# Hashirama is still very much top tier



## Icegaze (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama faces these 2 opponents 1 on 1 
location: barren land 
distance: 50m 
knowledge: none 
*
hashirama vs current sasuke-* before you say sasuke stomps please explain how he kills hashirama. tsunade who is fodder level healer by comparison survived being split in half. sakura survived black rod through tsunade technique, the black rod>>jinton. just so you get an idea. 

Also budda is still very much in competition with current sasuke susanoo. Please note kyuubi firing off 9 or more bijuudama with susanoo armor was still pawned by budda. and put to sleep. 

*Hashirama vs current naruto* - this is actually the only battle wear i would say hashirama looses quite decisively. FRS bijuudama multiple times isnt something  hashirama can cope with especially because naruto can fire those off with usual ease

Sasuke however doesnt look like he can actually kill hashirama.


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2014)

they both stomps, neg difficult. No explanation needed.


> tsunade who is fodder level healer by comparison



stop, just stop...


----------



## Katou (May 26, 2014)

They Stomp . .


*Spoiler*: _Explanation_ 



 I don't have it . .


----------



## Ghost (May 26, 2014)

Sasuke and Naruto both rape Hashirama. Hashi might be top tier but rivals are god tier.


----------



## ARGUS (May 26, 2014)

No one bar Rikudos Family, Juubi Jins,, and Naruto/Sasuke can beat Hashirama,,,,
if we restrict the god tiers, then yes he is at the peak of Top Tiers,,,
Current Naruto however nukes him off the planet 
and Current Sasuke butchers him,,,


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> No one bar Rikudos Family, Juubi Jins,, and Naruto/Sasuke can beat Hashirama,,,,
> if we restrict the god tiers, then yes he is at the peak of Top Tiers,,,
> Current Naruto however nukes him off the planet
> and Current Sasuke butchers him,,,



Gai fodder stomps with 8 gates
(probably Dai with 8gates as well)

Hiruzen's clone solo'd him as well as far as I remember. In addition to those fodders who killed him in the first war. @>@
Not to mention Kabuto, and Oro with their ET, and BM Minato...etc U_U

so, you sir, are wrong. U_U


----------



## Kazekage94 (May 26, 2014)

@ICEGAZE IT'S BEEN A WHILE DUDE!

P.S. They stomp sorry. I love Hashirama but they surpassed him.


----------



## Ersa (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama just doesn't try and bends over.

He's not facing guys who can match Juubi Jin speeds and casually level islands.


----------



## Kyuuzen (May 26, 2014)

Sasuke cuts Hashirama in half.

Naruto nukes him with Bijuu Bomb Rasen Shuriken.

gg.


----------



## Cognitios (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama loses, no diff.
If he got a direct hit while with buddha I can imagine Naruto and Sasuke getting some bruises however. Sasuke might come out bleeding.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (May 26, 2014)

I actually agree that Sasuke's Susano'o probably is on the same level as SM Shinsenjuu for destructive capacity and durability, but it is faster and more maneuverable and can fly so Sasuke wins that way and yeah, Susano'o sword strikes are tearing Hasharima into such tiny pieces he isn't healing.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 26, 2014)

It's cute that you actually think Hashirama stands any sort of chance against these two.


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2014)

Yeah to be perfectly honest I still haven't seen anything from Naruto or Sasuke that puts them above Hashirama. I'm sure they are above him, because Naruto was stated to have surpassed the Hokages after S06P power up, but I don't think we've seen how they are above Hashirama and EMS-Madara just yet, as they haven't use their biggest moves (no I don't think FRS-Bijuu-Dama is their biggest move). 

I mean from what I can tell Hashirama can hand out chakra just like Naruto and can even hand out Sage-Chakra. Naruto is better now in terms of support with magic sailor-moon hand that can heal anything, but It's not like Hashirama falls tragically behind.

In terms of combat, all of Naruto's new Rasengan Variants are neat and all, but to me none of them are above the level of Senpo ShinSuusenju, even 6 Bijuu Bomb FRS, considering how Senpo Shin Suusenju was repelling dozens of Kyuubi-Susano'o Bijuu Bombs and still blew away P-Susnao'o armor. 

And no I haven't seen anything from Sasuke yet that suggests he's above EMS-Madara. Sasuke P-Susano'o was impressive, but still hasn't shown me anything quite on the "level" of P-Susano'o+Kyuubi fusion. 

I really don't think the gap is as massive between Hashirama and those 2 as people believe it to be.


----------



## Ghost (May 26, 2014)

^ Naruto's Ninjutsu shits on Hashi's Mokuton defense and Sasuke just sliced up some meteors. Both are also faster than Hashirama.


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah to be perfectly honest I still haven't seen anything from Naruto or Sasuke that puts them above Hashirama. I'm sure they are above him, because Naruto was stated to have surpassed the Hokages after S06P power up, but I don't think we've seen how they are above Hashirama and EMS-Madara just yet, as they haven't use their biggest moves (no I don't think FRS-Bijuu-Dama is their biggest move).
> 
> I mean from what I can tell Hashirama can hand out chakra just like Naruto and can even hand out Sage-Chakra. Naruto is better now in terms of support with magic sailor-moon hand that can heal anything, but It's not like Hashirama falls tragically behind.
> 
> ...



are you serious? 
I can understand the thing about Sasuke (even though he will probably cut Hashirama in half like he did to madara)
but to think Hashi's Buddha can tank Naruto's BDFRS! and not one but all 6???


----------



## Krippy (May 26, 2014)

Sasuke's Susanoo was casually dicing meteors the size of large islands. The rubble dwarfed multiple mountain ranges. Shinsuusenju isnt even as large as the tree stump. Sasuke mulches it and turns it into firewood.

Naruto nuked several of the same meteors. 1 BRS ends him.

It doesn't matter though, he gets blitzed and julienne'd or gets his neck snapped before he realizes he's in a fight.

I love Shodai but he stands absolutely no chance against these two. Anybody who thinks he is remotely comparable to the rivals now is delusional.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

if we go by feats, then naruto and sasuke havent shown anything out of hashiramas realm.

narutos best feat is using 6 bijudama frs at once.

*Spoiler*: __ 








hashirama countered a dozen PS bladed bijudamas.



the PS blade has better cutting feats than rasenshuriken and the bijudamas that madara used were bigger than the ones that naruto used that were at most, just bigger than his own body.


sasukes PS is only about as big as madaras. any scenario that people try to say that sasukes PS will zoom around shinsuusenju with hashirama never being able to catch it is pure nonsense.

the rocks that formed the meteors that sasuke cut were as big as a mountain range individually.


 the shockwave from madaras PS has already gone through the range of a mountain range in its entirety. there is no difference in power. 

you could *easily* fit multiple mountains in the space between the meteor and the mountains that PS slashed. the area that madaras PS slash reached is bigger than the pieces of rock that fell of from one of juubi jin madaras meteors.

sasuke didnt slice apart any of the meteors with a single slash. it took multiple slashes to successfully slice apart a single meteor. sasuke did nothing that madara couldnt.

notice how sasuke is swinging both of his swords on this page.

sasukes susano fails to match shinsuusenju in power, and it gets smashed, just like madaras.


----------



## Trojan (May 26, 2014)

Cool story. 

Naruto in base cut the Tree with his YRS, which is weaker than one of the BDFRS. 
comparing Naruto's attack to Madara's is laughable. 

Naruto in base is more than enough to shit on Hashirama completely. He's way out of level.


----------



## Icegaze (May 26, 2014)

saikyou said:


> ^ Naruto's Ninjutsu shits on Hashi's Mokuton defense and Sasuke just sliced up some meteors. Both are also faster than Hashirama.



if the bar your setting is based on what naruto and sasuke did to the meteors then sorry but its nothing hashirama could not replicate. Madara didnt seem remotely impressed with what naruto or sasuke did. Usually when something is new or unseen kishi makes sure to state it. 
budda could deal with those meteors. 

As for sasuke susanoo>>budda well you people are on a hype. It will pass. sasuke susanoo can fly thats about the only thing it has shown that madara PS hasnt. Its feats arent far above it. And those meteors are about the size of budaa especially if we take into account that budda was several times larger than 100% kyuubi and also much larger than PS susanoo. 

Sasuke's has been stated to be bigger in any way at all. 

The new feats from sasuke and naruto seemed to impress no one worth while. If it was truly outstanding tobirama, hashirama or madara would have mentioned it.


----------



## rubberguy (May 26, 2014)

This thread and some those responses.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama gets stomped just like anyone in else not in the god tiers, it's true that he's in the top tier though


----------



## Icegaze (May 26, 2014)

^ Again dont see how 
nothing they have shown is above what hashirama can deal with. also someone note he is like super tsunade on mokuton. How do u even kill that.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Nothing they've shown is above him? really?

in the last chapter Sauce cut through the gigantic Chikaku Tensei which dwarfs mountains and is seen compared to the planet's curvature
hold back

Let's just use the most recent chapter for Naruto which has him spamming BB Rasenshurikens that dwarf said Chikaku Tensei
hold back


----------



## richard lewis (May 26, 2014)

First off sasuke is quick enough to outright blitz madara, I don't see why he cant do the same to hashirama and take his head off b4 hashi even gets a chance to summon the buddah. But even if he could survive long enough to enter SM and prep his buddah sasuke's PS can fly, that alone gives him a massive advantage here. He can fly out of hashi's rang and bombard with with amaterasu, then sasuke's PS can proceed to hack up the scraps that remain. 

I just don't see how hashi is even remotely close to beating sasuke at this point?


----------



## Bonly (May 26, 2014)

Hashi gets raped by both, that much is quite obvious by now. But that doesn't mean he's any less top tier then he already was, he just has a few more people ahead of him now.


----------



## SSMG (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama is fodder to people like juubito.. dont put this evil on him.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Current Naruto and Sasuke both destroy him. Current Naruto's clone could probably beat him. All of hashirama's attacks, the gates, wood dragon, flower world are ineffective. Nothing bar SS is hurting Naruto since the gou dama's negate ninjutsu. But SS is instantly cut in half with YRS which obliterates hashirama as well. Neg-low diff win for Naruto. Sasuke was slicing up large island sized meteors casually. He's also extremely faster than hashirama. He could probably just casually blitz him straight out.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 26, 2014)

richard lewis said:


> First off sasuke is quick enough to outright blitz madara, I don't see why he cant do the same to hashirama and take his head off b4 hashi even gets a chance to summon the buddah. But even if he could survive long enough to enter SM and prep his buddah sasuke's PS can fly, that alone gives him a massive advantage here. He can fly out of hashi's rang and bombard with with amaterasu, then sasuke's PS can proceed to hack up the scraps that remain.
> 
> *I just don't see how hashi is even remotely close to beating sasuke at this point?*



He isn't. He's not beating Naruto or Sasuke at this point. You've got people wanking Hashirama while downplaying Naruto and Sasuke. When Hashirama can split meteors in which the fragments of said meteors were dwarfing mountain ranges then we can talk. When Hashirama can outright obliterate meteors in which the fragments of said meteors were dwarfing mountain ranges then we can talk. Sasuke's PS would literally fly circles around Shinsuusenju. 

It's laughable that some people actually believe Hashirama stands any sort of chance against two shinobi who're capable of fighting a Juubi Jinchuuriki with two rinnegan. Not to mention both are a fuck ton faster than him. Hell, if anything Sasuke uses his new rinnegan jutsu at the start and puts a sword through Hashirama's chest.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors. 

hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.

im not sure what the hype is about. naruto combined his rasenshuriken with standard bijudama from 50% kurama and destroyed madaras meteors. the bijudama were only significantly above naruto in size.

if you are saying that naruto is above hashirama because of those bijudama, then by extension you would also be claiming that yin kurama is above hashirama since the bijudama that naruto threw were his.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors.
> 
> hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.
> 
> ...


A standard TBB is only a little above mountain lvl. The mere rubble from those meteors were dwarfing entire mountain ranges completely. The blast from Naruto's TBB's were larger than those meteors. Pretty sure neither 50% kurama or Hashirama are near that lvl. There's also the fact that Naruto cut the god tree in half with a weaker attack. Use common sense dude. Every single one of Naruto's attack are powered by the senjutsu of the SO6P.


----------



## SSMG (May 26, 2014)

@Shinobi no Kami The bijuudamarasenshuriken has a bigger AoE than both madaras PS kurama and hashiramas wood buddha combined. Its clearly on another level.

Naruto has all the beast power within him and already showed he can access their power so thats your assumption that naruto is only grtting the bijuu damma energy from kurama who is about 1/10th the power he has...


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors.
> 
> hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.
> 
> ...



This is coming from the same guy who thinks Madara as a Juubi Jinchuuriki is still weaker than Hashirama.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors.
> 
> hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.
> 
> ...



This entire statement absolutely reeks of cluelessness.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> This is coming from the same guy who thinks Madara as a Juubi Jinchuuriki is still weaker than Hashirama.


initial juubi jin madara, not the current one with a double rinnegan. even if i did say that, that has no bearing on this thread.
you posted this knowing that it wasnt relevant in any way whatsoever.


MusubiKazesaru said:


> This entire statement absolutely reeks of cluelessness.


50% kurama provided naruto with the bijudama that destroyed madaras meteors. if people say that naruto is above hashirama because of that, then 50% kurama is above hashirama since he can utilize the same bijudama.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> initial juubi jin madara, not the current one with a double rinnegan. even if i did say that, that has no bearing on this thread.
> you posted this knowing that it wasnt relevant in any way whatsoever.
> 
> 50% kurama provided naruto with the bijudama that destroyed madaras meteors. if people say that naruto is above hashirama because of that, then 50% kurama is above hashirama since he can utilize the same bijudama.



He's not even above that version. Madara as a juubi jinchuuriki is significantly above Obito who was capable of generating 4 tbb that would be around the same level (likely significantly stronger) than the one the 2nd form Juubi threw out that absolutely dwarfs anything Hashirama can bring to the table. And you've proven my point. You're not worth a debate as it's not worth taking you seriously.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> He's not even above that version.  And you've proven my point. You're not worth a debate as it's not worth taking you seriously.



"you arent worth debating with because you dont blindly agree with the majority."

ok, i get the point.


----------



## SSMG (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> initial juubi jin madara, not the current one with a double rinnegan. even if i did say that, that has no bearing on this thread.
> you posted this knowing that it wasnt relevant in any way whatsoever.
> 
> 50% kurama provided naruto with the bijudama that destroyed madaras meteors. if people say that naruto is above hashirama because of that, then 50% kurama is above hashirama since he can utilize the same bijudama.



Next time read all the replies towars you.. ive already addressed why your assumption that only kurama powers his bijuudama is incorrect.


----------



## Jagger (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama is top-tier.

However, both Naruto and Sasuke are more powerful than that. It is true both Sasuke's PS and Naruto's BDRS have shown AoE similar to Hashirama's Shinsuusenju, but that's not the fullest extent of their power. 

While Sasuke's PS can make the same amount of damage as Shinsuusenju, it lacks mobility, versatility, speed, among other things. 

Naruto hasn't even used his giant chakra avatar in the first place. There's still a lot to shown from them. The battle is far from over and, from what it's been implied, a new villain is going to appear, so they will most likely get stronger to beat him/her.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> "you arent worth debating with because you dont blindly agree with the majority."
> 
> ok, i get the point.



More like you're not worth taking seriously because you're incapable of actually reading and understanding the manga. Instead you simply throw out mindless wank.


----------



## Kyu (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama cock suckers still going strong I see.

Sharinnegan Sasuke casually cuts him in half.

RSM Naruto's clone smacks Hashirama around like a cheap hooker.


----------



## Ether (May 26, 2014)

@OP- How would Sasuke not stomp? He has feats with his Sharinnegan of telporting, switching, keeping pace with Juubidara post tree absorption. He has Inton that damages Juubidara.
 He also moved his flying perfect susnoo'o at extremely fast speeds to protect Naruto and co.from I.T.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> A standard TBB is only a little above mountain lvl. The mere rubble from those meteors were dwarfing entire mountain ranges completely. The blast from Naruto's TBB's were larger than those meteors. Pretty sure neither 50% kurama or Hashirama are near that lvl. There's also the fact that Naruto cut the god tree in half with a weaker attack. Use common sense dude. Every single one of Naruto's attack are powered by the senjutsu of the SO6P.


how is 50% kurama not near that level when he created the bijudama that naruto threw?


SSMG said:


> @Shinobi no Kami The bijuudamarasenshuriken has a bigger AoE than both madaras PS kurama and hashiramas wood buddha combined. Its clearly on another level.
> 
> Naruto has all the beast power within him and already showed he can access their power so thats your assumption that naruto is only grtting the bijuu damma energy from kurama who is about 1/10th the power he has...


naruto asked kurama to form the bijudama and kurama complied. there is no need for your speculation.


----------



## SSMG (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> how is 50% kurama not near that level when he created the bijudama that naruto threw?
> 
> naruto asked kurama to form the bijudama and kurama complied. there is no need for your speculation.



Okay well nvm then.


----------



## SSMG (May 26, 2014)

But still the expolsion from that one attack was bigger than the combined destruction of madaras. dozen bijju bombs and the giant buddha palms.. so maybe its due to narutos control or the fact that he fuses two high levek techniques.. but one blast from tjat is better than hashiramas and madaras combined feat.


----------



## ueharakk (May 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> hashirama vs current sasuke-[/B] before you say sasuke stomps please explain how he kills hashirama. tsunade who is fodder level healer by comparison survived being split in half. sakura survived black rod through tsunade technique, the black rod>>jinton. just so you get an idea.
> 
> Also budda is still very much in competition with current sasuke susanoo. Please note kyuubi firing off 9 or more bijuudama with susanoo armor was still pawned by budda. and put to sleep.


Sasuke's PS >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Madara's PS as Sasuke's sword swings were able to generate enough power to slice a multi-mountainrange sized CT in half.  CT are a lot more durable than mountains since they are so compact, Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu is no where near that size, it gets slicing in half and into bits.

If hashirama can survive being cut in half, then sasuke just slices him into quarters or cuts his head off, tsunade was just lucky that madara let her live so she could eventually pull herself back together.





Icegaze said:


> *Hashirama vs current naruto* - this is actually the only battle wear i would say hashirama looses quite decisively. FRS bijuudama multiple times isnt something  hashirama can cope with especially because naruto can fire those off with usual ease.


YRS cut through the shinjuu and kept going, just one of those eliminates all of hashirama's strongest techniques and BDFRS is even more powerful than that.  It only takes one to kill hashi unless he himself is able to get away from the massive AoE.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors.
> 
> hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.
> 
> ...


By that logic, son goku >> shinjuu since naruto casually cuts the shinjuu in half while damaging madara by using son goku's power.  Anyone and everyone who looks at the feats objectively will realize that like the difference between a normal rasengan and a FRS, or raw youton and a youton rasenshuriken, the difference between a bijuudama and a bijuudama rasenshuriken is measured in magnitudes.

And even looking at the destructive feats, Chibaku tenseis are very durable.  A KN6 bijuudama which destroyed a large portion of konoha barely did anything against pain's version, yet a single bijuudama rasenshuriken was more than enough to not just bust, but completely vaporize an entire chibaku tensei, each of which *rivaled this crater in size*.  Nothing in Hashirama's arsenal survives even a youton rasenshuriken since he has nothing as large or as durable as the shinjuu,


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> how is 50% kurama not near that level when he created the bijudama that naruto threw?


 seems like you didn't read my entire post 


> A standard TBB is only a little above mountain lvl. The mere rubble from those meteors were dwarfing entire mountain ranges completely. The blast from Naruto's TBB's were larger than those meteors. Pretty sure neither 50% kurama or Hashirama are near that lvl. There's also the fact that Naruto cut the god tree in half with a weaker attack. Use common sense dude. *Every single one of Naruto's attack are powered by the senjutsu of the SO6P.*


Btw if 50% kurama's standard TBB was at that lvl then he would stomp hashirama with hardly any difficulty.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> seems like you didn't read my entire post
> Btw if 50% kurama's standard TBB was at that lvl then he would stomp hashirama with hardly anything difficulty.



im not sure where you are getting this nonsense from. kuramas bijudama is just that. a bijudama from kurama. the bijus attacks are separate from narutos own. inb4 shukaku argument.

the fact that kurama cant defeat hashirama is a testament to his power. kuramas bijudama are the same level as naruto has shown and that cant defeat hashirama.


----------



## LostSelf (May 26, 2014)

You don't need to see anything claiming it.

Naruto and Sasuke are Juubidara's level, who is above Juubito, who was said to be stronger than Hashirama.

Yeah, they are confortably above him.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not sure where you are getting this nonsense from. kuramas bijudama is just that. a bijudama from kurama. the bijus attacks are separate from narutos own.


Lol so Yonbi's power by itself is what destroyed the god tree? The fact that the attacks are combined with naruto's rasenshuriken proves that it's not only the power of the bijuus that naruto is using.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Lol so Yonbi's power by itself is what destroyed the god tree? The fact that the attacks are combined with naruto's rasenshuriken proves that it's not only the power of the bijuus that naruto is using.



the yonbis power only served as the center of the rasenshuriken. the actual blades were powered by narutos own chakra and the six paths senjutsu.

what you need to do is not use fallacious comparisons. a tbb rasenshuriken is different than a yoton rasenshuriken.

the explosion that destroyed madaras meteors was purely kuramas doing.


the rasenshurikens served little purpose in the attack other than making naruto able to throw the attack after forming it.

as seen, the bijudama are about to explode before the attack even makes contact with madaras meteors. the rasenshuriken is still surrounding the ball in the form of blades.


----------



## ueharakk (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the yonbis power only served as the center of the rasenshuriken. the actual blades were powered by narutos own chakra and the six paths senjutsu.
> 
> what you need to do is not use fallacious comparisons. a tbb rasenshuriken is different than a yoton rasenshuriken.
> 
> ...





you've posted absolutely nothing to suggest that a bijuudama rasenshuriken = a bijuudama of the same size.  Every single time something is shape manipulated into a rasenshuriken, the attack power gets increased by magnitudes, why would bijuudama rasenshuriken be any different?

The rasenshurikens exploding before the attack makes contact with madara's meteors is conclusive proof that they aren't just throwable bijuudamas as bijuudama's don't detonate on the user's command, only rasenshurikens do.  FRS can also explode without the shuriken blades doing anything, yet does the wind sphere have equal power to a rasengan of the same size?  Obviously not.

Finally, compare the bijuudama rasenshurikens to their bijuudama counterpart and you'll see that the BDRS far outclass a bijuudama of the same size as the rasenshurikens are only bijuusized (as Sasuke's PS is only bijuusized) yet they produce a blast that has far greater scale and concentration than a TBB that's many times the size of Gedo mazou which is larger than a tailed beast.

The very fact that a single BDRS produces a blast far larger than what Bee and BM Narutos MAXIMUM bijuudama could do is conclusive and compelling proof that yin Kurama isn't capable of anything close to a BDRS.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

You do know the Rasenshuriken expands when it hits just like a BB does right?


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the yonbis power only served as the center of the rasenshuriken. the actual blades were powered by narutos own chakra and the six paths senjutsu.
> 
> 
> what you need to do is not use fallacious comparisons. a tbb rasenshuriken is different than a yoton rasenshuriken.
> ...


You're making baseless assumptions again. Naruto is combining senjutsu with the power of the bijuus. The SO6P senjutsu powers up every single one of Naruto's attacks. What don't you get about this?  Are you seriously trying to say that 50% kurama's standard TBB can destroy current madara's meteors? Last time i checked those TBB's were only destroying mountains. The rubble from that attack were dwarfing entire mountain ranges. Again if 50% kurama WITHOUT THE SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS SENJUTSU was capable of that he would have been able to casually beat hashirama. But he couldn't right?


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> you've posted absolutely nothing to suggest that a bijuudama rasenshuriken = a bijuudama of the same size.  *Every single time something is shape manipulated into a rasenshuriken, the attack power gets increased by magnitudes*, why would bijuudama rasenshuriken be any different?


post these examples just for a frame of reference.


> The rasenshurikens exploding before the attack makes contact with madara's meteors is conclusive proof that they aren't just throwable bijuudamas as *bijuudama's don't detonate on the user's command*, only rasenshurikens do.


they did in this case. 


> Finally, compare the bijuudama rasenshurikens to their bijuudama counterpart and you'll see that the BDRS far outclass a bijuudama of the same size as the rasenshurikens are only bijuusized (as Sasuke's PS is only bijuusized) yet they produce a blast that has far greater scale and concentration than a TBB that's many times the size of Gedo mazou which is larger than a tailed beast.


narutos tbb RS are only significantly larger than his own body.


> The very fact that a single BDRS produces a blast far larger than what Bee and BM Narutos MAXIMUM bijuudama could do is conclusive and compelling proof that yin Kurama isn't capable of anything close to a BDRS.


im not seeing how this is accurate.


MusubiKazesaru said:


> You do know the Rasenshuriken expands when it hits just like a BB does right?



um, no. the sphere in the center detonates, which is a bijudama in this case. the blades in the technique create the tiny wind needles. 
the wind blades were simply destroyed by the bijudamas explosion in this case.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> You're making baseless assumptions again. Naruto is combining senjutsu with the power of the bijuus. The SO6P senjutsu powers up every single one of Naruto's attacks. What don't you get about this?  Are you seriously trying to say that 50% kurama's standard TBB can destroy current madara's meteors? Last time i checked those TBB's were only destroying mountains. The rubble from that attack were dwarfing entire mountain ranges. Again if 50% kurama WITHOUT THE SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS SENJUTSU was capable of that he would have been able to casually beat hashirama. But he couldn't right?



im not the one making baseless assumptions. you are assuming that narutos senjutsu is somehow fusing with the bijus attacks. the only case where naruto has directly fused his six paths senjutsu with chakra from a biju was when he used the magnet rasengan with shukakus chakra.

when yoton rasenshuriken was used, he just used his senjutsu to form wind blades around the yonbis attack.
with bijudama, naruto simply formed blades around bijudama that kurama himself formed.

50% kurama is capable of doing what naruto did, and he still cannot defeat hashirama.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not the one making baseless assumptions. you are assuming that narutos senjutsu is somehow fusing with the bijus attacks. the only case where naruto has directly fused his six paths senjutsu with chakra from a biju was when he used the magnet rasengan with shukakus chakra.
> 
> when yoton rasenshuriken was used, he just used his senjutsu to form wind blades around the yonbis attack.
> with bijudama, naruto simply formed blades around bijudama that kurama himself formed.
> ...



You're contradicting yourself *Yoton* Rasenshuriken had wind blades? lol. There's a difference between Fuuton and Yoton in the first place

Kurama at full power is somewhat below BM Naruto, Naruto merely has the Bijuu aiding him and allowing him to easily make attacks like Yoton Rasenshuriken, Tanuki Rasenshuriken, and BB Rasenshuriken, Kurama is the one he's most familiar with and has the strongest BB so he made a Rasenshuriken out of a BB, in a addition he's been boosted by the Rikudo powerup


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not the one making baseless assumptions. you are assuming that *narutos senjutsu is somehow fusing with the bijus attacks*. the only case where naruto has directly fused his six paths senjutsu with chakra from a biju was when he used the magnet rasengan with shukakus chakra.


The bold is what the SO6P senjutsu basically is. It increases the power significantly of every attack Naruto uses. Senpo YRS and BDFRS are capable of such destruction because they were combined with Naruto's senpou rasenshuriken. How else can you explain them being so powerful?




> when yoton rasenshuriken was used, he just used his senjutsu to form wind blades around the yonbis attack.
> with bijudama, naruto simply formed blades around bijudama that kurama himself formed.


So you're basically saying that BDFRS is just a standard TBB that can cut shit? 
If that was the case it would not have destroyed those giant meteors. Remember the mere rubble from a meteor was dwarfing entire mountain ranges. The explosion of BDFRS was a lot bigger than those meteors. You can't seriously tell me that a standard TBB can do that?



> 50% kurama is capable of doing what naruto did, and he still cannot defeat hashirama.


Fine then show me 50% kurama's standard TBB destroying something on that lvl. if 50% kurama could dish out casual TBB's that were large island busters. Then imagine how powerful his super TBB would be. Then imagine how powerful 100% kurama's TBB would be. Hashirama would have gotten stomped CASUALLY by EMS madara if this was the case. However is this the case? No it isn't. I dunno why you keep denying that.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> You're making baseless assumptions again. Naruto is combining senjutsu with the power of the bijuus. The SO6P senjutsu powers up every single one of Naruto's attacks. What don't you get about this?  Are you seriously trying to say that 50% kurama's standard TBB can destroy current madara's meteors? Last time i checked those TBB's were only destroying mountains. The rubble from that attack were dwarfing entire mountain ranges. Again if 50% kurama WITHOUT THE SAGE OF THE SIX PATHS SENJUTSU was capable of that he would have been able to casually beat hashirama. But he couldn't right?


The maximum output of Kurama is mountain range or small country-country level, which is teratons (where BM and BSM Naruto were before). Bijudama Rasenshuriken is _multi-continent_ level based on vaporizing the entirety of the Chibaku Tensei's it hit, destroying all that rock is in the Petaton range if not higher. Hell Naruto's latest feat is in the Exaton range, approaching _moon level._

Hashirama is babyshaked. His power was surpassed by BSM Naruto, Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are just so much more powerful than him now. Both were effortlessly defeating Jinchuriki Madara, who is on a far higher level than Hashirama.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> The maximum output of Kurama is mountain range or small country-country level, which is teratons (where BM and BSM Naruto were before). Bijudama Rasenshuriken is _multi-continent_ level based on vaporizing the entirety of the Chibaku Tensei's it hit, destroying all that rock is in the Petaton range if not higher. Hell Naruto's latest feat is in the Exaton range, approaching _moon level._
> 
> Hashirama is babyshaked. His power was surpassed by BSM Naruto, Rikudo Senjutsu Naruto and Rinnegan Sasuke are just so much more powerful than him now. Both were effortlessly defeating Jinchuriki Madara, who is on a far higher level than Hashirama.


 Why are you posting this towards me? Lol im on your side, im arguing Naruto and Sasuke could casually stomp hashirama. it's that other guy you should be sending this to.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

Psp123789 said:


> Why are you posting this towards me? Lol im on your side, im arguing Naruto and Sasuke could casually stomp hashirama. it's that other guy you should be sending this to.


Just thought I'd help ya out with the power difference since Shinobi no Kami is _notoriously_ difficult to deal with. Thought you could use the help.


----------



## Psp123789 (May 26, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Just thought I'd help ya out with the power difference since Shinobi no Kami is _notoriously_ difficult to deal with. Thought you could use the help.


Oh sorry i thought you were disproving what i was saying for a second lol, thanks for the info.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

At best, the firepower Hashirama throws around is in the teraton range, and its still inferior to even Kurama's maximum output (regardless of Yin or Yang being separated). And his speed and reflexes are far below even BSM Naruto or BM Naruto, and his taijutsu is inferior in all areas too.


----------



## Fluon (May 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Hiruzen's clone solo'd him as well as far as I remember. In addition to those fodders who killed him in the first war. @>@





I laughed 
+rep


----------



## Kyuuzen (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not sure where you are getting this nonsense from. kuramas bijudama is just that. a bijudama from kurama. *the bijus attacks are separate from narutos own*. inb4 shukaku argument.



This is totally incorrect.

If they were just the Bijuu, they would be Bijuudamas.  The fact that Naruto is turning them into Rasengan variants proves that he has some control over the power they're giving him.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (May 26, 2014)

Hashirama is a top tier but not god tier. 

Naruto blows hashi's buddha statue in two with YRS and then beat hashirama to death with TSB if necessary. 

Sasuke uses PS to slice through hashirama and every arm on his buddha in one instant.


----------



## Arles Celes (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah to be perfectly honest I still haven't seen anything from Naruto or Sasuke that puts them above Hashirama. I'm sure they are above him, because Naruto was stated to have surpassed the Hokages after S06P power up, but I don't think we've seen how they are above Hashirama and EMS-Madara just yet, as they haven't use their biggest moves (no I don't think FRS-Bijuu-Dama is their biggest move).
> 
> I mean from what I can tell Hashirama can hand out chakra just like Naruto and can even hand out Sage-Chakra. Naruto is better now in terms of support with magic sailor-moon hand that can heal anything, but It's not like Hashirama falls tragically behind.
> 
> ...



And what feats would Naruto and Sasuke have to pull to prove that they are above Hashirama?

Should Sasuke cut an entire country in half while electrifying all people in said country by channeling raiton through his PS AND also immediately afterwards turning said country to ashes by also channeling some kind of white Amaterasu that is 100 times more powerful than the normal one?

Should Naruto unleash a bijuudama capable of obliterating the whole moon, use like 50 bijuu FRSs at the same time, nuke a whole country to the point there is just a huge pit left with no bottom to be seen or perform a sealing jutsu that handles Current Madara with ease? Or maybe ALL of the mentioned?

As of now the meteors that Sasuke's PS did cut were QUITE bigger that Madara's PS did cut(even the one combined with Kurama) while Naruto's Bijuu Bomb FRS creates an explosion even bigger than his previous super bijuudamas that dwarfed any explosions caused by 100% Kurama's bijuudama's therefore making Naruto's latest feat much more impressive in terms of destruction than Madara's Kyuusano bijuudama barrage.

That said EMS Madara only had PS and Kurama(which Sasuke could easily put to sleep) while Sasuke has a RS powered PS, teleportation that not even Shinju Madara could overcome and most likely all of standard rinnegan abilities powered up. Sasuke stomps.

And Hashi never granted chakra power ups on the same level as Naruto's Kurama cloaks nor is capable of such crazy healing. Hashi's biggest feat in this regard was giving Sasuke some chakra so that he performs some jutsu to seal Madara by reacting to Hashi's SM chakra in him. Naruto was capable of powering up an entire army. Furthermore Naruto has now Gudoudamas which were proved to be quite haxxed when Juubito was using them.

Besides if we go with that way of thinking then Current Madara is not stronger than EMS Madara either especially before he got his 2nd rinnegan. No nuking feats above nor even at the same level when compared to his VoTE self. So did Madara got weaker by becoming the Juubi Jin? Interesting...


----------



## richard lewis (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you can accredit narutos ability to destroy the meteors to yin kurama, since he supplied naruto with the bijudama. it is within 50% kuramas power to destroy madaras meteors.
> 
> hashirama already has power above 50% kurama.
> 
> ...



This is totally wrong for a couple of reasons

1. Jinchuriki are considerably stronger than just the buju by itself, bee and naruto's feats have made that very clear. In fact I'd say BSM naruto > 100% kuiby more times than not.

2. Naruto got a significant power boost from the RS so he is obviously many times stronger than he was with before. Not only that be he can draw power from all 9 buju not just 1.

3. Rasen-shurken greatly amplifies the power of the parent jutsu as seen with lava rasen-shuriken and wind rasen-shuriken, the same principal applies to his bujudama rasen-shuriken. It is most likely many times stronger than a regular BD.

So basically naruto destroied the meteor with the kurama's power which was further enhanced by SM, enhanced even further by RS's power, and then enhanced further more by being molded into rasen-shuriken. It is much stronger than a standard BD.


----------



## ueharakk (May 26, 2014)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> post these examples just for a frame of reference.


rasengan < senpou rasengan << SOR << *SCOR* <<<<<<< *SCOR barrage* < *FRS* based on the damage the later two techs did to kurama.

Do i really have to show you scans of how much more powerful a FRS is versus a rasengan?

*Youton* vs *youton rasenshuriken*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> they did in this case.


which means that they weren't bijuudamas as bijuudamas have never detonated on the user's command despite the users having very good reason to do so, they've always detonate after making an impact.  If a bijuudama could detonate at the user's command, then mokujin would be completely useless against defending against bijuudamas as madara would have just detonated it as soon as it was caught, and wouldn't have had to infuse the PS blades into them.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> narutos tbb RS are only significantly larger than his own body.


then that makes it necessary for you to concede that BDRS>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BD of the same size as that same BDRS makes an even larger blast than *this bijuudama.*



Shinobi no Kami said:


> im not seeing how this is accurate.


then show me or tell me why you don't think it's accurate.  Else if you can't, then it's a concession on your part since simply disagreeing with an argument isn't in anyway shape or form a counterargument.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> um, no. the sphere in the center detonates, which is a bijudama in this case. the blades in the technique create the tiny wind needles.
> the wind blades were simply destroyed by the bijudamas explosion in this case.


What in the world do you base those claims on?  Not only is that an explanation founded on zero evidence, but it's actually a complete contradiction to how rasenshurikens work.  Rasenshurikens aren't two separate parts.  A Fuuton rasenshuriken isn't a rasengan plus a couple of fuuton blades, since that would make it impossible for the technique to explode into a wind sphere, just like YRS isn't a ball of lava surrounded by rasenshuriken blades since that would mean naruto could have cut the shinjuu in half without the youton.  The technique explodes just like any other rasenshuriken, and it literally can't be just as powerful as a bijuudama since it makes a larger blast than the combined bijuudama from BM Naruto and Bee which was stated to be their maximum output.


----------



## ueharakk (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Yeah to be perfectly honest I still haven't seen anything from Naruto or Sasuke that puts them above Hashirama.


 *Not sure if serious.*  that's naruto in 'base' while simultaneously almost cutting JJ Madara in half.



Turrin said:


> I mean from what I can tell Hashirama can hand out chakra just like Naruto and can even hand out Sage-Chakra. Naruto is better now in terms of support with magic sailor-moon hand that can heal anything, but It's not like Hashirama falls tragically behind.


Handing out chakra to one guy =/= handing out chakra to the every individual member of the alliance + controlling those chakra cloaks.



Turrin said:


> In terms of combat, all of Naruto's new Rasengan Variants are neat and all, but to me none of them are above the level of Senpo ShinSuusenju, even 6 Bijuu Bomb FRS, considering how Senpo Shin Suusenju was repelling dozens of Kyuubi-Susano'o Bijuu Bombs and still blew away P-Susnao'o armor.


This has honestly got to be one of the dumbest posts I've ever seen you make.  
What in the world leads you to believe that Kyuubi susanoo BD = Senpou BD FRS?

Blast radius of a kyuubi BD didn't even reach those surrounding mountains.
On the other hand the bijuudama rasenshuriken produces blasts that were *much larger than the chibaku tenseis* madara created, *chibaku tenseis that rivaled* the *combined bijuudama crater* in size.

shinsuusenjuu isn't surviving one of those if its backpack gets taken out by a barrage of normal bijuudamas.

Then there's the fact that BDRS is logically superior to YRS and the shinjuu is much larger than shinsuusenjuu, which means shinsuusenjuu gets sliced in half and blown up by both respective techs.



Turrin said:


> And no I haven't seen anything from Sasuke yet that suggests he's above EMS-Madara. Sasuke P-Susano'o was impressive, but still hasn't shown me anything quite on the "level" of P-Susano'o+Kyuubi fusion.




exactly how big do you think those chibaku tenseis are? the super compacted Chibaku tenseis are much more durable than mountains or raw rock, we've see that when KN6 tried to fire a bijuudama at one.  Sasuke's individual slashes cutting in half a CT the size of the combined bijuudama crater absolutely craps on what we saw at VoTe.


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2014)

@Arles Celes

What can they show, easy. They can show the ascended ultimate forms they obviously have. When Naruto goes 9 Bijuu chakra cloak and Sasuke goes full size P-Susano'o is when they will show stuff above Hashirama and Madara, before that they are not going to be better than Kyuubi-Susano'o or Senpo Shin Suusenju which have absolutely just as ridiculous feats. Kyuubi-Susano'o created like 20 Susano'o Bijuu Bombs in an instant, which while I fully believe 1 BRS > 1 Kyuubi's Susano'o Bijuu bomb it's not better than 20, not even 6 are better than 20. People get impatient and can't wait for the moment where these two will truly show the power that makes them above Hashirama and EMS Madara, just wait for it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @Arles Celes
> 
> What can they show, easy. They can show the ascended ultimate forms they obviously have. When Naruto goes 9 Bijuu chakra cloak and Sasuke goes full size P-Susano'o is when they will show stuff above Hashirama and Madara, before that they are not going to be better than Kyuubi-Susano'o or Senpo Shin Suusenju which have absolutely just as ridiculous feats. Kyuubi-Susano'o created like 20 Susano'o Bijuu Bombs in an instant, which while I fully believe 1 BRS > 1 Kyuubi's Susano'o Bijuu bomb it's not better than 20, not even 6 are better than 20. People get impatient and can't wait for the moment where these two will truly show the power that makes them above Hashirama and EMS Madara, just wait for it.


One Bijudama Rasenshuriken _is_ magnitudes stronger than the barrage of Bijudama Kurama used at the VOTE. Shinsusenju isn't even in the same league as the Chibaku Tensei that Madara used, and ONE Bijudama Rasenshuriken destroyed FOUR of them. Not to mention that Naruto also has Senpo: Yoton Rasenshuriken which can completely annihilate the fucking SHINJU.

Naruto's more than surpassed Hashirama now dude.


----------



## ueharakk (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> What can they show, easy. They can show the ascended ultimate forms they obviously have. When Naruto goes 9 Bijuu chakra cloak and Sasuke goes full size P-Susano'o is when they will show stuff above Hashirama and Madara, before that they are not going to be better than Kyuubi-Susano'o or Senpo Shin Suusenju which have absolutely just as ridiculous feats. Kyuubi-Susano'o created like 20 Susano'o Bijuu Bombs in an instant, which while I fully believe 1 BRS > 1 Kyuubi's Susano'o Bijuu bomb it's not better than 20, not even 6 are better than 20.


20?  The most we see in one panel is 11, and nothing suggests that even 20 of those = a BDRS, it's the exact opposite that is shown by a single BDRS producing a blast much larger than the combined max bijuudama crater that BM Naruto and Bee made, a crater so big that Kurama would have to fire over 20 normal bijuudamas in order to create something as large.



Turrin said:


> People get impatient and can't wait for the moment where these two will truly show the power that makes them above Hashirama and EMS Madara, just wait for it.


People CAN be impatient, but this is not the case.  In this case its just you and a few others who think "bijuudama + PS sword looks like BDRS, therefore bijuudama + PS sword =~ BDRS" despite the overwhelming evidence against such a conclusion, a conclusion arrived at by intellectual laziness and dishonesty.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

One Bijudama Rasenshuriken explosion vs Choju Kebetsu vs Bijudama Renzoku.

The former is far greater than the latter.


----------



## Jagger (May 26, 2014)

Even if they lack the necessary feats, shouldn't it be logical that they're now stronger than the so-called "God of Shinobi"?

After all, they awakened their dormant powers after meeting with Hagoromo, which is something Hashirama never did (I find it strange, though). Using logical measures, they can be escalated to be stronger than him.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

by hype Hiruzen is the most powerful Hokage (and therefore Kage) and is also referred to as the god of Shinobi


----------



## Turrin (May 26, 2014)

@ueharakk

Look at the page before there are more BijuuBombs on that page.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> Look at the page before there are more BijuuBombs on that page.


There are nine Bijudama's. Still far inferior to one Bijudama Rasenshuriken, much less six.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 26, 2014)

Multi Bijuudama Rasengan is more destructive than anything else seen anything in the series except possibly Juubi blowing up the HQ (and by scaling it's stronger)


----------



## Fiiction (May 26, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Gai fodder stomps with 8 gates
> (probably Dai with 8gates as well)
> 
> Hiruzen's clone solo'd him as well as far as I remember. In addition to those fodders who killed him in the first war. @>@
> ...



Prime Hashirama > Any Minato.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 26, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> Prime Hashirama > Any Minato.


BM Minato is at least on Hashriama's level if not a bit higher. All the firepower of Kurama + the teleportation of Hiraishin + Minato's insane reflexes and natural speed? Its downright intellectual dishonesty to claim otherwise.


----------



## trance (May 27, 2014)

Is Turrin seriously doubting that current Nardo and Sauce are above Hashirama? 

Madara's "Chibaku Tensei" created stone orbs that utterly, _utterly_ dwarfed entire mountain ranges and even the Shinju stumb, which is many kilometres wide. Nardo and Sauce destroyed those stone orbs with ease. Hell, Naruto can even spam his "Bijudama Rasenshuriken" as shown here [x]. "Shinsuusenju" will be not only be destroyed but he environment around it will be too,  engulfed in an explosion the size of a small country.


----------



## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Is Turrin seriously doubting that current Nardo and Sauce are above Hashirama?
> .


Is starkiller seriously unable to read......considering I blatantly said they are above them



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> There are nine Bijudama's. Still far inferior to one Bijudama Rasenshuriken, much less six.


Still not looking at the page before


----------



## trance (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Is starkiller seriously unable to read......considering I blatantly said they are above them



Forgive me. Went back. It seems you're arguing with the fact that Hashirama isn't _that_ far behind, which I don't agree with but whatever.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> Look at the page before there are more BijuuBombs on that page.



I only see two panels with bijuudamas on it.  *The first is the upper left and the second is the bottom.*

I count 11 on the upper left and 2 on the bottom (which could very well be 2 from the upper left panel).  The *previous page* doesn't have any bijuudamas on it *nor the next page*, so i don't understand what you mean by 'look at the page before'.


----------



## Icegaze (May 27, 2014)

I think people are massively overestimating the size of those meteors formed from chibaku tensei. Also note
hachibi BD, yasaka and FRS have already destroyed CT completely before. Yet those 3 combined attacks are far less than 9 BD from 100%kyuubi which budda tanked and then proceeded to pawn kyuubi. 

Those meteors madara formed are not as large as some people think they are, those meteors are no larger than budda. Please note budda is at least 5 times larger than PS susanoo easily.


----------



## trance (May 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Those meteors madara formed are not as large as some people think they are, those meteors are no larger than budda.



They *are* huge. The Shinju stump, which is larger than Hashirama's "Shinsuusenju, is roughly the same size as those meteors [x]. Naruto's "Bijudama Rasenshuriken" created an explosion larger than one of those meteors [x]. As you can see in the middle right panel, the debris _far_ eclipses entire mountains.


----------



## Icegaze (May 27, 2014)

again you have to use all sizes as a reference.

PS compared to budda
PS compared to meteor 
What budda can tank
damage output done by 1 blade of PS susanoo= slicing several mountain ranges at a significant distance from them 

then you remember 9 of those blades were added to 9 100% kyuubi bijudama yet the next panel kyuubi gets put to sleep like a little doggy


 Those meteors aren't the same size as the stomp. Also the stomp. The meteors were about 10 times bigger than the sasuke susanoo and less in some other panels. In any case budda should be able to deal with those meteors with the same ease naruto and sasuke had. The meteors would be at most twice its size.


----------



## trance (May 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> again you have to use all sizes as a reference. Those meteors aren't the same size as the stomp. Also the stomp. The meteors were about 10 times bigger than the sasuke susanoo and less in some other panels.



Blame Kishi's inconsistent drawing. :ignoramus



> In any case budda should be able to deal with those meteors with the same ease naruto and sasuke had. The meteors would be at most twice its size.



Even if it's just twice it's size, that's _still_ a significant margin. Naruto can not only create an explosion much larger than one _but_ can spam them. One would severely damage his "Shinsuusenju" at the bare minimum. Six makes it a done deal.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

Multi-continent BB Rasenshuriken spam vs Country Level Shin Sūsenju. Gee I wonder what's more powerful?


----------



## Ersa (May 27, 2014)

Although I don't disagree that the rivals are far superior to Hashirama, using fan-made OBD calcs as evidence really doesn't help your argument.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> I think people are massively overestimating the size of those meteors formed from chibaku tensei.


How so?  *Are those meteors not comparable in size to the combined bijuudama crater underneath the shinjuu?* 

Usually when you claim people are massively overestimating size, you'd state why they are overestimating it or give scans to show why.



Icegaze said:


> Also note
> hachibi BD, yasaka and FRS have already destroyed CT completely before. Yet those 3 combined attacks are far less than 9 BD from 100%kyuubi which budda tanked and then proceeded to pawn kyuubi.


1) They didn't destroy CT completely, they merely destroyed its core before the technique could be completed
2) That's a CT from nagato who's nothing compared to JJ Madara
3) Nagato >> deva path, yet even *deva path's CT took almost no damage from a KN6 bijuudama*, the same one that did *this to konoha.*



Icegaze said:


> Those meteors madara formed are not as large as some people think they are, those meteors are no larger than budda. Please note budda is at least 5 times larger than PS susanoo easily.


 

*look at how tiny PS is compared to the combined bijuudama crater.* *Each meteor rivals the size of that same crater*, and naruto's BDFRS is* far larger than each of the meteors.*

So no one should be even thinking about arguing that the shinsuusenjuu is even close to the size of a meteor, or that it would take more power to destroy shinsuusenjuu than it would to destroy the meteor.


----------



## Icegaze (May 27, 2014)

Erm the first scan makes no sense thats the size of the barrier. Not the size of any combined bijuudama. juubito fired his BD at the 4 corners to be sure to catch everyone within his barrier. thats all so . 
no proof the BD's actually covered the entire area, the barrier bulged because they were shot at its extremities

Also adding drawings like that unto one scan is not only really nerdy but just wrong. kishi isnt massively consistent with his drawings. therefore paralleling them like that is silly. There is no reason for PS to be smaller from chapter to chapter however kishi does sometimes draw it relatively smaller or bigger

its how they compare to the same objects from chapter to chapter which should be taken into account. 

Also the scan you showed can fit about 4 SS in the crater. just about....so again 

as for the meteors their relative sizes really cant be compared to the size of the barrier.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 27, 2014)

Outside of the obviously god tier characters (Rikudo + family, Juubi hosts, Juubi, Naruto, Sauce and 2 descendants) Hashirama is the strongest character with the arguable exception of gated Gai. So yes, he is top of the top tiers, but still near fodder for the god tiers.


----------



## trance (May 27, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> Outside of the obviously god tier characters (Rikudo + family, Juubi hosts, Juubi, Naruto, Sauce and 2 descendants) Hashirama is the strongest character with the *arguable exception of gated Gai*. So yes, he is top of the top tiers, but still near fodder for the god tiers.



Wait, Gai with the eighth gate? 

He's _far_ above Hashirama. He was competing with Juudara and his last attack nearly killed him.


----------



## Icegaze (May 27, 2014)

8 gate gai still really cant kill hashirama. also 8 gated gai will be hard pressed to tank budda. Please note madara was not defending himself against gai. gai as fast as he is cannot cover the landscape and shear AoE of budda 1000 hands slamming on the ground. hashirama doesnt even have to aim at gai he can just swipe the area around gai. 

also hashirama can just hide and fight with a clone. how is gai to find him. people think so 1 track here. 

being able to bully juudara who actually use techniques which utterly pale in in destructive power to PS susanoo is a great feat but massively exaggerated here. 

juudara did not use any techniques. outside the black balls and rods....hahah sounds funny. which even rock lee was able to dodge so seriously less stop with the wank. 

hashirama is above 8 gate gai.BSM naruto etc...


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> Erm the first scan makes no sense thats the size of the barrier. Not the size of any combined bijuudama. juubito fired his BD at the 4 corners to be sure to catch everyone within his barrier. thats all so .
> no proof the BD's actually covered the entire area, the barrier bulged because they were shot at its extremities


*This is the combined bijuudama that i'm talking about. * *It hit GM traveled with him and exploded in the distance.*  You can see *in this scan* that the juubi is that tiny thing in the middle of the crater caused by the combined dama, and it has to have been created by the combined dama since no other giant explosion occurs and we see the trench the dama created from travelling from the forest to the middle of the crater.

And that same crater is the one we see *in this scan*, the same one that the barrier, PS and mokujin are in as it's the same size as the crater from the above link, and we know it couldn't have been caused by tenpenchii since the tenpenchii *spans an area larger than the shinjuu's roots* while the crater we saw earlier is c*ompletely eclipsed by them.*

Finally, how that crater was created is completely irrelevant to my argument as my argument simply uses the crater's size to give you an idea about how big PS is compared to the meteors by comparing both.



Icegaze said:


> Also adding drawings like that unto one scan is not only really nerdy but just wrong. kishi isnt massively consistent with his drawings. therefore paralleling them like that is silly. There is no reason for PS to be smaller from chapter to chapter however kishi does sometimes draw it relatively smaller or bigger


i'm not adding 'drawings, i'm cutting and pasting what has already been drawn in other manga scans, and the image doesn't assert perfect size relation, however it does assert a relatively accurate size relation.  Shinsuusenjuu might be a little larger or a little smaller, but that's not going to make a difference with the overall conclusion of the size relation which is that it's far smaller than the crater.



Icegaze said:


> its how they compare to the same objects from chapter to chapter which should be taken into account.


And that's exactly what I did when I made that size relation image.  The small surrounding images are what i used to make those size relations which are direct object comparisons within the same chapters. 



Icegaze said:


> Also the scan you showed can fit about 4 SS in the crater. just about....so again


 now I know you are just being dishonest.  In the scan I showed, you would have to line up 6 shinsuusenjuu's just to make the diameter of the crater.  6/3= 3 = radius, and pi*3^2 = 27 shinsuusenjuu's are what it takes to just cover the surface area of the crater.  



Icegaze said:


> as for the meteors their relative sizes really cant be compared to the size of the barrier.


It's not the size of the barrier they are being compared to, they are being compared to the crater that the barrier is within.  *It's the same crater that's under the shinjuu root, *, and you can see that *the meteors are comparable to the size of that crater*.  

Please don't waste my time, at first I genuinely considered that you've just misunderstood what i was trying to compare, but now after seeing that all you've done is try to discredit my argument yet make zero attempts at trying to make an argument of your own, I'm convinced that you know exactly what I was referring to from the start, and are just feigning your misunderstanding in order to drag this out so that you won't have to concede the inescapable conclusion of the size of the meteors.  

No one's going to kill you for being wrong in an argument, so if you are, just accept it and avert your efforts to other pro-hashirama arguments instead of waste both of our times arguing a point that's been conclusively proven.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> *This is the combined bijuudama that i'm talking about. * *It hit GM traveled with him and exploded in the distance.*  You can see *in this scan* that the juubi is that tiny thing in the middle of the crater caused by the combined dama, and it has to have been created by the combined dama since no other giant explosion occurs and we see the trench the dama created from travelling from the forest to the middle of the crater.
> 
> And that same crater is the one we see *in this scan*, the same one that the barrier, PS and mokujin are in as it's the same size as the crater from the above link, and we know it couldn't have been caused by tenpenchii since the tenpenchii *spans an area larger than the shinjuu's roots* while the crater we saw earlier is c*ompletely eclipsed by them.*
> 
> ...



6/3 is 2, not 3.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Phoenix Zoro said:


> 6/3 is 2, not 3.


my bad, i meant 6/2 = 3 since diameter (6)/2 = radius (3)


----------



## ZE (May 27, 2014)

Current Madara>=Jyuubito V2>Current Naruto=Current Sasuke=Jyuubito V1>Hashirama


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 27, 2014)

^ ^ Fair enough. 

It should be clear to anyone at this stage that Nardo and Sauce would shit all over Shodai, anyone suggesting otherwise is living on a cloud.

That said, I don't agree with all these people who thought that Naruto had surpassed Hashirama with BSM, I don't think anything points towards that in the slightest.


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 27, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> BM Minato is at least on Hashriama's level if not a bit higher. All the firepower of Kurama + the teleportation of Hiraishin + Minato's insane reflexes and natural speed? Its downright intellectual dishonesty to claim otherwise.



This is wrong. I don't understand how people can completely disregard Hashirama like this, its madness.

Background:
The sharingan grants the ability to tango with superior speedsters. MS Sauce was able to react to V1 Raikage as an example of this. By sheer logic alone, Madara's capabilities with the sharingan are worlds above Sauce's at that stage in the manga. How is it then, that he a) could not see through mokuton bunshin at VOTE and b) was only able to stalemate Hashirama in CQC despite said sharingan and incredible CQC feats in the war. Its simply because Hashi is good enough in CQC to fight against him. 

Its obvious that Hashirama would have the reflexes to fight against Minato's incredible shunshin. Minato is certainly faster and his teleportation would be an issue if he could get anywhere near Hashirama, but anything he can conjure with Kurama's chakra we know canonically in the manga that Hashirama can counter. As if Hashi will just let Minato throw kunai around everywhere, we are talking about a character so powerful he levels mountains. Its hysterical actually that the BD think hiraishin gg will work.

I can't tell if its because they have been fighting transcendent beings or whether people just think the likes of Minato can blitz Hashirama through pure stupidity, but somewhere along the lines, people seem to have completely forgotten that Madara and Hashirama on multiple occasions have been stated in the last couple of hundred chapters to be the pinnicle of the non-transcendent fighters. That hasn't changed even with BSM Naruto.


----------



## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Forgive me. Went back. It seems you're arguing with the fact that Hashirama isn't _that_ far behind, which I don't agree with but whatever.


Except you still have it wrong. I said what they've shown so far isn't that far above Hashirama. I do not know how strong they will be after showing more.



ueharakk said:


> I only see two panels with bijuudamas on it.  *The first is the upper left and the second is the bottom.*
> 
> I count 11 on the upper left and 2 on the bottom (which could very well be 2 from the upper left panel).  The *previous page* doesn't have any bijuudamas on it *nor the next page*, so i don't understand what you mean by 'look at the page before'.


The release I was reading split that one page into two. 

Anyway I count 11 in the first panel and 2 in the second panel. Making it 13 shown, however, I do not think that small panel is suppose to indicate that's all the Bijuu-dama Madara threw out just like the small panel Hashirama's Buddha arms does not indicate the sheer amount of buddha arms Hashirama threw out. Given that I think i'm being rather minimalistic in say there was only 20 spit out in that clash.

Anyway you can talk to me all you want about the size of the meteors, but a single one of Madara's Bijuudama even after going through Gojo Roshomon and crossing an ocean still produced an explosion that dwarfing several mountains. 20 of them is not going to fall that far away from the scale of Naruto's 6 BFRS. 

Or to look at it yet another way. When BM Naruto's Largest Bijuu Bomb connected with the combined Bijuu Bomb of 5 Bijuu, the explosion was just as big if not bigger than the explosion of the 6 BFRS. Considering 50% Kurama was clearly a match for those 5 Bijuu in power output we can assume that 100% Kurama could create an Bijuu Bomb with as much explosive force as the combined Bijuu Bombs in that instance. Madara's than has P-Susano'o's power on top of that. So again I feel I'm being extremely generous in saying that P-Susano'o-Kyuubi only has power output around that of the 6 BFRS. 

Again it's not what Naruto has shown so far that makes me put him above Hashirama, but rather the casual nature at which Naruto is doing it. Right now Naruto w/o even pulling out his Biijuuu aura is still producing attacks on close to or on par with Madara's and Hashirama's strongest techniques. That and Naruto having been stated to have surpassed the Hokages, tells me we are going to see much more impressive shit from him, and we simply need to have patience for that


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (May 27, 2014)

ZE said:


> Current Madara>=Jyuubito V2>Current Naruto=Current Sasuke=Jyuubito V1>Hashirama



Juubito is below Sauce and Naruto by quite a bit due to them beating on Juudara fairly badly before his powerup (and they still don't seem totally outclassed now)



Icegaze said:


> 8 gate gai still really cant kill hashirama. also 8 gated gai will be hard pressed to tank budda. Please note madara was not defending himself against gai. gai as fast as he is cannot cover the landscape and shear AoE of budda 1000 hands slamming on the ground. hashirama doesnt even have to aim at gai he can just swipe the area around gai.
> 
> also hashirama can just hide and fight with a clone. how is gai to find him. people think so 1 track here.
> 
> ...



Hashirama is hilariously weaker than Gai, who rofl blitzes him, one punch and he explodes in a pile of gore in the next country over. Hashirama is low teratons and mach 300+, Gai is exatons casually and is mach 24,000+


----------



## Phoenix Zoro (May 27, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Wait, Gai with the eighth gate?
> 
> He's _far_ above Hashirama. He was competing with Juudara and his last attack nearly killed him.



You're right, I'm not sure why I put arguably, its a stomp.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> The release I was reading split that one page into two.


kk



Turrin said:


> Anyway I count 11 in the first panel and 2 in the second panel. Making it 13 shown, however, I do not think that small panel is suppose to indicate that's all the Bijuu-dama Madara threw out just like the small panel Hashirama's Buddha arms does not indicate the sheer amount of buddha arms Hashirama threw out. Given that I think i'm being rather minimalistic in say there was only 20 spit out in that clash.


That makes sense too.  I'd say a good estimate for how many bijuudamas were actually fired would be to use that big bottom panel and see how many bijuudamas are on the page vs how many shinsuusenjuu arms are on that page, and thus you'd get a ratio.



Turrin said:


> Anyway you can talk to me all you want about the size of the meteors, but a single one of Madara's Bijuudama even after going through Gojo Roshomon and crossing an ocean still produced an explosion that dwarfing several mountains. 20 of them is not going to fall that far away from the scale of Naruto's 6 BFRS.


the other individual tailed beasts were firing bijuudamas that *dwarfed several mountains as well...*  both bijuudama explosions we've seen from 100% kurama were only on the level of the bijuudamas that BM Naruto deflected, the difference is that Kurama was able to fire a so many in such a short time.  

You can add up 20 of those explosions and (assuming they are more powerful) they don't make an explosion much larger than* this.* nor a crater much larger than *this*.

Each individual BDRS produces an explosion MUCH larger than even that.  So yes, 20 of them isn't even going to be as powerful as one BDRS let alone 6.

Plus the PS blade would logically not add anything to the explosion, it would just make the damas uncatchable.



Turrin said:


> Or to look at it yet another way. When BM Naruto's Largest Bijuu Bomb connected with the combined Bijuu Bomb of 5 Bijuu, the explosion was just as big if not bigger than the explosion of the 6 BFRS.


Wait, that's just terribly false right there. 

*This explosion* isn't even bigger than *this explosion.* and at the very least they are comparable in power.  

that also wasn't even BM Naruto's largest bijuudama, he spent much more time in making the combined one with bee, and bee stated that both were putting their maximum input.



Turrin said:


> Considering 50% Kurama was clearly a match for those 5 Bijuu in power output we can assume that 100% Kurama could create an Bijuu Bomb with as much explosive force as the combined Bijuu Bombs in that instance. Madara's than has P-Susano'o's power on top of that. So again I feel I'm being extremely generous in saying that P-Susano'o-Kyuubi only has power output around that of the 6 BFRS.


The above wouldn't allow you to reach these conclusions.

How about this. 1 BDRS >> BM Naruto + Bee's combined MAXIMUM bijuudama > BM Naruto's maximum bijuudama

Thus 2 BDRS >> 2 BM Naruto + 2 Bee's combined Maximum bijuudama > 2 BM Naruto's maximum bijuudama = 100% Kurama's maximum bijuudama.

Therefore even if we radically reduced the power of each BDRS to even less than that of bee and naruto's combined bijuudama, at the very best, Kurama could only match the power of 2 of them.




Turrin said:


> Again it's not what Naruto has shown so far that makes me put him above Hashirama, but rather the casual nature at which Naruto is doing it. Right now Naruto w/o even pulling out his Biijuuu aura is still producing attacks on close to or on par with Madara's and Hashirama's strongest techniques. That and Naruto having been stated to have surpassed the Hokages, tells me we are going to see much more impressive shit from him, and we simply need to have patience for that


But the thing is if you understood or at least acknowledge the relative scale of these techniques and how big they are in comparison to each other, then naruto would be far above both of them regardless if this was his max or if he's doing this stuff casually.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2014)

Hashirama gets annihilated by current Naruto and Sasuke. 

He can probably put up a fight initially but once they get serious he gets destroyed with low difficulty.



ZE said:


> Current Madara>=Jyuubito V2>Current Naruto=Current Sasuke=Jyuubito V1>Hashirama



More like :

Current Madara > Sasuke/Naruto >= God tree Madara > Pre God tree Madara > Juubito v2 > Juubito V1 > SM Hashirama


----------



## Fluon (May 27, 2014)

Nope, went fodder level, after end of flashback.


----------



## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

@ueharakk

I looked at your pictures and still disagree 20x Madara Bijuu Bomb would be that large imo. And you're not going to sway me on that stringing together many different panels, that show different perspectives of different explosions, where Kishimoto fucks around with scale all the time.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> I looked at your pictures and still disagree 20x Madara Bijuu Bomb would be that large imo.


but by what logic reason or evidence? 

I have shown how the combined bijuudama crater of BM Naruto and Bee would produce a blast that would at least be comparable to 20 Kurama bijuudamas, and that's something you haven't disagreed with.

I have shown how each of those meteors are at least comparable in size to that crater, and how a single BDRS produces a blast far larger than a meteor, again which is something you haven't disagreed with.

What still leads you to believe that 6 BDRS, each of which are far larger than the combined bijuudama crater, would only be 'generously comparable' to 20x kyuusanoo bijuudamas?  



Turrin said:


> And you're not going to sway me on that stringing together many different panels, that show different perspectives of different explosions, where Kishimoto fucks around with scale all the time.


That's basically the concessionary statement that people use once they are presented with irrefutable proof of the other guy's argument where they basically say "kishi isn't consistent with sizes, therefore no comparisons can be made".  

By that logic, anyone could bring up that argument for anything they don't want to be true no matter how compelling or convincing the alternate argument is.

Look i even went out of my way to go by the exact same logic that you proposed and showed that even if you drop BDRS a tier or two in power and make it equal to BM Naruto's max bijuudama, it still at best would lead you to conclude that 100% Kurama's max output = 2 BDRS, yet still even then you can't even concede the argument?

Again, it leads me to the conclusion that you just don't care about the truth of the argument, but rather just being right.   If all the evidence compellingly points to my conclusion, and the only response you can give is "kishi is inconsistent with sizes" (which by the way isn't even a positive argument since it could be that kishi is lowballing BDRS and the combined bijuudama) then it means you have no argument, no positive evidence to support your conclusions and thus no reason to believe them, while on the otherhand my argument is compelling.

I seriously don't understand why you can't just debate honestly.  Do you actually lose something when you concede points in a debate?


----------



## Orochibuto (May 27, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> but by what logic reason or evidence?
> 
> I have shown how the combined bijuudama crater of BM Naruto and Bee would produce a blast that would at least be comparable to 20 Kurama bijuudamas, and that's something you haven't disagreed with.
> 
> ...



Maybe he has wet dreams with Hashirama and in them Hashirama tells him everytime he lose a debate of Hashiwank will be a sexless night 

This Hashirama wank is honestly closing in Itachi level.


----------



## Turrin (May 27, 2014)

@ueharakk

I disagree with linking several panels together to try and figure out scale in general as Kishi's scaling doesn't stay the same. That's why I'd only look at the panel where the actual feat is performed. I also disagree with many of the things you say are bigger, as they don't look bigger to me. The BM-Naruto Bijuu Bomb + 5 Bijuu Bomb looks like the same incredible size as the 6 BFRS; perhaps a bit smaller, but I think 100% Kurama could make a larger one, especially when powered up further by P-Susano'o anyway. 

And no I also disagree with how you are mapping out the Bijuu Bombs in terms of strength

50% Kurama's Largest Bijuu-Bomb > BFRS imo. Why, because even after Naruto pulled out a ton of chakra from 50% Kurama, he still generated this massive Bijuu-dama:
Suiton: Suidanha

Obviously if 50% Kurama was at full strength he could generate one that is much larger than that one. 

So I see it as more 50% Kurama Max-Power Bijuu Bomb > BFRS > 50% Kurama's Standard Bijuu Bomb > Smaller KN1-8 Bijuu Bombs. 

BFRS is about the size of a standard Bijuu-Bomb, maybe a bit smaller, but it has Wind-Chakra added into it, so it's stronger than standard Bijuu-Bombs. However I do not think adding that bit of wind-chakra makes it stronger than Max-Bijuu Bomb

So I see it more as 2 BFRS = 1 Max Bijuu Bomb from 50% Kurama. 4 BFRS = 1  Max Bijuu Bomb from 100% Kurama. Than P-Susano'o makes up the difference of the remaining 2 BFRS. 

If you disagree, you disagree, but I just don't have the energy to get into an argument about scaling with you, and about Hashirama vs Naruto, because I think it's kind of silly, as we both think Naruto is current stronger than Hashirama, potentially much stronger, and I don't see the big deal with whether your think he's stronger with just 6 BFRS or whether I don't think he's stronger w/ just BFRS; because he is stronger.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2014)

Turrin said:


> @ueharakk
> 
> I disagree with linking several panels together to try and figure out scale in general as Kishi's scaling doesn't stay the same. That's why I'd only look at the panel where the actual feat is performed.


the GENERAL scale stays the same, and that's especially true for explosions and craters, they are actually very consistent in size in this manga.   Plus, we have multiple panels of the craters and explosions and the stuff i brought up and they are all consistent with each other in scale, there are no outliers.  

Finally, this is just a point that you recently adopted since you know that by even glancing at the panels together you would either have to claim that you are legally blind or concede the conclusions of my argument.



Turrin said:


> I also disagree with many of the things you say are bigger, as they don't look bigger to me. The BM-Naruto Bijuu Bomb + 5 Bijuu Bomb looks like the same incredible size as the 6 BFRS; perhaps a bit smaller, but I think 100% Kurama could make a larger one, especially when powered up further by P-Susano'o anyway.


How in the world can you claim that?  We have no common things to reference the sizes of the 6BDRS compared to the BM Naruto + 5 bijuu bombs.  You have to do panel linking.  Show me what objects you are using in both scans to reference the sizes of both damas?

I can even prove you wrong on that since we see that the BM Naruto + neo pein dama explodes right above the hachibi's whirlwind, yet *the blast isn't even big enough to reach the smoking craters of the previously fired bijuudamas.*  Yet we see *here* that even if the blast did reach those craters, it still would only be comparable in size to the crater that the combined bijuudama made.

Plus, it's logically impossible for that to be true as we know BM Naruto supplied half the power of that blast, and we know that BM Naruto and Bee provided their combined maximum power to the bijuudama that makes a blast that's comparable in size just one of madara's meteors.  Thus it would be logically impossible for the combined bijuudama to be more powerful than 2 BDRS.




Turrin said:


> And no I also disagree with how you are mapping out the Bijuu Bombs in terms of strength
> 
> 50% Kurama's Largest Bijuu-Bomb > BFRS imo. Why, because even after Naruto pulled out a ton of chakra from 50% Kurama, he still generated this massive Bijuu-dama:
> Link removed


That's again, logically impossible since* we know that BM Naruto and Bee combined their maximum bijuudamas into this,* which still produces a blast that no where near the size of a BDRS.  I've explained this at least twice already. Either refute that explanation or concede.

And Kurama generating that massive bijuudama while low on chakra means jack squat since the bijuu can't put anything close to their entire chakra reserves into a single bijuudama, we've seen that with bee and naruto, and it's been inferred when bee commented on how powerful BM Naruto's dama was.



Turrin said:


> So I see it as more 50% Kurama Max-Power Bijuu Bomb > BFRS > 50% Kurama's Standard Bijuu Bomb > Smaller KN1-8 Bijuu Bombs.


Which is completely and utterly falsified by the combined bijuudama crater, and is based on absolutely nothing beside you arbitrarily claiming with zero support that BM Naruto + neo pain's bijuudama > BDRS.



Turrin said:


> BFRS is about the size of a standard Bijuu-Bomb, maybe a bit smaller, but it has Wind-Chakra added into it, so it's stronger than standard Bijuu-Bombs. However I do not think adding that bit of wind-chakra makes it stronger than Max-Bijuu Bomb


WHY!?  We have blatant, explicit, compelling, and conclusive manga proof that a single BDRS HAS TO BE more powerful than *THIS BAD BOY.*

And my goodness, why wouldn't turning a bijuudama into a BDRS boost its power exponentially?  What happens when a rasengan is turned into a FRS?  What happens when youton is turned into YRS?  The the base attack and the rasenshruken version differ by MAGNITUDES in power, why in the heck would a bijuudama rasenshuriken be any different?



Turrin said:


> So I see it more as 2 BFRS = 1 Max Bijuu Bomb from 50% Kurama. 4 BFRS = 1  Max Bijuu Bomb from 100% Kurama. Than P-Susano'o makes up the difference of the remaining 2 BFRS.


Cmon now, that literally is impossible.  given the evidence.



Turrin said:


> If you disagree, you disagree, but I just don't have the energy to get into an argument about scaling with you, and about Hashirama vs Naruto, because I think it's kind of silly, as we both think Naruto is current stronger than Hashirama, potentially much stronger, and I don't see the big deal with whether your think he's stronger with just 6 BFRS or whether I don't think he's stronger w/ just BFRS; because he is stronger.


Do you know why I have the energy to argue with you?  It's because I wholeheartedly and truly believe that my argument is literally compelling for anyone who even has a shred of thirst for truth.  And so far you have given me every reason to believe so since the only thing you have been able to do is simply assert that kishi is inconsistent with sizes, and just write off the conclusive proof that shows a BDRS logically and necessarily has to be more powerful than bee and naruto's combined max bijuudama.  

Just debate honestly, why can't you do that for once.  What is so hard about just conceding a debate.  Do you think you're going to lose man points?  If for some reason you are, you can have mine, I don't care, I just want to care about the truth of the argument and getting as close to objectivity as I can.  Cmon man, make this forum a better place.


----------



## ZE (May 27, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Hashirama gets annihilated by current Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> He can probably put up a fight initially but once they get serious he gets destroyed with low difficulty.
> 
> ...



You forget Obito had the power of the God Tree at some point. He was the one who released all that power, and only then was he defeated. That Obito should be above the Jyuubi Madara without the God Tree absorbed.


----------



## Orochibuto (May 27, 2014)

ZE said:


> You forget Obito had the power of the God Tree at some point. He was the one who released all that power, and only then was he defeated. That Obito should be above the Jyuubi Madara without the God Tree absorbed.



There is zero evidence that Juubito got any weaker after summoning Shinju.


----------



## ZE (May 27, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> There is zero evidence that Juubito got any weaker after summoning Shinju.



If Madara got stronger after absorbing the God Tree, Obito had to become weaker after expelling it. Logic, use it.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2014)

ZE said:


> You forget Obito had the power of the God Tree at some point. He was the one who released all that power, and only then was he defeated. That Obito should be above the Jyuubi Madara without the God Tree absorbed.



Its either a retcon or releasing God Tree didn't weaken Obito. Otherwise it would be stated or shown.


----------



## Orochibuto (May 27, 2014)

ZE said:


> If Madara got stronger after absorbing the God Tree, Obito had to become weaker after expelling it. Logic, use it.



Except that unlike Madara; Obito didnt had a Tree that had already regained at least some of its chakre; neither had the Mugen Tsukuyomi flower blooming; neither did he recieved instructions from Kaguya to absorb it. In fact when Obito released Juubi it wasnt even the Tree.

Neither do we see or are told of any decrease in his power; at all.

You have zero evidence.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2014)

ZE said:


> If Madara got stronger after absorbing the God Tree, Obito had to become weaker after expelling it. Logic, use it.



Not necessarily otherwise Obito should have been able to make use of the Gudou-Dama as he did. 
He became weaker in that he couldn't use it to attack people. However expelling it didn't make him weaker from what we can gather.

Madara got stronger because, whilst already having the Juubi within him, he absorbed _another_ Shinju. Technically Madara has Juubix2 within him, rather than Obito who had one. That explains Madara's power increase.


----------



## ZE (May 27, 2014)

Orochibuto said:


> Except that unlike Madara; Obito didnt had a Tree that had already regained at least some of its chakre; neither had the Mugen Tsukuyomi flower blooming; neither did he recieved instructions from Kaguya to absorb it. In fact when Obito released Juubi it wasnt even the Tree.
> 
> Neither do we see or are told of any decrease in his power; at all.
> 
> You have zero evidence.



Absorbing the chakra from some fodders wouldn't make the Tree that much powerful. 

I have all the needed evidence. 
The Tree had to come from somewhere. It was a part of something that was taken from Obito. He was less complete after expelling the tree, thus he was weaker.


----------

