# Superman vs. Vegito & SS 4 Gogeta.



## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

Assuming it is possible to have Vegito and Gogeta are separate personas do they stand a chance against non other than Superman Prime?


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## Gunners (Mar 24, 2006)

no, i dont think they would, if iwas normal superman, and we are to assume gogeta is strong ( not some watered down piece of crap) i mean strong enough to make buu look like shit. Then they would win.

But this is superman prime, i dont think they will win, i beleive superman prime is near cosmic level, or am i overhyping him?


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## Rice Ball (Mar 24, 2006)

Bad Id


You know damm well the Dbztards will come to this thread


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## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> no, i dont think they would, if iwas normal superman, and we are to assume gogeta is strong ( not some watered down piece of crap) i mean strong enough to make buu look like shit. Then they would win.
> 
> But this is superman prime, i dont think they will win, i beleive superman prime is near cosmic level, or am i overhyping him?



I myself am not sure ware Superman Prime is ranked.
I think its somware in between Borderline Cosmic and Cosmic.




			
				Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Bad Id
> 
> 
> You know damm well the Dbztards will come to this thread




I have no idea what you are talking about.

What are these DBZ tards you speak of  ?


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## Gunners (Mar 24, 2006)

Thing is quick question.

Wouldnt it be be nah.

Anyway, adding to oponents of similar stength doesnt matter.

Both of their attacks would not hurt him so it wouldnt matter how many of them there was.

I will do it this way, a 10 ton force hitting superman would not hurt him, another, 2 sets of 10 ton force would also have no affect on him.

Do you see what im getting at, because their punches or attacks would hurt him there is really no ways they can take him out.

The only chance they stand is compressing all their ki in to one big explosition.

And riceball i am a dbztard, i except that they loose this fight.


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## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Thing is quick question.
> 
> Wouldnt it be be nah.
> 
> ...




But the real question is can Kienzan effectively cut down Superman Prime?


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## Gunners (Mar 24, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> But the real question is can Kienzan effectively cut down Superman Prime?



Im assuming that is destucto disk.

No.

I beleive superman prime has this match, i think this guy was created as a cheapness that can never be defeated.

Now im going to write my own manga where my characters are capable of the most disgusting cheapness.

Well no that would ruin the plot, but i am designed a manga, in hopes of making money over the net. Investing money in my self.


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## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Im assuming that is destucto disk.
> 
> No.
> 
> ...




But. But . But Destructo Disk can cut threw anything. It was stated in the anime/manga, and has not shown any limits in its cutting abilities.


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## LegionOfTheUnderworld (Mar 24, 2006)

> It was stated in the anime/manga, and has not shown any limits in its cutting abilities.



Like Cells Neck?


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## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

LegionOfTheUnderworld said:
			
		

> Like Cells Neck?



Yes like Cells neck....oh shit! Huge Wtf moment right thier


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## Id (Mar 24, 2006)

Ubiquitous said:
			
		

> Post that please all sides!!!
> Note: Gogeta is not included, because I couldn't get through more then 7 eps of DBGT.
> ...
> Omg.
> Me defending dbz?.



shika shika boo, You live to question authority and defy logic. Even overwhelming logic.


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## masterheadhunter (Mar 25, 2006)

He might be the man of steal but jus one energy blast would go through him like a fired bullet at a unpelled orange.


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## acritarch (Mar 25, 2006)

Superman Prime... lose? Hahahahahaha. I don't think regular Superman would lose to those two.

Superman is: faster, stronger, has more abilities, smarter, etc.

P.S. DBZ characters cannot go close to light speed.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Mar 25, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Assuming it is possible to have Vegito and Gogeta are separate personas do they stand a chance against non other than Superman Prime?



This is your second thread where you made a somewhat luring thread to cause a big fight

I bet you get your jollies from this right?


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## Id (Mar 25, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> This is your second thread where you made a somewhat luring thread to cause a big fight
> 
> I bet you get your jollies from this right?



Yes.

Yes  I do get my jollies from these kinds of fights.


DBZfanboys are the best.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 25, 2006)

1st.. I should really try sleeping. 
@nd- Didn't see you put superman prime! It wasn't in the tiltle. 
if it was regular supes may above post would seem alot less crazy.


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## Id (Mar 25, 2006)

Ubiquitous said:
			
		

> 1st.. I should really try sleeping.
> @nd- Didn't see you put superman prime! It wasn't in the tiltle.
> if it was regular supes may above post would seem alot less crazy.



Excuses, excuses.

Face it your a DBZ tard/Fanboy.

You know you are.......

Also Gogeta and Vegito would win cus they can blow up the universe with a thought. 

That?s more a conclusive feat than an actual one. Although they claim they can do it but never had, 
I go by estimated guess to deemed them as True Facts.

If Vegita by 18,000 power level could blow up earth.

Then SS 4 Gogeta and Vegito by the end of the series have powered up a quintillion times over.

So yeah they can.
Plus since it to of them they can blow up the universe to times over. Their no way Prime Supes can defend against that logic.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Mar 25, 2006)

<- Looks at the sarcasm above... 
-Seriously I didn't see it was prime supes.  

...
:chimpo


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## ChaotixXero (Mar 25, 2006)

Kuririn trying to cut Cell's neck is filler :-/. 

I don't know much about Superman; would soul punisher(thing that killed Jenemba) affect Superman?


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## Vaizard (Mar 25, 2006)

I had this discussion about 8 years ago concerning SSJ4 Gogeta vs. Superman.  A good point that was brought up is that Gogeta is a magical being.  He summons items out of thin air and like his opponent Evil Shenlong, can pretty much manipulate space/time.  One of Supermans weaknesses is magic.  If Gogeta were to take the fight seriously (he tends to goof around too much), he has the potential of beating Superman.


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## brolycjw (Mar 25, 2006)

Haha what a joke! If this is prime superman you are talking about, there's no way any manga character can fight with him. Prime superman is beyond cosmic level, the strongest being ever created in the comic books, so powerful that no one would even be interested to read about him.


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## Id (Mar 26, 2006)

Hell, Christopher Reeve (Superman Himself) got tore up from the floor up by the fall of a horse (and Parkinson?s desisse)

So why wouldn?t a ?Magical Being? like the fusion counter parts of Goku and Vegita have any trouble beating up prime supes.

Last time I checked Sajin>horse.

SSJ>>Horse
SSJ2>>>Horse
SSJ3>>>>Horse
SSJ4>>>>>Horse
Fusion SSJ>>>>>>Horse.


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## Orotachi (Mar 26, 2006)

Id, What the hell was happening on you?


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## Id (Mar 26, 2006)

Yeah also Since Vegito and Gogeta have Universe destroying attacks that should be more than enough for the likes of Superman who never survived such attacks head on…


Oh wait Superman has survived such attacks, and that was his weakest form.

Shit what the fuck was I thinking!……


Superman Prime ass rapes the other two with his GL ring. Nuff Said.


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## Orotachi (Mar 27, 2006)

ID said:
			
		

> Shit what the fuck was I thinking!??
> 
> 
> Superman Prime ass rapes the other two with his GL ring. Nuff Said.


So you're back?


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## Countach (Mar 27, 2006)

it is hard to say because ssj4 gojeta is the strongest anime fighter.  I have never seen superman prime before, all i know is that he is mad of gold or something.  So i say that it would end in a draw or goku would find a way to go ssj5 but then superman would become superman prime prime and so on. so the fight would never end


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 27, 2006)

Goku could power up to SSJ 50 and Supes Prime would still anally violate him.


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## Id (Mar 27, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> Goku could power up to SSJ 50 and Supes Prime would still anally violate him.




Thats what I said, Kinda of sort of.


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## Countach (Mar 28, 2006)

if there was a ssj 50 a mere movement of his/her eyelash would cause every single atom in the universe to split at the same time. resulting in a all powerfull quantom black hole in wich would inclufe the universe in a quarter of a sec.  this is a accepted fact in the scintific comunity


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## acritarch (Mar 28, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> if there was a ssj 50 a mere movement of his/her eyelash would cause every single atom in the universe to split at the same time. resulting in a all powerfull quantom black hole in wich would inclufe the universe in a quarter of a sec.  this is a accepted fact in the scintific comunity



I think you should learn about the words you use before you use them next time.


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## Countach (Mar 28, 2006)

ya that quantom black hole was bs


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## Id (Mar 28, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> ya that quantom black hole was bs



Pri-Crisis Supes snezzed one time, that section of the Universe is that was effected by the Snezze is still being rebuild.......No BS whats so ever and 

Prime Supes>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Pri-Crisis Supes.


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## Countach (Mar 28, 2006)

i pritty sure a snezze would use up at lest 10,000 times the amout of work a simple fliker of an eyelash. also when you say a sneeze it could of been an violant sneeze witch is about 10 times more powerfull then a regular sneeze.  And last time i checked if an atom splits then a certain amont of energy is relested, thus forming an new type of energy sorce.  If every single atom in the universe were to split at the sametime the energy that whould be relased would br infanant.
thus atom spliting of the universe>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>superman prime
you can say since every atom is split resulting in an energy discharge all stars including the yellow ones would be destroyed, thus striping prime of his prime power. unless his powers are perminate, i do not know that much about such a gay and pointless character such as superman prime and any superman in ceneral.


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## superattackpea (Mar 30, 2006)

dbz has the strongest charecters in anything at all, lets look at goku a third of the way through the series he had to power to destroy planets and by the end of the series he had power 1000s of times greater name one other charecter that can compete with that


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

There are plenty of comic and manga characters that are strong enough to hand Goku his ass damn near instantly and Superman is one of them. 

Please do look things up before making baseless claims like that.


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## Reznor (Mar 31, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> Please do look things up before making baseless claims like that.


Umm.... he backed up his claim by saying that Goku, at a thousandth of his power could destroy a planet.

You just said "there are plenty of people stronger than him"....

His statement wasn't as baseless as your reply to his.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

im sorry superman prime just cant get the job done.  ssj4 gogeta can basicly move faster then light, alot faster then light, hell goku at the start of dbz could move at the speed of light and he had a power level of 500.  ssj4 gogeta has a powerlevel of 850,000,000.  Im sure that would mean that he can easily travel at the speed of light.  odds are he's much faster then superman prime, you cant kill something you can't touch


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## Id (Mar 31, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> im sorry superman prime just cant get the job done.  ssj4 gogeta can basicly move faster then light, alot faster then light, hell goku at the start of dbz could move at the speed of light and he had a power level of 500.  ssj4 gogeta has a powerlevel of 850,000,000.  Im sure that would mean that he can easily travel at the speed of light.  odds are he's much faster then superman prime, you cant kill something you can't touch




Current Superman (The weakest version) Moved 4x the speed of light.
Superman Prime is a hell of a lot stronger.

Braking the speed barrier is nothing new.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

Ronzer said:
			
		

> Umm.... he backed up his claim by saying that Goku, at a thousandth of his power could destroy a planet.
> 
> You just said "there are plenty of people stronger than him"....
> 
> His statement wasn't as baseless as your reply to his.


Sigh... should have made this a bit clearer.

superattackpea: 


> name one other charecter that can compete with that


His assumption that no other character ever created could compete with Goku at full power is what my "baseless claim" statement was aimed at since there are characters(manga and anime) that'd rightly fuck Goku up in a heartbeat, not Goku being able to blow up planets.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Current Superman (The weakest version) Moved 4x the speed of light.
> Superman Prime is a hell of a lot stronger.
> 
> Braking the speed barrier is nothing new.



in dbz terms 500 breaks the light barrier, so if you have a powerlevel of 850,000,000 you can move somewere in the ballpark of 1,700,000x the speed of light.

i can not really say if that is faster then superman prime, because i have never read or seen a comic book featuring superman prime. so ID or someone else, can you shead some sort of light on howmuch faster then the speed of light he can go


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## Gunners (Mar 31, 2006)

With my new opinion.

Vegito and Gogeta.

Vegeto, is able to destroy a planet quite simply, like nothing really, and he can probably move near equal or greater than light speed. It can be debated on whether his punch could shatter a universe.

Gogeta, if we are to imply that he is a lot more powerful than vegito, by comparisons they make in the series, would break light speed in my opinion, he should also contain the power to posibly destoy the universe as one of his attacks almost took out the dragon, it could be equal to that giant spirit bomb at the end.

Anyway, i beleive those to be enough to destroy superman prime.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

Of course, that's depending on whether they could manage to hit Superman Prime in the first place, not that he'd really give them a chance to before trying to wipe them out of existence with the Sword of Truth.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

whats to say the sword of truth is stronger then vegeetos soul edge


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

Considering that I don't think Vegito's stronger than plain ol' Post-Crisis Supes, I don't think Supes Prime would have much of a problem with him at all.


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## Gunners (Mar 31, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> Considering that I don't think Vegito's stronger than plain ol' Post-Crisis Supes, I don't think Supes Prime would have much of a problem with him at all.




Reason please? Give a reason how he would stop vegito who could potentially shatter a galaxy and move above light speed.


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Reason please? Give a reason how he would stop vegito who could potentially shatter a galaxy and move above light speed.



Where was it stated that he could move at light speed? What's shattering a galaxy going to do against Post-crisis Superman who could give him one punch to stop him from screaming like Vegito did to Buu.


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## Gunners (Mar 31, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Where was it stated that he could move at light speed? What's shattering a galaxy going to do against Post-crisis Superman who could give him one punch to stop him from screaming like Vegito did to Buu.




The character leave after images, they are able to dodge kamehameha which reach the moon in about a second, that was dragonball time, now this is near the end of z where their speed would have increased dramatically.

So using those facts to show that they are near equal or above light speed, i would say they would be too fast for superman, if vegito punch can destroy a galaxy, it is going to dent superman, i assuming we take in to account the characters power at the end of z and carry it on like how it should be, gogeta would be a power freak.

One of his attacks would be more than most of the positive energy in the universe as he attack lishenron which almost killed him, then the spirit bomb consisting of all positive energy in the universe did, we will say one of gogeta attacks is 1/4 all the energy in the world, and he was quite ready to power a second one to finish the job, the fusion wore of.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> The character leave after images, they are able to dodge kamehameha which reach the moon in about a second, that was dragonball time, now this is near the end of z where their speed would have increased dramatically.
> 
> So using those facts to show that they are near equal or above light speed, i would say they would be too fast for superman, if vegito punch can destroy a galaxy, it is going to dent superman, i assuming we take in to account the characters power at the end of z and carry it on like how it should be, gogeta would be a power freak.
> 
> One of his attacks would be more than most of the positive energy in the universe as he attack lishenron which almost killed him, then the spirit bomb consisting of all positive energy in the universe did, we will say one of gogeta attacks is 1/4 all the energy in the world, and he was quite ready to power a second one to finish the job, the fusion wore of.



also ssj4 gogeta is much more powerfull then vegeto, so if vegeto in the magna has demention shatering punches so does gogeta, and at the end of dbgt gogeta speed was around 1,700,000 x the speed of light


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

can someone please give me facts about superman prime, other then he's stonger then vegetto, Im open to all facts, I just dont know much about him.  So if people want to say he is stronger, please give reasons


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## BattousaiMS (Mar 31, 2006)

...
Vegito at full power and SSJ4 Gogeta is over kill for even Prime Superman. Superman is good but even he can't survive if he is hit by one of those ultra powerful Ki blast SSJ4 Gogeta can throw.

The only way Superman will win this match is if he fights in outer space in which case both Vegito and SSJ4 Gogeta would die by default as they can't breath in space. But that is cheap and anyone can do that against them, well they maybe able to teleport themselves out in time to heaven (where ever those Kami's live) but even then that is more of a runaway. If it's a fair fight were both sides are in a zone were neither die by some default (i.e. air/kryptonite and so on) then SSJ4 Gogeta alone will turn Superman Prime into Superman Dead. 

The only ones who can seriously defeat or hope to defeat SSJ4 Gogeta and Vegito are Celestial level superheros, Browly powered up to the max, Those Golden Gay Armored Knight (2-3 combined to gather), people who can create dimensional rifts (Franklin Richards, X-man) or change even genetics with cosmic power (Silver Surfer) or Extreme Regeneration people (Hulk at half/max powers)  or Flash (time travel mode), Hal Jordan 'Parallax', in other words Cosmic level people...


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

finally someone got it right


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

> The character leave after images, they are able to dodge kamehameha which reach the moon in about a second, that was dragonball time, now this is near the end of z where their speed would have increased dramatically.


No DBZ character was light-speed at the end of DBZ. You don't have to be light-speed to leave after-images to begin with. As for Roshi blowing up the moon, that was one of those stupid inconsistencies that manga/comic artists just gloss over in favor of advancing the plot. It was all debated endlessly in the Goku/Superman threads.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

the creator of dbz stated goku could go lightspeed at the start of dbz.  I think he knows more about goku then you or I


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

go to this site


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

> The character leave after images, they are able to dodge kamehameha which reach the moon in about a second, that was dragonball time, now this is near the end of z where their speed would have increased dramatically.



Post-Crisis Superman makes after images and move faster then light. Even at the end of the series, non of the DGBZ characters were lightspeed or their energy blasts. Even Raditz was able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, and he's not close to moving at lightspeed. Same thing with ssj2 Goku during his fight with Cell (when Cell used the Special Beam Cannon), he was able to out fly Cells energy blasts; if those blasts were lightspeed, they whould have hit Goku in a sec, since he can't fly at lightspeed. 



> So using those facts to show that they are near equal or above light speed,



They're not lightspeed. Even Spiderman and Daredevil can dodge energy blasts, but that doesn't mean they could move at the speed of light.



> i would say they would be too fast for superman,



Post-Crisis Superman is faster than light, he's far faster than any DBZ character.



> if vegito punch can destroy a galaxy,



Vegito punch can't destroy a galaxy though. Post-Crisis Superman however can punch so hard that he could destroy planets and breaks time/space.



> it is going to dent superman,



Vegito has never done anything like that, and Superman has survived far worser things.




> i assuming we take in to account the characters power at the end of z and carry it on like how it should be, gogeta would be a power freak.



Gogeta whould be the most powerful in DBZ, not stronger than Superman.



> One of his attacks would be more than most of the positive energy in the universe as he attack lishenron which almost killed him, then the spirit bomb consisting of all positive energy in the universe did, we will say one of gogeta attacks is 1/4 all the energy in the world, and he was quite ready to power a second one to finish the job, the fusion wore of.



DBGT isn't cannon.



> ...
> Vegito at full power and SSJ4 Gogeta is over kill for even Prime Superman. Superman is good but even he can't survive if he is hit by one of those ultra powerful Ki blast SSJ4 Gogeta can throw.



GT isn't cannon. But prove to me that Vegito or ssj4 Gogeta is more powerful than Post-Crisis Superman with feats? Post-Crisis Superman has taken a blasts equal to a million nuclear bombs, takes planet/star destroying blasts,Superman survived the destruction of a sun eater at ground zero ( The sun eater is an enormously energetic cloud that literally eats both the energy and mass of whole stars), Superman actually survived a double black hole, and Superman has taken (and thrown) time/space destroying blows from E2-Superman (Pre-Crisis). Those feats are from normal Superman (who can beat Vegito IMO too), Superman Prime is just overkill.


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

> The only way Superman will win this match is if he fights in outer space in which case both Vegito and SSJ4 Gogeta would die by default as they can't breath in space.



Normal Superman whould beat Vegito or ssj4 Gogeta on Earth or in space.



> The only ones who can seriously defeat or hope to defeat SSJ4 Gogeta and Vegito are Celestial level superheros, Browly powered up to the max, Those Golden Gay Armored Knight (2-3 combined to gather), people who can create dimensional rifts (Franklin Richards, X-man) or change even genetics with cosmic power (Silver Surfer) or Extreme Regeneration people (Hulk at half/max powers) or Flash (time travel mode), Hal Jordan 'Parallax', in other words Cosmic level people...



Superman is a cosmic:



But there's characters that are less than cosmics that could beat 
Vegito IMO.



> the creator of dbz stated goku could go lightspeed at the start of dbz. I think he knows more about goku then you or I



Akira never stated anything like, where was it stated in the manga, that they were lightspeed. Prove it?


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

i see your mind can not be changed nomater what i say.  So we must agree to disagree.


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> i see your mind can not be changed nomater what i say.  So we must agree to disagree.



I just want evidence proving that they're so much greater, so far from what I've seen them do, Superman or any other top tier character can take them.l


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

it was stated by the creator in an interview in japan, and in the dbz bible


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> I just want evidence proving that they're so much greater, so far from what I've seen them do, Superman or any other top tier character can take them.l



we have never seen SSJ4 gogeta's real power because he never had anyone powerfull enofe to fight him, the same can be said about ssj vegetto.  So their  is no proff of how strong they can be.  Scince we can only speculate i have no prove or facts other then no one can compare to them in dbz

In my opinon SSJ vegeto could take superman prime because I belive that he is faster then prime.(I hold that dbz people are the fastest)

And finnily i hold that SSJ4 gogeta is the strongest charicter ever made up in comics or manga or anime


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> it was stated by the creator in an interview in japan, and in the dbz bible



Show me scans from the manga?


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## Bullet (Mar 31, 2006)

> countach882003 said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

i am sorry i have no scans of the dbz bible or interview.  Theirs no way to prove that a dbz fighter could beat superman. They never showed their true strentgh
but they are stronger then superman
also they are faster then superman,ssj vegetto powerlevel 600,000,000
powerlevel requierd for lightspeed travel 500
Also omega shinron used an attack that was made up of pure hatred.  As humans we make alot, then factor in an hole galaxy/all of space hatred you have a hell of alot of hatred and ssj4 Gogeta sruked it off like it was nothing.  A blast that powerfull could easily destroy plantes,stars,solor systems,galaxys, and supernovas. 
Also ssj4 Gogeta can make even stronger blasts like the big bang kamehameha.


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## Last of the Uchihas (Mar 31, 2006)

Vegito would win.

Fuck superman.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

*Der Stocks!*

That's the bio done on Superman Prime by one of the members of the forum. Read his abilities in the fourth post and what powers he gives to his offspring as a gift. 

Supes Prime is basically a god.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> go to this site


Wow. I couldn't even get a quarter of a way down the page before most of those replies made my head hurt. It was almost like reading the original Supes/Goku thread all over again with spectacular ignorance proudly on display with both sides.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

go about 3/4 of the way down and read the commontary of the fake fight
it near the end of the page


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Mar 31, 2006)

The commentary was just as mindless as most of the votes/posts.


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## Countach (Mar 31, 2006)

you are such a superman fanboy


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## Ashura (Mar 31, 2006)

Well Superman might give them a good fight but the outcome is obvious. After this fight there will be another Death Of Superman comic.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> i am sorry i have no scans of the dbz bible or interview. Theirs no way to prove that a dbz fighter could beat superman. They never showed their true strentgh



They showed enough for me to think that they aren't stronger than Superman.



> but they are stronger then superman



Prove it?



> also they are faster then superman,ssj vegetto powerlevel 600,000,000
> powerlevel requierd for lightspeed travel 500



Numbers don't prove anything, show me feats? They're not lightspeed unless they use IT.




> Also omega shinron used an attack that was made up of pure hatred. As humans we make alot, then factor in an hole galaxy/all of space hatred you have a hell of alot of hatred and ssj4 Gogeta sruked it off like it was nothing.



This doesn't prove that ssj4 Gogeta is faster, stronger, or more durable than Superman though.



> A blast that powerfull could easily destroy plantes,stars,solor systems,galaxys, and supernovas.



No it can't. 



> Also ssj4 Gogeta can make even stronger blasts like the big bang kamehameha.



And what's this attack going to do? Do think Superman whould just stand still while someone is charging up an attack against him?



> Vegito would win.



Prove it? Because right I think Supes whould off him.



> Fuck superman.



 Are you really 5 years old?



> you are such a superman fanboy



That's kind of harsh don't you think? He could also call you a DBZ fanboy, but that's not going to make him change his mind about Superman beating Vegito if you can't bring evidence.



> Well Superman might give them a good fight but the outcome is obvious. After this fight there will be another Death Of Superman comic.



Or it could be a new best seller called "the death of Vegito" manga!  And bring proof or some evidence that makes Vegito so much greater than Superman? Because right I'm not seeing that, and you or the rest of the DBZ support havn't brung anything on Vegito's side that whould make me pick him over Superman.


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Apr 1, 2006)

I'm not a fanboy, I just recognize bullshit when I see it. That fight was littered with crap that goes against damn near everything those two would do(and what would result if they *did* do some of those things), canon-wise, in a fight.

I could sit here and nitpick it to death, but it'd be a waste of everybody's time, so it's better to call it the usual fanboy bullshit and ignore it.


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## Countach (Apr 1, 2006)

if the creator of the manga states they can go lightspeed they can go lightspeed.  In the manga going lightspeed is nothing special in dbz, everyone can do this.  This points to the fact that people in dbz can go faster then the speed of light.  We can only assume they can faster because they get so much stronger as the manga goes on.  Their is your prove of speed.
Also scince vegito has goku in him he knows instant transmition.  This skill can warp goku acrross the universe in the blink of an eye, so even if superman got him into space he could simply warp to an sutible planet.
As for power, this is a little trickey.  We have never seen all of his power because he simply played with buu and never really fought him.  We know that weaker forms of buu had the power to force holes in dimentions by simply yelling.  When the strongest buu did the same thing the dimentions were almost compleatly deastroyed.  While buu was doing this he created a force field around him that was = to his dimention deastroying energy and vegeto easily punched right through it.  This was not even a challage for vegeto so his power has never been tested.  Thus it is unknown.
The fight I belive would play out like this.



They meat in the barron fields of a abanded planet untoughed by man.  They meet as goku and vegeta, and clark kent.
Kent smerks as he sees the earings put on.  Clark removes his classes, and rippes of his shirt reveling the red s.
Vegeto appears, he looks at superman unimpressed.  Superman takes his opening puching vegeto in the stomic.  Vegeto backs away in pain and awe.  He smerks as he coffs up blood.  Vegeto then vanishs, superman not knowing were he whent, is met with flurry of punches and kicks, this sends superman flying, only to reapper behind vegito to gain the uperhand.  Superman destorys vegeto and has taken an advantage.  Unwilling to kill vegetio he simply leaves him in his pain.  As superman prepares to leave he heres a loud yell and a blinding yellow light.  SSJ Vegeto emerges from the light.  Superman charges him but it is useless, his punchs do not hurt him.  SSJ Vegeto easily defeats superman, superman is unable to keep up with the speed of his oppoent.  Superman knowing he had been beat, he layed the golden fittle at his feet.  Vegeto only said "superman if you ever want a rematch you just comeon back, i tell you what u son of a bitch im the best their ever was"

It will go something like that, mabe without the golden fittle


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## acritarch (Apr 1, 2006)

1 punch from Superman would turn any DBZ character into a bloody mist.


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Post-Crisis Superman makes after images and move faster then light. Even at the end of the series, non of the DGBZ characters were lightspeed or their energy blasts. Even Raditz was able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, and he's not close to moving at lightspeed. Same thing with ssj2 Goku during his fight with Cell (when Cell used the Special Beam Cannon), he was able to out fly Cells energy blasts; if those blasts were lightspeed, they whould have hit Goku in a sec, since he can't fly at lightspeed.



You seem to be deluded, i proved the blast move at light speed as they reached the moon in under a second, if a character is able to out run a blast that means he would be moving the speed of light.



> They're not lightspeed. Even Spiderman and Daredevil can dodge energy blasts, but that doesn't mean they could move at the speed of light.



Yeh, but those blasts didnt move as fast, in dragonball the blast reached the moon in about a second. That is close to light speed or light speed or above, i will work out how far the moon is from the earth.



> DBGT isn't cannon.



But it is used in this fight, i could say superman prime isnt canon because it doesnt fit with the current story line, it is more of a ''what if''.



> Vegito punch can't destroy a galaxy though. Post-Crisis Superman however can punch so hard that he could destroy planets and breaks time/space.



When buus scream was destoying the galaxy, he stoped all of it with one punch, since his punch stopped that we can say it is greater than the force buu was putting to destoy the galaxy. Dbz characters can break time a space, look at the rip gotenks created with a scream, then we can assume gokou base is weaker than ssj4 gogeta, gokou by powering up was able to make a universe calaspe.





*Spoiler*: __ 





> They showed enough for me to think that they aren't stronger than Superman.



Like what?



> Numbers don't prove anything, show me feats? They're not lightspeed unless they use IT.



You want a feat do you, in dragonball, when the characters were at their weakest, they were able to dodge ki blast which reached the moon in a second.

Considering they grew by a multiple of over a million by the end of the series, if they could dodge light speed blasts, they are most likely by the end to move faster than ligh.

Since you kindly pointed out that raditz out ran a kamehameha that reached the moon in a second, they reached that speed at the beggining of dbz.



> No it can't.



If we are talking about the blast that has about 1/4 of the energy in the whole universe it would damage the universe if he made it detonate.



> That's kind of harsh don't you think? He could also call you a DBZ fanboy, but that's not going to make him change his mind about Superman beating Vegito if you can't bring evidence.



People have brought up evidence and feats proving they move at light speed, and their blast can do a lot of damage, you just say, ''nope those feats dont make sense' when you know full well that it happened.



> Because right I'm not seeing that, and you or the rest of the DBZ support havn't brung anything on Vegito's side that whould make me pick him over Superman.



No, you're just being to arogant to accept the evidence, i have posted facts proving that their blast would move at light speed, roshi kamehameha reached the moon in what, 1 second, characters were able to dodge blasts going at that speed, radidz who is the biggest pussy in the series was able to out run it, which you pointed out to me.


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## Yamucha (Apr 1, 2006)

Superman can't escape if Vegetto and Gogeta blast the whole galaxy. I mean Vegeta at power level of 18000 blew up whole planet with one fingerd blast (no sweat). Brolly destroyed a whole galaxy with no problem. Superman is no match for any of the Z Senshi.


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## Perfect Moron (Apr 1, 2006)

Yamucha said:
			
		

> Superman can't escape if Vegetto and Gogeta blast the whole galaxy. I mean Vegeta at power level of 18000 blew up whole planet with one fingerd blast (no sweat). Brolly destroyed a whole galaxy with no problem. Superman is no match for any of the Z Senshi.



You know Goku and Vegeta can't survive in space, so I don't see why Vegito could. Supes can on the other hand, so it would give him the win. And Superman has withstood planet destroying blasts.

When people come into a 'DBZ vs' thread, don't bother reading any of the posts, and then write "dbz winz cuz they destroy planets!!!!!!!!!!!!!111  theyr so powerful" they should get banned.


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Perfect Moron said:
			
		

> You know Goku and Vegeta can't survive in space, so I don't see why Vegito could. Supes can on the other hand, so it would give him the win. And Superman has withstood planet destroying blasts.
> 
> When people come into a 'DBZ vs' thread, don't bother reading any of the posts, and then write "dbz winz cuz they destroy planets!!!!!!!!!!!!!111  theyr so powerful" they should get banned.




BY creating a protective sheild like the one he created inside of buu?



> When people come into a 'DBZ vs' thread, don't bother reading any of the posts, and then write "dbz winz cuz they destroy planets!!!!!!!!!!!!!111  theyr so powerful" they should get banned



No they shouldnt, why, because it is there opinion, they are stating that they beleive goku to win because he can give a planet destoying attack. Someone reason.

I beleive vegito would win because he can do much more than blow up a planet, and gogeta can probably destroy the universe, considering base gokou power up was enough to calaspe as universe, gogeta attacks should do more as he is ssj4 created from the two strongest sajjin vegeeta and goku.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> You seem to be deluded, i proved the blast move at light speed as they reached the moon in under a second, if a character is able to out run a blast that means he would be moving the speed of light.



And I've proven that the blasts don't move at lightspeed. Raditz wasn't able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, ssj2 Goku (who doesn't fly at light speed) was barely out flying Cells Special Beam Cannon, and Nappa's energy blast wasn't even close to light speed when he threw it at Gohan before Piccolo out ran it. They can't move faster than the speed of light, if they did, Goku whouldn't need IT.



> Yeh, but those blasts didnt move as fast, in dragonball the blast reached the moon in about a second. That is close to light speed or light speed or above, i will work out how far the moon is from the earth.



Those blasts are energy blasts just like what Goku them thorw, Spiderman and Daredevil has dodge them. 



> But it is used in this fight, i could say superman prime isnt canon because it doesnt fit with the current story line, it is more of a ''what if''.



GT actually weaken the DBZ characters, that's why people don't like to use them, but do what ever you like. I'm not using Prime, there's no need, normal Superman is enough to beat any DBZ/GT character.



> When buus scream was destoying the galaxy, he stoped all of it with one punch,



He stoped Buu from screaming by punching him, not the galaxy.



> since his punch stopped that we can say it is greater than the force buu was putting to destoy the galaxy.



Vegito did nothing but punch Buu in his face. Did you even read the manga?



> Dbz characters can break time a space, look at the rip gotenks created with a scream,



And what's this going to do to Superman? Who's going to be throwing planet destroying blows at Vegito, and Vegito can survive (which I don't think he can) those hits, Supes is going to start throwing time/space breaking punches, not screaming.



> then we can assume gokou base is weaker than ssj4 gogeta, gokou by powering up was able to make a universe calaspe.



Goku never made the universe colaspe.



> Like what?



That's job! I'm here to back up Superman, I have feats to prove why whould beat any DBZ/GT character too. 



> You want a feat do you, in dragonball, when the characters were at their weakest, they were able to dodge ki blast which reached the moon in a second.
> 
> Considering they grew by a multiple of over a million by the end of the series, if they could dodge light speed blasts, they are most likely by the end to move faster than ligh.
> 
> Since you kindly pointed out that raditz out ran a kamehameha that reached the moon in a second, they reached that speed at the beggining of dbz.



And I've proven that the blasts don't move at lightspeed. Raditz wasn't able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, ssj2 Goku (who doesn't fly at light speed) was barely out flying Cells Special Beam Cannon, and Nappa's energy blast wasn't even close to light speed when he threw it at Gohan before Piccolo out ran it. They can't move faster than the speed of light, if they did, Goku whouldn't need IT.



> If we are talking about the blast that has about 1/4 of the energy in the whole universe it would damage the universe if he made it detonate.



Prove it? Show evidence from the manga that stats that?




> People have brought up evidence and feats proving they move at light speed, and their blast can do a lot of damage, you just say, ''nope those feats dont make sense' when you know full well that it happened.



You havn't brung anything, I've actually brung evidence proving that they aren't lightspeed though. 



> No, you're just being to arogant to accept the evidence, i have posted facts proving that their blast would move at light speed, roshi kamehameha reached the moon in what, 1 second, characters were able to dodge blasts going at that speed, radidz who is the biggest pussy in the series was able to out run it, which you pointed out to me.




And I've proven that the blasts don't move at lightspeed. Raditz wasn't able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, ssj2 Goku (who doesn't fly at light speed) was barely out flying Cells Special Beam Cannon, and Nappa's energy blast wasn't even close to light speed when he threw it at Gohan before Piccolo out ran it. They can't move faster than the speed of light, if they did, Goku whouldn't need IT. Also, if Raditz was running at lightspeed, he whould have went around the Planet Earth alot of times, since light can travel around the Earth 7 times in a sec. Raditz wasn't even close to that and nether was Goku's Kamehameha wave.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> BY creating a protective sheild like the one he created inside of buu?



When have you ever seen a DBZ character keep a shield up so long that they could survive in space? Even if they do have a shield on (which I doubt), they still whouldn't be able to attack while it's up.



> No they shouldnt, why, because it is there opinion, they are stating that they beleive goku to win because he can give a planet destoying attack. Someone reason.



Planet destroying attacks is nothing to Superman, and no DBZ character has never destroyed a planet with one little energy blast. I haven't seen any attacks that hit the surface of the planet and destroyed it instantly. Superman has taken many beams, including Omega beams, Green lantern beams (can destroy a planet by accident) magic beams, and kryptonite radiation that should turn him to ash. Non of those attacks stoped him. 



> I beleive vegito would win because he can do much more than blow up a planet, and gogeta can probably destroy the universe, considering base gokou power up was enough to calaspe as universe, gogeta attacks should do more as he is ssj4 created from the two strongest sajjin vegeeta and goku.



Prove it? Show a scan of Vegito throwing a blasts that could destroy the universe? SSJ4 Gogeta hasn't shown anything either, the only thing he did was beat up Omega Shinron, he didn't show anything that whould make me think that he could destroy a universe.


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## Spacey (Apr 1, 2006)

DBZ would WTFPWN the universe of everything.

Nah but seriously Id don't make fucked up battles....


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Prove it? Show a scan of Vegito throwing a blasts that could destroy the universe? SSJ4 Gogeta hasn't shown anything either, the only thing he did was beat up Omega Shinron, he didn't show anything that whould make me think that he could destroy a universe.



Oh, coz vegito common script is based like '' yeh eat my universe destroying blast'' get real.

Buu was about the destroy the universe and he stopped it with a punch, on punch.

What to say he can't use those punches in succession against superman.



> And I've proven that the blasts don't move at lightspeed. Raditz wasn't able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, ssj2 Goku (who doesn't fly at light speed) was barely out flying Cells Special Beam Cannon, and Nappa's energy blast wasn't even close to light speed when he threw it at Gohan before Piccolo out ran it. They can't move faster than the speed of light, if they did, Goku whouldn't need IT.



If characters move faster than the beam is doesnt suggest the beams are slower than light it suggests they moved faster than light.

If a blast reaches the moon in a second it is about light speed, if someone out runs that blast they are faster than light.

Later in the series the speed of the beams probably increased. what also has to be remembered is everything is somewhat slowed down for readers.



> Those blasts are energy blasts just like what Goku them thorw, Spiderman and Daredevil has dodge them.




Well if spiderman dodged a blast that reached the moon in a second, then he too moves at the speed of light, since the blast in dragonballz is faster than the ones spiderman faces your post there is irelevant.



> Prove it? Show evidence from the manga that stats that?



We are talking about gt, there is no manga to gt, so the actual anime is pure canon, read my previous post to get my explanation.



> Goku never made the universe colaspe.



In gt he did.



> You havn't brung anything, I've actually brung evidence proving that they aren't lightspeed though.



No, your evidence consist of they out run blasts, which prove they move at light speed, my evidence is they can dodge a blast which reaches the moon in a second, so they are close or above light speed. So yes i gave you a feat, kamehameha reaching the moon in a second.



> And I've proven that the blasts don't move at lightspeed. Raditz wasn't able to out run Goku's Kamehameha wave, ssj2 Goku (who doesn't fly at light speed) was barely out flying Cells Special Beam Cannon, and Nappa's energy blast wasn't even close to light speed when he threw it at Gohan before Piccolo out ran it. They can't move faster than the speed of light, if they did, Goku whouldn't need IT. Also, if Raditz was running at lightspeed, he whould have went around the Planet Earth alot of times, since light can travel around the Earth 7 times in a sec. Raditz wasn't even close to that and nether was Goku's Kamehameha wave.



He would need IT do you know why? if a planet is 4 lightyears away it would take him 4 years to reach travelling at light speed, with IT it is instand, hopping from planet to planet is faster with IT, another thing is gathering many people, going at light speed he could also hurt people and damage the environent. 

When vegeeta made that claim impossible, he could also be regarding to the fact that no damage was caused.

Them not dodging beams near the end, they would increase in speed as the series progressed, when master roshi fired his beam which moved at light speed, the others would most likely move faster by the end of the series as some could dodge roshi but not others.




You know i'm gonna do this to all my large posts,   makes it easier to navigate to certain posts.


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## Countach (Apr 1, 2006)

the only thing to do now is to end posting on this topic forever.  Both sides refuse to belive the others ablitys and point of views because they belive so strongly that they are right(my self included). 
We must accept the fact when you match up db/z/gt to dc their will never be a winner just an lot of posts from both sides that say the same thing over and over again.
*So for the love of god Stop Posting*


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## Id (Apr 1, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> the only thing to do now is to end posting on this topic forever.  Both sides refuse to belive the others ablitys and point of views because they belive so strongly that they are right(my self included).
> We must accept the fact when you match up db/z/gt to dc their will never be a winner just an lot of posts from both sides that say the same thing over and over again.
> *So for the love of god Stop Posting*





You make to many wild claims (500 times speed of lights and such yeah ok.) 

Yet you don?t back up any of your claims.

Bullet makes a good point. You must show something to back up your claims or shut up.

Now if you are going to use Filler feats from the anime. Then their should be no problem with me using pri-crisis, post-crisis, current superman feats.

Superman Prime is a what if (in a sense), and SS4 Gogeta is not canon. So those feats are in play as well..


For starers

Superman Prime is physically stronger.
Superman Prime holds more power.
Superman Prime is much Faster.
Superman Prime is much more Durable.

We go by feats, in this debate to declare a winner. And wild assumptions are not feats.

So unless you can post feats that disprove my Superman Prime Claims, don?t even bother. And that goes to anyone.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> Oh, coz vegito common script is based like '' yeh eat my universe destroying blast'' get real.
> 
> Buu was about the destroy the universe and he stopped it with a punch, on punch.
> 
> What to say he can't use those punches in succession against superman.



Again, Buu was breaking reality with a scream, Vegito just stoped him from screaming with a punch (that doesn't break time/space), that's all.



> If characters move faster than the beam is doesnt suggest the beams are slower than light it suggests they moved faster than light.




No it doesn't, since energy blasts in DBZ doesn't travel at lightspeed. 



> If a blast reaches the moon in a second it is about light speed, if someone out runs that blast they are faster than light.



No it doesn't, because there blasts aren't traveling at light speed. If they were lightspeed, why does Goku need IT (a techinque that allows him to travel at lightspeed) to get around the planet? Superman get across the planet anywhere he wants in a sec.



> Later in the series the speed of the beams probably increased. what also has to be remembered is everything is somewhat slowed down for readers.



Still doesn't make them lightspeed, since Goku or any other DBZ character weren't traveling at lightspeed even at the end of the seires. 



> Well if spiderman dodged a blast that reached the moon in a second, then he too moves at the speed of light, since the blast in dragonballz is faster than the ones spiderman faces your post there is irelevant.



And since the blasts don't travel at lightspeed in DBZ, Spiderman and Daredevil could dodge them. 




> We are talking about gt, there is no manga to gt, so the actual anime is pure canon, read my previous post to get my explanation.



Prove it? I've seen GT too.



> In gt he did.



No he didn't.



> No, your evidence consist of they out run blasts, which prove they move at light speed, my evidence is they can dodge a blast which reaches the moon in a second, so they are close or above light speed. So yes i gave you a feat, kamehameha reaching the moon in a second.




No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed. 



> He would need IT do you know why? if a planet is 4 lightyears away it would take him 4 years to reach travelling at light speed, with IT it is instand, hopping from planet to planet is faster with IT, another thing is gathering many people, going at light speed he could also hurt people and damage the environent.



Even without IT, he shouldn't need that technique to travel around Earth to get where he wants, since he should be able to travel at lightspeed right? 



> When vegeeta made that claim impossible, he could also be regarding to the fact that no damage was caused.



What part of the manga are you talking about where Vegeta says this? Show me the scans?



> Them not dodging beams near the end, they would increase in speed as the series progressed, when master roshi fired his beam which moved at light speed, the others would most likely move faster by the end of the series as some could dodge roshi but not others.



They're not light speed, read the above. And bring some proof?


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> No it doesn't, since energy blasts in DBZ doesn't travel at lightspeed.



Explain to me why it reached the moon i a second, do please.

250,000 miles is the distance of earth to moon, it travelled that speed in a second.

light speed i beleive is 186,300 mps.

So if i got the speed of light correct, kamehame ha travelled faster than light.



> No it doesn't, because there blasts aren't traveling at light speed. If they were lightspeed, why does Goku need IT (a techinque that allows him to travel at lightspeed) to get around the planet? Superman get across the planet anywhere he wants in a sec.



Because moving around at high speed is damaging to the environment, if goku was moving around light speed he would kill people, superman i dont think moves everywhere at light speed, well actually im basing this on flash, i beleive he goes 170mph around cities base speed to prevent damage.



> Even without IT, he shouldn't need that technique to travel around Earth to get where he wants, since he should be able to travel at lightspeed right?



If he feels to kill people, then he could do that.



> No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.



Blame that on wrong calculations, everything so far apart from wrong no. which is most likely down to maths skills, not many people know from the top of their head the speed of light.

Taking that not eveyone knows science, look at it from a diffrent point of view without figures, kamehameha reached the moon in what 1 second, above light speed. They are always dodging blasts that go at that speed, he has stated that he intended the characters to move light speed.

SO i am saying they move at speeds close to light speed.



> What part of the manga are you talking about where Vegeta says this? Show me the scans?



You were the one who brought this up, if i knew my bejin could move light speed, but i saw no damage around, i would say impossible.



> They're not light speed, read the above. And bring some proof?



I did bring proof, kamehameha reached the moon in a second.

The moon is 250,000,000 miles from the earth, so the beam had to be travelling at 250,000,000mps
Light moves at 185,000,000mps ( though i think it is faster that is what i got)

SO from that we see that the kamehameha would have been travelling faster than light.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> Explain to me why it reached the moon i a second, do please.
> 
> 250,000 miles is the distance of earth to moon, it travelled that speed in a second.
> 
> ...



Show me scans of them traveling at lightspeed?



> Because moving around at high speed is damaging to the environment, if goku was moving around light speed he would kill people, superman i dont think moves everywhere at light speed, well actually im basing this on flash, i beleive he goes 170mph around cities base speed to prevent damage.



Or it could just be that no DBZ character are cable of traveling at light speed! 



> If he feels to kill people, then he could do that.



Shouldn't the energy blasts destroy the enviroment since they travel at light speed? Bring evidence that they can travel at lightspeed please?



> Blame that on wrong calculations, everything so far apart from wrong no. which is most likely down to maths skills, not many people know from the top of their head the speed of light.
> 
> Taking that not eveyone knows science, look at it from a diffrent point of view without figures, kamehameha reached the moon in what 1 second, above light speed. They are always dodging blasts that go at that speed, he has stated that he intended the characters to move light speed.
> 
> SO i am saying they move at speeds close to light speed.




Or it could be that they aren't lightspeed!



> You were the one who brought this up, if i knew my bejin could move light speed, but i saw no damage around, i would say impossible.



I don't even know what you're talking about right here, so I'll skip it for now.



> I did bring proof, kamehameha reached the moon in a second.
> 
> The moon is 250,000,000 miles from the earth, so the beam had to be travelling at 250,000,000mps
> Light moves at 185,000,000mps ( though i think it is faster that is what i got)
> ...



No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Show me scans of them traveling at lightspeed?



I am not wasting my time uploading the picture on imageshack, it takes too long, if you want to see it go volume 5, then 3rd issue of volume 5.



> Or it could just be that no DBZ character are cable of traveling at light speed!



When z characters fight, they take the fight to a empty area, this proves that they take the enrivonment into consideration, knowing that it proves they will not travel at high speeds which will harm people.

That why you see them moving fastest in short burst, because if they travel long they will enter public areas.



> No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.
> ___________



Actually my feat proved they do move at light speed when using full capability, radidz could move faster than a car, and you can not deny that the blast are not near light speed.

I proved that they move around 250,000,000mps.


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> I am not wasting my time uploading the picture on imageshack, it takes too long, if you want to see it go volume 5, then 3rd issue of volume 5.



So you can't prove that they can travel at lightspeed, got it!



> When z characters fight, they take the fight to a empty area, this proves that they take the enrivonment into consideration, knowing that it proves they will not travel at high speeds which will harm people.



When they move to another area it's because they don't want to harm any civilians while they fight. Not because they move at lightspeed (because they don't).



> That why you see them moving fastest in short burst, because if they travel long they will enter public areas.



Or it could just be them moving from point A to point B when they're traveling. Like when Pikachu , Yusuke, or Kenshiro does when they use superspeed.



> Actually my feat proved they do move at light speed when using full capability, radidz could move faster than a car, and you can not deny that the blast are not near light speed.
> 
> I proved that they move around 250,000,000mps.



No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.

They're not close to lightspeed.


----------



## Shadow Replication 1480 (Apr 1, 2006)

> Explain to me why it reached the moon i a second, do please.
> 
> 250,000 miles is the distance of earth to moon, it travelled that speed in a second.
> 
> ...


Moi, from the second page of this thread:


> As for Roshi blowing up the moon, that was one of those stupid inconsistencies that manga/comic artists just gloss over in favor of advancing the plot.


Roshi's Kamehameha that destroyed the moon(same with Piccalo when *he* destroyed the moon later on to stop Gohan, though I think that was filler...) is no different than Flash saving like 1 million+ plus from an exploding nuke in less than 2 seconds(or whatever that ridiculous time was). It's just a damn plot device, not an actual feat at all.


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## Gunners (Apr 1, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> So you can't prove that they can travel at lightspeed, got it!



Dude, i have the issue sitting on my computer, i just can't bebothered to upload it, i kindly gave you the issue is occured be grateful.



> Shouldn't the energy blasts destroy the enviroment since they travel at light speed? Bring evidence that they can travel at lightspeed please?



Energy beams dont go across the world they usually travel within a set area, i gave you proof that they move at light speed actually above.

1 second for a kamehameha to reach the moom, the moon is 250,000,000 miles away.

speed for kamehameha = 250,000,000mps
light speed=185,000,000mps.

There proof that the blast moves light speed, granted i gave it to you before.



> No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.



I proved that the blast move at light speed by the time it took to reach the moon, if someone out runs the blast the equation is like this.

Person who out runs blast>blast>=light.

The author also stated that the characters were moving light speed in an interview. The dude is probably shit and science and maths, that simple. But seeing as he stated in an interview that his intention was them moving from really fast ( in the beggining) to light speed ( near the end).


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## Bullet (Apr 1, 2006)

> Dude, i have the issue sitting on my computer, i just can't bebothered to upload it, i kindly gave you the issue is occured be grateful.



I have it too, it doesn't stat that.



> Energy beams dont go across the world they usually travel within a set area, i gave you proof that they move at light speed actually above.
> 
> 1 second for a kamehameha to reach the moom, the moon is 250,000,000 miles away.
> 
> ...



No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. They weren't even close to being able to travel at light speed.


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## acritarch (Apr 1, 2006)

How is this "under a second" ?









That most definitely took more than a second to reach the moon. In fact, it probably took multiple seconds. Heck, even at the worst case senario is that we can't say for sure how long it took because they didn't actually give us a time frame for it. At least the Gottenks feat as well as the Roshi-Krillen fight had a time constraint on how much they did in a certain about of time so you can judge how fast they were moving.

As I've said before, DBZ characters are nowhere near close to light speed even at the end of the manga. Goku wouldn't need IT. Gohan, Piccolo, Vegita, etc. wouldn't need to search for Buu. Buu wouldn't have a hard time trying to find them on the earth. I don't even have to mention the Gottenks feat where he takes a nap and flies around the world several times in 29 minutes. Heh, not close to light speed. 

THEY JUST CAN'T TRAVEL LIGHT SPEED. SORRY.


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## Gunners (Apr 2, 2006)

*Spoiler*: __ 





> That most definitely took more than a second to reach the moon. In fact, it probably took multiple seconds. Heck, even at the worst case senario is that we can't say for sure how long it took because they didn't actually give us a time frame for it. At least the Gottenks feat as well as the Roshi-Krillen fight had a time constraint on how much they did in a certain about of time so you can judge how fast they were moving.



Look at the moment the blast left his hand, and look when everything blacks out, it took about a second to reach the moon, we know the blast reached there fast, under 5 seconds fast. With gotenks we have no proof he was going his fastest.




> Goku wouldn't need IT.



What fastest way to get to a planet 4 light years away, running at the speed of light ( taking 4 years to get there) using it, istand. My point proven.



> I don't even have to mention the Gottenks feat where he takes a nap and flies around the world several times in 29 minutes. Heh, not close to light speed.
> 
> THEY JUST CAN'T TRAVEL LIGHT SPEED. SORRY.



For a start how long did his nap last? and second,  people still lived on the earth at the time, he isnt going to go around at his fastest to kill them.


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## Bullet (Apr 2, 2006)

> What fastest way to get to a planet 4 light years away, running at the speed of light ( taking 4 years to get there) using it, istand. My point proven.



He means that Goku whouldn't need IT to get around planet Earth if he could travel at lightspeed (which he can't btw).



> For a start how long did his nap last? and second, people still lived on the earth at the time, he isnt going to go around at his fastest to kill them.



Or it could be that they aren't lightspeed!


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## Gunners (Apr 2, 2006)

> Or it could be that they aren't lightspeed!



Once again, you choose to look at the side that benifits you.

Facts:
They care about the earth.
Travelling light speed would destroy the earth
Kamehameha reached the moon in about a second
Character dodge kamehameha waves ( meaning they can dodge light speed attacks, and possibly move close to those speeds since you pointed out that they out ran the beam).



> He means that Goku whouldn't need IT to get around planet Earth if he could travel at lightspeed (which he can't btw).



Destruction to the earth, when he has it why would he zoom round the earth and possibly destroy it when he can just use it.

WHen you look at the fights that occur and the damage created, that could happen if they charged around maximum speed.


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## Bullet (Apr 2, 2006)

> Once again, you choose to look at the side that benifits you.
> 
> Facts:
> They care about the earth.
> ...




No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. If he was traveling at light speed, 600,000 miles whould nothing. They aren't close to being able to travel at light speed.

Also there was nowhere in the manga where they say that if they move fast they'll destroy the enviroment (just something you're making up).


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## acritarch (Apr 2, 2006)

Gunners, I don't know why you are choosing the "extreme" view that they are light speed when they obviously aren't later in the series. How then can they be light speed earlier in the manga? ROFL. It doesn't make any sense. 

Facts:
1. Goku traveling snake way can't travel the "1,000,000" km in a few seconds... takes 2 days. 
2. No one can find anyone on Namek instantly. 
3. The whole Z team can't find any one instantly during the Cell Saga (searching for Cell). 
4. Cell can't find 17 & 18 instantly. He has to blow up islands that are close together instead? ROFL. If he was even close to light speed, searching the islands would've taken a second at most.
5. Gohan and the other guy he was flying with don't instantly catch up to Goku and Kaioshin when they are trying to find Babadi. 
6. The Gottenks feat. 
7. They can't instantly find Buu when they are fighting him nor can Buu instantly find them. 
8. Goku's IT is USEFUL on earth (e.g. Roshi's sunglasses).
9. There's obviously many more I can't think of.
10. They care about the earth, BUT traveling light speed would not destroy the earth because...

This is not the "real world" clearly and obviously real world physics don't apply to it otherwise the Kamehameha's that were charged to destroy Cell, Buu, Gohan, Goku, etc. during the Cell and Buu Sagas would have destroyed the earth instead of making big craters or destroyin cities. Clearly the earth has more durability or their blasts are actually hella weak. Moving that fast at the Budokais would've created tornados which never happened. 

DC is the real world. When Flash actually moves over the sound barrier there ACTUALLY IS a sonic boom unlike in DB! And his wake does create tornados and lots of wind if he moves too fast. The same goes for Supes. DB/Z is not the real world and real world physics don't apply to it. The only claim it has to the "real world" is that it's called earth, but that doesn't justify it.

All of the feats you are looking at are, imo, exaggerated in some sense and then you are taking them to the extreme. Just like Tao Pie Pie throwing a column for 10+ miles. He is obviously not a class 100 character, but he does this? Heck, to do this, he would have to be at least a "class 1,000,000" to generate that much power. It really is just to show he is powerful. Goku later in the series struggles with the 2 tons in non-SS mode. Come on, heh. Cell gathering up enough energy to blow up the solar system when the "fully charged" Kamehamehas just make large craters on the ground? Right. Kamehameha beams going light speed in early DB? Of course.   

I'd say the facts are stacked against you.


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## Gunners (Apr 2, 2006)

> Send a message via AIM to braindx
> 
> Default
> Gunners, I don't know why you are choosing the "extreme" view that they are light speed when they obviously aren't later in the series. How then can they be light speed earlier in the manga? ROFL. It doesn't make any sense.
> ...



Yes it would destroy the earth, it has been shown when they power up to certain extent, and move fast, things move. Just read and you will se what i mean. Things will move out of place, i know it isnt the world, but they still seem to care about their actions an how i would damage the earth.



> All of the feats you are looking at are, imo, exaggerated in some sense and then you are taking them to the extreme. Just like Tao Pie Pie throwing a column for 10+ miles. He is obviously not a class 100 character, but he does this? Heck, to do this, he would have to be at least a "class 1,000,000" to generate that much power. It really is just to show he is powerful. Goku later in the series struggles with the 2 tons in non-SS mode. Come on, heh. Cell gathering up enough energy to blow up the solar system when the "fully charged" Kamehamehas just make large craters on the ground? Right. Kamehameha beams going light speed in early DB? Of course.
> 
> I'd say the facts are stacked against you.



No i would say the facts are pretty even putting things either way, you can choose to look at it my way or your way, the fact is tao through that block so it can be used as a feat, goku struggled with 2 tons that can also be used as a feat.

I will use to look at tao feat.

Same with the speed, diffrent things prove diffrent things, i look at the parts the author wished to highlight, them moving near light speed, you look at the part that is not the autors intention, whatever.



> Kamehameha beams going light speed in early DB? Of course.



You can strike that confused look all you want, fact remains if something reaches the moon in a second it is moving faster than light.


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## acritarch (Apr 2, 2006)

> Same with the speed, diffrent things prove diffrent things, i look at the parts the author wished to highlight, them moving near light speed, you look at the part that is not the autors intention, whatever.



How is _showing the speed of a beam that is_ destroying the moon part of the author's intention? Exactly. It is the same thing I am drawing on. The only feats where the author's intention on their speed is shown is when we have specific time frames and a distances. These feats are:

1. Goku traveling the 1,000,000 km snake way in 2 days.
2. Gottenks traveling around the world several times and taking a nap in 29 minutes.

Both are NOT indicative of light speed. Therefore, you are wrong if we went by your criteria.

-------------

I actually editted my post, so here's some stuff I put in there that you missed:

This is not the "real world" clearly and obviously real world physics don't apply to it otherwise the Kamehameha's that were charged to destroy Cell, Buu, Gohan, Goku, etc. during the Cell and Buu Sagas would have destroyed the earth instead of making big craters or destroyin cities. Clearly the earth has more durability or their blasts are actually hella weak. Moving that fast at the Budokais would've created tornados which never happened. 

DC is the real world. When Flash actually moves over the sound barrier there ACTUALLY IS a sonic boom unlike in DB! And his wake does create tornados and lots of wind if he moves too fast. The same goes for Supes. DB/Z is not the real world and real world physics don't apply to it. The only claim it has to the "real world" is that it's called earth, but that doesn't justify it.



> Yes it would destroy the earth, it has been shown when they power up to certain extent, and move fast, things move. Just read and you will se what i mean. Things will move out of place, i know it isnt the world, but they still seem to care about their actions an how i would damage the earth.



After reading what I wrote there you still stick to this opinion? Yeah, they only care about their ki attacks destroying the earth. They don't care about their speed. If their speed was greater than sound (which it is at least towards the ends of the series), then how come we don't see sonic booms and devastation on the earth from tornados and whatnot? Oh wait that's right, earth in DBZ isn't the real world. Real world physics don't apply.


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## Gunners (Apr 2, 2006)

> Both are NOT indicative of light speed. Therefore, you are wrong if we went by your criteria.



Also counting on the fact that not everyone is good at maths and calculations, going by the fact that the author himself stated that the characters by the end were moving speed of light, yes i would say he intended them to move that speed.



> After reading what I wrote there you still stick to this opinion? Yeah, they only care about their ki attacks destroying the earth. They don't care about their speed. If their speed was greater than sound (which it is at least towards the ends of the series), then how come we don't see sonic booms and devastation on the earth from tornados and whatnot? Oh wait that's right, earth in DBZ isn't the real world. Real world physics don't apply.



For some reason i remembered seeing things like that when they fought, i might have to check up on that, but to my knowledge things like earth moving, actually happened.



> This is not the "real world" clearly and obviously real world physics don't apply to it otherwise the Kamehameha's that were charged to destroy Cell, Buu, Gohan, Goku, etc. during the Cell and Buu Sagas would have destroyed the earth instead of making big craters or destroyin cities. Clearly the earth has more durability or their blasts are actually hella weak. Moving that fast at the Budokais would've created tornados which never happened.



You do realise they can control the spread of their attacks, so it would only damage a specific area?


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## Countach (Apr 2, 2006)

here is some math

the speed of light is
299,792,458 mps

in dbz it took a space ship from earth traveling at lightspeed 4 months to get to namik.  later on in chapter 199 goku traveled to new namik wich is just as far in a sec.
so if 4 months to get to namik, thats 1/3 of a year.
a year is 365 days, 365/3=122 days(rounded up).
in a day there are 24 hours, so 122 x 24=2928
in a hour there are 60 min., so 2928 x 60=175,680
in a min. there are 60 sec., so 175,680 x 60=10,540,800
so to figure out how fast goku went we multiply 
299,792,458 by 10,540,800 wich = 3,160,052,341,000,000 mps
So to figure out how many times the speed of light that is we take
3,160,052,341,000,000 mps and divide it by 299,792,458 mps to get
10,540,800
so when goku uses the Instant Transmition he can travel 10,540,80 x the speed of light.
Theirs a feat


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## Bullet (Apr 2, 2006)

> Yes it would destroy the earth, it has been shown when they power up to certain extent, and move fast, things move. Just read and you will se what i mean. Things will move out of place, i know it isnt the world, but they still seem to care about their actions an how i would damage the earth.



Show me a scans then of when they fly they destroy the enviroment? 



> Same with the speed, diffrent things prove diffrent things, i look at the parts the author wished to highlight, them moving near light speed, you look at the part that is not the autors intention, whatever.



Which proves that they aren't lightspeed!



> You can strike that confused look all you want, fact remains if something reaches the moon in a second it is moving faster than light.



No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. If he was traveling at light speed, 600,000 miles whould nothing. They aren't close to being able to travel at light speed.

Also there was nowhere in the manga where they say that if they move fast they'll destroy the enviroment (just something you're making up).




> You do realise they can control the spread of their attacks, so it would only damage a specific area?



No they can't. They can control the energy blasts when they release it, but once it make contact with something and explode, they don't have control of it anymore.



> here is some math
> 
> the speed of light is
> 299,792,458 mps
> ...



IT is just a teleport, not his actual speed.


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## acritarch (Apr 2, 2006)

This is what happens in the real world when you move at high speeds.









I repeat, DBZ earth is not the real world and does not abide by real world physics.

I freely admit that their spaceships can move light speed, and Goku's IT transcends space and time (e.g. IT goes beyond the speed of light). HOWEVER, none of the characters are even CLOSE to the speed of light. I don't care what Toriyama says, they don't move at light speed. Even if he DID say they do (which no one has gotten proof of by the way), then your position of real world physics is untenable AND the feats in the story disprove what he says. Either way, you're in over your head.


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2006)

> I don't care what Toriyama says,



Am i the only one that finds this the slightest bit ignorant, you dont care what the authors intentions are, that proves that you are willing to deny from every angle that the characters can't move light speed, even when facts like them dodging light speed attacks is shown, or them out running light speed attacks.


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## Toffeeman (Apr 3, 2006)

The key person in this fight is SSJ4 Gogeta..

Why? Because as far as we're concerned, anyone that tries to so much as lay a finger on him would get smacked around with ease. That is, after all, the only real gauge of his strength that he's ever shown.

So for me im undecided.


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## acritarch (Apr 3, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Am i the only one that finds this the slightest bit ignorant, you dont care what the authors intentions are, that proves that you are willing to deny from every angle that the characters can't move light speed, even when facts like them dodging light speed attacks is shown, or them out running light speed attacks.



1. No one has backed up that claim with proof.

2. Events in the manga don't state they are that fast. MAYBE after Goku went to train Ubuu, but I highly doubt that. I still don't believe Goku can ever pass Mystic Gohan who had his full potential unlocked.

Also, if writers say that their people are supposed to be something or do something and don't back it up with drawings/comics, why should we believe them?

3. So you agree with me that DBZ earth doesn't have real world physics?

4. Are you going to dispute that they don't have light speed? The only basis for your claim is Toriyama saying that atm, which is unsubstatiated.


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2006)

> Also, if writers say that their people are supposed to be something or do something and don't back it up with drawings/comics, why should we believe them?



If the author says that their characters are capable of doing something, it is correct, because they create the characters. If he killed goku in the manga and said no he didnt die, he just lives on mars now that would be correct.



> 3. So you agree with me that DBZ earth doesn't have real world physics?



It is a mixture, if they do certain things, it take similar effects as our world, like moving high speeds.



> 4. Are you going to dispute that they don't have light speed? The only basis for your claim is Toriyama saying that atm, which is unsubstatiated.



No, i pointed out another fact of the kamehameha reaching the moon in a second.


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## Bullet (Apr 3, 2006)

> No, i pointed out another fact of the kamehameha reaching the moon in a second.



And I pointed out:

No it proves that their energy blasts aren't lightspeed and that they can't travel at light speed, since Raditz at the beginning of DBZ was about as fast as a car. Which makes them way slower than light speed. The manga stated that Snake Way is 600,000 miles long. When Goku finished his training, he traveled Snake Way again in 2 days. If he was traveling at light speed, 600,000 miles whould nothing. They aren't close to being able to travel at light speed.


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## ZE (Apr 3, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> You know damm well the Dbztards will come to this thread


Oh my god, its obvious just vegito is enough to deal with superboy, vegito is the strongest, vegito vegito can kill who ever he wants, vegito is the entity created by the two most powerful characters in the manga. HAHAHA


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## Bullet (Apr 3, 2006)

ZE said:
			
		

> Oh my god, its obvious just vegito is enough to deal with superboy, vegito is the strongest, vegito vegito can kill who ever he wants, vegito is the entity created by the two most powerful characters in the manga. HAHAHA



Vegito is the strongest in his universe, but out side there are characters more powerful than him. Like Superman!


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## ZE (Apr 3, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Vegito is the strongest in his universe, but out side there are characters more powerful than him. Like Superman!


Superman is a mere alien, the strongest aliens are the saiyans, they can transform in supersaiyan, can superboy transform? Superboy was under freezer control, I know that, freezer must have killed him in the dragon ball universe, since freezer controlled all the universe.


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## Bullet (Apr 3, 2006)

ZE said:
			
		

> Superman is a mere alien, the strongest aliens are the saiyans, they can transform in supersaiyan, can superboy transform? Superboy was under freezer control, I know that, freezer must have killed him in the dragon ball universe, since freezer controlled all the universe.



Superman doesn't need a transformation, he's more powerful then any of them even at their highest level. Superman isn't apart of the DBZ universe and he'll KO Freeza (or even kill him) with just a little punch.


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## Fenix (Apr 3, 2006)

Zomg a thread createc by American Comic fanbois to lure out the anime/manga fanbois

We clearly need more threads like these


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Firemaw said:
			
		

> Zomg a thread createc by American Comic fanbois to lure out the anime/manga fanbois
> 
> We clearly need more threads like these



Hey! Dont try to point out the obvious


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## Gunners (Apr 3, 2006)

Id, you knew this would happen.

I bet where ever you are, you are sat in your chair laughing at your horrible creation.


Dam you, dam you to hell.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

Can someone make a list of Superman Prime's powers, I can't find shit about him on the net besides pictures and other forums claiming, "He pwns!"  It's hard to make a reasonable argument if it's not clear what he can do, since so far it's mostly been, "Vegitto would pwn."  "No, Superman would pwn."


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## Toffeeman (Apr 3, 2006)

Is Gogeta being ignored for any particular reason, may I ask?

Even if you can claim that Superman could take down Vegito, what then of Gogeta? This _is_ a double-team after all, is it not?


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## Gambitz (Apr 3, 2006)

why does everyone think superman is invincible he cant even detroy planets let alone destroy 2 of the strongest sayians vegito could just destroy the planet's with super man on on it done or gogeta ss4 uses big bank kamahamaha and destroys superman and all the planets in the beams direction.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

drunken master said:
			
		

> why does everyone think superman is invincible he cant even detroy planets let alone destroy 2 of the strongest sayians vegito could just destroy the planet's with super man on on it done or gogeta ss4 uses big bank kamahamaha and destroys superman and all the planets in the beams direction.


Everyone is talking about Superman Prime, not regular Superman.  Prime apparently is cosmic level.  Will anyone make a list of his powers?


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Found something on the net, just wanted to share.

Page 1 ()

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Page 4 ()

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age 7 ()

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Page 12 ()

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## Countach (Apr 3, 2006)

wow superman can beat ssj goku.  From that I highly doubt that superman can handle ssj2 or ssj3 from what i saw in the comic/manga.  Not to mention that goku could just use the IT to get away from that move superman did.

*Great drawings, props.*


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> wow superman can beat ssj goku.  From that I highly doubt that superman can handle ssj2 or ssj3 from what i saw in the comic/manga.  Not to mention that goku could just use the IT to get away from that move superman did.
> 
> *Great drawings, props.*




Yeah. I like to give you DBZtards a lil glimpse of hope before I plumed you with a bunch of scans that proves Superman Superiority in his weakest form.


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Superman Is more durable.

Superman taking a blast equal to a million nuclear blasts.


Here's Superman actually escaping a double black hole (which beats every feat ssj3/4 Goku or any DBZ/GT character has ever done), this proves his strength, speed, and durability. 



Here is supes surviving an island destroying nuke at ground zero WHILE laying in kryptonite AND weakened from fighting multiple enemies for days. He comes out unfazed.





Supes hearing something from the earths core while he is in space...and pinpoints it perfectly. Also notice the extreme cold and being covered in ice doesnt even cause him the slightest discomfort.



Here is a strength feat. Superman Moving a planet.


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## Gambitz (Apr 3, 2006)

> Here's Superman actually escaping a double black hole (which beats every feat ssj3/4 Goku or any DBZ/GT character has ever done), this proves his strength, speed, and durability.


Dude have u seen dbz


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Id, you knew this would happen.
> 
> I bet where ever you are, you are sat in your chair laughing at your horrible creation.
> 
> ...



Hey, its an honest fight......good for some kicks and gigles.

Im still getting the next wave of scans to prove Superman> any DBZ cara.

Supes Prime >>>>>>>>>>>>>DBZ cara.


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

drunken master said:
			
		

> Dude have u seen dbz


yes I have. Have you read Superman comics?

If not its ok here some more scans.

Superman taking several blasts from Darsieds Omega Beams.
here

here


Supes containing an island sized nuclear explosion before it affects the surrounding environment, fusing it, and theneffortlessly tossing the explosion into the sun.

Note: This was also done right after exposure to kryptonite.
here




By the way - here's PC Supes doing the same feat after exposure to magic.

Link removed

Then chucks it all into space at close to lightspeed.

Link removed


Supes living (although very sick) with Kryptonite in his body. He was around like this for quite a while and still somewhat functional and as shown in this scan, still fairly invulnerable. It's not the instant kill people think it is.
Link removed

Superman taking s hypersonic attack in the face that is the equivalent of ten atomic bombs in his skull.

Link removed


Here is a pic of Superman Prime recreating Lois.
Link removed

Here he is easily surviving the explosion of a planet while being in the dead center of it.
Link removed


While we're at it, here he is "chillin" in the heart of the sun. A place where the gravity, radiation, heat, and explosions are far above just planet destroying.

Link removed


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## Gambitz (Apr 3, 2006)

the links u posted are childs play compared to vegito and ss4 gogeta's power


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

drunken master said:
			
		

> the links u posted are childs play compared to vegito and ss4 gogeta




I dont see you posting anything proving Vegito or Gogeta is greater then Superman.

Prove it. Post Vegitos/Gogetas Greatest Feats.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 3, 2006)

drunken master said:
			
		

> the links u posted are childs play compared to vegito and ss4 gogeta



Perhaps you should remember that most those feats are of regular superman. Superman Prime>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Regular Superman.

Power's gleened from the edges of time and space, living in the sun for thousands of years, powering Superman 1 mil which is compareable to PC Superman, etc....


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## TDM (Apr 3, 2006)

> the links u posted are childs play compared to vegito and ss4 gogeta


Oh yeah? Prove it.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

We know what Superman can do..... *What can Prime do!?!*


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> We know what Superman can do..... *What can Prime do!?!*




I dont have any Prme Supes scans. 


What about you Bullet do you any P. Supes Scans.


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Kyle Rayner (Who has some impressive feats of his own..IMO) giving Supes props by calling him the "Top of the food chain"
Link removed

Superman overcoming two of his weaknesses during battle. Red sunlight and K-nite. He had to defeat Eclipso while not getting mad in the process.

He even impressed Eclipso with his speed after being hit with red solar radiation.
Link removed

Here's Superman outmanuevering a blitzing Bizarro, someone who raced Zoom to a near stalemate.
Link removed


Superman vs. Etrigan

Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface, all the way to the moon (239,000 miles). Superman was virtually unfazed. He also shrugged off magical demon-fire and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases.





Superman fixed a collapsing sky srcaper in the time it took him to say 3 words.

Link removed

Flys through wormhole

Link removed

Year One Superman successfully resists the pull of a mini blackhole 
Link removed

Here's Superman surviving another black hole.
Link removed


This one didn't seem to really hurt Superman either, but he was able to throw it before it exploded (it's also a good strength feat)
Link removed


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## Shadow Replication 1480 (Apr 3, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> We know what Superman can do..... *What can Prime do!?!*


If you had read every post in this thread, you'd have seen the link I posted like 2 pages ago that had Supes Prime's bio and list of powers.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> If you had read every post in this thread, you'd have seen the link I posted like 2 pages ago that had Supes Prime's bio and list of powers.


Whoops, I didn't see that...


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Sometimes Superman is hit so hard that he leaves orbit, but he always returns: 

Link removed

More impressive, imo, are the times Superman has gotten up from being smashed to the Earth or other planets... 
Link removed

Link removed

Supes absorbing the Mageddon Warhead. Literally. Notice how it goes from Black to Glowing after Supes is done.
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed

Here is a good Speed Feat.
Link removed


Here is a cool speed feat from Action Comics #835. Louis Lane was shot on the other side of Metropolis but Supes heard the gun shot and blocked the bullet before it hit her.

Supes is the f*cking man.

Link removed

30-ton megabomb he was still alive.
Link removed


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

In Superman Man of Steel #66, he once again acted as an effective shield, protecting cities around the world by blocking numerous "atom-smashing" force beams with his body. At one point he had 6 such beams trained on him simultaneously. 

In Adventures of Superman #581, Superman allowed Adversary, a powerful magical foe, to hit him as hard as he could, without retaliation. Superman was literally punched halfway across the planet- from Metropolis, he literally landed in China- without any injury or loss of consciousness 

But forget about being punched across the planet to China, how about through the planet to China? In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his magically-created, brain damaged, "imperfect" duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro's body) punched Bizarro (in Superman's body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman's body) was slammed in through the ground in Metropolis and came out two panels later in China. He was shown ripping straight through the Earth?s crust, mantle, and core, and coming out on the other side of the planet. Superman's body was fully conscious and completely unharmed by the blow (Bizarro was smiling as usual). 

In Man of Tomorrow #13, Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blast from Orion's Astro-Harness that blasted him across the planet from the North Pole to India. 

Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases. 

In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to "a million nuclear bombs" (according to the energy being Waverider). The explosion was caused by the destruction of the power generator for the entire planet of Calaton; the energy was drawn from the planetary core. Superman did not suffer any physical damage, but was momentarily rendered inert, and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast. 

In Adventures of Superman #478, as part of the Time and Time Again storyline, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. The moon had been lined with sufficient nuclear devices to disintegrate it in one shot. When the moon was obliterated, Superman was actually within the moon (structures had been built beneath the surface of the moon). He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. 

Superman's ability to survive immersion in the sun is well documented by now. In Adventures of Superman #480, Superman survived immersion in the sun for the first time, but with great difficulty. This was actually a RED sun at the time, due to the Eradicator's interference. In both the Superman: Last God of Krypton one shot and Superman Man of Steel #50, Superman survived immersion in the outer layers of the Earth's yellow sun enjoyably, received extra power from the sun, and effortlessly escaped the sun?s gravitational pull. Furthermore, in both Action Comics # 782 and Superman Man of Steel #64, Superman survived the core of the sun without any problems. The pressure at the core of the sun is equal to 250 billion Earth atmospheres. 

In JLA #41, Superman absorbed the energy of the Mageddon Warhead, a device capable, at the minimum, of vaporizing half a galaxy. Writer Grant Morrison intended Mageddon to be "the primordial annihilator" capable of literally destroying everything. Visibly distressed by the absorption, Superman still suffered no harm whatsoever, and even smiled afterwards. 

Man of Steel #30: Standing on Earth's surface, Superman punched Lobo into orbit and beyond with one uppercut. 

Adventure of Superman #473: From Earth, Superman threw an alien space craft clear of Earth?s gravity and into outer space. This craft was larger than an aircraft carrier and over a mile long (a typical aircraft carrier is about a 1/4 of a mile long and weighs about 100,000 tons, so this ship was about 4x that size) 

Several events show Superman as a moon-mover. In JLA # 7, as Electro-Superman, he halted the fall of the Moon towards Earth (caused by Neron's magical machinations), then moved the Moon back its proper position in orbit. He later commented that he's more powerful as "regular" Superman. Writer Grant Morrison and artist Howard Porter had originally intended the moon-moving event in JLA #7 be done by "regular" Superman , but DC forced them to use Electro-Supes. This event is butressed by several more. In JLA: The Century War, ancient "alchemical engines" were causing the moon to fall towards the Earth. Superman and Green Lantern took turns holding the moon back against the "geometrically increasing force" that was causing it to fall. Superman got the last "moon-bracing" shift. In Superman Man of Steel #30, Superman grabbed, easily broke the forward movement of, and easily threw in the opposite direction, a space ship the size of a small moon. In JLA # 58, Superman , Wonder Woman and Green Lantern collaborated to tow Earth's moon a distance of 238,900 miles in mere seconds, indicating a fantastic acceleration, and then pulled the moon out of Earth's gravity (which increases its weight tremendously). As he is universally regarded as the JLA's most powerful member, I'm inclined to give Superman more than one-third, and - conservatively - about one-half, the work effort. In the Lex 2000 special, with a single strike, Superman split one of Saturn's moons in half. Saturn's moons are small moons. 


Action Comics #782: After emerging from the sun energized, Superman physically pushed WarWorld, (a small, Pluto-sized planet) across the solar system and into a boom tube. WarWorld did engage a "full throttle countermeasure" in resistance Superman?s push. We can see WarWorld's engines (which encompass nearly an entire hemisphere of WarWorld's surface) firing in resistance, to no avail. WarWorld's engines allow WarWorld to travel at faster than light speeds through space, so they generate the power to accelerate a planet beyond light speed. "How is he moving my planet! The Kryptonian does not have that power!" Braniac's disbelief is reasonable since WarWorld's engines had no shortage of power ; WarWorld had just pirated the energy of Imperiex - energy gleaned from the devouring of many galaxies. (Hence Imperiex's reputation as the "Devourer of Galaxies.") Please note that Superman was energized beyond his usual power levels at this time. 

Action Comics Annual #7: Fighting in space, Superman successfully resisted the pull from a black hole that had opened up directly below (inches from) his feet. The miniature black hole had been induced by advanced alien (Ht'ros) war technology. 

Superman #13: Flew around the equator in a matter of seconds, indicating a speed of well over 1,000,000 mph, or roughly 1350 times the speed of sound. 

Man of Steel #110: Standing in one spot, Superman used his super speed to vibrate his body invisible.


----------



## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Superman #175: Taking another speed trick from the Flash?s book of tricks, Superman used his super speed to vibrate his body intangible, thus allowing Doomsday's punches and fire-breath to pass harmlessly through him. A body moving at light speed within an atmosphere will become intangible (that's how the Flash does it). 

Return of Superman: Superman used his speed to vibrate his arm so fast, it shattered the Cyborg?s body into hundreds of fragments. 

After racing the Man of Steel, Impulse stated that Superman travels at 99% of the speed of light. 

War of the Gods #4: Superman actually out-raced an energy beam to its target. In JLA: Heavens Ladder, it is stated that Superman can race a photon to its target. 

Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time. 

Superman #167: His power waning under a red sun, Superman still summoned enough heat vision to successfully power Jor-El's planet-moving ion engines. The planet in this case had a mass 16 times that of Earth's. 

Superman's heat vision has a maximum range of at least 239,000 miles (the distance from the Earth to the Moon). In Superman #101, he let out a beam from Earth's surface that scorched the surface of the moon; In Man of Steel #112, he shot a beam that bounced off the surface of the moon. Krypto did, too. 

In John Byrne's Man of Steel revamp, it was shown that Superman's microscopic vision can see on the subcellular level, as he analyzed Bizarro?s cellular structure; and even on the molecular level, as he analyzed the molecular composition of Magpie's acid-gas. 

In the JLA: Earth 2 graphic novel, the Martian Manhunter and Superman mulled over the abnormalities at "every eighth angstrom" in the DNA of the anti-matter Earth's version of Lex Luthor. An angstrom is about the size of a large atom. 

Superman #152: Superman's telescopic vision allowed him to peer across the galaxy to WarWorld. 

In Man of Steel #121, Superman's super-hearing allowed him to pinpoint a single person in a city of 11 million based on such distinctive sounds as the rustle of that person's clothing and the sound of their heartbeat. 

Soul Search: Fighting alone in Hell (literally), Superman single-handedly defeated Blaze, a death goddess, in her own realm. This had never been accomplished before by anyone; Blaze has magical control over the very reality of her realm. The attacks that Superman fought off included magical transmutation into a demon, which he shook off through sheer willpower ; magical energy blasts from Blaze ; a magical spell that encased him in stone, which he subsequently shattered; and immersion in the lava lakes of this magical dimension. 

Alone against the Daxamite Lar Gand, (Daxamites are the genetic cousins to, but reputed to be more powerful than, Kryptonians), Superman soundly KO'd Lar, despite the fact that Superman was operating on empty lungs on the airless surface of the moon (Lar had air in his lungs however). 

Action Comics Annual #7: Alone, Superman twice defeated alien armadas, each capable of destroying a planet. 

Superman #153: Superman became the first being ever in the history of the Universe to defeat an Imperiex probe. He used a combination of super speed and super strength to destroy an Imperiex space construct ; said construct was capable of annihilating our solar system. Note that Superman took a blast from Imperiex, the beam aforementioned as being able to vaporize a solar system. 

More On Kal-El's Durability.Thanks to Jak Sacul 

Adventures of Superman #477: survives being at ground zero of an imploding sun-eater, followed by a plummet to Earth. KO'd; otherwise OK afterwards. 

Adventures of Superman #478: survives the nuclear obliteration of the Earth's moon )in the 31st century, IIRC) without batting an eye. 

Adventures #480: takes a dive into the outer layers of a red sun. 

Man of Steel #64, Action Comics #782: goes into the core of a yellow sun. 

Action Comics #696: takes a trip through a cosmic wormhole. 

Hunter/Prey #3: weathers ground zero of the supposed "million nukes" blast on Calaton. 

JLA/JSA Virtue/Vice: Goes through a black hole. Not sure if Sentinel protected him or not - it's not clear from the story. 

Superman #9: weathers ground zero of a 40 megaton nuke followed by a fall to Earth from outer space. KO'd for a half hour, OK afterwards. 

Superman for All Seasons #1 and Trinity #1: impressively endures ground zero nukes without loss of consciousness or injury. 

Superman/Fantastic Four: the disputed "adamantium cutting lasers" event. 

JLA: Created Equal #2: goes through a black hole (out of continuity). 

Adventures of Superman #595: impressively resists Darkseid's Omega Beams. 

Superman #181: Takes a punch from the magically created Bizarro creature which slams him clear through the Earth, in the ground through Metropolis, through the curst mantle and core and out through China. No injury or loss of consciousness. Smiles afterwards. 

Man of Steel #127: takes an island-destroying nuke while sitting in Kryptonite-laced sand. No injury or loss of consciousness. 

War of the Gods #4: blocks a magical beam capable of destroying an island (Paradise Island). Fails to completely mitigate the blast's effect - one person dies. Apparently briefly KO'd or at least in great pain as a result; otherwise OK at issue's end. 

Adventures #581: takes a punch from a magical being that knocks him clear from Metropolis to China. No injury or loss of consciousness. Says "ouch". 

Action #762: takes a punch from Etrigan the Demon that sends him from Metropolis to the Moon. No injury or loss of consciousness. Says "unff." 

Trial of Superman (don't know the issues): survives various planet-powered particle beams from the Cyborg, one of which was said by the Cyborg to be capable of levelling a city. ("Believe me, I'd know" spake the Cyborg.) 

*Need I remind everyone that this is almost the weakest canon version of Superman we've ever seen?*


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

Hold up.  I'm confused...


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> SUPERMAN PRIME
> 
> Kal-El at his height as Superman in the twentieth and twenty first centuries was one of the most powerful of the founding superheroes. Like all Kryptonians exposed to a yellow sun his cells became living solar batteries absorbing solar energy and literally supercharging every natural physical ability he possessed. He possessed vast super strength, was nigh invulnerable to anything short of a nuclear blast and possessed the ability to fly by shear effort of will. This Kryptonian powers also granted him numerous sensory abilities including perception of the vast majority of the EM spectrum, telescopic vision and super hearing. At will he could also expel stored solar energy out of his eyes as a form of "heat ray". His only vulnerabilities were the radioactive mineral Kryptonite and a susceptibility to magical influence.
> 
> ...


How many Supermen are there?  Cuz here:


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> The sum of the abilities of the Superman Dynasty *as displayed by Superman M** is quite impressive. He is capable to travelling faster than the speed of light (but only under the influence of the Super-Sun), he is also strong enough to punch through the time barrier, leap between planets and invulnerable to practically everything. Along with the traditional Kryptonian senses ten new abilities were added to the Dynasty by the marriage of a Superman to Queen Gzntplzk of the Fifth Dimension. These new abilities include techno-rapport (the ability to control computers), limited control of magnetism, genesis level intellect, super-ESP (a form of super-hypnosis), no longer as susceptible to magic, the ability to think billions of different lines of thought at the same time, etc. However all these abilities are dependent on the covenant with Supermen Prime, they are his gifts to give or revoke at will.


...It looks like this Superman M* is the one to watch out for.  Is that just another way to say Superman Prime?  Comicbook guys, help me out here, 
please?

It's gonna take all night for me to read all the info you're giving Id, thanks!


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

Superman M is the Son of Superman Prime. (I think)

And Superman Prime Bestows upon M his powers.

He is like a herld of Superman Prime.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Superman M is the Son of Superman Prime. (I think)
> 
> And Superman Prime Bestows upon M his powers.
> 
> He is like a herld of Superman Prime.


Oooooohhhhhh!  So Superman Prime is so powerful, he can give away some(or most, or all?) of his power, and the power he is giving away makes his son _that_ powerful?


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> Oooooohhhhhh!  So Superman Prime is so powerful, he can give away some(or most, or all?) of his power, and the power he is giving away makes his son _that_ powerful?




Yup.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

Hold on, how much of his power is he giving away?


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## Id (Apr 3, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> Hold on, how much of his power is he giving away?



enough for M supes to pull of those crazy feats, and not effect Prime.


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## Ippy (Apr 3, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> enough for M supes to pull of those crazy feats, and not effect Prime.


$***, then it's not even close.  Gogeta and Vegetto might be able to get a few hits off before they get sodomized.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 3, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Superman M is the Son of Superman Prime. (I think)
> 
> And Superman Prime Bestows upon M his powers.
> 
> He is like a herld of Superman Prime.



Superman M is just another way of saying Superman 1 million (the superman from the 853rd Century). He wasnt Superman Prime's son, he was a very very distant relitive.

And yes, Superman Prime basically made him his hareld.

"Then one day, at the turn of the 700th century--Literally from out of the blue -- A haunted ishmael drifted back to his adopted Planet. No longer quite human, yet he had about him an air of deepest melancholy. He looked like one who had gone so far as to crash the gates of Heaven and still not found that for which he searched......He sought out the current Superman, the Millenia-distant blood of his blood, and forged a covenant...so long as his descendants would remain loyal protectors of his beloved Earth, so *he would grant them powers far beyond any held by any metahuman ever -- powers gleaned from the very edge of time and space*...and administered by the Superman Prime from his new fortress of Solitude deep within the hydrogen furnace of the system's own yellow Sun! and so he remains there to this very day...alone...waiting..."

Oh ya, and lets not forget that Superman Prime has in his possesion the last ring of the Green Lantern. With the ring he casually waved his hand and snuffed out a Supernova. This didnt even phase Superman Prime even though Kyle Rayner, and experienced Green Lantern, almost died containing the Supernove for seconds.


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## Ippy (Apr 4, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Oh ya, and lets not forget that Superman Prime has in his possesion the last ring of the Green Lantern. With the ring he casually waved his hand and snuffed out a Supernova. This didnt even phase Superman Prime even though Kyle Rayner, and experienced Green Lantern, almost died containing the Supernove for seconds.


Thanks for clearing more of that Superman Prime business up.  A supernova is *way* more powerful than any ki attack you see in DBZ, even though they could potentially do more.  But then where would they fight?  At no time has it been said that they (DBZ guys) could breathe in space.  With or without the ring, Gogeta and Vegetto would get sodomized.


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## Pinkaugust (Apr 4, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> no, i dont think they would, if iwas normal superman, and we are to assume gogeta is strong ( not some watered down piece of crap) i mean strong enough to make buu look like shit. Then they would win.
> 
> But this is superman prime, i dont think they will win, i beleive superman prime is near cosmic level, or am i overhyping him?


I don't think it matters if you are overhyping him.. When Vegeto was fighting Buu, who was VERY powered up, Vegeto didn't even use a tenth of his real potential.. 
I actually think that Goku and Vegeta fused together are beyond Cosmic level Marvel dudes..


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## Id (Apr 4, 2006)

Pinkaugust said:
			
		

> I don't think it matters if you are overhyping him.. When Vegeto was fighting Buu, who was VERY powered up, Vegeto didn't even use a tenth of his real potential..
> I actually think that Goku and Vegeta fused together are beyond Cosmic level Marvel dudes..


Thinking he is beyond Cosmic, is different then showing he is beyond Cosmic.

But this way of thinking is a normal for DbzTardz. (which is why they never come thru and show actual feats, and scans to back up their claims.)


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## Ippy (Apr 5, 2006)

Pinkaugust said:
			
		

> I don't think it matters if you are overhyping him.. When Vegeto was fighting Buu, who was VERY powered up, Vegeto didn't even use a tenth of his real potential..
> I actually think that Goku and Vegeta fused together are beyond Cosmic level Marvel dudes..


How wold you know that he's only using a tenth of his power?  You are just speculating...


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## Ippy (Apr 5, 2006)

ShadowReplication1480 said:
			
		

> Eyeshield21-98-100.zip
> 
> That's the bio done on Superman Prime by one of the members of the forum. Read his abilities in the fourth post and what powers he gives to his offspring as a gift.
> 
> Supes Prime is basically a god.


I have only one real problem with the info that was given.  It listed Superman M's abilities more than Prime's.  For the most part, most of the abilities that were listed for him...


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> Kal-El at his height as Superman in the twentieth and twenty first centuries was one of the most powerful of the founding superheroes. Like all Kryptonians exposed to a yellow sun his cells became living solar batteries absorbing solar energy and literally supercharging every natural physical ability he possessed. He possessed vast super strength, was nigh invulnerable to anything short of a nuclear blast and possessed the ability to fly by shear effort of will. This Kryptonian powers also granted him numerous sensory abilities including perception of the vast majority of the EM spectrum, telescopic vision and super hearing. At will he could also expel stored solar energy out of his eyes as a form of "heat ray". His only vulnerabilities were the radioactive mineral Kryptonite and a susceptibility to magical influence.


Most of this I, and I'm sure others, already knew Superman could do all of that.  What they said about Superman and his Prime powers:


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> It is not recorded what happened to Superman Prime during his long exile from Earth, but *it is believed that he learned much about himself and his powers.* While the powers of the Superman Dynasty evolved over the years Superman Prime did not gain the extra mental powers or sensory abilities obtained by the union with the Fifth Dimension. *Upon his return it became evident that he had certainly changed becoming almost god like in terms of power. *There is evidence for this in his resurrection of Lois Lane (with help from Lzyxm Ltpkz) and his covenant with the Superman Dynasty. The Superman Prime that appeared out of the sun in the year 85,271 is certainly the post powerful member of the Superman Dynasty ever seen and it is quite conceivable that *he is now a New God* despite his returned humanity. It should be also noted that *Superman Prime is currently in possession of the last of the Green Lantern power rings.*


Basically, they said that he is a god a few times and that he has a Green Lantern ring.  The reason that I agreed with Id about him putting Vegetto and Gogeta in their place is because he somehow manages to give Superman M, and the other Supermen, all of these abilities...


			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> He is capable to travelling faster than the speed of light (but only under the influence of the Super-Sun), he is also strong enough to punch through the time barrier, leap between planets and invulnerable to practically everything. Along with the traditional Kryptonian senses ten new abilities were added to the Dynasty by the marriage of a Superman to Queen Gzntplzk of the Fifth Dimension. These new abilities include techno-rapport (the ability to control computers), limited control of magnetism, genesis level intellect, super-ESP (a form of super-hypnosis), no longer as susceptible to magic, the ability to think billions of different lines of thought at the same time, etc. However all these abilities are dependent on the covenant with Supermen Prime, they are his gifts to give or revoke at will.


...and still retains his own powers.

But I would still like to know what Prime himself can do, beyond the obvious Superman powers.  Can he alter reality?  Is he _totally_ invulnerable, beyond just nukes?  When he can, "punch through the time barrier," does that mean he could go into the past, or more importantly, _control_ what part of the past he goes to and return when needed?


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## Viciousness (Apr 5, 2006)

Supes is a powerhouse no doubt but we hardly know what Gogeta or Veggeto are capable of as one was around for something like 5 chapters and the other an episode. Vegetto did mess up one of the most powerful beings in the universe while in the form of a candy corn. Could he move a planet? hard to say.

But to question some of the supes feats, how far was Superman from the blackhole when he escaped it moving at under light speed? Is it even possible to escape a blckhole if you move at less than light speed, when its dark in the first place because the force of gravity is so strong it pulls everything in moving at the speed of light? Also how far was that planet he moved  from the orbit of the nearest star, so how much pull was he fighting against?
I know in one of these threads you posted a picture of supes pulling a city through space and struggling, but thought it was a planet.
Doesnt matter a whole lot since theres tons of Superman pictures and its not like anyone can show too much specific about the characters he's stacked up against. Only people will assume Supes Prime is more than a match for them even if they do a double fusion, or that theyre so powerful that hed be no match.


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## Id (Apr 7, 2006)

Bumped becuse Phenomenol lame ass can use the search button.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 7, 2006)

Well, Super Vegetto could kill Superman regular easily...but Superman Prime, i dont know...all three have universe killing powers, its just can superman prime stand up to two of them at the same time, but Prime did bust into DC Heaven...so as much as i hate to say, Prime could beat these two...now a Vegitto training for 15,000 years would totally fucking OWN Prime...but that isnt real...FLASH PRIME >>>>> ALL THREE


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## Etude (Apr 7, 2006)

I don't really know all that much about Superman Prime but if what you say, regarding his abilities, is true, than he could probably take out everyone in DBZ by himself.


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## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

So no one knows?  Beyond the fact that he supposedly is a god and that he gives Superman M a s***load of powers, there is no other info?  If that is the case, I gotta say that Vegetto and Gogeta would tie with him.  The only reason that I ever said that Prime would win was because he lets other Supermen borrow his powers, and supposedly still keeps his own.  

But the only powers that was listed that I could see would defeat the two fusions would be the "punch through the time barrier" and "the ability to think billions of different lines of thought at the same time."  The former should be obvious, but the latter because with that kind of thinking capability he should be able to predict almost every attack that the two should come up with.  But after thinking it over, I realized that this is still a fight and that there are two many variables.  Until I have more info, especially the "time barrier" one, I can't say one way or the other.

I already did google and yahoo searches and found only what everyone on here told me, that Prime's uber.....


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 8, 2006)

this is just a fucking inconsequential match, i mean shit...GOku and Vegeta both have only trained for about 30 years at the end of GT to be Gogeta at SSJ4...now, Prime has sunbathed(his best way of gaining strength) for 15,000 years...this match was over before it began, just because of the time difference...if gogeta and vegetto could train for 15k years, and be able to train at their maximum capacity for those 15k years, the duo would undoubtabely win...its just people hate that DBZ is so strong, and thats why they ALWAYS want to find things that can beat it...although Flash Prime pwns em all anyway, so Vegetto is only fucked against him...how Supes Prime would get his ass suffed by Flash Prime...


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> So no one knows?  Beyond the fact that he supposedly is a god and that he gives Superman M a s***load of powers, there is no other info?  If that is the case, I gotta say that Vegetto and Gogeta would tie with him.  The only reason that I ever said that Prime would win was because he lets other Supermen borrow his powers, and supposedly still keeps his own.
> 
> But the only powers that was listed that I could see would defeat the two fusions would be the "punch through the time barrier" and "the ability to think billions of different lines of thought at the same time."  The former should be obvious, but the latter because with that kind of thinking capability he should be able to predict almost every attack that the two should come up with.  But after thinking it over, I realized that this is still a fight and that there are two many variables.  Until I have more info, especially the "time barrier" one, I can't say one way or the other.
> 
> I already did google and yahoo searches and found only what everyone on here told me, that Prime's uber.....



Well all the scans I posted are current superman, When he is supercharged by the sun (Say 15,000 years) all his powers ware drastically raised. 

And I posted the Superman feats, to let everyone know that Current Superman is more than enough for either Vegito or Gogeta (and Im not done posting)

Let alone Prime.

One thing that is being overlooked is that Prime has a GL ring. And with it he can do just about what ever he wants.

That should give you an idea of just how strong superman  prime is.

The manga cult is currently down, if not I would have asked if anyone can upload appearances of superman prime, to help a lil.


----------



## The Unknown Sensai (Apr 8, 2006)

DBZ characters would own any form of Superman I should no I own Budokai Tenkaiichi(SSJ4 Gogeta owns all)


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 8, 2006)

The Unknown Sensai said:
			
		

> DBZ characters would own any form of Superman I should no I own Budokai Tenkaiichi(SSJ4 Gogeta owns all)



You really haven't read any part of this thread, have you...


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> You really haven't read any part of this thread, have you...


Agreed.  And he spelled "sen*sei*" wrong.  Technically, "sen*sai*" either means trimming, war damage, delicate, or............incompetence.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well all the scans I posted are current superman, When he is supercharged by the sun (Say 15,000 years) all his powers ware drastically raised.
> 
> And I posted the Superman feats, to let everyone know that Current Superman is more than enough for either Vegito or Gogeta (and Im not done posting)
> 
> ...



current base supes couldnt even contend with vegetto...


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> current base supes couldnt even contend with vegetto...



I have already proved Base Superman >>Vegito
Strength
Speed
Durability


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

To be honest I know jack shit about Green Lantern also.  Is the ring _that_ powerful?


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> To be honest I know jack shit about Green Lantern also.  Is the ring _that_ powerful?




My friend the dont call the GL ring the most powerfull waepon in the univese for nothing.

I mean you tell me....it grants the user what ever he/she wishes.


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

^That would do it...  I will now go back to my original stance of Prime sodomizing Vegetto and Gogeta prison style.....


----------



## Etude (Apr 8, 2006)

???? I thought the GL ring just made funny shapes and shoots green lasers. Like it could turn into a giant hammer or claw. Also, isn't the GL Ring limited by the user's abilities.  And can't anything yellow destroy it?

Can you tell I'm not a big GL Fan?


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

^Hmmm.  Anyone care to take this?  Id perhaps...


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

Damn it!  google Green Lanterns.
And find out for your self.


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

> Kyle Rayner's ring can affect both wooden and yellow objects, but his mind has proven to be susceptible to forms of external control (such as hallucinogens, psychic attacks, and other phenomena that disrupt his thought processes).


^Sorry!!!  Googling info almost never gets me anything meaningful, so I usually don't bother.  I got this from Wikipedia.

Neither Gogeta or Vegetto can use mental attacks, so they are screwed.


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> ^Sorry!!!  Googling info almost never gets me anything meaningful, so I usually don't bother.  I got this from Wikipedia.
> 
> Neither Gogeta or Vegetto can use mental attacks, so they are screwed.



You used wikipedia.......here is a reliable source.

This is the unofical source (they do a good job in keeping info thou)
Green Latern in general
Link removed
Look for the individual characters.
Link removed


And here is the offical site
Link removed
Green Lantern file
Link removed


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

Thanks........Muhahahahahahaha!  I can now join the **** Forums... Bohahahahahahahahah!!!!!!


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> Thanks........Muhahahahahahaha!  I can now join the Forums... Bohahahahahahahahah!!!!!!




First Rule about  the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



its gone


is you dont talk about the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



its gone



Second Rule about the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



its gone


 is you dont talk about the 
*Spoiler*: __ 



you will never know muhahahahaha


----------



## Ippy (Apr 8, 2006)

^Noted....If I had the ability, I would edit your post.  I'm pretty sure you were joking though, since anyone that looked through their own control panel would notice


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> ^Noted....If I had the ability, I would edit your post.  I'm pretty sure you were joking though, since anyone that looked through their own control panel would notice




What post?


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

kratos lord of war will smite all in his path


----------



## Etude (Apr 8, 2006)

Taken from your link Id...

"The energy could not affect wood, or protect him from it."

So GL can be beat by a piece of wood with a nail on the end? 

Also, I remember seeing a picture where a GL used some kind of green light that drained the energy of whoever it hit.

Anyway...Superman has so much power already, I would think using a Green Lantern Ring would be kinda redundant.


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

Etude said:
			
		

> Taken from your link Id...
> 
> "The energy could not affect wood, or protect him from it."
> 
> ...



Im not sure if the wood weakenes is still in play. But the yellow weakness does not effect High level GL's, especially if Prime is a Yellow color!


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

prime is gold not yellow allways gold


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> prime is gold not yellow allways gold




Im color blind


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA


----------



## Bullet (Apr 8, 2006)

Yeah the yellow weakness doesn't work against experince GL's.


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Yeah the yellow weakness doesn't work against experince GL's.




What about the wood thing? thats dosnt work as well right? (Im kinda sure it dosnt)


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

That would be ironic if one of the most powerfull people in the universe could get his ass kicked by a 2 by 4 with a nail at the end


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Im not sure if the wood weakenes is still in play. But the yellow weakness does not effect High level GL's, especially if Prime is a Yellow color!



The wood weakness only ever applied to Alan Scott not real Green Lanterns from the GLC. Yellow was their weekness but now with enough will power and training that weakness can be over come. Also, I _believe_ Scott's wood weakness is gone aswell although Im not positive on that one.


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

WOOD with nail> GLC


----------



## Id (Apr 8, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> The wood weakness only ever applied to Alan Scott not real Green Lanterns from the GLC. Yellow was their weekness but now with enough will power and training that weakness can be over come. Also, I _believe_ Scott's wood weakness is gone aswell although Im not positive on that one.




I thought that only applied to the first GL. Thanks for clearing that up


----------



## Countach (Apr 8, 2006)

wasent this thread about vegetto or something like that?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> I have already proved Base Superman >>Vegito
> Strength
> Speed
> Durability



no you havent...explain to me how Supes is faster than instantaneous movement?

strength? Vegetto would totally own him...

and durability, i doubt it could sustain Vegettos punch, much less Super Vegetto...

listen, Prime would own him...Base Superman would be paste...


----------



## konflikti (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> no you havent...explain to me how Supes is faster than instantaneous movement?


Because it isn't instant movement, it's Instant Translocation, which isn't movement at all.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

as long as he's getting behind supes, then hes faster... instant translocation is still instant movement... he is going from Point a to point b instantly...


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> strength? Vegetto would totally own him...
> 
> and durability, i doubt it could sustain Vegettos punch, much less Super Vegetto...



Please show me one, just one, feat of strength performed by someone in DBZ that is even close to being compareable to even the smallest of Superman feats and I will take you seriously about the strength thing.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> as long as he's getting behind supes, then hes faster... instant translocation is still instant movement... he is going from Point a to point b instantly...



Doing Instant Transmission takes time. Superman can consistently maintain a incredibly fast speed


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> no you havent...explain to me how Supes is faster than instantaneous movement?
> 
> strength? Vegetto would totally own him...
> 
> ...



Dude seriously their is no doubt base Superman is stronger the Vegito.

He pushed earth.
He crushed a moon.
He moves beyond the speed of light
He takes head on collision attacks, that are said to be 100 x megaton nuclear blast.
He hits so hard, time barriers are broken.

Goku 
Had trouble lifting a building ( Earth>Moon>City>Bulding)
At best speed feat shown was Gotenks circling earth Several times in 29 min (or something like that)
And the one time Goku does take an attack head on, it happen to be a planet destroying attack. In which he died from.

You hardly ever see any Dbz characters take on a planet destroying attack ever.

So I have already proved that Superman is at least superior in these areas.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Dude seriously their is no doubt base Superman is stronger the Vegito.
> 
> He pushed earth.
> He crushed a moon.
> ...



ok, you must be a dumbass...ummm Vegetto punched Buus planet destroying ki away with his hand, and Gogeta KICKED Omega Shenron's planet destroying blast away with his foot...


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ok, you must be a dumbass...ummm Vegetto punched Buus planet destroying ki away with his hand, and Gogeta KICKED Omega Shenron's planet destroying blast away with his foot...



Taking a blast and deflecting a blast are two different things. If Vegetto let Buu's planet destroying blast blow up and he still survived the explosion, THAT would be taking the blast. All he did was deflect it else where.

Superman takes planet destroying blasts full forces and survives with a small ringing in his ear


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

i say, deflecteing a planet destroying blast>>>getting hit by it...


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i say, deflecteing a planet destroying blast>>>getting hit by it...



Not when you are trying to measure a characters durability which is what Id was talking about I believe.


----------



## Ippy (Apr 9, 2006)

Scorpio's got a point, we have naver seen a DBZ guy take a blast that the enemy said was strong enough to destroy a planet.  If that has happened please elaborate.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

listen, if a character is strong enough to PUNCH away a planet destroying attack, then he could probably take said attack...supes is just to shitty to be able to deflect it...


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 9, 2006)

I. P. Standing said:
			
		

> Scorpio's got a point, we have naver seen a DBZ guy take a blast that the enemy said was strong enough to destroy a planet.  If that has happened please elaborate.



Actually we have seen Goku take a blast that size and he died in the process....(against cell when he self destructed).



			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> listen, if a character is strong enough to PUNCH away a planet destroying attack, then he could probably take said attack...supes is just to shitty to be able to deflect it...



Your not getting it, the ball never exploded. It didnt release its stored up energy.

Take this scenario:

Super Hero #1 is flying around New York city when suddenly a nuclear missle comes flying in and is going to hit smack center in Central Park and kill millions. So Super Hero #1 flys up and punches the missle upwards, deflecting the missle upwards where it continues to fly until it detonates in the upper atmosphere minimizing the damage.

Super Hero #2 is in the same situation. Only in fear that punching the missle might set it off over the city, he grabs the missle and flys with it up in the air over a none populated area. Although, once he gets high enough the missle goes off in his hands and he is hit with a point blank nuclear explosion. He survives.

Simply from those two senarios, which characters is more durable?????


----------



## Ippy (Apr 9, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Actually we have seen Goku take a blast that size and he died in the process....(against cell when he self destructed).
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lol, I meant take a blast and lived...


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ok, you must be a dumbass...ummm Vegetto punched Buus planet destroying ki away with his hand, and Gogeta KICKED Omega Shenron's planet destroying blast away with his foot...


Um?.Im making a case and point comparing actual feats with scans to back them up.
I don?t see you making any real effort to back up your claims.




			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i say, deflecteing a planet destroying blast>>>getting hit by it...



I say surviving planet destroying attacks >>>>>>dieing from a planet destroying attack.
That?s the durability feat I posted for Superman .




			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> listen, if a character is strong enough to PUNCH away a planet destroying attack, then he could probably take said attack...supes is just to shitty to be able to deflect it...




Supes containing an island sized nuclear explosion before it affects the surrounding environment, fusing it, and then effortlessly tossing the explosion into the sun.

Note: This was also done right after exposure to kryptonite.
Link removed



By the way - here's PC Supes doing the same feat after exposure to magic.
Link removed

Then chucks it all into space at close to light speed.
Link removed


I also want to make a case and point that.
Goku almost died of heart disease.
Superman has showed resistance to both magic, kryptonite and exposure to the red sun.


----------



## Countach (Apr 9, 2006)

ID i have a queston for you, if superman was a kriptonion before he was superman, could a stonger kriptonion defeat superman if he saw and lived near a yellow sun?


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

Here is a strength feat.

Superman pushing the moon.


I doubt any Dbz character can match that strength feat. If so I want to see it.


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> ID i have a queston for you, if superman was a kriptonion before he was superman, could a stonger kriptonion defeat superman if he saw and lived near a yellow sun?



Depends how long the other kriptonion has bin exposing himself to the sun.

If another Kriptonion has bin expose to the yellow sun (or sunbathing) longer then Superman then yes.


----------



## Countach (Apr 9, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Depends how long the other kriptonion has bin exposing himself to the sun.
> 
> If another Kriptonion has bin expose to the yellow sun (or sunbathing) longer then Superman then yes.



if it was the same time as superman but the other kripton was stonger on the plant of kripton, or is superman special


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> if it was the same time as superman but the other kripton was stonger on the plant of kripton, or is superman special



If both are exposed to the Yellow sun for an equal amount of time. Then both are evenly matched.

It comes down to who wants it more.
Who is willing to push themselfs further.


----------



## Countach (Apr 9, 2006)

so past strength has nothing to due it


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> so past strength has nothing to due it




Their strength is determined by how long the are sunbathing or exposed to the sun.
As far as I know all pure breed Kriptonians are born with equal potential.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 9, 2006)

how about Roshi blowing up the fucking moon? i havent seen Superman doing that, and Roshi is NOWHERE near the strength of Vegetto...


----------



## Id (Apr 9, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> how about Roshi blowing up the fucking moon? i havent seen Superman doing that, and Roshi is NOWHERE near the strength of Vegetto...


Lex 2000 special: Superman made the trip from Earth to Saturn in well under 4 minutes. By comparison, light takes about 19 minutes to make this trip. He was pissed at the time.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

thats not blowing the moon up...thats cutting it in half...let me ask you...


Full BLast Final Kamehameha vs. Supes heat vision...who would win? if you say heat vision, i do believe you are full of shit...


----------



## Bullet (Apr 10, 2006)

> BladeofTheImmortal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## konflikti (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Full BLast Final Kamehameha vs. Supes heat vision...who would win? if you say heat vision, i do believe you are full of shit...


Dude, we have to agree with you or we are full of shit? Who the fuck do you think you are?


----------



## Green Lantern (Apr 10, 2006)

Exactly!

Blade of the Immortal- stop being ignorant. There are many posters here in the battledome who have more experience than you, are far more intelligent, and a whole sight less stubborn, and they have consistently proven every single thing you have pointed out wrong.

Stop being ignorant or leave the Outskirts Battledome


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Dude, we have to agree with you or we are full of shit? Who the fuck do you think you are?



God...thats why i know Vegetto>>>Supes...



			
				^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) said:
			
		

> Blade of the Immortal- stop being ignorant. There are many posters here in the battledome who have more experience than you, are far more intelligent, and a whole sight less stubborn, and they have consistently proven every single thing you have pointed out wrong.







You guys haven't proven shit. I mean each universe is astronomically different, who's to say that each punch Buu was trying to punch Vegetto with didnt have planet destroying power in it? Because you did not make the Manga, you cannot say that he doesnt...


----------



## Etude (Apr 10, 2006)

I'm going to assume this is normal Superman because I don't think Goku, even in SS3, could take any of his powered-up variants. The thing Goku has on Superman is that he knows Martial Arts. Therefore, the speed of his kicks and punches are probably faster than Superman, who, from what I've seen, has more of a street brawler fighting style. Superman definitely flies much faster than Goku though + he's stronger.

I don't mention heat rays or ki blasts because I'm assuming at this level of speed neither would get hit by the other's projectiles.

I'd probably give the edge to Goku because of fighting speed (not moving speed) and he has that 'dumb luck' that only manga characters have and most comic characters don't.

Oh yea, and about that comment that DBZ characters can't take as much as they can give... Goku has been repeatedly smashed into the ground and onto mountains leaving huge craters.

Edit: For some reason I thought this was just Superman vs Goku...


----------



## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

Etude said:
			
		

> I'm going to assume this is normal Superman because I don't think Goku, even in SS3, could take any of his powered-up variants. The thing Goku has on Superman is that he knows Martial Arts. Therefore, the speed of his kicks and punches are probably faster than Superman, who, from what I've seen, has more of a street brawler fighting style. Superman definitely flies much faster than Goku though + he's stronger.


Well I just want to point out that, Superman does know martial arts. Its not seen often but, it has bin stated that he is an expert in unarmed h2h combat.



			
				Etude said:
			
		

> I don't mention heat rays or ki blasts because I'm assuming at this level of speed neither would get hit by the other's projectiles.




I'd probably give the edge to Goku because of fighting speed (not moving speed) and he has that 'dumb luck' that only manga characters have and most comic characters don't..[/QUOTE]

Speed feats, well I will be posting speed feats soon. Just to show that Superman =or> Goku (Me personally I think he has greater speed overall.)

And just about all the main characters from their respective comics/mangas have the so called ?Dumb Luck? (you can also call it, PIS, CIS, Jobber Aurora, Plot Device) 



			
				Etude said:
			
		

> Oh yea, and about that comment that DBZ characters can't take as much as they can give... Goku has been repeatedly smashed into the ground and onto mountains leaving huge craters.
> 
> Edit: For some reason I thought this was just Superman vs Goku...



That?s cool, many characters that are below Superman or Goku?s level get smashed thru mountains or leave craters.

Superman has bin smashed half across the galaxy going right thru the planet.


----------



## konflikti (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> You guys haven't proven shit. I mean each universe is astronomically different, who's to say that each punch Buu was trying to punch Vegetto with didnt have planet destroying power in it? Because you did not make the Manga, you cannot say that he doesnt...


Unless... You use *LOGIC*. You can go around and claim all the shit you want, but unless you can back it up it is worth nothing.

"Whose to say Superman hasn't always held back and is actually bazillion times stronger for no apparent reason? You didn't write the comic so you have no say."


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

true, so we both lose...good job...and i have been using LOGIC dumbass, its you who isnt...

through logic, i have come to the conclusion that since Master Roshi can blow up something as big as the moon, with a powerlevel of 100...Vegetto(not even Super Vegetto) who is at least 10,000 times stronger could easily blow up a galaxy if he really really wanted to.


----------



## acritarch (Apr 10, 2006)

On the bright side, Blade's not as bad as Phenominal...

I still go with my position earlier in the thread of regular Supes winning rather handily. Better speed, durability, smarts, experience, strength, etc.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> true, so we both lose...good job...and i have been using LOGIC dumbass, its you who isnt...
> 
> through logic, i have come to the conclusion that since Master Roshi can blow up something as big as the moon, with a powerlevel of 100...Vegetto(not even Super Vegetto) who is at least 10,000 times stronger could easily blow up a galaxy if he really really wanted to.



Dude, maybe you need to check your "logic" again. By my calculations (which anyone is welcome to check, I did these really fast so I might have messed up somewhere) the volume of the moon is 2.20 x 10^10 km^3. The volume of the milkyway galaxy is 1.62 x 10^*52* km^3 (at a very low estimate and also considering the eplosion is relatively flat and not sphereical which it almost certainly would be, that puts the volume waaaaaay higher). That makes the galaxy over 7.0 x 10^41 times bigger then the moon. Thats 7 followed by 41 zeros. To give you a better idea of just how big that is here in the number written out.

700,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

That would mean Vegito would have to be 7.0 x 10^41 times more powerful then Roshi to blow up the galaxy, not 10,000 times or anything close to that. Heck, even the solar system is about 10^15 times bigger then the moon, thats 1,000,000,000,000,000. Not a billion times bigger, not a trillion times bigger, but a quadrillion times bigger and again that is a very small estimate for an explosion scenario, it would actually have to be much larger then that.

Perhaps you need to rethink your logic?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

well, hes definitely more than 10,000...my bad, that would only bring his power level to 1,000,000 and Freiza's Secind form had 1,000,000 power level...so, Vegetto could at least destroy the Solar System...

how can i rething logic?


----------



## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, hes definitely more than 10,000...my bad, that would only bring his power level to 1,000,000 and Freiza's Secind form had 1,000,000 power level...so, Vegetto could at least destroy the Solar System...
> 
> how can i rething logic?



I don?t care what power level they are. When Goku got hit by a planet destroying attack he died. Simple as that.

It doesn?t matter what power level he is, Goku can not take blast as hot as the sun.

And regardless of what power level Goku is, his speed feats have not yet matched base Superman.


Measuring with power level?s is are the same as arguing with assumptions. Arguing with actual feats, are arguing with facts.

You some logic.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 10, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> I don?t care what power level they are. When Goku got hit by a planet destroying attack he died. Simple as that.
> 
> It doesn?t matter what power level he is, Goku can not take blast as hot as the sun.
> 
> ...




Yes but the attack blue up a planet, but how much more would it have taken out, im pretty sure if that went of on earth, more than just earth would have been destroyed.

Anyway, im want to limit my self from this thread, and try and find teen titans 30-33. Well here is a change, emule???


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

you some logic?

listen, just because Supes can do soemthing one day, doesnt mean he has that ability all the time, you have to apply the incosistencies of comics, as you have with DBZ, but you just want to be right so much, you use his best things, that he doesnt do except once in a while...how do you explain him moving a planet one day and then getting hit by someone goku would fuck up and he goes flying through 20 buildings? you cant...the incosistencies are just the same as in Supes comics as DBZ...

you use some logic...


----------



## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> you some logic?
> 
> listen, just because Supes can do soemthing one day, doesnt mean he has that ability all the time, you have to apply the incosistencies of comics, as you have with DBZ, but you just want to be right so much, you use his best things, that he doesnt do except once in a while...how do you explain him moving a planet one day and then getting hit by someone goku would fuck up and he goes flying through 20 buildings? you cant...the incosistencies are just the same as in Supes comics as DBZ...
> 
> you use some logic...



Superman has taken planet destroying attack  in several times. If anything DBZ if full of inconsistancys for one I had no idea that in DBZ earth had two moons. But seeing as how Roshi blew up one, and Piccalo blew up another one, I guess they it did.


----------



## Gambitz (Apr 10, 2006)

> Superman has taken planet destroying attack in several times. If anything DBZ if full of inconsistancys for one I had no idea that in DBZ earth had two moons. But seeing as how Roshi blew up one, and Piccalo blew up another one, I guess they it did.


dont forget about friza destroying namek with one blast


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> you some logic?
> 
> listen, just because Supes can do soemthing one day, doesnt mean he has that ability all the time, you have to apply the incosistencies of comics, as you have with DBZ, but you just want to be right so much, you use his best things, that he doesnt do except once in a while...how do you explain him moving a planet one day and then getting hit by someone goku would fuck up and he goes flying through 20 buildings? you cant...the incosistencies are just the same as in Supes comics as DBZ...
> 
> you use some logic...



You, sir, are a moron.

Superman is inconsistant? DBZ is FAR more inconsistant with power. Roshi can destroy the moon? Vegeta can destroy the planet during the Saiya-jin saga? That's damn inconsistant with the powerlevels that we've seen necessary to destroy a planet.

The Freiza saga, especially, is rife with power inconsistancies, especially when you get to Piccolo, Vegeta's power-up (which most people say wasn't close the 1,000,000 it'd take to take on Freiza in the form he was in) among other thing. After that, it just gets worse and worse in the form of power-ups and inconsistancies.

Okay, pop-quiz, hotshot:

Who has hit him through 20 buildings who Goku could just school? Lobo? Doubtful. Darkseid? No way.

Seriously, who has who hasn't had either been massively powered-up or massively powerful in the first place? Superman has taken on more omnipotent powers than Vegetto could ever hope to. Buu isn't SHIT compared to people like the Spectre, Imperix, Darkseid (Yes, Omega Effect would erase him out of _existance_), among others.

So please, don't try preaching logic when you're talking about friggin DBZ.


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

drunken master said:
			
		

> dont forget about friza destroying namek with one blast


Freeza in his first form could destroyed planet Sajin problem with his death ball. But Frezza in his 4 th from could not blow up the planet just as quick as he did with the Sajin planet.

And in 4 th form his is suppose to be several times stronger.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, hes definitely more than 10,000...my bad, that would only bring his power level to 1,000,000 and Freiza's Secind form had 1,000,000 power level...so, Vegetto could at least destroy the Solar System...



and how do you get that he can destroy a solar system atleast? thats right, you are pulling it out of your ass. Where are you getting this from? The fact that Roshi blew up the moon? Unless Vegitto is over 1.0x10^17 times stronger then Roshi *atleast* then no. Do you have any evidense that this is the case?

Please, walk me through your oh so logical conclusion that Vegitto can blow up the solar system. Enlighten me.


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## Toffeeman (Apr 10, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Freeza in his first form could destroyed planet Sajin problem with his death ball. But Frezza in his 4 th from could not blow up the planet just as quick as he did with the Sajin planet.
> 
> And in 4 th form his is suppose to be several times stronger.


He held back too much power, which he stated himself. Goku also theorised that, subconciously, he "couldn't bring himself to do it".

Besides, Namek was several times larger than Planet Plant anyway..


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## Gunners (Apr 10, 2006)

Yo man, stop being jerks and quit gang banging the guy.

Id, the part about the moon being their twice, i beleive it was brought back by kami, not to sure, about 70% sure.

Freiza not destroying the planet, he probably held back, and i think partially he didnt want to end goku that way, he probably thought he could win.




> So please, don't try preaching logic when you're talking about friggin DBZ.



Well technically, with dbz you have to use logic as you are it is somewhat hard to find feats which match the characters true levels.

With dc and marvel logic is not needed, they will state how fast a character moves, how much x character can life, and why.


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

T0FFe3m@n said:
			
		

> He held back too much power, which he stated himself. Goku also theorised that, subconciously, he "couldn't bring himself to do it".
> 
> Besides, Namek was several times larger than Planet Plant anyway..


Sure 

Roshi who?s power level was around the hundred?s blew up a moon

Picallo who?s power level was around the thousands blew up a moon as well.

Vegita who?s power level was around the tenths of thousands claims he could blow up earth with his Galaict Gun

Frezza who power level was around the hundred thousands blew up  a planet.

But Frezza who power level beyond millions (if I?m corrected in his second form he claims to be 1 million). Could not easily blow up planet Namick.

Yeah ok.


Here are Superman so called  inconsistent durability feat.

In Superman Man of Steel #66, he once again acted as an effective shield, protecting cities around the world by blocking numerous "atom-smashing" force beams with his body. At one point he had 6 such beams trained on him simultaneously. 

In Adventures of Superman #581, Superman allowed Adversary, a powerful magical foe, to hit him as hard as he could, without retaliation. Superman was literally punched halfway across the planet- from Metropolis, he literally landed in China- without any injury or loss of consciousness 

But forget about being punched across the planet to China, how about through the planet to China? In Superman #181, Superman and Bizarro (his magically-created, brain damaged, "imperfect" duplicate) switched bodies. Superman (in Bizarro's body) punched Bizarro (in Superman's body) completely through the Earth and out the other end. Bizarro (in Superman's body) was slammed in through the ground in Metropolis and came out two panels later in China. He was shown ripping straight through the Earth?s crust, mantle, and core, and coming out on the other side of the planet. Superman's body was fully conscious and completely unharmed by the blow (Bizarro was smiling as usual). 

In Man of Tomorrow #13, Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blast from Orion's Astro-Harness that blasted him across the planet from the North Pole to India. 

Action Comics # 762: Superman harmlessly shrugged off a blow from the magical demon Etrigan. The blow actually knocked Superman from Earth's surface all the way to the moon (239,000 miles), a distance that is about 10 times the diameter of the Earth. Superman was virtually unfazed. In this issue he also shrugged off magical demon-fire (which he did previously in Action #589), and his super-lungs harmlessly inhaled the demon's magical gases. 

In Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey, Superman survived, at ground zero, a blast equal to "a million nuclear bombs" (according to the energy being Waverider). The explosion was caused by the destruction of the power generator for the entire planet of Calaton; the energy was drawn from the planetary core. Superman did not suffer any physical damage, but was momentarily rendered inert, and stated that he felt concussed. He then got up and boxed a little more with Doomsday, who also survived the blast. 

In Adventures of Superman #478, as part of the Time and Time Again storyline, Superman survived- without so much as batting an eye- the nuclear destruction of the entire moon in the year 2995. The moon had been lined with sufficient nuclear devices to disintegrate it in one shot. When the moon was obliterated, Superman was actually within the moon (structures had been built beneath the surface of the moon). He did not suffer any harm and did not lose consciousness. 


Superman #13: Flew around the equator in a matter of seconds, indicating a speed of well over 1,000,000 mph, or roughly 1350 times the speed of sound

More On Kal-El's Durability.Thanks to Jak Sacul 

Adventures of Superman #477: survives being at ground zero of an imploding sun-eater, followed by a plummet to Earth. KO'd; otherwise OK afterwards. 

Adventures of Superman #478: survives the nuclear obliteration of the Earth's moon )in the 31st century, IIRC) without batting an eye. 

Adventures #480: takes a dive into the outer layers of a red sun. 

Man of Steel #64, Action Comics #782: goes into the core of a yellow sun. 

Action Comics #696: takes a trip through a cosmic wormhole. 

Hunter/Prey #3: weathers ground zero of the supposed "million nukes" blast on Calaton. 

JLA/JSA Virtue/Vice: Goes through a black hole. Not sure if Sentinel protected him or not - it's not clear from the story. 

Superman #9: weathers ground zero of a 40 megaton nuke followed by a fall to Earth from outer space. KO'd for a half hour, OK afterwards. 

Superman for All Seasons #1 and Trinity #1: impressively endures ground zero nukes without loss of consciousness or injury. 

Superman/Fantastic Four: the disputed "adamantium cutting lasers" event. 

JLA: Created Equal #2: goes through a black hole (out of continuity). 

Adventures of Superman #595: impressively resists Darkseid's Omega Beams. 

Superman #181: Takes a punch from the magically created Bizarro creature which slams him clear through the Earth, in the ground through Metropolis, through the curst mantle and core and out through China. No injury or loss of consciousness. Smiles afterwards. 

Man of Steel #127: takes an island-destroying nuke while sitting in Kryptonite-laced sand. No injury or loss of consciousness. 

War of the Gods #4: blocks a magical beam capable of destroying an island (Paradise Island). Fails to completely mitigate the blast's effect - one person dies. Apparently briefly KO'd or at least in great pain as a result; otherwise OK at issue's end. 

Adventures #581: takes a punch from a magical being that knocks him clear from Metropolis to China. No injury or loss of consciousness. Says "ouch". 

Action #762: takes a punch from Etrigan the Demon that sends him from Metropolis to the Moon. No injury or loss of consciousness. Says "unff." 

Trial of Superman (don't know the issues): survives various planet-powered particle beams from the Cyborg, one of which was said by the Cyborg to be capable of levelling a city. ("Believe me, I'd know" spake the Cyborg.)


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 10, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Well technically, with dbz you have to use logic as you are it is somewhat hard to find feats which match the characters true levels.



I agree, many times its not possible to show a feat to prove something so sound logic to back it up is the next best thing. I am perfectly fine with people useing logic to back up their arguments.

However, Im not seeing any sound logic here. What Im seeing is "Roshi blew up the moon. Vegitto >> Roshi. Therefore Vegitto could blow up the solar system".

Where is the logic in that?


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## Gambitz (Apr 10, 2006)

wow Id u know like everything about superman


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## Gunners (Apr 10, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> I agree, many times its not possible to show a feat to prove something so sound logic to back it up is the next best thing. I am perfectly fine with people useing logic to back up their arguments.
> 
> However, Im not seeing any sound logic here. What Im seeing is "Roshi blew up the moon. Vegitto >> Roshi. Therefore Vegitto could blow up the solar system".
> 
> Where is the logic in that?




I agree with you on that note, seeing as a galaxy is much stronger.

And on the same note if a guy is weaker than me and can break chip wood, i most certainly could break steal.

Anyway, i'm not going to comment on who would win, i don't really want to, and i don't really know. When i go a while without reading dc i feel as if goku would win, when i start reading more and more it sways my opinion.

Like now. Superboy prime.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 10, 2006)

Also, about the Kamehameha vs Heat Vision thing awhile back. Please note, this is Superman Prime we are talking about in this thread. Superman's heat vision is an outward expulsion of the stored up solar energy in his body. Superman Prime has been sitting in the middle of the Sun for 15,000 years soaking up solar energy. As for his carrying capacity for solar energy, Superman once absorbed the energy of the Mageddon which was said to be able to destroy half the galaxy atleast.


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## Toffeeman (Apr 10, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Sure
> 
> Roshi who?s power level was around the hundred?s blew up a moon
> 
> ...


Dude... im only repeating what was stated in the manga..


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

ive been talking about Base supes for a while now...i know that Prime would rape both of them, but base supes would be getting the raping...

ill let some posts form antoher forum i found do some more talking...



> It's not faster than light. I notice none of the Z Fighters moving back in time. They meant "Faster than the human eye can see" and "Fast enough to dodge light speed projectiles." Perhaps truly far in the series they can move at light speed. Maybe.
> 
> I think Goku has at least 90% of the strength of Supes, a power boosting ability (Kaioken), ki barriers, and energy blasts that humiliate Supes' best shots. Goku takes this one.
> 
> ...





> I think you have to compare apples to apples here. Superman can get thrown into a mountain and be ok. Superman can get throw into a mountain by Majin Buu and not be ok. You have to remember who the opponent is. People like Goku routinely fight opponents more powerful than they are. Think less about Superman being thrown here or there and more about Superman fightin Zod. Zod broke his jaw in one hit. Just one. More recently, Superman fought another Zod and was completely laid out. Superman vs. Zod better typifies the average fight for Goku, and Goku has taken a lot more damage and not been anywhere close to laid out so quickly.
> 
> When you put things in perspective, Superman isn't really any more durable than Goku.
> 
> In terms of speed, it's been often remarked that the Z fighters fight so fast that their fights are invisible to human sight. In fact, child Krillin and Master Roshi fought so fast that people couldn't see their techniques. they had to reenact the whole fight in slow motion just to show the audience everything. CHILD. KRILLIN. Multiply that speed by 1000 to get adult Krillin. Multiply THAT by 1000 to get Goku. Multiply THAT by 10000 to get SSJ3 Goku.



Inconsistencies in abilities...how about Desperado bashing Supes and Captain Marvels heads in, and laying them both out in the comic JLA/JSA Virtue and Vice?


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

Action comics #775: Superman fought and defeated Elite. Elite tore one of Neptune's moons in half, and had enough punching power according to John Henry Iron's (a Technological genius) readings, to "ignite a star". One punch from Superman or a Heat Vision blast whould end the fight agianst any body in DBZ/GT


Superman #167: His power waning under a red sun, Superman still summoned enough heat vision to successfully power Jor-El's planet-moving ion engines. The planet in this case had a mass 16 times that of Earth's. 

Soul Search: Fighting alone in Hell (literally), Superman single-handedly defeated Blaze, a death goddess, in her own realm. This had never been accomplished before by anyone; Blaze has magical control over the very reality of her realm. The attacks that Superman fought off included magical transmutation into a demon, which he shook off through sheer willpower ; magical energy blasts from Blaze ; a magical spell that encased him in stone, which he subsequently shattered; and immersion in the lava lakes of this magical dimension.

PC supes sneezed a solar system out of existence

PC Supes sneeses = the entire cast of dbz characters dead.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

i dont give a shit about all of that, Desperado with a punch laid him out...did that punch have the capacity to destroy a star? if it did, then so could Buu's...you still havent proven a damn thing...supes inconsistencies are just as much as DBZs...

here's an inconsistency right in the same issue...have fun proving this wrong(you could say that was wonder woman doing the punching, so i guess that would mean wonder woman's punch=supernova blast...which would be retarded)...



he got PUNCHED, and once i might add...and his lip got bloodied...



then he goes on to say he can survive such pressure...so why would a measily little punch hurt him so much to cause him to bleed?

but you are right, obviously these must be fake scans because it goes against yours...i love how you dont take into consideration Supes inconsistencies yet rag on DBZ's...just goes to show that you are only giving evidence that supports your views, and anything that goes against it, doesnt count...

THAT WOULD MAKE YOU LIKE ME...so we both suck...get over it loser...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

> It's not faster than light. I notice none of the Z Fighters moving back in time. They meant "Faster than the human eye can see" and "Fast enough to dodge light speed projectiles." Perhaps truly far in the series they can move at light speed. Maybe.





> I think Goku has at least 90% of the strength of Supes, a power boosting ability (Kaioken), ki barriers, and energy blasts that humiliate Supes' best shots. Goku takes this one.



...? Goku can _destroy_ a planet with a Ki blast, yes (Though that's pretty much useless as he can't survive in space). But he cannot _move_ one with physical strength. Superman _can_. When it comes to strength, Superman wins almost without a doubt. Goku can NOT take his punchs for long.

On energy blasts: Someone mentioned Supes' heat vision being hotter than the sun. Not being made up of Ki and travelling almost instantaneously (And simply by eyesight), I think Goku would have real trouble with that. Certainly he trumps him on size of blasts and different types... but look at this:

Kamehameha would be somewhat effective. I can't really deny that, if he hit him with it, it'd hurt (Ki has shown to hurt Superman much like magic). But the Genki Dama would bounce off him like it did Gohan. Other little blasts wouldn't hurt too much. I wouldn't put many of them except for the named ones on par with the magic of Shazam!



> Re: Jason's comment: Yes, they're as meaningless as "pre-Crisis era Superman". What makes them meaningful is this thing called CONTEXT. We know that Master Roshi can ostensibly destroy the moon (or at least obfuscate it from sight), that Vegeta at far below SS levels could wreak enough harm to destroy the planet, etc. While I have my theories as to the nature of DBZ and relative power with other continuities, it's fairly irrelevant. At the least, Goku is within the same league as Superman.



That's a horrible comparison: Again, destroying the planet with a Ki blast and being able to physically move it is not in the same league.



> The measure is of a warrior's "ki", which manifests itself in boosted strength, speed, energy projecting abilities, flight, etc. etc. We know that this is the case because certain techniques momentarily increase someone's power level, because they rely on a focusing and summoning of normally latent energy.



*nods* Yeah, I'll agree. Not sure how that effects many things.



> Frankly, whatever DBZ's flaws, at the least characters notably mature and someone's strategy and technique matter just a little bit. Most fights on this forum are simple cock-size matches - manga typically adds techniques, which requires thinking beyond what square section of land someone can destroy.
> 
> At the end of GT, Goku has become united with objects of immeasurable power that grant wishes. Think Thanos.



Pfft. That first statement is utter crap, especially with DBZ. That manga is almost exclusively decided by power levels (Usually overwhelmingly different, as well). Naruto is one of the few ones that I've really been interested in that used tactics and techinques, and frankly it's devolved into power struggles recently as well.

Thanos = Darkseid, or thereabouts. Superman has taken on Darkseid, and I'm fairly confident he could take on Thanos equally.



> Re: Kento: Actually, Goku was apparently inches away from a sun far before he was Super Saiyan. Further, doing some mathematical manipulation leads me to the conclusion that Goku could probably destroy the sun, let alone survive on it. Further, Goku may be dumb normally... just as dumb as someone who thinks that a dumb suit and some glasses will obfuscate the fact that he's a reporter with pecs that can kill a man. In combat, however, Goku is legendarily brilliant. His character is derived from the Monkey King character who was similarly contingently intelligent.



...

Was that filler or no? Secondly, he only used the force from the Kamehameha to escape the pull of gravity, like using a magnum's recoil to propel one in space.

Superman is one of the greatest mind in the universe.



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> n the earliest comics, Kryptonians were endowed with genius-level intellects on their native planet. Eventually, this superior mental talent was altered to being another superpower gained only under the influence of a yellow sun (though Krypton still possessed an advanced educational and intellectual state). In the Silver Age comics, Superman possessed the intelligence of a collection of the world's greatest minds. He had a computer-like brain, which gave him total recall and the ability to speak all earthly languages and even most alien ones. The former ability is evidenced when he memorized the content of the Metropolis phone book in its entirety and all of the files at the Daily Planet. His skill with science and mathematics were beyond human comprehension. However, over time, this power as a whole has been scaled back, if not eliminated, in current comics. The ability is evident in The New Batman-Superman Adventures and the Justice League cartoon series, though. In the former, Lana Lang states that he is a "boy genius." Furthermore, his parents were among Krypton's brightest, as his father Jor-El was the planet's greatest scientist and his mother Lara was an astronaut or historian (depending on continuity). In Birthright continuity, Superman does retain his eidetic memory combined with his super-speed to learn and comprehend vast amounts of knowledge.



Goku is NOT beating him in intelligence. The guy who characterized Superman here did NOT know what the hell he was talking about.



> The highest estimate I've seen of Superman's raw muscular strength is 250,000 tons. Goku was training under 400 times normal gravity - that means he was supporting 80000 pounds at least OF HIS OWN WEIGHT. That was far before he was a SSJ3.



250,000 tons = 500,000,000 pounds. I also have a 800,000 tons figure as well, which would be 1,600,000,000 pounds. Now compare that to 80,000. Just a slight difference there. Also supporting one's own weight is a bit different than that.

Did these guys honestly know what the heck they were talking about?



> Re: Sound explanation for Superman's bio-field: My ass. Moving to a sun you're not used to does not give you superpowers, it gives you radiation sickness. It's fine as a story contrivance, just like ki is, except ki has a mythological precedent.



...

What the fuck is this guy talking about? Ki has a mythological precedent... at this point, so do Superman's powers! If it's viable as a 'plot contrivance', why wouldn't it be a valid use?



> Because of the unique biology of a Saiyan/Saiyajin, Goku's raw muscular strength alone seems to me to rival Superman. After all, he has survived blows that normally destroy planets. Add in ki and his ability to alter his power (including momentarily increasing it) and his ranged attacks and he is victorious.



Zuh? When has he survived a punch that would level a planet? I've only ever seen them break big rocks into smaller rocks. Goku's physical strength is nothing close to Superman from what has been shown so far.



> I will grant that a Z Fighter can be caught off guard and harmed more than Superman, but Superman has been pummeled by someone who got him in the wrong place. Superman was harmed by a nuke and pummeled by a future old Batman (admittedly after Kryptonite exposure, but still). We see Imperfect Cell easily survive an entire army's weaponry, whereas Superman does get harmed by direct blows from heavy missiles.



Debatable. I don't really remember Cell taking a nuclear blast, but that could just be me. Superman doesn't get harmed as much as he gets disoriented (pretty much getting violently tossed about rather than any physical harm).



> I think you have to compare apples to apples here. Superman can get thrown into a mountain and be ok. Superman can get throw into a mountain by Majin Buu and not be ok. You have to remember who the opponent is. People like Goku routinely fight opponents more powerful than they are. Think less about Superman being thrown here or there and more about Superman fightin Zod. Zod broke his jaw in one hit. Just one. More recently, Superman fought another Zod and was completely laid out. Superman vs. Zod better typifies the average fight for Goku, and Goku has taken a lot more damage and not been anywhere close to laid out so quickly.



Damn. Buu has special 'MOUNTAIN TOSSING POWERS' now, too?

On Zod: If he was a Kryptonian, no shit. Zod could break just about anyone's jaw. Then again, I'd like to see the context of this just to make sure. I don't remember any recent appearances of Zod in continuity (I thought he was retconned out back during Zero Hour).



> In terms of speed, it's been often remarked that the Z fighters fight so fast that their fights are invisible to human sight. In fact, child Krillin and Master Roshi fought so fast that people couldn't see their techniques. they had to reenact the whole fight in slow motion just to show the audience everything. CHILD. KRILLIN. Multiply that speed by 1000 to get adult Krillin. Multiply THAT by 1000 to get Goku. Multiply THAT by 10000 to get SSJ3 Goku.



Because Superman is really, really human, right? Superman is one of the few people that can keep up with Flash (Until Flash really starts moving). Flash DOES exceed the speed of light by more than a few factors. Eyesight is not a factor.

This guy just likes tossing around numbers. 1000x1000x1000x10849103482-034981-234 stuff just doesn't hold up.


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i dont give a shit about all of that, Desperado with a punch laid him out...did that punch have the capacity to destroy a star? if it did, then so could Buu's...you still havent proven a damn thing...supes inconsistencies are just as much as DBZs...
> 
> here's an inconsistency right in the same issue...have fun proving this wrong(you could say that was wonder woman doing the punching, so i guess that would mean wonder woman's punch=supernova blast...which would be retarded)...
> 
> ...



stupid arguments on gokus side.
DURABILITY: superman has taken a beating from a supercharged doomsday while lying on kryptonite. he has survived a blast equal to 
1000000 nuclear bombs. goku could not accomplish that.
EXPERIENCE: superman has more than 1000 years of training experience. goku has had decades, at the most.
SPEED: superman is faster than any dbz character (not including gokus teleporting ability, and that wont help either). he can reach lightspeed under his own power, while gotenks (who is a lot faster than goku) cannot.
INTELLIGENCE: superman is smarter than goku. goku stupidly let his son nearly walk into his death, while superman has super intellignece.
STRENGTH: superman has lifted billions of tonnes before, and ssj3 goku had trouble moving mountains.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

well, hes done all that...yet he gets hit once by Desperado and gets laid out, and bleeds from a punch from Brainiac...good job...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, hes done all that...yet he gets hit once by Desperado and gets laid out, and bleeds from a punch from Brainiac...good job...



Because, of course, Goku doesn't bleed at all? At least Brainiac has special strength-enhancing gauntlets going for him.

_DESPERO_ (Get the name right, damn it, not Desperado) is pretty damn powerful, too.



			
				wikipedia said:
			
		

> Despero is a powerful villain. The Flame of Py'tar gave Despero _Superman-level strength and toughness_. Also very intelligent, he is skilled as both a warrior and tyrant. His hypnotic third eye is directly connected to his brain, giving him telepathic powers that surpass (as seen in JLA #119) those of the Martian Manhunter. It is also capable of projecting realistic illusions and entrancing virtually any sentient being. It can also project beams of telekinetic energy enabling the teleportation of matter anywhere in the universe.



Edit: Holy Bullshit, Batman, I figured out where that Brainiac scan is from. "Sacrifice". That fight _is happening in Superman's mind as he's being manipulated by Maxwell Lord_.

OOPS!


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, hes done all that...yet he gets hit once by Desperado and gets laid out, and bleeds from a punch from Brainiac...good job...


And Goku had the chance of beting fat buu. And ending the whole bu Saga early on, avoiding his family, and earth being blown up. But he dosnt. Oh yea he a smart one alright.


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## Bullet (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> well, hes done all that...yet he gets hit once by Desperado and gets laid out, and bleeds from a punch from Brainiac...good job...



Despero (who beat, Power Girl, Wonder Woman, Superman, Captain Marvel, Hawkman, Hourman, Wildcat and Sand all at the SAME TIME) is far more powerful than Vegeto that's for sure! And Brainiac is also a Superman level being.

Superman is faster, stroger, more durable, and has way better stamina than Vegeto; you havn't proven anything on Vegeto's side.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

And just incase you missed my edit:

That Brainiac scan is from an illusion Superman was under. So your proof is pretty much gone, bucko.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

and none of you have proven anything on Base Supes side...

Pre-Crisis Supes> Vegetto
Prime Supes> Vegetto
Vegetto>post crisis supes before prime...

and dumby, Sacrifice wasnt happening it Supes mind, he was attacking Bats and wonder woman...so he was really getting punched...

Also, if Supes is so strong...how did Bats even survive a punch from a fully enraged superman over the loss of Lois? i smell inconsistencies...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> and none of you have proven anything on Base Supes side...
> 
> Pre-Crisis Supes> Vegetto
> Prime Supes> Vegetto
> ...



Wrong. Bats never got a chance to actually attack him. The illusion was there to get him to attack Bats, thus Lord made him feel like he was in an actual battle. Look at the entire scan, you moron: When he comes out of the illusion, he's no longer bleeding.

Edit:

Here's the scan where they show the events of the battle.



Wow, Batman put up a REAL fight.

No wait, he didn't. The Watchtower, and then Wonderwoman did. And Superman didn't even get bruised from it all.


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## Id (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> and dumby, Sacrifice wasnt happening it Supes mind, he was attacking Bats and wonder woman...so he was really getting punched...
> 
> Also, if Supes is so strong...how did Bats even survive a punch from a fully enraged superman over the loss of Lois? i smell inconsistencies...



I smell bullshit, oh no its you tring to make a point. Read the fucking comic!


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## Reznor (Apr 10, 2006)

I thought about joining this one, but I don't want to catch up on all the past discussion.

That, and the mod in me would be naziing it up by deleting stuff like 


> You're an idiot. Congrats.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

Err... my bad. Edited.


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## Bullet (Apr 10, 2006)

> BladeofTheImmortal said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

ok, fine so a push from an enraged superman(which can supposedly push planets) into a metal computer=Bats living...that is some smart writing there DC...also, Bats survived his heat vision...which is "HOTTER THAN THE SUN"...

anywho... Harry Potter>>>>>Superman...

also, how the fuck can i prove Goku could lift a planet, IF HE HAS NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION!...think about what you are asking fools, but using what has happened in the Manga, it is safe to assume that he could if he had to...obviously none of you will ever understand, and none of you will ever prove to me that Superman is stronger than Vegetto, so we should all just shut the fuck up...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ok, fine so a push from an enraged superman(which can supposedly push planets) into a metal computer=Bats living...that is some smart writing there DC...also, Bats survived his heat vision...which is "HOTTER THAN THE SUN"...



Yeah... it glanced right across his chest and basically formed two grooves on him. It's not like it didn't instantly incinerate part of the guy, and it just glanced him on top of that. Hell, if you want to argue it, he didn't even seem like he charged it up, he just fired off a quick and angry blast.

Give it up. You don't have any sort of argument to put Vegetto on the same level as Superman. Meanwhile, we've proven that Superman is much stronger than Vegetto. Got any proof of your own?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

if its as hot as the sun, one glance would be neough to kill him, but i guess you wouldnt understand that kind of smart shit...you guys havent proven shit...


----------



## Bullet (Apr 10, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ok, fine so a push from an enraged superman(which can supposedly push planets) into a metal computer=Bats living...that is some smart writing there DC...also, Bats survived his heat vision...which is "HOTTER THAN THE SUN"...
> 
> anywho... Harry Potter>>>>>Superman...




Superman still held back, if he did push Batman as hard as he could, Bats whould have had more than a few broken ribs. After that, the Drone came and interrupted, which Supes took care of, then WW came and deflected his Heat Vision. 

And yes Heat Vision is hotter than stars.

Supes is using his Heat Vision to get the foe off of him.

Cloud And Sepphy

Supes shoots a beam of low-intensity Heat Vision at the Moon. People in the watch tower was blinded except for Plastic Man cause sense he had shades on. The Moon is very far from Earth, this shows the range Supes Heat Vision has.

Cloud And Sepphy

In this pic it shows that Supes Heat Vision stated by them, "his vision is off the charts by any standard scientific measures". They can measure how hot a star is, but they cannot measure the temp of Supermans Heat Vision.

Einh?nder's website

In this pic his power is waning under a red sun, but he still summoned enough Heat Vision to successfully power Jor-ELs planet-moving ion engines. The in this case had a mass 16 times that of Earth's.

Einh?nder's website

After beating a planet, Superman reheats Earth.

Einh?nder's website

Superman calculating the guys melting point. Wich also shows how much he holds back with his Heat Vision, to keep from killing his foes.

Einh?nder's website

Einh?nder's website

Supes just spraying this guy with Heat Vision. If he wanted to, he could kill Vegeto easily with Heat Vision, without even letting him even breath. 

Einh?nder's website

Einh?nder's website

Einh?nder's website

Superman can also blind his opponent or just lobotimize his foe with Heat Vision. If he was fighting to kill without holding back there's no telling what he'll do.

Oh and I'm still waiting for evidence that makes Vegeto faster, stronger, more durable, and has better stamina than Superman please!


Normal Superman (post-crisis) >>>>>>>>>> Vegeto


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 10, 2006)

for all of that shit, there are plenty of comics that show him getting beat up by far less...i dont care how many scans you have, the inconsistencies of the superman comic are just as bad as DBZ...so haw about you all fuck yourselves...

Harry Potter could still kill Superman...


also, how the fuck can i prove Goku could lift a planet, IF HE HAS NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION!...think about what you are asking fools, but using what has happened in the Manga, it is safe to assume that he could if he had to...obviously none of you will ever understand, and none of you will ever prove to me that Superman is stronger than Vegetto, so we should all just shut the fuck up...


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> but using what has happened in the Manga, it is safe to assume that he could if he had to



How so? I see nothing in the manga that even slightly implies this.


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## atom (Apr 11, 2006)

Who cares? in DBZ if there losing they just spirt bomb em? duh...

and also if there losing that bad they would fuse while there BOTH super saiyan 4 using the EARING and what Old Kai said if they are super saiyan whlie using the earings they will have powers beyond which there bodies could handle and just die :/ but since we are making an expection


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## konflikti (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Harry Potter could still kill Superman...


Harry Potter could kill Vegetto and Gogeta too if he has adava kedavra(or whatever), but what does it have to do with this thread?


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeoftheImmortal, being a someone that has followed the DB/Z/GT world far more than the DC world I will say this

You are a failure of a fan


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## Id (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> also, how the fuck can i prove Goku could lift a planet, IF HE HAS NEVER BEEN IN THAT SITUATION!...think about what you are asking fools, but using what has happened in the Manga, it is safe to assume that he could if he had to...obviously none of you will ever understand, and none of you will ever prove to me that Superman is stronger than Vegetto, so we should all just shut the fuck up...




Because Goku struggled to pick up a Mountain in DBZ, and a Building in DBGT.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> if its as hot as the sun, one glance would be neough to kill him, but i guess you wouldnt understand that kind of smart shit...you guys havent proven shit...



Not true. We have lasers that give off no heat but can carve through diamonds. There's a distinct difference between how hot the beam is itself and how much residual heat it gives off.

So I guess I _DO_ understand it better than you do.


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## Green Lantern (Apr 11, 2006)

Thats 1,2,3,4...7 people in this thread against the one of you.

And you still won't bloody listen

Stop being ignorant.


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## Gunners (Apr 11, 2006)

^^^^ no, it is just rapid dc lovers.



> Who cares? in DBZ if there losing they just spirt bomb em? duh...



Anyway, a spirit bomb would not work against superman, it would bounce of him, it wont work on someone who is pure of heart.


----------



## Green Lantern (Apr 11, 2006)

FFS I read about as much manga and Marvel as I read DC so how dare you, or even anybody call me a DC lover!

Have you read any DC??


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## Gunners (Apr 11, 2006)

radishbak said:
			
		

> FFS I read about as much manga and Marvel as I read DC so how dare you, or even anybody call me a DC lover!
> 
> Have you read any DC??




Ohh you are typing to me. Dont flame at me dude, and yes i started reading dc, round about summer time.

That post, well actually it was somewhat aimed at you, regardless of the fact that i disagree with the guy, i don't agree with  about 7 guys calling him an idiot ,based on his views, because they clash with yours.

I should have changed my initial post to comic book lovers instead of dc lover.

People who love comic books, on a high level, tend to flame down on the dbz fans, the two comics can not be compared by feats as both worlds are diffrent.

You can look at dbz in two diffrent ways using logic, so if someone sides with one part of dbz over another that doesnt give people the right to start calling him and idiot.

------------

And i still stand by my original point of view.

Vegeto>superman
Vegeto<pre crisis superman
Vegeto<superboy prime.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 11, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Not true. We have lasers that give off no heat but can carve through diamonds. There's a distinct difference between how hot the beam is itself and how much residual heat it gives off.
> 
> So I guess I _DO_ understand it better than you do.



So the attack is not as hot as the sun...

that is exactly how i fell...I know how strong Superman is, but Vegetto is above Base Superman...

Prime superman would rape Vegetto...so would Pre-Crisis Supes...now, if Superman never kills Vegetto, and keeps letting him gain in power...one day(give him about 100 years of pwnage and becoming stronger) then he could be an even match for both...as it stands im with gunner...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> So the attack is not as hot as the sun...



... Yes, yes it is. Do you understand the concept of a _laser beam_? Highly focused light that can give off intense heat? Yeah, that heat doesn't disperse too much outside the beam. It's not like he's shooting fireballs at him. Please, LISTEN to WHAT WE ARE SAYING.



> that is exactly how i fell...I know how strong Superman is, but Vegetto is above Base Superman...



Again, proof? We've been giving examples from Base Superman so far. You've given us little to none on Vegetto. We've shown scans of a dozen instances where Superman uses his max powers. The only scans you've shown us are

1) Illusions

2) Like Despero, more proof of our point.

Please, provide PROOF instead of fanboy generalizations.


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## Gunners (Apr 11, 2006)

> Please, provide PROOF instead of fanboy generalizations.



I stated a while back, that with dbz you have to you logic instead, im not going to go into my logic of thinking, dbz went on about a significant amount less that superman, and it is not the type of comic/manga where you can gather infomation like the dc/marvel comics.

Dbz, focuses less on those things, it concentrates on the other aspects.

With superman, it will say if a character reaches light speed, it will say how much a character can lift.

Dragonballz, the feats that are given dont show the characters true potential to me.

I admit, if you were to go by pure feats with dragonball the characters would loose, that is why you have to mix logic in and base what they should be capable of doing based on weaker versions doing X.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 11, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Dragonballz, the feats that are given dont show the characters true potential to me.
> 
> I admit, if you were to go by pure feats with dragonball the characters would loose, that is why you have to mix logic in and base what they should be capable of doing based on weaker versions doing X.



Eh, fair enough. I can understand your logic, and the way you've been trying discussion is a lot better than a few of the others defending DBZ. I mean, one of the main reasons I've gotten so damn incensed is people like Blade and Phenominal (The latter of which didn't seem to understand DBZ at all since everything was er... 'MAGIC' to him o.o).

Frankly, If Vegetto beats him it would be through ki blasts. I said it before: Ki and magic work on Superman. If he can nail him enough times and hold out long enough, he could theoretically win. Just like Black Adam: Not as powerful as Superman, but he has an in. He can win the fight because of the magic in his punches.

I'm just tired of a bunch of the stuff that's been brought up, though. The abject stupidity of some of the arguments Blade borrowed were just out there. Saying we're justifying Prime Superman when almost all the material we've brought forwards is the current incarnation is quite irritating.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 11, 2006)

what the fuck are you talking, about man...using Gunners way of thinking is EXACTLY what ive been doing...

i said Roshi blowing up the moon=Vegetto who is i dont know how many times stronger, but its at least 100,000x stronger could probably blow up the solar system at the least...and yet you people laugh because i dont have a scan of him doing it...but he was only in 4 episodes at max and was never put into that situation.



			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> true, so we both lose...good job...and i have been using LOGIC dumbass, its you who isnt...
> 
> through logic, i have come to the conclusion that since Master Roshi can blow up something as big as the moon, with a powerlevel of 100...Vegetto(not even Super Vegetto) who is at least 10,000 times stronger could easily blow up a galaxy if he really really wanted to.



that is from page 12....but, i was wrong on the 10,000x stronger, because Roshi was only Power Level 100 when he destroyed the moon, and 10,000x 100 is only 1 million, and that was Frieza's second form...and 100,000x is wrong also, because that is only 10 million and Goku was 20 million when he FIRST turned into a Super Saiyan on namek, and Vegetto is even more than a Super Saiyjin 3 in his normal state...thats why i believe Vegetto>>>Base Supes...Prime would kill him, PreCrisis would kill him, but base supes would not...


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## Countach (Apr 11, 2006)

why are you talking about veggetto only as i recall ssj4 gogeta was much stronger then ssj veggetto


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> what the fuck are you talking, about man...using Gunners way of thinking is EXACTLY what ive been doing...
> 
> i said Roshi blowing up the moon=Vegetto who is i dont know how many times stronger, but its at least 100,000x stronger could probably blow up the solar system at the least...and yet you people laugh because i dont have a scan of him doing it...but he was only in 4 episodes at max and was never put into that situation.



Did you not read my post? The solar system is 1,000,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the moon, thats a lot more then 100,000 times....

Heck, even most fan estimates of Vegito's power level is like the ten's of billions range. Thats waaay smaller then 1,000,000,000,000,000.

Let me try to state this so its easy to understand. Here is your basic logic: "Roshi blew up the moon. Vegitto is a lot more powerful then Roshi but the actual amount of power difference is unknown. Therefore Vegitto must be able to atleast blow up a solar system."

Thats not very sound logic.


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## Bullet (Apr 11, 2006)

Scorpio3.14 said:
			
		

> Did you not read my post? The solar system is 1,000,000,000,000,000 times bigger then the moon, thats a lot more then 100,000 times....
> 
> Heck, even most fan estimates of Vegito's power level is like the ten's of billions range. Thats waaay smaller then 1,000,000,000,000,000.
> 
> ...



I agree! And this thread is just being draged on.


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## Gunners (Apr 11, 2006)

Yes, this thread has been dragged on, i dont wish it to be scrapped as apparently people still like and find in interesting to post on.

But to me, it is a never ending battle, that will never be resolved.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 11, 2006)

fine, maybe not solar system destroying power, but enough to kill base supes...


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## Countach (Apr 11, 2006)

please just let this thread die.


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## Bullet (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> fine, maybe not solar system destroying power, but enough to kill base supes...



He'll still lose to base Supes!


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 11, 2006)

only in yours, Ids, anyone else besides gunner's dreams...


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## Bullet (Apr 11, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> only in yours, Ids, anyone else besides gunner's dreams...



Doesn't matter. the ones that chose Superman went with the character that actaully has feats to back up what he can do, while the other (Vegeto) hasn't shown anything that makes him greater than Superman (and his support did even less)!


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 11, 2006)

hes shown feats, you just say they dont count, so whatever...


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## Id (Apr 11, 2006)

This is the thing. I base who is stronger by feats, and stated facts. Sure they are going to be inconsistent moments, from time to time. But when a match is made in the OB, we assume that

Characters are going to fight at their best.



No one is denying the fact that Goku or Vegito for that matter is powerful.
But there is no doubt that Superman is powerful as well. And Superman best feats, to me at least lives up to to his bio.

Strength Vast
Speed Vast
Durability Vast.

So when I compare feats, I see Vegito smacking off a planet destroying attack. But in the one time Goku did take on a planet Destroying attack (Which by that time he should have bin able to smack off). Goku died.
On top the few times they demonstrated actual strength feats, DBZ characters have come short.

Pushing a city or the  Moon >>>>>>picking up a building
Escaping a double black hole>>>>>>>Training in the gravity room
So I simply don’t think Vegito has the strength necessary to beat, Current Superman.


In terms of durability, Superman has taken in several occasions planet destroying attacks. Fights in high intensity even when he is exposed to his weakness (Red Sun, Kriptonite, Magic)
As a matter of fact, he has taken Galaxy destroying attacks. 

This is why I give the durability advantage to Superman as well.

Speed, I give the advantage to superman in the speed department.  Escaping a double black hole, reaching Venus in a vary short amount of time. While I don’t consider “IT” an actual speed feat. I agree it can be used as a tool.

I already listed many times  before how Superman is faster then the speed of light, yet I am still waiting for some to post a Dbz character moving at the speed of light.

That’s why I give the advantage to superman.

Also although Superman may not have building size blast, (kame ha anyone) his heat vision does reaches the temperatures of the sun. Like I stated before Superman can survive a full power Kame Ha, Yet Goku wont survive a full power Heat Vision.

Again, I base my decision on actual displays of power and feats. Not assumptions, or estimated guess. 
That’s my own personal opinion and I have nothing more to prove.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

whatever son, i dont care...Vegetto>>>Base Supes get over it...


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> whatever son, i dont care...Vegetto>>>Base Supes get over it...



Just like all the evidence you've shown has proven...oh wait. What evidence?


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

yours has made me think any less of Vegetto...just because they have not done the feat, doesnt mean they couldnt if the writers wrote him like that...

using logic, somone that can blow up a moon that isnt even 0.99% of Vegettos power means Vegetto could prolly do a shitload worse, none of you can see that, cept for gunner..so i dont give a shit about your "evidence" that base superman is stronger...


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 12, 2006)

Superman isn't only about ki blasts. He hasn't shown any physical feats that could hurt Superman


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

his ki blastas could hurt Superman...


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## Ikari Shinji (Apr 12, 2006)

Okay, Cell (PL:4mil) could destroy a solar system
Vegitto/Gogeta (PL:29bilx2) can do ALOT more then that

Vegitto>>>>>Superman


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 12, 2006)

UzumakiHyuugaRendan said:
			
		

> Okay, Cell (PL:4mil) could destroy a solar system
> Vegitto/Gogeta (PL:29bilx2) can do ALOT more then that
> 
> Vegitto>>>>>Superman



That's all made up stuff. Power levels was disused after the Frieza Saga so any powerlevels after then is all made up (except Trunks when he first comes to Earth)


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## Ikari Shinji (Apr 12, 2006)

I just follow what the playing cards say, it's official enough for me
Also Chibi Goku stopped Sin's ultimate which could destroy the universe, and he's weaker then Gogeta/Vegitto


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## Etude (Apr 12, 2006)

UzumakiHyuugaRendan said:
			
		

> Okay, Cell (PL:4mil) could destroy a solar system
> Vegitto/Gogeta (PL:29bilx2) can do ALOT more then that
> 
> Vegitto>>>>>Superman



Where do you get these numbers from?

Taken from
Vaporizer
Vegetto power level: 26,000,000,000 (26 Bil)


Vegetto power level: 99,500,000 (99.5 mil)


Vegetto power level: 600,000,000 (600 mil)

Wikipedia, Subject "Theoretical Power Levels"
Vegetto power level: 900,000,000 (900 mil)

Sunuvmann's Attention Whore Vacation Pics Thread!
Vegetto power level: 64,000,000 (64 mil)

So his power level is anywhere between 26 billion and 64 million.


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> his ki blastas could hurt Superman...



Superman's fist and Heat Vision can do more!


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

no they cant, if an enraged Superman cant kill Batman with his heat vision, then he cant do shit to GOku...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> no they cant, if an enraged Superman cant kill Batman with his heat vision, then he cant do shit to GOku...



Normal Supes >>>>> Vegeto 

Still waiting for that evidence too!


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

im waiting for the evidence that says his blasts cant...

ok, until i see a Scan that has Superman standing over Vegetto's lifeless body...then Vegetto>>>Superman.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> im waiting for the evidence that says his blasts cant...
> 
> ok, until i see a Scan that has Superman standing over Vegetto's lifeless body...then Vegetto>>>Superman.



Your logic is both retarded and biased

That also speaks volumes about you as well

Until I see a scan of Vegetto standing over Superman's lifeless body then 

Superman >>>>>> Vegetto


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

alright,  we both lose...neither can beat each other...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> alright,  we both lose...neither can beat each other...



Superman can beat him, since he has feats far greater than Vegeto's.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

i havent seen any...


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## Gunners (Apr 12, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman can beat him, since he has feats far greater than Vegeto's.




I stated it a few pages back, with dbz you have to use logic involved, i will not state my reasons a second time because you still wouldnt get it.


If you are matching feats vs feats then dbz would loose.

But it is unfair to do that, dc actually spends a lot of time dedicated into showing feats, while dragonball doesnt, a lot of dragonball has to be gathered by yourself through logic.

To the person who said untill i see vegito stood other superman, superman >>>>>> vegito.

You have the right to call, whats hish name, biased. That to me, is a pure sign of bias righ there, spend more time choosing your words before they fall back on you.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Apr 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> To the person who said untill i see vegito stood other superman, superman >>>>>> vegito.
> 
> You have the right to call, whats hish name, biased. That to me, is a pure sign of bias righ there, spend more time choosing your words before they fall back on you.



Just so you know I'm actually rooting for Vegito and Gogeta but since I can't actually show anything that they've done in terms of physical power then I'm just trying to take the next best option and be a mediator of what makes the most sense

Though really it still kinda irks me to say Superman would own Gogeta or Vegito


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i havent seen any...



This is why I didn't group you in with Gunners. First off, you present not only bogus evidence (Both those scans), you deny perfectly good evidence brought before you.

Gunners admitted that when it comes to proof (Which we've provide in VAST amounts for *BASE* Superman), Superman technically wins. You, on the other hand, constantly assert the opposite with no evidence to support you (Something Gunners even admits). Gunners RECOGNIZED proof, you (For all your "AMAZING LOGIC!") can't.

On "Not killing Batman":

1) He had him for all of maybe a few seconds before the Watchtower itself activated. He was completely engraged, yes. But he wanted to cause Brainiac PAIN. He didn't want to kill him immediately: It's obvious he could have done that. He wanted him to suffer (Hence choking him rather than simply snapping his neck like a twig).

2) Despite barely doing anything to him, Batman is basically in critical condition fighting for his life, and he's getting special alien medical care to repair his body. This is after maybe a second and a half of fighting, and he managed to leave a fingerprint on his skin from the force he exerted.

3) Other obvious shows of strength. We've provided stats, scans, and a great deal of proof that he's far stronger than anything you've currently provided.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

I say all of that, because when i use the logical way, people say.. "WELL HE COULDNT LIFT A MOUNTAIN" and you know, he hasnt had a 40 year run time to do any of that shit...

nobody understands that if Roshi could blow up the moon, Vegetto could pretty much take out half the solar system if not more...i mean shit, if they werent getting stronger than Master Roshi, then why the fuck would they need to train and get stronger int he first place, is Dragonball Goku stronger than Vegetto? thats the logic i see from all of you naming feats. You know, they dont blow planets up left and right because that would make for a boring show, but you are to easily assume they can because of how strong they have gotten since their younger selves. Yet all you fuckers want are scans that have not been written, that doesnt mean it is impossible or even imporbable if you actually think about the shit they have accomplished. You say he could barely lift a mountain, you know maybe they just wanted that to look cool, that doesnt mean thats where he stops lifting, since we only say the man in 4 eps, he could maybe move 2 planets...


1) chokinf brainiac and choking a human are 2 different fucking things...if superman is as strong as you say, one second is all the fucker would've needed....that is why it is an inconsistency...

3) i cant provide anything if the writers did not give us anything, fine you bitches...let me go find Akira Toriyama, and make him draw Vegetto moving a planet/ blowing up the solar system...because logically you all fail...


----------



## EvilMoogle (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> 3) i cant provide anything if the writers did not give us anything, fine you bitches...let me go find Akira Toriyama, and make him draw Vegetto moving a planet/ blowing up the solar system...because logically you all fail...



Which is the whole essance of feats based proofs.  If a character hasn't been shown able to do something, and supporting evidence doesn't exist to prove they can do something, then you have to either assume they can't, or give up with a post saying something like "well, I think Vegetto should win but we never got to see enough of him."

Otherwise nothing would stop someone from making the argument that the ramen shop owner in Naruto could whup up on Vegetto, I mean, he's never been shown to be hurt by anything, has he?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

i am using supporting evidence god damnit....

Master Roshi could blow up moon...Vegetto who is exponentially stronger could probably fuck up most of the solar system without wasting breath...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i am using supporting evidence god damnit....
> 
> Master Roshi could blow up moon...Vegetto who is exponentially stronger could probably fuck up most of the solar system without wasting breath...



Superman >>>>>>>>Vegeto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Roshi


----------



## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> I say all of that, because when i use the logical way, people say.. "WELL HE COULDNT LIFT A MOUNTAIN" and you know, he hasnt had a 40 year run time to do any of that shit...



Hey, that's not my fault. Simply put, Vegetto, despite his powerful appearance, hasn't shown anything nearly as impressive as a fraction of what *BASE* Superman has done.



> nobody understands that if Roshi could blow up the moon, Vegetto could pretty much take out half the solar system if not more...i mean shit, if they werent getting stronger than Master Roshi, then why the fuck would they need to train and get stronger int he first place, is Dragonball Goku stronger than Vegetto? thats the logic i see from all of you naming feats. You know, they dont blow planets up left and right because that would make for a boring show, but you are to easily assume they can because of how strong they have gotten since their younger selves. Yet all you fuckers want are scans that have not been written, that doesnt mean it is impossible or even imporbable if you actually think about the shit they have accomplished. You say he could barely lift a mountain, you know maybe they just wanted that to look cool, that doesnt mean thats where he stops lifting, since we only say the man in 4 eps, he could maybe move 2 planets...



Inconsistancy, thy name is Dragonball. There have also been far more powerful blasts than what blew up the moon that have hit the Earth, but you know what? They only made craters. It took Goku getting up to the Perfect SSJ form and charging an INCREDIBLE Kamehameha for Cell to even think of worrying about the Earth during Cell Games. How come it takes Roshi just a regular Kamehameha, but Goku has to be at top SSJ form and charging up a ton of energy to blast Earth? Logically speaking, since Earth is only 6 times, he would only need to be 6 times more powerful than Roshi.

So I guess, by YOUR logic (Since it's all transitive math), SSJ Goku, using a good part of his power, is only at a powerlevel of 600.

Wow, I can see the incredible consistancy there.

The logic in naming feats is what can we judge from one's actions. Vegetto's actions, while showing himself off to be incredibly powerful, doesn't mean he's far beyond everything. 1 BILLON POWERLEVEL OMG.... or 60 Millon? He'd still be far more powerful than anyone in the DBZ Universe.

But...

We've shown that Superman is easily oen of the most powerful non-cosmic forces in the DCU, if not the most. We've shown that he moves faster than light, can move planets, has rays hotter than the sun (Lasers, ass. Thusly they don't need to radiate heat like you're whining about).



> 1) chokinf brainiac and choking a human are 2 different fucking things...if superman is as strong as you say, one second is all the fucker would've needed....that is why it is an inconsistency...



Choking Brianiac is choking a living, breathing thing, idiot. It's no different. If he had wanted to kill him instantly, he would have. Instead, out of grief, he wanted to choke him to death so that he'd feel as much pain as possible.

It's not an inconsistancy. If you want inconsistant, look at Dragonball: For the life of me, if these guys can exceed light speed, they sure take a lot of time travelling places and being late.

Don't talk shit about someone who has nothing to brag about.



> 3) i cant provide anything if the writers did not give us anything, fine you bitches...let me go find Akira Toriyama, and make him draw Vegetto moving a planet/ blowing up the solar system...because logically you all fail...



Aww, can't stand the heat?

Logically, we _win_. Logically speaking, we have provided proof to all our assertions.

Logically, YOU lose. Shut up, go home, and cry to your Goku doll already.


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## Gunners (Apr 12, 2006)

> Inconsistancy, thy name is Dragonball. There have also been far more powerful blasts than what blew up the moon that have hit the Earth, but you know what? They only made craters. It took Goku getting up to the Perfect SSJ form and charging an INCREDIBLE Kamehameha for Cell to even think of worrying about the Earth during Cell Games. How come it takes Roshi just a regular Kamehameha, but Goku has to be at top SSJ form and charging up a ton of energy to blast Earth? Logically speaking, since Earth is only 6 times, he would only need to be 6 times more powerful than Roshi.
> 
> So I guess, by YOUR logic (Since it's all transitive math), SSJ Goku, using a good part of his power, is only at a powerlevel of 600.
> 
> ...



You have to rember with the blast, they can somewhat, which i use my logic on, control the spread of their attacks, meaning they can have a really powerful attack, but constrain it so it doesnt whipe out the earth.

Now that is logical, it would explain the planet not being vapurised.

WIth cells kamehameha, the worry could have been whether he could control such an attack in a way it wouldnt blow up the earth.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

Indeed, but for a powerlevel 100 being able to level a moon, there is inconsistancy. It's part of the series, I just learned to accept it: People, whether they really should be able to or not, can just blow up planets at will. I believed it more at the end part of the Cell Saga, but I accepted it more as a plot device earlier on.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

they wont believe you gunner...first they say heat vision is as hott as the sun, except when it touches people's skin...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> they wont believe you gunner...first they say heat vision is as hott as the sun, except when it touches people's skin...



Because it's a fucking laser beam, not a blast of heat, you moron. Do you understand what a laser is? His heat vision isn't actual heat, it's his eyes condensing light into a ultra-condensed beam, which ends up as hotter than the sun when he concentrates it. Technically speaking, it would simply vaporize the skin that it touches and little else.

So just shut up already with your imagined 'inconsistancies'.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

IT DIDNT VAPORIZE THE FUCKING SKIN THOUGH! thanks for proving MY point on its inconcistency...


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## Etude (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeoftheImmortal said:
			
		

> 3) i cant provide anything if the writers did not give us anything, fine you bitches...let me go find Akira Toriyama, and make him draw Vegetto moving a planet/ blowing up the solar system...because logically you all fail...



This made me laugh for some reason...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> IT DIDNT VAPORIZE THE FUCKING SKIN THOUGH! thanks for proving MY point on its inconcistency...



Superman >>>>>> Vegeto

Heat Vision will vaporize Vegeto!


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

not if it cant do shit to Batman...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

> IT DIDNT VAPORIZE THE FUCKING SKIN THOUGH! thanks for proving MY point on its inconcistency...



... Yes, it did. It created a fucking groove in him from the burn. It simply glanced him and the heat of the beam carved a groove in him. What the fuck do you not understand?

At any rate, a spur of the moment uncharged shot would carve an ample groove even if it hit him dead on.



			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> not if it cant do shit to Batman...



He did do shit to Batman, though. He didn't kill him because he was trying to simply inflict pain upon him, you moron. Look at Batman's state when he's in on the stretcher. Wonderwoman brought up the Purple Ray projector for God's sake.

What part about CRITICAL CONDITION do you not understand?


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

he should have been dead...heat of the sun would incinerate the skin, and go through him with just one hit, i dont think you know how hot the sun is...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> he should have been dead...heat of the sun would incinerate the skin, and go through him with just one hit, i dont think you know how hot the sun is...



I don't think you understand the concept of a laser beam.

Vaporizing a groove in someone would not instantly destroy them. Rather, it would just go straight through them, instantly cauterizing the wound. A laser doesn't give off residual heat like a fireball, so it'd be impossible for him to vaporize Batman in with the thin beams he used on him. Now if he widened them ala Superboy Prime against a few of the Teen Titans (Just cutting them in half and such), I'd agree. But he used his thin version on Batman, and it didn't look like he charged it up much at all. Another thing that should be considered is that he barely got a shot off before Wonder Woman appeared and saved Batman's life. Had he perhaps gotten off a longer shot, yeah.

Going right through someone =/= vaporized. Stop crying and just leave already; you've already disgraced DBZ lovers enough.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

listen, the sun is hot enough to kill you in not even a second if you were to stand on it...that being concentrated in a blast would not only go through the skin, but through the muscles, heart, and whatever else in the second it took to go over his chest...

Batman should be dead if his heat vision is as strong as you say...that means it is an inconsistancy, or the attack is not as hot as the fucking sun...

and if he can make it weaker at will, how is it so hard to see that DBZs blasts are just like that? stronger or weaker depending on how much power they pput into it...therfore it is not an inconsistancy of DBZ either just because they haven't blown up a galaxy or soemthing of that magnitude, they have never had to, so they dont put that much fucking power INTO IT!


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> listen, the sun is hot enough to kill you in not even a second if you were to stand on it...that being concentrated in a blast would not only go through the skin, but through the muscles, heart, and whatever else in the second it took to go over his chest...



It's not a fucking blast you moron! It's a _laser_. There's a difference in the style of contact. A laser WOULD go right through you... and cauterize everything there. It'd hurt like hell, but it'd be livable simply because it would cause such pinpoint damage. If he were to widen it, agreed. But he doesn't need to all the time.

Secondly, that's the upper limit of the power. A snap-shot heat vision blast wouldn't do nearly as much damage (As I've been saying). Concentration isn't something one has in a rage, thusly it'd be wrong to assume he got near full power when he just shot it at him for half a second in a blind rage. He just shot it off as quickly as he could.

Stop being an idiot and ignoring the entirity of the argument.



> Batman should be dead if his heat vision is as strong as you say...that means it is an inconsistancy, or the attack is not as hot as the fucking sun...



That's like saying "EVERY KAMEHAMEHA IS THE SAME STRENGTH". His heat vision is light enough to use for surgery without damaging the person visibly (Look at what he did to Manchester Black; he basically gave his brain the equivalent to a concussion).

Here: The Wikipedia Article



> Heat vision: The ability to fire beams of intense heat at a target by looking at it with the conscious act of activating this power. Visually, the power is typically depicted as twin laser beams firing from the eyes. These beams can be made invisible, allowing Superman to work undetected. This ability was first introduced in the 1950s comics as "the heat of his x-ray vision"; in the early 1960s, heat vision became its own power distinct from x-ray vision. This power uses his stored energy and can be projected to an undetermined range. The maximum temperature of his heat vision is said to reach those of nuclear detonations. Area of effect can be consciously determined by Superman, down to the microscopic level. Recent stories imply the precision is so exact it can bypass a target's outer shell (not causing damage to a person's skull for surgical purposes) or even defenses (such as invulnerability).


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Apr 12, 2006)

Let me make this super clear. 

Superman's power level is one trillion Vegito is not one trillion... I win.  

The above post, was attempting to use the same deluded logic that has been used throughout this thread.

NOW - you be the judge did I suceed?


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> and if he can make it weaker at will, how is it so hard to see that DBZs blasts are just like that? stronger or weaker depending on how much power they pput into it...therfore it is not an inconsistancy of DBZ either just because they haven't blown up a galaxy or soemthing of that magnitude, they have never had to, so they dont put that much fucking power INTO IT!



But the problem is, the blasts AREN'T weaker at will. They are STRONGER. FAR STRONGER. The inconsistancy in having a man of 100 powerlevel being able to blow up the moon (Since a Farmer with a Shotgun is 5, I suppose I only need 20 farmers to destroy the moon anyways as well), yet watching guys of 20,000,000 just wrecklessly tossing about blast after blast everywhere is counter-intuitive.

Superman's heatvision not penetrating as much because he didn't concentrate as much and fired off quickly so as not to build up it's power is consistant. Saying a massively more powered blast doesn't blow up a planet when a far weaker one has shown to IS inconsistant.


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## Gunners (Apr 12, 2006)

> Superman's heatvision not penetrating as much because he didn't concentrate as much and fired off quickly so as not to build up it's power is consistant. Saying a massively more powered blast doesn't blow up a planet when a far weaker one has shown to IS inconsistant.



I disagree with that.

As superman can hold his attacks back, and control the damage they do.

That is most likely what the dbz characters do, when they fire attacks and they create craters, the logical explanation is they control the area of damage.

It is the only thing which makes sense otherwise the series would have ended with the radidtz fight.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> I disagree with that.
> 
> As superman can hold his attacks back, and control the damage they do.
> 
> ...



To a certain level that makes sense.

But when Superman holds back his attacks,  his attacks _have less power_. In DBZ, attacks that would have far more power than 139 (Roshi's power level) do not cause nearly enough damage to seemingly destroy the planet. With the reckless abandon that they are thrown about, it's a bit inconsistant to think that Roshi could simply destroy a planet if he wants to.

It likely stems from the fact that Toriyama didn't think to continue the manga NEARLY as long as he did, nor with the same characters or power levels (Goku WAS supposed to die on Namek, after all). Plus, once you get into the area of insane firepower, it's hard to come back down. I simply think he didn't realize how much longer he was gonna go on, so he sort of blew his wad on Roshi to show off his power.

Ah well. It's not like DBZ is a bad manga or anything (I mean, it was one of my own firsts), just it does have some recognizable inconsistancies when it comes to power levels. That's all.


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## Gunners (Apr 12, 2006)

> To a certain level that makes sense.
> 
> But when Superman holds back his attacks, his attacks have less power. In DBZ, attacks that would have far more power than 139 (Roshi's power level) do not cause nearly enough damage to seemingly destroy the planet. With the reckless abandon that they are thrown about, it's a bit inconsistant to think that Roshi could simply destroy a planet if he wants to.



If you apply this it makes a lot of sense.

With the attacks, they most control how far the explosion travels, lets say they make the attack spread 50x10x10, only 5000cm3 could be damaged, yet if they spread it over the world, it could whipe the world out.

At the sametime, what is in that area, would in theory be obliterated as all that energy would be concentrated.

I hope this makes sense to you.



> It likely stems from the fact that Toriyama didn't think to continue the manga NEARLY as long as he did, nor with the same characters or power levels (Goku WAS supposed to die on Namek, after all). Plus, once you get into the area of insane firepower, it's hard to come back down. I simply think he didn't realize how much longer he was gonna go on, so he sort of blew his wad on Roshi to show off his power.
> 
> Ah well. It's not like DBZ is a bad manga or anything (I mean, it was one of my own firsts), just it does have some recognizable inconsistancies when it comes to power levels. That's all.



I see with you on that part, the reason i go with my logic is the kamehameha which roshi fired would not scratch current goku.

So the attacks that do harm him must be greater than roshi's, yet they don't blow up the earth, so the conclusion is the attacks are concentrated to a specific location and are controlled to only spread so far.

But yeh you are right, he probably didnt intend the series to go on that long.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

he definitely didnt intend the series to go this long, hell i think the Freiza ending would've been one of the best endings in a Manga ever...its like if Naruto centered on Yondaime, and then he gave up his life at the Kyuubi fight...that would be awesome, but since it did go on to get to Vegetto, well i just think he is strong enough for base supes... although i would've rather seen it end at Freiza...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

> he definitely didnt intend the series to go this long, hell i think the Freiza ending would've been one of the best endings in a Manga ever...its like if Naruto centered on Yondaime, and then he gave up his life at the Kyuubi fight...that would be awesome, but since it did go on to get to Vegetto, well i just think he is strong enough for base supes... although i would've rather seen it end at Freiza...



It doesn't matter how far Akira wanted the series to go, Vegeto isn't stronger than base Supes if he doesn't have feats on par.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 12, 2006)

whatever, he is stronger...thats all im saying...


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## Bullet (Apr 12, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> whatever, he is stronger...thats all im saying...



And I'm saying he's weaker, that's all I'm saying.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 12, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> If you apply this it makes a lot of sense.
> 
> With the attacks, they most control how far the explosion travels, lets say they make the attack spread 50x10x10, only 5000cm3 could be damaged, yet if they spread it over the world, it could whipe the world out.
> 
> ...



No, it does. I understand that they may have more TOTAL destructive force, that force is contained in a much different way.

I.E. The blast that Roshi shot was made for maximum force, with no regard for anything but blowing up a huge thing such as the moon. Meanwhile something like the Big Bang Attack that Vegita used may have been far more powerful, but through technique was meant to be contained so that it didn't blow up the planet.

I just personally don't subscribe to it. It seems too indepth, and DBZ was fairly simple. I just think it's easier to say that he bent the rules more and more as he went rather than trying to be consistant. It's more like a popcorn action flick: It doesn't NEED to make sense, it just needs to be fun.



> I see with you on that part, the reason i go with my logic is the kamehameha which roshi fired would not scratch current goku.
> 
> So the attacks that do harm him must be greater than roshi's, yet they don't blow up the earth, so the conclusion is the attacks are concentrated to a specific location and are controlled to only spread so far.
> 
> But yeh you are right, he probably didnt intend the series to go on that long.



Yeah, I get all that.

And I KNOW he intended for Goku to be dead at the end of the Frieza saga and intended for Gohan to take over. Personally, I would have agreed with him; it's more fun to watch the person become strong then just watching them get powerup after powerup. Ah well. S'all good.

By the by, Vegetto would be a handful and a half for Supes. He'd have a bunch of trouble with him, even if he is stronger. Overall, though, I think he would pull it out, simply because his power, when he starts cutting loose, is just limitless.


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## Countach (Apr 12, 2006)

Since this thread will not die i state my opinion.  Superman would probley beat vegetto but he could not beat vegetto and gogeta.  Its a simple move of the big bang kamahameha and the superkamehameha with the aid of useing IT to go somewere to charge their attacks and then IT back and kill superman with their attacks at the same time, 
But superman would pwn vegetto by himself


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 13, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> And I'm saying he's weaker, that's all I'm saying.



ok, but im right...


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## Bullet (Apr 13, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> ok, but im right...



Ok, but you're wrong...especially when you have know proof!


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## Gunners (Apr 13, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Ok, but you're wrong...especially when you have know proof!




I just thought i would post to say you annoy me.

It has been established that dbz, you have to use logic when debating, the series never lasted 50 years, and there is little feats that show the characters potential.

If you are looking at it from a feats angle, then superman wins any day of the weak, and incarnation.

But with debates, you also use a thing called logic, which actually evens the two out somewhat.


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## konflikti (Apr 13, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> I just thought i would post to say you annoy me.
> 
> It has been established that dbz, you have to use logic when debating, the series never lasted 50 years, and there is little feats that show the characters potential.
> 
> ...


I'd happily agree with that, but the responses BotI gives have nothing to do with logic. They are just dragging the thread on.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Apr 13, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> I just thought i would post to say you annoy me.
> 
> It has been established that dbz, you have to use logic when debating, the series never lasted 50 years, and there is little feats that show the characters potential.
> 
> ...



I've said several times to you and others that I am perfectly fine with useing logic to gauge the stength, speed, durability, etc... of DBZ characters. HOWEVER, ive also asked several times if I could see this "logic" that is used to come up with Vegitto being stronger, faster, more durable, and just all around better then Superman and yet I have not heard anything from anyone.

Please, if you are going to use the logic card actually use the logic you speak of.

PS Most all of the feats for Superman listed here are only about 10 years old or newer I would estimate. DB had a run of almost 11 years and it was done weekly while Superman was done less then that. The time allowed for feats thing is really pointless to bring up.


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## Gunners (Apr 13, 2006)

^^^ oh no, im not saying i agree with ,whats his name? post. I dont think i agree with parts saying roshi can blow up a moon they can blow up the universe as it is scaled incorrectly.

It just annoys me when people always say bring proof ( like bullet just then) when they know that with dbz, you have to do more comparison between things.

If you are strictly using proof tao was able to throw that block so far, yet it is impossible for the level he was at.

The manga was written for fun, and the author was careless, that is why i somewhat hate dbz vs comics, because comics spend a lot of time making sure their feats fit with reality etc.

--------

Anyway, i dont really care about gogeta as i character i hate him we never really saw him.

Vegito vs superman prime, would probably loose.

Vegito vs superman, i beleive vegito would win, and im not getting into it, because this is not the thread ( im not up for fw3).

This thread, who would win, i really dont care, i just want it to end.


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## Bullet (Apr 13, 2006)

> I just thought i would post to say you annoy me.





> I'd happily agree with that, but the responses BotI gives have nothing to do with logic. They are just dragging the thread on.



So, I don't care.  The posts I see on this thread annonys me, it's why I respond, and I'll keep responding if I don't agree with what someone post.



> But with debates, you also use a thing called logic, which actually evens the two out somewhat.



Yes, which Superman wins in too.



> It just annoys me when people always say bring proof ( like bullet just then) when they know that with dbz, you have to do more comparison between things.



Bring proof? 




> Vegito vs superman, i beleive vegito would win, and im not getting into it, because this is not the thread ( im not up for fw3).



Where's that logic you were talking about? Superman wins, since he has the necessary feats, and whould be the logical choice.


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## Gunners (Apr 13, 2006)

> Where's that logic you where talking about?



It was a reply to you saying proof, if the guy is not providing proof and using logic.

You have to accept that with dbz you have to use logic, what you should then do it prove his logic wrong.

Which some did, with the calculation between universe and the moon.

Logic that i brought up, is the characters controlling the area their attacks spread, for the simple reason, if master roshi fired a full kamehameha at freiza it wouldnt dent him, yet if goku fires one it would, yet it has no affect on the planet, the logical explanation is the attack is controlled so the damage is confined to a particular area.

That is something i said about logic a few pages back, saying that they at the very very very minimum can take moon blowing-up attakcs.


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## Bullet (Apr 13, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> It was a reply to you saying proof, if the guy is not providing proof and using logic.
> 
> You have to accept that with dbz you have to use logic, what you should then do it prove his logic wrong.
> 
> ...



This still doesn't prove that Vegeto is faster, stronger, more durable, or has better stamina than Superman. Superman is the logical choice, since he has all his feats out on paper; not left for me to guess or figure out how strong he whould be, like you're doing with Vegeto.


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2006)

GOD DAMN IT, AGREE TO DISAGREE AND END THE THREAD.

Jesus, it's not like gunners is being an asshole about this. You can't change the way he thinks, he's actually being very civil. So what if he thinks Vegito can beat Superman? Black Adam could take on Superman, and he/s significantly weaker. He just has an in (Magic), just like what Vegito has (Ki Blasts). No battle is an absolute when the forces are a moderately decent matchup.

And just to say... not EVERYTHING needs to be addressed. One can say that Vegetto can logically be inferred to be incredibly powerful, as it vanquished the most (Or one of the most) powerful incarnations of a fairly unstoppable, planet destroying being. Saying Vegetto has the power to destroy the universe (Or even the system Sol) because Roshi destroyed the moon early on in the series is not, because the ability to destroy a planet has been shown to vary a bit from arc to arc.

Can a mod close this thread? It can only turn into more flaming, to be honest.


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## Bullet (Apr 13, 2006)

> GOD DAMN IT, AGREE TO DISAGREE AND END THE THREAD.



Do you think you're being civil now for posting this?



> Jesus, it's not like gunners is being an asshole about this. You can't change the way he thinks, he's actually being very civil. So what if he thinks Vegito can beat Superman? Black Adam could take on Superman, and he/s significantly weaker. He just has an in (Magic), just like what Vegito has (Ki Blasts). No battle is an absolute when the forces are a moderately decent matchup.



Since when has KI been know as magic?


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Do you think you're being civil now for posting this?



Were you being civil when you basically flame-bated by saying

"Superman >>>>>> Vegetto"?

The argument's over. Let it end.



> Since when has KI been know as magic?



It's mystically-divined spiritual energy. It's on the same level as magic, if not being simply magic itself. I don't see why it wouldn't be counted the same as anything else.

Or, better put...

Can you give a scientific definition of it? If not, then it is likely mystical in nature. Current Superman can be hurt by mystical beings and powers (Magic, Ki, Chi, etc...), so it's a logical extension of his current weaknesses.


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## Bullet (Apr 13, 2006)

> Justice And Rule said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 13, 2006)

i didnt start being uncivil until you guys just stopped looking at my logic...i started doing half solar system blowing up power, and you can basically look and see that using Roshi...

Vegetto is better than base supes, and that is all there is to it. I dont care what you say, just let the thread die for fucks sake...


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## Guy Gardner (Apr 13, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> I guess we both were being uncivil then.
> 
> But I was only being that way to one person (the Blade of Immortal guy), and that's because he was being uncivil from the start.



Everyone was, admittedly. I just wanted to end it. In my opinion, gunners has been very civil with everyone. He was basically admitting he didn't have a case; I felt it slightly rude to sort of question his opinion even though he said he really couldn't back much of it up with proof.



> IMO Ki comes from the lifeforce of the user, channeled for power to do simple things like low-end telekinesis, energy blasts, and heals. I think KI usually involves some form of martial arts and meditation and the user generally has to pull off some physical moves and generally be in good physical shape. In other words, it's a mix of spiritual and physical energy. In scientific terms, it might be considered projected bioelectricity. I don't consider KI magical; that whould mean almost all of Superman's villians(Darkseid, Black Rock) or Hero's (GL) he's faced are.
> 
> Magic IMO is generally ambient energy from nature, demons, gods, or enchanted artifacts that can be channeled for an extremely broad range of effects (like Captain Marvel). It is spiritual, but most of it is mental as well.
> 
> The difference to me is, I guess that Ki depends more on the body of the user and comes from within while magic simply needs know-how and a source of energy to siphon off from. Although it can vary.



*nods*

There are few people who use Ki right now. I hope the new OYL Green Lantern comic (Where he goes to China and meets up with their super heros) mention Ki's place in the world of magic and physical realm.

At moment, though, I'd simply count it as a low-level style magic (Due to the spiritual aspect of it, especially looking at the idea of a sort of soul power). I'd argue it'd be able to hurt Supes, though not like pure magic, which Black Adam uses in his punches.



> I'm not saying you're wrong or anything, that's just my input on things!
> 
> And my bad for being rude to you earlier.



No, it's understandable. This entire thread got really polarized and frustrating. It's understandable.


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## Orotachi (Apr 14, 2006)

How come will supeman fire his heat vision if vegeto knows exactly superman when to throw? cause he has high senses.(not a *cheap* spider senses)

How will superman reacts if vegeto opposed his IT multiple times. and since its not a speed,its faster than any speed. vegeto will throw multiple punched combo and superman will finally going crazy since he cannot find and predicted where and when vegeto will appeared.


----------



## Id (Apr 14, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> How come will supeman fire his heat vision if vegeto knows exactly superman when to throw? cause he has high senses.(not a *cheap* spider senses)
> 
> How will superman reacts if vegeto opposed his IT multiple times. and since its not a speed,its faster than any speed. vegeto will throw multiple punched combo and superman will finally going crazy since he cannot find and predicted where and when vegeto will appeared.




That would work well, if Superman was to be standing still.

Problem is Superman moves several times the speed of light. 
"IT" is impressive in long distance but in actual combat, how will Vegito know when use combos if he cant lock into Superman.

Also Superman has high senses, (Extremely high senses) and has bin known to have Psychic powers as well.


----------



## Orotachi (Apr 14, 2006)

> That would work well, if Superman was to be standing still.
> 
> Problem is Superman moves several times the speed of light.
> "IT" is impressive in long distance but in actual combat, how will Vegito know when use combos if he cant lock into Superman.
> ...



No it wouldn't work.vegito will figure it out and used IT and then he's suddenly behind superman and "the end".

He moves several times the light speed but IT together with vegito's punch will embedded him surely.

No one in DBZ predicted the IT to whether it will appear next. just what happen to Buuhan vs. vegito. he was shot hard by KI blast even he has a high quality senses of piccolo, mystic gohan and including BUU itself which he senses gohan in the other world's farthest dimension.


----------



## Bullet (Apr 14, 2006)

> Orotachi said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Id (Apr 14, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> No it wouldn't work.vegito will figure it out and used IT and then he's suddenly behind superman and "the end".



Again, that would work fine if, Superman was standing still. Superman can engage in orbital smash, and simply speed blitz Vegito. What can vegito do….”IT” isn’t going to help, by the time he transports to that location, Superman would in a separate location. And if memory serves me right, Vegito has to lock in Superman’s Ki/Chi to use it. 
Does Superman Have a Ki?
And If he did would it to small for Vegito to lock on it or even detect it since, Superman never developed his Ki/chi.?



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> He moves several times the light speed but IT together with vegito's punch will embedded him surely.



Ok, the time it takes Goku to lock on Superman, and use “IT” Goku would have bin in a different spot.



			
				Orotachi said:
			
		

> No one in DBZ predicted the IT to whether it will appear next. just what happen to Buuhan vs. vegito. he was shot hard by KI blast even he has a high quality senses of piccolo, mystic gohan and including BUU itself which he senses gohan in the other world's farthest dimension.



Good point, no one can predict ware Vegito would use IT, I can also say that Vegito would have a hard time predicting when to use IT.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 14, 2006)

WHy the hell did you have to bum such a thread.

Id, i don't think superman moves several times faster than light, or he isnt supposed to, doesnt he move at maximum 99% of light speed.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 14, 2006)

WHy the hell did you have to bum such a thread.

Id, i don't think superman moves several times faster than light, or he isnt supposed to, doesnt he move at maximum 99% of light speed.


----------



## Id (Apr 14, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> WHy the hell did you have to bum such a thread.
> 
> Id, i don't think superman moves several times faster than light, or he isnt supposed to, doesnt he move at maximum 99% of light speed.



Why did I bump the thread? I cuoldnt help my self, Im not here to prove anyone wrong, I only want to add, some more awareness of each others characters that are being over looked.

No one knows how fast Superman really moves. His official bio states he moves vast.

I have posted feats ware he does moves sevral times the speed of light thou.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 14, 2006)

> Why did I bump the thread? I cuoldnt help my self, Im not here to prove anyone wrong, I only want to add, some more awareness of each others characters that are being over looked.
> 
> No one knows how fast Superman really moves. His official bio states he moves vast.
> 
> ...



I was refering to orotachi.

I think he moves slower than light speed, for one he lost certain races to the flash, and im not sure if the speedforce applies to him, but he would exit moving that fast. Or he would destroy the universe.


----------



## Countach (Apr 14, 2006)

it has been seen in one of the dbz moves how much IT can be used in a fight and its a lot, in fact thats the only move goku used and he used it fast and and acuretley.  So goku can use it easily and nonsaluntly wich is faster then superman so it would be iteresting to see what would happen


----------



## Bullet (Apr 14, 2006)

> I think he moves slower than light speed, for one he lost certain races to the flash, and im not sure if the speedforce applies to him, but he would exit moving that fast. Or he would destroy the universe.



He lost a race to the Flash on foot, and even then he still was fast. Superman is faster than light, he can make a trip from Earth to the sun in a seconds. Light takes 8 minutes to get from Earth to the sun, Superman proved to be way faster then that.



> it has been seen in one of the dbz moves how much IT can be used in a fight and its a lot, in fact thats the only move goku used and he used it fast and and acuretley. So goku can use it easily and nonsaluntly wich is faster then superman so it would be iteresting to see what would happen



Movies aren't cannon, they're not very accurate either.


----------



## Gunners (Apr 14, 2006)

> He lost a race to the Flash on foot, and even then he still was fast. Superman is faster than light, he can make a trip from Earth to the sun in a seconds. Light takes 8 minutes to get from Earth to the sun, Superman proved to be way faster then that.



Well what was it you guys said when goku moves light speed, the universe would colaspe.

Superman does not move above light speed, i don't think he has speedforce surronding him to prevent the damage to the universe.


----------



## Countach (Apr 14, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Movies aren't cannon, they're not very accurate either.



This is true but it is the only fight were IT was used in a fight mutlible times


----------



## ZE (Apr 14, 2006)

Vegito is the strongest of these three. I never liked dbgt, and I don’t think superman can match vegito strength.


----------



## Bullet (Apr 14, 2006)

countach882003 said:
			
		

> This is true but it is the only fight were IT was used in a fight mutlible times



That's why it's bad to go by movies, since he's not able to use the technique that fast in the manga or the TV show; it just dismissed everything from the manga/show, for that one movie.



> Vegito is the strongest of these three. I never liked dbgt, and I don?t think superman can match vegito strength.



What strength has Vegeto shown?


----------



## Azure-kun (Apr 14, 2006)

normal sups would get Pwned super Hard. . . Pre crisis Sups could destory the milky way by sneezing though. . . so yah. . .you could only Imagen. . .


----------



## Lord Prime (Apr 14, 2006)

Superman's aura protects the universe from colasping when in high speeds.In Superman/batman comic he was able to send Darkside to the end of the universe in secs.


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## Delta Shell (Apr 14, 2006)

Lord Prime said:
			
		

> Superman's aura protects the universe from colasping when in high speeds.In Superman/batman comic he was able to send Darkside to the end of the universe in secs.



Sorry to bump this but he used a boom tube.


----------



## Azure-kun (Apr 14, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> Sorry to bump this but he used a boom tube.


  what's. . . a Boom Tube.


----------



## Delta Shell (Apr 14, 2006)

In simple terms a teleportation device.



Not to be confused witha a boob tube.


----------



## Orotachi (Apr 15, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman move faster light speed, Vegeto doesn't. IT allows him to move faster than light, *but it does nothing to his actual speed*.



*DENYING*

*EXAGERATED BIAS*

*DOESN'T ACCEPT FEW FACTS* 



> Cell did. Goku even had to trick him in thinking he was going to blow up the planet, so he could hit Cell with the IT and Kamehameha wave. If Cell wanted, he could have easily flew up and hit Goku.



*But not supes* 

And Wrong. Super A17 was the one who predicted it exactly. Reason: he's a special android to figure out certain tecnhiques.



> Superman have even higher sense, he can hear people's hearts beat and hear people call a million miles from him in space.



So if you're just refering that supes can count the number of heart beat and has a high ear senses then the battle between supes and vegito is equivalent to him vs. buuhan 

in which buuhan possess:

kamiccolo- who knows the exact numbers of humans in planet earth and hears everybodies talking from(ie: events down the earth).particularly fatbuu and mr. satans discussions in which fatbuu says that he'll never harm anyone again.plus he knows the exact conditions of there fellows if some of them at near death experience.

Buu. like aboves mentioned. but far worst then kamiccolo since he senses mystic gohan outside the universe! and farthest dimension of the other world!



> What strength has Vegeto shown?



Bias.

*use your logic*

In strenght, KI is equivalent of physical strenght. the more numbers of weight execises and the more numbers of suffering from, makes a saiyan or humans would have more power to gain from KI blast. so who knows, goku or vegito might do all the stunts of supes since he can destroyed stars or planets at his fingers(with blast) or even without ki blast.

have we saw DBZ characters training rather then physical combat? ofcourse not.

Super saiyan at weakest stage(before the androids came) is vary to destroy the entire universe if he wants. since SSJ can destroy Galaxies, the south portion of the universe in filler.(which you most hated and feared of). and that was the weakest stage of SSJ.

And if you ask vegito, then you might as well stand from your seat and cut the walls and run for your own lives.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> That's why it's bad to go by movies, since he's not able to use the technique that fast in the manga or the TV show; it just dismissed everything from the manga/show, for that one movie.


 what he means is, because it shows off the feat the way tis suposed to be used, you cant use it for the fight, cuz you know it gives them an advantage...


----------



## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> what he means is, because it shows off the feat the way tis suposed to be used, you cant use it for the fight, cuz you know it gives them an advantage...



Well since you want to use filler feats, then its only fair we use non canon feats.


Superman can transform to Superman M Super passing Current Superman powers.. He can even put up a psychic arena ware he can alter reality.

The advantage still goes To Superman.


----------



## Bullet (Apr 15, 2006)

> *DENYING*
> 
> *EXAGERATED BIAS*
> 
> *DOESN'T ACCEPT FEW FACTS*



Denying what? Exgeratting what? Doesn't accept what? What have you proven?  



> *But not supes*
> 
> And Wrong. Super A17 was the one who predicted it exactly. Reason: he's a special android to figure out certain tecnhiques.



Super Android 17 was able to hit him out of the technique because he was fast enough, just like Superman is!



> So if you're just refering that supes can count the number of heart beat and has a high ear senses then the battle between supes and vegito is equivalent to him vs. buuhan
> 
> in which buuhan possess:
> 
> ...



You're making no sense, maybe if you gave me the manga volume, I'll look into it my self. 

Anyway's Superman can hear great distance. Superman heres GL (Kyle) about a million miles away from Earth in bed, and he gets there in seconds.

Link removed

Link removed

Link removed



> In strenght, KI is equivalent of physical strenght. the more numbers of weight execises and the more numbers of suffering from, makes a saiyan or humans would have more power to gain from KI blast.



KI can be deflected by Superman's Heat Vision, dodged, or he whould just run right through them. Them throwing energy blasts through out the whole fight, will just make things worse for them, since it's draining energy; so they'll have to fight h2h eventually.



> so who knows, goku or vegito might do all the stunts of supes since he can destroyed stars or planets at his fingers(with blast) or even without ki blast.



But they never pulled anything off like that, even in there highest transformations, the most damage they made with energy blasts, were moutain/city destroying destruction, not planet destroying (unless charging the blast up).



> have we saw DBZ characters training rather then physical combat? ofcourse not.



We have seen DBZ characters using physical combat. Half their fights are going h2h.



> Super saiyan at weakest stage(before the androids came) is vary to destroy the entire universe if he wants. since SSJ can destroy Galaxies, the south portion of the universe in filler.(which you most hated and feared of). and that was the weakest stage of SSJ.



But ssj's can't destroying Galaxies, so this post was pointless.




> And if you ask vegito, then you might as well stand from your seat and cut the walls and run for your own lives.



Didn't get this post,  but Superman takes this battle.



> Well since you want to use filler feats, then its only fair we use non canon feats.
> 
> 
> Superman can transform to Superman M Super passing Current Superman powers.. He can even put up a psychic arena ware he can alter reality.
> ...



I whouldn't even waste my time responding to his post Id, he's very rude and ignorant; it's just not worth it.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well since you want to use filler feats, then its only fair we use non canon feats.
> 
> 
> Superman can transform to Superman M Super passing Current Superman powers.. He can even put up a psychic arena ware he can alter reality.
> ...



nope, because SSJ Gogegta's Soul punisher destroys the soul of the combatant...no sou=no superman...thanks for trying again though...


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## Cytokinesis (Apr 15, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Well since you want to use filler feats, then its only fair we use non canon feats.
> 
> 
> Superman can transform to Superman M Super passing Current Superman powers.. He can even put up a psychic arena ware he can alter reality.
> ...




I am not going to get into the discussion further, but let me just interject.

Superman is almost all non canon.

Seriously just read the comics and you'll see the power discrepency through writers.

Supes normal does things only superman prime should do in one series, yet in another he struggles to keep up with Batman or any other "weak" character.

Of course, if you want to use every single one of superman's powers, lets just use all of the powers people gave Goku in fan fictions.

Now Superman Prime is a different story, but I'm not getting into this further.


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## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> nope, because SSJ Gogegta's Soul punisher destroys the soul of the combatant...no sou=no superman...thanks for trying again though...


No?Superman alters reality ware there is no Ki power from ware Vegito can draw from it. Good point, but better luck on your next debate.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

since when did Supers Prime have reality warping powers? he doesnt...


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

but all DBZ characters look white...


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## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> since when did Supers Prime have reality warping powers? he doesnt...



Hey, you want to use fillers feats, then Its only fair I use non canon feats from Superman.

One of those are reality alter powers.


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

scans baby


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## Gunners (Apr 15, 2006)

No i beleive superman prime can alter reality, besides id will find a scan, beleive me he will.

If superman alters reality then gogeta and vegito would both loose.


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## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

No I?m not going to look for scans anymore. Since they don?t prove anything. 




			
				BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> Scans dont really prove anything. if we are showing what he is capable of, then we must also show that he can be taken out easily too. A superman that can move planets isnt a normal feat of superman, one day he is getting punched through a building and the next he is pushing planets, yet when people want him to win, they ONLY use those feats, and ALWAYS deny his weaker moments, just because they have Scans saying otherwise. Plus, people ask for scans that cannot be produced because writers dont think the same way as the fans.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Countach (Apr 15, 2006)

if scans dont prove a thing then why do words prove them


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

exactly...so quit bitching about Vegettos scans you dumb ass...finally i win again...


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## Countach (Apr 15, 2006)

See the thing is you have no scans for vegetto and all you have done is see the show when he fought buu.  All u are doing is takeing things that never happened and making them fact.  U are spreading false ideas and when people ask for u to post scans you hide behind you idea of scans dont prove anything, im sorry that just doesent cut it, and dont bother to post again unless u have some facts that have something to do with this fight.


----------



## Bullet (Apr 15, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> No i beleive superman prime can alter reality, besides id will find a scan, beleive me he will.
> 
> If superman alters reality then gogeta and vegito would both loose.



Superman haves reality altering powers, he uses the Kryptonian MA (aka Torquasm Vo).


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## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

countach882003 Don’t pay to much attention to “BladeofTheImmortal” he tends to contridict himself. He claims scans don’t serve a purpose or prove anything for that matter….yet he wishes to see the see Superman Reality alter powers.

So yeah he likes to bitch about stupid things, but that’s on him for being a dumb ass.


----------



## Countach (Apr 15, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> countach882003 Don?t pay to much attention to ?BladeofTheImmortal? he tends to contridict himself. He claims scans don?t serve a purpose or prove anything for that matter?.yet he wishes to see the see Superman Reality alter powers.
> 
> So yeah he likes to bitch about stupid things, but that?s on him for being a dumb ass.



Thanks ID, Ill try not to get to worked up about him


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

i wish to see them, because Id believes they are important...but since i swayed his opinion so easily on scans, i guess he doesnt care anymore about them.

He always once fucking scans from me, but hey when he cant give one...scans no longer matter...so, every scan you have ever showed doesnt matter, since scans no longer matter to you Id...


----------



## Id (Apr 15, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i wish to see them, because Id believes they are important...but since i swayed his opinion so easily on scans, i guess he doesnt care anymore about them.
> 
> He always once fucking scans from me, but hey when he cant give one...scans no longer matter...so, every scan you have ever showed doesnt matter, since scans no longer matter to you Id...




No I stated I wont be posting anymore scans on this thread.


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## Countach (Apr 15, 2006)

BladeofTheImmortal said:
			
		

> i wish to see them, because Id believes they are important...but since i swayed his opinion so easily on scans, i guess he doesnt care anymore about them.
> 
> He always once fucking scans from me, but hey when he cant give one...scans no longer matter...so, every scan you have ever showed doesnt matter, since scans no longer matter to you Id...



Do u know what sarcasm is?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

nope, he always seems serious...so i took him seriously...


----------



## Gunners (Apr 15, 2006)

> Superman haves reality altering powers, he uses the Kryptonian MA (aka Torquasm Vo).



I admitted that  i wasn't denying Id, and i thought he would bring up the scans since i know he has them, i know what type of person he is, it is somewhat funny.

He states the character to do something far out, the person will be saying shit like no, i want scans. Then up he comes with about 15 pictures.

Anyway, i really dont care about this thread anymore, does anyone know when teen titans is comming out, i think it got delayed two weeks.


----------



## Countach (Apr 15, 2006)

they havent had a new episode in months


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## BladeofTheChad (Apr 15, 2006)

no clue...but i want to see the new Flash...i hope he isnt drastically underpowered now...


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## Orotachi (Apr 16, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Super Android 17 was able to hit him out of the technique because he was fast enough, just like Superman is!


Is that what i discuss about?

You should check your eyes mate.(thats why i said your Denying) i clearly said that IT was 

enable to figured out by Super A17.



> You're making no sense, maybe if you gave me the manga volume, I'll look into it my
> 
> self.
> 
> ...



Just what i said. goku doesn't need to used his ears and eyes just to fight.

Popo train him hard. not to depended on his eyes, not depending on his ears.

Vegito will feel the punch right before it comes on him.



> But they never pulled anything off like that, even in there highest transformations,
> 
> the most damage they made with energy blasts, were moutain/city destroying destruction,
> 
> ...


*Lame facts* 

-Because you're highly depending on what you see.

*You're left behind*

-Read above. (its vegeto what we've forum.)


DBZ characters can destroyed planets. since vegeta came. no feats but sure they could.(ie: vegeta vs. Goku)


Doesn't make sense if they pull something or not.is that they're mission?

and about destroying galaxies. yeah its filler.


----------



## ANBU_assassin (May 1, 2006)

WTF wrong with u ppl!!! JUST SSJ4 goku is strong enogu to beat superman, but i dontl know about prime !!


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## Gunners (May 1, 2006)

Soul destroyer would out superman prime, he has a soul right?


----------



## Bullet (May 1, 2006)

> Just what i said. goku doesn't need to used his ears and eyes just to fight.
> 
> Popo train him hard. not to depended on his eyes, not depending on his ears.
> 
> Vegito will feel the punch right before it comes on him.



And Vegito will still get knocked out by Superman, since he does need his ears and eyes if he want to stand a better chance of losing!



> Is that what i discuss about?
> 
> You should check your eyes mate.(thats why i said your Denying) i clearly said that IT was
> 
> enable to figured out by Super A17.



It whouldn't matter anyways, IT whould be of little help!


----------



## Comic Book Guy (May 1, 2006)

Jeez. . . this thread is almost as violent as the Vegito vs. Vegito one. . .

And DBGT is counted in this, despite it not being canon? Different than the other thread indeed.


----------



## Bullet (May 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Jeez. . . this thread is almost as violent as the Vegito vs. Vegito one. . .
> 
> And DBGT is counted in this, despite it not being canon? Different than the other thread indeed.



Well the thread starter is using both DBZ Vegito and DBGT ssj4 Gogeta, so I guess people can pick who ever they want between the two for this battle.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (May 1, 2006)

Well, since it's Superman Prime against the two most powerful warriors of their respective DB eras, the universe obviously loses.


----------



## Gambitz (May 1, 2006)

> Well, since it's Superman Prime against the two most powerful warriors of their respective DB eras, the universe obviously loses.


So true lol


----------



## Azure-kun (May 1, 2006)

Gogeta is over rated. . .


----------



## Orotachi (May 3, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> And Vegito will still get knocked out by Superman, since he does need his ears and eyes if he want to stand a better chance of losing!


*Sigh* you don't understand. Vegeto has the advantage on that sense department 

Keep that on your mind that vegeto or any DBZ characters fighting with that kind of sense. it would be alot of easier for vegeto to fight against that kind of defender.



> It whouldn't matter anyways, IT whould be of little help!



Yeah but:

Vegito = IT + Punch and kick. or IT + erased supes eyes and scream on his ear drum  Equals no sense. 

How can he fight?

supes comes, Goku senses it! and dodged it.(using IT)
Supes asking, where did he go? then another hitted from his facial features. 

Remember, we haven't seen ALOT of his brute features against BUU(he's totally not serious). its just the same as example of the fight between Zoro and Mihawk. and probably we saw him playing BUU's features.

SSJ/SSJ4 Gogeta = IT + soul punisher,IT + soul punisher,IT + soul punisher,IT + soul punisher. is that what you want?


----------



## Bullet (May 3, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> *Sigh* you don't understand. Vegeto has the advantage on that sense department
> 
> Keep that on your mind that vegeto or any DBZ characters fighting with that kind of sense. it would be alot of easier for vegeto to fight against that kind of defender.
> 
> ...



Superman's senses (all of them), are greater than any of the DBZ/GT characters, as I've already proven. IT isn't going in a fight, this has been proven plenty of times. Vegeto will just be wasting energy, and will be setting himself up for a punch to the face.

This is how useless IT whould be in battle. SSJ4 Goku tries to teleport Baby to King Kai's planet, but was quickly stoped (was smacked out of it).

here

Here it is again being easily stoped by Nova Shinron.

here

And again by Super 17.

here

IT whould be useless against Superman (who's also fought against being that teleport, so this won't be his first). He will be able to hear and see Vegito even if he decides to try and use it.

Superman feats >>>> Vegito's feats.


----------



## Orotachi (May 3, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> Superman's senses (all of them), are greater than any of the DBZ/GT characters, as I've already proven. IT isn't going in a fight, this has been proven plenty of times. Vegeto will just be wasting energy, and will be setting himself up for a punch to the face.


Give example of how a 5th senses could over come a sensory power? 5th senses can be trick so as the eyes and ears.


> This is how useless IT whould be in battle. SSJ4 Goku tries to teleport Baby to King Kai's planet, but was quickly stoped (was smacked out of it).
> 
> here
> 
> ...


Well thank you very much for that clip. 

Anyways, Funny isn't it? SSJ4 goku got careless there. AND infact, you're getting too far from my point. watch the clip again, its totally different from sending opponents 
from other world than sending your own self behind the opponent instantly.

Super A17, remembered and overcome the technique which usually done against him.

And as the filler GT include with this thread, i would also include Broly who destryoed the galaxies. and that is the weakest version of a SSJ.



> IT whould be useless against Superman (who's also fought against being that teleport, so this won't be his first). He will be able to hear and see Vegito even if he decides to try and use it.
> 
> Superman feats >>>> Vegito's feats.



I think you didn't perceive what i'm saying here.


> Yeah but:
> 
> *Vegito = IT + Punch and kick. or IT + erased supes eyes and scream loud on his ear drum Equals no sense.
> 
> ...



The one who's been highlighted above was very important to took down an opponents weaknessess.

Also keep that on your mind that it was just only and extreme hear and eye sense. read above on how it is going to took down.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 3, 2006)

On IT:

Your description of its use is completely away from what Goku has used it for before. If he could just use IT in a fight like that, how could he NOT beat Cell, because he obviously has a Speed Advantage with it.

Fact is, IT takes a few seconds to use. It's a techinque, requires both acquiring a target and locking onto it, which is why you never see it used more than a special trick against Cell in the series. Trying to use it in combat would mean he'd have to lock onto the ki every time, put his fingers up to his head, and then actually complete the technique, which would take more time than simply moving.

Not only that, but he can't come out IT with a punch or a kick. He's never done that before; he's only ever come out of IT the way he went in, which normally means he has his fingers up to his head and he's towing a Kamehameha with him or a person. It really can't be used to strike someone, or he'd probably have already done it once before.

And how the hell will he 'erase' Superman's eyes? That doesn't even make sense.


----------



## Orotachi (May 4, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> On IT:
> 
> Your description of its use is completely away from what Goku has used it for before. If he could just use IT in a fight like that, how could he NOT beat Cell, because he obviously has a Speed Advantage with it.
> 
> ...



Very nice but, he'd done it before against pykon in the other world.(but it was only a kamehameha) and talking to its powerlevel. its specified as a galaxy destroyer. compared to broly.anyways thats filler.

Try also to considered that Vegito has an astonishing speed and strenght in which he could powerless broly. perhaps, thats not all his best when we saw him.

And we have gogeta who has soul punisher. IT + soul punisher.


> And how the hell will he 'erase' Superman's eyes? That doesn't even make sense.



*Pierce his eyes*

IT then...
-By his Fingers?, By his KI Blast? etc...


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 4, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> Very nice but, he'd done it before against pykon in the other world.(but it was only a kamehameha) and talking to its powerlevel. its specified as a galaxy destroyer. compared to broly.anyways thats filler.
> 
> Try also to considered that Vegito has an astonishing speed and strenght in which he could powerless broly. perhaps, thats not all his best when we saw him.
> 
> And we have gogeta who has soul punisher. IT + soul punisher.



Eh, is that dub or no? I don't think anything has qualified as a 'galaxy destroyer', even in the Japanese Anime.

Now, the Soul Punisher... I'm not sure. They were basically using that against a being of pure evil, so I wonder if it was like a special technique one can only use on evil people. It might work... it might not. Again, Supes is vulnerable to magic, so I don't know if that'd destroy him or not.



> *Pierce his eyes*
> 
> IT then...
> -By his Fingers?, By his KI Blast? etc...



Uh... yeah. He's opened up his eyes in the sun before, so I doubt he'll be able to 'erase his eyes'. Meanwhile, we have Supes, who can lobotomize someone by putting his heat vision through their eyes. I'd give Superman the advantage there.


----------



## Orotachi (May 4, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Eh, is that dub or no? I don't think anything has qualified as a 'galaxy destroyer', even in the Japanese Anime.


*It was a MOVIE regarding broly who destroyed the south galaxy* 


And as for continuity sake, vegito will be over powered.since that movie is right before the androids came.

In addition. there are some anime characters such as yaiba's two united sword(sword of thunder devil wind), who can actually stated and featured that it can destroyed the entire galaxy in one shot.


> Now, the Soul Punisher... I'm not sure. They were basically using that against a being of pure evil, so I wonder if it was like a special technique one can only use on evil people. It might work... it might not. Again, Supes is vulnerable to magic, so I don't know if that'd destroy him or not.



It's not because he used it against an evil being it wouldnt work against good guys. but it didn't stated in the movie that it was alike with gengkidama. so i conceive Gogeta has the advantage of quick winning.



> Uh... yeah. He's opened up his eyes in the sun before, so I doubt he'll be able to 'erase his eyes'. Meanwhile, we have Supes, who can lobotomize someone by putting his heat vision through their eyes. I'd give Superman the advantage there.


Yeah, heat visions perhaps couldn't destroyed planets or solar system.


----------



## Guy Gardner (May 4, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> *It was a MOVIE regarding broly who destroyed the south galaxy* And as for continuity sake,
> 
> vegito will be over powered.since that movie is right before the androids came.
> 
> In addition. there are some anime characters such as yaiba's two united sword(sword of thunder devil wind), who can actually stated and featured that it can destroyed the entire galaxy in one shot.



Fair enough. Then again, it does require Superman to be in one spot standing around, like Cell was. He doesn't normally allow people to just charge up attacks all willy-nilly, unlike most DBZ villains.



> Yeah, heat visions perhaps couldn't destroyed planets or solar system.



Actually, it could, yes.

And Solar Systems... how do you intend to charge a blast THAT long against Supes? That's not just something you can light off instantly. But whatever.


----------



## Orotachi (May 4, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Fair enough. Then again, it does require Superman to be in one spot standing around, like Cell was. He doesn't normally allow people to just charge up attacks all willy-nilly, unlike most DBZ villains.



The reason is Goku was infront above of cell. but for some IT users, they could try to do this way.

- IT first, then go to kaioh planet, and then he fully chraged his KAMEHAMEHA!
- supes was wondering, where did he go? 
- Goku returns instantly (using IT) and BOOM! 




> Actually, it could, yes.
> 
> And Solar Systems... how do you intend to charge a blast THAT long against Supes? That's not just something you can light off instantly. But whatever.


Anyways, its above mentined.


----------



## Id (Jun 14, 2006)

Hm...would Soul Punisher work on Prime Supes?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 15, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Hm...would Soul Punisher work on Prime Supes?




I doubt it, since:

1. He has a pure soul

2. That attack is non - canon


----------



## Bullet (Jun 15, 2006)

> - IT first, then go to kaioh planet, and then he fully chraged his KAMEHAMEHA!
> - supes was wondering, where did he go?
> - Goku returns instantly (using IT) and BOOM!



That won't work since Goku can't IT to King Kai's planet. Why? Because they're fighting in a neutral universe, so King Kai's or any other DBZ planet won't exsist in DC's.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 15, 2006)

> That attack is non - canon



Superman Prime is not canon either.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jun 15, 2006)

Superman Prime isn't even in this fight.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jun 15, 2006)

In a cafe. Quaint tea they serve (pity, cause I'm for sure am not going to move all the way there to stay).

_Superman Prime is not canon either._

DC One Million was canon. Hourman Million stayed behind and participated with the JLA for awhile.

With Infinite Crisis though, DC One Million is most likely retconned out of canon.

Especially since Booster Gold screwed around in 52. . .


----------



## Phenomenol (Jun 15, 2006)

> DC One Million was canon. Hourman Million stayed behind and participated with the JLA for awhile.



Supes Prime is not canon, That is like Saying Brolly or Gogeta are canon.


----------



## Id (Jun 15, 2006)

Superman  Prime situation is similar to Future Trunks. (I hope that clears up some guessing).


----------



## v_joshi12 (Aug 8, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> Current Superman (The weakest version) Moved 4x the speed of light.
> Superman Prime is a hell of a lot stronger.
> 
> Braking the speed barrier is nothing new.



Current Superman is the strongest version aside from Superman prime because all comic writers decided to continually power him up just like Toriyama kept powering up Goku. For instance, the original Superman was barely faster than a bullet, and Goku was capable of catching one. Currently, Superman DOES NOT travel faster than light unless under extreme circumstances and Goku is FASTER than light because of IT.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 8, 2006)

There's already a topic where it's DBZ warrior (most popular is Goku) vs. post-Crisis Superman.

And I quote Reznor.

"We all moved up to bigger things. Like Super Vegito vs. Superman Prime.

But in all seriousness, post in the "Official Goku vs. Superman" topic by Shika shika boo.


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 8, 2006)

CBG, why even bother? I mean, Phenom or any other stubborn pro-DBZ user is ever going to admit that Supes can beat Goku.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 8, 2006)

_CBG, why even bother?_

Someone has to. I might as well. . .


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 8, 2006)

Isn't purging a more appealing than persuading?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 8, 2006)

Depends on the circumstances.

With the Official Goku vs. Superman topic, this topic should be closed, IMO.


----------



## Nahrootoe (Aug 8, 2006)

Orotachi said:
			
		

> The reason is Goku was infront above of cell. but for some IT users, they could try to do this way.
> 
> - IT first, then go to kaioh planet, and then he fully chraged his KAMEHAMEHA!
> - supes was wondering, where did he go?
> ...


 
LMAO, this is so one-sided, I hope your sarcastic.

By this ridiculous logic, this is what happens:

1.) Superman waves his GL ring.
2.) Gogeta and Vegito say, "WTF?!"
3.) Gogeta and Vegito turn into muffins.

Do you know what a GL ring does?  The Green Lantern force is arguably one of the strongest powers in the universe.  A wielder of a GL ring can do anything, limited only to his willpower.

Given the Superman Prime spent 15000 years in the core of a sun and has willpower + a lot, he'd simply smack them around with his ring.

Pre-Crisis Superman was as strong as he is just with 30 or 40 years absorbing the sun's rays, add that to 15000 years of absorbing the sun's power INSIDE the sun.  You realize that the DC writers put Superman Prime as strong as *Parallax* and *Ion*, right?  Oh wait, I'm sorry for mentioning names you have to look up.

Gogeta and Vegito are going to blind him?  He fought off Joker with 99% of Mr. Myxzptlk's powers.  I hope you know who he is, right?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 8, 2006)

To put him in the league with Ion? That's debatable, IMO.

Wasn't Kyle as Ion part of the very fabric of the universe?


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Aug 8, 2006)

listen, Goku has just as good of a chance to kill Supes as Supes does to kill Goku...thats the end of it...


----------



## Pinkaugust (Aug 8, 2006)

oh well, superman can probably not withstand both Gogeta SSJ4 OR Vegetto.. They are immensely strong, and their powers are yet to be confirmed.

Although supes still rock, I won't argue with that...


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 8, 2006)

I doubt either Vegito or Gogeta could withstand being in the core of a sun, let alone for several millenia.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Aug 8, 2006)

meh, they survived Lava at Level 1, im guessing something about 1000X stronger could survive the sun...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 8, 2006)

You do realize, of course that:

A. There is no proof of them being "1000 times stronger" or any clear multiple like that.

B. The total energy of the sun is so ridiculously higher than a pool of lava it's hardly comparable.


----------



## BladeofTheChad (Aug 8, 2006)

well, 1000 times is about the best bet you can get...


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 8, 2006)

Not really, any figure, whether it's 2 times, 10 times, 1000 times, or 1000000 times, are all equally meaningless, since they were never officially stated and are thus just pulled out of your ass.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 8, 2006)

People, can we let this topic die? If was, until someone brought it back.

That's what the other topic was set up for.


----------



## DBZthenNaruto2 (Aug 10, 2006)

Superman loses... IMO


----------



## Aruarian (Aug 10, 2006)

DBZthenNaruto2 said:
			
		

> Superman loses... IMO


Shut           up.


----------



## Ram (Aug 10, 2006)

I think that Vegito and Gogeta have more destructive power, but Superman has got more endurance, he's gonna be incredibly hard to take down.
I'm gonna go for Superman :/


----------



## Riley (Aug 17, 2006)

Superman prime wins.

GAME OVER


----------



## Vicious (Oct 3, 2006)

> GAME OVER


continue yes or no?


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

this thread is retarded, vegito or gogeto stand alone whoops supes ass.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

Sigh. . . one DBZ vs. Superman thread is enough. . .


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> We go by feats, in this debate to declare a winner. And wild assumptions are not feats.



Sorry the DBZ world doesnt use "feats" to determine character strength so your point is moot. You know the Z universe actually uses "fighting" to determine whose stronger, not who can juggle the moon and slap a blackhole or whatever.


----------



## Vicious (Oct 4, 2006)

if this thread doesnt die.. than im going to have to bring back that "vegito vs vegito thread *threat*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

This is almost as bad as reviving the Vegito vs. Vegito thread. . .



> Sorry the DBZ world doesnt use "feats" to determine character strength so your point is moot. You know the Z universe actually uses "fighting" to determine whose stronger, not who can juggle the moon and slap a blackhole or whatever.



In a fight, you utilize what you are able and capable of.

You're a trained martial artist? That's great.

I conveniently have an AK-47.

Why would anyone dumb themselves down to fight another opponent on their terms? You really think a robber will discard his gun and fight you mano-a-mano? No. He'll use what he'll have, which happens to be more effective than what you're capable of.


----------



## Jin22 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> This is almost as bad as reviving the Vegito vs. Vegito thread. . .


And you're contributing!!


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Id said:
			
		

> That would work well, if Superman was to be standing still.
> 
> Problem is Superman moves several times the speed of light.
> "IT" is impressive in long distance but in actual combat, how will Vegito know when use combos if he cant lock into Superman.
> ...




show me a scan in a fight where superman is moving several times the speed of light as you claim?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> show me a scan in a fight where superman is moving several times the speed of light as you claim?



Id's Internet has been down for two months. He can only post here when he's at work.

And even then, that's around once per 10 days.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> This is almost as bad as reviving the Vegito vs. Vegito thread. . .
> 
> 
> 
> ...




how is utilizing the suppose ability to juggle a planet determine an outcome of a fight? 

How does closing a blackhold predicate how you do in a fight?

*grabs popcorn*


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> how is utilizing the suppose ability to juggle a planet determine an outcome of a fight?



Strength (and arguable manipulation of bio-electric field).



> How does closing a blackhold predicate how you do in a fight?



Durability, strength.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Id's Internet has been down for two months. He can only post here when he's at work.
> 
> And even then, that's around once per 10 days.



Okay, you do it im sure u have the scan, please post it.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Strength (and arguable manipulation of bio-electric field).
> 
> 
> *what good is this "Strength" if you cant hit your opponent. Superman would never be able to hit gogeto or vegetto are you guys insane.*
> ...



durability how? Is the blackhole damaging him or something? He can breathe in space fine.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> Okay, you do it im sure u have the scan, please post it.



The hell? A scan of Id stating that his Internet is down?



> what good is this "Strength" if you cant hit your opponent. Superman would never be able to hit gogeto or vegetto are you guys insane.



Did you even read which Superman is in used as Id stated in the first post?



> durability how? Is the blackhole damaging him or something?



Do you even know how destructive a black hole is?

Seriously, can you get worse than your "planets float in space" ignorance?



> He can breathe in space fine.



THERE'S NO AIR IN SPACE.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Bullet said:
			
		

> KI can be deflected by Superman's Heat Vision, dodged, or he whould just run right through them. Them throwing energy blasts through out the whole fight, will just make things worse for them, since it's draining energy; so they'll have to fight h2h eventually.



Bullshit, i would pay to see superman try and counter goku's or any other chars energy attack, they would deflect that shit and put his eyes out and destroy him. I never seen superman's heat vision vs something of a kamehameha before.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> Bullshit, i would pay to see superman try and counter goku's or any other chars energy attack, they would deflect that shit and put his eyes out and destroy him. I never seen superman's heat vision vs something of a kamehameha before.



Prime has the GL ring on his person though.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> The hell? A scan of Id stating that his Internet is down?
> 
> 
> *no a scan of superman moving a few million time faster than light in a fight.*
> ...



superman has lungs, and has no problem in space.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Prime has the GL ring on his person though.




Superman Prime has never even fought before only pics i seen of him was when he was gold and marrying some woman. And this thread clearly states superman not superman prime.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> no a scan of superman moving a few million time faster than light in a fight.



And DB warriors can?



> why dont you tell me



You're freaking kidding me. . . black hole? Gravity forces strong enough to suck in _light_?



> can you get any worse than following me around the boards quoting my every post?



Whenever you decide to make less sense.



> superman has lungs, and has no problem in space.



He received training from Mongul to process oxygen more efficiently so that he can remain in space for even longer periods of time than before.



			
				jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Superman Prime has never even fought before only pics i seen of him was when he was gold and marrying some woman. And this thread clearly states superman not superman prime.



Read post #1.



			
				Id said:
			
		

> Assuming it is possible to have Vegito and Gogeta are separate personas do they stand a chance against non other than *Superman Prime*?


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And DB warriors can?
> 
> 
> *stop avoiding my question either post the scans or shududp about it*
> ...




Thankyou, thats all i wanted to know. So he cant just be in space all the time he has a time limit?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Oct 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Thankyou, thats all i wanted to know. So he cant just be in space all the time he has a time limit?



Anwser the question, jplaya2023


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> stop avoiding my question either post the scans or shududp about it



You're the one who placed that burden on me, a page earlier. All I do was say that Id is unable to post, and you saddle the burden on me.

Double-standard. When has the DB fighters achieve lightspeed?



> thats nice still has no showing in a fight



Can they produce destructive forces more powerful than a black hole?



> whenever you decide to stop stalking me, stalker



Whenever you finally make correct sense.



> Thankyou, thats all i wanted to know. So he cant just be in space all the time he has a time limit?



Depends on his solar energy reserves. Superman can theoretically be solely nourished through sheer sunlight alone.


----------



## SoulTaker (Oct 4, 2006)

Wait,this is Superman Prime?Superman with a GL ring and having been in the sun for 15,000 years so his abilities are extremely jacked up.His stregnth and speed are leagues upon his two oponents,and the fact that he has a GL ring helps so much more.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> Wait,this is Superman Prime?Superman with a GL ring and having been in the sun for 15,000 years so his abilities are extremely jacked up.His stregnth and speed are leagues upon his two oponents,and the fact that he has a GL ring helps so much more.



And freaking willpower. Scouring the ends of the universe for millenia, and then just sitting in the sun for another 15 millenia? All to take out Solaris eventual return back to villainly near a million months in the future?

Freaking willpower. Hal would be proud.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> You're the one who placed that burden on me, a page earlier. All I do was say that Id is unable to post, and you saddle the burden on me.
> 
> Double-standard. When has the DB fighters achieve lightspeed?
> 
> ...



what do you mean by nourished? make him hold his breath longer?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> So your not going to post scans, all i needed to know.



Can you for DBZ?



> AT never fully explains their powers but i say yes, and of course you'll disagree but thats ok



Of course I disagree. We need WAY MORE than your word.



> you stop stalking me = you stop reading my post = you dont care what sense i make = because your not reading my post



Can't. Not going to risk you possibly misleading new posters with your mis-knowledge.



> what do you mean by nourished? make him hold his breath longer?



You're kidding me. You don't know what "nourish" means?


----------



## yuhun (Oct 4, 2006)

No contest, Gogeta


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Can you for DBZ?
> 
> 
> *concession accepted*
> ...



of course i do, i just fail to see how sunlight makes him breathe longer in space, there's something im missing


----------



## SoulTaker (Oct 4, 2006)

If the DBZers had the force of a black hole every single one of their attacks would be planet busting.

And to fully understand how strong Superman Prime is,our post-crisis Supes was able to drag War World across the galaxy while it had it's FTL engines powered in the direction opposite of Superman.Superman was sun dipped for  what a couple of moments,Superman Prime has been sundipped for 15,000 years.He has a GL ring and perhaps the greatest will power of any GL ever created.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> concession accepted



Answer the question.



> same with you



Understandable. Though, yours is very shaky -- for someone ruthlessly believing Goku > Batman/Spider-Man/Ryu > fiction.



> no its not like you cant, you wont.



Whenever you start making correct sense. It's that easy. You can start by admitting that Goku, Batman, Spider-Man, and Ryu are NOT above fiction.



> of course i do, i just fail to see how sunlight makes him breathe longer in space, there's something im missing



His body absorbs, stores, and processes solar energy. Compare it to us consuming food for sustenance.


----------



## SoulTaker (Oct 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> of course i do, i just fail to see how sunlight makes him breathe longer in space, there's something im missing



He didn't have a problem scouring the ends of the universe for a millenia,or staying in the sun for 15,000 years.


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> If the DBZers had the force of a black hole every single one of their attacks would be planet busting.
> 
> 
> *They have the ability to raise their PL's at will and wouldnt want to damage the earth like that possibly destroy it.*
> ...



i just wanna see scans of him fighting. Do you have any


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Answer the question.
> 
> 
> *I asked you first.*
> ...



alright, we'll go with that


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> They have the ability to raise their PL's at will and wouldnt want to damage the earth like that possibly destroy it.



Earth shook, yes, but held when they powered up.



> I asked you first.



And I would, if I were not at a computer terminal at UTSC.



> Its my belief so because you disagree doesnt mean im going to change



You do know, belief doesn't equal reality.

A guy believes a car crashing into him won't kill him. Is he right?

Do you even get the point?



> No, you dont beleive they are, so you want others to follow your beliefs. No thankyou.



No, I know they aren't above fiction.

And not beliefs. FACT.

You don't believe me, go ask DC writers and Marvel writers themselves via e-mail. I guarantee you at least one of them will look at the question or the statement you put through in disbelief and the another laughing at the notion of Batman and Spider-Man being the most powerful character in their respective universes.

Although first, they're going to humour you at first, depending on who responds.


----------



## Vicious (Oct 4, 2006)

well ssj4 gogeta is completely invulnerable to any attack well thats wat i heard!thats why ssj4 gogeta>>vegito. but im iffy with superman prime hes pretty damn charged up by the sun for 15,000 yrs ,im pretty sure hes alot more powerful now.?!


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Earth shook, yes, but held when they powered up.
> 
> 
> *and if they can power up and shake the earth, image how much damage they can do by actually using that power and striking the earth.*
> ...



perhaps but they only care that im spening $$$ reading their work.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> well ssj4 gogeta is completely invulnerable to any attack well thats wat i heard!thats why ssj4 gogeta>>vegito. but im iffy with superman prime hes pretty damn charged up by the sun for 15,000 yrs ,im pretty sure hes alot more powerful now.?!



15,000 years of super sun-dipping (yes, it was a Super Sun), hundreds of millenias worth of experience, vast amount of willpower, vastly increased powers, and GL ring.


----------



## SoulTaker (Oct 4, 2006)

jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> i just wanna see scans of him fighting. Do you have any



I myself have none,never liked SMP that much,too fucking overpowered.I could however dig up that Sundipped Superman feat for you,because that would most likely be a very low showing for SMP.



			
				jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> Its my belief so because you disagree doesnt mean im going to change



It is your belief,but you choose to impose it as fact when you come into threads and speak about said characters invincibility in your eyes.By the way you're belief is wrong because alone Dark Schiender(sp?)/Ryoko with 3 Gems/ Tenchi Masaki/ Z/Gold Saints would take on all of those characters and beat them.



			
				jplaya2023 said:
			
		

> No, you dont beleive they are, so you want others to follow your beliefs. No thankyou.



CBG doesn't have to make anyone believe anything,and doesn't have people following him.Most people on these boards just know that there are stronger characters in fiction that the ones you think are the strongest,and it really isn't a belief that there are stronger characters it's a known fact.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> and if they can power up and shake the earth, image how much damage they can do by actually using that power and striking the earth.



Physical blow?



> I'll be waiting



*shrugs*



> for u no for me yes. End of story



And the guy who believes that the car won't kill him survives?

I apologize, but that's just really immature and pathetic.



> i dont know or care irrelevant to my point



Yes, it is.

The guy BELIEVED the car won't kill him if it crashed into him.

REALITY says otherwise, and the guy is severely hurt, if not dying, from the crash.

BELIEFS DO *NOT[/i] EQUAL TO REALITY.




			u dont get the point that i dont care what u think or anyone else i believe in me.
		
Click to expand...


Belief does not override reality.




			perhaps but they only care that im spening $$$ reading their work.
		
Click to expand...


What money? I doubt you actually have more than $50 worth of actual comics that are mainstream.*


----------



## jplaya2023 (Oct 4, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Physical blow?
> 
> *yes*
> 
> ...




if thats what u say


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Oct 4, 2006)

> yes



Prove it?

Scan?



> *shoulder leans*



Hmm?



> so everytime someone has been hit by a car they died?



Very few would survive. But if belief > reality, why didn't to believe and simply come out unscathed?



> no thats your opinion



Most people would agree with me. Wake up to the real world, would you?



> not everyone who gets hit by a car died, genuis



Ever recognize an analogy?



> if thats what u say



Well, you had only read more than 20 comics. The majority of them being related to non-canon crossovers and Elseworlds and alternate realities.


----------



## The Sentry (Oct 4, 2006)

Goku will win


----------



## Endless Mike (Oct 5, 2006)

Sarutobi700 said:
			
		

> Goku will win



How can he win if he's not even in the fight?


----------



## The Sentry (Oct 5, 2006)

Gogeta will win


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## Apocalypes (Oct 6, 2006)

I dotn read like the comics and stuff but Vegeto or ssj 4 gogeta can blow up the planet with a lift of their fingers............ and can survive in space. I doubt Superman can stand against that........


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## Deleted member 45015 (Oct 7, 2006)

> I had this discussion about 8 years ago concerning SSJ4 Gogeta vs. Superman. A good point that was brought up is that Gogeta is a magical being. He summons items out of thin air and like his opponent Evil Shenlong, can pretty much manipulate space/time. One of Supermans weaknesses is magic. If Gogeta were to take the fight seriously (he tends to goof around too much), he has the potential of beating Superman.



Well Gogeta against Janemba didn't goof around...he murdered him in 30 seconds flat....

Either way I agree that if Gogeta can do some magical mumbo jumbo there's a chance, but frankly I like DBZ but Superman Prime - in my experience on this Battledome - cannot be beaten by these two.

Sad but true I fear.


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## TRTrunks (Oct 7, 2006)

Noo would beat the s*%# out of Superman, Then Gogeta ssj4 could destroy the whole Justice League... So DBZ beats Marvel.. big time!


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## SoulTaker (Oct 7, 2006)

TRTrunks said:
			
		

> Noo would beat the s*%# out of Superman, Then Gogeta ssj4 could destroy the whole Justice League... So DBZ beats Marvel.. big time!



Superman and the JLA are not Marvel they're DC,and this is Superman Prime,not just the normal Superman.Maybe you should get educated on comics before churning out posts that show your lack of knowledge.


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## Endless Mike (Oct 7, 2006)

Apocalypes said:
			
		

> *I dotn read like the comics and stuff* but Vegeto or ssj 4 gogeta can blow up the planet with a lift of their fingers............ and can survive in space. I doubt Superman can stand against that........



So in other words, you have no idea what the fuck you're talking about.


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## Comic Book Guy (Oct 7, 2006)

> Noo would beat the s*%# out of Superman, Then Gogeta ssj4 could destroy the whole Justice League... So DBZ beats Marvel.. big time!



You've got to be kidding me.

Superman's from DC.

Marvel has Spider-Man, Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Avengers.


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## Tazmo? (Oct 8, 2006)

Im a DBZTard myself but seeing some of the examples in here "SMP can move at the speed of light etc." Im going to say SMP has this. The only time someone in the DBZverse can go at the speed of light is Instant Transmission.


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## Birkin (May 24, 2007)

I call this a great opportunity. :33333333333


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## The Internet (May 24, 2007)

This thread is officially awesome.


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## ∅ (May 24, 2007)

Is that some kind of rape picture?

Edit:
- Refering to Goku's


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## mystictrunks (May 24, 2007)

Damn this is classic.

Vegito dominates. Ki Blast > Gogetha's Ki Blast > Rainbow Vision.


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## Green Lantern (May 25, 2007)

What blasphemy is this?

(Maybe I should sticky this so that all the newcomers can have a little look at OB history...)


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