going underground or putting up a Doryūheki to block Itachi's sight to avoid being hit but without knowledge of Ama, I doubt Kakashi would randomly do such. On the flip side Itachi(as far as we know) has no knowledge that Kakashi has Kamui. Itachi hasn't shown the speed to be able to not get hit by it which likely could hit Itachi and be a damaging blow be it taking out a body part like he did against Deidara or be it using Kamui to warp up Itachi entirely like he did with Naruto. So it comes down to who hits who first with their MS jutsu.

When it comes to Susanoo, Kakashi is pretty screwed. He has no ninjutsu that can get past the Yata Mirror nor any jutsu strong enough to break through it. All he has is Kamui which will drain him when he uses it. Likewise Susanoo isn't something Itachi can keep up for long periods of time due to the drain he feels. Itachi was able to quickly cut off alot of Orochi's snake heads and his sword as good reach. Itachi can slice up Kakashi or seal him if Kakashi is pierced. Itachi has Yasaka no Magatama for some range attack but Kakashi could likely dodge it. And while Itachi can do all of this with his Susanoo, he may not be able to successfully do so in a fight depending on his chakra levels.

I feel that this is a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi and Itachi take each other out in one hit before Susanoo is brought out. Itachi would seem to have the advantage when full Susanoo comes into play but Kakashi might be able to outlast Itachi. Either way its a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi has gotten very stronger and is near if not on the same level as Itachi in the general area more or less.




One change that will be effected by this thread is the Susanoo part of my post. Kakashi with the chakra form Kurama was able to Kamui Gyūki and with this version of chakra being stronger I have no doubt that Kakashi should be able to Kamui Itachi. On the other hand Itachi can keep up Susanoo however long he wants as he doesn't have to worry about wasting his chakra and life force as an edo. It should also be noted that Kakashi's only way of winning here is to completely Kamui Itachi or else Itachi regen will kick back in and he'll be fine.


----------



## Puppetry (Mar 19, 2013)

It's difficult to call, but Itachi has the edge. As Empahy said, neither really has a counter to the other's _Mangekyō Sharingan_ techniques, but in this instance, Itachi has more chakra (infinite); non degenerating eyesight (as opposed to the slight damage _Kamui_ will cause to Kakashi's); and precedence (casually slaying the_ Kotoamatsukami_ crow with _Amaterasu_ compared to Kakashi having yet to use _Kamui_ outside of necessity). There are just too many reasons for Itachi to utilize his eyes before Kakashi does.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 19, 2013)

Kakashi just slaughters this one, Itachi's best option here would be to resort to Susano'o immediately and prepare a defense but Kakashi would work around it sorta speak and the boost to his physical strength, speed and technique range would immediately put him in another tier.

inb4niku says kakashi dies from chakra exhaustion.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 19, 2013)

Itachi's sees kakashi's new, and cute chakra ears, and tail and notices the immense chakra difference via sharingan immediatly at the start. He pulls out Ama, and the match ends. Kakashi isn't out executing Itachi in a game of who uses MS more efficiently and quickly. Kakashi's cloak is kind of a warning sign that something is different as well 

At best it's a double knockout


----------



## Turrin (Mar 19, 2013)

Kakashi has better odds, due to a massive knowledge advantage. Itachi may not even know Kakash has MS, while Kakashi has almost full knowledge of Itachi. Also any strength difference between the two normally is more than mitigated by KN buff. So while Itachi could still win with a well placed MS attack, Kakashi will be expecting that, while Itachi will not be expecting Kamui.


----------



## Luftwaffles (Mar 19, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi's sees kakashi's new, and cute chakra ears, and tail and notices the immense chakra difference via sharingan immediatly at the start. He pulls out Ama, and the match ends. Kakashi isn't out executing Itachi in a game of who uses MS more efficiently and quickly. Kakashi's cloak is kind of a warning sign that something is different as well
> 
> At best it's a double knockout


dafuq is Amaterasu going to cause Kakashi IN a Kyuubi shroud?


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 19, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> dafuq is Amaterasu going to cause Kakashi IN a Kyuubi shroud?



I didn't know Kyuubi shroud had fuinjutsu to seal off Amaterasu. That's crazy, mind showing me a link to that panel?

Edit: I didn't see that this was Ic with bloodlust, I thought it was just bloodlusted.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 19, 2013)

Amaterasu is overrated, Raikiri has a greater kill count.


----------



## eyeknockout (Mar 19, 2013)

kakashi would have to either teleport itachi face/eyes or his entire body if he wants to win because anything short of that and itachi can counter with his own MS technique and regen which also leaves and opening for izanami. but if kakashi aims for itachi's face/eyes he will get stuck in tsukiyomi or an amaterasu to the face  since he'll be looking in itachi's eyes.

so itachi still wins


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kakashi. With the KN0 shroud, his speed, strength, and power have all increased. And he'd have no limit with his Kamui either. Itachi is sucked into Kamui and has to spend his time in the dimension thinking of games or something.



Or Itachi reverse-Kuchiyoses himself back to Crow Island or wherever the hell, then hunts Kakashi down later and strangles him to death in a cheap motel like a Vietnamese prostitute.

Initially, though, Kakashi can win this round by warping Itachi away, as you said. Other potential outcomes include, but are not limited to:

1. Itachi mindfucking Kakashi into the ground with Tsukuyomi first.

2. Itachi pulling off a clone feint before Kamui sucks him in and turning the fight into a "who hits the real one first" stand-off.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Mar 20, 2013)

Kakashi, no difficulty.

He warps 300 square meters surrounding Itachi- allowing no escape. 

Amy is warped off his body if it's used by Itachi.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 20, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Amaterasu is overrated, Raikiri has a greater kill count.



Sasuke defeated the Hachibi with Amaterasu.

Also, Amaterasu was so OP it had to be nerfed in part 2.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Mar 20, 2013)

Kamui gg.

Edo's need sealing (kamui) and bloodlust means trump cards.

Kamui has faster execution speed that Ameterasu.  Nagato could see the chakra build up in Itachi's MS when he was using a jutsu.

No one saw crap when Kakashi warped the friggen Hachibi.  

Also, Kakashi can escape Ameterasu the same way Tobi probably did.  Kamuing away the flames, or, Kamui'ing away himself and leaving the flames behind.  So even if they double shot Kakashi wins.


----------



## tanman (Mar 20, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...so you're seriously believing Kakashi's upgrade from Naruto shouldn't change anything?



You should read his post again.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 20, 2013)

Kamui has the speed and AOE to give Kakashi the win.


----------



## Ernie (Mar 20, 2013)

Difficult one. 

I think 'Kyuubi' Kakashi.


----------



## narutoish (Mar 20, 2013)

i don't see kakashi winning this. the problem is that itachi is edo - has infinite stamina and regenerating body; all he has to do is make sure he doesn't get hit with kamui, and he can do that by making clones - thus negating kamui. kakashi would stop using kamui on clones when he sees its  a waste, and then all itachi has to do is finish him off with tsukuyomi, amertersu or tostuka.


----------



## MS81 (Mar 20, 2013)

Kakashi takes this with mid difficulty!!!

I read a lot of people's comments and I have to say you guys forgot that Kakashi has Kyuubi shroud and basically can do most of Naruto's jutsus.

Tajuu Kage bushin and Rasengan,chorasengan, and most importantly can probably do Raiton Rasengan now!!!


----------



## narutoish (Mar 20, 2013)

MS81 said:


> Kakashi takes this with mid difficulty!!!
> 
> I read a lot of people's comments and I have to say you guys forgot that Kakashi has Kyuubi shroud and basically can do most of Naruto's jutsus.
> 
> Tajuu Kage bushin and Rasengan,chorasengan, and most importantly can probably do Raiton Rasengan now!!!



having someone's chakra lets you do their jutsus?

either way kakashi loses this since itachi is edo.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 21, 2013)

edo means jack shit to kamui.. 

anyway kakashi has better reaction feats. and he's now boosted by kyuubi chakra .. 

fun when fights between uchiha's don't care at all about any fighting prowess and only about the speed of their reactions


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Wasn't Kakashi with Kyubi chakra warping the Hachibi? It doesn't matter if Itachi puts up Susano'o, Kakashi warps it along with Itachi.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 21, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Wasn't Kakashi with Kyubi chakra warping the Hachibi? It doesn't matter if Itachi puts up Susano'o, Kakashi warps it along with Itachi.



Pretty much this.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> . . . only to realize it was a clone. this is too easy, come on



Since when can Itachi clones use Susano'o?


----------



## Ghost (Mar 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> anyway kakashi has better reaction feats.



start posting scans because Sasuke could react to V1 A and Itachi was shown to have even better reactions.


----------



## Ghost (Mar 21, 2013)

Pirao said:


> Since when can Itachi clones use Susano'o?



Since then when KB's were shown to use the jutsus of the original.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2013)

With the Kyuubi buff Kakashi could win this. His speed,strength, reaction speed and stamina would be well above Itachi's. 
However, there is still a huge dillema for Kakashi here. 
With his buffs, he can perhaps react to Amaterasu but in order to do that, he needs to watch out Itachi's eyes. Which leaves him vulnerable to Tsukiyomi GG. 
And if he doesn't watch out for Amaterasu, he gets hit by it and dies.

Sure he has the stamina to warp Susano'o, or the speed to out run it for a while but in this match up, Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu are the biggest threats and Kyuubi buff doesn't give him an effective way of dealing with those 2.

I say Itachi'd win more often than not.



Stermor said:


> edo means jack shit to kamui..



Yeah, Itachi can just get himself reverse summoned via crows ^^




> anyway kakashi has better reaction feats.



Cute troll attempt.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> . . . only to realize it was a clone. this is too easy, come on
> 
> 
> since people like to claim Kamui activates faster than what Itachi can handle, they need to properly reevaluate their stance as Itachis jutsu execution speed is second to none. if anything the arguments supposed to be with the forma mentis of Kakashi keeping up with Itachi before he gets OHKO'd not the opposite actually, but fandoms gotta fandom i guess
> ...



the thing is itachi best reactions are not getting killed by kcm naruto.. this is the best feat reaction speed feat he has.

kakashi best feat is doing some thing so fast obito couldn't register it.. and obito could register bm (a faster naruto)

that is all there is to it.. kakashi has better reaction feats.. kakashi wins..

this is literly a match that end in the blink of an eye.. and kakashi can do it faster


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Saikyou said:


> Since then when KB's were shown to use the jutsus of the original.



Naruto's KBs can't go full BM (Kurama form) even though the original can. I'll ask again, where's your evidence that Itachi can use Susano'o with a clone?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 21, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Also, Kakashi can escape Ameterasu the same way Tobi probably did.  Kamuing away the flames, or, Kamui'ing away himself and leaving the flames behind.  So even if they double shot Kakashi wins.



Kakashi doesn't have izanagi.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> since you apparently lack any shred of reading comprehension skills i'll summarize and break down in laymans the core concept of my previous post
> 
> a)Itachi's justus execution speed is second to none. Fact
> b)Itachi''s bunshin feint are executed faster than what Kabuto and Sasuke could perceive, thus justifying in this battle a scenario where he can pull a clone faster than a less skilled sharingan user( Kakashi in regards to Sasuke) who also lacks broken sensory abilities like Kabuto
> ...



Why haven't you answered the question? Don't go on a tangent.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> since you apparently lack any shred of reading comprehension skills i'll summarize and break down in laymans the core concept of my previous post
> 
> a)Itachi's justus execution speed is second to none. Fact


where do you get that fact?? 



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> b)Itachi''s bunshin feint are executed faster than what Kabuto and Sasuke could perceive, thus justifying in this battle a scenario where he can pull a clone faster than a less skilled sharingan user( Kakashi in regards to Sasuke) who also lacks broken sensory abilities like Kabuto. Fact



neither have the speed or reactions greater then naruto.. it is a lesser feat.. 



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> c)It's Kakashi who actually needs to keep up with Itachi not the other way round. Fact



why? how do you get that? the feats are pretty clear, kakashi has better reactions speed atm.. 



Miyamoto Musashi said:


> d)Hard evidence suggests my stance down to the last word. If you think otherwise you're just kidding yourself, and need to provide scans or mention the evidence with words. and by words i mean shit that happened in the manga not your subjective opinion



you are kidding yourself.. kakashi did something that a character with better reaction speed while focusing couldn't detect.. itachi doesn't have feats as good. point is clear kakashi has better reactions therefor wins..


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 21, 2013)

regular kakashi vs living itachi is a more balanced matchup. there really is no need to go beyond the "kamui gg" scenario since this match is rather one sided towards kakashi.

as others have already noted, this version of kakashi is capable of warping itachi along with his susano. we know that kakashi was capable of warping the hachibi and spitting it out at high-speeds; however, this time the kyuubi's *chakra and power* were stated to be a *lot stronge*r than before.

 we've already witnessed the ridiculous feats rock lee and ino were capable of achieving with the aid of the kyuubi's chakra. kakashi has already demonstrated that he is capable of warping his entire body (in an exhausted state mind you), so warping body parts shouldn't be too difficult.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> @ pirao guy because the other guy already did goddamnit. kage bunshin carry the properties of the original, so where chakra is not a problem like in this case, clones happen with Susano'o. Period



It's a good thing I already adressed that, then 



Pirao said:


> Naruto's KBs can't go full BM (Kurama form) even though the original can. I'll ask again, where's your evidence that Itachi can use Susano'o with a clone?





> get your facts straight for starters and it does not even matter because i didn't mention itachi would use susano-o, you actually took the liberty to add that yourself



But I did, in the post you quoted. If you quote something you have to respond to what is actually being quoted, not ignore what you want.



> unsightly



-snip-



> *edit*: this is going to be circular and i don't have the time  nor the patience for your kind, not anymore since i can't even neg, so i'll just have to stop posting from here one



Bye bye.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> @ pirao guy because the other guy already did goddamnit. kage bunshin carry the properties of the original, so where chakra is not a problem like in this case, clones happen with Susano'o. Period
> 
> get your facts straight for starters and it does not even matter because i didn't mention itachi would use susano-o, you actually took the liberty to add that yourself
> 
> ...



-snip-

obito didn't see naruto get kamuied.. you remember this right?? obito himself was able to see bm naruto move and stuff.. you know the faster version of kcm naruto.. kcm naruto himself was casually competing with itachi.. 

obito himself also pulled sasuke out plenty of spots where he would have died.. against onoki or danzo for instance.. Obito has way better reactions then sasuke.. so not really seeing why you are so stuck up on kakashi beeing weaker then sasuke.. while nothing indicates that in the slightest.. 

and lol part 1 kakashi was much weaker then he is now..  putting any stock in that is plain stupid.. 

anyway obito has better reactions then itachi.. obito couldn't follow kamui, while beeing focussed on it.. kakashi has better reactions then itachi.. 

not really seeing what it so hard to get here..


----------



## Vergil642 (Mar 21, 2013)

Comes down to who uses MS first. With Kurama's enhancement Kakashi can warp Itachi's entire body no problem, but Itachi can Amaterasu Kakashi to ash just as easily and quickly. Tsukuyomi would work too but ultimately it doesn't really push things in Itachi's favour as the requirements to use it are more difficult than Amaterasu.


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> by address i hope you don't mean commit the association fallacy
> 
> Naruto is a special case of his own. I don't even care nor it matters in this argument. What matters is Itachi and if theoretically he uses a clone, the clone can use susano-o because as i already mentioned they carry the properties of the original( Itachi doesn't have a demon in him, he's not naruto) and chakra is not a problem.



KB divides chakra. We've already seen that a 30% chakra Itachi can't use MS techniques. But suddenly an Itachi clone can use Susano'o because you say so... how about no.

Unless you provide evidence (which you can't) .



> *It's rather you need to provide who needs to provide evidence that contradicts the status quo supported by manga showcasings and databook entries.* It's as if I ask you to show me evidence of Itachi using hand seals to make clones in the kabuto fight. Point in case is even if he didn't directly show the hand seals, we're sure he did, or was too fast for the others to notice when he was doing them, but he ultimately did( this just an example to highlight the glaring flaw in your line of reasoning)



I already did.



> Tough i digress, why do you keep beating on this dead horse? Does it really matter, when i didn't even give a flying fuck about susano-o as in this match up, it boils down to who can snipe the other quicker( read my post to your buddy stermor, and address that since it's relevant to the outcome of the match up)



If you didn't give a flying fuck you shouldn't start quoting a post about that. Stermor is already addressing it, why would I repeat what he's saying?



> no i'll have to actually stick here since i need to boost my post count and get myself that nice final villain custom title, since i can't temporarily get rep, that will be my new benchmark



Sure, do what you want. Good way to show your incoherence though


----------



## Pirao (Mar 21, 2013)

Miyamoto Musashi said:


> i fucking love that you ignored the example of the clones i used in this same post you quoted
> 
> but i'll repost it so you can see



I didn't ignore anything.




> why did you not address that? as no one in his right mind would demand evidence that shows Itachi using hand seals to make clones, because it's the stats quo.
> 
> but oh well you learn new things every day, as you're asking to me provide evidence of something that is self evident. how hilarious, but in every conceivable and pathetic way tough
> 
> then let me tell you why you're wrong again. Itachi can use his crow clones, which require less chakra than a regular kage bunshin so chakra is not a problem, then with the edo tensei his chakra reserve his been continually replenished as he's an immortal zombie on auto regen, so (chakra is not a problem)^2



Chakra is a problem. When Muu divided he stated that he couldn't use Jinton. I'm still waiting for you to provide evidence that Itachi clone can use Susano'o, while you keep dodging the question and going on tangents.



> it's even mathematical son lol
> 
> so i repeat provide evidence that contradicts the status quo, and tell me why i should believe he can't use susano'o when he makes a clone
> 
> ...



I already did, you ignoring said evidence doesn't invalidate it.

Your pathetic attempts at baiting are hilarious to watch though.



> yeah by ignoring the fact that as edo tensei chakra is not a problem
> 
> pathetic



Muu says hi.



> hmm no
> 
> i'm was originally addressing the notion of kakashi winning this with the ease many are claiming



Great, and I was adressing the argument that said Susano'o takes care of Kamui (apart from the obvious notion that an area of effect as big as the Hachibi will be a bitch to dodge). WTF did you quote my post for again?



> it's rich that someone with shit rep like you is telling me about coherence when you clearly don't know who i am, nor my posts contradict each other in the first place
> 
> but carry on, keep ridiculing yourself more



-snip-


----------



## narutoish (Mar 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> edo means jack shit to kamui..



what about clones?



> anyway kakashi has better reaction feats. and he's now boosted by kyuubi chakra ..



 come back when kakashi can go taijutsu against the likes of naruto and bee at the same time.




Santoryu said:


> regular kakashi vs living itachi is a more balanced matchup. there really is no need to go beyond the "kamui gg" scenario since this match is rather one sided towards kakashi.



you may be forgetting that itachi is also edo.



> as others have already noted, this version of kakashi is capable of warping itachi along with his susano. we know that kakashi was capable of warping the hachibi and spitting it out at high-speeds; however, this time the kyuubi's *chakra and power* were stated to be a *lot stronge*r than before.



the problem is that itachi still has the better end of the deal, he has infinite chakra and a regenerating body, all he has to do is to make clones to keep kakashi busy since he will be running out of chakra first; and we already know itachi can make clones faster then sharingan can see.



> we've already witnessed the ridiculous feats rock lee and ino were capable of achieving with the aid of the kyuubi's chakra. kakashi has already demonstrated that he is capable of warping his entire body (in an exhausted state mind you), so warping body parts shouldn't be too difficult.



the problem is that itachi has superb reactions, and more MS abilities - thus giving him various ways of attacking. itachi can use amertersu, tsukuyomi or tostuka, while kakashi can only use kamui


----------



## narutoish (Mar 21, 2013)

Stermor said:


> clones are not really an issue as far as i'm concerned.. this match will be decided in a split second.. either itachi kill kakashi with amaterasu or kakashi kamui's itachi..



I don't think that kakashi will resort to kamui right off the bat.



> also kakashi can react to them.. he can keep up. but beating them requires more then that.. not to say kcm or bee ever went all out against itachi.. kcm was happily off talking to itachi rather then trying to destroy him..



kakashi might be able to keep up with itachi but he will never know what he is about to kamui is a clone or real itachi.



> personally i go for kakashi since obito couldn't follow kakashi's kamui.. and obito has reacted to faster people then itachi..



well that's kamui's speed, not kakashi's. there is nothing that says that kakashi could've kept up with bee and naruto; also obito was hit with amertersu and couldn't react until he was burning.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 21, 2013)

narutoish said:


> I don't think that kakashi will resort to kamui right off the bat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



they should with bloodlust and manga knowlegde.. both should go straight for the instant attacks.. 

if need be kakashi can kamui a pretty big area to be save.. also kakashi is no slouch in kage bunshin feints and has the kyuubi chakra to create several..  but again i don't think this would really be the case..

kamui is pretty much all reaction speed.. speed of his physical body seems to be pretty good considering he kept up with gated gai i doubt it is much less the itachi at this point.. but reaction speed is the kicker here.. kamui and amaterasu both use reaction speed.. 

and kakashi did kinda keep up with bee and gai and naruto(all fighting obito).. so not really seeing why he can't keep up.. again not stating he could beat any of them in cqc though.. 

as for him getting hit by amaterasu i see that as the same thing as sm jiriaya arm getting ripped off.. letting your guard down(aka pis)..


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 22, 2013)

Bloodlust Kakashi w/o Kyuubi powers solos as he sends half of Itachi to the other side just for kicks, this match is far too one-sided.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Bloodlust Kakashi w/o Kyuubi powers solos as he sends half of Itachi to the other side just for kicks, this match is far too one-sided.



It applies to both of them so regardless of the buffs, it comes down to who uses MS first.
Given Itachi has faster reaction speed and Amaterasu has faster initiation speed, Kakashi dies horribly without being able to do anything.

As for this match up, Itachi is edo Itachi so he'll just regenerate even if Kakashi manages to Kamui his body parts, though with bloodlust it is not happening.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It applies to both of them so regardless of the buffs, it comes down to who uses MS first.
> Given Itachi has faster reaction speed and Amaterasu has faster initiation speed, Kakashi dies horribly without being able to do anything.
> 
> As for this match up, Itachi is edo Itachi so he'll just regenerate even if Kakashi manages to Kamui his body parts, though with bloodlust it is not happening.



what do you base itachi faster reaction speed and amaterasu's initiation speed on?? obito not beeing able to see naruto getting kamuied pretty much trumps any reaction feat itachi has..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2013)

Stermor said:


> what do you base itachi faster reaction speed and amaterasu's initiation speed on?? obito not beeing able to see naruto getting kamuied pretty much trumps any reaction feat itachi has..





Pass the dope brah.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 22, 2013)

How is this not kamui GG?

With what's suppose to be the equivalent of KN0, kakashi can warp Gyuuki.  He gets the cloak in this thread, and thus uses a 50 meter diameter kamui that doesn't even have to be aimed remotely close to itachi in order to suck him in.

Of course itachi will not be sealed by that, but he'll be trapped in the kamui dimension unless he can yell as loud as Gotenks.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It applies to both of them so regardless of the buffs, it comes down to who uses MS first.
> Given Itachi has faster reaction speed and Amaterasu has faster initiation speed, Kakashi dies horribly without being able to do anything.


Are you telling me Itachi's reaction speed has any relevance here given the enhancement Kakashi has ITT?


----------



## Stermor (Mar 22, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pass the dope brah.



i'm really interested.. please explain.. i might give you some of my dope if you can convince me..


----------



## narutoish (Mar 22, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> How is this not kamui GG?
> 
> With what's suppose to be the equivalent of KN0, kakashi can warp Gyuuki.  He gets the cloak in this thread, and thus uses a 50 meter diameter kamui that doesn't even have to be aimed remotely close to itachi in order to suck him in.
> 
> Of course itachi will not be sealed by that, but he'll be trapped in the kamui dimension unless he can yell as loud as Gotenks.



how do you think he will react when he finds out it was a clone?

seriously, amertersu and kamui are both finishers and can end the fight pretty quickly, hoever, itachi has more chakra and edo body, not to mention better and more versatile MS jutsus, so that's why he wins more times then not.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 22, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Are you telling me Itachi's reaction speed has any relevance here given the enhancement Kakashi has ITT?



Well he claimed that Kyuubi buff wasn't necessary to Kamui GG Itachi with bloodlust. Which isn't happening given Itachi is bloodlusted also.



Stermor said:


> i'm really interested.. please explain.. i might give you some of my dope if you can convince me..



Explain what ? I just want the dope your using because it obviously makes your imagination go wild.


----------



## ueharakk (Mar 23, 2013)

narutoish said:


> how do you think he will react when he finds out it was a clone?


Itachi isn't going to have the time to both make a clone and separate himself 50 meters from that clone before Kakashi unleashes his giant kamui.



narutoish said:


> seriously, amertersu and kamui are both finishers and can end the fight pretty quickly, hoever, itachi has more chakra and edo body, not to mention better and more versatile MS jutsus, so that's why he wins more times then not.


Kamui has a faster activation time and unlike Itachi who has to focus on his target to amaterasu, KAkashi's boosted kamui range is so huge, he doesn't have to pinpoint itachi in order to kamui him which makes the process way quicker.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well he claimed that Kyuubi buff wasn't necessary to Kamui GG Itachi with bloodlust. Which isn't happening given Itachi is bloodlusted also.
> 
> 
> 
> Explain what ? I just want the dope your using because it obviously makes your imagination go wild.



i want you to give me a clear cut feat that itachi is capable of using attacks faster then kakashi can use kamui.. 

if you can provide that i can believe itachi can win.. but as far as i know nothing itachi has done has been as fast as kakashi used kamui on naruto..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 23, 2013)

Stermor said:


> i want you to give me a clear cut feat that itachi is capable of using attacks faster then kakashi can use kamui..
> 
> if you can provide that i can believe itachi can win.. but as far as i know nothing itachi has done has been as fast as kakashi used kamui on naruto..



That kamui trick was purely circumstantial. Tobi was pre occupied with Naruto and his vision was blocked by the stake so he clearly didn'T see what happened. 

Amaterasu by mechanics is faster than Kamui. Amaterasu appears and its over.
Kamui appears and then warps. Thats a two step process.

As for speed, Kakashi lacks feats on Itachi's caliber.
Though with the Kyuubi buff this scenario grants him, he might trump Itachi in those areas.


----------



## Vice (Mar 23, 2013)

Pretty sure Naruto's faster than Itachi and Hachibi's bigger than Susanoo.


----------



## Hasan (Mar 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That kamui trick was purely circumstantial. Tobi was pre occupied with Naruto and his vision was blocked by the stake so he clearly didn'T see what happened.



No such implication was made; Obito was specifically looking out for the Kamui that Kakashi was attempting to use, even calling him out for having failed. Obito couldn't keep up with him...


----------



## Stermor (Mar 23, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That kamui trick was purely circumstantial. Tobi was pre occupied with Naruto and his vision was blocked by the stake so he clearly didn'T see what happened.
> 
> Amaterasu by mechanics is faster than Kamui. Amaterasu appears and its over.
> Kamui appears and then warps. Thats a two step process.
> ...



why? statements made it pretty clear even while watching for it obito couldn't detect it.. 

amaterasu has been shown to have travel time.. with sasuke versus itachi for instance.. not really seeing why it would be faster.. and it doesn't really matter at best it makes the feat from kakashi even more impressive. 

kakashi was fighting just as well with bee, naruto, gai and obito.. hell you can even say bee and naruto were fighting better(faster) then against itachi since they had killing intent there where as they didn't have it against itachi..  

for both those fights are what gives them their best speed feats.. though in cqc itachi had a more impressive showing against bee then kakashi against obito.. but that is more the attacks he used and how then anything speed/reaction based..


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 23, 2013)

Stermor said:


> amaterasu has been shown to have travel time.. with sasuke versus itachi for instance.. not really seeing why it would be faster.. and it doesn't really matter at best it makes the feat from kakashi even more impressive.



The travel time is similar to Kamui. It is relative to how fast the user can focus on the target. Though granted Kakashi has shown that it is easier to focus with Kamui. As Sasuke shows, after focus you need to visualise the flames- yet with Kakashi he's shown you just need to focus and the magic starts.

Amaterasu requires extra focus for the flames to have the incineration effect as illustrated by Sasuke and Itachi. However as Kakashi has shown, more focus just means a stronger pull akin to Banshou Tenin.

In short: you're right in saying it is faster to execute Kamui. Reaction doesn't apply here because this is a matter of which jutsu is faster to deploy.

It is worth noting that Obito could anticipate and follow Amaterasu while it was being cast yet was surprised Kakashi cast Kamui so quickly.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 23, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The travel time is similar to Kamui. It is relative to how fast the user can focus on the target. Though granted Kakashi has shown that it is easier to focus with Kamui. As Sasuke shows, after focus you need to visualise the flames- yet with Kakashi he's shown you just need to focus and the magic starts.
> 
> Amaterasu requires extra focus for the flames to have the incineration effect as illustrated by Sasuke and Itachi. However as Kakashi has shown, more focus just means a stronger pull akin to Banshou Tenin.
> 
> ...



yep i agree.. 

i equalize reaction speed with the focus of eyes. for 99% of the cases this should be pretty much equal. especially for shinobi's using the sharingan..


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 23, 2013)

The stake clearly didn't block any vision.


As for which is faster, ama has never been activated before being used, everytime it's prepped. While Kamui can be used almost instantly.


----------



## ImSerious (Mar 23, 2013)

Kakashi shunshin blitzes Itachi.

Unless of course you think base Lee is faster than Kakashi or Itachi has higher reflexes than Madara.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That kamui trick was purely circumstantial. Tobi was pre occupied with Naruto and his vision was blocked by the stake so he clearly didn'T see what happened.
> 
> Amaterasu by mechanics is faster than Kamui. Amaterasu appears and its over.
> Kamui appears and then warps. Thats a two step process.
> ...


Amaterasu always has a tell tale sign though, observant shinobi could dodge it but neither Kakashi nor Obito have ever had a tell like that.

Dat Kyuubi Kakashi


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2013)

Stermor said:


> why? statements made it pretty clear even while watching for it obito couldn't detect it..
> 
> amaterasu has been shown to have travel time.. with sasuke versus itachi for instance.. not really seeing why it would be faster.. and it doesn't really matter at best it makes the feat from kakashi even more impressive.
> 
> ...





Hasan said:


> No such implication was made; Obito was specifically looking out for the Kamui that Kakashi was attempting to use, even calling him out for having failed. Obito couldn't keep up with him...



Then why did Kakashi say "I have to get timing right" and waited for that exact moment to warp Naruto's clone, made Tobi think as if the stake took him out ?
It was a deception. 

If Kakashi could kamui things faster than Tobi could percieve, they wouldn't need to set up a feint like that. 

Amaterasu doesn't have a travel time. And the mechanics of the jutsu is faster. Amaterasu appears and starts burning. Kamui appears and then starts to suck things in. Difference is the moment Amaterasu appears on Kakashi he starts feeling pain and thus he won't be able to keep Kamui going. With the assumption that they use it @ the exact same moment, Kakashi will always lose.





Ryuzaki said:


> Amaterasu always has a tell tale sign though, observant shinobi could dodge it but neither Kakashi nor Obito have ever had a tell like that.
> 
> Dat Kyuubi Kakashi



Yes, they have to observe the eyes "Tsukiyomi GG."


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

Was Kakashi certain that Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on him a second time?


----------



## IchLiebe (Mar 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why did Kakashi say "I have to get timing right" and waited for that exact moment to warp Naruto's clone, made Tobi think as if the stake took him out ?
> It was a deception.
> 
> If Kakashi could kamui things faster than Tobi could percieve, they wouldn't need to set up a feint like that.



The stake didn't block his vision as showed in my post above. Just because they tricked him doesn't mean he couldn't perceive it. The stake didn't block any vision and Tobi still couldn't percieve that Naruto was warped. That means Kakashi did it so fast Tobi couldn't tell what happened.



> Amaterasu doesn't have a travel time. And the mechanics of the jutsu is faster. Amaterasu appears and starts burning. Kamui appears and then starts to suck things in. Difference is the moment Amaterasu appears on Kakashi he starts feeling pain and thus he won't be able to keep Kamui going. With the assumption that they use it @ the exact same moment, Kakashi will always lose.




Ama has to have prep. Everytime it's used it's shown eye closing, pressure building, then ama. Kamui has shown to just instant warp whatever without prep which means Kakashi wins.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why did Kakashi say "I have to get timing right" and waited for that exact moment to warp Naruto's clone, made Tobi think as if the stake took him out ?
> It was a deception.
> 
> If Kakashi could kamui things faster than Tobi could percieve, they wouldn't need to set up a feint like that.



he doesn't really need a feint to kamui stuff faster then tobi can detect.. he needed the feint so that naruto could damage obito.... 

that is why timing was important.. not really because kamui was to slow.. but because naruto might not be close enough and obito could maybe dogde.. 

anyway kamui is faster  then obito can detect.. amaterasu doesn't have the same feats. it seems pretty clear to me..


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> The stake didn't block his vision as showed in my post above. Just because they tricked him doesn't mean he couldn't perceive it. The stake didn't block any vision and Tobi still couldn't percieve that Naruto was warped. That means Kakashi did it so fast Tobi couldn't tell what happened.


Kakashi started warping the rasengan and tobi thought it would be the only thing that was being warped. So he sent a stake instead, and then thought the stake dispersed the bunshin.

This in no way shows that Kakashi can use Kamui faster than Tobi can react. He shows that he can do so through out a feint.



> Ama has to have prep. Everytime it's used it's shown eye closing, pressure building, then ama. Kamui has shown to just instant warp whatever without prep which means Kakashi wins.



Well Kakash has to remove the headband protector to uncover his eye, so it evens out.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Was Kakashi certain that Tsukuyomi wouldn't work on him a second time?



Dunno. He thought avoiding eye contact would solve the problem. Itachi forced eye contact afterwards.

Though if he needs to watch for Amaterasu he needs to look @ Itachi's eyes.



Stermor said:


> he doesn't really need a feint to kamui stuff faster then tobi can detect.. he needed the feint so that naruto could damage obito....
> 
> that is why timing was important.. not really because kamui was to slow.. but because naruto might not be close enough and obito could maybe dogde..


Not really. 

IF it was the case, then Kakashi wouldn't need to feint by starting to warp the rasengan. 
He'd just warp Naruto a whole because Tobi wouldn't be able to detect it right ? 



> anyway kamui is faster  then obito can detect.. amaterasu doesn't have the same feats. it seems pretty clear to me..



Kamui isn't.

Amaterasu is : wouldn't work


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

> Dunno. He thought avoiding eye contact would solve the problem. Itachi forced eye contact afterwards.
> 
> Though if he needs to watch for Amaterasu he needs to look @ Itachi's eyes.



He forced eye contact by playing into Kakashi's Bunshin trick. That supports Kakashi's idea.

Apparently not seeing as _despite_ knowing about Amaterasu, Itachi still advises people to not look into his eyes.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He forced eye contact by playing into Kakashi's Bunshin trick. That supports Kakashi's idea.


Kakashi's idea was not to get his bunshin caught by a genjutsu.
He needed to stall or grab Itachi till Naruto arrived.
Kakashi's surprise clearly shows that he wasn't expecting that manuever from Itachi.

Besides, If Kakashi thought he could handle Itachi's genjutsu, let alone Tsukiyomi, he wouldn't avoid eye contact.




> Apparently not seeing as _despite_ knowing about Amaterasu, Itachi still advises people to not look into his eyes.



Apparently he thinks Tsukiyomi is a worse way to die than Amaterasu


Joking aside, he didn't have MS active @ the time. So casting 
Amaterasu was out of the question.

But this again shows how broken Itachi is.
You avoid the eyes, you can't anticipate Amaterasu unless you are a sensor.
You don't avoid the eyes, then its Tsukiyomi GG, unless you are an Uchiha.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi started warping the rasengan and tobi thought it would be the only thing that was being warped. So he sent a stake instead, and then thought the stake dispersed the bunshin.
> 
> This in no way shows that Kakashi can use Kamui faster than Tobi can react. He shows that he can do so through out a feint.
> 
> ...



you do kinda say it yourself.. obito wasn't able to see kamui because he thought it was a bunshin popping.. if it was slower he would have noticed.. and he was actually watching for it .. so you can't say he didn't think about it.. he just physically wasn't able to see it.. nothing else matters.. 

end result is still the same kamui is faster then obito can detect.. you just cannot get arround that.

kamui has better feats therefor wins..

and no just kamui naruto into the dimension will not really work since obito can just w=phase out there and then naruto is fucked.. they needed the suprise and attack on both sized at the same time.. that is what the hole feint was about..


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 25, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kakashi's idea was not to get his bunshin caught by a genjutsu.
> He needed to stall or grab Itachi till Naruto arrived.
> Kakashi's surprise clearly shows that he wasn't expecting that manuever from Itachi.
> 
> Besides, If Kakashi thought he could handle Itachi's genjutsu, let alone Tsukiyomi, he wouldn't avoid eye contact.



He needed to stall, that's all. However it shows he is capable of tricking Itachi. You cite a surprise which is meaningless because Kakashi already accounted for that possibility. How? Well a clone was what Itachi was having a scuffle with, not the real guy.

Who said he could handle it? I just said Kakashi said the same jutsu (perhaps tactic) wouldn't work on him a second time. That is exactly what happened, Itachi tried Genjutsu and it didn't work. In fact he needed to get up close and personal to land Genjutsu, which says a lot.



> Joking aside, he didn't have MS active @ the time. So casting
> Amaterasu was out of the question.
> 
> But this again shows how broken Itachi is.
> ...



Itachi doesn't agree. If there really was a bad Catch-22, then Itachi wouldn't advise Bee to avoid eye contact *knowing* about Amaterasu. 
Avoiding eye contact is enough to fight the guy adequately as Itachi himself said. In fact Naruto illustrated it too seeing as Naruto wasn't caught in Genjutsu yet again.

Kakashi who knows that tactic is more than qualified to fight Itachi without looking at his eyes. With the boost he has in this thread, even more so. Itachi even said Kakashi is skilled to the point where Itachi doesn't realise what would hit him till the last minute; a Raiton: Kage Bunshin may get the job done. I say that as it sets Itachi up nicely for a Kamui. 
Kamui, with a lesser boost than I gave him, enabled Kakashi to warp Gyuuki whose doubtlessly larger than Susanoo.


----------



## Orochimaru800 (Mar 25, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kamui, with a lesser boost than I gave him, enabled Kakashi to warp Gyuuki whose doubtlessly larger than Susanoo.


Well then you practically got your answer to the topic, MUNBOY. So Kakashi with Kyuubi enhanced chakra warps Itachi. Itachi is fucking done.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Mar 26, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, they have to observe the eyes "Tsukiyomi GG."


You son of- well he could sense the pressure around him, Sasuke was able to do so and he's not a sensor shinobi either


----------



## Seon (Mar 26, 2013)

Itachi takes it. Even Kyuubi enhanced. Kakashi can't handle Itachi.


----------

