# Explaining Kakashi's Susanoo [Made into a thread]



## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

It's actually quite simple: just use the information that the manga previously provided and deductions from past events.

*(1) Obito leaving the afterlife.*

Multiple explanations are available. From most likely to least likely:

(a) Did Obito actually go to the afterlife or did he meet Rin like Kakashi met Sakumo? Obito's chakra didn't appear next to Kakashi via that characteristic spiral so that's evidence for this interpretation. As Obito says, chakra connects the pure world and the impure world so Kakashi meeting Sakumo and Obito meeting Rin might just be ninshuu. What follows is simply the same scenario as Dan Kato's: Obito possesses Kakashi, but instead of giving Kakashi chakra, he gives him spiritual energy.

(b) Obito managed to synchronise his Kamui with Kaguya's space-time jutsu. We also know that travel from the pure world to the impure world is possible: for example via _Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei_ or _Rinne Tensei_. Obito also learned the secrets of Edo Tensei from Kabuto. So it's possible that Obito can use Kamui to travel from the Pure World to the Impure World and Obito is the only soul who can do that.

(c) We know that Hagoromo, Indra and Ashura were transmigrating. Even if we don't know how that works, we do know it's possible. Obito was a pseudo-Rikudo and it's within the realm of possibility that he simply decided to transmigrate. It's the most handwave-like explanation, but the event is not without precedent.​
*(2) Kakashi getting Mangekyou Sharingan*

We know from Tobirama's exposition in chapter 620, that the chakra of an Uchiha causes their eyes (and only their eyes) to evolve into the sharingan.

​
Combined with the knowledge that the Uchiha inherited: the spiritual energy of the sage, the powerful chakra of the sage, and the eyes of the sage---we can deduce that for Uchiha: emotional hurt --> change in spiritual energy --> change in chakra --> change in eyes.​ This chapter changes the Uchiha specific rule from: Uchiha chakra --> Uchiha eyes --> Sharingan​ to a more generally applicable rule: Uchiha chakra --> anybody's eyes --> Sharingan​ There *is* probably a difference in the two scenarios: Uchiha eyes evolve permanently while non-Uchiha eyes evolve temporary. But in all honest: Obito's chakra + Kakashi's eyes = anything is possible​ This change is consistent with the Six Paths Technique that caused people without doujutsu to have the Rinnegan or Mangekyou Sharingan. It also makes the Izanagi Wars more plausible.​
*(3) Kakashi/Obito having Susanoo without EMS*

First of all "perfect susanoo" is not a separate jutsu.



takL said:


> yeah when maddy in the raw called it  'the complete form of susanoO'




Therefore "perfect susanoo" does not require EMS. The only requirement for Susanoo was *awakening* the Mangekyou in both eyes.

Beyond awakening Susanoo, the only other tie to the eyes is how the use of Susanoo causes blindness. This was never confirmed though; just deduced from (a) Itachi losing the light in both eyes when he stopped Kirin with Susanoo; and (b) Sasuke's rapid deterioration of his eyes (Enton stresses both eyes, Susanoo stresses both eyes, so using both causes Sasuke's eyes to deteriorate twice as fast).

But it is important to note that Susanoo doesn't materialise from the eye outward. It just appears. And we've seen a Blind Itachi materialise Susanoo (chapter 392) as well as a Madara Without Eyes materialise Susanoo (chapter 658). That makes it likely that Susanoo is an expression of an Uchiha's chakra---the powerful chakra they inherited from the Rikudo Sage.

Since both Kamui eyes awakened *and* since Obito had both Kamui eyes in his own body (however briefly), the requirements for Susanoo are met.​
*(4) Why didn't Obito use Susanoo earlier?*

First of all, Obito didn't have both eyes for the longest time. Secondly, from the moment he did have both Kamui eyes, he was on death's door. He was kept alive by Black Zetsu and Naruto and Sakura. No further explanation is necessary.​
*(5) Why doesn't Kakashi go through all the Susanoo stages?*

There have been two interpretations (models) of how Susanoo evolves.
 Susanoo evolves like the Sharingan evolves.
 Susanoo changes like the chakra construct of a jinchuriki changes when it gains an additional tail.
 These aren't mutually exclusive! We also know that Susanoo puts a strain on the body (chakra exhaustion?) that disappears after gaining EMS. In other words:
Sharingan evolves according the the quality of the spiritual energy
Susanoo evolves according the the quality of the spiritual energy
Biju constructs change depending on how many tails of chakra is put into it
Susanoo changes depending on the quantity of physical energy that is put into it
 So Susanoo requires a combination of the quality of the spiritual energy and the quantity of physical energy. If you satisfy both requirements---which Kakashi and Obito apparently do---you don't have to go through the stages.​
*(6) Why does Kakashi/Obito have the quality of the spiritual energy necessary for Susanoo?*

Obviously, Kakashi doesn't have the spiritual energy of the Rikudo Sage; he just has spiritual energy that is compatible with Obito's sharingan.

We can deduce that each level of spiritual energy corresponds to a particular Doujutsu:
spiritual level A = regular sharingan
spiritual level B = Mangekyou sharingan with blindness
spiritual level C = Mangekyou sharingan without blindness
spiritual level D = Rinnegan
The change from MS to EMS doubles the quality of the spiritual energy which reduces the required quantity of physical energy for Susanoo by half. Sasuke demonstrated this when he took Itachi's eyes: merging his own Mangekyou spiritual energy with the Mangekyou spiritual energy of Itachi. Obito doesn't have this option.

Obito has the spiritual energy for Mangekyou Sharingan which is enough to satisfy Susanoo.  He never awakened the Rinnegan, because he doesn't have Indra's chakra. Yet he probably has multiple sources of spiritual energy due to Ashura's/Hashirama's chakra and possessing Kakashi adds another source.​
*(7) Why does this Susanoo look like a merger of Obito and Kakashi?*

This is actually the interesting part. We know that the shape of Susanoo reflects an Uchiha's chakra. So this panel shows us something significant:



It shows us that the Susanoo reflects both Obito's and Kakashi's chakra. And the Senjutsu Susanoo from Sasuke and Juugo established a precedent for this event.

This also suggests something very important about the success and failure of Sharingan transplants. Kakashi's sharingan is compatible with him, because Obito gave the eye to Kakashi. Sasuke is compatible with Itachi's eyes because Itachi loved his younger brother. Ditto for Madara. So transplants might not require genetic compatibility, nor chakra compatibility but spiritual energy compatibility and...dare I say...*teamwork*.​
*(8) Why does Kakashi have the chakra reserves for Susanoo?*

Kakashi's chakra exhaustion has context. Kakashi spent a month training before the Invasion by Sand and Sound. Before that, Kakashi became exhausted from using the regular Sharingan; afterwards he didn't. After the time-skip, Kakashi only became exhausted from using Kamui. So while the sharingan put a strain on Kakashi's body, sufficient training could reduce the strain. The real question is: Why didn't Kakashi train more to reduce the strain of using Kamui?

In Part 2, chakra reserves varied as the plot demanded. Naruto was always arriving to fight looking exhausted. Sasuke was given chakra infusions by every friends and foe in his vicinity. Characters who weren't jinchuriki were stated to have jinchuriki-level or even biju-level chakra reserves. It was a mess. Then during the War arc, Kishimoto switched to a model that makes more sense: chakra reserves varied according to the rule of drama. (And the same is true for Kakashi's blindness: all according to the rule of drama.)

That said, it's not as if Kishimoto *totally* ignored the principles he set up; he just didn't apply them consistently.




Klue said:


> "_I haven't even fully materialized the Susano'o, and it feels as if every cell in my body hurts. How much pain did Itachi go through._" - Sasuke with his inherited Uchiha body




This tells us something significant about Susanoo:
 Awakening Susanoo depends on the eye.
 Using Susanoo depends on the body.
And we know that the Uchiha didn't inherit the Body of the Sage. But the Uchiha did inherit powerful spiritual energy! When Sasuke implanted Itachi's eyes, their spiritual energies merged: Sasuke's spiritual energy doubled, the power of his chakra was doubled, and correspondingly the strain on his body was halved. But if the Uchiha have sufficient physical energy for Susanoo, then other ninja can have sufficient physical energy as well.

Back to Kakashi. He doesn't have the spiritual energy of the Uchiha, so he more than likely has to compensate the lack of quality of his chakra via the quantity of chakra. He doesn't have Obito's sharingan any more, so he doesn't have the strain of that sharingan any more either. And since Kakashi's eyes have been transformed into sharingan, there's no reason to think that puts any strain on his body. In other words, what we have here is: Obito's spiritual energy + Kakashi's spiritual energy + Kakashi's physical energy​One can say that chakra reserves are meaningless, or try to look at the in-universe logic. Either way, there's nothing really preventing this Susanoo from forming.​
*(9) Why can Kakashi use Susanoo so easily?*

We can easily switch the question around: Why *shouldn't* Kakashi use Susanoo so easily? Not just the Uchiha use their Sharingan & Mangekyou abilities so easily---Kakashi used the Sharingan easily in Kakashi Gaiden. The only ability that requires training is Sharingan Genjutsu, but even that doesn't apply to Mangekyou genjutsu.

More to the point: Susanoo is nothing but an extension of the body so it moves with the same grace as the user's body does.​


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## Ninja Shadow Warrior (Aug 7, 2014)

Good read. Repworthy for effort and content.


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## KibaforHokage (Aug 7, 2014)

Nice thread, I reped you for using manga and not just fan assumptions


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## Pocalypse (Aug 7, 2014)

1) He did go to the afterlife otherwise how can he talk to Rin? Rin even touches him in the afterlife and she is dead, and Obito went to the exact same place. Dan?s technique was used when he was alive and it just brings out his spirit form, it?s a technique. Obito Kamui?s himself from the dead AND possesses a real living person in the real world. Explain how Obito went back to the afterlife after giving his power away?

2) And yet Kakashi isn?t an Uchiha so this doesn?t evolve him. He didn?t awaken the MS eyes, he was gifted by Obito through a transplant. Obito says he has a ?present? for him. 

3) No, it has been shown that PS was only used when Madara and Sasuke had EMS. It can?t be a coincidence, then why the hell hasn?t Itachi got PS?

4) What? Obito woke up in 683 with both pair of his MS eyes and didn?t bust out Susano?o. Or what about the time when he ran to jump in front of the bone and instead of using Susano?o, he just let himself be penetrated?

5 and 6) Does not make Kakashi the exception. EMS users like Madara still  went through the stages when he was introduced, it?s not like he busted out PS on the spot. Same with Sasuke, and same with Itachi with his regular Susano?o. They all go through stages. Kakashi comes in and defies cellular destruction for starters and starts using Susano?o at the highest level like he?s the one who created the technique.

The rest is mainly repeated stuff.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

@Ninja Shadow Warrior

@KibaforHokage


Thanks.




Pocalypse said:


> 1) He did go to the afterlife otherwise how can he talk to Rin? Rin even touches him in the afterlife and she is dead, and Obito went to the exact same place. Dan’s technique was used when he was alive and it just brings out his spirit form, it’s a technique. Obito Kamui’s himself from the dead AND possesses a real living person in the real world.




You might want to actually read that part again. 

EDIT: I provide 3 explanations. Don't respond to them as one explanation.




Pocalypse said:


> Explain how Obito went back to the afterlife after giving his power away?






EDIT: I understand what you mean from another thread. It's simple: the Pure World is the natural destination for souls, so Obito needs Kamui to get out of the Pure World, but doesn't need Kamui to get back into it. And that's assuming that Obito's soul loses his Kamui eyes which I find an odd assumption given how they all look like their 13 year old's selves.




Pocalypse said:


> 2) And yet Kakashi isn’t an Uchiha so this doesn’t evolve him. He didn’t awaken the MS eyes, he was gifted by Obito through a transplant. Obito says he has a “present” for him.




And your counterpoint is...?

EDIT: Transplant?  It should be obvious that Kakashi's eyes are transformed by Obito's "present"---which is probably just chakra as that's what is known to transform eyes into sharingan.




Pocalypse said:


> 3) No, it has been shown that PS was only used when Madara and Sasuke had EMS. It can’t be a coincidence, then why the hell hasn’t Itachi got PS?




As takL continues to post, _Perfect Susanoo_ is a fan nickname and the raw says it's simply the "complete form of Susanoo".

Itachi lacked a combination of (a) the spiritual energy; and (b) chakra quantity...to create the *complete form of Susanoo*.




Pocalypse said:


> 4) What? Obito woke up in 683 with both pair of his MS eyes and didn’t bust out Susano’o. Or what about the time when he ran to jump in front of the bone and instead of using Susano’o, he just let himself be penetrated?




And...?

EDIT: How many times have we seen plot induced stupidity?




Pocalypse said:


> 5 and 6) Does not make Kakashi the exception. EMS users like Madara still  went through the stages when he was introduced, it’s not like he busted out PS on the spot. Same with Sasuke, and same with Itachi with his regular Susano’o. They all go through stages. Kakashi comes in and defies cellular destruction for starters and starts using Susano’o at the highest level like he’s the one who created the technique.




 And my entire argument is that Kakashi isn't an exception to the rules. Your reading comprehension is astounding.

And those Uchiha go through the stages because their bodies aren't good enough for Susanoo. I mention that in my post, but it's becoming obvious you only skimmed it.




Pocalypse said:


> The rest is mainly repeated stuff.




Maybe so, but it's answering questions that I've seen repeatedly posted.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 7, 2014)

I am really facepalming hard to those who are trying to come up with logical explanations to this mess 

Does anyone remember the last days of school ? You can do crazy shit and teachers will go "Bah fuck it, this is the last day, let them have their time." 

The exact same thing is happening right now. Kishimoto is using the liberty of "end of manga." He can do anything @ this point. And he doesn't even need to explain it(not that he can anyway). You just have to go with it.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> (a) Did Obito actually go to the afterlife? Obito's chakra didn't appear next to Kakashi via that characteristic spiral. As Obito says, chakra connects the pure world and the impure world so maybe Obito simply connected to the pure world. This is simply the same scenario as Dan Kato's.



No! He was just fucking around! 



Of course Obito died.

Dan was using his jutsu as a living person and that one tima as an Edo, he took the possibility to escape the cancelling of ET and say goodbye to Tsunade before he was effectively "brought" to Pure World.He never made it from Pure World to Impure World on his own.



NarutoShion4ever said:


> (b) Kamui can connect dimensions. We know that travel from the pure world to the impure world is possible from Edo Tensei. In other words, Obito is the only one who can travel like this.



Edo Tensei is necromancy technique that requires living sacrifice, it's not a space time jutsu, which isn't dependand on people dying for the tech to work.

The fact that Kamui can sync with Kaguya's teleportation isn't evidence that Kamui can connect every dimension possible, let alone that it can let you move between living and dead world.



NarutoShion4ever said:


> (c) We know that Hagoromo, Indra and Ashura were transmigrating. We don't know how that works. *Obito was a pseudo-Rikudo...so Obito simply decided to transmigrate is within the realm of possibility*. It's the most handwave-like explanation, but it's not without precedent.



The only explanation that stands some ground...



NarutoShion4ever said:


> (2) Kakashi getting Mangekyou Sharingan
> 
> We know from Tobirama's exposition that it's the Uchiha's chakra that evolve their eyes into the sharingan. The only change this chapter introduces is from:Uchiha chakra --> Uchiha eyes --> Sharingan​to*Uchiha chakra --> non-Uchiha eyes --> Sharingan*​A rule change isn't necessarily a bad thing and this change actually makes more sense given the Izanagi Wars. There's probably a difference in the two scenarios: Uchiha eyes evolve permanently while non-Uchiha eyes evolve temporary.



Incoming revival of the Uchiha clan: some long dead clan members transfer their chakra to various people's reproductive organs causing them to have Sharingan babies. If sheer chakra gives you physical Sharingan eye, why not have chakra influence sperm and egg cells?

This is going to be Orochimaru's dream world: ET Uchiha clan, redirect their chakra onto living people and cultivate Sharingan!


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## Saturnine (Aug 7, 2014)

Well, I always went with the theory that Susanoo matures as do the eyes. Even though it could never have been activated since Obito's MS was in two separate bodies since day one, the eyes matured on their own. Obito had his MS for like 15 years, Kakashi likewise. Though Obito used his more, it's fair to assume that Kakashi's should have seen similar development. Which is why Perfect Susanoo is plausible.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> No! He was just fucking around!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm suggesting that Obito is still inbetween worlds. Like Kakashi and Sakumo.




Last Rose of Summer said:


> Edo Tensei is necromancy technique that requires living sacrifice, it's not a space time jutsu, which isn't dependand on people dying for the tech to work.
> 
> The fact that Kamui can sync with Kaguya's teleportation isn't evidence that Kamui can connect every dimension possible, let alone that it can let you move between living and dead world.




Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei  It's a space-time jutsu.

So purely based on that, it's possible that Obito can sync his Kamui such that he can travel between the Pure and Impure worlds.




Last Rose of Summer said:


> The only explanation that stands some ground...




Changed your mind yet?




Last Rose of Summer said:


> Incoming revival of the Uchiha clan: some long dead clan members transfer their chakra to various people's reproductive organs causing them to have Sharingan babies. If sheer chakra gives you physical Sharingan eye, why not have chakra influence sperm and egg cells?
> 
> This is going to be Orochimaru's dream world: ET Uchiha clan, redirect their chakra onto living people and cultivate Sharingan!




Because it was explicitly stated that Uchiha chakra only affect the eyes?

 Still allows the Senju and Uzumaki to revive exactly as you said---provided that all it takes is choosing to transmigrate.




Saturnine said:


> Well, I always went with the theory that Susanoo matures as do the eyes. Even though it could never have been activated since Obito's MS was in two separate bodies since day one, the eyes matured on their own. Obito had his MS for like 15 years, Kakashi likewise. Though Obito used his more, it's fair to assume that Kakashi's should have seen similar development. Which is why Perfect Susanoo is plausible.




It's also the perfect counter to anyone asking why Obito didn't use it previously. One Kamui was adjusted to Obito's chakra while the other was adjusted to Kakashi's chakra. Now Obito and Kakashi work together in one body (Kakashi's) so only now can a fully formed susanoo be used (i.e. Perfect Susanoo).


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## Klue (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei  It's a space-time jutsu.
> 
> So purely based on that, it's possible that Obito can sync his Kamui such that he can travel between the Pure and Impure worlds.



And Minato / Tobirama influencing the physical world whenever they choose to.

Awesome.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Aug 7, 2014)

Great thread.

What do you mean Kakashis Susanoo has his and Obitos likeness?


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

Klue said:


> And Minato / Tobirama influencing the physical world whenever they choose to.
> 
> Awesome.




Tobirama never figured that out without sacrificing someone, so he can't do it from the Pure World. 

Minato...well...he hasn't been to the Pure World yet 




Naruto Uzumaki said:


> Great thread.
> 
> What do you mean Kakashis Susanoo has his and Obitos likeness?




Susanoo is related to the Uchiha's spiritual energy. Kakashi's Susanoo can therefore only come from Obito's spiritual energy. But the Susanoo also has the exact same facial scar as Kakashi has. Conclusion: its appearance is a combination of Obito and Kakashi.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> I'm suggesting that Obito is still inbetween worlds. Like Kakashi and Sakumo.



Great, why hasn't Kakashi used Kamui the leave the in-between life, when he met his father?

Both Kakashi and Obito were dead: *it required revival technique Rinne Tensei to bring back Kakashi.*



NarutoShion4ever said:


> Kuchiyose: Edo Tensei  It's a space-time jutsu.
> 
> So purely based on that, it's possible that Obito can sync his Kamui such that he can travel between the Pure and Impure worlds.



When you summon the coffin to the place you want it to be... you have some space time effect. 

If you are dead - soul only -  and you can still your jutsus, then I wait for all other souls to come down to earth (via Kamui of course) and start using it in the world of living.

Why hasn't Obito use Kamui to enter the afterlife, if Kamui grants you this BS ability?



NarutoShion4ever said:


> Changed your mind yet?



No. Hagoromo granting Sasuke and Naruto superpower was shit. _This_ was beyond pathetic.




NarutoShion4ever said:


> Because it was explicitly stated that Uchiha chakra only affect the eyes?
> 
> Still allows the Senju and Uzumaki to revive exactly as you said---provided that all it takes is choosing to transmigrate.




Oh really? How about it affecting their brains (supposed madness) and bodies (Susanoo side effects)?




NarutoShion4ever said:


> It's also the perfect counter to anyone asking why Obito didn't use it previously. One Kamui was adjusted to Obito's chakra while the other was adjusted to Kakashi's chakra. Now Obito and Kakashi work together in one body (Kakashi's) so only now can a fully formed susanoo be used (i.e. Perfect Susanoo).



Mon Dieu! Izuna must have been possesing Madara, since his MS was adjusted to him and not Madara!


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## Bender (Aug 7, 2014)

"Possibly" does not provide sufficient evidence that Kakashi can use Susanoo. Also your evidence is lacking.


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Tobirama never figured that out without sacrificing someone, so he can't do it from the Pure World.
> 
> Minato...well...he hasn't been to the Pure World yet
> 
> ...



Yeah I see now and a forehead protector as well.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

Last Rose of Summer said:


> Oh really? How about it affecting their brains (supposed madness) and bodies (Susanoo side effects)?




Emotional pain affected their brains which affected their spiritual energy which affected their chakra which affected their eyes. 

Susanoo affects their bodies like all chakra exhaustion affects bodies.


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> Emotional pain affected their brains which affected their spiritual energy which affected their chakra which affected their eyes.
> 
> Susanoo affects their bodies like all chakra exhaustion affects bodies.



Since when does spiritual energy only work in eyes? Sharingan is visible sign of inner brain and chakra change.

Susanoo doesn't even require having physical eyes in order to be used: ask Madara.


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## the real anti christ (Aug 7, 2014)

All I know if that Orochimaru is rolling over in his Infinite tuskuyomi cocoon. Kakashi is living his dream.


Itachi told Kakashi that his body was suitable for the sharingan, but he lacked the genetics...  I don't know how that applies to this situation but it seems he had more control over his power this time round. I don't really get that.


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## spiritmight (Aug 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am really facepalming hard to those who are trying to come up with logical explanations to this mess
> 
> Does anyone remember the last days of school ? You can do crazy shit and teachers will go "Bah fuck it, this is the last day, let them have their time."
> 
> The exact same thing is happening right now. Kishimoto is using the liberty of "end of manga." He can do anything @ this point. And he doesn't even need to explain it(not that he can anyway). You just have to go with it.





Or maybe people are trying to actually guess at the explanation Kishi will offer next week instead of whining like children


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## Blaze Release (Aug 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am really facepalming hard to those who are trying to come up with logical explanations to this mess



This.
Hilarious how people have convinced themselves that they are filling in the gaps.
Obvious that, when the time comes and kishi hits a brick wall he goes agains't his own ideas, this isn't the first time.

Kakashi was useless in this fight. He had to make him relevant again.
Simple as that. Everything is plot. If needed shit happens, don't know why people think they are applying logic to this rather basic fact.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Good point about there always remaining some chakra behind.

That was initially my thinking too: a transplanted sharingan is powered by two sources of chakra. In all honesty, I like the explanation that the Uchiha fans came up with better: it's the spiritual energy that's mixing.

Sidenote: And the spiritual energy mixing can even grant Kakashi his own regular, controllable sharingan.

Then again, the spiritual energy explanation is only useful for sharingan transplants. With mokuton transplants it's about the life force and mokuton nature of that chakra---which cannot be reduced to physical energy or spiritual energy. With Juugo's Cursed Seal, it's the enzymes in his body. And with the Byakugan, it is about the eyeball.

Pictures are always useful. It just takes too much time, IMHO.




Amat?rasu?s Son said:


> It wasn't copying. Uchiha techniques are instinctive. With Obito's chakra and likely Obito's knowledge he was able to generate the Perfect Susano'o, or rather the power reached a critical mass that allows it to stabilize.
> 
> I say that because Sasuke never directly witnessed Madara's Perfect Susano'o either but he was still able to utilize it.
> 
> ...




Indra's Susanoo is achieved with his own chakra. But yeah, I agree that for Indra's descendants, Susanoo requires cooperation. Which makes it deliciously ironic that they don't believe in teamwork.  No wonder that the only transplants that succeeded were from brothers.

Again though, I do believe more in the concept of "spiritual energy fusion" than "chakra fusion". It's just easier to accept that an eyeball can generate a lot of spiritual energy than to accept that it can create a lot of chakra. There's clearly a limit to the spiritual energy fusion though, otherwise Kakashi wouldn't have such problems with his sharingan in the first place.

Transplanting the Younger Son's abilities requires "DNA fusion". Which is fitting because they prefer real world cooperation.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Aug 7, 2014)

NarutoShion4ever said:


> *(2) Kakashi getting Mangekyou Sharingan*
> 
> We know from Tobirama's exposition that it's the Uchiha's chakra that evolve their eyes into the sharingan (and only their eyes). The only change this chapter introduces is from: Uchiha chakra --> Uchiha eyes --> Sharingan​ to Uchiha chakra --> non-Uchiha eyes --> Sharingan​
> A rule change isn't necessarily a bad thing and this change actually makes more sense given the Izanagi Wars. There's probably a difference in the two scenarios: Uchiha eyes evolve permanently while non-Uchiha eyes evolve temporary.​


It's also reminiscent of Nagato's chakra changing Pein's eyes into Rinnegan, a physical change even remaining when "dead." Unfortunately Kishi hid the bodies' eyes when the chakra rods were removed, so the Rinnegan may have only lasted as long as chakra was being transmitted.


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 7, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> It's also reminiscent of Nagato's chakra changing Pein's eyes into Rinnegan, a physical change even remaining when "dead." Unfortunately Kishi hid the bodies' eyes when the chakra rods were removed, so the Rinnegan may have only lasted as long as chakra was being transmitted.




Exactly. What was then explained by the outer path jutsu, is now part of a larger pattern.


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## ShinobisWill (Aug 7, 2014)

the real anti christ said:


> *All I know if that Orochimaru is rolling over in his Infinite tuskuyomi cocoon. Kakashi is living his dream.*



 Just realized that. Thank you.

Kakashi + 1

Orochimaru - 0


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## Last Rose of Summer (Aug 8, 2014)

Doctor Crane said:


> It's also reminiscent of Nagato's chakra changing Pein's eyes into Rinnegan, a physical change even remaining when "dead." Unfortunately Kishi hid the bodies' eyes when the chakra rods were removed, so the Rinnegan may have only lasted as long as chakra was being transmitted.



Six Paths jutsu was a technique used by a living person on dead bodies and affecting living world from living world, not living world from afterlife.  You don't see Nagato's soul resurrecting himself via summoning King of Hell in afterlife and jumping into the world of living.


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## T-Bag (Aug 8, 2014)

lmfao.. unbelievable


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## Kishido (Aug 8, 2014)

Nice read but more itneresting what happens AFTER all this.

Will he keep the Sharingan? If yes, how can he be able to let them activate all the time without being auto drained... Sooner or later he would lose his light as well.

Only chance to get over it is... Him being magically able to deactivate the Sharingan like a normal Uchiha... And of course EMS.

Can't see it happening.

Will he lose it after this fight... Most likely scenario... But all the chapters about him being useless without it and even more this chapter would be worthless... And Kakashi without Sharingan = Hokage... Oh well.

And my biggest question. Wy Kishi even restored his normal eye back? If he some chapters later got MS from Obito.

And this is my theory about it. This time the Sharingans he got aren't "true eyeballs" but for real just chakra by Obito, which let Kakashi's NORMAL eyes being transformed into MS. This would make more sense than Obito coming from his after life and plugging out his eye balls.

This method would be similar to Itachi's... And with it the 2 scenarious could happen. Either he will lose the MS chakra and will have 2 healthy normal eyes... or because it isn't a plugged in Sharingan he somehow will be able to deactivate it like an Uchiha


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 8, 2014)

spiritmight said:


> Or maybe people are trying to actually guess at the explanation Kishi will offer next week instead of whining like children



Or maybe they aren't aware that this manga is written for children and Kishimoto doesn't give a shit anymore or they don't have any decent intellectual capacity to criticise it, so they swallow whatever comes out from Kishimoto's dickpen. I'll go with the latter


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## MS81 (Aug 8, 2014)

this right here!!! 





BlinkST said:


> The whole "tomoe" thing also leads back to japanese folklore:
> 
> The most important magatama beads are called the yasakani no magatama and is one of the imperial regalia objects. In this context the beads are believed to possess the soul of a person wherein it can be passed on to others as a means of passing one's authority or power to its receiver. Izanagi's gift of these beads to Amaterasu is so important because in doing so, “Izanagi ceded all of his spiritual power to Ama-terasu-opo-mi-kami” to rule with (Philippi 71). This is because Izanagi had previously put his soul into the beads by shaking them (indication of a spirit pacification ritual) (Philippi 71). The transfer of power and authority to rule Japan has been handed down in this way - through the yasakani no magatama beads - from Amaterasu to her descendants, right up to the present emperor and continues to be done through the imperial accession ceremony (Ebersole 96).
> 
> ...


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 8, 2014)

Kishido said:


> Nice read but more itneresting what happens AFTER all this.
> 
> Will he keep the Sharingan? If yes, how can he be able to let them activate all the time without being auto drained... Sooner or later he would lose his light as well.
> 
> ...




Thanks. That's the question and Kishimoto can go in various directions. Maybe Kakashi ends up with a hybrid-sharingan (got no better word for it): his own eyes permanently evolved such that they can turn into the sharingan. Major benefit: Kakashi can read porn with both eyes again! 

Or after Obito leaves, Kakashi loses the sharingan permanently.

Any option between those extremes are also on the table. *shrugs*




Kishido said:


> And this is my theory about it. This time the Sharingans he got aren't "true eyeballs" but for real just chakra by Obito, which let Kakashi's NORMAL eyes being transformed into MS. This would make more sense than Obito coming from his after life and plugging out his eye balls.
> 
> This method would be similar to Itachi's... And with it the 2 scenarious could happen. Either he will lose the MS chakra and will have 2 healthy normal eyes... or because it isn't a plugged in Sharingan he somehow will be able to deactivate it like an Uchiha




That is in my post; it's what I believed happened.  (It's heading #2)




MS81 said:


> this right here!!!




Your reply is a quote from someone else?  So...you agree, disagree, believe that BlinkST has the right answer?


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## NarutoShion4ever (Aug 9, 2014)

Did quite a bit of editing to clarify the post. Removing passive voice, improving sentence structures, adding information, moving information to remove redundancy....

Original version is .

New version is .​
For anyone who's interested.


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