# Naruto top 10 ninja: a free-for-all fight



## Mercurial (Aug 5, 2013)

They start with 30 mt of distance and fight in the areas around Konoha, but if it happens they can go in the village as well (no one is in); knowledge as is in the manga, characters are IC, with the mindset to kill and survive as best as they can

The ninja who are in this incredible fight are ten of the best ninja of the Naruto world:

- *Madara* (with his abilities as an Edo, but with an alive, non Edo body)
- *Hashirama* (alive, non Edo body)
- *Minato* (alive, non Edo body and no KCM)
- *Naruto* (all of his abilities, modes and jutsu)
- *Nagato* (all Rinnegan powers in his body, no Pain, he has an alive, non Edo body)
- *Obito* (with everything he has shown before to became the Juubi's jinchuuriki, he could summon the Gedo but not making him become the Juubi)
- *Kakashi* (all of his abilities and jutsu, has a reserve of soldier pills ready)
- *Sasuke* (all of his abilities and jutsu)
- *Tobirama* (alive, non Edo body, he has Edo Tensei up to 10 jonin level Senju clansmen)
- *Itachi* (alive, non Edo body, not fanboys' fanfic healthy Itachi, not dying sick Itachi too; no Koto who he can't use)

These are my choices for the best, I selected them but Kabuto, Might Guy, Killer Bee, Mu, Onoki, Danzo are also very strong and skilled ninja who could have made the top in my opinion  also Kisame and the Raikages too

I would like some good reasoning (please no stupid databook values references but just feats and eventually if needed portrayal) on what would happen if they fought everyone against everyone


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

I want everybody to know that I voted Itachi, _and I'd do it again._ He's . Read the manga, bros. Like Batman, he wins because he's Itachi. He is your jutsu's weakness. Accept it.

Madara: Izanami
Hashirama: Tsukuyomi
Minato: Tsukuyomi
Naruto: Tsukuyomi
Nagato: Totsuka
Obito: Izanami
Kakashi: Stalemate
Sasuke: Totsuka
Tobirama: Kunai
Itachi: Stalemate
Kabuto: Totsuka
Might Guy: Amaterasu
Killer Bee: Tsukuyomi
Mū: Amaterasu
Ōnoki: Amaterasu
Danzō: Izanami
Rikudō: Totsuka

Itachi would defeat everybody else in a Battle Royale with his chessmaster foresight and ability to control them all with genjutsu. So say his name. He's the man that killed Gus Fring. Now say it.​


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

Minato or Naruto. 

Minato because he can teleport using Hirashin to avoid any unnecessary confrontations and Naruto because of his KB usage. I am not saying these two are the strongest currently, but they are the best suited for this type of match.


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## Mercurial (Aug 5, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I want everybody to know that I voted Itachi, _and I'd do it again._ He's . Read the manga, bros. Like Batman, he wins because he's Itachi. He is your jutsu's weakness. Accept it.
> 
> Madara: Izanami
> Hashirama: Tsukuyomi
> ...



I see what you did there


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## Octavian (Aug 5, 2013)

Minato and Obito have the best evasive techniques but Hashirama, Madara, and BM naruto have the most stamina. If i had to pick just one, i'd probably go with Hashirama since that is fairly consistent with the author's portrayal of shodai being the strongest until juubito came along


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Octavian said:


> Minato and Obito have the best evasive techniques but Hashirama, Madara, and BM naruto have the most stamina. If i had to pick just one, i'd probably go with Hashirama since that is fairly consistent with the author's portrayal of shodai being the strongest until juubito came along



Author portrayal:





Obito also knew that Itachi >  Jūbito. That's why he waited.



Base Sharingan Itachi > Edo Hokages + Orochimaru + Sound Village > Konoha



Here's the omniscient black Zetsu knowing what's up.



SAY HIS NAME.


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## Vice (Aug 5, 2013)

Ridiculous trolling and wank aside, Hashirama currently takes this until he is knocked off his throne in canon.


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

Actually Obito or Minato will win. They are the hardest to hit, and that very fact keeps them alive and well while Hashirama & Madara gun for each other, steamrolling over anything in the way. When they're too tired to continue, Obito or Minato jump in and steal a victory.

Obito has the better full-proof defense, so he's the most likely to live through the chaos, though if Minato _does_ survive, he defeats Obito at the end..


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## Mercurial (Aug 5, 2013)

Strategood is soloing as the true king would  



Rocky said:


> Actually Obito or Minato will win. They are the hardest to hit, and that very fact keeps them alive and well while Hashirama & Madara gun for each other, steamrolling over anything in the way. When they're too tired to continue, Obito or Minato jump in and steal a victory.
> 
> Obito has the better full-proof defense, so he's the most likely to live through the chaos, though if Minato _does_ survive, he defeats Obito at the end..



Yeah I see too things going like this, Madara, Hashirama, Nagato, Naruto and Sasuke nukes themselves with their powerful and destructive jutsu style as Susanoo, Wood Style and Kurama powers/Rasenshuriken, but they could always be taken off guard from the hax of Minato's Hiraishin or Kakashi's Kamui, or the blindside warping from Obito... or Totsuka sword from Itachi, but this is more unlikely to happen


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

First off I disagree with your top 10. There is no way Itachi and Kakashi should be Top 10. Even Tobirama and EMS Sasuke i'm not sure, since right now while they've both shown great abilities they still need to show more before I consider them top 10. As for who the actual top 10 are certainly Rikudo deserves one of the spots taken up by the above characters. Besides him Kabuto, Danzo, and Orochimaru are all more qualified than Itachi & Kakashi, while it's debatable in the case of Tobirama & EMS Sasuke since they are still accumulating feats. However even than we have other contenders like Kushina, Mito, Elder/Younger Son, White Fang, Prime Hanzo, Prime Onoki, Izuna, Prime Hiruzen, etc... who might qualify. So I'm not sure a top 10 list can be made right now. Unless were talking strictly in terms of shown feats:

Rikudo, Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Naruto, Kabuto, Orochimaru, & Danzo; in no specific order.

As for the actual match honestly  Kakashi, Minato, Obito, & Tobirama are the most likely victors, simply due to the fact that they can teleport far away, while allowing the others to kill each other, than teleport back and pick off any stragglers. Tobirama I'm not sure if he has a FTG marker in some faraway place, but I'd imagine he does. So basically we have Kakashi vsTobirama vs Minato vs Obito at the end, Obito looses instantly to Minato due to FTG Marker already placed on him, than out of the remaining three Minato has the best feats, though Tobirama gives him a run for his money now.

And no I don't think Kakashi, Tobirama, Minato, or Obito are stronger than Madara or Hashirama, just due to the nature of this battle S-T Jutsu are the best for this situation.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> contenders like Kushina, Mito, Elder/Younger Son, White Fang, Prime Hanzo, Prime Onoki, Izuna, Prime Hiruzen, etc... who might qualify.



Kakashi beats them all. Prime Itachi might beat them all at the same time.


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## Jagger (Aug 5, 2013)

Obito or Minato win as Rocky already stated.

Anyway, I'm more concerned about the state of the battlefield. :sanju


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Danzou and Orochimaru are nowhere near the top 10.

Tobirama needs better feats before he deserves consideration.

And Kakashi doesn't deserve to be here; he isn't top 10 and he'd be one of the first to run out of chakra.

With that out of the way,

*Serious answer:* Obviously Hashirama.

*Funny/Troll answer:* Obviously Itachi.


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## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2013)

Stratz has it right; prime Kakashi has piqued my interest though.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Danzou and Orochimaru are nowhere near the top 10.
> 
> Tobirama needs better feats before he deserves consideration.
> 
> ...


Orochi can summon & control at least 2 hokages, if not 3. He's also sannin level+ with out them do to getting zestu body upgrades. He also has the mask which allows the death god to be summoned and has perhaps the most knowledge of different characters abilities in the manga cannon due to the time he spent in Kabuto.

Danzo is invincible for 10min and has koto hax he can use w/o 10 year recharge time. He Also has mokuton and hashi DNA on top of some serious fuuinjutsu skill. 

These two are obviously major contenders, especially orochi


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 5, 2013)

Top Ten excluding Rikudo 

Obito
Minato
Naruto
Sasuke
Hashirama
Madara
Kabuto
Itachi 
Orochimaru
Tobirama


Hiruzen, Mito, Nagato, Kushina could also quality but need more feats 

As for who would win a free for all I say with all his abilites intact I would say Minato due to being the best S/T user, no one can really touch him, shit it took Juubito to give him his first damage done in his life


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> First off I disagree with your top 10. There is no way Itachi and Kakashi should be Top 10.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 5, 2013)

I'd definitely replace Tobirama & Kakashi with SM Kabuto & Killer B imho. So essentially.... Madara, Obito, Hashirama, EMS Sasuke, Nagato, Naruto, Killer B, Itachi, Minato & Onoki in an all out battle.

Sasuke, Itachi, SM Kabuto & Killer B duke it out in there mid level fight, and get vaporized in the hell hole crossfire when Nagato, BM Naruto, Hashirama & Madara start nuking each other off the planet in the mother of all nuke fest. 

Obito trolls everything and simply watches the fireworks via _Kamui_ camping, while Minato is a wild card seeing he's just as evasive but unless he tags in another country he is not escaping the AoE of multiple _Bijudama_, CST, PS, CT, _Tengai Shinsei_, _Shin Shenju_ being unleashed left and right

So either Obito is the last one, or Minato survives with the skin of his teeth, and then kills Obito 1 vs. 1


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## Nikushimi (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Orochi can summon & control at least 2 hokages, if not 3. He's also sannin level+ with out them do to getting zestu body upgrades. He also has the mask which allows the death god to be summoned and has perhaps the most knowledge of different characters abilities in the manga cannon due to the time he spent in Kabuto.



And yet he still has nothing to stop someone like Itachi or Minato from simply having their way with him.

Edo Tensei doesn't change that. All the knowledge in the ninja world doesn't change that. All the mask is good for against a truly competent enemy is hiding Orochimaru's face when he's getting his ass ground-and-pounded so no one will recognize him when the video goes viral on WorldStar.



> Danzo is invincible for 10min and has koto hax he can use w/o 10 year recharge time.



Izanagi can be outlasted by anyone with good stamina and Kotoamatsukami is next to useless in a fight unless their are multiple enemies and they don't know about it.



> He Also has mokuton and hashi DNA on top of some serious fuuinjutsu skill.



Danzou's Mokuton is nearly useless outside of a last-second defense and his Fuinjutsu can be evaded like any other standard attack from someone with his speed.



> These two are obviously major contenders, especially orochi



Neither of them are even close; you still have guys like the two known Raikage and Killer B who absolutely shit on them yet may not even make the cut themselves.


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## Santoryu (Aug 5, 2013)

None of the 5 Kage are worthy of being in the top 10, that includes Onoki; Kabuto could easily fit somewhere in there though, even without Edo-tensei he's a force to be reckoned with.

Kakashi and  Itachi don't necessarily have the fire-power characters like Nagato possess, but they make up for it with efficiency and superior intellect-a wide arsenal of hax abilities (Kamui, Sharingan genjutsu, Izanami, etc) warrant them a place in the list methinks.

What I find puzzling is that some people are suggesting combatants like Onoki should replace characters who can contend with some of the most powerful baddies in the manga (Obito/Kabuto) even in base Kakashi's Sharingan genjutsu was potent enough to stalemate Obito-he's physically good enough to contend with version-two beasts-and Itachi, well, he's Itachi.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Madara
Nagato
Hashirama
Naruto
Kabuto
Sasuke
B
Gaara
Itachi
Tobirama

My rankings in general, Madara is at the top because the thread says he has all of his abilities. As for the winner of this thread I would have to go with Naruto because of clones. This is simply too much people to accurately call a winner because anyone can be warped or sniped etc. Naruto has the best chances here IMO. Honorable mention is A and Oro but Oro hasnt shown enough, I do believe he is above Sasuke still.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 5, 2013)

The top ten imho would be (with these stipulations)...

Hashirama
Madara
Obito
Naruto
Nagato
SM Kabuto
Minato
EMS Sasuke
Itachi
Killer B/Onoki could flip flop

Like most say Obito & Minato are the last two standing. Hashirama, Naruto, Madara & Hashirama take out the other 4 along with themselves when their battle escalates to all out nukage sterilizes the providence they are fighting in


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 5, 2013)

I'd say Itachi would win this. 
Itachi is a true ninja, he'd just play it subtle, create confusion here and there with genjutsu and bunshins, not get involved directly. And when the time comes he'd just ambush the last man standing. 
The other person who'd think in the same line would probably be Kakashi but he isn't strong enough to pull that off. 

It'd probably be Madara vs Hashirama in the end all over again and the winner would get ambushed by Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say Itachi would win this.
> Itachi is a true ninja, he'd just play it subtle, create confusion here and there with genjutsu and bunshins, not get involved directly. And when the time comes he'd just ambush the last man standing.
> The other person who'd think in the same line would probably be Kakashi but he isn't strong enough to pull that off.
> 
> It'd probably be Madara vs Hashirama in the end all over again and the winner would get ambushed by Itachi.



I think Kakashi could pull it off too. He's very similar to Itachi in skill, though less extreme in certain areas like genjutsu, seals, weapons, etc. He's very slippery when he wants to be.​


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## Mercurial (Aug 5, 2013)

I agree

I see Kakashi and Itachi on the same level more or less, maybe slightly better Kakashi because not many people can counter genjutsu but the ones who can trumps more Itachi than Kakashi, while only Obito and Minato could (and that's not sure at all) avoid to be GG warped by Kamui; Kakashi and Itachi are two incredibly skilled and well rounded ninja, both really fast and good in CQC (I'd give the edge to Kakashi because of Raiton weaponry and Raikiri in CQC,but Itachi has partial Susano'o don't forget), both smart as fuck, both great in ninjutsu and genjutsu with Kakashi better in ninjutsu and Itachi better in genjutsu

Also please, don't make it a tier list thread, or mods will surely close!


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## ImSerious (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Madara
> Nagato
> Hashirama
> Naruto
> ...



Gaara and Bee made ur list but Minato didnt?


seems legit.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> Gaara and Bee made ur list but Minato didnt?
> 
> 
> seems legit.



Minato has not shown anything that would suggest he is above either of them. B reacted to his FTG twice and has a lot more in his arsenal while Gaara is arguably the most versatile person in the manga when it comes to ninjutsu. I find it hard to put a one trick pony in the top 10 though I was debating between him and Tobirama, but Tobirama has shown faster reactions (and possibly speed) along with more than just S/T Ninjutsu and as per the thread has ET. Minato needs to show more.


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## ImSerious (Aug 5, 2013)

.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

You asked and I told you, if you have no argument then dont waste my time


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## ueharakk (Aug 5, 2013)

It's really impossible to say who comes out on top of a battle royal like this.  Even if one guy is decisively stronger than any of the other 9, the other nine will work together to take down the big guy and then fight among themselves.

If it's a straight up DBZ kind of power levels ranking of these guys, my list would go like this:

1/2) Madara/Hashirama
3) Naruto
4) Obito
5) Nagato
6) Minato
7) Sasuke
8) Tobirama
9) Itachi
10) Kakashi

If it was my actual top ten with Madara/Hashirama being the upper limit, then I'd take out Itachi and Kakashi and replace them with Sennin Mode Kabuto and Bee.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> And yet he still has nothing to stop someone like Itachi


Uses Edo Tensei to summon 3 Hokages.



> Minato from simply having their way with him.


Minato might have a chance if he can land contract seal before Orochimaru can fully summon out his Tensei, but since Orochimaru's Edo Tensei summoning speed has improved since Part I and he has knowledge of FTG, it's going to be tough. If Edo Tensei is used than Minato is up against 3 Hokages including himself



> Edo Tensei doesn't change that. All the knowledge in the ninja world doesn't change that. All the mask is good for against a truly competent enemy is hiding Orochimaru's face when he's getting his ass ground-and-pounded so no one will recognize him when the video goes viral on WorldStar.


Trolling, okay, moving on.



> Izanagi can be outlasted by anyone with good stamina


Danzo fought MS Sasuke to a draw with just izanagi and his normal jutsu. Your underrating izanagi.



> and Kotoamatsukami is next to useless in a fight unless their are multiple enemies and they don't know about it.


Danzo Koto's someone to kill themselves, thee end.



> Danzou's Mokuton is nearly useless outside of a last-second defense .


Danzo Mokuton being useless is based on what?



> and his Fuinjutsu can be evaded like any other standard attack from someone with his speed


Sasuke is very fast and even he need warning from Obito to dodge in time



> Neither of them are even close; you still have guys like the two known Raikage and Killer B who absolutely shit on them yet may not even make the cut themselves.


The Raikage's would loose horribly against Danzo. Baku slows them down and than Danzo cuts through their Raiton shroud with Fuuton. Sandaime may survive this, but for him Izanagi respawn right into his face with Koto does the trick. 

Killer B would be tough and he could also be a contender for top 10, especially if he ever shows better usage of Samehada, but Danzo would still probably win if he used Koto well enough and there is also the issue of him having access to Bijuu suppression due to having both Uchiha & Hashirama DNA at his disposal which would allow him to even control Kyuubi according to Obito.


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## ImSerious (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> You asked and I told you, if you have no argument then dont waste my time



dont see the point of arguing with you. there is no hope for you if you actually think gaara is above minato.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> dont see the point of arguing with you. there is no hope for you if you actually think gaara is above minato.



Yet you have provided no reasonable argument otherwise, your sig is enough to make me not want to listen to you anyway


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Madara
> Nagato
> Hashirama
> Naruto
> ...



Nagato over Hashirama.  Bee and Gaara over Itachi and Tobirama.  No Minato. 

Yea I've no hope left for the naruto section. 

As for the topic, one of the s/t users probably comes out on top.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Nagato over Hashirama.


Yes healthy Nagato above Hashirama because of the Rinnegan abilities and mastery of all ninjutsu before he hit his teenage years as well as some of the highest chakra levels we have seen in the manga. Hashirama has some outstanding abilities but none that I see that can put down Nagato.



> Bee and Gaara over Itachi and Tobirama. No Minato.


Itachi, B, and Gaara were all hard to place among the three but I essentially put Itachi at the bottem because both B and Gaara have more variety in their abilities. In the end any of the people above Itachi can beat him in a fight, B has multiple modes and abilities ranging from Bijuu Bomb and his spin to sealing ink clones while Gaara can do practically anything he wants so long as he is not fighting on water. Gaara reacting to Amaterasu and stopping A in shroud also shows great showings. Susanoo is extremely taxing while the previously mentioned abilities for both B and Gaara are casual. Minato has nothing but FTG and Rasengan. Tobirama has better feats which is why he is there and Minato is not.



> Yea I've no hope left for the naruto section.


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## crystalblade13 (Aug 5, 2013)

suprise WTF bijudama is a huge plus in a giant random battle where everyone is attacking everyone.

naruto's got a good chance at this if everyones attention is split.

but hashi is likely to win too, cause of how damn hax and great at crowd control he is. them pollen flowers


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Yes healthy Nagato above Hashirama because of the Rinnegan abilities and mastery of all ninjutsu before he hit his teenage years as well as some of the highest chakra levels we have seen in the manga. Hashirama has some outstanding abilities but none that I see that can put down Nagato.
> 
> 
> Itachi, B, and Gaara were all hard to place among the three but I essentially put Itachi at the bottem because both B and Gaara have more variety in their abilities. In the end any of the people above Itachi can beat him in a fight, B has multiple modes and abilities ranging from Bijuu Bomb and his spin to sealing ink clones while Gaara can do practically anything he wants so long as he is not fighting on water. Gaara reacting to Amaterasu and stopping A in shroud also shows great showings. Susanoo is extremely taxing while the previously mentioned abilities for both B and Gaara are casual. Minato has nothing but FTG and Rasengan. Tobirama has better feats which is why he is there and Minato is not.



Like I said, I've no hope left for this section. The sheer (insert nicer word) I've seen on here and in this post alone is otherworldly.  I mean HOLY. FUCKING. SHIT.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Aug 5, 2013)

Gai solos... in base


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Madara
> Nagato
> Hashirama
> Naruto
> ...



 

This is the worst top 10 list I've ever seen.

Gaara is a part of it.

Nagato is #2.

Minato and Obito are absent.

Nagato is above Hashirama.

Gaara.

Hashirama is below Nagato.

Omg


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## Veracity (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Yes healthy Nagato above Hashirama because of the Rinnegan abilities and mastery of all ninjutsu before he hit his teenage years as well as some of the highest chakra levels we have seen in the manga. Hashirama has some outstanding abilities but none that I see that can put down Nagato.
> 
> 
> Itachi, B, and Gaara were all hard to place among the three but I essentially put Itachi at the bottem because both B and Gaara have more variety in their abilities. In the end any of the people above Itachi can beat him in a fight, B has multiple modes and abilities ranging from Bijuu Bomb and his spin to sealing ink clones while Gaara can do practically anything he wants so long as he is not fighting on water. Gaara reacting to Amaterasu and stopping A in shroud also shows great showings. Susanoo is extremely taxing while the previously mentioned abilities for both B and Gaara are casual. Minato has nothing but FTG and Rasengan. Tobirama has better feats which is why he is there and Minato is not.



How can Nagato beat Hashirama? I have seen anything like this. Lol your gonna have to explain this.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is the worst top 10 list I've ever seen.
> 
> Gaara is a part of it.
> 
> Nagato is #2.


And?



> Minato and Obito are absent.


They have no business there in the first place, base Obito has shown nothing outside of tagging Danzo's bodyguards and summoning some Kunai. Everyone I have above Minao and he have shown the reactions or intelligence to avoid being warped or abused by FTG.



> Gaara.


Beats everyone I placed below him.



Likes boss said:


> How can Nagato beat Hashirama? I have seen anything like this. Lol your gonna have to explain this.


I put Nagato above Hashirama because of the fact that he has not been shown to be bound by the same limitations that his Pain bodies had. For example he has shown no cool down in regards to ST and was shown to be able to both BT and ST at the same time. While Hashirama has large wood creations like Wood Dragon it was only about the same size as the Kyuubi which was roughly the same size as Bunta if you don’t count the tails and Bunta was the same size as Nagato’s summons. I would say not only does Nagato have the advantage in large creations but they also give him more eyes and attack with perfect teamwork as they are all basically have one consciousness. Should Nagato come into contact with any of Hashirama’s wood constructs (i.e. jumping onto them) he can suck the chakra out of it and make it useless near instantly. I don’t think that I have to go into details on the usefulness of Deva path and Asura’s abilities were leveling large portions of Konoha so it should be highly effective in pushing and destroying the Wood when necessary or pulling Hashirama. Nagato is not overpowered against base Hashirama and in fact grows stronger as the fight continues because he is sucking up chakra as Hashirama is losing it. Hashirama will have to go into SM to pull a win.

SM Hashirama is a much more difficult opponent but not impossible to put down. While I question his ability to enter SM which would give Nagato the opportunity to use CT or BT but I will assume he can. At this point he has only really shown 1000 hands Buddha whose obvious weakness would be going for the legs or simply throwing it back with CST. After this he has upgraded Wood jutsu but the chakra can still be absorbed from it to an extent. I see Nagato pulling a win more than I do Hashirama.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is the worst top 10 list I've ever seen.
> 
> Gaara is a part of it.
> 
> ...



I know right.


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

I'll be back later. I have to go get chemotherapy.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'll be back later. I have to go get chemotherapy.



You had me so scared for you for a moment before I realized you were implying that this discussion was cancer. I hope.​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> This is the worst top 10 list I've ever seen.



Here's mine:


Itachi
Kakashi
Hashirama
Kisame
Madara
Jiraiya
Gai
Mū
Nagato
Sasori


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

1. Minato
2. Durant
3. Hashirama
4. Edo Hashirama
5. Olivia Benson
6. Itachi
7. Bee
8. Human Realm (catching Jiraiya's fist, pro save of animal, etc.)
9. Obito
10. Naruto


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## Jagger (Aug 5, 2013)

Hashirama curbstomps Nagato.

Nagato hasn't shown limits in his human form? What about the face he can't walk properly or that he, unlike  Edo Madara or Naruto, he can't fight for the whole day like a crazy mad man. Nagato isn't the most brilliant out there when he was tricked by Naruto's henge jutsu and several other ones. Hashirama can pull the same with Mokuton Bunshins and even worse considering they can possible regenerate.

If Nagato sucks the chakra inside the root, Hashirama can fuel more into it and keep fighting like nothing. Besides, he can overwhelm Nagato with brute force as well. His Mokujin and Dragon jutsu should put down most of Nagato's summons, specially the bothersome dog.  He freaking handled the Kyuubi like if it was a puppy, these one are nothing.

Nagato never starts his fights with CST or CT. Unless he's in a bloodlusted state, Hashirama have a lot of chances to defeat him before it happens. If he's pushed hard enough to use SM...well...poor Nagato. CST shouldn't push Shinsuusenju that hard as it took several Bijuudama thrown in a quick sucession and it kept moving.



On a serious note, Hashirama calls Madara for help and they both steamroll Nagato.


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## Doge (Aug 5, 2013)

What kind of trash thread is this?

Just because Strategoob says "Oh em gee, Itachi is da best lolz" doesn't mean it's actually funny anymore.  He's not on Hashi, Madara, Obito, or Minato's level anymore.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Madara
> Nagato
> Hashirama
> Naruto
> ...



Madara 2 places above hashirama though he beat him in a life or death match and madara still thinks hashirama can beat him currently. Nagato being over hashirama means he should be over madara too since hashirama>madara. 

Gaara over itachi is just lol and minato nor obito not being on there above gaara is also laughable.

With all due respect i must say your tier list is 100% pure garbage.

As for the actual topic minato edges it for me since he has unmatched(in this match) reaction among the combatants and his usage with FTG is the best. Obito should last with him and with powerhouses like hashirama, naruto, madara etc blowing each up minato can just take out obito one on one in the end.


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## Veracity (Aug 5, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> And?
> 
> 
> They have no business there in the first place, base Obito has shown nothing outside of tagging Danzo's bodyguards and summoning some Kunai. Everyone I have above Minao and he have shown the reactions or intelligence to avoid being warped or abused by FTG.
> ...



You only mentioned Nagatos strengths but now even Hashirama's? You failed to bring up his wood golems that are the same size as PS, and that he an create multiple wood clones that can't be distinguished. You also failed to mention the fact that he an instantly create a forest and use his pollen tech to put anything to sleep. The fact that his wood dragons can restrain one of the strongest creatures and can absorb energy. You also didn't mention a way for Nagato to defeat his giant Buddha statue, as well as the increase SM does to a person. The SM sensing and the substantial increase to all his jutsu. Your honestly never gonna convince anybody with that post. Beating the "God of Shinobi" isn't a stunt Nagato can pull off.


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## Ennoia (Aug 5, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Hashirama curbstomps Nagato.
> 
> Nagato hasn't shown limits in his human form? What about the face he can't walk properly or that he, unlike  Edo Madara or Naruto, he can't fight for the whole day like a crazy mad man. Nagato isn't the most brilliant out there when he was tricked by Naruto's henge jutsu and several other ones. Hashirama can pull the same with Mokuton Bunshins and even worse considering they can possible regenerate.


He walked properly enough to get behind B after throwing him with ST and I was under the impression that he was in good health anyways. Considering all we have seen from the man I think its kind of lame to think he cant fight for more than a day. Mind you many people have been tricked by Naruto and Nagato did not take Deva serious and was even wanting to test the Kyuubi. Hashirama hasnt exactly been shown as cunning nor has he shown a one shot jutsu like FRS while clones can be sensed or seen with Rinnegan.



> If Nagato sucks the chakra inside the root, Hashirama can fuel more into it and keep fighting like nothing. Besides, he can overwhelm Nagato with brute force as well. His Mokujin and Dragon jutsu should put down most of Nagato's summons, specially the bothersome dog.  He freaking handled the Kyuubi like if it was a puppy, these one are nothing.


But the point is that the more he pumps in chakra the more he is basically feeding Nagato. I doubt the summons will go down easy and Nagato has shown the ability to desummon and resummon animals away from him as he did with the crab if they are in danger. You have to be clear on how he puts down the dog as well.



> Nagato never starts his fights with CST or CT. Unless he's in a bloodlusted state, Hashirama have a lot of chances to defeat him before it happens. If he's pushed hard enough to use SM...well...poor Nagato. CST shouldn't push Shinsuusenju that hard as it took several Bijuudama thrown in a quick sucession and it kept moving.


Why wouldnt it push it? The Bijuu Bombs didnt hit the statue itself it hit the arms and CST and Bijuu bombs are not the same type of attack.

If Hashirama has to go into SM to win how is it a stomp.



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Madara 2 places above hashirama though he beat him in a life or death match and madara still thinks hashirama can beat him currently. Nagato being over hashirama means he should be over madara too since hashirama>madara.
> 
> Gaara over itachi is just lol and minato nor obito not being on there above gaara is also laughable.
> 
> ...


Your opinion does not pass as fact, you have given no evidence to support yourself. Madara is given the Rinnegan and Wood Release in this situation and has shown proficiency with its use although not to the degree of Hashirama, that is why I put him above Hashirama and Nagato. He has both along with EMS which alone puts him near Hashirama and the others have one. Its not rocket science.

As I said earlier Gaara is in his position because his abilities are more versatile while Itachi has only really shown Susanoo and proficient genjutsu use. More importantly I cannot see him beating anyone above him on the list. Both Minato and Obito have one ability which can be countered by anyone on the list so it makes no sense to put them there. Unless you have actual pages that disprove what im saying it is just your opinion.



Likes boss said:


> You only mentioned Nagatos strengths but now even Hashirama's? You failed to bring up his wood golems that are the same size as PS, and that he an create multiple wood clones that can't be distinguished. You also failed to mention the fact that he an instantly create a forest and use his pollen tech to put anything to sleep. The fact that his wood dragons can restrain one of the strongest creatures and can absorb energy. You also didn't mention a way for Nagato to defeat his giant Buddha statue, as well as the increase SM does to a person. The SM sensing and the substantial increase to all his jutsu. Your honestly never gonna convince anybody with that post. Beating the "God of Shinobi" isn't a stunt Nagato can pull off.



What is PS, im not sure what that is. I only named Hashirama's notable jutsu because all the other ones can be easily dealt with. So when you say clones that are indistinguishable it dosent matter because they are still clones and they are not indistinguishable because Madara could tell them apart, the Kage did not have doujutsu. The Wood Dragon could absorb Tailed Beast energy and didnt actually restrain the the Kyuubi although isnt particularly strong as Bunta held him down even for a period. CST handles the Buddha and I said that before. Each SM has shown to be different and while it does increase the abilities of jutsu I cannot see that being to the point where Nagato cant handle it.

Im not trying to convince you that he wins because you as with most people here do not want to believe that, at the least im trying to prove that he has a shot.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

These type of fights come down to intelligence and stamina. Minato, Tobirama and Obito can hide with space-time ninjutsu but Hashirama could simply put houshi clones on all of them. Use time delayed clones so they don't realize or sense that they have clones on them. Then, he can hide his real body with mokubunshin and leave a clone to fight. 

When the guys have finished killing themselves, Hashirama would know who is left through his mokuton seeds and then come out only to fight the last man standing. Anyway you cut it, Hashirama wins because of mokuton clones hax and his stamina. Just look at what Zetsu did to the five Kages with his clones. Hashirama could do that x100


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 6, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Your opinion does not pass as fact, you have given no evidence to support yourself. Madara is given the Rinnegan and Wood Release in this situation and has shown proficiency with its use although not to the degree of Hashirama, that is why I put him above Hashirama and Nagato. He has both along with EMS which alone puts him near Hashirama and the others have one. Its not rocket science.
> 
> As I said earlier Gaara is in his position because his abilities are more versatile while Itachi has only really shown Susanoo and proficient genjutsu use. More importantly I cannot see him beating anyone above him on the list. Both Minato and Obito have one ability which can be countered by anyone on the list so it makes no sense to put them there. Unless you have actual pages that disprove what im saying it is just your opinion.



My opinion is not fact but yours is not even logical. 

Madara's feats with rinnegan show them to me. Show me what hashirama's wood jutsu cannot deal with in terms of rinnegan. Preta path cannot be used in conjunction with susanoo and he cannot attack while using preta path. Susanoo is needed to even harm hashirama so come the fuck on man. 

His wood release is a non factor damn near. Whatever wood move he use hashirama does ten times better. Sage art: Gate of the great God and Sage art: Thousand hand buddha makes madara mokuton look like weak piss. EMS madara with control over the kyuubi was near hashirama not EMS madara alone whatever.

Gaara's only ability is sand manipulation and you compare him to one of the most versatile shinobi itachi. Fire and crow jutsu to block LOS, generic genjutsu through his eyes and fingers, clone feints, amaterasu, tsukyomi, susanoo with yata mirror and totsuka blade+susanoo sword(which easily cut through kimimaro bones empowered with sage chakra while gaara could not even crush normal kimi's bones) and yasaka magatama which pierce his sand defense seeing as madara's separate mini magatama's could pierce onoki AND gaara defense.

Looking at the analysis above you tell me who got more to work with. Gaara's notable feats with versatility is flight, clone feints, contact sensing, and field manipulation. He is not messing with itachi in battle i'm afraid. 

People defending against minato shunshin which is faster than tobirama, hashirama and hiruzen? Counter towards minato or his clone tagging a opponent giving them a mark of death? Counters towards a BFR which happens instantly? Instant attacks can be defended against now? Yeah okay.

Obito can phase through 99% of the attacks of the guys on your list. Summon the gedo mazo for extra firepower, warp people away with one touch and your are lucky he does not have his edo paths.

I would have gotten scans but anybody can tell i am not making this up including you. I know you stubbornly stick to your ranking so whateves...it is wrong though.


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## Octavian (Aug 6, 2013)

whoever still thinks nagato is on hashirama's level or above should pick up another manga


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> My opinion is not fact but yours is not even logical.
> 
> Madara's feats with rinnegan show them to me. Show me what hashirama's wood jutsu cannot deal with in terms of rinnegan. Preta path cannot be used in conjunction with susanoo and he cannot attack while using preta path. Susanoo is needed to even harm hashirama so come the fuck on man.


And here you go again with your wrong opinions. Preta path was shown not to be able to absorb Jinton all the way when used with Susanoo and Madara specifically said he could not absorb Jinton all the way, Jinton is an advanced jutsu not to be compared with other ninjutsu to say he cannot absorb it. Unless of course you have proof of this. Madara has also shown to use BT and with the same logic ST. Those abilities alone give him the edge needed to beat Hashirama.



> His wood release is a non factor damn near. Whatever wood move he use hashirama does ten times better. Sage art: Gate of the great God and Sage art: Thousand hand buddha makes madara mokuton look like weak piss. EMS madara with control over the kyuubi was near hashirama not EMS madara alone whatever.


It is unclear to what extent Hashirama would be able to use his jutsu better than Madara but Madara would also be able to use Wood Clones as well s merge into the wood and take advantage of the wood that Hashirama would be producing. When Madara lost control of the Kyuubi Hashirama was still in Sage Mode and fought him to near a standstill and lost at the final blow.



> Gaara's only ability is sand manipulation and you compare him to one of the most versatile shinobi itachi. Fire and crow jutsu to block LOS, generic genjutsu through his eyes and fingers, clone feints, amaterasu, tsukyomi, susanoo with yata mirror and totsuka blade+susanoo sword(which easily cut through kimimaro bones empowered with sage chakra while gaara could not even crush normal kimi's bones) and yasaka magatama which pierce his sand defense seeing as madara's separate mini magatama's could pierce onoki AND gaara defense.


Sand>fire and he has more sand than Itachi can produce fire, Tsukuyomi needs eyesight, no one has been caught in that since Kakashi, Susanoo cannot be maintained for long periods of time as I mentioned before and Gaara does all of his feats casually. You think Totsuka can cut through Kimimaro's bones and pre-ts Gaara has no business here as his father said his strength with sand grew tremendously as well as being about to block 5 Susanoo blades so your argument is invalid. Yasaka Magatama was defended against by Gaara using regular sand not gourd sand so again your argument is invalid.



> Looking at the analysis above you tell me who got more to work with. Gaara's notable feats with versatility is flight, clone feints, contact sensing, and field manipulation. He is not messing with itachi in battle i'm afraid.


You basically listed off MS jutsu which are in no way as versatile as Gaara's sand. You left out raining sand, using the ground people stand on as a weapon, sand tsunami, restraining his opponents, sealing his opponents, and more while again doing this casually. Gaara can literally do almost anything with his sand you can think of and do it easily.



> People defending against minato shunshin which is faster than tobirama, hashirama and hiruzen? Counter towards minato or his clone tagging a opponent giving them a mark of death? Counters towards a BFR which happens instantly? Instant attacks can be defended against now? Yeah okay.


Except Tobirama grabbed Obito's black ball before Minato could from a farther distance so Tobirama must have faster reactions. B reacted to Minato's FTG so there is no reason that anyone on the list cannot follow his Body Flicker or react to FTG as well given their feats. Not to say they beat Minato easily but I see all of them winning. Minato cannot BFR anyone because he dosent have a kunai prepped miles away.



> Obito can phase through 99% of the attacks of the guys on your list. Summon the gedo mazo for extra firepower, warp people away with one touch and your are lucky he does not have his edo paths.


I left out Gedo because it dosent make sense for both him and Nagato to have it and if anything it was originally Nagato's. If we add in Gedo then Obito might make the list.


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## Veracity (Aug 6, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> He walked properly enough to get behind B after throwing him with ST and I was under the impression that he was in good health anyways. Considering all we have seen from the man I think its kind of lame to think he cant fight for more than a day. Mind you many people have been tricked by Naruto and Nagato did not take Deva serious and was even wanting to test the Kyuubi. Hashirama hasnt exactly been shown as cunning nor has he shown a one shot jutsu like FRS while clones can be sensed or seen with Rinnegan.
> 
> 
> But the point is that the more he pumps in chakra the more he is basically feeding Nagato. I doubt the summons will go down easy and Nagato has shown the ability to desummon and resummon animals away from him as he did with the crab if they are in danger. You have to be clear on how he puts down the dog as well.
> ...



Perfect Sussano which is implied to be a wood golems equal. Mind you, Hashirama has the chakra to create more of the. Clones aren't clones, lets put Madara into perspective. He used wood clones(Hashirama's own technique) to create 25 powerful Sussano clones that pressured the hell out of the 5 Kage. If Hashirama created 15 wood golems(or wood structures) Nagato isn't just wiping the floor with the creatures. Hashis wood golem alone has the strentgh speed and durability to point blank catch a freaking nine tailed blast. It also had the strength to catch a a Sussano sword that casually tears a mountain range to bits. Mind you, a full powered CT, barely manages to do this. On top of this, he can make 5 extra hand of equal power.

- just because Madara with the EMS could distinguish his clones(through years of countless battling) doesn't mean Nagato can. Even if he could, this doesn't mean he can handle the sheer scale and powered his wood style. He's bound to get messed up sooner or later, especially with his ST interval.

- the wood dragon was completely restraining the Kyuubi before Madara and his Sussano intervened. It has the power to overwhelm all of Nagatos cute summonings. And a wood golem to the dragons back and it can solo half of the Naruto verse. Bunta was summoned many meters above Kuramas head, and used his momentum and massive weight to hold him for a really short period of time. 

CST isn't doing shit to the Buddha statue. The same statue who took the combined explosions of 9 Nine tailed BD'a with PS swords through them. If 8K Naruto broke out of this Justu then the statue(which is literally 10's of times stronger then the full Kyuubi) isn't even going to budge. You must not understand how big this feeaking Justu is. Also, Hashirama could just hide inside a wood golem and then use it's strentgh to effortlessly bust open CT.

- of course each sage has it's own ability enhancements, but it's agreed that SM ups your Abilities dramatically. Look at Base Naruto compared to SM Naruto.
Look at base Jirayia compared to SM Jirayia. Lets not even into Kabutk lol.

- you still need to come up with a counter to wood golems, Buddha statue, and his pollen tech.If he chooses to lace his wood golem in pollen, what will Nagato do?


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 6, 2013)

The top ten list should include:

Without a doubt:
Hashirama
Madara
Obito
Naruto
Nagato
Kabuto
Minato
Tobirama
Sasuke


The remaining person(damn theres a big gap):
Killer Bee - ???? - At least has the firepower and stamina to to put up a fight before he gets stomped

Runner ups:
Itachi - Basically going to need to turtle to survive anything
Mu - Stands no chance of winning but should be realitivly stealthy and could suprise someone with jinton
Danzo - Is basically going to stall for 10mins before he dies
Current Orochimaru - Has hashi cells but thats about it


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 6, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I think Kakashi could pull it off too. He's very similar to Itachi in skill, though less extreme in certain areas like genjutsu, seals, weapons, etc. He's very slippery when he wants to be.​



Thats true, Kakashi and Itachi are very similar in that regard. Kakashi sneaking up on Kakuzu was pretty cool.

But the reason why I'd always place Itachi above Kakashi is not because I think he is superior in some of the basics like genjutsu, speed, seals, weapons etc, but because of Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu and Susano'o, his diversity in his MS techniques.  Especially Susano'o because It prevents Itachi from getting walked over by strong powerhouses. 

No matter how haxxed Kamui is, it is LOS dependant like Amaterasu and is somewhat avoidable. 
If A and Kakashi were pitted against each other, A would undoubtedly win. He'd just circle around Kakashi and take his head off .Susano'O on the other hand eleminates such possibility and is a better defensive measure than Kamui against characters like A, Jins, other beastly shinobi.


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 6, 2013)

On second thought Mu takes this

Goes stealth, creates some distance from the chaos and waits for the others to get relativly close to each other then unleashes all his chakra into one big ass jinton


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## Jagger (Aug 6, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> On second thought Mu takes this
> 
> Goes stealth, creates some distance from the chaos and waits for the others to get relativly close to each other then unleashes all his chakra into one big ass jinton


And he's randomly hit by a Bijuudama thrown by Naruto or a PS slash by Madara.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 6, 2013)

The fightings going to start and Madara and Hashirama are going to accidentally KO everyone else in the vicinity.


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 6, 2013)

Well I wasn't thinking and voted Obito because I was thinking of the current Juubito. If I had actually read the description I would have voted Hashirama. Is it not still speculative if Hashirama is 2nd or 3rd though? Madara has a lot of new abilities since their last mach.


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Perfect Sussano which is implied to be a wood golems equal. Mind you, Hashirama has the chakra to create more of the. Clones aren't clones, lets put Madara into perspective. He used wood clones(Hashirama's own technique) to create 25 powerful Sussano clones that pressured the hell out of the 5 Kage. If Hashirama created 15 wood golems(or wood structures) Nagato isn't just wiping the floor with the creatures. Hashis wood golem alone has the strentgh speed and durability to point blank catch a freaking nine tailed blast. It also had the strength to catch a a Sussano sword that casually tears a mountain range to bits. Mind you, a full powered CT, barely manages to do this. On top of this, he can make 5 extra hand of equal power.


The problem with this is that Madara was capable of doing that after being augmented by Hashirama's DNA which is known to increase stamina. It's unclear exactly how many clones Madara or Hashirama can create and still be able to fight properly; for example Hashirama used 5 clones and when one approached Madara he took it out while sitting down and Hashirama looked to be having a time with the Juubi clones so I dont think he will be abusing clones. Mind you the clones were not in SM despite Hashirama being in SM. Wood Golems are only the size of boss summons (which Nagato can casually throw) and there is no indication that Hashirama can spam them, catching a Bijuu Bomb that didnt go off is not a big deal even B stopped the Juubi's for a little while and caught the Kyuubi's inside of Naruto's mind if it counts for anything. Its unclear exactly how he stopped that swords destruction the only thing I can lend it to is that he stopped it mid swing.



> - just because Madara with the EMS could distinguish his clones(through years of countless battling) doesn't mean Nagato can. Even if he could, this doesn't mean he can handle the sheer scale and powered his wood style. He's bound to get messed up sooner or later, especially with his ST interval.


His ST has not shown an interval, he both pulled Naruto and pushed the huge boulder at the same time. Considering Rinnegan is the highest form of Sharingan I see no reason why Madara would be capable of seeing something Nagato cant when Nagato pretty much mastered his Rinnegan a decade ago.



> - the wood dragon was completely restraining the Kyuubi before Madara and his Sussano intervened. It has the power to overwhelm all of Nagatos cute summonings. And a wood golem to the dragons back and it can solo half of the Naruto verse. Bunta was summoned many meters above Kuramas head, and used his momentum and massive weight to hold him for a really short period of time.


It was not restraining the Kyuubi it only wrapped around him, the Centipede can do the same thing, the Dragon dosent really have any feats just size. I would not say Bunta was summoned many meters above him either and you can see Bunta holding the Kyuubi's arm, it is hard for Bunta to hold anything (Shukaku fight) but my point is Kyuubi was held down and has like no strength feats.



> CST isn't doing shit to the Buddha statue. The same statue who took the combined explosions of 9 Nine tailed BD'a with PS swords through them. If 8K Naruto broke out of this Justu then the statue(which is literally 10's of times stronger then the full Kyuubi) isn't even going to budge. You must not understand how big this feeaking Justu is. Also, Hashirama could just hide inside a wood golem and then use it's strentgh to effortlessly bust open CT.


It didnt tank those attacks because Madara was using them to destroy the arms that were coming at him; if Nagato can casually throw boss summons then why wouldnt his strongest push affect the statue. Deva said he was capable of making a larger CT so while it wouldnt stop the golem it could be an effective counter considering this is Nagato himself.



> - of course each sage has it's own ability enhancements, but it's agreed that SM ups your Abilities dramatically. Look at Base Naruto compared to SM Naruto.
> Look at base Jirayia compared to SM Jirayia. Lets not even into Kabutk lol.


Yes of course im not denying that.



> - you still need to come up with a counter to wood golems, Buddha statue, and his pollen tech.If he chooses to lace his wood golem in pollen, what will Nagato do?


Wood Golems are tossed with ST or destroyed with Asura, Buddha statue is tossed with CST or partially destroyed with CT, pollen tech is countered with CT or flight. Mind you Nagato casually threw his CT when he was fighting the trio. What counter does Hashirama have for the dog?


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## Augustus Haugerud (Aug 6, 2013)

By the way, what's up with the "best ninja" at the end. Strongest doesn't mean best. Madara is obviously stronger than Itachi, but I think Itachi is a better ninja. 

A huge enormous LOL at some of these votes though. Minato and Itachi? Yeah they have some hax abilities but Hashirama and Madara are the closest non-jinchuriki ninjas we have to that "godly level". Of course I guess I think the majority of these votes are wrong, just some I find worse than others.


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## Veracity (Aug 6, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> The problem with this is that Madara was capable of doing that after being augmented by Hashirama's DNA which is known to increase stamina. It's unclear exactly how many clones Madara or Hashirama can create and still be able to fight properly; for example Hashirama used 5 clones and when one approached Madara he took it out while sitting down and Hashirama looked to be having a time with the Juubi clones so I dont think he will be abusing clones. Mind you the clones were not in SM despite Hashirama being in SM. Wood Golems are only the size of boss summons (which Nagato can casually throw) and there is no indication that Hashirama can spam them, catching a Bijuu Bomb that didnt go off is not a big deal even B stopped the Juubi's for a little while and caught the Kyuubi's inside of Naruto's mind if it counts for anything. Its unclear exactly how he stopped that swords destruction the only thing I can lend it to is that he stopped it mid swing.
> 
> 
> His ST has not shown an interval, he both pulled Naruto and pushed the huge boulder at the same time. Considering Rinnegan is the highest form of Sharingan I see no reason why Madara would be capable of seeing something Nagato cant when Nagato pretty much mastered his Rinnegan a decade ago.
> ...



- It's still Hashirama's Justu and he still can utilize it on a greatest scale then Madara. Adding Hashiarams DNA doesn't amplify his usage of clones, it allows him to be able to do so considering he couldn't otherwise. And Hashirama was able to create a buttload of clones even after he was focusing 95% of his attention on 2 different barriers restraining he 10 tails. This is also the reason his clones were weaker, he has simply focusing his chakra on a very powerful barrier. And getting your clones destroyed by Sussano Madara doesn't make them weak. The 5 Kage had tons of trouble defeating one. Especially considering Hashirama is Madara's prone motive.

- His wood Golem was the size of Madara PS in the new chapter. It's also indicated that its PS's equal. Hense them charging towards each other in a linear fashion(Chidori vs Resengan;equals at the time) So basically, Wood Golem can defeat Nagato on its own. Just like it's come to a general agreement that PS would end Nagato. Just because the wood golem isn't as big as you would like it to be(to quote on quote not be effected) doesn't mean it's going to be thrown around like a doll. It's simply a much more powerful creation then a summoning. 6k Naruto resisted a ST without much problem. Kurama>6K Naruto. PS is stated to be as strong as Kurama(feats wise it's much stronger) and Wood Golem=PS. 

BD's are indicated to be extremely heavy. So catching something that's as fast as a FRS(but way heavier) and point blank is an impressive feat. On top of this, you have to take into consideration that after the BD was fired, Hashi had the speed to create the wood golem, then make it catch the BD mid battle

You recall how a simple swing from PS, destroyed an entire mountain range? Nagto may have one feat that can even get close to equaling that(CT) His wood arms intercepted a similar sword swing. That means that the palms of the hands have the speed and durability to catch a mountain range buster. Something Nagato doesn't have the firepower to stop. BTW he can summon 5 of these, and the only reason The Kyuubi had the ability to cut these arms was because it targeted a weak point(wrists), then again Nagato doesn't have the firepower to to casually destroy mountain ranges.

- I guess your right about that part. But not having an interval isn't going to save him considering he got hit by Amaterasu, a lariat, and Totsuka sword. Which aren't high speed attacks, especially Bee's lariat and Totsuka sword. And I suppose Itachis Amatarau isn't instant like Sasukes.

- Was stated to have completely stopped the Kyuubi in a past battle. Completely wrested down BM Naruto(for a sec) and would have completely  stopped the Kyuubi a second time if it wasn't for Madara. So restraining Bunta shouldn't be a problem. I think it's safe to assume that we can easily use BM Naruto feats for the Kyuubi. Considering its using 50% of its chakra(including the Jin>Bjuii myth)

- it still took the combined force of 9 100% Kyuubi(re read BM Naruto chapters) with PS swords(mountain busters) and still had several hands left to brutalize PS. Nagato even with the aid of his strongest CT isn't even close to the total of destruction the statue took. 

- Wood Golems tank ST(wood face structure tanked 100% BD)
- Buddha Statue tanks CST
- Hashirama coats his wood golem in his pollen tech, so whenever Nagato closes in, he's screwed over. Or he creates a forest, and laces everything in pollen.
-Nagato rarely flies
-he puts the dog to sleep.

I sorta forgot about Hashirama's regen, SM sensing, and Kage level Genjustu.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 6, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> And here you go again with your wrong opinions. Preta path was shown not to be able to absorb Jinton all the way when used with Susanoo and Madara specifically said he could not absorb Jinton all the way, Jinton is an advanced jutsu not to be compared with other ninjutsu to say he cannot absorb it. Unless of course you have proof of this. Madara has also shown to use BT and with the same logic ST. Those abilities alone give him the edge needed to beat Hashirama.



What are you talking about? Jinton hit madara and his clones because jinton spawned to fast before he could deactivate susanoo to use preta path. He could absorb it just fine as long as he did not have susanoo on at the same time arm.

What i am saying is madara absorbing the chakra out of hashirama's wood jutsu(at best) will not allow him to beat him and he cannot attack while using preta path. No preta path= madara gets smashed because his susanoo is fodder to it.

How do you know he used BT? When he dragged down those meteors he formed three hand signs two coming form his susanoo. That is not a required step for BT so i think it was a different jutsu. Bring some better evidence. Oh and describe how deva path is endgame for hashi. Hobi defense, rashomon, using mokuton to anchor himself are all counters towards deva path.




> It is unclear to what extent Hashirama would be able to use his jutsu better than Madara but Madara would also be able to use Wood Clones as well s merge into the wood and take advantage of the wood that Hashirama would be producing. When Madara lost control of the Kyuubi Hashirama was still in Sage Mode and fought him to near a standstill and lost at the final blow.



What? Mokuton is a non-factor against the king of wood release. Madara make 25 wood clones? Hashirama makes 25 wood clones. Madara merge with a tree? Hashirama merge with a tree. Madara mokuton is a non factor, hashirama's wood>susanoo and hashirama>madara.

He was in sage mode but he left his buddha statue which was already fucked up and nearly out of arms. Hashirama's sage mode was deactivated when the final clash happened. Link removed




> Sand>fire and he has more sand than Itachi can produce fire,



The point of the sand is too block LOS to set up more tricks and moves which itachi has shown to do. Unless gaara's sand eye is watching itachi be like 10 moves ahead by the time the fireball goes away.



> Tsukuyomi needs eyesight, no one has been caught in that since Kakashi,



I know it needs eyesight so um yeah? Killer bee got caught in itachi's normal genjutsu and manipulated despite being a perfect jin...image if it was tsukyomi which must be activated the same way. 
Link removed
Link removed

Kabuto had to cover his eyes completely because he was afraid of itachi's tsukyomi...not to mention he had sage mode sensing. Gaara does not have a way to read itachi as well as kabuto does(SM sensing) so not making eye contact is easier said than done. I do think that gaara can muster it though...it will just hinder his fighting ability abit. 



> Susanoo cannot be maintained for long periods of time as I mentioned before and Gaara does all of his feats casually. You think Totsuka can cut through Kimimaro's bones and pre-ts Gaara has no business here as his father said his strength with sand grew tremendously as well as being about to block 5 Susanoo blades so your argument is invalid. Yasaka Magatama was defended against by Gaara using regular sand not gourd sand so again your argument is invalid.



Susanoo does not have to stay up for a super long time considering it has one shot techs that end matches fast especially when used on people his tier. Totsuka did not cut through kimi's SAGE CHAKRA EMPOWERED bones his generic susanoo sword did.
Link removed
Link removed
So imagine what totsuka would do though it fodderized orochimaru 8 headed hydra already.

Gaara did grow alot stronger but the point was me showing the feats for itachi's susanoo sword. He blocked those 5 swords barely but he was tired so i will give him that. His gourd sand is up there but the normal sand he manipulate is mass amounts is not. You got me with the yasaka magatama point too but keep in mind his gourd sand cannot be used in mass amounts.






> You basically listed off MS jutsu which are in no way as versatile as Gaara's sand. You left out raining sand, using the ground people stand on as a weapon, sand tsunami, restraining his opponents, sealing his opponents, and more while again doing this casually. Gaara can literally do almost anything with his sand you can think of and do it easily.



Raining sand is used as a distraction main and the strongest version was blocked by a casual gold shield...i would not be surprised if itachi could simply avoid that and susanoo can just shrug it off. I mentioned using the ground people stand on and sand tsunami it falls under field manipulation. he has only sealed people after they gave up(fourth kazekage) or after people did the work for him(naruto defeating muu) so that working on itachi as long as he is alive is close to zero. Only way gaara is hitting itachi in susanoo is by using sand around his feet.




> Except Tobirama grabbed Obito's black ball before Minato could from a farther distance so Tobirama must have faster reactions. B reacted to Minato's FTG so there is no reason that anyone on the list cannot follow his Body Flicker or react to FTG as well given their feats. Not to say they beat Minato easily but I see all of them winning. Minato cannot BFR anyone because he dosent have a kunai prepped miles away.



Interception feats do not count as speed feats. Tobirama coming from who knows how far a distance before grabbing the ball cannot be quantified. For all we know he saw the black ball attached from minato from a distance and started moving over there before minato noticed. If that was the case it would not be a impressive speed feat. Tobirama reactions are up there but he has no feats of reacting to A V2 speed with little knowledge and obito's kamui mid warp. Minato took a glancing blow from juubito and warped away while tobirama got ripped in 2 head on.

Bee did not react to FTG because you cannot react to instant. Minato came up and announced his attack giving bee time to set up a counter attack. Show me bee reacted to FTG assaults like these.
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed





> I left out Gedo because it dosent make sense for both him and Nagato to have it and if anything it was originally Nagato's. If we add in Gedo then Obito might make the list.



Gedo mazo is for all intents and purposes obito's power...it is the power of anyone with senju and uchiha DNA if we go by what madara said. Link removed

Not to mention obito has the feats of summoning it.


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> - It's still Hashirama's Justu and he still can utilize it on a greatest scale then Madara. Adding Hashiarams DNA doesn't amplify his usage of clones, it allows him to be able to do so considering he couldn't otherwise. And Hashirama was able to create a buttload of clones even after he was focusing 95% of his attention on 2 different barriers restraining he 10 tails. This is also the reason his clones were weaker, he has simply focusing his chakra on a very powerful barrier. And getting your clones destroyed by Sussano Madara doesn't make them weak. The 5 Kage had tons of trouble defeating one. Especially considering Hashirama is Madara's prone motive.
> 
> - His wood Golem was the size of Madara PS in the new chapter. It's also indicated that its PS's equal. Hense them charging towards each other in a linear fashion(Chidori vs Resengan;equals at the time) So basically, Wood Golem can defeat Nagato on its own. Just like it's come to a general agreement that PS would end Nagato. Just because the wood golem isn't as big as you would like it to be(to quote on quote not be effected) doesn't mean it's going to be thrown around like a doll. It's simply a much more powerful creation then a summoning. 6k Naruto resisted a ST without much problem. Kurama>6K Naruto. PS is stated to be as strong as Kurama(feats wise it's much stronger) and Wood Golem=PS.
> 
> ...



-Hashirama's DNA gives a stamina/chakra boost this has been shown many times throughout the manga with Danzo, Oro taking over Zetsu's body so it would allow him to create more clones. Creating clones disperses the chakra evenly among all the bodies there is nothing to suggest that Hashirama's clones were at 1% of his original strength. But my point is that if Madara was capable of taking out a 20% clone while sitting down as well as the clones having poor showings then against another top tier Hashirama isnt likely to spam clones. Madara creating multiple clones is not a show for Hashirama because Madara was amped up.

-If I gather this right then your saying because Madara's PS can (in your opinion) defeat Nagato that the Golem should be able to as well because they are equals despite the two serving different purposes the same way Chidori may work in one situation but Rasengan wouldnt. Deva casually tossed a summon the size of the Golem miles away from his real body yet the Golem with few feats is going to resist being pushed by Nagato himself? Kurama's abilities arnt exactly transferable to the Golem or PS because theyre are different beings and it was said that when in a host the beasts power can be more directed so six tailed Naruto at that point was stronger than six tailed Kurama.

-Naruto was pushing B's Bujuu Bomb through the barrier so I question the weight of those things, not to mention not all of them move at FRS speed considering B intercepted the Juubi's from quite a distance away. It was fast but nothing Nagato cant handle considering he reacted to FRS as well.

-But Hashirama didnt stop a mountain slashing swing because he stopped it midway. To add to this Hashirama predicted what Madara was going to do so it was less of a reaction feat. If we look at the page where Kyuubi destroys the other hands he also destroys the hands that stopped that swing implying there was nothing Hashirama could do about it or he would have caught that too. Basically stopping that sword is no big deal and personally I think Nagato could deflect it.

-He was hit by Amaterasu because Edo is designed to react to the enemies attacks (Edo Kage said this) and Nagato didnt perceive Itachi as an enemy. Being hit by B and Totsuka are poor showings on Kabuto's behalf because Nagato has reacted to far worse. I still wonder how he was hit by Totsuka.

-Im confused here how you came to 9 100% Kyuubi but the PS swords only increased the cutting power. Considering Deva miles away was capable of leveling Konoha which is many mountains wide I do think Nagato is capable of doing better. Consider this, Katsuya is only as large as the building directly infront of the Kage's faces.

-The face did not tank 100% BD because the BD went off a distance away and infront of his Golem's hand. Nor was there evidence that it was the most powerful BD because he fired it off quickly and those typically need prep time.
-Buddha survives CST I dont think its tanking it
-Going to need evidence of this
-When he sees the ground being flooded with trees flight is an option
-He can only put to sleep Bijuu as Wood style is meant to suppress Bijuu.
-Regen is questionable as we havent seen it in action, you have to show me he can sense in SM, and Nagato mastered Yin/Yang at like 14 so I dont think Genjutsu is a problem.


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## Ennoia (Aug 6, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> What are you talking about? Jinton hit madara and his clones because jinton spawned to fast before he could deactivate susanoo to use preta path. He could absorb it just fine as long as he did not have susanoo on at the same time _destroy_.
> 
> What i am saying is madara absorbing the chakra out of hashirama's wood jutsu(at best) will not allow him to beat him and he cannot attack while using preta path. No preta path= madara gets smashed because his susanoo is fodder to it.
> 
> How do you know he used BT? When he dragged down those meteors he formed three hand signs two coming form his susanoo. That is not a required step for BT so i think it was a different jutsu. Bring some better evidence. Oh and describe how deva path is endgame for hashi. Hobi defense, rashomon, using mokuton to anchor himself are all counters towards deva path.


Madara can absorb Jinton fine when Susanoo is not active, when Susanoo is active he has trouble absorbing Jinton not all ninjutsu in general, that is my point. Nothing indicates that he cannot use Susanoo and absorb Suiton or Katon. Where do you get the idea that he cannot attack while using Preta when Nagato was capable of using multiple paths at once?

Its clear he used BT because he had the Rinnegan active and the Rinnegan grants the user 6 abilities with only BT/ST being the logical deduction of abilities that he used. I should not even have to prove this considering Madara has already shown to be knowledgeable on Rinnegan and its paths. Im not saying Rinnegan alone takes this for Madara im saying in conjunction with Madara's other abilities that puts him nearly on par with Hiashirama it should give him the edge. You said Madara with the Kyuubi is on par with Hashirama but even after Madara lost the Kyuubi he still had to fight SM Hashirama and he fought him down to one final blow.



> What? Mokuton is a non-factor against the king of wood release. Madara make 25 wood clones? Hashirama makes 25 wood clones. Madara merge with a tree? Hashirama merge with a tree. Madara mokuton is a non factor, hashirama's wood>susanoo and hashirama>madara.


Madara's Mokuton in conjunction with the abilities he already has, you cannot single out his abilities you have to look at it as a whole. You also have to remember that Madara gained a stamina boost when he had Hashirama's cells put in him as well. If Madara is close to Hashirama without these things how can you say he dosent surpass Hashirama with a handful of new jutsu. You're asking me for specifics but I cannot give you them as we did not see their fight.



> He was in sage mode but he left his buddha statue which was already fucked up and nearly out of arms. Hashirama's sage mode was deactivated when the final clash happened. _destroy_


Exactly my point, he had to force Hashirama out of SM as Hashirama was in SM when Madara lost the Kyuubi.



> The point of the sand is too block LOS to set up more tricks and moves which itachi has shown to do. Unless gaara's sand eye is watching itachi be like 10 moves ahead by the time the fireball goes away.


Gaara uses his sand for various purposes its not limited to distractions.



> I know it needs eyesight so um yeah? Killer bee got caught in itachi's normal genjutsu and manipulated despite being a perfect jin...image if it was tsukyomi which must be activated the same way.
> _destroy_
> _destroy_
> 
> ...


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 6, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Madara can absorb Jinton fine when Susanoo is not active, when Susanoo is active he has trouble absorbing Jinton not all ninjutsu in general, that is my point. Nothing indicates that he cannot use Susanoo and absorb Suiton or Katon. Where do you get the idea that he cannot attack while using Preta when Nagato was capable of using multiple paths at once?



So if preta path absorbs all chakra that comes in contact with the barrier wouldn't susanoo get absorbed to. I think it would be counter-productive to do that. Yeah let me modify the idea a little...basically i was saying he could not attack with susanoo while using preta because it would absorb the susanoo around him. So he still has to chose between susanoo or preta path yeah?



> Its clear he used BT because he had the Rinnegan active and the Rinnegan grants the user 6 abilities with only BT/ST being the logical deduction of abilities that he used.



Well it ain't that cut and dry dude...i see how you can draw that conclusion. The thing that leaves me skeptical is that his susanoo(a EMS technique) forms handseals with madara while does but BT does not need any of that. It seems like madara is jumping in a whole new bag when he bring down meteors.



> I should not even have to prove this considering Madara has already shown to be knowledgeable on Rinnegan and its paths. Im not saying Rinnegan alone takes this for Madara im saying in conjunction with Madara's other abilities that puts him nearly on par with Hiashirama it should give him the edge. You said Madara with the Kyuubi is on par with Hashirama but even after Madara lost the Kyuubi he still had to fight SM Hashirama and he fought him down to one final blow.



Well without the feats to back all this up it becomes kinda hard to swallow y'know. The kyuubi was a power that is seemingly replace with madara's current wood release and rinnegan. If you take away kyuubi(that let on hashi's level before) you get a weak ass madara. Adding something to make him strong again does not mean he instantly jump past hashi. Madara with all his buffs still thinks hashi can be so come on think about. Even if you give madara all nagato feats what do you think it will accomplish? Animal path? After dealing with kyuubi it would be a sneeze. Human path is close range and that is hard when fighting on megazords like these guys. Deva path is pretty much the only thing that will make a difference. 

SM hashirama without his SM buddha jutsu. They could have just done taijutsu/low level jutsu off panel since they were tired. Hashi not using his buddha strengthen this.




> Madara's Mokuton in conjunction with the abilities he already has, you cannot single out his abilities you have to look at it as a whole. You also have to remember that Madara gained a stamina boost when he had Hashirama's cells put in him as well. If Madara is close to Hashirama without these things how can you say he dosent surpass Hashirama with a handful of new jutsu. You're asking me for specifics but I cannot give you them as we did not see their fight.



As a whole it just means he can copy most of hashi's jutsu outside of SM i believe. Even in the latest chapter when hashi summon wood dragon/human madara summon the PS so i do not think madara would use his mokuton to counter hashi's. The reason(i guess) is because there is no point...none of base hashirama's mokuton being used against him will be a table tilting difference. Madara was close with 100% kyuubi remember that. Just because he gets new toys to compensate for that loss does not mean he leaps past hashi though looking at it on paper make it seems like he has.




> Exactly my point, he had to force Hashirama out of SM as Hashirama was in SM when Madara lost the Kyuubi.



SM hashirama was already panting while the buddha was up and it was destroyed when SM hashi jumped off it. Madara might have not had to deal with a tired SM hashi for long.




> Gaara uses his sand for various purposes its not limited to distractions.



Whoops i am so sorry i was meaning to refer to itachi's katons.



> I know it needs eyesight so um yeah? Killer bee got caught in itachi's normal genjutsu and manipulated despite being a perfect jin...image if it was tsukyomi which must be activated the same way.
> not seen
> not seen
> 
> ...



We i speak of itachi in the NBD i usually envision him getting healed after every hypothetical match...if i was judging him off a continuous career as a shinobi then it would be different. Basically he can use his MS to max efficiency in every match.

Multiple high tiers have also praised his eyes and hyped his genjutsu as one slip up=done. I am just stressing the point that if anyone(not just gaara) was to look in itachi eyes then he/she is done. Gaara's sand can be countered by overwhelming speed, really sharp piercing attacks, overwhelming strength, oil like substances and space time ninjutsu. There are counters to his defense. As for his offense...well shields and dodging works just fine.





> Ill give you that, when you said Kimimaro I was thinking of the actual guy trying to figure out what you were talking about but I forgot that scene. But Gaara has a lot more gourd sand than you are giving him credit for.



But his gourd sand will never compare to an entire desert worth of normal sand...against attacks like FTG, Bijuudama etc his gourd sand would be not be all that hot.




> It can be used as a distraction but given the nature of the jutsu its clear that it can also be used as an effective means of attack.



Well at best it can restrain someone when it connects but as for seriously injuring/killing people...nah.



> You're getting specific again, Gaara almost sealed the Mizukage himself as well as Madara even though he had help but in every situation he was facing an extremely hard opponent. The point is to show that Gaara's sand is capable of far more than Itachi's Susanoo.



Well not to be specific but mizukage kinda gave up too seeing as he was ecstatic that gaara was sealing them. He had to get forced on auto pilot to do something. Gaara's sand is more versatile than itachi's susanoo but not more versatile as itachi as a whole. Therefore gaara is not more versatile than itachi.




> Oh ho ho I disagree my good man. Tobirama was not seen in the immedate area when Minato began reaching for the ball so he had to have gotten from point A to point B before Minato could while Minato was closer, showing that he was either faster or had better reactions. Regardless of where Tobirama came from he was further away than Minato from that ball but reached it first, thats all that matters.



Ugh the best you can get from the scene is that tobirama was faster in that particular scenario and it is not that great since at first minato did not know it was there. I'm sure you can agree minato is a faster shinobi overall giving his speed feats sprinkled all throughout the manga that are more impressive than tobirama's.




> In every instance you have shown Minato has to actually thrust his kunai, when Minato teleported to A's back B pushed A before Minato could thrust the kunai and from a further distance than Minato had to move his arm. If anything this implies that B has faster reactions than Minato. Even if you dont agree that B reacted to Minato being on his own back you cannot deny this.



Well intercepting a guy who is not going after you is easier than intercept someone going straight for you i believe. Neji was able to intercept the wood stake that was about to kill naruto but he is not faster than naruto. B has very high reactions but when A the fastest man in the world is amazed that a guy was the first to dodge his top speed punch then i think you can call that guy king of reactions(minato).




> Im not denying that he can use it, im just saying my own preference. If they both used it in this fight who would get it? I just personally chose Nagato.



Well i guess that is just you...but even if he cannot use it against nagato(according to you) if he used it against other then he would certainly make any top ten list...though i think he can make it without it.


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> So if preta path absorbs all chakra that comes in contact with the barrier wouldn't susanoo get absorbed to. I think it would be counter-productive to do that. Yeah let me modify the idea a little...basically i was saying he could not attack with susanoo while using preta because it would absorb the susanoo around him. So he still has to chose between susanoo or preta path yeah?


Yea I would agree.



> Just because he gets new toys to compensate for that loss does not mean he leaps past hashi though looking at it on paper make it seems like he has.
> 
> SM hashirama was already panting while the buddha was up and it was destroyed when SM hashi jumped off it. Madara might have not had to deal with a tired SM hashi for long.


I understand what you mean and how a person could think Hashirama is still superior because of feats vs assumptions on this one, I cant really debate that; id rather go with the hype in this situation though.



> We i speak of itachi in the NBD i usually envision him getting healed after every hypothetical match...if i was judging him off a continuous career as a shinobi then it would be different. Basically he can use his MS to max efficiency in every match.
> 
> Multiple high tiers have also praised his eyes and hyped his genjutsu as one slip up=done. I am just stressing the point that if anyone(not just gaara) was to look in itachi eyes then he/she is done. Gaara's sand can be countered by overwhelming speed, really sharp piercing attacks, overwhelming strength, oil like substances and space time ninjutsu. There are counters to his defense. As for his offense...well shields and dodging works just fine.



But you have to think of it as IC as well and IC Itachi is aware of the dangers of MS and is less likely to use them. Not to say he is going to die before using it but one would think he would only use MS in the worst case scenario. On the other hand Gaara is capable of doing just about everything Itachi can except Genjutsu quite casually. For example Itachi's only long range Ninjutsu comes from Susanoo and he only has a handful of shown ninjutsu but is mostly famed for his Genjutsu and intelligence.

Gaara's gourd sand caught some of the fastest things in the manga so speed is not an issue and has not been pierced since Sasuke pre-ts while it has shown massive upgrades in durability. It stopped v2 A and was capable of stopping multiple explosions including Deidara's attack on the village so it will take a lot of strength. Im willing to concede oil (though I would debate it under the right circumstances) but not necessarily S/T ninjutsu because it depends on the variant. I should also say that most of the things you named can be counters to almost all ninja abilities but only the best in these areas can give Gaara a hard time.



> But his gourd sand will never compare to an entire desert worth of normal sand...against attacks like FTG, Bijuudama etc his gourd sand would be not be all that hot.
> 
> Well at best it can restrain someone when it connects but as for seriously injuring/killing people...nah.


Bijuudama yes, im not sure how FTG is a problem though. Restraining leads to Desert Coffin as well.



> Gaara's sand is more versatile than itachi's susanoo but not more versatile as itachi as a whole. Therefore gaara is not more versatile than itachi.


How so? If you take away Susanoo (or MS in general) Itachi has very few showings as far as feats. 



> Ugh the best you can get from the scene is that tobirama was faster in that particular scenario and it is not that great since at first minato did not know it was there. I'm sure you can agree minato is a faster shinobi overall giving his speed feats sprinkled all throughout the manga that are more impressive than tobirama's.


If it were not for Tobirama outright saying Minato was faster when they got to the Juubi battlefield I would whole-heartedly believe he is faster based on that one feat.



> Well intercepting a guy who is not going after you is easier than intercept someone going straight for you i believe. Neji was able to intercept the wood stake that was about to kill naruto but he is not faster than naruto. B has very high reactions but when A the fastest man in the world is amazed that a guy was the first to dodge his top speed punch then i think you can call that guy king of reactions(minato).


Depends on the circumstances, but in almost any situation if you get from point A to point B before the other person then you can be considered faster. B pushed A before Minato could move his arm, I would say his reactions are faster. If we said Minato wasnt serious or B predicted it or something something it would be a different story but you cant predict FTG you have to react after the person appears. Minato reacted as soon as he appeared and B reacted as soon as he appeared, B was just faster.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> First off I disagree with your top 10. There is no way Itachi and Kakashi should be Top 10. Even Tobirama and EMS Sasuke i'm not sure, since right now while they've both shown great abilities they still need to show more before I consider them top 10. As for who the actual top 10 are certainly Rikudo deserves one of the spots taken up by the above characters. Besides him Kabuto, Danzo, and Orochimaru are all more qualified than Itachi & Kakashi, while it's debatable in the case of Tobirama & EMS Sasuke since they are still accumulating feats. However even than we have other contenders like Kushina, Mito, Elder/Younger Son, White Fang, Prime Hanzo, Prime Onoki, Izuna, Prime Hiruzen, etc... who might qualify. So I'm not sure a top 10 list can be made right now. Unless were talking strictly in terms of shown feats:
> 
> Rikudo, Hashirama, Madara, Minato, Obito, Nagato, Naruto, Kabuto, Orochimaru, & Danzo; in no specific order.
> 
> ...



Danzo didn't seem that strong to me tbh.  
I am unsure if I would put him up there.  

Kakashi belongs nowhere near this list though, that is for sure.


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## Deshi Basara (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> If it were not for Tobirama outright saying Minato was faster when they got to the Juubi battlefield I would whole-heartedly believe he is faster based on that one feat.



*You can clearly see that the ball was having effect on Minato and restraining his movements.Tobirama had the advantage of swooping in, while previously unaffected.





			Depends on the circumstances, but in almost any situation if you get from point A to point B before the other person then you can be considered faster. B pushed A before Minato could move his arm, I would say his reactions are faster. If we said Minato wasnt serious or B predicted it or something something it would be a different story but you cant predict FTG you have to react after the person appears. Minato reacted as soon as he appeared and B reacted as soon as he appeared, B was just faster.
		
Click to expand...


That was just the equivalent of Gaara intercepting Ei's kick and Sasuke's enton.In fact, it was practically the same.

I don't know how you can honestly think that, in any other situation, Bee would be able to react to Minato going for the kill with Hirashin, when Obito with his sharingan and instantaneous Kamui could not, twice in a row:

(2)
(2)

Not to mention than even NOW, when Obito is at the highest possible spot-at the top of the food chain, he continues to get trolled by Hirashin, again, and again, and again.....



Also, Bee trembled when he heard Minato's name from Naruto.There's a reason for that.



Besides, Ei was pretty much stated to have better reactions than Minato, and is MUCH faster than his brother, yet he couldn't do shit to save himself, yet he still thought of himself as inferior and Minato as unsurpassable.

*


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> You can clearly see that the ball was having effect on Minato and restraining his movements.Tobirama had the advantage of swooping in, while previously unaffected.


What you call clear I cannot see at all. Minato showed in no way that the ball hindered him, he did not show pain (as I dont think any edo has), and his movements were not shown to be restricted. He did not even know it was stuck to him so how was it hindering his abilities in anyway? If you can provide proof of this please do.



> That was just the equivalent of Gaara intercepting Ei's kick and Sasuke's enton.In fact, it was practically the same.


And thats exactly why I believe that Gaara's sand is faster than both Enton and v2 A (some people say A was falling but he crossed the same amount of distance as Enton did implying they are close to the same speed); its the same exact situation.



> I don't know how you can honestly think that, in any other situation, Bee would be able to react to Minato going for the kill with Hirashin, when Obito with his sharingan and instantaneous Kamui could not, twice in a row:
> 
> show him the MS
> show him the MS
> ...


I could probably come up with legit reasons why Obito didnt react each time he was hit with it but the overall point is that he didnt react and B did. Instead of comparing Obito to B it makes more sense for you to disprove B's feat or B>Obito in reactions for the sake of this thread.



> Also, Bee trembled when he heard Minato's name from Naruto.There's a reason for that.


Although I dont remember this and dont feel like going back and looking, that dosent necessarily mean Minato>B or anything else. Perhaps Minato>B but my point is he has not shown anything that would suggest such so im going to stick with that here.



> Besides, Ei was pretty much stated to have better reactions than Minato, and is MUCH faster than his brother, yet he couldn't do shit to save himself, yet he still thought of himself as inferior and Minato as unsurpassable.


Current feats imply B>A (I should say this is my opinion) but the feats speak for themselves man. You're basically trying to tell me the page never happened.


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## Deshi Basara (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> What you call clear I cannot see at all. Minato showed in no way that the ball hindered him, he did not show pain (as I dont think any edo has), and his movements were not shown to be restricted. He did not even know it was stuck to him so how was it hindering his abilities in anyway? If you can provide proof of this please do.
> 
> 
> And thats exactly why I believe that Gaara's sand is faster than both Enton and v2 A (some people say A was falling but he crossed the same amount of distance as Enton did implying they are close to the same speed); its the same exact situation.
> ...



*http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/641/3

Minato looks like he's trying his hardest and still can't reach it in time.Sasuke and Naruto aren't trying to escape or anything, so obviously it had some kind effect on them.





"Gaara's sand is faster than both Enton and v2 A"

"for you to disprove B's feat or B>Obito in reactions for the sake of this thread."

"B>A (I should say this is my opinion) but the feats speak for themselves man."

"Perhaps Minato>B but my point is he has not shown anything that would suggest such so im going to stick with that here."


.............................................................................................


Gaara's sand doesn't have anywhere near the amount of hype and speed feats that Ei's V2 and Enton do.

Bee doesn't have anywhere near the hype and reaction/speed feats of his brother or Obito of all f'n people.

What you are referring to are 2 circumstantial feats meant to show that someone viewing a fight between two people from the sidelines, has better chance of reacting, nothing more. 


.......................................................................................
Ok, so you are either flat out trolling, or are pretty stupid.Either way discussing this further with you, won't result in anything productive.*


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> *http://www.mangapanda.com/naruto/641/3
> 
> Minato looks like he's trying his hardest and still can't reach it in time.Sasuke and Naruto aren't trying to escape or anything, so obviously it had some kind effect on them.*


*
Thats my point, he is trying his hardest and Tobirama still got there before him, you have not proven anything.





			Gaara's sand doesn't have anywhere near the amount of hype and speed feats that Ei's V2 and Enton do.
		
Click to expand...

Except Gaara's sand intercepted a bloodlusted Sasuke using Enton and a bloodlusted A using his strongest attack in v2. In order for the sand to have intercepted both it would have had to reach A and Enton before either of them collided which proves that the sand is faster. 

show him the MS
There is no sand in this panel, for the sand to get in position while A and Enton are that close is a Garralicious speed feat. If you can give me one logical reason why this does not show Sand>Enton then you have no argument, basing your opinion because it wasnt shown to be fast by hype when we have actual pages makes no sense.




			Bee doesn't have anywhere near the hype and reaction/speed feats of his brother or Obito of all f'n people.
		
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Its the other way around, Obito has not shown the reactions/speed feats that puts him on B's level. B reacted to FTG and Obito didnt, you cannot disprove this and I would love to see you try.




			What you are referring to are 2 circumstantial feats meant to show that someone viewing a fight between two people from the sidelines, has better chance of reacting, nothing more.
		
Click to expand...

Seeing something and intercepting something are two different matters totally. Regardless of whether or not I am watching someone shoot another person or I am the person being shot in order to get to that bullet I would need to be faster than said bullet. Tobirama was nowhere near Minato when he reached for that ball, Gaara was nowhere near A and Sasuke when his sand was shown intercepting them, common sense tells us that those people would need to be faster to pull off those feats.




			Ok, so you are either flat out trolling, or are pretty stupid.Either way discussing this further with you, won't result in anything productive.
		
Click to expand...

And yet the best you can do is comparing one person to another which proves nothing. You cannot give me one logical reason why what im saying is wrong. You are just stubbornly sticking to your beliefs despite the manga telling you otherwise so in all actuality you are the reason this wont result in anything productive. Prove why B pushing A is not one of the best reaction feats in the manga and prove why Gaara intercepting Enton does not make his sand faster than Enton.*


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## Deshi Basara (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Thats my point, he is trying his hardest and Tobirama still got there before him, you have not proven anything.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



*WOW, gotta admire that stubbornness, whatever born of stupidity or thrust for trolling.

As i said, Minato was shown struggling to get to it, and Naruto and Sasuke could not escape because they were being effected by the ball.

I don't see what i gotta prove when Tobirama himself thinks that Minato is faster than him.Obviously you are wrong.


"Manga's telling me otherwise"


Is that why Gaara's sand is supposed to be faster than Enton and Ei, and yet doesn't have better feats and hype than the one?

Bee is faster/has better reactions than his brother and Obito, yet he couldn't do shit to Obito, and did not show speeds "faster than the sharingan could see" against a weakened Sasuke?

For you to be taken seriously by not just myself, but anyone else, you have to explain exactly why Bee and Gaara don't have any other single feat or hype that implies them to be at the level you are putting em on.


Yes, Obito failed against Hirashin, but he didn't have the advantage of sitting on the sidelines.

Plus, he has the sharingan and Kamui is instantaneous, if you are trying to tell me that Bee's tentacle is faster than Kamui, then you are basically being a troll.





			Seeing something and intercepting something are two different matters totally. Regardless of whether or not I am watching someone shoot another person or I am the person being shot in order to get to that bullet I would need to be faster than said bullet. Tobirama was nowhere near Minato when he reached for that ball, Gaara was nowhere near A and Sasuke when his sand was shown intercepting them, common sense tells us that those people would need to be faster to pull off those feats.
		
Click to expand...



You are shooting yourself in the foot by bringing Tobirama again, when he is admittedly slower than Minato.

As for your bullet example, Kishi obviously doesn't care about that kind of logic.

*


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

Deshi Basara said:


> WOW, gotta admire that stubbornness, whatever born of stupidity or thrust for trolling.
> 
> As i said, Minato was shown struggling to get to it, and Naruto and Sasuke could not escape because they were being effected by the ball.
> 
> I don't see what i gotta prove when Tobirama himself thinks that Minato is faster than him.Obviously you are wrong.


I didnt say Tobirama was faster I said he had faster reactions, you have no evidence that the black ball in anyway slowed anyone down and considering I have asked you multiple times for evidence that you cannot provide im going to assume you have none and not address this point again 



> Gaara's sand is faster than Enton and Ei, and yet doesn't have better feats than the one?


Yet he does because he caught both, again I have asked you multiple times for proof which you cannot provide so im going to assume you have none and not address this point again.



> Bee is faster/has better reactions than his brother and Obito, yet he couldn't do shit to Obito, and did not show speeds "faster than the sharingan could see" against a weakened Sasuke?


I did not say B was faster than A I said he might have better reactions than his brother but he does have better reactions than Minato, my links prove this and you're telling me they dont because you dont want them to 



> For you to be taken seriously by not just myself, but anyone else, you have to explain exactly why Bee and Gaara don't have any other single feat or hype that implies them to be at the level you are putting em on.


So you want me to explain why Kishi does certain things in his plot despite the outright evidence of them performing their feats. Yea, no. 



> Yes, Obito failed against Hirashin, but he didn't have the advantage of sitting on the sidelines.


Dosent even make sense given the situations.



> Plus, his Kamui is instantaneous, if you are trying to tell me that Bee's tentacle is faster than Kamui, that you are basically of being a troll.


Obito has to consciously use Kamui so in order to hit him before he uses Kamui you have to be able to attack him before he can react hence Minato>Obito in reactions based on feats while B>Minato based on feats. One could argue that Obito was not paying attention and was focused on using his Kamui on Minato or that he was in pain the second time but the point stands as it is. So no, instead of trying to put words in my mouth try to comprehend what im saying, B has some of the best reactions in the manga based on feats.


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## Deshi Basara (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> I didnt say Tobirama was faster I said he had faster reactions, you have no evidence that the black ball in anyway slowed anyone down and considering I have asked you multiple times for evidence that you cannot provide im going to assume you have none and not address this point again



How many times do i have to repeat myself:

"As i said, Minato was shown struggling to get to it, and Naruto and Sasuke could not escape because they were being effected by the ball."


What other reason could there be when the slower Tobirama managed to get to it, first?



> Yet he does because he caught both, again I have asked you multiple times for proof which you cannot provide so im going to assume you have none and not address this point again.




If you can't provide any other feats and hype for it, than you are admitting of being a circumstantial feat.



> I did not say B was faster than A I said he might have better reactions than his brother but he does have better reactions than Minato, my links prove this and you're telling me they dont because you dont want them to




Why is Ei the only one hyped as having greater reactions than Minato (and that still didn't save him)?

Why did Bee tremble in fear upon hearing Minato's name?

Why did Ei view Minato as someone who couldn't be surpassed?



I told you why your examples don't make sense and don't prove what you are trying to sell.



> So you want me to explain why Kishi does certain things in his plot despite the outright evidence of them performing their feats. Yea, no.



The 2 feats you are referring to, indeed do exist, it's your interpretation that is wrong, supported by the lack of hype and more feats.




> Obito has to consciously use Kamui so in order to hit him before he uses Kamui you have to be able to attack him before he can react hence Minato>Obito in reactions based on feats while B>Minato based on feats. One could argue that Obito was not paying attention and was focused on using his Kamui on Minato or that he was in pain the second time but the point stands as it is. So no, instead of trying to put words in my mouth try to comprehend what im saying, B has some of the best reactions in the manga based on feats.




"One could argue", you mean stupid people?I could also come up with dumb explanations like that, like Minato was taking his time and was slower than usual with his kunai strike against Ei.Or he didn't really want to kill him, or etc

Plus, Obito clearly reacted and knew the rasengan was coming, he screamed "SHIT, he teleported to the kunai"  immediately before the rasengan hit him.If Minato's movements after Hirashin are so slow, why didn't Obito have time for Kamui?


And what is Obito's excuse in the last chapter, when Naruto basically warned him that he's coming, and Obito saw him and Tobirama disappear?


But Bee's feat did indeed happen, it just doesn't mean that much.


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

Im not about to entertain you man, you're just dismissing feats because you dont like them. Minato being surpassed has no bearing on his reactions, B "trembling" in no way shows his reactions, feats>hype. Its not point in debating with someone that dismisses the manga.


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## Deshi Basara (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Im not about to entertain you man, you're just dismissing feats because you dont like them. Minato being surpassed has no bearing on his reactions, B "trembling" in no way shows his reactions, feats>hype. Its not point in debating with someone that dismisses the manga.



*It's not me dismissing feats, it's you blowing out of proportion something that Kishi barely gave a thought to while drawing it.

And how can Ei view Minato as unsurpassable, if his brother can react and counter Minato's best technique in any given situation, as you are trying to imply?

Bee has no reason to tremble, just by hearing Minato's name, if he can react and counter him so easily.*


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi can layer genjutsus all over the battlefield and control characters to kill eachother off... I choose Itachi since it's a free for all and he can cause mad confusion with illusions.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Yea I would agree.



Yesh.




> I understand what you mean and how a person could think Hashirama is still superior because of feats vs assumptions on this one, I cant really debate that; id rather go with the hype in this situation though.



Oh okay...we will see what the future holds i guess.





> But you have to think of it as IC as well and IC Itachi is aware of the dangers of MS and is less likely to use them. Not to say he is going to die before using it but one would think he would only use MS in the worst case scenario. On the other hand Gaara is capable of doing just about everything Itachi can except Genjutsu quite casually. For example Itachi's only long range Ninjutsu comes from Susanoo and he only has a handful of shown ninjutsu but is mostly famed for his Genjutsu and intelligence.



He is aware of the dangers of MS and will not be MS happy and that is the point of his eyes having one shot techniques. Gaara has more stamina so he can throw stuff around a lot and do big casual feats true but itachi like you said shines with intelligence and genjutsu oneshots(though amaterasu a ninjutsu can work if use properly). Let us not forget about potential totsuka blade sealing. Gaara has more casual use of his sand according to feats but itachi has more special hax and one shots.



> Gaara's gourd sand caught some of the fastest things in the manga so speed is not an issue and has not been pierced since Sasuke pre-ts while it has shown massive upgrades in durability.



Hmm okay..but do you really think it is like invincible? Do you think the thrid raikages one finger could not get through? It pierced the body of a man of could fight with the eight tails straight up with ease. Or how about kakashi's lighting blade with can cut V2 jinchuriki shrouds with ease?



> It stopped v2 A and was capable of stopping multiple explosions including Deidara's attack on the village so it will take a lot of strength.



But what about gedo mazo level strength which could easily breakdown a mountain of earth? I do not think C3 or joki boy can compare to such feats. 



> Im willing to concede oil (though I would debate it under the right circumstances) but not necessarily S/T ninjutsu because it depends on the variant. I should also say that most of the things you named can be counters to almost all ninja abilities but only the best in these areas can give Gaara a hard time.



I only said oil because of the mizukage vs gaara fight. But why not all S/T jutsu? Kamui can warp it into another dimension or use the dimension to bypass and FTG can warp it to another location as long as minato touches and have tags somewhere.






> im not sure how FTG is a problem though. Restraining leads to Desert Coffin as well.



Because it gets warp to another location where a FTG kunai is as long as it is touching minato or his chakra bro. Desert coffin could come after restraining but if the person warp away, breaks the restraints with a technique it not happening. Gaara's desert pyramid was destroyed by a joki boy explosion and in the top ten character there are moves stronger than that.




> How so? If you take away Susanoo (or MS in general) Itachi has very few showings as far as feats.



Without MS he has exploding clones, shadow clones, crow clones, crow genjutsu, finger genjutsu, top tier kunai/shuriken jutsu, water ninjutsu, fire ninjutsu, izanami and maybe some other stuff. That is alot to work with in terms in versatility though it would not win him a fight with top ten characters. His MS adds totsuka blade, amaterasu, tsukyomi, yasaka magatama and a susanoo sword. Gaara has alot but itachi is up there too dude.


If it were not for Tobirama outright saying Minato was faster when they got to the Juubi battlefield I would whole-heartedly believe he is faster based on that one feat.

WHAT? Dude reacting to tobi stabbing at naruto in mid air and grabbing without getting hit? Reacting to Kamui mid warp? Dodging A full speed with no knowledge? Not to mention many of naruto KCM/BM speed feats being compared to minato's speed. Tobirama did good with his saving feat but what else does he really have. No one has wanked his reactions and speed as much as they have minato's yet you think he is faster off that. That's something dude.




> Depends on the circumstances, but in almost any situation if you get from point A to point B before the other person then you can be considered faster.



Yeah but there are things wrong with this(or at least wrong with this). Kushina jumped in the way of kurama's claw but i am sure he is faster. Kakashi jumped in and stopped sasuke but i am sure sasuke is faster. Jugo nailed bee before bee could stop him but bee is faster than him. Suigetsu block A but A is way faster than him. C'mon son.



> B pushed A before Minato could move his arm, I would say his reactions are faster. If we said Minato wasnt serious or B predicted it or something something it would be a different story but you cant predict FTG you have to react after the person appears. Minato reacted as soon as he appeared and B reacted as soon as he appeared, B was just faster.



Bee most likely started to move as soon as the kunai flew towards A so when minato came up he just had to continue pushing A out the way making minato hit him instead. He would not have to react to minato if he acted before minato warped because he knew minato would come up at that kunai by A. Minato did have a reputation for using that technique after all. I took it as him intercepting the kunai therefore barely saving A and getting by minato at the same time. When minato saved the alliance from the juubidama bee did not even realize what saved him(no one did) so that would mean minato was faster than him.

At best you could say that characters are faster than certain characters at times but it should be accepted that minato is faster than everyone besides current obito.


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## Ennoia (Aug 8, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> He is aware of the dangers of MS and will not be MS happy and that is the point of his eyes having one shot techniques. Gaara has more stamina so he can throw stuff around a lot and do big casual feats true but itachi like you said shines with intelligence and genjutsu oneshots(though amaterasu a ninjutsu can work if use properly). Let us not forget about potential totsuka blade sealing. Gaara has more casual use of his sand according to feats but itachi has more special hax and one shots.


Yes exactly, but those one shots are practically useless against most high tiers especially given his stamina issues. He can beat a lot of people without MS, he can beat a lot more with MS, but I cannot see him beating the people in my top 10 (except maybe Tobirama) because MS is almost useless and he has a limited arsenal outside of MS consisting of kunai, clones, basic ninjutsu, and genjutsu (referring to the later part of your post on Itachi's abilities but to save space I put it here).



> Hmm okay..but do you really think it is like invincible? Do you think the thrid raikages one finger could not get through? It pierced the body of a man of could fight with the eight tails straight up with ease. Or how about kakashi's lighting blade with can cut V2 jinchuriki shrouds with ease?
> 
> But what about gedo mazo level strength which could easily breakdown a mountain of earth? I do not think C3 or joki boy can compare to such feats.


Of course not those two, but not many people have piercing and strength feats on a high level besides SM Naruto and maybe Tsunade/Sakura and the only thing that has been compared to the Raikage's fingers is Raikiri although I question exactly how Kakashi cut those arms. Regardless, these people are at the top in regards to strength and piercing power. Not to say that Gaara cant lose to someone without those specific skillsets but id be hard pressed to find someone thats not a top tier that could beat him.



> I only said oil because of the mizukage vs gaara fight.


I would say oil is his weakness too but because of the large amount of sand at his disposal there would also need to be a large amount of oil. Mizukage was a special case because he produced the oil so Gaara couldnt restrain him like he does to all of his opponents. So while I would say oil is his weakness it would take more than oil to put him down.



> But why not all S/T jutsu? Kamui can warp it into another dimension or use the dimension to bypass and FTG can warp it to another location as long as minato touches and have tags somewhere.
> 
> Because it gets warp to another location where a FTG kunai is as long as it is touching minato or his chakra bro. Desert coffin could come after restraining but if the person warp away, breaks the restraints with a technique it not happening. Gaara's desert pyramid was destroyed by a joki boy explosion and in the top ten character there are moves stronger than that.



I would say yes to Kamui because it requires almost no prep but not so much to FTG because that is dependent on him having a kunai prepped a distance away and it is not easy for Minato to teleport large objects. Touching Gaara's sand is almost suicide as well and he has almost an infinite amount. It would be nearly impossible for Minato to use standard FTG because Gaara could bury his kunai when he scatters them and he cant place a seal on sand with no form.

Raikage needed shroud to break Gaara's regular sand and Joki Boy destroyed Gaara's regular sand, considering the Kazekage and Mizukage could not get out on physical power its safe to say not many ninja have the physical strength to get out. FTG is again useless because there would be no kunai to teleport to.



> WHAT? Dude reacting to tobi stabbing at naruto in mid air and grabbing without getting hit? Reacting to Kamui mid warp? Dodging A full speed with no knowledge? Not to mention many of naruto KCM/BM speed feats being compared to minato's speed. Tobirama did good with his saving feat but what else does he really have. No one has wanked his reactions and speed as much as they have minato's yet you think he is faster off that. That's something dude.


Precisely because there is nothing to the contrary of that feat is why I believe it. The feat exists and that is nothing that contradicts it so why ignore it? Tobirama was surprised that Minato was faster than him so why is it a shock that Tobirama might have faster reactions?



> Yeah but there are things wrong with this(or at least wrong with this). Kushina jumped in the way of kurama's claw but i am sure he is faster. Kakashi jumped in and stopped sasuke but i am sure sasuke is faster. Jugo nailed bee before bee could stop him but bee is faster than him. Suigetsu block A but A is way faster than him. C'mon son.


Kushina was way closer to Naruto than the Kyuubi was so she does not need to be faster to get in position, im not sure of the Kakashi part but Kakashi being faster than Sasuke is highly plausible, Jugo hit B because he was fighting Sasuke and Suigetsu, and Suigetsu is questionable for a number of reasons that might drag out this post if I went into it. But for the most part when I said it depends on the circumstances I mean that the people have to be an equal distance apart like with your Kushina example; she was right next to Naruto where as the Kyuubi had to cross a further distance.



> Bee most likely started to move as soon as the kunai flew towards A so when minato came up he just had to continue pushing A out the way making minato hit him instead. He would not have to react to minato if he acted before minato warped because he knew minato would come up at that kunai by A. Minato did have a reputation for using that technique after all. I took it as him intercepting the kunai therefore barely saving A and getting by minato at the same time. When minato saved the alliance from the juubidama bee did not even realize what saved him(no one did) so that would mean minato was faster than him.
> 
> At best you could say that characters are faster than certain characters at times but it should be accepted that minato is faster than everyone besides current obito.


No one knew that Minato could teleport to kunai this is evident when A prepares to hit him when he teleports the second time but he didnt go to the kunai he went to B. With this in mind B could not have been aiming for A prior to Minato landing on his back. This is further shown in the panels when we only see B's tentacle moving after Minato appears showing he did not move until Minato appeared.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 8, 2013)

1. Hashirama
2. Madara
3. Obito (prior to becoming a Jin)
4. Prime Nagato (GM and Pein Rikudou)
5. Current Naruto
6. EMS Sasuke/Living Itachi/SM Kabuto
7. Minato/Tobirama


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 8, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Yes exactly, but those one shots are practically useless against most high tiers especially given his stamina issues.



Against high tiers? Why? Tsunade, kisame, onoki, danzo, orochimaru and gaara are some off the top of my head that would be done in by tsukyomi, totsuka blade etc. His stamina is enough that he can use amaterasu 2 times after using tsukyomi and then susanoo as a last resort...all while planning to lose. If he was going for the kill it would be nothing like his match with hebi sasuke.



> He can beat a lot of people without MS, he can beat a lot more with MS,



He cannot beat high-high tiers without his MS imo...even certain mid high tiers would give him problems without it.



> but I cannot see him beating the people in my top 10 (except maybe Tobirama)



Tobirama is almost anti MS due to his moveset and is well versed in knowledge on the MS and even beat his arch nemesis who wielded one. Sensing for amaterasu, extensive knowledge and experience for tsukyomi and FTG for quick movements that the MS cannot keep up with.

In your top ten the only one i would really fear for is gaara when it comes to genjutsu/tsukyomi. He could count on third eye+sand sensing+sand sphere in the air...then he would have a chance.



> because MS is almost useless and he has a limited arsenal outside of MS consisting of kunai, clones, basic ninjutsu, and genjutsu (referring to the later part of your post on Itachi's abilities but to save space I put it here).



That is not limited though...it is a lot to work with though it would not be killing people outright. MS is very useful why do you think just because people are high tiers they are immune to it.





> Of course not those two, but not many people have piercing and strength feats on a high level besides SM Naruto and maybe Tsunade/Sakura



Well besides gedo mazo, tsunade, SM naruto and sakura. I would reckon that sasori's iron sand could over gaara's sand since it has a higher density than gaara's sand. I also think a A with his weight increased by onoki can smash gaara's sand(it could do damage similar to tsunade's punches on madara's susanoo). There are probably more but you get.



> and the only thing that has been compared to the Raikage's fingers is Raikiri although I question exactly how Kakashi cut those arms.



do this.
That is how kakashi cut the chakra arms.

I would also like to add sasuke lighting swords being able to pierce and slice it...or any raiton covered blade for that matter.



> Regardless, these people are at the top in regards to strength and piercing power. Not to say that Gaara cant lose to someone without those specific skillsets but id be hard pressed to find someone thats not a top tier that could beat him.



Me and you have differing opinions on what is a high tier and what is a top tier i guess because the people i think can beat gaara are not top tiers.

Jiraiya with his toad army can best gaara.
Mu can beat gaara.
Onoki can beat gaara.
Itachi can beat gaara.
6 paths of pain can beat gaara.
Maybe tsunade can beat him with katsuyu.

Gaara can beat some of those guys sometime too but he is not out of there tier...the high tier.

Top tiers to me are hashirama, madara, obito, minato, Killer bee, naruto, etc. and of course they beat gaara.




> I would say oil is his weakness too but because of the large amount of sand at his disposal there would also need to be a large amount of oil.



That makes sense.



> Mizukage was a special case because he produced the oil so Gaara couldnt restrain him like he does to all of his opponents. So while I would say oil is his weakness it would take more than oil to put him down.



Well yeah that is correct it was a way around gaara's capture, crush and guard style. The second mizukage is not the only one who can weaken gaara's sand. Boss toads and jiraiya can do it too. Of course it will take more to put gaara down but that major opening in his armor cannot be ignored.





> but not so much to FTG because that is dependent on him having a kunai prepped a distance away and it is not easy for Minato to teleport large objects.



Well even in the verse minato has kunai in mountain ranges and near the sea so it is not really prep that is needed. Space time barrier comes up in front of minato and a tsunami of sand or any frontal sand attack is getting warped. 



> Touching Gaara's sand is almost suicide as well and he has almost an infinite amount.



A clone can afford a suicide attempt and warp gaara's sand. With minato being able to subtle tag obito and killer bee without them knowing immediately i would not think it impossible for minato to warp away gaara's gourd of sand or certain bodies of sand. While minato does not have unlimited stamina gaara does not either and it takes chakra for him to use those tsunamis and rapid waves of sand.



> It would be nearly impossible for Minato to use standard FTG because Gaara could bury his kunai when he scatters them and he cant place a seal on sand with no form.



Really depends on where they are fighting and how minato uses his genius. Keep in mind minato can tag a clone and have in move around giving him a way to warp around the field. Also if there are places that are not on the ground then gaara can attach his kunai there and set up FTG lv2 blitz.



> Raikage needed shroud to break Gaara's regular sand and Joki Boy destroyed Gaara's regular sand, considering the Kazekage and Mizukage could not get out on physical power its safe to say not many ninja have the physical strength to get out.



Not many ninja do but high tiers can(though not with pure strength).
onoki can change the weight of the sand making gaara unable to manipulate it and hold him.
Tsunade can use her strength to smash out of it.
orochimaru and kabuto can oral rebirth out of it.

Just to name a few.





> FTG is again useless because there would be no kunai to teleport to.



FTG level 2 to teleport to a moving kunai, or teleport to a clone or teleport to a clone in the ceiling/wall. Or teleport off the field and come back lol.




> Precisely because there is nothing to the contrary of that feat is why I believe it. The feat exists and that is nothing that contradicts it so why ignore it? Tobirama was surprised that Minato was faster than him so why is it a shock that Tobirama might have faster reactions?



The feat was tobirama jumping in and helping a minato who did not know the ball was attached to him at first. Also keep in mind minato had to reach with his arm that was further away. Tobirama's reaction did not really get hyped that exchange but more like his jutsu usage and speed was hyped. He show efficiency  but not reacting to V2 A with no knowledge type reactions.




> Kushina was way closer to Naruto than the Kyuubi was so she does not need to be faster to get in position, im not sure of the Kakashi part but Kakashi being faster than Sasuke is highly plausible, Jugo hit B because he was fighting Sasuke and Suigetsu, and Suigetsu is questionable for a number of reasons that might drag out this post if I went into it. But for the most part when I said it depends on the circumstances I mean that the people have to be an equal distance apart like with your Kushina example; she was right next to Naruto where as the Kyuubi had to cross a further distance.



*sigh* we might have to agree to disagree on this part man. I have a different criteria for how speed is displayed and should be accounted for. Not saying i think any less than you for your views but we will never see eye to eye on this.


[QUOTENo one knew that Minato could teleport to kunai this is evident when A prepares to hit him when he teleports the second time but he didnt go to the kunai he went to B. With this in mind B could not have been aiming for A prior to Minato landing on his back. This is further shown in the panels when we only see B's tentacle moving after Minato appears showing he did not move until Minato appeared.[/QUOTE]

The way that fodder nin was basically saying "It's the yellow flash lets get out of here" i think that they knew what he was about. prepares

Huh i guess i see what you mean about the the bee moving thing. Though again minato did not attack the instant he came up like he did the two times he attack obito. Hitting obito before he can use kamui is way more impressive than any speed feats bee has shown. Why you trying to dehype minato speedy status anyway?


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## Ennoia (Aug 8, 2013)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Against high tiers? Why? Tsunade, kisame, onoki, danzo, orochimaru and gaara are some off the top of my head that would be done in by tsukyomi, totsuka blade etc. His stamina is enough that he can use amaterasu 2 times after using tsukyomi and then susanoo as a last resort...all while planning to lose. If he was going for the kill it would be nothing like his match with hebi sasuke.
> 
> He cannot beat high-high tiers without his MS imo...even certain mid high tiers would give him problems without it.
> 
> ...


And I would argue that none of those abilities would be of any use against any of the people you named except for maybe Tsunade whom is a CQC fighter. But we agree that Itachi without MS is not beating most high tiers and so long as you can avoid eye contact (as most people can), Amaterasu (which most high tiers have their own counter for), and outlast Susanoo (which dosent have much feats) then you can pull a win. I would think Tobirama is better too but he just dosent have the feats so I left him last but based on this I think 9 is a fair position for Itachi, no?



> Well besides gedo mazo, tsunade, SM naruto and sakura. I would reckon that sasori's iron sand could over gaara's sand since it has a higher density than gaara's sand. I also think a A with his weight increased by onoki can smash gaara's sand(it could do damage similar to tsunade's punches on madara's susanoo). There are probably more but you get.
> 
> wipes out massive mountains.
> That is how kakashi cut the chakra arms.
> ...


There are people like that but im saying the number of people that can perform these feats are limited; and while they might have the ability to do what they do they lack other areas that let them effectively fight against someone like Gaara. Like Tsunade not having the ability to get close enough to do anything (except questionably Katsuya) and Kakashi being the same. I do remember Kakashi cutting those arms I just dont know how he cut something Kusanagi couldnt. I also would not put any Raiton on the same level because Sasuke was able to pierce A with Chidori but his Raiton sword bounced off.




> Me and you have differing opinions on what is a high tier and what is a top tier i guess because the people i think can beat gaara are not top tiers.
> 
> Jiraiya with his toad army can best gaara.
> Mu can beat gaara.
> ...


Aside from Jiraiya I would argue he beats all of the people you first named and by a decent margin. Most of the people you named second I have higher than him on my list and I should mention I almost put Mu at 10 but I forgot about Kabuto.



> Well even in the verse minato has kunai in mountain ranges and near the sea so it is not really prep that is needed. Space time barrier comes up in front of minato and a tsunami of sand or any frontal sand attack is getting warped.
> 
> A clone can afford a suicide attempt and warp gaara's sand. With minato being able to subtle tag obito and killer bee without them knowing immediately i would not think it impossible for minato to warp away gaara's gourd of sand or certain bodies of sand. While minato does not have unlimited stamina gaara does not either and it takes chakra for him to use those tsunamis and rapid waves of sand.
> 
> Really depends on where they are fighting and how minato uses his genius. Keep in mind minato can tag a clone and have in move around giving him a way to warp around the field. Also if there are places that are not on the ground then gaara can attach his kunai there and set up FTG lv2 blitz.


In order to keep this from turning into Minato vs Gaara this is another  where some of the same arguments were used.



> Not many ninja do but high tiers can(though not with pure strength).
> onoki can change the weight of the sand making gaara unable to manipulate it and hold him.
> Tsunade can use her strength to smash out of it.
> orochimaru and kabuto can oral rebirth out of it.
> ...


Thats why I dont have Gaara higher because his method of restraining can be broken out of by most of the people above him rather easily. But just as I said above some people have skill sets that allow them to get out but I feel they still lose against Gaara like all of the people you named (although the location plays a factor).



> *sigh* we might have to agree to disagree on this part man. I have a different criteria for how speed is displayed and should be accounted for. Not saying i think any less than you for your views but we will never see eye to eye on this.


Well then we just have to agree to disagree on the speed point then



> Huh i guess i see what you mean about the the bee moving thing. Though again minato did not attack the instant he came up like he did the two times he attack obito. Hitting obito before he can use kamui is way more impressive than any speed feats bee has shown. Why you trying to dehype minato speedy status anyway?


Im not, you said Minato should be above Gaara and im telling you why I think he shouldnt. I think everyone on my list is capable of beating Minato for one reason or another based on what the manga has given us and thread stipulations (Tobirama gets 20 edos) so I dont think I should put him up there.


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