# Ironman vs Luke Skywalker



## EnigmaJ (Sep 5, 2011)

Current Ironman from Marvel vs Current Luke Skywalker from Star Wars

Who wins? If Luke stomps, then does Ironman have any suits capable of taking him down?


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## Shooting burst stream (Sep 5, 2011)

Unless Ironman has a suit that makes him resistant to mental attacks, he is going to be mindfucked horribly.


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## Orochibuto (Sep 5, 2011)

The only way Ironman can win is if we put the version that has the reality gem here, and even it is a big if, since he will have to withstand tremendous mindfuck until he is able to use it and using the reality gem without the rest of the gauntlet may backfire.


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## Skywalker (Sep 5, 2011)

Ironman is going to get a Lightsaber teleported into his skull.


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## Banhammer (Sep 5, 2011)

Shooting burst stream said:


> Unless Ironman has a suit that makes him resistant to mental attacks, he is going to be mindfucked horribly.



He does actually

He's still gonna be beat up pretty bad unless you give him prep


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Skywalker said:


> Ironman is going to get a Lightsaber teleported into his skull.



Jedi's can do that?


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 5, 2011)

Yes, they can.


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## Bender (Sep 5, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Yes, they can.



(Not that I don't believe you) you got a scan of this?


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## Light Bringer (Sep 5, 2011)




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## Thor (Sep 5, 2011)

Shooting burst stream said:


> Unless Ironman has a suit that makes him resistant to mental attacks, he is going to be mindfucked horribly.



He does. 

Ironman stomps.


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## Es (Sep 5, 2011)

Luke could still use Fold Space to win though


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## Banhammer (Sep 5, 2011)

yeah it's kinda hard to beat that

Although with prep is not impossible


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## Thor (Sep 5, 2011)

Ironman could use his vastly superior speed to decapitate Luke before he could even think.


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## Es (Sep 5, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> yeah it's kinda hard to beat that
> 
> Although with prep is not impossible


True but does the OP allow it?


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## Jet Pistol (Sep 5, 2011)

Like the others said without prep poor Tony gets mindfucked.


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## Fang (Sep 5, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> yeah it's kinda hard to beat that
> 
> Although with prep is not impossible



Luke's nephew played ping-pong with turbolasers (confirmed lightspeed multi-megaton yield weapons) from a capital ship

Luke played ping-pong with him


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## Glued (Sep 5, 2011)

Unless Tony gets the Reality Gem, Luke stomps him.


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## Ky Hakubi (Sep 6, 2011)

Any chance a lightsaber can deflect Stark's repulsors? Not that it's going to help his case any. I was just curious.

Regardless, even if Ironman can resist the mindfuck what's from stopping Luke from Force crushing his suit like a tin can?


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## Platinum (Sep 6, 2011)

Yeah Ironman is pretty boned without the reality gem.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Ironman who can fight Worthy, Thor, Sentry will lose to Luke. 

1 repulsor blast set at 80% is enough to vaporise Luke.


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## Nevermind (Sep 6, 2011)

Wait a minute can't Iron Man just nuke the entire area at the start of the fight?


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Ironman who can fight Worthy, Thor, Sentry will lose to Luke.
> 
> 1 repulsor blast set at 80% is enough to vaporise Luke.



Don't make it too obvious for them. No one has even mentioned Tony's insane regen either which would make him dying from being cut by a lightsaber even more laughable


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Wait a minute can't Iron Man just nuke the entire area at the start of the fight?



He can but, the FORCE!!!



Matta Clatta said:


> Don't make it too obvious for them. No one has even mentioned Tony's insane regen either which would make him dying from being cut by a lightsaber even more laughable



Exactly. Tony's regen is pretty potent. He can regenerate his brain from half destruction, regen lost limbs and organs.

NuWar Machine armor survived a nuke point blank. NuWar Machine armor is the lite version of Tony's new armor. Unless Luke can release the force of a megaton nuke he's not even breaching Iron Man's armor.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Oh yeah and Iron Man counters fold space with Ghost tech. GG Luke.

This is just ignoring the fact that Iron Man would decapitate Luke before he can even think. Being able to keep up with Thor flying to the moon, and Sentry flying to the sun. His old armor was fast enough to keep up with PHOTON/Captain Marvel/Monica Rambue, and fast enough to outmanuever LIGHTMASTERS blasts. Spiderman would be a better match up for Luke.


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## Glued (Sep 6, 2011)

To Fang is there anyway Luke can counter regeneration?

To Thor, what is the highest level of telepathy that Tony has resisted?



Thor said:


> Oh yeah and Iron Man counters fold space with Ghost tech. GG Luke.
> 
> This is just ignoring the fact that Iron Man would decapitate Luke before he can even think. Being able to keep up with Thor flying to the moon, and Sentry flying to the sun. His old armor was fast enough to keep up with PHOTON/Captain Marvel/Monica Rambue, and fast enough to outmanuever LIGHTMASTERS blasts. Spiderman would be a better match up for Luke.



Thor there is much that the mods have done to maintain peace on this forum. Thanks to your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these once peaceful messageboards to the horror of Flamewars. You are a vain, greed, cruel boy. And were I the admin, I would cast you out.

Seriously dude, your making comic book fans look bad.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> To Thor, what is the highest level of telepathy that Tony has resisted?



Emma Frost and Xavier.




> Thor there is much that the mods have done to maintain peace on this forum. Thanks to your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these once peaceful messageboards to the horror of Flamewars. You are a vain, greed, cruel boy. And were I the admin, I would cast you out.
> 
> Seriously dude, your making comic book fans look bad.



Stupidity? It's stupid to think Luke Skywalker has a chance when he is vastly outclassed in Strength, Power, Speed, Intelligence and Versatility.

What did I say in my quote that was wrong Ben Grimm? Did Ironman not keep up with Thor to the moon? Did Ironman not keep up with Sentry to the sun? Did Ironman not keep up with Photon who is superluminal in a fight? Did Ironman not outmanuever Lightmasters blasts?


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Ben Grimm said:


> To Fang is there anyway Luke can counter regeneration?



Can Tony regenerate without any brain or his entire head? Fold-Space lets him teleport by ripping through the confines of space-time itself. He can also mind-fuck with telekinesis, a much much weaker Luke was ripping through people's memories and thought processes by rearranging neurons and mental synapses on the fly. 



> Thor there is much that the mods have done to maintain peace on this forum. Thanks to your arrogance and stupidity, you have opened these once peaceful messageboards to the horror of Flamewars. You are a vain, greed, cruel boy. And were I the admin, I would cast you out.
> 
> Seriously dude, your making comic book fans look bad.



He has a hard-on against Star Wars on the same level as Nikushimi, so its pretty apparent no one really cares about his opinion.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Stupidity? It's stupid to think Luke Skywalker has a chance when he is vastly outclassed in Strength, Power, Speed, Intelligence and Versatility.



Because there are no abilities in fiction that compensate for underwhelming physical stats, right, guy?


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

This is what Tony does to Luke. But Luke's not a Worthy on Thor's level so he dies.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Bleeding Edge vs a mad Thor. GG Luke


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

so there's an armour that protects tony against mindrape and an armour that protects him against fold space teleportation into his skull 

are they the same armour?


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Tony absorbs 2 full power lightning bolts from Thor. Thor's full powered bolts burned Sentry to a crisp multiple times.







Luke has absolutely no chance.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

yeah, that's cool, answer the question


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

No, they aren't, Luc.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

well, iron man needs a bunch of separate armours to guard against every way luke has of instantly killing him, and since he's only wearing one, this seems to have a pretty clear outcome


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man winning is a given. Luke isn't going to be able to get by his regen or even surviving the initial repulsor blast.
Luke mind fucking Tony for a win is even more unlikely since his brain has multiple fail safes to deal with those types of attacks.

Also the notion that he needs a different type of armor to deal with each of Lukes attacks is beyond dated. His bleeding edge armor is superior to most of the older models and its housed in his body so that wouldn't be an issue anyway.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> yeah, that's cool, answer the question



His bleeding edge armor has ghost tech, which will render phasing into his suit useless, the same armor has mental shields that can block him from an Xavier level telepath.


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

>thinks Fold-Space is phasing
>laughing whores.avi


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Iron Man winning is a given. Luke isn't going to be able to get by his regen or even surviving the initial repulsor blast.
> Luke mind fucking Tony for a win is even more unlikely since his brain has multiple fail safes to deal with those types of attacks.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> His bleeding edge armor has ghost tech, which will render phasing into his suit useless, the same armor has mental shields that can block him from an Xavier level telepath.



can i see scans proving it has those two abilities?

also, phasing doesn't equate to fold space. phasing is going out of the touch with this dimensional plane. fold space is teleportation on the same dimensional plane. what guards against phasing will not guard against fold space.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm really interested in this notion that Luke can outreact Iron Man. He has pre cog but his reactions and speed still pail in comparison to the people Iron Man regularly goes up against.

Tony fires a repulsor blast and Luke dies in the AOE.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> I'm really interested in this notion that Luke can outreact Iron Man. He has pre cog but his reactions and speed still pail in comparison to the people Iron Man regularly goes up against.
> 
> Tony fires a repulsor blast and Luke dies in the AOE.



luke can deflect hundreds of blaster bolts with his lightsaber and muck with confirmed lightspeed beams, his reactions really aren't a problem here


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## Nevermind (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> luke can deflect hundreds of blaster bolts with his lightsaber and muck with confirmed lightspeed beams, his reactions really aren't a problem here



Deflecting blaster bolts and beams is something different from surviving an attack that can nuke the entire area. Precog won't help against something like that.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> can i see scans proving it has those two abilities?
> 
> also, phasing doesn't equate to fold space. phasing is going out of the touch with this dimensional plane. fold space is teleportation on the same dimensional plane. what guards against phasing will not guard against fold space.



In New Avenger: Illuminati (look it up your damn self) Professor X strolls in and casually reads Tony's mind to which Tony replies, "Stop reading my mind Charles!", with a stern face. Professor X then bows his head and apologizes. 

He put Ghost Tech on Iron-Man 2.0 aka War Machine, he called the New War Machine a Bleeding Edge (his new armor) lite/prototype. He commented than Iron-Man 2.0 is nearly the same as his Bleeding Edge apart from a slight few asthetic alterations and power consumption.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Nevermind said:


> Deflecting blaster bolts and beams is something different from surviving an attack that can nuke the entire area. Precog won't help against something like that.



nope, what will help against something like that is mindraping his consciousness into psychic mulch, or teleporting a lightsaber into his skull



> In New Avenger: Illuminati (look it up your damn self) Professor X strolls in and casually reads Tony's mind to which Tony replies, "Stop reading my mind Charles!", with a stern face. Professor X then bows his head and apologizes.





did you just try to prove he can resist mindrape by citing an incident when professor x 'casually reads Tony's mind'?

---

in that case, i'll take it as implied that it has ghost tech; which doesn't mean it'll defend against fold space


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> luke can deflect hundreds of blaster bolts with his lightsaber and muck with confirmed lightspeed beams, his reactions really aren't a problem here



Tony's repulsor blast can char off layers of skin of WWH Hulks's body, don't compare it to crappy blaster bolts. So what if he can somehow react to Iron Man. He lacks the power, and strength to even harm him.


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## Nevermind (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> nope, what will help against something like that is mindraping his consciousness into psychic mulch, or teleporting a lightsaber into his skull



But this isn't passive and he has to activate it. Tony moves more than fast enough to just nuke Luke before he can.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Tony's repulsor blast can char off layers of skin of WWH Hulks's body, don't compare it to crappy blaster bolts. So what if he can somehow react to Iron Man. He lacks the power, and strength to even harm him.



which has no bearing on their speed?

also, he can mindrape and/or teleport a lightsaber into his skull and conclusively harm him like that. this has been explained multiple times. stop harping on about power and strength when tony clearly has more of both, because as explained, they're irrelevant


Nevermind said:


> But this isn't passive and he has to activate it. Tony moves more than fast enough to just nuke Luke before he can.



what, he has to _think_, you mean?


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

The Force enhances their reflexes and movement. Jax Pavan's precognition let him react to an actual laser even though he wasn't aware of it and precognition is passively active all the time for any Force-User.

Luke has Shatterpoints, a more advanced precog ability that also lets him use fate to see a target's weakpoints, their strengths, and actions and the possibile outcome of how an action is stopped, or countered. Luke didn't really need "effort" to offensive attack when he casually was telepathically dominating people in different parts of the galaxy in Dark Nest.

Also the speed of thought > movement/reaction speed.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Luke can't mind rape Iron Man if Xavier can't what part of that don't you understand?

Teleport a light saber into his head? . Not before Iron Man decapitates him.

Iron Man's reaction speed. GG Luke


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> did you just try to prove he can resist mindrape by citing an incident when professor x 'casually reads Tony's mind'?
> 
> ---



In his defense, telemetery sensors were outdated on iron man before extremis which outdated by bleeding edge.
To iron man psychic insulation is the equivalent for us of, well, cassette tapes.

It would be like as if Tony made a voice activated armor that also reacted to other people's voices.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Luke can't mind rape Iron Man if Xavier can't what part of that don't you understand?
> 
> Teleport a light saber into his head? . Not before Iron Man decapitates him.



what part of 'proof' don't you understand? you just gave an incident as proof in which xavier _succeeded_ in entering tony's mind, good job. if you want to prove he can't mindrape iron man show some scans


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> The Force enhances their reflexes and movement. Jax Pavan's precognition let him react to an actual laser even though he wasn't aware of it and precognition is passively active all the time for any Force-User.
> 
> *Luke has Shatterpoints, a more advanced precog ability that also lets him use fate to see a target's weakpoints, their strengths, and actions and the possibile outcome of how an action is stopped, or countered; all at the same time.* Luke didn't really need "effort" to offensive attack when he casually was telepathically dominating people in different parts of the galaxy in Dark Nest.
> 
> Also the speed of thought > movement/reaction speed.



dot dot dot

And recently Luke got a power-up from the Codex that made his psychic aura so off the wall that it was physically harming the Lost Tribe of the Sith on their homeworld while Luke was in the Unknown Regions.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

thor, i don't think you get it

what you just did is the equivalent of me claiming luke can deflect blaster bolts then posting



> The stormtrooper raised his rifle and squeezed the trigger. Luke saw the front of the barrel light up, but had only brought his saber up halfway before the bolt burnt through his chest.



or something, as proof

(p.s. this did not actually ever happen)


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man's reaction speed. GG Luke


Iron Man also has a spider-sense/limited pre cog. Upon studying Peter's 'Spider-Sense', Tony was able to isolate it's frequency, and create a neural-net which replicated it. This, not only gave Tony his own 'Spider-Sense', but also allowed him to negate Peter's completely.

Ironman's thought speed.



Luke dies.
But of course, mein square
But of course, mein square


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Iron Man's reaction speed. GG Luke
> 
> 
> Iron Man also has a spider-sense/limited pre cog. Upon studying Peter's 'Spider-Sense', Tony was able to isolate it's frequency, and create a neural-net which replicated it. This, not only gave Tony his own 'Spider-Sense', but also allowed him to negate Peter's completely.
> ...



that's really not that impressive...luke has equal and superior feats to that, though the timeframe may not be given, i think reacting to lightspeed beams is good enough 

also, i see you avoiding providing the mindrape defense proof. try posting relevant feats instead of exposition and red herrings


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

tony looses, but I just want to point out how ooooooooooooold school something like telepathic assaults would be


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Ironman's teleportation tech. 

Time shift or whatever? Useless :lol


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> tony looses, but I just want to point out how ooooooooooooold school something like telepathic assaults would be



point taken, brainwave jamming isn't quite the same thing, ban 


Thor said:


> Ironman's teleportation tech.


that's an old armour, and it's not ghost tech, furthermore the ability to teleport =/= defense against luke fold-spacing a lightsaber into his skull...

come on

i see you edited  that doesn't help either, because as i've already explained, fold space and what ghost does (phasing) aren't the same thing


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## Es (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Tony's repulsor blast can char off layers of skin of WWH Hulks's body, don't compare it to crappy blaster bolts. So what if he can somehow react to Iron Man. He lacks the power, and strength to even harm him.



When the fuck did that happen? I jus remeber Tony shooting missiles and the going into fisticuffs with him.


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> point taken, brainwave jamming isn't quite the same thing, ban



That ultrasound brain fuckery of his, that shit might give luke some trouble I think 

Do you read Iron Man? I think I can explain what his powers are about now and give a more realistic notion of how this match could go


For example, tony has his own light saber now


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man can counter teleportation



Ironman's Psi-Baffler. Inhibits telepathy and telekinises.



Ironman jam's Moondragon's tp. Moondragon is Xavier's superior. 



Ironman trounced Mentallo who is a planetary level telepath at the time.





So there goes Luke's telepathy.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> That ultrasound brain fuckery of his, that shit might give luke some trouble I think
> 
> Do you read Iron Man? I think I can explain what his powers are about now and give a more realistic notion of how this match could go
> 
> ...



well, it's a matter of options. if he starts jamming telepathy off the bat (which i'm not sure works with the force in any case), it's fold space, lightsaber, skull, etc.

i don't read iron man, but i have a fair notion of his abilities

and yeah i saw from the scan where he attacked the Worthy


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Iron Man can counter teleportation
> 
> 
> 
> Ironman's Psi-Baffler. Inhibits telepathy and telekinises.



that shows he can sense it, not counter it, and furthermore, explain what teleportation he senses there, because fold space is not like much marvel teleportation

mention of a psi-baffler in an old scan does not prove bleeding edge has it, nor have you shown feats of said psi-baffler, sooooo


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

His new main armors are always *upgrades* of older ones. Look up the definition of upgrade.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor shaming his namesake as usual.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

except that the psi-baffler is something attached to her neck, not part of his armor...awkward


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> except that the psi-baffler is something attached to her neck, not part of his armor...awkward



That's her collar. 

Who cares though. One emp. GG Luke's telepathy. Like he did to Moondragon a telepath eons ahead of Luke.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Mandarin has to work a bit to wear down Tony's psi shields in a fight and even then that was from an old armor.
Luke would have to expend a decent amount of time to even penetrate Tony's mind let alone deal with most of his fail safes for mental intrusion.

By the time hes even close to adversely effecting Tony he would be dead from a repulsor blast.
Luke isn't winning this because he simply has no way of surviving Tony unloading  on him.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> That's her collar.





not part of his armour




Matta Clatta said:


> Mandarin has to work a bit to wear down Tony's psi shields in a fight and even then that was from an old armor.
> Luke would have to expend a decent amount of time to even penetrate Tony's mind let alone deal with most of his fail safes for mental intrusion.
> 
> By the time hes even close to adversely effecting Tony he would be dead from a repulsor blast.
> Luke isn't winning this because he simply has no way of surviving Tony unloading  on him.



pretty sure mandarin's mento-intensifier is nothing compared to luke's telepathic feats, so inapplicable comparison

and that doesn't cover what he could do with fold space, i.e. teleport a lightsaber into his skull


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> well, it's a matter of options. if he starts jamming telepathy off the bat (which i'm not sure works with the force in any case), it's fold space, lightsaber, skull, etc.



Well his armor senses that his brain is being hijacked so it would automatically turn on the psi-jammers



> i don't read iron man, but i have a fair notion of his abilities


His abilities would change.
See after siege because of character shit he decided to take next few steps
He created a sort of arc reactor and shoved it in his chest. This arc reactor has the power of a small star for starters and with it he powers his armor and his body
He doesn't need to eat much and whatnot

Now another thing this new armor of his does is that it's not really an armor but a sort of goo. It has more in common with Venom than it does with your regular henshin mech.
When it's not "on" it lives inside his own bones and it pops out covering him when time comes. 

He can also shape it as if it were a transformer to create any weapon or mechanism that seems necessary for the operation at hand.
Where old tony would need to bring some of his gadgets along with prep, new tony needs only to think at his armor to do something.
It's kinda cool that he for example can just cover his hand in armor while everything else goes, and he can grow eyes on the knuckles so he doesn't even have to look in any direction in order for the feed to go through his brain.
Because the armor is physically wired to his brain. It's not telepathic, and it's not technopathycalling controled, it's neural. Like those earing aids that require brain surgery
So telepathy wouldn't even work because his brain is always physically hot wired to the armor's computer.
If the brain begins to act wonky the armor  reads it and lifts it.
If you touch him in the shoulder without him noticing the armor turns his shoulders into spikes and shreds your fingers

Like a proton canon or a light saber or any of the things he can usually do

So against most of Luke's attacks he would probably just churn something out and be done with it

Space and time folding included.

Of course this that is all fine and dandy up to a point.

Luke has feats with black holes and shit. Tony has no business facing something like that on an average hand to hand struggle


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## Es (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Mandarin has to work a bit to wear down Tony's psi shields in a fight and even then that was from an old armor.
> Luke would have to expend a decent amount of time to even penetrate Tony's mind let alone deal with most of his fail safes for mental intrusion.
> 
> By the time hes even close to adversely effecting Tony he would be dead from a repulsor blast.
> Luke isn't winning this because he simply has no way of surviving Tony unloading  on him.





Thor said:


> Who cares though. One emp. GG Luke's telepathy. Like he did to Moondragon a telepath eons ahead of Luke.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McAeQiLmEYU[/YOUTUBE]


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> not part of his armour



Who cares though. One emp. GG Luke's telepathy. Like he did to Moondragon a telepath eons ahead of Luke.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Well his armor senses that his brain is being hijacked so it would automatically turn on the psi-jammers
> 
> 
> His abilities would change.
> ...



thank you for telling me that, but 



> So against most of Luke's attacks he would probably just churn something out and be done with it
> 
> Space and time folding included.



purely physical extrusions he can manipulate don't extend to things that can counter fold space, you'd need your own barrier of molded space-time like Xeelee construction material or something similar

so i don't see how his new abilities mean he can counter fold space


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Who cares though. One emp. GG Luke's telepathy. Like he did to Moondragon a telepath eons ahead of Luke.



though i have problems with the notion of his EMP static disrupting the force to begin with, if he's focusing on disrupting luke's mindrape, that just means fold space, lightsaber to the skull

and if he's focusing on killing luke immediately? mindrape

pre-cog gives luke the drop on him in any situation


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

He has many "space time distortion" sensors because of his many experiences fighting Doom.

Since the armor is all neural now, it would probably react to teleport away the moment it registered the continum fuckery that would be begining to fold

I put it at odds though. May happen, may not happen


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> pretty sure mandarin's mento-intensifier is nothing compared to luke's telepathic feats, so inapplicable comparison
> 
> and that doesn't cover what he could do with fold space, i.e. teleport a lightsaber into his skull



If he telaports a lightsaber into his skull hes going to take it out and heal from it. Someone mentioned on the first page that he healed with half his brain missing already. The fold space tech is not winning it for Luke.

don't care about what you consider Mandarin's level to be. Luke is attempting a mental degradation on someone with shielding from that type of assault its going to take time to break through Tony's mental defenses which is my point. Thor just posted a scan of Tony resisting Moondragon and she way above Luke in regards to TP.


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## Es (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> If he telaports a lightsaber into his skull hes going to take it out and heal from it. Someone mentioned on the first page that he healed with half his brain missing already. The fold space tech is not winning it for Luke.



Wut? Since when did tony regenerate from having a lightsaber shoved down his spine?


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> though i have problems with the notion of his EMP static disrupting the force to begin with, if he's focusing on disrupting luke's mindrape, that just means fold space, lightsaber to the skull
> 
> and if he's focusing on killing luke immediately? mindrape


Ironman can react faster than Luke can think though. Ironman's thought speed is much quicker than Luke. 



> pre-cog gives luke the drop on him in any situation



Tony has pre-cog too. He copied Spider-man's spider sense.


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> though i have problems with the notion of his EMP static disrupting the force to begin with, if he's focusing on disrupting luke's mindrape, that just means fold space, lightsaber to the skull
> 
> and if he's focusing on killing luke immediately? mindrape



The armor would probably give him autorun on anti telepathic assaults, no focusing required



> pre-cog gives luke the drop on him in any situation



Eeeh.
Let me rephrase that
Shatterpoints would reveal a viable strategy to beat him.
Yes
But it would not give him every single advantage. 
For example I can imagine him doing that ultra sonic brain melter of his as something that would be a bit hard for Luke to stop. No telepathy required.
Or maybe a nuclear detonation like the one he dropped on the Illuminaty Skrull would be something that woud likely require something a bit higher than a lightsaber and precog to survive.

Or a planetary telepathic nano-brain storm 


These are all arguable technique on which usage against luke would have variable results but I'm just saying
"drop on him every single time" might be a little precocious


----------



## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Ironman can react faster than Luke can think though. Ironman's thought speed is much quicker than Luke.


No man you got it twisted Luke can out react anyone because he has pre cog and shatterpoints.
Obviously Tony's vastly superior reaction time and speed won't matter at all when the Force is guiding Luke to sticking a Lightsaber in his face 

No seriously though Luke isn't beating Tony


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> If he telaports a lightsaber into his skull hes going to take it out and heal from it.* Someone mentioned on the first page that he healed with half his brain missing already*. *The fold space tech is not winning it for Luke.*
> 
> don't care about what you consider Mandarin's level to be. *Luke is attempting a mental degradation on someone with shielding from that type of assault its going to take time to break through Tony's mental defenses which is my point*. Thor just posted a scan of Tony resisting Moondragon and *she way above Luke in regards to TP.*



I bolded all your points that have been ignored.



Es said:


> Wut? Since when did tony regenerate from having a lightsaber shoved down his spine?



Since he said his healing factor is at least equal to Wolverines.


----------



## Es (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Since he said his healing factor is at least equal to Wolverines.



I have yet to see proof of this.

And even if he did Luke could just teleport his vital organs out of his body


----------



## Whimsy (Sep 6, 2011)

Es said:


> I have yet to see proof of this.
> 
> And even if he did Luke could just teleport his vital organs out of his body



At the same time, Ironman could nuke him. Making it a stalemate at best.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Ironman can react faster than Luke can think though. Ironman's thought speed is much quicker than Luke.
> 
> 
> 
> Tony has pre-cog too. He copied Spider-man's spider sense.



based on what? luke has feats of reacting to lightspeed attacks, tony has no discernible advantage 

spider-man's spider sense is nothing compared to force pre-cog, especially with luke's shatterpoints


Banhammer said:


> The armor would probably give him autorun on anti telepathic assaults, no focusing required
> 
> 
> 
> ...



in that case let me rephrase that: luke has the advantage in knowing which of his strategies will be viable based on tony's actions thanks to his precog

and i don't doubt that tony's actual physical attacks can destroy luke. i just think that between his precog, shatterpoints, mindrape and fold space, he has the edge in a major way in ending the fight right at the beginning


Thor said:


> I bolded all your points that have been ignored.
> 
> 
> 
> Since he said his healing factor is at least equal to Wolverines.



i'd like proof of such regeneration, and if you're depending on the lightsaber somehow only taking out half his brain, luke can just take apart the thing before he teleports it, so _all_ of tony's brain is destroyed by the plasma

also, you clearly did not post a scan of tony resisting moondragon, you posted one of his EMP affecting her, which is not at all the same thing

statements mean nothing until he has wolverine-level regen feats


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Since he said his healing factor is at least equal to Wolverines.






I think you mean Ultimate Iron Man


Lucaniel said:


> and i don't doubt that tony's actual physical attacks can destroy luke. i just think that between his precog, shatterpoints, mindrape and fold space, he has the edge in a major way in ending the fight right at the beginning


I'll give you all of those except for mind rape.

It's hard for me to pull out of thin air, I can promise you it would make sense to you if you were a little more familiar with the shenanigans of tony stark.

Let me see if I can find something good


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

There's like three or four mentions in the wiki about telepathic imunity but I can't find the bloody references


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> based on what?* luke has feats of reacting to lightspeed attacks, tony has no discernible advantage*



. Tony has feats of reacting to FASTER THAN LIGHT attacks. FTL>Lightspeed.  

It's a pretty dicernible advantage.



> spider-man's spider sense is nothing compared to force pre-cog, especially with luke's shatterpoints


Pre-cog is pre-cog in combat situations. All Ironman need's is to be warned a nano second before Luke does whatever he is trying to do. 



> in that case let me rephrase that: luke has the advantage in knowing which of his strategies will be viable based on tony's actions thanks to his precog
> 
> and i don't doubt that tony's actual physical attacks can destroy luke. i just think that between his* precog, shatterpoints, mindrape and fold space, he has the edge in a major way in ending the fight right at the beginning*



Too bad Ironman has pre-cog, can counter mindrape, and has VASTLY faster reaction and movement speed. 




> statements mean nothing until he has wolverine-level regen feats



It means something, when the statement is made by one of the smartest beings in your verse who has several failsafe ways to kill you. 


Banhammer said:


> I think you mean Ultimate Iron Man


No. When Tony got the Extremis armor he got in a scuffle with Wolverine and begged him, yes begged him to use his claws in a fight because "I want to see whose healing factor is better" Tony's words.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> . Tony has feats of reacting to FASTER THAN LIGHT attacks. FTL>Lightspeed.
> 
> It's a pretty dicernible advantage.
> 
> ...



show me him reacting to FTL attacks, then

actually, the spider-sense wouldn't even warn him of that, it'd just warn him that an attack is coming. whereas with pre-cog and shatterpoints luke would have a whole bunch of tony's weaknesses laid out in front of him. so there's a difference

aw, does it? i guess since "the power to destroy planets is nothing compared to the power of the force", luke planetbusts right off the bat and kills tony, then

nope. scans or no dice


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

just cutting in that spider-sense is well more sophisticated than "attack is incoming" but what is the extent that tony uses it, I cannot say


----------



## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

I think theres about 5 instances where his armor or just tech has blocked Telapathy.

1. against Moondragon when she mentally froze the avengers. Tony was able to resist and willed his armor to move via thought
2. Blocks Xavier's telapathy and is able to mentally detect when he's reading his mind
3. Zemo was mentally influencing the entire planet and Tony blocked with his armor
4. Mentallo did the same thing while Tony was unaware and his safeguard ended up compensating for him.
5. Mandarin attempting to mentally degrade Iron Man in an old armor and have to work at it.


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

For example, I remember that one time he used it to find a trap

Like a trap, trap

Internet trap.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

really? every time i ever saw the spider-sense on display it was pretty much just a bunch of jagged lines around spidey's head as he wheeled around to meet the incoming danger, which went from bullets, to rhino punching at him, to energy beams, whatever


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> really? every time i ever saw the spider-sense on display it was pretty much just a bunch of jagged lines around spidey's head as he wheeled around to meet the incoming danger, which went from bullets, to rhino punching at him, to energy beams, whatever



It's more subtle.
For example, it warns him of saying stupid shit to his girlfriend, warned him of hitting on a transvestite (maybe transsexual) it always subconsciously guides him on where to throw his webbs so he doesn't he does  try to put his swinging weight on a piece of plaster and then fall on his ass.
It tells him where and when to strike too, something that now that spidey is without has been afflicting him seriously

It also warns him of some types mystical fuckery


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> I think you mean Ultimate Iron Man
> 
> I'll give you all of those except for mind rape.
> 
> ...



The way Shatterpoints work (which is also passive): It tells the User how his opponent will attack, what they will do with their attack, how the attack will cause an action and reaction, what its weaknesses are, and how their future actions will be manifested on the scale of fate: Luke will see all of that and its most important manifestation and ability, how to counter or avoid it.

As for brain jamming, Dooku had a fatal cancer eating his brain and he cured himself with the Force once it became troublesome, almost instantaneously. Jacen/Caedus could casually rearrange his brain cells and neural paths to completely make himself immune to brain scanning and invasion.

And I'll reference again: a noob Luke could telepathically displace himself psychically an astrally in tens of thousands of people's minds at the same time, across an entire star system...six months after the events of Return of the Jedi.

And he also mind-fucked another Force-User who was in hyperspace (hyperdrive is literally hundreds of millions of times the speed of light) in another dimension. The same Luke in that novel, Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor, also dealt with a guy trying to rip out his mind and soul from his body and experienced the psychic equivalent to entropy. 

The black hole feat is roughly 10 years before Legacy of the Force series and 12 years before Fate of the Jedi (current series). Luke ripped apart an artifical singularity with telekinesis and inverted its gravitional pulls to destroy an entire army brigade.

In Dark Nest, he was making FTL illusions so greatly that the Jade Shadow, his wife's ship (that he built and designed by the way), seemed to be making afterimages, and this is where combat in space is typically at relativistic speeds. At this point he's at least as powerful as the Emperor, who could disable the precognition and long-range clairvoyance of the entire Jedi Order for decades on a galactic level.

As of his current powers: not even doing it intentionally, he caused psychic and physical pain with just his Force Aura to the Lost Tribe of the Sith, all of them, in another planet, on the opposite end of the galaxy. He now has the ability to teleport objects or himself if he wanted (though he hasn't done that yet with himsef) with Fold-Space and he has mastery of Electromagnetic Radiation.

Which allowed him to coat his personal starship against the electrical fields and radiation while piloting it between two REAL black holes. And also Emerald Lightning/Electric Judgment, a Force Lightning variant designed to bypass durability to instantly kill its target. Luke used this against Vony Slayers, who were immune/outside of the Force at the end of the New Jedi Order series.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

hahahahaha hitting on a tranny 

that's a lot more subtle than i'd known though, fair enough. but it's not something like: luke uses fold space, and the sense warns him, "you're going to get something teleported into your skull", is it?


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

No, that would just fall on the "GET THE FUCK AWAY FROM THAT PLACE NOW" type of warning

But the armor senses space and time distortion


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

it senses it, but can it stop it?


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> it senses it, but can it stop it?



Oh no. Not really no.

I supose getting out of the place where a light saber is being teleported in is not particularly an option?


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

well, luke has precog, it's one of those precog-reacting-to-precog alternate future things, but even if he did, luke would just change the destination to where tony's skull is going to be


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Well, then, there you have it.



Although he better be very careful so he doesn't hit that arc reactor


----------



## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> well, luke has precog, *it's one of those precog-reacting-to-precog alternate future things*, but even if he did, luke would just change the destination to where tony's skull is going to be



No its not 
now your talking about shatterpoints which if you know anything about them are not infallible.
If Tony can block spider-man's pre cog then you can make an argument that he can also affect Shatterpoints in a similar way.
He would essentially be the blindspot that a force user cannot see


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

er, yes it is. luke attacks. iron man senses he's attacking. luke's precog senses that he's moving to avoid the attack. it's a pretty definitive example

and that's kind of a moot point, since if _you_ knew much about it, you wouldn't be arguing tony wins this

and yeah ban if he hits the arc reactor it's a draw, true enough


----------



## Whimsy (Sep 6, 2011)

How long does it take to teleport the saber? Is it speed of thought? I mean the time it takes for it to appear in a skull, rather than the time it takes to start the process.

And if Ironman moves, how long does it take to change the place it is being moved to?


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

i'm actually not sure about that one; since it's a pretty small distance and it's space-warping, i pretty much imagined it was instantaneous from the action to the result. will need to look at the sources


----------



## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> er, yes it is. luke attacks. iron man senses he's attacking. luke's precog senses that he's moving to avoid the attack. it's a pretty definitive example
> 
> and that's kind of a moot point, since if _you_ knew much about it, you wouldn't be arguing tony wins this
> 
> and yeah ban if he hits the arc reactor it's a draw, true enough



I don't know how many times you have been shot down on this point but once again Luke is not out reacting Tony. He would have to basically react to everything Tony does because as its been pointed out hes not as fast as Iron Man and does not have the reactions of Iron Man.

Luke understanding what is going to happen and being able to avoid or prevent it are the hindrances of shatterpoints. If a shatterpoint leads him down this course of action against Tony and it inevitably requires Luke to do something that hes just not capable of(such as blitzing Tony or fatally wounding him) then again the ultimate conclusion is that all its good for it defense which is hilarious considering if Tony nukes the area Luke is going to die 100% of the time.

Tony fires a repulsor blast what is Luke going to do? Die most likely since there is no way for him to avoid the AOE


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

lol how many times i've been "shot down" on this point

last time it actually came up i asked thor to provide proof, he hasn't


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Whimsy said:


> How long does it take to teleport the saber? Is it speed of thought? I mean the time it takes for it to appear in a skull, rather than the time it takes to start the process.
> 
> And if Ironman moves, how long does it take to change the place it is being moved to?



Its instantaneous teleportation. The same moment Ben took out his lightsaber to open his hand, the lightsaber was displaced at the same time into Luke's hand.


----------



## Whimsy (Sep 6, 2011)

Is it possible to get a quote from the passage where that happens?

I'm just wondering whether it'd be harder to focus on a fast moving object than a stationary one (I don't know whether the lightsaber was stationary, hence asking for the quote) which would give Ironman the split second he needs to fire off an attack.


----------



## Whimsy (Sep 6, 2011)

Basically it seems like a who fires first match, which is complicated by the reaction, brain and movement speed of ironman vs. the attack speed of Luke. 

Also, can Luke multitask whilst doing the teleport? i.e. if Ironman is firing at him, is Luke able to dodge and teleport his saber at the same time?


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

The ability can be coupled with his Force senses, and precognitive abilities as well as his own reactions. Abeloth was teleporting herself with Fold-Space when fighting Luke, Ben, and the Sith Strike Team in Fate of the Jedi V: Allies.


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Whimsy said:


> Basically it seems like a who fires first match, which is complicated by the reaction, brain and movement speed of ironman vs. the attack speed of Luke.



Except its the speed of thought of Luke's that is going to likely come out first.



> Also, can Luke multitask whilst doing the teleport? i.e. if Ironman is firing at him, is Luke able to dodge and teleport his saber at the same time?



Yes he can. 

It was stated in the Jedi vs Sith as well as by (lol) even Karen Traviss in Legacy of the Force that you have to be able to use three master level Force abilities in tandem or at the same time to prove your a master. Mara was levitating herself, regulating her internal body heat, cloaking herself from surveillance, and using her danger sense all the same time.

Mara isn't close to top tier Force-Users.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man is able to fight with FTL characters like the Sentry and Thor, from what I read Luke can react to lightspeed attacks, so how exactly is that Luke is on par in speed with Tony?


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> lol how many times i've been "shot down" on this point
> 
> last time it actually came up i asked thor to provide proof, he hasn't



Already did.


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Mnemotherapy said:
			
		

> Originally Posted by Fate of the Jedi - Conviction
> Luke could not help but keep track of the fight with some small part of his mind. That was his son at risk. He recognized Ben’s tactic, Ben and Vestara spread out in a loose screen between Luke and Valin. It could be a bad fight—two to one, yes, but Valin had more than a decade’s experience on Ben and Vestara. Ben needed to remember Valin’s lack of strength in moving objects with the Force…Yet most of Luke’s concentration was wrapped up in Callista. Her memories flooded him, her presence suffused him. And beneath it, beneath the love for him that was all she wanted him to feel, was pain, decades of pain and loneliness experienced in her death-union with Abeloth.
> 
> And Abeloth herself. Luke could sense her at the fringes of Callista’s presence. No matter how she sought to conceal herself, Abeloth was too strong, too alien to hide successfully.
> ...



Using a mind-technique to rip out Callista's soul from Abeloth. Abeloth by the way, is essentially an avatar of the Dark Side of the Force and required a super civilization capable of construction artifical star systems, and galaxy ranging super weapons, into merely sealing her away between two super massive black holes.



			
				Fold-Space said:
			
		

> "And for Ben Skywalker, I have another gift. One that is not quite so
> difficult to understand."
> 
> He had been carrying one of the Vor'cha stun sticks attached to a belt around
> ...


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Already did.



i must've missed it, then; show me


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

Sasaki Kojiro said:


> Iron Man is able to fight with FTL characters like the Sentry and Thor, from what I read Luke can react to lightspeed attacks, so how exactly is that Luke is on par in speed with Tony?



So can someone care to explain this?


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Sasaki Kojiro said:


> So can someone care to explain this?



read the above exchange; proof that iron man can fight ftl is incoming

though i should add that if these fights took place on earth, then it is very unlikely they fought ftl...since if they did, they would kill all the civilians around them thanks to the sheer energy being displaced


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> read the above exchange; proof that iron man can fight ftl is incoming
> 
> *though i should add that if these fights took place on earth, then it is very unlikely they fought ftl...since if they did, they would kill all the civilians around them thanks to the sheer energy being displaced*



I think you don't want to take this road, just saying.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

yeah i had a few misgivings about it. fuck it. if thor and sentry were seriously going all out against him, in or out of the atmosphere, and he could keep up, i can accept him being ftl.


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Photon is too slow to overcome Ultron's defences because Ultron has superior reaction speed.



Tony overcomes them. 



Let's not that in the issue only Tony and Thor who can move at superluminal speeds can overcome Ultron's reaction speed.


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

I still say being a psychic whose speed of thought amped with precognition and prescience gives Luke the edge at the start of the fight.


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> I still say being a psychic whose speed of thought amped with precognition and prescience gives Luke the edge at the start of the fight.



I say being a cyborg whose speed of thought is in the pico-seconds, with limited pre-cog, class 100 strength, FTL movement speed and reactions makes Tony superior and gives him the fight.


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Don't care.

Speed of thought and knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it and what he will do with precognition that makes you effectively react to FTL and a fate-forecasting ability and the ability to bypass durability and rip off limbs or dismember with a teleport ability which Luke can do just as well as Abeloth says its not as obvious as you want to think it and can mind-fuck people on a galactic scale.

And TK > artificial singularities and warships designed to take petaton level firepower.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

So now you are claiming Luke can react to FTL attacks?....


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

What do you think the point of precognition is? It allows you to react to something before it happens, making the User effectively FTL. Also negged for trying to put words in my mouth.


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man can scan for weaknesses too.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

wait Tony has no defense against teleporting parts of his body off really? He's sloppy then if Eric and Doom can do that he should be able too even if it is just ripping off Vic's work

but he's got zero anti teleport tech? Although if Tony is FTL..

lukes precog is going to be a major factor in the battle it seems.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

In conclusion you are claiming he can react to FTL attacks.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

well, that scan didn't particularly convince me, but having looked over his fight with thor in the thorbuster, he definitely seems to be able to react to and land hits on thor, which does prove to me he can handle ftl

luke's enormously superior precog is still in there, but i see a stalemate being much likelier



Thor said:


> Iron Man can scan for weaknesses too.



read the scan you post

_physiological_ weaknesses

that's no different to a bloody x-ray

shatterpoints are vastly superior


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> Don't care.
> 
> Speed of thought and knowing what your opponent is going to do before he does it and what he will do with precognition that makes you effectively react to FTL and a fate-forecasting ability and the ability to bypass durability and rip off limbs or dismember with a teleport ability which Luke can do just as well as Abeloth says its not as obvious as you want to think it and can mind-fuck people on a galactic scale.


If he's not Moondragon/Xavier level his telepathy is useless. Oh yeah Luke is nothing to Moondragon therefore his telepathy is useless.

Bypass durability. Too bad he has a healing factor. 

Galactic scale mind fucking? Xavier was doing that when he was a pre-pubecent child and he's grown in power since then. 


> And *TK > artificial singularities and warships designed to take petaton level firepower*.



Ironman's Bleeding Edge armor tanked two full powered lightning bolts from Thor.


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> wait Tony has no defense against teleporting parts of his body off really? He's sloppy then if Eric and Doom can do that he should be able too even if it is just ripping off Vic's work
> 
> but he's got zero anti teleport tech? Although if Tony is FTL..
> 
> lukes precog is going to be a major factor in the battle it seems.



- Luke has the best Precog in the entirety of the Star Wars canon.

- Luke's Precog wasn't muddled by the Reborn Emperor at the height of his power in Dark Empire, their second combat match (and Force-Users fight on multiple levels; physical, mental, and astral) Luke decesively disarmed him. Remember a weaker version of the Emperor was stated to be a black hole in the Force, and completely disabled the precognitive and long-range clairvoyance abilities of the entire Jedi Order for decades.

- Luke has Shatterpoints: a prescient ability that specifically uses the Force to see how fate broadcast to its user what an opponent will do, how they will do it, what their strengths are, what their weaknesses are, and what the best way to defeat them is.

- A noobie Jax Pavan's Precog was always active, and it saved him subconsciously when he wasn't aware of I-Five firing an actual laser beam at him until after he blocked it

- Fold Space isn't a phasing ability, it literally teleports objects through time-space; Abeloth was using it to teleport herself around


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

In the end the edge of speed is of Tony being able to react to ftl opponents, the first attack would most likely be from him.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> - Fold Space isn't a phasing ability, it literally teleports objects through time-space; Abeloth was using it to teleport herself around



yeah I know about lukes precog feats hence why i said this would be a major factor in battle- it's good enough that a speed gap if it exists is closed up right quick

as for the folding space based teleportation, I figured it wasn't traditional phasing so this isn't a surprise others in Marvel can defend against this through super powers(magneto,Strange etc etc) or Technology (doom, The Shiar) so my question was Does tony currently possess such tech?

but from the looks of it he does not so luke should just BFR his heart if the speed  matter is now closed/


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> read the scan you post
> 
> _physiological_ weaknesses
> 
> ...



You have to look at it this way, wait for anything he says to be confirmed by Banhammer, Ben Grimm, or Immortal. He is kind like  the Phenom of Marvel Comic.


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

His armor can detect astral forms, time shift or whatever is useless.



More anti-mind rape feats.


Ironman's speed of thought pre Bleeding Edge.


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

If it is already proved that Tony can react to FTL attacks while Luke can only do it to lightspeed ones, how exactly is luke going to manage to attack first?

I mean damn is a simple question, with a really simple answer which some of you seem to be avoiding.


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

this is reading the scan you post all over again



"And the cognitive clockspeed remains only human-equivalent, alas."

what was the point of posting that?

and that other only shows astral plane interference detection, it doesn't show defence against spatial manipulation like fold space.




Sasaki Kojiro said:


> If it is already proved that Tony can react to FTL attacks while Luke can only do it to lightspeed ones, how exactly is luke going to manage to attack first?
> 
> I mean damn is a simple question, with a really simple answer which some of you seem to be avoiding.



because luke's precognition evens things out


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> well, that scan didn't particularly convince me, but having looked over his fight with thor in the thorbuster, he definitely seems to be able to react to and land hits on thor, which does prove to me he can handle ftl
> 
> luke's enormously superior precog is still in there, but i see a stalemate being much likelier
> 
> ...



How about his brain scan?


----------



## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> because luke's precognition evens things out



How so? the feats he haves of using his precog is of reacting to lightspeed attacks, so why is he now able to react to FTL ones when he doesn't have feats for it?


----------



## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> How about his brain scan?



so there are hooks in a guy's brain

and he gets them out

then looks at his brain to check his work

cool?

that's just x-raying again?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> You have to look at it this way, wait for anything he says to be confirmed by Banhammer, Ben Grimm, or Immortal. He is kind like  the Phenom of Marvel Comic.



did he just post a scan that torpedoed his own argument?


----------



## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Outreacts Living Laser. 


Ironman's thought speed is vastly superior to "the speed of thought of a human/Luke"


----------



## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> did he just post a scan that torpedoed his own argument?



He has done it more then twice already. Plus the fact he calls Luke's thought speed as a "normal" human kind of highlights his bias.


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

Everytime you post I wait for you to prove luke can react to FTL attacks when he has only done it to lightspeed ones, but instead you just post to attack the other poster.....


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Time/Force sink won't work. Nothing can teleport IN OR OUT of his armor.

Here Ironman stops nano-tech bugs from being teleported INTO his armor. He also mentions that he can't be teleported seperataly from his armor



FINALLY.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> He has done it more then twice already. Plus the fact he calls Luke's thought speed as a "normal" human kind of highlights his bias.



damn so he really is a comic phenom either that or related to sasuona he always did that.

I don't recall Ironman ever displaying FTL reaction time he's always hovered just below lightspeed and with his new armor at light speed, his travel time might be another story but I don't think Thor has a case at all.

I could be wrong for all i know I'm not an IM expert but I've never seen any consistent FTL reaction time feats not ones valid enough to present as evidence for such a claim any ways


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## Sasaki Kojirō (Sep 6, 2011)

IWD I am sad to see how easely you let yourself get manipulated by this guys.....I mean damn....


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> damn so he really is a comic phenom either that or related to sasuona he always did that.
> 
> I don't recall Ironman ever displaying FTL reaction time he's always hovered just below lightspeed and with his new armor at light speed, his travel time might be another story but I don't think Thor has a case at all.
> 
> I could be wrong for all i know I'm not an IM expert but I've never seen any consistent FTL reaction time feats not ones valid enough to present as evidence for such a claim any ways



Read the Ironman and Sentry vs The Collective fight. All 3 of them were fighting from earth, to the moon and to mars. Then Iron Man kept up with The Sentry half way to the sun.


In case people missed it/ignored it. Luke's only chance of winning won't work. Nothing teleports in his armor.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

on your teleportation thing

"teleportation _beam_" immediately suggests a different kind of teleportation to fold space

like i already said

fold space is spatial manipulation. so you need a barrier that somehow violates basic space to defend against it. that's unconvincing


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> damn so he really is a comic phenom either that or related to sasuona he always did that.
> 
> I don't recall Ironman ever displaying FTL reaction time he's always hovered just below lightspeed and with his new armor at light speed, his travel time might be another story but I don't think Thor has a case at all.
> 
> I could be wrong for all i know I'm not an IM expert but I've never seen any consistent FTL reaction time feats not ones valid enough to present as evidence for such a claim any ways



thor is confirmed ftl, so this fight


*Spoiler*: __ 












convinced me he could fight ftl, when i went looking


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 6, 2011)

so uh, what kind of suit is current Iron Man wearing


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Thor said:


> Read the Ironman and Sentry vs The Collective fight. All 3 of them were fighting from earth, to the moon and to mars. Then Iron Man kept up with The Sentry half way to the sun.]



and bobs powers aren't legit superspeed their temporal based as for that I think you missed what I said but I'll restate it "i have not seen enough consistent high end speed feats to suggest he can react at ftl speeds"

never said anything about travel time and one or two feats do not make an action valid from an debate stand point



Thor said:


> In case people missed it/ignored it. Luke's only chance of winning won't work. Nothing teleports in his armor.



that's hardly teleportation based off spacial manipulation which seems to be what Luke can do, now can I see something a little more precise or blocking out more?

I'm not doubting its out there Tony *should* have such defenses it's idiotic for him not too when he has both the super powered and technical versions for him to compare too..but I am not seeing it presented here and the guy has been making some absolutely atrocious CIS riddled choices of late



Lucaniel said:


> thor is confirmed ftl, so this fight
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



that's impressive but I highly Doubt Thor was trying blitz

Thor being confirmed FTL is a relatively recent development I'd imagine because for a very long time the feats just didn't add up for a definitive claim


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> so uh, what kind of suit is current Iron Man wearing



the 'bleeding edge'

it's a sort of composite of his previous suits which has a bunch of their abilities like repulsors and so on, but the difference is that it's been integrated with the extremis and all, so now on thought, tony can generate whatever weapons, defences and physical technology he wants

on the other hand, i don't think it's hulkbuster/thorbuster in power levels, and seems to have no defence against fold space, and inconsistent against mindrape (thor's proof generally seems to torpedo his own argument, and the occasional valid proof he has like defending against MODOK's psi-bolts, is in older suits)


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Fold-Space works by using the Force to manipulate dimensions of time-space instantly. Its not a phasing ability like I've said earlier.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

What is telaportation? Spacially moving from one space to another without actually moving. Luke is doing nothing conceivably different from that so going by that scan Fold space would be useless against him if applied directly like that.

Iron Man is FTL though, if your talking about his classic armor then you would have a point because it wasn't really that fast and only ever augmented his reactions but current Iron Man? Hes kept up with Thor,living Laser, Photon, Wonder Man, Sentry,etc etc


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> What is telaportation? Spacially moving from one space to another without actually moving. Luke is doing nothing different from that so going by that scan Fold space would be useless against him if applied directly like that.
> 
> Iron Man is FTL though, if your talking about his classic armor then you would have a point because it wasn't really that fast but current Iron Man? Hes kept up with Thor,living Laser, Photon, Wonder Man, Sentry,etc etc



teleportation has an absolute ton of different mechanisms, from nightcrawler to mechanised teleporters in JLA, to alien tech and so on

which all have more complex explanations then the one you're trying to give to try and equalise them all

and in doing so pretend that iron man has defence against direct spatial manipulation


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## hojou (Sep 6, 2011)

Ironman rapes. :/ Sorry luke and can i get some scans of luke feats please.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

But of course, mein square


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Fang said:


> Fold-Space works by using the Force to manipulate dimensions of time-space instantly. Its not a phasing ability like I've said earlier.



sounds like it's some what similar to what nightcrawler does



Sasaki Kojiro said:


> IWD I am sad to see how easely you let yourself get manipulated by this guys.....I mean damn....



you don't know me, I don't yield the debate if I believe I'm acting on the facts and I don't mind conceding when proven wrong at all


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

nope, nightcrawler displaces himself through an alternate dimension. fold space uses normal space


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Iron Man has forty different sensors, it's true


So what?


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## Banhammer (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> nope, nightcrawler displaces himself through an alternate dimension. fold space uses normal space



Well, Nightcrawler uses both. This is why he can do stuff like teleporting shit inside shit, (or can't, depending on the way you look at it) or do other shit like teleporting your head off and leaving the body behind


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

The methods of how they are achieved DONT change the result. Your space is moved from one location to another. In the scan Tony said they were trying to beam nanites into his armor which should tell you its more akin to blocking actual materialization so anything that's solid will undoubtedly be impeded anyway.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> The methods of how they are achieved DONT change the result. Your space is moved from one location to another. In the scan Tony said they were trying to beam nanites into his armor which should tell you its more akin to blocking actual materialization so anything that's solid will undoubtedly be impeded anyway.



well actually yeah they do change the result

a teleportation beam can be blocked, but if something moves through the fabric of spacetime from one place into another, it bypasses any shields completely

except for shields OF spacetime like XCM

but iron man doesn't have any of those


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> The methods of how they are achieved DONT change the result. Your space is moved from one location to another. In the scan Tony said they were trying to beam nanites into his armor which should tell you its more akin to blocking actual materialization so anything that's solid will undoubtedly be impeded anyway.



no it dramatically changes the result


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> well actually yeah they do change the result
> 
> a teleportation beam can be blocked, but if something moves through the fabric of spacetime from one place into another, it bypasses any shields completely
> 
> ...


Once again if the end result is being moved to another location without movement what is it? Telaportation
If its achieved by dimensional manipulation or matter manipulation that end result remains the same.

You're assuming that wherever the folded space is moved to its going there already materialized inside the object which is not true. It would in the end have to be materialized and Tony's shields happen to block those things from happening according to the scan.


The Immortal WatchDog said:


> no it dramatically changes the result



How ?
The result is always the same if its not then its not telaportation like they are  trying to present it as.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 6, 2011)

how do you not get the difference between outright spatial manipulation and mere teleportation beams

this is like saying regular ice and absolute zero ice are the same since both result with objects being frozen


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

you're probably going to claim i'm being vague or something; but i'm sorry, you just don't get it. the kind of teleportation he blocks and the kind luke does are radically different.


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

You are being vague
What Luke does is akin to spatial and dimensional manipulation to move something somewhere else. A telaportation beam is like a pipe that takes energy to another location and it is then materialized fully at that location. There's no difference to the result.

If its moved to empty space then there is no need for said object lightsaber(to materialize inside something) However when it does its definitely not immediately solid and definitely not being subjected so shield's automatically forcing it out.

Tony's shield's would block it there is no hierarchy to telaportation unless you go by something like size


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

Or that regular fire is the same as balefire


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> You are being vague
> What Luke does is akin to spatial and dimensional manipulation to move something somewhere else. A telaportation beam is like a pipe that takes energy to another location and it is then materialized fully at that location. There's no difference to the result.
> 
> If its moved to empty space then there is no need for said object lightsaber(to materialize inside something) However when it does its definitely not immediately solid and definitely not being subjected so shield's automatically forcing it out.
> ...


yes it is, there's a bloody beam involved

that should clue you in that there is a delivery mechanism

and that shields keep it out by blocking the beam

there is no delivery mechanism in fold space

object goes from one place to another, just pops out and in again

so it totally bypasses the shield


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> yes it is, there's a bloody beam involved
> 
> that should clue you in that there is a delivery mechanism
> 
> ...


Judging by this it sounds like you just didn't understand what was said in the scan.
The only way to enter the room is through telaportation not some travel beam that Tony could see and therefore block. When the energy constructs were introduced into the room Tony's armor blocked the attempt to telaport nanites into his armor and also revealed that he and his armor can't be telaported apart either meaning that nothing can physically impede either entity from each other. 

Fold Space wouldn't bypass his shield's 
Any object that comes into contact with his armor or even to go so far as to be telaported inside it would literally have to materialize and come in contact with them and then be impeded.


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## Fang (Sep 6, 2011)

>teleportation power
>being stopped by physical matter/energy
>physical 
>phy
>sical


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Judging by this it sounds like you just didn't understand what was said in the scan.
> The only way to enter the room is through telaportation not some travel beam that Tony could see and therefore block. When the energy constructs were introduced into the room Tony's armor blocked the attempt to telaport nanites into his armor and also revealed that he and his armor can't be telaported apart either meaning that nothing can physically impede either entity from each other.
> 
> Fold Space wouldn't bypass his shield's
> Any object that comes into contact with his armor or even to go so far as to be telaported inside it would literally have to materialize and come in contact with them and then be impeded.







> TELEPORTATION BEAM


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

Okay your making progress, now what was said after this?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> How ?
> The result is always the same if its not then its not telaportation like they are  trying to present it as.



because that beam likely does your typical sci fi teleportation which is scramble your molecules and bounce them from one location to another via a beam of energy

See; Star Trek/Stargate sg1's asgard

where as what TWF described is more comparable too "moving an object from one location to another in normal space with out any 'middle man" "

some what similar to Tealon ftl and how the necrons get around



Fang said:


> Or that regular fire is the same as balefire



quality poster that Matta


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## Lucaniel (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Okay your making progress, now what was said after this?



> is trying to patronise me
> can't read the scan
> can't understand simple distinctions


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## Bender (Sep 6, 2011)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> quality poster that Matta




You've got to admire the tenacity of that matta though.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 6, 2011)

Lucaniel said:


> > is trying to patronise me
> > can't read the scan
> > can't understand simple distinctions



to be fair, this is matta we're talking about


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## Matta Clatta (Sep 6, 2011)

I think we already covered what the different mechanics of telaportation can entail, I asked you a question about how you can use that  distinction between them and then say that one method of blocking the end result of a telaportion is not going to work the same way against another when they ultimately always have the same result regardless of how its achieved.  
Fold space is telaportation and the way your saying its being used against Tony in this thread is akin to phasing(which you denied earlier) so I have to take your word for it that its actually telaportation of the dimensional and spatial variety which still of course when impeding another object(which I haven't seen any feats for in the first place) has to actually materialize anyway meaning all this back and forth isn't helping you anyway.

I understand why you think Fold Space would bypass Tony's shields but ultimately the same scan Thor posted basically shoots that argument down (by merit of Tony's suit and body casually blocking attempts to impede themselves from each other) which is why I'm questioning if you actually read said scan in the first place.

All this aside Luke's only method of harming Tony in this fight won't even kill him in the first place due to his healing factor which is just going to be ignored I guess.

What does Tony have scorched earth tactics, Repulsor blasts, uni beam, etc etc its a forgone conclusion that Tony can win this fight pretty easily while Luke would only have a 1/10 chance of getting by Tony's pre cog, getting by his multiple failsafes that activate when anything penetrates his armor, getting by healing factor, and ultimately surviving Tony's initial attack. Yeah its safe to say hes not winning this fight.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> Judging by this it sounds like you just didn't understand what was said in the scan.
> The only way to enter the room is through telaportation not some travel beam that Tony could see and therefore block. When the energy constructs were introduced into the room Tony's armor blocked the attempt to telaport nanites into his armor and also revealed that he and his armor can't be telaported apart either meaning that nothing can physically impede either entity from each other.
> 
> Fold Space wouldn't bypass his shield's
> Any object that comes into contact with his armor or even to go so far as to be telaported inside it would literally have to materialize and come in contact with them and then be impeded.



Why did this quote not end this thread? Oh yeah.......denial.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Matta Clatta said:


> What does Tony have scorched earth tactics, Repulsor blasts, uni beam, etc etc its a forgone conclusion that Tony can win this fight pretty easily while Luke would only have a 1/10 chance of getting by Tony's pre cog, getting by his multiple failsafes that activate when anything penetrates his armor, getting by healing factor, and ultimately surviving Tony's initial attack. Yeah its safe to say hes not winning this fight.



Pretty much this. Tony has several ways to win easily while Luke has only 1 way to win and that's assuming he thinks faster than a super-computer with it's brain powered by a minature sun. Luke's only chance to win is a Longshot. Iron-Man wins the majority 99/100.


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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 6, 2011)

Stop jerking each other off, for fuck's sake.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)

Dandy Elegance said:


> Stop jerking each other off, for fuck's sake.



It's only jerking off each other when it's against the OBD hivemind.


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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)




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## Thor (Sep 6, 2011)




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## Dandy Elegance (Sep 6, 2011)




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## King Hopper (Sep 6, 2011)

Now for something new


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## King Hopper (Sep 6, 2011)

You get an A for effort however


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## Light (Sep 6, 2011)




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