# Itachi vs Obito



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 13, 2013)

*Two scenarios*


*Spoiler*: _Scenario 1_ 





This is while Itachi was alive. Before doing anything with Sasuke, Itachi decides take out "Madara". This is Itachi when he was alive, so sick Itachi I guess. 

*Area and distance:* as it is here; Obito is where he is and Itachi is where Kabuto was.

*State of Mind:* 
Itachi wants to kill Obito.
Obito wants to injure Itachi (similar to what he did to Konan) and use his high level Genjutsu to make Itachi act according to plan.
*In other words* Itachi wants to kill and Obito wants Itachi alive, but weak enough for him to easily use Genjutsu him (the sort he used to control Konan and Yagura). Note that Obito can patch Itachi up like he did to a near death Sasuke.

*Knowledge:* 
_Itachi:_ whatever he knew about Obito/"Madara" during the Hunt for Itachi arc.

_Obito:_ whatever he knew about Itachi. Given his knowledge on the MS, you're allowed to assume he has full knowledge.

*Conditions:* 

No Koto (this takes place after Naruto took it). 
Obito is willing to use any Kinjutsu if he deems it necessary; basically what Madara taught him. Assume the Inyouton jutsu is Izanagi, meaning you're allowed to assume what the Uchiha Kinjutsu is (aside from Izanagi).






*Spoiler*: _Scenario 2_ 





This after Edo Itachi left Naruto and Bee. Before he ran into Sasuke, Itachi found Obito aka "Madara". This is Edo Itachi and Rinnegan Obito with the fan- but without any Pain bodies. 

*Area and distance:* as it is here; Obito is where he is and Itachi is where Kabuto was.

*State of Mind:* 
Itachi wants to kill Obito.
Obito wants to kill Itachi. He is also willing to use Itachi to test his new Rinnegan.
*In other words* both want the other dead.

*Knowledge:* 
_Itachi:_ whatever he knew about Obito/"Madara" during the war arc. Also if he notices the Rinnegan (whether if he sees it, or if Obito uses one of its powers), he'll have the knowledge of his previous battle with Nagato. 

_Obito:_ whatever he knew about Itachi. Given his knowledge on the MS, you're allowed to assume he has full knowledge. However he also knows Itachi is an Edo Tensei.

*Conditions:* 

No Koto (for obvious reasons at this point). 
Obito is willing to use any Kinjutsu if he deems it necessary; basically what Madara taught him. Assume the Inyouton jutsu is Izanagi, meaning you're allowed to assume what the Uchiha Kinjutsu is (aside from Izanagi).
Itachi will only think of attempting Izanami if he feels his three MS jutsu won't do the job. 





How does Itachi fair with these minor detours?


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## Senjuclan (May 13, 2013)

Itachi loses in both scenarios. Without knowledge of the time limitations of Tobi's jutsu, he can't outsmart him. All his major jutsus are nullified by "kamui". Base Itachi is completely useless against Tobi with a sharingan. Taijutsu is nullified by space-time ninjutsu. His ninjutsu is useless due to the sharingan. MS jutsus are also useless. Tsukuyomi won't be a difference maker because he is fighting a Uchiha. Susano'o and amaterasu are countered with space-time ninjutsu. In the end, Itachi has very very little chance to beat Obito. I would say in scenario, Tobi wins 9/10 times and in scenario 2 he wins 10/10 times


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## Trojan (May 13, 2013)

Itachi admit that Obito stronger than him. So Obito shall win both of these. 
and even without that I can't see what Itachi can do against him! 

all of his Genjutsu are useless, due to the MS that Obito has, 
Obito is also better than Itachi in weapons. 
Obito is much stronger in Ninjutsu as we saw.
Itachi is not fast enough to land any hit on Obito. 
Obito can go through Susanoo, so it's useless. 

the Rinngen is not necessary for Obito to win.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 13, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Itachi admit that Obito stronger than him. So Obito shall win both of these.
> and even without that I can't see what Itachi can do against him!
> 
> all of his Genjutsu are useless, due to the MS that Obito has,
> ...



This. Obito rapes.


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## XxX yellowflash 47 XxX (May 13, 2013)

itachi wins the first scenario because of him trying to get itachi into a genjustu thats just not gonna work even so im sure he would be able to get out of it. and itachi is extremely smart obito even stated itachi is one of the few people that could actually beat him. he could move through itachi's moves for a while but afterwards just as minato did he will counter it and use susanno to keep obito from landing an attack on him then sealing him up.


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## Nikushimi (May 13, 2013)

Itachi wins the first scenario more often than not. Izanami gives him a decisive advantage against Obito, whose limited moveset affords the Jutsu a greater chance of being prepared over the course of their fight. If Itachi can force Obito to use Izanagi by hitting him with Amaterasu, then he can virtually guarantee his ability to set up Izanami.

The outcome of the second scenario depends entirely upon what Obito can do with the Rinnegan, without Gedo Mazo and his Jinchuuriki Pain available. If his powers are anything like Nagato's, then he wins pretty decisively by using Kamui to faze through incoming attacks and rip Edo Itachi's soul out with Ningendou, negating any of his Ninjutsu or physical attacks with Fujutsu Kyuin and Shinra Tensei (or simply fazing body parts through them with Kamui). Izanami is still Itachi's only shot at victory, but he's not going to get a chance to set it up unless he can manage to clone feint before Obito gets a hold of him. If that happens, he has a shot as long as he doesn't try to take Obito on directly. But if Obito can raze the whole battlefield with something like Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei, then hiding isn't going to be an option; if Itachi's caught in the later, Obito can simply faze through and rip his soul out while he's buried.


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## ShenLong Kazama (May 13, 2013)

Obito stomps.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 13, 2013)

> second scenario depends entirely upon what Obito can do with the Rinnegan



Madara taught him the Six Paths jutsu and he's shown proficiency with the Outer Path. In other words, we can assume he can do what Nagato can do alongside his own showings.


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

Clones people. Why do people always forget Itachi can use clones?

If Itachi uses a clone, Kamui can be nullified and turned against Obito (like how Kakashi got a few free strikes in against Tobi when he was absorbed the first time, yet Tobi legitimately said he could have killed him), and Itachi is smart enough to send a clone in first without knowledge (this is literally what he did to Hebi Sasuke and Part 2 Naruto after all). The ability to switch with a clone faster than EMS can see or Perfect Sage snake senses can catch is a great boon to him in his fight.

Plus, his clones can even explode without warning, and we've seen how much that damages Obito even when Obito is able to absorb some of the explosion that he saw coming ahead of time. Bunshin Daibakuha may actually kill him.

If Obito decides to actually *use *the Rinnengan instead of just relying on Kamui (like he does EVEN NOW) then he might win the second scenario, but as long as he forces himself to be a one-trick pony with Kamui, Itachi can deal with him via clones.


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## richard lewis (May 13, 2013)

I'm not really sure what kind of effect izanami will have on obito, considering he knows about izangi he probably knows about izanami too. I would imagine he would have some kind of counter to it, also izanami on traps you until you learn to correct your actions "I guess?" so idk what kind affect it will have on obito since most of his actions are pure in nature. 

Either way the issue I see obito having is if he turns solid or tries to warp itachi itachi could probably amaterasu him b4 he gets the chance. So finding a way to kill him will be difficult and for scenario 1 trying to capture him will be near impossible. scenario 1 im 50/50 on depending on what kind of effect izanami has on obito. Scenario 2 depends on obito's ability to use the renningan, if he can use it on nagato's lvl he rapes, if he can only use feats from the manga then im 50/50 yet again contingent upon the effect izanami has on him.


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## Nikushimi (May 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara taught him the Six Paths jutsu and he's shown proficiency with the Outer Path. In other words, we can assume he can do what Nagato can do alongside his own showings.



We shouldn't just assume that. But if that's what you want us to assume for this match, then Obito wins the second match.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 13, 2013)

Scenario 1:

I'm going with Obito. Obito will use Kamui to see what Itachi can do before deciding to opt for any Kinjutsu, Katon or Mokuton. Itachi thinking he's fighting thee Madara Uchiha will overestimate Obito and probably will jump to the MS. 

Overall Obito's only threat is Amaterasu, which apparently he can notice. So all he has to do is what he did to Fuu and Tourne (disappear) and Itachi's focus gets disturbed. 

Itachi may opt for Izanami, but the thing is Obito will try to grab Itachi. Once that happens there's no way it will happen a second time. 
I don't think anything beyond Kamui is needed here. Once Obito gets Itachi into his dimension (after making Itachi tire himself out) then he'll easily be able to just Genjutsu on him after teleporting him; he has the option to use Mokuton to restrain him if he really feels he needs it.

Scenario 2:

The above. Plus Obito is generally stronger now and has the fan, so he can save abilities like Tendo and Shurado for times when they're needed most. Also there's the idea of the inevitable Shinra Tensei spam that could be used seeing as Kamui compensates for ST's cool down period.



Nikushimi said:


> We shouldn't just assume that. But if that's what you want us to assume for this match, then Obito wins the second match.



Six Paths jutsu and Rinnegan generally points to the Rinnegan jutsu.


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## Punished Pathos (May 13, 2013)

Pre-Rinnegan Obito was portrayed stronger than Itachi.
This debate has no grounds.


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

Pathos Grim said:


> Pre-Rinnegan Obito was portrayed stronger than Itachi.
> This debate has no grounds.


If by "portryaed as stronger" you mean, "being held back from his ambitions by a sick and dying man despite not caring about the prescence of 2 Hokage previously" then sure, Pre Rinnengan Obito was _*totally *_portrayed to be stronger than Itachi.

Still don't see what Pre-Rinnengan Obito does if Itachi trades places with an explosive clone. We all saw how that went with Konan, the dude got an arm blasted off while defending from an explosion he saw coming.

Hell, non-Exploding Bunshin would be worse, since it can just shank him in the Kamui dimension like Obito flat out admitted Kakashi had the opportunity to do.


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## Nikushimi (May 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Overall Obito's only threat is Amaterasu, which apparently he can notice. So all he has to do is what he did to Fuu and Tourne (disappear) and Itachi's focus gets disturbed.



Amaterasu isn't a threat to Obito as long as he has Izanagi. The only thing it's good for is provoking that Jutsu so Itachi gets a chance to set up Izanami.



> Itachi may opt for Izanami, but the thing is Obito will try to grab Itachi. Once that happens there's no way it will happen a second time.



Why not? Unless Obito gets Itachi on the first try, he's going to try again at some point. If it turns out to be a clone twice in a row, Izanami.



> I don't think anything beyond Kamui is needed here. Once Obito gets Itachi into his dimension (after making Itachi tire himself out) then he'll easily be able to just Genjutsu on him after teleporting him; he has the option to use Mokuton to restrain him if he really feels he needs it.



Itachi isn't someone of Konan's level and, unlike her, he has a very powerful Doujutsu; there's no guarantee that he will become susceptible to Obito's Genjutsu if he is weakened. This is the same man who was able to maintain Susano'o and implant Amaterasu in Sasuke until he dropped dead from a combination of exhaustion and (presumably) health complications.

If nothing else, Itachi could just do that again and deny Obito the opportunity to interrogate him.



> Scenario 2:
> 
> The above. Plus Obito is generally stronger now and has the fan, so he can save abilities like Tendo and Shurado for times when they're needed most. Also there's the idea of the inevitable Shinra Tensei spam that could be used seeing as Kamui compensates for ST's cool down period.



If you didn't think Itachi stood a chance, why even make this thread? Why make two seperate scenarioes when you don't think he's capable of winning either?



> Six Paths jutsu and Rinnegan generally points to the Rinnegan jutsu.



However, that doesn't tell us anything about his capabilities with those Jutsu. There may also be unforeseen complications that prevent him from using the Rinnegan's Jutsu. There could be any number of problems with his ability to use them; what's important is that we have not seen him demonstrate these powers yet, so there is nothing we have to go on except the Jutsu as they were showcased by Pain/Nagato, who is not Obito.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 13, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> If by "portryaed as stronger" you mean, "being held back from his ambitions by a sick and dying man despite not caring about the prescence of 2 Hokage previously" then sure, Pre Rinnengan Obito was _*totally *_portrayed to be stronger than Itachi.
> 
> Still don't see what Pre-Rinnengan Obito does if Itachi trades places with an explosive clone. We all saw how that went with Konan, the dude got an arm blasted off while defending from an explosion he saw coming.
> 
> Hell, non-Exploding Bunshin would be worse, since it can just shank him in the Kamui dimension like Obito flat out admitted Kakashi had the opportunity to do.



Indeed he's right. A sick Itachi basically said he needed the EMS to surpass the Madara he knew. The Madara he knew was a pre-Rinnegan Obito, of whom he had limited knowledge of. 

Bearing in mind Zetsu suggested the *only* distinction between Itachi sickly form and healthy form was a slight difference in speed and coughing blood. In other words said portrayal applies to a healthy Itachi too given that he likely knew of "Madara" before he got ill.

-------------------------------------------------

Ideally ITT, though you're allowed to use portrayal, I'd recommend feats because arguing for Itachi in a portrayal debate is a losing battle. 

Konan isn't generalisable to Itachi. Obito admitted to underestimating Konan; do you think he's going to underestimate Itachi? Especially as your notion basically suggests Itachi threatened Obito more than two Hokage?

The Kakashi situation isn't generalisable either seeing as he had Naruto's help. Although the clone idea is plausible, what are the chances of Obito making a rookie mistake when he realises *one* foe is using Bunshins? With Kakashi-Naruto it was different being two foes and all. However the moment he sees a second Itachi after absorbing one, the implications will be clear to him and nothing stops him from warping to his dimension and taking care of the clone.


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## Nikushimi (May 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Indeed he's right. A sick Itachi basically said he needed the EMS to surpass the Madara he knew. The Madara he knew was a pre-Rinnegan Obito, of whom he had limited knowledge of.



That depends entirely upon which "Madara" Itachi meant to surpass by obtaining EMS.



> Bearing in mind Zetsu suggested the *only* distinction between Itachi sickly form and healthy form was a slight difference in speed and coughing blood. In other words said portrayal applies to a healthy Itachi too given that he likely knew of "Madara" before he got ill.



That's inaccurate.

Zetsu said that Itachi wasn't moving or attacking normally, that he was coughing up blood, and that he was failing to avoid attacks he should've been able to avoid *easily*. He went on further and stated that Itachi may have sustained some *severe* injury before Sasuke showed up.

Although the exact nature of it may still be open for debate, the difference between sick Itachi and healthy Itachi was clearly not a slight one.

EDIT: Of course, Zetsu didn't know that Itachi was holding back at the time, either.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 13, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Amaterasu isn't a threat to Obito as long as he has Izanagi. The only thing it's good for is provoking that Jutsu so Itachi gets a chance to set up Izanami.



If Itachi can get to know about it, why not. However Itachi has to get to know about it and survive for long enough.



> Why not? Unless Obito gets Itachi on the first try, he's going to try again at some point. If it turns out to be a clone twice in a row, Izanami.



If Obito gets Itachi on the first try, it is over. It is plausible, what you suggest. However Obito does have knowledge on Itachi's capabilities and will tailor his fighting style to that. Bunshin subs are part of Itachi's style.



> Itachi isn't someone of Konan's level and, unlike her, he has a very powerful Doujutsu; there's no guarantee that he will become susceptible to Obito's Genjutsu if he is weakened. This is the same man who was able to maintain Susano'o and implant Amaterasu in Sasuke until he dropped dead from a combination of exhaustion and (presumably) health complications.
> 
> If nothing else, Itachi could just do that again and deny Obito the opportunity to interrogate him.



Unlike Konan, Itachi also lacks an efficient means to exploit Kamui. If he does he'll encourage jutsu like Mokuton, Katon and possibly even the Uchiha Kinjutsu Madara taught him. So it is a lose-lose here.

Obito was able to get Bijuu with his base Sharingan as well as control Jinchuriki outright. He controlled Yagura and that prowess was compared to Shisui, the strongest Genjutsu user. So nothing suggests Itachi will be able to do much once he's weakened. 

Sure he could die. And Obito loses the chance to make Itachi act according to plan. Though you can argue that, given the timeline of this scenario, a dead Itachi could be taken to Pain, revived and then just be put under Genjutsu then.



> If you didn't think Itachi stood a chance, why even make this thread? Why make two seperate scenarioes when you don't think he's capable of winning either?



My opinion may differ from others, plus these two were some "what if" scenarios I thought would be interesting to discuss. 



> However, that doesn't tell us anything about his capabilities with those Jutsu. There may also be unforeseen complications that prevent him from using the Rinnegan's Jutsu. There could be any number of problems with his ability to use them; what's important is that we have not seen him demonstrate these powers yet, so there is nothing we have to go on except the Jutsu as they were showcased by Pain/Nagato, who is not Obito.



If we go by portrayal, then we're to believe he's just as skilled. Perhaps even more so than Pain-Nagato given his superior control over the Rinnegan power that stands out the most (the Outer Path).



Nikushimi said:


> That depends entirely upon which "Madara" Itachi meant to surpass by obtaining EMS.



At that point a lot of people, even Itachi, were convinced that Obito was "Madara". Apparently his conclusion was he needed the EMS to surpass "Madara".



> That's inaccurate.
> 
> Zetsu said that Itachi wasn't moving or attacking normally, that he was coughing up blood, and that he was failing to avoid attacks he should've been able to avoid *easily*. He went on further and stated that Itachi may have sustained some *severe* injury before Sasuke showed up.
> 
> ...



He said Itachi wasn't himself. However Zetsu expanded on this point by saying he coughed blood and avoided attacks he should've easily dodged -- note we have two reference points i.e. the manga panels Zetsu had in mind. So Itachi who is "himself" wouldn't cough blood and would be able to easily dodge a shuriken jutsu. 

Any injury which causes someone to be slower than normal and makes them cough blood mid-battle can be a product of a severe injury beforehand as Zetsu logically inferred with the information he had. Obito revealed the actual cause though: sickness.

Granted it is a huge drawback to have slower movements and to be coughing blood. However with them remedied I wouldn't say Itachi jumps miles above his actual tier. The only healthy Itachi that does that is Edo Itachi who has other benefits too.


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## Nikushimi (May 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Itachi can get to know about it, why not. However Itachi has to get to know about it and survive for long enough.



I don't imagine something like Izanagi would go unnoticed by Itachi. Obito only fooled Konan with it because she literally dropped him into an exploding ocean and lost visual on him. Plus, as you said, Itachi will be on his guard, believing that Obito is Madara.



> If Obito gets Itachi on the first try, it is over. It is plausible, what you suggest. However Obito does have knowledge on Itachi's capabilities and will tailor his fighting style to that. Bunshin subs are part of Itachi's style.



Bunshin feints are a part of Naruto's style, too. Yet how many shinobi have fallen for them anyway? Itachi himself has fallen for clone feints. He fell for Sasuke's Snake Bulimia, too, even though he apparently expected that Sasuke could use it.

Knowing that Itachi's capable of using clones is one thing. Knowing exactly when he does it and which one is the fake... That's entirely different.



> Unlike Konan, Itachi also lacks an efficient means to exploit Kamui. If he does he'll encourage jutsu like Mokuton, Katon and possibly even the Uchiha Kinjutsu Madara taught him. So it is a lose-lose here.



Itachi can block Mokuton and Katon using Susano'o. The only Uchiha Kinjutsu I know of are Izanagi and Izanami; Obito's Izanami would require preparation just like Itachi's, and Itachi could very well use Obito's own preparations to cast Izanami on him instead (it depends who casts it first). Izanami wouldn't really make sense for Obito to use, either, as it requires a considerable degree of personal risk and Obito still has the ability to win without it. That means it is far more likely he will use Izanagi if he opts for using Uchiha Kinjutsu, although it certainly depends on what the circumstances call for (Obito isn't going to just throw away either of his eyes to show off a Kinjutsu). Obito also has not shown Izanami and I don't believe that he is capable of using it, anyway.

If Obito does use Izanagi, he'll probably be pretty lax about taking hits just like Danzou was. So Itachi just needs to land a killing-blow twice during their exchange; Obito will expect to respawn and counterattack, only to find himself stuck in a mental hamster wheel after the second hit.



> Obito was able to get Bijuu with his base Sharingan as well as control Jinchuriki outright. He controlled Yagura and that prowess was compared to Shisui, the strongest Genjutsu user. So nothing suggests Itachi will be able to do much once he's weakened.



The thing is, we don't know that Obito controlled Yagura himself. He may have had another Sharingan capable of Kotoamatsukami (Kagami's?) or maybe he called in Shisui or Danzou to do him a favor.

There's literally no other Genjutsu we know of (at this point) that is capable of controlling a perfect Jinchuuriki besides Kotoamatsukami. It either had to be that or something new; if it's the latter, then that's impossible to address right now because we don't know the exact powers or limitations of the Genjutsu yet.

If Obito were genuinely capable of using Kotoamatsukami himself (or any Genjutsu like it), then obviously there's nothing Konan could've done to stop him from brainwashing her right at the moment of their encounter, whether she was weakened or not. The same would be true for Itachi. Or Minato. Or Kakashi. Or Naruto, for that matter.

So I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say that Obito is capable of no such Genjutsu; my money's on outside assistance or some other external gimmick that doesn't come standard with Obito's moveset.



> Sure he could die. And Obito loses the chance to make Itachi act according to plan. Though you can argue that, given the timeline of this scenario, a dead Itachi could be taken to Pain, revived and then just be put under Genjutsu then.



Using Gedou Rinne Tensei on Itachi would fuck up the plan to revive Madara. And then there's nothing stopping Itachi from fighting to the bitter end all over again (plus he gets a second chance to beat Obito, who may still be weakened and/or minus an eye from their first battle).



> If we go by portrayal, then we're to believe he's just as skilled. Perhaps even more so than Pain-Nagato given his superior control over the Rinnegan power that stands out the most (the Outer Path).



However, there may be complications, as I said. Nagato grew up with the Rinnegan; he went from having wild black-outs that he couldn't control to full mastery of the paths. Obito has had no such luxury, regardless of whatever training he received from Madara. Nagato is also an Uzumaki with naturally-monstrous stamina; Obito is an Uchiha whose body has been saturated with Hashirama semen. There may be significant differences in what they are able to handle. Or maybe Obito's Frankenstein's monster body with the Zetsu parts is just not as compatible with the Rinnegan. We don't know; that's why we shouldn't just assume based on their general strength. It's suspicious that Obito has not even attempted to make use of these paths so far, don't you think?



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> At that point a lot of people, even Itachi, were convinced that Obito was "Madara". Apparently his conclusion was he needed the EMS to surpass "Madara".



Be that as it may, he could've been talking about surpassing Madara's "prime"; he didn't specify.



> He said Itachi wasn't himself. However Zetsu expanded on this point by saying he coughed blood and avoided attacks he should've easily dodged -- note we have two reference points i.e. the manga panels Zetsu had in mind. So Itachi who is "himself" wouldn't cough blood and would be able to easily dodge a shuriken jutsu.
> 
> Any injury which causes someone to be slower than normal and makes them cough blood mid-battle can be a product of a severe injury beforehand as Zetsu logically inferred with the information he had. Obito revealed the actual cause though: sickness.
> 
> Granted it is a huge drawback to have slower movements and to be coughing blood. However with them remedied I wouldn't say Itachi jumps miles above his actual tier. The only healthy Itachi that does that is Edo Itachi who has other benefits too.



Zetsu also said that Itachi hadn't been attacking normally, although that may have simply been another observation based on his movement.


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## Baroxio (May 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Indeed he's right. A sick Itachi basically said he needed the EMS to surpass the Madara he knew. The Madara he knew was a pre-Rinnegan Obito, of whom he had limited knowledge of.
> 
> Bearing in mind Zetsu suggested the *only* distinction between Itachi sickly form and healthy form was a slight difference in speed and coughing blood. In other words said portrayal applies to a healthy Itachi too given that he likely knew of "Madara" before he got ill.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to argue portrayal, by all means believe in that if you wish. I will however, argue feats.

We saw what happened when Obito attempted to go back into Kamui dimension while Kakashi was there. He got bitch-slapped in the face mid-materialization and Kakashi hopped back to the real world with no problem.

If Itachi's clone is sucked in and he attempts to go in after it, Itachi will Kunai blitz the motionless Obito as easily as he Kunai-blitzed Orochimaru in their first meeting. Only this time it may not be his arm that gets cut off.

Furthermore, even if we assume he gets into his dimension safely without being shanked, Pre Rinnengan Obito has nothing to effectively deal with Itachi's bunshin inside Kamui dimension. He can't use Kamui or risk getting shanked by the real Itachi, he can't fire off weapons from his eyes, his Katon doesn't get Kamui wind to boost it up to ridiculous levels (and Itachi's bunshin should be able to fire off Water Dragons anyway). Seriously, without Kamui Obito's crap. The most he can do is attempt to fire off Mokuton Sashiki projectiles at Itachi, who has Sharingan and is clearly the best at projectile countering. Not a very fair match for Obito, IMO.

Featwise, Itachi takes it if he uses clones, and Obito takes this if he uses Rinnengan. The difference is, Itachi has shown a willingness to use clones in almost all of his major battles whereas Obito has yet to actually use the Rinnengan for anything other than Black Rods and their relating Chakra chains (even then, they all come from his Kamui eye and are likely prepped pre-battle, so...yeah).


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## Rocky (May 13, 2013)

If Itachi sends a clone to the Kamui dimension, Obito goes there himself and fries Itachi with his Madara level Katon Ninjutsu. Obito doesn't need the dimensional boost to match Madara in scale.

Not that a Kunai would kill Obito anyway, not if he survived Raikiri without feeling anything.


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## FlamingRain (May 13, 2013)

That wasn't a genjutsu?


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## Rocky (May 13, 2013)

I don't know, I didn't think it was.


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## Kai (May 13, 2013)

In the scenario where Tobi wields his gunbai, he was destroying Naruto's KCM clones no more than casually in close quarters while later displaying the ability to launch the war fan long distances to evade Naruto's extensive chakra arms and protecting Gedo Mazo.

Itachi's clones are going to do what exactly? Tobi's out of his league.


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## Trojan (May 13, 2013)

> Itachi's *clones* are going to do what exactly? Tobi's out of his league.



clones? he can do that?
I really don't remember him doing more than 1 clone a battle!


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## FlamingRain (May 13, 2013)

Itachi gets him with _Bunshin Daibakuha_ working as his version of Konan's explosive bombs. 

But if that was the real Obito that just ignored _Raikiri_ and not a genjutsu. . .well nevermind.


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## Bonly (May 13, 2013)

Itachi gets sucked up. He doesn't have the speed to hurt Obito.


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## Shattering (May 14, 2013)

*Scenario 1*

This is a canon victory for Itachi, Obito was afraid of him, Itachi didn't kill him because he thought he was EMS Madara not MS Obito, Izanami gives him the edge and Itachi has had the initiative in all his battles, if we follow VIZ translation, the moment Obito touches Itachi is over unless Obito kills him instantly 

Itachi activates Izanami and Obito is pretty much done.


*Scenario 2*

Gedo Mazo sucks a little bit, unless his punchs can do what a  bijuu Dama couldn't (destroy stage 4 susano'o) he is pretty much useless since Itachi as an Edo can keep it up all the time.

And then we have the scenario we had beore, Itachi vs Obito since Obito's rinnegan is useless, but this time Itachi is an Edo, sorry Obito.

Itachi could even act like a bitch and activate ribcage Susano'o and cover it with amaterasu flames, come and touch it Obito


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi wins the first scenario more often than not. Izanami gives him a decisive advantage against Obito, whose limited moveset affords the Jutsu a greater chance of being prepared over the course of their fight. If Itachi can force Obito to use Izanagi by hitting him with Amaterasu, then he can virtually guarantee his ability to set up Izanami.
> 
> The outcome of the second scenario depends entirely upon what Obito can do with the Rinnegan, without Gedo Mazo and his Jinchuuriki Pain available. If his powers are anything like Nagato's, then he wins pretty decisively by using Kamui to faze through incoming attacks and rip Edo Itachi's soul out with Ningendou, negating any of his Ninjutsu or physical attacks with Fujutsu Kyuin and Shinra Tensei (or simply fazing body parts through them with Kamui). Izanami is still Itachi's only shot at victory, but he's not going to get a chance to set it up unless he can manage to clone feint before Obito gets a hold of him. If that happens, he has a shot as long as he doesn't try to take Obito on directly. But if Obito can raze the whole battlefield with something like Shinra Tensei or Chibaku Tensei, then hiding isn't going to be an option; if Itachi's caught in the later, Obito can simply faze through and rip his soul out while he's buried.



This is spot on.

First scenario will go to Itachi more often than not. He'd probably only lose scenarios where his disease randomly kicks in and he collapses in the middle of the engagement or some shit.
Other than that, he gets a comfortable win with with Izanami.


Second scenario totally depends on Obito's capabilities with the rinnegan.
Although since this is battledome and we go by what we know and saw, Obito's Rinnegan is limited to Human & outer paths.

So Itachi'd basically destroy Obito here, since he is not sick.


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## Trojan (May 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> This is spot on.
> 
> First scenario will go to Itachi more often than not. He'd probably only lose scenarios where his disease randomly kicks in and he collapses in the middle of the engagement or some shit.
> Other than that, he gets a comfortable win with with* Izanami.*
> ...



1- Can you explain to me How exactly would Itachi touch Obito, TWICE which MUST be the same?
because I hardly see him touch Obito at all! Itachi himself said it's not a jutsu that used in battle
If I'm not mistaken! he just was lucky because he's an edo and there is Sasuke to save his a$$. @.@

Furthermore, Obito is Itachi's teacher he should know about all Itachi's power, since he's his
teacher.

2-


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## Kai (May 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Itachi could even act like a bitch and activate ribcage Susano'o and cover it with amaterasu flames, come and touch it Obito


Actually he can't; Itachi doesn't possess Sasuke's ability of Enton.


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## Shattering (May 14, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Can you explain to me How exactly would Itachi touch Obito, TWICE which MUST be the same?
> because I hardly see him touch Obito at all! Itachi himself said it's not a jutsu that used in battle
> If I'm not mistaken! he just was lucky because he's an edo and there is Sasuke to save his a$$. @.@
> 
> ...



Izanami doesn't need to repeat the same situation twice, this is a misconception that VIZ cleared up a while ago, you  record the sensations both you and the target are feeling at the moment and then *use your ocular powers* to recreate it, in other words, a genjutsu, Itachi casted Izanami on Kabuto in chapter 580 the first time Kabuto stabbed him, from there on everything was a genjutsu.





(btw mods these scans are from an older post, no new uploads or whatever)

And please, Obito teaching Itachi? how can sombody still believe that?  everything was a lie from Itachi to explain Sasuke who should be his next target, Itachi and Obito were enemies, it is stupid to believe that Obito teached something to Itachi, Itachi learned things from himself or maybe Shisui but Obito?  



Kai said:


> Actually he can't; Itachi doesn't possess Sasuke's ability of Enton.



He doesn't need it, just target susano'o with amaterasu and let it burn while he keeps susano'o up.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Izanami doesn't need to repeat the same situation twice, this is a misconception that VIZ cleared up a while ago, you  record the sensations both you and the target are feeling at the moment and then *use your ocular powers* to recreate it, in other words, a genjutsu, Itachi casted Izanami on Kabuto in chapter 580 the first time Kabuto stabbed him, from there on everything was a genjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Completely wrong. You must repeat the action, if not why the Sharingan disappears only after Itachi does the same act for the 2nd time?

Even Itachi says that he recreate the exact feelings, not using ocluar power. If Izanami is that easy Itachi won't spend so much time to let Kabuto spam his SM techs......

And it doesn't change the fact that Obito learns everything from Madara, he knows clearly what an Uchiha can do. What Itachi can do is sth Obito must know while Itachi is unclear about Obito's abilities.


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## IchLiebe (May 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Izanami doesn't need to repeat the same situation twice, this is a misconception that VIZ cleared up a while ago, you  record the sensations both you and the target are feeling at the moment and then *use your ocular powers* to recreate it, in other words, a genjutsu, Itachi casted Izanami on Kabuto in chapter 580 the first time Kabuto stabbed him, from there on everything was a genjutsu.



It's not a genjutsu. When everything started to loop is when the genjutsu happened. The ocular powers  to recreate it is when you have the same thing happen. They can copy shit with sharingan, and knowing and keeping that in mind, he uses prediction to get it to happen again. So he gets stabbed, sharingan tell him how it happened and shit, he recreates it using that knowledge. No genjutsu.


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## Shattering (May 14, 2013)

Of course of couse, it's not like if Itachi stated it, nono.



Legendary Itachi said:


> Completely wrong. You must repeat the action, if not why the Sharingan disappears only after Itachi does the same act for the 2nd time?
> 
> Even Itachi says that he recreate the exact feelings, not using ocluar power. If Izanami is that easy Itachi won't spend so much time to let Kabuto spam his SM techs......
> 
> And it doesn't change the fact that Obito learns everything from Madara, he knows clearly what an Uchiha can do. What Itachi can do is sth Obito must know while Itachi is unclear about Obito's abilities.



Hi hater, It's like Izanagi, you don't go blind when you use it, it happens later and take some time depending on the user, with Izanami you go blind once the loop is already declared or marked, whatever you wanna call it, not when you cast it.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 14, 2013)

Shattering said:


> Hi hater, It's is like Izanagi, you don't go blind when you use it, it happens later and take some time depending on the user, with Izanami you go blind once the loop is already declared or marked, whatever you wanna call it not when you cast it.



You use your ocular power to record down the feeling scene first, then you recreate the same act and record down again with ocular power. Then the opponent is trapped into the time loop or you say Genjutsu. That's how the whole Izanami works. And you will lose your eye once you complete the 2nd step.

Which means that you must perform the same act twice in order to start the loop of Izanami, and this is not that easy, not to say Obito must have intel on Izanami......


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## insane111 (May 14, 2013)

Considering all Obito has to do is touch Itachi to instantly win, I don't see how he has a chance. All Obito has to do is engage him in taijutsu, and without knowledge Itachi wouldn't suspect to avoid it.

Now if Itachi started with full knowledge of Kamui, this would be a much more interesting fight.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I don't imagine something like Izanagi would go unnoticed by Itachi. Obito only fooled Konan with it because she literally dropped him into an exploding ocean and lost visual on him. Plus, as you said, Itachi will be on his guard, believing that Obito is Madara.



It goes unnoticed unless it is spammed Danzo style. If someone like Obito the moment it is noticed, it'll be the end as Obito would've timed it well. However to encourage Izanagi is to push Obito in a corner, but Itachi's arsenal lacks that nature. 
Itachi will be on his guard, no doubt. He won't automatically know about jutsu he doesn't know Obito/"Madara" lacks. Or would be forced to use. As far as he knows, "Madara" hasn't taken Senju DNA.



> Bunshin feints are a part of Naruto's style, too. Yet how many shinobi have fallen for them anyway? Itachi himself has fallen for clone feints. He fell for Sasuke's Snake Bulimia, too, even though he apparently expected that Sasuke could use it.
> 
> Knowing that Itachi's capable of using clones is one thing. Knowing exactly when he does it and which one is the fake... That's entirely different.



Knowing Itachi's prowess, is more than enough. Granted it won't be apparent Itachi is using clones until the first one is taken care of. Once that happens, it'll be clear that Itachi, a guy who hardly uses clones is setting something up when he's suddenly using more clones than normal. 



> Itachi can block Mokuton and Katon using Susano'o. The only Uchiha Kinjutsu I know of are Izanagi and Izanami; Obito's Izanami would require preparation just like Itachi's, and Itachi could very well use Obito's own preparations to cast Izanami on him instead (it depends who casts it first). Izanami wouldn't really make sense for Obito to use, either, as it requires a considerable degree of personal risk and Obito still has the ability to win without it. That means it is far more likely he will use Izanagi if he opts for using Uchiha Kinjutsu, although it certainly depends on what the circumstances call for (Obito isn't going to just throw away either of his eyes to show off a Kinjutsu). Obito also has not shown Izanami and I don't believe that he is capable of using it, anyway.
> 
> If Obito does use Izanagi, he'll probably be pretty lax about taking hits just like Danzou was. So Itachi just needs to land a killing-blow twice during their exchange; Obito will expect to respawn and counterattack, only to find himself stuck in a mental hamster wheel after the second hit.



Itachi can certainly block. Though he can't block in all situations. For instance, if Obito appears in an awkward position, it'll be pretty tricky blocking. Especially if he appears within Susanoo. 

I disagree with the idea "it depends on who casts it first". It depends on who cal land point A' after they establish a point A. For example, Obito may cast Izanami second, but may prosper by making a shorter loop. 
I agree, with the idea Obito may not need it. The conditions that'd force him to use Izanagi are the same for him using Izanami. However he could be easily forced into using one of these Kinjutsu if he's tipped off by Itachi doing something out of the ordinary such as using more clones than usual.

As we've seen Obito is already pretty lax without Izanagi. He'd rather use Izanagi when he wants to appear dead. Should he be within Izanami, it'll be obvious what jutsu he's in. Obito would know the jutsu as well as Itachi, so it may possibly be a short lived victory. Unless Itachi acts fast. However this is under the presupposition Obito gets forced into using Izanagi in the first place.



> The thing is, we don't know that Obito controlled Yagura himself. He may have had another Sharingan capable of Kotoamatsukami (Kagami's?) or maybe he called in Shisui or Danzou to do him a favor.
> 
> There's literally no other Genjutsu we know of (at this point) that is capable of controlling a perfect Jinchuuriki besides Kotoamatsukami. It either had to be that or something new; if it's the latter, then that's impossible to address right now because we don't know the exact powers or limitations of the Genjutsu yet.
> 
> ...



It was pretty definitive that Obito was in control given he was right behind Yagura controlling his every movement, literally. 

Or it could be that Obito's Genjutsu prowess is just that good?

I didn't say he was capable of using Koto. I'm saying his Genjutsu prowess left people thinking Koto was linked, which is quite the feat. 

However you're going to have to go against some facts to do that: the Genjutsu used on Yagura; Obito controlling Yagura; Obito using remarkable Genjutsu on Konan. On top of this, Kabuto was confident Obito could literally just mind control him with the Sharingan whereas Itachi opted for keeping Kabuto brain dead with Izanami/Tsukuyomi before using any other Genjutsu. That in-itself speaks volumes about the difference between them - regarding Genjutsu prowess. 



> Using Gedou Rinne Tensei on Itachi would fuck up the plan to revive Madara. And then there's nothing stopping Itachi from fighting to the bitter end all over again (plus he gets a second chance to beat Obito, who may still be weakened and/or minus an eye from their first battle).



Why would using Rinne Tensei fuck up the plan? Well this is a post-fight scenario, so Obito may very well have recovered. However if Rinne Tensei used, our old debate- I mean friend, Pain, will be there too.  
However a fight doesn't need to follow a revival, Itachi's body could be tied and and what not, whilst being stabbed with the Outer Path stakes. Rendering him vulnerable for the Genjutsu.



> However, there may be complications, as I said. Nagato grew up with the Rinnegan; he went from having wild black-outs that he couldn't control to full mastery of the paths. Obito has had no such luxury, regardless of whatever training he received from Madara. Nagato is also an Uzumaki with naturally-monstrous stamina; Obito is an Uchiha whose body has been saturated with Hashirama semen. There may be significant differences in what they are able to handle. Or maybe Obito's Frankenstein's monster body with the Zetsu parts is just not as compatible with the Rinnegan. We don't know; that's why we shouldn't just assume based on their general strength. It's suspicious that Obito has not even attempted to make use of these paths so far, don't you think?



I understand the differences. However we have the portrayal, for instance Obito threatening Kabuto (due to him [Obito] having the Rinnegan) and the very fact we know he was taught the Rinnegan jutsu. 
We know for a fact Obito's body is anything but incompatible with the Rinnegan seeing as he actually implanted it and actually suggesting he'd use one of its jutsu (Human Path).

All this portrayal points to him having the Rinnegan. Thus I believe we've more ground to say he can use the Rinnegan's powers.  



> Be that as it may, he could've been talking about surpassing Madara's "prime"; he didn't specify.



At the time we all thought that Madara was Obito, the masked man. So did Itachi, Itachi even spoke about Madara's eye power then. So Itachi had something to base it off; the conclusion Itachi reached was that he needed the EMS to compete. In a similar vein, Minato deduced you need a unique set of abilities to take Obito. So perhaps the unique set of abilities Itachi needed to take Obito included the EMS.



> Zetsu also said that Itachi hadn't been attacking normally, although that may have simply been another observation based on his movement.



I'd agree with that given there was no reference point for the attacking part. _Except_ for the fact that he didn't attack Sasuke with Susanoo at all.



Baroxio said:


> We saw what happened when Obito attempted to go back into Kamui dimension while Kakashi was there. He got bitch-slapped in the face mid-materialization and Kakashi hopped back to the real world with no problem.



Obito attempted to return to the Kamui dimension while Kakashi was there?



> If Itachi's clone is sucked in and he attempts to go in after it, Itachi will Kunai blitz the motionless Obito as easily as he Kunai-blitzed Orochimaru in their first meeting. Only this time it may not be his arm that gets cut off.



In scenario 1, that assumes he simply ignores Itachi. That is something I doubt he'll so, at most he may send some projectiles then disappear whilst Itachi takes care of those.



> Furthermore, even if we assume he gets into his dimension safely without being shanked, Pre Rinnengan Obito has nothing to effectively deal with Itachi's bunshin inside Kamui dimension. He can't use Kamui or risk getting shanked by the real Itachi, he can't fire off weapons from his eyes, his Katon doesn't get Kamui wind to boost it up to ridiculous levels (and Itachi's bunshin should be able to fire off Water Dragons anyway). Seriously, without Kamui Obito's crap. The most he can do is attempt to fire off Mokuton Sashiki projectiles at Itachi, who has Sharingan and is clearly the best at projectile countering. Not a very fair match for Obito, IMO.



Obito has a Madara sized Katon - it took many Suiton users to take a significantly smaller Katon. In other words Itachi won't get by with Suiton and Obito can manage with Katon alone.

Using Mokuton at clever points will help Obito out, assuming the Katon doesn't roast him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2013)

> Featwise, Itachi takes it if he uses clones, and Obito takes this if he uses Rinnengan. The difference is, Itachi has shown a willingness to use clones in almost all of his major battles whereas Obito has yet to actually use the Rinnengan for anything other than Black Rods and their relating Chakra chains (even then, they all come from his Kamui eye and are likely prepped pre-battle, so...yeah).



Except in the OP I said Obito is willing to test out the Rinnegan. 

Also featswise, Obito was able to take the clones of someone who relies on clones, both times (with and without the Rinnegan) they encountered one-another. So Itachi's clones wouldn't really be that much of a problem.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> 1- Can you explain to me How exactly would Itachi touch Obito, TWICE which MUST be the same?


He doesn't have to. Its ok If Obito touches him, which he must do to warp him with Kamui.




> because I hardly see him touch Obito at all! Itachi himself said it's not a jutsu that used in battle


He said Izanami was impractical because it left an opening for the victim to escape it, which is by accepting their fate.

Doesn't have anything to do with its application.



> If I'm not mistaken! he just was lucky because he's an edo and there is Sasuke to save his a$$. @.@


You are mistaken.




> Furthermore, Obito is Itachi's teacher he should know about all Itachi's power, since he's his
> teacher.


Like Jiraiya knew everything about Nagato, right 
Even if he knew about Izanami, he can't prevent it.


> 2-


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## Kali95 (May 14, 2013)

I dont see how izanami is even an issue, the fight wouldnt last that long.

Obito is practically unbeatable unless you have prior knowledge of kamui,... the only exceptions are other S/T users like  tobirama/minato who could counter it while being sucked in.

I dont think this fight is even fair unless we give Itachi knowledge, then he would stand a chance


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## Kai (May 14, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He doesn't have to. Its ok If Obito touches him, which he must do to warp him with Kamui.


That not only assumes Tobi will fall for Itachi's bunshin feint twice but that he'll also make physical contact (sensation) in the same manner both times.

Kamui makes Izanami practically an impossibility and Tobi was destroying KCM clones in close quarters, which are significantly more competent in close quarters than Itachi's.


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## Rocky (May 14, 2013)

No they aren't. Itachi was able to keep up and match Naruto just fine in a Taijutsu skirmish. I still to this day don't understand why, but it happened.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> That not only assumes Tobi will fall for Itachi's bunshin feint twice


That is a high probability. I mean, neither Sasuke or Kabuto saw through Itachi's feints. Kabuto is a highly advanced sensor.



> but that he'll also make physical contact (sensation) in the same manner both times.


Considering Obito's non versatile arsenal, I am 100% sure it will be easier for Itachi to replicate, rather than replicating Kabuto (a guy with a large arsenal) stabbing him with a sword that didn't even belong to him.



> Kamui makes Izanami practically an impossibility


Obito always makes physical contact to absorb his opponents, otherwise he can't.
I mean, he starts to use Kamui and you take a step back. 
He needs to grab the opponent to prevent that, or he needs to catch them completely off guard.
Eitherway, he tends to get upclose and personal with his opponents.



> and Tobi was destroying KCM clones in close quarters, which are significantly more competent in close quarters than Itachi's.


I highly doubt that.
Naruto's clone was using nothing but taijutsu, and he isn't better than Itachi in that regard. 
And even if you believe that will be the case, then it wouldn't change anything in regards to Izanami.
Itachi will go for a different physical sensation this time(gumbai destroying a clone, just like how Kabuto stabbed one with a sword).


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## Kai (May 14, 2013)

Naruto said he wanted to talk with Itachi. It makes more sense that he matched Itachi's taijutsu in a spar than vice versa.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2013)

Kai said:


> Naruto said he wanted to talk with Itachi. It makes more sense that he matched Itachi's taijutsu in a spar than vice versa.



Agreed. As supported by the fact that Naruto wasn't making use of chakra arm extensions, or even his insane speed which even got a Nintaijutsu user like the third Raikage.


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## Arles Celes (May 14, 2013)

Depends how fast Itachi figures out how Obito's kamui works. 

Considering that  Minato figured it out quite fast and even Fuu and Torune did also without too much trouble then it wouldn't be surprising if Itachi was very quick to completely understand its mechanics. I doubt he would spam MS right away as he never did so when he wasn't an edo. He would probably start with kunai throws and katons. Seeing how his abilities do not work he would probably came to the same conclusion that others did that he needs to land a hit on Obito when the latter is trying to land an attack. That could require some strategy and perhaps even trickery like genjutsu(which can temporarily work on Obito) or/and bunshins to set up a winning attack.

Still, Obito is pretty smart too though rather arrogant and overconfident which could work against him. On the other hand Itachi may not know about Obito's ability to teleport him to the kamui dimension through just a touch which could work in Obito's favor.

I say that with all factors in mind Obito wins 6/10 times in the first scenario and probably more in the second which could depend on how good he is with the rinnegan.


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## Turrin (May 14, 2013)

Scenario 1

People seriously overrate sick Itachi if they think he's going to win this. Sick Itachi after 1 MS usage couldn't completely evade a rather basic Shuriken trap and after 2 MS uses he was on the ground coughing and couldn't fully evade linear Katons. These are openings that Itachi absolutely can not afford against someone of Obito's caliber. If he fails to avoid a shuriken he won't simply end up with a small blade in his leg he'll end up with a massive Shuriken cutting through him, if he fails to avoid a Katon he won't simply suffer minor burns rather with Katons of Obito's size he'll end up being incinerated. Of course Itachi could use Susano'o more proactively than in the Sasuke fight to avoid these openings, but sick Itachi using Susano'o for a very brief period of time result in him having a heart attack and dying, so spamming Susano'o to make up for his physical weakness is not a viable option here ether.

People talk about Itachi eventually figuring out Kamui, forcing Obito to use Izanagi, and than catching him with Izanami, but fail to address how *sick* Itachi lastest long enough to accomplish all of these goals. By the time Itachi realizes he needs to use Izanami he's going to be far to exhausted and worn out fulfill the conditions necessary to activate the jutsu.

Obito wins with Mid difficulty. 

*Scenario 2*
Here Itachi doesn't have the exhaustion issue due to infinite stamina via Edo Tensei, however Obito has the addition of the Rinnegan and the OP has stated this allows Obitoto use the 6 Path's jutsu Nagato style. So Obito once again wins hands down as it goes w/o saying that Itachi (even Edo) can't handle the hax of Kamui + 6 Paths Jutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2013)

I would like to point out that Minato noted Obito wanted to rush the battle between them. Meaning Obito was making rush decisions with Minato; ITT Obito lacks any time constraints. So he wouldn't need to make rush decisions against Itachi.


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## Dr. White (May 14, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Scenario 1
> 
> Or you just simply blindly judge Sick Itachi's performance without the blatant manga context...
> 
> ...


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## joshhookway (May 14, 2013)

Totsuka in both cases gg. Obito won't know about the sword.


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## Legendary Itachi (May 14, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Totsuka in both cases gg. Obito won't know about the sword.



When Obito can simply use Kamui to counter it.....
And in the 2nd case, Obito gets intel from Zetsu.

Obito is just too much for sick Itachi although I believe Itachi can put up a good fight, not to say Obito with Rinnegan + Gedo Mazo......


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## insane111 (May 14, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Totsuka in both cases gg. Obito won't know about the sword.



Good thing it can't hit him 

The only time Obito would become solid is in close quarters to suck Itachi in, which means Obito would be *inside *of Susano'o at that point. Although I don't think the fight would even get to the point where Susano'o is brought out.

Without knowledge, Itachi does not know he should avoid Taijutsu at all costs. This si why I think there should be a 3rd scenario where Itachi has full knowledge of Kamui.


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## Arles Celes (May 14, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Scenario 1
> 
> People seriously overrate sick Itachi if they think he's going to win this. Sick Itachi after 1 MS usage couldn't completely evade a rather basic Shuriken trap and after 2 MS uses he was on the ground coughing and couldn't fully evade linear Katons. These are openings that Itachi absolutely can not afford against someone of Obito's caliber. If he fails to avoid a shuriken he won't simply end up with a small blade in his leg he'll end up with a massive Shuriken cutting through him, if he fails to avoid a Katon he won't simply suffer minor burns rather with Katons of Obito's size he'll end up being incinerated. Of course Itachi could use Susano'o more proactively than in the Sasuke fight to avoid these openings, but sick Itachi using Susano'o for a very brief period of time result in him having a heart attack and dying, so spamming Susano'o to make up for his physical weakness is not a viable option here ether.
> 
> ...



To be fair Itachi's chakra issues are a bit blown out of proportion.

Ironically during his fight with Sasuke it was Sasuke himself who run out of chakra first despite using less chakra taxing jutsus than his brother and the latter being at the final stage of his sickness which caused him damage that didn't happen during his previous usages of MS. It was during that fight when Itachi was so sick that Zetsu who knew how strong he was normally was surprised how beneath his usual level he was.

Itachi's skill at genjutsu, taijutsu, and analytic thinking make him a formidable opponent as long as he isn't dying before the fight even starts.

Of course the Izanami strategy wont work though as it requires to much time and most of all Itachi may not know that Obito is a Nietzche wannabe and so vulnerable to it.

Obito may end the fight with a single touch but he also seemingly can be hit by Amaterasu which would force him to use Izanagi at least once if he cannot defeat Itachi before that.

Obito seems to be stronger but the difference between his sharingan self and Itachi isn't THAT big IMO.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 14, 2013)

> Ironically during his fight with Sasuke it was Sasuke himself who run out of chakra first despite using less chakra taxing jutsus than his brother and the latter being at the final stage of his sickness which caused him damage that didn't happen during his previous usages of MS.



Sasuke was the one using more chakra intensive jutsu.


----------



## crystalblade13 (May 14, 2013)

i hate how ALL obito threads ignore his non-kamui feats. the guys got a juubi sized katon, enormous shuriken, and great mokuton skills to ya know.


----------



## Thunder (May 14, 2013)

crystalblade13 said:


> i hate how ALL obito threads ignore his non-kamui feats. the guys got a juubi sized katon, enormous shuriken, and great mokuton skills to ya know.



Obito's other skills are often ignored because _Kamui_ alone is so broken. In many cases, he simply doesn't need to rely on anything else.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 16, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Obito's other skills are often ignored because _Kamui_ alone is so broken. In many cases, he simply doesn't need to rely on anything else.



Although you're right, I reckon it is still better to note that Obito still has contingency plans in case Kamui fails. Or jutsu to supplement Kamui; jutsu that can Kamui can compliment. 

That still considers how broken Kamui is whilst including all of Obito's other skills.


----------



## Thunder (May 16, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Although you're right, I reckon it is still better to note that Obito still has contingency plans in case Kamui fails. Or jutsu to supplement Kamui; jutsu that can Kamui can compliment.
> 
> That still considers how broken Kamui is whilst including all of Obito's other skills.



I agree with that completely, Munboy. Just for the record I'm not saying it's necessarily a _good_ idea to ignore Obito's other skills; I was just explaining _why_ they're often ignored. 

Obito is actually pretty well-rounded in my opinion: 


Rinnegan
Mokuton
Izanagi
Doton: Moguragakure
Uchiha Kaenjin
Katon: Bakufū Ranbu
Powerful genjutsu


----------



## joshhookway (May 16, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> When Obito can simply use Kamui to counter it.....
> And in the 2nd case, Obito gets intel from Zetsu.
> 
> Obito is just too much for sick Itachi although I believe Itachi can put up a good fight, not to say Obito with Rinnegan + Gedo Mazo......



Itachi counteracts the moment Tobi reuturns to the dimension.


----------



## Rain (May 17, 2013)

Itachi's kunai + bunshin skill combined with his superior intelligence grants him an easy victory here.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Scenario 1

Every Itachi's jutsu are negated by Kamui, genjutsu negated by Obito's MS.
Any attempt for izanami is big risk because once Obito touched itachi, it's over.

Obito wins.


Scenario 2

Same things happened like scenario 1

Itachi have chance to defeat Obito if he have full knowledge about Kamui.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

I'm gonna change my old assessment on this match.

The first scenario goes to Obito due to lop-sided intel and Itachi being sick; not having the stamina or the knowledge of Obito's Jutsu means Itachi is not only liable to make a mistake, but can't afford to do so. There's a slim chance Itachi could prevail with Izanami if the fight plays out ideally for him, but Obito is the probable victor.

Now that we have a better idea of Obito's capabilities on his own, Edo Itachi wins the second scenario; Obito can't use any of the Rinnegan's Jutsu (or simply elects not to) and Kakashi was capable of overcoming him in the Kamui world. Now that we know the mechanics of Kamui itself, it can be said that Itachi is well-equipped to exploit its weaknesses. The only thing he's still missing is prior intel, but he should still win this match more often than not; as an Edo Tensei, he has the stamina to probe Obito's abilities and learn how they work firsthand. Once he's figured out how to deal with Kamui, he can capitalize on that knowledge, force Obito to use Izanagi, and then counter with Izanami. There's a slim chance Obito could win if he succeeds in ambushing Itachi with a black chakra rod after the initial Izanagi respawn, but Itachi is most likely going to win since he doesn't have to worry about his own Jutsu whittling his life away this time.


----------



## Ghost (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm gonna change my old assessment on this match.
> 
> The first scenario goes to Obito due to lop-sided intel and Itachi being sick; not having the stamina or the knowledge of Obito's Jutsu means Itachi is not only liable to make a mistake, but can't afford to do so. There's a slim chance Itachi could prevail with Izanami, but Obito is the probable victor.
> 
> Now that we have a better idea of Obito's capabilities on his own, Edo Itachi wins the second scenario; Obito can't use any of the Rinnegan's Jutsu (or simply elects not to) and Kakashi was capable of overcoming him in the Kamui world. Now that we know the mechanics of Kamui itself, it can be said that Itachi is well-equipped to exploit its weaknesses. The only thing he's still missing is prior intel, but he should still win this match more often than not; as an Edo Tensei, he has the stamina to probe Obito's abilities and learn how they work firsthand. Once he's figured out how to deal with Kamui, he can capitalize on that knowledge, force Obito to use Izanagi, and then counter with Izanami. There's a slim chance Obito could win if he succeeds in ambushing Itachi with a black chakra rod after the initial Izanagi respawn, but Itachi is most likely going to win since he doesn't have to worry about his own Jutsu whittling his life away this time.



Niku has it covered. Despite the outcome, fight between Itachi and Obito would be awesome to read.


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## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Obito isn't beating Itachi in a genjutsu battle, so Scenario 1 is fairly worthless.

On to Scenarioo 2, Itachi is an Edo, so all he has to do is make a single clone, trade places with it when Obito tries to warp him, and then dominate Obito from both sides. Even without knowledge, Itachi has alwasy made a clone in every one of his on-screen fights, so he'll definitely make one here with infinite chakra.

If Obito actually decides to use that damn Rinnengan eye though, and we'll only get dragged back into another Itachi vs Nagato debate, where some people believe MS jutsu like Susano should be able to compete with anything the Rinnengan can dish out, and others believe that the Rinnengan's high end feats (CST, CT, Meteor) should be enough to beat it.

But since Obito has no Rinnengan high end feats, even then he looses. It's just a much more difficult fight than if he fought Itachi the way he fought in canon.


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> .On to Scenarioo 2, Itachi is an Edo, so all he has to do is make a single clone, trade places with it when Obito tries to warp him, and then dominate Obito from both sides. .


No, that's not all he has to do.

This is not how Kamui works.

Reassess yourself.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

> On to Scenarioo 2, Itachi is an Edo, so all he has to do is make a single clone, trade places with it when Obito tries to warp him, and then dominate Obito from both sides.



LOL if that's so easy, Naruto won't need Kakashi's help to fight Obito.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Edo Madara said:


> LOL if that's so easy, Naruto won't need Kakashi's help to fight Obito.



I really don't think he would.

He only needed Kakashi in the manga because they had no idea how Obito's Kamui worked (or even that his intangibility and warping were part of the same Jutsu). Kakashi didn't end up needing Naruto's help after they understood Kamui; hell, he beat Obito by himself.

Naruto was stronger than Kakashi at the time, so he should've been able to beat Obito as well--with that crucial knowledge of Kamui.

And I think Itachi could do the same; Obito did say Itachi would have been able to kill him if not for his secrets.


----------



## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Kai said:


> No, that's not all he has to do.
> 
> This is not how Kamui works.
> 
> Reassess yourself.







Edo Madara said:


> LOL if that's so easy, Naruto won't need Kakashi's help to fight Obito.





In both cases, Obito could have been killed right then and there were it not for plot (Kakashi could have used Raikiri in his bitchslap, Naruto could have aimed literally anywhere else OR use any one of the 50 or so different Rasengan variations that are far more powerful than the one he used). Immediately after this, Kakashi ports back to the real world instead of finishing him off, and Naruto's clone just ceases to exist or something. 

Had they stayed to do more damage, Obito wouldn't have been able to do anything to them (barring the use of an apparently ornamental Rinnengan eye). Simply put, Obito has shown time and time again that he's a worthless piece of shit if somebody else is in his Kamui realm. Sure he has a nice Katon, some Mokuton abilities and a few giant weapons, but let's not even begin to entertain the idea that these can get through Itachi's Susano, 

Considering he got run down by Kakashi and stabbed despite a reach advantage, Itachi can just Totsuka GG him in Kamui realm with zero difficulty. The only thing Rinnengan changes is the level of difficulty Itachi might perceive with this strategy, especially since Obito lacks high end Rinnengan feats (or...*any *Rinnengan feats) like Chibaku Tensei or Chou Shinra Tensei.

Obito's best bet in this match is to disengage and run the fuck away.


----------



## Edo Madara (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> In both cases, Obito could have been killed right then and there were it not for plot (Kakashi could have used Raikiri in his bitchslap, Naruto could have aimed literally anywhere else OR use any one of the 50 or so different Rasengan variations that are far more powerful than the one he used). Immediately after this, Kakashi ports back to the real world instead of finishing him off, and Naruto's clone just ceases to exist or something.
> 
> Had they stayed to do more damage, Obito wouldn't have been able to do anything to them (barring the use of an apparently ornamental Rinnengan eye). Simply put, Obito has shown time and time again that he's a worthless piece of shit if somebody else is in his Kamui realm. Sure he has a nice Katon, some Mokuton abilities and a few giant weapons, but let's not even begin to entertain the idea that these can get through Itachi's Susano,
> 
> ...



Why would Obito try to fight Itachi in his own realm? What kind of suicide plan is that? lol 
Once Itachi get warped, it's over. If Itachi clones can use Susanoo, we will see it by now, I mean it's good way to counter Susanoo's risk which is to fucked the user body.

And going by your scenario Itachi will be trapped in Kamui as well, which mean the fight will end in draw.


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

It was made clear they needed multiple coordinated attacks and perfect timing to get the job done.



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> Kakashi didn't end up needing Naruto's help after they understood Kamui; hell, he beat Obito by himself.


Kakashi beat Obito as long as they both agree to fight inside Kamui, sure.

If they fight in the real world where Obito's 'phasing' still applies, Kakashi needs teamwork as shown in the manga.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 13, 2014)

Implying Obito would suck the clone into Kamuiland and not simply destroy it. 

Kakashi+Naruto plan worked because they also had Kamui. And quick+powerful offense to follow Kamui'd clone up.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 13, 2014)

Kai said:


> If they fight in the real world where Obito's 'phasing' still applies, Kakashi needs teamwork as shown in the manga.



obito was able to "phasing" by teleporting his body parts to the real realm.


----------



## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Implying Obito would suck the clone into Kamuiland and not simply destroy it.
> 
> Kakashi+Naruto plan worked because they also had Kamui. And quick+powerful offense to follow Kamui'd clone up.


Obito couldn't do shit against Kakashi when he was in Kamui Realm. Kakashi dodged his shit and Raikiri'd him in the chest. Sure he got hit too, but not only are Itachi's physical feats arguably better than Kakashi's, trading mortal wounds with a clone is basically the same as getting GG. Let's not even bring up the fact that Itachi's Kage Bunshin can explode. 



Edo Madara said:


> Why would Obito try to fight Itachi in his own realm? What kind of suicide plan is that? lol
> Once Itachi get warped, it's over. If Itachi clones can use Susanoo, we will see it by now, I mean it's good way to counter Susanoo's risk which is to fucked the user body.
> 
> And going by your scenario Itachi will be trapped in Kamui as well, which mean the fight will end in draw.



Obito's entire fighting style revolves around him trying to suck somebody up into Kamui realm. Every match he has ever had (outside of his brief stint as Juubi Jin) has been about him attempting to drag his opponent into Kamui. He did it against Minato, against Fuu and Toroi, and even against Konan. Then he got Rinnengan and still refused to do more than this against Naruto, Gai, Bee and Kakashi. You must be reading a different manga if you think he won't try to suck Itachi up into Kamui.

Similarily, Itachi has used clones in every one of his fight scenes, with the lone exception of the Part 1 Sasuke fight where he raped a far inferior young boy without using any ninjutsu at all. Clones were used against Kakashi (Part 1 & Part 2), against Naruto (Capture itachi arc & later during the War arc) and against Hebi Sasuke (Cave confrontation & actual Uchiha Hideout fight) as well as against Kabuto (Izanami, anyone?). Again, you'd have to be reading a different manga if you think he won't use a clone here and trade places with it faster than EMS Sharingan and Perfect Sage Senses can follow.

As for clones using MS jutsu, Madara already proved that when he split into 25 clones and had them all use Susano. We already know that Shadow Clones can use any technique the original can, and we know these clones can use Kekkai Genkai specific moves like Susano and whatnot. What argument can you make to say that Itachi's clone arbitrarily can't do what we've already seen done?



> Kai said:
> 
> 
> > It was made clear they needed multiple coordinated attacks and perfect timing to get the job done.
> ...


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> As for clones using MS jutsu, Madara already proved that when he split into 25 clones and had them all use Susano. We already know that Shadow Clones can use any technique the original can, and we know these clones can use Kekkai Genkai specific moves like Susano and whatnot. What argument can you make to say that Itachi's clone arbitrarily can't do what we've already seen done?


How about the fact that Itachi's clone wouldn't be able to hang at the first sign of MS backlash?



			
				Baroxio said:
			
		

> Does the term, Plot no Jutsu mean anything to you? Because as I've pointed out with two seperate examples, the only reason Obito is still alive is purely because of plot.
> 
> The first example (Kakashi bitch-smacking Obito accross the face) s rather telling.
> 
> ...


Nowhere did I deny that Kakashi spared Obito's life on at least two occasions. Obito outright admitted this to Kakashi himself.

What all of the pages show, however, are the heroes using teamwork as a must to defeat him even after understanding his jutsu.



			
				Elia said:
			
		

> obito was able to "phasing" by teleporting his body parts to the real realm.


That's not really a certainty. If he was able to, the ensuing war most likely compromised that possibility.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Scenario 1 is interesting. However I don't see Itachi winning; I can see Obito eventually getting Itachi under Genjutsu. He has the capacity to get by Itachi's jutsu and Itachi does not know about and cannot exploit Kamui. 

Scenario 2: Obito will rape Itachi. Nagato would rape, Edo Itachi; pre-Rinnegan Obito would stand a good chance at beating him. Put those two together and you get Rinnegan Obito who would rape Itachi. 
If Obito uses Demon Realm alongside Kamui, he should easily be able to land Human Realm. Itachi also cannot be stabbed by the Outer Path stakes, otherwise he'll be all chained up.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Kai said:


> Kakashi beat Obito as long as they both agree to fight inside Kamui, sure.
> 
> If they fight in the real world where Obito's 'phasing' still applies, Kakashi needs teamwork as shown in the manga.



But if Obito warps anyone, they go to Kamui Land.

Any time Obito uses Kamui, he is working himself into precisely that situation.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> But if Obito warps anyone, they go to Kamui Land.
> 
> Any time Obito uses Kamui, he is working himself into precisely that situation.



Obito explicitly said he has to pay attention where Kakashi uses Kamui. He lost only because Kakashi's Kamui speed was _that_ good.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obito explicitly said he has to pay attention where Kakashi uses Kamui. He lost only because Kakashi's Kamui speed was _that_ good.



He lost because they both warped each other to Kamui Land and Kakashi kicked his ass.

Even when Kakashi alone got warped (thanks to the Kyuubi throwing him at Obito), he landed at least two solid hits on Obito's fairy ass from the other side when he fazed to avoid Naruto. One Raikiri would've ended it, and Itachi's not the type to waste such an opportunity.

So all it takes to hit Obito is an attack from both sides, which anyone with clones or a method of activating attacks remotely can do.

If Konan had understood the Jutsu better, she might've actually been able to kill Obito without the paper bomb trench; she was well-equipped to do it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> He lost because they both warped each other to Kamui land and Kakashi kicked his ass.
> 
> Even when Kakashi alone got warped (thanks to the Kyuubi throwing him at Obito), he landed at least two solid hits on Obito's fairy ass from the other side when he fazed to avoid Naruto. One Raikiri would've ended it, and Itachi's not the type to waste such an opportunity.
> 
> ...



I referred to Obito vs co. If Obito had his full chakra reserves he would've stomped Kakashi; Rinnegan is a big difference maker, y'know.

Obito would've been more attentive with where he warped his body had he known about the Kurama factor. 
Itachi is also the guy who lacks the Kurama factor, nor has he got anything as fast as Kakashi's execution speed when it comes to Kamui. 

Except we are talking about Rinnegan Obito here.


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> But if Obito warps anyone, they go to Kamui Land.
> 
> Any time Obito uses Kamui, he is working himself into precisely that situation.


Hence, the result of Kakashi's teamwork with Naruto? Clones have never made its mark in such a situation and are likely to get destroyed by Obito's fan/stakes long before then.

In Kakashi's case, he wouldn't need to force Obito into Kamui because they pretty much had a mutual agreement to fight one on one within Kamui.



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> If Konan had understood the Jutsu better, she might've actually been able to kill Obito without the paper bomb trench; she was well-equipped to do it.


Konan understood the jutsu the best she ever could and ran countless simulations on it by her own self admission. Her solution? 600 billion exploding tags to overcome Kamui, which to date is probably the longest lasting jutsu in the manga.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I referred to Obito vs co. If Obito had his full chakra reserves he would've stomped Kakashi;



Kakashi didn't have his full chakra reserves, either; both of them seemed to be in about the same condition, minus Obito's trump cards.



> Rinnegan is a big difference maker, y'know.



Not when it can't do anything except share vision.

And without the Jinchuuriki Pain, even that's useless to him.



> Obito would've been more attentive with where he warped his body had he known about the Kurama factor.



But that's just it--he doesn't know. Not there, or here.



> Itachi is also the guy who lacks the Kurama factor, nor has he got anything as fast as Kakashi's execution speed when it comes to Kamui.



Itachi can activate Susano'o faster than Sasuke. Kakashi needed Kamui just to stop Sasuke's arrow. Before the timeskip, Kakashi couldn't even track Itachi's seal speed, and we saw in the Izanami loop that it's fast enough to preempt Kabuto with his own Jutsu.

It's abundantly clear that Itachi is faster than Kakashi when it comes to Jutsu execution.



> Except we are talking about Rinnegan Obito here.



When you take away the Bijuu/Jinchuuriki, the fan, and Gedou Mazo, there's no difference beside the eye color.

He showed zero feats with the Rinnegan, which means he either can't use its powers or it's in-character for him to opt out of using them. Either way, it would've benefited him greatly to rely on these powers in the manga and he didn't do it; as a result, there's no reason to expect him to whip them out against Itachi here. Itachi won't pressure him nearly as much as KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi did together, and if they couldn't force Obito to use them, it's doubtful they'll upstage Obito's usual parlor tricks this time around.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Kai said:


> Hence, the result of Kakashi's teamwork with Naruto? Clones have never made its mark in such a situation and are likely to get destroyed by Obito's fan/stakes long before then.



Kakashi didn't need teamwork when he whooped that Uchiha ass from the Box World.



> In Kakashi's case, he wouldn't need to force Obito into Kamui because they pretty much had a mutual agreement to fight one on one within Kamui.



Or Obito was just retarded as hell.

I'm going with that, personally.



> Konan understood the jutsu the best she ever could and ran countless simulations on it by her own self admission.



The operative clause in that statement being "the best she ever could."

Had she obtained explicit information on how Kamui works instead of going by only what she could deduce, she would've done better.



> Her solution? 600 billion exploding tags to overcome Kamui, which to date is probably the longest lasting jutsu in the manga.



10 minutes?

No.

Danzou's Izanagi last 10 minutes (potentially 11, if you include Shisui's eye).

Tsunade kept up Byakugou from dusk 'til dawn.

The 3rd Raikage fought for 3 days.

Akatsuki sealing rituals take even longer, depending on the number of members available to perform it.

Minato's seal on the Kyuubi lasted 16 years before he had to repair it.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi didn't have his full chakra reserves, either; both of them seemed to be in about the same condition, minus Obito's trump cards.



Kakashi still had access to trump cards, that's a big thing.



> Not when it can't do anything except share vision.
> 
> And without the Jinchuuriki Pain, even that's useless to him.



Rinnegan jutsu exist. You missed them out completely. 



> But that's just it--he doesn't know. Not there, or here.



He implied that he could choose where to warp his body, that's a big implication.



> Itachi can activate Susano'o faster than Sasuke. Kakashi needed Kamui just to stop Sasuke's arrow. Before the timeskip, Kakashi couldn't even track Itachi's seal speed, and we saw in the Izanami loop that it's fast enough to preempt Kabuto with his own Jutsu.
> 
> It's abundantly clear that Itachi is faster than Kakashi when it comes to Jutsu execution.



Since when can Itachi do that? Also Kakashi's Kamui feats vs Obito supercedes his performance with Sasuke. 

That doesn't apply to Kakashi's Kamui use in the war, though.



> He showed zero feats with the Rinnegan, which means he either can't use its powers or it's in-character for him to opt out of using them. Either way, it would've benefited him greatly to rely on these powers in the manga and he didn't do it; as a result, there's no reason to expect him to whip them out against Itachi here. Itachi won't pressure him nearly as much as KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi did together, and if they couldn't force Obito to use them, it's doubtful they'll upstage Obito's usual parlor tricks this time around.



Madara taught him the Rinnegan jutsu, that is more than enough. IC it was due to chakra reasons and strategical reasons.


----------



## Nikushimi (Feb 13, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kakashi still had access to trump cards, that's a big thing.



Kakashi's trump card is Kamui and that was disabled in Box World, just like Obito's.

They were both reduced to their basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and skill--and Kakashi won.



> Rinnegan jutsu exist. You missed them out completely.



I know they exist, but Obito never used any.



> He implied that he could choose where to warp his body, that's a big implication.



We already know he can do this; Obito has teleported before.



> Since when can Itachi do that?



Link removed

Link removed

Also, this isn't Susano'o, but it does show a difference in Jutsu execution speed between Itachi and Sasuke:

Link removed

Link removed



> Also Kakashi's Kamui feats vs Obito supercedes his performance with Sasuke.



Why?

Zabuza was still able to fight him without being totally overwhelmed, which indicates that Kakashi's speed hasn't changed much at all since part 1, let alone in the month or so since he confronted Sasuke.

It doesn't really surprise me that he could keep up with Obito, since Obito's not especially beyond what anyone would expect of the 4.5 to 5 ballpark.



> That doesn't apply to Kakashi's Kamui use in the war, though.



Why?



> Madara taught him the Rinnegan jutsu, that is more than enough. IC it was due to chakra reasons and strategical reasons.



He had enough chakra left to spam the fuck out of Kamui, Katon Jutsu, and Gedou Rinne Tensei, and even to seal the Juubi into himself.

Yet in all that time, he didn't use a single Rinnegan ability to fight with.


----------



## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Are we assuming that the guy whose body is half Senju Hashirama clone is having stamina problems? The same Senju Hashirama dna that turns 10 year long rechargers into, at most, a day wait? From the same guy who thought the chakra of Naruto, Minato and both halves of the Kyuubi were at most "comparable" to his own? Really?

If anything, Hashirama's DNA is probably what allows Obito to spam his Magenkyou without any drawbacks, IMHO.

That said, I doubt Kishimoto even cares about such archaic things like "chakra limits" nowadays.


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi didn't need teamwork when he whooped that Uchiha ass from the Box World.


In Kamui, a wall like this would've stopped Obito.


In the real world, Obito's Kamui still applies against Kakashi. In the dimension, Kamui doesn't/didn't apply. Hence why Kakashi can solo Obito while both are in Kamuiland.




			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> Or Obito was just retarded as hell.
> 
> I'm going with that, personally.


A retard that kind of always stayed one step ahead of Itachi?



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> The operative clause in that statement being "the best she ever could."
> 
> Had she obtained explicit information on how Kamui works instead of going by only what she could deduce, she would've done better.


Assuming her solutions would change after knowing what even we know?

Kishimoto had Shikaku propose the exact strategy when talking to the entire Alliance:


It's rather clear there how Kishi portrays Obito's ability.



			
				Nikushimi said:
			
		

> 10 minutes?
> 
> No.
> 
> ...


You're right, there are seals and supplemental abilities that can last days to years.

It's more accurate to say Konan's 600 billion explosives is the single longest lasting attack we've seen.


----------



## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Now that I think about it, where the fuck did Shukaku get the intel to say that Obito's time limit was 5 minutes, and why didn't Kakashi or Naruto know this as they were fighting him?


----------



## Kai (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Now that I think about it, where the fuck did Shukaku get the intel to say that Obito's time limit was 5 minutes, and why didn't Kakashi or Naruto know this as they were fighting him?


A public service announcement from Kishi through the character he was about kill off


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## sanninme rikudo (Feb 13, 2014)

Scenario 1 Itachi can solo via Totsuka depending on how he pierces him with it
Scenario 1 of course obito wins if your giving him Nagato's feats with the rinnegan aswell then yea Obito takes it


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## Bonly (Feb 13, 2014)

Obito should win both scenarios more times then not. Itachi lacks the speed to actually hit Obito which means Obito can pretty much troll Itachi and easily outlast him and put him under a genjutsu eventually. Without the speed needed to hit Obito, Itachi lacks a way to hit him, realistically that is. Scenario two ends with Itachi getting his soul ripped out of his Edo body.


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Are we assuming that the guy whose body is half Senju Hashirama clone is having stamina problems? The same Senju Hashirama dna that turns 10 year long rechargers into, at most, a day wait? From the same guy *who thought the chakra of Naruto, Minato and both halves of the Kyuubi were at most "comparable" to his own? Really?*



@bold

where did that happen?


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## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Elia said:


> @bold
> 
> where did that happen?




"So he's sharing his chakra with all the other Shinobi! That's an impressive volume of chakra...comparable to mine in fact! No, this is...they're using the Kyuubi's chakra to...!"


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> "So he's sharing his chakra with all the other Shinobi! That's an impressive volume of chakra...comparable to mine in fact! No, this is...they're using the Kyuubi's chakra to...!"




as for the "they're using...etc" that's a wrong translation. 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Baroxio (Feb 13, 2014)

Elia said:


> as for the "they're using...etc" that's a wrong translation.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


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## Trojan (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> "No! Actually this has Nine Tails's Chakra mixed in!" -Your translation
> 
> Either way, the power that Hashirama thought was "comparable" to his own was Naruto's + Full Kyuubi's chakra. Anyway you slice it, Hashirama is ridiculously OP.



- Yes.
- No, Naruto does not have full Kurama to begin with. 

Hashi has the same amount of chakra like BM Naruto. 
(Naruto & 50% Kurama)


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## Ersa (Feb 13, 2014)

Itachi loses scenario 1 simply because he gets outlasted using flash Susanoo to counter Kamui. Rinnegan Tobi without paths is more or less Pre-Rinnegan Tobi with no Izanagi plus Human Path so I can see Itachi taking this, with his nigh infinite stamina he'll eventually get one or two clones sucked into the Kamui dimension and with Susanoo limbs to quickly counter Kamui warps he'll tire Obito out and then take him out.


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## ARGUS (Feb 13, 2014)

Scenario 1: Obito wins this high diff 
Despite the intents of obito being to injure,,, i still dont see how itachi can counter kamui,,, literally everything that itachi would throw at obito would be countered,,,, while its possible that itachi can quickly figure out the mechanics behind kamui,, he still wont have the right counter to it,, since he lacks a consecutive jutsu thats longer than 5 minutes,, and he doesnt have FTG level speed,, In the end i can see obito sending itachi in the kamui dimension and letting him starve for days,, thus weakening his sick form,, and allowing him to genjutsu itachi,,, some might say that amaterasu works on obito but that only happened since it caught obito by surprise and he already countered it anyways,, though we dont know how 

Scenario 2: Obito wins this low/mid diff 
While Edo Itachi has the crediibility to use his MS techniques to a much higher extent,, he still doesnt have any counters to kamui at all,, furthermore the OP allowed Obito to have Nagatos rinnegan feats meaning he now also has Deva and Preta to troll on half of itachis arsenal,,, ST and Kamui together would literally make Obito invincible and i see absolutely nothing working on him here ,,,, theres way too many ways for Obito to attack itachi in this scenario whereas itachi literally doesnt have any way of attacking Obito at all


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## Marsala (Feb 13, 2014)

Itachi has the advantage in both scenarios with Izanami. Someone as desperate to reject reality as Obito could never escape it, at least not without being completely TnJed.


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## Alex Payne (Feb 13, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Obito couldn't do shit against Kakashi when he was in Kamui Realm. Kakashi dodged his shit and Raikiri'd him in the chest. Sure he got hit too, but not only are Itachi's physical feats arguably better than Kakashi's, trading mortal wounds with a clone is basically the same as getting GG. Let's not even bring up the fact that Itachi's Kage Bunshin can explode.


Err, so? Obito doesn't need to warp clones to win. And Itachi can't force him to warp clones. Obito can easily destroy clones in real world. That's what Kakashi+Naruto have over Itachi - ability to access Kamuiland by themselves.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 14, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Similarily, Itachi has used clones in every one of his fight scenes, with the lone exception of the Part 1 Sasuke fight where he raped a far inferior young boy without using any ninjutsu at all. Clones were used against Kakashi (Part 1 & Part 2), against Naruto (Capture itachi arc & later during the War arc) and against Hebi Sasuke (Cave confrontation & actual Uchiha Hideout fight) as well as against Kabuto (Izanami, anyone?). Again, you'd have to be reading a different manga if you think he won't use a clone here and trade places with it faster than EMS Sharingan and Perfect Sage Senses can follow.
> 
> *As for clones using MS jutsu, Madara already proved that when he split into 25 clones and had them all use Susano.* We already know that Shadow Clones can use any technique the original can, and we know these clones can use Kekkai Genkai specific moves like Susano and whatnot. What argument can you make to say that Itachi's clone arbitrarily can't do what we've already seen done?



Madara is the only Uchiha who shown this feat, like I said before, clones is very good way to countered MS risks to it's users, if Itachi can do that, we would see that already, yet we never see him do what Madara did. 

Clones doesn't guarantee victory against Obito. Naruto can found out about Kamui weakness is thanks to Kakashi's help who have access to this jutsu as well.


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## Almondsand (Feb 14, 2014)

Itachi wins both scenarios. Based off feats and hype he definitely takes it.

Itachi had intellect on par with the previous 4 Hokages at the age of 7, so that means he was genius at strategic fighting since then. He never rushes in a fight instead he deduces his opponent down before initializing a strike, of course when has the opening he never hesitates to go for the kill. 

Itachi last battle with Kabuto, he even took it easy on Kabuto, putting a muzzle on killing him. Kabuto with sage sensing, chakra etc.. Couldn't beat Itachi at all. A lot of people here are underestimating Itachi speed still. It's no sense of arguing with people that seems to forget he was fighting a perfect sage who couldn't tell if he was hitting a bunshin, got confused and thought Itachi was a sensor, and called Itachi the greatest liar which indicates a great chess player. Obito is the dumbest fighter in the manga.. Kakashi and Naruto could had killed him 5 times. Itachi even get one chance.. Obito is dead and Obito will slip up. Obito has none of the rinnegan techniques and his genjutsu is not on par with Itachi who can break his mental will easily as mentally Obito is fragile. Itachi is just on a whole different level.


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## Rain (Feb 14, 2014)

Obito can't really beat Itachi with Kamui.

1. Itachi uses clones which make it extremly risky for Obito to go in.
2. Itachi can Flash activate Susano'o and kill the son of a bitch.
3. Itachi has the ability to read his opponent's intentions so he can use set up Kunai to Obito's spawning place and end the fight.

Itachi takes this with mid diff at most.


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## Trojan (Feb 14, 2014)

Rain said:


> Obito can't really beat Itachi with Kamui.
> 
> 1. Itachi uses clones which make it extremly risky for Obito to go in.
> 2. Itachi can Flash activate Susano'o and kill the son of a bitch.
> ...



1- obito will fodderize that.
2- he can bypass it as nothing.
3- nonsense.

itachi already admitted inferiority to his teacher.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi's trump card is Kamui and that was disabled in Box World, just like Obito's.
> 
> They were both reduced to their basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and skill--and Kakashi won.
> 
> I know they exist, but Obito never used any.



Rinnegan is still a big trump card you're not considering. 

Madara taught Obito the jutsu, that still indicates he knows them. Read the OP.





> [1]
> 
> [1]
> 
> ...



Those pages don't prove what you claim they prove.


> Why?
> 
> Zabuza was still able to fight him without being totally overwhelmed, which indicates that Kakashi's speed hasn't changed much at all since part 1, let alone in the month or so since he confronted Sasuke.
> 
> It doesn't really surprise me that he could keep up with Obito, since Obito's not especially beyond what anyone would expect of the 4.5 to 5 ballpark.



Kakashi didn't use Kamui at all at the scale he used it against Obito*; it evidently was better in that battle.

*The guy, other than A, to force the Yellow Flash to use Hiraishin in a battle of speed.



> He had enough chakra left to spam the fuck out of Kamui, Katon Jutsu, and Gedou Rinne Tensei, and even to seal the Juubi into himself.
> 
> Yet in all that time, he didn't use a single Rinnegan ability to fight with.



Pre-Juubito, that may indicate the Rinnegan requires more chakra. 

Post-Juubito, it was suggested Obito was holding back 'cause he was interested in Naruto's abilities.

Also if in doubt about Rinnegan, read the OP.


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## Rain (Feb 15, 2014)

Elia said:


> 1- obito will fodderize that.
> 2- he van bypass it as nothing.
> 3- nonsense.



Such arguments, much stronk



> itachi already admitted inferiority to his teacher.




He lied to you.


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## Weapon (Feb 15, 2014)

"Goliath": Book Of Samuel

Imagine David (*Itachi*) v Goliath (*Obito*) right,

Except in this case, David misses all of his stones and he's the one who falls face first to the ground in an instant. It's a tragic ending / uncontrollable amount of denial from anyone who ever thought David could win.


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## Garcher (Feb 15, 2014)

Stop refusing canon, Itachi wins.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 15, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> Stop refusing canon, Itachi wins.



You're misinterpreting canon there. He referred to Itachi's surprise Fuuinjutsu. Canon shows Itachi feeling inferior to Tobi hence he resorted to said trap.


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## StickaStick (Feb 16, 2014)

Itachi admitted inferiority when he said he needed EMS to surpass Obito who he thought to be Mads/his mentor. Obito also apparently kept Itachi out of the loop on his own abilities since Itachi thought a surprise Amatarasu would kill him.


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 16, 2014)




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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2014)

In scenario 2 Obito should have the six paths of Rin...right?


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## Nikushimi (Feb 16, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Rinnegan is still a big trump card you're not considering.
> 
> Madara taught Obito the jutsu, that still indicates he knows them. Read the OP.



Fan fic Obito with Nagato's Jutsu and proficiency wins.

Normal canon Obito loses.



> Those pages don't prove what you claim they prove.



The first example shows Itachi activating Susano'o before Sasuke and the second shows him executing a Jutsu before Kabuto, who was previously able to hit Sasuke with the same Jutsu. Either of these instances would support my claim, and we have both...



> Kakashi didn't use Kamui at all at the scale he used it against Obito*; it evidently was better in that battle.



We're not talking about scale, though.



> *The guy, other than A, to force the Yellow Flash to use Hiraishin in a battle of speed.



You forgot all the fodder ninja from Iwagakure, the Kyuubi...and Killer B apparently would've stabbed him before he could get away with Hiraishin, if Minato was being truthful.



> Pre-Juubito, that may indicate the Rinnegan requires more chakra.



The guy has Hashirama's DNA; how much more chakra could he possibly need?



> Post-Juubito, it was suggested Obito was holding back 'cause he was interested in Naruto's abilities.



After a certain point, he evidently just wanted to beat Naruto, based on the fact that he tried hitting him with the Rikudou Sennin's blade.



> Also if in doubt about Rinnegan, read the OP.



Fair enough.



Weapon said:


> "Goliath": Book Of Samuel
> 
> Imagine David (*Itachi*) v Goliath (*Obito*) right,
> 
> Except in this case, David misses all of his stones and he's the one who falls face first to the ground in an instant. It's a tragic ending / uncontrollable amount of denial from anyone who ever thought David could win.



It's funny that you would use that analogy here...



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're misinterpreting canon there. He referred to Itachi's surprise Fuuinjutsu. Canon shows Itachi feeling inferior to Tobi hence he resorted to said trap.



Itachi was dead, hence he resorted to said trap.

Obito>>>>>>dead Itachi; everyone knows that.



IchLiebe said:


> In scenario 2 Obito should have the six paths of Rin...right?





Permission to call it that from now on?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Fan fic Obito with Nagato's Jutsu and proficiency wins.
> 
> Normal canon Obito loses.



Canon Obito is what you call fanfic Obito. He was taught the Rinnegan jutsu. 



> Itachi was dead, hence he resorted to said trap.



Itachi couldn't confront the guy he thought he needed the EMS to face. Hence he set a trap.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 16, 2014)

Yes, yes you can Niku.

I think its kinda of fitting myself Nagato's pain influenced his thus the SPoPain, and Rin inspired Obito. I've used it a couple of times.


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## LyricalMessiah (Feb 17, 2014)

I don't see any reason to believe why Obito can get past through itachi's susano'o in order to kill the man behind the armor. One slash from Itachi's totsuka blade will be all it takes to end obito's life but it will not be all that easy for itachi to kill Obito as the latter can turn his body invisible of his own free will. Any further attacks from itachi for purpose of trying to injure obito would be rendered moot for 5 minutes because of obito's ability to turn invisible. Actually, in a very complex manner, Itachi's visual prowess is stronger than Obito's even though Obito has Hashirama's DNA, and Itachi is beyond smarter than Obito because he was prepared to do whatever possible to protect Kohona and Sasuke, even after death, he was more potent and toxic than ever before to Obito and Madara. To add more, they both have vast amounts of chakra so they won't necessarily be quick to deplete their stamina. Obito doesn't have Juubi.. With that in mind, he doesn't have Gedo statue or Pain's path, so his strength really is capped at his Kamui ability. Itachi's visual prowess is much higher than Obito's. You may ask me to justify what I just said; Because Itachi can use Susanno'o and Obito can't, he can use Tsukuyomi but Obito can't, he can use Amaterasu but Obito can't. So if anything, Itachi could easily cast a genjutsu on Obito, despite having Mangekyou Sharingan and Rinnegan, Obito's limited, IF he had his other eye, MAYBE, I'd give him an offensive advantage, but he doesn't, as far as I see.. 

Obito never had a chance against Itachi, and the only reason Itachi didn't use his wrath on Obito was CLEARLY  because he bragged about being Madara whose name alone makes you tremble in fear.


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## Edo Madara (Feb 18, 2014)

^
Tell me how Itachi can beat Obito, then.


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## Mercurial (Feb 18, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Kakashi's trump card is Kamui and that was disabled in Box World, just like Obito's.
> 
> They were both reduced to their basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu, and skill--and Kakashi won.
> 
> ...



Well I (and the manga) don't really think so:


*Spoiler*: __ 









As you can see, Kakashi could blitz Zabuza cutting his arm and piercing his heart in a swift motion.

Also, I'd like to remember that Kakashi counterblitzed the V2 Bijuu and landed Raikiri on them, and his speed was not the same, but not so far, from the one of Gai with Gates (it wouldn't have make sense for Gai to enter Gates but lower his speed, when they intercepted Obito's Kamui on Naruto and when they fought the V2). Also Obito could physically keep up with KCM Naruto's no Shunshin speed, and Kakashi outspeeded him.

I can agree on your other points, anyway. But Obito still has the tactical advantage on Itachi, he can play on stamina, with Kamui he can evade everything. You could say that Itachi would try the last resort with Izanami, but probably Obito knows about it thanks to Madara's teachings.


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