# Darth Vader vs The Joker



## OS (Sep 11, 2011)

Who is the better villain in your opinion. 

Idea came up when my teacher said Dark Vader is the best movie character ever. 

Use all forms of media.

Can you name better villains?


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## Lucaniel (Sep 11, 2011)

...joker, so much. vader is great and all, but killing joke, arkham asylum, RIP...he's one of the greatest villains in fiction


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## Ulti (Sep 11, 2011)

The Joker.

One of my favorite villains of all time.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Sep 11, 2011)

The Joker, even going off just Heath Ledger's portrayal


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## OS (Sep 11, 2011)

Added something.


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## 8-Peacock-8 (Sep 11, 2011)

Joker for scenario 1 with Darth Vader coming in a close 2nd, for my favorite movie villains (Movie incarnations of the Joker are always epic IMO.)

Better villains in all media? 

I prefer Dio Brando over both.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 11, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Can you name better villains?



this might be wanky of me, but i think johan's in the league. he can't beat joker's decades of different, fantastic interpretations from brilliant writers, but i'm still inclined to put his name forward


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## Fang (Sep 11, 2011)

There's a reason why Vader is listed as one of the greatest all time fictional villains in the IMBD.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 11, 2011)

nurse ratched is also up there. she is an abortion of a human being, and how


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## Bender (Sep 11, 2011)

The joker because of TDK Heath Ledger's performance


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## Blade (Sep 11, 2011)

Draw. Both of them are awesome.


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## OS (Sep 11, 2011)

An Honorable mention from me would be Aji Tae.


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## Samavarti (Sep 11, 2011)

I prefer Joker over darth vader, the only other villans that i can think that are near his level are probably Johan and Griffith.


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## Glued (Sep 11, 2011)

I prefer vader



not a fan of chaotic evil


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Sep 11, 2011)

Depends on the Joker portrayal, sometimes he does nothing for me.

Can't decide, actually. Though I'm only going with movie Vader as he was in the first theatrical trilogy.


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## Fang (Sep 11, 2011)

American Film Institute has Vader at number #3 for all time greatest villains. That's pretty fucking impressive either way you cut it.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 11, 2011)




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## Fang (Sep 11, 2011)

Luke Skywalker is up there too for all time heroes

He's awesome


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## Bluebeard (Sep 11, 2011)

Vader.

Much as I love Joker, sometimes his chaotic and randomness can get pretty pointless and boring. Depends on the writer, though.

I like Darkseid more then both of them, though.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 11, 2011)

Palpatine would be a better match.


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## OS (Sep 11, 2011)

Fang said:


> Luke Skywalker is up there too for all time heroes
> 
> He's awesome



Is is the original trilogy that much better?


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## Bluebeard (Sep 11, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Is is the original trilogy that much better?


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## Risyth (Sep 11, 2011)

Minus Ep. 3. It's not better, but up there with 'em, imo.


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## Glued (Sep 11, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Is is the original trilogy that much better?



Yes it absolutely is.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 11, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Is is the original trilogy that much better?


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## OS (Sep 11, 2011)

Just wondering because I have a fuzzy memory of watching it and don't remember how it was. Only wondered why Yoda looked like a crack head.


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## Risyth (Sep 11, 2011)

Because they used puppets, pm. 

Personally though that beat CGI, until they perfected the CGI...but still...the original movies definitely felt more real and connectable, I guess, because they didn't use a computer.

I know that sounds fake, lol.


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## pikachuwei (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> American Film Institute has Vader at number #3 for all time greatest villains. That's pretty fucking impressive either way you cut it.



Isn't that for films only though?

Considering the vast majority of Joker material is in comics....


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## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Who is the better villain in your opinion.



Joker.

Vader was cool in the original trilogy and all, but then when the second trilogy (the first three episodes) came out and we learned what Anakin was like, it just destroyed his reputation IMO. He was such a fucking Sasuke.



> Idea came up when my teacher said Dark Vader is the best movie character ever.





Who the fuck is "Dark Vader"? I don't know if he's anything like "*Darth* Vader", but even Darth Vader is definitely not the best movie character ever. That title has implications that are far too broad for him to live up to; honestly, I'd rather see it go to Forrest Gump or Godzilla. 



> Use all forms of media.
> 
> Can you name better villains?



Frieza (Dragonball)
Envy (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Wrath (Fullmetal Alchemist)
Makoto Shishio (Rurouni Kenshin)
Yagami Light (Death Note)
Orochimaru (Naruto)
Dio Brando (JoJo's Bizarre Adventure)
Darkseid (DCAU)
Sylar (Heroes; before the show imploded up its own Liberal asshole and jumped way the fuck over the shark)
Hannibal Lecter (The Silence of the Lambs)
Agent Smith (The Matrix)
Terminator (from the original movie)
The Monarch (The Venture Bros.)

This is in terms of being an actual villain, btw. Vader's iconic for his role as an _antagonist_, but he never really struck me as much of a _villain_, and there are plenty I would place above him in that regard. These are just the ones I can think of right now, in no particular order.



Fang said:


> There's a reason why Vader is listed as one of the greatest all time fictional villains in the IMBD.



Because SW gets a LOT of fan-wank.


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## King Hopper (Sep 12, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Because SW gets a LOT of fan-wank.



Forevver Jelly.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2011)

King Hopper said:


> Forever Jelly.



It's the truth.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Sep 12, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> Frieza (Dragonball)
> Envy (Fullmetal Alchemist)
> Wrath (Fullmetal Alchemist)
> Makoto Shishio (Rurouni Kenshin)
> ...



The only ones from that list who are in Vader's league, even as villains are Dio, Darkseid and Hannibal.

There are villains out there that are better. Your list is just terrrible (lol, Orochimaru)




> Because SW gets a LOT of fan-wank.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Sep 12, 2011)

Frieza is an awesome villain


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## Whimsy (Sep 12, 2011)

Original trilogy Vader was a great, menacing villain. Not sure about top 3 in all of film though.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Sep 12, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> Frieza is an awesome villain



But I wouldn't consider him a villain of Vader's caliber


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## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2011)

Kazuma the Shell Bullet said:


> The only ones from that list who are in Vader's league, even as villains are Dio, Darkseid and Hannibal.
> 
> There are villains out there that are better. Your list is just terrrible (lol, Orochimaru)



Orochimaru is a great villain. Like I said, Vader's iconic for his role as an _antagonist_, but that's not quite the same thing; when I think of great villains, I think of malicious bastards who are truly reprehensible. Hans Landa from Inglourious Bastards is a good example of what I'm talking about.

Vader sorta-redeemed himself in the end by saving Luke, and he was never really that malicious to begin with. Oro, Dio, Frieza, etc. were all genuine assholes.

Hell, Eric Cartman is a great villain. 


As if anyone would be jealous of SW's mediocrity.


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## Darth Xanatos (Sep 12, 2011)

Perhpas Vader is not a better "villain" because he redeems himself, but in the old movies he`s a much better character than Joker.


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## Itαchi (Sep 12, 2011)

Joker ofc. I mean, just look at Heath ledgers perfomance. I have to say that was the best psychopatic soziopathic intelligent masterminded evil villian performance I ever saw.

Joker is the best villian in all media I would say.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Whimsy said:


> Original trilogy Vader was a great, menacing villain. Not sure about top 3 in all of film though.



Why? Star Wars has a modern pop-culture impact that has never really rivaled since its legacy on the film/tv and entertainment industry, Vader's lines in TESB are the most parodied as well and his character is still referenced as a villain archtype.



There's also IGN's ranking, Empire and Premier's rankings, Bravo, and of course, the fact that several of his quotes are the most highly parodied in film and fiction.

Several others place him at number #1 either as an all-time villain or all-time movie character period. He's pretty deserving of it given the impact and influence the films have and the appeal of his character. So yeah, I don't agree with you at him not being at least in the top 5 of all time for either villains or characters.

Hell the only people who out-ranked him were Norman Bates and Hannibal Lecter.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Orochimaru being mentioned in the same sentence as these guys...


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## Nevermind (Sep 12, 2011)

Personally, I always thought Palpatine was a better villain than Vader TBH.


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

The Joker is a much better villain. Ani isn't a villain. He's a tragic hero.


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## Black Leg Sanji (Sep 12, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Orochimaru being mentioned in the same sentence as these guys...



Something from Naruto being involved in a greatest anything is retarded


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Pretty much.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Except greatest disappointment.


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## Ser Cokie the Fool (Sep 12, 2011)

read my set


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Dandy.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

Thor said:


> The Joker is a much better villain. Ani isn't a villain. *He's a tragic hero.*



Yeah his status as a great villain took a major hit when they did this to him.
You won't ever see shit like that happen to the Joker hes always going to remain a chaotic evil masterpiece.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Thor said:


> Dandy.



Thor.


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Yeah his status as a great villain took a major hit when they did this to him.
> You won't ever see shit like that happen to the Joker hes always going to remain a chaotic evil masterpiece.



I wouldn't be so sure. DC is going Marvel so I wouldn't be surprised if their best/most popular villains become anti-villains, like Magneto and Dr Doom have become.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

Thor said:


> I wouldn't be so sure. DC is going Marvel so I wouldn't be surprised if their best/most popular villains become anti-villains, like Magneto and Dr Doom have become.



See the only scenario I can even imagine Joker working like that(on any team) is on the Suicide Squad.It wouldn't make sense for him to just up and be heroic like that.
Hes someone who just revels in chaos


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

its amusing to see Matta talk about a fiction that he hasn't embarrassed himself over yet

oh well, its fine to me how pained you are about Vader's ranking

not that anyone really cares since its perfectly objectionable

as for Naruto characters

lol


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Don't bring your jelly to this thread and post something relevant.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Yeah, cool parroting there, I like your "originality'.


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

Vader.

Joker takes over cities

Vader blows up planets with billions of people on it, slaughters hundreds of children, took over galaxy

track record to vader. personality wise, joker, but personality is shit when darth vader has killed billions


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

Someone appears to be mad 

Why don't you try citing something more influential(or important for that matter) then a list from 2003. Not to mention those opinions came well before Lucas got done sufficiently bringing down Vader as a character. 

In Truth a list like that is based on the strength of the performance in a film(being from the american film institute) rather then how they feel about the character as a whole. Its like you think them celebrating James Earl Jones performance means Vader is more relevant as a villain.

To even highlight this fact the Joker made the list but only under Jack Nicholson's performance as the villain rather then the entirety of the characters legacy.


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

The Dark Lord's Conscience.


Alan Moore, is so awesome.

Then again the Killing Joke was good as well.

What if there was a crossover with Joker and Vader, written by Alan Moore.

That shit would be so cash.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

The list isn't from 2003 but I'm not surprised since you've tried to argue about things by name dropping things in the OBD from the past and embarrased yourself with the SasOna style "trolling:

- JJBA
- Star Wars
- Warhammer 40000
- etc

By the way the citation is dated from 2005 and onwards.

Cry more.


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

yeh, joker has jokes.

darth vader has the death star

i think we know who wins


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

To all the Vader Haters out there.
[YOUTUBE]GjySNEVjZsQ[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]AFA-rOls8YA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> The list isn't from 2003 but I'm not surprised since you've tried to argue about things by name dropping things in the OBD from the past and embarrased yourself with the SasOna style "trolling:
> 
> - JJBA
> - Star Wars
> ...


This is the list your talking about


You just sounded even more deluded when you try and rationalize it not coming out in 2003.
The American Film Institute chose this list in 2003. As do they chose a list every year.
They got nominated for an emmy for this particular series in 2004 maybe that's what your talking about.

Fang embarrassing himself in a fervor over Star Wars. priceless.


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## Xelloss (Sep 12, 2011)

@Thor: remain on topic

Joker wins, Vader is classic.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> *snip*



Daizenshuu #2:


So your officially blind as a bat:



> copyright @American Film Institute 2005



Want to try again?


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 12, 2011)

What the fuck is up with the Star Wars hate?

Did George Lucas eat your dogs or something?


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> Daizenshuu #2:
> 
> 
> So your officially blind as a bat:
> ...


*sigh*
If you show me a document that has something like "copyright 2005" at the bottom that just means they published that document(meaning pdf file,internet page,book,flyer,etc) then. 

It has no actual bearing on when the series was actually produced which is 2003 which is when it would mean it would be most relevant up to that point. 

Are you really trying to tell me that if someone from Lucasfilm posted a write up of Star Wars: A new hope on the internet and then put "copyright 2011" at the bottom it means that the film came out in 2011 now?


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Lina Inverse said:


> Did George Lucas eat your dogs or something?



No he ruined his movies.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> *snip*



Cool story with the nonsensical babble. Here's the kicker:

Still wrong.


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## Samavarti (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> Vader.
> 
> Joker takes over cities
> 
> ...



Because the number of murders and his destructive capacity has anything to do with who is better villan, right?


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Lina Inverse said:


> Ruined?**



You haven't bought the entire re-release of the Star Wars saga on blu-ray have you? I have.


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

Samavarti said:


> Because the number of murders and his destructive capacity has anything to do with who is better villan, right?



yes that has everything to do with being a better villian


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Presentation and writing totally don't have anything to do with it.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 12, 2011)

-Get proven 
-deny that you're wrong
-Get proven wrong again
-Start trolling


I really shouldn't have expected maturity out of you this time. Oh well Lesson learned.

Anyway I found the same list on the AFI site and it says "copyright 2011 american film institute", that must mean the list actually just came out this year. amazing.


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## Lina Inverse (Sep 12, 2011)

Thor said:


> You haven't bought the entire re-release of the Star Wars saga on blu-ray have you? I have.



regardless of whether I bought it or not

why say ruined?


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27RVJJfny4I&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> *snip*



"10th Anniversary edition; updated."

lol

Anyway its funny seeing Thor talking about Star Wars in any light if you just search his post history about his feelings on the "OT".

Sure is a lot of backpedaling there buddy.


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## Samavarti (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> yes that has everything to do with being a better villian



So under you logic

Pain > Johan
Superboy Prime > Darth Vader
Aizen > Hannibal Lecter


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

and hitler>hannibal lecter


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

oh and no superboy prime isnt better, darth vader slaughters children, controls a galaxy, blows up planets with billions of people, tortures his own children.


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## Thor (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> oh and no superboy prime isnt better, darth vader slaughters children, controls a galaxy, blows up planets with billions of people, tortures his own children.



Thanos killed half the universe. Murdered his mother by hand, killed all his millions of brothers and sisters apart from one. Tortured his younger brother.

He's a better villain according to your logic.


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## Bungee Gum (Sep 12, 2011)

I have no idea who thanos is, but if i read about him, he has a pretty good track record for being a better villian then DV


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## Whimsy (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> Why? Star Wars has a modern pop-culture impact that has never really rivaled since its legacy on the film/tv and entertainment industry, Vader's lines in TESB are the most parodied as well and his character is still referenced as a villain archtype.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I was talking quality-wise, not pop-cultural impact wise. Obviously he's top 3 in that respect, possibly even number 1.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> and hitler>hannibal lecter



Shut up and get out.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Whimsy said:


> I was talking quality-wise, not pop-cultural impact wise. Obviously he's top 3 in that respect, possibly even number 1.



Quality "wise" goes hand in hand with it. Like I said, there is a reason why his character and personality for one, is parodied so often. You have a black armored, cyborg space psychic samurai who telekintically chokes idiots to death, gives cryptic and prophetic foreshadowing in conversations, and has one of the most recognizable voice actors giving his speech along with his actions in the first place and the latter lore that gives his character even further definition and development. 

Maybe it was the way you worded your earlier post that made me question you back. But yeah, he's a household name for a reason. Hell Star Wars and Empire Strikes back are both contenders for the greatest sci-fi film after Space Odyssey 2001 for more then two decades now. Sometimes even placed up there.


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## Z (Sep 12, 2011)

Joker is the better villain easily. To be honest, I can't really think of a single villain that's better than him.


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

Z said:


> Joker is the better villain easily. To be honest, I can't really think of a single villain that's better than him.



Dio Brando, Iago (William Shakespeare's Othello), Magneto


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## Z (Sep 12, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> Dio Brando, Iago (William Shakespeare's Othello), Magneto



Dio Brando is incredibly overrated imo. I don't even think he's the best villain in his series (Yoshikage Kira is better). Joker has way more to him than Iago does and I prefer Joker over Magneto any day. Especially when you see Magneto's current status.


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## Whimsy (Sep 12, 2011)

Eh, I'd put Dio Brando quite a bit below Vader tbh.

If you trawl through literature you've got a hell of a lot to play with.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Anyway beating the dead horse here but Vader is a legend and a fucking icon.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 12, 2011)

Joker is far better in my opinion. I loved Vader in the original trilogy, but eps. 1, 2, and 3 just turned him into a whiney little priss. The few books of the EU that I've read have portrayed him as jealously pandering for the Emperor's favor. Not cool for supreme villainy.


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## Whimsy (Sep 12, 2011)

@Fang he is indeed.

I'd also put him comfortably above Sidious, as he's got a bit more going for him than manipulative Dark Lord schtick.

And I haven't let the original trilogy interfere with my view of Vader, since I just conveniently block Haden Christiansen out.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 12, 2011)

someone mention iago?

iago is absolutely superb


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> someone mention iago?
> 
> iago is absolutely superb



Indeed, the guy was just brilliant the way he manipulated Othello and everyone else in the play.

And he would have gotten away with it too, had it not been for his wife picking up that one clue. He then proceeded to stab said wife.


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## Abigail (Sep 12, 2011)

Z said:


> Dio Brando is incredibly overrated imo.


 Hey man, fuck yo-





> (Yoshikage Kira is better).



Nevermind. We're cool.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 12, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> Dio Brando, Iago (William Shakespeare's Othello), Magneto



I haven't read Othello since I was in HS.


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> I haven't read Othello since I was in HS.



There was also Edmund from King Lear, great monologue.

Then there was Shylock from Merchant of Venice, he was a truly sympathetic villain.


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## OS (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> oh and no superboy prime isnt better, darth vader slaughters children, controls a galaxy, blows up planets with billions of people, tortures his own children.


That has nothing to do with being a better villain. It's all about being appealing to the audience.


Ben Grimm said:


> Dio Brando, Iago (William Shakespeare's Othello), Magneto





Lucaniel said:


> someone mention iago?
> 
> iago is absolutely superb



I am going to read about him in my Shakespeare class soon. Is he that awesome


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## Lucaniel (Sep 12, 2011)

shakespeare was pretty much a chore i could competently get good grades in but only ever appreciated from a purely linguistic point of view before othello; out of all the shakespeare i've done, iago is by far the most vividly interesting, original and incredibly malicious (note: haven't done titus or some others) character there is, and his manipulative abilities are godly

so, yeah, he is


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## Narcissus (Sep 12, 2011)

The Joker. At his best (when he is really well-written) he is easily one of my favorite villains. His insanity makes him unpredictable and fun to watch, and all in a hilarious manner. Darth Vader is an amazing villain who ranks high up there as well though.


Goova said:


> Vader.
> 
> Joker takes over cities
> 
> ...


Power does not make a good villain. But if you want to use that logic, the Joker conquered the entire universe, destroyed it, and restored it just for fun. lol @ personality being shit.


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## Kind of a big deal (Sep 12, 2011)

Gave it some thought,

Kefka from FF6 is basically like the Joker, but more ... ambitious/driven. To me, it's the greatest villain in (well-known) videogames so far. The mage Rashidi from the Ogre Battle game is my all time number one, but it's probably too obscure to be a serious contender.

Johann and Griffith are better villains as well, the latter is the all-time greatest villain, by the way. Villains with destiny on their side, now that's the type of crap that makes you truly desperate.

Dracula is more iconic and more transcending of fictional universes and media, than the Joker and Darth Vader combined.

Between the two of them, the Joker is the better villain, Darth Vader is a tormented teen who annoys the readers, and a silly old man who becomes a good guy, as well as a villain. Blemishes.


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## Bluebeard (Sep 12, 2011)

I see a lot of Joker wank in this thread.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> Anyway beating the dead horse here but Vader is a legend and a fucking icon.



This is true, but it's wrong to let him coast on just that; if we're talking about something as specific as a character's role as a villain, we should judge them by their actual merits, rather than by their hype or their "O.G." status.


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## Skywalker (Sep 12, 2011)

They are both kickass villains.


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Sep 12, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> This is true, but it's wrong to let him coast on just that; if we're talking about something as specific as a character's role as a villain, we should judge them by their actual merits, rather than by their hype or their "O.G." status.


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 12, 2011)

Nothing about that post was bias. Quit starting shit.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

Of course it wasn't, just objectively crap, Chakra Fro kun.


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> Of course it wasn't, just objectively crap, Chakra Fro kun.



Lets put jelly images as a response to a poster we don't like instead of analyzing his actual posts.

Cool.


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## Fang (Sep 12, 2011)

You seem upset


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## Stunna (Sep 12, 2011)

Goova said:


> Vader blows up planets with billions of people on it,


Vader didn't do that, Tarkin did.



> took over galaxy


Didn't do that either. Sidious did.



> but personality is shit when darth vader has killed billions


Shame he didn't do that.

They're both great villains, though like Nikushimi I use that term somewhat lightly when it comes to Darth Vader. I think because of that, I find him more interesting, even if it was somewhat butchered by the prequel trilogy. For the same reason though, I have to give it to the Clown Prince of Crime himself, the Joker.


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## Glued (Sep 12, 2011)

Darth Vader would like to say something to all the haters, don't be jealous.

[Youtube]dnUHNvEXVXg[/youtube]


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## The810kid (Sep 12, 2011)

I prefer Joker over Vader but never was much of a star wars fans villains I think are in the same discussion with these two as far as quality and popularity is Magneto. Other villains deserve praise popularity or not are Liquid Snake, Revolver Ocelot, Toguro, Sensui, Wrath, Jafar, Scar, Angelus, Holtz from Angel, kuja, Alonzo from Training Day, Mr Burns (depending on his depiction) many heel wrestlers, Nino Brown I could go on.


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## Soledad Eterna (Sep 12, 2011)

Going by the movies, Vader by a landslide. He is just iconic, and has one of the best stories until the prequel decided to ruin that. Neither Heath Ledger or Jack Nicholson just don't compare to James Earl Jones.


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## Darth Nihilus (Sep 12, 2011)

**


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## The810kid (Sep 12, 2011)

Soledad Eterna said:


> Going by the movies, Vader by a landslide. He is just iconic, and has one of the best stories until the prequel decided to ruin that. Neither Heath Ledger or Jack Nicholson just don't compare to James Earl Jones.



You can counter that with the Joker being awesome in countless adaptation while as you said your self Vaders name was ruined in the eys of many fans from the prequels. I've yet to hear any negative feedback on any incarnation on the jokers character.


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 12, 2011)

Fang said:


> You seem upset



_Fang stayin jelly
_
Est. March 2006


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Sep 12, 2011)

The810kid said:


> You can counter that with the Joker being awesome in countless adaptation while as you said your self Vaders name was ruined in the eys of many fans from the prequels. I've yet to hear any negative feedback on any incarnation on the jokers character.



But negative opinions about the Joker aren't all that rare, from people who think he's become a parody of himself out of how over the top some of his evil antics are compared to the past and how it's lame he keeps surviving despite them for the sake of being Batman's greatest villain, and I remember a shitstorm about a Joker story that was supposed to reveal his real past and was perceived as defiling The Killing Joke.


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## Gilgamesh (Sep 13, 2011)

People keep saying Vader was ruined by the prequel trilogy 

The whole point was to show his rise and fall


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## The810kid (Sep 13, 2011)

Charcan said:


> But negative opinions about the Joker aren't all that rare, from people who think he's become a parody of himself out of how over the top some of his evil antics are compared to the past and how it's lame he keeps surviving despite them for the sake of being Batman's greatest villain, and I remember a shitstorm about a Joker story that was supposed to reveal his real past and was perceived as defiling The Killing Joke.



well were they justified arguments or were they just butt hurt fan boys?


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## Fang (Sep 13, 2011)

The810kid said:


> You can counter that with the Joker being awesome in countless adaptation while as you said your self Vaders name was ruined in the eys of many fans from the prequels. I've yet to hear any negative feedback on any incarnation on the jokers character.



No one had a real problem other then harpies complaining about demystifying his character with Jack Lloyd playing a young Anakin and Hayden Christian's atrocious delivery of his lines and "emotions" in Episode II. The only real shit mark was his "NOOOOOOOO" at the end of RoTS.

Given this was a character who would silently brood, that was a pain. But that still doesn't change his iconic status or the fact that he's so well-known and received as villain in pop-culture that psychiatrists and therapists use him in anger management and depression counseling. 

Anyway Revenge of the Sith novelization (directly edited line by line by Lucas in the end) is stated by Stover to be the raw unadulterated adaption of the film and the praise for it is astronomical in the New York Times, especially in regards to the comparison with the film version, which is recognized as part of his film incarnation.

Then you have of course, Vader's own "countless" incarnations in the TCW cartoon, Force Unleashed series, and the rest of EU.



Uncle Phantom said:


> _Fang stayin jelly
> _
> Est. March 2006



Your terrible at this.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Sep 13, 2011)

The810kid said:


> well were they justified arguments or were they just butt hurt fan boys?



From what I've heard of the story, it wasn't unjustified bashing given the shoes it was trying to fill, and not just because the art was fugly compared to Brian Bolland (then again a lot of stuff is fugly compared to Brian Bolland).


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## Fang (Sep 13, 2011)

In fact there's a great comic that details Vader's psyche in Star Wars Tales (Charcan you mentioned interest in SW comics).


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Sep 13, 2011)

I've seen that scene before, actually. But didn't know where it was from.


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## Fang (Sep 13, 2011)

Star Wars Tales, one of the later volumes.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 13, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> shakespeare was pretty much a chore i could competently get good grades in but only ever appreciated from a purely linguistic point of view before othello; out of all the shakespeare i've done, iago is by far the most vividly interesting, original and incredibly malicious (note: haven't done titus or some others) character there is, and his manipulative abilities are godly
> 
> so, yeah, he is



I had to read a bunch of Shakespeare stuff and other works. The other being Oedipus Rex, oh man this story. 

lol, speaking of which, I remembered one time my English teacher had finished a class none too earlier and he was growing weary with those kids and he was like "I feel like Oedipus right now" (meaning the whole wanna gouge his eyes out). One of my friends who was a complete smart ass responded immediately with "you wanna have sex with your *mom!?*" he said that shit so loud the whole class started dying.


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## hojou (Sep 13, 2011)

Dio by far.


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## Majinvergil (Sep 13, 2011)

Darth vader is great, but I got to go with the joker.


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## Tiger (Sep 13, 2011)

The Joker with ease.


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## Stunna (Sep 13, 2011)

Darth Sidious said:


> People keep saying Vader was ruined by the prequel trilogy
> 
> The whole point was to show his rise and fall



It's the fact that the portrayal was so awful. It didn't make him look like a tragic hero; but like a whiny brat who got what was coming to him.


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## Bluebeard (Sep 13, 2011)

^

How?

Besides the narm from the actor, his fucking mom was killed by Tusken Raiders and then he proceeded to slaughter the entire tribe, not to mention the 'help' of Palpatine who had been corrupting him the entire time.

The Jedi Council shut him out.

Padme was pregnant and visions of her death caused him to panic.

Sure the prequels have faults, but I meant shit, stop hating on them.


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## Tiger (Sep 13, 2011)

Bluebeard said:


> ^
> 
> How?
> 
> ...



How many pairs of rose-colored glasses are you wearing, exactly? Saying the prequels had faults is like saying being kicked in the balls is unpleasant. Both are true, but neither statement gets to the real _meat_ of the issue.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 13, 2011)

Bluebeard said:


> ^
> 
> How?
> 
> ...



It's presicely because of the crap ass actor and subpar to bad writing that ruined the character. Hayden was too inept at delivering raw emotion and completely fumbled in the attempt.

Anakin's mother dies in his arms in a tuskan raider camp. Proper response? Breif torment followed by unbridled murderous rage, then on to wallowling in grief before manning up and living to honor her memory. Did he pull it off? Hell no. The entire time he looked like he wanted to go suck his thumb and cry in a corner. Maybe throw up on himself for good measure.

The Council dissed him by not making him a Master when they were more or less forced to add him to their ranks. He didn't do anything to deserve the rank, and he cries because he thinks he deserves special treatment and whines, _whines_, about it. Vader doesn't whine. Vader broods. Subtle difference. Yes I know his opinion of himself was jumped up by Palpatine (which I imagine was the entire point he browbeat them into putting Anakin on the Council in the first place).

The visions of Padme's death wouldn't have happened had he been a good boy. He decided to directly violate one of the tenants of his position. 

None of this gives any reason to sympathize with the character. Had the writing been more polished and they found a _good_ actor to play Anakin, then it might have worked. It just didn't happen.


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## OS (Sep 13, 2011)

So Anikan = Sasuke?


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## Lucaniel (Sep 13, 2011)

i don't factor the prequel trilogy into my opinion on vader because anakin pre-vader is absolutely intolerable and vader is superb to the point where they seem like two completely different characters

so on one hand i get where the 'prequels ruined vader' people are coming from, but i don't sympathise, since that's saying a completely new set of movies ruined a character who had a great portrayal in the old, good ones. to carry that to its logical extreme would be to say the prequels ruined SW, and i refuse to do that, so yeah


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 13, 2011)

Vader in the original trilogy is not all there is to the character though. Even in the original trilogy we got things like Obi Wan talking about how he used to know him and his eventual turn on the emperor which kind of warranted Lucas exploring his origins(to make money more then anything else).

You just have the unfortunate circumstances of the prequel trilogy ruining Vader as a character by turning him into a whiny and entitled asshole rather then any of the things Obi Wan actually talked about in the Original trilogy.

You have the cool, threatening, imposing vision of Vader from the original trilogy and then underneath all that is Anakin the annoying asshole which is the genesis and heart of his character.

Its almost impossible to say that doesn't impact the character at all.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 13, 2011)

the original trilogy stands on its own just fine without the prequels 

Vader isn't even close to ruined at all, it's just typical over-reaction


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## Fang (Sep 13, 2011)

>2011
>anyone giving a damn about Matta's posts

oh OBD


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 13, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> the original trilogy stands on its own just fine without the prequels
> 
> Vader isn't even close to ruined at all, it's just typical over-reaction



"Ruined forever," CD?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 13, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> "Ruined forever," CD?


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 13, 2011)

Oh, I wonder what _that_ was inspired by.


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## OS (Sep 13, 2011)

Such a troll face


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## ctype (Sep 13, 2011)

^It's the perfect.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 17, 2011)

obv The Joker....come on man seriously? Vader is cool and all, but he's more of just a generic monster more than anything.

The Joker is fiendish in so many different canons in Batman. In Arkum Asylum the video game, the comics, the one shots like "The Killing Joke", the animated shows, the 89 and 2008 movies and even the live action show from the 70s. That guy has so much material.

I don't get how someone can say that Vader is a better villain. Vader is one of the best movie villains, but honestly I can't think of many great movie villains off the top of my head.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2011)

"Generic movie monster"

Fucking nope


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## Lucaniel (Sep 17, 2011)

> Vader is cool and all, but he's more of just a generic monster more than anything.



that boneheaded oversimplification could just as easily apply to the joker


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## OS (Sep 17, 2011)

This thread


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## Blade (Sep 17, 2011)

A 'generic movie monster' who is an example of a classic good villain for many decades now.


Lol.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 17, 2011)

what does 'generic movie monster' even mean? 

when you have 'movie monsters' as varied as freddy kreuger, the xenomorphs, hannibal lecter, nurse ratched etc. how can you even have a definition of a 'generic movie monster'?

that's like saying 'generic book plot'; there isn't one


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2011)

its funny because I don't even get what the guy is saying about being a "film" villain is somehow lower then being a "comic" villain.


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## Glued (Sep 17, 2011)

Alan Moore, The Dark Lord's Conscience, read it.


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> Alan Moore, The Dark Lord's Conscience, read it.



Empire is great, as well as Dark Times.


*Spoiler*: __


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## Abarekiller (Sep 17, 2011)

"No Joker, I am your father."

For anyone who doesn't get the joke look up who Joker's voice actor was for TAS, AA, and JLA.

As for who's the better villain, Vader, although Joker does give him a run for his money.


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## Glued (Sep 17, 2011)

The most hilarious part is the guy who played joker's voice actor also played the role of Ozai, an evil tyrant and abusive father


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## Ulti (Sep 17, 2011)

Gives a new meaning to Yoda's speech in episode II I think it was?


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## SHM (Sep 20, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Can you name better villains?



*G*enetic *L*ifeform *a*nd *D*isc *O*perating *S*ystem

Nuff said.


Another one who is not better perse, but close(and very iconic IMO), is the *original* Sephiroth. You know, before the Compilation, Kingdom-Hearts, and Dissidia ruined him.


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 20, 2011)

What does Darth Vader bring to the table?

The Joker is iconic in the fact that he is still to this day a breath of fresh air when compared to other villains. He is genuinely entertaining and fun to read/watch despite people knowing ahead of time what he is all about.

What makes DV such a great movie villian other than the fact that he is a major antagonist in a very popular fictional universe?


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## Platinum (Sep 20, 2011)

SHM said:


> Another one who is not better perse, but close(and very iconic IMO), is the *original* Sephiroth. You know, before the Compilation, Kingdom-Hearts, and Dissidia ruined him.



.

Sephiroth is nowhere near the joker or vader.


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## Aokiji (Sep 20, 2011)

Original Sin said:


> Is is the original trilogy that much better?



Where is that Galactic Ryoma gif when I need it...


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## Violent by Design (Sep 20, 2011)

"What makes DV such a great movie villian other than the fact that he is a major antagonist in a very popular fictional universe?"


This is essentially where I was getting at. I have no idea why so many people are taking offense in the idea that the Joker is a better villain than Darth Vader. As for Vader being "iconic", I don't really see what relevance that has. They're both icons, and Elmer Fudd is iconic too, doesn't mean he's a terrifying villain.


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## SHM (Sep 20, 2011)

Platinum said:


> .
> 
> Sephiroth is nowhere near the joker or vader.



Ah, opinions...

But anyway, great part of Joker and Vader's popularity today, is due to nostalgia, I think.
In my opinion, there are villains/antagonists deserving of the same praise as them, like the first one mentioned in my previous post.


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## Stunna (Sep 20, 2011)

Was Vader supposed to be terrifying? He's more imposing and threatening that scary. Everything from his appearance to his voice to his powers makes him appear to be a BAMF.


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2011)

Violent By Design said:


> "What makes DV such a great movie villian other than the fact that he is a major antagonist in a very popular fictional universe?"
> 
> 
> This is essentially where I was getting at. I have no idea why so many people are taking offense in the idea that the Joker is a better villain than Darth Vader. As for Vader being "iconic", I don't really see what relevance that has. They're both icons, and Elmer Fudd is iconic too, doesn't mean he's a terrifying villain.





SHM said:


> Ah, opinions...
> 
> But anyway, great part of Joker and Vader's popularity today, is due to nostalgia, I think.
> In my opinion, there are villains/antagonists deserving of the same praise as them, like the first one mentioned in my previous post.


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 20, 2011)

There was nothing in Violent by Design posts that wasn't valid. Stop resorting to pictures and explain what makes DV so special.

We know he plays a huge role in SW. What else about Vader makes him one of the greatest villains of all time? 

Being apart of a popular universe is not enough to make someone a candidate for the G.O.A.T title. It just isn't.


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2011)




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## Stunna (Sep 20, 2011)

Stunna said:


> Was Vader supposed to be terrifying? He's more imposing and threatening that scary. Everything from his appearance to his voice to his powers makes him appear to be a BAMF.


**


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## SHM (Sep 20, 2011)

You never played the Portal games, did you?


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2011)

You never watched SW did you?


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 20, 2011)

Fang said:


> You never watched SW did you?



Probably not as much as you which is why you need to explain Darth Vader's supposed greatness as a villain beyond his popularity as a character.


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2011)




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## Solrac (Sep 20, 2011)

Many from mythology, folklore, and early modern literature (like shakespeare for instance)?


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## Violent by Design (Sep 20, 2011)

Stunna said:


> **



 sure, what ever you would like to call it. the point is he is not all that interesting. he is more flash than substance is what I am getting at. Vader is my favorite character from Star Wars, but lets be real here, none of the characters in the original trilogy are written particularly well.

inb4 a japanese drawing of a random white guy from gundam spitting out blood.


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## Es (Sep 20, 2011)

Violent By Design said:


> sure, what ever you would like to call it. the point is he is not all that interesting. he is more flash than substance is what I am getting at. Vader is my favorite character from Star Wars, but lets be real here, none of the characters in the original trilogy are written particularly well.
> 
> inb4 a japanese drawing of a random white guy from gundam spitting out blood.



Have you read any of the EU material? At all dude?`


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## Violent by Design (Sep 20, 2011)

Es said:


> Have you read any of the EU material? At all dude?`



I should have clarified that I'm basing my opinion on Vader largely on the original movie trilogy.

I have read some of the EU material, but nothing on Vader. (ie, old republic and stuff that focused on Anakin).


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## Fang (Sep 20, 2011)

What makes it strange when you compare Vader to "generic movie monster" comment really fucking weird as well as completely inane and thrown away by anyone with objectivity in this thread. I already mentioned it before, psychiatrists and psychologists use him as an example for anger related courses, his theme, style, and character is lauded as still in the top 5 of pop culture baddies for almost four decades and no one has ever used the excuse of "he's from SW" as the reason why he constantly is ranked the same by film critics, directors, other actors, writers, and fans the same way.

Go ahead, I fucking dare you to find a columnist or film critic who contests Vader's popularity has to do with a nostalgia factor or the reception of SW without bringing up his own strength. You will never find a statement of that.

And I have no idea how you can have any exposure to EU but never once read any Vader centric novel or comic. But the rest of your badly put together critique is equally laughable given your earlier statements. About as valid as anything Matta Clatta or Chakra Fro have said for that matter in this thread with their bad trolling.



Violent By Design said:


> sure, what ever you would like to call it. the point is he is not all that interesting. he is more flash than substance is what I am getting at. Vader is my favorite character from Star Wars, but lets be real here, none of the characters in the original trilogy are written particularly well.



Let's be honest here saying "Vader is my favorite character" bullshit defense is untrue given all of your prior posts; "Generic movie monster, badly written, only good for nostalgia shitick". And you have no idea what your talking about. Flash and no substance? Magento in the Marvel Movies is "all flash and style" and no substance. Vader from the get-go was portrayed as the man behind the Iron Mask who'll resort to physical intimidation or violence as much as he does with out-maneuvering or cornering others with his coercion in his dialogue.

So yeah, "badly written" my ass.



> inb4 a japanese drawing of a random white guy from gundam spitting out blood.



>LotGH
>Gundam


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## Soledad Eterna (Sep 21, 2011)

SW simply wouldn't have been the same without Darth Vader. He is what contributed to it's success.


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## sonic546 (Sep 21, 2011)

Violent By Design said:


> "What makes DV such a great movie villian other than the fact that he is a major antagonist in a very popular fictional universe?"
> 
> 
> This is essentially where I was getting at. I have no idea why so many people are taking offense in the idea that the Joker is a better villain than Darth Vader. As for Vader being "iconic", I don't really see what relevance that has. They're both icons, and Elmer Fudd is iconic too, doesn't mean he's a terrifying villain.



 What is this I don't even...


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 21, 2011)

Fang said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And Fang leaves nothing for the rest of us to use.

Seriously.  Massive Vader jelly here.


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## sonic546 (Sep 21, 2011)

Vader finds their jelly disturbing.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 21, 2011)

Unfortunately, jelly by its very nature cannot be choked into submission.


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## sonic546 (Sep 21, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Unfortunately, jelly by its very nature cannot be choked into submission.



It can, however, be vaporized into nothingness.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-qL-OKjRoNo&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]


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