# These Espada vs Gecko Moria



## Karn of Zeon (Nov 19, 2008)

grimmjow, Ulquirroa, Neliel, noitra, halibel, and zommari vs the lord of depths(or was it deeps? ) who wins?

they can go release and moria is Asguard form at nightime


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## BAD BD (Nov 19, 2008)

Grimmjow cuts his head off.


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## Orion (Nov 19, 2008)

GJ does nothing,asgard moria destroys them.


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## Kuya (Nov 19, 2008)

Moria takes their shadows during the day.

At night, Asgard Moria wrecks them.


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## Herekic (Nov 19, 2008)

zomari nails the big and slow moria in the head with his amor.

espada win.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 19, 2008)

If you are strong enough, you can break out of Amor, Moria is definetly strong enough.


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## Herekic (Nov 19, 2008)

> If you are strong enough, you can break out of Amor, Moria is definetly strong enough.




what?


when did anyone ever do this?


also him hittign the head means he controls the brain. moria would not be able to do anything.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 19, 2008)

Zommari's default target is not the head, and since CIS is on, he ain't gonna be targeting Moria's head until a lengthy exposition and possibly amoring Moria's limbs.

Not that I believe Moria could win against all the Espada combined.


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## Herekic (Nov 19, 2008)

> Zommari's default target is not the head, and since CIS is on, he ain't gonna be targeting Moria's head until a lengthy exposition and possibly amoring Moria's limbs.
> 
> Not that I believe Moria could win against all the Espada combined.




I'm sure against a hug monster he'd try and end it as fast as possible.


also it was not stated they where in character, so this thread assumed they are all going all out(as in trying to win as quickly and effectively as possible)


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 19, 2008)

CIS is always assumed unless otherwise stated.

Verily, it beeth in the book of rules.


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## Shin_Yagami (Nov 19, 2008)

They would all Sonido around him and then would Cero the crap out of Moria, the battle would take about 5 seconds...Tops.
Come on Moria stands no chance against all of them at the same time, especially if they're all released....Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more  Dragonball-ish.


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## Lord Genome (Nov 19, 2008)

Hafock. said:


> Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more  Dragonball-ish.


wait what now


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## Herekic (Nov 19, 2008)

> They would all Sonido around him and then would Cero the crap out of Moria, the battle would take about 5 seconds...Tops.
> Come on Moria stands no chance against all of them at the same time, especially if they're all released....Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more Dragonball-ish.
> __________________




aside from amor, or possible gran rey cero, not much will hurt asgard moria. 


bleach is not even approaching early DBZ, btw. radditz would solo bleach, and anyone after him...well, you get the idea


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## lambda (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah Moria is slow and weak. I mean it's not like he outran Luffy and survived a beating from Nightmare Luffy. Not at all.


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## C. Hook (Nov 20, 2008)

Hafock. said:


> They would all Sonido around him and then would Cero the crap out of Moria, the battle would take about 5 seconds...Tops.
> Come on Moria stands no chance against all of them at the same time, especially if they're all released....Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more  Dragonball-ish.



...

...

Narutomania immigrant?

Moria shits on Grimmjow, Nnoitra, Neliel, and Zommari. Ulquiorra probably wins. Halibel has not been shown in true combat yet.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Ulq's current feats see him being stomped horribly. Unless you're implying that Ulq can take a beating from Nightmare Luffy AND Gear 2+3.
Thriller Bark-cracking punch ftfw.


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## Lina Inverse (Nov 20, 2008)

Hafock. said:


> They would all Sonido around him and then would Cero the crap out of Moria, the battle would take about 5 seconds...Tops.
> Come on Moria stands no chance against all of them at the same time, especially if they're all released....Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more  Dragonball-ish.


You serious?


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## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Didn't Moria's Shadow Doppleganger/Clone, Doppleman, evenly fight against Gear 2 Luffy? My memory of Thriller Bark is pretty vague.

Also wrong OBD section, should be in the manga/anime battledome.


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## Zoidberg (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Didn't Moria's Shadow Doppleganger/Clone, Doppleman, evenly fight against Gear 2 Luffy? My memory of Thriller Bark is pretty vague.
> 
> Also wrong OBD section, should be in the manga/anime battledome.



That was just base luffy.


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## Danchou (Nov 20, 2008)

I don't see Moria winning. He's not fast enough to tag and beat the Espada alltogether whereas they can relatively easily get their (broken) attacks on him as they seem much faster. In fact I think Grimm Jow can solo. He has the destructive force and power to take him out in a similar manner to how Luffy did him. He just doesn't seem really suited to fight against such a melee fighter.

That is unless he tries to steal their shadows, but it's a moot point since they can prevent that and they've got their techniques to counter as well. And brick bat can only take him so far.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> I don't see Moria winning. *He's not fast enough to tag and beat the Espada alltogether* whereas they can relatively easily get their (broken) attacks on him as they seem much faster. In fact I think Grimm Jow can solo. He has the destructive force and power to take him out in a similar manner to how Luffy did him. He just doesn't seem really suited to fight against such a melee fighter.
> 
> That is unless he tries to steal their shadows, but it's a moot point since they can prevent that and they've got their techniques to counter as well. And brick bat can only take him so far.




Because he didn't nail Luffy with a punch, right? Which split Thriller Bark?


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## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> I don't see Moria winning. He's not fast enough to tag and beat the Espada alltogether whereas they can relatively easily get their (broken) attacks on him as they seem much faster. In fact I think Grimm Jow can solo. He has the destructive force and power to take him out in a similar manner to how Luffy did him. He just doesn't seem really suited to fight against such a melee fighter.
> 
> That is unless he tries to steal their shadows, but it's a moot point since they can prevent that and they've got their techniques to counter as well. And brick bat can only take him so far.



GJ<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<nm luffy in power or speed,gear 3+2 still took several hits guess what?they both>>>>>>>>>gj power as well,he demolishes them.


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## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Hafock. said:


> They would all Sonido around him and then would Cero the crap out of Moria, the battle would take about 5 seconds...Tops.
> Come on Moria stands no chance against all of them at the same time, especially if they're all released....Against one of the weaker ones he might stand a chance but Bleach powerlevels are much higher then OP ones, Bleach is more  Dragonball-ish.




Yes and no.

OP got the physical power, Bleach got the energy beams


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Moria is actually quite fast considering he outran base Luffy casually. He also got the drop on Nico Robin. He just looks slow.


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> In fact I think Grimm Jow can solo. He has the destructive force and power to take him out in a similar manner to how Luffy did him. He just doesn't seem really suited to fight against such a melee fighter.



lol no he doesn't have the "destructive force and power to take him out" 

Grimmjow is a building buster at most, something base Luffy is

Moria got up from a gruesome beating by Nightmare Luffy, who was tossing Odz around like a ragdoll and sent him packing hundreds of meters away with a single punch

He also took a bunch of Jet Bazookas and two blows from a Gear 2nd and 3rd combination and STILL didn't go down

What the fuck is Grimmjow going to do to take him out

Moria casts Black Box on his furry ass and squashes him like a roach



> OP got the physical power, Bleach got the energy beams



OP seems to have the edge even when it comes to "energy beams"

Has a Cero or whatever bullshit they use ever made as much damage as a Raigoh or Kizaru's laser beam?


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> OP seems to have the edge even when it comes to "energy beams"
> 
> Has a Cero or whatever bullshit they use ever made as much damage as a Raigoh or Kizaru's laser beam?



Raigoh vs Cero 

But no it hasnt, at all. Especialy not compared to Raigoh (Cant remember how much damage the laser beam did)


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Even Naruto has the edge in "ENERGY BEAMS"


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> Even Naruto has the edge in "ENERGY BEAMS"


Bleach has ILLUZIONZ!


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> Even Naruto has the edge in "ENERGY BEAMS"



plz dont bullshit


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> plz dont bullshit



He is right though, atleast compared to Socket Pains attack and Hachibis chakra blast.


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## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> I cant recall cero (Normal one) being a buildingbuster even




that might be True, but imagine what 2 Ceros like the one's Ulquiorra fired could do In our world.

It would be a street buster, each beam taking down every house on there respective side of the road.


I could see that Cero go through anything from 3 to 20 Houses.

The main question is what is hit if it's a holding wall or if it ain't.


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

its funny how you people power scale OP but you dont powerscale bleach 

vega busted that building with a cero so an espada's cero should be atleast a multiple times more than that not to even mention a gran ray cero which sent shock waves when it was launched


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> that might be True



Nah, i remembered wrong. I didnt take the current arc into account when i said that.

Still, a cero isnt anywhere near a raigoh.


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## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> Nah, i remembered wrong. I didnt take the current arc into account when i said that.
> 
> Still, a cero isnt anywhere near a raigoh.




Well the Raigoh is that Bird shot right?

It cut that steel ship yes, but because it did that doesn't mean that a Cero couldn't. 

Look at apache by Accident she bended Iron bars, though she complained about it it seemed mostly to be for Sun Sun making a fool of her rather then hitting the bars.


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> plz dont bullshit



plz show me something from Bleach with the destructive scale of Hachibi's chakra cannon

thx


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Actually, I doubt they can match Pein's facelaser.


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

didnt i already cover that part with my previous post ? 

zetta also my previous post


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> didnt i already cover that part with my previous post ?



no i asked u to show something from Bleach with teh same destructive scale than Hachibi's chakra cannon

u didnt show anything

thx


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> didnt i already cover that part with my previous post ?
> 
> zetta also my previous post



I'm sorry, did we powerscale anything?

On panel destruction > cero powerscaling.


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

but if i were to make a grimmjow vs mihawk thread 

i wonder who will win


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

That's what I'd call Hamaru style powerscaling

Far too vague to be worth anything

We just know Grand Rey Cero is building destroying +

Ain't that interesting


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> but if i were to make a grimmjow vs mihawk thread
> 
> i wonder who will win



Non-sequitor. This and that have nothing to do with eachother.


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## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Really is to bad we never got to see the limit of the Soukyoku's destructive force.


though Bleach got something more powerful then Nukes in the ritual to make the Ouken.

the problem though is how much time is needed to perform the ritual and it is limited to the areas covered by the spot with High reiatsu


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Non-sequitor. This and that have nothing to do with eachother.



im sure you said On panel destruction > cero powerscaling.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Well the Raigoh is that Bird shot right?



Uh.. Raigoh was the islandbusting attack.



> It cut that steel ship yes, but because it did that doesn't mean that a Cero couldn't.



Assosiation fallacy.


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> im sure you said On panel destruction > cero powerscaling.



Uhu and Mihawk is an energy beam now?


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

but its the same concept zetta


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> but its the same concept zetta



Wrong. You're comparing an energy attack with a power of building+ to someone stated repeatedly as the top of a verse.

There's a big difference. You don't really need powerscaling for Mihawk because we know he's stronger than people who would hand Grimmjow's ass on a platter. However, having the vague distinction of building+ requires a lot of powerscaling.


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## Danchou (Nov 20, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Because he didn't nail Luffy with a punch, right? Which split Thriller Bark?


You are aware that he needed brick bat to do that, right? I was talking about that his speed would likely not be able to tag a sonido using Espada.



Orion said:


> GJ<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<nm luffy in power or speed,gear 3+2 still took several hits guess what?they both>>>>>>>>>gj power as well,he demolishes them.


It's only Moria here. And Asgard Moria went down after just a few gear 2/3 punches.



Aldric said:


> lol no he doesn't have the "destructive force and power to take him out"
> 
> Grimmjow is a building buster at most, something base Luffy is
> 
> ...


That you classify Grimm Jow as a buildingbuster at max doesn't say much. Luffy is also just a buildingbuster and he was powerful enough to hurt Moria with those hits. The term buildingbusting doesn't convey the proper distinction between people of different classes of strength. Kizaru for instance is technically also a buildingbuster, but his feats show a distinct difference in scale that (in)arguably overshadows theirs.

As for whether Grimm Jow would be able to replicate the destructive force that was needed to take out Moria, I'd say yes based on things like his Gran Rey Cero link 1 link 2, his spikes link 1 or his Descargon link 1 link 2. And since I don't see Moria being able to avoid those due to a speed deficit, I think he'll lose.

In any case him taking on these Espada is definitely too much.


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

but me i was talking about a cero in general and there are other people high tiers as well i.e vizards and top 3 espada who shit on grimmjows ceros. but we already know vegas cero is a buiding buster  so how does that require alot of powerscaling ?


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Luffy was shaking and destroying a city block against Crocodile by punching him into a ground, so he's far from just building buster, and he's experienced dozens of powerups since Alabasta. So, no, not buildingbuster at best.
And the mangrove Kizaru tore apart is the size of a city block as well, give or take.

Gran Rey Cero took apart the top of those two buildings - Except Luffy pushed apart two buildings with brute force from a position of negative leverage.
Spikes and Descargon are being blocked by Ichigo, whose strength is magnitudes below Luffy, and worlds beneath Nightmare Luffy.


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## lambda (Nov 20, 2008)

Lol Reckoner.

Comes back whren you aren't so full of shit.


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## C. Hook (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> You are aware that he needed brick bat to do that, right? I was talking about that his speed would likely not be able to tag a sonido using Espada.



Gear TWO Luffy. Sorry, but there's no excuse for him not being able to catch an Espada.



Reckoner said:


> It's only Moria here. And Asgard Moria went down after just a few gear 2/3 punches.



Possibly because he already took a Gomu Gomu no Thunderstorm in the face.



Reckoner said:


> That you classify Grimm Jow as a buildingbuster at max doesn't say much. Luffy is also just a buildingbuster and he was powerful enough to hurt Moria with those hits.



...

You do remember that before Moria went Asgard, he was hit by a Thunderstorm, right? From NIGHTMARE Luffy, right?



Reckoner said:


> The term buildingbusting doesn't convey the proper distinction between people of different classes of strength. Kizaru for instance is technically also a buildingbuster, but his feats show a distinct difference in scale that (in)arguably overshadows theirs.



The tree Kizaru exploded was arguably the size of a block, so Kizaru is considered a block buster by most.



Reckoner said:


> As for whether Grimm Jow would be able to replicate the destructive force that was needed to take out Moria, I'd say yes based on things like his Gran Rey Cero link 1 link 2, his spikes link 1 or his Descargon link 1 link 2. And since I don't see Moria being able to avoid those due to a speed deficit, I think he'll lose.



Gran Rey Cero=Slow as fuck to charge up.

Moria traps and stomps... Literally.

As for Grimmy's other moves, those require him to go Panthera, which will also give Moria time to go Asgard.



Reckoner said:


> In any case him taking on these Espada is definitely too much.



Definitely. He could take any one above or at (In my opinion) Nnoitra level, thought.


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

lambda said:


> Lol Reckoner.
> 
> Comes back whren you aren't so full of shit.


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## Rice Ball (Nov 20, 2008)

The Espada would win this with ease.
They have a definate speed advantage, and every hit they do, weakens Moria and releases shadows.


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## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

I still question just how much more powerful the OP cast is compared to when they were first inter ducted.

Main thing being Shanks losing his arm to a Seaking and Luffy in Chapter 1 or so dealing with 1


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## Yak (Nov 20, 2008)

The Sea King punching is mostly a trope since everyone and their mom does it ^^;


Damn, now I posted here even though I didn't want to engage this shit. I'm out again


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 20, 2008)

Havent commented on the matchup yet. 

If Moria starts out in SA one thing is for sure, the Espada will not survive if they get hit.


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## Nuzzie (Nov 20, 2008)

Moria's opinion on CEROS



Who cares about building busting

RICHIE was a building buster


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## Danchou (Nov 20, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> Gear TWO Luffy. Sorry, but there's no excuse for him not being able to catch an Espada.


I think he might be able to catch one with brick bat, but I was talking about him being able to tag them with his speed. Doubt that he has shown enough to make a case for that.



> Possibly because he already took a Gomu Gomu no Thunderstorm in the face.


Mweh, I didn't get the feeling that that had much to do with it. He seemed relatively fine just before he used Shadow Asgard. Foremost it looked like Luffy's Gear 2/3 hits were just too powerful for him to shrug off. That coupled with his poor control of the shadows and also partially his strain from fighting Nightmare Luffy (even though it was Oz that basically bore the brunt of the attacks) lead to his undoing.



> ...
> 
> You do remember that before Moria went Asgard, he was hit by a Thunderstorm, right? From NIGHTMARE Luffy, right?


See above.



> The tree Kizaru exploded was arguably the size of a block, so Kizaru is considered a block buster by most.


Yeah, I know but it goes to show that people being buildingbusters doesn't say much here.



> Gran Rey Cero=Slow as fuck to charge up.
> 
> Moria traps and stomps... Literally.
> 
> ...


How do you get that it was slow to charge up? I didn't really get that impression from his fight with Ichigo where he used it in mid-fight.

The same for things like his Pantera form or Moria's Shadow Asgard. They don't seem to happen instantly, but I doubt it would matter enough in the long run. 

As for Moria trapping and stomping. It's possible. Whether it's likely?. I wouldn't say so unless his opponent gives him the opportunity.



> Definitely. He could take any one above or at (In my opinion) Nnoitra level, thought.


Hm, I'd say he can take anyone above Grimm Jow as he's shown a lot that can't be dismissed. The ones above him..let's not even go there. 



skiboydoggy said:


> Luffy was shaking and destroying a city block against Crocodile by punching him into a ground, so he's far from just building buster, and he's experienced dozens of powerups since Alabasta. So, no, not buildingbuster at best.
> And the mangrove Kizaru tore apart is the size of a city block as well, give or take.


Luffy's Storm that tore open the street consisted of over 60 consecutive hits. 60 consecutive hits of for instance Grimm Jow's spikes would rig a large(r) area based based on the widescale damage they do individually. Let alone a Gran Rey Cero or a Descargon.

As for Luffy's other attacks. If you judge them on their individual power and merit, in terms of destructive froce they're still just on the scale of a buildingbuster (+).



> Gran Rey Cero took apart the top of those two buildings - Except Luffy pushed apart two buildings with brute force from a position of negative leverage.
> Spikes and Descargon are being blocked by Ichigo, whose strength is magnitudes below Luffy, and worlds beneath Nightmare Luffy.


I'm talking about the scale of Grimm Jow's attacks. They're basically buildingbusters. It should be clear that a Gran Ray Cero, his spikes or his Descargon are attacks which can compete with Luffy's most powerful (single) attacks which are also give or take in the same range as buildingbusters..

Also, I never knew or hoped that people would still try to pass of arguably Luffy's singlemost inconsistent feat in the manga as a serious feat. That short stint of a panel would probably dwarf whatever other strengthfeat or destructive feat he has done up until now. It should be held in as much regard as the fact that Zoro couldn't free himself from a stone chimney without his swords in that very same chapter.


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## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> It's only Moria here. And Asgard Moria went down after just a few gear 2/3 punches.



No, he did not




Three Gear 2nd attacks, still standing




Two Gear 2nd + Gear 3rd attacks, still standing 

It took Thriller Bark's mast, which must weight thousands of tons falling on his neck to knock him out



> That you classify Grimm Jow as a buildingbuster at max doesn't say much. Luffy is also just a buildingbuster and he was powerful enough to hurt Moria with those hits. The term buildingbusting doesn't convey the proper distinction between people of different classes of strength. Kizaru for instance is technically also a buildingbuster, but his feats show a distinct difference in scale that (in)arguably overshadows theirs.



But Grimmjow never showed more impressive destructive abilities than even Gear 3rd Luffy, which wasn't enough to put Moria down

And no, contrary to what Bleach fans seem to think, churning out plain white energy beams that never destroy anything isn't an impressive feat

Because there's no way to gauge their destructive ability



> As for whether Grimm Jow would be able to replicate the destructive force that was needed to take out Moria, I'd say yes based on things like his Gran Rey Cero link 1 link 2, his spikes link 1 or his Descargon link 1 link 2. And since I don't see Moria being able to avoid those due to a speed deficit, I think he'll lose.



None of these feats put Grimmjow significantly above Luffy, who punches through bedrock, through thick steel doors, and still couldn't put Moria down for the count while he was boosted by 100 shadows and by Gear 2nd/Gear 3rd


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## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Nuzzie said:


> Moria's opinion on CEROS
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fucking A!


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## Yak (Nov 20, 2008)

One Piece houses  

A card-house analogy comes to mind but I shall cease it


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

thats the second post in here  

i know you wanna post in here


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## Yak (Nov 20, 2008)

No, actually I only want to mock everyone


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## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

dnt worry no shit storms happening here


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## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Luffy actually has been a city block buster since Alabasta. Which is above anything any of the Espada, from five to nine, have showcased.


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## Danchou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> No, he did not
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Aren't those a few of his gear punches? Or are you saying that it was the mast which ended him?



> But Grimmjow never showed more impressive destructive abilities than even Gear 3rd Luffy, which wasn't enough to put Moria down
> 
> And no, contrary to what Bleach fans seem to think, churning out plain white energy beams that never destroy anything isn't an impressive feat
> 
> Because there's no way to gauge their destructive ability


I don't think Grimm Jow's Gran Rey Cero link 1 link 2, his spikes link 1 or his Descargon link 1 link 2 significantly differ in power of a Gear (2+)3 punch based on their area of affect and destructive force if you compare them link 1 link 2 link 3 link 4. What makes you think it does, since I'm not see it. They both destroy buildings of objects of give or take the same size and substance.

At the risk of making a no limits fallacy you can argue that within reason wide scale attacks which are shown to have destroyed area's that they have covered, could still count as an attack that can destroy matter on the scale of the entire attack if you could look at it's displayed destructive force and whether it'd be enough to cover and destroy the entire matter if it did connect. But I guess, that's a bit arbitrary.



> None of these feats put Grimmjow significantly above Luffy, who punches through bedrock, through thick steel doors, and still couldn't put Moria down for the count while he was boosted by 100 shadows and by Gear 2nd/Gear 3rd


Based on their scale and their known destructive force like the fact that a simple cero can evaporate Luppi's torso despite his Iron skin, the fact that they easily destroy buildings and that they clear area's, I don't see them being significantly different from Luffy's feats. As to whether that is enough to put down Moria (without Oz) like Luffy did. I'm inclined to say yes. As I see it a few of Luffy's gear attacks were enough to do him in, so attacks on that scale are likely to do the same. For discussions sake, I'm ignoring the role that the tower falling on Moria might have played as it's hard to tell and makes things more difficult. It seems Luffy had him on the ropes anyway.

Mweh, I've said my part. I guess it's not as clear cut as I thought. I'm pretty much fine with either side winning.


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## MdB (Nov 20, 2008)

It's kinda funny considering Luffy was a building buster since Arlong Park.... Now combine that with his increased base strength during his second encounter with Blueno, and add that with 100 shadows that made it possible to slam a building-sized ogre through Thriller Bark like a ragdoll. 

Moria survived a blazing fury of punches of ''that'' Luffy without lethal injuries. 

Grimmjow thrashing him, hahahahahahaha.


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## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Its also funny comparing current Luffy to current Grimmjow. Luffy destroyed essentially an entire city block indirectly through the force of his blows while heavily poisoned and damaged after knocking Crocodile through a solid dozen meters of pure bedrock.

Grimmjow has nothing on that. And that was Luffy from over 350 chapters ago almost.


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## Power16 (Nov 20, 2008)

Things to take into account, when Luffy uses the NM form he was at 100% and after the time limit was up he was out of it and could barely move. Moria used a version 100 times stronger than Luffy's after being KO by NM Luffy and taking punches from his strongest attack 'Storm'. During Moria's time his NM form what he had difficulty with is controlling the shadows because as we've seen when you take them in you need lot so will power to keep them in check since they are trying to escape to return their masters and thats the issue Moria had during his battle(his will was weak from losing his previous crew and losing current one and his body was still weak) with Luffy and Luffy's attack was causing him distress in controlling the shadows he handle the attacks just fine especially when his base took NM Luffy's attack and was up a couple minutes later.


----------



## lambda (Nov 20, 2008)

Or simply, Reckoner is full of shit.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Its also funny comparing current Luffy to current Grimmjow. Luffy destroyed essentially an entire city block indirectly through the force of his *blows* while heavily poisoned and damaged after knocking Crocodile through a solid dozen meters of pure bedrock.
> 
> Grimmjow has nothing on that. And that was Luffy from over 350 chapters ago almost.



this is plural

so if grimmjow continues spamming ceros and those darts he will bust a city block evetually


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, and that was a heavily fatigued, injured and poisoned Luffy. He used Gomu Gomu no Storm to perform that feat.

Where as shooting a really crappy Cero isn't cutting.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

can luffy bust a city block with 1 attack ?


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, he did so with his Storm technique. If your talking about a single physical attack, not yet unless your talking about Nightmare Luffy.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

i was just checking because these whole building busting feats some of them are unquantified. It really should be in 1 physical attack. grimmjow can bust a city block but with continuous attacks but does that really make him a building buster  i think not.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Reckoner said:


> Aren't those a few of his gear punches? Or are you saying that it was the mast which ended him?



It seems pretty fucking clear it's the case yeah

He was still standing after taking Luffy's blows

You can say he'd have fallen down and been ko'd without the mast falling on him but then you leave the realm of observable feats to step into idle speculation territory


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> i was just checking because these whole building busting feats some of them are unquantified. It really should be in 1 physical attack. grimmjow can bust a city block but with continuous attacks but does that really make him a building buster  i think not.


Continuous attacks in rapid sequence.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> i was just checking because these whole building busting feats some of them are unquantified. It really should be in 1 physical attack. grimmjow can bust a city block but with continuous attacks but does that really make him a building buster  i think not.



It's still one technique, just like the bullets or cero. Just because Grimmjow is weaker than Alabasta Luffy doesn't mean you have to find excuses for him.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

im not making excuses 

so grimmjow can be a city block buster then since he just needs to continuos needs to spam those darts or ceros since it will count as 1 technique


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> i was just checking because these whole building busting feats some of them are unquantified. It really should be in 1 physical attack. grimmjow can bust a city block but with continuous attacks but does that really make him a building buster  i think not.



Yeah if you gave Grimmjow an entire day to wail on an entire city block district.

Where as Luffy did it purely as collateral while physically handicapped with a single continous attack for just a few seconds.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Btw if this is Asgard Moria without PIS 

It means he can use his base form techniques

So Doppelman (which he probably used against Gear 2nd Luffy anyway) and Kagemusha

Let's say Grimmjow tries one of his fancy beams then

Moria switches positions with his shadow, Doppelman gets blasted apart, while reforming Moria uses Brick Bat Black Box, Grimmjow gets caught, Moria crushes him with a punch


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> im not making excuses
> 
> so grimmjow can be a city block buster then since he just needs to continuos needs to spam those darts or ceros since it will count as 1 technique



Then logically through your claims, Goku should be able to destroy solar systems since he can bust multiple planets at each go of his attacks.

Not happening.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

well thats what you are claiming TWF  

since its not done in one move


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> well thats what you are claiming TWF
> 
> since its not done in one move



Gomu Gomu No Storm.


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

The Gomu Gomu no Storm is one attack, its just Luffy's strongest punches unleashed in a barrage for a few moments to pummel his opponents as his finishing technique.

Its not like he spent five minutes punching Crocodile while tens of thousands of punches through the tomb in Alabasta.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Gomu Gomu No Storm.



1 physical move not 1 technique

im being misunderstood here, im just saying building or city block busting really should be in 1 physical attack. Because really gomu gomu no storm is a barrage of punches. grimmjow can spam ceros as well


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> 1 physical move not 1 technique
> 
> im being misunderstood here, im just saying building or city block busting really should be in 1 physical attack. Because really gomu gomu no storm is a barrage of punches. grimmjow can spam ceros as well



Show me Grimmjow shooting about 20 ceros every second. And that's just what we can see. In reality, Luffy is doing much more.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

but it still counts as a continuous attack


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> but it still counts as a continuous attack



*Yeah, one continuous attack. It's still one move.*


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> but it still counts as a continuous attack



Still one move.


----------



## Vault (Nov 20, 2008)

so there you have it, thats all i wanted to know


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Vault023 said:


> so there you have it, thats all i wanted to know



And your point being?


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Luffy did this while being physically bound with negative leverage during Water 7 while being squished for nearly several hours.

Gaara vs. Kimimaro Battlefield
Gaara vs. Kimimaro Battlefield

With one hand each, he pushed massive ten story or taller mansion sized buildings and wrecked an entire district at Water 7.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

A single hit from Asgard Moria would doom any of them, but it's unlikely many of them will take a hit. On the other hand, Asgard Moria will be a gigantic target for Gran Rey Cero from air walking Espada. I'd give it to the Espada.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Everyone thinks Moria is slow because he's fat.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

Considering Asgard Moria was still able to hit Gear 2 Luffy, I don't see why he can't hit the Espada.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Everyone thinks Moria is slow because he's fat.



I think Asgard Moria is slow because he had never really displayed any notable speed feats. Normal Moria is alright in terms of speed, I guess, but even he didn't display anything really notable (outrunning Luffy isn't as impressive because he was slowing Luffy down). Moria definitely doesn't seem to have Shunpo/Sonido speed.



Zetta said:


> Considering Asgard Moria was still able to hit Gear 2 Luffy, I don't see why he can't hit the Espada.



He never came _close_ to tagging Luffy in Gear 2nd, unless you count when he trapped him in a brick bat box. In which time Luffy didn't try to dodge.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Considering Asgard Moria was still able to hit Gear 2 Luffy, I don't see why he can't hit the Espada.




I think the main reason is the Espada is flying.

I doubt a vampire slug can fly


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Uh, trapping him with Black Box counts for a hit. "Didn't try to dodge"? Are you serious? More like he couldn't. He was in the middle of an attack, started saying "Gomu Gomu no...", was interrupted, and his position implied he was about to leap again and was just stopping for a moment

Espadas would get caught by Black Box, and once they're caught it's over for them


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> Uh, trapping him with Black Box counts for a hit. "Didn't try to dodge"? Are you serious? More like he couldn't. He was in the middle of an attack, started saying "Gomu Gomu no...", was interrupted, and his position implied he was about to leap again and was just stopping for a moment
> 
> Espadas would get caught by Black Box, and once they're caught it's over for them


After he was trapped he basically looked around in question and wondered what was trapping him. He didn't try and move inside the box, like I'd think the Espada would. In the first place Luffy should've dodged as it took a bit of time for the Shadows to gather under him and create the box. Any one of the Espada is fast enough to get away during that time. Anyway, he can't trap them all at the same time, and as he's getting hammered by five different Cero from everywhere else he won't be able to follow up a Black Box attack.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Because Cero is going to bother Asgard Moria, right?


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Because Cero is going to bother Asgard Moria, right?



Considering Grimmjow's ceros vaporized two arrancrar it would at least hurt him...


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

O watchout some fodder arrancar,no espada has shown a cero worth anything against the power of luffys attacks he used on moria.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Considering Grimmjow's ceros vaporized two arrancrar it would at least hurt him...


Compared to the utter trashing he took from Nightmare Luffy, Gear 2+3 Luffy, and the mast falling on him?


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Energy beam =/= Punch

And Grimmjow also has Gran Rey Cero and his strongest attack which are stronger.


I might have to mention that Grimmjow isn't his only opponent.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> After he was trapped he basically looked around in question and wondered what was trapping him. He didn't try and move inside the box, like I'd think the Espada would.



Because he didn't have the time. What you fail to understand is everything took place in a split second.



> In the first place Luffy should've dodged as it took a bit of time for the Shadows to gather under him and create the box.



No, not at all.

slicing

Look carefully where Luffy is located. He isn't standing on the ground or even any horizontal platform. He's on the side of the giant mast. So except if you're willing to argue Luffy can stick to walls like an oversized fly, it obviously means he was just in the process of rebounding from that surface and attack Moria again. Yet he still got caught in that extremely short time span

He didn't dodge cause he couldn't. It was too fast for him, and it'd be too fast for any Espada


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> Because he didn't have the time. What you fail to understand is everything took place in a split second.


He did have time, but like you pointed out below, he didn't have any way of moving as he was attached to the wall. 



> No, not at all.
> 
> slicing
> 
> ...


I actually missed that, but now I have to say the case for brick bat catching the Espada is even lower. Luffy was in a position where he was incapable of using his Gear 2nd speed to the fullest. The Espada can air walk, so none of them would be in such a position.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

slicing
slicing
slicing
slicing

Moria gets beheaded


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> slicing
> slicing
> slicing
> slicing
> ...


The attack that Ichigo repelled?


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

The attack that is Grimmjow's strongest attack. 

Meaning it is stronger than grimmjow's other attacks. Meaning a resolve power-up made Ichigo stronger than Uliqulora.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

I never realized exactly how huge that attack was before now.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> He did have time, but like you pointed out below, he didn't have any way of moving as he was attached to the wall.



"Attached to the wall"? What in the fuck are you even talking about now? 

He had a way of moving, which was moving forward, attacking Moria again, and that's what he was about to do but ultimately couldn't because BLACK BOX WAS TOO FAST



> I actually missed that, but now I have to say the case for brick bat catching the Espada is even lower. Luffy was in a position where he was incapable of using his Gear 2nd speed to the fullest. The Espada can air walk, so none of them would be in such a position.



No this is utterly ridiculous. There was nothing restraining Luffy's movements. He got caught between two extremely fast Gear 2nd movements by something moving even faster. That's all there is to it. 

Your denial is pathetic.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> The attack that is Grimmjow's strongest attack.
> 
> Meaning it is stronger than grimmjow's other attacks. Meaning a resolve power-up made Ichigo stronger than Uliqulora.



Total assumption on your part.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> The attack that is Grimmjow's strongest attack.



Which was blocked by Ichigo 

Which means it isn't going to bother Moria  

Which could easily be dodged with Kagemusha anyway   

Narutomania is that way ------------->


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Total assumption on your part.



Uliqulora now feels that he has to draw his sword to fight bankai Ichigo. 

He previously fought Vizard Ichigo barehanded.


----------



## MdB (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Energy beam =/= Punch
> 
> And Grimmjow also has Gran Rey Cero and his strongest attack which are stronger.



Too bad evidence indicates it as purely concessive force with secondary heat properties. It doesn't act like a real life laser, it's just another generic Shonen energy beam

And a Gran Rey Cero would be a stupid idea considering it takes too much time to prepare for a clean hit.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> "Attached to the wall"? What in the fuck are you even talking about now?
> 
> He had a way of moving, which was moving forward, attacking Moria again, and that's what he was about to do but ultimately couldn't because BLACK BOX WAS TOO FAST


Yeah, it was too fast for a Luffy that couldn't actually utilize his speed. It's the same principle behind being "slow" in midair. The only thing he could do was rebound, he couldn't sidestep, backflip, cartwheel, and defintely not run effectively, which is why he was caught by the attack. 



> No this is utterly ridiculous. There was nothing restraining Luffy's movements. He got caught between two extremely fast Gear 2nd movements by something moving even faster. That's all there is to it.
> 
> Your denial is pathetic.


Yeah, there was something restricting his movement- physics. Considering he had to rebound off the wall, which would've taken more time than other maneuvers in Gear 2nd. Why else would the ONLY attack to hit him be from one where he was in a limited mobility position? Not to mention the mere usage of the attack required Moria to wave his hand around, summon Shadows, then have them fly out and attack AFTER puking up about two hundred shadows?! Gear 2nd Luffy doesn't rebound at super speed.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

> Too bad evidence indicates it as purely concessive force with secondary heat properties. It doesn't act like a real life laser, it's just another generic Shonen energy beam



snipe position (Extended Kusanagi)



> And a Gran Rey Cero would be a stupid idea considering it takes too much time to prepare.



Zommari takes sovereignty of Moria's head and then Grimmjow has all the time in the world.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

lol Amor.
Is this before or after a shadow bites his head off?


----------



## Power16 (Nov 20, 2008)

snipe position (Extended Kusanagi)

Luffy was planning on attacking when he got caught so he was plenty ready and still couldn't react, i say.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Seriously Brick Bat's speed is ridiculously underrated

No one ever dodged/evaded it, it was able to close the distance between Robin and Moria so fast Robin couldn't even say "clutch" which is all she had to do to end Moria since she had him in a choke hold, and Robin did a number on Pell who has a very good speed feat (flying a kilometer away in 5 seconds carrying a huge bomb) so her reaction speed is in no way slow


----------



## MdB (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> snipe position (Extended Kusanagi)



And what exactly does that prove? It's been shown countless of times that Cero's are concussive force.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah...moria gets no respect.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Power16 said:


> Link removed
> 
> Luffy was planning on attacking when he got caught so he was plenty ready and still couldn't react, i say.


Reaction wasn't the problem, it was the limited movement. I don't know how long it would've taken him to rebound from the walls, but it wouldn't be any where near as fast as he could normally run or move in Gear 2nd because he had to reverse all his momentum and against a wall he can't use Soru.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> Yeah, it was too fast for a Luffy that couldn't actually utilize his speed. It's the same principle behind being "slow" in midair. The only thing he could do was rebound, he couldn't sidestep, backflip, cartwheel, and defintely not run effectively, which is why he was caught by the attack.



He had footing on a solid surface, he could have lept forward like he does when he's standing on the ground, and for the hundredth time that's what he was about to do



> Yeah, there was something restricting his movement- physics. Considering he had to rebound off the wall, which would've taken more time than other maneuvers in Gear 2nd.



Oh yeah silly me, I didn't notice I was speaking to a world authority in the realm of Gear 2nd maneuvers and wall rebounding physics

Seriously what the hell are you blabbering about



> Why else would the ONLY attack to hit him be from one where he was in a limited mobility position?



Oh I don't know, maybe because that attack was never used when he didn't have a "limited mobility position" (from where did you pull that out I'll never know, or rather I don't want to know) and because Brick Bat is simply far faster than Asgard Moria's punches and kicks?



> Not to mention the mere usage of the attack required Moria to wave his hand around, summon Shadows, then have them fly out and attack AFTER puking up about two hundred shadows?!



I honestly have no fucking idea what your point is



> Gear 2nd Luffy doesn't rebound at super speed.



Gear 2nd Luffy does everything at superspeed except rebounding from a wall

That makes a whole lot of sense


----------



## Power16 (Nov 20, 2008)

He was in mid attack mode already(gomu gomu no...) then got caught, when in gear 2 he's basically constantly moving at super soru and the technique just require fast kicking i don't see why he couldn't do it where he was especially since he was already planning on attacking.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

MdB said:


> And what exactly does that prove? It's been shown countless of times that Cero's are concussive force.



Then the concussive force will put a hole through Moria's head.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Luffy rebounds at superspeed full stop. He's rubber, remember?


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Then the conclusive force will put a hole through Moria's head.



Except again he tanks powered up luffys attacks,jesus just stop it a cero is complete fucking shit compared to everything moria tanked.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Then the conclusive force will put a hole through Moria's head.



After reading your posts my conclusive force says you have no idea what you're talking about


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Moria is not that strong. He was getting knocked unconcious by a fatigued gear 2 Luffy.


You are thinking of Oz.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Moria is not that strong. He was getting knocked unconcious by a fatigued gear 2 Luffy.
> 
> 
> You are thinking of Oz.


After taking a beating from Nightmare Luffy in his base form, and then survived the G2, then the G3, and would have survived the G2+3 if not for the mast of Thriller Bark falling on him.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

No he wasn't...and again the entire asgard moria fight was after a thunderstorm from nm luffy,no espada is as strong as gear 2 luffy,no espada is as strong as gear 2/3 combination attacks,no espada is anywhere remotely fucking near nm luffys thunderstorm you know the attack he took before ever starting his main fight with luffy.


----------



## Han Solo (Nov 20, 2008)

It took the entire mast of TB falling on him to put Asgard Moria down.


----------



## Power16 (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Moria is not that strong. He was getting knocked unconcious by a fatigued gear 2 Luffy.
> 
> 
> You are thinking of Oz.





Power16 said:


> Things to take into account, when Luffy uses the NM form he was at 100% and after the time limit was up he was out of it and could barely move. Moria used a version 100 times stronger than Luffy's after being KO by NM Luffy and taking punches from his strongest attack 'Storm'. During Moria's time his NM form what he had difficulty with is controlling the shadows because as we've seen when you take them in you need lot so will power to keep them in check since they are trying to escape to return their masters and thats the issue Moria had during his battle(his will was weak from losing his previous crew and losing current one and his body was still weak) with Luffy and Luffy's attack was causing him distress in controlling the shadows he handle the attacks just fine especially when his base took NM Luffy's attack and was up a couple minutes later.



People should just re-read thriller bark arc slowly.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> He had footing on a solid surface, he could have lept forward like he does when he's standing on the ground, and for the hundredth time that's what he was about to do


Yeah, only he also had to reverse the momentum from his last attack on Moria unlike when he's standing on solid ground



> Oh yeah silly me, I didn't notice I was speaking to a world authority in the realm of Gear 2nd maneuvers and wall rebounding physics
> 
> Seriously what the hell are you blabbering about


I'm assuming this was just here to be pointlessly sarcastic. Tell me if you actually wanted a response.



> Oh I don't know, maybe because that attack was never used when he didn't have a "limited mobility position" (from where did you pull that out I'll never know, or rather I don't want to know) and because Brick Bat is simply far faster than Asgard Moria's punches and kicks?


You're suggesting Brick Bat is faster than Moria's punching even though it requires a wave of the hand to pull off? I'll get to my next point for this:



> I honestly have no fucking idea what your point is


He threw up and waved his hand before even initiating Brick Bat. Luffy's rebound should've occurred by the wave if he could really move from the wall at the same speed as on the ground, considering when Moria was actively trying to hit him, he missed terribly. When Moria was moving his limbs as fast as he could he couldn't touch Luffy but when he merely waved his hand lazily Luffy was apparently in slow motion. 



> Gear 2nd Luffy does everything at superspeed except rebounding from a wall
> 
> That makes a whole lot of sense


[/QUOTE]
I didn't say he didn't do it at super speed, I said it was relatively slow compared to his other movements. Just like rebounding from a wall _should_ be for anything. When you kick off from a wall you have to actually reverse the momentum that got you to the wall, and then you can get wherever you're planning to go. 



			
				Power16 said:
			
		

> He was in mid attack mode already(gomu gomu no...) then got caught, when in gear 2 he's basically constantly moving at super soru and the technique just require fast kicking i don't see why he couldn't do it where he was especially since he was already planning on attacking.


He had to reverse his momentum, and he couldn't perform Soru because you have to kick off from the ground 'ten times'. If he'd kicked off from the wall once he would've been airborne.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

I didn't remember he got punched in the face by Nightmare Luffy while in Oz.



But still there is no way he can take down 6 opponents who are able to outrun Ichigo.


----------



## MdB (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Then the concussive force will put a hole through Moria's head.



Oh you mean it will kill someone who could endure several hits of a Thunderstorm from Nightmare Luffy. You're quite delusional if you think that'll happen.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> I didn't remember he got punched in the face by Nightmare Luffy while in Oz.
> 
> 
> 
> But still there is no way he can take down 6 opponents who are able to outrun Ichigo.


Outrun Ichigo... So? It's not like Luffy's slower than Ichigo or anything.
Besides, only GJ and Zommari are outrunning Ichigo in the first place. Maybe NoiNoi and Ulq, but the latter has no real feats.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Luffy thunderstormed odz mid section...exactly where moria was sitting,and I do see him winning considering there is only one person on that team who is any real threat and a brick bats takes care of him,everyone else couldn't take one hit from moria and thats that.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Oro's death
> 
> 
> 
> Zommari takes sovereignty of Moria's head and then Grimmjow has all the time in the world.



Amor = kidou

Kidou can be broken using physical power (Ichigo and Kensei did it). The strongest person who it got used on is Byakuya. Hence people stronger than Byakuya can break it through sheer force. Moria is a metric fuckton stronger than Byakura.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> Yeah, only he also had to reverse the momentum from his last attack on Moria unlike when he's standing on solid ground



There was no momentum from his last attack

Read the fucking manga, he couldn't possibly have landed here as a result of his Bazooka attack



> I'm assuming this was just here to be pointlessly sarcastic. Tell me if you actually wanted a response.



If it involves further pseudo science garbage about imaginary momentum and restricted movements I'd rather not thank you very much



> You're suggesting Brick Bat is faster than Moria's punching even though it requires a wave of the hand to pull off? I'll get to my next point for this
> 
> He threw up and waved his hand before even initiating Brick Bat. Luffy's rebound should've occurred by the wave if he could really move from the wall at the same speed as on the ground, considering when Moria was actively trying to hit him, he missed terribly. When Moria was moving his limbs as fast as he could he couldn't touch Luffy but when he merely waved his hand lazily Luffy was apparently in slow motion.






> I didn't say he didn't do it at super speed, I said it was relatively slow compared to his other movements. Just like rebounding from a wall should be for anything. When you kick off from a wall you have to actually reverse the momentum that got you to the wall, and then you can get wherever you're planning to go.



I'll end this shit with this page cause it's getting fucking annoying:

Oro's death

Notice where Luffy is coming from? That's right, the fucking side of the mast where Moria's kick lands

Meaning he was in the same position than when he got caught by Black Box, only this time he dodged it, because the kick was slower than Black Box

Meaning there's no "reverse the momentum" bullshit


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Moria taking nm luffys hammer attack to the face
fast
thunderstormOro's deathhe was hit several times by nm luffy,and even then it still took 3 gear 2 attacks,2 jet shell gear 2/3 combo attacks and the mast which probably weights somewhere in the area of o idk a million tons falling on morias neck to end the fight,to think the espada could do anything to asgard moria is downright laughable.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> There was no momentum from his last attack
> 
> Read the fucking manga, he couldn't possibly have landed here as a result of his Bazooka attack


It didn't show him jump to this position, so I was figuring he moved there as a result of rebound from Moria. 



> I'll end this shit with this page cause it's getting fucking annoying:
> 
> Oro's death
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]
The first hit or the second one? On the first he was on the ground as the previous page indicates, and the second he was clearly on one of the tower things built before the mast- not the mast itself. And you still haven't addressed how Luffy wasn't dropping from the mast in the time it took Moria to garble out shadows and then wave his hand, which was required to initiate Brick Bat.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Orion said:


> Moria taking nm luffys hammer attack to the face
> fast
> thunderstormOro's deathhe was hit several times by nm luffy,and even then it still took 3 gear 2 attacks,2 jet shell gear 2/3 combo attacks and the mast which probably weights somewhere in the area of o idk a million tons falling on morias neck to end the fight,to think the espada could do anything to asgard moria is downright laughable.


When he went Asgard and sucked in the Shadows he seemed to have been revitalized for the most part. And every attack Luffy did made him spew up a massive amount of Shadows. The mast was only needed because he forcibly held the shadows in. If he tried to hold shadows in against Espada, paralyzed with the trouble of doing that he'd be an even easier target for any of the Espada that survive to nail him with Cero which are Getsuga Tenshou par moves. Much less Gran Rey Cero and other moves.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

No move an espada has compares to the attacks luffy threw at moria,no attack they have can compare to that mast,there is no evidence of him being magically healed,espada get raped,and its funny that a giant mast weighing hundreds of thousands+ tons made moria spew up less shadows then luffys hits on contact,just something to think about.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Orion said:


> No move an espada has compares to the attacks luffy threw at moria,no attack they have can compare to that mast,there is no evidence of him being magically healed,espada get raped,and its funny that a giant mast weighing hundreds of thousands+ tons made moria spew up less shadows then luffys hits on contact,just something to think about.


He was about to spew those shadows. A dissipated Cero of the lower rankign Yami did damage of this level. And transformed Grimmjaw's darts, which he can rapid fire at least five, can blow huge chunks out of buildings. I'm not going to say these attacks surpass _everything_ Luffy did, but stuff like the Jet Rocket I would think they can match. And his Jet Rocket knocked out about 20 shadows alone. And he was already about to cough up most of the shadows when the mast fell.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> He was about to spew those shadows. A dissipated Cero of the lower rankign Yami did damage of this level. And transformed Grimmjaw's darts, which he can rapid fire at least five, can blow huge chunks out of buildings. I'm not going to say these attacks surpass _everything_ Luffy did, but stuff like the Jet Rocket I would think they can match. And his Jet Rocket knocked out about 20 shadows alone. And he was already about to cough up most of the shadows when the mast fell.


I doubt anything the Espada have shown reach Jet _Pistol_ level. We are talking G2 here, you know.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> I doubt anything the Espada have shown reach Jet _Pistol_ level. We are talking G2 here, you know.


Yeah, and we're talking about captain level fighters on the Bleach side.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> He was about to spew those shadows. A dissipated Cero of the lower rankign Yami did damage of this level. And transformed Grimmjaw's darts, which he can rapid fire at least five, can blow huge chunks out of buildings. I'm not going to say these attacks surpass _everything_ Luffy did, but stuff like the Jet Rocket I would think they can match. And his Jet Rocket knocked out about 20 shadows alone. And he was already about to cough up most of the shadows when the mast fell.



O god the meeting between two attacks cut some ground call the press,and no they don't come close to even jet rocket base luffy has been bringing buildings down since chapter 100,espadas aren't on luffys level of power especially gear 2s,nowhere near gear2/3 combo,and they can't compare to the force of the mast falling on morias throat,if he was about to cough them up before the mast fell he would have right when it fell except he didn't it had to sit on his neck for awhile,so again moria stomps.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Orion said:


> O god the meeting between two attacks cut some ground call the press,and no they don't come close to even jet rocket base luffy has been bringing buildings down since chapter 100,espadas aren't on luffys level of power especially gear 2s,nowhere near gear2/3 combo,and they can't compare to the force of the mast falling on morias throat,if he was about to cough them up before the mast fell he would have right when it fell except he didn't it had to sit on his neck for awhile,so again moria stomps.


It dealt a lot of damage to the ground, and bringing down buildings is also something Ichigo did in his fight with Kenpachi... around chapter 100. Shikai Ichigo, who's horribly over powered by BASE Grimmjow. Who in term is one of the lower ranking fighters in this battle.


----------



## Aldric (Nov 20, 2008)

Rashou said:


> The first hit or the second one?



Kick. Kick. Moria's kick. English? Do you speak it?



> On the first he was on the ground as the previous page indicates, and the second he was clearly on one of the tower things built before the mast- not the mast itself.



There is no such things as "tower things built before the mast"

this level

Here you can see behind Moria the same window than in the first scan I posted

It's the mast

I consider this to be a concession from your part, since you had to make shit up to back up your piss poor point



> And you still haven't addressed how Luffy wasn't dropping from the mast in the time it took Moria to garble out shadows and then wave his hand, which was required to initiate Brick Bat.



Why would I adress something so retarded

Would you happen to be that Pencil/Beyonder douchebag by any chance

Only him would think such petty nitpicking over technicalities makes for a good argument


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

You mean ichigos full power+zangetsus+kenpachis full power,hey guess what?they havn't replicated that feat in fact nowhere close,so again gear 2>>>espada strength,gear 2/3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength,nm luffy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength,and millions of tons falling on morias neck>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength.


----------



## Rashou (Nov 20, 2008)

Aldric said:


> Kick. Kick. Moria's kick. English? Do you speak it?


My bad. 

There is no such things as "tower things built before the mast"

[2]



> Here you can see behind Moria the same window than in the first scan I posted
> 
> It's the mast
> 
> I consider this to be a concession from your part, since you had to make shit up to back up your piss poor point


Here The reckage of one of the towers in that shot. Or the little stump you can see next to Moria right here. Reviewing the anime seems to show it as rubble, but rubble that he was able to stand on fully. 



> Why would I adress something so retarded
> 
> Would you happen to be that Pencil/Beyonder douchebag by any chance
> 
> Only him would think such petty nitpicking over technicalities makes for a good argument


For the simple reason that this is a debate. Addressing a retarded point is a lot better a tactic than simply letting it slip by, at least to me.

And I don't think it's petty nitpicking, I think it's Oda realizing Gear 2nd Luffy can't rebound from walls at the same speed as he can run around on solid ground. It's not like I'm saying "lolz, NO SonIc BoomZ! Luffi ain't fast!" Or some crap.



Orion said:


> You mean ichigos full power+zangetsus+kenpachis full power,hey guess what?they havn't replicated that feat in fact nowhere close,so again gear 2>>>espada strength,gear 2/3>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength,nm luffy>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength,and millions of tons falling on morias neck>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>espada strength.


Ichigo fighting with Zangetsu but not in Bankai, and yeah, Kenpachi's power was also present. But they have done feats past this that are similar- Grimmjaw's building busting, the huge hole Ichigo put in the side of Sokyoku Hill and the like. The mast only knocked all the shadows he was about to throw up out of him.


----------



## Shock Therapy (Nov 20, 2008)

bat bricks will destroy everyone


----------



## C. Hook (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> I didn't remember he got punched in the face by Nightmare Luffy while in Oz.



snakes
fast
this

Moria is, by the way, probably the second most (Kuma/Pacifistas) durable character in One Piece. A mere CERO is gonna take him out? What are you, mad?



BAD BD said:


> But still there is no way he can take down 6 opponents who are able to outrun Ichigo.



Nnoitra can outrun Ichigo? Grimmjow can outrun Ichigo? And since when was Ichigo faster than Gear 2?


----------



## ichimaru17 (Nov 20, 2008)

moria is seriously underrated. bat bricks is even more underated. no one here has proven that bat bricks wouldn't work. bat bricks has never been dodged, and more specifically bat bricks worked on gear 2 luffy. you have no clear proof that the espadas could dodge it. you are just making assumptions, while we have proof that gear 2 luffy was not able to dodge it.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

Wow, that this reached page 8 is just wow lol. People don't seem to understand that brick bat black box is an omni directional attack, much like Aizen's black coffin kidou, you don't dodge it, you get caught by it and smashed like an ant after, there's nothing the Espada's can do coz the attacks they showed will be as effective as a mosquitos bite, compared to what Moria tanked from NfuckingL.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

I've said it before and i'll say it again

Stupid match up.


And both sides claim a victor on lag of evidence.


Find something they fail to destroy not something they've destroyed to get there power.

I have nothing against OP being stronger, nor bleach being more haxed, but the amount of evidence for either is so lacking that these threads become more and more boring.


The best thing to stop Bleach attacks is Reiatsu not Physical power which is what OP got shit loads of. No matter how you match up bleach or OP one of the to have to get altered to fit the other and depending on who get altered there's usually different Victors.

Moria is a huge vampie slug and so with his weight alone he should be able to do alot of damage to areas, Punches are good, but getting hit by rubber is hardly the same as a hit by Bone or a cutting or piercing attack.

U guys should talk about what Zoro accomplished or didn't accomplish against Moria not what Luffy did.


That being said, what is preventing fly and Cerospam till Moria eventually drown?


I say teleport moria into a salt desert and watch him shrink into nothingness


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Iris said:


> Wow, that this reached page 8 is just wow lol. People don't seem to understand that brick bat black box is an omni directional attack, much like Aizen's black coffin kidou, you don't dodge it, you get caught by it and smashed like an ant after, there's nothing the Espada's can do coz the attacks they showed will be as effective as a mosquitos bite, compared to what Moria tanked from NfuckingL.



Except that takes time and he is fighting 6 opponents.

If for 1 second Moria gets controlled by Zommari, Grimmjow cuts his head off with a 500 foot blade.


I don't see a reason why a cutting attack won't work.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> Except that takes time and he is fighting 6 opponents.
> 
> If for 1 second Moria gets controlled by Zommari, Grimmjow cuts his head off with a 500 foot blade.
> 
> ...



Except that Moria is bloodlusted and on a rampage where it takes him one punch to make the Espada a squashed tomatoe.

What's the cutting attack going to do, against someone who tanked several attacks, all of wich casually destroy meters of thick steel.

In Bleach they destroy walls, in OP they go through steel like a hot knife through butter.

And what's with that "Grimmjow cuts his head off with a 500 foot blade" statement? Elaborate pl0x.

It's not hard to imagine, NL would destroy all the Espada's within seconds, yet it nearly wasn't enough to finish Moria.

Also you guys still haven't countered argument against brick bat black box, Moria can simply catch them one by one, all the while tanking others their hits and he can tank alot of them, seeing that those attacks don't even come close to the destructive force of NL, G2 or 3.

Or...Moria simply goes berserk with his punches where as he only needs one hit to do them in.

@Akatora: Zoro was fighting Oz, not Moria.

And it's funny how you say that rubber isn't as effective as the Espada's cutting force, you mean the same rubber that casually destroyes meters of thick steel, that Bleach has yet to show a feat of that caliber that's coming even close to it? ...


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

> Except that Moria is bloodlusted and on a rampage where it takes him once punch to make the Espada a squashed tomatoe.



He punched the island in two, but the strawhats standing  a few meters away were fine. The espada are more than capable of dodging his punches.



> What's the cutting attack going to do, against someone who tanked several attacks, all of wich casually destroy meters of thick steel.
> 
> In Bleach they destroy walls, in OP they go through steel like a hot knife through butter.



Luffy punches through steel. He doesn't cut steel. 



> And what's with that "Grimmjow cuts his head off with a 500 foot blade" statement? Elaborate pl0x.



Jounin-level jutsu
Jounin-level jutsu
Jounin-level jutsu
Jounin-level jutsu


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

And again brick bats will catch them,gjs blades aren't strong enough to finish moria.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Iris said:


> @Akatora: Zoro was fighting Oz, not Moria.
> 
> And it's funny how you say that rubber isn't as effective as the Espada's cutting force, you mean the same rubber that casually destroyes meters of thick steel, that Bleach has yet to show a feat of that caliber that's coming even close to it? ...




Yet you don't seem to realize that moria isn't comparable to a solid wall.(and your'e the one who's supposed to have read the arc)

Bashing power is good when the target can't do anything but absorb the hit.
On something like a person or movable object what is the result from bashing power?
It's that of a person kicking a ball. Most of the energy go to waste
While a Thorn takes the air out of the ball.


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Slicing and blunt force trauma operate on the exact same principals.

Not that it matters when none of the Espada are faster then top tier Strawhats like Zoro, Sanji and Luffy.

And so on. Also its pretty hilarious that Bad BD brought up Grimmjow's Ultimate attack, when even Ichigo was capable of physically overcoming it.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> He punched the island in two, but the strawhats standing  a few meters away were fine. The espada are more than capable of dodging his punches.



Moria wasn't aiming at the others, the "island splitter" punch was just a demonstration of what's to follow. The speed of his punches thereafter were fast, G2 Luffy had difficulties avoiding them, who's several times faster than any of the Espada.



BAD BD said:


> Luffy punches through steel. He doesn't cut steel.



Never said he cuts steal, Lucci and higher tier than him do.

Besides, the sheer blunt force that goes through steel alone is much more deadlier and impressive than cutting force from Espada, that barely cut people in Bleach, let alone those in OP.




BAD BD said:


> Jounin-level jutsu
> Jounin-level jutsu
> Jounin-level jutsu
> Jounin-level jutsu



Oh that attack you mean, lol. The same attack that a half-dead Ichigo stopped with this sword, but that's not all. Ichigo actually cut through it, lawl. You really think that's going to affect Moria?

Grimmjow would probably die before he even attempts to do anything like that.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> *Slicing and blunt force trauma operate on the exact same principals.*
> 
> Not that it matters when none of the Espada are faster then top tier Strawhats like Zoro, Sanji and Luffy.
> 
> And so on. Also its pretty hilarious that Bad BD brought up Grimmjow's Ultimate attack, when even Ichigo was capable of physically overcoming it.




But on different scales, Slicing is focused on a small area where as blunt force on a larger area where it get's absorbed usually. A reason why a Sword cuts through stuff while a maze shatter your insides. 

physically... Remember Ichigo vs Jidanbou?


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Yeah, that is called striking force. Striking force is not equivalent to lifting strength in Bleach, so what is your point?


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Yet you don't seem to realize that moria isn't comparable to a solid wall.(and your'e the one who's supposed to have read the arc)
> 
> Bashing power is good when the target can't do anything but absorb the hit.
> On something like a person or movable object what is the result from bashing power?
> ...



Yet you don't seem to realize that Moria is so many times more durable than  a few meters of thick steel, wich comes down to him casually tanking all the Espada's hits, your point was?


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yeah, that is called striking force. Striking force is not equivalent to lifting strength in Bleach, so what is your point?




My point is you said 





> when even Ichigo was capable of physically overcoming it.



Ichigo ain't doing shit with Physically power alone he is using Reiatsu to enhance his powers.



And shattering steel... Look at Moria's size... I'd be surprised if not your typical Steel plate would bend under his weight alone.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Iris said:


> Moria wasn't aiming at the others, the "island splitter" punch was just a demonstration of what's to follow. The speed of his punches thereafter were fast, G2 Luffy had difficulties avoiding them, who's several times faster than any of the Espada.


So he won't be able to take out all of the espada with a single punch. Killing them will take time. 

Gear 2 Luffy had no problem dodging his punches. 



> Never said he cuts steal, Lucci and higher tier than him do.
> 
> Besides, the sheer blunt force that goes through steel alone is much more deadlier and impressive than cutting force from Espada, that barely cut people in Bleach, let alone those in OP.



Going by power scaling Zaraki's skin is harder than steel. The espada's skin is even harder.



> Oh that attack you mean, lol. The same attack that a half-dead Ichigo stopped with this sword, but that's not all. Ichigo actually cut through it, lawl. You really think that's going to affect Moria?
> 
> Grimmjow would probably die before he even attempts to do anything like that.



He just got out the way and cut it. He didn't stop it.

Tell me, how will Moria defend himself when his brain is under Zommari's control.?


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Gear Second Luffy is faster then Vizard Ichigo, Released Grimmjow, Released Noitora and Unpatched/Kendo Kenpachi, easily.

And Base Luffy was handled with ease by Doppleman. While Moria wasn't even talking Luffy seriously, the same Base Luffy who was smashing apart city blocks just by pushing two mansion sized multi-story buildings with ease.

So just because Gear Second Luffy dodged a few of his attacks, doesn't mean any of the Espada can, your still falling under that assocation fallacy.

Also where is this bullshit that Le Roux is going to do anything when all Moria needs to do his wack him with his Brick Bats?

Seriously stop grasping at straws.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Gear Second Luffy is faster then Vizard Ichigo, Released Grimmjow, Released Noitora and Unpatched/Kendo Kenpachi, easily.





Oh plz, cut that part from your argument it's a dead end for either side as it is none are able to show the other is faster.
For all i've seen Shunpo looks faster then Gear 2 Luffy, so if bankai is faster and Vaizard faster then this and he should have had power ups... bla bla bla. Dead End


Or what about your everyday Hollow are able to Run straight through a concrete wall without any damage, so what does that say about Bleach durability? When that is pretty much the bottom of the food chain (not counting the Pluses and the living)


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> So he won't be able to take out all of the espada with a single punch. Killing them will take time.
> 
> Gear 2 Luffy had no problem dodging his punches.



How will he not take them out with a single punch? Bleach chars are not even close to durable compared to OP chars and G2 Luffy is several times faster than any of the Espada's, like I said.



BAD BD said:


> Going by power scaling Zaraki's skin is harder than steel. The espada's skin is even harder.



lol wut? Espada's durability is nowhere close to that of Kenpachi's durability, the ONLY that comes close or equals Kenpachi's is Noitora, and even then.

Island splitting punch >>>>>>>>>>> steel.



BAD BD said:


> He just got out the way and cut it. He didn't stop it.



Uhm no, look at the scan again. Ichigo stops it with his sword, then proceeds cutting through it after.



BAD BD said:


> Tell me, how will Moria defend himself when his brain is under Zommari's control.?



By brick bat black boxing or punching him once, not like Zommari is fast in his released form, he's just standing there like a retarded fatass.

One punch would splatter him.

And then you'd hear Moria's laughter "Kiiiiishishishishiiii".

@Akatora: Feel free to prove LT's and Pip's OP speed calculations wrong then. Until then, G2 Luffy is many times faster than any Bleach char so far. Whiskey Peak Zoro and Kuro also look as fast as shunpo or soru, that doesn't mean they're as fast.

Edit: lol freaking Dalton or Doltan (sp?) was making mirages 200+ chapters ago, yet he's nowhere even close to soru speed.


----------



## Orion (Nov 20, 2008)

Brick bats o dead zommari,brick bats punch o dead anyone else repeat ect ect.


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Oh plz, cut that part from your argument it's a dead end for either side as it is none are able to show the other is faster.
> For all i've seen Shunpo looks faster then Gear 2 Luffy, so if bankai is faster and Vaizard faster then this and he should have had power ups... bla bla bla. Dead End



Style over substance fallacy.




> Or what about your everyday Hollow are able to Run straight through a concrete wall without any damage, so what does that say about Bleach durability? When that is pretty much the bottom of the food chain (not counting the Pluses and the living)



Same Hollows get harmed by a wooden telephone pole.


----------



## Fang (Nov 20, 2008)

Orion said:


> Brick bats o dead zommari,brick bats punch o dead anyone else repeat ect ect.



Don't forget they were more then fast enough to blitz Robin before she could even react just to use Clutch.


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

Iris said:


> How will he not take them out with a single punch? Bleach chars are not even close to durable compared to OP chars and G2 Luffy is several times faster than any of the Espada's, like I said.



There is a calc that puts Ichigo at 9000m/s, granted it makes too many assumptions.

There is nothing to suggest that Bleach speed is much slower than One Piece.



> lol wut? Espada's durability is nowhere close to that of Kenpachi's durability, the ONLY that comes close or equals Kenpachi's is Noitora, and even then.
> 
> Island splitting punch >>>>>>>>>>> steel.



Grimmjow catching Ichigo's sword barehanded.

Dordorni kicking Ichigo's blade with his foot.

Yes, if moria could land a punch it would kill an espada. My point was while Moria is busy punching the other espada can attack.



> Uhm no, look at the scan again. Ichigo stops it with his sword, then proceeds cutting through it after.



He blocks it, but is unable to stop  it.



> By brick bat black boxing or punching him once, not like Zommari is fast in his released form, he's just standing there like a retarded fatass.
> 
> One punch would splatter him.
> 
> And then you'd hear Moria's laughter "Kiiiiishishishishiiii".



It is not like Moria will go straight for Zommari before anyone else. Zommari would be likely to stand back and use Amor in a fight when he is supporting 5 other espada. Moria would more likely to attack those who attack him.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

TWF said:


> Style over substance fallacy.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




With no damage other then getting groggy


----------



## BAD BD (Nov 20, 2008)

700 pound minimum telephone pole.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

BAD BD said:


> There is a calc that puts Ichigo at 9000m/s, granted it makes too many assumptions.
> 
> There is nothing to suggest that Bleach speed is much slower than One Piece.



Calcs please or that's invalid. Oh wait, since it makes too many assumptions like you say, it's invalid anyway. Bleach speed doesn't come close to OP speed really, it's all about style, dissapearring and re-appearing.



BAD BD said:


> Grimmjow catching Ichigo's sword barehanded.
> 
> Dordorni kicking Ichigo's blade with his foot.



Grimmjow catching Bankai Ichigo's sword barehanded is nothing impressive, Dordorni kicking Base Ichigo's blade even less.



BAD BD said:


> Yes, if moria could land a punch it would kill an espada. My point was while Moria is busy punching the other espada can attack.



Yeah, and everytime he lands the hit it's one Espada less, you also have his double and brickbats, brickbats attack fast and consist of over 1000 bats.

So, how long do you think they'll survive if all it takes it one punch, 20 seconds before they all die? half a minute perhaps? Even if the other Espada attack, Moria simply tanks it. If the Espada are smart and they all take distance instead rushing like a chicken without head, the match could last a bit longer, until brick black box finishes them off one by one, however if they simply charge like fools the match will be over very soon, either way the outcome is inevitable.



BAD BD said:


> He blocks it, but is unable to stop  it.



Fact is, he did block it. The blade's didn't harm him at all, and that's a half dead Ichigo.



BAD BD said:


> It is not like Moria will go straight for Zommari before anyone else. Zommari would be likely to stand back and use Amor in a fight when he is supporting 5 other espada. Moria would more likely to attack those who attack him.



And how do you know Zommari won't start talking bullshit first or charge in first with his un-released form, or better yet Moria can just brick bat him to death from a long distance, or if you prefer using double to trick him while getting behind as what happend to Robin.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Well Aku Shinigami wrote one of the Bleach calcs and he tried to do everything possible to keep bleach at a minimum.

People actually argued that Ishida's arrows moved at the speed of normal arrows or slower... Yet he still reached the 2000+


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Well Aku Shinigami wrote one of the Bleach calcs and he tried to do everything possible to keep bleach at a minimum.



And he failed at it.



Akatora said:


> People actually argued that Ishida's arrows moved at the speed of normal arrows or slower... Yet he still reached the 2000+



Wich has nothing to do with movement speed, however.


----------



## Akatora (Nov 20, 2008)

Iris said:


> And he failed at it.
> 
> 
> 
> Wich has nothing to do with movement speed, however.




I don't remember LT's to be much better.



Though one of the main reasons was trying to use the laws of our Nature in OP, which is more of a dream world then anything trying to follow the laws of nature

When a series so obviously shits upon so many of the rules, how can one make useful calculations using just the Rules that fit best into there calculations at the time.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

Akatora said:


> I don't remember LT's to be much better.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Because OP still consists of real life material, such as bullets, cannons etc... added with logical math and panel meassuring it can be done not precisely, but almost with a few flaws. Law of Nature is irrelevant. Bleach doesn't use any real life material nor substance, not to mention Kubo's tendency with special effects and style.

Otherwise if you don't like LT's calcs, I'd say feel free to disprove them


----------



## Ork (Nov 20, 2008)

Question: Can moria counter 5 People flying around at high altitudes firing building buster laser blasts at him?
I personally never saw anything from him that implied anything of the sort. 
His bats can fly and all, but they don't demonstrate Sonido level speed.
Flying is a huge advantage against landbound foes, even ones with projectile attacks.


----------



## Iris (Nov 20, 2008)

Absence said:


> Question: Can moria counter 5 People flying around at high altitudes firing building buster laser blasts at him?
> I personally never saw anything from him that implied anything of the sort.
> His bats can fly and all, but they don't demonstrate Sonido level speed.
> Flying is a huge advantage against landbound foes, even ones with projectile attacks.



Double + Brickbats? Brickbats are fast enough they caught G2 Luffy, who's faster than any Espada.

Or, brickbat black box, take your pick.


----------



## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

What is with this Sonido speed thing? Base Luffy copied Soru, and his Soru speed was still significantly slower than whatever it is he does in G2.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Oh plz, cut that part from your argument it's a dead end for either side as it is none are able to show the other is faster.
> For all i've seen Shunpo looks faster then Gear 2 Luffy, so if bankai is faster and Vaizard faster then this and he should have had power ups... bla bla bla. Dead End


Zoro's canon feat. It's a lot more substantial than: oh lol, Byakuya dissapeared or lololololololol Whiskey Peak level afterimages with bankai ichigo.



> Or what about your everyday Hollow are able to Run straight through a concrete wall without any damage, so what does that say about Bleach durability? When that is pretty much the bottom of the food chain (not counting the Pluses and the living)


What does that say?

You call that durabillity? That's not even Arlong Park level.




Akatora said:


> Though one of the main reasons was trying to use the laws of our Nature in OP, which is more of a dream world then anything trying to follow the laws of nature
> 
> When a series so obviously shits upon so many of the rules, how can one make useful calculations using just the Rules that fit best into there calculations at the time.



That's pure bullshit. Name me one law of fysics that One Piece breaks?
Do they ignore gravity? Do they not use the law of force? Do they not breathe?

This is a cop-out at best.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Sonic booms and conservation of energy and such. And electricity on the moon.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Sonic booms and conservation of energy and such. And electricity on the moon.



Conservation of energy is a trope that gets broken in nearly every fiction. As for sonic booms, that might have more to do with Oda's art style.

I'll give you electricity but... meh he's Enel for a reason.


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## Iris (Nov 21, 2008)

Even then, neither sonic booms nor inconsistencies in law of fysics are necessary to calculate said speed. 

We all know OP speed > Bleach speed by far


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Iris said:


> Even then, neither sonic booms nor inconsistencies in law of fysics are necessary to calculate said speed.
> 
> We all know OP speed > Bleach speed by far



Besides, making sonic booms constantly is also very annoying to draw. On that note, you hardly see sonic booms in manga. Most shockwaves are force waves.


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## Aldric (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> His bats can fly and all, but they don't demonstrate Sonido level speed.



It's true they don't demonstrate Sonido level speed, they are far faster than that

Because they caught Gear 2nd Luffy

That's all that needs to be said, and this has yet to be countered by something that made a speck of sense (hint: not that "momentum" hogwash)


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## Rashou (Nov 21, 2008)

Aldric said:


> It's true they don't demonstrate Sonido level speed, they are far faster than that
> 
> Because they caught Gear 2nd Luffy
> 
> That's all that needs to be said, and this has yet to be countered by something that made a speck of sense (hint: not that "momentum" hogwash)


He trapped a Gear 2nd Luffy that was incapable of moving, outside of jumping from the wall in a linear fashion. There's still this even if you ignore the "momentum hogwash". 

Why is black box the deciding factor in the first place, though? He can trap only one of them at a time and the other five will start pounding him with Cero (or Gran Rey Cero) when he does that, and won't stop until he's dead.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

They pound him with Cero for no significant damage? Okay.


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## Rashou (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> They pound him with Cero for no significant damage? Okay.


Significant enough to make him cough up some Shadows, I'd think. Simple slashes from released Noitora and released Grimmjaw do major damage to the huge towers in Las Noches and their Cero would be much stronger.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Rashou said:


> Significant enough to make him cough up some Shadows, I'd think. Simple slashes from released Noitora and released Grimmjaw do major damage to the huge towers in Las Noches and their Cero would be much stronger.


Where does it say that Cero > Sword slash? And mere building busting is fodder level in OP these days.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Rashou said:


> Significant enough to make him cough up some Shadows, I'd think. Simple slashes from released Noitora and released Grimmjaw do major damage to the huge towers in Las Noches and their Cero would be much stronger.



Non-sequitor.


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## Akatora (Nov 21, 2008)

Shanks losing his arm to a Seaking means he was weaker then fodder then?


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Shanks losing his arm to a Seaking means he was weaker then fodder then?


Nobody knows what kind of power Sea Kings pack in those jaws in the first place. And anyway, it has to do with shifting author's intent. Oda never planned for OP to last so long and get so powerful.


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## Akatora (Nov 21, 2008)

Or didn't plan for fans to interpret his story the way they do


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## Aldric (Nov 21, 2008)

Rashou said:


> He trapped a Gear 2nd Luffy that was incapable of moving, outside of jumping from the wall in a linear fashion. There's still this even if you ignore the "momentum hogwash".



He was perfectly capable of moving as he was shown doing so before in the exact same situation, no it wasn't "tower like things" and no it wasn't rubble either

Congratulations for reaching Phenom Brigade level of obnoxiousness in the way you endlessly repeat your idiotic arguments even after they've been disproven a hundred times


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Shanks losing his arm to a Seaking means he was weaker then fodder then?



Shanks LET the seaking take his arm. Gambling it on the new generation and all.
It was symbolic and a plot device and you know it.


----------



## Roronoa-zoro (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Shanks losing his arm to a Seaking means he was weaker then fodder then?



Maybe it was a high tier Seaking. 

But am sure Oda wanted a dramatic effect or maybe idk Shanks wanted to save Luffy at all costs who knows? 

But am pretty sure Shanks>that 1st chapter Seaking. Or do you believe that Nami can beat Luffy,Sanji and Zoro too?


----------



## Ork (Nov 21, 2008)

Iris said:


> Double + Brickbats? Brickbats are fast enough they caught G2 Luffy, who's faster than any Espada.
> 
> Or, brickbat black box, take your pick.



He is? Prove it please.
Tired of all this "he's faster cuz I say so"
People seem to think that luffy is faster than sonido with his Soru. 
Please, prove it.


----------



## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> He is? Prove it please.
> Tired of all this "he's faster cuz I say so"
> People seem to think that luffy is faster than sonido with his Soru.
> Please, prove it.



W7 Zoro was calced at Mach 5. Blueno shat on that speed and later Luffy shat on Blueno.

Reply me with any quantifiable Bleach feat that can beat the Mach 5 range.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> He is? Prove it please.
> Tired of all this "he's faster cuz I say so"
> People seem to think that luffy is faster than sonido with his Soru.
> Please, prove it.


Actual concrete speed feats + power scaling places base Luffy alone at faster than most of the Espada. Gear 2 is, of course, faster than that. In any case, trying to prove that any of the Espada are faster than Luffy would be a lot harder, so please go ahead and try.


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## Akatora (Nov 21, 2008)

both series seem to be overestimated.

March 5 Zoro lmao possible to see how that number showed up?

Kizaru and Enel I'll give you that should be extremely fast in there logia forms, but not necessary in human form.

Had OP characters been that fast there'd hardly be any need of Ships.

Also Luffy can ex span to no end that's the main source of his power from what I've seen.


----------



## Ork (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Actual concrete speed feats + power scaling places base Luffy alone at faster than most of the Espada. Gear 2 is, of course, faster than that. In any case, trying to prove that any of the Espada are faster than Luffy would be a lot harder, so please go ahead and try.



Tis not necessary for me to prove anything, you claim that Moria's bats are faster than sonido, citing some calcs that I've seen no evidence of, and that luffy in base form is faster than espada.  Burden of proof is on you.

Moria basically has his bats then? I'd still vote espada. If all he can relaly do is spam bats at them, they can just spam Cero, and in certain cases, Gran Ray Cero.

As Akatora said, for someone moving at mach 5, water would be solid underfoot. It wouldn't have time to lose shape and deform before he took the next step. What would the point of ships be?

Mach 5 is about 1650 metres per second at sea level. If anyone in the OP verse was capable of that kind of speed, there would be no need for ships. Seriously. There would be no need for armies either.
Battles would take place in nanoseconds as opposed to minutues.
To look at it from another point of view, if I was moving at that speed, a weight the size of my fist, say 1 pound, impacting a wall would erase it from existance, then keep on going through every wall in the city and out the other side. Railguns have been designed as ship to ship weapons, and they fire projectiles the size of that at mach 5-7. 

A OP character moving at that speed would annihilate an entire continent so fast it would be a joke.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> Tis not necessary for me to prove anything, you claim that Moria's bats are faster than sonido, citing some calcs that I've seen no evidence of, and that luffy in base form is faster than espada.  Burden of proof is on you.
> 
> Moria basically has his bats then? I'd still vote espada. If all he can relaly do is spam bats at them, they can just spam Cero, and in certain cases, Gran Ray Cero.


He caught G2 Luffy. Now prove that they are faster than G2 Luffy.
And once again, Cero's not going to bother Moria. Building busters are doing nuts against him.


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## MdB (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Or didn't plan for fans to interpret his story the way they do



Another classic from the fast thinker..... Akatora.

That happened in the first chapter of the entire damn series. Oda never intended One Piece to be so long as it is now, so it's very probable that he never intended to make his characters as strong as they are currently, especially the top-tiers. 

Not to mention a fucking great white shark can already tear through steel, let alone a fish on a whole other magnitude in jaw strength.


----------



## Ork (Nov 21, 2008)

MdB said:


> Another classic from the fast thinker..... Akatora.
> 
> That happened in the first chapter of the entire damn series. Oda never intended One Piece to be so long as it is now, so it's very probable that he never intended to make his characters as strong as they are currently, especially the top-tiers.
> 
> Not to mention a fucking great white shark can already tear through steel, let alone a fish on a whole other magnitude in jaw strength.



How much steel are we talking about here? Sharks can't tear through MUCH steel. Steel>Sharks.


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## Rashou (Nov 21, 2008)

Aldric said:


> He was perfectly capable of moving as he was shown doing so before in the exact same situation, no it wasn't "tower like things" and no it wasn't rubble either
> 
> Congratulations for reaching Phenom Brigade level of obnoxiousness in the way you endlessly repeat your idiotic arguments even after they've been disproven a hundred times


I didn't say he was incapable of moving. 

The anime clearly shows it as rubble (of the towers before the mast, or maybe even part of the then broken mast, doesn't matter) that he moved off of, and the manga seems to show the same. 



> Building busters are doing nuts against him.


The most any of the strawhats has done with one attack is bust buildings. Luffy's Jet Rocket, that hasn't shown to be any stronger than that, knocked out about 20 shadows from Moria. Unless you've got evidence of Luffy's Jet Rocket being more than a single building buster, then it's not out of range of normal released attacks, and thus not out of the range of Cero. 

Off topic: Why the hell is this still in the main battledome?!


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Alabasta Luffy was shaking down an entire city block with one attack. Moria took Nightmare Luffy's Thunderstorm and survived, so yeah... Way beyond mere building busting.


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## Rashou (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Alabasta Luffy was shaking down an entire city block with one attack. Moria took Nightmare Luffy's Thunderstorm and survived, so yeah... Way beyond mere building busting.


By "Single attack" I meant one single move. Alabasta Luffy pounding that block for several hits- probably coming into the hundreds of hits range.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> Tis not necessary for me to prove anything, you claim that Moria's bats are faster than sonido, citing some calcs that I've seen no evidence of, and that luffy in base form is faster than espada.  Burden of proof is on you.
> 
> Moria basically has his bats then? I'd still vote espada. If all he can relaly do is spam bats at them, they can just spam Cero, and in certain cases, Gran Ray Cero.
> 
> ...


Your misrepresentation of physics amuses me.

People getting massive speedburst for short distances is common in manga.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

Rashou said:


> By "Single attack" I meant one single move. Alabasta Luffy pounding that block for several hits- probably coming into the hundreds of hits range.


And? No Espada can replicate that destruction in the same timeframe.


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## Rashou (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> And? No Espada can replicate that destruction in the same timeframe.


We have no idea about that. On the other hand, we do KNOW that an attack on the level of Jet Rocket, which hasn't shown anything even building busting, is enough to knock 1/50 of Moria's shadows out. We also know that normal attacks from Espada can break apart buildings in their transformed states, and their Cero would be stronger than their normal attacks. Assuming Moria goes for the kill on one Espada, he'll be hit by Cero by _five_ other members and start puking up shadows, during which time he's paralyzed and so hammered more by Cero, Gran Rey Cero, and any other attacks they decide to use. 

Moria would destroy any of these guys individually, and he could probably take on up to three at once and have a fair match. But 6? I just don't see it. That said I'm going to concede this debate. These circular arguments are kind of boring now. Maybe when Halibel and Ulquiorra release this thread will be in the right section more interesting. 

Pleasure debating with you guys.


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## lambda (Nov 21, 2008)

Base Luffy pushes down buildings. Jet anything is a good deal above building busting.


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## Iris (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> both series seem to be overestimated.
> 
> March 5 Zoro lmao possible to see how that number showed up?
> 
> ...



Wow, what idiocy is this Akatora? Why do you even bother brining up Kizaru and Enel, they don't even have to move fast in their human forum if particularly Kizaru can move at the speed of fucking light.

Why wouldn't there be a need of ships? That isn't traveling speed, that's combat short-burst speeds we're talking about, and reaction time speeds of course. Besides having a ship is more of a symbol for any pirate, think a bit...a pirate without a ship? rofl. And then you seem to forget many have DF's, if their feet were to touch seawater they'd immediately sink.


@Absence: 

Here's the speed of the monster trio:

Agony win sparkles for this guy

Feel free to disprove it.


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## Ork (Nov 21, 2008)

Zetta said:


> Your misrepresentation of physics amuses me.
> 
> People getting massive speedburst for short distances is common in manga.



Which is the case with Sonio.
 Misrepresenting physics? I gave hard numbers. 

This forum is far too infested with OPtards, I concede the debate as well.
Argument is boring when you're the only one arguing and the rest are just going "LUFFY IS THE BEST LOLOLOL".
Bai.


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## Iris (Nov 21, 2008)

rofl, this is a classic too.

After they can't come up with anything to counter our argumets it's "I concedz cuz the thread is filled with OPtards". 

I lol'd.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 21, 2008)

I would only trust those speed calcs for Zoro really. Quite a few leaps are taken between Zoro and Luffy, especially after Oda specifically states that Luffy = Zoro > Sanji in his databooks.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

Absence said:


> Which is the case with Sonio.
> Misrepresenting physics? I gave hard numbers.
> 
> This forum is far too infested with OPtards, I concede the debate as well.
> ...



This is what we call the Aizen Sosuke method. I hope you can live with yourself.


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## lambda (Nov 21, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> I would only trust those speed calcs for Zoro really. Quite a few leaps are taken between Zoro and Luffy, especially after Oda specifically states that Luffy = Zoro > Sanji in his databooks.


 Didn't Zoro himself admit that Luffy was better than him? Something like the fact that only Luffy stood a chance against Rob Lucci.


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## Zetta (Nov 21, 2008)

lambda said:


> Didn't Zorro himself admit that Luffy was better than him? Something like the fact that only Lufy stood a chance against Rob Lucci.



That's a big debate in the OP battledome:

OP databook versus manga scans: which is more canon?


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## Iris (Nov 21, 2008)

Akatora said:


> Seem to be outdated.



Yet correct.


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## Akatora (Nov 21, 2008)

Iris said:


> Yet correct.




Did you try opening the link?


Every link in that thread seem to be an error 404 here, that's why i said it appear to be outdated.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 21, 2008)

Partial multi-size


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## Iris (Nov 22, 2008)

That just means Zoro and the rest are even faster now.


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## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

lambda said:


> Didn't Zoro himself admit that Luffy was better than him? Something like the fact that only Lufy stood a chance against Rob Lucci.



The difference between Luffy to Sanji and Zoro as of the end of Enies Lobby was the same as Lucci to Kaku and Jyabura.

And when Luffy was talking to Lucci, even he admitted that he had to stop Lucci because he believed that Rob could probably kill all of his comrades.

So basically, as much as Oda thinks it, Luffy is always going to be vastly superior to his top two crew mates.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 22, 2008)

It seems so wrong to refer to him as just Rob. Rob Lucci? Sure. Lucci? Definitely. But Rob? It's not a very intimidating name.


----------



## KazeYama (Nov 22, 2008)

TWF said:


> The difference between Luffy to Sanji and Zoro as of the end of Enies Lobby was the same as Lucci to Kaku and Jyabura.
> 
> And when Luffy was talking to Lucci, even he admitted that he had to stop Lucci because he believed that Rob could probably kill all of his comrades.
> 
> So basically, as much as Oda thinks it, Luffy is always going to be vastly superior to his top two crew mates.



Shouldn't Oda's words about his own manga trump what you think? Zoro is stronger than Sanji by far and equal to Luffy. Luffy taking on Lucci could've just been about match ups as fighting Kaku would've been more dangerous as a sword user. Just because Luffy was the only one capable of beating Lucci doesn't mean he is stronger than Zoro. 

They were equal at whiskey peak and nothing since then has contradicted that. 

Asgard Moria takes all the espada too. Brick Bat cage followed by island splitting punch should mess them up.


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## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

Uh no, because by that logic people like Cell are solar system busters and Buu would then be a galaxy buster with one shot blasts.


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## Nuzzie (Nov 22, 2008)

hell oda probably doesn't even write the databooks


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## Iris (Nov 22, 2008)

KazeYama said:


> Shouldn't Oda's words about his own manga trump what you think? Zoro is stronger than Sanji by far and equal to Luffy. Luffy taking on Lucci could've just been about match ups as fighting Kaku would've been more dangerous as a sword user. Just because Luffy was the only one capable of beating Lucci doesn't mean he is stronger than Zoro.
> 
> They were equal at whiskey peak and nothing since then has contradicted that.



It was never said that Zoro was equal to Luffy in speed, in stamina? Yes. In strenght? Probably, save G3...although Luffy has so much better strenght feats, I don't see Zoro carrying that Golden Ball, much less casually running on Jack with it. But in speed? No way, especially not G2 speed. Luffy is the Captian, it would be stupid that a 2nd hand mate would be in same terms of total strenght as the Captian, especially with the MAIN character. And Zoro acknowledges Luffy's strenght and believes in him, but don't say they're in equal terms of every attribute.

Lucci was twice as strong as Kaku, no matter how you see it. His douriki was almost double of Kaku's, that's a major difference in fighting power. And iirc even Nami said something like, Luffy has this instinct to always pick the strongest opponent even though he's naturally dumb/naive.

So yes, G2 Luffy would obliterate Kaku regardless, Zoro however..would've been destroyed by Lucci, at that time.


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## lambda (Nov 22, 2008)

KazeYama said:


> Shouldn't Oda's words about his own manga trump what you think?


Because the words in the manga aren't Oda's?


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## Zetta (Nov 22, 2008)

Dear Library moderators

Here's the debate from the OP battledome.

A lot of the problems come from Databook Yellow (published 2007) that says Post Enel Lobby Luffy = Post Enies Lobby Zoro.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 22, 2008)

Erm... At the start of Enies Lobby, Zoro was weaker than Luffy because he did not have an equivalent to the Gears. It's quite probably that Zoro himself, as the First Mate, would know about them. If we read the fights again, Luffy with the Gears was constantly struggling against Rob Lucci, as was Zoro without anything resembling the Gears. Then poof, Zoro gets Asura and fucking curbs Kaku. So by the end of the Enies Lobby arc, all we can say is that Luffy =/> Lucci, and Zoro >>>>>>>>> Kaku.

And after what Kuma did to Zoro in Thriller Bark, do you honestly think that Zoro = Luffy doesn't hold? On top of his own fatigue and damage, Zoro had to take everything that left Luffy KOed and was STILL conscious after that.

Zoro has been constantly disadvantaged since the beginning of the series in almost every major fight they had. I'll prove it.

Morgan = Tied down and without swords.
Buggy = Prematurely injured and incapable of damaging Buggy.
Kurohadoll = Using only one sword.
Don Krieg = Fighting goddamned Mihawk.
Arlong = Injured after getting curbed by Mihawk.
Croc was essentially the only time where they were equal, but Zoro won on his first fight, while Luffy had to readjust his strategy twice. They both ended up near dead, so that's that.
Enel = Lol, no immunity.
CP9 = No Asura
Moria = Only two swords, and never went Nightmare
Shabondy = Injured after the rape that Kuma gave him.


----------



## C. Hook (Nov 22, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Zoro has been constantly *disadvantaged* since the beginning of the series in almost every major fight they had. I'll prove it.



If he won the fight, then he had the advantage. If he lost the fight, he had the disadvantage. Zoro won against most of his enemies, so he had the advantage in those fights. Unless you're trying to say that Zoro's fights were *unfair* instead of *disadvantaged*, which would make more sense.



skiboydoggy said:


> Morgan = Tied down and without swords. *...HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE????*
> Buggy = Prematurely injured and incapable of damaging Buggy.* Major fight? Against Cabaji, not Buggy. However, he was injured, but it's not like it was a major injury for Zoro. He's been fucking drilled in the chest while winning the battle. Besides, Cabaji is fodder.
> *Kurohadoll = Using only one sword. *And he was fighting fodder who got slaughtered easily by Kuro. Your point being?*
> Don Krieg = Fighting goddamned Mihawk. *Seriously, that counts? So can I then add Aokiji to Luffy's list of "disadvantaged" fights? *
> ...


----------



## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

Are people serious, Luffy wrecked a city block just by pushing two buildings apart. Zoro could barely slice himself out of a chimmeny.


----------



## Orion (Nov 22, 2008)

If barely is once he had a sword demolishing that chimney and building then sure,he did this with one sword and wrist strength...Link removed.


----------



## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

Luffy did so with negative leverage with one hand each. The feat doesn't compare at all. And even others noted that there is a huge difference in each arc between Luffy to Sanji and Zoro.

Alabasta: Luffy destroyed an entire city block indirectly while punching through a dozen meters of solid bedrock.

Alabasta: Zoro threw a three or four story building at Das Bones and sliced through steel while heavily wounded.

Big difference.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 22, 2008)

C. Hook said:


> If he won the fight, then he had the advantage. If he lost the fight, he had the disadvantage. Zoro won against most of his enemies, so he had the advantage in those fights. Unless you're trying to say that Zoro's fights were *unfair* instead of *disadvantaged*, which would make more sense.



He had a disadvantage that prevented him from fighting on a equal level with his opponent and competing on an even level with Luffy. Hence, disadvantaged, relative to Luffy.

_Morgan = Tied down and without swords. *...HOW THE FUCK IS THAT A FIGHT IN THE FIRST PLACE????[*/I]
The fact that he would have curbed the entire town if not for it? The point is, he was pwnt before there could have been a fight, and would not have needed Luffy's intervention.

Buggy = Prematurely injured and incapable of damaging Buggy. *Major fight? Against Cabaji, not Buggy. However, he was injured, but it's not like it was a major injury for Zoro. He's been fucking drilled in the chest while winning the battle. Besides, Cabaji is fodder.*
He was incapable of hurting Buggy, and hence went on to fight Cabaji. Or did you not notice the blitz Zoro gave Buggy. And injuries obviously have a bearing on his performance, even if he can continue fighting with only three ounces of blood left.

Kurohadoll = Using only one sword. *And he was fighting fodder who got slaughtered easily by Kuro. Your point being?*
He also slaughtered once he got his three swords, or did you not notice? The cat duo was completely no challenge for him once fully armed, while Luffy had a tremendously difficult time facing Kuro.

Don Krieg = Fighting goddamned Mihawk. *Seriously, that counts? So can I then add Aokiji to Luffy's list of "disadvantaged" fights?*
Relative to Luffy, sure. He was at a disadvantage because his enemy is impossible to defeat, unlike Krieg, who is relative fodder. Hence this fight, like all the others, is not a good show of Zoro's ability relative to Luffy's.

Croc was essentially the only time where they were equal, but Zoro won on his first fight, while Luffy had to readjust his strategy twice. They both ended up near dead, so that's that. *Croc is so much more powerful than Mr. 1, it isn't even funny.*
Point being? Luffy got stomped twice, while Zoro won on his first try. Not only that, the wet blood thing was complete PIS. Luffy should have gotten curbed AGAIN on any normal day. Not a good show of relative ability, like I said. And Mr. 1 is the second strongest member of Baroque Works, and the difference in ability is never explicitly stated. A blocked attack from Mr. 1 can shatter buildings already.

Enel = Lol, no immunity. *His major fights were against Braham and the iron sword guy, and in both those fights he was not disadvantaged.*
And yet he stood no chance against the guy Luffy beat. However, he was not immune to the electric attacks, nor could he damage Enel. So this is once again, a disadvantage Zoro had relative to Luffy, and therefore this arc is not a good show of relative ability, like all the others.

CP9 = No Asura *...First of all, that's not a disadvantage, since he never had USED Asura to that point. Second of all... He did use Asura in the Kaku fight.*
You're missing the point. If you had read the bit above this list, you would have figured it out. Luffy was running his Gears right from the start of his fight against Lucci, and only won because of his friends cheering for him, and even then, was incapable of moving after the fight. Zoro fought relatively evenly with Kaku, even though he was handcuffed to Ussop and shit for the start of the fight. However, once he mastered his Asua, he fucking CURBED Kaku and continued to fight the Buster Call troops. So by the end of the arc, there is no longer any basis for a comparison in power.

Moria = Only two swords, *And Ryuuma only used one. However, I'll give you this, even though Zoro has proven himself perfectly capable with only two swords.*
Did you miss the bit where Zoro uses a Three Sword Style? That's like saying a Samurai is not disadvantaged against a fencer when they're both using foils. Zoro's style was completely limited against Ryuuma.

and never went Nightmare *Oh please, don't tell me you actually are thinking that Zoro stood a chance against regular Moria, much less his Asguard form. Zoro was getting absolutely raped by Oz in a fair fight (Wait, fair? He had 8 people on his side!!!).*
And you think Luffy could have done better? Oh wait, it was his Nightmare form that beat Oz. A one off powerup that will never occur again. Against Moria? We don't know what Zoro could have done. Very likely he could have managed the same thing with his Asura.

Shabondy = Injured after the rape that Kuma gave him. *His only major fight had him with the entire crew at his side. Sorry, but if anyone had an unfair fight, it was the Pacifista.*
So the fact that he was being CARRIED AROUND does not scream of being disadvantaged to you? So why was Luffy fighting while Zoro was useless in this arc? Because he had a disadvantage._


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## Orion (Nov 22, 2008)

TWF said:


> Luffy did so with negative leverage with one hand each. The feat doesn't compare at all. And even others noted that there is a huge difference in each arc between Luffy to Sanji and Zoro.
> 
> Alabasta: Luffy destroyed an entire city block indirectly while punching through a dozen meters of solid bedrock.
> 
> ...



And luffy can stretch and compress himself,zoro had even less room to move in he litterally did that on all wrist strength,zoro is not majorly behind luffy in power I doubt he ever will be.


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## Iris (Nov 22, 2008)

Wait...did you just compare those duo cat fodder to Kuro?

You're not serious, are you?

I agree Zoro isn't that far behind Luffy, but putting him on equal terms of overall strenght is a bit too much.

Besides, this isn't a question about Zoro having same strenght or stamina as Luffy, it's about speed and Luffy is obviously faster.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 22, 2008)

Iris said:


> Wait...did you just compare those duo cat fodder to Kuro?
> 
> You're not serious, are you?
> 
> ...


You realise that L_T put G2 Luffy at more than SIX TIMES Zoro's speed? It'll take a hell lot of strength, skill, and durability to make up for it.

And I'm just saying that there is no reason to use that fight to put Zoro beneath Luffy, t'is all.


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## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

Orion said:


> And luffy can stretch and compress himself,zoro had even less room to move in he litterally did that on all wrist strength,zoro is not majorly behind luffy in power I doubt he ever will be.



Luffy couldn't stretch at all the entire time that Lucci BFRed him in between those two buildings during Water 7.

In fact, he never compressed himself either. He did that with negative leverage, in a neutral position, with only the strength in each of his arms. Without the bracing of the rest of his body.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Nov 22, 2008)

Evil_Pitlord said:


> grimmjow, Ulquirroa, Neliel, noitra, halibel, and zommari vs the lord of depths(or was it deeps? ) who wins?
> 
> they can go release and moria is Asguard form at nightime



...
Asgard Moria could barely control himself. After attacking Luffy once, and shadow boxing him, he leaking shadows and shit. Actually, I'm not sure if that's right. Did Luffy hit him before he started spitting out shadows ? 

Anyway,

what's the point of using Espada whose abilities we haven't seen?
what's the point of using Moria in a form that should of 100% amped him by all acounts, but that fought like shit in the overall sense ? Also, I don't remember Moria that well. What does making it nightime do ?

Meh. 
Zommari uses control ability on Moria's head, but would that control Moria or a single shadow I wonder.  Likewise, whose ability comes out on top when they clash. Soveringty vs Df 100%= coin flip.....bama

Now, if we're using the Moria we've never seen who should have been 100% awesome ogg powerscaling/common sense, he'd murder everything. 

-/


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## Pimp of Pimps (Nov 22, 2008)

*Those feat can't be compared to each other. Luffy's showing was impressive, but that's all he could do. If Zoro was in the same position who's to say he wouldn't have pushed the building apart as well?

and all zoro had was his wrist  not much to work with. *


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## Fang (Nov 22, 2008)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> *Those feat can't be compared to each other. Luffy's showing was impressive, but that's all he could do. If Zoro was in the same position who's to say he wouldn't have pushed the building apart as well?
> 
> and all zoro had was his wrist  not much to work with. *



Except that Luffy was in a harder position. And Luffy's best feats routinely shit on Zoro's.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Nov 22, 2008)

Redux-shika boo said:


> Meh.
> Zommari uses control ability on Moria's head, but would that control Moria or a single shadow I wonder.  Likewise, whose ability comes out on top when they clash. Soveringty vs Df 100%= coin flip



What is stopping Moria from just breaking out of Zommari's Sovereignty?
He certainly has the strength required.


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## Rashou (Nov 22, 2008)

Luffy's building pushing was definitely more impressive than when Zoro cut the Chimney, but Zoro back in Alabasta actually hefted the weight of an entire building and tossed it with critical injuries.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Nov 22, 2008)

TWF said:


> Except that Luffy was in a harder position. And Luffy's best feats routinely shit on Zoro's.


*
Luffy was in a position where he had to move the buildings.

All Zoro had to do was cut the chimney. 

Luffy's feat is more impressive simply because he was put in a harder position, nothing suggests Zoro couldn't have done the same. *


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Nov 22, 2008)

Oh. This became a Luffy Vs Zoro debate. Ic. Okay. Luffy=Zoro. Oda's canon stronger then your opinions.


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## Zetta (Nov 22, 2008)

Redux-shika boo said:


> Oh. This became a Luffy Vs Zoro debate. Ic. Okay. Luffy=Zoro. Oda's canon stronger then your opinions.



Ofcourse it has. You actually thought the Espada stood a chance against Moria?


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## Iris (Nov 23, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> You realise that L_T put G2 Luffy at more than SIX TIMES Zoro's speed? It'll take a hell lot of strength, skill, and durability to make up for it.
> 
> And I'm just saying that there is no reason to use that fight to put Zoro beneath Luffy, t'is all.



Because G2 is that much faster. It's pretty obvious actually.

Zoro is always going to be slightly weaker than Luffy, that's how it is.

Pirate King > No1 Swordsman.

And Luffy still has way better feats than Zoro, do you people seriously see Zoro carrying that Golden Ball during Skypea? Or better yet, running with it on Jack?


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

Iris said:


> Because G2 is that much faster. It's pretty obvious actually.



Six times is a lot. A hell lot. Zoro shouldn't even be able to see Luffy if Luffy was moving at six times of his speed. Of course, one could argue that the difference between their reaction speeds is negligible compared to that of their movement speeds, but really.



> Zoro is always going to be slightly weaker than Luffy, that's how it is.
> 
> Pirate King > No1 Swordsman.



Really? Because Mihawk = Two-armed Shanks.



> And Luffy still has way better feats than Zoro, do you people seriously see Zoro carrying that Golden Ball during Skypea? Or better yet, running with it on Jack?



I do actually, just that hitting Enel with it would be difficult because Zoro won't be able to 'bounce' the ball upwards without Gomu Gomu. Or are we forgetting what he was training with immediately after getting shredded in Alabasta?


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## Iris (Nov 23, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Six times is a lot. A hell lot. Zoro shouldn't even be able to see Luffy if Luffy was moving at six times of his speed. Of course, one could argue that the difference between their reaction speeds is negligible compared to that of their movement speeds, but really.



And that's exactly why we have reaction speed. Wich is again, obvious. And logical.



skiboydoggy said:


> Really? Because Mihawk = Two-armed Shanks.



Because Shanks = Pirate King?



skiboydoggy said:


> I do actually, just that hitting Enel with it would be difficult because Zoro won't be able to 'bounce' the ball upwards without Gomu Gomu. Or are we forgetting what he was training with immediately after getting shredded in Alabasta?



Yeah, Zoro is definitely capable of lifting 150+ Ton, especially carrying and running with it upward.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

Iris said:


> Because Shanks = Pirate King?



Because Shanks is one of the Yonkou, the people closest to the Pirate King's status. And he is weaker than Mihawk.



> Yeah, Zoro is definitely capable of lifting 150+ Ton, especially carrying and running with it upward.



Why the hell not? He was lifting that kind of weight half dead using pure wrist power in the immediate aftermath of Alabasta.


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## ichimaru17 (Nov 23, 2008)

> probably it is a tie, but since there is no such choice, i vote for zoro, by a hair.
> 
> zoro could tank any non-gear3 attack of luffy. while luffy can't afford to get a critical slash from zoro.
> 
> ...


my answer in the OPBD thread 

i do think that luffy would always be stronger than zoro (he would be able to defeat an enemy in a named arc that zoro can't) even by a bit, although zoro is just a bad matchup for him, unless luffy would show in the future that he could take a swordsman head-on even if the swordsman he had to face was of the same speed as him (not current zoro, of course)


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## Iris (Nov 23, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Because Shanks is one of the Yonkou, the people closest to the Pirate King's status. And he is weaker than Mihawk.



That logic doesn't make any sense. Shanks is not closest to being Pirate King, WhiteBeard is. And WB > Mihawk most likely.

Pirate King and Best swordsman are different titles and we can easily assume that Pirate King is harder to accomplish wich means it's also required to be more powerful. Mihawk said the same to Luffy.



skiboydoggy said:


> Why the hell not? He was lifting that kind of weight half dead using pure wrist power in the immediate aftermath of Alabasta.



Scans pl0x, I don't remember Zoro ever lifting anything close to 50 ton, yet alone 150+.


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## Zetta (Nov 23, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Because Shanks is one of the Yonkou, the people closest to the Pirate King's status. And he is weaker than Mihawk.


You can't prove that. Oda has even stated that Shanks hasn't lost any power from losing his arm.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

Zetta said:


> You can't prove that. Oda has even stated that Shanks hasn't lost any power from losing his arm.


Mihawk calls it a disadvantage and stopped sparring with Shanks. It suggests a drop in ability, if not necessarily in power. He probably gained a boost to his Haki to compensate or something like that. I really wouldn't be surprised.


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## Onomatopoeia (Nov 23, 2008)

Didn't Shanks lose his dominant hand?


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

Onomatopoeia said:


> Didn't Shanks lose his dominant hand?


Yes he did.


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## Zetta (Nov 23, 2008)

skiboydoggy said:


> Mihawk calls it a disadvantage and stopped sparring with Shanks. It suggests a drop in ability, if not necessarily in power. He probably gained a boost to his Haki to compensate or something like that. I really wouldn't be surprised.



Well, Mihawk only cares about swordsmanship so to him, someone losing a dominant arm, is indeed a disadvantage. Though everyone else who cares about general power would probably not even notice the difference.

Remember he had about 10 years to retrain his other arm. Considering most people here can do that in a year and shounen usually has a lot faster powergain, I don't really see a problem with assuming Shanks is still just as powerful.


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## mykel23 (Nov 23, 2008)

Oda never stated that Shanks got weaker when he lost his arms. And lol at the Mihawk = Shanks arguement.


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## Sylar (Nov 23, 2008)

All 7 Shichibukai are being called in to fight just ONE Yonkou.

Do the math.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

Sylar said:


> All 7 Shichibukai are being called in to fight just ONE Yonkou.
> 
> Do the math.


7 Shichibukai are seven people. One Yonkou includes his entire crew of hundreds of people.

Yeah...


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## Fang (Nov 23, 2008)

Yes seven Shichibukai are called against the Whitebeard Pirates, a Yonkou and his Division Commanders, because of hundreds of pirates with no fame in their crew, for the most part.

That's exactly why right.


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## Zetta (Nov 23, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yes seven Shichibukai are called against the Whitebeard Pirates, a Yonkou and his Division Commanders, because of hundreds of pirates with no fame in their crew, for the most part.
> 
> That's exactly why right.



You don't know if his crew is weak. I mean, Blackbeard was a part of it and even without his DF, he's still a physical beast.

I also doubt the division commanders are anything to scoff at considering they didn't even flinch at Shanks's Haki. And then we have Whitebeard himself...


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

TWF said:


> Yes seven Shichibukai are called against the Whitebeard Pirates, a Yonkou and his Division Commanders, because of hundreds of pirates with no fame in their crew, for the most part.
> 
> That's exactly why right.


Because the Marines are looking for an equal fight right? Rather than a rapestomp that would make Narutoverse fights here look tame.


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## Fang (Nov 23, 2008)

I already mentioned that the Division Commanders are apart of the reason given Ace, Marco and Joz's shownings.


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## Power16 (Nov 23, 2008)

dogs

They are planning on slaughtering WB with everything the World Government have(Marines and Shichibukai).


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## Fang (Nov 23, 2008)

Thanks for helping that point, Power. Again this showcases how scared the World Goverment truly is.

Also remember when they tried to stop two Yonkou, Whitebeard and Shanks, from simply talking to each other, just because the alliance between two Yonkou can upset the balance of power.

Not too mention that Whitebeard own ship, decimated over 28 Marine warships.


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 23, 2008)

The World Government is easily frightened, honestly. And from what we know of the Shichibukai, we already know that quite a few of them are not extremely impressive, and could very well be beaten by Whitebeard's Division Commanders.
Besides, the point is that the WG is out for unlubricated assrape, which is why they're bringing all their guns to bear. I'm sure the Admirals and Sengoku alone would prove troublesome for WB and Shanks as it is.

As far as the balance of power is concerned, it is a balance between WG, Marines, and Pirates, with the Marines being a separate entity from the WG. So yes, having two of the strongest pirates ally their crews would be devastating, especially when we consider what Luffy's crew can do with less than ten people. I'm going to go out on a limb and say that the only reason why three Admirals can counterbalance Seven Warlords and Four Emperors is because the Warlords and Emperors are not exactly the most united force in the world.


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## Codde (Nov 23, 2008)

From what is stated, the balance of power is between the Navy HQ, Shichibuikai, and the Emperors. The World Government as a whole isn't considered part of it. While the Navy HQ and Shichibukai are consiered equal and opposing powers.


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## Iris (Nov 23, 2008)

Okay. Someone remind me why we went off-topic for like 2-3 pages now.

Or wait, Moria does indeed stomp on these Espada, wich means /thread, no?


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## skiboydoggy (Nov 24, 2008)

Code said:


> From what is stated, the balance of power is between the Navy HQ, Shichibuikai, and the Emperors. The World Government as a whole isn't considered part of it. While the Navy HQ and Shichibukai are consiered equal and opposing powers.


Shichibukai are considered under the commander of the WG, compared the to Admirals, who are part of the Marines.


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