# Sieg/Jeanne(Fate Apocrypha) vs Shirou/Saber(Fate/Stay/Night)



## TYPE-Rey (Jan 11, 2018)

Something something..... they start fighting.

Scenario1:
Sieg can only use Galvanism ( and Fran's skills of course )
Saber gets her stats as Shirou's servant.
La Pucelle is banned.
No Avalon for Shirou or Saber

Scenario 2:
Sieg gets to transform into Siegfried once for 5 minutes
Saber gets her optimal stats and Avalon
La Pucelle can be used.

General rules:
Mentality: IC but with the desire to win
Distance: 20 meters
Knowledge: None for both parties
Arena: Hanging Gardens of Babylon

So, who wins ?


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## Alex Payne (Jan 11, 2018)

What version of Shirou? I suppose Jeanne's Command Spells are banned.


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## Montanz (Jan 11, 2018)

Hopefully they all die.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 11, 2018)

Alex Payne said:


> What version of Shirou? I suppose Jeanne's Command Spells are banned.


Rulers only get those in Holy Grail Wars...There isn't a Grail involved here so yeah she doesn't.
Shirou gets all his feats and shit from F/S/N


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 11, 2018)

Montanz said:


> Hopefully they all die.


Hopefully stop shitposting.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 11, 2018)

You mean F/SN as the first route? He doesn't get anything decent from that iirc. I guess Saber with proper stats+Avalon can beat Jeanne due to being a better combatant outside NPs and with NPs cancelling each other out. F/SN Shirou wouldn't be able to handle Sieg though. UBW/HF Shirou could. But Siegfried is likely too much. Not sure if Saber could take on Jeanne+5 min Seigfried even with Avalon abuse. My memory of F/SN is hazy though so I might be missing something.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 11, 2018)

Alex Payne said:


> You mean F/SN as the first route?


F/S/N is the game/visual novel. Fate is the first route. When i say Shirou gets all his shit from F/S/N it means he gets access to all his feats from all the routes.


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 11, 2018)

Blasted Tree can probably instakill Shirou Saber since it was enough to critically injure Mordred who needed command seals to live through it and it also royally fucked up Amakusa who was hooked up to the Greater Grail in Apocrypha

I'm fairly confident Jannu can kick Shirou's ass in a straight up fight unless it's HF/Archer Arm Shirou or Shirou manages to scum out a UBW deployment.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 11, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Blasted Tree can probably instakill Shirou Saber


How does that shit work anyway ? It's only B rank .... but if you get hit in the epicenter of the NP ..it's power increases ?
When it was used against Mordred, it was also amped by Caules IIRC.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 11, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Blasted Tree can probably instakill Shirou Saber since it was enough to critically injure Mordred who needed command seals to live through it and it also royally fucked up Amakusa who was hooked up to the Greater Grail in Apocrypha



Can’t be instant kill

The backlash of Excalibur + Ea brought her to that point, but she was still intact and able to at least crawl

She might be wounded like Mordred, but she should be good to fight 

Feel like Mordred shouldn’t have needed a command seal to survival be either



> I'm fairly confident Jannu can kick Shirou's ass in a straight up fight unless it's HF/Archer Arm Shirou or Shirou manages to scum out a UBW deployment.



Wouldn’t discount either Fate or UBW Shirou in just plain melee given her NP in most scenario here are pure defense

Not seeing Fate Shirou win, but he has the stats to contend with Caliburn


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## Crimson King (Jan 11, 2018)

Wasnt Blasted Tree boosted by a command seal as well?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 11, 2018)

Both

it would have instantly killed mordred if Kairi hadn't blown 2 seals on her to save her

1 to reinforce her and another to port her out of the blast range

Caulles blew his own CS on the order of "Make sure it hits no matter what"


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 11, 2018)

1-Saber beats Sieg and then kills Jeanne, who maybe killed Shirou before that.

2-Saber kills Sieg and Jeanne, but faster and Shiro survives.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> 1-Saber beats Sieg and then kills Jeanne, who maybe killed Shirou before that.
> 
> 2-Saber kills Sieg and Jeanne, but faster and Shiro survives.


How is she killing Seig in S2? AoF and Balmung fuck most of her options and boosted Balmung will most likely plow through Excaliblast. Not to mention he can spam it forever and she cant spam Excalibur.

La Pucelle also guarentees a kill if Jeanne uses it on Shirou. Not that she needs to since shes comparable to top servents somewhat and has ridiculously strong defenses that Shirou cant break without fucking himself in the process.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> t would have instantly killed mordred if Kairi hadn't blown 2 seals on her to save her
> 
> 1 to reinforce her and another to port her out of the blast range


Didn't Kairi just use one CS on mordred when she fought Fran and one when she fought Siegfried? I don't think he used two against Fran...


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## Montanz (Jan 12, 2018)

How would Balmung defeat Excalibur?


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## The World (Jan 12, 2018)

by being superior german engineering

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

Montanz said:


> How would Balmung defeat Excalibur?


It wouldn't beat an optimal Saber's Excaliblast in terms of firepower but due to Sieg's bullshit power, it enables him to fire it non-stop like a damn machine gun or some shit.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> How is she killing Seig in S2? AoF and Balmung fuck most of her options and boosted Balmung will most likely plow through Excaliblast. Not to mention he can spam it forever and she cant spam Excalibur



Optimal stats and Avalon, Excalibur is a rank A++ divine construct so it pierces AoF no problem.




OneSimpleAnime said:


> La Pucelle also guarentees a kill if Jeanne uses it on Shirou. Not that she needs to since shes comparable to top servents somewhat and has ridiculously strong defenses that Shirou cant break without fucking himself in the process



She's IC so it wont be used unless she has no other choice.

Shiro can hold his own whit UBW or Archer's arm.


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## Katou (Jan 12, 2018)

I'll just lurk for answers ... 

I don't know shit


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

There is no  boosted Balmung  here.  Sieg  can  only transform once meaning he has no other comand seals to use up to boost Balmung and also Jeanne doesnt get comand seals. Rapid firing it is still something that should be taken into account


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> There is no  boosted Balmung  here.  Sieg  can  only transform once meaning he has no other comand seals to use up to boost Balmung and also Jeanne doesnt get comand seals. Rapid firing it is still something that should be taken into account


It only said he can transform once, not that he didnt have any mire seals.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Optimal stats and Avalon, Excalibur is a rank A++ divine construct so it pierces AoF no problem.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Spamming Balmung would put Saber on the defensive considering what it did to Karna. Unless she decides to sit in Avalon till time runs out (she wont IC) Balmung spam isnt going to give her time to use Excalibur.

UBW has a long ass chant and Archers arm destroys his mind.


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## Katou (Jan 12, 2018)

I know she usually quotes a line for 20 seconds before excalibur... that doesn't count  
she can fire it immediately in my opinion


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## shade0180 (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> UBW has a long ass chant



like that matters when he can pull it off every single damn time in a battle. Fuck he pulled it off in front of gilgamesh so why would it matter now.

 that's like using the charge time as an excuse where you guys would claim that the author gave it a 5 min charge time so it can't be use for battle, when the shit is getting spammed and thrown around the battlefield in its own series.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> like that matters when he can pull it off every single damn time in a battle. Fuck he pulled it off in front of gilgamesh so why would it matter now.
> 
> that's like using the charge time as an excuse where you guys would claim that the author gave it a 5 min charge time so it can't be use for battle, when the shit is getting spammed and thrown around the battlefield in its own series.


Yea maybe Archer can quick chant it but Gil practically let him use the chant in their fight. If Jeanne is trying to kill him shes not gonna fuck around like Gil, the king of sitting around and messing with people.


Priscilla said:


> I know she usually quotes a line for 20 seconds before excalibur... that doesn't count
> she can fire it immediately in my opinion


that means it wont be as strong as a full blast


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> It only said he can transform once, not that he didnt have any mire seals.


I didn't think i had to spell it out... after all Sieg can only transform via CS. Being able to transform only once means he only has one command seal.


shade0180 said:


> like that matters when he can pull it off every single damn time in a battle. Fuck he pulled it off in front of gilgamesh so why would it matter now.


it matters because in here characters don't get their plot armour, epsecially in front of characters who want to win.


shade0180 said:


> that's like using the charge time as an excuse


it's not an excuse. It's a requirment for unlocking a powerfull technique. Ignoring it makes no sense.


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## shade0180 (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> it matters because in here characters don't get their plot armour, epsecially in front of characters who want to win.



Both side wants to win. He also can pull out NP's before utilizing UBW? seriously how long do you guys think that chant take when they're all MHS in speed?



reyatsuguy said:


> t's not an excuse. It's a requirment for unlocking a powerfull technique. Ignoring it makes no sense.




I'm not ignoring the chant I'm pointing out that he had no problem using it in every damn route in Fate/SN so why would he have a problem utilizing it on this thread.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> He also can pull out NP's before utilizing UBW?


He sure can but it's not the same thing. Projecting shit =/ creating his Reality Marble.


shade0180 said:


> seriously how long do you guys think that chant take when they're all MHS in speed?


I'm not saying he absolutely won't get to use it , i'm just saying that there is a requirment that can't be ignored.Both sides being the same speed renders this argument moot. The chant takes time and that might cost him.


shade0180 said:


> I'm not ignoring the chant I'm pointing out that he had no problem using it in every damn route in Fate/SN


1.That's factually not true. Shirou didn't use UBW in every route.
2. Because he doesn't have plot armour.
3. As others said it fucks him up real bad even if he manages to pull it off.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> I didn't think i had to spell it out... after all Sieg can only transform via CS. Being able to transform only once means he only has one command seal.
> 
> it matters because in here characters don't get their plot armour, epsecially in front of characters who want to win.
> 
> it's not an excuse. It's a requirment for unlocking a powerfull technique. Ignoring it makes no sense.


So hes nerfed and Saber gets shit she normally doesnt have on top of being at her best? Okay


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> So hes nerfed and Saber gets shit she normally doesnt have on top of being at her best?


He's not nerfed. If i wanted to nerf him i would have banned his AOF. Bessides, this match isn't about Seigfried. I only included the transformation just for completion sake, as in , have Sieg display all of his abbilities. Not giving him command seals doesn't mean i nerfed Sieg at all. Don't be stupid.
Also,both scenarios allow and don't allow certain things for both teams.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> He's not nerfed. If i wanted to nerf him i would have banned his AOF. Bessides, this match isn't about Seigfried. I only included the transformation just for completion sake, as in , have Sieg display all of his abbilities. Not giving him command seals doesn't mean i nerfed Sieg at all. Don't be stupid.
> Also,both scenarios allow and don't allow certain things for both teams.


Saber never has Avalon on her own and her optimal stats arent under Shirou, but the 3 command seals are Sieg’s standard.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Saber never has Avalon on her own and her optimal stats arent under Shirou, but the 3 command seals are Sieg’s standard


1. Those are the F/S/N versions of Shirou and Saber so even if Saber doesn't have Avalon, Shirou does.
2. The fact that i gave Saber her optimal stats still doesn't mean Sieg is nerfed.
3. Like i said, i restricted and added shit for both teams in the both scenarios ,trying to get them as ballanced as possible.
4. 3 command's seal Sieg isn't the standard at all since he ain't a master of nobody here. I only added the Siegfried transformation for completion and ballancing sakes.


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## Qinglong (Jan 12, 2018)

Sieg's main use of the Command Spells is to transform into Siegfried so it doesn't really matter anyway.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 12, 2018)

Scenario 1 is a tough call imo

But im lost on how scenario 2 isnt a horrendous stomp in Apocrypha's favor 

Sieg was capable of taking on Karna with a single 5 min use of Siegfrieds power...

Prior to VS of course...And im sure some PIS here or there but still

Hes gonna ragdoll Shirou to say the least

And it doesnt matter who he fights either, as Siegfried is also a horrible match for Saber due to his whole anti dragon nonsense...So he can matchup against either one totally fine

Add in balmung spam like a mother...

How is shiro not pasted like collateral damage here exactly?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

I actually forget Sieg is anti dragon, yea he shits on Saber and then Shirou gets pasted.


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## shade0180 (Jan 12, 2018)

oh yea there's that with Sieg. Scenario 2 is definitely a rape.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

Reminder that Saber has Avalon in S2 and y'all are a little to quick to axe Shirou out of the battle. If he gets to use Nine Lives Blade Works, people will die.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Reminder that Saber has Avalon in S2 and y'all are a little to quick to axe Shirou out of the battle. If he gets to use Nine Lives Blade Works, people will die.


Who is it gonna kill? Jeanne can use her NP and AoF is gonna lolnope it.

Saber wont sit in Avalon for long IC and it wont matter since Balmung spam is endless. Shes a knight of honor so lmao at her cheesing a fight somehow


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Who is it gonna kill? Jeanne can use her NP and AoF is gonna lolnope it.


.... It blitzed the shit out of  Herk so good luck activating Luminosite  the moment Shirou uses it. Also AOF wil NOT lolnope an attack that killed Herk 9 times. Let's also not forget about the unproteced area on his back.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Saber wont sit in Avalon for long IC and it wont matter since Balmung spam is endless. Shes a knight of honor so lmao at her cheesing a fight somehow


BFR'ing Saber in Avalon is not the only power the scabbard has. Regen is a thing .


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Reminder that Saber has Avalon in S2 and y'all are a little to quick to axe Shirou out of the battle. If he gets to use Nine Lives Blade Works, people will die.



No worries

When I have actual access to a computer again the aforementioned ass clowns will be reminded about why they are overhyping cardboard and his waifu


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## Qinglong (Jan 12, 2018)

meanwhile i'll continue chuckling at honorabble seiba


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No worries
> 
> When I have actual access to a computer again the aforementioned ass clowns will be reminded about why they are overhyping cardboard and his waifu


Looking forward to it.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> .... It blitzed the shit out of  Herk so good luck activating Luminosite  the moment Shirou uses it. Also AOF wil NOT lolnope an attack that killed Herk 9 times. Let's also not forget about the unproteced area on his back.


>Dark Herc
>Being anywhere close to real Herc
yea no

Unless they have full knowledge how are they going to know about his weak spot?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Unless they have full knowledge how are they going to know about his weak spot?



...

This is too stupid to let slide on phone 

Shirou’s a fucking psychometric, he can read Balmung


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## shade0180 (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Unless they have full knowledge how are they going to know about his weak spot?



shirou can trace any weapon he sees and read its full history... So that's practically no different from giving him full knowledge.

:


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## Crimson King (Jan 12, 2018)

"That guy's back is unarmored. Let's try stabbing him there"


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> It blitzed the shit out of Herk


Corrupted Herc has even less sense than regular Herc, is blind, lacks Godhand and still retained the wounds from his fight with Alter. And Herc would have still killed Shirou had Ilya not bailed him out after the 8th strike.

Shirou's still strong as hell but you're overstating the feat.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Corrupted Herc has even less sense than regular Herc, is blind,


He still has his Mind's Eye skill so it doesn't mater.


Sablés said:


> lacks Godhand


If he lacked God Hand , he should have died after one strike , he was killed 9 times so God Hand was still active.


Sablés said:


> Shirou's still strong as hell but you're overstating the feat


No, not really , especially relative to what Sieg or Jeanne's resistance would offer against it.


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> He still has his Mind's Eye skill so it doesn't mater.


Being blackened by the mud affects the mind. Saber Alter even loses rank in instinct because of it. Berserker is so far gone that he thinks he's still fighting Artoria.



> If he lacked God Hand , he should have died after one strike , he was killed 9 times so God Hand was still active.





> …That's the black enemy's true identity.
> Kotomine said his eyes can't see.
> He's right, but he's not accurate.
> 
> ...





> He's still fighting his battle against Saber.
> He is blind and insane, his life has ended twice over, and his body is rotting, but he's still fighting to protect Ilya



If Berserker had GH, he'd have regenerated from these wounds. Instead he's described as still being in the same state as when he was defeated. We also see outright that he tore off his own skin (aka Godhand) when Saber attacked him.

There's also no mention of Herc dying even once to Shirou's 8 attacks. He lost an eighth of his body, that's all we know.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Being blackened by the mud affects the mind. Saber Alter even loses rank in instinct because of it. Berserker is so far gone that he thinks he's still fighting Artoria.


There's no mention of the black mud doing anything to his skill. His skill allows him to dodge shit he saw before. if only by muscle memory.. so i think he would at least react to his own weapon/attack. It is pure instinct after all.


Sablés said:


> If Berserker had GH, he'd have regenerated from these wounds. Instead he's described as still being in the same state as when he was defeated. We also see outright that he tore off his own skin (aka Godhand) when Saber attacked him.


There's also no mention of GH being negated...the black mud might have affected it's regenerative abbilities but  not negate it completely.
God hand is also more of a conceptual thing, it's described as being a blessing/curse. It's not literally his flesh.


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> There's no mention of the black mud doing anything to his skill


>AM's entire deal is mindfuckery
>Already examples of instinct like skill being debilitated
>Herc is deliberately described as being even more mentally impaired than usual

Are you trolling?



> There's also no mention of GH being negated...the black mud might have affected it's regenerative abbilities but  not negate it completely.


>GH doesn't do any of the things it's supposed to
>Would not change the fact that Herc is perpetually in a near death-like (rotting) state as his regeneration is gone, thereby making the whole point of resurrection moot.

I ask again. Are you trolling?



> God hand is also more of a conceptual thing, it's described as being a blessing/curse. It's not literally his flesh.


Only it is literally his flesh???



> A blessing of Gods, as well as a curse. It is a Noble Phantasm given to Heracles, representing immortality. This Noble Phantasm does not have an overt external manifestation such as a weapon or armour, *but if you hazard to put a shape to it, the body itself can be called the Noble Phantasm. God Hand turns one’s body into a tough suit of armour and nullifies all attacks Rank B or lower, regardless the attack being physical or magical*. It also has the effect of automatic resurrection after death. Because the resurrection effect has 11 uses, Heracles cannot perish unless killed 12 times. In addition, due to Ilya’s immense magical energy, given enough time, the lives lost can also be regenerated.





> *Battle Continuation:* A
> A skill that allows for the continuation of combat after sustaining mortal wounds. It will also reduce mortality rate from injury. Cú Chulainn’s Battle Continuation represents “never give up no matter what”, while Hercules’ represents the ability to survive. The Noble Phantasm that allows for resurrection after death, *God Hand, has exceptional compatibility with the “will not die easily” skill Battle Continuation.
> The best result is achieved when a resilient body is combined with this skill*.


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

And again, you didn't even address whether or not Shirou is shown to actually kill the man before the last hit.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 12, 2018)

IIRC the Grail's corruption made him blind and corrupted his divinity. Combine that with his injuries vs SAlter, he was basically a roaming zombie

And Shirou lucked out cuz of Ilyia, otherwise he was gonna get pasted

9 Lives is fast but even against a blind, deaf and dumb Herk (I know he's not deaf but fuck you, the joke stays), not fast enough

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

Sablés said:


> >AM's entire deal is mindfuckery
> >Already examples of instinct like skill being debilitated
> >Herc is deliberately described as being even more mentally impaired than usual


>State of mind has nothing do with instinct and muscle memory. Also deabilitated doesn't mean nullifying.
> I
>can
>do
>this
>too.


Sablés said:


> >GH doesn't do any of the things it's supposed to
> >Would not change the fact that Herc is perpetually in a near death-like (rotting) state as his regeneration is gone, thereby making the whole point of resurrection moot.


Source of GH being 100% negated and i'll concede. I already said that the mud might have weakened or hampered GH in some way  ..but that doesn't mean that it  completely went away.



Sablés said:


> Only it is literally his flesh???


Ok, let's go with this... *but if you hazard to put a shape to it, the body itself .*
A body means more than just flesh..so good job, you debunked your own claim.


Sablés said:


> And again, you didn't even address whether or not Shirou is shown to actually kill the man


That's cause i don't have the VN shit on me right now. I'll look for it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jan 12, 2018)

>Herk can still recognize the use of magic even in his state
>Herk being blind and insane, still fighting Saber in his mind
>the fight will be decided in 3 seconds
>1 second to trace Herk's rock sword and deactivate Shirou's limitations
>2 seconds, Herk closes in and both him and Shirou attack each other and Shirou aims at 8 targets
>Shirou achieving godspeed and attacks 8 times but Herk doesn't fall (most likely Battle Continuation in effect), but an 8th of his body is lost
>Shirou continues to attack by attacking the chest but Herk is still faster, Shirou attempts to react and evade but its not enough
>Herk's attack directly can destroy the ground and a mere graze would still murder him
>Herk stops immediately cuz of Illya
>Shirou kills Herk

Thats basically the breakdown of the fight

Reactions: Informative 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 12, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Spamming Balmung would put Saber on the defensive considering what it did to Karna. Unless she decides to sit in Avalon till time runs out (she wont IC) Balmung spam isnt going to give her time to use Excalibur



Saber walked trough EA to oneshot Gilgamesh.

And Excalibur will punch right trough Balmung if it's rekeased at close distance.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> UBW has a long ass chant and Archers arm destroys his mind.



Yeah but thats not a real problem, UBW can be chanted while he dodges and Archers arm doesnt inmediately destroy his mind.


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Source of GH being 100% negated and i'll concede. I already said that the mud might have weakened or hampered GH in some way ..but that doesn't mean that it completely went away.





reyatsuguy said:


> Unless you actually have quantfiable info on how much weaker Dark Herk is in comparison to normal Herk and in what way exactly..it really doesn't matter. The fact that it managed to be too fast for Herk to react to it remains.The fact that it also managed to take nine lives from his God Hand also still remains.



The onus is on you to prove Dark Berserker can be scaled to Herc proper for it to act as a foothold for Shirou against Sieg/Jeanne (don't actually care if it does since I don't have a say in the fight).

Assuming GH is still active, it wouldn't make a difference because it's hampered to severe lengths. Herc may as well be the equivalent of a semi-corpse running on adrenaline.


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## Sablés (Jan 12, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Saber walked trough EA to oneshot Gilgamesh.


edit: didn't read that right.

If Saber's got avalon, she can beat Sieg.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 12, 2018)

So yeah, apparently it doesn't kill him nine times from the description, though it can still fall to interpretation as Shirou stated that Herk lost lives before but whatever...i guess i'll concede that point. Nine Lives is still strong enough to fuck up Herk's spiriton core though. The speed point still stands, however.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Spamming Balmung would put Saber on the defensive considering what it did to Karna.



You say this as if Karna's got amazing stats outside of his VS 

He doesn't

His defense is overrated, his strength stat in the ballpark of everyone else, and his speed is nice at Cu Chulainn tier

He's nothing special in terms of raw stats, its his weapons like Gil that put him at the top of the pile



> Unless she decides to sit in Avalon till time runs out (she wont IC) Balmung spam isnt going to give her time to use Excalibur



She doesn't need to charge Excalibur to full to overpower Balmung, Excalibur can punch through Balmung barely charged beyond it



OneSimpleAnime said:


> that means it wont be as strong as a full blast



You say this as if Balmung remotely compares to Excalibur without its FGO rate up to EX



WorldsStrongest said:


> Sieg was capable of taking on Karna with a single 5 min use of Siegfrieds power...
> 
> Prior to VS of course...And im sure some PIS here or there but still



Again, how exactly is Karna special outside of VS?



> Hes gonna ragdoll Shirou to say the least



If he's stupid enough to project something as stupid as black keys over a useful NP, sure

This is the same dumbass that, with the right weapon, can trade blows with Berserker

So long as he doesn't have to tank shit without his Sword Armor Reinforcement shit, that was able to survive eating attacks from Gram in Fate?

Shirou can still function in a fight vs Sieg so long as he can stay in close to possibly neuter Balmung for a time. He's still going to lose in a fight without NP, but he's not worthless given the fuckers he's had to contend with in melee depending on the projection



> And it doesnt matter who he fights either, as Siegfried is also a horrible match for Saber due to his whole anti dragon nonsense...So he can matchup against either one totally fine



Anti-Dragon only matters when it comes to dealing damage

Its not like it will power him through an Excaliblast if they get into a beam-o-war

And given Servant Durability is tissue paper compared to their NP, the poorly defined "anti-dragon" shit is about as useful in a vs debate as contemplating type advantage in pokemon threads

You can't quantify it, thus its barely useful fluff



> Add in balmung spam like a mother...
> 
> How is shiro not pasted like collateral damage here exactly?



You're overstating how rapid fire Balmung was being shot vs Karna *shrugs*

Shirou does fall to Balmung, but can Sieg even charge and fire it if his opponents are at close range?


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 13, 2018)

Just gonna put it out there that Balmung is a prototype of Excalibur and should therefore be stronger

But Excalibur has it beaten due to fame


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Just gonna put it out there that Balmung is a prototype of Excalibur and should therefore be stronger



And the EX version is

It is EX ranked, but only in FGO so far

FA Balmung is only an A+ though


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 13, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> And the EX version is
> 
> It is EX ranked, but only in FGO so far
> 
> FA Balmung is only an A+ though


I'm pretty sure the GO rank is a retcon on the Apocrypha one since Balmung was able to stop Vasavi shakti for a time despite being lower ranked.

That and the fact that Balmung uses ether from the Age of Gods to fire its Beam which is how I'm guessing it managed the feat

but we basically got 0 info in GO apart from Seigfried saying that he could use Balmung's full power in an interlude so take this with a grain of salt.


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## Sablés (Jan 13, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You say this as if Karna's got amazing stats outside of his VS


That depends on what you mean. 

If you're speaking relative to top-tier servant stats then Karna ranks at the top. At least Narita seems to think so because Herc and Karna were the two used as a reference for how batshit Enkidu would be with A parameters across the board. 

In terms of speed, he's slightly slower than Achilles who is the fastest servant, Durability-wise nothing short of the very strongest NPs out there will accomplish anything meaningful. And even if one could, armorless Karna has taken Galatine to the face with reduced endurance and tanked burning his own insides along with Vlad's stakes. Strength-wise? Nothing special among top-servants...until you account for how bullshit mana burst is for a skill. 

Additionally, it's said a master would need to be absolute dogshit to lose a Grail war with Karna. Which is pretty telling considering even top magi wouldn't be able to use mana burst without dying, not even getting into his offensive NPs. That means stats are more or less enough for him to trump most servants.

Gil is a decent fighter who needs NPs to be the best. Karna is a great fighter even with massive drawbacks that prevent him from fighting at full strength constantly.

Lastly, Stat rankings also aren't absolute. It doesn't take skill into account and Nasu has already mention there's important shit that isn't accounted for in them.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> I'm pretty sure the GO rank is a retcon on the Apocrypha one since Balmung was able to stop Vasavi shakti for a time despite being lower ranked.



Wasn't that only after a command seal? Because Sieg figured he was holding Balmung and Siegfried back?

I mean, I don't see why Balmung couldn't have just been neutered in general in the summons into FA and the EX is it performing at its best be it Siegfried in Life or under a master that could functionally use that kind of power *shrugs*



> but we basically got 0 info in GO apart from Seigfried saying that he could use Balmung's full power in an interlude so take this with a grain of salt.



Yeah, saw that interlude while getting bond levels farming gears...

Saw a few interludes with interesting exposition actually, like I vaguely recall Altera's NP being referred as some kind of world razer in... LAlter's interlude? (not verbatim and I forget the context though)



Sablés said:


> That depends on what you mean.
> 
> If you're speaking relative to top-tier servant stats then Karna ranks at the top. At least Narita seems to think so because Herc and Karna were the two used as a reference for how batshit Enkidu would be with A parameters across the board.



Context kind of seems important because that comparison doesn't preclude it to referring to comparison with them firing at all cylinders like VS

In terms of speed, he's slightly slower than Achilles who is the fastest servant



> Durability-wise nothing short of the very strongest NPs out there will accomplish anything meaningful.



I've only been given feats of him eating shit up to A+ in past threads

And his confirmable upper limit seems to be his brother's NP

Not sure how to use that given his NP at an A+ outperformed Tesla's?



> And even if one could, armorless Karna has taken Galatine to the face with reduced endurance and tanked burning his own insides along with Vlad's stakes.



How the fuck did he eat Galatine with a C in endurance?

That screams hilarious outlier 

Vlad's stakes makes more sense given his NP isn't really that amazing to begin with



> Strength-wise? Nothing special among top-servants...until you account for how bullshit mana burst is for a skill.



Good luck accounting for it in the same manner you can't account for anti-dragon bullshit in this hobby

Its pretty fluff as far as we're concerned because the difference between him using it and not are undetectable for our purposes

Kind of like how DBS is stuck with using BoG feats to inform us of fucking Jiren's power 



> Additionally, it's said a master would need to be absolute dogshit to lose a Grail war with Karna. Which is pretty telling considering even top magi wouldn't be able to use mana burst without dying, not even getting into his offensive NPs. That means stats are more or less enough for him to trump most servants.



Context is key, and even then sounds nonsensical with how his stats are listed on paper

He's too mana hungry to use his good shit, but his listed stats suck?



> Gil is a decent fighter who needs NPs to be the best. Karna is a great fighter even with massive drawbacks that prevent him from fighting at full strength constantly.



Isn't one of his drawbacks only a rank down if he's unknown?



> Lastly, Stat rankings also aren't absolute.



There's variation in the tier, but nothing should be egregious enough to not inform us of general ability

You fuckers kind of annoy me though with this shit

Either they function to use or abandon them, there is no middle ground if you want a coherent picture



> It doesn't take skill into account



Ah, the myth that skill actually matter any significant extent



> and Nasu has already mention there's important shit that isn't accounted for in them.



What specifically isn't accounted for?

Is it actually relevant?


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

Extra Karna has A rank endurance.That's probably why he survived a Galantine to the face. Gaia Karna has C.
Also strenght wise..Karna hits hard..like really hard due to VS. Siegfired was supposed to be turned into mush by physicall strikes alone if not for AOF.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Extra Karna has A rank endurance.That's probably why he survived a Galantine to the face.



Ah, that makes more sense then

Doesn't Moon Cell allow for artificial buffs though or some shit?



> Also strenght wise..Karna hits hard..like really hard due to VS. Siegfired was supposed to be turned into mush by physicall strikes alone if not for AOF.



Sounds little different than something Heracles or Asterios could accomplish relative to fighting fuckers with A in endurance

Its good, but disparity in striking power between the tiers isn't significant when a C (Kojirou) can compensate enough with skill to reliably trade strikes with someone that can block blows from Heracles *shrugs*


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Ah, that makes more sense then
> 
> Doesn't Moon Cell allow for artificial buffs though or some shit?


It does by Alteration of Soul..but due to his shit master who was a shut-in... i don't think he ever got the chance to benefiet from it.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Sounds little different than something Heracles or Asterios could accomplish relative to fighting fuckers with A in endurance
> 
> Its good, but disparity in striking power between the tiers isn't significant when a C (Kojirou) can compensate enough with skill to reliably trade strikes with someone that can block blows from Heracles *shrugs*


Karna's physicall strikes basically ammount to A rank due to VS and that's without his high level rank Mana Burst so..take that as you will


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> It does by Alteration of Soul..but due to his shit master who was a shut-in... i don't think he ever got the chance to benefiet from it.



Could be

Seems kind of odd his stats are so different on the moon though then



> Karna's physicall strikes basically ammount to A rank due to VS and that's without his high level rank Mana Burst so..take that as you will



Sounds ballpark for comparing him to Herk or Asterios while using it *shrugs*

Regardless, Sieg could block them right, which isn't dependent on his durability to accomplish

Karna's strength doesn't have a significant multiplier while using it considering that much

Which itself remains consistent with the fact the disparity between tiers in general isn't enormous


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## John Wayne (Jan 13, 2018)

Siegfried wasn't really blocking them per say, it was more like he was leaning on AoF real hard in their fight to face tank the blows and they all knew it.


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## Sablés (Jan 13, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Context kind of seems important because that comparison doesn't preclude it to referring to comparison with them firing at all cylinders like VS




*Spoiler*: __ 





> Me: "About Enkidu's stats, he has 'Transfiguration,' so I wanted to set his point total..."
> 
> Nasu: "Hmm. He is Enkidu, and he's A rank, so all As."
> 
> ...





Is the whole evidence for that quote. Not particularly strong evidence, but enough to say Karna is pretty noteworthy in terms of stats 



> I've only been given feats of him eating shit up to A+ in past threads
> 
> And his confirmable upper limit seems to be his brother's NP
> 
> Not sure how to use that given his NP at an A+ outperformed Tesla's?


If you mean Pasuhpata. Arjuna's NP is DC and hax. It chances an insta-kill depending on how high the opponent's divinity rank is. Karna's is like A IIRC so he's pretty fucked.

Pashupata is also A++ rank and I don't know why Tesla's NP is EX with it's poor showings.



> How the fuck did he eat Galatine with a C in endurance?
> 
> That screams hilarious outlier
> 
> Vlad's stakes makes more sense given his NP isn't really that amazing to begin with



He has A rank endurance in Extra. Don't remember how though.



> Good luck accounting for it in the same manner you can't account for anti-dragon bullshit in this hobby
> 
> Its pretty fluff as far as we're concerned because the difference between him using it and not are undetectable for our purposes
> 
> Kind of like how DBS is stuck with using BoG feats to inform us of fucking Jiren's power


Fair. For reference though. Magical energy is what allows Artoria to go from the level of a human girl to top servant parameters. Mana burst is particularly the only reason she can ever contend with Herc



> The ability to reinforce one’s weapon and body through the infusion of magical energy. By reinforcing the ability of the body to a great extend using magical energy, *the physically fragile Artoria was able to fight head on with monsters such as Berserker*. At rank A, even a stick can become a weapon of great power.
> Executing large-scale body reinforcement through Mana Burst is only possible with Artoria’s immense magical power.





> Context is key, and even then sounds nonsensical with how his stats are listed on paper
> 
> He's too mana hungry to use his good shit, but his listed stats suck?


More or less.

His base stats are generally around  the KoTR, who themselves are considered A rank.



> Isn't one of his drawbacks only a rank down if he's unknown?


His draw backs is being economically inefficient and the trading off his armor for VS. 



> Ah, the myth that skill actually matter any significant extent


Kojiro sort of blows the myth part out of the water tbh. You shouldn't look at a stat sheet and think that's all there will be in relation to servant's overall power.

And Karna's skill is actually quantifiable. It's stated to be enough for his strength parameter to go from B -> A.



> What specifically isn't accounted for?
> 
> Is it actually relevant?



*Spoiler*: __ 





> 4Gamer*:* If I may change the subject for a bit, how do you decide on the parameters for Servants?
> 
> Nasu*:* About that, there are actually clear rules for deciding on their parameters. The statuses range from A to E, and they’re distributed such that there are no duplicate letters. That’s a remnant of an old TRPG system I made.
> 
> ...



Of course, as per typical nasu fashion, he doesn't elaborate on this shit


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 13, 2018)

Tesla's NP is EX rank because it is also kind of haxx.
*By releasing its true name, an entire area can be destroyed through the generation of a limited pseudo time-space vault.*

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Deer Lord (Jan 13, 2018)

GiveRobert20dollars said:


> Just gonna put it out there that Balmung is a prototype of Excalibur and should therefore be stronger


Is it tho?
I'm aware that both Balmung and Excalibur are rip-offs of the original Gram
but is Excalibur derived from Balmung rather than both being different renditions of Gram?
(I'm asking this because I don't actually know which between Arthurian Myth or Siegfried is actually older, which both obviously deriving influence from Sigurd)


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## Regicide (Jan 13, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Of course, as per typical nasu fashion, he doesn't elaborate on this shit


I just think of it like how base levels work in Devil Survivor.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 13, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Fair. For reference though. Magical energy is what allows Artoria to go from the level of a human girl to top servant parameters. Mana burst is particularly the only reason she can ever contend with Herc


Her mana rank is A to Karna's B, and his Mana Burst takes way more energy to use as well.


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## Sablés (Jan 13, 2018)

Regicide said:


> I just think of it like how base levels work in Devil Survivor.


Never played so I wouldn't know.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Her mana rank is A to Karna's B, and his Mana Burst takes way more energy to use as well.


Mana burst flames is A rank. Artoria's burst is the same and is the boost referred to in the description.

And do we even know what the mana rank entails?


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## Regicide (Jan 13, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Never played so I wouldn't know.




Stats in DeSu only go up to 40, with the catch being that base levels are factored into damage calculations.

In theory, you could have a Pixie (level two) that's fully maxed out, but that same Pixie would get its teeth kicked in by a Spriggan (level 54) despite having considerably lower stats.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 13, 2018)

Sablés said:


> Never played so I wouldn't know.
> 
> 
> Mana burst flames is A rank. Artoria's burst is the same and is the boost referred to in the description.
> ...


I always figured it was their personal mana reverses, like how Artoria can basically use anything bar Excalibur under Shirou without him giving her mana since hes shit.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jan 13, 2018)

I have a question about Gram being a prototype of Excalibur. Isn't Excalibur some super ultimate last resort weapon the planet made to kill Sefar? How does that mesh with the prototype thing?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 13, 2018)

John Wayne said:


> Siegfried wasn't really blocking them per say, it was more like he was leaning on AoF real hard in their fight to face tank the blows and they all knew it.



You have a link to the LN fight by any chance btw?

Haven't tried too hard to find it admittedly, but my only source for FA so far has been the middling anime *shrugs*



Sablés said:


> Is the whole evidence for that quote. Not particularly strong evidence, but enough to say Karna is pretty noteworthy in terms of stats



Not sure you can take the statement the way you're trying to to be honest

He notes Enkidu being all As is even beyond Herakles, then mentions Karna in passing as he's another Lancer (who's stats are reflective of Cu's on paper in Strength, Speed, and Endurance)

Its incredibly weak as it can just be taken as matter of fact statement in terms of comparison more than anything else as both servants he's compared to objectively rank beneath all As



> If you mean Pasuhpata. Arjuna's NP is DC and hax. It chances an insta-kill depending on how high the opponent's divinity rank is.



Ah, so it killing 28 Demon Pillars isn't necessarily a showing of raw power then

That's less of a headache



> Karna's is like A IIRC so he's pretty fucked.



How's he fucked when part of Karna's myth is all about how his amazing armor would make it an utter bitch for Arjuna to murder his brother?

Kind of the reason he got Indra to give him VS for giving up said amazing armor?

If Arjuna could kill Karna with Pasuhpata? There's no need for Karna to give up his armor in the Legend



> Pashupata is also A++ rank and I don't know why Tesla's NP is EX with it's poor showings.



Says A+ on my FGO account *shrugs*

Does it get a power up interlude? Because where's A+ from?

Wouldn't call Tesla's potential power to disperse all the Fog in London to cover the United Kingdom a poor showing

Not quite sure why he needed to be in the densest area for more than efficiency though *shrugs*



> He has A rank endurance in Extra. Don't remember how though.



Extra might as well be a different character though and certainly doesn't apply to the one that fought Sieg



> Fair. For reference though. Magical energy is what allows Artoria to go from the level of a human girl to top servant parameters. Mana burst is particularly the only reason she can ever contend with Herc



I know?

She uses her mana/magic/generic magic system energy to amp her stats like any generic magic setting would, not exactly anything news worthy or special here

Now, is she a B in strength circulating mana then able to amp herself further with Mana Burst? Or is it Mana Burst that makes her a B?

Either way, it doesn't matter, though the latter interpretation would make the piddling difference between strength tiers even more evident than it already is



> More or less.
> 
> His base stats are generally around  the KoTR, who themselves are considered A rank.



Which KOTR?



> His draw backs is being economically inefficient and the trading off his armor for VS.



Isn't VS only a one shot attack too?



> Kojiro sort of blows the myth part out of the water tbh. You shouldn't look at a stat sheet and think that's all there will be in relation to servant's overall power.



Kojirou exists to tell us skill is a rubbish multiplier

He's a C in strength and can contend with someone that can trade blows with Herakles due to compensating with skill

We have weight classes in real life to inform us of just how little skill means when stats differ by (relatively) piddling amounts

Skill's no double digit multiplier, it probably barely functions at a 2 to 3 times one given we have ourselves to draw from (and that's being generous, I don't even think skill would compensate for a less than 2 times difference in stats between people)



> And Karna's skill is actually quantifiable. It's stated to be enough for his strength parameter to go from B -> A.



That just strengthens my point *shrugs*


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 14, 2018)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> I have a question about Gram being a prototype of Excalibur


Gram isn't the prototype for Excalibur. It's the prototype to Caliburn. The relation between Gram and Excalibur is supposed to be that of a rivalrly. Excalibur is the strongest holy sword and Gram is the strongest demonic sword.


CrossTheHorizon said:


> Isn't Excalibur some super ultimate last resort weapon the planet made to kill Sefar?


It was made as a  means to deal with any super threats to the planet in general... not specifically Sefar.


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## Qinglong (Jan 14, 2018)

Demon Pillars have no divinity so Pashupata gains no bonuses against them


Pashupata was one of the Noble Phantasms who received a Rank Down in an update some months ago, despite getting a NP interlude. Clarent Blood Arthur was another one.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 14, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Kojirou exists to tell us skill is a rubbish multiplier
> 
> He's a C in strength and can contend with someone that can trade blows with Herakles due to compensating with skill
> 
> ...



In fiction skill can close any stat difference except maybe speed, specially in a sword fight.

IRL, is true that weight clases exist for a reason but that's among professionals, a normal 90kg dude is going to get murked by a decent 70 kg fighter.

You are right that there isn't a big difference between C and A stats among Servants but I just had to point this out


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jan 14, 2018)

"Skill" means something different in fiction anyway.

Soujirou gained the ability to refract dimensions because of "skill".


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 14, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In fiction skill can close any stat difference except maybe speed, specially in a sword fight.



In fiction, we use real life to inform our conclusions for purpose of comparison, so no, not in the slightest.

Why do you think we continuously fail to compare character skill between franchises?

Its dog piss to consider without comparable stats and hard to actually even quantify



> IRL, is true that weight clases exist for a reason but that's among professionals, a normal 90kg dude is going to get murked by a decent 70 kg fighter.



...

You're just regurgitating what I noted

How much more KE do you think a 90 kg person is generating vs a 70 kg one with their attacks?

The difference between the two is so pithy, skill compensates massively for the minor difference in raw stats



CrossTheHorizon said:


> "Skill" means something different in fiction anyway.
> 
> Soujirou gained the ability to refract dimensions because of "skill".



No, it really doesn't, especially for the purpose of this hobby, where we use reality to inform our conclusions

Refracting dimensions with skill is hilariously unquantifiable in the first place anyway, and is functionally hax


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 14, 2018)

Tsubae Gaeshi, Mumyo Sandanzuki,Kenjutsu Muso and their ''imposible" effects have all been achieved through pure skill. Perhaps an  even  apt example is Kuzuki or Bazett who can go one on one with servants and even beat them...(Bazett can beat the living shit out of Avenger with cqc alone and we all know what Kuzuki is capable off).


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jan 14, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, it really doesn't, especially for the purpose of this hobby, where we use reality to inform our conclusions
> 
> Refracting dimensions with skill is hilariously unquantifiable in the first place anyway, and is functionally hax



That's my point, though.

We know Kojirou, within context of the narrative, is skilled enough to deflect and ward off blows from an opponent who is physically superior to him by a large margin.

So within context of a fight like this, he can deal with attacks of people with similar power.

However, his own physical strength, and therefore his ability to take and dish out damage, isn't scalable to the person he was deflecting.

It's not like fictional characters are limited to the level of skill normal people are.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 14, 2018)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> We know Kojirou, within context of the narrative, is skilled enough to deflect and ward off blows from an opponent who is physically superior to him by a large margin


That's not the case though... Shirou's Saber ins't superior to him by a large margin and there were other factors involved.
First of all, Kojirou fully benefieted from his position. He used his upper ground to always keep Saber at bay and on the defensive.
Second... Saber's B rank (40) isn't much bigger than his C(30) especially when you look at the whole stat panel ( values ranging from 10 to 100). We also have plenty of examples where people who are two ranks inferior in strength to their enemy don't get ragdolled and can fully stand their ground against them.
Third..Saber never used her mana burst which is what enabled her to contend with physicall power-houses like Herk in the first place.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 14, 2018)

Would apreciate it if we could back on-topic though.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 14, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> In fiction, we use real life to inform our conclusions for purpose of comparison, so no, not in the slightest.
> 
> Why do you think we continuously fail to compare character skill between franchises?
> 
> ...



In the example I gave the 90kg person would normally win with a single punch while the 70kg punches would barely be slaps, I guess it depends on what you consider a pithy difference.

But just as irl  there's no exponential physical differences between humans,the skill ceiling in reality is also far lower than in fiction. Skill in fiction can give abilities that are practically supernatural, people fighting someone they can't even see or that can plaster them with a finger is pretty common.

In fights with similar stats among characters with actual feats of skill it is easy to know who would win, you just wont have a solid number on it.



reyatsuguy said:


> Would apreciate it if we could back on-topic though.



In the second scenario they can't really do anything against Avalon, in the first Saber is still better than Sieg who is an inexperienced fighter with a lesser NP even if he can spam it.

And none of them can just walk trough Shiro.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 15, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In the second scenario they can't really do anything against Avalon, in the first Saber is still better than Sieg who is an inexperienced fighter with a lesser NP even if he can spam it.


Oh more Saber wank...
First of all, everything that Sieg's team can dish out can be negated by Avalon, that's true... BUT everything that Saber's team can dish out can be in fact blocked by Luminosite. So, you hace an equal setting more or less for both sides...
Another couple things here... Jeanne benefiets from two things: True name discernement which lets her instantly know the true name and skills and shit of other servants + revelations which act as precog so chances are that she will know what Saber will do before Saber will herself.
Not to mention that she has an EX rank NP that a pseudo-black hole failed to stop completely....
Why do people don't take all this shit into account ?
I can't believe how ignored Jeanne is here...



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> And none of them can just walk trough Shiro.


Yeah, i spent two pages telling people that , however, that doesn;t mean he can't be beaten.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jan 15, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Oh more Saber wank...
> First of all, everything that Sieg's team can dish out can be negated by Avalon, that's true... BUT everything that Saber's team can dish out can be in fact blocked by Luminosite. So, you hace an equal setting more or less for both sides...
> Another couple things here... Jeanne benefiets from two things: True name discernement which lets her instantly know the true name and skills and shit of other servants + revelations which act as precog so chances are that she will know what Saber will do before Saber will herself.
> Not to mention that she has an EX rank NP that a pseudo-black hole failed to stop completely....
> ...



Revelations doesn't work like that, she can't use it in combat. If anything, Saber's the one with that advantage, given instinct.

Her EX Rank NP can't get through Avalon, which both of the people on the other side can pop at a moment's notice. And then Jeanne is dead and Seig is left fighting them both.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 15, 2018)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> Revelations doesn't work like that, she can't use it in combat. If anything, Saber's the one with that advantage, given instinct.


Yeah, except the revelations are passive..so it doesn't matter if she can't expresely use them in combat..they are still gonna happen.


CrossTheHorizon said:


> Saber's the one with that advantage, given instinct.


>Saber's Instinct.. lel..she's thw worst user of this particular skill.


CrossTheHorizon said:


> Her EX Rank NP can't get through Avalon, which both of the people on the other side can pop at a moment's notice


Yes, i have noted that but Luminosite can do the same for the other side + due to True Name Discernement and Revelations, Jeanne can plan ahead.


CrossTheHorizon said:


> And then Jeanne is dead and Seig is left fighting them both.


Sure, that's one possible scenario .


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## John Wayne (Jan 15, 2018)

Revelation is described as working like instinct but unlike instinct it works both in and out of battles.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 15, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> In the example I gave the 90kg person would normally win with a single punch while the 70kg punches would barely be slaps, I guess it depends on what you consider a pithy difference.



"barely be slaps"

Do you realize how pithy a component mass is to the KE equation?

If there's a fucker at 70 kg that's throwing a punch even 1.5-2 times weaker than the 90 kg individual, its only due to them failing to understand how to properly use their mass to the fullest to achieve the greatest amount of force.



> But just as irl  there's no exponential physical differences between humans,the skill ceiling in reality is also far lower than in fiction.



I know, which is why its the perfect model to demonstrate just how overstated skill is

The skill ceiling is low everywhere, be it real life or fiction

There is only so much you can do to hone precision, remove unneeded motion, and understand how to look for openings. The scale these things exist on is puny compared to how boundless the upper limit exists for things like raw physical stats in fiction.



> Skill in fiction can give abilities that are practically supernatural, people fighting someone they can't even see or that can plaster them with a finger is pretty common.



You're confusing raw stats masking skill's ceiling for skill having a different ceiling at all



CrossTheHorizon said:


> That's my point, though.
> 
> We know Kojirou, within context of the narrative, is skilled enough to deflect and ward off blows from an opponent who is physically superior to him by a large margin.



This logic is cancerous 

You pretend there's a large strength gap when the fact he can use skill to close said gap and trade blows with her is indicative strength gaps are pithy between tiers

Reality informs how we judge this hobby, reality informs us skill has a low upper ceiling, ergo stats need some form of parity within pithy single digit multipliers of each other



reyatsuguy said:


> Tsubae Gaeshi, Mumyo Sandanzuki,Kenjutsu Muso and their ''imposible" effects have all been achieved through pure skill. Perhaps an  even  apt example is Kuzuki or Bazett who can go one on one with servants and even beat them...(Bazett can beat the living shit out of Avenger with cqc alone and we all know what Kuzuki is capable off).



And the impossible just comes down to hax in the end, this doesn't magically make skill a meaningful multiplier beyond peers or ratios achievable at a human level



reyatsuguy said:


> Would apreciate it if we could back on-topic though.



The discussion is related to your thread *shrugs*

Karna's relevant to Sieg, who's in this thread

For the overall match though?

Was Amakusa Shirou still amped by the Holy Grail fighting Galvanism Sieg?


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## Xhominid (Jan 15, 2018)

reyatsuguy said:


> Tesla's NP is EX rank because it is also kind of haxx.
> *By releasing its true name, an entire area can be destroyed through the generation of a limited pseudo time-space vault.*



So is Edison's and I believe Schezerade's(not sure of Holmes has an EX rank NP but it seems like it should).

And to be fair to Tesla, he's an absolute outlier considering that he's primarily that strong because his benefits of mankind benefited him as a Servant that damn much despite being so recent(Edison is what should have happened to him, instead he comes out damn near close to a Mid-Top Tier Servant)


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 15, 2018)

Xhominid said:


> So is Edison's and I believe Schezerade's(not sure of Holmes has an EX rank NP but it seems like it should).
> 
> And to be fair to Tesla, he's an absolute outlier considering that he's primarily that strong because his benefits of mankind benefited him as a Servant that damn much despite being so recent(Edison is what should have happened to him, instead he comes out damn near close to a Mid-Top Tier Servant)


Im pretty sure Holmes is EX rank due to how it works


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## Xhominid (Jan 15, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Im pretty sure Holmes is EX rank due to how it works



Yeah I was just making sure...

If it wasn't for the fact that they was only in Fate/GO(or in Schezerade's case, completely useless), they would be very broken Servants in their own ways.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 15, 2018)

Xhominid said:


> Yeah I was just making sure...
> 
> If it wasn't for the fact that they was only in Fate/GO(or in Schezerade's case, completely useless), they would be very broken Servants in their own ways.


Oh nvm i was wrong, its B rank for some reason. Weird af

Thanks Nasu


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## Qinglong (Jan 15, 2018)

Wait for Mats then you can complain the writer involved didn't explain shit

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Xhominid (Jan 15, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Oh nvm i was wrong, its B rank for some reason. Weird af
> 
> Thanks Nasu



That is pretty weird for such an OP ability(I mean sure, you still have to solve it afterwards but literally bending all possibilities to an actual outcome you can reach is ridiculous).


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 15, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> "barely be slaps"
> 
> Do you realize how pithy a component mass is to the KE equation?
> 
> If there's a fucker at 70 kg that's throwing a punch even 1.5-2 times weaker than the 90 kg individual, its only due to them failing to understand how to properly use their mass to the fullest to achieve the greatest amount of force.



That's what happens with normal people.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know, which is why its the perfect model to demonstrate just how overstated skill is
> 
> The skill ceiling is low everywhere, be it real life or fiction
> 
> There is only so much you can do to hone precision, remove unneeded motion, and understand how to look for openings. The scale these things exist on is puny compared to how boundless the upper limit exists for things like raw physical stats in fiction.



It's not tho, it's just that physical stats can be increased near endlessly while skill turns into hax most of the time.

Kojiro isn't that much weaker than Saber because all servants have been shown to be able to at least fight each other defensively,more or less in the same level, but ignoring all that Nasu could make Kojiro 10,100 or a 1000 times weaker and still make him match Arturia trough pure skill.



Xhominid said:


> That is pretty weird for such an OP ability(I mean sure, you still have to solve it afterwards but literally bending all possibilities to an actual outcome you can reach is ridiculous).



Maybe because EX rank would be something like "the real solution to this mystery doesn't matter, I will make my own theory the correct answer trough reality warping"


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 16, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> That's what happens with normal people.



That's what happens at all scales when shit is broadly comparable



> It's not tho, it's just that physical stats can be increased near endlessly while skill turns into hax most of the time.



And yet the "hax" plays no part in their ability to physically contend, rather the hax is an entirely separate, impossible to quantify, byproduct 

Skill in relation to raw stats, regardless of included hax byproduct, has a low ceiling when compared to raw stats, period



> Kojiro isn't that much weaker than Saber because all servants have been shown to be able to at least fight each other defensively,more or less in the same level, but ignoring all that Nasu could make Kojiro 10,100 or a 1000 times weaker and still make him match Arturia trough pure skill.



No, Nasu claiming that would give us cause to call him an idiot and refute his word in kind as fallible garbage

Nasu creates the setting, reality however informs how we evaluate it if we want this hobby to work

If what he's saying fails to align with any kind of observation, his word is trash and discarded as such


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Jan 16, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, Nasu claiming that would give us cause to call him an idiot and refute his word in kind as fallible garbage
> 
> Nasu creates the setting, reality however informs how we evaluate it if we want this hobby to work
> 
> If what he's saying fails to align with any kind of observation, his word is trash and discarded as such



We can calc some aspects of a feat like distance,time and volume of destroyed material but if the author makes it so the character can nullify a x1000 his own strength trough technique that's just how it is simply because that would be the logic of his world.

 Same we wouldn't discard a 70kg character lifting a 1000 ton boulder with a finger or Superman moving a planet with a chain just because they shouldn't be able to do that even if they had the strength for it.

Trying to use reality to judge everything is only going to make things more complicated.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 16, 2018)

Stay on-topic people !! 



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was Amakusa Shirou still amped by the Holy Grail fighting Galvanism Sieg?


Yes..though he put a fuck-ton of energy into his NP and lost one hand so i  you can't reall say he was in tip-top condition.


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## Xhominid (Jan 16, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Maybe because EX rank would be something like "the real solution to this mystery doesn't matter, I will make my own theory the correct answer trough reality warping"



Yeah that was probably the intention but there have been weaker NPs that are EX rank for less.



reyatsuguy said:


> Stay on-topic people !!



Not really much to stay on topic for lol...
Scenario 1 primarily depends if Sieg can use Blasted Tree and Jeanne herself is a strong Servant physically otherwise it's very much down to the wire.

Scenario 2 is just a plain stomp in Sieg and Jeanne's favor because Shirou really cannot fight strong Servant type entities and I believe Gilgamesh was the exception due to his arrogance and lack of fighting ability with the weapons in his vault giving Shirou a massive edge.
And optimal Artoria is no match for Siegfried and his Anti-Dragon abilities and fighting skills. He's too much of her Anti-thesis. La Pucelle just makes it worse.


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 16, 2018)

Xhominid said:


> Not really much to stay on topic for lol


> 4 pages without reaching a consensus
> Not much to say...


Xhominid said:


> Scenario 1 primarily depends if Sieg can use Blasted Tree


He can...


Xhominid said:


> Jeanne herself is a strong Servant


They all are...


Xhominid said:


> Scenario 2 is just a plain stomp


Yeah...no...


Xhominid said:


> Shirou really cannot fight strong Servant


His feats dissagree..


Xhominid said:


> and I believe Gilgamesh was the exception due to his arrogance and lack of fighting ability with the weapons in his vault giving Shirou a massive edge.


Nope.. Shirou only won because he could fire shit in UBW faster than Gill could fire GOB


Xhominid said:


> And optimal Artoria is no match for Siegfried


Except her NP is superior and Siegfried is not really Siegfried. Sieg ,himself mentions that he drags down Siegfried's performance as a servant. The only thing Fake Siegfried has over the Servant Siegfried is the ability to fire Balmung in rapid succesion because of his galvanism recharge.
Also Avalon...
Also weakness on his back...
Anti-Dragon doesn't mean instant KO...


Xhominid said:


> La Pucelle just makes it worse.


Only if it hits..if it doesn't ...well, just look at her vs Amakusa.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 16, 2018)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> We can calc some aspects of a feat like distance,time and volume of destroyed material but if the author makes it so the character can nullify a x1000 his own strength trough technique that's just how it is simply because that would be the logic of his world.



Except that the logic of his world at least needs rudimentary grounding in our own given all of our comparisons are born from reality in the first place

Skill has an observably low ceiling, and variables that make it such are easy enough to observe

Asserting this claim without demonstrating how it can be observably true is asinine garbage, and easily discarded trash



> Same we wouldn't discard a 70kg character lifting a 1000 ton boulder with a finger or Superman moving a planet with a chain just because they shouldn't be able to do that even if they had the strength for it.



Not the same thing, Force and Energy don't have the low ceiling honing precision does inherent to skill

While humans are limited, the level of force able to be generated in fiction is still a phenomena theoretically possible at least in a mathematical sense

Skill on the other hand has no room to grow and can be demonstrably stagnant in comparison



reyatsuguy said:


> Stay on-topic people !!



Like I said, its not off-topic

Blame fuckers for wanking Karna (who is relevant to Sieg) beyond his weapons for the tangent *shrugs*



> Yes..though he put a fuck-ton of energy into his NP and lost one hand so i  you can't reall say he was in tip-top condition.



Would his baseline stats be be beyond his listed parameters?

Trying to get an idea of where Galvanism Sieg sits

Guess I could run with "somewhere around Frankenstein", but isn't his Blasted Tree weaker?


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## Qinglong (Jan 16, 2018)

his blasted Tree is likely not massively much weaker since it's supposed to have the potential to create "a second Frankenstein" but he probably doesn't get the plus modifiers.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 16, 2018)

Is it Karna’s regular strikes that are = to A rank NPs or his strikes with Mana burst activated?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 16, 2018)

Xhominid said:


> Scenario 1 primarily depends if Sieg can use Blasted Tree



Blasted Tree isn't killing anyone but Shirou, and that's not assured once he's employed his sword variant reinforcement that let him survive a strike from Gram



> and Jeanne herself is a strong Servant physically



She's not beyond anything one of Shirou's projections can let him reach in terms of striking power



> Shirou really cannot fight strong Servant type entities



>Has projections able to contend with Herakles even at his weakest in the Fate route
>Can't fight "strong servants"

They employ their NP, his life is going to suck, but raw stats he can hang with the best of them via his mimic bullshit powers

Nasu's kind of an idiot, Shirou's feats routinely contradict the notion he can't fight servants and Shirou's assertion he can't in UBW is asinine... and honestly a shallow assessment of his abilities.

The notion he can only fight Gil because their both owners as an argument is hot garbage. There's going to be variety in how skilled, powerful, or fast the Servant's he mimics with his degraded weapons are. The only way his assertion makes any particular sense is in a world where all servants are comparable to one another across the board and his degraded skills and stats don't let him keep up.



> and I believe Gilgamesh was the exception due to his arrogance and lack of fighting ability with the weapons in his vault giving Shirou a massive edge.



Gil lost because he was panicking and UBW has a faster rate of fire than GoB once deployed

Gil's also not unskilled, Shirou's assessment of Gil only being an owner is shallow, contrived, and requires the assumption everyone that's "mastered" one weapon is inherently superior to Gil in some capacity for their focus

This of course ignores everyone has a different ceiling on respective mastery of skill, strength, and speed, even in universe

That said, Shirou having the raw stats to fight Gil is totally in line with every other fight he's had with a Servant because he's a bullshit mimic



> And optimal Artoria is no match for Siegfried



Her NP, even without a full charge, is beyond FA Sieg's Balmung

Nor, even if the gap between tiers is small, possess her raw strength that compares to Herakles at her best



> and his Anti-Dragon abilities



Which is nice if he hits her, but is useless fluff for the purposes of our hobby because we can't differentiate between baseline Sieg and how hard he hits a dragon

Again, fucking Dragon Ball Super evaluates Jiren off of BoG Goku's feats still

Welcome to this hobby's hell, I didn't think I needed to remind everyone of this failing, but here we are



> and fighting skills



He has a vague and unhelpful accolade of transcending humanity or some shit

And skill has a low ceiling to start with

The end all of skill in Nasu due to the effects he achieved is Kojirou regardless



> La Pucelle just makes it worse.



She better actually hit her target, unlike in FA


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jan 16, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Is it Karna’s regular strikes that are = to A rank NPs or his strikes with Mana burst activated?



It really doesn't matter too much

The difference between strength tiers is pitifully small


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 16, 2018)

No. Thats VS that boosts his phisicall  phisicall  strikes to A.  With mana burst hes likely  in the A+ range


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## TYPE-Rey (Jan 16, 2018)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Like I said, its not off-topic
> 
> Blame fuckers for wanking Karna (who is relevant to Sieg) beyond his weapons for the tangent *shrugs*


Karna is somewhat relevant to Sieg. Tesla and the other fuckers aren't .


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## Qinglong (Jan 16, 2018)

This Gil is unskilled fanon needs to die

He might not be on the level of sword autists but he is skilled, just in that situation impeded by circumstances + arrogance

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GiveRobert20dollars (Jan 16, 2018)

Qinglong said:


> This Gil is unskilled fanon needs to die
> 
> He might not be on the level of sword autists but he is skilled, just in that situation impeded by circumstances + arrogance


Pretty much this

Reactions: Agree 2


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## CrossTheHorizon (Jan 16, 2018)

I thought the owner vs user thing was them being able to use their Noble Phantasms True Name Release while Gil just shoots them like bullets.

Shirou would be kinda screwed if Saber or Lancer just straight up nukes him.


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## John Wayne (Jan 16, 2018)

Except Gil can use their true name releases if he wants to, he just doesn't need to most of the time since his NP Rain can beat 90% of anything he'll face. That's why that whole fight is complete bullshit.


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## Qinglong (Jan 16, 2018)

There's no evidence he can do an actual true name release on anything but Ea. Everything else he's used has never required a true name release. And he straight up goes into melee in his first encounter in Fate.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 16, 2018)

He can use some of their abilities at the very least and its enough to keep Saber on the defensive when he switches shit up.

Look at his attack animations from CCC and Extella, hes got specific one’s he pulls out when in melee.


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