# Juubijin Madara Vs Nappa



## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

Place : Saiyan Saga Goku Vs Vegeta
In character
No restriction whatsoever.

If it's a stomp for Madara, remove the Juubi for Madara
If it's a stomp for Nappa, use Radditz instead.

EDIT : No Kamui for Madara. Just his Rinnegan eyes.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 8, 2017)

What hax does Madara have to kill the Saiyan's with again? Raditz scales to small planet level too so it literally makes no difference which Saiyan you use, either Madara haxes them or they stomp.


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## John Wayne (Aug 8, 2017)

Jubijin Madara took kakashi's eye so he has Kamui if you give him everything.


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

Everyone knows Nappa, I won't talk too much about him.

Nappa is stronger and faster. No doubt about it. But he's dumb as fuck. He tends to lose his composure as soon as he's outmatched.
Madara can made wood clones with Susano'o, has Rinnegan and can absorb energy based attacks. And can just soul fuck him, Nappa has no shown resistance to this kind of ability.

Since this is Madara with both his eyes, he can use Limbo too and his original Rinnegan abilities.

No Kamui.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Aug 8, 2017)

Yagami1211 said:


> No Kamui.



You restrict one of the few things that can actually give Madara the win. In any case, people here agree that Naruto even at his strongest, and he is above Juubidara, loses against Raditz, so we can pleasurably see Nappa stomp Juubidara to the ground with no effort.


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## Vicotex (Aug 8, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> You restrict one of the few things that can actually give Madara the win. In any case, people here agree that Naruto even at his strongest, and he is above Juubidara, loses against Raditz, so we can pleasurably see Nappa stomp Juubidara to the ground with no effort.


 the shit is that madara is more haxxed than naruto. and his had will help him here


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## John Wayne (Aug 8, 2017)

He has no hax besides kamui that will save him from being nuked.


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

John Wayne said:


> He has no hax besides kamui that will save him from being nuked.



Soulfuck ? Repelling attacks ? energy attack and energy drain ? Kage Bunshin ? He can use all of them with clones.
Chibaku Tensei ? If Nappa rushes without thinking he's dead in a second.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Relativistic two fingers. GG.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Lord escanor (Aug 8, 2017)

Nappa lifts two fingers,solos nardo verse

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

I'm gonna go with Madara if, use uses Limbo clones with Susanoo right away. Seeing how in DBZ there is a huge difference between planet busting punches and Ki blast, is shown Madara could potentially take Nappa down. If Madara can absorb Nappa's ki blast, it would mean he Nappa would only have the physical power to hold his own. And a sneak attack with Madara taunts may become a good factor for a win. That's if they are in character.


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

Lord escanor said:


> Nappa lifts two fingers,solos nardo verse



Absorbed GG.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

Yeah, Madara is seriously overpowered on the fact he is a walking army with Perfect Susanoo. We have seen him use up to 25 wood clones, each of them with Susanoo, he can use Limbo, each of them with his powers.


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## LazyWaka (Aug 8, 2017)

Why would we assume that Madara can absorb something that strong?


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Why would we assume that Madara can absorb something that strong?


We have seen him absorb Rasenshuriken while in base, casually. If he could produce energy of Nappa's lv, he could potentially bring down to absorb that much energy. Seeing how others character of his lv can produce shit on that type to split the moon is something he should be able to do himself.


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## Mabel Gleeful (Aug 8, 2017)

Nappa can casually produce moon busting energy. Madara dies from trying to absorb that.


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

Toneri can casually produce moon splitting swords which calculated at small planet lv energy. Madara should more than be capable of working with Nappa.


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## Adamant soul (Aug 8, 2017)

I'd just like to point out Piccolo's moon bust was small planet level and that there's no evidence Madara could absorb Toneri's attack.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Mabel Gleeful (Aug 8, 2017)

Divell said:


> Toneri can casually produce moon splitting swords which calculated at small planet lv energy. Madara should more than be capable of working with Nappa.


Naruto had to dodge that attack and you have to prove Juubidara is on the same level as Toneri or can take an attack of that magnitude. So no, Nappa still blows him up.


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> Naruto had to dodge that attack and you have to prove Juubidara is on the same level as Toneri or can take an attack of that magnitude. So no, Nappa still blows him up.


Naruto got hit head on

Naruto focus all of his energy into fending off the attack,

weakened Madara stop the same attack that was used to knock Toneri away,

Limbo overpowers Naruto,

Hate the game, not the player.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Pretty sure Piccolo is higher into the zettaton range than Toneri and Raditz no sold him on their first encounter, Nappa regards Raditz as fodder. Not to mention that pending relativistic feat from someone weaker than Radditz given their current speed is pure downplay at this point. So, yes, Nappa or Raditz kinda, you know... speedblitz here.


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

Madara can create 25 Wood Clones each as powerful as he is, 4 Limbo Clones just as powerful as he is which could potentially create their own Wood Clones, looking at the 30 Madara with Perfect Susanoo easily as strong as Sasuke's + all the shit he can produce.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Okay, but doesn't really change the speedblitz problem here, let alone fighting multiple characters/cloning doesn't really stack stats like that anyway.


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## Divell (Aug 8, 2017)

Too bad there is no blitzing when Naruto can dodge a light speed attack and Madara has as much fighting senses as he had. As a maximum, we could bee seeing 126 Madaras vs Nappa.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 8, 2017)

So you changed your gimmick from wanking Bleach to wanking Nardo?


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

You're Wack's dick and Aizen's ass just weren't enough for Drivell, so, he needed to settle on Madara to satisfy his urges further.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 8, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> Naruto had to dodge that attack and you have to prove Juubidara is on the same level as Toneri or can take an attack of that magnitude. So no, Nappa still blows him up.


Naruto tanked a small planet level attack head on, using a weaker form than the one he used against Madara.

Also what's stopping Madara from using genjutsu on Nappa?  All he needs to do is look at Nappa and it's over.


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> You're Wack's dick and Aizen's ass just weren't enough for Drivell, so, he needed to settle on Madara to satisfy his urges further.



Or you could debunk what he says.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Yagami1211 said:


> Or you could debunk what he says.



Why should I? He's been selectively downplaying and wanking ever since he joined almost 2 years ago. Have you been living under a rock? Did you not see him in that Onslaught thread for that matter?

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Yagami1211 (Aug 8, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Why should I? He's been selectively downplaying and wanking ever since he joined almost 2 years ago. How long have you been living under a rock since then?



I usually don't come here often.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Yagami1211 said:


> Says the member who joined 8 years after me.



Means nothing if one's been around for so long, but haven't been paying attention recently.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 8, 2017)

Being able to fire an attack that travels at the speed of light doesn't give you light speed reactions (I can fire a gun. I guess that makes me a bullet timer, right?). I.e. Madara is still sitting at MHS+ where he belongs, allowing Nappa to give him the fingers.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Dr. White (Aug 8, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Naruto tanked a small planet level attack head on, using a weaker form than the one he used against Madara.
> 
> Also what's stopping Madara from using genjutsu on Nappa?  All he needs to do is look at Nappa and it's over.


Except he got stronger from rikudo buff and over time since the last like everyone else in that movie.

Nappa is also much much faster.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 8, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Being able to fire an attack that travels at the speed of light doesn't give you light speed reactions (I can fire a gun. I guess that makes me a bullet timer, right?). I.e. Madara is still sitting at MHS+ where he belongs, allowing Nappa to give him the fingers.



I'm not saying Madaras attack is LS, however, Naruto did dodge his attack at point blank range, meaning Madara would also have LS reacton, if the attack indeed is LS.

Also, what's preventing Madara from genjutsuing Nappa just by looking at him?



Dr. White said:


> Except he got stronger from rikudo buff and over time since the last like everyone else in that movie.
> 
> Nappa is also much much faster.


When was that ever stated? Sure, everyone else got stronger, but when was it stated got a lot stronger in his lower forms?

How fast is Nappa.


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## Dr. White (Aug 8, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> I'm not saying Madaras attack is LS, however, Naruto did dodge his attack at point blank range, meaning Madara would also have LS reacton, if the attack indeed is LS.
> 
> Also, what's preventing Madara from genjutsuing Nappa just by looking at him?
> 
> ...


It's lmao obvious, did you miss naruto fighting stronger people in base and kcm mode?

Immediately after getting rikudo chakra he kicked away tbb and three an frs strong enough to blaze madara and the tree... c'mon dog

Nappa is sub rela, and no madara is nowhere near Ls


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## SSBMonado (Aug 8, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> I'm not saying Madaras attack is LS, however, Naruto did dodge his attack at point blank range, meaning Madara would also have LS reacton, if the attack indeed is LS.


Aim dodging is a thing, and Nardo has attack precog



> Also, what's preventing Madara from genjutsuing Nappa just by looking at him?


Nappa punching a hole through Madara's face should prevent him, no?


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## GoldGournetChef (Aug 8, 2017)

Wait don't we take the last naruto as weaker than RSM nardo


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 8, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> It's lmao obvious, did you miss naruto fighting stronger people in base and kcm mode?


Umm what are you talking about exactly?

Who did he fight in base or KCM in the movie that was stronger than Juubi dara? When was that ever confirmed?



Dr. White said:


> Immediately after getting rikudo chakra he kicked away tbb and three an frs strong enough to blaze madara and the tree... c'mon dog



Yes, I know the feats, what's your point? Why are you implying that I said Naruto's other forms didn't also become stronger?


Regardless if Naruto became stronger, where's the evidence that his strongest form during the war arc, is weaker than his KCM mode or base form in the movie?



Dr. White said:


> *Nappa is sub rela*


Link to calc? 



SSBMonado said:


> Aim dodging is a thing, and Nardo has attack precog


True



SSBMonado said:


> Nappa punching a hole through Madara's face should prevent him, no?


What's Nappa's speed


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> What's Nappa's speed



 The current calc is extreme downplay because it assumes the Moon is closer to Earth than it is in real life. Then, I posted an image for Toriyama's interview that confirms this isn't the case and is in fact equal to the distance in real life. The average distance between the Moon and Earth is 384,000,000 meters apart, so, even if took a minute for Piccolo's ki blast to reach it, that would still be subrelativistic... which frankly is fucking retarded because nobody is gonna wait that long for that to happen mid-battle. More reasonable time frame would be several seconds at most, which would make it relativistic no matter how you put it.

 Mind you, Nappa > Raditz > Piccolo in that arc, so... yeah


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 8, 2017)

I remember that feat always being classified as an outlier, whenever someone brought it up. So, the feat is no longer considered an outlier? 

Also, why dont you use Dragon Ball Online's version of the feat, IRRC the game is canon and the feat from the game doesn't rely on an assumed timeframe.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 8, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> I remember that feat always being classified as an outlier, whenever someone brought it up. So, the feat is no longer considered an outlier?



 The outlier arguments usually were pretty weak since it boiled down to "these numbers are too high, I don't like it" and similar. I honestly don't consider it an since you'd have to consider base Frieza's feat an outlier and just about any other retroactive upgrade calc the same as well... which starts to get silly since it just gives room to abuse the word outlier if someone merely dislikes a calc.



Ayy lmao said:


> Also, why dont you use Dragon Ball Online's version of the feat, IRRC the game is canon and the feat from the game doesn't rely on an assumed timeframe.



 I believe that one was thrown out because it took place in a parallel timeline and DBS rising into canon status pretty much killed DBO's former canon status anyway.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 8, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> The outlier arguments usually were pretty weak since it boiled down to "these numbers are too high, I don't like it" and similar. I honestly don't consider it an since you'd have to consider base Frieza's feat an outlier and just about any other retroactive upgrade calc the same as well... which starts to get silly since it just gives room to abuse the word outlier if someone merely dislikes a calc.


I'm not sure what classifies as an outlier, but I agree it shouldn't be considered as such. 



Ampchu said:


> I believe that one was thrown out because it took place in a parallel timeline and DBS rising into canon status pretty much killed DBO's former canon status anyway.


Well, nevermind then.


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## Jag77 (Aug 9, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> Wait don't we take the last naruto as weaker than RSM nardo



No 
Well, at least...we shouldn't. 

The Last Naruto traded away the other 8 Bijuu's chakra away for the other half of the Kyuubi. 

And we saw that just half of the Kyuubi is > 5 other Bijuu. 

Soooo The Last Naruto having all of the Asura chakra activated + The Yin-Yang Kyuubi should be superior. 

He just can't regrow eyes anymore.


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## IshidaQuincy (Aug 9, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Also, what's preventing Madara from genjutsuing Nappa just by looking at him?



Because you can't genjutsu an afterimage (which is how fast Nappa is compared to Madara)


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## Shining Force (Aug 9, 2017)

The only way for Madara to win is to use Infinite Tsukuyomi right off the bat. If not, he would go down after some struggle (as he can swap himself with Limbo clones, it would make Nappa hard to aim/hit). But if Madara gets cocky and tries to take Nappa's attacks directly, which he would likely do in an in-character match, he would get obliterated.


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## shade0180 (Aug 9, 2017)

Shining Force said:


> (as he can swap himself with Limbo clones, it would m*ake Nappa hard to aim/hit)*





Two fingers... AoE is really large......

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Jag77 said:


> No
> Well, at least...we shouldn't.
> 
> The Last Naruto traded away the other 8 Bijuu's chakra away for the other half of the Kyuubi.
> ...


Technically 1 half of a Kyuubi = 2 - 7 tails right? Wouldn't then The Last be weaker than Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto? Then again, Naruto had only a small portion of the rest of the Bijuu.


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> The current calc is extreme downplay because it assumes the Moon is closer to Earth than it is in real life. Then, I posted an image for Toriyama's interview that confirms this isn't the case and is in fact equal to the distance in real life. The average distance between the Moon and Earth is 384,000,000 meters apart, so, even if took a minute for Piccolo's ki blast to reach it, that would still be subrelativistic... which frankly is fucking retarded because nobody is gonna wait that long for that to happen mid-battle. More reasonable time frame would be several seconds at most, which would make it relativistic no matter how you put it.
> 
> Mind you, Nappa > Raditz > Piccolo in that arc, so... yeah


Neither reacted to the attack though.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> Neither reacted to the attack though.



 You do realize superhuman physical stats like strength, durability and speed derive from the fighter's ki, right? That's been a known and long-established fact in Dragon Ball for years to the point we've seen ki contrails that tell us "oh, they can use ki to boost their movements like that too." What's next, are we gonna resurrect "split durability" too?


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> You do realize superhuman physical stats like strength, durability and speed derive from the fighter's ki, right? That's been a known and long-established fact in Dragon Ball for years to the point we've seen ki contrails that tell us "oh, they can use ki to boost their movements like that too." What's next, are we gonna resurrect "split durability" too?


So you're telling me. Because they are able to tank something, they are able to react to something? Also, you are taking Nappa and Raditz as if having the brain to use their Ki to power up, more so, to use the Ki other than to fire laser beams.


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## shade0180 (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> Wouldn't then The Last be weaker than Six Paths Sage Mode Naruto?



It's pretty much establish by this point that full Kyuubi > all of the other bijuu combine, so no..

considering half kyuubi pretty much = 5 of the biju combined attack..


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> It's pretty much establish by this point that full Kyuubi > all of the other bijuu combine, so no..
> 
> considering half kyuubi pretty much = 5 of the biju combined attack..


Ok. So technically guys like Toneri are stronger than Madara, Kaguya, etc. Considering he was fighting somewhat even against naruto.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> So you're telling me. Because they are able to tank something, they are able to react to something? Also, you are taking Nappa and Raditz as if having the brain to use their Ki to power up, more so, to use the Ki other than to fire laser beams.



I'm not gonna try to explain it again, I'll just let every other person knowledgeable in DB take a shot at you instead on why ki reinforces physical stats.

Raditz isn't an idiot, he was trying to persuade Goku to his cause. It would have been pretty dumb of him to kill Goku right off the bat considering that goes against his own motive at the time. Raditz actually stopped fucking around when he expended his means to get Goku on his side and even outwitted him with bluffs and feints. I don't think Raditz is gonna give a shit about Madara and just blow him up right there.

Nappa's stupidity can actually work in his favor since he's actually far more ruthless without Vegeta babysitting him. Since Vegeta isn't here and there is no motive to preserve Naruto's planet (aka: acquiring the Dragon Balls), Nappa's gonna blow up Madara right there just because he finds the idea fun. He doesn't give a shit about Madara either.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Not to mention that is most certainly a double standard to presume ki doesn't affect physical stats in DB given nobody reacted to You're Wack's telekinesis feat either, the best speed feat in Bleach, yet it got extrapolated to everything he can do and even got powerscaled to Ichigo and Aizen anyway. Fuck off with that shit.


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> I'm not gonna try to explain it again, I'll just let every other person knowledgeable in DB take a shot at you instead on why ki reinforces physical stats.
> 
> Raditz isn't an idiot, he was trying to persuade Goku to his cause. It would have been pretty dumb of him to kill Goku right off the bat considering that goes against his own motive at the time. Raditz actually stopped fucking around when he expended his means to get Goku on his side and even outwitted him with bluffs and feints. I don't think Raditz is gonna give a shit about Madara and just blow him up right there.
> 
> Nappa's stupidity can actually work in his favor since he's actually far more ruthless without Vegeta babysitting him. Since Vegeta isn't here and there is no motive to preserve Naruto's planet (aka: acquiring the Dragon Balls), Nappa's gonna blow up Madara right there just because he finds the idea fun. He doesn't give a shit about Madara either.


And all fo this translates to Nappa and Raditz being able to react to a subrelativistic attack how again?


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Not to mention that is most certainly a double standard to presume ki doesn't affect physical stats in DB given nobody reacted to You're Wack's telekinesis feat either, the best speed feat in Bleach, yet it got extrapolated to everything he can do and even got power scaled to Ichigo and Aizen anyway. Fuck off with that shit.


Two things, Yhwach blitzed Ichigo and reacted to the ones making the Hypersonic feat. And in DBZ we got Nappa and Raditz outspending Piccolo and overpowering, and taking his best attacks. that's all we got. No reason to scale them to subrelativistic.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> And all fo this translates to Nappa and Raditz being able to react to a subrelativistic attack how again?



 *Relativistic

  Because subscribing to the travel speed fallacy is dishonest. Won't try explaining it again since you'll just pull another attempt at wank or downplay out of your ass anyway. You stonewall like this in practically every thread knowing full-well that you're a desperate liar.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> Yhwach blitzed Ichigo and reacted to the ones making the Hypersonic feat.



Prove that they reacted to the actual speed feat that was calced then. Go on, it can't be that hard, right? You're so sure about that powerscaling shouldn't apply and thus you can totally prove that Ichigo was reacting to Yhwach when he did the very TK feat that was being calced.


*Spoiler*: __ 



You can't.


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## John Wayne (Aug 9, 2017)

Don't be so hard on him Ampchu, that's like trying to prove Ichigo isn't a bitch that needs a pick me up every other chapter.

You can't.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## SSBMonado (Aug 9, 2017)

At least as far as I'm aware, there has never been a case where a DB character was speedblitzed by a ki attack from an equal opponent. 
For all intends and purposes, beam speed is always equal to reaction speed. Hell, if anything reaction speed seems to be above beam speed in most cases, given how often people need to employ some sort of trick to get their finishers to land 

So yeah, PL 400 Piccolo's beam was relativistic. Nappa managed to dodge a beam from PL 1200 Piccolo when it was already only about a meter away from his chrome dome. 
Hence, Nappa is casually relativistic and speedblitzes.

The in-character mindset doesn't help Madara at all. On the contrary. Madara is likely to launch into a minute-long tirade about how great he is, while Nappa would see him as nothing but another fly to be squashed. Odds are Nappa would go for that attack he used to sever Tien's arm for a bit of fun. Except Madara isn't fast enough to put up his guard, meaning the attack would send his head flying to the moon instead.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Divell (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> *Relativistic
> 
> Because subscribing to the travel speed fallacy is dishonest. Won't try explaining it again since you'll just pull another attempt at wank or downplay out of your ass anyway. You stonewall like this in practically every thread knowing full-well that you're a desperate liar.


In other words, you have no actual proof, Nappa can scale to Piccolo's Ki blast.



Ampchu said:


> Prove that they reacted to the actual speed feat that was calced then. Go on, it can't be that hard, right? You're so sure about that powerscaling shouldn't apply and thus you can totally prove that Ichigo was reacting to Yhwach when he did the very TK feat that was being calced.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


Dude. Mimihagi moved upwards, as soon as Yhwach grabbed him, he attacked him, and Yhwach destroy him. That's all you need for that.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> In other words, you have no actual proof, Nappa can scale to Piccolo's Ki blast.



 Read Ssbmonado's post corroborating with my previous ones. Not gonna try to explain again because you don't deserve it.



Divell said:


> Dude. Mimihagi moved upwards, as soon as Yhwach grabbed him, he attacked him, and Yhwach destroy him. That's all you need for that.



 In other words, Ichigo didn't actually do this in the exact event the calced feat occurred. It's obviously not valid because powerscaling is not allowed by your logic. See how your opposition of powerscaling works against your favorite things too?


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## Juan (Aug 9, 2017)

Didn't Raditz dodge Piccolo's Makkankosafuckyou, which is stupidly stronger than his casual moon blast? 

Bear in mind Raditz was cathatonic about the attack and only tried dodging after it was right next to him.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## shade0180 (Aug 9, 2017)

Jjcb said:


> Didn't Raditz dodge Piccolo's Makkankosafuckyou, which is stupidly stronger than his casual moon blast?
> 
> Bear in mind Raditz was cathatonic about the attack and only tried dodging after it was right next to him.



There's also nappa dodging a ki attack from stronger Z fighter than piccolo who destroyed the moon.


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## Alita (Aug 9, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> You restrict one of the few things that can actually give Madara the win. In any case, people here agree that Naruto even at his strongest, and he is above Juubidara, loses against Raditz, so we can pleasurably see Nappa stomp Juubidara to the ground with no effort.



Juudara is stronger than Naruto by himself. Naruto only had a shot at full power madara cause sasuke was with him and him and sasuke had a sealing tech that could have dealt with him. Without that Naruto coulden't kill madara due to to versatility, immoratality and regen. 

And kamui isn't the only thing in madara's arsenal that can deal with dbz characters. Planetary mind rape can sure as hell work on them since nobody in dbz has resisted mind rape on that scale. Soul fuck can certainly work too. 

If piccolo's moon buster is really relativistic now than madara loses. If not then he wins due to superior speed and hax.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 9, 2017)

Divell said:


> In other words, you have no actual proof, Nappa can scale to Piccolo's Ki blast.


 





Nappa>>>>>Raditz>>Special beam canon>>> Piccolo's moonbusting kiblast


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## Alita (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Pretty sure Piccolo is higher into the zettaton range than Toneri and Raditz no sold him on their first encounter, Nappa regards Raditz as fodder. Not to mention that pending relativistic feat from someone weaker than Radditz given their current speed is pure downplay at this point. So, yes, Nappa or Raditz kinda, you know... speedblitz here.


 I don't remember raddiz outrunning piccolo's ki blasts just reacting to them. So shouldn't him and nappa only be relativistic for reaction and attack speed rather than long distance movement? This is of course assuming that calc really is relativistic now. (You should probably do a thread on it just in case.)


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> I don't remember raddiz outrunning piccolo's ki blasts just reacting to them. So shouldn't him and nappa only be relativistic for reaction and attack speed rather than long distance movement? This is of course assuming that calc really is relativistic now. (You should probably do a thread on it just in case.)



 Been pretty much suggesting it's a combat/reaction thing, yeah, although short speed bursts are a common thing in DB part 2 on onward too. Overwhelming an opponent with the sheer speed of a projectile still is a speedblitz regardless.


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## Alita (Aug 9, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Been pretty much suggesting it's a combat/reaction thing, yeah, although short speed bursts are a common thing in DB part 2 on onward too. Overwhelming an opponent with the sheer speed of a projectile still is a speedblitz regardless.



Madara only needs to be as fast as a projectile if he is trying to avoid it from point blank range. From a distance someone of madara's speed level should be able to doge it. Standard starting distance last I checked is 20 meters. If madara keeps his distance and use mugen tsuyokomi immediately he could still win.


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## Alita (Aug 9, 2017)

I was saying that more in regards to madara vs raddiz who doesn't have aoe attacks like that.

Tho I disagree with SSBMonado's portrayal of madara. I feel like in character he would probably go for genjutsu early on since that's usually what uchiha like to do to make the battle end quick and I'm not sure he'd play around and talk shit with someone he doesn't even know.

Also nappa would need to destroy his body completely. Mere decapitation won't work due to his immortality as we saw when sasuke cut him down. He would just regen.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 9, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> I was saying that more in regards to madara vs raddiz who doesn't have aoe attacks like that.



 Raditz still has pretty decent AoE if those very casual ki beams blowing up a mountain range during that battle he had against Goku and Piccolo. It's quite spammable as shown in that scene too.



Alita54 said:


> Also nappa would need to destroy his body completely. Mere decapitation won't work due to his immortality as we saw when sasuke cut him down. He would just regen.



 That's easily mitigated since Nappa in-character likes to blow things up for fun anyway. Regeneration is kinda useless if Nappa decided to spam small planet level+ attacks just because he wanted to see pretty explosions until there is nothing to regenerate from left.

 Not saying that Nappa or Raditz will win every time, but they have significantly more chances to win against Madara than Madara has against either one of them. A straight up scenario like this where there are no Dragon Balls to worry about means Nappa or Raditz will just wipe out Madara right off the bat like the Saiyans do when exterminating planets of all threats.


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## Imagine (Aug 9, 2017)

Guys..holy shit Nappa can dodge Piccolo's ki blasts. That shit came from a Piccolo WEAKER than the Piccolo that fought Nappa/Vegeta. Nappa was flat out superior to Piccolo.

What's with the overly anal scrutiny on something so simple.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 10, 2017)

Jag77 said:


> No
> Well, at least...we shouldn't.
> 
> The Last Naruto traded away the other 8 Bijuu's chakra away for the other half of the Kyuubi.
> ...


Uh Naruto never traded away the other eight Biju's chakra. Hagoromo said he's be the 'meeting place' there for as long as he was alive thus would retain the Biju Chakra within him. He just got upgraded by having a full Kurama form.


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## trance (Aug 10, 2017)

Nappa solos with two fingers


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## GoldGournetChef (Aug 10, 2017)

Jag77 said:


> No
> Well, at least...we shouldn't.
> 
> The Last Naruto traded away the other 8 Bijuu's chakra away for the other half of the Kyuubi.
> ...


So toneri is stronger than mads and kags


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## shade0180 (Aug 10, 2017)

GoldGournetChef said:


> So toneri is stronger than mads and kags



No, not Kaguya. Kaguya wasn't even really beaten. It was due to a number of CIS and PIS that put her down.


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## Lucy75 (Aug 11, 2017)

I just want to point out that juubijin madara is definitely more powerful than toneri. Unlike toneri he is immortal and can regenerate and is more versatile with stuff like mugen tsuyokomi, limbo clones, rinnengan powers, etc. And his moon level CT's were casual as hell (Called them raindrops.) so it's not unbelievable that fighting seriously he'd have as much power as toneri. It also took both Naruto and sasuke to stand a chance against him and even they were having a hard time. Toneri was mostly dealt with by Naruto alone.



Ampchu said:


> The current calc is extreme downplay because it assumes the Moon is closer to Earth than it is in real life. Then, I posted an image for Toriyama's interview that confirms this isn't the case and is in fact equal to the distance in real life. The average distance between the Moon and Earth is 384,000,000 meters apart, so, even if took a minute for Piccolo's ki blast to reach it, that would still be subrelativistic... which frankly is fucking retarded because nobody is gonna wait that long for that to happen mid-battle. More reasonable time frame would be several seconds at most, which would make it relativistic no matter how you put it.
> 
> Mind you, Nappa > Raditz > Piccolo in that arc, so... yeah


 
Wasn't the energy yield for piccolo's blast obtained via kinetic energy? If so you can't use an assumed timeframe for it's speed cause it would invalidate the energy calc since assumed time frames can't be used with kinetic energy. And a assumed timeframe would effect the KE calc I would presume. Also don't OBD rules only allow a assumed timeframe of 1 minute max at the shortest?


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## Nep Heart (Aug 11, 2017)

Lucy75 said:


> Wasn't the energy yield for piccolo's blast obtained via kinetic energy? If so you can't use an assumed timeframe for it's speed cause it would invalidate the energy calc since assumed time frames can't be used with kinetic energy. And a assumed timeframe would effect the KE calc I would presume. Also don't OBD rules only allow a assumed timeframe of 1 minute max at the shortest?



 The KE calc is actually different from the beam speed calc. The time frame for the Moon to explode was based on the speed of a falling pebble under the influence of gravity. Also, just because OBD made that rule doesn't necessarily make it absolute given we have a lot of outdated practices which frankly could use revision. Just look at how outdated the concept articles are at the OBD wiki (sans "conceptual manipulation" because I updated that one). 

 Personally, I don't uphold tradition if its apparent flaws warrants scrutiny anyway. Change is sometimes necessary.


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 12, 2017)

Nappa nukes him, man. He just lifts two fingers and 'kabaaam' as dead(er)? as when raditz got blown by vegeta. Vicotex.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Jag77 (Aug 12, 2017)

What's the highest speed for the Narutoverse atm? I keep getting told different answers.


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## SomnusUltima (Aug 13, 2017)

Naruto moon = 10km


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## LazyWaka (Aug 13, 2017)

SomnusUltima said:


> Naruto moon = 10km



You so funny. 



Jag77 said:


> What's the highest speed for the Narutoverse atm? I keep getting told different answers.



Mach 7500 is the highest currently.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

Is piccolo's moon feat accepted as legit and not an outlier?
If yes,then nappa should win. If no,then I don't think he can beat madara.


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Is piccolo's moon feat accepted as legit and not an outlier?
> If yes,then nappa should win. If no,then I don't think he can beat madara.


2 fingers.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> 2 fingers.


that would be if the piccolo one is accepted though. Otherwise,IIRC nappa would be somewhere around continental and a lot slower,perfectly in the hitting range of madara.


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## Nep Heart (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> that would be if the piccolo one is accepted though. Otherwise,IIRC nappa would be somewhere around continental and a lot slower,perfectly in the hitting range of madara.



 Then you're most definitely a few years too late, there has been two small planet level+ calcs that have been accepted for a while already. What really is pending is people ceasing from throwing around the word "outlier" assisted with really weak arguments like "it's too high, I don't like it" and purposely trying to downplay the distance of the Moon being closer to Earth than it really is when an interview by Toriyama himself confirmed the distance between the two celestial bodies are actually the same as the real world's. It should be relativistic realistically speaking when context is taking into consideration.

 Really, low-balling for the sake of low-balling is just as dishonest as wank.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

Ampchu said:


> Then you're most definitely a few years too late, there has been two small planet level+ calcs that have been accepted for a while already. What really is pending is people ceasing from throwing around the word "outlier" assisted with really weak arguments like "it's too high, I don't like it" and purposely trying to downplay the distance of the Moon being closer to Earth than it really is when an interview by Toriyama himself confirmed the distance between the two celestial bodies are actually the same as the real world's. It should be relativistic realistically speaking when context is taking into consideration.
> 
> Really, low-balling for the sake of low-balling is just as dishonest as wank.


Yeah I had seen the calc a couple of years ago. But then had stopped reading mangas all together for a while. Recently caught up with most of the ones I wanted to and just joined. Which 2 calcs are you talking about? Well the thing is,if the piccolo's is still not accepted,then nappa doesn't even have the necessary speed to speedblitz. though IC madara would probably start bullshitting about how great he is and crap,I really think a genjutsu right off the bat by madara(since kamui is restricted) will take care of madara needing to survive whatever nappa can throw.


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

Nappa doesn't need to blitz.. he just needs to hit with a sufficient AoE large enough to cover an area Madara cannot get out of in time of the explosion which is basically leads to him using two fingers.

 because 2 fingers AoE literally can cover half of a continent...


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## Nep Heart (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Well the thing is,if the piccolo's is still not accepted,then nappa doesn't even have the necessary speed to speedblitz.



 It's not really so much as "not accepted" as much as "people just seemed to have stopped caring anymore"... which hasn't been really helpful for the OBD's engagement in spite of some veterans ironically bitching about that all the time around here. However, there were quite a few people in this thread that agreed calling the feat an "outlier" makes no sense anymore since far looser things have been accepted without question before. I mean, you may as well mark 1st Form Frieza's feat an outlier by the same exact logic. Retroactive upgrades is nothing new and aren't really so-called "outliers" as people claim.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Nappa doesn't need to blitz.. he just needs to hit with a sufficient AoE large enough to cover an area Madara cannot get out of in time of the explosion which is basically leads to him using two fingers.
> 
> because 2 fingers AoE literally can cover half of a continent...


Yes,but if he falls under genjutsu before that,why would madara even make him fire anything.



Ampchu said:


> It's not really so much as "not accepted" as much as "people just seemed to have stopped caring anymore"... which hasn't been really helpful for the OBD's engagement in spite of some veterans ironically bitching about that all the time around here. However, there were quite a few people in this thread that agreed calling the feat an "outlier" makes no sense anymore since far looser things have been accepted without question before. I mean, you may as well mark 1st Form Frieza's feat an outlier by the same exact logic. Retroactive upgrades is nothing new and aren't really so-called "outliers" as people claim.


Well,if the feat is accepted,then yes,nappa casually blows everything around him including madara just because.


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes,but if he falls under genjutsu before that,why would madara even make him fire anything.



Because Madara has genjutsu feats?

 oh wait.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Because Madara has genjutsu feats?
> 
> oh wait.


Oh come on...at least give the poor edo who was the best uchiha till sauce something


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Oh come on...at least give the poor edo who was the best uchiha till sauce something



I did, I let Nappa give him 2 fingers.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> I did, I let Nappa give him 2 fingers.


lol..though one more, IIRC, madara used izanagi to rewrite his death ,right? does he have that? It might give him some time too..


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

Does Izanagi even save you if there is no body left after death?

 just asking,


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Does Izanagi even save you if there is no body left after death?
> 
> just asking,


no idea how reality warping works in naruto and how it would translate over here. That's why I am asking if it can be done.I guess he replaced himself with a kagebunshin in the manga,not sure..


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## LazyWaka (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Does Izanagi even save you if there is no body left after death?
> 
> just asking,



It brought back danzo after he was reduced to a bloody paste and (iirc) vaporized by amaterasu.

Not sure how it works with the rinnegan though.


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

If that was the case It should scale with the rinnegan.


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## Jag77 (Aug 13, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> You so funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Mach 7500 is the highest currently.



And what about Sage Art: Storm Release - Light Fang? 

And the databook statement on top of that?


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

Jag77 said:


> And what about Sage Art: Storm Release - Light Fang?
> 
> And the databook statement on top of that?



we really don't take the databook as seriously after it introduce Haku.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> If that was the case It should scale with the rinnegan.


So this can maybe give madara the time he needs to launch a sneak MF attack. Unless nappa goes ham and destroys the planet. Maybe he can stand a chance.


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## Lucy75 (Aug 13, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> You so funny.
> 
> 
> 
> Mach 7500 is the highest currently.


I thought the highest was mach 17,000. Where did the mach 7,500 come from?


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## Lucy75 (Aug 13, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Because Madara has genjutsu feats?
> 
> oh wait.


He genjutsu'd both kyuubi and the raikage. No reason to believe he can't genjutsu nappa.


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## shade0180 (Aug 13, 2017)

12zoro said:


> So this can maybe give madara the time he needs to launch a sneak MF attack.



No it just means nappa would give him 6 fingers instead of 2.


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## LazyWaka (Aug 13, 2017)

Madara's lightfang is probably light speed, but it doesn't scale to anyone nor is it strong enough to hurt nappa, so its pretty irrelevant.


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## Lucy75 (Aug 13, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> Madara's lightfang is probably light speed, but it doesn't scale to anyone nor is it strong enough to hurt nappa, so its pretty irrelevant.


 Naruto doged it at close range though. So shouldn't he have reactions at least around if not at that speed?


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## LazyWaka (Aug 13, 2017)

We cant tell if that was an aim dodge or not.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 14, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> No it just means nappa would give him 6 fingers instead of 2.


I wonder why nappa would need 2 fingers to be used on a completely blind man...


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## shade0180 (Aug 14, 2017)

12zoro said:


> I wonder why nappa would need 2 fingers to be used on a completely blind man...


Because he's nappa deal with it.


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## Roman (Aug 14, 2017)

Divell said:


> Toneri can casually produce moon splitting swords which calculated at small planet lv energy. Madara should more than be capable of working with Nappa.



Naruto was beating the everyliving shit out of Madara and Naruto in The Last was even stronger than that. There's no reason Madara should scale to Toneri and by extension, he shouldn't be able to absorb any attack of the magnitude showcased by either Naruto or Toneri during the fight. Nappa's Giant Storm is leagues above anything Naruto dished out in The Last, so why would Madara be able to just absorb that?

And regardless of how much hax Madara has, it won't help him when Nappa can just blitz.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Aug 14, 2017)

12zoro said:


> nappa would be somewhere around continental



>Nappa
>continental



an attack of that level would at best register as a tickle to Nappa


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## neoacacia (Aug 14, 2017)

Nappa is atleast moon level


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## LyricalMessiah (Aug 14, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Is piccolo's moon feat accepted as legit and not an outlier?
> If yes,then nappa should win. If no,then I don't think he can beat madara.


Of course it's accepted cause he did it on panel. He literally destroyed the moon and someone x10 stronger than him could replicate it with sheer ease. Piccolo moonbusted at his weakest. Even Roshi Moonbusted. Nappa eats Madara btw.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 14, 2017)

LyricalMessiah said:


> Of course it's accepted cause he did it on panel. He literally destroyed the moon and someone x10 stronger than him could replicate it with sheer ease. Piccolo moonbusted at his weakest. Even Roshi Moonbusted. *Nappa eats Madara btw*.


No, that would be Yajirobe

Reactions: Funny 1


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## kluang (Aug 14, 2017)

Will Nappa sings patty cake while destroying Madera?

Reactions: Like 1


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## g4snake108 (Aug 14, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> >Nappa
> >continental
> 
> 
> ...


I only knew of 2 calcs for db during that era that would be useful here-tha nappa two fingers which was calced at somewhere around country-continental and the piccolo moon buster. I have no idea of any other ones. But yeah ,like I said,piccolo getting scaled to the moon level makes this a one sided affair in favor of nappa.



LyricalMessiah said:


> Of course it's accepted cause he did it on panel. He literally destroyed the moon and someone x10 stronger than him could replicate it with sheer ease. Piccolo moonbusted at his weakest. Even Roshi Moonbusted. Nappa eats Madara btw.


There was a debate going on the last I knew. Its accepted means that this becomes a stomp.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 15, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> we really don't take the databook as seriously after it introduce Haku


Why is that? The databook and manga were both written by Kishimoto, and regarding Haku, the databook does in no way contradict anything from the manga about Haku. I don't understand why people still continue to say this



Roman said:


> Naruto was beating the everyliving shit out of Madara


* A weaker Madara, who had not absorbed the Shinju Tree and only had 1 Rinnegan. If Naruto could be fully powered Madara on his own, he had no reason to tell Madara " WE will defeat you".


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## John Wayne (Aug 15, 2017)

Naruto himself is all about friendship and working together as a team to accomplish the goal. He would have used "we" no matter the context, unless he was literally alone.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 15, 2017)

He's a fucking shounen protagonist. Of course he's gonna use "we".

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 15, 2017)

Well,I dont recall Naruto ever saying something similar in similar context. When has Naruto ever said "We" when doing something completely on his own? Or not needing others help?

 Regardless, my point still stands, Naruto humiliated a weak version of Juubidara, thus it isn't evidence that Toneri is stronger than a fully powered Madara.


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## Ferrothorn (Aug 15, 2017)

Nappa lifts two fingers


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 15, 2017)

LazyWaka said:


> We cant tell if that was an aim dodge or not.


The attack was lightspeed and Naruto didnt dodge it, he dodged Madara swinging his head to the side. So it doesnt scale to anyone


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## Keishin (Aug 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> The attack was lightspeed and Naruto didnt dodge it, he dodged Madara swinging his head to the side. So it doesnt scale to anyone


That's about as light speed as Kid Goku

Reactions: Like 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Aug 15, 2017)

Keishin said:


> That's about as light speed as Kid Goku


FTL sunglasses Goku is totally a thing

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mabel Gleeful (Aug 15, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> Why is that? The databook and manga were both written by Kishimoto, and regarding Haku, the databook does in no way contradict anything from the manga about Haku. I don't understand why people still continue to say this



Because author statements can be disregarded if they blatantly contradict the source material. If I'm not wrong, Kishimoto also stated that Kakashi was the same speed as a storm, which is against everything Kakashi showed in his fight against Zabuza. There also isn't a single light speed feat after Haku with the exception of Madara's beam (occurring hundreds of chapters afterwards), not even during combat, and Naruto and co get tagged by far slower attacks than that. Kishimoto also never stated again, to my knowledge anyway, that Haku or anyone was light speed.


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## Ayy lmao (Aug 15, 2017)

Mabel Gleeful said:


> Because author statements can be disregarded if they blatantly contradict the source material. If I'm not wrong, Kishimoto also stated that Kakashi was the same speed as a storm, which is against everything Kakashi showed in his fight against Zabuza. There also isn't a single light speed feat after Haku with the exception of Madara's beam (occurring hundreds of chapters afterwards), not even during combat, and Naruto and co get tagged by far slower attacks than that. Kishimoto also never stated again, to my knowledge anyway, that Haku or anyone was light speed.


IRRC Kakashi never showed feats of him being faster than a storm back in the Zabuza arc, though he obviously was. Contrary to popular belief,

Haku was stated to be lightspeed in the manga as well, so, the databook does in no way contradict the manga regarding the speed of Haku. I'm not saying Haku is lightspeed, because him, Naruto and Sasuke during that arc being that fast are obviously outliers feats, however, the databook, at least with the Haku LS thing doesn't contradict the manga.


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## Keishin (Aug 15, 2017)

It does in a sense since the moment that they started calling lightning undodgeable later on in the series. Basically not even Kishimoto recognises that...


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## The World (Aug 16, 2017)

Ayy lmao said:


> IRRC Kakashi never showed feats of him being faster than a storm back in the Zabuza arc, though he obviously was. Contrary to popular belief,
> 
> Haku was stated to be lightspeed in the manga as well, so, the databook does in no way contradict the manga regarding the speed of Haku. I'm not saying Haku is lightspeed, because him, Naruto and Sasuke during that arc being that fast are obviously outliers feats, however, the databook, at least with the Haku LS thing doesn't contradict the manga.


He's LS in the sense that he can reflect himself off his mirrors. Once he leaves the mirrors to attack, his speed is drastically different.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## John Wayne (Aug 16, 2017)

Didn't kyuubi chakra cloak Naruto catch up to him while he was mid transition though?


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## shade0180 (Aug 16, 2017)

John Wayne said:


> Didn't kyuubi chakra cloak Naruto catch up to him while he was mid transition though?


Sauce also was seeing him move between the mirror while he was transitioning.


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## NightmareCinema (Aug 16, 2017)

Nappa's relativistic so even if Madara's lightspeed, it's not gonna be a blitz.

Meaning Madara still gets the two fingers treatment from Nappa.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## uchihakil (Aug 17, 2017)

Madara wins, genjutsu is a GG, and madara can pretty much absorb his Ki blasts or use limbo to create openings, izanagi is also a thing ( a genjutsu with the ability to change reality, pretty much like a reset button) madara has the hax advantage. Along with goudodama hax, soul rip hax etc


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## uchihakil (Aug 17, 2017)

Roman said:


> Naruto was beating the everyliving shit out of Madara and Naruto in The Last was even stronger than that. There's no reason Madara should scale to Toneri and by extension, he shouldn't be able to absorb any attack of the magnitude showcased by either Naruto or Toneri during the fight. Nappa's Giant Storm is leagues above anything Naruto dished out in The Last, so why would Madara be able to just absorb that?
> 
> And regardless of how much hax Madara has, it won't help him when Nappa can just blitz.




No, naruto wasn't beating the shit out of madara, he only landed his attack once (Senpou youton RS) which had little to no effect on madara, madara blocked his initial punch even while he was healing and not even nearly at his peak (no shinjuu, his second rinnegan and third) Madara >>>>> Naruto alone, they needed combined effort to stop 1 of his limbo, just 1, naruto's ass was saved from muugen tsukiyomi, clearly madara is superior, its fucking clear


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> Madara wins, genjutsu is a GG, and madara can pretty much absorb his Ki blasts or use limbo to create openings, izanagi is also a thing ( a genjutsu with the ability to change reality, pretty much like a reset button) madara has the hax advantage. Along with goudodama hax, soul rip hax etc


In db if one's power is greater than the hax users than the hax will fail. Choaz' telekinesis had 0 effect on Nappa. Kami stated he had nothing that would work on the Saiyans. The same guy who can totally control normal humans with mind control. Hell the fucking wish granting dragon couldn't wish for them to be dead and he is living  fucking hax. 

These are all haxes that in series would not work on Nappa. There's more instances of hax not working due to power but I am simply showing the character in this threads' resistance.

Hax will only work in DB if your in  a similar ball park to your opponent.


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## uchihakil (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> In db if one's power is greater than the hax users than the hax will fail. Choaz' telekinesis had 0 effect on Nappa. Kami stated he had nothing that would work on the Saiyans. The same guy who can totally control normal humans with mind control. Hell the fucking wish granting dragon couldn't wish for them to be dead and he is living  fucking hax.
> 
> These are all haxes that in series would not work on Nappa. There's more instances of hax not working due to power but I am simply showing the character in this threads' resistance.
> 
> Hax will only work in DB if your in  a similar ball park to your opponent.



Thats BS tbh and a shitty excuse of hax abilities not working on characters with higher energy (in many and most shows its the contrary). If said character shows no resistance then he can't counter, and didn't that character with the time manipulation from the ginyu squad time freeze work? Despite having way less energy than the characters he fought.


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## shade0180 (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> In db if one's power is greater than the hax users than the hax will fail. Choaz' telekinesis had 0 effect on Nappa. Kami stated he had nothing that would work on the Saiyans. The same guy who can totally control normal humans with mind control. Hell the fucking wish granting dragon couldn't wish for them to be dead and he is living  fucking hax.
> 
> These are all haxes that in series would not work on Nappa. There's more instances of hax not working due to power but I am simply showing the character in this threads' resistance.
> 
> Hax will only work in DB if your in  a similar ball park to your opponent.



The Dragon Ball doesn't work on anyone stronger than Kami or Piccolo.

because its source of power came from that character.

Telekinesis isn't really a hax.

 your example are dumb and shit that was already explained in series. and they aren't even really hax in a way.


Hax are shit that was used by 
1. Frieza - making krillin explode,
2. Majin Buu - turning something into an inanimate object
3. Bibidi's mind control


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

@Uchihakill Its an in story mechanic of ki. Which is the show we are currently discussing and thus I really don't care how hax operates in other verses.... Don't like it? Well then don't discuss db I guess?.

"If a character shows no resistance than he can't counter"
All of those three examples of hax not working that I used were against Nappa.

Guildos bp was around the same level as krillin and Gohan(all of them were in the 10k range). So him using had on Gohan and krilin fits the established rules in db for such hax.

I don't think there is a single example in all of db where a hax works when someone's power is greater than the users. If there is I'm all ears.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> The Dragon Ball doesn't work on anyone stronger than Kami or Piccolo.
> 
> because its source of power came from that character.
> 
> ...



So you agree the dragon cannot use its hax on anyone that is too strong for it to work? Concession accepted.

Explain why completely shutting down ones body to the point where the user has total control over it isn't hax?

Saying the are explained in series in nice and all. But how where they explained as to not be hax?

Yet Frieza couldn't make ssjgoku budge with his hax telekinesis the same shit that made krillin explore. And yet you claimed in the same post that telekinesis is not hax. So which is it?

Majin buu's candy hax works on people stronger. But vegito still retained all of his power and it was actually a handicap against him. Also vegito wanted to humiliate Buu and showing him that even when his hax hits, it's a hinderence would do just that.

Vegeta let himself be mind controlled and actually over rid the control part and basically did what ever he wanted. Which again proves my point.


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## uchihakil (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> @Uchihakill Its an in story mechanic of ki. Which is the show we are currently discussing and thus I really don't care how hax operates in other verses.... Don't like it? Well then don't discuss db I guess?.
> 
> "If a character shows no resistance than he can't counter"
> All of those three examples of hax not working that I used were against Nappa.
> ...



And you're also debating against a naruto character, and in their verse, hax works even if a character has higher energy (see kaguya vs kakashi and co). Which is also the show we're currently discussing, and your example is a shitty one, if everything is bout power level, Yajirobi wont be able to cut of vegeta's tail, or krillins destructo disc wont be able to do anything to the likes of freiza etc etc


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## shade0180 (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> o you agree the dragon cannot use its hax on anyone that is too strong for it to work? Concession accepted.



are you this dumb?

the limitation isn't because of the dragon. it is because of Kami/Piccolo


SSMG said:


> Explain why completely shutting down ones body to the point where the user has total control over it isn't hax?



because that's not how telekinesis work. it is a *physical exertion* using mental prowess.




SSMG said:


> Yet Frieza couldn't make ssjgoku budge with his hax telekinesis the same shit that made krillin explore. And yet you claimed in the same post that telekinesis is not hax. So which is it?



 he never used it.



SSMG said:


> Majin buu's candy hax works on people stronger. But vegito still retained all of his power and it was actually a handicap against him. Also vegito wanted to humiliate Buu and showing him that even when his hax hits, it's a hinderence would do just that.



That's literally how it always work.. Didn't you read the manga where he had eaten people and they still have the ability to think of what was happening around them including sight.

 Vegito can fly that's why he can still move and fight. It isn't a limitation that's just how that shit was made in series.. again you have no clue about Dragon ball from what I can tell..



SSMG said:


> Vegeta let himself be mind controlled and actually over rid the control part and basically did what ever he wanted. Which again proves my point.



That's a resistance feat for vegita and we all agree to it in another thread.

not a degrade for Babidi's ability.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

uchihakil said:


> And you're also debating against a naruto character, and in their verse, hax works even if a character has higher energy (see kaguya vs kakashi and co). Which is also the show we're currently discussing, and your example is a shitty one, if everything is bout power level, Yajirobi wont be able to cut of vegeta's tail, or krillins destructo disc wont be able to do anything to the likes of freiza etc etc



Ugh we are discussing both. So by you refusing to accept the entire premise of how ki works in relation to hax in db that shows me you aren't interested in having an actual discussion about this. Because hax can work however the hell it wants in Naruto. However when discussing cross over matches you have to take what the established had can do from the series and use the feats from the other series that it's up against to show how it would or wouldn't work. In Dragonball if you're weaker than me, you're hax isn't going to cut it. 

Also even in Naruto hax can be withstood, such as the soul rip hax you brought up.  Naruto resisted it by sheer physical efforts. Gudodama can be blocked with natural energy in verse. Genjutsu is typically used as mind control in cross over matches. And Nappa is resistant to that. Madara cannot absorb as much energy that Nappa can put out. I believe that is all the hax you listed and Nappa should be able to resist all of them.

Your examples in this post I quoted are not hax( both of them were really sharp objects cutting something)) and thus have no value to this current discussion about how hax operates in db.


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## shade0180 (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Naruto resisted it by sheer physical efforts.



He didn't resist it with physical effort he was literally touching his soul and was having a tag of war with pein.

That's shows he can touch souls in RM mode or higher.

 if it is just simply physical effort he isn't going to be able to touch something that is incorporeal.Your approach on this is wrong.

Resisting a hax is not a degrade to it but an upgrade to a character that has shown resistance from said hax.

If magneto resist xavier mind control/mind fuck.

It doesn't mean that Xavier is weak at using his ability. It means Magneto has the ability to resist Xavier's ability.


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## TYPE-Rey (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Because hax can work however the hell it wants in Naruto. However when discussing cross over matches you have to take what the established had can do from the series and use the feats from the other series that it's up against to show how it would or wouldn't work. In Dragonball if you're weaker than me, you're hax isn't going to cut it.


So basically, let's ignore  Naruto and look only at how  DB works right ? ?
There is such a thing as a  energy equivalation rule. I suggest you look it up.
In cross-over battles , if you don't have any feats of resistance against the enemy's hax, you are gonna get affected by it unless of course you can actually dodge, kill your enemy before he uses it.
Not that it makes any difference, Nappa still rapes.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> are you this dumb?
> 
> the limitation isn't because of the dragon. it is because of Kami/Piccolo
> 
> ...


 Concession accepted.

So you claim TK isn't hax yet you yourself used it as an example of hax for Freiza.. so which is it?

Chaos states in chapter 216 pahe 13 "my powers don't work" while having his hands stretched out trying to use tk on Nappa. Maybe brush up on the manga before posting.

Did you miss the part where vegito stated he was as strong as ever? It wasnt just because she could fly. He retained all of his power. Also way to miss the entire point of the scene. That no matter what Buu did. It was useless against vegito, which is what vegito was trying to show him. What better way to do this then let himself be turnt into candy.

I like how you don't understand what the scene is even about yet question my knowledge of db. I think youre speaking from experience.


Wow you really are dumb. My entire point is resistance of hax in db. Not trying to say babidi doesn't have the hax, because he does.


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## uchihakil (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Ugh we are discussing both. So by you refusing to accept the entire premise of how ki works in relation to hax in db that shows me you aren't interested in having an actual discussion about this. Because hax can work however the hell it wants in Naruto. However when discussing cross over matches you have to take what the established had can do from the series and use the feats from the other series that it's up against to show how it would or wouldn't work. In Dragonball if you're weaker than me, you're hax isn't going to cut it.
> 
> Also even in Naruto hax can be withstood, such as the soul rip hax you brought up.  Naruto resisted it by sheer physical efforts. Gudodama can be blocked with natural energy in verse. Genjutsu is typically used as mind control in cross over matches. And Nappa is resistant to that. Madara cannot absorb as much energy that Nappa can put out. I believe that is all the hax you listed and Nappa should be able to resist all of them.
> 
> Your examples in this post I quoted are not hax( both of them were really sharp objects cutting something)) and thus have no value to this current discussion about how hax operates in db.



Reyatsuguy and shade0180 already said it all, I dont need to add anything to what they said.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> He didn't resist it with physical effort he was literally touching his soul and was having a tag of war with pein.
> 
> That's shows he can touch souls in RM mode or higher.
> 
> ...



So you've been agreeing with me the entire time yet you're contesting my points. Makes sense.


reyatsuguy said:


> So basically, let's ignore  Naruto and look only at how  DB works right ? ?
> There is such a thing as a  energy equivalation rule. I suggest you look it up.
> In cross-over battles , if you don't have any feats of resistance against the enemy's hax, you are gonna get affected by it unless of course you can actually dodge, kill your enemy before he uses it.
> Not that it makes any difference, Nappa still rapes.


 I talked about how hax in Naruto isn't the end of be all even in that series.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> I don't think there is a single example in all of db where a hax works when someone's power is greater than the users. If there is I'm all ears.


Babidi is garbage tier in stats, but was able to dominate Dabura, and it took one hell of a lot of effort for Vegeta to resist


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

SSBMonado said:


> Babidi is garbage tier in stats, but was able to dominate Dabura, and it took one hell of a lot of effort for Vegeta to resist



Babidi was able to withstand mutlplie attacks in the Vegeta vs Buu fight. He even lived through vegeta's suicide with a barrier. He isn't as weak as alot of ppl think.


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## SSBMonado (Aug 17, 2017)

SSMG said:


> Babidi was able to withstand mutlplie attacks in the Vegeta vs Buu fight. He even lived through vegeta's suicide with a barrier. He isn't as weak as alot of ppl think.


His barrier is the result of his magic, too, just like his mind control. It has nothing to do with his ki.

Piccolo admitted he was inferior to the Supreme Kai, who was scared shitless of Puipui, who got casually murderstomped by base Vegeta. And yet even though SSJ Vegeta had immense trouble resisting Babidi's mind control, Piccolo was effortlessly able to tear Babidi in two

There clearly is a correlation between ki and hax resistance, but the rules of it aren't nearly defined enough for it to be used here.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

I thought all of babidi "magic" was ki based no?

Also there's the three components of ki, body mind and spirit. So just because babidi's body is weak doesn't mean his overall ki is any less.


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## John Wayne (Aug 17, 2017)

No it's not, it's an entirely separate source of power.


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

John Wayne said:


> No it's not, it's an entirely separate source of power.



Is there a source for this? From a established databook or anything of that sort?


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## Nep Heart (Aug 17, 2017)

Magic is explicitly distinct from ki in Dragon Ball as a whole to the point it's portrayed to specialize in utility/support based powers unlike ki's more offensive oriented purpose. We have cases where a magician has low ki, yet nobody can detect they have blatantly powerful magic. Just like how psychic powers are distinct from either of those two in DB (especially Goku noting Frieza exhibiting a "strange power" when the latter used TK).


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

Source please?  

Also Frieza's tks still ki based. The strange power as he refers to it, was Freiza using his ki in such a manner as tk


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## Nep Heart (Aug 17, 2017)

The source is in the Buu Saga itself establishing the distinction. Shin tells Goku that Babidi's power is weak, but he has troublesome magic. Considering power levels being based on ki levels is practically a prominent theme in Part 2 and onward and the fact magic has never been shown to be something that can be acquired through training like ki has, that already sets the difference there.

... But I feel this is very off topic, why not make a meta thread about this kind of thing instead? The thread itself is pretty pointless to go on with when the victor has been established pages ago. This thread could be put out of its misery. @MusubiKazesaru @KaiserWombat


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## SSMG (Aug 17, 2017)

Good call I will make another topic for this discussion. We all agree Nappa wins this.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Aug 17, 2017)

Sounds good.


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