# Tobirama Vs Itachi



## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

Location: VOTE
Knowledge: none
Restrictions: FULL Susanoo. 
State of Mind: IFC WIN/ LOSE
Distance: 40 Meters

Well, I see some people think of Tobirama as greater than Itachi, Minato ,,,etc 
even though he showed nothing, so I was wondering what he can do by his current feat. 

Notes:- 
1- Tobirama CAN use his edo, but since we don't know any great shinobi he can summon 
he can only summon up to 5 fodders. Also, since his edo is weaker than Oro'ss in part 1, those
fodder that he can summon have only 15% of their full power. 

2- Tobirama can only use FTG-giri since he showed that only for now. 

of course along side his other feat

3- Itaachi can use any level of his Susanoo EXCEPT the final one. . 

I hope that's fair enough for now. @.@


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

Due to extreme lack of feats shown in the manga, Tobirama gets murdered.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 18, 2013)

This is not fair. Itachi still rapes with current feats.

-Amaterasu one shots.
-Susanoo tanks.
-Genjutsu mindfucks.


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## Bonly Jr. (May 18, 2013)

Itachi godstomps...


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Due to extreme lack of feats shown in the manga, Tobirama gets murdered.



Some people think that Tobirama is stronger with those feats he already has!



KeyofMiracles said:


> This is not fair. Itachi still rapes with current feats.
> 
> -Amaterasu one shots.
> -Susanoo tanks.
> -Genjutsu mindfucks.



I know. Tobirama is weaker than Kinkaku, so I'm not sure what he can do against
those people. But as I said, some people believe in that, so I just want to know
what he can do, or if what they said is only pure BS.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Some people think that Tobirama is stronger with those feats he already has!



Deranged people are deranged.


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## Magician (May 18, 2013)

Tobirama has no feats.


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## KeyofMiracles (May 18, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Some people think that Tobirama is stronger with those feats he already has!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ignore them, they are spouting BS just as you thought they were.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

So, every one agree that Tobirama has no chance for now! 
Great, there is still hope in  humanity . lol

I will make another thread. lol


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## ImSerious (May 18, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> So, every one agree that Tobirama has no chance for now!
> Great, there is still hope in  humanity . lol
> 
> I will make another thread. lol



im pretty sure no one thinks tobirama can beat itachi by feats lol. whoever said tobirama is stronger was probably basing it on portrayal.


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## Mayweather (May 18, 2013)

Itachi Godstomps.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

BD said:


> Tobirama has no feats.


Other than producing larger, higher quality suitons with a single seal without a source than Itachi, having Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, and defeating a Mangekyo Sharingan user who was equal to Madara, yeah he has no feats.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

Tobirama invented ET, wasn't shown using it, ergo, you can't use it as evidence.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Tobirama invented ET, wasn't shown using it, ergo, you can't use it as evidence.


He did invent it, and given how everyone from Tobirama's era reacted, he has used it. Yes, I can use it as evidence based on that.

And again, he has Hiraishin and has fought Sharingan users _all_ his life. He defeated Madara's _equal_ before he could react. So what does that tell you? He was even able to make EMS Sasuke and Mokuton Orochimaru piss themselves in fear when he got angry.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

Word of god =/= valid evidence

When I see him using it, I will accept it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Word of god =/= valid evidence
> 
> When I see him using it, I will accept it.


Dude, it is valid evidence. Mu even reacted 'did the Second Hokage bring me back'? Same with a bunch of other Edo Tensei'd shinobi, including Kinkaku and Ginkaku.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

I don't know...the other forums I am on do not accept that as valid evidence.
Just like hyperbole, too. 

o.o


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

Tobi doesn't have enough feats yet to suggest he'll beat Itachi. Maybe in the next few chapters.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> I don't know...the other forums I am on do not accept that as valid evidence.
> Just like hyperbole, too.
> 
> o.o


We have people blatantly saying that Tobirama used Edo Tensei himself. Even reincarnated shinobi wonder if he resurrected them. That is valid evidence.



Bonly said:


> Tobi doesn't have enough feats yet to suggest he'll beat Itachi. Maybe in the next few chapters.


Defeating Izuna, fighting Uchiha literally all his life, having Hiraishin and its Hiraishingiri which can blitz Sharingan users doesn't suggest he has at least a chance?


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

Hahaha! I say that Sage used Shinra Tensei because he had Rinnegan. Prove it.

It is not valid evidence.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Hahaha! I say that Sage used Shinra Tensei because he had Rinnegan. Prove it.
> 
> It is not valid evidence.


The Rikudo Sennin can use all the Rinnegan techs, that's basic, common knowledge. 

LordSnow, you really should lurk more on this site to see what is acceptable for evidence and what isn't. Especially read the rules.


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## Dominus (May 18, 2013)

Hiraishingiri GG.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Tobirama still lacks feats.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

He has less feats than Konohamaru


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> He has less feats than Konohamaru


Not really. Killing Izuna Uchiha with a single slash is a great feat considering Izuna was Madara's equal. And he has Hiraishin-which levels the playing field.

Portrayal and hype put Tobirama on a higher level than Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2013)

> 2- Tobirama can only use FTG-giri since he showed that only for now.



He showed us the seal-less (limited) version of Hiraishin when he teleported Hashirama above the Hokage statues.


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## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Defeating Izuna, fighting Uchiha literally all his life, having Hiraishin and its Hiraishingiri which can blitz Sharingan users doesn't suggest he has at least a chance?



Who said he doesn't have a chance? All we saw was that on a battle field with god knows how many people fighting for god knows how long for god know know was and wasn't focusing on who, Tobi just managed to get a hit in. I might as well claim Itachi can beat Nagato because:
>He defeated Nagato
>Fought with his sickness and using pills to stay alive for god knows how long
>Having sharingan and its Amaterasu which can blitz Rinnegan users.

But as we all(or most should) know that Nagato would beat Itachi and is on a higher level. Tobi doesn't have the feats to suggest he can Itachi as of now, doesn't mean he has no chance at winning but he'll lose.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

Rape thread is rape. 

Even from portrayal, you could cast doubt on Tobirama's power. He beat a Sharingan-less Izuna, brings back Edos _weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru's_, and has had his supposed Suiton mastery replicated by everyone and their grandma, and whatever Hiraishin variant he has wasn't on Minato's level if he couldn't escape from Kinkaku and Ginkaku. . .it doesn't put him above Itachi.


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## LordSnow (May 18, 2013)

wow....Tobirama, a featless person, one shot Izuna, the even more featless person....a very legit reason to call someone powerful lol


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He showed us the seal-less (limited) version of Hiraishin when he teleported Hashirama above the Hokage statues.



But we don't know how he uses it in real battle, or even if he actually has seals in his statue! 
we also don't know how fast he is in using it, I wouldn't say he's as fast as Minato since
we know Minato is the fastest! 



LordSnow said:


> wow....Tobirama, a featless person, one shot Izuna, the even more featless person....a very legit reason to call someone powerful lol



hahaha lol


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## joshhookway (May 18, 2013)

Tobirama has edo tensei. Tobirama uses flying thunder slash and kills Itachi.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Rape thread is rape.
> 
> Even from portrayal, you could cast doubt on Tobirama's power. He beat a Sharingan-less Izuna, brings back Edos _weaker than Part 1 Orochimaru's_, and has had his supposed Suiton mastery replicated by everyone and their grandma, and whatever Hiraishin variant he has wasn't on Minato's level if he couldn't escape from Kinkaku and Ginkaku. . .it doesn't put him above Itachi.


Izuna had the Mangekyo Sharingan. He was portrayed as Madara's equal with the Mangekyo Sharingan. And his Suiton's are the best in the universe.

And hew as facing two Pseudo-Jinchuriki who were wielding weapons of the Sage themselves and who could demolish three entire Shinobi armies all on their own. Plus 18 other elite shinobi of around Kakuzu's level.

Dear god, do you want to bash him?



LordSnow said:


> wow....Tobirama, a featless person, one shot Izuna, the even more featless person....a very legit reason to call someone powerful lol



Are you TRYING to be difficult?


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Izuna had the Mangekyo Sharingan. He was portrayed as Madara's equal with the Mangekyo Sharingan. And his Suiton's are the best in the universe.



No he didn't. The databook says Izuna had already given his eyes to Madara before he was killed in battle. On-panel we don't see the Sharingan. Conclusion: Izuna didn't have the Sharingan.

Which is irrelevant when speaking about an Izuna that doesn't have the Sharingan.

His Suitons were considered the best because he could use them without a source and with so few handseals, but I guess times have changed since Kakashi, Mei, and Kisame- in other words every Kage level Suiton user, have replicated that feat.



> And hew as facing two Pseudo-Jinchuriki who were wielding weapons of the Sage themselves and who could demolish three entire Shinobi armies all on their own. Plus 18 other elite shinobi of around Kakuzu's level.



And? If his S/T ninjutsu was comparable to Minato's he would have just teleported everyone home instead of trying to stall.

How do you know the other shinobi were around Kakuzu's level?



> Dear god, do you want to bash him?



. . .No?


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Izuna had the Mangekyo Sharingan. He was portrayed as Madara's equal with the Mangekyo Sharingan. And his Suiton's are the best in the universe.
> 
> And hew as facing two Pseudo-Jinchuriki who were wielding weapons of the Sage themselves and who could demolish three entire Shinobi armies all on their own. Plus 18 other elite shinobi of around Kakuzu's level.



some points.

1- Izuna was NOT Madara's equal is just wrong translation. 
2- No one said his Suiton's are the best, no?
3- Tobirama was not sealed, so those weapons are useless!
4- Kakuzu stated that Kin use his Kurama's chakra only when Gin is taken out!
but Gin said that they wipe the floor with Tobirama, so it's unlikely that they used their
Kurama's chakra!

5- who said they are Kakuzu's level? 
they are fodder as strong as any other fodder!


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> No he didn't. The databook says Izuna had already given his eyes to Madara before he was killed in battle. On-panel we don't see the Sharingan. Conclusion: Izuna didn't have the Sharingan.
> 
> Which is irrelevant when speaking about an Izuna that doesn't have the Sharingan.
> 
> His Suitons were considered the best because he could use them without a source and with so few handseals, but I guess times have changed since Kakashi, Mei, and Kisame- in other words every Kage level Suiton user, have replicated that feat.


Izuna and Madara awoke their Sharingan, and their Mangekyo Sharingan at the same time. Straight from the manga. Izuna has both the Sharingan and the Mangekyo Sharingan, we've known this for years. 

Mei, Kisame, and Kakashi have both needed multiple hand seals to perform what Tobirama can do in one seal. Tobirama was explicitly called the greatest Suiton user in history.


> And? If his S/T ninjutsu was comparable to Minato's he would have just teleported everyone home instead of trying to stall.


Minato considered Tobirama quite skilled, comparing his own Jikukan Kekkai on his own. And its an off-screen battle too.


> How do you know the other shinobi were around Kakuzu's level?


Kakuzu was alluded to be part of their group, he's the benchmark that people use when talking about the Kinkaku Force.



TorJaN said:


> some points.
> 
> 1- Izuna was NOT Madara's equal is just wrong translation.


Prove it. Show a different translation.


> 2- No one said his Suiton's are the best, no?


Yeah, the manga called the best Suiton user.


> 3- Tobirama was not sealed, so those weapons are useless!


Tobirama could have escaped dude. Or they just used the Banshosen.


> 4- Kakuzu stated that Kin use his Kurama's chakra only when Gin is taken out! but Gin said that they wipe the floor with Tobirama, so it's unlikely that they used their Kurama's chakra!


Ginkaku is an idiot. And no, Kakuzu never said that, both Ginkaku and Kinkaku could use Kurama's chakra whenever they wanted, hell they were both pictured in a Version 2 shroud when referring to Kurama's chakra. 


> 5- who said they are Kakuzu's level?
> they are fodder as strong as any other fodder!


The Kinkaku Force were an elite squad, and Kakuzu was alluded to be a member. 

You hate the Second Hokage from the way you post.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Izuna and Madara awoke their Sharingan, and their Mangekyo Sharingan at the same time. Straight from the manga. Izuna has both the Sharingan and the Mangekyo Sharingan, we've known this for years.



Databook 3 - Uchiha Izuna:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Top section

Main text

His older brother, leader of the Uchiha losing his eyesight: a literal synonym of "ruin" for the clan. Izuna chose himself to present his own eyes, without hesitation, without a word. An act tantamount to suicide for an Uchiha, as they owe their fame to their doujutsu...

Caption

-The shinobi at the Uchiha founder's side. He sacrifices his light for the sake of his clan.

Picture comment

-His eyes passed over to Madara, it doesn't take long before Izuna loses his life in battle...
Madara: My (little) brother acknowledged it all. Offering his eyes was his own initiative.

Bottom section
Title (right side): Konoha Information Panels Collection (tn: Arbitrary translation. Alternatives are welcome)... Number Twenty-Eight

Main text

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a rarity even thoughout the Uchiha's history. The power it hides is frightening, thus so are the side-effects. As the caster keeps on using it, it takes away their eyesight. For those who master this powerful doujutsu, the apprehension of suddenly going blind is unfathomable. There is only one way to avoid the blindness, which is to steal a new Mangekyou sharingan from a member of the clan... The vile method employed by Madara. The Mangekyou Sharingan; an accursed doujutsu that cannot go without victims.

Caption

The Mangekyou Sharingan, a blood-stained destiny

Picture comments

-Both awakened to Mangekyou Sharingan, the siblings were prodigiously talented.

-Using his (little) brother's eyes, Madara obtained an eternal Mangekyou Sharingan. 






> Mei, Kisame, and Kakashi have both needed multiple hand seals to perform what Tobirama can do in one seal. Tobirama was explicitly called the greatest Suiton user in history.



Mei wasn't using multiple handseals in the Madara fight, Kakashi wasn't in the Kakuzu fight, and Kisame wasn't using multiple seals in his fight with Gai- where he displayed Suitons far beyond what any Suiryudan no Jutsu would do.



> Minato considered Tobirama quite skilled, comparing his own Jikukan Kekkai on his own. And its an off-screen battle too.



Yeah. . . .no, Minato comparing his own jutsu with Tobirama's doesn't mean he considered Tobirama's on par with his. By that logic Tsunade's speed is comparable to Ay's. 

What does being an off-screen battle have to do with anything? Kinkaku/Ginkaku cannot prevent Hiraishin, Tobirama would have warped home if he could. He didn't, and he died. So either his Hiraishin isn't ideal for direct combat for some reason, or he's limited to what he showed against Izuna- which would have just been tanked, and explained his loss.



> Kakuzu was alluded to be part of their group, he's the benchmark that people use when talking about the Kinkaku Force.



I'm not trolling, I truly do not remember this. Could you tell me where this happened?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Databook 3 - Uchiha Izuna:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


...did you even read the text? Madara and Izuna both awakened their Mangekyo Sharingan. The manga shows both Madara and Izuna with their Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan. Dude, you're really not having a leg to stand on now.




> Mei wasn't using multiple handseals in the Madara fight, Kakashi wasn't in the Kakuzu fight, and Kisame wasn't using multiple seals in his fight with Gai- where he displayed Suitons far beyond what any Suiryudan no Jutsu would do.


Mei was using multiple hand seals, at least two, for her Suitons. Kakashi was shown during a blur for his seals against Kakuzu. Kisame always needed a lot of seals when he wasn't near a source.




> Yeah. . . .no, Minato comparing his own jutsu with Tobirama's doesn't mean he considered Tobirama's on par with his. By that logic Tsunade's speed is comparable to Ay's.


Minato made a direct comparison between his own Jikukan and Tobirama's when he said Obito's was better than both of their's.


> What does being an off-screen battle have to do with anything? Kinkaku/Ginkaku cannot prevent Hiraishin, Tobirama would have warped home if he could. He didn't, and he died. So either his Hiraishin isn't ideal for direct combat for some reason, or he's limited to what he showed against Izuna- which would have just been tanked, and explained his loss.


We don't know WHAT happened in that battle. You are making bunch of suppositions so you can put Tobirama on a lower level of power.




> I'm not trolling, I truly do not remember this. Could you tell me where this happened?


Kakuzu's own words when he noticed Kinkaku transforming is when Ginkaku was sealed indicated Kakuzu had worked with them before. Many people on the board concluded most of the Kinkaku force were at least Kakuzu's level.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 18, 2013)

LordSnow said:


> Hahaha! I say that Sage used Shinra Tensei because he had Rinnegan. Prove it.
> 
> It is not valid evidence.



Except we know Shinra Tensei is a standard Rinnegan jutsu. Furthermore it was said that the Sage sent his CT out of the planet - Shinra Tensei is the only other Rinnegan jutsu that does that.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...did you even read the text? Madara and Izuna both awakened their Mangekyo Sharingan. The manga shows both Madara and Izuna with their Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan. Dude, you're really not having a leg to stand on now.



I did, but I'm guessing you didn't, because it specifically says "*His eyes passed over to Madara, it isn't long before Izuna loses his life in battle. . .*". Do you know what that means? It means the Izuna that Tobirama defeated did *not* have the Sharingan.



> Mei was using multiple hand seals, at least two, for her Suitons. Kakashi was shown during a blur for his seals against Kakuzu. Kisame always needed a lot of seals when he wasn't near a source.



Where did you see this at? Seems to me like they used single seals. Though I may need to look up this "blur" you speak about for Kakashi, I may have missed that.



> Minato made a direct comparison between his own Jikukan and Tobirama's when he said Obito's was better than both of their's.



I know that, it doesn't mean Tobirama's is on par with Minato's anymore than Madara's words suggest Tsunade's speed is comparable to Ay's.

Honestly this would only be logical, as innovative as Minato is, you would think that he'd have improved on Tobirama's jutsu like Orochimaru did.



> We don't know WHAT happened in that battle. You are making bunch of suppositions so you can put Tobirama on a lower level of power.



Like you're making assumptions that Tobirama's S/T jutsu is on Minato's level, right? Except Minato would have just warped everyone home and not had to face anybody. Meanwhile Tobirama stayed behind because he couldn't do that.

Either that or he's retarded, which I seriously doubt with him being Hokage and all.

So can you give me anything about the Kin/Gin squad that would prevent Hiraishin? Cuz Kin, Gin, and Kakuzu (if he was there) have not shown such a thing.



> Kakuzu's own words when he noticed Kinkaku transforming is when Ginkaku was sealed indicated Kakuzu had worked with them before. Many people on the board concluded most of the Kinkaku force were at least Kakuzu's level.



I personally don't think that indicates that Kakuzu worked with them, and even if he did, that doesn't mean the others in the squad were as strong as he was.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I did, but I'm guessing you didn't, because it specifically says "*His eyes passed over to Madara, it isn't long before Izuna loses his life in battle. . .*". Do you know what that means? It means the Izuna that Tobirama defeated did *not* have the Sharingan.


Except Izuna clearly had his eyes when he faced Tobirama in chapter 624. He only gave Madara his eyes AFTER Tobirama mortally wounded him.




> Where did you see this at? Seems to me like they used single seals. Though I may need to look up this "blur" you speak about for Kakashi, I may have missed that.


I looked over their battles again, they at least used two seals for their Suitons while Tobirama only needed one.




> I know that, it doesn't mean Tobirama's is on par with Minato's anymore than Madara's words suggest Tsunade's speed is comparable to Ay's.
> 
> Honestly this would only be logical, as innovative as Minato is, you would think that he'd have improved on Tobirama's jutsu like Orochimaru did.


Minato meant Tobirama's Jikukan was obviously very good, FlamingRain, hence the direct comparison. Your Madara example is a misnomer.




> Like you're making assumptions that Tobirama's S/T jutsu is on Minato's level, right? Except Minato would have just warped everyone home and not had to face anybody. Meanwhile Tobirama stayed behind because he couldn't do that.
> 
> Either that or he's retarded, which I seriously doubt with him being Hokage and all.
> 
> So can you give me anything about the Kin/Gin squad that would prevent Hiraishin? Cuz Kin, Gin, and Kakuzu (if he was there) have not shown such a thing.


Tobirama's S/T was directly compared to Minato's by Minato himself. Tobirama has shown a range with his Hiraishin that can cross an entire village worth of area. 

And we really don't know the circumstances. You are again, just trying to make Tobirama weaker by saying 'HURR HURR, KINKAKU AND GINKAKU KILLED HIM! HURR HURR!' without knowing why, how, or what happened. 


> I personally don't think that indicates that Kakuzu worked with them, and even if he did, that doesn't mean the others in the squad were as strong as he was.


Then why would Kakuzu know so much about Kinkaku and Ginkaku?


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## The Prodigy (May 18, 2013)

MS Madara feats aren't even on Itachi's level, except for maybe the size of his big ass katons, but that's about it really. Tobirama I think is clearly able to battle with MS users, but to say his feats are anything comparable to Itachi's is simply hilarious.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Prove it. Show a different translation.
> 
> Yeah, the manga called the best Suiton user.
> 
> ...



1- 
2- Scan? I searched about this statement and I have never found it!
3- The only thing that's worth is the Fan, the others are harmless if Tobirama has not been sealed!

4- and their Mangekyo Sharingan at the same time.
"someone must have taken Ginkaku out." 
do you have an explanation? And I didn't say he can't use it whenever he want, but according to
Kakuzu he used it when Gin taken out!

- Scan please? Just because Kakuzu saw him that doesn't mean he was one of them!
or also perhaps A is one of them as well because he know about that? 

- I only hate the Uchiha and Karui.


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## FlamingRain (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except Izuna clearly had his eyes when he faced Tobirama in chapter 624. He only gave Madara his eyes AFTER Tobirama mortally wounded him.



We see that Izuna has eyes, not Sharingan eyes. There is no inconsistency betwen what the databook says and what we see on-panel. Tobirama beat a Sharingan-less Izuna. It's that simple.



> I looked over their battles again, they at least used two seals for their Suitons while Tobirama only needed one.



Mei wasn't. She put up a single seal each time her cheeks swelled with the water that would come from her Suiton. I don't have time to look up the other two fights right now, but I will later.



> Minato meant Tobirama's Jikukan was obviously very good, FlamingRain, hence the direct comparison. Your Madara example is a misnomer.



Yes it was very good, that doesn't mean it was as good as Minato's.



> Tobirama's S/T was directly compared to Minato's by Minato himself. Tobirama has shown a range with his Hiraishin that can cross an entire village worth of area.



If Tobirama's S/T is limited to what we saw against base Izuna then . . .it isn't noteworthy.



> And we really don't know the circumstances. You are again, just trying to make Tobirama weaker by saying 'HURR HURR, KINKAKU AND GINKAKU KILLED HIM! HURR HURR!' without knowing why, how, or what happened.



I'm not trying to make him look weaker. Kinkaku and Ginkaku _did_ kill him.

We can make a logical assumption that if Tobirama could have escaped after his team, he would have, but obviously he didn't.

Heck, I really _can't_ make him look weaker because we didn't see the fight. He could have not put up a fight at all, it could have just been an outright stomp with 0 difficulty for the Kinkaku and Ginkaku force.

This can't even be used as a feat for Tobirama. If person A gets stomped by group B, and person C would also be stomped by group B, it does not make person A > person C.

Hypewise, they weren't following just him, they were following his squad, which consisted of at least two more Kage levels (Danzo and Hiruzen), along with the others. So we also can't even claim that "they thought they needed 20 people to beat Tobirama".



> Then why would Kakuzu know so much about Kinkaku and Ginkaku?



Maybe because they were famous? I dunno. Even Tsunade had some knowledge on them and she is several decades younger than Kakuzu. Kakuzu also knew about Kakashi despite never having actually met him beforehand.

It's possible he just saw them in battle while on another army's side as well.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2013)

> Heck, I really can't make him look weaker because we didn't see the fight. He could have not put up a fight at all, it could have just been an outright stomp with 0 difficulty for the Kinkaku and Ginkaku force.
> 
> This can't even be used as a feat for Tobirama. If person A gets stomped by group B, and person C would also be stomped by group B, it does not make person A > person C.
> 
> Hypewise, they weren't following just him, they were following his squad, which consisted of at least two more Kage levels (Danzo and Hiruzen), along with the others. So we also can't even claim that "they thought they needed 20 people to beat Tobirama".



I agree with this. But Tobirama honestly has a chance here.
he's a sensor so avoiding Itachi's jutsus shouldn't be a bid deal. and he also has the
water barrier against most if not all of Itachi's jutsus. However, I think the Sausanoo is the jutsu
that will end this. and perhaps even the other MS jutsus, if Tobirama shows a great feat in speed 
that will change a lot of things. @.@


----------



## Remsengan (May 18, 2013)

By portrayal we could speculate Tobirama would have a decent showing, I doubt Itachi would "Godstomp".  But without feats we can't accurately show how he would fight or even what his plan of attack would be.  

So Itachi wins by default.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 18, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> We see that Izuna has eyes, not Sharingan eyes. There is no inconsistency betwen what the databook says and what we see on-panel. Tobirama beat a Sharingan-less Izuna. It's that simple.


Or Tobirama's slash made Izuna's Sharingan deactivate. Why wouldn't Izuna, in a battle situation, have his Sharingan active? Especially against the rival he's had since childhood?




> Mei wasn't. She put up a single seal each time her cheeks swelled with the water that would come from her Suiton. I don't have time to look up the other two fights right now, but I will later.


Hm, it always looked to me she had to make two or three seals before her cheeks swelled up.




> Yes it was very good, that doesn't mean it was as good as Minato's.


We do need more information, but it should be enough to give Itachi a fight.




> If Tobirama's S/T is limited to what we saw against base Izuna then . . .it isn't noteworthy.


There is absolutely no evidence Izuna was in base until AFTER the fatal slash. Why would he face the rival against childhood without his best?




> I'm not trying to make him look weaker. Kinkaku and Ginkaku _did_ kill him.
> 
> We can make a logical assumption that if Tobirama could have escaped after his team, he would have, but obviously he didn't.
> 
> ...


...the Kinkaku Force was sent after Tobirama himself. Why would Danzo and Hiruzen also be among the hit list, Tobirama was their only target. Its part of the reason why he stayed behind. 

And from all the hype Tobirama's been getting, you REALLY think its a stomp?


> Maybe because they were famous? I dunno. Even Tsunade had some knowledge on them and she is several decades younger than Kakuzu. Kakuzu also knew about Kakashi despite never having actually met him beforehand.
> 
> It's possible he just saw them in battle while on another army's side as well.


Tsunade had no idea about their Kyubi Chakra. Kakuzu knew about it despite it being a Kumo secret, and he spoke in a way that he personally witnessed it being used.


----------



## Bonly (May 18, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Tobirama's slash made Izuna's Sharingan deactivate. *Why wouldn't Izuna, in a battle situation, have his Sharingan active?* Especially against the rival he's had since childhood?
> 
> There is absolutely no evidence Izuna was in base until AFTER the fatal slash. Why would he face the rival against childhood without his best?



Madara was fighting with Hashi and didn't have his Sharingan active and yet Madara was in a battle situation(just like Izuna was) and Hashi was Madara's rival since childhood(just like Tobi was Izuna's rival). We don't know how long they was fighting for nor how much chakra they used so Izuna could've run too low on chakra to use the sharingan, your reasoning doesn't prove he did have it up and vice versa.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Or Tobirama's slash made Izuna's Sharingan deactivate. Why wouldn't Izuna, in a battle situation, have his Sharingan active? Especially against the rival he's had since childhood?



Well I dunno, maybe because it's hard to have something active when you don't have it anymore.



> We do need more information, but it should be enough to give Itachi a fight.



Of course he could logically give Itachi a fight, but that isn't the same as defeating him with it.



> There is absolutely no evidence Izuna was in base until AFTER the fatal slash. Why would he face the rival against childhood without his best?



Because Kishi already told us that he wasn't at his best when he was killed.



> ...the Kinkaku Force was sent after Tobirama himself. Why would Danzo and Hiruzen also be among the hit list, Tobirama was their only target. Its part of the reason why he stayed behind.
> 
> And from all the hype Tobirama's been getting, you REALLY think its a stomp?



I don't remember that being stated. They'd be on the hit list because they were part of Konoha's forces, in other words, their enemies.

Given that the squad in question was likely prepared to take down 3+ Kage levels. . .yes, yes I do.



> Tsunade had no idea about their Kyubi Chakra. Kakuzu knew about it despite it being a Kumo secret, and he spoke in a way that he personally witnessed it being used.



That's why I said "some" knowledge. Kakuzu has been around longer, and unlike Tsunade, he may have personally witnessed it, I already conceeded that much. But he doesn't have to have been on the Kin/Gin squad to have witnessed it.


----------



## Okodi (May 19, 2013)

The known things about Tobirama is that he was the best suiton user ever. That, along with the watershield that he can create would allow him to block any fire attack and possibly deal with Amaterasu since it would take some time burningboiling the water away.

Genjutsu is something that Tobirama is going to be knowledgable about considering he fought Uchiha's often during his life-time. And with his known ability to use Edo Tensei and Hiraishin Giri how he would pair up against Itachi is hard to determine since we haven't really seen how any of those were set up prior to use.

Until I get more battle data I can't fairly pick a winner.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 19, 2013)

Eh, Tobirama has a significant lack of feats. Sure, he downed Izuna, but in the midst of a raging war, it's unlikely that they ever engaged 1v1, thus the merit of that feat is questionable. Though, if he manages to tag Itachi with a seal, the FTG slash will likely earn him the victory.

With no knowledge, I say genjutsu plays a huge factor here. Experienced with Uchiha users as Tobirama may be, it's not enough to claim he can deal with Itachi's Tsukuyomi, perhaps the strongest genjutsu shown in the manga. If Itachi successfully executes it, he's done. Amaterasu could be countered, but with its nigh-instantaneous speed, not seeing what Tobirama has displayed that could deflect it.

Even without Susano'o in its full form, Itachi can utilize the Spiritual Items, which with a strong defense/offense, grants him another advantage. As I said, Tobirama has far too little feats to properly judge this match.

Itachi wins for now.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Well I dunno, maybe because it's hard to have something active when you don't have it anymore.


...he still had it until he gave his eyes to Madara after receiving the mortal wound from Tobirama.

Dude, this page confirms that he only gave his Sharingan to his brother after the wound was inflicted.


> Of course he could logically give Itachi a fight, but that isn't the same as defeating him with it.


There is a high chance, giving the hype Tobirama has received, he can defeat him.




> Because Kishi already told us that he wasn't at his best when he was killed.


No, he didn't. Izuna had his Mangekyo up until Tobirama gave him the mortal wound, thus he gave his eyes to Madara. Chapter 624 confirms that.




> I don't remember that being stated. They'd be on the hit list because they were part of Konoha's forces, in other words, their enemies.
> 
> Given that the squad in question was likely prepared to take down 3+ Kage levels. . .yes, yes I do.


Hiruzen and Danzo were unknowns, the target was Tobirama solely. An elite squad was needed to defeat Tobirama. 




> That's why I said "some" knowledge. Kakuzu has been around longer, and unlike Tsunade, he may have personally witnessed it, I already conceeded that much. But he doesn't have to have been on the Kin/Gin squad to have witnessed it.


Though given his long life, its highly likely he was in the Kinkaku Squad, especially since it was a bounty hunting squad.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...he still had it until he gave his eyes to Madara after receiving the mortal wound from Tobirama.
> 
> Dude, this page confirms that he only gave his Sharingan to his brother after the wound was inflicted.



Not. . .really. . .

The databook, ala Kishi, said Izuna died in battle right after giving his eyes to Madara. Madara wasn't done fighting Hashirama before Izuna was struck down, who's to say that he wasn't about to pull out the EMS before he was interrupted by his brother's untimely death?

Consider how long it took a very sick Itachi's Sharingan to go out when he was fighting Sasuke and I seriously very much doubt Izuna's would have went out in an instant after being slashed by Tobirama. So I still see it as Izuna having given his Sharingan up already.



> There is a high chance, giving the hype Tobirama has received, he can defeat him.



There is _a_ chance, but I'm not so sure it's a high one. By _feats_, he has _no_ chance.



> No, he didn't. Izuna had his Mangekyo up until Tobirama gave him the mortal wound, thus he gave his eyes to Madara. Chapter 624 confirms that.



Same as above reply.



> Hiruzen and Danzo were unknowns, the target was Tobirama solely. An elite squad was needed to defeat Tobirama.



Your reasoning for this? Because again, I don't remember that having been stated.



> Though given his long life, its highly likely he was in the Kinkaku Squad, especially since it was a bounty hunting squad.



But Kakuzu isn't from Kumogakure. . . And even then, Kakuzu being on the squad does not make the rest of the squad as strong as Kakuzu.


----------



## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

I think the Databook was wrong about Izuna. 
and actually it makes absolutely no sense to say he gave his sharingan to Madara
and still has his eyes! It's not like if he has 4 eyes 2 with Sharingan and 2 without them! 
they are the same.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Not. . .really. . .
> 
> The databook, ala Kishi, said Izuna died in battle right after giving his eyes to Madara. Madara wasn't done fighting Hashirama before Izuna was struck down, who's to say that he wasn't about to pull out the EMS before he was interrupted by his brother's untimely death?
> 
> Consider how long it took a very sick Itachi's Sharingan to go out when he was fighting Sasuke and I seriously very much doubt Izuna's would have went out in an instant after being slashed by Tobirama. So I still see it as Izuna having given his Sharingan up already.


Dude. The databook at times is outdated. Madara first had the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan _right after his brother was mortally wounded._ Its blatant. 

Again, you're disproven. Izuna had his eyes until he was mortally wounded, then he gave Madara his eyes to continue protecting the clan. Hashirama spelled it out clearly. 

Madara: My brother died from that wound...*activates Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan for the first time*he left this strength to me, to protect the Uchiha Clan!

You're wrong. There's no other way to put it. Tobirama was able to defeat a Mangekyo Sharingan using Izuna, mortally wound him, and then Izuna gave up his eyes to Madara since he was dying anyway. 

Hell here's more proof, Izuna's eyes aren't bandaged or hollow sockets or shown any signs of scarring: Madara: My brother died from that wound...*activates Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan for the first time*he left this strength to me, to protect the Uchiha Clan!


> There is _a_ chance, but I'm not so sure it's a high one. By _feats_, he has _no_ chance.


Tell me then, how does Itachi do against Hiraishingiri, which is fast enough to completely blitz the MS, equal to Madara, using Izuna?




> Your reasoning for this? Because again, I don't remember that having been stated.


Since it makes logical sense. Hiruzen and Danzo were unknowns at this point, they had yet to make a name for themselves. Tobirama was the only target, the big fish with the biggest bounty, being the strongest shinobi that Konohagakure had to offer at that time.




> But Kakuzu isn't from Kumogakure. . . And even then, Kakuzu being on the squad does not make the rest of the squad as strong as Kakuzu.


Its highly likely that the Kinkaku Squad became rogue after Ginkaku and Kinkaku tried their assassination attempt in Kumo itself on both Tobirama and the Second Raikage.


----------



## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

> Tell me then, how does Itachi do against Hiraishingiri, which is fast enough to completely blitz the MS, equal to Madara, using Izuna?



I put to you the translation for this one!



> Since it makes logical sense. Hiruzen and Danzo were unknowns at this point, they had yet to make a name for themselves. Tobirama was the only target, the big fish with the biggest bounty, being the strongest shinobi that Konohagakure had to offer at that time.



it does not matter if they are known or not, they were kage level at that time. and they said 
to fight their foes is TOO much for them. 

(1)

So Kinkaku Squad >>>> Tobirama AND his 6 students. 
actually Gin and Kin were talking down to Tobirama as if he were no match for them at all
that they feel ashamed! 
(1)

they even defeated him 2 vs 2 
when Tobirama was with the 2nd Raikage.


----------



## ueharakk (May 19, 2013)

feats goes to Itachi.

Hype on the other hand: Tobirama is one of the "four strongest" edo tenseis...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I put to you the translation for this one!


You do know that basically means the same thing right?



> t does not matter if they are known or not, they were kage level at that time. and they said
> to fight their foes is TOO much for them.
> 
> (1)
> ...


There are a lot of unknowns and suppositions with those statements. Lotta unknowns on why they were too much, how the fight went, etc.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Dude. The databook at times is outdated. Madara first had the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan _right after his brother was mortally wounded._ Its blatant.
> 
> Again, you're disproven. Izuna had his eyes until he was mortally wounded, then he gave Madara his eyes to continue protecting the clan. Hashirama spelled it out clearly.
> 
> ...



It hasn't been contradicted yet in regards to Izuna. So . . .

You have not disproven anything. Let's not act like normal eyes could not be given to Izuna in place of his Sharingan so he could see, because they can, and apparently they were.

You have not falsified that Madara could have simply not pulled out the EMS against Hashirama before Izuna died. Understandably, if his brother just died, he would be more inclined to use the last thing his brother had left him the next time around on the battlefield, which is when Hashirama- the narrator at the time, would have first learned of it, because if Madara didn't use it yet in their last fight, Hashirama had no way of knowing about it.

You have not given me a reason for Izuna's Sharingan going out faster than an incredibly sick Itachi's Sharingan did. If Izuna was Madara's supposed equal his endurance would be vastly beyond Itachi's, so there _isn't_ a reason for his to have gone out so much faster unless he didn't have it on him at the time to begin with.

So yes there is another way to put it, deal with it until you legitimately disprove it.



> Tell me then, how does Itachi do against Hiraishingiri, which is fast enough to completely blitz the MS, equal to Madara, using Izuna?



Susano'o. . .which Itachi could still do since he still has the Sharingan active.



> Since it makes logical sense. Hiruzen and Danzo were unknowns at this point, they had yet to make a name for themselves. Tobirama was the only target, the big fish with the biggest bounty, being the strongest shinobi that Konohagakure had to offer at that time.



It doesn't make sense at all actually. Hiruzen had to have made some sort of a name for himself (that name being "The Professor") before becoming Hokage. Konoha can't just appoint some nobody as their freaking Hokage, that'd look very bad in front of everyone else and could very well cause other villages to begin doubting their power, thus making them more likely to attack it.

Lol at Tobirama being the strongest when Hiruzen said in that very chapter that he was the strongest of them and nobody else in the squad objected.



> Its highly likely that the Kinkaku Squad became rogue after Ginkaku and Kinkaku tried their assassination attempt in Kumo itself on both Tobirama and the Second Raikage.



True. . .


----------



## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

ueharakk, does Suigetsu even know about the other zombies? He wasn't there to see Madara, the Edo Kage, Nagato, Itachi, etc.



TorJaN said:


> I think the Databook was wrong about Izuna.
> and actually it makes absolutely no sense to say he gave his sharingan to Madara
> and still has his eyes! It's not like if he has 4 eyes 2 with Sharingan and 2 without them!
> they are the same.



Izuna doesn't have to go without eyeballs period just because he gave up his Sharingan. They're just as capable of transfering normal eyes as they are Sharingan eyes.


----------



## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You do know that basically means the same thing right?
> .



no it's not the same. Naruto for example sometimes train with Konohamro and he teach him
a lot of things! that does not mean Konohamaro = Naruto! 



FlamingRain said:


> Izuna doesn't have to go without eyeballs period just because he gave up his Sharingan. They're just as capable of transfering normal eyes as they are Sharingan eyes.



It makes no sense to me. Sorry. 



> Lol at Tobirama being the strongest when Hiruzen said in that very chapter that he was the strongest of them and nobody else in the squad objected.


No, Danzu said Tobirama is the strongest in the village.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> It hasn't been contradicted yet in regards to Izuna. So . . .
> 
> You have not disproven anything. Let's not act like normal eyes could not be given to Izuna in place of his Sharingan so he could see, because they can, and apparently they were.
> 
> ...


Manga showing Izuna still has his eyes. No bandages, no signs of scarring.

Dude, you're wrong. Both Madara and Izuna had the Mangekyo up until Izuna was mortally wounded. 

What Itachi suffered is different from _a sword ripping out your vital organs or puncturing a point where you can't recover from._ 

You're. Wrong. Just accept it and move on. 


> Susano'o. . .which Itachi could still do since he still has the Sharingan active.


Susano'o isn't instantly activated. And since when can the Sharingan predict Hiraishin's movement anyway, its instantaneous movement. And again, Izuna *STILL HAD HIS FUCKING EYES! STOP DENYING IT!*




> It doesn't make sense at all actually. Hiruzen had to have made some sort of a name for himself (that name being "The Professor") before becoming Hokage. Konoha can't just appoint some nobody as their freaking Hokage, that'd look very bad in front of everyone else and could very well cause other villages to begin doubting their power, thus making them more likely to attack it.


Hiruzen didn't become known as the Professor until AFTER he was Hokage. Not before. Hiruzen was the best candidate that Tobirama had, hence why he gave him the battlefield promotion.


> Lol at Tobirama being the strongest when Hiruzen said in that very chapter that he was the strongest of them and nobody else in the squad objected.


Danzo: You can't! You're the Hokage, there's no one in the village greater than you!

I believe the official translation said that Tobirama was the strongest in Konoha. Sorry, you're wrong again.



TorJaN said:


> no it's not the same. Naruto for example sometimes train with Konohamro and he teach him
> a lot of things! that does not mean Konohamaro = Naruto!


Is that your only translation? Far more, from other people, continue to put Madara=Izuna. What is your other evidence?



FlamingRain said:


> Izuna doesn't have to go without eyeballs period just because he gave up his Sharingan. They're just as capable of transfering normal eyes as they are Sharingan eyes.


...you do know that is reaching to the highest degree right? That doesn't make one lick of sense, that Izuna's eye sockets didn't have scarring, etc?


----------



## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

^
SSM 

I will try to find Viz translation since Takl's was not enough. @.@
but not now, I have to go to sleep -_-


----------



## Thunder (May 19, 2013)

There seems to be some confusion concerning Izuna's eyes. If I'm not mistaken, the timeline goes something like this:


Izuna awakened the Mangekyō Sharingan around the same time as Madara. Both brothers then took control of the Uchiha clan with their new powers.


Izuna sustains a critical injury during a fight with Tobirama. We know Madara was the leader of his clan at point, thus both brothers must of had the Mangekyō Sharingan.


Izuna offers his eyes to Madara sometime after this battle, then dies.
What was said in the Databook is a bit different, but that entry is also outdated. The manga is primary canon, thus it should always be taken over the Databook which is secondary canon. 

We don't know why Izuna was depicted the way was there (no Sharingan eyes), but it's not like this is the first time Kishimoto has done something similar.


----------



## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Manga showing Izuna still has his eyes. No bandages, no signs of scarring.
> 
> Dude, you're wrong. Both Madara and Izuna had the Mangekyo up until Izuna was mortally wounded.
> 
> ...



Funny Madara didn't have those either, if you're claiming they'd have still been there after a transplant. Sasuke also had no scars when he took his bandages off, and he isn't as tough as Madara and Izuna would have been.

The sword didn't rip out crap, it made a cut and said cut didn't kill Izuna on the spot. He also shrugged it off better than Itachi was with his sickness Itachi's Sharingan was up while he was battered, blood was dripping from his mouth profusely, and he took his last breaths. Then it went out.

Saying "dude you're wrong" doesn't cut it when trying to prove someone wrong. If you want to move on then fine, but you've not presented anything to make me retract my claims.



> Susano'o isn't instantly activated. And since when can the Sharingan predict Hiraishin's movement anyway, its instantaneous movement. And again, Izuna *STILL HAD HIS FUCKING EYES! STOP DENYING IT!*





Once again, he doesn't need the Sharingan to have eyes. Regular eyes are anatomically the same as Sharingan eyes. Therefore, if you can transplant one you can transplant the other.

Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't instant either or he'd have killed Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They killed him instead. 

Susano'o can be manifested quickly enough, nothing but the ribcage is required to defend against Tobirama, and it manifests no slower than Kinkaku/Ginkaku can enter their shrouded forms.

If Tobirama could just blitz MS users just like that then why did it take him so many years to finally do it? Why did he happen to do it when _we don't see Izuna's Sharingan_?



> Hiruzen didn't become known as the Professor until AFTER he was Hokage. Not before. Hiruzen was the best candidate that Tobirama had, hence why he gave him the battlefield promotion.
> 
> Danzo: You can't! You're the Hokage, there's no one in the village greater than you!
> 
> I believe the official translation said that Tobirama was the strongest in Konoha. Sorry, you're wrong again.



Give me a reason to believe he didn't become known as such until after becoming Hokage. Logically he'd have less time to try learning all those thousands of jutsu _after_ becoming Hokage because he'd be pre-occupied with Konoha's social and economic issues.

Yet we can tell that Danzo's statement was _based on the fact that Tobirama was Hokage at the time_, because of the "You're the Hokage" part; that isn't an active comparison of strength between two ninja. Hiruzen was then declared Hokage right there. So there was no one greater than him by the same logic, _in addition to_ Hiruzen's own claim that he was the strongest _before_ he was declared Hokage. Let me ask you, do you think Tsunade > Jiraiya because she is the Hokage?



> ...you do know that is reaching to the highest degree right? That doesn't make one lick of sense, that Izuna's eye sockets didn't have scarring, etc?



_You_ accusing _me_, or anyone, of reaching. . . . .  

I'm not reaching. Madara's, Kakashi's, Obito's, Sasuke's, the Jinchuriki's. . ._none_ of their eyes have scarring from a transplant. (Kakashi's scar is from being cut by the Kumo fodder, he didn't get any additional scar from the transplant.) There's no reason for Izuna to be the exception.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Funny Madara didn't have those either, if you're claiming they'd have still been there after a transplant. Sasuke also had no scars when he took his bandages off, and he isn't as tough as Madara and Izuna would have been.
> 
> The sword didn't rip out crap, it made a cut and said cut didn't kill Izuna on the spot. He also shrugged it off better than Itachi was with his sickness Itachi's Sharingan was up while he was battered, blood was dripping from his mouth profusely, and he took his last breaths. Then it went out.
> 
> Saying "dude you're wrong" doesn't cut it when trying to prove someone wrong. If you want to move on then fine, but you've not presented anything to make me retract my claims.


FlamingRain, from the current manga presented, you are wrong. Izuna still had his own eyes when he was facing and was mortally wounded by Tobirama. 'Shrugged it off'? Dude, he was collapsing, spitting up blood, and needed Madara to support him.

And Hiraishingiri first stabbed, then slashed Izuna before he could even react. Two wounds that killed him from what Madara said. Itachi's illness wasn't in the terminal stage yet until Susano'o was used (the life force drain) and he never received a mortal wound from Sasuke unlike Izuna. 

Your main claim is that someone transplanted their eyes to Izuna after Madara got the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Who did it? Why? The databook entry you keep producing alludes that Izuna was _blind_ when he died, as did Tobi's story AND Hashirama's. So we either accept _your version_ which is Tobirama never blitzed any Mangekyo Sharingan user, or we accept _canon's_ version which did.


> Once again, he doesn't need the Sharingan to have eyes. Regular eyes are anatomically the same as Sharingan eyes. Therefore, if you can transplant one you can transplant the other.
> 
> Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't instant either or he'd have killed Kinkaku and Ginkaku. They killed him instead.


Izuna had his own eyes according to canon. Not according to you. The sequence of events is clear, both myself and Thunder have given it to you. You're inserting fanon claiming Izuna had transplanted someone else's eyes into his own head after giving Madara his own eyes during a time when Madara didn't need it (from what we saw, he wasn't going blind and was still fighting Hashirama rather well despite losing). 

And hard to kill a guy that has a Jin Cloak around them huh? We don't know what happened in that fight, so stop bringing it up.


> Susano'o can be manifested quickly enough, nothing but the ribcage is required to defend against Tobirama, and it manifests no slower than Kinkaku/Ginkaku can enter their shrouded forms.
> 
> If Tobirama could just blitz MS users just like that then why did it take him so many years to finally do it? Why did he happen to do it when _we don't see Izuna's Sharingan_?


Izuna gets a mortal wound, deactivates his Sharingan instinctively. When face to face, Tobirama had to have faced his Sharingan and MS and slashed through it.

The manga is on my side, not yours. Just accept it, move on, and stop spouting fanon.


> Give me a reason to believe he didn't become known as such until after becoming Hokage. Logically he'd have less time to try learning all those thousands of jutsu _after_ becoming Hokage because he'd be pre-occupied with Konoha's social and economic issues.
> 
> Yet we can tell that Danzo's statement was _based on the fact that Tobirama was Hokage at the time_, because of the "You're the Hokage" part; that isn't an active comparison of strength between two ninja. Hiruzen was then declared Hokage right there. So there was no one greater than him by the same logic, _in addition to_ Hiruzen's own claim that he was the strongest _before_ he was declared Hokage. Let me ask you, do you think Tsunade > Jiraiya because she is the Hokage?


Hiruzen at that point was a complete and utter unknown. He hadn't made a name for himself, didn't achieve the Professor title until after becoming Hokage, and Danzo wasn't a Kage level ninja either. 

No, we really can't. Danzo's statement meant Tobirama was the strongest in the group then, and all of Konoha. Hiruzen was declared Hokage since he was willing to sacrifice his life for his comrades so they could get away, that is the trait that Tobirama probably wanted to see. 

In other words, you're just bashing Tobirama at this point now and claiming he isn't as powerful as Kishimoto presented.


> _You_ accusing _me_, or anyone, of reaching. . . . .
> 
> I'm not reaching. Madara's, Kakashi's, Obito's, Sasuke's, the Jinchuriki's. . ._none_ of their eyes have scarring from a transplant. (Kakashi's scar is from being cut by the Kumo fodder, he didn't get any additional scar from the transplant.) There's no reason for Izuna to be the exception.


You are reaching. There is absolutely NO reason Izuna to have given Madara his own eyes before he was mortally wounded. Madara could still see then, could still fight, and could still protect the clan. 

You're just inserting fanon since you don't want Tobirama to have a kill of a Mangekyo Sharingan user, when the vast majority of the site does (you should have seen Telegrams when 624 came up) and what current canon says. "Izuna had already given his eyes!" Then the manga shows Madara with the EMS for the first time AFTER Izuna died. There is no other interpretation.


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## αce (May 19, 2013)

I'm not sure if people failed to realize but Izuna and Itachi don't have the same eyes.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

αce said:


> I'm not sure if people failed to realize but Izuna and Itachi don't have the same eyes.


Both are Mangekyo Sharingan users. Izuna was built up to be Madara's equal. So Izuna is on a higher tier than Itachi according to that.


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## αce (May 19, 2013)

Also the Uchiha clan and the Senju clan fought for multiple years and Tobirama and Izuna have obviously fought more than just a couple of times. A single panel of Tobirama killing Izuna was not indication that he killed him in one hit but rather it was only shown to display the moment Izuna was killed. It took Tobirama years of fighting to even get that opportunity. 

Yes, Tobirama is superior to Izuna but I have a hard time believing that Izuna has a Mangekyou as strong as Itachi's happens to be. Itachi's story about Izuna and Madara being equal is complete crap as well. He stated that they were equals throughout their lives and that they always competed but Izuna was astonished that someone was stronger than his older brother, indicating that Madara was always Izuna's superior. You can also draw that conclusion on the way Madara happens to be very protective of him indicating that he felt the need to do so for his weaker sibling. And I don't care about the databook anymore. And it's not like that's the first lie in that story that he told Sasuke. 

 To be honest, Tobirama is probably stronger than Itachi but the idea that he has the feats to come to that conclusion is just a lie. Madara was always stronger than Izuna.


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

@SuperSaiyaMan12

here is Viz translation as I told you.


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## αce (May 19, 2013)

Well yeah, according to that Viz translation all that was said is that they tested one another. Also the panel in question


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## αce (May 19, 2013)

Also that Viz panel implies they awakened their sharingan at the same time. We all know that didn't happen. I'm calling bullshit on Itachi's entire story.


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *FlamingRain, from the current manga presented, you are wrong.* Izuna still had his own eyes when he was facing and was mortally wounded by Tobirama. 'Shrugged it off'? Dude, he was collapsing, spitting up blood, and needed Madara to support him.



Again, you can keep saying this and I'm not going to care, because it means zilch.

Izuna had eyes, and we never saw the Sharingan activated at any point in that fight. Izuna's eyes were already black when Tobirama slashed him.

And it's plain as day that Izuna, who would have far greater stamina and all that jazz, was in better condition than Itachi was _when Itachi still had his Sharingan activated_, so I'm calling BS that Tobirama's slash somehow instantly deactivated his Sharingan.

And Tobirama only gave him _one_ wound.  That's why Madara says "that wound killed my brother" instead of "those wounds".



> Your main claim is that someone transplanted their eyes to Izuna after Madara got the Eternal Mangekyo Sharingan. Who did it? Why? The databook entry you keep producing alludes that Izuna was _blind_ when he died, as did Tobi's story AND Hashirama's. So we either accept _your version_ which is Tobirama never blitzed any Mangekyo Sharingan user, or we accept _canon's_ version which did.



Yes it is. Anybody could have done it, it beats walking into the battlefield with empty eyesockets. The databook entry doesn't say Izuna was blind, neither do Tobi and Hashirama's stories. All that's been said about Izuna is that he lost his life when he no longer had his MS.



> Izuna had his own eyes according to canon. Not according to you. The sequence of events is clear, both myself and Thunder have given it to you. You're inserting fanon claiming Izuna had transplanted someone else's eyes into his own head after giving Madara his own eyes during a time when Madara didn't need it (from what we saw, he wasn't going blind and was still fighting Hashirama rather well despite losing).



_Thunder_ has already stated that the scenario I'm proposing was possible in our VMs, he simply isn't sure how likely it is.

Give me a panel that states Izuna had his Sharingan when he got slashed. Oh yeah, there isn't one.

And Izuna did not have to be the one who performed the transplant. Madara was already going blind before Izuna gave him his eyes, so yes Madara did need it. Izuna and Madara were the very first Mangekyo Sharingan users, do you think they knew the EMS would be a result of the transplant? No, they have no reference to arrive at such a thing- their transplant was solely for the purpose of Madara being able to see and since Izuna wasn't going blind, they used his eyes.



> And hard to kill a guy that has a Jin Cloak around them huh? We don't know what happened in that fight, so stop bringing it up.



What happened was that Tobirama died. That's all we need to know and it's all we'll ever know. We know that Kinkaku and Ginkaku survived because they themselves outright said they beat Tobirama. There is nothing wrong with assuming that they survived because of the durability of their cloaks.



> Izuna gets a mortal wound, deactivates his Sharingan instinctively. When face to face, Tobirama had to have faced his Sharingan and MS and slashed through it.
> 
> The manga is on my side, not yours. Just accept it, move on, and stop spouting fanon.



The manga does not side with Izuna having deactivated the Sharingan there. It was never activated from what we see.

There is no sequence of deactivation anywhere on those pages, I have looked.



> Hiruzen at that point was a complete and utter unknown. He hadn't made a name for himself, didn't achieve the Professor title until after becoming Hokage, and Danzo wasn't a Kage level ninja either.



Again you've zero reasoning behind this. I can, however, provide reasoning against it. Konoha, at the top of the world, is not going to appoint some nobody as their freaking Hokage. That shows potential weakness and endangers the village by encouraging others to attack it.

That is why _every, single, Hokage_ or candidate was _famous before they got the title_



> No, we really can't. Danzo's statement meant Tobirama was the strongest in the group then, and all of Konoha. Hiruzen was declared Hokage since he was willing to sacrifice his life for his comrades so they could get away, that is the trait that Tobirama probably wanted to see.



Yes we can if we have even half of a brain cell. "You're the Hokage" is there for a reason, that reason being to show us _why_ Danzo said what he did.



> In other words, you're just bashing Tobirama at this point now and claiming he isn't as powerful as Kishimoto presented.



No.



> You are reaching. There is absolutely NO reason Izuna to have given Madara his own eyes before he was mortally wounded. Madara could still see then, could still fight, and could still protect the clan.



Reason: Madara was going blind. Healthy Madara that can use MS is more valuable than healthy Izuna that can use MS, so Izuna gave said MS to Madara.

If Madara hadn't been going blind there would have been no reason for Izuna to give Madara his eyes even _after_ he was wounded, because again- they had no way of knowing the EMS would be unlocked if their eyes were transplanted, because there was no EMS that preceeded Madara's.

The images you're talking about are the images I'm saying Madara already had Izuna's eyes in, so of course he could still see, fight, and protect his clan.



> You're just inserting fanon since you don't want Tobirama to have a kill of a Mangekyo Sharingan user, when the vast majority of the site does (you should have seen Telegrams when 624 came up) and what current canon says. "Izuna had already given his eyes!" Then the manga shows Madara with the EMS for the first time AFTER Izuna died. There is no other interpretation.



El-oh-el.

I don't care if Tobirama kills a Mangekyo Sharingan user or not. I'm a _fan of all the Hokages_. I'm calling things the way I see them, not bashing Tobirama.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (May 19, 2013)

And the way your seeing this is wrong. There is no other interpretation. Izuna still had his own eyes when facing Tobirama, got mortally wounded, and then donated his eyes to Madara since he was dying.


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## FlamingRain (May 19, 2013)

Well then agree to disagree, SSM. That just isn't how I see it.

We won't convince each other, as we've probably been over just about anything we could go over on this.

You can hold your perspective and I can hold mine.


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## Kai (May 19, 2013)

To state Izuna is more powerful than Itachi is a far greater uncertainty than this match itself.

The downplaying is _strong_ in this thread.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Other than producing larger, higher quality suitons with a single seal without a source than Itachi, having Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, and defeating a Mangekyo Sharingan user who was equal to Madara, yeah he has no feats.


They weren't equal that was mistranslation they were stated as being competitive with each other there's no mention of them being equal.



> Itachi: Since they were young, the two brothers had always competed over who could become the stronger. // They each awakened their Sharingan... // ...and before long, even among their own clan, they became famed for their strength. //



V1 Juubi scale to 50% Kyuubi and Hachibi.


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## αce (May 19, 2013)

Yeah Madara and Izuna were _never_ equals.


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## Kai (May 19, 2013)

One can as easily make the claim that the power gap between Madara and Izuna is similar if not identical to the power gap between Hashirama and Tobirama.


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## Thunder (May 19, 2013)

As for the match-up: Tobirama is probably stronger than Itachi given his portrayal and relevance right now. I imagine each Hokage will showoff something impressive during the war, and in my opinion, the Senju brothers are the strongest of the four. We'll see.

Though if we only take feats into account here, Itachi definitely has the tools to win. Tobirama needs to show more.


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## eyeknockout (May 19, 2013)

1. since when could an MS izuna stand up to an MS madara?
2. since when was MS madara confirmed to be stronger than MS itachi?
3. since when was tobirama cutting izuna fatally proof of tobirama being > izuna when it was an all out war not a 1 vs 1. because after all some fodder killed the 3rd raikage in a 10000 vs 1 fight, that doesn't make the one fodder with the killing blow automatically > third raikage
4. Tobirama gets brutally destroyed against itachi if we only use feats, imo in portrayal they seem about equal


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## Jagger (May 19, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Defeating Izuna, fighting Uchiha literally all his life, having Hiraishin and its Hiraishingiri which can blitz Sharingan users doesn't suggest he has at least a chance?


Congratulations, he has beaten Uchiha all his life, what does that make you think they're on the same level as Itachi? Itachi =/= All the Uchiha. Madara fought Senju all his life, he never beat Hashirama. We want panel feats.


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## BD Itachi (May 19, 2013)

tobirama is weak... lost to the kin/gin squad - itachi defeats kumogakure

amaterasu - no counter
izanami - no counter
susano'o - no counter
tsukuyomi - no counter 

get the picture? i haven't included the legendary weapons or koto...

only hashirama and madara can beat itachi; tobirama is a sakura-level fodder


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## Trojan (May 19, 2013)

BD Itachi said:


> tobirama is weak... lost to the kin/gin squad -* itachi defeats kumogakure
> *
> amaterasu - no counter
> izanami - no counter
> ...



What? 

Tobirama I think he's Sannin level at most. But Itachi is also a Sannin level. 
for what you have mentioned. 

1- Izanami is useless and it's not good for battle. Also, Itachi can't use Koto. 
and there are a lot of people can destroy Itachi. Tobirama is not one of them for now.
However, with the new feat that he WILL have in his next battle there is a good chance that
he'll be stronger than Itachi.


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## Luftwaffles (May 19, 2013)

BD Itachi said:


> tobirama is weak... lost to the kin/gin squad - itachi defeats kumogakure
> 
> amaterasu - no counter
> izanami - no counter
> ...


Everyone there that day were Kage level, and even then they were no match. To say Tobirama is weak without seeing feats is downplaying him hard. And to put a Hokage that was stated as one of the "4 Strongest Edo" in the same stance as Sakura, deserves you a neg.

Itachi wins based on feats, but I will gladly correct you when the time comes for Tobirama to show his feats.


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## BD Itachi (May 19, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Everyone there that day were Kage level, and even then they were no match. To say Tobirama is weak without seeing feats is downplaying him hard. And to put a Hokage that was stated as one of the "4 Strongest Edo" in the same stance as Sakura, deserves you a neg.
> 
> Itachi wins based on feats, but I will gladly correct you when the time comes for Tobirama to show his feats.



what's a neg?

and no... feat-wise, tobirama is really weak and lost to the kin/gin squad.
darui basically fodderized them, so itachi can replicate that feat tenfold

you have to remember - itachi and nagato were also the "strongest" edos (before madara, that is)


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## Luftwaffles (May 19, 2013)

BD Itachi said:


> what's a neg?
> 
> and no... feat-wise, tobirama is really weak and lost to the kin/gin squad.
> darui basically fodderized them, so itachi can replicate that feat tenfold
> ...


Kin/Gin squad? You mean the same squad that took out the 2nd Raikage? The same squad that 6 of Tobirama's handpicked men all deemed Hokage material couldn't stand a chance against? An elite squad that can take down a freakin' KAGE is by no means "fodder".
Darui fodderized Kin/Gin? What manga are you reading kid?

Kinkaku DESTROYED an entire division, and if Ginkaku had released himself as well, Darui would be dead. Darui got plot protection, he didn't beat either in a brawl....he sealed them in a pot after tricking one and getting help from the other. That is not considered fodderization. Kinkaku was GOING TO KILL Darui if it wasn't for Kitsuchi saving his ass. The ONLY reason Kinkaku lost was due to Team Asuma's help toward Darui and the Sacred Weapons.

Darui by himself would be literally fodder in front of the Gold and Silver Brothers. Especially if they were released.

Difference is, the 4 Hokage were deemed the "strongest" 2-3 chapters ago. Confirmed by the writer himself.


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## Taijukage (May 20, 2013)

tobiramas best feat is killing izuna whos just as featless. we dont know enough. maybe he can use FTG as good as minato and ET as good as oro, which begs the question as to why he lost to gin and kin. 
its already been established kin and gin didnt have a squad and the 20 bounty hunters incident was entirely separate to the tobirama vs the brothers battle


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## Thunder (May 20, 2013)

With all due respect, those claiming that Tobirama is weak because he lost to the Kinkaku Force are not being very reasonable. This was a group of highly trained shinobi (twenty of them to be exact), and it's not like we know how the fight went down.

Rather than assume Tobirama (and six other competent shinobi including Hiruzen) is fodder because he couldn't hope to win against twenty elite fighters, I think we should assume the Kinkaku Force is simply _that_ strong.


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## Trojan (May 20, 2013)

Thunder said:


> With all due respect, those claiming that Tobirama is weak because he lost to the Kinkaku Force are not being very reasonable. This was a group of highly trained shinobi (twenty of them to be exact), and it's not like we know how the fight went down.
> 
> Rather than assume Tobirama (and six other competent shinobi including Hiruzen) is fodder because he couldn't hope to win against twenty elite fighters, I think we should assume the Kinkaku Force is simply _that_ strong.



We saw obito defeat at least 50 of those elite fighters in the flashback. Minato also
defeated tons of them with no time. the 3rd Raikage fought 10,000 alone. the
2nd Mizukage defeated a lot of those fodders in the war even with the help of 2 Kage
and he dont even willing to kill them! 

Kin & Gin defeated Tobirama twice. while Darui alone gave them good fight. 
they even views Tobirama as a shame for them, so it's seems they are in completely different level. 


That's why I consider Tobirama the weakest Hokage by far also.


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## Thunder (May 20, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> We saw obito defeat at least 50 of those elite fighters in the flashback. Minato also
> defeated tons of them with no time. the 3rd Raikage fought 10,000 alone. the
> 2nd Mizukage defeated a lot of those fodders in the war even with the help of 2 Kage
> and he dont even willing to kill them!
> ...



Well, again, we don't know how powerful the Kinkaku Force actually was. What if they were all Kage-level or close to it? Generally, twenty Kage-levels > several fodder. Also, there's no point in trying to compare a _named_ and _well known_ group of fighters to random Mist and Rock shinobi. 

There's the issue of poor match-ups as well.

If you believe Tobirama is the weakest Hokage, I don't have a problem with that view point at all, though I disagree with it. The post you quoted is mainly addressing those who feel that Tobirama is weak _in general_ because he lost to the Kinkaku Force.


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## Mithos (May 20, 2013)

We don't know how strong Tobirama is, or exactly what his arsenal consists of. 

From manga portrayal, he should at least be able to give Itachi a very good fight, if not beat him altogether. However, without knowing what he can do, there's no way to determine the outcome of this fight besides blind guessing.


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