# SM Naruto vs Kimimaro



## Amol (Jun 1, 2015)

Location : Gaara vs Kimimaro
Intel : None
Mindset : IC but to kill
Distance : 40m
Restriction : Naruto is only allowed Frog Kata and Sensing from SM. No Rasengan variants. No summons. No Clones . No Kurama's help.
Naruto can stay in SM for 15 min.
Base Naruto(from Pain Invasion arc) is only allowed to use normal Rasengan.
Kimimaro is not dying due to illness.
*Second Scenario* :
Base Naruto(Pain Invasion arc) vs Sound 5
No Kurama's chakra .


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

At first I thought I was hallucinating due to lack of sleep. 

Naruto is _tiers_ faster & stronger than Kimimaro. *Tiers.*

Kimimaro literally runs at Naruto and tries to stab him, and Naruto moves over, grabs Kimimaro's arm, rips it off, and shoves it down Kimimaro's throat, bone sword first.

Naruto no diff.

As for the Sound 4, base Naruto can summon Gamabunta who solos, but even clonejutsu and Odama Rasengans should be enough for Chunin tiers.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 1, 2015)

You could argue for reasonable doubt with a consistent view if you're selective and very careful.

I wouldn't do that though.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

I have never understood Kimimaro hype. Ever.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ghost (Jun 1, 2015)

Naruto blitzes and one shots.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 1, 2015)

CS1 boost might allow Kimi to at least realize that he is being blitzed and move a limb maybe.

CS2 boost might allow Kimi to survive the first hit without losing consciousness. 

Tough choice.


Naruto zergs Sound 4 with TKB+Rasengan spam.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Kimi is massively underrated here. He has tier 4.5 speed and CS. He is more durable than Naruto and has better taijutsu. IF anyone thinks Naruto no difs him with just taijutsu they'r deluding thsemlves.

edit : 

Obligatory troll post for sceniaro 2 : Tayuya solos

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Alex Payne (Jun 1, 2015)

He might be more durable. But he isn't better in Taijutsu than Sage Naruto.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Lol. Naruto rips out Kimimaro's spine and chokes him the fuck out with it.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

We don't know Naruto's taijutsu statistics post SM training but I doubt he jumped from 3.5 to 5 in a week.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

He seemed much more adept in taijutsu following his Sage Mode training; he went from being maybe your average Jōnin in skill to toying with two Cloud swordsmen _barehanded_.

And lol at Kimimaro having a shot at this. Naruto's above a guy who one-shotted a boss summon; Kimimaro isn't remotely above that in durability. At best, he gets up severely injured from the first hit only to be crushed with the second.


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2015)

Okay I'll be the first to say it then. Kimi wins this match. Yes SM-Naruto w/ Frog Katas will be consistently landing blows on Kimi, but physical strikes are simply not enough to put Kimi down despite Naruto's tremendous strength. This is the man who no selled Gaara's sand's attempts to crush him and ripping his own spine out of his body, with one foot already in the grave. He can tank and regen through Naruto's punches until 15m expire and than beat Base-Naruto.

With that said Kimi is nowhere near SM-Naruto in overall level, it is only because SM-Naruto is extremely nerfed here and force to fight Kimi on Kimi's own terms in Kimi's best field that Kimi wins with extremely high diff, after SM eventually runs out.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

That same boss summon had to be by default more durable than the force *required to plow an enormous fucking crater* in the building Jiraiya and Pain were fighting in, and Jiraiya _still_ knocked it out with one hit.

Do you think Gaara's sand has more power than the Yak's charge, which dug a crater hundreds of meters tall and deep? I don't. If Naruto aims for Kimimaro's neck or temple, it becomes even more quick.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Naruto grabs Kimimaro by the leg and repeatedly whips him into the ground until he either reaches the core of the earth or his Sage Mode runs out.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 1, 2015)

This thread made me remember Oberyn Martell vs the Mountain. Curse you, Scar.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

For people who still don't get it.



Bottom panel is the hole. See those pipes?



Jiraiya, who is two meters tall, can jump comfortably in said pipes, which are dwarfed by the crater's width, which in turn is *dwarfed* by the crater's depth.

Pre-timeskip Gaara has no business fucking with that level of power, and by extension, Kimimaro.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 1, 2015)

Err... Aren't those different pipes?

Reactions: Coolest Guy! 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Err... Aren't those different pipes?



No? The scan shows Kishimoto zooming in on the pipes overhanging the crater, then to Jiraiya running inside them. They're one and the same.


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## Turrin (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> For people who still don't get it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yet the Pain Paths consistently fucked with that "level" of power . So I'd imagine the man that can casually remove his entire spine can also fuck with that "level" of power. And no Kimi didn't just no sell sand coffin, but also being crushed by a massive Sand Tsunami and 200meters of earth, a SM users strikes aren't going to be well above that in force and quite frankly the fact of the matter is Kishi doesn't give much of a shits about physical strength.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

"Kishi doesn't give much of a shits" about Kimimaro. 

Naruto grabs him by the throat and uses his skull to see how many trees he can knock over in fifteen minutes.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Senjutsu Enhanced Rasengan GG.

 The paths actually have a reason for being physically strong and durable considering Human Path, the least physically reflexive of the Paths managed to block a Senjutsu Enhanced Kick that was enhanced by Jiraiya's Shunshin. 

 I don't see Kimimaro replicating that and if he can survive a hit from a stronger SM user such as Naruto, then he gets taken out by FRS or Rasengan considering he doesn't have the speed nor reflexes to dodge it.


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## Kyu (Jun 1, 2015)

Nardo grinds Kimimaro's bones into dust.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

What does Kimimaro being able to remove his spine unaffected have to do with his durability level? If Naruto takes a swing at his head, his skull and brain is being crushed, regardless of his ability to remove bones with no negative effects.

Turrin, just answer me this: do you think Gaara's sand has the destructive capacity to shatter a column of rock a hundred meters in width and multiple times that in length? Because that's what Jiraiya did, with one kick, to one-shot the Yak.

And I just realized something. If the Yak has to be at _minimum_ as durable as the crater it yielded with its head, Jiraiya's kick must be >> Yak's charge. Thus, Jiraiya's striking strength may very well be above Ā's overall since the cliff Ā blew up with his maximum-speed Shunshin wasn't anywhere that big - Liger Bomb even less. So Turrin, your estimation of Sages being above Ā at full power could very be true.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Oh look at that, SM Jiraya has the greatest strength feat (in the form of environmental damage) in the manga until we get to Jubi Obito.

'Cause of lolKishiscaling


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Oh look at that, SM Jiraya has the greatest strength feat (in the form of environmental damage) in the manga until we get to Jubi Obito.
> 
> 'Cause of lolKishiscaling



Though, to be fair, it isn't so much an issue of scaling and contradiction as it is we've never really seen characters blatantly physically superior to Sages try their hand at environmental damage, physically. 

Tsunade is stronger because she exceeded the power of a Massive Rasengan with one punch, Tailed Beast Mode Naruto is stronger because he repelled Bijūdama dozens of kilometers away compared to Jiraiya's kick on Human Path, Bijū are stronger because they can launch one another hundreds of meters far with casual strikes, etc.

Jiraiya's feat is only one of scaling (just as Tsunade's is); he didn't actually make that crater with a kick, but logically he'd be strong enough to do it. Ā probably has the best striking feat besides Obito in terms of outright environmental damage.

Regardless, looking it over I don't see issues with Sage Jiraiya > Ā overall in striking strength. I'd still give a V2 Raikyaku Suihei to Ā because of his cutting off Gyūki's horn, though.

Though it does change the Sage Naruto vs V1 Ā thread quite a bit, lol.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What does Kimimaro being able to remove his spine unaffected have to do with his durability level? If Naruto takes a swing at his head, his skull and brain is being crushed, regardless of his ability to remove bones with no negative effects.
> 
> Turrin, just answer me this: do you think Gaara's sand has the destructive capacity to shatter a column of rock a hundred meters in width and multiple times that in length? Because that's what Jiraiya did, with one kick, to one-shot the Yak.
> 
> And I just realized something. If the Yak has to be at _minimum_ as durable as the crater it yielded with its head, Jiraiya's kick must be >> Yak's charge. Thus, Jiraiya's striking strength may very well be above Ā's overall since the cliff Ā blew up with his maximum-speed Shunshin wasn't anywhere that big - Liger Bomb even less. So Turrin, your estimation of Sages being above Ā at full power could very be true.



Kimi can cover himself with the bone armor,  which is as hard as steel weapons. Which is amplified by cursed seal. 

So its likely that Naruto isn't killing anything here with 1 hit lol. If Kimi spawns some bones just as Naruto tries to hit him, it is very likely that Naruto ends up harming himself.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kimi can cover himself with the bone armor,  which is as hard as steel weapons. Which is amplified by cursed seal.
> 
> So its likely that Naruto isn't killing anything here with 1 hit lol. If Kimi spawns some bones just as Naruto tries to hit him, it is very likely that Naruto ends up harming himself.



Steel is a *joke* when it comes to characters who can render entire craters with their punches and  throw skyscraper-sized summons without issue. 

Tell me, what do you think would happen if Sage Naruto tried punching a car?


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

In all likelihood, Naruto will have knocked Kimimaro the fuck out _long_ before the Curse Seal comes into play given the knowledge here.

It probably wouldn't even change anything though. He'd still get blitzed and smashed over and over and over again. Kimimaro didn't seem to go much faster than Preskip speedsters like Lee or Sasuke; he was just getting the best of them using his powerful (relative to the Genin) Kekkei Genkai.

SM Naruto's clone was tangoing with RCM Raikages. He turns Kimimaro into a pretzel and punts him into orbit.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Steel is a *joke* when it comes to characters who can render entire craters with their punches and  throw skyscraper-sized summons without issue.
> 
> Tell me, what do you think would happen if Sage Naruto tried punching a car?



That analogy doesn't work because the steel weaponary in their universe is in proportion to how strong and durable they are. So punching Kimimaro's bone armor isn't the same as punching a regular car.

Even the average shinobi is fuckloads tougher than a regular human, considering Kakashi survived an attack like this without any injuries : *were shown*
That giant tree basically "died" after Kakashi punched through it and Kakashi was intact.
A force like that could easily destroy a car in our world. Yet we know that Kakashi isn't tougher than a kunai.



Rocky said:


> In all likelihood, Naruto will have knocked Kimimaro the fuck out _long_ before the Curse Seal comes into play given the knowledge here.
> 
> It probably wouldn't even change anything though. He'd still get blitzed and smashed over and over and over again. Kimimaro didn't seem to go much faster than Preskip speedsters like Lee or Sasuke; he was just getting the best of them using his powerful (relative to the Genin) Kekkei Genkai.
> 
> SM Naruto's clone was tangoing with RCM Raikages. He turns Kimimaro into a pretzel and punts him into orbit.



Naruto isn't blitzing Kimi, even if we assume Kimi is @ the bottom end of tier 4.5(which he may be). Blitzing requires a much bigger speed difference.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kimi is massively underrated here. He has tier 4.5 speed and CS. He is more durable than Naruto and has better taijutsu. IF anyone thinks Naruto no difs him with just taijutsu they'r deluding thsemlves.
> 
> edit :
> 
> Obligatory troll post for sceniaro 2 : Tayuya solos



Using the databook in 2015. 

Naruto blitz one shots.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> At first I thought I was hallucinating due to lack of sleep.
> 
> Naruto is _tiers_ faster & stronger than Kimimaro. *Tiers.*
> 
> ...



Nice trolling, go check their datebook stats and come back again with that speed nonsense.
Also, last time I checked, he defeated one of the Kcm clones. Yes a clone but a super enhanced clone with high speed.
It's a tossup kimi has food defense buf if he can outlast 15 minute sage mode then he wins definitely simply due to the fact that his taijutsu is light years ahead.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Hell Tayuya could murk him with sound genjutsu

If Kcm Narruto can't blitz and "one shot" Kimi, then why do you trolls think Sage Naruto can when has shown nowhere near the speed of  Kcm?


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 1, 2015)

Kimimaro might be durable, but that won't help when Naruto's thrown him into the Sun.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Kimimaro might be durable, but that won't help when Naruto's thrown him into the Sun.



Because when Naruto grabs him, he can't just cover his entire body into spiky bones and release them in every direction right?  Kimi will just stand by and let this happen


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

I never thought anything could come close to Minato wanking in BD but apparently SM Naruto wank really takes the cake


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That analogy doesn't work because the steel weaponary in their universe is in proportion to how strong and durable they are. So punching Kimimaro's bone armor isn't the same as punching a regular car.
> 
> Even the average shinobi is fuckloads tougher than a regular human, considering Kakashi survived an attack like this without any injuries : *were shown*
> That giant tree basically "died" after Kakashi punched through it and Kakashi was intact.
> A force like that could easily destroy a car in our world. Yet we know that Kakashi isn't tougher than a kunai.



Exactly, so you concede that the description *tough as steel* is meaningless, yes?

Either way, Kimimaro isn't above the Yak's charge. Not in the least. And until you prove that he us, Sage Jiraiya is leagues more durable than him _and_ can shatter his bones casually with a single hit.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Exactly, so you concede that the description *tough as steel* is meaningless, yes?
> 
> Either way, Kimimaro isn't above the Yak's charge. Not in the least. And until you prove that he us, Sage Jiraiya is leagues more durable than him _and_ can shatter his bones casually with a single hit.



Yet why didn't Jiraiya shatter animal realms hand when animal realm blocked his punch after his failed blind side punch?

Jeez this is almost as bad if not worse than Tsunade want.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Exactly, so you concede that the description *tough as steel* is meaningless, yes?
> 
> Either way, Kimimaro isn't above the Yak's charge. Not in the least. And until you prove that he us, Sage Jiraiya is leagues more durable than him _and_ can shatter his bones casually with a single hit.



In the context of their universe it isn't meaningless, so no I haven't conceded anything.

Just google "car crashing into trees"and you'll see one thing common in the images that come out. Trees are intract and cars are destroyed beyond recognition. And most of those trees in google you'll find aren't even 1/10th of the size of the tree Kakuzu destroyed via Kakashi.

*were shown*
Check out the size of that thing. Kakashi much tougher than a tree of that size. Let that sink in.
So yes, Kakashi is much more durable than a car from our universe.

Now these shinobi use weapons to kill each other right ?  If their steel weapons were the same as ours, they obviously wouldn't be effective on each other. So there is no doubt that the steel weapons they use are in proportion to their own durability and strength.
It would be pretty meaningless if they walked around with those weapons which wouldn't be able to put a dent on themselves. 

With that in mind, Kimi's bone armor being tougher than steel means something. We know for a fact that it makes him much tougher  than Kakashi for example.


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## Ashi (Jun 1, 2015)

Naruto lowdiffs if he comes at him seriously, Kimmimaro is outclassed in his own element 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kimi is massively underrated here. He has tier 4.5 speed and CS. He is more durable than Naruto and has better taijutsu. IF anyone thinks Naruto no difs him with just taijutsu they'r deluding thsemlves.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Thats a shitty emote. Just sayin.


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## Ashi (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats a shitty emote. Just sayin.


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## kingcools (Jun 1, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Okay I'll be the first to say it then. Kimi wins this match. Yes SM-Naruto w/ Frog Katas will be consistently landing blows on Kimi, but physical strikes are simply not enough to put Kimi down despite Naruto's tremendous strength. This is the man who no selled Gaara's sand's attempts to crush him and ripping his own spine out of his body, with one foot already in the grave. He can tank and regen through Naruto's punches until 15m expire and than beat Base-Naruto.
> 
> With that said Kimi is nowhere near SM-Naruto in overall level, it is only because SM-Naruto is extremely nerfed here and force to fight Kimi on Kimi's own terms in Kimi's best field that Kimi wins with extremely high diff, after SM eventually runs out.


kimi also loses vs base naruto.

SM naruto wins with absolutely zero difficulty. Absolute none. Again he can throw kimi into the stratosphere if he feels like it.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto isn't blitzing Kimi, even if we assume Kimi is @ the bottom end of tier 4.5(which he may be). Blitzing requires a much bigger speed difference.



I think Sage Naruto could blitz Kiba.


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## Empathy (Jun 1, 2015)

Kimimaro probably has 5 tier speed with his _juin_ active. He also ostensibly dodged KCM Naruto's _Rasenshuriken_.


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## Veracity (Jun 1, 2015)

Are we taking the DB speed stat seriously now ? Not like it even includes flicker anyway.

And even with a maxed speed stat, Kimmi will never touch Naruto with Sage Sencing and Frog Katas. He was being pressured by PTS drunken Lee, and the jump between that and Sage Naruto is astonishing.


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2015)

Nothing in Kimi's arsenal should hurt Naruto when he's in SM for the most part or it'll do minor damage so this depends on if Kimi can live for 15 minutes to finish off base Naruto. I'd say it could go either way but meh


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Kimimaro probably has 5 tier speed with his _juin_ active. He also ostensibly dodged KCM Naruto's _Rasenshuriken_.



CS2 slows Kimimaro down, and I *really* do doubt that with just the first stage he's faster than Hebi Sasuke & PII Kakashi and on par with Itachi & Gai.

I don't remember him dodging Rasenshuriken, but if you want to say that he can at least _react_ to Naruto's speed because of it, then okay. At melee range, Naruto still holds a _gigantic_ advantage over Kimimaro in speed and strength, and his taijutsu is better for what it's worth.

He tears Kimimaro limb from limb.


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## Amol (Jun 1, 2015)

This became more interesting than I previously thought it would.
Well since last week there has been lot of Hebi Sasuke threads(in one of that thread few argued that he can beat Third Raikage of all people ).
I also remembered argument of who has better CS? Kimimaro or Sasuke?
So I thought there should be someone who thinks that Kimimaro is better in CQC than SM Naruto.
And there are people like that here.
For record I myself do think that Naruto smacks him around with no problem.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Jesus christ, I remember when everyone was saying KCm would grind Kimi and what happened? He lost. I guess you all are just trying to conveniently act like it never happened


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think Sage Naruto could blitz Kiba.



I am not sure about that. Though Kimi is probably faster than Kiba with Juuin and he has tier 5 taijutsu. 

SM Naruto isn't a speed demon like his KCM counterpart anyways.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not sure about that.



Lol? 



> Though Kimi is probably faster than Kiba with Juuin and he has tier 5 taijutsu.



Yeah, but the Curse Seal isn't that huge of a boost. Naruto was fast enough to get the best of a cloaked Raikage. Kimimaro gets demolished.  



> SM Naruto isn't a speed demon like his KCM counterpart anyways.



One does not need v2 speeds to blitz Kiba (or Kimimaro).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Lol?


Can you remind me some of SM Naruto speed feats ? Movement feats in particular because honestly I can't remember anything impressive.



> Yeah, but the Curse Seal isn't that huge of a boost. Naruto was fast enough to get the best of a cloaked Raikage. Kimimaro gets demolished.


Cursed seal is actually a significant boost. 
Sasuke expressed that his speed was effectively the same when he was using CS after he awakened the 3rd tomoe. And the jump from 2nd tomoe to 3rd tomoe allowed him to basically outmanuver the guy who was blitzing him a few moments ago.

I have no problem with Naruto defeating Kimi in CQC. I am just against the notion that he "blitzes" or "no difs" Kimi. 



> One does not need v2 speeds to blitz Kiba (or Kimimaro).



I am pretty sure KCM by default makes Naruto faster than when he is in SM. He doesn't need to pump up a V2 to make a difference.

Tsunade was fairly impressed that Naruto was moving as fast as V1 A before he was able to use his max shunshin.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

SM Naruto likely moves faster than Base Ei who is a Kage Level speedster considering Base Bee's Shunshin is a lot faster than Hebi Sasuke's and Base Ei's Shunshin should surpass Base Bee's due to being the one who specializes in Shunshin and surpasses Bee's Bijuu Enhanced Shunshin with his own  Raiton Enhanced Shunshin. That speed alone would allow him to blitz a lot of ninja within the 4.5 Speed tier.

 So basically, SM Naruto not being as fast as V1 Ei is irrelevant as that's not needed to blitz someone in the 4.5 speed tier. Hebi Sasuke managed to nearly lolblitz Deidara. SM Naruto is much faster. That alone would allow him to blitz Kimimaro before he even manages to use Senjutsu Enhancements IMO.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *SM Naruto likely moves faster than Base Ei* who is a Kage Level speedster considering Base Bee's Shunshin is a lot faster than Hebi Sasuke's and Base Ei's Shunshin should surpass Base Bee's due to being the one who specializes in Shunshin and surpasses Bee's Bijuu Enhanced Shunshin with his own  Raiton Enhanced Shunshin. That speed alone would allow him to blitz a lot of ninja within the 4.5 Speed tier.
> 
> So basically, SM Naruto not being as fast as V1 Ei is irrelevant as that's not needed to blitz someone in the 4.5 speed tier. Hebi Sasuke managed to nearly lolblitz Deidara. SM Naruto is much faster. That alone would allow him to blitz Kimimaro before he even manages to use Senjutsu Enhancements IMO.



No, sm Naruto hasn't shown any speed feats. Plus, Zetsu commented that the Raikage was really fast, and A wasn't even super saiyan.
sm Naruto has not shown any speed feats faster than any form of A or Hebi Sauce.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> No, sm Naruto hasn't shown any speed feats. Plus, Zetsu commented that the Raikage was really fast, and A wasn't even super saiyan.
> sm Naruto has not shown any speed feats faster than any form of A or Hebi Sauce.



 Please explain to me how SM Naruto isn't that fast?

 SM Naruto blitzing Asura Path with Rasengan surpasses blitzing White Zetsu who's far less reflexive than Nagato with Shared Vision and Sensing esp. when Naruto had to accumulate the chakra at a near instantaneous rate and had to travel farther than Base Ei did.


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## Alkaid (Jun 1, 2015)

Funny how the same people who argued that Sasuke was significantly faster than Kimmi because of lolscaling despite the databook showing that there was only a tier of difference in speed are now arguing the opposite against SM Naruto.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> *SM Naruto likely moves faster than Base Ei* who is a Kage Level speedster considering Base Bee's Shunshin is a lot faster than Hebi Sasuke's and Base Ei's Shunshin should surpass Base Bee's due to being the one who specializes in Shunshin and surpasses Bee's Bijuu Enhanced Shunshin with his own  Raiton Enhanced Shunshin. That speed alone would allow him to blitz a lot of ninja within the 4.5 Speed tier.
> 
> So basically, SM Naruto not being as fast as V1 Ei is irrelevant as that's not needed to blitz someone in the 4.5 speed tier. Hebi Sasuke managed to nearly lolblitz Deidara. SM Naruto is much faster. That alone would allow him to blitz Kimimaro before he even manages to use Senjutsu Enhancements IMO.



Thats completely baseless though.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats completely baseless though.



 Anyone can claim my opinion is baseless when I provided an argument in the post above you. If you want, I can provide another piece of evidence. Even then, Base Ei's Shunshin speed alone is enough to nearly blitz someone within the 4.5 speed tier and to suggest SM Naruto is slower than Base Ei is a baseless claim unless you can provide evidence supporting that.

 For now, your point is moot.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Please explain to me how SM Naruto isn't that fast?
> 
> SM Naruto blitzing Asura Path with Rasengan surpasses blitzing White Zetsu who's far less reflexive than Nagato with Shared Vision and Sensing esp. when Naruto had to accumulate the chakra at a near instantaneous rate and had to travel farther than Base Ei did.



That wasn't a blitz, it was a surprise attack. There is a difference, nobody knew he'd be coming in.
A blitz is when someone has acknowledged your presence and has you in their visual field. But your speed still manages to catch them off guard. 
a cloud of sand for him and Lee 
a cloud of sand for him and Lee

If you read that entire fight or hell any of sm Naruto's fights you'll see he never blitzed anyone.
Asura path had his sights completely on Tsunade. Yes it was impressive that Naruto covered that much ground but the fact remains that he caught an enemy off guard who wasn't even going for him but the hokage.
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You can downplay Zest's statements all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he went out of his way to acknowledge somebody so fast.

Quick question, if I'm about to fight  dude A one on one, and one of his friends dude B who I know is behind me punches from behind me when I was aiming my punch at Dude A, did I get blitzed or was I simply caught off guard by a sucker punch?


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

Nope, stiill see no blitz and his enemies are completely aware. If anything he is on whatever pain this is's speed tier.
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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

blitzing a character = crossing a distance and attacking him without the character even being able to react

and you can't catch off guard a character who shares vision with 5 other bodies, not in the way poster above is implying at the very least

anyway SM Naruto is so above Kimi it's not even funny


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> blitzing a character = crossing a distance and attacking him without the character even being able to reacting
> 
> and you can't catch off guard a character who shares vision with 5 other bodies, not in the way poster above is implying at the very least
> 
> anyway SM Naruto is so above Kimi it's not even funny



Well then, I guess we have very different opinions on the term "blitz" With your description,there's only been 3 instances I can think of off the top of my head. Hebi Sauce against Base Naruto, Minato catching obit off guard with the rasengan and MInato vs A.

Though I'm sure more people would accept my definition of moving so fast and leaving little reaction time.


And haha, he's so above him just like he was so above Kimi when he was in Kcm right? You're right, you're not funny at all.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Nope, stiill see no blitz and his enemies are completely aware. If anything he is on whatever pain this is's speed tier.
> another ranged attack
> another ranged attack



 FRS couldn't even blitz any of the Paths with Shared Vision. Are you seriously implying that FRS moves even slower than Base Ei does?


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> FRS couldn't even blitz any of the Paths with Shared Vision. Are you seriously implying that FRS moves even slower than Base Ei does?



Can you do me a favor and provide a rebuttal for my earlier post without dodging and changing questions?

Secondly, who was talking about frs? I was talking about how you said he could blitz Kimi when he can't even blitz a pain body in direct sight and fully aware of him.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Well then, I guess we have very different opinions on the term "blitz" With your description,there's only been 3 instances I can think of off the top of my head. Hebi Sauce against Base Naruto, Minato catching obit off guard with the rasengan and MInato vs A.
> 
> Though I'm sure more people would accept my definition of moving so fast and leaving little reaction time.



erm not really

blitzing a character means being X times faster than a character, where X is the distance

also attempting to appeal to popularity




> And haha, he's so above him just like he was so above Kimi when he was in Kcm right? You're right, you're not funny at all.



and what did Kimi manage to do against a KCM Naruto clone?



Law Trafalgar said:


> Can you do me a favor and provide a rebuttal for my earlier post without dodging and changing questions?
> 
> Secondly, who was talking about frs? I was talking about how you said he could blitz Kimi when he can't even blitz a pain body in direct sight and fully aware of him.



> implying that Kimi is as fast as Pein


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Can you do me a favor and provide a rebuttal for my earlier post without dodging and changing questions?
> 
> Secondly, who was talking about frs? I was talking about how you said he could blitz Kimi when he can't even blitz a pain body in direct sight and fully aware of him.



 You're claiming that because SM Naruto can't blitz any of the Paths with his * physical speed * that he's automatically slower than Base Ei. Likewise, FRS can't blitz any of the Paths, so you're implying that FRS is slower than Base Ei.

 I'm not dodging your argument at all. I'm refuting your argument by proving how flawed your argument is.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're claiming that because SM Naruto can't blitz any of the Paths with his * physical speed * that he's automatically slower than Base Ei. Likewise, FRS can't blitz any of the Paths, so you're implying that FRS is slower than Base Ei.
> 
> I'm not dodging your argument at all. I'm refuting your argument by proving how flawed your argument is.



No no, I did not say sm Naruto was slower than A. He probably is for all we know. I'm saying that A had a proper speed blitz feat wile sm Naruto has had none. I'll give that Zetsu probably has shitty reflexes but its a speed feat and the characters speed is acknowledged.

When has that happened for sm Naruto? Now that you know my intention could you please answer my post?


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> erm not really
> 
> blitzing a character means being X times faster than a character, where X is the distance
> 
> ...



I'm not appealing to anything. We clearly have very different views of what blitzing is because with what you've stated that has very rarely happened in this series and if it has, its only happened a handful of time or more.
You won't accept my definition, I won't accept your definition so it's best to see what the aggregate view is on the term blitz.

Haha last time I checked Kcm Naruto faced off against Kimi and when Itachi ended reanimation, Kimi was shown clearly standing and no sight of Naruto. There ae only 2 reasonable assumption, and they are Naruto ran away or he was beaten. You pick your poison.

Yes because Pain has show significant speed feats. At least with Kimi we know he has a 4.5 which is half a tier away from max datebook speed. He may be faster he may be slower but the fact is we have more to go on for Kimi's speed.

And yes, resort to using emojis or whatever to quietly do damage control.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're claiming that because SM Naruto can't blitz any of the Paths with his * physical speed * that he's automatically slower than Base Ei. Likewise, FRS can't blitz any of the Paths, so you're implying that FRS is slower than Base Ei.
> 
> I'm not dodging your argument at all. I'm refuting your argument by proving how flawed your argument is.



FRS actually did blitz animal path, that's why human path sacrificed himself to get animal path out of the way

each path has it's own strengths and it's own weaknesses

and Naruto did blitz the Asura path at first, despite what Law Trafalgar is blubbering about catching off guard

sure Asura was focused on Tsunade, but other paths were not, at least one of them was still keeping tabs on Naruto, he was in front of them (so no from attacking from behind like Law tried to claim) and he was the most dangerous Konoha shinobi present there

the thing everyone are forgetting is that paths share the chakra pool, so when one path gets disabled - others become stronger


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> No no, I did not say sm Naruto was slower than A. He probably is for all we know. I'm saying that A had a proper speed blitz feat wile sm Naruto has had none. I'll give that Zetsu probably has shitty reflexes but its a speed feat and the characters speed is acknowledged.



 I never denied White Zetsu being crushed by Ei as not a speed feat as he did believe he could waltz into the Summit against a bunch of Kage Level ninja unharmed. However, SM Naruto not only managed to blitz Asura Path at the last second, but he managed to form Rasengan within that instant as well which is far more impressive than what Base Ei did.

 However, please explain to me how that was not a proper speed feat? He had Shared Vision which implies that Asura Path should have been able to react as Naruto was within his field of vision yet couldn't because Naruto was so damn fast. SM Naruto managing to accomplish what he just did implies he's faster than a Asura Path's Rocket-Enhanced Speed. Much faster if he managed to form a Rasengan and strike down Asura Path in the very instant that Asura Path was literally an inch or not even an inch from chopping Tsunade's head off.

another ranged attack
another ranged attack



> When has that happened for sm Naruto? Now that you know my intention could you please answer my post?



 I don't understand what you're asking.

 As for your question, do you honestly think (by your logic) that being unable to blitz any of the Paths means he's unable to blitz Kimimaro when those same Paths could dodge FRS and even react to it's expansion speed and effiectively evade it's AoE? You do realize that is a display of Kage Level reflexes correct? Kimimaro doesn't have that and has not shown feats of being to react to the expansion speed of an FRS.

 Furthemore, SM Naruto being unable to blitz Preta Path doesn't imply his movement speed isn't on Base Ei's level. He never even attempted a blitz and merely attempted on striking him down with a Frog Kata as it utilizes Natural Energy and saves him Sage Chakra that could be used for other techniques instead of using it on Shunshin.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I'm not appealing to anything.



this is a text book appeal to popular opinion:



> Though I'm sure more people would accept my definition







> We clearly have very different views of what blitzing is because with what you've stated that has very rarely happened in this series and if it has, its only happened a handful of time or more.
> You won't accept my definition, I won't accept your definition so it's best to see what the aggregate view is on the term blitz.



here you go again:



> aggregate view is on the term blitz



> attempt to appeal to popularity



> Haha last time I checked Kcm Naruto faced off against Kimi and when Itachi ended reanimation, Kimi was shown clearly standing and no sight of Naruto. There ae only 2 reasonable assumption, and they are Naruto ran away or he was beaten. You pick your poison.



last time I checked Chiyo was there too, they both were edos, so anything KCM clone could have done to them off panel would have been regenerated

so I have a couple reasonable assumptions for you:

1) KCM clone ran out of chakra
2) Chiyo defeated the clone
3) the clone simply wasn't shown on the panel, because the purpose of that panel was to show the edos being released



> Yes because Pain has show significant speed feats. At least with Kimi we know he has a 4.5 which is half a tier away from max datebook speed. He may be faster he may be slower but the fact is we have more to go on for Kimi's speed.



yeah because 4.5 in a very old pre-TS databook is more telling than the fact that *kid Naruto* was perfectly able to keep up with kid Sasuke, who was able to run circles around Gaara just like kid Lee did (they even said that he reached the same speed), while kid Lee was perfectly able to keep up with Kimi

the 4.5 in databook written by editors is more important than actual manga feats, yup



> And yes, resort to using emojis or whatever to quietly do damage control.



> implying that is the actual reason I used the emoji


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Nothing in Kimi's arsenal should hurt Naruto when he's in SM for the most part or it'll do minor damage so this depends on if Kimi can live for 15 minutes to finish off base Naruto. I'd say it could go either way but meh



Naruto can't kill Kimimaro with these restrictions. Kimimaro's body regenerates, and his body tanked sand coffin. Kimimaro can then fuse with bone branches and be untouchable to the restricted Naruto.

Then Naruto's sage mode runs out, and Kimimaro low diffs the restricted base Naruto. That's the only way this match ends. There's no way Naruto can punch Kimimaro to death before he wises up.​


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## kingcools (Jun 1, 2015)

Base Naruto also solos Kimi, no idea how outlasting SM, which he never can do thx to Sage Sensing, is going to help kimi.

Naruto is the better fighter in every state.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

kingcools said:


> Base Naruto also solos Kimi



I'd agree with you if we're talking about an unrestricted base Naruto. But this Naruto is restricted to taijutsu. And Kimimaro is the worst lower-tier-match for taijutsu people.​


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> FRS actually did blitz animal path, that's why human path sacrificed himself to get animal path out of the way



 True. I'm not sure why I misread it as something else.



> each path has it's own strengths and it's own weaknesses



 Definitely. 



> and Naruto did blitz the Asura path at first, despite what Law Trafalgar is blubbering about catching off guard



 Yeah and that's the main point I was trying to address to him, but he's stubborn.



> sure Asura was focused on Tsunade, but other paths were not, at least one of them was still keeping tabs on Naruto, he was in front of them (so no from attacking from behind like Law tried to claim) and he was the most dangerous Konoha shinobi present there



 Exactly. SM Naruto was within their field of vision, therefore, he definitely noticed SM Naruto.



> the thing everyone are forgetting is that paths share the chakra pool, so when one path gets disabled - others become stronger



 Indeed, and as much as he wants to cherrypick scans, I can just as well cherrypick SM Naruto traveling much faster than Deva Path with * all * of Nagato's chakra being sent directly towards that path and effortlessly destroying him in CQC despite displaying Kage Level Reflexes with less chakra, but I chose not to.


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## Rocky (Jun 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto can't kill Kimimaro with these restrictions. Kimimaro's body regenerates, and his body tanked sand coffin. Kimimaro can then fuse with bone branches and be untouchable to the restricted Naruto.
> 
> Then Naruto's sage mode runs out, and Kimimaro low diffs the restricted base Naruto. That's the only way this match ends. There's no way Naruto can punch Kimimaro to death before he wises up.​



Wonder if Kimimaro can beat Itachi though the same methods. Fuse with forest and genjutsu becomes useless, Susano'o is useless, and Amaterasu just makes the bones fire bones. 

Base Naruto is also allowed Rasengan I think.


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Naruto can't kill Kimimaro with these restrictions. Kimimaro's body regenerates, and his body tanked sand coffin. Kimimaro can then fuse with bone branches and be untouchable to the restricted Naruto.
> 
> Then Naruto's sage mode runs out, and Kimimaro low diffs the restricted base Naruto. That's the only way this match ends. There's no way Naruto can punch Kimimaro to death before he wises up.​



Wonder if Kimimaro can beat Itachi though the same methods. Fuse with forest and genjutsu becomes useless, Susano'o is useless, and Amaterasu just makes the bones fire bones. 

Base Naruto is also allowed Rasengan I think.


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> FRS actually did blitz animal path, that's why human path sacrificed himself to get animal path out of the way
> 
> each path has it's own strengths and it's own weaknesses
> 
> ...


Yes it's only blubbering because you can't argue against it. Asura path had it's targets set on Tsunade. And Yahiko pain was directly speaking to Tsunade saying she wasn't the one they wanted. The sad reality is that the fact that Yahiko pain was talking directly to her and that asura path was moving straight at her then Tsunade was their focus. There is absolutely nothing showing 1 pain was secretly keeping an eye on Naruto. I wish there was but there isn't.
So whatever floats your boat, nothing on panel shows that Naruto was being analyzed in the few second time frame where Pain wanted to kill tsunade. And I guess attacking someone who wasn't paying attention to you is blitzing. 
You're the one who's blubbering.


NarutoX28 said:


> I never denied White Zetsu being crushed by Ei as not a speed feat as he did believe he could waltz into the Summit against a bunch of Kage Level ninja unharmed. However, SM Naruto not only managed to blitz Asura Path at the last second, but he managed to form Rasengan within that instant as well which is far more impressive than what Base Ei did.
> 
> However, please explain to me how that was not a proper speed feat? He had Shared Vision which implies that Asura Path should have been able to react as Naruto was within his field of vision yet couldn't because Naruto was so damn fast. SM Naruto managing to accomplish what he just did implies he's faster than a Asura Path's Rocket-Enhanced Speed. Much faster if he managed to form a Rasengan and strike down Asura Path in the very instant that Asura Path was literally an inch or not even an inch from chopping Tsunade's head off.
> 
> ...



Sorry to say, but Asura and the other pains for that time frame between panels focused on killing Tsunade because she was in the way. It was a legitimate speed feat if you look at the ground he covered in that amount of time, but from what we were shown, Tsunade was their prime target. Not to mention, rasengan at that point literally takes Naruto like 1-2 seconds to form.



Yes, they had shared vision, but from what we're shown Pain wanted to get rid of Tsunade since she was a nuisance. I believe, it makes sense if your sight is on the person you're attempting to kill.
Of course you could be right and at least 1 of the pains was keeping a tab on Naruto, but we're simply not shown that. But if that's what this argument is going to hinge on, then I think it's best we agree to disagree. Because we're shown a panel where Pain is focused on Tsunade for that time frame.
Im not denying he's faster than asura because he covered more ground, but we don't know when he left the frogs and teleported over there for all we know he was halfway there when Pain had launched his rocket boosters. Thats something we'll simply never know. 
We did see pain staring naruto down after he struck down asura.


And are you also telling me that Kcm Naruto who actually is portrayed to be extremely fast is slower than sm Naruto? Plus my memory is fuzzy, but that same sm Naruto had kcm activated and we are never shown Kimi being hit. We are shown that he or something defeated the Kcm clone.

You said he didn't attempt to blitz pretax yet you and everyone else are saying that he'd blitz Kimi yet you just showed me that trying to blitz is out of character for him. We've never seen sm Naruto blitz anyone yet for this one time he'd go out of character and try to blitz him? 

You'd have a better argument saying sm Naruto could beat Kimi with frog kata than having him do something that is out of character for that mode, not to mention something we've never seen.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wonder if Kimimaro can beat Itachi though the same methods. Fuse with forest and genjutsu becomes useless, Susano'o is useless, and Amaterasu just makes the bones fire bones.



Itachi needed Susano'o to counter Sawarabi no Mai against Kabuto.

Which is why I don't believe "dodge" is an answer to it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Yes it's only blubbering because you can't argue against it. Asura path had it's targets set on Tsunade. And Yahiko pain was directly speaking to Tsunade saying she wasn't the one they wanted. The sad reality is that the fact that Yahiko pain was talking directly to her and that asura path was moving straight at her then Tsunade was their focus. There is absolutely nothing showing 1 pain was secretly keeping an eye on Naruto. I wish there was but there isn't.
> So whatever floats your boat, nothing on panel shows that Naruto was being analyzed in the few second time frame where Pain wanted to kill tsunade. And I guess attacking someone who wasn't paying attention to you is blitzing.
> You're the one who's blubbering.



 Really? So Nagato decided to use his best jutsu, the Six Paths of Pain to fend off SM Naruto and then proceed to not even consider SM Naruto as a factor, so that he could defeat a frail Tsunade? 

 Mmm, I'm gonna say no here, Pain clearly considered SM Naruto a huge factor. However, he simply did not believe that Naruto would be capable of moving at such high speeds or be able to destroy Asura Path in one blow as SM Jiraiya hadn't displayed speed or power on that caliber.




> Sorry to say, but Asura and the other pains for that time frame between panels focused on killing Tsunade because she was in the way. It was a legitimate speed feat if you look at the ground he covered in that amount of time, but from what we were shown, Tsunade was their prime target. Not to mention, rasengan at that point literally takes Naruto like 1-2 seconds to form.



 Look at the above. Pain went all that way to revive all of the Paths just so then he could fodderstomp a frail Tsunade? Clearly, Shared Vision was a huge factor against SM Naruto and nothing suggests he didn't utilize it here.

 Are you seriously suggesting that it took 1-2 seconds to form a Rasengan when he managed to do it and then proceed to blitz Asura Path before he chopped off Tsunade's head off who was only an inch away from getting slaughtered? Yeah, no ... You have no proof for that to be the case.




> Im not denying he's faster than asura because he covered more ground, but we don't know when he left the frogs and teleported over there for all we know he was halfway there when Pain had launched his rocket boosters. Thats something we'll simply never know.
> We did see pain staring naruto down after he struck down asura.



 Yet you have no proof of that. It's more reasonable to assume he prepared his blitz at the very least when Asura Path had closed half of the distance as Kishimoto attempted to portray SM Naruto as a speed-demon who also surpassed those who came before him as well as Tsunade's immediate shock afterwards with how far Naruto had grown.

 Deva Path's expression further emphasizes this as Deva Path merely gazes at SM Naruto which is far more significant compared to SM Jiraiya's Shunshin in which Animal Path merely complimented him, hinting that SM Jiraiya's feat was not a blitz while this was.




> And are you also telling me that Kcm Naruto who actually is portrayed to be extremely fast is slower than sm Naruto? Plus my memory is fuzzy, but that same sm Naruto had kcm activated and we are never shown Kimi being hit. We are shown that he or something defeated the Kcm clone.



 The clone was exhausted and it showed as KCM Naruto literally collapsed which is * huge * considering Naruto's the person that could create 13 KCM clones after being shown to be completely exhausted from excessive KCM usage.



> You said he didn't attempt to blitz pretax yet you and everyone else are saying that he'd blitz Kimi yet you just showed me that trying to blitz is out of character for him. We've never seen sm Naruto blitz anyone yet for this one time he'd go out of character and try to blitz him?



 I never said that. It's not out of character, but why would he attempt to blitz Preta Path when the 3 other Paths were within Preta's proximity and could attempt to attack SM Naruto at any time? After all, Naruto and Katsuyu had no knowledge of Deva Path's powers being deactivated which means a Shunshin would be incredibly stupid.



> You'd have a better argument saying sm Naruto could beat Kimi with frog kata than having him do something that is out of character for that mode, not to mention something we've never seen.



 Shunshin is not out-of-character, especially when he's up against one opponent here whereas SM Naruto was up against 4 other bodies with Shared Vision that had the potential of eliminating SM Naruto as well. This isn't the same scenario, so he certainly could use Shunshin, especially when he has Sage Sensing ensuring that he will be able to react effectively while using Shunshin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 1, 2015)

How is this even an argument? Evne without Rasenshuriken and Rasengans, Naruto's physical stats in Sage Mode shit on everything that Kimimaro has. Hell Kimimaro can't even scratch him due to Sage Mode durability...much less touch him due to Naruto's speed and danger sense.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How is this even an argument? Evne without Rasenshuriken and Rasengans, Naruto's physical stats in Sage Mode shit on everything that Kimimaro has. Hell Kimimaro can't even scratch him due to Sage Mode durability...much less touch him due to Naruto's speed and danger sense.



 Well, Kimimaro can pierce through SM Naruto's body considering SM Naruto can be pierced by Chakra Rods, but other than that, I agree.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

the fact that SM Naruto was pierced by Pein's chakra rods doesn't mean that Kimi can pierce him too, it just means that Pein is that strong

SM Naruto stopped a giant, weighting god knows how many tons, rhino running at him at supernatural speeds with his bare hands, and that is a durability feat because that requires him withstanding the impact

and that feat is far above anything Kimi has shown


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Well, Kimimaro can pierce through SM Naruto's body considering SM Naruto can be pierced by Chakra Rods, but other than that, I agree.


Chakra Rods, which are manifestations of Kaguya's will, and can stop Edo Tensei from regenerating like Gudodama...aren't normal weapons and shouldn't be compared to Kimimaro's bones. Kimimaro's bones are stronger than steel to an unknown degree, while a chakra rod can be rated as three-times stronger than steel due to the amount of effort it took just to get a sample off of one (three worn down industrial scalpels were nearby it all worn done to nothing).


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## Empathy (Jun 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> CS2 slows Kimimaro down, and I *really* do doubt that with just the first stage he's faster than Hebi Sasuke & PII Kakashi and on par with Itachi & Gai.
> 
> I don't remember him dodging Rasenshuriken, but if you want to say that he can at least _react_ to Naruto's speed because of it, then okay. At melee range, Naruto still holds a _gigantic_ advantage over Kimimaro in speed and strength, and his taijutsu is better for what it's worth.



I forgot where it's stated that CS2 slows Kimimaro down. I'm not saying you're wrong; I think I remembered that, but then forgot it, and remember it again now that you've brought it up. Anyway, CS1 Kimimaro having 5 tier speed doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially if he's healthy. Sharingan users' speed is applied better than most due to the enhancement of perception and reflexes, but Kimimaro being comparable in speed to Hebi or pre-Hebi Sasuke still doesn't seem unreasonable (both have 4.5s that go up with _juin_, even if Sasuke is a bit faster). 

Agility was always his forte, so his stats reflect that of a high jounin which operates exclusively in that area (similar to Jirobo maxing out in strength). I suppose he could fit between that area and have, say, a 4.8 or something in speed, but that seems like splitting hairs. KCM Naruto pretty much says he's going to throw _Rasenshuriken_ at Kimimaro, [1] we see him charge to throw it, [2] and then we see it explode. [3] Judging by the fact that he was still fighting by the time Itachi released _Edo Tensei_, the correct assumption seems to be that he dodged it. Again, not unreasonable given most of Pain could dodge it and Edo Kimimaro didn't have illness and was in CS1.



> He tears Kimimaro limb from limb.



I probably agree, or at least I wasn't trying to say otherwise.


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

Empathy said:


> I forgot where it's stated that CS2 slows Kimimaro down. I'm not saying you're wrong; I think I remembered that, but then forgot it, and remember it again now that you've brought it up. Anyway, CS1 Kimimaro having 5 tier speed doesn't seem unreasonable to me, especially if he's healthy. Sharingan users' speed is applied better than most due to the enhancement of perception and reflexes, but Kimimaro being comparable in speed to Hebi or pre-Hebi Sasuke still doesn't seem unreasonable (both have 4.5s that go up with _juin_, even if Sasuke is a bit faster).
> 
> Agility was always his forte, so his stats reflect that of a high jounin which operates exclusively in that area (similar to Jirobo maxing out in strength). I suppose he could fit between that area and have, say, a 4.8 or something in speed, but that seems like splitting hairs. KCM Naruto pretty much says he's going to throw _Rasenshuriken_ at Kimimaro, [1] we see him charge to throw it, [2] and then we see it explode. [3] Judging by the fact that he was still fighting by the time Itachi released _Edo Tensei_, *the correct assumption seems to be that he dodged it*. Again, not unreasonable given most of Pain could dodge it and Edo Kimimaro didn't have illness and was in CS1.
> 
> ...



or you know... that he regenerated

he was an edo after all


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Chakra Rods, which are manifestations of Kaguya's will, and can stop Edo Tensei from regenerating like Gudodama...aren't normal weapons and shouldn't be compared to Kimimaro's bones. Kimimaro's bones are stronger than steel to an unknown degree, while a chakra rod can be rated as three-times stronger than steel due to the amount of effort it took just to get a sample off of one (three worn down industrial scalpels were nearby it all worn done to nothing).



 :amazed

 Well, who could argue with that?

 Though personally, as for the topic, I don't believe CS Kimimaro's speed is comparable to CS Hebi Sasuke's even if their Base Speeds are comparable as Hebi Sasuke's Cursed Seal is completely identical to Jugo's implying that Sasuke most likely receives a bigger boost compared to Kimimaro.


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## Empathy (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> or you know... that he regenerated
> 
> he was an edo after all



Regenerated and wasn't sealed? Although, I may not object to the idea of Kimimaro having Sandaime Raikage durability, given he's one of my favorite characters.


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## Bonly (Jun 1, 2015)

DarkTorrent said:


> or you know... that he regenerated
> 
> he was an edo after all



We saw that there was people with sealing jutsu with the samurai and Mifune so if Kimi did get hit then he should've been down long enough to be sealed unless he pulled a Sandaime.

Edit: Empathy speed blitzed me


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## DarkTorrent (Jun 1, 2015)

Bonly said:


> We saw that there was people with sealing jutsu with the samurai and Mifune so if Kimi did get hit then he should've been down long enough to be sealed unless he pulled a Sandaime.
> 
> Edit: Empathy speed blitzed me



those ninjas could have been killed off after the encounter with hanzou, both Chiyo and Kimi were shown to be owning that batalion for some quite time before Naruto arrived at the scene after all, plus it would make sense that Kabuto would prioritize targetting those that counter edos first

or they couldn't have sealed them in time before they regenerated

in the end it was off panel, so trying to fill the gaps in a way that gives Kimi the level of speed way above what he has shown on panel, i.e. close to the level of fastest Kages, is simply unreasonable


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

KCM Naruto literally collapsed afterwards which is unheard of, so in all likelihood, that FRS certainly wasn't anywhere near as fast as KCM Naruto can actually throw it. 

 And honestly, Kimimaro had the Samurai boxed in with his Bones Forest, so him being obliterated and being forced to regenerate isn't unheard of. Mu and Madara regenerated pretty quickly after being hit by the AoE of his 2 Meteors after all. 

 Even then, I doubt Chiyo would be unable to fend off Mifune and a few Samurai long enough before Kimimaro regenerates (which is rather quickly).


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Really? So Nagato decided to use his best jutsu, the Six Paths of Pain to fend off SM Naruto and then proceed to not even consider SM Naruto as a factor, so that he could defeat a frail Tsunade?
> 
> Mmm, I'm gonna say no here, Pain clearly considered SM Naruto a huge factor. However, he simply did not believe that Naruto would be capable of moving at such high speeds or be able to destroy Asura Path in one blow as SM Jiraiya hadn't displayed speed or power on that caliber.
> 
> ...



I don't understand where you're coming from. Nagato always uses his 6 paths of Pain, that is his main jutsu. The combined 6 different bodies if he himself isn't present. They were present against Hanzo, and Jiraiya. He also came in to destroy the Hidden Leaf, I doubt he'd plant to destroy the city with one body when they work best together. He didn't do it solely for Naruto he always used it. Not to mention, he came to the village not knowing Naruto was a sage. Last time I checked, Tsunade was not frail at the beginning of his assault.

He didn't know Naruto was a sage until they actually started engaging in battle so no. No, he was talking to Tsunade, I am saying that at that moment his focus was to kill the Homage of one one of the hidden villages so they could further experience pain by destroying the central pillar
 I'm sure he underestimated Naruto's speed to cover such ground in a short amount of time and thats why asura or whatever it was was destroyed. And no, Naruto did not show the type Jiraiya did in direct combat. His only speed feat that fight was teleporting and attacking Asura who was fixed on Tsunade. Show me how sm Naruto had better speed than this.
jutsu
jutsu
And no,Jiraiya not only speed blitzed animal real, but took it out in one blow jutsu
Plus, I'm pretty sure Pain acknowledged that had he confronted him with all paths at first, he would have lost. Naruto had he blessing of using the intel Jiraiya gave his life for.

Of course Pain went to revive his fallen body. WHY would he not revive it and lower his fighting power? He didn't do it for Naruto or Tsunade, he did it for common sense. Why when you have the ability to revive someone would you not use it? All 6 bodies were part of his overall just. Leaving one behind is pure idiocy.
And on the contrary, like I said, Pain was directly addressing Tsunade for that instant his attention was killing the homage and leaving the leaf with nothing. There is no way to prove what you said at all that one had his eye on Naruto.  I'm sure i wouldn't have been hard for Kishi to draw a half panel of any pain body looking at Naruto but he didn't. He addressed Tsunade and went straight for her. Shared vision doesn't help if you're all looking at the same thing.

If you look at the time he summoned all 6 paths
jutsu
and when Tsunade confronted Pain
Yes there clearly is enough time to form a quick rasengan and use the teleportation jutsu
jutsu unless you believe the timespan of those pages was merely seconds.
You show me proof that a one of the pains was looking at naruto while attacking Tsunade is you want to play that game.


You have no proof of what you say either. Thats why I say it was a surprise attack. We know Sage mode is faster since it covered more ground but we don't know when he used rasengan and activated his teleportation. It could have been when she was an inch from getting killed, it could have been at the beginning of the assault but instead Kishi showed him getting pummeled out of nowhere and then all eyes shifted back to Naruto. he caught everyone off guard. Plus Naruto was never shown in any way to be a fast character until he gained kcm.

And no, Yahiko pain was clearly looking at and speaking to stunned and when Naruto destroyed one of his Pains his attention immediately shifted to him.

Could you please show the scan of Kcm Naruto collapsing when he fought kimi? I'm not calling bs but I just don't remember the chapter at all. I can only remember being shown the main Naruto was exhausted. 

Well Jiraiya blitzed the animal realm with the other Pains in proximity, if Naruto was faster than him like you claim, then he could do the same
Here we have 3 of them standing together:
Link removed
One starts moving:
jutsu
Gets speed blitzed:
jutsu

Here we have Naruto: Probably knowing speed isn't his forte uses frog Kata instead of blitzing like jiraiya 
Link removed
If he was fast enough to blitz, I'm sure it would have been much less of a hassle.

Oh and another thing I just realized that Kishi is going out of his way to show the Pains focusing on Naruto as he attacked. If what you said was true and only 1 pain was focused on stunned, why to draw a panel just like this. He'd done it every other time they made use of shared vision. Why the exception for this one time?
Link removed

Jiraiya blitzes when its 1 on 3 yet Naruto can't  won't?
Makes perfect sense

*Spoiler*: __


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

^ 

 I might respond to that later, but that's a huge long wall of disorganized text. Couldn't you have simply addressed each of my points separately?


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## Six (Jun 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^
> 
> I might respond to that later, but that's a huge long wall of disorganized text. Couldn't you have simply addressed each of my points separately?



Sorry, How do you break it down?
Plus I separated them to match each paragraph you posted.


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## kingcools (Jun 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'd agree with you if we're talking about an unrestricted base Naruto. But this Naruto is restricted to taijutsu. And Kimimaro is the worst lower-tier-match for taijutsu people.​



base naruto is allowed basic rasengan. I'd argue naruto can beat kimi with just a kunai as well, but no need to go that route.
Base naruto + basic rasengan smash kimi to pieces

why is kimi so hyped? he didnt instantly own some genins he faced of against. he wasnt even on kakashi part 1 level going by feats.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Sorry, How do you break it down?
> Plus I separated them to match each paragraph you posted.



 Don't worry about it, I'll attempt to refute it tomorrow.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 1, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Sorry, How do you break it down?
> Plus I separated them to match each paragraph you posted.



Copy-paste this part after hotting the "quote" option below each post: 

[QUOTE=Law Trafalgar;53711725)

And then finish it with the usual:

[/QUOTE)

Then you can cut up the response portions and make your posts pretty.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 1, 2015)

Not as easy as the tards are making it out to be, Kimimaro is exceptionally talented and is rated in the same category of speed as Kakashi and Sasuke, albeit though he doesn't have the sharingan, however, his defense is pretty exceptional. I could see him adjusting the bone density for a proper defense. 

Despite Naruto's boost in most of his categories, specifically strength, his physical durability did not increase as much as I thought it would have in SM, so it would be a problem for him, if even with SM he was unable to break the bones or if they were pointed out at him in the same way it was for Lee.

He's still not going to lose the match, Naruto would still beat him, but it's not as easy as everyone on here is making it out to be.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 2, 2015)

Sage Naruto made someone in the same ballpark of speed as V1 Ē look like a fucking fool and people still doubt Kimimaro doesn't get his ass beat. 

Sorry, but it can be argued at this point that Sage Naruto is considerably above V2 Ē in striking power, there's no fucking way that Kimimaro doesn't have his bones shattered with the first hit, Cursed Seal or not. Tanking pre-timeskip Gaara's compression << tanking a physical impact that's probably multi-block to town-level in destructive capacity.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> With that in mind, Kimi's bone armor being tougher than steel means something. We know for a fact that it makes him much tougher  than Kakashi for example.



You realize that doesn't prove anything in lieu of this argument, right,

When you think being more durable than Kakashi by an unquantified amount is enough to claim Kimimaro's bones are sufficiently hard to take Sage Naruto's hits, you done fucked up



Law Trafalgar said:


> Yet why didn't Jiraiya shatter animal realms hand when animal realm blocked his punch after his failed blind side punch?
> 
> Jeez this is almost as bad if not worse than Tsunade want.



I don't know, clown, maybe it's because Human Path is more durable and physically powerful than Kimimaro, ever consider that?


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> What does Kimimaro being able to remove his spine unaffected have to do with his durability level? If Naruto takes a swing at his head, his skull and brain is being crushed, regardless of his ability to remove bones with no negative effects.


Well if he could do that I'd agree, but he can't. B was eons above Sasuke in strength and couldn't do that. 



> Turrin, just answer me this: do you think Gaara's sand has the destructive capacity to shatter a column of rock a hundred meters in width and multiple times that in length? Because that's what Jiraiya did, with one kick, to one-shot the Yak.


Hundreds of meters in width, please, what an exaggeration. Do I think Gaara's Sand is not far off in destructive capacity of SM-Jiraiya's punches, that Human Realm and Animal Realm survived, yes I do.



> And I just realized something. If the Yak has to be at _minimum_ as durable as the crater it yielded with its head, Jiraiya's kick must be >> Yak's charge. Thus, Jiraiya's striking strength may very well be above Ā's overall since the cliff Ā blew up with his maximum-speed Shunshin wasn't anywhere that big - Liger Bomb even less. So Turrin, your estimation of Sages being above Ā at full power could very be true.


I agree it's above Ei, but that changes nothing for me as Kishi doesn't care about strength. That's why Human Realm who is less durable than Kimi and doesn't have Kimi's regen survived Jiraiya's strikes.

Cite the instances where physical strength mattered, and there wasn't just a horrendous gap in overall level, and than i'll take this seriously.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jun 2, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Well if he could do that I'd agree, but he can't. B was eons above Sasuke in strength and couldn't do that.



Which instance are we talking about here?



> Hundreds of meters in width, please, what an exaggeration. Do I think Gaara's Sand is not far off in destructive capacity of SM-Jiraiya's punches, that Human Realm and Animal Realm survived, yes I do.



It's likely a hundred meters in width, maybe a bit less. In length it's definitely multiple times that.

But, Turrin, if you claim that, you're also saying pre-timeskip Gaara's Sand Tsunami or whatever it's called is above V2 Ē's strongest attack.That just sounds ludicrous, really.

Even if Gaara's sand did have the feats to replicate sometihing on the level of the Yak's charge, punches are naturally more potent because all the energy covers a small surface area (just a fist), whereas the compression covers the entire body.



> I agree it's above Ei, but that changes nothing for me as Kishi doesn't care about strength. That's why Human Realm who is *less durable than Kimi* and doesn't have Kimi's regen survived Jiraiya's strikes.



Seriously, what is this based off of?

Human Path has exactly two durability feats, both of which were from the same fighter who you just agreed is above Ē in striking power. You can't claim inconsistency as a easy dismissal for logical argumentation if the basis for your claim of inconsistency is invalid to begin with. There is nothing contradictory about Human Path surviving Jiraiya's hits.


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## Ersa (Jun 2, 2015)

While he won't oneshot, SM Naruto wins quite easily.

You could argue for a healthy Kimimaro giving very weak Kages a run for their money but no more.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 2, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> You realize that doesn't prove anything in lieu of this argument, right,



I was replying to your remark about steel being a joke and Naruto's punch annihilating a car.

When you take Kakashi's durability into consideration, which is easily above any car that we know off(unless you think we have a car that can go through a tree of that size unharmed) then Kimimaro's tougher than steel armor doesn't become a joke anymore.



> When you think being more durable than Kakashi by an unquantified amount is enough to claim Kimimaro's bones are sufficiently hard to take Sage Naruto's hits, you done fucked up



What is the toughest thing Naruto broke with his hits ?



ATastyMuffin said:


> Sage Naruto made someone in the same ballpark of speed as V1 Ē look like a fucking fool and people still doubt Kimimaro doesn't get his ass beat.
> 
> Sorry, but it can be argued at this point that Sage Naruto is considerably above V2 Ē in striking power,



I think V1 A is comfortably above Naruto in terms of striking power, to the extend that it is hard to compare both.

We know that Suigetsu can go blow to blow with partial transformed Juugo, he can slice through concrete with Zabuza's cleaver and such. And his arms became pudding when he tried to block A's momentumless punch and admitted that his arms would be destroyed if he didn't have the ability to liquify. Zabuza's cleaver was also broken in the process.

Probably the strongest person Naruto struck is Deva realm, and his arms were pretty fine after blocking his kick. Now you can argue that Deva realm is multiple times stronger than Suigetsu, but I don't think there is solid evidence eitherway.



NarutoX28 said:


> Anyone can claim my opinion is baseless when I provided an argument in the post above you. If you want, I can provide another piece of evidence. Even then, Base Ei's Shunshin speed alone is enough to nearly blitz someone within the 4.5 speed tier and to suggest SM Naruto is slower than Base Ei is a baseless claim unless you can provide evidence supporting that.
> 
> For now, your point is moot.



You didn't provide an argument.

KCM Naruto's speed is on par with V1 A, as we've seen. Tsunade was actually very surprised that KCM Naruto was able to keep up with V1 A. 

Are you saying that KCM Naruto is slower than Sage Naruto ?
But then, why would Tsunade be surprised that Naruto was keeping up with V1 A with his most recent power up ? I mean, if Sage mode is faster than KCM, then Tsunade would probably suggest him to stop using his slower mode and switch to the faster one instead.


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## Turrin (Jun 2, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Which instance are we talking about here?


Here's just some general examples of strength now mattering to Kishi:

Injured-Sasuke blocking blows from B, whose around Ei in strength:





Suigetsu blocking B:



Kakashi w/ 3.5 in strength holding back Zabuza with 4 in strength:




Human Realm holding back SM-Jiraiya's strength:



And my favorite.....

Haku w/ 1.5 in strength guarding a duel hit from Lee w/ at least a 4.5 in Str and Gai w/ 5 in Str:






> But, Turrin, if you claim that, you're also saying pre-timeskip Gaara's Sand Tsunami or whatever it's called is above V2 Ē's strongest attack.That just sounds ludicrous, really.


How is that ludicrous Ninjutsu > Physical strength, it always had been and it always will be.

The better question is, are you saying Ei's strikes or even SM-Jiriaya's strikes apply drastically more force than being crushed under 200m worth of Sand.

Gokusa Maisou - _"The swallowed enemy sinks up to two hundred meters underground, while completely unable to move a muscle. Then, the sand glued onto their limbs applies pressure on their whole body, so they can't even twitch a finger when they are sent back to their Maker..."_



> Human Path has exactly two durability feats, both of which were from the same fighter who you just agreed is above Ē in striking power. You can't claim inconsistency as a easy dismissal for logical argumentation if the basis for your claim of inconsistency is invalid to begin with. There is nothing contradictory about Human Path surviving Jiraiya's hits.


I'm not claiming inconsistency. I'm claiming that all shinobi are durable enough to guard or take on hits from people who are dramatically stronger than them, because Kishi doesn't care that much about physical strength. So Human-Realm's feat is not an outlier at all rather it conforms to the norm. 

When it comes to Kimi his regeneration that allows him to recover from pulling his own spine out. So unless Jiraiya's hits go straight through Kimi's body allowing him to obliterate Kimi's brain, nothing else is going to down Kimi. However Kimi's bones are at base "level" tough enough to block Samurai chakra blades and in CS1 he can increase their density further, until at the point of CS2 he can tank being crushed by 200m of Sand. So I find it very hard to imagine that Jiraiya's blows will go straight through Kimi's body, when they failed to do so against Human-Realm, Animal-Realm, and the Yak; and SM-Naruto's blows also failed to go through any of the Realms. And while you can say the Realms and Yak are more durable than Kimi, I certainly see no real sign of that and even beyond those examples if someone like Haku with a 1.5 in strength doesn't have Gai's and Lee's blow which are 7 and 6 Tiers respectively above him in strength go through him, I really doubt SM-Jiraiya or SM-Naruto's blows are going through Kimi extremely durable body.


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## Skywalker (Jun 2, 2015)

Naruto flings him into the stratosphere, Kimimaro isn't hanging with someone like SM Naruto.


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## Marvel (Apr 11, 2018)

SM Naruto’s physical strength is insanely above Kimimario durability and should Ben able to shatter his bones with ease,his SM Enhanced reflexes should take care of Random Bone sprouts.


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## Crow (Apr 11, 2018)

Naruto wins this confortably. What's Kiminaru gonna do against a guy who can tank falling from a mountain unharmed? 
Frog Kata GG


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 11, 2018)

Dude...THIS was the 2015 BD?

That should have been licked IMMEDIATELY 

Base naruto at this point beats Kimi...

SM?

Good joke


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## 1yesman9 (Apr 11, 2018)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kimi is massively underrated here. He has tier 4.5 speed and CS. He is more durable than Naruto and has better taijutsu. IF anyone thinks Naruto no difs him with just taijutsu they'r deluding thsemlves.
> 
> edit :
> 
> Obligatory troll post for sceniaro 2 : Tayuya solos



Databook stats are rediculously inconsistent and have little to none credibility.

Kimi's best footspeed feat is being about relative to unhealthy lee. 

In speed:

Sage Naruto > Pain Path ~ P2 Kakashi > KN1 Naruto ~ CS2 Sasuke > KN0 Naruto > CS1 Sasuke > SRA Sasuke > CE Sasuke = Healthy pts lee > Kimi ~ Unhealthy lee


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## 1yesman9 (Apr 11, 2018)

Oops my blind anti kimi rage made me quote a 2015 post.


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## Zero890 (Apr 11, 2018)

Naruto neg diff.


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## Kisame (Apr 11, 2018)

VotE part I Naruto is > Kimi


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## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Apr 11, 2018)

Amol said:


> Location : Gaara vs Kimimaro
> Intel : None
> Mindset : IC but to kill
> Distance : 40m
> ...


Naruto both scenarios. At that point he was too strong. More balanced would be Wind Arc Naruto vs Kimimaro.


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## savior2005 (Apr 11, 2018)

Was a necro really necessary for this stomp battle???


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