# These Fate/Nasu characters enter some Hiro Mashima verses



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 16, 2017)

That being Fairy Tail and RAVE

Why?

Because I'm trying to cast a wide net to see what sparks activity

The goal being?

To determine the respective strongest character from both RAVE and Fairy Tail that they can defeat on their own

From FZ

1. Archer (Gilgamesh)
2. Rider (Iskandar)
3. Berserker (Lancelot)
4. Lancer (Diarmuid)
5. Caster (Gilles de Reis)
6. Kirei Kotomine
7. Kiritsugu Emiya (make it Assassin EMIYA if he doesn't get too far)

From FSN

1. Archer (EMIYA)
2. Saber (Artoria)
3. Lancer (Cu Chulainn)
4. Berserker (Herakles)
5. Caster (Medea)
6. Rider (Medusa)
7. Assassin (Sasaki Koujirou)
8. Shirou Emiya
9. Rin Tohsaka
10. Sakura Matou

Can add or subtract characters depending on mood or activity actually occurring *shrugs*

How's this go?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 16, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> That being Fairy Tail and RAVE
> 
> Why?
> 
> ...


1. Archer (Gilgamesh): He probably clears with his bullshit in GoB and max Ea

2. Rider (Iskandar): Clears FT most likely, RAVE he probably stops at the 4 demon gods.

3. Berserker (Lancelot): He takes the 10 Commandments and solos everyone because UNRIVALED
Depending on what weapons he gets his hands on? He could boost himself far above his normal state and easily crush them both into the dirt.

4. Lancer (Diarmuid): Probably loses to some lower DB user that has hax. Sieghart might BFR him. Post skip Natsu could beat him as well

5. Caster (Gilles de Reis): If he doesnt have time to summon his huge monster? He gets taken out by Sieg or a fairy tail high tier.

6. Kirei Kotomine: loses to a DB user with hax he cant handle
7. Kiritsugu Emiya (make it Assassin EMIYA if he doesn't get too far): same as Kirei


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2017)

None of these guys are clearing RAVE

Too much hax, dc and speed on part of Lucia and Haru.

FT is an after thought. Gilgamesh and other top servants like Artoria have much greater DC, are generally as fast/ faster (unless that sub-rel feat stuck). No need to go into the more esoteric shit

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> 1. Archer (Gilgamesh): He probably clears with his bullshit in GoB and max Ea



Max Ea does this kind of shit and all.

GoB's best feat of shooting shit at people is repelling slashes from Berserker (Herakles)

Berserker in that regards has feats of countering Archer's  and deflecting a weakened Excalibur from Saber (Illya posits it wouldn't have been able to take 2 lives, implying it at least passed the threshold to take 1).

His durability is derived from his armor having tanked numerous strikes from Saber and enduring Shirou and Saber's  attack



> 2. Rider (Iskandar): Clears FT most likely, RAVE he probably stops at the 4 demon gods.



What do the 4 Demon Gods have going for them again?  Been years since I read the shit.

As far as his feats go, he's got shit like I quoted in  about the release of energy from the Gordius Wheel's Lightning being equal to the energy Kiritsugu Saber or Lancer release with all their physical strength.

Shirou Saber being weaker than Kiritsugu's, yet still being capable of trading blows with Berserker

His own physical strength lets him clash with Kiritsugu Saber



Fate/Zero:Act 14 Part 3 said:


> Rider raised his own blade to block. The blades that clashed together—considering only power, Saber should have had a greater chance of victory due to the advantage of her position; however, the outcome was an even match. Invisible Air could not break past Rider’s defenses, and had at last been deflected away.



And we already know he's fast enough to  

With an A in endurance, he's actually ranked beyond Saber (who even without considering her armor endured various strikes from a Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki [who has demonstrated the physical might to catch Saber's sword strikes bare handed and briefly fend off attacks from Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon] and barely survived losing a clash between her Excalibur and Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish)



> 3. Berserker (Lancelot): He takes the 10 Commandments and solos everyone because UNRIVALED
> Depending on what weapons he gets his hands on? He could boost himself far above his normal state and easily crush them both into the dirt.



Are their really weapons in either series that far beyond the shit Gil fired at him or his own Arondight?  I mean, sure, RAVE sword is more powerful IIRC, but how's he getting his hands on it in the first place?



> 4. Lancer (Diarmuid): Probably loses to some lower DB user that has hax. Sieghart might BFR him. Post skip Natsu could beat him as well



Oh?  What's this stuff based on? 



> 5. Caster (Gilles de Reis): If he doesnt have time to summon his huge monster? He gets taken out by Sieg or a fairy tail high tier.



Probably should stipulate he already has it out.  He's got fuck all going for him other than being a summoner IIRC anyway.

I mean, his strength is D rank, but scaling him to Archer EMIYA seems dubious given  .



> 6. Kirei Kotomine: loses to a DB user with hax he cant handle



Oh?  Why's that?



> 7. Kiritsugu Emiya (make it Assassin EMIYA if he doesn't get too far): same as Kirei



Oh?  Why's that?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> None of these guys are clearing RAVE



Don't remember enough about RAVE at this point to recall why



> Too much hax, dc and speed on part of Lucia and Haru.



Hax I'm probably going to give you

Don't recall what they've got going power and durability wise.  I recall the Overdrive was some kind of country level, but I don't remember if it applied to them.



> FT is an after thought. Gilgamesh and other top servants like Artoria have much greater DC, are generally as fast/ faster (unless that sub-rel feat stuck). No need to go into the more esoteric shit



The hell is the underlined?

And we do know there's a variety of characters here, not just the top servants, right?


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## Sablés (Sep 16, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't remember enough about RAVE at this point to recall why
> 
> Hax I'm probably going to give you
> 
> Don't recall what they've got going power and durability wise.  I recall the Overdrive was some kind of country level, but I don't remember if it applied to them.


It was Overdrive yeah.

A major RAVE thread a while back gave an argument for why it should get scaled naturally. Something about Plue tanking overdrive at ground zero and it having some correlation with the rave stones. 



> The hell is the underlined?





> And we do know there's a variety of characters here, not just the top servants, right?


I'm generalizing so far before going into detail later. 

For the underlined, FT had a meteor feat from Irene placed it at sub-rel (17k or thereabouts) and some would argue Erza scales to that since she met the meteorite head on and slashed it apart. Sounds simple enough but look at the context and the feat is sort of retarded.

The meteor was summoned from space by Irene and Erza destroys it with only one working arm. Only, literally a few seconds before, Irene shattered nearly all of Erza's bones (except the arm) with a casual slap.

Can't find the blog for some reason though. @iwandesu might know.


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

ctrl-f "iwandesu" unless you want to wade through that drivel..


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 17, 2017)

God that looks painful...

Can @iwandesu just quote his shit from in the confines of that miasma of awful and possibly fix the links so I can actually "read" the shit for context?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Are their really weapons in either series that far beyond the shit Gil fired at him or his own Arondight?  I mean, sure, RAVE sword is more powerful IIRC, but how's he getting his hands on it in the first place?


Theres Dark Brings and other various magic weapons lying around, the dude can turn a light pole into a weapon capable of clashing with excalibur, if he gets ahold of something thats way stronger and has some bullshit ability theres really no telling what he could do. FT has weapons with magic in them too.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Oh?  What's this stuff based on?


His NPs generally arent that powerful and just serve to weaken people, he doesnt have anything really big and even implies he doesnt have the stregnth to cut through sabers armor. He probably only scales to some city level shit and cant stop most hax they have. Orge in RAVE has a DB that makes it so physical attacks cant touch him, so im not seeing how Deermud gets past him. 




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Probably should stipulate he already has it out.  He's got fuck all going for him other than being a summoner IIRC anyway.
> 
> I mean, his strength is D rank, but scaling him to Archer EMIYA seems dubious given  .


Then he makes it to top tiers in both verses. RAVE people have hax like Haru who can just seal his book away and are too fast for him, FT is also too fast and could destroy his monster.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Oh?  Why's that?


I cant recall significant speed feats he scales to or what DC he has. Deep Snow can control peoples blood and can turn him into a meat puppet.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Oh?  Why's that?


Same as above, i dont know shit about Assassin Kerry


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 17, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Theres Dark Brings and other various magic weapons lying around, the dude can turn a light pole into a weapon capable of clashing with excalibur, if he gets ahold of something thats way stronger and has some bullshit ability theres really no telling what he could do. FT has weapons with magic in them too.



I mean, that makes them durable, but the strength behind the blows is just his physical strength. 

And I get that, but Arondight is pretty potent as it is.  What exactly is sitting around in FT that's worth more than that?



> His NPs generally arent that powerful and just serve to weaken people, he doesnt have anything really big and even implies he doesnt have the stregnth to cut through sabers armor.



He's able to trade blows with Kiritsugu Saber through a combination of his B rank strength and skill

Said Saber beyond Shirou's Saber that can already throw down with Berserker

So this



> He probably only scales to some city level shit



Is wrong



> and cant stop most hax they have



Honestly don't even remember what kinds of resistance B rank magic resistance grants

IIRC, Archer was able to shrug off Medea's localized time freeze with D rank resistance at any rate and was able to keep Rider's mystic eye of petrification of fucking him over outright

He should at least get that much, but I don't recall how much that'll help



> Orge in RAVE has a DB that makes it so physical attacks cant touch him, so im not seeing how Deermud gets past him.



Doesn't Gae Dearg cut through magic?  If the effect itself is a product of DB, wouldn't that be akin to magic and its effects ignored?



> Then he makes it to top tiers in both verses. RAVE people have hax like Haru who can just seal his book away and are too fast for him, FT is also too fast and could destroy his monster.



FT have shit beyond Rider's Gordius Wheel, Archer GoB, and Saber's regular physical strikes?



> I cant recall significant speed feats he scales to or what DC he has.



He's fast enough where True Assassin can't outright kill his ass, fast and strong enough to deflect his thrown projectiles and he's able to throw his black keys hard enough to send True Assassin flying backwards and puncture his limbs (bearing in mind True Assassin is rated B in strength and C in Endurance [also notably survived Sakura Rider swinging his ass around like a flail])

And that's without the whole command seals thing that he can apparently use to reach the level of a Servant (or so I've been recently told) and the fact he's out of shape/not in his prime during the 5th Holy Grail War

Am admittedly still working on collecting Kirei's feats still though.



> Deep Snow can control peoples blood and can turn him into a meat puppet.



That's not hax fyi

That requires his ability to manipulate blood exceeds the character he's manipulating's physical strength



> Same as above, i dont know shit about Assassin Kerry



He's at least durable enough to take a punch or 2 from Kirei at any rate IIRC and fast enough to fight him with 3 to 4 times Accel IIRC

Know jack shit about FGO Kiritsugu myself


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I mean, that makes them durable, but the strength behind the blows is just his physical strength.
> 
> And I get that, but Arondight is pretty potent as it is.  What exactly is sitting around in FT that's worth more than that?


He also turned a plain jet into a threat to other servants like Gil and Saber so he enhances them all around. FT has Erza with all her armor and swords, i know theres more but i cant recall any others off the top of my head.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> He's able to trade blows with Kiritsugu Saber through a combination of his B rank strength and skill
> 
> Said Saber beyond Shirou's Saber that can already throw down with Berserker
> 
> ...


So hes like, island level then? i guess hax is really the only way to deal with him then in FT.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Honestly don't even remember what kinds of resistance B rank magic resistance grants
> 
> IIRC, Archer was able to shrug off Medea's localized time freeze with D rank resistance at any rate and was able to keep Rider's mystic eye of petrification of fucking him over outright
> 
> ...


 IIRC Dark Brings are actually separate from Magic in RAVE, they are just special abilities. Also Archer was trapped in the time stop afaik and relied on K&B surprising her to break out. Shuda can bomb peoples brains and other organs and hes island level.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> FT have shit beyond Rider's Gordius Wheel, Archer GoB, and Saber's regular physical strikes?


They have hax and BFR. They could probably beat it down enough as a group to get to Caster himself considering theres quite a few people in the city level range.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 17, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He also turned a plain jet into a threat to other servants like Gil and Saber so he enhances them all around. FT has Erza with all her armor and swords, i know theres more but i cant recall any others off the top of my head.



I know what he used it on, I'm just saying that all still didn't compare to his trump card in Arondight in shear power anyway



> So hes like, island level then? i guess hax is really the only way to deal with him then in FT.



Yep

Because nothing says power creep like expanding your universe with a mobile game



> IIRC Dark Brings are actually separate from Magic in RAVE, they are just special abilities.



Can't say I remember either way

I'm sure @Kurou might be able to say though 



> Also Archer was trapped in the time stop afaik and relied on K&B surprising her to break out.



Nah



> Shuda can bomb peoples brains and other organs and hes island level.



Been so long, don't remember that, but cool



> They have hax and BFR. They could probably beat it down enough as a group to get to Caster himself considering theres quite a few people in the city level range.



Hard to say given how fast it regenerates and how little shit from Rider was actually doing IIRC


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Hard to say given how fast it regenerates and how little shit from Rider was actually doing IIRC


Most people in FT have way better AoE than rider tbf, theyd be taking out larger chunks and theres people with poison to slow down regen. Also Larcade has some bs pleasure magic that is some kind of hax? He definitely beats Gilles with his huge boner for Jeanne

Oh and theres a lady with timestop and she can recall damage to people so that is a huge fuck you to the monsters regen once they beat it up enough


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2017)

Yeah Dark Brings are seperate from magic but they can enhance magic related abities. Like Haja's DB which gives him infinite mana ect


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2017)

Also a note

The 5 mother DB like the one Ogre had arent a product of a ritual like the other DB brought to the world but actually part of Endless himself


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## Garcher (Sep 17, 2017)

Erza solos

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 17, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Most people in FT have way better AoE than rider tbf, theyd be taking out larger chunks and theres people with poison to slow down regen.



AOE is only a boon if they have comparable power to Rider's to take advantage of it.  As surface area increases, the density of energy over a given surface decreases rapidly.  For megatons to effect shit equally to gigatons, the surface area needs to be much smaller than the gigatons to cause similar damage



> Also Larcade has some bs pleasure magic that is some kind of hax? He definitely beats Gilles with his huge boner for Jeanne



Would this really matter to a guy willing to kill and torture the object of his affections?



> Oh and theres a lady with timestop and she can recall damage to people so that is a huge fuck you to the monsters regen once they beat it up enough



I forget, did Cthulu lite have magic resistance?

Because the time stop would need to be beyond Medea's if it even has D rank.  

Bearing in mind, Medea vs Aoko is in Medea's favor IIRC.



Kurou said:


> Yeah Dark Brings are seperate from magic but they can enhance magic related abities. Like Haja's DB which gives him infinite mana ect



Sounds good then


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2017)

Aoko would punch Medea in the mouth


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## Qinglong (Sep 17, 2017)

it's in medea's favor as long as Aoko uses Magecraft (Starmine and Starbow)

if she uses Blue there's no answer


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko would punch Medea in the mouth


Then gets drop-kicked by her older sister


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

Also @Kurou  Idr, does Overdrive scale well to Haru and Lucia?


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Then gets drop-kicked by her older sister


Aoko drop kicked her but ok 




Qinglong said:


> it's in medea's favor as long as Aoko uses Magecraft (Starmine and Starbow)
> 
> if she uses Blue there's no answer



I thought that was more because Aoko cant do other magecraft beside Starmine/Bow


Pretty sure if she can put enough power into it she could scrap Medea 

Or just punch her


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## Kurou (Sep 17, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Also @Kurou  Idr, does Overdrive scale well to Haru and Lucia?



Considering Lucia is literally wearing a completed Sinclaire(the 5 mother DB) which became the Endless DB around his neck and harnessing its power Id say so


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 17, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> AOE is only a boon if they have comparable power to Rider's to take advantage of it.  As surface area increases, the density of energy over a given surface decreases rapidly.  For megatons to effect shit equally to gigatons, the surface area needs to be much smaller than the gigatons to cause similar damage
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Its hax magic that works based on people's personal pleasure, so yea itll work just fine.

Also The FT girl has much better range and feats with her timestop vs medea's little bubble.


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## Qinglong (Sep 17, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko drop kicked her but ok
> 
> 
> 
> ...



most likely that too (but considering her comments to Roa she cobbled the shit together in the first place so she should know other magecraft to even be able to do that), but that is what she calls her magecraft

she can do different shit once she uses Blue

but she just uses Blue to blow stuff up most of the time


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## Fang (Sep 17, 2017)

What's preventing Gilgamesh giving some of his more exotic NPs to Lancelot to make maximum use of KoH and EAM?


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## Sablés (Sep 17, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> To determine the respective strongest character from both RAVE and Fairy Tail that they can defeat on their own


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## Brightsteel (Sep 18, 2017)

ultimate GARdener Soujuurou would one punch anyone in Fairy Tail, right? 

(this is a tangent i know)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 19, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko would punch Medea in the mouth



Pretty sure Nasu's offered otherwise *shrugs*

Both in one of his non-answers regarding modern magecraft and a more straight forward example where he mentioned no particular exceptions IIRC

You'd think it makes no sense given Arcueid vs Aoko is something Aoko has a minor chance in, but how Arcueid's power functions doesn't leave her static, but rather always slightly stronger than her opponent while on Earth

Thus you can actually reconcile seemingly contradicted WoG from him for once.



Qinglong said:


> it's in medea's favor as long as Aoko uses Magecraft (Starmine and Starbow)
> 
> if she uses Blue there's no answer



Wasn't there one where he didn't stipulate about Blue being used too?

Could have sworn there was one that you can infer Blue wouldn't matter.



Kurou said:


> I thought that was more because Aoko cant do other magecraft beside Starmine/Bow



Given the quote refers to both Aoko and Touko?

Why would you assume this?



> Pretty sure if she can put enough power into it she could scrap Medea



Her barriers are as durable as Berserker's skin.  Aoko's packing the power of Caladbolg?

What exactly justifies that thought?



> Or just punch her



If she acts like she did vs Rin?

Sure

If she's not an idiot and uses the reinforcement she did on Kuzuki?

Probably not



Kurou said:


> Considering Lucia is literally wearing a completed Sinclaire(the 5 mother DB) which became the Endless DB around his neck and harnessing its power Id say so



I don't doubt this, but could you link the specific dots you're connecting for a refresher?  Makes it easier to call upon the shit later for citation purposes.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Its hax magic that works based on people's personal pleasure, so yea itll work just fine.



Not what I meant

How's the shit work in the first place I suppose I should be asking first



> Also The FT girl has much better range and feats with her timestop vs medea's little bubble.



Why's range matter here as a metric of its potency exactly?

I don't know the mechanics of Blue, but if Medea powerscales from that at all, her own time magic may or may not powerscale from that


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Aoko blew up the moon 


As for your other stuff ill get around to it later. Maybe


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 19, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko blew up the moon



You mean she blew up Flat Snark, with modern magecraft, that was pretending to be the moon no further away than 1 or so kilometers 

You do realize that would powerscale to Medea regardless given the whole modern magecraft thing, right? 



> As for your other stuff ill get around to it later. Maybe



No rush


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Pretty sure it was further away than 1km. She initially said it was 600 meters since that was her max. But that was before absorbing all of the surrounding energy.  Then it said the formula she used to draw in and purify the energy around stretched for 100k km 

I could be wrong tho


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## saint rider 890 (Sep 19, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko blew up the moon
> 
> 
> As for your other stuff ill get around to it later. Maybe



WoG say Medea stronger than Aoko .


That mean Medea can destroy Moon too , right ?


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

In magecraft yeah


But considering Aoko was hopped up on retarded amounts of energy youd have to prove medea can harness the same amount of energy


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 19, 2017)

Right, going to highlight the feats of those I can bother for right now too

 covering Gil, some Berserker, and Iskandar



ChaosTheory123 said:


> 1. Archer (EMIYA)



Destructive Capacity

Is able to put up a defensive effort against Lancer and Saber, able to deflect and parry Caster's magic, able to trade strikes with Assassin, and Shirou Emiya employs his imperfect imitations of his strength and skill to block and parry Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki's and Saber Alter's strikes

He's also outright  wielding , so that's a thing

Sword spam would be on the level of Shirou and Gilgamesh's

 as demonstrated in the link and Hrunting was shown capable of being able to match and surpass Saber's physical strikes and break  Rho Aias

Speed

Notably capable of fighting Berserker (who can deflect )

Also Saber and Lancer, but they're already shown under strength shit anyway *shrugs*

Durability

Namely survived impalement via Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon, his body survived Saber's full powered assault before disappearing due to fatal wounds, and is comparable to Saber and True Assassin with a C in Endurance (True Assassin has  survived being flailed around by Rider on top of his comparable rank to Saber)



> 2. Saber (Artoria)



Destructive Capacity

Capable of trading blows with Berserker and Excalibur is comparable/superior to the conditional power of 

Speed 

Covered via Berserker

Durability

Briefly tanked an attack from Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, barely survived losing a clash between her Excalibur and Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, has endured various strikes from Berserker, has endured various strikes from a Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki (who has demonstrated the physical might to catch Saber's sword strikes bare handed and briefly fend off attacks from Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon), and has defended against Rider's Pegasus with Invisible Air to some success

Can't bother gathering any more citation at the moment


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 19, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Pretty sure it was further away than 1km. She initially said it was 600 meters since that was her max. But that was before absorbing all of the surrounding energy.  Then it said the formula she used to draw in and purify the energy around stretched for 100k km
> 
> I could be wrong tho



I don't recall the exact quotes on that (I know what you're talking about with the magic she was drawing on, but I didn't take it to mean anything about where Flat Snark was located), but Flat Snark had to be in the confines of the park, hence hiding itself as the moon in the first place



Kurou said:


> In magecraft yeah
> 
> 
> But considering Aoko was hopped up on retarded amounts of energy youd have to prove medea can harness the same amount of energy



Not difficult to do given its a bit feat compared to any comparison I can make to Berserker *shrugs*


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Remember Flat Snark had been slowly reality warping the places size. Aoko even mentioned (before they even got to their fight) that the park had to be the same size as the city by then.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 19, 2017)

Sure, but how large is the city again?

Bear in mind, you're not going to get a meaningful size out of Flat Snark given its only about 0.5 degrees in size per emulating the moon

3,474 km across from 380,000 km away

Shouldn't need to be amazing at math to figure out how large it'll be from much closer


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## Qinglong (Sep 19, 2017)

> *Q: It has been said that a certain Aozaki cannot even defeat a serious Caster, is this "certain Aozaki" Aoko Aozaki? Is this an assessment based on Aoko using True Magic?*
> 
> *A:* "A certain Aozaki" includes both Aoko and Touko. In a *magecraft battle by modern standards*, a "magus" who is capable of defeating a serious Caster does not exist.



From TYPE-MOON Fes.Official Pamphlet 10th Anniversary Q & A Booklet

quote only refers to Aozaki fighting as a Magus with modern standards, also the fact it includes Touko who can't use True Magic further leads me to believe it isn't counting her using it since Arcueid avoids Aoko precisely because she doesn't want to deal with it


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Iunno 

I was just reciting what was said in the novel

That shit sounds like work


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Aoko is asss as a magus anyway.


Despite their efficiency her circuits are still of really bad quality


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

South America

Im on my phone so to lazy to post links to each page. Translations a bit wonky but this is basically the chapter where they tell you Endless true form is revealed when the 5 mother db (which are named the pieces of Sinclaire, the same Sinclaire that was causing OD) come together. 

You can even see him transform into the DB and later Lucia's using it when fighting Haru


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Oh

Well thats unfortunate.


Its Rave 245 anyway


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 19, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Aoko is asss as a magus anyway.
> 
> 
> Despite their efficiency her circuits are still of really bad quality


i thought Aoko's were small in number but their quality was just that fucking amazing.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Pretty sure Nasu's offered otherwise *shrugs*
> 
> Both in one of his non-answers regarding modern magecraft and a more straight forward example where he mentioned no particular exceptions IIRC
> 
> ...


The magic works by drawing on peoples pleasures/desires or something and enhancing them, he made people fall asleep or basically orgasm to death among other things. it was fucking weird

Also im pretty sure Medea doesnt scale to Modern True Magic since she cant use it.


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

No

Aoko's circuits are super crap on top of having only like 2. But the efficiency of her circuits is fucking ridiculous. 

Basically she can harness shit loads of energy but she cant do anything complex with it which is why she sticks to simple magecraft


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## Kurou (Sep 19, 2017)

Touko has extraordinary Circuits. I believe hers are like EX rank or some shit and she has a lot


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 19, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> 1. Archer (Gilgamesh)
> 2. Rider (Iskandar)
> 3. Berserker (Lancelot)
> 4. Lancer (Diarmuid)
> ...



Only Gilgamesh with EA can clear.

All the other Servants are weak except for Saber and Lancelot, and they have no hax or any edge in base stats.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> 1. Archer (EMIYA)
> 2. Saber (Artoria)
> 3. Lancer (Cu Chulainn)
> 4. Berserker (Herakles)
> ...



They all die.

Same as above.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> God that looks painful...
> 
> Can @iwandesu just quote his shit from in the confines of that miasma of awful and possibly fix the links so I can actually "read" the shit for context?



*Spoiler*: __


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 20, 2017)

Isn't Aoko's main strategy lolbeamspam? She's just retardedly good at it to the point her mature self can hand Touko her ass without really trying.


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## Kurou (Sep 20, 2017)

Its not a strategy but yeah basically


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 20, 2017)

Hey, as long as it works.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 20, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Its not a strategy but yeah basically


If you win its a strategy


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Only Gilgamesh with EA can clear.



Sure, but I'm not asking about that

I'm asking about the strongest they can fight in each verse individually



> All the other Servants are weak except for Saber and Lancelot, and they have no hax or any edge in base stats.



The hell are you calling weak? 

Did you actually read/watch anything I posted  or ?

The only reason I even make threads is when I go through a series to give it an overhaul



> *Spoiler*: __



I feel I'm missing context here, because the feat itself is over the top, but not "stupid" as I've seen been claimed from just this sample alone

What are you omitting?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Sure, but I'm not asking about that
> 
> I'm asking about the strongest they can fight in each verse individually



They clear all the way to the Spriggans who are somewhere between two to triple digit mach, with some hax for everyone but Irene and August that get the mach17K scaling+hax and probably island level.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> The hell are you calling weak?



All the Servants from the 5th war are weak save Gil and Saber, as in they are mid tier servants without many dangerous conceptual effects or great physical feats.

-EMIYA is strong but he's a moron that rarely proyects anything other than K&B
-Kojiro is only dangerous from short distance and his TG can be blocked by regular durability.
-Medusa has her pegasus or petrification, none of which should matter much against mages with comparable speed and numbers advantage.
-Medea fighting style is beam rain and Suzuki reinforced.
-Berserker has no offensive NP, is hard to kill but there's too many BFR or sealing skills in FT and Rave.
-Cu is Gae Bolg dependent.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I feel I'm missing context here, because the feat itself is over the top, but not "stupid" as I've seen been claimed from just this sample alone
> 
> What are you omitting?



Erza shouldn't logically be able to do it, for powerscalling issues.
-Isn't a top tier
-Was getting her ass kicked by Irene who actually is one.
-Erza gets all her bones broken (at least dislocated joints and fisures, she isn't realy loosing her form right?) except her arm.
-The meteorite is the best move of Irene.
-The feat happens.

*Spoiler*: __ 









But, she always does this kind of thing, hence the meme "is because she is Erza", the explanaition for the time she overcame having her five senses removed and replaced with pain and still was somehow able to fight and win against the character that did that to her, who was also stronger two chapters before. In the nakama power world she is the biggest example of unexplained bullshit.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Qinglong (Sep 23, 2017)

Yeah other than projecting Caladbolg II a few times, or Hrunting in HA, or five different ways to kill Heracles, yeah he only uses K&B like a moron even though he can deflect caster's beams with them and they give him a boost

what a dumbass


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## shade0180 (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I feel I'm missing context here, because the feat itself is over the top, but not "stupid" as I've seen been claimed from just this sample alone
> 
> What are you omitting?



Erza has no active regen. Her magic is really low, all her bones are broken, she literally was beaten to a pulp to the point she couldn't stand.. and then that shit happened.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I feel I'm missing context here, because the feat itself is over the top, but not "stupid" as I've seen been claimed from just this sample alone
> 
> What are you omitting?


Erza had all her bones broken a few pages earlier, then she proceeds to shatter the meteor with 1 hand. The character who summoned the meteor is the one who broke all her bones with a simple hand swipe.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Yeah other than projecting Caladbolg II a few times, or Hrunting in HA, or five different ways to kill Heracles, yeah he only uses K&B like a moron even though he can deflect caster's beams with them and they give him a boost
> 
> what a dumbass


Hes also got Gae Bolg and an Excal suicide move. Hes just slower than the top tiers of both verses


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Yeah other than projecting Caladbolg II a few times, or Hrunting in HA, or five different ways to kill Heracles, yeah he only uses K&B like a moron even though he can deflect caster's beams with them and they give him a boost
> 
> what a dumbass



Sure he can use broken Phantasm as arrows, but most of the time he fights with K&B, we never saw how he defeated Heracles six times so there's no way to know which A rank NP he copied.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hes also got Gae Bolg and an Excal suicide move. Hes just slower than the top tiers of both verses



Stuff that isn't swords cost more, and I think there's a quote where EMIYA said GB would be difficult for some reason, Excal image is also weaker than the real deal despite being a suicidal move.

His best move is sword spam, if he would actually use it.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -EMIYA is strong but he's a moron that rarely proyects anything other than K&B


We're in the OBD mate.No CIS or PIS. If he gets UBW, he rapes most of FT.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -Medusa has her pegasus or petrification, none of which should matter much against mages with comparable speed and numbers advantage.


Excpet it would since he petrification works as soon as she looks at you.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Medea fighting style is beam rain and Suzuki reinforced


Bullshit. Go play F/S/N again. She can do much more than that.
Rule Breaker is a big "fuck you" to FT. Archer can also use it so .. yeah


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -Cu is Gae Bolg dependent.


1.And ????
2. That's not even true since he has runes.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> We're in the OBD mate.No CIS or PIS. If he gets UBW, he rapes most of FT.



Maybe, but wasn't that costly in stamina?



reyatsuguy said:


> Excpet it would since he petrification works as soon as she looks at you.



Magic resistance stales it and again it's bad against equal or faster opponents that also have numbers advantage.



reyatsuguy said:


> Bullshit. Go play F/S/N again. She can do much more than that.



Like what? The time stop bubble nd mind control?

Beam spam is much more practical and her main attack.



reyatsuguy said:


> 1.And ????
> 2. That's not even true since he has runes.



One target at a time and range limiter, he isn't spamming that either.


----------



## TYPE-Rey (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Maybe, but wasn't that costly in stamina?


Not to the extent that it would make him unable to fight properly.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Magic resistance stales it and again it's bad against equal or faster opponents that also have numbers advantage.


And how would you relativize Fate's magic resistance to Ft's ?


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Like what? The time stop bubble nd mind control


Barrier creation, Teleportation, Rule Breaker etc..


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> One target at a time and range limiter, he isn't spamming that either.


1. He can throw it so no range limiter.
2. There isn't any mention that he can't spam it. IF anything it's the other way around since GB is describes as not being a costly  NP.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> And how would you relativize Fate's magic resistance to Ft's ?



Well EMIYA has D and B in mana, ¿ Is there a reason for that to mean it is better than FT magic resistance?



reyatsuguy said:


> Barrier creation, Teleportation, Rule Breaker etc..



Mostly useless, Barriers can be pierced by DC, teleportation is just mobility and rule breaker is a small knife, and Medea sucks at melee.



reyatsuguy said:


> 1. He can throw it so no range limiter.
> 2. There isn't any mention that he can't spam it. IF anything it's the other way around since GB is describes as not being a costly NP.



The throw has no conceptual effect.

He only uses it when he thinks he needs it, when in range, and even then he considers the thrown version the strongest form. 

Not being costly isn't the same as just using it repeatedly either, and even then it may just miss as it did with Saber.


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## Kurou (Sep 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> And ?



The thrown version doesnt get the auto hit effect


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## Qinglong (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Sure he can use broken Phantasm as arrows, but most of the time he fights with K&B, we never saw how he defeated Heracles six times so there's no way to know which A rank NP he copied.



Because K&B are cheap + they give him boosts so why wouldn't he use them

The fact remains he can and will use other projections as necessary, even if we don't know exactly which ones were used on Herk, we know for a fact the same one wouldn't have worked multiple times, so different ones were used


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## Solar (Sep 23, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> We're in the OBD mate.No CIS or PIS. If he gets UBW, he rapes most of FT.


CIS is on by default in the OBD.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Sablés (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> -EMIYA is strong but he's a moron


It's actually the opposite. His strength is average but he's a pragmatic fighter who makes the most of his skills and can allow him to beat other servants above his standing.


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## Kurou (Sep 23, 2017)

>EMIYA
>strong

I mean if we change the definition sure

Reactions: Funny 3


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> They clear all the way to the Spriggans who are somewhere between two to triple digit mach, with some hax for everyone but Irene and August that get the mach17K scaling+hax and probably island level.



Sounds fair

Why do they scale to mac 17k if the feat in question is largely bullshit as you laid out below though? 



> All the Servants from the 5th war are weak save Gil and Saber, as in they are mid tier servants without many dangerous conceptual effects or great physical feats.



Berserker has probably the best physical feats in the franchise with the NP he's overcome with his pure physical force

Which I already highlighted much earlier with various links

Others might be stronger by comparison, but raw feats no one's beyond him in that category without... more Japanese stereotype weirdness showing through



> -EMIYA is strong but he's a moron that rarely proyects anything other than K&B



He doesn't really need to project anything beyond them most of the time

And let's be blunt, outside of circumstances like holding off Berserker, going all out in the Fate franchise without scoping out what your opponent can do first is by plot regarded as suicidal

As far as explanations go, its leagues better than in Star Wars where they just forget they have super powers at the convenience of the plot



> -Kojiro is only dangerous from short distance and his TG can be blocked by regular durability.



How many characters in these franchises even have the durability to eat strikes from a guy that through combination of skill and strength can block and parry strikes from Saber?



> -Medusa has her pegasus or petrification, none of which should matter much against mages with comparable speed and numbers advantage.



She can petrify you by looking in your general direction, does anyone in Fairy Tail/RAVE have resistance feats to that kind of magic? 

She's also a B in strength, beyond Koujirou.  You can thank Grand Order for their feats bringing about inflation, but the comparisons existing in the original source material still carry over with new resources



> -Medea fighting style is beam rain and Suzuki reinforced.



How exactly is this weak when she has 2-3 unique spells in reserve that can kill Berserker?



> -Berserker has no offensive NP, is hard to kill but there's too many BFR or sealing skills in FT and Rave.



I'm kind of confused

You do know you don't need hax to be considered strong, right?



> -Cu is Gae Bolg dependent.



He fought Gil for half a day IIRC and can trade blows with Artoria

I mean, they're not hax out the ass, any of them, but calling them weak in terms of general stats is pretty stupid

Erza shouldn't logically be able to do it, for powerscalling issues.


> -Isn't a top tier



That's a non-issue



> -Was getting her ass kicked by Irene who actually is one.



Stil  a non-issue



> -Erza gets all her bones broken (at least dislocated joints and fisures, she isn't realy loosing her form right?) except her arm.



This itself is an issue, but only if the move that fucked her up was weaker than the meteor that she can survive plowing into



> -The meteorite is the best move of Irene.



So that's the issue then, got it

Weaker shit wrecked her body, yet she can somehow collide with a much stronger attack and not suffer much/any worse injury

Thus a closed circle forms and the incongruity of this feat gets it axed, makes sense



> But, she always does this kind of thing, hence the meme "is because she is Erza", the explanaition for the time she overcame having her five senses removed and replaced with pain and still was somehow able to fight and win against the character that did that to her, who was also stronger two chapters before. In the nakama power world she is the biggest example of unexplained bullshit.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



I mean, she can do it all the time, but you still need it to not form a chain of circular logic to be usable *shrugs*


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

Kurou said:


> >EMIYA
> >strong
> 
> I mean if we change the definition sure



In sheer raw power of some of the stuff stored in UBW?

He's got enough to counter GoB's raw power roughly equally, he's got at least 5 attacks/weapons of unique quality that can kill Berserker, and a conceptual shield strong enough to block almost 20% of an attack as powerful as Excalibur Morgan 

I mean, he's not the top end servant, but he's got enough weapons laying around where he's a threat to many *shrugs*


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Sounds fair
> 
> Why do they scale to mac 17k if the feat in question is largely bullshit as you laid out below though?



Is bullshit for high tier Erza with all her bones broken, Irene and August are in the level of the dragons or above and literally could snap Erza's bones with a finger flick.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Berserker has probably the best physical feats in the franchise with the NP he's overcome with his pure physical force
> 
> Which I already highlighted much earlier with various links
> 
> Others might be stronger by comparison, but raw feats no one's beyond him in that category without... more Japanese stereotype weirdness showing through



Yeah but that's all he has, even his fighting skill is diminished.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> He doesn't really need to project anything beyond them most of the time
> 
> And let's be blunt, outside of circumstances like holding off Berserker, going all out in the Fate franchise without scoping out what your opponent can do first is by plot regarded as suicidal
> 
> As far as explanations go, its leagues better than in Star Wars where they just forget they have super powers at the convenience of the plot



But he really is weak in melee, he needs time for BP and we don't know what he used against Berserker, the most broken thing we know he could use is maybe Gae Bolg.

He would use UBW only as a last resort because it's draining and even then that's supposed to not be "more than an annoyance" for anyone other than Gilgamesh, which sounds like bullshit but there it is.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> She can petrify you by looking in your general direction, does anyone in Fairy Tail/RAVE have resistance feats to that kind of magic?
> 
> She's also a B in strength, beyond Koujirou. You can thank Grand Order for their feats bringing about inflation, but the comparisons existing in the original source material still carry over with new resources



Is a standard setting of "stronger character cant be haxed if the diference is big enough"

Space distortion and transmutation magic has been negated.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I mean, she can do it all the time, but you still need it to not form a chain of circular logic to be usable *shrugs*



The bullshit is that she got exponentially stronger mid fight, that's why the feat doesn't scale to her but it does to the character that made the attack and the god tiers.

That seems to be the consensus in the feat's blog anyway 

Other top tiers of lower rank actually had a previous MHS+ feat too.


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## Kurou (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> In sheer raw power of some of the stuff stored in UBW?
> 
> He's got enough to counter GoB's raw power roughly equally, he's got at least 5 attacks/weapons of unique quality that can kill Berserker, and a conceptual shield strong enough to block almost 20% of an attack as powerful as Excalibur Morgan
> 
> I mean, he's not the top end servant, but he's got enough weapons laying around where he's a threat to many *shrugs*




Translation:

He's weak but hes stolen some big guns


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## saint rider 890 (Sep 23, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Translation:
> 
> He's weak but hes stolen some big guns



" You should feel ashamed! Dual-wielding pistols, damn you--- who decided that would be cool to use...! Damn it, I wanted to use it too!"

because he was out of clay and just wanted extra insurance

He get butthurt because his alter have dual gun .


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Is bullshit for high tier Erza with all her bones broken, Irene and August are in the level of the dragons or above and literally could snap Erza's bones with a finger flick.



The issue is the only point of comparison where these feats seem to happen are through Ezra

Yet Ezra accomplishing them is a bunch of circular logic, thus an unusable link in the chain

With that sole connection gone, you have nothing to actually connect the feat to top tiers with

How do you apply it to the top tiers?  Is Ezra not the only one that had to deal with this feat or similar?



> Yeah but that's all he has, even his fighting skill is diminished.



That's all he needs *shrugs*



> But he really is weak in melee



And this is where I can tell you never actually read or watched those links

Because this is flat out false



> he needs time for BP



Clearly not too much if he killed Berserker 5 times



> and we don't know what he used against Berserker,



We don't need to, we just need to know they all compare to Caladbolg



> the most broken thing we know he could use is maybe Gae Bolg.



That's one weapon, and you don't need to be broken to be strong

Often broken doesn't save you against raw stats



> He would use UBW only as a last resort because it's draining



>Draining
>Lasts 2 days after deploying it once after having nearly all his mana shredded by Lancer 
>Can still deploy Rho Aias nearly vanished to defend Shirou from Ea and save Rin from the Holy Grail via Sword Spam



> and even then that's supposed to not be "more than an annoyance" for anyone other than Gilgamesh, which sounds like bullshit but there it is.



It sounds like bull shit because it is bull shit

Shirou, for all his psychometric powers, really undersells its utility

Especially when Archer killed Berserker 5 times without it



> Is a standard setting of "stronger character cant be haxed if the diference is big enough"



That's not a standard

Nor is it how Nasu magic functions



> Space distortion and transmutation magic has been negated.



Have they?



> The bullshit is that she got exponentially stronger mid fight, that's why the feat doesn't scale to her but it does to the character that made the attack and the god tiers.



That's nonsensical because they're scaling to something Ezra herself can't actually accomplish from Ezra accomplishing it

That's yet another headache inducing circle



> Other top tiers of lower rank actually had a previous MHS+ feat.



That's fine, use that


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> And this is where I can tell you never actually read or watched those links
> 
> Because this is flat out false



He was going to die to Cu onesidedly, was only hanging because his eye of the mind skill helping him dodge lethal hit while having no other choice than tanking all others.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Clearly not too much if he killed Berserker 5 times



It's 20 seconds more or less.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> We don't need to, we just need to know they all compare to Caladbolg



They may be conceptual, even if pure DC two weapons of the same rank can have diferent output and range.

Probably all or most of them are BP.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> >Draining
> >Lasts 2 days after deploying it once after having nearly all his mana shredded by Lancer
> >Can still deploy Rho Aias nearly vanished to defend Shirou from Ea and save Rin from the Holy Grail via Sword Spam



I'm just telling you the reason I always get as to why he never used it against someone who isn't Shiro.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> t sounds like bull shit because it is bull shit
> 
> Shirou, for all his psychometric powers, really undersells its utility
> 
> Especially when Archer killed Berserker 5 times without it



It wasn't Shiro, it's Nasu.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> That's not a standard
> 
> Nor is it how Nasu magic functions



Is a shonen standard in the sense it's used in many works that use energy systems.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Have they?



Yes.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> That's nonsensical because they're scaling to something Ezra herself can't actually accomplish from Ezra accomplishing it
> 
> That's yet another headache inducing circle



No, the scaling is for Irene being the one that uses the attack and being able to react to it, she is inferior in everything to the strongest in the manga.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> That's fine, use that



I think it was this -Dragons' flight speed: Mach 252.14 - 1260.727 (Fairy Tail)


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He was going to die to Cu onesidedly, was only hanging because his eye of the mind skill helping him dodge lethal hit while having no other choice than tanking all others.



You're missing two things

First being he needs a combination of physical strength, skill, and precognition that would allow him to even try this in the first place

He's established repeatedly to be in the strike zone with them all in terms of raw stats

Second thing you're missing?

Only in the context of Nasu is his melee not considered a "strength"

On a raw stats basis alone, he's fine to go to town with high/top tiers in most franchise that Nasuverse compares to



> It's 20 seconds more or less.



For Hrunting

Something he either had time to employ vs Berserker or he has even faster to use shit of comparable power in melee range

This isn't a difficult thought puzzle, under pressure he can use 5 attacks that kill Berserker



> They may be conceptual, even if pure DC two weapons of the same rank can have diferent output and range.



I know within the same tier you can have a variety of raw powers, but the point it its not dipping below Caladbolg to a large extent or else the shit isn't killing him

And why should I assume conceptual?  In the first place, that would be granting him hax with no basis.



> Probably all or most of them are BP.



And the fact he employed them vs Heracles is doubly amazing given he'd have even less time to employ them than Shirou did to project Caliburn in the span of Heracles completing 1 sword swing



> I'm just telling you the reason I always get as to why he never used it against someone who isn't Shiro.



By feats the reasoning is nonsensical



> It wasn't Shiro, it's Nasu.



Nasu's also subject to stating contradictory garbage *shrugs*

When none are present, his word is fine

This isn't one of those times



> Is a shonen standard in the sense it's used in many works that use energy systems.



Nasu isn't shonen

Kuzuki amped by Medea was in the league of Saber in terms of power

Rin's magic would still fuck him because he has fuck all resistance to shit even as pithy as Gandr



> Yes.



Link the feats



> No, the scaling is for Irene being the one that uses the attack and being able to react to it, she is inferior in everything to the strongest in the manga.



Did she react to it?

Did anyone else react to it that shouldn't be able to?

If say normal people were able to view it, reaction alone isn't a valid measure



> I think it was this -Dragons' flight speed: Mach 252.14 - 1260.727 (Fairy Tail)



Links?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

CT, the meteor feat isnt usable for Erza because she spent the entire fight getting manhandled by a weaker version of Irene. Yet suddenly she can bust he strongest attack (with all her bones broken to boot) and then proceed to oneshot Irene when shes in dragon form, which is the single best feat against a dragon in series.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> CT, the meteor feat isnt usable for Erza because she spent the entire fight getting manhandled by a weaker version of Irene. Yet suddenly she can bust he strongest attack (with all her bones broken to boot) and then proceed to oneshot Irene when shes in dragon form, which is the single best feat against a dragon in series.



I know, I got that

Hence I'm asking why you can even apply the feat to anyone as the only real link to the speed and such is Ezta


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know, I got that
> 
> Hence I'm asking why you can even apply the feat to anyone as the only real link to the speed and such is Ezta


The speed is the speed of the meteor, logically the person who summoned it and people stronger than her should scale since she was controlling it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> The speed is the speed of the meteor, logically the person who summoned it and people stronger than her should scale since she was controlling it.



Right

And I suppose Final Fantasy VII is trillions of C FTL because Sephiroth does the same shit with Supernova

Good to know

Do we have exposition on the attacks mechanics?  Is it TK?  Does she just omnidirectionally throw out a magic signal that tags random space junk to tractor pull it to her location? Etc for other scenario I can't bother to think up that may or may not be reliant on her own reactions and attack speed

TK is largely the only scenario you can make this case, and that kind of needs specified


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Right
> 
> And I suppose Final Fantasy VII is trillions of C FTL because Sephiroth does the same shit with Supernova
> 
> ...


She either summons it or pulls it with TK, either way its fast as shit considering how far away it was and how fast it flew towards the earth.

FF VII already has a speed feat from a summon in the millions, so i dont see why not


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## Sablés (Sep 23, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Hence I'm asking why you can even apply the feat to anyone as the only real link to the speed and such is Ezta


I made the same argument that nobody should scale to the speed.

What  I got in return was along the lines of "Its an outlier for Erza, not for top-tiers stronger than her."...even though Erza is the medium for which any scaling can be derived. There was also the logic that Irene (the meteor caster) was in disbelief that Erza could destroy the meteorite but not that she matched the speed, therefore the speed part of the feat wasn't an issue. Something that again, could be chalked up to Irene just finding the meteor's destruction as the more impressing of the two


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> She either summons it or pulls it with TK, either way its fast as shit considering how far away it was and how fast it flew towards the earth.



The either or is the problem

TK alone would be fine, summoning itself can vary in mechanics from verse to verse and isn't straight forward enough to use



> FF VII already has a speed feat from a summon in the millions, so i dont see why not



Sure, but the issue is again whether its him summoning the comet or TKing the comet

TK has mechanics straight forward enough where you can make the case, summoning is too variable without in depth clarification

We're not given the kind of exposition where I could try to swing it



Sablés said:


> I made the same argument that nobody should scale to the speed.
> 
> What  I got in return was along the lines of "Its an outlier for Erza, not for top-tiers stronger than her."...even though Erza is the medium for which any scaling can be derived.



And you are right in that chain of logic *shrugs*

Ezra is what the connection spawns from

If you consider her connection invalid, no one else above her on the power ladder can benefit due to having no other connection to it other than the invalid Ezra



> There was also the logic that Irene (the meteor caster) was in disbelief that Erza could destroy the meteorite but not that she matched the speed, therefore the speed part of the feat wasn't an issue. Something that again, could be chalked up to Irene just finding the meteor's destruction as the more impressing of the two



That's flimsy, but workable

Needs fleshing out though, such as whether or not your latter point needs considered


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 23, 2017)

Sablés said:


> I made the same argument that nobody should scale to the speed.
> 
> What  I got in return was along the lines of "Its an outlier for Erza, not for top-tiers stronger than her."...even though Erza is the medium for which any scaling can be derived. There was also the logic that Irene (the meteor caster) was in disbelief that Erza could destroy the meteorite but not that she matched the speed, therefore the speed part of the feat wasn't an issue. Something that again, could be chalked up to Irene just finding the meteor's destruction as the more impressing of the two


Irene was reacting to the meteor too though, Erza just destroyed it.


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## Crimson King (Sep 23, 2017)

How do you know the meteor speed?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Irene was reacting to the meteor too though, Erza just destroyed it.



So do random assholes in some random village on page 16 of chapter 518

Or better known as the page after the meteor breached the clouds and came near the planet

This doesn't invalidate the speed of the thing, to be practical in combat, yet come from some distance at least as far away as our moon from eyeballing it's starting position, it needs to be as fast as assumed to make sense

Or we can also work with the notion they all sit there for a few hours in silence after boasting about her grand Dragon powers *shrugs*

That being said, the fact normals can view it in this specific instance makes it dubious you can use it to scale to the bitch's reactions in the first place



Kurou said:


> Start at 13
> 
> Its pretty straight forward
> 
> She calls down a meteor to earth



@Ultimate Deathsaurer has been on about linking to sites like this recently IIRC

Think he either wants us to rehost the shit or cite the chapter and page numbers


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## Kurou (Sep 23, 2017)

Eh

Aight whatever 

I didnt know what chapter the fight was on so I just posted it once I found it


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 23, 2017)

Yes please rehost it before Mbxx starts ranting again.


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## Kurou (Sep 23, 2017)

I aint rehosting shit from FT


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 23, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Eh
> 
> Aight whatever
> 
> I didnt know what chapter the fight was on so I just posted it once I found it



No big deal *shrugs*

I didn't know where to find it myself, I just remembered the [BLOCKED] domain urls in the calc blog had 518 attached to them and gave that a shot


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## Juan (Sep 24, 2017)

I'm pretty sure that Irene scales cause she had to enchant the meteor to bring it crashing down to Earth or whatever


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## shade0180 (Sep 24, 2017)

Jjcb said:


> I'm pretty sure that Irene scales cause she had to enchant the meteor to bring it crashing down to Earth or whatever



er.... how does enchanting make her scale?


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## Juan (Sep 24, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> er.... how does enchanting make her scale?


She had to keep enchanting the meteor while it traveled ergo keeping up with it's speed 

I think 

I don't really care, RH is the only one who keeps screeching about the feat


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## shade0180 (Sep 24, 2017)

Jjcb said:


> She had to keep enchanting the meteor while it traveled ergo keeping up with it's speed



 still don't see it.. .. that's like claiming pointing to a car multiple times while it's running equate to you being able to move as fast as it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Jjcb said:


> I'm pretty sure that Irene scales cause she had to enchant the meteor to bring it crashing down to Earth or whatever



Again

Unless this is TK, which is a straight forward mechanic that requires little explanation on functionality, "enchant" as a mechanic is too variable without proper explanation on its nature

If the enchantment is autonomous, she has to do nothing of the sort.  If it functions like a magnet it likewise needs no input on her part.

I can rattle off a good number of scenarios and they'd all be plausible because we're given no explanation on how the power functions as far as I've been shown

Without exposition to the power being manual in nature like something more psychic and thought driven like TK, there's no ground to claim she had to do anything to the meteor but call out arbitrarily to anything in the aether and wait


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## Juan (Sep 24, 2017)

Jjcb said:


> I don't really care, RH is the only one who keeps screeching about the feat


It's 1 am and I haven't slept in 25 hours, let me be stupid for a bit


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

No

And I have no sympathy having done that and more many times throughout high school and undergrad and still functioning well enough to get "quality" work completed

Reactions: Like 2


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> For Hrunting
> 
> Something he either had time to employ vs Berserker or he has even faster to use shit of comparable power in melee range
> 
> This isn't a difficult thought puzzle, under pressure he can use 5 attacks that kill Berserker



The amount of time is only linked to the amount of energy he can load in that window, diferent NP shouldn't have different times.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know within the same tier you can have a variety of raw powers, but the point it its not dipping below Caladbolg to a large extent or else the shit isn't killing him
> 
> And why should I assume conceptual? In the first place, that would be granting him hax with no basis.



That's the point, we don't know which NP he used, they may be hax or DC based. Even scalling everything to a diferent weapon is inexact.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And the fact he employed them vs Heracles is doubly amazing given he'd have even less time to employ them than Shirou did to project Caliburn in the span of Heracles completing 1 sword swing



We know nothing about that fight, he could just run around until he charged them enough or whatever.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Link the feats



This is timestop and matter manipulation, there's a subordinate of this girl that uses space manipulation and didn't work on her, but I don't remember where he said that.

*Spoiler*: __ 














ChaosTheory123 said:


> Did she react to it?
> 
> Did anyone else react to it that shouldn't be able to?
> 
> If say normal people were able to view it, reaction alone isn't a valid measure



She is the dragon in the scans, picked the thing from space and guided it to earth.




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Links?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> CT, the meteor feat isnt usable for Erza because she spent the entire fight getting manhandled by a weaker version of Irene. Yet suddenly she can bust he strongest attack (with all her bones broken to boot) and then proceed to oneshot Irene when shes in dragon form, which is the single best feat against a dragon in series.



Being fair, she did that because she used magic intended to kill dragons.


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Being fair, she did that because she used magic intended to kill dragons.


Not at all. DS magic barely mattered in the GMG fight because there's too big a gap for them to cross. Ezra oneshotting Irene out of her dragon form was nonsensical no matter how you pick off the feat


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Not at all. DS magic barely mattered in the GMG fight because there's too big a gap for them to cross. Ezra oneshotting Irene out of her dragon form was nonsensical no matter how you pick off the feat


Yea a fucking half dead wendy just gave her a little bit of dragon slayer magic on her weapon. Not even an actual dragon slayer has pulled off a feat like that


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Not at all. DS magic barely mattered in the GMG fight because there's too big a gap for them to cross. Ezra oneshotting Irene out of her dragon form was nonsensical no matter how you pick off the feat



I doubt having Wendy enchanting her sword with Dragon Slaying magic was for nothing, you could say the amount of damage was exaggerated but without it there might have been no damage at all, since I don't remember anyone that isn't a god tier hurting dragons without that stuff.

She is also stronger than anyone in the guild was in the GMG.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The amount of time is only linked to the amount of energy he can load in that window, diferent NP shouldn't have different times.



It's a wonderful thing you're talking out your ass then

Because we have Shirou as basis to tell us you're wrong

The fact you even deign to harp on Hrunting's charge time in spite of other feats from a weaker incarnation of the character making it ridiculous leaves me confused in the first place frankly



> That's the point, we don't know which NP he used, they may be hax or DC based.



We don't need to know anything about the fight other than how effective the weapons were

And let's not continue acting like a dumbass when we know how powerful attacks functioning off his regular strength are more than overkill from Shirou's bisecting Saber Alter with Triple Crane Wing



> Even scalling everything to a diferent weapon is inexact.



It really isn't that complex

A Rank normal shit ~= C Rank NP

Or better known as 1 of Rin's Jewels which take 4 to replicate Caladbolg

And, again, his generic physical strikes are more than enough for most of these assholes



> We know nothing about that fight, he could just run around until he charged them enough or whatever.



We know enough about the fight to know this specifically is bullshit 2 fold 

First being Archer is slower than Berserker

Second being Berserkers narration during the interlude

But knowing that last bit would require watching that link, which you've demonstrated not doing so far





> This is timestop and matter manipulation, there's a subordinate of this girl that uses space manipulation and didn't work on her, but I don't remember where he said that.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Dude, it's an area the size of a tumor?  Are you kidding me?



> She is the dragon in the scans, picked the thing from space and guided it to earth.



We've already moved passed this to outright rejecting any sort of scaling

Read the rest of the thread on why


Will take a look in a bit then


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

Her Matter manipulation let her throw an entire island a few miles into the air by making the ground under it expand upwards tbf

ignore the tumor shit, but i guess it also provides a basis for her being able to shrink peoples organs to fuck them over


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Her Matter manipulation let her throw an entire island a few miles into the air by making the ground under it expand upwards tbf



Was that in the post?

If so, my bad.  Reading this shit by phone is annoying.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> It's a wonderful thing you're talking out your ass then
> 
> Because we have Shirou as basis to tell us you're wrong
> 
> The fact you even deign to harp on Hrunting's charge time in spite of other feats from a weaker incarnation of the character making it ridiculous leaves me confused in the first place frankly



When did Shirou use BP?

The time changes depending on how much power he injects in the weapon, that's why it increases in each successive shot.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> We don't need to know anything about the fight other than how effective the weapons were
> 
> And let's not continue acting like a dumbass when we know how powerful attacks functioning off his regular strength are more than overkill from Shirou's bisecting Saber Alter with Triple Crane Wing



Yeah we need, because killing Berserker only means he made a number a attacks with an A ranking.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It really isn't that complex
> 
> A Rank normal shit ~= C Rank NP
> 
> ...



You can have B ranks with better destructive capacity than A ranks.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> We know enough about the fight to know this specifically is bullshit 2 fold
> 
> First being Archer is slower than Berserker
> 
> ...



That's where strategy and skill makes a difference. He can't match Berserker in a frontal fight.

The only way for him to kill him is charging the Broken Phantasm while leading Berserker around, even stuff like the described wounds don't tell anything of how the fight went because ultimately it was all caused by explosions that shouldn't even work because God Hand needs different methods for each life taken.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> We've already moved passed this to outright rejecting any sort of scaling
> 
> Read the rest of the thread on why



For reasons that don't make sense, she picks the meteorit guides it to it's destination and can clearly follow its path, there's also no way for that attack to be faster than characters that are stronger than her. Same with other randoms being able to realize something is happening in the 10 second or so window, everyone there is superhuman to some degree and this has never been used in other meteorite feats.

Erza doesn't get the scaling because the writing is bullshit, but the feat is valid.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was that in the post?
> 
> If so, my bad.  Reading this shit by phone is annoying.


It wasnt, i was just clarifying since he didnt post that scan for some reason. And fuck if im gonna read through FT to find it


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> You can have B ranks with better destructive capacity than A ranks.


Name one that isnt Stella


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Name one that isnt Stella



B+ NP that double their output but still lack the level of mystery to actually be A.

Stuff in UBW with "similar performance" to Excalibur 

It seems destructive power would be better represented by the army/unit/fortress/world classification.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> B+ NP that double their output but still lack the level of mystery to actually be A.
> 
> Stuff in UBW with "similar performance" to Excalibur


UBW has A ranked NPs in it so the fuck you talking about. 

I said name a B rank, not give me a vague idea of some B+ NP with power similar to excalibur. Which ive never even heard of


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

Gae Bolg thrown is b rank


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> UBW has A ranked NPs in it so the fuck you talking about.



No it doesn't, EX rank can't be replicated and everything has a 1 rank downgrade.

*"Noble Phantasm*
■ *Unlimited Blade Works: Infinite Creation of Swords*
Rank: E- ~ A++
Type: Anti-Unit
Range: 30 ~ 66
Maximum number of targets: ???

EX Rank Noble Phantasms are in principle impossible to replicate. (However, in the circumstance where the support of the original owner exists, replication becomes possible."

That's why he uses Broken Phantasm, and the reason he can't kill Berserker with UBW while Gilgamesh can with GoB despite the same shooting speed and power.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> I said name a B rank, not give me a vague idea of some B+ NP with power similar to excalibur. Which ive never even heard of



Any B+ NP, the + means it exceeds a B rank strength momentarily.

This thing is fortress class at B+

Kurama, on all fours, over the forests in Konoha.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No it doesn't


What the fuck is with this downplay ? Hrunting is fucking A rank. Caladbolg too.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> What the fuck is with this downplay ? Hrunting is fucking A rank. Caladbolg too.



Read my edit


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> When did Shirou use BP?



Caladbolg II vs Saber Alter

Not related, but just as powerful being every deployment of Rho Aias, Caliburn that can trade blows with Berserker, Nine Lives Blade Works



> The time changes depending on how much power he injects in the weapon, that's why it increases in each successive shot.



And the time frame is bullshit when Shirou's had to project shit of comparable power with much less time

It's like keeping Naruto beholden to only 5 seconds when they have plenty of feats hilariously faster in terms of charge with similar firepower



> Yeah we need, because killing Berserker only means he made a number a attacks with an A ranking.



And those A rank attacks are comparable to Caladbolg

Again though, his physical strikes already scale to a marked fraction of Berserker's that can counter Caladbolg and Excalibur of similar power



> You can have B ranks with better destructive capacity than A ranks.



Nope

B+ (On NP scale it's a 160) can conditionally surpass A (100 on NP scale)

B is an 80 otherwise

C is a 60

A on the normal scale a 50 with a normal A+ matching an NP A.

How do you fuck up understanding a power level scale with listed numbers that tells us how the exceptions function



> That's where strategy and skill makes a difference. He can't match Berserker in a frontal fight.



Not enough to draw out each attack 20 seconds 

A timeframe only alluded to in Hollow Ataraxia and never demonstrated in any other showing by a weaker Shirou



> The only way for him to kill him is charging the Broken Phantasm



It was a sword fight

Read the links

Berserker alludes to as much

BP are projectiles, and suicidal to use as actual swords






> For reasons that don't make sense



Opinions are nice

Actually refute the counter arguments or get a dictionary if you can't follow them



> she picks the meteorit guides it to it's destination



Prove it was manual guidance and not autonomous



> and can clearly follow its path



So did some random village kids



> there's also no way for that attack to be faster than characters that are stronger than her.



Flat out unsubstantiated 



> Erza doesn't get the scaling because the writing is bullshit, but the feat is valid.



Without Ezra nothing links to the feat, making the whole thing invalid

Reactions: Funny 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> This thing is fortress class at B+
> 
> Kurama, on all fours, over the forests in Konoha.



And Kiritsugu Saber's A++ Excalibur was fucking anti-unit

Are you actually that audacious to try using his weird and arbitrary AOE shit to gauge actual raw power?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Caladbolg II vs Saber Alter



I legit don't remember this 

How long did he take and how much power he had?



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Not related, but just as powerful being every deployment of Rho Aias, Caliburn that can trade blows with Berserker, Nine Lives Blade Works



RA, NLBW are B, Caliburn was with Saber suport.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nope
> 
> B+ (On NP scale it's a 160) can conditionally surpass A (100 on NP scale)
> 
> ...



This is what i said.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It was a sword fight
> 
> Read the links
> 
> ...



But that's the thing, he can only damage Berserker with BP, if he clashed swords it was in a "defensive fight" while charging the BP.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> So did some random village kids



Randoms being able to realize something is happening in the 10 second or so window, everyone there is superhuman to some degree and this has never been used to contradict other meteorite feats.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Flat out unsubstantiated



They are above and beyond everyone else, no way a lower tier would blitz them.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Prove it was manual guidance and not autonomous



She has to get the meteorite from somewhere, know the size and direct over the target.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And Kiritsugu Saber's A++ Excalibur was fucking anti-unit
> 
> Are you actually that audacious to try using his weird and arbitrary AOE shit to gauge actual raw power?



This class is different in that is related to destructive capacity and not AOE

*Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm* (対城宝具, _Tai-Jō Hōgu_, Anti-Castle) - This rank has powerful Noble Phantasms that can even blow away solid fortified structures. While the difference between Anti-Unit and Anti-Army is the variation in area of effect, Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms are distinguished from other categories by the great difference in power.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> This class is different in that is related to destructive capacity and not output.
> *Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasm* (対城宝具, _Tai-Jō Hōgu_, Anti-Castle) - This rank has powerful Noble Phantasms that can even blow away solid fortified structures. While the difference between Anti-Unit and Anti-Army is the variation in area of effect, Anti-Fortress Noble Phantasms are distinguished from other categories by the great difference in power


You do realize that there are Anti-non Fortress NPs that perform better than actual Anti-fortress Np's on the whole destructive capacity scale , right ?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> You do realize that there are Anti-non Fortress NPs that perform better than actual Anti-fortress Np's on the whole destructive capacity scale , right ?



Sure, i'm just making a point that B ranks can have equal or greater destructive power than A ranks. Fortress tends to be the more destructive ones because they are power based tho, after world.

B+ Gae Bolg Soaring might have actually been stronger than A rank Archer's Hrunting too.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> I legit don't remember this
> 
> How long did he take and how much power he had?



It's the option where you fuck up and make another projection before Rho Aias w/Rider

I can't reread it on my phone ATM, but I recall it being a short window akin to Rider moving away briefly



> RA, NLBW are B,



Rho Aias has a rank?

NLBW being a B only helps me given it has a lower numerical score yet still functions to kill Berserker

Basically, your semantics are obnoxious and the point is anything beyond a C Rank NP isn't markedly beneath an A in raw power as you're pretending



> Caliburn was with Saber suport.



Not the part where he sliced off his arm and traded a number of blows



> This is what i said.



Yet you're drawn no alien conclusions like the scale doesn't refer to raw power too



> But that's the thing, he can only damage Berserker with BP



Unsubstantiated and flat out false

Hell, one description of Triple Crane Wing calls it one of the offscreen deaths.

Can fetch it later when not on phone 




> if he clashed swords it was in a "defensive fight" while charging the BP.



And yet your assertion holds no substance with Berserker's narration

[/quote]Randoms being able to realize something is happening in the 10 second or so window, everyone there is superhuman to some degree and this has never been used to contradict other meteorite feats.





> They didn't have a fraction of a second at the height it was noticed at
> 
> The speed isn't discounted for the attack, but using anyone reacting to it as justification is bullshit when ransoms could do so in the same scene
> 
> ...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Fucking phone garbage

Can't edit the quote fuck up


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## Solar (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Fucking phone garbage
> 
> Can't edit the quote fuck up



Just rotate your phone.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Sure, i'm just making a point that B ranks can have equal or greater destructive power than A ranks. Fortress tends to be the more destructive ones because they are power based tho, after world.


THis isn't a rule. It's case by case basis. There are Anti-world or Anti-Planet NPs that have absolutely nothing to do with damage. There aslo anti-unit Nps that may do more actual damage than Anti-Fortress Nps


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> B+ Gae Bolg Soaring might have actually been stronger than A rank Archer's Hrunting too


You have somthing concrete? Cause i can start with using  assumptions too and we would never finish this.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> Just rotate your phone.



What exactly am I supposed to be seeing?  

Don't see an edit option either way


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What exactly am I supposed to be seeing?
> 
> Don't see an edit option either way


In my case there's a little arrow that is supposed to  show you the editing options somewhere around the place where you text. Look for something like that and tap it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> In my case there's a little arrow that is supposed to  show you the editing options somewhere around the place where you text. Look for something like that and tap it.



Not seeing it

Only have the triangle of "give rep", "quote", and "reply"


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Rho Aias has a rank?
> 
> NLBW being a B only helps me given it has a lower numerical score yet still functions to kill Berserker
> 
> Basically, your semantics are obnoxious and the point is anything beyond a C Rank NP isn't markedly beneath an A in raw power as you're pretending



Everything in UBW is at most B+++, NLBW worked because that Berserker had lost God Hand.

C rank might outright be stronger than A ranks, my point is that powerscalling destructive capacity from one A rank NP to another only because they are both A is a bad idea.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It's the option where you fuck up and make another projection before Rho Aias w/Rider
> 
> I can't reread it on my phone ATM, but I recall it being a short window akin to Rider moving away briefly



Can't find it in Youtube, but maybe he didn't manage to charge it to any meaningful degree or something.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Unsubstantiated and flat out false
> 
> Hell, one description of Triple Crane Wing calls it one of the offscreen deaths.
> 
> Can fetch it later when not on phone



That's the point, if it isn't A rank it will not work. If it is and was made by Archer, is a Broken Phantasm.

Destructive Capacity is irrelevant, is all about having A in the profile.



reyatsuguy said:


> THis isn't a rule. It's case by case basis. There are Anti-world or Anti-Planet NPs that have absolutely nothing to do with damage. There aslo anti-unit Nps that may do more actual damage than Anti-Fortress Nps



That's why I said _tends to be.
_


reyatsuguy said:


> You have somthing concrete? Cause i can start withusing assumptions too and we would never finish this.



Gae Bolg pierced six layers, Hrunting less than four.

I just don't remember the details of the bridge fight.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Not seeing it
> 
> Only have the triangle of "give rep", "quote", and "reply"


Ok, i checked again on my phone. Near the Give rep button i have something simillar to an equal sign. I press that and it shows me the editing options. You have something like that ? it's reffered to as  ''Controls"


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## Solar (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What exactly am I supposed to be seeing?
> 
> Don't see an edit option either way


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Gae Bolg pierced six layers, Hrunting less than four.
> 
> I just don't remember the details of the bridge fight.


Gae Bolg pierced six layers of Archer's Rho Ayas while Hrunting pierced Shirou's Rho Ayas. Not the same person.Not the same conditions
Secondly, if Archer hadn't died Hrunting would have kept hitting Shirou.
Not the best example.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No it doesn't, EX rank can't be replicated and everything has a 1 rank downgrade.
> 
> *"Noble Phantasm*
> ■ *Unlimited Blade Works: Infinite Creation of Swords*
> ...


a + is a rank and Caladbolg is A+, so yes Archer projecting Caladbolg II is an A rank NP.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


>


what the fuck how did i not notice this


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Everything in UBW is at most B+++



...

How do you fuck up that badly when the ratings are consistently listed as a range from E to A++?

Rank down can mean loss of a "+" sign, not just A to B 

[/quote]NLBW worked because that Berserker had lost God Hand.[/quote]

Because let's ignore his natural durability



> C rank might outright be stronger than A ranks



Only if they're C+



> my point is that powerscalling destructive capacity from one A rank NP to another only because they are both A is a bad idea.



Your conclusions are based on faulty premise and this entire tangent has been pointless because his base stats aren't lacking 



> Can't find it in Youtube, but maybe he didn't manage to charge it to any meaningful degree or something.



Why would I assume this when he can deploy shit as powerful as Rho Aias nigh instantly to eat up 11% of Excalibur Morgan's powrr?



> That's the point, if it isn't A rank it will not work. If it is and was made by Archer, is a Broken Phantasm.



Broken Phantasm are explosives, projectiles

This was a sword fight

The hell are you on?



> Destructive Capacity is irrelevant, is all about having A in the profile.



It's not irrelevant when he provides a numerical scale for each class and exception

How hard is that to grasp?



> Gae Bolg pierced six layers, Hrunting less than four.



Hrunting pierced all 4 layers Shirou could project

At best the comparison is inconclusive and at worst impossible


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


>


Legit don't have that for the skin I'm using


----------



## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

Nine Lives Blade Works has no listed Rank. The ability it was copied from is C to A+.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Gae Bolg pierced six layers of Archer's Rho Ayas while Hrunting pierced Shirou's Rho Ayas. Not the same person.Not the same conditions
> Secondly, if Archer hadn't died Hrunting would have kept hitting Shirou.
> Not the best example.



Shiro's RA is weaker with only four layers, and it deflected Hrunting, it just so happens it has a homing effect.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> a + is a rank and Caladbolg is A+, so yes Archer projecting Caladbolg II is an A rank NP.



No, the + aren't counted as Ranks.

That's why he didn't just skewered Berserker as GoB did.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> ...
> 
> How do you fuck up that badly when the ratings are consistently listed as a range from E to A++?
> 
> Rank down can mean loss of a "+" sign, not just A to B



Im pretty sure those aren't considered ranks, is like saying "low B rank"



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why would I assume this when he can deploy shit as powerful as Rho Aias nigh instantly to eat up 11% of Excalibur Morgan's powrr?



Because RA isn't a BP that needs to be charged.

He needed at least a 20 second charge time to threaten Saber, that we do know.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Broken Phantasm are explosives, projectiles
> 
> This was a sword fight
> 
> The hell are you on?



That's the problem with this fight.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It's not irrelevant when he provides a numerical scale for each class and exception
> 
> How hard is that to grasp?



Is irrelevant because you can have a B+ and A level with the same destructive capacity, Berserker will take no damage from the B+ NP.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Hrunting pierced all 4 layers Shirou could project
> 
> At best the comparison is inconclusive and at worst impossible



It was deflected thoug, Gae Bolg would have been overkill.

Archer himself is surprised it got so far.


----------



## Solar (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Legit don't have that for the skin I'm using



It's on every skin though. 


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Shiro's RA is weaker with only four layers, and it deflected Hrunting, it just so happens it has a homing effect.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes the +'s are counted as ranks cause they are modifiers. How hard is that to understand. Even in FGO with the rank ups it adds +s to them


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Shiro's RA is weaker with only four layers, and it deflected Hrunting, it just so happens it has a homing effect.



No, it didn't

It broke all 4 layers and deflected it only enough to briefly save his ass from turning around and offing him



> No, the + aren't counted as Ranks.



Flat out untrue given his UBW has a range of E to A++

They clearly include the + and his strongest copied weapon is clearly some A+++ for an A++ upper bound to exist as continuously stated



> That's why he didn't just skewered Berserker as GoB did.



Dude, you don't even remember half the feats I've been talking about, the hell do you get off claiming this without citation?



> Im pretty sure those aren't considered ranks, is like saying "low B rank"



Is English not you first language or something?

Because the range from E to A++ is clearly to reflect the fact he's packing generic regular swords to shit like dime store Excalibur knock offs

You being pretty sure of anything is hilarious though considering how much you've needed reminded so far



> Because RA isn't a BP that needs to be charged.



It needs his mana to act as an actual barrier in the first place



> He needed at least a 20 second charge time to threaten Saber, that we do know.



And Pein needs 5 seconds for Shinra  Tensei and Naruto  ninja are sub-human

The time frame is bunk compared earlier faster feats from a weaker Shirou and you harping on all this semantics when we only need to even discuss his generic sword slashes is getting really annoying

Why do Nasu fucks always go on irrelevant tangents?



> That's the problem with this fight.



There is no problem with the fight

He projects weapons of A rank and replicates the skill and strength of their wielders

He's a mimic, this isn't difficult to get

Keep your head cannon about ranks out of this shit because you desire to manufacture artificial problems with the fight



> Is irrelevant because you can have a B+ and A level with the same destructive capacity, Berserker will take no damage from the B+ NP.



It's not irrelevant, the scale works regardless of God Hand

Just because B+ is nulled despite being stronger doesn't mean the powerscaling isn't straight forward



> It was deflected thoug, Gae Bolg would have been overkill.



Barely deflected and even then

Hrunting being an A vs B+ flight of death still follows the straight forward conditional chart shit



> Archer himself is surprised it got so far.



Gse Bolg?  Yeah, so what?

Edit - also, you still never addressed the issues with the speed in Fairy Tail

I can only assume you've conceded the point


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Haruhi Suzumiya said:


> It's on every skin though.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Don't know what to tell you

I've got nothing

Edit- never mind, it just blended in to the point it was almost the same color as background


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, it didn't
> 
> It broke all 4 layers and deflected it only enough to briefly save his ass from turning around and offing him



Because it has homing, but the hit was blocked.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It needs his mana to act as an actual barrier in the first place



But it isn't a BP.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And Pein needs 5 seconds for Shinra Tensei and Naruto ninja are sub-human
> 
> The time frame is bunk compared earlier faster feats from a weaker Shirou and you harping on all this semantics when we only need to even discuss his generic sword slashes is getting really annoying
> 
> Why do Nasu fucks always go on irrelevant tangents?



Is not not irrelevant because it is a pretty important plot detail, Shiro has no feats of using BP save the one from the failed attempt in HF, so I would check that and see if it fits or not.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Is English not you first language or something?
> 
> Because the range from E to A++ is clearly to reflect the fact he's packing generic regular swords to shit like dime store Excalibur knock offs
> 
> You being pretty sure of anything is hilarious though considering how much you've needed reminded so far





OneSimpleAnime said:


> Yes the +'s are counted as ranks cause they are modifiers. How hard is that to understand. Even in FGO with the rank ups it adds +s to them



That causes several problems tho.

The chart list ranks and modifier separatedly, UBW would obliterate Berserker if it had A ranks, there's no known A+++ NP and Broken Phantasm  makes B  into A but it only increases one rank.

GoB is E-A++ too for example.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Edit - also, you still never addressed the issues with the speed in Fairy Tail
> 
> I can only assume you've conceded the point



I was waiting to see if you got to fix the quote


----------



## shade0180 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because it has homing, but the hit was blocked.



Homing doesn't make shit unblockable...

 fucking with reality does..

the thrown version doesn't fuck with casualty... the piercing attack does...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because it has homing, but the hit was blocked.







> But it isn't a BP.



Doesn't need to be

The energy behind the shit is on a comparable level by feat comparison



> Is not not irrelevant



It is because plot mechanics or not the power of Archer's high end weapons and normal attacks are nigh indistinguishable for this hobby's purposes 

Literally everything begins and ends with comparisons to Berserker's regular strikes 




> That causes several problems tho.



It really doesn't and fits the narrative better than assuming an A+ becomes a B+



> The chart list ranks and modifier separatedly



Still reduces it all to numerical quantification



> UBW would obliterate Berserker if it had A ranks



You bring this up as if Word of God ever clarified it wasn't deployed for this reason

It may well have, especially since NP ranks only apply by calling true names, which Gil doesn't do while spamming shit.  The propulsion force is what gives GoB its ranking to hurt Berserker (makes sense given the shit repels Berserker's A+ strength), not the weapon ranks themselves



> there's no known A+++ NP



Doesn't mean it doesn't exist *shrugs*



> and Broken Phantasm  makes B  into A but it only increases one rank.



I've yet to find a citation for this



> GoB is E-A++ too for example.



 Because GoB also houses anything from normal shit like booze, generic weapons, and powerful prototype NP



> I was waiting to see if you got to fix the quote



Just quote previous posts covering the same shit

You've literally said nothing new that I haven't covered in them yet

Your post was the sparknotes to sparknotes of those posts in comparison frankly

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Fullmoon Evergreen Prince (Sep 24, 2017)

Archer and Archer can destroy a planet, so yeah, they Fairy Tail dies horribly, but I don't know about RAVE.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Fullmoon Evergreen Prince said:


> Archer and Archer can destroy a planet, so yeah, they Fairy Tail dies horribly, but I don't know about RAVE.



This isn't mythic formal wear

So only Ea should have anything approaching that here


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Right

About A+++ NP?



			
				Fate/Grand Order - Beast I Profile said:
			
		

> *Goetia* - *Beast I*
> 
> *Illustrator and Voice actor*
> *Illustrator*: Kotetsu Yamanaka
> ...



They exist

Doesn't specifically need to be, and likely isn't, the Beast's NP, but the fact they exist at all means something in UBW is likely a copy of one given the upper bound of weapons inside is an A++


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Doesn't need to be
> 
> The energy behind the shit is on a comparable level by feat comparison



It is because you are mixing a NP power with Archer ability to supercharge the thing.

Tracing is near instantaneous if not unneded because he can pull the weapons from the RM.

Is like comparing a car engine with your ability to fill the car with TNT 



shade0180 said:


> Homing doesn't make shit unblockable...
> 
> fucking with reality does..
> 
> the thrown version doesn't fuck with casualty... the piercing attack does...



That's the point.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> It is because plot mechanics or not the power of Archer's high end weapons and normal attacks are nigh indistinguishable for this hobby's purposes
> 
> Literally everything begins and ends with comparisons to Berserker's regular strikes



But Berserker strikes don't scale to anyone aside from maybe Saber, same as you can't powerscale DC from one NP to another just because they are both A rank.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Still reduces it all to numerical quantification



Because is a part of the power of a NP but not the whole of it, two weapons can have the same DC but the one with a conceptual effect not reflected by numerical quantification will have a higher rank.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> You bring this up as if Word of God ever clarified it wasn't deployed for this reason
> 
> It may well have, especially since NP ranks only apply by calling true names, which Gil doesn't do while spamming shit. The propulsion force is what gives GoB its ranking to hurt Berserker (makes sense given the shit repels Berserker's A+ strength), not the weapon ranks themselves



No, there's the fact that UBW is said to not be as usefull against other servants and Shirou's weapons still are said to be of lower rank to Gilgamesh, even with the same propulsion force, and Gilgamesh not being able to kill Heracles until he uses A rank swords.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I've yet to find a citation for this



It's the ability description, I think the same is said about Gae Bolg and runes.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because GoB also houses anything from normal shit like booze, generic weapons, and powerful prototype NP



It has everything from random crap to an EX rank NP (or a few), clearly the rank of GoB doesn't reflects it's treasures. Same would aply to UBW, the E-A++ is for the reality marble itself.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just quote previous posts covering the same shit
> 
> You've literally said nothing new that I haven't covered in them yet
> 
> Your post was the sparknotes to sparknotes of those posts in comparison frankly



Ok, the random mucks have never been a problem in other meteorite feats, powerscalling works the same as every other shonen and Irene guides the meteorite and reacts to it, Erza doesn't have the scalling because it's bullshit writing but what she did doesn't really contradicts FT standard of massive power ups mid fight because of friendship power.

Even with their speeds in the same ballpark, the destructive capacity and their hax would edge this for the higher tiered Sprigans, where exactly would depend on how the fights develop (who uses what move first, which of their skills they try first, etc.)

Rave is stronger than FT, so they would win too.


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

There is nothing EX rank that is used as an attack in Gate of Babylon. Stating otherwise is speculation on your part.


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Doesn't specifically need to be, and likely isn't, the Beast's NP, but the fact they exist at all means something in UBW is likely a copy of one given the upper bound of weapons inside is an A++


Uh, just wondering. 

Do we know if UBW's rankings are for what's inside the RM as opposed to the capacity it can hold?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> There is nothing EX rank that is used as an attack in Gate of Babylon. Stating otherwise is speculation on your part.



EA and every possible EX rank NP that comes from a legend he could have inspired, since he was retconed to have the original of any NP for the sole reason of being the first heroic spirit, except stuff like God Hand that is a representation of a legend and not an object from the legend.

Also Enkidu that now is rank ???


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It is because you are mixing a NP power with Archer ability to supercharge the thing.
> 
> Tracing is near instantaneous if not unneded because he can pull the weapons from the RM.



The point is

Things that Hrunting scales from don't require 20 seconds

The notion he needs 20 seconds in the first place is about as valid narratively as Pein needing 5 seconds in Naruto

That's the point.



> But Berserker strikes don't scale to anyone aside from maybe Saber, same as you can't powerscale DC from one NP to another just because they are both A rank.



And you'd be wrong

I've rather easily demonstrated the difference between tiers isn't substantial and a combination of skill and raw power can overcome the otherwise insignificant gap

Pull your head out of Nasu's ass for a second and actually frame this like we would literally any other series and the dots are painfully easy to connect



> Because is a part of the power of a NP but not the whole of it, two weapons can have the same DC but the one with a conceptual effect not reflected by numerical quantification will have a higher rank.



God its like taking a cheese grater to the brain parsing out this jumbled shit

You're essentially acting like one of those assholes that finds extreme examples outside the norm and use it to say the general observable and straight forward trend isn't true because those extremes exist

Or worse even, a fucker that takes their own anecdotal experiences over the empirically supported evidence because they don't fit the trend

You have numerical figures denoting the power of an object and a alphabetical rank denoting the mystery

Higher numerical rank corresponds to raw power and roughly correlates with the alphabetical rank with some noted exceptions with the "+" figures



> No, there's the fact that UBW is said to not be as usefull against other servants



Its painful that you take this out of context put the meaning through a fucking meat grinder

The purpose of the idea is that both Gil and Shirou aren't masters, but owners. 

One that has mastered a single weapon, if Archer were to pull that same weapon, the original would over come Archer's degraded copy of its power and skill

Gilgamesh doesn't possess the skill that corresponds to the weapon, hence the playing field is made even

This quote is in no way referencing the blade spam 



> and Shirou's weapons still are said to be of lower rank to Gilgamesh,



Which has nothing to do with the propulsion force, which is what's harming Herc in the first place



> even with the same propulsion force, and Gilgamesh not being able to kill Heracles until he uses A rank swords.



So clearly Shirou/Archer can replicate the same

But you've got this narrative in your head where rank down clearly means A to B and not counting + for arbitrary nonsense



> It's the ability description, I think the same is said about Gae Bolg and runes.



That's the thing, I've failed to find said description



> It has everything from random crap to an EX rank NP (or a few), clearly the rank of GoB doesn't reflects it's treasures. Same would aply to UBW, the E-A++ is for the reality marble itself.



Given it gives a range, yet UBW is the same size every time?

It can't be the reality marble, but what he can do with it that gives it a range

So, in all likely hood, both it and GoB refer to the propulsion force and the magnitude each weapon can possess

Or Nasu fucked up and forgot Ea when writing GoB's ranking with a range, because nothing else makes sense



> Ok, the random mucks have never been a problem,



They are when you're using the feat to suggest a speed feat for another person



> powerscalling works the same as every other shonen



I know, but you're not using that kind of powerscaling

Why should I assume their physical movements match her magic speed?


> and Irene guides the meteorite and react to it,



So do random children and no she doesn't

Prove the meteor wasn't guided by autonomous processes

Without exposition claiming its TK, you've got fuck all going for you here because manual and autonomous enchantment are both equally valid interpretations



> Erza doesn't have the scalling because it's bullshit writing but what she did doesn't really contradicts FT standard of massive power ups mid fight because of friendship power.



If she doesn't scale to it, being the only link to the feat, no one scales to it because it's otherwise a bunch of circular logic

A fucking parrot

The sparknotes edition

You've said fuck all new, again

You've literally repeated yourself


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Uh, just wondering.
> 
> Do we know if UBW's rankings are for what's inside the RM as opposed to the capacity it can hold?



Why would it be about capacity?

Its not like he can deplete what's in UBW

The shit can be destroyed while its deployed, but the weapons will be back next time he calls it, right?


----------



## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> EA and every possible EX rank NP that comes from a legend he could have inspired, since he was retconed to have the original of any NP for the sole reason of being the first heroic spirit, except stuff like God Hand that is a representation of a legend and not an object from the legend.
> 
> Also Enkidu that now is rank ???



Ea isn't an attack used with Gate of Babylon, so the value is referring to the stuff he chucks out of it. Everything else is speculation your part, start citing some sources.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So clearly Shirou/Archer can replicate the same
> 
> But you've got this narrative in your head where rank down clearly means A to B and not counting + for arbitrary nonsense



Because + and - aren't ranks, they are modifiers. B+ is a B NP that under certain circunstances can double his power but still doesn't posses the qualification for an A NP.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Given it gives a range, yet UBW is the same size every time?
> 
> It can't be the reality marble, but what he can do with it that gives it a range
> 
> ...



It's neither the size or the propulsion force (because a B NP shot from GOB wasn't effective vs God Hand) E-A++ might just by descriptivo of the range of things they could use, the stuff UBW can copy or maybe even the representation of how usefull each pocket dimension could be depending on it's use.

Why would GoB ranking be a mistake (specially when EA is described in the same stat page) but not UBW?



ChaosTheory123 said:


> They are when you're using the feat to suggest a speed feat for another person



There's the important detail of that person being the one that pulled the meteorite to earth.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know, but you're not using that kind of powerscaling
> 
> Why should I assume their physical movements match her magic speed?



Because she shouldn't be able to blitz them with anything, since their physical speeds and magic powers are far greater than hers.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> So do random children and no she doesn't
> 
> Prove the meteor wasn't guided by autonomous processes
> 
> Without exposition claiming its TK, you've got fuck all going for you here because manual and autonomous enchantment are both equally valid interpretations



Well the meteorite is being pulled by her magic and it is said that the magic enchants heavenly bodies  to control them, there's no magic circle in the ground to be used as a target or anything.



Qinglong said:


> Ea isn't an attack used with Gate of Babylon. Everything else is speculation your part, start citing some sources.



EA is an EX rank NP and part of the contents of GoB, Gilgamesh doesn't uses it like an arrow for his personal attachment and because it would be a waste.


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> EA is an EX rank NP and part of the contents of GoB, Gilgamesh doesn't uses it like an arrow for his personal attachment and because it would be a waste.



Ea is not part of the GoB Noble Phantasm, it's merely stored there. He doesn't use it for GoB's attack. Start citing where this is said.


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

Hell the entire reason Kid Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon has a lower rank is because the rank of the items used within it is weaker.


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Why would it be about capacity?
> 
> Its not like he can deplete what's in UBW
> 
> The shit can be destroyed while its deployed, but the weapons will be back next time he calls it, right?


 Meant more along the lines of the limit of shit Archer can copy.

Basically do we know if the E-A++(+?) refers to what's stored inside UBW or what can be stored inside it? In which case, Archer wouldn't necessarily have an NP of the latter rank.

Not arguing that he doesn't btw. Harming Berserker means there needs to be at least A ranked shit in there.


----------



## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Ea is not part of the GoB Noble Phantasm, it's merely stored there. He doesn't use it for GoB's attack. Start citing where this is said.



None of the things inside it are part of GoB, they where all collected inside.

When he's summoned EA is inside GoB from the very begining.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because + and - aren't ranks, they are modifiers.



Modifiers are part of a ranking system 

You're arguing semantics, and incorrectly at that



> B+ is a B NP that under certain circunstances can double his power but still doesn't posses the qualification for an A NP.



The fact that it can double its power is why a B+ is of higher ranking than B in the first place and conditionally so with an A



> It's neither the size or the propulsion force (because a B NP shot from GOB wasn't effective vs God Hand)



The hell did the narration specify weapon rank shot at Berserker to be a B and ineffective for that reason?



> E-A++ might just by descriptivo of the range of things they could use,



This is what I'm saying 

Ranges from generic ass swords to powerful dime store Excaliburs



> the stuff UBW can copy



Rank down would automatically turn an A++ into an A+, so no



> or maybe even the representation of how usefull each pocket dimension could be depending on it's use.



That makes no sense

It has the same utility every time its deployed and no circumstance would make it so worthless as to mark it akin to Angra Mainyu levels of worthless with the stockpile it possesses



> Why would GoB ranking be a mistake (specially when EA is described in the same stat page) but not UBW?



And that itself is fair, but bearing in mind, as Qing has said?

He never fires Ea, so it wouldn't be included in the propulsion ranking rating anyway



> There's the important detail of that person being the one that pulled the meteorite to earth.



Which, again, can be a function both autonomous or manual

It can be anything from magical magnetism type bullshit to TK

The fact that its ambiguous makes it impossible to attribute it to her own mental processes alone definitively

Which is important if you want to make the claim in the first place

So far... repeat time 3 in progress



> Because she shouldn't be able to blitz them with anything, since their physical speeds and magic powers are far greater than hers.



Why should I assume they can react to her magic speed?  

This reasoning alone of "shouldn't be able" needs supported by actual past precedent in the franchise



> Well the meteorite is being pulled by her magic and it is said that the magic enchants heavenly bodies  to control them, there's no magic circle in the ground to be used as a target or anything.



What part of "equally likely to be autonomous" do you not comprehend yet?

Nothing you've provided has actually clarified why it isn't an autonomous process


----------



## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because + and - aren't ranks, they are modifiers. B+ is a B NP that under certain circunstances can double his power but still doesn't posses the qualification for an A NP.


?

GO interludes literally show that NP rank ups also include modifiers.


----------



## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Meant more along the lines of the limit of shit Archer can copy.
> 
> Basically do we know if the E-A++(+?) refers to what's stored inside UBW or what can be stored inside it? In which case, Archer wouldn't necessarily have an NP of the latter rank.



I suppose this is a fair question in that regard 



> Not arguing that he doesn't btw. Harming Berserker means there needs to be at least A ranked shit in there.



I know

But we can't have Nasu threads without unrelated tangents fucking up the actual thread purpose

Someone remind me to start collecting human feats eventually, want them to take part in this sometime too


----------



## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> None of the things inside it are part of GoB, they where all collected inside.
> 
> When he's summoned EA is inside GoB from the very begining.



Gate of Babylon Noble Phantasm is him shooting his treasury at his opponent. Ea is not counted for this so it isn't listed as being EX. Again Fate Complete Material III flat out states it refers to the rank of the items and Kid Gil also shows it refers to his rank of the items used with the Noble Phantasm attack as Kid Gil has a smaller treasury and therefore a lower rank.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

Sablés said:


> ?
> 
> GO interludes literally show that NP rank ups also include modifiers.



I completely forgot about this

Granted, I'm new to GO, so I've not been acquainted with this particular shit long

Still, so much headache on such a stupid fucking tangent


----------



## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I completely forgot about this
> 
> Granted, I'm new to GO, so I've not been acquainted with this particular shit long
> 
> Still, so much headache on such a stupid fucking tangent



Yeah I personally forgot about this myself tbh until OSA mentioned it

Artoria's Excalibur is ranked down to A and then post interlude upgrades to A++


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 24, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Yeah I personally forgot about this myself tbh until OSA mentioned it
> 
> Artoria's Excalibur is ranked down to A and then post interlude upgrades to A++


yea like, Altera's Photon Ray goes from A to A+. +s are counted in the ranking system, whether they are modifiers or not


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> The fact that it can double its power is why a B+ is of higher ranking than B in the first place and conditionally so with an A



No, B+ is a B with a + to signal that it can do damage beyond that rank in certain situations.



Sablés said:


> ?
> 
> GO interludes literally show that NP rank ups also include modifiers.



What im saying is the description of the system acording to Nasu, what Go does for rank ups is it's own thing.

B+ is a simple B NP that under a certain condition augments it's destructive power beyond it's base, but it's still a B rank, thats why A/B/C are called rank and +  and - modifiers. It's the representation of an ability, not of a quality.

_For no particular reason, all the Servants had their abilities translated into specific parameters. 
It's pretty obvious just from looking at them that A is the strongest, but you might be thinking to yourself, "What on earth is all this B+ and A+ nonsense!?" Well, don't worry, because I'm going to take a moment to explain the rules behind it here. 
For sake of argument, let's assume that a normal value is 1. In that case, E would be 10. And, every rank after that adds another 10, all the way up to A, which is 50. 
Now, things like B+ and A+ represent the unique ability to multiply these numerical values for just an instant. 
In other words, an ability ranked B+ would normally be weaker than an ability ranked A, but can momentarily exceed it by doubling its own power from 40 to 80. 
Heroic Spirits with A+ (plus) are rare, those with A++ (double plus) are extraordinary, and those with A+++ (triple plus) are in a class all their own. 
Also, a truly exceptional ability score that falls outside the numerical ranking scale is represented by an EX.
Though Gilgamesh's ability scores generally aren't very impressive, his EX rank Noble Phantasm parameter clearly distinguishes him from the other Heroic Spirits._



ChaosTheory123 said:


> The hell did the narration specify weapon rank shot at Berserker to be a B and ineffective for that reason?



When Gil had to use his best treasures.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And that itself is fair, but bearing in mind, as Qing has said?
> 
> He never fires Ea, so it wouldn't be included in the propulsion ranking rating anyway



EA isn't the NP of shooting stuff, Gate of Babilon is a... gate 

It conects the space around Gil to his infinite storage of treasures, EA isn't any diferent as is obvious since he can pull the sword trough the gate just as he could any other. He doesn't use it as an arrow for character related reasons.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> What part of "equally likely to be autonomous" do you not comprehend yet?
> 
> Nothing you've provided has actually clarified why it isn't an autonomous process



How can it be automatic if the enchantment is made on the meteorite itself ?

She has to locate it and take control of it.


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## shade0180 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No, B+ is a B with a + to signal that it can do damage beyond that rank in certain situations.



Nasu isn't the OBD where we add + for shit we don't know that is higher than the suppose ranking.

 the + in Nasu is basically another rank even if they are the same letter.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He doesn't use it as an arrow for character related reasons.



 wow you understand this... nice... that's the thing the rank for GoB is the shit that he was using for arrows.. EA is not part of it. so it isn't EX...


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

Sorry but the canon literally says you're wrong. + modifiers are part of the rank.


EDIT: sniped by shade


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## shade0180 (Sep 24, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> + modifiers are part of the rank.



Pretty sure this was also included in Fate Extra when you are leveling your character.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> wow you understand this... nice... that's the thing the rank for GoB is the shit that he was using for arrows.. AE is not part of it. so it isn't EX...



He can shoot EA if he wanted.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Sorry but the canon literally says you're wrong. + modifiers are part of the rank.
> 
> 
> EDIT: sniped by shade



Another thing is that God Hand defends against anything B and below, B+ can't pierce it.


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

holy crap this is like talking to omgman or comicfan 101

part of the rank

part of

as in

not the whole rank


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No, B+ is a B with a + to signal that it can do damage beyond that rank in certain situations.



...

This isn't even an argument anymore

You had shaky grounds to stand on to start with, but FGO made you shit the bed



> What im saying is the description of the system acording to Nasu, what Go does for rank ups is it's own thing.



That cognitive dissonance game is strong 

FGO is Nasuverse

What you're proposing is head canon



> B+ is a simple B NP that under a certain condition augments it's destructive power beyond it's base, but it's still a B rank, thats why A/B/C are called rank and +  and - modifiers. It's the representation of an ability, not of a quality.



A modifier is still part of a rank

You parroting yourself ad nauseam doesn't change this fact chuckles



> _For no particular reason, all the Servants had their abilities translated into specific parameters.
> It's pretty obvious just from looking at them that A is the strongest, but you might be thinking to yourself, "What on earth is all this B+ and A+ nonsense!?" Well, don't worry, because I'm going to take a moment to explain the rules behind it here.
> For sake of argument, let's assume that a normal value is 1. In that case, E would be 10. And, every rank after that adds another 10, all the way up to A, which is 50.
> Now, things like B+ and A+ represent the unique ability to multiply these numerical values for just an instant.
> ...



Literally nothing about this runs contrary to anything everyone else has been discussing 



> When Gil had to use his best treasures.



And that specifically meant he was chucking B rank shit at Herc?


> EA isn't the NP of shooting stuff, Gate of Babilon is a... gate
> 
> It conects the space around Gil to his infinite storage of treasures, EA isn't any diferent as is obvious since he can pull the sword trough the gate just as he could any other. He doesn't use it as an arrow for character related reasons.



I'd just be parroting Qing/Shade at this point responding to you here



> How can it be automatic if the enchantment is made on the meteorite itself ?
> 
> She has to locate it and take control of it.



She doesn't need to do anything of the sort

Again, it could be a magic magnet and that interpretation is equally valid as anything else.  I can think up dozens of autonomous scenario that require no conscious input of control on her part and they would all be as viable as any proposed manual speculation because Mashima didn't clarify the mechanics

Without that clarification, speculation on definitive manual control is dead in the water


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## Sablés (Sep 24, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Another thing is that God Hand defends against anything B and below, B+ can't pierce it.


Oh for the love of...

Modifiers do not alter the Base in that context. No matter how many +s you add to B rank, it will never be classified as A. This does not mean B-B+++ aren't part of the rankings, this was a borderline non-sequitur.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 24, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Literally nothing about this runs contrary to anything everyone else has been discussing



It explains that B+ isn't a rank.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And that specifically meant he was chucking B rank shit at Herc?



Yes



ChaosTheory123 said:


> She doesn't need to do anything of the sort
> 
> Again, it could be a magic magnet and that interpretation is equally valid as anything else. I can think up dozens of autonomous scenario that require no conscious input of control on her part and they would all be as viable as any proposed manual speculation because Mashima didn't clarify the mechanics
> 
> Without that clarification, speculation on definitive manual control is dead in the water



It is clarified the enchantment is made on the meteorite, there's no magnetic magnet.



Sablés said:


> Oh for the love of...
> 
> Modifiers do not alter the Base in that context. No matter how many +s you add to B rank, it will never be classified as A. This does not mean B-B+++ aren't part of the rankings, this was a borderline non-sequitur.



It means B+ is still a B rank, losing a level means to go to a C rank.


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## Qinglong (Sep 24, 2017)

ranked down Excalibur is still A rank

you are literally wrong

stop being wrong JFC


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 25, 2017)

Literally all that needs to be said on the rank matter

Reactions: Like 3


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

Point is B+ can't harm Berserker, whose description is "anything B and below can't harm him". The ranks descriptions says that the plus symbol indicates a B rank with the ability to increase it's power in certain situations.

That's why Archer died against Berserker and Gilgamesh won easily, Emiya doesn't have A rank NP in UBW.

There


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## shade0180 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> P*oint is B+ can't harm Berserker*




You do know he killed berserker six times.. so he did harm him right about 6 times..

 you know.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> That's why Archer died against Berserker and Gilgamesh won easily,



Gil used enkidu against berserker which has a property as anti divine weapon...


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## Sablés (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Point is B+ can't harm Berserker,





lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Emiya doesn't have A rank NP in UBW.


>Archer kills Herc 6 times

I refuse to believe this isn't ironic shitposting at this point.


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## Sablés (Sep 25, 2017)

Also you're wrong even then.

Gilgamesh "easily" beat Herc because he abandoned fighting properly in order to protect Ilya.


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## shade0180 (Sep 25, 2017)

> *Chain of Heavens [Armament]*
> A Noble Phantasm that Gilgamesh preferred. Its true name is Enkidu.
> This was the chain that bound the Bull of Heaven that caused Uruk seven years of famine. To Gilgamesh, it was a Noble Phantasm that he trusted like Ea, no, it was a Noble Phantasm that he trusted more than Ea.
> Its ability is *"to rule the Gods"*.
> ...



There's also this shit as supporting statement why Enkidu was perfect for Berserker.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It explains that B+ isn't a rank.



No, it really doesn't

I get that English is clearly not your first language from the grammar structure of some of your sentences, but don't go asserting shit that isn't true because of it dude



> It is clarified the enchantment is made on the meteorite, there's no magnetic magnet.



And award for most the non sequitur goes too...

Magic enchantment isn't a standardized brand of magic

Its not TK where the entire process is mentally controlled

Without exposition to the mechanics, nothing suggests an enchantment requires any mental input on her part to call on the meteor to that general location

You don't have this, its too vaguely defined to get anything out of

You have no leg to stand on and are literally on repeat

Either offer something new or shut up



> It means B+ is still a B rank, losing a level means to go to a C rank.



No, it doesn't

You're contradicted by both old and current content

You're either trolling at this point, failing to grasp English due to being a second language, or just repeating yourself with no variation to pretend like you have something substantial to offer



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Point is B+ can't harm Berserker, whose description is "anything B and below can't harm him". The ranks descriptions says that the plus symbol indicates a B rank with the ability to increase it's power in certain situations.



Pick up a damn dictionary and thesaurus already

Because nothing you've posted reflects what you're implying



> That's why Archer died against Berserker and Gilgamesh won easily, Emiya doesn't have A rank NP in UBW.



I can't fathom the mental gymnastics you're going through to reach these conclusions


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> Gil used enkidu against berserker which has a property as anti divine weapon...



He had taken 9 to 10 lives by then.

He also broke Enkidu despite having A rank divinity 



Sablés said:


> >Archer kills Herc 6 times
> 
> I refuse to believe this isn't ironic shitposting at this point.



If he can Spam dozens of them why didn't he do that?

We don't know what happened in that fight, what we do know is that B+ is still considered a B when it comes to God Hand. You even have the description that says the plus symbol indicates an ability of said NP.



Sablés said:


> Also you're wrong even then.
> 
> Gilgamesh "easily" beat Herc because he abandoned fighting properly in order to protect Ilya.



And Gilgamesh was just standing still shooting an endless supply of A ranked NP.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Pick up a damn dictionary and thesaurus already
> 
> Because nothing you've posted reflects what you're implying



Point where is the mistake.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't generally use the negative ratings on here dude

How do you fuck up badly enough to get me to use one?



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If he can Spam dozens of them why didn't he do that?



Why does every asshole in Star Wars forget they have super powers when the plot calls for it?



> We don't know what happened in that fight



Which is a lie

Again, Berserker's narration and musings assert it was a sword fight and mourns the fact didn't possess his sanity to employ his full skills to have a proper duel.



> what we do know is that B+ is still considered a B when it comes to God Hand.



And its a good thing UBW has A rank NP in it because a + is still considered a rank for rank down purposes



> And Gilgamesh was just standing still shooting an endless supply of A ranked NP.



Yeah, he could afford to because Berserker had Illya to concern his ass with

Without that, he could have charged Gil from the start with no worries


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Point where is the mistake.



Its your job to point out what part you think makes the "+" not part of the rating system

I can't offer rebuttal to information you don't supply 

Posting a quote and expecting me to process it like you do is asinine


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## Sablés (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If he can Spam dozens of them why didn't he do that?


Non-sequitur

Where do you get Archer being able to produce the necessary weapon rank to damage Berserker and end up with swordspam?

Not to mention Archer probably doesn't even have the mana to pull that shit off. GoB is cost efficient for the amount of bullshit Gil has. Archer on the other hand needs to project those swords.


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## Sablés (Sep 25, 2017)

> As a result, *Chains of Heavens was actually a more troublesome Noble Phantasm for Berserker than Excalibur.*



Neat. As this supports Herc can conditionally bring out enough strength to exceed Excalibur since he broke the chains.


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## Fang (Sep 25, 2017)

GoB is about Gilgamesh throwing a bunch of random growing number of noble phantasms he keeps in his treasury. Ea has never counted as part of that, it was said in the VN he stores it there but nothing else.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Which is a lie
> 
> Again, Berserker's narration and musings assert it was a sword fight and mourns the fact didn't possess his sanity to employ his full skills to have a proper duel.



No, it means they clashed swords in the fight not that it was a pure melee fight. Because EMIYA would have gotten crushed.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yeah, he could afford to because Berserker had Illya to concern his ass with
> 
> Without that, he could have charged Gil from the start with no worries



The point is that Gil can rain down A rank NP on Berserker, even without Illya he would get bind by Enkidu and killed, Emiya could do the same if not for the big diference the novel makes between his projections and the originals, all his swords are downgraded.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Its your job to point out what part you think makes the "+" not part of the rating system
> 
> I can't offer rebuttal to information you don't supply
> 
> Posting a quote and expecting me to process it like you do is asinine



Is part of the rating system, but B+ isn't above B despite being better, that's why
-God Hand description is "B and lower..."
-When we saw Archer using something that could kill Heracles it was a broken Phantasm
-Archer can't just shoot Berserker dead like Gil.
-Cu needs to rank up his B+ to A with runes
-The explanation for + and - is "a modifier that means this (B Np) can increase his power beyond A, but not his mystery/concept/hax/history to reach a true A rank"
-In interviews A+ and B+ are always just called A and B, - description was vague af.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Non-sequitur
> 
> Where do you get Archer being able to produce the necessary weapon rank to damage Berserker and end up with swordspam?
> 
> Not to mention Archer probably doesn't even have the mana to pull that shit off. GoB is cost efficient for the amount of bullshit Gil has. Archer on the other hand needs to project those swords.



UBW is cheap unless the projected shit isn't a sword or you have to project it again because it was destroyed or because it wasn't ready on deploy. Shiro was matching everything GoB was launching without much issue.

The only reason he would get tired is if he was supercharging the swords as he did in HA in the bridge battle.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> No, it means they clashed swords in the fight not that it was a pure melee fight. Because EMIYA would have gotten crushed.



Again, this is also a lie

Because Herk also mourns how he'd have been able to passing an enjoyable time trading sword techniques if he were sane

EMIYA is a mimic, he replicates the skills and strength of those who once possessed the weapons he wields

His baseline stats aren't indicative of his actual power with a given weapon



> The point is that Gil can rain down A rank NP on Berserker, even without Illya he would get bind by Enkidu and killed,



You mean the thing he broke out of?

Great strategy there



> Emiya could do the same if not for the big diference the novel makes between his projections and the originals, all his swords are downgraded.



By 1 rank, equivalent to a +

There is no big difference and you're interpreting his not employing blade spam as not being able to use it to kill when numerous other explanations can fit

You can't think laterally, as has been demonstrated with our riveting discussion on the meteor feat

Blade spam can kill, but costs more than Gil's zero cost GoB spam (the only mana it eats is the shit it uses to open), it was more economical to use whatever he did in his duel than it would be to use it and UBW

The point of that fight was to buy Rin, Shirou, and Saber as much time as possible while also trying to win as a secondary goal

But let's burn stamina even faster and rob them precious time to regroup



> Is part of the rating system, but B+ isn't above B despite being better, that's why



You confuse the fact a + grants conditional superiority for not being part of the degradation in ranking

Your premise has no foundation and no chains to link it to your conclusion

Its a baseless assertion and just you on nigh verbatim repeat

So, as previously offered earlier?

Either say something new, or shut up



> When we saw Archer using something that could kill Heracles it was a broken Phantasm



You're trying to make connections, and I applaud your efforts, but you're going to suffocate trying to breath through that straw

Employing a BP once to kill Berserker doesn't mean he can only kill him via BP

Its just the method he chose for that particular moment


> Archer can't just shoot Berserker dead like Gil.



Baseless assertion


> Cu needs to rank up his B+ to A with runes



Non sequitur



> The explanation for + and - is "a modifier that means this (B Np) can increase his power beyond A, but not his mystery/concept/hax/history to reach a true A rank"



Hey, look, repeating himself like it means something again



> Cu needs to rank up his B+ to A with runes



Repeat non sequitur


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> UBW is cheap unless the projected shit isn't a sword or you have to project it again because it was destroyed or because it wasn't ready on deploy. Shiro was matching everything GoB was launching without much issue.



Its still more costly than spamming GoB and certainly more costly than employing 5-6 individual attacks

He was buying time for everyone to flee

Wasting stamina is not only counter to that goal, but doesn't guarantee he would have taken more lives

Archer would fight economically and intelligently, and that doesn't include a storm of blades buy the dozen to hundreds



> The only reason he would get tired is if he was supercharging the swords as he did in HA in the bridge battle.



Baseless assertion


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 25, 2017)

tbf Herc breaking the chains was a mircle iirc. Since it binds space on sufficiently divine targets


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> By 1 rank, equivalent to a +
> 
> There is no big difference and you're interpreting his not employing blade spam as not being able to use it to kill when numerous other explanations can fit
> 
> ...



If he can make A ranks he wins in a minute instead of fighting a pointless battle where he was definitely going to lose.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Non sequitur



Not even close.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> You confuse the fact a + grants conditional superiority for not being part of the degradation in ranking
> 
> Your premise has no foundation and no chains to link it to your conclusion
> 
> ...



You aren't getting the + isn't called a rank and that this interpretation doesn't contradicts the visual novel.

A B+ is a B NP with a plus, B+ can't be superior in rank to B because it can't pierce God Hand.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Baseless assertion



It happened.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If he can make A ranks he wins in a minute instead of fighting a pointless battle where he was definitely going to lose.



Baseless assertion and assumption on multiple fronts regarding time frame, stamina consumption, and ease of the fight especially given EMIYA would never target Illya like Gil was lacking concern with

None of these concerns are addressed, thus drawing conclusions as you're desperately trying to has no actual grounds



> Not even close.



Get a dictionary already



> You aren't getting the + isn't called a rank and that this interpretation doesn't contradicts the visual novel.



You aren't getting that beating a dead horse and employing a stone wall isn't an actual debate tactic

You've contributed nothing new and the little you did lacked any substance



> It happened.



The "baseless assertion" is the conclusion that this only happens via super charging shit like Hrunting

Instead of assuming what I mean?

Ask me to clarify if what I said confused you chuckles


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> tbf Herc breaking the chains was a mircle iirc. Since it binds space on sufficiently divine targets



The miracle in question is that his divinity is trumped by his super strength being superior to the resistance his divinity grants his ass in comparison


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Baseless assertion and assumption on multiple fronts regarding time frame, stamina consumption, and ease of the fight especially given EMIYA would never target Illya like Gil was lacking concern with
> 
> None of these concerns are addressed, thus drawing conclusions as you're desperately trying to has no actual grounds



He has 20+ to choose from the Berserker vs Gilgamesh fight alone.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> The "baseless assertion" is the conclusion that this only happens via super charging shit like Hrunting
> 
> Instead of assuming what I mean?
> 
> Ask me to clarify if what I said confused you chuckles



Hrunting is A rank, he projected it 5 times and made them BP.

He isn't getting tired from using A rank Np in a swordspam.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Get a dictionary already



That about Gae Bolg is word of god.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He has 20+ to choose from the Berserker vs Gilgamesh fight alone.



And Gil had a dart board to hit compared to the maneuverability Herk would have not needing to defend Illya from stray weapons



> Hrunting is A rank, he projected it 5 times and made them BP.
> 
> He isn't getting tired from using A rank Np in a swordspam.



Just how many of Gil's numerous weapons do you think ended up being fatal blows landing in fatal locations?

How many dozens of weapons did he need to fire?  And he still only took the minimum number of lives?

Because EMIYA's not getting the chance to hit Berserker Pin Point, especially vs an unencumbered Herk that Gilgamesh didn't have the misfortune of figthing



> That about Gae Bolg is word of god.



Again, wires are crossing in your head

Let me do the thinking for you like everyone else, because I'm clearly better at it

B+ to A doesn't mean the + isn't part of the rank nor does it mean the A rank isn't A+

Nasu doesn't even refer to the "+" shit in the quote to start with regarding Gae Bolg

Hell, there's no allusion to the thrown Gae Bolg or any particular variant in the quotation in the first place

But let's read more into Nasu's words than what's intended and runs directly counter to materials released much later onward

You're drawing connection where dots aren't even on the page


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

Read up on this btw chuckles

This fits what you're doing right now to the T

You're not even doing it well, the connections you make being loose at best and non-existent at worst

Reactions: Like 2


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 25, 2017)

In other news

Anyone have something actually new to contribute?

Given we've wrung this discussion dry on semantics that don't matter

Only useful thing to come of it being we know for sure the meteor feat applies to nothing but magic attack speed

At any rate, I've procrastinated enough, fuck this shit for now.


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## shade0180 (Sep 25, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> You aren't getting the + isn't called a rank and that this interpretation doesn't contradicts the visual novel.



 stonewalling isn't helping you when we already showed multiple sources that you know contradicted your claim.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Only useful thing to come of it being we know for sure the meteor feat applies to nothing but magic attack speed



well yea, that's another angle they could probably use for it.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 25, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Again, wires are crossing in your head
> 
> Let me do the thinking for you like everyone else, because I'm clearly better at it
> 
> ...



Doesn't matter because both uses are B and B+, until it hits A is useless.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Just how many of Gil's numerous weapons do you think ended up being fatal blows landing in fatal locations?
> 
> How many dozens of weapons did he need to fire? And he still only took the minimum number of lives?
> 
> Because EMIYA's not getting the chance to hit Berserker Pin Point, especially vs an unencumbered Herk that Gilgamesh didn't have the misfortune of figthing



Shiro literally matches Gil in a sword for sword clash, you yourself think Archer can fight against Heracles in a sword fight despite all evidence pointing to him getting wrecked badly but you also think he wouldn't get Berserker with his proyectiles.



shade0180 said:


> stonewalling isn't helping you when we already showed multiple sources that you know contradicted your claim.



That's just grand order contradicting the visual novel


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## Qinglong (Sep 25, 2017)

Grand order didn't contradict anything. Stop being wrong.


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## Kurou (Sep 25, 2017)

Trumps wall isnt up yet


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## shade0180 (Sep 25, 2017)

that's the point trump is stonewalling his wall..


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 25, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> that's the point trump is stonewalling his wall..



Wallception. 

So I missed most of this argument and the last couple of pages made my head hurt.

Why exactly is there an argument over UBW having access to A rank NP's?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 25, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> Wallception.
> 
> So I missed most of this argument and the last couple of pages made my head hurt.
> 
> Why exactly is there an argument over UBW having access to A rank NP's?


because this guy is being an idiot. Archer clearly has access to them


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 25, 2017)

"LAWL" projected NPs loosing  rank.  Clearly  not  stronk  enough . Thats basically it


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## John Wayne (Sep 25, 2017)

All it means is his "blade spam" is less effective than GoB since they cost more and are a bit less powerful.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 25, 2017)

His entire argument falls apart when you take not that the original Caladbolg is A+ and EMIYA's is A.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 25, 2017)

John Wayne said:


> All it means is his "blade spam" is less effective than GoB since they cost more and are a bit less powerful.



It's not like Emiya actually bladespams people all that often.

Most Servants are fast enough to cross the distance between them before getting overwhelmed, hence why Shirou can't beat the other Servants.

From what I got he uses it to speed up and alleviate the cost of the stronger NP's he needs to fight people like Saber and Herc.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

Also, Clarent loose one rank and goes from B to C.

Unless Apo doesn't count


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Also, Clarent loose one rank and goes from B to C.
> 
> Unless Apo doesn't count


Clarent Blood Arthur? its A+


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 26, 2017)

Clarent is her sword.  The blade  beam is clarent blood arthur and thats A+


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

aah. Well B doesnt downgrade to C++ or whatever, it goes down to C. but it ranks up to B+


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 26, 2017)

Well it doesent  matter either  way. Dude is just grasping at straws.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Well it doesent matter either way. Dude is just grasping at straws.



That's why I asked if Apocrypha counts.

This is legit the only place where people consider the + to be a rank, it's interesting. If Emiya can indeed project A ranks that's neat because the "would only be an annoyance against any other servant" thing can be disproved.


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

He can project A rank


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## Qinglong (Sep 26, 2017)

Caladbolg is A rank. he can project it. JC I haven't seen this much straw grasping in months.


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> That's why I asked if Apocrypha counts.
> 
> This is legit the only place where people consider the + to be a rank, it's interesting. If Emiya can indeed project A ranks that's neat because the "would only be an annoyance against any other servant" thing can be disproved.


Every  fate work counts overall.archer isnt  a mere  annoyance to a servant.  Thats just downplaying on your  part


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Every fate work count overall.archer isnt a mere annoyance to a sergent. Thats just downplaying on your part



Well then there you go, B-1=C at least in _that _grail war.

I called that quote an incoherence before so you can stop the downplay accusations.


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## Qinglong (Sep 26, 2017)

Right, I'm going to go bang my head against a wall, because it's clearly more productive than this conversation.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> aah. Well B doesnt downgrade to C++ or whatever, it goes down to C. but it ranks up to B+



Why would a B downgrade to a C++

That's mathematically nonsense

C++ is 180 on the NP scale while a B is an 80

The mystery may be "less", but the power is conditionally greater



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Doesn't matter because both uses are B and B+, until it hits A is useless.



Addressed nothing I said

Listen, if my words confuse you?

Instead of half assing a rebuttal to your personal straw man non sequitur?

Ask for elaboration



> Shiro literally matches Gil in a sword for sword clash,



Because he's a mimic and emulates the skill and strength of the weapons he holds like Emiya, yes

Gil's weaker than Berserker as it stands in raw strength and Shirou already has the capacity to project weapons with the strength to match blows with the fucker in other routes



> you yourself think Archer can fight against Heracles in a sword fight



It's not just "what I think"

The narration tells us



> despite all evidence pointing to him getting wrecked badly



He's a mimic, Kanshou and Bakuya aren't his only swords

And even with only Kanshou and Bakuya, Shirou in Sparks Liner High (just shy of Archer per his own psychometric assessments) was trading blows with Saber Alter and managed to bisect her

A character that absolutely wrecked Berserker the brief time they did fight



> but you also think he wouldn't get Berserker with his proyectiles.



Do I think he can tag him?

Yes

Do I think he would consistently land fatal blows in a cost effective manner?

No, and nothing in preexisting information corroborates that conclusion either

Lateral thinking, you don't possess any


> That's just grand order contradicting the visual novel



No, it isn't

And even if it was by some bizarre alien logic, Grand Order is the latest entry into canon and functions to retcon much of preestablished Nasu bullshit like Servants not remembering past summons anyway


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> This is legit the only place where people consider the + to be a rank, it's interesting.



Because ad populum makes their interpretations correct *shrugs*



> If Emiya can indeed project A ranks that's neat



There was never any doubt he could



> because the "would only be an annoyance against any other servant" thing can be disproved.



It's disproved in his introductory VN

God is a dumbass that frequently contradicts himself

The only words of his of any use are the ones lacking contradiction, everything else gets chucked out a window into a fire


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because ad populum makes their interpretations correct *shrugs*



It doesn't but is fun either way, I just made an account in BL to ask and see if that changed over there.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> Addressed nothing I said
> 
> Listen, if my words confuse you?
> 
> ...



What im saying there is that it doesn't matter if it goes from B+ to A or to A+, neither does it matter if is the barbed or soaring use.

Cu has to get A before doing anything at all to Berserker, because he nullifies everything B and lower, if B+ can't pierce that then B+ isn't superior to B in terms of rank.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> And even if it was by some bizarre alien logic, Grand Order is the latest entry into canon and functions to retcon much of preestablished Nasu bullshit like Servants not remembering past summons anyway



Servants really shouldn't tho, except Saber because she was a special case. Didn't knew it was retconed.

What do you make of Clarent going from B to C?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

Clarent went from B to C because Mordred stole it. Like what the fuck kind of question is that


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> *Cu has to get A before doing anything at all to Berserker, *because he nullifies everything B and lower, *if B+ can't pierce that then B+ isn't superior to B in terms of rank*.



where did you get this?



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> What do you make of Clarent going from B to C?



It was degraded due to being stolen...


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It doesn't but is fun either way, I just made an account in BL to ask and see if that changed over there.



Go for it *shrugs*





> What im saying there is that it doesn't matter if it goes from B+ to A or to A+, neither does it matter if is the barbed or soaring use.
> 
> Cu has to get A before doing anything at all to Berserker, because he nullifies everything B and lower, if B+ can't pierce that then B+ isn't superior to B in terms of rank.



Apologies

I confused you mentioning this as something relevant to your point that was substantiated by corroborative evidence

Not just more baseless supposition

Your conclusion, that B+ can't be superior to B is based on the faulty premise B+ isn't higher on the alphabetical scale, but still conditionally stronger than a straight A

Again, your argument has been beaten to death and this tangent not relevant to discussed stats either way for our purposes. Because distinguishing between base stats and NP is impossible due to where and when stat scaling starts at



> Servants really shouldn't tho, except Saber because she was a special case. Didn't knew it was retconed.



From what I understand Tamamo and Nero also remember shit about each other from Extra and Emiya alludes to Mooncell's Nameless

That's hearsay for me ATM though.



> What do you make of Clarent going from B to C?



Don't know the relevance as we're discussing + ranking


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

Anyway Nasu put this..

So he admits Cu can indeed kill berserker..



			
				[URL='http://typemoon.wikia.com/wiki/Encyclopedia/Fsm#Gae_Bolg' said:
			
		

> v[/URL]]  - Encyclopedia: Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death [Noble Phantasm], p.061-062 ]In order to evade Gae Bolg, one would require Noble Phantasms that automatically resurrected the target after death like that of Berserker's,


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Clarent went from B to C because Mordred stole it. Like what the fuck kind of question is that





shade0180 said:


> It was degraded due to being stolen...



Yeah, a single rank.



shade0180 said:


> where did you get this?



An interview, unless you mean where do I get *B+ can't pierce that then B+ isn't superior to B in terms of rank *that's just what I get from it.

*Q. Lancer, Caster, Assassin, and True Assassins; all with normal attack and Noble Phantasms of B or lower. If they fought against Berserker, wouldn't it be a one-sided fight? Or are there any of them that can match up against him?*

*A:* Assassin and True Assassin by themselves wouldn't even be a fight. Lancer can use his runes and Noble Phantasm together to temporarily raise the rank to A, but it'd still be a very disadvantageous fight but "one with some chances"


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

You have a habit of reading information not stated or alluded to into your premises to draw conclusions

Stop doing that, it's the entire fucking cause of these last 150 odd posts

Reactions: Agree 2


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Yeah, a single rank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



that doesn't say that B+ can't harm berserker.

It only told us that Lancer can Achieve A rank

so how did you conclude that B+ can't harm berserker?


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> that doesn't say that B+ can't harm berserker.
> 
> It only told us that Lancer can Achieve A rank
> 
> so how did you conclude that B+ can't harm berserker?


Especially a conceptual technique that would kill Arcueid .if it can kill Arc.it can mill berserker


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> that doesn't say that B+ can't harm berserker.
> 
> It only told us that Lancer can Achieve A rank
> 
> so how did you conclude that B+ can't harm berserker?



Because it says he needs to use runes to get to A before having any chance at all.



ChaosTheory123 said:


> You have a habit of reading information not stated or alluded to into your premises to draw conclusions
> 
> Stop doing that, it's the entire fucking cause of these last 150 odd posts



If you mean the Gae Bolg thing I would guess anyone would interpret that the same way.

If it's about Clarent the single rank downgrade is actually stated 
_It was originally a B rank sword bestowed during the succession of kingship, used to amplify the king’s authority… the king’s royal aura. Concretely, it raises the owner’s physical stats by one rank, and grants and raises the skill “Charisma”. However, since Mordred was never acknowledged as king, the sword itself is lowered by one rank and she cannot acquire any bonuses while wielding it._


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Especially a conceptual technique that would kill Arcueid .if it can mill Arc.it can mill berserker



That's Barbed the B rank skill.

Soaring is the non- conceptual B+ regular _fuck everything in that direction_ NP.


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Because it says he needs to use runes to get to A before having any chance at all.



It said *One chance*. which is technically true because Berserker gets immunity to the same NP after one death.

he need to kill berserker 12 different times or take all 12 life with that single hit, which basically means that one chance..


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> It said One chance. which is technically true because Berserker gets immunity to the same NP after one death.



Technically is just high resistance but yeah, he could kill him once after leveling up to A with his runes.


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Technically is just high resistance but yeah, he could kill him once after leveling up to A with his runes.



so how did that conclude that B+ doesn't work?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 26, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> aah. Well B doesnt downgrade to C++ or whatever, it goes down to C. but it ranks up to B+



It would be more correct to say it _can_ rank up to B+ or go straight to A.



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If you mean the Gae Bolg thing I would guess anyone would interpret that the same way.



How do you figure that when we've all been saying you're wrong?



shade0180 said:


> that doesn't say that B+ can't harm berserker.
> 
> It only told us that Lancer can Achieve A rank
> 
> so how did you conclude that B+ can't harm berserker?



Harming Heracles isn't about power. It's about conceptual ranking bullshit. Artoria made an analogy that a theoretical B rank NP that destroyed the planet wouldn't harm him directly because of conceptual rules. It has to be a mystery equal or greater than his divinity to harm him.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> If you mean the Gae Bolg thing I would guess anyone would interpret that the same way.



I don't even get the impression you read what I said, let alone understood it



> If it's about Clarent the single rank downgrade is actually stated
> _It was originally a B rank sword bestowed during the succession of kingship, used to amplify the king’s authority… the king’s royal aura. Concretely, it raises the owner’s physical stats by one rank, and grants and raises the skill “Charisma”. However, since Mordred was never acknowledged as king, the sword itself is lowered by one rank and she cannot acquire any bonuses while wielding it._



I genuinely don't get why you think decreasing from B to C helps you

Do you think that somehow invalidates the + being part of the rank?

It's amazing how you draw conclusions out of absent premises


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Harming Heracles isn't about power



Okay so Berserker's divinity being A, okay. got ya.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> How do you figure that when we've all been saying you're wrong?



You think B+ can pass God Hand?



ChaosTheory123 said:


> I genuinely don't get why you think decreasing from B to C helps you
> 
> Do you think that somehow invalidates the + being part of the rank?
> 
> It's amazing how you draw conclusions out of absent premises



A Noble Phantasm has a 1 rank decrease and goes from B to C. 

At least in that novel, the + and - are simple modifiers separated from the ranks.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 26, 2017)

The rule of Godhand is it has to be A rank or above. It's not a linear power scaling thing it's conceptual. B+ is momentarily superior to A rank in power not in mystery.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> And?



Your comparison with Cu vs Arcueid has nothing to do with anything.


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## Qinglong (Sep 26, 2017)

JC How does anyone not understand what the words part of means.

am I speaking latin or some shit?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Kurou (Sep 26, 2017)

I mean at this point you might as well ignore him and get on with any other relevant discussion


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> It would be more correct to say it _can_ rank up to B+ or go straight to A.


Yea i forgot to mention that. Thanks


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 26, 2017)

How the fuck did this dude managed to derail the disccusion so bad that now we're debaring about Berserker's GH and it's resistance to different ranks ??
I can't even...
One momente it's about Archer, the next moment it's Berserker..what's next ? Kuzuki's shoe size ? Fucking mental gymnastics


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## Crimson King (Sep 26, 2017)




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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> A Noble Phantasm has a 1 rank decrease and goes from B to C.
> 
> At least in that novel, the + and - are simple modifiers separated from the ranks.



A B is a 80 and a C is a 60 while a C++ is a 180 and a C+ is a 120

I quote myself and think I'll just follow Kurou's words and carry on as this discussion is being derailed by you plugging your ears, saying nothing new



ChaosTheory123 said:


> You have a habit of reading information not stated or alluded to into your premises to draw conclusions
> 
> Stop doing that, it's the entire fucking cause of these last 150 odd posts


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> A B is a 80 and a C is a 60 while a C++ is a 180 and a C+ is a 120
> 
> I quote myself and think I'll just follow Kurou's words and carry on as this discussion is being derailed by you plugging your ears, saying nothing new



Are you saying a C+(60) would downgrade to A(50)?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

No, but how difficult is it to get that part of the rank is the concept and the other part a modifier?

Get out of my thread, you've contributed nothing new other than the death of Fairy Tail's speed

Reactions: Like 1


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No, but how difficult is it to get that part of the rank is the concept and the other part a modifier?
> 
> Get out of my thread, you've contributed nothing new other than the death of Fairy Tail's speed



Well no one else seemed to have anything to say about the fights but sure.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Well no one else seemed to have anything to say about the fights but sure.



You're not saying anything about the fights though

You've kept us on a tangent for 150-200 posts that doesn't even impact the actual stats of one of the characters being discussed

I have no issue with discussing fights, but the topic in question is a dead horse on lore semantics


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

Emiya-Archa is still a scrub though.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> You're not saying anything about the fights though
> 
> You've kept us on a tangent for 150-200 posts that doesn't even impact the actual stats of one of the characters being discussed
> 
> I have no issue with discussing fights, but the topic in question is a dead horse on lore semantics



Then this is my opinion

With their speeds in the same ballpark, the destructive capacity and their hax would edge this for the higher tiered Sprigans, where exactly would depend on how the fights develop (who uses what move first, which of their skills they try first, etc.)

Rave is stronger than FT, so they would win too.

Important questions would be if they can move in Di' Maria's timestop as Archer did in Caster's, same for extremelly casual BFR (hundreds of targets with one move) and matter manipulation all the way to island level.

And which Servants are virgins I guess.

After the Spriggans there's Zereff killing curse and his time rewind that he uses as regeneration and Acnologia's vague af powers.


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## shade0180 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> And which Servants are virgins I guess.



You do know every summon servants body is literally brand new made by the grail right?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

shade0180 said:


> You do know every summon servants body is literally brand new made by the grail right?



Right


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> Emiya-Archa is still a scrub though.



Berserkerlot got his ass kicked by a ranked down Jeanne and n00b Mash 

Pretty sure Gilles had a better showing against them tbh in so much he was more of a sponge 

Granted, the same Mash defeated Blackened Emiya and Seiba Alter, but she also had Caster Cu Chulainn as her help *shrugs*



lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Then this is my opinion
> 
> With their speeds in the same ballpark, the destructive capacity and their hax would edge this for the higher tiered Sprigans, where exactly would depend on how the fights develop (who uses what move first, which of their skills they try first, etc.)



What exactly is a spriggan btw?



> Rave is stronger than FT, so they would win too.



Sure, but individually how far do they get into RAVE in terms of the strongest they can fight?



> Important questions would be if they can move in Di' Maria's timestop as Archer did in Caster's, same for extremelly casual BFR (hundreds of targets with one move) and matter manipulation all the way to island level.



Don't remember how effective Medusa's petrification was other than being passive and able to effect you without even needing to be seen by you

What sort of feats does Di'Maria's timestop have?

What sort of BFR?  Though odds are they'd need a command seal to get them out of that and I have them all here masterless *shrugs*

And which Servants are virgins I guess.



> After the Spriggans there's Zereff killing curse and his time rewind that he uses as regeneration.



How was he killed in the end I guess?

And what are the mechanics of the curse?


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Berserkerlot got his ass kicked by a ranked down Jeanne and n00b Mash



The same Mashu and party also state that Berserklot >>> Jeanne Alter whose > that Jeanne + Vlad, Martha, and Carmilla and Trapkun.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> The same Mashu and party also state that Berserklot >>> Jeanne Alter whose > that Jeanne + Vlad, Martha, and Carmilla and Trapkun.



Nah

The quote was Berserkerlot was more "frightening", not more "powerful" 

Which makes sense because just look at the fucker and his mannerisms


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nah
> 
> The quote was Berserkerlot was more "frightening", not more "powerful"
> 
> Which makes sense because just look at the fucker and his mannerisms



Nah my ningen. Mashu has only used her NP like a total of three times prior to part 2 of the game's story; against Saber Alter, against Lancelot (Berserker), and Lion King Saber.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> Nah my ningen. Mashu has only used her NP like a total of three times prior to part 2 of the game's story; against Saber Alter, against Lancelot (Berserker), and Lion King Saber.



Are we talking about the same quote?

Because I've only played content through to the end of Septem and only saw the one calling Berserkerlot the most frightening servant Mash has fought just before ranked down Jeanne and Mash shit can him 

That said, its not a demerit to Berserkerlot, and more a feat for Mash and Jeanne anyway (both Jeanne and Mash block/parry at least one of his strikes, so that was cool)

Just the same way EMIYA vs Gawain wouldn't be a negative for Gawain, but a positive for EMIYA


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Are we talking about the same quote?
> 
> Because I've only played content through to the end of Septem and only saw the one calling Berserkerlot the most frightening servant Mash has fought just before ranked down Jeanne and Mash shit can him
> 
> ...



You totally missed my point. 

And this is still going from the line of reasoning that Emiya is indeed a scrub tier conventionally speaking against most high and top tier Servants. Also Extra and CCC shit don't really scale into the main continuity anyways so there's that.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What exactly is a spriggan btw?



The last arc villain group




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Don't remember how effective Medusa's petrification was other than being passive and able to effect you without even needing to be seen by you
> 
> What sort of feats does Di'Maria's timestop have?



Seemingly at least several kilometers and there's no mention of strain on her part, it activates from clicking her teeth. It was countered by another time mage and someone just being far stronger than her. Then has an upgrade where the god of time posses her body and can make the target relive the pain from his entire life

*Spoiler*: __ 

















ChaosTheory123 said:


> What sort of BFR? Though odds are they'd need a command seal to get them out of that and I have them all here masterless *shrugs*



The user just claps once and sends everyone to another dimension, seems to be area related.

*Spoiler*: __ 















ChaosTheory123 said:


> How was he killed in the end I guess?
> 
> And what are the mechanics of the curse?



He got punched really hard 

*Spoiler*: __


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> You totally missed my point.
> 
> And this is still going from the line of reasoning that Emiya is indeed a scrub tier conventionally speaking against most high and top tier Servants.



Sure, and Aoko is a scrub Magus in a conventional sense *shrugs*

Convention and Nasu are too entirely irreconcilable concepts though 

EMIYA being a mimic and Aoko being the most fuel efficient sorcerer under the sun respectively being why convention doesn't matter 



> Also Extra and CCC shit don't really scale into the main continuity anyways so there's that.



He fights Gawain in his strengthening quest too in FGO if I saw correctly


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Sure, and Aoko is a scrub Magus in a conventional sense *shrugs*
> 
> Convention and Nasu are too entirely irreconcilable concepts though
> 
> EMIYA being a mimic and Aoko being the most fuel efficient sorcerer under the sun respectively being why convention doesn't matter



Yeah but EMIYA is also shit enough that he has to be reinforced by the Counter-Force just to be a sub-par Servant. Which is a big fucking deal if that isn't a factor boosting him with the Throne of Heroes compared to regular Servants because being a Counter-Guardian is not that hot shit.


> He fights Gawain in his strengthening quest too in FGO if I saw correctly



If my memory serves, most of the strengthening quests in FGO are done in the dreams of the Masters and Servants and not anything else. So not sure how that really counts. Arash reminisces with the Protagonist in his which is a callback to his past living life when he killed a Demon God, comparatively. I know Prototype Cu and Cu are both that way too. Maybe Qing or Rob can reconfirm for us.

Also Lancelot > Gawain anyways too.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The last arc villain group



Gotcha



> Seemingly at least several kilometers and there's no mention of strain on her part, it activates from clicking her teeth.
> It was countered by another time mage and someone just being far stronger than her. Then has an upgrade where the god of time posses her body and can make the target relive the pain from his entire life



Sounds pretty broken

Only way to really even compare Medea's to it would be establishing you can powerscale the Blue's feats to Medea's shit given Age of Gods sorcery had shit comparable and commonplace to Blue, but the ages are incompatible thus making the comparison more difficult *shrugs*



> The user just claps once and sends everyone to another dimension, seems to be area related.



As you know from reality marbles, sans Gil via Ea, no one really has an answer to escaping dimensions



> He got punched really hard



So

Basically what Shirou and Seiba did with Caliburn vs Berserker

Hax just isn't hax when it can be overwhelmed by conventional shit 



Fang said:


> Yeah but EMIYA is also shit enough that he has to be reinforced by the Counter-Force just to be a sub-par Servant.  Which is a big fucking deal if that isn't a factor boosting him with the Throne of Heroes compared to regular Servants because being a Counter-Guardian is not that hot shit.



Sure, but that's still just base stats

If we're discussing full power set, he hits out of his weight class




> If my memory serves, most of the strengthening quests in FGO are done in the dreams of the Masters and Servants and not anything else. So not sure how that really counts. Arash reminisces with the Protagonist in his which is a callback to his past living life when he killed a Demon God, comparatively. I know Prototype Cu and Cu are both that way too. Maybe Qing or Rob can reconfirm for us.



If they're done in dreams and are some kind of call back to a past life, isn't the fact he's fighting the roster from Extra in them for GO indicative of his powers in general for the timeline?

Its not exactly like he needed the mythic formal wear for those fights, right?  Why wouldn't they apply? 



> Also Lancelot > Gawain anyways too.



Sure, but I wasn't really comparing EMIYA to Lancelot in the first place and more just prodding your favorite for prodding mine


----------



## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Sure, but that's still just base stats
> 
> If we're discussing full power set, he hits out of his weight class



Sure but he still isn't close to the high or top Servants even in base abilities.





> If they're done in dreams and are some kind of call back to a past life, isn't the fact he's fighting the roster from Extra in them for GO indicative of his powers in general for the timeline?
> 
> Its not exactly like he needed the mythic formal wear for those fights, right?  Why wouldn't they apply?



Everything with the Moon Cell is completely separate from main continuity Type-Moon/Fate stuff. Otherwise we'd have regular Gilgamesh sitting at small galaxy level and fuck no that's not gonna fly with so many contradictions between the two continuities.

The stuff with Emiya's strengthening stuff is more gameplay and less lore bound compared to his interludes but again I'll be happy reserving or accepting a different judgment if someone like Rob or Qing can shed more light on it since I haven't paid attention to this stuff in over a year.




> Sure, but I wasn't really comparing EMIYA to Lancelot in the first place and more just prodding your favorite for prodding mine



Emiya is your favorite?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> Sure but he still isn't close to the high or top Servants even in base abilities.



I know in terms of base ability he doesn't reach them

Its only when he starts playing mimic he can reach that kind of realm



> Everything with the Moon Cell is completely separate from main continuity Type-Moon/Fate stuff.



I just thought it was a separate throne, not necessarily different stats entirely 



> The stuff with Emiya's strengthening stuff is more gameplay and less lore bound compared to his interludes but again I'll be happy reserving or accepting a different judgment if someone like Rob or Qing can shed more light on it since I haven't paid attention to this stuff in over a year.



I don't know anything other than what I was able to research anyway

Do the strengthening quests not have any dialogue fluff to them?  Or do they just jam you right into the fight with no context before and after?



> Emiya is your favorite?



One of them

Berserkerlot is another for example, but I like EMIYA more.

I like the power set and the concept

And the snark, probably mostly the snark

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kurou (Sep 26, 2017)

Im not familiar with where FZ and F/S characters are at stat wise cuz I dont keep up with calcs


What are we talking about stat wise for everyone?


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Im not familiar with where FZ and F/S characters are at stat wise cuz I dont keep up with calcs
> 
> 
> What are we talking about stat wise for everyone?



Tried covering some of it  and .  The Nasu Thread has some thread marks relevant to discussion too

Still need to cover a bunch of shit, but this is a start anyway *shrugs*


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Wait

The fuck did all my links go?

Is youtube not even fucking allowed anymore?


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> So
> 
> Basically what Shirou and Seiba did with Caliburn vs Berserker
> 
> Hax just isn't hax when it can be overwhelmed by conventional shit



Depending on translation he was either burning time or the time magic, so I guess it was a case of "my magic is stronger than yours"

Medea might be able to do something, aside from that rewinding shit he fights normally with punches and energy beams.

The curse was from some god, it's actually a contradiction thing where it kills the things he loves or something, he's inmortal because he hates himself , but he can be KO'd or incapacitated just fine.

He can use it as a weapon but has never done so in anyone important.


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> I know in terms of base ability he doesn't reach them
> 
> Its only when he starts playing mimic he can reach that kind of realm



Stealing NPs > copying them them though.



> I just thought it was a separate throne, not necessarily different stats entirely



Like I said, Moon Cell shit is why Extra and Extra CCC are completely different things from regular TM/Fate stuff.



> Do the strengthening quests not have any dialogue fluff to them?  Or do they just jam you right into the fight with no context before and after?



Both of them have fluff, lore and dialogue stuff. First interlude with Emiya is directly having the story through the character tell the protagonist Master that Emiya isn't able to use UBW until his first interlude story mission.



> One of them
> 
> Berserkerlot is another for example, but I like EMIYA more.
> 
> ...



Liking Emiya is fine but there are better sarcastic and cynical Servants then him, Hans and Ozymandias being up there.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> Stealing NPs > copying them them though.



Sure, but both are powerful abilities to begin with



> Like I said, Moon Cell shit is why Extra and Extra CCC are completely different things from regular TM/Fate stuff.



I've also heard Tamamo and Nero remember shit from Extra in FGO?



> Both of them have fluff, lore and dialogue stuff. First interlude with Emiya is directly having the story through the character tell the protagonist Master that Emiya isn't able to use UBW until his first interlude story mission.



I know that much, played through that part of the game yesterday.

Was talking about the strengthening quests we won't be seeing in NA until next yearish



> Liking Emiya is fine but there are better sarcastic and cynical Servants then him, Hans and Ozymandias being up there.



Because I've run into them yet 

Something wrong with Emiya though?  You say its fine to like him as if its something conditional here


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## Brightsteel (Sep 26, 2017)

you guys need more farmer with a sword


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## Qinglong (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> If my memory serves, most of the strengthening quests in FGO are done in the dreams of the Masters and Servants and not anything else. So not sure how that really counts. Arash reminisces with the Protagonist in his which is a callback to his past living life when he killed a Demon God, comparatively. I know Prototype Cu and Cu are both that way too. Maybe Qing or Rob can reconfirm for us.
> 
> Also Lancelot > Gawain anyways too.







ChaosTheory123 said:


> If they're done in dreams and are some kind of call back to a past life, isn't the fact he's fighting the roster from Extra in them for GO indicative of his powers in general for the timeline?
> 
> Its not exactly like he needed the mythic formal wear for those fights, right?  Why wouldn't they apply?
> 
> ...




To be exact here


some of them are dreams and some of them are real

Mumei and EMIYA have divergent histories but have the same basic abilities, but Mumei's wrought iron is boosted by the Moon Cell allowing him to project weapons he couldn't elsewhere

Mumei beat Leo's Gawain, but the details of the fight aren't clear since Code Casts can create an upset if used correctly, like with Gawain without Numeral beating Karna in CCC/Foxtail because his master was awful and didn't know how to utilize him properly (and well I guess the fact he didn't have his armor didn't help either), but Leo implies if Jinako wasn't such a terrible master he wouldn't have been able to win


that said, Camelot confirms Lancelot stalemated Numeral Gawain in life and could do it again as a Servant as long as he doesn't have the buff up permanently, which he essentially did in Camelot singularity

And Urobutcher mentions in an interview about how dangerous Berserker lancelot is supposed to be


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> To be exact here
> 
> 
> some of them are dreams and some of them are real
> ...


>Karna lost to unNumeral'd Gawain

man shes a worse master than BoG Hakuno


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

Karna also got punished for wasting VS before fighting Gil if memory is right


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 26, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> To be exact here
> 
> 
> some of them are dreams and some of them are real



Which does Emiya's count as?



> Mumei and EMIYA have divergent histories but have the same basic abilities, but Mumei's wrought iron is boosted by the Moon Cell allowing him to project weapons he couldn't elsewhere



Alright



> Mumei beat Leo's Gawain, but the details of the fight aren't clear since Code Casts can create an upset if used correctly, like with Gawain without Numeral beating Karna in CCC/Foxtail because his master was awful and didn't know how to utilize him properly (and well I guess the fact he didn't have his armor didn't help either), but Leo implies if Jinako wasn't such a terrible master he wouldn't have been able to win



What's a code cast?



> that said, Camelot confirms Lancelot stalemated Numeral Gawain in life and could do it again as a Servant as long as he doesn't have the buff up permanently, which he essentially did in Camelot singularity



Cool

Btw, how does Berserker compare to the Knights of the Round Table anyway?


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> What's a code cast?



Command Spell equivalent in Extra/Extra CCC/Extella.



> Cool
> Btw, how does Berserker compare to the Knights of the Round Table anyway?



The tangent is about Saber Lancelot who may or may not be equal or slightly above/below Berserker Lancelot. Nominally, Gawain and Lancelot are the strongest with EAM confirming Lancelot being "unrivaled in his era" and the "strongest knight of the Round Table" which includes Saber/Arturia, Gawain, Agravain, Mordred, Bedievre, and Tristan.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 26, 2017)

Magecraft doesnt exist in Extra, considering the Grail War takes place inside a giant computer and the earth is devoid of mana.

Spiritron hackers are essentially mages and code casts are essentially magecraft.


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## Qinglong (Sep 26, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Which does Emiya's count as?



Emiya's was real

one of Altera's for example was a dream iirc


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Magecraft doesnt exist in Extra, considering the Grail War takes place inside a giant computer and the earth is devoid of mana.
> 
> Spiritron hackers are essentially mages and code casts are essentially magecraft.



Also exactly this. The only thing less AU in Fate than Extra/CCC/Extella is F/A.


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> Also exactly this. The only thing less AU in Fate than Extra/CCC/Extella is F/A.



And, y'know.


The magical girl spinoff.


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## Fang (Sep 26, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> And, y'know.
> 
> 
> The magical girl spinoff.



We don't talk about that.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 26, 2017)

Fang said:


> We don't talk about that.



But then we can't talk about Alt!Shirou


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## bitethedust (Sep 27, 2017)

>talking about Shirou
>from the degenerate dimension

lol


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 27, 2017)

The salt about Kaleid and everyone that belongs to that verse is pretty funny though.Youd think it insulted everything  pure in this world or some shit


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## ChaosTheory123 -- Fate Feats (Servants FSN) (Sep 27, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Im not familiar with where FZ and F/S characters are at stat wise cuz I dont keep up with calcs
> 
> What are we talking about stat wise for everyone?



Let's just start with the currently relevant calcs

Caladbolg  and , Excalibur/Caliburn  and Excalibur 

Will eventually fix the vanished video citation links for these, but not right now.

 (apparently shot from Venus) might be relevant in the future given Hollow Ataraxia gives the claim that Excalibur is also , but I don't remotely know enough about FGO to try playing that game of connect the dots.

It's also a claim from Shirou, but his Psychometry in the form of Structural Grasp and the weapons inside UBW because of he's able to read them with said ability lends to his ability to make that kind of judgment.  Just ends up largely being dependent on whether Gil's weapons compare to Ishtar's.

Now to regather how all this shit connects together~


*Spoiler*: __ 



Berserker (Heracles)

 Archer's  enough so that it  ,  Excalibur from Saber [ wouldn't have been able to take 2 lives, implying it at least passed the threshold to take 1], and was stated to be able to 

Saber (Artoria)

Excalibur is comparable/superior to the conditional power of .  Is capable of    Berserker.  Has  Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish,  between her Excalibur and Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, has    from Berserker, has  from a Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki (who has demonstrated the physical might to  and  from Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon), and  Rider's Pegasus with Invisible Air to some success.

As Saber Alter she's  Caladbolg II, survived being ,

Archer (EMIYA)

Is able to put up a   against Lancer and Saber, able to  and  Caster's magic, able to  Assassin, and Shirou employs his imperfect imitations of his strength and skill to  and  Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki's and Saber Alter's strikes.  He's also outright  wielding .  Triple-Linked Crane Wings was employed  Saber Alter.   was employed to Kill Heracles at least 1 time.  His sword spam via UBW would compare to Shirou's  Gil's.   was listed earlier and Hrunting was shown capable of being able to  and  Saber's physical strikes and  Shirou Emiya‘s .  Also   Berserker in .  Also  via Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon, his body  Saber's   before disappearing due to fatal wounds, and is comparable to Saber (who has rank C Endurance under Shirou, where most of her durability feats actually occurred).  With Rho Aias  Shirou's 4 Petal variant is able to  Excalibur Morgan's power, Archer's 7 Petal variant is much stronger.

FGO's opening animation also has him  Jeanne,  Berserkerlot.  Mostly just serves to further corroborate his and Shirou's fights with Berserker Heracles and Saber Alter respectively.

Gilgamesh

Gate of Babylon is  from Berserker.  Full Powered Ea as  of Fate/Strange Fake.  His armor has  from Saber,  Shirou and Saber's , and is comparable to Saber (also has a rank C in Endurance ).

Caster (Medea)

Capable of  Berserker and  Saber to halt her forward momentum and counter her physical power.  Is capable of reacting to and dodging attacks from Saber and Archer.   a  from Caladbolg II, which had enough power to  she hastily erected to defend herself.  Also, while proving fatal, she's capable of briefly enduring both Gilgamesh's  and Archer's  before disappearing from her wounds.  Her magic shields are stated to be  Berserker's body

Lancer (Cu Chulainn)

Is able to  Saber,  Archer's  with Gáe Bolg: Striking Death Flight, and can elevate his Gáe Bolg to A Rank via runes to give him  facing Berserker.  Durability he just scales to Saber because more C rank Endurance. When employing all his runes he is  a great Noble Phantasm

Assassin (Sasaki Koujirou)

Can trade strikes with Saber through a combination of skill and physical might and can potentially kill her with Tsubame Gaeshi.  Durability is comparable to Avenger (a being capable of briefly surviving with a fatal wound that was caused by a strike powerful enough to inflict a moderate wound onto Saber) and his body survived Saber's counterattack before disappearing due to fatal wounds much later.

Will fetch the shit for Assassin, Lancer, and Caster later.  Will cover Fate/Zero later too.



Qinglong said:


> Emiya's was real
> 
> one of Altera's for example was a dream iirc



So his strengthening quest(s) or so I've heard involve fighting the fuckers from Extra

Ending with Gawain



Fang said:


> Also exactly this. The only thing less AU in Fate than Extra/CCC/Extella is F/A.



Seems like Grand Order ties it all together though, so why's this even relevant?


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## Qinglong (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> L
> 
> 
> So his strengthening quest(s) or so I've heard involve fighting the fuckers from Extra
> ...



The inerludes are usually real, but I have no idea what strengthening quests are considered. They aren't mentioned or alluded to at all. TBH some of them feel like fixing mistakes DW did when creating the game, like Siegfried's interlude saying Balmung unlocked its true power but it... doesn't


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> The inerludes are usually real, but I have no idea what strengthening quests are considered. They aren't mentioned or alluded to at all. TBH some of them feel like fixing mistakes DW did when creating the game, like Siegfried's interlude saying Balmung unlocked its true power but it... doesn't



Fair enough *shrugs*

Not exactly like its Archer that needs comparisons to the Knights of the Round Table anyway

They're rather the ones dependent on linking to shit from FSN


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## Qinglong (Sep 27, 2017)

All of their stuff is either in Camelot or Prototype Fragments accolades which aren't officially translated yet

Cept Lancelot cause Zero and Garden of Avalon and Gawain cause Extra /CCC


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> All of their stuff is either in Camelot or Prototype Fragments accolades which aren't officially translated yet
> 
> Cept Lancelot cause Zero and Garden of Avalon and Gawain cause Extra /CCC



That's kind of what I mean

Lancelot basically links to Numerals Gawain and Lancelot is reliant on Saber from Fate/Zero that's stronger than Shirou Saber *shrugs*

Mash, also basically Galahad, starts her adventure by blocking Excalibur Morgan

The rest I know fuck all about though.


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## Fang (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Seems like Grand Order ties it all together though, so why's this even relevant?



It doesn't.


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## Qinglong (Sep 27, 2017)

I mean, they are still alternate universe but with the exception of mumei's wrought iron they have roughly the same abilities, outside boosts notwithstanding aka DDotS Vlad


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Fang said:


> It doesn't.



Because that's chalk full of substance and in no way something I should question 

The rank stats are the same in general across the continuities

It just kind of strikes me as putting on blinders to not use the entire franchise for unexplained and probably arbitrary reasoning, especially when you yourself have gone on about the franchises' nature as being multimedia akin to Star Wars



Qinglong said:


> I mean, they are still alternate universe but with the exception of mumei's wrought iron they have roughly the same abilities, outside boosts notwithstanding aka DDotS Vlad



Sure

Still far more straight forward than other crossover franchises


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## Fang (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because that's chalk full of substance and in no way something I should question
> 
> The rank stats are the same in general across the continuities
> 
> It just kind of strikes me as putting on blinders to not use the entire franchise for unexplained and probably arbitrary reasoning, especially when you yourself have gone on about the franchises' nature as being multimedia akin to Star Wars



Because Prisma Illya is literally straight up AU shit with no basis, overlap, or parlay merging with other works. To  use your argument trying to equate equality with EU/Legends with Star Wars, its the equivalent to Infinities. Non-canon, AU, separate doing its own thing entirely. The event with Illya in F/GO isn't part of the story lore.


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## Qinglong (Sep 27, 2017)

Illya is a special case though

Apo still happened and some parts of Extra

FSF is the real ??? 


and I hope it stays that way


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Fang said:


> Because Prisma Illya is literally straight up AU shit with no basis, overlap, or parlay merging with other works.



Do they still have the letter rankings?

If so, what basis exists to suggest their arbitrary power level/mystery system is vastly different from the rest of the franchise? 

Not that I'm even talking about Illya's whatever the fuck and rather Extra/Extella/Apocrypha

Maybe I misread that part of your original post?



> To  use your argument trying to equate equality with EU/Legends with Star Wars, its the equivalent to Infinities. Non-canon, AU, separate doing its own thing entirely. The event with Illya in F/GO isn't part of the story lore.



Sure, its some condemned dead end that UD linked the mechanics for to me

That doesn't exactly make it as if it never happened, just that the World wanted it gone because it was a dead end.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Illya is a special case though



So, we get no letter ranks or the like stat sheets?

If we do, why would they be any different from the rest of the franchise?

They're points of comparison, and one power level chart only aesthetically looking the same without an actual concrete cited reason for why its only aesthetic is arbitrary



> Apo still happened and some parts of Extra
> 
> FSF is the real ???
> 
> and I hope it stays that way



Sure, but I'm just talking about how Nasu has a rather universal comparison metric across the franchise 

Why would it be different here if they give the same shit there?


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 27, 2017)

How is Kaleid not canon when Nasu concepts  like the quantum timelock actualul worked  through it?there is also zelretch being  involved.  Just bacause  the world  died doesent mean it never happened. It pretty far away from the main fate world. but it is still part of the multiverse


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

@Ultimate Deathsaurer 

Keep a leash on this, I'm not having this devolve too deep into a canon discussion

I may be a sadist over small ires like series fuckers don't enjoy, but I also want my thread to stay on topic


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## Qinglong (Sep 27, 2017)

Ah, I meant in terms of placement/lore when I said special case, not for stat comparisons.

That's all I'll say since I'm not interested in another derail


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 27, 2017)

What's this stuff I keep hearing about prisma's world dying?

The Ainsworth alt world, sure, but Illya's is literally "hey what if Kiritsugu screwed over the HGW forever instead of his family"

It's still running fine, hence why Miyu was sent there in the first place.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 27, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Ah, I meant in terms of placement/lore when I said special case, not for stat comparisons.



Given we're in a vs thread I thought stat comparison was implicit as the intended topic *shrugs*

Don't care or know about the series, just thought it weird something that has all the same dressings like the stat sheets would arbitrarily not be treated the same



> That's all I'll say since I'm not interested in another derail



And that is good enough for me


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## Kurou (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Berserker (Heracles)
> 
> Archer's  enough so that it  ,  Excalibur from Saber [ wouldn't have been able to take 2 lives, implying it at least passed the threshold to take 1], and was stated to be able to



at 200+ gigatons to kill him once no one actually had the fire power to kill him in the series outside of Elie and Endless

At mach 400 reactions he's faster than most of the cast sans the high and top tiers

and  if his strikes are 200gt as well (deflecting CII) he could flatten everyone he hits

When it comes to the demon gods

Jiero's only hope is freezing him. She has regen but she's never been hit by attacks of that magnitude

Megido doesn't have the output to kill him and neither does Uta. Megido's supposed country buster got cut by Shuda so we don't actually get to see much destruction. Though he did leave a big ass pool of lava

Asura's supposed to have every db power so he could probably bfr or immobilize him ect

As for some other people

Fighting Hardner is just a battle of attrition till Hardner gets tired because of the Resurrection DB. Anastasia would make it impossible to actually kill Hardner until he ran out of energy. I imagine using it to bring back all of Berserkers old wounds probably wouldn't help because of God Hand

Sieg might be able to bfr him with Altearith or a time rift

Lucia has all the mother DB which also means final story which gives him access to every other DB ability so he'd be good

Haru doesn't have all of the hax that Lucia has though.






> Saber (Artoria)
> 
> Excalibur is comparable/superior to the conditional power of .  Is capable of    Berserker.  Has  Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish,  between her Excalibur and Gilgamesh's Enuma Elish, has    from Berserker, has  from a Caster Reinforced Souichirou Kuzuki (who has demonstrated the physical might to  and  from Gilgamesh's Gate of Babylon), and  Rider's Pegasus with Invisible Air to some success.
> 
> As Saber Alter she's  Caladbolg II, survived being ,



If Berserker can deflect 200gt attacks with his strikes and she can match him it's the same scenario really

granted she'd get screwed over by any anti magic abilities

ill take a look at the rest later


also I do't need links to youtube vids ive played Fate. Just the relevant calcs ect would be nice. I dont have the attention span for that really


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 27, 2017)

Runesave might be able to seal Godhand


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## Kurou (Sep 27, 2017)

Without knowledge he wouldnt think to use it


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 27, 2017)

True, oh well


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## TYPE-Rey (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Is able to trade physical strikes with Saber, broke Archer's Rho Aias with Gáe Bolg: Striking Death Flight, and can elevate his Gáe Bolg to A Rank via runes to give him  facing Berserker. Durability he just scales to Saber because more C rank Endurance.


It is also said that Lancer would be able to block a great NP with his Runes. This might add to his durability.


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## BackwoodSlav (Sep 27, 2017)

Kurou said:


> at 200+ gigatons to kill him once no one actually had the fire power to kill him in the series outside of Elie and Endless
> 
> At mach 400 reactions he's faster than most of the cast sans the high and top tiers
> 
> and if his strikes are 200gt as well (deflecting CII) he could flatten everyone he hits


If I understood this correctly, then are you saying that not even EoS Haru and Lucia would be able to deal with the likes of Berserker with simple raw power? Despite the fact that they should get powerscaled to the First Overdrive, which is pretty far into the country level range? I'm not exactly an expert on the matter, but a quick google search tells me that 171.7 teratons (ChaosTheory's yield for the first overdrive) is pretty far above 200 gigatons.

I'm not quite sure how this new linking policy works, but since I have some free time, I can at least post the exact chapters and pages (from MangaSee portal, but I'm pretty sure most sites have the exact same scans available anyway) to prove why they should scale to that thing:

1.) Plue with the power of four separate RAVE pieces was able to shield Shiba even right at the ground zero of the First Overdrive (Chapter 1, pages 44 - 45). Haru later on in the series gets the completed RAVE, which is explicitly stated to be vastly superior to even the five separate pieces combined (Chapter 94, page 3). If a weaker character with a weaker artifact can tank that thing, then it should definitely scale to Haru.

2.) The First Overdrive was triggered by just one of the Mother DB/Sinclaire (Chapter 82, page 9). EoS Lucia has access to the combined form of all 5 Mother DB + an additional powerup from Endless (Chapter 245, pages 14 - 18 & chapter 290, pages 6 - 7). For all intents and purposes, he should have access to a power source far superior to what triggered the Overdrive first time around.

3.) One of the demon gods (Megido) claims that his strongest attack can destroy a country (Chapter 285, page 15). While he does lack the feats to support this, the fact that he was able to injure Endless badly enough to actually slow him down (Chapter 169, pages 9 - 13) does lend the claim at least some credit.

I think that the only servant who can possibly clear RAVE is Gilgamesh (assuming no Extra/CCC stuff is involved), but that depends entirely on how fast you consider the servants to be (I'm not sure if that whole lightspeed Excalibur from a while ago stuck or not) and whether or not you think that Runesave sealing Etherion is a legit feat, since that magic can do more or less everything that Ea can, what with being a planetary threat that can distort space/time (Chapter 170, pages 13 - 14). I personally think that it should be legitimate, since a random ass magic bracelet was able to block EoS Elie's magic (Chapter 287, pages 11 - 13), despite having no real hype and being later casually destroyed by Musica with zero effort (Chapter 290, pages 15 - 16). In this case, any possibly contradictory feats from earlier wouldn't count, since Haru just recently had a huge upgrade for both his sword and RAVE stone. But that's just my own personal opinion on the matter, and it probably wouldn't make a difference if Gil is LS anyway.


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## Kurou (Sep 27, 2017)

i couldn't remember the yield for overdrive

I swore the highest calc for rave was like

6 gigatons


im old leave me alone

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Kurou (Sep 27, 2017)

Also Musica's a claimer so he probably just used his ability on the bracelet


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## Fang (Sep 27, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Do they still have the letter rankings?
> 
> If so, what basis exists to suggest their arbitrary power level/mystery system is vastly different from the rest of the franchise?
> 
> ...



All I'm saying is its not canon. And yes they still have the same arbitrary rankings, at least the cameo characters being used as Servants do in F/GO.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 27, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Also Musica's a claimer so he probably just used his ability on the bracelet


yea im 100% sure this is what he did

anyway Lucia could basically create a Decalogue with Runesave, a weaker Haru using Runesave sealed Etherion. sealing shit in RAVE is just op


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## Jikaishin (Sep 28, 2017)

They stop at Alvarez empire I think

Does some of them have sense removal immunities ?


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## Divell (Sep 28, 2017)

Why put actually good verses against shit-tier?


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## CrossTheHorizon (Sep 28, 2017)

Divell said:


> Why put actually good verses against shit-tier?



We've been asking you that question for years.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Divell (Sep 28, 2017)

CrossTheHorizon said:


> We've been asking you that question for years.


I have no idea what you're talking about.


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## BackwoodSlav (Sep 28, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Also Musica's a claimer so he probably just used his ability on the bracelet





OneSimpleAnime said:


> yea im 100% sure this is what he did


While true, that same Musica literally almost died trying to forge Haru's new sword, which does show that Ravelt's basic specs are far superior to that trinket. When combined with the fact that the Magic Bracelet literally came out of nowhere and has zero actual hype, I think it's sealing abilities are something that Runesave should get scaled to (which was the main point of my argument). 


OneSimpleAnime said:


> a weaker Haru using Runesave sealed Etherion. sealing shit in RAVE is just op


Yeah, but in one of my earlier metadome threads some posters tried to argue that Runesave sealing Etherion way back in the early chapters was inconsistent with the rest of it's showings (I disagreed, but the consensus was never really reached on anything). Which is why I decided to use the example of the Bracelet instead, since any of those possible "contradictions" wouldn't apply there (due to the fact Haru just recently got a massive upgrade for his equipment).


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## Crimson King (Sep 28, 2017)

Fairy Tail more like Very Fail

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Sep 28, 2017)

All of you stop.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 28, 2017)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> All of you stop.



Do whatever you will with the clowns if they don't

Fuckers can shit post in their respective convos

Don't lock the thread while I'm busy though 

Just want to wring out even a page worth of constructive posts

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## OSL (Sep 30, 2017)

Gilgamesh solos if he wants to use Ea


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 30, 2017)

Well since we scale RAVE God tiers/top tiers to Overdrive, they are gonna have a much harder time clearing.


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## Fang (Sep 30, 2017)

Wait why is Sakura in this?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Sep 30, 2017)

Dark Sakura maybe? Base Sakura doesn't really have any feats


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## ChaosTheory123 (Sep 30, 2017)

Fang said:


> Wait why is Sakura in this?





OneSimpleAnime said:


> Dark Sakura maybe? Base Sakura doesn't really have any feats



He pretty much covers it *shrugs*

Thread's purpose is just largely to spread awareness of scaling of shit introduced in FGO outside the tier thread, and updating the humans is part of that

We apparently have a profile for her and it kind of sucks


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## ChaosTheory123 -- Fate Feats (Humans) (Oct 3, 2017)

Right, let's cover some (at least Shirou for now) humans


*Spoiler*: __ 



Shirou Emiya (Fate)

_Destructive Power_

Via Caliburn he  Berserker's arm (with a  of Caliburn) and  with him (including while the sword Caliburn is in the ).

More a feat for Gil (because it further corroborates he possesses a parity in raw strength with Saber), but he  with him too.

If the thought ever occurred to him to ever use something other than Caliburn, he has the option of Gram, Gae Bolg, the 20 odd Weapons he saw of Gil's, and probably Kanshou and Bakuya.

_Speed_

Even  to amplify his movements and reactions, Shirou is fast enough to react to and project a copy of Caliburn in less time than it takes Berserker to swing his sword.

It also goes without saying while projecting Caliburn that he's fast enough to trade strikes with Berserker in addition to possessing sufficient strength for the task

_Durability_

Via his  Shirou manages to   from Gram that destroyed his  projected Caliburn and Gil expected said strike to reduce Shirou to , calling him tough for the feat.

Shirou Emiya (Unlimited Blade Works)

_Destructive Power_

As mentioned previously, wielding Kanshou and Bakuya, Shirou can  Kuzuki's strikes.  He's also able to  Gilgamesh by virtue of his mimic bullshit powers that let him wield his projected Noble Phantasms with degraded copies of the strength as skill of their owners.

Furthermore, he's  Gil's GoB spam with his own sword spam.

Further, in this route he's been able to see notable weapons like Gae Bolg, , just about everything Gil was chucking at him and at Berserker, and Rule Breaker.

_Speed_

He's no slower than his Fate route self, though he has his own reaction feats like  without anything in particular augmenting him past baseline.

He does the same vs Gil by 

_Durability_

Doesn't really have many feats in that regard, though  should offer him similar defensive buff to what Archer gets.  He also  Kuzuki while wielding them, so that's a thing.  He's also able to .

Shirou Emiya (Heaven's Feel)

_Destructive Power_

A shitty projection of Berserker weapon  of Blackened Berserker's strikes

 offs Blackened Berserker 9 times.  In Sparks Liner High he's   and can  strikes from Saber Alter on top of  Triple-Linked Crane Wings.  He   as shown vs Saber Alter.  His body, basically a corpse, is capable at death of projecting a degraded copy of Excalibur which was the only thing he could do that was powerful enough to off the Grail/Angra Mainyu.

_Speed_

Covered by Sparks Liner High, though he again  react to and close a 10 meter gap, and project a shitty copy of Berserker's rock sword in the time Berserker takes to swing at Ilya.

_Durability_

Guess you can call it a durability feat that he  by the force of Berserker's second strike after his shitty projection was wrecked

His whole "suit of swords" thing would basically be an amplified variant of the shit he pulled off in the Fate route... just with the draw back of risking puncturing his internal organs.

Unlike his UBW self, he can only .  This however proves enough to block about  from fucking with Bellerophon.

Think he also reinforced himself to endure a beating from Shinji Rider way before Archer's arm, but I can't bother to fetch that at the moment because it doesn't really matter too much *shrugs*


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

Probably the same as the others. Makes it to the high and top tiers


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

I still can't believe you forgot the Overdrive's power dude 

Might as well  while I'm at it


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

Ever since I came back a few years ago I never bothered getting up to speed with anything and the shit I did know I forget

Meh


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm not even really talking calcs, more that you forgot a major plot point of one of your favored nostalgia series 

But all fair enough


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

Let's gather some stuff for Kotomine too

Not feats atm, because I can't bother rereading Kirei vs True Assassin or Fate Shirou vs Kirei

But accolades work well enough

For @Ultimate Deathsaurer 

Let's first establish what an average Noble Phantasm is considered



			
				Comptiq 2005-10 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A said:
			
		

> *Q. I have a question about the Servants vs. other character answer in the 9th issue of Comptiq. About a Servant with an average Noble Phantasm, who would have one and what rank would that have been?*
> 
> *A:* That's a serious question. The level of the Noble Phantasm would be B, and ability being represented by numbers would be called an average Noble Phantasm. Broken Phantasm, Barrier of the Wind King (C), Gae Bolg (thrown) (B), that sort.
> On the other hand, those with conceptual effects, destiny interference types fall into a special category. With Gae Bolg (regular), no matter how much Arcueid might be superior to Lancer in numbers, she will be killed depending on her luck, you see.



Now let's list who can fight this kind of servant defensively



			
				Comptiq 2005-09 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A said:
			
		

> *Q: In the other Type-Moon works, who else besides Arc can fight against Servants?*
> 
> *A:* If we're working on the condition of one on one, with an extremely average Noble Phantasm. Generally most of the 27 Ancestors, Kishima Kouma, Aozaki Aoko.
> If it's just a defensive fight, but would still be a fight, then Ciel. Shiki (Rakkyo), Shiki (Tsukihime) are no match for Servants....but Ryougi Shiki (3rd personality) might be able to go as far as the Ciel class.



And now let's establish how Kotomin would fair against Ciel



			
				Fate/complete material II said:
			
		

> *Kirei Kotomine*
> 
> *Nasu Kinoko & Takeuchi Takashi • Character Discussion*
> 
> ...


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

I smell bulshit at Kirei being able to beat Ciel. It  is extremely unlikely that he would be able do anything against a serios Ciel going all-out with the magecraft she knows from Roa,reinforcement  and the Seventh Holy Scripture.
Against the normal version of Ciel, the one only  wielding only black-keys, he might have a chance.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> I smell bulshit at Kirei being able to beat Ciel. It  is extremely unlikely that he would be able do anything against a serios Ciel going all-out with the magecraft she knows from Roa,reinforcement  and the Seventh Holy Scripture.
> Against the normal version of Ciel, the one only  wielding only black-keys, he might have a chance.



Unlike my discussion about incongruity between Ciel and Bazett compared to Shirou in the Nasu Tier?

Still feel that's kind of unresolved, but I need to put more pieces together before I work it out btw

You've only mentioned argument from belief and offered non sequitur

If you're going to dispute an accolade, formulate why its incongruous


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## bitethedust (Oct 3, 2017)

It makes sense that Kirei would be able to beat or at least match a haxless Servant (that's what average NP seems to imply for all the human characters mentioned there since they all rely on outmuscling the other guy/have no tricks to deal with hax themselves other than Aoko).

As for Kotomine beating Ciel? It seems unlikely given her regen for starters.


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

1.Ciel is hyped to able to fight Servants defensevely. On a later ocasion she was hyped to be able to match servants on equal grounds.
2. Ciel is able to fight DA's .beings that are superior to servants directly.
3. She is stated to be above Kotomine normally.
Now, what the hell did Kotomine do so special in the fight against Kiritsugu that would allow him to surprass Ciel in a fight?. I didn't see anything that special from that fight. Nasu's claim doesen't have any backing to it feat-wise.

Ciel also has supperior equipment. Black Barrel is a conceptual weapon that could inflict death on beings that don't have the concept of death.
With the holy seventh scritpure she is hyped to be able to overcome Caster.
Her skill with the black keys is good enough to  hit Arcueid and send her flying through a park. She has spells inscribed on her black keys with serveral effects that should make her more versatile than Kotomine.
Her magic is strong enough for her to surprass an  A rank maugs.
Hell, she even has Mystic Eyes and by OBD terms she should be able to mind fuck Kotomine and be done with it.
Not to mention that she spends her time constantly fighting strong opponents in Melty Blood like Nanaya , Roa, Arcueid and so on. She even fought Archtype Earth at one point. So i would say her battle experience is better than his.

What's Kotomine best showings ? Beating up Kiritsugu for a while before being shredded by Origin bullets and keeping up with true Assasin. I just don't see them being comparable in strenght.


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## Qinglong (Oct 3, 2017)

There is really no issue with Zero Kotomine juicing on Command Spells beating Bazett, you're really underestimating the boost they give, especially the amount he'd have to use to get to that point. Now if it was FSN Kirei you'd have a point.

Dead apostles are not superior to Servants. Hell a half dead Shiki can kill dead apostles. Once again, you're thinking of DAAs, which Ciel can't fight directly.

EDIT: Meant Ciel not Bazett


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

We were talking about Ciel vs Kotomine though... What does Bazet have to do with this ?


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## Qinglong (Oct 3, 2017)

Correction, meant Ciel, typing on discord same time as here


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

Well, whatever, i don't see that happening  especially if Ciel gets her conceptual weapons ...


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## Qinglong (Oct 3, 2017)

those aren't standard equipment

well the keys are but the others aren't counted as her base last I checked


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

Well yeah, i said that i don't see Kotomine beating her  at 100% + all her equipment. Against standard Ciel , Kotomine could beat her.


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## Sablés (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> 2. Ciel is able to fight DA's .beings that are superior to servants directly.



Lolwut


Averange servants would rival or beat most DAAs. Its only like the top 5 DAAs where there's a gap in their favor


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## Qinglong (Oct 3, 2017)

The top 10 would beat most servants


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

DAAs have some fuck all broken abilities. I dont doubt that Kirei could beat regular Ciel with all his command seal juice, but against Powered Ciel with the Seventh Scripture he doesnt really have much that would give him a chance.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> 1.Ciel is hyped to able to fight Servants defensevely.



No shit?

It's like I posted it or something



> On a later ocasion she was hyped to be able to match servants on equal grounds.



When?

And relevance?

Make connections, don't just rattle off shit like it matters on their own



> 2. Ciel is able to fight DA's .beings that are superior to servants directly.



Where was this said?



> 3. She is stated to be above Kotomine normally.



Where was this said?

Fucking cite your sources 



> Now, what the hell did Kotomine do so special in the fight against Kiritsugu that would allow him to surprass Ciel in a fight?. I didn't see anything that special from that fight. Nasu's claim doesen't have any backing to it feat-wise.



An accolade doesn't need feats

They give context to feats

You've failed so far to make connections that actually demonstrate Nasu's word's an incongruity sans unsubstantiated claims with no citation

And even those may very well have context omitted you forgot



> Ciel also has supperior equipment.



Apparently not enough to give her the win over Kotomine with 10 command seals



> Black Barrel is a conceptual weapon that could inflict death on beings that don't have the concept of death.
> With the holy seventh scritpure she is hyped to be able to overcome Caster.



I wonder, are these even standard for her?



> Her skill with the black keys is good enough to  hit Arcueid and send her flying through a park.



Guess that means Kirei can do the same

Do any of you assholes know what accolades are for?



> She has spells inscribed on her black keys with serveral effects that should make her more versatile than Kotomine.



Versatile is worthless and "should" lacks substance



> Her magic is strong enough for her to surprass an  A rank maugs.



Because being a strong magus is the mark of a strong combatant

Because Aoko and Shirou have something to say about that



> Hell, she even has Mystic Eyes and by OBD terms she should be able to mind fuck Kotomine and be done with it.



Another should, more lack of substance



> Not to mention that she spends her time constantly fighting strong opponents in Melty Blood like Nanaya , Roa, Arcueid and so on. She even fought Archtype Earth at one point. So i would say her battle experience is better than his.



You're not really getting what an accolade is, nor are you providing information that actually demonstrates incongruity with the statement by rattling all this shit off



> What's Kotomine best showings ? Beating up Kiritsugu for a while before being shredded by Origin bullets and keeping up with true Assasin. I just don't see them being comparable in strenght.



Learn what accolades are and how we use them



bitethedust said:


> As for Kotomine beating Ciel? It seems unlikely given her regen for starters.



Beat doesn't mean "kill"


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

Ciel woukd kick kotomine's ass because she fucking cute

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Kirei comes from the same group as Ciel, The Executors. its not surprising that with a huge boost he could beat her, shes only in the group on account of her regen, which says alot about what the other members have. She isnt known for her raw power or skill, she just cant die so they make use of her.

Powered Ciel basically takes a hot shit on all that, with seventh scripture being crazy strong with her modifications and along with Roa's magecraft and her self hypnosis boosting her above her normal levels. Thats not standard for her at all and she doesnt even have access to Black Barrel so i dont know why anyone would mention it.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Ciel woukd kick kotomine's ass because she fucking cute



But she's not a corpse Kurou

The exact opposite in fact

Reactions: Funny 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Shes basically the walking dead with her mental state and half dead body thanks to roa


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Powered Ciel basically takes a hot shit on all that, with seventh scripture being crazy strong with her modifications and along with Roa's magecraft and her self hypnosis boosting her above her normal levels.



Would Nasu have been considering Ciel with these things in his quote about her fighting defensively?

And how's Roa compare to the DAA, or at least the ones that can fight Servants?



> Thats not standard for her at all and she doesnt even have access to Black Barrel so i dont know why anyone would mention it.



Dunno

Not like Nasu specified it being a thing in her vs Servants scenario

If he is including it, the thing sounds kind of underwhelming


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Shes basically the walking dead with her mental state and half dead body thanks to roa



Ah

Just thought she was some kind of absurdly overpowered regenerator

If she's classed as an actual half dead body, this makes much more sense then


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> No shit?
> 
> It's like I posted it or something


You're wasting both our times with this shit...


ChaosTheory123 said:


> When?


In one of the interviews , i don't have it on me currently.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And relevance?


The relavance is that while Ciel is able to match servants on equal grounds, Kotomine can hardly keep up with them. I'm comparing the two.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Make connections, don't just rattle off shit like it matters on their own


Well, i thought someone with mental capabilites like your would be able to deduce what i'm saying.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Where was this said?


In an interview. I'm gonna post them eventualy + it gets showed in Melty Blood that she can fight Roa who's pretty much equivalent to a DA.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> An accolade doesn't need feats
> 
> They give context to feats
> 
> ...


That's the thing. Context to what feat of Kotomine's  exactly ? Cause Nasu can wake up tomorow and state that Avenger on his best day can beat Gillgamesh. But i guess it's okay cause it's an accolade.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Apparently not enough to give her the win over Kotomine with 10 command seals


Riiiight.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Guess that means Kirei can do the same
> 
> Do any of you assholes know what accolades are for?


Not with what he showed he can't.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Versatile is worthless and "should" lacks substance


Worthless my ass. You always do this shit. Everything matters in combat especially when the combatants are close in overall strenght.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Because being a strong magus is the mark of a strong combatant
> 
> Because Aoko and Shirou have something to say about that


No, but it helps. Just another thing she is better at than Kotomine.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Another should, more lack of substance


Ok, then how is this. Kotomine has shown  0 resistance to mind fuck. Therefore Ciel uses her Mystic eyes and mind-fucks him. GG


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Learn what accolades are and how we use them


I'm good, thank you.


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> But she's not a corpse Kurou
> 
> The exact opposite in fact




She's dead on the inside

If its broken why fix it amirite

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Would Nasu have been considering Ciel with these things in his quote about her fighting defensively?
> 
> And how's Roa compare to the DAA, or at least the ones that can fight Servants?


No, Powered Ciel is her going all out and isnt a standard for her at all. Its her at her most powerful and under self hypnosis to not hold back and use shit she wouldnt normally use like Roa's magecraft.

Roa is some match for Arcueid IIRC. 




ChaosTheory123 said:


> Dunno
> 
> Not like Nasu specified it being a thing in her vs Servants scenario
> 
> If he is including it, the thing sounds kind of underwhelming


It basically forces death on things with no concept of it, so any schmuck can kill gods like ORT and other Types. Its Mystic Eyes of Death Perception on super steroids.


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

Ciel isnt only in because of her fucking regen she was just being modest


She's a fucking monster


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Apparently Prime Roa beat Altrouge in a battle so hes actually really strong considering she own Primate Murder.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Ciel isnt only in because of her fucking regen she was just being modest
> 
> 
> She's a fucking monster


Her superiors kick her out when she loses her connection to Roa since she loses her regen. Thats not being modest


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

He best her before she got primate murder and Altrouge is weak as shit


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## John Wayne (Oct 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> Ciel isnt only in because of her fucking regen she was just being modest
> 
> 
> She's a fucking monster



No it's pretty much implied everyone else is just that ridiculous.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> He best her before she got primate murder and Altrouge is weak as shit


she was considered as a container for Crimson Moon. Altrouge is not that weak, Roa is just stupidly strong when hes at his peak.


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## Kurou (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Her superiors kick her out when she loses her connection to Roa since she loses her regen. Thats not being modest




....


Those arent the same groups. Those are different subdivisions. The one she was in kicked her out.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Kurou said:


> ....
> 
> 
> Those arent the same groups. Those are different subdivisions. The one she was in kicked her out.


Okay yea i was a bit confused, its been a while lol. Shes kicked out of the burial agency, which are the best executors so she is naturally above Kirei.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> You're wasting both our times with this shit...



Nah

You're only wasting mine and yours is a casualty



> In one of the interviews , i don't have it on me currently.



Where would it be then?



> The relavance is that while Ciel is able to match servants on equal grounds, Kotomine can hardly keep up with them. I'm comparing the two.



...

Man, I totally remember that time 10 command seals Kotomine during the 4th HGW fought any servants to compare himself with

Executioners in general can fight Servants, Kotomine was once an Executioner

EDIT - My bad here

Think I confused Burial Agency and Executioner



			
				Fate/Complete Material 3 said:
			
		

> Members of the Burial Agency are able to fight Servants even with a human body.



The only times in Fate he had to face servants was vs a high/top tier like Lancer, Caster who's the worst match up for any human, and True Assassin who he could match in speed and strength to an extent

And this was well out of his prime



> Well, i thought someone with mental capabilites like your would be able to deduce what i'm saying.



Dots have to actually exist on the page for them to be connected

Amazingly, even someone like me needs to know shit exists to work with it



> In an interview. I'm gonna post them eventualy + it gets showed in Melty Blood that she can fight Roa who's pretty much equivalent to a DA.



That's fair then

Take your time



> That's the thing. Context to what feat of Kotomine's  exactly ?



Not Kotomine's, Ciel's

Kotomine by lack of contradiction gets raised up to whatever Ciel can produce in the first place by the comparison


> Cause Nasu can wake up tomorow and state that Avenger on his best day can beat Gillgamesh. But i guess it's okay cause it's an accolade.



And the straw men are cute, but I'm kind of incredulous you're having this kind of difficulty understanding the simple "accolades that aren't contradicted are power scaling fodder"

They're power levels, but with words

It doesn't take me to get this, yet why am I the only one ever making any real connections?



> Not with what he showed he can't.



And what connects the shit you're saying he doesn't compare to to make this claim exactly?

Without incongruity, you lack basis



> Worthless my ass. You always do this shit.



And I'm typically on target with my word functioning as gospel for the rest of you clowns to put through a meat grinder until its unrecognizable *shrugs*

If you want to bitch, you're just giving me shit to laugh at



> Everything matters in combat especially when the combatants are close in overall strenght.



Which would be nice, except we're told the relevance is wanting vs 10 command seal 4th Grail War Kotomine



> No, but it helps. Just another thing she is better at than Kotomine.



And yet we're told 10 command seal Kotomine is otherwise beyond her

Go figure



> Ok, then how is this. Kotomine has shown  0 resistance to mind fuck. Therefore Ciel uses her Mystic eyes and mind-fucks him. GG



Oddly, unless Nasu just flat up forgot to consider it, which we can't substantiate?

It wouldn't play any factor into the fight apparently

Go figure



> I'm good, thank you.



Nah

But that's ok, I'm here to hold everyone's hand

Like always


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

I cant find the interview cause im too lazy today, but afaik there was one where it was said Ciel could overcome Caster by using the Seventh Scripture and some other shit from the church.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> No, Powered Ciel is her going all out and isnt a standard for her at all. Its her at her most powerful and under self hypnosis to not hold back and use shit she wouldnt normally use like Roa's magecraft.



Gotcha

Only read the Tsukihime manga, so I know fuck all about the actual canon of that side of Nasu



> Roa is some match for Arcueid IIRC.



Is he?

Even weakened to shit by Shiki she still fucked him over with Marble Phantasm, only failing to off him because she didn't include his ankle and the floor or some shit?



> It basically forces death on things with no concept of it, so any schmuck can kill gods like ORT and other Types. Its Mystic Eyes of Death Perception on super steroids.



That the thing from what I've heard about Angel Notes?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Apparently Prime Roa beat Altrouge in a battle so hes actually really strong considering she own Primate Murder.



How powerful is Altrouge?

Owning Primate Murder/Fou doesn't necessarily make you stronger than it, unless there's reason to believe they should be



Kurou said:


> He best her before she got primate murder and Altrouge is weak as shit



Oh?



OneSimpleAnime said:


> I cant find the interview cause im too lazy today, but afaik there was one where it was said Ciel could overcome Caster by using the Seventh Scripture and some other shit from the church.



Gotcha

Take your time

Thread's not going anywhere and I'm just bumping it as I get some free time to post shit


----------



## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Nah
> 
> You're only wasting mine and yours is a casualty


Whichever way you want to play it , both our time is getting wasted. So yeah.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> The only times in Fate he had to face servants was vs a high/top tier like Lancer, Caster who's the worst match up for any human, and True Assassin who he could match in speed and strength to an extent


Yeah, so he never showed any impresive shit against servants. My point exactly.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And this was well out of his prime


Can you quantify this ?


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And the straw men are cute, but I'm kind of incredulous you're having this kind of difficulty understanding the simple "accolades that aren't contradicted are power scaling fodder"


It's not that i'm not getting it... I just find it hard to beleive because the concrete feats Kotomine showed aren't really enough for me to believe he would be at that level. That's all.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And I'm typically on target with my word functioning as gospel for the rest of you clowns to put through a meat grinder until its unrecognizable *shrugs*


And we can't thnak you enough for that.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> If you want to bitch, you're just giving me shit to laugh at


I'm not bitching, was just pointing it out.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And what connects the shit you're saying he doesn't compare to to make this claim exactly?
> 
> Without incongruity, you lack basis


He simply hasn't showed anything on that level and the shit that  Ciel does/has on screen is generaly more impressive.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And yet we're told 10 command seal Kotomine is otherwise beyond her
> 
> Go figure


We are told a lot of things by Nasu. A master of contradictions and retconns. You'll excuse me if i'm not in any hurry to eat up anything he says.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Oddly, unless Nasu just flat up forgot to consider it, which we can't substantiate?
> 
> It wouldn't play any factor into the fight apparently


Of course not, not when it doesn't jive with whatever you're trying to calim/prove/push.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> But that's ok, I'm here to hold everyone's hand


I'm sure you think so.

Anyway just to be clear, i'm only talking about Full Powered Ciel here. I have no problem with Kotomine being > Standard Ciel.


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## John Wayne (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How powerful is Altrouge?
> 
> Owning Primate Murder/Fou doesn't necessarily make you stronger than it, unless there's reason to believe they should be



Vaguely really powerful, can potentially wipe humanity through PM.


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## Kazu (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> I cant find the interview cause im too lazy today, but afaik there was one where it was said Ciel could overcome Caster by using the Seventh Scripture and some other shit from the church.



*Q: If Caster and Ciel went full out on magic and fought each other, who would win?*
A: That'd be Caster. A lot's been said, but see, she's a witch from the divine era, something that shouldn't be in the present. If it was a competition against human opponents, then Caster would present the most horrifying and greatest results among the HF 5 Servants..... Though, if Ciel got her hands on what lies within the deepest parts of the Evocationary area of the Association and sends the Seventh Scripture in her, things will be different.

At most, we can say that Ciel can get the scripture, but AFAIK even in powered modo she doesn't the "Association" stuff.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Whichever way you want to play it , both our time is getting wasted. So yeah.



Yes, but mine's the only IMPORTANT time being wasted 

I'm not sure if I can be any more direct in how not seriously I'm taking this, but I can try if this ends up falling flat *shrugs*



> Yeah, so he never showed any impresive shit against servants. My point exactly.



That's not a point because we're discussing an incarnation of Kirei this isn't contradicted for

Where he has all 10 command seals

And even then?

Ignoring the stupidity of calling the Assassin class weak?

He keeps pace with True Assassin and is strong enough to parry and block projectiles thrown by a master of projectiles that possesses a B in strength

On top of, IIRC, overwhelming True Assassin's forward momentum with thrown Black Keys



> Can you quantify this ?



I need to for the purpose of this accolade?



> It's not that i'm not getting it... I just find it hard to beleive because the concrete feats Kotomine showed aren't really enough for me to believe he would be at that level. That's all.



Belief isn't an argument

So why bother bringing it up?



> And we can't thnak you enough for that.



I accept all forms of cash donation as gratuity



> I'm not bitching, was just pointing it out.



If you say so 



> He simply hasn't showed anything on that level and the shit that  Ciel does/has on screen is generaly more impressive.



He also hasn't done anything on screen that is incongruous with the claim for comparison's sake

Do I need to keep pulling out fucking Yamcha whenever fuckers can't understand what an accolade is supposed to do?

His feats objectively suck, the best he ever did on panel was blow up a section of wall with a kamehameha in the 22nd Budokai

Everything he has going for him is tied to power levels/accolades from defeating a Saibaman meaning anything (their feats are garbage, they just happen to be as powerful as Raditz, who's stronger than the fucker with actual feats in Piccolo) to being compared to Nappa/Vegeta Fight Goku by Android 20.



> We are told a lot of things by Nasu. A master of contradictions and retconns. You'll excuse me if i'm not in any hurry to eat up anything he says.



And neither am I

I'm just not writing the shit off without an actual incongruity making it a circle of logic



> Of course not, not when it doesn't jive with whatever you're trying to calim/prove/push.



And what reason do I have to believe it would actually matter then?  Does regular Ciel resort to this shit?

If so, Nasu apparently didn't care

If not, the tangent is pointless to discuss



> I'm sure you think so.



I'm sure of one thing and one alone

This is a comedy and I'm the audience and producer


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

John Wayne said:


> Vaguely really powerful, can potentially wipe humanity through PM.



That is vague and unhelpful


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## John Wayne (Oct 3, 2017)

Welcome to this character that hasn't appeared in any media and is only mentioned.


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Yes, but mine's the only IMPORTANT time being wasted


I love how you think your time is more precious than other's people time. Your arrogance is at grand levels


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I'm not sure if I can be any more direct in how not seriously I'm taking this, but I can try if this ends up falling flat *shrugs*


Whatever floats your boat.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> That's not a point because we're discussing an incarnation of Kirei this isn't contradicted for
> 
> Where he has all 10 command seals


But that's the problem. There is absolutely nothing known about him. A semblance of a feat would nice. Anything at all. We don't have anything , that's why i'm not on board with this. From my experience on this forum , people usually wait for at least a showing before accepting such a claim.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Ignoring the stupidity of calling the Assassin class weak?


Now, who's using cute strawmen ? I never called the Assasin class weak.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> He keeps pace with True Assassin and is strong enough to parry and block projectiles thrown by a master of projectiles that possesses a B in strength
> 
> On top of, IIRC, overwhelming True Assassin's forward momentum with thrown Black Keys


Yes but compared to Ciel matching Arcueid and sending her flying...that's not really saying much.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I need to for the purpose of this accolade


Well, you brought up so why not ?


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I accept all forms of cash donation as gratuity


Send me your account.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Everything he has going for him is tied to power levels/accolades from defeating a Saibaman


Yes, something he actually did as opposed to Kotomine who was never shown doing anything in his 10 CS state. WIth Yamcha there is an actuall starting point. With Kotomine, there's no such thing.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Belief isn't an argument
> 
> So why bother bringing it up?


Because this shit isn't an exact science ? Of course beleif and subjectivity is gonna affect your reasoning in some way. Meaninfull ammount or otherwise.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And neither am I
> 
> I'm just not writing the shit off without an actual incongruity making it a circle of logic


No, you're hurrying up to accept something that hardly has any substance to it and you're also hurrying up to dismiss anything i say while admiting you know just about jack-shit about Tsukihime and its characters.
If i didn't have a good ammount of respect for you, i would have just walked away from this right at this point


ChaosTheory123 said:


> And what reason do I have to believe it would actually matter then? Does regular Ciel resort to this shit?


Yes she does. That's how she managed o enroll in Shiki's school, by mind-fucking everyone there.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> If so, Nasu apparently didn't care


Really ? So we are ignoring a power a character has shown in the OB fucking D because Nasu didn't mention it ?

And why the hell are we arguing again ? I was talking about full power Ciel while you were talking about regular Ciel. Two different scenarios


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Gotcha
> 
> Only read the Tsukihime manga, so I know fuck all about the actual canon of that side of Nasu


Powered Ciel doesnt appear till Melty Blood AA, which is like 5 years old i think. So a lot of older stuff doesnt take her into consideration




ChaosTheory123 said:


> That the thing from what I've heard about Angel Notes?


Yes it is from Notes.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> I love how you think your time is more precious than other's people time. Your arrogance is at grand levels



...

Was I actually being subtle?

I'm not sure how you took that as anything but a joke 



> But that's the problem. There is absolutely nothing known about him. A semblance of a feat would nice. Anything at all. We don't have anything , that's why i'm not on board with this. From my experience on this forum , people usually wait for at least a showing before accepting such a claim.



We know he can defeat Ciel at his peak in the 4th Grail War per Nasu's uncontradicted word

I care not for your goal posts, beliefs, or tiering

I'm putting this puzzle together, I don't particularly care what piece goes where

Just give me an actual reason a particular piece doesn't fit



> Now, who's using cute strawmen ? I never called the Assasin class weak.



Apologies, was predicting stock response



> Yes but compared to Ciel matching Arcueid and sending her flying...that's not really saying much.



As I've said, I don't know Tsukihime that well

But wasn't Arcueid also hilariously weakened by Shiki?

On top of the whole function of her power being something like "yours + a tiny bit more"?



> Well, you brought up so why not ?



I brought it up to make it clear the Kotomine in this thread isn't the Kotomine you're trying to draw comparisons to

Whatever happened to 5th War Kotomine reflects nothing upon 4th War with 10 Command Seals



> Send me your account.



Heh



> Yes, something he actually did as opposed to Kotomine who was never shown doing anything in his 10 CS state. WIth Yamcha there is an actuall starting point. With Kotomine, there's no such thing.



But the things he did are predicated on accolades making them actually impressive

Without power levels/accolades, what he did amounts to nothing

Which brings us back to... if the accolades aren't contradicted by incongruity, they're viable to use


> Because this shit isn't an exact science ? Of course beleif and subjectivity is gonna affect your reasoning in some way. Meaninfull ammount or otherwise.



Not in particular

Belief as an argument alone, as you're putting forth, has no place in this arena as there's no established basis for its utilization in past precedent in the manner you're trying



> No, you're hurrying up to accept something that hardly has any substance to it and you're also hurrying up to dismiss anything i say while admiting you know just about jack-shit about Tsukihime and its characters.



I only need one statement with no contradiction to establish hierarchy

You've failed to actually establish any contradictions and offer purely incredulity and comparisons to an incarnation of Kotomine not discussed in Nasu's quote

Not my fault you're having problems here



> Yes she does. That's how she managed o enroll in Shiki's school, by mind-fucking everyone there.



Guess it's not a factor in Nasu's mind then *shrugs*

Good to know



> Really ? So we are ignoring a power a character has shown in the OB fucking D because Nasu didn't mention it ?



We're not ignoring it, we just have to conclude it holds no relevance because it wasn't considered as a factor if the fight is to play out as Nasu suggested

We're not playing with a particularly difficult puzzle here

All I'm asking is you find pieces that function as actual contradiction, not a bunch of disjointed pieces from an unrelated picture *shrugs*


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Powered Ciel doesnt appear till Melty Blood AA, which is like 5 years old i think. So a lot of older stuff doesnt take her into consideration



Works for me then



> Yes it is from Notes.



Gotcha


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Was I actually being subtle?
> 
> I'm not sure how you took that as anything but a joke


Sorry , you can't ever  know on this forum.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> We know he can defeat Ciel at his peak in the 4th Grail War per Nasu's uncontradicted word


Ok, first of all , as of my experince on this site, one needs more than a statement , contradicted or otherwise to accept something like that especially when the character he is being put above has better showings and multiple versions.
Which brings me to my second problem. Nasu said it in a really general way. He said that Kirei would beat Ciel, he didn't specify that he would beat Ciel with all of that shit she can have acces too. Weapons, strenghtening magic etc...


ChaosTheory123 said:


> But wasn't Arcueid also hilariously weakened by Shiki?


The same Arc , the one at 30% percent can moon drop and is stated by Nasu himself to be able to fend off more than one servants.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> On top of the whole function of her power being something like "yours + a tiny bit more"?


I'm not really sure here. I think this kicks in when her opponent is actually a  threat to her. The Planet helps her a little but don't quote me on this .


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I brought it up to make it clear the Kotomine in this thread isn't the Kotomine you're trying to draw comparisons to
> 
> Whatever happened to 5th War Kotomine reflects nothing upon 4th War with 10 Command Seals


I get that but this argument is kind of moot when we don't know how much a difference there is between the two versions. I mean is CS Kotomine's  a hundred compared ot FSN Kotomine's ten ?  Or is it just twenty compared to ten ?


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Belief as an argument alone, as you're putting forth, has no place in this arena as there's no established basis for its utilization in past precedent in the manner you're trying


Oh come on.. don't give me that. This whole ting stemed from my belief but i actuall try to discuss things here with whatever information i got on hand. 


ChaosTheory123 said:


> I only need one statement with no contradiction to establish hierarchy


And i'm on the other side of the coin. You only need a statmement? That's fine . I need a little more.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> You've failed to actually establish any contradictions and offer purely incredulity and comparisons to an incarnation of Kotomine not discussed in Nasu's quote


Yes because the version of Kotomine that  Nasu was discussing is featless. If he actually showed any feats i would have disccused him, but alas that's not the case.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> Guess it's not a factor in Nasu's mind then *shrugs*
> 
> Good to know


Still it doesen't invalidate her abilitiy and Kotomine's lack of resistance to this ability.


ChaosTheory123 said:


> We're not ignoring it, we just have to conclude it holds no relevance because it wasn't considered as a factor if the fight is to play out as Nasu suggested


I'm sorry but this is not an argument. He didn't mention other things like how would Kotomine beat her or how would he deal with the Seventh Scripture or what kind of powers he gets from the CS.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Sorry , you can't ever  know on this forum.



I'm an asshole, not arrogant

The day I demonstrate any real arrogance or pride for this stupid bullshit is the day I need to die



> Ok, first of all , as of my experince on this site, one needs more than a statement , contradicted or otherwise to accept something like that especially when the character he is being put above has better showings and multiple versions.



Dragon Ball pretty much exists in contradiction to your assertion



> Which brings me to my second problem. Nasu said it in a really general way. He said that Kirei would beat Ciel, he didn't specify that he would beat Ciel with all of that shit she can have acces too. Weapons, strenghtening magic etc...



There were no caveats or addendum mentioned in the quote

Why should I assume anything but when the question is a straight forward "who would win"?



> The same Arc , the one at 30% percent can moon drop and is stated by Nasu himself to be able to fend off more than one servants.



Wasn't that vs some fucker called Wallachia?

How powerful is Wallachia? 

This kind of seems relevant



			
				Comptiq 2006-09 issue - Fate Dojo Q & A said:
			
		

> *Q: Who is stronger, Gilgamesh or Arcueid (30%)? While Arcueid has the strength of 4 Servants, I remember there being a scene in hollow implying that Gil was the equivalent of 5 Servants + a.*
> 
> A. In the definition of Arcueid's strength, there's this thing where "her output changes according to her opponent". As an absolute order taken from her backup, the planet, she is allowed only an output a little stronger than her opponent. And. Single entity abilities of Arc and Servants are roughly on the same level
> 
> ...





> I'm not really sure here. I think this kicks in when her opponent is actually a  threat to her. The Planet helps her a little but don't quote me on this .



Is what I quoted above the only shit on the mechanics?



> I get that but this argument is kind of moot when we don't know how much a difference there is between the two versions. I mean is CS Kotomine's  a hundred compared ot FSN Kotomine's ten ?  Or is it just twenty compared to ten ?



You don't need to know, you just need to know a difference exists to separate them for the comparison to not possess contradiction



> Oh come on.. don't give me that. This whole ting stemed from my belief but i actuall try to discuss things here with whatever information i got on hand.



But you're not connecting that information together in a manner that actually demonstrates an incongruity

A statement lacking incongruity can only fit into the picture



> And i'm on the other side of the coin. You only need a statmement? That's fine . I need a little more.



The "I" wasn't me specifically

Its for the process of putting together an actual picture

Anything more and your fucking over many a bloated franchise like Pokemon with a cast so large you need every scrap of information to paint any sort of picture



> Yes because the version of Kotomine that  Nasu was discussing is featless.



So are Saibamen

So is Yamcha by virtue of only having fighting Saibamen as his best feat



> If he actually showed any feats i would have disccused him, but alas that's not the case.



Doesn't need feats, has power levels/accolades

Or else Yamcha is just wall level and Saibamen are featless in general

Put the goal posts down, you're only going to break your back trying to move them



> Still it doesen't invalidate her abilitiy and Kotomine's lack of resistance to this ability.



Don't recall invalidating her power

Just that apparently it doesn't factor into a fight with Kotomine, thus he apparently has the means to deal with it or Ciel can't use it properly in combat *shrugs*

Or a multitude of other reasons related to the fact it just won't come up in the hypothetical fight



> I'm sorry but this is not an argument. He didn't mention other things like how would Kotomine beat her or how would he deal with the Seventh Scripture or what kind of powers he gets from the CS.



The hell is the Seventh Scripture?

And 10 Command Seals was pretty much flat out stated to be able to hurt servants

It would functionally let him fight them as Francis Drake did as a human using her Holy Grail basically

Just more about raw magic power and less wishing for the mundane to be abnormal.


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## TYPE-Rey (Oct 3, 2017)

Gotta get some sleep.I'm gonna get back at this tomorow if that's ok.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Oct 3, 2017)

Seventh Scripture is a weapon from the church, it destroys peoples souls when it hits them and is super effective on undead shit.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Oct 3, 2017)

reyatsuguy said:


> Gotta get some sleep.I'm gonna get back at this tomorow if that's ok.



Take your time *shrugs*

Like I said, not like the thread's going anywhere and I'll be bumping it to bring up connections from the franchise as I make time to do so


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## Qinglong (Oct 3, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> Take your time *shrugs*
> 
> Like I said, not like the thread's going anywhere and I'll be bumping it to bring up connections from the franchise as I make time to do so



Okay there's way too many quote chains going on for me to quote the correct one so I'm just going to quote this post instead since I just came from watching Ninjago and It back to back

Roa by the time of Tsukihime had massively degraded compared to his prime and hadn't even recovered the usage of his magecraft when he's killed in pretty much every route, at best he was about the level of a above average Dead Apostle since he should still be > Satsuki literally waking up since he was also her parent vampire


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## Crimson King (Oct 3, 2017)

She's also op as fuck, instantly turning into a Dead Apostle and getting a Reality Marble.


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## Qinglong (Oct 4, 2017)

Crimson King said:


> She's also op as fuck, instantly turning into a Dead Apostle and getting a Reality Marble.



hard to be op when you don't exist


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## Crimson King (Oct 4, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> hard to be op when you don't exist


Who are we talking about again?

Must be no one important if they don't have a route.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Qinglong (Oct 4, 2017)

ChaosTheory123 said:


> How powerful is Altrouge?
> 
> Owning Primate Murder/Fou doesn't necessarily make you stronger than it, unless there's reason to believe they should be



Roughly as powerful as Arcueid (but less stable) considering their shared heritage, she is stated to be a potential successor to Crimson Moon like Arcueid is and the fact she stole her hair during a fight in the past

weaker than Prime Roa (tried to fight him and lost)

Gransurg BlackMore and Merem Solomon, two fellow DAAs don't believe they can defeat her without teaming up against her; although exactly where they sit is still up in the air, but either should be stronger than "average" servant seeing as Blackmore at minimum is considered "top class" Ancestor of the actual vampire ones (although Merem still believes they'd have to mutually destroy themselves to win if they fought alone If I remember right)

that's all we know for certain IIRC


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## Kurou (Oct 4, 2017)

Dont remembwr where but im pretty sure it was said she wouldnt even be top 10 DAA without primate murder



But fuck it my memories been faulty recently anyway so meh


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## Sablés (Oct 4, 2017)

Qinglong said:


> Gransurg BlackMore and Merem Solomon, two fellow DAAs don't believe they can defeat her without teaming up against her


pretty sure this included her bodyguards, not just her.


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## Kurou (Oct 4, 2017)

Yea

Merem thinks he at most could take out a body guard but with Gransurg he can take her and her group


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