# Minato Vs Hashirama



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Location: current battlefield 
SOM: IC
Restrictions:None. 
Distance: 35*.*26 meters
Knowledge: manga

This is BSM Minato. 
Assume he has SM Naruto's feats. 
(Even though I think BM Minato is more than enough for Hashi.)

so, who wins?

Edit: by the way, Minato is alive here, and not an edo.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Minato doesn't have BSM.

Hashi still wins - Shinsuusenju is just too much for BSM of 50% Kurama.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Feb 20, 2014)

Another Minato match. 

BSM Minato is insane though, and I won't surprise that this Minato can actually win Hashirama after a hell match.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> Minato doesn't have BSM.
> 
> Hashi still wins - Shinsuusenju is just too much for BM of 50% Kurama.



he has BM & SM. 

S/T barrier is too much for Shinsuusenju as well. That's a child play, unless you think the Shinsuusenju is stronger than the Juubi's TBB (which won't be a surprise ).


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> he has BM & SM.
> 
> S/T barrier is too much for Shinsuusenju as well. That's a child play, unless you think the Shinsuusenju is stronger than the Juubi's TBB (which won't be a surprised ).



I doubt that the Budha's hands will enter the barrier and appear in another place since it's part of the statue and not a thrown projectile.

ST barrier cannot deal with everything.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> he has BM & SM.
> 
> S/T barrier is too much for Shinsuusenju as well. That's a child play, unless you think the Shinsuusenju is stronger than the Juubi's TBB (which won't be a surprised ).


He has BM & SM, not BSM. I'm still discussing BSM Minato because I thought you made that a part of your stipulations. 

What did we see when Minato was alive?


----------



## J★J♥ (Feb 20, 2014)

Base Hashirama wins in one shot.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> I doubt that the Budha's hands will enter the barrier and appear in another place since it's part of the statue and not a thrown projectile.
> 
> ST barrier cannot deal with everything.



Why teleporting the hands and not the entire Buddha? 



Kai said:


> He has BM & SM, not BSM. I'm still discussing BSM Minato because I thought you made that a part of your stipulations.
> 
> What did we see when Minato was alive?



- put 2 & 2 together. 
the only thing was stopping Naruto from doing that was Kurama. Now, both Kuramas are friendly with Minato & his kid. There is absolutely nothing stopping him from doing so (except plot. lol). 

- I honestly think teleporting jutsus is different than teleporting people, and using FTG is different than teleporting via S/T barrier. Regardless, that's page is irrelevant at this point, Minato
has new feats deal with it. 

Not to mention Minato teleported the Juubi's TBB in base without effort, and we know
1- Oro's ET raised the dead up less than their full power.
2- ET does not make you able to things you were not able to do in life.

Yes, it's restore the chakra faster, but it does not give you more chakra. U_U

Edit: kai, you can consider BSM to be part of the stipulations. U_U


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Base Hashirama wins in one shot.



Base Hashi would probably get blitzes like this
claiming the same for one of the Seven Swordsmen' blades, now do we?
(that was a great panel I have to say )

Unless you think Hashi is as fast as JJ madara and has the same reaction speed. @.@


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Feb 20, 2014)

even with minatos latest asspull power up hes still inferior to hashirama

Hashirama n Madara would be the pinnacle of shinobi power without getting into the original gods or juubi jins


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> - put 2 & 2 together.
> the only thing was stopping Naruto from doing that was Kurama. Now, both Kuramas are friendly with Minato & his kid. There is absolutely nothing stopping him from doing so (except plot. lol).


How about put 1 & 1 together?

Minato did not use SM when he was in BM and asked for Naruto's assistance for senjutsu while they were both in that state.



			
				Elia said:
			
		

> - I honestly think teleporting jutsus is different than teleporting people, and using FTG is different than teleporting via S/T barrier. Regardless, that's page is irrelevant at this point, Minato
> has new feats deal with it.
> 
> Not to mention Minato teleported the Juubi's TBB in base without effort, and we know
> ...


Minato states in the scan that he needs enough chakra to teleport both Kurama and his bijuudama (both entity and jutsu). S/T barrier is a variant of Hiraishin.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> How about put 1 & 1 together?
> 
> Minato did not use SM when he was in BM and asked for Naruto's assistance for senjutsu while they were both in that state.
> 
> ...



again,  you can consider BSM to be part of the stipulations. I don't want to waste much time with that. 

- Yeah, that was the past and we are in the present. 
Minato teleported the Juubi's TBB which was bigger than itself with no time.

Also, Hashi was cover with blood against Kurama
claiming the same for one of the Seven Swordsmen' blades, now do we?
he needed his wife to defeat Kurama completely
claiming the same for one of the Seven Swordsmen' blades, now do we?

yet you see some people think it's going to be a walk on the park for him.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Yeah, that was the past and we are in the present.
> Minato teleported the Juubi's TBB which was bigger than itself with no time.


Doesn't your OP state Minato is alive here?



			
				Elia said:
			
		

> Also, Hashi was cover with blood against Kurama
> claiming the same for one of the Seven Swordsmen' blades, now do we?
> he needed his wife to defeat Kurama completely
> claiming the same for one of the Seven Swordsmen' blades, now do we?
> ...


Hashi stated Kurama's power was too great *to roam freely.*

He doesn't possess fuuinjutsu, so what? What's your point exactly?


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> Why teleporting the hands and not the entire Buddha?



Minato here doesn't have unlimited chakra. His BM can give him enough, though. But i don't think he is doing it instantly, and he has nothing to hold down the statue throwing punches with it's hundreds of arms and E-Honda's punching style.


----------



## ZE (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> This is BSM Minato.



Oh no you didn't.
BSM Minato is BSM Naruto with Haraishin. 
If he's not on Hashirama's level, he should be close. So it would be a close fight, but there's no way to predict the outcome. Minato would've an hard time to put Hashirama down for good, and Hashirama would have an hard time to tag Minato.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]





Kai said:


> Doesn't your OP state Minato is alive here?
> 
> 
> Hashi stated Kurama's power was too great *to roam freely.*
> ...



- Yeah, but what that meant for is so he can't regenerate, and to give Hashi a chance, since he does not have sealing jutsu. Also, if base edo Minato can do that, then alive Minato will do it as well since the Hokages are not at full power as I already said. 

- look to Hashi's face again. 
- He won't be able to completely defeat Kurama without his wife.



LostSelf said:


> Minato here doesn't have unlimited chakra. His BM can give him enough, though. But i don't think he is doing it instantly, and he has nothing to hold down the statue throwing punches with it's hundreds of arms and E-Honda's punching style.



Hashi's chakra = BM chakra 
BSM Minato should have more chakra than him. 

- He can teleport behind the statue with FTG, the statue won't be fast enough to hit Minato to begin with. 

Now, I have to go, I'll return later. @.@


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> Hashi's chakra = BM chakra
> BSM Minato should have more chakra than him.
> 
> - He can teleport behind the statue with FTG, the statue won't be fast enough to hit Minato to begin with.
> ...



The chakra quantity doesn't matter much, in my opinion. The size of the statue is too big to be instantly teleported, and it seems Minato cannot concentrate teleporting a huge sized object while teleporting himself.

P.D: Minato doesn't have more chakra than Hashirama. The guy said BM Naruto had almost as much chakra as him, factoring SM might help Minato, but Hashirama has his own version too.


----------



## Senjuclan (Feb 20, 2014)

Minato, even with BSM is still weaker. That is how powerful Hashirama is. However, they would finally be on the same level. They would transform the landscape if they fought. It would be a hard fought battle for either of them but Hashirama still has the advantage because he has jutsus that neutralize bijuu chakra


----------



## Turrin (Feb 20, 2014)

If this is a living BSM Mnato which means he can use Bijuu + Senjutsu + Uzamaki Fuuin powers I tend to think he'd beat Hashirama or draw w/ him, I mean at that point he is stacking 3 of Rikudo's main powers, while Hashirama only has 2 (Bijuu/Mokuton + Senjutsu). The sheer hax of BSM Minato + BSM Clones all wielding Shiki Fuujin is not something I can confidently say Hashirama is able to overcome anymore; and who knows how Hakke Seal works, so that might also be equally hax'd without needing to die to pull it off. As for how Minato deals w/ Senpo Shin SuuSenju, we'll I think at the point where he has BM + SM chakra to draw off of he'd probably be able to warp away Shin SuuSenju the same way he teleported Kyuubi away. It would take a-lot out of him don't get me wrong, but it would also take a-lot out of Hashirama to create the Shin Suusenju in the first place, so both would take a large hit to their stamina there.

With that said, while I don't doubt Minato could have used BSM as an Edo, I do have some doubts about whether he could use Shiki Fuujin or Uzamaki fuuinjutsu as an Edo, so if he couldn't than were talking about a Minato that never existed.


----------



## Krippy (Feb 20, 2014)

Hashirama babyshakes. Mokuton: Hotei and Mokujin is enough here. Shinsuusenju is overkill


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> Hashi's chakra = BM chakra
> BSM Minato should have more chakra than him.


Hashirama compared his chakra to 100% Kyubi+Naruto+Minato. Minato alone(who has less chakra than Naruto) with just one half of Kyubi is still significantly below Hashirama in terms of chakra. SM or not.


Assuming Minato can use BSM as good as Naruto(debatable) he still loses more often than not imo. Hashirama is still slightly more impressive in my eyes + his abilities counter Biju/Jins perfectly. Shiki Fujin draw is plausible though. Assuming Minato can pull Hashirama's soul out. And I wouldn't be surprised if Shodai would simply troll Shiki Fujin similarly to how he ignored Edo Tensei binding.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2014)

what is this? minato isnt on the level of perfect susano fused with the kyuubi. not even close. base hashirama destroys him.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 20, 2014)

I find this to be the same as BSM Naruto vs Hashi, it'll be a long fight but I believe Hashi would win in the end eventaully, he's just got a good moveset for this match up.


----------



## αce (Feb 20, 2014)

Are we just going to ignore that a mokuton dragon _without_ sage mode enhancements forced Naruto out of his bijuu mode? Are we going to ignore the fact that Hashirama has an innate ability to drop sealing shrines in sage mode that subdued the juubi? 

If anything, going into a bijuu state here makes Minato lose even harder than he already would have. Hashirama drops a seal on him and calls it a day.


----------



## Jizznificent (Feb 20, 2014)

give minato the juubi, then he'll finally be able to beat hashirama.


----------



## Ƶero (Feb 20, 2014)

Juubi's TBB >> Shinsuusenju

Base Minato casually warped away the former, we know he has large chakra reserves otherwise he couldnt go into SM.

BM Minato would beat Hashirama imo, BSM should win far more convincingly. Hashi is never catching Minato with FTG + sage sensing. SM enhanced Rasengans, TBB, chakra roar and mass shadow clones make this a very hard fight for Hashirama.

FTG + 

should give Minato the win more often than not.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

LostSelf said:


> The chakra quantity doesn't matter much, in my opinion. The size of the statue is too big to be instantly teleported, and it seems Minato cannot concentrate teleporting a huge sized object while teleporting himself.
> 
> P.D: Minato doesn't have more chakra than Hashirama. The guy said BM Naruto had almost as much chakra as him, factoring SM might help Minato, but Hashirama has his own version too.



dude the Juubi's TBB is bigger than the statue, and Minato teleported it in BASE. even IF he can't
teleport in base, why not in BSM? 

- Hashirama WITH SM has comparable chakra to BM Naruto. He don't know that Naruto & Minato
have SM. Thus, BSM chakra that they have > SM Hashirama's chakra.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2014)

all of this is wrong.


Ƶero said:


> Juubi's TBB >> Shinsuusenju


the juubi and its bijudama are laughably dwarfed by shinsuusenju in size.


> Base Minato casually warped away the former, we know he has large chakra reserves otherwise he couldnt go into SM.


who cares? 


> BM Minato would beat Hashirama imo, BSM should win far more convincingly. Hashi is never catching Minato with FTG + sage sensing. SM enhanced Rasengans, TBB, chakra roar and mass shadow clones make this a very hard fight for Hashirama.


this is the main argument for all minato fans. his fans say that so and so attack will never hit him yet in the manga, he gets destroyed by attacks that are on an infinitely smaller scale. 
madaras kick is weaker than any jutsu in hashiramas arsenal.


> FTG +
> 
> should give Minato the win more often than not.


assuming that minato already has hashirama tagged.
hashirama reactions are equivalent to madara and he reacted to a hiraishin blitz.

also, when has minato used hiraishin while in biju mode.

the rasengan is caught by mokuton hands.

minato gets a seal dropped on him.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Hashirama compared his chakra to 100% Kyubi+Naruto+Minato. Minato alone(who has less chakra than Naruto) with just one half of Kyubi is still significantly below Hashirama in terms of chakra. SM or not.
> 
> 
> Assuming Minato can use BSM as good as Naruto(debatable) he still loses more often than not imo. Hashirama is still slightly more impressive in my eyes + his abilities counter Biju/Jins perfectly. Shiki Fujin draw is plausible though. Assuming Minato can pull Hashirama's soul out. And I wouldn't be surprised if Shodai would simply troll Shiki Fujin similarly to how he ignored Edo Tensei binding.



No. 

"HE" & "HAS" & "HIS" NOT "THEY", "HAVE" & "THEIR"


1- How can Hashi even attack Minato?
2- Lol, SF cannot be seen + cannot be sensed. Not to mention it stops all the jutsus. 
 & more than that it has fodderized Hashi already.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 20, 2014)

> the juubi and its bijudama are laughably dwarfed by shinsuusenju in size.


The Juubi and Juubidama are clearly several times larger than that statue.


----------



## αce (Feb 20, 2014)

Last I checked Madara before obtaining the Rikudou's abilities managed to react to a hiraishin from Tobirama at near point blank. And he was signifcantly faster than SM Naruto in base (Hashirama commented that he "regained his old powers" after using such speed).

Basically a base Madara blitzed SM Naruto fairly casually and then with sage mode enhancements managed to off panel a guy who managed to sneak up on him with Hiraishin. Logically, Hashirama is not in any way getting blitzed - especially if he has countless clones on the battlefield that are not distinguishable from one another and with the ability to fuse with the mokutons that he launches on the battlefield.


All of this is pointless anyways since going to BSM would make Minato a much easier target to hit anyways.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> The Juubi and Juubidama are clearly several times larger than that statue.


the same juubi who is only as big as obitos bijudama tree, which is the same size as PS/mokujin?


----------



## αce (Feb 20, 2014)

> The Juubi and Juubidama are clearly several times larger than that statue.



The tree or the picasso juubi? It's bigger than the picasso juubi but probably not the tree.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Hiraishin is taking a backseat while Minato is in Bijuu Mode.

There will be no teleporting Kurama avatar if we pay any respect to in-character procedures, and even if he did, it wouldn't be for very long (transporting Kurama avatar constantly in a fight is no cakewalk).


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> Hiraishin is taking a backseat while Minato is in Bijuu Mode.
> 
> There will be no teleporting Kurama avatar if we pay any respect to in-character procedures, and even if he did, it wouldn't be for very long (transporting Kurama avatar constantly in a fight is no cakewalk).



Kai, stop saying he won't use his F jutsu for the sake of Hashirama, since when Minato doesn't use his FTG in a fight? 

lol, you even have the nerves to say "pay any respect to in-character procedures" 
Please, show us when Minato stop using his FTG in a fight.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

αce said:


> Last I checked Madara before obtaining the Rikudou's abilities managed to react to a hiraishin from Tobirama at near point blank. And he was signifcantly faster than SM Naruto in base (Hashirama commented that he "regained his old powers" after using such speed).
> 
> Basically a base Madara blitzed SM Naruto fairly casually and then with sage mode enhancements managed to off panel a guy who managed to sneak up on him with Hiraishin. Logically, Hashirama is not in any way getting blitzed - especially if he has countless clones on the battlefield that are not distinguishable from one another and with the ability to fuse with the mokutons that he launches on the battlefield.
> 
> ...



- last I checked madara before obtaining Hashi's SM  has already manage to put 6 rods in Hashi's back. ck

- oh, just as he did to Hashi, or are we forgetting this?


Also, Madara's feats are his feats, not Hashi's. 

or it will make Hashi a much easier target to his because he will be even faster. 
not to mention his sensing ability is going to increase and therefore it will be easier to dodge
Hashi's jutsus.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> Kai, stop saying he won't use his F jutsu for the sake if Hashirama, since when Minato doesn't use his FTG in a fight?
> 
> lol, you even have the nerves to say "pay any respect to in-character procedures"
> Please, show us when Minato stop using his FTG in a fight.


IC prevents fanatics to suggest jutsu or combinations in here that the manga would never entertain. Just a year ago, we had people in here reasoning BM Naruto creates hundreds of BM clones and solos. No where, when, or how would that ever happen.

Minato doesn't have what it takes to keep up a teleporting Kurama avatar for an entire fight against Hashirama.


----------



## Alex Payne (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> No.
> 
> "HE" & "HAS" & "HIS" NOT "THEY", "HAVE" & "THEIR"
> 
> ...


Hashirama was talking about chakra that was shared. Chakra that was shared was full Kyubi+Minato+Naruto as per previous pages. He didn't know details, he knew that Naruto did the sharing and later corrected himself on Kyubi. Not to mention that in Japanese it is possible to address people without singular/plural distinction(and without gender too iirc). 

Old Hiruzen was unable to pull Oro's soul. We saw Minato struggling when sealing 50% Kyubi. Considering Hashi's Senju cells hype and feats + Hashi casual trolling of Edo Tensei binding - it is indeed plausible that Minato would be struggling with pulling the soul of God of Shinobi out.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> IC prevents fanatics to suggest jutsu or combinations in here that the manga would never entertain. Just a year ago, we had people in here reasoning BM Naruto creates hundreds of BM clones and solos. No where, when, or how would that ever happen.
> 
> Minato doesn't have what it takes to keep up a teleporting Kurama avatar for an entire fight against Hashirama.


...Minato used the combination in the manga.

It's not ridiculous to suggest he'd utilize his signature move in life to help him defeat the God of Shinobi.

And you have nothing that suggests he can't port Kurama around as much as he pleases. With 50% of his reserves this wouldn't be difficult.

On a more logical note, one time is enough. If the statue is tagged, Minato ports to Hashirama's position on top of it and destroys him with a Senjutsu Rasengan. 

This really ins't relevant though, he can summon a clone and have him run in the opposite direction, tag the statue then teleport it away from Hashirama, and then crush him. 

At this point you're doing nothing more than wanking Hashirama. This common sense logic, tag, port, kill. If you cannot follow please feel free to exit the thread.



> Old Hiruzen was unable to pull Oro's soul. We saw Minato struggling after when sealing 50% Kyubi. Considering Hashi's Senju cells hype and feats + Hashi casual trolling of Edo Tensei binding - it is indeed plausible that Minato would be struggling with pulling the soul of God of Shinobi out.


Really nothing concrete in this statement. Hiruzen had a sword in his back, was over 60 years of age, and sealed both Senju brothers casually beforehand.

Soul ripping has nothing to do with chakra capacity. Souls existed before chakra existed, they are two separate entities. Minato was struggling because he just soul ripped a bijuu after previously being exhausted in maintaining the seal on him during Naruto's birth, warping a bijuudama, and warping a bijuu out of the village. 

Again, you have nothing concrete that suggests Hashirama would resist the Death Reaper, especially considering he did not the first time.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> IC prevents fanatics to suggest jutsu or combinations in here that the manga would never entertain. Just a year ago, we had people in here reasoning BM Naruto creates hundreds of BM clones and solos. No where, when, or how would that ever happen.
> 
> Minato doesn't have what it takes to keep up a teleporting Kurama avatar for an entire fight against Hashirama.



So? No one said Minato will use a million clones or something. 
What you were talking about is like if B for some God knows reason cannot be used with FTG. 

who said He will need to teleport him the entire day? 
it's fanny that you said that though, as Hashi's D raiders always assume that he will stay
some where and keep spamming his jutsu to no end!



alex payne said:


> Hashirama was talking about chakra that was shared. Chakra that was shared was full Kyubi+Minato+Naruto as per previous pages. He didn't know details, he knew that Naruto did the sharing and later corrected himself on Kyubi. Not to mention that in Japanese it is possible to address people without singular/plural distinction(and without gender too iirc).
> 
> Old Hiruzen was unable to pull Oro's soul. We saw Minato struggling when sealing 50% Kyubi. Considering Hashi's Senju cells hype and feats + Hashi casual trolling of Edo Tensei binding - it is indeed plausible that Minato would be struggling with pulling the soul of God of Shinobi out.



Dude your current explanation is even worst the previous one. They gave them SOME of their chakra not the entire dame thing, otherwise how the hell did they stay in BM if they gave ALL the chakra?

Also, if the Alliance have ALL the chakra, then how come the k11 got the BM cloak afterword? 
why not all the SA obtained BM? 

- But he was able to pull Hashi's. 
Also, the only reason for that is because he was old. Anyway, I'm not planning to debate fanfiction now, when Hashi show that feats then we can take about it.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> ...Minato used the combination in the manga.
> 
> It's not ridiculous to suggest he'd utilize his signature move in life to help him defeat the God of Shinobi.
> 
> ...


I'm not going to debate you on the whole thing because we have a fundamental difference of interpretation on how fights in the manga work. I don't feel that your suggestions, while logical, fit in with the logical _pattern_ of how fights proceed in canon. You have more KC-esque scenarios than ones that closely relate to the manga.

One thing though: Tell me why Madara with senjutsu reacting to Tobirama can't be translated to Hashirama reacting to Minato in a similar fashion?


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 20, 2014)

Hashirama wins this mid/high diff

Hypotectical BSM Minato would be insanely powerful however Hashirama is still the worst matchup for bijuus and jinchuurikis,, due to mokuton techniques,,,, 
SS defeated FULL 100% kyuubi armored with PS,, i dont see how 50% BSM Kyuubi can win this or compete with the firepower of FULL Kyuubi with PS 
CK (chojo kobetsu) after being hit by 11 PS infused TBB,, still managed to destroy PS,,,,its sheer offense is definitely penetrating the kurama avatar
S/T barrier cant do anything to SS as well since its not a thrown projectile but rather a juubi sized statue,,,, 
one touch from SS put the kyuubi to sleep,, meaning Minato would run out his BM/BSM,,, its AOE is simply  too large for FTG to effectively evade
anything below BM simply lacks the firepower in this battle to defeat someone with SM, that can even react to FTG,,, (so blitzing is also not happening), and has impressive healing abilities as well,,


----------



## Veracity (Feb 20, 2014)

Going to have to go with Hashirama clearly based on obvious interpretation. It's clearly evident that Kishi intends for Hashirama to be still stronger then Minato. BSM might equal this out, but BM Minato clearly loses I mean it's quite obvious.

I could make the damn argument that Dan could solo Minato based on his Justu, but it's quite obvious who's stronger.

And am I the only one who doesn't use damn calcs and AoE to measure the strength of attacks in a manga where he author is extremely inconsistent?  I'm still under the impression that the Buddah statue packs the power to tank 20 BM Naruto TBB's based on the fact that he's logically 50% of full Kurama. Even if a Jin is suppose to be stronger then the Bjuii, but by so much that some debaters consider 2 BM TBB's to destroy that thing ? Doesn't really make much sense tbh.

@elia, btw where the hell is Minato going to warp the Buddah statue ? The thing is the size of 100 Kuramas. Warping it around the battlefield will really do nothing.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

> =Likes boss;49898688]Going to have to go with Hashirama clearly based on obvious interpretation. It's clearly evident that Kishi intends for Hashirama to be still stronger then Minato. BSM might equal this out, but BM Minato clearly loses I mean it's quite obvious.


If kishi want Hashi to be the strongest he would have compared Naruto to him. But he does not do that for obvious reason which is if Naruto surpassed his father then he has surpassed all the others. That's why kishi compare Naruto to Minato since chapter 1 up until now. 



> I could make the damn argument that Dan could solo Minato based on his Justu, but it's quite obvious who's stronger.


No you couldn't since Minato's sealing jutsus seals the souls. 




> And am I the only one who doesn't use damn calcs and AoE to measure the strength of attacks in a manga where he author is extremely inconsistent?  I'm still under the impression that the Buddah statue packs the power to tank 20 BM Naruto TBB's based on the fact that he's logically 50% of full Kurama. Even if a Jin is suppose to be stronger then the Bjuii, but by so much that some debaters consider 2 BM TBB's to destroy that thing ? Doesn't really make much sense tbh.


lol, the TBB can be stronger, they are not all at the same power, see what Naruto & B did
to attack the GM. U_U



> @elia, btw where the hell is Minato going to warp the Buddah statue ? The thing is the size of 100 Kuramas. Warping it around the battlefield will really do nothing



To the sea as he did with the TBB? 
Also, throwing it anywhere will be more than enough in all honesty.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 20, 2014)

Hashirama takes the victory with low difficulty. 

Not much to discuss here.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia, Minato is going to have a hard time against Hashirama's terrain manipulation - BSM or not - and Bijuu powers actually make the guy weaker against someone that controls them. His version of Sage Mode is weak, too, and Bijuudama is the only technique worth talking about. Essentially, it's going to become a game of cat and mouse... but nothing beyond that. He isn't going to damage Hashirama.

Who knows if Minato is even capable of adding Senjutsu to Bijuudama, anyway...
He forced Naruto to do that.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

So, assuming that Minato actually lands a BSM rasengan, it won't kill Hashirama, and he will just regenerate any damage.  

Also, please stop calling who thinks Hashirama wins a stupid wanker.  It gives Atlantic Storm lots of work, and that's child labor.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Elia, Minato is going to have a hard time against Hashirama's terrain manipulation - BSM or not - and Bijuu powers actually make the guy weaker against someone that controls them. His version of Sage Mode is weak, too, and Bijuudama is the only technique worth talking about. Essentially, it's going to become a game of cat and mouse... but nothing beyond that. He isn't going to damage Hashirama.
> 
> Who knows if Minato is even capable of adding Senjutsu to Bijuudama, anyway...
> He forced Naruto to do that.



Even the Gokage did have a problem with that for God's sake.  

His version of SM is weak? It can't possibly weaker than Hashi's who counsn't scratch obito while Naruto did that with a normal rasengan.  

- lol, Minato's Rasengan was able to destroy obito's chakra arm which was able to destroy the 4 Hokages barrier. Also, Naruto in base destroyed Hashi's with some small rasengans. 

- lol, if he's in SM all of his jutsus are automatically have SM chakra.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> So, assuming that Minato actually lands a BSM rasengan, it won't kill Hashirama, and he will just regenerate any damage.
> 
> Also, please stop calling who thinks Hashirama wins a stupid wanker.  It gives Atlantic Storm lots of work, and that's child labor.



If Minato landed a rasengan 
1- He would place the FTG seal as he always does.
2- Kabuto has a regenerating ability, yet he couldn't move from Naruto's rasengan. 

- I'm talking about "low difficult" that's really stupid. 



King Itachi said:


> If anything, people are wanking Minato right now.
> 
> Please take a look at the poll, Elia.



in all honesty I expected the poll to be like this. lol
it's just like with itachi's fans, no matter what the other side gain, it won't change.

However, when it comes to the thread what you see

1- Hashi wins, no reason to debate. 
2- Minato can't use FTG ~> cuz Hashi
3- Minato can't use S/T barrier to teleport ~ > just because...

there is no logical explanation for anything. XD


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> If Minato landed a rasengan
> 1- He would place the FTG seal as he always does.
> 2- Kabuto has a regenerating ability, yet he couldn't move from Naruto's rasengan.
> 
> ...



As soon as I'm finished studying, I'll respond to your posts.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> As soon as I'm finished studying, I'll respond to your posts.



very well. Good luck with your study.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

Kai said:


> IC prevents fanatics to suggest jutsu or combinations in here that the manga would never entertain. Just a year ago, we had people in here reasoning BM Naruto creates hundreds of BM clones and solos. No where, when, or how would that ever happen.
> 
> Minato doesn't have what it takes to keep up a teleporting Kurama avatar for an entire fight against Hashirama.



Plus it takes time to build that amount of chakra.

Minato had to have Gamabunta stall in order to charge enough hiraishin chakra to warp the kyuubi and the bijuudama, and he also ran low after warping the alliance, so even if he can use giant repeated teleports, how many before he hits the phase where he need to replenish and recharge?

I don't really have anything else to add to this conversation.  AP, Bonly, Kai, and Ace have all said and covered anything I would mention.



> If Minato landed a rasengan
> 1- He would place the FTG seal as he always does.
> 2- Kabuto has a regenerating ability, yet he couldn't move from Naruto's rasengan.



Err, yeah.  And Kakashi got up two seconds after taking a SM rasengan to the gut, and Hashirama has the body and regeneration that let him hop out of a 9 bijuu group ground and pound.  Plus, Hashirama can meld into mokuton, where Minato can't follow even with a tag.  I don't see Hashirama getting tagged, and then suffering an endless inescapable rasengan barrage that keeps him in stun lock.

I also think Kabuto's cheap healing isn't nearly in the same clash as Hashirama's, but that's another thing.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wait, Pirates on Wheels, you claim Hashirama will regenerate from a Sage Mode or Biju Sage Mode Rasengan? Elia is right, that IS wanking, especially if a fucking kunai is lethal to Hashirama.



When was a kunai going to kill Hashirama?


----------



## Bonly (Feb 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When was a kunai going to kill Hashirama?



I believe he is referring to the below which was supposedly gonna do the job.

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Err, yeah.  And Kakashi got up two seconds after taking a SM rasengan to the gut, and Hashirama has the body and regeneration that let him hop out of a 9 bijuu group ground and pound.  Plus, Hashirama can meld into mokuton, where Minato can't follow even with a tag.  I don't see Hashirama getting tagged, and then suffering an endless inescapable rasengan barrage that keeps him in stun lock.
> 
> I also think Kabuto's cheap healing isn't nearly in the same clash as Hashirama's, but that's another thing.




1- Minato's arm was cut off, there was a source for the power after that. 
2- He can teleport him out in that case, or simply blow him up. 
3- Tell me about Hashi's reaction more please? He couldn't even dodge edo madara 6 times. 

4- Kabuto's healing was hyped to be better than Tsunade's in her prime.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 20, 2014)

I think Madara credited Hashirama's healing powers for being the reason he was able to be reckless / survive Bijuu pinball while alive. If that's anything indicative of how regenerative he is I think he can tank the rasengan without much issues.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

Bonly said:


> I believe he is referring to the below.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Well if Hashirama stabs himself and wills himself to die, while suppressing his own medical jutsu and refusing he aid of others it would probably happen eventually.

Though really I think we're supposed to take from that scene stuff about Hashirama's willingness to sacrifice himself, and how his sincerity won over Madara, and how he would do whatever it takes to change the world without sacrificing or hurting the brother he loves.  Stuff like that.  Not that a kunai will kill him or that Hashirama is too stupid to know how to commit suicide.  If Kishi had Hashirama charge up some ultra powerful jutsu, or secret suicide jutsu while stating how killing the god of shinobi was no easy task, it would have detracted from the scene.  

Option 2:  It was Shizune's poison kunai.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 20, 2014)

Please stop calling whoever disagrees with your opinion a 'wanker' or 'biased'. It's irritatingly obnoxious, terrible debating etiquette and in some cases, awfully ironic.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think Madara credited Hashirama's healing powers for being the reason he was able to be reckless / survive Bijuu pinball while alive. If that's anything indicative of how regenerative he is I think he can tank the rasengan without much issues.



Madara's arm was cut off by the Bijuus tails, but anyway, what about this rasengan?
he needed to talk to Itachi

it was able to destroy obito's chakra arms
he needed to talk to Itachi

and even damage the black rods.
he needed to talk to Itachi


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 20, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Please stop calling whoever disagrees with your opinion a 'wanker' or 'biased'. It's irritatingly obnoxious, terrible debating etiquette and in some cases, awfully ironic.


However Atlantic Storm, a lot of it IS warranted. Most of the arguments have just been going 'He's Hashirama, he wins low to no difficulty'. Or claiming a Sage Mode Rasengan won't kill him (even though his regeneration hasn't been tested), or ignoring obvious speed advantages.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Please stop calling whoever disagrees with your opinion a 'wanker' or 'biased'. It's irritatingly obnoxious, terrible debating etiquette and in some cases, awfully ironic.



it's not about disagreeing for God's sake! 
but, anyway. I'm sorry. (=


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 20, 2014)

I don't care if it's warranted or not; it's irritating. Take a look at your own arguments, what other people have been saying them, and do some self-assessment on both sides. This whole 'you disagree with my argument, so you're obviously a wanker' thing needs to stop.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 20, 2014)

He maybe more wounded by a larger rasengan provided Minato manages to score a direct hit, but I have my doubts it'd be able to outright kill him.

People such as Obito, Kakashi and Kakuzu have survived rasengans in the past-people with less durability than Madara demonstrated by surviving Bijuu-Pinball.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 20, 2014)

*"Take a look at your own arguments, what other people have been saying them, and do some self-assessment on both sides."*

There's a reason I said these words, but we're stopping this now. Resume on-topic discussion.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

Elia said:


> 1- Minato's arm was cut off, there was a source for the power after that.
> 2- He can teleport him out in that case, or simply blow him up.
> 3- Tell me about Hashi's reaction more please? He couldn't even dodge edo madara 6 times.
> 
> 4- Kabuto's healing was hyped to be better than Tsunade's in her prime.



Tsunade then revealed SS regeneration and astounded everyone.

Also what Lawrence said.  Bijuu pinball.

Also, Hashirama manipulated a mokuton hand to catch a perfect Susano blade by calculating the arc of the swing. 

Also, Hashirama dodged Madara and Kyuubi's assault by flipping around on the bits of rubble and such they sent flying with each massive area destroying attack they aimed at him.

Also, Hashirama pulled up the 5 gates to deflect a PS sword bijuudama that was moving at mountain crossing speed.  One that crossed a giant lake or ocean so fast you could still see the beginning of the wake it left when it first touched off over the beach after it exploded.  

For another time indicator, note that in that scan, the dust from trashing the rashoumon gates hadn't even settled by the time the blast exploded.  Dust settles pretty darn quick.  You can see from that panel to the one where Hashirama notes that it crossed to the other side, it's already gone from a cloud that engulfed all 5 gigantor gates, to just a few feet over Hashirama, and keeps getting lower as they converse.

All of that was in base.  Hashirama has a sage mode too, and with it he gets spider sense.  The kind that lets Madara fight without eyeballs.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

> =The Pirate on Wheels;49899826]Tsunade then revealed SS regeneration and astounded everyone.


True


> Also what Lawrence said.  Bijuu pinball.



He was covered in blood though. U_U
and then he lost his arm. 





> Also, Hashirama manipulated a mokuton hand to catch a perfect Susano blade by calculating the arc of the swing.


Minato's using Chakra arms and Kurama's tails to pull out the Bijuus from obito and to get rides of obito's chakra arms which was more than enough to destroy the Hokage's barrier
calculating the arc
calculating the arc
calculating the arc


> Also, Hashirama dodged Madara and Kyuubi's assault by flipping around on the bits of rubble and such they sent flying with each massive area destroying attack they aimed at him.



Irrelevant, as base Minato already proved that he's much faster than Hashirama.  


> Also, Hashirama pulled up the 5 gates to deflect a PS sword bijuudama that was moving at mountain crossing speed.  One that crossed a giant lake or ocean so fast you could still see the beginning of the wake it left when it first touched off over the beach after it exploded.


Minato dealt with MUCH stronger attack in base.



> Also, since he's the one doing the jutsu he can teleport it as well. Not to mention he can teleport
> behind Hashirama and anywhere and fire it off. His fighting style is different than madara's.
> For another time indicator, note that in that scan, the dust from trashing the rashoumon gates hadn't even settled by the time the blast exploded.  Dust settles pretty darn quick.  You can see from that panel to the one where Hashirama notes that it crossed to the other side, it's already gone from a cloud that engulfed all 5 gigantor gates, to just a few feet over Hashirama, and keeps getting lower as they converse.
> 
> All of that was in base.  Hashirama has a sage mode too, and with it he gets spider sense.  The kind that lets Madara fight without eyeballs.



Minato dealing with the Juubi's TBB was a MUCH bigger feat than Hashi's feats, and that was in base as well. 
Of course unless you believe that Kurama's TBB with PS's swords are actually stronger than the Juubi's TBB?

base Minato's speed >>>>>>>>> Hashirama's. So, even if SM speed will increase Hashi's speed, it's still no where near Minato's speed in BSM.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

> He was covered in blood though. U_U
> and then he lost his arm.



The blood was mainly from getting Gaara's bijuu wind amped setetsu shot into him.

The arm came off....after all nine bijuu rampaged on his face for a long time after the pinball sequence.  Madara jumped at the bijuu and told them to do their worst, because he had Hashirama's regeneration and could do that and live.  I just don't think one of Minato's rasengan's is going to out-do or equal or come bear that kind of sustained multi-attack multi-party bashing.



> Minato's using Chakra arms and Kurama's tails to pull out the Bijuus from obito and to get rides of obito's chakra arms which was more than enough to destroy the Hokage's barrier



We're talking about how base Hashirama has good reaction?



> Minato dealt with MUCH stronger attack in base.



Again, we're talking about Hashirama's reaction speeds.  Not the scale of attacks dealt with.



> Minato dealing with the Juubi's TBB was a MUCH bigger feat than Hashi's feats, and that was in base as well.
> Of course unless you believe that Kurama's TBB with PS's swords are actually stronger than the Juubi's TBB?



The power of an attack doesn't have anything to do with your reaction speeds.  For example, dodging Early Part II Naruto's oodama rasengan isn't more impressive that dodging Minato's base rasegan, just because the oodama rasegnan is bigger and more destructive.  For another example, dodging a punch from Tsunade is not more impressive than dodging a punch from Raikage by merit of Tsunade's punch packing more of a punch if it lands.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 20, 2014)

> =The Pirate on Wheels;49900041]The blood was mainly from getting Gaara's bijuu wind amped setetsu shot into him.


mm, The resengan should be stronger than that sand though.  


> The arm came off....after all nine bijuu rampaged on his face for a long time after the pinball sequence.  Madara jumped at the bijuu and told them to do their worst, because he had Hashirama's regeneration and could do that and live.  I just don't think one of Minato's rasengan's is going to out-do or equal or come bear that kind of sustained multi-attack multi-party bashing.


Madara' was using the Susanoo as well. 


> We're talking about how base Hashirama has good reaction?


Yes, my point was, his reaction & speed is inferior to Minato's, so id does not matter how fast he was because that's not going to help him against someone who's faster than him. Also,
see here
1
Minato threw the Kunai and teleport to where madara is before Kakashi can even use his Kamui! I don't see how Hashi is suppose to deal with this situation. Unless of course you think
he is as fast as current madara.  





> The power of an attack doesn't have anything to do with your reaction speeds.  For example, dodging Early Part II Naruto's oodama rasengan isn't more impressive that dodging Minato's base rasegan, just because the oodama rasegnan is bigger and more destructive.  For another example, dodging a punch from Tsunade is not more impressive than dodging a punch from Raikage by merit of Tsunade's punch packing more of a punch if it lands.



True. U_U


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 20, 2014)

> mm, The resengan should be stronger than that sand though.



The rasengan won't have the piercing power.  It will mess up his insides, but Hashi's regen, which is Tsunade's regen, which is Madara's regen, heals organ damage.  SS fixed all of Tsunade's inside in a moment after Mabui's teleport.



> Madara' was using the Susanoo as well.



Not for the pinball section, and for the latter his Susano got smashed to oblivion...hence how they got his arm off.  That in itself should tell how strong those impacts were.



> Yes, my point was, his reaction & speed is inferior to Minato's, so id does not matter how fast he was because that's not going to help him against someone who's faster than him. Also,
> see here
> 1
> Minato threw the Kunai and teleport to where madara is before Kakashi can even use his Kamui! I don't see how Hashi is suppose to deal with this situation. Unless of course you think
> he is as fast as current madara.



SM Naruto's speed was below that of Sandaime Raikage, but his Sage Mode allowed him to sense danger and sharpen his reactions to a level that allowed him to counter attack his rush.  

That's in the same way SM Kabuto was likely slower than Itachi and maybe Sasuke, or can't straight up out speed a Susano Arrow, but was able to keep up and evade and react and attack them by merit of having Sage Sensing precognition.  Even though Sasuke was aiming with sharingan that lets him predict his opponent's next moves.  

So my point isn't that Hashirama is faster or as fast as Minato, it's that's he's close enough, that if you give him the boost and danger sensing from sage mode, that he'll be able react with his ninjutsu and not look like he's standing still.  He might still be pressed by Minato's speed, and forced to fight defensively, because it's Minato, but not out helplessly outclassed.  I also think Hashirama's jutsu and melding and move-set is very well suited to fighting defencively, and attacking and blocking everywhere at once, so there's that too.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 20, 2014)

αce said:


> Are we just going to ignore that a mokuton dragon _without_ sage mode enhancements forced Naruto out of his bijuu mode? Are we going to ignore the fact that Hashirama has an innate ability to drop sealing shrines in sage mode that subdued the juubi?




The Mokuryū forced Naruto to deactivate the avatar after a sustained wrestling match, and Minato can just avoid that situation all together with Hiraishin. Even if he couldn't, Naruto destroyed the dragon with a body flicker; it isn't that durable. As for the sealing gates....same deal. If they're fast enough to tag something that isn't mindless or a hundred miles wide, Minato doesn't have to remained pinned.

When has binding or something of the sort ever worked on Minato? That doesn't even make sense taking his signature ability into account.




αce said:


> Basically a base Madara blitzed SM Naruto fairly casually and then with sage mode enhancements managed to off panel a guy who managed to sneak up on him with Hiraishin. Logically, Hashirama is not in any way getting blitzed - especially if he has countless clones on the battlefield that are not distinguishable from one another and with the ability to fuse with the mokutons that he launches on the battlefield.




Edo Tobirama, who is slower than Edo Base Minato, is _drastically_ reflexively inferior to a hypothetical alive Bijuu-Sage Minato. The alive boost is one thing, and the Sage Mode boost is a bigger factor, but the Bijuu Mode boost, which turned 3.5 Base Naruto into someone that shit on v2 Raikage's showings, makes Minato hands down infinitely faster than any version of Hashirama. And by the way, Madara would be faster than Base Hashirama because of his Dojutsu reflex enhancement. 

The clone thing is a viable strategy for Hashirama to take though.



Kai said:


> There will be no teleporting Kurama avatar if we pay any respect to in-character procedures, and even if he did, it wouldn't be for very long (transporting Kurama avatar constantly in a fight is no cakewalk).




Minato & Naruto did rely on Hiraishin while in full Bijuu Mode to attack Obito. They just used Tobirama to actually activate the Jutsu since he was the one with the mark on Obito's back. I wouldn't say it's out of character for Minato to use FTG in BM. 

Stamina isn't a problem. Base Minato had trouble teleporting the full Kyuubi after using other taxing techniques like Kuchiyose. Teleporting half-Kurama with the addition of Kurama's Chakra reserves is cake.


----------



## Kai (Feb 20, 2014)

Okay Rocky's here. We have ourselves a debate


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

Rocky vs Kai.

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT


----------



## Azula (Feb 21, 2014)

Do people on here belive Hashirama is gonna regenrate from a bijuu mode rasengan 

When Edo tensei has trouble regenerating from a far smaller rasengan 





That rasengan is 50 times bigger than any human 

Hashirama would be reduced to dust 

but of course Hashirama will regenerate back from dust because he is Hashirama


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 21, 2014)

Elia said:


> *If kishi want Hashi to be the strongest he would have compared Naruto to him. But he does not do that for obvious reason which is if Naruto surpassed his father then he has surpassed all the others. That's why kishi compare Naruto to Minato since chapter 1 up until now. *



Kishi portrays Hashirama to be the god of shinobi,, something that naruto has never been even come close to in terms of authors intent
according to kishi and by feats,, Hashirama > Minato,, Hashirama > Naruto 
deal with it,,, 
their 50% Kyuubi are not competing against FULL 100% Kyuubi armored with PS,, which Hashirama still managed to defeat
Naruto & Minato are compared since they are father son,,jus like Sasuke & Itachi are compared since they are brothers,,,,


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 21, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> Do people on here belive Hashirama is gonna regenrate from a bijuu mode rasengan
> 
> When Edo tensei has trouble regenerating from a far smaller rasengan
> 
> ...



does Muu have SM healing??? No 
is Muu a senju?? No 
Normal Rasengans wont even scratch Hashiramas Wood dragons,, let alone SS 
dnt compare Muu to Hashirama,,,, they are tiers apart


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

Minato can't use Galactic Rasengan, and that giant one is not what anyone was talking about I don't think.

I was talking about the one he tried to use on Madara.


----------



## Azula (Feb 21, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> does Muu have SM healing??? No





every edo tensei has regenerative abilities



limbs blown off get regenerated, bodies getting blown apart get regenerated

which is far superior renegeration than hashirama/tsunade's healing abilities shown 

even madara who possessed hashirama regenerative abilitues after losing an arm had to take a new arm from zetsu instead of regrowing it own his own 





Kifflom!! said:


> is Muu a senju?? No



senjus getting killed by arrows and kunais 



tobirama himself nearly died against two pseudo jinchurikis


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 21, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato can't use Galactic Rasengan, and that giant one is not what anyone was talking about I don't think.


If Minato can go BSM here, he should be able to create it. Even normal Biju Mode Rasengan would obliterate Hashirama point blank.


> I was talking about the one he tried to use on Madara.


And if Minato uses Senpo: Rasengan on Hashirama's face before Hashirama can even react, how doesn't he win?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 21, 2014)

If Hashirama murders Minato before he can get out of bed in the morning, how doesn't Hashirama win?

Like, okay, if you think Hashirama is going to be speed blitzed and disintegrated by a mountain of vorpal energy, then yeah, you're going to think he loses.

I think Hashirama can take a senpo regular sized rasengan to the face, because his auto heal will regenerate brains and redonkadonk plot device body won't be as badly damaged as one might otherwise expect.  I also don't find that situation very likely, because blitzes don't really happen between same level people.  If I thought BSM Minato, and by extension, BSM Naruto, were tiers above Hashirama, then that might change, but I don't.  The kind of praise Hashirama is giving out to them is stuff like, "Wow!  That's almost as much chakra as me!" and that kind stuff.  Maybe by the end of this war that will change.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Feb 21, 2014)

I don't think any of us will ever be able to agree. There are hugely differing opinions on how strong Minato and Hashirama are.


----------



## LostSelf (Feb 21, 2014)

I wouldn't be surprised if Hashirama's pain tolerance and resilence is bigger than Tsunade too, Kishi has been hyping him pretty good since he was introduced. That said, a FRS that completelt dwarfed Kakuzu left him intact, i wouldn't be surprised if Hashirama's byakugo version, plus the likely body endurance he gets in this mode can help him regenerate.

I don't see Minato one shotting Hashirama or blitzing the God of shinobi from the get to go (Kishi even let him out disabling him), nor outlasting him either. If he manages to teleport that huge statue, nothing indicates that Hashirama can't bring it back. And a Biju dama doesn't look enough to destroy it, asumming it can regenerate too

And if said statue absorbs chakra, well...


----------



## Veracity (Feb 21, 2014)

Considering base Hashirama can casually react to a Madara that can casually blitz SM Naruto( could easily react to Sandaime Raikage) I do not see SM Hashirama being blitzed by even BSM Minato. I think people are assuming that BSM Minato can move faster then he probabaly really can. I mean lol , Juubito was barely able to react to an FTG Tagged Tobirama and was not able to react to a BM cloaked Resengan from Naruto. But on the other hand was able to react perfectly fine to BM Minato + BSM Naruto combination, that was FTG'd to him.

I just personally do not see Minato being able to heavily pressure the God of Shinobi simply with his speed. Especially in Kishis eyes. 

Also it's to note that Madara was able to react to arguably the fastest attack in the manga so far( FTG Tobirama slash, regular FTG attack was able to almost blitz Juubito) with just Hashirma Sage sencing.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

This is probably useless, but since I wrote it, then who the hell cares. lol

in my opinion Minato is superior to Hashirama. Talking in a count the the highest of power they showed, so what does that mean is I'm including Kurama in Minato's arsenal as well. 

First of all, base Minato is much faster than Hashirama as was proven by the manga (Regardless if you believe it's FTG or not) as we can see here that he arrived before the other Hokages [1][2]. That's beside his *obvious* advantage in term of speed, so there is no need to go in depth in this regard. 

Now, the second important point is the fact that Minato can separate his Kunais quickly and effectively we saw that when he covered a huge area around the Juubi [1][2]. Even Tobirama who was hailed as the fastest shinobi praised him for that [1]. Now, as far as I know, hashi does not have any jutsu that as big as the Juubi or the area around it (notice that Minato did it base) so, having Knaui far away all around the battlefield is going to help Minato a lot to teleport for any case when needed. We also know that Minato uses tons of Kunais when fighting, examples of that would be [][]. He uses that to attack or dodge the others' attacks, and for example he dodged A's attack who was considered to be the fastest shinobi [][2]. Therefore, dodging Hashirama's jutsus should not be as hard since they are not as fast, and we saw the Gokage getting out of the WoF area of effect rather easily [1][2]. It's just madara attacked them after that and forced them to return to the jutsus' AoE, even with that Onoki was able to stay awake and destroy it with his Jinton. 

Now, unlike the Gokage, when Minato teleport Hashi can't possibly know to where he's going to teleport, so he can't use the same thing that madara used to force Minato to go to its AoE. Not to mention the TBB has a greater power than Onoki's jinton, so it shouldn't be hard to blow it up completely.

Another thing that Hashi has is his gates to pin down the others like he tried to do that against, Juubi, obito, and madara. However,
that won't work very much for him here because. 1- Minato can teleport himself. 2- Minato can teleport anything touches his chakra, and 3 he can use S/T barrier to redirect it before it hits him. So, I'm really not seeing much of what he can do with that. 

Hashi clones are fodder's level as proven by madara [1] (not to mention they have no feats anyway). 
Also, Minato is a sensor and he can know about the clones as shown before [1]. Not sure if I can use this, but since Minato is a perfect Jin he should also be able to sense the emotions as Naruto & Mito, if that was the case, then that just erase any chance to Hashi's clones to fool Minato. 

Hashi has also his genjutsu, but I'm not sure how is that going to help him here, Minato is a perfect Jin and he can sense as well, so the genjutsu is basically useless against him. U_U

Another thing of Hashi's jutsu that has a great AoE is his Nativity of a World of Trees. As great as it seems, but this jutsu has been defeated at least 2 times. The first one by Hiruzen [1] and for those who are planning to say "No, Hashirama was weaker" too bad, because first of all Hiruzen was also weaker than his prime self, and second he showed the ability to destroy even the god Tree's roots [1][2]. So, unless you think Hashi's wood are superior to the Tree's then that's not an excuse. The second time, Naruto's clone was also able to destroy it with some rasengans [1]. Now, for Minato he can use different methods to deal with that. He can use his FTG to teleport to somewhere else, his shunshin,  TBB to blow it up, or his Rasengan [1][2][3]. The Rasengan was able to destroy the chakra arms (which was enough to destroy the Hokages' barrier)  and even damage the black rods. Also, another thing to consider is even if Hashirama was able to catch him, Minato can simply teleport as he did against the god Tree [1][2]. If Minato and Tobirama can have seals on a safe place [1][2] which can be several KM long [1], it's not very rational to think Hashi's jutsus who pales  in comparison will cover all the places to the point there won't be any seal on safe area! Not to mention that after Hashi uses his jutsus the remaining woods will not be used in the battle afterword as we saw in the battle between madara & Gokage for example.

Another thing to consider is Hashi has also some great defensive jutsus like Quintuple Rashōmon &  Hōbi Technique. The first one may be very good to protect him from from a TBB that fired off in front of him right away as we saw in the manga (The TBB did not explode though), so it may protect him if Minato used a TBB in the same way Madara did, but what if Minato teleported behind him or somewhere else and used it against Hashirama, how would he deal with it in that situation? What if Hashi did indeed manage to redirect the attack with his jutsu, but Minato teleported back at him? Because if Minato used the TBB that means it does have his chakra, and in that case he would be able to teleport it [1][2][3].

So, even though Hashirama has those good defensive moves, it's not guaranteed that they will work the same way they did against madara, since Minato's fighting style and abilities are different. 

Another jutsu of Hashirama is the Hotei Technique, honestly what is the point of this anyway? Even IF Minato somehow was not able to use his shunshin and they were able to catch him, what stops him from teleporting? Or he can use his own chakra arms 
[1][2]. I don't really now how can this help. 

Hashi also has his wooden human, and wooden dragon, which he usually use them together. Although, the wooden human may seems great and all for being able to stop PS swords, but we haven't really seen any offensive abilities from it, have we? Also, the wooden Human and wooden Dragon were blown up by the TBB as we saw [1][2].
So, even if the Human guy returned it (assuming Minato won't teleport the TBB out of its hand) the explosion will still finish the wooden human, while Hashi will survive, but even Kurama has a great defense as we saw against the Juubi's TBB [1]. That beside given Naruto the power to redirect 5 TBBs..etc. Notice that was not even with SM. 

Now, we also saw the Wooden Dragon got destroyed by FRS and Naruto's war speed [1][2]. so, it shouldn't be all that hard as well, that's if we assumed the wooden Dragon will catch him anyway. 

The only thing let in Hashirama's jutsus (that we know of) is his Buddha. I honestly don't see how would that work against Minato exactly? 
Minato can teleport it away with S/T barrier just like how he did to the Juubi's TBB which was bigger than the Buddha by far. Or, if that's so hard to believe, what strop Minato from teleporting behind the Buddha and uses his chakra arms to touch the Buddha to teleport it with FTG? 

Now, as from where does Minato have all this chakra? Simple, Hashi's chakra was comparable to BM at most, now with SM Minato logically have more chakra than Hashirama anyway [1].

Returning to the speed advantage, Minato in the last chapter showed insane speed of throwing the Kunai, entering SM, teleporting and using Resengan, before kakashi could even use his Kamui [1]. Yes, the Kamui that everyone says "GG" when it comes to it, Minato has proven that he's faster than that twice! So, if Hashi can't dodge the Kamui and a lot of people agree on that, then how is he supposed to dodge Minato's attack exactly? If you think it's ok because it won't kill Hashi, no honey, it's not Okay because if Minato did it then he will placed his FTG seal on him, then he can attack him at any time and Hashi will have nothing to do to stop that. 

I don't believe that someone from Minato's level won't be able to even touch Hashirama for one time as his fans want us to believe! Hashirama couldn't even dodge edo madara's attacks with the black rods 4 times at least [1][2]. So I don't see why we should assume that Minato won't even touch him!


----------



## Trojan (Feb 22, 2014)

worst come to worst, Minato can use his raper death to end both of their lives. The jutsu can't be seen or sensed, unless it touches you, and even then it will make all the jutsus unusable. 

Finally, we know Hashi's full power, but he's out now, and Minato is
still there and has at least 1 unrevealed jutsu that may or may not change a lot of things. 

I couldn't put that in the previous post. U_U


----------



## Jagger (Feb 22, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> Do people on here belive Hashirama is gonna regenrate from a bijuu mode rasengan
> 
> When Edo tensei has trouble regenerating from a far smaller rasengan
> 
> ...


Edo Tensei's regeneration speed rate varies, you know. For example, when Madara was struck with Jinton or when the meteor destroyed his body as well, he recovered fairly quickly.

But, yes, Hashirama recovering to a small Bijuudama to the chest or something like that is quite doubtful he will survive as we haven't seen him take on anything of such level without a protection.

I mean, the possibility of him recovering is out there, but it's not like the enemy will stop attacking. But, if I remember correctly, Minato hasn't shown to produce a Bijuudama of such size.


----------



## Pitbull00000 (Feb 23, 2014)

minato is Very strong but hashirama wins easily


----------



## Lurko (Feb 24, 2014)

I have no idea who wins tbh Bsm plus Ftg is one serious combo but Hashi is just as scary.


----------



## Legend777 (Feb 24, 2014)

αce said:


> Last I checked Madara before obtaining the Rikudou's abilities managed to react to a hiraishin from Tobirama at near point blank. And he was signifcantly faster than SM Naruto in base (Hashirama commented that he "regained his old powers" after using such speed)..



Last time I checked a senju enhanced  Madara is not Hashirama.

And he barely managed to dodge a shunshin blitz  from a man who admitted that his shunshin pales in comparison to a base Minato .


----------



## Senjuclan (Feb 24, 2014)

Legend777 said:


> Last time I checked a senju enhanced  Madara is not Hashirama.
> 
> And he barely managed to dodge a shunshin blitz  from a man who admitted that his shunshin pales in comparison to a base Minato .



Funny how you say Madara is not Hashirama but then you say he is enhanced by Hashirama's abilities. What allowed him to save his skin was sage mode danger sensing, Hashirama's ability.

Furthermore, tobirama did not use shunshin, he used hiraishin to attack Madara


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 24, 2014)

PS  coated Kyuubi > BM.

Budha gattling punches, Minato dies.


----------

