# Beerus vs. GT Goku



## Venice (Jun 27, 2015)

Beerus takes on Goku during these certain events of GT:

Goku pre-tail, can use all his SSJ forms minus Golden Oozaru/SSJ4.

Goku with his tail, still can use all his SSJ forms minus Golden Oozaru/SSJ4.

Golden Oozaru Goku.

SSj4 Goku when he fought Baby.


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## Xiammes (Jun 27, 2015)

Doesn't GT get DBZ anime scailing? If so that should be more then Bills can handle.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 27, 2015)

oh boy, another one of these

in 2015

I'll do my part and quote the madness of GT's power inflations



Crimson Dragoon said:


> I might as well say Syn Shenron is literally hundreds of times stronger than Vegeto
> 
> how?
> 
> ...



in short:

[YOUTUBE]XR46WbmYFyQ[/YOUTUBE]


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 28, 2015)

Interestingly enough, GT canonizes Coola's movie to the anime, so Goku's mftl kamahameha is legit.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

the fastest kamehamehas are in Revenge of Cooler, Broly Second Coming, and the Baby Saga 

the filler one during the sun crisis is pretty tame in comparison to all of those, which should "merely" be high relativistic to maybe barely FTL as darthg "lazy calced" it a while ago


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## Imperator100 (Jun 28, 2015)

This thread feels quite familiar, if you know what I mean.
Frankly I can't imagine Beerus beating Toei Continuity Buu, who has beat in speed by thousands of times, hax, and likely in DC (destroying the largest stars in a galaxy would get over 100 Foe of energy, which should be above what Beerus can give off). GT Goku, as said above, easily fodderizes Buu. Goku can probably do this in Base Form.


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## Venice (Jun 28, 2015)

Eh, to try and make it more even what-if Beerus gets anime scaling?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

GT makes Vegetto look like far more of a scrub in comparison to their new guys and fancy power-ups than the new movies ever did


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## Freddy Mercury (Jun 28, 2015)

Ajimu solos


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

hell, I can argue with complete sincerity that SSJ Goku as of the Super 17 Saga surpasses Super Vegetto


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jun 28, 2015)

> Super 17 Saga



The only decent GT saga.


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## Imagine (Jun 28, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> Ajimu solos


Kid Goku stomps


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> The only decent GT saga.



more like the worst 

anyway, since Super Baby Vegeta 1 surpasses Vegetto, and Uub after merging with Fat Buu forced SBV 2 to exert actual effort in their beam clash, this should mean SBV 2 > Super Uub > SBV 1 > Super Vegetto 

then the Super 17 Saga arrives, with Uub's kick to Super 17's back being no-sold while SSJ Goku's punch sent him flying hundreds of miles away


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## Imperator100 (Jun 28, 2015)

Venice said:


> Eh, to try and make it more even what-if Beerus gets anime scaling?



...I'm not quite sure what to make of this, but I personally enjoy fun with continuities so I'll do my best.

If we are saying that Manga and Anime are fused in some kind of composite then Beerus pretty clearly takes all the scenarios up to the last one since only Initial SSJ4 Goku surpassed Vegito. Even then, Beerus was above Vegito pretty signifigantly, Goku clearly comparing against a Beerus not going full-out versus Baby Vegeta being unquantifiably above Vegito. 

That said, if they are Initial SSJ4 Goku and Beerus are not hugely disparate in power, I could maybe see Goku getting a victory. Goku created a hole in spacetime when that dimension was collasing around him. Not nearly as powerful as wankers make it out to be, but any degree of spacetime destruction is a pretty good hax ability to have and might be able to take out Beerus. I also recall him showing energy absorption which means even if Beerus is somewhat more powerful Goku might be able to absorb his energy.

That said Beerus ability to not be ki-sensed is pretty big and I don't see Goku losing the majority of times even in the last scenario.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Baby Vegeta being unquantifiably above Vegito



more than ten times at least, in the case of Golden Oozaru Baby 

a list of why GT went full retard with the power creep:

-Base Goku having a slight advantage against someone stronger than a form of Buu
-Base Goku destroying a pocket dimension, which is at least an SSJ3 level feat
-Super Baby Vegeta 1 ratcheting up the bullshit
-Golden Oozarus
-implied zenkai style power-ups, like the Super 17 shit I noted 
-its love of ten-times multipliers


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jun 28, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> more like the worst



And here I was, taking you for someone with good taste.


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## Imperator100 (Jun 28, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> more than ten times at least, in the case of Golden Oozaru Baby
> 
> a list of why GT went full retard with the power creep:
> 
> ...



As someone who thinks of power creep as less of a bug and more of a feature I must confess I also saw it as somewhat excessive.

Hmmm it seems somewhat unclear who would be actually stronger in Venice's scenario then, it depends heavily on how powerful Beerus is compared to Vegito. If they are around the same level of power then I would actually favor Goku in as an SSJ4, due to him having better abilities.

Is this in-character or bloodlusted? In-character might favor Goku slightly more since Beerus is arrogant enough to play around while SSJ4 made Goku quite vicious.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> And here I was, taking you for someone with good taste.



someone who thinks the Super 17 arc was the best of anything in DB-related stuff aside from the best at being bad has no right to judge someone else's tastes


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jun 28, 2015)

Didn't Super 17, at least in the English dub, say that he's only twice as strong as Android 17? 

Oh, and Trunks was badly injured by a car crash, IIRC.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 28, 2015)

Well the second 17, was a match for Vegeta...so I don't think it works like that.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

because DB dubs are the epitome of accuracy


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## The Saltiest Pizza (Jun 28, 2015)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Well the second 17, was a match for Vegeta...so I don't think it works like that.



No matter what, GT sucks.


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## Imperator100 (Jun 28, 2015)

Colonel Awesome said:


> Didn't Super 17, at least in the English dub, say that he's only twice as strong as Android 17?



Maybe Android 17 got a God Form like Frieza. 
Also 1,000th post!


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jun 28, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> *someone who thinks the Super 17 arc was the best of anything in DB-related stuff* aside from the best at being bad has no right to judge someone else's tastes



Yea, that's not what I said. 

So in addition to not having quite-as-good taste, you also can't read?


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 28, 2015)

Thats the thing with GT, going by actual feats its an inconsistent mess that can either surpass Z or be laughably below it. 
Through the show's own power scaling though, its way way waaaay above it. (though Vegito could arguably beat Baby 2 anyway, he never used his SSJ2 or 3)


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## Tom Servo (Jun 28, 2015)

Shouldn't GT Goku be galaxy level powerscaling from DBZ anime feats?

as for the show itself, say what you want about GT but the shadow dragons saga was a perfect conclusion to the story itself and beats the crap out of the actual laughable excuse for an epilogue AT made in the final chapter.


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## Xiammes (Jun 28, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Shouldn't GT Goku be galaxy level powerscaling from DBZ anime feats?
> 
> as for the show itself, say what you want about GT but the shadow dragons saga was a perfect conclusion to the story itself and beats the crap out of the actual laughable excuse for an epilogue AT made in the final chapter.



What Galaxy level feat? The Buu one was over a course of millions of years. Omega Shenrons feat would also be over time and a chain reaction.

I do agree that Shadow Dragon arc was the best arc, its the only one that I have willing watched without rewatching the entire series.


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## Tom Servo (Jun 28, 2015)

Xiammes said:


> What Galaxy level feat? The Buu one was over a course of millions of years. Omega Shenrons feat would also be over time and a chain reaction.
> 
> I do agree that Shadow Dragon arc was the best arc, its the only one that I have willing watched without rewatching the entire series.


Yeah in the manga Buu is nowhere near galaxy level

but In the anime it gives us a visual of a galaxy or two disintegrating while Kaoishin is narrating about Buu's past.


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## Xiammes (Jun 28, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Yeah in the manga Buu is nowhere near galaxy level
> 
> but In the anime it gives us a visual of a galaxy or two disintegrating while Kaoishin is narrating about Buu's past.



That doesn't mean it was in real time, it was just talking about the event itself not that Buu one shotted a galaxy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 28, 2015)

The only thing I remember about DBGT's feats is that they were consistently below, barring speed (maybe) what we saw in Z in both anime and manga form. I mean SSJ4 Goku struggling to hold up half a city?


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## Tom Servo (Jun 28, 2015)

Xiammes said:


> That doesn't mean it was in real time, it was just talking about the event itself not that Buu one shotted a galaxy.



What about Anime Buuhan's universe busting scream?


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jun 28, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Shouldn't GT Goku be galaxy level powerscaling from DBZ anime feats?
> 
> as for the show itself, say what you want about GT but the shadow dragons saga was a perfect conclusion to the story itself and beats the crap out of the actual laughable excuse for an epilogue AT made in the final chapter.



Actually, i thought that arc was pretty terrible, at least until Nuova showed up. The ending was horrendous, Goku disappears for a hundred years, and even then he doesn't bother visiting his living friends?


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## Expelsword (Jun 28, 2015)

Can we ban DB vs. DB yet?


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## Extravlad (Jun 28, 2015)

Beerus curbstomp.
No GT character is even close to his strength.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 28, 2015)

Yami Munesanzun said:


> Yea, that's not what I said.
> 
> So in addition to not having quite-as-good taste, you also can't read?



you said it was the only decent GT arc, therefore you think it was the best GT arc 



Azrael Finalstar said:


> Through the show's own power scaling though, its way way waaaay above it. (though Vegito could arguably beat Baby 2 anyway, he never used his SSJ2 or 3)



the powerscaling for this is:

Golden Oozaru Baby > Hypothetical SSJ3 Vegetto > Super Baby 2 > Hypothetical SSJ2 Vegetto > Super Baby 1 > SSJ Vegetto



Xiammes said:


> What Galaxy level feat? The Buu one was over a course of millions of years.



the sub said it took a "few years", like the manga, just with a galaxy slowly vanishing


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## Imperator100 (Jun 28, 2015)

Extravlad said:


> Beerus curbstomp.
> No GT character is even close to his strength.



Yeah no. Anime continuity DBZ is far superior in power to manga continuity so most GT characters get scaled to feat far above what Beerus is scalable to. It's only in a hypothetical scenario like the op suggested that it's even a question. Anime Buu stops Beerus otherwise.


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## Tom Servo (Jun 28, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Actually, i thought that arc was pretty terrible, at least until Nuova showed up. The ending was horrendous, Goku disappears for a hundred years, and even then he doesn't bother visiting his living friends?



That doesnt  the ending bad, if anything its consistent with what a shitty person Goku haslways been , hell thats literally what happened 3 times in a row at the end of dbz, also arrying chi chi not because he loved or even liked her but because he misunderstood, hell im still 100% positive he doesnt know what marriage is and his family is just  with him tillhis next adventure

The GT ending was great because t wrapped it up, it taught them to rely on themselves nd ot the dragon balls and Goku finally retired as earths champion (granted his grandson is a total pussy but still kind f a neat perspective how different he is)

With dbz it just ends with a rushed epilogue (Goku leaves his family to live with an indian boy so  he can force the mantle of earths protector on him)


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## Iwandesu (Jun 28, 2015)

i'm surprisingly with tom here
gt ending was quite legit
albeit the anime as a whole was disappointing
also lol about super 17 being the best arc


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2015)

By OBD logic, GT Goku wins.
By DB power scaling, Beerus wins.

Outside the OBD, I wouldn't compare which verison of DBZ we are using. I'd simply address how they relate to previous tiers.

Inside the OBD, we'd evaluate them separately, so anime scaling does it for GT.


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## Fang (Jun 29, 2015)

I don't understand how GT remotely scales with Z's movie continuity.


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2015)

It doesn't, it's just in the OBD, we give GT the benefit of the anime continuity.


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## Fang (Jun 29, 2015)

That doesn't answer my question


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2015)

You didn't ask a question.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jun 29, 2015)

Fang said:


> I don't understand how GT remotely scales with Z's movie continuity.



It doesn't

DBZ Toei Anime does link directly to GT though IIRC


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Akira Toriyama said that Beerus is a galaxy destroyer. 

Show one feat that GT Goku has shown anything remotely galaxy level destroyer? 

Also show feat demonstrating FTL level speed Beerus is capable of?


In BoG Beerus was only using a fraction of his power. If he went all out he'd snap GT Goku like a twig.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2015)

Fang said:


> I don't understand how GT remotely scales with Z's movie continuity.



movies have always been weird regarding the established timeline, but GT apparently considers Cooler's existence, despite it not making sense

that's Toei for you 



Bender said:


> Akira Toriyama said that Beerus is a galaxy destroyer.



cite this

it won't be accepted either way, but cite it anyway

actually, even better, never post in this section again


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

It was stated in prelude to the BoG movie. How the fuck can people forget that shit?


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2015)

> Akira Toriyama said that Beerus is a galaxy destroyer.


 I didn't think OBD gave Beerus the benefit of that.

If they did, then yeah. Beerus stomps.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2015)

are you using the english dub?

I bet you're using the english dub


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

> *Compared to Beerus, God of Destruction, how strong is [Super Saiyan] God?*
> I suppose if Beerus’ strength is a 10, [Super Saiyan] God would be right about 6. Only, Saiyans rapidly increase in strength as they fight against strong opponents, so the longer they fought, the more that gap would shrink, and it might even be possible for them to eventually turn the tables. Incidentally, I guess Whis would be about a 15.


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## B Rabbit (Jun 29, 2015)

I remember when the movie first came out and CD and GM were posting translations of Beerus being a Solar System destroyer. Not Galaxy.


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## Freddy Mercury (Jun 29, 2015)

And the word galaxy is where in that statement...?


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Reznor said:


> I didn't think OBD gave Beerus the benefit of that.
> 
> If they did, then yeah. Beerus stomps.



It's a miracle if the OBD does anything nice for DB or any series not in their favorite bin.


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Freddie Mercury said:


> And the word galaxy is where in that statement...?



It's a power scaling. Toriyama called Goku's SSG power a 6 and Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15. So multiplying destructive capability seen by Goku by 6 you see what he demonstrated in BoG. If Beerus is power level rated 10 capable of this in gag mode:



in serious mode he could no doubt level shit on large scale.

@B Rabbit

My bad got the whole shit Broly hype mixed up with Beerus.


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## Hachibi (Jun 29, 2015)

I see nothing about a Galaxy.

This is basically "Broly destroying a galaxy" shit.


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## Imperator100 (Jun 29, 2015)

Beerus is neither galactic nor FTL. While DBGT doesn't have feats on that level, it does have scaling to DBZ Anime which does. So overall, no, Beerus gets destroyed in GT.


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## Hachibi (Jun 29, 2015)

Bender said:


> It's a power scaling. Toriyama called Goku's SSG power a 6 and Beerus a 10 and Whis a 15. So multiplying destructive capability seen by Goku by 6 you see what he demonstrated in BoG. If Beerus is power level rated 10 capable of this in gag mode:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Great and all, but a galaxy is *far* larger than that. It is constitued of billions of planets and stars after all.


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> I see nothing about a Galaxy.
> 
> This is basically "Broly destroying a galaxy" shit.



Oi chief, I just said posts above i got "galaxy buster" mixed up with Broly.   Beerus is more capable of casually solar system busting.


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Beerus is neither galactic nor FTL. While DBGT doesn't have feats on that level, it does have scaling to DBZ Anime which does. So overall, no, Beerus gets destroyed in GT.



IIRC Goku had to use IT to keep up with Beerus in their final battle after he lost SSG form. That move FTL laden I remember right.


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## Hachibi (Jun 29, 2015)

Bender said:


> Oi chief, I just said posts above i got "galaxy buster" mixed up with Broly.   Beerus is more capable of casually solar system busting.



Fun Fact is that Broly isn't one either


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## Imperator100 (Jun 29, 2015)

Bender said:


> Oi chief, I just said posts above i got "galaxy buster" mixed up with Broly.   Beerus is more capable of casually solar system busting.



I'm not sure where you are getting casually from. Either way, Anime Buu could destroy the largest stars of a galaxy which would require over a hundred Foe of energy (Solar System Level stats at 5.709 Foe) yet in GT Kid Goku fought General Rildo, on the same level as Buu, in civilian form.

Beerus is vastly outclassed, particullarly speedwise.



> IIRC Goku had to use IT to keep up with Beerus in their final battle after he lost SSG form. That move FTL laden I remember right.


Shukan Ido (Instant Transmission) is an instanteous teleportation move. It being faster then Beerus tells me nothing about how fast Beerus is.


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## Hachibi (Jun 29, 2015)

Frieza with one year of training can compete with GT imo


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Fun Fact is that Broly isn't one either



OMFG really!?!? 

I was speaking of hype with Broly. It's shit that's been debunked. Beerus I aint see any debunking on him being FTL nor being casual solar system buster if 70% of his power him dicking around he can casually rip apart worlds.




> Shukan Ido (Instant Transmission) is an instanteous teleportation move.



IT isn't faster than Beerus. Beerus is faster than IT.



> Either way, Anime Buu could destroy the largest stars of a galaxy which would require over a hundred Foe of energy (Solar System Level stats at 5.709 Foe) yet in GT Kid Goku fought General Rildo, on the same level as Buu, in civilian form.



Okay what? 

When where? Also what largest star of the galaxy? 

This makes no sense whatsoever buddy. 

Also General Rildo is a schmuck..


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## Imperator100 (Jun 29, 2015)

> IT isn't faster than Beerus. Beerus is faster than IT.


What, give citation of this. In the Goku vs Beerus fight Goku just teleported around Beerus and Beerus was having trouble tracking him. Not once did Beerus move to a distance faster then Goku did with Shukan Ido.




> Okay what?
> 
> When where? Also what largest star of the galaxy?


In the Anime Buu destroyed a galaxy. If you want I can look for a video of it.

One of the largest stars in the galaxy is W26. If you put it's diameter into the planetary paremeter calculator and downplay it with just Earth's gravity (so the actual result should be even higher) it gives you 126.8 Foe



> This makes no sense whatsoever buddy.


How so?



> Also General Rildo is a schmuck.


A schmuck that is stronger then Buu.


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## Reznor (Jun 29, 2015)

You have to interpret Rildo > Buu as Rildo > Fat Buu. You can't scale him to Buuhan just because.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2015)

I put Rildo above Super Buu at minimum due to Base Goku's pocket dimension wrecking feat


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## Imperator100 (Jun 29, 2015)

Reznor said:


> You have to interpret Rildo > Buu as Rildo > Fat Buu. You can't scale him to Buuhan just because.



I meant Fat Buu. It was Fat Buu IIRC that did the feat.


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## Fang (Jun 29, 2015)

Only actual statements regarding Beerus:

- he is the God of Destruction
- Whis is stronger then him
- Whis confirmed Beerus is a star system buster 

We never had a single statement in the movie or supplemental material that Beerus is a galaxy buster.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2015)

Fang said:


> Only actual statements regarding Beerus:
> 
> - he is the God of Destruction
> - Whis is stronger then him
> ...



there's also Whis saying Beerus destroyed two suns before in Revival of F


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## KaiserWombat (Jun 29, 2015)

So, CD

Is there any need for me to get involved in this absolute hoot of a thread at any stage?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 29, 2015)

KaiserWombat said:


> So, CD
> 
> Is there any need for me to get involved in this absolute hoot of a thread at any stage?



I honestly think I've said everything you would've posted


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## The Runner (Jun 29, 2015)

If it weren't for the speed difference, Beerus might've won.


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## Bender (Jun 29, 2015)

Reznor said:


> You have to interpret Rildo > Buu as Rildo > Fat Buu. You can't scale him to Buuhan just because.



IIRC GT Goku called Rildo strong as Buu even though he was a kid. 

Of course Rildo is going to be considered a challenge considering Goku is a kid. Also Goku's usage of SSJ3 is weaksauce compared to how Gotenks used it. The speed he had is a joke even when you compare it to Gotenks. 

Unless GT Goku shows speed likened to his SSG form than he doesn't amount to shit against Beerus. 

EDIT:

Don't put so much hype into Goku blowing up a dimension. Gotenks bust himself and Piccolo out of a dimension in Z.

Also Whis said that pissed off Beerus can destroy the solar system. In the movie taiyou-kei translates pretty directly into "solar system": taiyou=sun/solar, and kei=system.


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## King Kakarot (Jun 29, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> there's also Whis saying Beerus destroyed two suns before in Revival of F



this is actually incorrect fan translation Whis said multiple suns


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## Iwandesu (Jun 29, 2015)

brazilian dub also says 2 suns if anything (not like a dub confirms much ,but hey)
where you saw that the original is multiple suns ?


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## King Kakarot (Jun 29, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> brazilian dub also says 2 suns if anything (not like a dub confirms much ,but hey)
> where you saw that the original is multiple suns ?





> He sneezes, and sends an energy ball hurtling towards a nearby planet, which explodes. Whis complains about the time that he had to fix Beerus? destruction of several nearby suns.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 30, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I put Rildo above Super Buu at minimum due to Base Goku's pocket dimension wrecking feat


GT follows anime Z's logic aka Kid Boo > Super Boo because of added statements saying Kid Boo is stronger and SSJ3 Goku doing better than Gohan vs Bootenks. And since GT Oob should be scaleable to Kid Boo, General Rildo has to be > Kid Boo > Super Boo > Fat Boo.


Imperator100 said:


> I meant Fat Buu. It was Fat Buu IIRC that did the feat.



it was Kid Boo


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> SSJ3 Goku doing better than Gohan vs Bootenks



nah, Goku did only about as well as Gohan, not better


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## Bender (Jun 30, 2015)

xmysticgohanx said:


> GT follows anime Z's logic aka Kid Boo > Super Boo because of added statements saying Kid Boo is stronger and SSJ3 Goku doing better than Gohan vs Bootenks.



Z anime aint even remotely imply that shit. In Z they even pointed out that Kid Buu weaker than Super Buu.


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## Expelsword (Jun 30, 2015)

Bender said:


> Z anime aint even remotely imply that shit. In Z they even pointed out that Kid Buu weaker than Super Buu.



Kid Buu is more dangerous, but he is not stronger.


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## Hamaru (Jun 30, 2015)

Does anyone even know how much stronger the god form makes Goku? That is one of the most important things about this thread.


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## Bender (Jun 30, 2015)

Expelsword said:


> Kid Buu is more dangerous, but he is not stronger.



Exactly. 

Super Buu only went "DESTROY EARTH! DESTROY!" after no one was strong enough to challenge him. 

After Super Buu lost his form due to losing his link to Majin Buu and Kid Buu was born the dude immediately blew up the Earth..


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## Fang (Jun 30, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> nah, Goku did only about as well as Gohan, not better



Hell even though Kid Buu and Super Saiyan 3 Goku were about even in power. Buu still held the advantage of being inexhaustible/no issue with stamina when fighting full out while Goku couldn't hold his strongest form for more then a few minutes and both Vegeta and Mister Buu had to intervene so he could go round 2 with Buu.

I'd argue that Gohan's zenkai power up after every heal from Dende when fighting Supper Buu (Gotenks) was actually closing the gap.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2015)

Buutenks said Gohan wasn't any stronger after the healing though 

but yeah, Toei might portray SSJ3 Goku as about equal to Ultimate Gohan in power during the Buu Saga, but Gohan has vastly more stamina


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## Fang (Jun 30, 2015)

Wait

When was SSJ3 Goku ever equal to Ultimate Gohan? Or is this purely from movie logic? Since there is all of one time that Super Saiyan 3 Goku was superior and that was the Hildegren movie.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2015)

Fang said:


> Wait
> 
> When was SSJ3 Goku ever equal to Ultimate Gohan? Or is this purely from movie logic? Since there is all of one time that Super Saiyan 3 Goku was superior and that was the Hildegren movie.



Goku's short filler fight against Buutenks 

Goku managed to get into a super speed brawl with him, albeit on the losing end, but the fact that he managed to do that at all instead of getting completely done in the moment Buutenks started to use his speed says a lot


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## Fang (Jun 30, 2015)

How was that any different from Ultimate Gohan vs Buutenks?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jun 30, 2015)

it isn't, which is why I said Toei SSJ3 Goku during the Buu Saga is only about equal to Ultimate Gohan


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## King Kakarot (Jun 30, 2015)

Hamaru said:


> Does anyone even know how much stronger the god form makes Goku? That is one of the most important things about this thread.



more than billions of times at the very least imo

Goku said he couldn't get to this world alone


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## KaiserWombat (Jun 30, 2015)

The Goku scruffle would mean nothing on its own for establishing Goku's position on the hierarchy, normally

Except that the previous episode was basically a 20 minute elegy to Gohan's hype and portrayal as the top dog while he just got *fucked over* by Buutenks at every possible stage of the fight: he legitimately does not land a single punch or kick on the Majin the entire episode, IIRC, and _maybe_ one ki blast (that Buutenks laughs off), while being ass-beaten the whole time.

This was while both Buutenks and Gohan explicitly state that they've powered up to their respective peaks of strength, with zero indication that either powered down voluntarily afterwards (until Gohan got wrecked/Fusion Dance timer expired).

Goku not only kept up with a serious Buutenks in speed, his ki blast spam was maybe even _slightly_ more effective than anything Gohan succeeded in pulling off against a full power Buutenks. Useless in the end, by all means, but managing to actually blast a hole in Buutenks' torso without relying on a gimmicked attack like Kienzan I think trumps Gohan's efforts.

TOEI made it pretty crystal clear from a feats standpoint that Goku and Gohan at their strongest at that stage of the series are at least peers to one another, from where I'm sitting.


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## Hamaru (Jun 30, 2015)

What about Goku's Zenkai boost after the fight though? Even if we say SSJ3 Goku and Ultimate Gohan were equal at the moments they fought Buutenks, the amount of fighting Goku did by the end of the saga trumps Gohan's and would give a larger boost in the end.


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

SSJ4 Goku is 12x stronger than SSJ3 Goku, and Beerus with one light chop knocked him out, pretty sure Beerus>SSJ4 Goku so he wins by this scaling.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 2, 2015)

SSJ3 GT Goku is lightyears beyond SSJ3 BotG Goku


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## ShadoLord (Jul 2, 2015)

No he is not lightyears beyond, GT Goku couldn't even maintain his SSJ3 form for too long.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 2, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> No he is not lightyears beyond, GT Goku couldn't even maintain his SSJ3 form for too long.



It is stupidly above because even fucking base gt goku has ssj3 level feats (aka destroying a pocket dimension)


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 2, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> I might as well say Syn Shenron is literally hundreds of times stronger than Vegeto
> 
> how?
> 
> ...





Crimson Dragoon said:


> hell, I can argue with complete sincerity that SSJ Goku as of the Super 17 Saga surpasses Super Vegetto





Crimson Dragoon said:


> anyway, since Super Baby Vegeta 1 surpasses Vegetto, and Uub after merging with Fat Buu forced SBV 2 to exert actual effort in their beam clash, this should mean SBV 2 > Super Uub > SBV 1 > Super Vegetto
> 
> then the Super 17 Saga arrives, with Uub's kick to Super 17's back being no-sold while SSJ Goku's punch sent him flying hundreds of miles away



so yeah, lightyears beyond 

it's 2015 in the OBD, people really should know better by now when it comes to GT's hilariously inflated power levels


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 2, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> It is stupidly above because even fucking base gt goku has ssj3 level feats (aka destroying a pocket dimension)



blowing up a pocket dimension is completely unquantifiable. 
But he's far , far , far superior to Buu saga SSJ3 (hundreds of times likely)


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 2, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> blowing up a pocket dimension is completely unquantifiable.



in DB terms, that sort of thing can be ballparked to SSJ3 level+ since it required SSJ3 Gotenks tier power to punch a hole in spacetime


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 2, 2015)

Thats true , its been a long time since i've seen that GT episode though , did he literally bust it or just escape it?


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## Yami Munesanzun (Jul 2, 2015)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> in DB terms, that sort of thing can be ballparked to SSJ3 level+ since it required SSJ3 Gotenks tier power to punch a hole in spacetime



wasn't it technically SSJ3 Gotenks + Piccolo? 

or was that just in Buu's Fury...


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 2, 2015)

that was just in Boo's Fury


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Jul 3, 2015)

So what did SSJ4 Goku do that was impressive that isn't based on dubious powerscaling?


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## Reznor (Jul 3, 2015)

TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> So what did SSJ4 Goku do that was impressive that isn't based on dubious powerscaling?



You aren't going to get anything non-dubious for SSJ4 Goku, since he's GT only.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 3, 2015)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> Thats true , its been a long time since i've seen that GT episode though , did he literally bust it or just escape it?



it seems like the explosion from his kamehameha covered the entire pocket dimension and after that, Goku was somewhere else 

either way, he did make some spacetime crack, which is SSJ3 tier



TheSweetFleshofDeath said:


> So what did SSJ4 Goku do that was impressive that isn't based on dubious powerscaling?



>dubious
>when it's actually mostly straightforward like the rest of DB

lol

again, it's 2015, GT powerscaling should be really obvious by now


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## TheSweetFleshofDeath (Jul 3, 2015)

> >dubious
> >when it's actually mostly straightforward like the rest of DB
> 
> lol
> ...



Well, I understand what you're saying.  It's just that I thought the OBD didn't accept powerscaling claims without hard feats.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 3, 2015)

GT's the same kind of shit as the previous DB series with the dumb power creep 

X being stronger than Y because Z who fought Y previously felt X's ki to be stronger has always been valid 

what's not valid is X is a solar system buster because Y who's much weaker is a planet buster

so basically same old shit we always do


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## Hamaru (Jul 4, 2015)

Goku blowing up a pocket dimension makes his base form as strong or stronger than Gotenks, that doesn't make his base as strong as Goku's SSJ3 mode. It all goes back to, how much stronger does god form make Goku? Then after that, how much stronger is SSjG form from god mode?


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## Iwandesu (Jul 4, 2015)

it means his base is stronger than ssj3 goku was at buu saga (as super buu also exerted himself to open even a tiny hole in the dimension and he was > ssj3 goku)
then again anime ssj3 goku is implied as >= mystic gohan
so hell if i know


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jul 4, 2015)

Goku got a stupid power boost in the S17 arc like I already said 

his base form there should far surpass his previous SSJ3 Buu Saga form

hell, at the very first ep of GT, he was fighting evenly with Uub in base, and it's pretty reasonable to think that Uub there was at least close in power to his Kid Buu incarnation


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## Imperator100 (Jul 4, 2015)

This thread has gone on alot longer then I expected it to.

Frankly going by scaling of the two seperate continuities Beerus would be beaten before the end of the DBZ Anime, let alone GT.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 4, 2015)

the current debate is about some weird composite continuity unless i'm missing something


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## Hamaru (Jul 5, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> it means his base is stronger than ssj3 goku was at buu saga (as super buu also exerted himself to open even a tiny hole in the dimension and he was > ssj3 goku)
> then again anime ssj3 goku is implied as >= mystic gohan
> so hell if i know



Super Buu was > SSJ3 Goku for a moment in time. Zenkai boosts makes him stronger. Also, SSj3 Goku in BOTG is different than the one at the end of Z or beginning of GT. He gets his full zenkai boost from the Buu saga and was training a lot. 

An example of how major zenkai boosts are for Saiyans would be Fat Buu taking most of the punishment from Kid Buu, yet in BOTG regular ssj Vegeta was able to react and block Beerus's attacks. Then went on to get hit about 6-7 times and just powered down after. Buu and Mystic Gohan got taken out with a few hits and didn't block or dodge crap. This is before Vegeta got raged and was said to be stronger than Goku.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 5, 2015)

that's not a zenkai that's just training
vegeta was a ssj2 too


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