# Most Akatsuki are just Elite Jonin



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

I wounder if people will actually believe me now when I say that the Akatsuki (except Nagato, Madara, Sasori, and Itachi) are just Elite Jonin in the same league as Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Kankuro, Mifune, etc... and the Kages unless they are handicapped significantly (I.E. Hiruzen with age) are more skilled and stronger Shinobi than them. 

One of the biggest counter arguments I ran into for this is people bringing up how Yondaime Kazekage was fodder (eventhough they had no basis for this statement), but now that its confirmed Yondaime Kazekage has amazing Jinton powers and soloed the Shukaku in the desert (who would actually beat most Akatsuki solo), its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.

And just look at the other Kages. They have Kekkai Genkai Expansions, Two Kekkai Genkai, have unique elements like Black Lightning, have nearly unbeatable speed, etc... 

I've said it once and I'll say it again Kisame, Hidan, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.


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## navy (Jul 6, 2011)

*Deidara* and Kisame cant beat Kages? I can understand the rest but these two are clearly strong enough, maybe even Kakuzu.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

4th Kazekage had Jiton, not Jinton. I agree with the thread, though.

*I guess I'll have to go edit one of my posts in another thread now.


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## LoT (Jul 6, 2011)

Well Orochimaru did beat one of those Kages after all


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## Big Mom (Jul 6, 2011)

You seem to be picking and choosing what exactly you want to say to support your argument. 

First, NO WHERE did Yondaime Kazekage say he "soloed the Shukaku". 
Second, no way is Mifune Elite Jonin level on the same ranks as Kankuro. Mifune is Kage Level as seen by him sitting amung them and being known as the greatest Samurai of all time. His Kenjutsu skills would be enough to kill most, and I doubt any of the Elite Jonin would be able to react to him, let alone stop a decapition from him. 

Next, I'd like to point out that Sasori IS Elite Jonin level, while Kisame is not[and Konan if you give her prep].


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## ANBUONE (Jul 6, 2011)

jonin means elite

sasori , soloed a nation( how big a nation unkown)

Deidara almost single hanldey wiped out the sand , if gaara had not stopped him

Kisame - single handed defeat a  swordmens who was welding what may be the strongest sword in the 7( he lost to guy becasue his justus was based on  absorbing chakra , a taijustu master like guy was the worst possible match up , hell he even said so . second if gate gate gives you power greater than the hokage does,nt that mean that 7th gates at least equals a kage

asuma , kurenai , theya re elite but i dont seem them dam near wiping out whole villages


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisame is clearly a Kage level shinobi.
Sasori is a elite jonin.


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## Deadway (Jul 6, 2011)

I find it hard to see Kakuzu and Kisame being lower then kage material... it took quite a few elite jounin to take these guys out.


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## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisame and Deidara are clearly Kage lvl. Hidan isn't, but Kakuzu and Konan are close to kage lvl.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jul 6, 2011)

kage= most powerfull shinobi on the village and the leader of the village. It is so hard to get that concept?

Most of the akat where kage level. and some where really close to it. 

They all where far above elite jounin. 
Kisame, Hidan and kakutsu they lost because of PNJ.  All kage level.
Konan could have been a kage, she had the power and intel. Only had the vagina against her. 
Deidera defeated gaara. enough said. 

Hidan got it worst because they did not let kishi show what he had planned for hidan. dam editors. Now the manga suck because of them. OOP out of line.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Il Void said:


> I find it hard to see Kakuzu and Kisame being lower then kage material... it took quite a few elite jounin to take these guys out.



Kakashi seemed to be pretty confident in his ability to take out Kakuzu. Similarly, Gai owned Kisame.


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## Klue (Jul 6, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Kisame is clearly a Kage level shinobi.
> Sasori is a elite jonin.



Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage in history, what the fuck are you smoking?

Believe it or not, feats aside, all of the Akatsuki members were top elite shinobi, just as these guys are (current and past Kages).


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

This could not be further from the truth. If anything I think this chapter should make it clear that most of the Akatsuki were ridiculously strong.

Itachi and Nagato are clearly way above anything the alliance have to offer except for Naruto. They are beast.

Madara at the time without his eyes was slightly below Minato. Minato was stronger than anything the alliance have to offer except for Naruto and Bee.

Then there is Zetsu, who we don't know much about, but considering Black Zetsu was fighting against the Mizukage and the her bodyguards he is incredibly strong too.

Orochimaru speaks for himself. He killed two kages, was one of the Sannin and had Edo Tensei as well as his strongest move Hydra. 

Deidara went into the sand and captured Gaara. He managed to create a technique greater than the Kekka Tota and is not finished in this war. 

Kisame is the perfect weapon for capturing Jinchuriki. He gets stronger the fight goes and has the most powerful of the 7 swords. Only lost once he lost his sword. Again clearly kage level.

Sasori killed the 3rd Kazekage, who was at the time the strongest kage in the sand. He surpassed all previous puppet masters and was able to control 100 puppets. Is the only person to make puppets from living bodies.

Then after this there are the lower members of Akatsuki, Kakuzu, Konan and Hida. Hidan is elite jounin, but the other two are stronger are kage level.

*Summary*

Itachi and Nagato stronger than any kage.
Pre Rinnegan Madara stronger than all current kages.
Zetsu mystery.
Orochimaru stronger than all current kages with the possible exception Raikage. Stronger than all previous kages.
Deidara strongest person to come from Iwa and stronger than Muu or Onoki.
Kisame has the most powerful of the 7 swords and was the tailess Jin.
Sasori stronger than kazekages and could probably give Gaara's dad and Gaara a good fight.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

Klue said:


> Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage in history, what the fuck are you smoking?
> 
> Believe it or not, feats aside, all of the Akatsuki members were top elite shinobi, just as these guys are (current and past Kages).



Strongest Kazekage in history isn't that strong. He got owned by Sakura and Chiyo.  

Besides, Sasori could have easily poisoned or used his genjutsu to control 3rd Kazekage. 

Did you know a weak shinobi can kill a strong shinobi just by a sneak attack. They are ninja's.


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## eyeknockout (Jul 6, 2011)

deidara has defeated gaara before without using his strongest attacks. kisame is a high level chakra counter which most kages have a lot of chakra, kakuzu was defeating kakashi and co. and his edo was said to have to be defeated by darui (perfect counter) and 2 other semi-fodders along with tenten and her legendary fan. only jiraiya and madara could stop konan (2 very powerful ninja's) without a lot of oil I don't see much of a chance.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 6, 2011)

I would have to agree that Itachi, Madara, and Nagato would easily be kage level however I would see it like this....

Hidan + Konan....not kage or even close
Kisame....is more suited as the most badass jin hunter. Could be considered kage level
Deidara - would not consider kage level
Sasori + Kakazu - Would consider kage level


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## Federer (Jul 6, 2011)

~snip~

Seriously, besides the fact that some Akatsuki members killed kages, took down Bijuu and Jinchuuriki by themselves, it's really stupid to think that they are generally weaker than the Kage.


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## Kraken (Jul 6, 2011)

KAKASHI10 said:


> Hidan got it worst because they did not let kishi show what he had planned for hidan. dam editors. Now the manga suck because of them. OOP out of line.


All Kishi wanted to do was show Hidan having a few more abilities with his scythe. He still would of gotten his ass kicked by Shikamaru. That wasn't changing.


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## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Kakashi seemed to be pretty confident in his ability to take out Kakuzu. Similarly, Gai owned Kisame.


You mean Kisame without Samehada against Gai with 7 gates? And Kisame only lost because he thought Gai's attack contained chakra...


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## Mathias124 (Jul 6, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Kisame is clearly a Kage level shinobi.
> Sasori is a elite jonin.



Yet Sasori is the only one to have defeated a kage (a legendary one to boot) and Kisame hasnt..

Sasori is obviously kage level, he proved that when he defeated the 3rd


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> You mean Kisame without Samehada against Gai with 7 gates? And Kisame only lost because he thought Gai's attack contained chakra...



That's not Gai's problem. He still beat the crap out of Kisame.


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## Skywalker (Jul 6, 2011)

You trolling, OP?


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## navy (Jul 6, 2011)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I would have to agree that Itachi, Madara, and Nagato would easily be kage level however I would see it like this....
> 
> Hidan + Konan....not kage or even close
> Kisame....is more suited as the most badass jin hunter. Could be considered kage level
> ...



How is deidara not kage level when he can fight the kazeagee without his most powerful bombs, take on the tschukage, and molecularize just about anyone in the manga?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

I have a Simple way to determine if someone is kage level or not.

I take one of the current kages, and if said person has a high chance of beating one of the kages may them be dead or alive. Then to me they are kage level.

Kisame i believe can beat all the kages besides Onoki, the Same for Deidara.

So kisame and Deidara who are cable of killing most of the current kages, how can you not call them Kage level.

Kisame Vs Tsunade= lol Rape stomp.
Kisame Vs Gaara= Water>Sand
Kisame vs Raikage=No more chakra.
Kisame Vs Mei= Fodder slow acid moves, Kisame stomps.
Kisame Vs Onoki= Onoki Flys pretty much good game.

Deidara Vs Tsunade=C3
Deidara Vs Gaara= C2/C3
Deidara Vs Raikage=C3/C4
Deidara Vs Onoki= Can go either way. 

P.S oh i forgot Mei Vs Deidara= C1.


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## Jizznificent (Jul 6, 2011)

LoT said:


> Well Orochimaru did beat one of those Kages after all


it wasn't shown how orochimaru beat the 4th kazekage. for all we know it could have been a quick assasination or w/e.

and not to mention that orochimaru is kage level.


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## Big Mom (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> That's not Gai's problem. He still beat the crap out of Kisame.



Yes, but give Kisame Samehada and his Health back and it probably would have gone different.


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## navy (Jul 6, 2011)

Complete_Ownage said:


> I would have to agree that Itachi, Madara, and Nagato would easily be kage level however I would see it like this....
> 
> Hidan + Konan....not kage or even close
> Kisame....is more suited as the most badass jin hunter. Could be considered kage level
> ...



How is deidara not kage level when he can fight the kazeage without his most powerful bombs, take on the tschukage, and molecularize just about anyone in the manga? Suicide bombing ftw


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## Klue (Jul 6, 2011)

In terms of strength, a Kage is someone with the power that could potentially reign over all the others within one of the five villages. It doesn't necessarily have to be, but generally speaking.


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## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> That's not Gai's problem. He still beat the crap out of Kisame.


I just disproved your claim that Kisame is not kage lvl.


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## Deadway (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Kakashi seemed to be pretty confident in his ability to take out Kakuzu. Similarly, Gai owned Kisame.



Kakashi thought he could take out Itachi and Tobi, doesn't mean he can when it gets real. And Gai is just anti Kisame lol


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> *I wounder if people will actually believe me now when I say that the Akatsuki (except Nagato, Madara, Sasori, and Itachi)* are just Elite Jonin in the same league as Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Kankuro, Mifune, etc... and the Kages unless they are handicapped significantly (I.E. Hiruzen with age) are more skilled and stronger Shinobi than them.
> 
> One of the biggest counter arguments I ran into for this is people bringing up how Yondaime Kazekage was fodder (eventhough they had no basis for this statement), but now that its confirmed Yondaime Kazekage has amazing Jinton powers and soloed the Shukaku in the desert (who would actually beat most Akatsuki solo), its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.
> 
> ...



I think Oro and Kakazu are Kage Level too

But otherwise, I completely agree

Hidan, Konan, Deidara, and Kisame are definitely not Kage Level


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Il Void said:


> Kakashi thought he could take out Itachi and Tobi, doesn't mean he can when it gets real. And Gai is just anti Kisame lol



Kakashi could take out Itachi. Oh wait, he never uses Kamui offensively. You're right.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

*A swordsman without a sword fought Gai who is his kryptonite. *

So much Kisame underestimation going on here.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> You seem to be picking and choosing what exactly you want to say to support your argument.
> 
> First, NO WHERE did Yondaime Kazekage say he "soloed the Shukaku".
> Second, no way is Mifune Elite Jonin level on the same ranks as Kankuro. Mifune is Kage Level as seen by him sitting amung them and being known as the greatest Samurai of all time. His Kenjutsu skills would be enough to kill most, and I doubt any of the Elite Jonin would be able to react to him, let alone stop a decapition from him.
> ...



The Yondaime Kazekage did solo Shukaku with Jiton, read the chapter



Il Void said:


> I find it hard to see Kakuzu and Kisame being lower then kage material... it took quite a few elite jounin to take these guys out.



Really Kakuzu can't even perceive Muu's existence because of his invisibility and he could be taken out easily with Jinton. Nindaime Mizukage is as strong as Muu, so its unlikely he's stronger than him ether. I don't think Kakuzu would be defeating Shukaku in the desert like Yondaime Kazekage did or how he would handle the Kazekage's Gold Dust tidal wave. 

And this chapter made it pretty clear that the new generation of Kages are all going to be stronger than them, if only slightly considering Sandaime Raikage's words. So Gaara, Mei, Onoki, A, and Tsunade will all be stronger than Muu, Yondaime Kazekage, Sandaime Raikage, and Nindaime Mizukage respectively

Sandaime Raikage is probably going to fight Yondaime Raikage and give him a hard battle, so he's likely stronger as well. All of the former Hokage's would own Kakuzu based on prior feats. 

So which Kages can Kakuzu defeat? The answer is none and thats why he isn't facing the Kages, but rather he's facing Jonin. 

A better argument can be made for Kisame, but we have only begun to see the Kages powers


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## Kurushimi (Jul 6, 2011)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Hidan + *Konan*....not kage or even close



Nearly solo'd Madara... with prep or not, she almost did it. Not many people could even push Madara to such extent. Plus, she is practically invincible, unless you have counter to her abilities(like Jiraiya). So your agruments about Konan not being even close to Kage level all suck(ugh, sorry, did you even had any   )
Kisame(beat KillerBee + other jinchuurikis), Deidara(single-handily defeated Gaara + the Sand... though if it was fighting in different area, I think that Gaara could have won, with nothing to worry about), Kakuzu(toyed with Kakashi) could be considered Kage-level too. Not much information about Zetsu. Orochimaru is a given. Hidan is not Kage level for sure(though he has the potential to defeat most of them).


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## Synn (Jul 6, 2011)

You consider Mifune Elite Jounin?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> I just disproved your claim that Kisame is not kage lvl.



So a 50 Percent Kisame, losing to his perfect counter Gai, who is Kage level.

Makes kisame not kage level.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2011)

Deidara beat a Kage despite being severely restricted, and can casually obliterate entire villages.

Kisame has defeated two Jinchuuriki- one of them being Killer B. He survived getting hit with Gated Gai's Hirudora, an attack that was said to be a one-hit kill, far superior to Asa Kujaku, which itself turned a 100ft. tsunami into vapor within a fraction of a second. He gets stronger the more chakra he has, and can fuse with his weapon, Samehada.

Kakuzu is the weakest after Konan and Hidan, but he had Kakashi totally outclassed in their fight and was able to pin him into a position where a killing-blow could be delivered. The only thing that could've even _potentially_ turned the battle around was Kamui, which Deidara has described as a Doujutsu on Itachi's level. To claim that Kakuzu is merely elite Jounin-level simply because he _might've_ been taken out by that Jutsu used by an elite Jounin is far too much of a generalization. Hell, Kakashi has come within a hair's breadth of becoming Hokage on more than one occassion; his rank may only be Jounin, but he's strong enough to scrape the glass ceiling of the Kage tier without actually being promoted into it.

With Konan and Hidan, though, you may be right. But Asuma did admit inferiority to Hidan, so even he's at the top of the class.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jul 6, 2011)

Jizznificent said:


> it wasn't shown how orochimaru beat the 4th kazekage. for all we know it could have been a quick assasination or w/e.
> 
> and not to mention that orochimaru is kage level.



yes oro was kage level and he win because of the edos. 




Klue said:


> In terms of strength, a Kage is someone with the power that could potentially reign over all the others within one of the five villages. It doesn't necessarily have to be, but generally speaking.



I see you are copying my posts and reposting  only changing the grammar 
very well its all good, I give you permission


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> I think Oro and Kakazu are Kage Level too
> 
> But otherwise, I completely agree
> 
> Hidan, Konan, Deidara, and Kisame are definitely not Kage Level



Deidara/Kisame>Kakuzu.

I agree that Kakuzu is Kage level, he was playing with kakashi and his back-up, and if it was not for PIS he could of killed naruto.

But he is not stronger then Deidara/kisame, so i do not understand how you can say Kakuzu is kage level and not them.


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> The Yondaime Kazekage did solo Shukaku with Jiton, read the chapter
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Think about what you just wrote about the NEW GENERATION of kages being stronger than the old and then think about what this means for Deidara in particular. 

If Gaara is stronger than his father, what does it say about Deidara, who beat Gaara? If Onoki is going to surpass his master what does it say about Onoki's student Deidara. We have already seen Deidara surpass Jinton with C4. The implication should be obvious.

I agree with you about Kakuzu being overrated and not strong enough to beat any of the current kages, but he is still very strong and could give them a decent fight.

Kisame was able to defeat even a weakened Bee. We have seen already that Base Bee is physically stronger than Raikage. We have statements from characters saying half the power of the mist swordsmen came from their swords. Kisame has the most powerful sword. He is another, who is clearly kage level.


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## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> So a 50 Percent Kisame, losing to his perfect counter Gai, who is Kage level.
> 
> Makes kisame not kage level.


I quoted a guy who claimed that Kisame is not Kage level and showed him why he is wrong. Which means I believe he is Kage level myself!


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> I quoted a guy who claimed that Kisame is not Kage level and showed him why he is wrong. Which means I believe he is Kage level myself!



ok just making sure.


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## Deadway (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Really Kakuzu can't even perceive Muu's existence because of his invisibility and he could be taken out easily with Jinton. Nindaime Mizukage is as strong as Muu, so its unlikely he's stronger than him ether. I don't think Kakuzu would be defeating Shukaku in the desert like Yondaime Kazekage did or how he would handle the Kazekage's Gold Dust tidal wave.
> *Kakuzu's experience in combat would allow him to adapt to his enemies abilities quickly, just like he knew how to counter Naruto and Kakashi. If he can't see Muu, he blows everything to shit, but I'm not saying he can defeat these guys.*
> And this chapter made it pretty clear that the new generation of Kages are all going to be stronger than the older generation, if only slightly considering Sandaime Raikage's words. So Gaara, Mei, Onoki, A, and Tsunade will all be stronger than Muu, Yondaime Kazekage, Sandaime Raikage, and Nindaime Mizukage respectively
> *Of course, but Kakuzu is following the new generations with his immortality. Kisame is a different story.*
> ...



I'll just provide these scans, and if you think an elite jounin can do what these guys do then whatever...Does it really take these many people to take out an elite jounin?

just testing the waters

and again 

just testing the waters


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

*Kage Level Shinobi*
Madara
Nagato
Itachi
Kisame
Tobirama
Hashirama
Minato
Hiruzen
Killer Bee
RM Naruto
Jiraiya
Hanzo
Orochimaru
Deidara
Muu
Onoki
Raikage
Gaara
Gaara's Dad
2nd Mizukage

*Jonin*
Shikaku
Shikamaru
Kitsuchi
Tsunade
Mei
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan

*Fodder*
Hidan
Asuma
TenTen


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## forkandspoon (Jul 6, 2011)

Ninja fights are all about Match ups, Gaara's dad trumps sand users.... Gai trumps Kisame because he doesn't rely on ninjutsu and Chakra.... Kakashi is as good as Kage level with his Sharingan and 1000 of jutsu.


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## Sasuke (Jul 6, 2011)

lolwut. Kisame would beat ten shades of shit out of Gaara in about two minutes



Turrin said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again Kisame, Hidan, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.



You can say it as often as you like, doesn't change the fact that its complete nonsense.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

Konan is up there, are people forgetting what she did?


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> One of the biggest counter arguments I ran into for this is people bringing up how Yondaime Kazekage was fodder (eventhough they had no basis for this statement), but now that its confirmed Yondaime Kazekage has amazing Jinton powers and soloed the Shukaku in the desert (who would actually beat most Akatsuki solo), its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.



Most Akatsuki members would sodomize Gaara, even in the desert. Hell, Deidara already did. I have no idea where the hell you're getting this nonsense from.



> I've said it once and I'll say it again Kisame, Hidan, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.



Deidara has already beaten a Kage. Orochimaru beat two of them. Sasori beat one and carries him around like a Pokemon.

Most Akatsuki are Kage-level.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

It took Choji/Ino/Shika/Kakashi/Yamato/Naruto and PNJ/PIS, to take down Kakuzu.

Now either the people i just listed are a bunch of weak chunin/jounin, or kakuzu is kage level. 

You do not need 6 people to take down *one elite jounin.*


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## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

A Kage is the strongest person in their respective village. Put any Akatsuki in any Village and they'd be considered Kage-level...

...except maybe Hidan. He got screwed by the editors. Can't Kishi just release Hidan's powers in a databook or something?


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Most Akatsuki members would sodomize Gaara, even in the desert. Hell, Deidara already did. I have no idea where the hell you're getting this nonsense from.



Deidara took advantage of Gaara's love for his village and it's people.


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## Agony (Jul 6, 2011)

this thread is fail.

kakuzu is easily kage level.why? kakashi was already nominated as kage and he's still facing problem against kakuzu when he has chouji and ino to help him.

deidara defeated gaara without using any of his best abilities.yes,u could say that gaara was trying to protect the village against deidara,well then how do u explain how he faired against sasuke?

kisame was stated to be the bijuu with no tail.with samehada,he is,and definitely kage level.

oro is stronger then tsunade,and tsunade is hokage.nough said.


the only thing i could agree is hidan and konan were elite jounins at best.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

So let me get this straight the argument for Kakuzu, Konan, Kisame, and Deidara being Kage level is such

Deidara is Kage Level because he beat a fresh out of the time-skip Gaara who was only promoted to Kazekage as a means to prevent Gaara from releasing the Shukaku, rather than his actual skills as a shinobi

Kakuzu is Kage Level because he would have lost to Wind Arc Kakashi, who has never been able to make the cut to become Hokage and has always played second best to the actual Hokage

Kisame is Kage Level because he defeated a B that had to protect two useless fodder and could not use his strongest form or strongest attack when fighting him.

Konan is Kage level because with extreme prep-time she was able to wound Pre-Rannigan Madara.

Yeah those are solid reasons to think someone is Kage level, rather than looking at the fact that Kages have abilities that far surpass their own and none of them could beat a Kage that we have actually seen fight all out. And every time they go up against a full power Kage level Shinobi they ether loose or admit their inferiority, I.E. Deidara losing to Hebi Sasuke and calling Sasori stronger than him, Kisame stating he wasn't a match for Jiriaya or any legendary sannin for that matter, Konan even with prep losing to Pre-rannigan Madara, and Kakuzu who was going to loose to wind arc Kakashi whose not even Kage level.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Deidara took advantage of Gaara's love for his village and it's people.



Gaara was in his home-town full of sand, deidara did not use his C2-Dragon or C4.

So your point is what.

Do you have a problem with Ninja, using the environment to their advantage.




Turrin said:


> So let me get this straight the argument for Kakuzu, Konan, Kisame, and Deidara being Kage level is such
> 
> Deidara is Kage Level because he beat a fresh out of the time-skip Gaara who was only promoted to Kazekage as a means to prevent Gaara from releasing the Shukaku, rather than his actual skills as a shinobi
> 
> ...




So what your saying is, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei, and the Raikage are not worthy of being kages.

Because from what i have read in the manga so far, Kisame and Deidara. Have a pretty high chance of defeating four of the current kages.

Kakuzu is kage level, because it took 6 people with the help of PNJ/PIS to take him down.

Now konan i agree is not kage level, but she can defeat the kages with prep time.


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## Reisorr (Jul 6, 2011)

What the fuck, Shukaku in desert beating most Akatsuki ? Stop smoking crack you fool


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## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

People are severely underrating Konan


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

^Yeah, that's it, pretty much, Turrin.But you forgot Gaara had to protect his village and that's how he managed to get defeated.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

Il Void said:


> I'll just provide these scans, and if you think an elite jounin can do what these guys do then whatever...Does it really take these many people to take out an elite jounin?
> 
> just testing the waters
> 
> ...



The first scan is off Kakuzu getting owned by a Chuunin ~ Jonin Chouji so yeah I think an Elite Jonin can do that. The second scan is of Kisame own Aoba and yes I think an Elite Jonin can own Aoba. 





arednad said:


> Think about what you just wrote about the NEW GENERATION of kages being stronger than the old and then think about what this means for Deidara in particular.
> 
> If Gaara is stronger than his father, what does it say about Deidara, who beat Gaara? If Onoki is going to surpass his master what does it say about Onoki's student Deidara. We have already seen Deidara surpass Jinton with C4. The implication should be obvious.
> 
> ...



Current Gaara will be > Yondaime Kazekage, not the one Deidara faced who was elected as Kazekage for reason that had nothing to do with his skill.

How the hell did Deidara surpass Jinton with C4, the jutsu never clashed so we don't know which is better. Though Deidara was shitting his pants when Onoki got serious. 

And sorry but Elite Jonin could also beat the significantly handicapped B that Kisame faced.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> So let me get this straight the argument for Kakuzu, Konan, Kisame, and Deidara being Kage level is such
> 
> .



at least read my reply. 
and your argument of konan, been a strategist is not been weak, its just been smart.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

Mathias124 said:


> Yet Sasori is the only one to have defeated a kage (a legendary one to boot) and Kisame hasnt..
> 
> Sasori is obviously kage level, he proved that when he defeated the 3rd



Beating a Kage doesn't make you a kage level shinobi. We don't even know how Sasori killed 3rd Kazekage. He could have sneakily attacked him or poisoned him. 

Gaara has not beat a kage.
Onoki has not beat a kage.
Tsunade has not beat a kage.
Mei has not beat a kage.
Tobirama has not beat a kage.

Yet they are all a Kage level shinobi. 

Next time think before you post.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Nagato Sennin said:


> People are severely underrating Konan



She's one of my favorite characters, but come on.. Without prep she hasn't shown much.. Not something that will put her on Kage's level, that's for sure.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Konan is Kage level because with extreme prep-time she was able to wound Pre-Rannigan Madara.



Yes, all the Kage's were in fear when Madara showed up to the summit. They couldn't do anything to him



畜生道 said:


> She's one of my favorite characters, but come on.. Without prep she hasn't shown much.. Not something that will put her on Kage's level, that's for sure.



Yeah because the Kage's surely could take him. They couldn't even hit him


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> She's one of my favorite characters, but come on.. Without prep she hasn't shown much.. Not something that will put her on Kage's level, that's for sure.



I agree with this, Konan and Hidan are definitely jonin level. No one's underestimating them.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

The killer bee that fought Kisame, would beat the shit out of anybody that i rank elite jounin, and even some that i consider Kage level.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> So what your saying is, Tsunade, Gaara, Mei, and the Raikage are not worthy of being kages.
> 
> Because from what i have read in the manga so far, Kisame and Deidara. Have a pretty high chance of defeating four of the current kages.
> 
> ...


Considering that none of them except Raikage (who is clearly stronger than the Akatsuki members considering how well he did against MS Sasuke) have gotten an all out battle yet. They can't be judged. We'll talk about Gaara again after he's defeated Yondaime Kazekage who inturn solo'd Shukaku in the desert. And we'll talk about Mei and Tsunade after thy have a full out fight and even Raikage will probably turn out to be even stronger than he seems now after he fights his death match against Sandaime Raikage.



Nagato Sennin said:


> Yes, all the Kage's were in fear when Madara showed up to the summit. They couldn't do anything to him


Yes Raikage was clearly afraid of him considering he immediately attack him. Onoki was hesitant of him but that was because of his prime powers, not his current powers.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Deidara took advantage of Gaara's love for his village and it's people.



Gaara was using the village to his advantage because of the terrain. Deidara simply removed that advantage from the equation by forcing Gaara to protect the village with all the sand he had gathered from around it. Gaara still kept his gourd sand for personal defense, and Deidara was able to get around that. So if they weren't fighting in the village in the first place, you could basically skip the part where Deidara drops C3 on it. He beat Gaara fair-and-square, even though he pretty much relied exclusively on C1, not counting the C3 he dropped to get rid of Gaara's extra sand.

He even said taking Gaara alive was the hardest part of his mission. If he had been more liberal with his use of C3, or even if he had whipped out C4, things should've gone a lot more smoothly for him.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Nagato Sennin said:


> Yeah because the Kage's surely could take him. They couldn't even hit him



With the knowledge and prep that Konan had, im sure they can take pre-rinnegan Tobi.There's a reason Tobi could not capture any of the Kages himself.


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## Dolohov27 (Jul 6, 2011)

Naw all of Akatsuki are Kage level, Madara is even above even before the Rinnegan upgrade, Hidan alone could solo most Kages.


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## DarkRasengan (Jul 6, 2011)

Kages are probably a step above people like Konan/kisame/kakuzu/deidara, then we have people a step above the kages (Jiraiya/itachi/Bee) who can rape those mentioned above, and are knocking on the door of top tier (Current naruto,Nagato,EMS sasuke).

Id say

Top tier
1.Naruto/Sasuke/Madara
2.Nagato/Kabuto

High tier
1.Itachi/Jiraiya/Bee/SM naruto/MS sasuke
2.A and previous Kages & Orochimaru/Current Gaara

Mid tier
1.Kisame/Deidara/Kakuzu/Current kakashi
2.Konan/Tsunade


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## Necessary Evil (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisame is the best jihnchuriki hunter,he can easily beat any juhnchuriki,and generally any heavy chakra based character,his jutsu feats and his abilities(chakra absorption which is the main 'weapon' that shinobi's use,he can heal from any damage,and one of the most powerful suiton jutsus are just too much) are beyond jounin level,also about kisame dont forget that he was able to assasinate several Daimyo,not that they are powerful or anything,but its certain that they would be well guarded with powerful shinobi.Some credit for that is a must in my opinion.


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## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

Hell, even Hidan can solo most of the Kage's without them having knowledge


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## Unknown (Jul 6, 2011)

Deidara had troubles to defeat the weakest kage of all, Gaara (who has 15 years), and he only got him because Gaara had to save his village. In a 1 vs 1 gaara would have easily defeat him.

In my opinion most of Akatsuki's were on kakashi's level, on Kage candidate level. Not in real Kage level.

Hidan was just a jounin level, not that far from Asuma.
Kisame, Deidara, Konan and even kakuzu and Sasori (who we don't know how he killed his fellow nakama the third Kazekage) are on Kakashi's level, Kage candidate/ Kage wannabe.
Itachi, Orochimaru, Madara and Nagato are Kage level, with Itachi and Orochimaru being mid to high Kage level, and Nagato high Kage level and current Madara above any current Kage, but probably still on par with his prime version with the Kyubi and Hashirama with the 8 Bijuus.

Guys like Mifune and Hanzou are Kage level, Mifune was danm fast, able to cut steel even without using chakra and very skilled in kenjutsu, he would be a low level Kage, able to kill Konan, Deidara, Kisame Kakuzu..., if the distance betwen them was close enough, and Hanzou can kill almost anyone just by breathing next to him/her, he is a mid to high Kage level, and he only showed us an small portion of what he could do.


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## SageRafa (Jul 6, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Naw all of Akatsuki are Kage level, Madara is even above even before the Rinnegan upgrade, Hidan alone could solo most Kages.



Before having his body broken by Tsunade and not being able to move , before being made into dust by Oonoki , before having his head chop of with some Lariats and Chops from A running circles against him , or before being crushed by Gaara's Sand without even making more than two moves but finally would you prefer Hidan melted with Lava or Hidan being decomposed by Acid Mist ?


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## ellodarlin (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro gave nightmares to a bunch of villages AND the Akatsuki
Deidara captured gaara, flew him without rest to extraction, then without rest took on Naruto and Kakashi
Kisame captured powerful jinchuuriki no sweat
Konan seriously gave Madara a run for his money, something only the Shodai and Yondaime had managed so far

I don't think Sasori's been shown to be nearly as powerful as these...


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Considering that none of them except Raikage (who is clearly stronger than the Akatsuki members considering how well he did against MS Sasuke) have gotten an all out battle yet. They can't be judged. *We'll talk about Gaara again after he's defeated Yondaime Kazekage who *inturn* solo'd Shukaku in the desert.* And we'll talk about Mei and Tsunade after thy have a full out fight and even Raikage will probably turn out to be even stronger than he seems now after he fights his death match against Sandaime Raikage.
> 
> 
> Yes Raikage was clearly afraid of him considering he immediately attack him. Onoki was hesitant of him but that was because of his prime powers, not his current powers.



You make it sound like defeating Shukaku is some big achievement, its just the one tails. It did not seem that strong when Part one naruto was fighting it.

Kakuzu and hidan took down the two tails, and Kisame took down the four and the eight tails. 

So whats the big deal.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

ellodarlin said:


> *Konan seriously gave Madara a run for his money,* something only the Shodai and Yondaime had managed so far



With knowledge and prep.





> I don't think Sasori's been shown to be nearly as powerful as these...



Sasori took down a whole country and the strongest Kazekage ever.


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## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> She's one of my favorite characters, but come on.. Without prep she hasn't shown much.. Not something that will put her on Kage's level, that's for sure.



You realize that the only strike against Konan is her getting owned by Jiraiya right? That isn't even a strike at all since he fucking _Jiraiya_. And he only took her out because he had a technique that was her specific weakness. How many shinobi will walk around with toad oil?

She is undoubtedly Kage-level. She was casually going around Konoha in the invasion and owning every ninja she came across to get information. Then she ended up in a fight with 4 Aburame clan members and came out of it without a scratch. _She also killed Madara_, but he overturned his death with Izanagi.

I'm sorry, but I do not see how Konan is not Kage-level. She might be a low-end Kage like Tsunade or Gaara, but she is definitely Kage-level.


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## Dolohov27 (Jul 6, 2011)

SageRafa said:


> Before having his body broken by Tsunade and not being able to move , before being made into dust by Oonoki , before having his head chop of with some Lariats and Chops from A running circles against him , or before being crushed by Gaara's Sand without even making more than two moves but finally would you prefer Hidan melted with Lava or Hidan being decomposed by Acid Mist ?



 Tsunade couldn't even beat part 1 Kabuto she aint fucking Hidan even with prep.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> You realize that the only strike against Konan is her getting owned by Jiraiya right? That isn't even a strike at all since he fucking _Jiraiya_. And he only took her out because he had a technique that was her specific weakness. How many shinobi will walk around with toad oil?
> 
> She is undoubtedly Kage-level. She was casually going around Konoha in the invasion and owning every ninja she came across to get information. Then she ended up in a fight with 4 Aburame clan members and came out of it without a scratch. _She also killed Madara_, but he overturned his death with Izanagi.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I do not see how Konan is not Kage-level. She might be a low-end Kage like Tsunade or Gaara, but she is definitely Kage-level.



Losing to Jiraiya is a strike against her because of the way she lost to him. He casually disabled her.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> You realize that the only strike against Konan is her getting owned by Jiraiya right? That isn't even a strike at all since he fucking _Jiraiya_. And he only took her out because he had a technique that was her specific weakness. How many shinobi will walk around with toad oil?
> 
> She is undoubtedly Kage-level. She was casually going around Konoha in the invasion and owning every ninja she came across to get information. Then she ended up in a fight with 4 Aburame clan members and came out of it without a scratch. _She also killed Madara_, but he overturned his death with Izanagi.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I do not see how Konan is not Kage-level. She might be a low-end Kage like Tsunade or Gaara, but she is definitely Kage-level.



Yep, she's hard to hit.But how does she take down S class nins without prep?


Yes, Konan is Kage level with prep, happy?


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## slickcat (Jul 6, 2011)

kisame to me is the most dangerous of all akatsuki save itachis genjutsu, I would like to see what samehada can do to intangible madara. Samehada just has an insatiable appetite, is alive and a valid genjutsu counter, wont be surprised if it devours amaterasus chakra.
 To kill kisame you have you use taijutsu, and hes plenty resistant, plus separating him from samehada, still doesnt change the fact that he can steal ppls chakra from their techniques.

He is kage  tier can match any character with samehada


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## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Losing to Jiraiya is a strike against her because of the way she lost to him. He casually disabled her.



Because he had the perfect counter to her abilities since he's the one that taught her 



畜生道 said:


> Yep, she's hard to hit.But how does she take down S class nins without prep?
> 
> 
> Yes, Konan is Kage level with prep, happy?



She's above that with prep my friend. No Kage can kill Madara, but she did. But anyway, if you can't hit her, and she can fly, how exactly do you defeat her? You can't if you don't have knowledge on her. This is why she's Kage-level.


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## BrokenBonds (Jul 6, 2011)

*Kakuzu*, Kisame, and Deidara aren't Kage level?

I'm confused.


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## WolfPrinceKiba (Jul 6, 2011)

The only Akatsuki members I would classify as elite jonin are Hidan, Konan and maybe Deidara. Kakuzu was clearly superior to Kakashi, he was beating him, Chouji and Ino just using two of his masks and Jiongu. Kakuzu's other two hearts weren't the work of Kakashi alone, both involved combo maneuvers with team 10. He could have possibly won with Kamui though Kakashi can possibly win with Kamui against a good deal of high level opponents if he chooses to use it, which he usually doesn't unless its a last resort. I don't think he can beat any of the Kages who have had a good showing(bar old Sandaime Hokage), though hes stronger than all of the elite jonins. Hes caught in the middle between elite jounin and regular kage.


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## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> You realize that the only strike against Konan is her getting owned by Jiraiya right? That isn't even a strike at all since he fucking _Jiraiya_. And he only took her out because he had a technique that was her specific weakness. How many shinobi will walk around with toad oil?
> 
> She is undoubtedly Kage-level. She was casually going around Konoha in the invasion and owning every ninja she came across to get information. Then she ended up in a fight with 4 Aburame clan members and came out of it without a scratch. _She also killed Madara_, but he overturned his death with Izanagi.
> 
> I'm sorry, but I do not see how Konan is not Kage-level. She might be a low-end Kage like Tsunade or Gaara, but she is definitely Kage-level.


She is Suigetsu lvl. Her biggest strength is the fact that it's so difficult to harm her! And with prep she can take out a Kage, but without, she is only high Jonin lvl!


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## Ra (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin are you fucking serious? Just because Yondaime had a ability that Shukaku was weak against does not mean he bested shukaku to the point other akatsuki's doesn't compare. I'm sure as hell Kisame and Deidara would make a sand box out of shukaku.

And for anybody that say Deidara and Kisame isn't a kage level needs to get chased by a dog.


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## chauronity (Jul 6, 2011)

Yes, hardly any of the former Akatsuki were the strongest ninjas of their villages (kage). Well, Itachi, Nagato and Sasori perhaps.


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## Corax (Jul 6, 2011)

> its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.


Well and yet Orocimaru (Akatsuki member) defeated him. Clearly Akatsuki members are in the same tier as kages or even above. Well except Hidan.


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## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> You make it sound like defeating Shukaku is some big achievement, its just the one tails. It did not seem that strong when Part one naruto was fighting it.
> 
> Kakuzu and hidan took down the two tails, and Kisame took down the four and the eight tails.
> 
> So whats the big deal.


Actually the Bijuu are incredibly underestimated. Kazuku and Hidan together took down the two tails, there's nothing that says ether of them could take down the Nibi solo. Like wise Deidara and Madara took down the Sanbi together. Kisame took down the Yonbi Jinchuuriki solo, but his techniques are perfect for Jinchuuriki hunting and Kisame does not make it sound like Roshi transformed into the Yonbi when he faced him considering he talks about how difficult Roshi's elemental fusion techniques were to handle and not the Yonbi's.

Basically we have never seen an Akatsuki solo a Bijuu. Now i'm sure their are some that can (Itachi, Madara, and Nagato), but Bijuu's are tough as shit to handle.

Shukaku from what we have seen and know about the Bijuu is strong as hell. 

1. Shukaku is so durable that Boss Summon physical strength can barely pierce him.

2. Shukaku can blast enormous Fuuton's and can even Rapid fire them

3. In this chapter we learn Shukaku is capable of controlling massive amounts of sand generating Sand Tsunami's the size of Gaara's, since Yondaime Kazekage initially thinks Gaara's sand wave was created by Shukaku. 

So Yeah I don't see Kakuzu, Konan, Hidan, Kisame, or Deidara defeating Shukaku in the desert solo.


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## Necessary Evil (Jul 6, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> *Kakuzu*, Kisame, and Deidara aren't Kage level?
> 
> I'm confused.



Yeah indeed,Kakuzu had the guts to fight the first hokage Hashirama Senju and he didnt have any serious injuries like Madara did.

Credit for that too is a must.


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## SageRafa (Jul 6, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Tsunade couldn't even beat part 1 Kabuto she aint fucking Hidan even with prep.



It's good you only have a argument for Tsunade , you admit the rest would simply mop the floor with Hidan , nice to know you admit you're wrong 

But yeah Tsunade can't just break the ground with one punch and bury Hidan band proced to throwing huge stones at him until he is resting in peace with Jashin ..


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## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Can I see a reasonable argument for Sasori being an _Elite Jōnin?_ Because I haven't see one yet.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> She's above that with prep my friend.* No Kage can kill Madara, but she did.* But anyway, if you can't hit her, and she can fly, how exactly do you defeat her? You can't if you don't have knowledge on her. This is why she's Kage-level.



You know that how?Konan had prep and knowledge, things The Kages probably won't need considering Tobi didn't try to capture them himself.There has to be a reason for that, right?

Yes, Konan is hard to defeat, ok i got it.. But not being able to hit her because she can become intangible, or able to catch up to her if she flies away from you.. is that truly what we can call *strong*?With similar abilities, Tobi was called "a weakened shell of his former self"


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2011)

Except for Hidan and Konan, all akatsuki are kage level. Also Deidara beat Gaara in his own turf and solo'd 3 tails without any difficulties. He would rape the shit out of Shukaku. That easily qualifies him as kage level. Kakuzu was also pretty powerful he ate guys like Kakashi(which you are stating to be on equal terms) for breakfast. Kisame... well he may not have the skill of a kage but he definitely has the raw power to equal things out. He owned Kirabi, probably a character which you believe to be stronger than the majority of the kages.


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## SageRafa (Jul 6, 2011)

Corax said:


> Well and yet Orocimaru (Akatsuki member) defeated him. Clearly Akatsuki members are in the same tier as kages or even above. Well except Hidan.



Was Oro still in the Akatsuki when he killed him ? I don't think so ..


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## shintebukuro (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:
			
		

> I wounder if people will actually believe me now when I say that the Akatsuki (except Nagato, Madara, Sasori, and Itachi) are just Elite Jonin in the same league as Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Kankuro, Mifune, etc... and the Kages unless they are handicapped significantly (I.E. Hiruzen with age) are more skilled and stronger Shinobi than them.



The problem here, Turrin, is your strange interpretation of "elite jounin." If the generals of this war are only "elite jounin," then what does that make Torune, Asuma, Zabuza, and others on that level of strength? 

And by the way, please don't put Kankurou in the same league as Kakashi, Darui, Guy, and Akatsuki members.


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## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> You know that how?



None of them have done it yet. You assuming they could with prep is just that, an assumption. They know of his abilities, yet they can't do anything about it.



畜生道 said:


> Yes, Konan is hard to defeat, ok i got it.. But not being able to hit her because she can become intangible, or able to catch up to her if she flies away from you.. is that truly what we can call *strong*?With similar abilities, Tobi was called "a weakened shell of his former self"



Orochimaru's greatest asset was how hard it was to put him down. If you can't kill your opponent, or even incapacitate them, then you will die. It's that simple. What's to stop Konan from going into the sky and raining down paper projectiles on an enemy? Even the strongest ninja still has to dodge a kunai to the face.


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> So let me get this straight the argument for Kakuzu, Konan, Kisame, and Deidara being Kage level is such
> 
> Deidara is Kage Level because he beat a fresh out of the time-skip Gaara who was only promoted to Kazekage as a means to prevent Gaara from releasing the Shukaku, rather than his actual skills as a shinobi
> 
> ...




Deidara never used his best moves when going up against Gaara and it has been said several times it is harder to fight without killing intent. C4 is one of the greatest moves in the manga. Also going by the theme of the manga, Deidara will surpass his master. He was unsure of whether Sasori was stronger than him at the time and only said Sasori was PROBABLY stronger than him after thinking about it. If you want us to believe Gaara improved then why didnt Deidara. It is very likely he developed C4 after his fight with Gaara and thus surpassed Sasori.

Kisame is kage level, because he was shown to be too much for Base Bee. We just had a couple of chapters explaining to us how Bee is a strong ninja on his own right without the Hachibee. He was able to react to Minato and is stronger than the Raikage. Kisame was too much for him. In the end it took Gai going 7 gates to beat Kisame without Samehada. Guy is the rival of Kakashi, who himself is kage level and was within a couple of seconds of becoming Hokage.

Kakuzu in my opinion is one of the weaker Akatsuki members, but he is still kage level. Say what you want about Kakashi, but it is said time and time again he is strong enough to be Hokage. Kakuzu could give him serious trouble. Being able to use all 5 elements also makes him a versatile fight and he has near a 100 years of experience.

Konan and Hidan I cannot defend.


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## Jak N Blak (Jul 6, 2011)

Man....alot of Akatsuki are worthy to hang with the Kages.
Esspecially:

1. Sasori - without knowledge he is as undefeatable as the Six Paths in a 1v1 fight.
2. Deidara - C4 aint no joke. Flight speed epic.
3. Kisame is a given
4. Kakuzu -Only Kages I dont see him giving a hard time to is Raikage & maybe Oonoki.

Lord Itachi & Nagato...is another case lol.


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## bearzerger (Jul 6, 2011)

It happens rarely, but I have to agree with Turrin. Most of the Akatsuki were below the level of the current kages. They were strong no doubt, but only Nagato, Itachi, Orochimaru and Tobi had the potential. And of those four Orochimaru destroyed his own body with his experiments and Itachi's body was destroyed by an illness. I wouldn't hesitate to say that at the end those two would have lost to any of the current kages as well. 

People can bring up Deidara beating Gaara how often they like, Deidara won for the same reason Shikamaru could beat Hidan or why less skilled shinobi can defeat the Edo Tensei. Besides the current Gaara will no doubt show himself to be much improved, which will go on to show that he has grown into his role as kage.

Same with Kakuzu going head to head with Shodai, if he did he must have gotten his ass kicked, cause he couldn't even keep up with Naruto way back after the first FRS training.

Or Sasori destroying a country. That's just meaningless hype. He lost to his granny and Sakura that says it all. And even if he killed the 3rd Kazekage, that doesn't mean much. Kakashi or even Yamato could easily kill the current Naruto as well, if only simply for the fact that he would never expect a betrayal and would find himself to be hesitating in the deciding moments. That's the advantage of a traitor.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

> None of them have done it yet. You assuming they could with prep is just that, an assumption. They know of his abilities, yet they can't do anything about it.



I would like to see Tobi go after Konan with army of Zetsus, Gedo Mazo + Edo Tensei.Tobi met Konan alone.That's why she got as far as she did.If Tobi came after The Alliance alone, he would've been long dead already.There's a reason he couldn't capture The Kages.



> Orochimaru's greatest asset was how hard it was to put him down. If you can't kill your opponent,



He had a lot of high level atack jutsu as well.






> or even incapacitate them, then you will die.



Of boredom?





> It's that simple. What's to stop Konan from going into the sky and raining down paper projectiles on an enemy? Even the strongest ninja still has to dodge a kunai to the face.




What's stopping random fodder from hiding behind a tree or a rock till she runs out?


And not every high level nin needs to dodge kunais.I don't know if heard but there are such things as Shinra Tensei, Sand Shield, turning intangible..


----------



## Kisame (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisame is not Kage-level?

Are you gay?


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

If anything, this chapter only reinforced further that Kisame is Kage level. Kisame is supposed to be elite jounin because 4th kazekage can take Gaara/Shukaku in the desert? Lolwut.

Guess what? Kisame can also fight Gaara or Shukaku in the desert, since Gaara's sand becomes dulled when it's heavier. The reason why Kazekage can take on Gaara is the same as Kisame's would be. So the argument completely comes to a hold. 

Not to mention Daikodan or waterdome could always take away Gaara's control over the sand to begin with, without the recent knowledge that Gaara can't control his sand when it's heavier.

If 4th Kazekage is kage level for being able to take on Shukaku in the desert, then Kisame certainly is Kage level too.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisame is not beating Gaara in a desert by any stretch of the imagination. Kisame may be able to make Gaara's sand heavier, but Gaara has much more sand than Kisame does water.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Why not? Water makes sand heavier, Kisame can make loads of water, and Gaara can't control when it's too heavy.

1 + 1 = 2


----------



## Raidoton (Jul 6, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> It happens rarely, but I have to agree with Turrin. Most of the Akatsuki were below the level of the current kages. They were strong no doubt, but only Nagato, Itachi, Orochimaru and Tobi had the potential. And of those four Orochimaru destroyed his own body with his experiments and Itachi's body was destroyed by an illness. I wouldn't hesitate to say that at the end those two would have lost to any of the current kages as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## HawkMan (Jul 6, 2011)

I'll chime in with the resounding chorus, you're analysis seems deeply flawed. You're stating 40% of Akatsuki is beyond the present Kages, yet "most" are elite Jonin. Of the remaining 60% that encompasses your majority, there's Kakuzu, Kisame, Orochimaru, and Deidara that most certainly broach the Kage level. You could say Konan and Hidan are Elite Jonin, but we all know why their included in Akatsuki. 

It may have started with a bunch of elite Jonin, but it certainly became a deadly group of Kage-level shinobi.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 6, 2011)

Hidan is.  As for the rest.  A few do seem to lack the overall skills at least to be at such a level.  Falling prey to elementary tactics.

- Konan being owning in a page by jiraiya's oil.  

- Kisame being blitzed by Gai and Killer bee

- Sasori falling for Sakura's "play dead" routine and then some

- Kakuzu falling for a bunshin feint despite naruto already attempting the tactics like a minute before

When you think about it.  They would have all died had it not been for being saved, or some high durability source.  Be it Samehada, extra hearts, or an transferable heart.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Why not? Water makes sand heavier, Kisame can make loads of water, and Gaara can't control when it's too heavy.
> 
> 1 + 1 = 2



I'm aware. Gaara has infinitely more sand with incredible speed feats. Kisame has a dome of water and a lake.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Kisame is not beating Gaara in a desert by any stretch of the imagination. Kisame may be able to make Gaara's sand heavier, but Gaara has much more sand than Kisame does water.



Yeah, uh, I think you may have forgotten how much water Kisame can make. And Gaara's control over normal sand isn't nearly as good as his special personal sand.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

I have forgetten anything. If Gaara is in the desert, he has more sand than Kisame does water.

I don't recall stating anything about Gaara's manipulation over said sand, but he has shown far more skill with it than Kisame has with _Suitons._


----------



## KillerFlow (Jul 6, 2011)

Without this and that upgrades (black hearts, Jashin, etc) most of Akatsuki at best are just low level jonins.


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

Final Jutsu said:


> Hidan is.  As for the rest.  A few do seem to lack the overall skills at least to be at such a level.  Falling prey to elementary tactics.
> 
> - Konan being owning in a page by jiraiya's oil.
> 
> ...



Konan, the only one to force Madara to use Izanagi
Sasori, soloing a Country and killing the 3rd
Kisame could handle these Kage's


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

How can Gaara even touch Kisame inside the waterdome? Or underwater, period? A lake is all he needs to be underwater.

Even if Kisame does not use water, he can absorb jutsu through his skin, so any underground crushing effort fails due to there not being any chakra to do it with. And he can swim through the ground at high speeds.

As for speed: Daikodan was fired as fast as Hirodura. I think we all remember Gaara's speed limits versus gates. Remember that Kisame is surrounded by water when he uses Daikodan. He can pull that off faster than any of Gaara's sand can touch him.


----------



## Thor (Jul 6, 2011)

Upgrades and jutsu are part of their strength NF 

That's the point of the whole manga


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> Kisame is not beating Gaara in a desert by any stretch of the imagination. Kisame may be able to make Gaara's sand heavier, but Gaara has much more sand than Kisame does water.



Why not, kisame has biju level chakra, he can make as much water as he wants.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Nagato Sennin said:


> Konan, the only one to force Madara to use Izanagi



You keep hyping this stunt up. She had extensive prep time. She had the luxury of being around him for many years. She's not pulling this stunt on the fly while in a battle. We've seen what happens when she goes in without prep. She gets owned in a panel by oil.


----------



## Final Jutsu (Jul 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Upgrades and jutsu are part of their strength NF
> 
> That's the point of the whole manga




Yes, and with such things it does place a few at the Kage level.  That doesn't change the fact that they lack the overall skill most kages have displayed.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 6, 2011)

Bearzerger said:
			
		

> Or Sasori destroying a country. That's just meaningless hype. He lost to his granny and Sakura that says it all. And even if he killed the 3rd Kazekage, that doesn't mean much. Kakashi or even Yamato could easily kill the current Naruto as well, if only simply for the fact that he would never expect a betrayal and would find himself to be hesitating in the deciding moments. That's the advantage of a traitor.



It isn't fair to attribute Sasori's defeat of the strongest Kazekage as an ambush from a traitor. The 3rd Kazekage was specifically mentioned and specifically hyped to, in turn, hype Sasori. I don't think the author intended for us to criticize it.

And if Chiyo beat him, then it doesn't mean he's weak, but just that Chiyo is really strong. She's one of the 2 "great siblings." And let's not pretend like Sasori didn't meet his counter in Sakura's antidotes, or that he didn't subconsciously allow his parents to "embrace" him.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> How can Gaara even touch Kisame inside the waterdome? Or underwater, period? A lake is all he needs to be underwater.
> 
> Even if Kisame does not use water, he can absorb jutsu through his skin, so any underground crushing effort fails due to there not being any chakra to do it with. And he can swim through the ground at high speeds.



If Gaara manages to sink Kisame underground, then it's game over. Just pressurize the top material and let gravity do the rest.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> If Gaara manages to sink Kisame underground, then it's game over. Just pressurize the top material and let gravity do the rest.



Kisame can swim underground. He has doton affinity.


----------



## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I would like to see Tobi go after Konan with army of Zetsus, Gedo Mazo + Edo Tensei.Tobi met Konan alone.That's why she got as far as she did.If Tobi came after The Alliance alone, he would've been long dead already.There's a reason he couldn't capture The Kages.



He came to the summit alone did he not? When he went on the battlefield he got separated from Gedo MAzo did he not? Come on bro.



畜生道 said:


> He had a lot of high level atack jutsu as well.



And I am not disregarding that at all. That's why I said his "greatest asset", never did I say his "only asset". Just as Orochimaru has jutsus to compliment his nigh invulnerability, so does Konan.



畜生道 said:


> Of boredom?



Yeah, but the paper projectiles would probably get them first 



畜生道 said:


> What's stopping random fodder from hiding behind a tree or a rock till she runs out?



She's never been shown to run out. That has never even been hinted at either.



畜生道 said:


> And not every high level nin needs to dodge kunais.I don't know if heard but there are such things as Shinra Tensei, Sand Shield, turning intangible..



Exactly. No High-Level ninja is willing to take a Kunai to the face. My point exactly. When you get all the Shinra Tenseis, and Rasenshurikens out there, sometimes people forget that these shinobi are human and can die from something as simple as a shuriken.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Anyway just because some of the old kages can do some cool stuff does not mean this generation is garbage.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Kisame can swim underground. He has doton affinity.



Assuming he'd be able to make such movements. He would be under quite a bit of pressure. Oh, and his affinity is suiton. He can use doton, though.


----------



## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

KillerFlow said:


> Without this and that upgrades (black hearts, Jashin, etc) most of Akatsuki at best are just low level jonins.



You could say the same thing about Naruto and Sasuke if you took away their clones, Kyuubi, Rasengan, Sage mode, Raiton, Sharingan, etc.


----------



## Nagato Sennin (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> You keep hyping this stunt up. She had extensive prep time. She had the luxury of being around him for many years. She's not pulling this stunt on the fly while in a battle. We've seen what happens when she goes in without prep. She gets owned in a panel by oil.



Yes because Jiraiya knew her one weakness. No one can use oil that's human but Jiraiya.


----------



## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

Nagato Sennin said:


> Yes because Jiraiya knew her one weakness. No one can use oil but Jiraiya.



Precisely my point dear fellow.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Assuming he'd be able to make such movements. He would be under quite a bit of pressure. Oh, and his affinity is suiton. He can use doton, though.



It's both. You can look it up in many places.

Same applies for anyone who uses doton to move underground. Yet, they do.


----------



## joshhookway (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I wounder if people will actually believe me now when I say that the Akatsuki (except Nagato, Madara, Sasori, and Itachi) are just Elite Jonin in the same league as Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Kankuro, Mifune, etc... and the Kages unless they are handicapped significantly (I.E. Hiruzen with age) are more skilled and stronger Shinobi than them.
> 
> One of the biggest counter arguments I ran into for this is people bringing up how Yondaime Kazekage was fodder (eventhough they had no basis for this statement), but now that its confirmed Yondaime Kazekage has amazing Jinton powers and soloed the Shukaku in the desert (who would actually beat most Akatsuki solo), its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.
> 
> ...



*WTF ARE YOU SAYING. DEIDARA A JONIN*, the guy who was respected in his village and raped the shit outta of the sand's kage. And you said the Shakaku could beat Akutsuki. No bijuu has beaten akutsuki. AND YOU SAY AKUTSUKI NOT KAGE IS MISLEAD BECAUSE YOUR REFERING TO KONAN, KAKAZU, HIDAN, and KISAME, ZETSU, THAT"S NOT AKUTSUKI.
k


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

> He came to the summit alone did he not?




Did they expect him to come?Did they have prep and knowledge?They just found out he was alive for fucks sake..



> When he went on the battlefield he got separated from Gedo MAzo did he not? Come on bro.



Were there any Kages around?And again, i doubt they expected him to show up there and then.



> She's never been shown to run out. That has never even been hinted at either.




Ok, your version of Konan is scary

If she can just sit in the air and shoot for hours without stop.. However, Konan was shown to run out of chakra against Tobi


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 6, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> I wouldn't hesitate to say that at the end those two would have lost to any of the current kages as well.



So you believe Itachi would lose to Tsunade ? Or Raikage who @ best could force out a draw against  'Itachi lite' ? 

Or someone like Mizukage who didn't have any impressive display up unill now ? Or Gaara who was beaten down by Deidara in his own turf ? 

You are out of your mind.


----------



## principito (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I wounder if people will actually believe me now when I say that the Akatsuki (except Nagato, Madara, Sasori, and Itachi) are just Elite Jonin in the same league as Gai, Kitsuchi, Darui, Kankuro, Mifune, etc... and the Kages unless they are handicapped significantly (I.E. Hiruzen with age) are more skilled and stronger Shinobi than them.
> 
> One of the biggest counter arguments I ran into for this is people bringing up how Yondaime Kazekage was fodder (eventhough they had no basis for this statement), but now that its confirmed Yondaime Kazekage has amazing Jinton powers and soloed the Shukaku in the desert (who would actually beat most Akatsuki solo), its looking like Yondaime Kazekage the guy that everyone said couldn't possibly be stronger than these Akatuski member is actually stronger than them.
> 
> ...



Kisame mopped the floor with Bee in that water dome.... and Bee is stronger than Raikage... he can run very fast but he cant swim 

Deidara beat one on one Gaara and Gaara is about to beat his dad

Any Akatsuki would beat Tsunade

Hidan is immortal and if you dont know the trick to "kill him" how would u kill him?


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> How can Gaara even touch Kisame inside the waterdome? Or underwater, period? A lake is all he needs to be underwater.



If you really wish that game, how can Kisame touch an ariel Gaara when he's floating on his gourd sand, which moves at comparable speeds to _Enton?_ He cannot. 



> Even if Kisame does not use water, he can absorb jutsu through his skin, so any underground crushing effort fails due to there not being any chakra to do it with.



No, the only _ninjutsu_ Kisame has been shown absorbing through his skin is Hijutsu Ishibari which is merely chakra coursing through a rope. This does not translate to absorbing chakra from Gaara sand, or absorbing complex _ninjutsu._ 



> As for speed: Daikodan was fired as fast as Hirodura.



So you have proven one attack is of Kisame's has significant speed feats. I would like to see evidence it's:

A. Faster than _Amaterasu/Enton_
B. Faster than Deidara's greatest artistic achievement.



> *I think we all remember Gaara's speed limits versus gates*.



So, allow me to understand. You are using Chūnin exams Gaara to downplay his speed? Really now?



> Remember that Kisame is surrounded by water when he uses Daikodan. He can pull that off faster than any of Gaara's sand can touch him.



So, Gaara can _guard an entire village instantly_ with average sand, but cannot react to Kisame's _Suiton: Daikōdan?_



RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Why not, kisame has biju level chakra, he can make as much water as he wants.



And where are the scans of him doing so? I have yet to see him wield a quantity of sand comparable to Gaara's sand shield. _This_ is Kisame's greatest feat. _This_ is one of Gaara's many feats.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> If you really wish that game, how can Kisame touch an ariel Gaara when he's floating on his gourd sand, which moves at comparable speeds to _Enton?_ He cannot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because kisame never said their was a limit to how much water he can make, and i see no reason besides chakra which he has plenty of. 

That would stop him from making water.


----------



## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> If she can just sit in the air and shoot for hours without stop.. However, Konan was shown to run out of chakra against Tobi



After manipulating 6,000,000,000 paper bombs. 

Please, try again.


----------



## Syntaxis (Jul 6, 2011)

Sigh.

Still people can't grasp the basic idea behind "rock, paper, scissors". If one ninja (Ninja-X) beats the other (Ninja-Z), it doesn't mean that Ninja-X can defeat every ninja that Ninja-Z also beat.

Hidan could have a stat total of 25 for all I care, he could still beat a 35-points Kage level nin like the Raikage or even Bee if they don't know how to handle him.

Sakura and Chiyo beat Sasori, but not even the former two together could've beaten the 3rd Kazekage, I'm sure. No, Sasori wielding him as a puppet doesn't count. And no, it doesn't matter that Sasori did defeat him.

Kakuzu is a ninja that is like Kakashi, except much faster and longer lasting with a larger pool of available ninjutsu. He has a defense against everything and room to learn from his mistakes thanks to having numerous hearts.

Itachi is obviously one of the strongest. But even he wouldn't stand a chance against Bee or the current Raikage. Both of them are practically impossible to catch with Ameterasu, and their genjutsu is rendered useless as well.

Kisame is the strongest matchup against anyone who relies on external chakra displays. He was defeated by his one weakness. That doesn't mean that Gai can defeat everyone that Kisame could beat. It mean he bumped into some bad luck.

Deidara might be able to blow up an entire country, kill millions of people at the same time. But then again, someone with Sharingan or Byakugan would see through most of his tricks and stand a good chance of defeating him. Hell, even other long range fighters might all stand a fair chance, such as Sai. Still, he focuses well on his strengths and worked on his weaknesses (such as genjutsu). One vs. one, he's hard to beat. And even if you beat him (like the Konoha teams did), he is smart enough (even without arms) to get away to safety.

Zetsu can apparantly overwhelm any single enemy through sheer numbers and resilience. We haven't seen the black one fight yet, but he managed to fend off the Mizukage and numerous jounin at the same time.

Konan lost to Jiraiya instantly because he knew her weakness. Not all ninja's have oil at their disposal. Not all ninja's know her weakness. Not all ninja's manage to damage Madara like she did; only Minato and the 1st Hokage before her managed to do that. She's strong enough to confidently invade Konoha with Nagato.

Nagato.. well, duh.

Seriously. They are all ninja's that could very easily fit the role of Kage.

What it boils down to--eventually--are leadership qualities, respect, intelligence and the willingness to make difficult decisions. That makes a Kage. Deserting your village means you aren't really the material the village should be looking for.

Now..

On to Jounin. The special ones. The very powerful ones that we've seen so far. Why aren't they Kage material? Why isn't Hyuuga Hiashi considered? Why isn't Shikaku? And why is Kakashi considered the default upcoming Hokage?

Again, I think it doesn't just boil down to combat prowess or your ability to kill people. 

Hiashi might simply lack the intellectual capacity for the position, maybe he is too lazy, perhaps he is too much of a specialist ninja that isn't capable of performing other roles.

Shikaku might be incredibly smart, but what if he scores a 2 out of 5 in the Taijutsu, Genjutsu and Stamina departments? That means his intelligence is a 10 out of 5, easily, but he can't put up a decent fight.

To summarize: The nins that are qualified for Akatsuki and a Kage position all have something in common: they excel at every stat (granting the slight exception of 1 stat), and still manage to have a focus through either sheer talent or a bloodline ability.

Those who are jounin forever simply have a few stats too low, or lack the specialist edge, to be considered for the position.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Because kisame never said their was a limit to how much water he can make, and i see no reason besides chakra which he has plenty of.



That's a blatant no limits fallacy. "Kisame didn't state there was a limit, therefore, there is none!" 



> That would stop him from making water.



What are talking about here?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> After manipulating 6,000,000,000 paper bombs.
> 
> Please, try again.



No need.You said:




			
				Kisabuna said:
			
		

> She's never been shown to run out.



I win


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> That's a blatant no limits fallacy. "Kisame didn't state there was a limit, therefore, there is none!"
> 
> 
> 
> What are talking about here?



Im saying as long as kisame has chakra, i do not see why he can not keep using the jutsu that lets him produce water.

Water>Sand.

Aka Kisame>Gaara.





Syntaxis said:


> Sigh.
> 
> Still people can't grasp the basic idea behind "rock, paper, scissors". If one ninja (Ninja-X) beats the other (Ninja-Z), it doesn't mean that Ninja-X can defeat every ninja that Ninja-Z also beat.
> 
> ...


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Im saying as long as kisame has chakra, i do not see why he can not keep using the jutsu that lets him produce water.



And what are the limitations of Kisame's charka? Do you know? Are you stating that Kisame has the necessary chakra reserves for a desert's worth of water, now? 

Not only is this stretching his on panel feats, but those Kisame's greatest feats were while he was enhanced with Hachibi's chakra. 



> Water>Sand.
> 
> Aka Kisame>Gaara.



This is merely a restatement of a conclusion you haven't supported with relevant evidence.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> *And what are the limitations of Kisame's charka? *Do you know? Are you stating that Kisame has the necessary chakra reserves for a desert's worth of water, now?
> 
> Not only is this stretching his on panel feats, but those Kisame's greatest feats were while he was enhanced with Hachibi's chakra.
> 
> ...



I don't know his exact limitations, but i do know its much higher then Gaara who does not have biju level chakra.

You do know that Gaara has to use his chakra to take control over sand right? Which kisame/Samehada can absorb, along with Giant Shark Missile.

So who is going to out last the other Gaara, or Kisame.

Im going with kisame.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> *I don't know his exact limitations,* but i do know its much higher then Gaara who does not have biju level chakra



So you don't know the exact limitations of Kisame's base reserves, but you are going to speculating that it can be used to summon water comparable to a desert in size? 

So you mean Gaara, the one who had a bijū within him doesn't have bijū level chakra? 



> You do know that Gaara has to use his chakra to take control over sand right?



I'm aware. I have already provided evidence as to why he cannot.



> So who is going to out last the other Gaara, or Kisame.



Now you are merely shifting the argument to something you believe Kisame can win. I never stated Gaara has to outlast Kisame, nor do I believe he does.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> So you mean Gaara, the one who had a bijū within him doesn't have bijū level chakra?



*Key word: HAD*, Gaara was never in control over the one tails, so theirs nothing to suggest he had control/access to the one tails chakra.

Actually theirs a little evidence to the contrary, since Kankuro said he could not keep up his Armor of sand up for long. If he had biju level chakra he could keep his Armor of sand up all day long.




> I'm aware. I have already provided evidence as to why he cannot.



Now im confused, you provided evidence as to who, can not do what?




> Now you are merely shifting the argument to something you believe Kisame can win. I never stated Gaara has to outlast Kisame, nor do I believe he does.



I believe this is a fight of endurance.

Can kisame make enough water to counter Gaara's sand, and can Gaara keep control over his sand long enough to overwhelm kisame.

Obviously im on kisame's side, so i do not think Gaara can do what i just stated.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> The problem here, Turrin, is your strange interpretation of "elite jounin." If the generals of this war are only "elite jounin," then what does that make Torune, Asuma, Zabuza, and others on that level of strength?
> 
> And by the way, please don't put Kankurou in the same league as Kakashi, Darui, Guy, and Akatsuki members.



My opinion on the Jonin class is that its a large demographic apply to many different shinobi who vary in strength. This forum sees characters like Asuma and Zabuza and says to themselves these guys are highly skilled Jonin so anyone stronger than them has to be on the next level, I.E. Kage Class, but in reality people stronger than Asuma and Zabuza can just be more skilled Jonins than they are. 

Kankuro would also be considered a highly skilled Jonin, it just that Deidara, Kisame, and Kakuzu are even more skilled Jonin.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> *Key word: HAD*, Gaara was never in control over the one tails, so theirs nothing to suggest he had control/access to the one tails chakra.



You're merely supporting my point without realizing it. I can use feats to prove Gaara has bijū level chakra (Deidara fight) and because you believe the Shukaku didn't influence the amount of chakra he possessed, then following your logic, current Gaara should be able  to do the same if not better.



> Actually theirs a little evidence to the contrary, since Kankuro said he could not keep up his Armor of sand up for long. If he had biju level chakra he could keep his Armor of sand up all day long.



Wasn't this in part 1.  During the _Chūnin exams?_ 



> Now im confused, provided evidence as to why kisame can not do what?



Why Kisame cannot absorb the chakra in Gaara's sand. 



> I believe this is a fight of endurance.



I don't. 



> Can kisame make enough water to counter Gaara's sand.



You haven't provided evidence of him summoning enough water.



> Can Gaara keep control over his sand long enough to overwhelm kisame.



Well yes,, with the amount at his disposal.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> If you really wish that game, how can Kisame touch an ariel Gaara when he's floating on his gourd sand, which moves at comparable speeds to _Enton?_ He cannot.



Daikodan can be shot upwards. Kisame was practically floating as he used it anyway. But sure, it would come to a standstill untill someone runs out of chakra. (Gaara)



> No, the only _ninjutsu_ Kisame has been shown absorbing through his skin is Hijutsu Ishibari which is merely chakra coursing through a rope. This does not translate to absorbing chakra from Gaara sand, or absorbing complex _ninjutsu._



He also forced chakra out of Samehada when it had absorbed from Bee, with his hand. Gaara's sand is strong and overwhelming to be sure, but the jutsu is by no means more _complex_ than Aoba's jutsu.

And Kisame can always fuse with Samehada.



> So you have proven one attack is of Kisame's has significant speed feats. I would like to see evidence it's:
> 
> A. Faster than _Amaterasu/Enton_
> B. Faster than Deidara's greatest artistic achievement.





> So, allow me to understand. You are using Chūnin exams Gaara to downplay his speed? Really now?



First off, I don't mean Gaara's speed, but the speed of his jutsu. His automatic defense was clearly stated and proven to have speed limits. Why would his sand be any faster after the time skip? No evidence of that.

Example A was only a small quantity of sand, which moves automatically. While I agree that it's uber fast and faster than Kisame, Gaara has never shown this type of speed when using large quantities of it. Latest chapter was a good example. That was definately not as fast as Amaterasu.

Example B I'm assuming you meant the bomb he wanted to use on Sand village? That was by no means instant. Deidara announced it, and it dropped before it exploded.



> So, Gaara can _guard an entire village instantly_ with average sand, but cannot react to Kisame's _Suiton: Daikōdan?_



He can but he can't interrupt it to stop it from happening. And he can try and guard against it, but it absorbs chakra, so not only does his sand just fall to the ground, but Daikodan simply eats right through it. Guarding against Daikodan with a ninjutsu, especially with Gaara's typical stoic unmoving style, is the worst possible move.

Also, we only saw the end result, that panel doesn't mean it was created instantly, only that we were left in suspense as to how Gaara would handle it. Dramatic effect.

If you truly believe he used it instantly, how do you explain the latest chapter? How do you explain Muu escaping the sand's grasp?


----------



## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> I win





畜生道 said:


> What's stopping random fodder from hiding behind a tree or a rock till she runs out?





Kisabuna said:


> She's never been shown to run out. That has never even been hinted at either.



I meant she's never been shown to run out _of paper_. I need to remember to post exactly what I mean from now on, lest people that are clearly losing begin to grasp at straws.


----------



## seastone (Jul 6, 2011)

Elite Jonin and Kages are more or less synonyms. Who do you think becomes Kage or replaces them?


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> I meant she's never been shown to run out _of paper_. I need to remember to post exactly what I mean from now on, lest people that are clearly losing begin to grasp at straws.



Her paper uses chakra as well, right?And once she runs out of chakra


----------



## Grand Cross (Jul 6, 2011)

MaskedMenace said:


> Elite Jonin and Kages are more or less synonyms. Who do you think becomes Kage or replaces them?



Exactly what I said in my first post here. Kage is a term bestowed upon the best ninja in a Village. Put any Akatsuki member in any Village and remove the current Kage and see those Akatsuki members become Kages.



畜生道 said:


> Her paper uses chakra as well, right?And once she runs out of chakra



Good luck waiting for that bro.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> You're merely supporting my point without realizing it. I can use feats to prove Gaara has bijū level chakra (Deidara fight) and because you believe the Shukaku didn't influence the amount of chakra he possessed, then following your logic, current Gaara should be able  to do the same if not better.



Gaara moving around large amounts of sand does not mean he has Biju level Chakra, it was never stated that Gaara's moves take a large amount of chakra to use. so no you can not prove Gaara has Biju level chakra.


> Wasn't this in part 1.  During the _Chūnin exams?_



Yes it was.



> Why Kisame cannot absorb the chakra in Gaara's sand.



We disagree on this as well, if theirs Chakra in it Kisame/Samehada can absorb it end of story.




> I don't.


Since we disagree on the very basis of what kind of fight this is, i do not see how we are suppose to agree on anything.

So yes this will be my concession, since i see no point in continuing this debate and wasting both of our times.



> You haven't provided evidence of him summoning enough water.



Proof that he can not summon enough water. All he has to do is spam this B-Rank jutsu. 




> Well yes,, with the amount at his disposal.



I dis-agree.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Kisabuna said:


> Exactly what I said in my first post here. Kage is a term bestowed upon the best ninja in a Village. Put any Akatsuki member in any Village and remove the current Kage and see those Akatsuki members become Kages.
> 
> 
> 
> Good luck waiting for that bro.



Well, i guess you are right.. random fodder stands no chance, happy?


----------



## bearzerger (Jul 6, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> So the fact that he defeated a whole country / the 3rd Kazekage is  just meaningless hype, but the fact that he lost to Chiyo and Sakura *says it all?*
> Hypocrite much? And you're talking like Chiyo is weak... -.-



Sasori defeating a country is meaningless. I don't know what kind of an image you have of that country Sasori defeated, but it's not as if that country was worth anything. It was some tiny inconsequential country which may not even have had its own shinobi village. Remember Sasuke defeating hundreds of fodder? It's the same thing.

And yes the fact that he lost to Chiyo and Sakura does say it all. Just think of who defeated him and at what point. Naruto was still immature, at best on par with regular jounin and he's the ruler by which everything is measured. Sasori was the first Akatsuki who was defeated and he didn't even fall to Naruto or Sasuke, but to Sakura and some one arc side chara.
Now of course Chiyo was a legendary shinobi in her own right but still if you look at plot progression it makes no sense for someone on par with the five leaders of the shinobi world to be defeated in such a manner.



shintebukuro said:


> It isn't fair to attribute Sasori's defeat of the strongest Kazekage as an ambush from a traitor. The 3rd Kazekage was specifically mentioned and specifically hyped to, in turn, hype Sasori. I don't think the author intended for us to criticize it.
> 
> And if Chiyo beat him, then it doesn't mean he's weak, but just that Chiyo is really strong. She's one of the 2 "great siblings." And let's not pretend like Sasori didn't meet his counter in Sakura's antidotes, or that he didn't subconsciously allow his parents to "embrace" him.



Yes, the 3rd Kazekage was specifically mentioned, but whether Kishi intended us to believe that Sasori was stronger than him or whether it was just to emphasize what a heinous criminal Sasori was and how much damage he had done to Suna is a different matter.

As for the rest read above I already adressed most of it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you believe Itachi would lose to Tsunade ? Or Raikage who @ best could force out a draw against  'Itachi lite' ?
> 
> Or someone like Mizukage who didn't have any impressive display up unill now ? Or Gaara who was beaten down by Deidara in his own turf ?
> 
> You are out of your mind.



Nah, you are just too much in awe of Itachi's MS to see clearly. Itachi had already trouble seeing in the beginning of the fight. And his jutsu clearly were lacking in power because he was low on stamina. All he had were the three MS jutsu. Tsukiyomi is worthless if an opponent on the kage's level knows about it, his Amaterasu was worse than Sasuke's at the kage summit and he lost one of his eyes like ten seconds after using it and with Susanoo he was only forcing himself to remain alive for each instant it took him to draw Oro out of Sasuke.

That is how weakened Itachi was by his illness. Now if he had been healthy Itachi would have had what it took to be Minato's worthy successor, but he wasn't. It's that simple.

I don't know about the Mizukage, we haven't seen her go all out, but she does have two kekkai genkai which may have worked even against Itachi's Susanoo and I would expect her to atleast be able to outlast Itachi if she can't match him power outright.
As for the Gaara who dealt with Sasuke's Enton like it was only a pesky annoyance and who no doubt has gotten far stronger since he fought Deidara, I actually expect Gaara to be stronger than Itachi was. Gaara stands a very good chance of becoming the number 2 when the story is over. The only one who'll be stronger is Naruto. And I guess Sasuke should he survive.


----------



## Hazuki (Jul 6, 2011)

only hidan is elite juunin and even him who is the slowest man in akatsuki , can match  kakashi in taijutsu 

all other are above elite juunnin


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 6, 2011)

Kages are also just elite Jonin. Being a "Kage" just means you're the best all-round compared to your peers.

And I consider the phrase "Kage-level" as to meaning that you could be a candidate for the title, when compared to other characters


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## αce (Jul 6, 2011)

> I've said it once and I'll say it again Kisame, Hidan, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.



Kisame _is_ kage level.
Which means most of akatsuki themselves happen to be kage level. Bad thread. You read too far into this chapter.



> So you believe Itachi would lose to Tsunade ?* Or Raikage who @ best could force out a draw against 'Itachi lite' ? *



I lol'd.


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Daikodan can be shot upwards. Kisame was practically floating as he used it anyway.



I'm sure it's not faster than Gaara's "Ultimate Defense Sand." _Amaterau/Enton_ speaks for itself.



> He also forced chakra out of Samehada when it had absorbed from Bee, with his hand.



No, you mean Samehada _*bit*_ Kirābī and it gave him his charkra. Kirābī may have speculated he was forced to do so, but a weakened Kisame wasn't forcing him to do anything, and it seemed to leap pretty willing. Realize Samehada only actually betrayed a Zetsu clone. 



> Gaara's sand is strong and overwhelming to be sure, but the jutsu is by no means more _complex_ than Aoba's jutsu.



Seeing as Aoba's chakra is visible and send chakra _into_ his opponent, his jutsu is much more simplistic than Gaara's.



> And Kisame can always fuse with Samehada.



That doesn't change the fact Kisame has only absorbed visible charkra. 



> First off, I don't mean Gaara's speed, but the speed of his jutsu.



I thought it was obvious we were discussing the speed of Gaara's sand. 



> His *automatic defense *was clearly stated and proven to have speed limits. Why would his sand be any faster after the time skip? No evidence of that.



I was going to reply, but you just destroyed your own argument here. Gaara doesn't have his automatic defense anymore, as he doesn't have the Shukaku. His speed feats have improved, regardless. _Amaterasu/Enton_ proved that. 



> Example A was only a small quantity of sand, which moves automatically. While I agree that it's uber fast and faster than Kisame, Gaara has never shown this type of speed when using large quantities of it.



Again, I never stated otherwise. I agree that Gaara cannot control large quantities of sand at those speeds, but he can control them just at high speeds. Higher speed than Kisame has shown. 



> He can but he can't interrupt it to stop it from happening. And he can try and guard against it, but it absorbs chakra, so not only does his sand just fall to the ground, but Daikodan simply eats right through it. Guarding against Daikodan with a ninjutsu, especially with Gaara's typical stoic unmoving style, is the worst possible move.



I never argued otherwise. 



> Also, we only saw the end result, that panel doesn't mean it was created instantly.



The previous page shows _nothing_ but Deidara stating _you're too late!?_ He wouldn't made such a statement if Gaara's sand had already begun moving. With Deidara's eyesight (enhanced by his uncovered magnifier) and him looking downward, he should have been able to see.



> Only that we were left in suspense as to how Gaara would handle it. Dramatic effect.



You're using dramatic effect to dismiss Gaara's incredible reactions?  Then I suppose I can just dismiss _Suiton: Daikōdan_ moving at comparable speed to _Hirudora_ as "dramatic effect."



> If you truly believe he used it instantly, how do you explain the latest chapter? How do you explain Muu escaping the sand's grasp?



Mū is fast. Could you explain how arrived at a different conclusion? Usually when a featless character gets feats against a poweful opponent, we accept this as proof the character is strong/fast/powerful. You imply the opposite, that Gaara's feat other feats were unimpressive/inconsistent, which doesn't make sense to me in this context. I could understand if it was some random fodder who did so, but a confirmed Kage level shinobi with a _Kekkei tōta._



RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Gaara moving around large amounts of sand does not mean he has Biju level Chakra, it was never stated that Gaara's moves take a large amount of chakra to use. so no you can not prove Gaara has Biju level chakra.



Why must everything require a statement, again? Gaara has shown superior *feats* to whatever Kisame has, because Kisame's stamina feats have really only been shown when he fed off the Hachibi's charka. Regardless, Gaara still has the better feats.




> We disagree on this as well, if theirs Chakra in it Kisame/Samehada can absorb it end of story.



Saying "end of story" won't change your lack of actual evidence for this statement. A chakra absorbtion technique doesn't mean a _ninjutsu_ absorbtion technique. Zetsu proved that. 




> Since we disagree on the very basis of what kind of fight this is, i do not see how we are suppose to agree on anything.
> 
> So yes this will be my concession, since i see no point in continuing this debate and wasting both of our times.



Concession accepted.



> Proof that he can not summon enough water. All he has to do is spam this B-Rank jutsu.



Negative proof is a fallacy. Proof that Gaara doesn't have bijū levels of charka.


----------



## αce (Jul 6, 2011)

Oh and I do not care what anyone says anymore. The strength differences between kage's is so unbelievably vague that it should be noted that kage is merely a title. Not a level of ability.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> I've said it once and I'll say it again Kisame, Hidan, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.



Kisame, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara Could Beat Gaara, Mei and Tsunade Easily


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## Empathy (Jul 6, 2011)

Bijuu hunters - Elite Jounin. Only Elite Jounins in the main antagonist group of the entire series would be Hidan, and maybe prep-less Konan.

*Edit:* Yondaime Kazekage, not being fodder since 400 chapters were he was easily dealt with by Orochimaru proves nothing. Old Hiruzen or Tsunade more impressive than Deidara or Kisame? Are you kidding me? Seriously how does the Yondaime Kazekage not being shit, prove anything about the Main Antagonists on the entire series, all being weak.

*Edit II:* Kakuzu, Deidara, and Kisame in the same league as Kankuro? Are you kidding me?

*Edit III:* Deidara defeated Kazekage Gaara in the desert. And can obliterate villages. Kisame defeated Killer Bee, without much trouble. Granted he did have a large Chakra mass to feed off of, but it still doesn't take away from the point. Kakuzu kicked the shit out of Kakashi, who has almost been named Hokage twice, and mentioned to make an excellent choice for Rokudaime Hokage. Konan almost fucking killed Madara Uchiha. They're in the same league as Kankuro? Are you shitting me. I'd love to see how Kankuro would fare against Gaara in the desert, Killer Bee, Kakashi, or Madara. You've gotta be shitting me.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Kisame, Konan, Kakuzu, and Deidara Could Beat Gaara, Mei and Tsunade Easily



How are Konan and Kakuzu beating Tsunade and Gaara? I guess for Konan is possible with prep but that doesn't classify as "easy"

And for Kisame i recommend you take a good look at Puppetry's posts


----------



## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 6, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> Oh and I do not care what anyone says anymore. The strength differences between kage's is so unbelievably vague that it should be noted that kage is merely a title. Not a level of ability.



I have to mostly agree with this. The actual strength of Kages are vague, and since this isn't DBZ, I couldn't imagine them being so much stronger than other ninjas. The simple fact is that they are just all elite Jonin who were given the title of Kage because they were the best ninja in the village.

The power-levels in Naruto are actually alot more tame and realistic compared to other action mangas, which is one of the reasons I like it so much. Now while a few characters do throw a monkey wrench into the perceived power levels (Naruto for example), I believe that they remain mostly static. Any character of sufficient skill and ability can beat/kill another. And even certain characters are better suited to fight some characters than others.


----------



## Gin Ichimaru (Jul 6, 2011)

So just because they don't have Kekkai Genkai, they're not Kage-level?

Anyway they're Kage level, doesn't really matter though, Kage level is just another title, and there's been several of these threads already and you never changed your mind


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Kisame.







> Konan.



What? She's displays a jutsu she had to _prepare for months_ and now she's a high tier character? Really? 



> Kakuzu.



Gourd only Gaara? Sure, I'll give you that one. Desert Gaara blocked _Shī Surī_ which is greater than anything in Kakuzu's arsenal.



> Deidara.



I'll concede on this one. Deidara is probably stronger than Gaara, at the moment. Once Gaara displays his newfound powers (which we all know he has) then I expect this to change.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> How are Konan and Kakuzu beating Tsunade and Gaara? I guess for Konan is possible with prep but that doesn't classify as "easy"



Tsunades Strength will do absolutely dick against a woman made of paper and an Immortal who can attack her her from five angles at a distance

Konan Would end up taking out  Garra the same way Deidara did, and Kakuzu's lighting release should be able to pierce gaara's sand easily



> What? She's displays a jutsu she had to prepare for months


 where was it ever stated that it took her months?


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro solo'd gaara's daddy in a desert 

Kisame > all current kages


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## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> where was it ever stated that it took her months?



It wasn't directly stated, but it was heavily implied.
I wasn't just sitting idol *all that time*.
_I went over this plan, did countless simulations._

It wasn't something she whipped up last night.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> It wasn't directly stated, but it was heavily implied.
> I wasn't just sitting idol *all that time*.
> _I went over this plan, did countless simulations._
> 
> It wasn't something she whipped up last night.



That is clearly in reference to her coming up with said plan not the actual creation of said bombs, that doesn't mean she was making the bombs that entire time


Nice try thogh

EDIT: besides she wouldn't even need half that many for Gaara or Tsunade,


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Khris said:


> Oro solo'd gaara's daddy in a desert
> Kisame > all current kages



Onoki can defeat Kisame, if we are to believe his hype, and the fact that he can fly very fast.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Onoki can defeat Kisame, if we are to believe his hype, and the fact that he can fly very fast.



whether he can fly faster than water dome is the question.. water dome caught killer bee off guard.. 

Daikodan, and its over..


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Khris said:


> whether he can fly faster than water dome is the question.. water dome caught killer bee off guard..
> 
> Daikodan, and its over..



Oonoiki could probably disperse it with Dust Element


----------



## Shirai Ryu (Jul 6, 2011)

Hiden Maybe, but the rest of Akatsuki are Kage level or higher.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

Khris said:


> whether he can fly faster than water dome is the question.. water dome caught killer bee off guard..
> 
> Daikodan, and its over..



That is one way to think about it, but why can't onoki fly above the Water-dome.

And theirs a good chance Onoki can dodge the Giant Shark missile as well.

Im the number one Kisame fan, so im open to any suggestions about how he would defeat Onoki, at the moment i do not see it happening.

But we will both know 100 percent when we see Onoki go all out against Muu.


----------



## hitokugutsu (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin said:


> My opinion on the Jonin class is that its a large demographic apply to many different shinobi who vary in strength. *This forum sees characters like Asuma and Zabuza and says to themselves these guys are highly skilled Jonin so anyone stronger than them has to be on the next level, I.E. Kage Class, but in reality people stronger than Asuma and Zabuza can just be more skilled Jonins than they are. *
> 
> Kankuro would also be considered a highly skilled Jonin, it just that Deidara, Kisame, and Kakuzu are even more skilled Jonin.





This is whats causing the massive shitstorm. Of course everybody knows that there is no official rank between Jonin and Kage. Thats why this forum makes up "classes" to present the difference in skills better

I also do believe that there is not a HUGE gap between Kage level fighters, but there definitely is one. As for ranking between Kages


S+ (elite Kages)
Minato/Itach/Hiruzen etc

S (Kages)
most Kages, Sannin, Sasori, 

S- (Kage potential)
Gaara/Kakashi (people who are NOT first choice for your "standard" Kage and leading the village, but due to circumstances (i.e village destroyed, politics, keeping Shukaku in control etc.) they are elected. And they are skillfull enough to hold their own against Kages in general
Most Akatsuki also fall under this category: Kisame/Kakuzu/Deidara/Konan


And as for people like Asuma and Zabuza. They obviously fall below the people presented above. Bu they are noticable Jonin in their village, and usually have some kinda reputations, hence the NF name: Elite Jonin

A+ (elite Jonin)
Zabuza, Asuma, Hidan Dan, Shikaku etc. A lot of the "famous type" Edo's

A (General Jonin)
Mostly nameless Jonin. And people like Neji

A- (Special Jonin)
Those who only have Jonin level expertise in certain areas, like Anko (also Genam I thought, not sure)


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Tsunades Strength will do absolutely dick against a woman made of paper and an Immortal who can attack her her from five angles at a distance



That doesn't mean they are beating Tsunade "easily" especially with Katsuyu.And i disagree that her strength is doing jack shit against Kakuzu.She can fuck up the battlefield pretty hard and make things unpleasant for Kakuzu even if he's not close to her.Plus she can trow some pretty nasty stuff at him and his hearts.




> Konan Would end up taking out Garra the same way Deidara did



Since when does she posses almost impossible to spot, extremely small clay bomb birdies?




> and Kakuzu's lighting release should be able to pierce gaara's sand easily



That still doesn't mean Gaara is getting stomped.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Oonoiki could probably disperse it with Dust Element



Daikodan? read again..




RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> That is one way to think about it, but why can't onoki fly above the Water-dome.


again.. can he fly faster than water dome?



> And theirs a good chance Onoki can dodge the Giant Shark missile as well.


while in the water dome? don't believe he's a good swimmer



> Im the number one Kisame fan, so im open to any suggestions about how he would defeat Onoki, at the moment i do not see it happening.


actually kisame can defeat almost every ninjutsu user in the manga.. chakra drainage and daikodan are the worst jutsus for a ninjutsu user..



> But we will both know 100 percent when we see Onoki go all out against Muu.



maybe.. but so far.. he can't IMO..


----------



## Skywalker (Jul 6, 2011)

Hidan is the weakest and he's Elite Jounin-Low Kage, in my opinion.


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> I'm sure it's not faster than Gaara's "Ultimate Defense Sand." _Amaterau/Enton_ speaks for itself.



Well, then he just glides around untill he's tired. Guess all you need to handle Gaara in the desert is a lake to sit in.



> No, you mean Samehada _*bit*_ Kirābī and it gave him his charkra. Kirābī may have speculated he was forced to do so, but a weakened Kisame wasn't forcing him to do anything, and it seemed to leap pretty willing. Realize Samehada only actually betrayed a Zetsu clone.



Keep in mind that you stated here that Samehada bit Bee and took his chakra which was invisible at the time. This will be used later on.

You state these sequences as though they are true, but neither of us can prove it beyond doubt, it's up to interpretation. 
_I_ think it's likely he took it, as it was revealed as a turn of events and as a plot twist that Kisame could take chakra for himself. Daikodan further reinforces this as an ability specific to Kisame. Not to mention their chakras are as identical as they can be without being clones, even to sensors. With that in mind it makes sense to me they have similar abilities. Gaara's dad has similar abilities to Gaara, and their chakra also is similar to a sensor. it's not 100% proof, but it's what I base my opinion on.



> Seeing as Aoba's chakra is visible and send chakra _into_ his opponent, his jutsu is much more simplistic than Gaara's.



Gaara's chakra is also invisible, as it doesn't magically create sand out of nowhere, but manipulates sand to move around. Also, I don't agree with the notion that invisible chakra is less complex than visible chakra. In fact we have often seen that pure uncontrolled chakra with tailed beasts is very visible.



> That doesn't change the fact Kisame has only absorbed visible charkra.



But Samehada has absorbed invisible chakra, and you just admitted the chakras in Gaara's jutsu is invisible, and thus no more complex than Aoba's by your own criteria.
Not to mention Kisame fused with Samehada also absorbed invisible chakra when holding on to Bee and his tentacles.



> I was going to reply, but you just destroyed your own argument here. Gaara doesn't have his automatic defense anymore, as he doesn't have the Shukaku. His speed feats have improved, regardless. _Amaterasu/Enton_ proved that.
> 
> Again, I never stated otherwise. I agree that Gaara cannot control large quantities of sand at those speeds, but he can control them just at high speeds. Higher speed than Kisame has shown.



Okay so what are small amounts of sand going to do against Kisame when he's standing on, or submerged in large quantities of water?



> The previous page shows _nothing_ but Deidara stating _you're too late!?_ He wouldn't made such a statement if Gaara's sand had already begun moving.



Why not? Seems like a normal thing to say when someone attempts something.



> With Deidara's eyesight (enhanced by his uncovered magnifier) and him looking downward, he should have been able to see.



Regardless, if Gaara's sand was faster than Deidara expected, it doesn't mean it was instantanious.



> You're using dramatic effect to dismiss Gaara's incredible reactions?  Then I suppose I can just dismiss _Suiton: Daikōdan_ moving at comparable speed to _Hirudora_ as "dramatic effect."



That would be valid (especially looking at the panels of them shooting at the same time has lots of drama), except the detail that Hirodura was seen to be inside Daikodan and Kisame observed the progression.



> Mū is fast. Could you explain how arrived at a different conclusion? Usually when a featless character gets feats against a poweful opponent, we accept this as proof the character is strong/fast/powerful. You imply the opposite, that Gaara's feat other feats were unimpressive/inconsistent, which doesn't make sense to me in this context.



Mu is fast, but so are many others. Only a few are fast enough to dodge things like Amaterasu, and I'm not going to assume he is yet. He wasn't hyped for his incredible speed but for his stealth.

So since I don't assume every new character who has a good dodging feat is the fastest man alive, I also don't assume Gaara's move that was evaded was as fast as something nigh-instantaniously.



> I could understand if it was some random fodder who did so, but a confirmed Kage level shinobi with a _Kekkei tōta._



I don't think that says something about speed.

Unfortunately I can only reply in 2 days or so, due to work and stuff. I might if it's still interesting.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> That doesn't mean they are beating Tsunade "easily" especially with Katsuyu.And i disagree that her strength is doing jack shit against Kakuzu.She can fuck up the battlefield pretty hard and make things unpleasant for Kakuzu even if he's not close to her.Plus she can trow some pretty nasty stuff at him and his hearts.


 Any thing She throws Kakuzu could probably Tank, all hed have to do is blast her form all sides and shes done, she  has shown nothing that could tank his attacks, and even if she did get close she would have to hit one of his hearts for it to matter

Katsyu just seems like it would be a big target at best. maybe she  could use it for tanking thogh




> Since when does she posses almost impossible to spot, extremely small clay bomb birdies?


an origami paper bomb would serve the same purpose



> That still doesn't mean Gaara is getting stomped.


it could kill him easily enough, or [going by Kishis rules] "defuse his sand"


----------



## vagnard (Jul 6, 2011)

Turrin.... like always you are too blinded by the hype of the current chapter. 

Deidara actually defeated a kage. Yes... the same kage who is now fighting against Mr. Jinton and subdued a bijuu (Deidara did the same with Sanbi... maybe you forgot) and had Suna grabbed by the balls if Gaara didn't intervine. 

Please tell what elite jounin is village level threat please?.

Then you have Sasori who killed the strongest kazekage in history plus was stated to be above Deidara. 

Kisame fought on par and practically defeated Killer Bee... a guy who is on par or better than Raikage. He was called a bijuu without a tail. What kind of elite jounin would receive such title?. 

Kakuzu was stomping Post-timeskip Kakashi before Naruto arrived. Yes the same Kakashi who was declared Hokage candidate and even without MS was considered epitome of elite jounin level.

I agree with Konan and Hidan, thought. They are elite jounin at best. Konan needed a lot of prep time against weakened Madara and she still failed. Hidan barely was a threat to Asuma and Shikamaru.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Can any one even come up with way a Jounin could beat Konnan thogh?


----------



## Kind of a big deal (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Can any one even come up with way a Jounin could beat Konnan thogh?



Suiton.

10 char.


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Kind of a big deal said:


> Suiton.
> 
> 10 char.



except we've seen her use her power's in  the rain just fine.....


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 6, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Turrin.... like always you are too blinded by the hype of the current chapter.
> 
> Deidara actually defeated a kage. Yes... the same kage who is now fighting against Mr. Jinton and subdued a bijuu (Deidara did the same with Sanbi... maybe you forgot) and had Suna grabbed by the balls if Gaara didn't intervine.
> 
> ...



good post.. even though i don't agree with konan thing... but good post none-of-the-less.. repped


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 6, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Turrin.... like always you are too blinded by the hype of the current chapter.
> 
> Deidara actually defeated a kage. Yes... the same kage who is now fighting against Mr. Jinton and subdued a bijuu (Deidara did the same with Sanbi... maybe you forgot) and had Suna grabbed by the balls if Gaara didn't intervine.
> 
> ...



Agreed. Except for Konan.


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## TNPS1984 (Jul 6, 2011)

Konan almost killed Madara. If she knew about Madara's secret, the result might be different. In short, there is no weak members in akatsuki, each one of them is s badass mofo that rivals the power of kages (well maybe with the exception of Hidan)


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

TNPS1984 said:


> Konan almost killed Madara. If she knew about Madara's secret, the result might be different. In short, there is no weak members in akatsuki, each one of them is s badass mofo that rivals the power of kages (well maybe with the exception of Hidan)



Brings me back to a thought i had during the pain arc, is why Didn't the Akatsuk just Burn Kohona to the ground in the first place.....


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## TNPS1984 (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Brings me back to a thought i had during the pain arc, is why Didn't the Akatsuk just Burn Kohona to the ground in the first place.....



pain thought naruto was in the village and they needed to capture the 9-tail alive.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 6, 2011)

I would like the name of a certified Elite jounin, that can defeat Kisame/Deidara/Kakuzu.

Not including Gai/kakashi, i think they are both kage level, but since a lot of other people think other ways. Im saying not to include them.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

TNPS1984 said:


> pain thought naruto was in the village and they needed to capture the 9-tail alive.



yeah what iam saying is is that, even after the Rescue Gaara arc, it seems like the best plan of action would of been for them to just Tear kohona apart and catch him that way

When u look back and see how powerful the Aatsuki where as a hole in the begging, its just makes me think "damn every one was lucky madara is shit at planning"


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Brings me back to a thought i had during the pain arc, is why Didn't the Akatsuk just Burn Kohona to the ground in the first place.....


Well for it may have forced the other countries to unite against them, which would have made capturing the Jinchuriki much more difficult. The other reason is given by Madara and that is Itachi.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

arednad said:


> Well for it may have forced the other countries to unite against them, which would have made capturing the Jinchuriki much more difficult. The other reason is given by Madara and that is Itachi.



Even with Out Itatchi it would of been easy


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Any thing She throws Kakuzu *could probably* Tank, all hed have to do is blast her form all sides and shes done, she  has shown nothing that could tank his attacks, and even if she did get close she would have to hit one of his hearts for it to matter




 You are not sure but claim that she will be defeated easily..





> Katsyu just seems like it would be a big target at best. *maybe she  could use it for tanking thogh*



Well, duh





> an origami paper bomb would serve the same purpose




Origami-paper bomb?What's that?Konan only used explosive tags.

Also Deidara had to trick Gaara into using all his sand to protect the villagers so he'll have no choice but to guard himself with the sand the nano bombs were.




> it could kill him easily enough, or [going by Kishis rules] "defuse his sand"




Have you seen how much sand Gaara can create?How is Kakazu defusing or surviving that shit?


----------



## Klue (Jul 6, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> I have to mostly agree with this. The actual strength of Kages are vague, and since this isn't DBZ, I couldn't imagine them being so much stronger than other ninjas. The simple fact is that they are just all elite Jonin who were given the title of Kage because they were the best ninja in the village.
> 
> The power-levels in Naruto are actually alot more tame and realistic compared to other action mangas, which is one of the reasons I like it so much. Now while a few characters do throw a monkey wrench into the perceived power levels (Naruto for example), I believe that they remain mostly static. Any character of sufficient skill and ability can beat/kill another. And even certain characters are better suited to fight some characters than others.



Probably the best post I've read in quite a long while.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> I would like the name of a certified Elite jounin, that can defeat Kisame/Deidara/Kakuzu.
> 
> Not including Gai/kakashi, i think they are both kage level, but since a lot of other people think other ways. Im saying not to include them.



Kitsuchi and Darui?


----------



## Kazuya Mishima (Jul 6, 2011)

Oro defeated a Hokage...

Deidara defeated a Kazekage...

Sasori defeated a Kazekage...

Kakuzu was about to defeat Kakashi (before Naruto showed up), who was almost selected to be the next Hokage.

I think this thread is pretty pointless. The only member you could consider Jounin level is Hidan.


----------



## TNPS1984 (Jul 6, 2011)

If Nagato teamed up with Itachi earlier, there wouldn't be any villages left in existence to talk about


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> You are not sure but claim that she will be defeated easily..


 I say Probably cause of the unknown variable of where their fighting, maybe she throws a gigantic Diamond at him or some thing

Kakuzu could take a punch form her , he would most likely actually end up injuring her if he used  is Iron skin

In short i am sure to say he Could take her easily




> Well, duh[/QUOTE yeah but shed soon just become a big ass target, Kakuzus Attacks are AOE and Strong ones at that, he could make short work of her
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Empathy (Jul 6, 2011)

vagnard said:


> Turrin.... like always you are too blinded by the hype of the current chapter.
> 
> Deidara actually defeated a kage. Yes... the same kage who is now fighting against Mr. Jinton and subdued a bijuu (Deidara did the same with Sanbi... maybe you forgot) and had Suna grabbed by the balls if Gaara didn't intervine.
> 
> ...



Good, except for Konan.

*Edit:*


Kazuya Mishima said:


> Oro defeated a Hokage...
> 
> Deidara defeated a Kazekage...
> 
> ...



Also, correct.


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Even with Out Itatchi it would of been easy



It would not have been just without Itachi, but against him. Itachi is not only unbelievably strong, but had knowledge about the members too. Akatsuki would be decimated in a fight against Itachi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Naruto, Gai and the rest of Konoha backing them up.


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## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Kisame is clearly a Kage level shinobi.
> Sasori is a elite jonin.



Sasori defeated the strongest Kazakage in history.

He was only defeated because his opponent had the only counter to his poison in existance and a puppetmaster with knowledge of his jutsu.

You claim that Kisame lost 'to his kryptonite' but then ignore the fact that Sasori was up against the only hard counter to his abilities out there.

Take your bias out of here please.


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## principito (Jul 6, 2011)

EVERYBODYYYY mentiones "except Hidan"....

Hidan fought Asuma's team including Shikamaru.... and in the end killed Asuma... an Elite jounin... and he would've killed the rest too. just pointint that out


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

arednad said:


> It would not have been just without Itachi, but against him. Itachi is not only unbelievably strong, but had knowledge about the members too. Akatsuki would be decimated in a fight against Itachi, Tsunade, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Naruto, Gai and the rest of Konoha backing them up.



I am talking about the beginning of part one, So Naruto would of been useless, and pain would of taken care of the Itatchi [and jiryia] problem easily


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

principito said:


> EVERYBODYYYY mentiones "except Hidan"....
> 
> Hidan fought Asuma's team including Shikamaru.... and in the end killed Asuma... an Elite jounin... and he would've killed the rest too. just pointint that out



His head was lopped off. He wasn't killing anyone else. Cue rematch and he gets owned by Shikamaru.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

principito said:


> EVERYBODYYYY mentiones "except Hidan"....
> 
> Hidan fought Asuma's team including Shikamaru.... and in the end killed Asuma... an Elite jounin... and he would've killed the rest too. just pointint that out



Hidan was neutralized pretty easily on his own, he did all that cause he had heavy support form Kakuzu


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## Zakgrin (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> I am talking about the beginning of part one, So Naruto would of been useless, and pain would of taken care of the Itatchi [and jiryia] problem easily



Had Jiriaya had help, especially if it was Itachi, I'm fairly confident he could have beaten Pain or atleast beat his 6 paths.


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## Empathy (Jul 6, 2011)

Wow, 11 pages in 5 hours, with 32 people viewing. Your 'Akatsuki are mostly Elite Jounin' threads sure do spark a lot of shitstorms, Turrin.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Zakgrin said:


> Had Jiriaya had help, especially if it was Itachi, I'm fairly confident he could have beaten Pain or atleast beat his 6 paths.



That's a what if to my what if scenario so were way off Point

My Point was that at the beginning of Part 2 The Akatsuki could of raped the shit out of Kohona with little effort


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## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

principito said:


> EVERYBODYYYY mentiones "except Hidan"....
> 
> Hidan fought Asuma's team including Shikamaru.... and in the end killed Asuma... an Elite jounin... and he would've killed the rest too. just pointint that out



Hidan was taken out of the fight almost immediately when he got decapitated.  Kakuzu was the only reason he was able to beat anyone.


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## Empathy (Jul 6, 2011)

Well to be fair, Asuma couldn't have decapitated him without Shikamaru.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Kakuzu could take a punch form her , he would most likely actually end up injuring her if he used  is Iron skin
> 
> In short i am sure to say he Could take her easily



Nope.






> We know her powered can shape the paper, and we know she can practically shit Paper bombs, not hard to put together



We don't know that.Where were the explosive tags against Jiraiya?

And won't it blow up if she tries to shape it?



> HE got them in their in the most simple of ways thogh  so i see konan being able to duplicate said trick easily



And how does she make sure, Gaara uses as sand shield the sand with the explosive tags?



> * I haven't seen Gaara "make" any sand*, ive seen him manipulate a desert thogh and while impressive, Kakuzu's Lighting release is a Lazer so it has a decent spread



Here

And Kakuzu is still getting buried.


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## Zakgrin (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> That's a what if to my what if scenario so were way off Point
> 
> My Point was that at the beginning of Part 2 The Akatsuki could of raped the shit out of Kohona with little effort



I guess I didn't read far enough back to understand the context of what you were talking about, but even still there is Jiraiya. The only members of Akatsuki I see killing him are Pain(which he did) and maybe Itachi. If Akatsuki was to attack Konoha I think it would have gone the same way if Jiraiya was present.


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## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Can any one even come up with way a Jounin could beat Konnan thogh?



Depends on how well she can handle regular Katons. Though actually there aren't many Jounin who use Katons...


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## Reddan (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> I am talking about the beginning of part one, So Naruto would of been useless, and pain would of taken care of the Itatchi [and jiryia] problem easily



Well if you think Pain can take care of Itachi easily then that is your opinion, but I think you are going to be surprised. Kishi has made a special effort to place them side by side since they were resurrected. The hype from both characters also puts them around the same level. I personally think that if they fought each other the winner would have nothing left for any other fight.


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## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Brings me back to a thought i had during the pain arc, is why Didn't the Akatsuk just Burn Kohona to the ground in the first place.....



Itachi. Madara said so.


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## Hero (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Depends on how well she can handle regular Katons. Though actually there aren't many Jounin who use Katons...



She handled Jiraiya's pretty easily.

And I agree with you on most things Turrin, like with Kisame but I think Konan can easily handle the jonins you've listed.


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## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Depends on how well she can handle regular Katons. Though actually there aren't many Jounin who use Katons...



She did shrug off Jiraiya's Katon fairly well.

But really, without the 6 billion exploding tags (or whatever it was) quite a few could atleast put up an even fight with her.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Nope.


 Great Counter Argument Chief





> We don't know that.Where were the explosive tags against Jiraiya?


 she wasn't fighting seriously she was only stalling for time for pain



> And won't it blow up if she tries to shape it?


 I expect a paper master to know what shes doing, besides, they haven't been shown to blow up unless, they were timed, Detonated , or a trap went off lighting a fuse




> And how does she make sure, Gaara uses as sand shield the sand with the explosive tags?


 Well he always dose it so it shouldn't be that hard, she can attack him from all directions making him go into his shell really easy


> Here
> 
> And Kakuzu is still getting buried.


 Thats still not "making sand" its manipulating the earth around him, its not like he is creating sand out of thin air

Any way even if Kakuzu did get buried he would survive it, he doesn't need to breath he can shrug off almost all wounds, and his armor could protect him from he pressure, of the sand burial, he is strong enough to  dig him self out, or blast his way out if he has his hearts in him, and like i said his Lighting release would make killing gaara easily, and i am still sure he could use it to defuse a wave of sand before it got to him


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Depends on how well she can handle regular Katons. Though actually there aren't many Jounin who use Katons...



What is with this crap about  Konnan being weak aginst Katon and Suiton when she has shown Quite Clearly that nether affect her paper whatsoever

EDIT:sorry double post


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Any way even if Kakuzu did get buried he would survive it, he doesn't need to breath he can shrug off almost all wounds, and his armor could protect him from he pressure, of the sand burial, he is strong enough to  dig him self out, or blast his way out if he has his hearts in him, and like i said his Lighting release would make killing gaara easily, and i am still sure he could use it to defuse a wave of sand before it got to him



The moment he's under all that pressure he's pretty much stuck in his hardened mode. The moment he releases it, he and all his hearts are crushed.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> The moment he's under all that pressure he's pretty much stuck in his hardened mode. The moment he releases it, he and all his hearts are crushed.



Thats a possibility but i always saw it as a Brief intense Spike of pressure then it lets off like a Piston

Maybe iam wrong but thats what the Technique looks like to me


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## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> What is with this crap about  Konnan being weak aginst Katon and Suiton when she has shown Quite Clearly that nether affect her paper whatsoever
> 
> EDIT:sorry double post



Konan dodged Jiraiya's Katon. She jumped back from it and it burned off all the paper trapping the fodder guy as well as taking out a few sheets floating around Konan. A direct hit on Konan would be bad, just as how she took damage from detonating her own explosive tags too close to herself.


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Konan dodged Jiraiya's Katon. She jumped back from it and it burned off all the paper trapping the fodder guy as well as taking out a few sheets floating around Konan. A direct hit on Konan would be bad, just as how she took damage from detonating her own explosive tags too close to herself.



She didn't Doge it She Straight up Tanked it


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> Great Counter Argument Chief



Thanks  You say Kakuzu can survive a punch from Tsunade and take her quite easily.But you have no proof 



> she wasn't fighting seriously she was only stalling for time for pain



That's your take on things.Pein told her to kill Jiraiya if she could.It wasn't implied or stated that she was going easy on him.






> *Well he always dose it* so it shouldn't be that hard, she can attack him from all directions making him go into his shell really easy
> Thats still not "making sand" its manipulating the earth around him, its not like he is creating sand out of thin air



Always guards himself with the sand with nano bombs in it, after his opponent has forced him to use all his good (non-nano bomb) sand saving dozens of people?



> Any way even if Kakuzu did get buried he would survive it, he doesn't need to breath he can shrug off almost all wounds, and his armor could protect him from he pressure, of the sand burial, he is strong enough to  dig him self out, or blast his way out if he has his hearts in him, and like i said his Lighting release would make killing gaara easily, and i am still sure he could use it to defuse a wave of sand before it got to him




I guess another user already addressed that..


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 6, 2011)

navy said:


> How is deidara not kage level when he can fight the kazeagee without his most powerful bombs, take on the tschukage, and molecularize just about anyone in the manga?





Kurushimi said:


> Nearly solo'd Madara... with prep or not, she almost did it. Not many people could even push Madara to such extent. Plus, she is practically invincible, unless you have counter to her abilities(like Jiraiya). So your agruments about Konan not being even close to Kage level all suck(ugh, sorry, did you even had any   )
> Kisame(beat KillerBee + other jinchuurikis), Deidara(single-handily defeated Gaara + the Sand... though if it was fighting in different area, I think that Gaara could have won, with nothing to worry about), Kakuzu(toyed with Kakashi) could be considered Kage-level too. Not much information about Zetsu. Orochimaru is a given. Hidan is not Kage level for sure(though he has the potential to defeat most of them).



Sorry for taking so long to reply, was at work...

1) Deidara - Took on the Kazekage (Gaara) who was only promoted to the position due to the needs of the village at the time.  While fighting, granted on his home turf and against an ill prepared Deidara, Gaara had no problems with such attacks. It was only when Deidara decided to focus the village that Gaara willingly protected his village and people. 

2) Konan - Had all the prep time in the world to lay her trap for madara with knowledge of his abilities to boot(besides Izanagi). Impressive feat? Sure. Does her unique fighting style make her difficult to face? Sure but we have seen nothing besides her "trap" that would remotely put her to anything near kage level

3) Kisame - Already said he could be considered a kage however his MAIN ability is to capture jinchuurikis. He simply is a monster at doing so however his other abilties/power and etc make him a hindrance for anyone to fight. I do agree he could beat several kages due to FIGHTING STYLE 

4) Kakazu and Sasori I consider to be kage level. 

Just because certain characters could defeat someone of a higher ability overall does not make them stronger or on the same level. Fighting ability/unique abilities could make up a considerable gap against certain opponents. Just because someone can say beat orochimaru does not mean he could beat all the sannin, or if someone could beat Itachi does not mean he could beat everyone else

Edit: Like some people have mentioned earlier which I would agree with,it takes more then raw power to be considered a kage. It takes other abilities and talents as well. This is how I would define kage. However for this discussion and like many other threads such as this I based kage level strictly on power


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## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> She didn't Doge it She Straight up Tanked it



Nope. It hit the fodder guy first and she jumped way back. Check the next page.


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## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

> Thanks  You say Kakuzu can survive a punch from Tsunade and take her quite easily.But you have no proof



Unless her punches are now Raitons, she can't break Iron Skin:



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> The amount of techniques that can break through the areas hardened by the "Earth Spear" are close to zero, not including its undeniable weak point: "Lightning Release Ninjutsu".


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Unless her punches are now Raitons, she can't break Iron Skin:



Well, ok then..


----------



## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Nope. It hit the fodder guy first and she jumped way back. Check the next page.



Then why is she the one surrounded by smoke (fire aftermath) on both pages?


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Thanks  You say Kakuzu can survive a punch from Tsunade and take her quite easily.But you have no proof


 u mean other then it being said multiple times that he cant die unless you kill his hears?




> That's your take on things.Pein told her to kill Jiraiya if she could.It wasn't implied or stated that she was going easy on him.



 You were saying?






> Always guards himself with the sand with nano bombs in it, after his opponent has forced him to use all his good (non-nano bomb) sand saving dozens of people?


 Always Wraps him self in sand, when fighting an opponent that attacks from Multiple angels








> Nope. It hit the fodder guy first and she jumped way back. Check the next page.


 Look closely at the picture i posted, she is standing in the smoke with some of her paper on fire, she tanked it


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## Marsala (Jul 6, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Then why is she the one surrounded by smoke (fire aftermath) on both pages?



Because it touched her as she was jumping back. But the fire totally eliminated the paper covering the fodder guy. Make no mistake, a direct hit by a fireball on Konan would be Bad.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 6, 2011)

The OP shows no argument... a unique ability like Black Lightning warrants Kage level? So Darui is Kage level? Please...

The Akatsuki have been such a threat because they were so awesomely powerful. Besides, most of them have unique abilities as well. More than one Akatsuki has actually defeated one or more Kage. It's done. Accept it.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> You were saying?





This is Pain's response.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Jul 6, 2011)

> u mean other then it being said multiple times that he cant die unless you kill his hears?



Well she can kill his hearts.But apparently she ain't getting past his iron skin 




> You were saying?



And you were saying?






> Always Wraps him self in sand, when fighting an opponent that attacks from Multiple angels



Ok?


----------



## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> This is Pain's response.



Yeah but thats Not what  konnan said, or did

She said she would wait and thats what she did



> Because it touched her as she was jumping back. But the fire totally eliminated the paper covering the fodder guy. Make no mistake, a direct hit by a fireball on Konan would be Bad.


 She clearly got hit as there was flaming paper around her, she tanked it


----------



## Puppetry (Jul 6, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> That is clearly in reference to her coming up with said plan not the actual creation of said bombs that doesn't mean she was making the bombs that entire time.



That wasn't in reference to Konan's plans. It does not take months to formulate such a straight forward plan, espcially when she had thorough knowledge on Madara's _Jikūkan Idō_ and an inherently advantageous fighting style to counteract it.



> EDIT: besides she wouldn't even need half that many for Gaara or Tsunade,



She loses whether she has them or not. _This_ is the size of Konan's explosions. Deidara's _Shī Surī _ is _far larger._ The only possible way for her to win is to catch him off guard. With Gaara's reactions, I don't find it likely.



Kind of a big deal said:


> Well, then he just glides around untill he's tired.



Gaara's ability to manipulate an entire desert simultaneously disproves the notion that he will tire and fall when use _just_ his gourd sand. 



> Guess all you need to handle Gaara in the desert is a lake to sit in.



You're now describing out of character behaviors. Kisame has never summoned a lake immediately for defensive purposes. That's like my saying Gaara will just bury himself beneath the earth and wait for Kisame to dive underground. Gaara is physically capable of doing so, but he won't. Just like Kisame won't seclude himself in a lake. 



> Keep in mind that you stated here that Samehada bit Bee and took his chakra which was invisible at the time. This will be used later on.



I'm aware of what you'll use it for, I just didn't phrase my response properly. Apologies for that. 



> You state these sequences as though they are true, but neither of us can prove it beyond doubt, it's up to interpretation.



_Zetsu states_ the switch took place while Kisame was underwater. Samehada betrayed Kisame afterwards. 



> Daikodan further reinforces this as an ability specific to Kisame.



This is irrelevant. Because Kisame dispalyed a _ninjutsu_ that was specifically stated to have absorbed other _ninjutsu_ does not mean Kisame himself possesses such an ability. If he did, _Suiton: Daikōdan_ seems pointless.



> Not to mention their chakras are as identical as they can be without being clones, even to sensors.
> 
> With that in mind it makes sense to me they have similar abilities.



The clones is _too weak_  for battle, implying it lacks the necessary chakra reserves to fight. If it Kisame's chakra reservoir, it would be suitable for battle. 

They also don't have the same abilities, or they would be usable in combat.



> Gaara's dad has similar abilities to Gaara, and their chakra also is similar to a sensor. it's not 100% proof, but it's what I base my opinion on.



I don't recall Gaara and his father having similar chakras, but I could be mistaken. Regardless, that could be explained by their connection with the Shukaku.



> Also, I don't agree with the notion that invisible chakra is less complex than visible chakra. In fact we have often seen that pure uncontrolled chakra with tailed beasts is very visible.



I don't disagree, but you seem to have misinterpreted my complex chakra statement. By complex chakra, I meant _ninjutsu._ For example, Kisame/Samehada won't be absorbing a _Doton,_ or even a _Rasengan_ as both are far more complex than ordinary chakra, unaltered (or partially altered) chakra. 



> But Samehada has absorbed invisible chakra, and you just admitted the chakras in Gaara's jutsu is invisible, and thus no more complex than Aoba's by your own criteria.



You missed the next part of my statement. Samehada _*bit*_ Kirābī in order to absorb nonvisible chakra. Simply touching it won't drain your charka, as _Asuma_ never noted any drain. 



> Not to mention Kisame fused with Samehada also absorbed invisible chakra when holding on to Bee and his tentacles.



No, he didn't. Kirābī had his chakra cloak _active._



> Okay so what are small amounts of sand going to do against Kisame when he's standing on, or submerged in large quantities of water?



Why would Kisame be in such a position? The only time he has submerged himself is when he cast _Suirō Sameodori,_ which he quickly dispersed after Kirābī and Sabu escaped. 

And why would Gaara only send minute amounts of sand to attack Kisame? If he has confined himself to a lake, then he's limited his mobility to it's parameters. The only way to circumvent this inhibiter is to use _Suirō Sameodori,_ but Gaara should be able to _outmanuver_ him.



> Why not? Seems like a normal thing to say when someone attempts something.



"it's too late" implies Gaara's reactions were insufficient in stopping Deidara's explosion. The phrase is incredibly clear in it's meaning; Gaara couldn't react. This wouldn't have been said had Deidara seen Gaara reacting.



> Regardless, if Gaara's sand was faster than Deidara expected, it doesn't mean it was instantanious.



Except I have proved it was _instantaneous,_ or close to it. We have:


Deidara stating "It's too late," despite looking down with a scope.
A panel with the bomb quite close to location Gaara's sand occupied, but no sand.

You have provided no contrary evidence. 



> That would be valid (especially looking at the panels of them shooting at the same time has lots of drama), except the detail that Hirodura was seen to be inside Daikodan and Kisame observed the progression.



Where _Hirudora_ was means nothing. They were launched at one another. Regardless of speed, they were going to collide. How do _Kisame's observations_ equate to similar speeds? He stated it was swallowing his attack. As I said before, that was bound to happen. 



> Mu is fast, but so are many others.



Not the three other Kages who were ensnared, apparently.



> Only a few are fast enough to dodge things like Amaterasu, and I'm not going to assume he is yet. He wasn't hyped for his incredible speed but for his stealth.



How does dodging Gaara's average sand equate to dodging _Amaterasu?_ I have already admitted Gaara's gourd sand moves at insane speeds, but it was explicitely stated that it had been altered to be faster and stronger. 



> So since I don't assume every new character who has a good dodging feat is the fastest man alive, I also don't assume Gaara's move that was evaded was as fast as something nigh-instantaniously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MR T (Jul 6, 2011)

They are all kage level...


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## Zen-aku (Jul 6, 2011)

Puppetry said:


> That wasn't in reference to Konan's plans. It does not take months to formulate such a straight forward plan, espcially when she had thorough knowledge on Madara's _Jikūkan Idō_ and an inherently advantageous fighting style to counteract it.


You dont have any Clue how long it took her to figure out he can only be intangible for 5 minutes AND he has to be solid to absorb you

Her Plan Did take months to make sure it would work cause it was perfect, with only an unseen variable being what did her in




> She loses whether she has them or not. _This_ is the size of Konan's explosions. Deidara's _Shī Surī _ is _far larger._ The only possible way for her to win is to catch him off guard. With Gaara's reactions, I don't find it likely.


If your trying to shoot through a wall whats gonna be more effective, a single round from a shot gun ,or a full clip from a machine gun


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## Draffut (Jul 6, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Because it touched her as she was jumping back. But the fire totally eliminated the paper covering the fodder guy. Make no mistake, a direct hit by a fireball on Konan would be Bad.



So the fire barely gracing her caused significantly more smoke than all the paper burning off the other guy?


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## T-Bag (Jul 6, 2011)

3 kazekages were beat by akatsuki members. THe akatsuki are PROFESSIONAL NINJA, undoubtedly kage lvl


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## Divinstrosity (Jul 6, 2011)

They all qualify as "Kage level". Every Akatsuki posed very unique, high level threats to their opponent(s)


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## BXisAWOL (Jul 6, 2011)

Not everyone in the akatsuki is in the same tier.  Kisame, Sasori, Itachi, and Pain were miles above the others.


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## Bane (Jul 6, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> Kakashi seemed to be pretty confident in his ability to take out Kakuzu. Similarly, Gai owned Kisame.



Lol, remember when kakashi was nominated for hokage? Yeah...


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## Kira U. Masaki (Jul 6, 2011)

Ok for the record the akatski like the espada were hampered as much by the author's inability to develop them as anything in their respective verses. 

Next I agree with some that its an argument in semantics. An elite Jounin is basically someone kage level. 

However, I do want to point one thing out that a couple of people on this thread are forgetting regarding sasori. His defeat was a combination of one of the worst cases of plot no jutsu, combined with him let himself get killed at the end. Based on the intelligence, techs, etc. he showed he would not have lost to chiyo even if she was the perfect matchup for him. Just go back and look at some of the page and look how ridiculous some of those maneuvers are that sakura pulled off, or just look at how sasori botched certain techinques. It was especially apparently PNJ was at work when he used the iron sand tech, why the hell to lump the sand into one big chunk and try to hit sakura with that instead, using it in some spread mist form, or multiple smaller chunks, or an infinite number of other ways iron sand could be almost anyone. And then as even admitted by Chiyo i believe, it was stated sasori let himself get killed at the end. Sasori was well above Kage level. 

But I think its like I said in my first point, Kishi (and Kubo) just dropped the ball on a great concept. Just look at Kisame for a second. Until his actually defeat, a lot of people here had him as a given in the top five, as he was just playing around for most of his screen time and still looked ridiculous strong. Then kishi has him go out in a few chapters out of nowhere to Gai of people, and now you have people questioning if he was really that good.


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## Dashido (Jul 6, 2011)

No...they are much more powerful than you give them credit for...Kisame, Deidara and Kakuzu are beasts.....Kakazu, totally out did Kakashi and he had back up. Deidara also has significant power...they are undoubtedly a level above guys like Gai, Asume Kakashi....
They are kage level...


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## Dim Mak (Jul 6, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *A swordsman without a sword fought Gai who is his kryptonite. *
> 
> So much Kisame underestimation going on here.


Even if Kisame had Samehada with him, the outcome of that fight wouldn't be any different. Also, the fight took place on _water_. He should've had the upper hand in that fight.


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## Algol (Jul 6, 2011)

damn i hate these threads. There Are No Power Levels/Tiers in Naruto. Everything is situational. Onoki and Muu's technique would own about anyone, but they cancel each other out, good for them. Gaara's dad cancels out some of Gaara's techs, good for him. Lightning is better than earth, good for lightning element users fighting earth based users. Naruto in KM solo's zetsus and edo-Magneto's with ease. Good for him.

Lets just see how things play out and what happens and enjoy the ride.


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## Dim Mak (Jul 6, 2011)

Jfizz said:


> damn i hate these threads. There Are No Power Levels/Tiers in Naruto. Everything is situational. Onoki and Muu's technique would own about anyone, but they cancel each other out, good for them. Gaara's dad cancels out some of Gaara's techs, good for him. Lightning is better than earth, good for lightning element users fighting earth based users. Naruto in KM solo's zetsus and edo-Magneto's with ease. Good for him.
> 
> Lets just see how things play out and what happens and enjoy the ride.


Very true. + Reps.


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## Klue (Jul 6, 2011)

Dim Mak said:


> Even if Kisame had Samehada with him, the outcome of that fight wouldn't be any different. Also, the fight took place on _water_. He should've had the upper hand in that fight.



Samehada can rapidly heal Kisame from injury; Samehada is also able to merge with him and give him an almost unsurmountable advantage underwater.

We'll never know, but it comes down to whether or not Samehada could heal Kisame from Gai's 7 Gaited Moon-Tiger Attack, or whatever it was called.


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## Shadow050 (Jul 6, 2011)

wrong. 

akatsuki re above "elite jounin" but "elite jounin" could be said to basically kage level as well. 

elite jounin can easily be a wht a person is, when they COULD be a kage going by fighting ability/power, but they similar aren't the kage for whatever reason (there is a kage, or a there's better candidates).

without the "title" of "sannin" the sannin themselves would only be "elite jounin" as well, despite being kage level.

might i add i find it funny that kankuro is "elite jounin" level to the people of NF, i just know due to being a bodyguard and "defeating and surpassing" sasori... yet the very same people would insta-scoff at neji who was above kankuro even those years ago and envoked similar fears in kankuro that gaara struck in him. just saying...


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 6, 2011)

Every single Akatsuki could kill Tsunade, so all of them are "Kage" level.


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## Shadow050 (Jul 6, 2011)

damn, i forgot to mention the MOST IMPORTANT part...

_not all kages are created equal_

since kage is more or less the height of "ninja level" in this manga... it should go without saying, that kage strength can GREATLY vary, and do so WITHOUT diminishing the level of the lesser subject.

_it's as simple as "super sayians" ... all because Goku got up to super sayian 3 didn't mean the people who stopped at super sayian 1 level, didn't count as a "super sayian"_

been trying to say this shit for the longest...


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## shintebukuro (Jul 6, 2011)

Dim Mak said:


> Even if Kisame had Samehada with him, the outcome of that fight wouldn't be any different. Also, the fight took place on _water_. He should've had the upper hand in that fight.



I believe the reason Kisame fought Killer Bee with Samehada, and Guy without it, was to show the difference in strength of his sword and his true full power. 

Against Killer Bee, we saw his full power with Samehada. Against Guy, we saw his strength without Samehada (Suiton).

And I don't think the water really mattered that much. Kisame can create lakes anyway. Shooting his Daikoudan against Hirudora would result in a loss no matter what. Guy was just a perfect counter to Kisame.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Klue said:


> Samehada can rapidly heal Kisame from injury; Samehada is also able to merge with him and give him an almost unsurmountable advantage underwater.
> 
> We'll never know, but it comes down to whether or not Samehada could heal Kisame from Gai's 7 Gaited Moon-Tiger Attack, or whatever it was called.



Gated Guy doesn't know the meaning of "underwater."


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## Shadow050 (Jul 6, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> I believe the reason Kisame fought Killer Bee with Samehada, and Guy without it, was to show the difference in strength of his sword and his true full power.
> 
> Against Killer Bee, we saw his full power with Samehada. Against Guy, we saw his strength without Samehada (Suiton).
> 
> And I don't think the water really mattered that much. Kisame can create lakes anyway. Shooting his Daikoudan against Hirudora would result in a loss no matter what. Guy was just a perfect counter to Kisame.



that's exactly why it doesn't show the difference in his level without or without samehada. 

in the end, he simply was wrong in what he though gai was doing/using, and it costed him big time.

his death was forced though, regardless. let's remember that he took a heavy blow from naruto in RM shortly before hand, and we have no idea just how much he was able to heal himself when he jacked samehada for chakra.

either way, he broke free of the genjutsu and his constraints... but was forced to die anyway, smh.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 6, 2011)

Shadow050 said:


> that's exactly why it doesn't show the difference in his level without or without samehada.
> 
> in the end, he simply was wrong in what he though gai was doing/using, and it costed him big time.
> 
> ...



He went from emaciated to buff. He was fully healed, chakra and all.


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 7, 2011)

Godaime Kazekage said:


> He went from emaciated to buff. He was fully healed, chakra and all.



There were no marks on his body indicating any injury from Naruto's attack either.


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## Shadow050 (Jul 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> There were no marks on his body indicating any injury from Naruto's attack either.





Godaime Kazekage said:


> He went from emaciated to buff. He was fully healed, chakra and all.



it's true he didn't sho any signs of injury, but that doesn't mean he was actually "fully healed"

just like him tanking a kick in the face from gai (just like he did kuushou) didn't mean that the attack was basically a "zero damage" kind of deal.

regardless... that part that was addressed from previous post, was like the least important part of the post.


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## Gameboy (Jul 7, 2011)

Turrin I am dissapoint. Kisame being elite jounin? Clearly Hachibi>Raikage and Kisame was going to finish Hachibi until Raikage came to the rescue. Kisame is one of the strongest Akatsuki, definitely up there


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## crisler (Jul 7, 2011)

*kage, elite...that's just not important..*

kage level is nothing.

there is no kage level... did orochimaru suddenly become elite jounin to kage when he killed hiruzen/gaara's dad? no. did they go down from kage to jounin when they died to orochimaru? NO.

let's say every konoha shinobi in the history lives in the same village currently. hashirama, tobirama, hiruzen, minato, orochimaru, tsunade, jiraiya, kakashi, itachi, naruto, sasuke...guess what. only 1 guy is gonna be kage, others are just ELITE JOUNIN. 

and in suna, gaara would be kage. so... what!? ELITE JOUNIN of one village could be stronger than kage of another village!

whoever the strongest guy becomes the kage. the rest are just elite jounin. orochimaru said hiruzen would've won if he was 10 years younger. guess what? 12years ago, when minato /hiruzen was both alive, one was kage one was just elite jounin (although they addressed him as kage).


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## Zen-aku (Jul 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Every single Akatsuki could kill Tsunade *Except for Hidan*, so all of them are "Kage" level.



Fixed that for you


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## Raiden (Jul 7, 2011)

Turrin I think most of these guys, with the exception of Hidan, are "kage" level. The Paper of the Prison God technique has the power to level villages. We have yet to see the ability of an "elite jonin" that even compares. 

Kakuzu was sent to kill the first Hokage, considered to be the most fearsome man of his lifetime. Despite failing, I think the expectation that Kakuzu was going to beat Shodai illuminates that he is at least kage level. 

Kisame is not an elite jonin for obvious reasons. I don't think his loss to Gai is damaging to his reputation; Gai himself is arguable "kage level" material with the gates.

Holding my tongue with Deidara and Hidan. You may have a point there. Though Deidara did capture Gaara.


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## Empathy (Jul 7, 2011)

How's Deidara excluded, Raiden?


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## Savage (Jul 7, 2011)

Jiraiya solos all

/nonserious post


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## Necessary Evil (Jul 7, 2011)

Deidara was able to defeat gaara one on one,so he is too kage level....

I dont think that this is a serious thread.And anyway guys i dont know why you take so much into account what Turrin wrote,he is just a poster,his sayings doesnt mean that he is actually ture and it has little to no importance.


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## Tengu (Jul 7, 2011)

Everyone in Akatsuki is kage level, except meybe for Hidan and Konan.


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## Raiden (Jul 7, 2011)

Empathy said:


> How's Deidara excluded, Raiden?



EDIT:

Yeah, he's definitely in there considering Deidara has village destroying power, C0 and C4.

I was uncertain about what to say about his last match up with Sasuke, and would calling him "kage" level would suggest about Sasuke's own power at the time. But I think it's safe to call Sasuke unofficially a very elite jonin at the time with an enormous elemental advantage (and the plot ).


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the problem here isnt that a character is Kage level or not is that Kage level is a very plain tier people use, is not like lower jonin, jonin, elite jonin when you can easily identify which is stronger.  Ones people recognize a character as Kage level they suppose all Kage level characters are at the same degree.

I propose we make new tiers to differentiate the different Kage level characters since the power scale in the manga is quickly rising. 

Low Kage

Kage 

High Kage


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## Unknown (Jul 7, 2011)

Raiden said:


> Turrin I think most of these guys, with the exception of Hidan, are "kage" level. The Paper of the Prison God technique has the power to level villages. We have yet to see the ability of an "elite jonin" that even compares.
> 
> Kakuzu was sent to kill the first Hokage, considered to be the most fearsome man of his lifetime. Despite failing, I think the expectation that Kakuzu was going to beat Shodai illuminates that he is at least kage level.
> 
> ...



Konan needs prep to every Kage level jutsu she does. She is just a elite Shinobi. A Kage canddate if you prefer, she is on kakashi's level.

Kakuzu was sent because someone wanted kakuzu to go, maybe to kill Kakuzu. 

Kisame isn't a Kage level shinobi. Even Itachi stated that Kisame would have loose aganist Kakashi. Kisame has simple the luck to become stronger aganist people witha  lot of chakra. So he is a Kakashi level shinobi that has a power up if his enemy has a lot of chakra. But aganist Kage level shinobis that aren't chakra beast Kisame would lose easily. Gai isn't a Kage level shinobi either. It has been stated many many times that Gai is Kakashi's level.

Most of Akatsukis were on par or barely above Kakashi. Kakashi isn't Kage level. Kakashi is a Kage candidate, Kakashi is a guy that will only be Kage if the Kage level guys in his village die, he is the second option.
And that is what the most of Akatsuki is, ninjas that could only be Kage if the Kages died and probably a few more people than them.

Most of Akatsuki are on Gai, Kakashi, Darui, Kitsuchi... level. They would be generals in the Allied Army, but they'll be easily defeated by any Kage.

take as example MS Sasuke. He was defeated by almost all the Kages, he could only injure a Kage that choose to let Sasuke injure him.... But Sasuke would have won or at least give a very good fight aganist any of those Akatsukis.


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## Mathias124 (Jul 7, 2011)

I think the problem is how we define kage level, its much too broad.

For an example, if Kakashi were to become Kage now, he'd be strong enough to hold the position.

But if Naruto becomes kage after the war, he'd be much better.

There are the average Kage, which would be people like Tsunade (combat wise, only combat wise) Kakashi, gaara (though he's going legendary after the war) and Darui.

And then there are the legendary kages like Shodai, Nidaime, yondaime (to some extend, wont elaborate), 3rd kazekage ect.

The Akatsuki members are all at a level where they can fight and win against the average kage 50-50, depending on situations.

But only a few of them would stand a chance against a legendary kage.
Would any of you give Kakuzu, Hidan, Kisame, Deidara a chance against someone like Shodai in a 1v1? of course not.

There's a distinct difference between the average kage, and the ones who become legendary.


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 7, 2011)

most of us shouldn't really mind Turrin for obvious reasons.. 

on-topic:-

like i said before, all akatsuki members bar Hidan can potentially solo a village.. only a few can solo powerhouse villages like konoha and kumo.. 

all were defeated via PNJ(except hidan and konan; but bad opponents).. 

when looking at it if we switch the battles we were gonna have boring one shot fights 

Pain's too much for a non-chakra beast like sasuke
Itachi's genjutsu is too much for naruto
Deidara would blow wind-training naruto up with out any lightning attacks to counter the clay
Kakuzu beats sasuke without kirin(amaterasu)..
Sasori would one-shot shikamaru..
Hidan would rape sakura cuz she's close-rang..

etc..


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## goldendriger (Jul 7, 2011)

Gai is Jonin? Where have you been? Kakashi and Gai are considered equals for a reason, and they are both Kage level (Although Gai needs gates, it still stands)
Id also say Kisame is Kage level and Sasori is Jonin level. Unless you mean Sakura beat a kage =/


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

when you put a character in a certain tier you dont go A>B>C, so Sakura and Chiyo defeating Sasori was good match up for Sakura, anyone else would have died for poison.  It doesn't mean Sasori isn't Kage level.

Another comment I wanna add, is not to blame Turrin for his comments blame it on the the Kage level limit, we need to stop seeing Kage level as the highest level, because one character that might be Kage lv now but in the future can get outpowered by so many characters that its actually downgraded in comparison, so like I said in a post above is time we start classifying different levels of Kage since the manga power scale has already passed the Kage level mark.


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## mmzrmx (Jul 7, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Konan needs prep to every Kage level jutsu she does. She is just a elite Shinobi. A Kage canddate if you prefer, she is on kakashi's level.
> 
> Kakuzu was sent because someone wanted kakuzu to go, maybe to kill Kakuzu.
> 
> ...



Itachi never said Kisame would lose to Kakashi, just that he would take too much time fighting him and possibly get injured. You should also consider that Kisame probably couldn't use his full arsenal in such a fight seeing how a giant water dome in the middle of Konoha might be just a tad suspicious.


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## dungsi27 (Jul 7, 2011)

I wouldnt say so.For example:

-Madara is definitely kage level,even in his weaken state.
-Pein,well,obviously is kage level.
-Konan is elite Jounin I guess.
-Zetsu is kage level I guess.
-Itachi is kage level obviously.
-Kisame is kage level obviously.
-Orochimaru is kage level obviously.
-Kakuzu is kage level obviously.
-Hidan is elite Jounin level I guess.
-Sasori is kage level obviously.
-Deidara is kage level obviously.


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## Gino (Jul 7, 2011)

MR T said:


> They are all kage level...





Divinstrosity said:


> They all qualify as "Kage level". Every Akatsuki posed very unique, high level threats to their opponent(s)



Took this long for these post to show up sad........


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## Unknown (Jul 7, 2011)

goldendriger said:


> Gai is Jonin? Where have you been? Kakashi and Gai are considered equals for a reason, and they are both Kage level (Although Gai needs gates, it still stands)
> Id also say Kisame is Kage level and Sasori is Jonin level. Unless you mean Sakura beat a kage =/



Neither Gai or Kakashi are kage level. They are Kage candidate. They will only have chances of being a Kage if other guys above them died, the Kage level ninjas.

Minato was Kage level that's why he took the Kage position over Hiruzen. Kakashi and Gai aren't Kage level, they won't be able to take tsunade's position over her. The fire Daimyo thinks of Tsunade over Kakashi or Gai.

Kisame isn't Kage level, Kisame is just a elite jounin that only aganist an specific type of enemies, the ones witha  lot of chakra, he gains the Kage level power.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jul 7, 2011)

all the akatsuki (except hidan) are kage level.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 7, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Deidara/Kisame>Kakuzu.
> 
> I agree that Kakuzu is Kage level, he was playing with kakashi and his back-up, and if it was not for PIS he could of killed naruto.
> 
> But he is not stronger then Deidara/kisame, so i do not understand how you can say Kakuzu is kage level and not them.



I dont think so 

Kakazu took on multiple High/Elite Jonin and Chunnin(Kakashi, Asuma, Yamato) with no problems at all

Meanwhile, Kisame nearly gets oneshotted on seperate occasions by Jonin and Kage Levels

Kurenai, Asuma, Gai, Yamato, and Jiriaya almost one shotted Kisame

Itachi thought Kisame would've got injured going up against Kakashi's clone

Meanwhile, Kakazu dominated Part 2 Kakashi(whose way stronger than Part 1 Kakashi)

A case could be made for Deidara as he was facing Hebi Sasuke
Who I believe is low-end Kage Level

But the fact that he was pretty much outmatched in every single way(speed, intelligence, ninjutsu)
Leads me to believe he is an High End Elite Jonin

Kakashi almost killed Deidara

On the other hand, he was moments away from getting his heart ripped out by Kakuzu

I don't see neither Kisame or Deidara doing better than Kakuzu in the situations he was in

He is a more powerful ninja than both

Who he matched up against proves that (Kakashi/Yamato)




Unknown said:


> Konan needs prep to every Kage level jutsu she does. She is just a elite Shinobi. A Kage canddate if you prefer, she is on kakashi's level.
> 
> Kakuzu was sent because someone wanted kakuzu to go, maybe to kill Kakuzu.
> 
> ...



This.


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## Santoryu (Jul 7, 2011)

What on earth am I reading.

Tsunade is kage level. (I'm sure everyone can agree on that)

Why should Kakashi/Guy/Kisame not be considered kage level? 

They are "Kage candidate level"? Wtf -_- Kakashi was moments away from being hokage, so would people still say he was "Kage candidate level" had that happened? No.


----------



## Sniffers (Jul 7, 2011)

Rather all most Kage are Elite Jounin level. 


After all, a Kage is simply a shinobi, often the best Jounin, given authority. It's not like that authority is a power-up of their personal abilities.


----------



## principito (Jul 7, 2011)

Zor0 said:


> What on earth am I reading.
> 
> Tsunade is kage level. (I'm sure everyone can agree on that)
> 
> ...





Sniffers said:


> Rather all most Kage are Elite Jounin level.
> 
> 
> After all, a Kage is simply a shinobi, often the best Jounin, given authority. It's not like that authority is a power-up of their personal abilities.



Agreed with both posts...

The only thing is that Konoha really lowered its standards with Tsunade so it creates confusion... now people thing everybody and their moms are kage-level.

Yes... every kage is a jounin... but not every jounin could be kage.


----------



## Unknown (Jul 7, 2011)

Zor0 said:


> What on earth am I reading.
> 
> Tsunade is kage level. (I'm sure everyone can agree on that)
> 
> ...



Tsunade still hasn't show her best at all.

Kakashi was about to become Hokage because the real Hokage couldn't keep with the tittle, It's not like Minato that took the title over Hiruzen.

In Kakashi's case he is the guy that could be a Kage if the kages died. No a real kage lvel guy, a real kage level guy would have been promoted to Hokage over Tsunade..., the way Naruto will be.

The kages were able to lolstomp Sasuke, who was only able to injured A because A choose to let Sasuke injure him. But that Sasuke that was stomped by the Kage level guys, It's the same one that could defeat or at least give a real fight to Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori, Deidara, Konan, Darui, Kakashi, Gai...


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## Federer (Jul 7, 2011)

In order to beat Sasuke, the Raikage sacrificed his arm and was planning on giving up his leg and or more if the Amaterasu spread to his entire body. 

If it wasn't for Shi who is a medic, the Raikage himself would have died aswell if he continued with the attack, *assuming* the attack would have penetrated Sasuke's defense. 

Lol at the whole Kage 'stomping' Sasuke. Both Mei and Onoki fought against a tired/injured Sasuke.

I just love it when the villains die after the story progresses, people immediately underestimate them. 

They already forgot that Deidara soloed the Sanbi, as if Madara was planning on showing Deidara his power, took down the Godaime Kazekage, Sasori took down Sandaime Kazekage, Orochimaru took down Yondaime Kazekage and Sandaime Hokage, Kisame took down two Jinchuuriki, Nagato took down Jiraiya, Hanzo, Kakashi and the rest of Konoha, Hidan and Kakuzu took down Asuma, the latter also fought Kakashi and was having the upperhand.


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## Axccel (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Strongest Kazekage in history isn't that strong. He got owned by Sakura and Chiyo.
> 
> Besides, Sasori could have easily poisoned or used his genjutsu to control 3rd Kazekage.
> 
> Did you know a weak shinobi can kill a strong shinobi just by a sneak attack. They are ninja's.



Sasori IS the Sand's strongest ninja ever produced. I don't think sneak attack equates to Sasori's own words of him putting up a hell of a fight against him.


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## Cursed Avenger (Jul 7, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> You mean Kisame without Samehada against Gai with 7 gates? And Kisame only lost because he thought Gai's attack contained chakra...


 
Quite possibly the most nonsensical thing I've read in this manga. There is no way for Gai to be able to mold and use Daytime Tiger without any chakra. He makes a seal and causes the vacuum of air to take shape on its own? Even if it was a byproduct of using the Gates, he's overflowing with chakra....don't even get me started on the blue flaming sweat....F*** everything about that fight. *Sigh* I'm done my rant.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 7, 2011)

Akatsuki rankings that make sense 

*Z (God Tier)*
Rikudou Pain, Rinnegan (current) Madara

*S+ (Elite Kage)*
crippled Nagato/ healthy full-vision Itachi

*S (Kage)*
sickly blind Itachi / Sasori / Orochimaru

*S- (Kage Candidate)*
Deidara / Kakuzu / Kisame / Konan

*A+ (Elite Jonin)*
Hidan


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## Draffut (Jul 7, 2011)

If we want to make a 'kage level' it would start with the weakest kage/kage candidate.

That is probably Kakashi.

Now every Akatsuki except Hidan could at least fight evenly with Kakashi, so I would have to put them as 'Kage level'.

yes, if we are talking about the top end most powerful tier of Kage's, then only Nagato, Madara, Itachi, and Sasori make the cut.  Maybe Lord Zetsu, we'll have to see what he is capable of.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 7, 2011)

Kage and Kage Candidate are the same thing, since the Kage Candidates are the ones who are the new Kages, and Kage Candidates are recognized as ones who may lead the village.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 7, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Kage and Kage Candidate are the same thing, since the Kage Candidates are the ones who are the new Kages, and Kage Candidates are recognized as ones who may lead the village.



We know that, but its a fan term. Just like Elite Kage/Jonin

There are no official ranks between Jonin and Kage

Yet the difference between can be huge (also due to part II power scaling), hence this forum "needs" to invent tiers/classes to make some sense


----------



## Raiden (Jul 7, 2011)

Unknown said:


> Konan needs prep to every Kage level jutsu she does. She is just a elite Shinobi. A Kage canddate if you prefer, she is on kakashi's level.



As did Orochimaru with Edo Tensei. And he ended up killing Sandaimage Hokage.  Efficiency isn't the biggest factor in determining the skill level of a jutsu. 




Unknown said:


> Kakuzu was sent because someone wanted kakuzu to go, maybe to kill Kakuzu.



This can't be true. Remember that Taikgakure's backlash against Kakuzu was precisely the reason why he abandoned it. They had high expectations for him; clearly he was respected as a "kage level" shinobi."



Unknown said:


> Kisame isn't a Kage level shinobi. Even Itachi stated that Kisame would have loose aganist Kakashi. Kisame has simple the luck to become stronger aganist people witha  lot of chakra. So he is a Kakashi level shinobi that has a power up if his enemy has a lot of chakra. But aganist Kage level shinobis that aren't chakra beast Kisame would lose easily. Gai isn't a Kage level shinobi either. It has been stated many many times that Gai is Kakashi's level.



You're undermining how unique Kisame's abnormal chakra capacity is with Samehada. There are biju level comparisons. We can't simply say that this is only what is unique about him. He defeated Roshi without the intention to kill, who was by his own admission, a very talented Lava Release User. Madara also respectably addressed him for his talents with that release. 

Kakashi's is acknowledged around the Naruto world for his talents and was even strongly recommended to become the Hokage. If that doesnt constitute being "Hokage level," I don't know what does.

I think everyone is getting carried away in comparisons, including the OP. The kage alive right now are among the greatest shinobi of all time. You can't downgrade other shinobi just because their talents seem to be inferior to thatt of immortal zombies.

DanE is correct. "Kage level" encompasses a large pool of shinobi who aren't all on the same level, and we should perhaps referring to these shinobi as "low" or "middle" kage. But "kage level" nevertheless. 



Unknown said:


> Most of Akatsukis were on par or barely above Kakashi. Kakashi isn't Kage level. Kakashi is a Kage candidate, Kakashi is a guy that will only be Kage if the Kage level guys in his village die, he is the second option.



He was the first option when discussions began. Danzo scared the Daiymo into making him the interim Hokage. Now, in terms of overall strength, he is undoubtedly second to Naruto. But who isn't? There aren't many ninja who can beat Naruto now. 



Unknown said:


> take as example MS Sasuke. *He was defeated by almost all the Kages, he could only injure a Kage that choose to let Sasuke injure him*.... But Sasuke would have won or at least give a very good fight aganist any of those Akatsukis.



You're kind of undermining Sasuke's power level here. 

>The Raikage nearly killed himself in attempting to take out Sasuke, almost ostensibly killing both of them

>His Susano-o proved to be more absolute than Gaara's absolute defense, and all the attacks of the other elite jonin failed. 

>Sasuke actually killed the interim Hokage. 

I think Sasuke put up a respectable effort against the kage, sometimes having to handle more than one at once. There isn't that much of a power gap between himself and the others.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

I just cannot believe how anyone can claim Kisame is not a Kage level shinobi.

Let not forget Kisame's incredible durability feats. I believe its one of the best in the manga. He has also shown that he can fight/deal with fast characters as he was able to keep up as well as fight with two of the fastest character in the manga, Killer Bee and Maito Gai. He has shown that speed does not create a disadvantage. So not even RM Naruto could blitz this guy.

Kisame first tanked RM Naruto punch like it was nothing. It did cause Kisame to spit out blood. Then he tanked Gai's Leaf Boulder Buster which sent him flying through the rocky waterfall. His chakra absorption is incredibly fast according to Aoba, being able to suck the chakra out of his stone Kunai. At the same time Kisame blocked Gai's Whirlwind kick. Kisame then outrun Gai on water. The Super 6th Gate Gai needed Bee and a turtle help to catch up to Kisame. Gai's after noon tiger caused a massive damage to the land scape, leaving nothing but water's behind and Kisame managed to survive that which would have killed any other shinobi's (Even Orochimaru). According to manga, afternoon tiger can kill someone in one hit. Then severely injured Kisame was able to tank 7th Gate punch. After all that Kisame still had enough strength to break the mokuton prison and use Water Prison Technique and summon sharks. He then died like a boss.

Did I mention his a swordsman? Well guess what, he did all that without his sword. 

Now think of Kisame with his sword and going all out. You can easily place him above Kage's such as Gaara, Gaara's dad, Tsunade and Mei. While he can rival that position with Raikage.


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> We know that, but its a fan term. Just like Elite Kage/Jonin
> 
> There are no official ranks between Jonin and Kage
> 
> Yet the difference between can be huge (also due to part II power scaling), hence this forum "needs" to invent tiers/classes to make some sense



yes, yes and Yes 

We should have done this months ago.


----------



## Klue (Jul 7, 2011)

Akatsuki is a group forged of top-rank shinobi, by definition. Yes, that includes Hidan. I thought that is what the author wanted us to believe.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

Klue said:


> Akatsuki is a group forged of top-rank shinobi, by definition. Yes, that includes Hidan. I thought that is what the author wanted us to believe.



No, Hidan was in akatsuki because of his immortality ability. Kakuzu likes to kill his akatsuki partners thats why Hidan was hired.


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

Nah with no intel, Hidan can probably kill anyone.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 7, 2011)

bearzerger said:


> Nah, you are just too much in awe of Itachi's MS to see clearly.



I am not sure if a certified Itachi hater like you has the objectivity to state such a thing.


> Itachi had already trouble seeing in the beginning of the fight.


Which didn't pose any problems for him apparently. 



> And his jutsu clearly were lacking in power because he was low on stamina.


Fanfiction.



> All he had were the three MS jutsu.


What does this even mean ? 



> Tsukiyomi is worthless if an opponent on the kage's level knows about it,


fanfiction.



> his Amaterasu was worse than Sasuke's at the kage summit


no it is not. Sasuke has the ability to alter the shape of it. Going by feats, Itachi's Amaterasu has better destructive power. So I am not sure how is it possible to claim such thing.



> and he lost one of his eyes like ten seconds after using it and


After 2 shots of it. After having the MS on for like 10 years.




> with Susanoo he was only forcing himself to remain alive for each instant it took him to draw Oro out of Sasuke.


Itachi maintained Susano'o perfectly until Orochimaru was gone. And after then he still was able to manifest it in stage 3 with the legendary items. 


> That is how weakened Itachi was by his illness.


Thats how you want to portray him which is far far from the truth.




> Now if he had been healthy Itachi would have had what it took to be Minato's worthy successor, but he wasn't. It's that simple.


Itachi'd 2 panel Minato with sharingan genjutsu. It is THAT simple 



> I don't know about the Mizukage, we haven't seen her go all out, but she does have two kekkai genkai which may have worked even against Itachi's Susanoo


fanfic.


> and I would expect her to atleast be able to outlast Itachi if she can't match him power outright.


fanfic.


> As for the Gaara who dealt with Sasuke's Enton like it was only a pesky annoyance and who no doubt has gotten far stronger since he fought Deidara,



assumption.


> I actually expect Gaara to be stronger than Itachi was.



fanfiction/fanwank



> Gaara stands a very good chance of becoming the number 2 when the story is over.



assumption/wanking.



> The only one who'll be stronger is Naruto. And I guess Sasuke should he survive.


I guess you are going to write the story yourself huh ?


----------



## Klue (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> No, Hidan was in akatsuki because of his immortality ability. Kakuzu likes to kill his akatsuki partners thats why Hidan was hired.



Hidan was still a strong shinobi, regardless.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

DanE said:


> Nah with no intel, Hidan can probably kill anyone.





Klue said:


> Hidan was still a strong shinobi, regardless.



That is true but not against Kage Level shinobi's. They will not allow Hidan get close to them in order for him to get some blood. When they see his Scythe none of them will even attempt to fight him close when they have long range jutsu's. 

Only characters like Asuma will get owned by Hidan who have absolutely no long range attacks and are quite slow and require help from another shinobi when fighting in close range.


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## Klue (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> That is true but not against Kage Level shinobi's. They will not allow Hidan get close to them in order for him to get some blood. When they see his Scythe none of them will even attempt to fight him close when they have long range jutsu's.
> 
> Only characters like Asuma will get owned by Hidan who have absolutely no long range attacks and are quite slow and require help from another shinobi when fighting in close range.



You can't possible speak for every character and every circumstance imaginable. He is a high-level shinobi, we're better off simply leaving it at that.


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## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jul 7, 2011)

Everyone in akatsuki is kage level 

S class criminal = Kage level for bad guys 

Sasori killed the strongest kazekage in history 

Oro killed the fouth kaze 

Kakazu before gaining grudge fear fought the 1st hokage and lived to talk about it 

these feats go on this team Akatsuki was used to be a supremely strong mercenary force but there main purpose was TO HUNT TAILED BEASTS GAINT MONSTERS WITH IMMENSE LEVELS OF CHAKRA AND POWER a jonin cant take on of these down you HAVE to be kage level to fight toe to toe against these creatures

 Kakashi cant beat a bijju  , Darui cant , Zabuza , Guy cant , gari , pakura , Torori , cannot beat a biju WHY? its very simple there not kage level 

now kage simply means the strongest person in a village any akatsui can be kage if they were good there all capable of protecting a village most of which can destroy a village by themselves

everyone has different ways of measuring kage level i see it like this if you can solo a army or a bijju your kage level 

Minato has soloed a army before , Sasuke can do it , Naruto can take on a bijju , the third in his prime could take a army , muu can do it and Akatsuki.... EVERYONE IN AKATSUKI CAN DO THESE THINGS despite what your personally preference/bias would lead you to believe they have killed kages takin on giant monsters and won there powerful period 

dont let the hype from a current chapter blind you from logic also for those saying hidan isnt strong hes a skilled taijutsu user , he only has to cut you once , and hes immortal...  that means you can stab him , hit with rasengans ect hes still alive and HE ONLY HAS TO CUT YOU ONCE 
then people are going to say: OH BUT IF YOU BUT OFF HIS HEAD HES DONE FOR! 

This manga is about humans with powers cutting off anyones head kills instantly it aint easy to do so anyway is it easy to cut off kakashi's head? because you know if you cut off his head its wrap right?  yea... hes kage level like the rest


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## David (Jul 7, 2011)

Seeing how an Elite Jounin can be anything between Shizune level and the the strongest in a village, you are correct.

*Edit:* There is no such thing as "Kage-level", but I guess you can refer to "the average level of a Kage".  But Elite Jounin, as far as I'm aware, is the highest "official" rank there is.


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## Jizznificent (Jul 7, 2011)

what is someone like killer bee? a kage level shinobi or an elite jounin? to me they pretty much mean the same thing. in fact, "elite jounin" doesn't exist in the manga in the context that we use it; it mean something completely different in the manga. there are only academic, genin, chunnin, jounin and kage level; sub-categorizing them is just fanfiction, which can complicate things for no reason.

we can't forget the fact that shit in this manga can work like rock-paper-scissors; even chunnin level ninjas can loose to genin level ninja, even jounin level ninja could potential lose against a chunnin level ninja and so on. there are many factors that come into play, and not just whom is at a higher level then whom.

at the end of the day, imo, ninjas like kakashi, gai, deidara, kakazu, kisame are high classed shinobi that can mingle with some of the best of them if given the opportunity (and maybe even beat them in some cases). 

that is all. 

oh, my 2000th post... :WOW


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 7, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Akatsuki rankings that make sense
> 
> *Z (God Tier)*
> Rikudou Pain, Rinnegan (current) Madara
> ...



wrong.. Itachi and Oro can never be in the same tier


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 7, 2011)

If a person can beat one of the kages even if they have a unique advantage, i think that person deserves to be called Kage level.

Kisame/Deidara i believe can beat all of the current kages besides Onoki, and can beat pretty much beat everybody that i consider a Elite Jounin.

So for me Kisame/Deidara are kage level, its just that simple.


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## DanE (Jul 7, 2011)

Khris said:


> wrong.. Itachi and Oro can never be in the same tier



wtf, we can say Orochimarus weakness was the Sharingan Genjutsu but everyone has a weakness Orichimaru was just overwhelmed in Genjutsu thats all.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 7, 2011)

Mangekyou Byakugan said:
			
		

> Kakazu took on multiple High/Elite Jonin and Chunnin(Kakashi, Asuma, Yamato) with no problems at all



He never fought them all at the same time by himself. Really, there's nothing substantial there.



> Meanwhile, Kisame nearly gets oneshotted on seperate occasions by Jonin and Kage Levels
> 
> Kurenai, Asuma, Gai, Yamato, and Jiriaya almost one shotted Kisame



Kisame noticing he was in a genjutsu was not him getting one-shotted. Asuma and Yamato couldn't come close to doing such a thing.

Guy needed 7 gates to beat Kisame w/out Samehada, and he was basically Kisame's counter.



> Itachi thought Kisame would've got injured going up against Kakashi's clone



That's part 1 stuff. We watched a swordless Kisame defend well against 6 gated Guy's Asakujaku.



> Meanwhile, Kakazu dominated Part 2 Kakashi(whose way stronger than Part 1 Kakashi)



I agree, but Kakashi seemed to imply that the usage of Kamui would have made a difference somehow. 



> A case could be made for Deidara as he was facing Hebi Sasuke
> Who I believe is low-end Kage Level
> 
> But the fact that he was pretty much outmatched in every single way(speed, intelligence, ninjutsu)
> Leads me to believe he is an High End Elite Jonin



Sasuke needed CSL2 and an elemental advantage to beat Deidara. 



> Kakashi almost killed Deidara
> 
> On the other hand, he was moments away from getting his heart ripped out by Kakuzu



In one scenario, Kakashi used Kamui, and in the other, he did not. Also, Kakashi brought himself to chakra exhaustion trying to attack and defend against Deidara...while Deidara had almost no clay and missing arms the whole time.



> Who he matched up against proves that (Kakashi/Yamato)



I think you need to re-read some stuff if you think he was ever remotely matched up against Yamato. Yamato attacked him and Kakuzu dodged. That's it.


----------



## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 7, 2011)

DanE said:


> wtf, we can say Orochimarus weakness was the Sharingan Genjutsu but everyone has a weakness Orichimaru was just overwhelmed in Genjutsu thats all.



so itachi's entire arsenal is oro's weakness? thats not on the same level..

oro already stated it out right.. itachi is stronger.. nuff said..


----------



## vagnard (Jul 7, 2011)

I want to know why people consider Konan "kage level". 

What she did to be considered on that level?. 

Jiraiya owned her in 2 seconds. 

Against Pre-Rinnegan Madara she needed a lot of prep time and she still failed. 

The only reason because she gave problems to Madara in first place was because he needed her alive. Otherwise he could just stopped the absorption and became intangible when he realized Konan's papers were explosive tags. 

Konan didn't much better against Madara than Fuu and Torune. 2 guys nobody would put even close to kage level.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 7, 2011)

Jiraiya knew how to stop her paper dispersion. He's probably the only one who knows how(except maybe Nagato). Konan without prep is debatable. But with prep, her _Kami no Shisha_ almost killed Madara. And if Madara hadn't absorbed her explosion, they'd both be dead. And Konan fucked up Madara, pretty badly compared to Fuu and Torune. I don't know about him needing her alive. Did he make any remark of this?


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 7, 2011)

Khris said:


> wrong.. Itachi and Oro can never be in the same tier



I put a sickly Itachi with shitty stamina and pretty much being blind on Orochimaru's tier. 

That seems kinda fair to me


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Akatsuki rankings that make sense
> 
> *Z (God Tier)*
> Rikudou Pain, Rinnegan (current) Madara
> ...



Apart from where Hidan, Sasori and Konan placed, I agree with this placement. 

Sasori is A+ Elite Jonin along with Konan.
Hidan is at the bottom tier of Elite Jonin.

Too many people are overrating Hidan.


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## vagnard (Jul 7, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Jiraiya knew how to stop her paper dispersion. He's probably the only one who knows how(except maybe Nagato).



There are tons of ninjas that could do even better than oil... Kurotsuchi with her cement no jutsu, Mizukage with her boil release, Tsuchikage with his Jinton, etc...

There are many jutsus capable to wipe Konan's papers completely. 



Empathy said:


> But with prep, her _Kami no Shisha_ almost killed Madara. And if Madara hadn't absorbed her explosion, they'd both be dead.And Konan fucked up Madara, pretty badly compared to Fuu and Torune. I don't know about him needing her alive. Did he make any remark of this?



Madara said he needed to thank him for saving both of them. Madara needed her alive to get Rinnegan's location. 

"All I need to do now is *capture* you". 



If Madara wanted he could just became intangible instead keep absorbing the explosion.


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## kagegak (Jul 7, 2011)

Pain-Higher than Kage
Madara-Higher than kage
==================
Itachi-High Kage
Sasori-High Kage
==================
Kisame-Mid Kage
Deidara-Mid Kage
Kakuzu-Mid Kage
==================
Konan-Low Kage
==================
Hidan-Elite jounin


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## VoDe (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Apart from where Hidan, Sasori and Konan placed, I agree with this placement.
> 
> *Sasori is A+ Elite Jonin along with Konan.*
> Hidan is at the bottom tier of Elite Jonin.
> ...



*Seiously?*

Guy who killed the Third Kazekage, who was said to be the strongest ninja in the history of Sunagakure. Guy who owned one whole country. 

Deidara himself even admitted that Sasori was stronger of the two. And you're saying Deidara > Sasori.

He's certainly strong as Orochimaru and sick Itachi.

Sasori is one of the most underrated characters.


----------



## shintebukuro (Jul 7, 2011)

vagnard said:


> I want to know why people consider Konan "kage level".
> 
> What she did to be considered on that level?.
> 
> ...



It's hard to look at her technique and deny the sheer scope of it: _unsure_

And to utterly defeat Madara (minus Izanagi of course) is quite a task, even given the prep and intel she had. 

I don't worry about her performance against Jiraiya too much. She didn't have the resolve she had against Madara.



> Madara said he needed to thank him for saving both of them.



Umm, he didn't take any measure there to "save" her. He needed to absorb the explosion so *he* wouldn't die, and it saved her as well.



> If Madara wanted he could just became intangible instead keep absorbing the explosion.



He was already in the process of absorbing her when he noticed there were explosive tags and they started exploding. Her explosive papers were swirling around going into his dimension as he realized it. 

Her plan was solid, and almost killed him, but he was just faster.


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## Ejenku (Jul 7, 2011)

Madara Nagato Itachi Orochimaru( in full health+edo tensei) Sasori(with all his puppets) are high Kage lvl 

Kisame Deidara Kakuzu are kage lvl 

Konan Zetsu Hidan are elite jonn lvl


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jul 7, 2011)

sasori > 3rd kazekage > 4th kazekage


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Apart from where Hidan, Sasori and Konan placed, I agree with this placement.
> 
> Sasori is A+ Elite Jonin along with Konan.
> Hidan is at the bottom tier of Elite Jonin.
> ...



Absolutely not. Why the hate against Sasori?

If you honestly think Sasori is that weak you're pretty much deneying manga facts 



VoDe said:


> *Seiously?*
> 
> Guy who killed the Third Kazekage, who was said to be the strongest ninja in the history of Sunagakure. Guy who owned one whole country.
> 
> ...



Truth. Also Sasori is a BOSS



PrazzyP said:


> sasori > 3rd kazekage > 4th kazekage



Sasori, sofar nr1 Shinobi in Suna

Curious to see how Gaara is gonna top him


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 7, 2011)

Sasori and Hidan is the most overrated character. Sasori beat 3rd Kazekage and that automatically puts him on Kage tier? Seriously guys, for all we know he could have been his perfect counter. For all we know the fight between them could have lasted few minutes. For all we know Sasori could have sneaked attack him. For all we know Sasori could have poisoned him. We do not know what happened during their fight. He just defeated him like Itachi beat Orochimaru.

Hidan with or without knowledge is not worth to be in the highest level of elite jonin tier. Thats like placing him on Gai level. Thats not happening. I'll make a thread on these two character later.


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 7, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sasori and Hidan is the most overrated character. Sasori beat 3rd Kazekage and that automatically puts him on Kage tier? Seriously guys,* for all we know he could have been his perfect counter*.



Not likely. Sasori is a Puppet user, while Sandaime uses Satetsu. Th Iron Sand was said to clog Puppets rendering them useless. Sasori also used this trick with his Sandaime Puppet

If anything Sasori was in a disadvantage being a Puppet User going against Satetsu



> For all we know the fight between them could have lasted few minutes. For all we know Sasori could have sneaked attack him. For all we know Sasori could have poisoned him. We do not know what happened during their fight. He just defeated him like Itachi beat Orochimaru.



Sasori indicated he had a lot of trouble to kill/aquire Sandaime. This alone would suggest it was not a easy sneak kill or OHKO poison or something like that. It rather suggests a drawn out battle were Sasori was pushed to his limits (or even beyond)
As for the example between Oro & Itachi.....you do know Itachi is far superior rite 



> Hidan with or without knowledge is not worth to be in the highest level of elite jonin tier. Thats like placing him on Gai level. Thats not happening. I'll make a thread on these two character later.



Hidan himself admitted to be the slowest Akatsuki. He wont be able to scratch higher level fighters. Kakashi was holding his own in a taijutsu skirmish against Hidan while being chased by Kakuzu's hearts

Hidan just aint gonna catch higher level opponents



Also what so hard to give Sasori his props?
- Dude has haxxx jutsy with his OHKO posion scratch
- Genius of the Sand (full 5/5 intelligence marks in DB)
- Deidara admitted inferiority
- Raped a country
- Killed strongest Kazekage in history
- 100 Puppets, Satetsu for offense, immortal
- Pain expressed disbelief at his defeat
- Has MASSIVE databook stats, only surpassed by the Sannin (barely) and of course Itachi


Of course you can make up some kinda battle scenario where Sasori would lose to Deidara or Kakuzu or something, but in general he is more well-rounded and superior then most his Akatsuki peers.

Not to mention the story parralells Sasori had with Orochimaru. Sasori was basically Suna's version of Orochimaru
- quest for immortaility
- Lost parents at young age, which was a trigger for both in their behavior change
- both hailed as genius at their respective villages
- Similarity in their jutsu involving the death: Hitokugutsu vs Edo's
- Both killed a Sandaime Kage. Ironically it was the Sandaime who was considered the strongest Hokage of all and strongest Kazekage of all


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## Zen-aku (Jul 7, 2011)

vagnard said:


> I want to know why people consider Konan "kage level".
> 
> What she did to be considered on that level?.
> 
> ...


the only reason she "failed" is because Madara Literally *Bent  the laws of reality so he wouldn't Die*

And Jiraiya  was just a bad match for her [he did train her after all]


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## AKmyWaffle (Jul 7, 2011)

Tobi-Higher than kage
Itachi(Sick)-Higher than Kage
Pain-Higher than Kage
Orochimaru(With Edos)-Higher than Kage
==================
Kisame-High Kage
Deidara-High Kage
Sasori-High Kage
==================
Kakuzu-Mid Kage
==================
Konan-Low Kage
==================
Hidan-Elite jounin
==================
Tsunade-Mid jounin


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## vagnard (Jul 7, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> It's hard to look at her technique and deny the sheer scope of it: Link removed
> 
> And to utterly defeat Madara (minus Izanagi of course) is quite a task, even given the prep and intel she had.



Madara wasn't fighting to kill her. Besides he had to save her ass in first place. She had the biggest amount of prep time in the whole manga and she still failed. 



shintebukuro said:


> I don't worry about her performance against Jiraiya too much. She didn't have the resolve she had against Madara.



I could agree with this if she just lost against Jiraiya but SHE WAS UTTERLY PWNED BY JIRAIYA. There is no excuse. 



shintebukuro said:


> Umm, he didn't take any measure there to "save" her. He needed to absorb the explosion so *he* wouldn't die, and it saved her as well.He was already in the process of absorbing her when he noticed there were explosive tags and they started exploding. Her explosive papers were swirling around going into his dimension as he realized it.



Read that battle again. When Konan used her Kami no Shisha no Jutsu Madara could stop his teleporting/phasing during the process to became intangible in an instant when he was falling into the sea of paper. So he can shift to his intangible mode when he his using his S/T without any problem. 

He needed to absorb the explosion TO SAVE BOTH OF THEM. If he just wanted to save himself he could let her die. He stated earlier he wanted to capture her. 

Even absorbing the whole explosion didn't kill him. So stopping the process would just cause Konan die and Madara barely scratched. 

Besides the very fact Konan started with a Kamikaze attack shows she wasn't even close to Pre-Rinnegan Madara's level. Just like how Deidara used his C0 when he realized he couldn't beat Sasuke. 

The difference is Deidara used his suicide jutsu at the end of the battle while Konan recognized the difference between them from the beginning and went for self sacrifice attack. 




shintebukuro said:


> Her plan was solid, and almost killed him, but he was just faster.



Her plan involved to die with Madara, not to fight Madara at all. 

If I go to battle Tyson with an explosive belt means I'm on his level?. No in fact I realize I'm gonna get raped so my only chance is take him out with a suicide attack.


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## Draffut (Jul 7, 2011)

AKmyWaffle said:


> Tsunade-Mid jounin



Hello troll, how are you today?



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sasori and Hidan is the most overrated character. Sasori beat 3rd Kazekage and that automatically puts him on Kage tier?



He did beat the most powerful Kazekage.



> Seriously guys, for all we know he could have been his perfect counter.



How so?  We already saw in his fight with Chiyo that iron sand is a great counter to puppets.



> For all we know the fight between them could have lasted few minutes. For all we know Sasori could have sneaked attack him.  For all we know Sasori could have poisoned him. We do not know what happened during their fight. He just defeated him like Itachi beat Orochimaru.



First, Sasori implies it was a long difficult fight, and the databook also supports this:

_Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the strongest would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his* painstakingly defeated opponent*, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart._



> Hidan with or without knowledge is not worth to be in the highest level of elite jonin tier. Thats like placing him on Gai level. Thats not happening. I'll make a thread on these two character later.



Gai wouldn't be able to kill Hidan anyhow.  He would use gates, slap him around for a few minutes, then Hidan just cuts him afterwards.


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## ? (Jul 7, 2011)

All members of Akatsuki were said to be S-class ninja, aka "Kage level".


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## Empathy (Jul 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sasori and Hidan is the most overrated character. Sasori beat 3rd Kazekage and that automatically puts him on Kage tier? Seriously guys, for all we know he could have been his perfect counter. For all we know the fight between them could have lasted few minutes. For all we know Sasori could have sneaked attack him. For all we know Sasori could have poisoned him. We do not know what happened during their fight. He just defeated him like Itachi beat Orochimaru.
> 
> Hidan with or without knowledge is not worth to be in the highest level of elite jonin tier. Thats like placing him on Gai level. Thats not happening. I'll make a thread on these two character later.



I have to disagree. Especially on the Sasori assessment. Not only did Sasori defeat the Sandaime Kazekage, said to be the most powerful of all the Kazekages. And if anyone was the 'perfect counter' it was the Sandaime Kazekage. His _Satetsu_ clogs puppets, rendering them useless. Not to mention his Jiton, attracting Sasori's metallic weapons. Not only did he defeat him. He took his power and made it more lethal. He controls all of the Sandaime Kazekage's power(drenched in poison) added to his own power. So even by default Sasori is > Greatest Kazekage in history. So already by default Sasori should be Kage lvl. Not to mention his own Jutsu. The merits of his _Aka Higi: Hyakki no Soen_ allowed him to defeat an entire country. 

Granted this country probably wasn't very strong, with an adequate military force, still I don't know many Elite Jounin that can solo countries. All this added to a when a single scratch from him means certain death. Also, I consider Hidan on the high end of Elite Jounin level. I consider him on par with some people like Darui for example. Gai on the other hand I'd call more of Low Kage lvl. He's considered Hatake Kakashi's equal, who was almost named Hokage twice, and has been mentioned on more than one occasion to make an excellent decision as Rokudaime Hokage. Hidan is especially more lethal without knowledge of his abilities. Then he's able to acquire blood and preform his ritual much easier. Especially when they think they've won, when they strike a fatal wound, and then he takes them off guard, and a single drop of blood is game over.


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## LeeTheG7 (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm going to use some common sense because those who don't think Akatsuki are Kage level need some common sense.

1. Pain obviously way above Kage level
2. Itachi obviously way above Kage level
3. Black Zetsu(yeah we don't know him but lets face it he was willing to take on Mizukage and a whole bunch of Jonins) when we see what he can do he will be above Kage level.
4. Kisame: he didn't break much of a sweat beating both the 4 tails and killer Bee. We all know that Killer Bee is above Kage level but 4 tails could also be around Kage level.
5. Saosri: He killed the 3rd Kaze Kage how much more proof do you need?
6. Deidara: beat the 5th Kazekage fairly easily like Kisame vs Bee it was a decent fight but Deidara had control most of the time. what more proof do you need with Deidara?
7. Kakuzu: he pimp slapped Asuma with a brief case and beat up on Kakashi more then anyone who fought Kakashi.
8. Konan: put up a fight against a tough Madara. Yeah it wasn't the mighty Madara but that version is still tricky and she did better then anyone else thats tried fighting him.
9 Hidan: The two tails could be somewhere between Kage level and jonin and he beat her easily not to mention he could beat Asuma while watching out for shawdow possesion. Hidan is kage level that feat and beating the two tails proved it. He just got a little cocky with Shikamura and didn't realise he was a threat until it was too late.

IN MY CONCLUSION THEY ARE ALL KAGE LEVEL OR ABOVE


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 8, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> If a person can beat one of the kages even if they have a unique advantage, i think that person deserves to be called Kage level.
> 
> *Kisame/Deidara i believe can beat all of the current kages besides Onoki, and can beat pretty much beat everybody that i consider a Elite Jounin.*
> So for me Kisame/Deidara are kage level, its just that simple.



Lol, no they cant

Neither can beat A, and Gaara gives them a good fight as well

Also, the reason I consider Deidara and Kisame Elite Jonin is because they have shown to be equal or around that level of power with people in that group

For example, I consider Gai an Elite Jounin and he was able to fight on equal footing with Kisame on some occasions and even beat him with Gates

Gaara was also able to wound Deidara and fight on par with him
If he didn't have to protect the village
Maybe that fight goes differently

And Kakashi could've killed or defeated Deidara if his aim with Kamui was right

So I consider Deidara/Kisame/Gai/Kakashi/Gaara around the same level of power

Some Akatsuki members are just Elite Jonin level with haxxed abilities



shintebukuro said:


> He never fought them all at the same time by himself. Really, there's nothing substantial there.



It took the combined efforts of Kakashi, Yamato, Naruto, Chouji, Ino and PIS/CIS to take down Kakuzu



> Kisame noticing he was in a genjutsu was not him getting one-shotted. Asuma and Yamato couldn't come close to doing such a thing.
> 
> Guy needed 7 gates to beat Kisame w/out Samehada, and he was basically Kisame's counter.



Kisame couldn't escape from Kurenai genjutsu
He couldn't do anything except rely on Itachi to break him out

Asuma was jobbing Kisame when he brought out that wind chakra blade

He couldve just sliced his head off like this

Samehada wouldn't have made a difference in that fight as it needs chakra to regenerate
And Gai isn't Kisame's perfect counter 
He beat him fair and square



> That's part 1 stuff. We watched a swordless Kisame defend well against 6 gated Guy's Asakujaku.



And get owned seconds later 

Never mind Gai didn't even try to blitz as soon as he saw him



> I agree, but Kakashi seemed to imply that the usage of Kamui would have made a difference somehow.



Only to save his ass from getting killed by an elemental blast




> Sasuke needed CSL2 and an elemental advantage to beat Deidara.



Lol, he pretty much owned Deidara that whole fight

Blocked his initial attack(summons), Nearly blitzed him(shunshin), disarmed his C1(Raiton) almost sliced his head off(speed again), dogded many C2 mines and guided bombs(speed,CS2, raiton), landed a hit on airborne Deidara(Eiso, CS2), Avoided/Defused C4(Sharingan,Raiton, CS2) and escaped C0(space-time ninjutsu)

Deidara couldn't really hurt the guy
All Sasuke lost was a CS2 wing 

Regardless of an elemental advantage, Deidara was clearly outmatched by a stronger opponent



> In one scenario, Kakashi used Kamui, and in the other, he did not. Also, Kakashi brought himself to chakra exhaustion trying to attack and defend against Deidara...while Deidara had almost no clay and missing arms the whole time



What difference does it make??

If he had it he could've used it

It doesn't take away from the fact that Kakuzu pretty much owned him apart from a surprise Raikiri

A tired, exhausted Kakashi from traveling 3 straight days and fighting fake Itachi and chasing down Deidara and using MS jutsu while trying to protect Naruto

managed to almost defeat/kill Deidara with a missing arm and low clay

They wer both far from fighting at full strength

Meanwhile, a fresh Kakashi w/ a better Kamui and full chakra couldn't even manage to take out a heart w/o a sneak attack 

And got owned w/ support and almost killed by Kakuzu twice

It's pretty clear who's superior



> I think you need to re-read some stuff if you think he was ever remotely matched up against Yamato. Yamato attacked him and Kakuzu dodged. That's it.



It was still Kakashi/Yamato/Naruto/chunnin vs Kakuzu



EDIT: @Empathy Please explain whats wrong with my post since you negged me


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Not likely. Sasori is a Puppet user, while Sandaime uses Satetsu. Th Iron Sand was said to clog Puppets rendering them useless. Sasori also used this trick with his Sandaime Puppet
> 
> If anything Sasori was in a disadvantage being a Puppet User going against Satetsu
> 
> ...


So tell me, with Sasori's given feats without Sandaime Kazekage, how exactly did he manage to defeat the 3rd Kazekage who in your opinion is stronger than the Gold user, Gaara's dad. 


hitokugutsu said:


> Hidan himself admitted to be the slowest Akatsuki. He wont be able to scratch higher level fighters. Kakashi was holding his own in a taijutsu skirmish against Hidan while being chased by Kakuzu's hearts
> 
> Hidan just aint gonna catch higher level opponents


Agreed on that.


hitokugutsu said:


> Also what so hard to give Sasori his props?
> - Dude has haxxx jutsy with his OHKO posion scratch
> - Genius of the Sand (full 5/5 intelligence marks in DB)
> - Deidara admitted inferiority
> ...


This is the problem, Sasori only has hype. By feats Deidara > Sasori. By feats 3rd Kazekage > Sasori. His hype taking out a country is meaningless.

With all these jutsu's you mention still places him on Gai's level who could one hit KO him with Morning Peacock or Afternoon Tiger when his up against any of Sasori's jutsu after all you don't have to be a genius to know puppet users uses poison.


hitokugutsu said:


> Of course you can make up some kinda battle scenario where Sasori would lose to Deidara or Kakuzu or something, but in general he is more well-rounded and superior then most his Akatsuki peers.


He starts of in Hiruko, a huge puppet which makes him slower than usual. He has not captured a single bijuu. If he went to capture Gaara he would have got owned. Comparing his feats to other Kage level shinobi, he stands no chance against any of them.


hitokugutsu said:


> Not to mention the story parralells Sasori had with Orochimaru. Sasori was basically Suna's version of Orochimaru
> - quest for immortaility
> - Lost parents at young age, which was a trigger for both in their behavior change
> - both hailed as genius at their respective villages
> ...


I see a parallel between these two but that in no way places him on Orochimaru's level. Whose Edo Tensei is considered by the manga as the strongest jutsu.


Empathy said:


> I have to disagree. Especially on the Sasori assessment. Not only did Sasori defeat the Sandaime Kazekage, said to be the most powerful of all the Kazekages. And if anyone was the 'perfect counter' it was the Sandaime Kazekage. His _Satetsu_ clogs puppets, rendering them useless. Not to mention his Jiton, attracting Sasori's metallic weapons. Not only did he defeat him. He took his power and made it more lethal. He controls all of the Sandaime Kazekage's power(drenched in poison) added to his own power. So even by default Sasori is > Greatest Kazekage in history. So already by default Sasori should be Kage lvl. Not to mention his own Jutsu. The merits of his _Aka Higi: Hyakki no Soen_ allowed him to defeat an entire country.
> 
> Granted this country probably wasn't very strong, with an adequate military force, still I don't know many Elite Jounin that can solo countries. All this added to a when a single scratch from him means certain death. Also, I consider Hidan on the high end of Elite Jounin level. I consider him on par with some people like Darui for example. Gai on the other hand I'd call more of Low Kage lvl. He's considered Hatake Kakashi's equal, who was almost named Hokage twice, and has been mentioned on more than one occasion to make an excellent decision as Rokudaime Hokage. Hidan is especially more lethal without knowledge of his abilities. Then he's able to acquire blood and preform his ritual much easier. Especially when they think they've won, when they strike a fatal wound, and then he takes them off guard, and a single drop of blood is game over.


Manga > Databook
Feats > Databook

By feats Sasori cannot defeat any of the Kage level shinobi. There is a reason why he hasn't captured a single bijuu. If he fought against Gaara, then by feats Gaara > Sasori.

Sasori only has hype not backed up by anything.


Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> How so?  We already saw in his fight with Chiyo that iron sand is a great counter to puppets.


I was just stating some "What If" scenario's since we never seen their fight.


Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> First, Sasori implies it was a long difficult fight, and the databook also supports this:


When does he implies this in the manga.


Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> _Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the strongest would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his* painstakingly defeated opponent*, Sasori could feel the happiness enveloping his heart._


Again, like I said beating a Kage does not put you on a Kage tier. By the given Puppet Kazekage feats, Sasori stands no chance against 3rd Kazekage.


Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Gai wouldn't be able to kill Hidan anyhow.  He would use gates, slap him around for a few minutes, then Hidan just cuts him afterwards.


No one would be able to kill Hidan. But many would be able to defeat him. Gai couldn't even kill Kisame with his one hit KO or seventh gate punch.


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## Dolohov27 (Jul 8, 2011)

Lol @ people saying Hidan not Kage level, he made Asuma look like a fodder,and is the true Immortal (Madara Not counting) an would have owned Shikamaru weak boring ass if Kishi didn't like wanking to his favorite characters. Hidan is the only ninja who can talk with his head cut off that alone makes stronger than 98 percent of the Narutoverse.


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## Setas1999 (Jul 8, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Lol @ people saying Hidan not Kage level, he made Asuma look like a fodder,and is the true Immortal (Madara Not counting) an would have owned Shikamaru weak boring ass if Kishi didn't like wanking to his favorite characters. Hidan is the only ninja who can talk with his head cut off that alone makes stronger than 98 percent of the Narutoverse.



no.anyway this manga has like 3 or 4 ninjas so...
other than that I will not argue with your opinion.


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## Deshi Basara (Jul 8, 2011)

vagnard said:
			
		

> I could agree with this if she just lost against Jiraiya but SHE WAS UTTERLY PWNED BY JIRAIYA. There is no excuse.



Actually there is.He was her sensei and knew her weaknesses  You didn't see Tobi wtfpwn her in two seconds, now did ya?In fact his stupid ass almost got killed 




> Her plan involved to die with Madara, not to fight Madara at all.
> 
> If I go to battle Tyson with an explosive belt means I'm on his level?. No in fact I realize I'm gonna get raped so my only chance is take him out with a suicide attack.



Konan knew Tobi needed her alive.What's wrong with taking advantage of that fact?




> Besides the very fact Konan started with a Kamikaze attack shows she wasn't even close to Pre-Rinnegan Madara's level. Just like how Deidara used his C0 when he realized he couldn't beat Sasuke.



Um, what? *Take your own advise and read the fight.*Tobi was fucked if it wasn't for Izanagi and Konan waas still alive after her last attack that should've taken Tobi out.No knowledge is what saved his sorry ass, just like with Itachi's Amaterasu.


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## T-Bag (Jul 8, 2011)

畜生道 said:


> Actually there is.He was her sensei and knew her weaknesses  You didn't see Tobi wtfpwn her in two seconds now did ya?In fact his stupid ass almost got killed
> 
> 
> 
> ...



knowledge is power


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## americaoffline (Jul 8, 2011)

arednad said:


> Itachi was stronger than any kage.



Shodai wants a word with you.


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## The Wired (Jul 8, 2011)

This is a waste of time.. their are only one or two of them that are not easily on that level..


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 8, 2011)

americaoffline said:


> Shodai wants a word with you.



Shodai has no genjutsu defense. His Blackness genjutsu can be reflected back at him. His no match for Itachi.


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## Dolohov27 (Jul 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> *Shodai has no genjutsu defense*. His Blackness genjutsu can be reflected back at him. His no match for Itachi.


 Link please where it say this in the manga if you cant provide one kindly stop making shit up.


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## The Wired (Jul 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Shodai has no genjutsu defense. His Blackness genjutsu can be reflected back at him. His no match for Itachi.



surely that emoticon hints at your sarcasm.. I'll just simply move along as though it does..


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## Deleted member 175252 (Jul 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Not likely. Sasori is a Puppet user, while Sandaime uses Satetsu. Th Iron Sand was said to clog Puppets rendering them useless. Sasori also used this trick with his Sandaime Puppet
> 
> If anything Sasori was in a disadvantage being a Puppet User going against Satetsu
> 
> ...



practically this.

sasori > sandaime kazekage

the simple fact that your saying that sasori isnt evena  kage tier means he is incredibly underrated.


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## KingBoo (Jul 8, 2011)

lol most akatsuki members are kage level or beyond.
beyond
madara, nagato, itachi
kage
orochi, kisame, sasori, deidara, kakuzu
elite
konan, zetsu (so far)
horrible
hidan, and the guy kakuzu killed


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## Empathy (Jul 8, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Lol, no they cant



Yes, they can. You just admitted they can take Gaara. Do you think they can't defeat Mei or Tsunade?



> Neither can beat A, and Gaara gives them a good fight as well



They'd both beat A. The only chance A has to defeat Deidara is blitzing him before he can go airborne. By default, if they fought the distance would be 50 meters. A has never blitzed from such a distance. Both would start in base, and A would first have to activate his _Raiton no Yoroi_. Deidara should be able to reach into his pouch and grabs some clay to go airborne before A can cross 50 meters starting in base. He's can tank or dodge _C1_ and _C2_. _C4_ would be negated by A's _Raiton no Yoroi_. Leaving _C3_ which he can't tank or dodge. He's killed by that. With Kisame he just eats all of his Bijuu level Chakra. What use is A without his shroud, against Kisame? He'd finish him.



> Also, the reason I consider Deidara and Kisame Elite Jonin is because they have shown to be equal or around that level of power with people in that group



Bijuu level Chakra Reserves, one-shotting Bijuu, both defeating Kage lvl nin, flipping an Island, one-shot villages. Tell me what Elite Jounin can do this.  They don't fit in this group.



> For example, I consider Gai an Elite Jounin and he was able to fight on equal footing with Kisame on some occasions and even beat him with Gates



Why is Gai Elite Jounin level? He's considered Kakashi's equal, who was almost named Hokage twice, and has been mentioned on several occasions to make an excellent decision as Rokudaime Hokage. And Gai defeated a swordsmen without a sword. That's like defeating a boxer without any arms. Gai was also Kisame's worst possible matchup, not relying on Chakra.



> Gaara was also able to wound Deidara and fight on par with him
> If he didn't have to protect the village
> Maybe that fight goes differently



What would it have changed? Deidara beat him using exclusively _C1_. Not counting the _C3_ he dropped on some Gaara's access sand. He couldn't catch him, and Deidara was outclassing him, even while at a severe disadvantage. Deidara has to infiltrate and attack the village. He didn't bring adequate clay with him. And Gaara had the entire location as his weapon, and he still defeated him with only _C1_ offensively. What would it have changed? If Deidara were able to kill him, he would have been able to use something stronger than _C1_ offensively.



> And Kakashi could've killed or defeated Deidara if his aim with Kamui was right



What's your point. 95% of nin would be killed by _Kamui_. Deidara has just fought a village, and captured their Kage. He was almost out of clay(having not brought much with him in the first place) and only had one arm. Leaving him only able to use _C1_. How being hit by _Kamui_ a testament to weakness? Most of the Narutoverse would be killed by it.



> So I consider Deidara/Kisame/Gai/Kakashi/Gaara around the same level of power



One of them is actually a Kage(who Deidara defeated). Another has almost been named Kage twice, and another is considered his equal. So all of them are Kage lvl. Even then I consider Deidara and Kisame a step above those guys, by virtue of having superior feats.



> Some Akatsuki members are just Elite Jonin level with haxxed abilities



That's a Kage.



> It took the combined efforts of Kakashi, Yamato, Naruto, Chouji, Ino and PIS/CIS to take down Kakuzu



What's your point? Both Deidara or Kisame can probably take Kakuzu with much difficulty.



> Kisame couldn't escape from Kurenai genjutsu
> He couldn't do anything except rely on Itachi to break him out
> 
> Asuma was jobbing Kisame when he brought out that wind chakra blade
> ...



Yeah, I'm sure both Asuma and Kurenai would rape the shit out of Kisame.



> And Gai isn't Kisame's perfect counter



Yes he was.



> He beat him fair and square



No he didn't Kisame didn't have a sword and was already pretty injured from his fight with the Hachibi Jinchuuriki.



> And get owned seconds later
> 
> Never mind Gai didn't even try to blitz as soon as he saw him



What?



> Lol, he pretty much owned Deidara that whole fight



No he didnt.



> Blocked his initial attack(summons), Nearly blitzed him(shunshin), disarmed his C1(Raiton) almost sliced his head off(speed again), dogded many C2 mines and guided bombs(speed,CS2, raiton), landed a hit on airborne Deidara(Eiso, CS2), Avoided/Defused C4(Sharingan,Raiton, CS2) and escaped C0(space-time ninjutsu)



Sasuke only won due to having Sharigan and Raiton affinity, and massive amounts of plot. 



> Deidara couldn't really hurt the guy
> All Sasuke lost was a CS2 wing



What the fuck are you talking about? He was almost killed.



> Regardless of an elemental advantage, Deidara was clearly outmatched by a stronger opponent



Yeah, he totally could have survived _C4_ without Sharingan and Raiton Affinity. I'm sure he was just showing off, he didn't really need to diffuse it.



> What difference does it make??
> 
> If he had it he could've used it
> 
> ...



Regarding Deidara vs Kakuzu; I see little Kakuzu could do against _C3_ or _C4_. They'd both kill him and destroy all of his hearts simultaneously. If Deidara can evade Sungakure's entire desert, he can evade Kakuzu's Ninjutsu.


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## Raiden (Jul 8, 2011)

Excellent post, Empathy.


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 8, 2011)

Empathy said:


> They'd both beat A. The only chance A has to defeat Deidara is blitzing him before he can go airborne. By default, if they fought the distance would be 50 meters. A has never blitzed from such a distance. Both would start in base, and A would first have to activate his _Raiton no Yoroi_. Deidara should be able to reach into his pouch and grabs some clay to go airborne before A can cross 50 meters starting in base. He's can tank or dodge _C1_ and _C2_. _C4_ would be negated by A's _Raiton no Yoroi_. Leaving _C3_ which he can't tank or dodge. He's killed by that. With Kisame he just eats all of his Bijuu level Chakra. What use is A without his shroud, against Kisame? He'd finish him.



This makes me wonder..Going by this, wouldn't A lose to any airborne ninja? Sai has just as much flying ability as Deidara, is quite quick with a paint brush, and armed with explosive tags...well he's like a walmart brand Deidara. Isn't that the definition of a "bad matchup"?


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## Hasan (Jul 8, 2011)

Kages are essentially Elite Jonin with leadership qualities.

*Kakuzu:* This man was sent to kill Hashirama. Agreed that Hashirama beat Kakuzu but the point is higher ups thought Kakuzu was the perfect man for the job.

*Kisame:* Perfect man to hunt down the "Perfect Jinchurikki". No one else could do it. Though I have to disagree that if Kisame was fresh and had Samehada, he would have beaten Gai. Gai happens to the perfect counter to Kisame like someone said "Kryptonite". Kisame got matched up with a guy who doesn't use Chakra.

*Sasori:* Destroyed a country and defeated Sandaime Kazekage. Chiyo and Sakura beat Sasori is a lame excuse. Chiyo happens to be Sasori's grandma and knows Sasori best and his abilities.

*Hidan:* I can't say anything on him. He's a pretty good fighter but ritual takes time. This is too much time for the likes of Kakashi who'd finish him during his ritual.



> Just for the fun, Madara should have sent every member except Hidan to villages to fight the Kages. They'd fight them and get their blood, even if a little. It's not like Kages won't be injured. Hidan does the ritual in the Hideout and everyone dies.



*Diedara:* Captured Gaara and Sanbi. It just happens that he, like Oro, was weak against the sharingan (developed a counter, nevertheless) doesn't mean he's weak at all. People seemed honoured to fight the "Sharingan Kakashi" whose Dojutsu, Diedara noted to be on par with Itachi's. Still a great ninja who deserves his credit.

*Konan:* She's been around for years and knows Madara's weakness. Immense prep time. With prep time any ninja can beat his opponent. If Kakashi knew that Madara can be intangible for only 5 mins, Madara would be dead now. But this is Konan. She was trained by Jiraiya so definitely strong. But I doubt she'll be able to take on the Kages except for Gaara and possibly Mei.



> Look at Kakashi, he managed to figure out Deva Path's ability and was a split-second away from destroying Deva Path. A feat, in my opinion, no one else has put. He's the only person to get this close in minimal amount of time and on the battlefield.



Everyone is strong. Kisame was best suited to hunt down Hachibi and Diedara was sent to capture Gaara. They all have different fighting styles and are best for different types of opponents.



> e.g Sasuke fought Raikage head-on. Had it been Itachi, he would have defeated Raikage. I'm not saying it's certain but given Itachi's fighting style he'd most likely take him out. After all, he always observe his opponent well and employ the best possible solution to end the fight quickly.



They'll definitely be Kage of their respective villages if they were still in their villages. Oro wouldn't dare enter Konoha if Itachi was there. Konan led Amegakure after Nagato's death.


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## joshhookway (Jul 8, 2011)

Deidara raped a Kage while at a disadvantage
Tsunade couldn't beat any of the Akutsuki Members


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## Setas1999 (Jul 8, 2011)

joshhookway said:


> Deidara *raped* a Kage while at a disadvantage
> Tsunade couldn't beat any of the Akutsuki Members



lol what?He won.but only becouse Gaara protected suna.

She may be able to rip off hidans head or hands.that coul count as victory


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## Eternal Pein (Jul 8, 2011)

It's pretty obvious that the only Akatsuki that we can say doesn't have Kage level power is Hidan.


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## joshhookway (Jul 8, 2011)

Setas1999 said:


> lol what?He won.but only becouse Gaara protected suna.
> 
> She may be able to rip off hidans head or hands.that coul count as victory



gaara had the advantage, limitless amounts of Sand, and Deidara had little clay. If Gaara only had his sand Gourd, he could only attack or defend, not both

Tsunade would get cursed by hidan


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## Setas1999 (Jul 8, 2011)

joshhookway said:


> gaara had the advantage, limitless amounts of Sand, and Deidara had little clay. If Gaara only had his sand Gourd, he could only attack or defend, not both
> 
> Tsunade would get cursed by hidan



Gaara would had adventage if they in just rrandom desert but not in Suna.most likely his offense would had been way stronger too.becouse you know he wouldn't have to wory that waves of his sand will kill people of suna.deidara got shot on Gaara only becouse he acted as Kage and saves suna from nuke.had Gaara only wanted to kill suna would be no more but didara would be dead.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jul 8, 2011)

Setas1999 said:


> Gaara would had adventage if they in just rrandom desert but not in Suna.most likely his offense would had been way stronger too.becouse you know he wouldn't have to wory that waves of his sand will kill people of suna.deidara got shot on Gaara only becouse he acted as Kage and saves suna from nuke.had Gaara only wanted to kill suna would be no more but didara would be dead.



excuses, excuses, excuses.


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## Raidoton (Jul 8, 2011)

KAKASHI10 said:


> excuses, excuses, excuses.


You know it's true! But Deidara is still Kage level!


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## principito (Jul 8, 2011)

I dont know why this is still going...

Take the weakest kage.... Tsunade... throw that into an equation against any akatsuki..... and they who can or can't beat her.

I think any Akatsuki could beat her... yes... even Hidan. And she's kage lvl


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## Zen-aku (Jul 8, 2011)

principito said:


> I think any Akatsuki could beat her... yes... even Hidan. And she's kage lvl



Any Akatsuki could easily beat tsunade, i dont see how hidan could thogh...


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 8, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> So tell me, with Sasori's given feats without Sandaime Kazekage, how exactly did he manage to defeat the 3rd Kazekage who in your opinion is stronger than the Gold user, Gaara's dad.



Thats the beauty of it. We will never know 
But like you I can also make up a random battle scenario how this battle could have gone:
Sasori is well aware of Sandaime's prowess (hence the reason he wants him for his collection). So he goes all out from the beginning. 100 Puppets vs Satetsu. Of course Iron Sand has the advantage against Puppets which would mean Sasori would be losing Puppets one by one. Also Sandaime based his fighting style on Shukaku Jin, so he most likely used attacks similairly like Gaara. I can easily imagine a scenario where Sasori _simply outsmarts_ his opponents after wearing him down. Sasori knows his puppets wont last against Satetsu but their goal is to wear Sandaime down. Sasori has a beasty stamina (5/5!!!) so this scenario isnt unthinkeble. Also he has the 5/5 for Intelligence in DB (only characters who have these are the geniuses: Itachi/Shika/Sarutobi/Orochimaru/Kakashi etc) to lure him into a trap or something along those lines that involves a simple scratch or posion gas. Remember Sasori only needs one scratch for the victory. 

As for Sasori being a sitting duck. This is just false. He has shown indeed that when using 100 Puppets he fight from a distance, but he also shown to be able to body switch immedeately to antoher Puppets. In the manga this feat seemed more like Sasori summining his core into another body then actual speed. Also one again DB gives Sasori the speed tier 4.5/5. That is the same tier that Sasuke was speedblitzing Deidara. Doesnt matter if Sasori hasnt show this on screen: we know he has it. Period. You make the assumtion that Sasori is slow due to Hiruko, but nothing has ever seemed to indicate that. Being big and hulky hardly means you're slow (look at Raikage even without Raitin Armor). As for Sakura hitting Hiruko: Sasori was surprised she dodges the attacsk AND Chiyo stopped Hiruko's movenments with chakra strings. So to sum up Sasori is fast. 

See how I just made up a random battle scenario 
Thats why Factual hype > in battle display

Concluding Sasori vs Sandaime:

100 Puppets onslaught ninjutsu combined with massive stamina (5/5) + some kinda trap or deception (intelligence 5/5!)  + Sasori not being a sitting duck like most puppeteers (speed 4.5/5) and his OHKO poison scratch/gas its more then plausible that Sasori bested Sandaime. In fact manga also agrees with me 



> This is the problem, Sasori only has hype. By feats Deidara > Sasori. By feats 3rd Kazekage > Sasori. His hype taking out a country is meaningless.



Hype is more worth then battle feats shown during one battle. We only know Shodai Hokage has Mokuton, yet appereantly he was able to whoop prime Madara who had EMS. I'm pretty sure most of us are still wondering what Hashirama exactly did. Same can be said for Sasori and Sandaime. 

Another example of hype is Sandaime Hokage. The most powerfull Hokage of them all, and by definition this means Yondaime and Shodai. Yet we have seen nothin in his arsenal that would make him hold his own against Yondaime's S/T ninjutsus. But the fact remain that Prime Sandaime most powerfull Hokage. We just have to assume he has more then he has shown. Hence my reasoning that hype (of course factual hype) means more then an in-battle display of ninjutsu.



> ]With all these jutsu's you mention still places him on Gai's level who could one hit KO him with Morning Peacock or Afternoon Tiger when his up against any of Sasori's jutsu after all you don't have to be a genius to know puppet users uses poison.



Sasori is smarter then Gai and he would have simply played a deception on him. Or an instant body switch or something.
As for Gai in general, his Gates are overrated. He cant hold on them for long. Anyone smarter could play Gai for a fool. I can easily see Kakashi setting up a Raiton Bunshin for Gai to strike etc.



> He starts of in Hiruko, a huge puppet which makes him slower than usual. He has not captured a single bijuu. If he went to capture Gaara he would have got owned. Comparing his feats to other Kage level shinobi, he stands no chance against any of them




He didnt know his target back then. Based on Tobi replacing him it would have been Sanbi. And neither Itachi & Pain captured a Biju are they Elite Jonin level also?

As for him being slower in Hiruko....thats your assumption. I already described above that Sasori is fast, backed up by DB. And why would being huge and bulky make you slower? Raikage seems to e doing fine
If Gold Dust > Gaara the Satetsu would have done the same
Not to mention outsmarting Gaara like Deidara did can also be done.

Also early part II when Deidara went to capture him, there wasnt even a single indication that Sasori wouldnt be able to capture. Gaara was simply not his assigned Biju



> ]*By feats Sasori cannot defeat any of the Kage level shinobi*. There is a reason why he hasn't captured a single bijuu. If he fought against Gaara, then by feats Gaara > Sasori.



I'm sorry you feel this way

As for the Biju part. Already explained that. 



> Sasori only has hype not backed up by anything.
> I was just stating some "What If" scenario's since we never seen their fight.
> When does he implies this in the manga.
> Again, like I said beating a Kage does not put you on a Kage tier. By the given Puppet Kazekage feats, Sasori stands no chance against 3rd Kazekage.
> No one would be able to kill Hidan. But many would be able to defeat him. Gai couldn't even kill Kisame with his one hit KO or seventh gate punch.



Factual manga hype > Your and anyones battlescenarios. Even Kishimotos battle againsy Chiyo and Sakura was plot driven then what could/should have been



Kakashi Hatake said:


> Shodai has no genjutsu defense. His Blackness genjutsu can be reflected back at him. His no match for Itachi.



Hmmm. Yess of course, this seems more then logical

First bashing the shit out of Sasori that he is not backing up his hype and now Shodai has no genjutsu defense 



joshhookway said:


> gaara had the advantage, limitless amounts of Sand, and Deidara had little clay. If Gaara only had his sand Gourd, he could only attack or defend, not both
> 
> *Tsunade would get cursed by hidan*



Hidan is slow. He cant touch higher level opponents. 
Also before declaring Tsunade the weakest Hokage, wait for her to acyuallt show stuff....



principito said:


> I dont know why this is still going...
> 
> Take the weakest kage.... Tsunade... throw that into an equation against any akatsuki..... and they who can or can't beat her.
> 
> I think any Akatsuki could beat her... yes... even Hidan. And she's kage lvl





Yess judging a character who didnt had a proper battle or gone all out versus Akatsuki who have shown their stuff

Tsunade is Hokage and a Sannin. She is at least on par with her team-mates. Just wait for her to go all out before bashing her


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## Zen-aku (Jul 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Yess judging a character who didnt had a proper battle or gone all out versus Akatsuki who have shown their stuff
> 
> Tsunade is Hokage and a Sannin. She is at least on par with her team-mates. Just wait for her to go all out before bashing her



we have seen every thing she can do, she is the Sakura of the Sannin Deal with it


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## hitokugutsu (Jul 8, 2011)

Zen-aku said:


> we have seen every thing she can do, she is the Sakura of the Sannin Deal with it





Is this Internet sarcasm, cuz I cant really tell

Anyhow:
-first batte part I vs Orochimaru. She had her blood-fear and couldnt even properly fight. Also been out of commission for years she was rusty. Not to mention she took a blade in the chest for Naruto
And AFTER all this she started to fight seriously

- Part II. She pretty much wasted all her chakra to protect the village against SCT from Pain


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## Zen-aku (Jul 8, 2011)

hitokugutsu said:


> Is this Internet sarcasm, cuz I cant really tell
> 
> Anyhow:
> -first batte part I vs Orochimaru. She had her blood-fear and couldnt even properly fight. Also been out of commission for years she was rusty. Not to mention she took a blade in the chest for Naruto*
> And AFTER all this she started to fight seriously*



yes thats where we saw all that she can do


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## Sadgoob (Jul 8, 2011)

Deidara

If walking in to one of the Five great countries and capturing their Kage while the entire country is powerless, and while the sand-manipulating Kazekage is in the desert doesn't make you Kage level...

Kisame

Kisame captured a perfect jinchūriki that out-muscled the commanding Kage of the free world, and then Kisame complained about how it wasn't as tough as he expected. Seems pretty Kage-level to me.

Sasori

Sasori defeated the Sandaime Kazekage, who was considered stronger than any of his predecessors, in his own village without raising any alarms. He then added the Kazekage's power to his own, and added poison.

Kakuzu

Kakuzu's tentacles are so fast that even Kakashi and his Sharingan couldn't dodge. He can cover himself in nearly impenetrable skin. He has 5 lives, and mastered four (possible five) elements. He fought Hashirama and lived.

Konan

Konan is a logia, and with preparation, she pushed Madara even further than Minato did, forcing him to rely on Izanagi. She would, in my opinion, defeat the Godaime or Sandaime Hokages.

Hidan

Asuma is considered an elite Jōnin, and he realized he stood no chance against Hidan. Hidan easily scratched Asuma, whom possessed a 4.5 in taijutsu and speed, so not many in Narutoverse can stand against a true immortal.

*Conclusion:* They're all Kage levels, except for perhaps Hidan.


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## Ejenku (Jul 8, 2011)

The ones not Kage lvl are Hidan and Zetsu. With prep Konan is kage lvl looking at how far she pushed Madara. She did better than Minato did. Kisame,Deidara,Kakuzu and Sasori are mid kage lvl.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 8, 2011)

vagnard said:
			
		

> She had the biggest amount of prep time in the whole manga and she still failed.



Yeah, she failed against Madara's trump card. Minato himself said you would need extraordinary strength to fight and defeat Madara.



> I could agree with this if she just lost against Jiraiya but SHE WAS UTTERLY PWNED BY JIRAIYA. There is no excuse.



Her performance against Madara was not consistent with a fighter who would get beat in seconds by base Jiraiya. Thus, we revise our assessment, and rationalize her earlier performance.



> Read that battle again. When Konan used her Kami no Shisha no Jutsu Madara could stop his teleporting/phasing during the process to became intangible in an instant when he was falling into the sea of paper. So he can shift to his intangible mode when he his using his S/T without any problem.



Would Madara be able to de-activate absorbing Konan and turn intangible when she's halfway into his eye dimension?



> Her plan involved to die with Madara, not to fight Madara at all.



I agree that she's not as strong as Madara. I'm just saying that to cause Madara any trouble at all, regardless of prep and intel, you have to be really strong. Kakuzu couldn't do it, for example. 



			
				Mangekyou Byakugan said:
			
		

> It took the combined efforts of Kakashi, Yamato, Naruto, Chouji, Ino and PIS/CIS to take down Kakuzu



Chouji and Ino only fought when Kakuzu was with Hidan. 

Kakuzu basically just fought Kakashi 1 on 1, and then Naruto. The others barely did anything. Mentioning their names is pointless.



> Kisame couldn't escape from Kurenai genjutsu
> He couldn't do anything except rely on Itachi to break him out



That's a picture of Kisame looking down. That's not him getting one shotted.

He's seriously just looking down at his feet, recognizing what's going on.



> Asuma was jobbing Kisame when he brought out that wind chakra blade
> 
> He couldve just sliced his head off like this



Yeah, Kisame was underestimating him and not even taking him seriously. And that was part 1.


> Samehada wouldn't have made a difference in that fight as it needs chakra to regenerate
> And Gai isn't Kisame's perfect counter
> He beat him fair and square



Kisame's fighting style revolves around absorbing chakra. Guy is the only ninja who doesn't use chakra to power his jutsu. I don't see how you could say he's not Kisame's counter.

It was almost like an elemental counter.


> And get owned seconds later
> 
> Never mind Gai didn't even try to blitz as soon as he saw him



Who gives a fuck if he got owned seconds later? What does that have to do with my point? If he can defend against Asakujaku, then he wouldn't get injuries from part 1 Kakashi clone. 



> Blocked his initial attack(summons), Nearly blitzed him(shunshin), disarmed his C1(Raiton) almost sliced his head off(speed again), dogded many C2 mines and guided bombs(speed,CS2, raiton), landed a hit on airborne Deidara(Eiso, CS2), Avoided/Defused C4(Sharingan,Raiton, CS2) and escaped C0(space-time ninjutsu)
> 
> Deidara couldn't really hurt the guy
> All Sasuke lost was a CS2 wing
> ...



You didn't even address my point that *Sasuke needed CSL2 and an elemental advantage to beat Deidara.*

How is you listing Sasuke dodging Deidara's warmup C1 attacks some kind of feat as to how bad Deidara got owned? 

Sasuke needed CSL2 to beat C2, and he needed CSL2 and the elemental advantage to beat C4. That's what's important, that's my point.

I don't care how many weak bombs he avoided, or the times he _almost_ blitzed Deidara at the beginning of the fight. How do they affect my point?



> What difference does it make??
> 
> If he had it he could've used it



He used Kamui against a vastly weakened Deidara, and he didn't against Kakuzu. That's a pretty big difference.

He couldn't use it against Kakuzu because he had already spent a lot of chakra fighting until that point. He needed to use 2 Raikiri's to save Chouji and Shikamaru. At that point, Kamui could only be used as a last resort.

Against Deidara, he was at full chakra and Deidara wasn't even fighting him.



> A tired, exhausted Kakashi from traveling 3 straight days and fighting fake Itachi and chasing down Deidara and using MS jutsu while trying to protect Naruto



He was not tired and exhausted, and he barely spent any chakra fighting Shouten Itachi. 

You're grasping at straws here.



> They wer both far from fighting at full strength



The funny thing is, Deidara wasn't even fighting Kakashi, but running away.



> Meanwhile, a fresh Kakashi w/ a better Kamui and full chakra couldn't even manage to take out a heart w/o a sneak attack
> 
> And got owned w/ support and almost killed by Kakuzu twice



He didn't have support, and he didn't have full chakra. Are you just trolling?



> It's pretty clear who's superior



I agree. Kakuzu is weaker than/maybe equal to base Naruto, and Deidara would have killed CSL2 Sasuke if not for his elemental advantage.



> It was still Kakashi/Yamato/Naruto/chunnin vs Kakuzu



It's a desperate claim when you're including people who stood around and did basically nothing. And I don't know how you could miss the entire point that Naruto was fighting Kakuzu on his own to prove himself. Yamato and Kakashi jumped in to reset the fight when Naruto goofed up, even though he had it in the bag.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 9, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Yes, they can. You just admitted they can take Gaara. Do you think they can't defeat Mei or Tsunade?



No, they can't
Onoki and A could beat them both

They'd both have their hands full with Gaara
It wouldn't be an easy fight whether they win or lose

They definitely beat Tsunade and Mei
Although I doubt that's all they have to show



> They'd both beat A. The only chance A has to defeat Deidara is blitzing him before he can go airborne. By default, if they fought the distance would be 50 meters. A has never blitzed from such a distance. Both would start in base, and A would first have to activate his _Raiton no Yoroi_. Deidara should be able to reach into his pouch and grabs some clay to go airborne before A can cross 50 meters starting in base. He's can tank or dodge _C1_ and _C2_. _C4_ would be negated by A's _Raiton no Yoroi_. Leaving _C3_ which he can't tank or dodge. He's killed by that. With Kisame he just eats all of his Bijuu level Chakra. What use is A without his shroud, against Kisame? He'd finish him.



Sasuke covered a pretty good distance to get to Deidara in one shuishin
Deidara would not be able to escape V1/V2 Raikage at 50m
Maybe 100m

And we've seen what happens when Kisame goes against fast opponents
He couldn't even percieve RM Naruto

V2 Raikage is near that level of speed and even stronger
He'd Lariat Kisame before he'd know what hit him




> Bijuu level Chakra Reserves, one-shotting Bijuu, both defeating Kage lvl nin, flipping an Island, one-shot villages. *Tell me what Elite Jounin can do this. * They don't fit in this group.



That's why I said they're Elite Jonin with extremely haxxed abilities

Also, what Elite Jonins have access to Kinjutsu and the Strongest Shonobi 7 Gatana?

And since when does bijuu-level chakra qualify as a Kage Level
I guess Yugito Nii is Kage Level 

Also, I'd put Darui and Kitsuchi in the Elite Jonin category as well(although at the bottom)




> Why is Gai Elite Jounin level? He's considered Kakashi's equal, who was almost named Hokage twice, and has been mentioned on several occasions to make an excellent decision as Rokudaime Hokage. And Gai defeated a swordsmen without a sword. That's like defeating a boxer without any arms. Gai was also Kisame's worst possible matchup, not relying on Chakra.



Just being a Kage Candidate doesn't mean you are Kage Level

Suna was instable and needed to appoint a Kage to restore order
Gaara was the best choice at the time

Same with Kakashi

Guys like Jiriaya and Orochimaru are usually first choices for the Kage seat because they're Kage Level

Kakashi and Gaara were just afterthoughts



> What would it have changed? Deidara beat him using exclusively _C1_. Not counting the _C3_ he dropped on some Gaara's access sand. He couldn't catch him, and Deidara was outclassing him, even while at a severe disadvantage. Deidara has to infiltrate and attack the village. He didn't bring adequate clay with him. And Gaara had the entire location as his weapon, and he still defeated him with only _C1_ offensively. What would it have changed? If Deidara were able to kill him, he would have been able to use something stronger than _C1_ offensively.



Gaara had to protect the village from C3
That used up a lot of sand and chakra

If he didn't have to protect the village
There's no way Deidara hits him before getting killed

Deidara couldn't even come close to even touching Gaara the whole fight
He lost an arm and was almost killed by a Desert Burial

C3 was blocked by sand 
And that's his strongest bomb

Nothing Deidara has can get through Gaara's sand defense(except C0) if C3 can't



> What's your point. 95% of nin would be killed by _Kamui_. Deidara has just fought a village, and captured their Kage. He was almost out of clay(having not brought much with him in the first place) and only had one arm. Leaving him only able to use _C1_. How being hit by _Kamui_ a testament to weakness? Most of the Narutoverse would be killed by it.



I wasn't calling him weak at all

In fact, him avoiding Kamui shows that he's pretty formidable

But you're trying to say Deidara>>Kakashi by a significant margin 
And that's not how the manga interprets it




> One of them is actually a Kage(who Deidara defeated). Another has almost been named Kage twice, and another is considered his equal. So all of them are Kage lvl. Even then I consider Deidara and Kisame a step above those guys, by virtue of having superior feats.



Being named as a Kage means nothing

Like I said before, the villages needed to restore order and appoint Kages immediately

It had more to do with politics and running a country than actual power
Otherwise Danzo wouldn't have been appointed

Kakashi and Gaara were the best options at the time

Gaara was allowed to be Kage so they could monitor Shakaku anyways

And to be honest, I think Deidara and Kisame were meant to be on the same level as Gai/Kakashi/Gaara

From what they've shown in there fights against each other




> That's a Kage.



Not really.
Kages are more well rounded and skilled than Elite Jonin are

Jiriaya and Hebi Sasuke are more versatile than Deidara and Kisame 
Which allowed them to trump the two




> What's your point. Both Deidara or Kisame can probably take Kakuzu with much difficulty.



I'm not going to argue this here 

But from what was shown, I believe Kakuzu was stronger than both





> Yeah, I'm sure both Asuma and Kurenai would rape the shit out of Kisame.



No, they wouldn't

I was just pointing out Kisame had problems with Jonins
While Kakazu steamrolls them




> Yes he was.



No, he isn't

Gates are trouble for pretty much anyone who can't outspeed Gai, tank his hits,stay out of range, or overpower him



> No he didn't Kisame didn't have a sword and was already pretty injured from his fight with the Hachibi Jinchuuriki.



He got healed by Samehada on numerous occasions 
Even right before they fought

Not to mention the sword would have made no difference anyway




> No he didnt.



You want to back that up?




> Sasuke only won due to having Sharigan and Raiton affinity, and massive amounts of plot.





Sasuke had the Raiton affinity and Sharingan since Part I
Stop making excuses

He won because he was the stronger, skilled, and more intelligent ninja

Sasuke is stronger than Deidara
No matter how you try to explain it
The manga made it pretty clear




> What the fuck are you talking about? He was almost killed.



By a last resort suicidial move that covered a 7 mile radius

Pretty much anyone else would've been dead
Give the guy credit for surviving 



> Yeah, he totally could have survived _C4_ without Sharingan and Raiton Affinity. I'm sure he was just showing off, he didn't really need to diffuse it.



Does it matter?
He still beat him

Stop making this argument



> Regarding Deidara vs Kakuzu; I see little Kakuzu could do against _C3_ or _C4_. They'd both kill him and destroy all of his hearts simultaneously. If Deidara can evade Sungakure's entire desert, he can evade Kakuzu's Ninjutsu.



Because Kakuzu wouldn't blast out of the air and would watch him prep those jutsu

Never mind the masks can fly

And Deidara wouldn't be able to dodge Raiton:Gian 
Which can one-shot him and diffuse bombs at the same time


----------



## Draffut (Jul 9, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Sasori only has hype not backed up by anything.



Except the manga and the databook.  I guess ignorance is bliss though.



> I was just stating some "What If" scenario's since we never seen their fight.



No,you are making *baseless* speculation cause you don't want to accept what has been plainly stated for you as canon.

Again you've claimed in this thread that Sasori may have had a trump card to the Kazekage, please let us know what this might be otherwise you are just blowing smoke up all of our asses.  Canon is that the 3rd Kazekage actually had the perfect counter to any puppetmaster.  (And Sakura had a perfect counter to Sasori)



> When does he implies this in the manga.



When he uses it, you are welcome to go look the fight up.  Multiple people have already quoted it for you in this thread already, I will no do it again becuase you wish to be intentionally ignorant.



> Again, like I said beating a Kage does not put you on a Kage tier.



Beating one of the most powerful Kage's does.



> By the given Puppet Kazekage feats, Sasori stands no chance against 3rd Kazekage.



How so?  Please elaborate and support your baseless speculation please.



> No one would be able to kill Hidan. But many would be able to defeat him. Gai couldn't even kill Kisame with his one hit KO or seventh gate punch.



Gai wouldn't be able to 'defeat' Hidan either.  But nice try grasping at straws.  What's next, a strawman argument?  What a fucking joke.


----------



## Dolohov27 (Jul 9, 2011)

So because Hidan admitted he was slow he not Kage Level ? fuck outta here  Prove that he is not Kage level. His admittance to Akatsuki is prove of his strength, he was far more impressive than Sarutobi who try to fight the Kyuubi with a fucking monkey staff.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 9, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> No, they can't
> Onoki and A could beat them both



Onoki's likely stronger than them, especially by hype but we still don't know enough to accurately gauge his power level. They'd both beat A.



> They'd both have their hands full with Gaara
> It wouldn't be an easy fight whether they win or lose



Deidara already proved he can handle Gaara just fine. Even easier, when not facing him in the desert. Water should slow down and turn Gaara's sand into mud, slowing it greatly, decreasing it power, and ability to manipulate. _Daikodan_ would blow away his defense, and kill him. Kisame has higher Chakra Reserves. He can absorb the Chakra from his sand, and leave him unable to manipulate in the first place. His Samehada would absorb the Chakra in his sand around him, and he'd even be able to get up close and butcher him. What's Gaara going to do to him?



> They definitely beat Tsunade and Mei
> Although I doubt that's all they have to show



Mei's a given. Tsunade has definitely showcased a lot. 



> Sasuke covered a pretty good distance to get to Deidara in one shuishin
> Deidara would not be able to escape V1/V2 Raikage at 50m
> Maybe 100m



I'd be surprised if that was more than 20m. Deidara still reacted to Sasuke. A by default starts in base. Sasuke kept up with V1 Raikage, and all it takes is for Deidara to reach in his pocket(or pouch) and grab some clay. The Raikage 'aint blitzing the majority of the time.



> And we've seen what happens when Kisame goes against fast opponents
> He couldn't even percieve RM Naruto



What's your point? Since Kisame when stuck in his immobile  form can't react to RM Naruto's blitz, this automatically warrants him as Elite Jounin level? RM Naruto is the fastest character in the series right now(possibly tied with Minato). 



> V2 Raikage is near that level of speed and even stronger



He's proven slower.



> He'd Lariat Kisame before he'd know what hit him



Haha, then he'd regenerate. Base Bee's _Rariatto_ is superior to A's. Version Two Bee's was regenerated from by Kisame. Kisame would absorb his shroud. It's basically Base A vs Kisame, and the latter would take it quite handily. 



> That's why I said they're Elite Jonin with extremely haxxed abilities



No such thing. That's what Kages are. You're either a Elite Jounin, whose abilities aren't haxxxed enough to contend with a Kage or your abilities are haxxxed enough to contend with a Kage's warranting you as Kage level.



> Also, what Elite Jonins have access to Kinjutsu and the Strongest Shonobi 7 Gatana?



What?



> And since when does bijuu-level chakra qualify as a Kage Level
> I guess Yugito Nii is Kage Level



Do we know enough on Yugito Nii? She may very well, turn out to be Kage level. And Jinchuuriki all have Bijuu level Chakra by default. Kisame is one who is Bijuu-less, yet still has Chakra Reserves that rival them. That's impressive. In a group of the main antagonists of the entire series like the Akatsuki, who have members that can destroy villages, having the highest Chakra Reserves is quite the feat.



> Also, I'd put Darui and Kitsuchi in the Elite Jonin category as well(although at the bottom)



Not enough's known on Kitsuchi. And no way is Darui in the same league as Deidara or Kisame. Unless you believe he can contend with Gaara or Killer Bee.



> Just being a Kage Candidate doesn't mean you are Kage Level



Yes it does. It means you are in placement to become the Kage, if the current one can no longer fulfill his or her duties. If they recognize you as one who can potentially become the leader of the village, whose power is great enough to protect, then that warrants you as Kage level. I suppose Danzo isn't Kage level either, he's just a Kage Candidate as well.



> Suna was instable and needed to appoint a Kage to restore order
> Gaara was the best choice at the time



Prove that. I call bullshit. They don't all go frantic whenever the Kage dies. The elders and Daimyo prepare for that. Gaara wasn't picked because he was 'the best they can do on short notice.' He named Kazekage  



> Same with Kakashi



Also complete bullshit. Kakashi wasn't 'all they good find.' He was almost named Hokage on two seperate occasions. He was mentioned to make an excellent Hokage choice. Who else was better at the time? We've seen how they decide the new Kage. Either the elders or the Daimyo discuss who deserves such a position. And the discuss who would be right to 



> Guys like Jiriaya and Orochimaru are usually first choices for the Kage seat because they're Kage Level
> 
> Kakashi and Gaara were just afterthoughts



I'll admit Jiraiya and Orochimaru are stronger than Kakashi and Gaara. But that doesn't warrant Kakashi or Gaara(both who are a Kage or who have almost been named Kage) ass not Kage level. And that, 'second banana' thing is bullshit. 



> Gaara had to protect the village from C3
> That used up a lot of sand and chakra
> 
> If he didn't have to protect the village
> There's no way Deidara hits him before getting killed



How would Gaara have caught him? Deidara was only using _C1_. What would have Gaara used to win? Don't make shit up. Deidara was handling him easy with _C1_. He could've just dropped _C3_ on him or used _C4_ but he had to capture him. Hell, _C2_ would blow right through Gaara's _Suna no Tate_, but I suppose it lacks the mobility. 



> Deidara couldn't even come close to even touching Gaara the whole fight
> He lost an arm and was almost killed by a Desert Burial



He planned it that way. And when he got some of his sand and mixed it with his clay, then he was able to bypass his shield. He could've attacked him.



> C3 was blocked by sand
> And that's his strongest bomb
> 
> Nothing Deidara has can get through Gaara's sand defense(except C0) if C3 can't



_C4_ would get past it. And Gaara can't use _Kusa Boheki_ without a desert's amount of sand. Gaara doesn't use that much as his typical defense. That is his greatest defense feat, yes. But Gaara doesn't typically use that kind of defense, not even in the desert when he just maintained a _Suna no Tate_ to block his _C1_. These are more of Gaara's standard shields.



> I wasn't calling him weak at all
> 
> In fact, him avoiding Kamui shows that he's pretty formidable
> 
> ...



I meant it's no testament to lack of ability. Kage level ninjas(which Deidara is) could all have trouble and most of them be killed by _Kamui_. Though I will say, I believe Deidara to be the stronger of the two. But Kakashi would win in a fight. He possess Deidara's ultimate achilles heel; Sharingan and Raiton. And he also has _Kamui_ to employ.



> Being named as a Kage means nothing



What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, it does. Why doesn't it? Because you say so? The series and author seem to think they're Kage level then. You can't disregard canon, because you don't agree with it. There are no Jounin level Kages. That's absurdity. 



> Like I said before, the villages needed to restore order and appoint Kages immediately



We've seen how villages name new Kages, when the old one is killed. They do it urgently, but not so much in a rush, that they'll leave some crappy ninja as their leader. They still have to make logical excellent decisions on who is fit to lead the village, but they just to do it hastily. I suppose Jiraiya actually isn't Kage level either, since he was almost named in such a rush. 



> It had more to do with politics and running a country than actual power
> Otherwise Danzo wouldn't have been appointed



Prove it. They don't base the Kage title on politics, the person has to be strong enough to defend and lead the village. Not politically fit. 



> Kakashi and Gaara were the best options at the time
> 
> Gaara was allowed to be Kage so they could monitor Shakaku anyways



Who would have been better to lead the village then Gaara. You just made that bullshit up. 



> And to be honest, I think Deidara and Kisame were meant to be on the same level as Gai/Kakashi/Gaara
> 
> From what they've shown in there fights against each other



How does Kakashi even compare to Kisame? Gai was a terrible matchup for Kisame, just as Kakashi is a terrible matchup for Deidara. Kisame can defeat Kakashi rather handily. Same with Deidara and Gai. Added to the fact that Deidara already proved much greater than Gaara, and I believe Kisame can match and defeat Gaara as well.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 9, 2011)

> Not really.
> Kages are more well rounded and skilled than Elite Jonin are



Like A is, right?



> Jiriaya and Hebi Sasuke are more versatile than Deidara and Kisame
> Which allowed them to trump the two



Jiraiya never trumped anything. And Hebi Sasuke didn't win on versatility. He won because he had Sharingan and Raiton affinity. So he could diffuse Deidara's bombs. No 'versatility' bullshit played any part in it.  



> I'm not going to argue this here
> 
> But from what was shown, I believe Kakuzu was stronger than both



Then, why can't you provide your reasoning to why you believe so?



> No, they wouldn't
> 
> I was just pointing out Kisame had problems with Jonins
> While Kakazu steamrolls them



Kakuzu didn't steamroll anything. He was matched by Kakashi(who I think is Kage level, but was officially a Jounin). Also, how Kakuzu handles two completely different characters doesn't warrant him stronger than Kisame. Kakuzu is a Ninjutsu type, the type Kisame thrives on. He'd take all of his Chakra, and destroy his hearts. Kakuzu has nothing to overcome Kisame's durability and regeneration. Ninjutsu types against Kisame are already set to lose.



> No, he isn't



Yes, he is. Kisame's fighting style revolves around taking the opponent's Chakra, and growing stronger in proportion to them getting weaker. Against Gai, he couldn't employ this. He relies solely on Taijutsu. He even thought his _Hirudora_ was a Ninjutsu, and attempted to absorb it. Added to the fact that he was already injured and lacked a sword. Explain to me how he isn't?



> Gates are trouble for pretty much anyone who can't outspeed Gai, tank his hits,stay out of range, or overpower him



Those aren't the reasons why he was such a bad matchup for Kisame.



> He got healed by Samehada on numerous occasions
> Even right before they fought



When did that happen?



> Not to mention the sword would have made no difference anyway



Yeah, not like it could've healed him or Gai, or _Suiro Sameodori_ wouldn't have made a difference or anything.



> You want to back that up?



What's there to back up? Sasuke didn't completely own shit. He was almost killed.



> Sasuke had the Raiton affinity and Sharingan since Part I
> Stop making excuses



It's not an excuse. He won because he was able to diffuse his bombs. This is made an incredibly clear. Don't know how I can make it any clearer. I don't care if he's had it since he was in the womb, it's still Deidara's ultimate combo weakness, don't pretend like it isn't.



> He won because he was the stronger, skilled, and more intelligent ninja



Haha, yeah he totally could've survived _C4_ without diffusing any bombs, I'm sure. 



> Sasuke is stronger than Deidara
> No matter how you try to explain it
> The manga made it pretty clear



The manga made it clear that he won because he can diffuse his bombs. If he were stronger and didn't need to diffuse them, then he wouldn't have done so if it wasn't necessary, and Kishimoto wouldn't have written it. 



> By a last resort suicidial move that covered a 7 mile radius
> 
> Pretty much anyone else would've been dead
> Give the guy credit for surviving



What's your point? Almost being killed is almost being killed.



> Does it matter?
> He still beat him
> 
> Stop making this argument



Yes, it does matter. Yeah, it's not like everyone who's won a battle in this manga has always been stronger than the person they defeated. 



> Because Kakuzu wouldn't blast out of the air and would watch him prep those jutsu



'Prep' consists of reaching into his pouch and grabbing some clay with his mouths. If he can evade Gaara's entire desert, than he can evade some Ninjutsu. 



> Never mind the masks can fly



Only his Fuuton one has displayed such an ability.



> And Deidara wouldn't be able to dodge Raiton:Gian
> Which can one-shot him and diffuse bombs at the same time



Kakuzu would need Doujutsu to distinguish it's Doton nature and know to diffuse it with Raiton. Never mind that a linear beam, with Deidara's aerial maneuverability and his bombs maneuverability can easily find ways to move around such an attack. Deidara would try to conceal his Jutsu's weakness, instead of letting Kakuzu figure such a thing out.


----------



## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 9, 2011)

shintebukuro said:


> Who gives a fuck if he got owned seconds later? What does that have to do with my point? If he can defend against Asakujaku, then he wouldn't get injuries from part 1 Kakashi clone.



Kisame never defended against Asakujaku. The one time Gai aimed it at Kisame the clone died. At Turtle Island, Gai defended with Asakujaku. Kisame was attacking with his 1000 sharks so that his intel could get away.


----------



## general-david (Jul 9, 2011)

Elite jonin and kages can be the same in terms of strength/power.
/End of thread.


----------



## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jul 9, 2011)

you have people saying Deidara a guy who can one shot an entire village is on the same level as kakashi? 

Lol people are so blinded by hype its not even funny


----------



## Hasan (Jul 9, 2011)

10 persons being a threat to the five great nations; in Jiraiya's words, wandering about collecting 'things' known as Bijuu and handling them as they do it everyday.  Of course, they are *Jou*nins = *Elite* Ninja.
You can't send Genins to hunt down Bijuu.

Kage = Jounin + Leadership qualities.

*1.* Kakuzu was sent to kill Hashirama. Granted, he was beaten but the point is that _he_ was selected for this task.

*2.* Diedara, 19, was exceptional for his age.


----------



## Draffut (Jul 9, 2011)

Sasukethe7thHokage said:


> you have people saying Deidara a guy who can one shot an entire village is on the same level as kakashi?
> 
> Lol people are so blinded by hype its not even funny



Being able to kill lots of defenseless mooks doesn't make you higher tier.

What hype are we being blinded by exactly?


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 9, 2011)

Deidara and Kisame can solo most of the Villages, like hell their not kage level.


----------



## Kisame3rd14 (Jul 9, 2011)

Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, and even Sasori are all kage level. The only person that your fooling is yourself.


----------



## Shidoshi (Jul 9, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Jiraiya never trumped anything. And Hebi Sasuke didn't win on versatility. He won because he had Sharingan and Raiton affinity. So he could diffuse Deidara's bombs. No 'versatility' bullshit played any part in it.


To be clear, Sasuke knew his Raiton had an advantage over Deidara's Doton, but wasn't sure if it were capable of _defusing_ his Doton's explosive capabilities...part of why the fight went on for so long is because Sasuke was both trying *not* to kill Deidara (as he only wanted information), and that he was busy analyzing Deidara (the entire C1 through C3 was just a scientific experiment for Sasuke, C4 and C0 were not).

Nor was what he did his only option, as Sasuke himself admitted.  So, the arguement can be made that Sasuke was more versatile...especially considering he'd shown a wider variety of different types of techniques (elemental and kuchiyose ninjutsu, taijutsu enough to send Deidara flying over a dozen yards with a single punch, and genjutsu) than Deidara did.



> _What's there to back up? Sasuke didn't completely own shit. He was almost killed._


At only two points was he in any *real* danger to be killed outright (and only one of those two points would have actually left Deidara alive) -- C4 and C0, and he had answers to both.

Didn't Jiraiya say that it's much harder to capture someone than it is to outright kill them?  If Sasuke wanted Deidara dead, that fight would have ended much sooner, because Deidara still would want to use the same techniques as he was *definitely* trying to kill Sasuke.



> _It's not an excuse. He won because he was able to diffuse his bombs. This is made an incredibly clear. Don't know how I can make it any clearer. I don't care if he's had it since he was in the womb, it's still Deidara's ultimate combo weakness, don't pretend like it isn't._


The main difference between the two arguements is that Sasuke had other methods than doing what he did during their fight, and even then, if he actually wanted Deidara dead (rather than alive for info on Itachi), he would have killed him much earlier in the fight.



> _Haha, yeah he totally could've survived C4 without diffusing any bombs, I'm sure. _


Correct.  He would not have survived had he not defused them.  How does that take away from Sasuke being stronger or more versatile than Deidara?



> _The manga made it clear that he won because he can diffuse his bombs. If he were stronger and didn't need to diffuse them, then he wouldn't have done so if it wasn't necessary, and Kishimoto wouldn't have written it._


The manga made it clear Sasuke won because Deidara tried killing them both to end their fight in a draw, and failed to take Sasuke with him.  The manga also made it clear, several times throughout their fight, that Sasuke wasn't even going in with intent to kill -- he just wanted info on Itachi.  Sasuke having the elemental advantage didn't negate the possibility of Deidara's doton techniques still being explosive, as Sasuke himself says, and having the Sharingan is as much an advantage as is the ability to fly unaided with birds made of clay or having mouths on your hands and chest that turn doton clay into explosives.

What is made abundantly clear is that Deidara was not strong enough to defeat or kill Sasuke without even having to resort to using a suicide move that ended up failing to kill him anyway.



> _What's your point? Almost being killed is almost being killed._


Almost being killed because you're experimenting with someone's attacks when you're not even trying to kill them is not the same as almost being killed by going all out and leaving nothing out of your attempts.



> _Yes, it does matter. Yeah, it's not like everyone who's won a battle in this manga has always been stronger than the person they defeated. _


True indeed.  In this case, however, Hebi Sasuke was either stronger than Deidara's best attacks (including the one meant for his then-stronger brother) or had a much more versatile set of abilities that could deal with any contingency Deidara could come up with...up to and including nuking himself within a 10km radius...

...because Sharingan and Raiton (especially) didn't directly negate or counter C0.



> _'Prep' consists of reaching into his pouch and grabbing some clay with his mouths. If he can evade Gaara's entire desert, than he can evade some Ninjutsu._


"Prep" choosing to go after the Uchiha rather than the Kyuubi Jinchuuriki, taking a partner along that could even enable him to use C2 (or was that C3) and landmines, and using a technique on the Uchiha he was pre-planning to use on *that* Uchiha's then-stronger older brother.  And when all those failed, resort to suicide and hopefully take that Uchiha with him, to end the fight as a draw.

That sufficiently fits the criteria for "prep".



> _Kakuzu would need Doujutsu to distinguish it's Doton nature and know to diffuse it with Raiton. Never mind that a linear beam, with Deidara's aerial maneuverability and his bombs maneuverability can easily find ways to move around such an attack. Deidara would try to conceal his Jutsu's weakness, instead of letting Kakuzu figure such a thing out._


Kakuzu could guess at Deidara's bombs chakra nature, figuring that clay might be Doton-based; he'd have a 1-in-5 chance of guessing correctly, and has enough hearts that grant him the ablity to cycle throught the elemental wheel of fortune.

That is, of course, assuming his Doton armor can protect him from the brunt of Deidara's explosives.


----------



## Sasukethe7thHokage (Jul 9, 2011)

Cardboard Jewsuke said:


> Being able to kill lots of defenseless mooks doesn't make you higher tier.
> 
> What hype are we being blinded by exactly?


Every week its the same thing kishi hypes a character people get carried away and start dehyping characters they haven't seen in awhile

elite jonin's , kages ect its all about how you veiw the character i personally look at it like this if you can take a army or a bijju by yourself your a kage level nin period.... 

but its all about point of veiw were at 19 pages for that exact reason lol its impossible to come to a agreement on who is at what level because everyone veiws different powers , different characters , different hype differently

I personally dont see how deidara couldnt be kage level i mean the guy is a village level threat with wide scale attacks and he took down a Bijju and you put him in the same category as kakashi? can kakashi take down a bijju? can kakshi solo a village or an army? no he cant but..... like i said its all about point of veiw


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## BBQuyomi (Jul 9, 2011)

Dolohov27 said:


> Hidan alone could solo most Kages.


He is probably a one trick pony. Once he gets known for his way of defeating opponents (I don't know how this info actually managed to stay out of the Bingo Book for so long), he just can't do anything against most kages.

Hidan tries to draw his fancy symbol ? Gaara buries his drawing under tons of sand, Raikage punches him away, Onoki turns the whole place into dust, Mei floods his face with water, Tsunade might struggle if circumstances work heavily against her but Hidan is probably going to be too slow.

Hidan was mostly a character designed for unexpected plot twists and hyping Kakuzu's brutal firepower via his immortality. Kakuzu's flying turrets alone were enough to forbid almost anyone from approaching him in a 1 vs 1 situation if it's not for getting blasted in multiple crossfires. He got plot-no-jutsued twice.


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## Corrupt Shinobi (Jul 9, 2011)

Are you kidding me? Don't get me wrong, I like your thread, and I'm not a fan of Konan or anything. But she injured Madara, made Madara use Izanagi. She can clearly fight on Kage level. I think the weakest member of the Akatsuki was Hidan. I believe he and Zetsu would be the only ones incapable of soloing a Kage.


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## T-Bag (Jul 10, 2011)

Hidan should have been hella lot more impressive, but unfortunetely kishi had to kill him off quickly. So he wasn't really developed like he should have been.


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## EnterTheTao (Jul 10, 2011)

Madara... lol, obvious kage.

Itachi? duh.

Nagato? duh.

Deidara bested and captured a kage in combat. obviously kage level.

Kisame's strength grows in direct proportion to his opponent's chakra levels. Only recorded lost was without his sword and against a taijutsu master. Not a stretch to assume kage-level.

Sasori killed legendary kage of Suna, obviously kage level.

Orochimaru killed and bested two kage, obviously kage level.

Kakuzu had over a hundred years of experience and could use all five elements. Just as well, he survived combat with Hashirama before his prime. Obvious kage level.

Konan with prep beats every non Sharingan, non Jinchuriki, non Pain character in the manga. Potentially kage level.

can't really defend Hidan but I guess he could catch just about anybody by surprise. He's not going down without at least scarring his opponent... and that's all he needs, really. 

arguments here seem dumb. organization was obviously designed to be filled with all S-tier ninja.

Lord Zetsu has no feats, so no judgement


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## Tobirama Senju (Jul 10, 2011)

lets see lets see.
deidara almost wiped out sand and got his hands on gaara

sasori turned strongest kazekage in sand's history into a puppet and solo'd a nation

kisame, we all seen what he's capable off so i wont bother

kakuzu fought hashirama and survived, he got rasengan trolled but that doesnt mean he was weak, he was almost immortal and could use multiple elements, definitely higher than a "elite jounin"

konan almost killed madara while others couldnt even lay a finger on him, i mean heh c'mon

orochimaru's obviously kage lvl, he was a hokage candidate before he bordered that line with forbidden techniques, we know that he became stronger after he left the village.

and poor hidan was a bit on the crazy side, rushin in relyin on his immortality and not to mention kishi didnt even bother to give the guy some abilities so yea, probably hidan's the only one that u can call a "elite jounin". others, naaaaaah not at all


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## Sharingan-Uchiha (Jul 10, 2011)

You do know that even Kage are only elite jounin level right? elite jounin is pretty hot.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 10, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> I think Oro and Kakazu are Kage Level too
> 
> But otherwise, I completely agree
> 
> Hidan, Konan, Deidara, and Kisame are definitely not Kage Level



How are Deidara and Kisame not Kage level, but Kakuzu is? Bias much?


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## akatsukisafari (Jul 10, 2011)

Kakashi = Elite Jounin = Kage level.

So the problem is? There is none, its the truth. 

How about the Sannin? They are practically just elite jounins too, Sannin is just a title given by Hanzo, not a ninjarank.


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## DoflaMihawk (Jul 10, 2011)

MY opinion on Kage Level Akatsuki members.

Definitely: Madara, Nagato, Itachi, Orochimaru

Maybe: Deidara, Kisame, Kakuzu, Sasori

Probably Not: Zetsu, Hidan, Konan


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## Charlotte D. Kurisu (Jul 10, 2011)

details shouldnt matter anymore.. lets just all agree that they're all kage level.. with hidan being arguable..


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## Prince Vegeta (Jul 10, 2011)

Madara, Itachi, Kisame, Nagato, are above Hokage level.


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## Barioth (Jul 10, 2011)

You can say Kage-Stats can take them one on one but you can't claim that Kage-Stats can Speed Blitz. An example Raikage and Killer Bee Double Lariat Kisame
*Spoiler*: __ 



we though he is dead but it turns out he is alive. Even without Samehada, Kisame survive a One Hit Kill. 


 Deidara survive Kamui.  Another example Kakuzu he fail to assassin to Shodaime Hokage but who have the guts to do that and even kill he survive. So in conclusion Akatsuki are group of member of Shinobi that have done something that was very well known throughout the 5 Village. and also don't forget that most if not all Akatsuki learn 1 or more that will be label as Kinjutsu.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 10, 2011)

Elite Jonin=Kage.

Kage=Elite Jonin.


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## Odlam (Jul 10, 2011)

Eh, no. Asuma was elite jounnin and even Hidan could mop the floor with him. Naruto is a Gennin still even.

Each ranking level is a base, but not a limit. As Naruto/Sasuke show, even a gennin could be stronger than a kage if you get what I'm saying. The minimum required level is lower, but there is no cap on any level.

That being said, I think it's fair to say that about half of Akatsuki were elite jounnin/low kage level. As stated above me by RumbleKing, it's really interchangable unless it's simply an elite jounnin whose older or peaked out. But most elite jounnin, like Kakashi or Darui, are simply low kage level shinobi in the making, and will become stronger as the years pass. Deidara was the same, he was beaten by Hebi Sasuke but I have no doubt if he'd lived a longer life he'd be a very high level kage in time.

Orochimaru, Sasori, Itachi, Nagato, Madara were all strong kage level at least, with Kakuzu and Kisame w/ Samehada also ranking up there.


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## Andrew (Jul 10, 2011)

All of them work for a mercenary under Madara and Nagato who was second in charge. Surely they were highly experienced Jonins, but their missions were all obscure which makes Each member of Akatsuki is an S-rank criminal. Each of them are unique and most of them are Kage level shinobi. 
*
Almost* all of them succeed in defeating Kages in different villages.

Sasori-  defeated sand village Kage

Orochimaru- defeated Sand village Kage      (Lol, at the  Sand Villages) 

Deidara Defeated Sand Village Kage  

Kakuzu- Lost against the first

Nagato- Defeated hidden Rain Kage

Itachi- With his M.S, he is a high Kage Level. 

Kisame- Everybody knows he is tailed beast level with his Samaheada 

 So most of them are talented and have experience more than just an elite Jonin, but also kage level as well.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 10, 2011)

What is the real line between "Elite Jonin" and "Kage-level," anyway?


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## SaVaGe609 (Jul 10, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> What is the real line between "Elite Jonin" and "Kage-level," anyway?



Usually one, hella haxx, gimmicky, defining ability


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## Barioth (Jul 10, 2011)

Well there is a Shikaku who is a Jonin Commander and can decide whether you fit to be a KAGE.  Remember the 6th Hokage scene.


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## TheOneManiac (Jul 11, 2011)

Mathias124 said:


> Yet Sasori is the only one to have defeated a kage (a legendary one to boot) and Kisame hasnt..
> 
> Sasori is obviously kage level, he proved that when he defeated the 3rd



Deidara defeated a Kage.


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## Marsala (Jul 11, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> What is the real line between "Elite Jonin" and "Kage-level," anyway?



Part 1 Kakashi. Of course it's not a set line; Part 1 Kakashi could probably defeat some actual Kages.


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## THE immortal ROCKLEE (Jul 11, 2011)

I would personally put Kisame and Deidara over Sasori. I dont think Hidan is to shabby either he just got screwed over.


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## Marsala (Jul 11, 2011)

THE immortal ROCKLEE said:


> I would personally put Kisame and Deidara over Sasori. I dont think Hidan is to shabby either he just got screwed over.



Hidan is very dangerous but he doesn't deserve to be Kage level. He's in the same "very top of Jounin level with unique abilities" region as Kimimaro, Suigetsu, and Juugo.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> Hidan is very dangerous but he doesn't deserve to be Kage level. He's in the same "very top of Jounin level with unique abilities" region as Kimimaro, Suigetsu, and Juugo.



Agreed. It's a kind of little level above standard Elite Jounin, but below Low Kage level.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 11, 2011)

SaVaGe609 said:


> Usually one, hella haxx, gimmicky, defining ability



True. But other than that they all have high stats, great skill, and other cool jutsus. And  besides, in battles, those gimmicky hax abilities usually don't win it  for them, after the opponent dodges, blocks, or counters everything, the  final attack is usually something simple. 



Marsala said:


> Part 1 Kakashi. Of course it's not a set line;  Part 1 Kakashi could probably defeat some actual Kages.



Pt.1 Kakashi is the same as pt.2 Kakashi, just without Kamui. 



Marsala said:


> Hidan is very dangerous but he doesn't deserve to be Kage level. He's in the same "very top of Jounin level with unique abilities" region as Kimimaro, Suigetsu, and Juugo.



Based on what we saw. He does have other curse jutsus.

Just sucks that Hidan will forever be the runt of Akatsuki unless we learn what some of those other curses were.


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## GangWarlord (Jul 11, 2011)

Kage is little more than a title. Gaara would most likely get his sh*t wrecked if he fought Guy.


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## KAKASHI10 (Jul 11, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> *Pt.1 Kakashi is the same as pt.2 Kakashi, just without Kamui. *



 I mean for reals this was my expression =


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## Marsala (Jul 11, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> Pt.1 Kakashi is the same as pt.2 Kakashi, just without Kamui.


And Pt. 1 Kabuto is the same as pt. 2 Kabuto, just without snakes and Edo Tensei. 



> Based on what we saw. He does have other curse jutsus.
> 
> Just sucks that Hidan will forever be the runt of Akatsuki unless we learn what some of those other curses were.



Kishimoto said that Hidan had more tricks in his scythe, not more curses. Scythe tricks would be gimmicks that wouldn't really increase Hidan's overall level.


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## Friday (Jul 11, 2011)

To people on this forum there's an almost invisible line between people who are considered elite jonin level and people who are considered kage level.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 11, 2011)

KAKASHI10 said:


> I mean for reals this was my expression =



What's the problem?



Marsala said:


> And Pt. 1 Kabuto is the same as pt. 2 Kabuto, just without snakes and Edo Tensei.
> 
> Kishimoto said that Hidan had more tricks in his scythe, not more curses. Scythe tricks would be gimmicks that wouldn't really increase Hidan's overall level.



I don't get the joke. 

I can't quote, but he did mention that Hidan uses "curse_*s*_."


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## Marsala (Jul 11, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:


> What's the problem?
> 
> 
> 
> I don't get the joke.



The joke is that Kamui is an unbelievably powerful and broken jutsu, a serious contender for most deadly/powerful/broken attack jutsu. It's so broken that Kishimoto has resorted to having Kakashi forget that he has it most of the time, and gave Madara unexplained blatant plot protection from it.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jul 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> The joke is that Kamui is an unbelievably powerful and broken jutsu, a serious contender for most deadly/powerful/broken attack jutsu. It's so broken that Kishimoto has resorted to having Kakashi forget that he has it most of the time, and gave Madara unexplained blatant plot protection from it.



Agreed, just like basic jutsus, lol. But I said they're the same _except_ for Kamui.


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## Barioth (Jul 11, 2011)

Marsala said:


> The joke is that Kamui is an unbelievably powerful and broken jutsu, a serious contender for most deadly/powerful/broken attack jutsu. It's so broken that Kishimoto has resorted to having Kakashi forget that he has it most of the time, and gave Madara unexplained blatant plot protection from it.



Back then he saw through everything I did. Is this justifiable. God forbid Kishimoto.


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## Barioth (Jul 11, 2011)

Friday said:


> To people on this forum there's an almost invisible line between people who are considered elite jonin level and people who are considered kage level.



Shikaku disagree this. Shikaku disagree Danzo. It is safe to say S-Rank is above A-Rank and A-Rank is intended to be Jonin and Kage level. An example? SAVE MOFO GAARA = A RANK MISSION(S Rank in anime).


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## ashher (Jul 11, 2011)

Only hidan is clearly an elite junin. Kakuzu because of his nature manipulations, could be a low kage, or an elite junin. Sasori is also a difficult one to place. His poisons are dangerous, and poison is what enabled hanzo to be good enough to beat sannins and be kage level. So yeah its more likely that sasori is also kage level. All the rest of akatsuki are clearly kage level. Deidara can keep up with onoki, kisame had to be nerfed down time and again to kill off. Itachi, orochimaru, nagato, zetsu and tobi don't even need to be explained.


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## shintebukuro (Jul 11, 2011)

UltimateDeadpool said:
			
		

> can't quote, but he did mention that Hidan uses "curses."



There are no plurals in Japanese.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 11, 2011)

ashher said:


> Only hidan is clearly an elite junin. Kakuzu because of his nature manipulations, could be a low kage, or an elite junin. Sasori is also a difficult one to place. His poisons are dangerous, and poison is what enabled hanzo to be good enough to beat sannins and be kage level. So yeah its more likely that sasori is also kage level. All the rest of akatsuki are clearly kage level. Deidara can keep up with onoki, kisame had to be nerfed down time and again to kill off. Itachi, orochimaru, nagato, zetsu and tobi don't even need to be explained.



How is Zetsu Kage level? And Deidara isn't stronger than Sasori.


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## Stermor (Jul 11, 2011)

guess all the akatsuki are elite jounin lvl.. lol 

you have village buster, kage killer, people who survived fighting against the shodaime, them beating jinchuuriki. i'm not sure what you need for beeing kage lvl but i would consider that.. 

also we can reverse the argument.. 

you say deidara is a elite jounin.. but when he fights muu, he will just drop a bomb and kill muu.. not even bothering with tricks or stff.. actually quite casual. would take now make muu as a kage the new genin rank or something?? 

same with gaara, he beat gaara without going all out, does that mean gaara is even weaker then an elite jounin.. 

or how about gai beating kisame.. while kisame beat killerbee.. killerbee is stronger then any kage to date.. does that make kage's genin for beeing beaten by somebody who got beat by a elite jounin?? 

lol there are more rguments to make for kages beeing genin then there are for akatsuki being elite jounin... 


People must understand Kages can lose from other Kages without beeing weaker then them...

Also name one elite jounin who could beat hidan?? kakashi and gai are kage lvl... 

hidan is aswell. he is the weakest kage lvl we know. but he will be able to kill any elite jounin arround..


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## PoinT_BlanK (Jul 11, 2011)

This thread..


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## kzk (Jul 11, 2011)

Klue said:


> Sasori killed the strongest Kazekage in history, what the fuck are you smoking?
> 
> Believe it or not, feats aside, all of the Akatsuki members were top elite shinobi, just as these guys are (current and past Kages).



Yeah, how are people forgetting that?


What you're seeing here is the Zabuza effect. He himself is supposed to be practically on par with Kakashi, but because he's the first villain in the series he is doomed to getting shit on and trivialized by everyone who comes after as there needs to be a series of increasingly impressive feats to keep the reader interested. Akatsuki came rather early in part 2 and as such will undoubtedly be relegated to fodder status by the feats arm race going on right now. They aren't actually weaker.


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## Barioth (Jul 11, 2011)

In the end Kakashi says: The next generation will always surpass the previous one. It's one of the never-ending cycles in life.

I fail to see the logic here


----------



## akatsukisafari (Jul 11, 2011)

GangWarlord said:


> Kage is little more than a title. Gaara would most likely get his sh*t wrecked if he fought Guy.



lol yeah. Guy>Kisame>Deidara>Gaara.

Its canon.


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## Barioth (Jul 11, 2011)

akatsukisafari said:


> lol yeah. Guy>Kisame>Deidara>Gaara.
> 
> Its canon.



S Rank > A Rank > B Rank > C Rank > D Rank > ? Rank 

Its canon.


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## ashher (Jul 11, 2011)

Wind Master said:


> How is Zetsu Kage level? And Deidara isn't stronger than Sasori.



in case you haven't noticed, zetsu is basically single handedly  waging war against 5 villages. He has the best spying tools, as well as chakra sucking abilities and that only the white part. The black part's ability is yet unknown. And it was never established that deidara is weaker than sasori.


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## CCV (Jul 11, 2011)

How is Itachi kage level? He and Kisame had to run away from Jiriaya's one move.


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## Canute87 (Jul 11, 2011)

I don't see Konan being just elite jonin.
I don't know what kind of elite jonin can have four aburame clan members to their knees with just a bunshin.


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## TheOneManiac (Jul 11, 2011)

CCV said:


> How is Itachi kage level? He and Kisame had to run away from Jiriaya's one move.





The J-Man himself is Kage level, and he was able to keep up with Pein for a while, with absolutely no intel... The fact that Itachi and Kisame were able to do battle with the J-Man is an amazing feat in and of itself.

Saying Itachi (prime/no sickness/no blindness) is not Kage level is like saying Sasuke isn't at least high kage level (if not God tier). Even as a Sasuke hater I have to say that, so I can't imagine how much of an Itachi hater you are in order to deny his power.


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## Guru (Jul 11, 2011)

Well all the akatsuki members are S Class missing Nin. 

It's clear that Itachi and Nagato are stronger than any of the Kages, and the rest, while not as strong, are probably pretty close.


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## Godaime Kazekage (Jul 11, 2011)

Canute87 said:


> I don't see Konan being just elite jonin.
> I don't know what kind of elite jonin can have four aburame clan members to their knees with just a bunshin.



Manga panels please?


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## Barioth (Jul 11, 2011)

Why can't people just trust the BINGO BOOK.


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## Raidoton (Jul 11, 2011)

Canute87 said:


> I don't see Konan being just elite jonin.
> I don't know what kind of elite jonin can have four aburame clan members to their knees with just a bunshin.


Neither were them to their knees, nor was Konan a bunshin...


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jul 11, 2011)

I think all the members are Kage level except Hiden. Each member of Akatsuki was beat by a Kage level foe Or a bunch of elite ninja with kage level jutsu, but hiden.
 Asuma technically beat Hidan, but hiden used a kage level jutsu to win, then lose to Shikamaru who prep for said jutsu.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 12, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Onoki's likely stronger than them, especially by hype but we still don't know enough to accurately gauge his power level. They'd both beat A.



Hed still beat them

As would A





> Deidara already proved he can handle Gaara just fine. Even easier, when not facing him in the desert. Water should slow down and turn Gaara's sand into mud, slowing it greatly, decreasing it power, and ability to manipulate. _Daikodan_ would blow away his defense, and kill him. Kisame has higher Chakra Reserves. He can absorb the Chakra from his sand, and leave him unable to manipulate in the first place. His Samehada would absorb the Chakra in his sand around him, and he'd even be able to get up close and butcher him. What's Gaara going to do to him?



Gaara can create an insane amount of sand even when not in the desert
As shown in SRA

And Gaara can create as much as sand as Kisame can water
They'd both stalemate there

Even w/o Shakuku 
Gaara's dad thought Shakuku was responsible for the Desert Avalanche

Anyways Gaara can put up a fight against these guys and maybe beat them in some scenarios and vice versa

And this is irrelevant anyways

As I pretty much conceded that Kisame and Deidara could beat Gaara
When I said I consider them pretty much on the same level




> Mei's a given. Tsunade has definitely showcased a lot.



I've given you this already




> I'd be surprised if that was more than 20m. Deidara still reacted to Sasuke. A by default starts in base. Sasuke kept up with V1 Raikage, and all it takes is for Deidara to reach in his pocket(or pouch) and grab some clay. The Raikage 'aint blitzing the majority of the time.



It'll take a lot more time than that for him to reach the skies
Which he will need to do to have a chance to beat the Raikage

The bird has to first be formed
Then it has to take its actual size as a C1 owl
He has to jump on it 
It has to take flight

All this while Raikage is blitzing him





> What's your point? Since Kisame when stuck in his immobile  form can't react to RM Naruto's blitz, this automatically warrants him as Elite Jounin level? RM Naruto is the fastest character in the series right now(possibly tied with Minato).



My point is that RM Naruto is so fast

Not only could Kisame not even see nor percieve him coming(and Bee only saw a flash)

Samehada wasn't even fast enough to absorb the shroud

V2 Raikage's isn't slower by a significant margin
And he's more powerful

Kisame even being mobile wouldn't be able to react to V2 A

Sasuke couldn't and he needed Susanoo to protect himself
And even that failed 



> He's proven slower.



Not by much 




> Haha, then he'd regenerate. Base Bee's _Rariatto_ is superior to A's. Version Two Bee's was regenerated from by Kisame. Kisame would absorb his shroud. It's basically Base A vs Kisame, and the latter would take it quite handily.



Raikage's Lightning Armor allows him to neatly cut through limbs
Kisame would likely fall to a V2 Raigyaku Suihei 
Since he hasn't shown he could react to something like that

He'd get decapitated





> No such thing. That's what Kages are. You're either a Elite Jounin, whose abilities aren't haxxxed enough to contend with a Kage or your abilities are haxxxed enough to contend with a Kage's warranting you as Kage level.



But just having haxxed abilities doesn't make an Elite Jonin a Kage Level 

Many Kage Levels can counter and deal with the haxxed abilities of Deidara and Kisame




> Do we know enough on Yugito Nii? She may very well, turn out to be Kage level. And Jinchuuriki all have Bijuu level Chakra by default. Kisame is one who is Bijuu-less, yet still has Chakra Reserves that rival them. That's impressive. In a group of the main antagonists of the entire series like the Akatsuki, who have members that can destroy villages, having the highest Chakra Reserves is quite the feat.



So someone who got beat by Hidan is going to be Kage Level?




> Not enough's known on Kitsuchi. And no way is Darui in the same league as Deidara or Kisame. Unless you believe he can contend with Gaara or Killer Bee.



I believe he is

He just doesn't have the haxxed abilities of Deidara and Kisame




> Prove that. I call bullshit. They don't all go frantic whenever the Kage dies. The elders and Daimyo prepare for that. Gaara wasn't picked because he was 'the best they can do on short notice.' He named Kazekage



Suna was unstable
Suna was in bad shape even before Gaara became Kazekage

Gaara was the strongest ninja Suna had to offer when he was named Kazekage

Doesn't mean he was Kage Level



> Also complete bullshit. Kakashi wasn't 'all they good find.' He was almost named Hokage on two seperate occasions. He was mentioned to make an excellent Hokage choice. Who else was better at the time? We've seen how they decide the new Kage. Either the elders or the Daimyo discuss who deserves such a position. And the discuss who would be right to



Who else in Konoha was as strong as Kakashi and could actually lead a village at the time he was mentioned?

I'll wait
Kakashi was the best fit 
That's all




> I'll admit Jiraiya and Orochimaru are stronger than Kakashi and Gaara. But that doesn't warrant Kakashi or Gaara(both who are a Kage or who have almost been named Kage) ass not Kage level. And that, 'second banana' thing is bullshit.



I'm saying under the circumstances their villages were under 

They were the best choices for Kage at the time





> How would Gaara have caught him? Deidara was only using _C1_. What would have Gaara used to win? Don't make shit up. Deidara was handling him easy with _C1_. He could've just dropped _C3_ on him or used _C4_ but he had to capture him. Hell, _C2_ would blow right through Gaara's _Suna no Tate_, but I suppose it lacks the mobility.



The same way he took off his arm

Deidara wasn't handling him with C1 until he exhausted his chakra protecting the village from C3

And how will he drop C3/C4 when Gaara's in his range
That would be collateral damage




> He planned it that way. And when he got some of his sand and mixed it with his clay, then he was able to bypass his shield. *He could've attacked him*.



None of Deidara's straightforward attacks worked though





> I meant it's no testament to lack of ability. Kage level ninjas(which Deidara is) could all have trouble and most of them be killed by _Kamui_. Though I will say, I believe Deidara to be the stronger of the two. But Kakashi would win in a fight. He possess Deidara's ultimate achilles heel; Sharingan and Raiton. And he also has _Kamui_ to employ.



I'd say they're on the same level
And a fight between them could go either way




> What the fuck are you talking about? Yes, it does. Why doesn't it? Because you say so? The series and author seem to think they're Kage level then. You can't disregard canon, because you don't agree with it. There are no Jounin level Kages. That's absurdity.



I worded it wrong

I meant being named as a Kage doesn't necessarily mean that your power is Kage Level

I'm not sure if people were aware at how strong Danzo and Gaara were when they made them Kages of their respectives villages

But the fact is that the villages needed a Kage 
And those two were the best choices at the time




> We've seen how villages name new Kages, when the old one is killed. They do it urgently, but not so much in a rush, that they'll leave some crappy ninja as their leader. *They still have to make logical excellent decisions on who is fit to lead the village, but they just to do it hastily.* I suppose Jiraiya actually isn't Kage level either, since he was almost named in such a rush.



Thats right 

You said it
They have to make the best choice for who to be next Kage

All Kage candidates are conviniently chosen based on village status, ninja status, or political status

Gaara: Suna was the weakest of 5 villages, had no Kage, lost a war, Gaara had Shakaku and was the villages trump card and possibly strongest nin in the village

Kakashi: Village was in shambles, previous Kage was unable to hold seat, was the strongest ninja in the village(besides Naruto) who could run a village, Konoha needed a Kage immediately

Jiriaya: Original candidate for 5th Hokage title,Leaf recovering from Invansion, previous Kage died, Konoha needed to restore order, Jiriaya was the best choice of many choices, holder of Sannin title and clearly Kage Level




> Prove it. They don't base the Kage title on politics, the person has to be strong enough to defend and lead the village. Not politically fit.



Ok, here



> Who would have been better to lead the village then Gaara. You just made that bullshit up.



They wanted to monitor and keep Shakaku under control

Gaara as the village's trump card was the most logical choice


----------



## Deadway (Jul 12, 2011)

Hanzo has shown to be elite jounin by feats but by hype he's > or = to Pain.

Just cause they don't show all these fancy jutsu doesn't mean they can't kill kage level shinobi.


----------



## JPongo (Jul 12, 2011)

Only Nagato is kage level.


----------



## Forlong (Jul 12, 2011)

Hardly.  Hidan, Zetsu, and Deidara are the only ones that could be Elite Jounin level.  The rest are at least boarder-line Kage level.


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## CA182 (Jul 12, 2011)

Forlong said:


> Hardly.  Hidan, Zetsu, and Deidara are the only ones that could be Elite Jounin level.  The rest are at least boarder-line Kage level.



I agree with Hidan and zetsu, However Deidara is probably better than most elite jounin's. He managed to _capture_ Gaara in the middle of the desert. I don't think people give that feat enough credit.

So many people seem to hate admitting Gaara is kage level, I've yet to understand why.

Also C4 is a jutsu that very few ninja can deal with. (Before someone says anyone with lightning can counter that. Sasuke only countered it because Deidara didn't simply begin the battle with it, and he had the sharingan.)


----------



## Raidoton (Jul 12, 2011)

CA182 said:


> I agree with Hidan and zetsu, However Deidara is probably better than most elite jounin's. He managed to _capture_ Gaara in the middle of the desert. I don't think people give that feat enough credit.


Yeah, Deidara has a lot of feats which show that he is kage level. How he escaped Team Kakashi *and* Team Gai *without hands*, almost killing them, was pretty impressive by itself!


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## Akitō (Jul 12, 2011)

I've never really liked this entire "Kage-level" idea (it's probably necessary, though), because it's such a broad spectrum of strengths. On one hand, you have Tsunade, who I'd classify as potentially a little weaker than Kakuzu, and on the other hand, you have Hashirama, Sarutobi, and Minato, who have all been hyped consistently to be some of the strongest ninja the world has even seen. That being said, I do think it's better to have a few larger tiers, rather than numerous small ones (I'll talk about that later). 

I have always thought that the definition of "Kage-level" is surpassing the weakest known Kage, but you can also say that it's surpassing the average "level" of the Kage. The first one is more logical, in my opinion, because the weakest Kage is what defines the "Kage-level". If the weakest Kage isn't as strong as the average strength of a Kage, then does that mean that he/she isn't "Kage-level"? That wouldn't really make sense, because he/she _is_ a Kage. 

It's rather difficult to accurately determine the weakest Kage's strength, because we don't know of many Kage outside of the five Hokage. I'm just going to use Tsunade as an example, and unsubstantially claim that she's the weakest Kage (there's no real evidence that supports this, though). 

I would definitely say that with more than 20 meters separating Tsunade and Deidara, Deidara would have the clear edge. She isn't a versatile fighter, so whenever someone can get out of her range of attack, she's finished. Deidara's a classic example of an individual that can fully exploit this weakness due to his air-superiorty fighting style.  Does it imply that Deidara's on a similar level to Tsunade, and in the process, the Kage? I think so. Does this mean that Deidara's automatically _stronger_ than Tsunade? No, not necessarily.

Being stronger than someone is not about being able to beat them. If a character is stronger than another, it means that they can beat a larger proportion of the shinobi population than them. It doesn't mean anything about whether or not they can beat the other. You can be stronger than someone but not be able to beat them.

Sasori and Kakuzu is a good example, in my opinion. I count Sasori as being stronger and being able to beat more people that Kakuzu would lose to than vice versa. However, because of Doton: Domu, Sasori would lose to Kakuzu. Sasori is stronger, but he couldn't beat Kakuzu.

Moving on, I'm not particularly a fan of splitting each tier up so specifically, because as you near the upper caliber fighters, so much depends on the strengths and weaknesses of each individual, rather than just their overall strength. If you have tiers like "legendary kage", "high kage", "medium kage", and so on, you start to have characters that can beat certain individuals that are two to three tiers higher than them. That's indicative of an awkward tier list. 

I personally believe that there's just one big "high-tier". And yes, that equates to both Deidara and Pain being in the same tier. Does that mean that I think that they're near even in strength? No, not at all, but it does mean that Deidara _may_ be able to defeat people that Pain can't. Choosing those two characters isn't very fair to my list though, because those two resemble the opposite ends of the tier (or close to it). If I put Deidara in a lower tier, then you'd have some people in a higher tier than Deidara, even though they wouldn't be able to scratch him. It wouldn't be accurate, in my mind.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 12, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> Yeah, Deidara has a lot of feats which show that he is kage level. How he escaped Team Kakashi *and* Team Gai *without hands*, almost killing them, was pretty impressive by itself!



Well its not that hard to get away when you are fighting an opponents who can't fly.


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## seastone (Jul 12, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Well its not that hard to get away when you are fighting an opponents who can't fly.



The impressive thing actaully is that he that he made a switch with an explosive clone and himself without either team noticing despite the Sharingan and Byakugan.

The explosive clone that could have killed everyone is an added bonus.


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## Turrin (Jul 12, 2011)

Akitō said:


> I've never really liked this entire "Kage-level" idea (it's probably necessary, though), because it's such a broad spectrum of strengths. On one hand, you have Tsunade, who I'd classify as potentially a little weaker than Kakuzu, and on the other hand, you have Hashirama, Sarutobi, and Minato, who have all been hyped consistently to be some of the strongest ninja the world has even seen. That being said, I do think it's better to have a few larger tiers, rather than numerous small ones (I'll talk about that later).
> 
> I have always thought that the definition of "Kage-level" is surpassing the weakest known Kage, but you can also say that it's surpassing the average "level" of the Kage. The first one is more logical, in my opinion, because the weakest Kage is what defines the "Kage-level". If the weakest Kage isn't as strong as the average strength of a Kage, then does that mean that he/she isn't "Kage-level"? That wouldn't really make sense, because he/she _is_ a Kage.
> 
> ...


Since this is the first logical post I have seen in this thread for awhile I'll respond to it. The problem with your logic Akito is that Tsunade have never actually fought all out in the manga so to put her up against someone like Deidara who has had far more panel time, of course she doesn't stack up. But that is hardly a fair comparison. Tsunade vs Deidara is essentially the same thing as saying Tsunade with 2 chapters to show of her abilities whilst handicapped and rusty vs Deidara who had a full power fight against Hebi Sasuke and fights against several other Ninja.

Until Tsunade gets her all out fight to show her abilities she should not be used as a measuring stick to determine if certain shinobi are Kage Class or if people really feel compelled to do so they should measure shinobi against her hype as one of the Legendary Three Ninja, a title which garners such respect and prestige that the elders believed having someone with this title as their Hokage would help safeguard the village from foreign attack, that Kisame stated the Title of 7 Mist Swordsmen and Konoha's Uchiha Clan pale in comparison, that Ebisu stated that to defeat one three legendary ninja you need another of the three legendary ninja. Or Jiriaya's hype of saying that there are still none who can stand shoulder to shoulder with Tsunade in regards to battle or medical Ninjutsu. Or the Data-book's hype:_ "She who was adulated as the Three Sannins, the strongest ninja who put fear into the hearts of enemies far away, is once more revived!"_ _"Are the only ones who can fight against the three sannins the sannins themselves?"_. 

Now of course some of this hype goes to far as kishi is one to do with hyping his characters, but Tsunade as a legendary sannin has been portrayed a shinobi whose much stronger than the likes of Deidara, so he'd loose out based on hype at least and hypes all we got to go on if we are to compare them considering like I said Tsunade has not had any chance to go all out in this manga. 

Personally I believe Ninja like Deidara, Kakuzu, Konan, Hidan, and perhaps Kisame (I'll admit Kisame's a bit more debatable than the others) are not in the same league as the Kages because none of them can match up to a Kage Class Shinobi who we have actually seen fight all out at full power, I.E. Jiriaya, Orochimaru, Minato, Yondaime Raikage, Danzo, and maybe we can throw in Yondaime Kazekage and Current Gaara (not suna arc Gaara), if not now soon. 

Also they can't match up hype wise to the Kages we haven't seen fight all out, but have actually had enough screen time to receive hype. For example Deidara vs Nindaime and Sandaime Tsuchikage. Deidara has a powerful Iwagakuru Kekkai Genkai, mastery of doton, and his best attack destroys shit at a cellular level, but Onoki/Muu have the legendary Kekkai Genkai expansion which is hyped to only be beat by another person with a Kekkai Genkai expansion, mastery of doton, Katon, and fuuton, and they're strongest attack can destroy shit at the atomic level. 

The Kages are simply portrayed as stronger than every other Shinobi in the manga besides Orochimaru, Tsunade, Jiriaya who held the title of Legendary Sannin which is equally as prestigious as that of Kage, the shinobi  who defeated the legendary sannin in the past (Pain, Itachi, and Perhaps Prime Hanzo), and the Main Characters (Sasuke/Naruto), the Main Villains (Madara and Kabuto), and the select few people who have actually clashed with and equaled a full strength, true Kage class shinobi (B and Sasori).

There's a reason why Kakuzu and Deidara are being taken out by Chuunin/Jonin, but the Kages need to be taken out by other Kages.


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## HakuGaara (Jul 13, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Most Akatsuki are just Elite Jonin



I've been saying this for years and years but most people think they are all kage and sannin killers


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## raizen28 (Jul 13, 2011)

i dont think killer bee is kage level either


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## Kisame3rd14 (Jul 13, 2011)

Raidoton said:


> Kisame and Deidara are clearly Kage lvl. Hidan isn't, but Kakuzu and Konan are close to kage lvl.



I don't see any proof in the manga to confirm your opinion on Konan.


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## SmarterThanYou (Jul 13, 2011)

This whole thread is flawed.

Akatsuki are *NOT* just Elite Jonin. 
(exception of Hidan, he is too one dimensional, and we don't know much about Zetsu)

Nagato, Itachi, Konan, Kakuzu, Deidara, Kisame, Sasori and Madara are some of the most elite ninjas we have been introduced to.


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## joshhookway (Jul 13, 2011)

deidara is definitely


----------



## Empathy (Jul 13, 2011)

This is pretty stupid. I doubt Kishimoto intended to have a bunch of Elite Jounin as his Main Antagonist group of the entire series. The Akatuski(or at least most of them) are the high tiers of the series, the same thing like other Kages or Sannin.


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## Empathy (Jul 13, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Hed still beat them
> 
> As would A



How does A beat them?



> Gaara can create an insane amount of sand even when not in the desert
> As shown in SRA
> 
> And Gaara can create as much as sand as Kisame can water
> They'd both stalemate there



The water, should slow down the sand, turning it into a mud like substance, where it can be torn threw easily. Added to the fact that he'd absorb the Chakra from the sand.



> Even w/o Shakuku
> Gaara's dad thought Shakuku was responsible for the Desert Avalanche



A testament to Gaara's ability. If even without the Ichibi, he can still rival his power, how is he not Kage level?



> Anyways Gaara can put up a fight against these guys and maybe beat them in some scenarios and vice versa
> 
> And this is irrelevant anyways
> 
> ...



Then I'm not seeing the problem here. Kage level means being able to contend with other Kages, and fight evenly with them. If they can defeat some Kages or fight evenly with them, then they're Kage level. It's the entire point.



> It'll take a lot more time than that for him to reach the skies
> Which he will need to do to have a chance to beat the Raikage
> 
> The bird has to first be formed
> ...



Anybody can make the process sound long, by nitpicking at everything. When it actually consists of Deidara grabbing some clay in his pouch, and infusing it with his Chakra, molding it. Then he just preforms a handseal and mounts it. He's done so before, while free-falling. The process doesn't take long at all. A won't be able to blitz Deidara with only this window, especially with no long distance blitz feats, starting in base.



> My point is that RM Naruto is so fast
> 
> Not only could Kisame not even see nor percieve him coming(and Bee only saw a flash)
> 
> Samehada wasn't even fast enough to absorb the shroud



Not being able to keep up with RM Naruto, isn't any testament to lack of ability. He's kept up with speedsters in battle before, with Killer Bee and _Hachimon_ Gai.



> V2 Raikage's isn't slower by a significant margin
> And he's more powerful
> 
> Kisame even being mobile wouldn't be able to react to V2 A
> ...



It doesn't matter how much faster Version Two A is. He's going to absorb his shroud by contact, leaving him in base. 



> Not by much



Did I say it was by much? 



> Raikage's Lightning Armor allows him to neatly cut through limbs
> Kisame would likely fall to a V2 Raigyaku Suihei
> Since he hasn't shown he could react to something like that
> 
> He'd get decapitated



This would work, if Samehada didn't absorb his shroud. Shroudless A, can't cut through anything with his attacks.



> But just having haxxed abilities doesn't make an Elite Jonin a Kage Level



Well I should have phrased that better. Having haxxxed or broken abilities, that can contend with the ability of a Kage. 



> Many Kage Levels can counter and deal with the haxxed abilities of Deidara and Kisame



Name 'em. 



> So someone who got beat by Hidan is going to be Kage Level?



The fight was off-panel, we don't know how she was defeated. She was flaming Nibi made of fire, I'm not sure how he would get blood. It was likely the combined efforts of Hidan and Kakuzu(who we agree is Kage level).



> I believe he is



What feats has he displayed that warrants him able to contend with Kisame or Deidara? He certainly can't fight evenly against Gaara in the desert or Killer Bee.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 13, 2011)

> He just doesn't have the haxxed abilities of Deidara and Kisame



What feats or abilities match up with there's? 



> Suna was unstable
> Suna was in bad shape even before Gaara became Kazekage



I still call bullshit. Gaara no longer has the Ichibi, and is still leading the village. He's shown he can protect it from invaders, and even with the loss of Shukaku, his power is still compared to his. Gaara's the General of the Joint Shinobi Alliance, they wouldn't put someone not stronger enough to fit the position. Gaara's, with Onoki is fighting on par with 4 Kages at once. 



> Gaara was the strongest ninja Suna had to offer when he was named Kazekage
> 
> Doesn't mean he was Kage Level



Why? Because you say so? Being named Kage, warrants at least Low Kage level. Just like being named Chuunin warrants at least Low Chuunin level. If the plot says they're Kage level, then they're Kage level. Kages are Kage level by virtue of being an actual Kage. 



> Who else in Konoha was as strong as Kakashi and could actually lead a village at the time he was mentioned?
> 
> I'll wait
> Kakashi was the best fit
> That's all



That's my original point you're just shooting back at me. Konoha's instability, had nothing to do with Kakashi's almost being named Hokage on two separate occasions. 



> I'm saying under the circumstances their villages were under
> 
> They were the best choices for Kage at the time



His feats are something we can debate and disagree on all we want, with our opinions(though his feats alone should warrant him Kage level). But by actually almost being named Hokage twice, and mentioned on other occasions to make an excellent Hokage, even recognized by the Sannin, warrants him Kage level. 

The same way he took off his arm



> Deidara wasn't handling him with C1 until he exhausted his chakra protecting the village from C3



Then what do you call him combating him with _C1_, and defeating him with _C1_?



> And how will he drop C3/C4 when Gaara's in his range
> That would be collateral damage



Gaara was stationary, even in the air. Deidara could have elevated higher out of range, and dropped them on him, but those would kill him rather than capture.



> None of Deidara's straightforward attacks worked though



Your point being?



> I'd say they're on the same level
> And a fight between them could go either way



Not really a fair assessment, when Kakashi is Deidara's worst matchup and Gai is Kisame's worst matchup.



> I worded it wrong
> 
> I meant being named as a Kage doesn't necessarily mean that your power is Kage Level



Kage level means being able to contend with other Kages. That's what the name was made up for. The people not actually named Kage level, are the ones who are compared to the actual other official Kages as a measuring stick, to determine whether or not they are Kage level. There are no Kages with High Chuunin or Low Jounin capabilities. 



> I'm not sure if people were aware at how strong Danzo and Gaara were when they made them Kages of their respectives villages
> 
> But the fact is that the villages needed a Kage
> And those two were the best choices at the time



Their feats still justify them as Kage level. Gaara's(along with Onoki) fighting on par with four Edo Kages, and seems to be finishing his dad.



> Thats right
> 
> You said it
> They have to make the best choice for who to be next Kage



Was there any better one?



> All Kage candidates are conviniently chosen based on village status, ninja status, or political status



Yeah, they can choose weaklings to be their leader, just as long as they have sufficient status. That's there only basis. 



> Gaara: Suna was the weakest of 5 villages, had no Kage, lost a war, Gaara had Shakaku and was the villages trump card and possibly strongest nin in the village



Still warrants him as Kage level. I suppose the Edo Kages, he's currently fighting aren't actually Kage level, since they're being handled by a Jounin level nin.



> Kakashi: Village was in shambles, previous Kage was unable to hold seat, was the strongest ninja in the village(besides Naruto) who could run a village, Konoha needed a Kage immediately



My point exactly.



> Jiriaya: Original candidate for 5th Hokage title,Leaf recovering from Invansion, previous Kage died, Konoha needed to restore order, Jiriaya was the best choice of many choices, holder of Sannin title and clearly Kage Level



What the fuck? I'm not evening trying to argue Jiraiya not being Kage level. 



> Ok, here



Yeah, those are the only qualifications needed. You don't really need to be capable of defending and leading the village, and doing what's best for it. You just need to be politically savvy. Who ever's the most politically savvy earns the title Naruto's really been training all this time for nothing. When he really should have been studying politics, and increasing his political know how.  



> They wanted to monitor and keep Shakaku under control
> 
> Gaara as the village's trump card was the most logical choice



Gaara no longer has the Ichibi, and is still being compared to his power, showing that he hasn't weakened from the loss of their 'trump.' Why would they have a Jounin level kid, whose never experienced war, lost to the Akatsuki, and they consider unstable, as their Shinobi General. The village now believe in Gaara, along with the rest of the Shinobi world, with his speech unifying them.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 14, 2011)

RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:


> Deidara and Kisame can solo most of the Villages, like hell their not kage level.





Deidara and Kisame can't solo a village 
Only Pain can do that




Empathy said:


> How does Kakashi even compare to Kisame? Gai was a terrible matchup for Kisame, just as Kakashi is a terrible matchup for Deidara. Kisame can defeat Kakashi rather handily. Same with Deidara and Gai. Added to the fact that Deidara already proved much greater than Gaara, and I believe Kisame can match and defeat Gaara as well.



Kakashi is every bit as strong as Kisame and Deidara are

He can use diversionary tactics, bunshin feints, and genjutsu to set up attacks to beat any of those guys

Same with Gai and the Gates




> Like A is, right?



He's more well rounded than Deidara and Kisame are

High level speed, Superhuman strength, Incredible taijutsu, Bijuu-level stamina, and a ninjutsu that supplements his taijutsu to the utmost limits

He has more to offer as a Kage Level



> Jiraiya never trumped anything. And Hebi Sasuke didn't win on versatility. He won because he had Sharingan and Raiton affinity. So he could diffuse Deidara's bombs. No 'versatility' bullshit played any part in it.



He almosted trumped Kisame with toad mouth 

Sasuke's versatility allowed him to find many solutions to Deidara's attacks

Chidori Senbon for C1 bugs
Chidori Spear for C2 Dragon
Cs2 for flight
Summon/S/T jutsu for C0




> Then, why can't you provide your reasoning to why you believe so?



Because it's pointless in KL
And it doesn't really matter to me

I believe Kakazu is superior and would beat the both of them in a fight

If this were the BD, however...



> Kakuzu didn't steamroll anything. He was matched by Kakashi(who I think is Kage level, but was officially a Jounin). Also, how Kakuzu handles two completely different characters doesn't warrant him stronger than Kisame. Kakuzu is a Ninjutsu type, the type Kisame thrives on. He'd take all of his Chakra, and destroy his hearts. Kakuzu has nothing to overcome Kisame's durability and regeneration. Ninjutsu types against Kisame are already set to lose.



Kakazu almost killed him twice 
And Kakashi could only land a surprise attack on him

How is that matched??

And I don't see Gai even coming close to beating Kakazu

And Kakazu would have the advantage in CQC combat with Jiongu and Domu, he could easily disarm Kisame w/ Samehada with Jiongu, he has the advantage in Ninjutsu which he can overwhelm Kisame with, and he has the long range advantage and seems to be smarter than Kisame

Once Kisame gets tangled in threads, it's over
He heart will belong to Kakazu




> Yes, he is. Kisame's fighting style revolves around taking the opponent's Chakra, and growing stronger in proportion to them getting weaker. Against Gai, he couldn't employ this. He relies solely on Taijutsu. He even thought his _Hirudora_ was a Ninjutsu, and attempted to absorb it. Added to the fact that he was already injured and lacked a sword. Explain to me how he isn't?



Because a lot people are a lot worse matchups than Gai

The only ways to beat Kisame are to bypass his regeneration(Hanzo, Sasori, Pain), kill him instantly(Deidara, Minato, Onoki, Pain, Jiriaya) or incapicitate him for a killing blow (Sasuke, Itachi, A)

and you have to able to avoid his ninjutsu (Onoki, Itachi, Minato, A, Pain)

I just don't see Gai is a worse matchup than any of these guys




> Those aren't the reasons why he was such a bad matchup for Kisame.



He's a bad matchup for anyone who can't avoid/survive/tank Gates

I don't see how that makes him anymore dangerous to Kisame than Minato or Pain



> When did that happen?



Here and here



> Yeah, not like it could've healed him or Gai, or _Suiro Sameodori_ wouldn't have made a difference or anything.



What could _Suiro Sameodori_ have done to Gai?

The guy repels water in the Sixth Gate, let alone Seventh

And Samehada needs a chakra pool to heal Kisame



> What's there to back up? Sasuke didn't completely own shit. He was almost killed.



Deidara needed a suicidial move just to draw
That's prove right there that Sasuke owned him




> It's not an excuse. He won because he was able to diffuse his bombs. This is made an incredibly clear. Don't know how I can make it any clearer. I don't care if he's had it since he was in the womb, it's still Deidara's ultimate combo weakness, don't pretend like it isn't.



There are many ninja who can beat Deidara without diffusing his bombs.




> Haha, yeah he totally could've survived _C4_ without diffusing any bombs, I'm sure.



Why not?
He avoided them just fine




> The manga made it clear that he won because he can diffuse his bombs. If he were stronger and didn't need to diffuse them, then he wouldn't have done so if it wasn't necessary, and Kishimoto wouldn't have written it.



See above.




> What's your point? Almost being killed is almost being killed.



Big difference between almost being killed by regular jutsus and almost being killed by suicide jutsus

Even Madara, Orochimaru, and Sasuke could've died by suicide jutsus]

Deidara could kill just about anybody with C0
Minato/Sandaime could kill just about anybody with Shiki Funjin
Danzo could kill just about anybody w/ Reverse Four Symbols Seal
Anko could kill just about anybody w/ Twin Snake Sacrifice(albeit she's close enough)

Give a Jonin(or Chunnin) any of these jutsus and they could probably kill/defeat a Kage Level

Suicide jutsus change the rules

Deidara could kill any Kage Level with C0
Does that take away ownage Sasuke gave to Deidara? No.



> Yes, it does matter. Yeah, it's not like everyone who's won a battle in this manga has always been stronger than the person they defeated.



Sasuke is clearly stronger than Deidara




> 'Prep' consists of reaching into his pouch and grabbing some clay with his mouths. If he can evade Gaara's entire desert, than he can evade some Ninjutsu.



Gaara wasn't attacking all out like Kakazu will be 
The AoE of Kakazu elementals would be more than enough to at least knock him off the birds if not kill him

Hell, Sasuke's shruiken trick almost hit him the first time and landed the next




> Only his Fuuton one has displayed such an ability.



Nope.



> Kakuzu would need Doujutsu to distinguish it's Doton nature and know to diffuse it with Raiton. Never mind that a linear beam, with Deidara's aerial maneuverability and his bombs maneuverability can easily find ways to move around such an attack. Deidara would try to conceal his Jutsu's weakness, instead of letting Kakuzu figure such a thing out.



I'm sure Kakuzu knows what a Doton hand seal looks like

Even if he doesn't, he can still snipe w/ Gian and Atsugai


----------



## Kisame (Jul 15, 2011)

...Wait


Puppetry said:


> That's a blatant no limits fallacy. "Kisame didn't state there was a limit, therefore, there is none!"


What? Can you read? That is not a no limits fallacy; he never made such fallacy, in fact, *he did the opposite by pointing out the limit*


			
				RumbleKing Yoshitsune said:
			
		

> Because kisame never said their was a limit to how much water he can make, and i see no reason *besides chakra* which he has plenty of.





> What are talking about here?


You post pretty intelligently, yet you couldn't connect this with his previous sentence?


> and i see no reason besides chakra which he has plenty of that would stop him from making water.


..I mean..the guy's English isn't perfect but really? "What are we talking about"? Attempting to ridicule the guy by claiming he's changing the subject/lost his focus...when all he did was press Enter a couple times..That's dreadfully condescending, who are you trying to dissemble?


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## Missing_Nin (Jul 16, 2011)

Turrin said:


> Deidara will not beat any of the Kages w/o extreme advantages.



yea, like diedara fighting gaara in the fucking desert w/o a lot of his clays lol.


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## Ruby Moon (Jul 16, 2011)

I highly doubt that all the Akatsuki were Elite Jounin. 

Pein could be judged to have the level of Kage, but being the one with mastery of all 5 elemental chakras, he'd have to be above Kage. 

Itachi is strongest out of all the members below Pein and Konan (whose stats we have yet to know). 

Kisame had the strength and stamina of a Bijuu. He's not a normal, run-of-the-mill S-Class missing nin. 

Kakuzu is a heart-snatching, cold-hearted mercenary nearly as old as Madara. He's accumulated years of experience. He defeated and killed the leaders of his village. He's no slouch.


----------



## Karman (Jul 16, 2011)

Kage level is a myth. When you reach jounin strength, the measuring stick ends there and the power levels become a little grayer. A jounin could be an Uchiha (user of an advanced bloodline) or a Sarutobi (who appear to simply be a talented family of average shinobi). There's little measure of equality when one compares the likes of Kurenai to someone like Gai or Kakashi.

I agree with Shikaku when he suggests that people just end up on "a whole other level" when they start dabbling in tailed beasts, advanced bloodlines, and kekkei genkai. And yes, on occasion a genius will have the insight and skill to devise Hiraishin, Rasenshuriken, Dead Demon Consuming Seal, Kirin, Edo Tensei, etc. 

I was like "holy crap" when Kitsuchi pulled the mountain-crusher. I was truly impressed with big waves of sand and the bone that shatters steal. But Akatsuki were filled with shinobi of the "oh sweet jesus" factor. Everyone has unique abilities that take figuring out but Akatsuki had abilities that broke the mold in unconventional ways. 

There are people that can endure, evade, out maneuver, and even tank a Raikiri. There aren't too many that take a death blow and stand right back up. Hidan and Kakuzu can do just that and the first time someone sees it, they'll be damned if they know why. Kakuzu had to tell super-elite Kage candidate Kakashi how his power worked. Hidan had to be outfoxed by one of the best strategists in the world. 

And hell, Sasori has a poison attribute so broken that only two or three people can overcome it. Orochimaru survived nearly half a dozen of attempts on his life by some of the strongest people the leaf could throw at him and it took one of the most broken abilities (Totsuka is one hell of a secret) to seal the deal. Kisame looked down the barrel of a perfect Hachibi jin and could have won if his orders hadn't been to lose. Deidara had three nukes in his arsenal.

Compare them to the generals of the joint shinobi army...okay. But JUST elite jounin....no.



SmarterThanYou said:


> This whole thread is flawed.
> 
> Akatsuki are *NOT* just Elite Jonin.
> (exception of Hidan, he is too one dimensional, and we don't know much about Zetsu)
> ...



Measuring Zetsu as a shinobi isn't appropriate. Zetsu's a weapon. He should be measured against Susanoo, Edo Tensei, or Jiongu Masks.


----------



## Empathy (Jul 16, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Kakashi is every bit as strong as Kisame and Deidara are
> 
> He can use diversionary tactics, bunshin feints, and genjutsu to set up attacks to beat any of those guys
> 
> Same with Gai and the Gates


Regardless because I believe all four of them to be Kage level. But Kisame grossly overpowers Kakashi. His Ninjutsu is far too weak compared to Kisame's. And diversionary tactics or bunshin feints are detected from Kisame or Samehada being a sensor. Kakashi doesn't have much to really put Kisame down. The only thing he has as a threat toward him would be _Kamui_. And he's likely to die before he ever gets a chance to use it. He had to almost be killed twice to even consider using it against Kakuzu. Genjutsu is his only solid chance, and having been partners with Itachi, knows to avoid Genjutsu. With Gai against Deidara, him and his entire team would have been killed by armless, clayless, exhausted Deidara, if Kakashi wasn't there. He's likely to fall succeptable to his Minefield. If he's hasn't activated _Hachimon_ by the time _C2_ is out, he can be killed by a direct hit from a missle, since he lacks a proper defense and durability. His only ranged attacks would be _Asa Kujaku_ and _Hirudora_. Both of which Deidara may be able to fly out of range. And _C3_ and _C4_ are game-enders. 



> He's more well rounded than Deidara and Kisame are
> 
> High level speed, Superhuman strength, Incredible taijutsu, Bijuu-level stamina, and a ninjutsu that supplements his taijutsu to the utmost limits
> 
> He has more to offer as a Kage Level



Debatable with Chakra abosorbtion, flight, Bijuu level Chakra(like A has), Kenjutsu, ability to fight at air sea or land, both can Doton underground, large AoE Ninjutsu, and destructive capacity ect. Just pointing out that well roundedness and verasitlity a Kage level makes not.



> He almosted trumped Kisame with toad mouth



He could have countered with _Suiton: Bakusui Shoha_ or just rip through it with Samehada.



> Sasuke's versatility allowed him to find many solutions to Deidara's attacks
> 
> Chidori Senbon for C1 bugs
> Chidori Spear for C2 Dragon
> ...




The first two involve Raiton diffusion. He countered _Chidori Eiso_ at first by keeping out of range. And I doubt he'd fall for it again. He stopped flight at first by clipping his wings. And the last one was one of the most famous examples of PNJ. Regardless, he could never have won without Sharingan and Raiton, to diffuse his bombs. That's the reason he won, not because of some 'versatility' bullshit.



> Because it's pointless in KL
> And it doesn't really matter to me
> 
> I believe Kakazu is superior and would beat the both of them in a fight
> ...



It doesn't matter where it is, you should still provide your reasoning to why you believe this.



> Kakazu almost killed him twice
> And Kakashi could only land a surprise attack on him
> 
> How is that matched??



Kakashi was the main fighter with backup, he was keeping up with Kakuzu. Albeit losing, but matching him in battle none the less. And surprise attacks or not, still count.



> And I don't see Gai even coming close to beating Kakazu



That's because _Doton: Domu_ would protect from his attacks.



> And Kakazu would have the advantage in CQC combat with Jiongu and Domu, he could easily disarm Kisame w/ Samehada with Jiongu, he has the advantage in Ninjutsu which he can overwhelm Kisame with, and he has the long range advantage and seems to be smarter than Kisame



_Doton: Domu_ can be absorbed similar to shrouds. _Jiongu_ can be ripped through with Samehada. Kisame's has the advantage over any Ninjutsu specialist. His Ninjutsu, desptie Kakuzu's being more versatiliy, grossly overpowers his. Even if he is disarmed, Samehada would just come back to him. Lol.



> Once Kisame gets tangled in threads, it's over
> He heart will belong to Kakazu



Kisame can cut or rip the _Jiongu_ tendrils apart.



> Because a lot people are a lot worse matchups than Gai
> 
> The only ways to beat Kisame are to bypass his regeneration(Hanzo, Sasori, Pain), kill him instantly(Deidara, Minato, Onoki, Pain, Jiriaya) or incapicitate him for a killing blow (Sasuke, Itachi, A)
> 
> ...



Those are all just ways to defeat him. How's being able to 'kill someone instantly' a testament to poor matchups. The same goes for incapacitating him. The only one on the ones listed Kisame's surely stronger than would be Hanzo. He can defeat Sasori, with _Suiton: Senjikizame_. He can also beat A, since he's without his shroud. And shroudless A isn't strong or at least not strong enough to defeat Kisame. His only feat would be blitzing a weak White Zetsu, before he was Yamato powered.


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## Empathy (Jul 16, 2011)

> He's a bad matchup for anyone who can't avoid/survive/tank Gates



That's not a bad matchup, that's just him being stronger than his opponent. Gai serves as a natural counter toward Kisame's repitore and fighting style. That's all there is to it.



> I don't see how that makes him anymore dangerous to Kisame than Minato or Pain



Hmm? 



> Here and here



The first one was during battle, I'm speaking of post their battle. The second one is not him healing Kisame. Samehada had betrayed Kisame by then. 



> What could _Suiro Sameodori_ have done to Gai?
> 
> The guy repels water in the Sixth Gate, let alone Seventh



Has it ever done with such a large mountain sized amount of water?



> And Samehada needs a chakra pool to heal Kisame



Gai has Chakra, he just doesn't use it. He prefers to rely on Taijutsu.



> Deidara needed a suicidial move just to draw
> That's prove right there that Sasuke owned him



What's your point? And anyone can replace 'defeating' with 'owning.' Fact of the matter is, Sasuke was almost killed. And would have beem killed if he couldn't diffuse his bombs and if not for the plot.



> There are many ninja who can beat Deidara without diffusing his bombs.



Not saying there aren't. I'm saying Deidara can matchup with some of the Kages and defeat some as well. And his abilities can contend with that of a Kage, rather than him being Jounin level.



> Why not?
> He avoided them just fine
> 
> See above.



And then, he walked right into a trap that would have killed if he couldn't diffuse his bombs.



> Big difference between almost being killed by regular jutsus and almost being killed by suicide jutsus
> 
> Even Madara, Orochimaru, and Sasuke could've died by suicide jutsus]
> 
> ...



That's because they're Kage level Jutsus(sans Anko). Madara already warped through _C0_. I doubt Deidara would need _C0_ to kill Orochimaru, when _C4_ or even _C3_ can suffice so nicely.



> Does that take away ownage Sasuke gave to Deidara? No.
> 
> Sasuke is clearly stronger than Deidara



Any 'ownage' just equates to defeating barely alive. If Sasuke were stronger, then he would have not needed to diffuse his bombs. Sasuke was a terrible matchup, for having flight, Raiton affinity, and Sharingan that does take away from some of his victory. Poor matchups are poor matchups, a weaker water type Pokemon can still defeat a stronger fire type Pokemon. Sasuke wouldn't have survived and would have been killed if he hadn't been able to diffuse his bombs, meaning Deidara the stronger of the two. Regardless, I do believe Hebi Sasuke as well to be Kage level, from absorbing and taking over Orochimaru.



> Gaara wasn't attacking all out like Kakazu will be
> The AoE of Kakazu elementals would be more than enough to at least knock him off the birds if not kill him
> 
> Hell, Sasuke's shruiken trick almost hit him the first time and landed the next



Sasuke's range and Kakuzu's range are different. He'd elevate higher against him. Kakuzu's Ninjutsu certainly doesn't cover more AoE, than Gaara's entire desert. Even if he was knocked off his bird(highly unlikely occurence) he's shown he can make birds while free-falling at terminal velocity. 



> Nope.



Yup.

It's made clear, on the SFX that they were jumping. The masks(sans the Fuuton one) have only shown superb jumping ability.



> I'm sure Kakuzu knows what a Doton hand seal looks like
> 
> Even if he doesn't, he can still snipe w/ Gian and Atsugai



Deidara doesn't use the snake handseal for all his Jutsu, and the Sharingan is what allows it to be read. Even if he could, Deidara can easily conceal them, up in the air. Deidara can evade an entire desert but he can't avoid a Fuuton Jutsu which laid waste to some trees and a linear Raition? _Fuuton: Atsugai_ lacks high killing capacity anyhow, and at best it would send him off his bird, which he's shown he can make a new one in mid-air. The masks don't have any particular durability, if they're hit by any explosive(especilally ones that cover much AoE) they'll be destroyed. Like you mentioned earlier with Kisame, Deidara can kill Kakuzu instantly as well with the usage of _C4_ or _C3_ which would kill Kakuzu and destroy all of his hearts simultaneously.


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## Hokage (Jul 16, 2011)

Akatsuki were made up of elements which varied in terms of strength and talent. You can't really compare between lets say Nagato/Itachi and Hidan/Konan. I would say

'god' level - Madara, Nagato

Above Kage level - Itachi, Kabuto

Kage level - Orochimaru, Kisame

Elite jounin level - Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Konan, Hidan, Zetsu.

Anyway I can't see how one can categorize with Kage level. Tsunade and Minato are/were both hokages but its pretty evident that the difference between them is enormous.


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## wibisana (Jul 16, 2011)

finally I visit in here...
btw I dont really read all post but

most Akatsuki technically Jounin level. but their strength beyond jounin level. reach/surpass Kage level. Nagato is technically a Kage in Rain village. other "just" jounin that recruited or joined. 
oh I am forget that there is Genin in Akatsuki and he is strongest alive beside Madara.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 16, 2011)

Empathy said:


> How does A beat them?



The question is how do the keep up with A?




> The water, should slow down the sand, turning it into a mud like substance, where it can be torn threw easily. Added to the fact that he'd absorb the Chakra from the sand.



The sand should make the water useless as well 
And know Kisame has to stand on quicksand

Gaara could just let him sink or bury him




> A testament to Gaara's ability. If even without the Ichibi, he can still rival his power, how is he not Kage level?



Because it's not just about raw power




> Then I'm not seeing the problem here. Kage level means being able to contend with other Kages, and fight evenly with them. If they can defeat some Kages or fight evenly with them, then they're Kage level. It's the entire point.



You're saying these guys are Kage Level because they can one-shot bijuus,  blow up villages, manipulate huge amounts of sands makes them Kage Level

That's nice and all 
But when it comes down to it

They've shown thay can compete with other Elite Jonin
But they're just outclassed by Kage Level ninja(even if it's barely)



> Anybody can make the process sound long, by nitpicking at everything. When it actually consists of Deidara grabbing some clay in his pouch, and infusing it with his Chakra, molding it. Then he just preforms a handseal and mounts it. He's done so before, while free-falling. The process doesn't take long at all. A won't be able to blitz Deidara with only this window, especially with no long distance blitz feats, starting in base.



It doesn't take him long at all to turn on his shroud

From there, he could get Deidara before he reaches a great enough altitude to avoid CQC




> Not being able to keep up with RM Naruto, isn't any testament to lack of ability. He's kept up with speedsters in battle before, with Killer Bee and _Hachimon_ Gai.



Neither are as fast as a V2 A or RM Naruto(who already blitzed him)

Hachimon Gai never tried to blitz Kisame
And Bee can be kept up with because he attacks in a linear fashion



> It doesn't matter how much faster Version Two A is. He's going to absorb his shroud by *contact*, leaving him in base.



Kisame has to swing Samehada in A's area to absorb the shroud
If he can't react to A, how will he absorb the shroud before he gets hits? 




> Did I say it was by much?



You tried to make it seem like there was a huge difference when I said he couldn't react to RM Naruto and then I also said A is in the same ballpark of speed



> This would work, if Samehada didn't absorb his shroud. Shroudless A, can't cut through anything with his attacks.



Kisame has to wield Samehada fast enough to block Raikage's blow
He hasn't shown he can react to speed of that calibre
He didnt absorb RM Naruto's shroud




> Well I should have phrased that better. Having haxxxed or broken abilities, that can contend with the ability of a Kage.



How do just having haxxed abilities make you Kage Level?

Even if they have haxxed abilities, Kage Level still have more versatility and are generally more skilled overall and have ways to counter haxxed abilities



> Name 'em.



Don't feel like it.
This isn't a BD thread

I'd have to explain sceanarios and usages of strategies

And I don't feel like explaining myself even more
In these already long, redundant posts



> The fight was off-panel, we don't know how she was defeated. She was flaming Nibi made of fire, I'm not sure how he would get blood. It was likely the combined efforts of Hidan and Kakuzu(who we agree is Kage level).



It's obvious that Hidan killed her

We don't see what Kakuzu did or if he even did anything at all to hurt Nibi



> What feats has he displayed that warrants him able to contend with Kisame or Deidara? He certainly can't fight evenly against Gaara in the desert or Killer Bee.



Being the bodygaurd of a Kage, Being a Division Commander of the Shinobi Alliance, Displaying Swordsmanship on par w/ a Seven Swordsmen in training, showing high profiency in ninjutsu with 2 elements, displaying greater profiency with his Kekkai Genkai(Ranton), being able to wield black lightning, and using 2 of the 5 Sacred treasures( a testament to his stamina)


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 16, 2011)

Empathy said:


> What feats or abilities match up with there's?


Read the statement 
I said he doesn't have haxxed abilities that match up with Deidara or Kisame

They aren't many who do
That why there are Elite Jonin

Darui, Kakashi, and Gai are right there with them 



> I still call bullshit. Gaara no longer has the Ichibi, and is still leading the village. He's shown he can protect it from invaders, and even with the loss of Shukaku, his power is still compared to his. Gaara's the General of the Joint Shinobi Alliance, they wouldn't put someone not stronger enough to fit the position. Gaara's, with Onoki is fighting on par with 4 Kages at once.



Covered in points below




> Why? Because you say so? Being named Kage, warrants at least Low Kage level. Just like being named Chuunin warrants at least Low Chuunin level. If the plot says they're Kage level, then they're Kage level. *Kages are Kage level by virtue of being an actual Kage*.



Strongest ninja in the village really isn't the same thing as being Kage Level

Being a Kage only warrants that you are best to lead a village 
Not that you are strong as an average (or even low end) kage

Unless you think Mei can compete with Minato and Hashirama



> That's my original point you're just shooting back at me. Konoha's instability, had nothing to do with Kakashi's almost being named Hokage on two separate occasions.



Yes, the hell it did

When this happened in Part I, where was Kakashi's name mentioned for Hokage?




> His feats are something we can debate and disagree on all we want, with our opinions(though his feats alone should warrant him Kage level). But by actually almost being named Hokage twice, and mentioned on other occasions to make an excellent Hokage, even recognized by the Sannin, warrants him Kage level.



Again, in the situations the village was in 
Kakashi was an excellent choice to be Hokage

Why do you think Kakashi was never even mentioned for Hokage in Part 1 when the Sannin were around?





> Then what do you call him combating him with _C1_, and defeating him with _C1_?



Not doing a damn thing to Gaara except when he needed to protect a village




> Gaara was stationary, even in the air. Deidara could have elevated higher out of range, and dropped them on him, but those would kill him rather than capture.



Gaara already proved he could block C3

He can counter C4 with Sand Sphere and Sensor Sand




> Your point being?



A fight where Gaara doesn't have to protect a village would end differently




> Not really a fair assessment, when Kakashi is Deidara's worst matchup and Gai is Kisame's worst matchup.



That's bullshit 
That would mean that a fight between these guy would be an uncompetitive one

And I don't get that vibe at all




> Kage level means being able to contend with other Kages. That's what the name was made up for. The people not actually named Kage level, are the ones who are compared to the actual other official Kages as a measuring stick, to determine whether or not they are Kage level. There are no Kages with High Chuunin or Low Jounin capabilities.



I agree here

But the village situation has something to do with who they pick to be Kage



> Their feats still justify them as Kage level. Gaara's(along with Onoki) fighting on par with four Edo Kages, and seems to be finishing his dad.



Those Edos aren't fightning at anywhere near full power

Sasori, Deidara and Hanzo's performance seem to justify that




> Was there any better one?



Nope. They were the best at the time
Doesn't mean they are actually Kage Level

Just fit to run a village




> Yeah, they can choose weaklings to be their leader, just as long as they have sufficient status. That's there only basis.



Now when the fuck did I say that?

If you have 5 choices of who to choose as a Kage
You can take the time and actually choose who is Kage Level

If there aren't many who qualify
You have to choose the whose closest to it




> Still warrants him as Kage level. I suppose the Edo Kages, he's currently fighting aren't actually Kage level, since they're being handled by a Jounin level nin.



They aren't even fighting at their full power 
I hope you realize that

2 of the Kages are just sitting there taking attacks

Unless you think Sai and Kankuro can really beat Deidara and Sasori 




> What the fuck? I'm not evening trying to argue Jiraiya not being Kage level.



Read the quote 
I clearly said he was Kage Level




> Yeah, those are the only qualifications needed. You don't really need to be capable of defending and leading the village, and doing what's best for it. You just need to be politically savvy. Who ever's the most politically savvy earns the title Naruto's really been training all this time for nothing. When he really should have been studying politics, and increasing his political know how.



They must have pushed some qualifications aside 

If they picked Danzo for Kage
That just goes to show you 
If a village in in choas 

They can't afford to take their time to pick a new leader (whether he is Kage Level or not)




> Gaara no longer has the Ichibi, and is still being compared to his power, showing that he hasn't weakened from the loss of their 'trump.' Why would they have a Jounin level kid, whose never experienced war, lost to the Akatsuki, and they consider unstable, as their Shinobi General. The village now believe in Gaara, along with the rest of the Shinobi world, with his speech unifying them.



Because he's on the same level as Kakashi, Darui, and Kitsuchi?


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## Empathy (Jul 16, 2011)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> The question is how do the keep up with A?



He can't touch Deidara in the air. Shroudless A is no danger toward Kisame.



> The sand should make the water useless as well
> And know Kisame has to stand on quicksand
> 
> Gaara could just let him sink or bury him



Suiton attacks would weaken his sand, enableing him to tear through it. How does it weaken water? What the fuck are you talking about? Lol, even if he tries to utilize _Gokusa Maiso_, Kisame can just easily counter with _Doton: Dochuu Senko_, or just raise the water level. 



> Because it's not just about raw power



Did I say it was? No, so don't put words into my mouth. It's still a testament to Kage level ability. Seriously, Gaara's binding 3 other Edo Kage currently, and you think he's Jounin level? Jounin level Joint Shinobi General?



> You're saying these guys are Kage Level because they can one-shot bijuus,  blow up villages, manipulate huge amounts of sands makes them Kage Level
> 
> That's nice and all
> But when it comes down to it
> ...



Like who?



> But they're just outclassed by Kage Level ninja(even if it's barely)



First of all, there's not such thing as being 'barely outclassed.' Gaara's Kage level by virtue of being an actual Kage. And tell me who they're outclassed by.



> It doesn't take him long at all to turn on his shroud



I'm aware of this.



> From there, he could get Deidara before he reaches a great enough altitude to avoid CQC



Version One A failed to blitz Sasuke, and A wouldn't access Version Two at the beggining. And Deidara can easily elevate, faster than A will be able to manage CQC against an airborne opponent.



> Neither are as fast as a V2 A or RM Naruto(who already blitzed him)
> 
> Hachimon Gai never tried to blitz Kisame
> And Bee can be kept up with because he attacks in a linear fashion



RM Naruto blitzed Kisame's immobile form, and hit Samehada so he couldn't absorb his Chakra. RM Naruto's already proved faster. A is faster than Version Two Bee, who Kisame remarked was unable to keep up with. But Bee has more shroud and Chakra than A does, his shroud will be absorbed at once all together, since Kisame was unable to absorb all of Bee's at once. Kisame also has Jutsu that serve as a natural anti-blitz.



> Kisame has to swing Samehada in A's area to absorb the shroud
> If he can't react to A, how will he absorb the shroud before he gets hits?



A in CQC, will be able to be hit by Samehada if he can use it defend or make contact with his shroud, similar to Bee's scenario. 



> You tried to make it seem like there was a huge difference when I said he couldn't react to RM Naruto and then I also said A is in the same ballpark of speed



He couldn't react to RM Naruto, but he can react to Shroudless A.



> Kisame has to wield Samehada fast enough to block Raikage's blow
> He hasn't shown he can react to speed of that calibre
> He didnt absorb RM Naruto's shroud



He's shown he can keep up with that kind of speed. If Sasuke can more or less do it, Kisame can manage as well. RM Naruto hit both Kisame and Samehada as a whole, it won't be the case normally. A's attack in general will cause him to lose his shroud, even without Kisame having to make overexerted swings. I'd also love to here what A does when inside of _Suiton: Dai Bakusui Shoha_.



> How do just having haxxed abilities make you Kage Level?



Having haxxxed abilities that can contend with other Kage make you Kage level. Kisame and Deidara certainly fit the description.



> Even if they have haxxed abilities, Kage Level still have more versatility and are generally more skilled overall and have ways to counter haxxed abilities



Yeah, you can certainly speak for every single Kage. Versatility isn't a requirement for Kage level, and not something everyone has. A's not versatile at all. Gai's, Kakashi's equal and the former is completely not versatile, while the latter is extremely versatile.



> Don't feel like it.
> This isn't a BD thread
> 
> I'd have to explain sceanarios and usages of strategies
> ...



Then you don't have a leg to stand on. Just because you don't 'feel like naming them' when they probably don't exist.



> It's obvious that Hidan killed her
> 
> We don't see what Kakuzu did or if he even did anything at all to hurt Nibi



Yes, I'm sure you can speak with certainity about what happened on an off-panel fight. How did Hidan aquire blood?



> Being the bodygaurd of a Kage, Being a Division Commander of the Shinobi Alliance,



A testament to his rank. Shi's a bodyguard and he isn't very well combat equipped. But it does warrant him as at the top of Elite Jounin level. But his feats certainly don't compete with Deidara's or Kisame's.



> Displaying Swordsmanship on par w/ a Seven Swordsmen in training,



Suigetsu isn't one of the 7 Swordsmen, and he bested him due to his Raiton weakness.



> showing high profiency in ninjutsu with 2 elements,



_Raiton: Kangekiha_ and _Suiton: Suijinheki_ certainly aren't any 'highly proficent' Ninjutsu. Or at least anything that can contend with Deidara or Kisame.



> displaying greater profiency with his Kekkai Genkai(Ranton), being able to wield black lightning,



All of Darui's Jutsu lack major killing capacity. None of his feats or Jutsu can come close to comparing with either Deidara's or Kisame's.



> and using 2 of the 5 Sacred treasures( a testament to his stamina)



Tenten was able to use _Bashosen_ for a short while before passing out. It's likely you need to have abnormal Chakra Reserves to wield them for a long period of time(like Kinkaku and Ginkaku wielding it for a lifetime). But with only short battle, a person with normal or above average should be able to use them for a small period of time. 

You seriously believe Darui matches up to Deidara or Kisame? Kisame has nothing to compare to _Suiro Sameodori_. His Jutsu lack major killing capacity. Kisame defeated Killer Bee, do you think Darui could match him the same? Deidara captured Kazekage Gaara in the desert, and could have destroyed all of Sunagakure. They solo'd the Sanbi and Yonbi. Darui's endevors can't compare.


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## Hokage (Jul 16, 2011)

The problem in your arguments is that you're simplifying things too much. 

What is Kage level? Is it Minato's level? Is it A's level? Is it Tsunade's level?

How can anyone disregard other issues like bad match ups (ex Itachi vs Orochimaru), feelings (Sasori vs Chiyo), experience (Sarutobi vs Orochimaru) and responsibilities (Killerbee protecting friends against Kisame or Gaara's ultimate sacrifice to save the Sand village)?

I think that in the right conditions all Akatsuki can swerve from Kage level to elite jounin level. For example Hidan (considered 1 of the weakest Akatsuki) can nail much stronger shinobi such as Killerbee, Jiraiya and even Kisame if they catch them single footed. On the other hand Orochimaru would lose badly against someone with fantastic genjutsu skills (ex Itachi)


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## naster (Jul 16, 2011)

Akatsuki members were all top-tier ninja from their respective villages and generation. The question should really be: If Akatsuki was never formed, would its members eventually become kage of their village?

Oro did not become hokage because he's fucking evil. He has shown some of the strongest techniques in the manga and has killed multiple kages. This guy was not even the strongest member of Akatsuki when he left.

Hidan's village transitioned into a tourist area. Could Hidan have been the strongest from his village? Yes. However, his village's strength is very questionable, which is why I believe he is probably lower than kages in actual strength/skill. 

Kakuzu failed to assassinate the first hokage and left with his life. Fighting and escaping from one of history's strongest shinobi is no easy task. He also killed his village's elders and stole Takigakure's strongest techniques. Like Hidan, the strength of Kakuzu's village is very questionable. Kakuzu probably has strength equivalent to a low-tier kage (he's very beatable by other shinobi juggernauts we know).

Deidara was the third tsuchikage's student. He's hunted biju and even defeated Gaara (feats elite jounin could not perform). I'm still not convinced Deidara would have become kage for his village, though he would have been a great candidate from what we've seen. Onoki clearly outclassed Deidara, but Deidara was still able to compete against a kage none the less. Personally, I'd rate Deidara as a low-tier kage with the destructive techniques of a high-tier kage.

Sasori killed the third kazekage and destroyed a nation by himself. What else is there to say? Deidara also states that Sasori is stronger than himself, which is why I believe Sasori is equivalent to a mid-tier kage.

Konan is hard to rate. She was taken out by the manga's main villain in her only fight (although she went down in glorious fashion). I'm tempted to rank her low/mid-kage level just because she was the only person Pein trusted, but she has no feats to warrant such praise.

The elite of Akatsuki are all top-tier kage level shinobi (probably with the exception of Kisame who may be mid-level). I'd like to assert the title of kage represents the strongest shinobi *currently* in the village. This does not include those who have left, been exiled, or were not chosen for the position. Person X (who is mid-level kage) gets the kage position over person Y (who is low-level kage). Clearly, there must be people with kage strength running around in this world who do not lead their village.


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## Empathy (Jul 16, 2011)

Hokage said:


> The problem in your arguments is that you're simplifying things too much.
> 
> What is Kage level? Is it Minato's level? Is it A's level? Is it Tsunade's level?



It's all of their level. The term 'Kage level' doesn't really exist. It's just something fans made up to decide if certain nin can contend with the Kages. Tsunade's at the bottom of Kage level(Low Kage level), and A or Minato are obviously closer to the top. 



> How can anyone disregard other issues like bad match ups (ex Itachi vs Orochimaru), feelings (Sasori vs Chiyo), experience (Sarutobi vs Orochimaru) and responsibilities (Killerbee protecting friends against Kisame or Gaara's ultimate sacrifice to save the Sand village)?



You can't, but some of them wouldn't really make a difference with or without. What's your point?



> I think that in the right conditions all Akatsuki can swerve from Kage level to elite jounin level. For example Hidan (considered 1 of the weakest Akatsuki) can nail much stronger shinobi such as Killerbee, Jiraiya and even Kisame if they catch them single footed. On the other hand Orochimaru would lose badly against someone with fantastic genjutsu skills (ex Itachi)



If Hidan could land a lucky hit on them and win, it wouldn't be any testament to him being stronger. It's about their normal abilities, which most should contend with other Kage.


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## natwel (Jul 16, 2011)

Akatsuki are just Elite Jounin level ninjas that are Criminal. That's all.

Akatsuki isn't an official ninja title it's a secret society or a mafia group. In fact, not every Akatsuki members are Jounin, Some are Chunnin and Genin. If you go on Wikipedia it tells you that Akatsuki are misfit ninjas that were disgraced from their villages. And they all came together as a group, it's a shame that Madara was using them as tools for himself and that he didn't look out for their welfare, that's a real shame. Konoha and Suna leaders look after their people but corrupt people like Orochimaru and Madara don't. That's how you know the difference between a good organization and a bad organization.


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## Shirai Ryu (Jul 16, 2011)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Jonin
> Shikaku
> Shikamaru
> Kitsuchi
> ...


LOL WUT? Kage's on a Jounin list?


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## Hokage (Jul 16, 2011)

Empathy said:


> It's all of their level. The term 'Kage level' doesn't really exist. It's just something fans made up to decide if certain nin can contend with the Kages. Tsunade's at the bottom of Kage level(Low Kage level), and A or Minato are obviously closer to the top.



There is no level in fighting. 1 mistake and you're fried. Naruto is filled with stories of underdogs managing to take advantage of one mistake from the enemy to turn things around. Naruto vs Neji, Sarutobi vs Orochimaru, Naruto vs Gaara even Jiraiya nearly managed to knock Pain (if Nagato was present during the fight he would have probably fell to the frog song genjutsu too) despite the difference between the two characters was enormous

And there is no Kage level since once again the difference between the Kages is too big. Titles means little (apart from respect and maybe administrative responsibilities). Take Naruto. He's genin. Would you compare him to Konohamaru?





> You can't, but some of them wouldn't really make a difference with or without. What's your point?



You can speculate by comparing the skills and come out with a rough estimate. For example I think that Deidara would defeat Tsunade. The reason being that the 5th is a close quarter combat type of shinobi. In theory, Deidara can fly high and limit himself in dropping bombs on the 5th. However my thoughts are mere speculation since it totally disregard Tsunade's experience, ability to exploit its enemy's weaknesses, chance, terrain etc. Same thing can be said about Deidara vs Minato. Theory wise Minato has all what it takes to beat Deidara. However when one take in consideration everything (experience, terrain, chance etc) things get so complicated that its almost impossible to predict



> If Hidan could land a lucky hit on them and win, it wouldn't be any testament to him being stronger. It's about their normal abilities, which most should contend with other Kage.



What you label as a lucky hit happens to be Hidan's main jutsu. Hidan skills allows him to focus only on slightly damaging his enemy. One mistake and you're fried meat


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## joshhookway (Jul 16, 2011)

Your thread is a fail Turrin, It's misleading, You say most, when it's just Konan, Hidan, Kakazu, and Kisame


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## Mathias124 (Jul 16, 2011)

joshhookway said:


> Your thread is a fail Turrin, It's misleading, You say most, when it's just Konan, Hidan, *Kakazu*, and Kisame



Kakuzu was the most battle hardened ninja in the world.

*For as far back as before the ninja villages he has been fighting*, and not just nobodies.

He went for high value targets such as one of Konoha's *best* Jounins, Asuma Sarutobi, member of a famous clan.


Nobody, not even Madara (_he has been living in hiding for some time, there's no way he's been as active as a world famous bounty huner_), can boast to have as much battle experience as Kakuzu.

And you call him a Jounin level ninja? he rapes Jounins on a regular basis, Kakashi who is arguably at the niche between Elite Jounin and Kage was pushed to his limit even though he had elemental advantage.

Kakuzu is boss, unless you have a lightning afinity you'll need at least an a rank tech to hurt him, and even if you do he has an enhanced and very durable body.

And 5 lives.


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## Shinobi66 (Jul 16, 2011)

Kakuzu, Deidara, Kisame, and Sasori are most definitely not elite Jonin level. 

Konan is debatable. Since people don't count her paper ocean as part of her regular arsenal, all we have to judge her is her regular techniques.

Plotwise, I don't think neither her nor Hidan were intended by Kishi to be Elite Jonin, but by feats they are. Still, Akatsuki is supposed to be made up of S (Kage level) class shinobi, so no, they are not Jonin level.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 20, 2011)

Empathy said:


> Regardless because I believe all four of them to be Kage level. But Kisame grossly overpowers Kakashi. His Ninjutsu is far too weak compared to Kisame's. And diversionary tactics or bunshin feints are detected from Kisame or Samehada being a sensor. Kakashi doesn't have much to really put Kisame down. The only thing he has as a threat toward him would be _Kamui_. And he's likely to die before he ever gets a chance to use it. He had to almost be killed twice to even consider using it against Kakuzu. Genjutsu is his only solid chance, and having been partners with Itachi, knows to avoid Genjutsu. With Gai against Deidara, him and his entire team would have been killed by armless, clayless, exhausted Deidara, if Kakashi wasn't there. He's likely to fall succeptable to his Minefield. If he's hasn't activated _Hachimon_ by the time _C2_ is out, he can be killed by a direct hit from a missle, since he lacks a proper defense and durability. His only ranged attacks would be _Asa Kujaku_ and _Hirudora_. Both of which Deidara may be able to fly out of range. And _C3_ and _C4_ are game-enders.



Exactly.
All these guys are on same level and can defeat each other

Our argument is whether these guys are Kage Level(I don't believe they are)

I don't think these guys can consisently compete with or defeat Kage Level shinobi 



> Debatable with Chakra abosorbtion, *flight*, Bijuu level Chakra(like A has), Kenjutsu, *ability to fight at air sea or land*, both can Doton underground, large AoE Ninjutsu, and destructive capacity ect. Just pointing out that well roundedness and verasitlity a Kage level makes not.



How does flight and fighting turf make them well rounded?

The rest A(and most Kage levels) can deal with in a one on one fight




> He could have countered with _Suiton: Bakusui Shoha_ or just rip through it with Samehada.



The water would've just been swallowed along with Kisame

But then again, that's if he could even execute the jutsu in time

And Samehada can't destroy flesh coming from all different directions




> The first two involve Raiton diffusion. He countered _Chidori Eiso_ at first by keeping out of range. And I doubt he'd fall for it again. He stopped flight at first by clipping his wings. And the last one was one of the most famous examples of PNJ. Regardless, he could never have won without Sharingan and Raiton, to diffuse his bombs. That's the reason he won, not because of some 'versatility' bullshit.



I call it versatility
You call it PNJ

Let's just agree to disagree
I don't feel like arguing this




> It doesn't matter where it is, you should still provide your reasoning to why you believe this.



I already did



> *Kakashi was the main fighter with backup*, he was keeping up with Kakuzu. Albeit losing, but matching him in battle none the less. And surprise attacks or not, still count.



With backup, he was almost killed twice 

If he had fought Kakazu one on one(no surprise attacks), he would've been slaugthered(unless he gets a lucky Kamui)





> That's because _Doton: Domu_ would protect from his attacks.



So now Gai has a counter to Jiongu and masks?




> _Doton: Domu_ can be absorbed similar to shrouds. _Jiongu_ can be ripped through with Samehada. Kisame's has the advantage over any Ninjutsu specialist. His Ninjutsu, desptie Kakuzu's being more versatiliy, grossly overpowers his. Even if he is disarmed, Samehada would just come back to him. Lol.



Kakuzu has long range mode that can tangle Kisame from afar, prevent from using any jutsu, and blast him from all sides with elementals

Even w/ Samehada, Kisame would be killed
Samehada is not Preta Path





> Kisame can cut or rip the _Jiongu_ tendrils apart.



Not while his hands are tied together




> *Those are all just ways to defeat him. How's being able to 'kill someone instantly' a testament to poor matchups*. The same goes for incapacitating him. The only one on the ones listed Kisame's surely stronger than would be Hanzo. He can defeat Sasori, with _Suiton: Senjikizame_. He can also beat A, since he's without his shroud. And shroudless A isn't strong or at least not strong enough to defeat Kisame. His only feat would be blitzing a weak White Zetsu, before he was Yamato powered.



Because you saying that because Kisame can't counter Gates

Gai's his worst matchup

Does Kisame have counters to poison, genjutsu, or fuuinjutsu?
Anybody who was something Kisame can't counter is his worst matchup
Not just Gai


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 20, 2011)

Gai is his worst Match-up because he is a very strong fighter whos main power comes through Tai-jutsu, which destroys Kisame's major power growing stronger based on the power of his opponents justsu/chakra ect.

No one else but Gai is as bad for Kisame in terms of jutsu/skills match-ups.

Theirs a thread in the battle-dome titled Kisame vs Kages, most people their think he can beat most of the current kages and some believe he can beat all of them.

Which is more then enough for me, if you have the skills to beat a Kage in a fair 1v1 fight, or at least give them a very good fight then i consider you kage level.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Jul 20, 2011)

Empathy said:


> That's not a bad matchup, that's just him being stronger than his opponent. Gai serves as a natural counter toward Kisame's repitore and fighting style. That's all there is to it.



So does Itachi, Minato, Pain, Sasori, etc

Since Kisame has no counter to genjutsu, poison, soul rips, and fuuinjutsu



> Hmm?



Minato and Pain are just as dangerous to Kisame as Gai is




> The first one was during battle, I'm speaking of post their battle. The second one is not him healing Kisame. Samehada had betrayed Kisame by then.



Kisame had been given chakra/stamina to regenerate multiple times before they fought

He wasn't hindered during that fight




> Has it ever done with such a large mountain sized amount of water?



Don't see how the size of water would matter
He repelled an ocean and Shoten Kisame's lake




> Gai has Chakra, he just doesn't use it. He prefers to rely on Taijutsu.



Kisame won't have any chakra to steal from Samehada to heal




> What's your point? And anyone can replace 'defeating' with 'owning.' Fact of the matter is, Sasuke was almost killed. And would have beem killed if he couldn't diffuse his bombs and if not for the plot.



Deidara would've been killed if it weren't for Tobi

See what I did there?




> Not saying there aren't. I'm saying Deidara can matchup with some of the Kages and defeat some as well. *And his abilities can contend with that of a Kage, rather than him being Jounin level*.



That's why I said he is an Elite Jonin

An Elite Jonin can defeat a Kage with the right abilities and circumstances 

Doesn't make them overall stronger or Kage Level in that right




> And then, he walked right into a trap that would have killed if he couldn't diffuse his bombs.



We were arguing about how Sasuke avoids C4 w/o Raiton
He dodged it fine

I don't care about what happened after he avoided it




> That's because they're Kage level Jutsus(sans Anko). Madara already warped through _C0_. I doubt Deidara would need _C0_ to kill Orochimaru, when _C4_ or even _C3_ can suffice so nicely.



Orochimura could regenerate from both in Hydra Mode



> Any 'ownage' just equates to defeating barely alive. If Sasuke were stronger, then he would have not needed to diffuse his bombs. *Sasuke was a terrible matchup, for having flight, Raiton affinity, and Sharingan that does take away from some of his victory.* Poor matchups are poor matchups, a weaker water type Pokemon can still defeat a stronger fire type Pokemon. Sasuke wouldn't have survived and would have been killed if he hadn't been able to diffuse his bombs, meaning Deidara the stronger of the two. Regardless, I do believe Hebi Sasuke as well to be Kage level, from absorbing and taking over Orochimaru.



Again, many ninja like Pain, Jiriaya, Onoki, Minato, and Itachi are worse matchups for Deidara than Sasuke was

As long as you have something that can't be countered by your opponent
You can be a bad matchup




> *Sasuke's range and Kakuzu's range are different. He'd elevate higher against him.* Kakuzu's Ninjutsu certainly doesn't cover more AoE, than Gaara's entire desert. Even if he was knocked off his bird(highly unlikely occurence) he's shown he can make birds while free-falling at terminal velocity.



Lol, Kakuzu can get on the wind heart and blast Deidara with elementals all day

Even Deidara won't be able to constantly dodge this, thisand this

All of which are faster and a lot more powerful than Gaara's sand





> Yup.
> 
> It's made clear, on the SFX that they were jumping. The masks(sans the Fuuton one) have only shown superb jumping ability.



Damn.
I thought that would work

It was a nice try, though




> Deidara doesn't use the snake handseal for all his Jutsu, and the Sharingan is what allows it to be read. Even if he could, Deidara can easily conceal them, up in the air. Deidara can evade an entire desert but he can't avoid a Fuuton Jutsu which laid waste to some trees and a linear Raition? _Fuuton: Atsugai_ lacks high killing capacity anyhow, and at best it would send him off his bird, which he's shown he can make a new one in mid-air. The masks don't have any particular durability, if they're hit by any explosive(especilally ones that cover much AoE) they'll be destroyed. Like you mentioned earlier with Kisame, *Deidara can kill Kakuzu instantly as well with the usage of C4 or C3* which would kill Kakuzu and destroy all of his hearts simultaneously.



Kakazu's attacks have way more and powerful AoE than Gaara's sand
And Deidara could barely escape that

A direct hit from any mask would kill Deidara
Or at the very least destroy his bird 
Which would leave him open for attack

Not to mention Kakuzu can fight in the air
And destroy any bombs with elemntals like a Fire/Wind combo, Atsugai, Gian, Zukkoku, etc.

Kakazu would not allow Deidara to have his way to prep C3/C4
He would constantly pressure Deidara
Whether on the ground or in the air


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