# Itachi vs Shikamaru [intelligence]



## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

So what intelligence stuff does Shikamaru have that competes with?


*Spoiler*: _Planning_ 











*Spoiler*: _Analysis_


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## Psp123789 (Jan 13, 2014)

I dunno. Maybe when he went up against hidan and temari. He showed some skill there.


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## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

You forgot figuring out shared vision while saving B & Naruto which took a few panels at most. Jiraiya and two Sages took over a chapter to completely grasp the mechanics and Jiraiya has a high intelligence DB score and combined the three have 50+ years of combat experience plus they weren't forced to save anyone. In terms of planning they are equal, but in terms of on-the-fly insight and tactics, Itachi wipes the floor with this pansy


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Oh yeah, I'll add that. There was a lot I excluded because Shikamaru's purely planning and analytical intelligence. 

Itachi somehow invented a way for a crow (with a non-Uchiha body) to have the Sharingan on forever and use Mangekyō techniques, which is just ridiculous medical/genetic achievement.

He also invented those trap fūinjutsu techniques that Obito didn't know, and was able to quickly find legendary items Orochimaru spent his life looking for yet could never find.

As a child, he didn't have to be taught as a child, mastered dōjutsu, had a Hokage's wisdom, etc. No other character really comes close to him in overall intelligence feats or hype.

​


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## Jagger (Jan 13, 2014)

I've always found Itachi's intelligence to be overrated.

But, I can't deny he isn't a wise person that just made the wrong decisions (trying to take care of his issue with Sasuke by his own just lead his younger brother to even more hatred he already had within his heart).


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## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

Or Kakashi's for that matter?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Jagger, what part of Shikamaru's feats makes him not overrated in your opinion?​


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> So what intelligence stuff does Shikamaru have that competes with?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Planning_
> ...



Madara was just talking out of his ass to get Sasuke to doubt Itachi's intentions.  He would have said anything!  This should be evident by the fact that what he said made no sense!  Think about it, how would Itachi know his contingency plans?  Magic 8 ball?!


Shikamaru's fight with Temari, and Kakuzu/Hidan were infinitely more impressive from an intellectual stand point.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 13, 2014)

The best way to describe it is: if they were to play a game of Chess or Shōgi, Shikamaru would be the victor. He is known for his very well thought out strategies, as they are what lead him to his victory over Hidan and Temari. But when he has to think on the fly, he simply does not have the tools to beat opponents like Itachi does, nor does he have the skill and finesse in battle. Plus, like you said, Itachi can be quite creative with his moveset.

Basically, Shikamaru has the intelligence, but lacks the power to make it the utmost effective like Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Shenanigans said:


> Shikamaru's fight with Temari, and Kakuzu/Hidan were infinitely more impressive from an intellectual stand point.



More impressive than calculating every contigency in battle and carefully reaching his desired conclusion? Then having a contigency (Amaterasu) and a contigency (Koto) for the contigency?

I don't think outsmarting Hidan or p1 Temari is anywhere near that level of planning, and I'm pretty sure if you went back and reread what Shikamaru did, you wouldn't think so either.​


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## Ersa (Jan 13, 2014)

For a Genin his level of intelligence and planning was outstanding but compared to Kages and Jounins? Not even close.

Most of his Part II feats come from his opponents being retarded (Hidan) and careful planning beforehand. Shikamaru is smart no doubt but he lacks the battle smarts Kakashi and Itachi have. They weave thinking and analysis in with clones, plans and MS nukes.


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2014)

Kyokan said:


> You forgot figuring out shared vision while saving B & Naruto which took a few panels at most. Jiraiya and two Sages took over a chapter to completely grasp the mechanics and Jiraiya has a high intelligence DB score and combined the three have 50+ years of combat experience plus they weren't forced to save anyone. In terms of planning they are equal, but in terms of on-the-fly insight and tactics, Itachi wipes the floor with this pansy



1- Itachi was with the Akatsuki for like 10 years or more. 
(Yet, he couldn't know about obito's Kamui, unlike Konan)

2- Against Jiraiya that was the first time Kishi showed Pain and his abilities, so obviously he'll
take more time to explain it to us, while against Nagato, we already know the paths and how it 
works. Therefore, there was no reason to explain it in details.  

I think this is obvious, sine it's the case for everything! 
Perhaps, the next example would be the Juubi soon, or do you think if madara sealed the Bijuu
that it would take the GM like 30+ chapter to complete, or that Kishi will spends chapters upon
chapter to make the SA know about the Juubi's host weakness again?


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> More impressive than calculating every contigency in battle and carefully reaching his desired conclusion? Then having a contigency (Amaterasu) and a contigency (Koto) for the contigency?
> 
> I don't think outsmarting Hidan or p1 Temari is anywhere near that level of planning, and I'm pretty sure if you went back and reread what Shikamaru did, you wouldn't think so either.​



As I said, that doesn't even make sense!  He didn't know anything about Sasuke's abilities!

Madara was blowing hot air, to win over Sasuke.



Elia said:


> 1- Itachi was with the Akatsuki for like 10 years or more.
> (Yet, he couldn't know about obito's Kamui, unlike Konan)
> 
> 2- Against Jiraiya that was the first time Kishi showed Pain and his abilities, so obviously he'll
> ...


Why do people assume more panels = more time?  Horrible assumption!


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## Jagger (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Jagger, what part of Shikamaru's feats makes him not overrated in your opinion?​


I never said Shikamaru completely rolfstomps. Just trying to give an opinion about the general consesus that most of people on this site have reached about the level of intelligence of this character.

I never said he wasn't a wise nor a very insightful person, just that he isn't simply the Albert Einstein of this manga.

Moving on from that, Shikamaru realistically should be much smarter than he is normally shown in the series. Why? Because his IQ is 200 in the first place. Most of his strategies are solid, but it isn't something mind-blowing some people even on this forums wouldn't be able to achieve in the first palce. Does that translates into the fact they all possesses an IQ over 200 or around such high number? No, they don't. Do you want to know why? Because Kishimoto isn't a genius in the first place. He isn't capable of generating complex plans at the level of those whose IQ is 200. It is as simple as that.

This is just my opinion regarding Shikamaru's level of intelligence. But, you're probably going to pull out that panel of Obito saying Itachi never ceased to amaze him. 

Regarding Minato...I don't know what the fuck is wrong with his brain nowadays.


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## Jagger (Jan 13, 2014)

Also. Base Jiraiya > Itachi in this field.

He was a very insightful man that knew Naruto would be one destined to overcome this great evil known as pain and suffering.

In fact. Base Jiraiya > Itachi in every single ninja skill out there.

u mad, Strategoob?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Elia said:


> 1- Itachi was with the Akatsuki for like 10 years or more.
> (Yet, he couldn't know about obito's Kamui, unlike Konan)



Obito said pointblank that this was because he was super cautious around Itachi.

i.e. he was afraid and stayed clear of Itachi, unlike Konan.



Elia said:


> 2- Against Jiraiya that was the first time Kishi showed Pain and his abilities, so obviously he'll
> take more time to explain it to us, while against Nagato, we already know the paths and how it
> works. Therefore, there was no reason to explain it in details.



Poor excuse IMO.

Kishi could have had Naruto warn Itachi, but he didn't.



> Also. Base Jiraiya > Itachi in this field.
> 
> He was a very insightful man that knew Naruto would be one destined to overcome this great evil known as pain and suffering.



You need to reread that chapter, bro. 

Jiraiya was repeatedly trying to fulfill a stoned animal's prophecy.

Dat genius.


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Obito said pointblank that this was because he was super cautious around Itachi.
> 
> i.e. he was afraid and stayed clear of Itachi, unlike Konan.
> 
> ...



Because, he knew he couldn't trust him, unlike nagato and konan, not because he was scared.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Jagger said:


> I never said Shikamaru completely rolfstomps. Just trying to give an opinion about the general consesus that most of people on this site have reached about the level of intelligence of this character.
> 
> I never said he wasn't a wise nor a very insightful person, just that he isn't simply the Albert Einstein of this manga.



Alber Einstein had to be taught as a child.

Nor was Albert Einstein thinking like a president as a child.



Jagger said:


> Moving on from that, Shikamaru realistically should be much smarter than he is normally shown in the series. Why? Because his IQ is 200 in the first place.



A 200 IQ for a child is not as impressive as a 200 IQ for an adult.

It simply means your mental age is twice your physical age.

Itachi thinking like an adult at age 7 means his IQ was 200+ as well.


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## Trojan (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Obito said pointblank that this was because he was super cautious around Itachi.
> 
> i.e. he was afraid and stayed clear of Itachi, unlike Konan.
> 
> ...



- So, Mr. reading people's souls couldn't read obito's soul? 
- Well, poor or not, that how it is. U_U

Naruto told him about the CT. 
As for the Rinngan, Itachi was with Nagato for an entire day in the war. Also, he was with him
in the Akatsuki for 10 years or more, was not his job to spy on them, or have we forgotten(?) this part now?


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

Shenanigans said:


> Because, he knew he couldn't trust him, unlike nagato and konan, not because he was scared.



He said he would've definitely died if he hadn't kept secrets from Itachi.

That kind of sounds like what a scared little bitch might say.


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## Lace (Jan 13, 2014)

Itachi's got a couple years on Shikamaru. It's hard to compare but in terms of experience I'd say Itachi.


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> He said he would've definitely died if he hadn't kept secrets from Itachi.
> 
> That kind of sounds like what a scared little bitch might say.



He said it was lucky he didn't know everything about him.

Not sure what that meant, do you?  Because, I don't see how anything he did could have killed him via Sasuke's programmed eye.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2014)

No, it probably would have killed Obito if Sasuke hadn't diverted his gaze to Obito's (Zetsu) shoulder. Had the trap burst landed on Obito's eye, as it was designed, Obito would be screwed. 

Luckily, he was hit in his Zetsu shoulder, and as we saw against Torune, Minato, Konan, etc. Obito can easily replace damaged Zetsu parts with his Kamui.​


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## Shenanigans (Jan 13, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> No, it probably would have killed Obito if Sasuke hadn't diverted his gaze to Obito's (Zetsu) shoulder. Had the trap burst landed on Obito's eye, as it was designed, Obito would be screwed.
> 
> Luckily, he was hit in his Zetsu shoulder, and as we saw against Torune, Minato, Konan, etc. Obito can easily replace damaged Zetsu parts with his Kamui.​



Then we are back to not trusting him, rather than being scared of him.  I guess you could argue he was afraid of his secret being revealed.


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## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

There's no doubt that Itachi is extremely intelligent, but I find it funny that some people use him deducing Chibaku Tensei's weakness as some demonstration of unparalleled genius.

Like, the entire thinking process was like: 'Nagato throws ball. Ball attracts stuff. Ball is threat. Attack ball.'


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## Alex Payne (Jan 14, 2014)

CE Shikamaru casually thought up 200 different moves.

In terms of raw intelligence(raw "processing power") current Shikamaru is superior to anyone bar possibly his father. Kishomoto can't properly showcase his intelligence because he sucks with writing smart fights in general.


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## Winchester Gospel (Jan 14, 2014)

"Calculating every contingency" is exactly the sort of thing that would make one skillful at an impromptu game of shogi or chess, or live war strategy itself. Such phrasing isn't any more meaningful than Shikamaru's own suggestion that he had thought to consider another several hundred moves beyond what had already been shown against Temari in just the few moments he spent meditating during their battle. _(Yeah, I wrote this before alex posted...)_

In Itachi's case, it's also dressing things up a bit when you look at what actually happened in his battle step by step: Itachi vs. Sasuke was fundamentally about drawing out someone's chakra and then believably losing to them, and that's not really all that difficult when you were already considerably stronger than them to begin with.

The only real assumptions Itachi had to make were that Sasuke could survive Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu—and he's got good reason to believe that when he can manipulate the potency of his genjutsu and direct his flames towards impermanent extremities, all while possessing enough knowledge of Orochimaru's regenerative capability that he could identify yamata by name—and that Susano'o could trump whatever Orochimaru or Sasuke had that he _couldn't_ plan for—which, again, isn't unreasonable given the strength of Susano'o.

Dōjutsu seem to constantly exhibit an active state when they are transplanted from the original host. I also think it's likely that Kotoamatsukami was cast using the same jutsu with which Itachi manufactured his trap for Obito: tensha fūin, which likely wouldn't require much creative input from the crow itself. It's an impressive technique, but I wouldn't say that it especially stands out against all the other advances in ninjutsu and medicine invented in the series—similarly, I would describe its usage as more thoughtful than ingenious.

Also, it seems more believable to me that the Imperial Regalia were always a part of the Mangekyō and Susano'o—they fit with the theme naming of the other Sharingan techniques, and the interpretation provides an explanation for _why_ Orochimaru wasn't able to find them (perhaps he read of them the way Jiraiya knew of the Rinnegan; in a fairy tale, mythological sort of way, with his searching being based upon his misunderstanding of their nature) while doing away with the somewhat incredulous idea that one can somehow hand off spiritual versions of physical objects to their ghostly summons.

Hiruzen's appraisal of Itachi's childhood wisdom is better though, as it's something that implies fairly high intelligence and can't really be picked apart by a character's smarts being limited to whatever Kishimoto can think up to display them. It's still difficult to make a good comparison on just that basis as there's no way of telling whether Shikamaru _could_ make due had he grown up with his own intellect but the life and circumstances of Itachi. I'll take it over the battle feats though.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2014)

Winchester, why you gotta' cut me like that?

I still think putting a human eyeball in a crow, and not having the bird die of exhastion like Wave Arc Kakashi would after twenty minutes, is by default an awesome feat. 

Maybe Tsunade figured out something similar for Kakashi over the time skip? Dat Itachi. ​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 14, 2014)

Summons can channel the summoner's chakra - see Katsuyu.

Also 



> Crow Clone Technique (烏分身の術, Karasu Bunshin no Jutsu)
> Ninjutsu, C-rank, Supplementary
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> 
> ...



Itachi likely stored his own chakra in that crow. Neat. But not impressive.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2014)

Um, let's think about that for a second, Alex. 

Unless Itachi is Hashirama Senju, then giving the crow chakra to maintain a Sharingan indefinitely with a non-Uchiha body for such a long period of time wouldn't make much sense at all.

And unless you can think of anybody else in the manga, or in real life, who transplanted human organs into a small creature and made it work, then yeah, I'm gonna' say it's impressive.​


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## Alex Payne (Jan 14, 2014)

Crow was sealed inside Naruto. There was no need to maintain Sharingan "indefinitely". Itachi stored his own Uchiha chakra inside his summon. Same chakra that works perfectly with Sharingan. Crow was sealed so chakra usage wasn't needed. 

Transplantation factor wasn't really that impressive either. You think Crow was able to actually use that sharingan? Or see with it? Itachi stored his chakra inside his summon, slapped that eye on it and programmed his trap. User-summon link allows chakra storage, Uchiha-chakra allows MS usage, sealing negates time-limit. 

We are thinking into it deeper than Kishi when he came up with it anyways imo. 

It is neat, that's all. Look at what Orochimaru did with all those chakra storages and transplants. Now that's impressive.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2014)

Winchester Gospel said:


> "Calculating every contingency" is exactly the sort of thing that would make one skillful at an impromptu game of shogi or chess, or live war strategy itself. Such phrasing isn't any more meaningful than Shikamaru's own suggestion that he had thought to consider another several hundred moves beyond what had already been shown against Temari in just the few moments he spent meditating during their battle. _(Yeah, I wrote this before alex posted...)_
> 
> In Itachi's case, it's also dressing things up a bit when you look at what actually happened in his battle step by step: Itachi vs. Sasuke was fundamentally about drawing out someone's chakra and then believably losing to them, and that's not really all that difficult when you were already considerably stronger than them to begin with.
> 
> ...




This is everything I ever wanted to say about Itachi's intellect feats worded in a way I could never say it in.


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## Sans (Jan 14, 2014)

Itachi uses Sharingan precog to counter Shikamaru's chess moves before he makes them.


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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2014)

Komnenos said:


> Itachi uses Sharingan precog to counter Shikamaru's chess moves before he makes them.




Itachi is smart enough to use Sharingan precognition without the Sharingan.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> There's no doubt that Itachi is extremely intelligent, but I find it funny that some people use him deducing Chibaku Tensei's weakness as some demonstration of unparalleled genius.
> 
> Like, the entire thinking process was like: 'Nagato throws ball. Ball attracts stuff. Ball is threat. Attack ball.'



I think deducing CT's weakness is just an indicator on how Itachi's mind works. It surely isn't rocket science, but that shows how a top tier is supposed to act under pressure.
Naruto, despite being exposed to that  technique once before, was just standing there and acting impulsively. B was no different. Those 2 are also powerful shinobi. 

On the side note, what was Shikamaru's best feat ? Analyzing Hidan's technique under pressure ? It surely wasn an impressive feat but do you really need to be a genius to do that ? I think the moment the damage dealt on Hidan reflected on Asuma, it became very apparent.



Winchester Gospel said:


> "Calculating every contingency" is exactly the sort of thing that would make one skillful at an impromptu game of shogi or chess, or live war strategy itself. Such phrasing isn't any more meaningful than Shikamaru's own suggestion that he had thought to consider another several hundred moves beyond what had already been shown against Temari in just the few moments he spent meditating during their battle. _(Yeah, I wrote this before alex posted...)_
> 
> In Itachi's case, it's also dressing things up a bit when you look at what actually happened in his battle step by step: Itachi vs. Sasuke was fundamentally about drawing out someone's chakra and then believably losing to them, and that's not really all that difficult when you were already considerably stronger than them to begin with.
> 
> ...



Makes  you wonder why Itachi is the only one to have the imperial items... 

Itachi was illustrated sitting on a throne, has a golden color Susano'o, has items from the imperial treasure. Itachi has the "King" theme all over. 

In short, Itachi is the King


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## babaGAReeb (Jan 14, 2014)

either of these "geniuses" cant show their genius cause kishi is a moron and doesnt know how to show it


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## Sans (Jan 14, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Itachi is smart enough to use Sharingan precognition without the Sharingan.



He looks within his own soul to discern what he would do with the Sharingan active, then does it.


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## Baroxio (Jan 14, 2014)

alex payne said:


> CE Shikamaru casually thought up 200 different moves.
> 
> In terms of raw intelligence(raw "processing power") current Shikamaru is superior to anyone bar possibly his father. Kishomoto can't properly showcase his intelligence because he sucks with writing smart fights in general.


Part 1 Shikamaru >> Part 2 Shikamaru.

His feats against Temari and Tayuya were _*far *_better shows of genius than anything he's done in Part 2. The Hidan case is particularly egregious, because it took him a long ass time to figure out Hidan's jutsu, and in the end it only amounted to doing a single obvious move--getting him out of his damn circle. That was it. That was what took him all that time to figure out. What the actual fuck.

In their second battle there were numerous times they would all have died were it not for plot. Kakashi himself joining them wasn't even in his plan, and Kakashi was literally the only reason they lasted as long as they did. Unlike Itachi, Shikamaru's attempt to account for his opponent's contingencies resulted in failure. Specifically, the initial ambush failed because he failed to account for Kakuzu's extendo limbs, but it's not like he hadn't seen Kakuzu dettach his limbs in the prior battle. That was a possibility a genius of his old level should have forseen.

But yeah, since then, Shikamaru's plans, while decent compared to everyone else in this battle of DBZ power levels instead of ninja, are lacking compared to his Part 1 version. He's still 200 IQ, but only because the bar for 100 IQ has fallen, IMO.


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## ueharakk (Jan 14, 2014)

Shikamaru's intelligence is greater because he competes with ninjas either above or far above his own abilities and wins with almost pure intellect.

Itachi's isn't because with his MS arsenal he's just flat out stronger than everyone he's solo'd and only beat the one's he hasn't solo'd because of equally powerful or even stronger allies on his side.  

Then there's also the fact that itachi does get tricked by people like Kakashi and the same intelligence hype that kabuto gave him *works against him later in the fight.*

Plus, Itachi didn't literally set up everything in the fight as he had no idea that sasuke had kirin and didn't plan on getting his leg shanked by the exploding shuriken.  Itachi's plan for the sasuke fight consisted of 3 things: exhaust sasuke to the point where Oro came out, implant amaterasu into sasuke's eyes, die by sasuke's hands.  Itachi's MS power is what allowed him to be in full control of the fight, allowing him to erect Susanoo or use amaterasu at any time it looked like he would die before accomplishing the other 2.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2014)

I think Itachi's genjutsu prowess can be directly attributed to his  mental capacity.

Itachi has shown extremely clever use of genjutsu and radical genjutsu applications(through his finger, through crows).
Despite all the counter genjutsu arguments that originate mostly in BD, Itachi managed to cast genjutsu on everyone he faced so far. 
I think that is something that people tend to overlook.



babaGAReeb said:


> either of these "geniuses" cant show their genius cause kishi is a moron and doesnt know how to show it



That is true. 
But then, it is really hard to show glimmer of intelligence in fights that are ninjutsu dominant.

For example in Death Note, people have to outdo one another via intelligence because thats practically  all they have.

In Naruto, no matter how smart you are, you still need some powerful tools to get the best of your opponent. Especially when you take Kage tiers into consideration. We've seen despite all the planning, they weren't able to do shit to Juubito and it came down to brainless brawling in the end. And power of friendship of course.

Pure intelligence based wins can't really happen outside genin-chuunin tier, where taijutsu is important, jutsus are weaker and smaller in scale.




ueharakk said:


> Shikamaru's intelligence is greater because he competes with ninjas either above or far above his own abilities and wins with almost pure intellect.


When did this happen ? 

If you are talking about Hidan, Shikamaru didn't win via pure intellect, he won via huge prep time and full knowledge. He didn't beat Hidan on the spot.

I agree with part 1, but then he only defeated the sound chich who wasn't all that powerful.
He outright lost to Temari because he was a weakass punk.



> Itachi's isn't because with his MS arsenal he's just flat out stronger than everyone he's solo'd and only beat the one's he hasn't solo'd because of equally powerful or even stronger allies on his side.



The strength of his allies doesn't matter if they hardly have done anything.



> Then there's also the fact that itachi does get tricked by people like Kakashi and the same intelligence hype that kabuto gave him *works against him later in the fight.*


In the first example it was Itachi's shouten clone and Itachi saw through the trickery, but it was too late. 
And Kakashi was stated to be smarter than Shikamaru, and Kabuto should be around that level of intelligence. That doesn't prove Itachi isn't smart. 
Guys like Kakashi and Kabuto are already on the higher echelon of Intelligent Shinobi.



> [
> Plus, Itachi didn't literally set up everything in the fight as he had no idea that sasuke had kirin and didn't plan on getting his leg shanked by the exploding shuriken.  Itachi's plan for the sasuke fight consisted of 3 things: exhaust sasuke to the point where Oro came out, implant amaterasu into sasuke's eyes, die by sasuke's hands.  Itachi's MS power is what allowed him to be in full control of the fight, allowing him to erect Susanoo or use amaterasu at any time it looked like he would die before accomplishing the other 2.



I'd say you are undermining Itachi a bit here.
He planned how the entire fight would pan out. So he probably thought things like "If I do this, Sasuke'd do that" and so on.
Just because he was hit once or twice doesn't mean his plans didn't work out. The plan eventually did work out.
The parts where he seemed to lose control were mostly due to his terrible physical condition which no amount of planning could compansate for because he was dying of an illness. That was something he couldn't fix.


Also his post mortem planning for me is more impressive than his fight against Sasuke. 

Itachi knew Obito would approach Sasuke, thats why he set up the  trap knowing Obito would show his sharingan.

And even then, he had a back up plan no one other than Naruto knew about. 
He took into account that the amaterasu could not work, so as a last resort he implanted the crow that'D stop Sasuke inside Naruto, the person whom he knew would go after Sasuke no matter what.

So all in all, everything Itachi planned have worked out so far despite Obito's efforts, at the cost of a few samurai and Raikage's arm 

edit : 



Baroxio said:


> Part 1 Shikamaru >> Part 2 Shikamaru.
> 
> His feats against Temari and Tayuya were _*far *_better shows of genius than anything he's done in Part 2. The Hidan case is particularly egregious, because it took him a long ass time to figure out Hidan's jutsu, and in the end it only amounted to doing a single obvious move--getting him out of his damn circle. That was it. That was what took him all that time to figure out. What the actual fuck.
> 
> ...



I think part 2 shikamaru is better than part 1 shikamaru, its just that Shikamaru's skillset and power doesn't cut it anymore, no matter how good of a plan he comes up with.
That is why he is a team player, not a solo king


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## Azula (Jan 14, 2014)

itachi figured out kabuto wanted sasuke because kabuto himself pretty much said that his compensation for helping in the war had arrived

anyone with a brain can figure it out if the opponent keeps blabbing out, shikamaru figured out hidan's jutsu's limitations and requirements using everything he saw and heard


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 14, 2014)

Shikamaru has basic ninja tools and one jutsu and average at best skills in his best areas to work with. Experience wise, he's an average 14 year old ninja that lived mostly inside the village.

Itachi has high skills in every area and eyes that let him reveal and copy stuff for him.  Experience wise, he's been on the battlefield since he was 5, and he's a lot older than Shikamaru, and a lot more worldly.

Given equal intelligence, Itachi should just be able to do more, because he has more to work with.  Even given half the intelligence, he should still be able to do more in any given scenario.  

That lends to Itachi's intelligence being more that he knows the ideal tool to use at the right time from his arsenal, and Shikamaru's intelligence typically being that he can figure out how to apply his limited and less than ideal tools to a broad variety of situations.  I usually find the latter to be more impressive.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Jan 14, 2014)

In terms of analysis in battle, Itachi takes it. In terms of intelligence in planning, there's no shinobi in the Naruto verse that rivals Shikamaru and Shikaku in that department.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 14, 2014)

I think that Itachi is wiser which could play a role in the match but Shikamaru IQ was more hyped.

Then again genjutsu skill largely depends on intelligence and given the skill Itachi displayed at that field...

I guess it would all come to author favoritism at the end. Otherwise it comes to fanboy favoritism between those two IMO.

We usually see someone blitzed or outsmarted when there is a clear gap between two guys. Like Ei with V2 against Sasuke or Shikamaru against Hidan. And KB feints which always work against anyone regardless of how smart one is.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When did this happen ?


Temari, Tayuya, Hidan.  Basically his major 3 fights




Grimmjowsensei said:


> If you are talking about Hidan, Shikamaru didn't win via pure intellect, he won via huge prep time and full knowledge. He didn't beat Hidan on the spot.
> 
> I agree with part 1, but then he only defeated the sound chich who wasn't all that powerful.
> He outright lost to Temari because he was a weakass punk.


his prep against hidan is made up by the fact that he wasn't just fighting hidan, he also managed to fool hidan into killing himself as well as Kakuzu.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> The strength of his allies doesn't matter if they hardly have done anything.


I hardly consider drawing the enemies attention so much that they completely forget itachi is even on the battlefield "hardly have done anything".  Had that not been the case, Itachi would have gotten jack done. as well the fact that itachi's victory would be impossible without them there.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> In the first example it was Itachi's shouten clone and Itachi saw through the trickery, but it was too late.
> And Kakashi was stated to be smarter than Shikamaru, and Kabuto should be around that level of intelligence. *That doesn't prove Itachi isn't smart. *
> Guys like Kakashi and Kabuto are already on the higher echelon of Intelligent Shinobi.


Who is arguing the bolded?  Kakashi was being compared to part 1 shikamaru, the only one who's intelligence naruto was aware of at the time assuming that statement wasn't made in filler.

Seeing through an opponent's jutsu by the time it's too late means you were tricked....




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say you are undermining Itachi a bit here.
> He planned how the entire fight would pan out. So he probably thought things like "If I do this, Sasuke'd do that" and so on.
> Just because he was hit once or twice doesn't mean his plans didn't work out. The plan eventually did work out.
> The parts where he seemed to lose control were mostly due to his terrible physical condition which no amount of planning could compansate for because he was dying of an illness. That was something he couldn't fix.


Again, attacking a strawman.  I didn't say itachi's plan didn't work out.  I attacked the notion that Tobi meant Itachi literally planned everything in that fight out to happen is false which is stated by a panel the OP brought up.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also his post mortem planning for me is more impressive than his fight against Sasuke.
> 
> Itachi knew Obito would approach Sasuke, thats why he set up the  trap knowing Obito would show his sharingan.
> 
> ...



I don't see that as that impressive of an intelligence feat.  All that was required is to have knowledge that naruto will fight sasuke if sasuke doesn't go back to konoha as a hero who killed itachi to implant the crow in him it doesn't take much insight to see that.  Knowing Tobi was going to approach sasuke wasn't much of an intelligence feat either, that's more a feat of gaining knowledge on Tobi throughout the time he spent with Tobi pre and during akatsuki.  His analytic feats such as figuring out CT with enough time to destroy it before it got big is a bigger intelligence feat IMO because it shows the speed in which his mind works in battle.


----------



## Tapion (Jan 14, 2014)

Is figuring out chibaku tensei really that impressive? B and Naruto are idiots but anyone else should've came to the same conclusion itachi did.


----------



## Baroxio (Jan 14, 2014)

-Azula- said:


> itachi figured out kabuto wanted sasuke because kabuto himself pretty much said that his compensation for helping in the war had arrived
> 
> anyone with a brain can figure it out if the opponent keeps blabbing out, shikamaru figured out hidan's jutsu's limitations and requirements using everything he saw and heard


Not that I view the soul reading Kabuto feat as all that impressive, but Hidan babbled endlessly more about his jutsu requirements than Kabuto did, and the only thing he came up with was the incredibly obvious tactic of moving Hidan off his circle.

Considering the time it took to come to that simple conclusion, that was literally the weakest showing of Shikamaru's genius thus far.


----------



## Vice (Jan 14, 2014)

It's almost as obviously simple as Itachi figuring out how CT works. 

Also, if we're going by stated manga facts, Kakashi shits all over both of them.


----------



## Bonly (Jan 14, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shikamaru has basic ninja tools and one jutsu and average at best skills in his best areas to work with. Experience wise, he's an average 14 year old ninja that lived mostly inside the village.
> 
> Itachi has high skills in every area and eyes that let him reveal and copy stuff for him.  Experience wise, he's been on the battlefield since he was 5, and he's a lot older than Shikamaru, and a lot more worldly.
> 
> ...



POW pretty much got it spot on for me. 




Baroxio said:


> Not that I view the soul reading Kabuto feat as all that impressive, *but Hidan babbled endlessly more about his jutsu requirements than Kabuto did*, and the only thing he came up with was the incredibly obvious tactic of moving Hidan off his circle.
> 
> Considering the time it took to come to that simple conclusion, that was literally the weakest showing of Shikamaru's genius thus far.



What did Hidan say about it? From what I remember all Hidan said was that Asuma was curse and that Asuma's gonna feel the pain.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think deducing CT's weakness is just an indicator on how Itachi's mind works. It surely isn't rocket science, but that shows how a top tier is supposed to act under pressure.



I'd argue that his status as an Edo Tensei helped with that. I mean, how could anyone be pressured when they're an immortal zombie? 



> Naruto, despite being exposed to that  technique once before, was just standing there and acting impulsively. B was no different. Those 2 are also powerful shinobi.



They're also fucking idiots. Naruto was practically autistic the entire fight. See: using Rasengan on Nagato.



> On the side note, what was Shikamaru's best feat ? Analyzing Hidan's technique under pressure ? It surely wasn an impressive feat but do you really need to be a genius to do that ? I think the moment the damage dealt on Hidan reflected on Asuma, it became very apparent.



I think his entire fight with Tayuya was extremely indicative of Shikamaru's sheer skill in analysis; i.e., memorizing his adversary's finger patterns with a flute whilst under pressure, and with only a few seconds to do so.

The feat with Hidan wasn't that great, but surely better than the one with Nagato.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 14, 2014)

KN6 deduced CT. It ain't that impressive.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 14, 2014)

Shikamaru beats Itachi in both aspects. He is able to plan strategies that keep him at least three steps ahead, which isn't possible without his superb analysis skills. Perhaps the only person who could beat Shikamaru in these departments is his father, Shikaku.

Your evidence involves taking the manga out of context. Therefore the Itachi case is flawed, at best.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 14, 2014)

Itachi is on the lower end of the Uchihas in terms of overall intelligence.

Sasuke is smarter than him, as is Madara. Shisui obviously looked over him, and his Genjutsu was mind controlling without notice, suggesting he was likely one of the smartest ninja in the manga. 

Itachi has shown nothing to suggest he's a widespread genius. Itachi is the most skilled mind in his clan, but he is not the smartest. He cannot analyze and problem solve on the level of Sasuke, and he does not possess the worldly knowledge that Madara has gathered over a lifetime. His overall intelligence has displayed nothing on the IQ level of 200- which almost no one on this site can even comprehend. The things that run through Shikamaru's head we could not even begin to understand, all of us are primitive compared to him, including Itachi.

There are different levels of intelligence, Itachi has shown great proficiency and creativity in skilled techniques (Genjutsu, Weapon proficiency, Jutsu speed), which require intelligence but not much of it. People are really confusing skill-based intelligence with overall intelligence, which Shikamaru beats him in.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 14, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'd argue that his status as an Edo Tensei helped with that. I mean, how could anyone be pressured when they're an immortal zombie?


I doubt it.
For Itachi, protecting the village is more valuable than his own life. So what was @ stake was the security of the village, Naruto & B. I don't think Itachi'd act any differently if he was his living self.




> They're also fucking idiots. Naruto was practically autistic the entire fight. See: using Rasengan on Nagato.


Yeah I agree that they aren't the brightest bunch.




> I think his entire fight with Tayuya was extremely indicative of Shikamaru's sheer skill in analysis; i.e., memorizing his adversary's finger patterns with a flute whilst under pressure, and with only a few seconds to do so.



I admit I have to re-read that fight. For some reason Temrai fight left me the impression that it was more impressive.



> [
> The feat with Hidan wasn't that great, but surely better than the one with Nagato.



I guess it is agree to disagree. CT wasn't the only thing managed to counter in that fight. I think disabling shared vision while simultaneously striking Nagato and saving B & Naruto was also worthy of praise and was done pretty damn fast. I think it was a good example of how one can combine his intelligence and observation skills with his skillset.
Up until that point, whenever I mentioned Itachi's projectiles skills, people were like "lol any jounin can replicate them."




ueharakk said:


> Temari, Tayuya, Hidan.  Basically his major 3 fights


He lost against Tayuya and Temari, though.
Thats why I asked which ones you were referring to.




> his prep against hidan is made up by the fact that he wasn't just fighting hidan, he also managed to fool hidan into killing himself as well as Kakuzu.


Which required assistance of Kakashi.

And Hidan is a pretty one dimensional fighter, bunch of explosive tags and a deep pit can defeat him as we've seen.



> I hardly consider drawing the enemies attention so much that they completely forget itachi is even on the battlefield "hardly have done anything".  Had that not been the case, Itachi would have gotten jack done. as well the fact that itachi's victory would be impossible without them there.


I don't think Kabuto forgot Itachi was on the battlefield. After he chakra drained B he threw him off, he didn't do anything extra to keep him down. B tried to ambush Nagato similar to Itachi and got his ass handed to him. And he had Naruto acting as a distraction.



> Who is arguing the bolded?  Kakashi was being compared to part 1 shikamaru, the only one who's intelligence naruto was aware of at the time assuming that statement wasn't made in filler.


You said "Itachi is someone who gets tricked by Kakashi." You made it sound like getting tricked by Kakashi indicates that he isn't smart. My bad If I got it wrong.



> Seeing through an opponent's jutsu by the time it's too late means you were tricked....


True, but then there is no one in the manga so far who could tell bunshin apart from the real. Getting tricked by a bunshin feint doesn't really tell much about your intelligence, especially if you are fighting through a weaker proxy with the intetion of only stalling.

I mentioned the "late part" because If there wasn't someone else there to capitalize on that feint, seeing through it, even if it was late, would mean something.



> Again, attacking a strawman.  I didn't say itachi's plan didn't work out.  I attacked the notion that Tobi meant Itachi literally planned everything in that fight out to happen is false which is stated by a panel the OP brought up.



Well he did plan everything. I am wondering what you think he left out ? 




> [I don't see that as that impressive of an intelligence feat.  All that was required is to have knowledge that naruto will fight sasuke if sasuke doesn't go back to konoha as a hero who killed itachi to implant the crow in him it doesn't take much insight to see that.  Knowing Tobi was going to approach sasuke wasn't much of an intelligence feat either, that's more a feat of gaining knowledge on Tobi throughout the time he spent with Tobi pre and during akatsuki.  His analytic feats such as figuring out CT with enough time to destroy it before it got big is a bigger intelligence feat IMO because it shows the speed in which his mind works in battle.



It certainly was depicted as an impressive feat though, as Tobi praised him for that. And only said Itachi failed because he had no idea about the Koto crow inside Naruto.
It shows how Itachi can predict ahead. 

CT feat was fine, but then CT isn't that hard to figure out. That feat shows how fast, calm and collective Itachi's thought process is even under extreme pressure.



Vice said:


> It's almost as obviously simple as Itachi figuring out how CT works.
> 
> Also, if we're going by stated manga facts, Kakashi shits all over both of them.



Naah. Kakashi saw Obito execute kamui million times, despite having a similar jutsu himself it took him a very looong while to figure it out, which happened through sheer luck. 

I'd say Tobi being Obito kinda damaged Kakashi's reputation as an intelligent shinobi. Because you wonder why he wasn't able to figure out Kamui or Tobi's identity.



DaVizWiz said:


> Itachi is on the lower end of the Uchihas in terms of overall intelligence.





This guy. 
Stop it bro, you gonna make Munboy jealous.


----------



## Destiny Monarch (Jan 14, 2014)

Depends what type of inllegince we are talking about, in terms of *planning Years ahead* Itachi is the better of the two (Madara is the best in that aspect though), in terms of raw *stratergie* Shikamaru cannot be beaten by anyone other then his dad, Shikaku. In terms of *overall knowledge*, Itachi trumps Shikamaru (however Madara or Kakazu are the best in this aspect). In terms of *prep knowledge/creativity* (being able to do basically anything with prep) Itachi is better (Orochimaru is the best int his aspect however). Overall, Itachi is smarter then Shikamaru.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He lost against Tayuya and Temari, though.
> Thats why I asked which ones you were referring to.


Does him losing to tayuya and temari contradict what i wrote?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which required assistance of Kakashi.
> 
> And Hidan is a pretty one dimensional fighter, bunch of explosive tags and a deep pit can defeat him as we've seen.


Sure, but it was all his plan and something he had to do in addition to defeating Hidan which makes up for the prep.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think Kabuto forgot Itachi was on the battlefield. After he chakra drained B he threw him off, he didn't do anything extra to keep him down. B tried to ambush Nagato similar to Itachi and got his ass handed to him. And he had Naruto acting as a distraction.


Nagato's orders were to capture Naruto and Bee and while he made direct attempts at attacking both naruto and bee, he made no such attempt against itachi.  And I don't see how this contradicts the conclusion of what I posted.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said "Itachi is someone who gets tricked by Kakashi." You made it sound like getting tricked by Kakashi indicates that he isn't smart. My bad If I got it wrong.


Itachi's obviously a rooftier intellect, it's just that I don't think he's as high as people like shikamaru.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> True, but then there is no one in the manga so far who could tell bunshin apart from the real. Getting tricked by a bunshin feint doesn't really tell much about your intelligence, especially if you are fighting through a weaker proxy with the intetion of only stalling.


Even obito knew which naruto was the real one.  Zabuza trolled kakashi's attempt at tricking him with a bunshin feint.  Getting tricked by one is an intelligence feat, people like shikamaru who think several steps ahead of the fight not only would see through stuff like that but have a plan to counteract it especially if fighting people who have abilities on his level.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I mentioned the "late part" because If there wasn't someone else there to capitalize on that feint, seeing through it, even if it was late, would mean something.


Naruto being there to capitalize on the feint was part of the plan, so i don't see how it loses merit.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well he did plan everything. I am wondering what you think he left out ?


Unless Itachi knew about Kirin, planned to take the hit from the shuriken and knew every jutsu that sasuke was going to use before he used them, then he didn't plan everything.  Like I said, he planned it so that in the fight he would be able to accomplish 3 things he didn't literally plan out the entire fight move for move what he and sasuke were going to do.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> It certainly was depicted as an impressive feat though, as Tobi praised him for that. And only said Itachi failed because he had no idea about the Koto crow inside Naruto.
> It shows how Itachi can predict ahead.


Lets walk through this.  If Itachi has a koto crow, knows he's going to die, and wants sasuke to be a hero that protects konoha, what do you think itachi would do with that crow?  Itachi was simply putting multiple failsafes to make guide sasuke in the way he wanted him to be.  He simply prepares a lot, and itachi had years to think about these things and come up with this.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> CT feat was fine, but then CT isn't that hard to figure out. That feat shows how fast, calm and collective Itachi's thought process is even under extreme pressure.


And that's what the whole intelligence thing is about. The majority of shikamaru and his father's praise come from generating complex strategies or figuring out the enemies unique jutsus in an extremely short time, usually in a fight.  Their intelligence was never about having years to ponder and prep for situations that would eventually arise.  That's what you have to compare to itachi's intelligence: their ability to quickly analyze the situation and come up with a strategy on the spot with whatever pieces they have at hand.


----------



## Baroxio (Jan 14, 2014)

Bonly said:


> Ahh so basically the only other thing he said was that prep was made. Thanks


Right before the fodder "figured out" his jutsu, he also told Asuma "Now, let's experience the utmost of pain together" and "the pain that reverberates through my body when somebody dies goes beyond pain and becomes pleasure, blah blah blah."

It's not like his jutsu mechanics were really difficult to figure out from there. Still don't know why we needed Izumo, Kotetsu and even Asuma to have a hand explaining it while Shikamaru, the smartest guy there by far,  says nothing.

Compare this to his plan against Temari, which included him wasting time to lengthen his shadow and the shadows in the arena, drawing Temari's gaze to the ground while setting up an air trap to extend his shadow, using that extended length to force her over to the hole made previously by Naruto before capturing her from behind.

There;s no comparison whatsoever. Part 1 Shikamaru >> Part 2 Shikamaru.


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## Bonly (Jan 14, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Right before the fodder "figured out" his jutsu, he also told Asuma "Now, let's experience the utmost of pain together" and "the pain that reverberates through my body when somebody dies goes beyond pain and becomes pleasure, blah blah blah."
> 
> It's not like his jutsu mechanics were really difficult to figure out from there. Still don't know why we needed Izumo, Kotetsu and even Asuma to have a hand explaining it while Shikamaru, the smartest guy there by far,  says nothing.
> 
> ...



As I said before I remember all Hidan said was that Asuma was curse and that Asuma's gonna feel the pain, what you said pretty much fails under what I said in a less specific way, while adding in that he told them that the prep was done. And I couldn't careless about Shika's feats between part one+part two nor was I suggesting anything to do with that. I was just wondering how "Hidan babbled endlessly more about his jutsu requirements than Kabuto did" when all he said was that Asuma was cursed,Asuma's gonna feel the pain, and the prep was done more or less compared to Kabuto who outright explained some of his jutsu.


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## ueharakk (Jan 14, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> So what intelligence stuff does Shikamaru have that competes with?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Planning_
> ...



I'd also say that this:



puts shikamaru comfortably above itachi's intellect level.  Making Rinnegan Tobi with 7 bijuu amped gedo mazou regret fighting you purely because of your intellect is way more intelligence hype than anything itachi's ever gotten.


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## Baroxio (Jan 14, 2014)

@Bonly 

Which jutsu did Kabuto explain ahead of time that helped the bros counter it? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Kabuto talking about Orochimaru's White Snake mode, which Sasuke's already seen.

Oh, and sorry about the Shikamaru thing. There are a few things in Part 2 that I somewhat...take offense with...

Once I get started on a tirade...


----------



## Bonly (Jan 14, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> @Bonly
> 
> Which jutsu did Kabuto explain ahead of time that helped the bros counter it? The only thing I can think of off the top of my head is Kabuto talking about Orochimaru's White Snake mode, which Sasuke's already seen.
> 
> ...



Not sure. When you said ""Hidan babbled endlessly more about his jutsu requirements than Kabuto did" I thought you was referring to a general sense. The first time Hidan talked about his jutsu was after he already had it set up and working so I don't see how he could have babbled ahead of time to give them a warning to his jutsu before he set it up. Likewise Kabuto for the most part talked about after he finished his jutsu like with Muki Tensei  so I don't recall which jutsu which seems like that would be in the same boat, babbling wise that is. 

No prob I tend to do that sometimes as well


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## Baroxio (Jan 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I'd also say that this:
> 
> 
> 
> puts shikamaru comfortably above itachi's intellect level.  Making Rinnegan Tobi with 7 bijuu amped gedo mazou regret fighting you purely because of your intellect is way more intelligence hype than anything itachi's ever gotten.


Just warning you ahead of time, the response you're likely going to get is that Itachi did the same thing by witholding Obito from attacking Konoha for the decade he was a part of Akatsuki.

Just super saiyan.


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jan 14, 2014)

Itachi has people talking about how impressive he is, although he has never shown it. Even those scans are just embellishing simple tricks. 

Shikamaru on the otherhand has shown to be incredibly impressive. 

P.S. Nice job including examples of Shikamaru.


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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2014)

Shikkamaru lead the entire alliance (strategy wise) and he's only 16. How this even debatable.


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## ueharakk (Jan 14, 2014)

Baroxio said:


> Just warning you ahead of time, the response you're likely going to get is that Itachi did the same thing by witholding Obito from attacking Konoha for the decade he was a part of Akatsuki.
> 
> Just super saiyan.



Thanks, and yeah I already was expecting that to be brought up, however the counter to that point is that 
1) It's not true unless you believe Itachi > Obito + Pain
2) even if it is true, Shikamaru's statement is coming from a way more powerful obito
3) Shikamaru's abilities are tiers beyond tiers below Itachi's abilities, thus Shikamaru's superior intelligence had to make up for what he lacked in ability.  So in regards to the thread, Shikamaru would still be the smarter of the two.


----------



## StickaStick (Jan 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> I'd also say that this:
> 
> 
> 
> puts shikamaru comfortably above itachi's intellect level.  Making Rinnegan Tobi with 7 bijuu amped gedo mazou regret fighting you purely because of your intellect is way more intelligence hype than anything itachi's ever gotten.


Word.

Shikamaru does more with less and for that he gets my vote. Also, that panel with Obito in the OP is very dubious and a clear example of blatant unsubstantiated wank on Kishi's part. Being smart, etc. doesn't mean you can read minds and determine with any kind of certainly how ppl are going to react in certain situations.


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## ARGUS (Jan 14, 2014)

Intelligence is the one thing that shikamaru and his dad truly excel in while comparing with top tiers
I reckon shikamaru nd his dad are the smartest ninjas in the verse 
Itachi is still really close to shikamaru but 
Shikamaru takes it for me seeing as how he and his dad were leading the SA purely based on strategy and tactics 
Plus the way shikamaru strategised to beat hidan and kakuzu was purely genius


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Does him losing to tayuya and temari contradict what i wrote?


You mentioned "taking on stronger foes and winning with pure intellect." Which is false on both accounts. It was neither pure intellect nor he won any of those 2 battles.

Thats why I had to point it out.




> Nagato's orders were to capture Naruto and Bee and while he made direct attempts at attacking both naruto and bee, he made no such attempt against itachi.  And I don't see how this contradicts the conclusion of what I posted.


Kabuto was controlling Nagato, it wasn't about orders @ that point.

You made the claim that "Kabuto forgot Itachi was there." Which was neither stated nor shown. 
Kabuto was simply concentrated on killing them as fast as possible. 
Did he forget B was on the battlefield when he was trying to take care of Naruto ? 
Also he thought he was safe as long as he had the vision of the entire battlefield with extra rinnegan eyes. 




> Itachi's obviously a rooftier intellect, it's just that I don't think he's as high as people like shikamaru.


Like I said, getting bunshin feinted isn't an indicator of that.

There are things Shikamaru can't account for as well  :Muki Tensei 
And Kakuzu isn't as smart as Kakashi. 




> Even obito knew which naruto was the real one.  Zabuza trolled kakashi's attempt at tricking him with a bunshin feint.  Getting tricked by one is an intelligence feat, people like shikamaru who think several steps ahead of the fight not only would see through stuff like that but have a plan to counteract it especially if fighting people who have abilities on his level.



I bet during the heat of the battle, Kakashi'd manage to bunshin feint Shikamaru as well, considering fighting isn't all about intelligence. Skill, moveset, speed, knowledge also become huge factors.

You can't attribute someone getting bunshin feinted solely on intelligence. That'd be wrong.



> Naruto being there to capitalize on the feint was part of the plan, so i don't see how it loses merit.


The plan it self doesn't. Kakashi's sole contribution does.




> Unless Itachi knew about Kirin, planned to take the hit from the shuriken and knew every jutsu that sasuke was going to use before he used them, then he didn't plan everything.  Like I said, he planned it so that in the fight he would be able to accomplish 3 things he didn't literally plan out the entire fight move for move what he and sasuke were going to do.



He probably didn't know about Kirin, but then Kirin was something Sasuke was able to use with almost no chakra. Probably the only Itachi didn't expect him to do.

Also you are stretching about getting hit by the shuriken. Like I said, Itachi's poor physical condition was a result of that. No amount of planning would compansate for the state of his failing body. You can't hold it against him. It wasn't possible for Itachi to know  @ what exact time his body would decline and fail him.

But even then, Itachi accounted for stuff like  : Muki Tensei 
Muki Tensei 

Handseals for an unknown jutsu, probably a feint,  that forced Sasuke to use up his summoning tatoos on his wrists. 
Itachi was aware of what Sasuke had, and was basically depleting Sasuke's arsenal.




> Lets walk through this.  If Itachi has a koto crow, knows he's going to die, and wants sasuke to be a hero that protects konoha, what do you think itachi would do with that crow?  Itachi was simply putting multiple failsafes to make guide sasuke in the way he wanted him to be.  He simply prepares a lot, and itachi had years to think about these things and come up with this.


Itachi had Shisui's eye. That was it. The rest he came up with on his own.
We don't exactly know when he planned these things, but it is clear that he was able to foresee what would happen in the future to some extend and plan accordingly. 
Just like he was able to see Uchiha coup would lead to a civil war. Itachi's foresight was strongly emphaszied. I'd reckon it is also a part of intelligence no ? 




> And that's what the whole intelligence thing is about. The majority of shikamaru and his father's praise come from generating complex strategies or figuring out the enemies unique jutsus in an extremely short time, usually in a fight.  Their intelligence was never about having years to ponder and prep for situations that would eventually arise.  That's what you have to compare to itachi's intelligence: their ability to quickly analyze the situation and come up with a strategy on the spot with whatever pieces they have at hand.



Foresight alone isn't a full indicator of intelligence I agree. 
But making failproof plans based on that foresight is a strong indicator. 
And in essence, what Shikamaru did against Hidan is foresight coupled with an intelligent plan. It just encompasses a shorter time frame with more predictable odds.




Turrin said:


> Shikkamaru lead the entire alliance (strategy wise) and he's only 16. How this even debatable.



This line of thinking suggests Itachi wouldn't be able to. Care to back that up ?(I wanna make ueharakk proud ).


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You mentioned "taking on stronger foes and winning with pure intellect." Which is false on both accounts. It was neither pure intellect nor he won any of those 2 battles.
> 
> Thats why I had to point it out.


Where did I say those words that you quoted? I said he competes with stronger foes.  I said he wins with almost pure intellect which shows how little ability has to do.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto was controlling Nagato, it wasn't about orders @ that point.


Kabuto is always controlling his edos unless he gives them freedom to move like Madara. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You made the claim that "Kabuto forgot Itachi was there." Which was neither stated nor shown.
> Kabuto was simply concentrated on killing them as fast as possible.
> Did he forget B was on the battlefield when he was trying to take care of Naruto ?
> Also he thought he was safe as long as he had the vision of the entire battlefield with extra rinnegan eyes.






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, getting bunshin feinted isn't an indicator of that.
> 
> There are things Shikamaru can't account for as well  :Muki Tensei
> And Kakuzu isn't as smart as Kakashi.


Getting bunshin feinted is an indicator of that especially when you know kakashi can use bunshins.  Shikamaru did account for Kakuzu doing that which is why he stayed away from him and attacked from a distance in case kakuzu had an extra card up his sleeve *which was directly stated by kakuzu later in the fight.*





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I bet during the heat of the battle, Kakashi'd manage to bunshin feint Shikamaru as well, considering fighting isn't all about intelligence. Skill, moveset, speed, knowledge also become huge factors.


Current Kakashi, sure.  Kakashi from the start of part 2 w/o MS?  I don't think so. and the reason he'd bunshin feint shikamaru is because of skill, moveset and knowledge, however in those three categories Itachi's base form far surpasses Shikamaru's.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You can't attribute someone getting bunshin feinted solely on intelligence. That'd be wrong.


obviously



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The plan it self doesn't. Kakashi's sole contribution does.


The plan itself is all that matters since we aren't comparing Kakashi's ability to Itachi, we are comparing Kakashi's intelligence to itachi's, and the intelligence has only to do with Kakashi being able to trick Itachi. 





Grimmjowsensei said:


> He probably didn't know about Kirin, but then Kirin was something Sasuke was able to use with almost no chakra. Probably the only Itachi didn't expect him to do.
> 
> Also you are stretching about getting hit by the shuriken. Like I said, Itachi's poor physical condition was a result of that. No amount of planning would compansate for the state of his failing body. You can't hold it against him. It wasn't possible for Itachi to know  @ what exact time his body would decline and fail him.
> 
> ...


Once again, if you admit that Itachi didn't literally plan out everything in the fight to happen then it means you agree with me that Tobi didn't literally mean itachi planned everything in the fight to happen.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi had Shisui's eye. That was it. The rest he came up with on his own.
> We don't exactly know when he planned these things, but it is clear that he was able to foresee what would happen in the future to some extend and plan accordingly.
> Just like he was able to see Uchiha coup would lead to a civil war. Itachi's foresight was strongly emphaszied. I'd reckon it is also a part of intelligence no ?


No he didn't.  He only forsaw Obito 'possibly' approaching sasuke which is not an intelligence feat, it's an information gathering feat.  From there he simply set up safe guards in order to prevent that from turning sasuke against konoha.  Having years to think of and prep readily available safeguards against simple worst case scenarios isn't much of an intelligence feat.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Foresight alone isn't a full indicator of intelligence I agree.
> But making failproof plans based on that foresight is a strong indicator.
> And in essence, what Shikamaru did against Hidan is foresight coupled with an intelligent plan. It just encompasses a shorter time frame with more predictable odds.


not only is 'failproof' a completely false description of itachi's plan, but the only reason shikamaru's plan against hidan would be defined as 'more predictable' is because there's the chance that none of what itachi feared would happen would come true and that his failsafes wouldn't even need to be used.  There is literally no downside or risk for what itachi did, if his prediction fails and Obito doesn't approach sasuke or sasuke doesn't fight naruto with an EMS then his plan never activates.  Shikamaru on the other hand had to account for any alternatives that might happen and make alternative plans for those actions as well since failing to do so would mean death for him.


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## fior fior (Jan 15, 2014)

Neither of them are in any way intelligent. I'm betting that half of you who've posted in this thread are smarter.

Their 'genius' showings:

*Itachi*
Uses considerable force so as not to kill his brother, rather push him to his limits
→ This really does not take a genius. I've done it several times (not to my brother, of course), I just happen to not be dying of disease (which causes Itachi's demise; all he had to do was keep Susano'o up long enough at the end to cause a fatal heart attack). What Itachi did was extremely difficult, and admirable, but not genius.
Places a trap inside of Sasuke, which activates when Obito comes into his line of vision
→ A simple trap jutsu showing; countless Jōnin-level shinobi have done the same
In case Obito tries to meddle with Sasuke, have a back-up plan: Shisui's eye.
→ Placing the crow inside of Naruto is the most logical move. Best friend, desperate to save Sasuke; who else?
Nothing Itachi did warranted genius. Even freeing himself from Edo Tensei with the crow was down to pure luck and coincidence, not Itachi's foresight.

*Shikamaru*
Hidan uses blood ritual to kill.
→ Let's use a blood feint to get his partner.
Hidan can't die. Hidan is stupid.
→ Let's lure him to a place full of bombs and bury him.
These are just logical steps any rational person would take. There is nothing special about Shikamaru's intelligence.


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## Baroxio (Jan 15, 2014)

fior fior said:


> Neither of them are in any way intelligent. I'm betting that half of you who've posted in this thread are smarter.
> 
> Their 'genius' showings:
> 
> ...


There's nothing special about _Part 2 _Shikamaru's intelligence, you mean.

Part 1 Shikamaru can lay out multi-faceted plans in an instant, memorize complicated notes to an instrument he's never played before, and all the while take into account the opponent's contingencies.

They're not comparable.


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## ZE (Jan 15, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> [/spoiler]



The problem is that Itachi's ability to read people's mind doesn't always work. It failed him when he thought Kabuto was gonna attack Sasuke with muki tensei and the result was a dead Itachi. 

Shikamaru's strategies always work.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 15, 2014)

fior fior said:


> Neither of them are in any way intelligent. I'm betting that half of you who've posted in this thread are smarter.
> 
> Their 'genius' showings:
> 
> ...


Yeah, you completely discounted his Sasuke retrieval arc feats and his battle against Temari. 

Aside from that, figuring out Hidan's technique was nothing short of absolute genius. "Hidan uses blood ritual to kill?" 

At no point was it that easy. He analyzed every single action Hidan took during Asuma's exchange, he analyzed the nature of his weapon technique and remembered he placed blood in his body. He realized he was standing on top of his symbol, then deduced the entire technique in a matter of seconds. 

Moreover, Shikamaru stated canonically has a 200 IQ. That is a genius regardless of tactical strategy feats.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 15, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> Where did I say those words that you quoted? I said he competes with stronger foes.  I said he wins with almost pure intellect which shows how little ability has to do.



Here bro : 





ueharakk said:


> Shikamaru's intelligence is greater because he competes with ninjas either above or far above his own abilities and wins with almost pure intellect.
> .



Shikamaru only won against Hidan and the sound chick in chuunin exams. Vs Hidan it wasn't pure intellect, it was prep mostly. 
He lost to Tayuya & Temari not sure those can be counted as wins with pure intellect.



> Kabuto is always controlling his edos unless he gives them freedom to move like Madara.


Not really. When he leaves them to their own devices, they can't go outside a certain set of rules that Kabuto dictates but they retain their personality and decision making within those boundaries. 

However, when their eyes go darker, Kabuto takes direct control, like he did to Sandaime Kazekage, Muu & Nagato and they become like robots he puppeteers.




> Getting bunshin feinted is an indicator of that especially when you know kakashi can use bunshins.



Kakashi used it in the heat of the battle, he concealed it with katon and then doton. Itachi complimented him on his skilled usage, not intelligence.
I am not saying that it doesn't require intelligence, but obviously other things factored in. 




> Shikamaru did account for Kakuzu doing that which is why he stayed away from him and attacked from a distance in case kakuzu had an extra card up his sleeve *which was directly stated by kakuzu later in the fight.*



He kept his distance because he didn't have much knowledge about Kakuzu's abilities, it doesn't suggest that he specifically took into account what Kakuzu would do.
That is a logical step to take for a mid/long range support,. Being cautius of a stronger shinobi doesn't suggest you are intelligent. Well, only intelligent enough to value your life maybe.



> Current Kakashi, sure.  Kakashi from the start of part 2 w/o MS?  I don't think so. and the reason he'd bunshin feint shikamaru is because of skill, moveset and knowledge, however in those three categories Itachi's base form far surpasses Shikamaru's.


There is absolutely no difference between current Kakashi and Kakashi from the beginning of part 2 in regards to skill or intelligence. And that was probably the last skilled bunshin feint he used ever since. The one he used on Pain wasn't that great.




> The plan itself is all that matters since we aren't comparing Kakashi's ability to Itachi, we are comparing Kakashi's intelligence to itachi's, and the intelligence has only to do with Kakashi being able to trick Itachi.


Fair enough. 




> Once again, if you admit that Itachi didn't literally plan out everything in the fight to happen then it means you agree with me that Tobi didn't literally mean itachi planned everything in the fight to happen.


I don't see why Kirin alone discards the validity of the whole statement. Which didn't force Itachi to revise his plan or anything. 



> No he didn't.  He only forsaw Obito 'possibly' approaching sasuke which is not an intelligence feat, it's an information gathering feat.


I am not sure why you are trying to seperate information gathering from intelligence. Future planning always requires gathering information.
In order to predict  your opponents moves, you have to know at least something about them. 

If you are working @ a firm and you are asked to come out with a marketing plan for the next year, you can't just come up with a plan without any kind of intel on the market.



> From there he simply set up safe guards in order to prevent that from turning sasuke against konoha.  Having years to think of and prep readily available safeguards against simple worst case scenarios isn't much of an intelligence feat.



I am not sure what your standart for that is, but taking things this manga have offedered so far into account, it pretty much is an intelligence feat.
I am not going to argue how big of a feat that is, because the author made a pretty big deal out of it. 
Planning years ahead isn't an easy task. You can plan what your going to do tomorrow or the weak after. But as you go further, different variables become a part of the equation and it becomes a harder task.



> not only is 'failproof' a completely false description of itachi's plan,


It was failproof up until Kabuto summoned him via Edo Tensei. 



> but the only reason shikamaru's plan against hidan would be defined as 'more predictable' is because there's the chance that none of what itachi feared would happen would come true and that his failsafes wouldn't even need to be used. There is literally no downside or risk for what itachi did, if his prediction fails and Obito doesn't approach sasuke or sasuke doesn't fight naruto with an EMS then his plan never activates.  Shikamaru on the other hand had to account for any alternatives that might happen and make alternative plans for those actions as well since failing to do so would mean death for him.



More like Shikamaru had to plan a couple of days ahead, and set up a trap specifically designed to catch a  not so smart one dimensional fighter whom he had full knowledge on, and the worst case scenario it failed, Shikamaru would be dead.

Itachi had to come up with a plan that involved many variables, which was designed to set in motion after his death, and while you are right about it might not have become necessary, but had it failed, the worst case scenario, Konoha would be no more.

I'd say the consequences would be a bit heavier than Shikamaru's death


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

Manga evidence, in context, praises Shikamaru's intelligence. Manga evidence, out of context, attempts to make Itachi's comparable.

It is pretty obvious why Shikamaru wins here.


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## Tengu (Jan 15, 2014)

ZE said:


> Shikamaru's strategies always work.



Not really


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 15, 2014)

Tengu said:


> Not really



Unforeseen factors, he reacted to them accordingly just fine. Especially the part 2 scan, which reflects the latest variant of Shikamaru.


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## Santoryu (Jan 16, 2014)

Kakashi is a better analyst than both, and a better in-battle tactician, as evidenced by the manga.

But Shikimaru is destined to become the most intelligent character in the series, if he isn't already.


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## RedChidori (Jan 16, 2014)

Shikamaru is one of the most intelligent and analytical characters in the series, but Itachi simply triumphs over him in every aspect. We're talking about a guy who *planned an ENTIRE FIGHT and intentionally lost, despite him dying as a result.* Shikamaru has shown that he can orchestrate traps and analytical set ups in battle, but I doubt he can plan an entire fight and manipulate _*every single scenario during it.*_


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## UltimateDeadpool (Jan 17, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> Shikamaru is one of the most intelligent and analytical characters in the series, but Itachi simply triumphs over him in every aspect. We're talking about a guy who *planned an ENTIRE FIGHT and intentionally lost, despite him dying as a result.* Shikamaru has shown that he can orchestrate traps and analytical set ups in battle, but I doubt he can plan an entire fight and manipulate _*every single scenario during it.*_



Itachi _*DIDN'T*_ plan an entire fight. He planned to remove Orochimaru from Sasuke and die by Sasuke's hands, *that's it*. 

Itachi dying also has no importance since that's physical, not mental.


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## Itachі (Jan 17, 2014)

I don't think Itachi is more intelligent than Shikamaru when it comes to battle. Itachi was simply more powerful than Sasuke so I think that's one of the main reasons he was able to play along.


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