# Urahara vs Law



## Revan Reborn (Mar 10, 2016)

The intellect vs the surgeon of death 

Location: Marine ford
Knowledge: none
Distance:10 meters
Bloodlusted

S1: Urahara with only shikai
S2: Urahara with Bankai

Who wins?


----------



## Imagine (Mar 10, 2016)

Does Urahara get the Shikai Pachi scaling?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 10, 2016)

I see no reason for that yet

Not like he needs it though


----------



## Imagine (Mar 10, 2016)

Shambles.


----------



## KamiYasha (Mar 10, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Shambles.



Round 2: Urahara heals himself with "wierd ass name bankai"


----------



## Imagine (Mar 10, 2016)

He can heal from spatial manipulation? Scans pls.


----------



## KamiYasha (Mar 10, 2016)

Imagine said:


> He can heal from spatial manipulation? Scans pls.



On the way...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2016)

Urahara should lose round 1. Besides some inventions and kido i can't see what he would do. His shikai is not as hax or powerful enough to stop law's room shenanigans. 

If urahara's bankai is as hype as i think it is then he wins scene 2. The chap was fuzzy in terms of explanation tho.

He just keep reconstructing/healing his body and the area around him until he takes law apart. Law shouldn't be able to kill him(urahara literally had his eyes "killed" and he just fixed them back up to perfection).

No knowledge and urahara's bankai huge range help too.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 10, 2016)

This is one of the few people in Bleach that has a good counter to Law's ability.


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 10, 2016)

He can inflict spatial damage but can he heal it? He'd also have to watch out for shambles + Gamma Knife and MES (as we saw this very chapter on the enemy  )


----------



## Sablés (Mar 10, 2016)

Not a thing Law does will affect Urahara

split him apart and he'll just re-attach himself.

attack his organs? he'll remake them better than Doflamingo could ever dream of doing


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 10, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> This is one of the few people in Bleach that has a good counter to Law's ability.



Yeah man it's like urahara's bankai was made to beat law.

He can stitch up any injury and remake any wounded part of his body. You would literally have to one shot this dude or you're out of luck .


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 10, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Yeah man it's like urahara's bankai was made to beat law.
> 
> He can stitch up any injury and remake any wounded part of his body. You would literally have to one shot this dude or you're out of luck .



Pretty much. 

It also helps that he can modify his enemy as well, and nothing stops him from using kido while in bankai.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> It also helps that he can modify his enemy as well, and nothing stops him from using kido while in bankai.



Rig them up with some hax kido and set that shit off


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Not a thing Law does will affect Urahara
> 
> split him apart and he'll just re-attach himself.
> 
> attack his organs? he'll remake them better than Doflamingo could ever dream of doing



Not if he can't take the initial trauma. Law also could soulfuck him pending the location.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

>initial trauma

Did I seriously read that right?  Excluding just how desperate that sounds, you know this is Bleach right? Do you have any idea the kind of shit shinigami live through?

Soulfuck with whom?


----------



## Divell (Mar 11, 2016)

Urahara, too much Hax, even in Shikai nothing stops Kisuke from sealing Law's movements.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Random questoin...why does Urahara have to get into Laws room in the first place when he has ranged attacks?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

because law's range exceeds 10 meters and he's faster.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Lol, man, Law, Zoro, & Mihawk are the reasons I need to get up to date with OP


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

Law has pre-cog and teleportation. How is he getting tagged?


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Law has pre-cog and teleportation. How is he getting tagged?



Even Bach declares Urahara's "means" as something that can't be predicted, so I doubt pre-cog works.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 11, 2016)

^What? 

Urahara being considered an unpredictable force does NOT give him some omniscient ability to override pre-cog abilities. That's just..wow.


----------



## Byrd (Mar 11, 2016)

> Even Bach declares Urahara's "means" as something that can't be predicted, so I doubt pre-cog works.



Im sorry but this was hilarious


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

yare yare daze


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru becomes dumb with anything regarding Bleach.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Even Bach declares Urahara's "means" as something that can't be predicted, so I doubt pre-cog works.



Are you by any chance registered in Space Battles forums ?


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 11, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> He can inflict spatial damage but can he heal it? He'd also have to watch out for *shambles + Gamma Knife and MES (as we saw this very chapter on the enemy*  )



Wait, what ? Where ?


----------



## Xhominid (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Law has pre-cog and teleportation. How is he getting tagged?



That really doesn't stop other One Piece characters with it from being tagged themselves so Urahara can pretty much find a way past that.

If he can restructure the air to move faster and the buildings to make way for Grimmjow, I'm pretty sure Urahara will think of something when he sooner or later guesses Law can use Pre-Cog to some extent.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

Xhominid said:


> That really doesn't stop other One Piece characters with it from being tagged themselves so Urahara can pretty much find a way past that.
> 
> If he can restructure the air to move faster and the buildings to make way for Grimmjow, I'm pretty sure Urahara will think of something when he sooner or later guesses Law can use Pre-Cog to some extent.



What a ridiculous thing to say. Why the hell do you think that is? Could it be... because everyone else also has pre-cog??? It cancels out so Urahara does not magically acquire the same benefit.

Still doesn't explain how he's going to tag someone who can teleport.


----------



## sephseph (Mar 11, 2016)

is he really even going to teleport though? why would he even do that? it takes a lot of stamina from him

law can do nothing to hurt urahara in the end, so it's only a matter of time before he goes down


----------



## Tapion (Mar 11, 2016)

Haki cuffs? 

Haki cuffs


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

sephseph said:


> is he really even going to teleport though? why would he even do that? *it takes a lot of stamina from him*
> 
> law can do nothing to hurt urahara in the end, so it's only a matter of time before he goes down



Prove this.

What is Urahara's answer to MES?


----------



## Finalbeta (Mar 11, 2016)

Law is winning I guess


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

Why would Urahara need to tag Law, his Bankai is AoE that exceeds Askin's gift ball. Law is in range by default standards. Now how Urahara can use his powers offensively remains to be seen. He was able to  make own body stronger so he can potentially do the reverse to Law (he was doing something to Askin obviously) but it needs feats.

Defensively, Law can't touch him. Don't see what MES (assuming Law could get that in) would do either. He doesn't have the power to damage Urahara's heart and he can always remake it so long as Law is in range.

If it comes to a stamina battle, I'd side with Urahara for sure given characters on his level can last from days-months.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

He can remake his heart when he's dead? For him to remake it he's going to have to functioning and considering Law can push it out faster than he can react (and Law can teleport right behind him to do so) his counter is what?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> He can remake his heart *when he's dead?* For him to remake it he's going to have to functioning and considering Law can push it out faster than he can react (and Law can teleport right behind him to do so) his counter is what?



Just to make sure we're on the same page? Mes is the tech that allows Law to place hearts into cubes right? If he tries counter shock or stabbing it repeatedly, Kisuke only needs to repair it before he dies ad infinitum. Helps that for DC-Dura, Kisuke is marginally tougher so Law would find it difficult to achieve that much in the first place.

Unless you mean Urahara will die immediately after Law pulls out his heart which I'm skeptical the latter can even do considering how his power works.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Just to make sure we're on the same page? Mes is the tech that allows Law to place hearts into cubes right? If he tries counter shock or stabbing it repeatedly, Kisuke only needs to repair it before he dies ad infinitum. Helps that for DC-Dura, Kisuke is marginally tougher so Law would find it difficult to achieve that much in the first place.
> 
> Unless you mean Urahara will die immediately after Law pulls out his heart which I'm skeptical the latter can even do considering how his power works.



Correct. But you're saying some crazy stuff right now. Despite the fact that Urahara's organs are clearly far superior to that of an average human's, they are still only _proportionally_ tough in regards to his exterior durability. And with the +1 rule in regards to cutting/slicing attacks and blunt force it makes it even more likely that Law's attacks will have noticeable effect. Law will be able to harm him as his organs are still less durable than his exterior. From what we've seen of Mes, it knocks you unconscious the moment your heart is pushed out of your chest, in a moment of unconsciousness he's going to be able to repair his heart when Law swings at it at full throttle? Or when he applies Gamma Knife to to it? He'd be dead. That scenario is idealistic at best.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 11, 2016)

Why are you applying exterior durability to interior Stables? Stop fucking up the argument.


----------



## Dellinger (Mar 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Why would Urahara need to tag Law, his Bankai is AoE that exceeds Askin's gift ball. Law is in range by default standards. Now how Urahara can use his powers offensively remains to be seen. He was able to  make own body stronger so he can potentially do the reverse to Law (he was doing something to Askin obviously) but it needs feats.
> 
> Defensively, Law can't touch him. Don't see what MES (assuming Law could get that in) would do either. He doesn't have the power to damage Urahara's heart and he can always remake it so long as Law is in range.
> 
> If it comes to a stamina battle, I'd side with Urahara for sure given characters on his level can last from days-months.



Since when do Bleach characters last for days in battles?


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Correct. But you're saying some crazy stuff right now. Despite the fact that Urahara's organs are clearly far superior to that of an average human's, they are still only _proportionally_ tough in regards to his exterior durability. And with the +1 rule in regards to cutting/slicing attacks and blunt force it makes it even more likely that Law's attacks will have noticeable effect. Law will be able to harm him as his organs are still less durable than his exterior. From what we've seen of *Mes, it knocks you unconscious the moment your heart is pushed out of your chest,* in a moment of unconsciousness he's going to be able to repair his heart when Law swings at it at full throttle? Or when he applies Gamma Knife to to it? He'd be dead. That scenario is idealistic at best.



In , Smoker is conscious at least long enough to notice that his heart has been taken; and the speech bubble in bottom center panel seems to imply that he is even awake for a second or two after Law picks up his heart. This this would explain why doesn't actually fall over until the .


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

That's also because Smoker can react at Mach 1948


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> That's also because Smoker can react at Mach 1948


He is still conscious when his heart hits the ground. He can be Mach infinity; doesn't change the fact that he is clearly conscious for multiple seconds after his heart leaves his chest. Which stands in stark contradiction to your claim that _"Mes, it knocks you unconscious the moment your heart is pushed out of your chest" _

Those couple of seconds are crucial, as it's likely all Kisuke would need to stabilize himself. Even being slower than OP, Bleach is still MHS. 1 or 2 seconds is a long time; especially when Kisuke is basically taking a _free-action_.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

What is preventing Urahara from losing consciousness? His power isn't to _create_, it's to _restructure_ whatever he _touches_, how is he going to restructure a heart  which:

a) Isn't there 

and 

b) Isn't within his reach?  

Law creates a 2km sized Room -> Shambles (behind Urahara) -> MES -> Shambles (*Heart in hand*) -> Shambles (teleports to the outskirts of Room) he then proceeds to swing at his heart with megaton strikes... what then? Is he going to repair it from 2km away whilst unconscious? This is silly.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> What is preventing Urahara from losing consciousness? His power isn't to _create_, it's to _restructure_ whatever he _touches_, how is he going to restructure a heart  which:
> 
> a) Isn't there
> 
> ...



You don't think in 1-2 seconds he couldn't restructure his circulatory system; find a work-around for his lost heart, at least temporarily?


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

No. I do not think he can create a replacement for something as complicated as a heart with the time or not unless he can find his laboratory in 2 seconds. Repairing your eyes when they're still there =/= Creating a heart substitute in 2 seconds.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 11, 2016)

Sloth said:


> In , Smoker is conscious at least long enough to notice that his heart has been taken; and the speech bubble in bottom center panel seems to imply that he is even awake for a second or two after Law picks up his heart. This this would explain why doesn't actually fall over until the .



How a power that makes you restructure things gonna stop you from unconsciousness ? Even in 1-2 seconds being MHS ? 

It's Room > Shambles > Mes > Cut .


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> How a power that makes you restructure things gonna stop you from unconsciousness ? Even in 1-2 seconds being MHS ?
> 
> It's Room > Shambles > Mes > Cut .



I never took that to be an _effect_ of Mes, just a side-effect from the shock of such a traumatic event. So, repairing the damage quickly enough could, hypothetically, keep you from falling unconscious.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

Possibly, but to repair it surely he'll need to be in possession of it? And assuming bloodlust, why would Law (who can teleport the heart to himself) let Urahara get to it before him?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Correct. But you're saying some crazy stuff right now. Despite the fact that Urahara's organs are clearly far superior to that of an average human's, they are still only _proportionally_ tough in regards to his exterior durability. And with the +1 rule in regards to cutting/slicing attacks and blunt force it makes it even more likely that Law's attacks will have noticeable effect. Law will be able to harm him as his organs are still less durable than his exterior.



A negligible difference on the scale we're dealing with.

On that note? I never said Law wouldn't be able to harm him, only that it'd be more difficult.



> From what we've seen of Mes, it knocks you unconscious the moment your heart is pushed out of your chest, in a moment of unconsciousness he's going to be able to repair his heart when Law swings at it at full throttle? Or when he applies Gamma Knife to to it? He'd be dead. That scenario is idealistic at best.



Based on who? That joblord, Smoker?

Askin's power has incapacitated guys like Current Ichigo and Grimmjow (the latter was knocked out instantly) yet Urahara's not only remained conscious but _mobile_. His durability may be sketchy but his resilience is far more than what's required for Mes.

Also finding it immensely difficult to believe Law's going to get behind Kisuke, knock his heart out and then leave without the latter reacting to him. 



White Hawk said:


> Since when do Bleach characters last for days in battles?



Since FKT Ichigo  could fight  3 months in Dangai.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

Anyway, Urahara doesn't have a way to win reliably until we see what he can do offensively. If law wins (and I'm leaning towards that conclusion atm), that will be the reason.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 11, 2016)

> Based on who? That joblord, Smoker?
> 
> Askin's power has incapacitated guys like Current Ichigo and Grimmjow (the latter was knocked out instantly) yet Urahara's not only remained conscious but _mobile_. His durability may be sketchy but his resilience is far more than what's required for Mes.



Well, yes. Probably everyone else also because without your heart you cannot exactly function. It's not really a matter of durability. If your heart goes missing outside of Room you die. In Room instead of dying you fall unconscious.



> Also finding it immensely difficult to believe Law's going to get behind Kisuke, knock his heart out and then leave without the latter reacting to him.



Why? The initial teleport should catch him off guard, Law is faster so he lands Mes, then he instantly teleports away. If Urahara cannot react to the initial Mes then it's all over from there. All Law has to do is use his eyes and pre-cog may help also. There is no speed involved for Law. So in the time it will require Urahara to possible move 1m to attack Law back, Law has to move 0m to disappear. Is Urahara going to cover 2km to get his heart back before Law destroys it? Unlikely.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Possibly, but to repair it surely he'll need to be in possession of it? And assuming bloodlust, why would Law (who can teleport the heart to himself) let Urahara get to it before him?


I'm still of the opinion that he could restructure his whole circulatory system; bypassing the need for a traditional heart, at least temporarily. Organs are not complex in the bleach-verse, especially not to it's scientists (IE Kurotsuchi and Szayel).

Like Liquid said, we don't know the offensive capabilities of his Bankai yet, and until we do the edge probably does go to Law.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

God Movement said:


> Well, yes. Probably everyone else also because without your heart you cannot exactly function. It's not really a matter of durability. If your heart goes missing outside of Room you die. In Room instead of dying you fall unconscious.



Man nooo. You can't universally equalize something like this because everyone will react to it differently depending on their endurance/tolerance.

Whitebeard had a magma fist where his vital organs should be and had half his brain vaporized to nothing yet he still goes on to give Teach the beating of his life and dies standing. You think he's going to react the same way to Mes as Smoker or having his heart literally ripped out of him? Not a chance and there are more examples of this in fiction.

What matters here  is the debilitating effects of Mes' feats and what we've seen is that it can knock someone of Smoker's endurance out cold. Deathdealing has shown more potent feats and Urahara in turn has fought against it effectively. 





> Why? The initial teleport should catch him off guard, Law is faster so he lands Mes, then he instantly teleports away. If Urahara cannot react to the initial Mes then it's all over from there. All Law has to do is use his eyes and pre-cog may help also. There is no speed involved for Law. So in the time it will require Urahara to possible move 1m to attack Law back, Law has to move 0m to disappear. Is Urahara going to cover 2km to get his heart back before Law destroys it? Unlikely.



Because the steps Law has to go through (room -> teleport -> stab -> grab heart -> teleport) isn't going to exceed (Bankai -> reconstruction). I'll remind you that Urahara's reconstruction is ranged just like Law's so he won't actually have to catch him and it is equally possible that Law will react negatively to having his arms suddenly dissected and back off. Law isn't a machine and it will actually be expected as he has CoO and would distance himself than charge head on. At least until he figures out what Kisuke's actually doing.

Speed-wise? You're talking a negligible difference considering Urahara's perceptive enough to react to Aizen's evolved forms which would also be in the quadruple digit machs.


Like I said before though? Urahara's shown jack squat for an attack so I won't go any further than this.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

How is pre-cog any better against Urahara than literally being able to see into the future? 

Hardy, har, har, & bashing isn't a rebuttal, and if an actual point is made, I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong. In this case, we are talking about someone who's resources can't even be predicted by someone who can see into the future and is considered a god. What am I missing?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> How is pre-cog any better against Urahara than literally being able to see into the future?
> 
> Hardy, har, har, & bashing isn't a rebuttal, and if an actual point is made, I have no problem admitting that I'm wrong. In this case, we are talking about someone who's resources can't even be predicted by someone who can see into the future and is considered a god. What am I missing?



You took  that statement so out of context it hurts, man.


----------



## Tapion (Mar 11, 2016)

Prove:

Urahara can see into the future.
Bach can't predict Urahara.

das better


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> You took  that statement so out of context it hurts, man.



Thanks for 0 contribution Liquid. 

From what I recall, each of the 5 WP have a certain trait that Bach can't predict. 

If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about it. I only read each chapter once, and don't spend as much time analyzing things unless I don't have shit to do.



> Prove:
> 
> Urahara can see into the future.
> Bach can't predict Urahara.
> ...



I NEVER said that Urahara could see into the future.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Urahara's "means" are just as unknown as Ichigo's potential, Kenpachi's strength, etc. The difference is that when Askin talks about Urahara, he states that Urahara always has a plan for everything, regardless of how much his opponent's may prepare for him, he will still find a way around it. 

That is Intel from Bach, who's Almight sees into the future, understands whatever it sees, and automates a counter.


----------



## Tapion (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> I NEVER said that Urahara could see into the future.



Comprehension failure on my part.


----------



## Tapion (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Urahara's "means" are just as unknown as Ichigo's potential, Kenpachi's strength, etc. The difference is that when Askin talks about Urahara, he states that Urahara always has a plan for everything, regardless of how much his opponent's may prepare for him, he will still find a way around it.
> 
> That is Intel from Bach, who's Almight sees into the future, understands whatever it sees, and automates a counter.



Think its more along the lines of he can create counters and solve problems using trinkets and invention, thus its hard to predict how he'l fight in combat. 

This is his Unknown means. His abilities to outmaneuver his opponents by perpetually adapting his battle strategy. Furthermore, the Intel isn't so much for Bach, but for his men. While in SS Bach did nothing and only built up power to take the Zero squad. He would need his men to be well informed. His statement about Unpredictability only apply to his soldiers.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Tapion said:


> Comprehension failure on my part.


No problem. 



Tapion said:


> Think its more along the lines of he can create counters and solve problems using trinkets and invention, thus its hard to predict how he'l fight in combat.
> 
> This is his Unknown means. His abilities to outmaneuver his opponents by perpetually adapting his battle strategy.



That is the way I took it at first too; however, Askin says twice that he is talking about battle ability, and in battle, Urahara can't be prepared for. If this was the opinion of Askin or another SR, then I'd agree that it is due to smarts, inventions, etc. 

The thing is that Askin is simply relaying the information received by Bach. We know Bach can see well into the future, yet he still considers Urahara's "means" as something that can't be prepared for....that coming from a guy that sees the outcome of fights and events before they even happen.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Urahara's "means" are just as unknown as Ichigo's potential, Kenpachi's strength, etc. The difference is that when Askin talks about Urahara, he states that Urahara always has a plan for everything, regardless of how much his opponent's may prepare for him, he will still find a way around it.
> 
> That is Intel from Bach, who's Almight sees into the future, understands whatever it sees, and automates a counter.



Urahara soloes fiction if he gets prep going by your logic .  Because if you can't see his resources then obviously he trumps over you, right ?

Seriously, shut the fuck up m8, even people arguing for Urahara are trying to tell you how much spergbattles the argument of " To Ywach, Urahara is x and so he should be to anyone who has pre-cog " . Ywach can't see what Urahara might do, big deal, isn't gonna be useful to a guy with battle pre-cog .



Sloth said:


> I'm still of the opinion that he *could restructure his whole circulatory system; bypassing the need for a traditional heart*, at least temporarily. Organs are not complex in the bleach-verse, especially not to it's scientists (IE Kurotsuchi and Szayel).



Way too much fanfiction there m8 . 



> Like Liquid said, we don't know the offensive capabilities of his Bankai yet, and until we do the edge probably does go to Law.



Agreed . As of now Law has an advantage because Urahara didn't show all he can do to offensively harm and in what level is his regenerative ability . But if Urahara only improves in offensive ability, he'd still lose because Law's faster and has pre-cog, it'd be Room > Shambles > Mes > Cut .

Not to mention that Law can actually take Benihime(The one in Urahara's hand) away from Urahara with Scan .


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

> Urahara soloes fiction if he gets prep going by your logic . Because if you can't see his resources then obviously he trumps over you, right ?
> 
> Seriously, shut the fuck up m8, even people arguing for Urahara are trying to tell you how much spergbattles the argument of " To Ywach, Urahara is x and so he should be to anyone who has pre-cog " . Ywach can't see what Urahara might do, big deal, isn't gonna be useful to a guy with battle pre-cog .



Calm down internet gangster, don't grow a larger pair of balls just because you're not allowed to get your ass beat from behind your computer. 

Also, no, Urahara wouldn't auto-win all of his fights because we've seen that he can be beaten if someone's stats are just far superior to his. 

You don't have shit to counter what I said, so your response is "Hardy har, people who are going for Urahara don't agree with you". 

It is funny because before that I was told, "Prove Bach can't predict Urahara; and I'm sure that if I couldn't prove that then you and everyone else would have taken it as proof that pre-cog would work. Now that we see Bach can't predict Urahara, you don't have anything to say so you resort to talking shit.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> The thing is that Askin is simply relaying the information received by Bach. We know Bach can see well into the future, yet he still considers Urahara's "means" as something that can't be prepared for....that coming from a guy that sees the outcome of fights and events before they even happen.



If Bach is warning his underlings about something, he isn't going to speak from his perspective. What he meant was that his men would not be able to predict his tactics, should they encounter him. 

Urahara's _"Unknown Means"_ is as insignificant and irrelevant to Bach as Kenpachi's "Fighting Strength" or Ichibee's _"Wisdom"_. 



Back to the matter at hand; I think we need to take into account just . He's mid attack in that scan, and his finger still don't have time to fall away before they begin mending themselves.

If Kisuke gets even one thread attached to his heart,  should allow him to connect it to himself through the terrain, just like he did with Grim's hand.


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Sloth said:


> If Bach is warning his underlings about something, he isn't going to speak from his perspective. What he meant was that his men would not be able to predict his tactics, should they encounter him.
> 
> Urahara's _"Unknown Means"_ is as insignificant and irrelevant to Bach as Kenpachi's "Fighting Strength" or Ichibee's _"Wisdom"_.
> 
> ...




Now this is an actual good point.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 11, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Calm down internet gangster, don't grow a larger pair of balls just because you're not allowed to get your ass beat from behind your computer.



Fucker thinks I talk like that because I think I'm protected by a computer . I'd talk like that with anyone with that level of spergbattles stupidity except for my mom and my boss .



> Also, no, Urahara wouldn't auto-win all of his fights because we've seen that he can be beaten if someone's stats are just far superior to his.



So, anyone with comparable stats gonna lose ? lol .



> You don't have shit to counter what I said, so your response is "Hardy har, people who are going for Urahara don't agree with you".



Thing is that Law has the means to kill Urahara, as Urahara has to kill Law, Law has a slight advantage in speed, further amplified with pre-cog, the range to stay out of Urahara's attacks and still attack . Law can also take away Benihime from Urahara, and I don't think Urahara has regenerated against attacks that didn't harm him but I won't argue this part because it'd be fan fiction to conclude if his cuts are going to cut Urahara in multiple ways or not .



> It is funny because before that I was told, "Prove Bach can't predict Urahara; and I'm sure that if I couldn't prove that then you and everyone else would have taken it as proof that pre-cog would work. Now that we see Bach can't predict Urahara, you don't have anything to say so you resort to talking shit.



What ? You're complaining about what ? Burden of proof ? Ywach wank ? Seriously : what ? Ywach can't predict Urahara's resources ... So ? Urahara has anti-pre-cog abilities now ? No, just means Ywach can't predict Urahara's resources, Ichigo's ... Potential Kenpachi's ... Something and other guys' something . I'm still not understanding how in the fucking blue hell is that going to help him here, as a matter of fact no one in this thread and with more than two brain cells is able to understand why it would help Urahara .


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 11, 2016)

Sloth stop with the fan fiction about Urahara being able to reconstruct something that isn't there.

GM stop making Law look like an unstoppable force. Battle rarely goes likethat . 

Stables stop trying to say someone can function without heart by having higher endurance. Its unbecoming. 

Hamaru, just shut up.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 11, 2016)

Go die Dastan


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

> Fucker thinks I talk like that because I think I'm protected by a computer . I'd talk like that with anyone with that level of spergbattles stupidity except for my mom and my boss


Yeah, when it is online. 



> So, anyone with comparable stats gonna lose ? lol .


I NEVER said that. I was pointing out that my stance was different than what you're making it sound like. 



> hing is that Law has the means to kill Urahara, as Urahara has to kill Law, Law has a slight advantage in speed, further amplified with pre-cog, the range to stay out of Urahara's attacks and still attack . Law can also take away Benihime from Urahara, and I don't think Urahara has regenerated against attacks that didn't harm him but I won't argue this part because it'd be fan fiction to conclude if his cuts are going to cut Urahara in multiple ways or not .


My initial point was that Urahara has a good counter for Law. Liquid pointed out the speed difference, and I didn't argue against it. I didn't argue what Urahara could regenerate against either since I was going to wait until we seen more from him. 



> What ? You're complaining about what ? Burden of proof ? Ywach wank ? Seriously : what ? Ywach can't predict Urahara's resources ... So ? Urahara has anti-pre-cog abilities now ? No, just means Ywach can't predict Urahara's resources, Ichigo's ... Potential Kenpachi's ... Something and other guys' something . I'm still not understanding how in the fucking blue hell is that going to help him here, as a matter of fact no one in this thread and with more than two brain cells is able to understand why it would help Urahara .



Wait, what? 

This has nothing to do with Bach "wank" or me complaining about burden of proof. This is about the Almighty being superior than Pre-cog that has been shown by Law from what has been shown or stated. IF the Almighty really can't predict Urahara's means, then Law sure as hell won't be able to. 

That doesn't mean that people with better foreshadowing feats can't predict Urahara, but it doesn't mean those with inferior foreshadowing shouldn't be able to.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 11, 2016)

Magina how much bribe UD received from you to not ban you from OBD?


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 11, 2016)

Sherlōck, -_- .....

no


----------



## Sablés (Mar 11, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> Stables stop trying to say someone can function without heart by having higher endurance. Its unbecoming.



I'm not saying you can function without a heart just by having high endurance

I'm saying endurance is high because you can function without a heart


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 12, 2016)

Stables, go back to school & learn how heart works.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 12, 2016)

Dastan this might come as a surprise to you but in fiction

people don't always die when they're killed


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 12, 2016)

I'll admit the circulitroy restructure is a stretch, but I think it's a bit much to call it fanfic. 

Anyway, Mes doesn't send your heart flying out of your chest; Smoker's only fell a foot or too behind him. With MHS+ reflexes there is no way in hell Kiskue's threads don't grab his heart before it's left his chest. With those kind of reflexes, he should literally feel it slide every inch out of his chest. 

Not sure what happens after that. If Law teleports without noticing the threads; would he take Urhahara with him, or just sever the threads?


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 12, 2016)

well, law pulling someone's heart isn't really fatal, it's still just an advanced form of his room slash.
it's a hella dangerous tenchnique, but your heart will still function, as can be seen on smoker and law's fight.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 12, 2016)

unless it's a different move from what i'm thinking.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 12, 2016)

Shut up Zenath. 


Sherlōck said:


> Magina how much bribe UD received from you to not ban you from OBD?



Why are you still breathing?


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Mar 12, 2016)

Shut up, filth who don't know shit.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 12, 2016)

Why so cancer?


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 12, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Dastan this might come as a surprise to you but in fiction
> 
> people don't always die when they're killed



Who do you think you are? Oda? 



Imagine said:


> Why are you still breathing?



To see you suffer.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Mar 12, 2016)

Hamaru said:


> Yeah, when it is online.



M8, you just want to use the "Oh you're rude on the internet but you have no balls in real life " argument, and you don't fucking know me, you can't prove it either way and I can't prove it either way, just drop it . It's childish . Did you see me saying "I'd kick your ass " ? No right ? Wanna know why ? Because I don't fucking know if I can, and that doesn't really matter to the argument at fucking all . All that you're saying is that if someone was being rude to you, you'd be childish enough to start a fist fight .




> I NEVER said that. I was pointing out that my stance was different than what you're making it sound like.



You implied by saying that someone having "far better stats" would win against Urahara . And didn't mention any other form of power that would trump Urahara . BFR to a dimension, BFR to space/black hole, oxygen removal(Kenpachi was almost killed by going to space, so it makes me think that Bleach characters need oxygen), conceptual hax(Ichibe's for an example), speed stealing, sealing him or his movements . That's from the top of my head, all of that would work . You mentioned only superior stats.



> My initial point was that Urahara has a good counter for Law. Liquid pointed out the speed difference, and I didn't argue against it. I didn't argue what Urahara could regenerate against either since I was going to wait until we seen more from him.



Exactly, I didn't say you said that he would regenerate or not, I said I wouldn't get into that matter because newsflash: we don't fucking know it . 



> Wait, what?
> 
> This has nothing to do with Bach "wank" or me complaining about burden of proof. This is about the Almighty being superior than Pre-cog that has been shown by Law from what has been shown or stated. IF the Almighty really can't predict Urahara's means, then Law sure as hell won't be able to.



Stop it right there . All those things that Almighty can't predict are conceptual, so there's a good chance that Almighty can't predict the conceptual part of " What Urahara will bring to play " . It has nothing to do with predicting his actions, more like predicting his toys . As far as I know " Fighting Strength ", " Wisdom", "Reiatsu", "Means" and "Latent Ability " are _*all*_ conceptual things .



> That doesn't mean that people with better foreshadowing feats can't predict Urahara, but it doesn't mean those with inferior foreshadowing shouldn't be able to.



It's not foreshadowing, it's battle pre-cog, and there's no such thing as stronger or better pre-cog, pre-cog is pre-cog and there's no judging criteria to why would be better(Save for the more details it gives) .

Someone who can predict years into the future has a better foreshadowing feat ? Maybe, by your logic, but is it really useful in a battle ? Someone who can predict what will happen in 20 minutes has a worse foreshadowing feat ? Maybe, by your logic, but it's useful in battle . And Urahara is unpredictable in his means, meaning that his actions are still very predictable . Generally pre-cog can only be fucked up by time-related powers, and in this case we see that neither of those have anything like that, that's just dumb hype from Kubo saying that those people are variable in what they can do in a battle . Just that . Doesn't mean that you can't use haki(Haki is a will based system, different from anything in Bleach, which predicts even a MACHINE'S WILL,  and has nothing to do with the almighty's pre-cog, and even someone with conventional pre-cog can see the future in any time scale wouldn't be blocked because " One conceptual part of Urahara can't be predicted by someone inverse ") .


----------



## Hamaru (Mar 12, 2016)

> M8, you just want to use the "Oh you're rude on the internet but you have no balls in real life " argument, and you don't fucking know me, you can't prove it either way and I can't prove it either way, just drop it . It's childish . Did you see me saying "I'd kick your ass " ? No right ? Wanna know why ? Because I don't fucking know if I can, and that doesn't really matter to the argument at fucking all . All that you're saying is that if someone was being rude to you, you'd be childish enough to start a fist fight .


Just a difference in upbringing. Its dead now though. 



> You implied by saying that someone having "far better stats" would win against Urahara . And didn't mention any other form of power that would trump Urahara . BFR to a dimension, BFR to space/black hole, oxygen removal(Kenpachi was almost killed by going to space, so it makes me think that Bleach characters need oxygen), conceptual hax(Ichibe's for an example), speed stealing, sealing him or his movements . That's from the top of my head, all of that would work . You mentioned only superior stats.


If we assume that Bach's statement applied to the SR that he gave power too, then it would seem as if none of the haxx shown by the SR would guarantee a win against Urahara. Beyond that, I didn't find the need to sit and think about all of the ways he might be able to take an L. I was just clearing up that I do think he can be beaten, and saying "by someone with far better stats" was just the easiest response. 



> Stop it right there . All those things that Almighty can't predict are conceptual, so there's a good chance that Almighty can't predict the conceptual part of " What Urahara will bring to play " . It has nothing to do with predicting his actions, more like predicting his toys . As far as I know " Fighting Strength ", " Wisdom", "Reiatsu", "Means" and "Latent Ability " are all conceptual things


When talking about Urahara, Askin mainly focused on his ability to overcome whatever he is faced with and strategies. There was no mention of inventions. That is just a box the Forums put him in, not what the manga suggest. 



> It's not foreshadowing, it's battle pre-cog, and there's no such thing as stronger or better pre-cog, pre-cog is pre-cog and there's no judging criteria to why would be better(Save for the more details it gives) .
> 
> Someone who can predict years into the future has a better foreshadowing feat ? Maybe, by your logic, but is it really useful in a battle ? Someone who can predict what will happen in 20 minutes has a worse foreshadowing feat ? Maybe, by your logic, but it's useful in battle . And Urahara is unpredictable in his means, meaning that his actions are still very predictable . Generally pre-cog can only be fucked up by time-related powers, and in this case we see that neither of those have anything like that, that's just dumb hype from Kubo saying that those people are variable in what they can do in a battle . Just that . Doesn't mean that you can't use haki(Haki is a will based system, different from anything in Bleach, which predicts even a MACHINE'S WILL, and has nothing to do with the almighty's pre-cog, and even someone with conventional pre-cog can see the future in any time scale wouldn't be blocked because " One conceptual part of Urahara can't be predicted by someone inverse ")



I'll just try and simplify this. Lets say battle pre-cog is battle pre-cog despite how much further one person can see than the other. The difference is that, in Bach's case, he doesn't just see into the future. It is his ability to understand what he sees and then have the ability to cancel it out. IF Bach's words apply to himself as well as the SR, then Urahara's strategies can't be predicted. It was that trait that Askin talked about. It was Urahara's strategies that Askin pointed out. Not gadgets, toys, inventions, etc. So if Bach can't predict what Urahara is going to do, then that just means whomever fights him will have to win through the ability to react. 

The only way we can say that Law or anyone else can foresee the tactics/strategies Urahara would come up with is if they have a feat where they were able to predict the actions of someone that was considered unpredictable by pre-cog standards. 

An example would be like how the sharingan started off in part 1 of the manga. When we seen the difference between the pre-cog of a 2t and 3t sharingan.


----------



## Bernkastel (Mar 12, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> well, law pulling someone's heart isn't really fatal, it's still just an advanced form of his room slash.
> it's a hella dangerous tenchnique, but your heart will still function, as can be seen on smoker and law's fight.



True.
Though nothing stops Law from smashing the heart once it's out


----------



## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Mar 12, 2016)

I highly doubt the statements about Urahara's unpredictable means is to be taken to imply he is so unconventional that precog won't work. That doesnt make any sense. 

The war potentials were formed before juha fully awoke his power. At the time juha first mentioned the war potentials he was weakened, and could not see into the future. 

It wasn't until later  that he awakened his "omniscience"


----------



## Keishin (Mar 12, 2016)

Lol Urahara's bankai is the perfect counter to Law's power...


----------



## Pocalypse (Mar 12, 2016)

What makes people think Law can get Urahara's heart in the first place? Law has to physically stab someone for that, right? There's no way he can do Mes from long range. Urahara can deconstruct and reconstruct himself for speed gains if Law even comes close to him to dodge or swat him away. Urahara ain't no Smoker.


----------



## Edward Nygma (Mar 12, 2016)

Pocalypse said:


> What makes people think Law can get Urahara's heart in the first place? Law has to physically stab someone for that, right? There's no way he can do Mes from long range. Urahara can deconstruct and reconstruct himself for speed gains if Law even comes close to him to dodge or swat him away. Urahara ain't no Smoker.


The argument is that Law is so much faster than Urahara that he can just teleport behind him, Mes, then fuck off a mile down the road out Uhraha' range. Game over.

At least that's what I've gathered.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 12, 2016)

Read the posts man

Law can teleport anywhere with 2 kms so distance isn't a problem.


----------



## Pocalypse (Mar 12, 2016)

Sloth said:


> The argument is that Law is so much faster than Urahara that he can just teleport behind him, Mes, then fuck off a mile down the road out Uhraha' range. Game over.
> 
> At least that's what I've gathered.



Well that's bullshit. The way that sounds it's like a no-diff fight for Law.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 12, 2016)

But why is that in itself bullshit? Does it have to be anything BUT that at this point? Law's fights have no in between. It's either he stomps or he gets stomped. That's the nature of his powers, or at the very least it appears that way.


----------



## Revan Reborn (Mar 12, 2016)

So, what stopped law from teleporting behind mingo and pulling out his heart. The law that i'm hearing from you guys, could beat Garp and Mingo. But plot is the reason why he doesn't.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 12, 2016)

1) It wouldn't work on Urahara to begin with
2) One Piece characters also have CoO so they'd see him coming
3) Haki appears to mitigate Law's ability to an extent 
4) Argument from belief isn't an argument at all


----------



## Revan Reborn (Mar 12, 2016)

Liquid said:


> 1) It wouldn't work on Urahara to begin with
> 2) One Piece characters also have CoO so they'd see him coming
> 3) Haki appears to mitigate Law's ability to an extent
> 4) Argument from belief isn't an argument at all



Only just remembered that some haki users have CoO.
I was trying to convey that law is argued to be more OP than what he really is.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 12, 2016)

Nothing GM has said is a lie or anything. Law is quite capable of implementing maneuvers like that and his matches (as they've been shown) are indeed stomp or get stomped.

Urahara will be no different. Either he can win with early on or he has no chance. That will depend on what Kisuke has to show in the upcoming chapters. 

Was it really too much to ask to wait for Urahara's fight to end, anyway?


----------



## Revan Reborn (Mar 12, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Nothing GM has said is a lie or anything. Law is quite capable of implementing maneuvers like that and his matches (as they've been shown) are indeed stomp or get stomped.
> 
> Urahara will be no different. Either he can win with early on or he has no chance. That will depend on what Kisuke has to show in the upcoming chapters.
> 
> Was it really too much to ask to wait for Urahara's fight to end, anyway?



I assumed it had ended with the heart. 
But if i'm wrong i'll agree that it should of been made later.


----------



## Stermor (Mar 13, 2016)

can't urahara not just reconstruct his heart from whatever material arround ? his eyes were damaged and well you can be sure he would have lost eye fluid/blood/tissue.. he cleary doesn't require the same materials to reconstruct something.. its that or he pretty much knows where every molecule of his body is/was.. 

i'm not sure which one is scarier. but it really makes me doubt law stealing his heart is going to work..


----------



## Keishin (Mar 13, 2016)

Exactly. Law couldn't even take Doflamingo out. Urahara is not only powerful but he has a Counter to Law's ability...


----------



## God Movement (Mar 13, 2016)

- Haki is a counter for Law's ability
- This is why Doflamingo was not beaten instantly
- What part of this don't you understand


----------



## Keishin (Mar 13, 2016)

No, that's something you just pulled out of your ass right now. Law's ability works on seastone cuffs for example so haki is not, never was and will never be a "counter" to the ability.


Haki is just willpower that exists within all living things.


----------



## Keishin (Mar 13, 2016)

God Movement said:


> You don't even know what the hell is coming out of your mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes, Haki Can't stand up to his ability. Thanks.
The discussion was over the moment I posted that.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 13, 2016)

Tashigi's Haki can't.



> Your Haki can't stand up to his ability!!!



Implies that there IS a level of Haki that can stand up to his ability. Otherwise he would have said "Haki cannot stand up to his ability". But I assume you're trolling now so I'm going to neg your bitchazz.


----------



## Keishin (Mar 13, 2016)

No, that doesn't in any shape or form imply anything like that when haki far more powerful than her couldn't either.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 13, 2016)

Is that why Doflamingo was clashing his strings with Law's sword inside his Room? Is that why Smoker was clashing weapons with Law's sword inside his Room?

Please go away.


----------



## Keishin (Mar 13, 2016)

Only a fool would go around saying "haki can counter" and "haki can't counter" the ability rofl.. Nothing was ever implied so stop.


----------



## God Movement (Mar 13, 2016)

There are levels to the quality of ones Haki. Tashigi is a poverty tier Haki user, Law is not. Smoker is not. Doflamingo is not. Urahara in this argument has even less Haki than Tashigi. Which is zero.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 13, 2016)

Keishin is trying to grasp at straw that isn't there. Its pathetic. Stop trying & drown already.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 13, 2016)

Vergo fucking beat Law the last time they fought per Doflamingo's own words, with his full body haki


----------



## Dellinger (Mar 13, 2016)

Law was a child and didn't use his fruit.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 14, 2016)

White Hawk said:


> Since when do Bleach characters last for days in battles?


A literally powerless mildly superhuman Uryu had enough stamina to run around dodging arrows from his dad nonstop for over a day


----------



## Imagine (Mar 14, 2016)

Holy shit it's Regi. 

Gtfo Regi.


----------



## Regicide (Mar 14, 2016)

You first


----------



## Xhominid (Mar 14, 2016)

God Movement said:


> There are levels to the quality of ones Haki. Tashigi is a poverty tier Haki user, Law is not. Smoker is not. Doflamingo is not. Urahara in this argument has even less Haki than Tashigi. Which is zero.



Why the hell are we even having this argument when Haki is pretty much the same as Reishi/Chakra since Luffy's Gear 4th overtaxes on it like it's energy?

Haki can keep it's abilities but let's not pretend Haki is suddenly that much different than typical power sources or levels.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 14, 2016)

Because it actually isn't the same.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 15, 2016)

Get a room you two.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 15, 2016)

People still equalizing haki in 2016


----------



## Dr. White (Mar 15, 2016)

Liquid said:


> People still equalizing haki in 2016



Only Nanatsu no Taizai


----------



## sasykei (Mar 15, 2016)

You dont even have to equalize haki because that just makes Law practically not have an ability. Uraharas bankai however is a good substitution. He won't lose from Law 'cutting' him which already makes this fight not a "boohoo its either stomp or get stomped."


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 15, 2016)

Let's go back to the beginning.



Liquid said:


> If it comes to a stamina battle, I'd side with Urahara for sure given characters on his level can last from days-months.





Liquid said:


> Since FKT Ichigo  could fight  3 months in Dangai.



 after about an afternoon(?) of fighting enemies who were clearly his inferiors.

You're saying that FKT Ichigo has about a thousand times as much stamina *despite using a bankai the entire time* as FKT Aizen?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 15, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Surely you weren't expecting to not get called out on this.
> 
> Ichigo and his zanpakuto relationship is *fucking weird*. There's no instance of any Bleach character performing at a remotely relevant level to support your statement.



Don't see why that matters. Method used was Jinzen and the fact that Isshin used Ichigo bleeding in the real world as confirmation that the FGT "training" began means its a natural occurrence. Not to mention Ichigo's appearance mirrors the tears he received from zangetsu.

Also "no instance"? Isshin was right there supporting him with a device that actively drained his reiatsu.



And permission granted


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 15, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Don't see why that matters. Method used was Jinzen and the fact that Isshin used Ichigo bleeding in the real world as confirmation that the FGT "training" began means its a natural occurrence. Not to mention Ichigo's appearance mirrors the tears he received from zangetsu.



Ichigo has explicitly held his bankai not-bankai I-gave-up-trying-to-pay-attention-thingy for hilariously long periods of time before and is the only one to do so in the series, Jinzen training aside.

You cannot apply his wonky BNBIGUTTPAT's stamina to his peers.



Liquid said:


> Also "no instance"? Isshin was right there supporting him with a device that actively drained his reiatsu.



Something that .

Remember we saw/heard what was a barely VC-level Ichigo in SS wipe out a mob that turned out to be the *entire* 11th Division, minus the named four. And that's supposedly the strongest group of nameless fodder in the G13.

Which brings us back to:



Kenpachi TZ said:


> Ichigo and his zanpakuto relationship is fucking weird. There's no instance of any Bleach character performing at a remotely relevant level to support your statement.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 15, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> Get a room you two.


Shut the fuck up.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Mar 15, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Something that .



It takes a group of fodder to do that for like, a day or less. Isshin did it for 3 months continuously after he had already fought Aizen and gotten his ass kicked.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 15, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Ichigo has explicitly held his bankai not-bankai I-gave-up-trying-to-pay-attention-thingy for hilariously long periods of time before and is the only one to do so in the series, Jinzen training aside.
> 
> You cannot apply his wonky BNBIGUTTPAT's stamina to his peers.



What is your point here? Why is Ichigo being in Bankai even _remotely _relevant when we're comparing the base stamina of shinigami?




> Something that .





> A literally powerless mildly superhuman Uryu had enough stamina to run around dodging arrows from his dad nonstop for over a day



>A few dozen of similar fodder doing so for an unquantifiably short period 
>compares to isshin doing so by himself for a certifiable three month period

sure m8, you've definitely proved your point.

Don't have a clue what Ichigo beating the 11th division has to do with a stamina discussion either honestly


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 15, 2016)

That scene doesn't matter either way since we have no way to confirm the rate at which Isshin's reatsu was being drained. 2000 hours of draining reatsu can mean an hour of fighting an opponent of same level.



Imagine said:


> Shut the fuck up.



That hit a little close to home didn't it?


----------



## Sablés (Mar 15, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> That scene doesn't matter either way since we have no way to confirm the rate at which Isshin's reatsu was being drained. 2000 hours of draining reatsu can mean an hour of fighting an opponent of same level.



Irrelevant, Isshin is merely a frame of reference for someone else lasting that long. The feat is from Ichigo lasting that long against someone in a defensive battle.


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 15, 2016)

If you mean Ichigo lasting that long in his mind palace against his Zanpakuto then I am not sure how to categorize that. I don't really see as that Ichigo's impressive stamina feat as the exact mechanics of being inside Zanpakuto isn't explained properly. Those who favor Bleach will try to use that as evidence & others will not. And that's nothing new. I am certainly not convinced that Ichigo lasted that long in his Bankai form while his Dad's entire reatsu ran out. 

Bleach isn't really know for its battle of attrition. You have basically this one example of stamina & one of Shinji's treadmill. I don't buy this one but I do buy Shinji's one. Though I have same reservation about the rate reatsu was being drained.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 15, 2016)

Sherlōck said:


> If you mean Ichigo lasting that long in his mind palace against his Zanpakuto then I am not sure how to categorize that. I don't really see as that Ichigo's impressive stamina feat as the exact mechanics of being inside Zanpakuto isn't explained properly. Those who favor Bleach will try to use that as evidence & others will not. And that's nothing new. I am certainly not convinced that Ichigo lasted that long in his Bankai form while his Dad's entire reatsu ran out.


Pls, no strawman with that bias nonsense.

We go by what we see on panel and make a conclusion from that. There is a determinable physical link that exists between his inner mind and body as shown on several occasions and time is shown to pass there equally with the real world. No reason at all to think ichigo's stamina in there is any different than it would be outside

Don't see Isshin running out as a big deal either. That the device requires several shinigami to power at a time means its not draining some small quantity of power periodically. It could very well take more than what's necessary for an average battle.



> Bleach isn't really know for its battle of attrition. You have basically this one example of stamina & one of Shinji's treadmill. I don't buy this one but I do buy Shinji's one. Though I have same reservation about the rate reatsu was being drained.



Renji lasted 3 days in Nimaiya's training which was clearly physical (though Ichigo failed for vaguely explained reasons)  an event that paralleled the timeframe of Unohana's fight with Zaraki.

Again. Uryu dodging Ryuken's arrows while being nearly powerless.

Fighting for days is something literal fodder can achieve _internally _.so long as they're not critically wounded or killed.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 15, 2016)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It takes a group of fodder to do that for like, a day or less. Isshin did it for 3 months continuously after he had already fought Aizen and gotten his ass kicked.





Liquid said:


> >A few dozen of similar fodder doing so for an unquantifiably short period
> >compares to isshin doing so by himself for a certifiable three month period
> 
> sure m8, you've definitely proved your point.
> ...



Quit being intentionally obtuse about the ridiculous difference in magnitude we're dealing with between fodder and captains.

Isshin could do pushups into next month, but there's no fucking proof he can conduct a remotely serious battle for anywhere as long just because of his actions in Dangai.



Liquid said:


> What is your point here? Why is Ichigo being in Bankai even _remotely _relevant when we're comparing the base stamina of shinigami?



My point is this: Show me someone else using Bankai (i.e. a normally strenuous state that exudes high combat levels of energy output) for as long as Ichigo. Ichigo is the exception, not the rule.

And do I need to show you Bankai Ichigo being tired out from fighting Grimmjow to prove that whatever Jinzen is has *nowhere near the same level of exertion as ACTUAL COMBAT*?


----------



## Sherlōck (Mar 15, 2016)

Stables please, the only thing I have bias against is Magina. 

Being in his mind place puts strain on his body,not doubting that. Just not that rate you are trying to make it out. He has enough stamina to defend attacks from someone of his same level? Since you brought up defensive battle do you think HM Grimmjow (who is inferior than Post V2 Bankai Ichigo) can continuously attack Ichigo for 3 months & Ichigo can drag it out that much? Please don't tell me you believe that bullshit.

Isshin running out of reatsu is a big deal but not the way you are saying. Average battle against who? Any Captain can probably take all of Shinigami bar Captain & VC. How long 4 regular Shinigami can last against a Captain? 1 minute? Maybe even less. Power difference is so big between Captain & foor soldier that its not even funny. Ridiculous comparison is ridiculous.

Clearly you are not suggesting Renji's stamina is same as Unohona's who was the previous Kenpachi ? 

Dodging isn't the same as actually fighting. Yes it takes a lot out of you. Regular army can spend whole day training. When I was in our country's paramilitary force I trained day & night with minimal break between them. Its stressful but not out of the realm.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 16, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Quit being intentionally obtuse about the ridiculous difference in magnitude we're dealing with between fodder and captains.



What the actual fuck are you on about here? You brought up the issue that several dozen fodder can do what Isshin did but the fact that your comparison is straight up retarded without a timeframe. For all we know those shinigami can only last mere minutes whereas Isshin would last several thousand times that just by himself. And being less than 100% after getting throttled by Aizen. Your counterargument is fucking obsolete.



> My point is this: Show me someone else using Bankai (i.e. a normally strenuous state that exudes high combat levels of energy output) for as long as Ichigo. Ichigo is the exception, not the rule.



And I'm telling you Ichigo using Bankai has fucking nothing to do with it. Where is it stated that Bankai is strenuous in all cases because as far as I've seen? The ones that do (Yamamoto Soifon and Hitsugaya) are made clear exceptions whereas others (Byakuya Gin Komamura) have never demonstrated such a drawback. Komamura is capable of using his after his stomach got flayed by Tousen. 

The stipulation you'recreating here, doesn't exist and furthermore its fucking irrelevant. Ichigo's Bankai does not increase his stamina meaning those of comparable reiatsu levels will last an equal amount of time as him.



> And do I need to show you Bankai Ichigo being tired out from fighting Grimmjow to prove that whatever Jinzen is has nowhere near the same level of exertion as ACTUAL COMBAT?



You mean:

A much weaker version of Bankai Ichigo who was simultaneously suffering from hollow issues at the time. 

Great argument you've got there chap



Sherlōck said:


> Stables please, the only thing I have bias against is Magina.



I didn't call you biased, I said bias has no place here. 

Bias against Imagine is perfectly acceptable for all however.



> Being in his mind place puts strain on his body,not doubting that. Just not that rate you are trying to make it out. He has enough stamina to defend attacks from someone of his same level? Since you brought up defensive battle do you think HM Grimmjow (who is inferior than Post V2 Bankai Ichigo) can continuously attack Ichigo for 3 months & Ichigo can drag it out that much? Please don't tell me you believe that bullshit.



Argument from belief isn't an argument. Try again.




> Isshin running out of reatsu is a big deal but not the way you are saying. Average battle against who? Any Captain can probably take all of Shinigami bar Captain & VC. How long 4 regular Shinigami can last against a Captain? 1 minute? Maybe even less. Power difference is so big between Captain & foor soldier that its not even funny. Ridiculous comparison is ridiculous.



It is a big deal depending on how much reiatsu is being drained from him compared to how much reiatsu he would exert in a fight against an equal.  I'm not even saying we know this for certain but the fact that we don't, also means you can't use it as a reason to discard Ichigo's feat either.




> Clearly you are not suggesting Renji's stamina is same as Unohona's who was the previous Kenpachi ?



No. I'm saying Renji can last for 3 days. 


This is the 3rd part of the post you've misunderstood dastan 



> Dodging isn't the same as actually fighting. Yes it takes a lot out of you. Regular army can spend whole day training. When I was in our country's paramilitary force I trained day & night with minimal break between them. Its stressful but not out of the realm.



I literally have no idea what kind of arbitrary rules you're setting for what's considered as a stamina feat right now but I'll tell you one thing. It doesn't necessitate fighting against an equal. Any kind of notable stamina feat is preferable to those who have none.


----------



## Imagine (Mar 16, 2016)

Shut the fuck up already you cucks


----------



## Regicide (Mar 16, 2016)

Oh hey this thread still exists

So uhh

There's really no reason to think that Strawberry-kun's battle in the center of the mind shenanigans, also known as jinzen, doesn't have some sort of reflection on his physical capabilities

As far as I can tell, anyways

I mean, the meditation causes the same physical wounds in reality as it does when the user is fighting their sword, why would physical exhaustion and muscle fatigue and whatnot be an exception

Also I don't know why you assholes are thinking Uryu's training with his dad is somehow non-indicative of actions in battle, if a defensive one

He wasn't sitting there waiting for Ryuuken to shoot him, he had to constantly be on the move and react to the arrows appropriately


----------



## Regicide (Mar 16, 2016)

Also people bringing up Strawberry vs Grimmjow round one

As if Ichigo wasn't inflicted with hollow AIDS at the time


----------



## Imagine (Mar 16, 2016)

You have hollow aids


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 16, 2016)

Let's go back to the beginning.



Liquid said:


> If it comes to a stamina battle, I'd side with Urahara for sure given characters on his level can last from days-months.





Liquid said:


> Since FKT Ichigo  could fight  3 months in Dangai.



 after about an afternoon(?) of fighting enemies who were clearly his inferiors.

You're saying that FKT Ichigo has about... *a thousand times* as much stamina, *despite using a bankai*, as FKT Aizen?

You can't equalize Jinzen and actual physical combat in terms of effort.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 16, 2016)

You mean back when the hogyoku was re configuring his soul?

might want to read that again and find me where its stated _Isshin _pushed Aizen to his limit.


----------



## Xhominid (Mar 16, 2016)

Kenpachi TZ said:


> Let's go back to the beginning.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Um, you forgot that those are still Captains right? They could still hurt and kill Aizen if he let his guard down and even though he was dominant, he still pretty much was dealing with lots of them at once, then took a Hadou 96 from Yamamoto, got slashed by Ichigo, then fought Isshin afterwards.

Inferiors or not, you are overestimating how well anyone can do against multiple opponents that are still threats to you.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 16, 2016)

>can't equalize Jinzen with combat
>despite the fact that the effects in Jinzen are directly linked to the physical body 


Whatever you say m8. Be as obtuse as you like.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 16, 2016)

Liquid said:


> You mean back when the hogyoku was re configuring his soul?
> 
> might want to read that again and find me where its stated _Isshin _pushed Aizen to his limit.



:


> Aizen: My soul *will* undergo a metamorphosis.



That scan's a Ju-Ni translation.

He fought a lot more people than just Isshin.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 16, 2016)

Don't give me some arbitrary translation

The context is that Aizen's power as a shinigami is a result of the Hogyoku's procession which is why Aizen uses it as a response to Isshin questioning why he was slowing down.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 16, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Don't give me some arbitrary translation
> 
> The context is that Aizen's power as a shinigami is a result of the Hogyoku's procession which is why Aizen uses it as a response to Isshin questioning why he was slowing down.



Arbitrary? I seem to remember Ju-Ni having a reputation for being the most accurate translators of Bleach.

But if you're going to basically argue what Aizen says will happen is actually happening before he even says the words which is why he wasn't steamrolling into next week, I guess we're at an impasse.


----------



## Sablés (Mar 16, 2016)

Its an arbitrary translation because the earlier scan you linked says the same thing; you're taking both out of context

Isshin: You're slowing down. Tired Already?

Aizen: Yes it seems that way. I've reached my limit. My soul will undergo a metamorphosis

You're treating Aizen's statement as if they're meant separate from each other, they're not. A better view of the picture



Doesn't help your case that far weaker characters than Aizen have feats of lasting much longer than him against comparable and stronger opponents in the same damn arc.


----------



## Kenpachi TZ (Mar 16, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Its an arbitrary translation because the earlier scan you linked says the same thing; you're taking both out of context
> 
> Isshin: You're slowing down. Tired Already?
> 
> ...



Just to be sure I'm getting this correctly, you're saying that Aizen isn't tired. You're saying Aizen is merely being "weakened" by whatever the Hogyokou is doing to him?

Why would the Hogyokou do that? It grants wishes. Dissolving species barriers makes someone stronger, evidenced by Chrysalis Aizen wrecking face and tanking shit from people who'd have messed him up right before that process began.



Liquid said:


> Doesn't help your case that far weaker characters than Aizen have feats of lasting much longer than him against comparable and stronger opponents in the same damn arc.



Feel free to list them. You stated a time period of days to months.

I'm very curious of any cases of continuous battles beyond FKT Ichigo's Jinzen to support that idea.

The only extended battle I can recall is Ichigo's 5 days with Urahara. But it's not as if Urahara was really trying, given the level Ichigo was at in comparison to a captain-level at the time.


----------



## Shining Force (Apr 1, 2016)

This match is quite an inconclusive one, but I am leaning towards Urahara since he has good sealing techs.

Regarding the stamina issue, shinigami in their bankai have limited stamina (well except Ichigo) than their normal combat. Simply the more powerful techs they use, the faster their stamina runs out. Urahara could not problably fight with his bankai active for days.

Also this implication might help:


----------



## tunaguy (Apr 1, 2016)

Shining Force said:


> This match is quite an inconclusive one, but I am leaning towards Urahara since he has good sealing techs.
> 
> Regarding the stamina issue, shinigami in their bankai have limited stamina (well except Ichigo) than their normal combat. Simply the more powerful techs they use, the faster their stamina runs out. Urahara could not problably fight with his bankai active for days.
> 
> Also this implication might help:



Not quite true it actually depends on the bankai type. Most bankais usually drain tons of energy while some increase it Rukia couldn't recognise Renji's reiatsu in bankai till it had almost vanished the likes of mayuri and komamura who summon creatures don't seem to loose more stamina than when their in base they mostly don't keep up their bankai's for long since most of them are inconvenient for long battles and bankai's like that of Shunsui is not something that's spammable since if it doesn't work the first time it will likely never work on it's opponents.

In the scan you posted it's only Hitsugaya that's showing signs of fatigue Byakuya is really still all casual and standing not doing anything. it's also normal that when facing a vastly superior opponents you'd run out of stamina faster than normal. 
Ace is able to fight with Jimbe for three days but if he where Whitebeard (one who isn't taking him seriously) he won't last an hour


----------



## Dr. White (Apr 1, 2016)

Law will eventually steal his heart or punch his face in with MES. Law immediately after fighting off attacks from Fuji and Doflamingo, was able to fight on par with Doflamingo for a bit and nearly land MES on his face which did actual damage to Doflamingo who dodges and counterattacks. Doflamingo is a bit faster and just as mobile thanks to string flight. He also then while beat to hell and extremely tired was able to impale Dofla with his sword. Law has city level Haki defense to fall back on, Teleportation, and can just lol nope Urahara's Bankai with his Terrain control and spatial manipulation in room (Law's Takt is City+ level). Law's range even on his last legs far surpasses Urahara's. With pre cog, better speed, better range, the hax to put him down/negate his arsenal, and teleportation, I don't see how Urahara wins this.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 1, 2016)

tunaguy said:


> In the scan you posted it's only Hitsugaya that's showing signs of fatigue Byakuya is really still all casual and standing not doing anything.



Uh going off byakuya's thoughts he is feeling just like hitsugaya about their current situation. He's just keeping his composure on the outside.


----------



## tunaguy (Apr 1, 2016)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Uh going off byakuya's thoughts he is feeling just like hitsugaya about their current situation. He's just keeping his composure on the outside.



Am pretty sure his in a better shape than hitsugaya if His tired it will most likely be because he tanked a hit from Gerard earlier not cause his using his bankai


----------



## Kuhzan (Apr 2, 2016)

Can't Law just personality switch him with like an ant or something?


----------

