# Minato vs The Masters



## oiety (Jul 3, 2017)

Location: Masters vs Jins
Knowledge: Full for Minato, Rep for Masters
Distance: 20 meters
Mindset: IC
Intent: to kill.
Restrictions: None.
Stipulations: This is Alive Minato, so no Kurama.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 3, 2017)

Kakashi hides underground while 7G Gai blasts Minato away with Hirudora. Then Kamui snipes or raiton clone raikiries Minato if he is still barely alive and injured/disoriented by Hirudora.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2017)

Kakashi was Minato's stundent which means that Kakashi knows how much of a threat Minato is. Kamui GG so Kakashi can solo, adding in Gai makes this a stomp

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Minato destroys both of them. Mid difficult at most (I doubt it's even mid difficult tbh). 



Bonly said:


> Kamui GG so Kakashi can solo


Not when his Kamui is not as fast as Minato's movement without even FTG.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 2


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## LostSelf (Jul 3, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi was Minato's stundent which means that Kakashi knows how much of a threat Minato is. Kamui GG so Kakashi can solo, adding in Gai makes this a stomp



Let me remind you, that's exactly how you began with Katsuyu.

I wait for you here, to pat your back when you pass this door again, my dear Bonly .

But being honest, yeah. Make it the same escenario with Ei and Bee vs Minato.

Instead of a tentacle saving Gai, Minato is going to boxland.


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Not when his Kamui is not as fast as Minato's movement without even FTG.



Kamui is fast enough to GG everyone


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Let me remind you, that's exactly how you began with Katsuyu.
> 
> I wait for you here, to pat your back when you pass this door again, my dear Bonly .
> 
> ...



I have seen the light of Kamui gg when Kakashi knows of a threat

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Kamui is fast enough to GG everyone


Except Minato. 



Minato could stab Kakashi's eye with his Kunai before Kakashi could use Kamui.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## Serene Grace (Jul 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> raikiries Minato


His raikri got intercepted by Haku on two seperate occasions, and by Asura Path


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## Bonly (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Except Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> Minato could stab Kakashi's eye with his Kunai before Kakashi could use Kamui.



That doesn't show off Kamui GG therefore it must be an outliner

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Monty Burns (Jul 3, 2017)

Minato can redirect Hirudora back at Gai which could kill him/knock him out and then he can proceed to blitz Kakashi. Minato lower end of mid difficulty.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 3, 2017)

Cherry said:


> His raikri got intercepted by Haku on two seperate occasions, and by Asura Path





> *while 7G Gai blasts Minato away with Hirudora*. Then Kamui snipes or raiton clone raikiries Minato if *he is still barely alive and injured/disoriented by* *Hirudora*.





> *injured/disoriented by* *Hirudora*

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Jul 3, 2017)

It could go either way I believe n.n/

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Santoryu (Jul 3, 2017)

oiety said:


> Location: Masters vs Jins
> Knowledge: Full for Minato, Rep for Masters
> Distance: 20 meters
> Mindset: IC
> ...



It's pure insanity to advocate Minato's victory under these conditions. Knowledge can only get you so far when one of your opponent is capable of almost killing a _pseudo-god.
_

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> It's pure insanity to advocate Minato's victory under these conditions. Knowledge can only get you so far when one of your opponent is capable of almost killing a _pseudo-god.
> _



Did that "pseudo-god" (who was killed by a pile of glue) show something like this? U_U


Did not think so either. 
(8th Gates is not an Ic for the most part anyway, so there is that )


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Except Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> Minato could stab Kakashi's eye with his Kunai before Kakashi could use Kamui.



More meaningful if Kakashi was actually targetting Minato. Though, all you proved that a Kakashi who is mostly blind can't solo. Don't believe he's blind ITT.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> More meaningful if Kakashi was actually targetting Minato.


If Kakashi was targeting Minato his Kamui's speed will be faster? 
Yeah, did not think so either.


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## Santoryu (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> Did that "pseudo-god" (who was killed by a pile of glue) show something like this? U_U
> 
> 
> Did not think so either.
> (8th Gates is not an Ic for the most part anyway, so there is that )



It's not needed because they can win without it, but if the masters were going to die as you're claiming, he'd activate it.


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## Android (Jul 3, 2017)

Minato was whooping the asses of A and B, a team much superior to this.
These 2 children are going to get humiliated here, Minato puts them in baby diapers and sends them back to the academy 
Guiding Thunder redirects Hirudora back at them, then FCD and Hiraishin combo ends their lives.
And if one of them gets tagged, he uses Hiraishin Goshen Mawashi to troll them by switching places warping them at each others attacks.


Hussain said:


> If Kakashi was targeting Minato his Kamui's speed will be faster?
> Yeah, did not think so either.


Let's tag team this thread

Reactions: Like 2


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> It's not needed because they can win without it, but if the masters were going to die as you're claiming, he'd activate it.



Lol, no they stand no chance without it (frankly, even with it they will still lose since Gai can't hit Minato anyway).



> but if the masters were going to die as you're claiming, he'd activate it.


They were going to die against Obito, yet he did not. Even against the Bijuu (he attempted to, but he did not). 

But again, Gai can't hit Minato. Minato could simply teleport, drink a tea until Gai turn into ashes, come back to trash Kakashi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> If Kakashi was targeting Minato his Kamui's speed will be faster?
> Yeah, did not think so either.



If Kakashi wanted to target Minato, he probably would've got him, esp if he was closer (better his sight, the better Kamui is). Kakashi managed to warp BM Naruto to Kamui-land before Obito hit him with his Kamui. Minato was certain that a fast enough Kamui from a 14 year old Obito would get him, despite him having FTG. 

Kakashi did that to an older Obito who had the Rinnegan. 

If a Gated guy actually wanted to hit Minato, he would've. Remember, he was doing well against a Madara who wtfpwnd a version of Minato whose reflexes were a rapidly enhanced ones of the Minato ITT.

The masters stand a chance.


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## Serene Grace (Jul 3, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Let's tag team this thread


Triple team?

Kakashi can never hope for a warp if Obito couldn't even warp Minato, Minato also has knowledge on both the gates and Kamui. The former of which he can utilize his S/T barrier to send it back to him, and the latter he can FTG out of at almost anytime. They aren't "catching him off guard" also Raikiri is never touching Minato.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Geralt-Singh (Jul 3, 2017)

Masters probably win around mid diff.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Kakashi wanted to target Minato, he probably would've got him,


That's not what the manga showed. 
and it was in Kakashi's best interest to use it to its full potential to try to get Obito. 



> If a Gated guy actually wanted to hit Minato, he would've


That's not what the manga showed either. 
Minato teleported twice before Gai could move an inch.
What happened to him against Asspulldara was AFTER FTG, when Minato tried to attack him PHYSICALLY.
Yes, if Minato tried to attack 8th Gate Gai, he will get countered. 



> The masters stand a chance.


No, they don't stand a chance. Minato took on a much stronger tag-team, and they couldn't come on top. Let alone Kakashi and Gai.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> That's not what the manga showed.
> and it was in Kakashi's best interest to use it to its full potential to try to get Obito.



The manga never showed Kakashi trying to get Minato. 

You didn't pay attention to the emphasis on how fast Kakashi used Kamui, obviously.



> That's not what the manga showed either.
> Minato teleported twice before Gai could move an inch.
> What happened to him against Asspulldara was AFTER FTG, when Minato tried to attack him PHYSICALLY.
> Yes, if Minato tried to attack 8th Gate Gai, he will get countered.



The manga didn't show Gai aiming to hit Minato. 

"Asspulldara" still owned a superior Minato who couldn't react. And you're trying to tell us Minato can react to the guy reacting to "Asspulldara".

The manga showed an enhanced Minato getting wtfowned by someone Gai was able to keep up with. Your stance is questionable at best.



> No, they don't stand a chance. Minato took on a much stronger tag-team, and they couldn't come on top. Let alone Kakashi and Gai.



Ay charged in. Bee just used a tentacle to protect Ay. Ay tries to charge towards Minato. Minato is behind Bee.

You're comparing those two to a team that consists of:
- Someone who managed to not get wtfpwned by Juubidara, unlike Minato.
- Someone who managed to use Kamui faster than a stronger Obito actually trying with Kamui, unlike Minato.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2017)

Minato wins mid diff. 
The manga showed us multiple times that a strong Kage can handle and beat multiple weaker Kage level characters and I bet Kakashi and Gai, even War Arc incarnations, aren't strong enough to be considered "Mid-Kage fighters". 
In other words, they stand no chance against the strongest Kage after Naruto and Hashirama.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga never showed Kakashi trying to get Minato.
> 
> You didn't pay attention to the emphasis on how fast Kakashi used Kamui, obviously.



It does not have 2. 
the manga did not show the Hokage trying to get Minato either. Does not change the fact that he was faster than them, does it? 

In a race, do the racers try to catch each other, or do they try to reach the end-line?  



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The manga didn't show Gai aiming to hit Minato.
> 
> "Asspulldara" still owned a superior Minato who couldn't react. And you're trying to tell us Minato can react to the guy reacting to "Asspulldara".
> 
> The manga showed an enhanced Minato getting wtfowned by someone Gai was able to keep up with. Your stance is questionable at best.



- It does not change anything either. If he was planning to "hit" Minato, is he going to gain more speed or something? He was at his fastest speed at the time. 

- Perhaps if you use that amazing thing called "brain" you would have understood? 
I have already spilled it out to you. Minato's PHYSICAL speed =/= FTG. Minato reacted to Gai with his FTG. Where against Asspulldara
he used his physical speed. Crazy, I know. 

- And the manga showed Minato reacted to Gai, what's your point? You are getting salty? 




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ay charged in. Bee just used a tentacle to protect Ay. Ay tries to charge towards Minato. Minato is behind Bee.
> 
> You're comparing those two to a team that consists of:
> - Someone who managed to not get wtfpwned by Juubidara, unlike Minato.
> - Someone who managed to use Kamui faster than a stronger Obito actually trying with Kamui, unlike Minato.






What does "stronger" Obito have to do with anything? His Kamui did not change.
Oh, and that Obito couldn't even use teleportation because of the Gedu-Dama attack. Unlike Minato.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 3, 2017)

Using low end feats when he is near blind on that eye doesn't change the fact that he teleported Madara's shield before Gai moved much and the fact that he already defeated instant teleportation with Kamui, which is how Minato's Hiraishin works.

His long range Kamui warped a dimensional void itself in dms mode(when he saved Naruto from the ash bones) so it makes sense why Kuchiyose couldn't warp the gedo mazo away without losing a limb to Kamui instead of teleporting it intact. Kuchiyose teleports the user using a dimensional void and the DB states that hiraishin works on the same principles. 

Without mentioning that a smaller head sized Kamui snipe or even to the torso would also kill him and it would be faster than a full body Kamui.

With lighting clones and 7G gai here, I don't see why it won't be happening. 

7 gate Gai makes Minato in cqc look like a chump and he can detonate Hirudora at any time, preventing minato from warping it away in it's compressed state.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

Lol, "low end feats" What are his "high end feats" exactly? 

Minato's FTG was shown to be superior to Kamui at every time they clashed or shown next to each other.

1- Obito tried to Kamui Minato = Minato teleported before he could do that.
2- Obito tried to get Minato again = Minato teleported on top of him and wiped the floor with him.
3- Kakashi tried to use Kamui on Obito = Minato throws the Kunai, entered SM, and teleported with a Rasengan before Kakashi could do anything.
4- Obito tried to use Kamui, but Gedu-Dama was too fast for him. Yet, when those Gedu Dama used against Gai, Minato dealt with them easily.

At no point was Kamui shown to be superior to Minato's FTG. 

You people are delusional.

Reactions: Like 7


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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2017)

I'm starting to believe the masters are the most overrated characters after Bee.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Hussain said:


> It does not have 2.
> the manga did not show the Hokage trying to get Minato either. Does not change the fact that he was faster than them, does it?
> 
> In a race, do the racers try to catch each other, or do they try to reach the end-line?



In that example, it was established Minato got there faster. Though, we've got a page where Obito/Minato admit a 14 year old's Kamui can finish Minato.



> - It does not change anything either. If he was planning to "hit" Minato, is he going to gain more speed or something? He was at his fastest speed at the time.
> 
> - Perhaps if you use that amazing thing called "brain" you would have understood?
> I have already spilled it out to you. Minato's PHYSICAL speed =/= FTG. Minato reacted to Gai with his FTG. Where against Asspulldara
> ...



That's nice, but Gai still wasn't going to hit his comrade. Gai also managed to fight a guy who casually owned a superior Minato. That fact remains. 



> What does "stronger" Obito have to do with anything? His Kamui did not change.
> Oh, and that Obito couldn't even use teleportation because of the Gedu-Dama attack. Unlike Minato.



I know Minato wasn't in those chapters, but it doesn't mean you skip them! 

Stronger Obito = stronger jutsu = more experience. Kamui uses chakra, when he transplanted the Rinnegan he got stronger chakra. Just because it suggests Minato faced a weaker Obito, it doesn't make it invalid.

But Minato admitted a Kamui could finish him off. That itself finishes your case.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 3, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> With lighting clones and 7G gai here, I don't see why it won't be happening.
> 
> 7 gate Gai makes Minato in cqc look like a chump and he can detonate Hirudora at any time, preventing minato from warping it away in it's compressed state.


Why would Minato have trouble with 7G Guy and Kakashi when he was casually outmaneuvering Ay and Bee while giving them life lessons. A duo stronger, faster, and more powerful than these 2? Also, why would Minato have trouble warping away Hirudora when we've seen him warp TBBs which is far far stronger than Hirudora?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> Why would Minato have trouble with 7G Guy and Kakashi when he was casually outmaneuvering Ay and Bee while giving them life lessons. A duo stronger, faster, and more powerful than these 2? Also, why would Minato have trouble warping away Hirudora when we've seen him warp TBBs which is far far stronger than Hirudora?



Minato with an enhancement got owned by Juubidara: 7G Gai didn't suffer the same with Juubidara.
Minato admitted he could lose to Kamui: Kakashi used his Kamui faster than a stronger version of the one Minato would've lost to.

He can warp Hirudora, though, chances are while he's doing that, Gai would already have landed a couple of hits. While Minato is focusing on Gai, Kakashi could neg diff him with Kamui. The same way he was easily teleporting KCM Naruto's attacks... unless you're going to be saying base Minato is faster than KCM Naruto.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato admitted he could lose to Kamui: Kakashi used his Kamui faster than a stronger version of the one Minato would've lost to.


A blindside Kamui didn't work on Minato. Obito's second attempt didn't work either. Minato admitted Kamui can finish him off, but it ended up with Obito getting floored. Minato also threw a Kunai, entered Sage Mode, appeared with a Rasengan, all before Kakashi could activate Kamui. Yet all of a sudden Kakashi can snipe Minato with Kamui now? Weather or not he was aiming for Minato is irrelevant.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He can warp Hirudora, though, chances are while he's doing that, Gai would already have landed a couple of hits. While Minato is focusing on Gai, Kakashi could neg diff him with Kamui.


Clones? 1 Clone blitzes Kakashi while Minato redirects Gai's Hirudora at his face.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 3, 2017)

Monty Burns said:


> A blindside Kamui didn't work on Minato. Obito's second attempt didn't work either. Minato admitted Kamui can finish him off, but it ended up with Obito getting floored. Minato also threw a Kunai, entered Sage Mode, appeared with a Rasengan, all before Kakashi could activate Kamui. Yet all of a sudden Kakashi can snipe Minato with Kamui now? Weather or not he was aiming for Minato is irrelevant.



The second attempt didn't work because Obito didn't catch him. Minato admitted it would be over if Obito _did _catch him. Kakashi was more or less blind, did you miss the parts where they were supporting Gai? Prior his blindness, he was countering a stronger Obito's all out Kamui... the same thing Minato admitted would finish him off.




> Clones? 1 Clone blitzes Kakashi while Minato redirects Gai's Hirudora at his face.



What stops Kakashi from making his own clones? You're going to have to do some serious convincing to say Gai won't be able to react to Minato seeing as Gai was fighting well against Juubidara who Minato in SM couldn't even touch.


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## Trojan (Jul 3, 2017)

>Munboy's "argument" 
>

Reactions: Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 3, 2017)

Giovanni > All other bosses wannabe combined.

Except Archie and Maxie. Those are awesome.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Monty Burns (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Prior his blindness, he was countering a stronger Obito's all out Kamui... the same thing Minato admitted would finish him off.


Minato never admitted it would finish him off though, he just said it exceeds his ST technique if IIRC. Besides, this doesn't change the fact that Minato floored Obito. Minato reacted to TSBs with ease while double Kamui barely warped it away. I'm not sure on what basis Kamui had gotten faster, but given that double Kamui barely out-sped the TSBs, I'm going to assume otherwise.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're going to have to do some serious convincing to say Gai won't be able to react to Minato seeing as Gai was fighting well against Juubidara


That's like saying Konan did well against Obito, therefore she can do well against Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Gai. ABC logic doesn't work here. Just because Gai did well against JJ Madara does not mean he'll do well against Minato.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> What stops Kakashi from making his own clones?


And do what with them exactly? Kakashi cannot touch Minato in anyway shape or form.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 3, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Minato with an enhancement got owned by Juubidara: 7G Gai didn't suffer the same with Juubidara.
> Minato admitted he could lose to Kamui: Kakashi used his Kamui faster than a stronger version of the one Minato would've lost to.
> 
> He can warp Hirudora, though, chances are while he's doing that, Gai would already have landed a couple of hits. While Minato is focusing on Gai, Kakashi could neg diff him with Kamui. The same way he was easily teleporting KCM Naruto's attacks... unless you're going to be saying base Minato is faster than KCM Naruto.


When did JJ Madara try to hit Gai?
I thought he was clearly just trying to see how far the red steam could go?
He straight up dissed the 7g.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Gohara (Jul 4, 2017)

Minato wins with a lot of difficulty possibly unless Kakashi and Gai have the top strategies and Gai uses 8th Gate in my opinion.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

I made Hussain mad (again). 



Monty Burns said:


> Minato never admitted it would finish him off though, he just said it exceeds his ST technique if IIRC. Besides, this doesn't change the fact that Minato floored Obito. Minato reacted to TSBs with ease while double Kamui barely warped it away. I'm not sure on what basis Kamui had gotten faster, but given that double Kamui barely out-sped the TSBs, I'm going to assume otherwise.



He said their battle's outcome would be determined by who moves faster i.e. if Obito caught Minato first, Obito wins. What do you think Kabuto was going to use?

Ease? When Minato was targeted he did not react hence he lost an arm. Kamui getting faster? Well, Kamui would need to be faster than used on Minato if Minato felt he'd be finished if he was grabbed a second time.



> That's like saying Konan did well against Obito, therefore she can do well against Naruto, Bee, Kakashi, and Gai. ABC logic doesn't work here. Just because Gai did well against JJ Madara does not mean he'll do well against Minato.



Minato with an enhancement couldn't physically react to JJ Madara, Gai did. Unless you want to be saying Minato moves on JJ Madara's level? We got a guy who says Kisame has JJ Madara's reflexes, will you be the guy who says Minato speed = JJ Madara?



> And do what with them exactly? Kakashi cannot touch Minato in anyway shape or form.



Except he can use a Kamui faster than Obito's Kamui. The latter's Kamui was capable of taking Minato out when he was 14. If Minato's going to be focusing on the guy he can't react to, Kakashi will have a good shit.



Hi no Ishi said:


> When did JJ Madara try to hit Gai?
> I thought he was clearly just trying to see how far the red steam could go?
> He straight up dissed the 7g.



JJ Madara fought with 7 Gated Gai for a bit (before Lee saved him) before Gai used the 8th Gate. JJ Madara beat 7G, but 7G was at least able to make Madara try a little bit unlike Minato's super reflexes with Senjutsu steroids.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I made Hussain mad (again).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He ran up on Madara, and could not land a blow, he impressed everyone with his awesome speed and agility, Madara just slid back slammed AT in Gais face, and the one time Madara actually attacks Gai has to be saved.

This is around the area where the quotation appears.

Then Kakashi says Taijutsu doesn't work either. 
The only person who gave JJ Madara trouble before the kids was Obito


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He ran up on Madara, and could not land a blow, he impressed everyone with his awesome speed and agility, Madara just slid back slammed AT in Gais face, and the one time Madara actually attacks Gai has to be saved.
> 
> a non-cloaked KN0 makes his Rasengan many times stronger
> 
> ...



Madara still had to react to Gai and had to try, only a little. That is a lot more than what happened with an enhanced Minato. Taijutsu of the 7G level won't work on Juubidara... 8G did. Though 8G is overkill for Minaot, 7G plus Kakashi should be enough.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> He ran up on Madara, and could not land a blow, he impressed everyone with his awesome speed and agility, Madara just slid back slammed AT in Gais face, and the one time Madara actually attacks Gai has to be saved.
> 
> create openings for himself with literally simple stuff being a small summoning
> 
> ...



Might Gai pushed Madara back with his attack.

Minato got rolf lol negged in one swift move by the same Madara, that shows the difference in Taijutsu between Minato and Gai.

If Minato could attempt a cqc encounter against Gai just to get rekked. No use to having Kunais to teleport around if you can't do shit to your target.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 4, 2017)

Lol you are all assuming Minato would engage in CQC with 7G Gai. Minato could throw a dozen Kunai and keep his distance. If he attempts Hirudora, it'll just get redirected right back at him. Furthermore Kamui warp isn't happening considering Minato (with no arms) could react to JJ Madara's TSBs before double Kamui could even activate. This Minato also warped away the TSBs before they could even damage his body, the same TSBs that double Kamui barely out-sped. Kakashi's Kamui isn't doing jack.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Madara still had to react to Gai and had to try, only a little. That is a lot more than what happened with an enhanced Minato. Taijutsu of the 7G level won't work on Juubidara... 8G did. Though 8G is overkill for Minaot, 7G plus Kakashi should be enough.


8g Gai is a whole different story altogether. A thing Madara had never seen before. 
"Now that I see it... it looks like... etc" from chap 668
The Greater Internet F***wad Theory
Which is why Madara diddnt Limbo /TSB/slap/fart at Gai. 
He let him realize that wasn't gonna work and then when he did counter Gai had to be saved. 
Unlike where he was throwing TSBs  cutting off arms and trying to get his eye back while unwilling to use Limbo because Obito might see it.
The Greater Internet F***wad Theory
Not because Gai isn't great.
Not because Minato is somehow slow.
Because even with a power "Tens of times greater than the Gokage" (aka much greater than just 7g.)  Madara was just having fun.The Greater Internet F***wad Theory

Because JJ Madara was just fooling around with Gai until the Night Gai happened. 

Kamui has in cannon lost to FTG and Minato actually has experience fighting Kamui, but the masters don't have experience fighting FTG. They need to stay full pressure all the time to keep up with the speed of a dude who can dodge 8th gate Gai.

Kakashi also can't move well if he misses a Kamui Snipe and being a sitting duck is a bad idea against Minato.

85/15 Minato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 8g Gai is a whole different story altogether. A thing Madara had never seen before.
> "Now that I see it... it looks like... etc" from chap 668
> The Greater Internet F***wad Theory
> Which is why Madara diddnt Limbo /TSB/slap/fart at Gai.
> ...



You're not getting the point:

> JJ Madara didn't try with Minato or Gai
> JJ Madara didn't try at all against Minato
> JJ Madara had to try a little with Gai
> 7G Gai took more effort to deal with than SM Minato

Kakashi can't move... what happened in the battle with Obito?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're not getting the point:
> 
> > JJ Madara didn't try with Minato or Gai
> > JJ Madara didn't try at all against Minato
> ...


Sorry my friend but I do understand your point.
I'm saying your comparison is somewhat skewed though.
Madara wanted to get his eye back and actually fought Minato and company
With Gai he just wanted him to use the red steam so he never bothered counter attacking unlike before.

Further more he had even more options in the second situation as his Limbo no longer needed to be hidden.
He merely chose to joke around with one of them but not the other.

As for Kakashi do you mean vs Obito where he camped out on the eight tails sniping, and passed out on his face when he actually did Kamui while moving?

Or vs Obito in boxland after he has received the Naruto/Kurama chakra boost that was stated to stay even when the cloak wasn't visable, and buffed the heck out of Kakashi by his own admission?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Sorry my friend but I do understand your point.
> I'm saying your comparison is somewhat skewed though.
> Madara wanted to get his eye back and actually fought Minato and company
> With Gai he just wanted him to use the red steam so he never bothered counter attacking unlike before.
> ...



Let's try another appeoach, Madara wants to get through Gai to get his eye back, what's he going to do? Limbo? Limbo means he actually had to try more than he did against Minato. 

Why does he need to camp? He act using Kamui a few times while on the move.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Let's try another appeoach, Madara wants to get through Gai to get his eye back, what's he going to do? Limbo? Limbo means he actually had to try more than he did against Minato.



His eye was in boxland at that point actually.
And he specifically thought about using limbo and why he wasn't in chapter 666 like I posted earlier.

The main difference in our argument is your insistence that Madara had to let Gai attack as opposed to him not having any real threats around and just playing with Gai.
Since he clearly was doing just that very thing and later stated that he was playing around I disagree


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why does he need to camp? He act using Kamui a few times while on the move.




When did he move and Kamui when not on dat crack?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> His eye was in boxland at that point actually.
> And he specifically thought about using limbo and why he wasn't in chapter 666 like I posted earlier.
> 
> The main difference in our argument is your insistence that Madara had to let Gai attack as opposed to him not having any real threats around and just playing with Gai.
> Since he clearly was doing just that very thing and later stated that he was playing around I disagree




Like I asked, lets assume Madara decided he had to go through Gai. What would he do different?
Initially you said Limbo, but that still counts as requiring more effort than he used for Minato.



> When did he move and Kamui when not on dat crack?



Be was on the move when he teleported the kunai away from Naruto and he was on the move when he teleported BM Naruto to Kamui-land.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Like I asked, lets assume Madara decided he had to go through Gai. What would he do different?
> Initially you said Limbo, but that still counts as requiring more effort than he used for Minato.
> 
> 
> ...


In the hypothetical your asking about he could have stood there and blocked with his staff easily. 

In your first Kakashi example it was while he was being thrown not while he was moving under his own power and he just stood still after he landed.

In your second he fell flat on his face immediately after he warped Naruto and couldnt move which proves my point even further.

Do you see what I'm saying?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> In the hypothetical your asking about he could have stood there and blocked with his staff easily.
> 
> In your first Kakashi example it was while he was being thrown not while he was moving under his own power and he just stood still after he landed.
> 
> ...



If he could block with his staff easily, why was he pushed back?

It shows that Kakashi doesn't need to camp and fire. The second example was after he used a lot of Kamui in a row. I doubt he'll be doing that ITT.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If he could block with his staff easily, why was he pushed back?
> 
> It shows that Kakashi doesn't need to camp and fire. The second example was after he used a lot of Kamui in a row. I doubt he'll be doing that ITT.



You know why Madara did what he did, you've seen the scans and I've repeated myself ad nauseum.
Nothing was stopping him from holding his staff out.
Let's not go in circles.

You also know that Kakashi has repeatedly made statements to the fact that he can't move well after Kamui, such as when he warped Sasuke's arrows and could could barely move after, or when he first tries to snipe Obito he ask Sakura to take care of his body.

You cant actually ignore what he has said about it himself.

It's also why he never uses it in a one on one like vs the seven swordsmen, or deva path, even though as we see vs Deva his precision is fine enough to snipe nails.

Until you have a scan of him using Kamui and moving about easily you haven't a leg to stand on.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 4, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You know why Madara did what he did, you've seen the scans and I've repeated myself ad nauseum.
> Nothing was stopping him from holding his staff out.
> Let's not go in circles.




I'm saying there is a chance he just couldn't at the time because Gai caught him off-guard. When he was on guard he used the staff.



> You also know that Kakashi has repeatedly made statements to the fact that he can't move well after Kamui, such as when he warped Sasuke's arrows and could could barely move after, or when he first tries to snipe Obito he ask Sakura to take care of his body.



When was the bit with Sakura?

With Sasuke, that's true. However it seemed he improved by the war arc. 


> You cant actually ignore what he has said about it himself.



I can't ignore him showing signs of improvement since the statement though.



> It's also why he never uses it in a one on one like vs the seven swordsmen, or deva path, even though as we see vs Deva his precision is fine enough to snipe nails.
> 
> Until you have a scan of him using Kamui and moving about easily you haven't a leg to stand on.



It looked like he didn't feel pressured enough to use it against the swordsmen. Deva Path, he probably was going to do it if he was pushed enough - like he planned with Kakuzu.

We literally saw him spam Kamui in the war arc. What more would you like?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 4, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm saying there is a chance he just couldn't at the time because Gai caught him off-guard. When he was on guard he used the staff.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Multipost socks on my phone so I'm gonna number it.

1) That it happened and why it happened are different things answer you are ignoring why he didn't bother guarding.
"There's a chance..." etc doesn't mean Gai did better against JJ Mads in the same situation. It wasn't.

2) after Tobi and Zetsu showed up to help Sasuke he tries to snipe Obito in chapter 487

3) he nearly died against Zabuza, and would have had access to heals at the end of his fight so no reason not to use it except it being a bad idea.

4) What more do I want? 
You have not shown a single scan or instance  of him using it and moving properly afterwards.
Of course he can use it, that clearly has never been in dispute. He has never been shown not to be a sitting duck after using it though.
Except on that crack.

There is no sign that that facet of Kamui changes for him in the war.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 5, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Multipost socks on my phone so I'm gonna number it.
> 
> 1) That it happened and why it happened are different things answer you are ignoring why he didn't bother guarding.
> "There's a chance..." etc doesn't mean Gai did better against JJ Mads in the same situation. It wasn't.




Both got JJ off-guard, Gai did better.




> You have not shown a single scan or instance  of him using it and moving properly afterwards.
> Of course he can use it, that clearly has never been in dispute. He has never been shown not to be a sitting duck after using it though.
> Except on that crack.
> 
> There is no sign that that facet of Kamui changes for him in the war.


I'm assuming you read the war arc...[/quote][/QUOTE]


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

People say Madara could block EE First step with his staff, thus he COULD have with 7th Gated Gai thus instantly killing him.

Did no one take into consideration that Gai's 7th Gated speed is a bit better than just the first step of EE? Nothing contradicts that fact and it's evident in the manga. It also further reinforces Gaara's shock at someone moving so fast even though his seen fast people before.

You guys are making up JJ Madara's thought process from nothing. In fact Madara taking it easy on 7th Gated Gai directly contradicts his state of mind when he thought he was being underestimated!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> Did no one take into consideration* that Gai's 7th Gated speed is a bit better than just the first step of EE?* Nothing contradicts that fact and it's evident in the manga. It also further reinforces Gaara's shock at someone moving so fast even though his seen fast people before.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


>


I know right. People are just going to laugh. Go ahead. But I bet you can't find any contradictory feats or remarks that makes Gai's 7th Speed slower than first step EE. The only way to counter me is through trying to diminish my post and belittle it with no arguement.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Both got JJ off-guard, Gai did better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE][/QUOTE]

If you ignore the manga and context and statements for the sake of argument then sure he did.


And sir, you clearly haven't read the manga.
Your argument has no factual basis.
You assumed a thing about Kakashi and the manga says youre wrong, and that there's no evidence that you're right, but still you carry on as if that wasn't the case.

Evidence >> opinion.

Provide proof of your statements or let go of em.

And no conjecture isn't evidence.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> I know right. Peopke just going to laugh. Go ahead. But I bet you can't find any contradictory feats or remarks that makes Gai's 7th Speed slower than First step EE. The only way to counter me is through trying to diminish my post and belittle it with no arguement.


1)Base Minato physically reacted to 5th step Sekizou (he catched the Kunai with his mouth).
2)JJ Madara fodderized SM Minato thanks to his insane reactions
3)JJ Madara couldn't react to 1st step Sekizou 

Then :
1)JJ Madara* was serious and *could barey handle 7G Gai Taijutsu + Hirudora
2)Kisame physically reacted to Hirudora.
3)Kisame can't see KCM Naruto's moves.
4)KCM Naruto < Base Minato in speed
5)JJ Madara easily reactedd to SM Minato's Hiraishin

C/C : no contradictory feats


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## TheGreen1 (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> 1)Base Minato physically reacted to 5th step Sekizou (he catched the Kunai with his mouth).
> 2)JJ Madara fodderized SM Minato thanks to his insane reactions
> 3)JJ Madara couldn't react to 1st step Sekizou
> 
> ...



Wait, you're saying KCM Naruto is worse than Minato in speed? 

Yeah, throwing away your entire argument here.


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> 1)Base Minato physically reacted to 5th step Sekizou (he catched the Kunai with his mouth).
> 2)JJ Madara fodderized SM Minato thanks to his insane reactions
> 3)JJ Madara couldn't react to 1st step Sekizou
> 
> ...


Yuck.

Madara couldn't do jack shit to 2nd 3rd or 4th step.

Remember how he got hit multiple times. Somehow he could react and erect a massive black sphere around him on Gai's 5th Step. That just means between the 4th and 5th step, Gai slowed down for Minato. I prove this because Madara was able to create a defence between the 4th and 5th step when he couldn't for 2, 3 or 4. There goes that argument you had.

Second, Gai and Kisame launched their attacks perfectly in sync. The thing that you somehow completely don't understand, is Hirudora has to travel in water against a massive current and Sharks, one that is moving that current against Hirudora.

Lastly, Hirudora  movement speed is NOT what we are discussing. We are discussing Gai's A to B movement speed. How you managed to forget that?

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

TheGreen1 said:


> Wait, you're saying KCM Naruto is worse than Minato in speed?
> 
> Yeah, throwing away your entire argument here.


KCM Naruto was always slower than Base Minato.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> Yuck.
> 
> Madara couldn't do jack shit to 2nd 3rd or 4th step.
> 
> Remember how he got hit multiple times. Somehow he could react and erect a massive black sphere around him on Gai's 5th Step. That just means between the 4th and 5th step, Gai slowed down for Minato. I prove this because Madara was able to create a defence between the 4th and 5th step when he couldn't for 2, 3 or 4. There goes that argument you had.


Madara physically reacted to 1st step Sekizou, this is a fact and 1st step Sekizou is obviously far faster, at a whole another level than Hirudora.



> Second, Gai and Kisame launched their attacks perfectly in sync. The thing that you somehow completely don't understand, is Hirudora has to travel in water against a massive current and Sharks, one that is moving that current against Hirudora.


There is no perft sync in 1 on 1 battle, if Gai was fast enough Kisame won't have the time to do anything. Moreover, Kisame was already reacting and making Daikoudan when Gai was launching Hiruodra  wich means Kisame can easily react to 7G Gai.



> Lastly, Hirudora  movement speed is NOT what we are discussing. We are discussing Gai's A to B movement speed. How you managed to forget that?


They're related, Minato's reactions are two times higher than point blank 5th step Sekizou and A is portrayed being close to Minato is speed which means A is many leagues above 7G Gai in speed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jul 5, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> If you ignore the manga and context and statements for the sake of argument then sure he did.




Except Gai actually did better when he got JJ off-guard. We literally saw it. We saw Minato getting someone off-guard by literally teleporting to him... he got owned.



> And sir, you clearly haven't read the manga.
> Your argument has no factual basis.
> You assumed a thing about Kakashi and the manga says youre wrong, and that there's no evidence that you're right, but still you carry on as if that wasn't the case.
> 
> ...



Kakashi's conduct in the war arc, esp against Juubito which show his best showings, is evidence enough. He even managed to get the Gedo Mazo as it was being summoned. Obito, the original user was amazed at the speed Kakashi used his Kamui on BM Naruto... in a scenario where Kakashi was on the move. 

You can't get stronger evidence than that. Especially as we've seen Kakashi improve with Kamui since the beginning.


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## Santoryu (Jul 5, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Giovanni > All other bosses wannabe combined.
> 
> Except Archie and Maxie. Those are awesome.



Sycamore is best Professor 

After Oak

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Sycamore is best Professor
> 
> After Oak



Those are facts @Hussain refuses to accept.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Madara physically reacted to 1st step Sekizou, this is a fact and 1st step Sekizou is obviously far faster, at a whole another level than Hirudora.
> 
> 
> There is no perft sync in 1 on 1 battle, if Gai was fast enough Kisame won't have the time to do anything. Moreover, Kisame was already reacting and making Daikoudan when Gai was launching Hiruodra  wich means Kisame can easily react to 7G Gai.
> ...


Why do you keep bringing up Hiurdora. Dude, I am talking about Gai's movement speed  - not Hiurdora's travel speed.

And I mentioned 7th Gated Gai's movement speed being faster than First EE because Madara was able to gaurd with his Staff yet couldn't do jack with his staff against Gai - at a further travelling distance. Also, if Madara could easily kill Gai so quickly why didn't he swing his staff on Gai's Hirudora symbol not AFTER Hirudora came out. In fact why didn't he do it the moment Gai got in his face like Minato did. Oh that's right he was "testing him" - yeah with what evidence sid you base that on? A dream you had.

Stop talking about Hirudora travel speed! Lol


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> Why do you keep bringing up Hiurdora. Dude, I am talking about Gai's movement speed  - not Hiurdora's travel speed.


Hirudora by definition is a super fast punch, much faster than any one else, whihc means it's a physical move and Kisame "physically" reacted to the Hirudora "punch" in *the forming process*.



> And I mentioned 7th Gated Gai's movement speed being faster than First EE because Madara was able to gaurd with his Staff yet couldn't do jack with his staff against Gai - at a further travelling distance. Also, if Madara could easily kill Gai so quickly why didn't he swing his staff on Gai's Hirudora symbol not AFTER Hirudora came out. In fact why didn't he do it the moment Gai got in his face like Minato did. Oh that's right he was "testing him" - yeah with what evidence sid you base that on? A dream you had.


1)Minato physicaly reacted to 5th step Sekizou which is >>>> Hirudora in speed.
2)JJ Madara "easily" physically reacted to Sekizou, Gai's fastest punch, point blank (which means he could trash 7G Gai whenever he wants + he wasn't serious at all against 7G Gai's basic Taijutsu).
3)JJ Madara reacted "with dififculty" to the first Sekizou.


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Hirudora by definition is a super fast punch, much faster than any one else, whihc means it's a physical move and Kisame "physically" reacted to the Hirudora "punch" in *the forming process*.
> 
> 
> 1)Minato physicaly reacted to 5th step Sekizou which is >>>> Hirudora in speed.
> ...


Kisame reacted to Hirudora forming process? What are you on about. How does that mean anything? Your argument is confusing as shit. Kisame reacted to seeing a Tiger? What panel you talking about.

I proved to you why Gai slowed down. It's the same reason Lee could throw a Kunai faster than 8th Gated Gai and why Gaara sand caught up to him. It's the same reason Madara could turtle up in his Black sphere but couldn't in 2, 3 or 4 steps. Stop saying Minato >>>> 5th Step when you clearly got nothing to prove it. And it's more like Lee >>> 5th Step since he threw the Kunai.

Madara not "serious", well he couldn't take out Gai like he did Minato nor could he do anything to him until he had a buffer of space between Hiurdora and Gai.


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## Bonly (Jul 5, 2017)

Santoryu said:


> Sycamore is best Professor
> 
> After Oak



Better then Kukui? I think not


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> Kisame reacted to Hirudora forming process? What are you on about. How does that mean anything? Your argument is confusing as shit. Kisame reacted to seeing a Tiger? What panel you talking about.
> 
> I proved to you why Gai slowed down. It's the same reason Lee could throw a Kunai faster than 8th Gated Gai and why Gaara sand caught up to him. It's the same reason Madara could turtle up in his Black sphere but couldn't in 2, 3 or 4 steps. Stop saying Minato >>>> 5th Step when you clearly got nothing to prove it. And it's more like Lee >>> 5th Step since he threw the Kunai.
> 
> Madara not "serious", well he couldn't take out Gai like he did Minato nor could he do anything to him until he had a buffer of space between Hiurdora and Gai.


Kisame was forming Daikoudan whilst Gai was in the middle of his fastest punch. Wich means Kisame = 7G Gai fastest speed.



> I proved to you why Gai slowed down. It's the same reason Lee could throw a Kunai faster than 8th Gated Gai and why Gaara sand caught up to him. It's the same reason Madara could turtle up in his Black sphere but couldn't in 2, 3 or 4 steps. Stop saying Minato >>>> 5th Step when you clearly got nothing to prove it. And it's more like Lee >>> 5th Step since he threw the Kunai.


I never said feats are consistant, you said feats are consistant and there is nothing to suggest the other way arroud. And here you came with the perfect counterexample.
Yes going by feats, 6G Lee Kunai through is faster than 5th step Sekizou and it's not my problem if Kishi doesn't give a shit to his manga's consistancy.


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## LostSelf (Jul 5, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Better then Kukui? I think not



Professor Ivy gets an honorable mention.

We don't know what the hell she did to Brock, yet .


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## Jad (Jul 5, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Kisame was forming Daikoudan whilst Gai was in the middle of his fastest punch. Wich means Kisame = 7G Gai fastest speed.
> 
> 
> I never said feats are consistant, you said feats are consistant and there is nothing to suggest the other way arroud. And here you came with the perfect counterexample.
> Yes going by feats, 6G Lee Kunai through is faster than 5th step Sekizou and it's not my problem if Kishi doesn't give a shit to his manga's consistancy.


Nah. Gai already created Hirudora the moment the tiger was created.

Kisame was forming Daikoudan (on mobile)

So EVERYTHING else except Minato's feat is inconsistent. Rather than my explanation which makes sense and proves none of what Kishi drew was inconsistent. Yeah ok. You have no legs to stand on.

Because you say so Minato's feat is consistent but not "Lee's".

Because you say so Madara was not "trying" to kill Gai when he enganed him.

Are you the creator of Naruto?


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## hbcaptain (Jul 5, 2017)

Jad said:


> Nah. Gai already created Hirudora the moment the tiger was created.
> 
> Kisame was forming Daikoudan (on mobile)
> 
> ...


At best Kisame was moving as fast as Hirudora punch, at worst he was moving as fast as 7G Gai average speed.

Which means, "*the serious* JJ Madara being pressured by 7G Gai" is ridiculous. Not only his status doesn't match your statement but also his feats.



> Because you say so Minato's feat is consistent but not "Lee's".


I never said so. What I said is that feats are inconsistant and we shouldn't rely a lot on them.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 5, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except Gai actually did better when he got JJ off-guard. We literally saw it. We saw Minato getting someone off-guard by literally teleporting to him... he got owned.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



1) You're argument is like me saying Obito stuck his hand inside Madara so half dead Obito is better than 8g Gai using Sekizo.

It ignores the situation by taking motivations and context out of the situation and presenting it flatly.
Here watch
"Konohamaru did better against Pain than Kakashi did. Konohamaru must be stronger than Kakashi!"

Gai ( when attacking someone with the mentality of a Saiyan) attacks( someone who doesn't bother responding with anything until Gai does something threatening and then immediately flomps him) Madara, and didnt lose an arm (like when Madara was actually fighting back)
So he did better in the same (totally different) situation!
Same logic.

2) and yet none of that conduct is him using it and moving well afterword....  interesting.

Well I guess him falling flat on his grill 
Proves your point.
Wait... it proves mine? Well then.

You are trying to equate Kakashi getting faster and more precise with Kamui taking less of a toll on his body and those aren't related.

Getting better with a gun doesn't mean it stops costing bullets to fire. The bullet cost a nickel no matter where it lands.


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## Ayala (Jul 5, 2017)

@Hi no Ishi

About Kakashi's Kamui, we have seen him warp Deidara while running in the woods. Sure it took the toll after that, but that's BoS Kakashi who admitted he was a novice with MS, took a lot to charge Kamui and couldn't even properly control it. And even then, he could move after it, fast enough to catch KN2 Naruto without a proper reaction.

The Kakashi you're talking about is the Kakashi who has been fighting all day and used 3 Kamui charges (one of them large enough to warp Mazo's head). You can even pick up the moment he starts bleeding, first time for Kakashi, and sign of MS being overused.

Kakashi had said he couldn't move properly after using Kamui, not during Kamui. And yet, in the war arc he moved properly after using it, and as Obito outright told him, he had mastered his Sharingan completely at that point.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 5, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) You're argument is like me saying Obito stuck his hand inside Madara so half dead Obito is better than 8g Gai using Sekizo.
> 
> It ignores the situation by taking motivations and context out of the situation and presenting it flatly.
> Here watch
> ...





Bimbo-3 said:


> @Hi no Ishi
> 
> About Kakashi's Kamui, we have seen him warp Deidara while running in the woods. Sure it took the toll after that, but that's BoS Kakashi who admitted he was a novice with MS, took a lot to charge Kamui and couldn't even properly control it. And even then, he could move after it, fast enough to catch KN2 Naruto without a proper reaction.
> 
> ...


That was well thought out sir, and you would have a point if 
A) He hadn't stated several arcs after that that he can't move well after Kamui and multiple times at that.

B) he hadn't taken a rest break in a tree prior to that tagging of mid-losing-his-shit Naruto.

C) while I don't expect you to wade through wall of text for background on this conversation, to sum it up:
I stated that Kakashi has never moved well for long after Kamui, so missing would leave him vulnerable which it why he doesn't do it in 1vs1s lIke Deva Path, or the Swordsmen of the mist.
Excepting of course when he was on that Crack.
 ( if we take those feats then Hinata can solo Akatsuki)
Munboy, stated that he could move just fine after he warped BM Naruto, whereas that scan proved that statement false.
 If you have a scan on non cracked Kakashi using Kamui and moving around I'd appreciate it.
Otherwise I don't think he can.


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## Ayala (Jul 5, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> That was well thought out sir, and you would have a point if
> A) He hadn't stated several arcs after that that he can't move well after Kamui and multiple times at that.
> 
> B) he hadn't taken a rest break in a tree prior to that tagging of mid-losing-his-shit Naruto.
> ...



I thought the argument was that he can't do Kamui while moving, or else he gets incapacitated, based on the panel where he fell down after using it. The thing is, it's never stated he can't do it while moving, or that it's more stressful on him that way, never implied even. If Bos Kakashi who had to be hospitalized for a week didn't fall on his face after using it on movement, War Kakashi also doesn't. 

Kakashi said he can't move well after Kamui, yet he outright moved well after having wasted a Mazo head sized Kamui, when he engaged with Raikiri (him being thrown by B doesn't mean he can't walk just like it didn't mean that Gai couldn't walk when he asked the same thing from him).

Kakashi warped away from the other dimension after fighting Obito (which costed him a lot) without any visible drawback, and got into a fight with Black Zetsu along Minato right after that. 

At that point of the manga, chakra was the only issue for the MS, nothing else, it didn't have the physical drawbacks and the hospital as he did at start shippuden, he was on the same level as an Uchiha. That's the evolution, he only completely perfected his eye upon fighting Obito, as he also points out. 

At the end, even if the physical drawback exists, it's not enough to make a difference, as Kakashi can still do jutsu and run, and the drawback lasts for very little.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 5, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> I thought the argument was that he can't do Kamui while moving, or else he gets incapacitated, based on the panel where he fell down after using it. The thing is, it's never stated he can't do it while moving, or that it's more stressful on him that way, never implied even. If Bos Kakashi who had to be hospitalized for a week didn't fall on his face after using it on movement, War Kakashi also doesn't.
> 
> Kakashi said he can't move well after Kamui, yet he outright moved well after having wasted a Mazo head sized Kamui, when he engaged with Raikiri (him being thrown by B doesn't mean he can't walk just like it didn't mean that Gai couldn't walk when he asked the same thing from him).
> 
> ...



1) being thrown doesnt mean you can't move but it sure as heck isn't evidence you can.
(No one thinks Nagato is super mobile because he has a walker.)

2) he did all sorts of stuff after receiving the nine tails chakra but darn sure not before

3) I never said he can't do it in motion. That's not the problem. It's using it and moving afterward I've been talking about the whole time.
Kakashi said he can't, and he doesn't do it except on that crack.
Even the time you mention he was chilling in a tree gasping for a while before he jumped at Naruto.


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## Jad (Jul 6, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Gai ( when attacking someone with the mentality of a Saiyan) attacks( someone who doesn't bother responding with anything until Gai does something threatening and then immediately flomps him) Madara, and didnt lose an arm (like when Madara was actually fighting back)
> So he did better in the same (totally different) situation!
> Same logic.




Your logic fails when you've already constructed an imaginary Madara that does not engage in combat against ONLY Gai. When in fact the Manga-Madara has in multiple times retaliated immediately on being attacked. Heck it happened 5 seconds before Gai appeared against Minato, Gaara and Kakashi. Because Gai didn't die against Madara immediately when he engaged him it MUST be because of Madara's kindness. How's that a fair assessment?

Madara didn't kill Gai for that brief skirmish because he couldn't, not until he had that buffer of air from Hirudora, to which he still couldn't reach and kill Gai. Not until he was flat on the ground.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Jul 6, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) being thrown doesnt mean you can't move but it sure as heck isn't evidence you can.
> (No one thinks Nagato is super mobile because he has a walker.)
> 
> 2) he did all sorts of stuff after receiving the nine tails chakra but darn sure not before
> ...



"As for Kakashi do you mean vs Obito where he camped out on the eight tails sniping, and passed out on his face when he actually did Kamui while moving?"

This is what i was referring.

After a Mazo head sized Kamui, Kakashi went on to engage Obito, he simply used the throw to get there faster. He went to engage him, not simply launch a kunai and then rest ( it was a lucky coincidence to land the hit,the plan was to engage until they get an opening), he'd be fucked if he tried to engage without being able to "move well",and he knows that much. All the fight he and Minato had against Zetsu Obito (who lasted for the entire time Madara resurrected, took on the kids, took on the bijuu, became Jin and reached their battlefield) was without Kurama chakra, and he was moving well enough, enough to fight side to side with Minato, right after having used Kamui.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> "As for Kakashi do you mean vs Obito where he camped out on the eight tails sniping, and passed out on his face when he actually did Kamui while moving?"
> 
> This is what i was referring.
> 
> After a Mazo head sized Kamui, Kakashi went on to engage Obito, he simply used the throw to get there faster. He went to engage him, not simply launch a kunai and then rest ( it was a lucky coincidence to land the hit,the plan was to engage until they get an opening), he'd be fucked if he tried to engage without being able to "move well",and he knows that much. All the fight he and Minato had against Zetsu Obito (who lasted for the entire time Madara resurrected, took on the kids, took on the bijuu, became Jin and reached their battlefield) was without Kurama chakra, and he was moving well enough, enough to fight side to side with Minato, right after having used Kamui.



Ah I see, thats a bit out of context but I do see my poor phrasing.
No he and I were talking about 



Hi no Ishi said:


> Kakashi also can't move well if he misses a Kamui Snipe and being a sitting duck is a bad idea against Minato.



I was talking about if Kakashi missed a Kamui Snipe against Minato then he likely wouldn't be moving quickly enough to handle Minato's counter attack.

Your point seems to be probably could move because why would he be thrown toward a dangerous enemy if he couldn't move.

My point is I haven't seen him do it.
He only did stuff like that after a Kurama recharge.
Again, even without the cloak he said that was at least a three x powerup, and Katsuyu said the chakra wasn't gone when the cloak disappeared.

So until something tells me that that changed it didn't.

I'll just believe Kakashi when he tells his allies his weakness and thinks it to himself.


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## Ayala (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Ah I see, thats a bit out of context but I do see my poor phrasing.
> No he and I were talking about
> 
> 
> ...



You couldn't possibly see it if they managed to get lucky hits, there wasn't the need to engage further, but the intention was there. 

Kakashi got exhausted in the battle against Obito, and he didn't show the healing effect Kurama's chakra gives. We also saw everyone losing their hopes once the cloak was gone, and not a single guy showed augmented physical prowess without the cloak (which Kakashi didn't have). It's not right to suppose a bit of chakra from Kurama (which he didn't have at the point of the battle with Zetsu Obito) made Kakashi get past the weak spots of the MS usage, when chakra was never even the problem. 

Kakashi said he couldn't move well one arc earlier. For comparison, right before the day the war started, Gai said he can't move well after the Gates, and passed out some moments later and had to be healed. But war Gai doesn't have the same problem.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> You couldn't possibly see it if they managed to get lucky hits, there wasn't the need to engage further, but the intention was there.



I agree that we couldnt have seen a thing that did not happen. Nor can we claim it as a feat.
Kakashi is no coward, if he thought getting tossed there in any condition would be the best move he wouldnt hesitate an instant. He has made sacrifice plays before.

Also trusting your team is a thing he may have been into.


Bimbo-3 said:


> Kakashi got exhausted in the battle against Obito, and he didn't show the healing effect Kurama's chakra gives. We also saw everyone losing their hopes once the cloak was gone, and not a single guy showed augmented physical prowess without the cloak (which Kakashi didn't have). It's not right to suppose a bit of chakra from Kurama (which he didn't have at the point of the battle with Zetsu Obito) made Kakashi get past the weak spots of the MS usage, when chakra was never even the problem


Hey they said what they said about the cloaks, and while your reasoning for believing otherwise is solid it's still conjecture.
Also Kakashi made multiple statements about the difference between his Kamui before and after the chakra boost such as being able to use it better and more often, and Kurama said "There, now he should be able to use it whenever he wants" after giving Kakashi chakra.



Bimbo-3 said:


> Kakashi said he couldn't move well one arc earlier. For comparison, right before the day the war started, Gai said he can't move well after the Gates, and passed out some moments later and had to be healed. But war Gai doesn't have the same problem.



Thats a great example because Gai was being dragged around by his team, barely able to walk, when they saw Madara pass by and spit out the sacred tools. So that's proof he sure did have the same problem.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Jad said:


> Your logic fails when you've already constructed an imaginary Madara that does not engage in combat against ONLY Gai. When in fact the Manga-Madara has in multiple times retaliated immediately on being attacked. Heck it happened 5 seconds before Gai appeared against Minato, Gaara and Kakashi. Because Gai didn't die against Madara immediately when he engaged him it MUST be because of Madara's kindness. How's that a fair assessment?
> 
> Madara didn't kill Gai for that brief skirmish because he couldn't, not until he had that buffer of air from Hirudora, to which he still couldn't reach and kill Gai. Not until he was flat on the ground.


1)Madara being amused and later flat out stating that he was screwing around  against ONLY Gai is enough for me actually. Your conjecture doesn't change that.

2) No one immediately died fighting JJ Madara so nope. Only you have mentioned kindness, that's like saying Vegeta let's Cell powerup out of kindness.

3) If your argument is Madara couldn't react to Gai, when he later reacted to a more powerful version of Gai doing faster attacks, then also nope.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Jad (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1)Madara being amused and later flat out stating that he was screwing around  against ONLY Gai is enough for me actually. Your conjecture doesn't change that.
> 
> 2) No one immediately died fighting JJ Madara so nope. Only you have mentioned kindness, that's like saying Vegeta let's Cell powerup out of kindness.
> 
> 3) If your argument is Madara couldn't react to Gai, when he later reacted to a more powerful version of Gai doing faster attacks, then also nope.



1. Can you post the panel he states this.

2. Don't understand your point. All I said was Madara wouldn't have let Gai throw so many attacks at him if he could have ended it before the 'fight' started. Just like with Minato and co.

3. I've stated that 7th Gated speed is a bit faster than 1st Step EE since he could staff block the attack from a close distance but couldn't staff block Gai in 7G from a further distance. That's based on feats, and no statement or panel contradicts that. Obviously first step
EE shits on 7th Gated power but not necessarily in speed.

Madara couldn't physically react to any EE Step 2+ attacks. Only 5th Step which is why I state Gai slows down momentarily.


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## Ayala (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> I agree that we couldnt have seen a thing that did not happen. Nor can we claim it as a feat.
> Kakashi is no coward, if he thought getting tossed there in any condition would be the best move he wouldnt hesitate an instant. He has made sacrifice plays before.
> 
> Also trusting your team is a thing he may have been into.
> ...



No coward, but if you can't move well, you can't move and engage Obito (without showing any particular sign of physical struggle or remark, such as the earlier arc), you'd fail immediatly and drag down the team. He also considered he could be warped away and be done, so that's no easy risk to take, considering his squad wasn't even going down when he decided to come in, he wasn't in defensive mode, but offensive one.

Again, there's no indication Kurama's chakra nullifies MS drawbacks. All it does is give more chakra. Kakashi simply had more chakra to use into Kamui.

Gai used 7 Gates and then 8 right after, while having engaged in combat for an extensive period of time before that.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> No coward, but if you can't move well, you can't move and engage Obito (without showing any particular sign of physical struggle or remark, such as the earlier arc), you'd fail immediatly and drag down the team. He also considered he could be warped away and be done, so that's no easy risk to take, considering his squad wasn't even going down when he decided to come in, he wasn't in defensive mode, but offensive one.
> 
> Again, there's no indication Kurama's chakra nullifies MS drawbacks. All it does is give more chakra. Kakashi simply had more chakra to use into Kamui.
> 
> Gai used 7 Gates and then 8 right after, while having engaged in combat for an extensive period of time before that.



1) Again plausible, but still conjecture. All we saw was he got thrown so it's not an example of him moving well.

2) All I know is it makes it easier for him to use quickly and enhances it's strength. And Kuramas statement makes it seem like yes it does mean he can use it freely. Again I don't usually count on Crack feats for anyone not just Kakashi, otherwise I would be making Hinata vs Akatsuki threads everyday and having a blast.

3)him recovering and fighting later has never been in question you said

"Kakashi said he couldn't move well one arc earlier. For comparison, right before the day the war started, Gai said he can't move well after the Gates, and passed out some moments later and had to be healed. But war Gai doesn't have the same problem."

When that's proven false by him being so wrecked from using it.


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## Ayala (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) Again plausible, but still conjecture. All we saw was he got thrown so it's not an example of him moving well.
> 
> 2) All I know is it makes it easier for him to use quickly and enhances it's strength. And Kuramas statement makes it seem like yes it does mean he can use it freely. Again I don't usually count on Crack feats for anyone not just Kakashi, otherwise I would be making Hinata vs Akatsuki threads everyday and having a blast.
> 
> ...



That's fine, i said mine. 

Kakashi was supposed to be out of chakra and sealed away forever, but Kurama said he gave him enough chakra to eventually return. Nothing else implied and nothing special, Kakashi does it in his own with enough starting chakra. Since there's a limit of chakra to Kakashi, he can't use Kamui as freely or spam big shots with it without extra chakra, nothing else i think. 

Gai moved after the 7 Gates (being already tired before it) and went 8 Gates. In the arc before, he got handled by a shark and passed out after the 7 Gates, while being fresh before using it.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Jad said:


> 1. Can you post the panel he states this.
> 
> 2. Don't understand your point. All I said was Madara wouldn't have let Gai throw so many attacks at him if he could have ended it before the 'fight' started. Just like with Minato and co.
> 
> ...


In 667 he is wondering where the Red Steam is, Gai attacks gets flomped and Kakashi is like "Whelp, that ain't workin!"
At the end of 668 he clearly still sounds super amused and interested in the gates and laughs about it, and in 669 Indeed 
He is even more happy to be jobbing and talks about how rare it is to see the 8th Gate and how he will indulge in the battle a little longer. None of which tells me he honestly felt pressured by Gai.

2) and yet no limbo, Susano'o, staff waving just some dodging, he can pull out limbo when already caught by two stronger opponents but not here? OK sure. Why not.

3) conjecture. Gai is specifically told to keep going not to "slow down" in 669.
Gai is said to gain power tens of times greater than the Gokage. But I should assume he got slower??

Look for a conclusion to fit the facts not facts to fit a conclusion.

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 7, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> That's fine, i said mine.
> 
> Kakashi was supposed to be out of chakra and sealed away forever, but Kurama said he gave him enough chakra to eventually return. Nothing else implied and nothing special, Kakashi does it in his own with enough starting chakra. Since there's a limit of chakra to Kakashi, he can't use Kamui as freely or spam big shots with it without extra chakra, nothing else i think.
> 
> Gai moved after the 7 Gates (being already tired before it) and went 8 Gates. In the arc before, he got handled by a shark and passed out after the 7 Gates, while being fresh before using it.


1) cool. 

2) "I think" is the operative, I know you feel he can and I know why but we never saw it.

3) First you said the drawback wasn't there now it's "oh he recovered several hours later so it doesn't count." We can't move the goalposts on each other friend, we'll never get done.
Guy might have better recovery time or not, we don't have a clock going on both instances to tell us but the drawback is still there clearly.

In any case Kakashi maybe being able to move after a few minutes of sitting won't help much against Minato.


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## Hasan (Jul 7, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> Again, there's no indication Kurama's chakra nullifies MS drawbacks. All it does is give more chakra. Kakashi simply had more chakra to use into Kamui.



Indeed. The Kakashi-Shikaku dialogue later on makes it clear that Kyuubi's chakra only allowed him to create _larger _barrier space for Kamui.


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## Veracity (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> In 667 he is wondering where the Red Steam is, Gai attacks gets flomped and Kakashi is like "Whelp, that ain't workin!"
> At the end of 668 he clearly still sounds super amused and interested in the gates and laughs about it, and in 669 2
> He is even more happy to be jobbing and talks about how rare it is to see the 8th Gate and how he will indulge in the battle a little longer. None of which tells me he honestly felt pressured by Gai.
> 
> ...



Egg-Zac-Lee.

Tired of people picking and choosing what feats they want in order to gas their favorite character up. Especially when outliers are considered. 

Just listen to the top tier levels of mental gymnastics needed to come down to the conclusion that Gai in the 7th Gate is as fast as some claim he is:

1) You have to completely ignore Ay and act like his character doesn't exist. He's stated to be the fastest shinobi alive but people ignore this despite it being concrete evidence of Ay> Gai in traveling speed.

2) You have to accept Gai's outlier feats of "pressuring" JJ Madara, but ignore other outliers within the same arc involving the same characters like; Minato reacting faster than 8th Gate Gai, Lee throwing faster than 8th Gate Gai, Kamui being faster than 8th Gate Gai, and Gaara's sand being faster than 8th Gate Gai. 

3) You have to ignore the fact that JJ Madara reacted to 8th Gate Gai better on _three_ different occasions.

4) You have to outright make up garbage like 7th Gate Gai being faster than first step 8th Gate Gai despite the wealth of hype the 8th Gate has.

So no. 7th Gate Gai isn't pressuring god tiers lol. He does not have portrayal like that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Jad (Jul 7, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> In 667 he is wondering where the Red Steam is, Gai attacks gets flomped and Kakashi is like "Whelp, that ain't workin!"
> At the end of 668 he clearly still sounds super amused and interested in the gates and laughs about it, and in 669 God Movement
> He is even more happy to be jobbing and talks about how rare it is to see the 8th Gate and how he will indulge in the battle a little longer. None of which tells me he honestly felt pressured by Gai.
> 
> ...


"Look for a conclusion to fit the facts not facts to fit a conclusion" What is this? Wise words?

1. God Movement Don't see the words "induldge in tge fight a little longer". He was pressured by 8 Gates Gai - he had a full on inner dialog how he needed not get hit by EE and avoid direct punches. Hell, Kakashi the genuis had put his "hope" in Gai's Taijutsu in 7G; which bolsters my arguement of hiw danerous 7G power is against non-god tiers if Kakashi thought he was strong enough to do something. Even Gaara thought Gai's Taijutsu was there shot to do something. God Movement

2. His Limbo could gave been not in the area at the time. Possibly didn't activate it in time after becoming a Jubi Jin? Madara never had Sasuno after fusing with the Jins? He never used it period in the manga so who knows what happened..

3. Gai can choose to slow down, yet still continue attacking. That's not hard to imagine. As for proof Gai slowed down? Well Madara could block first step EE, but do jack shit all in response to 2nd, 3rd and 4th step, yet surprise surprise between 4th and 5th step Madara has time to react and shield himself completely! Gaara and Kakashi could outpace Gai! Lee could throw a Kunai to intercept Gai! Could it be because Gai didn't want to interrupt the plan to steal the Goudama away?

I've got definitive proof Gai pressured Juuubi Madara on the defense in 7G because that's what happened, you can even see multiple impact sfx illustrations. Yet your giving this weird out-of-thin-air conclusion Madara didn't WANT TO attack back? Even though he instantly retaliates the moment he is attacked ala 5 seconds ago before Gai appeared!

Madara thought he was being underestimated by Gai using 7G release yet he still choose not to body Gai? Why? Madara even tried to attack Gai twice the moment he got the chances, when Hirudora's air pressure created distance from himself and Gai thus halting the combo, and second when Gai was on the ground collapsed. He couldn't do that to him when he was stringing combo's in 7G because he was on full defense mode. That's it! You can see the impact marks, why let him do that and not just body Gai like he did Minato?

What? Did Madara find a warn out 7G Gai more impressive than Edo Minato SM with FTG that he let him excute his combo? Really?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Jad said:


> "Look for a conclusion to fit the facts not facts to fit a conclusion" What is this? Wise words?
> 
> 1. yet another attack  Don't see the words "induldge in tge fight a little longer". He was pressured by 8 Gates Gai - he had a full on inner dialog how he needed not get hit by EE and avoid direct punches. Hell, Kakashi the genuis had put his "hope" in Gai's Taijutsu in 7G; which bolsters my arguement of hiw danerous 7G power is against non-god tiers if Kakashi thought he was strong enough to do something. Even Gaara thought Gai's Taijutsu was there shot to do something. yet another attack
> 
> ...



If you find them wise then thanks I guess! Lol

1) you sure did see them in the scan I posted lol, in yours it says play with you instead of indulge. Semantic difference is semantic.

2) So much conjecture, so little time. You and I both know any of those things could have ended it and happen nearly at thought speed.
 I admire your creativity but none of that is in the manga. 
Limbo is literally immune to physical attacks but can use them. Gai stood no chance.

3) Kakashi and Gaara getting there when Minato says he'll help them get there isn't odd. Lee's Kunai throw was attributed to timing, and Gai was told to keep going. I don't need to imagine a how and a why because that makes sense.
If you look only at that one panel and ignore the context of the surrounding chapters I could understand your point, but Madara was fighting to gets his eye back and the other half of the nine tails from Obito and co. before and Gai showed up after Obito left.
Different situations.
And you see Madara looking for an amusing fight which you act like is OOC for Madara for some reason.

He waited till Gai actually did something worthwhile and then countered it easily, that's it.

And SM Minato was only a threat to getting his eyes back before Obito left. 
He fought FTG for years why would it interest him like a thing he said was rarely seen?


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Sekizou by definition is a continious 5 steps air-canons where the speed increase each time :


> Releasing one’s power remitters to draw out power until the utmost limit, by opening the “Eight Gates Released Formation”, The Eighth Gate [Gate of Death], this taijutsu can be activated. For a moment, (one is) able to gain power even greater than the 5 kage (combined) however, the jutsu-caster will definitely reach death after its use — a double-edged sword. It is actually a super-speed hit/strike in air, a hitting (offensive) air-cannon.
> 
> *There are *1 to 5 levels (steps, phases) of speed; raising the gear will increase the power.*


Which means if Gai stopped, he needs to restart from Issoki (1st step).

yet Gai called his last move (5th step) Gossoku even before Minato's intervention, whilst Minato told him not to slow down (which also means he can mentally react to 5th step Sekizou with ease) so how the hell did he would slow down.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Ayala (Jul 8, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) cool.
> 
> 2) "I think" is the operative, I know you feel he can and I know why but we never saw it.
> 
> ...



Gai went 8 Gates and fought Madara after opening and fighting in 7 Gates first. If the previous drawback was there, Gai wouldn't be able to even move after his Hirudora failed, looking as he was already wrecked before that. This is what im saying, no goalpost changed.

What's the several hours later you're talking about, it was a 2 min at max, to give the speech.

I said i think because i can't be perfectly sure, maybe i missed a panel saying Kurama's chakra erases the drawbacks. But since such a panel doesn't seem to exist, there's no doubt Kurama's chakra has nothing to do with it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Bimbo-3 said:


> Gai went 8 Gates and fought Madara after opening and fighting in 7 Gates first. If the previous drawback was there, Gai wouldn't be able to even move after his Hirudora failed, looking as he was already wrecked before that. This is what im saying, no goalpost changed.
> 
> What's the several hours later you're talking about, it was a 2 min at max, to give the speech.
> 
> I said i think because i can't be perfectly sure, maybe i missed a panel saying Kurama's chakra erases the drawbacks. But since such a panel doesn't seem to exist, there's no doubt Kurama's chakra has nothing to do with it.



1) what? The gates remove your limiters you just keep fighting till you cant.
Naruto Region Combo
Gate 2 revitalizes the body while in use your just wrecked when you stop using the gates. 
You literally saw him barely able to walk when JJ Mads spit out the treasured tools, during the war vs Edo Madara, and ~48 hours before that vs Kisame. 
Using the gates still leaves him wrecked. 

2) it was just after sunset when Gai last used the 7th Gate vs Edo Mads, it was almost morning when they were fighting JJ Mads unless the Kaguya fight took 6 hours or so. A bunch of stuff happened in between regardless.

3)


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## Jad (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Sekizou by definition is a continious 5 steps air-canons where the speed increase each time :
> 
> Which means if Gai stopped, he needs to restart from Issoki (1st step).
> 
> yet Gai called his last move (5th step) Gossoku even before Minato's intervention, whilst Minato told him not to slow down (which also means he can mentally react to 5th step Sekizou with ease) so how the hell did he would slow down.


Seizkou is the air pressure beams created from punching. The air pressure from his pumches get faster if he doesn't break, like what happened on his first attempt.

Gai doesn't MOVE faster. The air pressure created from his punches do. You showed me SEVERAL quotes that ALL LINK to EE movinv faster NOTHING about Gai himself.

Again every translation says EE gets faster not Gai! So Gai can slow down himself.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Jad said:


> Seizkou is the air pressure beams created from punching. The air pressure from his pumches get faster if he doesn't break, like what happened on his first attempt.
> 
> Gai doesn't MOVE faster. The air pressure created from his punches do. You showed me SEVERAL quotes that ALL LINK to EE movinv faster NOTHING about Gai himself.


Merely excuses as awlays...


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## Jad (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Merely excuses as awlays...


Show me where it says Gai gets faster. All I see is EE gets faster which are punches that create air cannons, and as long as he throws punches without stopping, EE gets faster. Gai just has to keep moving slow or fast. That's what manga shows us, that's what your translation tells us.

Go on. Show me where it says EE makes GAI faster. Show me where it says that. I'll wait.

You posted the translations yet can't even interpret it correctly.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Jad said:


> Show me where it says Gai gets faster. All I see is EE gets faster which are punches that create air cannons, and as long as he throws punches without stopping, EE gets faster. Gai just has to keep moving slow or fast. That's what manga shows us, that's what your translation tells us.
> 
> Go on. Show me where it says EE makes GAI faster. Show me where it says that. I'll wait.
> 
> You posted the translations yet can't even interpret it correctly.


Show me where it's said Iruka isn' stronger than Hahsirama.

Sorry but all your reasoning is hilarous.


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## Jad (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Show me where it's said that Iruka is stronger than Hahsirama.
> 
> Sorry but all your reasoning is hilarous.



Umm. All the detailed explanations of hiw EE works don't mention Gai moving faster. They all state EE gets faster. If Gai moving faster was part of EE Kishi would mention it


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Jad said:


> Umm. All the detailed explanations of hiw EE works don't mention Gai moving faster. They all state EE gets faster. If Gai moving faster was part of EE Kishi would mention it


EE is by definition a High speed movement, and since it's the 8th Gate which is hundreds of times overall stronger than the 7th Gate (since it's tens of times stronger than the Gokage), then it's obivous it's 9/10 tiers above AT in speed.


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## Jad (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> EE is by definition a High speed movement, and since it's the 8th Gate which is hundreds of times overall stronger than the 7th Gate (since it's tens of times stronger than the Gokage), then it's obivous it's 9/10 tiers above AT in speed.


Erm. 

Hirudora is created by the fastest punch. Hirudora's travel speed is not what is on question here...

Do you not understand that?

Plus I'm talking about Gai in 7G moving infront of Madara.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Jad said:


> Erm.
> 
> Hirudora is created by the fastest punch. Hirudora's travel speed is not what is on question here...
> 
> ...


Deidara also stated C4 was his strongest technique yet C0 as even stronger.
The same goes here, since the 8th Gate is a suicide Jutsu then it's not taken into consideration.
Morover, V2 Ei > AT since he was the fastest man in the world after Minato's death.
Overall :
AT < V2 Ei < Minato << KCM Minato << JJ Obito < JJ Madara << red Gai (Sakizou) < Red Gai (Yagai).
red Gai is many tiers above 7G Gai in terms of speed.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Merely excuses as awlays...


Jad is right... It is the punches; the continuity you are suggesting is clearly broken. Otherwise, you would see five punches here, not four.

... While Guy does appear to speed up with the first four punches, he stops at the fifth one, when Madara starts forming the Gudoudama-encapsulation. Had he maintained the continuity, there was no need for Minato to instruct him to continue with the attack i.e. the momentum gained with the first four was lost.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Jad is right... It is the punches; the continuity you are suggesting is clearly broken. Otherwise, you would see five punches here, not four.
> 
> ... While Guy does appear to speed up with the first four punches, he stops at the fifth one, when Madara starts forming the Gudoudama-encapsulation. Had he maintained the continuity, there was no need for Minato to instruct him to continue with the attack i.e. the momentum gained with the first four was lost.


Nah he wasn't broken since he called it Gossoku, Minato, Kakashi and co simply managed to take action in the middle of Gossoku.
Gai started the Gossuku before they started their combo :
1)He said fifth step whilst he is taken the right position to punch, which means he already started Gossoku.
2)Lee launched the Kunai whilst Gai is in the middle of the punch
3)Minato catched the Kunai and teleported the GudoDama whilst Gai is still in the middle of Gossoku (about to punch).
4)Kakashi opened a whole on GudoDama shield whilst Gai is still in the middle of Gossoku punch
5)Gai completed the Gossoku punch [1][2]

But apparently you just try to turn arround evidence when what happened was pretty clear and well explained in both manga and Databook. It's not me who claimed that Sekizou is a continious combo but the manga and Databook which means all what you said is bad faith fanfic to save the face.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Nah he wasn't broken since he called it Gossoku, Minato, Kakashi and co simply managed to take action in the middle of Gossoku.
> Gai started the Gossuku before they started their combo :
> 1)He said fifth step whilst he is taken the right position to punch, which means he already started Gossoku.
> 2)Lee launched the Kunai whilst Gai is in the middle of the punch
> ...


You said (in an earlier post) that Guy delivered each successive punch, whilst maneuvering at a speed faster than when delivering earlier punches. If the 5th one was delivered at a faster pace than the 4th, then you would see it in that panel, which I linked. I am not denying that he sped up with first four punches, because you see their effects together... but you don't see the last one, which you are claiming to have been delivered faster than the 4th punch.

... By the time, Guy delivers the 5th punch, all of it is gone. But your continuity _*necessiates*_, its effects should feature prominently alongside the previous four. Basically, continuous is punches _themselves_, not their delivery rate.

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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> You said (in an earlier post) that Guy delivered each successive punch, whilst maneuvering at a speed faster than when delivering earlier punches. If the 5th one was delivered at a faster pace than the 4th, then you would see it in that panel, which I linked. I am not denying that he sped up with first four punches, because you see their effects together... but you don't see the last one, which you are claiming to have been delivered faster than the 4th punch.
> 
> ... By the time, Guy delivers the 5th punch, all of it is gone. But your continuity _*necessiates*_, its effects should feature prominently alongside the previous four. Basically, continuous is punches _themselves_, not their delivery rate.


Not necessary, the author can slow down/speedup us readers temporality, focus on some actions/ or not whenever he wants according to the plot. He did the same when KCM Naruto/Minato dodged V2 Ei, he did it again when Gai was making mudras to launch Hirudora against JJ Madarra.
And he used the same process again with the fifth step, he wanted us readers to see the details of Mianto's team action so he showed us every one's intervention in slow motion so that we can understand what happened.
The fifth step began right after the fourth step and right before Minato Team actions, it was in the middle of the process was finished after Minato Team actions. There is nothing to suggest Sekizou was disrupted or anything else.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

hbcaptain said:


> Not necessary, the author can slow down/speedup us readers temporality, focus on some actions/ or not whenever he wants according to the plot. He did the same when KCM Naruto/Minato dodged V2 Ei, he did it again when Gai was making mudras to launch Hirudora against JJ Madarra.
> And he used the same process again with the fifth step, he wanted us readers to see the details of Mianto's team action so he showed us every one's intervention in slow motion so that we can understand what happened.
> The fifth step began right after the fourth step and right before Minato Team actions, it was in the middle of the process was finished after Minato Team actions. There is nothing to suggest Sekizou was disrupted or anything else.



Well, none is saying that the technique was disrupted. You are equating continuity with delivery rate, which is why you seem to think that I am suggesting it was disrupted. Never said, nor implied disruption. I am equating it with punches themselves (as Jad pointed out), and it is hardly surprising considering we have seen Asa Kujaku and Hirudora, which have no bearing on Guy's maneuverability. Has Kishimoto done close-ups? Yes, but was it the case here? No. When you see Guy deliver the last punch, there are no effects from the previous punches. The scene is changed altogether: Look at Madara. By the first four punches, Guy doesn't even give him a chance to defend using Gudoudama-shield, yet by the fifth one, he forms a Gudodama-capsule, and shoots the remainder at Guy?

... If Guy never slowed down or stopped, why did Minato instruct him to continue with his attack? When he was already en route full-speed ahead? The successive panel show the Gudoudama-capsule formed around Madara almost completely, puts into perspective, Minato's comment. Guy obviously stopped, and upon resuming, accommodated for his teammates to do their respective jobs.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Well, none is saying that the technique was disrupted. You are equating continuity with delivery rate, which is why you seem to think that I am suggesting it was disrupted. Never said, nor implied disruption. I am equating it with punches themselves (as Jad pointed out), and it is hardly surprising considering we have seen Asa Kujaku and Hirudora, which have no bearing on Guy's maneuverability. Has Kishimoto done close-ups? Yes, but was it the case here? No. When you see Guy deliver the last punch, there are no effects from the previous punches. The scene is changed altogether: Look at Madara. His intial attempt to form Gudoudama-capsule is failed by the first four punches, yet by the fifth punch, he forms it fully _and_ manages to shoot the remainder at Guy.
> 
> If Guy never slowed down or stopped, why did Minato instructed him to continue with his attack? When he was already en route full-speed ahead? I understand all of it is happening very fast, but there is a clear disconnection in what you are trying to convey.


We don't know "the deep" mecanism of the punches but both Lee and Databook clearly claimed the speed increase each time *til the 5th gear of speed* which means the punches are related to each other and as I explained in the last post, so are you disregarding the Databook ?

Moreover, as I said in the last post Kishi only changed the point of view and the temporality of us readers so that we can see Minato Team's intervention and not because the 5th one is not related to others.

Furthermore, we saw Gai failing once to deliver two consecutive Sekizou, because of the Pain, and he was forced to restart from the beginning in order to reach the fifth step. In other words, there is no 5th step without the first 4.



> The scene is changed altogether: Look at Madara. His intial attempt to form Gudoudama-capsule is failed by the first four punches, yet by the fifth punch, he forms it fully _and_ manages to shoot the remainder at Guy.


Madara instantly formed a GudoDama shield before he got touched with the first Sekizou, then he was out temporarily because of the Pain of 2nd til the 4th Sekizou and then he got accustomed to the pain and instantly formed a 360° GudoDama shield another time before the fifth step which is faster than the four 1st steps.

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## Veracity (Jul 8, 2017)

If Gai can't fly and is jumping off air, someone explain to me how he slows down without changing direction?

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Veracity said:


> If Gai can't fly and is jumping off air, someone explain to me how he slows down without changing direction?


Because if you can't win with facts make stuff up, don't you watch politics lol

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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

I had made editions; seems you quoted before I made them...



hbcaptain said:


> We don't know "the deep" mecanism of the punches but both Lee and Databook clearly claimed the speed increase each time *til the 5th gear of speed* which means the punches are related to each other and as I explained in the last post, so are you disregarding the Databook ?


What does it have to do with Guy's manueverability?



> Moreover, as I said in the last post Kishi only changed the point of view and the temporality of us readers so that we can see Minato Team's intervention and not because the 5th one is not related to others.


Consistency should entail, when focusing in and out to depict multiple POVs. There is no logical flow in what you are trying to postulate. For example, Minato vs. Raikage example, you cited. I fail to see correlation, but rolling with it, Raikage closing-in on Minato is not in contradiction with what is overall presented. The details you are filling in as the author just _trying to show Team-Support in action_ do not follow from what is presented earlier.



> Furthermore, we saw Gai failing once to deliver two consecutive Sekizou, because of the Pain, and he was forced to restart from the beginning in order to reach the fifth step. In other words, there is no 5th step without the first 4.


... And none denied. Jad's question, from where I picked on, is about their link to Guy's manueverability, which you established. Guy can still deliver faster punches without the need of the said link.


> Madara instantly formed a GudoDama shield before he got touched with the first Sekizou, then he was out temporarily because of the Pain of 2nd til the 4th Sekizou and then he got accustomed to the pain and instantly formed a 360° GudoDama shield another time before the fifth step which is faster than the four 1st steps.



...

Madara manages to defend himself from the first punch, but Guy quickly follows up with a second, third and fourth from which he is unable to defend, leading to the scan I linked earlier. His shield is deformed by this point, but he manages to create a capsule from scratch to defend himself from a punch that was delivered at much faster pace than earlier? How does this make sense to you? The _different POV_ you are arguing for, does not follow from it. It should not even exist, because following on, Madara should have been floored without being able to form the capsule or shoot the Gudoudama at Guy. This has nothing to do with him getting accustomed to pain.

[Since I had made editons to earlier post, while you had already quoted the unedited one:]



Hasan said:


> ... If Guy never slowed down or stopped, why did Minato instruct him to continue with his attack? When he was already en route full-speed ahead? The successive panel show the Gudoudama-capsule formed around Madara almost completely, puts into perspective, Minato's comment. Guy obviously stopped, and upon resuming, accommodated for his teammates to do their respective jobs.


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## Veracity (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> [Since I had made editons to earlier post, while you had already quoted the unedited one:]



Because Minato and Co didn't want Gai to stop his assault for any reason; like Madara using TSB as defense for instance. 

I actually do want you to explain how Gai slowed down in that instance anyway, as he's simply pushing off air at incredible speeds not actually flying.

Minato even being able to shout those sentences and formulate a plan _*after*_ Gai had already started his jump towards Madara doesn't make sense either. You would have an argument if Gai could actually slow down in mid-air or if Gai heard Minato's statement before pushing off to attack. None of that happened though.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Because Minato and Co didn't want Gai to stop his assault for any reason; like Madara using TSB as defense for instance.


He realized it only after Guy had successfully delivered 4 punches, was already en route to deliver the last one?



> I actually do want you to explain how Gai slowed down in that instance anyway, as he's simply pushing off air at incredible speeds not actually flying.
> 
> Minato even being able to shout those sentences and formulate a plan _*after*_ Gai had already started his jump towards Madara doesn't make sense either. You would have an argument if Gai could actually slow down in mid-air or if Gai heard Minato's statement before pushing off to attack. None of that happened though.


How did Kakashi manage his momentum getting thrown by the Hachibi to save Naruto from Obito, when he threw a Raikiri-imbued kunai?


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## Veracity (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> He realized it only after Guy had successfully delivered 4 punches, was already en route to deliver the last one?
> 
> 
> How did Kakashi manage his momentum getting thrown by the Hachibi to save Naruto from Obito, when he threw a Raikiri-imbued kunai?



What does that have to do with anything? Any movement speed performed by 8th Gate Gai should be far above anything Rock Lee, Gaara, Kakashi and Base Minato can react to.

Link? And that still doesn't make up for everything else I stated in my passage.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

Veracity said:


> What does that have to do with anything? Any movement speed performed by 8th Gate Gai should be far above anything Rock Lee, Gaara, Kakashi and Base Minato can react to.


Movements are flexible. Being in Eighth Gate does not _necessiate_ Guy moving at constant speed. If Guy's movements are above them, which they are, then he simply accommodated for them.



> Link? And that still doesn't make up for everything else I stated in my passage.


Chapter #595... He's moving just fine cutting through the rocks until he realizes he can't reach Obito in time. He stops his movement there; remains suspended (due to gravity) and there's no hint of any advance movement towards Obito.

... It does, because as you said, it was merely just so Guy continues on his with attack. If he was already doing just fine, there is no need to make a mention. Immediately after, you see the Gudoudama-capsule forming, which adds context to Minato's comment. Guy stopped, because Madara had a defense wall, which he couldn't deal with. Hence, the _support _jumping in to deal with Gudoudama. It naturally follows, if Guy's speed was above them, then he toned it down, so they could do their job. Adjusting speed mid-air isn't unheard of...

Madara's defense like TSB, you said? Guy trampled over it with the first four punches.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Movements are flexible. Being in Eighth Gate does not _necessiate_ Guy moving at constant speed. If Guy's movements are above them, which they are, then he simply accommodated for them.
> 
> 
> Chapter #595... He's moving just fine cutting through the rocks until he realizes he can't reach Obito in time. He stops his movement there; remains suspended (due to gravity) and there's no hint of any advance movement towards Obito.
> ...



You just posted a perfect example of an author slowing down a fast series of events for the audience and drama.
These people are all in motion, there's motion lines everywhere in your own scans.
 None of them can fly or stop in mid air.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> You just posted a perfect example of an author slowing down a fast series of events for the audience and drama.
> These people are all in motion, there's motion lines everywhere in your own scans.
> None of them can fly or stop in mid air.



No, it isn't. By the time, Obito redirects the Raikiri-kunai, Kakashi should have already reached to him. Those motions lines have been used for various purposes, such as _focus_. They have been absent, where there is a motion. This shows nothing.

... Kishimoto slowing down Guy's _fastest of the five punches_ makes absolutely no sense, when you consider what details he added to depict drama. If he's slowing down, it should seamlessly flow into focus... and then out of it, no of which is present in this moment.

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> No, it isn't. By the time, Obito redirects the Raikiri-kunai, Kakashi should have already reached to him. Those motions lines have been used for various purposes, such as _focus_. They have been absent, where there is a motion. This shows nothing.
> 
> ... Kishimoto slowing down Guy's _fastest of the five punches_ makes absolutely no sense, when you consider what details he added to depict drama. If he's slowing down, it should seamlessly flow into focus... and then out of it, no of which is present in this moment.


1) Kakashi has the motion lines on him in every panel he is in your own scans, you're not really convinced that's an accident are you?

2) Actually it makes perfect sense that more focus would be on the final part of a special move, especially in a "teamwork saves the day" moment like this was.

It's not more likely that these guys can fly or air brake suddenly without mention than it is that Gai was in the fastest part of a Justu that is based on moving faster each time like they told us.

Nor is "Gai was moving slower but punching faster!!!" stated anywhere in the manga.


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## Santoryu (Jul 8, 2017)

Kakashi was so cool in that fight

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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) Kakashi has the motion lines on him in every panel he is in your own scans, you're not really convinced that's an accident are you?


I realize, they are used for a a variety of purposes, so it hardly constitutes an argument. He never closes in on Obito, from the moment he aims for the latter's skull. The kunai moves past Obito, who even manages to redirect it at Naruto, yet Kakashi doesn't seem to close in (notice his stance)... and considering it was Hachibi—a colossal beast—who had thrown him as a _*matter of great urgency*_, one expects Kakashi's momentum to be greater than the kunai he threw.



> 2) Actually it makes perfect sense that more focus would be on the final part of a special move, especially in a "teamwork saves the day" moment like this was.


Actually, no. Pick any chapter, these _focus_ _lines_ are used for more than just movements. Take the same #595 for starters, it's used to highlight Naruto's clone, when it's formed. Kakashi talks—the same lines are present. Guy talks, same. Kakashi is shown standing on the Hachibi's hand, the focus on Hachibi's hand. He's gathering chakra for Kamui, the same lines are present. Obito hits Naruto with Gunbai, the focus lines just highlight the point of impact. Mazou's shown, the same lines.

... _et cetera et cetera._




> It's not more likely that these guys can fly or air brake suddenly without mention than it is that Gai was in the fastest part of a Justu that is based on moving faster each time like they told us.


He's talking about the _punches_. This so-called drama for the 5th punch is absurd...

... Because we have seen what he managed to achieve with four of those five punches. Notice what happens:

1) First Punch: Madara erects a Gudoudama-shield; manages to defend himself.
2) Guy in quick succession, follows up with Second, Third and Fourth Punches: Madara is unable to mount a defense.
3) We are then led to witness the collective damage that Guy has incurred on Madara, as the effects of four punches together is shown: It's a horrible stomp, leaves Madara unable to move at all. The defense he mounted earlier—the Gudoudama-shield—dissipated.

Kishimoto set a precedence that makes it impossible to have a dramatic slow-down like the one you people are postulating. I am not against dramatic slow-downs, *but given what preceded*, the sequence should have depicted elaborately, Madara's bones getting shattered without the other four getting to play a part. Even if you wanted to give them a part, it should have been early on... and not at the end. Compare this 'Dramatic' Fifth Punch, delivered at a speed exceeding that, with which the previous ones delivered:

Madara has no trouble conjuring the Gudoudama-capsule. He shoots the remainder five Gudoudama at Guy. When earlier, Guy gave him absolutely no chance to defend himself, he casually whips out a defense here? This isn't a dramatic slow-down, it's Guy himself slowing down.

You people argue this is the punch, delivered the fastest, yet is unremarkable and barely holds up to the previous punches, which are far more dramatic. In case you missed, they are also slowed down for dramatic effects until all of it culminates into a panel, in which Kishimoto shows them together i.e. "Look folks, this is what Guy did". *This so-called dramatic fifth punch does not follow from, and does not add up to what precedes it. *You people are dramatizing by adding a bunch of slowpokes, when being fastest-delivered punch necessiates it should be just Guy, Madara... Bones shattering... Blood-spilling... Gore et cetera. You know, like the moment Kishimoto reserved for Night Guy.




> Nor is "Gai was moving slower but punching faster!!!" stated anywhere in the manga.


You have seen Asa Kujaku, right? Or the time when a half-dead, restrained by Mokuton, Guy cast Hirudora? _The magic is in punches:_ _"A taijutsu that hits you by pushing the air towards you... It feels like air-cannon. If 4-5 blows hit me, it will be hard... Most of all, I must not let his fists hit me directly..." — Madara, from the chapter we are *currently discussing*... 


How does he pushes the air towards you? *BY PUNCHING IT*..._

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 8, 2017)

Hasan said:


> I realize, they are used for a a variety of purposes, so it hardly constitutes an argument. He never closes in on Obito, from the moment he aims for the latter's skull. The kunai moves past Obito, who even manages to redirect it at Naruto, yet Kakashi doesn't seem to close in (notice his stance)... and considering it was Hachibi—a colossal beast—who had thrown him as a _*matter of great urgency*_, one expects Kakashi's momentum to be greater than the kunai he threw.
> 
> 
> Actually, no. Pick any chapter, these _focus_ _lines_ are used for more than just movements. Take the same #595 for starters, it's used to highlight Naruto's clone, when it's formed. Kakashi talks—the same lines are present. Guy talks, same. Kakashi is shown standing on the Hachibi's hand, the focus on Hachibi's hand. He's gathering chakra for Kamui, the same lines are present. Obito hits Naruto with Gunbai, the focus lines just highlight the point of impact. Mazou's shown, the same lines.
> ...


Lines radiating out from a point signify focus lines, such as on the when showing Soushuga for the first time wrapped around Gai which are clearly different front the movement lines on Kakashi the the referenced panels or the ones showing Naruto running with his mini Biju Dama 
It's disingenuous to say the lines mean nothing when when they are clearly different most of the time.

Why expect Kakashi's momentum to be higher than a kunai he threw when already mowing fast? 

None of his other techniques have been described as constantly getting faster each hit and involve home moving his whole body to change angles of attack.
Bad comparison.

None of this makes Gai or Kakashi able to fly or mid air break.

The rest of your argument seems to be you diddnt find fifth punch to be as cool as the rest and I really can't help you there.


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> Lines radiating out from a point signify focus lines, such as on the when showing Soushuga for the first time wrapped around Gai which are clearly different front the movement lines on Kakashi the the referenced panels or the ones showing Naruto running with his mini Biju Dama
> It's disingenuous to say the lines mean nothing when when they are clearly different most of the time.
> 
> Why expect Kakashi's momentum to be higher than a kunai he threw when already mowing fast?


... In what you are trying to extract from it i.e. Kakashi still in motion, advancing towards Obito after throwing the kunai. It is of no concern to me that there is a "Kakashi Incoming" highlight. The only point of contention is when he realizes, he can't reach Obito in time, so he straightens up (read: assume a different stance, mid-air) and throws the kunai. Onwards, the kunai passes by Obito, who then redirects it, and then Kakashi uses Kamui... all while moving towards Obito but never reaching him?

Compare to this Guy moving linearly towards Madara, Kakashi assumes around three different stances, while advancing towards Obito. He seems to be managing himself just fine, amidst the flight. Those focus lines are the least of your troubles.



> None of his other techniques have been described as constantly getting faster each hit and involve home moving his whole body to change angles of attack.
> Bad comparison.


I hardly made a comparison. It is in light of the over-arching discussion that you people seem concerned about Guy's maneuverability being tied to his hand movements. You can punch faster, without having to move your whole body faster. Guy, half-dead, dished out Hirudora. What's the fuss about him being unable hit harder and faster, with each successive strike without momentum? Considering this is a higher level gate, with more limiters removed, like all of them.



> None of this makes Gai or Kakashi able to fly or mid air break.


My case for Kakashi is discussed above. I think he clearly did (not fly, though), whilst you are caught up with focus lines. As fo Guy, the fact that it is heavily implied he stopped half-way through, and you are actively refusing to address it.




> The rest of your argument seems to be you diddnt find fifth punch to be as cool as the rest and I really can't help you there.


Inconsistent, is more like it. You people postulated Guy's maneuverability, but what should have logically followed from the said assertion is not depicted in the manga, which shows only four strikes done in quick succession, when it should have been five, had Guy's maneuverability been the determinant factor. To address this: "dramatization"; wholly unrelated examples are brought as proof this is dramatization for the final punch... There is nothing wrong with dramatization; the first four punches were dramatized in individual sequences, yet Kishimoto still depicted a top-down view, showing all four punches together, as to what had transpired. You are explaining the final punch with details that don't add up when they should.

My apologies for sounding rude, but none of you have addressed the problem. This is not how Kishimoto does dramatic slow down sequences (read the examples you and company yourselves posted). It sounds more like you people are desperately trying to give something to Minato, after his much needed "character development"—and pass on the "Kishimoto's terribly inconsistent writer, so just roll with it" sentiment, and I thought you people dismissed outliers.

To be clear, I am arguing under the assumption that the assertions of you people are correct... I don't think Kishimoto was inconsistent in depiction...


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## Jad (Jul 8, 2017)

You guys are clueless to what Hasan is saying.

It's easy.

1. Madara blocks 1st EE
2. 2nd, 3rd and 4th EE are too fast for him to defend against.
3.  Yet on the 5th Step (the fastest), not only is it defended against by Madara but he could also launch a counter to it.

How is that possible if he couldn't do that the previously 'slower' attacks but manage it on the 'faster' attack...

That's what we are discussing. The only logical conclusion is Gai slowing down. How he slows down in air? Possibly missing a few air kicks here and there to drop in monentum.

Lastly, EE in the Manga and DB are described as getting faster, not Gai himself. Gai can slow down and still hit harder and faster if he chooses too. EE is by very definition Elephant Air Canons, so speed 1 to 5 gears are attributed to just the attack, not Gai.

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 9, 2017)

Hasan said:


> ... In what you are trying to extract from it i.e. Kakashi still in motion, advancing towards Obito after throwing the kunai. It is of no concern to me that there is a "Kakashi Incoming" highlight. The only point of contention is when he realizes, he can't reach Obito in time, so he straightens up (read: assume a different stance, mid-air) and throws the kunai. Onwards, the kunai passes by Obito, who then redirects it, and then Kakashi uses Kamui... all while moving towards Obito but never reaching him?
> 
> Compare to this Guy moving linearly towards Madara, Kakashi assumes around three different stances, while advancing towards Obito. He seems to be managing himself just fine, amidst the flight. Those focus lines are the least of your troubles.
> 
> ...


1) skydivers can change body position while falling irl but it's weird Kakashi can change his while being thrown in a manga? Not really.

Also you said, the lines weren't consistent and now that you see that they are they're of "no concern" because your example doesn't work.

The ignoring parts of the manga such as motion lines
 http://www.narutoforums.com/threads/i-apologize-to-vegeta-fans.1105889/#post-57117157  isn't helping your argument either sir.

If they did to many actions for your liking I, again, can't help that.

2) When Gai uses EE, every single time mind you, he is freaking air dashing towards his target. You assume that's unrelated, I don't. 
You think he slowed down somehow even though that wasn't stated, I dont.
You think the description was unrelated to the speed he was using while in performance of the attack I dont.

Simple, not all this added feelings and Minato conspiracy and rudeness.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Movements are flexible. Being in Eighth Gate does not _necessiate_ Guy moving at constant speed. If Guy's movements are above them, which they are, then he simply accommodated for them.
> 
> 
> Chapter #595... He's moving just fine cutting through the rocks until he realizes he can't reach Obito in time. He stops his movement there; remains suspended (due to gravity) and there's no hint of any advance movement towards Obito.
> ...



lol no. You can't hit me with the whole" movements are flexible" argument. No matter what 8th Gate Gai is doing, his movement speed should be vastly superior to Lee, Gaara, Minato and Kakashi. Ay's V2 , which is massively slower than 8th Gate Gai, was capable of literally traversing several meters and appearing behind MS Sasuke before the later perceived his movements; and you are trying to tell me that someone far faster than that speed could instantly slow himself down to let several vastly slower shinobi outpace him? And this is all under the assumption that Minato telling Gai to finish his attack means that Gai slowed down? 

 You literally are making up stuff... Kakashi never slowed himself down in mid-air with some pseudo gravity ability. The scene just played out faster than Kakashi could even reach Obito. And the claim that Kakashi would have 100% reached Obito is erroneous, as you'd need to know exactly how fast Kakashi was traveling in the air. 

Nope. Because Minato started his statement *after* Gai had already begun his dash towards Madara. Minato being able to even perceive said movement( remember that MS Sasuke couldn't perceive V2 Ay and KCM Minato couldn't perceive mindless Obito) doesn't make sense because his reactions barely allow him to react to V2 Ay. Now the others being able to pull of moves despite there being *no proof *that Gai slowed down just adds to he fact that the feat is clearly an outlier. But I do actually want you to provide some insight on why you think Gai slowed down in that instance( despite it not being illustrated one bit) and how Gai( despite not being shown too) could slow his speed down several tiers instantly to allow Minato and Co to capitalize on the opportunity. Oh and then why Gai decided to slow down despite Minato telling him to actually proceed with his attack.

I guess you missed the part where Kakashi was asked to warp TSB away so that Gai could actually deal some damage and where Minato and co told Gai not to touch the black material.


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> lol no. You can't hit me with the whole" movements are flexible" argument. No matter what 8th Gate Gai is doing, his movement speed should be vastly superior to Lee, Gaara, Minato and Kakashi. Ay's V2 , which is massively slower than 8th Gate Gai, was capable of literally traversing several meters and appearing behind MS Sasuke before the later perceived his movements; and you are trying to tell me that someone far faster than that speed could instantly slow himself down to let several vastly slower shinobi outpace him? And this is all under the assumption that Minato telling Gai to finish his attack means that Gai slowed down?
> 
> You literally are making up stuff... Kakashi never slowed himself down in mid-air with some pseudo gravity ability. The scene just played out faster than Kakashi could even reach Obito. And the claim that Kakashi would have 100% reached Obito is erroneous, as you'd need to know exactly how fast Kakashi was traveling in the air.
> 
> ...


You just can't call bullshit and state something is an outlier just because you don't like said feat.

You're telling me 8th Gated Gai is incapable of slowing down his air steps? It's as possible as someone stepping on air in the first place. Missing a kick or two repeatedly would slow Gai down than him kicking constantly. Your other points are ridiculous, it's like saying 8G walking casually is far faster than someone running simply because Gai is in 8G...

Also you guys have obliviously missed Hasan and my point. Gai slowed down is evident BECAUSE Madara couldn't defend against 2nd 3rd and 4th step yet could completely encapsulate himself AND counter attack on Gai's 5th step! That's not possible of Madara to do if Gai didn't purposely slow down! Get it? It's not rocket science. Lee intercepting Gai with a Kunai throw and Kakashi appearing ahead of Gai are just MORE examples that further the whole "Gai slowing down" scenario.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> You just can't call bullshit and state something is an outlier just because you don't like said feat.
> 
> You're telling me 8th Gated Gai is incapable of slowing down his air steps? It's as possible as someone stepping on air in the first place. Missing a kick or two repeatedly would slow Gai down than him kicking constantly. Your other points are ridiculous, it's like saying 8G walking casually is far faster than someone running simply because Gai is in 8G...
> 
> Also you guys have obliviously missed Hasan and my point. Gai slowed down is evident BECAUSE Madara couldn't defend against 2nd 3rd and 4th step yet could completely encapsulate himself AND counter attack on Gai's 5th step! That's not possible of Madara to do if Gai didn't purposely slow down! Get it? It's not rocket science. Lee intercepting Gai with a Kunai throw and Kakashi appearing ahead of Gai are just MORE examples that further the whole "Gai slowing down" scenario.



The feat actually makes Kakashi, Minato, Lee, and Gaara look like god tiers, so if that's what you want then so be it.

I'm saying that Minato telling Gai to proceed with his attack after Gai had already started his dash( remember how fast Ay can travel after starting his dash and then remember how much faster Gai is) makes no sense. Because (A) Minato should not have been able to even perceive his movements and (B) that statement means speed up not slow down. Gai was never even shown to slow down regardless.

Was Gai shown to miss kicks? Was Gai implied to slow down? Why would Gai be able to begin moving and then slow down when other slower individuals cross ridiculous distances in split seconds?

Yeah but Gai wasn't walking. He was in the middle of a high speed dash that he put his life on the line for. If Gai really slowed down to basic Kage speed then JJ Madara could have just avoided the confrontation all together.

I disagree. Madara blocked Gai's intial EE with his TSB shield comfortably but was physically incapacitated and in pain after eating the second which created the opening for Gai to pull of all the other hits. And answer this simple question. Why promoted Gai to slow down? He started his dash before Minato even said anything and when Minato did saying it was more along the lines of "speed up." So why would Gai slow down?


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Notice how their are 4 air canons on Madara and when Gai is about to hit the 5th, it must be than when he decided to pull back his assault because of what's going on around him, then Minato yells out to Gai to continue forward. Gai can still slow down but continue the attack. That's petfectly fine.

This is evident because all 4 air cannons dissappear on Madara when Gai is using supposed his fastest last EE step.

Notice how I have all this evidence that suggest Gai slowed down. If Gai NEVER slowed down the 4 air canons shoukd have been STILL illustrated, am I right?

See, no 4 air canons on Madara:


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> Notice how their are 4 air canons on Madara and when Gai is about to hit the 5th, it must be than when he decided to pull back his assault because of what's going on around him, then Minato yells out to Gai to continue forward. Gai can still slow down but continue the attack. That's petfectly fine.
> 
> This is evident because all 4 air cannons dissappear on Madara when Gai is using supposed his fastest last EE step.
> 
> ...




That isn't evidence at all. That's literally just a posted scan that I've seen a billion trillion times.

That just means that Madara started to regain his senses and prepare for defense. It was clearly the previous air cannons that caused the Man to claim he couldn't move and added to the illustrations showing that Madara was in extreme pain. Even if you wanted to believe that Gai pulled his punch so that he could release it at point blank range( that would actually make sense), _*he still started his movement speed*_ before Minato and Co were put in the mix. So apparently they all can react to his movement speed which is far above what V2 Ay can pull off. Which is why it's an outlier and even if Gai did slow down, Minato should not have been able to react in the first place.

If you actually look back and analyze those feats( on my phone) you can see that Gai made one jump movement in totality to reach Madara in which Minato could react to whatever speed Gai jumped off air with. So apparently without a warning from Minato and zero indication that Madara was able to do anything( this was before he pulled up his TSB shield) Gai decided to just slow down? Doesn't make sense.


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That isn't evidence at all. That's literally just a posted scan that I've seen a billion trillion times.
> 
> That just means that Madara started to regain his senses and prepare for defense. It was clearly the previous air cannons that caused the Man to claim he couldn't move and added to the illustrations showing that Madara was in extreme pain. Even if you wanted to believe that Gai pulled his punch so that he could release it at point blank range( that would actually make sense), _*he still started his movement speed*_ before Minato and Co were put in the mix. So apparently they all can react to his movement speed which is far above what V2 Ay can pull off. Which is why it's an outlier and even if Gai did slow down, Minato should not have been able to react in the first place.
> 
> If you actually look back and analyze those feats( on my phone) you can see that Gai made one jump movement in totality to reach Madara in which Minato could react to whatever speed Gai jumped off air with. So apparently without a warning from Minato and zero indication that Madara was able to do anything( this was before he pulled up his TSB shield) Gai decided to just slow down? Doesn't make sense.



You need to understand this.

If those 4 air canons dissapeared, that means Gai chose not to in the end hit Madara with the 5th step.

That means Gai paused his assault.

Now do you remember that when Gai was hitting Madara he did so from a distance running circles around him. How do you know that in this panel Gai isn't still running circles (where he states 5th step). I know his still running circles because that's how he planned his EE assasult. If Gai chose to run in on Madara on his 5th step he'd walk right into the 4 air canons still passing:



And in this below 4th panel he only kicks off once thus indicating his intention to use only this monentum (however hard he kicked the air) to reach Madara. Considering the other panels that follow this show him NOT kicking anymore.



When previously his normally kicking multiple times



MORR EVIDENCE Gai slowed down darting towards Madara was that Minato had enough time to yell out a sentence to Gai.

Do you really think a sentence worth of text can be conveyed to a guy moving from Point A to B at 8G top speed !?


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> You need to understand this.
> 
> If those 4 air canons dissapeared, that means Gai chose not to in the end hit Madara with the 5th step.
> 
> ...



That can be explained by Gai wanting the attack to land point blank or him wanting his fist to directly connect with Madara. Which does mean that his attack was slower seeing how his EE is faster than his movement speed; but his movement speed still operates on a much higher tier than his other teammates. You, however, still cannot play the " he slowed down" card as he never had any reason too. He starts his initial jump before Madara pulled up TSB shield and before Minato could say anything. So there is absolutely no evidence that Gai slowed down, the evidence actually points to the contrary; Gai was on a time limit, he needed to kill Madara with hits in succession, and Minato told him to land his blow no matter what.

What does him still running circles around Madara in that panel mean? Not sure how that strengthens your argument.

Probably because the distance at which he was attacking Madara was smaller and Madara was floating in place as opposed to flying away? That still doesn't answer how Minato could follow Gai's movements after the first jump when Gai's plan was to hit Madara as quickly as possible.


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That can be explained by Gai wanting the attack to land point blank or him wanting his fist to directly connect with Madara. Which does mean that his attack was slower seeing how his EE is faster than his movement speed; but his movement speed still operates on a much higher tier than his other teammates. You, however, still cannot play the " he slowed down" card as he never had any reason too. He starts his initial jump before Madara pulled up TSB shield and before Minato could say anything. So there is absolutely no evidence that Gai slowed down, the evidence actually points to the contrary; Gai was on a time limit, he needed to kill Madara with hits in succession, and Minato told him to land his blow no matter what.
> 
> What does him still running circles around Madara in that panel mean? Not sure how that strengthens your argument.
> 
> Probably because the distance at which he was attacking Madara was smaller and Madara was floating in place as opposed to flying away? That still doesn't answer how Minato could follow Gai's movements after the first jump when Gai's plan was to hit Madara as quickly as possible.


Before I reply, riddle me this.

How is it possible Minato could spit out a detailed sentence to Gai and have him hear it if he was moving at top speed to Madara? Could it be because Gai wasn't moving at top speed?


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> Before I reply, riddle me this.
> 
> How is it possible Minato could spit out a detailed sentence to Gai and have him hear it if he was moving at top speed to Madara? Could it be because Gai wasn't moving at top speed?



That's the entire point I'm trying to get across. It's an outlier feat. Minato could do that because Kishi wanted to him to do that. He needed to emphasis teamwork so he decided to nerf the fuck out of the god tiers( or supe up the weaker characters) to accomplish such. If Gai really decided to slow himself down from God Tier speed to something slower than V1 Ay( lmao) without even knowing that Minato had a plan, then wouldn't Madara have capitalized on that pitiful level of speed?


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That's the entire point I'm trying to get across. It's an outlier feat. Minato could do that because Kishi wanted to him to do that. He needed to emphasis teamwork so he decided to nerf the fuck out of the god tiers( or sup up the weaker characters) to accomplish such. If Gai really decided to slow himself down from God Tier speed to something slower than V1 Ay( lmao) without even knowing that Minato a plan, then wouldn't Madara have capitalized on that pitiful level of speed?


You can't call bullshit and outlier, that's a cop out and just a way to avoid an arguement.

MADARA DID CAPITALIZE. Did you not see him shoot at Gai the moment he had the chance and shield himself?

Madara isn't dumb. He took the chance to completely shield himself. Just because Gai slowed down doesn't mean Gai's EE (a long range attack) does as well. Which is what I've been saying.


Veracity said:


> Minato could do that because Kishi wanted to him to do that.


So if Kishi wanted something to happen, it can happen? Like Gai slowing down is so unimaginable to you? Really man?


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> You can't call bullshit and outlier, that's a cop out and just a way to avoid an arguement.
> 
> MADARA DID CAPITALIZE. Did you not see him shoot at Ga the moment he had tge chancei and shield himself!
> 
> Madara isn't dumb. He took the chance to completely shield himself. Just because Gai slowed down doesn't mean Gai's EE (a long range attack) does as well. Which is what I've been saying.



But you do know outliers exist right? I mean we can't accept every feat in the manga because some of the don't make sense no matter how you look at them. That's why I count this as an outlier. It isn't a cop out argument at all.

I mean capitalize in avoiding Gaara carrying his slow ass sand with Kakashi riding on it to fuck Madara's entire day up at close range. Madara just stayed shelled up prolly cause Gai was moving at typical movement speed and the other characters were just upgraded for that single feat.

Gai's EE seems to be faster than his movement speed( or at least 2-5). His movement speed is slower but it's still faster than what Base Minato can perceive therefore it's still an outlier feat. My biggest question is why you think Gai slowed down? I mean the man was definitely aiming to land his 5th EE, so slowing down to let Madara cocoon himself in TSB doesn't make sense unless Gai thought he could connect directly with EE before Madara could capitalize. We know for a fact that Gai didn't do such because of Minato's plan as he started his 5th EE assault before Minato even said anything.


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## Hasan (Jul 9, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) skydivers can change body position while falling irl but it's weird Kakashi can change his while being thrown in a manga? Not really.
> 
> Also you said, the lines weren't consistent and now that you see that they are they're of "no concern" because your example doesn't work.
> 
> ...


Is Kakashi skydiving?

​How does #2 and #3 look like he is moving forward? By #3: Obito has redirected the kunai towards Naruto, and Kakashi is prepping Kamui—and still closer to the rock, he just cut in #1.

From my original post…



Hasan said:


> Chapter #595... He's moving just fine cutting through the rocks until he realizes he can't reach Obito in time. He stops his movement there; remains suspended (due to gravity) and there's no hint of any advance movement towards Obito.



I never denied Kakashi’s movement in #1; I picked on from #2 i.e. Kakashi’s movement stopped, when from leaning over, he straightened up to throw the kunai.

... I didn't ignore _motion lines_; I addressed them in an earlier post, which you quoted, but never bothered to address: They are used for more than just indicating movements to and from; I gave examples from the very #595 itself; one can dish plenty of examples throughout the manga. 



> 2) When Gai uses EE, every single time mind you, he is freaking air dashing towards his target. You assume that's unrelated, I don't.
> You think he slowed down somehow even though that wasn't stated, I dont.
> You think the description was unrelated to the speed he was using while in performance of the attack I dont.
> 
> Simple, not all this added feelings and Minato conspiracy and rudeness.


You are not addressing the elephant in the room: If your assumption is true i.e. Guy is moving at his fastest, then the sequence which and you and company are alluding as ‘dramatic slow down’ *should not follow from it*. This has nothing to do with my feelings; it is straight-up illogical. Madara failed  to defend himself from Guy’s punches, delivered at a much slower pace. The punch delivered at the fastest pace allowable, per your and company’s assertions, *should result in Guy delivering a harder, faster smackdown than delivered through previous punches without the possibility of Madara being able to defend himself*. If a ‘dramatic slow down’ should entail, it should be in the same vein as the previous four punches. This page, is where Kishimoto focuses out of the ‘slow down’ shows all four punches together. There should be five by the logic of you people. Madara failed miserably—was a sitting duck during the slower punches, yet casually dishes out defense by (and even goes on offense) by the time, Guy is prepping his fastest-delivered punch, because hurr durr… dramatic slow down? Hilarious. 


Minato’s comment; when he tells Guy to continue on with his attack. Oddly enough, is being used as justification that Guy was at his indeed at his fastest, yet none of you are willing to address as to *why Minato said it in the first place*. If Guy was already moving at his fastest, then the comment is redundant. It is obvious that Minato sensed hesitation on Guy’s part i.e. Guy stopped, or slowed down. The subsequent panels puts Minato’s comment into perspective: the Gudoudama-capsule was forming Madara, which Guy couldn’t hit directly. Then, Madara launched the remainder five Gudoudama at Guy. This is why Minato told him to continue attacking, but it sounds odd that Minato would tell to charge straight-ahead… Because implicit in Minato’s comment is that they (the quartet) would take care of the Gudoudama, which is what they ended up doing. Guy understood this. It logically follows that he slowed down to accommodate for them, so they could their job.


Why are you people not addressing all this? If it’s dramatic slowdown, then show it. Thus far, the arguments of you people have been: Kishimoto does dramatic slow downs, therefore this is a dramatic slow down; cited examples that prove literally nothing. What does the Raikage closing in on Minato has to do with this—from the post you rated as the winner of this thread? Hilariously, one can actually rationalize and make sense of this “Raikage” slow down; you cannot makes of the “Guy” slow down.



Veracity said:


> lol no. You can't hit me with the whole" movements are flexible" argument. No matter what 8th Gate Gai is doing, his movement speed should be vastly superior to Lee, Gaara, Minato and Kakashi. Ay's V2 , which is massively slower than 8th Gate Gai, was capable of literally traversing several meters and appearing behind MS Sasuke before the later perceived his movements; and you are trying to tell me that someone far faster than that speed could instantly slow himself down to let several vastly slower shinobi outpace him?


This is absurd; Gates activated (or any other mode, for that matter)  does not imply that Guy (or relevant characters) should always move at the fastest allowable speed. Was Kyuubi Mode Naruto always moving with his fastest speed, which rivals Hiraishin? No. The fastest speed allowable by Eighth Gate can distort space; where was Guy distorting space earlier, prior to Night Guy? It’s understood that Guy can move fast; doesn’t means he will always. I read your discussion with Jad below, seems this constitutes a considerable part of your argument.



> And this is all under the assumption that Minato telling Gai to finish his attack means that Gai slowed down?


... But you are not addressing why he said it in the first place. If Guy was already at his fastest, there is no need for him to make such a comment. You said, it was



Veracity said:


> Because Minato and Co didn't want Gai to stop his assault for any reason; like Madara using TSB as defense for instance.



Yet, the same TSB failed miserably, when Guy delivered much slower punches. If you people are postulating that Guy was at his fastest, then he should have stomped Madara harder, because he stomped the latter horribly with much slower punches. Why do you ignore the preceding events? And yet, this is precisely why Minato said it, because the subsequent panels do show Gudoudama-defense in place, and Madara manages an offense too. Why is this, if you are insistent on Guy being at his fastest? He didn’t even let Madara defend himself with slower punches.



> You literally are making up stuff... Kakashi never slowed himself down in mid-air with some pseudo gravity ability.


You misunderstand. I said Kakashi managed to stop himself, when he threw the kunai. Then, you see him suspended in the next page, when he's attempting Kamui. I said he remained suspended in air due to gravity, because you see, everything is floating in that fight.



> The scene just played out faster than Kakashi could even reach Obito. And the claim that Kakashi would have 100% reached Obito is erroneous, as you'd need to know exactly how fast Kakashi was traveling in the air.


It’s not erroneous, considering what happened. A lot transpired, and yet Kakashi doesn’t seem to have moved… amidst flight?



> Nope. Because Minato started his statement *after* Gai had already begun his dash towards Madara. Minato being able to even perceive said movement( remember that MS Sasuke couldn't perceive V2 Ay and KCM Minato couldn't perceive mindless Obito) doesn't make sense because his reactions barely allow him to react to V2 Ay. Now the others being able to pull of moves despite there being *no proof *that Gai slowed down just adds to he fact that the feat is clearly an outlier. But I do actually want you to provide some insight on why you think Gai slowed down in that instance( despite it not being illustrated one bit) and how Gai( despite not being shown too) could slow his speed down several tiers instantly to allow Minato and Co to capitalize on the opportunity. Oh and then why Gai decided to slow down despite Minato telling him to actually proceed with his attack.


None is saying he wasn't on move already; only that he stopped (or slowed) after seeing Madara mount a defense and an offense, which is why Minato told him to continue, because they were going to deal with Gudoudama, and precisely what they did. This continuation ≠ full speed, and implicit in the comment:We’ll deal with Gudoudama, which Guy understood, and accordingly toned down his speed.



> I guess you missed the part where Kakashi was asked to warp TSB away so that Gai could actually deal some damage and where Minato and co told Gai not to touch the black material.


I guess you missed the part where this is precisely why Guy slowed down. Madara miserably failed to mount a defense against much slower attacks, yet casually dishes it out by the time, Guy is about deliver the fastest allowable? Does not cut it, I am afraid.



Veracity said:


> The feat actually makes Kakashi, Minato, Lee, and Gaara look like god tiers, so if that's what you want then so be it.


No it doesn’t. You have assumed from the get-go that Guy is at his fastest, and inferring the remainder based on this assumption. Did slow people managed? Guy slowed down, simple. As observed earlier, I do understand that you are operating under the assumption that Eighth Gate Guy somehow cannot walk, or sprint like a normal human being.



Veracity said:


> That just means that Madara started to regain his senses and prepare for defense. It was clearly the previous air cannons that caused the Man to claim he couldn't move and added to the illustrations showing that Madara was in extreme pain.


If you are saying Guy was at his fastest, you should have *five punches* here not four, because you are saying that fifth was the fastest of the delivered punches. The scan linked earlier is the same event, as depicted on this page (read: dramatic slow down); while this one depicts individual strikes, the other one presents them collectively in a single panel. Yet, the fastest-delivered which should have been on this page is strangely absent.

Sorry, I removed the bits that had repeating answers (same arguments).

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Hasan said:


> This is absurd; Gates activated (or any other mode, for that matter)  does not imply that Guy (or relevant characters) should always move at the fastest allowable speed. Was Kyuubi Mode Naruto always moving with his fastest speed, which rivals Hiraishin? No. The fastest speed allowable by Eighth Gate can distort space; where was Guy distorting space earlier, prior to Night Guy? It’s understood that Guy can move fast; doesn’t means he will always. I read your discussion with Jad below, seems this constitutes a considerable part of your argument.
> 
> 
> ... But you are not addressing why he said it in the first place. If Guy was already at his fastest, there is no need for him to make such a comment. You said, it was
> ...


Why not? Gai's movement speed isn't like Naruto or the Raikage's,  he isn't focusing speed into flicker bursts, rather he's physically moving at ridiculous speeds and doesn't have to control the amount of per dash. The Naruto example isn't even neccesarily sound because Naruto (A) isn't always using his max chakra powered shunshin, (B) divides chakra between clones on the regular and (C) had to work his way up to being that fast. Even ignoring all of that, I shouldn't expect Naruto to be able to begin moving and then instantly slow his speed down so that PTS Sakura and PTS Tenten can react and intercept his attacks. You and Jad seem to ignore how much you claim he slows down his speed instantly. From 8th Gates speed to slower than Gaara's sand is a massive difference . Gai choosing to distort space comes from his maxed powered attack that kills him( which Madara still mentally reacted too). He isn't always using that speed because that speed has consequences. But that doesn't change the fact that his base speed should be much faster than Minato can react to you and you guys are still ignoring this.

Except there was no indctatoom that Gai slowed down. You guys are assuming he did without any actual proof. Gai literally says 5th Gate step and rushes towards Madara but he's slowing down? No.

Not at all; The TSB didn't fail at all. Madara just pulled up enough TSB to block the first EE( in the front), then was pegged from behind resulting in a combo leaving him incapacitated. I'm actually not insinuating that Gai was moving at his very fastest for that last attack; rather that Gai was aiming to land that last attack heads on as opposed to a long ranged EE. If you read( like you implied) my argument with Jad you'd see that I've stated that the projectile created from EE( steps 2-5) actually trump Gai's movement speed considering Madara reacted to both his movement speed and EE step one. I'm simply just claiming that any movement speed presented by 8th Gate Gai should be faster than anything Minato and Co can react to considering much slower speeds are too fast for the Sharingan to track. I'm also stating that you guys have _*zero proof*_ that Gai slowed down outside of unfounded speculation.

Kakashi doesn't have gravity powers yo. It's clearly a scene that's slowed down to see every moment. It's legit akin to V2 Ay being stuck in mid-air as Minato and Killer Bee pull off multiple movements. Kakashi was clearly moving but it's a manga. It's complicated to draw every scene at 100% perfection. There are mistakes that are needed to further the plot or focus on specific characters. Which is exactly what we are talking about here.

Madara honestly couldn't react to the previous attacks because he was incapacitated by the attacks themselves stating that he couldn't even move. Gai probably saw that his attacks weren't actually doing much and moved in for a direct blow, Which is actually outright foreshadowed when Madara states that he should avoid a direct blow at all costs. Therefore Gai, again, was relying on movement speed as opposed to the speed of upper level EE's, thus slowing him down enough that Madara could react; but the others still should not have been able to even see Gai. But do give me a reason why Gai decided to slow down. I actually want to know what you guys think.

Can you link me to where I said Gai was moving his fastest, cause I actually don't remember saying that. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. And what reason would Gai need to walk when he's (A) on a time limit, (B) trying to kill Madara with back to back blows because the man regenerates, (C) began his movement before hearing of any plan, and (D) doesn't even know the plan lol. Why would he slow down?

Except I never stated that Gai was at his fastest, rather any physical movement to kill Madara would have been too fast for anyone to react too.


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## LostSelf (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That can be explained by Gai wanting the attack to land point blank or him wanting his fist to directly connect with Madara. Which does mean that his attack was slower seeing how his EE is faster than his movement speed



You're not getting the point.

Gai's assault was so fast that every punch he threw clashed against Madara as if 3 Gais punched at the same time.

If those three steps were fast enough to still be all visible at the same time against Madara, then the 5th step should've managed to do the same.

How then, are not the Air cannons visible if Gai kept the extremely fast pace? How when Gai was running towards Madara to land the fastest step, Madara is able to look back, talk, form a shield and throw an attack when he was being Gai's bitch against other slower punches?

Minato can say the moon is pink. But if i'm seeing the moon white, then i won't close my eyes and say "But Minato said!" 

There are too many stuff that if you basically gather them all, it's just more fuel for Gai slowing down.

Gaara reacting to Gai's sand is just a kick to Minato's statement. Lee as well, Minato as well, Kakashi as well. 

And i don't know why people think punch speed =/= Movement speed. When Gai is the man known for having punches faster than his own movement.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> You're not getting the point.
> 
> Gai's assault was so fast that every punch he threw clashed against Madara as if 3 Gais punched at the same time.
> 
> ...



No yes I am getting the point, I think you are misconstruing what I've said.

Gai's 5Th step wasn't fired from a distance, rather he used his movement speed to cross the distance to probably unleash it at point blank range or directly.

Madara has already reacted to first step EE( roughly equal to Gai's movement speed) and Gai's actual movement speed more than once. For that last punch Gai was aiming for a direct shot as opposed to EE projectile as the projectiles weren't doing much.

But please do explain( Jad and Hasan too) why Gai slowed down despite all the reasons he should have been moving faster.

Not really. Because you guys still can't answer the basic question. Why did Gai slow down? I've asked that like many times and everyone goes silent because Gai slowing done isn't even supported. Gai using full movement speed makes more sense.

No it's an outlier to support teamwork. Teamwork outliers are pretty common.

Which is what I'm saying. EE( steps 2-5) > Gai's movement speed. But that doesn't mean that Gai still doesn't move faster than his other teammates can react too.


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## LostSelf (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> But please do explain( Jad and Hasan too) why Gai slowed down despite all the reasons he should have been moving faster.



Because if he didn't slow down, the TSB would've hit him or he would've crashed against the black shield that was preventing him from getting close, maybe?

That's like a very good reason to slow down.

Also, there's a misconcepion with Gai's speed or speed in general. Just because Gai can reach certain level of speed doesn't mean he has a minimal level of speed and it's impossible for him to move slower.

It's like saying a car can't move at 1km/h just because it can reach 150km/h. Of course Gai can go as slow as he wants as well as going as fast as his body allows him.


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## Braiyan (Jul 9, 2017)

Ok, let me see if I'm understanding the two opposing arguments correctly.

Side A is stating that 8th Gate Gai was moving at full speed when he was about to execute the 5th Step of Evening Elephant, basically when Lee, Gaara, Kakashi and Minato intervened. Said intervention would contradict earlier feats of these characters being nowhere near that speed level, and what we know about Gai's 8th Gate speed. Gai could not have slowed down because the Steps in Evening Elephant refers to both the speed of his punches and his movements, and Minato told him to keep going forward no matter what. Thus it's considered an outlier.

Whereas side B is stating that for side A's assumption to be true (Gai moving at full speed), Madara would have already been blitzed by the 5th Step of Evening Elephant just like he was blitzed by Steps 2,3 and 4 of Evening Elephant. Therefore the alternative would be that Gai slowed down. Which would explain why the team could intervene. 8th Gate Gai could have slowed down because the Steps in Evening Elephant only refer to the speed of his punches and he wasn't necessarily moving at blitzing speeds all the time. Thus Minato urging Gai to keep going forward is in response to him slowing down. And the other Evening Elephants not being present during the 5th one are also due to Gai slowing down.

Assuming these two summaries are correct, side B makes more sense to me. Steps 1-4 of Evening Elephant being similar distances from each other after hitting Madara supports the notion that the steps increase in attack speed, as stated by both sides.

But for Side A's argument to work, the aftermath of Steps 1-4 of Evening Elephant should still be there after the team intervened. Even if the outlier makes it so that Lee, Minato, Gaara, Kakashi, and Madara were temporarily as fast as Gai, it still doesn't explain why Steps 1-4 of Evening Elephant are suddenly nowhere to be found when Gai performs the 5th Step. In fact, the outlier needs those Steps to still be present in a similar form for everyone suddenly gaining 8th Gate level reflexes/speed to make sense. And that's ignoring all the contradictions that make the outlier an outlier (Gaara's slower than TSB sand keeping up with Gai, Base Minato showing greater reactions than SM Minato, Madara forming a defense _*and*_ offense when he couldn't with slower Steps). 

Whereas for Side B, the only two assumptions needed for their argument to work are that Evening Elephant's Steps only increase in attack speed, and that Gai slowed down during the 5th Step. The first assumption is reasonable considering Evening Elephant's Steps do increase in attack speed, and are a natural progression from similar superfast attacks that require only punching (like Hirudora and Asa Kujaku). As is the second assumption, if you interpret Minato's comment to go forward as an acknowledgment that Gai was hesitating.

Side B is a more solid argument IMO. It requires less contradictions and provides a simple explanation for the event.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Because if he didn't slow down, the TSB would've hit him or he would've crashed against the black shield that was preventing him from getting close, maybe?
> 
> That's like a very good reason to slow down.
> 
> ...



Gai started moving before Madara even began using TSB lol. So that argument is pretty invalid.

I don't agree at all. I don't see Gai instantly slowing down to speeds slower than Gaara's sand speed in the middle of combat after he's already began his dash. If Gai knew the plan was in motion before he started moving then sure, but after he already started rushing towards Madara with no inclination of a plan? No.

Gai is not a car, that analogy is not sound. A car is not jumping off air and a car cannot reach maximum speed damn near instantly like Gai has shown to be able too.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Ok, let me see if I'm understanding the two opposing arguments correctly.
> 
> Side A is stating that 8th Gate Gai was moving at full speed when he was about to execute the 5th Step of Evening Elephant, basically when Lee, Gaara, Kakashi and Minato intervened. Said intervention would contradict earlier feats of these characters being nowhere near that speed level, and what we know about Gai's 8th Gate speed. Gai could not have slowed down because the Steps in Evening Elephant refers to both the speed of his punches and his movements, and Minato told him to keep going forward no matter what. Thus it's considered an outlier.
> 
> ...



Except you have some erroneous claims for Side A. Or maybe I'm not even side A, more like side A.5.


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## Braiyan (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Except you have some erroneous claims for Side A. Or maybe I'm not even side A, more like side A.5.



Ok, what do I have wrong?


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Ok, what do I have wrong?


You could be right if you arent referring to me but I've never been under the impression that his 5th step means his movement speed also increases. That right there in itself devalues the claim that Side B is more logical. The way I see it is EE steps 2-5> EE step 1 = Gai's movement speed. But on that last step Gai didn't just fire the EE, he was closing the distance to land it directly or point blank; which is exactly what Madara didn't want to happen.


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## Braiyan (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You could be right if you arent referring to me but I've never been under the impression that his 5th step means his movement speed also increases. That right there in itself devalues the claim that Side B is more logical. The way I see it is EE steps 2-5> EE step 1 = Gai's movement speed. But on that last step Gai didn't just fire the EE, he was closing the distance to land it directly or point blank; which is exactly what Madara didn't want to happen.



In that case then yeah, you'd be more Side A.5. 

I still don't find it more likely for it to be an outlier vs Gai slowing down. But I can understand where you're coming from.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> In that case then yeah, you'd be more Side A.5.
> 
> I still don't find it more likely for it to be an outlier vs Gai slowing down. But I can understand where you're coming from.


It might just be an agree to disageee thing at this point. After debating with all these people opposed to my point of view for so long I don't really thing either of us will change opinions.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> But you do know outliers exist right? I mean we can't accept every feat in the manga because some of the don't make sense no matter how you look at them. That's why I count this as an outlier. It isn't a cop out argument at all.
> 
> I mean capitalize in avoiding Gaara carrying his slow ass sand with Kakashi riding on it to fuck Madara's entire day up at close range. Madara just stayed shelled up prolly cause Gai was moving at typical movement speed and the other characters were just upgraded for that single feat.
> 
> Gai's EE seems to be faster than his movement speed( or at least 2-5). His movement speed is slower but it's still faster than what Base Minato can perceive therefore it's still an outlier feat. My biggest question is why you think Gai slowed down? I mean the man was definitely aiming to land his 5th EE, so slowing down to let Madara cocoon himself in TSB doesn't make sense unless Gai thought he could connect directly with EE before Madara could capitalize. We know for a fact that Gai didn't do such because of Minato's plan as he started his 5th EE assault before Minato even said anything.



I've given you this reason. Gai can obviously tell what's going on in the background among his cohorts, similar to how he spotted Naruto was in trouble a massive distance away:



Gai can't hit the 5th EE step on Madara at close range because he had 4 air canons still 'alive' blocking him. Gai's plan was NEVER to hit him close range anyway, because if you noticed on his first attempt of EE he was just plowing them directly down on Madara burying him. Second attempt was the same.

Gai's 5th step isn't him going towards Madara, it's him still circling him. Hence he never landed the 5th punch, Minato told him to keep going 'forging on'.

Sorry man, but 4 air canons disappearing, Minato able to communicate to Gai to keep going, everyone catching up to Gai (Kunai, Gaara sand), Madara forming a defence and attacking, ARE ALL indicators Gai slowed down. Those aren't your outliers. That's one to many errors on Kishi's part to fuck up on for one scene.

You saying its an error judgement on Kishi's part to attempt in derailing anyone the right to USE what's drawn in the manga is a cop out. Especially when it's a simple explanation like Gai slowing down.

You're saying its impossible for 8G to slow down, but rather it's 100% possible that Kishi bungled this ENTIRE pivotal scene on errors. Really?

Think about it man, if Minato had enough time to communicate to Gai and have him register the info, that means Gai wasn't moving at top speed. Otherwise he'd of never had the chance to say it. That alone should be enough evidence. You're just crying "outlier" based on ONE point - "Gai can't slow down in 8G". That's bad.


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## Hasan (Jul 9, 2017)

@Braiyan, Correct.



Veracity said:


> Why not? Gai's movement speed isn't like Naruto or the Raikage's,  he isn't focusing speed into flicker bursts, rather he's physically moving at ridiculous speeds and doesn't have to control the amount of per dash. The Naruto example isn't even neccesarily sound because Naruto (A) isn't always using his max chakra powered shunshin, (B) divides chakra between clones on the regular and (C) had to work his way up to being that fast. Even ignoring all of that, I shouldn't expect Naruto to be able to begin moving and then instantly slow his speed down so that PTS Sakura and PTS Tenten can react and intercept his attacks. You and Jad seem to ignore how much you claim he slows down his speed instantly. From 8th Gates speed to slower than Gaara's sand is a massive difference . Gai choosing to distort space comes from his maxed powered attack that kills him( which Madara still mentally reacted too). He isn't always using that speed because that speed has consequences. But that doesn't change the fact that his base speed should be much faster than Minato can react to you and you guys are still ignoring this.


You seem to think, we postulated that Eighth Gate's speed is altered fundamentally; erm, no. Suppose, it allows Guy to move at the speed of 100; we only said that Guy isn't always moving at this speed. If Gaara's Sand Cloud moves at, say 20, then Guy can move at 19 *while fully capable of moving at 100*. Hence, the movements being flexible; Using Gates does not necessiate the user moving at a stipulated speed.

You are completely missing the point of those examples. Night Guy is still "Eighth Gate", whose speed you think can't be slowed down (or altered, more generally), yet here we are. Nothing whatsoever to do with the final attack.



> Except there was no indctatoom that Gai slowed down. You guys are assuming he did without any actual proof. Gai literally says 5th Gate step and rushes towards Madara but he's slowing down? No.


Except that, there is. Guy was doing just fine, until Minato implied otherwise; made evident soon afterwards. Minato's comment is definitive evidence, he slowed down, because it fits the overall picture; the manga is not a collection of isolated panels.



> Not at all; The TSB didn't fail at all. Madara just pulled up enough TSB to block the first EE( in the front), then was pegged from behind resulting in a combo leaving him incapacitated.


Failure in relation to their purpose, and Madara's ability. That is, "Gudoudama failed" because Madara was unable to utilize them to defend himself.



> I'm actually not insinuating that Gai was moving at his very fastest for that last attack; rather that Gai was aiming to land that last attack heads on as opposed to a long ranged EE. If you read( like you implied) my argument with Jad you'd see that I've stated that the projectile created from EE( steps 2-5) actually trump Gai's movement speed considering Madara reacted to both his movement speed and EE step one.


Evidently tied to the fact that Madara encapsulated himself within the Gudoudama, and slower people, working alongside Guy, were incharge of dealing with it.



> I'm simply just claiming that any movement speed presented by 8th Gate Gai should be faster than anything Minato and Co can react to considering much slower speeds are too fast for the Sharingan to track. I'm also stating that you guys have _*zero proof*_ that Gai slowed down outside of unfounded speculation.


Which is why I said, your argument hinges upon the assumption addressed at the top. You misread us.



> Kakashi doesn't have gravity powers yo. It's clearly a scene that's slowed down to see every moment. It's legit akin to V2 Ay being stuck in mid-air as Minato and Killer Bee pull off multiple movements. Kakashi was clearly moving but it's a manga. It's complicated to draw every scene at 100% perfection. There are mistakes that are needed to further the plot or focus on specific characters. Which is exactly what we are talking about here.


I never said that Kakashi had gravity powers; only that when he 'stopped' to attack Obito, he remained suspended due to gravity shift caused by the Mazou's tranformation into Juubi, which is why you see them fighting amidst huge floating rocks.

You are depicting humans in motion; it must be organic, regardless of the medium. Kakashi's transition is lacking in that. He would not have been able to assume the pose that he did, had he been in motion, when he threw the kunai. That is, even if you _slow down the sequences for elaboration_, there should still be indication to motion, if any. You can see it with Raikage; you can't see it with Kakashi.



> Madara honestly couldn't react to the previous attacks because he was incapacitated by the attacks themselves stating that he couldn't even move. Gai probably saw that his attacks weren't actually doing much and moved in for a direct blow, Which is actually outright foreshadowed when Madara states that he should avoid a direct blow at all costs. Therefore Gai, again, was relying on movement speed as opposed to the speed of upper level EE's, thus slowing him down enough that Madara could react; but the others still should not have been able to even see Gai. But do give me a reason why Gai decided to slow down. I actually want to know what you guys think.


All due respect, you repeated this several times, having read the post you quoted? I mean, I understand you quoted your part, but I have repeated it several times; none addresses it, but continues to demand proof? It's Minato's comment, in short, which makes no sense, considering what preceded and what succeeded. Guy slowing down is necessary conclusion; pieces everything together.



> Can you link me to where I said Gai was moving his fastest, cause I actually don't remember saying that. Maybe I'm wrong but I don't think so. And what reason would Gai need to walk when he's (A) on a time limit, (B) trying to kill Madara with back to back blows because the man regenerates, (C) began his movement before hearing of any plan, and (D) doesn't even know the plan lol. Why would he slow down?
> 
> Except I never stated that Gai was at his fastest, rather any physical movement to kill Madara would have been too fast for anyone to react too.


... But this is what I have been arguing from the start. I presumed, for after all you decided to respond to me, you knew what it was that I actually argued.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Hasan said:


> @Braiyan, Correct.
> 
> 
> You seem to think, we postulated that Eighth Gate's speed is altered fundamentally; erm, no. Suppose, it allows Guy to move at the speed of 100; we only said that Guy isn't always moving at this speed. If Gaara's Sand Cloud moves at, say 20, then Guy can move at 19 *while fully capable of moving at 100*. Hence, the movements being flexible; Using Gates does not necessiate the user moving at a stipulated speed.
> ...



Lol. Honestly your analogy doesn't strengthen your argument because you're misconstruing what I've said once more. If Gai had known the plan was created, then yes he might have been able to slow his speed down drastically before even attempting to dash at Madara. But you nor Jad nor Lostself can prove that Gai had any right to slow down. He wasn't in the position to slow down at all; seeing as he was on a time limit and seeing as he needed to kill Madara quickly to avoid the man regenerating. So the claim that Gai( without knowing that Minato had a plan) decided to push off at 1/10 of his normal speed for the hell of it doesn't make sense. You guys keep saying he slowed down but can't explain why lol.

I'm not missing the point. You guys keep saying that Gai has complete control of his speed and should be able to control it at essentially perfectly. I'm saying that such claim might hold water if Gai had a reason to slow down to begin with. But he didn't, so Minato should not have been able to perceive his speed the moment he began his assault on Madara.

Minato's statement is no proof at all. I'm taking his statement at face value which is simply telling Gai to hit Madara at all costs. If you want to incorporate selective interpretation and assume Minato's statement implied that Gai had slowed down then be my guest. I can't agree with that because Gai didn't have a reason to slow down to begin with; which is what I've been asking you guys to prove but with zero answer still.

It's not failure of purpose at all. The TSB did its purpose and that's why Minato and his team needed to create a plan to get rid of that stuff. What failed Madara was his reactions, not being able to react to the last set of EE's and being incapacitated in the process.

Ummm Madara was able to physically react and perceive Gai's movement speed on two separate occaisions. Madara being able to cocoon himself in TSB is a product of Gai switching to movement speed as opposed to EE not a product of Gai slowing down. The rest of the team being able to react is evidence of an outlier. Which happen quite frequently in teamwork situations.

I don't know what you are referring to when you say the top.

The assumption that movement portrayed throughout a manga has to be perfectly organic is exactly what it sounds like: an assumption. I can provide you with entirely different scenes that have characters seemingly suspended in air while other characters are still capable of pulling off attacks. These scenes are almost always linked to combination or teamwork attacks as Kishi is focused on neat and creative ways to take out villains rather than scaling each characters speed to perfection or accounting for real world physics. You're honestly just looking at this shit too deeply like it isn't a manga. Every manga has outliers and the reasons are clear.

So what are you insinuating with the Kakashi feat? 

I just disagree. Gai slowing down isn't the only conclusion. Like I said, I would agree if Gai had reason to slow down but he didn't in this situation therefore it's counted as an outlier feat.

If you are arguing for the excerpt then there would have been no reason for this debate. I don't think that's what you're arguing for unless I'm deadass misconstruing everything you've said today. Which is unlikely seeing how you stated you think Gai slowed down and that isn't what I believe.



Jad said:


> I've given you this reason. Gai can obviously tell what's going on in the background among his cohorts, similar to how he spotted Naruto was in trouble a massive distance away:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Spotting Naruto in the background =\= being able to hear and comprehend Minato's entire plan while fighting Madara. That's clearly far different so I don't know why you referenced the scene.

Yes he can because the air cannons would have been gone by the time he physically moved to land the blow. His movement speed is inferior to the speed at which his higher stages of EE travel; hence the reason Madara could follow Gai's movements of jumping off air and physically react to first stage EE. Actually that isn't proof that his plan was never to actually hit Madara. That just proves that his several landed EE blows weren't enough to take down Madara, ergo he goes for a direct hit; the very thing that Madara feared the most. After all, Madara still survived Night Gai, so Gai going for a direct hit is tactically sound.

As Gai rushed in for this 5th step, the words 5th step themselves appeared on the manga panel. Therefore it makes sense that he was aiming to land his 5th step directly on Madara. Which is why Madara could recuperate as he was then reacting to Gai's movement speed and not the speed of EE.

• The air cannons disappeared because Gai resorted to striking Madara at close range as opposed to attacking at a distance.
• Minato could give out a plan because the scene was an outlier that focused on teamwork. I know you aren't delusional enough to ignore the existence of outliers
• Lee, Gaara and kakashi being able to react are all products of an outlier
• Except Madara could physically react to 8th Gate Gai's physical speed before, so being able to materialize and control tsb isn't a surprise.

So yeah no proof.

Me accepting the existence of outliers is not a cop out argument. Unless you yourself dont believe in a single outlier feat in the entire manga. And I know that's false.

I'm saying it's impossible for Gai to have slown down THAT DRASTICALLY when the man didn't even know a plan was facilitated. His goal was to trash Madara, so dividing his speed by 30 is a terrible idea unless he knew the plan was created to begin with. Which he did not.

It's not a "think about it man" thing. It's an outlier. That's literally just it.

Honestly at this point, it's just an agree to disagree thing. I don't have the energy to pump out huge ass essays to argue against you both when the same material is being cycled through constantly. If you believe Gai reduced his speed from 100 to 10 for no reason then so be it. I just disagree.


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## Jad (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Lol. Honestly your analogy doesn't strengthen your argument because you're misconstruing what I've said once more. If Gai had known the plan was created, then yes he might have been able to slow his speed down drastically before even attempting to dash at Madara. But you nor Jad nor Lostself can prove that Gai had any right to slow down. He wasn't in the position to slow down at all; seeing as he was on a time limit and seeing as he needed to kill Madara quickly to avoid the man regenerating. So the claim that Gai( without knowing that Minato had a plan) decided to push off at 1/10 of his normal speed for the hell of it doesn't make sense. You guys keep saying he slowed down but can't explain why lol.
> 
> I'm not missing the point. You guys keep saying that Gai has complete control of his speed and should be able to control it at essentially perfectly. I'm saying that such claim might hold water if Gai had a reason to slow down to begin with. But he didn't, so Minato should not have been able to perceive his speed the moment he began his assault on Madara.
> 
> ...



Air canons still continue passing for some FEW seconds (2 to 3):


Next panel shows the air canon still 'alive'.

So yes Gai moving at top speed in 8 Gates would involve him getting hit.

When Gai spots Naruto, he looked like ant but could still notice his in trouble. Don't think Gai would not have spot Gaara's sand carrying Kakashi. You asked for a reason Gai would slow down right?

Anyways when Gai says 5th step, his still running circles and NOTHING happens for a period of time. Usually when he announces a step it involves a punch. Gai was not close to Madara when he states it.


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## Veracity (Jul 9, 2017)

Jad said:


> Air canons still continue passing for some FEW seconds (2 to 3):
> 
> 
> Next panel shows the air canon still 'alive'.
> ...



We're just gonna have to agree to disagree here. Neither of us is going to concede.


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## Hasan (Jul 9, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Lol. Honestly your analogy doesn't strengthen your argument because you're misconstruing what I've said once more. If Gai had known the plan was created, then yes he might have been able to slow his speed down drastically before even attempting to dash at Madara. But you nor Jad nor Lostself can prove that Gai had any right to slow down.





> Minato's statement is no proof at all. I'm taking his statement at face value which is simply telling Gai to hit Madara at all costs. If you want to incorporate selective interpretation and assume Minato's statement implied that Gai had slowed down then be my guest. I can't agree with that because Gai didn't have a reason to slow down to begin with; which is what I've been asking you guys to prove but with zero answer still.





> I just disagree. Gai slowing down isn't the only conclusion. Like I said, I would agree if Gai had reason to slow down but he didn't in this situation therefore it's counted as an outlier feat.


_It's implicit in the comment_ i.e. Guy understood it as them jumping in to deal with Gudoudama, when Minato told him to continue. Otherwise, it comes off as Minato telling Guy to go kill himself. Consider these two pages in question:

1) Guy begins fifth step. All is well, until
2) Minato tells him to continue.
3) The subsequent panels reveals that Madara in escapsulating himself within the Gudoudama; as well launching an offense.

In other words, Minato's comment is in relation to Guy noticing the Gudoudama, but he upon Minato's instruction continues advancing towards the Gudoudama, which is suicide (per your assertion), unless he knew what Minato had in mind i.e. dealing with Gudoudama, which is what they actually did.

Minato's comment is thus interpretted as: "Don't worry, we'll deal with it..."

From this logically follows that Guy slowed down for them, because they are slower than him, and he needed their input to deal with Gudoudama. It's teamwork: If you are fast, and your teammates slow, 'you' slow down.

It also explains your otherwise unexplainable claim of Guy desiring to hit Madara directly: He didn't use an air-punch, because Kakashi who he needed to create an opening, was manuevering closely beside him, and would have gotten hit.




> He wasn't in the position to slow down at all; seeing as he was on a time limit and seeing as he needed to kill Madara quickly to avoid the man regenerating. So the claim that Gai( without knowing that Minato had a plan) decided to push off at 1/10 of his normal speed for the hell of it doesn't make sense. You guys keep saying he slowed down but can't explain why lol.


Now you are circling back to the Side-A; had Guy no time, he would have stomped Madara earlier, when he delivered four of these punches in quick succession. Strange that you say Guy "wanting" to hit Madara directly but at the same time, him having no time...?



> I'm not missing the point. You guys keep saying that Gai has complete control of his speed and should be able to control it at essentially perfectly. I'm saying that such claim might hold water if Gai had a reason to slow down to begin with. But he didn't, so Minato should not have been able to perceive his speed the moment he began his assault on Madara.





> I don't know what you are referring to when you say the top.


Actually you are, because those examples were doing nothing except elucidating our understanding of "Guy slowing down". You seem to think, we implied Eighth Gate's cap speed itself getting lowered, which is why you were and still are insisting on his movements being vastly superior to the quartet's—and him "bound" by speed. That is, he can't slow himself down, yet the same "Eighth Gate" allowed him to maneuver fast enough to distort space... He sped-up whilst earlier, he was moving slower. If "Eighth Gate" is allowing him to maintain different levels of speed, why can't the speed be lowered enough to allow those, who otherwise can't keep up, keep up?



> The assumption that movement portrayed throughout a manga has to be perfectly organic is exactly what it sounds like: an assumption. I can provide you with entirely different scenes that have characters seemingly suspended in air while other characters are still capable of pulling off attacks. These scenes are almost always linked to combination or teamwork attacks as Kishi is focused on neat and creative ways to take out villains rather than scaling each characters speed to perfection or accounting for real world physics. You're honestly just looking at this shit too deeply like it isn't a manga. Every manga has outliers and the reasons are clear.


Er, did I misuse the term, organic? I mean, if you want to sketch a character running; you sketch it like it's running. That's how you understand the movements. You can't just randomly stick characters without providing any indicators to motion, and expect the readers to figure out, the character is in a particular type of motion.

Look at Raikage from the reference you provided, and compare with it with Kakashi: Raikage, although suspended mid-air, is drawn like he was pushed, and movement is indicated clearly; Kakashi is suspended like a decoration piece, with no movement indicated from the way he is drawn:

​
I mean, how do you compare the two? Merely imagining Kakashi moving forward like that towards Obito is hilarious! If Kakashi was in motion, as he threw the kunai, he would have been drawn like something to this effect, considering his initial stance (#1).


> So what are you insinuating with the Kakashi feat?


You had asked about how could Guy slow down mid-air... well, the same way, Kakashi did.



> If you are arguing for the excerpt then there would have been no reason for this debate. I don't think that's what you're arguing for unless I'm deadass misconstruing everything you've said today. Which is unlikely seeing how you stated you think Gai slowed down and that isn't what I believe.


What you questioned me about, is what I had originally argued, and still doing. You quoted me on that; am I to understand it differently than you objecting to it? The reason I think Guy slowed down, is the same as the I originally postulated; just turned into a wall of text, unfortunately...

... I think you slipped a bit; hence the confusion concerning Gudoudama failing, for instance.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Jul 10, 2017)

Hasan said:


> _It's implicit in the comment_ i.e. Guy understood it as them jumping in to deal with Gudoudama, when Minato told him to continue. Otherwise, it comes off as Minato telling Guy to go kill himself. Consider these two pages in question:
> 
> 1) Guy begins fifth step. All is well, until
> 2) Minato tells him to continue.
> ...



Like I said with Jad. We're pretty much gonna have to agree to disagree at this point. I'm really not trying to jump in a battle of attrition between you, Jad and potentially lost self. That's just too much witth not enough time for me. I also feel the same information is being recycled, so it's essentially just a waste of time at this point; we simply disagree here. You guys did make some greats points though, and caused me to rethink some claims made earlier.


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## Hasan (Jul 10, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Like I said with Jad. We're pretty much gonna have to agree to disagree at this point. I'm really not trying to jump in a battle of attrition between you, Jad and potentially lost self. That's just too much witth not enough time for me.


. . . Not a problem. I just think you are _way off the mark_, so I'll very briefly clarify below, which I think is needed.



> I also feel the same information is being recycled, so it's essentially just a waste of time at this point; we simply disagree here.


It is repetitive, because you thoroughly misunderstood us: We are actually *agreeing with you*; we are just trying to get your attention to the *expectations* that the manga must meet, should your viewpoint hold true. “The expectations are *not* met” is what we are saying. It is only in light of this statement, are we suggesting the explanation, which aligns with the manga. This is why you repeatedly stated that we provided no proof; you were asking the wrong question—

Take for instance, your argument that the speed in Eighth Gate can’t be maintained (root argument); I showed you that it could be maintained, so. . . [details]. . . Guy slowed down. To show that Guy didn’t slow down, you have to prove that he *can’t* slow down, your root argument. The rest would just logically follow. Simple as that.

Concerning expectations, I should clarify that they are *not* personal feelings, but logical deductions. . . Thought I should point it out, since a poster dismissed them as feelings. Basically, in your case, _"If Guy didn't slow down, [then this should have happened or this shouldn't have happened]"_.



> You guys did make some greats points though, and caused me to rethink some claims made earlier.


I am glad.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Infernal Imp (Jul 10, 2017)

Kamui GG? That went so well with Obito didn't it


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