# Is Deidara Mid Kage? (Kage Challenge)



## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

I have always wondered where people rank Deidara. Some have him incredibly high  in the Akatsuki while others have him incredibly low. I feel like he should be ranked in the middle. But is he Mid Kage level? Can he stand up to, any of these who are considered mid kage (IMO) and if so how many can he beat?

Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
Restrictions: Koto for Danzo
Knowledge: None
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters

Deidara starts next to C2 Dragon

Kakuzu
Gaara (Not guarding Suna)
Mei Terumi
Sasori
Danzo


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## Empathy (Jun 23, 2015)

Danzo's the only one who's going to for sure beat him with _Kotoamatsukami_ unrestricted. With it restricted (I think you probably just forgot about it), all the matches are debatable and close enough where you'll find varying answers in how many Deidara could defeat (if any). Personally, Sasori and maybe Danzo are the only ones I think would beat Deidara more often than not, but it's still very close. Deidara would have a hard time with Kakuzu and Gaara, but I think he could win the majority of the time, although it'd similarly be very close. Mei wouldn't go down easy, but I think it's the least closest match here, besides Deidara versus unrestricted Danzo. Full knowledge for only Deidara could be enough of an advantage where he could win all the match-ups, because I think they're all close under neutral circumstances, so a slight advantage for only Deidara's could be enough to tip things in his favor. To answer the thread title, yeah, I think Deidara sits comfortably as a solid mid Kage.


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes Koto is restricted. Sorry forgot about that! Yea I think I could agree with you on that. I think Gaara did a great job against him as he was also protecting Suna. So I think Gaara has a chance too but at the sae time Deidara was trying to capture him alive too so it works both ways. I think he is midd kage as well, not sure where he sits in that class but def mid kage.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

The manga has illustrated many times that someone much weaker can defeat someone much stronger with favorable conditions. To me this thread is very simply another expression of that. The conditions are skewed to so greatly favor Deidara that he has a decent chance against characters that are otherwise stronger than him. 

So him being able to win against Kakuzu, Gaara, or Mei here proves nothing to me about his standings next to them. And even despite extremely favorable conditions he still will loose to Sasori and Danzo, almost all the time.

As far as Deidara's placement goes, I'm kind of getting tired of labeling characters in tiers, so I'll just say he is much weaker than Danzo and Sasori. He's closer to Mei, Gaara, and Kakuzu, but ultimately he is weaker than all of them, because his fighting style has it's glaring weakness to Raiton, while theirs do not possess similar extreme weaknesses. Deidara's  intelligence is also inconsistent due to his arrogance, so that's another issue that keeps him bellow these ninja.


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

I changed the knowledge Turrin so maybe it won't be so skewed


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 23, 2015)

No he is not everything depicts him as a low cage character at best


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## Empathy (Jun 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I think Gaara did a great job against him as he was also protecting Suna. So I think Gaara has a chance too but at the sae time Deidara was trying to capture him alive too so it works both ways.



People forget that _C3_ was only used to distract Gaara, not weaken him, so that Deidara could get his sand-infused bombs close enough. The same could've been accomplished if he just dropped _C3_ on top of stationary Gaara and forced him to defend himself, because Deidara has always been a master of misdirection. Gaara was trying to capture Deidara alive too, but he had the entire Sunagakure desert to work with and Deidara came unprepared (which really is his fault).


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes he is Mid-Kage level with his tricks and what not, as for the fights I'd say that he'd lose to Sasori more times then not while he has a 50/50 shot against Danzo though I'd favor Deidara here with no knowledge.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 23, 2015)

Deidara's abilities make him an upper Mid Kage. He can fly, he can dig, his clones can disintegrate you, or they can destroy forests. He nearly killed Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, Neji, and Lee _without arms_. 

He also publicly captured a Kage alive from their own village while the entire village and the Kage himself were helpless. I think he'd beat most on that list no sweat, as would Gaara in the desert.​


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I changed the knowledge Turrin so maybe it won't be so skewed



Well now that it's more fair he looses to all of them.



Empathy said:


> People forget that _C3_ was only used to distract Gaara, not weaken him, so that Deidara could get his sand-infused bombs close enough. The same could've been accomplished if he just dropped _C3_ on top of stationary Gaara and forced him to defend himself, because Deidara has always been a master of misdirection. Gaara was trying to capture Deidara alive too, but he had the entire Sunagakure desert to work with and Deidara came unprepared (which really is his fault).


I like how this assumes Gaara watches Deidara drop a bomb and decides instead of simply flying away or using a bit of sand to stop the bomb's decent, he's going to waste his chakra creating a massive shield to block it. I.E. assumes Gaara is clinically retarded.

Fact of the matter is the location ended up handicapping Gaara more than helping him in that battle. Deidara of course had his own disadvantages as well, but who cares if he's stronger than SPII-Gaara as that Gaara is weaker than War-Arc Gaara, who in-turn needs circumstantial advantages to beat someone like TrollKage. So all that shows is Deidara is stronger than someone much weaker than Trollkage. Which is like whatever.



Strategoob said:


> He also publicly captured a Kage alive from their own village while the entire village and the Kage himself were helpless. [/indent]


Of course they were helpless it's not like just any village can muster up even a single fighter of the quality of Omoi and Ittan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Easily mid kage. He went in Sand Village, and destroyed Gaara in his home turf. And Gaara was an upper low kage.


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## Kanki (Jun 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Deidara's abilities make him an upper Mid Kage. He can fly, he can dig, his clones can disintegrate you, or they can destroy forests. He nearly killed Gai, Kakashi, Naruto, Neji, and Lee _without arms_.
> 
> He also publicly captured a Kage alive from their own village while the* entire village and the Kage himself were helpless*. I think he'd beat most on that list no sweat, as would Gaara in the desert.​



Tbf Gaara essentially sacrificed himself to save the village didn't he? It's been a while since I read that fight.


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

He didn't destroy gaara lmao. Gaara was protecting his entire village and nearly beat him, I believe he would have if he didn't have hundreds of lives to account for.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 23, 2015)

no.

and niether is half your list.


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

How so? None are Low or high kage so I would imagine they are all Mid Kage maybe some on the low end of it but still none are low Kage unless you consider maybe Kakuzu but he is pretty underrated in my eyes


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## Deer Lord (Jun 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> How so? None are Low or high kage so I would imagine they are all Mid Kage maybe some on the low end of it but still none are low Kage unless you consider maybe Kakuzu but he is pretty underrated in my eyes



That's because people are making kage level cheaper than what it actually is.
Sasori, danzo and war-arc gaara are mid-kage, the rest including deidara are not.
thats the way I see it anyhow.


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

Alright I get you are saying, so you would consider Deidara Mei and Kakuzu low kage? I just don't see how a ninja as versatile as Kakuzu could be considered low kage. And with Mei I think she is definitely one of the weaker Kage so I can see how some would view her as low


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## Deer Lord (Jun 23, 2015)

He's a higher up low kage, sure
but he doesn't have the feats to consistantly stack up to the sannin/gokage (sans mei)

For me mei is the bottom of the barrel.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Of course they were helpless it's not like just any village can muster up even a single fighter of the quality of Omoi and Ittan.



An Edo under-performed?!


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> An Edo under-performed?!


PNJ prevented back up from helping properly?!?!?!?!??!?!?!??!?!?!


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## ARGUS (Jun 23, 2015)

With these conditions deidara wins all of them except possibly danzo 
He is mid akatsuki and I rank him below kisame but slightly above kakuzu/sasori

As for the sannin. He beats tsunade for sure. And can beat non zetsu oro 
He loses to jiraiya


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## wooly Eullerex (Jun 23, 2015)

Sasori & Danzo w/o Koto are above the rest of those ''kage'' imo
kakuzu would annoy both of them, but yeah

deidara has a 40/60 ~ 60/40 match ups against the rest
he can  put great pressure kakuzu initially but may run out of clay or get outlasted & have trouble actually hurting him

he can out range mei, but she can out finesse him, especially in terms of ground tactics, forcing him to use his more consuming, telegraphed jutsu

and gaara seems a very even match up, very murky to me


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## Matty (Jun 23, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> With these conditions deidara wins all of them except possibly danzo
> He is mid akatsuki and I rank him below kisame but slightly above kakuzu/sasori
> 
> As for the sannin. He beats tsunade for sure. And can beat non zetsu oro
> He loses to jiraiya



How is he taking out  Oro? Just curious. I can't see how Deidara is above Sasori when he clearly stated he is inferior, reffered to him as master sasori and also has barely any feats compared to him besides taking out Gaara who was focusing on protecting his village from harm rather than focusing completely on Deidara


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## Empathy (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I like how this assumes Gaara watches Deidara drop a bomb and decides instead of simply flying away



Gaara didn't exactly chase Deidara around personally and stayed in the same aerial position for the entire fight. Since when does Gaara rely on evasion instead of attempting to block stuff like he always does? What proof do you have that Gaara could dodge that level of area-of-effect?



> or using a bit of sand to stop the bomb's decent,



Like he did when Deidara dropped a bomb much closer to his sand's source?



> Fact of the matter is the location ended up handicapping Gaara more than helping him in that battle.



Gaara never would have a chance at catching Deidara without it. 



> Deidara of course had his own disadvantages as well, but who cares if he's stronger than SPII-Gaara as that Gaara is weaker than War-Arc Gaara, who in-turn needs circumstantial advantages to beat someone like TrollKage.



Who says Gaara got stronger in the war arc? At best, the Yondaime Kazekage's statement when he thought the initial tidal wave was Shukaku's doing indicates that Gaara managed to regain or remain as strong as he was. Losing a bijuu generally doesn't empower you, but hey, I guess catching up on all that sleep more than makes up for the loss of the Ichibi. Gaara controlled more sand at once against Deidara than he did in the war.



> So all that shows is Deidara is stronger than someone much weaker than Trollkage. Which is like whatever.



How is being weaker than Gengetsu being used detrimentally? Gengetsu tied with Muu, the same guy who was going to kill Onoki and Gaara before Naruto saved them. Gaara and Onoki also had to work together in order to defeat Gengetsu, and they still needed the Rasa's _sakin_ to defeat him. Gengetsu is a high Kage just like Muu, in my opinion. That said, Deidara could beat him (due to match-up, though). Deidara can see through genjutsu and even you argue against it, _C3_ or _C4_ have enough area-of-effect to kill him while hiding. _Joki Boi_ can be evaded in the air—its area-of-effect and potency, which is inferior to even Deidara's _C2_.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Gaara didn't exactly chase Deidara around personally and stayed in the same aerial position for the entire fight.






> Since when does Gaara rely on evasion instead of attempting to block stuff like he always does?






> What proof do you have that Gaara could dodge that level of area-of-effect?


Gaara doesn't need to dodge the AOE, he just needs to chase Deidara down like he did in the manga. Because if he's close to Deidara, Deidara can't detonate C3.



> Like he did when Deidara dropped a bomb much closer to his sand's source?


He wasn't the target of C3, the village was, and as such he had to ensure the villages safety as the Kazekage.



> Gaara never would have a chance at catching Deidara without it.


Gaara can grind this amount of sand extremely quickly even in Part-I:



In the Deidara fight Gaara does not make use of a larger quantity of Sand than this to catch Deidara and rip his arm off.

So i'm going to have to say no.



> Who says Gaara got stronger in the war arc?


All the rookies continued to get stronger over the course of the manga. Gaara displayed new techniques and abilities like sand sensing. So basically common sense.



> At best, the Yondaime Kazekage's statement when he thought the initial tidal wave was Shukaku's doing indicates that Gaara managed to regain or remain as strong as he was. Losing a bijuu generally doesn't empower you, but hey, I guess catching up on all that sleep more than makes up for the loss of the Ichibi.


Gaara controlled more Sand in PI against Kimmimaro at one time than he did for most of the Deidara fight. Literally only twice did he control more sand than that, when he used the initial Sand Tsunami which didn't work against Deidara due to flight and when he protected the village. That's it.

So the Bijuu isn't making any difference. Greater Exp and more techniques/abilities is what's important here and all of that sides with War-Arc Gaara. 



> How is being weaker than Gengetsu being used detrimentally? Gengetsu tied with Muu, the same guy who was going to kill Onoki and Gaara before Naruto saved them. Gaara and Onoki also had to work together in order to defeat Gengetsu, and they still needed the Rasa's sakin to defeat him. ,


There is nothing inherently wrong with being weaker than Gengetsu. There is something wrong with using defeating a inferior version of Gaara, to the one that was weaker than Gengetsu as proof of placing Deidara as high as people claim him to be, because it's not like Gengetsu is as strong as fucking Hashirama or even Minato/Tobirama. 



> Gengetsu is a high Kage just like Muu


I don't know what that means unless you also define who else is High-Kage, because everyone labels "tiers" differently.



> That said, Deidara could beat him *(due to match-up, though)*.


Stopped at the bold, because the bold renders what comes after it a moot point for this discussion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Deidara is faster than Gaara. Without terrain advantage Gaara can't muster that amount of sand, so he cant effectively fight Deidara like he did in the manga if its anywhere outside a desert.

Deidara can always keep his distance, and his tools are more versatile. Gaara might fare better against certain opponents but he is definitely weaker than Deidara.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I have always wondered where people rank Deidara. Some have him incredibly high  in the Akatsuki while others have him incredibly low. I feel like he should be ranked in the middle. But is he Mid Kage level? Can he stand up to, any of these who are considered mid kage (IMO) and if so how many can he beat?
> 
> Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
> Restrictions: Koto for Danzo
> ...



- danzo neg diffs him. at first respawn. not a fair match 

- sasori wins 

- gaara looses. C4 is a bitch

- Mei looses. not worth the debate

- kakuzu could win if gian lands. more likely C4 1 shots all 5 hearts without kakuzu being able to do anything about it


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2015)

Yes, he is mid-Kage. Beating the Kazekage with one bag of clay and forcing someone like Hebi Sasuke to a near-dead tie indicate that.

It's kind of ironic that the people who downplay Itachi are the same people who downplay Deidara. Man I wonder why


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Yes, he is mid-Kage. Beating the Kazekage with one bag of clay and forcing someone like Hebi Sasuke to a near-dead tie indicate that.
> 
> It's kind of ironic that the people who downplay Itachi are the same people who downplay Deidara. Man I wonder why



It's kind of ironic that the people who overrate Itachi are the same people who overrate Deidara. Man I wonder why


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> It's kind of ironic that the people who overrate Itachi are the same people who overrate Deidara. Man I wonder why


Empathy overrates Itachi?

That's a new one.


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## Bonly (Jun 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Yes, he is mid-Kage. Beating the Kazekage with one bag of clay and forcing someone like Hebi Sasuke to a near-dead tie indicate that.
> 
> It's kind of ironic that the people who downplay Itachi are the same people who downplay Deidara. Man I wonder why



I am highly disappointed with this post. I expected to see "Gaara dies in the cross fire" but I don't see it. 0/10 you can do better.


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2015)

Sorry I only comment on relevant characters.

Gaara doesn't fit the definition.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Empathy overrates Itachi?
> 
> That's a new one.


Matty1991 w/ his Itachi avatar underrates Itachi?

That's a new one.


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Matty1991 w/ his Itachi avatar underrates Itachi?
> 
> That's a new one.


Perhaps he just rates Itachi fairly. And he rated Deidara as middle of the pack Akatsuki, I fail to see how that's overrating. It's reasonable to suggest at least.

Point is people like you and Eliyua23 are known Itachi haters and you also rate Deidara as extremely weak. It was just a trend I noticed. Ironically Munboy, SSM12 do the same but you know alright cause guys are only following manga canon.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Point is people like you and Eliyua23 are known Itachi haters and you also rate Deidara as extremely weak. It was just a trend I noticed. Ironically Munboy, SSM12 do the same but you know alright cause guys are only following manga canon.


Point is people like you are know Itachi fanboys and you also rate Deidara extremely powerful. It was just a trend I noticed. Ironically Grimjow, Nikushimi, etc.. do the same but you know alright cause you guys are only following the Itachi hentai that Stragoob drew.  

I also notice another trend, that despite Itachi-wankers saying otherwise usually Itachi-haters rank the people Itachi defeated higher than they do. Characters that were fodderized w/ back up by a group of rag-tag fodder and chuunin being the exception. Actually scratch that it's not an exception because Itachi never even beat PII-Deidara.


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## Ersa (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Point is people like you are know Itachi fanboys and you also rate Deidara extremely powerful. It was just a trend I noticed. Ironically Grimjow, Nikushimi, etc.. do the same but you know alright cause you guys are only following the Itachi hentai that Stragoob drew.
> 
> I also notice another trend, that despite Itachi-wankers saying otherwise usually Itachi-haters rank the people Itachi defeated higher than they do. Characters that were fodderized w/ back up by a group of rag-tag fodder and chuunin being the exception. Actually scratch that it's not an exception because Itachi never even beat PII-Deidara.


I am no Itachi fan. I merely despise Gaara.

And I don't overrate Deidara at all, in fact I'd probably chuck him below most of the Akatsuki. Still I think he just barely qualifies as a "mid" Kage as some people here seem to suggest.

Yeah so most of us do rate Nagato, Kabuto and Hebi Sasuke in fairly high regard. Most of them have the feats and hype to back it up. It may not fit in line with what some believe but it's reasonable. Far more reasonable then posts like he would struggle with Jounin or that he barely qualifies for a low-Kage.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2015)

No other Akatsuki member barring Nagato could do what Deidara did against Gaara, period. Going into Sunagakure and pulling out Gaara without lethal force and with an entire desert at his disposal: huge. 

Deidara also nearly killed Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Neji, and Lee without arms, forcing Kakashi to use an instant body-size Kamui, which is something only Nagato and Itachi could manage.

Itachi is great, but Deidara surpasses him in many ways. Turrin desperately using Edo de-hype is an end to the argument in itself. Aside the Nagato, Deidara has _the_ best ninjutsu in Akatsuki.

That said, Itachi is the single smartest and most skilled ninja in Narutoverse, which is why I'm his fan. He ain't all about power. But that's not the point of this thread.​


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I am no Itachi fan.







> Yeah so most of us do rate Nagato, Kabuto and Hebi Sasuke in fairly high regard. Most of them have the feats and hype to back it up. It may not fit in line with what some believe but it's reasonable. Far more reasonable then posts like he would struggle with Jounin or that he barely qualifies for a low-Kage.


He literally struggled with Jonin in the manga cannon. So I have no sympathy for your bitching about how Jonin can't give him problems, because that literally happened.

As far as qualifies for Low-Kage goes, I really don't care what you label him as anymore. You can call him God Tier for all the fuck I care at this point, but it still wouldn't change the fact that nearly every Kage we've seen is stronger than Deidara.


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## Matty (Jun 24, 2015)

Haha I do not underrate Itachi. I just don't see him as the deity everyone else does. He is one of my favorite characters because he is a badass not because I think he is the strongest. Sasori as well isn't the strongest but those 2 are easily my 2 favorites. I can definitely say I tend to overrate Sasori a bit but I think that is because so many people underrate him. All of those things aside I honestly do think Deidara is Low end mid kage. Just like Kakuzu.

Akatsuki

Nagato/Obito
Itachi
Sasori
Kisame
Deidara/Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


And personally I see Deidara winning all except Danzo and Sasori and if Gaara can counter C4 somehow he can win.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Haha I do not underrate Itachi. I just don't see him as the deity everyone else does.


Yeah you seem to be one of the few Itachi-fans who has his/her head on straight.



> All of those things aside I honestly do think Deidara is Low end mid kage. Just like Kakuzu.


Kakuzu is stronger than Deidara because his style does not have a crippling weakness like Deidara's.  That allows his strongest techniques to be shut down by the most basic applications of the Raiton element. This wasn't quite as big of a separating point back in the day, because Raiton users weren't that common, but in a Post-Data-Book IV world where we now know many characters can use Raiton in battle, it becomes a much bigger point of contention. This is especially true if we take into account each's effectiveness in Team-settings, where the opposing team is even more likely to have at least one Raiton user, as was the case with Omoi & the Ambush-Squad, and apparently Kankuro as well according to DBIV.

Do I think Kakuzu is way above Deidara, no I don't, but he is bigger threat on average, and therefore overall stronger.



> Akatsuki
> 
> Nagato/Obito
> Itachi
> ...


The only issue I have with this, is that one should avoid ranking Konan and Zetsu, because we lack the necessary information to do so.



> And personally I see Deidara winning all except Danzo and Sasori and if Gaara can counter C4 somehow he can win.


Under the new conditions he is not likely winning any matches.

Deidara despite being a Long-Range specialist, goes into CQC at the start of a match. Since he has no knowledge of his enemy he will do so here. 

Once he gets close to Mei, it's not likely Mei will give him a chance to obtain flight considering her ability to chase him down with speedy massive suitons if he seeks to create distance. And up close she can defend C1 with her suitons, while he is very much at risk of being one shotted by Youton and Futton.

Against Kakuzu, w/ no knowledge, by the time Deidara starts bringing out his bigger guns Kakuzu will have likely figured out Raiton can diffuse his bombs and once he's figured that out Gain trolls Deidara  to the point that I have a tough time seeing Deidara being able to pull a win here.

Against Gaara, Deidara will have a tough time with Gaara's ultimate defense, while on the other hand a less skillful version of Gaara was able to quickly catch Deidara and crush his arm, with an amount of Sand he can grind out no sweat. C4 and CO are really the only dangers here, and that's if he lasts long enough to know he needs to use them in a no knowledge match. C4, may simply be countered by Gaara's sand detecting the nano bombs depending on how meticulous their detection is, and if not that simply gives Deidara one option to defeating Deidara, while Gaara has many more options to defeat him. CO is a mutual draw if Deidara decides to pull it out, so there's that. So still the match is more likely to end in Gaara's victory or a draw than Deidara's win.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2015)

I've seen some irrational love/hatred for certain characters in this forum, but Turrin's irrational hatred towards Deidara overshadows all.
The thing is, I used to think Turrin hated Itachi the most, but now I see he probably hates Deidara just as much or even more.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Deidara is effectively a Mid-Kage Level Ninja as he is capable of infilitrating the Sand Village while avoiding detection from the Sky Guards, can effectively calculate the distance he is away from his opponent's and their range, and also can maneuvor in a way that makes it difficult for many ninja to attain the opportunity to strike as Kakashi claimed he couldn't find an opening despite his versatility in ninjutsu and thus, relied on S/T Ninjutsu in order to do so.

 Even then, we've seen what Deidara has been capable of without the bulk of his arsenal. He outmaneuvored Team Gai, landed a Bushin Feint that fooled 2 Sharingan Users, nearly blew up Team Gai and Team Kakashi with a single clone, and trained himself to not only perceive Sharingan Illusions, but also be able to handle them once they do land and effectively counter it. 

 That's some crazy shit. A Low Kage Ninja would not have been capable of doing something on that caliber IMO. I'd argue that he's closer to being a High Kage Level Ninja.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Deidara is mid true but then if he is mid danzo cant be mid as well nor can people like onoki, 3rd raikage or others on that ballpark be mid since they all dispatch deidara with low difficulty 

danzo auto trolls deidara its a nasty rape

doesnt mean deidara isnt mid in his own right just that people definition vary so much 

put him against the right opponent and he trolls against others that arent even that strong but have the tools to beat him and they low diff him

to me. if MS sasuke can 1 shot you without trying too hard then you cant be mid kage level


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## Ersa (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


>


Argued against him in the past, I am slightly biased perhaps but I don't go out of my way to downplay characters like some of you do. Except Gaara perhaps, fuck that joke of character.



> He literally struggled with Jonin in the manga cannon. So I have no sympathy for your bitching about how Jonin can't give him problems, because that literally happened.


Which Jounin?

The only Jounin I can think of is Gaara so I could give you this. But Hebi Sasuke is certainly no Jounin, Team Gai is an irrevelant example because he had no arms. So no, no Jounin except the sand ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) gave him trouble.



> As far as qualifies for Low-Kage goes, I really don't care what you label him as anymore. You can call him God Tier for all the fuck I care at this point, but it still wouldn't change the fact that nearly every Kage we've seen is stronger than Deidara.


He beat Gaara (not impressive I admit but it's a feat nonetheless), near tied with Hebi Sasuke and was held in high regard by Pain. This alone suggests he is above quite a few Kage. Gaara for one, he should also beat the 4th Kazekage and old Hiruzen.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Argued against him in the past, I am slightly biased perhaps but I don't go out of my way to downplay characters like some of you do. Except Gaara perhaps, fuck that joke of character.
> .


Please, any time you overrate a character you are inadvertently underrating other ones.



> Which Jounin?
> The only Jounin I can think of is Gaara so I could give you this. But Hebi Sasuke is certainly no Jounin, Team Gai is an irrevelant example because he had no arms. So no, no Jounin except the sand ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) gave him trouble.


Ittan, Omoi, Sai, Kankuro. Or are some of them Chunin?



> He beat Gaara (not impressive I admit but it's a feat nonetheless),


SPII-Gaara is thee weakest Kage we've seen bar none. His topographical advantage was also rendered moot by the type of fighter Deidara is  [A Flyer] and the fact that he only really made use of that excess sand when he had to, in-order to protect Sunagakuru.



> near tied with Hebi Sasuke


Easily Deidara's best performance in the series, but Hebi-Sasuke is weaker than most Kage too, and Deidara had situational advantages like Sasuke not going for the kill and having the help of Tobi.



> and was held in high regard by Pain


He was held in high regard in comparison to Tobi, according to the actual raw text, which doesn't say much at all.



> Gaara for one, he should also beat the 4th Kazekage and old Hiruzen.


Old-Hiruzen is hard to place because his hype has him far above Deidara, but his feats are lacking, because aside from his brief instance against Shin Suusenju he only fought back in the days of the Part I powerscale where a Hokage was god like because he could use a basic water wall w/o a water source.

Deidara can be about an equal threat to Gaara and Rasa, but he is ultimately an inferior ninja, because unlike them his fighting style has one of the biggest crippling weakness in cannon with it's insane elemental inferiority to Raiton. Which now everyone and their mom has as of DBIV.

I would place him above SPII-Gaara though, but that's not saying much at all.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

hebi sasuke is weaker than most kages true. he does however violate Mei 11/10


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## Mercurial (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Please, any time you overrate a character you are inadvertently underrating other ones.
> 
> 
> Ittan, Omoi, Sai, Kankuro. Or are some of them Chunin?
> ...



Deidara's jutsu have a giant weakness against Raiton, but you know, it's not like everyone and their mothers are skilled Sharingan users to read his hand seals and understand that shit, you know.


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## Deer Lord (Jun 24, 2015)

^
Not too sure about that.
he can't copy kekkai genkai. and unlike his MS counterpart he has no defense against her.
one hit from Yoton/Futton and he's fucked pretty bad.
hidden mist is also a bitch.

Hebi sauce can take mei 6/10 probably, heavily depends on conditions (he fares better in an open area)


Anyhow, either way you look at it deidara isn't far above these guys and any mid-kage murders him without favorable conditions.


As for Old hiruzan, he's a joke by feats.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Deidara's jutsu have a giant weakness against Raiton, but you know, it's not like everyone and their mothers are skilled Sharingan users to read his hand seals and understand that shit, you know.


I'm sure that most Ninja would at least come up with the hypothesis that his CLAY Jutsu are Doton Based after fighting him for awhile and it's not like he's fucking Itachi in handseal speed, so I'm sure many of the high level ninja he's often put up against will indeed see him form a Doton seal eventually even w/o Sharingan. 

Beyond that it's not like Kibaku Nendo's weakness to raiton is some well kept secret. even relative fodder Iwagakuru shinobi seem to know about this fact. He's an infamous S-Classing Missing Ninja after all, and Kibaku Nendo is a famous Iwagakuru Kinjutsu.

So while I feel there will probably be some character who have Raiton that Deidara may beat before they get a chance to use it against him, it still limits his effectiveness greatly and gives enemies a potentially much easier way to deal with him than they have for dealing with most other Shinobi I commonly see being placed side by side with Deidara, which should drop him bellow them due to that weakness.

I.E. if we suppliment Deidara for Kakuzu against Kakahsi + Team 10, Team-Kakashi probably isn't having anywhere near as tough off a time as against Kakuzu, since Kakashi can shut down Deidara's shit with Raiton. Or if we supplement Kakuzu vs Hebi-Sasuke, Sasuke's probably going to need Kirin, because he can't shut down Kakuzu's shit with Raiton. Or moving away from Sharingan users if we put Kakuzu up against the ambush-squad he'd obliterate them because Omoi wouldn't be able to shut down Kakuzu's strongest techniques and restrain him with basic Raiton flow. Just using Kakuzu as an example, but this applies to other characters being compared to Deidara here such as Mei and War-Arc Gaara


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## Csdabest (Jun 24, 2015)

Give Deidara Rikudou or Sage Chakra.And he be up with the big boys. Honestly he is insanely strong and his edo was gimped And those mini celluar bombs is HAX especially if you dont have the ability to directly counter it.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> Give Deidara Rikudou or Sage Chakra.And he be up with the big boys. Honestly he is insanely strong and his edo was gimped And those mini celluar bombs is HAX especially if you dont have the ability to directly counter it.


All Edo did is give Deidara the advantage of an immortal body, it did not disadvantage him in anyway. Deidara lost to the ambush squad, because of A) his arrogance and B) his crippling weakness to Raiton. His arrogance made him start with C1 and take the squad lightly, and his weakness to Raiton allowed his strongest technique to be managed by someone otherwise much weaker than him, Omoi.

Deidara's loss their is completely due his own personal weaknesses as a character. Does this mean he doesn't have better performances, of course not, but it's ridiculous bias to not take into account his worst performances, just as much as one takes into account his better performances, as his worst performance also provides important information, again on his weaknesses that should be taken into consideration when evaluating his strength, as none of the characters you'd probably put Deidara above [besides the obvious ones] would likely loose to the ambush-squad, and this is not because Deidara was gimped or PNJ, it's because the ambush-squad played on Deidara's weaknesses, weaknesses that these other characters ether don't have or at least not as accutely as Deidara, and it's only fair that this should count for something when comparing them


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## Mercurial (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm sure that most Ninja would at least come up with the hypothesis that his CLAY Jutsu are Doton Based after fighting him for awhile and it's not like he's fucking Itachi in handseal speed, so I'm sure many of the high level ninja he's often put up against will indeed see him form a Doton seal eventually even w/o Sharingan.
> 
> Beyond that it's not like Kibaku Nendo's weakness to raiton is some well kept secret. even relative fodder Iwagakuru shinobi seem to know about this fact. He's an infamous S-Classing Missing Ninja after all, and Kibaku Nendo is a famous Iwagakuru Kinjutsu.
> 
> ...



He flies away. Very quickly or on a giant dragon while throwing bombs at you. Most aren't reading his hand seals.

Most of people aren't from Iwagakure which is Deidara's birthplace.

Not more than other people with other weaknesses/weak points are limited by their own weaknesses/weak points.

That's because of a favourable match-up with a both Sharingan and Raiton master. Yeah the Sasuke example is true. The Kakuzu example is not because usually Deidara could have raped them with C2 already. Now you will say that even Omoi could shut up Deidara's finishing move but you have to remember that Deidara was already stopped in his tracks that time. Usually Deidara (on foot or with his flying creatures) can dodge Sasuke's Shunshin swing, dodge tons of sand thrown on him by Gaara in the desert, keep up with flying Onoki (who could dodge and paralyze five Madara Susanoo clones), have a speedster and ninjutsu expert like Kakashi rely on Kamui to be sure to hit him once he is flying, pressure a fast character like Hebi Sasuke and so on. He has hax things like C4, very very high destructive power with C3 and things that can be very troublesome like Nendo Bunshin and Jibaku Bunshin.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Csdabest said:


> Give Deidara Rikudou or Sage Chakra.And he be up with the big boys. Honestly he is insanely strong and his edo was gimped And those mini celluar bombs is HAX especially if you dont have the ability to directly counter it.



 That doesn't really mean much. After all, Rikudou Chakra can make anyone pretty damn powerful provided they can actually handle chakra of that caliber. 

 Turrin, I think you're highly underrating how effectively Sharingan users can perceive seals compared to other ninja. Not even Shikamaru could identify Kakuzu's incompatibility with Raiton despite Shikamaru being very perceptive and an incredible genius. The only one who managed to do so was Kakashi against Kakuzu and Sasuke against Deidara and both Akatsuki members have a 4.5 in hand seals.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> He flies away. Very quickly or on a giant dragon while throwing bombs at you.


If ones vision being obscured was an issue, Sharingan wouldn't work ether. Sasuke specifically says he could read Deidara's seals with Sharingan, because they were visible:

"Against the Sharingan, the only thing you can do is hide your hands while you form seals.
No matter how fast you are, if they're visible, your seals will be read."

So Deidara's seals are visible despite him flying quickly and throwing bombs at his enemies. The only thing that makes them difficult to read is the speed at which they are formed. However more on that bellow:



> Most aren't reading his hand seals.


If Enma can read the exact order of the complex set of hand-seals Hiruzen uses for Shiki Fuujin, despite Hiruzen having a 5 in Hand-Seals speed, which is way better than Deidara's slightly above average 3.5, than I find it very hard to believe that Top-Jonin and Kages would remain ignorant to Deidara's usage of the Doton seal the entire battle. 



> Most of people aren't from Iwagakure which is Deidara's birthplace.


Actually considering Iwagakuru is one of the 5 Great Shinobi Villages, and among them is tied with Kumo for the strongest military and has second biggest population after Konoha. I'm going to say that a great deal of Shinobi are indeed from Iwagakure. And when most of the major battles in the Naruto world take place between the 5 Great Ninja Villages ether fighting against each other or Fight alongside each other, chances are very high that you'll be running into may Iwagakuru Shinobi, during ones career as a Ninja.

Beyond that. Deidara himself was famous not just in Iwagakuru, but world wide as an S-Class Missing Criminal who once traveled the world as part of the even more famous organization; Akatsuki. And beyond Deidara Kibaku Nendo is a Forbidden Jutsu of Iwagakuru, so more than Just Deidara have thus used it in the past.



> Not more than other people with other weaknesses/weak points are limited by their own weaknesses/weak points.


Name one other character who has a weakness that is as crippling as Deidara's. Where their strongest Jutsu can be render totally useless by thee most basic application of a extremely common ability, like Raiton nature alteration. 



> That's because of a favourable match-up with a both Sharingan and Raiton master. Yeah the Sasuke example is true. The Kakuzu example is not because usually Deidara could have raped them with C2 already


Deidara is not beating Team 10 + Kakashi w/ C2. Deidara would not survive Shikkamaru and Kakashi's opening ambush gambit, due to Kakashi seeing his seals and using Raiton to counter his Kibaku Nendo, just like he counter Domu, but unlike Kakuzu Deidara isn't getting back up again and pulling out new powerful Jutsu from other elements to counter Kakashi's Raitons.



> Now you will say that even Omoi could shut up Deidara's finishing move but you have to remember that Deidara was already stopped in his tracks that time. Usually Deidara (on foot or with his flying creatures) can dodge Sasuke's Shunshin swing, dodge tons of sand thrown on him by Gaara in the desert, keep up with flying Onoki (who could dodge and paralyze five Madara Susanoo clones), have a speedster and ninjutsu expert like Kakashi rely on Kamui to be sure to hit him once he is flying, pressure a fast character like Hebi Sasuke and so on.


Omoi having the help of a few other Chunin and Jonin, doesn't diminish what happened there. Edo-Deidara lost to a group of characters that are otherwise much weaker than him because of his weakness to Raiton was so crippling. Otherwise they would have all been casually wrecked by CO. but instead Deidara was casually wrecked. That difference needs to be accounted for in some fashion and i'm just not seeing that from a-lot of people including yourself.



> He has hax things like C4, very very high destructive power with C3 and things that can be very troublesome like Nendo Bunshin and Jibaku Bunshin.


I'm not in anyway disputing that Deidara has some powerful abilities, all Kages have powerful abilities, the difference being that none of them have as crippling and common of a weakness as Deidara's abilities do. If Deidara did not have his arrogance or weakness to Raiton he'd be rated very differently, but these weaknesses are built into his character for a reason, and it's to limit his strength.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

I feel like if the weakness was _that_ crippling, Hebi Sasuke would have low diffed Deidara. Like, _before_ he ran out of chakra and had to sack off a boss summon to avoid dying.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'm sure that most Ninja would at least come up with the hypothesis that his CLAY Jutsu are Doton Based after fighting him for awhile and it's not like he's fucking Itachi in handseal speed, so I'm sure many of the high level ninja he's often put up against will indeed see him form a Doton seal eventually even w/o Sharingan.
> 
> Beyond that it's not like Kibaku Nendo's weakness to raiton is some well kept secret. even relative fodder Iwagakuru shinobi seem to know about this fact. He's an infamous S-Classing Missing Ninja after all, and Kibaku Nendo is a famous Iwagakuru Kinjutsu.
> 
> ...



chidori eiso against kakuzu says 
lol 
obvious troll

@Raikiri19 btw I would agree that deidara is not beating team10+kakashi. his C2 dragon has a massive shadow that shikamaru can easily use to capture deidara if deidara isn't aware. then kakashi goes for raikiri and wins 

while I don't think deidara is this weak person the truth is. a mere ration flow against him basically means you have won

NO ninja has such a pathetic weakness


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I have always wondered where people rank Deidara. Some have him incredibly high  in the Akatsuki while others have him incredibly low. I feel like he should be ranked in the middle. But is he Mid Kage level? Can he stand up to, any of these who are considered mid kage (IMO) and if so how many can he beat?
> 
> Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
> Restrictions: Koto for Danzo
> ...



The only one Deidara couldn't defeat is KA Danzo and he would have mild difficult against Kakuzu. Other than that, he can beat the others. As for where I rank him, the ones marked red can actually be put in any order, but I believe Deidara deserves the go ahead because he easily can crush a village on his own. While the others might be able to accomplish a similar feat, none of them would do it quicker than Deidara.

*Akatsuki Ranking*


Obito
Nagato
Itachi
*Deidara*
Kisame
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu

He's not mid-kage level at all because he can solo 3 of the 5 kage without a problem. He defeated Gaara before, he'll do so again. He can easily embarrass Mei and Tsunade. Oonoki might be able to defeat him if he resorts to Jinton early enough but if drags on to C4, I don't think Oonoki would win. The only one he can't beat is the Raikage and a Koto Danzo, for obvious reasons.

Sasori would lose to Deidara, despite being able to use Iron Sand, Deidara can make multiple bombs and target Sasori directly and the 3rd Kazekage simultaneously. Plus, any shinobi with the ability to attack from multiple angles really put Sasori in a bad place when it comes to defense. 

Kisame and Kakuzu are a bad match up for Deidara because his normal advantages are nullified (being in the air). I don't think Kisame can be killed with C4 underwater. But if he was to step out, he'd probably die then. C3 would be enough to debilitate Kisame, however, he could probably recover thanks to Samehada. Deidara could force him out of the water with bombs but Kisame could likely avoid them due to his sensing ability. 

Kakuzu has an impressive defense system with Domu and can counter him to some extent using Gian. In fact, Kakuzu would have the upper hand so as long as C4 doesn't come out. At which point, he's not really that great of sensor and he'd lose the fight there.





Turrin said:


> The manga has illustrated many times that someone much weaker can defeat someone much stronger with favorable conditions. To me this thread is very simply another expression of that. The conditions are skewed to so greatly favor Deidara that he has a decent chance against characters that are otherwise stronger than him.
> 
> So him being able to win against Kakuzu, Gaara, or Mei here proves nothing to me about his standings next to them. And even despite extremely favorable conditions he still will loose to Sasori and Danzo, almost all the time.
> 
> As far as Deidara's placement goes, I'm kind of getting tired of labeling characters in tiers, so I'll just say he is much weaker than Danzo and Sasori. He's closer to Mei, Gaara, and Kakuzu, but ultimately he is weaker than all of them, because his fighting style has it's glaring weakness to Raiton, while theirs do not possess similar extreme weaknesses. Deidara's intelligence is also inconsistent due to his arrogance, so that's another issue that keeps him bellow these ninja.



He's not weaker than Mei, Gaara and Kakuzu, Nagato described it the best, stating that losing Deidara was a more massive blow than losing any of the previous Akatsuki members (e.g. Kakuzu, Hidan, Orochimaru and Sasori). He wipes the floor with the War Arc Kages except for the 4th Raikage and maybe Oonoki.

Of what you said the only that maybe true was his anger clouding his judgment, at times. If he takes the fight personally, which he might against someone like Oonoki. But if it's some random kage, it won't be much of a hindrance.


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## Mercurial (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> If ones vision being obscured was an issue, Sharingan wouldn't work ether. Sasuke specifically says he could read Deidara's seals with Sharingan, because they were visible:
> 
> "Against the Sharingan, the only thing you can do is hide your hands while you form seals.
> No matter how fast you are, if they're visible, your seals will be read."
> ...



Yeah, because Sasuke is not fast and with high reflexes boosted by Sharingan precognition.

Databook stats mean nothing, manga feats mean. Also you are assuming that Enma has slow reflexes and slow perceptions, where there is nothing to say that.

Name some strong characters from Iwagakure that aren't Onoki, Mu and Deidara himself. Yeah Kitsuchi, who is stomped by Deidara. Then the void. If you're talking about fodder characters (at best jonin level) yeah there are a lot of Iwagakure shinobi, but I'm talking about relevant characters here.

A lot of people. Because Deidara's weakness is not so exceptional.

I never said that, that would be foolish on my part, Kakashi would solo Deidara in the first place. In fact I was talking about Deidara stomping Ittan, Omoi and co with C2, if not plot hindered. I think we can agree on that.

You are overexagerating it I think.





Icegaze said:


> chidori eiso against kakuzu says
> lol
> obvious troll
> 
> ...



I never said that, infact I was suggesting the opposite. I was talking about Deidara negging Omoi, Kankuro and the rest, which I think everyone can agree on.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

yes raikiri everyone agrees on that or at least should 

deidara got cocky cuz he couldn't die. he had no reason to fight tactically, he also had no idea his weakness was common knowledge 

one cant say omoi and the rest trolled him so he is shit while forgetting he beat gaara in suna and fought hebi sasuke in a tough battle 

odd how people only use the battles or feats they care about its bloody stupid way of thinking 

on some barca beats real last match therefore they are the best by far. while ignoring its possible that they lost just the match before. sorry footy reference


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## Matty (Jun 24, 2015)

@ryuzaki you have Deidara as first after the three members who are clearly above the rest? There is no way Deidara is that high in the Akatsuki chain with such a glaring weakness, his admitted inferiority to Sasori and his feats... Kisame is easillllly stronger than Deidara


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He's not weaker than Mei, Gaara and Kakuzu, Nagato described it the best, stating that losing Deidara was a more massive blow than losing any of the previous Akatsuki members (e.g. Kakuzu, Hidan, Orochimaru and Sasori). He wipes the floor with the War Arc Kages except for the 4th Raikage and maybe Oonoki.
> .


That never happened in the manga. Literally all the raw text says is that Deidara was a bigger loss than Tobi. THAT"S IT



Rocky said:


> I feel like if the weakness was _that_ crippling, Hebi Sasuke would have low diffed Deidara. Like, _before_ he ran out of chakra and had to sack off a boss summon to avoid dying.


One has to remember that Deidara was well suited for taking on Sasuke's abilities as well, literally having trained to fight an Uchiha. On-top of that Sasuke would have defeated him easier if he was going for the kill and Deidara did not have the help of Tobi.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Granted, but I'm talking only about the ability of Raiton to troll Deidara. Sasuke would've had it easier under different circumstances, but if he could've casually disabled Deidara's entire arsenal (since he's one of the best Raiton users we've seen in the series), don't you think Sasuke _wouldn't_ have had to resort to things like the Curse Seal or Genjutsu to survive?

You make it sound as if someone like Gai or Gengetsu could just shut down all of his shit with their featless Raiton.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I feel like if the weakness was _that_ crippling, Hebi Sasuke would have low diffed Deidara. Like, _before_ he ran out of chakra and had to sack off a boss summon to avoid dying.



 Even then, people overexaggerate Hebi Sasuke's elemental advantage.

 If anything, him being a close range fighter actually placed him at a disadvantage as well as the fact that without prep, he has no real method of overloading Deidara's most potent attacks with electricity. He did have an advantage with him having the Sharingan, but I personally believe that Sasuke was at a disadvantage and simply had to be more perceptive than Deidara was in order to win and it showed.


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## ShadoLord (Jun 24, 2015)

Deidara defeated Gaara without his strongest bomb, C4. Although Gaara was protecting the village, he still lost so I'd peg Deidara around Gaara's level. 

And Top Kages are Hashirama, Tobirama, and Minato. So mid tier kages sounds about right.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Granted, but I'm talking only about the ability of Raiton to troll Deidara. Sasuke would've had it easier under different circumstances, but if he could've casually disabled Deidara's entire arsenal (since he's one of the best Raiton users we've seen in the series), don't you think Sasuke _wouldn't_ have had to resort to things like the Curse Seal or Genjutsu to survive?


The circumstance is what prevent Sasuke from exercising the full advantage that Raiton granted him in that match. For example:

At the very start of the match Deidara uses C1 against Sasuke, which Sasuke diffuses with Chidori Senbon. This gives Sasuke the opening to catch Deidara off guard and attack him from behind. But Tobi warns Deidara to dodge. Additionally Tobi's existence there prevents Sasuke from immediately knowing that his Raiton defuses Deidara's bombs, as he was not sure whether Deidara just stopped his C1 from exploding for Tobi's sake or if his Jutsu diffused Deidara's bombs. This in turn led to Sasuke struggling with testing his hypothesis while under attack from C2 which Deidara had help setting up. Once he confirms his hypothesis he owns Deidara and his C2 Dragon through the use of his Raitons and a basic Shuriken gambit. 

From there Sasuke would have defeated Deidara in his next move, if not for Deidara specifically training to counter Uchiha-Genjutsu and using that against Sasuke to create an opening for C4. However even despite this allowing Deidara to hit Sasuke with a point blank usage of his best Kibaku Nendo model, though this was still countered by Raiton. Than intsead of landing a killing blow on Deidara, he punches him in the face allowing Deidara the opening to unleash CO, which Sasuke still escapes winning the battle

You remove the beneficial conditions and the match would be way easier due to Raiton. Sasuke could very well have killed Deidara with his opening gambit of the match. If not he would have almost immediately known Raiton defuses Deidara's bombs and could have used Raiton to easily defuse Deidara's C2 and w/o even having to worry about the landmines, he would have brought down Deidara's C2-Dragon much easier. And w/o any reason to keep Deidara alive and w/o Deidara specifically training to counter Sharingan, Deidara would have certainly died to ether Kirin or one of Sasuke's Chidori from behind gambits.



> You make it sound as if someone like Gai or Gengetsu could just shut down all of his shit with their featless Raiton.


They can, literally anyone can w/ basic Raiton after Omoi's showing. That doesn't mean that they can beat Deidara with their arms and legs chopped off and only relying on Raiton. It simply means that there ability to use Raiton can prove extremely useful in conjunction with their other skills against Deidara, due to how weak Deidara is too it, thus enabling anyone or any team with Raiton to potentially defeat Deidara much easier than they otherwise could or if the otherwise could have defeated him at all.

---------

The best way to explain it is through Pokemon logic.

A Fire Type vs a Fire Type, will come down to whose LV is higher and who uses their moves better
However a High LV Grass type could still loose to a lower LV Fire Type, despite play a perfect game, because the Fire-Type is super effective against Grass
And a Much Higher LV Grass/Bug Type could loose to a Much Lower LV Fire type because Fire-Type is x4 effective against Bug/Grass Types

Deidara is like a Bug + Grass + Ice + Steel Type [All the types weak to Fire combined], he could still win against a Fire Type or a Pokemon that can use Fire Type attacks, it's would just beWAY fucking harder for him even against ones of Vastly Lower LV than him

So if I'm going to choose a Pokemon I probably not picking a LV50 Deidaramon over a LV50 Kakuzumon, who does not have such a crippling weakness, fuck I might not even pick a Lv 50 Deidaramon over a LV 40 Kakuzumon, due to such a glaring weakness.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> That never happened in the manga. Literally all  the raw text says is that Deidara was a bigger loss than Tobi. THAT"S IT


Turrin, My mistake, I suppose based on the scantlation at the time (almost 8 years ago) that's what I remembered. Yes, he did say that about Tobi, but he made no such statement about Hidan/Kakuzu, in terms of their abilities. He made a point to single out Deidara, nothing was stated after those two perished.





matty1991 said:


> @ryuzaki you have Deidara as first after the three members who are clearly above the rest? There is no way Deidara is that high in the Akatsuki chain with such a glaring weakness, his admitted inferiority to Sasori and his feats... Kisame is easillllly stronger than Deidara


Well, here's the thing, Kakuzu and Kisame are debatable in a 1 vs. 1 fight against Deidara. Sasori, despite what he said, it was more or less implied that he wanted to separate Naruto and Kakashi. He was trying to make conditions favorable for Kakashi to retreat and allow him to fight Naruto in 1 vs. 1. match up. Deidara's only weakness is the raition element, none of these characters have that except for Kakuzu.

Kisame isn't entirely above Deidara and Deidara maintains the elemental superiority and Kisame would still have to tend with bombs underwater. I believe C3 would pretty much blow up his lake. If anything I'd say Kisame was at a disadvantage given the conditions you have provided here (Deidara starting off with the C2 Dragon). Deidara can send homing bombs at him as well, which is why him flying over and bombing Kisame would work so well. 

I don't think Kisame has a possible manner of reaching him, especially since this is a dry land location. Kisame would have to make a lake to swim in it and if he uses Kisamehada, he'll have the advantage in avoiding the bombs but he'll still be limited to his water. And I still don't see a way for him to properly avoid C4, even underwater, he still breathes through his gills does he not?


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Deidara defeated Gaara without his strongest bomb, C4. Although Gaara was protecting the village, he still lost so I'd peg Deidara around Gaara's level.



He _captured_ Gaara _in a desert_ in his _own village._

Nagato's the only other Akatsuki that could do that.



Ryuzaki said:


> *Akatsuki Ranking*
> 
> 
> Obito
> ...




Nagato
Itachi
Obito
*Deidara*
Kisame
Sasori
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu




Icegaze said:


> hebi sasuke is weaker than most kages true.



Between CS2, genjutsu, Kirin, and boss summons, I don't think so.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Nagato
> Itachi
> Obito
> *Deidara*
> ...




 Yeah but due to the fact that he can use actual large scale ninjutsu from a distance it puts Sasori at a disadvantage. Plus, he's got Raiton Gian to mess up the Iron Sand.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Between CS2, genjutsu, Kirin, and boss summons, I don't think so.



hey strat 

list of kages whose abilities we know and have seen fighting 

Hashirama- no need to compare
tobirama- same as above
minato- same as above
hiruzen
A - same as above
A sandaime- sam as above
Gaara
Rasa
Gengetsu- same as above
Muu- same as above
Mei
onoki - same as above
danzo- cuz I feel like it, izanagi absolute GG
tsunade

please name 6 that hebi sasuke can actually beat from that list. cuz I really cant count up to 6. hiruzen, tsunade, mei, gaara, rasa are the only ones sasuke would beat. 

again you can poll these options. I am so very sure most would agree from what hebi has showed everyone else should low to neg diff him.

so yes being  able to maybe beat 5 out of 14. means most kages that have been shown will beat him


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Thinking about it, Kishi really trolled his own elemental wheel by having basic Raiton flow counter C0.

It's like Gengetsu beating Great Fire Annihilation with Water Gun.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hey strat
> 
> list of kages whose abilities we know and have seen fighting
> 
> ...



Done. Feel free to ask for elaboration on any one match.

(And A is just a good match-up.)

Sasori, Kakuzu, Mifune, Hanzo, Hidan, etc. all also "S" or Kage levels he'd beat.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Thinking about it, Kishi really trolled his own elemental wheel by having basic Raiton flow counter C0.
> 
> It's like Gengetsu beating Great Fire Annihilation with Water Gun.


All that means is Squirtle will have a shot at beating Madara in the crossover


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Turrin, My mistake, I suppose based on the scantlation at the time (almost 8 years ago) that's what I remembered. Yes, he did say that about Tobi, but he made no such statement about Hidan/Kakuzu, in terms of their abilities. He made a point to single out Deidara, nothing was stated after those two perishe


He singled Deidara out in comparison to Tobi, I.E. the statement is saying that Deidara is more special than Tobi and nothing more. To use it to assert Deidara's superiority over other Akatsuki is a perversion of the text. Not saying your intentionally doing so, because you can't read the Raws and the online trans is a bit misleading, but now you know.



> Deidara's only weakness is the raition element, none of these characters have that except for Kakuzu.


If I was a betting man I'd put money on Sasori having Raiton considering how many elements characters have in the DB, and the fact that Sasori has 198 human puppets who can all use the Jutsu they had when alive and i'd expect a number of them to be able to use nature recomposition, again considering the DB.



Rocky said:


> Thinking about it, Kishi really trolled his own elemental wheel by having basic Raiton flow counter C0.
> 
> It's like Gengetsu beating Great Fire Annihilation with Water Gun.


Yeah Kishi made Kibaku Nendo so much weaker to it's opposing element than any other elemental technique, that it really stands out. But that just makes it more obvious that Kishimoto intentionally did that to make Deidara weaker.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yeah Kishi made Kibaku Nendo so much weaker to it's opposing element than any other elemental technique, that it really stands out. But that just makes it more obvious that Kishimoto intentionally did that to make Deidara weaker.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He singled Deidara out in comparison to Tobi, I.E. the statement is saying that Deidara is more special than Tobi and nothing more. To use it to assert Deidara's superiority over other Akatsuki is a perversion of the text. Not saying your intentionally doing so, because you can't read the Raws and the online trans is a bit misleading, but now you know.


He made close to no mention about Hidan and Kakuzu when they passed and the conversation was simply they're dead. Which makes sense if you think about, out of the Akatsuki, Deidara is the only one who could infiltrate a village on his own and destroy it, except for perhaps Pain/Nagato. None of the other members could do that, Deidara could make multiple bombs and in a few swoops and easily destroy them. 



Turrin said:


> If I was a betting man I'd put money on Sasori having Raiton considering how many elements characters have in the DB, and the fact that Sasori has 198 human puppets who can all use the Jutsu they had when alive and i'd expect a number of them to be able to use nature recomposition, again considering the DB.



He may, he may not, but he hasn't shown it so for the purposes of the debate he doesn't. However, he'd have to recognize that the jutsu is earth based first. Then there was a whole thought process/hunch which Sasuke managed to figure it out by chance. He doesn't use the any raiton powered puppets in his classic forte. Ergo, he'll never jump to making these conclusions (assuming he has the foresight in order to do so).


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Not so much a plot nerf as a character design choice, but yeah.



Ryuzaki said:


> He made close to no mention about Hidan and Kakuzu when they passed and the conversation was simply they're dead.


Cool and he wasn't comparing Hidan and Kakuzu's loss to Tobi's, therefore the comparison doesn't work. Deidara being special next to Tobi in no way reflects on anyone other than Tobi. End of story.



> Which makes sense if you think about, out of the Akatsuki, Deidara is the only one who could infiltrate a village on his own and destroy it, except for perhaps Pain/Nagato. None of the other members could do that, Deidara could make multiple bombs and in a few swoops and easily destroy them.


This has more to do with the type of Ninja Deidara is and plot bullshit with the entire village just standing around twiddling their thumbs, while he and Gaara did their thing. For example War-Arc Kakashi couldn't solo Sungakuru, so is he weaker than Deidara? How about Itachi?  How about Hebi-Sasuke who outright was proven to be stronger, but couldn't solo a village or even the more powerful MS-Sasuke?  You end up with some pretty strange nonsense if we follow your logic here.



> He may, he may not, but he hasn't shown it so for the purposes of the debate he doesn't. However, he'd have to recognize that the jutsu is earth based first.  Then there was a whole thought process/hunch which Sasuke managed to figure it out by chance. He doesn't use the any raiton powered puppets in his classic forte. Ergo, he'll never jump to making these conclusions (assuming he has the foresight in order to do so).


Huh? If were trying to figure out who would actually win a characters abilities matter whether they've been shown or not. And the idea that Sasori doesn't know Kibaku Nendo is Doton based after being his partner is absolutely baffling to me. As for the puppets not using Raiton, he had no reason to have them use Raiton and we didn't see much from the puppets anyway as the Jutsu ended quickly.

But I was more speaking towards how likely it is that Deidara's enemies would have Raiton

Fuck I think every Kage that got an elemental wheel in the Data-book had Raiton, except Rasa:

Mu, Onoki, Mei, Troll, Gaara, Kakashi, Naruto, Tsunade, Hashirama, Darui, Ei, Sandaime-Raikage, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato all have Raiton.


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## thechickensage (Jun 24, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He may, he may not, but he hasn't shown it so for the purposes of the debate he doesn't. However, he'd have to recognize that the jutsu is earth based first. Then there was a whole thought process/hunch which Sasuke managed to figure it out by chance. He doesn't use the any raiton powered puppets in his classic forte. Ergo, he'll never jump to making these conclusions (assuming he has the foresight in order to do so).



He was his partner so of course he would know deidara's element

And it's basically 100% certain he has puppets who can use lightning based jutsus...it would be rather absurd/improbable if he didn't

Assuming he has none is a much bigger leap of faith than assuming he has at least one raiton user.  Basically any high level shinobi has multiple elements, and sasori has a kage lol


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Not so much a plot nerf as a character design choice, but yeah.



Do you think Kishimoto created C0 with the intention that it could be completely nullified by the most basic application Raitonjutsu we've ever seen despite the technique's debut being against a character that possesses quick & ranged Raiton beams?

Or do you think Kishimoto nerfed Deidara last second because he couldn't have Deidara blowing up the Ambush Squad, similar to how he nerfed Godruto so that he and Sasuke wouldn't draw peace signs on the ground with Shin's blood?


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Do you think Kishimoto created C0 with the intention that it could be completely nullified by the most basic application Raitonjutsu we've ever seen despite the technique's debut being against a character that possesses quick & ranged Raiton beams?
> 
> Or do you think Kishimoto nerfed Deidara last second because he couldn't have Deidara blowing up the Ambush Squad, similar to how he nerfed Godruto so that he and Sasuke wouldn't draw peace signs on the ground with Shin's blood?



Deidara was always that weak to raiton, as we never saw a single bomb not be diffused by raiton, despite simple raiton flow being used to diffuse them. Sasuke also never stated their was a limit to the bombs he could and couldn't diffuse with Raiton. And Deidara himself calls it a weakspot of his art in general, not just the weaker bombs. Such as Sasuke diffusing C2 with a mere raiton flow sword. As for why Sasuke didn't diffuse CO, he does move to do something, but he stumbles over and doesn't make it in time:
1

So no this just seems like an excuse to me, and even if this was the case it's now cannon that Deidara's Kibaku Nendo is that weak to Raiton, so you need to live with it.

Edit: Plus who would have batted an eye if he gave Omoi much better Raiton skills, it's not like we knew anything about Omoi's capabilities at that point and he was the student of B the Raikage's brother. So it would hardly be shocking at all if he pulled out a A-Rank or even S-Rank Raiton to deal with CO. Kishi choosing to show basic Raiton flow countering CO was just that, a choice, he could have done something different very easily, but he wants Kibaku Nendo to be that weak to Raiton.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> and even if this was the case it's now cannon



Just a question. 

Do you believe that Sasuke's sword - that bounced of Raikage's neck - injuring RSM Hokage Naruto should be taken seriously?


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## thechickensage (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Or do you think Kishimoto nerfed Deidara last second because he couldn't have Deidara blowing up the Ambush Squad, similar to how he nerfed Godruto so that he and Sasuke wouldn't draw peace signs on the ground with Shin's blood?



thanks for reminding me of some of the worst parts of naruto.  oyyyyyyyyyyy

i mean...JUST WRITE NEW VILLAINS

edo tensei is for people who can't write.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just a question.
> 
> Do you believe that Sasuke's sword - that bounced of Raikage's neck - injuring RSM Hokage Naruto should be taken seriously?


Let me ask you a question how does Shin's Jutsu work? How does he control the weapons? How fast does the sword move? Don't you think it's wise to get the answers to these questions before bitching about the sword piercing Naruto?

Not to mention it's a totally fucking different sword than the one used against Raikage, and could have magic properties itself. Not saying that's likely but it's feasible, and just furthers the fact that your bitching w/o having enough information to bitch.

Now moving on from that, the comparison your making is bias beyond belief. If the sword is indeed a normal sword and Shin's MS Jutsu doesn't do anything special to it, than we have many direct examples that illustrate the sword shouldn't have pierced Naruto. However in the case of Deidara's Kibaku Nendo we have no examples of it not being diffused by Raiton and we've seen very powerful bombs diffused by basic Raiton. Deidara and Sasuke both do not at all distinguish the power of the bombs mattering to Raiton's ability to diffuse them. And your entire argument rests on Kishi allowing Omoi's Raiton to stop CO because there was no other way to get the ambush squad out that mess, but literally he could have just given Omoi an S-Rank or A-Rank Raiton considering that even CE-Sasuke could use Chidori and Omoi is the student of the Raikage's brother, so that excuse doesn't even make sense.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Let me ask you a question how does Shin's Jutsu work? How does he control the weapons?



With his Mangekyou...

He looks at it, and the weapon moves without him having to touch it. You read the chapters, right?



> How fast does the sword move?



Probably as fast as all of the other weapons the Shins control, which is nothing extraordinary.

Especially so when given about a foot to accelerate. 



Turrin said:


> Not to mention it's a totally fucking different sword than the one used against Raikage, and could have magic properties itself.



It's a magic sword. 

Sasuke has a magic sword now. 

You think it's feasible Sasuke now has a magic sword now and Kishi omitted that detail.

Really.



Turrin said:


> Deidara and Sasuke both do not at all distinguish the power of the bombs mattering to Raiton's ability to diffuse them.



Kishimoto dedicated a chapter to this.

Raiton flow wouldn't beat C0 like Water Wall wouldn't beat Great Fire Annihilation because the techniques are of a drastically different level.

Maybe you think Kishimoto had always thought Deidara was an exception, but why Sasuke opted to refrain from using Chidori Eiso when he had time to summon, genjutsu that summon, and hop in its mouth before Deidara blew up will always mystify me.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> With his Mangekyou...
> 
> He looks at it, and the weapon moves without him having to touch it. You read the chapters, right?


Cool and how does that work. Does he form chakra around the weapons. Does it work through magnetism. And so on. You basically got nothing.



> Probably as fast as all of the other weapons the Shins control, which is nothing extraordinary.
> 
> Especially so when given about a foot to accelerate.


Prove it



> It's a magic sword.
> 
> Sasuke has a magic sword now.
> 
> ...


Considering we have tons of magic weapons, and it took Kishi nearly 500 chapters to explain why Zabuza sword was magical, yes yes I do.



> Kishimoto dedicated a chapter to this.
> 
> Raiton flow wouldn't beat C0 like Water Wall wouldn't beat Great Fire Annihilation because the techniques are of a drastically different level.


Kishi dedicated a chapter to general rules, that doesn't mean their can't be exceptions with certain techniques being weaker to a specific element. In-fact Kishi fucking showed that well before Omoi diffused CO, by having Sasuke diffuse C2 with basic Raiton flow.



> Maybe you think Kishimoto had always thought Deidara was an exception, but why Sasuke opted to refrain from using Chidori Eiso when he had time to summon, genjutsu that summon, and hop in its mouth before Deidara blew up will always mystify me.


Again it's right there on the page he gets up to do something than doubles over from damage unable to respond on time. So I don't need to speculate, the manga shows me. And if anything is Plot Bullshit it's Sasuke surviving CO, not Deidara's bombs being super weak to Raiton which is long established.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Again it's right there on the page he gets up to do something than doubles over from damage unable to respond on time. So I don't need to speculate, the manga shows me.



So you think that Sasuke was physically incapable of using Chidori Eiso to stop Deidara from exploding, even though he summoned, used genjutsu, ran inside the summon's mouth before Deidara exploded.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So you think that Sasuke was physically incapable of using Chidori Eiso to stop Deidara from exploding, even though he summoned, used genjutsu, ran inside the summon's mouth before Deidara exploded.


I don't think anything, the manga shows what happened.

As far the saving himself goes. Using Sharingan Genjutsu probably does take less chakra than Chidori Eisou and summoning manda was probably accomplished by storing chakra in the summoning tatoo for that reason. And I'm assuming the Summon gobbled him up. But even with those explanations in the book, I think anyone being fair can agree that this is the part that should be scrutinized, not Sasuke failing to use Eisou in time.

Also side bar - Do you like ever admit your wrong Rocky or do you just argue for the sake of arguing.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

I admit I'm wrong when I'm actually wrong.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I admit I'm wrong when I'm actually wrong.


Great, so you admit your wrong here, good now where getting somewhere


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Where are where getting


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Where are where getting


Perhaps Where?


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 24, 2015)

> thechickensage said:
> 
> 
> > He was his partner so of course he would know deidara's element
> ...


If we ignore the fact that match up calls for no knowledge, even then it's still not all that difficult to assume that Sasori wouldn't have knowledge on Deidara's element. It's like saying that Deidara would have innate knowledge on Sandaime Kazekage's element.

Well, we can't debate about things he may or may not have, because the list would go on forever, which is why in the DB, it's always limited to what they have shown. If that were the case, then the kazekage puppet would be all but useless against Deidara, if Deidara decided to use his raiton element.



Turrin said:


> Not so much a plot nerf as a character design choice, but yeah.
> 
> Cool and he wasn't comparing Hidan and Kakuzu's loss to Tobi's, therefore the comparison doesn't work. Deidara being special next to Tobi in no way reflects on anyone other than Tobi. End of story.
> 
> This has more to do with the type of Ninja Deidara is and plot bullshit with the entire village just standing around twiddling their thumbs, while he and Gaara did their thing. For example War-Arc Kakashi couldn't solo Sungakuru, so is he weaker than Deidara? How about Itachi?  How about Hebi-Sasuke who outright was proven to be stronger, but couldn't solo a village or even the more powerful MS-Sasuke?  You end up with some pretty strange nonsense if we follow your logic here.


The point I was making that when they all passed, he made a note about Deidara being special while its to relative Tobi; when the others passed, they just went about their business. Thus, if they were special or important enough to matter, he would have mentioned it. 

The ranking accounts for more than strength and who comes out on top in a 1 vs. 1 battle.


Turrin said:


> But I was more speaking towards how likely it is that Deidara's enemies would have Raiton
> 
> Fuck I think every Kage that got an elemental wheel in the Data-book had Raiton, except Rasa:
> 
> Mu, Onoki, Mei, Troll, Gaara, Kakashi, Naruto, Tsunade, Hashirama, Darui, Ei, Sandaime-Raikage, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato all have Raiton.


Having the element and knowing to use it are two different things, out of the list there Kakashi, Darui, the Raikages are the only one who stand a chance. Maybe Oonoki, but even he found it in his heart to trust his own jutsu as opposed to relying on an element that he hasn't even shown.

What I explained above is completely exemplified in the Gaara vs. Deidara fight; Gaara had no way of telling when he fought Deidara what his elemental attacks were. He was far too busy trying to defend himself, save the village and kill Deidara. He will likely do what is comfortable for him. The same goes for the rest of them, Mei, Oonoki, Muu, Gengetsu, Tsunade, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Hiruzen.


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## Matty (Jun 25, 2015)

Deidara is not above Kisame and Sasori... Just want to say that one more time


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

The fact that it's debatable disproves your statement.


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## Turrin (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> If we ignore the fact that match up calls for no knowledge.


Fair enough, if we're speaking about the thread conditions, but I thought we were talking in a general sense.



> even then it's still not all that difficult to assume that Sasori wouldn't have knowledge on Deidara's element. It's like saying that Deidara would have innate knowledge on Sandaime Kazekage's element.


I'm absolutely certain Deidara does know that Sandaime-Kazekage's Satetsu is Jiton. He'd be moronic to not know after spending so much time with Sasori. And that's despite the fact that Sasori doesn't always use Sandaime-Kazekage, while Deidara always uses Kibaku nendo.



> Well, we can't debate about things he may or may not have, because the list would go on forever, which is why in the DB, it's always limited to what they have shown.


Nope that's not how the NBD works.



> If that were the case, then the kazekage puppet would be all but useless against Deidara, if Deidara decided to use his raiton element.


Woah there friend. Kibaku Nendo is not simply weak to Raiton to the normal extent of elemental superiority, it's ultra-fucking weak to Raiton. Usually elemental superiority only comes into play when two techniques of roughy the same level are clashed. But in Kibaku Nendo's case the most basic level of Raiton alteration can counter the strongest Nendo technique [CO]. So even the most basic skill in Raiton will be useful against Deidara, but that's not true in most cases. So unless Raiton is also ultra effective against Jiton, the comparison doesn't work. Plus when was Jiton ever stated to even be weak to Raiton let alone to the extent Nendo is?



> The point I was making that when they all passed, he made a note about Deidara being special while its to relative Tobi; when the others passed, they just went about their business. Thus, if they were special or important enough to matter, he would have mentioned it.


He drew a comparison with Tobi because he could. When the others passed there was no fodder that passed with them. I.E. no one that was easily replaceable to the group passed at the same time they did so there was no reason to make that distinction. 

But fuck Obito the true AL and BZ the true puppet master both talk about how it sucks that they lost so many members and all the same basic shit:
Link removed



> The ranking accounts for more than strength and who comes out on top in a 1 vs. 1 battle.


Your avoiding the question. Is Deidara > War-Arc Kakashi, Edo-Itachi, MS/Hebi-Sasuke, and so on because he can blow up a village under plot driven circumstances or not?



> aving the element and knowing to use it are two different things, out of the list there Kakashi, Darui, the Raikages are the only one who stand a chance. Maybe Oonoki, but even he found it in his heart to trust his own jutsu as opposed to relying on an element that he hasn't even shown.


According to the DB everyone whose listed as having a certain element can use it in battle. So they can all use it. Will they all have as high end techs as Raiton specialist, of course not, but why exactly do they need them when we saw thee most basic application of Raiton was enough to counter thee strongest nendo technique?



> What I explained above is completely exemplified in the Gaara vs. Deidara fight; Gaara had no way of telling when he fought Deidara what his elemental attacks were. He was far too busy trying to defend himself, save the village and kill Deidara.


How do you know Gaara couldn't tell Deidara was using Doton? 



> The same goes for the rest of them, Mei, Oonoki, Muu, Gengetsu, Tsunade, Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato, Hiruzen.


Once the Ambush Squad discussed Deidara being weak to Raiton they decided to factor Omoi's Raiton into their strategy to defeat him, despite Omoi expressing he only knew a little bit of Raiton. So I simply disagree, if these shinobi become aware of Nendo's weakness to Raiton they will use it against Deidara, because it's simply common sense, and it will enable them all to defeat him easier than they otherwise would.



Ryuzaki said:


> The fact that it's debatable disproves your statement.


He's not wrong in the case of Sasori, the manga outright states Sasori > Deidara.


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## Matty (Jun 25, 2015)

Sasori is wayyyyyyyy more versatile of a fighter. He really has no glaring weakness, I hate when people say his heart because literally if you hit any person there besides Kakuzu or Hidan (and other immortals) they are dead, so if anything it just makes it harder. Kisame is an absolute tank, drains chakra, has massive suitons and I don't even have to mention bijuu chakra... If the point of your argument is he has big bombs and C4 then essentially he can beat everyone because of that one jutsu. So in your eyes he should be High kage????

Point I am trying to make is it doesn't seem very debatable. Sasori and Kisame are both well rounded and versatile fighters while Deidara is sort of a 1 trick pony in certain ways. Don't get me wrong he is one of the coolest characters out there and one of my favorites for sure but I think it's stupid to say he is better than those two. I think he is right below them while Sasori and Kisame are about the same level, the tier below Itachi (who really is on Sasori and Kisame's level without Susasno'o )


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Deidara was nerfed to shit.

 Even with Senjutsu Enhancements and 3T Precognition, Sasuke was helpless against C2 and had to devise a plan in order to counter that, however, that doesn't hurt Deidara here as Sharingan users are implied to be far more perceptive than the average person.

 None of the fodder ninja have speed, enhancements, or even reflexes even comparable to reaching Hebi Sasuke. C2 was actually considered a counter for people that can outpace Deidara and Deidara implied it. It already proved it's effectiveness against Sasuke who's far more perceptive than those Fodder Ninja combined as Sasuke couldn't simply outpace the Guided Bombs even if he wanted to.

 Deidara only lost based on PIS. Deidara isn't that arrogant or that shitty to begin with. Those fodder ninja can't keep up with a guy who can easily outpace Team Gai while being Crippled and manage to set off an explosion with a clone that Neji and Kakashi couldn't anticipate. 

 Raiton being an effective counter against Deidara doesn't cut it when it requires one's Raiton to overload Deidara's Explosive Clay with Electricity. With the sheer amount of Doton Chakra within Deidara's more potent explosions, there's no possible way that Raiton is as effective of a counter to Deidara's explosive clay as you're making it out to be Turrin. That's literally like suggesting that a simple Raiton Shape Manipulation from a fodder ninja has a possibility of diffusing Deidara's C3 simply because it's Raiton. There's a reason why Kishimoto had Kakuzu display that element affinities are useless if the incompatible element has far greater power than what the element with the advantage is capable of.

 Link removed

 Even Sasuke implies it. He directly states that he diffused the bombs by * overloading * them with electricity. You can't overload something on the caliber of C2 or C3 with just Raiton incomparable to Sasuke's normal Raiton. It's just common sense.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2015)

Deidara was portrayed as a potential threat to Sannin level.

This was proven to be true when he pushed Hebi Sasuke(Sannin level) to his limits.

Placing him on low kage would be a bit of a stretch. Mid Kage is perfect, as thats where the Sannin fall in(maybe with the exception of Tsunade).


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Done. Feel free to ask for elaboration on any one match.
> 
> (And A is just a good match-up.)
> 
> Sasori, Kakuzu, Mifune, Hanzo, Hidan, etc. all also "S" or Kage levels he'd beat.



 
really hebi sasuke can beat danzo? when MS sasuke who is far superior barely just made it?

how does hebi sasuke deal with izanagi respawn please tell me

btw if u think hebi can beat onoki not sure we can actually discuss without me 

jinton GG is as easy as that match would be 

yes he could beat those people you mentioned sasori and the others but those guys really aren't worth all that much. especially when compared to all the kages I said sasuke cant beat

eg: onoki neg diffs, sasori, kakuzu, mifune and hidan 

possibly 3 of them vs just him and he would still win


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Fair enough, if we're speaking about the thread conditions, but I thought we were talking in a general sense.
> 
> I'm absolutely certain Deidara does know that Sandaime-Kazekage's Satetsu is Jiton. He'd be moronic to not know after spending so much time with Sasori. And that's despite the fact that Sasori doesn't always use Sandaime-Kazekage, while Deidara always uses Kibaku nendo.
> 
> Nope that's not how the NBD works.


We were speaking about it in general, but I wanted to keep it on topic to thread; we could start a different discussion in another thread if you choose to.



Turrin said:


> Woah there friend. Kibaku Nendo is not simply weak to Raiton to the normal extent of elemental superiority, it's ultra-fucking weak to Raiton. Usually elemental superiority only comes into play when two techniques of roughy the same level are clashed. But in Kibaku Nendo's case the most basic level of Raiton alteration can counter the strongest Nendo technique [CO]. So even the most basic skill in Raiton will be useful against Deidara, but that's not true in most cases. So unless Raiton is also ultra effective against Jiton, the comparison doesn't work. Plus when was Jiton ever stated to even be weak to Raiton let alone to the extent Nendo is?


The same principle applies to Jiton, it's a kekkai genkai comprised of wind and earth, whereas Nendo is just earth and lightning. The physics supports it as well, lightning would create a new magnetic field and disrupt the previous one, in essence, terminating the magnetic field supplied by the kazekage's chakra leading to the iron sand falling apart.

FYI, the weakness is not as big of a threat as you make it. Once you immobilize Deidara, you can prevent him from making more with a raiton technique. However, it's going to be difficult for some of the shinobi on this list (mentioned in the thread, not the one you brought up) to manage that. 

The C2 Dragon bombs are going to be difficult to stop for anyone on that list except for perhaps Oonoki since he had the speed to keep up with Deidara. The other guys do not and once more Sasuke who was on the same speed tier as Deidara, got caught in the explosion numerous times.

Pretty sure, if you don't show it, you don't have it.



Turrin said:


> He drew a comparison with Tobi because he could. When the others passed there was no fodder that passed with them. I.E. no one that was easily replaceable to the group passed at the same time they did so there was no reason to make that distinction.
> 
> But fuck Obito the true AL and BZ the true puppet master both talk about how it sucks that they lost so many members and all the same basic shit:
> times


Nagato recognizing his strength was a special note in the manga. None of the other dead Akatsuki members got that, except for perhaps Kisame who was recognized by Obito.



Turrin said:


> Your avoiding the question. Is Deidara > War-Arc Kakashi, Edo-Itachi, MS/Hebi-Sasuke, and so on because he can blow up a village under plot driven circumstances or not?


Now, now, don't go around putting words in my mouth. You are the one that is making that assertion, I haven't made such an argument. The rankings list is my own, based on what I believe, you're just pissed that I have Sasori on the bottom.



Turrin said:


> According to the DB everyone whose listed as having a certain element can use it in battle. So they can all use it. Will they all have as high end techs as Raiton specialist, of course not, but why exactly do they need them when we saw thee most basic application of Raiton was enough to counter thee strongest nendo technique?


I'm not debating they can't use it, I'm stating that *they won't use it* because they'll never figure out Deidara uses an earth-based elemental attack. I'll explain in more detail below.



Turrin said:


> How do you know Gaara couldn't tell Deidara was using Doton?


For a number of reasons, but the most primary, he hardly used the snake hand sign for earth based seals aside from C4 Garuda. The explosive part of his jutsu was detonated with a different hand sign all together which is normally used to start training matches between genin. None of those shinobi that mentioned have the ability to read his hand signs in the amount of duress like Sasuke did, especially at the distance he was, which was all due thanks to sharingan. Deidara went out of his way to hide his hand-signs from Sasuke throughout the battle and only tripped up once when he was about to use Garuda. None of these other shinobi posses a sharingan outside of Kakashi, the Raikages will retain immunity since they are always charged up.



Turrin said:


> Once the Ambush Squad discussed Deidara being weak to Raiton they decided to factor Omoi's Raiton into their strategy to defeat him, despite Omoi expressing he only knew a little bit of Raiton. So I simply disagree, if these shinobi become aware of Nendo's weakness to Raiton they will use it against Deidara, because it's simply common sense, and it will enable them all to defeat him easier than they otherwise would.


Oonoki, has a relationship with Deidara and knows him personally, to the point of where he would know that raiton element is Deidara's biggest weakness (as is for any earth-based shinobi). Yet he decided not to use lightning elemental techniques on two different occasions. In fact, he changed the scenery so that he could specifically use a move he was comfortable with.


			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> Mu, Onoki, Mei, Troll, Gaara, Kakashi, Naruto, Tsunade, Hashirama, Darui, Ei, Sandaime-Raikage, Tobirama, Hiruzen, and Minato all have Raiton.


Of the shinobi you mentioned in your prior post, most of them would hard-pressed to avoiding this, this and yeah, this as well. 

Of course, shinobi like Hashirama, Tobirama, Muu and Gengetsu have alternate ways of winning the match up against Deidara, but the point here is that they aren't going to use the lightning element out of the blue. They would need a reason to and it's easier for them to resort to something they know (e.g. Senjutsu, Hiraishin, Jinton and Clam-based Genjutsu). 

Back to the list in the thread, of those mentioned, only Oonoki stands a chance and that's due to his Jinton and Kakuzu stands a fair chance because he can attack air borne and has shown proficient usage of the lightning element. So, he's also a really good match up with Deidara. But the moment C4 comes out, both of those guys are dead. 

So they would have to finish the match-up prior to him resorting to it.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> really hebi sasuke can beat danzo? when MS sasuke who is far superior barely just made it


He can suppress Hashirama's power and thereby eliminate Izanagi.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Sasori is wayyyyyyyy more versatile of a fighter.



No, he's really not. Deidara fights from underground, the air, has a variety of clones, underground mines, and homing missiles. Sasori is a puppeteer and sits in one spot.​


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> really hebi sasuke can beat danzo? when MS sasuke who is far superior barely just made it?



Does Danzo have his backup to prevent Hebi Sasuke from blitzing him before he unwraps his arm seal? No?​


Icegaze said:


> btw if u think hebi can beat onoki not sure we can actually discuss without me
> 
> jinton GG is as easy as that match would be



If you think "Jinton GG" works on people as fast as Hebi Sasuke then you're mistaken.​


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Does Danzo have his backup to prevent Hebi Sasuke from blitzing him before he unwraps his arm seal? No?​
> 
> 
> If you think "Jinton GG" works on people as fast as Hebi Sasuke then you're mistaken.​



odd danzo without using izanagi was still able to avoid MS sasuke blitz casually. so I don't see why he needs backup 

nice try though 

ps: before u say sasuke was injured danzo was in a worse condition 

loool that would make the likes of A very immune to jinton yet he isn't 

when hebi got the feats of being able to cover flower tree world in a single panel u let me know till then it tags him and neg diffs him


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

^ Deidara avoided him and he's in the same speed tier as Base Sasuke, without Hebi enhancement and CS2.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> odd danzo without using izanagi was still able to avoid MS sasuke blitz casually.



Side-stepping Sasuke once after Sasuke had been spamming Susano'o and Amaterasu all day isn't the same thing as consistently evading Hebi Sasuke's shunshin-blade blitz for minutes on end.

And if you recall, a few seconds after he side-stepped Sasuke the first time, Sasuke had put his Chidori spear through his chest. Danzo hasn't shown any special speed or reflex, unlike Hebi Sasuke.​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> odd danzo without using izanagi was still able to avoid MS sasuke blitz casually. so I don't see why he needs backup



 MS Sasuke never attempted to blitz him. He was in free-fall and resorted to a frontal assault on Danzo which Danzo responded quite well. Both struck each other simultaneously with Danzo being able to afford get hit thanks to Izanagi.

 However, there are implications that Sasuke couldn't simply overpower Danzo in Physical Speed or Taijutsu such as Danzo being able to evade Susano'o or being able to move roughly at the same speed Sasuke can during clashes or even after Sasuke countered his Izanagi.




> ps: before u say sasuke was injured danzo was in a worse condition



 He was?



> when hebi got the feats of being able to cover flower tree world in a single panel u let me know till then it tags him and neg diffs him



 Hebi Sasuke does have CS2, but the impact it has on one's reserves could suggest that he can't outlast Izanagi. Then again, MS Sasuke did it while suffering immense strain, but that could've had something to do with Sasuke awakening stronger chakra within his brain thanks to the awakening of the Mangekyo.

 I agree though, I can't see Hebi Sasuke defeating Danzo though Sick Itachi was implied to be superior to Danzo which Hebi Sasuke performed quite well against, so ...


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> On the other hand, "Jinton GG" Sasuke, Itachi, Bee, etc. You have a very warped concept of what characters and their techniques can and cannot accomplish in situations.[/indent]



 I agree. Jinton GG arguments are honestly ridiculous. That never at all once happened in the manga, Sasuke has Precognition which allows him to detect the Chakra build-up, and the immense amount of Elemental Recomposition and Chakra Released merely makes the attack ineffective as it not only takes a toll on Onoki's stamina, but it renders him mostly stationary.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 25, 2015)

That's actually hilarious considering the Ama GG, Totsuka GG, Tsukuyomi GG arguments some of you guys makes. It's like, you don't even practice what you preach when it comes to your faves.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Most fans would probably consider Muu having Invisibility + Jinton GG


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That's actually hilarious considering the Ama GG, Totsuka GG, Tsukuyomi GG arguments some of you guys makes. It's like, you don't even practice what you preach when it comes to your faves.





 Onoki's an old fart while Itachi's the Solo King of existence. Totally incomparable. The fact that you would compare the 2 is utter blasphemy and you should be ashamed.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Side-stepping Sasuke once after Sasuke had been spamming Susano'o and Amaterasu all day isn't the same thing as consistently evading Hebi Sasuke's shunshin-blade blitz for minutes on end.
> 
> And if you recall, a few seconds after he side-stepped Sasuke the first time, Sasuke had put his Chidori spear through his chest. Danzo hasn't shown any special speed or reflex, unlike Hebi Sasuke.​



loool 
he didn't just side step him he side stepped him so bad he got to Karin without sasuke being able to do anything about it 

cheap excuse danzo had been fighting just as long and as hard as sasuke 

yh all it takes is onoki getting a shot in once and sasuke is neg diff'd 

nice try though


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 25, 2015)

Onoki being an old fart is canceled out by Itachi having ninja AIDS


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Onoki being an old fart is canceled out by Itachi having ninja AIDS



 Kishimoto had to figure out a way to nerf Itachi because he truly was too powerful while Onoki is just an old shit who complains about back problems. Give Onoki Ninja AIDS and he instantly gets neg-diffed and fades out of existance.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> MS Sasuke never attempted to blitz him. He was in free-fall and resorted to a frontal assault on Danzo which Danzo responded quite well. Both struck each other simultaneously with Danzo being able to afford get hit thanks to Izanagi.
> 
> However, there are implications that Sasuke couldn't simply overpower Danzo in Physical Speed or Taijutsu such as Danzo being able to evade Susano'o or being able to move roughly at the same speed Sasuke can during clashes or even after Sasuke countered his Izanagi.




Link removed

fan bias much



> He was?



yes Karin had healed sasuke a little. danzo wasn't healed at all. nice try buddy



> Hebi Sasuke does have CS2, but the impact it has on one's reserves could suggest that he can't outlast Izanagi. Then again, MS Sasuke did it while suffering immense strain, but that could've had something to do with Sasuke awakening stronger chakra within his brain thanks to the awakening of the Mangekyo.



outlast 
he dies on first respawn casually and I mean casually. no effort there at all 



> I agree though, I can't see Hebi Sasuke defeating Danzo though Sick Itachi was implied to be superior to Danzo which Hebi Sasuke performed quite well against, so ...


[/QUOTE]


lol where was itachi implied to be superior ?

also ever heard of character match ups some characters are good against others simply put. Onoki and minato on the same level yet obito will neg diff onoki and loose to minato


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That's actually hilarious considering the Ama GG, Totsuka GG, Tsukuyomi GG arguments



Unlike Jinton, Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi have no travel time.

And the Totsuka has _much_ better speed feats than Jinton.

Given Nagato didn't react.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kishimoto had to figure out a way to nerf Itachi because he truly was too powerful while Onoki is just an old shit who complains about back problems. Give Onoki Ninja AIDS and he instantly gets neg-diffed and fades out of existance.


I'd say give Itachi old age and see how he fairs but given the apparent lack of a cure for ninja AIDS that's probably unrealistic anyway 

@Strat. I may or may not feel like giving a serious reply to that latter. We'll see.


----------



## Matty (Jun 25, 2015)

@strat Sasori has clones, fights from inside hiruko, creates some of the most potent poison in the manga, Has 3rd Kazekage along with 100 others, has his puppet body which is loaded with poison and traps. He's smarter than Deidara and Iron sand can be molded into nearly any shape and he is nearly immortal. That is 3 layers to get through to kill him while deidara. He also shits on Deidara in terms of feats and hype so I would imagine Sasori is stronger.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> @strat Sasori has clones, fights from inside hiruko, creates some of the most potent poison in the manga, Has 3rd Kazekage along with 100 others, has his puppet body which is loaded with poison and traps. He's smarter than Deidara and Iron sand can be molded into nearly any shape and he is nearly immortal. That is 3 layers to get through to kill him while deidara. He also shits on Deidara in terms of feats and hype so I would imagine Sasori is stronger.



care to show me this clone you speak of?
fan fic much


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Link removed
> 
> fan bias much



 Yet Sasuke wasn't attempting to blitz.





> yes Karin had healed sasuke a little. danzo wasn't healed at all. nice try buddy



 He wouldn't have needed healing if he had went into the fight completely fresh. 





> outlast
> he dies on first respawn casually and I mean casually. no effort there at all



 Not exactly. Hebi Sasuke was more than capable of detecting one's presence even without his Sharingan hence why he discovered Tobi sneaking around the bushes. MS Sasuke was merely caught off-guard based on the fact that at this point, he was more fixated on revenge and was more influenced by his hatred which clouded his judgement. Hebi Sasuke however is more calm, collected, and thus, has better judgement which is made clear when Sasuke relies on attaining the White Snake's Powers in order to overpower Itachi as deemed himself inferior to Itachi prior to this whereas Sasuke infiltrated the Kage Summit in search of Danzo despite all of the Kages being gathered upon that spot.



> lol where was itachi implied to be superior ?



 Itachi infilitrated Konoha to threaten Danzo and ensure him that he was still alive during the period of which he was Sick. 



> also ever heard of character match ups some characters are good against others simply put. Onoki and minato on the same level yet obito will neg diff onoki and loose to minato



 Sasuke's far more Perceptive and has Katon which ensures an elemental advantage against Danzo. It's Sasuke's Perception that allowed him to discover Danzo's weakness and counter Danzo effectively without Danzo even noticing it.

 So, Sasuke's simply a good match-up and Sasuke managing to perceive the moments where Itachi utilizes his 3T Genjutsu suggests it.

 But you're wrong, Obito wouldn't lose to Minato had he not been pressured in ending the fight quickly.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet Sasuke wasn't attempting to blitz.



 so what he walked at danzo and said please danzo don't move let me put a hole in you?

seriously dude!! 





> He wouldn't have needed healing if he had went into the fight completely fresh.




danzo wasn't fresh either and was worse off which was my point. 




> Not exactly. Hebi Sasuke was more than capable of detecting one's presence even without his Sharingan hence why he discovered Tobi sneaking around the bushes. MS Sasuke was merely caught off-guard based on the fact that at this point, he was more fixated on revenge and was more influenced by his hatred which clouded his judgement. Hebi Sasuke however is more calm, collected, and thus, has better judgement which is made clear when Sasuke relies on attaining the White Snake's Powers in order to overpower Itachi as deemed himself inferior to Itachi prior to this whereas Sasuke infiltrated the Kage Summit in search of Danzo despite all of the Kages being gathered upon that spot.



sorry are u saying sasuke is a sensor now cuz he got sharingan really? duuude!!!

MS sasuke needed carrying to call out to him that danzo is behind him. 

BULLSHIT!!! being calm doesn't give people sensing abilities. he wont know danzo is behind him simply because he is calm you are trolling hard. 

guess every calm person is a sensor



> Itachi infilitrated Konoha to threaten Danzo and ensure him that he was still alive during the period of which he was Sick.



and are we sure danzo had izanagi at that point? what condition was danzo in?



> Sasuke's far more Perceptive and has Katon which ensures an elemental advantage against Danzo. It's Sasuke's Perception that allowed him to discover Danzo's weakness and counter Danzo effectively without Danzo even noticing it.



being perceptive and having katon doesn't prevent a kunai to the back of the skull which is what would happen to hebi sasuke. 

its susanoo that allowed MS sasuke to last long enough to discover danzo weakness 

nice try though



> So, Sasuke's simply a good match-up and Sasuke managing to perceive the moments where Itachi utilizes his 3T Genjutsu suggests it.



yh your fanfic sasuke who somehow is calm enough to develop sensing skills. kishi version however gets neg diff'd



> But you're wrong, Obito wouldn't lose to Minato had he not been pressured in ending the fight quickly.



 minato cant loose to obito. whats obito going to do? everything he has in his arsenal is much too slow to hit minato 

good luck touching minato then using kamui wrap esp when minato starts spamming kunai and using clones

kishi made it pretty clear who was superior in that fight

btw I guess obito wasn't calm since he didn't magically develop sensing skills like you imply hebi sasuke can


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

Don't forget that Oonoki at his age, was able to keep up with Deidara (that's at the very least Tier 4.5 level of speed).


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 25, 2015)

Sasuke had sharingan turned off and his vision was pretty bad at that point. Zoom in on his eye clearly emphasis that. Factor in exhaustion and his wounds, yeah, what Danzo did wasn't so impressive.

We also know, charging in with chidori sans sharingan isn't a good idea.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so what he walked at danzo and said please danzo don't move let me put a hole in you?
> 
> seriously dude!!



 Yeah, he never attempted to blitz Danzo because he had to maintain eye contact with Danzo in order to deceive him into resorting to a frontal assault once the time limit with Izanagi expired.








> danzo wasn't fresh either and was worse off which was my point.



 Losing 1 Sharingan doesn't compare to suffering from fatigue from the Mangekyo, still being injured, and not having Chakra and Stamina completely restored. Tobi even illustrates how having Multiple Sharingan is meaningless when confronting an Uchiha with the Mangekyo, so in that match-up, losing 1 Sharingan was simply insignificant. 





> sorry are u saying sasuke is a sensor now cuz he got sharingan really? duuude!!!



 Sharingan users are shown to be far more perceptive than most people in the manga, so hence why Sasuke managed to detect Tobi sneaking around the bushes. I never claimed he was a sensor, but many people such as Itachi and Kaashi have the means of being able to feel one's chakra and even react to an opponent based on the subtle vibrations of their movements. Sharingan users perceive the movements people make hence why Sasuke has a better time being able to detect if someone's attempting to blindside him.



> MS sasuke needed carrying to call out to him that danzo is behind him.



 Great. MS Sasuke =/= Hebi Sasuke.



> BULLSHIT!!! being calm doesn't give people sensing abilities. he wont know danzo is behind him simply because he is calm you are trolling hard.





 Never claimed that. 



> guess every calm person is a sensor








> and are we sure danzo had izanagi at that point? what condition was danzo in?



 Yes. Orochimaru was heavily involved with the Root long before Itachi even infiltrated Konoha and Danzo clearly had signs of wielding multiple Sharingan based on the fact that he still showed signs of having his arm wrapped in bandages during Orochimaru's involvement with the Root as well as his Right Eye being wrapped up in bandages as well.

 Clear sign Danzo likely had Izanagi.



> being perceptive and having katon doesn't prevent a kunai to the back of the skull which is what would happen to hebi sasuke.



 It actually does as he'd be able to detect Danzo's location through the subtle vibrations in the air caused by his movements. Even then, Danzo attempted to blindside Sasuke with Futon yet it proved to be ineffective in even damaging Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke has Cursed Seal Enhancements which allow him to take flight and outright counter that.

 Katon has the Elemental Advantage over Futon. That in itself implies Sasuke's a bad match-up for Danzo considering he's a superior wielder of the Sharingan and thus, has greater perception and Precognition as well as both function as close-mid range fighters which puts Hebi Sasuke at an advantage.



> its susanoo that allowed MS sasuke to last long enough to discover danzo weakness



 It's not. It's Sasuke's intelligence and perception that allowed him to discover the tricks to Danzo's Izanagi similar to how he outplayed Deidara who happened outplay Kakashi.




> yh your fanfic sasuke who somehow is calm enough to develop sensing skills. kishi version however gets neg diff'd









> minato cant loose to obito. whats obito going to do? everything he has in his arsenal is much too slow to hit minato



 you dont reed the manga do you? you should go do that.

 Obito stated that the reason Minato escaped from his grasp was because he didn't absorb him the instant he grabbed him. Had he and we wouldn't even have a Naruto. 



> good luck touching minato then using kamui wrap esp when minato starts spamming kunai and using clones



 Wow, you must be reading an entirely different manga then.



> kishi made it pretty clear who was superior in that fight



 Yeah, and he made it quite clear how Obito had superior S/T ninjutsu and could have absorbed Minato had he absorbed him the instant he grabbed him. It even took Minato some time to register what had happened.



> btw I guess obito wasn't calm since he didn't magically develop sensing skills like you imply hebi sasuke can


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## Sadgoob (Jun 25, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke had sharingan turned off and his vision was pretty bad at that point. Zoom in on his eye clearly emphasis that. Factor in exhaustion and his wounds, yeah, what Danzo did wasn't so impressive.



Yep.​


Ryuzaki said:


> Don't forget that Oonoki at his age, was able to keep up with Deidara (that's at the very least Tier 4.5 level of speed).



Deidara specifically said Onoki _got faster_ and was actually able to keep up with him. This is because his flight technique is a jutsu, and doesn't have to do with his physical attributes.

It should be noted, however, that flight is _much_ slower than the shunshin jutsu. They're not even in the same world. But flight is valuable for tactical retreat (Deidara vs Sasuke.)​


----------



## Matty (Jun 25, 2015)

Sasori uses a sand clone in his first fight with Kankuro. Pretty sure it was in the manga, guaranteed in the anime. If needed I'll get scans. If it is anime only then my bad


Edit: @Icegaze

I gotta start quoting.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 25, 2015)

matty1991, it's not in the manga, that was anime only. Sasori really has no elemental jutsu, so it's hard to say if he could use an elemental clone.


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## Matty (Jun 25, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> matty1991, it's not in the manga, that was anime only. Sasori really has no elemental jutsu, so it's hard to say if he could use an elemental clone.



Ahhhh that's my bad. Yea I could understand the claim that Deidara is more versatile then.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, he never attempted to blitz Danzo because he had to maintain eye contact with Danzo in order to deceive him into resorting to a frontal assault once the time limit with Izanagi expired.



so in short a bull shit excuse because danzo casually avoided him. why not attempt to blitz someone you are trying to kill?

you are too desperate its funny









> Losing 1 Sharingan doesn't compare to suffering from fatigue from the Mangekyo, still being injured, and not having Chakra and Stamina completely restored. Tobi even illustrates how having Multiple Sharingan is meaningless when confronting an Uchiha with the Mangekyo, so in that match-up, losing 1 Sharingan was simply insignificant.



karin healed him. danzo got no such treatment danzo was worse off simple as that





> Sharingan users are shown to be far more perceptive than most people in the manga, so hence why Sasuke managed to detect Tobi sneaking around the bushes. I never claimed he was a sensor, but many people such as Itachi and Kaashi have the means of being able to feel one's chakra and even react to an opponent based on the subtle vibrations of their movements. Sharingan users perceive the movements people make hence why Sasuke has a better time being able to detect if someone's attempting to blindside him.



please show me sasuke detecting someone behind him. ill wait 

cuz MS needed karin to show out for him to locate danzo. perception wise MS>>>>>>>>>>sharingan

please show me scans of this subtle vibration you speak of. cuz u made that up as a sasuke fan girl 




> Great. MS Sasuke =/= Hebi Sasuke.



true MS>>>>>>>hebi sasuke. which is my point




> Never claimed that.



you did. Mr subtle vibrations never shown in the manga



> Yes. Orochimaru was heavily involved with the Root long before Itachi even infiltrated Konoha and Danzo clearly had signs of wielding multiple Sharingan based on the fact that he still showed signs of having his arm wrapped in bandages during Orochimaru's involvement with the Root as well as his Right Eye being wrapped up in bandages as well.



so in short desperate speculation 



> Clear sign Danzo likely had Izanagi.



see above



> It actually does as he'd be able to detect Danzo's location through the subtle vibrations in the air caused by his movements. Even then, Danzo attempted to blindside Sasuke with Futon yet it proved to be ineffective in even damaging Sasuke and Hebi Sasuke has Cursed Seal Enhancements which allow him to take flight and outright counter that.



one scan of this subtle vibration please



> Katon has the Elemental Advantage over Futon. That in itself implies Sasuke's a bad match-up for Danzo considering he's a superior wielder of the Sharingan and thus, has greater perception and Precognition as well as both function as close-mid range fighters which puts Hebi Sasuke at an advantage.



so sasuke is good against every futton user in the manga. KCm naruto got futton and Sm naruto. guess sasuke can take them on 



> It's not. It's Sasuke's intelligence and perception that allowed him to discover the tricks to Danzo's Izanagi similar to how he outplayed Deidara who happened outplay Kakashi.



he wont have if he didnt last long enough thanks to susanoo 




>



 i am speakign to a troll





> you dont reed the manga do you? you should go do that.



says Mr subtle vibration . 



> Obito stated that the reason Minato escaped from his grasp was because he didn't absorb him the instant he grabbed him. Had he and we wouldn't even have a Naruto.



yet u forget he snuck up on minato to begin with. how did that go for obito when he attempted a frontal attack? he got trolled simple as that 



> Wow, you must be reading an entirely different manga then.



says Mr subtle vibration 



> Yeah, and he made it quite clear how Obito had superior S/T ninjutsu and could have absorbed Minato had he absorbed him the instant he grabbed him. It even took Minato some time to register what had happened.



superior but slower. as obito lost the battle of speed



>



 troll on buddy


----------



## Nikushimi (Jun 26, 2015)

Deidara is high Kage-level, mid Akatsuki-level.



matty1991 said:


> Deidara starts next to C2 Dragon
> 
> Kakuzu



Kakuzu gets bomb-spammed until Deidara ups the chakra concentration to C4 and kills him.



> Gaara (Not guarding Suna)



Deidara dodges Gaara's sand and weaves C1 bombs into his Absolute Defense. When Gaara defends with it--BOOM. Same as in the manga. No knowledge means nothing changes. No Suna means no desert sand, that means no C3, and that means no middle man.



> Mei Terumi



Guided C1 spam blows her to pieces.



> Sasori



Deidara admitted Sasori was probably stronger; CO could make it a draw, but it's a last resort and not likely to be pulled off in a fight with no intel against a poison user.



> Danzo



No knowledge might favor Danzo via surprise Izanagi respawn kill. But Deidara can win if he doesn't get duped by that. Izanagi might frustrate him to the point of suicide bombing, though.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so in short a bull shit excuse because danzo casually avoided him. why not attempt to blitz someone you are trying to kill?



 So in short, attempting a frontal assault when you know your opponent is also initiating a frontal assault is attempting to blitz? You did nothing to refute what I said. Sasuke couldn't attempt to blitz Danzo as he had to initiate contact with Danzo to trap him into a genjutsu.

 Of course, dodge points. It's certainly why no one takes you seriously here. 

 Do you even know what "blitzing" is?




> karin healed him. danzo got no such treatment danzo was worse off simple as that



 Had Sasuke started fresh, he wouldn't have needed it in the first place. 





> please show me sasuke detecting someone behind him. ill wait



 Sasuke detected Tobi as well as the fact that someone less perceptive than Sasuke: Kakuzu, mentioned how Kakashi managed to sneak up behind him without making a sound implying that Kakuzu's highly adept and was meant to compliment Kakashi's skill in assassination. Danzo has no such feats and with Sasuke's perception, manages to detect Danzo's movement from sound.



> cuz MS needed karin to show out for him to locate danzo. perception wise MS>>>>>>>>>>sharingan



 Sasuke was entirely blood-lusted, so he wasn't attempting to calmy analyze the situation which is a trait more compatible with Hebi Sasuke.



> please show me scans of this subtle vibration you speak of. cuz u made that up as a sasuke fan girl



 Explain to me how he caught Tobi sneaking around the bushes. 




> true MS>>>>>>>hebi sasuke. which is my point



 Hebi Sasuke's simply a more well-equipped in handling Danzo compared to MS Sasuke. 




> you did. Mr subtle vibrations never shown in the manga



 It actually does. Kakuzu and Kakashi managed to do so and notably, that was well before Kakashi received Obito's Sharingan.





> so in short desperate speculation









> see above









> one scan of this subtle vibration please



 Gaiden Kakashi managed to do so along with Kakuzu, both lacking the perceptive capabilities Sasuke has thanks to his experience with the Sharingan.




> so sasuke is good against every futton user in the manga. KCm naruto got futton and Sm naruto. guess sasuke can take them on



 No, because Naruto's Futon are more potent than Danzo's which was easily countered by a Fatigued Sasuke's Katon.




> he wont have if he didnt last long enough thanks to susanoo



 Good thing CS2 Sasuke has Enhanced Durability and Flight along with Manda. 




> i am speakign to a troll





 Now you know how I feel every single time I reply to you.




> says Mr subtle vibration .



 Yet you haven't refuted my argument. 





> yet u forget he snuck up on minato to begin with. how did that go for obito when he attempted a frontal attack? he got trolled simple as that



 Why wouldn't you? Catching your opponent's blindspot is clearly more effective, but it doesn't give us any indication of inferiority unless you think Kakuzu blindsiding Shikamaru indicates Kakuzu's inferiority here.





> says Mr subtle vibration









> superior but slower. as obito lost the battle of speed



 Wouldn't have happened in the first place had Obito absorbed him the instant he grabbed him.




> troll on buddy



 Good thing I'm not the one who speaks some slangish shit and sounds like an idiot in any debate he gets involved in.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 26, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > So in short, attempting a frontal assault when you know your opponent is also initiating a frontal assault is attempting to blitz? You did nothing to refute what I said. Sasuke couldn't attempt to blitz Danzo as he had to initiate contact with Danzo to trap him into a genjutsu.
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> define blitz sir troll.  nothing about genjutus in the scan i posted. did u even look at it? sasuke attempted chidori. danzo side stepped him CASUALLY



 Blitzing is when one attempts to move at nearly maximum speed in order to strike their opponent before they can perceive their location. Someone suffering from immense physical and mental fatigue isn't capable of even attempting to blitz.

 Conditions also stacked Sasuke in a bad position to blitz in the first place considering Izanagi which Sasuke could only effectively counter with a properly executed Genjutsu. Sasuke's Genjutsu requires eye-contact, but how could one forceeye-contact with someone when they're attempting to out-speed them before they can even perceive what's going on? That doesn't even make sense, not to mention using a Genjutsu + Attempting to blitz hasn't happened even in once in the manga. 



> as does MS sasuke. yet needed karin to call out danzo location



 Only once and even then, this was because Sasuke was suffering immense fatigue, therefore his guard was down. Hebi Sasuke will not be suffering from immense fatigue, so he won't be countered by a Weak Futon. 




> odd pretty sure susanoo durability is far superior didnt stop danzo from harming sasuke did it



 Again, MS Sasuke wouldn't have required Susano'o in the first place had he not been more concerned about testing his abilities and over-exerted himself constantly which caused his physical stats to tank severely to the point where he can't engage in CQC with Danzo while he could with Killer Bee and even then, he wasn't entirely fresh with Bee either.

 Don't tell me you truly believe Danzo > Killer Bee in reflexes or I might actually have to make a spite thread just for you. 




> yes it is. but doesnt stop the fact that a blind side attack is easier to pull off. and obito couldnt hope to pull it off in a frontal attack. unless u saying all ninja should be coward and launch surprise attacks



 Didn't refute my example, so Shikamaru >> Kakuzu confirmed. 




> which wouldnt have happened if obito didnt sneak up on minato. had minato known minato was attacking him obito wont have come close to touching him.



 Striking one's blindspots doesn't indicate inferiority. SM Jiraiya did it against one Path despite being implied to be physically superior to any of the 3 Paths in a 1v1 situation. Even Minato attempted to blindside Young Bee, so unless you're suggesting that Young Bee can handle Minato in a fight, I suggest you drop this point.




> look forward to my other thread as i expose your troll



 All right. I can assure you that you misinterpreted what I stated. Though really, this proves your stupidity as you can't properly refute my points and thus, heavily rely on others to ridicule someone who hasn't even read their argument in the first place. I truly thought you changed, especially when you conceded to my thoughts on what Tsukyomi's capabilities were, but I guess not. You still retain that condescending attitude and constantly degrade other's opinions instead of maintaining an open-mind and actually process what they're trying to convey before you post.

 But I know that this kind of attitude of your's won't change, so I'm just going to ignore you from now on.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Blitzing is when one attempts to move at nearly maximum speed in order to strike their opponent before they can perceive their location. Someone suffering from immense physical and mental fatigue isn't capable of even attempting to blitz.
> 
> Conditions also stacked Sasuke in a bad position to blitz in the first place considering Izanagi which Sasuke could only effectively counter with a properly executed Genjutsu. Sasuke's Genjutsu requires eye-contact, but how could one forceeye-contact with someone when they're attempting to out-speed them before they can even perceive what's going on? That doesn't even make sense, not to mention using a Genjutsu + Attempting to blitz hasn't happened even in once in the manga.
> 
> ...



 
So Sasuke walked at Danzo with a chidori I underatand 
Good one 

He didn't dash at him and show surprise when Danzo outsped him

Too much butthurt buddy


----------



## Turrin (Jun 28, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The same principle applies to Jiton, it's a kekkai genkai comprised of wind and earth, whereas Nendo is just earth and lightning. The physics supports it as well, lightning would create a new magnetic field and disrupt the previous one, in essence, terminating the magnetic field supplied by the kazekage's chakra leading to the iron sand falling apart.



We’ve never seen an elemental fusion be weak to an element that is opposing the ones it’s made up of. In-fact we directly saw Fire-Release do nothing against Ice-Release, despite Ice-Release being made up of Wind + Water, with Wind being weak to Fire:


Now you could say that Fire-Release isn’t strong against Ice-Release as Ice-Release is also part Water, which is strong against Fire. But than as of DBIV Jiton is likely to be Earth + Wind, and Wind is strong against Lightning, so it also shouldn’t be weak to Raiton.

However personally I do not think any of the Elemental Fusions possess elemental weaknesses, because during the war there were many shinobi throwing around elemental fusion techniques and not once did anyone attempt to counter them through exploiting elemental weakness. 

Beyond that I think you’d agree that one element being weak to another, does not mean as big of a weakness as Kibaku Nendo has to Raiton. After all it’s not like a single Fodder sized Suiton was able to counter Madara’s Katons.  Rather it took a whole platoon of Fodder using Suiton to counter one of Madara’s smaller Katons. Versus Omoi’s basic Raiton flow counter thee strongest Kibaku Nendo technique and Sasuke stated that if Deidara’s bombs are hit by any Raiton whatsoever they are rendered useless:

Sasuke, “Any of your bombs that receive a blow from ration will no longer explode…”



> The physics supports it as well.


I think bringing physics into a Naruto discussion is a mistake for a number of reasons. Not the least of which being that Ninjutsu is governed by magic and mysticism rather than science as well as Kishimoto consistently showing a reckless abandon for physics throughout the entire manga. So honestly I do not take such arguments seriously.



> FYI, the weakness is not as big of a threat as you make it. Once you immobilize Deidara, you can prevent him from making more with a raiton technique. However, it's going to be difficult for some of the shinobi on this list (mentioned in the thread, not the one you brought up) to manage that.



It’s not about immobilizing Deidara, it’s about the fact that any of his bombs can be diffused by attacking them with any Raiton ability. This offers Raiton users a huge advantage when facing Deidara as they can use less chakra consuming minor Raitons to counter Bombs they otherwise would need much more effort to counter, if they were capable of countering them at all.



> The C2 Dragon bombs are going to be difficult to stop for anyone on that list except for perhaps Oonoki since he had the speed to keep up with Deidara.



Sasuke countered a C2 Explosive by channeling such a small ration current through his sword that it was invisible to the naked eye:




If Sasuke can counter C2 like that. There is no reason why basic Raiton-Flow wouldn’t be enough to diffuse any C2 bomb. 



> Sasuke who was on the same speed tier as Deidara, got caught in the explosion numerous times.



Sasuke had yet to figure out Raiton could counter Deidara’s Bombs. Otherwise there would have been nothing stopping him from channeling a bit of Raiton into his Shuriken and just throwing them at the C2 Missiles to diffuse them.



> Pretty sure, if you don't show it, you don't have it.



If we are told someone has something or if there’s a good amount of evidence that they likely have something, I find it unfair to not account for it in some fashion. As at that point your not trying to find out who would actually win, just trying to win an argument.



> Nagato recognizing his strength was a special note in the manga. None of the other dead Akatsuki members got that, except for perhaps Kisame who was recognized by Obito.



I’m sorry, but this is just a perversion of the text. The Raw text does not have him acknowledging Deidara’s strength above any of the other members being referenced here. Again all it says is that Deidara’s loss would be felt more than Tobi’s. Anything else is literally factually incorrect.



> Now, now, don't go around putting words in my mouth. You are the one that is making that assertion, I haven't made such an argument. The rankings list is my own, based on what I believe, you're just pissed that I have Sasori on the bottom.



I’m not putting words in your mouth. You suggested Deidara was better than other Akatsuki members because he could blow up Sungakuru, while they could not. To which I ask than why is he not better than Itachi, MS-Sasuke, Kakashi, etc… who also could not blow up a village? It’s a very simple question and I would like an answer.



> For a number of reasons, but the most primary, he hardly used the snake hand sign for earth based seals aside from C4 Garuda.



Sasuke, “So far all of your seals have been doton”



> None of those shinobi that mentioned have the ability to read his hand signs in the amount of duress like Sasuke did, especially at the distance he was, which was all due thanks to sharingan.



Sasuke only cited that Sharingan allowed him to read Deidara’s seals despite their speed, there was no mention of duress or any other factors impeding him:

Sasuke, “….No matter how fast they are these eyes see all”



> Deidara went out of his way to hide his hand-signs from Sasuke throughout the battle



Sasuke specifically lectured Deidara about how his hand-seals were in plain sight and how Deidara should have hid them. 

Sasuke, “When your….opponent is the Sharingan it’s the basics that you should hide the weaving of ones seals”

So the manga directly contradicts this.



> Oonoki, has a relationship with Deidara and knows him personally, to the point of where he would know that raiton element is Deidara's biggest weakness (as is for any earth-based shinobi). Yet he decided not to use lightning elemental techniques on two different occasions. In fact, he changed the scenery so that he could specifically use a move he was comfortable with.



This is very simply because Onoki’s objective was not to defend Deidara’s bombs, he was the one on offense and due to anger was not pulling any punches and opting to go right for Jinton to obliterate Deidara. If there was an instance where Deidara could put Onoki on defense and he needed to deal with bombs, I see no reason why he would not use Raiton to diffuse them, just like the ambush squad did. 



> Of the shinobi you mentioned in your prior post, most of them would hard-pressed to avoiding this, this and yeah, this as well.



If they have knowledge I see no reason why they couldn’t simply flow some ration through a weapon and throw it at the missiles to diffuse them before they exploded. And the C1 Bomb they don’t even need to avoid as it did nothing to Deidara but push him out of the way of Sasuke’s attack, despite him being in point blank range.

If they don’t have knowledge, than most of them are still likely to be capable of dealing with it and by your own admission basically. 

You already said Kakashi, Ei, and Sandaime could earlier in the post. You already omitted Onoki, and later said Mu, Hashirama, Tobirama, and Gengetsu can one way or another. I don’t think your going to argue that Minato and Naruto can’t avoid C2. And I don’t think you’ll dispute that Gaara can certainly block C2 with his sand given his feats against Joki Boi in the War-Arc. I also doubt you’ll dispute Tsunade’s Katsuya’s ability to defend C2, if it could defend CST. So that leaves:

Old-Hiruzen and Mei.

Old-Hiruzen is the foremost Ninjutsu expert in the entire manga, and has shown a great deal of knowledge about Iwagakuru’s Ninjutsu, being able to identify Onoki’s Jinton. So there’s a decent chance he’ll identify Nendo the moment he see’s Deidara use it. But even assuming that is not the case it basically comes down whether the professor with his roof tier hand-seal knowledge, be incapable of identifying Deidara’s 3.5 speed hand-seals as Doton seals before C2 comes out, which I personally find pretty unbelievable.

Mei is the only one that might struggle with C2, but she has her giant suitons that could perhaps divert the bombs and Futton/Youton that may melt before they explode. 



> Of course, shinobi like Hashirama, Tobirama, Muu and Gengetsu have alternate ways of winning the match up against Deidara, but the point here is that they aren't going to use the lightning element out of the blue. They would need a reason to and it's easier for them to resort to something they know (e.g. Senjutsu, Hiraishin, Jinton and Clam-based Genjutsu).



My point isn’t them using it out of the blue. My point is that I believe most of them are likely to have knowledge or figure out Nendo is Doton at some point in the match. Deidara uses his hand-seals in plain sight according to Sasuke and his seal speed is only a 3.5. It’s also common sense that clay jutsu might be Doton based. So I don’t see it being hard for top notch ninja like Kages to eventually figure this out, Sharingan or no Sharingan. And this is not to mention team battles where the chances of someone having knowledge on nendo increases. 



> But the moment C4 comes out, both of those guys are dead.



Pretty sure Kakuzu doesn’t even breath considering his lack of well lungs. Against Onoki we saw how that goes, he tries to throw C4 at a Jinton beam and both him as well as C4 get atomized. 

Given the conditions he only really stands a chance against Mei. But that relies on him getting airborn against Mei’s massive Suiton, not being Futton GG’d, and Mei not figuring out Nendo’s weaknes, meaning that Mei still has plenty of avenues for victory.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2015)

*Part 1*



Turrin said:


> We?ve never seen an elemental fusion be weak to an element that is opposing the ones it?s made up of. In-fact we directly saw Fire-Release do nothing against Ice-Release, despite Ice-Release being made up of Wind + Water, with Wind being weak to Fire:
> 
> Now you could say that Fire-Release isn?t strong against Ice-Release as Ice-Release is also part Water, which is strong against Fire. But than as of DBIV Jiton is likely to be Earth + Wind, and Wind is strong against Lightning, so it also shouldn?t be weak to Raiton.
> 
> ...


Electricity disrupts the magnetic field and besides both techniques are kekkai genkai, if they truly couldn't be stopped by a single element then this would not have worked against Deidara. 


Turrin said:


> I think bringing physics into a Naruto discussion is a mistake for a number of reasons. Not the least of which being that Ninjutsu is governed by magic and mysticism rather than science as well as Kishimoto consistently showing a reckless abandon for physics throughout the entire manga. So honestly I do not take such arguments seriously.


Kazekage works on magentism, running a raiton element through it, would disrupt the magnetic field created by his chakra. It's an actual property of lightning techniques e.g. electromagnetism, just in the same manner as water would conduct electricity due to the polar bonds present within the water. Moreover, the jutsu is still comprised of the earth element, which lightning is shown to be superior to.  

And no Kishimoto doesn't, he's actually used a fair amount of science, on numerous occasions to validate elemental ninjutsu and medical ninjutsu. The elemental wheel and it's superiority is justified by the physics behind it. I would be inclined to agree with you if the elements were presented in an illogical manner, since they weren't, it's hard to "just ignore" the physics.

You choosing to ignore it for the purposes of this debate is hilarious though, but whatever floats your boat. I'll take that as you are conceding on this ground.



Turrin said:


> It?s not about immobilizing Deidara, it?s about the fact that any of his bombs can be diffused by attacking them with any Raiton ability. This offers Raiton users a huge advantage when facing Deidara as they can use less chakra consuming minor Raitons to counter Bombs they otherwise would need much more effort to counter, if they were capable of countering them at all.


The biggest issue here is that Deidara has the flight advantage and the only one that stands a chance is Oonoki. He's the only with consistent flight capabilities, enough knowledge and a proper technique to fight with him. The others would get bombarded with C2 Guided bombs. 



Turrin said:


> Sasuke countered a C2 Explosive by channeling such a small ration current through his sword that it was invisible to the naked eye:
> If Sasuke can counter C2 like that. There is no reason why basic Raiton-Flow wouldn?t be enough to diffuse any C2 bomb.


But you ignored the fact that I'm speaking about the homing missiles being launched from the Dragon's Mouth not the land mines. These aren't going to just stop and if launched in numerous quantities, if the opponent is not fast enough, he's going to get caught. Even Sasuke couldn't avoid the jutsu with and w/o CS2 activated; the shinobi mentioned above do not have the same agility, reflexes and/or dojutsu to predict the attack. The real danger that follows is when Deidara starts spamming his bombs, which would kill all of them. 



Turrin said:


> Sasuke had yet to figure out Raiton could counter Deidara?s Bombs. Otherwise there would have been nothing stopping him from channeling a bit of Raiton into his Shuriken and just throwing them at the C2 Missiles to diffuse them.


Precisely my point, Sasuke figured it out later in the battle through but prior to that, he was caught in it the explosions on numerous occasions. These other shinobi mentioned by OP, aren't going to figure it out, because they don't naturally use raiton as apart of their repertoire. I gave Oonoki the benefit of the doubt but as I explained even he felt more comfortable using his own technique as opposed to resorting to raiton.



Turrin said:


> If we are told someone has something or if there?s a good amount of evidence that they likely have something, I find it unfair to not account for it in some fashion. As at that point your not trying to find out who would actually win, just trying to win an argument.


Personally, I tend to go by feats and I take into account within reason what the databooks and other sources have to offer. I don't automatically assume that shinobi who can use element will automatically decide to use it, without having some confirmation, like Sasuke did.



Turrin said:


> I?m sorry, but this is just a perversion of the text. The Raw text does not have him acknowledging Deidara?s strength above any of the other members being referenced here. Again all it says is that *Deidara?s loss would be felt more than Tobi?s*. Anything else is literally factually incorrect.


So again, he went out of his way to make a point about Deidara but when the zombie twins died, they just said they were dead. 



Turrin said:


> I?m not putting words in your mouth. You suggested Deidara was better than other Akatsuki members because he could blow up Sungakuru, while they could not. To which I ask than why is he not better than Itachi, MS-Sasuke, Kakashi, etc? who also could not blow up a village? It?s a very simple question and I would like an answer.


The sharingan, it was his weakness and it's what did him in the end. The members I have him above don't have one and the ones above him have one. Did you forget how much the sharingan actually assisted Sasuke in exposing the weakness?



Turrin said:


> Sasuke, ?So far all of your seals have been doton?
> 
> Sasuke only cited that Sharingan allowed him to read Deidara?s seals despite their speed, there was no mention of duress or any other factors impeding him:
> 
> ...


the

Before the last quote, it says all you can do is "hide your hands while you form seals" which is precisely what Deidara did throughout the battle. He hid his hand seals and only showed it once. The point of reference in the scan was made precisely towards when he released C4 Garuda. It was the only time that Sasuke actually saw his hand seals, throughout the entire match and I don't even blame Deidara for showing it at that time, because look at the distance Sasuke put between him and that bomb. 

Prior to that, Sasuke was continually getting bombarded with the bombs. If you have proof where else Sasuke saw his seals, I would like to see it.



Turrin said:


> This is very simply because Onoki?s objective was not to defend Deidara?s bombs, he was the one on offense and due to anger was not pulling any punches and opting to go right for Jinton to obliterate Deidara. If there was an instance where Deidara could put Onoki on defense and he needed to deal with bombs, I see no reason why he would not use Raiton to diffuse them, just like the ambush squad did.


So what makes you think it will be any different if he fights Deidara again? If they fought again, Deidara would be cornered yet again by Oonoki and he wouldn't use raiton to defend or for offense, he'll use Jinton and it'll come down to who can execute their jutsu faster. Oonoki hard-pressed him and pushed him out of his comfort zone because he hated Deidara's fighting style. Something the other four aren't going to be able to replicate.



Turrin said:


> Pretty sure Kakuzu doesn?t even breath considering his lack of well lungs. Against Onoki we saw how that goes, he tries to throw C4 at a Jinton beam and both him as well as C4 get atomized.
> 
> Given the conditions he only really stands a chance against Mei. But that relies on him getting airborn against Mei?s massive Suiton, not being Futton GG?d, and Mei not figuring out Nendo?s weaknes, meaning that Mei still has plenty of avenues for victory.


Can you prove he doesn't? That's an awfully huge jump to make.

Even so, any microscopic bombs near his eyes or face will render him blind, the jutsu should work without breathing since they are just microscopic bombs. Much like getting dust in your eyes, even though the effect won't be as dramatic, but it'll still get the job done. 

Also, according to the match, Deidara starts on the C2 Dragon and even if he didn't, he'd make it into the air with an easy C1 diversion, he pulled off against Sasuke.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jun 29, 2015)

*Part 2 - Didnt fit in one*



Turrin said:


> This is very simply because Onoki?s objective was not to defend Deidara?s bombs, he was the one on offense and due to anger was not pulling any punches and opting to go right for Jinton to obliterate Deidara. If there was an instance where Deidara could put Onoki on defense and he needed to deal with bombs, I see no reason why he would not use Raiton to diffuse them, just like the ambush squad did.


So what makes you think it will be any different if he fights Deidara again? If they fought again, Deidara would be cornered yet again by Oonoki and he wouldn't use raiton to defend or for offense, he'll use Jinton and it'll come down to who can execute their jutsu faster. Oonoki hard-pressed him and pushed him out of his comfort zone because he hated Deidara's fighting style. Something the other four aren't going to be able to replicate.



Turrin said:


> If they have knowledge I see no reason why they couldn?t simply flow some ration through a weapon and throw it at the missiles to diffuse them before they exploded. And the C1 Bomb they don?t even need to avoid as it did nothing to Deidara but push him out of the way of Sasuke?s attack, despite him being in point blank range.
> 
> If they don?t have knowledge, than most of them are still likely to be capable of dealing with it and by your own admission basically.
> 
> ...





> *If* they have knowledge


That's the biggest issue with this problem, they aren't going to figure it out. Of the shinobi in this thread, the only one who would have knowledge is Oonoki and he still opted to use Jinton. Of the shinobi you mentioned which have raiton listed, I only excluded the ones that primarily used raiton (e.g. Darui, Kakashi, Ei, Sandaime). That still leaves:


> Muu, Oonoki, Troll, Mei, Gaara, Naruto, Tsunade, Hashirama, Tobirama, Hiruzen and Minato.


The point of my post was to suggest that even though some of the shinobi you listed would win the battle against Deidara, they would do so *without* resorting to raiton techniques because they would not deduce it mid-battle as Sasuke did. Naruto, Hashirama, Minato all have sage-sensing and Minato/Tobirama on top of that have Hiraishin, they have other avenues to explore. 

Gaara losing against Deidara is manga fact and that was when Deidara wasn't trying to kill him. If he wanted to kill him than it would have been C4 Garuda and Gaara would eventually breathe in the bombs and dies. Even Gaara kept him at a distance and he couldn't see the seals that Deidara was making while fight him either.  

Tsunade can be killed via bombardment, her durability is exceptionally weak and C3 or higher would damage her to the point where she would not be able to recover immediately or would take longer to recover especially if she takes a shot to the head. Furthermore, Sasuke was hard-pressed for dodging it with the sharingan, she's not going to be able to dodge it at all. Multiple C2 or a single C3 would end the fight right there. Katsuyu is a non-factor in the fight.

Both Mei and Hirzuen (Old) don't have the speed or durability to stay the course and neither of them have shown anything to take Deidara out of the sky. He just spams bombs and blows them to pieces. Deidara's flight advantage really rules out anything they could do to him and most o the time he made his seals for the bomb they were hidden under his coat. Plus, can Hiruzen even see that far at his age? 

Deidara's speed is 4.5, the category of seals is limited specifically to proficiency and knowledge, does not account for speed, according to Databook 3.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Electricity disrupts the magnetic field and besides both techniques are kekkai genkai, if they truly couldn't be stopped by a single element then this would not have worked against Deidara.


I don't think Nendo being a Kekkai Genkai technique is that straight forward. Sasuke outright states it's a Doton Technique. The Data-book lists it as a hiden Jutsu and states it's a Kinjutsu of Iwagakuru, rather than calling it a Kekkai Genkai. It also doesn't make much sense for the elemental fusions to be weak to the techniques in opposition to them, because not only would Nendo be thee sole instance that we see that exploited, but it would make fusions weaker than just solid elements as they have more weaknesses rather than them being stronger than solid elements.

I think a much more cogent explanation is that Nendo is a Doton Kinjutsu for shaping the clay and than Bakuton users mold their Bakuton chakra into their clay creations to make it explosive, and the Raiton is countering the Doton part of this. Or Hanzo was simply mistaken.



> And no Kishimoto doesn't, he's actually used a fair amount of science, on numerous occasions to validate elemental ninjutsu and medical ninjutsu. The elemental wheel and it's superiority is justified by the physics behind it. I would be inclined to agree with you if the elements were presented in an illogical manner, since they weren't, it's hard to "just ignore" the physics.


Oh I'll concede alright once you explain to me the physics of controlling and shaping Iron Sand by making specific hand signs. Otherwise the point is a moot, because your trying to apply scientific facts to a distinctly unscientific ability. Basically no different than those ""scientist"" who try to explain the biblical miracles, monsters, and other fantastical elements with "science" and end up with silly results. 

And even if we use science, I'd like to see where it's stated that an electrical current of any magnitude can disrupt magnetic force of any magnitude. 



> The biggest issue here is that Deidara has the flight advantage and the only one that stands a chance is Oonoki. He's the only with consistent flight capabilities, enough knowledge and a proper technique to fight with him.


Sasuke dealt with Deidara's flight through the usage of a Mid-Range Elemental Jutsu and some Shuriken:



Kakuzu's Gain is stronger than Eisou, with each bolt matching a full fledge Chidori, while Eisou is weaker than Chidori. And has a greater range than Eisou, considering that it's listed as Long-Range versus Eisou which is only mid-range. And unlike Eisou Gain can produce many attacks at once:



Simply put Kakuzu is armed with a superior tool than the one Sasuke used to deal with Deidara' flight, so I see no reason why he'd be incapable of dealing with Deidara's flight himself.

Gaara canonically dealt with Deidara's flight and that was all the way back at the start of PII. Sasori has an upgraded and much more deadly form of Gaara's Sand via Satetsu, so I see no reason why he can't deal with Deidara's flight ether. 

Mei is the only one that even makes sense to questions, but her massive Suitons clearly still give her ways to attack Deidara despite his flight.




> But you ignored the fact that I'm speaking about the homing missiles being launched from the Dragon's Mouth not the land mines. These aren't going to just stop and if launched in numerous quantities, if the opponent is not fast enough, he's going to get caught. Even Sasuke couldn't avoid the jutsu with and w/o CS2 activated; the shinobi mentioned above do not have the same agility, reflexes and/or dojutsu to predict the attack. The real danger that follows is when Deidara starts spamming his bombs, which would kill all of them.


Gaara casually reacted to Deidara's faster C1-Cranes in cannon and Gaara had a 3 in reflex speed or less at the time, as oppose to Kakuzu's 4, Sasori's 4.5. Again Mei is the only one worth discussing, but I think it's fairly straight forward that someone whose able to react to some of Madara's attacks and keep pace enough to combo with someone like Ei is not less than a 3 in reaction speed, but to each his own. 

Anyway, thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade. All of these characters can defend with Raiton, as long as they know Nendo's weakness.



> Precisely my point, Sasuke figured it out later in the battle through but prior to that, he was caught in it the explosions on numerous occasions.


Sasuke took longer to figure it out due to Tobi being there, otherwise he would have figured it out 2 seconds into the match:

Sasuke, “Before that, all the bombs that my Chidori Senbon pierced did not explode”
Sasuke, “…However because they were dropped in the vicinity of that partner of yours, I had to take into consideration that you did not detonate them on purpose”

Deidara, “…in other words, you didn’t know if the bombs did not explode due to the effects of chidori, or my will.”



> These other shinobi mentioned by OP, aren't going to figure it out, because they don't naturally use raiton as apart of their repertoire. I gave Oonoki the benefit of the doubt but as I explained even he felt more comfortable using his own technique as opposed to resorting to raiton.


Kakuzu uses Raiton as part of his main arsenal. Sasori would be moronic to not know Nendo's weakness. That leaves Gaara and Mei as the main debatable ones, and as I have told you before I do not believe it will be hard for any Kage to deduce that Deidara's Nendo may be Doton based after seeing it utilized a few times. Deidara does not hide his hand-seals and Deidara's seal speed is a mere 3.5, clay also envokes the idea of earth to anyone who is not a moron, Deidara is also a famous Iwakuguru missing ninja which is the village that specializes in oh idk earth-release, and Nendo itself has had more than just Deidara as it's user. 

Is it for sure they would figure it out, no, but it's likely. 



> Personally, I tend to go by feats and I take into account within reason what the databooks and other sources have to offer. I don't automatically assume that shinobi who can use element will automatically decide to use it, without having some confirmation, like Sasuke did.


I didn't say they would automatically use it. I've been saying this entire time that they would eventually figure it out.



> So again, he went out of his way to make a point about Deidara but when the zombie twins died, they just said they were dead.


Because again no fodder died alongside the Zombie Twins. If a Fodder Akatsuki member died alongside them than he would have said the exact same thing.



> The sharingan, it was his weakness and it's what did him in the end. The members I have him above don't have one and the ones above him have one. Did you forget how much the sharingan actually assisted Sasuke in exposing the weakness?


So if they are above him due to Sharingan, than obviously being able to blow up a village or not, doesn't determine someone's strength, thus evaluating other characters by that metric is pointless.


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2015)

> Before the last quote, it says all you can do is "hide your hands while you form seals" which is precisely what Deidara did throughout the battle. He hid his hand seals and only showed it once. The point of reference in the scan was made precisely towards when he released C4 Garuda. It was the only time that Sasuke actually saw his hand seals, throughout the entire match and I don't even blame Deidara for showing it at that time, because look at the distance Sasuke put between him and that bomb.


Again I can read the raws, and the translation I provided you is from that reading. And the Raw has it as Sasuke scolding Deidara for not hiding his seals against him. And:

Sasuke, “So far all of your seals have been doton”

Take note of the "All" and "Seals", Sasuke very clearly implies here that he's seen all of Deidara's seals, not just the single instance with C4.



> So what makes you think it will be any different if he fights Deidara again? If they fought again, Deidara would be cornered yet again by Oonoki and he wouldn't use raiton to defend or for offense, he'll use Jinton and it'll come down to who can execute their jutsu faster. Oonoki hard-pressed him and pushed him out of his comfort zone because he hated Deidara's fighting style. Something the other four aren't going to be able to replicate.


It could be different in team battles, where someone can cover for Deidara until he actually gets a chance to use more Nendo, which than Onoki may need to pull Raiton to diffuse, But sure 1v1 with the same mind-set I agree that Onoki obliterates him with Jinton long before he has a chance to put Onoki on defense.



> Can you prove he doesn't? That's an awfully huge jump to make.


How does a lack of lungs not prove it 

He also literally doesn't have a mouth to breath in Long-Range Mode:





> ven so, any microscopic bombs near his eyes or face will render him blind, the jutsu should work without breathing since they are just microscopic bombs. Much like getting dust in your eyes, even though the effect won't be as dramatic, but it'll still get the job done.


The Jutsu is canonically stated to work based on being inhaled




This is also why the trees don't explode.



> Also, according to the match, Deidara starts on the C2 Dragon and even if he didn't, he'd make it into the air with an easy C1 diversion, he pulled off against Sasuke.


Even if Deidara starts in the air he is still likely to land or fly close to his enemy at the beginning of the match, as that's what he's done literally every fight he's been in at the beginning. I also don't really see how he escapes Mei's Giant Suiton or Futton Gas, with a C1 distraction.



> That's the biggest issue with this problem, they aren't going to figure it out. Of the shinobi in this thread, the only one who would have knowledge is Oonoki and he still opted to use Jinton. Of the shinobi you mentioned which have raiton listed, I only excluded the ones that primarily used raiton (e.g. Darui, Kakashi, Ei, Sandaime). That still leaves:


Okay so, why exactly do you think they'll have such a hard time figuring it out?



> The point of my post was to suggest that even though some of the shinobi you listed would win the battle against Deidara, they would do so without resorting to raiton techniques because they would not deduce it mid-battle as Sasuke did. Naruto, Hashirama, Minato all have sage-sensing and Minato/Tobirama on top of that have Hiraishin, they have other avenues to explore.


I never disagreed with you that many of them could and probably would win w/o using Raiton. I simply said that most Kages can use Raiton. 



> aara losing against Deidara is manga fact and that was when Deidara wasn't trying to kill him. If he wanted to kill him than it would have been C4 Garuda and Gaara would eventually breathe in the bombs and dies. Even Gaara kept him at a distance and he couldn't see the seals that Deidara was making while fight him either.


Firstly you should note that Gaara was also not going for the kill against Deidara. So both had that disadvantage in that fight:



However I don't necessarily disagree that Deidara is better than Start of Part II-Gaara, so I'm not sure what your arguing against here. What I believe is that War-Arc Gaara is a superior shinobi to Deidara.



> Tsunade can be killed via bombardment, her durability is exceptionally weak and C3 or higher would damage her to the point where she would not be able to recover immediately or would take longer to recover especially if she takes a shot to the head. Furthermore, Sasuke was hard-pressed for dodging it with the sharingan, she's not going to be able to dodge it at all. Multiple C2 or a single C3 would end the fight right there. Katsuyu is a non-factor in the fight.


Tsunade defended the entire village against this:



And than got back up to run to the Pain vs Naruto fight.

So needless to say I have my doubts



> Both Mei and


Here's a post from Godaime about Mei's speed, while I'll easily agree that it's a bit bias towards Mei it still outlines why her speed is better than you might expect:



Godaime Tsunade said:


> The first point I'd like to raise regards her _movement_ speed. Having originally stood _here_, she manages to cross the distance around the same time Tsunade does so on the _following page_, and not only that, but she throws herself into the air and goes behind Madara during the same time frame.
> 
> Secondly, I'd like to draw your attention to the speed of her _ninjutsu_. With suiton, Mei's attack was so fast that it could cover a greater distance than that of Madara's katon the very minute he produced one, and it is even able to extinguish it before it can reach Tsunade. _[even though its already dangerously close to her]_ [ 1 ] Calling Mei out on her inability to counter Madara's katon's _here_ would be unfair, she had sustained a great deal of injury at that point, after all.
> 
> ...



As far as hitting Airborn Deidara goes, that is again assuming he achieves flight, but If he does I see no reason why this Water-Dragon:



Which covered this distance:



Would be insufficient.




> Hirzuen (Old) don't have the speed or durability to stay the course and neither of them have shown anything to take Deidara out of the sky. He just spams bombs and blows them to pieces. Deidara's flight advantage really rules out anything they could do to him and most o the time he made his seals for the bomb they were hidden under his coat. Plus, can Hiruzen even see that far at his age?


As far as Hiruzen goes these feats are more than enough for me to believe he can react in time to use a Raiton Technique to diffuse Deidara's bombs:



The guy may not be a movement speed demon, but he has solid reflexes and insanely quick Jutsu casting speed.



> Deidara's speed is 4.5, the category of seals is limited specifically to proficiency and knowledge, does not account for speed, according to Databook 3.


Deidara has a 3.5, and proficiency is how good someone is at using hand-seals, I.E. their speed. Deidara also has no notable hype for the speed of his seals.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

He has a nose though.


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## Turrin (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He has a nose though.


Which inhales oxygen into the tentacles


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't know the specifics behind Jingo's mechanism, but unless it is stated or shown otherwise, Kakuzu's body needs oxygen.


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know the specifics behind Jingo's mechanism, but unless it is stated or shown otherwise, Kakuzu's body needs oxygen.



How is a lack of throat and lungs, not showing otherwise?


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 1, 2015)

I think Deidara'd beat Mei/Gaara, vs Kakuzu could go either way but once/if Deidara goes airborne it's gg.

Deidara loses to Sasori hype wise/defeats him featwise. Danzo beats him pretty bad once izanagi is activated.

He's solid mid imo both among akatsuki and kages. 

Deidara has reasonable speed feats, good tactical prowess (clone feinted Sasuke/Kakashi), reasonable anti-genjutsu abilities, short/mid/long range capability, and is altogether a solid and rounded shinobi. His ability to fly and specifically stated inclination towards staying out of range pushes him a little higher but he's a fair mid level


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2015)

I don't get how people are saying well he might be able to beat thee weakest Kages, but he's Mid-Kage. By simple arithmetic , you'd at least need to be capable of defeating 14 different Kages to be "Mid-Kage". Yet apparently having maybe a chance against two of the weakest, is enough to qualify you for "Mid-Kage" or are people just assuming all the unseen Kage are fodder.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 1, 2015)

I'm kind of taking a holistic point of view also to rate him, so beating targets kind of comes secondary. Kind of like, for instance, I factor in Nagato's ability to revive thousands of people as part of his power even if he doesn't do it in battle necessarily.

Altogether, I think Deidara's a pretty reasonable shinobi though for my aforementioned reasons Turrin.

He has good spread between genjutsu resistance/speed/all-range combat/destruction-Kill potential and he's aerial to boot.

A lot of these other kage are not nearly as rounded

Most of them either don't use kage bushin IC or havent demonstrated proficiency in it
Have limited speed feats both in personal movement as well as ninjutsu speed/difficulty dodging(we just assume there ninjutsu is difficult to dodge 'because kage' which is fine and fair)
Have a poor long range game or a poor close range game(deidara has forest-level clone feints and c1, c2+ for other ranges). The Raikages? very onedimensional(although very good at what they do). A lot of kage are one dimensional though, I'd be scared for Mei or Hiruzen or Gaara if Hebi Sasuke started the fight 10m out.
No genjutsu related feats or defense
C3-C4 to kill people or penetrate hardy defenses. Alot of these other kage? can't kill/penetrate/ not enough power. Orochimaru or Tsunade could probably face tank alot of them.
Now, I'm not saying he's great or even exceptional, but again I really don't think it's unreasonable to say there are a lot better choice picks for "low kage" individuals. I guess that's all in my opinion/perspective though.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> How is a lack of throat and lungs, not showing otherwise?



It doesn't, because we actually don't know if he is lacking those, or if he has replaced them with something else.
But to maintain his body functions he needs a respiratory system.


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'm kind of taking a holistic point of view also to rate him, so beating targets kind of comes secondary. Kind of like, for instance, I factor in Nagato's ability to revive


Okay and Deidara hardly has any support abilities and his bombs don't play nice with any teammate that is a CQC or even mid range oriented fighter. It's also more likely that he'll go up against an enemy with Raiton in a team battle, thus being less valuable to any team he's on.



> Have limited speed feats both in personal movement as well as ninjutsu speed/difficulty dodging(we just assume there ninjutsu is difficult to dodge 'because kage' which is fine and fair)
> Have a poor long range game or a poor close range game(deidara has forest-level clone feints and c1, c2+ for other ranges). The Raikages? very onedimensional(although very good at what they do). A lot of kage are one dimensional though, I'd be scared for Mei or Hiruzen or Gaara if Hebi Sasuke started the fight 10m out.
> No genjutsu related feats
> C3-C4 to kill people or penetrate hardy defenses. Alot of these other kage? can't kill/penetrate/ not enough power. Orochimaru or Tsunade could probably face tank alot of them.


This is just silly, in terms of versatility all the Kages are more versatile than Deidara who primarily relies on a single technique made up of a single element and therefore exposes himself to a huge weakness to Raiton, which none of the Kages themselves have. While all the Kages I can recall have mastery of 3 or more elements usually on-top of many other powerful Jutsu. 

All of these Kages have a better close range game than Deidara, and no escaping from Hebi-Sasuke w/ your life barely intact is not some huge achievement. Even the weakest Kage, Mei, managed to go a few rounds with 5 Madara clones, before being beaten down. And actually did take Sasuke on in CQC and pushed him back rather than the other way around, and before you tell me Sauske was tired, he clearly was not too tiered to use his speed and Kenjutsu and minor Raitons, if he could pull out Susano'o, which is all he used against Deidara. Most also have good to excellent ranged abilities, with the exception being Ei.

And most Kages do indeed have ways around Durability monsters, even two of the weakest Gaara and Mei have ways to deal with them via sealing and Acid/Lava. 

So besides Ei who is indeed about as one dimensional as Deidara, but ultimately his one dimension is more dangerous than Deidara's, none of what your saying applies to any of the other Gokage, even the weaker ones like Mei and Gaara.



> Now, I'm not saying he's great or even exceptional, but again I really don't think it's unreasonable to say there are a lot better choice picks for "low kage" individuals. I guess that's all in my opinion/perspective though.


He is great and exceptional, but that doesn't mean he measures up to most Kages. If your saying he's Mid-Kage, which means he's around the average Kage in ability, he needs to be better than 14 Kages. It being debatable whether he's better than a couple of the weakest Kages we've seen, does not even begin to get him close to that point.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 1, 2015)

> Okay and Deidara hardly has any support abilities and his bombs don't play nice with any teammate that is a CQC or even mid range oriented fighter. It's also more likely that he'll go up against an enemy with Raiton in a team battle, thus being less valuable to any team he's on.


I'm not saying he doesn't have shortcomings though Turrin, I think he has less of them though with respect to the average kage. Deidara can grant any team he's on flight capability but, again, I'm not debating he's flawless mind you simply less so.

Before responding to the rest, I have to point out you neglected my points concerning lack of genjutsu defense, lack of tactical prowess/trickery, and lack of speed feats(both personal such as shunshin, as well as actual jutsu speed). These are all general and broadly beneficial traits that most Kage lack; too big to be swept under a rug so to speak imo.



> This is just silly, in terms of versatility all the Kages are more versatile than Deidara who primarily relies on a single technique made up of a single element and therefore exposes himself to a huge weakness to Raiton, which none of the Kages themselves have. While all the Kages I can recall have mastery of 3 or more elements usually on-top of many other powerful Jutsu.


Mei/Gaara/Gaara Dad/Orochimaru/Raikages all don't use many different elements. 
Mei has diversity but a lack of feats. Futton and yoton could be as simple to dodge as shunshining back. 
Gaara and Dad use the same tools every fight.
 Orochimaru is a non-elemental user for most part which has it's own shortcomings
The raikages are just as one dimensional as the sand kages



> All of these Kages have a better close range game than Deidara, and no escaping from Hebi-Sasuke w/ your life barely intact is not some huge achievement. Even the weakest Kage, Mei, managed to go a few rounds with 5 Madara clones, before being beaten down. And actually did take Sasuke on in CQC and pushed him back rather than the other way around, and before you tell me Sauske was tired, he clearly was not too tiered to use his speed and Kenjutsu and minor Raitons, if he could pull out Susano'o, which is all he used against Deidara. Most also have good to excellent ranged abilities, with the exception being Ei.


 Mei/Gaara/Hiruzen in Deidara's position would of all been bisected at the waist. Were the Madara clones faster than Hebi Sasuke? They were never hyped for speed, though Sasuke's speed was made a point to be emphasized both in DB as well as panels. Kage Summit Sasuke wasn't fresh, it's pretty disingenuous to claim he was.

Deidara's ranged game has speed feats for comparison/against a target noted to be speedy, and are capable of tracking/honing on target. His aoe is also much bigger than most kage. 



> And most Kages do indeed have ways around Durability monsters, even two of the weakest Gaara and Mei have ways to deal with them via sealing and Acid/Lava.


If we take a line up of Ei/Orochimaru/Tsunade
the sand kages, raikages, orochimaru,  second mizukage as well as many hokage are all lacking in killing capability.



> So besides Ei who is indeed about as one dimensional as Deidara, but ultimately his one dimension is more dangerous than Deidara's, none of what your saying applies to any of the other Gokage, even the weaker ones like Mei and Gaara.


Deidara's really much more versatile than Ei. You don't genuinely believe Ei's as multifaceted as Deidara right?



> He is great and exceptional, but that doesn't mean he measures up to most Kages. If your saying he's Mid-Kage, which means he's around the average Kage in ability, he needs to be better than 14 Kages. It being debatable whether he's better than a couple of the weakest Kages we've seen, does not even begin to get him close to that point.


Could you clarify this bit, how many kage are there exactly? Why does he need to be greater than 14 to be considered mid?
I'm really not a fan of the whole block of text thing so we needa downsize or something


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2015)

kakuzu has blood. red blood at that. am pretty sure the guy breathes normally and will b horribly trolled by C4 
if ever deidara could manage it. sadly he cant


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## Turrin (Jul 2, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'm not saying he doesn't have shortcomings though Turrin,


So than we agree Support is one of his short comings?



> Before responding to the rest, I have to point out you neglected my points concerning lack of genjutsu defense, lack of tactical prowess/trickery, and lack of speed feats(both personal such as shunshin, as well as actual jutsu speed). These are all general and broadly beneficial traits that most Kage lack; too big to be swept under a rug so to speak imo.


See I don't want to write up an essay on why every single Kage is being heavily underrated versatility wise here, except perhaps Ei, so why don't you instead tell me which Kages specifically you feel Deidara is superior to first.



> Mei/Gaara/Gaara Dad/Orochimaru/Raikages all don't use many different elements.


I don't see how whether they use them or not matters, what matters is that they have them and can use them if the situation demands. 



> Mei/Gaara/Gaara Dad/Orochimaru/Raikages all don't use many different elements.
> Mei has diversity but a lack of feats. Futton and yoton could be as simple to dodge as shunshining back.
> Gaara and Dad use the same tools every fight.
> Orochimaru is a non-elemental user for most part which has it's own shortcomings
> The raikages are just as one dimensional as the sand kages


Not using something frequently is different than not having something. All of these character perfer on style but have options outside of it. Diedara is just doton.



> Mei/Gaara/Hiruzen in Deidara's position would of all been bisected at the waist. Were the Madara clones faster than Hebi Sasuke? They were never hyped for speed, though Sasuke's speed was made a point to be emphasized both in DB as well as panels.
> Deidara's ranged game has speed feats for comparison/against a target noted to be speedy, and are capable of tracking/honing on target. His aoe is also much bigger than most kage.


Mei and Gaara cannonically were in Deidara's position and were not bisect. And Hiruzen kept up with Orochimaru who has the same speed as Sasuke, so that's also out.



> Kage Summit Sasuke wasn't fresh, it's pretty disingenuous to claim he was.


Unless you want to argue that Susano'o takes less chakra than using Sasuke's speed and generic Kenjutsu slashes, this is a moot point.



> If we take a line up of Ei/Orochimaru/Tsunade
> the sand kages, raikages, orochimaru, second mizukage as well as many hokage are all lacking in killing capability.


List the characters they can't kill and Deidara can.



> Deidara's really much more versatile than Ei. You don't genuinely believe Ei's as multifaceted as Deidara right?


Ei is ultra specialized in CQC, while Deidara is ultra specialized in Long-Range Combat. Both rely heavily on a single Jutsu and single element for their fighting style. Can Deidara's 1 Jutsu do more stuff than Ei's 1 Jutsu, sure, but it's still reliance on a single element and a single Jutsu, hence both are very one dimensional fighters. And while Deidara's one dimensional fighting style can be more dangerous than Ei's, it also has a much more crippling weakness than Ei's, which is why he is ultimately inferior. Fuck the fact that Ei was a major threat and enemy for Sasuke multiple arcs after he had already dealt with Deidara w/o having to go all out, should be more than enough to illustrate that difference.



> Could you clarify this bit, how many kage are there exactly? Why does he need to be greater than 14 to be considered mid?
> I'm really not a fan of the whole block of text thing so we needa downsize or something



Hokage:
1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Tobirama
4. Hiruzen
5. Tsunade
6. Kakashi
7. Minato

Mizukage:
1. Chojiro
2. Mei
3. Troll
4. Sandaime-Mizukage
5. Shodai Pirate Kage
6. Yagura

Tsuchikage:
1. Kurotsuchi
2. Onoki
3. Mu
4. Onoki's Clone

Suna:
1. Gaara
2. Rasa
3. Sandaime 
4. Nindaime
5. Shodai

Kumo:
1. Darui
2. Ei
3. Sandaime
4. Nindaime
5. Shodai

Basically 7 + 6 + 5 + 4 + 5 = 27

So for someone to be in the middle of the pack they'd have to be >=  27 / 2, which = 13.5, rounded up 14.

Even if I entertain the idea that Deidara is around Mei, Gaara, Rasa, and fuck i'll throw Ei in there too, which by all rights I believe they are all stronger except perhaps Mei, that is a long way off from Mid-Kage.


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## Lawrence777 (Jul 2, 2015)

> So than we agree Support is one of his short comings?


 I'll say he's lacking to a certain degree. 

He doesn't mend well with close range fighters, but he should be okay teaming with other long range types. Additionally, I believe his ability to grant flight counts for something in terms of support.



> See I don't want to write up an essay on why every single Kage is being heavily underrated versatility wise here, except perhaps Ei, so why don't you instead tell me which Kages specifically you feel Deidara is superior to first.


I'll flesh this point out for clarity:
Superior in the three areas(tactics/genjutsu/speed) I mentioned? For starters, all of the featless kage (alot of them), +  Mei/Hiruzen/Gaara/Dad and to a lesser extent Tsunade/Orochimaru. 

A lot of their ninjutsu is "assumed" to be capable of hitting fast targets when never used on fast targets.
 Their genjutsu resistance is again "assumed"(whereas Deidara has _demonstrated_ anti-genjutsu capabilities)
Not as tactical/unpredictable as Deidara(feinting Team Kakashi, feinting Sasuke, implanting Gaara's sand, basically every major fight Deidara's been in. His strongest move, C4, is invisible). Instead, they act like Kakuzu, spamming elemental ninjutsu/trying to overwhelm.
_I'm okay_ with assuming they are reasonably proficient in some of these areas. I have no reason to believe they're _superior_ though to individuals with noted aptitude or ability in those areas though. 

Why would I believe, say, the second kazekage(featless) should have abilities exceeding those of Deidara's in these areas? Hype can affect this though. 



> I don't see how whether they use them or not matters, what matters is that they have them and can use them if the situation demands.
> 
> Not using something frequently is different than not having something. All of these character perfer on style but have options outside of it. Diedara is just doton.


And if they do use something they've never used, _that we've never seen on panel_, *how* do we gauge that? Do we guesstimate it can hit Hebi Sasuke or perhaps Deidara who's flying @ Onoki's speed? This is what I meant about assumption of speed.



> Mei and Gaara cannonically were in Deidara's position and were not bisect. And Hiruzen kept up with Orochimaru who has the same speed as Sasuke, so that's also out.


By Deidara's position, I mean this[1]. And Orochimaru has much greater speed feats than Hiruzen Turrin[1][2], he's closer to Hebi Sasuke if anything.



> Unless you want to argue that Susano'o takes less chakra than using Sasuke's speed and generic Kenjutsu slashes, this is a moot point.


Sasuke wasn't using his speed at those moments and was hunkering down in Susano'o against both iirc.



> List the characters they can't kill and Deidara can.


Minato Hiruzen Tobirama Raikages trollkage gaara+Dad Orochimaru would all be hardpressed to put down Orochimaru/Tsunade/Ei/Kabuto/Killer Bee/Doton Domu/Susano'o. Deidara can either explode most those defenses or bypass altogether via breath-in explosives. 

Let's agree to disagree on the Raikage concerning versatility. Ei's stronger than Deidara for sure mind you, I don't put them in the same tier. But Deidara much more versatile and we're probably not going to change each other's opinions on that front.

@ the list, thanks for showing it I kind of understand where your coming from with the 14 now but again, most those guys are featless. I don't think it's underrating or overrating to be skeptical of there abilities. I wouldn't summarily place them above Deidara.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 2, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I'll say he's lacking to a certain degree.
> 
> He doesn't mend well with close range fighters, but he should be okay teaming with other long range types. Additionally, I believe his ability to grant flight counts for something in terms of support.
> .


Okay.



> Superior in the three areas(tactics/genjutsu/speed) I mentioned? For starters, all of the featless kage (alot of them)


Okay well to me it's completely unfair to say Deidara is better than totally unknown quantities.




> + Mei/Hiruzen/Gaara/Dad and to a lesser extent Tsunade/Orochimaru.
> A lot of their ninjutsu is "assumed" to be capable of hitting fast targets when never used on fast targets.


PART ONE-Gaara's Regulard Sand got Kimi who has a 4.5 in speed before CS. So you are significantly underrating him. And Rasa's Gold Dust kept up with War-Arc Gaara's Gourd Sand, so he's significantly underrated here as well. Hiruzen kept up with Orochimaru and Shinsuusenju, so he's underrated. Tsunade landed blows on Madara Susano'o Clones, so she's underrated. For Mei refer back to the post from Godaime I quoted. 



> Their genjutsu resistance is again "assumed"(whereas Deidara has demonstrated anti-genjutsu capabilities)


Gaara and Hiruzen both canonically countered the only Genjutsu they went up against. Mei has the same demonic mist as Zabuza that canonically countered one of the strongest Genjutsu types in the manga - Sharingan Genjutsu. Tsunade, Gaara, and Mei also all fought 5 Madara clones who were capable of Genjtusu and weren't hit by it once. Tsunade has the partner method through Katsuya and Hiruzen has it through KB and Enma. 

Rasa is the only one who hasn't shown anything prudent to how he'd perform against Genjutsu and gee I wonder why, when he had a grand total of a single 2 chapter fight against a non-Genjutsu user.



> Not as tactical/unpredictable as Deidara(feinting Team Kakashi, feinting Sasuke, implanting Gaara's sand, basically every major fight Deidara's been in. His strongest move, C4, is invisible). Instead, they act like Kakuzu, spamming elemental ninjutsu/trying to overwhelm.


Deidara can also be moronic though. See Ambush-Squad battle. See him going to invade Suna low on clay for no reason. See him taking on Naruto and Kakashi missing an arm. And so on. 

So he's very inconsistent.



> And if they do use something they've never used, that we've never seen on panel, how do we gauge that? Do we guesstimate it can hit Hebi Sasuke or perhaps Deidara who's flying @ Onoki's speed? This is what I meant about assumption of speed.


Depends on the specific match up and what purpose someone is arguing it serves. For example if someone can use Raiton, but has never shown it on panel, i'm still going to find that a useful ability to have against Deidara since literally any level of Raiton is useful against him.



> By Deidara's position, I mean this[1]..


I know what you meant, and they were both in that position in close range with Sasuke and cannonically that did not happen. In-fact Gaara specifically took on stronger faster attacks like Enton and was fine. So I find it rather silly to believe it will happen here.



> And Orochimaru has much greater speed feats than Hiruzen Turrin[1][2], he's closer to Hebi Sasuke if anything


Anf Hiruzen kept up with Orochimaru.



> Sasuke wasn't using his speed at those moments and was hunkering down in Susano'o against both iirc.


Dude if he could have used his speed, he'd have simply evaded Mei's attack and cut her in half instead of needing Susano'o, same thing with Gaara.



> Minato Hiruzen Tobirama Raikages trollkage gaara+Dad Orochimaru would all be hardpressed to put down Orochimaru/Tsunade/Ei/Kabuto/Killer Bee/Doton Domu/Susano'o. Deidara can either explode most those defenses or bypass altogether via breath-in explosives.



Hardpressed is not incapable of killing them though. I also believe Deidara would be hardpressed to kill these guys, if not it being outright impossible for him.

Now if were talking literally can't kill these guys than your wrong.

Minato and Hiruzen can kill them all with Shiki Fuujin
Tobirama can kill them all with Tandem Explosive Tags
Sandaime can seal them all with Amber Jar
Gengetsu can blow up or drown all of them sans Kabuto
Gaara can seal all of them
Rasa can bury all of them 
Orochimaru can kill all of them with poison besides himself and Kabuto. 

Ei is the only one I see struggling but he can kill some of them if he hits them enough. Than there is Kabuto whose tough for some to take down, but honestly Deidara stands no chance against him anyway alongside most of the verse, so to me even listing him is a moot point. 

On top of this we also should consider that most battles in the naruto verse are team or platoon battles, and sealing shinobi are pretty easily available, so most of the time not having a way to directly 
durability freaks is a moot point anyway, because someone on your team will have that capability.



> the list, thanks for showing it I kind of understand where your coming from with the 14 now but again, most those guys are featless. I don't think it's underrating or overrating to be skeptical of there abilities. I wouldn't summarily place them above Deidara.


I'm not saying you should, i'm saying you shouldn't summarily place Deidara above them. We just don't know in most cases if he's stronger than them, hence it's tough to say whether anyone is High/Mid/or Low-Kage because so many kages are unknowns.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You can say you use a specific translation, but i'm not going to go against what I read in the original Raw, unless someone more fluent in Japanese than myself, explains to me why my reading of the text is wrong. As far as Viz goes though, they have basically the same thing I said tho
> 
> Sasuke, "All of your jutsu so far have used the doton or earth style signs"
> 
> ...


All of the scans you showed of was Deidara using the seal of confrontation, not the doton-based seal that Sasuke referenced to . The only time Sasuke saw that was when Deidara used C4. As an expert at his technique, it is plausible that Deidara doesn't require to use that specific seal for C1/C2, much in the same manner that Sasuke doesn't require seals for Chidori, Kakashi for Raikiri and etc..



Turrin said:


> As I said and showed the guy literally does not have a throat in long range mode to intake oxygen. Your also making a big deal out of how the guy had to breath, but literally we've seen multiple other characters that didn't have to breath to live due to a Jutsu's effects, three of which were in Akatsuki as well; Hidan, Konan [in Shikigami Form], and Sasori. So this isn't really uncommon territory for the manga.
> 
> Now why should I believe Kakuzu somehow breaths despite his lack of the actual biological necessities to do so, rather than him just being another Akatsuki member whose monstrous Jutsu enables him to exist w/o the need to breath?


Because he has hearts, his physical body requires oxygen which is required for basic human functioning (e.g. processing information in the brain). Furthermore, as Icegaze mentioned, his blood was red, which is a clear indicator of respiration occurring.



Turrin said:


> The manga gives us the qualifier that it blows up things that inhale it. Giving us that qualifier if the bombs don't need to be inhaled is pointless. I understand very well that this defies how it would actually work in the real world, but chaka and magic ninja don't exist in the real world ether, so again this psudo-science your trying to apply is pointless to me in the face of how the Jutsu is qualified to work in both the manga and data-book.


Not pseudo-science, just simple math, if it gets into anyone's eye, they will lose their eyesight. The eye is not like skin or hair, which has numerous layers of epidermis between it and a blood vessel.  



Turrin said:


> No he wasn't. Akatsuchi saved him by stopping Onoki from using Jinton to avoid killing turtle island. Than Onoki had to wait until he got far enough away from Turtle island before he could think about using Jinton again.


He kept up with the Tsuchikage for a while even after escaping him. Akatsuchi did stop him but Deidara was already on the run before that, he immediately recognized the jutsu and was already leaving.



Turrin said:


> "Chalk it up" What does that mean? Deidara hasn't shown any defensive Dotons.


Deidara is a doton user, you don't think he has any dotons, but you are more than willing to grant one of Jiraiya's toads a raiton, hypocrisy's finest hour. 



Turrin said:


> Gaara was like right next to him in their Cannon fight and literally canonically Deidara performed seals right in-front of him. So he's literally canonically already seen Deidara's seals.
> 
> I really don't have a clue where your getting the idea that Deidara hides his seals from. He never did so in the manga cannon and the concept was only brought up in context of what he should have done facing the Sharingan.


You're confusing the seals, the seal in question is for the earth style, the one that you are claiming everyone sees is the same one that shinobi use to start their sparring matches.



Turrin said:


> What I just showed you has nothing to do with resolve, it shows her defending an ENTIRE VILLAGE from a Jutsu that is well beyond C1/C2, thus illustrating their is little chance that C2 is defeating her.


Defending a village is not the same as defending herself. Multiple guided C2 bombs will do more damage to her individually since the bombs direct blast is focused on her. She doesn't have the speed to avoid it and the greater the damage, the greater the amount of time to heal.



Turrin said:


> If Deidara can be hit by Eisou and some Shuriken I seriously struggle to see Deidara evading Mei's much more flexible and massive water-dragon.


Deidara was in a safe zone at the time and Sasuke was on his speed tier. The dragon will be formed first and Deidara will have time to prep for it. 



Turrin said:


> Once again Sasuke was caught in the explosion because he had to evade the whole bomb, if Hiruzen diffuses the bombs, he doesn't have to do that.


What happens to Hiruzen if he is unable to determine that Deidara uses doton?  



Turrin said:


> And execution has to do with how quickly they can perform their seals. Otherwise I would have a 5 in hand-seals, fuck a 5 year old would after studying them for an hour, because it's not like the handsigns themselves are difficult to memorize or form with your hands. The only part of execution that is scalable is speed.


Execution has to do with if you can perform the jutsu, not how fast you can perform it. 



Turrin said:


> The manga only says Deidara is a Bakuton user, while saying Nendo is a Doton Jutsu. The Data-book I literally can post the scans off listing Nendo as a Hiden Jutsu and saying Nendo is a Kinjutsu.
> 
> There is literally nothing preventing my interpretation from being correct, while yours requires some heavy retecons.


Not quite, the manga says that Deidara is a Bakuton user and the databook lists it specifically as a kekkai genkai. I'm not sure where the confusion lies.



Turrin said:


> What your describing is the creation of an electro magnet and therefore altering the magnetic field of a specific object. However you need to realize that to produce an electro magnet you need a coil to surround that object, you can't just flow a current through it. You also need a current strong enough to alter the object's magnetic field, as any level of electricity is not going to alter something's magnetic field, hence why I can't take a tazer to the eiffel tower and alter it's magnetic field by touching it. Additionally the current must be maintained or the magnetic field is lost.
> 
> So assuming that this did indeed work in the Naruto world, than the perso would need to have something to create a coil, wrap it around fuild substance like Iron Sand somehow, and than charge e great enough electrical current through said coil to disrupt the Iron-Sand's field, which would probably need to be tremendous in the case of the large mass of Satetsu the Kazekage can conjure. So to say it's not very plausible that this is happening in battle is the understatement of the century.
> 
> All of this on top of the fact that your expecting the science to work out perfectly when discussing magic, makes it even more unlikely.


Looks like you need a refresher course on high school physics. 

Tazer/Eifel Tower don't work because unlike the Iron Sand, the Eifel tower is also made of steel and other impure metals which is an exceptionally poor conductor when compared to iron. Iron sand is solely made up of iron.

As for induction of magnetic field, many kids have done it without coils in several high school physics classes, me being one of them. As long as the electricity is being conducted by the metal it will forge a new magnetic field. What this means for Sasori is that this disruption will cause the sand to be come unstable fall to the ground. 

After removing the current, the metal is now supercharged now, so it will take the kazekage puppet more effort in order to exert his control over it. 



Turrin said:


> Again Sasuke hit him with a inferior Jutsu. So I don't see how you can sit here and assert Kakuzu could never hit him.
> 
> And as he jumps he is hit by Kakuzu's Katon or Fuuton.
> 
> Kakuzu would know by then that Deidara is using Doton and diffuse that with Gian. In-fact once Kakuzu pulls out Gian the match is for all intents and purposes over as Gian would deal with Deidara's entire arsenal.


Yeah, not saying any of this isn't possible but Deidara using C2 Dragon can target the masks with multiple guided bombs. Kakuzu is incapable of flight by himself, so he won't be a factor until the very end. 

Where we disagree, is C4 killing him.



Turrin said:


> Were talking about ability to deal with flight. Gaara did not loose the match because he couldn't deal with Deidara's flight.


It was the reason why Gaara was caught, he couldn't keep up with Deidara with his sand, he boxed him in towards the end.



Turrin said:


> C2 can be defended with Suitons pushing the bombs away from her. C3/C4 depends on whether Mei has figured out his weakness to Raiton by then.


C2 isn't going to be defended by a mere suiton, unless you are talking about Kisame's sharkbomb jutsu.



Turrin said:


> They all have a counter to C4, Raiton. It's just whether or not they will use it.


Not saying they don't, they just won't know to use it, even after the bomb detonates, how are they supposed to magically guess that C4 is a microscopic jutsu.



Turrin said:


> I agree that if Deidara survives until he pulls C4 and they haven't figured out his weakness to Raiton by then, that he could defeat Gaara and Mei w/ C4. Kakuzu and Sasori don't breath in my book, so they are immune.
> 
> However as I've said I find it more likely that Deidara will ether be Dead or they will have figured out his weakness before he opts for C4.


Sasori doesn't make it to C4, I think C2/C3 would get him eventually, especially if C2 was able to get Sasuke. All Deidara needs to do is disrupt Sasori's foothold which will cause him to lose control of his puppet. Anyone with sufficient elemental jutsu can win against Sasori, especially doton users. For instance, Yamato is a really great counter for Sasori.



Turrin said:


> Okay just food for thought here, but your view of Kakuzu loosing to Deidara relies on the following assumptions:
> 
> 1) Deidara survives long enough against an extremely powerful Raiton user to opt to use C4
> 2) Kakuzu watches Deidara create a massive bomb and waits till it detonates before thinking to diffuse it with Raiton
> ...


Deidara does have the flight and speed advantage, I have to take that into account and the masks really don't have speed feats. I can see Deidara launching multiple C1/C2 bombs to keep them busy. Deidara also fights with clay clones and etc, so odds are he'll make it through fine. 

Point 3 is baseless, you can't prove he isn't breathing.



Turrin said:


> No it's not because you just told me characters that can't blow up a village are stronger than Deidara, so than there is no good reason for me to believe other characters are weaker than Deidara because they can't blow up a village.


It's my ranking system, you are welcome to your opinion, but by putting Deidara above Kakuzu, Sasori and Kisame isn't to far gone of a conclusion if you compare the four. It's not like I put him in front of Itachi


----------



## Turrin (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> All of the scans you showed of was Deidara using the seal of confrontation, not the doton-based seal that Sasuke referenced to . The only time Sasuke saw that was when Deidara used C4. As an expert at his technique, it is plausible that Deidara doesn't require to use that specific seal for C1/C2, much in the same manner that Sasuke doesn't require seals for Chidori, Kakashi for Raikiri and etc..


Sasuke said all of Deidara's seals were Doton, meaning that when he used the Katsu-seal it was a Doton seal or it was used in conjunction with other seals we as the readers didn't see that were Doton. Ether way you are contradicting the manga by claiming Deidara used seals that were not Doton.

Sasuke, "*All* of your jutsu so far have used the doton or *earth style signs*"



> Because he has hearts, his physical body requires oxygen which is required for basic human functioning (e.g. processing information in the brain)..


Cool and Hidan has a heart and bleeds red, but doesn't need oxygen. Same thing with Sasori. 



> Not pseudo-science, just simple math, if it gets into anyone's eye, they will lose their eyesight. The eye is not like skin or hair, which has numerous layers of epidermis between it and a blood vessel.


Again this is irrelevant when the Jutsu was stated to work based on being inhaled. Simply put your arguing against how Kishimoto intended the Jutsu to work, which is not something I can agree with. 



> He kept up with the Tsuchikage for a while even after escaping him. Akatsuchi did stop him but Deidara was already on the run before that, he immediately recognized the jutsu and was already leaving.


Oh he can fly at the same speed as Onoki if that's what you mean. Well at least when using that clay model.



> Deidara is a doton user, you don't think he has any dotons, but you are more than willing to grant one of Jiraiya's toads a raiton, hypocrisy's finest hour.


Difference is any fodder Raiton will diffuse any of Deidara's bombs. I'll gladly grant Deidara Fodder Doton wall, but that's gets steamrolled by Mei's massive water dragon. And that's not hypocrisy that is simply acknowledging the fact that Nendo is much weaker to it's opposing element than normal.



> Defending a village is not the same as defending herself. .


I agree it's not the same thing, defending an entire village is much harder, so she will defend just herself much easier.



> Multiple guided C2 bombs will do more damage to her individually since the bombs direct blast is focused on her. She doesn't have the speed to avoid it and the greater the damage, the greater the amount of time to heal


If you are really trying to make me believe that C2 Bombs > CST, you might as well just stop now. Yes Deidara will only have Tsunade as his target, while Pain CST was spread across the entire village, but even still CST is eons beyond C2 in power.



> Deidara was in a safe zone at the time and Sasuke was on his speed tier. The dragon will be formed first and Deidara will have time to prep for it.


First off speed tiers hardly matter unless there is a massive gap, that's what Hidan can keep up with Asuma and Gaara can react to CS2-Kimi despite very large gaps in their speed tiers. So that's irrelevant to me unless you can prove their is a massive gap between Sasuke and Mei, which I doubt because I really doubt that Mei would score lower than 3/3.5 in speed, which would be about equal with the gap between Gaara and Kimi or Asuma and Hidan. Even less so does speed matter when Sasuke hit Deidara with Eisou as he did so with a mere jumping attack. 

So again your asking me to believe Sasuke with a inferior Ranged Jutsu can deal with Deidara's flight but Mei with a vastly superior one can not. That's not something i'm going to agree with.



> What happens to Hiruzen if he is unable to determine that Deidara uses doton?


He'd probably loose, but I find the chances of the professor failing to figure it out slim.



> Execution has to do with if you can perform the jutsu, not how fast you can perform it.


Proficiency, "a high degree of competence or skill; expertise."

The more skilled you are, the faster you will perform an activity, end of story.



> Not quite, the manga says that Deidara is a Bakuton user and the databook lists it specifically as a kekkai genkai. I'm not sure where the confusion lies.




Right there the Data-book says it's a Kinjutsu for molding chakra into his creations, not a Kekkai Genkai. This makes sense with my explanation that the Kinjutsu is a Doton that allows Deidara to mold chakra into clay. While as a Bakuton user he can mold explosive chakra into his clay. 



> As for induction of magnetic field, many kids have done it without coils in several high school physics classes, me being one of them. As long as the electricity is being conducted by the metal it will forge a new magnetic field. What this means for Sasori is that this disruption will cause the sand to be come unstable fall to the ground.
> 
> After removing the current, the metal is now supercharged now, so it will take the kazekage puppet more effort in order to exert his control over it.


So your arguing that If I channeled .0001 of a volt through a pure Iron mass the size of the earth, it would change that object's magnetic field? 

Again coil aside, which I've never heard off before, the current still needs to be great enough to alter that specific object's magnetic field. In the case of the massive Iron sand, that needs to be one hell of a powerful current. Again assuming magic even works this way.



> Yeah, not saying any of this isn't possible but Deidara using C2 Dragon can target the masks with multiple guided bombs. Kakuzu is incapable of flight by himself, so he won't be a factor until the very end.


You do realize Gian can create multiple Raiton spears at once. Meaning he can use 1 Raiton spear to diffuse any C2 missile coming at him while hitting the Dragon with others, and immediately have the Katon and Fuuton mask ready to annihilate Deidara before he can create and hop on a new claymation.



> It was the reason why Gaara was caught, he couldn't keep up with Deidara with his sand, he boxed him in towards the end.


In no universe am I buying this he couldn't keep up with Deidara stuff when literally half a chapter into their fight Gaara had already crushed Deidara's arm. And again that was Start of Part II Gaara.



> C2 isn't going to be defended by a mere suiton, unless you are talking about Kisame's sharkbomb jutsu.


No i'm talking about a fucking massive Water Dragon.



> Not saying they don't, they just won't know to use it,





Ryuzaki said:


> and none of them have a counter for C4.







> even after the bomb detonates, how are they supposed to magically guess that C4 is a microscopic jutsu.


Why in the world would they wait till the bomb was detonated before diffusing it. That is expecting them to be utter morons of the highest caliber



> Sasori doesn't make it to C4, I think C2/C3 would get him eventually, especially if C2 was able to get Sasuke.


I repeat, "thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade" 

Sasori doesn't need to evade he can defend with Satetsu, even assuming he, nor the Kazekage, nor one of his other 200 puppets can't use Raiton to diffuse it, which almost seems maddeningly unlikely.



> All Deidara needs to do is disrupt Sasori's foothold which will cause him to lose control of his puppet


Huh? Why? 



> Anyone with sufficient elemental jutsu can win against Sasori, especially doton users. For instance, Yamato is a really great counter for Sasori.


I dare you to make a Yamato vs Sasori thread 



> Deidara does have the flight and speed advantage


Flight advantage is pointless as all of Kakuzu's attacks are long-range and at the very least the Fuuton masked beast can fly if not all of them, already discussed speed.



> I have to take that into account and the masks really don't have speed feats.


Kakashi being pressured by the masks attacks is more than enough to demonstrate their speed is sufficient here.



> I can see Deidara launching multiple C1/C2 bombs to keep them busy.


That all get show down by Gian or blow back in Deidara' face by Atsugi. Three massive elemental Jutsu are more than enough to take care of whatever bombs Deidara throws at him.



> Point 3 is baseless, you can't prove he isn't breathing.


I don't see how having a total lack of throat does not prove this. I also do not see how these scene, which very clearly illustrates he's just a mass of tentacles beneath his skin doesn't prove it ether:





> It's my ranking system, you are welcome to your opinion,


Sure it's your ranking system and i'm merely highlighting that it is inconsistent as you hold certain shinobi to one stand while holding others to another. Hence why when you say to me but Deidara can blow up a village and insert other character here can't, so Deidara is stronger, I don't take said comment seriously.



> but by putting Deidara above Kakuzu, Sasori and Kisame isn't to far gone of a conclusion if you compare the four. It's not like I put him in front of Itachi


Putting Deidara ahead of Sasori is objectively just as bad as putting him above Itachi, as both contradict the author's very clear intent.

Kakuzu and Deidara are close, it just seems to me only fair to give the one who doesn't have a huge weakness the edge. 

Kisame fluctuates depending on whether he has Bijuu Chakra and how much. But if your putting him above the Kisame that's hoped up on Hachibi chakra and was going toe to toe with Gated-Gai for a bit, that's ether a huge underestimation of Kisame or overestimation of Deidara.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sasuke said all of Deidara's seals were Doton, meaning that when he used the Katsu-seal it was a Doton seal or it was used in conjunction with other seals we as the readers didn't see that were Doton. Ether way you are contradicting the manga by claiming Deidara used seals that were not Doton.
> 
> Sasuke, "*All* of your jutsu so far have used the doton or *earth style signs*"


Again that last bit, was more of a confirmation, otherwise he would have used lightning element from the start, a point which you have been dancing around the last two days we've been having this debate.



Turrin said:


> Cool and Hidan has a heart and bleeds red, but doesn't need oxygen. Same thing with Sasori.


Awesome, but the person in question was Kakuzu, not Sasori or Hidan.



Turrin said:


> Again this is irrelevant when the Jutsu was stated to work based on being inhaled. Simply put your arguing against how Kishimoto intended the Jutsu to work, which is not something I can agree with.


What would happen to Kakuzu if he got C4-infused dust into his eyes and Deidara?  



Turrin said:


> Oh he can fly at the same speed as Onoki if that's what you mean. Well at least when using that clay model.


But the point is he can do it.



Turrin said:


> Difference is any fodder Raiton will diffuse any of Deidara's bombs. I'll gladly grant Deidara Fodder Doton wall, but that's gets steamrolled by Mei's massive water dragon. And that's not hypocrisy that is simply acknowledging the fact that Nendo is much weaker to it's opposing element than normal.


The sad part is that you'll immediately recognize that lightning greater than earth but when I state that earth greater than water... 




Turrin said:


> I agree it's not the same thing, defending an entire village is much harder, so she will defend just herself much easier.
> 
> If you are really trying to make me believe that C2 Bombs > CST, you might as well just stop now. Yes Deidara will only have Tsunade as his target, while Pain CST was spread across the entire village, but even still CST is eons beyond C2 in power.


Her lack of durability states otherwise, the focus of CST was the village not Tsunade.



Turrin said:


> First off speed tiers hardly matter unless there is a massive gap, that's what Hidan can keep up with Asuma and Gaara can react to CS2-Kimi despite very large gaps in their speed tiers. So that's irrelevant to me unless you can prove their is a massive gap between Sasuke and Mei, which I doubt because I really doubt that Mei would score lower than 3/3.5 in speed, which would be about equal with the gap between Gaara and Kimi or Asuma and Hidan. Even less so does speed matter when Sasuke hit Deidara with Eisou as he did so with a mere jumping attack.


Speed tiers do matter, considering Sasuke was in the same tier but also struggled against Deidara's bombs. Both of us would agree she's doesn't have reflexes like Hebi Sasuke w/sharingan and Tsunade is much slower, basically at the 3.5 speed tier. So yeah, it does play a huge role.



Turrin said:


> So again your asking me to believe Sasuke with a inferior Ranged Jutsu can deal with Deidara's flight but Mei with a vastly superior one can not. That's not something i'm going to agree with.


Deidara will still be able to react to it, that's all that matters. The argument for Mei was weak from the get go, you and I both know that once she uses that technique Deidara would hop onto another clay bird and stay out of her range, it's what he does best.



Turrin said:


> He'd probably loose, but I find the chances of the professor failing to figure it out slim.


If Deidara stays up in the sky, it'll be difficult for him to spot it, Sasuke managed to see it from a considerable distance, only because of the sharingan.



Turrin said:


> Proficiency, "a high degree of competence or skill; expertise."
> 
> The more skilled you are, the faster you will perform an activity, end of story.


The databook never stated seals accounted for speed, you're grasping at straws and making stuff up. The seals category only encompasses knowledge and proficiency = jutsu execution (i.e. are they able to execute a certain technique) not how fast they can but if they can. 



Turrin said:


> Right there the Data-book says it's a Kinjutsu for molding chakra into his creations, not a Kekkai Genkai. This makes sense with my explanation that the Kinjutsu is a Doton that allows Deidara to mold chakra into clay. While as a Bakuton user he can mold explosive chakra into his clay.


Neither of us are going to convince the other, if it was awarded to him posthumously in the databook *alone*, I would not have pushed this point so much (e.g. much like Jiraiya's sage-sensing ability). 




Turrin said:


> So your arguing that If I channeled .0001 of a volt through a pure Iron mass the size of the earth, it would change that object's magnetic field?
> 
> Again coil aside, which I've never heard off before, the current still needs to be great enough to alter that specific object's magnetic field. In the case of the massive Iron sand, that needs to be one hell of a powerful current. Again assuming magic even works this way.


We have a quantifiable source though, chakra. The amount of chakra put in 



Turrin said:


> You do realize Gian can create multiple Raiton spears at once. Meaning he can use 1 Raiton spear to diffuse any C2 missile coming at him while hitting the Dragon with others, and immediately have the Katon and Fuuton mask ready to annihilate Deidara before he can create and hop on a new claymation.


Yes but Deidara can just make more, the clay dragon is also a bomb itself. After it's initial spear, it had to wait before it could be used again.



Turrin said:


> In no universe am I buying this he couldn't keep up with Deidara stuff when literally half a chapter into their fight Gaara had already crushed Deidara's arm. And again that was Start of Part II Gaara.


Deidara let that happen on purpose so he could infuse his miniature bombs.



Turrin said:


> No i'm talking about a fucking massive Water Dragon.


Bigger isn't faster, Deidara could avoid it via flying or react with an earth element.



Turrin said:


>


My apologies, that was my mistake, they do have a counter, but I meant to convey that I don't see them resorting to it.



Turrin said:


> Why in the world would they wait till the bomb was detonated before diffusing it. That is expecting them to be utter morons of the highest caliber


Assuming he hasn't figured it out, then why wouldn't he run for the hills like anyone else?



Turrin said:


> I repeat, "thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade"
> 
> Sasori doesn't need to evade he can defend with Satetsu, even assuming he, nor the Kazekage, nor one of his other 200 puppets can't use Raiton to diffuse it, which almost seems maddeningly unlikely.


The point of mentioning Sasuke's feats (or lack of thereof in this case) is to substantiate that despite his finesse, even he was caught in it. The others who are slower than he is, would definitely be caught in the explosion.

Satetsu is essentially only used for puppet users, the purpose of the technique is stop the movement of puppets. I don't see Sasori trying to use it as an offensive weapon against Deidara, who would likely increase his range the moment Sasori brought out the Kazekage. 



Turrin said:


> Huh? Why?


It'll be difficult for him to balance himself and the puppet if the ground is always in flux. He'll have to be on the move, at all times, which means he won't be able to counter attack as quickly.



Turrin said:


> I dare you to make a Yamato vs Sasori thread


We''ll get to it, don't you worry.



Turrin said:


> Flight advantage is pointless as all of Kakuzu's attacks are long-range and at the very least the Fuuton masked beast can fly if not all of them, already discussed speed.


Yes but Deidara's bombs are faster and if there are multiple the masks will be avoiding them or countering (e.g. leaving them open for another barage).



Turrin said:


> Kakashi being pressured by the masks attacks is more than enough to demonstrate their speed is sufficient here.


Kakashi was on the defensive and he continuously put himself in harms way to cover Team 10. Furthermore, he was fighting like 4 vs 1.



Turrin said:


> That all get show down by Gian or blow back in Deidara' face by Atsugi. Three massive elemental Jutsu are more than enough to take care of whatever bombs Deidara throws at him.


Not saying they wouldn't, but Deidara can just make more and the masks don't continuously launch jutsu one after the other.



Turrin said:


> I don't see how having a total lack of throat does not prove this. I also do not see how these scene, which very clearly illustrates he's just a mass of tentacles beneath his skin doesn't prove it ether:


The tentacles could just be the skin stitching in front, you don't necessarily know what he looks like underneath. That's the issue I have with that. 



Turrin said:


> Sure it's your ranking system and i'm merely highlighting that it is inconsistent as you hold certain shinobi to one stand while holding others to another. Hence why when you say to me but Deidara can blow up a village and insert other character here can't, so Deidara is stronger, I don't take said comment seriously.


You don't think Deidara is suited to lead mid-Akatsuki tier?

Don't know what you have against him.



Turrin said:


> Putting Deidara ahead of Sasori is objectively just as bad as putting him above Itachi, as both contradict the author's very clear intent.
> 
> Kakuzu and Deidara are close, it just seems to me only fair to give the one who doesn't have a huge weakness the edge.
> 
> Kisame fluctuates depending on whether he has Bijuu Chakra and how much. But if your putting him above the Kisame that's hoped up on Hachibi chakra and was going toe to toe with Gated-Gai for a bit, that's ether a huge underestimation of Kisame or overestimation of Deidara.


The author contradicted himself in the manga, by feats Deidara has far more destructive potential and honestly, with the aerial advantage he has too much going for him. Sure, Sasori has iron sand but I don't think it will stop C3 and C2 is a guided one.

Kisame is below him for that very reason, he fluctuates based on his opponent, if he's fighting Killer Bee then his chakra would be through the roof and sure he deserves the go ahead but even then a match with Deidara would be more of a fight with attrition as opposed to an actual fight.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 2, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Again that last bit, was more of a confirmation,
> .


Dude he SAYS ALL. Your Arguing it's not ALL. Therefore your calling Sasuke a liar.



> otherwise he would have used lightning element from the start, a point which you have been dancing around the last two days we've been having this debate.


He did use Raiton from the start. What he needed to confirm is whether Raiton could diffuse all of Deidara's bombs. Because again Nendo is unique in just how weak it is to it's opposing element.



> Awesome, but the person in question was Kakuzu, not Sasori or Hidan.


Cool, and your argument was that since Kakuzu bleeds and has a heart, he must breath. I just gave you two examples that disprove that notion.



> What would happen to Kakuzu if he got C4-infused dust into his eyes and Deidara?


Irrelevant, Jutsu doesn't work that way. 



> But the point is he can do it.


I agreed with you



> The sad part is that you'll immediately recognize that lightning greater than earth but when I state that earth greater than water...


Are you saying all elemental Jutsu are as weak to their opposing element as Nendo is to Raiton?



> Her lack of durability states otherwise,


When has Tsunade using Katsuya as a shield shown a lack of durability? 



> the focus of CST was the village not Tsunade.


-copy- I agree it's not the same thing, defending an entire village is much harder, so she will defend just herself much easier -paste-



> Speed tiers do matter, considering Sasuke was in the same tier but also struggled against Deidara's bombs. Both of us would agree she's doesn't have reflexes like Hebi Sasuke w/sharingan and Tsunade is much slower, basically at the 3.5 speed tier. So yeah, it does play a huge role.


-copy- thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade -paste-

My argument has never been that Mei and Tsunade will evade the bombs, it's that they will defend themselves, so this point you keep recycling is moot.



> Deidara will still be able to react to it, that's all that matters. The argument for Mei was weak from the get go, you and I both know that once she uses that technique Deidara would hop onto another clay bird and stay out of her range, it's what he does best


Cool and by the time he hops off his C2-Dragon, creates another C1 mount, and hops onto it, Mei could easily redirect the Water-Dragon to interrupt him.



> If Deidara stays up in the sky, it'll be difficult for him to spot it, Sasuke managed to see it from a considerable distance, only because of the sharingan.


Deidara tends to start matchs close to his enemy. I also think there is a good chance the Professor just knows about Nendo the same way he knew about Jinton and many other Jutsu. I also think even w/o seeing Deidara's seals he could hypothesis that a famous Iwagakuru Ninja's CLAY Bombs could potentially be a Doton, and try using Raiton against them. 



> The databook never stated seals accounted for speed, you're grasping at straws and making stuff up. The seals category only encompasses knowledge and proficiency = jutsu execution (i.e. are they able to execute a certain technique) not how fast they can but if they can.


Are you saying the more proficiently you can execute something doesn't effect your speed?

Also let's pretend that the seal stat doesn't reflect spd. Where exactly does that leave Deidara, with no notable hype or feats as far as hand-seal spd goes, trying to trip up Kages? I still don't like those odds.



> Neither of us are going to convince the other, if it was awarded to him posthumously in the databook alone, I would not have pushed this point so much (e.g. much like Jiraiya's sage-sensing ability).


Where was it awarded to him?

Plus let's pretend for a second that it is a Bakuton technique and that it is weak to an Raiton because it's made of Doton + ?. Cool than what happens if it's made of say Doton + Fuuton, as one half is strong against Raiton while the other half is weak to Raiton? Again your not offering any explanation for how this works or why it was never exploited outside of Nendo in the manga cannnon.



> We have a quantifiable source though, chakra. The amount of chakra put in


Okay cool, so the amount of chakra put in is what matters. Than how many Shinobi are going to be able to use a Raiton that's packing more chakra than Satetsu with the combined chakras of Sasori and Sandaime-Kazekage? 

And how is that at all comparable to Nendo which can literally be diffused by any fodder raiton?



> Yes but Deidara can just make more, the clay dragon is also a bomb itself. After it's initial spear, it had to wait before it could be used again.


And when Deidara is doing that he gets wasted by a consecutive Fuuton or Katon attack. There is too much additional fire power for Deidara to deal with while having his bombs diffused by Raiton.



> Deidara let that happen on purpose so he could infuse his miniature bombs.


Nowhere is that stated. Deidara took advantage of the oppertunity, nothing more.



> Bigger isn't faster, Deidara could avoid it via flying or react with an earth element.


It cross a huge distance in an insane brief period of time, so it's both big and fast.



> Assuming he hasn't figured it out, then why wouldn't he run for the hills like anyone else?


Why wouldn't he just diffuse it with Raiton?



> The point of mentioning Sasuke's feats (or lack of thereof in this case) is to substantiate that despite his finesse, even he was caught in it. The others who are slower than he is, would definitely be caught in the explosion.



-copy- thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade 

My argument has never been that they will evade the bombs, so the point is moot
-paste-




> Satetsu is essentially only used for puppet users, the purpose of the technique is stop the movement of puppets. I don't see Sasori trying to use it as an offensive weapon against Deidara, who would likely increase his range the moment Sasori brought out the Kazekage.


No where is it stated that Satetsu is only used for puppet users. It was the main weapon of the strongest Kazekage in the history of Sunagakuru and feared as Sunagakuru's greatest weapon. I really doubt that would be the case if it was only effective against puppet users. 



> It'll be difficult for him to balance himself and the puppet if the ground is always in flux. He'll have to be on the move, at all times, which means he won't be able to counter attack as quickly.


He's as highly trained ninja, this isn't doing shit.



> Yes but Deidara's bombs are faster and if there are multiple the masks will be avoiding them or countering (e.g. leaving them open for another barage).


Only one mask is needed to counter all of Deidara's bombs, and that is Gain-Mask at worst it would take 2 masks the Fuuton and Gain masks, leaving the Katon free to attack Deidara directly.



> Kakashi was on the defensive and he continuously put himself in harms way to cover Team 10. Furthermore, he was fighting like 4 vs 1.


Deidara will also be fighting multiple masks and Kakuzu at the same time, which is the whole danger of Kakuzu that he overwhelms with the number of attacks he's capable off.



> Not saying they wouldn't, but Deidara can just make more and the masks don't continuously launch jutsu one after the other.


There is nothing stopping the masks from blasting more elemental Jutsu just as much as Deidara can make more bombs. 



> The tentacles could just be the skin stitching in front, you don't necessarily know what he looks like underneath. That's the issue I have with that.


We saw them cut through his body where his lunges would be and there were only tentacles. This has become silly.



> You don't think Deidara is suited to lead mid-Akatsuki tier?
> 
> Don't know what you have against him.


You use this word Mid-Akatsuki Tier like I know what it means.

What I think is this

Obito > Deidara
Nagato > Deidara
Itachi > Deidara
Orochimaru > Deidara
Sasori > Deidara
Kisame w/ Bijuu Chakra > Deidara
Sasuke > Deidara
Kakuzu >= Deidara
Deidara > Kisame w/o Bijuu chakra
Deidara > Hidan
Deidara > Past Members Kakuzu stole the hearts from
Deidara > Juugo
Deidara > Suigetsu
Deidara > Karin

Konan and Zetsu aren't rankable.



> The author contradicted himself in the manga, by feats Deidara has far more destructive potential and honestly, with the aerial advantage he has too much going for him. Sure, Sasori has iron sand but I don't think it will stop C3 and C2 is a guided one.


And I see Sasori's feats as way better than Deidara's, only difference here is I have cannon backing me, while your arguing against it.



> Kisame is below him for that very reason, he fluctuates based on his opponent, if he's fighting Killer Bee then his chakra would be through the roof and sure he deserves the go ahead but even then a match with Deidara would be more of a fight with attrition as opposed to an actual fight.


If you want to look at it that way that's fine, I can respect that. All I'm saying is that Kisame w/ Bijuu Chakra is stronger than him.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 3, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Dude he SAYS ALL. Your Arguing it's not ALL. Therefore your calling Sasuke a liar.


Again, he explains immediately right after, it was all a hunch and that he confirmed it when he saw Deidara's seal. The point of reference was to the single panel where he was molding Garuda. 



Turrin said:


> He did use Raiton from the start. What he needed to confirm is whether Raiton could diffuse all of Deidara's bombs. Because again Nendo is unique in just how weak it is to it's opposing element.


The scan you posted before was from his first encounter where you implied that Sasuke saw his seals, which I contend saying that all he saw was the "katsu" part, not the snake-based doton seal.



Turrin said:


> Cool, and your argument was that since Kakuzu bleeds and has a heart, he must breath. I just gave you two examples that disprove that notion.


Sasori was explained to have no body at all, the only reason he had a heart was to utilize his chakra. Kakuzu on the other hand, has a regular body except with the threads.



Turrin said:


> Irrelevant, Jutsu doesn't work that way.


You're smart enough to know what is a reasonable application and extrapolation of the jutsu.  



Turrin said:


> Are you saying all elemental Jutsu are as weak to their opposing element as Nendo is to Raiton?


That's basically what the elemental wheel was designed to be. Nendo has an earth element portion to it, which lightning is superior to. The same concept applies while using water and earth, where earth is superior to water.



Turrin said:


> When has Tsunade using Katsuya as a shield shown a lack of durability?


She's never done it in battle before and didn't opt to use Katsuyu when she was facing 5 large Susano'o clones. 



Turrin said:


> -copy- I agree it's not the same thing, defending an entire village is much harder, so she will defend just herself much easier -paste-


Not what I'm referring to, the bombs will do more damage to Tsunade since she is exact target. Multiple guided bombs would result in her pushing her regeneration techniques to the limit, it will consume more chakra, the greater the damage. Deidara is a really bad match up for her. 



Turrin said:


> -copy- thee only reason Sasuke had an issue is because he didn't have to just react to the Missiles he had to evade the entire blast radius of each bomb. This isn't necessary if you can simply defend against the Missile, rather than needing to evade -paste-


And everyone else will have to do the same but with slower attributes and no sharingan to boot i.e. they will be caught in the blast.



Turrin said:


> My argument has never been that Mei and Tsunade will evade the bombs, it's that they will defend themselves, so this point you keep recycling is moot.


You went out of your way to reference a post not made by you to support Mei's speed and you still are trying to prove that there isn't much of a difference between 4.5 and 3.5 speed tiers. 



Turrin said:


> Cool and by the time he hops off his C2-Dragon, creates another C1 mount, and hops onto it, Mei could easily redirect the Water-Dragon to interrupt him.


Deidara was able to fool Sasuke with it, odds are he'll do worse with Mei, who cannot see chakra with her eyes.



Turrin said:


> Deidara tends to start matchs close to his enemy. I also think there is a good chance the Professor just knows about Nendo the same way he knew about Jinton and many other Jutsu. I also think even w/o seeing Deidara's seals he could hypothesis that a famous Iwagakuru Ninja's CLAY Bombs could potentially be a Doton, and try using Raiton against them.


Given Hiruzen's age and experience, I can respect that last sentence of your post but it's also contingent upon him seeing the explosions in action, he has to make that guess and make it quick, since he has no viable defense against it. 



Turrin said:


> Are you saying the more proficiently you can execute something doesn't effect your speed?
> 
> Also let's pretend that the seal stat doesn't reflect spd. Where exactly does that leave Deidara, with no notable hype or feats as far as hand-seal spd goes, trying to trip up Kages? I still don't like those odds.


Yes, you don't need to swift in order to proficient. As long as you are able to do it, it means you are proficient. 

His speed is 4.5, which is much faster (than what you credited him with before) and given the distance between him and the other shinobi, it's likely they won't be able to see him making the seal from that distance.

But in all honesty, I am having my doubts that he even uses any form of seals in order to knead chakra for C1/C2. In all panels that I have gone through, it seems he has this portion set on cruise control, much in the way an expert user of a jutsu would.

C3 and higher would probably require seals.


Turrin said:


> Where was it awarded to him?


The manga was where it was awarded to him and then the databook explained what bakuton was.



Turrin said:


> Plus let's pretend for a second that it is a Bakuton technique and that it is weak to an Raiton because it's made of Doton + ?. Cool than what happens if it's made of say Doton + Fuuton, as one half is strong against Raiton while the other half is weak to Raiton? Again your not offering any explanation for how this works or why it was never exploited outside of Nendo in the manga cannnon.


Bakuton is a mixture of doton and raiton and in Deidara's case it's weak to lightning because the latter portion is increased more than the required amount for the jutsu to work properly. This is seen when Sasuke explains how he diffused his bombs, I'm assuming it requires a small amount of charge mixed within the clay in order to work properly, heavily increasing it would nullify it all together.



Turrin said:


> Okay cool, so the amount of chakra put in is what matters. Than how many Shinobi are going to be able to use a Raiton that's packing more chakra than Satetsu with the combined chakras of Sasori and Sandaime-Kazekage?
> 
> And how is that at all comparable to Nendo which can literally be diffused by any fodder raiton?


In the case of satetsu, the size of the sand actually works in benefit to the raiton users, because it'll be easier to apply a raiton jutsu to nullify it and wouldn't require as much chakra. 

In essence, all that is required is raiton flow, the moment their is conduction the previous magnetic field is abolished. Establishing the flow is important for dispelling the jutsu, because the mechanics of nature depend on it.

This last part is easier for shinobi that have displayed raiton based techniques (e.g. Raikages, Kakashi, Sasuke, Darui). However, shinobi who have trained with the element could do it is well so long as they recognize it's a weakness.



Turrin said:


> And when Deidara is doing that he gets wasted by a consecutive Fuuton or Katon attack. There is too much additional fire power for Deidara to deal with while having his bombs diffused by Raiton.


Deidara plays it shrewd as well, he uses clay clones and exploding bunshins in order to trap his opponents. 



Turrin said:


> Nowhere is that stated. Deidara took advantage of the oppertunity, nothing more.



he chose to shoot at Bijuudama at it

"I planned it so that it would go that way" - Can't be much more clear than that.



Turrin said:


> It cross a huge distance in an insane brief period of time, so it's both big and fast.


It doesn't seem that way, Madara seems to be closer, but unlike Madara, Deidara can easily back away on his clay bird. Madara didn't have that luxury because Jinton was in the way. 



Turrin said:


> Why wouldn't he just diffuse it with Raiton?


How would he know how to when Deidara blows it up, he'd just assume it is a dud, same as Sasuke. Also, at that point, Sasuke already figured out Deidara's technique but he also opted to run instead of attempting to diffuse it.



Turrin said:


> No where is it stated that Satetsu is only used for puppet users. It was the main weapon of the strongest Kazekage in the history of Sunagakuru and feared as Sunagakuru's greatest weapon. I really doubt that would be the case if it was only effective against puppet users.


"In particular, this is a powerful jutsu against puppet users because it renders their puppets unable to fight."  - Databook



Turrin said:


> He's as highly trained ninja, this isn't doing shit.


It's still a hindrance and would inhibit his performance. Doton, raiton, and suiton either interrupt his fighting style or take away powerful tools in his arsenal.



Turrin said:


> Only one mask is needed to counter all of Deidara's bombs, and that is Gain-Mask at worst it would take 2 masks the Fuuton and Gain masks, leaving the Katon free to attack Deidara directly.


Deidara would just target all the masks while the raiton one diffuses one portion of it, the others would still get destroyed. 



Turrin said:


> Deidara will also be fighting multiple masks and Kakuzu at the same time, which is the whole danger of Kakuzu that he overwhelms with the number of attacks he's capable off.


Kakuzu is grounded, he cannot fly, so I don't see him being a factor, just the masks.



Turrin said:


> There is nothing stopping the masks from blasting more elemental Jutsu just as much as Deidara can make more bombs.


Up until Deidara makes C4, which would end it. Deidara and Kakuzu would duke it out but I see C4 as being the clincher for Deidara. You seem to believe he can't breathe.



Turrin said:


> We saw them cut through his body where his lunges would be and there were only tentacles. This has become silly.


I'm calling it as I'm seeing it, the proof you have offered here, doesn't really establish your claim. The threads seem to stick superficially and then there is the obvious stuff (e.g. blood).



Turrin said:


> You use this word Mid-Akatsuki Tier like I know what it means.
> 
> What I think is this
> 
> ...



*Spoiler*: _Here's my ranking list for a refreshers_ 






Ryuzaki said:


> 1. Obito
> 2. Nagato
> 3. Itachi
> 4. Deidara
> ...





I assumed you had seen my list, which is why I used that terminology. Besides, I only disagree with the bold ones. Furthermore, I went on to state that the ones in red, can actually be put in any order but I gave Deidara the go ahead.

I am assuming you are only talking about Orochimaru w/ET Hokages, I don't see Orochimaru winning against C4 by himself or the version of Orochimaru we saw post-Hiruzen fight.



Turrin said:


> And I see Sasori's feats as way better than Deidara's, only difference here is I have cannon backing me, while your arguing against it.


I don't really see how Sasori can actually reach Deidara let alone defeat him, he's got an okay arsenal but seeing as how by flying Deidara negates much of it. People want to cling to that statement that Deidara made (of his own will) but I see it as more to separate Kakashi from Naruto. 



Turrin said:


> If you want to look at it that way that's fine, I can respect that. All I'm saying is that Kisame w/ Bijuu Chakra is stronger than him.


Fair enough


----------



## Turrin (Jul 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Again, he explains immediately right after, it was all a hunch and that he confirmed it when he saw Deidara's seal. The point of reference was to the single panel where he was molding Garuda. Cool and unless your calling Sasuke a liar, that had to be Doton seals as he said ALL Deidara's seals are Doton.


Let me ask you a question, what is the meaning of the word "all"?



> Sasori was explained to have no body at all, the only reason he had a heart was to utilize his chakra. Kakuzu on the other hand, has a regular body except with the threads.


Hidan's body is more ""regular"" than Kakuzu's and yet he still doesn't need to breath due to his Jutsu. So again your point is moot.



> You're smart enough to know what is a reasonable application and extrapolation of the jutsu.


It's not reasonable to go against the author's intent.



> That's basically what the elemental wheel was designed to be. Nendo has an earth element portion to it, which lightning is superior to. The same concept applies while using water and earth, where earth is superior to water.


Incorrect. Normally for elemental weaknesses to come into play the two elemental techniques need to be off similar "level":


However in Nendo's case, the Raiton technique does not need to be the same level. Literally any amount of Raiton can diffuse even Deidara's most powerful bomb CO.



> She's never done it in battle before and didn't opt to use Katsuyu when she was facing 5 large Susano'o clones.


The village was battling Pain, so yes she has opted to do it in battle before. And she obviously didn't need it against the clones, as she was still alive and kicking at the end of that.



> Not what I'm referring to, the bombs will do more damage to Tsunade since she is exact target. Multiple guided bombs would result in her pushing her regeneration techniques to the limit, it will consume more chakra, the greater the damage. Deidara is a really bad match up for her.


Again if you goal is to make me believe that C2 bombs are doing more damage than CST, we'll need to agree to disagree, because I don't see C2 bombs being even in the same universe as CST. And if Tsunade had enough chakra to defend every man, woman, and child in the entire village from CST, I don't see chakra being an issue.



> And everyone else will have to do the same but with slower attributes and no sharingan to boot i.e. they will be caught in the blast.


-copy- My argument has never been that they will evade the bombs, it's that they will defend themselves, so this point you keep recycling is moot. -paste-



> You went out of your way to reference a post not made by you to support Mei's speed and you still are trying to prove that there isn't much of a difference between 4.5 and 3.5 speed tiers.


I went out of my way to show Mei's speed is good enough where she shouldn't be drastically lower than a 4.5, I.E. that she's not a 2 in spd or something, as well as to show her Jutsu execution speed. The 1 point difference between characters not making much of a difference is an outright fact, that we've seen again and again.



> Deidara was able to fool Sasuke with it, odds are he'll do worse with Mei, who cannot see chakra with her eyes.


Huh? Sasuke hit Deidara with Shuriken after destroying the C2 dragon and before Deidara could fly away on another mount, so that's just outright not true.



> Given Hiruzen's age and experience, I can respect that last sentence of your post but it's also contingent upon him seeing the explosions in action, he has to make that guess and make it quick, since he has no viable defense against it.


Deidara starts w/ C1. Hiruzen can certainly defend C1 bombs with Doton Walls, Enma, KB, Fuuton, Shuriken KB, etc... he has tons of options to deal with C1. By the time Deidara moves to C2, Hiruzen will likely already known about Nendo's weakness.



> Yes, you don't need to swift in order to proficient. As long as you are able to do it, it means you are proficient.


Your dancing around the question, so I ask again -copy- Are you saying the more proficiently you can execute something doesn't effect your speed? -paste-



> His speed is 4.5, which is much faster (than what you credited him with before) and given the distance between him and the other shinobi, it's likely they won't be able to see him making the seal from that distance.


If you want to go by physical speed, than Gaara with a 3 in speed was able to follow the movements of Kimi perfectly fine, who has a 4.5 in spd just like Deidara and Curse-Seal to enhance it. So if that's the metric you want to use than everyone with a 3 in spd and above can easily follow Deidara's movements with their eyes including his hand movements, and that means every Kage we've seen can see is heals w/o issue.



> But in all honesty, I am having my doubts that he even uses any form of seals in order to knead chakra for C1/C2. In all panels that I have gone through, it seems he has this portion set on cruise control, much in the way an expert user of a jutsu would.


The Katsu Seal, is well a Seal. And according to Sasuke all of Deidara's Seals were Doton. So unless Sasuke is a liar, that would include the Katsu-Seal.



> The manga was where it was awarded to him and then the databook explained what bakuton was.


In the manga Hanzo just said Deidara can use Bakuton, he didn't say the technique for molding chakra into clay was Bakuton. And nether does the DB. So if that's all you got, than it's nothing relevant to the discussion here.



> Bakuton is a mixture of doton and raiton and in Deidara's case it's weak to lightning because the latter portion is increased more than the required amount for the jutsu to work properly. This is seen when Sasuke explains how he diffused his bombs, I'm assuming it requires a small amount of charge mixed within the clay in order to work properly, heavily increasing it would nullify it all together.


Problematic part of this is that a large amount of Raiton isn't needed to render Deidara's bombs useless, any amount even a minuscule amount will. 



> In the case of satetsu, the size of the sand actually works in benefit to the raiton users, because it'll be easier to apply a raiton jutsu to nullify it and wouldn't require as much chakra.
> In essence, all that is required is raiton flow, the moment their is conduction the previous magnetic field is abolished. Establishing the flow is important for dispelling the jutsu, because the mechanics of nature depend on it.
> This last part is easier for shinobi that have displayed raiton based techniques (e.g. Raikages, Kakashi, Sasuke, Darui). However, shinobi who have trained with the element could do it is well so long as they recognize it's a weakness.


So again your back to claiming that a current of any strength can alter the magnetic field of any object. I.E. the current produced by a tazer can alter the magnetic field of a slab of Iron larger than 10 suns according to you.



> Deidara plays it shrewd as well, he uses clay clones and exploding bunshins in order to trap his opponents.


Shrewdness has nothing to do with my point that Deidara can't handle the number of Kakuzu's attacks.



> 14
> 
> "I planned it so that it would go that way" - Can't be much more clear than that.


He planned that Gaara would use his gourd sand to block his attack after C3. He did not plan that Gaara would crush his arm with gourd sand, rather he outright admits that was simply bad luck for Gaara.



> It doesn't seem that way, Madara seems to be closer, but unlike Madara, Deidara can easily back away on his clay bird. Madara didn't have that luxury because Jinton was in the way.


Yeah sorry, but the distance between Madara and the Gokage was >>>>>>>> than the slightly greater than 5m length of Eisou between Sasuke and Deidara.



> How would he know how to when Deidara blows it up, he'd just assume it is a dud, same as Sasuke.


So again we go back to why the hell would he be so moronic to allow Deidara to blow up the bomb first? The moment Deidara starts spitting out a large bomb, Kakuzu will be using Gian on it to diffuse it, well before it explodes.



> Also, at that point, Sasuke already figured out Deidara's technique but he also opted to run instead of attempting to diffuse it.


Sasuke had a totally different objective, he intentionally sought to use C4 against Deidara, to trick Deidara into thinking he won and ambush him. That's why he left C4 alone. Also Sasuke didn't need to diffuse it because he could just avoid it.



> In particular, this is a powerful jutsu against puppet users because it renders their puppets unable to fight." - Databook


Being more powerful against puppet users, does not mean it is only effective against puppet users. So the point your making is moot.



> It's still a hindrance and would inhibit his performance. Doton, raiton, and suiton either interrupt his fighting style or take away powerful tools in his arsenal.


Most Elemental Jutsu will be casually defended by Iron-Sand, so no I disagree.



> Deidara would just target all the masks while the raiton one diffuses one portion of it, the others would still get destroyed.


Again the Raiton mask can use multiple Raiton Spears at once, so that's not happening.



> Kakuzu is grounded, he cannot fly, so I don't see him being a factor, just the masks.


That's still 4v1, and he has to be warry of Kakuzu just in case as well as use bombs to bring him down, so his attention is still split 5 ways, and Deidara is not nearly as skillful as Kakashi.



> Up until Deidara makes C4, which would end it. Deidara and Kakuzu would duke it out but I see C4 as being the clincher for Deidara. You seem to believe he can't breathe.


I also believe Kakuzu could potentially kill Deidara before C4 comes out and that if it does Gian diffuses C4 before it explodes. So whether Kakuzu can breath or not isn't really relevant in a 1v1 match, perhaps in a Team match where others can distract Kakuzu until C4 explodes, it would be important, but 1v1, Kakuzu simply diffuses it.



> I'm calling it as I'm seeing it, the proof you have offered here, doesn't really establish your claim. The threads seem to stick superficially and then there is the obvious stuff (e.g. blood).


 He doesn't have a throat to intake oxygen in long-range mode and Kotetsu cut through him where his lungs should be and there was only tentacles there. How does that not prove it? 



> I assumed you had seen my list, which is why I used that terminology.


I had not.



> Besides, I only disagree with the bold ones. Furthermore, I went on to state that the ones in red, can actually be put in any order but I gave Deidara the go ahead..


Your disagreeing with the clear intent of the author in the case of Sasori and you must know that deep down. 

In the case of Orochimaru, every incarnation of him is stronger sans ones where he has body failure or soul ripped arms as handicaps. If Deidara even survives to C4, it's countered by Orochimaru's Raiton, and no I'm not willing to believe that a Ninjutsu freak like Orochimaru, w/ 50+ years of exp, and having worked with Akatsuki before, wouldn't know nendo's weakness to Raiton by the time Deidara pulled out C4. So we might as well agree to disagree right now if that's your argument.

Kakuzu is more debatable, as you seem to admit by putting his name in red with Deidara's. Except I give Kakuzu the go ahead over Deidara, instead of the other way around because Kakuzu doesn't have a crippling weakness.



> I don't really see how Sasori can actually reach Deidara let alone defeat him, he's got an okay arsenal but seeing as how by flying Deidara negates much of it.


Satetsu reaches Deidara and Sasori's puppets can also fly. Flight is zero issue for Sasori.



> People want to cling to that statement that Deidara made (of his own will) but I see it as more to separate Kakashi from Naruto.


I don't accept fanfiction as a valid argument. You and I both know that if that was Kishimoto's intent he would have had it stated, Kishi is not a subtle man.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 4, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Let me ask you a question, what is the meaning of the word "all"?


As I stated before, he said "All" as a confirmation after confirming his hunch, otherwise the match would have gone differently.


Turrin said:


> Hidan's body is more ""regular"" than Kakuzu's and yet he still doesn't need to breath due to his Jutsu. So again your point is moot.


Not at all, you have to prove without a reasonable doubt that Kakuzu cannot breathe whatsoever, the burden of proof falls on to you. Your claim is really weak, because you see threads coming out of his mouth, you assume he lacks a throat. 

While there is clear cut proof that he has a stable oxygen supply to breathe (e.g. bright red blood). For a guy who likes to think outside the box, you are going to far with this, especially when there is little to base it on.



Turrin said:


> It's not reasonable to go against the author's intent.


I'm sure the author would not mind a little math, you make it sound like I'm fabricating a new jutsu, whereas I'm just taking into account something the author explained in full detail and playing out a scenario. You are more than welcome to disagree.

What would happen to Kakuzu if he got C4-infused dust into his eyes and Deidara?



Turrin said:


> Incorrect. Normally for elemental weaknesses to come into play the two elemental techniques need to be off similar "level":


I don't understand what you are trying to prove here, you seem to think that Deidara who is an expert at the earth element would be in some sort of bind to use an earth-based jutsu. If he sees a water technique coming at him, he's obviously going to resort to an earth jutsu. Plus, he's more than well experienced in the earth element in order to guard against any of Mei's Suitons.



Turrin said:


> The village was battling Pain, so yes she has opted to do it in battle before. And she obviously didn't need it against the clones, as she was still alive and kicking at the end of that.


Excuse me? The battle against Pain, all Katsuyu was doing was healing villagers and other fodder shinobi. Tsunade didn't bring out to the battlefield in order to fight Pain or in the battle against Madara. So, she's not going to do that against Deidara.



Turrin said:


> Again if you goal is to make me believe that C2 bombs are doing more damage than CST, we'll need to agree to disagree, because I don't see C2 bombs being even in the same universe as CST. And if Tsunade had enough chakra to defend every man, woman, and child in the entire village from CST, I don't see chakra being an issue.


The point you are ignoring is that she is going to get hurt, she's going to get damaged and then she'll recover from it. The damage is going to happen to Tsunade regardless, as it won't make a crater like CST but C2 is more potent to the individual in this case, since she is the target.



Turrin said:


> The 1 point difference between characters not making much of a difference is an outright fact, that we've seen again and again.


The examples you used to substantiate this belief is entirely based on shinobi who were fighting a defensive battle or shinobi fighting more than one person or shinobi who have a pre-existing medical condition.



Turrin said:


> Huh? Sasuke hit Deidara with Shuriken after destroying the C2 dragon and before Deidara could fly away on another mount, so that's just outright not true.
> 
> Shrewdness has nothing to do with my point that Deidara can't handle the number of Kakuzu's attacks.


So Sasuke wasn't fooled by the clay clone on two different occasions while Deidara was on the mount? The same thing would happen to Mei. That's definitely a couple of points for Deidara in the department of shrewdness.



Turrin said:


> Deidara starts w/ C1. Hiruzen can certainly defend C1 bombs with Doton Walls, Enma, KB, Fuuton, Shuriken KB, etc... he has tons of options to deal with C1. By the time Deidara moves to C2, Hiruzen will likely already known about Nendo's weakness.


He does which Hiruzen would be able to stop, I agree, however, I don't really see Hiruzen figuring it out before Deidara is airborne. 



Turrin said:


> Your dancing around the question, so I ask again -copy- Are you saying the more proficiently you can execute something doesn't effect your speed? -paste-


You don't need to be swift in order to be proficient, which is what the category accounts for. Take it how you like.



Turrin said:


> If you want to go by physical speed, than Gaara with a 3 in speed was able to follow the movements of Kimi perfectly fine, who has a 4.5 in spd just like Deidara and Curse-Seal to enhance it. So if that's the metric you want to use than everyone with a 3 in spd and above can easily follow Deidara's movements with their eyes including his hand movements, and that means every Kage we've seen can see is heals w/o issue.


Kimi was also sick and beyond exhausted at that point, so he wasn't performing at his peak, so this is baseless.



Turrin said:


> The Katsu Seal, is well a Seal. And according to Sasuke all of Deidara's Seals were Doton. So unless Sasuke is a liar, that would include the Katsu-Seal.


Wrong, the katsu seal is a standard seal used specifically in training matches, another name for it is the seal of confrontation. Furthermore, when Sasuke mentioned Deidara's seal usage, the reference in the scan was made to the snake-seal, which is the common usage for doton-based techniques.



Turrin said:


> In the manga Hanzo just said Deidara can use Bakuton, he didn't say the technique for molding chakra into clay was Bakuton. And nether does the DB. So if that's all you got, than it's nothing relevant to the discussion here.


According to Seelantu's translations, explosive clay is credited as a Kekkai Genkai, Hiden, jutsu which is comprised of explosion release. The fact that Hanzo accredited Deidara with Bakuton is further proof that Deidara is in fact a kekkai genkai user. I don't understand where the disconnect is, but unless you can provide solid proof, I'll take your concession here.



Turrin said:


> Problematic part of this is that a large amount of Raiton isn't needed to render Deidara's bombs useless, any amount even a minuscule amount will.


Not at all, if that were the case then Sasuke would have just thrown his sword at the C4 Deidara doll, instead of running away.



Turrin said:


> So again your back to claiming that a current of any strength can alter the magnetic field of any object. I.E. the current produced by a tazer can alter the magnetic field of a slab of Iron larger than 10 suns according to you.


I never said "any strength" you are the one who stated that in your initial exercise for me to explain it. I explained the mechanics behind it, never remotely substantiating that a drop of x would cancel out a glass of y, in fact doing the opposite, as I have highlighted in red and bold as the initial response to your question.


			
				Ryuzaki said:
			
		

> An electrical current induces a new magnetic field when run through a metal object would swirl around the metal object in concentric manner, getting weaker as it spreads outward. The magnetic field created by the Kazekage's chakra would lose control over the newly induced magnetic field and of any metal objects it's connected to.
> 
> Electrical currents with a magnitude and direction is considered a vector, given their respective magnetic field when the two opposing forces collide, *it would depend on the strength of the magnetic field, the medium in which the magnetic field (e.g. air vs. water) is created in and the acceleration*.
> 
> In this situation, the raiton has the advantage due to the conductive properties of iron, it would act much faster and abolish the control created by the third. The Sandaime would have to recreate the magnetic field or find a method to remove the charge from the sand.


Afterwards, you attempted to know what an electromagnet was and then dismissed the notion of the coil after I explained it wasn't necessary.​But back to the point about Satetsu, the difference here is the size of Satetsu is not the same as the large polygons Sasori was using against Sakura. For that it would require a larger amount of chakra and larger current. Satetsu is much smaller and there for would have a much smaller magnetic field and thus it would be easier for even fodder level jutsu to dispel it.  



Turrin said:


> He planned that Gaara would use his gourd sand to block his attack after C3. He did not plan that Gaara would crush his arm with gourd sand, rather he outright admits that was simply bad luck for Gaara.


The plan Deidara made was to get Gaara to use the same sand that he infused his little clay monsters into.



Turrin said:


> So again we go back to why the hell would he be so moronic to allow Deidara to blow up the bomb first? The moment Deidara starts spitting out a large bomb, Kakuzu will be using Gian on it to diffuse it, well before it explodes
> 
> Sasuke had a totally different objective, he intentionally sought to use C4 against Deidara, to trick Deidara into thinking he won and ambush him. That's why he left C4 alone. Also Sasuke didn't need to diffuse it because he could just avoid it.


Not at all, Sasuke did not plan that far ahead, since he assumed for a moment that C4 was a dud. In fact, at first he assumed that the C4 doll was an actual bomb and then thought it was a dud, after which point he actually realized what C4 was. So that thought process that he went through all occurred after he recognized Deidara's seal.

As I said, he still opted to run as opposed to trying to diffuse it which would have been a simpler solution, if what you said about "*any amount* of raiton should enough" is any which way true, it clearly is not supported here.



Turrin said:


> Being more powerful against puppet users, does not mean it is only effective against puppet users. So the point your making is moot.


Databook clearly stated it was particular for puppet users but at the same time Deidara is also in the air and if his bird gets shot down he can just make a new one.



Turrin said:


> Most Elemental Jutsu will be casually defended by Iron-Sand, so no I disagree.


Doton: Yomi Numa ― would sink Sasori and his puppet
Doton: Mountain Smash ― would crush Sasori along with his puppet
Doton Kekkai: Doro Domu - would entrap Sasori along with his puppet
Doton: Domu - would render the entirety of Sasori's jutsu null and void
Doton: Dochu Senko - bypasses iron sand completely
Doton: Doryukatsu - another earth-based technique that the iron sand cannot defend against
Doton: Doryu Joheki - another earth-based technique that the iron sand cannot defend against
Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken - annihilates Sasori
Fuuton: Shinkuu - w/Baku summon would break through

All water techniques, when aimed at Sasori would wash away the poison from the sand and slow its speed.

As we've discussed, the raiton users have the potential to abolish the kazekage's magnetic field.

Amatearsu/Goeman can probably heat iron past the point it can hold a magnetic charge.

So yes, Sasori does have an answer for weaker elemental techniques, but doton users would work against his fighting style, since they tend to be long range, widely spread and can be used for solid defense and offense.


Turrin said:


> Again the Raiton mask can use multiple Raiton Spears at once, so that's not happening.


Raiton mask won't always be active, however, Deidara can pump out as many bombs as he wants.



Turrin said:


> That's still 4v1, and he has to be warry of Kakuzu just in case as well as use bombs to bring him down, so his attention is still split 5 ways, and Deidara is not nearly as skillful as Kakashi.


The difference is Deidara has a speed advantage and guided bombs, so I guess it comes down to who can outlast who. 



Turrin said:


> I also believe Kakuzu could potentially kill Deidara before C4 comes out and that if it does Gian diffuses C4 before it explodes. So whether Kakuzu can breath or not isn't really relevant in a 1v1 match, perhaps in a Team match where others can distract Kakuzu until C4 explodes, it would be important, but 1v1, Kakuzu simply diffuses it.


Given conditions, it is possible but once C4 makes it's way, I don't see Kakuzu lasting long. 



Turrin said:


> Your disagreeing with the clear intent of the author in the case of Sasori and you must know that deep down. I don't accept fanfiction as a valid argument. You and I both know that if that was Kishimoto's intent he would have had it stated, Kishi is not a subtle man.


Honestly, I would be okay with his statement if Deidara's feats didn't contradict it and for the record, technically he fought tougher opponents (e.g. Hebi Sasuke and Gaara) both of which were way higher than Kankuro, Sakura and Chiyo's level. If either Gaara or Hebi Sasuke were to fight him, Sasori would be outclassed.



Turrin said:


> In the case of Orochimaru, every incarnation of him is stronger sans ones where he has body failure or soul ripped arms as handicaps. If Deidara even survives to C4, it's countered by Orochimaru's Raiton, and no I'm not willing to believe that a Ninjutsu freak like Orochimaru, w/ 50+ years of exp, and having worked with Akatsuki before, wouldn't know nendo's weakness to Raiton by the time Deidara pulled out C4. So we might as well agree to disagree right now if that's your argument.


Yeah, fair enough, I was referring to the Orochimaru in Part 2 (w/o access to his jutsu) at the same time, Kabuto had compiled a book about the Akatsuki while they were members there, so he would definitely know of several of the Akatsuki members.



Turrin said:


> Satetsu reaches Deidara and Sasori's puppets can also fly. Flight is zero issue for Sasori.


The only thing is the jutsu is shown as mid-range and implies there is a limit to the length of his jutsu, if that is the case, Deidara only need stay out of the range. He could potentially outmaneuver him as well.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 4, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> As I stated before, he said "All" as a confirmation after confirming his hunch, otherwise the match would have gone differently.


You don't seem to get it, saying "all" would still mean the Katsu-Seal is a Doton-Seal or part of a set of Doton-Seals, otherwise it wouldn't be "all", but rather some of Deidara's seals that were Doton.



> Not at all, you have to prove without a reasonable doubt that Kakuzu cannot breathe whatsoever, the burden of proof falls on to you. Your claim is really weak, because you see threads coming out of his mouth, you assume he lacks a throat.
> 
> While there is clear cut proof that he has a stable oxygen supply to breathe (e.g. bright red blood). For a guy who likes to think outside the box, you are going to far with this, especially when there is little to base it on.


The Hidan example shows that Kakuzu having blood is not clear cut proof.



> I'm sure the author would not mind a little math, you make it sound like I'm fabricating a new jutsu, whereas I'm just taking into account something the author explained in full detail and playing out a scenario.


But you are fabricating a new Jutsu, because C4 does not work that way. Fuck Sasuke would have been hit by the C4 cloud after the first Garuda explosion if it did. by it going into his eyes. 



> I don't understand what you are trying to prove here, you seem to think that Deidara who is an expert at the earth element would be in some sort of bind to use an earth-based jutsu. If he sees a water technique coming at him, he's obviously going to resort to an earth jutsu. Plus, he's more than well experienced in the earth element in order to guard against any of Mei's Suitons.


Please stop dodging around the subject. I've asked you multiple times now to account for the fact that Nendo is weaker to Raiton, than what is normally the case for other elemental weaknesses. I.E. Fire is normally weak to Water, but it's not as weak as Nendo is to Raiton.

Until you acknowledge this I can't discusses Deidara's possible Doton's interaction with Mei's suiton.



> Excuse me? The battle against Pain, all Katsuyu was doing was healing villagers and other fodder shinobi. Tsunade didn't bring out to the battlefield in order to fight Pain or in the battle against Madara. So, she's not going to do that against Deidara.


No excuse me. She brought Katsuya out against Pain to defend an attack that would otherwise kill her and others. I'm saying here she will bring out Katsuya to defend an attack as well. So it's literally the same thing. And it's not like she hasn't used Katsuya in battle, see the Sannin duel. 

In the end your asking me to believe Tsunade allows herself to be defeated by attacks that she could otherwise defend if she summoned Katsuya, but just doesn't cause yah know stuff. Sorry I will never agree with that.



> The point you are ignoring is that she is going to get hurt, she's going to get damaged and then she'll recover from it. The damage is going to happen to Tsunade regardless, as it won't make a crater like CST but C2 is more potent to the individual in this case, since she is the target.


I'm sorry, but I find the notion that C2 is more potent to the individual than CST completely absurd, so again you might as well stop with this, because I'll absolutely never agree with you. And even if I did, I would still believe Tsunade can easily defend herself, because here she wouldn't need to focus on defending hundreds of others at the same time and would instead only be focusing all of her chakra and all of Katsuya's entire body on defending herself. So I still doubt Tsunade would have an issue.



> The examples you used to substantiate this belief is entirely based on shinobi who were fighting a defensive battle or shinobi fighting more than one person or shinobi who have a pre-existing medical condition.


Hidan did not have any help reacting to Asuma's attacks. Shikkamaru didn't have any help reacting to Hidan's attacks. Gaara did not have any help reacting to CS2-Kimi's attacks. And so on. So no my examples don't include help.

As far as defense goes, Hidan was not on defense against Asuma. Gaara caught Kimi with his own attacks, IE. times when he wasn't on defense. And so on. Though the defense thing should not matter here anyway, since we are literally talking about how shinobi would *defend* Deidara's bombs, so that is a moot point from the onset.



> So Sasuke wasn't fooled by the clay clone on two different occasions while Deidara was on the mount?


This still has nothing to do with my point. Again I will repeat after the C2 dragon was destroyed there was an opening to land a successive attack on Deidara before he could create another mount to escape on. I see no reason why Kakuzu or Mei couldn't win in that moment after dealing with the C2 Dragon. 



> The same thing would happen to Mei. That's definitely a couple of points for Deidara in the department of shrewdness.


Clay clones are nigh pointless against Mei or Kakuzu, because both of their elemental attacks have a wide enough AOE that they would hit both the clone riding atop the mount and Deidara hiding inside the mount. So even if they are fooled their attack will still connect with Deidara. 



> He does which Hiruzen would be able to stop, I agree, however, I don't really see Hiruzen figuring it out before Deidara is airborne.


And I think assuming the man who immediately was able to accurately assess Juubito's Gudodama after only seeing it for a few seconds, would be unable to figure out Nendo, is an extremely generous assumption on your part for Deidara. I



> You don't need to be swift in order to be proficient, which is what the category accounts for


-copy- Are you saying the more proficiently you can execute something doesn't effect your speed? -paste-

I will continue to past this until you actually address the question.



> Kimi was also sick and beyond exhausted at that point, so he wasn't performing at his peak, so this is baseless.


Data-books says it didn't effect his speed much if at all:

Picture 3: His body is expected to be on the verge of death, but he moves arounf
lightly. The thoughts of putting his life on the line for the mission gives him
power...!

But fuck let's go with SPII-Gaara than who in-fact followed Deidara's own movements just fine, and he still only had a 3 in speed.  Or how about Hiruzen following Orochimaru's movements who has a 4.5 in speed just fine and he has a 3 in speed. Or how about Hidan following Asuma's 4.5 in speed movements just fine, with his meager 3.5 in speed.

Anyway you slice any Kage will not have an issue following Deidara's 4.5 in speed.



> According to Seelantu's translations, explosive clay is credited as a Kekkai Genkai, Hiden, jutsu which is comprised of explosion release. The fact that Hanzo accredited Deidara with Bakuton is further proof that Deidara is in fact a kekkai genkai user. I don't understand where the disconnect is, but unless you can provide solid proof, I'll take your concession here.


Seelantu's translation of what? I've asked multiple times now to link me to what you referring to. 



> Not at all, if that were the case then Sasuke would have just thrown his sword at the C4 Deidara doll, instead of running away.


Yes, yes it is. That's why Omoi w/ his fodder Raiton flow can counter the most powerful Nendo bomb,  CO. That's why Sasuke with an amount of Raiton invisible to naked eye can diffuse a C2 landmine. That's why Sasuke literally says hitting the bombs with any raiton attack will diffuse them. 



> But back to the point about Satetsu, the difference here is the size of Satetsu is not the same as the large polygons Sasori was using against Sakura. For that it would require a larger amount of chakra and larger current. Satetsu is much smaller and there for would have a much smaller magnetic field and thus it would be easier for even fodder level jutsu to dispel it.


It seems like your saying here that the size of Satetsu is not the size of Satetsu, which makes no sense to me. To deal with Satetsu the person in question would need to be able to channel a current strong enough to change the magnetic field of this amount of Satetsu:



I outside of Kirin I don't even recall any Raiton techniques that produce a large enough current to encompass such a massive quantity of Satetsu.



> The plan Deidara made was to get Gaara to use the same sand that he infused his little clay monsters into.


Cool and that was after his arm got caught, not something he planned before. He made the best of a bad situation.



> Not at all, Sasuke did not plan that far ahead, since he assumed for a moment that C4 was a dud. In fact, at first he assumed that the C4 doll was an actual bomb and then thought it was a dud, after which point he actually realized what C4 was. So that thought process that he went through all occurred after he recognized Deidara's seal.
> 
> As I said, he still opted to run as opposed to trying to diffuse it which would have been a simpler solution, if what you said about "any amount of raiton should enough" is any which way true, it clearly is not supported here.


This is a fair point, but Sasuke being incapable of diffusing C4 directly contradicts him saying that any amount of Raiton can diffuse any of Deidara's bombs. Like wise it goes against Omoi's feat of diffusing an even greater bomb CO w/ fodder Raiton flow. So maybe my explanation was wrong, but I still can't agree with the idea that he couldn't diffuse C4, because it goes against Cannon and makes Sasuke look like a Moron for saying what he did. So Instead I have to look for an alternative explanation and the only things I can think off is that Sasuke was not confident enough in his hypothesis yet to assert that his Raiton could diffuse C4, so he like anyone ran just to be safe. While later after getting to test his hypothesis more and diffusing many different bombs, he was confident enough to factually state any Raiton can diffuse any of Deidara's bombs and likely would have just diffused C4, if he fought Deidara again. Or perhaps Fear overtook his reasoning in that instance and he ran. That or him not diffusing it is simply plot so that Kishi actually got a chance to show Deidara's Jutsu.

Ether way I can not go against the stated and shown mechanics of Nendo, simply because Sasuke acted stupidly.



> Databook clearly stated it was particular for puppet users but at the same time Deidara is also in the air and if his bird gets shot down he can just make a new one.


No the Data-book states it's even more effective against puppet users, not that it's solely effective against puppet users.



> Doton: Yomi Numa ― would sink Sasori and his puppet


Doton: Yomi Numa - Satetsu lifts him out of the swamp
Doton: Mountain Smash - How the fuck is this representative of most elemental techniques
Doton Kekkai: Doro Domu  - LOL, you must be joking
Doton: Domu - Domu's Feats that it can block Satetsu
Doton: Dochu Senko - Satetsu casually pierces through the ground killing the user
Doton: Doryukatsu - Not an offensive technique
Doton: Doryu Joheki  - Not an offensive technique
Fuuton: Rasen Shuriken -  How the fuck is this representative of most elemental techniques
Fuuton: Shinkuu - Flame throwers take down Baku



> All water techniques, when aimed at Sasori would wash away the poison from the sand and slow its speed.


Most Suitons aren't even fast enough to hit the Satetsu and water has never notably slowed down anything, so that is really reaching.



> As we've discussed, the raiton users have the potential to abolish the kazekage's magnetic field.Amatearsu/Goeman can probably heat iron past the point it can hold a magnetic charge.


Psudo-science applied to magic abilities is not a credible point in my book from the onset, i'm really only entertaining the notion in our discussion of Raiton above, because I find it interesting, but really i'm not believing any of this until it's actually shown that Kishi believes the in verse magic adheres to this specific scientific principals, but unless i'm missing something he has not. 

From an inverse perspective I do not think Amaterasu or Goemon are burning through Iron-Sand considering that Gaara's sand blocked multiple Enton moves w/o issue, despite the fact that heat of that level should have scientifically turned the sand to brittle glass or outright burned through it. But because it's sand reinforced by magic [chakra] it didn't work that way. The same will be the case here.



> Raiton mask won't always be active, however, Deidara can pump out as many bombs as he wants.


It takes more time for Deidara to grab clay out of his pouch, shape it into bombs, throw the bombs, have the bombs cross the large distance between Deidara and his enemy, than it takes for Kakuzu to use Gian. Like a-lot fucking longer.



> The difference is Deidara has a speed advantage and guided bombs, so I guess it comes down to who can outlast who.


The speed advantage is moot, as MUCH GREATER speed gulf's have been irrelevant time and time again. Bombs get raped by Raiton.



> Given conditions, it is possible but once C4 makes it's way, I don't see Kakuzu lasting long.


And once again Deidara needs to survive till C4, Kakuzu has to moronically not diffuse C4, and Kakuzu has to need to breath for Deidara to win. While Kakuzu wins in every other possible outcome. So Kakuzu objectively has better odds here. 



> Honestly, I would be okay with his statement if Deidara's feats didn't contradict it and for the record, technically he fought tougher opponents (e.g. Hebi Sasuke and Gaara) both of which were way higher than Kankuro, Sakura and Chiyo's level. If either Gaara or Hebi Sasuke were to fight him, Sasori would be outclassed.


You say Deidara's feats are better and I say Sasori's feats are better, whose right, well one of our interpretations goes with manga cannon and the others doesn't. I wonder 

As far as opponents go. Sasori defeated Sandaime-Kazekage back when he was weaker. That is objectively clearly suppose to be seen as feat several magntitudes greater than Deidara beating Gaara, because Kishi went out of his way to hype Sandaime-Kazekage as being much stronger than Gaara having the elders and chiyo not only call him the strongest Kazekage, but one the towers above the rest in strength. I also don't see how taking on Hebi-Sasuke w/ help and losing excels that stark contrast ether. Simply put Sasori defeating the Kazekage that towered above the others in strength when he was weaker is much better than anything Deidara has accomplished.

And while Sasori has lower showings against Chiyo/Sakura/Kankuro, Deidara has a really fucking lower showing himself against Ambush-Squad.



> Yeah, fair enough, I was referring to the Orochimaru in Part 2 (w/o access to his jutsu) at the same time, Kabuto had compiled a book about the Akatsuki while they were members there, so he would definitely know of several of the Akatsuki members.


W/o access to his Jutsu I could see him loosing, albeit after giving Deidara a good amount of difficult.



> The only thing is the jutsu is shown as mid-range and implies there is a limit to the length of his jutsu, if that is the case, Deidara only need stay out of the range. He could potentially outmaneuver him as well.


All the Iron Sand Jutsu and Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen are Long-Range, I can posts scans of DBIII if you want.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 6, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You don't seem to get it, saying "all" would still mean the Katsu-Seal is a Doton-Seal or part of a set of Doton-Seals, otherwise it wouldn't be "all", but rather some of Deidara's seals that were Doton.


As I stated, "All" was a mere confirmation after he saw this seal and confirmed his hunch. 

Katsu seal is not a doton based jutsu, nor does it indicate that it refers solely to Doton-related techniques. It is actually a seal for ninja combat (hand to hand), in sparring matches.



Turrin said:


> The Hidan example shows that Kakuzu having blood is not clear cut proof.


You still have to establish the fact that Kakuzu doesn't breathe, using half-assed examples such as Hidan isn't enough to save face. Hidan for all intensive purposes is still human, he still breathes (even though he doesn't need to anymore). Kakuzu stated that there is no such thing as immortality in his case.



Turrin said:


> But you are fabricating a new Jutsu, because C4 does not work that way. Fuck Sasuke would have been hit by the C4 cloud after the first Garuda explosion if it did. by it going into his eyes.


Sasuke recognized what it was slightly afterwards and he chidori'd himself after putting everything together. Also, at that point in time, Deidara did had not set off the miniature C4 bombs.



Turrin said:


> Please stop dodging around the subject. I've asked you multiple times now to account for the fact that Nendo is weaker to Raiton, than what is normally the case for other elemental weaknesses. I.E. Fire is normally weak to Water, but it's not as weak as Nendo is to Raiton.
> 
> Until you acknowledge this I can't discusses Deidara's possible Doton's interaction with Mei's suiton.


I don't feel that it is an accurate statement, which is why I won't agree with it. You seem to have this notion that "any amount of raiton" would work and you solely base it on one landmine C2 and a few C1 creatures in his first scuffle. When in fact everything that Deidara used afterwards (with greater chakra) was either too fast to be reacted to with a mere raiton or the chakra requirements of diffusion were too high. 



Turrin said:


> No excuse me. She brought Katsuya out against Pain to defend an attack that would otherwise kill her and others. I'm saying here she will bring out Katsuya to defend an attack as well. So it's literally the same thing. And it's not like she hasn't used Katsuya in battle, see the Sannin duel.
> 
> In the end your asking me to believe Tsunade allows herself to be defeated by attacks that she could otherwise defend if she summoned Katsuya, but just doesn't cause yah know stuff. Sorry I will never agree with that.


The point is in a 1 vs. 1 fight, in all of her panel time since Part 2, against Pain and Madara, she only used Katsuyu to heal others not as a defensive shield for herself or as an offensive tool. Given the speed of the C2 birds and her lack of speed coupled with her lack of durability, she gets taken down by repeated damage.



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but I find the notion that C2 is more potent to the individual than CST completely absurd, so again you might as well stop with this, because I'll absolutely never agree with you. And even if I did, I would still believe Tsunade can easily defend herself, because here she wouldn't need to focus on defending hundreds of others at the same time and would instead only be focusing all of her chakra and all of Katsuya's entire body on defending herself. So I still doubt Tsunade would have an issue


Given her fighting style, she doesn't dodge and takes the enemy's jutsu head on, what do you think will happen? Keep in mind that this happened to Sasuke's CS2 wing.



Turrin said:


> Hidan did not have any help reacting to Asuma's attacks. Shikkamaru didn't have any help reacting to Hidan's attacks. Gaara did not have any help reacting to CS2-Kimi's attacks. And so on. So no my examples don't include help.
> 
> As far as defense goes, Hidan was not on defense against Asuma. Gaara caught Kimi with his own attacks, IE. times when he wasn't on defense. And so on. Though the defense thing should not matter here anyway, since we are literally talking about how shinobi would defend Deidara's bombs, so that is a moot point from the onse


So you're just going to pretend that Kimi being sick had nothing to do with his performance, that's awesome. 



Turrin said:


> This still has nothing to do with my point. Again I will repeat after the C2 dragon was destroyed there was an opening to land a successive attack on Deidara before he could create another mount to escape on. I see no reason why Kakuzu or Mei couldn't win in that moment after dealing with the C2 Dragon.


The mount gets destroyed, the clone doesn't though and they would have no reason but to assume that they didn't kill Deidara with the mount, just like Sasuke. Even Sasuke was convinced that Deidara was dead and powered down. But that wasn't the case, Deidara can exploit this same opening. 



Turrin said:


> Clay clones are nigh pointless against Mei or Kakuzu, because both of their elemental attacks have a wide enough AOE that they would hit both the clone riding atop the mount and Deidara hiding inside the mount. So even if they are fooled their attack will still connect with Deidara.


Sasuke had to hit the clone directly after he chopped the bird. Neither of them have a jutsu powerful enough to hit both at the same time. Kakuzu's best offensive jutsu is Gian but even that can't be fired in rapid succession nor does it have the ability to fly.



Turrin said:


> And I think assuming the man who immediately was able to accurately assess Juubito's Gudodama after only seeing it for a few seconds, would be unable to figure out Nendo, is an extremely generous assumption on your part for Deidara.


Again that's cause he had a point of reference, Oonoki's Jinton, it's unknown whether he has a point of reference for Deidara. Again, if he does, then sure but if not, then he's not going to figure it out mid-battle at the distance Deidara puts him at.



Turrin said:


> Data-books says it didn't effect his speed much if at all:
> 
> Picture 3: His body is expected to be on the verge of death, but he moves arounf
> lightly. The thoughts of putting his life on the line for the mission gives him
> ...


Based on his performance, I tend to disagree, he was sick and worked himself towards death. Part 1 Gaara was also amplified by having the Shukaku.

Orochimaru was dicking around the entire time and at the time Gaara had the Shukaku and the speed of his sand isn't a reflection of his actual speed. Gaara, himself physically isn't going to out speed Deidara, the guided bombs will likely hit him (or in this case his defense). I don't see how this match doesn't go the way of canon, since Deidara was took him down, even if it's at the cost of an arm. Hidan only took advantage of Asuma only after Asuma got burned by his own technique, before that Asuma parried each of Hidan's attacks. 

Hiruzen, Tsunade and Mei would, they are both grounded and would not be able to follow if Deidara starts launching explosion and they have to dodge them. Deidara would have the aerial and speed advantage, both of which hinder their abilities to make an appropriate counter-attack. 



Turrin said:


> Yes, yes it is. That's why Omoi w/ his fodder Raiton flow can counter the most powerful Nendo bomb, CO. That's why Sasuke with an amount of Raiton invisible to naked eye can diffuse a C2 landmine. That's why Sasuke literally says hitting the bombs with any raiton attack will diffuse them


Deidara couldn't mold his chakra in order to diffuse the bomb. It's not the first time we've seen someone's chakra being inserted into another person to throw off a jutsu. C0 did not go off because Deidara couldn't form his own chakra, it just wasn't his bombs. 

The difference is when you start to assume that C3/C4 can be diffused by fodder level chakra and Sasuke in any of the manga pages never stated that "any amount of raiton" would be enough to stop the bombs. If that were the case he would not have wasted his chakra on Chidori. 



Turrin said:


> It seems like your saying here that the size of Satetsu is not the size of Satetsu, which makes no sense to me. To deal with Satetsu the person in question would need to be able to channel a current strong enough to change the magnetic field of this amount of Satetsu:
> 
> I outside of Kirin I don't even recall any Raiton techniques that produce a large enough current to encompass such a massive quantity of Satetsu.



But the amount of current need only be small due to the small surface area of each of the Satetsu. It would easier to diffuse with less chakra, as opposed to diffusing polygons, where everything is more densely packed. However, needless to say, lightning jutsu directly undermines the magnet release, which was the point I was attempting to convey.

A massive over the top large scale raiton is not required, just enough to clear a path, the rest would transfer via the conductive properties of the iron. A mid-ranged raiton flow would also do the trick, assuming the user could spread it quickly enough.

As for which jutsu would be able to do it, I do not really know, the best I can think of is Darui's Black Panther, Kakashi's Raikiri Dog, Sasuke's Chidori Nagashi and Kakuzu's Gian. Out of the box jutsu would be something like a Raiton Kage Bunshin, it would spread throughout especially if it's used against Satetsu Kaihou and Satetsu Keshuu.



Turrin said:


> Cool and that was after his arm got caught, not something he planned before. He made the best of a bad situation.


Fair enough, but what's to stop that from happening again?



Turrin said:


> Ether way I can not go against the stated and shown mechanics of Nendo, simply because Sasuke acted stupidly


I don't really see how the others wouldn't react in the same way is my point and he has a sharingan (which the others do not possess). 



Turrin said:


> Doton: Yomi Numa - Satetsu lifts him out of the swamp
> Doton: Mountain Smash - How the fuck is this representative of most elemental techniques
> Doton Kekkai: Doro Domu - LOL, you must be joking
> Doton: Domu - Domu's Feats that it can block Satetsu
> ...


Yomi Numa, Mountain Smash, Doro Domu are all techniques that cannot be defended by Iron Sand, the user has to react to it after the technique has been set. It isn't something that Sasori can just put up a wall to defend against. Doryukatsu and Doryu Joheki both change the ground and because of that can push Sasori off balance and change the range of his attack, much in the same manner as when Oonoki used Doton: Chidoukaku.

Well there aren't many Fuuton techniques, from what I remember just a handful. Since it is jutsu vs. jutsu, it isn't something Iron Sand can defend against, while I agree the counter-attack would work but you specifically stated that Iron Sand can nullify most elemental ninjutsu which is obviously not the case.



Turrin said:


> Most Suitons aren't even fast enough to hit the Satetsu and water has never notably slowed down anything, so that is really reaching.


Sakura was able to punch away the polygons, Suitons will be hitting. But to be fair, the aim wasn't the sand, it was the puppet user to force him to defend with the sand which would then wash away the poisons. Either way, water techniques rip out a large part of Sasori's arsenal, assuming it doesn't is asinine.



Turrin said:


> From an inverse perspective I do not think Amaterasu or Goemon are burning through Iron-Sand considering that Gaara's sand blocked multiple Enton moves w/o issue, despite the fact that heat of that level should have scientifically turned the sand to brittle glass or outright burned through it. But because it's sand reinforced by magic [chakra] it didn't work that way. The same will be the case here.


They don't need to burn through Iron Sand, they just need to heat beyond the point it can hold a magnetic charge. Gaara's sand is just earth, it's different than the Iron Sand.



Turrin said:


> It takes more time for Deidara to grab clay out of his pouch, shape it into bombs, throw the bombs, have the bombs cross the large distance between Deidara and his enemy, than it takes for Kakuzu to use Gian. Like a-lot fucking longer.


Rapid Gian successions isn't going to happen either.



Turrin said:


> The speed advantage is moot


No it isn't, you just want it to be so you can suit your fan fiction, here. 



Turrin said:


> As far as opponents go. Sasori defeated Sandaime-Kazekage back when he was weaker.
> 
> That is objectively clearly suppose to be seen as feat several magntitudes greater than Deidara beating Gaara, because Kishi went out of his way to hype Sandaime-Kazekage as being much stronger than Gaara having the elders and chiyo not only call him the strongest Kazekage, but one the towers above the rest in strength. I also don't see how taking on Hebi-Sasuke w/ help and losing excels that stark contrast ether. Simply put Sasori defeating the Kazekage that towered above the others in strength when he was weaker is much better than anything Deidara has accomplished.
> 
> And while Sasori has lower showings against Chiyo/Sakura/Kankuro, Deidara has a really fucking lower showing himself against Ambush-Squad.


Sasori poisoned and killed him, not much hype, especially since at the time, the Kazekage probably thought of Sasori as an ally.

Deidara more than made up for it in his skirmish against the Tsuchikage and etc. Sasori by far had the worst showing, he had absolutely nothing to work with and his performance was far worse as an Edo when put against Deidara.



Turrin said:


> All the Iron Sand Jutsu and Akahigi: Hyakki no Sōen are Long-Range, I can posts scans of DBIII if you want.


However, Sasori is a mid-range puppet master, Deidara can fly out of his range which is a lot larger than that Akatsuki cave.


----------



## Turrin (Jul 6, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> As I stated, "All" was a mere confirmation after he saw this seal and confirmed his hunch.


You still don't get it, even if he was confirming the fact that he said "all" means that event he Katsu seals were Doton or part of a Doton set of seals. Your basically arguing the word "all" doesn't mean "all". 



> You still have to establish the fact that Kakuzu doesn't breathe, using half-assed examples such as Hidan isn't enough to save face. Hidan for all intensive purposes is still human, he still breathes (even though he doesn't need to anymore). Kakuzu stated that there is no such thing as immortality in his case.


This isn't my reasoning for why Kakuzu doesn't breath, this is my reasoning for why your counter point about blood doesn't work because we have characters who bleed red, but don't need to breath.



> Sasuke recognized what it was slightly afterwards and he chidori'd himself after putting everything together. Also, at that point in time, Deidara did had not set off the miniature C4 bombs.


He chidori'd himself when he got hit by the second C4, he did not Chidori himself when he was inside the first C4. 



> I don't feel that it is an accurate statement, which is why I won't agree with it. You seem to have this notion that "any amount of raiton" would work and you solely base it on one landmine C2 and a few C1 creatures in his first scuffle. When in fact everything that Deidara used afterwards (with greater chakra) was either too fast to be reacted to with a mere raiton or the chakra requirements of diffusion were too high.


No I have the inclination, because it was outright stated in the manga:

Sasuke, *Any* of your bombs that receive a blow from ration will no longer explode

It was also shown when Omoi's basic Raiton Flow countered Deidara's strongest bomb CO.



> The point is in a 1 vs. 1 fight, in all of her panel time since Part 2, against Pain and Madara, she only used Katsuyu to heal others not as a defensive shield for herself or as an offensive tool. Given the speed of the C2 birds and her lack of speed coupled with her lack of durability, she gets taken down by repeated damage.


She used it as a defensive shield against CST, so that is incorrect.



> Given her fighting style, she doesn't dodge and takes the enemy's jutsu head on, what do you think will happen? Keep in mind that this happened to Sasuke's CS2 wing.


I already told you what I think will happen, she'll block with Katsuya easily, considering she defended CST, which is in a whole other universe compared to an attack that can be mostly blocked by a CS2 wing.



> So you're just going to pretend that Kimi being sick had nothing to do with his performance, that's awesome.


The Data-book said it did not effect his speed and he also out maneuvered Lee in speed [until Lee got drunk] and Lee has a 4 in speed, so that also supports his speed being fine. But I gave you other examples as well.



> The mount gets destroyed, the clone doesn't though and they would have no reason but to assume that they didn't kill Deidara with the mount, just like Sasuke. Even Sasuke was convinced that Deidara was dead and powered down. But that wasn't the case, Deidara can exploit this same opening.


I don't know what your talking about. Sasuke hit Deidara with a follow up Shuriken attack after destroying the clay mount.



> Sasuke had to hit the clone directly after he chopped the bird. Neither of them have a jutsu powerful enough to hit both at the same time. Kakuzu's best offensive jutsu is Gian but even that can't be fired in rapid succession nor does it have the ability to fly.


Gian literally can fire multiple shots.



> Again that's cause he had a point of reference, Oonoki's Jinton, it's unknown whether he has a point of reference for Deidara. Again, if he does, then sure but if not, then he's not going to figure it out mid-battle at the distance Deidara puts him at.


You mean close-range, like nearly every other battle Deidara's ever been in where he starts up close and personal?



> Based on his performance, I tend to disagree, he was sick and worked himself towards death. Part 1 Gaara was also amplified by having the Shukaku.


Gaara was not amplified by Shukaku



> Orochimaru was dicking around the entire time


Orochimaru was not dicking around after seeing his Tensei sealed by Shiki Fuujin, the guy was completely serious to not let that shit happen to him.



> and at the time Gaara had the Shukaku and the speed of his sand isn't a reflection of his actual speed. Gaara, himself physically isn't going to out speed Deidara, the guided bombs will likely hit him (or in this case his defense). I don't see how this match doesn't go the way of canon, since Deidara was took him down, even if it's at the cost of an arm.


Cool, and i'm talking about Gaara's ability to react, not the sand's speed. I.E. if Gaara couldn't react than the Sand's speed wouldn't matter, because Gaara wouldn't see the attacks coming to defend them.



> Hidan only took advantage of Asuma only after Asuma got burned by his own technique, before that Asuma parried each of Hidan's attacks.


Hidan kept up with Asuma well before Asuma was injured. So no.



> Hiruzen, Tsunade and Mei would, they are both grounded and would not be able to follow if Deidara starts launching explosion and they have to dodge them. Deidara would have the aerial and speed advantage, both of which hinder their abilities to make an appropriate counter-attack.


Speed advantage is not great enough to be relevant. To add even more examples to the pot. We can look at Sasuke w/ his 3 in speed keeping up with Haku w/ his 4 in speed. Shikkamaru keeping up with Hidan to the point of being able to wait till the last second to put a blood container in-front of his blade. And i could keep going the manga is riddled with these examples.



> Deidara couldn't mold his chakra in order to diffuse the bomb. It's not the first time we've seen someone's chakra being inserted into another person to throw off a jutsu. C0 did not go off because Deidara couldn't form his own chakra, it just wasn't his bombs.


Dude they talk about Nendo being weak to Raiton and than Omoi uses Raiton flow to counter CO. Now your saying that it wasn't because it was Raiton. Sorry, but i'm not buying it.



> The difference is when you start to assume that C3/C4 can be diffused by fodder level chakra and Sasuke in any of the manga pages never stated that "any amount of raiton" would be enough to stop the bombs. If that were the case he would not have wasted his chakra on Chidori.


He does say that, I posted you my trans from the Raw many times now. And if regular Raiton flow can diffuse CO which is >>> C3/C4, than it's obvious that regular Raiton flow can diffuse those as well. Also you do realize that Sasuke can use verying amounts of Chidori chakra, so just because he says Chidori it doesn't mean he's using as much force as the regular Chidori. 



> But the amount of current need only be small due to the small surface area of each of the Satetsu. It would easier to diffuse with less chakra, as opposed to diffusing polygons, where everything is more densely packed. However, needless to say, lightning jutsu directly undermines the magnet release, which was the point I was attempting to convey.


The surface area is not small, it was massive, so yeah I just don't agree.




> Fair enough, but what's to stop that from happening again?


Gaara can now sense with his Sand, so he would know the C1 models were hidden there and just crush them. 



> I don't really see how the others wouldn't react in the same way is my point and he has a sharingan (which the others do not possess).


1) More Experienced than Sasuke
2) More Intelligent than Sasuke
3) Had More Chances to Test their Raiton against Bombs than Sasuke



> Yomi Numa, Mountain Smash, Doro Domu are all techniques that cannot be defended by Iron Sand, the user has to react to it after the technique has been set. It isn't something that Sasori can just put up a wall to defend against. Doryukatsu and Doryu Joheki both change the ground and because of that can push Sasori off balance and change the range of his attack, much in the same manner as when Oonoki used Doton: Chidoukaku.


I told you how Yomi Numa is defend. I don't believe Domu can block Satetsu. Mountain Sando is overpowered and in no way representative of most Elemental techniques.

The other two are minor annoyances for Sasori and in no way are causing him much trouble.



> Well there aren't many Fuuton techniques, from what I remember just a handful. Since it is jutsu vs. jutsu, it isn't something Iron Sand can defend against, while I agree the counter-attack would work but you specifically stated that Iron Sand can nullify most elemental ninjutsu which is obviously not the case.


Oh in that case Iron sand can Nullify Baku by blasting Satetsu Shigure into it's mouth, not that Baku w/ it's huge form wouldn't immediately get poisoned before even doing much of anything.

FRS, it depends which one, if it's the 50% than Satetsu could just prevent Naruto from landing it until it fizzles. If it's 100% than no Iron Sand isn't an adequate defense [though Sasori can puppet swamp], but FRS is not representative of most elemental techniques, it's one of thee best we've seen in the manga cannon.



> Sakura was able to punch away the polygons, Suitons will be hitting. But to be fair, the aim wasn't the sand, it was the puppet user to force him to defend with the sand which would then wash away the poisons. Either way, water techniques rip out a large part of Sasori's arsenal, assuming it doesn't is asinine.


Only Mei and Kisame could produce the quantity of Suiton necessary to wash away all the poison from the Sand, and that just makes the Sand a bit less lethal, rather than actually bypassing it's defenses to do anything meaningful to Sasori. 



> They don't need to burn through Iron Sand, they just need to heat beyond the point it can hold a magnetic charge. Gaara's sand is just earth, it's different than the Iron Sand.


And I don't think that's happening for the same reason that Gaara's sand didn't turn to glass when met with a flame "hotter than the sun", because it's not normal magnetic force it's magic [chakra] reinforced magnetic force.



> Rapid Gian successions isn't going to happen either.


You can literally fire off multiple Gian attacks at once, it's part of the Jutsu 



> Sasori poisoned and killed him, not much hype, especially since at the time, the Kazekage probably thought of Sasori as an ally.


And you have the gull to talk to me about fanfiction.



> Deidara more than made up for it in his skirmish against the Tsuchikage and etc. Sasori by far had the worst showing, he had absolutely nothing to work with and his performance was far worse as an Edo when put against Deidara.


Sasori actually performed better as Tensei w/ huge disadvantages than Deidara did as a Tensei, even despite the fact that Deidara was only advantage as a Tensei. And Deidara didn't make up shit, his best feat is still winning against Gaara and vastly inferior Kazekage to the one Sasori beat back when he was weaker and than proceeded to integrate said Kazekage's powers into his own.



> However, Sasori is a mid-range puppet master, Deidara can fly out of his range which is a lot larger than that Akatsuki cave.


Again his techniques are long-range, so no he is not a Mid range puppet master, he is more than capable of fighting at long-range.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 7, 2015)

Turrin said:


> You still don't get it, even if he was confirming the fact that he said "all" means that event he Katsu seals were Doton or part of a Doton set of seals. Your basically arguing the word "all" doesn't mean "all".


If you truly believe that, then you are as bad as the idiots that quote a single verse out of context of the entire conversation and make an overarching generalization. Given that not only have I broken your argument and provided not only full and clear proof that Deidara hid his seals, also included the seal Sasuke was referencing in the statement you are benching you're holier than now semantic debate on.



Turrin said:


> This isn't my reasoning for why Kakuzu doesn't breath, this is my reasoning for why your counter point about blood doesn't work because we have characters who bleed red, but don't need to breath.


Just because Hidan doesn't "need" to breathe doesn't mean he naturally doesn't. Nothing about his body indicates it wouldn't work just like the normal person considering he couldn't control his body after his body was chopped off.



Turrin said:


> He chidori'd himself when he got hit by the second C4, he did not Chidori himself when he was inside the first C4.


He never got hit by the first C4, Deidara reapplied the technique the second time around and it was then when Sasuke confirmed it while inside the jutsu.  



Turrin said:


> No I have the inclination, because it was outright stated in the manga:
> 
> Sasuke, *Any* of your bombs that receive a blow from ration will no longer explode
> 
> It was also shown when Omoi's basic Raiton Flow countered Deidara's strongest bomb CO.


I don't know where Sasuke said that, all I know he mentioned earth is weaker than lightning, nothing her indicates that any small amount of raiton would diffuse any of the larger bombs (e.g. C3).  



Turrin said:


> She used it as a defensive shield against CST, so that is incorrect.
> 
> I already told you what I think will happen, she'll block with Katsuya easily, considering she defended CST, which is in a whole other universe compared to an attack that can be mostly blocked by a CS2 wing.


Post a scan where she specifically shielded herself from CST using Katsuyu. Last I checked, she used her seal.

The durability distinction is between CS2 and Tsunade, not Katsuyu.



Turrin said:


> The Data-book said it did not effect his speed and he also out maneuvered Lee in speed [until Lee got drunk] and Lee has a 4 in speed, so that also supports his speed being fine. But I gave you other examples as well.






Turrin said:


> I don't know what your talking about. Sasuke hit Deidara with a follow up Shuriken attack after destroying the clay mount.


And he thought he had him with his attack, Deidara still managed to make another bird.



Turrin said:


> Gian literally can fire multiple shots.


Deidara can launch multiple bombs and Deidara's bombs are shown to be faster than Gian.



Turrin said:


> You mean close-range, like nearly every other battle Deidara's ever been in where he starts up close and personal?


He does because he can afford to, since odds are he's always employing a clay clone.



Turrin said:


> Orochimaru was not dicking around after seeing his Tensei sealed by Shiki Fuujin, the guy was completely serious to not let that shit happen to him.


Throughout the majority of the fight he was fucking around the most but he was already caught by the time the kages were sealed. He couldn't break free.



Turrin said:


> Cool, and i'm talking about Gaara's ability to react, not the sand's speed. I.E. if Gaara couldn't react than the Sand's speed wouldn't matter, because Gaara wouldn't see the attacks coming to defend them.


Sand was set auto-defend when he had the shukaku still.



Turrin said:


> Hidan kept up with Asuma well before Asuma was injured. So no.


Asuma parried everything, Asuma wasn't pressured by Hidan's speed, rather his strength.



Turrin said:


> Speed advantage is not great enough to be relevant. To add even more examples to the pot. We can look at Sasuke w/ his 3 in speed keeping up with Haku w/ his 4 in speed. Shikkamaru keeping up with Hidan to the point of being able to wait till the last second to put a blood container in-front of his blade. And i could keep going the manga is riddled with these examples.


For Mei, Tsunade, Kakuzu and Gaara it's large enough for it to make a difference.



Turrin said:


> Dude they talk about Nendo being weak to Raiton and than Omoi uses Raiton flow to counter CO. Now your saying that it wasn't because it was Raiton. Sorry, but i'm not buying it.


Because Omoi's chakra was in the way, Deidara needed to mold the chakra in order to set off the explosion, he couldn't do that when someone else chakra was flowing through him.



Turrin said:


> He does say that, I posted you my trans from the Raw many times now. And if regular Raiton flow can diffuse CO which is >>> C3/C4, than it's obvious that regular Raiton flow can diffuse those as well. Also you do realize that Sasuke can use verying amounts of Chidori chakra, so just because he says Chidori it doesn't mean he's using as much force as the regular Chidori.


Flat out bullshit because Deidara said C3 has the highest chakra composition, so therefore C0 is not greater than C3. 



Turrin said:


> The surface area is not small, it was massive, so yeah I just don't agree.


As you can see a single bullet from satetsu has a relatively small surface area. When you combine them into bigger polygons like Sasori used before, that I will agree has a larger surface area. 



Turrin said:


> Gaara can now sense with his Sand, so he would know the C1 models were hidden there and just crush them.





Turrin said:


> 1) More Experienced than Sasuke
> 2) More Intelligent than Sasuke
> 3) Had More Chances to Test their Raiton against Bombs than Sasuke


You think experience and intelligence is going to help them? 



Turrin said:


> I told you how Yomi Numa is defend. I don't believe Domu can block Satetsu. Mountain Sando is overpowered and in no way representative of most Elemental techniques.
> 
> The other two are minor annoyances for Sasori and in no way are causing him much trouble.


The point I was making is that Sasori has no defense for the techniques, ergo no way to prevent it from happening. After the technique has hit, sure Iron Sand can pull him out but Sasori has no real viable defense against it.

Minor annoyances? It's an excellent support elemental technique, one for which he has no defense for again which falls into the "most elemental techniques" category



Turrin said:


> Oh in that case Iron sand can Nullify Baku by blasting Satetsu Shigure into it's mouth, not that Baku w/ it's huge form wouldn't immediately get poisoned before even doing much of anything.
> 
> FRS, it depends which one, if it's the 50% than Satetsu could just prevent Naruto from landing it until it fizzles. If it's 100% than no Iron Sand isn't an adequate defense [though Sasori can puppet swamp], but FRS is not representative of most elemental techniques, it's one of thee best we've seen in the manga cannon.


However, the sand would be used to defend against the technique not as an offensive weapon. But, for a counter attack, it's more than possible.

I'm not debating if Naruto can or can't by mere virtue of reason, Danzo would get skewered several times by Iron Sand before hitting the Vaccum Bullet. I'm just comparing the jutsu, assuming it were to hit, which is why I see any form of FRS > Iron Sand, likewise with Vacuum Bullet. I see both of these techniques breaking through. 



Turrin said:


> *Only Mei and Kisame* could produce the quantity of Suiton necessary to wash away all the poison from the Sand, and that just makes the Sand a bit less lethal, rather than actually bypassing it's defenses to do anything meaningful to Sasori.


False, many shinobi can use a large enough water-based jutsu in order to remove the poison from Sasori's puppets. Tobirama, Hashirama, Kakashi, Zabuza, Darui, Gamabunta can all make a wide-ranged water jutsu that would wash away Sasori's poisons from his sand.  



Turrin said:


> And I don't think that's happening for the same reason that Gaara's sand didn't turn to glass when met with a flame "hotter than the sun", because it's not normal magnetic force it's magic [chakra] reinforced magnetic force.


Using Gaara's sand as an example is a horrible idea because in order for glass to be properly formed, you need to transform it into a liquid, as Sasuke was on the defensive in that example, I can't really expect him to be putting that much chakra into. 



Turrin said:


> And you have the gull to talk to me about fanfiction.


At least, I can support my side far greater than yours and even you said by your own admission that Edo Sasori (e.g. Human Sasori) was shit-level. You really think he could win against the Kazekage? 



Turrin said:


> Sasori actually performed better as Tensei w/ huge disadvantages than Deidara did as a Tensei, even despite the fact that Deidara was only advantage as a Tensei. And Deidara didn't make up shit, his best feat is still winning against Gaara and vastly inferior Kazekage to the one Sasori beat back when he was weaker and than proceeded to integrate said Kazekage's powers into his own.


Not at all, Deidara fought against the Tsuchikage and the Ambush squad, Sasori didn't do shit but control an edo. 

Art doesn't imitate life, likewise having the kazekage doesn't automatically equate him the kazekage's skill. There are things that only the kazekage could have done which made him stand above the others. If Sasori had really gained that power in it's fullest extent, he would have squashed both Chiyo and Sakura.



Turrin said:


> Again his techniques are long-range, so no he is not a Mid range puppet master, he is more than capable of fighting at long-range.


Iron sand is the only thing that increases his range but like I said, Deidara can extend his range further given the fact he would know about it.


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## Turrin (Jul 8, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> If you truly believe that, then you are as bad as the idiots that quote a single verse out of context of the entire conversation and make an overarching generalization. Given that not only have I broken your argument and provided not only full and clear proof that Deidara hid his seals, also included the seal Sasuke was referencing in the statement you are benching you're holier than now semantic debate on.


Sorry, but I stopped here. Adhering to the actual definition of the words used is not a semantic debate, it's a factual one. You have also provided absolutely no evidence whatsoever that Deidara hid any seals. In-fact I've asked you on multiple occasions to show even a single instance of Deidara hiding his seals and you've failed to produce anything. If you wish to ignore factual definition of words in-order to form your opinions, that's on you, but I don't really feel compelled to discuss anything with someone willing to do so. K, peace out.


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