# Kakashi vs. Itachi



## Kai (Mar 24, 2018)

The classic fight after a while. MS Kakashi (Fourth War) vs. Itachi.

Setting: Uchiha Shrine
Knowledge: Full
Distance: 10 meters
IC


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## Kisame (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi's always been Kakashi's superior. Even Kamui GG wouldn't change that here.

Kakashi doesn't have any tools to defend against Amaterasu so for all intents and purposes Amaterasu = Kamui here.

Itachi also can Tsukiyomi Kakashi in CQC and without Naruto, Chiyo and Sakura there is no one else but Kakashi to be the target of Itachi's genjutsu and Kakashi won't have back-up to increase his chances of landing a successful bunshin feint.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi handseal speed is so fast that Sasuke with two Sharingan's couldn't even see him make the handseal to make a clone right in front of him so with speed like that along with shadow clones,exploding clones,crow clones, Katons, genjutsu, ect. it can help in creating opening which can give Itachi a few good shots in while on the otherhand Kakashi's a pretty good clone user himself and he has multiple good finishing moves with his Raiton along with some counters to Itachi's base arsenal so while close I tend to slightly favor Itachi when it comes to their base but that when things turn to Itachi's favor. 

Susanoo pretty much walls almost(if not everything) Kakashi can dish out while also being able to dish out damage that's gonna either end Kakashi(which he won't use here since he's trying to catch Kakashi) or hurt him badly which can be done with Susanoo's physical strength and attacks. Now when you add in Ama and Tsu and Kakashi's chances aren't looking to good as Itachi can hit Kakashi with either of those two but not kill him while also knocking him out. Kamui isn't enough to alone to beat Itachi when he's fighting an uphill battle throughout the fight, Itachi got this in the bag more times then not imo but as always for Kakashi, Kamui or bust.


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

13 Itachi related post in the first page itself..Whats going on?? 

OT: 


Shark said:


> Itachi's always been Kakashi's superior. Even Kamui GG wouldn't change that here.
> 
> Kakashi doesn't have any tools to defend against Amaterasu so for all intents and purposes Amaterasu = Kamui here.
> 
> Itachi also can Tsukiyomi Kakashi in CQC and without Naruto, Chiyo and Sakura there is no one else but Kakashi to be the target of Itachi's genjutsu and Kakashi won't have back-up to increase his chances of landing a successful bunshin feint.


This

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi starts with this.


Kakashi answers by doing this:

He sends his clone at Itachi's clone to make real Itachi come out, but real Itachi anticipates it to be clone as he also has full knowledge on Kakashi.
When Kakashi's superior clones eventually force real Itachi to reveal himself, Kakashi pushes him into Susanoo and takes him either from underground or by simply kamuisniping him in Susanoo.
​

Reactions: Funny 2 | Creative 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

Could go either way, but Kamui GG

both have comparable physical stats, though Itachi perhaps has a slight speed advantage, while kakashi has better stamina and access to the first gate.

Kakashi's ninjutsu counters Itachi's nicely (suitons >katons)
Itachi has a huge genjutsu advantage but only Tsukiyomi will be a threat which MS Kakashi should be able to resist with difficulty

Itachi has more MS techniques, Kakashi has the best one

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Kakashi's ninjutsu counters Itachi's nicely (suitons >katons)


Itachi has suitons as well..And he has faster handsigns so most likely would execute his jutsus before Kakashi



Santoryu said:


> kakashi has better stamina


Kakashi has a 3 stamina whereas sick Itachi has 2.5..So it's fair to assume that hypothetical healthy Itachi has better stamina due to having an Uchiha body



Santoryu said:


> Itachi has a huge genjutsu advantage but only Tsukiyomi will be a threat which MS Kakashi should be able to resist with difficulty


He can't resist Tsukuyomi if Itachi wants to kill him..He can try and avoid getting caught in it though..And when Kakashi is trying to Kamui Itachi, he'd just be offering his eye on a platter for Tsukuyomi


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## hbcaptain (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi is far superior

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Itachi has suitons as well..And he has faster handsigns so most likely would execute his jutsus before Kakashi


Not on the scale of Kakashi's. Refer to the battle with Kakuzu and Zabuza. 



RahulPK04 said:


> Kakashi has a 3 stamina whereas sick Itachi has 2.5..So it's fair to assume that hypothetical healthy Itachi has better stamina due to having an Uchiha body


I'm assuming this is itachi with part 1 health, and even then, he wouldn't have the advantage over Kakashi (refer to the war arc)



RahulPK04 said:


> He can't resist Tsukuyomi if Itachi wants to kill him..He can try and avoid getting caught in it though..And when Kakashi is trying to Kamui Itachi, he'd just be offering his eye on a platter for Tsukuyomi



He probably can with great difficulty. Even his part one 3 tomoe was able to resist it to some extent, but as noted by Itachi, you need the Mangekyo which provides even further resistance. Kakashi is an MS user who equally matched a senju enhanced Obito with no problem

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi has always been portrayed as well above Kakashi since Part 1. Kakashi stands no chance, once Itachi's MS comes out the fight is over as Kakashi will be quickly overwhelmed and shut down. He can counter Amaterasu with Kamui but he has no counter to Tsukuyomi or Susanoo at all. So I say Itachi, with mid difficulty at best.


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> Kakashi's superior clones


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


>


Kakashi is superior to Itachi, thus his clones too. I am not sure whether clones can use MS abilities aside from Susanoo, but using Tsukuiyomi on clone is a suicide for Itachi, Kamui and Amaterasu usage is also not reasonable, neither for Itachi's clone, nor Kakashi's. And when Kakashi's clone pushes Itachi's into Susanoo with superior ninjutsu and stamina, he easily reaches him from underground, attacking with raikiri or raikiri wolf.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

Kai said:


> The classic fight after a while. MS Kakashi (Fourth War) vs. Itachi.
> 
> Setting: Uchiha Shrine
> Knowledge: Full
> ...



If you're going to argue your case mainly in the light of portrayal, then Itachi is the winner. However, 
*Spoiler*: _Rambles _ 



Kakashi at his best is almost certainly better than Itachi at his worst, and vice versa. in Kakashi cases probably some time mid-way through the war acr battle, but before his eye-sight went totally bad and for Itachi his Edo form -- I believe portrayal places Itachi ahead of Kakashi. The main reason being simply that Itachi's having both Mangekyo-Sharingan and being a natural born Uchiha has therefore been able to take his Dojutsu powers further than Kakashi was ever able to. While the assertion can certainly be made that Kamui is portrayed as superior to Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu individually -- and I do in-fact think the manga supports such an assertion -- I do not think we are suppose to see Kamui as superior to both Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu, let alone the addition of Itachi's Stage-4 Susano'o which is only achievable with the power of both his Mangekyo-Sharingan. Now granted Kakashi's isn't all about Mangekyo-Sharingan, he has mastered countless techniques, but honestly I highly suspect that the amount of techniques Itachi's has mastered is extremely high as well, Kabuto even touches on this claiming Itachi's mastery of many techniques and Itachi having Three-Tome Sharingan copy abilities at his disposal for so many years further supports this. Kakashi given his portrayal as the copy ninja has probably mastered more and I certainly think the case could be made that Kakashi's capabilities outside of his Dojutsu are superior to Itachi's, but I do not think they have been portrayed as being so much significantly better than Itachi's, that it would make up the difference in their Dojutsu skills, especially with additional perks Itachi has access to in his Edo-Tensei form.




Full knowledge helps Itachi a heck of a lot more than Kakashi. Knowing about the Kamui means Itachi will act in ways where he isn't typically considered in-Character (IC). I think if it was Manga knowledge, Kakashi would probably win


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> If you're going to argue your case mainly in the light of portrayal, then Itachi is the winner.



Portrayal and feats go hand in hand. One could say it's pretty close in this regard. I invite you to disagree if you think Itachi is substantially ahead here.


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## Crow (Mar 24, 2018)

Kakashi wins. Obito is typically considered better than Sasuke and Kakashi has beaten Obito before so Kakashi is better. Plus with full knowledge Kakashi would drag the battle out and outlast him, if not Kamui GG


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Portrayal and feats go hand in hand.



Tell that to the Hanzo wankers. He beat a group of young Sannin who weren't half as strong as they're seen to be in the series (during a war where it is likely they were already exhausted), and yet it makes Hanzo high kage tier (even though he couldn't beat Chiyo during multiple encounters.

Or statements of Haku portraying him to be on Kakashi level (part 1), then lose to Naruto KN0, badly. Im sure there are other examples of portrayal not meeting the feats


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kakashi has beaten Obito before so Kakashi is better


Oh boy


What if Kakashi Kamuis a clone?? And another?? And keeps on Kamui-ing a clone after clone..Itachi is quite capable of doing that you know..In a 1v1 fight he did it against a mastered Sage Mode user and keeping up with Itachi's hand seals while trying to concentrate on Kamui-ing him is next to impossible for Kakashi..And Moreover Kamui would be a dumb decision on Kakashi's part coz he'd be showing his eye straight to Itachi as if he's inviting a genjutsu..Lol..With Kamui out of the way Kakashi doesn't have much to take Itachi down with

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Bonly (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kakashi wins. Obito is typically considered better than Sasuke and Kakashi has beaten Obito before so Kakashi is better. Plus with full knowledge Kakashi would drag the battle out and outlast him, if not Kamui GG



You mean that Obito let Kakashi win in order to follow through with his plans

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Crow (Mar 24, 2018)

Bonly said:


> You mean that Obito let Kakashi win in order to follow through with his plans



Been awhile since I read the Manga. Kakashi can still outlast Itachi. He can avoid Genjutsu the way Gai did. With full knowledge he can Kamui the Amaterasu away or hide underground to avoid it. If Itachi activates Susanoo Kakashi can avoid the Tosuka blade for a good 5 minutes before Itachi begins to get exhausted and his illness starts to kick in.


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kakashi wins. Obito is typically considered better than Sasuke and Kakashi has beaten Obito before so Kakashi is better. Plus with full knowledge Kakashi would drag the battle out and outlast him, if not Kamui GG


Obito let Kakashi win though.


JuicyG said:


> Tell that to the Hanzo wankers. He beat a group of young Sannin who weren't half as strong as they're seen to be in the series (during a war where it is likely they were already exhausted), and yet it makes Hanzo high kage tier (even though he couldn't beat Chiyo during multiple encounters.


First off, we don't even know how strong the Sannin were back then. But we do know they all had their boss summons, so they couldn't be that weak. Secondly, people don't say Hanzo is so powerful only due to what he did against the Sannin. They say that because Nagato himself said that the reason Hanzo lost to Pain was because he lost his conviction. Thirdly, we have literally no idea how the encounters with Chiyo went whatsoever so using that to downplay Hanzo doesn't make sense.


> Or statements of Haku portraying him to be on Kakashi level (part 1), then lose to Naruto KN0, badly. Im sure there are other examples of portrayal not meeting the feats


Immediately after Zabuza went on his rant Kakashi said that Zabuza was doing noting more than bragging. Hell, Zabuza even said he was boasting, so his comments weren't meant to be taken seriously: So there's no contradiction. Imho hype and feats both make up a character's overall portrayal.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Been awhile since I read the Manga. Kakashi can still outlast Itachi. He can avoid Genjutsu the way Gai did. With full knowledge he can Kamui the Amaterasu away or hide underground to avoid it. If Itachi activates Susanoo Kakashi can avoid the Tosuka blade for a good 5 minutes before Itachi begins to get exhausted and his illness starts to kick in.



You act as if Itachi is going to sit in V4 and try to hit Kakashi. He is a lot smarter than that


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kakashi can still outlast Itachi.


Yes if Itachi is a dumbass who has no chakra control



Knight of Chaos said:


> He can avoid Genjutsu the way Gai did


Only Guy has shown that ability noone else..Guy's feats aren't transferable



Knight of Chaos said:


> With full knowledge he can Kamui the Amaterasu


From his body?? Coz Amaterasu has no trajectory, rather it spawns on the target..Kakashi has to Kamui it while he's screaming in agony



Knight of Chaos said:


> If Itachi activates Susanoo Kakashi can avoid the Tosuka blade for a good 5 minutes before Itachi begins to get exhausted and his illness starts to kick in.


Again you are assuming Itachi needs susanoo here..And you are also assuming that Itachi doesn't know his limits and would keep on using it..Itachi can do just fine without the Susanoo..He is faster and better at CqC than Kakashi..Has faster hand seals, better distractions with crows..And is equally smart if not smarter


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

Even so, If Kakashi opts for Kamui warp from the start. What is Itachi's move?


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## Crow (Mar 24, 2018)

Whats stopping Kakashi from Kamui GG'ing Itachi?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 24, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Even so, If Kakashi opts for Kamui warp from the start. What is Itachi's move?



"If Kakashi doesn't act IC, what's Itachi's move?"


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## Crow (Mar 24, 2018)

ThomasTheCat said:


> "If Kakashi doesn't act IC, what's Itachi's move?"



Kamui is IC for Kakashi in Situations of major theats. Kakashi was gonna Kamui the Gedo Mazo. He tried to Kamui Madara(Tobi) . If Kakashi thinks a threat is big enough he will bring it out. And Kakashi will use all his tools to take down Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Been awhile since I read the Manga. Kakashi can still outlast Itachi.



But Itachi can kill Kakashi before he gets to tired to fight.



> He can avoid Genjutsu the way Gai did.



No he can't, Kakashi didn't train to learn the same method that Gai did.



> With full knowledge he can Kamui the Amaterasu away or hide underground to avoid it.



If Kakashi is already hit then he can't get rid of the flames with Kamui. If Kakashi hides underground then Itachi just waits for him to pop back up and Itachi just chills meaning no using chakra really so Kakashi would get nowhere.



> If Itachi activates Susanoo Kakashi can avoid the Tosuka blade for a good 5 minutes before Itachi begins to get exhausted and his illness starts to kick in.



Kakashi can't help avoiding the blade that has a long extended reach that could cut off multiple heads of Orochi's Yamata as well as be used fast enough that it caught Orochi by surprise and mid sentence let alone everything else Itachi can do with Susanoo. Your basically ignoring how Kakashi actually fights and ignoring Itachi's skills just to say "Hey Kakashi avoids everything" which is flawed. Show me a fight where Kakashi never took a hit once in a fight or anything in a single, oh wait you can't because Kakashi never does and usually takes a few blows but somehow against Itachi here he's magically gonna avoid everything Itachi can do and just outlast him?


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kamui is IC for Kakashi in Situations of major theats. Kakashi was gonna Kamui the Gedo Mazo. He tried to Kamui Madara(Tobi) . If Kakashi thinks a threat is big enough he will bring it out. And Kakashi will use all his tools to take down Itachi.



I totally agree that he will try Kamui at some point. Using it right at the start of a fight is rather OOC.


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> First off, we don't even know how strong the Sannin were back then. But we do know they all had their boss summons, so they couldn't be that weak.




Orochimaru didn't have edo tensei
No indication of Jiraiya in Sage Mode
Nothing to suggest that Tsunade was using Sōzō Saisei 
That means they were _not _nearly as strong as their series counter-part. Period. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Secondly, people don't say Hanzo is so powerful only due to what he did against the Sannin. They say that because Nagato himself said that the reason Hanzo lost to Pain was because he lost his conviction.



Statements have been made in the series countless times that are not to be taken literally. Hyperbole can be found everywhere. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Thirdly, we have literally no idea how the encounters with Chiyo went whatsoever so using that to downplay Hanzo doesn't make sense.



Chiyo fought with Hanzo more than once, surviving each time and was able to gain enough battle intel that she was able to make an antidote against Hanzo. One might conclude that in their next meeting Chiyo could have won because of that. It is generally held that Chiyo is a low kage tier character, so what does that make Hanzo. 

The point being is that Itachi's portrayal is greater than Kakashi's and it has nothing to do with his feats not meeting his portrayal rather than vice versa like a character such as Hanzo




Isaiah13000 said:


> Imho hype and feats both make up a character's overall portrayal.



This I agree with. You can't have so much of one side and lack so significantly on the other side

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 24, 2018)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Whats stopping Kakashi from Kamui GG'ing Itachi?


Wuts stopping Itachi from Amaterasu'ing Kakashi's head or cutting him in half with Susanoo

We gotta stay IC fham


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Tell that to the Hanzo wankers. He beat a group of young Sannin who weren't half as strong as they're seen to be in the series (during a war where it is likely they were already exhausted), and yet it makes Hanzo high kage tier (even though he couldn't beat Chiyo during multiple encounters.
> 
> Or statements of Haku portraying him to be on Kakashi level (part 1), then lose to Naruto KN0, badly. Im sure there are other examples of portrayal not meeting the feats



Isiah-chan covered half of my response for me.

Perhaps I should have elaborated. Consider base Kakashi's feat of matching a Version two Jinjuriki; we don't have an explicit statement which later undergirds his role in that battle, if we did, it'd be something along the lines of: "The great moniker, Hatake Kakashi, in an exhausted state, was so skillful that he competed with the monstrous dojutsu-amped Jinjurki and lived to tell the tale". But we don't have that, what we have is the battle, the chapter, the feat of what's happening right in front of our eyes. From that we can infer that this battle can be used to bolster Kakashi's portrayal, hence my statement.

Hanzo is not comparable at all; he's a dude we've never seen go all out on panel, and his portrayal is derived from respectable character statements. We can speculate, though. Kakashi is a fighter we've seen go all out on several occasions and even had the benefit of watching his development from arc to arc.


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

@Santoryu I do believe Itachi has a higher portrayal than Kakashi but no its not a large gap


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> @Santoryu I do believe Itachi has a higher portrayal than Kakashi but no its not a large gap



Okay

that's reasonable. i think they're incredibly close, and if i was an itachi fan, i'd absolutely advocate his win here 
it's probably a 50/50 match, but yeah, kamui gg


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## JuicyG (Mar 24, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Okay
> 
> that's reasonable. i think they're incredibly close, and if i was an itachi fan, i'd absolutely advocate his win here
> it's probably a 50/50 match, but yeah, kamui gg



I to think Kamui GG is plausible. I think full intel though helps Itachi more so however

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 24, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Okay
> 
> that's reasonable. i think they're incredibly close, and if i was an itachi fan, i'd absolutely advocate his win here
> it's probably a 50/50 match, but yeah, kamui gg


So you’re admitting that you’re only calling for Kakashi to win because because he’s your favorite.


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

People seem to view the battle in Kamui Dimension as fully controlled or thrown by Obito.
Firstly, people tend to downplay their Genjutsu battle. I feel like it is fair to say Obito could take Kakashi under control and make him pierce Obito's seal, if he took over in that genjutsu fight, avoiding any following physical battle. But that didn't happen.
Others, I think, don't realize Obito must've been really interested in severely/decently harming Kakashi during the whole fight, if not completely killing him when they pierced each other, since not succeding in that could result in Kakashi following him to wherever the place Obito teleports to. He had not reason to leave Kakashi alive.
And the last, but not least: Obito himself stated: "I *will*...let...you...win...this...battle", not "I *let*...you...win...this...battle", not saying everything went as Obito planned, but claiming this wasn't the end and he will till prevail.​


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> So you’re admitting that you’re only calling for Kakashi to win because because he’s your favorite.



you've misunderstood 


i'm admitting that i'm advocating/arguing his victory because
it's a 50/50 match
if i was an itachi fan i'd argue for itachi but still admit it's 50/50

everyone is biased to some degree

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> From his body?? Coz Amaterasu has no trajectory, rather it spawns on the target..Kakashi has to Kamui it while he's screaming in agony


people still believe this in 2k18...


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> people still believe this in 2k18...


Coz it's true


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Coz it's true


Sasuke using Blaze Release and not Amaterasu and even so failing to lay black flames on Gaara disagrees.
Databook disagrees.
Ay disagrees.
Itachi disagrees.


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> Sasuke using Blaze Release and not Amaterasu and even so failing to lay black flames on Gaara disagrees.


Sasuke used Enton flames from his susanoo..Not Amaterasu itself..Totally different..Gaara can see it coming..Unless you think Enton flames from the susanoo is somehow faster than Amaterasu



Architect said:


> Databook disagrees.


Pls do show me where in databook it says that Amaterasu has a trajectory



Architect said:


> Ay disagrees.


Ay had knowledge and was in top speed..The dude Shunshin'd away from Sasuke's focal point..Would've been a different story if he wasn't aware of the flames though


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Sasuke used Enton flames from his susanoo..Not Amaterasu itself..Totally different..Gaara can see it coming..Unless you think Enton flames from the susanoo is somehow faster than Amaterasu


That is the point. Sasuke realized mere amaterasu projectile wouldn't land on Gaara and likely tried to speed it with enton.


RahulPK04 said:


> Pls do show me where in databook it says that Amaterasu has a trajectory


Databook states Amaterasu works only at a less than 5 meters distance.
Since we know Amaterasu can reach more than 5 meters it clearly has trajectory after its maximum appearance range, which lies within 5 meters.


RahulPK04 said:


> Ay had knowledge and was on top speed..They dude Shunshin'd away from Sasuke's focal point..Would've been a different story if he wasn't aware of the flames though


Was he aware of Amaterasu?


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 24, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Orochimaru didn't have edo tensei
> No indication of Jiraiya in Sage Mode
> Nothing to suggest that Tsunade was using Sōzō Saisei
> That means they were _not _nearly as strong as their series counter-part. Period.


 You're still looking at this from the wrong point of view. The three of them working together as a unit with their boss summons is still a formidable force, the databooks even say that when working together their combat abilities triple.


> Statements have been made in the series countless times that are not to be taken literally. Hyperbole can be found everywhere.


 Statements such as "Susanoo can destroy all things in this world" is hyperbole. Statements like what Nagato said however are not. 


> Chiyo fought with Hanzo more than once, surviving each time and was able to gain enough battle intel that she was able to make an antidote against Hanzo. One might conclude that in their next meeting Chiyo could have won because of that. It is generally held that Chiyo is a low kage tier character, so what does that make Hanzo.


So you're just gonna ignore the rest of Hanzo's portrayal just because he fought Chiyo under unknown circumstances?


> The point being is that Itachi's portrayal is greater than Kakashi's and it has nothing to do with his feats not meeting his portrayal rather than vice versa like a character such as Hanzo.


I don't think there is even any legitimate examples of a character's hype not coinciding with their feats.


> This I agree with. You can't have so much of one side and lack so significantly on the other side


Alright.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> That is the point. Sasuke realized mere amaterasu projectile wouldn't land on Gaara and likely tried to speed it with ento


Who said that?? Head cannon?? Why would he resort to Amaterasu again and waste chakra when he has flames ready to be controlled



Architect said:


> Databook states Amaterasu works only at a less than 5 meters distance.


Databook also says Sasuke is stronger than All Akatsuki members.

Thats more like 200m



Architect said:


> Was he aware of Amaterasu?


Shee was aware of Amaterasu..So it's only natural his Boss would be too..Moment he saw blood dripping from Sauce's eye he wouldve predicted Amaterasu.

And this is what zetsu days about Amaterasu


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

itachi loves kakashi san 
always praises him and addresses him as "san"

Reactions: Like 1


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> itachi loves kakashi san
> always praises him and addresses him as "san"


Well everyone loves Kakashi san..He's the G.O.A.T of the series..But he ain't winning here


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## Santoryu (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Well everyone loves Kakashi san..He's the G.O.A.T of the series..But he ain't winning here

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Gohara (Mar 24, 2018)

Itachi's character wins in my opinion, mostly anything that Kakashi can do Itachi's character can do better and also has access to top tier techniques such as Izanami and Izanagi.


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Who said that?? Head cannon?? Why would he resort to Amaterasu again and waste chakra when he has flames ready to be controlled


did he knew Sasuke had that ability before he saw it in action?


RahulPK04 said:


> Databook also says Sasuke is stronger than All Akatsuki members.





Architect said:


> I think what was meant there is Sasuke being stronger than a single Akatsuki member. They likely based that on the fight against PIS Deidara, which Sasuke won.





RahulPK04 said:


> Thats more like 200m


lol no, likely 20-50 meters.
At such distance nothing makes me think flames needed to appear at Cerberus to set it ablaze.


RahulPK04 said:


> And this is what zetsu days about Amaterasu


That's true. It appears within it's range that is less than 5 meters.


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## Marvel (Mar 24, 2018)

War Arc Kakashi wins this he’s shown to be far superior in raw strength and durability as indicated when he was swapping hands and taking punches from V2 Jin like in @Santoryu’s sig.

He also has Kamui which would negate Susanoo  defense and Amaterasu. Not to mention he excels in clone feints too and has developed even more Raikiri Variats to aid him in battle.


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Who said that?? Head cannon?? Why would he resort to Amaterasu again and waste chakra when he has flames ready to be controlled


he didn't have any flames around his susanoo before that.


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> War Arc Kakashi wins this he’s shown to be far superior in raw strength and durability as indicated when he was swapping hands and taking punches from V2 Jin like in @Santoryu’s sig.
> 
> He also has Kamui which would negate Susanoo  defense and Amaterasu. Not to mention he excels in clone feints too and has developed even more Raikiri Variats to aid him in battle.


But Itachi was swapping hands with KM Naruto


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## Marvel (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> But Itachi was swapping hands with KM Naruto


Oof forgot my about that


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## Maverick04 (Mar 24, 2018)

Architect said:


> ol no, likely 20-50 meters.
> At such distance nothing makes me think flames needed to appear at Cerberus to set it ablaze.


Kishi never ever drew it's trajectory..If it really had one, then he couldve atleast shown it once..Not even here against Cerberus..Zetsu clearly states it that it appears on the target..Its definitely not instant though..None of the MS jutsus are instant..It requires some chakra buildup in the eye before being executed.



Architect said:


> he didn't have any flames around his susanoo before that.


He did though..He surrounded the ribcage susanoo with Enton flames against raikage


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## Architect (Mar 24, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Kishi never ever drew it's trajectory..If it really had one, then he couldve atleast shown it once..Not even here against Cerberus..Zetsu clearly states it that it appears on the target..Its definitely not instant though..None of the MS jutsus are instant..It requires some chakra buildup in the eye before being executed.


I don't think he had, when he has shown that Sasuke can't set Gaara on flame with Amaterasu. Nothing Zetsu said contradicts my words. 


RahulPK04 said:


> He did though..He surrounded the ribcage susanoo with Enton flames against raikage


 

No flames around Susanoo.
Then he intendedly forms enton to shoot Gaara with it:


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 24, 2018)

Kai said:


> The classic fight after a while. MS Kakashi (Fourth War) vs. Itachi.
> 
> Setting: Uchiha Shrine
> Knowledge: Full
> ...


Until Kakashi has DMS, he lose. Fact, not opinion.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 24, 2018)

Full knowledge changes the approach of both characters.

Itachi isn't stupid, with full knowledge he'll know Kakashi's exploits in the war with his Kamui that made him one of he most scrappiest ninja. He's not going to fight in the open against someone who can snip off his body parts at any moment, teleport behind him or warp his attacks away and attack him unguarded. He'll set up tricks with crow screens, great fireball screens and he'll switch out with bunshins regularly to stay out of Kakashi's LoS constantly until he can land his Totsuka or Tsukuyomi.

Kakashi isn't stupid, in fact he's the greatest combat mind in this story and it's not really close, he's not going to leave himself vulnerable at any point in this fight unless he's certain he can kill Itachi. It's the same approach he took against Itachi's clone (who he thought was the real), and Nagato's Paths - two of the strongest enemies he's faced as this version of himself. With full knowledge he'll know he's defeated Orochimaru twice, Necromancer Kabuto and Undead Nagato - so even his detailed knowledge on Itachi through his fights and information gathered on him through reputation makes Itachi an even more dangerous opponent than he originally thought in this simulation. He's going to dig a lot, any version of Kakashi you see in the open will be a clone every time, and his entire combat plan will come down to a single offensive attack (as his battle against Pain and Kaguya ended). If it fails he will die. 

Knowing these approaches I give Kakashi the benefit of the doubt. It's really going to come down to a game of chicken and whoever gets exposed first will be the one to fall.

I favor Kakashi because his means of taking Itachi out are faster and easier, he's smarter than him, has already seen through his more simple combat tricks in Part 1, and Kamui is faster than anyone of Itachi's techniques, can be fired from virtually any range and gives no indication of his presence - he doesn't even have to blitz Itachi once he locates him he can kill him while under a bush 100 meters away, he can teleport to deliver it from a hundred meters in the sky or directly behind him the moment Itachi has exposed himself.

The difference is Itachi has to close distance to land a mid range Totsuka Stab or Tsukuyomi to finish Kakashi - nothing else works to kill him - while Kakashi needs only see Itachi from long range at any point to end him - from anywhere on the field.

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3


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## sabre320 (Mar 26, 2018)

Architect said:


> '





RahulPK04 said:


> Who said that?? Head cannon?? Why would he resort to Amaterasu again and waste chakra when he has flames ready to be controlled
> 
> 
> Databook also says Sasuke is stronger than All Akatsuki members.
> ...


Its very effective at 5m but at longer ranges becomes more of a projectile that can be intercepted or dodged aka hebi sasuke or hachibi with the tentacle.


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## Trojan (Mar 26, 2018)

itachi wins.


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## sabre320 (Mar 26, 2018)

Hussain said:


> itachi wins.


Is that a bishounen bad boy guts.....


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## Kisame (Mar 26, 2018)

DaVizWiz said:


> The difference is Itachi has to close distance to land a mid range Totsuka Stab or Tsukuyomi to finish Kakashi - nothing else works to kill him - while Kakashi needs only see Itachi from long range at any point to end him - from anywhere on the field.


Since Kakashi has no special defense against Amaterasu, it is essentially like Kamui.

Kamui = Amaterasu

And Itachi also has Tsukiyomi and Totsuka on top of that.

Kakashi also isn't smarter, Kishi portrayed Itachi as the person who guided Naruto and Bee to figure out how to beat Nagato.

"At 7 he had wisdom of Hokage"

"Every jutsu has a weakness"

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Mar 27, 2018)

Itachi runs out of field and controls kakashi with long range Genjutsu and kills him......Kamui is useless Totsuka negates it cutting it down...Itachi's speed >>>>>> Kakashi's speed who couldnt visualize a clone feint of non-serious Itachi......no one has moved that fast when not serious in naruto verse.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## sabre320 (Mar 27, 2018)

Ah the itachi wank of old so nostalgic:]


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## ThomasTheCat (Mar 27, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Itachi runs out of field and controls kakashi with long range Genjutsu and kills him......Kamui is useless Totsuka negates it cutting it down...Itachi's speed >>>>>> Kakashi's speed who couldnt visualize a clone feint of non-serious Itachi......no one has moved that fast when not serious in naruto verse.



Your Itachi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Kaguya


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 27, 2018)

Another instance where Kamui makes Kakashi’s strength incredibly hard to judge. He was very obviously portrayed as weaker than Itachi and even with Kamui during the War, Itachi was still getting better hype even though he was already dead. 

There’s no feasible reason why he couldn’t just Kamui GG, but Kishimoto would never write the battle that way. Kamui would at least get rid of Amaterasu in the early stages of the battle though, and maybe the Totsuka Blade too.

If it was the manga, I’d say Kakashi gets weakened by Tsukuyomi and finished off thereafter. In this hypothetical match-up, Kamui GG after regular ninjutsu fails, and then Itachi dies. But of course that would never actually happen.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 27, 2018)

Isaiah13000 said:


> You're still looking at this from the wrong point of view. The three of them working together as a unit with their boss summons is still a formidable force, the databooks even say that when working together their combat abilities triple.



Ok? It still means they weren't beat by Hanzo at the levels of strength the sannin have shown in the series. We literally don't even know how strong pre-named sannin were. By all accountants they seem to be no stronger than part 1 named jounin (with only part 1 feats) at best.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Statements such as "Susanoo can destroy all things in this world" is hyperbole. Statements like what Nagato said however are not.



True, but statements that are for hyping purposes can only serve so much to the audience. Given the feats that we have of Hanzo, (of beating young group of sannin, not being able to kill Chiyo, beating a young Mifune, and then losing to Mifune as edo), there is nothing Hanzo should have been able to do to Pain. That statement was an outlier and inconsistent with his characters performance in the series. 



Isaiah13000 said:


> So you're just gonna ignore the rest of Hanzo's portrayal just because he fought Chiyo under unknown circumstances?



Nothing you can say will make Hanzo's feats = his Hype/Portrayal of being a near top tier if not a top tier



Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't think there is even any legitimate examples of a character's hype not coinciding with their feats.



We're literally talking about the most notorious case, right now.



Isaiah13000 said:


> Alright.



Ok.


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## wooly Eullerex (Mar 27, 2018)

itachi likely wins in base & would win instantaneously, w/ his very 1st use of ms tech, if it came to it

kakashi is outclassed combat prowess

Reactions: Optimistic 2


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 27, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Ok? It still means they weren't beat by Hanzo at the levels of strength the sannin have shown in the series. We literally don't even know how strong pre-named sannin were. *By all accountants they seem to be no stronger than part 1 named jounin (with only part 1 feats) at best.*



We never see them fight and have zero accounts of them being compared to any of the part one Jonin.

Which wouldn’t make sense because Gamabunta, Katsuyu, And Manda are all stronger than the part one Jonin. It makes even less sense when Manda only listens to Orochimaru because he knows he cannot defeat Orochimaru. This means the Sannin are already stronger than their summons, who are in turn stronger than Zabuza, part one Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## JuicyG (Mar 27, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> We never see them fight and have zero accounts of them being compared to any of the part one Jonin.
> 
> Which wouldn’t make sense because Gamabunta, Katsuyu, And Manda are all stronger than the part one Jonin. It makes even less sense when Manda only listens to Orochimaru because he knows he cannot defeat Orochimaru. This means the Sannin are already stronger than their summons, who are in turn stronger than Zabuza, part one Kakashi, Asuma, and Kurenai.



By all accounts, means that we only know them as named jounin of the leaf at that time. Other named Jounin of the leaf includes those you've listed. Anything else is mere speculation of how strong they were. However we know they are at least weaker than their series counterparts. And there is no reason to make them stronger than what we do know about them, being named jounin.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 27, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> By all accounts, means that we only know them as named jounin of the leaf at that time. Other named Jounin of the leaf includes those you've listed. Anything else is mere speculation of how strong they were. However we know they are at least weaker than their series counterparts. And there is no reason to make them stronger than what we do know about them, being named jounin.


We don’t know them them as Jonin, we know them as the Sannin and that Tsunade is said to have won Konoha a world war. Their reputation far exceeds Jonin by that point. 

I already explained that having their summons and being stronger than them means that they are over twice as stronger as the Part One Jonin, as the summons are individually stronger than the Part One Jonin.


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## JuicyG (Mar 27, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> We don’t know them them as Jonin, we know them as the Sannin and that Tsunade is said to have won Konoha a world war. Their reputation far exceeds Jonin by that point.
> 
> I already explained that having their summons and being stronger than them means that they are over twice as stronger as the Part One Jonin, as the summons are individually stronger than the Part One Jonin.



They were not called sannin pre hanzo fight.

So please enlighten me exactly how strong pre hanzo fight trio were individually (tier wise if you would)

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 27, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> They were not called sannin pre hanzo fight.
> 
> So please enlighten me exactly how strong pre hanzo fight trio were individually (tier wise if you would)


At minimum they were as strong as two Manda’a, given that Manda only listens to Orochimaru because he cannot beat him. Tsunade’s support abilities and innovation in the medical field were great enough that she was was said to have won Konoha the Second Ninja World War.



> They were not called sannin pre hanzo fight.



But they were after fighting him, which shows that arguably the worlds strongest Ninja at that point considered them to be exceptional.

Based on all of this I would say that they individually had to atleast be as strong as Entry Kage level Ninja in terms of direct fighting abilities. Ninja like Old Chiyo, Rasa Mifune, Darui, Kitsuchi. At best they were likely Low Kage, which I consider to be ninja like Kisame, Part Two Kakashi, Wind Arc Naruto, Deidara, Kakazu.

Tsunade still has support abilities that elevates her well above that in a war setting, to the point that she could said to have won a war. 

Overall, fighting all three of them like that, plus a legion of other Ninja who fought the Hanzo with the Sannin, would be an unbelievable feat that would at bare minimum require someone around 55 year old SM Jiraiya level. 

And Hanzo did it without taking an visible damage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Mar 27, 2018)

JuicyG said:


> Ok? It still means they weren't beat by Hanzo at the levels of strength the sannin have shown in the series. We literally don't even know how strong pre-named sannin were. *By all accountants they seem to be no stronger than part 1 named jounin (with only part 1 feats) at best.*


How would they be on par with Part 1 Jonin at best when they have their Kage level boss summons at their disposal? It's stated that Sannin's combat prowess triples when they're all together and they have Gamabunta, Manda, and Katsuyu to fight alongside and you're saying they are only Jonin level? Come on man.


> True, but statements that are for hyping purposes can only serve so much to the audience. Given the feats that we have of Hanzo, (of beating young group of sannin, not being able to kill Chiyo, beating a young Mifune, and then losing to Mifune as edo), there is nothing Hanzo should have been able to do to Pain. That statement was an outlier and inconsistent with his characters performance in the series.


No it isn't. You're just using flawed arguments right now. Like I said, the Sannin would've still been Kage level due to having their summons back then. The circumstances surrounding his fights with Chiyo are completely unknown. He defeated Mifune and left him alive, and he only "lost" to Mifune as an Edo because he grew weaker due to losing his conviction. That was literally stated during the fight. 


> Nothing you can say will make Hanzo's feats = his Hype/Portrayal of being a near top tier if not a top tier


 You put too much emphasis on feats. You don't blatantly ignore what characters are saying in favor of your own perception of their feats. Not to mention Hanzo barely has any feats in general so ranking him based solely on that is illogical. You need to realize that Kishimoto either doesn't have the time, want, or need to show off the feats of all of his strong characters. Which is why we're left with nothing more than a few statements to tell us how strong they were.


> We're literally talking about the most notorious case, right now.


Which we seem to disagree on.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Mar 27, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Another instance where Kamui makes Kakashi’s strength incredibly hard to judge. He was very obviously portrayed as weaker than Itachi and even with Kamui during the War, Itachi was still getting better hype even though he was already dead.
> 
> There’s no feasible reason why he couldn’t just Kamui GG, but Kishimoto would never write the battle that way. Kamui would at least get rid of Amaterasu in the early stages of the battle though, and maybe the Totsuka Blade too.
> 
> If it was the manga, I’d say Kakashi gets weakened by Tsukuyomi and finished off thereafter. In this hypothetical match-up, Kamui GG after regular ninjutsu fails, and then Itachi dies. But of course that would never actually happen.


Practically speaking why is Amaterasu any different than Kamui here?

Kakashi also can't get rid of the flames if they are on him via Kamui, that's Obito's ability.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Mar 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> Practically speaking why is Amaterasu any different than Kamui here?



Practically speaking Kamui has more uses than Itachi's Amaterasu.

-Kamui can be used offensively, with varying sizes and range while ignoring durability, while also having better high end feats.
-It can also be used defensively.
-Can be used to warp away to safety.
-Kamui'd objects can be shot right back out.

Even though it's one jutsu, it has multiple uses.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sabre320 (Mar 27, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Another instance where Kamui makes Kakashi’s strength incredibly hard to judge. He was very obviously portrayed as weaker than Itachi and even with Kamui during the War, Itachi was still getting better hype even though he was already dead.
> 
> There’s no feasible reason why he couldn’t just Kamui GG, but Kishimoto would never write the battle that way. Kamui would at least get rid of Amaterasu in the early stages of the battle though, and maybe the Totsuka Blade too.
> 
> If it was the manga, I’d say Kakashi gets weakened by Tsukuyomi and finished off thereafter. In this hypothetical match-up, Kamui GG after regular ninjutsu fails, and then Itachi dies. But of course that would never actually happen.



Separating kamui is unfair and disengineous....its always downplay with kakashi as if kamui and him are separate, it is his technique and he is extremely skilled and deadly with it by the end arc[interrupting summoning midway and warping bm naruto] hell why not separate madara from sussano?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Mar 27, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Practically speaking Kamui has more uses than Itachi's Amaterasu.
> 
> -Kamui can be used offensively, with varying sizes and range while ignoring durability, while also having better high end feats.
> -It can also be used defensively.
> ...


Kamui >>> Amaterasu in general.

Kamui > Amaterasu offensively when you put them against all the characters (some characters have skill sets to counter Amaterasu, Kamui here's only the other Kamui and Hiraishin).

However, Kakashi himself doesn't have any special defense against Amaterasu, so offensively Kamui and Amaterasu should be the same here.

If Itachi can get sniped, Kakashi can get burned.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Mar 27, 2018)

I believe Shark is saying that Itachi can’t outright dodge or tank Kamui, but Kakashi can’t outright dodge or tank Amaterasu, both jutsu can be used at any point, and either technique can likely only be countered here through clone feinting. Which means that they have roughly the same offensive value in this fight.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kisame (Mar 27, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> I believe Shark is saying that Itachi can’t outright dodge or tank Kamui, but Kakashi can’t outright dodge or tank Amaterasu, both jutsu can be used at any point, and either technique can likely only be countered here through clone feinting. Which means that they have roughly the same offensive value in this fight.


Yes that's exactly what I'm saying.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> Practically speaking why is Amaterasu any different than Kamui here?
> 
> Kakashi also can't get rid of the flames if they are on him via Kamui, that's Obito's ability.



Hebi Sasuke reacted to Amaterasu and temporarily managed to run away from it. I'm sure MS Kakashi could just Kamui it away before it could make contact. 



sabre320 said:


> Separating kamui is unfair and disengineous....its always downplay with kakashi as if kamui and him are separate, it is his technique and he is extremely skilled and deadly with it by the end arc[interrupting summoning midway and warping bm naruto] hell why not separate madara from sussano?



It's not downplay. As I said, there's no feasible reason he couldn't just Kamui GG, but based on all of his other techniques, on his hype compared to that of other characters and on his accomplishments during Part 2, Kamui is just incongruent with his entire portrayal. 

Madara is portrayed as extraordinarily powerful even without Susano'o, and like Itachi, possesses abilities that match or even exceed it in power. Kakashi's other techniques don't even come close.


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## sabre320 (Mar 27, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hebi Sasuke reacted to Amaterasu and temporarily managed to run away from it. I'm sure MS Kakashi could just Kamui it away before it could make contact.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Same with most trump cards aka oonoki with jinton, raikage with his armour , tobirama with hirashin etc...I believe by the end of the war arc kakashis portrayal came pretty close to sannin level which is similar to itachis sparring with v2s etc.


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## Kisame (Mar 27, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Hebi Sasuke reacted to Amaterasu and temporarily managed to run away from it.


Hebi Sasuke was on the lookout for Amaterasu by staring into Itachi's eyes and running at the right time. It still didn't matter at the end because he still got caught without being able to do anything so the end result is the same as he wasn't able to achieve anything in that time frame to prevent him from being caught.

Kakashi also won't look at Itachi's eyes because he'll get one-shotted by Tsukiyomi. There's also the fact that Itachi can use it from a distance without warning.


> I'm sure MS Kakashi could just Kamui it away before it could make contact.


Amaterasu and Kamui both appear on the target. They don't travel.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 27, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Same with most trump cards aka oonoki with jinton, raikage with his armour , tobirama with hirashin etc...I believe by the end of the war arc kakashis portrayal came pretty close to sannin level which is similar to itachis sparring with v2s etc.



Not really. Without Kamui, Kakashi is nearly defeated by Kakuzu. Furthermore, Wind Arc Naruto, who has to be saved by Yamato as soon he tries to attack Kakuzu, is still considered to be stronger than this version of Kakashi.

Even during the Pein Arc, Kakashi finds Jiraiya's power to be _significantly_ above his own. Jiraiya doesn't consider him strong enough to be a Hokage at that point either.

At best, Kakashi without Kamui is a Low Kage Tier shinobi, and not a very powerful one at that.

With his War Arc Kamui, he shoots up about two tiers and hypothetically there's no reason he couldn't use it to insta-GG the Sannin, Itachi, Killer Bee, SM Naruto etc. That's a _huge_ increase in power.

Onoki without Jinton still manages to to stop a colossal meteor from crushing the Fourth Division, paralyse four Susano'o Moku Bunshin and garner praise from Madara Uchiha himself. He's weaker, but not to the same extent.

Tobirama might drop lower without his signature move, but not that much. His Shunshin isn't far behind Minato's and his reflexes don't dissolve any. Plus he's considered one of the best suiton users to ever live. His hype in other areas was not far behind that of Hiraishin.

The Raikage obviously gets a lot weaker without RnY, but then again, that's literally his only shown ninjutsu. Kakashi showed plenty of techniques that he used on a regular basis - Raikiri was his signature move, and they were all miles behind Kamui in overall power.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 27, 2018)

Shark said:


> Hebi Sasuke was on the lookout for Amaterasu by staring into Itachi's eyes and running at the right time. It still didn't matter at the end because he still got caught without being able to do anything so the end result is the same as he wasn't able to achieve anything in that time frame to prevent him from being caught.
> 
> Kakashi also won't look at Itachi's eyes because he'll get one-shotted by Tsukiyomi. There's also the fact that Itachi can use it from a distance without warning.
> 
> Amaterasu and Kamui both appear on the target. They don't travel.



No, Amaterasu travels. We see it travelling through a sequence of panels when it's used on Gyūki, A4 side-steps it, and Sasuke outruns it (it wouldn't matter if he started moving before Itachi used it or not, if it spawned on top of him as you suggest). It doesn't appear right on the target like Kamui does. If it did, it wouldn't have been homing in on Sasuke and chasing after him. If it appears like it just spawns on the target, it's because Kishimoto couldn't be bothered drawing the panels.


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## Kisame (Mar 27, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> No, Amaterasu travels.


Zetsu and the DB say it spawns on the target.


> We see it travelling through a sequence of panels when it's used on Gyūki


It didn't travel, the sequence is highlighting the focus of Sasuke's eyesight. If it was travelling we would have seen the flames drawn on the panels.


> A4 side-steps it


He moved at the right time, before the flames appeared on him.

And "Side-stepped" is an understatement, he amped his chakras to Bijuu-levels and moved so fast there were after-images. There is literally no movement speed in the entire manga that creates afterimages.


> and Sasuke outruns it (it wouldn't matter if he started moving before Itachi used it or not, if it spawned on top of him as you suggest).


There's a slight delay beween the focus on the target and the appearance of the amaterasu, but it doesn't travel.


> It doesn't appear right on the target like Kamui does. If it did, it wouldn't have been homing in on Sasuke and chasing after him.


It wasn't homing in on Sasuke, it was being re-spawned due to change of focal point.


> If it appears like it just spawns on the target, it's because Kishimoto couldn't be bothered drawing the panels.


It doesn't appear that they travel from the panels, it appears that there's a slight delay due to needed focus on the target, and the manga and the DB state it appears on the target. If the flames did travel where do they appear from? Right in front of the user's eye and move towards the target? Has there ever been a panel where that was illustrated?

What would be he point of Amaterasu if it could travel anyway? it would be just like any other Katon (practically).


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 28, 2018)

I don't think either one is that much further than the other, outside of their respective reputation (e.g. Kakashi being a better ninjutsu user and Itachi being a better genjutsu user). If we go by portrayal, Kakashi fought far tougher opponents than Itachi did throughout the manga and that's due to more panel time for Kakashi. Prior to the DMS power-up, Kakashi fought Rin'negan Obito and Itachi fought Senjutsu Kabuto, for what it is worth they were shown to be equals. As for a fight between the two of them, it can go either way, I'd like to think if Kakashi can see thru Obito's genjutsu, he shouldn't have a problem against anything bar Tsukuyomi but likely he'll avoid making eye contact all together.


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## Marvel (Mar 28, 2018)

Shark said:


> Zetsu and the DB say it spawns on the target.
> 
> It didn't travel, the sequence is highlighting the focus of Sasuke's eyesight. If it was travelling we would have seen the flames drawn on the panels.
> 
> ...


The point of it would be a flame that doesn’t stop burning until the object is ashes


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## sabre320 (Mar 28, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Not really. Without Kamui, Kakashi is nearly defeated by Kakuzu. Furthermore, Wind Arc Naruto, who has to be saved by Yamato as soon he tries to attack Kakuzu, is still considered to be stronger than this version of Kakashi.
> 
> Even during the Pein Arc, Kakashi finds Jiraiya's power to be _significantly_ above his own. Jiraiya doesn't consider him strong enough to be a Hokage at that point either.
> 
> ...



Now thats exaggerating quite a bit...Kakuzu is solidly midkage and handling both him and hidan alone is very impressive...raikage are nothing without their armour ,sasuke would be barely anything without his ms or sussano, and tobirama would be asolutely lowkage without his hirashin....his shunshin isnt blitzing midkages as in his own words is shunshin pales infront of minatos, its still very impressive probably faster then ems madaras but his ninjutsu is lacking badly placing him on the same tier as kakashi without kamui... oonoki with his limited stamina and bad back would be introuble against most midkages same as kakashi..we have several examples
Also u seem to forget that wind arc kakashi who has much weaker feats in speed,reactions,stamina and taijutsu was handling both hidan and kakuzu alone...

While an assault from rinnegan and sharingan enhanced v2 jinchuriki would spell doom for most low to midkage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Marvel (Mar 28, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Now thats exaggerating quite a bit...raikage would be nothing without their raiton armour , ms sasuke would be barely anything without his ms or sussano, and tobirama would be asolutely lowkage without his hirashin....his shunshin isnt blitzing midkages and his ninjutsu is lacking badly placing him on the same tier as kakashi without kamui... oonoki with his limited stamina and bad back would be introuble against most midkages same as kakashi..we have several examples

Reactions: Like 1


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## Marvel (Mar 28, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Not really. Without Kamui, Kakashi is nearly defeated by Kakuzu. Furthermore, Wind Arc Naruto, who has to be saved by Yamato as soon he tries to attack Kakuzu, is still considered to be stronger than this version of Kakashi.



Thats Wind Arc Kakashi who is way weaker than his War Arc Counterpart and dosent have the speed feats nor Raikiri Cabke and Raikiri hound jutsu which shoot him up a lot in power.

Also Wind Arc Naruto would get destroyed in Afghanistan by Wind Arc Kakashi and that statement was referring to Naruto’s skill of adding a chakra nature to rasengan whjhc not even Kakashi could do and Minato couldn’t either.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> Even during the Pein Arc, Kakashi finds Jiraiya's power to be _significantly_ above his own. Jiraiya doesn't consider him strong enough to be a Hokage at that point either.



That’s a translation error.



Godaime Tsunade said:


> At best, Kakashi without Kamui is a Low Kage Tier shinobi, and not a very powerful one at that.



Clone feints,Speed rivaling Gated Gai,Raikiri,Rakiri Cable,Rakiri Hound,MS Genjutsu etc.

He is not Low Kage..Low Kage’s can’t fight V2 Jin in CQC and match Rinne Obito in genjutsu and make Pain himself take precaution

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Hasan (Mar 28, 2018)

From where are people are getting this Itachi's superior portrayal? I understand Kishimoto's endless attempts at ennobling the sacrifice that he made, but superior skill — really? Highlighting Kakashi's prowess has been the cornerstone of this series - its longest running tradition. I don't think that there's any other character who was – so consistently – praised for his skill as Kakashi was.

_"The jinchūriki isn't the problem... Kakashi is... I never thought that there was someone who uses dōjutsu on Itachi's level..." — *Deidara*_​
That's just one from early on in the series. Literally every character who has observed Kakashi has praised his exceptional ability.

_"A Sharingan-reliant Raikiri... You have mastered that left eye of yours... You even unlocked the Mangekyō..." — *Obito*_
_"It tore your arm... It appears that they have someone with a good eye over there..." — *Madara*_​
Make no mistake, I don't think that Itachi's a slouch. Kakashi's ability is self-evident through later stages in the manga that it hardly requires spelling out that he's better than such and such character. We can all argue over what his actual ability really is - but the idea that his portrayal is _inferior_ doesn't hold up. His skill was compared to Itachi's when he demonstrated Mangekyō for the first time...  And even the "great" Fourth Hokage stood humbled next to him.

C'mon, people.



sabre320 said:


> *Separating kamui is unfair and disengineous....its always downplay with kakashi as if kamui and him are separate*, it is his technique and he is extremely skilled and deadly with it by the end arc[interrupting summoning midway and warping bm naruto] hell why not separate madara from sussano?


I have wondered the same thing...

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Kisame (Mar 29, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> The point of it would be a flame that doesn’t stop burning until the object is ashes


Any Katon that lands on the opponent would also burn them to death. Practically speaking getting directy hit with a Katon or Amaterasu yields the same result.


Hasan said:


> From where are people are getting this Itachi's superior portrayal?


Through power-scaling. For instance in part I, when Kakashi faced off against Orochimaru
​
But when Orochimaru himself faced off against Itachi
​Seems like a big gap.

Now you have to convince the other side that Kakashi throughout part II was able to overcome both those gaps, which - as far as portrayal is concerned - were pretty big,


> I understand Kishimoto's endless attempts at ennobling the sacrifice that he made, but superior skill — really? Highlighting Kakashi's prowess has been the cornerstone of this series - its longest running tradition. I don't think that there's any other character who was – so consistently – praised for his skill as Kakashi was.
> 
> _"The jinchūriki isn't the problem... Kakashi is... I never thought that there was someone who uses dōjutsu on Itachi's level..." — *Deidara*_​
> That's just one from early on in the series. Literally every character who has observed Kakashi has praised his exceptional ability.
> ...


You're really discounting Itachi, Kishimoto made very clear attempts to distinguish Itachi's skill level, a lot of them from Kakashi-san himself.


> I have wondered the same thing...


The point people are making is that Kakashi's Kamui does not match his portrayal. It's as if Kishimoto is conveniently using it in ways that would make Kakashi stronger than anyone, even though that's not where Kakashi's placement is.

They're not simply discrediting him.


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## Marvel (Mar 29, 2018)

Shark said:


> Any Katon that lands on the opponent would also burn them to death. Practically speaking getting directy hit with a Katon or Amaterasu yields the same result.
> 
> Through power-scaling. For instance in part I, when Kakashi faced off against Orochimaru
> ​
> ...



Kakashi overcame these gaps from 3 years of training and being motivated by his comrades to keep on going
Aswell as Making promises to his self like when he said he was gonna use 1000 jutsu after fighting Edo Zabuza he magically started kicking a lot of ass bassicaly high motivated 

Or when he did good against the Paths but still had a panic attack when he thinks of Jirayia finding 6 of them.


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

Levi Ackerman said:


> Kakashi overcame these gaps from 3 years of training and being motivated by his comrades to keep on going
> Aswell as Making promises to his self like when he said he was gonna use 1000 jutsu after fighting Edo Zabuza he magically started kicking a lot of ass bassicaly high motivated
> 
> Or when he did good against the Paths but still had a panic attack when he thinks of Jirayia finding 6 of them.


Well, Itachi is at the very least Jiraiya's equal and Kakashi was not comparing himself with Jiraiya.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> Kakashi also isn't smarter, Kishi portrayed Itachi as the person who guided Naruto and Bee to figure out how to beat Nagato.


The only strategy that went into stopping CT was "hit the black ball" Thats some Dbz level logic their friend.

Besides technically it was Kakashi who guided Naruto and Guy to figure out how to beat Obito, not to mention leading an entire army division.


Shark said:


> "At 7 he had wisdom of Hokage"
> 
> "Every jutsu has a weakness"


Kakashi still has better tactical feats on display. While you could chalk that up to screen time, Kakashi's intellectual prowess still has received far more praise on panel.

-*Obito Uchiha*

*Itachi Uchiha*

And last but not least.
-*God of Shinobi*

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> The only strategy that went into stopping CT was "hit the black ball" Thats some Dbz level logic their friend.
> 
> Besides technically it was Kakashi who guided Naruto and Lee to figure out how to beat Obito, not to mention leading an entire army division.
> 
> ...


Interpreting intelligence from feats is difficult, you yourself don't think the CT feat is impressive when I brought it up to showcase that Kishimoto intended to have Itachi outshine both Naruto and Bee simultaneously and be their daddy.

Itachi was weaker than Nagato (and likely Naruto) in that encounter, meaning it was his intelligence/leadership etc that allowed him to take over the team of Bee and Naruto to overcome Nagato.

You may not think the feat is impressive in and of itself but the portrayal there is clear.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> Interpreting intelligence from feats is difficult, you yourself don't think the CT feat is impressive when I brought it up to showcase that Kishimoto intended to have Itachi outshine both Naruto and Bee simultaneously and be their daddy.
> 
> Itachi was weaker than Nagato (and likely Naruto) in that encounter, meaning it was his intelligence/leadership etc that allowed him to take over the team of Bee and Naruto to overcome Nagato.
> 
> You may not think the feat is impressive in and of itself but the portrayal there is clear.


Even if we ignore the technical application of Itachi's intellectual feats and just focus on portrayal, Kakashi still beats him in that regard based on tactical feats, team leading skills and frequent praise for his intellectual prowess throughout the manga.


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Even if we ignore the technical application of Itachi's intellectual feats and just focus on portrayal, Kakashi still beats him in that regard based on tactical feats, team leading skills and frequent praise for his intellectual prowess throughout the manga.


Kakashi may get praised for his intellect more because he has to rely on it more than Itachi, since Itachi never had to outsmart his opponents due to him being nearly always superior. The one time his opponent was superior, he quickly shut him down (figured out his jutsu' weakness, blinded his shared vision etc). Naruto and Bee were having trouble with the shared vision, the cerberus and Chibaku Tensei and Itachi got rid of that in the span of one chapter. Whenever the two faced off directly, their tactical feats were around the same level.

Itachi never had a team for him to lead like Kakashi, but the one time he did he was portrayed as a very intelligent, level-headed and capable leader.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> Kakashi may get praised for his intellect more because he has to rely on it more than Itachi, since Itachi never had to outsmart his opponents due to him being nearly always superior. The one time his opponent was superior, he quickly shut him down (figured out his jutsu' weakness, blinded his shared vision etc). Naruto and Bee were having trouble with the shared vision, the cerberus and Chibaku Tensei and Itachi got rid of that in the span of one chapter. Whenever the two faced off directly, their tactical feats were around the same level.
> 
> Itachi never had a team for him to lead like Kakashi, but the one time he did he was portrayed as a very intelligent, level-headed and capable leader.


I agree that Itachi has top tier intelligence. I simply believe that Kakashi feats makes it easier to argue in favor of him formulating a winning strategy in a hypothetical match IMO. I guess I can concede that their analytical/strategic prowess  are on similar footing based on portrayal(a word this forum has made me hate) if nothing else.


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> I agree that Itachi has top tier intelligence. I simply believe that Kakashi feats makes it easier to argue in favor of him formulating a winning strategy in a hypothetical match IMO. I guess I can concede that their analytical/strategic prowess  are on similar footing based on portrayal(a word this forum has made me hate) if nothing else.


Kakashi needs his intelligence more, Itachi doesn't because he's stronger.

When Itachi was outmatched in strength (Nagato and Kabuto) he used his intelligence to win.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Mar 30, 2018)

Kakashi has a chance. He lost first time because he had little knowledge and even little counter to Mangekyou. The second time he fared better. Way better in fact more than Itachi's expectations and he couldn't use Kamui properly too. If he used his smarts he can pull it off. He's at least as fast as base Guy in speed so Itachi's slow KO attacks will have a hard time getting him. Kakashi probably knows more jutsu than Itachi and maybe better stamina. 
Not gonna be walk over for Itachi.


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> He lost first time because he had little knowledge and even little counter to Mangekyou. The second time he fared better. Way better in fact more than Itachi's expectations and he couldn't use Kamui properly too. If he used his smarts he can pull it off. He's at least as fast as base Guy in speed so Itachi's slow KO attacks will have a hard time getting him. Kakashi probably knows more jutsu than Itachi and maybe better stamina.
> Not gonna be walk over for Itachi.


The second time Itachi couldn't use the Mangekyo and Kakashi had Naruto's help. His smarts won't help him overcome Itachi because he's not even smarter than his opponent here.

Itachi is faster than Kakashi and has the same rating as base Gai with better feats. Even against Kakashi Itachi has better feats.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Mar 30, 2018)

You are mistaken. Itachi has fast reaction speed. He is no way faster than base guy at movement speed. And Kakashi battled and Stalemate obito who is a better Sharingan user than Itachi.
And about Smarts.. Naruto overcame Zabuza and Neji on his own and that is Naruto. Kakashi has more experience battling. Even with all the insane speed of his jutsu Kakashi was still able to figure it out when they fought. Itachi didn't use Mangekyou not because he couldn't. But because in that situation Kakashi already had plans if he did use it and with the limited Chakra he had it would do more damage than good.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 30, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> You are mistaken. Itachi has fast reaction speed. He is no way faster than base guy at movement speed. And Kakashi battled and Stalemate obito who is a better Sharingan user than Itachi.


Obito let Kakashi pierce his heart on purpose and all their battle was a play invented by Obito so that he can get rid of Madara's seal.
Furthermore, Base Guy never actually showed an impressive level of speed.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> Kakashi needs his intelligence more, Itachi doesn't because he's stronger.


Still doesn't change the fact that the feats that Kakashi has displayed supersedes what Itachi has showcased on panel. I understand that Itachi's stronger techs means he doesn't have to be as meticulous as Kakashi does in engagements, but when looking at both characters analytical skills and how they apply strategy in a fight, I can *only *reasonably compare feats and Kakashi edges out in that regard.

Besides in this fight both of them have one shot techs. So it really boils down to who is caught of guard first.


Shark said:


> When Itachi was outmatched in strength (Nagato and Kabuto) he used his intelligence to win.


If you look at the outcome of those fight through the lens of portrayal then Itachi's feats in those fights are stellar, but in reality all that occurred was Itachi hitting a black ball (Nagato) and using ridiculous one-shot hax out of nowhere (Kabuto). The way he broke free of Kabuto's Genjutsu was smart thinking though.

Compared to feats like Kakashi discerning Deva Paths abilities, the five second interval and formulating an strategy to beat him which required careful analysis and on the fly planning, on paper Kakashi just seems smarter.

As a series Naruto's showcasing of intelligence borders on ridiculousness with simplistic actions or observations being treated as noteworthy, but feats like the one above seem genuinely impressive. Without "portrayal" Itachi simply doesn't stack up.

I want to preface fact that I have a hard time judged stats based on portrayal. I find that calculating prestige tends to muddy the whole point of debating. In most other forums i've been on i'm either discussing characters from different verses (so portrayal is meaningless) or it simply doesn't come up on other battle forums even with characters from the same verse.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Mar 30, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Obito let Kakashi pierce his heart on purpose and all their battle was a play invented by Obito so that he can get rid of Madara's seal.
> Furthermore, Base Guy never actually showed an impressive level of speed.


Neither did Itachi. Base guy at least got behind Sasuke in a blink of an eye, slammed a sound Ninja through a wall in a split second.  He piggy backed Kakashi after using the sixth gate and was still faster than Lee. These feats may be mediocre to you but at least he has those, which Itachi doesn't. All we know is Itachi had good jutsu hand sign speed which Kakashi figured out and countered anyways.


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## hbcaptain (Mar 30, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Neither did Itachi. Base guy at least got behind Sasuke in a blink of an eye, slammed a sound Ninja through a wall in a split second


Anyone who has high Jonin level and his mother can repliacte this kind of feats, you're talking about someone who is just passing his first Chunin exam,...



PradyumnaR said:


> and was still faster than Lee.


Every High Jonin who is just slightly specialized in CQC and his mother is faster and more skilled than CE Lee even when he uses gates



> He piggy backed Kakashi after using the sixth gate


He barely matched 3T Kakashi's skill in CQC whilst using the 6th Gate as shown against the V2 Jins.

Sorry, but all these feats are easily replicated by someone who could handle Acrobat, fight KCM Naruto in CQC without controling his own moves and reacting to both KCM Naruto and Bee's assaults at the same time.
Not to mention he was easily reacting and keeping up with Sasuke's speed whilst being sick, the same Sasuke who's more reflexive and skilled in CQC than V1 Ei (the latter only has far better durability and strengh).

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Still doesn't change the fact that the feats that Kakashi has displayed supersedes what Itachi has showcased on panel. I understand that Itachi's stronger techs means he doesn't have to be as meticulous as Kakashi does in engagements, but when looking at both characters analytical skills and how they apply strategy in a fight, I can *only *reasonably compare feats and Kakashi edges out in that regard.
> 
> Besides in this fight both of them have one shot techs. So it really boils down to who is caught of guard first.
> 
> ...


My point is that portrayal helps us _predict_ the results here. Itachi's portrayal is up there with Kakashi in terms of intelligence so there is no reason why he should be outsmarted. If this fight happened in the manga Kakashi won't outsmart Itachi because Kishimoto has portrayed them as near equals in that regard.

For example, if there was a character who was stated to be "the smartest and most analytical and tactical fighter in the naruto world" and was featless would you still say Kakashi would outsmart him becasue Kakashi "has better display"? No you won't because the other characters portrayal tells us _he won't be outsmarted_.

You may think all Itachi did was "hit a black ball" but the author *intended *to showcase that as a moment of leadership, brilliant tactical analysis, and a moment where the team overcame a significant hurdle. The _execution_ might be unimpressive, but the author clearly wanted to portray Itachi as some genius in that instance.

As for the Izanami incident, Itachi had to put Kabuto through a loop first, which was quite impressive.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Mar 30, 2018)

hbcaptain said:


> Anyone who has high Jonin level and his mother can repliacte this kind of feats, you're talking about someone who is just passing his first Chunin exam,...
> 
> Yet we only see it with Might guy to reiterate his insane speed levels. Neither Itachi with his Sharingan or Kisame saw him coming when he kicked Kisame away from Kakashi. If they did, they would have done something.
> 
> ...



Statement 1 : Yet we only see it with Might guy to reiterate his insane speed levels. Neither Itachi with his Sharingan or Kisame saw him coming when he kicked Kisame away from Kakashi. If they did, they would have done something.
Statement 2 : And based on what do you say this ? Yet kakshi had to use his Sharingan to keep track of Lee once he opened his 3rd gate. Any evidence that every jonin who specializes CQC is faster than Gated lee ? Neji is jonin who specializes CQC later...In your view he must be faster than gated Lee. 
Statement 3 : Again...you speak as if that is the limit of the sixth gate. Kakashi and Guy had a plan to stick close to each other. And i was talking about him outracing Lee while carrying Kakashi even after going six gates don't take it out of context. Infact Guy is so fast in Sixth gate he causes the air to catch fire via friction. Enough said.

And got hit by the rigged Shuriken while easily keeping up with him ?
Itachi engaged Naruto and failed to land a single hit . Moreover Naruto was talking. And that wasn't again movement speed. It was reaction speed which I never denied.


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> My point is that portrayal helps us _predict_ the results here. Itachi's portrayal is up there with Kakashi in terms of intelligence so there is no reason why he should be outsmarted. If this fight happened in the manga Kakashi won't outsmart Itachi because Kishimoto has portrayed them as near equals in that regard.


It not a question of "why he should be outsmarted" but who will outsmart who. Both characters are comparable in base stats and both have hax oneshot techs. The one who catches the other off guard is _undoubtedly _the winner of this match. If both characters are "portrayed" as having equal intellectual prowess then the only edge I can use to determine who outpaces who is *feats *and *statements *and Kakashi shines in that regard. 


Shark said:


> For example, if there was a character who was stated to be "the smartest and most analytical and tactical fighter in the naruto world" and was featless would you still say Kakashi would outsmart him becasue Kakashi "has better display"? No you won't because the other characters portrayal tells us _he won't be outsmarted_.


I wouldn't argue against this hypothetical character, but only because he/she has* 100% factual statements that can't be refuted*, where as Itachi being Kakashi's intellectual peer is only based are reasonable speculation. While I agree that they're intellectual peers based on "portrayal", Kakashi's better strategic feats combined with his more versatile clone game and Kamui's faster speed feat compared to Amaterasu gives me the impression that he'll catch Itachi off guard first.


Shark said:


> You may think all Itachi did was "hit a black ball" but the author *intended *to showcase that as a moment of leadership, brilliant tactical analysis, and a moment where the team overcame a significant hurdle. The _execution_ might be unimpressive, but the author clearly wanted to portray Itachi as some genius in that instance.


Ok Itachi's a genius, what now? We can't just state that their intellectual peers so *nobody wins.* Fortunately for Kakashi better feats break the tie.


Shark said:


> As for the Izanami incident, Itachi had to put Kabuto through a loop first, which was quite impressive.


His mental memory to use the tech is impressive I guess, but the application of Izanami seems pretty simple.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> It not a question of "why he should be outsmarted" but who will outsmart who. Both characters are comparable in base stats and both have hax oneshot techs. The one who catches the other off guard is _undoubtedly _the winner of this match. If both characters are "portrayed" as having equal intellectual prowess then the only edge I can use to determine who outpaces who is *feats *and *statements *and Kakashi shines in that regard.
> I wouldn't argue against this hypothetical character, but only because he/she has* 100% factual statements that can't be refuted*, where as Itachi being Kakashi's intellectual peer is only based are reasonable speculation. While I agree that they're intellectual peers based on "portrayal", Kakashi's better strategic feats combined with his more versatile clone game and Kamui's faster speed feat compared to Amaterasu gives me the impression that he'll catch Itachi off guard first.
> 
> Ok Itachi's a genius, what now? We can't just state that their intellectual peers so *nobody wins.* Fortunately for Kakashi better feats break the tie.
> ...


I think you're still missing my point.

If Kakashi will outsmart Itachi because he has better feats then that means Itachi's portrayal is _below_ Kakashi.

If their portrayal in intelligence is equal then that means no one is likely to outsmart the other.

You keep agreeing "they have equal portrayal" but then say "Kakashi has better feats" which doesn't add up.

I explained why Kakashi's "better feats" don't necessarily mean he has better portrayal because of Itachi's circumstances.

If you can understand this point we can move forward.


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## sabre320 (Mar 30, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Other way around hun
> 
> 
> OT:
> ...



Kakashi was keeping up with obitos genjutsu which put a perfect jinchuriki in genjutsu something superior to itachis feats with tsukyomi so he breaks it through his won mankegyo, his tactical,feint and intelligence feats are superior and recieved backing from hagoromo as godly in calibre..in a fight between these two it will come down to feints and trickery and kakashi has feats on panel where he outdoes Itachi, both have one shot techniques but kakashis is superior and has better feats to back him landing his.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 30, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> Kakashi was keeping up with obitos genjutsu which put a perfect jinchuriki in genjutsu something superior to itachis feats with tsukyomi


Kakashi by virtue of having the sharingan alone can resist any regular genjutsu even MS ones, him resisting Obito's genjutsu mean's absolutely nothing when it comes to actually resisting a unique genjusu such as Tsukuyomi. He lacks the pre-requisites that were outright stated to be needed to break the genjutsu, he gets one shot if it lands.

Last but not least Naruto told Killer bee, a *perfect jin* he'd get one shot by Tsukuyomi if it lands



sabre320 said:


> these two it will come down to feints and trickery and kakashi has feats on panel where he outdoes Itachi


Where? Itachi was feinting sharingan and Sennin Mode users in direct combat that eclipses all of Kakashi's feats


sabre320 said:


> both have one shot techniques but kakashis is superior and has better feats to back him landing his.


I disagree. Itachi has superior feinting feats, superior methods of distractions, but also superior jutsu execution to lean


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## NamesClassified (Mar 30, 2018)

Shark said:


> If Kakashi will outsmart Itachi because he has better feats then that means Itachi's portrayal is _below_ Kakashi.
> 
> If their portrayal in intelligence is equal then that means no one is likely to outsmart the other.


The issue with your statement is that qualifying prestige/portrayal to determine a winner is *impossible *if both parties are portrayed as equals.

Feats allows us dictate superiority under these circumstances.


Shark said:


> You keep agreeing "they have equal portrayal" but then say "Kakashi has better feats" which doesn't add up.


This is me simply trying my best to conform to the ideals of this battle forum. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't give a crap about portrayal when discussing hypothetical battles unless a character is 100 % stated to be superior. Feats should always supersede prestige on a battle forum IMO, especially with opponents of similar prowess.


Shark said:


> I explained why Kakashi's "better feats" don't necessarily mean he has better portrayal because of Itachi's circumstances.


So how exactly can we dictate who superior? I've debated plenty of characters with equal prowess on other sites and feats have always been the deal breaker when determining the victor. The notion that Itachi can't be outsmarted based on portrayal renders discussion about who wins this fight moot, because this battle _hinges _on who outsmarts who.


Shark said:


> If you can understand this point we can move forward.


By moving forward I assume you mean me actually discussing how I think the fight plays out. The beginning of the engagement will largely consist of clone feints and mid range skirmishes, as both characters will want to be cautious. While kakashi may have slower feint feats then Itachi, his ability to borrow underground means he's less likely to be out in the open for a GG to happen to him. Kakashi's higher stamina means he might be to keep the clone game up longer.

Even with Itachi numerous hax, none of them operate on the same level of speed as Kamui. With it he has:

-

-.

-

-And lets not forget the time when Right after being teleported by Flying Rajin(an instantaneous move), he was

People can argue whether Kakashi will get line of sight first, but the notation that Amaterasu or Tsukuyomi will operate on the same speed as Kamui is crazy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Mar 30, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> The issue with your statement is that qualifying prestige/portrayal to determine a winner is *impossible *if both parties are portrayed as equals.


I'm not talking about a *winner *here, I'm talking about who will outsmart the other.

If you read my original post (the one you quoted) I said that Kamui and Amaterasu are practically the same thing here and on top of that Itachi has Tsukiyomi and Susano'o so he already has the edge in terms of winning tools.

Even if you believe that Kakashi and Itachi are 50/50 in their abilities (due to Kamui) and one of them has to outsmart the other in order to win, the fact that they're equal in that regards means no one has the clear advantage.


> Feats allows us dictate superiority under these circumstances.


It seems to me you're refusing to accept that there is such a thing as stalemate or 50/50 chance.


> This is me simply trying my best to conform to the ideals of this battle forum. Under normal circumstances I wouldn't give a crap about portrayal when discussing hypothetical battles unless a character is 100 % stated to be superior. Feats should always supersede prestige on a battle forum IMO, especially with opponents of similar prowess.


What you're missing here is that "portrayal" doesn't necessarily go against "feats". Characters don't get to be put in every single situation possible so we _have _to assume who comes out on top. We do that by looking at their portrayals in whatever field we are comparing be it be intelligence, physical ability, ninjutsu etc.

Kakashi has never faced against Shikamaru w/prep, does that mean "Kakashi lacks the feats to not fall for Shikamaru"? No, we know from his portrayal that he is smart enough to figure a way out of it even if we disregard his other abilities.

Portrayal is essential in a battledome hypothetical because most these characters are dealing with things they never dealt with before in the actual manga.


> So how exactly can we dictate who superior? I've debated plenty of characters with equal prowess on other sites and feats have always been the deal breaker when determining the victor. The notion that Itachi can't be outsmarted based on portrayal renders discussion about who wins this fight moot, because this battle _hinges _on who outsmarts who.


1. The battle does not necessarily hinge on who outsmarts who, because I believe Itachi is superior in terms of abilities.
2. Even if the battle strictly depended on who outsmarted who, there is such a thing as _50/50 chance_ where no character is clearly superior to the other and they are more or less equals. There _doesn't_ have to be a winner.


> By moving forward I assume you mean me actually discussing how I think the fight plays out. The beginning of the engagement will largely consist of clone feints and mid range skirmishes, as both characters will want to be cautious. While kakashi may have slower feint feats then Itachi, his ability to borrow underground means he's less likely to be out in the open for a GG to happen to him. Kakashi's higher stamina means he might be to keep the clone game up longer.


Itachi has things in CQC that give him the advantage over Kakashi:
-slightly superior speed
-doesn't have to be out of his opponent's line-of-sight to create a bunshin feint (unlike Kakashi who needs that) due to his seal speed and achieving such feat against Sasuke to his face.
-his bunchins can explode
-he can cast Tsukiyomi if Kakashi makes eye contact (game ender)
-if Kakashi avoids eye contact, he can be forced into it physically
-Kakashi can still be caught in genjutsu without eye contact
-if Kakashi is actively avoiding eye contact, he will fall to Amaterasu


> Even with Itachi numerous hax, none of them operate on the same level of speed as Kamui. With it he has:
> 
> -
> 
> ...


Susano'o is activated mentally via thought, that means as long as Itachi is paying attention it will be Susano'o that gets Kamui'd instead. Kakashi getting into CQC means he will fall to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu; he has to choose to either look into Itachi's eyes to anticipate Amaterasu or avoid them to stay clear of Tsukiyomi - this fact alone makes Amaterasu as practical as Kamui here.

Since Itachi can create kage bunshins right in front of Kakashi, it is more likely that Kakashi will be Kamui'ng an Itachi clone rather than Itachi wasting a MS on a Kakashi clone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NamesClassified (Apr 14, 2018)

Apologies for my long ass hiatus, I've been thinking about if I should respond to my alerts taking so damn long but fuck it. i'll bump this thread.





Shark said:


> I'm not talking about a winner here, I'm talking about who will outsmart the other. If you read my original post (the one you quoted) I said that Kamui and Amaterasu are practically the same thing here and on top of that Itachi has Tsukiyomi and Susano'o so he already has the edge in terms of winning tools. Even if you believe that Kakashi and Itachi are 50/50 in their abilities (due to Kamui) and one of them has to outsmart the other in order to win, the fact that they're equal in that regards means no one has the clear advantage.



The fact that Kamui operates at faster speeds then Amaterasu means that there not basically the same thing. The notion of Itachi being Kakashi's intellectual peer is arguable, i've already showed you the more substantial degrees of praise that Kakasshi has received on top of pointing out his superior feats. 





Shark said:


> It seems to me you're refusing to accept that there is such a thing as stalemate or 50/50 chance.



Of course stalemates are possible, but I simply don't think a stalemate is happening in a battle of tactics, maybe Itachi can stalemate or even win, but I simply believe it'll have be because of his strength overriding a battle of wits.





Shark said:


> What you're missing here is that "portrayal" doesn't necessarily go against "feats". Characters don't get to be put in every single situation possible so we have to assume who comes out on top. We do that by looking at their portrayals in whatever field we are comparing be it be intelligence, physical ability, ninjutsu etc.



A debater should still have stronger  bases for their own opinion. My bases for Kakashi being more intelligent was superior on panel praise and better feats. I consider feats and hype working in tandem to be more credible than "portrayal", which seems to me like fans attempting to discern Kishimoto's opinion without sufficient evidence. This is not mentioning the fact that portrayal can get laughed at any bad match up.

For instance in a Deidara vs Tsunade engagement, plenty on this forum will argue that the Sanin's "portrayal" is on par if not outright surpassing the man. Despite this even the most trigger happy portrayal argument user have stated on this very forum that an airborne Deidara wins every time.When portrayal can be so easily dismissed in a battle, their's a problem. Since I know for a fact that some people disagree with this outcome, i'm not say its fact, just an example I site due to a strong consensus.

Since your a veteran of this forum let me ask a question, does portrayal supersede hype/feats on this battledome? And if it doesn't then shouldn't the character who has accumulated all 3 outrank the other?



Shark said:


> Kakashi has never faced against Shikamaru w/prep, does that mean "Kakashi lacks the feats to not fall for Shikamaru"? No, we know from his portrayal that he is smart enough to figure a way out of it even if we disregard his other abilities.



 I could argue for Kakashi or any uber intelligent character in the manga simply do to Shikamaru's feat with prep being lack luster IMO. But i've heard on this forum that Shikamarau's the smartest character cause "portrayal", so with his batman level prep I guess he beats everyone in the verse.




Shark said:


> Portrayal is essential in a battledome hypothetical because most these characters are dealing with things they never dealt with before in the actual manga.



 I've never needed to cite portrayal to supplement arguments for these characters, just the uber limits of their stats and abilities to compare. Factoring in things like unique skills and/or intelligence hasn't be an issue either. Only when a character is implicitly stated to be superior do I shut up about feats/hype.

I guess that if a character receives shitty screen time than assessing their abilities using portrayal makes since, but the characters in this thread have a adequate amount of screen time.



Shark said:


> 2. Even if the battle strictly depended on who outsmarted who, there is such a thing as 50/50 chance where no character is clearly superior to the other and they are more or less equals. There doesn't have to be a winner. Itachi has things in CQC that give him the advantage over Kakashi: -slightly superior speed -doesn't have to be out of his opponent's line-of-sight to create a bunshin feint (unlike Kakashi who needs that) due to his seal speed and achieving such feat against Sasuke to his face.



Sure but the fact that Kakashi can move underground means he's less likey to be in the open for a GG, and considering that he got underwater without Itachi or Kisame noticing during part 1, I see no reason why he can't go underground here. And between Mud Wall and Water Wall, Kakashi has ways to break LOS 





Shark said:


> -he can cast Tsukiyomi if Kakashi makes eye contact (game ender) -if Kakashi avoids eye contact, he can be forced into it physically



Kakashi has techs to keep a battle at least mid range. If push comes to shove, he could always Kamui himself to create distance. If Itachi bullrushes him to get Tsukiyomi, why can't Kakashi Kamui him the second Itachi closes the distance?

Also the notion that Kakashi under no circumstances can fight Itachi in closer range is slightly disingenuous, as .


Shark said:


> -his bunchins can explode


*Exploding Clones which have been reacted to by Kakashi*, whereas Kakashi has undetectable  that not even the chakra seeing Rinnegan could anticipate to offset Itachi's advantage here.


Shark said:


> -Kakashi can still be caught in genjutsu without eye contact


 Such as? What Finger GG? Nah slick that shits reserved for fodders, not for someone with mastery of the Sharigan





Shark said:


> Since Itachi can create kage bunshins right in front of Kakashi, it is more likely that Kakashi will be Kamui'ng an Itachi clone rather than Itachi wasting a MS on a Kakashi clone.




Kakashi still has an advantage of being able to maneuver underground while clone feinting. I'm not saying that it completely mitigates the speed differences in their clone feint usage, but considering he's already surprised Itachi once with an underground clone feint in part 1 I think a clone feint battle is closer then you may think.


Shark said:


> Susano'o is activated mentally via thought, that means as long as Itachi is paying attention it will be Susano'o that gets Kamui'd instead. Kakashi getting into CQC means he will fall to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu; he has to choose to either look into Itachi's eyes to anticipate Amaterasu or avoid them to stay clear of Tsukiyomi - this fact alone makes Amaterasu as practical as Kamui here.



Kamui has shown to be so  I don't see how  Sussano wouldt be protecting him from getting warped even if he's clad. Since Sussano doesn't block LOS and the form leaves mor than enough space for a Kamui portal to inter inside it, Kamui can definitely wreck shit up.



Shark said:


> Kakashi getting into CQC means he will fall to Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu; he has to choose to either look into Itachi's eyes to anticipate Amaterasu or avoid them to stay clear of Tsukiyomi - this fact alone makes Amaterasu as practical as Kamui here.



So stalemate then?

Because Kamui at least offers equal disadvantages for Itachi since just being seen at *literally any distance* by Kakashi is technically a lost for Itachi.

If the Ama/Tsk combo mitigates the undeniable advantage Kamui has in speed like you say, then that just sounds like a stalemate.

Reactions: Like 3 | Informative 2


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## Android (Apr 14, 2018)

You have to be some kind of a moron to argue that:
Long range Kamui > Tsukuyomi + Amaterasu + Susano.

Itachi stomps Kakashi. You could make a good case for 3TS Itachi giving Kakashi a major issues, Itachi using the MS would just obliterate Kakashi very easily.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 4


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## Android (Apr 14, 2018)

I just want to add that a non serious Itachi hospitalized Kakashi with a fraction of his power.

30% Itachi with no MS was still too much for Kakashi to handle.

Itachi has constantly been portrayed far above Kakashi.

Kakashi gets humiliated. Again.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 2


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## Android (Apr 14, 2018)

Did I mentioned that a 13 years old kid Itachi trashed the same Orochimaru who made Kakashi piss his pants ? 

This is just too one sided, Itachi defeats him with no shred of effort.


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## Orochimaruwantsyourbody (Apr 14, 2018)

Being a Kakashi wanker is great. 

-Get 17 different fights and skirmishes to selectively draw high end feats from when most characters get 2-5 fights.

-When someone points out that Kakashi’s strategy or Jutsu in question didn’t work, just respond with “You can’t hold Kakashi to a weaker versions standards”

-When someone points out other characters not noticing improvements, cite any Jutsu Kakashi uses for the first time on panel as “new” and proof of improvement, and then cite any high end physical feats as proof

-Rinse, repeat.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2018)

Itachi wins.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Being a Kakashi wanker is great.
> 
> -Get 17 different fights and skirmishes to selectively draw high end feats from when most characters get 2-5 fights.
> 
> ...


This is my first time reading this thread

And this is the first post in it ive seen

But this is so perfect that i just cant wait to wade through all the Kakashi fan salt in here


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## Android (Apr 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Being a Kakashi wanker is great.
> 
> -Get 17 different fights and skirmishes to selectively draw high end feats from when most characters get 2-5 fights.
> 
> ...


QFT.


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## Hasan (Apr 14, 2018)

There are _two things _consistent in all Kakashi-threads for the past few years:

1. When you have updated material, just pull out the outdated one. I used to believe, it was ridiculous that people kept bringing up the _Deidara-instance_ when Kakashi was warping Bijū at 'lightspeed' and outdoing Obito. Why not use Kakashi's pre-academy incarnation, while you're at it?
2. Misrepresent Kakashi's Kamui, when all else fails.

To quote a sage:


Hussain said:


> speak for yourself.
> To me, that was obvious as well.
> the problem, as always, some people will disagree until they are spoon-fed.



It's serious business when Hussain, of all the people, calls you out over wanting to be spoon-fed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> Being a Kakashi wanker is great.
> 
> -Get 17 different fights and skirmishes to selectively draw high end feats from when most characters get 2-5 fights.
> 
> ...



Whoa you don't have to be that salty that Kakashi got more screen time than most characters and was shown to be always improving in every showing, which he himself said.

What do you want, people to use part 1 feats?

Lets discuss why some members love citing the fact that he missed Deidara's head while Kamui'ng him when discussing WA Kakashi who was Kamui'ng much faster Objects/Ninja's like a fat kid eats candy?


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## Blu-ray (Apr 14, 2018)

Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> “You can’t hold Kakashi to a weaker versions standard"


Is this not basic logic?

Do we hold Pain Arc Naruto's Rasenshuriken to the standards of wind Arc Naruto's? Do we hold The Last Sasuke's Chidori to the standards of his part one self?

I swear it's like Kamui warped you people's brains to another dimension. There's no other explanation for taking issue with what's frankly common sense.



Orochimaruwantsyourbody said:


> When someone points out other characters not noticing improvements,


Other characters don't have to provide commentary about something self evident. It doesn't even make sense. Who's keeping tabs on Kakashi's Kamui to make any informed judgement of whether he improved or not other than Kakashi himself?

The only commentary they can give is about how good he is, and he has that from the likes of Madara.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2018)

Hasan said:


> There are _two things _consistent in all Kakashi-threads for the past few years:
> 
> 1. When you have updated material, just pull out the outdated one. I used to believe, it was ridiculous that people kept bringing up the _Deidara-instance_ when Kakashi was warping Bijū at 'lightspeed' and outdoing Obito. Why not use Kakashi's pre-academy incarnation, while you're at it?
> 2. Misrepresent Kakashi's Kamui, when all else fails.
> ...



There is no "new material" that even HINT at Kakashi surpassing itachi (except for when he got Obito's power for 2 minutes) 


Kakashi's level stayed more or less the same. You could argue for some improvement here and there, but in no way, shape, or form is he stronger than itachi. 


You are just fooling yourself, as per always.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 14, 2018)

Hussain said:


> There is no "new material" that even HINT at Kakashi surpassing itachi (except for when he got Obito's power for 2 minutes)
> 
> 
> Kakashi's level stayed more or less the same. You could argue for some improvement here and there, but in no way, shape, or form is he stronger than itachi.
> ...


War Arc Kakashi was still having trouble with Zabuza


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> War Arc Kakashi was still having trouble with Zabuza


I was going to mention it, but I knew it will make people triggered and I don't want to get myself involved in a useless debate.


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## Hasan (Apr 14, 2018)

Hussain said:


> There is no "new material" that even HINT at Kakashi surpassing itachi (except for when he got Obito's power for 2 minutes)
> 
> 
> Kakashi's level stayed more or less the same. You could argue for some improvement here and there, but in no way, shape, or form is he stronger than itachi.
> ...


My response was directed at people who were relying upon outdated (Part 1, Early Part 2) material to argue against Kakashi's case, but _eh...
_
_"The jinchūriki isn't the problem... Kakashi is... I never thought there was someone *who uses dōjutsu on Itachi's level*..." — Deidara
_​_*EDIT: *_Concession accepted. I don't believe that early Part 2 Kakashi is stronger than Itachi, but just food for thought.
_
_​

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 14, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> War Arc Kakashi was still having trouble with Zabuza



Zabuza?

Zabuza got mutilated 2 seconds after Kakashi got serious. Didn't part 1 have to hold him down to even attempt to strike with Raikiri?

Kakashi and his squad were having issues with the fact that Zabuza's mist concealed dozens of swordsmen and ninjas with troublesome 1 hit kill abilities.


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## Trojan (Apr 14, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kakashi and his squad were having issues with the fact that Zabuza's mist concealed dozens of swordsmen and ninjas with troublesome 1 hit kill abilities.


Nah, Kakashi and the others were only focusing on Zabuza alone. It's not like he was attacked by the rest of them.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 14, 2018)

Hussain said:


> Nah, Kakashi and the others were only focusing on Zabuza alone. It's not like he was attacked by the rest of them.



Yes, he was not attacked by the rest of them because they were slaughtering the rest of the squad while Hiden by the mist. Doesn't change the fact that no one would take the risk of going of playing marco polo in the mist while there were dozens of other high or Kage level ninja within it.

Lmao acting like Zabuza was the only one concealed in the mist and that's why they needed a whole squad to deal with him.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Bookworm (Apr 14, 2018)

What do you guys think? Would kakashi use Kamui off the bat or not? If not, would he base his game plan around Kamui?

There's been a few opponents where Kakashi has deemed it necessary to use Kamui right off the bat, Deidara, Tobi and Juubi.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Apr 15, 2018)

Kakashi only has a chance of winning when he has something to counter long range Genjutsu. CQC and speed latter has him beat.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 15, 2018)

LOL... Itachi didn't even beat orochimaru.. He just showed how powerful and tough is and Oro took the hint and understood it was risky and left. he didn't have his best techniques when he confronted itachi and he did have them when he met Kakashi. 
Kakashi was more than willing to tangle with Itachi and pissed his pants when he saw Oro... That should say something about your oro<itachi and oro>Kakashi so Kakashi automatically < itachi.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 15, 2018)

Trolling said:


> What do you guys think? Would kakashi use Kamui off the bat or not? If not, would he base his game plan around Kamui?
> 
> There's been a few opponents where Kakashi has deemed it necessary to use Kamui right off the bat, Deidara, Tobi and Juubi.


He did catch 30 % itachi off guard when they met again. He forced Itachi into engaging his clone and he did it without Kamui. So yeah... He might have plans apart from kamui but he probably will stick to kamui.


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## Tri (Apr 15, 2018)

Itachi probably incapacitates Kakashi with Tsukuyomi or Ama and takes the win.


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## Jackalinthebox (Apr 15, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> LOL... Itachi didn't even beat orochimaru.. He just showed how powerful and tough is and Oro took the hint and understood it was risky and left. he didn't have his best techniques when he confronted itachi and he did have them when he met Kakashi.
> Kakashi was more than willing to tangle with Itachi and pissed his pants when he saw Oro... That should say something about your oro<itachi and oro>Kakashi so Kakashi automatically < itachi.


So....basically, you think Kakashi knows Orochimaru's level of strength better than Orochimaru himself. Interesting stuff


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 15, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> So....basically, you think Kakashi knows Orochimaru's level of strength better than Orochimaru himself. Interesting stuff


Why do you waste time on me wise one... Go argue with a brick wall.


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## Bookworm (Apr 15, 2018)

About Kakashi not being scared of Itachi, while wetting his pants at Oro, Kakashi was much more scared of Itachi when he so much as mentioned his MS. He probably thought he could handle Itachi's normal genjutsu with his sharingan, but Oro on the other hand knew he couldn't handle his normal genjutsu.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 15, 2018)

But he thought he'd die even if he used his best jutsu against orochimaru. And unlike itachi, Oro didn't have to tangle with him cause unlike with Itachi, he lost nerve as soon as orochimaru said he could try.


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## Kisame (Apr 15, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> The fact that Kamui operates at faster speeds then Amaterasu means that there not basically the same thing.


The speed difference is irrelevant because Kakashi can't make anything of it anyway.


> The notion of Itachi being Kakashi's intellectual peer is arguable, i've already showed you the more substantial degrees of praise that Kakasshi has received on top of pointing out his superior feats.


Kakashi has more feats because he needs them more, Itachi doesn't because his strength usually is enough. Whenever Itachi's intelligence/tactics needed to shine, they did. So I think they're pretty close. When Itachi and Kakashi faced in part I their tactics were pretty even until Kakashi was eventually overpowered (Tsukiyomi). When they faced in part II and Itachi was restricted, Kakashi only managed to pull through because of back-up. So from direct confrontation Kakashi doesn't beat him either.


> Of course stalemates are possible, but I simply don't think a stalemate is happening in a battle of tactics, maybe Itachi can stalemate or even win, but I simply believe it'll have be because of his strength overriding a battle of wits.


What I'm basically saying is we can't lean towards one or the other to have the upper hand in a battle of wits. i.e "Kakashi will outsmart Itachi" is just as credible as "Itachi will outsmart Kakashi".


> A debater should still have stronger  bases for their own opinion.


Portrayal is a very strong argument for a debater, _especially when the two things being debated have not directly been compared by the manga (i.e the manga telling us straight up "Kakashi/Itachi is smarter than the other)._


> My bases for Kakashi being more intelligent was superior on panel praise and better feats.


He doesn't have better feats, he has more feats. This is supported by him not outsmarting Itachi.


> I consider feats and hype working in tandem to be more credible than "portrayal", which seems to me like fans attempting to discern Kishimoto's opinion without sufficient evidence.


If there really is no sufficient evidence then sure, but where do you see that in my argument?


> This is not mentioning the fact that portrayal can get laughed at any bad match up.


Not when it comes to deciding who's smarter. Intelligence for all characters is either you're smarter or not, there's no _"my intelligence and yours are on the same level, but my intelligence is a bad match-up for yours so I'm smarter"._


> For instance in a Deidara vs Tsunade engagement, plenty on this forum will argue that the Sanin's "portrayal" is on par if not outright surpassing the man. Despite this even the most trigger happy portrayal argument user have stated on this very forum that an airborne Deidara wins every time.When portrayal can be so easily dismissed in a battle, their's a problem. Since I know for a fact that some people disagree with this outcome, i'm not say its fact, just an example I site due to a strong consensus.


A bad match-up due to different abilities is not like comparing intelligence, see above.


> Since your a veteran of this forum let me ask a question, does portrayal supersede hype/feats on this battledome? And if it doesn't then shouldn't the character who has accumulated all 3 outrank the other?


Hype/feats fall into portrayal. i.e Itachi was portrayed as stronger than Orochimaru because: 1. statements from characters 2. feats of Itachi beating Orochimaru 3. Itachi's hype from other characters surpassing that of Orochimaru's.

Kakashi has more feats, but those feats aren't necessarily better than Itachi's few ones.


> I could argue for Kakashi or any uber intelligent character in the manga simply do to Shikamaru's feat with prep being lack luster IMO. But i've heard on this forum that Shikamarau's the smartest character cause "portrayal", so with his batman level prep I guess he beats everyone in the verse.


But again how effective your tactics are depends on your actual power level, Shikamaru doesn't have the jutsu or ability to challenge stronger opponents, that's why he needs massive prep to compensate. Kakashi's Raiton bunshin + Raikiri feint is intelligent but what if Kakashi didn't actually have Raiton bunshin or Raikiri in the first place? He's still smart just not with enough tools to make that difference.

The point I was trying to get at is that when characters have never faced each other (i.e we have no direct comparison of their skills) portrayal helps guide us to make that decision. The same if we're deciding who's gonna outsmart the other or who's more intelligent.

We can say "Kakashi won't fall for Shikamaru's tricks" because Kakashi has been portrayed as very smart and has been in tougher situations by comparison where his intellect shined etc.


> I guess that if a character receives shitty screen time than assessing their abilities using portrayal makes since, but the characters in this thread have a adequate amount of screen time.


But we're discussing if either of them is more intelligent than the other, who was portrayed to be smarter including fights other than the ones they had with each other is very relevant.


> Sure but the fact that Kakashi can move underground means he's less likey to be in the open for a GG, and considering that he got underwater without Itachi or Kisame noticing during part 1, I see no reason why he can't go underground here. And between Mud Wall and Water Wall, Kakashi has ways to break LOS


But he's still using jutsu just to break LOS just so he can bunshin feint, the fact that Itachi doesn't need jutsu or LOS for bunshins means he has the advantage.


> Kakashi has techs to keep a battle at least mid range.


If he keeps the battle at mid-range it's because he's *disadvantaged *at close range, which is my point.


> If push comes to shove, he could always Kamui himself to create distance.


Sure but again it means he's disadvantaged if he's using Kamui just to avoid Itachi getting close. That's chakra being wasted just because Itachi is closing in.


> If Itachi bullrushes him to get Tsukiyomi, why can't Kakashi Kamui him the second Itachi closes the distance?


1. He might just waste Kamui on a clone
2. Itachi doesn't just bullrush head on for Tsukiyomi as that's not how he usually fights anyway, whenever they're eyes are meeting Kakashi is liable to Tsukiyomi.
3. If Kakashi gets in close quarters he risks being physically forced into Tsukiyomi.

Also, why would you assume Kakashi will Kamui a charging Itachi, but Itachi will not Amaterasu a charging Kakashi?


> Also the notion that Kakashi under no circumstances can fight Itachi in closer range is slightly disingenuous, as .


That Itachi couldn't use MS. And had already captured another character in genjutsu (Naruto).


> Exploding Clones which have been reacted to by Kakashi


Everything they did in that fight pretty much got seen through by the other one though.


> whereas Kakashi has undetectable  that not even the chakra seeing Rinnegan could anticipate to offset Itachi's advantage here.


Kakashi's Raiton clones are as undetectable as any of his other clones, Itachi was doing well against those in their first encounter. What Deva path is able or not able to do is not relevant when he have Itachi himself.


> Such as? What Finger GG? Nah slick that shits reserved for fodders, not for someone with mastery of the Sharigan


The fact that he can be caught in genjutsu at any moment is what I'm trying to get at.



> Kakashi still has an advantage of being able to maneuver underground while clone feinting. I'm not saying that it completely mitigates the speed differences in their clone feint usage, but considering he's already surprised Itachi once with an underground clone feint in part 1 I think a clone feint battle is closer then you may think.


I think being able to feint your opponent right in front of their eyes is a bigger advantage than underground manoeuvring.

And all that underwater clone achieved was escape Itachi's own clone feint/exploding bunshin.


> Kamui has shown to be so  I don't see how  Sussano wouldt be protecting him from getting warped even if he's clad. Since Sussano doesn't block LOS and the form leaves mor than enough space for a Kamui portal to inter inside it, Kamui can definitely wreck shit up.


Umm, that's Obito's Kamui. His warping isn't based on line of sight like Kakashi...

If you put a door in front of Obito he can warp and appear behind it. Kakashi can't warp a rock that's behind the barrier because the door is in the way.


> Because Kamui at least offers equal disadvantages for Itachi since just being seen at *literally any distance* by Kakashi is technically a lost for Itachi.


Amaterasu can be used at long range too.


> If the Ama/Tsk combo mitigates the undeniable advantage Kamui has in speed like you say, then that just sounds like a stalemate.


I think Itachi has the advantage because he has Susano'o to block LOS, Tsukiyomi when eye contact is made, Amaterasu at a distance or in close range or when Kakashi is avoiding eye contact and overall comparable intelligence, bunshin feints and superior speed and execution.


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## Bookworm (Apr 15, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> But he thought he'd die even if he used his best jutsu against orochimaru. And unlike itachi, Oro didn't have to tangle with him cause unlike with Itachi, he lost nerve as soon as orochimaru said he could try.


Oro used killing intent to simulate Kakashi's death. If Itachi used genjutsu: sharingan on Kakashi who could of potentially ended the battle.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Apr 16, 2018)

@Shark

The big difference between Kamui and Amaterasu, besides the fact that Kakashi's Kamui is a like a swiss army knife with multiple functions such as offensive warping, defensive warping, self warping, and warping objects and shooting them back at the opponent(Lol at Itachi getting Amaterasu'd with his own Amaterasu) is the execution speed.

Take all of Kamui's high end feats and Amaterasu's, or hell take all of their feats and average them and it's pretty clear Kamui would win on a head to head battle even if it was used after Amaterasu.

Amaterasu has always had one dead giveaway, something Kamui only exhibited once, after extreme over usage and after it was used, not before unlike Amaterasu.


The fact that Kakashi beat Tobi at his own Kamui speed game says a lot too.

I do agree that they are pretty even tactically so arguing for either one is fair in my book.

Susanoo wouldn't be an issue in my book. Not only is it small enough to be targeted alongside the user inside of it, but it also has a flaw, which Kakashi can and will exploit.

That flaw is the unprotected bottom, which led to Gaara exploiting it by pulling Madara out with the sand at his feet. A Raiton clone could easily change the game when he surprises Itachi with a Raikiri Kunai or even if Itachi injures it, he is still getting shocked badly.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 16, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Oro used killing intent to simulate Kakashi's death. If Itachi used genjutsu: sharingan on Kakashi who could of potentially ended the battle.


He didn't even look at Kakashi when he said why don't you try. The mere thought made Kakashi sweat like shit. And Kakashi said he was an idiot to think to even compete with orochimaru.. Yet he competed with Itachi.


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## NamesClassified (Apr 20, 2018)

Shark said:


> The speed difference is irrelevant because Kakashi can't make anything of it anyway.


Huh? Kamuiing faster then Amaterrasu hit is certainly making use of its speed


Shark said:


> Kakashi has more feats because he needs them more, *Itachi doesn't because his strength usually is enough. Whenever Itachi's intelligence/tactics needed to shine, they did. *So I think they're pretty close. When Itachi and Kakashi faced in part I their tactics were pretty even until Kakashi was eventually overpowered (Tsukiyomi). When they faced in part II and Itachi was restricted, Kakashi only managed to pull through because of back-up. So from direct confrontation Kakashi doesn't beat him either.


Huh?

Are you asking me to assume that "Itachi is Kakashi's equal because he don't need to use his intelligence in fights, but when he does he scales to Kakashi"? Even though we have no evidence from the manga backing this up in the form of better feats and equal hype? Attributing stats to Itachi for literally no concrete reason makes no sense IMO.

Kakashi has *higher quality tactical feats* and* better praise*. These are *facts *that need no inferring so I beleve Kakashi is smarter, or at the very least can form better on the fly strategies.

If this were any other stat like speed or strength I doubt you would have an issue with my argument. It may be for difficult to figuere out how intelligence plays in battle, but nonetheless it should still be treated as a stat in hypotheticals.

If you still disagree with ^ then I think me arguing is fruitless. I guess i'll have to debate under the assumption that neither are outsmarting the other.


Shark said:


> When Itachi and Kakashi faced in part I their tactics were pretty even until Kakashi was eventually overpowered (Tsukiyomi). When they faced in part II and Itachi was restricted, Kakashi only managed to pull through because of back-up. So from direct confrontation Kakashi doesn't beat him either.
> 
> What I'm basically saying is we can't lean towards one or the other to have the upper hand in a battle of wits. i.e "Kakashi will outsmart Itachi" is just as credible as "Itachi will outsmart Kakashi".


But tactics *weren't even in those battles. *In part 1 Kakashi prevented himself from getting clone fainted so + 1 point for the copy ninja.

Him needing Naruto doesn't change the fact that he clone fainted Shotan Itachi, it just means that Kakshi couldn't capitalize in early Shppuiden do to lack of power, power that he now possesses.

It's also worth noting that Kakashi made his strategy with Naruto in mind and under the the assumption that Itachi was 100%. Maybe if Kakashi was alone he would have formulated a plan for a solo win, but thats *headcannon* on my part and irrelevant to the battle here.

Though like you said *Shoten Itachi* was severely limited so I wouldn't have mentioned that fight for my argument if you didn't, but the *part 1 feat still stands.*



Shark said:


> Portrayal is a very strong argument for a debater, _especially when the two things being debated have not directly been compared by the manga (i.e the manga telling us straight up "Kakashi/Itachi is smarter than the other)._


Let me ask a simple question, why is Itachi's portrayal on Kakashi?

I've explained why Kakashi's tactical feats are of better than the ones that Itachi did against Nagato(fightin.

Iv'e posted the superior on panel hype and praise that Kakashi has received(my first post on page 4)

Youv'e said that hype and feats fall into portrayal, but if Itachi doesn't stack up their than that notions a bust

So do you have any other reason?


Shark said:


> If there really is no sufficient evidence then sure, but where do you see that in my argument?


I've showed you not only Kakashi's superior feats, but his better on panel praise as well. So if your arguing that portrayal places Itachi on equal footing with Kakashi, that means that you believe his "portrayal"(whatever you mean by that) must>hype and feats


Shark said:


> Not when it comes to deciding who's smarter. Intelligence for all characters is either you're smarter or not, there's no _"my intelligence and yours are on the same level, but my intelligence is a bad match-up for yours so I'm smarter"._
> 
> A bad match-up due to different abilities is not like comparing intelligence, see above.


Good point I concede here.


Shark said:


> Hype/feats fall into portrayal. i.e Itachi was portrayed as stronger than Orochimaru because: 1. statements from characters 2. feats of Itachi beating Orochimaru 3. Itachi's hype from other characters surpassing that of Orochimaru's..



To bad your own format solidifies why Itachi can be Kakashi's tatcital peer because
1.He has no statements indicating such or feats matching Kakashi's high end ones.

2.He's been outplayed by Kakashi *twice*(granted Shotan Itachi was limited so *once *I guess)

3. Itachi's hype doesn't stack up to Kakashi's(refer to my first post on this thread)

Itachi neither has equal hype or feats so your argument has no base to fall on. Like I said though i'm willing to debate under the assumption that there both equal in tactical aptidude.


Shark said:


> Kakashi has more feats, but those feats aren't necessarily better than Itachi's few ones.


Kakashi's got better feats than the ones you mentioned to me. Refer to by first post on page 4. I'm positive for every tactical feat Itachi has I can find on for Kakaashi thats either better in application(i.e actually clever) or portryal(i.e simple but treated as genius in series). I haven't just being arguing quantity, but quality has well. My first post to you on page 4 doesn't even mention Kakashi having more feats but better ones.



Shark said:


> But he's still using jutsu just to break LOS just so he can bunshin feint, the fact that Itachi doesn't need jutsu or LOS for bunshins means he has the advantage.


With a 10 meter head start, Kakashi using Mud Wall or a Water Ninjutsu before Itachi feints him from 10 meters away is incredibly likely. But like I said to Cosmos, I do agree the Itachi's ability to make clones with no hand-sign dection is an advantage (his best one IMO).


Shark said:


> If he keeps the battle at mid-range it's because he's *disadvantaged *at close range, which is my point.


 OK sure.


Shark said:


> Sure but again it means he's disadvantaged if he's using Kamui just to avoid Itachi getting close. That's chakra being wasted just because Itachi is closing in.


True of course





Shark said:


> 1. He might just waste Kamui on a clone
> 2. Itachi doesn't just bullrush head on for Tsukiyomi as that's not how he usually fights anyway, whenever they're eyes are meeting Kakashi is liable to Tsukiyomi.
> 3. If Kakashi gets in close quarters he risks being physically forced into Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Also, why would you assume Kakashi will Kamui a charging Itachi, but Itachi will not Amaterasu a charging Kakashi?


 1. If Itachi's running up to do Tsukiyomi then it won't be a clone, unless Itachi's clone can use MS techs. Even if he summons a clone in mid run, it will still be in Kakashi's line of sight. For him to distinguish a clone from the real Itachi should be simple.

2. How would Itachi get Kakashi to look at his eyes then? You did say he's force him physically. Kakashi's not doing so on his on volition.

3.Why get into close quarters? It's never been his MO when engaging Itachi before. He's never went close quaters against Itachi before without clones, I see no reason while he'll do it here unless Itachi forces him.


Shark said:


> Also, why would you assume Kakashi will Kamui a charging Itachi, but Itachi will not Amaterasu a charging Kakashi?


Huh? *I* *never said* Kakashi would charge at him.You stated that Itachi would *physically *force Kakashi to look him in the eye. I just assumed you meant by rushing in at him for cqc.


Shark said:


> That Itachi couldn't use MS. And had already captured another character in genjutsu (Naruto).


Kakashi didn't know that though, he was fighting under the pretense that Itachi could use MS techs and he did it while not looking in his eyes.





Shark said:


> Kakashi's Raiton clones are as undetectable as any of his other clones, Itachi was doing well against those in their first encounter. What Deva path is able or not able to do is not relevant when he have Itachi himself.


Itachi got tricked by a Water clone just like Pain got tricked by a Lightning clone. Itachi did no better than Deva Path in his fight. Both got doped despite their chakra seeing Dojutsu. Exploding clones have no such feats.

I'm simply stating that in terms of which clone type is better at tricking an enemy Ration Clones are undeniably superior to Exploding Clones based on feats.


Shark said:


> And all that underwater clone achieved was escape Itachi's own clone feint/exploding bunshin.


Ok? My point was that Kakashi somehow got underwater without using LOS distractions on Itachi, so I could see him doing it here in this fight.

Also he wouldn't have had to escape the Exploding Clone if not for Kurenai needing to be saved, but again I wasn't arguing that the clone did something worthwhile.


Shark said:


> The fact that he can be caught in genjutsu at any moment is what I'm trying to get at.


I'm pretty sure that the 3T sharigan made both Uchicha and Kakashi  without having to break free. You could argue that the Finger GG is not fodder, but I definitely wouldn't label it as superior to the Sharigan Genjutsu Kakashi resisted 


Shark said:


> Umm, that's Obito's Kamui. His warping isn't based on line of sight like Kakashi...
> 
> If you put a door in front of Obito he can warp and appear behind it. Kakashi can't warp a rock that's behind the barrier because the door is in the way.


 Susanno or at least itachi's V4  though, it's clearly transparent.


Shark said:


> Amaterasu can be used at long range too.


Kakashi with LOS Kakashi can win with Kamui faster than Amaterasu can take him down. I meant to add that second part in my reply.


Shark said:


> I think Itachi has the advantage because he has *Susano'o to block LOS*, Tsukiyomi when eye contact is made, Amaterasu at a distance or in close range or when Kakashi is avoiding eye contact and overall comparable intelligence, bunshin feints and superior speed and execution.


Susanno or at least itachi's V4 , it's clearly transparent and it leaves ample space for Kamui to enter it.

Like you said Itachis fast clone feints aiding his MS techs gives him strong advantages but I still think this battle can go either way 50/50 style.

In closing I believe Kakashi has a chance to win because of his faster MS tech mitigating Itachi's advantage of having two techs, better tactical aptitude, better inconspicuous offensive clones for feints(Ration) and a more inconspicuous means of getting around in the battlefield(Hidden mole tech)


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## Bookworm (Apr 20, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Huh? Kamuiing faster then Amaterrasu hit is certainly making use of its speed


Itachi and Sasuke were able to get off Amaterasu after one panel, which shows Amaterasu's fastest speed isn't lacking in comparison to Kamui. Itachi when he fought Jiraiya and Sasuke when he fought Kaguya.

@NamesClassified

Kakashi hasn't shown better tactics than Itachi. The first battle Itachi showed fantastic tactics and his was superior to Kakashi:

- In the first battle Itachi's plan was to focus Kakashi's attention on the shurikens in his hand, so he could use extremely fast handseals with his other hand, to form an unnoticed suiton under Kakashi's feet, if Kakashi didn't notice his suiton he would lose. Even if Kakashi did avoid that jutsu with Suiton Suijiheki, Itachi was able to use his previous actions to establish that he has extremely fast handseals, by using the broken LOS from Kakashi's suiton he could switch places with KB unnoticed. The reason the switch was believable is because Itachi established his fast hand seals, this disguised his plan.

Kakashi may have also used block LOS to create a switch with a clone, but Itachi was a step ahead. Kakashi wanted to get the drop on Itachi. Of course he wouldn't go after the clone, giving away his position, while making himself vulnerable. Kakashi would try to get the drop on the real one and ignore the clone, which he did. It was a good plan, but he didn't know that Itachi was a clone.

Itachi was ahead of Kakashi the whole time during that battle. As far Kakashi's battle against the Shouten Clone of Itachi, it shouldn't be used against Itachi. It's true that Kakashi clone feinted Itachi, but an important point that's not taken into consideration, is that Itachi had an opportunity to do the same thing after he broke LOS with Gokakyuu. He didn't because he couldn't since he only had 30% of his chakra. Kakashi would of clone feinted a clone if that was the real Itachi.


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## Kisame (Apr 23, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Are you asking me to assume that "Itachi is Kakashi's equal because he don't need to use his intelligence in fights, but when he does he _scales to Kakashi_"?


Yes.


> Even though we have no evidence from the manga backing this up in the form of better feats and equal hype? Attributing stats to Itachi for literally no concrete reason makes no sense IMO.


I already mentioned his feats to you several times and several characters have praised him. I also mentioned his direct feats against Kakashi himself in the same paragraph you're quoting.


> Kakashi has *higher quality tactical feats* and* better praise*. These are *facts *that need no inferring so I beleve Kakashi is smarter, or at the very least can form better on the fly strategies.


Those aren't facts as Itachi's feats were also just as impressive. You're saying his feats are better but you're not actually explaining why.


> In part 1 Kakashi prevented himself from getting clone fainted so + 1 point for the copy ninja.


That's a very biased view of that fight, read @Trolling's post. He clarifies how this was not the case.


> Him needing Naruto doesn't change the fact that he clone fainted Shotan Itachi


Of course it does, he needed outside help. If Itachi had help from someone else to beat Kakashi, would you say "Itachi still got the drop on him, it doesn't matter that he got outside help"?

If Naruto wasn't there, Itachi and the clone would have continued to fight CQC and Itachi wouldn't have been defeated.


> it just means that Kakshi couldn't capitalize in early Shppuiden do to lack of power, power that he now possesses.


I'm not sure how you can cite "lack of power" as an excuse for Kakashi while ignoring that the version of Itachi he was fighting couldn't use the Mangekyou Sharingan.


> It's also worth noting that Kakashi made his strategy with Naruto in mind and under the the assumption that Itachi was 100%.


Kakashi with Naruto's help =/= Kakashi by himself. That's what matters.

We're not discussing "Kakashi + allies" we're discussing "Kakashi".


> Maybe if Kakashi was alone he would have formulated a plan for a solo win, but thats *headcannon* on my part and irrelevant to the battle here.


Actually that is the only relevant part that you brought up; as how Kakashi performs by himself is what we're concerned with.



> Let me ask a simple question, why is Itachi's portrayal on Kakashi?


When they fought the first time, Itachi was slightly ahead in planning. When they fought a second time, Itachi was restricted and Kakashi had help.



> I've explained why Kakashi's tactical feats are of better than the ones that Itachi did against Nagato(fightin.


Naruto and Bee were panicking from:
1. Shared vision
2. Chibaku Tensei

Itachi quickly shut down the shared vision, then while Naruto and Bee were panicking about Chibaku Tensei he scolded them and told them that no matter how strong a jutsu is it must have a weakness. He countered Nagato's strongest jutsu by outsmarting it which is something no one's did before, otherwise they all would have been done for. He lead them straight to victory.



> Iv'e posted the superior on panel hype and praise that Kakashi has received(my first post on page 4)


Itachi has better insight and long term planning for a battle than Kakashi, that's why he can figure out things/see into the future and that's why he was able to put SM Kabuto of all people into a genjutsu loop. SM Kabuto and Nagato were *stronger *than Itachi and that's why it's impressive. That's what his hype is about.

Kakashi's hype is him being "smart and cunning" but when they faced he didn't outsmart Itachi.


> I've showed you not only Kakashi's superior feats, but his better on panel praise as well. So if your arguing that portrayal places Itachi on equal footing with Kakashi, that means that you believe his "portrayal"(whatever you mean by that) must>hype and feats


Itachi defeated opponents* stronger than him* due to his intelligence, how that is not impressive I don't know.
To bad your own format solidifies why Itachi can be Kakashi's tatcital peer because


> 1.He has no statements indicating such or feats matching Kakashi's high end ones.
> 
> 2.He's been outplayed by Kakashi *twice*(granted Shotan Itachi was limited so *once *I guess)
> 
> 3. Itachi's hype doesn't stack up to Kakashi's(refer to my first post on this thread)


Orochimaru, Obito, Kabuto, Hashirama, Hiruzen all thought of Itachi as more of a threat than Kakashi. Kakashi's hype is more focused on "smart" while Itachi's is more on "foresight/strategy" i.e planning Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye "I would have been dead had I not kept a secret" Kabuto "Itachi is different to all the other edos"

Itachi outsmarted opponents stronger than him and beat them because of his planning, that's one on Kakashi.


> Kakashi's got better feats than the ones you mentioned to me. Refer to by first post on page 4. I'm positive for every tactical feat Itachi has I can find on for Kakaashi thats either better in application(i.e actually clever) or portryal(i.e simple but treated as genius in series). I haven't just being arguing quantity, but quality has well. My first post to you on page 4 doesn't even mention Kakashi having more feats but better ones.


Show me Kakashi planning a whole fight against a person just to:
1. Outlast them so Orochimaru comes out
2. Plan a seal inside their eye without them finding out
3. Almost killing tobi from beyond the grave.

Show me Kakashi:
1. Countering a jutsu as strong as CT by leading a team of shinobi* superior to him* in a manner that has never been suggested before (Only person to come up with how to defeat CT and it wasn't the first time it was used, Naruto was done for even though he experienced it before).
2. Leading 2 shinobi on his level or stronger than him to defeat a stronger opponent (Nagato and Kabuto).

Show me Kakashi:
Planning a whole sequence of actions including movements, genjutsu and ninjutsu that form an endless loop against a* superior opponent*.

This doesn't mean Itachi is outright smarter, just that they have slightly different applications of intelligence and different feats.


> With a 10 meter head start, Kakashi using Mud Wall or a Water Ninjutsu before Itachi feints him from 10 meters away is incredibly likely.


How would that prevent him from getting feinted? He's just making it easier for Itachi to create a clone. Him needing those jutsu off the bat is not a good look anyway.


> 1. If Itachi's running up to do Tsukiyomi then it won't be a clone, unless Itachi's clone can use MS techs. Even if he summons a clone in mid run, it will still be in Kakashi's line of sight. For him to distinguish a clone from the real Itachi should be simple.


How would Kakashi know whether it's a clone or not if Itachi can feint him right to his face?


> 2. How would Itachi get Kakashi to look at his eyes then? You did say he's force him physically. Kakashi's not doing so on his on volition.


Ummm, Kakashi hasn't mastered Gai's style so unless he's willing to undermine his CQC skill he's gonna have to look into Itachi's eyes. Kakashi believes he can resist Itachi's basic genjutsu so he has to make a choice when engaging in CQC: Risk Tsukiyomi or risk CQC disadvantage.


> 3.Why get into close quarters? It's never been his MO when engaging Itachi before. He's never went close quaters against Itachi before without clones, I see no reason while he'll do it here unless Itachi forces him.


That's another way of saying Itachi holds the advantage over Kakashi in CQC.


> Huh? *I* *never said* Kakashi would charge at him.You stated that Itachi would *physically *force Kakashi to look him in the eye. *I just assumed you meant by rushing in at him for cqc.*


And my question is: Why would you assume Itachi will charge him to use Tsukiyomi and not assume the same charging tactic for Kakashi wit


> Kakashi didn't know that though, he was fighting under the pretense that Itachi could use MS techs and he did it while not looking in his eyes.


It doesn't matter what Kakashi knew; the point is that Itachi was restricted. Kakashi's lack of knowledge doesn't grant Itachi those restricted powers back now, does it?


> Itachi got tricked by a Water clone just like Pain got tricked by a Lightning clone. Itachi did no better than Deva Path in his fight. Both got doped despite their chakra seeing Dojutsu. Exploding clones have no such feats.


???

Itachi and Kakashi were feinting each other continuously, Itachi started the feinting and Kakahsi finished it but Itachi was never on the defensive, Kakashi was.

Read @Trolling's post.


> I'm simply stating that in terms of which clone type is better at tricking an enemy Ration Clones are undeniably superior to Exploding Clones based on feats.


It doesn't matter if it's Raiton/kage bunshin/exploding bunshin what matters is the skill of the user. This means that Kakshi's other feints on Itachi will have about the same likelihood of success as the Raiton bunshin.


> Ok? My point was that Kakashi somehow got underwater without using LOS distractions on Itachi, so I could see him doing it here in this fight.
> 
> Also he wouldn't have had to escape the Exploding Clone if not for Kurenai needing to be saved, but again I wasn't arguing that the clone did something worthwhile.


If you're gonna mention Kurenai then you might as well mention how she is the reason Kakashi got the drop on Itachi in the first place.

If Kurenai wasn't there, the clone would still have exploded and Kakashi would still have needed to dodge.


> I'm pretty sure that the 3T sharigan made both Uchicha and Kakashi  without having to break free. You could argue that the Finger GG is not fodder, but I definitely wouldn't label it as superior to the Sharigan Genjutsu Kakashi resisted


CQC + Genjutsu (Itachi) is > CQC (Kakashi) w/o Genjutsu.

Itachi's 3 tomoe genjutsu has better feats than Tobi's, Kakashi can break them but they are not a* non-factor* just because he *can* break them. He is still at a disadvantage in CQC is what I'm saying.

It's still a tool at his disposal that Kakashi doesn't possess.


> Susanno or at least itachi's V4  though, it's clearly transparent.


You're taking LOS too literally, if you have a substance between you and the target then Kamui will not go through it just because the substance is transparent.

LOS isn't based on transparency but on whether or not a substance is blocking the target. Susano'o operates like a wall, just because it's transparent doesn't mean Kamui will negate it.​


> Kakashi with LOS Kakashi can win with Kamui faster than Amaterasu can take him down. I meant to add that second part in my reply.


Again Amaterasu's speed disadvantage is irrelevant because Kakashi does not posses the tools to make use of that slight difference in speed to counter the technique:

1. He can't sense it like Nagato
2. He can't dodge it like A

So it has the same likelihood of success as Kamui.


> In closing I believe Kakashi has a chance to win because of his faster MS tech mitigating Itachi's advantage of having two techs, better tactical aptitude, better inconspicuous offensive clones for feints(Ration) and a more inconspicuous means of getting around in the battlefield(Hidden mole tech)


Itachi is better in CQC due to his clone advantage and his MS techs forcing Kakashi to make a hard choice between looking or not looking at his eyes. Kakashi can't make use of the slight delay in Amaterasu so it equals his Kamui practically and Itachi has Tsukiyomi and Susano'o which can wall off Kamui on a consistent basis.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 23, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi and Sasuke were able to get off Amaterasu after one panel, which shows Amaterasu's fastest speed isn't lacking in comparison to Kamui..


Wut?? Night guy.. An attack of physical speed which bends space took more than 2 panels... 
Number of panels isn't a measure of Jutsu speed..


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## Bookworm (Apr 23, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> Wut?? Night guy.. An attack of physical speed which bends space took more than 2 panels...
> Number of panels isn't a measure of Jutsu speed..



From what I remember it was never said that it bends space, because of speed. 

If the number of panels isn't indicative of speed than how do you judge speed?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> From what I remember it was never said that it bends space, because of speed.
> 
> If the number of panels isn't indicative of speed than how do you judge speed?


Then you remember wrong.. A guy who only uses taijutsu... Bends space and right when Madara exclaims he is too fast. 
In this linw of work(manga/comic) there is something called effective use of panels because artists have limited number of pages to tell the story.. So trivial actions like opening eyes don't need more panels unless it is something special in the stoey. Actions which require more physical movements no matter how fast they are take more panels to explain it. It also depends on the importance of said action narrative wise. An action like opening an eye doesn't require too many panels but something like night guy needs more panels because there are more actions involved. The only time a single panel denotes speed is through drawing after images of a complete action... Like Lee vs Gara or Guy vs Madara 7 gate where the whole cqc part was shown in one panel and Itachi activating jutsu with superb hand seal speed . 
By your logic.. If panel number denotes speed, it took itachi 3 panels to go from sharingan to MS the first time he used it. So according to your logic, Kakashi or Sasuke who need just one panel to use ama and kamui can spam It 3 times by the time itachi even activates his MS, which doesn't even support your argument here. It took one panel for itachi to weave hand signs... And one panel for Kisame to bring down his sword before Asuma... And it took 2 panels for guy to kick Kisame before he could bring down his sword.... 
Panel quantity does not determine speed of characters or jutsus unless text accompanying it suggests so.


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## Bookworm (Apr 24, 2018)

@PradyumnaR  How do you determine Amaterasu activation speed vs Jiraiya? Vs Sasuke? Vs Kaguya?


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## Bookworm (Apr 24, 2018)

Itachi doesn't take a long time to activate MS.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> @PradyumnaR  How do you determine Amaterasu activation speed vs Jiraiya? Vs Sasuke? Vs Kaguya?


It depends on how fast the character who uses it is was at that time... Sasuke went from normal to sharingan in one panel but itachi took 3 to go to ms from sharingan.
Does it mean Sasuke can do it quicker cause he took more panels.. Lol nope. It is Simoly because Ms was shown for the forst time and to create anticipation. Story telling techniques cannot be counted as standard feats.


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> Itachi doesn't take a long time to activate MS.


He did take 3 panels the first time he did it... Not because he was slow but to create suspense... The panels were drawn in slow mo... Like ho when Minato tagged obito. 
Number panels used is a story telling convenience and not a Speed feat. I've already given you numerous examples as why it cannot be taken as standard.


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## Bookworm (Apr 24, 2018)

PradyumnaR said:


> It depends on how fast the character who uses it is was at that time... Sasuke went from normal to sharingan in one panel but itachi took 3 to go to ms from sharingan.
> Does it mean Sasuke can do it quicker cause he took more panels.. Lol nope. It is Simoly because Ms was shown for the forst time and to create anticipation. Story telling techniques cannot be counted as standard feats.



So how fast was Amaterasu?


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## Leaf Hurricane (Apr 24, 2018)

Trolling said:


> So how fast was Amaterasu?


As fast as its user.


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## NamesClassified (May 3, 2018)

Shark said:


> Yes.
> I already mentioned his feats to you several times and several characters have praised him.


It's level to this shit, which is what my argument has been based around, Itachi's feats and hype not being up to par rather than them not being impressive.


Shark said:


> and several characters have praised him.


Several? you've mentioned one, from Hiruzen. Your exact quote was "At seven he had the wisdom of a Hokage" Even then we have to pretend Hiruzen was talking about Itachi's tactical aptitude or his analytical abilities in combat as a 7 year old.

Well you did mention another quote from *Itachi himself*. I don't need to to tell you why that holds litte merit. I mean Kakashi one said he had a "superior intellect", but i'm not gonna quote Kakashi propping himself up.


Anyway how is that better than


-Obito Uchiha



Itachi Uchiha



And last but not least.


-God of Shinobi.





Shark said:


> I also mentioned his direct feats against Kakashi himself in the same paragraph you're quoting.


 What feats did I quote? All you said was "Their tactics were pretty even" You really didn't offer any details on why you believe such a thing.



Shark said:


> Those aren't facts as Itachi's feats were also just as impressive. You're saying his feats are better but you're not actually explaining why.





Yes I believe I have. Leading a team against Nagato is overshadowed by Kakashi leading a team against Obito. I said this in literally in my first post G. My exact words were " it was Kakashi who guided Naruto and Guy to figure out how to beat Obito". First post man........


If you want a reason why i believe this is superior than thats easy. Obito is stronger and/or smater than Nagato, so it's a better feat.


We have to rank tactical feats based on the strength of the enemies they were used on, since the tactics they actually used in battle mean less then the portrayal of said tactics *according to you.*


While i'll respond below to your comments relating to tactics, overall I believe we have to come to an impasse on this intelligence. I think it's pointless to debate about it at this point.


Shark said:


> That's a very biased view of that fight, read @Trolling's post. He clarifies how this was not the case.




 also said that Kakashi "attacked" Itachi's clone when that shit never happened. Is Inserting headcannon into a post to supplement an argument not as biased as bias can be?



Shark said:


> Of course it does, he needed outside help. If Itachi had help from someone else to beat Kakashi, would you say "Itachi still got the drop on him, it doesn't matter that he got outside help"?


I'm not disputing Naruto's assistance in winning, just don't know what Kakashi feinting Shotan Itachi has to do with it.



When I said lack of power I mean that he now has a means of eliminating Itachi from long range now that he didn't before with perfected Kamui. If he gets Itachi in a similar position in this fight, he'd be a goner.


I'd could argue that is Naruto wasn't their he could have won even with his shit tier Kamui, but whatever. Yeah Kakashi had help in the fight so i'll *concede *that Itachi didn't lose in a battle of tactics their.


Like I said earlier though i don't count Kakashi's feint in that fight since Itachi was gimped.




Shark said:


> If Naruto wasn't there, Itachi and the clone would have continued to fight CQC and Itachi wouldn't have been defeated.



You think an 30%Itachi without clones or MS techs can beat BOS MS Kakashi? Might make a thread.



Shark said:


> Itachi quickly shut down the shared vision.





Kakashi in the short span of time, figured out the technical application of the Deva Paths abilities and discerned its 5 scecond interval weakness. Is this feat more impressive than Itachi blinding the Nagato's Summons? Maybe or maybe not, but it is certainly comparable. The next feat I post below certainly is better based on your standards however.




Shark said:


> Then while Naruto and Bee were panicking about Chibaku Tensei he scolded them and told them that no matter how strong a jutsu is it must have a weakness. He countered Nagato's strongest jutsu by outsmarting it which is something no one's did before, otherwise they all would have been done for. He lead them straight to victory.



When Guy and Naruto were worried about Obito's Kamui, Kakashi said "calm down I got this shit". He countered Obito's strongest jutsu when only Minato could counter before. If he didn't, his team would have been done for. He would have lead them straight to victory if not for Madara's arrival.



I don't think this fight is more impressive than what Kakashi did against the Deva Path, but in terms of "portrayal" Kakashi leading a team against a stronger and smarter Obito is more impressive on paper than Itachi leading a team against Nagato.




Shark said:


> Itachi has better insight and long term planning for a battle than Kakashi, that's why he can figure out things/see into the future and that's why he was able to put SM Kabuto of all people into a genjutsu loop. SM Kabuto and Nagato were *stronger *than Itachi and that's why it's impressive. That's what his hype is about.




OK? Relying heavily on tactics usually means that your weaker than your adversary. It's the norm of the series i'm aware of. Nagto and Kabuto being Itachi's superior doesn't change argument for Kakashi, since i've been arguing from the start with the knowledge that Kabuto and Nagato>Itachi.


The same props applies to Kakashi anyway, who was weaker than pretty much everyone he faced while working with a team in Shippuden bar Edo Seven Ninja swordsman and maybe Deidara.




Shark said:


> Kakashi's hype is him being "smart and cunning" but when they faced he didn't outsmart Itachi.




He countered Itachi's clone feint and saw through Itachi exploding clone. Kakashi was on the defensive by virtue of being the *weaker opponent*, but to say Kakashi didn't outplay him in their scuffle is blatantly untrue. Call me biased, but from what I saw Kakashi waded through Itachi's tech but Itachi did not see through Kakashi's clone. I invite you to prove me wrong on this.


Let me break it down how I see it. This for you to @Trolling


-Itachi uses a Water Style/shurkin combo to blindside Kakashi with a clone feint, *Kakashi counters with a Water Clone*


-Itachi uses an exploding clone to kill Kurenai, *Kakashi identifies the clone and saves Kurenai*


The short of it is the only tech that Itachi uses to any effect was Exploding Clone and that was not even aimed at Kakashi but *Kurenai*, while *Kakashi successfully clone feints* his stronger adversary.



Shark said:


> Show me Kakashi:
> 
> 
> 1. Countering a jutsu as strong as CT by leading a team of shinobi superior to him in a manner that has never been suggested before (Only person to come up with how to defeat CT and it wasn't the first time it was used, Naruto was done for even though he experienced it before).
> ...




1.He countered Obito's Kamui by leading a team of shinobi *superior *to him in a manner that has never been suggested before(Kakashi's Kamui made his strategy viable only to himself). Also it sounds like you think leading at team superior to you is a determent. Leading a team *weaker *then you is surely more cumbersome and is more deserving of props.



2. Uhm against and . Deva Path also, though he did die do to Asura Path.




Shark said:


> Orochimaru, Obito, Kabuto, Hashirama, Hiruzen all thought of Itachi as more of a threat than Kakashi. Kakashi's hype is more focused on "smart" while Itachi's is more on "foresight/strategy" i.e planning Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye "I would have been dead had I not kept a secret" Kabuto "Itachi is different to all the other edos"





Half these guy's didn't even praise Itachi because of his intellectual prowess based on the comments you attached to them. Hell Hashi didn't even know who Kakashi as you know, on the account of him being dead like 80 years before Kakashi's birth.



Hashirama: Contributions to village.


Orochimaru: Genjutsu


Kabuto: Kotokamiatsui


Shark said:


> Itachi outsmarted opponents *stronger *than him and beat them because of his planning, that's* one on Kakashi.*




One on Kakashi? Was *Deva Path* not stronger than Kakashi? Was *Obito *not stronger then Kakashi? Was *Kaguya *not stronger than Kakashi?




Shark said:


> Show me Kakashi planning a whole fight against a person just to:
> 
> 1. Outlast them so Orochimaru comes out
> 2. Plan a seal inside their eye without them finding out
> 3. Almost killing tobi from beyond the grave.


1. Outlasting a fight against someone weaker shouldn't be noteworthy from a intelligence standpoimt.

2. Itachi poked a, thats all. And please don't tell me that it was "portrayed as noteworthy"

3. No comment, Don't see how it correlates to battle IQ, but whatever.......



Shark said:


> Show me Kakashi:
> 
> 
> Planning a whole sequence of actions including movements, genjutsu and ninjutsu that form an endless loop against asuperior opponent.


 Can you show me Itachi *warping space and time* to combat someone as strong as Obito or Kaguya? You can't because *Itachi can't use Kamui*, just like *Kakashi can't use Izanami.*



Shark said:


> How would that prevent him from getting feinted? He's just making it easier for Itachi to create a clone. Him needing those jutsu off the bat is not a good look anyway.


 I didn't say it would prevent him from getting feinted, but it gives him cover to burrow underground so he can start his feinting game. Don't no why using a simple Ninjustu like Mud Wall is a bad look.




Shark said:


> How would Kakashi know whether it's a clone or not if Itachi can feint him right to his face?




If Itachi summons a clone right in Kakashi face from a distance then why wouldn't he see it? Is he going to move so fast that Kakashi won't see him switching places?





Shark said:


> Ummm, Kakashi hasn't mastered Gai's style so unless he's willing to undermine his CQC skill he's gonna have to look into Itachi's eyes. Kakashi believes he can resist Itachi's basic genjutsu so he has to make a choice when engaging in CQC: Risk Tsukiyomi or risk CQC disadvantage.


Evidently Kakashi doesn't have to look into Itachi's eyes at , which was my point. And I'm giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt by believing Kakashi didn't go into CQC range while Naruto was in Genjutsu.


Shark said:


> It doesn't matter what Kakashi knew; the point is that Itachi was restricted. Kakashi's lack of knowledge doesn't grant Itachi those restricted powers back now, does it?


I'll repeat myself. Regardless of Itachi not having MS techs Kakashi fought him under the assumption that he could and he  Give Itachi Tsukuyomi and the skirmish would have went the same way. Do you disagree with this?




Shark said:


> That's another way of saying Itachi holds the advantage over Kakashi in CQC.


My man, I already conceded this. Just so were clear by CQC i mean h2h combat and nothing else.




Shark said:


> And my question is: Why would you assume Itachi will charge him to use Tsukiyomi and not assume the same charging tactic for Kakashi wit




Kamui doesn't require eye contact so Kakashi has no need to charge him in CQC like a nut.

Now you said Itachi would physically for Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. If he doesn't blitz for CQC how is he doing this? Can you answer my question so I no longer have to assume shit?




Shark said:


> ???
> 
> 
> 
> ...




No Itachi* tried to clone feint* Kakashi while he got doped by a water clone. The prerequisite for a clone feint is for you to suprise your opponent with your clone. Itachi feinting Kakakshi's water clone doesn't meet those requirements, while Kakashi's water clone doping the real Itachi does.



In a lame mans words.



Itachi feinting a water clone=*no feint*



Kakashi feinting the real Itachi=*successful feint*




Shark said:


> If you're gonna mention Kurenai then you might as well mention how she is the reason Kakashi got the drop on Itachi in the first place.
> 
> 
> 
> If Kurenai wasn't there, the clone would still have exploded and Kakashi would still have needed to dodge.




But why? Kakashi already distinguished it as a clone so why would he go any where near it except to save Kurenai? Are you saying he figured it out right before the explosion, ehh seems unlikely though I guess it's possible that Kakashi didn't see the chakra build up to the last second.




Shark said:


> CQC + Genjutsu (Itachi) is > CQC (Kakashi) w/o Genjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Tobi's 3T has feats of controlling Kurama, mind screwing Konan and controlling Yagura. Itachi doesn't have better 3T feats. It's got better hype from Ao, but not feats.



Why are you bringing up 3T anyway? Your exact statement was "Kakashi can still be caught in genjutsu without eye contact". Itachi's only non Sharigan based Genjutsu is Finger GG. If Itachi's going to use Sharigan Genjutsu it's gonna be MS, so 3T is irrelevant.



Also Kakashi has 3T with feats of , so he does possess _the tools_.




Shark said:


> It doesn't matter if it's Raiton/kage bunshin/exploding bunshin what matters is the skill of the user. This means that Kakshi's other feints on Itachi will have about the same likelihood of success as the Raiton bunshin.



No. The prerequisite for a clone feint is for the clone to be indistingable from the real deal. Itachi's Exploding Clones can be detected by Kakashi's Sharigan can see trhrough them, so logically a clone feint is nigh impossible with them


Itachi's feinting skills are irrelevant if his exploding clones can't deceive his opponent, therefore Lightning Clones> Exploding Ones.



Unless your arguing the Itachi's Exlopding Bushins don't alert the Sharigan, which mean's Kakashi without any occular assistance was able to identify Itachi's clone. This theory only helps my case, as it means Kakashi is legit better at detecting all clones types than Itachi and it dispels any thoughts on Kakashi seeing the chakra build up of Itachi's Exploding Clone right before he saved Kurenai.





Shark said:


> You're taking LOS too literally, if you have a substance between you and the target then Kamui will not go through it just because the substance is transparent.
> 
> 
> 
> LOS isn't based on transparency but on whether or not a substance is blocking the target. Susano'o operates like a wall, just because it's transparent doesn't mean Kamui will negate it.




But Kamui is a Space Time Ninjustu,  It should appear on anything Kakashi can see.It appears at a certain point in space where kakashi is focusing.

It's difficult to search for proof in the manga but here are a few that I dug up.


 -I think that Kakashi warped Gyuki while shrouded in BM Naruto's cloak here.

-Here Kakashi is about to use use Kamui.

-Kakashi was able to imbue his Shikruken with Kamui  Seems like good proof IMO.






Shark said:


> Again Amaterasu's speed disadvantage is irrelevant because Kakashi does not posses the tools to make use of that slight difference in speed to counter the technique:
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Literally none of this discards Kamui's speed advantage



It's irrelevant that Kakashi can't dodge Amaterasu because his attack has a faster draw. He can attack faster than Amaterasu can fire off in virtually any standoff.



In other words....


1.He doesn't need to sense it if his attack hits first

2.He doesn't need to dodge it if his attack hits first



Shark said:


> tachi is better in CQC due to his clone advantage and his MS techs forcing Kakashi to make a hard choice between looking or not looking at his eyes. Kakashi can't make use of the slight delay in *Amaterasu so it equals his Kamui practically* and Itachi has Tsukiyomi and *Susano'o which can wall off Kamui on a consistent basis.*




I stand by my previous opinion of 50/50 under the assumption that the *bold* is false. If it isn't then Itachi takes the win, but I have 100% believe that Kamui is Amaterasu's superior and while not 100% certain, I have good reason to believe that Kamui bypasses Sussanos defense .

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kisame (May 6, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> Several? you've mentioned one, from Hiruzen. Your exact quote was "At seven he had the wisdom of a Hokage" Even then we have to pretend Hiruzen was talking about Itachi's tactical aptitude or his analytical abilities in combat as a 7 year old.


All of Itachi's praise ties in perfectly with his feats; he's one step ahead and can get out of tough situations and lead people to victory through insight and long term planning. It fits from his general praise and his actual feats.

Why you believe that is below Kakashi's analytical portrayal is beyond me.


> Well you did mention another quote from *Itachi himself*. I don't need to to tell you why that holds litte merit. I mean Kakashi one said he had a "superior intellect", but i'm not gonna quote Kakashi propping himself up.


I don't remember what the quote was but depending on the personality of the character and how accurate his statements have been portrayed I don't see why their description of themselves can't be taken into account. Kakashi saying "I'm smart" isn't inadmissible because he's not arrogant, etc.


> Anyway how is that better than
> 
> 
> -Obito Uchiha


Sure but Kamui was a good match up which cannot be ignored.


> Itachi Uchiha


Yes Kakashi is analytical while Itachi is a long term planner/wise.


> And last but not least.
> 
> 
> -God of Shinobi.


We're not talking about DMS Rikudo Kakashi, who actually managed those feats.


> Yes I believe I have. Leading a team against Nagato is overshadowed by Kakashi leading a team against Obito.


Not when you consider the match up benefit Kakashi had and Itachi lacked.


> We have to rank tactical feats based on the strength of the enemies they were used on


Yes, but not exclusively.


> since the tactics they actually used in battle mean less then the portrayal of said tactics *according to you.*


How are you gonna determine which tactic is more impressive if not for portrayal? 


> I'm not disputing Naruto's assistance in winning, just don't know what Kakashi feinting Shotan Itachi has to do with it.


If Naruto wasn't there the fight would have unfolded differently i.e the events leading up to the bunshin feint might not have happened.


> When I said lack of power I mean that he now has a means of eliminating Itachi from long range now that he didn't before with perfected Kamui. If he gets Itachi in a similar position in this fight, he'd be a goner.


Itachi has Amaterasu.


> I'd could argue that is Naruto wasn't their he could have won even with his shit tier Kamui, but whatever. Yeah Kakashi had help in the fight so i'll *concede *that Itachi didn't lose in a battle of tactics their.


In that fight Itachi never lost to Kakashi period, he lost to Kakashi + Naruto.


> You think an 30%Itachi without clones or MS techs can beat BOS MS Kakashi?


I think that without Naruto Kakashi wouldn't have won that particular exchange with that clone feint as Naruto isn't there to finish him off.

In fact with Naruto gone Kakashi would have been the target of Itachi's finger genjutsu and the clone feint might not have happened in the first place.

What I'm saying is without Naruto's support the battle would have went differently and Itachi would have undoubtedly performed better.


> Kakashi in the short span of time, figured out the technical application of the Deva Paths abilities and discerned its 5 scecond interval weakness. Is this feat more impressive than Itachi blinding the Nagato's Summons? Maybe or maybe not, but it is certainly comparable.


I think Itachi's is more impressive because the shared vision which was portrayed as a problem for Naruto and Bee (Itachi's superiors) was casually dealt with by Itachi.

Countering shared vision > figuring out Deva's abilities imo.



> When Guy and Naruto were worried about Obito's Kamui, Kakashi said "calm down I got this shit". He countered Obito's strongest jutsu when only Minato could counter before.


That's because he has the _other _Kamui. 


> I don't think this fight is more impressive than what Kakashi did against the Deva Path, but in terms of "portrayal" Kakashi leading a team against a stronger and smarter Obito is more impressive on paper than Itachi leading a team against Nagato.


No it is not because Itachi's leadership skills were hardly influenced by match-up, what he did against CT and shared vision was not enhanced by his specific abilities to counter CT nor shared vision. Kakashi's Kamui on the other hand is literally the other half of Obito's power, so match up played a huge role there. He was obviously still impressive but let's not act like having a perfect match-up didn't help.

Against Kabuto there was still no match up advantage, Kabuto having not accepted his fate meant that Izanami will work but Itachi still had to activate the loop and work for it himself. If Kabuto was immune to Izanami he still would have fallen for the loop which is what's relevant here.

Against Kaguya Kakashi had to be given Rikudo chakra, another MS and a perfect Susano'o so all his tactics after that are pretty much inadmissible for a vastly inferior version that can't literally use the actual techniques he achieved those feats with. The praise he received from Hagoromo was including those power-ups. Would Kakashi have led Sasuke and Naruto to defeat Kaguya without those powers? No.


> 1.He countered Obito's Kamui


Because he had the other Kamui...his planning definitely played a part but let's not forget Kakashi had the tool that literally counters Obito.


> by leading a team of shinobi *superior *to him in a manner that has never been suggested before(Kakashi's Kamui made his strategy viable only to himself).


It was _Kamui_ that made Kakashi's strategy only viable to himself, whereas it was Itachi's _intelligence_ that made his CT feat a non-precedent.

It still helped that he could counter the gg of Obito by virtue of having Obito's other MS. i.e he had a match up benefit. Itachi didn't have a match up benefit when he applied his strategies against Kabuto and Nagato.





> Also it sounds like you think leading at team superior to you is a determent. Leading a team *weaker *then you is surely more cumbersome and is more deserving of props.


Leading a team of superior shinobi means your leadership is so good that them being stronger than you didn't matter. That's why I say it's impressive.


> 2. Uhm against and . Deva Path also, though he did die do to Asura Path.


Obito: match up
Kaguya: power up
Seems like Deva is the only impressive one.





> Hashirama: Contributions to village.


It ties in with Itachi's foreight etc


> Kabuto: Kotokamiatsui




He praised Itachi as different from everyone else by escaping Edo Tensei, he didn't praise Koto.

Maybe every praise of Kakashi should be discredited and attributed to the jutsu he used for it instead then? 


> One on Kakashi? Was *Deva Path* not stronger than Kakashi? Was *Obito *not stronger then Kakashi? Was *Kaguya *not stronger than Kakashi?


But Kakashi didn't defeat Deva path, and didn't Tobi throw the fight? Wasn't Kakashi handed another MS, a perfect Susano'o, and Rikudo's chakra before fighting Kaguya?


> 1. Outlasting a fight against someone weaker shouldn't be noteworthy from a intelligence standpoimt.
> 
> 2. Itachi poked a, thats all. And please don't tell me that it was "portrayed as noteworthy"
> 
> 3. No comment, Don't see how it correlates to battle IQ, but whatever.......


He managed to exhaust Sasuke so that Orochimaru would come out and be sealed, show him the MS that he was gonna get, and plant a seal that would have killed Tobi. It doesn't matter if he just poked him, he had insight to predict that Tobi would seek Sasuke and show him his sharingan and that's what's impressive.


> Can you show me Itachi *warping space and time* to combat someone as strong as Obito or Kaguya? You can't because *Itachi can't use Kamui*, just like *Kakashi can't use Izanami.*


Izanami needs the victim to be caught in a loop, what's being highlighted here is the *creation of that loop (A - B - C - A)* not the opponent being caught in Izanami.

Itachi still needs to create the loop himself for Izanami to work, he doesn't just magically go "Izanami!" and the loop is created.


> I didn't say it would prevent him from getting feinted, but it gives him cover to burrow underground so he can start his feinting game. Don't no why using a simple Ninjustu like Mud Wall is a bad look.


He's disadvantaged because he needs to block LOS to effectively bunshin feint.


> If Itachi summons a clone right in Kakashi face from a distance then why wouldn't he see it? Is he going to move so fast that Kakashi won't see him switching places?


Ask Kishimoto, not me.




> Evidently Kakashi doesn't have to look into Itachi's eyes at , which was my point. And I'm giving Itachi the benefit of the doubt by believing Kakashi didn't go into CQC range while Naruto was in Genjutsu.


Naruto was caught in genjutsu the moment Itachi pointed his finger at him which was before the fight even began, so it's a fact that Kakashi engaged Itachi while he has already caught Naruto.


> I'll repeat myself. Regardless of Itachi not having MS techs Kakashi fought him under the assumption that he could and he


And I'm telling you that's irrelevant, you're basically saying being restricted doesn't matter if the opponent doesn't know you are. That assumes whatever precautions Kakashi takes are enough to make up for that restriction which is baseless.


> Give Itachi Tsukuyomi and the skirmish would have went the same way. Do you disagree with this?


It definitely wouldn't have went the same way if Kakashi was alone though. 


> Kamui doesn't require eye contact so Kakashi has no need to charge him in CQC like a nut.


So just because Tsukiyomi requires eye contact, Itachi will exclusively attempt to use it on Kakashi by charging him?


> Now you said Itachi would physically for Tsukiyomi on Kakashi. If he doesn't blitz for CQC how is he doing this? Can you answer my question so I no longer have to assume shit?


He grabs Kakashi's head just like in the manga.


> No Itachi* tried to clone feint* Kakashi while he got doped by a water clone. The prerequisite for a clone feint is for you to suprise your opponent with your clone. Itachi feinting Kakakshi's water clone doesn't meet those requirements, while Kakashi's water clone doping the real Itachi does.


You're focusing too much on wording and describing what a successful feint is without looking at the bigger picture.

What did Kakashi realizing it was a clone achieve? He dodged the explosion last minute.

What did Itachi getting doped by Kakashi's water clone achieve for Kakashi? Kakashi dodging the explosion at the last minute.




> But why?


Why would Kakashi need to dodge? Because the clone will explode.

How else would he survive the explosion if he doesn't dodge it?



> Tobi's 3T has feats of controlling Kurama, mind screwing Konan and controlling Yagura. Itachi doesn't have better 3T feats. It's got better hype from Ao, but not feats.


I'm talking about genjutsu feats *in battle*, Yagura and Kurama were not controlled in battle so that's irrelevant.

In fact the only example you brought up in a battle situation is the one against Konan, and it shows all we need to know when Obito genjutsu'd her _after he actually defeated her._

When Obito has people close their eyes when fighting him we will talk. Until then, Obito was never the type to use 3 tomoe mid-battle or it being considered an important part of his arsenal in any of his battles. It always played a support role to further his plans and nothing more.

So no Tobi's 3 tomoe genjutsu is incomparable to Itachi's.


> Why are you bringing up 3T anyway? Your exact statement was "Kakashi can still be caught in genjutsu without eye contact". Itachi's only non Sharigan based Genjutsu is Finger GG. If Itachi's going to use Sharigan Genjutsu it's gonna be MS, so 3T is irrelevant.


?

Kakashi can be caught even without eye contact was my point, i.e it's a consistent danger.


> Also Kakashi has 3T with feats of , so he does possess _the tools_.


Please, let's not go down that road where we pretend Kakahi will ever use genjutsu on a high level opponent let alone be a match for/comparable with Itachi with it offensively.


> No. The prerequisite for a clone feint is for the clone to be indistingable from the real deal. Itachi's Exploding Clones can be detected by Kakashi's Sharigan can see trhrough them, so logically a clone feint is nigh impossible with them
> 
> 
> Itachi's feinting skills are irrelevant if his exploding clones can't deceive his opponent, therefore Lightning Clones> Exploding Ones.


Kakahi proved he can detect the clone last minute and dodge, not that the whole bunshin feint was useless. Kakashi was still pressured. The Raiton clone is as undetectable as any of Kakashi or Itachi's Karasu bunshin/kage bunshins/mizu bunshins, it just depends on how crafty the user is in that specific moment in time.

A feint won't always succeed and won't always fail, it depends on the flow of battle. Kakashi has the advantage in terms of being able to detect the exploding clone before it explodes. But Itachi's other bunshins (Karasu, Kage) are equal to Kakashi's bunshins in that they don't have any inherent factor that makes them somewhat detectable to Kakashi.

Add that to the advantage of being able to form bunshins without needing to block LOS I don't see how Kakashi is at an advantage.


> -I think that Kakashi warped Gyuki while shrouded in BM Naruto's cloak here.
> 
> -Here Kakashi is about to use use Kamui.


The biju-shroud is considered part of someone's body like clothes.

It doesn't prevent the user from casting techniques.


> -Kakashi was able to imbue his Shikruken with Kamui  Seems like good proof IMO.


Susano'o has clearly been portrayed as a chakra construct that acts like a physical wall to protect the user. This doesn't prevent the user from using *offensive* jutsu.

Kakashi would have been successful here even if Susano'o wasn't transparent.

It's transparency is so the user can see and be seen, not so that LOS jutsu can bypass it.


> Literally none of this discards Kamui's speed advantage
> 
> 
> 
> It's irrelevant that Kakashi can't dodge Amaterasu because his attack has a faster draw. He can attack faster than Amaterasu can fire off in virtually any *standoff*.


This is where you're mistaken, no one is comparing them in a standoff.

If Itachi fires at Kakashi the latter has the same chances of dealing with the attack as Itachi would if Kakashi fires Kamui due to the advantages that I mentioned making up for the speed difference.

A scenario where they simultaneously use Amaterasu and Kamui at the same exact time is ludicrous, why would such a thing even happen?


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 7, 2018)

@Shark 

I disagree with the Itachi vs Kakashi instance in part 2.

Kakashi went into that fight thinking that Itachi was at full power with ms and thus took the necessary prevention as he himself said. One of them was to have Naruto as backup.

Just because Naruto was the target of Finger genjutsu, doesn't mean that Kakashi would have fallen for it had he been alone, Itachi himself said Kakashi could resist 3T Genjutsu so finger genjutsu doing anything to him is laughable.

In the instance where Kakashi's clone feinted Itachi, negated his Genjutsu and caught him, he used Naruto because he had him there as backup, but had Naruto not been there, what was preventing him from utilizing Raikiri himself and finishing him off instead of Naruto?


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## Architect (May 7, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> In the instance where Kakashi's clone feinted Itachi, negated his Genjutsu and caught him, he used Naruto because he had him there as backup, but had Naruto not been there, what was preventing him from utilizing Raikiri himself and finishing him off instead of Naruto?


Naruto was needed there mainly because of the plot. Kishi needed to show Naruto's progression via odama rasengan and to make his MC do anything at all.


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## NamesClassified (May 9, 2018)

Shark said:


> All of Itachi's praise ties in perfectly with his feats; he's one step ahead and can get out of tough situations and lead people to victory through insight and long term planning. It fits from his general praise and his actual feats.
> 
> 
> Why you believe that is below Kakashi's *analytical *portrayal is beyond me.





Shark said:


> Yes Kakashi is *analytical *while Itachi is a long term planner/wise




Anyway I don't care much for portrayal. Iv'e been arguing in favor of Kakashi feats and hype which just so happens to fall into portrayal according to you.


Shark said:


> I don't remember what the quote was but depending on the personality of the character and how accurate his statements have been portrayed I don't see why their description of themselves can't be taken into account. Kakashi saying "I'm smart" isn't inadmissible because he's not arrogant, etc.


I'm sure you agree that praise from an outsiders perspective will always be greater then a combatants personal opinion on themselves.



Shark said:


> Sure but Kamui was a good match up which cannot be ignored.


Obito wasn't referencing Kamui in that scene, but 

But even so any good match up in universe shrivels in the facing of almighty portrayal.


Shark said:


> We're not talking about DMS Rikudo Kakashi, who actually managed those feats.


If thats the case then none of Edo Itachi's tactical feats should be used for the variant of Itachi in this hypothetical.

Powers equates to intelligence now? How you use your abilities in relation to your enemies strength should matter more than "oh you got a power up so blah" Kaguya was still orders of magnitude more powerful than the whole team anyway.



Shark said:


> Not when you consider the match up benefit Kakashi had and Itachi lacked.


You- "how a tactical feat is portrayed is what matters and *nothing else*"

Me-"Kakashi was portrayed as leading a team against Obito"

You- "Nah that's match ups"

Me- 


You on some shit Shark

Match ups don't mean much in universe so I don't see what it has to do with the "portrayal" of the feat, based on your description of the term.


Shark said:


> Yes, but not exclusively.


What? the next thing I quote is going to have you basically say "portrayal is the only way" but here your saying its not?



Shark said:


> How are you gonna determine which tactic is more impressive if not for portrayal?


I can dictate which is more impressive by the complexes in it's execution, but apparently I can't do that on this forum.

So regarding your question, you tell me?


Shark said:


> If Naruto wasn't there the fight would have unfolded differently i.e the events leading up to the bunshin feint might not have happened.



But Naruto didn't have any involvement in the fight leading up to the feint.



Shark said:


> Itachi has Amaterasu.


Kakashi was out of Itachi's LOS so Amaterasu would have been irrelevant, but like literally everyone has said, Itachi was gimped so we really shouldn't talk about that battle anymore.


Shark said:


> In that fight Itachi never lost to Kakashi period, he lost to Kakashi + Naruto.



Why are you refuting something that I never said? Did I said Kakashi soloed him? Can you quote me saying this?



Shark said:


> In fact with Naruto gone Kakashi would have been the target of Itachi's finger genjutsu and the clone feint might not have happened in the first place.



So Itachi's , but Finger GG will?



Shark said:


> What I'm saying is without Naruto's support the battle would have went differently and Itachi would have undoubtedly performed better.


Agreed.


Shark said:


> I think Itachi's is more impressive because the shared vision which was portrayed as a problem for Naruto and Bee (Itachi's superiors) was casually dealt with by Itachi.



Shared vison didn't hinder Naruto in the slightest and Bee didn't even fight the animal summons.



Shark said:


> Countering shared vision > figuring out Deva's abilities imo.



Some false equivalences here. Context is needed. When Kakashi figured out Deva Paths abilities he still had to combat the *Deva Path*, what did Itachi face? Some nutty ass Animal Summons. He didn't even has to kill the stupid fucks, they just sat there for the rest of the fight while blind and Nagato for some reason did nothing about it.

And technically he did counter ST when, albeit with backup.


Shark said:


> That's because he has the other Kamui.



Ok? He still is "portrayed" as successfully leading a team and swatting down Obito's most powerful jutsu. You can't argue portrayal for are entire discussion and now cling to an out of universe term like matchup for a counter argument.

If where going to pry that deep into why Kakashi could outsmart obito instead of looking at its *portrayal*, then why can't I do the same for Itachi’s feat against Nagato



Shark said:


> No it is not because Itachi's leadership skills were hardly influenced by match-up, what he did against CT and shared vision was not enhanced by his specific abilities to counter CT nor shared vision. Kakashi's Kamui on the other hand is literally the other half of Obito's power, so match up played a huge role there. He was obviously still impressive but let's not act like having a perfect match-up didn't help.


What does match ups have to do with the portrayal of Kakashi's feat in universe? No one in the series is screaming "damn Kakashi would have never won if not do to almighty match up". In universe he won because of his leadership skills.


I'll quote your response to why Itachi's "hit the the black ball" feat is portrayed as genius and change it to show you why arguing matchups is fruitless.


Shark said:


> Interpreting intelligence from feats is difficult, you yourself don't think the Kamui countering feat is impressive do to matchups, when I brought it up to showcase that Kishimoto intended to have Kakashi outshine both Naruto and Guy simultaneously and be their daddy.


Ya see?


Shark said:


> Against Kabuto there was still no match up advantage, Kabuto having not accepted his fate meant that Izanami will work but Itachi still had to activate the loop and work for it himself. If Kabuto was immune to Izanami he still would have fallen for the loop which is what's relevant here.


Match up cannot under any circumstances coincide with you portrayal argument. One is an out of universe battledome term and one is the representation of characters inside the fictional universe. Pick the one you want to use.


Shark said:


> Against Kaguya Kakashi had to be given Rikudo chakra, another MS and a perfect Susano'o so all his tactics after that are pretty much inadmissible for a vastly inferior version that can't literally use the actual techniques he achieved those feats with. The praise he received from Hagoromo was including those power-ups. Would Kakashi have led Sasuke and Naruto to defeat Kaguya without those powers? No.



Would to complete Izanami if not for him being an *Edo*? Nah. And before you say "Sasuke was a liability", Itachi if not for the kid. So taking the fight as a whole, Itachi wouldn't have won if not for his "upgrade", just like Kakashi.



Shark said:


> Because he had the other Kamui...his planning definitely played a part but let's not forget Kakashi had the tool that literally counters Obito.





Shark said:


> *Interpreting intelligence from feats is difficult, you yourself don't think the Kamui countering feat is impressive do to matchups when I brought it up to showcase that Kishimoto intended to have Kakashi outshine both Naruto and Guy simultaneously and be their daddy.*








Shark said:


> It was Kamui that made Kakashi's strategy only viable to himself, whereas it was Itachi's intelligence that made his CT feat a non-precedent.
> 
> 
> It still helped that he could counter the gg of Obito by virtue of having Obito's other MS. i.e he had a match up benefit. Itachi didn't have a match up benefit when he applied his strategies against Kabuto and Nagato.
> ...





Shark said:


> *Interpreting intelligence from feats is difficult, you yourself don't think the Kamui countering feat is impressive do to matchups when I brought it up to showcase that Kishimoto intended to have Kakashi outshine both Naruto and Guy simultaneously and be their daddy.*







Shark said:


> He praised Itachi as different from everyone else by escaping Edo Tensei, he didn't praise Koto.
> 
> 
> *Maybe every praise of Kakashi should be discredited and attributed to the jutsu he used for it instead then? *


Well that's literally what your doing by saying "Kakashi had match ups with Obito" but whatever.

Koto isn't considered a part of Itachi's techs in fights now is it? If it is then he stomps like 100% of the people you and others say he wouldn't.



Shark said:


> But Kakashi didn't defeat Deva path,


Asura Path saved Deva Path, he had him dead to rights.


Shark said:


> didn't Tobi throw the fight?


In their one on one boxland shit? Perhaps, but you know i'm talking about the team battle


Shark said:


> Wasn't Kakashi handed another MS, a perfect Susano'o, and Rikudo's chakra before fighting Kaguya?


Wasn't Itachi given unlimited stamina, unlimited MS usage and an immortal vessel before fighting Kabuto? See I can get into semantics too.

Now I consider the Itachi's feats against Kabuto to be perfectly sound, but if you want to continue this then......



Shark said:


> He managed to exhaust Sasuke so that Orochimaru would come out and be sealed, show him the MS that he was gonna get, and plant a seal that would have killed Tobi. It doesn't matter if he just poked him, he had insight to predict that Tobi would seek Sasuke and show him his sharingan and that's what's impressive


Sigh.... Ok



Shark said:


> Izanami needs the victim to be caught in a loop, what's being highlighted here is the creation of that loop (A - B - C - A) not the opponent being caught in Izanami.
> 
> 
> Itachi still needs to create the loop himself for Izanami to work, he doesn't just magically go "Izanami!" and the loop is created.



And Kakashi can't just go "kamui" and automatically inflict damage to Obito. He has to work in unison while being in sync with all of Naruto's offensive plays, and time Kamui right when Obito fazes through.


My point is you shouldn't ask me things you know Kakashi can't do, since anyone can play that game with any character. They both use their bullshit hax well.



Shark said:


> He's disadvantaged because he needs to block LOS to effectively bunshin feint.


Can he do it though? Yes


Shark said:


> And I'm telling you that's irrelevant, you're basically saying being restricted doesn't matter if the opponent doesn't know you are. That assumes whatever precautions Kakashi takes are enough to make up for that restriction which is baseless.



Kakashi's precaution of not looking into Itachi's eyes *is great enough* to make up for that restriction. That shits straight facts. Give me a reason why it's not, I beg you.



Shark said:


> It definitely wouldn't have went the same way if Kakashi was alone though.


100% agree



Shark said:


> Naruto was caught in genjutsu the moment Itachi pointed his finger at him which was before the fight even began, so it's a fact that Kakashi engaged Itachi while he has already caught Naruto.



Ok? I don't mean to be rude here but i'm not seeing your point. I'm aware that Naruto was GG'd.



Shark said:


> He grabs Kakashi's head just like in the manga.



He never grabbed Kakashi's head in the manga, he grabbed a clone that literally wanted to be their so  right the fuck back.



Shark said:


> 1.What did Kakashi realizing it was a clone achieve? He dodged the explosion last minute.
> 
> 
> 2.What did Itachi getting doped by Kakashi's water clone achieve for Kakashi? Kakashi dodging the explosion at the last minute.
> ...


i'l put numbers in your message so you know which point i'm addressing


1. It lets me know that Kakashi can detect clones better then Itachi without ocular assistance if I understand you correctly 


2. The fuck? It prevented him from being backstabed. Kakashi's Water Clone doping Itachi also lets me know that kakashi has the capabilities to possibility feint Itachi   



3. I didn't ask why Kakashi need to dodge, I asked why he would swim near a clone he identities without occular assistance if not to save Kurenai?

Feats can inform me how this hypothetical fight plays out, regardless of if the feat itself accomplished anything.



Shark said:


> I'm talking about genjutsu feats in battle, Yagura and Kurama were not controlled in battle so that's irrelevant.
> 
> 
> In fact the only example you brought up in a battle situation is the one against Konan, and it shows all we need to know when Obito genjutsu'd her after he actually defeated her.
> ...



Please explain to me the difference between GG'ing Kurama in battle and while not in battle?

You said Itachi has better Genjutsu feats, well what are they? I count 2, one against Kurenai and one against Deidara, are these better then GG..ing Kurama?

This is all setting aside the fact that Itachi literally stated that Kakashi could resist MS powered Sharigan Genjutsu. Key word here being *resist,* not "get caught and then release yourself".



Shark said:


> Kakahi proved he can detect the clone last minute and dodge, not that the whole bunshin feint was useless. Kakashi was still pressured. The Raiton clone is as undetectable as any of Kakashi or Itachi's Karasu bunshin/kage bunshins/mizu bunshins, it just depends on how crafty the user is in that specific moment in time.
> 
> A feint won't always succeed and won't always fail, it depends on the flow of battle. Kakashi has the advantage in terms of being able to detect the exploding clone before it explodes. But Itachi's other bunshins (Karasu, Kage) are equal to Kakashi's bunshins in that they don't have any inherent factor that makes them somewhat detectable to Kakashi.
> 
> Add that to the advantage of being able to form bunshins without needing to block LOS I don't see how Kakashi is at an advantage.


So you at least concede that Ration clones are objectively better at deception then Exploding Clones?



Shark said:


> The biju-shroud is considered part of someone's body like clothes.


A Bijuu Cloak is a chakra construct that protects the user, so if Kakshi can use Kamui inside one than it means his technique bypasses chakra constructs like Sussano.

Your saying that Kakashi's Kamui can work in unison with a foreign chakra construct that he has no control over?

Your saying that Kurama allowed Kamui to faze through a portion of his Bijuu Mode while he was completely shrouding himself from the Ten Tail's TBB?

All of this sounds faulty.


Shark said:


> It doesn't prevent the user from casting techniques.
> 
> Susano'o has clearly been portrayed as a chakra construct that acts like a physical wall to protect the user. This doesn't prevent the user from using *offensive* jutsu.


This on the other hand is sound logic. I concede on the Kami Shuriken feat



Shark said:


> This is where you're mistaken, no one is comparing them in a standoff.
> 
> If Itachi fires at Kakashi the latter has the same chances of dealing with the attack as Itachi would if Kakashi fires Kamui due to the advantages that I mentioned making up for the speed difference.



Kamui has other advantages aside from speed. It also has a range advantage, quicker kill time and more utilities. I mean whats stopping Kakashi from using Hidden Mole Technique to create a large distance to kill Itachi while under a bush 100 meters away, or teleporting behind Itachi or inside Sussano to backstab him? The second scenario is out there, but the first is sound.



Shark said:


> A scenario where they simultaneously use Amaterasu and Kamui at the same exact time is ludicrous, why would such a thing even happen?


 I could be _that guy_ and say Kakashi with full knowlege Kamui's Itachi right at the start of the match like against Tobi, but I digress.

It probably won't happen with methodical fighters like these two, but this is a series where ninja frequently clash jutsu's at the same time. It's not out of the realm of possibility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Architect (May 9, 2018)

And Itachi was praised for seeing a bigger picture and wisdom.
That's it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kisame (May 11, 2018)

@NamesClassified 

1. Itachi did have advantages due to being an edo, but Kakashi's advantage from his Kamui countering Obito's is much bigger.

2. Yes there is such a thing as match-up advantage and it does have implications on a character's performance. If we look at Itachi's feats against Nagato and Obito for example, he used Kunai for the summons and his intelligence for CT (his Yata mirror beads have no special advantage against CT). Whereas Kakashi did plot some smart plans against Obito, he still benefitted from his Kamui directly countering Obito's GG nature.

3. The amp Kakashi received from Rikudo Sennin dwarfs the one Itachi got from Edo Tensei. DMS Kakashi is leagues and bounds above normal Kakashi that's why I'm criticising transferring his tactical feats to Kakashi.

Incorporating abilities into plans is intelligence I agree, however that is different from your abilities being direct counters to your opponents; it takes away from your planning and adds to your abilities against that specific character.

Most importantly, match-ups _are_ part of portrayal, i.e Kisame was portrayed as a bad match up for Bee and Gai was portrayed as a bad match up for Kisame.


> I can dictate which is more impressive by the complexes in it's execution,


The problem with that is Kishimoto has shown us that less complexity could still sometimes be more impressive, it doesn't make much sense but it does point towards the author's intentions and how he wants us to understand and interpret that feat. An example of this would be Itachi vs CT.


> But Naruto didn't have any involvement in the fight leading up to the feint.


He was the target of Itachi's genjutsu instead of Kakashi.


> Shared vison didn't hinder Naruto in the slightest and Bee didn't even fight the animal summons.


It did, their attacks were countered.


> In their one on one boxland shit? Perhaps, but you know i'm talking about the team battle


Kakashi managed to identify Obito and break his mask, but Obito wasn't defeated. Nagato and Kabuto were.


> Kakashi's precaution of not looking into Itachi's eyes *is great enough* to make up for that restriction.


I'm sorry but Itachi couldn't use Amaterasu, Susano'o or Tsukiyomi. It's not great enough at all not even for Tsukiyomi because now Itachi had Amaterasu abd Susano'o which would aid him in attempting Tsukiyomi successfully.  Even if Kakashi still manages to avoid it it doesn't change the fact that Itachi's *chances* increase with MS.


> Please explain to me the difference between GG'ing Kurama in battle and while not in battle?
> 
> You said Itachi has better Genjutsu feats, well what are they? I count 2, one against Kurenai and one against Deidara, are these better then GG..ing Kurama?


I already explained all of this, everything is literally in my reply.


> So you at least concede that Ration clones are objectively better at deception then Exploding Clones?


Yes.


> A Bijuu Cloak is a chakra construct that protects the user, so if Kakshi can use Kamui inside one than it means his technique bypasses chakra constructs like Sussano.


Susano'o is not like the biju shroud.

Susano'o's objective is to protect the user without hindering his offense.

The shroud's objective is to enhance the user physically in all aspects.

Think of it like this: Susano'o is a wall in front of you, the shroud is armor that you wear. 


> Kamui has other advantages aside from speed. It also has a range advantage, quicker kill time and more utilities


Amaterasu is ranged too, unless they're gonna be fighting from 100s of meters away which I see no reason for. Your hiding like a mole tactic leaves Itachi room to create his own bunshin. Kill time is not relevant because in the event Kakashi is tagged he is as good as done anyway.

Overall I believe Kakashi has improved a lot since the beginning of the series but I still believe he hadn't surpassed Itachi.

In my opinion, there was a huge gap between him and Orochimaru in part 1 and then there was a huge gap between Itachi and Orochimaru. I don't think he's reached Itachi's level.


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## NamesClassified (May 17, 2018)

Apoligies for my late reply. Iv'e been busy and couldn't get on this cite until recently to reply. Anyway time to continue this dead thread.........





Shark said:


> @NamesClassified
> Yes there is such a thing as match-up advantage and it does have implications on a character's performance. If we look at Itachi's feats against Nagato and Obito for example, he used Kunai for the summons and his intelligence for CT (his Yata mirror beads have no special advantage against CT). Whereas Kakashi did plot some smart plans against Obito, he still benefitted from his Kamui directly countering Obito's GG nature.
> 
> 
> ...


Your forgetting that Kakashi's offensive ability with Kamui was originally negated completely when fighting Obito, He literally had to come up with a new unique method to effectively use his tech against the second strongest character around at that time on the fuckin fly.

If I give Kakashi matchup advantages, I have to believe that despite the manga placingo, despite the fact that the complexes that went into Kakashi's game plan was more mentally straining (by a bit), that Itachi's hitting the black ball feat is better because of portrayal? Match ups? These one word statements baffle me.

Like for real i've *seen *the fight. I *saw *both these guy's fight their matches and I saw Kakashi's trials in countering Kamui be more difficult then Itachi countering CT.

I want to preface that I get the merit of portrayal arguments, Kakashi sweating bullets when in the presence of Orochimaru is a clear indication of the difference in their power (despite Kakashi's willingness to face a stronger Itachi muddying this a bit). Aside from in your face moments like that though I don't understand how people can claim they understand the intention of Kishimoto when he wrote these two unrelated scenes.

Like how is an objective view on feats superseded by some vague speculation people have on Kishiomotos' intent when Kishimoto could probably give two shits who's more tactically impressive between these two fighters at their best? Am I the only person on the forum who feels this way? Am I the retard of the bunch?


NamesClassified said:


> We have to rank tactical feats based on the strength of the enemies they were used on





Shark said:


> *Yes, but not exclusively*.


I also have a question about this statement. If enemies aren't exclusively what decides superior portrayal then can comparisons between Kakashi's fight with Deva Path with Itachi fight with Nagato be valid?



Shark said:


> @NamesClassified
> 1. Itachi did have advantages due to being an edo, but Kakashi's advantage from his Kamui countering Obito's is much bigger.


Maybe? But Kakashi's Kamui didn't render him immune to any of Obito's techs(during the fight at least), while Edo Tensei makes Itachi essentially immortal. That automatically limited Kabuto to using Genjutsu or sealing in their fight.


Shark said:


> 3. The amp Kakashi received from Rikudo Sennin dwarfs the one Itachi got from Edo Tensei. DMS Kakashi is leagues and bounds above normal Kakashi that's why I'm criticising transferring his tactical feats to Kakashi.


DMS Kakashi is also combating someone leaps and bounds above the *entire Naruto Verse.* I don't see the issue in DMS Kakshi's feats if his enemy perfectly scaled to his power up and *Kaguya *certainly does this.


Shark said:


> Kakashi managed to identify Obito and break his mask, but Obito wasn't defeated. Nagato and Kabuto were.


But Obito's main techinque was countered though. Countering the enemies main techs have been the bulk of are recent discussion. I could argue that if Madara hadn't come Obito would have got smoked, but if you wish to disregard the feats because Kakashi didn't finish his opponent of then I can't counter it.

FYI Kakshi's feat aginst Deva Path is better anyway IMO, I just find it hard to rep it to you because "portrayal".


Shark said:


> It did, their attacks were countered.


Naruto's attacks were countered by an invisible Lizard, not the Animal Summons vision. I can concede that Killer Bee was.


Shark said:


> I think Itachi's is more impressive because the shared vision which was portrayed as a problem for Naruto and Bee (Itachi's superiors) was casually dealt with by Itachi.


Also why do you have to say it was "portrayed" to be a problem for them ? It wasn't portrayed as a problem for Bee, it *was *a problem for Bee.


Shark said:


> He was the target of Itachi's genjutsu instead of Kakashi.


I don't know what more I can say on this front. I have shown you Itachi stating that Kakashi can resist MS Genjutsu with emphases on *resist*, not get caught and Kai out. I've shown Kakashi resisting Obito's Genjutsu without Kaiing out, yet you think Finger GG will dice him?

Itachi has to successfully put someone under genjutsu before he himself can attack the GG'd individual IIRC. If Kakashi can resist GG's then Itachi's attack utterly fails. We'll have to come to an impasse on this specific issue I guess.


Shark said:


> Most importantly, match-ups _are_ part of portrayal, i.e Kisame was portrayed as a bad match up for Bee and Gai was portrayed as a bad match up for Kisame.


Remember how you informed me that I was getting hanged up on the definition of clone feinting? Well I feel your doing the same for the term matchup. We've seen the , we've seen that regardless of it's real world simplicity, Kakashi _had _to at least make a strategy in order to injure Obito with Kamui. He had to be in sync with all of Naruto's offensive plays, and time Kamui right when Obito faze.

How is this comparable to Hirudora oneshotting Daikoan in *one panel* and Kisame dicking on Killer Bee the *entire fight?* A restricted Bee might I add.


Shark said:


> I already explained all of this, everything is literally in my reply.





Shark said:


> *I'm talking about genjutsu feats in battle, Yagura and Kurama were not controlled in battle so that's irrelevant.*


This isn't an explanation IMO, it's just a plain statement that _says _Tobi's GG-ing Kurama outside of battle is irrelevant, but not explaining why. Does Sharigan Genjutsu work differently when in battle?


Shark said:


> Susano'o is not like the biju shroud.
> 
> Susano'o's objective is to protect the user without hindering his offense.
> 
> ...


Perhaps your statment debunks the Chakra Cloak portion of my argument, but is Naruto's Bijuu Mode shroud not the textbook definition of a wall? and most importantly is not under the control of Kakashi.

I can see if you argued that Kakashi warped the Gyuki right after he exited Kurama's Avatar, but I advocate for the former though. Kakashi warping Gyuki while in Kurama's avatar sounds more logical then him doing while getting thrown on the opposite end of Gyuki's location while his eye's aren't facing the Bijuu's location.


Shark said:


> Amaterasu is ranged too, unless they're gonna be fighting from 100s of meters away which I see no reason for. *Your hiding like a mole tactic leaves Itachi room to create his own bunshin.* Kill time is not relevant because in the event Kakashi is tagged he is as good as done anyway.


Create Bushins for what exactly? To feint the air surrounding him?


Shark said:


> Overall I believe Kakashi has improved a lot since the beginning of the series but I still believe he hadn't surpassed Itachi.
> 
> In my opinion, there was a huge gap between him and Orochimaru in part 1 and then there was a huge gap between Itachi and Orochimaru. I don't think he's reached Itachi's level.


I'll just quote what I said to Cosmos about my gripes with Orochimaru scaring Kakashi.


NamesClassified said:


> Orochirimaru got trashed by a genjutsu that would be next to useless to Kakashi, but I guess part 1 hype supersedes logic huh.
> 
> Did the fact that Kakashi was shitting bricks with Orochiramu *but had no reservations about facing the stronger Itachi *not tip you off that part 1 portrayal arguments are bullshit? At best you can say that Kakashi was a victim of misplaced hype.


Of course that inconsistency is irrelevant as Kakashi is undoubtedly weaker than Itachi or Orochimaru in part one, but it does render portrayal arguments moot.

I can't *objectivity *state that Kakashi has caught up with Itachi, but I can state that his confidence  has certainly increased. Kakashi having unwavering resolve at killing MS Sasuke, the man who murdered Orochimaru, Itachi and who is part of the S rank Akatstuki group is proof of this. Whether he could or not is a point of contention, but he certainly thought he had some chance.[/user]

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 18, 2018)

Kakashi can win if itachi stands there without moving. Kakashi is the same guy who couldnt percieve itachi's speed in part 1 and he himself announced itachi wasnt using 50% of his strength.


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## Buuhan (May 18, 2018)

Sage light said:


> Kakashi can win if itachi stands there without moving. Kakashi is the same guy who couldnt percieve itachi's speed in part 1


 Do you understand the difference between part 1 Kakashi and War Arc Kakashi?



> and he himself announced itachi wasnt using 50% of his strength.


 You mean Itachi had to use his most powerful MS justu to actually stop Kakashi and facilitate his escape right? You know because thats what happened.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (May 18, 2018)

Buuhan said:


> Do you understand the difference between part 1 Kakashi and War Arc Kakashi?
> 
> You mean Itachi had to use his most powerful MS justu to actually stop Kakashi and facilitate his escape right? You know because thats what happened.


 
This is without using the 50% of strength.


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## Sapherosth (May 18, 2018)

NamesClassified said:


> I can't *objectivity *state that Kakashi has caught up with Itachi, but I can state that his confidence  has certainly increased. Kakashi having unwavering resolve at killing MS Sasuke, the man who murdered Orochimaru, Itachi and who is part of the S rank Akatstuki group is proof of this. Whether he could or not is a point of contention, but he certainly thought he had some chance.[/user]




Really no different than Kakashi thinking he can take out "Madara" by himself.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## sabre320 (May 18, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Really no different than Kakashi thinking he can take out "Madara" by himself.


The dude was gonna warp the juubis head off if it wasnt for obito..


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## Sapherosth (May 19, 2018)

sabre320 said:


> The dude was gonna warp the juubis head off if it wasnt for obito..




Not sure how warping a mountain sized head that's not moving is evidence that Kakashi could have taken on Madara. 

Regardless though, we saw an MS Kakashi warping Deidara's explosion relatively fast. That same Kakashi stated that he alone cannot defeat Itachi.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 19, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Regardless though, we saw an MS Kakashi warping Deidara's explosion relatively fast. That same Kakashi stated that he alone cannot defeat Itachi.



Kakashi's Kamui usage improved by leaps and bounds since the very first time he used it in that battle, wouldn't have been the same result if he tried it against Shoten Itachi outright compared to after practicing on Deidara a couple of times.

It's shown very clearly how long it took to charge up, manifest and focus on that he first Kamui he showed.

No different than Sasuke unlocking higher states of Susanoo during a battle.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 19, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Not sure how warping a mountain sized head that's not moving is evidence that Kakashi could have taken on Madara..


Just like how Itachi using totsuka on two targets that were not moving is evidence to totsuka blitz for everyone.... 
Kappa

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (May 19, 2018)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kakashi's Kamui usage improved by leaps and bounds since the very first time he used it in that battle, wouldn't have been the same result if he tried it against Shoten Itachi outright compared to after practicing on Deidara a couple of times.
> 
> It's shown very clearly how long it took to charge up, manifest and focus on that he first Kamui he showed.
> 
> No different than Sasuke unlocking higher states of Susanoo during a battle.



That's not what happened when Kakashi warped Deidara's explosions, right? 

Unless you want to ignore that feat and only focus on his bad ones. No different than when Itachi or Sasuke charge for Amateratsu and then later used it without any charging. 

Saying his Kamui improved by leaps and bounds is like saying Sasuke's traditional Amateratsu is somehow hotter or faster than before. The only thing changed was shape manipulation in Sasuke's Amateratsu. 

Kamui doesn't have anything of that sort. 



PradyumnaR said:


> Just like how Itachi using totsuka on two targets that were not moving is evidence to totsuka blitz for everyone....
> Kappa



Tosuka did blitz Orochimaru. It's an undeniable fact. Oro was not distracted and nothing was obscuring his vision and it was a frontal assault. 

A case could be made for Nagato such as 1) movement limited 2) ST charge time 3) Kabuto being retarded. However, it doesn't change the fact that Itachi can set up scenarios where his Tosuka can land after a distraction.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Leaf Hurricane (May 19, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Tosuka did blitz Orochimaru. It's an undeniable fact. Oro was not distracted and nothing was obscuring his vision and it was a frontal assault.


OH yeah.. Sure.. Undeniable.. Everyone agrees here right . Your word is final.....
Everyone knows it" blitzed" orochimaru and "one shotted" Nagato...
Kappa
But yet somehow kamui warping so. Etching big is questionable.... When all totsuka ever did was" blitz " two Complety stationary targets....
Doesn't feel good when something like this is argued against Itachi fans isn't it..... Whose whole totsuka argument is powered by it taking out two completely stationary and unaware targets..... And suddenly It can tag guys moving as fast as A4.... But question Kakashi doing the same with Kamui....


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## cry77 (May 19, 2018)

Maverick04 said:


> Kishi never ever drew it's trajectory..If it really had one, then he couldve atleast shown it once..Not even here against Cerberus..Zetsu clearly states it that it appears on the target..Its definitely not instant though..None of the MS jutsus are instant..It requires some chakra buildup in the eye before being executed.
> 
> 
> He did though..He surrounded the ribcage susanoo with Enton flames against raikage


Well, amaterasu clearly has SOME form of trajectory. It might "spawn" on the target, but if that target dodges it moves on, implying at least some form of movement.

When A dodged it, had there been no movement, the amaterasu would have burst into flames anyways, but it didnt. Instead it moved on to hit the samurai BEHIND A.


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## NamesClassified (May 21, 2018)

Sapherosth said:


> Really no different than Kakashi thinking he can take out "Madara" by himself.


Yes, he believed he could warp a stationary "Madara" with a surprise Kamui. If only he knew who "Madara" actually was.


Anyway might point is he had a benchmark for Sasuke in his mind. The man killed Itachi the  and Orochimaru, the man who had .

I'd just like to think that hubris hadn't gotten hold of the otherwise level headed Kakashi and he actually believed he gotten stronger before he'd engage such a foe. If you disagree then power to you.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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