# Kishimoto elected best manga artist : Violent controversy about a japanese ranking



## Cobblepot (Sep 24, 2011)

_2ch is violently debating a putative ranking of mangaka by drawing ability, with the top spot proving particularly incendiary?

The ranking, judged by ?design ability, perspective correctness, consistency, anatomical correctness, shading, etc?:_



> *S rank:*
> 
> Masashi Kishimoto (Naruto)
> Sadamoto Yoshiyuki (Neon Genesis Evangelion)
> ...



_2ch is incensed that anyone would esteem Kishimoto so highly:_


> ?If Kishimoto isn?t E rank it?s just some fanboy ranking! He can?t even do proper perspective!?
> 
> ?He is likely rated so highly because of his interesting composition. People were saying it was because it is so cinematic??
> 
> ...



*Sources: 2channel, sankakucomplex*


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## Hatifnatten (Sep 24, 2011)

this thing again =/



> Sources: *2channel*


not really.


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## Kronin (Sep 24, 2011)

I think simply meaningless post a ranking of preference without specifying precisely what are the criteria that lead to that assessment. Sankakucomplex should have explained that rather than simply post the ranking. Finally, it is not even clear who voted (a jury, a popular vote, or who else?)


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

It's fucking 2ch

The only field of expertise of 2ch is the sexual life of animu voice actresses


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## Gain (Sep 24, 2011)

why is toriko so low?


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## Gain (Sep 24, 2011)

Igarashi Daisuke (S Rank)

Well, that's pretty cool I guess


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 24, 2011)

STOP POSTING IT EVERYWHERE!

It's fucking Sankaku Complex. Jesus.


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## Cobblepot (Sep 24, 2011)

Sorry, guys... I didn't know the bad reputation of this site. It's indeed bullshit... =/

You can delete this thread, mods.


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

AYA HIRANO : HER FORBIDDEN RELATIONSHIP WITH HER HAMSTER

THE SCANDAL OF AYA HIRANO'S HEMORROIDS

TOP 17 MOE MOE UGUGUGU CHARACTERS

SEXY NANASE UKIKIYAMA ERO ERO FIGURE

AYA HIRANO'S CAREER IS FINISHED: SHE LOST HER VIRGINITY AT AGE 24

Sankaku Complex


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## ashher (Sep 24, 2011)

Interesting. This list sort of overcompensated for the usual undermining of kishimoto's art.


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## p-lou (Sep 24, 2011)

igarashi is at the top

who cares about the rest?


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Sep 24, 2011)

Not quite Snakaku trolling - It was posted here a while ago actually. . . . 

​


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## Monna (Sep 24, 2011)

Hirohiko Araki should have been in S.


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## Gnome (Sep 24, 2011)

In what way is this "controversy" or "violent"?


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## noobthemusical (Sep 24, 2011)

Something like this happens every month.

Also this is probably a troll list.


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Oh shit I didn't notice the Yotsuba guy was on the same tier as Oda and Araki hahahaha


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## Golden Witch (Sep 24, 2011)

Hows this Controversy?

It's a List mady by People who have no Idea what a true good Manga Artist is.
IF this is serious.

Even less controversal if its just a Troll List.

In anyway absolutely horrible Ranking that shouldn't be taken care seriously at all cause its made by Douchebags.


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## Mist Puppet (Sep 24, 2011)

Aldric said:


> Oh shit I didn't notice the Yotsuba guy was on the same tier as Oda and Araki hahahaha



Azuma is just that much of a boss


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Yotsuba is a fun little manga but it's one of the most unremarkable looking things I've ever read


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## Hatifnatten (Sep 24, 2011)

Fenix Down said:


> Not quite Snakaku trolling - It was posted here a while ago actually. . . .
> 
> ​


By the simple fact that not a single soul agrees with this obviously trying to be provocative list, both Japan (where it seems like an entire country commented on it) and overseas, it's fairly easy to deduct that this is a simple trolling.
Or it's compiled with "10 people votes - leader" logic.


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## Mist Puppet (Sep 24, 2011)

Aldric said:


> Yotsuba is a fun little manga but it's one of the most unremarkable looking things I've ever read



Yeah, the art itself is pretty unremarkable, but it has a certain charm to it. For me, anyways.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 24, 2011)

I understand why the japanese would react violently. Truth is always hard to accept .

Besides, if japanese people don't know what makes a true manga artist, I don't think we're supposed to know any better.
I mean Japan is the country of manga. Why would suchs results come out from it ?


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## Mizura (Sep 24, 2011)

lol, I actually think Oh! Great is the best artist, though he tries way too hard with unnecessary fanservice. His story-telling ability sucks though. :\


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 24, 2011)

Yagami1211 said:


> I understand why the japanese would react violently. Truth is always hard to accept .
> 
> Besides, if japanese people don't know what makes a true manga artist, I don't think we're supposed to know any better.
> I mean Japan is the country of manga. Why would suchs results come out from it ?


In what dimension will Kishi be the greatest artist? He isn't the best in any possible category you can come up with.


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## Hatifnatten (Sep 24, 2011)

Putting aside that this is an obvious troll "poll", such rating would be impossible to begin with. How can you judge artist's capabilities by a *manga style* he's using? Maybe he doesn't have much time, sick, or maybe he likes to draw some things simple etc. How would it be fair to just ignore all those factors and shove them all under single judgment?

Almost all mangakas can produce an incredibly detailed and correctly composed picture in color worthy of a gallery presentation, if they spend quality time on it without being rushed or worrying about other panels to draw, text, effects, continuity and so on.

So this is incredibly fucking stupid regardless of how real it is, the one who made it should be ashamed.


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Yagami1211 said:


> I understand why the japanese would react violently. Truth is always hard to accept .
> 
> Besides, if japanese people don't know what makes a true manga artist, I don't think we're supposed to know any better.
> I mean Japan is the country of manga. Why would suchs results come out from it ?



Manga isn't some sort of magical medium that only exists in one country

It's just the japanese word for comic books, anyone who has read a comic book in his life,isn't blind and doesn't have the shittiest tastes in the world can understand Kishimoto is a mediocre artist


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## Kirito (Sep 24, 2011)

its sankaku

who goes to that piece of shit website for the lists anyway


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Mizura said:


> lol, I actually think Oh! Great is the best artist, though he tries way too hard with unnecessary fanservice. His story-telling ability sucks though. :\



He's technically good, he has exceptional lines and complex outfits for a weekly manga as well as great anatomy (especially for his female characters huff huff), on the flipside his composition is extremely confusing  (which added to his terrible dialogues makes his manga such a chore to read) and everyone looks so retardedly pretty and perfect that his character design really isn't anything to write home about

But yeah for the weekly manga artists he's a good candidate

For monthly/irregular series though he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Miura, Inoue, Samura, Hagiwara, Kishiro etc


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## ichigeau (Sep 24, 2011)

1: i dont want to be some kind of *snob* that say he dont deserve it but i just remembered something.

2: making 4 chapter a month is actually alot more pannels and pages than monthly manga that have like only 30 pages, take this in consideration: less time to finalize (thanks to assistant too) more pages production.

3: its just some drawing so who give a shit.
4: enjoy the work/art 




Aldric said:


> For monthly/irregular series though he doesn't hold a candle to the likes of Miura, Inoue, Samura, Hagiwara, Kishiro etc



just like i said, ex kentaro miura work is detailed and all that shit, but he take like 2 years before he finish a chapter *obvious exagerated sarcasm* and he take 5 months of break after only like 4 or 5 chapter thats a fact.

i would like to see him draw 4 chapter a month of 20 pages, every week, every month, every years, he would 
A: draw all day and all night, end in depression and play idol master (well again...)
B: make more simple drawing because its too much work each week


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## LifeMaker (Sep 24, 2011)

yeah that list has to be made to annoy, as i can't see how most of them ended up in the ranks they did


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## Inugami (Sep 24, 2011)

Troll list, impossible to take serious.


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

ichigeau said:


> just like i said, ex kentaro miura work is detailed and all that shit, but he take like 2 years before he finish a chapter *obvious exagerated sarcasm* and he take 5 months of break after only like 4 or 5 chapter thats a fact.
> 
> i would like to see him draw 4 chapter a month of 20 pages, every week, every month, every years, he would
> A: draw all day and all night, end in depression and play idol master (well again...)
> B: make more simple drawing because its too much work each week



Obviously these guys benefit from longer deadlines, but that doesn't mean that the average mangaka with as much time as Miura and Inoue would be able to churn out the same quality

Give three months to Mashima and nothing he draws will come remotely close to the best of Berserk


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## dream (Sep 24, 2011)

Inoue is the best.


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## Mizura (Sep 24, 2011)

Aldric said:


> on the flipside his composition is extremely confusing  (which added to his terrible dialogues makes his manga such a chore to read)


I kind of blame his storytelling rather than his artistic abilities for that. He's always trying to impress so much that he pretty much goes overboard.



> and everyone looks so retardedly pretty and perfect that his character design really isn't anything to write home about


Seriously? Did you miss the likes of this ugly dude and this fat pig? In terms of variety, Bob from Tenjo Tenge was one of the few major black guys in Japanese manga (and damn cool too).

I agree that some other artists are superior to Oh! Great on some aspects, especially realistic facial features and complex shading, but I wouldn't say that Oh! Great's lagging that far behind. Oh! Great draws the best mechanical gears, he draws extremely dynamics poses and angles with extreme ease (the most dynamic I've seen in any manga, and those are Damn hard to draw) and he throws the most variety of different items into his works (all sorts of intact or mutilated animals, mechanical machines ranging from detailed guns to battleships, weird monster designs, mutilated body parts...), which shows his Extreme flexibility as an artist. You can throw just about any genre at him, and he'll likely have no trouble illustrating it: fantasy, historical, sci-fi, sports, horror, ecchi, shoujo, whatever (in fact, his works are often all-in-one...).

(wait, you said Hagiwara? As in, Bastard!? As for Kishiro, it's Battle Angel Alita, right? You seriously consider them having better art? :\ C'mon, we're talking Art here, not story, if there were one artists I'd hope to be able to draw as well as, it'd be Oh! Great, certainly not Hagiwara or Kishiro, unless their art has improved since)

If Oh! Great wasted less time drawing naked girls (which bring down the reader's overall opinion of him, delegating him to "juvenile") and found a partner who could actually Write, he'd be a lot more popular than he is right now...


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## Eisenheim (Sep 24, 2011)

lol SankakuComplex. 

That site is obsess with everything about Aya Hirano.


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## Yagami1211 (Sep 24, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> In what dimension will Kishi be the greatest artist? He isn't the best in any possible category you can come up with.



I was just trolling, anyway. There are people better than the guys on this list.
Where is Tsukasa Hojo ?


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## Cromer (Sep 24, 2011)

You have to be surprised that Igarashi Daisuke is on that list though. He's not very well-known, is he?

And while Kishi shouldn't be S-Rank, he definitely merits a B. He manages to be good at nearly everything without being outstanding or crap in any one thing (in terms of his art). And he does it weekly too. Bringing up Miura and his ilk just ain't fair in that context.


Katsura Hoshino...


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## Mizura (Sep 24, 2011)

Oh come on, I've just looked at the rest of the rankings. Who the hell did some of these people bribe?
- Kamichu S-rank? Seriously?
- Bastard!! higher ranked than Berserk?!?
- Dragon Quest Retsuden A-rank? Wtf? I don't like One Piece's art style that much, but it's  leagues better than That! (Dragon Quest Retsuden looks like someone ripped off DBZ)
- I can get that not everybody likes Toriko's art style, but some of the stuff above it are seriously dated, man. =_=


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Mizura said:


> I kind of blame his storytelling rather than his artistic abilities for that. He's always trying to impress so much that he pretty much goes overboard.
> 
> 
> Seriously? Did you miss the likes of this ugly dude and this fat pig? In terms of variety, Bob from Tenjo Tenge was one of the few major black guys in Japanese manga (and damn cool too).



How is some ugly third rate background character indicative of his general character design? If you look at the main cast of his two successful manga, no one stands out, hell even Kishimoto and Kubo, who I consider pretty bad in that department, are able to come up with more memorable character designs

And Bob is as generic a black guy as it comes, so that's not something I'd mention as a positive




> I agree that some other artists are superior to Oh! Great on some aspects, especially realistic facial features and complex shading, but I wouldn't say that Oh! Great's lagging that far behind. Oh! Great draws the best mechanical gears, he draws extremely dynamics poses and angles with extreme ease (the most dynamic I've seen in any manga, and those are Damn hard to draw) and he throws the most variety of different items into his works (all sorts of intact or mutilated animals, mechanical machines ranging from detailed guns to battleships, weird monster designs, mutilated body parts...), which shows his Extreme flexibility as an artist. You can throw just about any genre at him, and he'll likely have no trouble illustrating it: fantasy, historical, sci-fi, sports, horror, ecchi, shoujo, whatever (in fact, his works are often all-in-one...).



Are we supposed to find the ability to draw animals, "mechanical machines" and mutilated body parts impressive now



> (wait, you said Hagiwara? As in, Bastard!? As for Kishiro, it's Battle Angel Alita, right? You seriously consider them having better art? :\ C'mon, we're talking Art here, not story, if there were one artists I'd hope to be able to draw as well as, it'd be Oh! Great, certainly not Hagiwara or Kishiro, unless their art has improved since)



Since when

When was the last time you saw anything from Hagiwara or Kishiro

Because if you're gushing over Oh! Great's ability to draw dynamic poses, I can't see how you'd scoff at the idea Kishiro does it better, as he excels in that particular field and draws the best action scenes since Toriyama

Hagiwara starting from roughly vol 17 of Bastard!! has incredible background, outfit, machinery and monster designs, the best use of screentones in the industry, draws some of the most memorable scenes of mass destruction I've ever seen and has comparable lineart to Oh!Great, his only weakness is his rather wacky concept of proportions and anatomy



> If Oh! Great wasted less time drawing naked girls (which bring down the reader's overall opinion of him, delegating him to "juvenile") and found a partner who could actually Write, he'd be a lot more popular than he is right now...



He's a former porn author

Comes with the territory


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## Lucciola (Sep 24, 2011)

I don't read both Naruto and Bleach anymore but I think Kubo's art is better than Kishimoto's (despite the lack of background).

Obata can't be lower than Kishimoto. That is not saying anything about the authors of Bastard!! and Berserk being only A-rank while Kishimoto's S-rank.

I would rank Kishimoto D-rank with Togashi even though imo Togashi at his best is better than Kishimoto at his best.

There is so many things wrong in this list. It's obvious trolling.


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## Inuhanyou (Sep 24, 2011)

-sigh-

WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS WORLD COMING TO!?


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## Bender (Sep 24, 2011)

High class trolling is high class trolling.


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## p-lou (Sep 24, 2011)

i can't stand oh great's art


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## dream (Sep 24, 2011)

> Hagiwara starting from roughly vol 17 of Bastard!! has incredible background, outfit, machinery and monster designs, the best use of screentones in the industry, draws some of the most memorable scenes of mass destruction I've ever seen and has comparable lineart to Oh!Great, his only weakness is his rather wacky concept of proportions and anatomy



I absolutely agree with this, Hagiwara has amazing artwork.  


*Spoiler*: __


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## Blade (Sep 24, 2011)

Hagiwara
Fujisaki (Houshin Engi)
Yang Kyung-Il (Shin Angyo Onshi)
Miura
Toriyama
Inoue
Kishiro (Alita/Last Order)
Araki

Best manga artists.


The end.


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## The Bite of the She-Wolf (Sep 24, 2011)

Typical Sankaku Complex troll reporting to rile up the teeming millions, nothing to see here.


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## Han Solo (Sep 24, 2011)

I still don't get how the heck Inoue manages to produce Vagabond weekly. The level of detail is absurd, almost everyone would burn out doing that.


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## Mizura (Sep 24, 2011)

Aldric said:


> How is some ugly third rate background character indicative of his general character design? If you look at the main cast of his two successful manga, no one stands out, hell even Kishimoto and Kubo, who I consider pretty bad in that department, are able to come up with more memorable character designs
> 
> And Bob is as generic a black guy as it comes, so that's not something I'd mention as a positive


You wanted ugly, I showed up the earliest ugly I could find, but there's plenty of old and ugly characters in Oh! Great's mangas. If you meant the main characters, well last I checked there was no-one in the main cast of Naruto that's uglier than Bucha and that other fat guy (even Chouji is less ugly than that pervert kid), and Kubo wins the lottery in the pretty-boy department. Although I agree that Kubo's exceptionally good at making memorable character designs, quite frankly, I've gotten bored of Kishimoto's already.

I guess you don't like Bob. Oh well. I do though. Japan is very racist, so it's rare to find a black guy as such an important character, especially so early on.



> Are we supposed to find the ability to draw animals, "mechanical machines" and mutilated body parts impressive now


Since we're discussing artistic ability, well yes! Variety is also the mark of a great artist, just like an artist that can only draw young pretty boys (which is not the case of Oh! Great) will not be thought of highly. Oh! Great can draw just about ANYTHING. All those separate categories of things take time and effort to master, and Oh! Great does all of them Very well. I'm pretty impressed by that.



> When was the last time you saw anything from Hagiwara or Kishiro
> 
> Hagiwara starting from roughly vol 17 of Bastard!! has incredible background, outfit, machinery and monster designs, the best use of screentones in the industry


Ah, I haven't read the latest few chapters, dunno which volume that was in. Looking at chapter 88, I'm not exactly impressed by the outfits (generic knight outfits), the machinery, or the fugly monster designs (berserk was better), but feel free to offer up examples, since I admit I don't know where the really impressive scenes are.



> his only weakness is his rather wacky concept of proportions and anatomy


Ah, okay, you just dismissed those. For me, that was the deal-killer.

As for Battle Angel Alita, I admit I didn't look it in full, but I just read chapters 104 and 105, and I barely has any of the dynamic pose + dynamic angle that Oh! Great's mangas are full of. :| Again, feel free to offer concrete examples. For me, Air Gear for example is full of these:

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(obviously, I ain't re-reading the whole manga, so these are just some examples I randomly picked out. Fortunately, it's not too hard to find impressive art in Air Gear)

Back in Tenjou Tenge (had a few pages saved up as reference, have a lot more than these, obviously):
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Basically, he treats perspective as a joke (as someone learning how to draw, I can tell how hard it is to get your poses and anatomy right in such ridiculous angles). He can even shade in a very detailed way, when he bothers to. His machines and weapons look as though they were freakin' rendered by a 3D software (they're probably not, it actually takes a long time to do 3D renders, especially if you want them to match up to a drawn pose, but it takes a whole lot of skill to play with perspective like that). He can do backgrounds of all kinds. He can be pretty good with expressions.

So yes, he may not be drawing Vagabond or Berserk, but he's pretty godly in his own right as an artist (story-teller is another problem).

I often look up the best art on Deviantart. I've seen plenty of people draw better than Kishimoto there, but very few that match up to Oh! Great's best scenes, or even average scenes (since it's hard to get those poses right). Oh! Great somehow manages to mass-produce them.


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## EVERY SINGLE DAY!!! (Sep 24, 2011)

Han Solo said:


> I still don't get how the heck Inoue manages to produce Vagabond weekly. The level of detail is absurd, almost everyone would burn out doing that.



He did burn out


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## God Movement (Sep 24, 2011)

Awful       .


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## dream (Sep 24, 2011)

> Ah, I haven't read the latest few chapters, dunno which volume that was in. Looking at chapter 88, I'm not exactly impressed by the outfits (generic knight outfits), the machinery, or the fugly monster designs (berserk was better), but feel free to offer up examples, since I admit I don't know where the really impressive scenes are.



That's back when the art was meh.  

 <- has some pictures that shows the current artwork of Bastard.


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## Superstars (Sep 24, 2011)

Alot of butthurt one piece fanboys.


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## Aldric (Sep 24, 2011)

Mizura said:


> You wanted ugly, I showed up the earliest ugly I could find, but there's plenty of old and ugly characters in Oh! Great's mangas. If you meant the main characters, well last I checked there was no-one in the main cast of Naruto that's uglier than Bucha and that other fat guy (even Chouji is less ugly than that pervert kid), and Kubo wins the lottery in the pretty-boy department. Although I agree that Kubo's exceptionally good at making memorable character designs, quite frankly, I've gotten bored of Kishimoto's already.
> 
> I guess you don't like Bob. Oh well. I do though. Japan is very racist, so it's rare to find a black guy as such an important character, especially so early on.



I don't care about Bob one way or another, I just don't think he's a remarkable character design

Here again Kishimoto's black guys are actually more creative and interesting, even if Killer Bee is pretty much a ripoff of a Tekken character

And lol at Kubo being "remarkably good" at anything





> Since we're discussing artistic ability, well yes! Variety is also the mark of a great artist, just like an artist that can only draw young pretty boys (which is not the case of Oh! Great) will not be thought of highly. Oh! Great can draw just about ANYTHING. All those separate categories of things take time and effort to master, and Oh! Great does all of them Very well. I'm pretty impressed by that.



The point is that this kind of variety isn't really something worth noting, I mean drawing animals, injuries or machines is something most mangaka can do rather well

Toriyama was great at drawing cars and motorcycles for ex



> Ah, I haven't read the latest few chapters, dunno which volume that was in. Looking at chapter 88, I'm not exactly impressed by the outfits (generic knight outfits), the machinery, or the fugly monster designs (berserk was better), but feel free to offer up examples, since I admit I don't know where the really impressive scenes are.



If that's the last chapter available in online manga reading sites, that's like vol 10 or something, that was 20 years ago 




> As for Battle Angel Alita, I admit I didn't look it in full, but I just read chapters 104 and 105, and I barely has any of the dynamic pose + dynamic angle that Oh! Great's mangas are full of. :| Again, feel free to offer concrete examples. For me, Air Gear for example is full of these:
> 
> even Bankai Ichigo failed to follow it
> even Bankai Ichigo failed to follow it
> ...



A lot of these examples are static poses from a side perspective, what exactly are you on about here

I do agree that he has a good grasp on perspective, but that's hardly something that's worthy of the praise you shower him with

I might peruse Last Order to find some impressive action sequences if I can be arsed later


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## Deathbringerpt (Sep 24, 2011)

**Taking 2chan and fucking Sankaku Complex with any amount of seriousness**

Dont fucking do this, you twats. Ever.


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## Malumultimus (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm not knocking Kubo, but people always praise him for "character design"...

...you know there's like 3 outfits in the entire series, right? He got a little creative with the Vaizards and Fullbringers, but most of them are nothing special. Meanwhile, all Shinigami wear like the same thing and all Arrancar wear like the same thing. He just changes each one a little bit, like giving Nnoitra that unnecessary spoon-shaped hood thing. I don't think I need to mention all the characters that look the same, right? When Rukia showed up after the timeskip, people thought she was Hanatarou.

I do think Kubo, now, is trying to make up for a lot of the short-sightedness he had earlier on, in terms of both character design and world building, but it's an uphill battle...



Superstars said:


> Alot of butthurt one piece fanboys.



...Where?


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## Pseudo (Sep 25, 2011)

I'm more surprised at Oda being on this list.


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## Edward Newgate (Sep 25, 2011)

ThePseudo said:


> I'm more surprised at Oda being on this list.


Why? He IS a good artist. Just because you don't like the style in which he draws most of the characters, doesn't mean he is a bad artist.


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## Fang (Sep 25, 2011)

Aldric said:


> Oh shit I didn't notice the Yotsuba guy was on the same tier as Oda and Araki hahahaha



who are all below Kishimoto senpai


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