# SM jiraiya vs  kakashi



## Android (May 5, 2016)

location : danzo vs sasuke

distance : 30 metres

knowledge : full

ristrections : gama trio 

this kakashi in the *war arc *

Reactions: Like 1


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## Itachі (May 5, 2016)

Without the Gama Trio Kakashi has a decent shot. Jiraiya can circumvent Kamui with Bunshin & Ma's Dustcloud but Kakashi has a way better Bunshin game, J-Man's probably going to get warped sooner or later.


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## Duhul10 (May 5, 2016)

what is the mindset ?


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## Duhul10 (May 5, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Without the Gama Trio Kakashi has a decent shot. Jiraiya can circumvent Kamui with Bunshin & Ma's Dustcloud but Kakashi has a way better Bunshin game, J-Man's probably going to get warped sooner or later.



Actually this


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Without the Gama Trio Kakashi has a decent shot. Jiraiya can circumvent Kamui with Bunshin & Ma's Dustcloud but Kakashi has a way better Bunshin game, J-Man's probably going to get warped sooner or later.


from what i understood , you think j-man will never land a hit on kakashi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Duhul10 said:


> what is the mindset ?


ic going for the kill

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (May 5, 2016)

Jiraiya would win more times then not. He has a barrier to help detect Kakashi wherever he is along with his sensing if he wanted to. He's better in CQC thanks to his Frog Katas and Ma+Pa and from the range game he's better with things like the swamp to slow Kakashi down momentarily along with Goemon and Frog Song is a GG either way. Jiraiya just outclasses Kakashi and Kakashi's only shot at winning is with Kamui but he'd have to get close and get a lucky shot in but I don't see that happening more times then not so yeah


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## Itachі (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> from what i understood , you think j-man will never land a hit on kakashi



I just think that Kakashi has a better chance since Jiraiya's going to be constantly on guard worrying about Kamui, Kakashi has no such problem.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I just think that Kakashi has a better chance since Jiraiya's going to be constantly on guard worrying about Kamui, Kakashi has no such problem.


clones , smoke bombs , dust cloud , senjutsu sensing , and a rasengan with frog karate can't solo ?


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## Muah (May 5, 2016)

The guy who shit himself infront of Oro vs SM jiriya. Without plot Kkashi doesn't stand a real chance against a ninja of that level. Jiriya fought Pein with zero information all five paths and only lost because he had no info. He's extremely fast and strong has superior jutsu better chakra and Is the top 5 most experienced members in Naruto. Even with a jutsu that instantly kills whoever you look at still doesn't give kakashi a chance.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 5, 2016)

Muah said:


> The guy who shit himself infront of Oro vs SM jiriya. Without plot Kkashi doesn't stand a real chance against a ninja of that level. Jiriya fought Pein with zero information all five paths and only lost because he had no info. He's extremely fast and strong has superior jutsu better chakra and Is the top 5 most experienced members in Naruto. Even with a jutsu that instantly kills whoever you look at still doesn't give kakashi a chance.



Kakashi also battled people way beyond pain's and orochimarus power, such as obito( who was lolstomping bm naruto), the tailed beasts( 4 tails rekked jiraiya) and madara. Go figure which one has more experience and better feats.


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## ImSerious (May 5, 2016)

Jiraiya is good, but not good enough to escape the Kamui GG.



Muah said:


> The guy who shit himself infront of Oro

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> lolstomping bm naruto


LOL , he didn't stomp shit  
that was KCM naruto by the way 
i would love to see what lolmighty kakashi can do against BM naruto

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> LOL , he didn't stomp shit
> that was KCM naruto by the way
> i would love to see what lolmighty kakashi can do against BM naruto



KCM naruto my bad.

He didn't stomp shit? 

Tell me what obito is doing to naruto right before the masters save his ass. Checking if he has a fever?

Even base guy held his own against obito extremely well while the great kcm naruto got roflstomped.


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Tell me what obito is doing to naruto right before the masters save his ass. Checking if he has a fever?


LOL , you mean naruto who made a 13 shadow clones across the battlefield , faught zetsu , kages , and saved many others
while the kyuubi was eating his chakra from the inside , and didn't stop until he took a crapload of it 
henc the kyuubi turned fat again


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Even base guy held his own against obito extremely well while the great kcm naruto got roflstomped.


obito , was never after guy or kakashi to begin with 
he was after naruto
second off all , naruto saved both gai and kakashi when they were shitting themselves against the bijuu , didn't he 
third off all , saving someone doesn't mean you are better than him
hinata saved naruto before
sakura saved sasuke before
hell , sakura saved both naruto and sasuke against shin
sakura > rinnegan sasuke and SPSM naruto confirmed LOL  
in a one on one , KCM naruto would stomp the living shit out of kakashi negg diff 
saving someone means jack shit , naruto was defeating kages with his clones and soloing war , and turning the table to the SA side , when kakashi and gai were LOL struggling with white zetsu

Reactions: Like 3


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## wooly Eullerex (May 5, 2016)

sage jiraya eventually wins w/ a clone feint after his opening lions mane gambit, that forces kakashi off of the linear bridge & likewise, into his own set of guerilla tactics & trials


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## Muah (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Kakashi also battled people way beyond pain's and orochimarus power, such as obito( who was lolstomping bm naruto), the tailed beasts( 4 tails rekked jiraiya) and madara. Go figure which one has more experience and better feats.



 Didn't he win aginsts half dead obito with no jutsus and his strongest move nullified through PIS? Don't forget a health obito was fighting Bee Naruto and fucking wrecking the shit out of kakashi before he even revealed who he was. I don't remember him fighting a tailed beast but i'm sure he had a lot of help and jiriya ws badely injured by Naruto because he was his student and didn't want to kill him. Also as far as fighting people strong than pein and Oro he died against one pein path. He also did jack shit to madara even after having the entire ninja world and the two strongest ninjas alive backing him up. The most relevant thing he did was have his eye stolen. Against everybody you mentioned he would be no diffed by on a battlefield.

You underestimate Oro, ye he was no match for Itachi but he's still alive, even the most hax moveset in Naruto and every forbidden Jutsu alive couldn't finish him off. He survived being sealed by top tiers about3 or 4 times and out lived them all. Kakashi is a terrific genius and jounin but he's weak sauce compared to the big boys. He never fought somebody stronger than Oro one on one without getting his ass kicked and then saved except to obito to reinact kishi's obsession with genius fighters and this was after obito fought the entire alliance turned into the 10 tails had the ten tails ripped out and had his eye stolen.

You can call it whatever you want but nobody took jiriya lightly, including the people that shitted on Kakashi. I can name many people who shitted on Kakashi that feared or respected Jiriya.

Oro
Itachi
Pein

I'm sure their are many i'm forgetting.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 5, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> LOL , you mean naruto who made a 13 shadow clones across the battlefield , faught zetsu , kages , and saved many others
> while the kyuubi was eating his chakra from the inside , and didn't stop until he took a crapload of it
> henc the kyuubi turned fat again
> 
> ...



Lol it looks like someone is mad.

Since when did this thread turn into naruto vs kakashi? I was simply pointing out that kakashi has been able to handle even stronger opponents than jiraiya did just fine.

Naruto has nearly unlimited chakra and if he was half as bright as you think he is, he would of handled the whole war himself, instead he got babysat throughout the whole war, even his clones that have the same physical stats and immense chakra was barely able to make the third raikage poke himself after being babysat by the rubber dude.

Mediocre times a thousand is still mediocre, and it's the reason that naruto despite having a gigantic amount of chakra capable of powering the whole allegiance with chakra cloaks, had to be saved by kakashi and gai, who had to trouble keeping up with the obito who was making shortwork of naruto. Naruto has dozens of ways to kill kakashi, but kakashi only needs one, kamui, which is more versatile and faster than anything naruto has.

Don't get me wrong, I know naruto is perfectly capable of ending this battle quickly as well, but battles between characters can go in dozens of different ways, and after all, all we are doing is discussing one way in which it can go, out of all of them, for our preferred character, right?


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## Android (May 5, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> Lol it looks like someone is mad.


no shit 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> kakashi has been able to handle even stronger opponents than jiraiya did just fine.


he did not tho  
he got bitchslaped by the jinchuurikis , was going to get nuked if naruto didn't save his ass  
the only thing he did against those jinchuurikies was cutting the chakra arms that han used 
after that naruto saved his ass 
and he talks about babysiting 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Naruto has nearly unlimited chakra and if he was half as bright as you think he is, he would of handled the whole war himself, instead he got babysat throughout the whole war, even his clones that have the same physical stats and immense chakra was barely able to make the third raikage poke himself after being babysat by the rubber dude.


no , naruto took , a finit amount of chakra from the kyuubi , he used most of it to turn the table to the SA side 
faught and destroyed white zetsu 
faught kages everywhere 
spammed many clones over the battlefield 
faught against edo madara 
spammed a crapload of clones to destroy his jokai kotan 
all this while kakashi was struggling with LOL zetsu clones  
and he talks about babysiting 


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Mediocre times a thousand is still mediocre, and it's the reason that naruto despite having a gigantic amount of chakra capable of powering the whole allegiance with chakra cloaks, had to be saved by kakashi and gai, who had to trouble keeping up with the obito who was making shortwork of naruto. Naruto has dozens of ways to kill kakashi, but kakashi only needs one, kamui, which is more versatile and faster than anything naruto has.



obito like i said before wasn't after kkashi or gai , he was after naruto 
second of all , naruto saved both their asses from getting nuked by the bijuu , otherwise they end up as a smear 
and if we talk about who saved who  :
naruto saved kakashi and gai from the bijuu 
gave kakashi his chakra to save him from exhaustion and death
spammed his chakra to the SA army to protect them from madara and obito's katons and giant shurikens and the juubi's Tenpenchi 
saved the entire army from getting nuked with the juubi's 4 TBBs 
saved gai's life from the effects of the 8th gate
saved kakashi's ass again against kaguya and madara
and he comes here and talks about babysiting  


Crimson Flam3s said:


> Don't get me wrong, I know naruto is perfectly capable of ending this battle quickly as well, but battles between characters can go in dozens of different ways, and after all, all we are doing is discussing one way in which it can go, out of all of them, for our preferred character, right?


indeed

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## ARGUS (May 5, 2016)

Kakaahi one shots him with kamui.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

Full knowledge with no Gama trio to hinder him here means SM Jiraiya will soon be taking a one-way trip to the Kamui resorts. Kakashi's game is gonna focus on catching Jiraiya with just that, which is just what I see him exactly doing with his clone game and tactical prowess, and better stamina. It won't be easy given SM Jiraiya's vast arsenal, but it's easy to catch someone who's not as quick as BM Naruto, whom Kakashi warped as he lunged towards Obito and a warp which surpassed Obito's own precognition.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2016)

KCM Naruto did get rofl-stomped by Obito though. That's really undeniable. KCM Naruto needed Kakashi and Gai to but in or else he would've been one-paneled instantly.


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> KCM Naruto did get rofl-stomped by Obito though. That's really undeniable. KCM Naruto needed Kakashi and Gai to but in or else he would've been one-paneled instantly.



Do you think KCM Naruto would have fared better or even defeated Rinnegan Obito w/o Kamui?


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Do you think KCM Naruto would have fared better or even defeated Rinnegan Obito w/o Kamui?



 In terms of CQC, not really. I'm not even sure if KCM Naruto would even win even with clones honestly.


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Kakashi one-shots with , easily.

Kakashi is also  than SM Jiraiya, can dodge his attacks with Sharingan precognition + raw speed or Doton underground quick hiding/movement or Kamui self teleporting, if needed. Jiraiya has very powerful techniques but he isn't tagging Kakashi, and a skillful Raiton Kage Bunshin feint makes Jiraiya killed with Raikiri or Raiden. Or Kakashi simply end the fight with his Mangekyo Sharingan the instant he feels to use it.

Restricting Jiraiya's toad summons is useless, they aren't doing shit here. The three toad were to slow to tag not only Deva Path but even Preta Path, who ran circles and literally danced in between their hits. Kakashi was successfully fighting Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 Bijuu who were stomping around KCM Naruto and Hachibi Killer B's ass. Jiraiya's toads would be dealt with a Kage Bunshin, easily dodging them and taking them out with Sharingan genjutsu or Raiton techniques directed to their eyes or limbs.

Pre War Arc Kakashi fought against Pain's strongest body plus the second strongest body and was able to trick and corner both without any need for his trump card, the Mangekyo. While Jiraiya had to use Sennin Mode, his trump card, just to begin the fight with a far weaker Path; not to mention that even with that, he textually stated he was going to be killed against only Animal, Preta and Human, who even as a collective unit are <<<<< Deva Path. Pre War Arc Kakashi was already , in the third databook who covers up to volume 43. . So War Arc Kakashi > Part 2 Kakashi > Jiraiya, not only by feats but also by portrayal and statements.

Reactions: Disagree 3 | Dislike 2


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi one-shots with , easily.

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## Duhul10 (May 6, 2016)

LeL raikiri. The only issue for Jiraiya is Kamui and it might work.
Jiraiya trumps Kakashi in portrayal and that was made clear in The pain arc. 
Featwise Sm Jiraiya is too much of a powerhouse for Kakashi. The latter will get demolished When he gets close If he does not set up a bunshin.
Oh and you also mention The db part. The db says that Kakashi is The number one most SKILLED ninja in Konoha, which I agree, yet characters like gai and Jiraiya trump him overall ( excluding Kamui again which still has like none offensive feats ).


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi is also  than SM Jiraiya,


 the databook begs to differ 


Raikiri19 said:


> Kage Bunshin feint makes Jiraiya killed with Raikiri or Raiden


his a sensor , you can't feint him , it's kakashi actually who might get feinted 


Raikiri19 said:


> they aren't doing shit here.


 they were doing shit against pain , and against the juubi , but they won't do anything against kakashi LOL 


Raikiri19 said:


> stomping around KCM Naruto and Hachibi Killer B's ass.


nonsense
kakashi did shit , he cut a few arms and that's it 
he was going to get nuked if naruto didn't save his ass 
also , that was naruto who had like 1/13 of his chakra , and lost a crapload of his own chakra , who got taken away by the kyuubi , henc he got fat again
KCM naruto was defeating kages while kakashi was LOL struggling with white zetsu 


Raikiri19 said:


> Pre War Arc Kakashi fought against Pain's strongest body plus the second strongest body


more like was getting his ass kicked by deva path who only used ST and BT , if choza and choji and those jounin did help him he would've never last a minute


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> the databook begs to differ
> 
> his a sensor , you can't feint him , it's kakashi actually who might get feinted
> 
> ...


The manga begs to not differ.

Who has no sensory feats, at all. And sensors have been feinted for all the manga, if Kakashi feinted Itachi and feinted Pain, then for a stronger version of Kakashi feinting Jiraiya would be a joke.

They weren't doing shit, other than getting stomped. Oh well they went well against Pain's summons, I mean against human strong opponents. As already addressed, even Preta Path could literally run circles around them.

Good denial, Naruto was getting stomped in CQC while Kakashi landed hits and fought well for an extended period of time.

If struggling is stomping all around with absolute ease, then well. The only matter was stamina, not the power of the opponents.

More Kakashi was tricking Pain with ease, to then launch a deathly blow, and more like Choza and Choji didn't do anything useful other than do a diversion attack on Pain and pull out the chains that Kakashi prepared to stop Pain in his tracks. Something Kakashi could have realized alone with the usage of clones.


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## Itachі (May 6, 2016)

@Raikiri19

Why do you think Kakashi is much faster than SM Jiraiya? You listed some good feats for Kakashi, but SM Jiraiya would be able to replicate like every one of those. He just lacks panel time. I think that Jiraiya should be faster than Kakashi when he's in SM, with SM precog he should have better reflexes too.


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> @Raikiri19
> 
> Why do you think Kakashi is much faster than SM Jiraiya? You listed some good feats for Kakashi, but SM Jiraiya would be able to replicate like every one of those. He just lacks panel time. I think that Jiraiya should be faster than Kakashi when he's in SM, with SM precog he should have better reflexes too.



Because of... Kakashi's feats, which are much more impressive than anything SM Jiraiya ever displayed, and would even being able to display, judging by his showings. Not to mention that Kakashi has hype as a speedster while SM Jiraiya has, like, none.

Jiraiya's SM enhanced reflexes doesn't exist, he isn't SM Naruto or SM Kabuto. I know that databook retconned the manga and gave Kawazu Kumite to Jiraiya too, but he is featless so I can give him the benefit of the doubt against some weaker opponent, but sure as hell not against Kakashi who is an established speedster with both great reaction feats and speed feats, and even hype (which Jiraiya completely lacks).


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## Itachі (May 6, 2016)

@Raikiri19

J-Man hasn't displayed much sure but he had a good showing considering that the only proper fight he had was against Pain. I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt to be honest, as you said he didn't have the same SM buffs as SM Naruto.

Jiraiya also has solid base stats and while he hasn't got much hype for being a speedster, he's got the same score as Kakashi and SM should bump him above Kakashi.

I agree that Kakashi has better feats overall, but SM Jiraiya would easily outperform Kakashi if given a chance to, in my opinion.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Jiraiya would destroy him even in base mid-difficult at most.

War Arc Kakashi still needed a massive amount of help to deal with Zabuza and from there with the other 7 swordsmen 
Same people whom Kisame said they are nothing in comparison to Jiraiya.

That said, SM Jiraiya fodderstomps. It's not even close.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Because of... Kakashi's feats, which are much more impressive than anything SM Jiraiya ever displayed, and would even being able to display, judging by his showings. Not to mention that Kakashi has hype as a speedster while SM Jiraiya has, like, none.
> 
> Jiraiya's SM enhanced reflexes doesn't exist, he isn't SM Naruto or SM Kabuto. I know that databook retconned the manga and gave Kawazu Kumite to Jiraiya too, but he is featless so I can give him the benefit of the doubt against some weaker opponent, but sure as hell not against Kakashi who is an established speedster with both great reaction feats and speed feats, and even hype (which Jiraiya completely lacks).



Seriously dude, have you even read this manga?

Even Kakashi himself does not agree with your nonsense. 

Can you tell me how many characters Kakashi needed at the war arc to deal with a freaking Zabuza?


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## Mercurial (May 6, 2016)

Itachі said:


> @Raikiri19
> 
> J-Man hasn't displayed much sure but he had a good showing considering that the only proper fight he had was against Pain. I think he should be given the benefit of the doubt to be honest, as you said he didn't have the same SM buffs as SM Naruto.
> 
> ...



He didn't have that good of a showing, at least relatively to speed, sure as hell not as good as Kakashi's speed feats. Since he also has no hype regarding his speed and he hasn't a perfect SM like Naruto or Kabuto, I won't give any benefit of the doubt against a famed speedster with feats.

I don't buy the databook stats, as they are completely inconsistent with what the manga showed. Not to mention that they stop at databook 43, so they have Part 2 Kakashi but not War Arc Kakashi. Also they don't consider enhancements, so Kakashi's Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan heavily boosting his reflexes. Anyway, I am going with actual manga feats, where Kakashi trumps Jiraiya, SM (imperfect) or not.



Hussain said:


> Seriously dude, have you even read this manga?
> 
> Even Kakashi himself does not agree with your nonsense.
> 
> Can you tell me how many characters Kakashi needed at the war arc to deal with a freaking Zabuza?



A lot, obviously Kakashi couldn't deal with the much more powerful Zabuza by himself. 

I mean, sure. War Arc Kakashi just completely blitzed Zabuza, cutting off his arm with the cleaver sword and piercing his heart with a single dash:


*Spoiler*: __ 









War Arc Kakashi is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Zabuza. Simply, if he has an entire army as his back up, it would be utterly stupid to not take advantage of that.

Your trolling is becoming funnier than ever.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

@

1- Zabuza using the mist jutsu
fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms
and Kakashi is already froced to have other 3 characters to cover for him from each side

2- His so amazing speed and Kamui clearly took Zabuza out in the first second
fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms

3- He needed the Yamanaka guy to control him in order to sense Zabuza's place, and the Nara guy for his shadow jutsu
fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms
and of course the Suna fodder for the sealing, but that is not that important

And even then, Zabuza was completely controlled. So his battle sensing is not as good like what happened with Edo part 1 Hashi and Tobi, and then Nagato and Mu...etc etc



> Your trolling is becoming funnier than ever.



That's rich coming from you. 
Kakashi would have never been able to find Zabuza without the sensing ability he does not have. 
He did not win because he can do it alone, but because of the help from others. And we are talking about Zabuza here, the first enemy in part 1.

Everything Kakashi has ever done from the start of part 1 to the start of the War arc did not
let Kishi make Kakashi win against Zabuza without help, and that includes ALL of his feats up
to that point 

And you are trying to compare Kakashi to the much stronger SM Jiraiya?


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> In terms of CQC, not really. I'm not even sure if KCM Naruto would even win even with clones honestly.



Then by logic you just implied Kakashi surpasses KCM Naruto in that regard  since he did take down Obito in the Kamui dimension on his own. 

Kakashi definitely needs Kamui in order to win against Jiraiya decisively. That way he can one-shot Jiraiya as he's keeping his distance, which is crucial for SM Jiraiya given I believe Kakashi would defeat SM Jiraiya in CQC, who has solid feats against the V2 hosts and Rinnegan Obito. It wouldn't be easy though but he's go Raikiri flow which is perhaps one of the most useful techniques in CQC anyways.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Then by logic you just implied Kakashi surpasses KCM Naruto in that regard  since he did take down Obito in the Kamui dimension on his own.
> 
> Kakashi definitely needs Kamui in order to win against Jiraiya decisively. That way he can one-shot Jiraiya as he's keeping his distance, which is crucial for SM Jiraiya given I believe Kakashi would defeat SM Jiraiya in CQC, who has solid feats against the V2 hosts and Rinnegan Obito. It wouldn't be easy though but he's go Raikiri flow which is perhaps one of the most useful techniques in CQC anyways.



lol, the Kamui-fanfiction again.

Kakashi had Kamui since part 2 started. And yet he declared that Wind-Arc Narudo is stronger than he is.
He had Kamui during Pain Arc, and when he thought about Jiraiya fighting Pain he thought that was insane feat.

At no point have  we ever seen that Kakashi was keeping his ditance and teleporting people's head. This fan-fiction only exist along the Amatersu nonsense at fanfiction.net.

Or Jiraiya summoning the frog's S/T jutsu, staying there to prepare for Frog Song, and then comes out and solo everyone...

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Android (May 6, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> The manga begs to not differ.


maybe your secret manga , but not kishi's manga , that's for sure 


Raikiri19 said:


> Who has no sensory feats, at all. And sensors have been feinted for all the manga, if Kakashi feinted Itachi and feinted Pain, then for a stronger version of Kakashi feinting Jiraiya would be a joke.


the databook says he is a sensor 
yes , kakashi feinting jiraiya is a joke indeed , i'm glad we agree 
feinted itachi and pain , since when the sharingan and the rinnegan can tell the difference between the KB and the clone 
even konohamaru feinted naraka path 


Raikiri19 said:


> They weren't doing shit, other than getting stomped. Oh well they went well against Pain's summons, I mean against human strong opponents. As already addressed, even Preta Path could literally run circles around them.


lets put some things clear first 
pain >>>> kakashi 
hell , tendou >>>>> kakashi 
if summons weren't helpful , naruto or jiraiay wouldn't need them against pain or the juubi 
gamaken helped jiraiya by fighting the dogs didn't he 
the gama trio helped naruto gestroying pain summons didn't they ?
gamabunta helped naruto killing animal path , didn't he ?
gamakishi helped naruto attacking the juubi didn't he ?
but for whatever reason , summons aren't helpfull against kakashi ldryma


Raikiri19 said:


> Good denial, Naruto was getting stomped in CQC while Kakashi landed hits and fought well for an extended period of time.


no , naruto wasn't getting stomped 
he was low on kyuubi chakra , and his own chakra , since the kyuubi took a crap ton of it to get fat again
lets see what happened 
naruto faught the white zetsu 
he faught the kages
he spread his clones across the battlefield even tho the hachibi warned him about that 
he faught edo tensei madara 
he destroyed madara's jokai kotan with a 100+ clones + rasengan barrage 
he turned the table to the SA side 
he faught against obito and the new jinchuurikis and landed more hits than kakashi
he did a crap load of work to free son goku from obito's control
spammed 1000+ clones to get out of son goku's stomach 
and many many other things 
while kakashi 
struggling with fodder edos
struggling with white zetsu 
his raikiri failed to even scratch a jinchuuriki
cut off a few arms 
was going to get nuked before naruto saved his ass 
 


Raikiri19 said:


> More Kakashi was tricking Pain with ease, to then launch a deathly blow, and more like Choza and Choji didn't do anything useful other than do a diversion attack on Pain and pull out the chains that Kakashi prepared to stop Pain in his tracks. Something Kakashi could have realized alone with the usage of clones.


tricking pain ? 
landing deathly blows ? 
are you serious ? do you read kishi's manga , or other secret manga ? 
he got stabed with a black resiver 
tendo dodged his raikiri 
nuked his ass away with a shinra tensei 
made a joke out of his tracking fang 
asura came up , he and tendo were dancing around kakashi 
manged to land a raiton KB on asura 
choza and choji came out , took out asura with one blow 
helped kakashi with his plan , to pull out the chains 
and lol @ kakashi using clones when he lost half of his chakra with a raitong KB 
and even then , his plan failed , a destroyed asura blitzed him and made a joke out of his raikiri 
the same asura that naruto destroyed with one rasengan 
his plan got both him and choza killed 
so what we have is : 
kakashi + help + jiraiya's informations , lost to two paths + got blitzed by a destroyed path + landed one hit and one hit only , and delevered a few informations 

jiraiya + his summons + no kind of knowledge what so ever , faught 6 paths and killed 3 paths 
managed to deliver a *pain body and far more informations *

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## LightningForce (May 6, 2016)

Hussain said:


> lol, the Kamui-fanfiction again.



Well, SM Jiraiya vs. Kakashi is also fanfiction. So I don't see the problem with fanfiction here here.



> Kakashi had Kamui since part 2 started. And yet he declared that Wind-Arc Narudo is stronger than he is.
> He had Kamui during Pain Arc, and when he thought about Jiraiya fighting Pain he thought that was insane feat.



Kakashi is humble. He was saying Naruto was stronger from a growing perspective; the only new technique that Naruto learned was Rasenshuriken, and when he mentioned that statement he didn't know about its drawbacks.

We never saw Jiraiya performing against Deva Path and Asura Path, and considering Konoha had absolutely no intel on either of them, it's safe to say that Jiraiya didn't get to see much of their arsenal, if anything at all. Frankly, Kamui one-shots Deva if plot hand't held back Kakashi. But Deva could also do the same as well if we're talking match-up scenarios.



> At no point have  we ever seen that Kakashi was keeping his ditance and teleporting people's head. This fan-fiction only exist along the Amatersu nonsense at fanfiction.net.
> 
> Or Jiraiya summoning the frog's S/T jutsu, staying there to prepare for Frog Song, and then comes out and solo everyone...



He was going to do just that against Pain before Choza and Choji interefered. He would've also done with Kakuzu before Naruto interfered. He was going to do it against Obito before Obito told him it wouldn't work on him. He also did against against GM's head before Obito cancelled it out. Kakashi's feats with Kamui in the War Arc demonstrate that its warp speed is more than enough to send Jiraiya to the Kamui resorts before he even realizes it.

You just mad cause AmaGG, Frog Song GG, and KamuiGG one-shot your favorite character.


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## Trojan (May 6, 2016)

> [="LightningForce, post: 55593011, member: 250289"]Well, SM Jiraiya vs. Kakashi is also fanfiction. So I don't see the problem with fanfiction here here.



The "IC" part is the main problem here. Because otherwise, a lot of characters can pull off some crazy shit. 


> Kakashi is humble. He was saying Naruto was stronger from a growing perspective; the only new technique that Naruto learned was Rasenshuriken, and when he mentioned that statement he didn't know about its drawbacks.


He was humble by thinking to himself? 
Kakashi stated 3 or 4 times that Wind-Arc Narudo is stronger than him.
The last one was when he was thinking to himself at the War Arc
fodder to Kaguya's chakra arms



> We never saw Jiraiya performing against


not sure what you mean here to be honest... 



> He was going to do just that against Pain before Choza and Choji interefered.


He was planning to use Raikiri as far as I remember. 


> He would've also done with Kakuzu before Naruto interfered.


to teleport his coming attack, not his head. 



> He was going to do it against Obito before Obito told him it wouldn't work on him.


This one is legit. Even they he believed him before he even tried. lol 


> He also did against against GM's head before Obito cancelled it out.


It's not a character tho, Kishi makes that difference. 


> Kakashi's feats with Kamui in the War Arc demonstrate that its warp speed is more than enough to send Jiraiya to the Kamui resorts before he even realizes it.


Must be why he did not use it against 7 swordsmen, the Junchuurikis, Madara, Kaguya...etc etc 



> You just mad cause AmaGG, Frog Song GG, and KamuiGG one-shot your favorite character.



Narudo already trolled Amatersu at the VOTE, and Frog Song he has it. 
Minato already trolled Amatersu, and Kamui, and he has Frog Song via the frogs

So, your assumption is wrong. 

Bolt will be able to troll them soon. Heck, I would say he can already troll Amatersu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (May 6, 2016)

this ends the way it always should kamui GG

I honestly hate that jutsu it doesn't suit kakashi at all and is basically kishi being dry. I do enjoy obito application more though

I honestly see jiriaya doing better against obito version than kakashi kamui wrap


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2016)

LightningForce said:


> Then by logic you just implied Kakashi surpasses KCM Naruto in that regard  since he did take down Obito in the Kamui dimension on his own.
> 
> Kakashi definitely needs Kamui in order to win against Jiraiya decisively. That way he can one-shot Jiraiya as he's keeping his distance, which is crucial for SM Jiraiya given I believe Kakashi would defeat SM Jiraiya in CQC, who has solid feats against the V2 hosts and Rinnegan Obito. It wouldn't be easy though but he's go Raikiri flow which is perhaps one of the most useful techniques in CQC anyways.



 I actually have no issue believing that. KCM Naruto was reflexively inferior to V1 Raikage, someone that War Arc Kakashi should comfortably be above.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2016)

Why would Kakashi before superior to V1 A in speed or reflexes


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why would Kakashi before superior to V1 A in speed or reflexes



Kakashi and even gai in base had no trouble keeping up with obito who was shitting in kcm naruto in cqc, no?

I don't know about being much more superior, but equal at the very least, going by feats.

I imagine a Big meat head would need quite a decent speed power up to become as fast as a known slim speedster, that's what makes A so dangerous, no just anyone has that kind of strength and power, coupled with the speed.


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## hbcaptain (May 7, 2016)

SM Jiraya is overall a lot stronger than War Kakashi , basically War Kakashi and P2 are the same except the Kamui mastery . The same Kakashi was overwelmed by Kakuzu's masks , the copy ninjas is losing badly to this Jiraya's version . Mid-long range Ninjutsu , Taijutsu , power , speed , reflexes , diverstity , CQC ninjutsu , SM Jiraya is far above Kakashi in all this fields . The only way Kakahsi is winning is throught Kamui , but since Jiraya is a Senjutsu user , he might sens the chakra concentration in the eye (jsute like Nagato and JJ Obito) and counter it using some hiding technique (Shima's Futon smoke , or another trick like this) before getting stomped .

Kakashi may be more efficient than Jiraya in clone usage , yet we all know when the difference of level is huge (Kakashi said he can't defeat weackened Dava path alone) this might not work .

Finally I will give it to SM Jiraya mid diff because of Kamui , without it , Sage Jiraya stomps hard .


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## Mercurial (May 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Why would Kakashi before superior to V1 A in speed or reflexes


Taka Sasuke (with reactions/reflexes and physical speed below Itachi's) clowned V1 Ei. And Kakashi, especially in his War Arc incarnation, would school Sasuke in CQC.

Also, Kakashi's speed feats.

Shippuden Kakashi dodging a forest-destroying attack (Kakuzu's Fuuton: Atsugai) at point blank and with his attention divided by the taijutsu fight against Hidan (where, even with an injured arm, he was taking care of him with ease using just a mere kunai against his scythe), keeping up with Kakuzu's masks and taking an eye on team 10 *(1)(2)(3)* ... and right after that quickly jump to intercept Kakuzu's fast Raiton ninjutsu (Kakuzu's Raiton Gian is hyped for the speed of the lightning bolts, in the databook) with Raikiri, saving team 10's asses *(4)*, is a feat more than comparable to V1 Ei dodging Juugo's chakra laser at point blank.

Ei sure is famed for speed. Well speed is a distinctive quality that Kakashi can be recognized for:



Kakashi was able to keep up to a certain extent with Gated Gai's speed, more than once *(5)* and together with Gai managed to counterblitz the Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 (who were ganbanging and stomping around KCM Naruto and Hachibi Bee): Kakashi was fast enough to land Raikiri on them, to cut their chakra arms off with Raiden and to perfectly keep up with them in a prolonged fight until they transformed in the full forms:

... this


*Spoiler*: __ 








... this is surely better than this


*Spoiler*: __ 










Kakashi, right after regaining his mindset, outreacted and outspeeded Obito *(6)()(8)* who had the same physical speed of no-Flash-Shunshin KCM Naruto *(9)*, who is casually as fast as Itachi *(10)* and V1 Ei *(11)*, who then Kakashi logically outspeeds. Kakashi also proved to be faster and better in CQC than Obito more than once *(12)(13)*, even stopping his surprise attack with a powerful chakra rod *(14)(15)*.

Also. Kakashi showed he could canonically move and react at least on par with Minato, showing equal reactions and body speed to the Yellow Flash, evidenced with both reacting and moving at the same time against a sudden and unexpected threat:



Actually it can be said that War Arc MS Kakashi's reactions are above Minato's, as the latter will be even outperformed in reactions by the former. Minato couldn't follow what happened when Kakashi used long range Kamui on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it to him, and had to ask Kakashi if he managed to successfully warp away the monster or if Madara summoned it to him.



Minato is much faster than V1 Ei, so if Kakashi's speed and reactions don't pale in comparison to Minato's, then do the math. 

Before anyone can say that Ei's speed pressured KCM Naruto, it's clear that Naruto wasn't even remotely serious against Ei: Naruto went to being pressured hard by V1 Ei's speed, to completely outspeeding V2 Ei, and with a freaking last-minute movement, nevertheless. Also we witnessed Kakashi outspeeding Obito, who has no problem whatsoever in keeping up with Naruto's no-Flash-Shunshin speed and to reacting to Naruto's best speed 16 (even with a physical reaction, moving his gunbai to intercept 17 Naruto's Shunshin + Rasengan).


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2016)

Clowned? He avoided 1 strike 
Then couldn't avoid the raiga bomb right after hardly clowning when you trading blows
Why ur posts always so long man esp when it actually lacks content despite all the words


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## hbcaptain (May 7, 2016)

KCM Naruto's speed sure is fast but not that fast , he got his super speed only two times in the whole manga , the fisrt time against Kisame , and the second time against V2 Ei max speed , and in both cases some elite ninjas as Bee , Tsunade and Kisame only viewed a yellow flash. If we exclude these two feats , then :
-V1 Ei was easily reacting to him and overwelming him in Taijutsu .
-V1 Ei took both Base Bee et KCM Naruto at once .
-Base Bee showed the same Shunshin/speed and better moves/reaction against the Jins .
-Base Gai showed better Taijutsu and moves than him plus his clone .
Personnaly , if we excepet the two times he showed a really great , KCM Naruto's speed is just fast but that's all , some Sharingan users like Kage summit Sasuke or Itachi were much more impressive in CQC and Taijutsu skills .


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## Android (May 7, 2016)

IIRC , kakashi has 4.5 or 5 in speed 
jiraiya has 4.5 - 5
add in senjutsu buffs and jiraiya is comfortably above kakashi


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## Veracity (May 7, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Clowned? He avoided 1 strike
> Then couldn't avoid the raiga bomb right after hardly clowning when you trading blows
> Why ur posts always so long man esp when it actually lacks content despite all the words



Thank you! This is what I was talking about in the earlier posts. Its just a long ass wall of words overhyping Kakashis feats without any real substance. Most people are intimated by long posts with several pabelsy, but actually read it and you will see that nothing with actual substinence is proven.

For instance:
-He wishes to compare Ay and Kakashi's speed hype by using Obito's comment of Kakashi being quick.... The clear difference is that lots of characters have speed hype just like that. Ays speed hype, on the other hand, is unparalleled until KCM Naruto arrived.
- He uses Kakashi dodging Kakuzu's AoE attacks as if Ino-Shika-Cho didn't do so also.
- He says Kakashi kept up with Gated Gai, as if they weren't merely attacking in unison. Like Darui and Raikage.
- He says Kakashi outsped Obito( who is as fast as Minato?) ignorning that his mindset was fucked up and he purposley threw that fight in Kakashi's favor. Same reason we don't bring up Obito kicking Kakashi's ass a few chapters earlier. 
- Then likes to act like Minato couldn't keep up with Kakashi's Kamui because he asked if he warped the Statue away. Which is simply Minato not being sure that Kakashi moved the Statue away. Nothing more.


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## Android (May 7, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Thank you!


you're welcome


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> IIRC , kakashi has 4.5 or 5 in speed
> jiraiya has 4.5 - 5
> add in senjutsu buffs and jiraiya is comfortably above kakashi



Quit using outdated feats.

SM Jiraiya failed to defeat 3 Weaker Paths using guerrilla tactics whereas in CQC, Kakashi could fend himself against multiple V2 Jin amped up by Rikudou's Chakra, Obito's, and Hashirama's Senju Chakra along with the Sharingan and Rinnegan and these Jin were so quick that KCM Naruto admitted that he couldn't even speak when dealing with the Base Jin because they were very quick.

SM Jiraiya isn't comfortably above War Arc Kakashi, quite the opposite actually.


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## Android (May 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Quit using outdated feats.
> 
> SM Jiraiya failed to defeat 3 Weaker Paths using guerrilla tactics whereas in CQC, Kakashi could fend himself against multiple V2 Jin amped up by Rikudou's Chakra, Obito's, and Hashirama's Senju Chakra along with the Sharingan and Rinnegan and these Jin were so quick that KCM Naruto admitted that he couldn't even speak when dealing with the Base Jin because they were very quick.
> 
> SM Jiraiya isn't comfortably above War Arc Kakashi, quite the opposite actually.


 
and those pain paths wheren't powered with rikudo chakra , and nagato's energy , and the rinnegan ? 
also , you're wrong , jiraiya defeated those paths 
 kakashi was struggling against zabuza
 while we have kisame states that the 7 swordmen were nothing compared to jiraiya 
 also , the databook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what the fans want to believe
kakashi has 4.5 - 5 in speed 
jiraiya has 4.5 - 5
add in senjutsu buffs and jiraiya is comfortably above kakashi


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> and those pain paths wheren't powered with rikudo chakra , and nagato's energy , and the rinnegan ?
> also , you're wrong , jiraiya defeated those paths



The corpses only contained Nagato's Weakened Chakra and Rikudou Chakra.

Obito's contained the Jin's Chakra, Obito's own Unparalleled Chakra, Rikudou's Chakra, and Hashirama's Chakra along with the Sharingan. They were faster, and reflexively superior. Without even tapping into their Bijuu's Chakra, they were considered to be so fast that KCM Naruto said, "So fast ... I can't even talk!" While tapping into their Bijuu's Chakra, they're substantially faster, so feats-wise, they're superior to the Paths that SM Jiraiya couldn't fight against with Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and guerrilla tactics.

Jiraiya needed Genjutsu to defeat the Paths. Kakashi could fend himself just fine with straight-up Taijutsu and Raikiri.



> kakashi was struggling against zabuza



And Zabuza had an ability well-suited to counter Kakashi's Sharingan.



> while we have kisame states that the 7 swordmen were nothing compared to jiraiya



Still using outdated statements I see? Kisame's statement can't be taken that literally when he stated that Itachi's title paled in comparison to Jiraiya's despite the fact that he could trash a Sannin when he wanted to.



> also , the databook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what the fans want to believe
> kakashi has 4.5 - 5 in speed
> jiraiya has 4.5 - 5



Databook 3 doesn't cover the War Arc.


> add in senjutsu buffs and jiraiya is comfortably above kakashi



Not really.


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## Saru (May 7, 2016)

You restricted Jiraiya, so I think he'll definitely lose.

Jiraiya can't afford to hold back against someone of Kakashi's caliber, and he's not beating Kakashi while gimped either.


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## Android (May 7, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> The corpses only contained Nagato's and Rikudou Chakra.
> 
> Obito's contained the Jin's Chakra, Obito's own Unparalleled Chakra, Rikudou's Chakra, and Hashirama's Chakra along with the Sharingan. They were faster, and reflexively superior. Without even tapping into their Bijuu's Chakra, they were considered to be so fast that KCM Naruto said, "So fast ... I can't even talk!" While tapping into their Bijuu's Chakra, they're substantially faster, so feats-wise, they're superior to the Paths that SM Jiraiya couldn't fight against with Taijutsu, Ninjutsu, and guerrilla tactics.
> Jiraiya needed Genjutsu to defeat the Paths. Kakashi could fend himself just fine with straight-up Taijutsu and Raikiri.



utter crap , taijutsu and raikiri ?  , his raikiri failed to even land a scrach , and he had gai , naruto , and bee by his side , son goku and kokou were attacking bee and naruto , all what kakashi did what cutting off a few chakra arms 
after that he was shitting himself
also pain paths had shared vision , and jiraiya had absolutly no knowledge about that
look at this bullshit 
kakashi was struggling against zabuza and fodder zetsu
it's time to cut the bullshit please


UchihaX28 said:


> And Zabuza had an ability well-suited to counter Kakashi's Sharingan.


hiden mist , great . jiraiya has dust cloud , moving on


UchihaX28 said:


> Still using outdated statements I see?


no , i use manga statement , it's butter than the nonsense you're using 


UchihaX28 said:


> Kisame's statement can't be taken that literally when he stated that Itachi's title paled in comparison to Jiraiya's


sure , the uchiha tards and their excuses  


UchihaX28 said:


> despite the fact that he could trash a Sannin when he wanted to.


  


UchihaX28 said:


> Not really.


 


That said , even if the databook doesn't cover the war arc , they both have 4.5/5 in speed , are you saying kakashi will get more than 5 in speed ? 
and , even if kakashi was faster / which he's not / that still not enuff to defeat jiraiya
do you think A can beat itachi cuz he's just faster ? 
by your logic , minato should be stronger than hashirama because he's faster 
uchiha tards and their nonsense 
smoke bombs , dust cloud , and sensing counters his sharingan
jiraiya's taijutsu and frog kata shits on kakashi's
better elements , for covrage , rasengan variants , underworld swamp , better physical states , more experience
kakashi stands no chance


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## Finalbeta (May 7, 2016)

SM Jiraiya wins very easily
Actually wins without SM too

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Rocky (May 7, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Taka Sasuke (with reactions/reflexes and physical speed below Itachi's) clowned V1 Ei.


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2016)

And that's why Sasuke reacted with a Susano'o right?


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## Empathy (May 7, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi was able to keep up to a certain extent with Gated Gai's speed, more than once *(5)* and together with Gai managed to counterblitz the Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 (who were ganbanging and stomping around KCM Naruto and Hachibi Bee): Kakashi was fast enough to land Raikiri on them, to cut their chakra arms off with Raiden and to perfectly keep up with them in a prolonged fight until they transformed in the full forms:
> 
> ... this
> 
> ...



_"Three of them are coming at you, Naruto!!"_

Six jinchuuriki means that Naruto fought three, while Kakashi and Gai fought the other three between the two of them and were batted away at the same time Naruto was outperforming them by fighting more jinchuuriki, catching one of their fists in his palm, and not getting batted away. [1] When the number of Obito's opponents doubled from two to four, Obito's coordinated tactics where they were passing Naruto around like a volleyball, switched to just having the jinchuuriki clumsily charge in the same direction all at once.


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## Ryuzaki (May 7, 2016)

The fact that both have full knowledge here means they'll both resort to their trumps quicker, Kakashi would be helpless in the face of Gama Rinsho but everything else can be dodged, countered or predicted. If Kakashi cannot resort to his trump (Kamui) fast enough, then he'll lose here. It's reasonable to suggest that he'd go for that quickly given the respect he shows to Jiraiya throughout the manga, so Kamui is the only valid option for Kakashi's success. It's useless to fool around with ninjutsu against Jiraiya, I think Kakashi would know that given the full knowledge aspect, in a best case scenario, he'd probably use an RKB as a distraction while he preps Kamui.


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## Hasan (May 8, 2016)

Jiraiya's severed head rolls over in Timespace. Given complete intel, Kakashi benefits more from having to not expend chakra on various tactics, before deciding upon Mangekyou. It also does not help that, by the war arc, he was using it more freely—having become accustomed to it. This battle ends as quickly as it starts.



Hussain said:


> Jiraiya would destroy him even in base mid-difficult at most.
> 
> War Arc Kakashi still needed a massive amount of help to deal with Zabuza and from there with the other 7 swordsmen
> Same people whom Kisame said they are nothing in comparison to Jiraiya.
> ...


It must be hard for someone, who preaches teamwork almost religiously, to perform solo with a whole platoon at his side that includes his bosom buddy.


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## Yoko (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> also , the databook >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what the fans want to believe
> kakashi has 4.5 - 5 in speed
> jiraiya has 4.5 - 5
> add in senjutsu buffs and jiraiya is comfortably above kakashi



I'm not sure if people truly are ignorant of this fact or choose to dismiss it because it is convenient, but the third databook caps at chapter 400, well after Jiraiya's death.  Meanwhile, Kakashi lived and fought over the span of another 300 chapters.  Kakashi had room for improvement and showed it in the War Arc. 

But feel free to continue using an outdated databook, where the current two strongest people in the world have inferior stats to the likes of Asuma.  Because even though Naruto now has teleportation level speed, DB3 says he has a 3.5, which is below a 4.5, which means Asuma is faster than him.

Am I doing this right?



Hussain said:


> Can you tell me how many characters Kakashi needed at the war arc to deal with a freaking Zabuza?



You're misinterpreting the most convenient method with a "need."  Kakashi didn't "need" those guys - he's proven he could beat Zabuza back in Part I.  He had a specialized War squad standing right behind him - he isn't going to tell them to stand there and watch as he fights solo.  He's going to tell them to use their skillset to get the job done quicker and more efficiently.


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## Android (May 8, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I'm not sure if people truly are ignorant of this fact or choose to dismiss it because it is convenient, but the third databook caps at chapter 400, well after Jiraiya's death. Meanwhile, Kakashi lived and fought over the span of another 300 chapters. Kakashi had room for improvement and showed it in the War Arc.
> 
> But feel free to continue using an outdated databook, where the current two strongest people in the world have inferior stats to the likes of Asuma. Because even though Naruto now has teleportation level speed, DB3 says he has a 3.5, which is below a 4.5, which means Asuma is faster than him.
> 
> Am I doing this right?


lol no 
it's true that the databook doesn't cover the war arc , but those datas are the highest anyone can get 
which means even if kakashi improved his speed , he can only jump from 4.5 to 5 
which is still not enuff to put him far above jiraiya who has 4.5 in base 
also , people like to talk about this war arc kakashi like some freak shinobi or somthing 
the onlything that was stated or implayed for him , was that his chakra and stamina got better and that's it 


Yoko said:


> You're misinterpreting the most convenient method with a "need." Kakashi didn't "need" those guys - he's proven he could beat Zabuza back in Part I. He had a specialized War squad standing right behind him - he isn't going to tell them to stand there and watch as he fights solo. He's going to tell them to use their skillset to get the job done quicker and more efficiently.


lol wrong again 
He needed that Yamanaka shinobi to control him in order to sense Zabuza's place, and the Nara clan shinobi to use his shadow style technique on him
conjuring up a huge one
and of course the Suna fodder shinobi to seal him, but that is not very important i guess 

without this needed help , Kakashi would have never been able to find Zabuza without the sensing ability that he does not possess 
He did not win because he can do it alone, but because of the help he got from the shinobi with him

also , zabuza is just one of the 7 swordmen who kisame said , they were nothing comared to jiraiya , did he not say that ?


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## Yoko (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> lol no
> it's true that the databook doesn't cover the war arc , but those datas are the highest anyone can get



5 is the cap, which means that once you hit 5 any further improvements aren't reflected.  See Itachi's 5 in Genjutsu vs Kurenai's and Tayuya's.  See Guy's 5 in Taijutsu vs. Tsunade's.  It's clear that one is superior to the other despite an identical stat, but that isn't reflected once you hit roof tier.



> lol wrong again
> He needed that Yamanaka shinobi to control him in order to sense Zabuza's place, and the Nara clan shinobi to use his shadow style technique on him



Again, he didn't _need_ them.  He used them because they were there and were more convenient than summoning his dogs and having them sniff Zabuza out.  Which was exactly how he beat Zabuza the first go around. 



> also , zabuza is just one of the 7 swordmen who kisame said , they were nothing comared to jiraiya , did he not say that ?



When did I ever imply that Zabuza is on Jiraiya's level?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> clones , smoke bombs , dust cloud , senjutsu sensing , and a rasengan with frog karate can't solo ?


They can't solo on the basis that you listed more than one thing.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (May 8, 2016)

I am not sure where people get the "Jiraiya has got lots of  experience" bullshit from. 

He was going around writing books...not gaining "battle exp"..... 

From the looks of things, Jiraiya has fought nowhere near the amount of top tiers that Kakashi has fought.

Additionally, I only ever see this "Experience" bullshit when it's about Jiraiya.....yet no such comment when talking about Tsunade, Orochimaru, Hiruzen, Kakuzu etc.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ryuzaki (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> also , people like to talk about this war arc kakashi like some freak shinobi or somthing
> the onlything that was stated or implayed for him , was that his chakra and stamina got better and that's it


Kakashi's chakra/stamina shot through the War Arc, that was the only thing holding him back, with the boost he got, he's more than capable of killing Jiraiya (in base) at any given point and making SM Jiraiya's head roll in Kamuiland.


Sapherosth said:


> I am not sure where people get the "Jiraiya has got lots of  experience" bullshit from.
> 
> He was going around writing books...not gaining "battle exp".....
> 
> ...


Totally used Kakuzu with experience in the other Ranking Akatsuki thread.


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## Android (May 8, 2016)

> I am not sure where people get the "Jiraiya has got lots of  experience" bullshit from.


maybe because he's the sensei of kakashi's sensei 
or maybe because they wanted jiraiya to be the hokage instead of kakashi 


> He was going around writing books...not gaining "battle exp".....


books that kakashi reads almost all the freaking time 



> From the looks of things, Jiraiya has fought nowhere near the amount of top tiers that Kakashi has fought.
> 
> Additionally, I only ever see this "Experience" bullshit when it's about Jiraiya.....yet no such comment when talking about Tsunade, Orochimaru, Hiruzen, Kakuzu etc.


so , does kakashi stomp itachi because he fought more top tiers than itachi 
put your love for itachi aside and answer this [/QUOTE]


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## Android (May 8, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi's chakra/stamina shot through the War Arc, that was the only thing holding him back, with the boost he got, he's more than capable of killing Jiraiya (in base) at any given point and making SM Jiraiya's head roll in Kamuiland.
> Totally used Kakuzu with experience in the other Ranking Akatsuki thread.


< killing jiraiya in base 
< could barely beat zabuza with lots of help
< one of the 7 swordmen kisame said they were nothing infront of jiraiya 
even kakashi himself will laugh his ass of reading this


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## Ryuzaki (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> < killing jiraiya in base
> < could barely beat zabuza with lots of help
> < one of the 7 swordmen kisame said they were nothing infront of jiraiya
> even kakashi himself will laugh his ass of reading this


The squad wasn't required, it just made the process much more efficient, but sure base Jiraiya magically avoids kamui because you say so


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## UchihaX28 (May 8, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> < killing jiraiya in base
> < could barely beat zabuza with lots of help
> < one of the 7 swordmen kisame said they were nothing infront of jiraiya
> even kakashi himself will laugh his ass of reading this



Zabuza had an ability that's effective against the Sharingan. Even then, when you consider the fact that Zabuza was chosen to be a candidate for Edo Tensei, that means he's very strong and powerful enough to be relevant even in the War Arc. Zabuza was also never really on Kakashi's level. He was close, but not quite considering Kakashi could strike his arm much faster than Zabuza could swing his sword during their clash.

And yet Kisame had no problems going head to head with Hebi Sasuke who destroyed Orochimaru right? Quit trolling and using Outdated Feats. He had no gripes clashing with Hebi Sasuke, Suigetsu, and Jugo, the beings who Pain considered troublesome and a threat to the Akatsuki.

No, Kakashi wouldn't. He'd be laughing his off about how you actually think Base Jiraiya is relevant in the War Arc.


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## Android (May 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Zabuza had an ability that's effective against the Sharingan. Even then, when you consider the fact that Zabuza was chosen to be a candidate for Edo Tensei, that means he's very strong and powerful enough to be relevant even in the War Arc. Zabuza was also never really on Kakashi's level. He was close, but not quite considering Kakashi could strike his arm much faster than Zabuza could swing his sword during their clash.
> 
> And yet Kisame had no problems going head to head with Hebi Sasuke who destroyed Orochimaru right? Quit trolling and using Outdated Feats. He had no gripes clashing with Hebi Sasuke, Suigetsu, and Jugo, the beings who Pain considered troublesome and a threat to the Akatsuki.
> 
> No, Kakashi wouldn't. He'd be laughing his off about how you actually think Base Jiraiya is relevant in the War Arc.


what is this crap , can't you people read a simple piece of fiction ? 
Zabuza had an ability that's effective against the sharingan ??? hiden mist you mean ?? 
not an argument , in fact a 100 % weird argument 
you do know , that jiraiya has dust cloud , that's also a effective against the sharingan , just ike how it was effective against the rennigan with shared vision 
jiraiya uses it , and blocks kakashi's LOS , after that it's GG , since kakashi has no sensing abilities , either a frog stomach folllowed with a rasengan or a frog karate to the face 

and a big LOL at hebi sasuke destroying orochimaru when the dude was sick , half dead , screaming in pain , armless and jutsu-less 
even sasuke himself admitted this 
don't even know what you're trying to prove with the rest , since the feats and hype are all at my side


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> what is this crap , can't you people read a simple piece of fiction ?
> Zabuza had an ability that's effective against the sharingan ??? hiden mist you mean ??
> not an argument , in fact a 100 % weird argument
> * you do know , that jiraiya has dust cloud , that's also a effective against the sharingan , just ike how it was effective against the rennigan with shared vision  *
> jiraiya uses it , and blocks kakashi's LOS , after that it's GG , since kakashi has no sensing abilities , either a frog stomach folllowed with a rasengan or a frog karate to the face



This incomparable because Zabuza's a master at Silent Killing. Jiraiya is not, so Jiraiya simply cannot diminish Kakashi's perception of sound the way Zabuza can. That's literally the only way Zabuza's ability is effective here. Other than that, Jiraiya's technique won't be as effective here because he's not as effective with Silent Killing and all of Kakashi's senses are excellent when he's highly trained as an Anbu Ninja to begin with.

Besides, couldn't Kakashi just preempt it and use a Katon anyways?



> and a big LOL at hebi sasuke destroying orochimaru when the dude was sick , half dead , screaming in pain , armless and jutsu-less
> even sasuke himself admitted this
> don't even know what you're trying to prove with the rest , since the feats and hype are all at my side



Did Kisame know this? No he didn't. For all he knows, Hebi Sasuke took down a Sannin and he was confident in taking down Hebi Sasuke along with Suigetsu and Jugo who were threats to the Akatsuki. A Sannin level ninja really isn't a threat to Kisame, so using this as evidence is pretty pathetic.


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## Veracity (May 9, 2016)

The Sannin aren't a threat to Kisame? Isn't that like outright against canon statement or ..?


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The Sannin aren't a threat to Kisame? Isn't that like outright against canon statement or ..?



 Not as threatening as it was made to be in Part 1.

 He's going up against guys like Killer Bee or a team such as Team Hebi with absolutely no worries. Itachi actually had Kisame block the path intentionally because he knew he'd be powerful enough to force Sasuke to go in alone.


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## Veracity (May 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Not as threatening as it was made to be in Part 1.
> 
> He's going up against guys like Killer Bee or a team such as Team Hebi with absolutely no worries. Itachi actually had Kisame block the path intentionally because he knew he'd be powerful enough to force Sasuke to go in alone.


It isn't a databook statement and it wasnt retconned in anyway, therefore it shouldn't be ignored simply because it was in part 1.  Should we just ignore all of part 1 now?

-His abilities work well against KB, that is why he performed at that level.

- Kisame( as well as any mid tier kage) would damage Taka enough for them to catch a super quick L against someone of Itachi's caliber, so there's that. That doesn't mean he would win.


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> It isn't a databook statement and it wasnt retconned in anyway, therefore it shouldn't be ignored simply because it was in part 1.  Should we just ignore all of part 1 now?



 It was a retcon if we compare P2 Kisame's feats to P1 Kisame's.



> -His abilities work well against KB, that is why he performed at that level.



 They would work well against Jiraiya as well considering Suiton > Katon and that he can still absorb Jiraiya's chakra regardless.



> - Kisame( as well as any mid tier kage) would damage Taka enough for them to catch a super quick L against someone of Itachi's caliber, so there's that. That doesn't mean he would win.



 Kisame's arrogant, but he's not that stupid. He wouldn't go in to stop someone who he believed managed to kill a Sannin unless he was stronger than said ninja. Same goes for Itachi.


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## Veracity (May 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It was a retcon if we compare P2 Kisame's feats to P1 Kisame's.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Kisame didn't have many feats in part 1?? Plus power inflation was at play, not a retcon. He still would be weaker than Jirayia by your logic as Part 2 Jirayia is a lot more impressive than his Part 1 incarnation.

He can absorb anyone's chakra, That doesn't mean he's suited to fighting them. Killed Bee was running around with massively powerful bjuii chakra flaring from his skin. Jirayia doesn't have that problem lol and waterdome doesn't necessarily work against individuals with top tier summoning contracts. Most on the forums would agree that Jirayia would win, let alone be a threat.

"Kisame is arrogant", is the most important thing I got from that post. Kisame doesn't have to win anyway to slow down or injure Sasuke BTW.  Him stepping in front of Sasuke is hardly enough information to his the forums with some ABC logic and assume Kisame can beat an individual he already admitted inferiority to.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Kisame didn't have many feats in part 1?? Plus power inflation was at play, not a retcon. He still would be weaker than Jirayia by your logic as Part 2 Jirayia is a lot more impressive than his Part 1 incarnation.



 Part 1 Jiraiya also doesn't have that many feats at all, so it really works both ways. At least in Kisame's defense, he not only displayed superior "flashy" jutsu that Part 1 Kisame never has, but there is a disparity in his feats when we witness Part 2 Kisame demolished Base Gai in mere Taijutsu whose received superior portrayal and stats in terms of CQC compared to Asuma who caused P1 Kisame to struggle a bit.

 We can't really claim at all that Base Jiraiya suffered from P2 inflation at all. He only suffered from power inflation by receiving Sage Mode as a result.



> He can absorb anyone's chakra, That doesn't mean he's suited to fighting them. Killed Bee was running around with massively powerful bjuii chakra flaring from his skin. Jirayia doesn't have that problem lol and waterdome doesn't necessarily work against individuals with top tier summoning contracts. Most on the forums would agree that Jirayia would win, let alone be a threat.



 I'm actually going to drop this point because it's irrelevant.



> "Kisame is arrogant", is the most important thing I got from that post. Kisame doesn't have to win anyway to slow down or injure Sasuke BTW.  Him stepping in front of Sasuke is hardly enough information to his the forums with some ABC logic and assume Kisame can beat an individual he already admitted inferiority to.



 And yet you forgot that Itachi intentionally had Kisame block the path as to pressure Sasuke to go in alone? Let me guess, do you think Itachi is also arrogant or that he intentionally sent Kisame in to get his ass whooped while Sasuke sent his whole platoon in to fight Itachi with him? I seriously hope not.

 Your point has nothing to do with what I'm trying to get across. The mere fact that Kisame was sent in to fight Hebi Sasuke who killed a Sannin suggests that Kisame's not really scared of a Sannin at all if he's willing to go up against someone who could defeat a Sannin.


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## FlamingRain (May 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Without the Gama Trio Kakashi has a decent shot. Jiraiya can circumvent Kamui with Bunshin & Ma's Dustcloud but Kakashi has a way better Bunshin game, J-Man's probably going to get warped sooner or later.



How is Kakashi's Bunshin game way better than Jiraiya's?


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## Itachі (May 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How is Kakashi's Bunshin game way better than Jiraiya's?



He's just more analytical and has better feats, though Jiraiya hasn't had much of a chance to shine. I still think Kakashi would outdo him if both performed to their full potential. Though saying that Kakashi's 'way better' might be an exaggeration.


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## Veracity (May 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Part 1 Jiraiya also doesn't have that many feats at all, so it really works both ways. At least in Kisame's defense, he not only displayed superior "flashy" jutsu that Part 1 Kisame never has, but there is a disparity in his feats when we witness Part 2 Kisame demolished Base Gai in mere Taijutsu whose received superior portrayal and stats in terms of CQC compared to Asuma who caused P1 Kisame to struggle a bit.
> 
> We can't really claim at all that Base Jiraiya suffered from P2 inflation at all. He only suffered from power inflation by receiving Sage Mode as a result.
> 
> ...


It doesn't work both ways because Part 1 Jirayia has SOOOO much more hype than Kisame. I mean Kisame admitted inferiority and that's the main point. Kisame doesn't have any defense here. You can name all of Kisames feats/jutsu and they still all fall short of Jirayia pulling our Sage Mode in part 2.  Kisame also never really was serious against Asuma. If it was a all out battle then it would have turned out much different.

Part 2 power inflation effects every character.

Who would Kisame be getting his ass whopped by? Him pressuring Hebi to send Sasuke in alone is sort of the point. He didn't actually have to fight them.

Kisame not being scared to fight a Sannin doesn't mean a Sannin isn't a threat to him. Which is exactly what you initially stated. I think we have also witnessed much weaker characters rush in to fight stronger characters before...


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## Atlantic Storm (May 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How is Kakashi's Bunshin game way better than Jiraiya's?


Depends on what you mean by 'Bunshin game' and how you measure it. Jiraiya has better stamina and, as a result, can use more clones without wearing himself out. His fighting style and repertoire also lends itself better to simultaneous attacks with Kage Bunshin. On the other hand, Kakashi has greater variety, uses them for feints and has on more than one occasion checkmated people with his tricks. The lightning variant of Kage Bunshin would also be particularly potent on Jiraiya, since he uses a lot of taijutsu.


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## FlamingRain (May 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He's just more analytical and has better feats, though Jiraiya hasn't had much of a chance to shine. I still think Kakashi would outdo him if both performed to their full potential. Though saying that Kakashi's 'way better' might be an exaggeration.



How is Kakashi supposed to outdo Jiraiya were you to put their Bunshin games against each other, though?

Kakashi can make Bunshin that burst into Raiton when struck, but Jiraiya prefers ranged Jutsu. Jiraiya also has a lot more stamina to make clones with, and when Jiraiya is in Sage Mode Jiraiya's clones pop up in Sage Mode as well. Jiraiya's clones can also turn into shadows. Even if Kakashi is more analytical Jiraiya is intelligent _enough_ that whatever disparity in analyses between those two ninja there might be probably isn't going to outweigh Jiraiya's other advantages in that regard- Jiraiya did start out against Nagato expecting various types of Jutsu, yet noticed that each body was repeatedly using a single type of Jutsu as well as how each body kept their eyes on the others, and came up with a plan to exploit those factors that involved a Bunshin.


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## Itachі (May 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> How is Kakashi supposed to outdo Jiraiya were you to put their Bunshin games against each other, though?
> 
> Kakashi can make Bunshin that burst into Raiton when struck, but Jiraiya prefers ranged Jutsu. Jiraiya also has a lot more stamina to make clones with, and when Jiraiya is in Sage Mode Jiraiya's clones pop up in Sage Mode as well. Jiraiya's clones can also turn into shadows. Even if Kakashi is more analytical Jiraiya is intelligent _enough_ that whatever disparity in analyses between those two ninja there might be probably isn't going to outweigh Jiraiya's other advantages in that regard- Jiraiya did start out against Nagato expecting various types of Jutsu, yet noticed that each body was repeatedly using a single type of Jutsu as well as how each body kept their eyes on the others, and came up with a plan to exploit those factors that involved a Bunshin.



Wasn't Jiraiya an imperfect sage because he couldn't properly balance Natural Energy? He may be able to make more Bunshin but I doubt that he'd be able to do anything useful with them unless he just used them as sacrificial pieces. I don't think Jiraiya's Bunshin would be very useful if he split his Chakra more than three times either.


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## FlamingRain (May 10, 2016)

He was a successful Sage because pigmentation appeared around Jiraiya's eyes. Jiraiya blended too much natural energy when using Sage Mode, though, which resulted in Jiraiya developing froggy features. But Jiraiya shouldn't be at risk of throwing off Sage Mode by using Kage Bunshin, because unlike Naruto Jiraiya is continuously supplied with natural energy by Ma and Pa.


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## cctr1 (May 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> This incomparable because Zabuza's a master at Silent Killing. Jiraiya is not, so Jiraiya simply cannot diminish Kakashi's perception of sound the way Zabuza can. That's literally the only way Zabuza's ability is effective here. Other than that, Jiraiya's technique won't be as effective here because he's not as effective with Silent Killing and all of Kakashi's senses are excellent when he's highly trained as an Anbu Ninja to begin with.
> 
> Besides, couldn't Kakashi just preempt it and use a Katon anyways?


LOL , now you're just helpless 
when ma used her dust cloud against pain did any of the paths
know where was naruto ????
where was chikushoudo ????
did they know that they were inside gamabunta's mouth ?????
hell , did they even know that pa throw gamabunta 50 metres in the air
the same paths that two of them were dancing around kakashi 
the answer is no , they didn't / couldn't know , see , understand shit
FFS man , those paths have shared vision and they couldn't even see what happened to chikushoudo 
kakashi would be as helpless as he was against edo zabuza , except this time he doesn't have a sensor type to help him
jiraiya ambush him , nukes his ass with a rasengan , or smashs his head with a frog karate 


UchihaX28 said:


> Did Kisame know this? No he didn't. For all he knows, Hebi Sasuke took down a Sannin and he was confident in taking down Hebi Sasuke along with Suigetsu and Jugo who were threats to the Akatsuki. A Sannin level ninja really isn't a threat to Kisame, so using this as evidence is pretty pathetic.


 and he has the nerve to talk about pathetic argument
sasuke defeating a weak helpless orochimaru says nothing about jiraiya , a guy who kisame blatantly admitted his superiority over him , the rest is irrelevant , just a lil attempts to try and force the opposite of something has been established by manga canon 
tho i would exactly expect something like this from you my friend 
*allofmylooools @* a sannin ninja isn't a threat to kisame 
how about jiraiya who kisame shit himself on the thought of facing him even when he had itachi as a back up 
or what about tsunade 

or war arc orochimaru who's powered with zetsu's body + hashirama's cells + powerful edo tensei 

cuz that orochimaru is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> itachi who is >> kisame 
dosn't itachi's wankers always say '' hurr durr plot change itachi is stronger '' 
well , change has indeed happened , and now itachi is nothing more than just a '' mouse '' to orochimaru 
or should i say '' cat-chimaru ''


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## Itachі (May 10, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> He was a successful Sage because pigmentation appeared around Jiraiya's eyes. Jiraiya blended too much natural energy when using Sage Mode, though, which resulted in Jiraiya developing froggy features. But Jiraiya shouldn't be at risk of throwing off Sage Mode by using Kage Bunshin, because unlike Naruto Jiraiya is continuously supplied with natural energy by Ma and Pa.



He was successful yeah, but he wasn't a perfect sage. I agree that he's not going to rid himself of Sage Mode but I don't think he can control many Bunshin, didn't he only make one against Pain? If he can't balance the natural energy properly within himself, I'm not sure whether he'd be able to balance it properly when more than a few Bunshin are involved.


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## FlamingRain (May 10, 2016)

Naruto's issue was that if he made too many it could interfere with the ones already focusing Sage Chakra (as it would suddenly change the amount of normal Chakra those Bunshin had), Naruto was not simply unable to control multiple clones while in Sage Mode. Jiraiya doesn't leave clones at Mount Myōboku to blend Sage Chakra like Naruto, though- he blends it himself while Ma and Pa replenish the natural energy. The Bunshin wouldn't be able to remain in Sage Mode indefinitely like the original Jiraiya, but they'd still be able to be used as normal clones would be.

I mean most high level ninja probably wouldn't use more than a few (or couple) clones at once anyway. When I said Jiraiya had more stamina to use making clones I meant that Jiraiya would be able to repeatedly set them up more times than Kakashi could.


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> It doesn't work both ways because Part 1 Jirayia has SOOOO much more hype than Kisame. I mean Kisame admitted inferiority and that's the main point. Kisame doesn't have any defense here. You can name all of Kisames feats/jutsu and they still all fall short of Jirayia pulling our Sage Mode in part 2.  Kisame also never really was serious against Asuma. If it was a all out battle then it would have turned out much different.



Honestly, Jiraiya already admitted that all of the members of the Akatsuki developed their skills along the way, so I wouldn't be surprised if Kisame grew stronger since then considering Deidara developed new skills as well, same as Sasori.

Jiraiya had more hype than Kisame, sure, but that works both ways as well such as Jiraiya being superior to Pain because he received more hype. It doesn't work like that. None of the Akatsuki members aside from Itachi and Orochimaru received hype because they were the only relevant members of the Akatsuki at that time.

I agree, it would've turned out differently, but did P1 Kisame dominate Asuma by a large margin? No he didn't compared to Gai who felt like he needed the 6th Gates to contend with P2 Kisame despite the fact that Kisame wasn't use flashy jutsu and the fact that Base Gai alone is superior to Asuma.



> Part 2 power inflation effects every character.



And he did because Jiraiya received Sage Mode.



> Who would Kisame be getting his ass whopped by? Him pressuring Hebi to send Sasuke in alone is sort of the point. He didn't actually have to fight them.



And Itachi intentionally had Kisame stop him because he knew Kisame would be strong enough to force Sasuke to go in alone. Hell, Deidara himself was anxious and wanted to defeat Orochimaru and Orochimaru praised Sasori's abilities considering he needed a double agent to spy on Sasori, so Sannins aren't necessarily a threat to the Akatsuki.



> Kisame not being scared to fight a Sannin doesn't mean a Sannin isn't a threat to him. Which is exactly what you initially stated. I think we have also witnessed much weaker characters rush in to fight stronger characters before...



He was hesitant about fighting Jiraiya. More than enough evidence to suggest that P2 Kisame grew to the point that he was capable of battling a Sannin.


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## Mithos (May 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> He was hesitant about fighting Jiraiya. More than enough evidence to suggest that P2 Kisame grew to the point that he was capable of battling a Sannin.



Such as? 

Nothing in the story or how he was portrayed seemed to imply that he got stronger. Showing greater feats with more screen time and with power inflation is not evidence that he grew to the Sannin's level. He said Jiraiya was on another level than him -- that's a big gap to cover. Kisame was also going to get one-shotted by Jiraiya's jutsu without Itachi, let's not forget.


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## Ryuzaki (May 10, 2016)

Kakashi's more versatile and has executed his bunshins better than Jiraiya, that's why his bunshin game is stronger than Jiraiya's. RKB would put Jiraiya at considerable risk since he likes to fight in close-range combat.


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## cctr1 (May 10, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi's more versatile and has executed his bunshins better than Jiraiya, that's why his bunshin game is stronger than Jiraiya's. RKB would put Jiraiya at considerable risk since he likes to fight in close-range combat.


senjutsu sensing and sensing barrier say no 

inb4 jiraiya doesn't have sensing even tho the databook confirme he has


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## UchihaX28 (May 10, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Such as?
> 
> Nothing in the story or how he was portrayed seemed to imply that he got stronger. Showing greater feats with more screen time and with power inflation is not evidence that he grew to the Sannin's level. He said Jiraiya was on another level than him -- that's a big gap to cover. Kisame was also going to get one-shotted by Jiraiya's jutsu without Itachi, let's not forget.



 Sure, but when Base Jiraiya doesn't receive any feats that signifies that he's improved in any sort of way, it's hard to simply compare P2 Kisame and P2 Base Jiraiya and claim that Base Jiraiya shits all over Kisame just because he admitted it in Part 1 when P2 Kisame actually has feats that outstrip his feats in Part 1 whereas Base Jiraiya has absolutely none. Just because Part 1 Kisame admitted inferiority to Base Jiraiya doesn't necessarily imply that a Stronger Kisame would still be inferior to Base Jiraiya either.


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## FlamingRain (May 10, 2016)

Jiraiya doesn't prefer to use Taijutsu. Jiraiya has opened every single on-panel fight he participated in using Ninjutsu, and once those fights started relied more on ranged Jutsu than melee by a mile. If Jiraiya hits a clone of Kakashi it's most likely going to be with a projectile, and if not, a Rasengan (which would still keep Jiraiya from being in contact with the clone when it popped). Then there's the chance that even if Jiraiya struck one of the clones of Kakashi in melee it would be a clone of Jiraiya that did it, a chance that grows when you consider that Jiraiya would reasonably be aware of Kakashi's cautious fighting style.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ryuzaki (May 10, 2016)

cctr1 said:


> senjutsu sensing and sensing barrier say no
> 
> inb4 jiraiya doesn't have sensing even tho the databook confirme he has


The discussion was about bunshin execution, it doesn't matter if he sensing or not since the original discussion was a comparison not an outcome of a fight or a 1 vs. 1 scenario. You should really learn to pay attention to context, otherwise you'll just look dense by arriving at inaccurate conclusions.


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## Mithos (May 11, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Sure, but when Base Jiraiya doesn't receive any feats that signifies that he's improved in any sort of way, it's hard to simply compare P2 Kisame and P2 Base Jiraiya and claim that Base Jiraiya shits all over Kisame just because he admitted it in Part 1 when P2 Kisame actually has feats that outstrip his feats in Part 1 whereas Base Jiraiya has absolutely none. Just because Part 1 Kisame admitted inferiority to Base Jiraiya doesn't necessarily imply that a Stronger Kisame would still be inferior to Base Jiraiya either.



A lack of feats shouldn't negate a direct statement. 

Base Jiraiyas has never had a full-out battle, so while he doesn't have feats putting him above Kisame, he also doesn't have feats that contradict Kisame's admission. 

Kisame has feats that outstrip his part 1 feats because of power-inflation.


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## UchihaX28 (May 11, 2016)

Mithos said:


> A lack of feats shouldn't negate a direct statement.



 That wasn't the point. The point was that P1 Kisame admitting inferiority to Base Jiraiya doesn't indicate that P2 Kisame is inferior to Base Jiraiya when his P2 feats outstrip his abilities in P1 whereas the same doesn't apply to Jiraiya. Now, if Base Jiraiya improved as well, then you can make a point, but he didn't.



> Base Jiraiyas has never had a full-out battle, so while he doesn't have feats putting him above Kisame, he also doesn't have feats that contradict Kisame's admission.



 P2 Kisame's feats alone should contradict Kisame's admission when that statement as made when he was in P1 when he was blatantly shown to be weaker. It's like claiming P2 Kakashi is still trash compared to Orochimaru due to a statement Kakashi made in Part 1. Jiraiya outright stated that the Akatsuki members do develop their skills along the way, so what's to say that Kisame didn't do the same when other Akatsuki members were shown that they did?

 I don't get it. Jiraiya outright admitted that he failed to rescue Orochimaru in Part 1 yet people have the nerve to claim that SM Jiraiya can beat Orochimaru. Maybe it's because of feats?



> Kisame has feats that outstrip his part 1 feats because of power-inflation.



 Which is irrelevant when power inflation applied to Kisame whereas it didn't apply to Base Jiraiya.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Mithos (May 12, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> That wasn't the point. The point was that P1 Kisame admitting inferiority to Base Jiraiya doesn't indicate that P2 Kisame is inferior to Base Jiraiya when his P2 feats outstrip his abilities in P1 whereas the same doesn't apply to Jiraiya. Now, if Base Jiraiya improved as well, then you can make a point, but he didn't.



His feats don't outstrip his abilities, though. There is no evidence that Kisame got stronger over the time-skip, just as there is no evidence that Jiraiya did either. Show me some portrayal differences, some character statements that imply he got much stronger -- something that cannot be logically attributed to power inflation. 



> P2 Kisame's feats alone should contradict Kisame's admission when that statement as made when he was in P1 when he was blatantly shown to be weaker. It's like claiming P2 Kakashi is still trash compared to Orochimaru due to a statement Kakashi made in Part 1. Jiraiya outright stated that the Akatsuki members do develop their skills along the way, so what's to say that Kisame didn't do the same when other Akatsuki members were shown that they did?



No, they shouldn't. You're not taking into account power inflation. In Part 1 a small, sourceless suiton was "Kage level." In Part 2 it wasn't, so naturally Kisame, as a Kage level fighter who specializes in water-style, would show much more massive jutsu. Story-wise, Kage level did not change between Part 1 and Part 2, yet how it's drawn did. 



> I don't get it. Jiraiya outright admitted that he failed to rescue Orochimaru in Part 1 yet people have the nerve to claim that SM Jiraiya can beat Orochimaru. Maybe it's because of feats?



What _other people_ claim has no bearing on my argument. For what it's worth, I believe in the Three-Way Deadlock between the Sannin. 





> Which is irrelevant when power inflation applied to Kisame whereas it didn't apply to Base Jiraiya.



We don't really know how it applies to Jiraiya because he didn't show very much in Base, and in Part 1 he was drugged during his only fight.


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## Veracity (May 12, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Honestly, Jiraiya already admitted that all of the members of the Akatsuki developed their skills along the way, so I wouldn't be surprised if Kisame grew stronger since then considering Deidara developed new skills as well, same as Sasori.
> 
> Jiraiya had more hype than Kisame, sure, but that works both ways as well such as Jiraiya being superior to Pain because he received more hype. It doesn't work like that. None of the Akatsuki members aside from Itachi and Orochimaru received hype because they were the only relevant members of the Akatsuki at that time.
> 
> ...


Can I get a panel for that Jirayia statement? The same would go for Jirayia also though as the Sannin developed techniques after the timeskip.

Jirayia doesn't have more hype than Pain
 He does have praise from Pain but that could simply be Nagato being humble to his former teacher. The difference there is that Pain has better feats than Jirayia while Kisame does not have better feats than Jirayia.

All the powerful characters in part 1 received massive hype. From Tsuande to Kakashi to Gai. Even Kisame received hype, he just wasn't implied to be on a Sannin Level. He has had tons of opportunities to have been hyped up( Like him and Itachi being the only Akatsuki members of part 1) but Kishi passed the bill which leads me to believe he isn't as powerful as you want him to be- or his hype just isn't on a Sannin level.

You can't judge a fight from a simple skirmish , nor was Kisame sent there to really injury Asuma. Kisame and Asuma didn't really really fight, and I don't expect Gai to have been able to beat Asuma that quickly either.

Sage mode isn't power inflation.

Any Sannin is strong to beat if not almost beat Hebi-Sasuke. Furthermore any Sannin has a chance to beat every Akatsuki member bar Pain, Itachi and Obito; they definitely are a threat to Akatsuki.  I think we need to reevaluate the definition of a Threat. All of the Sannin have a chance to beat Kisame and are easily a threat. I'd say that Sage Jirayia is easily a threat to Itachi too being able to beat him in some scenarios.

Kisame is capable of battling a Sannin, but that wasn't the initial argument. You said the Sannin weren't a threat to Kisame and I corrected that.


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## UchihaX28 (May 12, 2016)

Mithos said:


> * His feats don't outstrip his abilities, though. * There is no evidence that Kisame got stronger over the time-skip, just as there is no evidence that Jiraiya did either. Show me some portrayal differences, some character statements that imply he got much stronger -- * something that cannot be logically attributed to power inflation. *



You haven't given me a reason to doubt power inflation.

Oh they certainly do. When did Kisame suddenly become capable of barfing up an entire ocean, being able to contend with a Taijutsu master, easily subdue 3 Jonins with just Water Clones, merge with Samehada which grants him a sensory advantage, have strength to topple what could possibly be a Bijuu Sized Summon, and Suiton that easily encompasses an area of a Boss Summon or even greater?

When we compare that to P1 Kisame, you know his P1 feats are trash. His Suiton when serious was merely a small-sized Suiton Shark (with a Water source) that Kakashi intercepted with ease. We have various statements suggesting that Kisame would struggle against P1 Kakashi which is not a reflection of how strong P2 Kisame if we take into account everything he's done such as forcing Gai to open the 6th Gates when he was using mere Taijutsu, murked the strongest Jinchuuriki at the time, and forced Gai to open the 7th Gates to compete with a Weakened Kisame. I don't know what to say if you literally think P1 Kisame's portrayal is the same as it was in Part 2.

Feats alone should suggest he was portrayed differently.



> No, they shouldn't. You're not taking into account power inflation. In Part 1 a small, sourceless suiton was "Kage level." In Part 2 it wasn't, so naturally Kisame, as a Kage level fighter who specializes in water-style, would show much more massive jutsu. Story-wise, Kage level did not change between Part 1 and Part 2, yet how it's drawn did.



Not really because Large-Scale Kage Level ninjutsu existed well into Part 1. And even some Kage Level ninjutsu in P2 aren't drawn as large scale either.

This is kind of a moot point because the advantages Kisame does gain doesn't totally depend on scale.



> What _other people_ claim has no bearing on my argument. For what it's worth, I believe in the Three-Way Deadlock between the Sannin.



Fair enough.



> We don't really know how it applies to Jiraiya because he didn't show very much in Base, and in Part 1 he was drugged during his only fight.



So there's no reason to assume he got any stronger.

As for the statement that suggests that Kisame got stronger, I'm still looking for it, so I'll post it when I do find it.


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## Sapherosth (May 15, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> maybe because he's the sensei of kakashi's sensei
> or maybe because they wanted jiraiya to be the hokage instead of kakashi
> books that kakashi reads almost all the freaking time
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]




So what is your point exactly?


It doesn't prove anything at all. 

I simply stated that Jiraiya does not have the "experience" that tards like you say he has when all he did was going around writing books.

Let's face it, experience rarely means shit, and Jiraiya doesn't have more experience than Kakashi.

That was my point.

Not sure why you even brought up Itachi....are you stupid? or just butthurt.


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## Hamaru (May 15, 2016)

Kakashi was using kamui like it was a ninja star during the war arc. What stops him from taking J-man's head off?


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## Android (May 17, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> So what is your point exactly?
> 
> 
> It doesn't prove anything at all.


you asked '' boo hoo from where are people bringing this experience booshit '' and i answered your question
i literally spoon fed you and you still unable to comprehend


Sapherosth said:


> I simply stated that Jiraiya does not have the "experience" that tards like you say he has when all he did was going around writing books.


your argument could not be more idiotic


Sapherosth said:


> Let's face it, experience rarely means shit


indeed


Sapherosth said:


> and Jiraiya doesn't have more experience than Kakashi.
> 
> That was my point.





Sapherosth said:


> Not sure why you even brought up Itachi....are you stupid? or just butthurt.


pffff , rather your lack of reading comprehension 
how can i even explain this to you , when you can't even understand the simple things

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (May 17, 2016)

Hasan said:


> It must be hard for someone, who preaches teamwork almost religiously, to perform solo with a whole platoon at his side that includes his bosom buddy.


Maybe if he was on top and acted that way, that would be cool. Like when Minato did that with them against the Iwa fodder even tho he was by far the strongest one there.

However, this is not the case with Kakashi, we know for a fact that he can't deal with the Mist jutsu that way.


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## Hasan (May 18, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Maybe if he was on top and acted that way, that would be cool. Like when Minato did that with them against the Iwa fodder even tho he was by far the strongest one there.


He did. 



> However, this is not the case with Kakashi, we know for a fact that he can't deal with the Mist jutsu that way.


He already did—solo. It happened in the very first story arc of the series.


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## Trojan (May 18, 2016)

Hasan said:


> He did.
> 
> 
> He already did—solo. It happened in the very first story arc of the series.


The way Kakashi in the first arc was literally by taken a direct hit from Zabuza. 
and then making the dogs use their noses to smell him.

I am not sure if taken a direct hit is the best strategy.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> log out



Read the manga.

Jiraya's head gets into a boxland.


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Read the manga.
> 
> Jiraya's head gets into a boxland.


Bullcrap , the kamui GG has never happened in the manga , it's only there in fanfiction 
kakashi's head get blown up with an invisible kick


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Bullcrap , the kamui GG has never happened in the manga , it's only there in fanfiction
> kakashi's head get blown up with an invisible kick



Mini-Bijuudama GG has never happened either. Juubidama GG has never happened with the shinobi as powerful as Jiraya, guess what, Jiraya sh*ts on it.

Kakashi sucked Naruto's Rassengan with a size comparable to Jiraya's head without any effort and sucked BM Naruto's clone within a moment into a boxland. Jiraya cant deal with it, cant counter it.

Kakashi sends him into a boxland.


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Mini-Bijuudama GG has never happened either. Juubidama GG has never happened with the shinobi as powerful as Jiraya, guess what, Jiraya sh*ts on it.
> 
> Kakashi sucked Naruto's Rassengan with a size comparable to Jiraya's head without any effort and sucked BM Naruto's clone within a moment into a boxland. Jiraya cant deal with it, cant counter it.
> 
> Kakashi sends him into a boxland.


Rubbish , mini bijuudama was used only once in the manga , juubidama at least killed people 
at least , at the very least those techniques you posted were used offensively , against living targets 
did kakashi ever used kamui offensively against people ? no 
when kakashi sucked naruto's rasengan/clone , it was a cooperative thing , it says absolutly nothing about jiraiya who
has sensing , yes the databook confirme it 
can actually react by using smoke bombs , dust cloud ....etc etc
however if you are implaying kakashi can kamui GG BM naruto , let me know please , so i can laugh even harder


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Rubbish , mini bijuudama was used only once in the manga , juubidama at least killed people
> at least , at the very least those techniques you posted were used offensively , against living targets
> did kakashi ever used kamui offensively against people ? no
> when kakashi sucked naruto's rasengan/clone , it was a cooperative thing , it says absolutly nothing about jiraiya who
> ...



He never had an opportunity to use it when he became a good Kamui user. He torn off Deidara's arm though.

SM Jiraya can react to a long-ranged Kamui? He isnt fast enough to dodge it, or protect himself from it. I am too lazy to provide all the feats of Kamui's speed. Maybe Raikiri will deal with you later on.


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## Mithos (May 18, 2016)

I have a serious problem with "Kamui, GG" because if we believe it, then Kakashi could defeat ninja that the manga would _never_ allow him to. 

He should have been able to one-shot Deva, but he didn't. And even with help, he died in that fight. 

Logically, he should be able to "Kamui, GG" Madara or Hashirama, but the manga made it clear they were so far above him and he would never defeat them. 

I know people often retort by saying "Kishi didn't drawn it because it would have been boring," but sorry, I don't find that to be a strong argument. I think it's more likely people have misinterpreted Kishi's intentions with the technique.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Rubbish , mini bijuudama was used only once in the manga , juubidama at least killed people
> at least , at the very least those techniques you posted were used offensively , against living targets
> did kakashi ever used kamui offensively against people ? no
> when kakashi sucked naruto's rasengan/clone , it was a cooperative thing , it says absolutly nothing about jiraiya who
> ...



He already kamui gg'ed BM NARUTO, didn't he?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> He already kamui gg'ed BM NARUTO, didn't he?


this guy again  
no , he kamui GG'd a clone , and that was a combo attack , C . O . M . B . O  attack


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

Mithos said:


> I have a serious problem with "Kamui, GG" because if we believe it, then Kakashi could defeat ninja that the manga would _never_ allow him to.
> 
> He should have been able to one-shot Deva, but he didn't. And even with help, he died in that fight.
> 
> ...



Logically, he shouldnt. Hashirama is a sensor with super speed, Madara is a sensory type too, just as fast as base Hashirama and has EMS precognition. Both of them can evade long-ranged Kamui.


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## StarWanderer (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this guy again
> no , he kamui GG'd a clone , and that was a combo attack , C . O . M . B . O  attack



Naruto slowed down due to it being a combo attack? or he had a telepathic link with Naruto so he knew what Kakashi wants to do?


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

People are just against Kamui GG because it can actually defeat most ninja. Being able to Kamui BM Naruto's clone before it and Obito could even move an inch suggests that Jiraiya wouldn't be able to react to it. The only reason I don't stick to that argument is because so many people are against it and quite frankly, it's a boring argument to use.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> this guy again
> no , he kamui GG'd a clone , and that was a combo attack , C . O . M . B . O  attack



What does it being a combo have to do with anything? are you saying that naruto slowed down, just to get kamuid?

Unlikely, considering that kakashi was able to track his movements and kamui his rasengan the first time.

Also a clone still has the same physical stats as the real deal, so what is your argument again?


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> What does it being a combo have to do with anything? are you saying that naruto slowed down, just to get kamuid?
> 
> Unlikely, considering that kakashi was able to track his movements and kamui his rasengan the first time.
> 
> Also a clone still has the same physical stats as the real deal, so what is your argument again?


i'm saying naruto wasn't moving at full speed so he and kakashi can coordinate their attack 
if naruto for example used his speed when he smacked away the 5 TBB how the fuck would kakashi see him , let alone kamui him 
no , that was KCM naruto whom kakashi kamui'd his rasengan , also was moving in a casual speed 
no , clones =/= the real one , RSM naruto's clones were getting smacked by kaguya's chakra arms , yet the real naruto was reacting to'em
do you , by a chance , believe RSM naruto clone can react to sasuke's amenotejikara , because the real naruto reacted to it ?
do you believe naruto's clone can speedblitz kaguya , because the realone actually did blitzed her ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Android (May 18, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> People are just against Kamui GG because it can actually defeat most ninja. Being able to Kamui BM Naruto's clone before it and Obito could even move an inch suggests that Jiraiya wouldn't be able to react to it. The only reason I don't stick to that argument is because so many people are against it and quite frankly, it's a boring argument to use.


no , people are just being realistic and following the manga , not the kind of bullshit that only exists in fanfiction . com
side note : do you by a chance believe kakashi can LOL kamui gg your beloved itachi or MS sasuke , because he kamui'd BM who's fuck loads faster than them ?

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> you asked '' boo hoo from where are people bringing this experience booshit '' and i answered your question
> i literally spoon fed you and you still unable to comprehend
> 
> your argument could not be more idiotic
> ...






Hahahaha

Are you sure it's me who cannot comprehend English?   You're the one who can barely write, let alone understand. I find it incredibly offensive and borderline retarded for you to have the audacity to comment on my English reading ability.


Sort yourself out bro....


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## Clowe (May 18, 2016)

Kamui GG, Jiraiya's head gets to have a date with Deidara's arm.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (May 18, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> no , people are just being realistic and following the manga , not the kind of bullshit that only exists in fanfiction . com
> side note : do you by a chance believe kakashi can LOL kamui gg your beloved itachi or MS sasuke , because he kamui'd BM who's fuck loads faster than them ?



Not necessarily as Susano'o is activated instantaneously and they need to warp a part of Susano'o to warp away those Uchiha. With no knowledge whereas Kakashi has knowledge, then MS Sasuke would get warped away whereas Itachi can peer into his soul and prevent that.

But no, we're being realistic here. Kamui sniping is activated pretty instantaneously and the only way it can be evaded is if the opposing fighter's speed is fast enough to where he can get out of Kakashi's LoS. Guys like BM Naruto (Shunshin) wouldn't have a problem doing so as Kakashi can't track him, but SM Jiraiya? Yeah, he's not fast enough where he can get out of his LoS, so he gets head-sniped easily.


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## Kyu (May 18, 2016)

Kakashi warps Jiraiya's micropenis to kamuiland.


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## Crimson Flam3s (May 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> i'm saying naruto wasn't moving at full speed so he and kakashi can coordinate their attack
> if naruto for example used his speed when he smacked away the 5 TBB how the fuck would kakashi see him , let alone kamui him
> no , that was KCM naruto whom kakashi kamui'd his rasengan , also was moving in a casual speed
> no , clones =/= the real one , RSM naruto's clones were getting smacked by kaguya's chakra arms , yet the real naruto was reacting to'em
> ...



Naruto's clones always get slapped by pretty much all enemies, that's their point, to distract and take the hits instead of the real naruto while he plans something. I still don't see how that changes the confirmed manga fact that shadow clones are not slower, or have lesser reactions than the real user.


Naruto was not moving at a casual speed in either scenario. He was fighting the man that reked him in a few panels and nearly soloed him until gai and kakashi stepped in. 

If naruto had the speed that you are making up, then he would have used it to blitz obito when he solidified to shoot the stakes instead of getting warped by kakashi.

Kakashi was literally shown to have reactions above obito, who had no trouble keeping up with either version of naruto.


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## Android (May 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Hahahaha
> 
> Are you sure it's me who cannot comprehend English?   You're the one who can barely write, let alone understand. I find it incredibly offensive and borderline retarded for you to have the audacity to comment on my English reading ability.
> 
> ...


 laugh out looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooud 
i wasn't reffering to your English you dumb ass , i was talking about your lack of ability to understand things ,including this manga , tho i tell people all the time here , english isn't my first language , hell , it's not even my second language , but seeing you can write english very well , but still unable to understand a simple piece of fiction , this tells a lot about your level of thinking 
keep'em coming kid , coz this is all entertainment to me lol


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## Sapherosth (May 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> laugh out looooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooud
> i wasn't reffering to your English you dumb ass , i was talking about your lack of ability to understand things ,including this manga , tho i tell people all the time here , english isn't my first language , hell , it's not even my second language , but seeing you can write english very well , but still unable to understand a simple piece of fiction , this tells a lot about your level of thinking
> keep'em coming kid , coz this is all entertainment to me lol





You've just proven my point that you cannot comprehend English....

You said that I've failed to 'comprehend the manga' which basically means that I've failed to comprehend the English language.....


You're just making yourself look stupid now.


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## Android (May 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> You've just proven my point that you cannot comprehend English....
> 
> You said that I've failed to 'comprehend the manga' which basically means that I've failed to comprehend the English language.....
> 
> ...


do i have to spoon feed eveything to you ???
being able to read , and being able to understand what you read aren't the same thing 
an 8 years old kid can read an article about rocket scince , or atomic division , but can they understand shit ? go figure


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## Sapherosth (May 19, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> do i have to spoon feed eveything to you ???
> being able to read , and being able to understand what you read aren't the same thing
> an 8 years old kid can read an article about rocket scince , or atomic division , but can they understand shit ? go figure




Reading comprehension is part of the English language, dumbass. Why would someone like you who can barely write a proper sentence have the same English comprehension as me? Spare me from your bullshit.


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## Android (May 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Reading comprehension is part of the English language, dumbass. Why would someone like you who can barely write a proper sentence have the same English comprehension as me? Spare me from your bullshit.


bitch please . Like I said. Learn how to comprehend such a basic Manga. It's not that hard. My issue isn't the subject matter. My issue is the idiot who continuously spouts BS, and then comes crying to my wall when he gets negged, Please kid. Take your own garbage and stop bothering me because you can't handle heat.
ffs , you couldn't even understand the simple example i gave to you , lmfao
being able to read something =/= you have a comprehension skills
i don't even know how to make it even more simple for you to understand , coz it's very rare to have someone with this small amount of brain cells 
one argument is already too much for your puny brain to comprehend.
you couldn't even understand that minato's contract seal works on edo tensei in the other thread , did you ? 
now do me a favore and get of my dick for once , get lost , stop replaying to me .


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## Hasan (May 20, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The way Kakashi in the first arc was literally by taken a direct hit from Zabuza.
> and then making the dogs use their noses to smell him.
> 
> I am not sure if taken a direct hit is the best strategy.


There's no harm in spilling a little blood on purpose.


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Bullcrap , the kamui GG has never happened in the manga , it's only there in fanfiction
> kakashi's head get blown up with an invisible kick


That invisible kick also has never happened In the manga 
Bias much ?


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## Android (May 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> That invisible kick also has never happened In the manga
> Bias much ?


frog kata , did destroy preta path , didn't it ?


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2016)

I can't remember Jiriaya using it 
Or Naruto being able to do it with a kick or the jutsu describing it as possible to do it with a kick 

All I remember is Naruto is physically stronger than Jiriaya by feats 

So in terms of fan fic ur statement fits that a lot more than Kamui GG


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## Android (May 21, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I can't remember Jiriaya using it
> Or Naruto being able to do it with a kick or the jutsu describing it as possible to do it with a kick
> 
> All I remember is Naruto is physically stronger than Jiriaya by feats
> ...


 
fukasku says : '' frog kumite utilizezs the nature energy that surrounds the body , and works as an extention of the body , the user can extend the range and force of their physical attacks. Strikes that seemingly miss will actually make contact with the target ''
the natural energy surrounds the users entire body , not just their arms 
so , if jiraiya kicks , and kakashi dodges , he gets his neck broken 
frog kata is a fanfiction now , that's NBD for you


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## Icegaze (May 21, 2016)

Salty child 
Jiraiya ain't shown it so that's far more fan fic than Kamui which actually has feats

Reactions: Like 2


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## Android (May 22, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Salty child
> Jiraiya ain't shown it so that's far more fan fic than Kamui which actually has feats


stupid lil child 
jiraiya is a frog kata user
scan for kakashi kamui GG'ing another shinobi or GTFO


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## Icegaze (May 22, 2016)

Will certainly provide that once u show me a scan of Jiriaya using frog kata's
At that point no doubt I'll show u Kamui GG scan


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