# Gokage vs Hashirama



## Gondoteph (Nov 24, 2013)

*-Location :* Desert.

*-Starting distance :* 70 meters.

*-Knowledge :* Full.

*-State of mind :* In-Character.

*-Restrcitions :* None.

*-Conditions :* Naruto suddenly appeared in the battlefield and gave the Gokage Chakra Cloaks- Gaara is Shukaku's Jin and is a "Perfect Jin".


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## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 24, 2013)

hashirama obliterates them with absolutely no effort.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 24, 2013)

Really? 

Even with chakra cloaks.... Hashirama still fodderstomps without a semblance of difficulty


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## Trojan (Nov 24, 2013)

Hashi will win with his Buddha, the only way they can win is if Hashi was so arrogant or stupid in the fight
like madara when he lost half of his body before the PS, but I don't see that happening here. 

So, yeah, Hashi destroy them.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 24, 2013)

Hashirama gets jintoned away.

Madara only survived so long because of his edo regeneration.


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## Bonly (Nov 24, 2013)

Hashi should still win more times then not.He has his own version of Byakugo to help heal from their attacks and Mokuton on the scale to fight 100 percent Kurama upon which both get boosted drastically by SM. Hell if Hashi is going for the kill then all he has to do is use Mokuton: Kajukai Kōrin like Madara did and then he can easily finish them off instead of just standing around like Madara did. Unless A is able to outright blitz Hashi and cut off Hashi head, I don't see the Gokage winning more times then not.


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## Jagger (Nov 24, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Hashirama gets jintoned away.
> 
> Madara only survived so long because of his edo regeneration.


Madara was hit by Jinton the first time because he let himself being hit to break down the Gokage's morale.

The second time was because he was too arrogant and let his clones play with his opponents instead of ending the fight much earlier.

Hashirama isn't going to make the same mistakes.


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## Mercurial (Nov 24, 2013)

Hashirama casually steamrolls them.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Nov 24, 2013)

Even Elia said Hashirama wins.

I'd say anyone as strong or stronger than mobile Nagato should be able to beat the Gokage on their own.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 24, 2013)

Why make a match to push hashirama like this when you know the buddha will come out when he gets serious. Onoki with a kurama shroud is the only one packing enough DC to try and stop that thing and seeing that thing make mountains look small it is not going before catch hundreds of punches from all sides.

Kurama's cloak defenses cannot compare to the armor of perfect susanoo so they basically have no defense.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Madara was hit by Jinton the first time because he let himself being hit to break down the Gokage's morale.
> 
> The second time was because he was too arrogant and let his clones play with his opponents instead of ending the fight much earlier.
> 
> Hashirama isn't going to make the same mistakes.



 what a weak excuses. He got hit because he could not do anything about that and his Zombie regeneration and infinite Chakra where only things that where keeping him from getting stomped by Kages.

Just noticed that onoki gets kurama shroud in bonus. He literally oneshots 10 hashiramas.

With Jintons AOE and Destructive capabilities there is NOTHING Hashirama can do to block it or dodge it.


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## Ersa (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> what a weak excuses. He got hit because he could not do anything about that and his Zombie regeneration and infinite Chakra where only things that where keeping him from getting stomped by Kages.
> 
> With Jintons AOE and Destructive capabilities there is NOTHING Hashirama can do to block it or dodge it.




1

He did this without Perfect Susanoo.

Hashirama arguably plasters the Gokage across the map without Sage Mode. He was dealing with 100% Kyuubi and EMS Madara until the fusion. 

All the cloaks do here is force Hashirama to use SM. The Buddha can nuke the Gokage off the map in seconds. He has his own version of Byakogou to heal damage. The Gokage are literally Genin before him.


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 25, 2013)

Super BD KN0 Tsunade-powered cube Jinton disintegrates Hashirama to dust.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> this,
> 
> He did this without Perfect Susanoo.



Oh really he did that omfg how freaking powerful he is thanks for showing me that. 

*Or maybe *he did that because they where tired even before their fight with Madara and during their fight with him they used up leftovers of what they had ? no ?

Fresh Onoki would oneshot Madara from the get go and seal him by himself *without any help*

Why am i even responding to someone with sharingan in the avatar ?


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## Ersa (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Oh really he did that omfg how freaking powerful he is thanks for showing me that.
> 
> *Or maybe *he did that because they where tired even before their fight with Madara and during their fight with him they used up leftovers of what they had ? no ?
> 
> ...




Well I'm done here, if you truly believe Onoki could beat Madara one on one then go right ahead.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Well I'm done here, if you truly believe Onoki could beat Madara one on one then go right ahead.



Oh responding with picture because Madara is pathetic relax her is something you would love to look at for few hours.


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## Ersa (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Oh responding with picture because Madara is pathetic relax her is something you would love to loot at for few hours.


EMS Madara thrashed Muu and Onoki without a single scratch and without Perfect Susanoo.

Now you're telling me Onoki is taking a vastly stronger Madara with Rinnegan, Mokuton and Perfect Susanoo? And Preta render Jinton useless.


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## Bonly (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Fresh Onoki would oneshot Madara from the get go and seal him by himself *without any help*



 Could you explain to me why a fresh Onoki can one shot and beat Edo Madara by himself because quite honestly I don't see it?


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## Chad (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Oh responding with picture because Madara is pathetic relax her is something you would love to loot at for few hours.



My hater/downplayer detector is pointing towards you.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> EMS Madara thrashed Muu and Onoki without a single scratch and without Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> Now you're telling me Onoki is taking a vastly stronger Madara with Rinnegan, Mokuton and Perfect Susanoo? And Preta render Jinton useless.



It happened off panel, and you cant prove that Jinton was discovered at that time Muu was not even a Kage and Onoki was a child very strong argument for Maddona indeed.

Rock Lee stomped Sasuke in chuunin exams end he did not even use gates or take of weights by your logic he can do that to sasuke now too. Dat rock lee.



Bonly said:


> Could you explain to me why a fresh Onoki can one shot and beat Edo Madara by himself because quite honestly I don't see it?


By the point Madara was summoned by Muu, Onoki spend so much of his chakra that he was unable to use Jinton he was spamming Jinton cubes using 4 clones just to stop Muu from killing him.

When Madara was summoned Onoki was unable to use jinton and he was reduced to helping others like speeding up Raikage, Headbutting meteors etc.

He was unable to spam Jinton, but he was able to fire it ( with help of tsunade) several times with big intervals and each time he fired Jinton he *killed* Madara well not really killed Madara was edo Zombie, but you get the point with Jinton spam Madara would get overwhelmed and sealed in first minutes of their fight



Astral said:


> My hater/downplayer detector is pointing towards you.



Downplayer ? I posted my thought and he replied with picture


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## Bonly (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> By the point Madara was summoned by Muu, Onoki spend so much of his chakra that he was unable to use Jinton he was spamming Jinton cubes using 4 clones just to stop Muu from killing him.
> 
> When Madara was summoned Onoki was unable to use jinton and he was reduced to helping others like speeding up Raikage, Headbutting meteors etc.
> 
> He was unable to spam Jinton, but he was able to fire it ( with help of tsunade) several times with big intervals and each time he fired Jinton he *killed* Madara well not really killed Madara was edo Zombie, but you get the point with Jinton spam Madara would get overwhelmed and sealed in first minutes of their fight



So basically just Jinton spam to put down Madara, ok then. Well first off I'll correct you, every time(the three times on panel) Onoki fired off Jinton Madara did not die(and yes I know what you mean), Onoki fired a Jinton here and Madara absorbed it leaving only the other two times(on panel) where Onoki had help and Madara said that he let it happen. 

So can you tell me how Jinton spam is going to work when Madara can absorb it and Onoki will run out of chakra after a few minutes of firing out of Jinton?


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## Freechoice (Nov 25, 2013)




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## Nikushimi (Nov 25, 2013)

Hashirama wins in base form with very little difficulty.

Itachi solos.


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## Mercurial (Nov 25, 2013)

Please, Sacredpool, stop. Stahp, please... you are only losing reliability.


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## Puccio (Nov 25, 2013)

Madara got hit by Oonoki's super jinton, sure, but only his clothes were damaged. He wasn't, nor was he regenerating. So Oonoki doesn't solo Hashirama in any way.

Hashi wins low/mid diff.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> So can you tell me how Jinton spam is going to work when Madara can absorb it and Onoki will run out of chakra after a few minutes of firing out of Jinton?



Link removed

Madara lost his arm and his leg, and by the way his Rinnengan technique which is his only hope and not very effective either is irrelevant because Hashirama does not have Rinnegan.

Second spam would have ended Madara too bad Onoki had no chakra left.


Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama wins in base form with very little difficulty.
> 
> Itachi solos.



wtf is your signature  where did you get it


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

So what about when Madara humiliated Oonoki and Muu at the same time without revealing Perfect Susano'o?


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> So what about when Madara humiliated Oonoki and Muu at the same time without revealing Perfect Susano'o?



What about Lee one shotting Sasuke without taking off weights ?
Itachi oneshotting Kakakshi ?
Orochimaru making kakashi shit himself with presence alone ?

Muu used swords against madara, edo Muu had no swords because he changed his fighting style.
What proof do you have that young Muu already invented Jinton ? he was not even Kage then.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 25, 2013)

Hashirama stomps from the instant the match starts he could wrap them all up with wood , tsunade and raikage would get out but he could finish off the others before they make a move


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> What about Lee one shotting Sasuke without taking off weights ?
> Itachi oneshotting Kakakshi ?
> Orochimaru making kakashi shit himself with presence alone ?



What about them?



SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Muu used swords against madara, edo Muu had no swords because he changed his fighting style.
> What proof do you have that young Muu already invented Jinton ? he was not even Kage then.



This all seems very pedantic. I don't know what happened to Muu's swords, it's possible they were lost or destroyed like Sasori's puppet army.

I don't have proof that Muu had already developed Jinton, however it seems likely. He was definitely the Kage; he was training his successor and Madara went to him for the formal surrender of his village. Most people develop their inherited abilities early in their career as well, and it then becomes a cornerstone of their fighting style.

And that is why it doesn't matter whether or not Muu was capable of using Jinton. Look at how Oonoki responded to learning that Madara had been toying with them during that encounter, it left him completely shocked and dumbstruck. He would not have that response if Madara had beaten up two random Jounin.

No, that scene is an indicator of the gap that exists between Madara and the typical Kage. The Uchiha strolled into Iwa and obliterated the best it had to offer. When the current Tsuchikage realised that wasn't even the full extent of Madara's power, and Madara trivialised his actions on that day, Oonoki too realised how outmatched they were.


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## Azula (Nov 25, 2013)

flight + mega jinton


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> What about them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Using your logic Genin lee stomps current Sasuke


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## Sans (Nov 25, 2013)

If that's your response, you clearly didn't understand my logic.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm sorry but anyone who believes Hashirama will be capable of making seals while being under attack by the same Gokage that brought Uchiha Madara to release his most powerful weapon. Is well and truly lost. 

Hashirama wouldn't start the battle with 1000-Armed Buddah or Sage Mode and that would be his downfall. Besides even if he did, would the True Several Thousand Hands be any good to Hashirama while Onoki is on the field? While the Third Earth Shadow has jutsu like his Added-Weight Rock Technique and Jinton - the battle is his.

...whoever suggest Onoki get's a Chakra Shroud from Naruto just speed up the battle in the Gokage's favor.


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## trance (Nov 25, 2013)

Hashirama godstomps with zero difficulty. The chakra cloaks will make them more of a nuisance than a threat.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Hashirama godstomps with zero difficulty. The chakra cloaks will make them more of a nuisance than a threat.



Team Gai was a nuisance to Kisame, during that battle they ultimately allowed Gai to win the battle.
Hinata was a nuisance to Pein, same occurrence, her defeat ultimately won Naruto the battle.
The Ninja Alliance was a nuisance to the Juubi being controlled to Obito and Madara.
...the Gokage have the potential to defeat Hashirama and seal him. I just propose what is he going to do when this HAPPENS, cause here he wouldn't be able to release any defense, make seals or move. He will then be sealed and that marks his defeat.


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## Jagger (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> what a weak excuses. He got hit because he could not do anything about that and his Zombie regeneration and infinite Chakra where only things that where keeping him from getting stomped by Kages.


If anything, it's your argument that is weak. Madara didn't take the Kages seriously because he was a zombie, i nfact, would you even take them seriously if you were in Madara's place? 

Madara toyed with them all the time and he wasn't even serious. When he released one of his trump cards, the Gokage lost their morale except for Onoki and even then they got destroyed.



> Just noticed that onoki gets kurama shroud in bonus. He literally oneshots 10 hashiramas.


Hashirama destroys 10 Onokis. I think that's you meant. 



> With Jintons AOE and Destructive capabilities there is NOTHING Hashirama can do to block it or dodge it.




Hashirama is fast. I am sure he can dodge Jinton. In fact, what makes you think Onoki will start the fight with the same Jinton he used to destroy Madara's pollen flower or the same one he used to destroy the 25 Susano'O clones. It's not IC from him just like Kisame won't start a fight with Daikoudan or Nagato using CT at the start of a fight.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 25, 2013)

This is almost as ridiculous as Gokage vs Rikudo. They get stomped horribly.


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## Bringer (Nov 25, 2013)

*@Jagger*Actually only Mei and Gaara lost their moral[Gaara being debatable] 

Tsunade and Ei were ready to attack perfect susanoo.

Also honestly, if Madara didn't have regeneration, infinite chakra, mokuton, or rinnegan...

The Gokage would have won with extreme difficulty due to Perfect Susanoo.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 25, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm sorry but anyone who believes Hashirama will be capable of making seals while being under attack by the same Gokage that brought Uchiha Madara to release his most powerful weapon. Is well and truly lost.
> 
> Hashirama wouldn't start the battle with 1000-Armed Buddah or Sage Mode and that would be his downfall. Besides even if he did, would the True Several Thousand Hands be any good to Hashirama while Onoki is on the field? While the Third Earth Shadow has jutsu like his Added-Weight Rock Technique and Jinton - the battle is his.
> 
> ...whoever suggest Onoki get's a Chakra Shroud from Naruto just speed up the battle in the Gokage's favor.



Do you really believe madara was even trying during his fight with the gokage . He put in literally 0 effort into the fight. He was just going through the movements seeing what they were capable of. They were nothing to him. Madara used PS because he wanted to break their morale, their will to fight and have them give up. There were many ways he could've got out of the situation that made it seem he had to use PS like use wood, sasunoo or absorb it all with preta.

Hashirama stomps he can make instant forests, use wood clones, the wood he creates is extremely powerful and versatile. Hashirama is not being touched by the gokage it's a wrap


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## Veracity (Nov 25, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> I'm sorry but anyone who believes Hashirama will be capable of making seals while being under attack by the same Gokage that brought Uchiha Madara to release his most powerful weapon. Is well and truly lost.
> 
> Hashirama wouldn't start the battle with 1000-Armed Buddah or Sage Mode and that would be his downfall. Besides even if he did, would the True Several Thousand Hands be any good to Hashirama while Onoki is on the field? While the Third Earth Shadow has jutsu like his Added-Weight Rock Technique and Jinton - the battle is his.
> 
> ...whoever suggest Onoki get's a Chakra Shroud from Naruto just speed up the battle in the Gokage's favor.



Yeah no I'm sorry. Hashirama destroys them. Most people forget that PS = Wood Human, and Hashirmaa has the chakra to make several of them.  If PS, made the Kage shit bricks, to the point  where all if them bar Ay basically gave up, then a single Wood human will to.  And Hashirama can make at absolutely  atleast 3.

Also mix in the fact that Hashirama can instantly create a large scale forest( superior to Madara's which Naruto had to send a barrage of clones just to beat) then create 25 clones which are indistinguishable to everyone bar  Sharingan users, and proceed to completey outnumber the KAge. 

He has wood dragons that are stronger and larger then boss summons, he can freely manipulate all the wood in his forest and can create wood contructs anymore where freely. Wood contructs powerful enough to catch a damn PS swing which destroyed a mountain range. And if he were to catch them in a large scale Genjustu( atleast 10 times stronger then against Hiruzen) then Hashirana would destroy them.


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Jagger said:


> If anything, it's your argument that is weak. Madara didn't take the Kages seriously because he was a zombie, i nfact, would you even take them seriously if you were in Madara's place?



You post is making Madara upset 


never mind its just onoki ripping his limbs off


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## Bonly (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> block
> 
> Madara lost his arm and his leg, and by the way his Rinnengan technique which is his only hope and not very effective either is irrelevant because Hashirama does not have Rinnegan.
> 
> Second spam would have ended Madara too bad Onoki had no chakra left.



You do you realize Onoki was only able to do that with help right? You do also realize that you said Onoki could solo Madara meaning without help right? So why bring up what Onoki did with help and say how spam after that attack could've put Madara down when I'm asking you how Onoki without help is putting down Madara via Jinton spam?


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## J★J♥ (Nov 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> You do you realize Onoki was only able to do that with help right? You do also realize that you said Onoki could solo Madara meaning without help right? So why bring up what Onoki did with help and say how spam after that attack could've put Madara down when I'm asking you how Onoki without help is putting down Madara via Jinton spam?



By help you mean Tsunade giving him chakra ?


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## Bonly (Nov 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> By help you mean Tsunade giving him chakra ?



I was more so referring to the handjob she gave him off screen but what you mentioned also works.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

Did someone just put Hashirama on the same plateau as the Rikudo Sennin? 


Lord Aizen said:


> Do you really believe madara was even trying during his fight with the gokage . He put in literally 0 effort into the fight.


Madara versus the Gokage was Madara acting in character and almost getting sealed. Nothing more nothing less, so please do not add your own speculation into it. There is literally no difference to Madara fighting Hashirama during the flashback we had seen to him fight Naruto, Kakashi and Gai and his first fight presented within the Manga; Uchiha Madara versus the Gokage.

So yes to all willing to acknowledge this post, it is clear to me that the Uchiha was trying to win in his fight against the Gokage. You cannot tell me, by activating his personal Susanoo to then multiplying it's presence on the battlefield leads anyone to believe he was putting in 0% into that fight. That is highly ludicrous and your credibility to hold an argument in my eyes is simply plummeting through the floor.



> He was just going through the movements seeing what they were capable of. They were nothing to him.


Madara had the power and skill to solo them but he didn't as that isn't in his character. In comparison Onoki had the power and skill to solo him, cast your mind back to when Naruto used his Rasenshuriken. If that was a Jinton it would have been game over. What you're saying happened didn't happen, Madara was fighting to win ...he had his qualms with the groups, he had his superiority and lots of admiration but it does not mean he wasn't trying to defeat them.



> Madara used PS because he wanted to break their morale, their will to fight and have them give up. There were many ways he could've got out of the situation that made it seem he had to use PS like use wood, sasunoo or absorb it all with preta.


He used Perfect Susanoo because he had no other choice. If you can present me with a credible situation where Madara would have escaped being sealed other than his activation of his Susanoo then I shall believe you. All in all this initial discussion is Hashirama versus the Gokage and last time we looked at the First Hokage's arsenal he had no defense for Jinton like Madara. On paper when comparing abilities Hashirama in terms of all out battle, Madara is the stronger if not more versatile ninja effortlessly leaving his rival Hashirama in his wake.



> Hashirama stomps he can make instant forests, use wood clones, the wood he creates is extremely powerful and versatile. Hashirama is not being touched by the gokage it's a wrap


It isn't a wrap because if I remember correctly Madara can create wood clones, forests and implemented them in his attack on the five Kage - they were successfully overcame by the Gokage. Therefore I cannot see why you can't see why the Gokage cannot do the same here. Before you call this a wrap can you explain to me, how Hashirama would stop Onoki literally stopping his forest or casting Jinton vanquishing it away, or how would the Senju leader would stop Mei's Boil or Lava Release. He can jump about like a rabbit all he likes but going against a team of this level and these numbers he is destined to fail where Madara only just succeeded. 





Likes boss said:


> Yeah no I'm sorry.



You're not sorry don't lie to me.



> Hashirama destroys them.


You're meant to give evidence of why you believe this is possible. I can tell just by skimming your post that there is none. Either way now I shall look at it in detail, share with you my thoughts and present my counterarguments.



> Most people forget that PS = Wood Human


No it does not. You seem to forget that every situation is different, in this context the Perfect Susanoo does not equate to the True Several Thousand Hands. The Gokage could stop the Wood Human without too much analysis given and most likely could stop the Perfect Susanoo too.



> and Hashirmaa has the chakra to make several of them.  If PS, made the Kage shit bricks, to the point  where all if them bar Ay basically gave up, then a single Wood human will to.  And Hashirama can make at absolutely  atleast 3.


Lots of folk give up in this Manga, those are the folk that usually win. Onoki could and most likely would have Jinton'd it away or slowed it down. Acid and Lava from Mei would have destroyed it too seeing as it did the same to Sasuke's Susanoo.

We saw just before the Perfect Susanoo was summoned the Gokage had Madara in a lock. A lock Hashirama would not be able to escape if we look at his abilities. That lock could and most likley would have been replicated again, these are 5 tactical geniuses against 1. The fight is in their favor not Hashirama's.



> Also mix in the fact that Hashirama can instantly create a large scale forest( superior to Madara's which Naruto had to send a barrage of clones just to beat) then create 25 clones which are indistinguishable to everyone bar  Sharingan users, and proceed to completey outnumber the KAge.


Ultra Added Weight Rock + Jinton + Boil Release + Lava Release = GG Hashirama.



> He has wood dragons that are stronger and larger then boss summons, he can freely manipulate all the wood in his forest and can create wood contructs anymore where freely. Wood contructs powerful enough to catch a damn PS swing which destroyed a mountain range. And if he were to catch them in a large scale Genjustu( atleast 10 times stronger then against Hiruzen) then Hashirana would destroy them.


This means nothing to someone who can vaporize the forest with her breath. Nothing to the Kage that can instantly destroy all molecules he chooses, the fact he and the other Kage has a healer and a tank to shield and heal means absolutely nothing. Heck I haven't even started talking about Gaara here. If memory serves correct during his battle with Kimimaro he can break down the earth to create sand at the cost of Chakra - which means bye bye Hashirama's forest on another level. 

Like I said before with the Chakra Cloaks that is a manifold of increased strength, speed and protection. This is overkill; once more the legendary Hashirama dies in battle.


...add Madara to this fight and I shall then accept their defeat.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> blindside
> 
> He did this without Perfect Susanoo.
> 
> ...



Madara did that *WITH* PS.


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## Chad (Nov 25, 2013)

I'm pretty sure the damage on the Kages would be much more severe if Madara used PS.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2013)

Astral said:


> I'm pretty sure the damage on the Kages would be much more severe if Madara used PS.




In that case what's your explanation for what madara said?


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 25, 2013)

Elia where do you get those viz translations from...or do you just buy them in volumes.

Lots of shit is said differently and i feel like i am missing out.


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## Trojan (Nov 25, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Elia where do you get those viz translations from...or do you just buy them in volumes.
> 
> Lots of shit is said differently and i feel like i am missing out.



- I used to buy them in volumes, but now I have a membership with Viz so I have the Digital copy.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 25, 2013)

Onoki gives them all the ability to fly.

All Hashi can do from that point is be on the defensive against Jinton.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 25, 2013)

Hashirama actually is a bit of a disadvantaged against the Gokage despite his superior power compared to Edo Madara. Edo Madara had his EMS powers, his Rinnegan abilities, AND Mokuton. The Gokage were able to counter Mokuton via Jinton and Yoton. And this is _without_ Naruto's Version 1 Cloak powering them up. Hashirama also lacks the instant defense that Madara had: Susano'o so he'd be at a disadvantage facing A or Tsunade in a taijutsu battle. With enhanced Jinton and Yoton, his Mokuton is also far less effective.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 25, 2013)

The only reason Madz survived that long without PS was because of Preta Path.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

I just can't see to understand how people think Madara was playing with people smarter than himself. He is nothing more than a child with great and wondrous powers.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 25, 2013)

The Gokage don't make it past the combination of Kokuangyo and Mokuton: Kajukai Kourin.

If the group can't see what is happening, they won't be able to make a proper defense. In my opinion, Sharingan is needed to cancel the illusion, and Gaara/Mei are the only combatants that arguably detect something.

Shukaku Gaara is fodderized by Mokuryuu, while Hashirama blindsides the other Kage with Moku Bunshin.


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## Veracity (Nov 25, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Did someone just put Hashirama on the same plateau as the Rikudo Sennin?
> Madara versus the Gokage was Madara acting in character and almost getting sealed. Nothing more nothing less, so please do not add your own speculation into it. There is literally no difference to Madara fighting Hashirama during the flashback we had seen to him fight Naruto, Kakashi and Gai and his first fight presented within the Manga; Uchiha Madara versus the Gokage.
> 
> So yes to all willing to acknowledge this post, it is clear to me that the Uchiha was trying to win in his fight against the Gokage. You cannot tell me, by activating his personal Susanoo to then multiplying it's presence on the battlefield leads anyone to believe he was putting in 0% into that fight. That is highly ludicrous and your credibility to hold an argument in my eyes is simply plummeting through the floor.
> ...



Sorry I had school 

What more of evidence do you need? The fact that Kishi shoves this shit down our throats should be more then enough. Stuff like Hashirama defeating Madara countless amounts of times, and him beating him + a rampaging Kyuubi. Then we have an absolute casual Madara fucking the Kage over; Link removed

 But then an absolute serious Madara using his strongest tech off the back, and with the aid of the Strongest Bjuii getting his ass handed to him by Hashirama.

Then the fact that mid battle Tsunade said she couldn't believe anybody her grandfather could match someone so powerful, further pushing the notion of Hashirama's superiority. 

Then add the fact of Hashirama being perceived as the "God of Shinobi" and being the strongest of all the Kage ever. 

Who said anything regarding Buddha = Wood Human? If Buddha is brought out, the Gokage get slaughtered 100%. 

Yeah, Wood human does equal PS. Madara was fighting Hashirama the entire time with PS, and Hashirama was easily holding his own with a simple Wood Human. The Gokage simply lack the DC, and durabilty to face the Wood human or PS without getting immediately destroyed. Instantly destroying a mountain range , with the damn shockwave, is extreme power. If Madara hadn't been so cocky and actually aimed the shockwave(or actual sword) I'm their direction, they all would have perished. 

.  No, Onnoki can't fucking Jinton everything he sees away.  You seem to think Jinton is some omnipotent technique. What you fail to realize is 
a) It has a charge up time
b) it is shit size compare to Mokuton constructs
c) he's never been shown to uses it back to back 
d) it's slow and can easily be dodged.
If Onokis Jinton is so hax, then why is he still a mid tier Kage compared to the rest of the Gokage? 

Unless Onoki can get close to the giant chakra construct that tears apart mountains with the pure shockwave of a swing, then he's not slowing anything down. Also add on the fact that he was basically chakra drained from weighing down a meteor that pales compared to the size of PS, draining such a gigantic Sussano ( like he even could without being vaporized) would completely drain him. 

You must not know the durability between PS and any other Sussano in the manga to ignorantly suggest that Mei of all people of all people could even give that thing a damn rash. She was absolutely drowning v2 Sussano in acid and it still took several seconds for the effect to kick in
Link removed - Link removed
As well as her acid barely even effecting Sussano clones. They were still able to successfully land attacks ; Link removed

They had Madara in a lock because he was fucking with them. He sat there for almost minutes just watching them struggle with Sussano clones? Is that what you call having him on lock? If he was serious he could have Dropped meteors on them, roasted them with Katons, skewered them with Moukton, or unleashed PS( while they pre occupied) and vaporized everyone. 

Notice even before that, Madara has other times to kill them but was so busy fucking with them ; Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Being a tactical genius holds nothing in this manga anymore. You could pit Kakashi, Base Minato, Shikamaru, Itachi, and Shikaku against BSM Naruto and they would lose every time.

Is she could not "vaporize" a fodder ass Sussano clone made by a casual Madara them she's not melting the strongest Kages signature move. Not like he would let her even cast a sign before getting smashed into pieces.  - The forest he creates is massively to large for Onoki to even dent with his Jinton, and doing that leaves him open for an attack. Tsunade has inferior regen to Hashirama and add on the fact that NOBODY here is tanking shit. They will get absolutely plastered if they attempt to tank anything. Not a food idea. Yet IIRC, Gaara did no such thing against Madara given opportunities to, so that's not going to happen and he hasn't shown the ability to do so. Magical Mokuton does not equal ground. 

You are damn glad that they have Kurama cloaks to shield them from getting knocked the fuck out at the beginning of the battle. Also I like how you completely ignored the fact that Hashirama can produce a sage enchnaced Genjustu rendering them all blind and useless. Further increasing his 100% chance of winning this.

If a casual Madara beat them without the use of PS, them his superior should handle them without effort.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

*...part I of Onoki's swagger!*



Likes boss said:


> Sorry I had school


I'm glad you didn't find a way to skip school to reply to me. So it is all good my friend. 

I just have to point out Jinton solo's anything and everything it comes into contact with. I am assuming Onoki hasn't been battling his former master Mu and Raikage A's father so he will be in a good enough condition to spam Jinton from the skies or the field and render any construct Hashirama uses useless.



> What more of evidence do you need? The fact that Kishi shoves this shit down our throats should be more then enough. Stuff like Hashirama defeating Madara countless amounts of times, and him beating him + a rampaging Kyuubi. Then we have an absolute casual Madara fucking the Kage over; * then it's enormously larger than gamakichi himself.*


Just because Madara damaged the Gokage and Hashirama is presented to us as his superior it doesn't mean Hashirama stomps or anything to that effect. None of that means Hashirama will be able to replicate the damage inflicted upon them, that kind of scaling is totally irrelevant in the world of Naruto.

Please note how I said damaged, Madara didn't kill the Gokage.

Hashirama's arsenal is perfect for dealing with Madara not the Gokage. 


> But then an absolute serious Madara using his strongest tech off the back, and with the aid of the Strongest Bjuii getting his ass handed to him by Hashirama.


Like I said beforehand Madara's battle with Hashirama is kinda pointless. The Gokage survived his Perfect Susanoo, so did Hashirama when it was combined with the Nine-Tails. Madara did not get his ass handed to him, it was an extremely close match.


> Then the fact that mid battle Tsunade said she couldn't believe anybody her grandfather could match someone so powerful, further pushing the notion of Hashirama's superiority.


 She did a similar thing when she saw Jiraiya had taught the Rasengan to Naruto, she was in awe. It means very little here. Like I said Hashirama is a perfect match up for Madara but not the Gokage, he has perfect counters besides the Gokage were facing a much more resilient Madara than her grandfather. He could regenerate, absorb ninjutsu and had infinite chakra - that is a very different Madara to the one Hashirama faced.


> Then add the fact of Hashirama being perceived as the "God of Shinobi" and being the strongest of all the Kage ever.


I still your argument is being heavily supported with hype, myths and legend. Hashirama fell in battle, that alone negates him being a god of Shinobi. Ignore the hype dude, seriously. He was regarded as a figure because he tamed and dealt out the Tailed Beasts to the nations of the Shinobi world and was considering to be one of the strongest figures in history before uniting a number of highly successful clans including the Uchiha into a systematic order of Ninja Villages. He wasn't just praised on his battle skill alone, seeing as that is all Madara appears to care about. Hashirama was more than just a great ninja on the battlefield.


> Who said anything regarding Buddha = Wood Human? If Buddha is brought out, the Gokage get slaughtered 100%.


No offence but try and stand on the fence on this and all arguments you get involved with. It will allow you to not make such anserine comments. Cause you must be forgetting the two meteors Uchiha Madara brought down upon the Ninja Alliance was a lot bigger and I imagine a lot heavier than a humongous buddah made of wood. Since Gaara and Onoki stopped those meteors whilst damaged and not at 100% health I'm sure they could stop Hashirama's  1000-Armed Buddah. So Wood Human would not be a problem, yes it is a perfect counter for Bijuu Chakra since it is Mokuton based but against a super speed flying Raikage that's impacts are increased enough to shatter a Susanoo, it isn't going to be a problem surly.


> Yeah, Wood human does equal PS. Madara was fighting Hashirama the entire time with PS, and Hashirama was easily holding his own with a simple Wood Human.


I honestly hope you understand that just because Hashirama perfectly countered Madara with the Wood Human doesn't mean it will experience the same use and effectiveness against the Gokage. Just think about it. Whilst the Wood Human is taking out Mei or being swamped with Gaara's sand what is stopping it from being vaporised by a little Jinton from the skies above it? Once we accept Hashirama has no defence from Jinton we can progress in this argument.





> The Gokage simply lack the DC, and durabilty to face the Wood human or PS without getting immediately destroyed. Instantly destroying a mountain range , with the damn shockwave, is extreme power. If Madara hadn't been so cocky and actually aimed the shockwave(or actual sword) I'm their direction, they all would have perished.


Composing the lock that actually trapped Uchiha Madara, which composed of Jinton which is an automatic death to anyone without Preta Path, nullifying Raiton and Suiton chakra, with Gaara's sand to confine and seal the target. Are you cracking the mold and saying that lacks destructive capabilities? Because if I want to gain points here and claim going off Madara's hype in regard to the Gokage that they are on his level as well as Hashirama since he had to use Perfect Susanoo. Also this goes out to anyone, who the hell cares if Madara destroyed a mountain range - did we forget Lord Mu and the Third Tsuchikage doing the exact thing a few chapters before? Get a grip. If Madara had decided to aim his shockwave at the Gokage, would the  Tsuchikage not have stopped it? Or would have Gaara not moved the Gokage, I mean let's be honest the Gokage were not in danger when Madara decided to aim at those mountain tops. If he were, it would have been an entirely different conversation. Alas we can ignore this happening though seeing as Hashirama doesn't have any shockwaves.


> .  No, Onnoki can't fucking Jinton everything he sees away.  You seem to think Jinton is some omnipotent technique. What you fail to realize is
> a) It has a charge up time
> b) it is shit size compare to Mokuton constructs
> c) he's never been shown to uses it back to back
> ...


I'm pretty damn sure unless something more comes up in the Manga to counteract what I'm about to say, minus Preta Path. Jinton will instantly destroy anything it comes into contact with. The Dust Release is that powerful, which is why Onoki said he needed to fight Mu because unless you can

Absorb it (see Madara using Preta Path against it).
Evade it (see Kamui: Sasuke versus Kage at the Kage Summit).
Use Jinton against it (see Mu versus Onoki).
...you're gonna' die. 

Ahem:

Charge up time yes but quick enough for Madara to get caught by it.
Shit size comparison? Is that why it totally wiped out the forest area surrounding the Gokage?
It's slow... compared to what the speed of motherfucking light? It isn't slow, or Madara Mokuton Bunshin would have evaded it. They were literally looking at death.

People saying Onoki is this and mid-tier that doesn't mean shit to me. People who scale like that don't actually understand life. I mean seriously on a good day I may wreck the living shit out of boss due to existing circumstances and situation happenings. On another day I may not due to different circumstances and situations. Same applies in this Manga.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 25, 2013)

*...part II of Onoki's swagger (exceeded post limit again)!*



> Unless Onoki can get close to the giant chakra construct that tears apart mountains with the pure shockwave of a swing, then he's not slowing anything down.


Why is this relevant? Hashirama doesn't have shockwaves and Jinton is a projectile he doesn't have to get near it to reduce it's molecules into nothingness.


> Also add on the fact that he was basically chakra drained from weighing down a meteor that pales compared to the size of PS, draining such a gigantic Sussano ( like he even could without being vaporized) would completely drain him.


Perfect Susanoo is nowhere need the size of the two meteors that annihilated the Ninja Alliance. Anyhow like I mentioned if Onoki can stop those celestial rocks with some help from Gaara's sand then he isn't going to have a problem with a wooden statue.



> You must not know the durability between PS and any other Sussano in the manga to ignorantly suggest that Mei of all people of all people could even give that thing a damn rash. She was absolutely drowning v2 Sussano in acid and it still took several seconds for the effect to kick in
> * then it's enormously larger than gamakichi himself.* -


I'm rather impressed with Mei, considering she forced Madara to turn his ribcage Susanoo into a more advanced skeletal form. I'm just wondering you see how in that scan you presented how Madara protected himself with his Susanoo, how would Hashirama shield himself from that, without getting a Jinton to the face.



> * then it's enormously larger than gamakichi himself.*
> As well as her acid barely even effecting Sussano clones. They were still able to successfully land attacks ; * then it's enormously larger than gamakichi himself.*


She was using Lava Release not Boil Release. In that instance though, if she had used Boil Release unless Madara absorbed it she would have likely triggered Madara to use Perfect Susanoo even faster.



> They had Madara in a lock because he was fucking with them. He sat there for almost minutes just watching them struggle with Sussano clones? Is that what you call having him on lock? If he was serious he could have Dropped meteors on them, roasted them with Katons, skewered them with Moukton, or unleashed PS( while they pre occupied) and vaporized everyone.


Just answer me how Madara would have got out of THIS without his Susanoo. Then explain to me how Hashirama would escape it?



> Notice even before that, Madara has other times to kill them but was so busy fucking with them ; THIS
> THIS
> THIS
> Being a tactical genius holds nothing in this manga anymore. You could pit Kakashi, Base Minato, Shikamaru, Itachi, and Shikaku against BSM Naruto and they would lose every time.



Facepalm. I'm fucking glad you put that at the end of your post, cause if I had seen it earlier I wouldn't be dignifying your post with a response. 



> - snip -



Fact is the Gokage would have defeated Madara had he not had Preta Path, had they not been damaged from the two Meteor (Onoki and Gaara). The lock I spoke about, you haven't told me how Hashirama would escape that. That is where most of my argument lies, I don't really care that Madara defeated the Gokage. He played the game with them and shit himself cause he almost lost, several times. If you had the Gokage as mindless drones that were after blood and didn't bother to stop and stare at him, the fight would have been very different - even if Madara was going all out.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 25, 2013)

I also need to emphasize the tremendous boost of power that each of the Gokage would receive from Naruto's Version 1 cloak being bestowed on them. Look at Hinata:


Hinata's Hakke Kusho before Naruto's Version 1 Cloak
Hinata's Hakke Kusho _after_ Naruto's Version 1 Cloak
Sasuke's Complete Stage Susano'o before the Version 1 Cloak
Sasuke's Complete Stage Susano'o _after_ the Version 1 Cloak
Choji's Baika no Jutsu before Version 1 Cloak 
Choji's Baika no Jutsu _after_ Version 1 Cloak
Shikamaru's Kagemane no Jutsu before Version 1 Cloak
Shikamaru's Kagemane no Jutsu _after_ Version 1 Cloak
Ino's Shintenshin before Version 1 Cloak
Ino's Shintenshin _after_ Version 1 Cloak

As you can see, a _massive_ increase in power for shinobi who were, before, not even Kage in caliber. Now with five Kage wearing the cloaks, we can infer Gaara can manipulate and create sand on the level of Hashirama's Mokuton. Onoki can use the supersized Jinton casually and create even larger ones. A's strength and speed should increase to near Biju Mode Naruto amounts and he'll gain the dexterity of the Chakra Arms and the tail. Tsunade's strength will be increased to tremendous amounts and she can summon Katsuyu's 5/10 which should be the size of Shinsusenju. Mei will be using battlefield flooding Suitons, creating practical volcano's with her Yoton, and making geysers of Futton. 

Sorry, with that increase of power, even Edo Madara would most likely lose the battle.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 26, 2013)

Nope, any version of Madara wipes them out with one swing of Perfect Susano'o.

He and Hashirama are on another level entirely. V1 cloaks don't change anything.


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## Brooks (Nov 26, 2013)

This forum seriously needs a long education between powerlevels if they believe this Gokage is defeating Hashirama...

lol at @ SaCrEdpOoL....he actually believes Ōnoki can solo Hashirama


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## J★J♥ (Nov 26, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I was more so referring to the handjob she gave him off screen but what you mentioned also works.



I hope you understand that he wasted most of his own firing 5 jintons against Muus one using 4 clones to spam them in all directions in hope to hit invisible man. *At the point when he fought Trollkage he already was unable to cast Jinton on his own THATS why he needed tsunades chakra.*

And unless you can tell me how the hell will Hashirama survive first spam of jinton when his usual tactic against attacks like that is rashomon then Onoki oneshots him.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> I hope you understand that he wasted most of his own firing 5 jintons against Muus one using 4 clones to spam them in all directions in hope to hit invisible man. *At the point when he fought Trollkage he already was unable to cast Jinton on his own THATS why he needed tsunades chakra.*
> 
> And unless you can tell me how the hell will Hashirama survive first spam of jinton when his usual tactic against attacks like that is rashomon then Onoki oneshots him.



I hope you understand that Tsunade healed Onoki once she got to the battle field.

Why are you bringing up Hashirama? In the post I quoted you said, and in fact I will quote you on this "" and I said "". So where is Hashi coming from?


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## J★J♥ (Nov 26, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I hope you understand that Tsunade healed Onoki once she got to the battle field.
> 
> Why are you bringing up Hashirama? In the post I quoted you said, and in fact I will quote you on this "" and I said "". So where is Hashi coming from?



This is gokage vs Hashi and yes Fresh Onoki would do that by himself. she Healed his physical wounds not chakra thats different he still was unable to use jinton when meteor fell she did not restore his chakra.


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## Bonly (Nov 26, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> This is gokage vs Hashi



And were we talking about this or was talking about how you think Onoki could solo Edo Madara?



> and yes Fresh Onoki would do that by himself.



No, no he wouldn't and after reading your post I would have to say that you failed to actually provide any actual good reason as to why. Concession accepted.



> she Healed his physical wounds not chakra thats different he still was unable to use jinton when meteor fell she did not restore his chakra.



You do realize that the jutsu to heal physical and to give chakra is basically the same jutsu right? When Tsunade(and other medical ninja) go to heal physical via Shōsen jutsu, they do it by sending chakra(from themselves) onto the other persons wound to heal them and as we have seen Tsunade was only touching Onoki back and healed the rest of his body. Would it be thinking too far outside of the box to suggest she was able to give him(and Gaara) some chakra as well as heal them at once?


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## Veracity (Nov 26, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> Why is this relevant? Hashirama doesn't have shockwaves and Jinton is a projectile he doesn't have to get near it to reduce it's molecules into nothingness.
> Perfect Susanoo is nowhere need the size of the two meteors that annihilated the Ninja Alliance. Anyhow like I mentioned if Onoki can stop those celestial rocks with some help from Gaara's sand then he isn't going to have a problem with a wooden statue.
> 
> I'm rather impressed with Mei, considering she forced Madara to turn his ribcage Susanoo into a more advanced skeletal form. I'm just wondering you see how in that scan you presented how Madara protected himself with his Susanoo, how would Hashirama shield himself from that, without getting a Jinton to the face.
> ...



Sorry, I had work, then I ate, then I watched Korra, then went the fuck to sleep. 

Onoki was healed and chakra replenished  by Tsunade so that's awfully irrelevant. Lol I wonder why he didn't just immediately destroy Madara(when he first came) and Mizukage with his omnipotent Jinton? 

If anything, that means he stomps them. Madara casually beat the Kage, and could have done so without the Rinnegan or Moukton if serious. And Hashirama beat him + the strongest tailed beast. So id say he has a awfully high advantage. It's not a matter of false logic, he just simply has the necessary Justu to end their lives.

Are you under the impression that Madara could not have killed? That's just...it's kinda hard taking you seriously if that's what you mean. He left them unconscious and close to death on the floor. Then arrived to help Obito in literally perfect condition. He could have PS'D and dropped meteors while slashing shock waves over their corpses. 

The Gokage did not survive anything. He didn't even attack them with PS, it cancelled out, and that was the end. He proceeded to toy with them. He could have reactivated it and killed everyone if he wanted. But then again he was fucking with them. And the only reason Hashirama barely won was because Madara layered the Kyuubi with PS, and rendered Hashirama's greatest Justu basically useless. Without the Kyuubi, Madara would have died at that exact moment, and Hashirama would not have been touched at all. 

Tsunade was surprised at Naruto's potential at such a young age, that was nothing to do with what she said here; THIS
Being in awe that someone could defeat an opponent that is soloing the 5 Kage is completely different. It indicates that he is superior to them all. And Madara specifically says this yet again;  THIS

Your going to have to explain to me how his abilities are a perfect counter to Madara, cause I'm not seeing it at all. 

The funny part is, If Madara was serious he wouldn't have to use any of his Rinni or Mokuoton abilites.  He could pull out large scale Katon and PS, and the battle would be over from the start. You also forgot to add that Madara had aid from the strongest Bjuii. 

Are you damn serious? Juubito just fell in battle and he's the strongest ninja bar RS. He would solo the Kage a million times over, that necessarily isn't a good example. Hashirama could have fallen to entire villages and Tailed beasts, we have no idea how he died.

Madara( who defeated the Kage ) views Hashirama as his superior in power. Even after seeing the full extent of the Gokage we still him viewing him under Hashirama.


You do realize that those Meteors were smaller then PS right ? ; THIS
No let's gauge the size of Kurama(a bit smaller then PS) compared to the giant statue ; THIS
Onnoki is not stopping an object 10's of times larger then a meteor, which absolutely drained and almost killed him. 
Not to mention, the statue isn't going to just lean over and all down, it's going to be punching from several letters away, each arm bigger then Kurama. All of the Kages cant defend against a barrage that can take 10 PS Sword TBB's and a enough power to strip PS. They are screwed. 

Raikage when weightened couldn't break a V2 Sussano. Now your saying he can injure something with more durabilty then PS, and more damage output then PS? Haaa that's funny. Not to mention his speed is useless considering he can't escape 1000 Kurama sized arms. 

Not to mention that Wood Human still equals PS, and you've yet to show a plan for the Kages to beat such without just saying " Jinton" or "Acid" blah blah. They gets about murdered. They have no chance. 

Think about, the biggest Jinton Onnoki ever made( while supercharged with Tsunade) that probably took a great deal of both their chakra, was less then half the size of PS, which is the same size as Wood Human. His Jinton would probably be sufficient enough to blow out a knee cap at most. Then what does Hashirama do? Restores the damn construct like nothing. Not to mention he's not going to be dealing with specific Kage when his construct towers over mountains. He hits the ground, they all die before even Onnoki can attempt flight. 

The problem with everything you said is that Madara DID NOT HAVE to get caught by the trap. He was too busy fucking with them. He sat there and WATCHED them battle his clones for hours, he sat there and watched as Onnoki slowly started to get up and destroy the Mokuton, he neglected to use PS or even meteors until the Kage started showing potential. 

Do you honestly think that Madara could not have killed them with PS, as soon as they were effected by the pollen? Do you honestly think while they were struggling against the clones, Madara could not have dropped another Meteor or killed them with PS? Yeah Madara had that fight in the bag the entire time, if he had killing intent. 

You could claim the Kage are on par with a PS less Madara, but that isn't as impressive considering Madara gains his most of his power from that. They are by NO means equal to PS in anyway. They would get demolished by that justu. 

When the fuck did Mu destroy mountains? And if Madara had by chance actually aimed at them instead of being a cocky bastard, then he would have killed them. Hashirama doesn't need " shockwaves"( which he probably can create from the sheer force of swinging his arm) he can just use the sheet size of his giant construct to lay waste to entire mountains around him by pounding away. 

OR you could just dodge it, or not let Onoki use it ? Is that simple. Madara barley got caught by a supercharged gigantic Jinton while he sat there and watched him charge it. Considering Hashirama without SM, can cross a mountain range( far bigger then the size of Jinton) and evade a TBB, and summon gates ; THIS
Then he should have no problem evading Jinton, and if he even gets skimmed, he can regenerate. 

The forest area damaged wasn't as large as Wood Human.  

Yet Onnoki has always fired Jinton off at close range? It's a close range projectile that he can make grow at the expense of more chakra.  All of this doesn't change the fact that he gets by by a shockwave that is as large as mountains( he can't avoid a damn v4 Sussano arm) Also you said he would slow down Sussano, so he would have to get close you know? And Hashiramas Wood human is so large, a single ground pound( or wood dragon extension) would kill them all. 

PS is larger, already proved this. And there a difference between a falling rock and a larger intelligent Wood Human actually attacking them. 

He wouldn't be in that predicament considering he would hesitate to bring out Wood Human. Even so, he would travel this his forest to evade. 

Yet again, Hashirama isn't going to fuck with them. If he makes 25 clones( which pressured the Kage canonically) then he's going to proceed to prep SM, and bring the Buddha out. 

Nobody Except Onoki and Tsunade are actually tactically above Hashirama. Ay is just stupid , Gaara lacks the experience, and Mei is just Mei.

Nice to know you decided to to completely  ignore the entire post cause you obviously have no counter for such Justu. Tell me, how do the Kage avoid a Genjustu 10's larger then the one that caught Hiruzen ?  

Face it, If Madara had been serious, he could have activated PS, as soon as he knocked them out and killed them. He is an entire different tier then while damn team. He's just superior.


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## Jagger (Nov 26, 2013)

BringerOfChaos said:


> *@Jagger*Actually only Mei and Gaara lost their moral[Gaara being debatable]
> 
> 
> Tsunade and Ei were ready to attack perfect susanoo.


I don't remember much from that chapter, so I didn't feel like being specific.



> Also honestly, if Madara didn't have regeneration, infinite chakra, mokuton, or rinnegan...
> 
> The Gokage would have won with extreme difficulty due to Perfect Susanoo.


No, he would have still won. Even faster. Why? For the same reason a living Madara is weaker than the Edo version, because the latter is a zombie. Trhough most of the fight, he didn't take the Gokage seriously at the sightlest. It was only when thry broke through his Ribcage Susano'O and they oblirated his 25 Susano'O clones that he took them seriously.

After that, the Gokage pretty much lost the fight.


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## M king16 (Nov 26, 2013)

Hashirama low diff


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 26, 2013)

Onoki solos Hashirama by feats.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 26, 2013)

Just saying Hashirama wins while ignoring he's a completely different fighter from Madara, as well as ignoring that the Gokage have _counters_ to Mokuton is a misnomer and shows that Hashirama's supporters can't debate other than 'He's Hashirama' of course he wins!' The Gokage now are powered up _immensely_ from Naruto's Version 1 Cloak given the differences I showed from uncloaked Rookies to Cloaked Rookies.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 26, 2013)

Wait, OP gave them V1 cloaks?
LOL.

As if this is still a debate.


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## BurningVegeta (Nov 26, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> - snip -


I don't mind that you think Hashirama is beyond the destruction capabilities of Jinton anymore. If that is your personal belief who am I to change that. No-where has it been stated Hashirama can regenerate limbs. Madara stated Hashirama's healing abilities were like that of Tsunade's therefore we cannot assume if Hashirama lost an arm he could simply regenerate it back, like you're suggesting. I know you don't believe that Jinton is powerful and literally is an omnipotent technique but it actually can destroy a mountain. Also, it is wise to stop power-scaling Madara off against Hashirama especially from two different facets of the Manga. You are comparing:

Alive Madara with no Rinnegan but controlling the Kyubi ...to Edo Tensei, Hashirama reinforced bodied Madara with Rinnegan but no Kyubi, to the likes of Hashirama. It makes no sense. If Madara had the Rinnegan in his fight with Hashirama in the founding of Konoha it might have been a different outcome.

I'm not ignoring the Bringer-of-Darkness Technique I just thought it a little odd you bring it up. Hiruzen worked around it and so will Kage who have surpassed his brilliance. It isn't really a game changer.

I acknowledge Madara could have killed the Gokage effortlessly but I am being fair to the character Madara is. He almost lost the fight several times, thus his battle skill and efficiency is severely compromised. Not once did I say the Gokage are or were equal to the power of Madara's Perfect Susanoo.

If you think Hashirama wins 100% of the time, you clearly don't understand the fundamental essence of this manga. If Tsunade starts reminiscing over her life with her grandfather and he starts crying or some shit and he get's Jinton'd ...what could you say then? Nothing. Or is Mei goes ape shit and gases herself, the Gokage and the Hokage, what could he do then? Nothing. Or Gaara starts moving tiny amounts of sand into Hashirama's blind spot unnoticeable to the Hokage and then stabs him in the neck. It could happen. 

Not once did I say the Gokage automatically win as the result of what I'm saying. I literally defending them saying they have a chance, 5 Kage level Ninja with the supplements of the Kurama's Chakra Cloak to aid them - presents them with a _chance _to win.

I know there is a blatant power difference comparing the individual talents of the Gokage but battles aren't just won with power alone. Once more explain to me, how Hashirama would escape the lock? Oh yes, he couldn't. Anyway, reply if you want but I won't be. You're clearly locked with the idea because he is powerful and because he is allegedly more powerful than Madara he automatically wins and that my friend is bullshit of the highest calibre. 

GG


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## Veracity (Nov 26, 2013)

BurningVegeta said:


> I don't mind that you think Hashirama is beyond the destruction capabilities of Jinton anymore. If that is your personal belief who am I to change that. No-where has it been stated Hashirama can regenerate limbs. Madara stated Hashirama's healing abilities were like that of Tsunade's therefore we cannot assume if Hashirama lost an arm he could simply regenerate it back, like you're suggesting. I know you don't believe that Jinton is powerful and literally is an omnipotent technique but it actually can destroy a mountain. Also, it is wise to stop power-scaling Madara off against Hashirama especially from two different facets of the Manga. You are comparing:
> 
> Alive Madara with no Rinnegan but controlling the Kyubi ...to Edo Tensei, Hashirama reinforced bodied Madara with Rinnegan but no Kyubi, to the likes of Hashirama. It makes no sense. If Madara had the Rinnegan in his fight with Hashirama in the founding of Konoha it might have been a different outcome.
> 
> ...


Nice to know you failed to provide a concrete rebuttal based on the idea that you personally see my posts as ignorant yet you can't prove anything and most agree with the post I presented. 

  You must not understand my views towards Jinton. I know how the Justu works, it destroys everything it comes into contact with( basically anything) on a molecular level. The problem is, the Justu can only expand to a certain size( nothing big compared to Wood constructs), hasn't shown to be shot out like a projectile, takes a ton of chakra, and can easily just be dodged. That's why this specific Justu isn't anything special to Hashirama. 

You realize that Tsunade can regenerate limbs right? If she could regenerate destroyed organs and spinal cords, then she could regenerate limbs. It's even in the DB, the Justu simply rebuilds cells. An entire limb should not be an exception. Madara actually watched Tsunade completely regenerate Organs and then went on to say her regeneration technique pales in comparison to Hashirama's.

I compare them because they have comparable Justu and Hashirama is the superior. When it comes to firepower, in SM , Hashirama completely outclasses Madara.  Durabilty wise, using Wood Human, Buddha Statue, And Wood Hoti, he easily outclasses Madara. He has foot speed atleast comparable to Madara's, higher reactions( augmented my SM) and also has the edge in chakra reserves. He is literally better then him in everyway. Saying that the Kage have a chance based on the fact that Madara and Hashirama aren't complete copies is completely ignorant. It's like saying that Juubito( because he is superior to the Madara we have seen) would not beat the Kage because his skill set isn't suited to like Madara's is. 

If Madara fought Hashirama with the Rinnegan and not the Kyyubi he would have gotten murder stomped. He wouldn't have the necessary DC to really do anything once Hashirama pulls out SM. 

Hiruzen barely survived the technique at the cost of his life. He also was sparring with Shinobi weaker then himself. They landed several weak attacks( plot bullshit) and Hiruzen finished them at the cost of his life.  And that was the weakest form of Hashirama on the planet. You realize if he castes that Justu on the Kage it would be atleast 10 times stronger then back then? Even if the Kage magically found some way to work around being absolutely blind, it would heavily lower their skill set. Ay and Tsunade wouldn't know where to strike, Onoki wouldn't know where to Jinton, Mei wouldn't know where to cast Suiton, and Gaara may be the only person helpful if Hashirama happens to be on the sand( and not a clone) All while Hashirama can just sit there and send out Wood constructs and clones to kill them. 

If you agree that Madara could have( and I quote) "effortlessly" killed the Kage, then what are we debating about? If Hashirama is superior to Madara I'm everyway, then he should have even less of difficulty killing them. & the only reason Madara was even close to dying any times was because he was messing with them. If he had been serious and immediately casted PS, and spammed Mountain destroying Slashes and Town level of Katons, then he would have fodderized them. 

You can't sit here and seriously use Hashirama's emotions against him in a hypothetical BD match. That's illogical.
What if Mei saw Ay get completely killed by a Wood Construct and was shocked in complete terror? What if Hashirama looked the at the 5 Kage and wondered why the hell he was fighting them in the first place? 

 If Mei decided to Gas everything, she most likely hits a wood construct or wood clone. Or Hashirama simply Shunshins out of the AoE and watches as she just killed everybody. When has Gaara shown to do that? He sure as hell did not such thing against all the EDO Kage and Madara, so that isn't happening in this battle. Even if Gaara tried that( which is basically putting it at an omnipotent level) then Any Kage Level opponent would surely notice and evade.  

Depending on the Boost of the Chakra cloak, it shifts their chances. If they get the absolute biggest boost possible, then they have like a 20% chance at absolute most. If they get the average boost, then they die horribly every time. 

Hashirama escapes the lock by simply not fucking around and getting put into it. He has the power( just like his inferior rival) to simply kill them once the match starts.  Saying that Hashirama > Madara in every aspect except swagger. Them saying Madara > Gokage, obviosuly means that Hashirama > Gokage. 

It's common sense. GG


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2013)

ahahaahaah lolll at ppl saying gokage 
Hashirama completely curbstomps them 
base hashirama can take this 
add in sm and buddha obliterates


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