# Mihawk vs. OG legends



## Kai (Nov 25, 2013)

Curious to see how powerful this BD truly sees Mihawk.

Mihawk faces the OG's one at a time. 3 separate battles.

Round 1: Mihawk vs. Rayleigh
Round 2: Mihawk vs. Garp
Round 3: Mihawk vs. Sengoku

All OG's are in their late age.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 25, 2013)

1.) This one can go either way. Depends on Ray's stamina.
2.) Garp tenderizes Mihawk. High diff for Garp.
3.) Sengoku is about the same level as Garp, so he enlightens Mihawk in the art of ass whooping.


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## Goomoonryong (Nov 25, 2013)

Round 1: Mihawk wins high diff
Round 2: Could go either way
Round 3: Mihawk wins high diff


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## Vengeance (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk wins all. And isn't he still banned here or has this been changed?


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## Orca (Nov 25, 2013)

1. Beats Rayleigh very high diff.
2. Loses to Garp very high diff.
3. Could go either way.


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## Shinthia (Nov 25, 2013)

R 1 : Mihawk wins  high diff 

R 2 : Garp wins in between high to extreme diff

R 3 : Mihawk wins in between high to extreme diff.


i would put Sengoku b4 Ray cause i think in their prime they were about equal but Ray being inactive for too long made him a bit weaker than Sengoku (imo)


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## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk probably wins all of them. The fight with Garp is the only one he might lose, but the chances of him winning is more likely than him losing.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk wins all of them.

Garp could go either way.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> The fight with Garp is the only one he might lose, but the chances of him losing is more likely than him winning.


Glad we agree.


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## Enel (Nov 25, 2013)

Round 1: Mihawk high-diff
Round 2: Mihawk extreme-diff
Round 3: Mihawk high-diff

Rayleigh and Sengoku didn't fight that much since Rayleigh was just drinking and Sengoku had to command the marines. Garp was active all the time and could possibly win against him, but he also got old.


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## Kai (Nov 25, 2013)

For what reasons do people put Mihawk above Sengoku?

Or why do people say he loses against Garp but beats Sengoku? Sengoku and Garp are more or less on par with each other.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 25, 2013)

Kai said:


> For what reasons do people put Mihawk above Sengoku?


Because he's the WGS or something like that.


Kai said:


> Or why do people say he loses against Garp but beats Sengoku? *Sengoku and Garp are more or less on par with each other*.


Agreed. Sengoku managed to pin down an enraged Garp from murdering Akainu (I do believe Garp would have turned the Red Dog into paste if Sengoku hadn't stopped him).


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## Shiny (Nov 25, 2013)

mihawk wins all


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## Lawliet (Nov 25, 2013)

Wait, I just realized that my post don't make sense at all lol. I meant the chances of Mihawk winning are more likely than him losing lol


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## Dellinger (Nov 25, 2013)

Garp was the greatest marine of all time and the only one who could match Roger.

Sengoku is equal to him.

All my hestons.


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## Slenderman (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk takes all.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 25, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Wait, I just realized that my post don't make sense at all lol. I meant the chances of Mihawk losing are more likely than him winning lol


Yup, my thoughts exactly. 


White Hawk said:


> *Garp was the greatest marine of all time and the only one who could match Roger.
> 
> Sengoku is equal to him.*
> 
> All my hestons.


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## Halcyon (Nov 25, 2013)

1. Mihawk
2. toss
3. up


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## Dunno (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk high diff in all the fights. A tiny bit easier against Sengoku than against the other two.


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## Freechoice (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk is a shitty transylvanian with a pedo moustache.

Garp, Rayleigh, and Sengoku are awesome motherfuckers

You do the math.


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## November (Nov 25, 2013)

^ 
True


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## 2Broken (Nov 25, 2013)

Mihawk vs Garp is not any kind of toss up, Mihawk simply murders the old man.


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## Shinthia (Nov 25, 2013)

because Mihawk's kinfe is 2Broken ?


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## Lycka (Nov 25, 2013)

Lol Mihawk kills everyone but Garp.

Old Garp would fucking murder him, high difficulty.

EOS Zoro>>Old Garp>Mihawk>Akianu/Aokiji


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## 2Broken (Nov 25, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> because Mihawk's kinfe is 2Broken ?



Quite. 

And Mihawk is stronger than him. Now if it was Garp in his prime then it would be a toss up depending on how strong the two characters really are.


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## Lycka (Nov 25, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Quite.
> 
> And Mihawk is stronger than him. Now if it was Garp in his prime then it would be a toss up depending on how strong the two characters really are.



Prime garp is not a toss up lol.


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## 2Broken (Nov 25, 2013)

OPtiers said:


> Prime garp is not a toss up lol.



Can you tell me why that is?


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## Etherborn (Nov 25, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Can you tell me why that is?



Because old Garp beats him.


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## Freechoice (Nov 25, 2013)

2Broken said:


> Can you tell me why that is?



Because Mihawk is shit


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## Sentomaru (Nov 25, 2013)

Replace Vergo with Garp and Tashigi with Mihawk.

That's what happens when a swordsfaget challenges a superioir Haki user.

Now seriously... Mihawk is *banned * in the OPB for a reason. His name attracts way too much fanboys (i.e. OPtiers, zorofangirl24 etc.)


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## Freechoice (Nov 25, 2013)

Baron you're the best.


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## trance (Nov 25, 2013)

> Round 1: Mihawk vs. Rayleigh



Mihawk high-extreme difficulty.



> Round 2: Mihawk vs. Garp



Garp extreme difficulty.



> Round 3: Mihawk vs. Sengoku



Mihawk extreme difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 25, 2013)

OPtiers said:


> Lol Mihawk kills everyone but Garp.
> 
> Old Garp would fucking murder him, high difficulty.
> 
> EOS Zoro>>Old Garp>Akianu/Aokiji>Mihawk


There we are. 


What said:


> Mihawk is a shitty transylvanian with a pedo moustache.
> 
> Garp, Rayleigh, and Sengoku are awesome motherfuckers
> 
> You do the math.





Baron Tamago said:


> Replace Vergo with Garp and Tashigi with Mihawk.
> 
> *That's what happens when a swordsfaget challenges a superioir Haki user.*


What these two said. While Rayleigh is iffy, Mihawk loses against Garp simply by standing in the presence of a living legend, the only Marine to ever corner the Pirate King (important note: *Garp had no Devil Fruit to help him with that*.) Garp was also able to do this to a full Phoenix Marco (which the Admirals failed to do in a 1 v 1 fight):


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## Sayonara (Nov 25, 2013)

OGs are still monsters but no doubt seen better days while Mihawk is at the peak of his game. 

I would not confidently give Sengoku a win even in his prime, so definitely don't seem him taking it now.  Mihawk high diff

Rayleigh back in his pirate days would have made this a tight call, bu nowt hes not only aged but has been largely inactive . Mihawk high diff

Suspect Garp would outright won in his prime days, lost strength with age but remained fairly active and has strong hype and portrayal. Mihawk/Garp extreme diff


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## Shanks (Nov 26, 2013)

Dracule Mihawk takes all 3 with high ~ diff.


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## Mike S (Nov 26, 2013)

I highly doubt these guys who are past their prime, can defeat _The Worlds Greatest Swordsman_ who is in his prime.


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## Gilgamesh (Nov 26, 2013)

Once again Mihawk fans show why they are the worst fanbase in all of creation


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Once again, you show why you're the 2nd worst poster in all of creation.


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## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Nov 26, 2013)

Mihawk beats only Rayleigh...


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

Once again Mihawk fans show why they are the worst fanbase in all of creation


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Once again, why you show you're the 3rd worst poster in all of creation.


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

his 4th place is open u guys. Anybody up for it 

edit: i am curious as why i am not no 1 .Who is he ? what have i done wrong ?  But, at least i am at top 3. :33


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)




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## Unclear Justice (Nov 26, 2013)

I have a pretty good idea who is #1...

OT: Mihawk wins all matches high diff.


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

Unclear Justice said:


> I have a pretty good idea who is #1...
> 
> OT: Mihawk wins all matches high diff.



Spiro ?


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

So I take it that some Mihawk fans believe he's on the highest level/possibly stronger than anyone in the Marines?

And pretty much every Mihawk fan believes he's stronger than anyone in the Marines except the Admirals?


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> So I take it that some Mihawk fans believe he's on the highest level/possibly stronger than anyone in the Marines?
> 
> And pretty much every Mihawk fan believes he's stronger than anyone in the Marines except the Admirals?



dont question Mihawks strength unless u wanna be the no # 4


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> So I take it that some Mihawk fans believe he's on the highest level/possibly stronger than anyone in the Marines?
> 
> And pretty much every Mihawk fan believes he's stronger than anyone in the Marines except the Admirals?



 Garp and Sengoku are getting older and older. I never said Mihawk > Garp by default, I said it's a toss up but the chances of Mihawk winning are more likely than him losing due to him being in his prime.  And what do you mean by "except the admirals". Are you saying VAs stand a chance against Mihawk?


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## Dunno (Nov 26, 2013)

He is on the highest level and possibly stronger than anyone in the Marines. I don't think anyone sensible would disagree.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

So a man possibly stronger than anyone in the Marines was training Luffy's first mate for two years?


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

I'm not saying Mihawk is indeed stronger than every single Marine individually. But other than Akainu and Aokiji, I don't see him losing to any other Marine.

And what do you mean by training Luffy's first mate for two years. Who do you think trained Luffy for two years? non other than the Dark King himself, Roger's first mate. A person who would without a doubt be one of the current Yonkou if he actually bothered and did not quit being a pirate once Roger got executed.


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## Dunno (Nov 26, 2013)

Yup

Do you really think Zoro's last boss would be weaker than a couple of random marine dudes? You could make a case for Akainu since he'll probably fight Luffy quite late in the manga, but the other guys unfortunately don't stand much of a chance.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> And what do you mean by training Luffy's first mate for two years. Who do you think trained Luffy for two years? non other than the Dark King himself, Roger's first mate. A person who would without a doubt be one of the current Yonkou if he actually bothered and did not quit being a pirate once Roger got executed.


It's because Rayleigh quit being a pirate that he was in such a position to willingly focus on Luffy's growth, so your hypothetical about him being a Yonkou holds little merit.

Secondly, Rayleigh is not stronger than an Admiral (although like Marco, he can tango with one) and since you're relating Luffy and Zoro being trained by those two, *Mihawk* and *Rayleigh* can and should be comparable with each other, sure.


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> It's because Rayleigh quit being a pirate that he was in such a position to willingly focus on Luffy's growth, so your hypothetical about him being a Yonkou holds little merit.
> 
> Secondly, Rayleigh is not stronger than an Admiral (although like Marco, he can tango with one) and since you're relating Luffy and Zoro being trained by those two, *Mihawk* and *Rayleigh* can and should be comparable with each other, sure.



That's why it's called hypothetical, it's not based on any facts but it's possible. Rayleigh can't beat an admiral in his current condition due to 1- old age. 2- Not being an active for what, 20 years? So your comparison does not work on Mihawk because 1- he's not old. 2- He's an active pirate 3- he's the absolute strongest swordsman.

Instead of comparing two characters that has never met before as far as we know (Rayleigh and Mihawk), we don't you compare Mihawk to Shanks who happened to be his Rival at some point. Who also happened to be Luffy's idol. That much of a comparison I can see, but comparing Rayleigh to Mihawk just to support your point is just plain dumb.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

Why would Oda have somebody possibly stronger than *any* marine train Zoro for two years, if he's really as strong as you or Dunno say?

That kind of logic struggles to make sense.

Mihawk is the WSS. That's just one notable slice of the pie in the vast world of abilities in One Piece.


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2013)

Mihawk beats them.


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## Vengeance (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Why would Oda have somebody possibly stronger than *any* marine train Zoro for two years, if he's really as strong as you or Dunno say?
> 
> That kind of logic struggles to make sense.
> 
> Mihawk is the WSS. That's just one notable slice of the pie in the vast world of abilities in One Piece.



A world where some of the strongest characters are swordsmen, among them a yonkou and a yonkou first mate.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Once again, you show why you're the 2nd best poster in all of creation.





oOLawlietOo said:


> Once again, why you show you're the 3rd best poster in all of creation.


It's like we share the same mind bro. 


Gilgamesh said:


> Once again Mihawk fans show why they are the worst fanbase in all of creation


Not sure if they're *the* worst, but they are one of them.


Lionel Messi said:


> his 4th place is open u guys. Anybody up for it
> 
> edit: i am curious as why i am not no 1 .Who is he ? what have i done wrong ?  But, at least i am at top 3. :33


This is true.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> A world where some of the strongest characters are swordsmen, among them a yonkou and a yonkou first mate.


Again, which would be one of their notable skills.


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## Vengeance (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Again, which would be one of their notable skills.



Same goes for Mihawk. They are still swordsmen and Mihawk's title is "*Strongest* Swordsman", what's so hard to get there


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## Zorofangirl24 (Nov 26, 2013)

Mihawk > Sengoku mid diff
Mihawk > Garp extreme
Mihawk > Reyleigh high


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## Dellinger (Nov 26, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Yup
> 
> Do you really think Zoro's last boss would be weaker than a couple of random marine dudes? You could make a case for Akainu since he'll probably fight Luffy quite late in the manga, but the other guys unfortunately don't stand much of a chance.



Lol,from what we've seen and how Kuzan is portrayed,his role in the series is much more important than Mihawk's.

Mihawk only has is past rivalry with Shanks and Zoro wanting to surpass him.

Kuzan has much more going on for him.


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

Unclear Justice said:


> I have a pretty good idea who is #1...
> 
> OT: Mihawk wins all matches high diff.



Just curious how is Mihawk beating Garp in only high diff and Sengoku & Ray will give same diff as Garp ?


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## warismydestiny (Nov 26, 2013)

> Round 1: Mihawk vs. Rayleigh


portrayal and symbolism wise rayliegh takes this old rayliegh trained luffy while mihawk trained zoro luffy>zoro hence old rayliegh > mihawk


> Round 2: Mihawk vs. Garp


garp obviously takes this he and roger nearly killed each other countless times


> Round 3: Mihawk vs. Sengoku


garp and sengoku are equal so sengoku>mihawk

mihawk loses all three with hard difficulty good thing op didnt make the old timers in there prime because that wouldve been a spite match


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> A world where some of the strongest characters are swordsmen, among them a yonkou and a yonkou first mate.


Didn't Mihawk get held off by Vista, and Garp managed to injure a full Phoenix form Marco, which the Admirals were unable to do?


Kai said:


> Again, which would be one of their notable skills.


No point arguing. Swordsmanship keeps getting viewed as overall skill and power and not as a category. It's ridiculous but that popular view is never going to die.


White Hawk said:


> Lol,from what we've seen and how Kuzan is portrayed,his role in the series is much more important than Mihawk's.
> 
> Mihawk only has is past rivalry with Shanks and Zoro wanting to surpass him.
> 
> Kuzan has much more going on for him.


It's debatable if Mihawk will even fight Zoro at all. I can see someone beating Mihawk before Zoro and become his EoS opponent.


warismydestiny said:


> portrayal and symbolism wise rayliegh takes this old rayliegh trained luffy while mihawk trained zoro luffy>zoro hence old rayliegh > mihawk
> 
> garp obviously takes this he and roger nearly killed each other countless times
> 
> ...


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

Honestly, Mihawk's top tier aura that had been projected by his fans for years got weaker when Oda revealed he was guiding and teaching Zoro over the two years.

If you're teaching the Strawhats to grow in their abilities, well....


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## Dellinger (Nov 26, 2013)

warismydestiny said:


> portrayal and symbolism wise rayliegh takes this old rayliegh trained luffy while mihawk trained zoro luffy>zoro hence old rayliegh > mihawk
> 
> garp obviously takes this he and roger nearly killed each other countless times
> 
> ...



Sengoku is not equal to Garp.

People clearly don't understand Garp's hype and position in the marines.


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## Vengeance (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Honestly, Mihawk's top tier aura that had been projected by his fans for years got weaker when Oda revealed he was guiding and teaching Zoro over the two years.
> 
> If you're teaching the Strawhats to grow in their abilities, well....



How does this make sense if I may ask


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## killfox (Nov 26, 2013)

S How does Mihawk beat Sengoku? Hes strong enough to hold down a pissed garp in base,, his strenght(and likely durability) gets a monstrous boost in buda form and his shockwaves were strong enough to counter blackbeards quakes (who was strong enough to tilt the island and destroy huge structures immediately after getting it) this is also.the same BB that saod he wamted to sink marineford so he wasnt holding.back. Also for a while Sengoku was stalemating BBs entire crew single handidly. This isnt even factoring in haki, which going by his position and portrayal, should be pretty strong.


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## Vengeance (Nov 26, 2013)

@Kai, Teals

Yep, the title Strongest Swordsman obviously doesn't refer to its holder's strength. 
Whitebeard was also just the man with the greatest virility.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 26, 2013)

Lionel Messi said:


> Just curious how is Mihawk beating Garp in only high diff and Sengoku & Ray will give same diff as Garp ?



Well, mid diff and below is out of the question for me and I use the term extreme diff extremely rarely, so they all end up in the high diff section.


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## 2Broken (Nov 26, 2013)

People lose their mind when it comes to Garp.


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## LogiaMaster666 (Nov 26, 2013)

Personally, I feel that Mihawk loses all three.

Garp and Sengoku win mid difficulty
Rayleigh wins high difficulty


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## Ghost (Nov 26, 2013)

LogiaMaster666 said:


> Personally, I feel that Mihawk loses all three.
> 
> Garp and Sengoku win mid difficulty
> Rayleigh wins high difficulty


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Why would Oda have somebody possibly stronger than *any* marine train Zoro for two years, if he's really as strong as you or Dunno say?
> 
> That kind of logic struggles to make sense.
> 
> Mihawk is the WSS. That's just one notable slice of the pie in the vast world of abilities in One Piece.



Because Zoro needed to get stronger? Why would Oda let a legendary like Rayleigh train Luffy. Don't give me that crap Rayleigh is not as strong anymore, he's still a legendary pirate and people shiver whenever they hear his name.

And the way you worded your post, it's like you're saying, WSS? So what. I hope you realize how stupid that is. That's basically the ultimate title Zoro is going for. EOS Zoro with that title will be a monster among monsters, not gonna be anything below admiral level and that's a fact. That title alone should tell you how strong Mihawk is unless you think one piece has 0 top tier swordsmen. If you agree that there should be at least one top tier swordsman in the one piece verse, then let me remind you that Mihawk > that person by default.


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Mihawk is not beating Garp with anything less than extreme difficulty. My man Garp is still a monster even at old age.


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## Etherborn (Nov 26, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Mihawk > Sengoku mid diff
> Mihawk > Garp extreme
> Mihawk > Reyleigh high



Just because we don't have a One Piece sub forum for fan fictions doesn't mean you should post them here.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> @Kai, Teals
> 
> Yep, the title Strongest Swordsman obviously doesn't refer to its holder's strength.
> Whitebeard was also just the man with the greatest virility.


Too bad Whitebeard had the title of the Strongest *Man in the World* and Mihawk has the title of World's Greatest *Swordsman*. Also, refer to this example: Mihawk likely has better skill with a sword than Shanks, does that mean he beats Shanks in an all out fight? No. Once again, none of the Admirals attacks got through Marco's regen whereas Garp did and managed to fend off the Blackbeard Crew (alongside Sengoku) when their captain had stolen Whitebeard's DF, while Mihawk got held off by Vista earlier.


Transcendent Samurai said:


> Just because we don't have a One Piece sub forum for fan fictions doesn't mean you should post them here.


We should get that section started. It would be a relief for us all.


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## Gibbs (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Curious to see how powerful this BD truly sees Mihawk.
> 
> Mihawk faces the OG's one at a time. 3 separate battles.
> 
> ...




Answers in *Bold Red*


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> Garp is not beating Mihawk with anything less than high difficulty. My man Garp is still a monster even at old age.


Got it spot on once again. Their feats don't lie.


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## Mihawk (Nov 26, 2013)

Hawk Eye Mihawk clears.

Mihawk downplayers love to use conjecture and an overdose on how they personally think the story's gonna go. 



> portrayal and symbolism wise rayliegh takes this *old rayliegh trained luffy while mihawk trained zoro luffy>zoro hence old rayliegh > mihawk*



That is a nonsensical perspective, to base on the difference of class and strength, based on who trained who. 

Ivankov was Sanji's indirect coach of sorts, while Robin very likely met Dragon. Does that make the gap between Ivankov and Rayleigh/Mihawk as small as the gaps of power within the M3? Does that make Robin stronger than the M3 by reverse analogy if Dragon is stronger than Rayleigh or Mihawk? 

There are so many flaws to using that logic




> garp obviously takes this he and roger nearly killed each other countless times



Which was over 24 years ago. Garp grew older. Same applies to Rayleigh & Sengoku.



> garp and sengoku are equal so sengoku>mihawk



^See  above





> Didn't Mihawk get held off by Vista


The same way Kizaru got held off by Marco. 
The same way that Vista got held off by a Vice Admiral.





> and Garp managed to injure a full Phoenix form Marco, which the Admirals were unable to do?



So Garp>all the Admirals simply based on that one confrontation? 





> No point arguing. Swordsmanship keeps getting viewed as overall skill and power and not as a category. It's ridiculous but that popular view is never going to die.



What do you mean by category?

So these instances below are simply categorical, and not a showcase of skill and power?











> It's debatable if Mihawk will even fight Zoro at all. I can see someone beating Mihawk before Zoro and become his EoS opponent.



Such redundant reasoning. Oda spent over a decade to build up the rivalry between Zoro & Mihawk, and to build up to their ultimate duel. In comparison, no one has ever been foreshadowed or can naturally be correlated to being potential usurpers to the WSS title.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> The same way Kizaru got held off by Marco.


Who was forced to hold back, alongside the other Admirals, due to the power of his DF. Also, you do know Kizaru is the Troll Admiral, even when he noted Marco could regenerate from attacks, he kept up the same tactic of spamming lasers. Not really the act of someone taking his opponent seriously. What excuse does Mihawk have for being held off by Vista?


Doflαmingo said:


> The same way that Vista got held off by a Vice Admiral.


Then if Vista, who managed to hold his ground against Mihawk, got held off by a Vice Admiral, that must mean Mihawk must not be near Admiral level either.


Doflαmingo said:


> So Garp>all the Admirals simply based on that one confrontation?


Well how was Garp, who has no DF, only brute strength and Haki, able to get an injury past Marco's regen which the Admirals with their own hax DFs failed to do?


Doflαmingo said:


> What do you mean by category?


Mihawk is the best Swordsman, which is a category, not overall skill and power. While he is strong in other areas, swordplay being his forte, he may be weaker in other areas, such as Haki. Despite being strong enough to cut an iceberg in half with a casual swing, Mihawk failed to stomp Vista (whom Mihawk noted only a fool wouldn't know Vista's name), whereas Marco, Vista's superior, managed to tank the Admirals' attacks with his regen but was injured by Garp's punch.


Doflαmingo said:


> Such redundant reasoning. Oda spent over a decade to build up the rivalry between Zoro & Mihawk, and to build up to their ultimate duel. In comparison, no one has ever been foreshadowed or can naturally be correlated to being potential usurpers to the WSS title.


Ever heard of plot twist?


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

This dude 
He's all yours Luke. I'm out of here.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 26, 2013)

oOLawlietOo said:


> He's all yours Luke. I'm out of here.



Hm? You quit? Well, ok.


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## Lawliet (Nov 26, 2013)

Oh you're one of those kids?


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## Shinthia (Nov 26, 2013)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Hm? You quit? Well, ok.



I think u got the 4th place. Congratulation . I am just above u tho


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## Mihawk (Nov 26, 2013)

> Who was forced to hold back, alongside the other Admirals, due to the power of his DF. Also, you do know Kizaru is the Troll Admiral, even when he noted Marco could regenerate from attacks, he kept up the same tactic of spamming lasers. Not really the act of someone taking his opponent seriously. What excuse does Mihawk have for being held off by Vista?



And what makes you think Mihawk was not holding back against Vista?Your logic is that Kizaru held back because he simply spammed lasers. Your right, he didn't spam those mangrove sized kicks or his larger AoE attacks against Marco. But guess who didn't spam his AoE against Vista? Mihawk. 

 He could spam glacier slicers, yet he resorted to parrying against Vista, in the same way that Kizaru could spam mangrove sized kicks casually, yet resorted to piercing lasers. Let's face it. None of the top tiers including the Admirals, Mihawk & Marco, have gone all out in the war. 

  Vista hasn't even be shown to be able to replicate the destructive power of Mihawk's slashses, let alone casually. Then he looked at Luffy and was pondering his potential, while still parrying Vista. 




> Then if Vista, who managed to hold his ground against Mihawk, got held off by a Vice Admiral, that must mean Mihawk must not be near Admiral level either.



Except Vista is not near Mihawk's level either. 
Assuming that they are on the same level is your choice of downplaying. 




> Well how was Garp, who has no DF, only brute strength and Haki, able to get an injury past Marco's regen which the Admirals failed to do?



Garp came out of nowhere and caught him off guard. or should I say that Marco opened himself to attacks while trying to get to Ace as quick as possible. Even Sengoku did not expect Garp to act. 

As for how he injured Marco, for a brawler like Garp who doesn't spam or use AoE, he probably needs to concentrate a large amount of haki and a good portion of his strength into the focal point of his fists, to do more damage. We saw how his fight with DCJ was. To end that fight shortly, Garp concentrated his power into his fist, before forcing his way through DCJ's head. 

 And he actually only fazed and slightly bruised Marco, yet Marco got back up without the slightest immediate problem. 

To simply draw from one selective scene from a war full of blindsidings, distractions, one hit clashes, off panelled or interrupted fights, too much transitioning, and to use it as the conclusion for why Garp is > Admirals, is grasping at straws. 

Jozu managed to hurt Aokiji when he was off guard.
Marco could  not hurt Aokiji when he was off guard.  

Are you going to draw the conclusion that Jozu is a stronger offensive fighter than Marco, from those two incidents?




> Mihawk is the best Swordsman, which is a category, not overall skill and power. While he is strong in other areas, swordplay being his forte, he may be weaker in other areas, such as Haki.



He is the "strongest" swordsman. Not the World's Best Swordsman, World's Greatest Swordsman, but the "World's Strongest Swordsman".

Being the top of his craft, extremely proficient haki would have to be a basic complement for the WSS who can perform mountain level destructive feats, based on raw strength alone. In a fictional verse where proficient Haki is a most basic fundamental that even fodder like the Amazons, Pekoms, Tashigi and the New World Pirates possess, the idea that someone of Mihawk's strength and placement not being an absolute master of haki needs to be purged. Not to mention, he trained Zoro to develop his haki during the timeskip. Zoro is someone with comparable growth and potential to Luffy, and his haki has become great after the timeskip.





> Despite being strong enough to cut an iceberg in half with a casual swing, Mihawk failed to stomp Vista



Mihawk can't stomp Vista. The Admirals can't stomp him either. 

I already covered the Mihawk/Vista part. 
Vista hasn't shown the power Mihawk has, looking at Mihawk's iceberg and high grade opening slash in the beginning of the war. 

Not to mention Mihawk is the World's Strongest Swordsman and the legend which the secondary protagonist  of the story aims to surpass. 

Vista has no such hype.



> (Mihawk noted only a fool wouldn't know Vista's name),



Well do you think that Vista isn't famous in his own right? Being a veteran pirate on the WSM's crew for over two decades since the Golden Age of Pirates, and being the 5th Division Commander of the Whitebeard Pirates, a Yonko crew. More importantly, do you think that being someone as devoted to swordsmanship as the WSS, Mihawk wouldn't have heard the name of the strongest swordsman of the Whitebeard Pirates, at least once? Mihawk also keeps up with newspapers, so during his career, it is not unlikely that he at least saw Vista's name pop a couple times on the papers. Strong Pirates with high bounty appear on the papers reporting incidents, and a Yonko Commander may be very famous. That's just the way the world of OP is. Big name Marines & Pirates in general are larger than life figures. So Yes, if Mihawk is the WSS, yet he never even heard of the name belonging to the top swordsman of the WSM's crew, then Mihawk would indeed, be a fool. 

Also, that comment tells us nothing about the outcome of the fight. All it really tells us is Vista's fame, and that Vista is a fighter good enough that Mihawk cannot simply brush him off or put him down immediately. That quote doesn't tell us anything about how Vista stands in relation to Mihawk, nor does it hint at all, that Vista would push Mihawk into a hard situation. 




> whereas Marco, Vista's superior, managed to tank the Admirals' attacks with his regen but was injured by Garp's punch.



He tanked their attacks, while Vista parried to stall Mihawk. 
Not to mention, Mihawk is also Vista's senior. 




> Ever heard of plot twist?



Ever heard of assumption & conjecture? That's what you are doing right now. 
It is your assumption that the writer would even choose to go with  this fanmade plot twist, even when there is nothing pointing to it. There is no basis for it, no water to stand on.


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## warismydestiny (Nov 26, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> @Kai, Teals
> 
> Yep, the title Strongest Swordsman obviously doesn't refer to its holder's strength.
> Whitebeard was also just the man with the greatest virility.


 if whitebeard picked up a sword would that him automatically weaker than mihawk obviously not right so mihawks title clearly refers to his skill in swordsmanship just like how in many languages the word strong is used as a testament of skill for example in urdu/hindi we say" he is a very strong hockey player" we are not talking about physical strength 



Doflαmingo said:


> That is a nonsensical perspective, to base on the difference of class and strength, based on who trained who.
> 
> There are so many flaws to using that logic


Nope its clear symbolism direct from oda himself and if your fanboyism is blinding you from seeing that than its too bad for you.

The "flaws" are invented by you ivankov and dragon didnt direct train sanji and robin the way rayliegh and mihawk directly trained luffy and zorro also nobody who has used the childhish mihawk>any character seen holding a sword has no right to talk about nonsensical logic


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## Mihawk (Nov 26, 2013)

> Nope its clear symbolism direct from oda himself and if your fanboyism is blinding you from seeing that than its too bad for you.



lol "clear symbolism direct from oda himself". How do you know? You an assistant or editor? 





> The "flaws" are invented by you ivankov and dragon didnt direct train sanji and robin the way rayliegh and mihawk directly trained luffy and zorro also nobody who has used the childhish mihawk>any character seen holding a sword has no right to talk about nonsensical logic



Again, why would that be "direct symbolism". Where is the evidence? Why would Oda promote such an idea when Mihawk & Rayleigh are not even related in any way within the story? 

So you think Sanji & Robin got no help in becoming stronger even though they did, and were in the company of Iva/Dragon? Robin wants to learn about history, but also said she wanted to become strong for Luffy, while she agreed to letting the Revos take her to their leader. 

The simple truth is this: None of the SHs' teachers became their teachers over the timeskip to emphasise who's stronger and who is not based on who they trained or helped out. They became their teachers because they all had something unique to add to said SH crew member's individual skill or specialty.  


But the truth is all of this is pretty redundant and pointless anyways, because of Mihawk's title.

While Mihawk's title can't be used as the reasoning for why he might be stronger than someone like Fujitora or Law(as they are not pure swordsmen), Rayleigh has no other fighting style or devil fruit, being a swordsman.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 26, 2013)

warismydestiny said:


> *if whitebeard picked up a sword would that him automatically weaker than mihawk obviously not right so mihawks title clearly refers to his skill in swordsmanship *just like how in many languages the word strong is used as a testament of skill for example in urdu/hindi we say" he is a very strong hockey player" we are not talking about physical strength
> 
> ...



The WSS-argument is not what you imply here.

It?s not: "The WSS wins against anyone wielding a sword"
It?s: "The WSS doesn?t lose to anyone in a swordfight"

I hope you see the difference.


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## Kid (Nov 26, 2013)

Garp eats his sword


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## Slenderman (Nov 26, 2013)

TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Too bad Whitebeard had the title of the Strongest *Man in the World* and Mihawk has the title of World's Greatest *Swordsman*. Also, refer to this example:* Mihawk likely has better skill with a sword than Shanks, does that mean he beats Shanks in an all out fight? No. *Once again, none of the Admirals attacks got through Marco's regen whereas Garp did and managed to fend off the Blackbeard Crew (alongside Sengoku) when their captain had stolen Whitebeard's DF, while Mihawk got held off by Vista earlier.
> 
> We should get that section started. It would be a relief for us all.



This is the problem. Going by what we've seen Shanks is a swordsman. I doubt him and Mihawk had brawls with fists. In all encounters of him in a clash or fight he's used a sword. I'm not saying that he can't use his fists but rather that his sword is his forte. Mihawk has the strength to throw a building but he doesn't do stuff like Burgess.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> While Mihawk's title can't be used as the reasoning for why he might be stronger than someone like Fujitora or Law(as they are not pure swordsmen), Rayleigh has no other fighting style or devil fruit, being a swordsman.


This is why the fanbase gets such a bad wrap.

Rayleigh clearly stated "It's been a while since I used a sword." 

Talk about redundancy. Luffy did not grow to the level he did with Rayleigh being a pure swordsman. Rayleigh most certainly has other more prominent areas he can offer to teach which reflects his years of experience in battle.

Completely separate from what Mihawk offers in battle.


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## Slenderman (Nov 26, 2013)

warismydestiny said:


> if whitebeard picked up a sword would that him automatically weaker than mihawk obviously not right so mihawks title clearly refers to his skill in swordsmanship just like how in many languages the word strong is used as a testament of skill for example in urdu/hindi we say" he is a very strong hockey player" we are not talking about physical strength
> 
> 
> Nope its clear symbolism direct from oda himself and if your fanboyism is blinding you from seeing that than its too bad for you.
> ...



If WB used a sword Mihawk would win because swordmanship is Mihawk's forte while it's not WB's. Luffy has a lot of physical strength yet he sucks at swordsmanship. Honestly Luke is whopping everybody. You lift the spirits of this fellow Mihawk fan. Urdu and Hindi is not Japanese so that makes zero sense. He is a very strong basketball player in the sense that he's good at it not  him being physically strong.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> This is why the fanbase gets such a bad wrap.
> 
> Rayleigh clearly stated "It's been a while since I used a sword."
> 
> ...



Your a Special kind of retard it seems.

This post is a load of shit.


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## Freechoice (Nov 26, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> The same way Kizaru got held off by Marco.
> The same way that Vista got held off by a Vice Admiral.



To be fair; that can be used both for and against the argument 

Marco is close to Kizaru in power.

Vista is close to a VA in power.

Mihawk is close to Vista in power.

Therefore, Mihawk is VA level? :ignoramus

Deductive reasoning at it's finest if I do say so myself.


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## Kai (Nov 26, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Your a Special kind of retard it seems.
> 
> This post is a load of shit.


Your jimmies got rustled that easily and I'm the retard? 

You don't have shit to say. :ignoramus


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Nov 26, 2013)

^my jimmies don't get rustled by retards.


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## Teach (Nov 26, 2013)

Mihawk beats all of them. Age is a factor many like to ignore.

OGs are overrated.


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## Etherborn (Nov 26, 2013)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Your a Special kind of retard it seems.



You're*

The non-retard needs to work on his spelling. 



Teach said:


> Mihawk beats all of them. Age is a factor many like to ignore.
> 
> OGs are overrated.



It's also an argument people throw around without any proper evidence. Whitebeard and Rayleigh were the only members the old generation that were confirmed to have grown significantly weaker. Garp simply laughed and commented that aging sucks as he displayed the greatest pure strength feat in the manga to date. Just because people want him to have grown weaker than Mihawk doesn't mean he did. 

Mihawk is overrated. 

But if you want to prove me wrong, you can, I don't know, bring up some feats from Mihawk that are better than fighting on par with Vista.


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## Teach (Nov 26, 2013)

Transcendent Samurai said:


> It's also an argument people throw around without any proper evidence. Whitebeard and Rayleigh were the only members the old generation that were confirmed to have grown significantly weaker. Garp simply laughed and commented that aging sucks as he displayed the greatest pure strength feat in the manga to date. Just because people want him to have grown weaker than Mihawk doesn't mean he did.
> 
> Mihawk is overrated.
> 
> But if you want to prove me wrong, you can, I don't know, bring up some feats from Mihawk that are better than fighting on par with Vista.


Garp commented that he got weaker. Him laughing about it doesn't make it an invalid statement.

Mihawk is underrated in this forum. He's a completely boring and bland character but he's also one of the strongest of this era. People are arguing with emotion here.

If we're going by feats, Mihawk has the best feats out of the three. What puts Mihawk above all of them, is that he's relevant to this age. Old dudes are all past their prime, feats of the old time do not matter when we know they got weaker.


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## Freechoice (Nov 26, 2013)

Teach said:


> Garp commented that he got weaker. Him laughing about it doesn't make it an invalid statement.
> 
> Mihawk is underrated in this forum. He's a completely boring and bland character but he's also one of the strongest of this era. People are arguing with emotion here.
> 
> If we're going by feats,* Mihawk has the best feats out of the three. *What puts Mihawk above all of them, is that he's relevant to this age. Old dudes are all past their prime, feats of the old time do not matter when we know they got weaker.





Beats cutting a little bit of ice.


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## trance (Nov 26, 2013)

Just wanna say that Mihawk can still legitimately retain his title even though Shanks could be stronger (no, I'm not claiming this as fact but it's a possibility). This is my theory...

Mihawk and Shanks used to be rivals and equals before Shanks lost his arm. That is true. Shanks lost his arm and Mihawk ceased their rivalry. That is also true. Sometime after this, Mihawk became the WGS while Shanks became a Yonko. Again, true. Now, to the point of my theory. Oda said Shanks didn't lose any strength when he lost his arm. However, what if instead of losing strength, he simply lost *skill*? I mean, I'm no swordsman but I would think to effectively utilize the one sword style in combat, it would be best to have two hands. Mihawk uses two hands, even Zoro uses two hands for some of his Ittoryu moves. 

When Shanks lost his arm, instead of losing raw strength, he lost skill and hit a plateau which allowed Mihawk to surpass him in swordsmanship skill but Shanks was still overall stronger, possibly because he became a Haki master, etc, etc. That way, Shanks can be stronger and Mihawk can still be the swordsman above swordsman without it contradicting.


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## Teach (Nov 26, 2013)

What said:


> Beats cutting a little bit of ice.



It doesn't since it's so slow SH's managed to escape. Mihawk beats Garp in attack power, based on feats.


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## Gilgamesh (Nov 27, 2013)

> Mihawk is underrated in this forum.



HAHAHAHAHA


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## Vengeance (Nov 27, 2013)

Nothing is changing here, every hater tries to find any arguments to support his Mihawk = not top level notion, some really nice examples in this thread 




TheTeaIsGood2 said:


> Too bad Whitebeard had the title of the Strongest *Man in the World* and Mihawk has the title of World's Greatest *Swordsman*.



Mihawk's title: Sekai Saikyō no Kenshi (Strongest Swordsman in the World)
Whitebeard's title: Sekai Saikyō no Otoko (Strongest Man in the World)



His title puts him above other swordsmen the same way Whitebeard's title put him above other men.

Too lazy to answer the rest of your post, others have done it already anyway...



Kai said:


> This is why the fanbase gets such a bad wrap.
> 
> Rayleigh clearly stated "It's been a while since I used a sword."
> 
> ...




Yep, all swordsmen except Mihawk have great skills in other areas or are not even swordsmen despite using a sword as weapon of choice and having no df or whatever. Mihawk's haki sucks, Rayleigh kicks him to death etc...


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## Mihawk (Nov 27, 2013)

> Rayleigh clearly stated "It's been a while since I used a sword."



He said "it's been a while since I used *my* sword", don't misrepresent things. 

He hasn't been active in over 2 decades since he washed up after being lost at sea. He has been gambling, womanizing, and drinking all this time. The fact that he said "it's been a while since I used my sword", indicates that it has been a long time since he has fought or has been involved in combat at all, as he has remained largely inactive, trying to keep a low profile and live out the rest of his days in peace. 



> Talk about redundancy. Luffy did not grow to the level he did with Rayleigh being a pure swordsman. *Rayleigh most certainly has other more prominent areas he can offer to teach which reflects his years of experience in battle.*
> 
> Completely separate from what Mihawk offers in battle.



Classic Mihawk downplaying, by grasping at straws, and using nothing but assumptions and conjecture to invalidate his title.

What is truly redundant, is to emptily assume that Rayleigh has some other hidden factor or area of combat he has not shown us yet.

No, Rayleigh offered to train Luffy, because the training was cantered in haki. There was no other hidden area or factor he offered as far as we know. Luffy said that he beat the fundamentals and the basics of haki into him, and we know Luffy trained by himself for the remaining 6 months of the 2 years. 

Until there is on panel proof in a flashback of Rayleigh showing some totally different fighting style, your conjecture of him not being a fighter who excels primarily at swordsmanship, is baseless. 

He fought an Admiral using his sword, while trying to save the SHs and implying that if only he was younger, he could have fended off Kizaru and saved the SHs from Kuma. Why would he restrict himself to purely using a sword if it is not his primary asset of combat, in such a situation?


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> He said "it's been a while since I used *my* sword", don't misrepresent things.
> 
> He hasn't been active in over 2 decades since he washed up after being lost at sea. He has been gambling, womanizing, and drinking all this time. The fact that he said "it's been a while since I used my sword", indicates that it has been a long time since he has fought or has been involved in combat at all, as he has remained largely inactive, trying to keep a low profile and live out the rest of his days in peace.
> 
> ...



Maybe his quote sort of indicates that he isn't as strong as his former self. Nevertheless, you still cannot ignore the fact that he is still a worthy opponent for even TS Luffy and Law, or even more, Doflamingo. Fighting against an admiral at his state prior to the TS shows how he hasn't drained been drained of fighting, I doubt his former self would one shot an admiral like kizaru, it's highly likely, but his swordmanship would have been much better than the one he showcased against kizaru, not like he could rival mihawk's swordmanship.

Rayleigh is a sworman and excels at the art of fighting, with, well, a sword.. does that mean that he cannot fight sans his sword? Nope. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence despite not having enough proof that he only excels with a sword. We've seen him effortlessly push a gigantic luffy who's said to be stronger than luffy and in the norms of the animals which rayleigh mentioned to be stronger than Luffy himself (Note, the latter was not weak) and other Supernova's if you add them to the equation. This implies that, at his age, sans his sword, he was at least 10x stronger than the supernovas. Take it for what it is, and don't deny the ramnifications it'll have on your arguments. Rayleigh is a top tier, nonetheless. You cannot repudiate a fact but it topples you. Rayleigh can easily defeat every individual supernova's (PTS) whilst both of his eyes are closed even without his sword.

The only reason I can think of as to why he used his sword and not his fists or legs is most likely due to kizaru summoning his sword prior to rayleigh sheathing his weapon. Thus, forcing him to use his sword, if not, his coated haki  hands wouldn't have been as efficient as his sword.


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## Freechoice (Nov 27, 2013)

Wtf                               .


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## Mihawk (Nov 27, 2013)

Mirage said:


> Maybe his quote sort of indicates that he isn't as strong as his former self. Nevertheless, you still cannot ignore the fact that he is still a worthy opponent for even TS Luffy and Law, or even more, Doflamingo. Fighting against an admiral at his state prior to the TS shows how he hasn't drained been drained of fighting, I doubt his former self would one shot an admiral like kizaru, it's highly likely, but his swordmanship would have been much better than the one he showcased against kizaru, not like he could rival mihawk's swordmanship.
> 
> Rayleigh is a sworman and excels at the art of fighting, with, well, a sword.. does that mean that he cannot fight sans his sword? Nope. Absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence despite not having enough proof that he only excels with a sword. We've seen him effortlessly push a gigantic luffy who's said to be stronger than luffy and in the norms of the animals which rayleigh mentioned to be stronger than Luffy himself (Note, the latter was not weak) and other Supernova's if you add them to the equation. This implies that, at his age, sans his sword, he was at least 10x stronger than the supernovas. Take it for what it is, and don't deny the ramnifications it'll have on your arguments. Rayleigh is a top tier, nonetheless. You cannot repudiate a fact but it topples you. Rayleigh can easily defeat every individual supernova's (PTS) whilst both of his eyes are closed even without his sword.
> 
> The only reason I can think of as to why he used his sword and not his fists or legs is most likely due to kizaru summoning his sword prior to rayleigh sheathing his weapon. Thus, forcing him to use his sword, if not, his coated haki  hands wouldn't have been as efficient as his sword.



A worthy opponent for TS Law, Luffy, & Doflamingo? Rayleigh would murk them without being pushed hard. We were never discussing how strong Rayleigh was in his prime. I was talking about the current Rayleigh. The old and past his prime Rayleigh.

I'm not sure exactly what your trying to argue here, because some of what your saying doesn't make alot of sense. 

I never once denied that he is top tier. I never said he wasn't. That is not the issue here. 

As for the absence of evidence business, when debating and comparing characters, the presence of evidence matters when making a claim of whether they are exempted from a title or not. I don't have an issue with people assuming that Rayleigh might have more up his sleeve, but using something  intangible like that in a debate as the basis for why he is stronger than Mihawk is utter bs. 

So he effortlessly beat a monstrous elephant who was stronger than Pre TS Luffy...how is that any point in this argument? It was used to simply illustrate his haki. 

And defeating Supernovas isn't really that spectacular of a feat for top tiers either. 

What is truly spectacular, was his performance against Kizaru, and his hype as the former Right Hand of the Pirate King in his prime and youth.

Truth is, I don't even think you are really disagreeing with me, and I really don't have an idea of what you are trying to argue. A bit of clarification will be much appreciated.


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## Freechoice (Nov 27, 2013)

Mirage said:


> The only reason I can think of as to why he used his sword and not his fists or legs* is most likely due to kizaru summoning his sword prior to rayleigh sheathing his weapon. *Thus, forcing him to use his sword, if not, his coated haki  hands wouldn't have been as efficient as his sword.





Rayleigh unsheathed his first.


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

What said:


> Wtf                               .



Seriously, every thread I post, you're there. Understand that I want NOTHING to do with you and that I don't want to become your friend. The way you've indulged yourself by which you tend to make fun of me when I don't intentionally make you laugh is getting annoying, and your zealous attempt to trolling me is baffling, to say the least. Stop writing one liners just to condescend my arguments. If you want to try to disprove me, go right ahead and show it by writing a coherent argument which at least shows how you're trying to refute my points rather than troll me. This is a warning. Next time, I go straight to the Admin and mods. You know how that ended up, getting your rep sealed


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## Freechoice (Nov 27, 2013)




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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> A worthy opponent for TS Law, Luffy, & Doflamingo? Rayleigh would murk them without being pushed hard. We were never discussing how strong Rayleigh was in his prime. I was talking about the current Rayleigh. The old and past his prime Rayleigh.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what your trying to argue here, because some of what your saying doesn't make alot of sense.
> 
> ...




This is a red hearing argument. It was not my intentions to spark a debate regarding who will win among the said contenders; Rayleigh, Ts luffy and Law. Yes, i may have undermined rayleigh in your view, but do understand that it was not THE point I was trying to make.

No, you're not understanding anything. The way you said my argument had no correlation to the premise of your post was either you not understanding what you've written yourself, or an intentional move to not have to deal with my argument. The point of my argument was to try to refute your point about how we cannot make claim that rayleigh is another fighter all around without any sort of evidence in which shows that he has another fighting style besides his conventional resorts to fighting; Swordmanship. WE'VE seen him effortlessly blow away a gigantic elephant who was said to be stronger than the supernovas themselves. This shows that rayleigh is an adapt fighter when it comes to fighting with his hand. Not to mention the level of his haki, is a testament to his fighting prowess. Point is, that other guy was right to say rayleigh can fight without his sword, too.

His title, first mate, shows volume to his fighting capabilities, and although we have few evidence of his strength, we know from the brief encounter he had against an admiral, that he is indeed worthy of meriting the title, the dark king.

Regardless if he can defeat them or not, this is irrelevant here. This argument of yours detracts from the initial subject of which you and the other user were discussing. I am here to prove that rayleigh can fight with his hands, which I have done so.


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

What said:


> Rayleigh unsheathed his first.



Guess I was wrong. My mistake, man. Still, it doesn't invalidate my argument which I was trying to make.


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

Doflαmingo said:


> A worthy opponent for TS Law, Luffy, & Doflamingo? Rayleigh would murk them without being pushed hard. We were never discussing how strong Rayleigh was in his prime. I was talking about the current Rayleigh. The old and past his prime Rayleigh.
> 
> I'm not sure exactly what your trying to argue here, because some of what your saying doesn't make alot of sense.
> 
> ...



HOLY FUCK! I meant "Gigantic Elephant" Not luffy... lack of sleep here... fack


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## Vengeance (Nov 27, 2013)

@Mirage 
Mind to give a short version of what you are trying to prove, is it that Rayleigh can fight without his sword?


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## LyricalMessiah (Nov 27, 2013)

Vengeance said:


> @Mirage
> Mind to give a short version of what you are trying to prove, is it that Rayleigh can fight without his sword?



To prove isn't a good way to put it, to disprove is, but from a logical point of view, it becomes a false dichotomy... yadayada, point I am trying to make is that Rayleigh isn't limited to his sword but can use other means necessary to fight; Hands ect...


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## Vengeance (Nov 27, 2013)

Mirage said:


> To prove isn't a good way to put it, to disprove is, but from a logical point of view, it becomes a false dichotomy... yadayada, point I am trying to make is that Rayleigh isn't limited to his sword but can use other means necessary to fight; Hands ect...



Yeah ok, but what are getting at? He is a swordsman and uses a sword is serious situations.


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## Unclear Justice (Nov 27, 2013)

Everyone can punch or kick if he wants to. This can?t be the basis to render all comparisons of characters meaningless. What matters is how they choose to fight when they are serious.

Rayleigh chose to engage an Admiral (somebody who is a threat to him and who was there only to kill the people Rayleigh wanted to protect) in a swordfight.


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## Meigo (Nov 27, 2013)

Round 1: Mihawk wins
Round 2: Mihawk wins
Round 3: Yet again Mihawk wins

Really depends on how their age has affected them but since they're not in their prime i assume Mihawk can take them. Hard to say between Mihawk and Garp though.


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## Dellinger (Nov 27, 2013)

While I agree that Mihawk takes this gauntlet,he's by far the most wanked character in here.


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## Etherborn (Nov 27, 2013)

Teach said:


> If we're going by feats, Mihawk has the best feats out of the three. What puts Mihawk above all of them, is that he's relevant to this age. Old dudes are all past their prime, feats of the old time do not matter when we know they got weaker.



Are you honestly telling me that just because Mihawk is younger that automatically makes him stronger? You don't even know how much weaker Garp got. You're just assuming that he grew weaker than Mihawk because you think Mihawk is underrated on this forum. Well, I really don't care if he's underrated, because you're overrating him right now. How does he have better feats than Garp? His best feats are cutting an iceberg and fighting on par with a high tier. Garp has fought  to the death with the pirate king and was still able to own Marco on screen despite his old age.  

Just because someone is passed their prime doesn't mean any top tier that is still young can beat them. Whitebeard suffered the most from old age because of his illness. That was proven. Rayleigh lost a lot of stamina and was rusty because he retired and pretty much never fought again. Garp was not sick and did not retire until the timeskip. There is no evidence to say that he got *significantly* weaker. Even if he said he got weaker, we don't know by how much. What we do know was that he did not show any signs that his old age was slowing him down. Assuming that Mihawk is stronger than him when he has low feats for a top tier just because Garp got older is ridiculous.


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## Dunno (Nov 27, 2013)

White Hawk said:


> While I agree that Mihawk takes this gauntlet,he's by far the most wanked character in here.



What? 
So, you think Mihawk would win, a lot of other people thinks Garp would win and you still think Mihawk is the most wanked character here? That doesn't make sense.


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## killfox (Nov 27, 2013)

killfox said:


> S How does Mihawk beat Sengoku? Hes strong enough to hold down a pissed garp in base,, his strenght(and likely durability) gets a monstrous boost in buda form and his shockwaves were strong enough to counter blackbeards quakes (who was strong enough to tilt the island and destroy huge structures immediately after getting it) this is also.the same BB that saod he wamted to sink marineford so he wasnt holding.back. Also for a while Sengoku was stalemating BBs entire crew single handidly. This isnt even factoring in haki, which going by his position and portrayal, should be pretty strong.


Requoting myself for everyone who believes Mihawk would beat Sengoku.

And once again Sengokus shockwave stalemated BBs quake thay was tilting marineford and causing massive destruction. What does Mihawk have comparable to that? Because his iceberg feat (his best feat) isnt gonna cut it as its not even comparable.


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## Dellinger (Nov 27, 2013)

Dunno said:


> What?
> So, you think Mihawk would win, a lot of other people thinks Garp would win and you still think Mihawk is the most wanked character here? That doesn't make sense.



I'm talking about the whole section,not only this thread.


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## killfox (Nov 27, 2013)

I would also argue the slash mihawk used against whitebeard was stronger than the one he used against Luffy because he was using it agaonst the WSM  and Jozu stopped it.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Nov 27, 2013)

killfox said:


> I would also argue the slash mihawk used against whitebeard was stronger than the one he used against Luffy because he was using it agaonst the WSM  and Jozu stopped it.


My thoughts exactly. I don't think Mihawk would be stupid enough to hold back against the Strongest Man in the World.


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## hokageyonkou (Nov 27, 2013)

mihawk vs. rayleigh - mihakw wins high diff

mihawk vs. garp - could go either way

mihawk vs. sengoku - could go either way.


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## Slenderman (Nov 27, 2013)

Stαrkiller said:


> Just wanna say that Mihawk can still legitimately retain his title even though Shanks could be stronger (no, I'm not claiming this as fact but it's a possibility). This is my theory...
> 
> Mihawk and Shanks used to be rivals and equals before Shanks lost his arm. That is true. Shanks lost his arm and Mihawk ceased their rivalry. That is also true. Sometime after this, Mihawk became the WGS while Shanks became a Yonko. Again, true. Now, to the point of my theory. Oda said Shanks didn't lose any strength when he lost his arm. However, what if instead of losing strength, he simply lost *skill*? I mean, I'm no swordsman but I would think to effectively utilize the one sword style in combat, it would be best to have two hands. Mihawk uses two hands, even Zoro uses two hands for some of his Ittoryu moves.
> 
> When Shanks lost his arm, instead of losing raw strength, he lost skill and hit a plateau which allowed Mihawk to surpass him in swordsmanship skill but Shanks was still overall stronger, possibly because he became a Haki master, etc, etc. That way, Shanks can be stronger and Mihawk can still be the swordsman above swordsman without it contradicting.



Haki is a supplement to swordsmanship. If Mihawk has the greater skill with a sword how does Shank's be stronger since haki is the supplement to swordsmanship not a separate thing.


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