# Who in the Akatsuki can beat Hebi Sasuke



## Matty (Aug 13, 2015)

Area: Sasuke vs Deidara
Knowledge: Full for akatsuki, none for Hebi
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC
Distance: 50 Meters

*Opponents*

Kisame
Sasori
Kakuzu
Hidan
Konan
Deidara

Can any of them beat him? Because it seems like Hebi is god tier in NBD


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## Amol (Aug 13, 2015)

Everyone bar Hidan beats him (assuming Konan has prep ).
Even Hidan can get lucky as Sasuke has no knowledge while Akatsuki has full.


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## ARGUS (Aug 13, 2015)

Only Kisame beats/shits on him 
Sasuke beats the rest


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

I'd rank them like this:

_Kisame
*Hebi Sasuke*
Deidara
Sasori
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan_

Sasuke was said to be immune to poisons thanks to Orochimaru's experimentation, and he can see chakra, which when combined with his Chidori spear and high speed, makes him an exceptionally good match for the otherwise tricky Sasori and Kakuzu. He beat Deidara. Konan and Hidan are much weaker.

There's also a strong case for Hebi Sasuke > Orochimaru, as it was said by Sasuke that Orochimaru stood no chance against Itachi, yet he believed he could take him. And from a feat standpoint, Sasuke has the speed to set up Kirin and finish Orochimaru even in the extremely resilient Hydra form.

Not sure why this makes him "god tier," as he still loses to Kisame, who is at best at the bottom of the High Kage bracket. Most people just do their best to underestimate Hebi Sasuke despite him defeating Deidara while holding back, even when Deidara had Obito set up a mine field for him.

And Deidara, if you recall, is the guy that captured Shukaku Gaara, a High Kage, in the desert in his own village. Hebi Sasuke also easily defeated the entire Sound Army and Orochimaru said his genius made himself look pitiful. So he's no joke. Definitely not Low Kage or even lower Mid Kage like many argue.


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## Bonly (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame,Sasori(depending on poison immunity), and Konan has a good decent shot at beating him imo.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 14, 2015)

No one here is beating him with Orochimaru unrestricted. Kisame and Sasori have the best chances of beating him assuming Oro doesn't jump out to protect his precious container.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame
Kakuzu
Sasori

are all stronger than him. Konan has a really good chance as well.
Deidara is as we have seen in the manga, and Hidan will lose to him.


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## Ghost (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame is the only one who can beat him.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame and Kakuzu.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame and Kakuzu beat


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## icemaster143 (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisami , kakuzu and konan.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 14, 2015)

Amol said:


> Everyone bar Hidan beats him (assuming Konan has prep ).
> Even Hidan can get lucky as Sasuke has no knowledge while Akatsuki has full.


This.

But that only applies to the sasuke kishi wrote
rather than the one the lives in people's heads.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> This.
> But that only applies to the sasuke kishi wrote
> rather than the one the lives in people's heads.



Even Deidara without Obito's assistance beats Sasuke, right? Give me a break. And Deidara's feats in capturing Gaara, nearly killing Team Gai and Team Kakashi without arms, etc. were _way_ more impressive than anything lesser Akatsuki members did.​


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## Deer Lord (Aug 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Even Deidara beats Sasuke, right? Give me a break.


Look at the OP.
in the manga deidara and sasuke both had no knowledge in thier fight. and it still ended up extreme-difficulty win for sasuke.
this time around deidara has full knowledge and sasuke has none.
this will help him edge out the win.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Even Deidara without Obito's assistance beats Sasuke, right? Give me a break. And Deidara's feats in capturing Gaara, nearly killing Team Gai and Team Kakashi without arms, etc. were _way_ more impressive than anything Kakuzu, Sasori, Hidan, or a prep-less Konan did.​



Deidara admitted that Sasori is stronger than him. Kakuzu, even without his hearts jutsu survived against Hashirama, and it took 2 teams to take him down with the benefit of knowing about Hidan's abilities beforehand. 

Konan was almost going to kill Obito even without her massive jutsu. 

Hebi Sasuke is Extremely Overrated.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> in the manga deidara and sasuke both had no knowledge in thier fight. and it still ended up extreme-difficulty win for sasuke.



In the manga, it was said Sasuke was purposefully holding back in order to get information, which is why he didn't use Manda offensively or use Kirin. And in this match, Deidara doesn't have Obito to set up a mine field to make his opponent unable to move.​


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> In the manga, it was said Sasuke was purposefully holding back in order to get information, which is why he didn't use Manda offensively or use Kirin. And in this match, Deidara doesn't have Obito to set up a mine field to make his opponent unable to move.​



How do you know he can use Kirin to begin with? The sky was clear, and he can't use Amatersu that cover an entire mountain for heat. 

People keep ignoring that Kirin needs extreme conditions as well. It's not something Sasuke call pull out of his ass whenever he wants to...


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Hussain said:


> and it took 2 teams to take him down with the benefit of knowing about Hidan's abilities beforehand.



Deidara almost killed two teams without arms, and _wasn't_ taken down by them.



Hussain said:


> Konan was almost going to kill Obito even without her massive jutsu.



You should make that BD thread if it's so close.



Hussain said:


> Deidara admitted that Sasori is stronger than him.



And Black Zetsu admitted Itachi was completely invincible.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 14, 2015)

Whats stopping deidara with intel from just dropping C3 on sasuke's face and calling it a day?
Or exploding bunshin.

or anything other than C4 which sasuke can counter by zapping himself.


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## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

1- He did not tho. 
At the end of the day no one of them got hurt or anything, and he simply fooled them. 

2- There is no point really. 
3- I don't know what are those have to do with each other tho. 
Regardless of the whole Zetsu characters being reteconned completely. Deidara here knows his abilities
and knows some of Sasori's, and yet he claimed that he is weaker. It's not the same as speaking in behalf of
all ninja and their abilities...

@Deer Lord

I always wondered why did he not use C3 at all in that fight!


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## Deer Lord (Aug 14, 2015)

Probablt because its takes alot of time to make that shit
(it is a masterpiece after all)
and he wasted the one he had on gaara.

regardless, he should have one prepped for this match.


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Can any of them beat him? Because it seems like Hebi is god tier in NBD



Saying he's god tier is an understatement, man.

At this rate, NBD Hebi Sauce effortlessly shits on Hagoromo and Kaguya simultaneously with his hands tied behind his back. Fucker's so unstoppable that even our combined brainpower couldn't comprehend his divine strength.


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## Empathy (Aug 14, 2015)

Maybe Sasori. The rest, I'd bet on Hebi Sasuke.


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## The Undying (Aug 14, 2015)

In all seriousness, if we discount Orochimaru's intervention with Yamata no Jutsu, at least half of Akatsuki destroys him.


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## Lawrence777 (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisame
Hebi Sasuke
Deidara/Sasori//Kakuzu(no particular order)
Konan
Hidan

Hebi Sasuke was more hyped than the middle batch of akatsuki imo. He's faster than all of them also.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Nagato, Itachi, Obito, Kisame are all shinobi who are stronger than him. He only beat Deidara due to an innate elemental advantage and Kakuzu would give him a great degree of difficulty as well.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 14, 2015)

IIRC Sasuke said he had another strategy ready if the elemental thing didn't work out against Deidara's clay.


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## Tarot (Aug 14, 2015)

Excluding the doujutsu trio (Pain,Itachi,Obito), I only see Kisame and Sasori beating him. Kakuzu is a 50/50, and even then I give Sasuke the edge.


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## David (Aug 14, 2015)

How does Kisame beat him?  I mean, wouldn't Kisame start with CQC, and wouldn't Hebi Sauce outspeed him and eventually Sharingan/shuriken trick + Eiso multi-stab him in CQC during their sword fight?

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Kisamehada is a force that I don't think Hebi Sasuke can compete with, Kisame wins by healing his injuries and outlasting Sauce/Oro.


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## David (Aug 14, 2015)

I've been wondering for a while, by the way:

Do most people here believe that Kisame can create a moving ocean with his own Bijuu-tier chakra, or is the general consensus that he needs an extra source like the Hachibi's?

I would think that he could do it by himself.  It'd be nearly pointless to have a technique that could only be used once the user absorbs an incredibly rare type of chakra.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

He was able to do it with less than 30% of his chakra, so I don't see him having an issue while doing it with his real body.


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## David (Aug 14, 2015)

I meant the dome thing, sorry (edited my post Strategos-style).


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 14, 2015)

Strategos is probably so proud 

Yeah, I think he can manage it on his, he was said to have the most chakra, more than Nagato, so that means he'd easily be able to replicate it. He may be weak all around but his relationship with Samehada is what makes him hard as fuck to beat. Though MS Sasuke would be able to take him down no problem, for Hebi to make things work, he'd need to have many things go his way. I just don't see that happening though.

Though, Kirin > anything Kisame's got though but setting that up underwater is going to be difficult regardless. He could theoretically use his raiton element to make things uncomfortable for Kisame, but that would only slow him down not stop him.

Kisame's just too much of a power house, even Bee couldn't win underground and Bee > Hebi Sauce.


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## Rocky (Aug 14, 2015)

Dying, jobbing Itachi took the W against Hebi Sasuke (even with Orochimaru's assistance late game), so it's pretty clear that Sasuke doesn't beat him, Obito, or Nagato. Sasuke barley managed to beat Deidara, and Sasori's supposed to be stronger than Deidara, so Sasuke might not win that. Sasuke has a favorable match-up against Sasori though (imo), soooo...it can go either way, I guess?

An Orochimaru-Sasuke fusion isn't the type of fighter Kisame excels at fighting, so I doubt Sasuke'd lose there. Everyone else is clearly weaker than Deidara except maybe Kakuzu, who loses definitively to Kirin anyway.

Sasuke's not God Tier, but he's got to be _at least_ Mid Kage for beating Deidara. Personally, I wouldn't say he's High Kage; you can't get played by deathbed Itachi and still be healthy/Edo Itachi's peer.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

David said:


> I meant the dome thing, sorry (edited my post Strategos-style).


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## Sadgoob (Aug 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke's not God Tier, but he's got to be _at least_ Mid Kage for beating Deidara.



He beat Deidara _while holding back_. It's an important distinction, and one the author made clear as to why Sasuke could be so close to losing to Deidara and yet still decide to challenge Itachi.​


Rocky said:


> Personally, I wouldn't say he's High Kage; you can't get played by deathbed Itachi and still be healthy/Edo Itachi's peer.



I feel like you're implying here that healthy Itachi is at the bottom of the High Kage tier. Yet sick Itachi, at the end of his fight while completely blind and barely alive, slaughtered Orochimaru.​


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## Amol (Aug 15, 2015)

Sasuke 'defeated' Deidara with huge PIS.
Out of chakra people don't summon boss sized Snake then put it Genjutsu and then reverse summon in it in fraction of second.
Even suspension of disbelief has it's limit.
For example Deidara who fought Gaara would beat Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 15, 2015)

An OOC Deidara could literally solo a village before they even knew what was going on. But as for Sasuke defeating him, I thought his advantages were real enough for it happen except the whole Manda thing, that was the plot shield at it's finest.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 15, 2015)

Amol said:


> Sasuke 'defeated' Deidara with huge PIS.
> Out of chakra people don't summon boss sized Snake then put it Genjutsu and then reverse summon in it in fraction of second.



PIS is plot-induced-stupidity.

It was PIA. Plot-induced-awesomeness.

Maybe Sasuke pre-genjutsu'd Manda to use against Itachi.

(We've seen Obito keep genjutsu's people in Kamui-land for use.)

And summoned Manda's mouth around him.

(We've seen Jiriaya summon a toad stomach around him.)

Whether you want to yell PIA or not, it happened. It's a feat he can use.


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## Ersa (Aug 15, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke beats all of the Akatsuki bar Nagato, Obito, Itachi and Kisame. He's immune to most poisons and combine that with his versatile arsenal he has the tools to handle Sasori.


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2015)

Based on portrayal he looses to all but konan and deidara
However with what Kishi displayed he should beat all but Kisame

Sasori treatment was poor as was kakuzu

Still recall for all the hype sasjke is getting it took itachi trying not to kill him for him to compete with itachi 

Itachi holding back against these guys won't be as easy for itachi


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## Deer Lord (Aug 15, 2015)

Scan please for hebi sauce posion  immunity?


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## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2015)

Why didn't Kishi care for sasori 
Imagine 100 human puppets 
That would put sasori well above Hebi and Kisame


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## David (Aug 15, 2015)

*(8)*

@Deer

He's not immune to all poisons though, as shown by his susceptibility to Oro's white snake gas.  Seeing how unique Sasori's poison was considered in-manga, I would personally wager that Sauce probably doesn't have immunity to it.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 15, 2015)

Sasori was going to take on orochimaru anyway
it wouldn't make sense for him to make a posion useless against him.


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## Amol (Aug 15, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> An OOC Deidara could literally solo a village before they even knew what was going on. But as for Sasuke defeating him, I thought *his advantages were real enough for it happen* except the whole Manda thing, that was the plot shield at it's finest.


That is the exactly my point.
Sasuke had advantages in fight.
It was like Luffy vs Enel . Just because Luffy defeated him didn't mean that Enel was weaker than him.
My problem lies when people use ABC logic.
Sasuke 'defeated' Deidara means _obviously_ he also beats people weaker than Deidara.
And yeah whole I-am-out-of-chakra-but-hey-look-i-can-still-summon-boss-sized-summon was plot shield at finest.


Strategoob said:


> PIS is plot-induced-stupidity.
> 
> It was PIA. Plot-induced-awesomeness.
> 
> ...


You are just arguing semantics now and writing fanfictions.
And from all my experience of Battledome I would tell you, feats only approach leads to nowhere.
We have given ability to think. When you see an asspull you call it asspull.
If you are going to take this attitude about feats then you have to also agree with the fact that Sakura is stronger than Itachi. 
Do you agree to that?
Because otherwise you are a hypocrite .
My stand still remains : A huge plot shield helped Sasuke in his supposed victory over Deidara .


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## Knyght (Aug 15, 2015)

Deidara's assumed Sasuke was out of chakra. He was wrong.



David said:


> *(8)*
> 
> @Deer
> 
> He's not immune to all poisons though, as shown by his susceptibility to Oro's white snake gas.  Seeing how unique Sasori's poison was considered in-manga, I would personally wager that Sauce probably doesn't have immunity to it.



To be fair, Orochimaru wouldn't want to make Sasuke immune to his personal poison in the first place.


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## Ghost (Aug 15, 2015)

Amol said:


> Out of chakra people don't summon boss sized Snake then put it Genjutsu and then reverse summon in it in fraction of second.


Good thing Sasuke wasn't out of chakra.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 15, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Based on portrayal he looses to all but konan and deidara



No way. Sasuke easily defeated the Sound Village army without killing any of them or being hurt or fatigued himself, which puts him above Sasori's greatest piece of hype (defeating a village.)

And in that same instance of portrayal, Orochimaru said his own genius was completely pitiful before Sasuke's genius. And Orochimaru didn't even know about the raiton variants or Kirin.

I remember being on the forums (maybe not these ones) when that chapter came out and people were _pissed_ because it was too over the top at that point in the manga.

It was an instance of portrayal _beyond_ anything we'd seen on panel, only heard about (Sasori and Orochimaru being said to be able to take on smaller villages by themselves.)​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 15, 2015)

Amol said:


> You are just arguing semantics now and writing fanfictions.



No I'm not. I'm giving a plausible explanation for how that could have happened off panel that quickly based on other instances of shown summoning and genjutsu in the manga. 

It just suits your end to complain about how it doesn't make sense and shouldn't count.​


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## Matty (Aug 15, 2015)

@Strat it was a country not a village. I agree with @Deer. Sasori's poison was shown to be so complex that he had to use charts and ratio shit, I highly doubt that Oro gave him immunity to every poison. Would he be able to take on Hanzo without difficulty too because of poison immunity?

And yea if he was going to take on Oro, someone who was his partner for a good amount of time and who he probably knows is immune to poisons, it's not likely he's going to make a poison that is going to be resisted so easily. IMO his poison is the best in the Manga aside from maybe Hanzo


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## Sadgoob (Aug 15, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> @Strat it was a country not a village.



The two are interchangeable, as hidden villages are a country's military. It should also be obvious that Sasori/Orochimaru can't defeat any of the main five villages, only small ones like Sauce.

That is literally the most impressive hype of Orochimaru and Sasori, and Sasuke was _given it as a feat_, and then put on a much higher level than Orochimaru in terms of genius.​


matty1991 said:


> I agree with @Deer. Sasori's poison was shown to be so complex that he had to use charts and ratio shit, I highly doubt that Oro gave him immunity to every poison. Would he be able to take on Hanzo without difficulty too because of poison immunity?



Orochimaru was Sasori's partner and fought Hanzo before. If there are _any_ ninja his poison immunity/resistance process is based around, it would be them and their ingredients.​


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## The Undying (Aug 15, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Hebi Sasuke beats all of the Akatsuki bar Nagato, Obito, Itachi and Kisame.



If Sasuke had a counter for his would-be penitentiary gangbang of giant masked _Jiongu_ monsters surrounding him with enormous elemental spam from all directions as well as the means to render his Raiton abilities useless, maybe. If Sasuke had the capabilities to suggest he could beat Sasori without withstanding a single poison-releasing scratch that he most likely doesn't have immunity for, maybe.

But he doesn't, so feel free to add those two people to his list of statutory rapists as well.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 16, 2015)

*Kakuzu*

Jiongu is countered easily by Chidori Nagashi, and we saw Kakashi easily dodging the masks' ninjutsu, only taking hits when he had to defend Choji and Ino. You're overrating Kakuzu.

The only reason Kakuzu is a solid Mid Kage and not closer to being a Low Kage is because of how solid a defense Doton: Domu is for him. But that's a non-factor against Hebi Sasuke.

*Sasori*

Sasori took forever to scratch Sakura, someone that couldn't perceive Sasuke's movements at all when Sasuke wasn't even using the Curse Seal to amp his movement speed.

He can also see Sasori's weakness instantly with Sharingan chakra vision. Sasori's therefore fucked. Sasuke would need neither Kirin nor Manda here, and using either makes it an easy-win for him. 

*Hype*

Neither Kakuzu nor Sasori have feats anywhere near Deidara's own against Gaara or Team Kakashi, and Sasori's hype in "defeating a country" is inferior to Sasuke's feat against the Sound Army.

There's zero reason for people to think Hebi Sasuke is outclassed i_n any way_ by Sasori or Kakuzu. He has superior feats against a superior opponent (feat-wise) and has superior hype to both.



> *{page 044-045}
> Studied fighting skills! His power surpasses even Akatsuki. *
> 
> [Godlike speed]
> Adding up to his innate talent, *Orochimaru's strength* — "cursed seal" included — granted him a power a normal shinobi could not even dream of.



Hebi Sasuke (has Oro's power) > Orochimaru > Sasori > Kakuzu
​


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 16, 2015)

Sasuke only wins against Hidan, Deidara, and possibly Sasori. The Sharingan could see all the chakra from Sasori's one organic part and he could have the speed to pierce it.


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## Ashi (Aug 16, 2015)

knight504 said:


> Deidara's assumed Sasuke was out of chakra. He was wrong.




Well he did fall down pretty fast and his sharingan disappear so he was running low, 


Altho thinking back Naruto said he was out of chakra when summoning Gamabunta after using the Naruto 2K barrage so maybe chakra is sort of side effect of adrenaline


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 16, 2015)

^ Naruto used Kurama's chakra to summon Gamabunta there.


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## Puppetry (Aug 16, 2015)

Hebi Sasuke does exceptionally well against the bottom half of Akatsuki; he cannot beat Nagato, Obito, Itachi, and Sasori. He really can't 'beat' Deidara either; I consider them equals without external aid.

Kisame and Kakuzu both lose thanks to a lack of a truly potent finisher. Snake summons and Raiton do wonders against Suirō Sameodori, while Kakuzu's well balanced but somewhat average arsenal simply gets overwhelmed.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 16, 2015)

He has a chance against Sasori. Again, to a Sharingan or any dojutsu, his organic part is like a beacon.


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## Matty (Aug 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The two are interchangeable, as hidden villages are a country's military. It should also be obvious that Sasori/Orochimaru can't defeat any of the main five villages, only small ones like Sauce.
> 
> That is literally the most impressive hype of Orochimaru and Sasori, and Sasuke was _given it as a feat_, and then put on a much higher level than Orochimaru in terms of genius.​
> 
> ...



If his poison is so potent that barely anyone besides a kunoichi who was trained by the greatest medical ninja of all time can make an antidote for it do you think Oro is going to jut happen to stumble across a resistance? That posion is so potent that even the antidote that was made only lasted for 3 minutes before the poison overtook again, so in essence its more of a poison delay rather than an antidote.

Anyway aside from that, I don't think Sasori is stupid enough to take on Oro (or hebi who has Oro's powers as you said) with poison that Oro would have been familiar with. Sakura got lucky Sasori let Kankuro die slowly because if not they're done. And if Hebi is not resistant to that complex poison I'd imagine he's fucked if he gets tagged. But that's a big if with his speed. I see it going either way with Sasori winning more times than not


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 16, 2015)

> That posion is so potent that even the antidote that was made only lasted for 3 minutes before the poison overtook again, so in essence its more of a poison delay rather than an antidote.


That poison is pretty weak actually. Nothing close to the venom of a box jellyfish or a poison like cyanide that kills in matter of seconds.

Probable death in 3 days? That probably wouldn't even make this world's top 50 list of poisons, let alone a world of magical ninja who specialize in killing by alchemy.


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## Puppetry (Aug 16, 2015)

Clearly Kishimoto doesn't consider speed as a true measure of ninja poisons. Hanzō's kills in two days, yet it - along with Sasori's poison - has been given the greatest degree of hype of any poison in this manga.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 16, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Anyway aside from that, I don't think Sasori is stupid enough to take on Oro (or hebi who has Oro's powers as you said) with poison that Oro would have been familiar with.



You're not really thinking here about how much easier it would be for Orochimaru to get a sample of the poison Sasori uses than it would be for Sasori to apply a new poison to Iron Sand and the thousands of weapons his puppets use.

It's also unlikely that the elements used for prolonged paralysis are radically different from one another from one concoction to another. They likely have the same active ingredient that Orochimaru built up an immunity towards (spider venom, plant toxin, etc.)

If Sasori supporters want to throw Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke's prepared trait of poison immunity out the window in the Battledome against the only ninja it's useful against, then go ahead. But I think that most people that don't go in supporting Sasori would do that.​


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## Ghost (Aug 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If Sasori supporters want to throw Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke's prepared trait of poison immunity out the window in the Battledome against the only ninja it's useful against, then go ahead. But I think that most people that don't go in supporting Sasori would do that.



More like Sasuke down players rather than Sasori supporters.


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## LostSelf (Aug 16, 2015)

We actually are not even sure if Orochimaru's poison resistant is enough to take Sasori's or even if Sasuke got that. Why would Oro train Sasuke to resist poison when Sasuke's main goal was Itachi, who doesn't use them?


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## Knyght (Aug 16, 2015)

Sasuke was Orochimaru's future vessel. The training was for his own sake, not Sasuke's, and it serves his interests to give him that immunity.


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## Matty (Aug 16, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're not really thinking here about how much easier it would be for Orochimaru to get a sample of the poison Sasori uses than it would be for Sasori to apply a new poison to Iron Sand and the thousands of weapons his puppets use.
> 
> It's also unlikely that the elements used for prolonged paralysis are radically different from one another from one concoction to another. They likely have the same active ingredient that Orochimaru built up an immunity towards (spider venom, plant toxin, etc.)
> 
> If Sasori supporters want to throw Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke's prepared trait of poison immunity out the window in the Battledome against the only ninja it's useful against, then go ahead. But I think that most people that don't go in supporting Sasori would do that.​



Everyone knows I am a Sasori guy, I just don't think that Sasuke is immune to either Sasori or Hanzo's poison. They just seemed to me to be the unique style poisons. 

@DaViz I'll just second what Puppetry said, time doesn't matter, the fact that you're paralyzed is as good as death as he could've just killed Kankuro immediately if it weren't for plot.


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## LostSelf (Aug 16, 2015)

knight504 said:


> Sasuke was Orochimaru's future vessel. The training was for his own sake, not Sasuke's, and it serves his interests to give him that immunity.



That says a lot, however, we don't know if Orochimaru was going to be resistant to poison or not either way, as he would still be able to use his snake form (as much as i suppose). Also, that doesn't mean Orochimaru is completely inmune to Sasori's poison as to assume it won't affect him.


----------



## Deer Lord (Aug 16, 2015)

Are you guys seriously still debating over a non-existant feat?



New limits to hebisauce wank are being broken every day.


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## Matty (Aug 16, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Are you guys seriously still debating over a non-existant feat?
> 
> 
> 
> New limits to hebisauce wank are being broken every day.



Hebi has been wanked more and more it feels like lately.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Beating a meh Mid Kage = "new level of wanking." 

You guys need to stop bitching.


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## Matty (Aug 17, 2015)

Now Deidara is the highest Low Kage there is or a lower mid Kage Based ONLY on C4. C0 ain't shit because he dies with it, as powerful as it is. And let's not forget Sharingan advantage of seeing C4 particles and also Raiton flow advantage, because if not Deidara smokes his ass. There's no way you can tell me Deidara isn't better than Hebi on a logical level. People refer to canon sometimes TOO literally without thinking of circumstances. IMO Hebi is Low Kage


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Deidara is so much better than Kakuzu and Sasori in terms of feats that it's not even funny. 

He captured Shukaku Gaara in Sunagakure, and it took a giant instant Kamui to keep him from killing Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Neji, Lee, and more. Sasori and Kakuzu would be insta-raped.

The _only_ thing that puts Sasori on competitive ground with Deidara is a dubious statement Deidara made in order to get Kakashi to go support Sakura and Chiyo so he could capture Naruto.

Moreover, Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara _while holding back_, so even if Deidara was a Low Kage that captured Shukaku Gaara, then that'd still put Sasuke in the Mid Kage tier.​


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## Deer Lord (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Beating a meh Mid Kage = "new level of wanking."
> 
> You guys need to stop bitching.


The only reason you wank hebisauce is because its an indirect way of wanking itachi


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## Bonly (Aug 17, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> There's no way you can tell me Deidara isn't better than Hebi on a logical level.



Well actually yeah one can though that depends on how one ranks a character level and what not. 

Deidara doesn't have as good a defense as Sasuke does. Sasuke has snakes which he can use as meat shields which has shown to keep Sasuke completely safe from this explosion and Sasuke can bring them out fast as you can see here Deidara had his bombs above Sasuke a few meters before blowing them up and yet Sasuke could still managed to summon a big enough snake to completely wrap around him and keep him safe. Then there's the CS lvl once which boost his durability along with his other stats along with his CS lvl 2 which allowed Sasuke to tank this explosion while his defense in his CS2 state also allowed him to take this explosion while only losing a wing.

Sasuke is also more versatile then Deidara as well. Sasuke has his sword which can have Chidori ran through it to help get through defense(it could cut through a metal kunai), he has  Chidori Eisō which can extend to five meters as well as branch out which gives him a good mid ranged attack, he has Chidori Nagashi which works as both offense and defense. He has Katons, genjutsu, snakes which can be used as meat shields or he can use them to poison people with a bite or he can use them for extra reach and he has access to Manda, he has his Shurikens skills and smarts which he used to pin down Deidara and stabbed Itachi. Sasuke still has access to Kirin and if Sasuke ends up running out of chakra as well as having Orochi help Sasuke's healing powers there's always a chance that Orochi could/would come out upon is gonna be a game changer against most(if not all) people around his generally level. Ect.

Sasuke is either even or above Deidara is pretty much almost everything bar pure firepower though pure firepower doesn't outright make one stronger then the other every time so with Sasuke being generally better then Deidara I'd say there's a decent case to be made about Hebi Sasuke being logically stronger. 



> IMO Hebi is Low Kage



That's a bit too low imo.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> The only reason you wank hebisauce is because its an indirect way of wanking itachi



Believe it or not, I started out a Hebi Sasuke fan that transitioned to Itachi.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Believe it or not, I started out a Hebi Sasuke fan that transitioned to Itachi.


I can believe it, it's arguebly sasuke's coolest incarnation
just before he became bat-shit crazy.


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 17, 2015)

Deidara > Kakuzu = Hebi Sasuke > Sasori

IMO 

Deidara vs. Hebi Sasuke was PnJ at it's finest, to the point of actually using substitution jutsu, which may have been the last time we've seen it in the series.

Wired Shuriken beating C2 Dragon and a dude with a telescope in his eye (kilometers of zoom action) not seeing it, reacting to C1 birds exploding by emitting White Snake Defense quickly enough to shield his body- without knowing the clay actually explodes before it did, countering C4 by electrocuting himself with lightning and somehow not immediately dying as a result (oh he's a raiton user, so he can now survive full body electrocution via A-rank Chidori) etc. 

Deidara needed to die, so the author wrote it that way. If not, he'd of wound up destroying a village or something.

The same thing can be argued for his performance as an Edo, needed to be put down before he simply decided to spam C0.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 17, 2015)

Hebi is a solid mid-kage level performer, he was able to take on Deidara which solidifies his position but likewise, he has the tools necessary to fight against all of the mid-tier Akatsuki (Kisame, Kakuzu and Sasori). Whether he'd win or not isn't the answer, he beats 2 out 4 and ties with another, so I can see him being in that running.


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## Puppetry (Aug 17, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're not really thinking here about how much easier it would be for Orochimaru to get a sample of the poison Sasori uses than it would be for Sasori to apply a new poison to Iron Sand and the thousands of weapons his puppets use.​



Sasori's _hobby_ is remodeling his puppet collection. He devoted his entire life to improving his puppets. Periodically developing and replacing poisons is just par for the course. Besides, that's nowhere near as involved as building and altering traps and other mechanisms.

And forgive me if I doubt Kabuto's spying abilities when he didn't know what Sasori looked like and charged faux Hiruko with a chakra scalpel.



> It's also unlikely that the elements used for prolonged paralysis are radically different from one another from one concoction to another.



Because?



> If Sasori supporters want to throw Orochimaru and Hebi Sasuke's prepared trait of poison immunity out the window in the Battledome against the only ninja it's useful against—



Correction: The only _powerful_ shinobi it _may_ have been useful against. There are scores of unnamed or mediocre shinobi who are too weak to be pitted against Orochimaru or Hebi Sasuke directly, yet still could have posed a threat to both of them thanks to poison. From a narrative perspective, that justifies Orochimaru's _supposed_ desire for poison resistance. 

Helpfulness in the Battledome has no bearing on the limits of their resistance.


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## Matty (Aug 17, 2015)

Yea you know what, that is my bad. Thinking back on it I probably would put Hebi at the absolute border of Low/Mid Kage. I was never trying to downplay him, I just hate how people wank him. I am a firm believer that Sasori gets downplayed more than most characters in the verse. Whether it's because he's one of my favorites or not, I just feel like people tend to underestimate his arsenal.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 17, 2015)

Yeah, well, you have to consider that in their main fights that Hebi Sasuke beat Deidara (while holding back) even though Obito helped Deidara setup the field. Sasori lost to Sakura and Chiyo. 

Sakura and Chiyo had never done shit. They had no impressive feats beforehand, and Chiyo's best hype was in taking down a castle. Which is basically a bunch of fodder (Sasuke beat thousands.) 

Deidara had just come off capturing the most powerful character ever shown at the time (Shukaku Gaara in the desert) and nearly killing all of Team Gai and Team Kakashi with a single clone feint.

Really, the fact that your estimate of Sasori and Sasuke are so different is nothing short of mindboggling if you look at their actual accomplishments in the manga.​


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## Matty (Aug 18, 2015)

You forget he faces someone who was literally his worst opponent. Someone who know how to counter puppet jutsu, and an anomoly of a medical nin that just happened to make an antidote. We all know he is tiers above Chiyo and Beginning of Ship Sakura.

Hebi Sasuke is just not better than Sasori man, I don''t know what else to say. Feats or whatever, Sasori took down a nation, was going to take on Orochimaru confidently and was also partnered with him. He had said he had killed thousands and thousands of people and had worldwide fame by the age of 15 in the third war. On top of that he defeated the strongest Suna Kage of all time with not much of an arsenal at that point and in general Hebi Sauce has nothing compared to the complexity of Sasori.

MS Sauce, yea he's better than Sasori but Hebi Sasuke is not


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 18, 2015)

Well, to be honest, Hebi Sasuke beat a guy (Deidara) who kidnapped the strongest Kazekage by feats (Gaara) with limited supplies (low on clay, couldn't use C4 [would've killed Gaara]) while in his village. 

Prior to being Hebi, he defeated a shinobi force of 1,000 with only his blade, while holding back (didn't kill any of them), in a single battle. So the killing of thousands of random people (which I've never heard of Sasori doing that) over years not holding back and not limited to using only a blade doesn't really give him an advantage over this version of Sasuke. 

Feat-wise, I see nothing that warrants Sasori being superior to Hebi Sasuke either.

Kirin, Dragon Katons, CS2, Sasuke's speed, 3T Genjutsu, WSD, Oral Rebith, Binding Snake Glare Spell, Shadow Snake Hands & Extension Chidori suggest to me that Hebi Sasuke is superior by feats.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> You forget he faces someone who was literally his worst opponent. Someone who know how to counter puppet jutsu, and an anomoly of a medical nin that just happened to make an antidote. We all know he is tiers above Chiyo and Beginning of Ship Sakura.



And Deidara had Sharingan immunity. So what? Chiyo's still barely Low Kage.



matty1991 said:


> Sasori took down a nation



Sasuke took down a nation's army too, easily.



matty1991 said:


> was going to take on Orochimaru confidently



Sasuke beat him with genjutsu and then absorbed Orochimaru's power.



matty1991 said:


> He had said he had killed thousands and thousands of people and had worldwide fame by the age of 15 in the third war.



Sasuke was in the bingo book and a top priority for Konoha's ROOT. 



matty1991 said:


> On top of that he defeated the strongest Suna Kage of all time



Sasuke "defeated" Orochimaru as far as the world was concerned.



matty1991 said:


> with not much of an arsenal at that point and in general Hebi Sauce has nothing compared to the complexity of Sasori.



Manda
Other Snake Summons
Sharingan Genjutsu (4.5)
Sharingan Perception
Kirin
Raiton Katana
Chidori Eiso
Chidori Nagashi
Vastly Superior Speed
Vastly Superior Durability
CS2 Flight
Oral Rebirth
Poison Immunity

Sasuke is superior in nearly every way. It's harder to find the few things Sasori has the edge in over Sasuke. Manda alone would basically wreck Sasori and all his puppets, with Satetsu being the only answer to the boss summon.


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## Matty (Aug 18, 2015)

And Satetsu is definitely a good enough offense to destroy Manda. I'm not Saying Sasori wins because I think Hebi is a bad matchup. I see it 50/50, But Sasori is also Smarter than hebi and with no knowledge he's getting tagged from Sasori. Sasuke is not immune to an extremely complex poison noone has ever know about.


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## Puppetry (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Chiyo's still barely Low Kage.



Low Kage do not clash with Hanzō numerous times and live to tell the tale. Nor do they seal the Shukaku by themselves. Chiyo has done both. 



> Sasuke took down a nation's army too, easily.



No he didn't. He defeated a large swath of Otokagure's henchman in a vast field. Just the immense advantage a country gains by being a functioning government with resources plentiful enough to sustain its citizens makes Sasori's feat far superior. That's not even going into the geographic and distance difficulties he would likely encounter in conquering a country. 



> Sasuke beat him with genjutsu and then absorbed Orochimaru's power.



Sasori was actively attempting to kill a far healthier Orochimaru, who felt the need to bring Kabuto to their rendezvous. Sasuke, on the other hand, waited until he was bedridden to even _attempt_ betraying him and credited his victory to that factor.



> Sasuke was in the bingo book and a top priority for Konoha's ROOT.



Sasuke was in the bingo book because he was a missing-nin who defected to an enemy village. He was priority for Konoha's ROOT because Orochimaru with the Sharingan and other Uchiha perks would bend Tsunade and Konoha backwards, which nobody desired.



> Sasuke "defeated" Orochimaru as far as the world was concerned.



And Sasori defeated the Sandaime Kazekage as far as the databook is concerned. Someone who wasn't bedridden.

It's pure hypocrisy that Sasori's feat of defeating the strongest Kazekage is constantly devalued while Sasuke's ability to momentarily suppress a dying man is treated as something to write home about.



> Sharingan Genjutsu (4.5)



Sasuke has a 4 in genjutsu, same as Sasori.



> Vastly Superior Durability



Flip the page[1][2] Sasuke is severely injured while the surrounding area only has surface-level damage. And that was the damage from multiple C2 bombs, one of which was underground.



> Poison Immunity



 Which Sasori has by virtue of being a puppet.



> Sasuke is superior in nearly every way.



Then prove it with more than a factually incorrect, half-assed laundry list of Sasuke's abilities.

Good luck proving that though, since Sasori beats or is tied with Hebi Sasuke in 7 out of 8 databook categories and his portrayal puts him on par with Orochimaru.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> And Satetsu is definitely a good enough offense to destroy Manda. I'm not Saying Sasori wins because I think Hebi is a bad matchup. I see it 50/50, *But Sasori is also Smarter than hebi* and with no knowledge he's getting tagged from Sasori. Sasuke is not immune to an extremely complex poison noone has ever know about.



That's not true by feats. Hebi was smarter in his fights than Sasori as well.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Low Kage do not clash with Hanzō numerous times and live to tell the tale. Nor do they seal the Shukaku by themselves. Chiyo has done both.



You think Chiyo is Mid Kage? ...



Puppetry said:


> Sasori was actively attempting to kill a far healthier Orochimaru, who felt the need to bring Kabuto to their rendezvous.



"Attempting." Sasuke "attempted" to kill Itachi. "Attempting" means nothing.



Puppetry said:


> And Sasori defeated the Sandaime Kazekage as far as the databook is concerned. Someone who wasn't bedridden.



You don't know the state of the Kazekage. Nobody does.



Puppetry said:


> Flip the page[1][2] Sasuke is severely injured while the surrounding area only has surface-level damage. And that was the damage from multiple C2 bombs, one of which was underground.



He survived a huge explosion _vastly superior_ to anything Sasori survived.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 18, 2015)

I hope you don't actually want to push the notion that 3rd Kazekage was gimped. Considering how many statements about this whole deal have nothing even remotely close.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

I'm pushing the _fact_ that we don't know how he was beaten or if it was a traditional fight, an ambush, poisoning him beforehand, etc.

And considering Sasori _with_ the Kazekage is Mid Kage, then I think it's unlikely he silently abducted the most powerful previous Kazekage (in the middle of Sunagakure?) in a traditional BD fight.

More than likely, there was opportunism involved in Sasori silently taking out the Kazekage, just like there was for Sasuke taking out Orochimaru under Kabuto and the Sound country's nose.​


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## Puppetry (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You think Chiyo is Mid Kage? ...



That's why I listed accomplishments placing her there. 



> "Attempting." Sasuke "attempted" to kill Itachi. "Attempting" means nothing.



Sasuke killed Itachi (jobbing or not). Attempting meant an awful lot there.



> You don't know the state of the Kazekage. Nobody does.



The village elders did, and they were utterly perplexed as to how he could have been murdered. An impairment would have justified this, yet no justification was given.



> He survived a huge explosion _vastly superior_ to anything Sasori survived.



Why is that explosion vastly superior? Why didn't this vastly superior explosion shatter the land like Sakura's fist did, despite being embedded in it? 

Generalizing both their durability feats as 'survival' doesn't do justice to the fact that Sasori escaped Sakura's punch unscathed while Sasuke lost a wing and was covered in injuries.



Strategoob said:


> And considering Sasori _with_ the Kazekage is Mid Kage, then I think it's unlikely he silently abducted the most powerful previous Kazekage (in the middle of Sunagakure?) in a traditional BD fight.
> 
> More than likely, there was opportunism involved in Sasori silently taking out the Kazekage, just like there was for Sasuke taking out Orochimaru under Kabuto and the Sound country's nose.​



You just cited an example of when a silent abduction can occur within the context of a traditional fight. Orochimaru was ill and Sasuke ambushed him, but the two then _fought traditionally_ and a clear victor was decided - all without leaving Orochimaru's chambers or rousing an army of Oto shinobi to come to their master's aid.


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## Matty (Aug 18, 2015)

Hebi is wanked. It's just fact. Sasuke is one of the most versatile and best fighters but against Sasori with no poison immunity he loses. Idc about Manda or anything, no knowledge Sasuke goes for his heart cannister and gets stomach cabled to his face. THE ONLY REASON SASORI DIED IS BECAUSE HE ALLOWED HIMSELF TO. I don't think people take these statements seriously. Kishi wrote this for a reason, he would've won but he wanted to die.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Hebi Sauce beat a _much_ stronger opponent than the ones Sasori lost to.

Sasori is wanked.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 18, 2015)

Your face is wanked


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## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hebi Sauce beat a _much_ stronger opponent than the ones Sasori lost to.
> 
> Sasori is wanked.



Couple of reasons why your wank is showing:

1. You dismiss manga canon cause it happened off screen, but go on about posion immunity that never happened on or off screen and was only speculated on by another character that hasn't seen sauce in 3 years.

2. You go on and on about how sauce had extreme difficulty despite having numerous advantages against deidara beacuse of context (wanted to inetrrogate him)
but you forget context when you need to downplay sasori (chiyo's intel, sakura's antidotes, and the fact that sasori just said screw it and gave up at the end).

3. Comparing stats without actually providing feats for them like:
"sauce is smarter cause thats how I see it" or "sauce is faster becaue he nearly blitzed deidara who isn't particulary fast  on foot to begin with"

4. Ignoring the fact that sauce had major advantages against anyone he faced and would normally been rekt.

5. Ignoring Deidara's admission that sasori is superior to himself because you need to downplay.

Facts of the manga:
1. Sasuke beat a terminally ill orochimaru with no ninjutsu, not even worth mentioning.
2. Sasuke drawed with deidara despite having all the possible advantages and massive plot shields.
3. He only lived throught the itachi fight cause itachi let him. (again a terminally ill itachi at that)

These are barely worthy of low-kage, not to mention mid-kage.
most of the akatsuki trash him in a full-kowledge scenario.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Your wank is painful to read now.



Deer Lord said:


> 2. Sasuke drawed with deidara despite having all the possible advantages and massive plot shields.



Like Deidara prepping an immunity to Sharingan genjutsu.
Like Obito setting up a mind field for Deidara, trapping Sasuke.
Like Sasuke holding back throughout the match to get info on Itachi.
Like Sasuke walking away alive and Deidara dead. "Draw."
Sasuke having the raiton element = "All the possible advantages."



Deer Lord said:


> These are barely worthy of low-kage, not to mention mid-kage..



A half-prepped Deidara captured Shukaku Gaara in the Suna desert (High Kage) and prep-less Deidara without arms needed an _instant giant Kamui_ to be taken out quickly or else Kakashi (Low Kage,) Gai (potential God Tier,) KN2 (Low Kage,) Neji (Jonin) and Lee (Chunin+) would all be dead.

Yet Deidara, and the guy who beat him with the numerous disadvantages listed above, are "barely worthy of Low Kage." Meanwhile, a fully-prepped Sasori loses to Chiyo (Low Kage) and Sakura (Chunin+) and he's "clearly a Mid Kage." Whatever dude. If you can't see how biased that is, we're good.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Your wank is painful to read now.


no legitimate answer? though so. 




> Like Deidara prepping a counter to Sharingan genjutsu.


that didn't work.



> Like Obito setting up a mind field.


meaningless against sharingan and raiton.



> Like Sasuke holding back from using Kirin.


not a cloud in the sky mate.



> Like Sasuke walking away live and Deidara dead. "Draw."


both were exhausted by the end, difference is deidara isn't kishi's favourite.




> A half-prepped Deidara captured Shukaku Gaara, a High Kage, in Suna.


C3 is prep though. since he didn't have it against sauce  



> A prepless Deidara needed an instant giant Kamui to be taken out.


and...?


> Or else Kakashi, Gai, Naruto, Neji, and Lee would all be dead.


and...?


> "Barely worthy of Low Kage."
> Meanwhile, a fully-prepped Sasori loses to Chiyo and Sakura.
> "Mid Kage."


there are these things called letters in a manga. if you would have used them you would have had your answer a long time ago.



> Whatever dude.


K.


Wank harder bro.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 18, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> These are* barely worthy of low-kage*, not to mention mid-kage.
> most of the akatsuki trash him in a full-kowledge scenario.



That's just flat out hating now.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

The mine field vastly limited movement, so it wasn't useless. 

The rest isn't worth responding to. Let's agree to disagree.


----------



## Empathy (Aug 18, 2015)

"_Sasori lost to Sakura and Chiyo_," is used a lot to marginalize him, as though he was outmatched by a superior, yet overall weak enemy. The fact that Chiyo thought Sasori allowed her final attack to kill him and believed that instead, she should've been the one killed if Sasori really desired it in that moment, is often glossed over. Moreover, Sakura and Chiyo would've died several times over if not for prior preparation and PIS, and that fact is also habitually ignored. Being vastly superior to a low Kage well-tailored to fight him such as a Chiyo (plus the addition of Sakura), and subjugating a noteworthy Kage of his own, easily makes Sasori a mid Kage level shinobi at the least. 

I believe it's worth noting that Deidara's belief that his senior member was stronger than him (despite his motives possibly being questionable), and the fact that the Sandaime Kazekage was regarded as the strongest one in history?were both meant to serve as an implication from the author at the time, that Sasori also would've been capable of replicating Deidara's feat of capturing Gaara. Sasori receiving that distinction from a proud member like Deidara, is important because guys like Kakuzu or Kisame don't sit noticeably above Deidara, whilst he ostensibly considered Sasori a notch above him. 

Furthermore, Deidara and Sasori's separate intentions to take on Orochimaru, compared to Deidara's performance against Hebi Sasuke and his strength relative to Orochimaru's at concurrent junctures, also make it seem like they were both credible threats to the Sannin. It takes a lot of subjective nay-saying "(_The Sandaime wasn't actually the strongest!_" "_Deidara was lying at the time and never revealed it_! etc.)" to discredit Sasori. I won't say that none of it holds weight or has any basis in fact, but looking at all his accolades together and trying to disparage every one of them, makes it seem much less objective. 

Also, besides the obvious doujutsu users, Kisame seems like the most popular choice for defeating Hebi Sasuke. I'd like to know how Kisame so clearly prevails against him. As I mentioned in my earlier post, Sasori would be the only non-doujutsu horse I might bet on against Sasuke.


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## Kai (Aug 18, 2015)

Sasori allowing himself to die is often overlooked when he's being marginalized. Chiyo believed, for all intents and purposes, Sasori should have won that battle and let's not forget Sakura came fully prepared with antidotes to counteract Sasori's poisons.

He's not beating Sasuke though.  Orochimaru and Kabuto likely would have killed Sasori at the Heaven/Earth Bridge.


----------



## Matty (Aug 18, 2015)

Kai said:


> Sasori allowing himself to die is often overlooked when he's being marginalized. Chiyo believed, for all intents and purposes, Sasori should have won that battle and let's not forget Sakura came fully prepared with antidotes to counteract Sasori's poisons.
> 
> He's not beating Sasuke though.  Orochimaru and Kabuto likely would have killed Sasori at the Heaven/Earth Bridge.



Kai I know you're Rinning at life man but do you gotta stomp on my Sasori beating Orochimaru dreams like that


----------



## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

Prime orochimaro would have beaten sasori. (and sasuke for that matter)
Weakened orochimaro with no hands...not so much.

and oro got even weaker than that by the time he faced sasuke.


As for Kisame. samehade just trolls most of sasuke's moves
kirabi already tried raiton CQC against kisame, didn't work so well.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 18, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Hebi is wanked. Idc about Manda or anything, no knowledge Sasuke goes for his heart cannister and *gets stomach cabled to his face*.



Because Sasori is likely to fight with his real body off the bat with no knowledge and go for that rather then using hiruko and other puppets first amiright? Come on cuzz, I'm not saying much but in the words of Drake "I'm just saying you can do better".


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## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

^
He has full knowledge here.


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## Bonly (Aug 18, 2015)

Doesn't matter if he has that here as the situation matty mentioned(which is what I quoted) was no knowledge.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 18, 2015)

Didn't Sakrua dodge the cable and then throw Sasori around like a ragdoll?


----------



## Bonly (Aug 18, 2015)

Actually Sakura got hit by it. Though yeah she did pick it up and punch Sasori


----------



## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Didn't Sakrua dodge the cable and then throw Sasori around like a ragdoll?


got hit
nope.


sasuke will dodge it though. but there's no reason for sasori to use that off the bat
the sandaime is enough.


----------



## Matty (Aug 18, 2015)

I don't mean he comes out with his body. first. If he get's blitzed off the bat and Sasuke is a mere 10 meters away from him coming full speed, his only defense is just stomach cabling him/ That's why I don't get why people downplay his PB so much because if he is as intelligent as a 5 in the DB would suggest anyone that got even remotely close would get cabled.

And yes @strat she got tagged pretty badly and only managed to even survive because of the antidotes that were prepped and ready beforehand.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 18, 2015)

I'd think busting out the flamethrowers would be more effective than stomach cable.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 19, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I don't mean he comes out with his body. first. If he get's blitzed off the bat and Sasuke is a mere 10 meters away from him coming full speed, his only defense is just stomach cabling him/ That's why I don't get why people downplay his PB so much because if he is as intelligent as a 5 in the DB would suggest anyone that got even remotely close would get cabled.
> 
> And yes @strat she got tagged pretty badly and only managed to even survive because of the antidotes that were prepped and ready beforehand.



If Sasori got blitzed while inside Hiruko he still has access to his other puppets, chakra strings, flame throwers, and his blades on his back. His core isn't his only line of defense and even then it hasn't shown the speed to suggest it's gonna hit Sasuke either so yeah


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## Puppetry (Aug 19, 2015)

Sasori wasn't blitzed (overwhelmed by their speed): he was surprised. He had no issue perceiving and reacting to Chiyo and Sakura's movements when wearing Hiruko. Chiyo knew that a direct frontal assault would be pointless, which is why she resorted to trickery.

Even during this supposed blitz, Sasori exhibited impressive movement speed by distancing himself from Hiruko's remains before Chiyo could reposition Sakura to attack his main body.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 19, 2015)

It's not like Chiyo actually tried to, though _(1)_.

She paused (as if she was just waiting for him to reveal himself). Sakura probably didn't even know what she was looking at anyway (just that there were strange parts all over the place) and if Chiyo slung her fist without Sakura registering it herself, it wouldn't do anything.

I wouldn't label that an impressive display of movement speed.


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## Puppetry (Aug 19, 2015)

She didn't because she couldn't, just like she didn't try to stop Sasori summoning Satetsu - it wasn't possible.

Chiyo was well aware of her disadvantaged (in the sense that she was weaker) position at the start, which speaks highly of Sasori's abilities - in this instance, his movement speed and reflexes. 

P.S: Chiyo had no knowledge of Sasori's puppet body. She had no reason to assume that Sakura's average punches would be ineffective against someone stereo-typically assumed to be weak in taijutsu.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 20, 2015)

It doesn't necessarily follow from somebody pausing that they would simply be unable to act within that moment.

Chiyo explicitly told Sakura that at first she believed that she could deal with him on her own at the start _(1)_, and after that she became aware that she was disadvantaged specifically because she lacked the sheer force necessary to penetrate Hiruko's shell _(2)_.

There was no moment in that entire event indicative of Chiyo being at a _reflexive_ disadvantage to top it off.

Puppeteers are stereotypically "weak" in Taijutsu only because it's obviously hard to engage in hand-to-hand combat _when pre-occupied with handling a puppet_ _(3)_, something which wouldn't apply to Sasori at that moment, while Sakura is otherwise just a teenage girl.


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## Puppetry (Aug 20, 2015)

Chiyo was obviously perturbed by the tail's swiftness, which is why she bound it - preventing it from hitting Sakura and manifesting an opening that otherwise wouldn't exist. She was also concerned about additional mechanisms - one of them being the shell to fortify defense, but also the modified left hand and perhaps the needle spray from Hiruko's mouth (she speculated on other modifications hidden from sight). 

That amounts to a reflexive disadvantage. Sasori's quicker than her (4.5 vs. 4) and she was also covering for a knowledge deficit. She overcame these challenges well enough to dislodge Sasori from Hiruko, but not enough to hit his actual self. Chiyo wouldn't have allowed Sasori to mobilize more puppets if she could have prevented it. 

Being incapable of fighting while manipulating puppets only partially explains the stereotype's origins - their taijutsu prowess is called into question by using them in the first place. Just like Deidara, who weaseled out of close combat against Sasuke after admitting it wasn't his forte, puppeteers traditionally don't enter physical scuffles because it doesn't play towards their strengths.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 20, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Chiyo was obviously perturbed by the tail's swiftness, which is why she bound it - preventing it from hitting Sakura and manifesting an opening that otherwise wouldn't exist.



Yeah...it'd be smart to minimize risk when Sakura couldn't afford to be so much as scratched (at least as far as she knew at that point).

Chiyo observing that Sasori's handling of the puppet hadn't changed doesn't mean she was worried about her own ability to deal with it. She still believed she could take him by herself until she exposed the puppet body and saw the new shell. You're _looking_ _for_ _something_ _that_ _isn't_ _there_.



> She was also concerned about additional mechanisms - one of them being the shell to fortify defense, but also the modified left hand and perhaps the needle spray from Hiruko's mouth (she speculated on other modifications hidden from sight).



Providing another good reason for her to have simply refrained from attacking again immediately after Hiruko was destroyed- realizing that if Sasori actually did have another hidden item or trap beneath that cloak (which he could have, having already redesigned Hiruko) it'd be easier to keep Sakura from being scratched if she was waiting as opposed to being sent right into its path and needing to be pulled back at the last split second (a la Sakura and the Third Kazekage).



> Sasori's quicker than her (4.5 vs. 4).



Okay.

This doesn't mean he's so much quicker that she couldn't have attacked him with Sakura had she chosen to, though.



> Chiyo wouldn't have allowed Sasori to mobilize more puppets if she could have prevented it.



Which, again, could be for reasons that have nothing to do with Sasori's speed.



> Being incapable of fighting while manipulating puppets only partially explains the stereotype's origins - their taijutsu prowess is called into question by using them in the first place.



...So did you just stop reading before Shino explained in the next panel _why_ he would call that into question by that or what? "_Because you need to concentrate when you use your Jutsu...it leaves you wide open"_.

It still isn't applicable to Sasori in that instance. Moreover, if you want to use the databooks Sasori's skill in Taijutsu is in the same range as Chiyo's (which makes sense, since she taught him) and above Deidara's.

Deidara weaseled out of it against Sasuke because Sasuke was too fast (Sasuke was easily one of the speediest characters we'd seen up to that point, too) to stay on the ground, not because he was weak in that range.


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## Puppetry (Aug 20, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Yeah...it'd be smart to minimize risk when Sakura couldn't afford to be so much as scratched (at least as far as she knew at that point).



Exposing a lack of belief in her ability to outright counter the tail's speed, which she had already glimpsed. She didn't take those precautions against the left arm.



> She still believed she could take him by herself until she exposed the puppet body and saw the new shell.



Disadvantage =/=  totally outclassed. She realized her movements were less agile, not that she was useless. Speed isn't everything; she had enough of it to put up a fight. Still doesn't mean she's equally as reflexive as Sasori, though.



> You're _looking_ _for_ _something_ _that_ _isn't_ _there_.



Thank you for illustrating my point. Chiyo was at a reflexive disadvantage, which is why we see worry and shock on Chiyo's face during the actual battle, her hauling Sakura back instead of pressing forward (and having to use Hiruko's tail to buy the time needed to do so), failing to move her in time to escape the poison cloud, failing to maneuver Sakura to properly evade the stringed kunai, and only managing to tie with Sasori in a 2 vs. 1 puppet battle.

You're acting as though I stated Chiyo was being consistently blitzed by Sasori.



> Providing another good reason for her to have simply refrained from attacking again immediately after Hiruko was destroyed.



She speculated on _Hiruko's_ potential traps. Sasori and the cloak he wears are not Hiruko, and thus are exempt from her guesswork. 



> ...So did you just stop reading before Shino explained in the next panel _why_ he would call that into question by that or what?



No, he already said why, because Kankurō is a mid range/long range fighter and thus lacks skill in close quarters combat. Manipulating his puppets compounds a (supposedly) already existent flaw.



> Moreover, if you want to use the databooks Sasori's skill in Taijutsu is in the same range as Chiyo's (which makes sense, since she taught him) and above Deidara's.



Yes, but there's also more to close quarters than pure taijutsu. Deidara and Sasuke are tied in both taijutsu and speed, but you can't block a sword or a Chidori jab like you can a punch. Same with Kankurō vs Shino; not only was Kankurō concentrating on his puppets, but he has no techniques or weapons to aid him while Shino was busy planting a bug on him.  



> Deidara weaseled out of it against Sasuke because Sasuke was too fast (Sasuke was easily one of the speediest characters we'd seen up to that point, too) to stay on the ground, not because he was weak in that range.



Sasuke's speed was an issue because he was intent on pursuing close quarters combat, which isn't Deidara's forte. Deidara did not mean he was too fast in the sense he couldn't react to Sasuke's movements - he could and did, multiple times. But he was too fast to fight in that range comfortably, which points to a lack of close quarters skill (at least comparable to Sasuke's).


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## FlamingRain (Aug 21, 2015)

Puppetry said:


> Exposing a lack of belief in her ability to outright counter the tail's speed, which she had already glimpsed. She didn't take those precautions against the left arm.



She could have thought she'd be able to pull it off and still not wished to chance it when she didn't need to, since only a scratch is required for Sakura to be out of the game. She didn't take those precautions against the left arm because the left arm had been shot off and she had Sakura come in _from the right_. The tail could reach anywhere around Hiruko so you'd need to do something besides come from another direction, unless you could straight up outspeed it (which hasn't been part of any argument of mine).

But even if she hadn't, I linked to Chiyo moving the tail from _behind_ the _moving_ Kazekage up to directly in front of Sakura in time to block its attack because I was wondering if you meant the tail itself was a particularly fast piece. If the tail itself is simply able to be manipulated more swiftly (because its lightweight or something idk), then plotting to stall it to ensure that Sakura wasn't scratched didn't have anything to do with a disparity in reflexes between the puppeteers themselves but the quality of their puppets. Especially since Chiyo, too, was apparently able to move _it_ faster than she was moving Sakura.



> Still doesn't mean she's equally as reflexive as Sasori, though.



What I'm arguing is that she wasn't so much less so that she couldn't have had Sakura attack Sasori when she was right in front of him before he got away. That doesn't require her to be equal to Sasori fullstop, so I don't care whether or not it means she's equally as reflexive as Sasori.

We have Chiyo stating that Sasori's experience pales in comparison to hers, pulling Hiruko's tail all the way from behind the moving Kazekage up to block for Sakura and earning marks from Sasori himself, Sasori commenting that as long as Chiyo was manipulating Sakura trying to strike her would be useless, and then Chiyo countering Sasori blow for blow using puppets he knew inside and out when this was her first experience against the particular puppet he was using.

Sasori being able to distance himself from directly in front of Sakura faster than Chiyo can have her attack again implies a rather sizable disparity, and Chiyo did well enough throughout the fight that such shouldn't have been the case.



> Chiyo was at a reflexive disadvantage, which is why we see worry and shock on Chiyo's face during the actual battle, her hauling Sakura back instead of pressing forward (and having to use Hiruko's tail to buy the time needed to do so), failing to move her in time to escape the poison cloud, failing to maneuver Sakura to properly evade the stringed kunai, and only managing to tie with Sasori in a 2 vs. 1 puppet battle.



The fact that Sasori made the Kazekage a puppet was surprising enough.

Chiyo had never seen the Kazekage puppet before. Why have the human-and-able-to-be-poisoned Sakura press-forwards in all her bare-handed glory? Even Chiyo being completely even with Sasori reflexively would still leave Sakura at risk of being scratched and killed. Chiyo really didn't want Sakura involved, hence the swap to other puppets. 

Being surprised at the speed of a puppet you've never fought before is entirely understandable, the poison cloud was deployed because Sasori could see that he wasn't going to catch Sakura as long as she was being controlled by Chiyo otherwise, and the kunai came after the poison cloud which would have obscured Chiyo's vision.

I don't see why it being a two-verses-one puppet exchange following that matters when Chiyo only has two hands to work with the same as Sasori and Sasori would've been more familiar with her puppets than vice versa to boot.



> She speculated on _Hiruko's_ potential traps. Sasori and the cloak he wears are not Hiruko, and thus are exempt from her guesswork.



The wielder of Hiruko would not be exempt from considerations about what could have changed within Hiruko. If he'd bothered to change the shell and arm then for all she knew Sasori might've decided to keep something extra inside with him just in case he needed to ditch Hiruko. Chiyo keeps weapons on her besides her puppets, it's not unreasonable to wait in case the person she taught how to fight keeps something else inside with him as well.



> No, he already said why, because Kankurō is a mid range/long range fighter and thus lacks skill in close quarters combat. Manipulating his puppets compounds a (supposedly) already existent flaw.



Which would be silly because that reasoning wouldn't even apply to Shino himself or his Genjutsu specialist sensei. It hasn't applied with most of the cast in general. Kakashi, Haku, Zaku, Tenten, Temari, Baki, Anko, Sai, Yamato, Kitsuchi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Itachi, Kabuto, Chiyo, Kakuzu, Konan, Gengetsu, Hashirama, etc. all defy that reasoning.

Shino- _"You use Jutsu to fight from a distance...that's why I think you can't handle close-combat,"_.

What do you mean?

Shino- _"Because you need to concentrate when you use your Jutsu...you're left wide open..."_.

Oh, okay.

With the latter sentence Shino is elaborating on the former- he thinks Kankuro can't handle close-combat _because_ he's busy with his puppet off in the distance. Chiyo's _"*because* they're open to attack *when* controlling their puppets, puppeteers are weak in close-combat"_ is a reiteration of Shino's point. 

The "why" is the _preoccupation with_ handling a weapon that's at a distance, not just the fact that they're mid-to-long range fighters.



> Yes, but there's also more to close quarters than pure taijutsu. Deidara and Sasuke are tied in both taijutsu and speed, but you can't block a sword or a Chidori jab like you can a punch. Same with Kankurō vs Shino; not only was Kankurō concentrating on his puppets, but he has no techniques or weapons to aid him while Shino was busy planting a bug on him.



True.

_Sakura_ (and by extension Chiyo using Sakura) can't do anything besides punch though, and she is less reflexive than Chiyo herself. Like I said before Sakura probably didn't even know what she was looking at anyway (just that there were strange parts all over the place) and if Chiyo slung her fist without Sakura registering it herself, it wouldn't be anything besides a teenage girl's punch on what Chiyo would have expected to be a grown man. It wouldn't have stopped him.



> Sasuke's speed was an issue because he was intent on pursuing close quarters combat, which isn't Deidara's forte. Deidara did not mean he was too fast in the sense he couldn't react to Sasuke's movements - he could and did, multiple times. But he was too fast to fight in that range comfortably, which points to a lack of close quarters skill (at least comparable to Sasuke's).



If Deidara's close-quarters skill wasn't comparable to Sasuke's they wouldn't have been given the same score for Taijutsu (kenjutsu is just a subcategory of Taijutsu), and Deidara made his comment before Sasuke even started using Raitons (meaning a kunai would have sufficed to block the sword).

Sasuke's speed was an issue simply because it was too high for Deidara to reliably handle, not because of a lack of skill on the part of the artist.


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## TheGreen1 (Aug 21, 2015)

Let's see.

Obito, Pein, Prepped Konan, Kisame, Healthy Itachi, Sick Itachi and that's about it. 

I'm not Sasuke's biggest fan, but his fight against Deidara was a legitimate win for him. 

But Sasuke isn't winning against these guys as Hebi. Sorry, just not happening.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2015)

kakuzu, itachi, kisame, sasori, nagato, obito

the rest loose

sharingan has already shown a weakness at following up with multiple attacks so kakuzu is ideal for killing sasuke as is sasori


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## Chaotic Gangsta (Aug 31, 2015)

Only Kisame and Sasori would defeat him. Everyone else? No.


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## Kinjishi (Aug 31, 2015)

Any of them _can_ beat him. Those most likely to defeat him consistently are Kakuzu, Sasori, and Kisame. This version of Sasuke already beat Deidara, so I can't really give the latter the benefit of the doubt. Konan and Hidan are toss-ups, and though I feel both were above Sasuke's level, Sasuke beating Deidara and having a respectable showing against Itachi makes me believe Sasuke would slightly edge them out. Then again, full knowledge for Akatsuki gives them an unfair advantage and makes me a bit uncomfortable as to Sasuke's chances of success, and would probably give Deidara a significantly easier fight compared to their first confrontation.


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## thechickensage (Sep 1, 2015)

Kakuzu beats him.  Kakuzu would have soloed Kakashi if it weren't for help.  

Sasori kills him.  Orochimaru gave Sasuke immunity to basic poisons, ones that Shizune could prepare.  The puppet master poisons had extreme hype for their complexity and resistance to antidotes.  And one of Sakura and Tsunade's greatest hyped feats are their medicine/antidote skills, so I don't think Orochimaru would have been able to give Sasuke complete immunity to all poison (especially the "worst" poison in the entire series).  

Kisame could handle Bee, who just...completely owned Hebi Sasuke + his team casually, while thinking up new raps.  Kisame owns Sasuke with low/medium difficulty.  

Konan...is strange...her powers are extremely versatile, and she is an intelligent fighter.  But I dont really think she has that much in terms of offensive power, so I see this ending more in a stalemate or with her running away.  It would be very difficult for Sasuke to kill her though.

Hidan is a wildcard since his weirdo jutsu depends on the patience of his enemies in order to work.  If Sauce feels impatient, and doesn't allow him to complete his little circle, then Sauce easily wins.  If Sauce stands there and lets him complete his jutsu, he's completely screwed.

Deidara loses.

And as a bonus, Obito kills Sauce with pretty low difficulty.


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## Puppetry (Sep 2, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> She didn't take those precautions against the left arm because the left arm had been shot off.



I'm talking about when she surreptitiously placed chakra threads on Hiruko's tail. In that instance, she chose to bind the known element (the tail) instead of the unknown element (the arm).

Acting under the assumption that she wasn't acutely concerned about the tail, that isn't an intelligent move. Reason says to be particularly wary of the unknown variable rather than one you supposedly have confidence you could handle. That Chiyo chose to preemptively counter the tail suggests worry far beyond ordinary safety precautions.



> The tail could reach anywhere around Hiruko so you'd need to do something besides come from another direction.



She didn't know whether the arm had a hidden cable in it/other tricks. But she bound the tail because it was a credible threat already.



> But even if she hadn't, I linked to Chiyo moving the tail from _behind_ the _moving_ Kazekage up to directly in front of Sakura in time to block its attack because I was wondering if you meant the tail itself was a particularly fast piece.



It's more likely that the tail was covered by the Kazekage puppet thanks to the angle than it is Chiyo managing to outpace Sasori's puppet. After all, it was right in front[1] of Sakura, and she did move her arm upwards to block.

The tail is inherently more difficult to evade (in some respects) because it's  guided while the other weapons are not. I don't think it's necessarily 'faster.'



> We have Chiyo stating that Sasori's experience pales in comparison to hers.



Which is quantitatively correct but not qualitatively so. As you've stated elsewhere, Chiyo was astounded that a Kazekage puppet even existed. She clearly didn't know the extent of his abilities or his experience. She made a judgement call based on age, which only tells part of the story. She was wrong about Sasori just as she was about Sakura.



> Sasori commenting that as long as Chiyo was manipulating Sakura trying to strike her would be useless.



'Strike' being the operative word. Sasori was striking without success, while Sakura and Chiyo were purely defensive because they had no other options. That speaks volumes, just as Deidara's desire to avoid Sasuke in close quarters (despite  never being tagged) spoke volumes on their respective abilities. 



> Chiyo had never seen the Kazekage puppet before. Why have the human-and-able-to-be-poisoned Sakura press-forwards in all her bare-handed glory?



The same reason she used it against a variant of Hiruko she had limited knowledge on; Sakura acts as her most destructive puppet. Knowing nothing about the puppet also encompasses knowing nothing about its defensive abilities, which Sakura would have the easiest time with.

Just as Chiyo believed Sakura couldn't endure a toxic scratch, Sasori knew a punch would destroy his Kazekage puppet. Yet he pressed forward anyways, because his skills and abilities were superior to Chiyo's. 



> Being surprised at the speed of a puppet you've never fought before is entirely understandable, the poison cloud was deployed because Sasori could see that he wasn't going to catch Sakura as long as she was being controlled by Chiyo otherwise, and the kunai came after the poison cloud which would have obscured Chiyo's vision.



Chiyo wouldn't have just been surprised at the puppet's speed. I'd imagine she's faced plenty of quick opponents. She was commenting and worried because its speed was potentially dangerous to her/Sakura.

Why the poison the cloud was deployed doesn't change that Chiyo failed to adequately maneuver Sakura out of its way. The cloud may have obstructed Chiyo's vision, but she was still actively pulling Sakura backwards, which suggests that the kunai are faster than chakra-string Sakura in pure movement speed.



> I don't see why it being a two-verses-one puppet exchange following that matters when Chiyo only has two hands to work with the same as Sasori and Sasori would've been more familiar with her puppets than vice versa to boot.



What? Chiyo was capable of manipulating ten high level puppets flawlessly. There's never been any indication that at their level the number of fingers drastically effects their puppetry. 

And even in there was, that Chiyo chose to attack directly with two puppets definitely suggests that their combined attack rate is higher, otherwise she would have focused all of her energy on a single puppet.

Familiarity is relevant, and Chiyo likely has spades of it. I'd imagine she's quite familiar with a humanoid puppet wielding a sword, just as Sasori is equally familiar with the whip and saw the mother and father puppets had. As neither Chiyo nor Sasori did anything deceptive during that portion of the fight, I don't see how more specific experience would be helpful. 



> The wielder of Hiruko would not be exempt from considerations about what could have changed within Hiruko.



He would be if he weren't, inside Hiruko, which he wasn't since its debris was fluttering in the air.



> Chiyo keeps weapons on her besides her puppets, it's not unreasonable to wait in case the person she taught how to fight keeps something else inside with him as well.



She keeps kunai and wire string, which are basic shinobi tools. Those are not traps potent enough to elicit hesitation - they're staples in shinobi combat that everyone should be prepared to encounter. 

Chiyo is confirmed to have taught Sasori puppetry and nothing else.



> Which would be silly because that reasoning wouldn't even apply to Shino himself or his Genjutsu specialist sensei. It hasn't applied with most of the cast in general. Kakashi, Haku, Zaku, Tenten, Temari, Baki, Anko, Sai, Yamato, Kitsuchi, Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Hiruzen, Itachi, Kabuto, Chiyo, Kakuzu, Konan, Gengetsu, Hashirama, etc. all defy that reasoning.



That's because your list encompasses anyone who's shown a long range ability, instead of shinobi who are _exclusively_ long range combatants. In some case it's just wrong: Temari is exclusively long range and was stated to be better at such than close range, and Baki's only showing is in close combat.



> Shino- _"You use Jutsu to fight from a distance...that's why I think you can't handle close-combat,"_.
> 
> What do you mean?





> -The lack of skill in close combat is a puppeteer's weakness. Sasori conquered it thanks to Hiruko.



_Skill._ Not a lack of concentration (though that is another issue) but skill. As Kankurō puppets it, they're jutsu specialists. And jutsu specialists don't commonly use taijutsu, which is why their long range skills are far superior.



> If Chiyo slung her fist without Sakura registering it herself, it wouldn't be anything besides a teenage girl's punch on what Chiyo would have expected to be a grown man. It wouldn't have stopped him.



Ninja have superhuman strength. Forest of Death Sasuke knocked out a massive bear, and his physical stats are all around lower thank Sakura's. A teenage magical ninja shouldn't have an issue injuring a grown man via a punch, especially if he's caught off guard.



> If Deidara's close-quarters skill wasn't comparable to Sasuke's they wouldn't have been given the same score for Taijutsu.



Following this, Sasuke shouldn't be too fast for Deidara and have the same speed stat as him.  



> Deidara made his comment before Sasuke even started using Raitons.



After[1]

Prior to this Deidara had stated Sasuke was fast, not _too_ fast for close combat.


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## LuLu88 (Sep 2, 2015)

I'll might go with Kisame

I think he'll not be that easy to take down by Sasuke


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 2, 2015)

Kisame, and thats a maybe.


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## FlamingRain (Sep 2, 2015)

@ Puppetry,

I'm not going to address the entire post, but a few things:

_*1.)*_ The fact that the Kazekage was still in motion (as was Sakura) means that even if it was just blocking the tail due to the angle at first it'd have been past it by the time it brought out the poisoned blades and Chiyo noted its speed. Chiyo still had to have pulled Hiruko's up from behind a moving Kazekage puppet in time to block, which suggests she could move it faster than she could Sakura.

Chiyo also specifically warned Sakura that she wouldn't be able to support her like before _due to_ having lost her other hand, so yes the number of fingers does significantly affect their puppetry. You can handle a puppet a lot better with two hands than you can with one, at any level.


_*2.)*_ No the list doesn't encompass anybody who happens to possess a ranged Jutsu or else Minato, Sakura, Asuma, Gai, Kisame, Tsunade, Jirobo, Kimimaro, Yugito, Jūgo, Bee, Mifune, the Third Raikage, and the like would have all been added.

The long-range specialist Temari still blocked Lee's Leaf Hurricane with with a laugh and said he wasn't all that after all. The other characters listed are primarily ranged fighters with higher Ninjutsu and/or Genjutsu scores than Taijutsu ones, so the point stands. It's a puppeteer weakness because they're fiddling with their puppet from a distance; it's not something that applies to people who use Jutsu to fight from a distance across the board. Those characters and more are evidence that being better at a distance normally doesn't translate into being weak and unable to handle yourself up close.

Excluding everybody who can do anything besides sustain a ranged game from the outset just seems to be dishonest.

I'm also guessing that _"The lack of skill in close combat is a puppeteer's weakness"_ sentence is a quote from the section on Hiruko in the databook. If it is, the VIZ just says . Sasori's databook score shows that he _doesn't_ lack skill up close and is actually significantly above average, like Chiyo (and even Kankuro has a 3 out of 5). He'd still be unable to engage in/handle close-combat if he was busy trying to maneuver his puppet around though, which is the real point of the comment, and one which didn't apply after Hiruko was smashed.

Ninja have superhuman durability too or their hands, arms, and legs would be broken whenever they tried to block hits with superhuman strength behind them. Sakura'd have been no problem for Sasori without CES.


_*3.)*_ The databook mentions Sasuke's talent, Orochimaru's Curse Mark and the dynamic vision of the Sharingan when talking about Sasuke's speed. Obito specifically mentioned his Shunshin.

Sasuke was obviously too fast because of his Chakra-enhanced movements such as Shunshin, which wouldn't be reflected in his speed statistic for the same reason CES isn't reflected in Sakura's strength statistic- they're Ninjutsu and Ninjutsu has its own separate category.


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