# kratos vs raiden (mgrr)



## firekioken (Mar 12, 2013)

Raiden


Vs

Kratos


Mindset: In character
Restrictions: They only use their default weapons( HF blade for Raiden and Dual blades for Kratos (or however thosearenamed))

Who wins? Please explain and elaborate


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## Orochimaru800 (Mar 12, 2013)

Any particular version of Kratos you have in mind?(GoW1, GoS, GoW2, Ascension?)

Or are you using OBD standards and using GoW3 Kratos  to fight Raiden?


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## Unlosing Ranger (Mar 12, 2013)

prequel Kratos?


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## firekioken (Mar 12, 2013)

Dont know about GoW the version that makes this matchup the most competitve


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## MAPSK (Mar 12, 2013)

No additional items? Just a fight in terms of pure swordsmanship?

lol raiden speedblitz gg


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## Tsubori (Mar 12, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> No additional items? Just a fight in terms of pure swordsmanship?
> 
> lol raiden speedblitz gg



:repstorm

That happens to Kratos.


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## ironherc (Mar 13, 2013)

kratos gets sliced into tiny pieces, raiden is way too fast for him


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

Doesn't Kratos have mach 1000 reactions? As well as enough strenght to hold off Atlus and beat down Hercules?


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2013)

I've never heard the claims for the first part. Source plz?


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## Hyperion1O1 (Mar 13, 2013)

When Zeus threw a lightning bolt at him and he dodged. I only know of one person who has the source and he's our beloved mod, Willyvereb.


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## Tsubori (Mar 13, 2013)

Firstly, are we sure it acts like a normal lightning bolt? Was it Aimdodging? And is it a complete outlier?

Secondly, just a question I'm wondering now... With MGRR, is Raiden now the strongest character in all of Metal Gear?


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2013)

Tsubori said:


> Firstly, are we sure it acts like a normal lightning bolt? Was it Aimdodging? And is it a complete outlier?
> 
> Secondly, just a question I'm wondering now... With MGRR, is Raiden now the strongest character in all of Metal Gear?



No, probably, most likely, and yes, all in that order.


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## Tsubori (Mar 13, 2013)

Sweet. Raiden be getting some love now. We need to get quantifying how fast he's cutting though... Given how slow the debris falls there's gotta be some way to do it, right? (Sucks at physics)


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

Apparently it wasn't aim dodging either as Krato deflected the bolts with the Golden Fleece. If kratos' reactions are indeed that fast, Raiden isn't wanting to go into a phsyical confrontation with him.


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 13, 2013)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> When Zeus threw a lightning bolt at him and he dodged. I only know of one person who has the source and he's our beloved mod, Willyvereb.


The quantification for the feat is in the Official God of War Novel,it was actually 3000+,but I guess they scaled it down,and Kratos fought and dominated Zeus twice,and Zeus entire combat system is based on lightning and magic,implying that Kratos somehow managed to get through all of that without having the appropriate reflexes is preposterous. Raiden is subsonic according to OBD standards ,and has incredible immunity to lightning,and that isn't enough to beat K-MaN. 

And he actually deflected an Lightning Arc from Zeus in a QTE, so that further supports an argument to this bullshit.


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## Tsubori (Mar 13, 2013)

For the record, the OBD page on Raiden is HORRIBLY out of date. He went from that to THIS shit.

Since when was this

Look at 6:00. Raiden is very much the most powerful character in Metal gear now. Also note how slow the metal parts as he blades the thing to ribbons. That means he's swinging that massive mecha arm, VERY VERY quickly.


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

Kratos stomps either way if his reflexes are mach 3000+ as he simply grabs Raiden if he comes close and snaps him in two.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 13, 2013)

I'm like 100% sure that got deunked or something. 

Or maybe I'm thinking of something else.

It had something to do with canonicity or something IIRC.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2013)

Redterror said:


> Kratos stomps either way if his reflexes are mach 3000+ as he simply grabs Raiden if he comes close and snaps him in two.



>Implying Kratos could snap Raiden in two on a good day

Hahahaha no. Unless Kratos has suddenly miraculously gained the ability to beat Senator Armstrong in HtH combat, he can't hurt Raiden, no matter how much faster he is. Hell, Raiden would probably let him grab him as a ploy to stab him in his potatoey face.


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> >Implying Kratos could snap Raiden in two on a good day
> 
> Hahahaha no. Unless Kratos has suddenly miraculously gained the ability to beat Senator Armstrong in HtH combat, he can't hurt Raiden, no matter how much faster he is. Hell, Raiden would probably let him grab him as a ploy to stab him in his potatoey face.



I remember Kratos being estimated being much migher than City Block/Multi-City Block level, I think he's City level in strength but I could be wrong.

As for the feat being debunked, I don't think it has been although my mistake if so.


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## MAPSK (Mar 13, 2013)

Redterror said:


> I remember Kratos being estimated being much migher than City Block/Multi-City Block level, I think he's City level in strength but I could be wrong.
> 
> As for the feat being debunked, I don't think it has been although my mistake if so.



>Kratos having city level physical strength
>Kratos having MHS reactions
>Kratos having anything you're talking about

[YOUTUBE]Cb4R-FvEKgM[/YOUTUBE]

Also, was it ever specified what kind of lightning it was that he blocked? Was it cloud to earth? What part of it? Was it the stepped leader, or the discharge?


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> >Kratos having city level physical strength
> >Kratos having MHS reactions
> >Kratos having anything you're talking about
> 
> ...



I haven't looked at the calc and the particular thread it was in in ages, and at the time I was sceptical as well. I'm also unsure of the lightning type either. In terms of strength, I think it's based off of Kratos beating down Hercules, who performed all 12 labours (as well as other feats suck as resisting Atlus). I'll try to find the thread.

edit: I don't recall the specific type of lightning, however the feat that was calced was basically Zeus throwing a lightning bolt from Mt Olympus half way across the world more or less in the space of a second/few seconds. The main issue was whether the source material was canon, and the novel eventually was deemed canon. As far as I'm aware, Kratos has MHS reflexes, not sure what the consensus is now. 

His strength I'm still unsure, but he should much stronger by a fair margin.


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## Cypher0120 (Mar 13, 2013)

Redterror said:


> I haven't looked at the calc and the particular thread it was in in ages, and at the time I was sceptical as well. I'm also unsure of the lightning type either. In terms of strength, I think it's based off of Kratos beating down Hercules, who performed all 12 labours (as well as other feats suck as resisting Atlus). I'll try to find the thread.
> 
> edit: I don't recall the specific type of lightning, however the feat that was calced was basically Zeus throwing a lightning bolt from Mt Olympus half way across the world more or less in the space of a second/few seconds. The main issue was whether the source material was canon, and the novel eventually was deemed canon. As far as I'm aware, Kratos has MHS reflexes, not sure what the consensus is now.
> 
> His strength I'm still unsure, but he should much stronger by a fair margin.



May want to recheck the canonicity of said novel. Holding the follow-up sequel to that novel, there have been a lot of nerfs to be given.

Page 24 and 26 of the God of War 2 novel, arrows and slivers of stone from regular troops of Rhodes are enough to penetrate Kratos' armor.

A little bit after that, Kratos' skin is pierced by slivers of stone that was caused by him smashing through a rock. The damage done was nowhere near city or city-level.

His best feat was avoiding three arrows shot at him right after he got out of Hades.

Gorgon's don't transmute their victims into stone, they're simply encased in it and Kratos is described as nearly being killed should he have been turned to stone a third time or so.

Atlas was certainly only making him suffer when he caught Kratos in his fingers and not even trying to kill him after listening to his plea.

Lightning-timing is nearly non-existent.

The first 'lightning-like' attack performed by Zeus was a sweep of the area they fought in during the last battle. A sweep that Kratos had enough time to pull the Blade of Olympus before Zeus was even performing that attack. The second lightning-attack was barely noteworthy. It went something like "Zeus threw lightning and then Kratos redirected it with the golden fleece" or something. Keeping in mind that Kratos was already prepared for Zeus' attacks then and that the thrown lightning is certainly not the Mach 3000 one as described in the God of War 1 novel. Potentially an outlier, or perhaps the thunderbolt that Zeus flicked was not the same one as the lightning that struck close to Ares in Egypt.

Also, the God of War world is most definitely not the same geographically as ours. It's flat, there is no giant mountain the size of God of War Olympus in present-day Athens, etc. Distances are irrelevant then.

I'll grab the book tomorrow and provide quotes and page numbers.


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## Redterror (Mar 13, 2013)

Cypher0120 said:


> May want to recheck the canonicity of said novel. Holding the follow-up sequel to that novel, there have been a lot of nerfs to be given.
> 
> Page 24 and 26 of the God of War 2 novel, arrows and slivers of stone from regular troops of Rhodes are enough to penetrate Kratos' armor.
> 
> ...



Ah I see, it appears then there was a heavy case of wanking? I suppose then, Kratos gets mauled by Raiden as he doesn't have the speed to keep up and though he might or might not be stroger, it doesn't matter anyway as he's not taking Raiden's strikes.

Fair enough, it seems I was wrong. Kratos gets cut up like sushi.


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## Red Angel (Mar 13, 2013)

Going with Raiden. Cypher already outlined why


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 13, 2013)

I thought II was coming out in April,well if the Nerfs are true then I retract my statement about the Mhs calc,is it available on Amazon yet?


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 13, 2013)

And I don't recall Raiden having strength close to Kratos,what are his best feats,regardless of the Atlas technicality there are still ones like Holding back Cronos, and kicking back the Colossus several hundred feet.


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## Cypher0120 (Mar 13, 2013)

Navy Scribe said:


> I thought II was coming out in April,well if the Nerfs are true then I retract my statement about the Mhs calc,is it available on Amazon yet?



It's available at your local bookstore like Chapters, Indigo, etc. I'll assume it's in Amazon as well.


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 13, 2013)

Cypher0120 said:


> It's available at your local bookstore like Chapters, Indigo, etc. I'll assume it's in Amazon as well.



Thanks,I just prefer it to be digital since it will be easier to keep.


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## firekioken (Mar 14, 2013)

Remember guys this is Metal Gear Rising Revengeance Raiden, if you have not seen it its already on youtube


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## Red Angel (Mar 14, 2013)

EDIT: Oh, that was the OP >.>

Still, we know, we can read


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Navy Scribe said:


> And I don't recall Raiden having strength close to Kratos,what are his best feats,regardless of the Atlas technicality there are still ones like Holding back Cronos, and kicking back the Colossus several hundred feet.



[YOUTUBE]Tbd8VeerVjA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Xiammes (Mar 14, 2013)

All this Kratos downplay.

The MHS calc comes from when Zeus sent lighting down to spook Ares, it traveled from Mount Olympus to Egypt in a "instant", a logical assumption when anyone says instant, we assume the time frame of 1 second, Zeus magic lighting would have had to be traveling at least mach 3000. So it doesn't matter if its magic lighting or not, we already have a speed. The only problem is that we don't know of its canon or not.

MAPSK I'd like to know where in that Metal Gear Video is Raiden is supposed to anything as impressive as Kratos, even at the end where he lifts Excelsus. Atlas has been holding up the entire fucking world for god knows how long and Cronos who who walks around with a mountain sized temple on his back, Hades has overpowered  Cronos and shown to be in the level of strength as Atlas. Kratos has overpowered Hades, and resisted being crushed by bloodlusted Atlas and Cronos.

Raidens sword is more likely to break on Kratos then actually injuring him.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> All this Kratos downplay.
> 
> The MHS calc comes from when Zeus sent lighting down to spook Ares, it traveled from Mount Olympus to Egypt in a "instant", a logical assumption when anyone says instant, we assume the time frame of 1 second, Zeus magic lighting would have had to be traveling at least mach 3000. So it doesn't matter if its magic lighting or not, we already have a speed. The only problem is that we don't know of its canon or not.
> 
> ...



Relevant to your post:



Cypher0120 said:


> May want to recheck the canonicity of said novel. Holding the follow-up sequel to that novel, there have been a lot of nerfs to be given.
> 
> Page 24 and 26 of the God of War 2 novel, arrows and slivers of stone from regular troops of Rhodes are enough to penetrate Kratos' armor.
> 
> ...



Also, how exactly does a strength feat correlate to Kratos' durability? For one, Atlas' strength is unquantifiable due to the aforementioned geographic differences, two, Kratos resisted being crushed by all of two fingers. That's hardly the same thing as saying he's as strong as Atlas. Besides, strength or no, unless you provide feats either proving Kratos is massively hypersonic or that his durability is as good as you claim, Raiden's HF blade turns him into long pig sushi.

EDIT: Also, "an instant" is a very wonky term in fiction, and doesn't make for reliable calcs, since it leaves so much open for interpretation. But it doesn't really matter, since it doesn't look like that book was canon.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

I know Kratos supposedly blocks lightning from Zeus, does he have more low end feats than high end ie getting tagged and pierced by arrows? If so then you cant assume Kratos is fast enough to tag Raiden, or even tank his blows (Although I DO think Kratos is stronger, even when considering the feats he displayed in Rising)


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## Boomy (Mar 14, 2013)

Kratos would have to catch a sword and then apply force on it to break it since I don't really see how it would break on his body without applying any force.

OP, can Jack dual wield HF Blade and Muramasa?


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

Didn't Kratos survive a volcanic eruption that sank Atlantis? In Ghost of Sparta?


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Didn't Kratos survive a volcanic eruption that sank Atlantis? In Ghost of Sparta?



Really? Was this before he became a God?


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## Boomy (Mar 14, 2013)

I think he escaped before Atlantis sank.


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

I remember him being flung from Atlantis by the force of the explosion.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

It sounds like Kratos' feats are just like actual Greek mythology. Wildly inconsistent


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## Xiammes (Mar 14, 2013)

> Also, how exactly does a strength feat correlate to Kratos' durability? For one, Atlas' strength is unquantifiable due to the aforementioned geographic differences, two, Kratos resisted being crushed by all of two fingers. That's hardly the same thing as saying he's as strong as Atlas. Besides, strength or no, unless you provide feats either proving Kratos is massively hypersonic or that his durability is as good as you claim, Raiden's HF blade turns him into long pig sushi.



Strength and durability are related, for ever action there is a equal and opposite reactions. If Kratos durability wasn't as high as his strength, he would be injuring himself all the god damn time like Izaya does in Durarara. 

Atlas strength maybe unquantifiable due to differences in geography, but we have seen enough of the God of War verse that if he lifting it up, it shits all over Raidens strength feats. Also I am not saying resisting Atlas gives the same realm of strength, I am saying Kratos overpowering Hades does considering Hades is manhandling Cronos in the Flashback and is capable of ripping Atlas soul out.



> EDIT: Also, "an instant" is a very wonky term in fiction, and doesn't make for reliable calcs, since it leaves so much open for interpretation. But it doesn't really matter, since it doesn't look like that book was canon.



We always assume a instant means a second, its how many calcs are done in the OBD. Its a fair and logical assumption, unless we have evidence otherwise. 





> Page 24 and 26 of the God of War 2 novel, arrows and slivers of stone from regular troops of Rhodes are enough to penetrate Kratos' armor.
> 
> A little bit after that, Kratos' skin is pierced by slivers of stone that was caused by him smashing through a rock. The damage done was nowhere near city or city-level.



Low end outlier, not consistent of his other feats.



> His best feat was avoiding three arrows shot at him right after he got out of Hades.



Are you referring to his novel feats or his overall feats.



> Gorgon's don't transmute their victims into stone, they're simply encased in it and Kratos is described as nearly being killed should he have been turned to stone a third time or so.



I'd like to see a quote where they say they only in case them into stone, even then Kratos gets turned to stone more then three times in the games.



> Atlas was certainly only making him suffer when he caught Kratos in his fingers and not even trying to kill him after listening to his plea.



Atlas was pissed off at Kratos, you are going to have a hard time convincing me he wasn't try to kill him.




> The first 'lightning-like' attack performed by Zeus was a sweep of the area they fought in during the last battle. A sweep that Kratos had enough time to pull the Blade of Olympus before Zeus was even performing that attack. The second lightning-attack was barely noteworthy. It went something like "Zeus threw lightning and then Kratos redirected it with the golden fleece" or something. Keeping in mind that Kratos was already prepared for Zeus' attacks then and that the thrown lightning is certainly not the Mach 3000 one as described in the God of War 1 novel. Potentially an outlier, or perhaps the thunderbolt that Zeus flicked was not the same one as the lightning that struck close to Ares in Egypt.



Its laughable to assume Zeus would use slower lighting on Kratos and the Golden is not a fucking shield you hold up. Golden fleece works by intercepting the attack, even if he was prepared he would still need to move his arm to block after Zeus threw the bolt, which means he would have to react to it and move his arm fast enough to intercept. 

It wouldn't be a outlier because Kratos has never failed to react to anything, except for Ares pillar throw(even then it looks like Kratos trying to block), the pillar feat itself would have to be hypersonic for the distance it traveled without losing altitude. 

Then we have the point where Kratos fought Hermes and ripped off his legs.



> Also, the God of War world is most definitely not the same geographically as ours. It's flat, there is no giant mountain the size of God of War Olympus in present-day Athens, etc. Distances are irrelevant then.



You have a point here, about the world being flat, the distances would be different then real life comparisons. The Mountain not being in Athens doesn't disprove shit.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Xiammes, how strong do you think Kratos is? Is he in the City-Island level range, or am I mis remembering something?


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Strength and durability are related, for ever action there is a equal and opposite reactions. If Kratos durability wasn't as high as his strength, he would be injuring himself all the god damn time like Izaya does in Durarara.



... That's Shizuo, you idiot 

Alright, playing along and assuming that something like that applies consistently in lolfiction, how exactly would you scale his strength to his durability? How would you convert it? Do you even have solid numbers for his striking and lifting strength? And again, we have no way to calc exactly how much force Atlas was exerting on Kratos. For all we know, he could've been using the same amount of force he'd use to tickle someone. And again, it was two fingers. We can gain absolutely nothing worthwhile from this feat, because we can't get any kind of solid numbers from it. We can only estimate, and frankly, I'll take numbers over estimation any day.



Xiammes said:


> Atlas strength maybe unquantifiable due to differences in geography, but we have seen enough of the God of War verse that if he lifting it up, it shits all over Raidens strength feats. Also I am not saying resisting Atlas gives the same realm of strength, I am saying Kratos overpowering Hades does considering Hades is manhandling Cronos in the Flashback and is capable of ripping Atlas soul out.



Soulfuck does not equate to a strength feat. I didn't think that would need explaining. And again, even if it did, absolutely unquantifiable. We don't know how much a soul "weighs" or how much force someone can exert to "resist" having their soul tugged out.



Xiammes said:


> We always assume a instant means a second, its how many calcs are done in the OBD. Its a fair and logical assumption, unless we have evidence otherwise.



Well it's a goddamn shitty assumption, because technically speaking, an instant assumes instantaneous travel, meaning no time elapses. Of course, as we all know, instant is almost never used in this context. What it usually means is a very short amount of time. However, nowhere was it ever said that this amount of time was a second. It just refers to a very short, seemingly imperceptible amount of time from the observer's perspective. It could be less than a second, it could be more, so calcing something off of an assumption of what an instant means in any given context is absolutely retarded.



Xiammes said:


> Low end outlier, not consistent of his other feats.



Other feats in the first novel? Because I remember Kratos getting injured by a lot less in the games. It's not like arrows bounce off of his skin.



Xiammes said:


> Atlas was pissed off at Kratos, you are going to have a hard time convincing me he wasn't try to kill him.



If he was actually trying to kill him, he would've used more than two goddamn fingers to crush him. How's that?



Xiammes said:


> Its laughable to assume Zeus would use slower lighting on Kratos and the Golden is not a fucking shield you hold up. Golden fleece works by intercepting the attack, even if he was prepared he would still need to move his arm to block after Zeus threw the bolt, which means he would have to react to it and move his arm fast enough to intercept.



I thought he was already anticipating the attack, wasn't he?



Xiammes said:


> You have a point here, about the world being flat, the distances would be different then real life comparisons. The Mountain not being in Athens doesn't disprove shit.



It disproves the idea that comparing God of War geography to the present day's in any way is a valid way to measure feats, given that we've seen the Earth is flat and that there are giant mountains in Athens which don't actually exist. We could _assume_ things about the geography of such an Earth, but that's all they would be. Assumptions. Unless the novels give a precise distance of how far that lightning bolt traveled, we can get absolutely nothing of value from it. And again, wasn't he expecting that attack in the first place?


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## Xiammes (Mar 14, 2013)

> Xiammes, how strong do you think Kratos is? Is he in the City-Island level range, or am I mis remembering something?



I don't know, no one gives GoW the time of the day to try and get calcs. Its certainly a lot more then what Raiden can do. This downplay is disgusting.



> ... That's Shizuo, you idiot



My bad.



> Alright, playing along and assuming that something like that applies consistently in lolfiction, how exactly would you scale his strength to his durability? How would you convert it?



It means at a baseline, his body is capable of dealing with the stress of what he exerts. You need to figure up how much force is needed for the strength feat, and then that means their body must be able to withstand that much.



> Do you even have solid numbers for his striking and lifting strength? And again, we have no way to calc exactly how much force Atlas was exerting on Kratos. For all we know, he could've been using the same amount of force he'd use to tickle someone. And again, it was two fingers. We can gain absolutely nothing worthwhile from this feat, because we can't get any kind of solid numbers from it. We can only estimate, and frankly, I'll take numbers over estimation any day.



We know Atlas was trying to kill Kratos at first, which means he would be putting as power as he can.




> Soulfuck does not equate to a strength feat. I didn't think that would need explaining. And again, even if it did, absolutely unquantifiable. We don't know how much a soul "weighs" or how much force someone can exert to "resist" having their soul tugged out.



In this case, the soul fuck demands Hades is strong enough to over power his target as they can just pull there soul right back in, which Kratos did. Hades was manhandling Cronos till Atlas came to his aid.




> Well it's a goddamn shitty assumption, because technically speaking, an instant assumes instantaneous travel, meaning no time elapses. Of course, as we all know, instant is almost never used in this context. What it usually means is a very short amount of time. However, nowhere was it ever said that this amount of time was a second. It just refers to a very short, seemingly imperceptible amount of time from the observer's perspective. It could be less than a second, it could be more, so calcing something off of an assumption of what an instant means in any given context is absolutely retarded.



No when using the "instant" quotes, the timeframe of 1 second is a low ball. If you want to argue that the action takes more then a second, you are going to need proof to contradict it. If you want to contest this, make a meta battledome thread.




> Other feats in the first novel? Because I remember Kratos getting injured by a lot less in the games. It's not like arrows bounce off of his skin.



Not even the novels, everything contradicts its.



> If he was actually trying to kill him, he would've used more than two goddamn fingers to crush him. How's that?



Tell me what body parts would he have used to Kratos otherwise. The guy is immobile while holding the world.



> I thought he was already anticipating the attack, wasn't he?



Anticipating or not, Kratos would need some precognition ability to perfectly anticipate it. Kratos would had to be moving his arm before Zeus launched his attack, and to get the perfect time Kratos would need some precog, which he doesn't have, meaning we can only assume Kratos reacted to the lighting after it was fired and then started moving.





> It disproves the idea that comparing God of War geography to the present day's in any way is a valid way to measure feats, given that we've seen the Earth is flat and that there are giant mountains in Athens which don't actually exist. We could _assume_ things about the geography of such an Earth, but that's all they would be. Assumptions. Unless the novels give a precise distance of how far that lightning bolt traveled, we can get absolutely nothing of value from it. And again, wasn't he expecting that attack in the first place?




The mountain in Athens doesn't disprove shit, the world being flat does disprove the distance is different. If we were to even attempt it, we would need scale the distance from space and use the diameter of the earth to get a flat distance.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I don't know, no one gives GoW the time of the day to try and get calcs. Its certainly a lot more then what Raiden can do. This downplay is disgusting.



It's not downplay if we have nothing quantifiable to work with. Show me some valid calcs, and I'll gladly concede. It's just that the evidence you've put forward so far is either of questionable canonicity, or has only assumptions backing it. 



Xiammes said:


> My bad.



Damn right it is 



Xiammes said:


> It means at a baseline, his body is capable of dealing with the stress of what he exerts. You need to figure up how much force is needed for the strength feat, and then that means their body must be able to withstand that much.



Alright, that's fair enough. We still don't know how much force was used, though.



Xiammes said:


> We know Atlas was trying to kill Kratos at first, which means he would be putting as power as he can.



Do you put as much power as you can into squashing a bug? Because that's literally all Kratos amounts to in front of Atlas.



Xiammes said:


> In this case, the soul fuck demands Hades is strong enough to over power his target as they can just pull there soul right back in, which Kratos did. Hades was manhandling Cronos till Atlas came to his aid.



Again, soulfuck is not a strength feat. Any kind of resistance to soulfuck in this case would fall under soulfuck resistance, not strength or durability.



Xiammes said:


> No when using the "instant" quotes, the timeframe of 1 second is a low ball. If you want to argue that the action takes more then a second, you are going to need proof to contradict it. If you want to contest this, make a meta battledome thread.



Fair enough. I suppose I'll let the issue drop for now, but I might honestly make that thread, because this seems like a very unreliable way to calc things. And I'm not saying this because I want Raiden to win, because I'd easily concede if things really were so tilted in Kratos' favor. I just have a hard time believing the validity of what few calcs GoW has.



Xiammes said:


> Not even the novels, everything contradicts its.



Again, he can be hurt by arrows and rocks in the games. Not seeing how it's inconsistent.



Xiammes said:


> Tell me what body parts would he have used to Kratos otherwise. The guy is immobile while holding the world.



Off the top of my head? He could have made a fist and crushed him in the palm of his hand, he could've shoved him in his mouth and chewed on him, or he could have just dropped him from a height which I'm pretty sure would kill him.



Xiammes said:


> Anticipating or not, Kratos would need some precognition ability to perfectly anticipate it. Kratos would had to be moving his arm before Zeus launched his attack, and to get the perfect time Kratos would need some precog, which he doesn't have, meaning we can only assume Kratos reacted to the lighting after it was fired and then started moving.



I'll let someone else handle this for now.



Xiammes said:


> The mountain in Athens doesn't disprove shit, the world being flat does disprove the distance is different. If we were to even attempt it, we would need scale the distance from space and use the diameter of the earth to get a flat distance.



You don't get what I mean. We have enough evidence to believe that the geography of the GoW Earth is radically different from that of the actual Earth, meaning any attempt to scale the two of them is going to be radically flawed. If we didn't have any reason not to believe that this Earth was just a flatter version of our own, it'd be a different story. But what we're given in in-game material suggests a fantasy Earth, one which can't be scaled to ours without something getting lost in translation.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

If Kratos did survive a volcanic eruption it does indicate a lot more than peak human durability. Unfortunately the calc that the guy made can't be found, although the source material (GOW novel) IS canon apparently. Strength would come from Kratos man-handling guys like Hades, who can dominate Cronos like Xiammes said. No matter which way you spin it, Raiden isn't out-muscling Kratos, the only issue is speed and probably durability...


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Well, Kratos' durability is FAR above peak human. I just don't think it's city level. Same goes for his strength. I'm willing to believe he's far above building level or any shit like that, I just don't think he has enough firepower to take down Raiden, considering Raiden's armor was no-selling punches from Armstrong equivalent to 19 tons of TNT if I remember the calc correctly.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Well, Kratos' durability is FAR above peak human. I just don't think it's city level. Same goes for his strength. I'm willing to believe he's far above building level or any shit like that, I just don't think he has enough firepower to take down Raiden, considering Raiden's armor was no-selling punches from Armstrong equivalent to 19 tons of TNT if I remember the calc correctly.



His durability depends on how strong he and his opponents are as he takes punches from people in his strength class IIRC. I honestly think that he's way higher than Building Level, not sure if he's exactly City level, although I did see someone say he has millions of tons worth of strength (although he could have been wanking lol)


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Well that's exactly what I mean. I'm not trying to downplay Kratos, at least not intentionally, it's just that I need solid numbers, or some feat that definitively shows him dishing out or tanking something above Raiden's level. So far though, I ain't seeing it. At best, we have assumptions and calcs of questionable canonicity.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

You're actually right imo, there's only two calcs for the entire GOW series. Both speed calcs which are quite dubious. His strength is based on beating down the typically strong Greek monsters/Gods/Demi-Gods.

I think he stomped Hercules, who performed all twelve labours. I'm not sure what to make of that. Overall, Kratos is quite an ambiguous character in terms of overall power, and probably will continue to be so until someone can be fucked to calc his feats.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Sadly, this is probably true. Although I'd love to see him fight F/SN Heracles and see how _that_ goes


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

> It's not downplay if we have nothing quantifiable to work with. Show me some valid calcs, and I'll gladly concede. It's just that the evidence you've put forward so far is either of questionable canonicity, or has only assumptions backing it.



Fuck me, this is retarded.

First off, calcs aren't the gospel. People like you blindly follow them and let them cloud your common sense, you shouldn't even need calcs to gather that Kratos is physically stronger than Raiden, just look at how he stopped Cronos from crushing him, who holds a mountain sized temple on his back.



> Again, soulfuck is not a strength feat. Any kind of resistance to soulfuck in this case would fall under soulfuck resistance, not strength or durability.



You have played God of War, right? 

Hades uses his claws to pull out souls, meaning he has to physically latch onto and overpower them.

Xiammes is right, this downplay is fucking disgusting and I'm not even a God of War fan.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Sadly, this is probably true. Although I'd love to see him fight F/SN Heracles and see how _that_ goes



Not very well (For Kratos) I assume?


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Kratos' strength was never in doubt for me, even though I have never played through the game myself. But it's just his speed that's the question.


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm not arguing speed, I'm not even arguing the match as I don't really care.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Fair enough, although I do see where you're coming from. I'm only doing this because I'm bored hahaha


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

You seem to misunderstand me. Is Kratos physically stronger than Raiden? Fuck yes he is. Is he strong enough to break through Raiden's armor? I doubt it, and that's what I need calcs for. Plus, this is all irrelevant, considering Kratos' speed is still in question, and Raiden's HF blade/Muramasa sword IS capable of hurting people on Armstrong's level of durability a.k.a Raiden's own.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 14, 2013)

Kratos' raw stats on strength and durability are a non-issue considering how obvious he outclasses Raiden. As Ulti said, you really don't need calcs for that. While it doesn't necessarily mean Atlas is holding an actual planet, the amount of what he's holding outweighs whatever Raiden held up on the virtue of size alone. And he fought gods and Titans like that.

Speed, that's one I've always been iffy about. But none the less, Raiden would be hard pressed to beat him.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

But again, we can't assume that Atlas used his full strength. If we had proof that he did and that Kratos held off a serious attack from someone who can lift up a land mass that size, would I believe he drastically outclasses Raiden? Yes, I would. That would be obvious. But considering we have no idea what degree of force Atlas was exerting on Kratos (it couldn't have been much, because again, two fingers) or how large the GoW Earth actually is, we can't come to any concrete conclusions about Kratos' strength or durability. At least not from that scene alone.


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

Dude, at the start of the first game, Kratos manhandled the Hydra which is iirc the size of a small island. How is Raiden not getting broken in half from a hit like that? I completed Rising a few days ago and I saw nothing that implies that.

Again, I'm not arguing the actual match as I don't really care here, I'm just pointing out what should be common sense.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 14, 2013)

Did Atlas use his full strength? Probably not. Though whatever strength he used was held off.

Now GoW3 where Kratos is back handing the Greek Pantheon on the other hand is a different story. Since he's essentially fighting both the Gods that fought the Titans and the Titans themselves. Plus outstrengthing Herc who just got back from doing his 12 Labors, one being pulling an Atlas. So he has more reasonable powerscaling there. Then there's whatever feats he did in the prequel games but I wouldn't know since I never played Ghost of Sparta and Ascension. GoW3 Kratos being the strongest version.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 14, 2013)

> it traveled from Mount Olympus to Egypt in a "instant", a* logical assumption when anyone says instant, we assume the time frame of 1 second*


not really

just try that in the actual blogs  people are very touchy about timeframes and with good reason

it means fast as fuck, but unquantifiable

doesn't matter here, but just saiyan




Kratos seems to have the better feats here

I only played the PSP games though, and some on PS2


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## Ulti (Mar 14, 2013)

Atlas was blatantly attempting to harm Kratos, iirc he was drawing blood.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Mar 14, 2013)

Its been awhile. I haven't played 2 since before I got my PS3.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Hunteri Heroci said:


> Dude, at the start of the first game, Kratos manhandled the Hydra which is iirc the size of a small island. How is Raiden not getting broken in half from a hit like that? I completed Rising a few days ago and I saw nothing that implies that.
> 
> Again, I'm not arguing the actual match as I don't really care here, I'm just pointing out what should be common sense.



GoW wiki says "small island", and considering, as we all know, most writers have no sense of scale, their definition of "small island" may be different from our definition of "small island". And it really doesn't help that we've never seen the full length of the hydra's body, just its heads (as far as I know, anyway). So we don't really have a grasp on the size of the Hydra or the amount of damage it can tank.

I'm sorry if I seem obtuse here, but I just have a hard time buying city level Kratos.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> GoW wiki says "small island", and considering, as we all know, most writers have no sense of scale, their definition of "small island" may be different from our definition of "small island". And it really doesn't help that we've never seen the full length of the hydra's body, just its heads (as far as I know, anyway). So we don't really have a grasp on the size of the Hydra or the amount of damage it can tank.
> 
> I'm sorry if I seem obtuse here, but I just have a hard time buying city level Kratos.



Let's be honest, these people aren't stupid. I'm sure the devs know what a small island is.


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Redterror said:


> Let's be honest, these people aren't stupid. I'm sure the devs know what a small island is.



You would be surprised. I've met people who think a small island means a land mass smaller than Outer Haven, and Raiden held that shit back in an obsolete cyborg body.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 14, 2013)

the hydra in the first game ? doesn't it attack the ship ?

scale ship from Kratos and hydra from ship ?


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## MAPSK (Mar 14, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> the hydra in the first game ? doesn't it attack the ship ?
> 
> scale ship from Kratos and hydra from ship ?



Yeah. And if you do it like that, you hardly get something equal to an island in any respect. Outer Haven was probably bigger.


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Yeah but these guys are paid professionals, I doubt they're gonna get the measurements of a small island wrong but hey i have been proven wrong before.


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## Expelsword (Mar 14, 2013)

Hold up, isn't Kratos really strong?
I thought he picked up/tanked blows from colossal characters...


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## Redterror (Mar 14, 2013)

Expelsword said:


> Hold up, isn't Kratos really strong?
> I thought he picked up/tanked blows from colossal characters...



You aren't mistaken, the only concern is speed I think.


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## Blackfeather Dragon (Mar 14, 2013)

Navy Scribe said:


> The quantification for the feat is in the Official God of War Novel,it was actually 3000+,but I guess they scaled it down,and Kratos fought and dominated Zeus twice,and Zeus entire combat system is based on lightning and magic,implying that Kratos somehow managed to get through all of that without having the appropriate reflexes is preposterous. Raiden is subsonic according to OBD standards ,and has incredible immunity to lightning,and that isn't enough to beat K-MaN.
> 
> And he actually deflected an Lightning Arc from Zeus in a QTE, so that further supports an argument to this bullshit.



your Poseidon set has me interested, this is game art I imagine


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## Nevermind (Mar 14, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> We always assume a instant means a second, its how many calcs are done in the OBD. Its a fair and logical assumption, unless we have evidence otherwise.



Depends, really. Would help if we had a visual.


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## Tsubori (Mar 14, 2013)

I'm trying to get this calc done, but it'll be frustrating as fuck. Raiden is certainly not a weak character.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 14, 2013)

There's not any visuals because it comes from the novel.

Still, going from egypt to mount olympus in an "instant" is Massively Hypersonic to a reasonable degree even without a concrete calc.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> It's not downplay if we have nothing quantifiable to work with. Show me some valid calcs, and I'll gladly concede. It's just that the evidence you've put forward so far is either of questionable canonicity, or has only assumptions backing it.



Calcs are not the end all be all, this argument is completely retarded. Theoretically someone vaporizes a planet, I don't know how much energy it took, therefore its unquantifiable so he can't hurt someone with island level durability. 




> r
> Do you put as much power as you can into squashing a bug? Because that's literally all Kratos amounts to in front of Atlas.



You can't compare Kratos to a bug, to Atlas Kratos was still the God of War and Zeus son, why wouldn't he put as much force as he could?



> Again, soulfuck is not a strength feat. Any kind of resistance to soulfuck in this case would fall under soulfuck resistance, not strength or durability.



It is strength based, this is not typical soul fuck. Hades has to latch on using his chains and he starts pulling the soul out, anyone can simple grab the chains or soul and start pulling back, making it a tug of war, which Hades was overpowering Cronos(who's feat alone is enough for this).





> Again, he can be hurt by arrows and rocks in the games. Not seeing how it's inconsistent.



All low end outliers, more game mechanics so Kratos isn't unstoppable. Kratos has shown that he is consistently on the level of the Gods and Titans. If rocks and arrows could seriously hurt him he wouldn't be capable of fighting against the gods who would one shot Kratos.




> Off the top of my head? He could have made a fist and crushed him in the palm of his hand, he could've shoved him in his mouth and chewed on him, or he could have just dropped him from a height which I'm pretty sure would kill him.



Point taken




> You don't get what I mean. We have enough evidence to believe that the geography of the GoW Earth is radically different from that of the actual Earth, meaning any attempt to scale the two of them is going to be radically flawed. If we didn't have any reason not to believe that this Earth was just a flatter version of our own, it'd be a different story. But what we're given in in-game material suggests a fantasy Earth, one which can't be scaled to ours without something getting lost in translation.



Its based on Greek mythology which is still based on the Earth in the past and flat. Egypt is still where Egypt is, Athens is still in Athens, the Earth being flat just makes the distance shorter, or maybe not.


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## Cypher0120 (Mar 15, 2013)

God of War 2 novel ?feats.?


> *Pg. 24*
> As he turned, an arrow penetrated his armor. He felt the arrowhead?s prick, reached to the back and grabbed the shaft. With a jerk, he pulled it free.  The armor had saved him from more than a tiny cut ? but half a dozen more arrows whistled past him. With blades swinging in a wall before him, he deflected several and found the source of so much severed death


Pretty weak god armor if it can be pierced by arrows from Rhode infantry.


> *Pg. 25*
> The stone floor shattered, and the shock waves knocked the tight knot of soldiers off their feet.
> Every impact tore up more of the stone walkway and sent shards flying in all directions like deadly missiles. One long sliver of stone penetrated Kratos? armor and pricked his skin. He yanked it out. The needle-sharp tip was red with his blood. With a mighty heave, Kratos threw it at the Colossus, only to watch it bounce harmlessly off the metal chest.


Recap, the shards from the stone walkway were enough to pierce through Kratos and I highly doubt that the energy output from each shard is city-block level or more.


> *Pg. 27*
> Kratos let out a bellow of pain as the Colossus squeezed and the fingers came down atop him. Only the small amount of bronze cut from the finger saved him. Rough edges tore at his body, but he fit through the hole he had hacked and came out atop the fist.
> (x)
> The bowstring was only half pulled back. Kratos grabbed the winch and put his full strength to drawing the bow string taut. This was normally a job for four men but Kratos was up to it. Muscles bulged on his powerful arms and rippled across his back as he worked.


Oh yeah, really massive strength feat there?.


> *Pg. 47*
> The sword began to draw out his godhood.  The world spun and he felt his belly knot violently. He would have puked had there been anything in his stomach. His muscles quaked and weakness seized him. His strength was now that of the Kratos of old, the Kratos who had been Ares? lackey ? but also the Kratos who had slain a god.


For those who would make the claim that he didn?t have god powers during that time.


> *Pg. 81*


*
Zeus took a step forward, arm cocked back to unleash a lightning bolt, but stayed his hand?.[/QUOTE]
Pretty easy to spot when Zeus is about to use attack someone.



Pg. 149
Intent on killing the one he had kicked, he neglected to look behind. Fierce jaws clamped on his shoulder and lifted him from his feet. Dangling from the thrashing jaws so all he could see was the dome above the chamber, he began anticipating which way the jaws would toss him in an attempt to rip out his shoulder blades.
[x]
He spun in the other direction to avoid a second fireball, but this one came closer and raked his back, burning the bite wounds the hound had inflicted in his shoulder.
		
Click to expand...

Again, hitting Kratos with something sharp is much better than using blunt force trauma.



Pg. 174
The statue in the barred room held what he thought necessary to continue his quest to reach the Sisters of Fate, and he was being locked out.
[x]
But the magicks within him stirred, fed by the Cronos Rage and yet not blasting forth the destroying energy. Rather, one magic fed the other. He looked up at the distant statue. This time, he did not attempt to run forward and reach the rapidly rising hands. He held out the Amulet of the Fates. It vibrated and turned warm, and then he felt as if he had been plunged into some netherworld.
The room turned a green reminiscent of the angry ocean, and movements all around were slow, as if everything floated in honey. His movements were precise, easy.
		
Click to expand...

Very useful in that room, remember this for later.



Pg. 191
?Peace,? snorted Poseidon. He spat seaweed onto the floor and squeezed out his dripping beard before going on. ?The mortal philosopher Plato said it too well. ?Only the dead have seen the end of war.? I find an invader challenging my rule of the sea.?
		
Click to expand...

Plato, huh? So God of War takes place after 424/423 BC ? 348/347 BC then? There is no massive mountain comparable to Olympus at that time. The geography is definitely different so calculations between assumed distances are null and void.



Pg. 208
Kratos felt a sharp pain across his shoulder as the skeleton?s sword cut at him.
		
Click to expand...

Again, injured by a sharp object.



Pg. 219
His arm had lost circulation before. Now his entire body did. A moment of panic passed as he realized he was encased in stone, not turned to stone.
[x]
The gaze had bathed him in hideous transforming green light. Kratos crashed to the ground, solid from the Gorgon Assassin?s glance.
Luck kept many a warrior alive. So it was with Kratos now. He had landed heavily on a rock in the swampy path. The rock cracked the casing around him and once more afforded him a way of breaking free. Shards flew in all directions, but another stone imprisonment could spell his end.
		
Click to expand...

Yeah, not transmutation there. 



Pg. 237
The sting in his hands told him that if the blow from the powerful tail had connected, he would have been broken into small pieces.
		
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Uh yeah, just against Euryale.



Pg. 252
The hero?s disappearance under the helment did nothing to slow Kratos? reaction as a rock suddenly appeared, flying directly at his head. He twisted aside violently, the sharp stone whizzing past his face to crash into the door behind him. The stone had been hurled with such force that it remained embedded in the bronze door.
		
Click to expand...

Probably the best chance of a quantifiable reaction feat for Kratos.



Pg. 267
His breath gusted from his lungs under the tremendous pressure of Atlas? fingers closing. It took all his own effort to force his hands into the thumb and finger to keep apart the deadly vise. Despite his own superhuman strength, he was as weak as a mewling baby in the Titan?s grip. 
Atlas laughed harshly and shook his head in mock sorrow.
Blackness stalked Kratos? senses; tiny tendrils of deadly darkness crept up on him from all sides. The effort of holding apart the Titan?s digits sapped his strength. If he flagged for even an instant, he would be crushed like a bug, then discarded with no further thought. His arms began to lose feeling from the pressure as his strength faded. Aware that Atlas lifted him back to eye level and peered more closely at him, Kratos fought away ultimate blackness.
?And how do you plan to defeat the King of the Gods?? The question lacked the mockery of Atlas? earlier words and showed that Kratos had intrigued him ? enough not to smash him like an insect in his stark grip. Yet.
		
Click to expand...

Atlas was not trying to kill him at all. Hell later on it?s revealed that Gaia already told Atlas about Kratos. He was being toyed with in his grip so you can?t make the bullshit claim that Atlas was doing an
Probably the best chance of a quantifiable reaction feat for Kratos.



Pg. 267
His breath gusted from his lungs under the tremendous pressure of Atlas? fingers closing. It took all his own effort to force his hands into the thumb and finger to keep apart the deadly vise. Despite his own superhuman strength, he was as weak as a mewling baby in the Titan?s grip. 
Atlas laughed harshly and shook his head in mock sorrow.
Blackness stalked Kratos? senses; tiny tendrils of deadly darkness crept up on him from all sides. The effort of holding apart the Titan?s digits sapped his strength. If he flagged for even an instant, he would be crushed like a bug, then discarded with no further thought. His arms began to lose feeling from the pressure as his strength faded. Aware that Atlas lifted him back to eye level and peered more closely at him, Kratos fought away ultimate blackness.
?And how do you plan to defeat the King of the Gods?? The question lacked the mockery of Atlas? earlier words and showed that Kratos had intrigued him ? enough not to smash him like an insect in his stark grip. Yet.
		
Click to expand...

Atlas was not trying to kill him at all. Hell later on it?s revealed that Gaia already told Atlas about Kratos. He was being toyed with in his grip so you can?t make the bullshit claim that Atlas was doing any form of exertion to kill him then.



Pg. 272
Kratos closed his eyes and fought to gain control of the power. He saw how it differed from the magic given him by the other titan, how it suffused his limbs with a palsy and then how it rushed out from hands and feet. He appreciated this. Atlas, with four limbs, directed his power from each hand. A bipedal mortal had to improvise. Hands and feet would be the conduit.
		
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Hands and feet are the conduit for this new magic he gained from Atlas, giving him unknown level of strength in those limbs yet?.



Pg. 283
The two soldiers attacked in unison. As one axe rose to lop off Kratos? head, his comrade?s axe dove for Kratos? knees. Only an agile twist and leap in the air saved the Spartan from losing either a leg or his head.
		
Click to expand...

Again, simple people with an axe have the potential to kill him.



Pg. 307
Fires raged, fires Zeus caused by plucking lightning bolts from the sky and hurling them into the city.
		
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So?. What do we see here? The cloud to earth lightning is first being taken by Zeus, and then Zeus has to physically throw the attack. Let?s put it the opposite way in the first novel then. That lightning from Greece to Egypt, why can?t it have been caused by Zeus hurling his magical lightning into the sky and then that triggered the actual lightning bolt? Either way, direct bolts from Zeus are going to be easily aim-dodged. ?Hurling and Throwing? are very different from just flicking forwards with his fingers.



Pg. 328
Kratos used the Amulet of the Fates to slow time. He ran to the second mirror where Atropos seemed stuck halfway through and swung his hammer, smashing the glass to shards.
		
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You?d think this would be a good feat of a time slow. But again?



			Held by Atropos, he could not avoid Lakhesis? staff ? and death. 
At the last possible instant, he used the amulet of the fates, drawing power from resolve and hatred deep within, froze time for a heartbeat, levered himself free of Atropos? steely fingers, and released the spell.
		
Click to expand...

Amulet of Fates when used outside its intended purpose lasts only a heartbeat. He uses it twice more after this but again, they don?t last long. Not like it matters, he loses all his artifacts in God of War 3 anyways.



Pg. 343
Golden nimbuses of lightning enveloped Zeus? hands, then he slammed his fists down on the rocky mountaintop. The curtain of energy raced across to sweep Kratos backward.
With the Blade of Olympus held aloft, he deflected the worst of the energy storm.
		
Click to expand...

So? where?s the lightning timing?*


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## Cypher0120 (Mar 15, 2013)

> *Pg. 344*
> Zeus threw a thunderbolt and was rocked back when Kratos used the Golden Fleece to turn it back on its user.


Again, notice the wording. Threw a Thunderbolt. Kratos was already goading Zeus further on at this point and was expecting an attack like that.


> More than once, judicious use of the wings of Icarus kept Kratos from being incinerated by the thunderbolts Zeus hurled.


Hurled again. Attacks easy to prepare for.



And…. That’s about all the major ‘feats’ I’ve gathered from the book. Some new things, most are things that disprove other claims.

You know what? Fuck this. I'm certain that most of you people are still going to be wanking Kratos despite whatever information's being given. I'm leaving this site.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Mar 15, 2013)

Cypher0120 said:


> And?. That?s about all the major ?feats? I?ve gathered from the book. Some new things, most are things that disprove other claims.



Never even touched the games and I can tell you're nitpicking low end showings from one source alone.

Are you genuinely stupid enough to believe a fucker that fucks with the greek pantheon is lower end superhuman?

Ignoring that?

Hell, just the sheer size of shit I've seen browsing the wiki briefly requires the fucker be well above your horrendous downplay 



> You know what? Fuck this. I'm certain that most of you people are still going to be wanking Kratos despite whatever information's being given. I'm leaving this site.



Bye, you'll be be missed as a valued contributer chuckles :33


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 15, 2013)

Cypher I can understand what you are saying but this is ridiculous,the novel feats can be useful for explanations not made in the game and what not but the the games>novel feats that are direct or comparable. In III actually Kratos reacted to block two of Zeus's Lightning Bolts while they were in mid-air.One was with Gaia,and the second was Astral form.Then there is the ad that was made by Santa Monica who is heavily intertwined with the story and the games itself.Vanderman tends to write some inconsistent things in the novel


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## Ulti (Mar 15, 2013)

> You know what? Fuck this. I'm certain that most of you people are still going to be wanking Kratos despite whatever information's being given. I'm leaving this site.



And nothing of value was lost.

You're cherry picking low end feats, from something which isn't even primary canon too. We have interpretations from the second game, that is the primary canon. Kratos has consistently shown the ability to manhandle massive monsters, Gods and Titans.

Your argument is utterly pathetic.


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## Naruto (Mar 15, 2013)

Is Raiden faster than Hermes?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 15, 2013)

Does hermes have any good speed feats?


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## Naruto (Mar 15, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycC7rDmKI3E[/YOUTUBE]

The fight gives you a general idea of Kratos' speed limitations, IMO.

I do not think dodging Zeus' thunderbolts is quite the same as dodging real lightning. So Kratos is likely to be significantly slower than Raiden. On the other hand, I also don't think Kratos is slower than, say, the final boss of MGRR, who managed to pound Raiden a lot. And I'm fairly certain Kratos is a *lot* stronger than the former.

So basically I don't think speed will be a determining factor here. I think Raiden's blade is the real issue.

If Kratos had access to artifacts of power he would win by a landslide though.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Mar 15, 2013)

don't see anything extremely good there.


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## Nevermind (Mar 15, 2013)

Does Kratos get the Medusa head?


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

No he doesn't. And what proof do we have that the HF sword won't just bisect Kratos' swords and rape his face?


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

Not much, considering that speed feat is still iffy, and we still have no good values or ratings for his durability, considering the durability feats brought up here are extremely hard to quantify at best.


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah, Raiden's a bit easier to quantify. He took a pretty savage beating from Armstrong, who has ridiculous strength, as well as the pain inhibitors.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> Not much, considering that speed feat is still iffy, and we still have no good values or ratings for his durability, considering the durability feats brought up here are extremely hard to quantify at best.



The Sheer difference in strength is enough, the HF blade is either going to snap or bounce off him. We have already established that Kratos durability has to at least match his is strength or else he would be breaking himself every time he did something. Cronos is carrying a 1km tall mountain/temple on top of him being over 800m tall himself and we already know Hades overpowered Cronos, which Kratos overpowered Hades.

Raiden doesn't have anything that compares.


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

Guh. This debate makes me sad. I'm squeezed between lowballers and fanwankers.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

Who is fanwanking?

Anyways, depending if I am using the giantess calculator right, Cronos would run at mach 6.7 a minimum, a solid hypersonic feat.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Tsubori said:


> No he doesn't. And what proof do we have that the HF sword won't just bisect Kratos' swords and rape his face?



If you're talking about the Blades of Athena... no.


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

[YOUTUBE]U-DJubFFFS8[/YOUTUBE]

What part of this even begins to suggest he physically overpowered Hades? If you're referring to the scene where he pulled out his soul, remember that Hades was severely weakened at that point, not to mention in a lot of pain, and I think blind. Plus, it doesn't even look like he tried to resist. Not to mention the fact that all of the damage inflicted in this fight was done with enchanted weaponry, not raw physical strength. Same goes for how he killed Cronos. The only notable strength feat from that fight was, again, not being crushed. And the part where Cronos smacked him with his palm he didn't even resist, he would've been crushed if he hadn't inflicted noticeable pain on him using the Blade of Olympus. Also, you are severely kidding yourself if you think that Cronos is a km tall, much less that temple he's carrying on his back. 

But whatever. I'm not going to partake in this conversation anymore until we can get some solid numbers for GoW. Right now, all I'm seeing are vague and shakily founded assumptions along with equally shaky powerscaling, and no real proof that Kratos can do half the shit you suggest he can. So if you want to call this Kratos' win, that's fine. But I'd highly suggest that someone do some calcs before this shit is brought up again.


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

That mach 6.7 feat. Let's see the calc. I could just say "If I'm calculating this right.... Raiden runs mach 17,785." But unless I show the calc, it means nothing. Proof plox.


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

It wouldn't really matter anyway, because Raiden is easily faster than Gray Fox, who was deflecting full auto fire from a FAMAS at point blank range in Twin Snakes,


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## Shiba D. Inu (Mar 15, 2013)

reacting to a Mach 6 giant doesn't make you Mach 6 too

since he's a giant 

I think


double check with Chaos


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

This also brings up the question of surface area...


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Mach 8? Thought MGS characters were mach 6.7 at most with Old Snake dodging Railgun fire?


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> That mach 6.7 feat. Let's see the calc. I could just say "If I'm calculating this right.... Raiden runs mach 17,785." But unless I show the calc, it means nothing. Proof plox.



I only have had it in a blog since last night.







> What part of this even begins to suggest he physically overpowered Hades?



6:00, when Hades and Kratos got their chains tied up, then Kratos knocks Hades down and then pulls him up to the ceiling. Though it can be interpreted that because Hades grabbed the chains doesn't mean he was pulling. Still during that tug-of war, if Kratos wasn't in the same class of strenght then Hades could have easily pull him in.



> Also, you are severely kidding yourself if you think that Cronos is a km tall, much less that temple he's carrying on his back.




I was suppressed he wasn't taller, you have neither played the games or you are just delusional.




> But whatever. I'm not going to partake in this conversation anymore until we can get some solid numbers for GoW. Right now, all I'm seeing are vague and shakily founded assumptions along with equally shaky powerscaling, and no real proof that Kratos can do half the shit you suggest he can. So if you want to call this Kratos' win, that's fine. But I'd highly suggest that someone do some calcs before this shit is brought up again.



If you want a calc, look at my blog, I'm starting to work on God of War calcs because of this thread.



> reacting to a Mach 6 giant doesn't make you Mach 6 too



I'm more thinking of Hermes, who is supposed to be the fastest of the gods, which while Kratos did have trouble fighting, he eventually did kill him and cut his legs off and took his boots which gave Kratos the speed of Hermes.


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I only have had it in a blog since last night.



Thank you.



Xiammes said:


> 6:00, when Hades and Kratos got their chains tied up, then Kratos knocks Hades down and then pulls him up to the ceiling. Though it can be interpreted that because Hades grabbed the chains doesn't mean he was pulling. Still during that tug-of war, if Kratos wasn't in the same class of strenght then Hades could have easily pull him in.



Except Hades was off the ground, so he couldn't have pulled Kratos in if he wanted to. Besides, he was trying to pull the chains off his neck, not pull down on the chain that was lifting him to the ceiling, so this whole point is moot. It's not so much that Kratos is as strong as Hades, more just that Hades is an idiot. If anything, a good way to calc his strength would be seeing how much it would take to lift Hades like that, since it appears it took him some effort to do so.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Doesn't Kratos also beat down Zeus, who should be as strong if not stronger than Hades?


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> It's not so much that Kratos is as strong as Hades, more just that Hades is an idiot. If anything, a good way to calc his strength would be seeing how much it would take to lift Hades like that, since it appears it took him some effort to do so



So how does a tug of war make Hades a idiot? Kratos has better feats of his own then what it took to lift Hades.


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## MAPSK (Mar 15, 2013)

He's an idiot because he tried pulling at the chains on his neck and not the one dragging him up. Pulling at the chains on your neck will do next to nothing in a situation like that.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

I was talking about before when when they had their chains tied up when it was a tug of war match.


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## willyvereb (Mar 15, 2013)

Well, Raiden has feats of cutting things up before these could freefall a millimeter.
He's most likely solidly in the hypersonic+ range.
And actually, so does his movement speed.
At least for short bursts.
Mistral can perform a quick jump while Raiden is in Blade Mode.
The same mode which makes you perceive time so slow that it takes long seconds for an object to fall even a millimeter.
Raiden was keeping up with Mistral.
And so should at least Sam and Armstrong when they use their respective rush moves.


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

Yeah the FAMAS feat was the main look before, but now I think what needs to be found out is how fast Sword mode is. When he beats the exculsus, he rapes it with it's own arm in sword mode, slashing at hypersonic speeds with a weapon that I calced to approximately 501 metric tons. And because he flipped the excelsus suplex style, that means sam, mistral, monsoon, and pretty much anyone who pushes against him physically have to be in that strength range. This makes the cast of MGRR the most absurdly powerful characters in metal gear.


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## willyvereb (Mar 15, 2013)

Wel, I'm not sure about strength.
Raiden actually had to man up a bit before he could contend with Armstrong in blows and deliver punches that can hurt the Senator.
So it's possible that Raiden subtly powered up through the story.

I can't say the same about Raiden's durability, though. So most likely all of the Desperado leaders are capable of harming dudes with city block-multi city block level durability.


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## Tsubori (Mar 15, 2013)

And doesn't the Jack the Ripper persona actually make him even stronger? Could he not just use that mode? THough given that it's a state of mind, I'm not sure it can be used like that.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

So Raiden has the speed advantage with city block level strength?


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 15, 2013)

Kratos did overpower hades,he actually got even bigger throughout the fight as a desperate attempt to beat Kratos.He is also a Masochist and has regenerative abilities.Hell in base he Threw Oceanus down Mount Olympus with ease.And tge Tug of war is what signifies the comparable strength levels.IIRC Kratos also tanked Persephone's Death Blast,which vaporized the section of pillar of the world that the Death Blast Could reach.The thing is well over 400m and is extremely dense due to obvious reasons(Pillar that holds up the world)

Not sure how I could quantify that,but I sure as hell know that all the Skyscrapers in the world couldn't Hold up the crust of the earth,and this was all the way back in Chains of Olympus


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 15, 2013)

And Cronos is a little over 1500ft,he was actually supposed to be bigger but there were technicalities with development.I did a scaling calc,I'll post it later since I am not at the Pc.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Well that does it for me, Kratos gets his hands on Raiden it won't end well for the Cyborg.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> Mach 8? Thought MGS characters were mach 6.7 at most with Old Snake dodging Railgun fire?



Old Snake dodge the railgun from well over a hundred meters, still impressive, but its not the mach 6.7 speed.




> And Cronos is a little over 1500ft,he was actually supposed to be bigger but there were technicalities with development.I did a scaling calc,I'll post it later since I am not at the Pc.



Both of my scaling attempts show that he is well over 500 meters, the latter being 800+ meters. I do believe technical limitations kept Cronos from being bigger, but I just can't say he bigger then what I scaled him too.



> So Raiden has the speed advantage with city block level strength?



Right now a slight speed advantage(not enough to blitz) if we accept Hermes was faster then the Titans.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Old Snake dodge the railgun from well over a hundred meters, still impressive, but its not the mach 6.7 speed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sounds good to me, although I still don't think the speed difference will matter too much, considering it only takes one hit from Kratos to incapacitate Raiden, while I doubt I could say the same for Raiden.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> Sounds good to me, although I still don't think the speed difference will matter too much, considering it only takes one hit from Kratos to incapacitate Raiden, while I doubt I could say the same for Raiden.



We are talking about a strength difference at least in the thousands range. From the standard 10m you need to be 10 times faster to blitz. Again this depends if we accept Hermes is faster then the Titans, I am not saying anything else about speed difference's till I get a general consensus.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> We are talking about a strength difference at least in the thousands range. From the standard 10m you need to be 10 times faster to blitz. Again this depends if we accept Hermes is faster then the Titans, I am not saying anything else about speed difference's till I get a general consensus.



Raiden will probably only be in the low double digits in terms of speed, probably 2-3 times faster if the speed for Kratos et al is accepted. 

Props for doing calcs for Kratos though, must be a ballache lol


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> Props for doing calcs for Kratos though, must be a ballache lol



Thing is I like the MGS series more then the GoW series, I just can't stand downplay.


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## firekioken (Mar 15, 2013)

Someone said that Raiden sword wont be able to hurt Kratos. You should check the description of Raiden sword in the Rising game, it states that Raiden sword is an High Frequency Blade that its able to weaken the links on atoms to cut easier. Plus Raiden is also able to channel lightning into the blade. Also there is an diferent dinamic in hurting/punching things and just "cutting/slicing things" and Raiden falls in the latter specially in Rising


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## Ulti (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Thing is I like the MGS series more then the GoW series, I just can't stand downplay.



Same with me really, I'm a massive Metal Gear fan and apathetic to God of War, I just hate this downplay.

You guys could be downplaying fucking Bleach for all I care and I'd argue against it.


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## Redterror (Mar 15, 2013)

Nah the energy in piercing attacks is the same as non-piercing it's just that the surface area in piercing and cutting attacks is concentrated in a specific area while 'blunt' is just spread around evenly. Both are equally as dangerous in the right situations.

As for the HF blade, it still needs the strength behind it to do damage doesn't it?


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## firekioken (Mar 15, 2013)

What streight if it cuts like butter if raiden applies streingth it shoud be even more powerfull. What Im trying to say is that even if this does not convince you, you should at least accept that the blade sould be able to actually hurt Kratos and that this fight is not a mismatch, it pretty even


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> Someone said that Raiden sword wont be able to hurt Kratos. You should check the description of Raiden sword in the Rising game, it states that Raiden sword is an High Frequency Blade that its able to weaken the links on atoms to cut easier. Plus Raiden is also able to channel lightning into the blade. Also there is an diferent dinamic in hurting/punching things and just "cutting/slicing things" and Raiden falls in the latter specially in Rising



We are talking about the difference in durability and offensive power thousands of times over. It may cut easier, but its not going to make up that huge of difference.



> Same with me really, I'm a massive Metal Gear fan and apathetic to God of War, I just hate this downplay.



I like the God of War series, but I am a really big Metal Gear fan.

Downplay is worse then wank.


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## willyvereb (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> We are talking about the difference in durability and offensive power thousands of times over. It may cut easier, but its not going to make up that huge of difference.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It actually will.
If we're using ChaosTheory's rule of thumb regarding piercing/slashing attacks, a slash with the same energy would overcome durability 1000 times greater than its actual power.

Albeit I use a modified version because I did some intensity calcs before and most of the time it showed increase between 100 to 1000 times.
But Raiden's HF Blade would obviously be closer to the high end.

So yeah, if the difference is really about 1000 times then Raiden has a way to overcome that.
Provided his physical blows are in the same league as Armstrong's and now he's using a blade.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

> It actually will.
> If we're using ChaosTheory's rule of thumb regarding piercing/slashing attacks, a slash with the same energy would overcome durability 1000 times greater than its actual power.



I remember ChaosTheory's rule of thumb being a lot smaller. What did you modify.


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## willyvereb (Mar 15, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> I remember ChaosTheory's rule of thumb being a lot smaller. What did you modify.


Nothing at all in that part.
If anything , my modified assumption is a bit lower than Chaos'.

According to Chaos' rule of thumb, the threat of slashing attacks equal +1 DC category compared to what their energy would imply.

The difference between high end multi city block and town level is the order of 3 magnitudes.
Same for town and city level.
Or between city and island level.
And so on.
There's a reason why we generally associate kilotons with town level destruction while megatons warrant city level.


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## Nevermind (Mar 15, 2013)

That's a thing that's pretty constant until you get up to star level.

tons- building to city block level
kilotons- town level
megatons- city level
gigatons- island level
teratons- country level
petatons- continent level
exatons- moon-small planet level
zettatons- planet level
yottatons- large planet level

It then takes two orders of magnitude to jump to star level.


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## Xiammes (Mar 15, 2013)

Allrighty then, I guess I will have to wait till someone finds the volume/weight of the Temple/Mountain on Cronos back.


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## Tsubori (Mar 16, 2013)

And wait, what can we apply with the Excelsus suplex feat? That's GOTTA be high end, and that was with his hands. Add in the fact that Raiden can move at ((Likely)) Supersonic or hypersonic speeds, slashing with a 500 ton blade. If the force of a swing is one thing, it's much higher when swung that fast.


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## Xiammes (Mar 16, 2013)

.


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## Tsubori (Mar 16, 2013)

On what grounds are you completely disregarding my Calc?


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## Xiammes (Mar 16, 2013)

Not disregarding your calc, I am saying you can't use two calculated numbers(the strength and speed feat) together for another calc.

If we did, I could get some crazy numbers for Cronos running around at mach 6.7


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## Tsubori (Mar 16, 2013)

Problem is that the two are directly correlated. For Raiden's swinging power, we can look at how much the Excelsus arm weighs, which is a calc.


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## willyvereb (Mar 16, 2013)

Xiammes said:


> Not disregarding your calc, I am saying you can't use two calculated numbers(the strength and speed feat) together for another calc.
> 
> If we did, I could get some crazy numbers for Cronos running around at mach 6.7


Well, the difference is that both parts of this calc originate from the very same feat.
Raiden swings a heavy 30m tall sword in Blade Mode (thus making it potentially hypersonic in speed, depending on the shown effects).

Albeit I'm not sure in the reliability of KE calcs for destructive capacity.
Well, it's still better than using powerscaling from Armstrong and apply it for his swinging power.


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## Xiammes (Mar 16, 2013)

> Well, the difference is that both parts of this calc originate from the very same feat.



The same wouldn't apply to my calc? I get the speed, mass from scaling Cronos.

The KE of Cronos running without the temple on his back would be 3.3404159621142 mt


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## Rance (Mar 16, 2013)

Are they in character?

Well, Kratos is Greek. And a Spartan of all things.

Raiden is an androgynous young man with smooth features and a beautifully ass. He also hails from a series where every single character character motivation stems from their repressed homosexuality. I'm not saying that Raiden will easily be seduced by the killer of gods. He likes it rough. Kratos is going to have to work for it. But ultimately Kratos will leave Raiden beaten up and bloody with him bend over his throbbing manhood.

If cocklust doesn't beat Raiden. Kratos will. Just based on his track record.

That is all I have to say about that.

Although Raiden may have a speed advantage. But that's hardly beneficial given the circumstances.


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## Navy Scribe (Mar 16, 2013)

Nah but Raiden has a cool character design IMO.


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## Lucaniel (Mar 16, 2013)

Rance said:


> Are they in character?
> 
> Well, Kratos is Greek. And a Spartan of all things.
> 
> ...



doesn't god of war have some controversial threesome scene with kratos and two other women?

kinda dubious


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## Orochimaru800 (Mar 16, 2013)

Why the hell was Lucaniel banned?


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## DemongGodOfChaos (Mar 17, 2013)

Kratos can do some pretty insane stuff even before GOW 1.

Here's hsi final fight with the furies for instance:


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