# Itachi vs Pain



## Larry (Aug 9, 2015)

Area: Madara Vs Guy basically flat land idk

Knowledge: None

Distance: 50 Meters

And also Itachi would be 100% healthy in this fight (not dying due to illness)


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2015)

Pain destroys him. 

Genjutsu will not effect Pain (unless it sound which itachi does not have anyway)
Amatersu is useless to the Block rods, Preta Path, and ST. 

the numbers, and the boss summons are not going to make it any easier for itachi either.


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## Duhul10 (Aug 9, 2015)

he looses a good part of his chakra to kill all the summons Animal path will send to him. Amaterasu is a non- factor, so is genjutsu. His only chance to kill some paths is susanoo, but even that could be absorbed by preta.
Or Deva uses bansho tennin and gets him out of susanoo.
HE gets overwhelmed after killing like 2-3 paths at max.
Give him full knowledge and he will resist more, maybe giving Pein a high diff.


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## Amol (Aug 9, 2015)

Shinra Tensei GG


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## ARGUS (Aug 9, 2015)

Pein wins this mid/high diff 

 -- their formation means that any ninjutsu gets either absorbed by Preta and repelled by deva, whilst any fallen path just gets revived by jigokudo making this a huge pain in the ass for Itachi 

 -- susanoo gets absorbed by preta, and when it does. Deva sends him flying by a large scale ST and shurado blows him off with missiles 

 -- genjutsu holds no merit against the dead paths who have Nagato breaking them free whenever the need be. And CQC is not helping Itachi against 6 paths with chakra rods shared vision and more than enough speed to react to a fast jutsu like FRS

 -- then there's the usual CT GG or CST GG


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## spookyboogie (Aug 9, 2015)

Pein definitely wins; Itachi loses to Sasuke (even if it was intentional) and saying Itachi could beat Pein would be like saying Sasuke pre Itachi's eyes could beat Pein, which is unlikely.


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2015)

God always prevails over any king.


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## Bonly (Aug 9, 2015)

To make a long story short Itachi simply gets overwhelmed and outlasted sooner or later.



LostSelf said:


> God always prevails over any king.



 God can prevail over any King but can God prevail against *The* Queen?


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2015)

Why 
Oh god why this thread it's so repetitive 
Seriously 
Pain wins as most will say


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## Matty (Aug 9, 2015)

Pain dominates. CT, CST, GM any of those will suffice


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## ARGUS (Aug 9, 2015)

spookyboogie said:


> Pein definitely wins;* Itachi loses to Sasuke (even if it was intentional)* and saying Itachi could beat Pein would be like saying Sasuke pre Itachi's eyes could beat Pein, which is unlikely.



Lol god no, sick Itachi would have shat on hebi Sasuke any time he wanted to 
MS Sasuke loses to Itachi as well since the latter is above him in pretty much every category


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## Trojan (Aug 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol god no, sick Itachi would have shat on hebi Sasuke any time he wanted to
> MS Sasuke loses to Itachi as well since the latter is above him in pretty much every category



Lol, no. 
Itachi himself admitted Sasuke's power. The Databook states that Sasuke defeated itachi's most powerful Genjutsu by his own power, and we saw Sasuke trolling LolAmatersu as well. Sasuke's ninjutsu are stronger than itachi's as well, and their tools skills are more or less the same as they countered each other. Genjutsu is useless as any of them can destroy it anyway, and their goes itachi's main power. 

It well be nothing less than hard difficult fight for itachi,

MS Sasuke is however stronger than Itachi because of the chakra advantage.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 9, 2015)

If he's healthy Itachi has a very good chance at beating Pain, most of you guys forget that a healthy not blind Itachi would be able to use Susano'o for an extended period of time and his Susano'o comes with the Yata Mirror which will deflect all taijutsu/ninjutsu right back at Pain. This means short of Deva's Powers, nothing else will work against Itachi.

He's already shown the astute nature to analyze and find a way around the CT which is the actual problem Itachi would have. Asura, Human, Naraka and Animal have no viable defensive ability, they are likely to get crushed by Itachi's Susano'o/Amaterasu. The summons haven't shown anything that would indicate they can breach Susano'o.

The real problem for Itachi would be dealing with Deva's power and Preta's absorbing power and Kakashi was able to figure out Deva's power within a few skirmishes, Itachi with the cover of Susano'o should be able to as well.


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol god no, sick Itachi would have shat on hebi Sasuke any time he wanted to
> MS Sasuke loses to Itachi as well since the latter is above him in pretty much every category


This.

Moreover, Pain will eventually take it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2015)

CT GG 
Boring thread


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## David (Aug 9, 2015)

Ahh, the old fight.

It all depends on how Tsukiyomi affects Pain, imo.

Kishi didn't care about his manga enough to leave us a decent hint about how the Rinnegan fares against most Genjutsu.

Kishi also didn't explain why the 3 Pain bodies were caught in Jiraiya's Genjutsu, but Nagato himself was seemingly perfectly unaffected.  Genjutsu is supposed to manipulate its targets' chakra in their brains, yet Nagato's brain is the one doing the thinking.

Pain basically made no sense in that regard, imo, and Kishi avoided really explaining how that was supposed to work.

Now obviously Pain isn't a total noob, Nagato has outstanding chakra control and powerful chakra, and he put a lock into the rain fodder's mind that gave the Konoha specialists some trouble, but how he'd do against Itachi's Tsukiyomi - which might be on the same level as the Hermit elders' sound Genjutsu - is questionable.

If Tsukiyomi affects all the Pain bodies at once "because of shared vision" and it actually works, Itachi lops all their heads off with a kunai  while they're occupied and when he can't cut through Demon Realm, hits him with Ameratsu.

If Tsukiyomi only affects one body at a time (or if it doesn't work at all), imo Itachi loses.

I would assume that regular Sharingan Genjutsu (where Itachi is manipulating his enemy's chakra for an extended time) would be useless against the Rinnegan because I can't imagine Kishi saying that Itachi would no-diff Nagato with a basic bitch genjutsu (unacceptable  ).

Summons wouldn't be a problem for someone with Itachi's mobility, and his Shunshin is probably faster than Demon Realm's missiles, but avoiding missiles + rocket fists + summons, coordinated attacks from 6 bodies + Shinra Tensei/Bansho Tenin will prove tricky and if Itachi gets hit once with a chakra rod (which is very likely because of ST/BT), he'll end up on the receiving end of a soul rip.

I don't see kunai tricks working against 6 bodies' + summons' shared vision and I'd put Pain's average speed between Asuma and Kakashi-level, roughly.  Ameratsu, if it is used on Demon/Human/Hell/Animal Realm, would get absorbed by Hungry Ghost Realm on the side before it finishes burning the targeted body.  Susano'o, if it gets pulled out (it probably will because of Itachi's amazing reactions), would get beaten by a pumped Shinra Tensei, IMO, or eventually a Chibaku Tensei.

The fight's outcome depends a good amount on 100% Itachi's stamina, but even assuming that it's quite good, I just see him falling prey to 5+ angles of attack in conjunction with Shinra Tensei/Bansho Tenin.  If his real body gets pushed into the ground - which would probably happen eventually since ST is seemingly unavoidable, it leaves him open to way too much firepower that only Susano'o can defend from, and - as said - even that would get taken down by a serious ST or CT.

*If Tsukiyomi actually affects all the Pain bodies at once (it should since its effect is purely psychological and Nagato is the brain for all 6 bodies, but 3 bodies were captured in the Sage Genjutsu so wat), works effectively, and Itachi uses it before God Realm uses BT on his real body, then Itachi wins easily,* as much as I hate to admit it.

*If Tsukiyomi only affects one body at a time, Pain would win with high difficulty* IMO since Itachi wouldn't know which bodies to target first and waste a lot of chakra.  Hell Realm would probably do some reviving, get taken out eventually, and Itachi might take out another body or two if he's lucky enough to survive the onslaught long enough.  

*If Tsukiyomi is completely ineffective**, I'd say Pain with mid difficulty.*  Too much firepower and Itachi's attacks would get countered with ST/absorption/CT.


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## Larry (Aug 9, 2015)

David said:


> Ahh, the old fight.
> 
> It all depends on how Tsukiyomi affects Pain, imo.
> 
> ...




Damn that was a good read


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## ARGUS (Aug 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Lol, no.
> Itachi himself admitted Sasuke's power. The Databook states that Sasuke defeated itachi's most powerful Genjutsu by his own power, and we saw Sasuke trolling LolAmatersu as well. Sasuke's ninjutsu are stronger than itachi's as well, and their tools skills are more or less the same as they countered each other. Genjutsu is useless as any of them can destroy it anyway, and their goes itachi's main power.
> 
> It well be nothing less than hard difficult fight for itachi,
> ...


No he isn't 
Chakra pool is as good as nothing when we talk about vitality and pain resistance where Sasuke can't resist the drawbacks from MS at all 

Itachi in his sick dying state showed the usage and scale of Amaterasu that trumps anything that Sasuke has showed. Manipulating the shape of Amaterasu (Enton) is included because at the end of the day it's the same flames themselves 

And in his sick dying state he showed the use of V4 susanoo which shit stomps Sasuke susnanoo usage 
Sasuke was unable to handle V4 susanoo and Lost it in one second so in a battle. the V4 susanoo with weapons takes a solid steamy dump on sasukes V3 

Itachi in his sick dying state nearly blitzed killer bee who has speed feats above MS Sasukes and in his sick dying state lol blitzed Sasuke himself 

His shuriken skills and CQC skills helped him combat someone as fast as KCM Naruto who Sasuke can never do in his Ms Sasuke 

Sasuke resisting tsukuyomi is nothing special since the main agenda for breaking the genjutsu is to have the same blood as the user. 
The gap in their genjutsu skills and level is as large as the Pacific Ocean 

There is also hype in which Itachi takes a dump on Sasuke and I don't even need to mention the fact that even Tobi was afraid of him 
The same guy who was using Sasuke as a tool and flat out said that he could kill him whenever he could


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

I think the author made it clear that Nagato had much higher reactions than Pain, and Nagato had trouble reacting to Itachi. So I see Pain getting systematically mowed down by Itachi.

Asura Path, and _all_ the Paths, were getting back to back raped by Sage Naruto up until Deva had 100% of Nagato's focus. Itachi and his techniques are even faster than Pain Arc Sage Naruto.

Itachi seemingly also has better knowledge of Rinnegan techniques, or is just that much smarter to the point where he figured out shared vision and how to counter it nearly instantly. IMO:

Nagato > Weakened KCM Naruto, Itachi > Pain > Pain Arc Naruto​


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## Sans (Aug 10, 2015)

Nagato = Itachi, Strategos.

How could you....


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Nagato = Itachi, Strategos.
> 
> How could you....



Nagato is the Superman to Itachi's Batman.


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## David (Aug 10, 2015)

I have to go soon and will only be able to respond further later tonight if you respond to this.



Strategoob said:


> I think the author made it clear that Nagato had much higher reactions than Pain, and Nagato had trouble reacting to Itachi. So I see Pain getting systematically mowed down by Itachi.
> 
> *Asura Path, and all the Paths, were getting back to back raped by Sage Naruto up until Deva had 100% of Nagato's focus. Itachi and his techniques are even faster than Pain Arc Sage Naruto.*


*

I disagree.  Imo:

SM Naruto blitzed Demon Realm while he was aiming for Tsunade and SM Naruto was incapable of blitzing any other Pain body while they were paying attention to him.

Hungry Ghost Realm was toe-to-toe against SM Naruto in CQC as well.

I mean, one could hypothesize "Pain had 6 bodies and you're telling me not one watched Naruto?", but I'm guessing that was the case because no blitzes happened after Demon Realm got taken out.  And Kishi probably took Demon Realm out because it was too much trouble for him to write the fight with guided missiles and yet another body, and the way it was written had Naruto already getting defeated by Pain. 

I'd guess Itachi is faster than Pain going by his speed in general throughout the story, but really SM and BM speed seem so inconsistent to me.  Clones are supposed to be physically weaker than the real body, yet Naruto's clone in Sage Mode was physically good enough to keep up with the 3rd Raikage, which implied that clones aren't physically weaker than real bodies (since it's not like the real SM Naruto would be leagues faster than the 3rd Raikage).

And if clones aren't physically weaker than the original body, that would mean that Kimimaro and Chiyo could physically deal with the original BM Naruto, which is bullshit because Kisame, the 4th Raikage, Killer Bee, etc. were previously whacking off to BM Naruto's speed.

What I'm getting at is that Kishi's manga is full of bullshit. 

The best thing we can do (just IMO) is take Itachi's portrayed speed throughout the manga, which is something like "a step above Kakashi but Kakashi can somewhat keep up, and he can also hang with BM Naruto and Bee."  

And we should remember that his being able to keep up with people like BM Naruto (and therefore nearly everyone in the story) is in good part due to his reactions (precognition), and not solely because he can run, Shunshin, punch, etc. as fast as Bijuu Naruto can (what I'm getting that is that although Itachi is physically fast, by portrayal, I can't see Kishi drawing him beating BM Naruto in a race).

Edit: Also although Nagato is superior to Pain power-wise, I don't really see his reactions being faster than Pain's reactions since they're the same person.  You could pull the "he's 6 times more distracted when controlling the six paths" card and logically it makes sense, but do you really think that the God Realm who had the edge against Kakashi in a Taijutsu exchange was only using 1/6 of his reaction ability?  That would mean that you would have to admit that God Realm without the other Pain bodies up would have SIX TIMES the reaction time of someone on Kakashi's level.  Which is obviously false.  Even though it would make sense since controlling 6 bodies should be more distracting than controlling 1 body.  Kishi just doesn't care.




			Itachi seemingly also has better knowledge of Rinnegan techniques, or is just that much smarter to the point where he figured out shared vision and how to counter it nearly instantly.
		
Click to expand...


I was impressed, but I think cutting all vision will be much harder against 6 physically (imo) Asuma/Kakashi-level bodies here than it was against Nagato.*


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## Malicious Friday (Aug 10, 2015)

Pain wins low-mid difficulty. 

Itachi would get bombarded by summons, Preta would absorb all his jutsus, and I don't think tsukyomi works on a dead body. I think the only chance he has is maybe Amaterasu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 10, 2015)

Rinnegan= EMS evolution 
Sharingan Genjutsu and tskuyomi will be ineffective 

Rinnegan is basically immune 

Doesn't mean MS or rinnegan are immune to all genjutsu

Itachi against Kurenai even implies a certain level of genjutsu will affect him


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## Larry (Aug 10, 2015)

Imagine if Itachi had Rinnegan.


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## Empathy (Aug 10, 2015)

"_Prime_," Nagato, I don't really consider to be a faithful representation of Akatsuki's strongest member (barring subsequent Rinnegan Obito and so forth, where the focus shifted from the organization as a whole). Prime Nagato is considered to be regular, emaciated Nagato that's been amped-up on Hachibi chakra, but without his _Edo Tensei_ abilities that incarnation had in the manga. He's sort of a made-up character that's based strongly in fact to me. Rather, _Edo Tensei_ Nagato rejuvenated by Hachibi chakra is a juiced-up incarnation of Nagato/Pain that was meant to serve as a greater obstacle to KCM Naruto, Edo Itachi, and Bee; an obstacle that none of them had the ability to surmount alone, which was a tie-in to Edo Itachi's philosophy of relying on others to do things you can't do alone that he stressed after his resurrection (the whole point of him telling Naruto he'd up like Obito if he kept trying to shoulder everything alone). 

Edo Nagato (the white-haired, crippled version) or _Pein Rikudou_ wouldn't serve as a credible threat to the trio, so the author juiced-up the already marginally strongest character on the field to present an obstacle they handily cleaned up when working together. It's hard to even consider that robotic, personality-devoid version of Nagato as a character, when he more closely resembles an event or AI boss. The same is the case with healthy Itachi to a somewhat lesser extent. Itachi without illness has fast become the norm when pitting him against his peers (Minato, Tobirama, Bee etc.) Adding the stipulation that Itachi is sick (when that should be a given in my opinion) like his living manga incarnation was, is seen as nerfing him down to contend with weaker adversaries such as sick Itachi being seen as the _only_ incarnation that could have difficulty handling Jiraiya (not everyone sees this way, I'm just using it as an example). 

However, in part I and II, Itachi was sick throughout the entire main storyline while he was alive. Eliminating one of his vices to make a stronger incarnation of Itachi that never existed in life is a lot like not considering Mangekyou to rob him of his sight, or to a greater, hyperbolic extent, to require no chakra expenditure at all; this is done to point where you have a pseudo-EMS Itachi (which isn't that dissimilar to Edo Itachi). I understand that healthy Itachi or prime Nagato aren't either that much of a stretch, despite neither ever existing in life, because they're both pretty much assumed to be Edo Itachi (without access to _Kotoamatsukami_) and Edo Nagato (post-Hachibi chakra and without Kabuto controlling him), but without their _Edo Tensei_ powers. We do the same thing with a lot of other characters like the Edo Kages or Tobirama, who never really got to show their abilities in life due to dying before the main storyline. 

So we just take away the 'Edo' part from Edo Muu or whatever, and make a guess at what the limit of their abilities were while they were alive. The difference is that we know alive Muu or Tobirama existed and had those abilities, which is why we don't assume him to be Edo Tobirama in matches, despite that being the way he primarily was shown. We never saw a living incarnation of Itachi with perfect health and perfect eyesight and high stamina, just as alive Nagato was always atrophied and confined to a chair, except when he was a kid and barely knew how to use his powers. We could try to speculate that maybe sixteen-year-old Itachi wasn't ill, had good eyesight, and his powers still had matured to the point we saw them at in the manga, but that's a lot like throwing prime Hiruzen at a character and trying to guess how strong he is (and with Itachi, we don't even know for sure if that incarnation ever existed). 

I consider it very similar to Edo Minato and Edo Madara. In threads, living Minato isn't assumed to be capable of going full bijuu mode because the only time he ever had half the Kyuubi's chakra before death was during his dying moments. The distinction has to be clarified that it's Edo Minato fighting, who is capable of accessing the Kyuubi's chakra. It's the same with living EMS Madara not being assumed to have the Rinnegan, Hashirama's DNA, and being capable of mokuton on top of having all his VotE abilities. Edo Minato and Edo Madara have to be stipulated to have those powers, whilst living Itachi and Nagato are just always assumed to be in top condition, perfect health. I don't see how Nagato being bolstered by Hachibi chakra is any different, when they're all things none of them had without _Edo Tensei_. Itachi, by comparison may not seem as big of a stretch as the others, as healthy Itachi is just Edo Itachi minus all the Edo powers. 

But not only did he never have that health, Edo Itachi was also capable of _Kotoamatsukami_, which would pretty much allow him to easily defeat most of his peers I mentioned earlier if he didn't have to use _Kotoamatsukami_ for plot reasons. Itachi while alive never lived long enough to see that jutsu become a useable possibility. My overall point is that, Pain is stronger than sick (or regular) Itachi, while Edo Itachi or made-up healthy Itachi should be superior to Pain (and other contemporaries like Minato and Tobirama while we're at it). Only Edo Nagato or imaginary prime Nagato is gonna beat Edo Itachi, or Edo Itachi without his Edo powers. Pain and sick Itachi should be given more credit, as I do see them amongst the likes of Tobirama, KCM Naruto, or Minato. This also gives further credence to my belief of _Sennin_ Naruto and Jiraiya not being left so far behind in the dust.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

It's likely Itachi was healthy and "prime" from 16-20, then tapered off during year 20 and 21. Even most cancer patients seem normal-ish up until their final year, where they become _very_ weak.

This is supported by Zetsu being shocked by sick Itachi's performance, saying he was much weaker than usual and suspecting that he'd been _severely injured_ just before fighting Sasuke.

Kishimoto intentionally never showed healthy Itachi going all out simply because he was too capable. A reason for him holding back and/or being held back always had to be in place for plot's sake.

What we received was reason after reason after reason for why he wasn't going all out, and had that combined with hype about his invincible items, incredible see-through-you intellect, etc.

He is a formidable opponent that IMO was never surpassed up until we saw the zord god tier emerged.​


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 10, 2015)

David said:


> Ahh, the old fight.
> 
> It all depends on how Tsukiyomi affects Pain, imo.
> 
> ...



Good read, excellent points. 

I don't think we should rank sound-based genjutsu in the same category as visual based genjutsu. It's possible that not only does the Paths of Pain's eyes, but all other senses are also increased by the same level (e.g. hearing, touching, seeing, smelling and etc.) as his eyes. Meaning at the very least the chakra control and nerve centers for the path bodies are linked together. Interrupting this wouldn't have an effect on Nagato because he has his own sensation on top of the additional senses provided by the paths.

*Would Tsukuyomi/vision-based genjutsu work?*

I believe he would have a better shot at using basic genjutsu than Tsukuyomi, since the latter depends on the user having a sound mind. If Nagato is just borrowing their bodies as a vehicle to do battle, then I don't see how his chakra gets trumped by those black rods.


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2015)

Larry said:


> Imagine if Itachi had Rinnegan.



Rinnegan is a very taxing doujutsu. Remember what Obito with Hashirama's cells said.

Itachi would activate Rinnegan and die right there


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## Empathy (Aug 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's likely Itachi was healthy and "prime" from 16-20, then tapered off during year 20 and 21. Even most cancer patients seem normal-ish up until their final year, where they become _very_ weak.
> 
> This is supported by Zetsu being shocked by sick Itachi's performance, saying he was much weaker than usual and suspecting that he'd been _severely injured_ just before fighting Sasuke.​



How do we know what specifically didn't stem from holding back against Sasuke, or if it wasn't exacerbated from being a few minutes to succumbing to disease? We don't know Zetsu's reference point either. He could be speaking of Itachi against Hebi Sasuke as opposed to simply part I or earlier part II Itachi, rather than not having seen him in action for five years. Had all of Itachi's abilities fully developed by the time he was sixteen or seventeen, presumably before he became ill? For example, how long has he had his ethereal items? Zetsu was already aware of them, but again, he didn't specify what juncture he was comparing Itachi at. 

Kakashi and MS Sasuke certainly had better eyesight when they initially started using their Mangekyou Sharingan, but their abilities didn't develop until after quite a bit of eyesight deterioration had occurred. His illness was never specified as cancer, nor was it even clarified when he contracted it. Him being healthy until his twenties is a possibility just as him maturing his Mangekyou abilities at the same time he started dying is. This dwells into conjecture just as I mentioned in my initial post in the part about using younger Itachi as healthy Itachi. I compared it to gauging prime Hiruzen's strength, rather than just using the incarnation we saw perform in depth whilst alive in the manga.



> Kishimoto intentionally never showed healthy Itachi going all out simply because he was too capable. A reason for him holding back and/or being held back always had to be in place for plot's sake.​



Plenty of people's full capabilities were never shown. We never saw all the jutsu Orochimaru was capable of after regaining his soul arms. We only saw about a third of Sasori's puppet arsenal. Hanzo never got to show any ninjutsu, etc.



> What we received was reason after reason after reason for why he wasn't going all out, and had that combined with hype about his invincible items, incredible see-through-you intellect, etc.​



What reason did he have to hold back against Nagato? Does the invincible items and see-through-you hype somehow not apply to unhealthy Itachi (or, as I like to call him, Itachi).


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 10, 2015)

Let's see... I think Itachi may actually lose this.

-gakido eats his susano'o 
-ningendo rips away both the magic tools & donates 'em to charity
-amaterasu is  dissipated by the black rod reception 
-the bird makes sure Itachi can't finish hell path & the revival jutsu
-directed genjutsu is benign to the rinnegan
-the dog makes sure his clones are laughed at
-shurados' onslaught cripples his body
-tendo turns off his lights


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Rinnegan is a very taxing doujutsu. Remember what Obito with Hashirama's cells said.
> 
> Itachi would activate Rinnegan and die right there



He probably meant if Itachi achieved it naturally.

i.e. with a Hashirama/Zetsu boost to stamina.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2015)

Everyone knows that Pain Rikudou would stomp Itachi, easily.

No Ninjutsu due to Preta Path. No Taijutsu due to the Six Paths and Demon Realm. No Itachi style Genjutsu since the Rinnegan would provide some resistance to Itach's normal illusions; it lacks the functions of the frog song.
No Tsukuyomi since Nagato won't be effected; there's also that Rinnegan thing going on.

Basically Itachi is just there to be destroyed by Pain.

The only people who still say Itachi *at this point* are the people who will always say Itachi wins a match, no matter who he's paired against whether it be Pain, Hagoromo or even Kayuga.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Empathy said:


> How do we know what specifically didn't stem from holding back against Sasuke, or if it wasn't exacerbated from being a few minutes to succumbing to disease? We don't know Zetsu's reference point either. He could be speaking of Itachi against Hebi Sasuke as opposed to simply part I or earlier part II Itachi, rather than not having seen him in action for five years. Had all of Itachi's abilities fully developed by the time he was sixteen or seventeen, presumably before he became ill? For example, how long has he had his ethereal items? Zetsu was already aware of them, but again, he didn't specify what juncture he was comparing Itachi at.



Zetsu was Obito's method of surveillance, and Itachi was an extreme person of interest to Obito. So I doubt it had been 5 weeks since Zetsu had been watching Itachi let alone 5 years. Sick Itachi was much more likely a very new development to him.​


Empathy said:


> Plenty of people's full capabilities were never shown. We never saw all the jutsu Orochimaru was capable of after regaining his soul arms. We only saw about a third of Sasori's puppet arsenal. Hanzo never got to show any ninjutsu, etc.



It's different though. The author didn't spell out "He was severely weakened and should've been much stronger than this" after their fights like he did after Itachi fought. Zetsu saying that means that sick Itachi was an exception, not the standard state.​


Empathy said:


> What reason did he have to hold back against Nagato? Does the invincible items and see-through-you hype somehow not apply to unhealthy Itachi (or, as I like to call him, Itachi).



Well, Itachi held back initially in order to save Naruto and Bee. Otherwise, stabbing Nagato with the Totsuka would have been doable since running in and cutting up Nagato with Susano'o hands (slower) was evidently doable.

It's also worth noting that if Nagato did not have Edo Tensei, he wouldn't have been able to use Chibaku Tensei, since Itachi had removed both his arms with Amaterasu and Susano'o before that point. They just regenerated back thanks to Edo Tensei.​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No Ninjutsu due to Preta Path. No Taijutsu due to the Six Paths and Demon Realm.



This is why Pain stomped Sage Naruto too.

Oh wait.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This is why Pain stomped Sage Naruto too.
> 
> Oh wait.



Because Pain Rikudou, as a whole fought Sage Naruto.

Or was it because Naruto didn't have the specific tools to fight the less than 6 Paths we saw. 

See, it is the Itachi side ignoring things like this which make the arguments less credible.
Itachi lacks Sage Naruto's powers and circumstances. Sadly he's fighting Pain at full might... which makes Itachi's full might seem miniscule.


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He probably meant if Itachi achieved it naturally.
> 
> i.e. with a Hashirama/Zetsu boost to stamina.



Then that'd be something worth to see.



Strategoob said:


> This is why Pain stomped Sage Naruto too.
> 
> Oh wait.



Pain did stomp SM Naruto. Actually, Preta Path + Deva Path were enough. And had Pain the mindset to kill, he would've put a rod through Naruto's head instead of getting a hold of him.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2015)

Sage Naruto couldn't beat Deva and Preta together and I'm being told that Itachi can take all six. 

Itachi is literally screwed. His abnormally low chakra reserves mean he only has 5 MS shots... that's when he's not using jutsu like Kage Bunshin. Pain has an insane amount of chakra.

Amaterasu, Susanoo... useless due to Preta Path. Taijutsu, Itachi will just die to six people or Asura Path alone if he tries Taijutsu.
Genjutsu, superior ocular powers and numbers work for Pain.

Itachi is just screwed. He might as well just wave a white flag in this match because there is nothing he'll do to even challenge Pain.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Pain did stomp SM Naruto. Actually, Preta Path + Deva Path were enough. And had Pain the mindset to kill, he would've put a rod through Naruto's head instead of getting a hold of him.



My point being that "ninjutsu won't work on Pain because Preta Path herpa lerpa" isn't true because Preta isn't everywhere at once. We saw Naruto land a shit-ton of ninjutsu on Pain, and taijutsu.

Similarly, for Itachi, if Preta isn't within the immediate vicinity (a few feet) and any other path of Pain is, he can grab it with a Susano'o hand and crush it in less than a second.

And it's not like Itachi himself can't destroy Preta one on one with the fireball-shuriken combination he used on Bee. Preta would try to absorb the fire and then get pegged in the head with kunai.

In every Pain thread we get shit like: "Preta counters ninjutsu. Shared vision counters taijutsu. Pain wins." When that shit obviously isn't an absolute truth, you know?​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2015)

crapload

When we have to change the way Pain fights - saying they stay far from each other for no reason - so Itachi can stand a chance by crushing Pain Paths with Susanoo... It tends to mean Itachi has no honest chance of winning. 

Outside of putting a lot of limits on Pain, ofc.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Animal Path fought Jiraiya alone for like five straight minutes.
Human Path charged in alone against Jiraiya and was blinded.
Asura Path charged in alone against Tsunade and was killed.
Hungry Ghost realm charged in alone against Naruto and was killed.
Pain spit up entirely when in Konoha and a body lost to Konohamaru.

These are all instances I remembered instantly without reviewing the chapters. Pain does not stick together 100% of the time, and none of them move faster than the Susano'o hand attack.

Hell, even if Preta Path were a few feet away, I don't see him moving faster than the Susano'o hand can slap a body against the earth. Edo Itachi couldn't dodge the Susano'o hand extension.

So you're telling me Itachi and Danzo can't physically evade the Susano'o hand attack, but Preta Path can _intercept_ it for another Path? Get the hell out of here with that ridiculous shit.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Animal Path fought Jiraiya alone for like five straight minutes.
> Human Path charged in alone against Jiraiya and was blinded.
> Asura Path charged in alone against Tsunade and was killed.
> Hungry Ghost realm charged in alone against Naruto and was killed.
> ...



Right because ITT it starts with just Animal Path. 

I also like how you're purposely distorting context to make points. For example ignoring that Pain didn't even watch Naruto when Asura charged for Tsunade or the fact you ignored that, bar Kakashi and Naruto, no Konoha shinobi could even take down Pain. 
In fact the Hungry Ghost example works against you, the other Paths weren't far and shared vision only failed due to a technique designed to bypass it.

Instances you _selectively _remembered involved distorting the context heavily. Also using examples where does tended not to be a threat to Pain or ignored the points where Pain did fight like he did against Jiraiya.

Pain never stays far enough to the point where each Path can't assist one-another. This trait was present even among Tobi's Paths. 

The only ridiculous thing here is the way you're trying to make it seem Itachi stands a chance. In the face of Pain's fighting style you opt for the usual distorting context and forgetting evidence to support a flawed point. That was in response to how Itachi is completely helpless against all six.

Another ridiculous thing is you believe Itachi is going to try Ninjutsu, like Susanoo. Y'know despite the fact every shinobi who fights the Rinnegan (or Pain while Preta's active) opts to _not_ to use Ninjutsu because they know that it will be useless. But somehow Itachi is different because he has a Susanoo arm... or just because he's Itachi, right?

When you can make a point without having to distort manga facts, Pain's fighting style in this case, then the idea Itachi could might _might_ be credible. (Though you'd have to address the impossible obstacles.)

Till then, Pain still stomps Itachi like always.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 10, 2015)

We can all agree that the fastest Pain body so far was Deva, but Kakashi had no problem keeping pace with him and I don't see any of them blitzing Itachi, either. 1 vs. 1, Itachi destroys any of the bodies, doesn't matter what they can do or can't do. It becomes a huge problem when it is 6 vs. 1, because it automatically forces Itachi to use Susano'o from the get go, which is fine because if and when he does, he wins with Totsuka.





			
				Munboy O'Dracule said:
			
		

> Pain never stays far enough to the point where each Path can't assist one-another. This trait was present even among Tobi's Paths.


While it wasn't impressed upon in the series, I believe they need to be present within a certain distance to each other. If and when that fails, I believe he just has Animal Path summon them.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I also like how you're purposely distorting context to make points. For example ignoring that Pain didn't even watch Naruto when Asura charged for Tsunade



No. You're purposefully ignoring the point. Nagato _frequently_ sends out Path alone, where they're promptly butchered. It has happened against _all_ of Pain's opponents. Jiriaya, Naruto, Konohamaru.​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Another ridiculous thing is you believe Itachi is going to try Ninjutsu, like Susanoo. Y'know despite the fact every shinobi who fights the Rinnegan opts to not to use Ninjutsu



A-are you serious?



So if Nagato himself, who was stated to have higher reactions than Pain, couldn't react with ninjutsu to the Totsuka coming out of a dust cloud from 20 meters away, then why would Pain?

If Edo Itachi couldn't dodge the Susano'o hand, then why would Preta Path be able to intercept it for another Path? He's not faster than Itachi, and Itachi's not faster than his Susano'o hand.

_Think_ about it for a second. Itachi is four feet from Asura. Preta is six feet away. Itachi's own body can cover four feet faster than Preta can cover seix feet, but the Susano'o hand moves much faster.

So how is Preta going to intercept it? He's not. And he's only six feet away. This is what I mean when I say there isn't a hard rule about ninjutsu not working on Pain. It's limited, especially in close range.

This is something we saw Naruto repeatedly exploit with pointblank Rasengan attacks. The Susano'o hand is a much quicker and deadlier technique in that regard.​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

I'm also fairly certain just using the cheap rib cage Susano'o  when he needed it (he has the reaction) would make Itachi immune to everything Pain could do without Nagato giving Deva 100% power.

Kakashi tanked a few of Deva's Shinra Tensei blasts, so with rib cage Susano'o Itach should be virtually unharmed. And like I said in the previously, partial Susano'o transformation wreck most bodies.

Plus any big, smoke-creating attacks would just open up a repeat of what happened to Edo Nagato against Itachi. A bunch of kunai would be in various Rinnegan eyeballs and Susano'o would tear shit up.  

Really, without CT, Nagato can't threaten Itachi much, as Itachi's so fast and just v1 Susano'o blocks most everything Pain offers. But CT and CST require Deva to have all of Nagato's focus.​


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## Sans (Aug 10, 2015)

You're wrong Strategos, Nagato is a strategic genius who uses Shinra Tensei on kunais and doesn't afraid of anything.

That time he fed Deva in against Naruto without backup and without access to his Rinnegan powers, and got his strongest Path tossed across Konoha for his effort? You cannot grasp the true form of his intellect.


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## LostSelf (Aug 10, 2015)

Komnenos looks angry because Nagato is above Itachi .

@Strategoob. I was just pointing out that Pain stomped Naruto. However, to reply to some parts. I don't think Preta would absorb those Kunais, considering he would see them (i suppose). Also, the Susano'o hand only managed to catch Itachi because Sasuke was moving, since he was moving, the hand was growing and wasn't left behind because of Sasuke. Therefore, it was a matter of time until the hand grew bigger than the distance between both.

If Sasuke weren't moving, the hand would've never grown and move fast enough to catch Itachi.


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## Sans (Aug 10, 2015)

Nagato is above Itachi, but in terms of dueling ability they belong in the same tier.

Kishimoto made it clear that Nagato himself is on another level compared to the diluted powers his Paths wield. Itachi is capable of defeating them in combat, although he can't replicate their feat of wiping out Konoha with sheer force.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Itachi's hyped mass-illusion power was also indicated to be more valuable than Nagato as a chess piece in the war. It was repeatedly stated (by both Itachi & Nagato) that Kabuto was waiting for the perfect moment to use Itachi's power to gain the edge, not Nagato.

Nagato's significantly better in large battles and gauntlets though, no doubt about it, as he inherited Madara's legacy (Rinnegan and Gedo Mazo.) And because of that, I say Nagato's above Itachi in the traditional Battledome perspective of relative value.​


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## Tarot (Aug 10, 2015)

It's funny how Rinnegan can block Infinite Tsukiyomi, but people still think Itachi's tsukiomi can beat it.


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## David (Aug 10, 2015)

Death Arcana said:


> It's funny how Rinnegan can block Infinite Tsukiyomi, but people still think Itachi's tsukiomi can beat it.




Holy hell, I didn't think about that (probably because I skimmed the war arc with nearly zero interest).  Any good counterarguments to it?  Kinda curious.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2015)

Not sure. But regardless, Nagato's Rinnegan is a special case, because unlike all other Rinngan users, he does not have access to the powers that were there prior to the Rinnegan developing. Hence: 

Rinnegan Madara > EMS Madara > > Rinnegan Nagato

Rinnegan Sasuke > EMS Sasuke (PS) > > Rinnegan Nagato

Nagato's Rinnegan is much closer to MS than the 'true' Rinnegan. He received a "locked" version of the Rinnegan and couldn't access much of the power in the eyes like true users.​


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## Larry (Aug 10, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He probably meant if Itachi achieved it naturally.
> 
> i.e. with a Hashirama/Zetsu boost to stamina.



Yeah that's a meant. He'd be fucking 5x stronger lol.


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## Sans (Aug 11, 2015)

David said:


> Holy hell, I didn't think about that (probably because I skimmed the war arc with nearly zero interest).  Any good counterarguments to it?  Kinda curious.



I'm not really invested in it either way, but Nagato is a flailing retard with his eyes compared to Madara.


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## LostSelf (Aug 11, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Nagato is above Itachi, but in terms of dueling ability they belong in the same tier.
> 
> Kishimoto made it clear that Nagato himself is on another level compared to the diluted powers his Paths wield. Itachi is capable of defeating them in combat, although he can't replicate their feat of wiping out Konoha with sheer force.




Deva Path can still use Chibaku Tensei.

I actually think Itachi can do it very well against Pain. I just see Pain forcing him to use his MS even with simple ninjutsu that he can spam. Itachi needs MS to defeat Pain's summon. And to protect himself of Shurado's huge AoE blasts. And not to mention the probability of dying to a considerably powerful Shinra Tensei, wich Deva showed he could do.

Edo Itachi would have it better. But the living one would be drained, IMO.



Strategoob said:


> Itachi's hyped mass-illusion power was also indicated to be more valuable than Nagato as a chess piece in the war. It was repeatedly stated (by both Itachi & Nagato) that Kabuto was waiting for the perfect moment to use Itachi's power to gain the edge, not Nagato.
> 
> Nagato's significantly better in large battles and gauntlets though, no doubt about it, as he inherited Madara's legacy (Rinnegan and Gedo Mazo.) And because of that, I say Nagato's above Itachi in the traditional Battledome perspective of relative value.​




When Kabuto lost Nagato, he was visibly frustrated (and was enjoying Nagato's powers quite a lot). That loss was the one that forced him to use Madara Uchiha. Nagato looked to be more valuable than Itachi, IMO.

I thought he was going to use both powers, Rinnegan and MS Sharingan, as Itachi stated.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> When Kabuto lost Nagato, he was visibly frustrated (and was enjoying Nagato's powers quite a lot). That loss was the one that forced him to use Madara Uchiha. Nagato looked to be more valuable than Itachi, IMO.
> 
> I thought he was going to use both powers, Rinnegan and MS Sharingan, as Itachi stated.



It's more like he lost Shisui's eye, Kurama, Hachibi, Itachi, and Nagato with Nagato's loss, because he was essentially hoping to attain them all, saying how lucky he was.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 11, 2015)

Ages since the manga ends and the usual suspects _still_ think there's an argument for Itachi ITT.

Pain stomps Itachi hard. Everyone knows it, except the special few who'll argue Itachi can even beat Kayuga.


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## Ghost (Aug 11, 2015)

I see that Munboy is still lurking around, attracted by Itachi more than ever.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No. You're purposefully ignoring the point. Nagato _frequently_ sends out Path alone, where they're promptly butchered. It has happened against _all_ of Pain's opponents. Jiriaya, Naruto, Konohamaru.​



Frequently sends Paths alone against... foes who're not a threat. The moment they prove themselves strong, they end up in a group. Against strong foes, when sent individually, they're still not to far from the group.

You're not suggesting Itachi is as threatening as an academy shinobi that couldn't even bring Pain down are you? I mean, even Kakashi was able to completely disable a Path. 



> A-are you serious?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Gooby, thank you for showing me again that you're not capable of making a proper argument without "forgetting" parts of the manga while distorting context.

Kabuto controlled Nagato, Kabuto didn't know all of Nagato's powers, he didn't know the guy could sense for instance. We also saw that Nagato fights differently to when he's controlled by Kabuto, for instance Pain's use of the Rinnegan was more well thought out than say Kabuto's.

Itachi chose to counter with his Susanoo hand, unless Susano has some Hiraishin like speed, I don't think you've got a real point.

You want me to consider the Shunshin no jutsu doesn't exist and you want me to consider Pain doesn't fight as a group and you want me to consider Itahci moves as fast as Minato because you said so? I'll do that when you keep evidence in the proper context as intended and stop "forgetting" evidence.

Sage Naruto was built to tackle the strength of Pain Rikudou, as he faced (not the full might)... Itachi is not.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 11, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Frequently sends Paths alone against... foes who're not a threat.



Like the village of Konoha.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Kabuto controlled Nagato, Kabuto didn't know all of Nagato's powers



Nagato was on autopilot mode with a directive from Kabuto.

Never in the entire manga has Edo Tensei acted like you think it does here.


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## Joakim3 (Aug 12, 2015)

This particular thread is _still_ being debated?

CST, CT of GM... take your pick


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like the village of Konoha.



Everyone in Konoha is Sage Naruto level, despite Shikaku's comment, and everyone is on the level where more than a single body is required... is that what you think?
In fact Pain actually went through the trouble of getting another body to one that needed assistance, remember Kakashi.

This selective memory doesn't make the Itachi case more credible simply because it suggests we need to conveniently forget things which would work against Itachi.



> Nagato was on autopilot mode with a directive from Kabuto.
> 
> Never in the entire manga has Edo Tensei acted like you think it does here.



Auto pilot is just making the Edo bodies follow a command regardless of what they actually want to do. Kabuto taking complete control is what he did with Muu and Nagato. In fact he was dictating what jutsu Nagato would use when he controlled him, even stated that *he* tried to use shared vision to make up for mobility.

How do I know this? Unlike you, I'm not choosing to forget parts of the manga. Though remembering those parts makes your Itachi case fall apart, which probably explains why you still choose to neglect evidence and distort context.


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## LostSelf (Aug 12, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's more like he lost Shisui's eye, Kurama, Hachibi, Itachi, and Nagato with Nagato's loss, because he was essentially hoping to attain them all, saying how lucky he was.​



Well, he cursed losing Nagato, though .

Actually, he was hoping to take Naruto and Bee, because he didn't think about Itachi until he interrupted him saving them.

I still don't know why he left Itachi out of his attention like if he didn't care, considering how dangerous he would be, even if he didn't need him.

But yes, with Nagato's loss, he lost almost everything.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Well, he cursed losing Nagato, though .
> 
> Actually, he was hoping to take Naruto and Bee, because he didn't think about Itachi until he interrupted him saving them.
> 
> ...



No, that's a mistranslation.

The viz makes it clear he purposefully set up the summons to detect Itachi.

But Itachi was too good with bending weapons in blindspots.

And he cursed Nagato for failing him, not so much for Nagato's loss.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I still don't know why he left Itachi out of his attention like if he didn't care, considering how dangerous he would be, even if he didn't need him.



He set up shared vision since Kabuto-Nagato actually turned Edo Itachi into dust. The shared vision was meant to be there to try and spot Itachi if he reformed.

Though ITT I don't think Itachi would be reforming if he got hit with a ST.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 12, 2015)

Empathy said:


> "_Prime_," Nagato, I don't really consider to be a faithful representation of Akatsuki's strongest member (barring subsequent Rinnegan Obito and so forth, where the focus shifted from the organization as a whole). Prime Nagato is considered to be regular, emaciated Nagato that's been amped-up on Hachibi chakra, but without his _Edo Tensei_ abilities that incarnation had in the manga. He's sort of a made-up character that's based strongly in fact to me. Rather, _Edo Tensei_ Nagato rejuvenated by Hachibi chakra is a juiced-up incarnation of Nagato/Pain that was meant to serve as a greater obstacle to KCM Naruto, Edo Itachi, and Bee; an obstacle that none of them had the ability to surmount alone, which was a tie-in to Edo Itachi's philosophy of relying on others to do things you can't do alone that he stressed after his resurrection (the whole point of him telling Naruto he'd up like Obito if he kept trying to shoulder everything alone).
> 
> Edo Nagato (the white-haired, crippled version) or _Pein Rikudou_ wouldn't serve as a credible threat to the trio, so the author juiced-up the already marginally strongest character on the field to present an obstacle they handily cleaned up when working together. It's hard to even consider that robotic, personality-devoid version of Nagato as a character, when he more closely resembles an event or AI boss. The same is the case with healthy Itachi to a somewhat lesser extent. Itachi without illness has fast become the norm when pitting him against his peers (Minato, Tobirama, Bee etc.) Adding the stipulation that Itachi is sick (when that should be a given in my opinion) like his living manga incarnation was, is seen as nerfing him down to contend with weaker adversaries such as sick Itachi being seen as the _only_ incarnation that could have difficulty handling Jiraiya (not everyone sees this way, I'm just using it as an example).
> 
> ...








If its Sick/Alive Itachi, then he definitely loses. Itachi should be weaker than SM Naruto, who was quite a bit weaker than Pein.

But if its Edo Itachi (or healthy Itachi, which is essentially what Edo Itachi seemed to have been), then he should theoretically win. He was able to defeat an Edo and Hachibi boosted Nagato, and hold his own against KCM Naruto and Killer Bee, all of whom were stronger than Pein.​​


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## Kai (Aug 12, 2015)

Nagato > (a healthy) Itachi > Pain.

And I'm out of here.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> Nagato > (a healthy) Itachi > Pain.
> 
> And I'm out of here.



Itachi > Nagato where it counts though (the legs.)


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> Nagato > (a healthy) Itachi > Pain.
> 
> And I'm out of here.


Nagato > Pain > Itachi (healthy or not). Itachi still has stamina problems, taking away his illness wouldn't change that. Itachi is incapable of fighting Pain for long period, and would be overwhelmed by sheer numbers and eventually chakra exhaustion. The only reason why Edo Itachi 'beat' Nagato? Its because he had the backup of the two strongest Jinchuriki's. Without them he'd have been sealed in Chibaku Tensei.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 13, 2015)

What the heck is your avatar bruh.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi > Nagato where it counts though (the legs.)



Doesn't help when a Kabuto controlled Nagato, who didn't have full use of his legs, turned the strongest incarnation of Itachi (Edo) into dust. Y'know while he tended to his stronger allies.


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## Trojan (Aug 13, 2015)

Edo itachi and living itachi are the same. The only different is the Edo additional abilities like regeneration. 

Either way, he is far weaker than Pain.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Edo itachi and living itachi are the same. The only different is the Edo additional abilities like regeneration.
> 
> Either way, he is far weaker than Pain.



Actually Edo Itachi is much more powerful than healthy living Itachi. He won't drop dead after 4-5 MS uses and his chakra tops up i.e. he won't have horrible stamina for the jutsu in his arsenal.


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## Euraj (Aug 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually Edo Itachi is much more powerful than healthy living Itachi. He won't drop dead after 4-5 MS uses and his chakra tops up i.e. he won't have horrible stamina for the jutsu in his arsenal.


When Itachi was living and sick, he didn't drop dead after 4 MS usages. I don't think he has the stamina to do the spam required to handle Pain, but you can at least be realistic.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2015)

Euraj said:


> When Itachi was living and sick, he didn't drop dead after 4 MS usages. I don't think he has the stamina to do the spam required to handle Pain, but you can at least be realistic.



The 4-5 MS uses coupled with the other jutsu he used. I counted the transcription Amaterasu seal as the 5th MS shot; which is the last jutsu he used prior dying. Based on that I figured what ultimately killed him was losing all his chakra in that last jutsu.

Granted I know his illness and Susanoo exacerbating the symptoms of said illness were key contributions to his condition. But that was slowly killing him whereas using that last MS jutsu just killed him.


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## Trojan (Aug 13, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Actually Edo Itachi is much more powerful than healthy living Itachi. He won't drop dead after 4-5 MS uses and his chakra tops up i.e. he won't have horrible stamina for the jutsu in his arsenal.



The Edo Tensai get weakened as well (except for Edo Madara who has special ET and far more powerful than he really is), so if itachi keep spamming his jutsu, even as an ET, he will get weakened eventually and there will be an opening. 

That's why when he faced Kabuto, you don't see him spamming the living shit out of his MS jutsu nor was he keeping his Susanoo up 24/7. In fact, even Sasuke was worrying about him if he can still use his jutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 13, 2015)

> The Edo Tensai get weakened as well (except for Edo Madara who has special ET and far more powerful than he really is)



Wrong. Edo Madara had Rinnegan and Hashirama's Mokuton, but he didnt have his full physical prowess. "Far more powerfull" Edo Madara got immobilised by Edo Hashirama, who could also compete with him in CQC. 

Hussain, at his best.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 13, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The Edo Tensai get weakened as well (except for Edo Madara who has special ET and far more powerful than he really is), so if itachi keep spamming his jutsu, even as an ET, he will get weakened eventually and there will be an opening.
> 
> That's why when he faced Kabuto, you don't see him spamming the living shit out of his MS jutsu nor was he keeping his Susanoo up 24/7. In fact, even Sasuke was worrying about him if he can still use his jutsu.



I meant Itachi can spam jutsu. Let's say he has 100% of his chakra, if he uses all of it then with Edo Tensei it will top up all 2.5/5 of his stamina. You're right though, if he nears the lower end of his chakra reserves, he'd weaken. 
But with a small rest, it just tops back up.

Madara was one of those shinobi, unlike Itachi, who had insane chakra reserves.

Before meeting and during the battle with Kabuto he was able to use his MS for about 7 times... more times than he could while living. On top of that he used it 3 times earlier; when he was living his chakra levels took a hit after using it once before encountering chakra. With that same rest time, ET Itachi restored his chakra levels completely.

Basically chakra wise, ET Itachi always beats healthy Itachi. Which is why the latter is not going to have a good time in this match... well one of the reasons.


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## Empathy (Aug 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Zetsu was Obito's method of surveillance, and Itachi was an extreme person of interest to Obito. So I doubt it had been 5 weeks since Zetsu had been watching Itachi let alone 5 years. Sick Itachi was much more likely a very new development to him.​



But we know Itachi was intentionally pulling punches in order to not kill Sasuke, while still purposefully pushing him to his limit. Even if Zetsu knew Itachi was a good guy, it's doubtful he was privy to Itachi's entire plan for Sasuke's future. If you and I both think Zetsu was up-to-date on Itachi's capabilities, then when he says that Itachi should've been much stronger than he was, why do you assume he was comparing him to high school Itachi? Zetsu easily could've been (and probably was) referring to Itachi's strength relative to part I or earlier in part II. 

**



> It's different though. The author didn't spell out "He was severely weakened and should've been much stronger than this" after their fights like he did after Itachi fought. Zetsu saying that means that sick Itachi was an exception, not the standard state.​



I don't see how it's different, besides being a lot more vague. At least with the others, we know they had other jutsu that would've made them a lot stronger than what was shown. With Itachi, we're just told that he would've performed his jutsus better if he weren't fighting without intent to kill and wasn't a few minutes from keeling over. All those characters (and more others) being stronger than what they've shown is still the common similarity. And by sick Itachi, I don't necessarily mean Itachi just before facing Hebi Sasuke, who was going to die of illness within the hour. Itachi was sick throughout the entire main storyline in part I and II the whole time he was alive.



> Well, Itachi held back initially in order to save Naruto and Bee. Otherwise, stabbing Nagato with the Totsuka would have been doable since running in and cutting up Nagato with Susano'o hands (slower) was evidently doable.​



That's not really holding back his full strength though, like he did because he didn't want to kill Hebi Sasuke and Kabuto. It was just having to use a little less force one time in order to not potentially endanger allies for one instance. I don't really think Itachi could've done that, though. Unless I'm mistaken on this, only Eternal Mangekyou users have displayed the ability to instantly bring forth a fully-developed _Susanoo_. Itachi and MS Sasuke always had to progress from a lower form, so I don't think Itachi could've used the _Totsuka_ at that time. 

It's no big deal, really; if it were 1v1 and Nagato weren't busy with Naruto and Bee, Itachi wouldn't have gotten a free shot. I doubt you'd be satisfied if Itachi had defeated Nagato by just stabbing him in the back. I don't see why he couldn't have done it then if he wanted to (assuming he was capable). _Totsuka_ penetration seems to halt any active jutsu, seeing as it ended Kabuto's control, and it's not like Naruto and Bee would've been sucked up with him. When Edos were fatally injured, I don't think any of them were able to use jutsu until they regenerated. 



> It's also worth noting that if Nagato did not have Edo Tensei, he wouldn't have been able to use Chibaku Tensei, since Itachi had removed both his arms with Amaterasu and Susano'o before that point. They just regenerated back thanks to Edo Tensei.​



Eh, maybe Asura arm regeneration would've been an option? He probably didn't have to take any damage from _Amaterasu_ if he didn't want to. I don't really see how that's worth mentioning. It's not like Itachi wouldn't have died a whole bunch against Kabuto if he weren't _Edo Tensei_. 

Shifting focus from Itachi, who you're arguing would've been in his prime if we use high school Itachi—what's your opinion of my analysis on, "_prime_," Nagato as opposed to Pain, being an unfaithful representation of the character due to never having been rejuvenated by Hachibi chakra in life.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 24, 2015)

Empathy said:


> But we know Itachi was intentionally pulling punches in order to not kill Sasuke, while still purposefully pushing him to his limit. Even if Zetsu knew Itachi was a good guy, it's doubtful he was privy to Itachi's entire plan for Sasuke's future. If you and I both think Zetsu was up-to-date on Itachi's capabilities, then when he says that Itachi should've been much stronger than he was, why do you assume he was comparing him to high school Itachi? Zetsu easily could've been (and probably was) referring to Itachi's strength relative to part I or earlier in part II.



This doesn't really impact my view either way, the main point being that Itachi was usually "much stronger" and 'sick Itachi' shown was exceptionally weak compared to his usual self.​


Empathy said:


> I don't see how it's different, besides being a lot more vague. At least with the others, we know they had other jutsu that would've made them a lot stronger than what was shown.



That is the difference. It wasn't a jutsu held back, but his usage. It makes it much easier for his character to be underestimated, because he purposefully used his arsenal ineffectively.​


Empathy said:


> That's not really holding back his full strength though, like he did because he didn't want to kill Hebi Sasuke and Kabuto.



Given how short the encounter was, it might as well have been. Itachi didn't go "all out" until he sealed Nagato, because prior to that he was busy saving Naruto and Bee from Nagato's grip.​


Empathy said:


> Eh, maybe Asura arm regeneration would've been an option? He probably didn't have to take any damage from _Amaterasu_ if he didn't want to.



Yeah, that's possible.​


Empathy said:


> what's your opinion of my analysis on, "_prime_," Nagato as opposed to Pain, being an unfaithful representation of the character due to never having been rejuvenated by Hachibi chakra in life.



"Prime Nagato" fought Hanzo, no?​


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