# EoS Aizen vs Juudara(Rinne-Sharingan)



## Steven (Oct 5, 2021)

Titel


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## accountmaker (Oct 5, 2021)

Couldn't wait five minutes for a mod to approve HST threads again could you


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 5, 2021)

Ks gg


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 5, 2021)

@MusubiKazesaru @Iwandesu  dunno what your situations is with the O be dee, but assuming you are still involved here, this shit is banned.

Either lock it or give the ok that HST threads are good again.

Reactions: Old 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

@Ziggy Jumping the gun man. Wait for mods to be online to discuss this

Anyway squash match. Juubi Madara severally outdoes anyone in Bleach and can solo most of the verse

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Hado 99 gg.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Xelioszzapporro (Oct 5, 2021)

EOS Aizen wins soundly.

*- *Hado 90
*- *Hado 99
*-* Immortality
*-* Kyoka Suigetsu
*- *Reiatsu that expands from Soul Society all the way up to Royal Guards* (which takes a week to cross with normal Shunpo)*

Juudara can't beat Aizen Sosuke....


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## Xelioszzapporro (Oct 5, 2021)

Juudara spams Limbos and Chibaku Tenseis.

Aizen just says* , *_"When you're cleaning the house it doesn't make much difference if there's one piece of dirt, or two."_
And then destroys everyone and their moms.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Remind me again what Hado 99 did again that’s relevant


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Remind me again what Hado 99 did again that’s relevant


Nothing,but it should be stronger than Hado 90.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Commander Shunsui (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Remind me again what Hado 99 did again that’s relevant


Nothing in the manga. It's visually amazing and should be extremely strong but... with no damage done its hard to rate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Nothing,but it should be stronger than Hado 90.


And remind me what Hado 90 did again that will matter to a guy that can defend against several Juubi bombs going off on in a closed space vs TSBs and tanked a Lava Rasenshuriken from So6P Naruto again


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> And remind me what Hado 90 did again that will matter to a guy that can defend against several Juubi bombs going off on in a closed space vs TSBs and tanked a Lava Rasenshuriken from So6P Naruto again


Well,a Hado 90 Can distort space.
It also Destroyed Attacks from Reio yhwach.aizen with his reiatsu brought down the soul palace aswell,Hado 99 should scale above that because 99>90

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Well,a Hado 90 Can distort space.
> It also Destroyed Attacks from Reio yhwach.aizen with his reiatsu brought down the soul palace aswell,Hado 99 should scale above that because 99>90


And? Nothing Yhwach did beyond wipe out a few city blocks in his fight with Aizen, nevermind that Aizen was nothing more than a glorified punching bag throughout the fight


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> And? Nothing Yhwach did beyond wipe out a few city blocks in his fight with Aizen,


Sure,if you forget that Yhwach Held together Hueco mundo,Soul Society,and the world of the living.


Rev97 said:


> nevermind that Aizen was nothing more than a glorified punching bag throughout the fight


So would anyone else who falls to the almighty.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Sure,if you forget that Yhwach Held together Hueco mundo,Soul Society,and the world of the living.
> 
> So would anyone else who falls to the almighty.


And that tells me nothing. If we’re going to go with hyperbolic, unquantifiable nonsense to hype a character way beyond what they’ve ever actually shown and whose leagues stronger than Aizen anyway, Kaguya was going to wipe out and create a whole new universe right from scratch. Juubidara isn’t too far behind since he fought two people strong enough to challenge her


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## MrPopo (Oct 5, 2021)




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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> And that tells me nothing. If we’re going to go with hyperbolic, unquantifiable nonsense to hype a character way beyond what they’ve ever actually shown and whose leagues stronger than Aizen anyway, Kaguya was going to wipe out and create a whole new universe right from scratch. Juubidara isn’t too far behind since he fought two people strong enough to challenge her


Those Two people were beating Madara,and your basically doing the same thing:


Rev97 said:


> And that tells me nothing. If we’re going to go with hyperbolic, unquantifiable nonsense to hype a character


Your using Unquantifiable Nonsense to hype madara,as he’s never shown that he can do that  
And also when has anyone in Naruto ever displayed Universal D/C?


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Those Two people were beating Madara,and your basically doing the same thing:
> 
> Your using Unquantifiable Nonsense to hype madara,as he’s never shown that he can do that
> And also when has anyone in Naruto ever displayed Universal D/C?


When has anyone in Bleach ever even approached planetary D/C

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> When has anyone in Bleach ever even approached planetary D/C


dodging my question I see,and also I never once stated that bleach has planetary D/C


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> dodging my question I see,and also I never once stated that bleach has planetary D/C


Why do I need to answer a rhetorical question anyway? I obviously don’t think anyone in Naruto is actually universal


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Why do I need to answer a rhetorical question anyway? I obviously don’t think anyone in Naruto is actually universal


good,so how does Madara compare to Kaguya?


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## accountmaker (Oct 5, 2021)

Now I remember why hst threads were banned

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

^^


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## Iwandesu (Oct 5, 2021)

TYPE-Rey said:


> @MusubiKazesaru @Iwandesu  dunno what your situations is with the O be dee, but assuming you are still involved here, this shit is banned.
> 
> Either lock it or give the ok that HST threads are good again.


I mean, legit question.
Do you guys think this will devolve into a shitstorm ?
Do people even care about hst anymore ?


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## Iwandesu (Oct 5, 2021)

f


accountmaker said:


> Now I remember why hst threads were banned


fair enough


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## Commander Shunsui (Oct 5, 2021)

Iwandesu said:


> I mean, legit question.
> Do you guys think this will devolve into a shitstorm ?
> Do people even care about hst anymore ?


I think unless characters have a way to fully eliminate someone other fights should be banned. Like Yhwach, and Gerard for example since they've only shown so much but their way of being killed leads to people bringing up huge NLFs to turn it into a shitstorm


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## Commander Shunsui (Oct 5, 2021)

Other than that they should be fine


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Yhwach is easy. He got killed by attacks he didn’t see coming 3 times and seems to have a limit on how much he can revive himself 

Gerard can only be argued on the extent hes able to regenerate


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## Steven (Oct 5, 2021)

Yhwachs regen is not even good.

Just destroy his whole Body and he is gone.He never showed regen like The Miracle


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Yhwach is easy. He got killed by attacks he didn’t see coming 3 times and seems to have a limit on how much he can revive himself
> 
> Gerard can only be argued on the extent hes able to regenerate


Yhwach only does to a quincy arrow that _halted his power he has no limit to how much he can change.

And Gerard can’t die,only by Aushwhalen light._


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Yhwachs regen is not even good.
> 
> Just destroy his whole Body and he is gone.He never showed regen like The Miracle


Ichigo already cut him in half and he came back Via almighty.


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## Vermilion Kn (Oct 5, 2021)

What is there to  debate when it comes to the HST anyway ?

The pecking order among them  is pretty much set in stone at this point. Bleach via hax>>Nardo>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>One Piece. Outside of Nardo and Bleach Top and God tiers there are no characters worth discussing, and there is no indication that One Piece will reach Bleach/Nardo levels of power or Hax.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Yhwach only does to a quincy arrow that _halted his power he has no limit to how much he can change.
> 
> And Gerard can’t die,only by Aushwhalen light._


Powers only negated for a moment. Ichigo sliced him and he died, took years to come back, and got killed for good by Ichigo’s kid.

So nothing in all of fiction can kill Gerard besides Quincy Hitler huh?


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Powers only negated for a moment. Ichigo sliced him and he died, took years to come back, and got killed for good by Ichigo’s kid.


Yes,and Last time I checked no one outside of _dead Quincies _have that arrow.


Rev97 said:


> So nothing in all of fiction can kill Gerard besides Quincy Hitler huh?


Yes.


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## Vermilion Kn (Oct 5, 2021)

Lol this shit again. 

Gerard vs Beyonder.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Yes,and Last time I checked no one outside of _dead Quincies _have that arrow.
> 
> Yes.


Don’t matter. Can just killed Yhwach enough times to where he doesn’t come back anymore.

Ichigo’s kid didn’t need the arrow


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## BossKitten (Oct 5, 2021)

Aizen will hit him with that KS for the win, lol.


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Don’t matter. Can just killed Yhwach enough times to where he doesn’t come back anymore.
> 
> Ichigo’s kid didn’t need the arrow


He literally needed Uryu to shoot the arrow into yhwach to kill him,yhwach can infinitely come back as long as he has almighty


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> He literally needed Uryu to shoot the arrow into yhwach to kill him,yhwach can infinitely come back as long as he has almighty


That’s fine. But I’m talking about Ichigo’s kid killing him well after the arrows effects wore off


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> That’s fine. But I’m talking about Ichigo’s kid killing him well after the arrows effects wore off


That’s a remnant of yhwach,not yhwach himself,plus That Thing that He killed didn’t have the almighty.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> That’s a remnant of yhwach,not yhwach himself,plus That Thing that He killed didn’t have the almighty.


So kill him enough times that he can only come back a remnant, than finish him for good. Simple


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> So kill him enough times that he can only come back a remnant, than finish him for good. Simple


You can’t do that unless you have the arrow.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> You can’t do that unless you have the arrow.


Said arrow that only works for a moment and was already wearing out by the time Ichigo cut him.

Yhwach still couldn’t revive anyway and needed years to come back only to get literally bitch slapped by a kid

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Said arrow that only works for a moment and was already wearing out by the time Ichigo cut him.
> 
> Yhwach still couldn’t revive anyway and needed years to come back only to get literally bitch slapped by a kid


The arrow was active the whole time when Ichigo slashed him otherwise he would’ve used the almighty to bring himself back.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> The arrow was active the whole time when Ichigo slashed him otherwise he would’ve used the almighty to bring himself back.


Nope








Spelled out no less than three times that it only lasted a moment with the effects already wearing out around the time Ichigo cuts him.

And as we see in the next chapter, after Yhwach is cut in half by Ichigo, he still takes some time to die for good and just monologues a bit before croaking

All we know is that after this death, he takes years to come back again as a blob thing that gets finished off for good by Ichigo’s kid. No arrow needed. So it stands based on feats that he can only use Almighty to revive after a certain number of times


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You don’t know when it wore out,He said in a “moment” as in the moment was still in play ,Otherwise he would’ve Used The almighty.


Rev97 said:


> And as we see in the next chapter, after Yhwach is cut in half by Ichigo, he still takes some time to die for good and just monologues a bit before croaking


Ok and?Villains always Have their last words to make the reader feel sympathetic,Yhwach still died regardless from the arrow,the end.


Rev97 said:


> All we know is that after this death, he takes years to come back again as a blob thing that gets finished off for good by Ichigo’s kid. No arrow needed


I already addressed this


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## Vermilion Kn (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> You don’t know when it wore out,He said in a “moment” as in the moment was still in play ,Otherwise he would’ve Used The almighty.
> 
> Ok and?Villains always Have their last words to make the reader feel sympathetic,Yhwach still died regardless from the arrow,the end.
> 
> I already addressed this


You're basically debating Kubo's shitty writing at this point. 

Face it that entire last arc made no sense.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> You don’t know when it wore out,He said in a “moment” as in the moment was still in play ,Otherwise he would’ve Used The almighty.
> 
> Ok and?Villains always Have their last words to make the reader feel sympathetic,Yhwach still died regardless from the arrow,the end.
> 
> I already addressed this


We do know. Uryuu already saying Ichigo’s out of time right as he swings, meaning anything afterwards including Yhwach’s monologue is past the arrow’s effects


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Vermilion Kn said:


> You're basically debating Kubo's shitty writing at this point.
> 
> Face it that entire last arc made no sense.


It didn’t but I’m just going Off what kubo wrote.


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> We do know. Uryuu already saying Ichigo’s out of time right as he swings, meaning anything afterwards including Yhwach’s monologue is past the arrow’s effects


Uryu didn’t Say he’s  out of time 


He said he won’t make it in time basically Uryu doubting Ichigo bro,this is basic reading comprehension,that doesn’t mean he’s out of time it means His Time is Almost up,and This makes sense because if His time was up Yhwach would’ve Used almighty and would’ve still been alive.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Uryu didn’t Say he’s  out of time
> 
> 
> He said he won’t make it in time basically Uryu doubting Ichigo bro,this is basic reading comprehension,that doesn’t mean he’s out of time it means His Time is Almost up,and This makes sense because if His time was up Yhwach would’ve Used almighty and would’ve still been alive.


Your basically just saying what I’m saying what I’ll twisting it around to meet your headcanon.

Unless Ichigo’s swing takes at least several minutes to happen which is when the arrow loses its effectiveness, Yhwach’s death happened well after said arrow lost its powers


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Your basically just saying what I’m saying what I’ll twisting it around to meet your headcanon.


How is it head canon when it happened in the manga,YWHACH *died because he got a hit by Quincy Arrow that halted his powers, Otherwise he would’ve came back with the almighty,Your twisting it to seem like The arrow wasn’t needed To kill yhwach when the manga Explicitly showed this *




Rev97 said:


> Unless Ichigo’s swing takes at least several minutes to happen which is when the arrow loses its effectiveness, Yhwach’s death


*I already addressed this,Ichigo did not run out of time,Uryu didn’t say He’s Out of time he said,”he *won’t make it” means he still has time and Uryu just doubted him.
^^this is what Uryu said

*compared to what your saying:*

“he did not make it in time” which means that he didn’t make it as it says.

He obviously did make it, as yhwach would not die without the arrow being fired in him because it halted his power,stated by the manga.



Rev97 said:


> *happened well after said arrow lost its powers*


You literally have no proof of this while I discredited everything you said.


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## Steven (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Ichigo already cut him in half and he came back Via almighty.


Yeah,cut in half

Destroy his brain and he is toast


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> How is it head canon when it happened in the manga,YWHACH *died because he got a hit by Quincy Arrow that halted his powers, Otherwise he would’ve came back with the almighty,Your twisting it to seem like The arrow wasn’t needed To kill yhwach when the manga Explicitly showed this *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The arrow was only to save Ichigo from being killed by Yhwach and allow him at least enough time to get close enough.

“He won’t make it” just as Ichigo is about to swing meaning that at any point after that was when the arrow was already wearing out. 

Yhwach’s death was literally a whole chapter later


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Yeah,cut in half
> 
> Destroy his brain and he is toast


Sure,Shoot him with the arrow and Destroy his brain.


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> The arrow was only to save Ichigo from being killed by Yhwach and allow him at least enough time to get close enough.


That’s your Head canon,it explicitly said That Yhwach powers were halted to kill yhwach,as before when Yhwach had the almighty active he was unkillable.


Rev97 said:


> “He won’t make it” just as Ichigo is about to swing meaning that at any point after that was when the arrow was already wearing out.


No it doesn’t,I’ve already discredited and I don’t feel like repeating my self,reread my other posts.


Rev97 said:


> Yhwach’s death was literally a whole chapter later


Literally in the same chapter:


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> That’s your Head canon,it explicitly said That Yhwach powers were halted to kill yhwach,as before when Yhwach had the almighty active he was unkillable.
> 
> No it doesn’t,I’ve already discredited and I don’t feel like repeating my self,reread my other posts.
> 
> Literally in the same chapter:


It’s not my headcanon. It’s literally what happens. Yhwach was moments from killing Ichigo before the arrow shot him.

Don’t bother repeating since your not proving anything.

Chapter 686 for Yhwach’s monologue to Ichigo before dying. Could have revived any time at that point


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> It’s not my headcanon. It’s literally what happens. Yhwach was moments from killing Ichigo before the arrow shot him.


Aizen and Ichigo defeating yhwach :

yhwach coming back via almighty:
But why didn’t he come back in the final battle with the Quincy arrow?Because his powers were halted:



Rev97 said:


> Don’t bother repeating since your not proving anything.


If I’m not proving anything then what are you doing?


Rev97 said:


> Chapter 686 for Yhwach’s monologue to Ichigo before dying. Could have revived any time at that point


No he couldn’t,his power was halted and he was dying,if he could have revived at any point of time then why didn’t he do it?Go on,because previously when he died against Ichigo he revived.


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

@Rev97 please tell me your trolling so I can Laugh at this instead of feeling like im stupid.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Aizen and Ichigo defeating yhwach :
> 
> yhwach coming back via almighty:
> But why didn’t he come back in the final battle with the Quincy arrow?Because his powers were halted:
> ...


Yes that’s his first death. The second one stuck a lot more with him taking years to come back and the third was the charm.

Already explained why the arrow did nothing beyond save Ichigo and give him a momentary breather


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## OtherGalaxy (Oct 5, 2021)

the absolute state of the obd. lmao

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Yes that’s his first death. The second one stuck a lot more with him taking years to come back and the third was the charm.


The 3rd was the charm to a Remnant of yhwach,Not even a Full version just a piece of yhwach and that yhwach didn’t have the almighty.


Rev97 said:


> Already explained why the arrow did nothing beyond save Ichigo and give him a momentary breather


You didn’t explain nothing,your spouting what you think instead of Not even providing solid evidence for your claim.


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## BossKitten (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Nope
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You can literally see that Bach doesn't have The Almighty back during all this by looking at Bach's eyes. It really isn't that difficult.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> The 3rd was the charm to a Remnant of yhwach,Not even a Full version just a piece of yhwach and that yhwach didn’t have the almighty.
> 
> You didn’t explain nothing,your spouting what you think instead of Not even providing solid evidence for your claim.


And thus, it means after getting killed a second time, he can only come back a remnant and after several years at that.




BossKitten said:


> You can literally see that Bach doesn't have The Almighty back during all this by looking at Bach's eyes. It really isn't that difficult.


That’s fine since I never argued Yhwach having his powers at that point anyway. I’m referring to well afterwards where he’s alive for some time which is well after the arrow should have no longer worked.

Still dies and stays dead for years at that


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> And thus, it means after getting killed a second time, he can only come back a remnant and after several years at


Yes,after getting his powers halted, he can finally *DIE. *


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> That’s fine since I never argued Yhwach having his powers at that point anyway. I’m referring to well afterwards where he’s alive for some time which is well after the arrow should have no longer worked.


Do you have proof of the arrows affects coming off?your literally saying “should” meaning you have no definite proof of your claim.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> Do you have proof of the arrows affects coming off?your literally saying “should” meaning you have no definite proof of your claim.


Uryu says it’s too late roughly around the time Ichigo swings. So that’s a pretty fair measurement of when the arrow that’s flat out said to only last a moment, not several years, to wear out


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Uryu says it’s too late roughly around the time Ichigo swings. So that’s a pretty fair measurement of when the arrow that’s flat out said to only last a moment, not several years, to wear out


yhwach did not have the almighty then,has his eyes did not have that of the almighty this is one page before his death btw


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> yhwach did not have the almighty then,has his eyes did not have that of the almighty this is one page before his death btw


Again, I was never arguing that. I’m talking after Ichigo cuts him in half and well after Uryu said the arrows effects would wear off. All Ichigo needed to do was mortally wound him again


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

It makes sense too for Yhwach to be limited in how much he uses the Almighty.

Gremmy showed similar limitations in his Visionary like needing to create a clone to have enough power to conjure a meteor and being visibly exhausted after creating the meteor and an explosion on Kenpachi.

After he injured himself trying to imitate Kenpachi, he no longer had any remaining power to revive himself and even said he was at his limit before dying


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Again, I was never arguing that. I’m talking after Ichigo cuts him in half and well after Uryu said the arrows effects would wear off. All Ichigo needed to do was mortally wound him again


well after Uryu said these so called “affects” would wear off it didn’t.

your blatantly lying to yourself.
The Affects never even wore off,Yhwach died Because he didn’t have the almighty It’s simple as that.


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> It makes sense too for Yhwach to be limited in how much he uses the Almighty.


Your head canon,almighty has never been shown in the manga to have any type of weakness like that.


Rev97 said:


> Gremmy showed similar limitations in his Visionary like needing to create a clone to have enough power to conjure a meteor and being visibly exhausted after creating the meteor and an explosion on Kenpachi.


Your comparing Gremmy to yhwach?


Rev97 said:


> After he injured himself trying to imitate Kenpachi, he no longer had any remaining power to revive himself and even said he was at his limit before dying


Your comparing gremmy to yhwach?


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

Starkk said:


> well after Uryu said these so called “affects” would wear off it didn’t.
> 
> your blatantly lying to yourself.
> The Affects never even wore off,Yhwach died Because he didn’t have the almighty It’s simple as that.


Nice headcanon. A “moment” apparently is several years.

If your going to deny what’s spelled out to you for your omnipotent Quincy Hitler, than we’re done


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Nice headcanon. A “moment” apparently is several years.
> 
> If your going to deny what’s spelled out to you for your omnipotent Quincy Hitler, than we’re done


Well your ignoring the manga itself,The manga states that Yhwach power was halted,A panel before Yhwach was coming back after every attack via almighty,later in the manga when Uryu shot the arrow he didn’t come back,Well that means that he didn’t have the almighty,Jesus if you don’t have this basic understanding of the manga Just leave this conversation.


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## BossKitten (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> And thus, it means after getting killed a second time, he can only come back a remnant and after several years at that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Bach was revived, gathered an army, stole Yama-jii's bankai, and took a beating from Ichibei just to reactivate his Almighty powers.  Then he proceeded to get his power taken away and beaten by Ichigo. Even if he is reborn, nothing suggest that his Almighty powers would come back while he is at his weakest possible state. If he did have it, he would have seen that Ichigo's kid was going to do what he did.


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

No really according to @Starkk there was never any urgency at all for Ichigo to cut Yhwach.

He could just walk away, maybe a grab a drink, and still have all the time in the world because the arrow negated Yeehaw’s powers indefinitely 

It’s like I’m being told a completely different series


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## Rev97 (Oct 5, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Bach was revived, gathered an army, stole Yama-jii's bankai, and took a beating from Ichibei just to reactivate his Almighty powers.  Then he proceeded to get his power taken away and beaten by Ichigo. Even if he is reborn, nothing suggest that his Almighty powers would come back while he is at his weakest possible state. If he did have it, he would have seen that Ichigo's kid was going to do what he did.


Sounds about right. Like I said, he has clear limits. He flat out says there’s things like the Soul King’s Right Arm that are too strong for his Almighty and he clearly has issues with getting killed more than once

By far the most overwanked character in the entire HST


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## Colmillo (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> No really according to @Starkk there was never any urgency at all for Ichigo to cut Yhwach.


He already cut yhwach in canon,there was definitely an urgency to cut yhwach it’s a war  


Rev97 said:


> He could just walk away, maybe a grab a drink, and still have all the time in the world because the arrow negated Yeehaw’s powers indefinitel
> It’s like I’m being told a completely different series


Advice:Stop listening to your head and read the manga.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## BossKitten (Oct 5, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Sounds about right. Like I said, he has clear limits. He flat out says there’s things like the Soul King’s Right Arm that are too strong for his Almighty and he clearly has issues with getting killed more than once
> 
> By far the most overwanked character in the entire HST



Yes, he has limits, but those aren't ones displayed by anyone in the Narutoverse, other than Kaguya, possibly. 

Bach was going to destroy the 3 worlds, the only question was the time-frame in which it would take place, but considering it's mid-battle against sub-rev people, it couldn't have taken too long. Ichigo has more raw power than Bach, but was still susceptible to The Almighty, which means there had to be something special about Mimi as to why he could not be seen/accounted for. 

Also, getting killed is part of being a bad-guy, being able to rewrite his own death to come back to life is useful in those kind of situations, which brings everything back to why Ishida's arrow was needed to take away The Almighty so that Bach could actually be beaten forreal, and even then, he revived years later.


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## MShadows (Oct 6, 2021)

Dunno about this Madara, but the latest Bleach calcs put EoS Aizen at multi-continental and sub-relativistic. How does that compare?

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 6, 2021)

As Shadows said, EOS Aizen is immortal, has KS and Petaton AP.

I don’t think this a murderstomp anymore.

Yhwach couldn’t kill Aizen, I don’t think Madara will. If you can survive being absorbed by Yhwach, probably won’t care until it gets to attacks beyond his regen.

What DC and speed does this Madara have? Because Bleach also got a speed Zenkai.


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## accountmaker (Oct 6, 2021)

MShadows said:


> Dunno about this Madara, but the latest Bleach calcs put EoS Aizen at multi-continental and sub-relativistic. How does that compare?


Planet level with a lightspeed attack and mind control hax/resistance. And some other shit too


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## Steven (Oct 6, 2021)

Shoulnd Madara immune to KS?


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 6, 2021)

That’s the part of the debate I don’t have the energy for. KS is supposed to be perfect and it did fool the Almighty, which has precognition that embarrasses Sharingan. He can see all futures and he didn’t see himself falling under KS.


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## Steven (Oct 6, 2021)

Again,that was Pre-Almighty

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 6, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Again,that was Pre-Almighty



I don’t want to think that you believe Yhwach was ever pre-almighty during the fight.

The guy has a power to see the future, whether the illusion was released before or not isn’t relevant to the point, the fancy eyes meant fuck all.

Personally, I think so will Madara’s. Even without KS anyway, we’ve got an immortal vs an not quite immortal.


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## Steven (Oct 6, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> I don’t want to think that you believe Yhwach was ever pre-almighty during the fight.
> 
> The guy has a power to see the future, whether the illusion was released before or not isn’t relevant to the point, the fancy eyes meant fuck all.
> 
> Personally, I think so will Madara’s. Even without KS anyway, we’ve got an immortal vs an not quite immortal.


Wait,Iirc Chair Aizen used KS early in the Arc on Yhwach?Or did he use it it in the final fight as well?

I only remember Aizen attacked him with his sword once and lost his arm


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 6, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Wait,Iirc Chair Aizen used KS early in the Arc on Yhwach?Or did he use it it in the final fight as well?
> 
> I only remember Aizen attacked him with his sword once and lost his arm



During the fight with Aizen and Ichigo, he states that he knows who he is striking, then calls Aizen Ichigo, because he thinks Aizen is Ichigo. All we know from the visit is that Aizen was sealed and he messed with Yhwach’s sense of time. According to Yhwach.

However Yhwach has Ks intel, it was pre-almighty. 

However, I assume you want to argue the Rinnegan just negs it?

It’s some kind of equivalence thing? But nothing has ever negged it once it’s off. The Shikai release isn’t the illusion itself, it’s just a ceremony to put you under KS. I don’t think Sharingan/Rinnegan will be useful after that. 

Plus we can’t prove he used KS as sense of time shouldn’t be under KS umbrella.

It’s a weird one, but for me I don’t think Fancy eyes help, Yhwach could see every future like sand, didn’t help him for shit. He saw an illusion in the future. KS works on future sight/precog.

You could very easily argue either side, so personally I’d rather say fuck KS vs Sharingan/Rinnegan etc and ask.

Can Madara even permanently kill Aizen? Because I’m pretty sure the reverse isn’t true considering Yhwach absorbed him and that didn’t matter either.

On the Yhwach latent Reiatsu point, Yhwach that showed up panels later for Ichigo’s kid, it’s not actual Yhwach. It is remnants of power, Yhwach is a corpse maintaining the balance of the worlds. Plus Ichigo’s kid was probably born more powerful than most Shinigami, literally more of a hybrid race than Ichigo himself I’d imagine (Quincy, Fullbring, Hollow, Shinigami and Human probably) Comparing a bit of his Reiatsu to prime SK Yhwach is absolutely ridiculous.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 6, 2021)

Basically we’ve got someone that can see through illusions with someone who’s entire thing is that his illusions can’t be seen through, it’s perfect.

Based on most threads I read back about it, no one can ever agree which one trumps the other. People also bring up the sound illusion working on Pein, but Pein isn’t original owner etc etc.

Honestly, it’s a shitshow. Bleach fans say it won’t break it, Nardo fans say it will. It’ll be 7 pages of that.


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## B Rabbit (Oct 6, 2021)

Got this is a shit show.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## accountmaker (Oct 6, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Got this is a shit show.


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## Alita (Oct 6, 2021)

So HST threads are unbanned again?


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## Steven (Oct 6, 2021)

Alita said:


> So HST threads are unbanned again?


Yes,they are


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## BossKitten (Oct 7, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Basically we’ve got someone that can see through illusions with someone who’s entire thing is that his illusions can’t be seen through, it’s perfect.
> 
> Based on most threads I read back about it, no one can ever agree which one trumps the other. People also bring up the sound illusion working on Pein, but Pein isn’t original owner etc etc.
> 
> Honestly, it’s a shitshow. Bleach fans say it won’t break it, Nardo fans say it will. It’ll be 7 pages of that.



Didn't Kakashi use clones on both Pein and Itachi (sharingan and rin users)?

Also, wasn't it stated that the byakugan has some insight advantage over the sharingan, yet clones still worked on that too?

The Narutoverse dojutsu record seems a bit overhyped.


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## accountmaker (Oct 7, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Didn't Kakashi use clones on both Pein and Itachi (sharingan and rin users)?
> 
> Also, wasn't it stated that the byakugan has some insight advantage over the sharingan, yet clones still worked on that too?
> 
> The Narutoverse dojutsu record seems a bit overhyped.


The clones are pretty irrelevant. The nature of shadow clones in naruto make it so they can't be put under genjutsu, but this doesn't always apply when we equalize energies.

Clones don't "work" on the sharingan or byakugan. The sharingan can't differentiate between the real user and a clone, but the Byakugan can. The reason Neji didn't notice Naruto's clone after their clash was because he was exhausted and didn't have it on lol

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## BossKitten (Oct 7, 2021)

accountmaker said:


> The clones are pretty irrelevant. The nature of shadow clones in naruto make it so they can't be put under genjutsu, but this doesn't always apply when we equalize energies.
> 
> Clones don't "work" on the sharingan or byakugan. The sharingan can't differentiate between the real user and a clone, but the Byakugan can. The reason Neji didn't notice Naruto's clone after their clash was because he was exhausted and didn't have it on lol



Didn't Naruto fool Kaguya with a clone too? 

The clones aren't irrelevant because it shows that you can still be fooled, even with the dojutsus. These dojutsus are supposed to have precog, perceive energy, and see through illusions to some type of degree, yet clones worked on each dojutsu. It shows that if something is replicated good enough, you can fool each set of magic eyes.


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## accountmaker (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Didn't Naruto fool Kaguya with a clone too?
> 
> The clones aren't irrelevant because it shows that you can still be fooled, even with the dojutsus. These dojutsus are supposed to have precog, perceive energy, and see through illusions to some type of degree, yet clones worked on each dojutsu. It shows that if something is replicated good enough, you can fool each set of magic eyes.


Anything involving Kaguya at this point is iffy. 
Huh you might be right. I can't find an official source that says the byakugan can see through clones


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## Deer Lord (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Didn't Naruto fool Kaguya with a clone too?
> 
> The clones aren't irrelevant because it shows that you can still be fooled, even with the dojutsus. These dojutsus are supposed to have precog, perceive energy, and see through illusions to some type of degree, yet clones worked on each dojutsu. It shows that if something is replicated good enough, you can fool each set of magic eyes.


Shadow clones are essentially a complete, solid, physical copy of you. They are for all intents and purposes a temporary person. 

They are also the only type of clone dojutsu can't differentiate between because all the other types are either illusions or mocks. 

So not seeing through shadow clones really has nothing to do with resistance to illusions.


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

It was always going to come down to this anyway, so who here thinks Madara can see through KS? Who doesn’t?


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Deer Lord said:


> Shadow clones are essentially a complete, solid, physical copy of you. They are for all intents and purposes a temporary person.
> 
> They are also the only type of clone dojutsu can't differentiate between because all the other types are either illusions or mocks.
> 
> So not seeing through shadow clones really has nothing to do with resistance to illusions.



A copy is still a fake no matter how you want to describe it. It's basically a solidified illusion, or can be described as one you can interact with.


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## MarF (Oct 8, 2021)

accountmaker said:


> Clones don't "work" on the sharingan or byakugan. The sharingan can't differentiate between the real user and a clone, but the Byakugan can. The reason Neji didn't notice Naruto's clone after their clash was because he was exhausted and didn't have it on lol



Wrong.

Shadow clones are a perfect copy of the user with their own chakra system, every clone created also splits the users chakra perfectly in half, making it impossible to tell them apart from the original.

Neji outright tells us this.





MShadows said:


> Dunno about this Madara, but the latest Bleach calcs put EoS Aizen at multi-continental and sub-relativistic. How does that compare?



Madara's stats are debatable.

He's is at least continent+ level scaling from the Juubi, his attack range is planetary with Mokuton and Genjutsu if he has time to prep Mugen Tsukiyomi and there's a moon available for him to use. 

At best he's small planet level(4 zettatons), depending on whether or not you want to scale him to Toneri, I personally would scale three eyed Juudara to Toneri.

For speed he scales to mach ~30k, base Momoshiki and Kinshiki were calced at that speed when flying through space or something like that.

If LazyWaka's light fang calc is accepted, he's relativistic.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

What about his Dura? If that’s small planet this is a stomp thread.

Otherwise with immortality and sub rel speeds, Aizen can probably win. Though without the immortality it switches to a stomp the other way.


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## Shining Force (Oct 8, 2021)

Not this KS GG shit again (which is overwanked and actually quite useless against ppl with superior durability like Superman) as if we're back to early 2010s. 3-Eyed Madara as a mid/high god-tier is clearly superior than the low god-tiers like Toneri (sub-rel and small planet) who Naruto can mid-diff even without full power. He is also immortal post-Shinju and requires superior DC or seals to fully take him down. That is even without mentioning his full arsenal like several Limbos (which requires rikudo chakra to perceive/interact against) and IT which has global potency (and yes OBD mainly determines potency of illusion/mind control by how many ppl they can affect, which is why SW characters mostly trump in this area).

With that said, even with equalized stats all you get is both fighting for eternity as they will keep regen'ing any damage (assuming TSB doesn't nullify Aizen's regen).

Reactions: Informative 1


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## MarF (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> What about his Dura? If that’s small planet this is a stomp thread.



Probably.

Once again it comes down to whether or not you want to scale three eyed Juudara to Toneri in stats.

If you ask me, scaling this version of Madara 100% accurately is impossible. He didn't do much after gaining his second eye. Apart from MT, the strongest attack he used was a glorified distraction that Naruto didn't have much issue countering.

Naruto got even stronger when fighting Kaguya, to the point where I'd argue he could solo three eyed Juudara. He has better speed and strength feats and can mess with the Bijuu chakra inside of him. TL Naruto is above Kaguya fight Naruto imo, but TL Naruto was also above Toneri in raw stats, who's most dangerous ability is his overpowered chakra drain.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

My answer all depends on that really. So I suppose I’ll stick with Aizen for now. If we can definitely scale him, then I’ll flip.


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Shining Force said:


> Not this KS GG shit again (which is overwanked and actually quite useless against ppl with superior durability like Superman) as if we're back to early 2010s. 3-Eyed Madara as a mid/high god-tier is clearly superior than the low god-tiers like Toneri (sub-rel and small planet) who Naruto can mid-diff even without full power. He is also immortal post-Shinju and requires superior DC or seals to fully take him down. That is even without mentioning his full arsenal like several Limbos (which requires rikudo chakra to perceive/interact against) and IT which has global potency (and yes OBD mainly determines potency of illusion/mind control by how many ppl they can affect, which is why SW characters mostly trump in this area).
> 
> With that said, even with equalized stats all you get is both fighting for eternity as they will keep regen'ing any damage (assuming TSB doesn't nullify Aizen's regen).



1) This is about Narutoverse dojutsu being wanked as something that can't be fulled, not simple KS gg. Though, yes, KS would play a role in Aizen's victory. 

2) Naruto being stronger than Toneri does nothing for Madara here since its a stronger version of Naruto to begin with.

3) Shinigami fight using their spiritual senses, not just their eyes, as Shunsui explained in his fight against Lille. 

4) Madara needed a good amount of time, prep, and a moon to launch IT. It just takes looking at Aizen in battle for him to effect you, if he decides to.

5) Madara almost died from the beating Gai gave him, so his regen has a clear limit. We seen Aizen take damage and get absorbed, but never nearly die with the Hog. The main solutions to beat him is through sealing or absorption. 


6) Sealing techniques are a common thing in Bleach, and Aizen would have that in his bag as well.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

I never watched Bleach, but as I'm banned from the NBD, I have no other place to go to  

Anyway Mugen Tsukuyomi negs the fodder, I could watch Bleach but really what's the point  Mugen Tsukuyomi doesn't suddenly vanish from Madara's arsenal just because I watched Bleach

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Keishin (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> I never watched Bleach, but as I'm banned from the NBD, I have no other place to go to
> 
> Anyway Mugen Tsukuyomi negs the fodder, I could watch Bleach but really what's the point  Mugen Tsukuyomi doesn't suddenly vanish from Madara's arsenal just because I watched Bleach


aizen is 6th dimensional


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

Keishin said:


> aizen is 6th dimensional


He can be any dimension he wants, he's still not going to see or sense Limbo in any way; since it's stated that only those with the Rinnegan or Six Paths sensing mode can affect and see Limbo. Which means that he is completely helpless against Limbo -- and also it is stated in the databook that each of the Limbo (4 in total) are equal in power to Madara himself.

And he's still completely helpless against Mugen Tsukuyomi, it is explicitly stated that only Rinnegan Susanoo can counter it, and that nothing can hide from its light  Which means that there is no cover, shield, barrier, technique, etc. that can counter Mugen Tsukuyomi (except the Rinnegan but he doesn't have it).

You can't even try to argue that Infinite Tsukuyomi is useless because other verses "don't have chakra"; since it's shown that even creatures without chakra (dogs, cats...) were trapped under Infinite Tsukuyomi.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## KBD (Oct 8, 2021)

Genjutsu GG


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> *He can be any dimension he wants, he's still not going to see or sense Limbo in any way; since it's stated that only those with the Rinnegan or Six Paths sensing mode can affect and see Limbo*. Which means that he is completely helpless against Limbo -- and also it is stated in the databook that each of the Limbo (4 in total) are equal in power to Madara himself.
> 
> And he's still completely helpless against Mugen Tsukuyomi, it is explicitly stated that only Rinnegan Susanoo can counter it, and that nothing can hide from its light  Which means that there is no cover, shield, barrier, technique, etc. that can counter Mugen Tsukuyomi (except the Rinnegan but he doesn't have it).
> 
> You can't even try to argue that Infinite Tsukuyomi is useless because other verses "don't have chakra"; since it's shown that even creatures without chakra (dogs, cats...) were trapped under Infinite Tsukuyomi.




They also said only a sharingan can beat another sharingan, and that concept was destroyed. 

Also, your comment is a no limits fallacy. We never seen Madara interact with a higher dimensional being, assuming he could just because of a statement that wouldn't even take that kind of thing into account is foolishness. 

On the other hand, we know Aizen passively kills lower dimensional beings who don't have enough spiritual pressure.


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

LMAO, we really are hitting peak Bleach wank with this Vs Battle Wiki tier garbage like higher dimensional Aizen meaning anything

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 8, 2021)

Dimensions are power level bullshit coded with something even more ill defined than random arbitrary numbers.

Dead section or not, peddle that bile elsewhere. Don’t piss on the graves of those that were doing this long since before you with this kind of horse shit 

Same with anything about “universal” bleach.


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> LMAO, we really are hitting peak Bleach wank with this Vs Battle Wiki tier garbage like higher dimensional Aizen meaning anything



Yes, and limbo only being countered by a Rinn or narutoverse specific jutsu isn't wank at all, right? 

The point is that we know a beings dimensional rank has an effect on how it interacts with others, which they went out the way to prove twice. 

Madara's clones are basically dimensional beings, which is the only reason why this has become a topic.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Yes, and limbo only being countered by a Rinn or narutoverse specific jutsu isn't wank at all, right?
> 
> The point is that we know a beings dimensional rank has an effect on how it interacts with others, which they went out the way to prove twice.
> 
> Madara's clones are basically dimensional beings, which is the only reason why this has become a topic.


Limbo is a perfectly fair argument since it’s whole gimmick is creating clones attacking from another little pocket dimension that can’t be interacted with under most circumstances as an actual power.

Please show me Aizen being this physically intangible, incomprehensible, higher dimensional being.

Except he isn’t. He’s never demonstrated intangibility and is currently strapped to a chair he can’t get out of without assistance and your only going off a figure of speech claim he made.



Also, show me Aizen killing anyone besides normal humans and nameless fodder with his reiastu. If we’re really going to argue Reiatsu, Juubi’s got more power in its pinky than Aizen and most of Bleach put together so Madara is doing the crushing anyway


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Transcendence was basically not even continued by Kubo ffs.

Not that it would ever be relevant to be "dimensional" in Bleach, man was still a soul of some kind, just had insane Reiatsu. In EE scenarios, it is just energy. Aizen cannot run out of Reiatsu, nor Madara of Chakra. All it really means.


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## accountmaker (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> I never watched Bleach, but as I'm banned from the NBD, I have no other place to go to
> 
> Anyway Mugen Tsukuyomi negs the fodder, I could watch Bleach but really what's the point  Mugen Tsukuyomi doesn't suddenly vanish from Madara's arsenal just because I watched Bleach


Pffftahaha even those spastic retards couldn't handle you. Daaamn man


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Limbo is a perfectly fair argument since it’s whole gimmick is creating clones attacking from another little pocket dimension that can’t be interacted with under most circumstances as an actual power.
> 
> Please show me Aizen being this physically intangible, incomprehigher dimensional being.
> 
> ...



1) Show me where I said Aizen had intangibility.

2) We know Bleach can counter dimension type abilities since Ichigo destroyed a pocket dimension just from going bankai. Grimm ripped through space from using an attack, and Aizen is able to interact with the lower dimensions, while lower dimension beings can interact with him if they have enough power.

3) What does Aizen only passively killing fodder have to do with anything? The point is that dimension matter in Bleach, not that he could passively kill Madara or even Sakura for that matter.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Yes, and limbo only being countered by a Rinn or narutoverse specific jutsu isn't wank at all, right?


It is not wank, you're just biased.

Limbo is a SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE, so naturally only a SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE (like Rinnegan or Naruto's Rikudou mode) can counter it.

The Limbo clones of Madara exist in the "Limbo world" which is a Six Paths dimension, therefore only Six Paths powers can interact with it.

That is not wanking, that is a fact.

Then you accuse me of a fallacy when your only "argument" is "w-well who knows, maybe there's something else that can counter Limbo!!!"


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> 1) Show me where I said Aizen had intangibility.
> 
> 2) We know Bleach can counter dimension type abilities since Ichigo destroyed a pocket dimension just from going bankai. Grimm ripped through space from using an attack, and Aizen is able to interact with the lower dimensions, while lower dimension beings can interact with him if they have enough power.
> 
> 3) What does Aizen only passively killing fodder have to do with anything? The point is that dimension matter in Bleach, not that he could passively kill Madara or even Sakura for that matter.





> We never seen Madara interact with a higher dimensional being,



Number 2 is a fair argument. Use actual feats to argue, not made-up nonsense


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> It is not wank, you're just biased.
> 
> Limbo is a SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE, so naturally only a SIX PATHS TECHNIQUE (like Rinnegan or Naruto's Rikudou mode) can counter it.
> 
> ...



I guess Whis can’t counter it then, right?


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> I guess Whis can’t counter it then, right?


No, he can't. Being able to oneshot a fodder doesn't mean you can counter all their hax. Whis can't counter Limbo, but he's so much stronger that Limbo is literally an atom to him. Sad deflection.

Hold onto your L and accept what the manga is telling you:





It is said that "perceiving the phantom is IMPOSSIBLE"; and anyone "connected with the current world" can't see it.

Furthermore, we also know that, even though Sasuke with his Rinnegan was able to see it, he couldn't affect it; only Naruto could affect it with his Rikudou power.

The same Rikudou power Madara had, I wonder what Kishimoto is trying to tell me 

And Sasuke (unlike Naruto) could see it only because he had the Rinnegan, the Limbo being a Rinnegan ability, what could be the point Kishimoto is trying to make here


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> No, he can't. Being able to oneshot a fodder doesn't mean you can counter all their hax. Whis can't counter Limbo, but he's so much stronger that Limbo is literally an atom to him. Sad deflection.
> 
> Hold onto your L and accept what the manga is telling you:
> 
> ...



Except Bleach has proven that they have the ability to interact with other dimensions as I already pointed out  

But hey, that doesn’t matter because Whis and anyone else without the Rinnegan can’t do anything to your lord and savior, lol.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Except Bleach has proven that they have the ability to interact with other dimensions as I already pointed out
> 
> But hey, that doesn’t matter because Whis and anyone else without the Rinnegan can’t do anything to your lord and savior, lol.


Okay I'll take the bait one last time 


It is a canonical fact that only Rinnegan and Rikudou power can counter Limbo; and it is not coincidence. Limbo is created by the Rinnegan eye and exists in a Six Paths-type of dimension.

Any fictional character who doesn't have Rinnegan or Rikudou power; AS PER THE RULES ESTABLISHED BY KISHIMOTO [That only Rinnegan and Rikudou power can counter Limbo] -- is therefore UNABLE to counter Limbo. No matter how strong or how much hax they have.

So Nope, Whis cannot counter Limbo. And it's not as easy as simply teleporting into Limbo or trying to access it, otherwise Kakashi with Kamui would have attempted to do so (like Obito tried to do with Kaguya's dimensions). It is made explicitly clear that no one can interact with this Limbo dimension if they don't have the aforementioned Rinnegan and Six Paths power.

In fact it is stated that "PERCEIVING THE PHANTOM [of Limbo]" is "IMPOSSIBLE".

Now I admit that I haven't watched Bleach so I don't know what these people can do; but knowing the rules Kishimoto established for Madara, I already know no one outside of Narutoverse can counter Limbo 

Normally this isn't a problem for people like Whis who don't even feel Madara's presence by how fodder he is to them, but Aizen isn't Whis or a Dragon Ball character at all


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## Grinningfox (Oct 8, 2021)

Don’t really care as both characters bug me but will KS affect Limbo?


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## MShadows (Oct 8, 2021)

Grinningfox said:


> Don’t really care as both characters bug me but will KS affect Limbo?


KS will affect Madara, who is controlling the Limbo. If Aizen could trick a dude who could see all possible futures then there is no way Madara won’t fall for KS.

But at the end of the day it’s a pointless fight as both characters are immortal.

However, Aizen keeps growing stronger over time thanks to the Hogyoku shenanigans.


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

MShadows said:


> KS will affect Madara, who is controlling the Limbo. If Aizen could trick a dude who could see all possible futures then there is no way Madara won’t fall for KS.
> 
> But at the end of the day it’s a pointless fight as both characters are immortal.
> 
> However, Aizen keeps growing stronger over time thanks to the Hogyoku shenanigans.


Not sure how Immortal Madara is, he almost died to Guy, but does acquiring more eyes do anything for his regen?


Aizen is Multi-Continent atm, so if Guy 8th Gate is not slinging moon level kicks. Madara gonna die before Aizen does.


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## Volt manta (Oct 8, 2021)

>Omnipotent Limbo

This reminds me of that Black Cat thread I made back in... goodness I'm old.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Not sure how Immortal Madara is, he almost died to Guy, but does acquiring more eyes do anything for his regen?
> 
> 
> Aizen is Multi-Continent atm, so if Guy 8th Gate is not slinging moon level kicks. Madara gonna die before Aizen does.


Madara became immortal after absorbing the Divine Tree, which happened after the fight with Guy. When he absorbed the tree he indeed became immortal (hence why Naruto and Sasuke were given SEALS to defeat him):



So the only way to put down Madara is to seal him with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, which no one from the Bleach verse can form as they don't have the Sun and Moon seals...

Reactions: Informative 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Madara became immortal after absorbing the Divine Tree, which happened after the fight with Guy. When he absorbed the tree he indeed became immortal (hence why Naruto and Sasuke were given SEALS to defeat him):
> 
> 
> 
> So the only way to put down Madara is to seal him with the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei, which no one from the Bleach verse can form as *they don't have the Sun and Moon seals...*


I am sure many sealing techniques that *aren't *the Sun and Moon seals should be able to do this too. I thought he was immortal pre, because he regenerated his body. Being stupid

This is like saying Madara cannot seal Aizen because he has no access to Urahara's seal and literally every other seal in existence would fail.

I think they could both manage it to each other is you ask me.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> I am sure many sealing techniques that *aren't *the Sun and Moon seals should be able to do this too. I thought he was immortal pre, because he regenerated his body.
> 
> This is like saying Madara cannot seal Aizen because he has no access to Urahara's seal and literally every other seal in existence would fail.
> 
> I think they could both manage it to be each other is you ask me.


Madara doesn't need to seal Aizen to win, he can simply cast Mugen Tsukuyomi using the moon. Mugen Tsukuyomi is an instant win for Madara as the Super genjutsu traps anyone who doesn't have a Rinnegan Susanoo as cover, and the light of the moon can penetrate anything and no one can hide from it:


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Also deadass did the last 10 tails (Hagaromo?) Jinchuriki not grow old and make the Juubi into the 9 beasts on his deathbed.

Most of the people who have been a 10 tails Jinchuriki are dead aren't they? 

My recollection is vague though.


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Madara doesn't need to seal Aizen to win, he can simply cast Mugen Tsukuyomi using the moon. Mugen Tsukuyomi is an instant win for Madara as the Super genjutsu traps anyone who doesn't have a* Rinnegan Susanoo as cover, and the light of the moon can penetrate anything and no one can hide from it:*


Does this mean Kaguya, Toneri, Naruto, Momoshiki and everyone not called Rinnegan Sasuke and the caster of the Genjutsu autoloses to this Madara?

Because a lot of God Tier's don't have Rinnegan Susanoo.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Does this mean Kaguya, Toneri, Naruto, Momoshiki and everyone not called Rinnegan Sasuke and the caster of the Genjutsu autoloses to this Madara?
> 
> Because a lot of God Tier's don't have Rinnegan Susanoo.


Kaguya, No, because she also cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi, she literally appears over the moon when Madara casts it.

The other people, Yes 

There are a lot of wankers on this forum who think the aliens are immune to Infinite Tsukuyomi but there's no evidence of this. Naruto also would have fallen to the genjutsu if Sasuke didn't protect him with the Rinnegan Susanoo.

So Yes Madara (and Kaguya) can indeed solo anyone without the Rinnegan Susanoo, it is stated that Sasuke blocked the Infinite Tsukuyomi only thanks to his Susanoo created by Rinnegan:


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## MShadows (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Not sure how Immortal Madara is, he almost died to Guy, but does acquiring more eyes do anything for his regen?
> 
> 
> Aizen is Multi-Continent atm, so if Guy 8th Gate is not slinging moon level kicks. Madara gonna die before Aizen does.


It was absorbing the tree that made Madara immortal, not awakening the eyes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Kaguya, No, because she also cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi, she literally appears over the moon when Madara casts it.
> 
> The other people, Yes
> 
> ...


Now the only other relevant things if the cast time/does he need to fly up close to the moon?

Because getting that off is a win, but he has someone up his arse the entire time. Unless it's his first move, which robs the fight of any debate, but then all Madara threads where he can make a single seal before being blitzed by someone way stronger turn into lolstomps.

Not sure how I feel about that. What level of mindfuck resistence is needed to resist IT?


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Now the only other relevant things if the cast time/does he need to fly up close to the moon?
> 
> Because getting that off is a win, but he has someone up his arse the entire time. Unless it's his first move, which robs the fight of any debate, but then all Madara threads where he can make a single seal before being blitzed by someone way stronger turn into lolstomps.
> 
> Not sure how I feel about that. What level of mindfuck resistence is needed to resist IT?


Yes, he takes time to set up Mugen Tsukuyomi, but canonically he can distract his enemies by firing many Chibaku Tensei meteors and using Limbo Clones.

*Which Aizen cannot counter, *it doesn't matter what sort of fanfiction powers this section gives him, he lacks the requirement to see (Rinnegan) or affect (Six Paths sensing mode) Limbo Clones


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Yes, he takes time to set up Mugen Tsukuyomi, but canonically he can distract his enemies by firing many Chibaku Tensei meteors and using Limbo Clones.
> 
> *Which Aizen cannot counter, *it doesn't matter what sort of fanfiction powers this section gives him, he lacks the requirement to see (Rinnegan) or affect (Six Paths sensing mode) Limbo Clones


I would not say he cannot "counter" them persay. He likely cannot harm them, but when he notices he keeps getting beaten all over the shop by invisible hands, he might just Shunpo all over to avoid them. Sub rel atm.

Though for me it circles back to KS working on Madara or not. If Madara directs the Limbo and they make no independant actions/see for themselves, then they will be hitting nothing but thin air.

Why does it always have to be Dojutsu users


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Though for me it circles back to KS working on Madara or not. If Madara directs the Limbo and they make no independant actions/see for themselves, then they will be hitting nothing but thin air.


It is stated that only physical attacks and "Senjutsu" attacks can affect the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki:




I know that Aizen's technique more or less works by controlling the victim's senses without them even realizing it, which is basically just like Genjutsu.

And we know that Madara has Genjutsu resistance as per Minato's dialogue; only Senjutsu and physical attacks (Taijustu) can affect him. Genjutsu, illusions in general, are not stated to work on Madara.

So trying to take control of Madara's senses is not going to work, he negs it simply by being the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki 


By saying that only "physical" attacks work on Madara, the writer gave him protection from any kind of illusion hax.


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> It is stated that only physical attacks and "Senjutsu" attacks can affect the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Would Energy Equivelence not make that a non factor?

Otherwise the universe destroying beams of DBZ characters that is not made of Senjutsu would do fuck all. This would also mean the likes of Tatsumaki in OP and high level TK people cannot telekinetically rip Madara apart.

I do not agree. Any attack with the potency to overwhelm Madara's durability will damage him. Senjutsu or not.


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## Suigetsu (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> No, he can't. Being able to oneshot a fodder doesn't mean you can counter all their hax. Whis can't counter Limbo, but he's so much stronger that Limbo is literally an atom to him. Sad deflection.
> 
> Hold onto your L and accept what the manga is telling you:
> 
> ...


how about you actually go and read the manga before stirring shit up because you are just trolling, didnt you admit that once? Embarassing...


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Would Energy Equivelence not make that a non factor?
> 
> Otherwise the universe destroying beams of DBZ characters that is not made of Senjutsu would do fuck all. This would also mean the likes of Tatsumaki in OP and high level TK people cannot telekinetically rip Madara apart.
> 
> I do not agree. Any attack with the potency to overwhelm Madara's durability will damage him. Senjutsu or not.


Nope, you were suggesting that Madara would get caught under Aizen's illusion, this is not happening ever. It is stated directly that Madara is immune to illusion attacks.

You can't even prove that would work on Itachi, let alone Madara 

Oh and btw I'm not even taking Izanagi into account, which Madara can use by reverting his Rinnegan into Sharingan. The Izanagi allows him to completely rewrite reality and pretty much do whatever he wants

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Nope, you were suggesting that Madara would get caught under Aizen's illusion, this is not happening ever. It is stated directly that Madara is immune to illusion attacks.
> 
> You can't even prove that would work on Itachi, let alone Madara


Was talking about the Senjutsu, but continue to debate that wall over there if you want.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Was talking about the Senjutsu, but continue to debate that wall over there if you want.


Add that to the list of Madara's counters which no character in Bleach will ever get their hands on. 

Right next to the Rinnegan and Six Paths sensing mode.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Add that to the list of Madara's counters which no character in Bleach will ever get their hands on.
> 
> Right next to the Rinnegan and Six Paths sensing mode.


No need, when Vollstandig Lille Barro can probably solo the entire verse. I think literally only Kakashi has a chance because of Kamui.


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## Fused (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> No need, when Vollstandig Lille Barro can probably solo the entire verse. I think literally only Kakashi has a chance because of Kamui.


Why does this forum wank DMS Kakashi so much


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Anyway to the topic, I think specifc HST thread should be banned.

This being one of them, alongside anything with Almighty SK Yhwach. Aizen vs one-eyed Madara pre Shinju tree is a better fight.


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

Way I see it, both can be killed from being destroyed beyond what their shown to regenerate. It’d be pure wank to say either Aizen or Madara can come back from being reduced to atoms.

Madara has the firepower to do that much to Aizen with ease, Aizen not so much. Simple


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 8, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Way I see it, both can be killed from being destroyed beyond what their shown to regenerate. It’d be pure wank to say either Aizen or Madara can come back from being reduced to atoms.
> 
> Madara has the firepower to do that much to Aizen with ease, Aizen not so much. Simple



Aizen did get totally absorbed by Yhwach, when Yhwach died Aizen was back to being fine, that’s not the case for the original SK for example. I’m not sure what regen feat coming back from nothing/being absorbed is?


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Aizen did get totally absorbed by Yhwach, when Yhwach died Aizen was back to being fine, that’s not the case for the original SK for example. I’m not sure what regen feat coming back from nothing/being absorbed is?


Ichigo got partially absorbed by the same black stuff before Yhwach got shot. Didn’t do anything to him, let alone reduce him to nothing. We know nothing beyond Aizen just getting swept up by it


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Fused said:


> Okay I'll take the bait one last time
> 
> 
> *It is a canonical fact that only Rinnegan and Rikudou power can counter Limbo; and it is not coincidence. Limbo is created by the Rinnegan eye and exists in a Six Paths-type of dimension.*
> ...



Your limbo claim is based solely on Narutoverse resources. Saying no counter exist outside of that is a no limits fallacy. In Naruto, Kaguya hoping through dimensions is considered a big deal, in Bleach, it’s Monday.

Saying that a verse that can destroy and interact with pocket dimensions and beings can’t do anything against Madara’s limbo clones is a baseless stance since he NEVER had to deal with someone who could do that other than Sasuke.

If anything, the most you can say is that the Rin gives you the ability to interact with different dimensions.


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## BossKitten (Oct 8, 2021)

Rev97 said:


> Ichigo got partially absorbed by the same black stuff before Yhwach got shot. Didn’t do anything to him, let alone reduce him to nothing. We know nothing beyond Aizen just getting swept up by it



Aizen vanished. Ichigo was in the process of being absorbed.


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## Rev97 (Oct 8, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Aizen vanished. Ichigo was in the process of being absorbed.


Aizen got swallowed up. See what I did?


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## Alita (Oct 8, 2021)

I feel like people are going to regret making HST threads a thing again as this thread already shows us. But whatever I guess...

As for the topic I don't personally think juudara should be getting scaled to the small planet stuff but his his casual multi CT was put at moon level and he is also at minimum relativistic speed wise as well. IT is also obviously >>>>>> KS so he still stomps here regardless.


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> In Naruto, Kaguya hoping through dimensions is considered a big deal,


Context FanVerse, Context matters 

Hopping through dimensions is not considered a big deal, no one is amazed at the Kamui Bros using Kamui.

Hopping through dimensions is a big deal for Kaguya because her dimensions form an "incredibly vast time-space":





And we see that Kaguya's dimensions are MASSIVE. The desert dimension has a sun:





The Ice dimension has two moons and also has a sun (they go there when it's day):





So learn context. Dimension hopping is not special, hence why no one cares about Kamui dimension hopping, but Kaguya's is special because her dimensions are simply incredible and vast 






BossKitten said:


> he NEVER had to deal with someone who could do that other than Sasuke.


Nope. Madara also fought against Obito and Kakashi, both had interdimensional travelling capabilities via Kamui. Obito used Kamui to sync in and travel in Kaguya's dimensions, yet he never tried to do this with Limbo. Enough said.

You're wrong when you say the only one with dimensional powers that Madara fought was Sasuke. And even Sasuke could not counter Limbo in the end and needed Naruto's help.


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## Keishin (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> He can be any dimension he wants, he's still not going to see or sense Limbo in any way; since it's stated that only those with the Rinnegan or Six Paths sensing mode can affect and see Limbo. Which means that he is completely helpless against Limbo -- and also it is stated in the databook that each of the Limbo (4 in total) are equal in power to Madara himself.
> 
> And he's still completely helpless against Mugen Tsukuyomi, it is explicitly stated that only Rinnegan Susanoo can counter it, and that nothing can hide from its light  Which means that there is no cover, shield, barrier, technique, etc. that can counter Mugen Tsukuyomi (except the Rinnegan but he doesn't have it).
> 
> You can't even try to argue that Infinite Tsukuyomi is useless because other verses "don't have chakra"; since it's shown that even creatures without chakra (dogs, cats...) were trapped under Infinite Tsukuyomi.


thats completely baseless not only is aizen higher dimensional and thus madara cant interact w/ him, he can sense things beyond dimensions. theres 0 chance he wouldnt sense limbo since limbo is the easiest thing for any shinigami to sense to begin w/ as limbo are just the soul of the dead that chills in the limbo before going to afterlife
wrong,IT cant work on aizen just like so ask tobirama and hashirama and co.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 9, 2021)

Just being associated with these “lol dimensional” arguments is causing me a headache.

Transcendence is irrelevant in Bleach itself at this point ffs


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

Keishin said:


> as limbo are just the soul of the dead that chills in the limbo before going to afterlife


Lmfao is this guy serious? In Naruto world "Limbo" is a shadowy version of Earth where Madara's shadows are, it has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is explicitly stated that only someone with Six Paths sensing mode can affect the Limbo dimension, hence why not even Sasuke could do anything to Madara's shadows (as he didn't have Naruto's Six Paths sensing mode).


Keishin said:


> wrong,IT cant work on aizen just like so ask tobirama and hashirama and co.



If that's your argument then why don't we ask Tobirama and Hashirama how Madara no-diffed them with simple black chakra rods, and that was before he even absorbed the Ten Tails btw


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## Impulse (Oct 9, 2021)

Could go either way but the comments here are quite interesting I just want to hear more opinions  



Fused said:


> I never watched Bleach, but as I'm banned from the NBD, I have no other place to go to
> 
> Anyway Mugen Tsukuyomi negs the fodder, I could watch Bleach but really what's the point  Mugen Tsukuyomi doesn't suddenly vanish from Madara's arsenal just because I watched Bleach


You banned on NBD?

For how long?


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

Impulse said:


> Could go either way but the comments here are quite interesting I just want to hear more opinions
> 
> 
> You banned on NBD?
> ...


The biased, tyrannical, dictatorial Anti-Madara mods banned me for 1 month, probably for making fun of their idol and childhood hero DMS Kakashi

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Keishin (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> Lmfao is this guy serious? In Naruto world "Limbo" is a shadowy version of Earth where Madara's shadows are, it has nothing to do with the afterlife. It is explicitly stated that only someone with Six Paths sensing mode can affect the Limbo dimension, hence why not even Sasuke could do anything to Madara's shadows (as he didn't have Naruto's Six Paths sensing mode).
> 
> 
> If that's your argument then why don't we ask Tobirama and Hashirama how Madara no-diffed them with simple black chakra rods, and that was before he even absorbed the Ten Tails btw


just...no
tobiramus is fodder btw, in *any* fight on this forum


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## BossKitten (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> Context FanVerse, Context matters
> 
> Hopping through dimensions is not considered a big deal, no one is amazed at the Kamui Bros using Kamui.
> 
> ...



Talks about context, then makes a reply completely out of context  

Kaguya hoping through dimensions was a big deal, to the fandom. If you want to talk about inverse, it's still a big deal, just like the Kamui brothers dimensional abilities were since it made Tobi and Kakashi top tier. Having 3 top tiers using that kind of jutsu isn't the same as having a mid-ranked character having the ability due to it being more common. 

The size of the dimensions that Kaguya traveled to has nothing to do with anything. 


*Context, remember?* 

I mentioned Bleach's ability to destroy pocket dimensions, rip through time and space, and interact with beings on different dimensions + see them for that matter, even if they can't sense them. 

You're bringing up Kamui that has nothing to do with what I said, nor has the type of countering ability as those things listed above. 


Lastly, you're crazy if you don't think Kamui is an amazing jutsu in the Narutoverse. They had to take away Kakashi's DMS because it was too OP, lol.


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> Kaguya hoping through dimensions was a big deal, to the fandom.


Nope.


BossKitten said:


> just like the Kamui brothers dimensional abilities were since it made Tobi and Kakashi top tier. Having 3 top tiers using that kind of jutsu isn't the same as having a mid-ranked character having the ability due to it being more common.


No it is a garbage ability that was completely countered by the likes of Konan or Cucknato.


BossKitten said:


> he size of the dimensions that Kaguya traveled to has nothing to do with anything.


It is the only reason why her dimensions would be considered impressive, and the only reason why it was so exhausting for her to use the dimension hopping ability...


BossKitten said:


> I mentioned Bleach's ability to destroy pocket dimensions, rip through time and space, and interact with beings on different dimensions


Like Naruto also doesn't have those abilities 

The more you talk about Bleach, the more it sounds totally unimpressive and lame 


BossKitten said:


> You're bringing up Kamui that has nothing to do with what I said, nor has the type of countering ability as those things listed above.


You said that the only person with dimensional powers that Madara fought was Sasuke; that is clearly false since he also fought both Kamui Bros.

You're trying to discredit Madara even though it is obvious that Madara has plenty of ways to deal with people who can affect dimensions; and Obito, who was able to access Kaguya's dimensions with his Kamui, found it futile to try and interact with the Limbo dimension.


BossKitten said:


> They had to take away Kakashi's DMS because it was too OP, lol.


LOL such silly logic, and following that logic then Madara is stronger than everyone else because Kishimoto didn't know how to get rid of him, so he retconned Black Zetsu's origin and made him backstab Madara 


You keep trying to imply that Madara loses but can't even explain why, you try to point out flaws in Madara even though they are not flaws. Like when you tried to imply Madara isn't equipped to deal with dimensional hax, when he was able to fight both Kamui Bros and force them to flee for their lives, and was also able to instantly figure out how Sasuke's dimensional power worked


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## BossKitten (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> -snip-



The fact that you're pretending Kamui is a "garbage ability" and assuming Naruto can now destroy pocket dimensions with no proof shows you're just pathetically bias and dishonest.


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> The fact that you're pretending Kamui is a "garbage ability" and assuming Naruto can now destroy pocket dimensions with no proof shows you're just pathetically bias and dishonest.


Literally read the Naruto manga, I don't know what else to tell you  





And Kamui is garbage in the sense that people online (like you), wankers essentially, greatly overestimate it. Kamui is not so almighty, in fact Konan one of the least impressive Akatsuki was able to kill Obito despite his "oh so strong" Kamui.


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## BossKitten (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> Literally read the Naruto manga, I don't know what else to tell you
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You do realize that Kaguya is god-tier in the Narutoverse, right? Because you're still completely missing the point and context. 


Konan having prep and a trap in place, specifically for Tobi doesn't make Kamui less impressive, that's foolishness. Kakashi's Susanoo was stated to be more impressive than Sasuke's....by Naruto, but okay, kamui is trash


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## Fused (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> You do realize that Kaguya is god-tier in the Narutoverse,


Already addressed. It is directly stated by Hagoromo [who fought Kaguya for months] that One-Eyed Madara is already on his way to take Kaguya's power:




Thus as directly stated by Hagoromo, Prime Madara is comparable to Kaguya; since with just one eye he was already getting close to Hagoromo and Kaguya. And since you didn't read the Naruto manga, I'll educate you on what that attack is. It is a massive Truth Seeker Orb that Kaguya created from absorbing the chakra of everyone trapped inside the Infinite Tsukuyomi. Now I need you to pay attention here; like Kaguya, Madara can also cast the Infinite Tsukuyomi and he actually did it canonically, which means that Madara can also drain everyone of chakra and create his own Truth Seeker Orb.

So in other words Madara has dimension-busting capabilities, you just need to accept this  


BossKitten said:


> Kakashi's Susanoo was stated to be more impressive than Sasuke's


No he said it was "cooler", it doesn't mean anything, such a silly argument, it astonishes me that here it is taken seriously 


Naruto being a stupid kid who thinks Kakashi's susanoo is "COOLER" (not "STRONGER") than Sasuke's doesn't mean anything  Looks like there's DMS Kakashi wankers on this section too, the Masters Mafia truly is everywhere 


And throughout all of this none of the Bleach fanboys have yet said how Madara loses.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 9, 2021)

I don't think Aizen can see the limbos since Bleach characters can't see Orihime with that wristband either.


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## BossKitten (Oct 9, 2021)

Fused said:


> Already addressed. It is directly stated by Hagoromo [who fought Kaguya for months] that One-Eyed Madara is already on his way to take Kaguya's power:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lol, I see you're still not getting the point. You're still using god-tier  characters, which supports my point, not yours. 

DMS Kakashi is one of the strongest in the Narutoverse regardless of if you like it or not, lol. 



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I don't think Aizen can see the limbos since Bleach characters can't see Orihime with that wristband either.



What wristband?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> What wristband?



The one she used to say goodbye to Ichigo.


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## BossKitten (Oct 9, 2021)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The one she used to say goodbye to Ichigo.



You mean the one that was specifically designed to hide her presence  from people who are in the Bleachverse with all of their skills and abilities in mind?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 9, 2021)

BossKitten said:


> You mean the one that was specifically designed to hide her presence from people who are in the Bleachverse with all of their skills and abilities in mind?



Yeah, that's the closest to limbo.


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## Voyeur (Oct 9, 2021)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## SSMG (Oct 10, 2021)

Ugh fused first post itt states he hasnt read or watched bleach.... Yet still yall will argue with him for 2 pages. All of which is basically NLF's  and his non understanding of how the energy equalization rule works.... 

Ugh.


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## Fused (Oct 10, 2021)

SSMG said:


> Ugh fused first post itt states he hasnt read or watched bleach.... Yet still yall will argue with him for 2 pages. All of which is basically NLF's  and his non understanding of how the energy equalization rule works....
> 
> Ugh.


You don't need to waste time reading Bleach when you know what can and cannot counter Madara.

I can read Bleach but Aizen won't magically get counters to Limbo just because I read Bleach.

No amount of fanfic wanking is ever changing the fact that Limbo is not countered by anyone in Bleach 


People here don't even know how Aizen counters Limbo. "b-but he is dimensional!!! he affects dimensions!!!" Not an argument because Sasuke and Kamui Bros were also helpless against Limbo.

So much so that Madara never used Limbo against Obito NOT because Obito can affect distant dimensions with his Kamui (as he did with Kaguya's dimensions), but because *he had the Rinnegan. *What does this tell you about what can and cannot counter Limbo?


And thus Limbo indeed speed-blitzes the fodder.

And then you wankers tried to act like Aizen's mental hax is somehow soooo strong, but I had a look at it, and it's just basic Genjutsu  You're insane if you think that's ever working on Madara. "B-but it worked on someone who can see the future!!!" Mugen Tsukuyomi worked on the frogs who could see 1000 years into the future and told Hagoromo about Naruto, so Nope it's not impressive


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## Bad Wolf (Oct 10, 2021)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Yeah, that's the closest to limbo.


closest thing is just a normal soul that's invisible to people and shinigami can just see them, that wristband seems to be and evolution of Aizen/Urahara cape that hidden the user's reiatsu + give invisibility that work on people that can regularly *Link Removed*

Reactions: Like 1


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## BossKitten (Oct 10, 2021)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Yeah, that's the closest to limbo.



Not really. Limbo is just a clone in another dimension that can interact with this dimension. It's broken in the Narutoverse because dimension interaction in general isn't common. The list basically comes down to Kaguya, Madara, Sasuke, Kakashi, and Tobi.  Out of those 5, two of them are connected to a specific dimension (no different than Shunsui's shadow for example), and Kaguya was mainly moving through dimensions.

The difference between all of that and Bleach is that almost any seated officer can move between dimensions, it isn't a top tier skill. Any shinigami worth their salt fight using spiritual senses as opposed to using their eyes, making them all sensors in general, as opposed to it being anything crazy. Ripping through time and space is something you can do once you hit the level of HM Grimm, which isn't a vey high bar.

With all of that being said, for Limbo to be immune in the bleachverse it would have to show that it can't be touched by attacks that can rip through time and space, dimensions, etc. Also, you'd have to prove that people who can see and interact with other dimensions, see souls, etc; can't see or feel limbo clones.

When we talk about Orihime's bracelet, or Aizen's cloak, we are talking about tech that takes all the bleachverse abilities into account, and counters them. Narutoverse doesn't have that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SSMG (Oct 10, 2021)

Yeah due to the energy equalization rule, the limbo clones are being seen by anyone in bleach who can see invisible beings.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 11, 2021)

SSMG said:


> Yeah due to the energy equalization rule, the limbo clones are being seen by anyone in bleach who can see invisible beings.



The fuck? There invisibility works completely differently from each other. Equivalence doesn't fix shit here.

Reactions: Like 1


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## SSMG (Oct 11, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> The fuck? There invisibility works completely differently from each other. Equivalence doesn't fix shit here.




Then no one  from Naruto can see pretty much any Bleach character either in any VS matches....


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## Gabriel Alves (Oct 11, 2021)

naruto characters can see spirits.


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## SSMG (Oct 11, 2021)

Both of those are jutsu tho...


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## accountmaker (Oct 12, 2021)

SSMG said:


> Both of those are jutsu tho...


Limbo works differently than the default shinigami invisibility. Characters in Naruto can and have interacted with real spirits including pure world residents. Limbo is a specific technique, the shinigami invisibility is a result of not having enough spiritual energy to perceive spirits. 

All this is irrelevant because we equalize that shit. Chakra=reitsu so Naruto characters can perceive Bleach characters. If you're going to argue semantics, chakra is composed of physical *and spiritual* energy. So there you go.


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## Keishin (Oct 12, 2021)

Nah naruto chars are unable to see real spirits ie. Obito appearing to give kakashi dms.


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## SSMG (Oct 12, 2021)

Yeah as far as I recall the only time actual spirits in Naruto where ever able to be seen was when Edo tense was being undone, or part of the person's soul was implanted into another's consciousness.(naruto able to talk with his mom n dad inside himself) 

Not that this really matters to the main topic at hand.... I was just nitpicking a minor point anyway so no need to really drag this out. Doesn't really change  the outcome of this VS match.


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## Bad Wolf (Oct 12, 2021)

Gabriel Alves said:


> naruto characters can see spirits.


Which aren't really invisible, no one had any problem seeing that.
Not every spirit is invisible in fiction.
But still, equalization rule here doesn't help Aizen against Limbo, having chakra doesn't help you.

On the other end, we can argue of the fact that they can see normally invisible characters just having reiatsu or sense his energy (Aizen in particular at this level of power could probably sense other being like him that normally can't be perceived)


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## Jag77 (Oct 13, 2021)

Aizen vs Madara thread with 186 replies......


Would be shocked if it was otherwise


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## Akira1993 (Oct 14, 2021)

Jag77 said:


> Aizen vs Madara thread with 186 replies......
> 
> 
> Would be shocked if it was otherwise


They got weaker, back then it used to be at least 14 pages for Aizen vs Madara.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The World (Oct 14, 2021)

Madara is effectively immortal with the tree absorbed. There is no firepower Aizen can do to destroy him. Only way he could win is if he knew the mechanics of the Shinju and his KS works on Madara for him to force Mads to remove the tree or get Kaguya to resurface which only gives him a harder target.


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## Fused (Oct 14, 2021)

The World said:


> or get Kaguya to resurface which only gives him a harder target.


He'd get an All-Killing Ash bone straight to the mouth

Reactions: Like 1


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## B Rabbit (Oct 14, 2021)

What are the stats for these characters.

The stats the OBD has for them accepted at anyways.


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 14, 2021)

Aizen is Multi-continent and Sub Rel.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## B Rabbit (Oct 14, 2021)

WhiskeyThan said:


> Aizen is Multi-continent and Sub Rel.


I don't know what Madara is on.


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## B Rabbit (Oct 14, 2021)

Bleach and OP got alot of upgrades this year. I think most people are unaware despite all having access to them like everyone else. Plus the scaling is less complicated.

There are so many versions of Madara that even I do not know how strong this version is. Partially because I do not remember this version.


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## LazyWaka (Oct 14, 2021)

This version of madara is around moon lvl (arguably small planet lvl depending on scaling from the last) and sub reli.


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## B Rabbit (Oct 14, 2021)

This version of Madara should win this then. I don't remember any real hax AiEn has that would overcome the DC gap.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WhiskeyThan (Oct 14, 2021)

The only hax is KS, which can allow him to avoid the attacks because your DC means fuck all when you hit thin air.

Which circles us back to KS vs Sharingan.

Both have sealing Jutsu/Kidou


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## ZenithXAbyss (Oct 14, 2021)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Ks gg


ks gg


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## SSMG (Oct 14, 2021)

K's is just standard mind control right? It more or less distorts the victims senses for them to be put in an illusion.... 


That is basically equal to the basic sharrigan genjutsu....


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## BossKitten (Oct 14, 2021)

SSMG said:


> K's is just standard mind control right? It more or less distorts the victims senses for them to be put in an illusion....
> 
> 
> That is basically equal to the basic sharrigan genjutsu....



No. 

Itachi's MS genjutsu was praised due to it's effectiveness against your senses, so it isn't anything close to a basic sharingan genjutsu. Even then, Itachi's genjutsu worked for seconds in the real world. 

KS effects all of your senses + what you are able to spiritually perceive, and Aizen can distort your sense of time as well. KS has also proven that it can last over several years, effect multitudes of people at the same time (potency), effect people who have more power than the user, and works on Precog that can see thousands or more potential outcomes. 

The only counter we know so far is to touch the hilt. It's never been countered due to over-powering it with energy, through pain, through mental fortitude, or any kind of buddy system where you can get snapped out of it. There also isn't any known time limit, limit of people that KS can effect at once, or ways to sense you're under KS, from what we currently know.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Neutral 1


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## Akira1993 (Oct 14, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> This version of madara is around moon lvl (arguably small planet lvl depending on scaling from the last) and sub reli.


And EOS Aizen is multi continental+ but he has the edge in speed, he is Relativistic+.

I guess it comes down to whether KS will affect Madara or not.

I think it will.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 14, 2021)

My vote goes to Aizen because of KS and being faster.


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## Voyeur (Oct 14, 2021)

LazyWaka said:


> This version of madara is around moon lvl (arguably small planet lvl depending on scaling from the last) and sub reli.


So Madara nukes?


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## Akira1993 (Oct 15, 2021)

Voyeur said:


> So Madara nukes?


He will nuke himself, too slow and can't escape KS.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Oct 15, 2021)

They have basically the same powers and stats.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 15, 2021)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> They have basically the same powers and stats.


Naw, due to recent Bleach upgrades, Aizen is faster now but Madara has still the advantage in DC and Dura.

It comes down to whether KS will work or not on Madara to be honest.


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## Steven (Oct 15, 2021)

War Arc Sasuke didnt scale to Toneri and he was physical strong enough to cut post Shinjuu Madara into half

So yeah,Aizen can hurt him


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## Akira1993 (Oct 15, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> War Arc Sasuke didnt scale to Toneri and he was physical strong enough to cut post Shinjuu Madara into half
> 
> So yeah,Aizen can hurt him


What are you talking about? Sasuke scale to Toneri lol, same for Madara.


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## Fused (Oct 15, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> War Arc Sasuke didnt scale to Toneri and he was physical strong enough to cut post Shinjuu Madara into half
> 
> So yeah,Aizen can hurt him


Toneri was fodderstomped by a simple punch from Base Naruto after he lost the seal Hagoromo gave him  

Sasuke scales above Toneri


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## Steven (Oct 15, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> What are you talking about? Sasuke scale to Toneri lol, same for Madara.


War-Arc Sasuke is no match for Toneri

Maddy is iffy because his feats kinda suxs


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## JayDox (Oct 15, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Yhwachs regen is not even good.
> 
> Just destroy his whole Body and he is gone.He never showed regen like The Miracle


He should have it though.


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## Akira1993 (Oct 15, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> War-Arc Sasuke is no match for Toneri
> 
> Maddy is iffy because his feats kinda suxs


What do you mean War arc? Pre Hagoromo power up or Post Hagoromo power up?

I agree with the former but lol he is above Toneri on the later.


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## Steven (Oct 16, 2021)

Akira1993 said:


> he is above Toneri on the later.


Not without KS.Teen Sasuke was physical NEVER on par with Naruto.Never.Unless your so hard on copium that you believes Teen Sasuke can facetank Toneri´s Golden Weel

Also,what makes Aizen relativistic again?


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## B Rabbit (Oct 16, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Not without KS.Teen Sasuke was physical NEVER on par with Naruto.Never.Unless your so hard on copium that you believes Teen Sasuke can facetank Toneri´s Golden Weel
> 
> Also,what makes Aizen relativistic again?


Its in the calc.


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## kayz (Oct 16, 2021)

SSMG said:


> Yeah due to the energy equalization rule, the limbo clones are being seen by anyone in bleach who can see invisible beings.


Sharingan can see through invisibility jutsus
But can't see Limbo


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## kayz (Oct 16, 2021)

Why do people think Yhwach's omni-future sight is a standard for illusion/mind-fuckery negation when both abilities do not correlate in any way?


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## shieldbounce (Oct 16, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> Also,what makes Aizen relativistic again?


Hold on. Let me check CT's calculation thread...

Here you go. 

Yhwach's telekinetic speed, which could apply to his attack speed as well. Aizen should scale to this speed.


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## Steven (Oct 17, 2021)

shieldbounce said:


> Hold on. Let me check CT's calculation thread...
> 
> Here you go.
> 
> Yhwach's telekinetic speed, which could apply to his attack speed as well. Aizen should scale to this speed.


0.019C is just Mach 16000.Thats sub-rela


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## ACE NITRO (Oct 17, 2021)

IT gg...lol on ks affecting Madara in anyway

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## shieldbounce (Oct 17, 2021)

Ziggy said:


> 0.019C is just Mach 16000.Thats sub-rela


Yea that's sub-relativistic?
Let me see if there is a different feat out there that's higher in speed


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