# Aokiji vs Current Kaido



## Eustathios (Mar 4, 2022)

Post Yamato fight Kaido, replace Luffy with Aokiji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Geralt-Singh (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji high diff

Reactions: Like 2


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2022)

Why post Yamato fight instead of just saying 100% allout Kaido? Looks like someone is biased here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2022)

Anyway with these restrictions in place Aokiji high diffs. All out and fully fit I would say stalemate or extreme diff Aokiji.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido wins in base.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Winner 4 | Lewd 2 | Dislike 1


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## Kylo Ren (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido, extreme diff.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## KBD (Mar 4, 2022)

Ao Kiji kneels and starts preparing cold drinks for his new boss

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 18 | Winner 1


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## Corax (Mar 4, 2022)

With restrictions Aokiji for sure. This Kaido can't even use drunk mode.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2022)

KBD said:


> Ao Kiji kneels and starts preparing cold drinks for his new boss



Don't underestimate Aokiji. He effortlessly fended off all of Whitebeard's attacks and even fought 10 days against the fleet admiral.


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## Piecesis (Mar 4, 2022)

Quipchaque said:


> Don't underestimate Aokiji. He effortlessly fended off all of Whitebeard's attacks and even fought 10 days against the fleet admiral.


You're right, it took him 10 days to lose to a person that Sick WB fodderised in a couple of mins.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 6 | Funny 7 | Tier Specialist 6 | Dislike 2


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## Gabzy (Mar 4, 2022)

Kuzan extreme


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## KBD (Mar 4, 2022)

Quipchaque said:


> Don't underestimate Aokiji. He effortlessly fended off all of Whitebeard's attacks and even fought 10 days against the fleet admiral.


He is too lazy to prolong a pointless fight he would lose in the end anyways.

He will just kneel and move his shit to onigashima. Being Kaidos bartender is a better job than his last one.

Serve the sake and go home to komurasaki: open koiflix and chill

Reactions: Funny 5


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido, I'd say. Unlike Old WB, he'll be able to use Adv CoC which will actually do damage. Arguably, you can throw in Ryou since that uses similar principles. Then there's all the other craziness Kaido can do.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 4, 2022)

Post Yamato Aokiji wins.
I''d say he also wins post Luffy, maybe even post RT

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Gledania (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji take it.

Kaido took hits from 5 SN and 9 scabbards , with two of them being in sulong form.
Sulong neko/inu is are arguably > Jack.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 4, 2022)

Gledinius said:


> Sulong neko/inu is are arguably > Jack.


Arguably? They low diffed his sorry ass lol


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## Gledania (Mar 4, 2022)

Strobacaxi said:


> Arguably? They low diffed his sorry ass lol



I mean ... it wasn't a fair fight either


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## Dellinger (Mar 4, 2022)

I want to see the next couple of chapters and Kaidos condition to judge. Things aren’t looking favourable for the Admirals either way

Reactions: Winner 7 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Dunno (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji wins of course.

Reactions: Like 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 4, 2022)

Definitely Aokiji.

The Admiral downplay needs to stop. I know they're living off of it because they aren't currently present in Wano and thus have nothing to show or scale to.

However, Kuzan is a fully established top tier.

He was fully capable of matching up with an Old Whitebeard in a 1v1 encounter who could still effectively use Haki, hadn't yet started suffering heart attacks (in the War to a debilitating degree), and hadn't taken cheap shots from Akainu yet. His title/status as 1/3 of the "World Government's Greatest Military Powers" who could casually negate WB's tsunamis reinforce this. Oh, and he most likely didn't use his Awakening or go all out in Marineford due to the presence of his subordinates.

Kuzan will fight on par with any fully healthy Yonko (unless it's the bloodlusted WSM) for some time before eventually losing. Speculation of any potential gains made after the timeskip aside; put him up against a weakened Kaido and he most likely wins.

At the very least, he does better than Snakeman Luffy based on sheer common sense.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 9 | Useful 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji should win probably very-high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji extreme-diffs fresh Kaido

Ice >> dragons

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 3


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## Fel1x (Mar 4, 2022)

fresh Kaido mid-high diffs Aokiji
current Kaido high diffs

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 4, 2022)

Should these threads not be deleted or do the mods actually think this is not a bait thread?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 4, 2022)

Beast said:


> Should these threads not be deleted or do the mods actually think this is not a bait thread?


Agreed. Maybe if Kaido was on his deathbed like WB this would be a fair match for Aokiji. Very big Yonko fan bait thread.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 4


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## charles101 (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji neg diffs

Kaido is Dragon/Flying

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 6


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## Dark Knight (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido obviously. He is not losing to BB's bitch who is weaker than Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji mid-high diff.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 4, 2022)

charles101 said:


> Aokiji neg diffs
> 
> Kaido is Dragon/Flying



vs


We all know who wins this

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## Duhul10 (Mar 4, 2022)

Extreme diff either way with current Kaido if Kaido's juice actually runs out, if not, Kaido still wins. Fresh Kaido wins comfortably.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 4, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> vs
> 
> 
> We all know who wins this


yeah Ice Beam one-shots

Reactions: Funny 5 | Creative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Grinningfox (Mar 4, 2022)

Still backing Kaido

Forgive me Kuzan

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Baroxio (Mar 4, 2022)

This isn't fucking pokemon. And even if it was, the dude is basically Dragon/Fire. Kaido's ability to breathe fire with Blast Breath hard counters Aokiji's ice, especially since Donflamingo was able to escape being flash frozen just by vibrating his strings. 

Kaido wins.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Typhon (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji wins. Fresh Kaidou would need high diff to beat him. Current Kaidou catching a L

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Extravlad (Mar 4, 2022)

Make it 100% Kaido and Aokiji still wins extreme diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 6 | Winner 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 4


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 4, 2022)

Post Yamato goes either way


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## charles101 (Mar 4, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> vs
> 
> 
> We all know who wins this


He ain't no Mega without awakening. Regular Rayray won't ohko Articuno

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

I love Kuzan, but Kaido takes this decisively.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## charles101 (Mar 4, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> This isn't fucking pokemon. And even if it was, the dude is basically Dragon/Fire. Kaido's ability to breathe fire with Blast Breath hard counters Aokiji's ice, especially since Donflamingo was able to escape being flash frozen just by vibrating his strings.
> 
> Kaido wins.


Dragon Breath is literally Dragon type move. He's controlling weather. He's clearly Flying type

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji should win.


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## Amol (Mar 4, 2022)

Anyone who says Kaido wins is a troll.

Fresh Kaido vs Kuzan would be a very high diff fight. At least a high diff fight bare minimum.

Fresh Kuzan fighting Kaido who has already gone through so many fighters?

Yeah Kuzan wins with something like upper end of Mid diff.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Optimistic 1


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## charles101 (Mar 4, 2022)

Amol said:


> Anyone who says Kaido wins is a troll.
> 
> Fresh Kaido vs Kuzan would be a very high diff fight. At least a high diff fight bare minimum.
> 
> ...


I thought it's post Yamato meaning everything we've seen to this point. Not health state


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## Amol (Mar 4, 2022)

charles101 said:


> I thought it's post Yamato meaning everything we've seen to this point. Not health state


You just say all out Kaido if you want serious Kaido.

Post Yamato Kaido emphasises on Yamato part. I can't interpret it as anything but his health.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## T.D.A (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji. I think as it stands, the current Yonkou/Admirals are so close that they can’t afford to fight eachother with a handicap. If Drunk Kaido is Kaido at his best then he needs that to take Aokiji down.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaidou wasn’t that weakened before facing Luffy, as none of those attacks did much. So this minor difference won’t help Aokiji win or loose. I’m uncertain of the winner though as I wonder if Kaidou Fire would counter Aokiji ice or it would be the reverse


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Old half dead WB wrecked Akainu's shit. I'm a certain that Kaido > that version of WB. Hence even if he has been in battles and is not at full strength, I think he takes this.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido still has enough in the tank to take out aokiji extreme low diff.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2022)

Piecesis said:


> You're right, it took him 10 days to lose to a person that Sick WB fodderised in a couple of mins.



Liar. But hey guess you can't help it to cover your bias.


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Amol said:


> Anyone who says Kaido wins is a troll.
> 
> Fresh Kaido vs Kuzan would be a very high diff fight. At least a high diff fight bare minimum.
> 
> ...


Kaido wouldn’t lose mid diff. Look at what he’s doing now when he’s going all out. This would still be an extreme fight. Kaido is superior to aokiji and has the fire skills to nullify his ice attacks.


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## Piecesis (Mar 4, 2022)

Quipchaque said:


> Liar. But hey guess you can't help it to cover your bias.


Point out the lie. Also point out the biases that I'm covering up. I'll wait.


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## Orca (Mar 4, 2022)

Extravlad said:


> Make it 100% Kaido and Aokiji still wins extreme diff



I actually agree with this.

Infact, I believe that if Kaido took Hody’s energy steroids, was infused with Moria’s shadows, and was getting support from CP0 leader in the background whilst Aokiji was cuffed with seastone, had only one leg to stand on, and the day was a bit extra sunny, even then I think Aokiji wins. Should be extreme diff though. Anything less would be disrespectful to Kaido.

Reactions: Funny 6


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## convict (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji wins in a very difficult fight. Fresh Kaido wins.


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## MrPopo (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji midh-high diff


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Old half dead WB wrecked Akainu's shit. I'm a certain that Kaido > that version of WB. Hence even if he has been in battles and is not at full strength, I think he takes this.


This. This is what should be common sense.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Extravlad (Mar 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> This. This is what should be common sense.


Commonsense is that Akainu beat bloodlusted Whitebeard despite being sneak attacked

And that Akainu > Kaido because he will fight a stronger Luffy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Extravlad said:


> Commonsense is that Akainu beat bloodlusted Whitebeard despite being sneak attacked
> 
> And that Akainu > Kaido because he will fight a stronger Luffy


That’s… just wrong. WB was the one that walked away from that exchange despite going into it severely handicapped.

Your other point is just a groundless presumption that should have no place in objective powerscaling.


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## Mariko (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaidou lol diff.

Deal with it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

How is ice going to harm kaido, he is as strong as wb and even scrubs like doffy can break through and on top of that he has OP fire which can negate aokiji’s attacks. Kaido beats aokiji high diff fresh and extreme diff with a handicap.


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## JustSumGuy (Mar 4, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Old half dead WB wrecked Akainu's shit. I'm a certain that Kaido > that version of WB. Hence even if he has been in battles and is not at full strength, I think he takes this.


I’ve always thought that this was a pretty unfair stance.

You have some people defending Big Mom being sent away by Law and Kidd and saying there is an asterisk next to that win when I think the situation with Akainu is very similar. WB hits Akainu a couple of times, once when he’s not looking, creating a split in the ground in which Akainu falls into but he digs from underneath the battlefield and continues to be a fierce fighter that multiple yonko commanders are having difficulty putting down. I’d imagine that if a bloodlusted WB got the drop on Kaido or BM, a very similar situation could happen even if he was near death.

We know that a Kaido or BM are stronger than an old, near death WB but different abilities also matter. The reason why WB was able to devastate Akainu so quickly is because he still has probably the strongest offensive fruit even when near death. I’d argue that the island splitter from a near death WB is stronger than any individual attack we’ve seen from the other yonko so it’s not like they could replicate that against Akainu even if they’re overall stronger than WB.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Empathy (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji wouldn’t fail against an already tired Kaidou.


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

JustSumGuy said:


> I’ve always thought that this was a pretty unfair stance.
> 
> You have some people defending Big Mom being sent away by Law and Kidd and saying there is an asterisk next to that win when I think the situation with Akainu is very similar. WB hits Akainu a couple of times, once when he’s not looking, creating a split in the ground in which Akainu falls into but he digs from underneath the battlefield and continues to be a fierce fighter that multiple yonko commanders are having difficulty putting down. I’d imagine that if a bloodlusted WB got the drop on Kaido or BM, a very similar situation could happen even if he was near death.
> 
> We know that a Kaido or BM are stronger than an old, near death WB but different abilities also matter. The reason why WB was able to devastate Akainu so quickly is because he still has probably the strongest offensive fruit even when near death. I’d argue that the island splitter from a near death WB is stronger than any individual attack we’ve seen from the other yonko so it’s not like they could replicate that against Akainu even if they’re overall stronger than WB.


BM and kaido won’t get two shot, they are too durable. In BM’s case she would heal and put that version of WB down. WB was extremely close to death at that point with all the free hits akainu and other marines got on him.


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## shintebukuro (Mar 4, 2022)

I think people are going to be shocked at how strong all the end-game characters are.


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## spawn3 (Mar 4, 2022)

You could remove all of Kuzan's limbs and he would still win.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

shintebukuro said:


> I think people are going to be shocked at how strong all the end-game characters are.


Aokiji is end-game?


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## MrPopo (Mar 4, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Old half dead WB wrecked Akainu's shit. I'm a certain that Kaido > that version of WB. Hence even if he has been in battles and is not at full strength, I think he takes this.


You mean the strongest pirate and you forgot how Akainu was back in action 2 chapters later

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> You mean the strongest pirate and you forgot how Akainu was back in action 2 chapters later


I wonder why injuries matter when it’s kaido vs luffy but not wb vs akainu hmm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## shintebukuro (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Aokiji is end-game?



Anybody and everything being saved until the end. Even characters like Crocodile and Smoker are going to be stronger than anyone ever thought they'd be.


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## Shanks (Mar 4, 2022)

The problem is here is people trying to say Kuzan beats Luffy by giving Kuzan the win. However, it was more than clear that despite the rest, Luffy was still heavily depleted based on what Yamato said and how Oda draw Luffy "barely standing". 

That said, Kuzan should win, extreme dif though.


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## Cursemark (Mar 4, 2022)

Gledinius said:


> I mean ... it wasn't a fair fight either


They were both equal to him in base


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## JustSumGuy (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> BM and kaido won’t get two shot, they are too durable. In BM’s case she would heal and put that version of WB down. WB was extremely close to death at that point with all the free hits akainu and other marines got on him.


That’s the thing though, Akainu didn’t get two shot either lol.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 4, 2022)

Don't really see the difference between current kaido and fresh kaido, all I know is aokiji wins both.  Sakazuki who has the higher AP then kaido was trading blows with aokij


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

Using half of WB vs Akainu as a standalone argument here against Kuzan is pretty troll.


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## Gledania (Mar 4, 2022)

Cursemark said:


> They were both equal to him in base


He fought both of them in zou with both having rest time while he didn't. His endurance is way better.
In the long term he'll dominate them.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 4, 2022)

There’s nothing in the story that implies admirals>yonko except MAYBE akainu will fight Luffy. Where does this stupid shit come from?

Reactions: Like 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 4, 2022)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> There’s nothing in the story that implies admirals>yonko except MAYBE akainu will fight Luffy. Where does this stupid shit come from?


Did you see what they did to the strongest pirate during MarineFord.


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## Perrin (Mar 4, 2022)

Ice Make: Oden no Jutsu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Using half of WB vs Akainu as a standalone argument here against Kuzan is pretty troll.


Why? Wb was nerfed and hurt way more than kaido and still did really well.


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Why? Wb was nerfed and hurt way more than kaido and still did really well.


As much as I love WB, it was a sneak attack from the World's Strongest Man. When he was facing Sakazuki straight up, no single side was outdoing the other and people always ignore that. With that said, in less than a minute, WB did defeat Sakazuki, yes, but Sakazuki also took half of his head with him, which easily could kill just about anyone. That just goes to show that in a fight this level, *every clean hit counts*. As lethal as Sakazuki is, Aokiji still pushed him to extreme diff in a 10 day fight.


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## Virus (Mar 4, 2022)

Kuzan wins this fight. I can’t see Kaidos attacks having the required lethality to win against Kuzan.
Also Kaido is the typical dumb fighter lot of muacles but no brain, and Kuzan can take advantage of this.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> As much as I love WB, it was a sneak attack from the World's Strongest Man. When he was facing Sakazuki straight up, no single side was outdoing the other and people always ignore that. With that said, in less than a minute, WB did defeat Sakazuki, yes, but Sakazuki also took half of his head with him, which easily could kill just about anyone. That just goes to show that in a fight this level, *every clean hit counts*. As lethal as Sakazuki is, Aokiji still pushed him to extreme diff in a 10 day fight.


Yea but it’s a wsm with bad coo, coa and no adcoc. Akainu was lucky. Someone like kaido with FS,speed and high durability would simply do better in that situation.


Aokiji has ice to stall akainu, he’s literally ice where as WB is a just a strong human so akainu is more lethal to someone like wb.


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Yea but it’s a wsm with bad coo, coa and no adcoc. Akainu was lucky. Someone like kaido with FS,speed and high durability would simply do better in that situation.
> 
> 
> Aokiji has ice to stall akainu, he’s literally ice where as WB is a just a strong human so akainu is more lethal to someone like wb.


I don't know about that. CoO, he was able to react to all 3 Admirals, including Kizaru. CoA, I don't see how you could come to that conclusion while acknowledging the beatdown that he put on Sakazuki. AdCoC is questionable, but unclear. We know that he was capable of it even in his old age seeing how he split the sky with Shanks. I'm not saying that he did use it, but I'm not comfortable assuming that he didn't even use it his his last bloodlusted attacks on Sakazuki. Not to mention that even if what you say is true and WB was bad at all three Hakis (lol) he was *still *treated as and considered the strongest above Kaido.

I can't say that I understand your take on the Aokiji is ice thing... Last I checked, CoA exists.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 4, 2022)

Kaido mid to low diff.


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## rext1 (Mar 4, 2022)

Surviving 10 days against Sakazuki >>> Losing to Wano Luffy.

The ex Wadmiral takes this. Lonko Kaido loses mid diff


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## rext1 (Mar 4, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Old half dead WB wrecked Akainu's shit. I'm a certain that Kaido > that version of WB. Hence even if he has been in battles and is not at full strength, I think he takes this.


 
WB cheapshotted Akainu and still got half his head melted off. Akainu was running around just fine for the rest of MF.

Without his trusty third party distractions Kaido aint doing shit to another top tier

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Van Basten (Mar 4, 2022)

Kuzan high diff.

If fresh, Kaido extreme diff.


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I don't know about that. CoO, he was able to react to all 3 Admirals, including Kizaru. CoA, I don't see how you could come to that conclusion while acknowledging the beatdown that he put on Sakazuki. AdCoC is questionable, but unclear. We know that he was capable of it even in his old age seeing how he split the sky with Shanks. I'm not saying that he did use it, but I'm not comfortable assuming that he didn't even use it his his last bloodlusted attacks on Sakazuki. Not to mention that even if what you say is true and WB was bad at all three Hakis (lol) he was *still *treated as and considered the strongest above Kaido.
> 
> I can't say that I understand your take on the Aokiji is ice thing... Last I checked, CoA exists.


It was diminished coo, Marco explicitly stated that.


He couldn’t even use coc without getting a heart attack.

No he was wsm but he had extreme health issues and took a crap ton of damage by that point. 


Aokiji can counter magma better than normal humans as we saw they split the island in half with their respective elements. If akainu has to get through aokiji it’s not easy given that aokiji can nullify magma and vice versa.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 4, 2022)

rext1 said:


> Surviving 10 days against Sakazuki >>> Losing to Wano Luffy.
> 
> The ex Wadmiral takes this. Lonko Kaido loses mid diff





rext1 said:


> WB cheapshotted Akainu and still got half his head melted off. Akainu was running around just fine for the rest of MF.
> 
> Without his trusty third party distractions Kaido aint doing shit to another top tier





Van Basten said:


> Kuzan high diff.
> 
> If fresh, Kaido extreme diff.


The troll squad in fanverse is suffering from post-traumatic damage

Reactions: Funny 2


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## watertaco (Mar 4, 2022)

Extravlad said:


> Make it 100% Kaido and Aokiji still wins extreme diff



Vlad coming in with the fucking nukes.


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## MartyMcFly1 (Mar 4, 2022)

Piecesis said:


> You're right, it took him 10 days to lose to a person that Sick WB fodderised in a couple of mins.


Admiral hate is a disease. Akainu countered everything Whitebeard tried to do. Then when Whitebeard was enraged, he took a blindside and still managed to remove half his face. Then he got up after receiving such an attack.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> It was diminished coo, Marco explicitly stated that.


Maybe we have different definitions of the word _explicit_, but Marco never mentioned CoO. His statement could have also been talking about WB's reaction and movement speeds, both of which would be directly impacted by his deteriorating health.


arv993 said:


> He couldn’t even use coc without getting a heart attack.
> 
> No he was wsm but he had extreme health issues and took a crap ton of damage by that point.


He tried to use it _once _and had a heart attack. The first time he used it, which wasn't too far off time-wise from MF, he successfully used it and was able to split the sky with current Yonkou Shanks. We have a sample size of two and he successfully used it half the time. Failing half the time isn't grounds to claim that he can't use it at all despite him showing that he could.

Yes, health issues that didn't change the fact that he was the WSM. Some people like to debate against the explicit words of the manga. WB was WSM until his death.


arv993 said:


> Aokiji can counter magma better than normal humans as we saw they split the island in half with their respective elements. If akainu has to get through aokiji it’s not easy given that aokiji can nullify magma and vice versa.


Maybe in a scenario in which his body doesn't get hit, but I think his missing leg kinda renders this take a bit...nonsensical. Aokiji doesn't have an *advantage *against Sakazuki and I wouldn't say that he can just nullify magma. That's also pretty nonsensical.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Delta Shell (Mar 4, 2022)

Aokiji inbound in 5 chapters

Reactions: Funny 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Maybe we have different definitions of the word _explicit_, but Marco never mentioned CoO. His statement could have also been talking about WB's reaction and movement speeds, both of which would be directly impacted by his deteriorating health.
> 
> He tried to use it _once _and had a heart attack. The first time he used it, which wasn't too far off time-wise from MF, he successfully used it and was able to split the sky with current Yonkou Shanks. We have a sample size of two and he successfully used it half the time. Failing half the time isn't grounds to claim that he can't use it at all despite him showing that he could.
> 
> ...


Well Marco basically stated his coo is not what it was in the past. So he had diminished coo what part of that is wrong?


Yea but in MF, he was off the meds so he was prone to heart attacks when he used it. And he was extremely banged up so it’s obvious he can’t use advcoc at the time.

I’m not saying they can’t hurt each other I’m saying that aokiji is a better counter to magma than most other humans due to his df. He also has instant ice generation which is effective defense.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 4, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Did you see what they did to the strongest pirate during MarineFord.


Yea they didn’t look good

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Well Marco basically stated his coo is not what it was in the past. So he had diminished coo what part of that is wrong?


For one, you went from saying he _explicitly_ stated it to... he _basically _stated it. You don't really have much here. As I said, the statement could've easily been relating directly to his reaction speed and movement speed. Having great CoO is nice and all, but that's half the battle. If you fail to react in time, having great CoO doesn't really do much for you. Enel is a prime example.


arv993 said:


> Yea but in MF, he was off the meds so he was prone to heart attacks when he used it. And he was extremely banged up *so it’s obvious he can’t use advcoc at the time.*


Nah, it's not. That's just, unfortunately, an increasingly popular fanfic.


arv993 said:


> I’m not saying they can’t hurt each other I’m saying that aokiji is a better counter to magma than most other humans due to his df. He also has instant ice generation which is effective defense.


Mmkay, why does that matter? If it doesn't generate any kind of advantage for Aokiji, I think your argument falls short. I mean, of course he's better equipped for fight Sakazuki than say...Usopp...or Perona.


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> You mean the strongest pirate and you forgot how Akainu was back in action 2 chapters later


I consider Kaido to be above old WB, especially the "off his meds" version of Marineford who couldn't use basic CoC talkless of the advanced variant, and was prone to heart attacks.


rext1 said:


> WB cheapshotted Akainu and still got half his head melted off. Akainu was running around just fine for the rest of MF.


A "cheap shot" that didn't stop Akainu from striking back and taking a chunk off his face as you've stated. In the end, the portrayal was clear that WB was superior. The fact that Akainu recovered afterwards doesn't change the fact that he got defeated by a half dead WB who went on to hold off the Marines, lol diff Yami Teach and had to be taken out by Teach's entire crew.


rext1 said:


> Without his trusty third party distractions Kaido aint doing shit to another top tier


Yeah sure.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Someone unironically calling the fact that Marineford WB never showed basic use of CoC, talkless of AdCoc "fanfic"  

Never change @Conxc

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Yeah, you can't attribute Akainu's defeat to a distraction after he turned around to take WB's face and still got pummeled.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Mar 4, 2022)

It’s extremely “tier specialist who’s out thinking the manga” to think akainu came out on top


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

Who's gonna tell the kids that the WB that split the skies with Shanks is the same as MF WB? I mean, I'm down to let them think they're clever   .

Reactions: Funny 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> For one, you went from saying he _explicitly_ stated it to... he _basically _stated it. You don't really have much here. As I said, the statement could've easily been relating directly to his reaction speed and movement speed. Having great CoO is nice and all, but that's half the battle. If you fail to react in time, having great CoO doesn't really do much for you. Enel is a prime example.
> 
> Nah, it's not. That's just, unfortunately, an increasingly popular fanfic.
> 
> Mmkay, why does that matter? If it doesn't generate any kind of advantage for Aokiji, I think your argument falls short. I mean, of course he's better equipped for fight Sakazuki than say...Usopp...or Perona.


You’re really grasping for straws here. Do you believe mf wb has diminished coo or not? Marco stated he used to be able to dodge his Allie’s and he is not what he once was. That is directly referring to his coo. I’m not here to play the semantics game here but Marco made it clear.


So you believe he can use advcoc when he couldn’t even use coc? Nice 


I don’t have to prove that he used advcoc because mf wb never used it during the war.


He’s better equipped than other top tiers like even garp or sengoku since they have to be extremely careful to avoid hits where as someone like kuzan can instantly generate ice as a means of defense. Yamato used an ice shield on her body to withstand some of kaido’s boro breath/tbs where as luffy needs to tank or dodge. Some fruits offer better defense capabilities etc is the main takeaway here.

 If you still can’t comprehend that and come up with childish ussop, perona comparisons I can’t help you.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

MF WB was unhooked from his life support systems, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. MF WB was stabbed through his chest, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. Marco even explicitly stated that WB's health had deteriorated even more than the WB who split the skies with Shanks. Reading is fundamental.

Reactions: Like 1


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## arv993 (Mar 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> MF WB was unhooked from his life support systems, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. MF WB was stabbed through his chest, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. Marco even explicitly stated that WB's health had deteriorated even more. Reading is fundamental.


These are the same guys that talk about kaido’s injuries and bemoan all of luffy’s help but don’t acknowledge mf wb and his gauntlet. 

Jeez

The admiral brigade is one of the most desperate groups I’ve seen. They really want positive feats against the yonko so much so that they would blatantly change the story.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Narutozo (Mar 4, 2022)

If Aokiji has adcoc, he wins extreme diff.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> These are the same guys that talk about kaido’s injuries and bemoan all of luffy’s help but don’t acknowledge mf wb and his gauntlet.
> 
> Jeez
> 
> The admiral brigade is one of the most desperate for positive feats against the yonko they would blatantly change the story.


Kaido, a character that can fight for days on end, apparently isn't performing at Yonko level because of some fatigue.

But Old sick and dying WB riddled with lethal injuries was apparently capable of outputting more power than any of the Yonko are capable of at their best despite there being several canon sources that point out how the Yonko are all on the same level when healthy.

It's honestly ridiculous.


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> Who's gonna tell the kids that the WB that split the skies with Shanks is the same as MF WB? I mean, I'm down to let them think they're clever   .



Oda: Marineford WB's health has declined significantly coz he's off his life support systems (which he had when he clashed with Shanks)

If you need to find the person introducing fanfic to this debate, you need only look in the mirror


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

"Old, half dead WB destroyed Akainu!"
"Old WB was weak and deteriorated off his meds!"

Pure clown shit.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

arv993 said:


> You’re really grasping for straws here. Do you believe mf wb has diminished coo or not? Marco stated he used to be able to dodge his Allie’s and he is not what he once was. That is directly referring to his coo. I’m not here to play the semantics game here but Marco made it clear.


My argument is sound. Not sure what you're talking about. Of course he was diminished from his Prime. Old age. This is something that is affecting all of the vets. Sickness is what contributes to his decline from his Prime years.

You're argument, however, is shaky as fuck. You went from speaking as if what you were saying was canon, as if you could provide a scan that says "WB's CoO has declined" when you can't. That's not semantics. You're simply making things up, like how you said WB has bad CoA. Remember that?


arv993 said:


> So you believe he can use advcoc when he couldn’t even use coc? Nice


He showed you that he could not too much earlier than MF. Just because he failed to use it at MF because he suffered from a convenient heart attack at the same time does not mean that he *could not *use CoC or AdCoC anymore.


arv993 said:


> I don’t have to prove that he used advcoc because mf wb never used it during the war.


I don't recall saying you did.


arv993 said:


> He’s better equipped than other top tiers like even garp or sengoku since they have to be extremely careful to avoid hits where as someone like kuzan can instantly generate ice as a means of defense. Yamato used an ice shield on her body to withstand some of kaido’s boro breath/tbs where as luffy needs to tank or dodge. Some fruits offer better defense capabilities etc is the main takeaway here.


All you're stating here is character skillsets. You're not proving that Kuzan has any kind of advantage in a matchup against Sakazuki. You're straying further and further from your initial point with each post.


arv993 said:


> If you still can’t comprehend that and come up with childish ussop, perona comparisons I can’t help you.


If you make bad comparisons that are easily countered, I can't help you.


Chip Skylark said:


> MF WB was unhooked from his life support systems, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. MF WB was stabbed through his chest, unlike the WB that split the skies with Shanks. Marco even explicitly stated that WB's health had deteriorated even more than the WB who split the skies with Shanks. Reading is fundamental.


I'm not gonna even ask why you'd start basing MF WB off after he got stabbed through the chest. Ironically enough, unhooked, sick WB actually has better feats than the WB that split the skies with Shanks, if you're silly enough to separate them by arc even though they're the same character. A lot of that false cleverness going around I see.

And yes, reading is fundamental moe, you should try it.

*Spoiler*: __ 








 I honestly don't know how many times you had to be told this and you *still *don't get it.


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> "Old, half dead WB destroyed Akainu!"
> "Old WB was weak and deteriorated off his meds!"
> 
> Pure clown shit.



Yeah, how exactly are those two points contradictory. 

His ship doctor literally tells us that his health has declined and we get a direct reference to his life support systems. How in the hell is that not clear evidence of .... 



Conxc said:


> Ironically enough, unhooked, sick WB actually has better feats than the WB that split the skies with Shanks, if you're silly enough to separate them by arc even though they're the same character


Yep. Saw this whilst in the middle of typing. I mean it's you, so I shouldn't be surprised, but goddamn


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> I'm not gonna even ask why you'd start basing MF WB off after he got stabbed through the chest.


Because he didn’t start fighting until after he was stabbed…


Conxc said:


> Ironically enough, unhooked, sick WB actually has better feats than the WB that split the skies with Shanks, if you're silly enough to separate them by arc even though they're the same character. A lot of that false cleverness going around I see.


Having better feats than a version of yourself that did only one thing isn’t ironic, it’s a given. What a ridiculous  argument.


Conxc said:


> And yes, reading is fundamental moe, you should try it.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


He can be the strongest while still having people on his level…

Being the strongest at a certain point also doesn’t mean he maintained that level throughout the course of his illness and injuries… especially when it’s been explicitly pointed out that he’s deteriorated greatly…


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Because he didn’t start fighting until after he was stabbed…


So you're gonna double down on using an injured version of WB to being fresh and...y'know, not having been stabbed in the chest? This should not come as a surprise tbh.


Chip Skylark said:


> Having better feats than a version of yourself that did only one thing isn’t ironic, it’s a given. What a ridiculous  argument.


When the feat is something that some individuals are trying to take away from the same exact character, who actually showed that he was capable of more? You make a moronic statement, I'm not sure what you thought you'd get back. Whitebeard *exceeded *the quality of feat that you can't fathom that he could pull off at MF. In a much worse state nonetheless.


Chip Skylark said:


> He can be the strongest while still having people on his level…


You seem confused. Having people on your level doesn't mean that you'd lose to them. He was *undisputedly *heralded as the World's Strongest man at different points of the manga, in plain text. Then again, you're the same person that tried to use WB saying that he could not *remain *the strongest forever as him saying that he wasn't the strongest anymore. This is just par for the course. You ran away from that debate too, funny enough.


Chip Skylark said:


> Being the strongest at a certain point also doesn’t mean he maintained that level throughout the course of his illness and injuries… especially not when it’s been explicitly pointed out that he’s deteriorated greatly…


Ahh, even though Oda tells us several times, including his introduction while he was hooked up to his machines, that he was the World's Strongest Man? Guess we should take Chip's word for it over the mangaka.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> When the feat is something that some individuals are trying to take away from the same exact character, who actually showed that he was capable of more? You make a moronic statement, I'm not sure what you thought you'd get back. Whitebeard *exceeded *the quality of feat that you can't fathom that he could pull off at MF. In a much worse state nonetheless.


I'm legit struggling to remember the last time i saw a more retarded clump of word salad  

We are told in explicit terms that WB is on the decline due to health issues cropping up from a lack of his life support systems.

WB managing to pull off what he did in spite of those disadvantages only speaks to how much of a monster he is. The only logical conclusion to be drawn from that is that a healthier version would have done significantly better in the circumstances.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> So you're gonna double down on using an injured version of WB to being fresh and...y'know, not having been stabbed in the chest? This should not come as a surprise tbh.


Because he did nothing while fresh so we have no reference for how he’d perform in a fight outside of the commentary about how he should’ve been able to avoid Squard’s attack while healthy… it really should come as no surprise that I’m not willing to argue almost primarily through imagination


Conxc said:


> When the feat is something that some individuals are trying to take away from the same exact character, who actually showed that he was capable of more? You make a moronic statement, I'm not sure what you thought you'd get back. Whitebeard *exceeded *the quality of feat that you can't fathom that he could pull off at MF. In a much worse state nonetheless.


People take away the feat because he failed in his attempt to use CoC on panel… his still being capable of a lot through different avenues obviously doesn’t mean he was capable of performing the same haki feats when he couldn’t even knock out the executioners…


Conxc said:


> You seem confused. Having people on your level doesn't mean that you'd lose to them. He was *undisputedly *heralded as the World's Strongest man at different points of the manga, in plain text. Then again, you're the same person that tried to use WB saying that he could not *remain *the strongest forever as him saying that he wasn't the strongest anymore. This is just par for the course. You ran away from that debate too, funny enough.


Unfortunately I have a life outside of fan verse… I’ve backed up my stance regarding this on several different occasions. My not being able to finish every argument doesn’t mean I’m running from the debate…

It wasn’t WB’s statement alone that implied he was no longer the strongest, it was the fact that it came after he said too much was expected of him in response to Croc calling him a weakling for not being able to react to an attack at such a low level…


Conxc said:


> Ahh, even though Oda tells us several times, including his introduction while he was hooked up to his machines, that he was the World's Strongest Man? Guess we should take Chip's word for it over the mangaka.


Again, Oda has also said several times that the other Yonko were on his level. We even recently had it pointed out to us through the Ace novel that Big Mom and Kaido surpassed healthy Oldbeard in physical strength. Would stand to reason that people who were considered his peers before his illness wouldn’t still be weaker than him after his strength greatly deteriorated… That much should just be common sense.

If WB could still outperform the other Yonko while severely debilitated they would’ve never been considered to be on his level in the first place…

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Seems like @Conxc is relying on the strawman of folks calling WB "weak" because his health had declined and he couldn't use basic CoC. Not much to say except that it's a Strawman and a very poor one at that.


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## Grinningfox (Mar 4, 2022)

I need someone to talk me through Kuzan winning 

And what is functionally different about Kaido now compared to rooftop and why it matters


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## Thdyingbreed (Mar 4, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Don't really see the difference between current kaido and fresh kaido, all I know is aokiji wins both.  Sakazuki who has the higher AP then kaido was trading blows with aokij


Aokiji isn’t beating a fresh Kaido that starts at full health.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Because he did nothing while fresh so we have no reference for how he’d perform in a fight outside of the commentary about how he should’ve been able to avoid Squard’s attack while healthy… it really should come as no surprise that I’m not willing to argue almost primarily through imagination


That's not how that works. There's more to it than "X character has no feat before he was hurt here." There are obviously aspects of fighting that one would say a sword to the chest could hinder. It's silly, no matter how you slice it, to try and compare an injured character to a fresh character in a fair fight.


Chip Skylark said:


> People take away the feat because he failed in his attempt to use CoC on panel… his still being capable of a lot through different avenues obviously doesn’t mean he was capable of performing the same haki feats when he couldn’t even knock out the executioners…


And him not being able to use AdCoC in that one instance doesn't mean that he *could not *use AdCoC *at all *anymore. Especially since not so much prior, he showed the feat.


Chip Skylark said:


> Unfortunately I have a life outside of fan verse… I’ve backed up my stance regarding this on several different occasions. My not being able to finish every argument doesn’t mean I’m running from the debate…


You didn't back anything up. You instead tried to push your super loose interpretations of direct words as canon.


Chip Skylark said:


> It wasn’t WB’s statement alone that implied he was no longer the strongest, it was the fact that it came after he said too much was expected of him in response to Croc calling him a weakling for not being able to react to an attack at such a low level…


The fact that he says that he can't *remain *the strongest, *again*, reinforces that he still was.


Chip Skylark said:


> Again, Oda has also said several times that the other Yonko were on his level. We even recently had it pointed out to us through the Ace novel that Big Mom and Kaido surpassed healthy Oldbeard in physical strength. Would stand to reason that people who were considered his peers before his illness wouldn’t still be weaker than him after his strength greatly deteriorated… That much should just be common sense.


Being on someone's level =/= beig greater than or perfectly equal to them. You bring up Oda's words when it suits you, and ignore them other times, like the million times that he had reinforced, doubled, tripled down on WB being the strongest while he was alive. The fact that he was physically weaker than them, yet still heralded as the strongest should be common sense. Plain, explicit text should be common sense, but guys like to argue against the author. Guys like that can't be helped.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 4, 2022)

Conxc said:


> That's not how that works. There's more to it than "X character has no feat before he was hurt here." There are obviously aspects of fighting that one would say a sword to the chest could hinder. It's silly, no matter how you slice it, to try and compare an injured character to a fresh character in a fair fight.


There was no point in your original comparison if you didn’t  intend on using the version of MF WB that actually fought anyone during the battle… you can say that MF WB was better before the stab, but to what end? It doesn’t serve to help your point any with no actual reference for how much of a difference it made…



Conxc said:


> And him not being able to use AdCoC in that one instance doesn't mean that he *could not *use AdCoC *at all *anymore. Especially since not so much prior, he showed the feat.


It shows that you can’t assume he was capable of consistently using it on an advanced level when he failed in even its basic use… the timeframe doesn’t matter much when it was still emphasized that he had greatly deteriorated before even stepping foot onto the battle. 


Conxc said:


> You didn't back anything up. You instead tried to push your super loose interpretations of direct words as canon.


Sure…


Conxc said:


> The fact that he says that he can't *remain *the strongest, *again*, reinforces that he still was.


WB responded to Croc’s criticism by saying that too much was expected of him in the present… nothing about his dialogue addressing a current failing would imply that he was referring to an inevitable future decline. 


Conxc said:


> Being on someone's level =/= beig greater than or perfectly equal to them. You bring up Oda's words when it suits you, and ignore them other times, like the million times that he had reinforced, doubled, tripled down on WB being the strongest while he was alive. The fact that he was physically weaker than them, yet still heralded as the strongest should be common sense. Plain, explicit text should be common sense, but guys like to argue against the author. Guys like that can't be helped.


It was stated that the Yonko don’t fight each other because neither would survive. That clearly suggests parity between them.

Besides, my argument was never that they were perfect equals… it was that characters close to him in strength wouldn’t still be weaker than him after his strength greatly deteriorated.

For the last time, pointing out that WB got weaker doesn’t deny the fact that he was the strongest when healthy.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Mar 4, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> the timeframe doesn’t matter much when it was still emphasized that he had greatly deteriorated before even stepping foot onto the battle.


Basically this. We even get a direct reference to the absence of his life support systems being the deciding factor behind his sudden decline. "Time frame" is a lol worthy point in the context.


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## Conxc (Mar 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> There was no point in your original comparison if you didn’t  intend on using the version of MF WB that actually fought anyone during the battle… you can say that MF WB was better before the stab, but to what end? It doesn’t serve to help your point any with no actual reference for how much of a difference it made…


It's less about if he's fought prior and more about him being in better fighting condition...when fresh. This should go without saying. How can you call a matchup fair when one character has been stabbed through the chest? before the fight even starts?


Chip Skylark said:


> It shows that you can’t assume he was* capable of consistently using it on* an advanced level when he failed in even its basic use… the timeframe doesn’t matter much when it was still emphasized that he had greatly deteriorated before even stepping foot onto the battle.


I never said that he could *consistently *use it. I said that you can' assume that he *cannot *use it *at all *just because he failed to once after already showing that he could not too much prior.


Chip Skylark said:


> WB responded to Croc’s criticism by saying that too much was expected of him in the present… nothing about his dialogue addressing a current failing would imply that he was referring to an inevitable future decline.


Do you know what the word *remain *means, and why it was still present on that note? Why Oda might have chosen the word _remain_ after repetitively telling us that WB was the strongest? That wording reinforces his title, as well as the feats that followed.


Chip Skylark said:


> It was stated that the Yonko don’t fight each other because neither would survive. That clearly suggests parity between them.
> 
> Besides, my argument was never that they were perfect equals… it was that characters close to him in strength wouldn’t still be weaker than him after his strength greatly deteriorated.
> 
> For the last time, pointing out that WB got weaker doesn’t deny the fact that he was the strongest when healthy.


So you acknowledge that MF WB was the strongest, but you're arguing that Kaido is *certainly* stronger?  If you're comparing a weakened WB to a fresh Kaido, I don't see how the winner isn't obviously gonna be Kaido.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## KennethLT (Mar 5, 2022)

i get confused with people who still believe old beard is stronger than Kaido and Big mom. Sure, Kaido is executing attacks With effects near the level of prime whitebeard and Roger, but let’s believe Old beard is still superior.

like why?

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 5, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> i get confused with people who still believe old beard is stronger than Kaido and Big mom. Sure, Kaido is executing attacks With effects near the level of prime whitebeard and Roger, but let’s believe Old beard is still superior.
> 
> like why?


It's admiral fans who can't handle that Oda had to put a Yonko in a deathbed state for him to have competitive encounters with admirals  

It's very transparent

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 3


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## Kroczilla (Mar 5, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> i get confused with people who still believe old beard is stronger than Kaido and Big mom. Sure, Kaido is executing attacks With effects near the level of prime whitebeard and Roger, but let’s believe Old beard is still superior.
> 
> like why?


Tbh a lot of the time, the OL goes with a character's popularity rather than their actual feats. Kaido is a prime example of this.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Piecesis (Mar 5, 2022)

MartyMcFly1 said:


> Admiral hate is a disease. Akainu countered everything Whitebeard tried to do. Then when Whitebeard was enraged, he took a blindside and still managed to remove half his face. Then he got up after receiving such an attack.


It's not hate, you don't have to hate someone to think they're weaker.  I'd be surprised if he couldn't counter anything.

He's fighting an old sick man and still lost.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MartyMcFly1 (Mar 5, 2022)

Piecesis said:


> It's not hate, you don't have to hate someone to think they're weaker.  I'd be surprised if he couldn't counter anything.
> 
> He's fighting an old sick man and still lost.


I wouldn’t say that he lost. He countered everything Whitebeard did, got blindsided and even then he came out on top. 

Then he came back and attacked his crew and nearly killed the protagonist of the story.


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## KennethLT (Mar 5, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> It's admiral fans who can't handle that Oda had to put a Yonko in a deathbed state for him to have competitive encounters with admirals
> 
> It's very transparent


I have somewhat similar opinions, but honestly my gripe isn’t with the admiral fans, it is with the people who overrate Old Whitebeard. 


Kroczilla said:


> Tbh a lot of the time, the OL goes with a character's popularity rather than their actual feats. Kaido is a prime example of this.


Kind of fucking backwards if you ask me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 5, 2022)

Conxc said:


> It's less about if he's fought prior and more about him being in better fighting condition...when fresh. This should go without saying. How can you call a matchup fair when one character has been stabbed through the chest? before the fight even starts?


Honestly insane that you somehow still don't seem to understand the point here.


Conxc said:


> I never said that he could *consistently *use it. I said that you can' assume that he *cannot *use it *at all *just because he failed to once after already showing that he could not too much prior.


The burden of proof is on you to show when/that he used it if you intend on arguing that he did since he failed in his actual clear attempt.  The fact that he used it against Shanks wouldn't cut it for what should be obvious reasons. Moreover his inability to consistently use it is another clear shortcoming of his during that war relative to his other Yonko peers.


Conxc said:


> Do you know what the word *remain *means, and why it was still present on that note? Why Oda might have chosen the word _remain_ after repetitively telling us that WB was the strongest? That wording reinforces his title, as well as the feats that followed.


... Do you know what the word means?

WB said that he _can't _remain the strongest forever. As in, can not. Remain, as in continue.

In other words, WB said "_you expect too much of me,_ Crocodile! They call me a field and a monster, but I *can not*(can't) *continue*(remain) to be the strongest forever."

Don't know what's making you single out the word "remain" when  the whole quote is about how he _*can't*_ live up to the expectations of him. Not that he will remain the strongest, but that he _*can't.*_


Conxc said:


> So you acknowledge that MF WB was the strongest, but you're arguing that Kaido is *certainly* stronger?  If you're comparing a weakened WB to a fresh Kaido, I don't see how the winner isn't obviously gonna be Kaido.


Obviously the comparison is about a weakened WB. Holy shit, Concx. This entire discussion we've been emphasizing WB's weaknesses. Why did it take you this long to halfway understand that? Have I been punk'd? Where are the cameras?

The point of course being that Akainu losing to a weakened Yonko shows how he stands relative to an actually healthy one.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 5, 2022)

Kroczilla said:


> Tbh a lot of the time, the OL goes with a character's popularity rather than their actual feats. Kaido is a prime example of this.


Think it's less about popularity and more about clinging to agenda's.

WB directly and irrefutably destroyed the notion that Admirals rival the Yonko so the plan then became to argue that WB was somehow the exception despite his age, illness, and injuries.

Just like when Fuji underperformed relative to expectations he was suddenly regarded as weaker than the rest even though the Admirals were all previously considered on par with each other.

People don't adjust most of the time. Which is why even now some people in the community constantly elevate the standard for the Admirals based on Kaido's performance even though they've never performed anywhere near that well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Beast (Mar 5, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Agreed. Maybe if Kaido was on his deathbed like WB this would be a fair match for Aokiji. Very big Yonko fan bait thread.


One of the people to rate your thing with agree is Mariko. You’re clearly in the wrong by default.

Shit, agreed with mine too. 
So one of us is clearly wrong. My bet is you.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## MrPopo (Mar 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Think it's less about popularity and more about clinging to agenda's.
> 
> WB directly and irrefutably destroyed the notion that Admirals rival the Yonko so the plan then became to argue that WB was somehow the exception despite his age, illness, and injuries.
> 
> ...


Why would chinjao and luffy mention the admirals and yonkou when it comes to pirate king if the amdirals didnt rival the yonkou


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## Conxc (Mar 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> Honestly insane that you somehow still don't seem to understand the point here.


I understand the point you're trying to make. It's just really silly and I think it's *more* insane that you don't realize that.


Chip Skylark said:


> The burden of proof is on you to show when/that he used it if you intend on arguing that he did since he failed in his actual clear attempt.  The fact that he used it against Shanks wouldn't cut it for what should be obvious reasons. Moreover his inability to consistently use it is another clear shortcoming of his during that war relative to his other Yonko peers.


What'd you say earlier, uh, reading is fundamental? I clearly stated that I was not arguing that he *did *use it again. I clearly stated that I *was not *arguing that he could consistently use it. I'm arguing that you can't claim that he *cannot *use it *at all *just because he failed to once when he *did *use it prior. The WB that split the sky with Shanks is fair game because that is literally the same character that showed up to MF. This point is where we are not agreeing, and I don't think that will change.


Chip Skylark said:


> ... Do you know what the word means?
> 
> WB said that he _can't _remain the strongest forever. As in, can not. Remain, as in continue.
> 
> In other words, WB said "_you expect too much of me,_ Crocodile! They call me a field and a monster, but I *can not*(can't) *continue*(remain) to be the strongest forever."


To state that he cannot _remain _clearly means that he *still is*, but *cannot be forever*. The part that seems to be kicking your ass is the _"still is" _part. Earlier you were quoting the Ace Novel info and pretty much rattled off all of them...except:

_Whitebeard becomes terrible if someone did bad things to his family. He is the strongest pirate in the world!_

Again, Oda telling you what you refuse to believe.



Chip Skylark said:


> Don't know what's making you single out the word "remain" when  the whole quote is about how he _*can't*_ live up to the expectations of him. Not that he will remain the strongest, but that he _*can't.*_


He never said that he *will* remain the strongest. He's saying that he *can't, *but until that point, the word _remain _means that he *still is. *Not sure what's so hard to understand about that.


Chip Skylark said:


> Obviously the comparison is about a weakened WB. Holy shit, Concx. This entire discussion we've been emphasizing WB's weaknesses. Why did it take you this long to halfway understand that? Have I been punk'd? Where are the cameras?
> 
> The point of course being that Akainu losing to a weakened Yonko shows how he stands relative to an actually healthy one.


Why would anyone just think that guys are comparing a half dead WB to a fresh Kaido?

And again, in a fight that high of a level, every clean hit counts. In less than a minute Sakazuki also took half his face, which could've ended him. He was blindsided. When they were fighting straight up, neither side was getting the edge. I'm not an Admiral or Yonkou fan in particular, but I just find it silly for people to claim that all of the Admirals individually are weaker than any single Yonkou despite how often they've been brought up together and treated as Super Powers within the world.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2022)

Yonko brigade keeps bringing up "deadbeard" "stomping" and are completely incapable of objectivity.

Let's forget about the fact that WB was bloodlusted asf when he put Akainu "down", because Ace died right in front of his eyes.

At that point, his weakened state and declining health _no longer mattered. _Rage is a real factor in One Piece. See Luffy VS Lucci and how that fight ended.

A WB who was incapable of hitting Aokiji and Kizaru, and clashed evenly with Akainu when he was in relatively far "better health" (he fought Kuzan near the beginning of the War), yet he took out Akainu by connecting cleanly with him in far worse shape.



arv993 said:


> These are the same guys that talk about *kaido’s injuries and bemoan all of luffy’s help but don’t acknowledge mf wb and his gauntlet.*
> 
> Jeez
> 
> The admiral brigade is one of the most desperate groups I’ve seen. They really want positive feats against the yonko so much so that they would blatantly change the story.



Yet Yonko stans wanna dismiss his gauntlet when taking into account the caliber and quality of Kaido's opponents and dismissing Big Mom's presence on the Roof alongside him to say that Kaido >> WB. I mean WB was mostly fighting fodder marine foot soldiers and stalemated with the Admirals before he beat Akainu in an enraged state, right?

Bro we can't point out other people's double standards without acknowledging our own. You're a good poster, and I think our views aren't that far apart as far as reading comprehension.
But we might as well just admit we're all hypocrites instead of pretending we're definitely right and have somehow found a conclusion to how things work in this manga 


The Admiral brigade are definitely wrong with takes like Kizaru lol-diffs Kaido or that Fujitora is equal to the WSC. From what we've seen, perhaps only a Fleet Admiral version of Sakazuki is truly equal to a Yonko, individually. So claiming they are definitely stronger is surely trolling of the highest order. _However_, the degree to which the Yonko brigade also extrapolates the shit at face value to say that "Yonko stomp Admirals" or 1 Yonko crew = Marines + Shichibukai is equally if not more laughable 



OL is a lost cause mi amigo. Best thing to do is not to take anything anyone says seriously, including me

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 3


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 5, 2022)

Beast said:


> One of the people to rate your thing with agree is Mariko. You’re clearly in the wrong by default.
> 
> Shit, agreed with mine too.
> So one of us is clearly wrong. My bet is you.


Mariko is one of the smartest here so idk about that first sentence. 


MrPopo said:


> Why would chinjao and luffy mention the admirals and yonkou when it comes to pirate king if the amdirals didnt rival the yonkou


Because they are obstacles to freedom. Having the most freedom is Roger and Luffy's definition of PK. Though Dressrosa Luffy and Chinjao saw admirals and Yonko as obstacles because they were weaker than either party. 

BM a Yonko, only saw other Yonko as obstacles to her being PK . Admirals are not obstacles for any Yonko  becoming PK

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrPopo (Mar 5, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Mariko is one of the smartest here so idk about that first sentence.
> 
> Because they are obstacles to freedom. Having the most freedom is Roger and Luffy's definition of PK. Though Dressrosa Luffy and Chinjao saw admirals and Yonko as obstacles because they were weaker than either party.


Chinjao talks about surpassing roger and mentions the admirals and yonkou Luffy says he can't be pirate king if can't beat the admirals and yonkou.  


Seraphoenix said:


> BM a Yonko, only saw other Yonko as obstacles to her being PK . Admirals are not obstacles for any Yonko  becoming PK


That is why none of the Yonkou will ever be pirate king

Reactions: Like 1


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> Chinjao talks about surpassing roger and mentions the admirals and yonkou Luffy says he can't be pirate king if can't beat the admirals and yonkou.
> 
> That is why none of the Yonkou will ever be pirate king


Because Loger didn't beat any Yonko. Just caved marine heads in. 

Dressrosa Luffy couldn't beat an admiral. That's why he said it. Because they could restrict his freedom. BM and other Yonko don't have that problem. 

Shanks could just ask Rayleigh where Raftel is if he wanted to be PK, but he doesn't.


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## featherine augustus (Mar 5, 2022)

Also Kaido's boro breath counters Aokiji's ice


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## Piecesis (Mar 5, 2022)

People pick and choose to follow whatever statements they want or works with their agendas.

The plot would tell you that the Shichibukai are also a power on par with the admirals and Yonkou since they're the great three powers but noone here will ever take that seriously.

So instead they just choose to ignore feats for story purposes when it suits them for a set of other feats.

Reactions: Like 2


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## featherine augustus (Mar 5, 2022)

Piecesis said:


> People pick and choose to follow whatever statements they want or works with their agendas.
> 
> The plot would tell you that the Shichibukai are also a power on par with the admirals and Yonkou since they're the great three powers but noone here will ever take that seriously.
> 
> So instead they just choose to ignore feats for story purposes when it suits them for a set of other feats.


Yes doffy = Kaido

Reactions: Funny 3


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## arv993 (Mar 5, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Yonko brigade keeps bringing up "deadbeard" "stomping" and are completely incapable of objectivity.
> 
> Let's forget about the fact that WB was bloodlusted asf when he put Akainu "down", because Ace died right in front of his eyes.
> 
> ...




Brigade works better with admirals since they are in a navy. I prefer yonko set haha. 


Yea he was bloodlusted but how in the world is he wsm at that point. Kaido is wsc but do you think he can take on fresh akainu after all the damage he took right now?

I will give you this argument. Akainu was done wrong because of the narrative and storyline. But one has to admit that by feats akainu and other admirals looks worse off than a kaido because of that war. Things will even out later but atm akainu does look bad in that exchange. 


Wb had a brief interaction with aokiji, that’s not enough to make a conclusion.


Wait let me try to understand your kaido argument. Are you saying that kaido had a better gauntlet? Sure maybe because the scabbards are stronger but wb took hits that actually hurt him and akainu’s magma fist to a chest. This is wayyyyyyyy more damaging than kaido’s injuries.

Kaido is a tank and has high endurance, mf wb only has high endurance. Wb has extremely high AP but lower on tankiness where as kaido is high on all fronts with less AP. Kaido by all purposes is better than mf wb, they might have been even with his meds and prior to his injuries but not mf wb.


I don’t agree with the one yonko = WG. And I vote against those matchups as well. But yes we agree on things for the most part but there’s no ill will here. I’m just pointing out blatant manipulation of the story which anyone is capable of. Admiral brigade just takes it too far and people are serious about it too. dunno and wiggian are trolling which I get but some of the posts that are serious are fun to pick apart.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## MrPopo (Mar 5, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Because Loger didn't beat any Yonko. Just caved marine heads in.


If that were the case then only the yonkou would be mentioned and not the admirals. 


Seraphoenix said:


> Dressrosa Luffy couldn't beat an admiral. That's why he said it. Because they could restrict his freedom.


It's a condition for Luffy to be pirate king if Luffy and surpass Roger.   


Seraphoenix said:


> BM and other Yonko don't have that problem.


Big mom and Kaido wanted to find the ancient weapons to take on the marines after announcing their alliance that is not the case


Seraphoenix said:


> Shanks could just ask Rayleigh where Raftel is if he wanted to be PK, but he doesn't.


To be pirate king is something more than just finding ratftel its not a coincidence that Roger was the strongest on his time


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## Piecesis (Mar 5, 2022)

featherine augustus said:


> Yes doffy = Kaido


Doffy = Prime WB


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## Seraphoenix (Mar 5, 2022)

MrPopo said:


> If that were the case then only the yonkou would be mentioned and not the admirals.
> 
> It's a condition for Luffy to be pirate king if Luffy and surpass Roger.
> 
> ...


Only the Yonko are mentioned by BM, indicating that Yonko don't view admirals as an obstacle to freedom. Your Stalingrad tactics aren't going to work. You have nothing for BM not viewing them the same as weaker people like Chinjao and Dressrosa Luffy. PK is about freedom on the seas and beating whoever can restrict that freedom. The stronger you are, the less people on the list. That's why BM doesn't have any marine on her list. The vivre card even clarifies that if you use that definition of PK that Luffy and Roger use, then Shanks is closest to the throne.

Yes, because Roger was on his own mission that no one knew about. Present day he would struggle to beat the Yonko as he had a free ride in the past.

 BM and Kaido wanted the ancient weapons to take over the world, not scrubs like the marines lmao. Taking over the world includes beating other Yonko. The WG alone can't take over Wano with Kaido alone. Orochi said as much and CP0 didn't contradict him. We even see they won't even attempt to take Wano unless Kaido is defeated.

Roger was only called PK after reaching Laugh Tale. He still had an equal in WB.


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## Mihawk (Mar 5, 2022)

arv993 said:


> Brigade works better with admirals since they are in a navy. I prefer yonko set haha.


Sweet.


arv993 said:


> Yea he was bloodlusted but how in the world is he wsm at that point. Kaido is wsc but do you think he can take on fresh akainu after all the damage he took right now?


It's not about him being WSM at that point. It's about the output of power and amount of destructive ability that he was packing in that moment.

The full brunt of an attack to vital spots from an enraged, bloodlusted WB who no longer cared about avoiding/defending against the Admiral's attack or the wellbeing of his own life in favour of the single-minded vision of destroying Akainu> an attack by a far healthier WB (let's say near the start of the War). The result of the attack should make this fairly obvious. Whitebeard, prior to being magma-fisted and taking countless injuries had his quake imbued bisento casually countered by Akainu's foot, which was imbued with magma. He was also unable to connect against Kuzan despite being in far better condition. On the other hand, the attack he used against Akainu's ribcage after having half his face gone and following countless other injuries, far surpassed the output of his earlier ones, but everyone neglects to mention that. That was due to the shift in Whitebeard's mindset. He was so full of rage and basically had nothing to lose after Ace's death. The mission had failed. He was free to unleash his wrath on Akainu.

Some may argue that he lost his face to Akainu because "his Haki was so poor he couldn't dodge". That's pure buffoonery, as it can also be easily interpreted as his mindset no longer caring about what happened to him. It had less to do with power levels, and more to do with the fact that he had already resigned himself to dying and trying to take Akainu along with him if it was the last thing he did.

Also, it simply wouldn't make sense that he failed to hit Aokiji or Kizaru when he was in relatively better condition (far better in the case of Kuzan), yet he was able to connect cleanly twice on Akainu. Willpower, rage, and sheer mindset were the deciding factors here, in addition to sheer destructive power being unleashed under those conditions. His state of health was completely inconsequential in that situation.



arv993 said:


> I will give you this argument. Akainu was done wrong because of the narrative and storyline.


It's a similar thing to Luffy VS Lucci, although of course WB > admirals. One has to keep in mind that WB was very much like a main protagonist in the Marineford Arc (more so than Luffy because he actually had the ability to make a substantial difference), and Akainu was the main antagonist.

It's an interesting parallel though, because the same can easily be said of Akainu's willpower after making his comeback from taking those attacks and falling down that ravine, before resuming fighting as if the quake punches didn't slow him down much at all. Of course, he still lost that encounter.


arv993 said:


> But one has to admit that by feats akainu and other admirals looks worse off than a kaido because of that war. Things will even out later but atm akainu does look bad in that exchange.


Well, the issue of feats just comes down to the Admirals having no spotlight in Wano. This has been Kaido's arc, so naturally Oda is going to show us everything he's capable of and then some. I'm not arguing that any of the Admirals are as strong as Kaido, but I'm just pointing out that the current state of affairs in the narrative (including the introduction of more Advanced Haki in this arc) makes it easy for Yonko set to downplay the Admirals based on the fact that the latter's _feats _stem from an arc that happened over 10 years ago...but let's also not forget that the Marines are apparently stronger than ever under Akainu's leadership, and his importance since MF has been elevated by Oda himself, so the author clearly has bigger plans for him.

Akainu looked about as what we'd expect from him to be honest, as he was against the *full force *of the WSM. We shouldn't forget that while he did take the L; he still dealt WB a fatal blow and went on to fight the Remnants later. Not long after the War, he was up and running again without bandages or such when he chased Teach's crew away. He looked good in Marineford, and second only in overall performance to Whitebeard.



arv993 said:


> Wb had a brief interaction with aokiji, that’s not enough to make a conclusion.


There's no conclusion to make. We know WB is > Aokiji; however, Kuzan showed he had what it took to fight and exchange blows with him on somewhat level ground in spite of having his powers being negated by WB. That should be highly impressive to anyone with common sense. Akainu showed that he could match WB's strength in direct combat earlier in the War before the heart attacks, and Kizaru showed that he could outpace a weakened, sluggish Whitebeard who tried to swipe at him. This is consistent with Kuzan's showing. The conclusion to make here was that Kuzan was easily able to counter some of Whitebeard's moves, including the Tsunami, Haki-imbued bisento strikes, and Gura punches. Akainu's defeat to a bloodlusted WB however, indicated that Kuzan would've lost too. 



arv993 said:


> Wait let me try to understand your kaido argument. Are you saying that kaido had a better gauntlet? Sure maybe because the scabbards are stronger but wb took hits that actually hurt him and akainu’s magma fist to a chest.


It's far from definitive since the structure of the Marineford War is completely different from the Raid and Roof Piece. WB never had another Yonko at his side to help split up the Supernovas, and thus he was the focal point of a good majority of the attacks on a much wider battlefield. However, it's equally important to note that the caliber of opponents that Kaido was facing (Scabbards, Novas, Yamato, Current Luffy) are far superior to Marine Vice Admirals and foot soldiers. This is of course, true until we talk about the 3 Admirals. However, Kuzan didn't inflict any injury on WB (nor vice versa), and Kizaru fired a single beam into him. It was Akainu who did most of the damage out of the 3, with his magma fists to chest and head. The lethality of Akainu's attacks cleanly connecting to any character, is far more devastating than any single attack from the Rooftop 5 or the Scabbards, _because _that character in question doesn't have the benefit of Kaido's durability.



arv993 said:


> This is wayyyyyyyy more damaging than kaido’s injuries.


Yes, but It's only because WB doesn't have the benefit of Oni-level durability. Whitebeard was still a human, unlike Kaido, and while he's also a tank; he had to will himself through a lot of the damage he took as opposed to shrugging them off.


arv993 said:


> Kaido is a tank and has high endurance, mf wb only has high endurance. Wb has extremely high AP but lower on tankiness where as kaido is high on all fronts with less AP.


I agree with this wholeheartedly.


arv993 said:


> Kaido by all purposes is better than mf wb, they might have been even with his meds and prior to his injuries but not mf wb.


I'd say he was fine even as he appeared in Marineford. But yeah, the Squardo stab likely was a catalyst for further decline, while the magma fists to the chest further worsened his heart condition.


arv993 said:


> I don’t agree with the one yonko = WG. And I vote against those matchups as well. But yes we agree on things for the most part but there’s no ill will here. I’m just pointing out blatant manipulation of the story which anyone is capable of. Admiral brigade just takes it too far and people are serious about it too. dunno and wiggian are trolling which I get but some of the posts that are serious are fun to pick apart.



You are enlightened friend  Stay blessed.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## MrPopo (Mar 5, 2022)

Seraphoenix said:


> Only the Yonko are mentioned by BM, indicating that Yonko don't view admirals as an obstacle to freedom. Your Stalingrad tactics aren't going to work. You have nothing for BM not viewing them the same as weaker people like Chinjao and Dressrosa Luffy.


She only talks about the other yonkou so that she can end her dead lock with them and obtain the other  poneglyphs. She would still have to deal with the admirals. 

Edit:
I don't know why your brining up chinjaos strength he is talking about surpassing Roger it had nothing to do with his strength 


Seraphoenix said:


> PK is about freedom on the seas and beating whoever can restrict that freedom. The stronger you are, the less people on the list. That's why BM doesn't have any marine on her list. The vivre card even clarifies that if you use that definition of PK that Luffy and Roger use, then Shanks is closest to the throne.


Which is way in order for Luffy to pirate king he mentions surpass the yonkou and the admirals if the yonkou were stronger then he wouldnt need to as surpassing just the yonkou would imply hes already surpassed the admirals


Seraphoenix said:


> Yes, because Roger was on his own mission that no one knew about. Present day he would struggle to beat the Yonko as he had a free ride in the past.


The Roger pirates would beat any yonkou crew in a full out war


Seraphoenix said:


> BM and Kaido wanted the ancient weapons to take over the world, not scrubs like the marines lmao. Taking over the world includes beating other Yonko. The WG alone can't take over Wano with Kaido alone. Orochi said as much and CP0 didn't contradict him. We even see they won't even attempt to take Wano unless Kaido is defeated.


In chapter 985 Kaido only mentions the marines and the world government he is specifically  getting the ancient weapons for them not the other yonkou.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Seraphoenix said:


> Roger was only called PK after reaching Laugh Tale. He still had an equal in WB.


That equal was cock blocking other competitors from becoming the pirate king. WB was the strongest and could have been pirate king if he wanted Doffys whole throne wars speech confirms this


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## KennethLT (Mar 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> People don't adjust most of the time. Which is why even now some people in the community constantly elevate the standard for the Admirals based on Kaido's performance even though they've never performed anywhere near that well.


The gap is quite clear. Big mom and Kaido have the best overall feats in the modern world. Even playing devils advocate and having akainu as stronger than Old beard (which I don’t), he did absolutely nothing that elevates him to be an equal to the yonko. The community as a whole needs to accept the fact that Whitebeard was nowhere near his prime. We already have a novel confirming current day Yonko being above him, and while novels aren’t word of god, they sure as hell carry more weight when the narrative supports it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Mar 5, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> The gap is quite clear. Big mom and Kaido have the best overall feats in the modern world. Even playing devils advocate and having akainu as stronger than Old beard (which I don’t), he did absolutely nothing that elevates him to be an equal to the yonko. The community as a whole needs to accept the fact that Whitebeard was nowhere near his prime. We already have a novel confirming current day Yonko being above him, and while novels aren’t word of god, they sure as hell carry more weight when the narrative supports it.


That's some selective reading if I ever seen it. Novels support them being ahead of him in *physical strength only*, while ironically *still *mentioning that he was the strongest pirate in the world.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 5, 2022)

KennethLT said:


> The gap is quite clear. Big mom and Kaido have the best overall feats in the modern world. Even playing devils advocate and having akainu as stronger than Old beard (which I don’t), he did absolutely nothing that elevates him to be an equal to the yonko. The community as a whole needs to accept the fact that Whitebeard was nowhere near his prime. We already have a novel confirming current day Yonko being above him, and while novels aren’t word of god, they sure as hell carry more weight when the narrative supports it.


Don't forget that Whitebeard had:
~ A Squard stabbing.
~ Many more stab wounds.
~ Canon and gunshot wounds.
~ He had suffered one or two heart attacks.
~ He had a magma hole in his chest.
~ Barely used haki.
~ And he was sick which was decimating his performance.
~ Even without half a face.
With all this two tapped Akainu.

But against that badly wounded and nerfed Whitebeard is that they defend the admirals.

Imagine Akainu couldn't see  that sick, wounded 6 and a half meter old geezer was coming from behind him even some marines warned him.

And the wankers believe that based on that is that the admirals stand a chance against Kaido lmao


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## Lawliet (Mar 5, 2022)

Post Yamato fight? 

Kaidou wins high to extreme difficulty. There's a reason why he's the strongest creature alive. Scabbards and rooftop fight is not enough to make him lose to anyone but Shanks, Mihawk, Akainu, and Dragon.


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## Yonko RedHair Shanks (Mar 5, 2022)

148 replies and 5 pages defending the indefensible.

Teach underling was outspeed by pre ts Marco.

Kaido speed blitz and one hit Aokiji.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MrAnalogies (Mar 5, 2022)

Kaido high dif.

A fresh kaido who just got out of bed mid difs.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Garcher (Mar 5, 2022)

Aokiji


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## Garcher (Mar 5, 2022)

Be realistic guys, Kaido WAS defeated multiple times in the past  and he is pretty tired at this point as well.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## featherine augustus (Mar 5, 2022)

Garcher said:


> Be realistic guys, Kaido WAS defeated multiple times in the past  and he is pretty tired at this point as well.


Luffy lost 4 times in same arc and will be the strongest by EOS ; Your point? 7 defeats are irrelevant when we don't know the circumstance or age of kaido when he lost ; for that matter apprentice kaido most likely lost to roger a bunch of times most likely


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## cry77 (Mar 5, 2022)

Chip Skylark said:


> That’s… just wrong. WB was the one that walked away from that exchange despite going into it severely handicapped.
> 
> Your other point is just a groundless presumption that should have no place in objective powerscaling.


He also walked into the exchange with a sucker punch from behind...

Their first match was way more representative, and it was pretty even until WB got a heart attack. 

It's some serious copium to consider WB "2 shotting" Akainu legit. If he could do that, he would have done it when Akainu intercepted his bisento and they had their first clash.  

Akainu and Old WB post Squardo were clearly on comparable levels, arguably with Akainu having the edge - since you cant just discount the chance of Oldbeard getting heart attacks.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 6, 2022)

cry77 said:


> He also walked into the exchange with a sucker punch from behind...
> 
> Their first match was way more representative, and it was pretty even until WB got a heart attack.
> 
> ...


There are plenty of exchanges where a character has been able to trade a single blow with, or stall someone notably more powerful than them.

Yamato & Kaido
Vista & Mihawk
Kidd & Big Mom
etc. etc.

The only reason you insist on that early and extremely brief exchange being more representative of the disparity between them despite WB decisively overpowering Akainu later on is clearly more driven by the narrative you want to push over there being an actually legitimate case for the argument.

Otherwise you'd apply the same logic to these other cases, but I'm sure it's no stretch to assume that you don't care as much about either Marco or Jozu's distractions even though it was said to be the reason for their loss.

Similarly doubt you'd use the same logic to argue that Yamato and Hybrid Kaido are on comparable levels. Why? Because quite frankly using an exchange that trivial to claim a definitive level of parity between two characters is total bullshit, and was quickly proven wrong when Kaido went on to demonstrate the level of power that could have quickly put Yamato down even though she was previously able to intercept his Kanabo.

The argument becomes especially more egregious when you base the argument off an exchange against a character that was not only injured, but emphasized to be severely weakened because of the illness he walked into the battle with.

I consider WB "2 shotting" Akainu legit because Mr. Red Dog was still unable to either get up or retaliate even after turning around and focusing entirely on his opponent.


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## forkandspoon (Mar 6, 2022)

Akoji turned into a dragon ball z themed popsicle


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Mar 6, 2022)

Admirals are all hype atm. Nothing concrete and they seem way less relevant in their own organization (Fleet Admiral, Gorosei, Imu) compared to the Yonko who are actual leaders of their crew.

Doesn't help that their portrayal against actual strong pirates have been iffy so far. 

Burden of proof is on them now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Mar 6, 2022)

Not worth arguing with people that completely discount the consistent effectiveness of a sneak attack that has been shown in this manga.

The Yonkou and Admirals have been mentioned together, compared to one another, and spoken of as the absolute top of the food chain several times in the manga. If we see a Yonkou and Admiral go toe to toe and they’re even, then we expect as much as they’re in *very *similar standing. WB reaped the benefits of getting a cheap shot on Akainu. The sheer magnitude of that attack would disorientate *any *character in the manga, leaving them vulnerable to taking more damage. Akainu was able to deal an extremely lethal blow in WB despite that in a straight up attack. In a top tier fight, *every attack counts*. You can’t just discount the portion of their fight where their exchanges were even and then argue “w-well I bet you don’t feel the same about case X, Y, or Z!!” That is not an argument. If you really want to call it one, it’s a dogshit one. We have a reason to assume a sizable disparity between the other examples of merely stalling a superior character. Sakazuki shows that *at the very least*, he was capable of matching WB blow for blow and even though he was defeated, he showed that he had the power and lethality to pour WB in the state that he was in before he died. Yamato was given the opportunity to prove that she could do this kind of damage from an open attack to Kaido, if she could, and she didn’t. Marco and Jozu had chances to prove that they could do that kind of damage to the Admirals, if they could, and they didn’t. We should know better by now. I’m not on any one side of the spectrum. I believe the manga has told us many times to expect close-knit fights between the Yonkou and Admirals. The arguments that either side is completely stronger that the other always tend to be pretty limp dicked.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 1


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## featherine augustus (Mar 6, 2022)

Kaido is a tier above aokiji ; Adv coc KKG is an island level attack and kaido took it like nothing

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 6, 2022)

Garcher said:


> Be realistic guys, Kaido WAS defeated multiple times in the past  and he is pretty tired at this point as well.



Probably not one on one, hence one on one you bet on Kaido. Want to add Kizaru to make it fairer for Aoikji?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Garcher (Mar 6, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Probably not one on one, hence one on one you bet on Kaido. Want to add Kizaru to make it fairer for Aoikji?


Current Kaido has already fought a gauntlet, it's no longer 1vs1.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 6, 2022)

Garcher said:


> Current Kaido has already fought a gauntlet, it's no longer 1vs1.



Kaido's battle with Luffy ended up being 1 v 1, as did his battle with Yamato. ITT he's fighting an Admiral who he'd probably take more seriously than Luffy.


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## Garcher (Mar 6, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kaido's battle with Luffy ended up being 1 v 1, as did his battle with Yamato. ITT he's fighting an Admiral who he'd probably take more seriously than Luffy.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 6, 2022)

Obviously, because you had issues conveying your point. Especially when I quoted you asking if you'd rather have Kizaru added to make it fairer for Aoikji. Then you go on about gauntlets for some reason.  

That said, would you kindly explain your point?


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## Garcher (Mar 6, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Obviously, because you had issues conveying your point. Especially when I quoted you asking if you'd rather have Kizaru added to make it fairer for Aoikji. Then you go on about gauntlets for some reason.
> 
> That said, would you kindly explain your point?


You should be able to figure this out yourself. It's not that hard.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 6, 2022)

Garcher said:


> You should be able to figure this out yourself. It's not that hard.


ELI5


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## Heart Over Blade (Mar 6, 2022)

Let's revisit this thread when Aokiji and most other admirals get taken out by Luffy's subordinates.

Anyone who has a problem with this can go blame Oda. You're kidding yourself if you  think Sanji and Zoro aren't fighting and beating an Admiral each before the story ends. Likely Yamato too considering she still hasn't peaked either.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 3 | Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Germa 66 (Mar 6, 2022)

Kaido wins against the only Admiral he can beat


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## Mihawk (Mar 6, 2022)

Aokiji is so fucking underrated these days man.

I'm reading a ton of "mid-diff"?? from serious posters no less.

Gtfo of here with that buffoonery  OL is lost these days

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 6, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Aokiji is so fucking underrated these days man.
> 
> I'm reading a ton of "mid-diff"?? from serious posters no less.
> 
> Gtfo of here with that buffoonery  OL is lost these days


People are starting to be enlightened. Yonko supremacy


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 7, 2022)

On side underrates the Admirals and the other side underrates Kaido.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 7, 2022)

Mihawk said:


> Aokiji is so fucking underrated these days man.
> 
> I'm reading a ton of "mid-diff"?? from serious posters no less.
> 
> Gtfo of here with that buffoonery  OL is lost these days



Just Yonk fans being wrong as always. Nothing new to see here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 7, 2022)

Thdyingbreed said:


> Aokiji isn’t beating a fresh Kaido that starts at full health.


Aokiji is not a good matchup for kaido, he ignores durablity,recovery

Reactions: Like 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 7, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Aokiji is not a good matchup for kaido, he ignores durablity,recovery



Like you ignore Kaido's abilities & capabilities.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 7, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like you ignore Kaido's abilities & capabilities.


Aokiji was sharing blows with akainu, and akainu has higher ap then kaido.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Baroxio (Mar 7, 2022)

Akainu only looks good because he was up against people with shit haki feats. Akainu has been stopped by numerous people, including Marco, Jinbei and Shanks. It also took him 10 days to defeat Aokiji despite Aokiji's ice being noted to have a weakness to fire, which Akainu's magma has been noted to surpass. Unless we want to say that Aokiji was jobbing against Ace (further decreasing Ace's potential standing - which I personally am okay with), then it's not a good look for Akainu's fabled attack potency that it took him 10 days and numerous grievous injuries before he could defeat a guy who he should theoretically hard counter twice over. 

Oh, but he took off part of Whitebeard's face! Yeah, and Squardo stabbed him clean through in the gut. Either Squardo has amazing attack potency or Whitebeard's defenses were in the toilet due to his bad health. At which point, Akainu's only notable feat is stabbing Jinbei through the gut...which, granted, is an awesome feat. And I'm not just saying that because I'm the number one investor in Jinbei coin.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Ushiromiya Battler (Mar 7, 2022)

Kaido beats Aokiji High diff.


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## JayK (Mar 8, 2022)

unrestrict the Disney villain and Aokiji still wins

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ssj2Hokage (Mar 8, 2022)

Kaido wins. A more damaged WB was able to defeating Akainu


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## trance (Mar 8, 2022)

Ssj2Hokage said:


> A more damaged BB was able to defeating Akainu


blackbeard never fought akainu


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## Ssj2Hokage (Mar 8, 2022)

trance said:


> blackbeard never fought akainu


i meant WB sorry


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 8, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> Aokiji was sharing blows with akainu, and akainu has higher ap then kaido.



And we know how Kaido stacks against Admirals because you said Akainu has higher ap, let me guess randomised calcs came up with your use?


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## Mihawk (Mar 8, 2022)

Baroxio said:


> Akainu only looks good because he was up against people with shit haki feats.


Bruh Haki wasn’t even fleshed out in MF. Arc was 10 years ago. WB Pirates had “shit Haki feats” yet they were still the best cre


Baroxio said:


> Akainu has been stopped by numerous people, including Marco, Jinbei and Shanks.


Out of the guys you listed, only Shanks was completely successful. Marco blocked him, and Jinbei was seconds away from getting turned into boiled fish broth if it wasn’t for Marco and vista.


Baroxio said:


> It also took him 10 days to defeat Aokiji despite Aokiji's ice being noted to have a weakness to fire, which Akainu's magma has been noted to surpass.


That’s not how it works. Aokiji’s output is equal to Akainu’s. Aokiji’s powers were never noted to have a weakness to fire. Ace cancelled our one attack.  Akainu’s element was noted to be superior to Aces, but no such mention was ever made regarding its superiority to Kuzan except for his meteors melting/breaking the ice that froze the waters surface.


Baroxio said:


> Unless we want to say that Aokiji was jobbing against Ace (further decreasing Ace's potential standing - which I personally am okay with), then it's not a good look for Akainu's fabled attack potency that it took him 10 days and numerous grievous injuries before he could defeat a guy who he should theoretically hard counter twice over.


Yeah that logic doesn’t work that way bro. Crocodile managed to counter Doflamingo’s attack. Doesn’t mean he had any advantage.


Baroxio said:


> Oh, but he took off part of Whitebeard's face! Yeah, and Squardo stabbed him clean through in the gut.


Akainu took off his face in combat. Squardo betrayed him as his son


Baroxio said:


> Either Squardo has amazing attack potency or Whitebeard's defenses were in the toilet due to his bad health.


OR WB simply didn’t see the betrayal coming. Nothing to do with Akainu’s potency. All the pirates were shocked 


Baroxio said:


> At which point, Akainu's only notable feat is stabbing Jinbei through the gut...which, granted, is an awesome feat. And I'm not just saying that because I'm the number one investor in Jinbei coin.


He also clashed equally with WB twice in direct combat and stalemated the remnants with nothing but fodder as support. That was after he raped Ivankov, Jinbei, Ace.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Germa 66 (Mar 8, 2022)

I think I like Borekiji more so he takes the win over Crydo


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## MYJC (Mar 8, 2022)

I don't know why or how but people are seriously underestimating Kaido now. 

He's considered the strongest pirate for a reason. Kaido wins.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Inferno Jewls (Mar 8, 2022)

people are seriously underestimating Aokiji

he's considered almost an equal to Akainu who is the strongest in the verse currently, Aokiji wins

Reactions: Winner 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 8, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And we know how Kaido stacks against Admirals because you said Akainu has higher ap, let me guess randomised calcs came up with your use?


He has the highest ap among devil fruit users. and kaido is a devil fruit user.


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## nyamad (Mar 8, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> He has the highest ap among devil fruit users. and kaido is a devil fruit user.


No his DF is among the highest AP, but Kaido doesn’t rely on his DF for AP, kaido relies on his COC and weapon.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 9, 2022)

GreenEggsAHam said:


> He has the highest ap among devil fruit users. and kaido is a devil fruit user.





nyamad said:


> No his DF is among the highest AP, but Kaido doesn’t rely on his DF for AP, kaido relies on his COC and weapon.



@nyamad corrected you and I just need to remind you that you're ignoring Kaido's abilities.


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## Hazard (Mar 9, 2022)

Admiral‘s > yonko‘s now. pretty obviouse.


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## BladeofTheMorning (Mar 9, 2022)

Kaido takes it. Difficulty? Extreme.
In my opinion, no admiral can take any Yonko 1V1. But that’s just me.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Mar 11, 2022)

Hazard said:


> Admiral‘s > yonko‘s now. pretty obviouse.



As obvious as Zoro is Ushimaru's son.


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## Chip Skylark (Mar 11, 2022)

BladeofTheMorning said:


> Kaido takes it. Difficulty? Extreme.
> In my opinion, no admiral can take any Yonko 1V1. But that’s just me.


Smart man


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## Hazard (Mar 11, 2022)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As obvious as Zoro is Ushimaru's son.


thats a mystery compared to it.


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