# Jack Rakan vs Obi-Wan Kenobi



## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

Special match: Can Rakan tag Obi-Wan in speed? Not an actual combat match per say.  Jack Rakan just has to be able to touch Obi-Wan once.


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## willyvereb (Dec 18, 2011)

What are Obi wan's speed feats?
The only thing I know that Jedi Masters can increase their speeds to be comparable to a blaster bolt.
That's bellow Rakan's level.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

Official film novelization has Obi-Wan moving his lightsaber so fast (casually at that) that he literally surrounds himself in a shimmering blue shield deflecting every shot from semi-automatic to fully automatic blaster rifles from over, literally", ten thousand droids firing on him omnidirectionally at the same time.

I can post the actual excerpt from the Revenge of the Sith novel if you want.

Also reflexes with the Force are comparable to a guy who processes and reacts to things at relativistic speeds (Grievous) thanks to the General's electronically slaved cybernetic synapses.


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## willyvereb (Dec 18, 2011)

Actually, I want you to post that feat. It sounds pretty impressive and maybe worth a calc. (or if proper calc is impossible, a pseudo-calc attempt)

Anyways, Rakan's speed (based on his tournament fght) is roughly one third of negi's lightning speed.
So roughly 50km/s. (Mach 150+ or so)
Maybe higher given he had no trouble
 fighting the the top tiers and dodged an attack from Eva which the lightning-fast Averruncus units cannot.

But for now, let's call 50km/s the benchmark. If Obi wan passess that, he wins.

Let's see that feat!


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Dec 18, 2011)

Impressive feat for good ol Kenobi.


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## willyvereb (Dec 18, 2011)

Yeah, it's pretty impressive. I already have a way to calc it, somehow.
I need just two pieces of information:
First, how fast are the blaster bolts, approximately.
Second, what kind of blaster gun the droids used? I'm mostly interested in the rate of fire.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

ugg boots Metropolis Daily News

RoF for Clone and B1 Battle-Droid blasters.

Blaster bolts are probably between above the speed of sound considering ballistic weaponry ie "slugthrowers" in Star Wars have been out-dated since early into the Old Republic, tens of thousands of years. And blasters are superior in but one respect: not getting deflected by a wizard ninja with an energy sword back at the shooter.

So yeah, low hypersonic to double digit (maximum I've seen is around mach 10-12) for their speed.


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## willyvereb (Dec 18, 2011)

Alright, I'll just assume the low end because the calc is going to get ridiculous anyways. Droid blasters are also presumably shit compared to other weapons of the same kind.
On the other hand I just going to assume that all the 10,000 droids were firing at Obi-wan and were on their mark.
No aimdodge, cover hit or spread fire are included.
RPM = 600
V = Mach 5 ~ 1700 m/s
Time interval between shots = 0.1 seconds (60s/600 RPM) / 10,000 = 0.00001 seconds
Range = 50 m (assumption for average distance of the entire droid army, 10,000 soldiers to take up a considerable space so the furthest droid must be many hundred meters away)
Motion = 1 m (again general assumption of the lightsaber's movement. Sometimes less while other times it' several times more)

Swinging speed base (against a single droid) = 1m x 1700 m/s / 50m = 34.02 = mach 0.1

Nothing too impressive, huh? Just wait!

Obi one's deflection speed = Mach 0.1 /0.00001 = *Mach 1000*


My basic idea was that the description of Obi one's lightsaber forming a deflector shield was a visual illusion. Obviously battle droids have no way to perceive the motion of Obi-wan's ligthsaber. So all they saw was just a huge blur of light. Obi-wan isn't stupid to just randomly swing his weapon. He individually deflected each blaster bolt. So we came down to this absurd figure.
Please do note that it only applies for Obi-Wan Kenobi's attack speed/hand movements.
Also, more importantly it's just a rather lazy calc of mine with way too many assumptions. Anyways, if he was really deflecting the blaster fire from so many battle droids then his speed should be roughly on this level.

Pretty impressive, like it was expected.


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## Blade (Dec 18, 2011)

Assumption or not, this number, even it is likely lower, it is way higher than Rakan's anyways.


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## EpicBroFist (Dec 18, 2011)

Fang said:


> Official film novelization has Obi-Wan moving his lightsaber so fast (casually at that) that he literally surrounds himself in a shimmering blue shield deflecting every shot from semi-automatic to fully automatic blaster rifles from over, literally", ten thousand droids firing on him omnidirectionally at the same time.



Wouldn't this just be reaction/combat speed?


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

Impressive.

I don't know if it was just an analogy but like you saw in the passage, Obi-Wan was spinning as well with the lightsaber all around his body. I can assure you that a lightsaber is only one meter in length.

Also did you see the link for droid/B1 blaster rifle? Something around 660 rounds per minute.

Edit: he's still moving his body in a limited area and swinging, so its like Willyvereb said, reaction/striking speed.

Funnily enough, Obi-Wan and Anakin are nowhere near Sidious/Palpatine and Windu, and Anakin can keep up with Obi. And to add to that, Sidious and Windu's fight were described as moving so fast to Anakin that they were "looping in and out of existence, lightsabers leaving dozens of afterimages while Anakin struggles to keep up with the fight".


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Dec 18, 2011)

Mach 1000 Obi-Wan Kenobi, holy shit.


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## Big Bοss (Dec 18, 2011)

Well shit, I guess this puts people like Windu, Sidious and Yoda in a whole different level.


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## Blade (Dec 18, 2011)

So characters like Luke or Abeloth are really on another level.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQNMO3HmLsQ[/YOUTUBE]

Might give an idea on the distance of the droids. Earlier passage also has "droids surrounding Obi-Wan like a dome" analogy.


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## Fang (Dec 18, 2011)

Revenge of the Sith novelization/pdf said:
			
		

> ---[sic]A last Jedi Master battled alone, blade-to-blade, against a living shadow.
> 
> Sinking into Vaapad, Mace Windu fought for his life. More than his life: each whirl of blade and whipcrack of lightning was a strike in defense of democracy, of justice and peace, of the rights of ordinary beings to live their own lives in their own ways. He was fighting for the Republic that he loved. Vaapad, the seventh form of lightsaber combat, takes its name from a notoriously dangerous predator native to the moons of Sarapin: a vaapad attacks its prey with whipping strikes of its blindingly fast tentacles. Most have at least seven. It is not uncommon for them to have as many as twelve; the largest ever killed had twenty-three. With a vaapad, one never knew how many tentacles it had until it was dead: they move too fast to count. Almost too fast to see. So did Mace's blade. Vaapad is as aggressive and powerful as its namesake, but its power comes at great risk: immersion in Vaapad opens the gates that restrain one's inner darkness. To use Vaapad, a Jedi must allow himself to enjoy the fight; he must give himself over to the thrill of battle. The rush of winning. Vaapad is a path that leads through the penumbra of the dark side. Mace Windu created this style, and he was its only living master. This was Vaapad's ultimate test.
> 
> ...



Windu vs Sidious fight.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2011)

It's like Itachi vs. Galactus, but you guys are actually serious.


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## Riley (Dec 18, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> It's like Itachi vs. Galactus, but you guys are actually serious.



*hates SW threads and thread maker*

Obi-Wan however is such a memetic badass. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't have Jaga from Thundercats and his massive badassness. 

I take it you're a Thundercat fan?


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## Nikushimi (Dec 18, 2011)

Riley said:


> *hates SW threads and thread maker*
> 
> Obi-Wan however is such a memetic badass. If it wasn't for him we wouldn't have Jaga from Thundercats and his massive badassness.
> 
> I take it you're a Thundercat fan?



Thundercats was before my time, man.

Also, I'm a little put off by all the...fur.

But that's another topic for another day.


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## Riley (Dec 18, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Thundercats was before my time, man.
> 
> Also, I'm a little put off by all the...fur.
> 
> But that's another topic for another day.



lol 

Don't tell me you're another one of those people that has been brainwashed by the term "furries" coined by Yu-gi-oh the abridged series. It's a cartoon(or fanmade parody in this case) you shouldn't always take those things seriously.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 19, 2011)

YGOTAS didn't invent the idea of furries....


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Dec 19, 2011)

Riley said:


> lol
> 
> Don't tell me you're another one of those people that has been brainwashed by the term "furries" coined by Yu-gi-oh the abridged series. It's a cartoon(or fanmade parody in this case) you shouldn't always take those things seriously.



Um no the term furries has been around longer then YGOTAS.
Like EM said.

But also there are real furries I have the horror of knowing three obsessive ones in real life.


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## hammer (Dec 19, 2011)

lul mach 1000,. wheres thor for this


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## Riley (Dec 19, 2011)

Endless Mike said:


> YGOTAS didn't invent the idea of furries....



Who did?

There's a great deal crazier furry fuck shows or reasons for why you're a furry.

Here they are:

-Nearly all the shows(anime) involve furry fuzzball animals
-One of the jobs you worked at you dressed as an animal
-You spend a majority of your time around a big fuzzball(cat or dog)

Also in all honesty the Thundercats 2011 is too damn fuzzy in comparison to the 80's show where they're more human-like and etc. Also Tygra looks like Tony the fucking tiger. Instead, of being grrreaat he's a douche.

@Hammer

I don't know what this Thor is but it sounds disappointing.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

@TWF: I have a new idea for calcing Obi-Wan's feat. Supposedly it would give us a more accurate and acceptable number.
I'll be posting it tonight.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> Alright, I'll just assume the low end because the calc is going to get ridiculous anyways. Droid blasters are also presumably shit compared to other weapons of the same kind.
> On the other hand I just going to assume that all the 10,000 droids were firing at Obi-wan and were on their mark.
> No aimdodge, cover hit or spread fire are included.
> RPM = 600
> ...



Just to ask: is this *with* precog, or is it just pure, raw reaction speed? Really impressive, especially if it's the latter.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

He's a Jedi, so precog is always included. Although my calc also applied to his swinging/attack speed. He had to handle 100,000 blaster bolts in every second and from all directions. That's...quite honestly...a pretty insane feat.


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## Waking Dreamer (Dec 19, 2011)

Is the ten thousand left to go a hyperbole?

You know as in you're considering about a tedious task you have to do (like picking up all the leaves in the yard during Autumn) and you say to yourself, _*only another [insert extremely high number] to go*..._

Rather than meticulously counting how much there actually is left you just say a really high number off the top of your head.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 19, 2011)

just wondering, Obi-wan doesn't have to deflect all the bolts with his lightsaber

I mean Jedi can deflect blaster bolts rather easily with the Force
and it should be less bothersome to combine deflecting blaster bolts with both saber and the force to lessen the physical load on him. No matter how much mental exertion it takes to deflect blasters with the force, i'm quite willing to bet it's gonna be less than teh physical exertion of moving arms at mach 1000 =/


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## Blade (Dec 19, 2011)

Or you are just frustrated that he has such attack speed level.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Dec 19, 2011)

pikachuwei said:


> just wondering, Obi-wan doesn't have to deflect all the bolts with his lightsaber
> 
> I mean Jedi can deflect blaster bolts rather easily with the Force
> and it should be less bothersome to combine deflecting blaster bolts with both saber and the force to lessen the physical load on him. No matter how much mental exertion it takes to deflect blasters with the force, i'm quite willing to bet it's gonna be less than teh physical exertion of moving arms at mach 1000 =/



And he still did the feat with physical movement.


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## Waking Dreamer (Dec 19, 2011)

Well I think the major assumption is that all 10 000 droids were targeting Obi Wan dead on. 

I mean if your the droid at the back of the queue among thousands...can you even see Obi Wan?

But its still an impressive feat by the description without the numbers.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

that calc gives mach 10,000.

It depends on how you conceptualize it & maybe I'm missing something, but having him generate a deflector shield instead of reacting to each individual blast actually gives a roughly similar figure.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 19, 2011)

Blade said:


> Or you are just frustrated that he has such attack speed level.



believing that Obi-wan is able to physically move at mach 1000 is pretty out there for me, I admit.

It would kinda make land transport obsolete for him (speeders, bikes, that lizard he rode. jedi should have no problem running up vertical surfaces as Windu proved running up the Seismic Tank)

Even if we assume that its just his arms swinging his lightsaber at that speed, it doesn't make sense for his arms to be so much faster than his legs.
And plus, mach 1000 punches =/

And as Waking Dreamer stated, this is assuming all 10,000 droids aim at him and fire simultaneously. Unless Obi-wan was directly above all the droids so they can all shoot at him this is unlikely to happen. If they were all on level ground, only the droids within the first 10 or so ranks would actually be able to get a clear shot at him, the rest would be blocked by the droids in front.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Of course, that was a high end calc of sorts. I assumed that the 10,000 droids are firing at Obi-Wan in automatic fire at the same time while each blaster bolt are perfectly on their mark.
That's why I wish to make a different calc and see the results.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Waking Dreamer said:


> Is the ten thousand left to go a hyperbole?
> 
> You know as in you're considering about a tedious task you have to do (like picking up all the leaves in the yard during Autumn) and you say to yourself, _*only another [insert extremely high number] to go*..._
> 
> Rather than meticulously counting how much there actually is left you just say a really high number off the top of your head.



No, its not hyperbole. It was Grievous' droid army with him on Utapu. How the hell would he take a planet with just a few hundred droids and bodyguards? And as for the bullshit about only the first few ranks being able to fire, the droids are built modularlly from factory foundries to overlap each other's firing arcs between or over one another.

Also the narration has droids from all angels shooting at him, such as the description "like a dome surrounding Obi-Wan" or something of that sort earlier on in the passage I posted. Hell even some were armed and aimed at him before being disengaged from their mount racks in the ceiling and walls.

Its pretty consistent with Windu's feat on Dantooine from CW cartoon series, and other EU stuff like Jedi running toward laser based weapons and smacking them around.


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## Waking Dreamer (Dec 19, 2011)

Fang said:


> And as for the bullshit about only the first few ranks being able to fire, the droids are built modularlly from factory foundries to overlap each other's firing arcs between or over one another.



Fine about the numbers then. But as if every droid had pinpoint accuracy even if they could see Obi Wan. Stray bolts pass regular soldiers all the time, and Im sure many were off the mark trailing a master-level Force guided Jedi.

Hardly bullshit - and a reasonable variable to consider dont you think? You dont need _10 000_ bolts to create a dome like description as in the passage.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, as for the inconsistency between Obi-Wan's deflection speed and actual movement speed. I say he's using the Force to enhance his arm movements in short bursts.

You can often see that characters can do impressive timing feats at short range yet their travel and movement speed are far lower.
It's the same with Obi-Wan.
Also, like Fang said it's somehow consistent with the fact that any Jedi worth their salt can deflect lasers from rather close range.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

This was debunked years ago in Star Wars lore. Droid starfighters are superior to human pilots thanks to electronic reflexes and near if not at lightspeed reactions thanks to their processors. Human pilots can still beat them because their more creative and not limited to singular approaches and generally unconventional.

Hence why droids are generally referred to as "stupid clankers" in SW. 

Same with battle droids, stray bolts pass because droids have to choose to target the most dangerous threat to itself unless overriden by the central droid ship commander or something like that. Battle droids are dull witted by competent marksmen (even displaying cowardly streaks until the new generations during the TCW were given individuality to overcome the central TF ship being destroyed and powered down), same with B2/Super battle droids. Then we've all seen the Destroyer Droids on screen, forcing the Jedi into stalemates and so forth unless they drop like tons of rubble on it.

Also if by "regular" soldiers you mean Clone Troopers who are the absolute apex of normal humans in terms of conditioning, strength, and trained since birth to fight...then your being somewhat silly. Their template was a bounty hunter/mercenary who killed Force-Users with his bare hands and fought Obi-Wan to a standstill in unarmed combat.


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## Nevermind (Dec 19, 2011)

pikachuwei said:


> believing that Obi-wan is able to physically move at mach 1000 is pretty out there for me, I admit.
> 
> It would kinda make land transport obsolete for him (speeders, bikes, that lizard he rode. jedi should have no problem running up vertical surfaces as Windu proved running up the Seismic Tank)



You've missed the fact that this only pertains to his reaction speed/reflexes, not his actual movement speed.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Revenge of the Sith novelization/pdf said:
			
		

> "General Grievous," he said, "you're under arrest."
> 
> The bio-droid general stalked toward him, passing through his screen of
> bodyguards without the slightest hint of reluctance. "Kenobi. Don't tell me, let me guess: this is the part where you give me the chance to surrender."
> ...



Earlier passage before the fight.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

There comes a point when their exact number doesn't matter. The real issue is what the blaster speed is. I think mach 5 was mentioned. If he can swipe the sword around himself in an approximate sphere before ONE blaster bolt can move, say, one centimeter, and if he can repeat that motion then it doesn't matter how many droids there are; he'll block them all.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Blaster bolts have been shown to go up to mach 12 (multiple kilometers in split seconds such as Genosis and Kashykk in AoTC and RoTS). Willyvereb used a medium of mach 8 between mach 12 and mach 5/6.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Actually, I used a low end and claimed that Droid blaster rifles are shit thus they're only Mach 5.

With Mach 8 blaster bolts the feat would be soemthing like Mach 16,000.

Anyways, I'm doing a different calc later which uses a different set of assumptions for Obi-Wan's feat.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Did you see the passage with droids being suspended in the air shooting at him? And others still stuck on mounts and pods on the roof and walls surrounding him like a dome?


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah, Obi-Wan being surrounded 3-dimensionally from all directions does allow a plenty of space thus lowering the distance figure as well.
That's why I1m going to do a different calc.
It won't require the range of the blaster shots were fired from. Neither the RoF of the blasters.
Just wait.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

Look, I'm figuring 8 1-meter swipes of his lightsaber to generate the deflector shield effect around his whole body. & I figure the blaster bolts can be allowed to move 1 cm closer in the time it takes him to complete those swipes. So, he moves 800 x mach 5-> 4000.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

^Actually, I'm about to use a similar calc but with less extreme assumptions.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

I think Obi-Wan would have to be constantly moving his arms if he made a sphere of "blue energy" like a shield around his body more then simply 8 or so times. But that's just my two cents.


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## EpicBroFist (Dec 19, 2011)

For the thread, whats Obi-wan's movement speed? because Jack Rackan could still tag him if he doesn't have a good enough movement speed.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Hypersonic+
As fast as the blaster bolts at best. Mach 5-12
That is with Force-enhanced speed though which is IIRC only a temporally boost.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

yeah, that's just one iteration. He repeats that for as long as the blasters are firing. One iteration lasts 1/170,000th of a second. This is all just a rough estimate, but it does seem like it would be easier for him to do this than to react to all the blaster shots--and that's what the text says he did.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Jedi as a rule don't use Force Speed for blocking things. The one time its seen in the films is simply to run away from the Destroyer Droids since all the blasts reflected/deflected back where blocked by the droid's shields.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

Those MagnaGuards had near-light speed reactions that Obi-Wan couldn't contend with, yet they were crushed by a slow-moving object & couldn't keep up with Obi-Wan when he... jumped?? Movement speed & combat speed are very separate beasts in SW.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Crushed by slow moving objects? He was cutting down starship sized cargo containers in the passage, and telekinetically pushing them with the aid of gravity on them. The droids can't detect the Force, not too mention Obi-Wan could keep track of them and they were described as leaping like primates through a jungle using their agility to keep up with him.

As for reaction speed, Anakin can out-react droid-starfighters with similar processing speeds and Grievous himself has them same with the slaved computer chips amping his own reflexes thanks to his cyborg brain and body. And as for Obi-Wan saying he would be destroyed fighting them, he was comparing himself to the Force.

Here's the passage on that scene:



			
				RoTS pdf said:
			
		

> Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hyper-sophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.
> 
> He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.* In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away.* He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. *The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.
> 
> ...



"With the finality of a meteor strike".

Sounds pretty damn fast and hard considering the entire passage of events of the combat were mere seconds.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

no, it says nothing about telekinesis adding to the drop speed. These MagnaGuards CLEARLY do not have supersonic movement speed, unless they have another feat somewhere. Point is, those guys have roughly comparable reaction times to Jedis, but their movement speed sucks. So, in this universe, there is no correlation between reaction time & movement speed. So, you cannot infer movement speed for Obi-Wan from deflection feats. I'm sure he has tons of independent movement speed feats and I'm sure he's much faster than a MagnaGuard, but where is Willy's hypersonic+ movement speed for Obi-Wan coming from? Was he actually keeping pace with a blaster bolt?


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Their movement speed does not suck considering the only quantifer is their reactions/processing speed being relativistic to lightspeed and the exchange of the fight was in a literal second or two before Obi-Wan faces the droid army. I know more about Star Wars then you. As for another feat, keeping up with Grievous, pressuring Jedi who have LEGITIMATELY bullet-timed or better with their movement/combat speeds and so forth. 

Regardless or not about telekinesis, its a starship sized cargo pod, likely hundreds of meters in width and length, and probably weighing a couple thousands of metric tons. Windu bullet-timing again an entire droid army with his movement speed using the Force, Luke Skywalker producing dozens of afterimages with his lightsaber and physically disappearing from Jacen and Jaina Solo's sight despite the latter being in a Jedi battle-meditation with one another and having a Force bond with their uncle, and so forth. Also, again Windu producing dozens of strikes that Anakin couldn't follow and Sidious flickering "in and out of existence like a shadow" with his own speed. Luke's speed feat in Shadows of the Empire with Guri and his perception of time slowing down, a shit tier Jedi capable of deflecting and moving faster then shrapnel hurled at hypersonic speeds from an explosion with telekeinsis.

MangaDroids are designed to match with Jedi. The only way it could be construed Obi-Wan stood no chance was because it was a group of them along with Grievous where previously he showed no problem exchanging and overpowering a single one in direct combat. They have blocked and deflected blaster bolts from Clone Troopers with RPM's similiar if not superior to the droid's own and kept up with hypersonic bullet-timers like Shaak Ti or Ki-Adi Mundi.

Edit: I can not "infer" movement speed for Obi-Wan? Stop acting like the entirety of a Force-User's reactions are totally dominated by their precognition. They have to be able to move fast enough so their precognition/prescience isn't worthless even if they can know what's coming in the first place to react to it.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm not speaking as a Star Wars expert. I'm just looking at the feats you give me. How high up do you suppose that ship was? 10 meters? Probably a lot more, right? What's the gravity like on that planet? If it's similar to Earth's & if, like you said, the ship was a few hundred meters in length, then they would have easily gotten away if they could move at 1,700 meters per second. We're getting figures for Obi-Wan of 1,360,000 meters per second, hundreds of times faster than a blaster bolt. You know that's not his running speed.

& I'm not talking at all about precog. Someone asked about movement speed. I'm just saying that movement & combat speed are completely distinct here.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm well aware that movement and combat speed are vastly different from one another. In the OBD, the latter has been specifically changed to really reactions or striking/attack movements with his limbs like Willyvereb noted in his calc earlier in this very same thread. As for the planet Utapau, it has standard Earth like gravity. Its atmosphere supports oxygen and compatabile for humans, its diameter is 12,900 kilometers.

Anyway they could not have easily gotten out of the way because they had no idea that Obi-Wan was going to drop a ship like container on them. They are not psychics, unlike Jedi/Force-Users are. As for the record, I do remember in CrossCurrent of ancient Jedi running more then 100 meters per second when they want to. Its likely the MangaDroids have the reflexes and combat reactions to strike as fast as Obi-Wan, just not move as fast.


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## cacomixl (Dec 19, 2011)

So it looks like Obi-Wan has much better reaction time feats than Rakan. Since Obi-Wan has a lightsaber, running speed for either doesn't really matter unless Rakan is of sufficient durability to more or less ignore the lightsaber hits when going in for a tag.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Rakan can still annihilate Obi-Wan with a mountain-buster if it comes down to physical battle.
But yeah, his reaction speed seems to be inferior to the Jedi.
Not to mention that if we allow powerscaling Obi-Wan has a considerable chance to mind-rape Rakan.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Telekinetic shields can protect Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan used the Force to pry open Grievous armor that can withstand multi-kiloton (stated) bursts from starfighters which are easily town+ level.

It can be potentially higher. Also the match is Rakan trying to tag Obi-Wan.


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## willyvereb (Dec 19, 2011)

Multi-kiloton level blasts are just high end multi block+ to town level.
According to the lateest calc Rakan's jooke attack was at least low end mountain level by conservative scaling.
I say telekinetic shields won't be enough.

Perhaps Obi-Wan with his superior reaction speed may attempt to disassemble Rakan with the Force. Like mace Windu did with the battle droids. Aside from mind rape that would be Obi-Wan's only chance. Rakan has a feat almost comparable to Tao's so he can probably overpower a TK hold.

Anyways, since when did this turn into a battle? I thought this is a respect thread about Obi-Wan being awesome.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Yeah but there's also a high degree of implication that its approaching megaton levels. I should mention in Labyrinth of Evil that Anakin indirectly shook a 200+ meter tall skyscraper (not even counting its underground basement levels) designed to test experimental weapons indirectly just by getting angry in the Force. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZXcWV0S7fo[/YOUTUBE]

Look at them explosions. 

So yeah, Obi-Wan is no slouch when it comes to telekinetic shields or attacks. Capable of generating barriers and what not. And I agree its a good respect thread for Obi.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 19, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> You've missed the fact that this only pertains to his reaction speed/reflexes, not his actual movement speed.



The reaction speed is inferring Obi-wan can move his arms at mach 1000

which is a pretty insane thought.

Googling handpunch speed gives about a max of 60 kmph for a human punch which is about 17 m/s
And a peak human speed is slightly more than 10 m/s as world class athletes can run 100 m in under 10 seconds
so a arm speed:movement speed ratio of 1.7:1

Assuming that Obi-wan can force amp his arms to mach 1000 or 330,000 m/s
it's not unreasonable that if he force amps his legs the ratio would be the same, making him able to run at somewhere about 195,000 m/s for short bursts.

Which just totally blows my mind.

unless I've got my concepts all wrong, which is pretty likely, but yeah

As for the Magna Guards, I think they just didn't notice the giant metal block falling from the sky on them. There was no indication in the text Obi-Wan used the Force to accelerate the block on them.

And the mention of Ancient jedi running at speeds of 100 m/s is pretty believable, and should be a good base level at least for Magna Guard speed. I mean thats only abotu 360 km/s and we have cars today faster than that, it's not any stretch of the imagination to assume super-futuristic droids can move much faster than that.


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## Fang (Dec 19, 2011)

Because he actually did move his arms. Enough that his entire body is covered in a sphere by his lightsaber means he is consistently moving unless you want to argue Obi-Wan has unaturally rubbery arms or joints that lets him disconnect his shoulders and arms from their natural position. And other Force-Users have shown similar regardless. 

Jacen Solo and several other Jedi Knights smacking around turbolasers and starship grade blaster cannons which are all observed to be lightspeed like ping pong balls comes to mind.

Anyway I'm interested in seeing some more calcs on this.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 19, 2011)

I've always thought that Jedi deflecting feats come with a hefty wallop of precog so they move their blades into position before the lasers fire

and then it would be kinda puzzling how Boba Fett, a peak human was able to best a guy who's arms can move at mach 1000. I mean one punch and Fett would have exploded.


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2011)

No, this bullshit was debunked years ago. Jax Pavan was consciously deflecting multiple blaster bolts no problem but occasionally failing when turning "off" his precognition power. When I-Five surprised attacked him with an actual finger laser weapon, he subconsciously reacted to it before realizing he blocked the attack.

Their reflexes have to in some from relate to their precognition and prescience abilities. And Jango Fett had a character-shield so that's why, not too mention the feat is performed by a much more powerful Obi-Wan 3 years later in RoTS, not during AotC.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 20, 2011)

Was he reacting to the laser after it fired? oO

What is the difference in power between Obi-wan in RoTS and AotC? I know that by RoTS he became a Council member, but in actual increase in power how much of a difference was there


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## Fang (Dec 20, 2011)

Of course he reacted during its firing not before.

With Jango Fett what the hell does it matter for? Obi-Wan's mission was to capture him and bring him back to Coruscant for questioning and interrogation for the assassination plot on Amidala. 

Actual power increase? They gained more experience, better mastery of the Force, and constant combat and training increased their abilities. Why do you think Anakin commented he was more powerful then the last time they fought Count Dooku.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 21, 2011)

um so I'm right in saying that Jedi deflection feats come with lots of precog?

And i would think it would be fairly easy for Obi-wan to knock out and capture Jango if his hand speed is that fast.


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## willyvereb (Dec 21, 2011)

^ The thing is. Authors are often barely aware of the implication of the feats they have written for their characters.

If you ask Oda whether he's aware that at certain times Luffy was moving at hypersonic speeds he would just respond like "Say what?"

One of the general rules of the OBD that we mostly ignore the author's intent because the mere fact we're putting their creations against other fictional characters is already a violation against that.


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## pikachuwei (Dec 21, 2011)

so Obi-wan losing to Jango in a fist fight would be considered an outlier?


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## willyvereb (Dec 21, 2011)

PIS, to be precise.
Or perhaps Jango Fett is THAT awesome.
I remember something like Bobo Fett stomping Jaina Solo in a lightsaber duel. She was somewhat inexperienced and such but still...
The Mandalorians cannot be underestimated.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 21, 2011)

Fang said:


> This was debunked years ago in Star Wars lore. Droid starfighters are superior to human pilots thanks to electronic reflexes and near if not at lightspeed reactions thanks to their processors. Human pilots can still beat them because their more creative and not limited to singular approaches and generally unconventional.



IIRC the droid starfighters created by the World Devastators were slaughtering the New Republic fighters



willyvereb said:


> I remember something like Bobo Fett stomping Jaina Solo in a lightsaber duel. She was somewhat inexperienced and such but still...
> The Mandalorians cannot be underestimated.



That sounds like Traviss bullshit to me.


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2011)

Traviss wrote that Jaina needed to go to Boba Fett to gain experience and combat skill to beat Darth Caedus, who is her twin brother, Jacen Solo. This is the same Jaina Solo who was not only a flight leader in Rogue Squadron during the Vong War but later commanded her own squadrons and got to the rank of Colonel in the New Republic/Galactic Alliance's military to soloing hundreds of Vong Warriors herself in personal combat...that she was "inexperienced" and needed to see Boba Fett.

Now there is an uncle of her's, his name is Luke Skywalker. But for some reason Boba is more qualified against fighting against Sith Lords and Dark Jedi then him.


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## Endless Mike (Dec 21, 2011)

So glad she got fired from writing any more SW novels


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2011)

So I attempted to follow through with Willyevreb's calc but I changed the distance to 15 meters and the blaster fire speed to mach 8 (2722 m/s) and the RPM rate to match that with a Clone Trooper's DC-15 (650 rpm vs 600 rpms).

I forgot how to do the rest, heh. Although I think that would change it from 0.1 to 0.01 on the shots firing rate. Which would probably change the feat to even higher.

I got roughly (more like copy-paste from Willy's calc):

Swinging speed base (against a single droid) = 1m x 2722 m/s - 15m = 181.46 m/s = mach 0.5

Mach 0.5 / 0.00001 = 1,701,450 m/s ~ Mach 5000

Although I'm sure there are errors it still seems that the feat is in excess in general of mach 1000. 

I wonder if Obi-Wan's height/body size is relevant, because if he was and is seriously deflecting all the blasts, then wouldn't he also have to block shots at his legs and knees and bend lower to or raiser higher to the ground at lower and higher aimed shots?

Anyone's thoughts? Still interested in seeing Willyvereb's other calc on this.


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## Emperor Joker (Dec 21, 2011)

Fang said:


> Traviss wrote that Jaina needed to go to Boba Fett to gain experience and combat skill to beat Darth Caedus, who is her twin brother, Jacen Solo. This is the same Jaina Solo who was not only a flight leader in Rogue Squadron during the Vong War but later commanded her own squadrons and got to the rank of Colonel in the New Republic/Galactic Alliance's military to soloing hundreds of Vong Warriors herself in personal combat...that she was "inexperienced" and needed to see Boba Fett.
> 
> Now there is an uncle of her's, his name is Luke Skywalker. But for some reason Boba is more qualified against fighting against Sith Lords and Dark Jedi then him.



Being who she was Traviss conveniently forgot also that everytime Fett encountered a Sith or a dark jedi, he either barely escaped alive (Dark Empire II) or wasn't being taken seriously and the Sith in question (Vader) was holding back

but of course Boba Fett is a far more knowledgable teacher than the grand master of the Jedi order who has gone up against more Sith and actually managed to win fights against them


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## Fang (Dec 21, 2011)

Same Luke Skywalker written by Traviss inexplicably has internal monologues in Mando'a in his head. Yeah, she's a crazy bitch.


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## HumanWine (Dec 22, 2011)

willyvereb said:


> ^ The thing is. Authors are often barely aware of the implication of the feats they have written for their characters.
> 
> If you ask Oda whether he's aware that at certain times Luffy was moving at hypersonic speeds he would just respond like "Say what?"
> 
> One of the general rules of the OBD that we mostly ignore the author's intent because the mere fact we're putting their creations against other fictional characters is already a violation against that.



this is so frustrating


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