# Team Avatar vs. Animated Young Justice



## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

Team Avatar (Aang, Katara, Sokka, Toph, Zuko, Suki) vs the original animated Young Justice Team (Aqualad, Superboy, Miss Martian, Artemis, Kid Flash, Robin/Nightwing).

Round 1:  M'gann is restricted from mindscrewing.  No Avatar State, bloodbending, or Sozin's Comet.  Each side is in character.

Round 2:  No holds barred.  Mindscrewing, Sozin's Comet, bloodbending, and the Avatar State are all allowed.  Also, Conner gets a patch (he does not start with it on, though).

Battleground is the area outside Mount Justice (they can enter Mount Justice, but it is stripped of any weapons or defenses for the Young Justice team to take advantage of, and its security is disabled).


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

KF shits on all of them, not one other member is necessary.


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

Bart blitzes


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> Bart blitzes



He's not in this; by "Kid Flash" I mean Wally West.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

I was talking about Wally. Bart and Barry are near LS, and Wally's at least comparable, albeit a bit slower. Avatarverse can't do shit against a fucker who's relativistic.


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## Shinryu (Mar 17, 2013)

Avatar gets blitzed


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

Whoever that kid flash is. He still blitzes ... I don't watch YJ so I'm not sure if it was Bart or Wally


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

It's Wally

Not like ATLA would ever keep up with either


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## Utopia Realm (Mar 17, 2013)

Wally blitzes as others have mentioned.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

Since the answer seems to be "Wally blitzes", I'm now curious what explanation you can come up with for why Wally doesn't easily bring in non-superpowered villains like Cheshire and Sportsmaster.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Do CIS and PIS mean anything? They're also why Wally doesn't fuck up every single one of the rogues in his gallery in the comics.


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

Because Plot demand that every flash has a character problem that they forget that they are FTL when the plot doesn't need it


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Do CIS and PIS mean anything? They're also why Wally doesn't fuck up every single one of the rogues in his gallery in the comics.



Alright then.  Can you provide feats showing that animated Young Justice Kid Flash is on this level at all?  Because I can provide evidence that non-superhuman enemies can still give KF problems:

profiles

Mainly at 17:35.  KF's speed is not an "I win" card against Cheshire.

Counter-evidence?


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

Low-end feats and CIS/PIS are ignored in matches.

If he has a high end feat that's not an outlier, that's what his speed is


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## Shinryu (Mar 17, 2013)

Aang isnt even subsonic and ATverse humans have wall-house durability including Aang


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Low-end feats and CIS/PIS are ignored in matches.
> 
> If he has a high end feat that's not an outlier, that's what his speed is



I'm not disagreeing with that logic, as long as there's evidence for it.  I'm asking for that evidence in the first place.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

So Wally is peak-human while he can keep sufficient pace with full-speed Impulse, who, using a quick calc I did this morning, I can confirm has a casually MHS to sub-relativistic feat? Seems legit


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> So Wally is peak-human while he can keep sufficient pace with full-speed Impulse, who, using a quick calc I did this morning, I can confirm has a casually MHS to sub-relativistic feat? Seems legit



First of all, no, we see on several occasions that Wally cannot keep pace with Bart.

Secondly, I'm not saying Wally is peak human _per se_.  I'm saying that, according to what we see in the actual show, Wally's superpowers do not give him an overwhelming advantage in reactions or physical combat compared to a a non-superpowered human.


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

You should post that

The Impulse thing and Wally keeping up I mean


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Wally's shown to keep relative pace with full-speed Bart twice--once during his return as Kid Flash and once in the last episode. In both instances, Wally would have been lapped some absurd number of times if he wasn't a speed worthy of blitzing the epic fuck out of anyone in Avatarverse, and yet he was only lapped a few times in both cases.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Wally's shown to keep relative pace with full-speed Bart twice--once during his return as Kid Flash and once in the last episode. In both instances, Wally would have been lapped some absurd number of times if he wasn't a speed worthy of blitzing the epic fuck out of anyone in Avatarverse, and yet he was only lapped a few times in both cases.



Question:  If you are piloting a Mach 3 jet, does that mean you have superhuman reaction times?


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

No. Not that they'd need to; hit Aang with a fighter jet moving at mach 3 and he'd be pretty fucked up.

That said, Wally has reactions surpassing Aang's own speed. The fact that he can even see Bart and Barry when they move at relativistic speeds is a red flag. Plus, he does just fine dodging buildings and cars and such while performing a massively low-balled mach 1 feat I just calc'd, which is more than what can be said for Aang.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> No. Not that they'd need to; hit Aang with a fighter Jet moving at mach 3 and he'd be pretty fucked up.
> 
> That said, Wally has reactions surpassing Aang's own speed. The fact that he can even see Bart and Barry when they move at relativistic speeds is a red flag. Plus, he does just fine dodging buildings and cars and such while performing a massively low-balled mach 1 feat I just calc'd, which is more than what can be said for Aang.



Ok.  So we've established that high acceleration or top speed does not necessitate proportionally high reaction speeds _per se._

What is this feat you just calc'd?


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Wally runs from Boston to Seattle to get a heart to a dying queen. He has to do this in less than four hours. He takes his time in the first leg because he is much faster than necessary, but is interrupted by Vandal Savage and other obstacles along the way. Still, he makes it there with 20 minutes to spare. We have a statement of 15 minutes wasted on Savage, so that makes 35 minutes which we can account for that should be shaved off of the time. That makes the feat about 326 m/s. This is consistent with a statement in the same episode in which Wally says that he casually runs from Mount Justice to Boston to pick up the heart "just a few mph shy of the speed of sound".

Again, though, that's a real low-end feat.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Wally runs from Boston to Seattle to get a heart to a dying queen. He has to do this in less than four hours. He takes his time in the first leg because he is much faster than necessary, but is interrupted by Vandal Savage and other obstacles along the way. Still, he makes it there with 20 minutes to spare. We have a statement of 15 minutes wasted on Savage, so that makes 35 minutes which we can account for that should be shaved off of the time. That makes the feat about 326 m/s.
> 
> Again, though, that's a real low-end feat.



Ok, he's fast.  Never doubted that.  What does this prove about reactions during physical combat, though?


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

...........

a little beat above peak human(questionable) against MHS characters and you guys are really discussing this.

There's a feat that Kid flash was leaving behind Missile/Rockets in the Animated YJ I've seen it since my dad watched the show but not a regular viewer....... and it was shot at his back side....


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> Ok, he's fast.  Never doubted that.  What does this prove about reactions during physical combat, though?


He reacted to cars and buildings coming at him while running at mach 1, I don't see why he couldn't react to the Gaang. Also, what Qinglong posted.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> entirely



This might have a point if we didn't have examples of Kid Flash having trouble with non-superpowered humans.  The distinction between travel speeds and reaction speeds is true in real life (the pilot flying at Mach 3 example) and serves as an explanation for why KF has trouble with non-superpowered humans without simply ignoring it.



SuperTacocat said:


> He reacted to cars and buildings coming at him while running at mach 1, I don't see why he couldn't react to the Gaang. Also, what Qinglong posted.



Most of the US is open space.  He wouldn't have to deal with reacting to moving objects most of the way, and could reduce speed in areas he had to (like leaving Boston and entering Seattle).


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> He reacted to cars and buildings coming at him while running at mach 1, I don't see why he couldn't react to the Gaang. Also, what Qinglong posted.



this kind of question shouldn't be bothered... It's retarded. Because OP thinks that building, walls, houses, trees, people, animal, cars doesn't exist in a city.


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## Saitomaru (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> This might have a point if we didn't have examples of Kid Flash having trouble with non-superpowered humans.  The distinction between travel speeds and reaction speeds is true in real life (the pilot flying at Mach 3 example) and serves as an explanation for why KF has trouble with non-superpowered humans without simply ignoring it.



Bringing up low-ends to dispute 'high-ends'


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

We already told You* PIS Don't exist in OBD*.. Also I*N the Battledome everyone is bloodlusted* every fighter pitted with each other will use their power at the extent they should use it to beat their opponent without holding back. Your CIS bull crap won't and will not be factored in this kind of battle


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> This might have a point if we didn't have examples of Kid Flash having trouble with non-superpowered humans.  The distinction between travel speeds and reaction speeds is true in real life (the pilot flying at Mach 3 example) and serves as an explanation for why KF has trouble with non-superpowered humans without simply ignoring it.
> 
> 
> 
> Most of the US is open space.  He wouldn't have to deal with reacting to moving objects most of the way, and could reduce speed in areas he had to (like leaving Boston and entering Seattle).



It does have a point because you're using the same reasoning that Silver Surfer and Flash have bad 'reaction speed' because they get tagged by slower characters, and trying to claim his 'travel speed' isn't his 'combat speed'

aka, what MvC does


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> We already told You* PIS Don't exist in OBD*.. Also I*N the Battledome everyone is bloodlusted* every fighter pitted with each other will use their power at the extent they should use it to beat their opponent without holding back. Your CIS bull crap won't and will not be factored in this kind of battle



The spirit of scenario 1 was to impose some limitations that the characters would likely place on themselves in a fight.  If nothing else, Wally's capacity to speedblitz normal humans as easily as you say falls under this.  Would you say it's fair to add a condition along the lines of "Wally will fight as he has against normal humans in the show" to scenario 1?


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

Low End feats when they have higher non outlier feats aren't used as a basis for a character's speed ever, sorry.


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> The spirit of scenario 1 was to impose some limitations that the characters would likely place on themselves in a fight.  If nothing else, Wally's capacity to speedblitz normal humans as easily as you say falls under this.  Would you say it's fair to add a condition along the lines of "Wally will fight as he has against normal humans in the show" to scenario 1?





> Round 1: M'gann is restricted from mindscrewing. No Avatar State, bloodbending, or Sozin's Comet.
> 
> Round 2: No holds barred. Mindscrewing, Sozin's Comet, bloodbending, and the Avatar State are all allowed. Also, Conner gets a patch (he does not start with it on, though).



Scenario 1 Wally blitz
Scenario 2 Wally blitz
You only Limited M'gann mind screw what the fuck are you talking about

Also the General assumption in OBD
PIS off
Blood lusted
The location is Time and spirit room from DB unless it was stated.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)




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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Low End feats when they have higher non outlier feats aren't used as a basis for a character's speed ever, sorry.



profiles

At 10:50. How is his speed helping his reaction times there?  If this and the other situation where Cheshire gaving KF problems are outliers, surely you can provide an example where KF actually blitzes someone?



shade0180 said:


> Scenario 1 Wally blitz
> Scenario 2 Wally blitz
> You only Limited M'gann mind screw what the fuck are you talking about
> 
> ...



How could Wally blitz Aang if he's in the air?  And I limited Aang from using the Avatar State and Katara from using bloodbending.  Both would probably not use those powers if they were available except in extreme situations.

I'm aware of the OBD general assumptions.  Perhaps I should change scenario 1 to say that they are in character too.


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

because before Aang and his gang can even start to think they would get punched in the face also Aang doesn't start in the air.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> because before Aang and his gang can even start to think they would get punched in the face also Aang doesn't start in the air.



That's not an answer to the question.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> profiles
> 
> At 10:50. How is his speed helping his reaction times there?  If this and the other situation where Cheshire gaving KF problems are outliers, surely you can provide an example where KF actually blitzes someone?


How many times have we said that this is PIS, CIS, and shit-end feats? That shit holds no validity here. As for the blitzing, Kid doesn't need a feat of blitzing someone. If he has the speed, it can happen.



> How could Wally blitz Aang if he's in the air?  And I limited Aang from using the Avatar State and Katara from using bloodbending.  Both would probably not use those powers if they were available except in extreme situations.
> 
> I'm aware of the OBD general assumptions.  Perhaps I should change scenario 1 to say that they are in character too.


You don't have Aang starting in the air. He's not fast enough to fly up in the air before KF gets to him.

Evidently you are not aware of general OBD assumptions  And if you change it, then YJ team still babyshakes. They have TK, superior intellect in the form of Dick and Wally, and monstrous powerhouses in Kon and Kaldur'ahm. Plus, Wally can still blitz, even IC.


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> How many times have we said that this is PIS, CIS, and shit-end feats? That shit holds no validity here. As for the blitzing, Kid doesn't need a feat of blitzing someone. If he has the speed, it can happen.



So that's a no.  Let me get this straight:  You accept that someone can go fast without having proportionally high reaction speed.  There is also the point that it takes time to _accelerate_:  a jet capable of Mach 3 does not instantly hit Mach 3, after all.  This all provides a consistent explanation for why Wally can have a top speed like he does while still having low enough reactions to close-quarters combat speed for non-superpowered humans to be a problem.

And yet you insist that we just ignore these "low-end feats"...why?



> You don't have Aang starting in the air. He's not fast enough to fly up in the air before KF gets to him.
> 
> Evidently you are not aware of general OBD assumptions And if you change it, then YJ team still babyshakes. They have TK, superior intellect in the form of Dick and Wally, and monstrous powerhouses in Kon and Kaldur'ahm. Plus, Wally can still blitz, even IC.



*coughreactingtoOzai'slightningcoughreactingtoCombustionMan'sexplosioncough*

Sokka has "intellect", if that counts for anything measurable in the first place.  Toph and Aang are heavy hitters with rock attacks, and let's not forget that two Team Avatar members attack with the weakness of some Young Justice members.


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## shade0180 (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> So that's a no.  Let me get this straight:  You accept that someone can go fast without having proportionally high reaction speed.  There is also the point that it takes time to _accelerate_:  a jet capable of Mach 3 does not instantly hit Mach 3, after all.  This all provides a consistent explanation for why Wally can have a top speed like he does while still having low enough reactions to close-quarters combat speed for non-superpowered humans to be a problem.
> 
> And yet you insist that we just ignore these "low-end feats"...why?



I'm ignoring the jet because running on ground is pretty different from flying in the sky...

In the ground we have fucking walls, building, houses, trees, moving people, moving animal and Moving vehicles that he needs to avoid upon collision..... so that means he is fucking reacting to thing while he is at MHS.

In the sky you have a cloud that's all...




Oman said:


> *coughreactingtoOzai'slightningcoughreactingtoCombustionMan'sexplosioncough*
> 
> Sokka has "intellect", if that counts for anything measurable in the first place.  Toph and Aang are heavy hitters with rock attacks, and let's not forget that two Team Avatar members attack with the weakness of some Young Justice members.



Not sky to ground lightning... it's more of a Magic lightning


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> So that's a no.  Let me get this straight:  You accept that someone can go fast without having proportionally high reaction speed.  There is also the point that it takes time to _accelerate_:  a jet capable of Mach 3 does not instantly hit Mach 3, after all.  This all provides a consistent explanation for why Wally can have a top speed like he does while still having low enough reactions to close-quarters combat speed for non-superpowered humans to be a problem.
> 
> And yet you insist that we just ignore these "low-end feats"...why?


Because that's how the OBD works. Otherwise, we'd have _Thanos_ being weaker than those police officers in that scan that I just posted. I have some qualms with Thanos being weaker than anyone in this thread, let alone human-level NYC police officers, don't you?

Also, acceleration doesn't mean shit when he goes from 0 to relativistic in a second.



> *coughreactingtoOzai'slightningcoughreactingtoCombustionMan'sexplosioncough*


*coughcoughfictionalexplosionsareunquantifiableandavatarlightninghasbeenrefutedmanyatimecoughcough*



> Sokka has "intellect", if that counts for anything measurable in the first place.  Toph and Aang are heavy hitters with rock attacks, and let's not forget that two Team Avatar members attack with the weakness of some Young Justice members.


Sokka's intellect means nothing when it comes to guys like Dick Grayson and Wally West. It counts for tactical planning, which Robin has in spades. Toph does not hit hard enough to take on Kon, plus the fact that Kon has superhuman speed. Aqualad is comparable to Kon and would shit on Katara. Zuko can do anything to MM before she TKs him into a wall and knocks him out? News to me. Also, that's where Dick's and Kaldur's leadership come in. Either one orders Wally to punch Zuko's lights out, or Artemis to put an arrow through his head, or really anything.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Furthermore, reaction would be the ability to process thought at speeds which we are discussing, whatever the thought may be, correct? Well while running at these relativistic speeds, KF carries out a conversation with his uncle and cousin. He is clearly processing thought, and the conversation is obviously not real-time, as the viewer can see each speedster's leg movements, which isn't possible for the other characters present. Ergo, reaction time on par with the speed to absolutely murder everyone on the opposing team


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> Ok.  So we've established that high acceleration or top speed does not necessitate proportionally high reaction speeds _per se._


yes they do when you fight/manuever/do almost anything at those speeds

even simply running (i.e. putting one foot in front of the other) already requires those reactions



Avatar gets blitzed and stomped


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## Expelsword (Mar 17, 2013)

Oh. look it's another Oman Avatar thread where the Avatar side gets raped...
How did I miss this?


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## Wan (Mar 17, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> I'm ignoring the jet because running on ground is pretty different from flying in the sky...
> 
> In the ground we have fucking walls, building, houses, trees, moving people, moving animal and Moving vehicles that he needs to avoid upon collision..... so that means he is fucking reacting to thing while he is at MHS.
> 
> In the sky you have a cloud that's all...



The episode makes the point that Kid Flash's path was cleared beforehand by government forces.



SuperTacocat said:


> Because that's how the OBD works. Otherwise, we'd have _Thanos_ being weaker than those police officers in that scan that I just posted. I have some qualms with Thanos being weaker than anyone in this thread, let alone human-level NYC police officers, don't you?



Yes, I do, because it's grossly inconsistent, which is where the OBD rule comes from in the first place.  I'm arguing that the examples we have of Kid Flash don't have to be inconsistent.



> Also, acceleration doesn't mean shit when he goes from 0 to relativistic in a second.



Example?



> *coughcoughfictionalexplosionsareunquantifiableandavatarlightninghasbeenrefutedmanyatimecoughcough*



Trying not...to derail thread...



> Sokka's intellect means nothing when it comes to guys like Dick Grayson and Wally West. It counts for tactical planning, which Robin has in spades. Toph does not hit hard enough to take on Kon, plus the fact that Kon has superhuman speed. Aqualad is comparable to Kon and would shit on Katara. Zuko can do anything to MM before she TKs him into a wall and knocks him out? News to me. Also, that's where Dick's and Kaldur's leadership come in. Either one orders Wally to punch Zuko's lights out, or Artemis to put an arrow through his head, or really anything.



Sokka is Team Avatar's tactics guy as well; he planned the invasion of the Fire Nation capital and figured out how to take down Combustion Man in particular, but also other occasions.  Kaldur and Conner's approach would play right into Toph and Katara's hands, as their whole strategy relies on using their opponents' force against them.  Has MM knocked anyone out with her TK before?  And fyi Zuko has reacted to arrows before (so has Aang).  Wally might get a single punch on Zuko (which wouldn't be particularly strong; Impulse flat out states in "True Colors" that he's "fast, not strong", and Impulse > Kid Flash), but then he gets dragged down into close-quarters combat, which we see from his encounters with Cheshire that he is not fantastic at.



SuperTacocat said:


> Furthermore, reaction would be the ability to process thought at speeds which we are discussing, whatever the thought may be, correct? Well while running at these relativistic speeds, KF carries out a conversation with his uncle and cousin. He is clearly processing thought, and the conversation is obviously not real-time, as the viewer can see each speedster's leg movements, which isn't possible for the other characters present. Ergo, reaction time on par with the speed to absolutely murder everyone on the opposing team



Do you really want to go down the road that the visuals are an accurate representation of KF's speed by themselves?  If so, I can dig up plenty of examples of KF taking a second or so to get from one mook to the other, further evidence that his combat speed is not terrifically great.


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## Tacocat (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> Yes, I do, because it's grossly inconsistent, which is where the OBD rule comes from in the first place.  I'm arguing that the examples we have of Kid Flash don't have to be inconsistent.


Very well, then what about comic Flash? The one who's been seen to punch Superman the fuck out and run several tredecillion times the speed of light, yet gets hit by falling rocks? Rocks>Flash? 



> Example?


Very well, he goes from 0 to relativistic in about 10 seconds. Which still means he's reaching sub-relativistic in a second, which is nothing that Aang can react to. For evidence, check Season 2 episode 6 "Bloodlines" at about 12:20 for your feat.



> Sokka is Team Avatar's tactics guy as well; he planned the invasion of the Fire Nation capital and figured out how to take down Combustion Man in particular, but also other occasions.  Kaldur and Conner's approach would play right into Toph and Katara's hands, as their whole strategy relies on using their opponents' force against them.  Has MM knocked anyone out with her TK before?  And fyi Zuko has reacted to arrows before (so has Aang).  Wally might get a single punch on Zuko, but then he gets dragged down into close-quarters combat, which we see from his encounters with Cheshire that he is not fantastic at.


Implying Sokka's as smart as Dick, who's smarter than Wally who, even as a twelve-year-old before getting his accelerated brain function, was able to recreate the experiment that turned his uncle and Jay Garrick into speedsters. Wally's also at least on par with Bart in terms of intelligence, and Bart was able to build a functioning time machine from scraps.

Kaldur and Kon have actually been shown to be taught to use their opponents' force against them and learned from their mistakes. So that brute force shit is getting you nowhere, especially when Kon's at least is superhuman in speed.

Yes, MM has been shown to knock people out with TK before. Watch the show 

Do the arrows that they react to detonate? No.

Wally only needs a single punch. Do you understand the energy behind a fist traveling at that speed?

>Cheshire
>Low-end
>



> Do you really want to go down the road that the visuals are an accurate representation of KF's speed by themselves?  If so, I can dig up plenty of examples of KF taking a second or so to get from one mook to the other, further evidence that his combat speed is not terrifically great.


Except you entirely missed the point 

Bart's top speed is near LS. Wally was able to run alongside Bart without getting lapped several trillion times. He was also able to have a conversation with Bart while traveling at these speeds. Thus, he is able to process thought at these speeds, thus he is able to react at these speeds. Also, like Flutter said, he'd have to be able to react at these speeds to think to put one foot in front of the other while running. Otherwise, he couldn't run at these speeds at all.


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## Onomatopoeia (Mar 17, 2013)

Miss Martian uses telekinesis to snap their necks. GG.


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## Expelsword (Mar 17, 2013)

The thing is, you're putting slightly super human characters up against blatant superhumans with powers that the Avatar side has never seen.


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## Qinglong (Mar 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> The episode makes the point that Kid Flash's path was cleared beforehand by government forces.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, I do, because it's grossly inconsistent, which is where the OBD rule comes from in the first place.  I'm arguing that the examples we have of Kid Flash don't have to be inconsistent.



Except they are inconsistent with his high end feats and those aren't outliers since a Faster Flash is still above him.






> Do you really want to go down the road that the visuals are an accurate representation of KF's speed by themselves?  If so, I can dig up plenty of examples of KF taking a second or so to get from one mook to the other, further evidence that his *combat speed is not terrifically great.*



entirely


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Very well, then what about comic Flash? The one who's been seen to punch Superman the fuck out and run several tredecillion times the speed of light, yet gets hit by falling rocks? Rocks>Flash?



I'm not familiar with comic Flash, but as you indicate, in that case we actually have examples of him fighting as you say his speed would indicate he can.  YJ Kid Flash, not so much.

Is there any example, _any_, in the series of Kid Flash fighting as you claim he would?



> Very well, he goes from 0 to relativistic in about 10 seconds. Which still means he's reaching sub-relativistic in a second, which is nothing that Aang can react to. For evidence, check Season 2 episode 6 "Bloodlines" at about 12:20 for your feat.



What, this?

[YOUTUBE]BaiAdrXCxo4[/YOUTUBE]

I don't see any specific velocities or accelerations mentioned.



> Implying Sokka's as smart as Dick, who's smarter than Wally who, even as a twelve-year-old before getting his accelerated brain function, was able to recreate the experiment that turned his uncle and Jay Garrick into speedsters. Wally's also at least on par with Bart in terms of intelligence, and Bart was able to build a functioning time machine from scraps.



Hold on there.  Since when did scientific knowledge also apply to tactical knowledge and expertise?



> Kaldur and Kon have actually been shown to be taught to use their opponents' force against them and learned from their mistakes. So that brute force shit is getting you nowhere, especially when Kon's at least is superhuman in speed.



Certainly helped Conner against Mongol...oh wait.  Conner's style is still very much charge in and ask questions later; Kaldur is more deliberate I will admit.  But the point is that their raw strength is not enough to ensure victory over Toph or Katara.



> Yes, MM has been shown to knock people out with TK before. Watch the show



I do.  Are you going to provide evidence for your claim...?



> Do the arrows that they react to detonate? No.



Fair point, though if he sees one react beforehand, he'll know to incorporate firebending into defending against the arrow.



> Wally only needs a single punch. Do you understand the energy behind a fist traveling at that speed?



Impulse specifically states in "True Colors" that he's fast, but not strong.  Impulse's speed does not seem to transfer over into the ability to hit hard, and Wally < Bart.  It could also be the case that he could hit that hard but doesn't, as hitting that hard would seriously injure himself as well as his opponent.  In any case, the lack of power behind KF's hits is reflected in "Insecurity" when a hit from Wally at superspeed does not instantly KO Cheshire.



> Except you entirely missed the point
> 
> Bart's top speed is near LS. Wally was able to run alongside Bart without getting lapped several trillion times. He was also able to have a conversation with Bart while traveling at these speeds. Thus, he is able to process thought at these speeds, thus he is able to react at these speeds. Also, like Flutter said, he'd have to be able to react at these speeds to think to put one foot in front of the other while running. Otherwise, he couldn't run at these speeds at all.



You missed _my_ point.  Your point relied on the idea that the speed we see their legs moving relative to them speaking accurately depicts the speed of those things.  If that's the case, then I'll start using the visuals of Kid Flash fighting as well as the detail that he has trouble with non-superpowered humans like Cheshire.  Starting with this:

Link removed

At about 4:15.  We see KF certainly leveraging his superspeed in action, but it's apparently not instantaneous.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

There is no way this guy is seriously this stupid... How is it that you joined in '10 yet you don't understand simple shit like this---> **Click me friend**. You've got to be trolling... please tell me you're trolling... we have new sign-up trolls smarter than this.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> There is no way this guy is seriously this stupid... How is it that you joined in '10 yet you don't understand simple shit like this---> **Click me friend**. You've got to be trolling... please tell me you're trolling... we have new sign-up trolls smarter than this.



I've read the page.  It doesn't apply, because rather than having just a lack of examples of KF specifically fighting as his speed would dictate, we have examples of KF fighting much slower than that.  There's a few examples of Kid Flash doing non-combat things very fast which could indicate reaction time to match, but then we have just about every time he actually fights someone without superpowers (not outliers, _every time_), which should not have happened if Flash can fight and react as has been claimed.

It may be the case that remaining stable while running at extreme speeds is part of his superpower, but it doesn't carry over into close quarters combat.


----------



## Expelsword (Mar 18, 2013)

What is the situation on this debate?
I assumed it was an open-shut, but it's still going?


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Wait a second...





> *Character Induced Stupidity: *
> It should be on, but the characters should be out to win.
> 
> CIS refers to a character's tendencies in battle. Basically, just because a character can go all out from the start and use their most powerful abilities, or use tactics that would ensure victory, they most likely won't, if CIS is in effect.



A closer look at the OBD assumptions thread shows that CIS should be on.  Since the examples of Kid Flash not instantly taking out non-superpowered enemies happens independently of the plot, it's CIS, and thus should still be considered to happen in this scenario.

I've been trying to argue that it didn't even fall under CIS, but since it makes no difference for the match whether it's CIS or not, I don't need to.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> I've read the page.  It doesn't apply, because rather than having just a lack of examples of KF specifically fighting as his speed would dictate, we have examples of KF fighting much slower than that.  There's a few examples of Kid Flash doing non-combat things very fast which could indicate reaction time to match, but then we have just about every time he actually fights someone without superpowers (not outliers, _every time_), which should not have happened if Flash can fight and react as has been claimed.
> 
> It may be the case that remaining stable while running at extreme speeds is part of his superpower, but it doesn't carry over into close quarters combat.



Do the terms CIS and PIS mean nothing to you?



Expelsword said:


> What is the situation on this debate?
> I assumed it was an open-shut, but it's still going?



It is, there just happens to be a tard who doesn't understand what CIS, PIS, low-end showings, and inconsistent means.



Oman said:


> Wait a second...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its outdated, I had that pointed out to me in the Slendy vs The Shrike thread. Check it out. CIS and PIS are apparently assumed to be off (They're bloodlusted by default). Yes, that shit needs to be updated, no it doesn't help your case. YJ stomps 

/thread


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Its outdated, I had that pointed out to me in the Slendy vs The Shrike thread. Check it out. CIS and PIS are apparently assumed to be off (They're bloodlusted by default). Yes, that shit needs to be updated, no it doesn't help your case. YJ stomps
> 
> /thread



If it's outdated, someone should change it.  Anything else is just someone saying what they think the rules should be.

And bloodlust is included in the OBD general assumptions; it and CIS are not mutually exclusive.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> If it's outdated, someone should change it.



Said that already, months ago, still hasn't been updated. That's why people tell each other to lurk, that way people don't make these mistakes you've been making.



> And bloodlust is included in the OBD general assumptions; it and CIS are not mutually exclusive.



*Bloodlust
CIS*

What now? CIS and Bloodlust don't go together.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Said that already, months ago, still hasn't been updated. That's why people tell each other to lurk, that way people don't make these mistakes you've been making.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Last I checked, while the wiki is maintained by members of the OBD, the people who write for the wiki are not the same people who have the authority to change the rules in the actual OBD.

CIS and bloodlust are separate things.  You can have intent to kill while still suffering from your own stupidity or other things that fall under CIS.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 18, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> What is the situation on this debate?
> I assumed it was an open-shut, but it's still going?



Oman is the thread maker,Oman loves avatar.
So of course it can  be dragged out.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> Last I checked, while the wiki is maintained by members of the OBD, the people who write for the wiki are not the same people who have the authority to change the rules in the actual OBD.
> 
> CIS and bloodlust are separate things.  You can have intent to kill while still suffering from your own stupidity or other things that fall under CIS.



I didn't link those pages as proof of authority, I linked them since they had meaning and it kinda disproved the idea that you can be bloodlusted AKA: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



Bloodlust refers to a state where a character is fighting without any inhibitions, and cares about nothing other than defeating the enemy...A bloodlusted character will not be victim to CIS, and will be much more likely to speedblitz (if doing so is within their powerset).




and still be affected by CIS: 
*Spoiler*: __ 



CIS refers to mental limits of a character that cause them to perform at below the true potential of their powers.




How does fighting without inhibitions go with self-imposed limits? So you're saying a character can fight with their full potential (I.e- Superman fight at FTL speeds) yet not actually use their abilities to the fullest for one reason or another (I.e- Superman not going FTL on earth)? They contradict each other and you still think they go together... them being two separate terms doesn't mean shit. 

Go away, you're fucking retardeddrunk.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

You're correct in that a strong amount of bloodlust will counteract self-imposed limits.  A moral unwillingness to kill or use techniques that would kill, for example, would be overridden by bloodlust.  Not all CIS is consciously self-imposed, though.  If someone is literally too dumb to figure out that pulling a gun's trigger will make the gun shoot, no amount of bloodlust is going to make them smart enough to do it.  The same would apply in less extreme cases, such as Wally not knowing to quickly end fights against non-superpowered humans with his speed.

I still don't actually think that Wally's underwhelming showings are a result of CIS, though.  I think there is a legitimate reason that he can't or doesn't use his speed in physical combat, and I've mentioned some possibilities earlier in the thread.  The point though is that whether there's a legitimate reason or it's just CIS, Wally does not and will not use his speed in combat as is being argued.


----------



## Expelsword (Mar 18, 2013)

This is a thread for the Meta Battledome, gentlemen.


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## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> You're correct in that a strong amount of bloodlust will counteract self-imposed limits.  A moral unwillingness to kill or use techniques that would kill, for example, would be overridden by bloodlust.  Not all CIS is consciously self-imposed, though.  If someone is literally too dumb to figure out that pulling a gun's trigger will make the gun shoot, no amount of bloodlust is going to make them smart enough to do it.  The same would apply in less extreme cases, such as Wally not knowing to quickly end fights against non-superpowered humans with his speed.
> 
> I still don't actually think that Wally's underwhelming showings are a result of CIS, though.  I think there is a legitimate reason that he can't or doesn't use his speed in physical combat, and I've mentioned some possibilities earlier in the thread.  The point though is that whether there's a legitimate reason or it's just CIS, Wally does not and will not use his speed in combat as is being argued.



I couldn't care less about what you think, the facts are CIS and PIS are off by default and bloodlust negates any unwillingness that would normally plague a character. Wally not quickly ending fights with his vastly superior speed would actually probably fall under PIS rather than CIS. The same goes for comic Flash a lot of the time. As in, he doesn't use his MFTL speeds most of the time just because if he did the story/plot wouldn't last nearly long enough. Can you provide any proof that those low-end feats are proof that he CAN'T use his speed in combat? Because those same feats you keep desperately referring to can be excused as PIS and CIS (depending on the feat and your perspective). And before you bring it up again: entirely


TL;DR- You're being a tard, Wally blitzes. gg


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I couldn't care less about what you think, the facts are CIS and PIS are off by default and bloodlust negates any unwillingness that would normally plague a character. Wally not quickly ending fights with his vastly superior speed would actually probably fall under PIS rather than CIS. The same goes for comic Flash a lot of the time. As in, he doesn't use his MFTL speeds most of the time just because if he did the story/plot wouldn't last nearly long enough. Can you provide any proof that those low-end feats are proof that he CAN'T use his speed in combat? Because those same feats you keep desperately referring to can be excused as PIS and CIS (depending on the feat and your perspective). And before you bring it up again: entirely
> 
> 
> TL;DR- You're being a tard, Wally blitzes. gg



Funny thing, I couldn't really care less about what you think the rules should be either, the OBD Assumptions thread pinned to the top of this section says CIS is assumed present in matches unless otherwise stated.

The low-end feats are proof that he _doesn't_ use his speed in combat.  This indicates that he either is not physically able to or he does not know to do it.  And no matter how many times you link to that page, it doesn't change the fact that it does not apply.  The "Combat Speed Fallacy" is when the character in question does not have any combat speed feats specifically but has other speed feats.  Kid Flash not only lacks combat speed feats, but his actual combat feats are devoid of such speed where he should be using it if the claims about his speed are true.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> Funny thing, I couldn't really care less about what you think the rules should be either, the OBD Assumptions thread pinned to the top of this section says CIS is assumed present in matches unless otherwise stated.



As I already said, that shit is outdated. If you want it updated go bother a mod. CIS and PIS are assumed off and characters are assumed to be bloodlusted by default unless stated otherwise by the OP. You've been here too long to be this stupid. How the hell did you manage to break 1000 posts? Oh wait, this is how you did it. Just stupidly argue things that make no sense until either you get bored or I get bored.



> The low-end feats are proof that he _doesn't_ use his speed in combat.  This indicates that he either is not physically able to or he does not know to do it.  And no matter how many times you link to that page, it doesn't change the fact that it does not apply.  The "Combat Speed Fallacy" is when the character in question does not have any combat speed feats specifically but has other speed feats.  Kid Flash not only lacks combat speed feats, but his actual combat feats are devoid of such speed where he should be using it if the claims about his speed are true.



Why would we take low-end feats over his higher, more consistent feats? Do you have any proof that those low-end showings aren't just the product of PIS like everyone else has said? There are numerous cases where characters in fiction do this shit (not use their top-whatever for no apparent reason). The CSF applies quite nicely and does not only apply 'when a character lacks combat speed feats' did you even read that page? 





> So logically, demonstrating "travel speed" feats in combination with sensory and reaction/thought speed feats should be sufficient to establish a character's "combat speed". However, the trolls who use this argument almost never accept this, instead trying to define "combat speed" as something that can only be measured in combat, which is retarded.


 almost exactly what you're doing right now, except you're taking one step further.


> In fiction, an inconsistency is when a character has an occurrence usually regarding power that differs from the norm. An inconsistency can work both ways, being either a *low showing* or a high showing. Generally, inconsistencies should not be accepted unless there is a good reason for it (such as a character who usually holds back on his or her full power).



Underlined is negated by CIS being off by default.
Tier 6, 7, and 8

Edit: I've grown tired of this, unless you can provide proof that the Avatar characters can react to MHS characters they get blitzed in S1 and they get mindfucked in S2.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> As I already said, that shit is outdated. If you want it updated go bother a mod. CIS and PIS are assumed off and characters are assumed to be bloodlusted by default unless stated otherwise by the OP. You've been here too long to be this stupid. How the hell did you manage to break 1000 posts? Oh wait, this is how you did it. Just stupidly argue things that make no sense until either you get bored or I get bored.



You're the one saying it should be changed.  Until someone in authority decides to change it, I'll go with what is actually in the rules.



> Why would we take low-end feats over his higher, more consistent feats? Do you have any proof that those low-end showings aren't just the product of PIS like everyone else has said? There are numerous cases where characters in fiction do this shit (not use their top-whatever for no apparent reason). The CSF applies quite nicely and does not only apply 'when a character lacks combat speed feats' did you even read that page?  almost exactly what you're doing right now, except you're taking one step further.



Straw man.  I am not saying to take one set of feats over the other.  I am saying that there are explanations, whether CIS or physical limitations, that allow both high-end and low-end feats to coexist consistently without ignoring one or the other.  And it's not my job to prove something is "not PIS", that's a burden of proof fallacy.



> Underlined is negated by CIS being off by default.
> Tier 6, 7, and 8



"Holding back" is a conscious decision; not knowing to use your full potential is not.  And CIS is still off.


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## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman using an out of date thread to support bad argument when his last ATLA thread was using new assumptions.

This is actually sorta funny.


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## kaiyokoon (Mar 18, 2013)

It's funny but it's a pathetic argument coming from a guy with that many posts. How is his rep still in the green?


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Oman using an out of date thread to support bad argument when his last ATLA thread was using new assumptions.
> 
> This is actually sorta funny.



What thread are you refering to?



kaiyokoon said:


> It's funny but it's a pathetic argument coming from a guy with that many posts. How is his rep still in the green?



Because I post in sections other than the OBD.


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## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

Gaara vs Aang


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## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

I was looking over my rep (and chuckling a bit at the comment Oman left for his revenge neg) and I noticed I had been negged by Oman before. Curious about the circumstances, I clicked the link and guess what I found. This  of a thread. I had forgotten about Oman and his habit of either wanking avatar characters or simply ignoring logic when it benefited the avatar verse. I guess he isn't a troll, he's just dense.

Edit: Ninja'd


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Gaara vs Aang



And where exactly did I use the "new assumptions" in that thread?



Saitomaru said:


> I was looking over my rep (and chuckling a bit at the comment Oman left for his revenge neg) and I noticed I had been negged by Oman before. Curious about the circumstances, I clicked the link and guess what I found. This  of a thread. I had forgotten about Oman and his habit of either wanking avatar characters or simply ignoring logic when it benefited the avatar verse. I guess he isn't a troll, he's just dense.
> 
> Edit: Ninja'd



You still have rep from the beginning of last November in your rep feed?  Huh.


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## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

Those were general assumptions used in the thread... note how no one brought up that general assumptions thread from '07. Not a single one.

Don't start acting like you don't know what thread it is now


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Those were general assumptions used in the thread... note how no one brought up that general assumptions thread from '07. Not a single one.
> 
> Don't start acting like you don't know what thread it is now



I certainly recall the thread, and I'm digging through it right now to see if I can find what you're talking about.  You'll have to forgive me if I can't remember every single post I made in it.  I would appreciate it if you could point me to the specific post you are referring to.


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## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

The point



































Your head.


Low End feats when they have higher feats that aren't outliers are never used to determine a character's stats (and you sure as hell don't want to bring up ATLA's low ends), you've tried to use the combat speed fallacy multiple times which is laughable, Wally or MM takes this alone


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## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> You still have rep from the beginning of last November in your rep feed?  Amusing.



Yeah, I don't get negged or +repped often, I don't post much either.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> The point
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What point?  I thought we were now talking about me using the "newer" assumptions to back up my claims in the Gaara vs. Aang thread.  I still haven't found an example of me doing that in the thread.  I want to get to the bottom of this, or do you just want to drop it?


----------



## Bullbob (Mar 18, 2013)

Wow, the level of wanking  he did in that thread coupled with a "all speed equalized" clause tells me that the OP should stick to posting in the other sections... I specially laughed at the  rock shield argument he kept making in that thread and implying that Gaara couldn't pierce through it fast enough...
Edit: just corrected a word


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

The point was the newer assumptions (PIS CIS Off BL on) were assumed in that thread and the majority of '12 threads since before I joined with the assumptions thread only being brought up a handful a times (Saito's thread and one other being the most recent examples I can think of)

Wally or MM takes this alone, lolcombatspeedfallacy argument, YJ wins


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## Bullbob (Mar 18, 2013)

OP is the Nick Diaz of thread makinf. You give him an argument, then claims it's not really an argument in his eye so you have to make up another one since this one isn'tvalid to him loll. Makes me laugh when he keeps saying "so anyone is gonna argue and give arguments now" when the last 10  posts have 5 different arguments as to why his cherished Avatar team gets raped.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> The point was the newer assumptions (PIS CIS Off BL on) were assumed in that thread and the majority of '12 threads since before I joined with the assumptions thread only being brought up a handful a times (Saito's thread and one other being the most recent examples I can think of)
> 
> Wally or MM takes this alone, lolcombatspeedfallacy argument, YJ wins



Oh, so you're not saying that I specifically used the "bloodlust means no CIS" assumption?  Then I'm not sure what the point of bringing up my past thread was at all.


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

I'll take that as you failing to come up with any counter argument to YJ winning


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> I'll take that as you failing to come up with any counter argument to YJ winning



Who said anything about arguing that Team YJ doesn't win?


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

Are you really trying to be this obtuse as the OP

Thanks for conceding, have a nice day


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Qinglong said:


> Are you really trying to be this obtuse as the OP
> 
> Thanks for conceding, have a nice day



I do think that Young Justice has a strong chance of winning either scenario.  I just don't buy the whole Kid Flash blitzes argument when he's never done such a thing in the whole show at the moments he logically should have.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> I do think that Young Justice has a strong chance of winning either scenario.  I just don't buy the whole Kid Flash blitzes argument when he's never done such a thing in the whole show at the moments he logically should have.



PIS. You've been here to long to not understand this. But, as the Gaara vs Aang thread shows, you make a point of being as dense as possible.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> PIS. You've been here to long to not understand this. But, as the Gaara vs Aang thread shows, you make a point of being as dense as possible.



Wally's underwhelming showings against non-superpowered humans happens several times regardless of plot.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> Wally's underwhelming showings against non-superpowered humans happens several times because the plot demands it.



Fixed that for you


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> I'm not familiar with comic Flash, but as you indicate, in that case we actually have examples of him fighting as you say his speed would indicate he can.  YJ Kid Flash, not so much.


Do you realize that he doesn't even need to fight (not that he can't), as he just needs to clothesline the Gaang at relativistic speeds and they'd be wasted?


> Is there any example, _any_, in the series of Kid Flash fighting as you claim he would?


He doesn't need to; saying he won't is a combat speed fallacy.



> What, this?
> 
> [YOUTUBE]BaiAdrXCxo4[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> I don't see any specific velocities or accelerations mentioned.


Good thing you didn't watch the next part of the episode, wherein Flash says he can move near-LS.



> Hold on there.  Since when did scientific knowledge also apply to tactical knowledge and expertise?


Implying Dick only has scientific knowledge. I was simply using that as a basis for both Dick and Wally. Dick and Kaldur collaborated to outsmart the Light, which is comprised of super geniuses such as Vandal Savage, Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luthor (who is stated to be one of the top five most intelligent men in the DC Universe), et cetera. As Nightwing, Dick's tactical planning is infinitesimally sub par to Batman's. You really think Sokka can outmaneuver any of these men listed?



> Certainly helped Conner against Mongol...oh wait.  Conner's style is still very much charge in and ask questions later; Kaldur is more deliberate I will admit.  But the point is that their raw strength is not enough to ensure victory over Toph or Katara.


Implying Conner had any chance in hell against Mongul in the first place 



> Impulse specifically states in "True Colors" that he's fast, but not strong.  Impulse's *speed does not seem to transfer over into the ability to hit hard*, and Wally < Bart.  It could also be the case that he could hit that hard but doesn't, as hitting that hard would seriously injure himself as well as his opponent.  In any case, the lack of power behind KF's hits is reflected in "Insecurity" when a hit from Wally at superspeed does not instantly KO Cheshire.


Yes it does. Do you not understand kinetic energy?



> You missed _my_ point.  Your point relied on the idea that the speed we see their legs moving relative to them speaking accurately depicts the speed of those things.  If that's the case, then I'll start using the visuals of Kid Flash fighting as well as the detail that he has trouble with non-superpowered humans like Cheshire.  Starting with this:


That feat isn't based on visuals  If that conversation were real-time, then they'd be speaking, relatively, quadrillions of times slower than any normal human speaks. The fuck sense does that make for a Flash? Not to mention that they've been shown to have superspeed conversations before.



> here
> 
> At about 4:15.  We see KF certainly leveraging his superspeed in action, but it's apparently not instantaneous.


It doesn't need to be instantaneous. Traveling from 0 to relativistic in ten seconds still means he's going sub-relativistic (mach 8,800, roughly) in a single second. How in the hell doesn anyone in Avatar react to that?



Oman said:


> I've read the page.  It doesn't apply, because rather than having just a lack of examples of KF specifically fighting as his speed would dictate, we have examples of KF fighting much slower than that.  There's a few examples of Kid Flash doing non-combat things very fast which could indicate reaction time to match, but then we have just about every time he actually fights someone without superpowers (not outliers, _every time_), which should not have happened if Flash can fight and react as has been claimed.
> 
> It may be the case that remaining stable while running at extreme speeds is part of his superpower, but it doesn't carry over into close quarters combat.


This is the definition of a combat speed fallacy :heston



Oman said:


> You're correct in that a strong amount of bloodlust will counteract self-imposed limits.  A moral unwillingness to kill or use techniques that would kill, for example, would be overridden by bloodlust.  Not all CIS is consciously self-imposed, though.  If someone is literally too dumb to figure out that pulling a gun's trigger will make the gun shoot, no amount of bloodlust is going to make them smart enough to do it.  The same would apply in less extreme cases, such as Wally not knowing to quickly end fights against non-superpowered humans with his speed.
> 
> I still don't actually think that Wally's underwhelming showings are a result of CIS, though.  I think there is a legitimate reason that he can't or doesn't use his speed in physical combat, and I've mentioned some possibilities earlier in the thread.  The point though is that whether there's a legitimate reason or it's just CIS, Wally does not and will not use his speed in combat as is being argued.


It doesn't matter what you think it is; if he has higher showings that are not outliers, then his shit showings become PIS and/or CIS as far as the OBD is concerned.



Oman said:


> The low-end feats are proof that he _doesn't_ use his speed in combat.  This indicates that he either is not physically able to or he does not know to do it.  And no matter how many times you link to that page, it doesn't change the fact that it does not apply.  The "Combat Speed Fallacy" is when the character in question does not have any combat speed feats specifically but has other speed feats.  Kid Flash not only lacks combat speed feats, but his actual combat feats are devoid of such speed where he should be using it if the claims about his speed are true.


Low-end feats are _not_ proof that he can't use his speed in combat, they are proof that CIS and PIS exist in the verse and are not used in versus matches concerning the OBD.



Oman said:


> I do think that Young Justice has a strong chance of winning either scenario.  I just don't buy the whole Kid Flash blitzes argument when he's never done such a thing in the whole show at the moments he logically should have.


Except he exhibits the feats to be able to do so. So the fact that he's never actually done it means jack shit to us.



Oman said:


> Wally's underwhelming showings against non-superpowered humans happens several times regardless of plot.


They happen _because_ of plot. Otherwise he wouldn't have relativistic showings.

Also, the YJ team communicates telepathically via Miss Martian. This combined with a speedster means that once a teammate screams danger, he or she can be rushed out of harm's way by Kid Flash. So even if Kid _couldn't_ fight at relativistic speeds, he still ensures that absolutely no one on his team will even be tagged by the likes of the Gaang.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Do you realize that he doesn't even need to fight (not that he can't), as he just needs to clothesline the Gaang at relativistic speeds and they'd be wasted?
> 
> He doesn't need to; saying he won't is a combat speed fallacy.



It's not like he moves, or at least quickly accelerate to, relativistic speeds.



> Good thing you didn't watch the next part of the episode, wherein Flash says he can move near-LS.



Which is wonderfully not-specific.  What does he consider "near-lightspeed?" .1c?  .01c?  Anything's way, way closer to lightspeed than a normal person could move.  And either way, this is a feat for Flash, not Kid Flash.



> Implying Dick only has scientific knowledge. I was simply using that as a basis for both Dick and Wally. Dick and Kaldur collaborated to outsmart the Light, which is comprised of super geniuses such as Vandal Savage, Ra's al Ghul, Lex Luthor (who is stated to be one of the top five most intelligent men in the DC Universe), et cetera. As Nightwing, Dick's tactical planning is infinitesimally sub par to Batman's. You really think Sokka can outmaneuver any of these men listed?



No, I wasn't implying that.  You were using scientific knowledge examples as if it somehow meant their tactical knowledge should match.  It doesn't.  Einstein, Newton, Kepler, etc., didn't moonlight as generals.  It's too hard to quantify tactical knowledge and give a concrete answer, but it's not like Team Avatar can't come up with their own strategy in a pinch.  It might be slower than Young Justice's strategy process for other reasons, such as M'gann's telepathy, which can be a advantage for YJ.



> Implying Conner had any chance in hell against Mongul in the first place







> Yes it does. Do you not understand kinetic energy?



I understand that, if we're assuming everything about Flash/Impulse/Kid Flash's speed is physically accurate, there should be massive sonic booms leveling everything in the area around them.  There aren't.  Saying that they can do something because physics would demand it doesn't work because ordinary physics is obviously not entirely in play here.  Impulse should have been able to take out Black Beetle himself if that was the case.  Either he can't bring that energy to bear as a hit, or he doesn't have the durability to survive such a hit himself.



> That feat isn't based on visuals  If that conversation were real-time, then they'd be speaking, relatively, quadrillions of times slower than any normal human speaks. The fuck sense does that make for a Flash? Not to mention that they've been shown to have superspeed conversations before.



Yes, Flash and Impulse got into a superspeed conversation, which Wally said he could only catch every fifth word or so.  The fact that Wally could follow what Flash and Impulse were saying in your example indicates they weren't even speaking as fast as in that conversation.



> It doesn't need to be instantaneous. Traveling from 0 to relativistic in ten seconds still means he's going sub-relativistic (mach 8,800, roughly) in a single second. How in the hell doesn anyone in Avatar react to that?



If he was going at relativistic speeds, he would certainly appear instantaneous, practically teleporting.  He doesn't.



> This is the definition of a combat speed fallacy :heston



Really?  I don't see anything on the page referring to a situation where the character in question not only lacks direct combat speed feats but has combat speed feats which are necessarily low.



> It doesn't matter what you think it is; if he has higher showings that are not outliers, then his shit showings become PIS and/or CIS as far as the OBD is concerned.



Argumentum ad populum, with not even a lot of populum.



> Low-end feats are _not_ proof that he can't use his speed in combat, they are proof that CIS and PIS exist in the verse and are not used in versus matches concerning the OBD.



CIS is considered on according to OBD general assumptions, and in any case, the characters are in character for scenario 1.



> They happen _because_ of plot. Otherwise he wouldn't have relativistic showings.



No, it happens independently of the plot. Regardless of what the plot is, he still performs poorly against non-superpowered humans.  If anything, that's CIS.  But it doesn't have to be either; he can have the relativistic showings be consistent with his demonstrated capabilities and limitations in combat.



> Also, the YJ team communicates telepathically via Miss Martian. This combined with a speedster means that once a teammate screams danger, he or she can be rushed out of harm's way by Kid Flash. So even if Kid _couldn't_ fight at relativistic speeds, he still ensures that absolutely no one on his team will even be tagged by the likes of the Gaang.



Good point; he can't protect every team member simultaneously, but he can certainly provide support.  So what could Team Avatar do once (or if) they figure out that a super-fast person is giving them support?  We see in "Infiltrator" that an unexpected obstruction on the ground such as many small ball bearings can slip up KF, so perhaps Katara could do the same with some ice.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 18, 2013)

>Near Lightspeed
>0.1c
>:yeolderyoma
>we're done here.


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> It's not like he moves, or at least quickly accelerate to, relativistic speeds.


Except he does in order to not be lapped by Flash and Impules sveral quadrillion times.



> Which is wonderfully not-specific.  What does he consider "near-lightspeed?" .1c?  .01c?  Anything's way, way closer to lightspeed than a normal person could move.  And either way, this is a feat for Flash, not Kid Flash.


.01c is still fast enough to blitz the anyone in Avatarverse. I don't care how you slice that one. And, as I've said many a time, Wally has kept pace with Flash twice now. I don't care if they're not equal, someone who isn't fast enough to blitz Aang would _never_ be able to keep up with full-speed Flash.



> No, I wasn't implying that.  You were using scientific knowledge examples as if it somehow meant their tactical knowledge should match.  It doesn't.  Einstein, Newton, Kepler, etc., didn't moonlight as generals.  It's too hard to quantify tactical knowledge and give a concrete answer, but it's not like Team Avatar can't come up with their own strategy in a pinch.  It might be slower than Young Justice's strategy process for other reasons, such as M'gann's telepathy, which can be a advantage for YJ.


This doesn't answer my question. Do you believe Sokka could outsmart several of the the smartest men in DCverse, a verse known for having a million-and-one geniuses in its repertoire? 



> I understand that, if we're assuming everything about Flash/Impulse/Kid Flash's speed is physically accurate, there should be massive sonic booms leveling everything in the area around them.  There aren't.  Saying that they can do something because physics would demand it doesn't work because ordinary physics is obviously not entirely in play here.  Impulse should have been able to take out Black Beetle himself if that was the case.  Either he can't bring that energy to bear as a hit, or he doesn't have the durability to survive such a hit himself.


First of all, if we go by this, then 99.99% of the calculations we have here on the OBD will be thrown out.

Second, please understand the character you are debating against before actually debating against him/her. Speedforce protects the Earth and various speedsters themselves from the outrageous speeds they run. This is why Flash does not lifewipe every time he runs LS in Earth's atmosphere. And the fact that he can survive hits from Superboy indicate that he does have durability sufficient to stand hitting the Gaang with enough speed and force to take them out.



> Yes, Flash and Impulse got into a superspeed conversation, which Wally said he could only catch every fifth word or so.  The fact that Wally could follow what Flash and Impulse were saying in your example indicates they weren't even speaking as fast as in that conversation.


It doesn't matter; every fifth word or so in a conversation involving speedsters is still much better in terms of perception than what Aang has. Plus, you still haven't told us how Wally is supposed to know to put one foot in front of the other if he can't react at the speeds he moves 



> If he was going at relativistic speeds, he would certainly appear instantaneous, practically teleporting.  He doesn't.


Fucking lol, you were accusing me of debating using animation while you're debating using animation  Animation doesn't indicate shit. Take the Rayquaza feat; Ray has a meteor coming at him. He gets the fuck out of the way with absolutely no "teleportation" or speed lines, yet if he wasn't moving at mach 190, then he would have been smacked in the face by a fucking meteor.

Just so you know, if animation were true to physics, we'd have some pretty fucking boring anime fights, as even sub-sonic would be faster than the human eye. Where would DBZ be now? 



> Really?  I don't see anything on the page referring to a situation where the character in question not only lacks direct combat speed feats but has combat speed feats which are necessarily low.


Except he has combat speed, because he has the three things necessary for combat speed listed on that page. We've already proven that some multitude of times. Also, if you want to go by low-end, then Aang gets fucked up by peak-humans as well 



> Argumentum ad populum, with not even a lot of populum.


If you don't like it, then leave. That's how the OBD operates. You don't have to believe it's true, but here it is held to be true, and you're not changing that because the general consensus for this thread is that the verse you intended to win would get stomped.



> CIS is considered on according to OBD general assumptions, and in any case, the characters are in character for scenario 1.


It's not. Go fucking appeal to Mike, or Wombat, or Willy. They'll tell you the same. It doesn't matter anyway; not one of your avatar characters is taking Kon down without bloodbending.



> No, it happens independently of the plot. Regardless of what the plot is, he still performs poorly against non-superpowered humans.  If anything, that's CIS.  But it doesn't have to be either; he can have the relativistic showings be consistent with his demonstrated capabilities and limitations in combat.


What in the fuck are you talking about?  PIS is stupidity induced when the plot finds it convenient. If it finds it convenient multiple times, then there are multiple cases of PIS. Having several cases of low-end showings doesn't make PIS invalid.

He doesn't need them to be consistent; as long as they're not outliers (which they're not, as Flash and Impulse have higher showings and Wally is a speedster) then his best showings are regarded as his potential stats, which we use here in the OBD. Low-end feats are completely disregarded. Same goes for Aang and his crew, which is why they are not all complete shit.



> Good point; he can't protect every team member simultaneously, but he can certainly provide support.  So what could Team Avatar do once (or if) they figure out that a super-fast person is giving them support?  We see in "Infiltrator" that an unexpected obstruction on the ground such as many small ball bearings can slip up KF, so perhaps Katara could do the same with some ice.


Wally is a) fast enough to keep everyone safe before anyone on Team Avatar can attack, so simultaneously or not, no one on team YJ is getting hurt, b) too fast for Katara's perceptions--she won't even be able to _see_ someone running at mach 1, much less relativistic speeds, and c) fast enough to perceive time as nearly stopped when dealing with folks as slow as Team Avatar, so it won't matter if she does construct anything, because he'll already be out of the way.


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Except he does in order to not be lapped by Flash and Impules sveral quadrillion times.



He does quickly get lapped by Flash and Impulse several times over.



> .01c is still fast enough to blitz the anyone in Avatarverse. I don't care how you slice that one. And, as I've said many a time, Wally has kept pace with Flash twice now. I don't care if they're not equal, someone who isn't fast enough to blitz Aang would _never_ be able to keep up with full-speed Flash.



"Kept pace" is the same as "fail at keeping up so hard that he 
*Spoiler*: __ 



dies


?  News to me.




> This doesn't answer my question. Do you believe Sokka could outsmart several of the the smartest men in DCverse, a verse known for having a million-and-one geniuses in its repertoire?



Tactically?  I don't see why not.  It's not like what we see from them is on the level of freaking Patton or Rommel.  Though YJ has the advantage of two more tactically-minded team members as opposed to one.



> First of all, if we go by this, then 99.99% of the calculations we have here on the OBD will be thrown out.







> Second, please understand the character you are debating against before actually debating against him/her. Speedforce protects the Earth and various speedsters themselves from the outrageous speeds they run. This is why Flash does not lifewipe every time he runs LS in Earth's atmosphere. And the fact that he can survive hits from Superboy indicate that he does have durability sufficient to stand hitting the Gaang with enough speed and force to take them out.



Thanks for giving the reason why normal physics would not be in play for KF (though I recall hearing that Greg Weisman said Speed Force doesn't exist in animated Young Justice).  When has Kid Flash taken a hit from Superboy?



> It doesn't matter; every fifth word or so in a conversation involving speedsters is still much better in terms of perception than what Aang has. Plus, you still haven't told us how Wally is supposed to know to put one foot in front of the other if he can't react at the speeds he moves



Sure, but it's not evidence of being relativistic; if Barry and Bart were speaking at relativistic speeds, the conversation would have been done within a second.

He can run stably because it's his superpower.  If the Speed Force protects his surrounding from his speed, it could also protect him from his surrounding.



> Fucking lol, you were accusing me of debating using animation while you're debating using animation  Animation doesn't indicate shit. Take the Rayquaza feat; Ray has a meteor coming at him. He shits out of the way with absolutely "teleportation" or speed lines, yet if he wasn't moving at mach 190, then he would have been smacked in the face by a fucking meteor.
> 
> Just so you know, if animation were true to physics, we'd have some pretty fucking boring anime fights, as even sub-sonic would be faster than the human eye. Where would DBZ be now?



That was the _point_.  You started supporting your argument with visuals first, and I brought up the other implications of putting stock in the visuals.  If you drop supporting your argument with visuals, I'll drop it myself.



> Except he has combat speed, because he has the three things necessary for combat speed listed on that page. We've already proven that some multitude of times. Also, if you want to go by low-end, then Aang gets fucked up by peak-humans as well



And I've shown how it does not necessarily lead to combat speed.  Arbitrarily dismissing something as "not combat speed" is a fallacy; coming up with logical reasons for why a person can have different speeds for different situations, which is what we actually see in the show, is not.



> If you don't like it, then leave. That's how the OBD operates. You don't have to believe it's true, but here it is held to be true, and you're not changing that because the general consensus for this thread is that the verse you intended to win would get stomped.



Further argumentum ad populum.  And I didn't intend for Team Avatar to win.



> It's not. Go fucking appeal to Mike, or Wombat, of Willy. They'll tell you the same. It doesn't matter anyway, not one of your avatar characters is taking Kon down without bloodbending.



Then they should change the OBD assumptions thread.  And at the very least Aang with the Avatar State could drop Conner into a chasm down to the earth's mantle.



> What in the fuck are you talking about? PIS isn't cohesive to the events of the episodes or the fights in question  PIS is stupidity induced when the plot finds it convenient.



And the difference is?  How has Wally having trouble with non-superpowered humans been convenient to the plot when it has happened?



> He doesn't need them to be consistent; as long as they're not outliers (which they're not, as Flash and Impules have higher showings and Wally is a speedster) then his best showings are regarded as his potential stats, which we use here in the OBD. Low-end feats are completely disregarded. Same goes for Aang and his crew, which is why they are not all complete shit.



They don't have to be consistent?  At this point I feel you're degrading to "I didn't like it; it didn't happen".



> Wally is a) fast enough to keep everyone safe before anyone on Team Avatar can attack, so simultaneously or not, no one on team YJ is getting hurt, b) too fast for Katara's perceptions--she won't even be able to _see_ someone running at mach 1, much less relativistic speeds, and c) fast enough to perceive time as nearly stopped when dealing with folks as slow as Team Avatar, so it won't matter if she does construct anything, because he'll already be out of the way.



If he keeps everyone safe "before anyone on Team Avatar can even attack", how would he even know what to keep them safe from in the first place?  What Cheshire did was essentially lay a trap without Wally knowing. If Katara can set a similar trap, it should work. Of course it likely wouldn't work if Katara did it in plain sight.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 18, 2013)




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## shade0180 (Mar 18, 2013)

The fuck this thread is still open....


----------



## Qinglong (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> He does quickly get lapped by Flash and Impulse several times over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Your repeated use of that fallacy is getting tiring really


----------



## Tacocat (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> He does quickly get lapped by Flash and Impulse several times over.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Do you not understand how fast the speed of light is? The fact that he got lapped several times over and not several quadrillion times over means that he's fast enough to blitz the everloving fuck out of anyone in Avatar.



> *Tactically?  I don't see why not.  *It's not like what we see from them is on the level of freaking Patton or Rommel.  Though YJ has the advantage of two more tactically-minded team members as opposed to one.


Then you know nothing about DC.



> Thanks for giving the reason why normal physics would not be in play for KF (though I recall hearing that Greg Weisman said Speed Force doesn't exist in animated Young Justice).  When has Kid Flash taken a hit from Superboy?


You could link that, but I'm not even sure that would stand. Speedsters get their powers from the speedforce, and some of them are actually the speedforce incarnate (such as Wally).

Oh, and Wally takes hits from enraged Conner in the Biyalian Desert.



> Sure, but it's not evidence of being relativistic; if Barry and Bart were speaking at relativistic speeds, the conversation would have been done within a second.
> 
> He can run stably because it's his superpower.  If the Speed Force protects his surrounding from his speed, it could also protect him from his surrounding.


Protecting him from his surroundings does nothing to help him put one foot in front of the other. That would be brain impulses, aka thought, aka reaction.



> That was the _point_.  You started supporting your argument with visuals first, and I brought up the other implications of putting stock in the visuals.  If you drop supporting your argument with visuals, I'll drop it myself.


That wasn't my point at all. My arguments are based on physics and OBD standard.



> And I've shown how it does not necessarily lead to combat speed.  Arbitrarily dismissing something as "not combat speed" is a fallacy; coming up with logical reasons for why a person can have different speeds for different situations, which is what we actually see in the show, is not.


You're right; arbitrarily dismissing something as "not combat speed" is a fallacy (which you've done). But showing low-end feats does nothing to affect the match because we use high-end feats.



> Further argumentum ad populum.  *And I didn't intend for Team Avatar to win.*


You really expect me to believe that? 



> Then they should change the OBD assumptions thread.  And at the very least Aang with the Avatar State could drop Conner into a chasm down to the earth's mantle.


If you have qualms with it, then take it up with the moderators. It's not my fault they're lazy 

Show me Aang manhandling someone on Conner's level and I'd agree 



> And the difference is?  How has Wally having trouble with non-superpowered humans been convenient to the plot when it has happened?


Uh, so that Wally doesn't fuck every one of the villains over? How is Thanos having trouble with human police officers when he can smack around guys like Thor?



> They don't have to be consistent?  At this point I feel you're degrading to "I didn't like it; it didn't happen".


A) Wally has two relativistic showings, and Bart has a casual MHS to sub-relativistic feat. No way is Wally slower than casual Bart. B) They don't have to be consistent. As long as it's not an outlier (which it's not) then Wally is relativistic.

This entire fucking speed debate is pointless, as he has a very solid, and very casual mach 1 feat in which he reacts consistently to mach 1 things. Mach 1 is enough to take out Aang.



> If he keeps everyone safe "before anyone on Team Avatar can even attack", how would he even know what to keep them safe from in the first place?  What Cheshire did was essentially lay a trap without Wally knowing. If Katara can set a similar trap, it should work. Of course it likely wouldn't work if Katara did it in plain sight.


Pardon my phrasing. Wally has the speed to keep YJ out of the way of any attack Team Avatar has. Even if they all attack at the same time, Wally is fast enough to run every single one of his teammates to safety before any of these attacks would connect.

What Cheshire did was give Wally a low-end feat. We don't use low-end feats, no matter how abundant they are.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

I'm going to drop (not concede) the whole Kid Flash discussion.  It's obvious that no one is changing their opinion on this, and it feels at this point we are just saying the same things to each other over and over.



SuperTacocat said:


> Oh, and Wally takes hits from enraged Conner in the Biyalian Desert.



He takes one backhanded hit from Superboy and is seen up shortly after not much worse for wear, true.  I will point out that Aang takes a similar hit from Azula's firebending in "Crossroads of Destiny".  And I noticed that KF trips over a small rock while running a few seconds afterward.



> You really expect me to believe that?



I think that Team Young Justice has a number of advantages that give them a strong chance of winning, including Kid Flash's speed; I just don't think Kid Flash's power allows for him to do the things that have been claimed.



> Show me Aang manhandling someone on Conner's level and I'd agree



He doesn't have to "manhandle" him.  He can open the chasm right under Conner's feet, or alternatively open a chasm, freeze Conner in a large block of ice to temporarily immobilize him, then move him in the block with waterbending and drop him in the chasm.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> [YOUTUBE]GOEbwy0031E[/YOUTUBE]



And the point of posting something from an entirely different show and continuity is...?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> And the point of posting something from an entirely different show and continuity is...?



"I just don't think Kid Flash's power allows for him to do the things that have been claimed."


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> "I just don't think Kid Flash's power allows for him to do the things that have been claimed."



Young Justice's Kid Flash, if that wasn't already obvious.


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## sonic546 (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> Young Justice's Kid Flash, if that wasn't already obvious.



Ignoring, of course, the fact that TT Kid Flash uses the same powers as YJ Kid Flash.  

The fact that you honestly think that Avatarverse stands a snowball's chance in hell here, regardless of the massive amounts of evidence to the contrary, is nothing short of a mockery of rational thought.


----------



## Saitomaru (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> I'm going to drop (not concede) the whole Kid Flash discussion.  It's obvious that no one is changing their opinion on this, and it feels at this point we are just saying the same things to each other over and over.



Concession Accepted.



> He takes one backhanded hit from Superboy and is seen up shortly after not much worse for wear, true.  I will point out that Aang takes a similar hit from Azula's firebending in "Crossroads of Destiny".  And I noticed that KF trips over a small rock while running a few seconds afterward.



Superboy=Azula?



> I think that Team Young Justice has a number of advantages that give them a strong chance of winning, including Kid Flash's speed; I just don't think Kid Flash's power allows for him to do the things that have been claimed.



KF blitzes, gg.



> He doesn't have to "manhandle" him.  He can open the chasm right under Conner's feet, or alternatively open a chasm, freeze Conner in a large block of ice to temporarily immobilize him, then move him in the block with waterbending and drop him in the chasm.



Before or after he get's blitzed by KF? Oh wait, dumb question. Aang isn't fast enough to react to KF.


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## Tacocat (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> I'm going to drop (not concede) the whole Kid Flash discussion.  It's obvious that no one is changing their opinion on this, and it feels at this point we are just saying the same things to each other over and over.


So you want to take Kid Flash out of the match? Because he solos.



> He takes one backhanded hit from Superboy and is seen up shortly after not much worse for wear, true.  I will point out that Aang takes a similar hit from Azula's firebending in "Crossroads of Destiny".  And I noticed that KF trips over a small rock while running a few seconds afterward.


Proof that Azula and Conner are comparable when Conner can casually decimate tanks? 



> I think that Team Young Justice has a number of advantages that give them a strong chance of winning, including Kid Flash's speed; I just don't think Kid Flash's power allows for him to do the things that have been claimed.


What Ranger posted and sonic said  Note that YJ Wally actually has better speed feats than TT Wally 



> He doesn't have to "manhandle" him.  He can open the chasm right under Conner's feet, or alternatively open a chasm, freeze Conner in a large block of ice to temporarily immobilize him, then move him in the block with waterbending and drop him in the chasm.


And MM can't TK him out? Not that Conner doesn't have sufficient reactions and physical ability to avoid that.

Also, please note that Wally does not need physical strength to take these guys down in a blitz. He simply grabs one of Artemis's arrows and slits all their throats.


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## sonic546 (Mar 18, 2013)

Wait, did the OP seriously claim Azula was comparable to fucking Superboy?

This guy _can't_ be that stupid.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> Superboy=Azula?



The hit that Aang takes from Azula seems roughly the same as the hit KF took from Superboy.

[YOUTUBE]vMjJkkePgXA[/YOUTUBE]


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## sonic546 (Mar 18, 2013)

That...

That isn't even remotely comparable to Superboy's showings.

At all.


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## Tacocat (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman said:


> The hit that Aang takes from Azula seems roughly the same as the hit KF took from Superboy.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]vMjJkkePgXA[/YOUTUBE]



Based on...conjecture


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

sonic546 said:


> That...
> 
> That isn't even remotely comparable to Superboy's showings.
> 
> At all.



It's not comparable to Superboy's best showings, no, but it is comparable to Superboy just backhanding KF, which resulted in KF getting tossed a smaller distance and without the crater on impact.

Also:



SuperTacocat said:


> So you want to take Kid Flash out of the match? Because he solos.



No, I'm not taking him out.



> And MM can't TK him out? Not that Conner doesn't have sufficient reactions and physical ability to avoid that.



It was in reference to the idea that none of the Avatar characters could take out Conner alone.  We had an Aang vs Superboy thread a while back and the conclusion was that Aang would win, if general consensus is worth anything.  MM TKing Conner out of the chasm could work, though it would be much harder if Aang closed up the chasm first.


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## sonic546 (Mar 18, 2013)

Oh now I remember the OP.

You're the one responsible for this little .

EDIT: 





Oman said:


> It's not comparable to Superboy's best showings, no, but it is comparable to Superboy just backhanding KF, which resulted in KF getting tossed a smaller distance and without the crater on impact.



And you're basing that on, what, exactly?


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

sonic546 said:


> And you're basing that on, what, exactly?



The episode that SuperTacocat referred to, "Bereft", where Kid Flash takes a single backhand hit from Superboy with the effect I described.  The point of the comparison is not to say that Aang's body can withstand full punches from Superboy, but that Aang has a similar durability feat as that single durability feat for KF.


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## sonic546 (Mar 18, 2013)

Durability feats don't work that way.  Like TacoCat said, you're just basing that on conjecture, nothing more.


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## kaiyokoon (Mar 18, 2013)

How has this not been locked yet?  It's entertaining to see Oman's MvC-esque arguments, but at a certain point there is no longer enough head-shaking in the world to express the level of disappointment at the embarrassing wank and illogical nonsense being displayed.


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## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

sonic546 said:


> Durability feats don't work that way.  Like TacoCat said, you're just basing that on conjecture, nothing more.



What part of the objective statement "KF getting tossed a smaller distance and without the crater on impact" is conjecture?


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 18, 2013)

sonic546 said:


> Oh now I remember the OP.
> 
> You're the one responsible for this little .





> I can assume she gets fried right off the bat right?


----------



## Expelsword (Mar 18, 2013)

Oman just can't handle that Avatar is a very low tier verse...
The DC verse is also a high tier, so, that's even worse.

Poetry!


----------



## Wan (Mar 18, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Oman just can't handle that Avatar is a very low tier verse...
> The DC verse is also a high tier, so, that's even worse.
> 
> Poetry!



In this thread I haven't really focused on talking up Avatar; if anything I'm downplaying Young Justice.  Just about any animated incarnation of the DC universe is several tiers below the comic universe, and the same is true of Young Justice (except possibly Doctor Fate, who held off a significant portion of the War World's assault).


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## Gunners (Mar 18, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Do you not understand how fast the speed of light is? The fact that he got lapped several times over and not several quadrillion times over means that he's fast enough to blitz the everloving fuck out of anyone in Avatar.



Have you seen Young Justice? Wally isn't fast enough to blitz the members of the team Avatar. His top speed is about 420km which required acceleration and tired him out. Toph, Aang and Katara ( Icing the surface) altering the battlefield would put a stop to him. 

In the first scenario the team would lose. Though they wouldn't be able to kill Superboy they could trap him under the Earth. 

In the second scenario the team could lose. I don't really know how mind altering would affect the Avatar.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Have you seen Young Justice? Wally isn't fast enough to blitz the members of the team Avatar. His top speed is about 420km which required acceleration and tired him out. Toph, Aang and Katara ( Icing the surface) altering the battlefield would put a stop to him.


Have _you_ seen Young Justice? We have relativistic speedsters. How in the hell is that not fast enough to blitz Avatar?

420km isn't a speed, by the way


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Have _you_ seen Young Justice? We have relativistic speedsters. How in the hell is that not fast enough to blitz Avatar?
> 
> 420km isn't a speed, by the way



We have one source placing Flash (not Kid Flash) in the area of relativistic, when he says that he can run "near lightspeed".  Virtually every actual speed feat we see from Flash, Impulse, and Kid Flash, are nowhere near that.  That seems to be more like an outlier statement.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Have _you_ seen Young Justice? We have relativistic speedsters. How in the hell is that not fast enough to blitz Avatar?
> 
> 420km isn't a speed, by the way


I meant 420km/h don't delay the conversation by being obtuse as that much was obvious. Anyway the show does have relativistic speedsters, Wally is not one of them. End of.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> We have one source placing Flash (not Kid Flash) in the area of relativistic, when he says that he can run "near lightspeed".  Virtually every actual speed feat we see from Flash, Impulse, and Kid Flash, are nowhere near that.  That seems to be more like an outlier statement.



Do you know what an outlier is? It's when someone superior to a character with, say, a massively hypersonic feat is never shown to be even close to that level. So if Conner were to have a massively faster than light feat and the Flashes were only relativistic, then yes, that'd be considered an outlier. But Flash and his boys are speedsters. They can't have outliers for speed.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> I meant 420km/h don't delay the conversation by being obtuse as that much was obvious. Anyway the show does have relativistic speedsters, Wally is not one of them. End of.


Wally is, in fact, one of them by being able to keep up with Flash and Impulse to some degree.

That said, he also has a mach 1 feat, which Aang can't handle, let alone the rest of the team. Sooooooo Wally's too fast either way.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Do you know what an outlier is? It's when someone superior to a character with, say, a massively hypersonic feat is never shown to be even close to that level. So if Conner were to have a massively faster than light feat and the Flashes were only relativistic, then yes, that'd be considered an outlier. But Flash and his boys are speedsters. They can't have outliers for speed.


Wally moving at 420km/h was the fastest he'd move throughout the series. If anything that is an outlier as he is usually slower.


SuperTacocat said:


> Wally is, in fact, one of them by being able to keep up with Flash and Impulse to some degree.
> 
> That said, he also has a mach 1 feat, which Aang can't handle, let alone the rest of the team. Sooooooo Wally's too fast either way.



Wally cannot keep up with the Flash, they slowed down for his sake. He could not follow their conversations or see what they're seeing.


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Do you know what an outlier is? It's when someone superior to a character with, say, a massively hypersonic feat is never shown to be even close to that level. So if Conner were to have a massively faster than light feat and the Flashes were only relativistic, then yes, that'd be considered an outlier. But Flash and his boys are speedsters. They can't have outliers for speed.



An outlier is a data point vastly outside the majority of data points.  Flash's statement that he can go "near lightspeed" is an outlier with respect to the actual feats demonstrated by Flash, Kid Flash, and Impulse.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Wally moving at 420km/h was the fastest he'd move throughout the series. If anything that is an outlier as he is usually slower.
> 
> 
> Wally cannot keep up with the Flash, they slowed down for his sake. He could not follow their conversations or see what they're seeing.



He could, however, keep from being lapped several quadrillion times while they were going near lightspeed. This is basis for relativistic speed 



Oman said:


> An outlier is a data point vastly outside the majority of data points.  Flash's statement that he can go "near lightspeed" is an outlier with respect to the actual feats demonstrated by Flash, Kid Flash, and Impulse.





Please don't tell me what you don't know.


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Please don't tell me what you don't know.




"3: a statistical observation that is markedly different in value from the others of the sample"

Stop overcomplicating things.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> He could, however, keep from being lapped several quadrillion times while they were going near lightspeed. This is basis for relativistic speed



Em we don't know how many times they lapped him.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> "3: a statistical observation that is markedly different in value from the others of the sample"
> 
> Stop overcomplicating things.


Uh, those are the OBD higher-ups. I'm not over-complicating shit. We have rules here.



Gunners said:


> Em we don't know how many times they lapped him.


Uh, did you watch Bloodlines and the last episode? You can see them each time they pass. The fact that Wally's even elected to participate in something like that is a bit of an indication, as well. I'm the obtuse one?


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Uh, those are the OBD higher-ups. I'm not over-complicating shit. We have rules here.



Some guys talking on a blog doesn't change the definition of a word.  And I'm not even seeing how the discussion on the blog contradicts what I said.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Uh, did you watch Bloodlines and the last episode? You can see them each time they pass. The fact that Wally's even elected to participate in something like that is a bit of an indication, as well. I'm the obtuse one?


Did you watch the episode? We didn't see how many times they surpassed him, we only saw them leave him in their dust before slowing down at the time of his demise. The fact that Wally decided to participate means little, they were just short of the amount needed so the minute amount of kinetic energy he provided tipped the scale. 

That being said I made a mistake regarding his maximum speed. It is just above the speed of sound ( not 420km a mile). Still short of being relativistic and still not enough to blitz team Avatar ( As the speed was attained with time and whilst moving in a straight line).


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> An outlier is a data point vastly outside the majority of data points.  Flash's statement that he can go "near lightspeed" is an outlier with respect to the actual feats demonstrated by Flash, Kid Flash, and Impulse.




[YOUTUBE]6p2A5yLvaSo[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]53OyPYa7SEI[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]b9qcUjG7PQg[/YOUTUBE]
What flash said is untrue considering who he is?
Really that unlikely?
You'd have to reach for the lowest in the bottom of the barrel to even say that.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> [YOUTUBE]6p2A5yLvaSo[/YOUTUBE]
> [YOUTUBE]53OyPYa7SEI[/YOUTUBE]
> [YOUTUBE]b9qcUjG7PQg[/YOUTUBE]
> What flash said is untrue considering who he is?
> ...



Why are you pulling material from different series?


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> What flash said is untrue considering who he is?
> Really that unlikely?
> You'd have to reach for the lowest in the bottom of the barrel to even say that.



It's an outlier within the animated Young Justice continuity.  Videos from other shows don't change that.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Why are you pulling material from different series?


 Why are there only avatar lovers defending the avatar side in a biased manner?
I'm showing consistency for flash it's a part of his character.
Most of his feats in those shows are low ends, does that mean his lightspeed and FTL speeds are outliers? No.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> Some guys talking on a blog doesn't change the definition of a word.  And I'm not even seeing how the discussion on the blog contradicts what I said.


We're not using outlier as the definition describes it. We use it as a euphemism to establish a rule we have in the OBD. The relativistic speeds we see Wally travel at are not outliers, they are considered high-end here. You're not arguing against Wally's feats, you're arguing against our rules. If you don't like them, that's fine, then just go over to the MvC. They'll probably concur with your reasoning and everyone's happy. But based on our rules here, Wally's best feats show that he is, indeed, relativistic, which is too much for Avatarverse. Don't like it, then go.



Gunners said:


> Did you watch the episode? We didn't see how many times they surpassed him, we only saw them leave him in their dust before slowing down at the time of his demise. The fact that Wally decided to participate means little, they were just short of the amount needed so the minute amount of kinetic energy he provided tipped the scale.



Actually, they're already going full-speed when he joins in. He wouldn't even be able to tell where they were  in their track if he weren't going close to their top speed. That, and if he were any slower, then the energy that he could generate would be absolutely minuscule. Wally's a scientific genius, he'd know that his running with them would be futile if he were only going mach 1, as you say he caps out at.


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Why are there only avatar lovers defending the avatar side in a biased manner?
> I'm showing consistency for flash it's a part of his character.
> Most of his feats in those shows are low ends, does that mean his lightspeed and FTL speeds are outliers? No.



I like Young Justice.  I wouldn't presume to speak for Gunners' preferences, but he is one of the top posters in the Young Justice threads over in the Konoha Theatre section.  I'm a fan of Avatar too, so what?  I wouldn't make and argue a thread involving something I know nothing about, nor would I make a thread involving something I have no interest in.

"Superspeed" is a part of Flash's character.  Just how that speed manifests depends on the specific source material; evidence from one animated series has no more bearing on another than the Bruce Timm DCAU has on the comics universe.  This is why we don't entertain the thought of Batman avoiding Darkseid's Omega Beams in comic discussions, even though he did just that in the DCAU. 



SuperTacocat said:


> We're not using outlier as the definition describes it. We use it as a euphemism to establish a rule we have in the OBD. The relativistic speeds we see Wally travel at are not outliers, they are considered high-end here. You're not arguing against Wally's feats, you're arguing against our rules. If you don't like them, that's fine, then just go over to the MvC. They'll probably concur with your reasoning and everyone's happy. But based on our rules here, Wally's best feats show that he is, indeed, relativistic, which is too much for Avatarverse. Don't like it, then go.



Rules?  All I'm seeing is you using an argumentum ad populum fallacy, ignoring facts in favor of the opinion of a bunch of other OBDers most of which are not in the sort of position to change OBD rules.  And I still don't even think that blog discussion supports what you are saying now.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 19, 2013)

The OBD rules are decided by OBDers... 

Not some stickyed thread that hasn't been touched in months/years because lolmods.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> Rules?  All I'm seeing is you using an argumentum ad populum fallacy, ignoring facts in favor of the opinion of a bunch of other OBDers most of which are not in the sort of position to change OBD rules.  And I still don't even think that blog discussion supports what you are saying now.



Yes, rules and regulations. Guidelines, as it were. This isn't a fallacy of any kind as you haven't presented any facts and we've presented many facts which, combined with our guidelines, indicate that Wally would solo the fuck out of this match.

The blog discussion indicates that your idea of an outlier for OBD oriented feats does not coincide with what we hold to be true here.

You're confusing your argument concerning outliers with evidence of some sort. The fact that you feel that Wally's feats are outliers does not make my argument fallacious, as here Wally's feats are not considered outliers.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Actually, they're already going full-speed when he joins in. He wouldn't even be able to tell where they were  in their track if he weren't going close to their top speed. That, and if he were any slower, then the energy that he could generate would be absolutely minuscule. Wally's a scientific genius, he'd know that his running with them would be futile if he were only going mach 1, as you say he caps out at.



They're obviously were not at full speed when he joined them otherwise they wouldn't overtake him unless you're suggesting he ( Wally) slowed down? Anyway the energy he generated would have been minuscule in comparison to Barry and Bart, I said as much in my previous post. It wasn't futile because the part he played was just enough to push it over the limit. To simplify things for you. 

?10,000,000 is the amount that needs to be raised. 

X comes in  with ?5,000,000. 
Y comes in with ?4,999,999.99

They are short of their goal. 

Now when Z comes in with 1p they will reach their target amount. That does not mean Z contributed is an amount that rivals X and Y. It just means there small contribution was vital. Wally is Z.


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Why are there only avatar lovers defending the avatar side in a biased manner?
> I'm showing consistency for flash it's a part of his character.
> Most of his feats in those shows are low ends, does that mean his lightspeed and FTL speeds are outliers? No.



Blub blub blub Avatar fan blub blub blub. You are providing meaningless material as for all intents and purposes they are different characters. Their feats do not carry over into Young Justice.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> They're obviously were not at full speed when he joined them otherwise they wouldn't overtake him unless you're suggesting he ( Wally) slowed down? Anyway the energy he generated would have been minuscule in comparison to Barry and Bart, I said as much in my previous post. It wasn't futile because the part he played was just enough to push it over the limit. To simplify things for you.
> 
> ?10,000,000 is the amount that needs to be raised.
> 
> ...



I don't think you understand kinetic energy at all. Wally's a fairly fit and muscular college student, correct? So I'll assume 80 kg for his mass. And you insist that he caps out at mach 1 (340m/s).

KE=.5mv^2
KE=.5(80)340^2
KE=4624000J

This equates to an infinitesimal fraction of a ton of TNT. Kon could have just punched the thing and added exponentially more kinetic energy. Now explain to me how Wally serves a purpose here while running at mach 1?


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Yes, rules and regulations. Guidelines, as it were. This isn't a fallacy of any kind as you haven't presented any facts and we've presented many facts which, combined with our guidelines, indicate that Wally would solo the fuck out of this match.
> 
> The blog discussion indicates that your idea of an outlier for OBD oriented feats does not coincide with what we hold to be true here.
> 
> You're confusing your argument concerning outliers with evidence of some sort. The fact that you feel that Wally's feats are outliers does not make my argument fallacious, as here Wally's feats are not considered outliers.



And what gives the people in the blog discussion the right to lay down such guidelines?  Popularity?  For all your talk about MVC it doesn't seem like your approach is any more sound: mob rule.  Just a particularly self-assured type of mob.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> And what gives the people in the blog discussion the right to lay down such guidelines?  Popularity?  For all your talk about MVC it doesn't seem like your approach is any more sound: mob rule.  Just a particularly self-assured type of mob.


Then who should we get guidelines from? The OBD gods? Those are OBD regulars. They decide how things are run around here.

And your vote takes precedence over that of the guys who have been running this place since day 1?


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Then who should we get guidelines from? The OBD gods? Those are OBD regulars. They decide how things are run around here.
> 
> And your vote takes precedence over that of the guys who have been running this place since day 1?



Section mods, the guys who actually have authority to create, pin, and modify rule threads and then to lock threads or ban members for violating rules.  "OBD regulars" never "ran this place" to begin with, they just participated.  I couldn't really care less if the definition some other members use for something is simply different than mine; what matters is which definition actually works when analyzed.  Other members simply disagreeing with my argument is not disproof of my argument.  If you want to get into _why_ they disagree, I'm open to discussion.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> I don't think you understand kinetic energy at all. Wally's a fairly fit and muscular college student, correct? So I'll assume 80 kg for his mass. And you insist that he caps out at mach 1 (340m/s).
> 
> KE=.5mv^2
> KE=.5(80)340^2
> ...



Conner punching and a ton of TNT would not generate a speed trail to siphon off the energy. Putting that to the side they didn't have TNT at their disposal and Conner arrived to the scene after Kid Flash.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> Blub blub blub Avatar fan blub blub blub. You are providing meaningless material as for all intents and purposes they are different characters. Their feats do not carry over into Young Justice.


How they are treated carries over.
It's not an outlier for flash.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> How they are treated carries over.
> It's not an outlier for flash.


You are not making any sense. 

1) How they are treated does not carry over. For all intents and purposes they are different characters with a different approach/limitations to their abilities. 

2) What do you think is being referred to as an outlier? There is none because the series has been consistent with having him just about exceed the speed of sound when really pushing himself.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> Section mods, the guys who actually have authority to create, pin, and modify rule threads and then to lock threads or ban members for violating rules.  "OBD regulars" never "ran this place" to begin with, they just participated.  I couldn't really care less if the definition some other members use for something is simply different than mine; what matters is which definition actually works when analyzed.  Other members simply disagreeing with my argument is not disproof of my argument.  If you want to get into _why_ they disagree, I'm open to discussion.


Okay, then go ask the mods. They'd be locking every other thread if they disagreed.

And the other members disagree because there's a thing we like to call lolfiction. We have instances of Superman getting fucked up by trains, or Thanos getting arrested, or Goku struggling to life 40 tons. These low-ends don't show the character's true potential. If we observed these low-ends and called everything above an outlier, then we wouldn't get very far in debates, now would we? There would be no need to establish tropes such as PIS and CIS if we did take the low-end for every single character, because that'd leave everyone and his mother at peak-human, which includes Avatar 



Gunners said:


> Conner punching and a ton of TNT would not generate a speed trail to siphon off the energy. Putting that to the side they didn't have TNT at their disposal and Conner arrived to the scene after Kid Flash.


They were creating speed trails to siphon energy, true, but my point is that Conner's single punch packs more energy than Wally running at mach 1 would, and what they needed was kinetic energy on a massive scale. One hundredth of a ton of TNT would have made no difference when the other guys had to run at relativistic speeds, generating megatons of energy each.

Tons of TNT equivalent, not physical TNT. TNT equivalent is a unit of measure for energy, same as joules. You know, how we throw around stuff like kilotons, megatons, gigatons, and the like?


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## Wan (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> You are not making any sense.
> 
> 1) How they are treated does not carry over. For all intents and purposes they are different characters with a different approach/limitations to their abilities.
> 
> 2) What do you think is being referred to as an outlier? There is none because the series has been consistent with having him just about exceed the speed of sound when really pushing himself.



He's talking about how I was categorizing Flash's statement that he could go at "near lightspeed" as an outlier in the context of Young Justice.  At least, it would be an outlier if Kid Flash was anywhere near Flash's speed, as they have been arguing.



SuperTacocat said:


> Okay, then go ask the mods. They'd be locking every other thread if they disagreed.
> 
> And the other members disagree because there's a thing we like to call lolfiction. We have instances of Superman getting fucked up by trains, or Thanos getting arrested, or Goku struggling to life 40 tons. These low-ends don't show the character's true potential. If we observed these low-ends and called everything above an outlier, then we wouldn't get very far in debates, now would we? There would be no need to establish tropes such as PIS and CIS if we did take the low-end for every single character, because that'd leave everyone and his mother at peak-human, which includes Avatar



In those cases I would call things like Thanos getting arrested outliers themselves.  Outliers can be on the low end or the high end.  PIS and CIS are explanations for why things are outliers.


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

> No, they were generating energy. Everything generates energy. Conner punching generates energy.
> 
> Tons of TNT equivalent, not physical TNT. TNT equivalent is a unit of measure for energy, same as joules. You know, how we throw around stuff like kilotons, megatons, gigatons, and the like?


They were generating a speed trail in the opposite direction of the vortex. The speedtrail in the opposite direction was being used to siphon off the destructive energy. 

Would Conner punching or an explosion be able to generate a speed trail in the opposite direction? The answer is no. 

If you believe that they could. Well it sucks for Wally that they didn't have explosives of Conner's mighty fist.


			
				Oman said:
			
		

> He's talking about how I was categorizing Flash's statement that he could go at "near lightspeed" would be an outlier in the context of Young Justice. At least, it would be an outlier if Kid Flash was anywhere near Flash's speed, as they have been arguing.


Did Wally ever make that claim? That's why I don't understand the foundation of their arguments, the writers have been consistent with Wally being slow. He's never been portrayed as being in the same league as Bart and Barry. His character statements indicate that he hangs in the mach 1 region.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> They were generating a speed trail in the opposite direction of the vortex. The speedtrail in the opposite direction was being used to siphon off the destructive energy.
> 
> Would Conner punching or an explosion be able to generate a speed trail in the opposite direction? The answer is no.
> 
> ...



Check my edit, I spoke out of turn (but yes, Conner's fist moving would generate more energy than Wally's kinetic energy).

And how do you not get that Wally would never even be able to see Flash or Impulse if he weren't at least comparable? You do realize that they both eventually slowed down to match his speed, correct? If all three of them were moving at mach 1, the result would be .003 tons of TNT equivalent in kinetic energy. You think an energy yield not even sufficient to bust a large-building would be able to match a lifewiping threat? Barry said himself that even at their full speed, they probably wouldn't be able to get it done, and a man of Barry's stature moving at relativistic speeds results in an energy yield sufficient to destroy a mountain.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> In those cases I would call things like Thanos getting arrested outliers themselves.  Outliers can be on the low end or the high end.  PIS and CIS are explanations for why things are outliers.


Soooo, you're dictating what OBD terms mean just because that's what you take them for, even if you're not the one that defined them?


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## Gunners (Mar 19, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Check my edit, I spoke out of turn (but yes, Conner's fist moving would generate more energy than Wally's kinetic energy).
> 
> And how do you not get that Wally would never even be able to see Flash or Impulse if he weren't at least comparable? You do realize that they both eventually slowed down to match his speed, correct? If all three of them were moving at mach 1, the result would be .003 tons of TNT equivalent in kinetic energy. You think an energy yield not even sufficient to bust a building would be able to match a lifewiping threat?



When they ( Bart and Barry) accelerated to their maximum Wally could not see them or at the very least there is no proof that he could see them. He saw Barry and Bart close to his death but that's after they slowed down in an attempt to save his life.


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## Tacocat (Mar 19, 2013)

Gunners said:


> When they ( Bart and Barry) accelerated to their maximum Wally could not see them or at the very least there is no proof that he could see them. *He saw Barry and Bart close to his death but that's after they slowed down in an attempt to save his life.*



The first part would be a burden of proof on you, but I'll ignore that one.

In response to the bolded: As I said, Bart and Barry slowing down results in a yield of .003 tons of TNT equivalent. Before Wally joins, Barry himself says that they can't slow down at all because even at their top speed he doesn't know if they could generate enough energy.

Now, a man running at relativistic speeds generates a generous yield of about 10 megatons. Add Bart in, and we get 20 megatons. However, Barry actually suggests they slow down after Wally joins in. This can only mean that Wally adds enough energy that both Barry and his grandson are allowed to slow down to accommodate Wally without blowing the whole mission. Ergo, Wally could not conceivably only travel at mach 1, for if they all traveled at mach 1, the yield would be .003 tons, not 20 megatons.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> Section mods, the guys who actually have authority to create, pin, and modify rule threads and then to lock threads or ban members for violating rules.  "OBD regulars" never "ran this place" to begin with, they just participated.  I couldn't really care less if the definition some other members use for something is simply different than mine; what matters is which definition actually works when analyzed.  Other members simply disagreeing with my argument is not disproof of my argument.  If you want to get into _why_ they disagree, I'm open to discussion.



Nope.

OBD as a section follows the majority in most respects.

That's how this quasi-democratic-dictatorship works.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 19, 2013)

Oman said:


> He's talking about how I was categorizing Flash's statement that he could go at "near lightspeed" would be an outlier in the context of Young Justice.  At least, it would be an outlier if Kid Flash was anywhere near Flash's speed, as they have been arguing.



It's not an outlier for flash if kid flash kept up.
Speed feats are pretty damn strait forward if a person can run faster without abnormal one time outside assistance(Meaning not the speed force or things of that nature which consistently help) it's their high end and everything is a lower end of the character holding back. 

Just because flash mostly runs at safe speeds doesn't mean he can't do insane things if he has been shown doing so in that verse.

The only flash I know of that may not be shown to be relativistic at least is the live action one.
[YOUTUBE]rlZlufv0mPY[/YOUTUBE]
  You would have to have a lot against the flash in forms of proof that he isn't when he's been shown to do so in said verse and consistently overall in every incarnation.


  It's the same thing with Superman we don't call a feat of him bench pressing the weight of the earth for 5 days with ease an outlier just because it's a new verse and he only displays that strength once(which I'm not even sure of that anymore).
We call it a upper level feat a show of that character's true strength.
Sure there are many special cases but this isn't one of them.

  Outliers are more applicable to characters beating another character they shouldn't (spiderman beating Galactus) or something that goes against how the character is presented overall( Flash being physically stronger than superman for example).

  Remember I just said Flash is pretty well presented no matter what verse to be a speedster that holds back.
He has the feats to blitz team avatar several 100 times over bloodlusted.
If Kid flash keeps up with him somewhat when its of that many orders of magnitude then that means he ALSO has the speed to blitz team avatar.

  And you don't want that so you argue it being an outlier.
Which I wouldn't blame you for but this is one of the most straight forward things you could ever deal with here in the OBD.
Then there is-


SuperTacocat said:


> If all three of them were moving at mach 1, the result would be .003 tons of TNT equivalent in kinetic energy. You think an energy yield not even sufficient to bust a large-building would be able to match a lifewiping threat? Barry said himself that even at their full speed, they probably wouldn't be able to get it done, and a man of Barry's stature moving at relativistic speeds results in an energy yield sufficient to destroy a mountain.



He already said it.^


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