# Marineford Whitebeard vs. Big Mom



## MYJC (Sep 19, 2017)

Whitebeard (Marineford) vs. Current Big Mom

Location: Whole Cake Island
Restrictions: None, however WB isn't at all afraid of Big Mom so she cannot steal any of his lifespan.
Knowledge: Manga

This is Whitebeard as he was in Marineford, but before suffering any serious injuries. So he's old/sick but hasn't been shot/stabbed/lava'd. Big Mom gets Zeus and Prometheus as standard equipment and can throw homies at WB if she wants.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 19, 2017)

So this is pre-Squard stab?  Whitebeard takes this.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYJC (Sep 19, 2017)

Lord Stark said:


> So this is pre-Squard stab?  Whitebeard takes this.



Yep. This is basically Whitebeard as he was at the start of Marineford. Old, past his prime, and not in good health, but not directly injured. Keep in mind he's in Big Mom's territory.

What diff?


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## Gohara (Sep 19, 2017)

Big Mam's character wins with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion.  If it were a fully healthy Old Whitebeard then I would give him an edge.  However Big Mam's character has significantly superior physical strength and defense to that version of Whitebeard's character.  In comparison to that version Big Mam's character should also have comparable if not superior Haki.


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 19, 2017)

WB extreme diff. because as of right now we don't know if She have a lethal attack just like Akainu did to WB and WB is not afraid to anyone.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Sep 20, 2017)

He throws her ass into the sea

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 2


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Sep 20, 2017)

The WSM isn't losing to an obese womanchild who doesn't seem to have a single coherent thought when fighting other than "CAKE, CAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEE". WB takes it high diff, maybe Big Meme can push him to extreme diff if she doesn't act like a demented retard and uses her home field advantage to its fullest potential. 



Gohara said:


> Big Mam's character wins with high to extremely high difficulty in my opinion. If it were a fully healthy Old Whitebeard then I would give him an edge. However Big Mam's character has significantly superior physical strength and defense to that version of Whitebeard's character. In comparison to that version Big Mam's character should also have comparable if not superior Haki.



In that case, what do you consider a fully healthy Old Whitebeard? Because I feel like Whitebeard at the start of Marineford before he got stabbed by Squard was as close to fully healthy as he could be in his old age, and if he wasn't the difference shouldn't be by that much. Also, gonna have to disagree about Big Meme having superior physical strength, she has yet to show any physical feats that Whitebeard couldn't replicate. She should only be approaching WB's level of strength at best.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Sherlōck (Sep 20, 2017)

WB - Hey Big Mom
BM - It's Meme. What's up? 
WB - Is that a cake? 
BM - Where? 

BM looks away. WB lands few consecutive gura punch. Match over.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 2


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## MYJC (Sep 20, 2017)

chinesesoccerplayer said:


> The WSM isn't losing to an obese womanchild who doesn't seem to have a single coherent thought when fighting other than "CAKE, CAAAAAAAAAAKKKKKKKKKEEEEEEEEEEEE". WB takes it high diff, maybe Big Meme can push him to extreme diff if she doesn't act like a demented retard and uses her home field advantage to its fullest potential.
> 
> 
> 
> In that case, what do you consider a fully healthy Old Whitebeard? Because I feel like Whitebeard at the start of Marineford before he got stabbed by Squard was as close to fully healthy as he could be in his old age, and if he wasn't the difference shouldn't be by that much. Also, gonna have to disagree about Big Meme having superior physical strength, she has yet to show any physical feats that Whitebeard couldn't replicate. She should only be approaching WB's level of strength at best.



To be fair, Marco said that a fully healthy Whitebeard would never have gotten stabbed by Squard in the first place. 

Now you could argue about whether him getting stabbed was because of sickness or just old age, but Garp and Sengoku are around the same age and seemed much better off than WB in Marineford, which is why I'd lean toward it having more to do with poor health. Plus, let's not forget he was hooked up to IVs in his first appearance. 

So the question is whether Squard would be able to do the same thing to Big Mom, because if not then she has at least some advantage over Whitebeard (be it durability or reaction time).


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## GrizzlyClaws (Sep 20, 2017)

At the start of Marineford WB wasn't at 100% already. But more importantly, he is losing constantly health as time proceeds.

With Akainu and Aokiji we have seen top tiers can fight for 10 days, and even weaker people like Ace and Jimbei fought for 5 days. All of MF happened within a span of just 3 hours (iirc), and we have seen how much WB's health deteriorated during that time.

It depends whether WB can finish BM before his health deteriorates too much. BM is a durability freak, so this may be a very difficult task for him.

All in all I'd be willing to give WB the benefit of the doubt because I think he wasn't the WSM for nothing, even at his age, but it would be extreme diff.


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

Whitebeard wins. I would enjoy this.


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Really? All Yonkou fought evenly against WB years before MF to take parts of his territory. Now he's much older (weaker). Extreme diff, but not for WB obviously.


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

charles101 said:


> Now he's much older (weaker). Extreme diff, but not for WB obviously.




Big Mom is 68. Whitebeard was 72. Hardly the generation gap...


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> Big Mom is 68. Whitebeard was 72. Hardly the generation gap...



BM's body is "special". We didn't see any weakness due to her age (maybe her "illness", but not her "stats") and Marco implied that his reactions are worse in that condition. WB himself said that he can't be "the strongest" forever. He's called the strongest man since Roger died, what was +20 years ago

I mean, she's obviously not in her prime form, but she aged way better than WB.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 20, 2017)

Guys ..... it's simple, WB was still introduced as the WSM however handicapped you want to believe he was. Yes technically, BM _is a woman_ (though that's debatable looking at her) but the essential point conveyed from Oda through that title and a few other statements (e.g. Buggy's), was that WB was still the top dog of the seas at that point in time. 

WB wins high~extreme difficulty. 

He still likely wins with Squardo stab as I don't think that took much away from him. Heart attack & Akainu pumping his chest full of magma was when he likely lost his his superiority to BM.


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Guys ..... it's simple, WB was still introduced as the WSM however handicapped you want to believe he was. Yes technically, BM _is a woman_ (though that's debatable looking at her) but the essential point conveyed from Oda through that title and a few other statements (e.g. Buggy's), was that WB was still the top dog of the seas at that point in time.



I wasn't talking about BM being woman. Imo at this point he was already weaker than any other Yonkou. He was introduced as WSM, right, but how could anyone in OP-verse know if he's already weaker or not than, idk, Kaido if they last time WB fought any top tier was probably years ago?

My point is, if he's still stronger than every single Yonkou, even when he was so restricted, then no Yonkou would be able to take control over his territory in past (since he was much stronger back then).


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 20, 2017)

charles101 said:


> I wasn't talking about BM being woman. Imo at this point he was already weaker than any other Yonkou. He was introduced as WSM, right, but how could anyone in OP-verse know if he's already weaker or not than, idk, Kaido if they last time WB fought any top tier was probably years ago?
> 
> My point is, if he's still stronger than every single Yonkou, even when he was so restricted, then no Yonkou would be able to take control over his territory in past (since he was much stronger back then).


maybe not the strongest Yonko but I think he still stronger than BM or maybe you guys are right about this all along since WB having a heart attack during fight will made him vulnerable.


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## Muah (Sep 20, 2017)

It depends on how sick whitebeard was at the war Marco suggested that he was overly slow in reaction time.

Either way Whitebeard takes this super extreme difficulty. BM is I think 4 years younger and shows no signs of being slowed by age but until she receives a bit more hype Whitebeard was still considered the king of the seas.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

charles101 said:


> My point is, if he's still stronger than every single Yonkou, even when he was so restricted, then no Yonkou would be able to take control over his territory in past (since he was much stronger back then).




Not that it matters, since Yonko faction balance is more complex than just what captain wins 1v1, but what are you refering to here? When was it mentioned Whitebeard ever lost territory.
Blackbeard's rise and Fishman Island going to Big Mom was all after Whitebeard died. Who took control of territory from Whitebeard in the past?


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> When was it mentioned Whitebeard ever lost territory.



Back on Punk Hazard. Law said it, when he was describing Yonkou to Luffy.


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## Ruse (Sep 20, 2017)

Old WB > Yonko its canon

Reactions: Like 1


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

charles101 said:


> Back on Punk Hazard. Law said it, when he was describing Yonkou to Luffy.



Yeah, two years following Whitebeard's death.


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> Yeah, two years following Whitebeard's death.



He was talking about past... How could he describe WB rivaling with Yonkou after WB's death?


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## Admiral Kizaru (Sep 20, 2017)

charles101 said:


> *Imo at this point he was already weaker than any other Yonkou.* He was introduced as WSM, right, but how could anyone in OP-verse know if he's already weaker or not than, idk, Kaido if they last time WB fought any top tier was probably years ago?
> 
> My point is, if he's still stronger than every single Yonkou, even when he was so restricted, then no Yonkou would be able to take control over his territory in past (since he was much stronger back then).



I vehemently disagree with the bolded - you're overthinking this.

Like Mihawk's title, Oda's typically very simple & straightforward about these things. He introduced WB as the strongest guy on the planet because that's exactly what he still was - the strongest person still around. A statement that was reinforced by several character statements (Buggy's, Sengoku's etc) and by his feats & effort at MF. 

Why would Oda do all that if secretly he didn't believe that and instead had Kaido/BM/Shanks as stronger than WB? To mislead us?

And individual strength doesn't necessarily reflect overall Yonkou crew strength or competence ...... one look at the BM pirates is enough evidence of that. A bumbling group of idiots, without much camaraderie or loyalty however where there's no doubting the leader's (BM's) personal strength or power. 

By the way are you referring to this quote from Law?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 20, 2017)

*Stabilised WB was introduced as WSM*. The guy that casually swatted away over 100 attempts on his life by Ace in his sleep and split the heavens with Shanks in a clash.

The WB who took off his IV's weakened considerably to the point where he had numerous heart attacks, could not even use haki consistently and got stabbed by Squardo. That man was not the same man that was introduced as WSM. There are numerous statements from WB, Marco, Mihawk, Crocodile and even Akainu that indicate WB was far from the one introduced as WSM. Sengoku doesn't know more about WB's condition than fucking WB himself and Marco.


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## X18999 (Sep 20, 2017)

I don't Whitbeard can win this... his heath will do as much damage to him as Big Mom would.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 20, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> *Stabilised WB was introduced as WSM*. The guy that casually swatted away over 100 attempts on his life by Ace in his sleep and split the heavens with Shanks in a clash.
> 
> The WB who took off his IV's weakened considerably to the point where he had numerous heart attacks, could not even use haki consistently and got stabbed by Squardo. That man was not the same man that was introduced as WSM. There are numerous statements from WB, Marco, Mihawk, Crocodile and even Akainu that indicate WB was far from the one introduced as WSM. Sengoku doesn't know more about WB's condition than fucking WB himself and Marco.



He had numerous heart attacks after being stabbed in the fucking heart lol.  Sengoku has fought Whitebeard countless times and still thought WB (even after being stabbed by Squard) was still the strongest man in the world.  It doesn't really get more clear cut than the Fleet Admiral of the Marines flat out calling you the Strongest Man in the World while standing right next to "The Hero" Garp, and staring at Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, and Mihawk even after being stabbed in the heart.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Muah (Sep 20, 2017)

X18999 said:


> I don't Whitbeard can win this... his heath will do as much damage to him as Big Mom would.


Yea but consider he donesn't have thousands of people trying to kill him at once with help from the shichibukai and admirals. He also doesn't have to hold back on the massive destruction. If he can flip the entire sea on it's ass i'm sure he can pretty much wreck an island.


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

The Whitebeard nerfs were to safeguard his legendary status and aura, because he is like Roger a legacy character and this way we don't even see his true prime. It wasn't to trick the reader into misreading the situation, or deliver cheap hype to others 500 chapters later.
Prime Whitebeard predates the Yonko system. He was a top pirate when Roger was in the peak of his reign. Yonko Whitebeard was still the WSM.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ruse (Sep 20, 2017)

He beat another top tier while severely handicapped, no reason to doubt his title.


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## charles101 (Sep 20, 2017)

Joseph said:


> He beat another top tier while severely handicapped, no reason to doubt his title.



Defeated, but moment later Akainu was just fine. For comparison, his fight with Aokiji was 10 days long and afterwards he has scars and Aokiji lost his leg.



Admiral Kizaru said:


> By the way are you referring to this quote from Law?



This one:




Admiral Kizaru said:


> Why would Oda do all that if secretly he didn't believe that and instead had Kaido/BM/Shanks as stronger than WB? To mislead us?



Because him "suddenly losing his tittle" without being defeated by anyone wouldn't have much sense. My point from the start wasn't that "WB wasn't the strongest" but that "he wasn't the strongest anymore". How can Buggy or even Sengoku know how would battle between Kaido and old, nerfed WB look like? Their opinion bases on WB's hype and maybe feats he showed yeas ago. Marco who lives with him stated that he was much weaker during MF. WB himself said that whatever others say, he can't be the strongest forever. He knew very well he's weaker.

And if even weaker, sick, nerfed, old WB was stronger than current Yonkou, they wouldn't stand a chance against him to take control over his islands, when he was much stronger. And Roger was even stronger, right? Who will Luffy fight to get at his level if Yonkou are weaker than his weaker, sick, nerfed, old rival? Aliens?


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 20, 2017)

Lord Stark said:


> He had numerous heart attacks after being stabbed in the fucking heart lol.  Sengoku has fought Whitebeard countless times and still thought WB (even after being stabbed by Squard) was still the strongest man in the world.  It doesn't really get more clear cut than the Fleet Admiral of the Marines flat out calling you the Strongest Man in the World while standing right next to "The Hero" Garp, and staring at Akainu, Aokiji, Kizaru, and Mihawk even after being stabbed in the heart.



-It doesn't get more clear cut than WB agreeing with Crocodile and saying he can't be strongest forever since he is only a man with one heart. WB's opinion about his status >>>>>>Sengoku
-Also do you legit think Sengoku is going to go 'lol he isn't the strongest anymore' in a war situation where you don't want your troops to underestimate the threat?
-If WB was weaker than the Yonko, but still slightly stronger than any individual would it make a difference if he said he wasn't WSM? If for all intents and purposes he was stronger than anyone at MF?
-It doesn't get more clear cut than Mihawk saying, '' This is conjecture but it seems rather small. The distance between us and that man.'' Does that indicate an overwhelming difference in strength to warrant a title that no one disputes?
-It doesn't get more clear than Marco indicating that WB was weakened dramatically by taking off his IV's. This is backed up by heart attacks and inconsistent haki.
-It doesn't get more clear cut than Crocodile calling him weak compared to a healthier version
-It doesn't get more clear cut than Akainu saying even WB can't escape the effects of age
-When did Sengoku fight WB multiple times? Was this ever stated?

So we have statements from WB himself, Mihawk, Marco,Crocodile and Akainu all indicating a vast difference between the man introduced as WSM and MF WB while you just have Sengoku. What the fuck makes Sengoku have more credibility? Sengoku saying that doesn't magically make a WSM hitbox appear (if one even believes hitboxes are word of god statements).

Also this preserving of legendary status and aura is a nice fanfic but I can also easily say WB had to suffer nerfs or he would have killed Akainu and BB without too much trouble and two of Luffy's main future antagonists would be gone.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> Also this preserving of legendary status and aura is a nice fanfic but I can also easily say WB had to suffer nerfs or he would have killed Akainu and BB without too much trouble and two of Luffy's main future antagonists would be gone.




What's this supposed to mean. This isn't some situation where protagonist is in fake danger, Oda creates the universe and the tiers, you're talking as if he has to work around your personal rankings.
Do you even realize Akainu was introduced in Marineford, it's the first time we see the character? Oda could make Akainu as strong as he wants, and he can make Whitebeard not kill whoever he wants alive, he didn't have to nerf anyone or do lame tricks with titles to save them. He was writing the scenario.

Whitebeard was portrayed as strongest individual in Marineford. Why would Oda make such an elaborate ruse out of it, to leave this ultra subtle subtext that really Big Mom is stronger? What's the point.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Dunno (Sep 20, 2017)

Whitebeard tilts the island -> Big Mom rolls off of it -> Big Mom drowns. I'd say low to mid diff, because tilting an island is still one of Whitebeard's more powerful moves.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 20, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> What's this supposed to mean.



WB needed to be nerfed that much in order for him to realistically die and for his commanders to lose via being distracted by his sickness and hax fruits. I'm saying I can also give reasons why WB was sick that have nothing to do with preserving aura or legendary status. 



Samehadaman said:


> This isn't some situation where protagonist is in fake danger, Oda creates the universe and the tiers, *you're talking as if he has to work around your personal rankings*.


-Nice attempt at bait but perhaps Oda has* to work around his own internal tiers*? For instance he already knows exactly how strong he is going to make Kaido. He isn't thinking about making Kaido weaker than what he had in mind in order for Luffy to beat him but is rather brainstorming ways for Luffy to beat him that will seem realistic and not plot no jutsu. A lot of authors do this, the deceased author of the Wheel of Time for instance. It's a good writing tool to keep things consistent by already having tiers in place in your mind before scenarios emerge. 
-WB being sick is a good scenario to make admirals somewhat comparable to him and not have the battle be a stomp.



Samehadaman said:


> Do you even realize Akainu was introduced in Marineford, it's the first time we see the character? Oda could make Akainu as strong as he wants, and he can make Whitebeard not kill whoever he wants alive, he didn't have to nerf anyone or do lame tricks with titles to save them. He was writing the scenario.



No as evidenced by my tldrs I am a casual OP fan. Oda's ability to make Akainu stronger as the author does not equal intent to change what he had in mind for admiral strength. He would have hinted when the SHs met Aokiji that Akainu was much stronger than the average admiral given what we know about 'Goda'. So no, he wouldn't just make Akainu as strong as he wants if it's inconsistent with his own idea of the character.



Samehadaman said:


> Whitebeard was portrayed as strongest individual in Marineford. Why would Oda make such an elaborate ruse out of it, to leave this ultra subtle subtext that really Big Mom is stronger? What's the point.


-What elaborate ruse? Him being the strongest at MF doesn't mean he was the strongest person in OP at that stage. A ruse implies it was an indisputable fact that the person introduced as WSM was the same person at MF. We have multiple statements from credible characters including WB himself that that is not the case. How about you refute those statements instead of making up rubbish about your perceived ruse? Or is your ruse just based on Sengoku? Unpack this elaborate ruse please.
-You admiral fans are not slick. By saying WB is the same man at MF that was introduced as WSM you can say that the admirals could hang with the Yonko given that WSM WB was special even among Yonko.


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## trance (Sep 20, 2017)

wb's not losing to big meme 

mid/high difficulty

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Samehadaman (Sep 20, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> WB needed to be nerfed that much in order for him to realistically die and for his commanders to lose via being distracted by his sickness and hax fruits. I'm saying I can also give reasons why WB was sick that have nothing to do with preserving aura or legendary status.
> 
> -Nice attempt at bait but perhaps Oda has* to work around his own internal tiers*? For instance he already knows exactly how strong he is going to make Kaido. He isn't thinking about making Kaido weaker than what he had in mind in order for Luffy to beat him but is rather brainstorming ways for Luffy to beat him that will seem realistic and not plot no jutsu. A lot of authors do this, the deceased author of the Wheel of Time for instance. It's a good writing tool to keep things consistent by already having tiers in place in your mind before scenarios emerge.
> -WB being sick is a good scenario to make admirals somewhat comparable to him and not have the battle be a stomp.
> ...



The reason it's convoluted is that he _was_ portrayed as the strongest at Marineford. If he wasn't, there may be a reason to mess around with the title - explaining why.
But since he was, what you're saying is that it was just exagerated and completely unnecessary wanking for characters that would show up hundreds of chapters later. This is extra bizarre because you're already one of the people who think Marineford Whitebeard ragdolls the Admirals... In your mind Oda dedicated the arc not to hype Whitebeard, but rather to put the other Yonko two or three entire tiers above Marines - for reasons. Just in case anyone doubts Gohara's Shanks no diffing Akainu.
And despite the fact two Admirals plus Sengoku and Garp were left intact by the end, this nerfing was necessary to save them all from being killed.
Well congrats. I think it's convoluted.



Seraphoenix said:


> -You admiral fans are not slick. By saying WB is the same man at MF that was introduced as WSM you can say that the admirals could hang with the Yonko given that WSM WB was special even among Yonko.



Ah, but ofc I'm one of the mythical Admiral wankers which clouds my opinion on this matchup that doesn't involve Admirals, where I happen to say Whitebeard was the strongest in Marineford!

I do think Admirals hang with Yonko, I don't need to tread carefully around that opinion, most posters agree and there are in-universe statements to that effect. And if you're worried about me being influenced by liking characters, Whitebeard is one of my favorite characters so that's more of a straightforward reason than a secret plan to hype Kizaru.

But Kizaru > your fave though.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 20, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> -It doesn't get more clear cut than WB agreeing with Crocodile and saying he can't be strongest forever since he is only a man with one heart. WB's opinion about his status >>>>>>Sengoku



He says I can't _remain_ the strongest forever in the Viz translation.  Implying he's still the strongest but cannot remain. 



> -Also do you legit think Sengoku is going to go 'lol he isn't the strongest anymore' in a war situation where you don't want your troops to underestimate the threat?



There are other words he could have used.  And aside from that, Sengoku has seen WB fight in his prime, he's also presumably _at least_ aware of what Kaido (widely considered to currently be the strongest Yonko) is capable of considering he's been captured by the marines before and he _still_ calls him the most dangerous man in the world.  


> -If WB was weaker than the Yonko, but still slightly stronger than any individual would it make a difference if he said he wasn't WSM? If for all intents and purposes he was stronger than anyone at MF?



No.  Because you can't be stronger than every individual at Marineford and also 



> -It doesn't get more clear cut than Mihawk saying, '' This is conjecture but it seems rather small. The distance between us and that man.'' Does that indicate an overwhelming difference in strength to warrant a title that no one disputes?



He doesn't say that at all.  He says "I just want to measure the true distance between that man and us".  



> -It doesn't get more clear than Marco indicating that WB was weakened dramatically by taking off his IV's. This is backed up by heart attacks and inconsistent haki.
> -It doesn't get more clear cut than Crocodile calling him weak compared to a healthier version
> -It doesn't get more clear cut than Akainu saying even WB can't escape the effects of age
> -When did Sengoku fight WB multiple times? Was this ever stated?
> ...



None of that is the case at all fam.  None of them say WB is no longer the WSM.  They simply say he's gotten weaker, which is obviously true.  But let me break this down.

Prime Beard: 100
WB w. IVs: 95
Marineford WB: 90
Yonko: 89
Admirals: 85

WB can get weaker from where he was and still be the strongest man in the world.  Its not mutually exclusive


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## Kylo Ren (Sep 20, 2017)

Lord Stark said:


> Prime Beard: 100
> WB w. IVs: 95
> Marineford WB: 90
> Yonko: 89
> Admirals: 85



Yeah, maybe this. what Sera is saying make sense but I think WB in his prime it just too strong that no can really match him. Yonko right now is equal to WB in marineford without the heart attack, which is still above Admirals imo. Damn, WB was really that strong I sometimes forgot how strong he was.



Seraphoenix said:


> So we have statements from WB himself, Mihawk, Marco,Crocodile and Akainu all indicating a vast difference between the man introduced as WSM


Also Blackbeard iirc stated that.


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## Gohara (Sep 20, 2017)

@ chinesesoccerplayer.

Part of what leads to Squardo stabbing his character is the lack of tools to stabilize his character in The Marineford War Arc which Marco implies makes a difference.  So a fully healed version of Old Whitebeard's character is one without his illness at all with an ill and Old Whitebeard with tools still being superior to The Marineford War Arc's version of his character.  

Big Mam at barely more than a toddler one shotted a legendary Giant without Haki and without Devil Fruit Abilities.  That version of Whitebeard's character with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities did less than that to John Giant.  I doubt that a Vice Admiral would be a legendary character on the most powerful Island in the series.  Big Mam's character is also far superior to herself at barely more than a toddler and has Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities.

I still agree that a fully healthy Old Whitebeard is superior to Big Mam's character overall but in terms of physical strength and defense Kaidou's and Big Mam's characters seem to be on their own level even compared to other Yonkou level characters from what we've seen so far.


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Sep 21, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ chinesesoccerplayer.
> 
> Part of what leads to Squardo stabbing his character is the lack of tools to stabilize his character in The Marineford War Arc which Marco implies makes a difference.  So a fully healed version of Old Whitebeard's character is one without his illness at all with an ill and Old Whitebeard with tools still being superior to The Marineford War Arc's version of his character.
> 
> ...



I don't think the difference between your definition of a "fully healed version of Old Whitebeard" and the Whitebeard at the beginning of Marineford when he had yet to sustain any injuries is significant enough to all of a sudden make Whitebeard lose against Big Meme, whereas before you seem to think he had an edge. It's not like his attack power or defense have suffered a significant drop, the only thing the illness really affects is his reflexes and stamina, but they should still be at a level sufficient enough to allow him to edge out the win against Big Meme. Whitebeard might tire a bit quicker, but he's still gonna hit just as hard and be able to take just as many hits which is really the most important factor in this fight. 

As for what Big Meme did as a child, well, it doesn't really matter because it's not like Whitebeard can't do the exact same thing. You said he did less than that to John Giant, but I think that's more because Meme's a giant and Whitebeard isn't; he still one-shot John Giant but he had to jump up and Gura punch him whereas Meme doesn't have to because she's big enough that she can just grab Jorl's beard and ragdoll him instead. They both did the exact same thing to their respective giant opponents (knock them out in one hit) but Whitebeard just took a little longer, which in no way makes him inferior. And i know Jorl died and John Giant didn't, but I like to think that's because Whitebeard was in  the middle of a FREAKIN WAR and in a rush to save Ace and also because Whitebeard has enough mercy to not kill his opponents, while Meme is a psychopathic woman-child with no such hesitation. Obviously Whitebeard COULD'VE killed John Giant, he just chose not to because he's such a great guy. 

And again, Meme has yet to show any offensive capabilities physical-wise that Whitebeard can not replicate. Her clashing equally with Kong Gun, her shockwave attacks with Napoleon, those are all things Whitebeard can do just as well if not better. So physical-strength wise I still believe she's inferior to the Strongest Man in the World.


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 21, 2017)

Samehadaman said:


> The reason it's convoluted is that he _was_ portrayed as the strongest at Marineford. If he wasn't, there may be a reason to mess around with the title - explaining why.


-Him being portrayed as the strongest character at MF does not mean he was stronger than the other Yonko at that point. I asked you to back up this 'elaborate ruse' with manga facts but it seems you are not up to it. Probably because you can't link the man introduced as WSM with the man that was stabbed by Squardo.




Samehadaman said:


> But since he was, what you're saying is that it was just exagerated and completely unnecessary wanking for characters that would show up hundreds of chapters later.


-When did I say this? You love these little passive aggressive strawmen don't you? Instead of defending your position you want to throw shade.




Samehadaman said:


> This is extra bizarre because you're already one of the people who think Marineford Whitebeard ragdolls the Admirals...


-Another little passive aggressive nugget huh. When did I say this? link pls



Samehadaman said:


> In your mind Oda dedicated the arc not to hype Whitebeard, but rather to put the other Yonko two or three entire tiers above Marines - for reasons.


-You are quite the mindreader my god . Do you have a link for me saying Yonko are two or three tiers above Marines? Do you have a link for me saying that was the theme Oda dedicated to the arc?  Is this now the fourth time you don't actually address  what I say but make up some fanfic of my position?



Samehadaman said:


> Just in case anyone doubts Gohara's Shanks no diffing Akainu.


-When did Gohara say this? Did he say Shanks no diffs Akainu when both are fresh? I call bullshit and this is probably just like the previous examples where you deliberately fanfic someones position and make it absurd in order to diminish credibility.
-I see now why you call derisively call Gohara a 'tier specialist'. You not only fanfic someone's position and ridicule that, but when it comes to actually backing up what you say you run away. I understand now why you only post one paragraph at most. You would get exposed if you had to put yourself out there and defend your position huh Buddha?





Samehadaman said:


> And despite the fact two Admirals plus Sengoku and Garp were left intact by the end, this nerfing was necessary to save them all from being killed.
> Well congrats. I think it's convoluted.


-Given that it took two hits to down Akainu, yes. Not only that but Marco and Jozu were only defeated because of WB suffering a heart attack, triggering them getting blindsided with hax fruits.
-Also Sengoku was hardly having an easy time. After the war he had bandages around his arms and torso. Only Kizaru and Aokiji were really fresh.





Samehadaman said:


> Ah, but ofc I'm one of the mythical Admiral wankers which clouds my opinion on this matchup that doesn't involve Admirals, where I happen to say Whitebeard was the strongest in Marineford!


-Wanker is your word not mine. I use 'fan'. Wanker is a ban word
-I agree WB was the strongest at MF (Mihawk could have been stronger if you believe Mihawk>Shanks)) but not stronger than the Yonko at that point.





Samehadaman said:


> I do think Admirals hang with Yonko, I don't need to tread carefully around that opinion, most posters agree and there are in-universe statements to that effect. And if you're worried about me being influenced by liking characters, Whitebeard is one of my favorite characters so that's more of a straightforward reason than a secret plan to hype Kizaru.


-Most posters agreeing is irrelevant and sounds awfully like an appeal to common opinion. You can find millions who believe the Earth is 6000 years old. Doesn't mean reality warps to their views.
-Which in-universe statements? The statement that says the Marines *and* the 7 warlords counter one Yonko crew? The statement that says the one who conquers the grandline or has the potential to do so is recognised as the strongest?




Samehadaman said:


> But Kizaru > your fave though.



-My favs are Shanks and Dragon good luck with that.



Lord Stark said:


> He says I can't _remain_ the strongest forever in the Viz translation.  Implying he's still the strongest but cannot remain.



I disagree with this. Crocodile calls him weak compared to the man who beat him. WB thinks a reply to Crocodile that he has to be realistic (one man,one heart) and that WB can't always be the strongest and that they should just be satisfied if he can save Ace. The context of this exchange implies that he is no longer the strongest. The Cnet translation (the differences are marginal for this one):

Weak, you call me...? Harsh words indeed... // Yet spare me your grievances, crocodile boy...!! For you and I both... are each but one man, with one heart. // They may call us demons, they may call us monsters... but neither one of us can remain the strongest forever......!!! // Surely if I can give a future to one young life, I have the right to leave the stage proud, do I not

I doubt we will agree with this one. The only thing I will say is WB is not disputing how much he has weakened to Crocodile. He asks that Crocodile judges him not as a monster but as a mortal man.





Lord Stark said:


> There are other words he could have used.  And aside from that, Sengoku has seen WB fight in his prime, he's also presumably _at least_ aware of what Kaido (widely considered to currently be the strongest Yonko) is capable of considering he's been captured by the marines before and he _still_ calls him the most dangerous man in the world.



-This doesn't address that Sengoku could have other motives for painting WB as WSM at that point.
-Like I said Sengoku saying that does not automatically mean he is factoring in how much the sickness had affected WB. WB himself has more credibility than Sengoku regarding WB's condition or status. Marco too.



Lord Stark said:


> No.  Because you can't be stronger than every individual at Marineford and also



Seems you forgot to finish the sentence???





Lord Stark said:


> He doesn't say that at all.  He says "I just want to measure the true distance between that man and us".



I don't think we will find agreement. You seem to put more stock in the Viz translation while I believe the Cnet one is more accurate because it is more nuanced on average.





Lord Stark said:


> None of that is the case at all fam.  None of them say WB is no longer the WSM.  They simply say he's gotten weaker, which is obviously true.  But let me break this down.
> 
> Prime Beard: 100
> WB w. IVs: 95
> ...


-I agree it doesn't have to be mutually exclusive but when judging the difference between the man introduced as WSM and MF WF and whether he is still WSM, to me based on a number of things he is not, namely:
1. Shanks clashed evenly with stabilised WB with no hint of inferiority, with it being highlighted as not only splitting the clouds but the very heavens. Some might chalk it off as a meaningless clash but it is to me clearly symbolic of a clash of wills with neither being on the losing end.
2. Kaido is presumably slightly stronger than Shanks and BM is also nigh equal.
3. We know from Law that the other Yonko clashed with healthy WB himself for territory. Presumably it was close enough that it didn't result in a loss of territory for any of them.
3. All of the above leads to the conclusion that a stabilised WB while stronger than the Yonko, is not that much stronger.
4. Mihawks statement of there not being an overwhelming difference. You probably won't count this since you seem to be a Viz guy. Nothing wrong with that.
5. Crocodiles statement of the vast difference in strength between a healthy WB and the one at MF.
6. MF WB's inconsistent haki and intermittent heart attacks. haki is a core ability for any top tier fighter and the consistent loss of that is a severe handicap. WB nonchalantly swatting off over 100 attempts on his life by Ace in his sleep while MF WB getting stabbed by Squard indicates a huge difference in haki ability. Heart attacks also give opponents the opportunity to attack without retaliation.
7. Based on BM and Kaido's portrayed durability I don't think MF WB is putting them down fast enough before he is riddled with the haki problems and heart attacks. Shanks also seems to be a speedster who with his CoO can presumably hang tight until WB's condition overcomes him.

I could go on but based on all those points I don't see MF WB being strongest. I think you will have to bring a better argument than Sengoku.

To me:

Primebeard: 100
Old stabilised WB: 98 (Age doesn't handicap him nearly as much as a purely physical fighter like Garp imo)
Yonko: 96
WB at MF after stab: 91
Admirals: 89





Don Elson said:


> Yeah, maybe this. what Sera is saying make sense but I think WB in his prime it just too strong that no can really match him. Yonko right now is equal to WB in marineford without the heart attack, which is still above Admirals imo. Damn, WB was really that strong I sometimes forgot how strong he was.
> Also Blackbeard iirc stated that.



Oh yes I forgot about that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## MO (Sep 21, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Whitebeard tilts the island -> Big Mom rolls off of it -> Big Mom drowns. I'd say low to mid diff, because tilting an island is still one of Whitebeard's more powerful moves.



she has zeus to fly on.

WB does win but its extreme diff.


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## Dunno (Sep 21, 2017)

MO said:


> she has zeus to fly on.
> 
> WB does win but its extreme diff.


She has Zeus. She doesn't have the reaction time to use it though. We have seen multiple times that whenever she loses her ground, she shuts down and becomes unable to act at all. If WB tilts the island, she most likely wouldn't have the presence of mind to actually use Zeus.


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## MO (Sep 21, 2017)

Dunno said:


> She has Zeus. She doesn't have the reaction time to use it though. We have seen multiple times that whenever she loses her ground, she shuts down and becomes unable to act at all. If WB tilts the island, she most likely wouldn't have the presence of mind to actually use Zeus.



she is not in her tantrum in this fight i think.


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## Dunno (Sep 21, 2017)

MO said:


> she is not in her tantrum in this fight i think.


I'm not sure her tantrum is connected to her black-out symptoms she experiences whenever she's faced with something unexpected. My interpretation is that it merely makes her extremely focused on whatever it was that incited it, for the most part some kind of sweet. Her being all enraged should rather increase her ability to instinctively cope with a sudden loss of foothold than decrease it, you would think.


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## MO (Sep 21, 2017)

Dunno said:


> I'm not sure her tantrum is connected to her black-out symptoms she experiences whenever she's faced with something unexpected. My interpretation is that it merely makes her extremely focused on whatever it was that incited it, for the most part some kind of sweet. Her being all enraged should rather increase her ability to instinctively cope with a sudden loss of foothold than decrease it, you would think.



we haven't see how fast she reacts when she is out of her tantrum.

we have not seen big mom fight that much out of her tantrum. The only time she fought with her normal state of mind was when she fought the alliance at the top of the cake after they got out of bege and she destroyed them.


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## Dunno (Sep 21, 2017)

MO said:


> we haven't see how fast she reacts when she is out of her tantrum.
> 
> we have not seen big mom fight that much out of her tantrum. The only time she fought with her normal state of mind was when she fought the alliance at the top of the cake after they got out of bege and she destroyed them.


That is true. She might be a better fighter when she's not enraged, but I wouldn't be sure.


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## Ultimate Ningen (Sep 22, 2017)

Whitebeard completely roflstomps her

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gohara (Sep 22, 2017)

@ Seraphoenix.

I have said _between_ no difficulty and low difficulty against _Pre Time Skip Akainu_ but not no difficulty. However I _also_ think that Akainu becomes more powerful during the time skip because Oda levels up all the other main characters in the series including veteran characters such as The Blackbeard Pirates. Based on that as well as Akainu's personality I think that he's a level above what he was in The Marineford War Arc. Plus after _Caramel's character makes a distinction between Admiral level and Fleet Admiral level_, especially since she was discussing Abilities, I'm even more convinced that Fleet Admiral level is generally somewhat superior to Admiral level. So that adds even more to the possibility that Akainu becomes more powerful during the time skip to accommodate his role in the series. As such I do think that Akainu can put up a good match up against Shanks. Furthermore my view on their match ups depend a lot on whether Shanks is around Pirate King level which I admit is mostly speculative. If it turns out that Shanks is a level below Pirate King level then my opinion on those match ups would change as well with Akainu giving Shanks more difficulty.

@ chinesesoccerplayer.

If speed, reflexes, Haki, other physical aspects, etc. are all hindered due to his character's illness then why would his other physical aspects such as physical strength and defense be any different? Even an average flu is enough to fatigue a character and considerably reduce their physical capabilities. Character statements also imply the same thing with Crocodile and Marco referencing how hindered his character is in The Marineford War Arc.

True, Kaidou and Big Mam are Giants, but that doesn't change that Big Mam's physical feats are superior. Also that feat from Big Mam is when she wasn't even as tall as his character yet so I don't see how that would matter in that comparison anyways. You say that his character can replicate that feat but he hasn't even when matching up against a Giant character. You also mention that his character can replicate the other feats but how are you determining that? Even then Big Mam's character is presumably infinitely physically stronger now than she was at barely more than a toddler and also has Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities.

You mention that his character doesn't go all out against John Giant but that's not really the implication of that scene, he gets angry and nothing he does suggests that he holds back, and as you said they're in a War so I doubt that his character was even thinking of how amazing of a character John Giant is. 

His character in The Marineford War Arc is still amazing but specifically when it comes to physical strength and defense Kaidou's and Big Mam's characters are in a different league from the other Yonkou from what we've seen so far. It's nothing against his character. The same goes for Blackbeard's and Shanks' characters as well.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Sep 22, 2017)

Don't even know why this thread still going. We all know this going to end with wb quake -slapping the the shit out of meme before throwing her ass in the ocean. I'd pay good money to see oda draw a panel of a drowning meme with wb stand in the distance going guraguragura would easily be a 10/10 panel.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## trance (Sep 22, 2017)

i'd like to see big meme try to 'tank' his island splitter

would prolly make her regurgitate all those sweets like how cell regurgitated 18

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Sep 22, 2017)

Gohara said:


> If speed, reflexes, Haki, other physical aspects, etc. are all hindered due to his character's illness then why would his other physical aspects such as physical strength and defense be any different? Even an average flu is enough to fatigue a character and considerably reduce their physical capabilities. Character statements also imply the same thing with Crocodile and Marco referencing how hindered his character is in The Marineford War Arc.
> 
> True, Kaidou and Big Mam are Giants, but that doesn't change that Big Mam's physical feats are superior. Also that feat from Big Mam is when she wasn't even as tall as his character yet so I don't see how that would matter in that comparison anyways. You say that his character can replicate that feat but he hasn't even when matching up against a Giant character. You also mention that his character can replicate the other feats but how are you determining that? Even then Big Mam's character is presumably infinitely physically stronger now than she was at barely more than a toddler and also has Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities.
> 
> ...



I agree, Whitebeard was hindered in Marineford. But the main things that were hindered were his stamina (couldn't fight as long) and his reflexes (didn't avoid Squard's stab, like Marco and Crocodile pointed out). Everything else seemed just fine, his attacks were still just as lethal and his ability to tank hits certainly didn't decrease, which I'm going to conclude because we didn't see any of the other characters complaining about that at Marineford. They all said Whitebeard should have been able to dodge the stab, and Whitebeard himself said he was getting old, but he never complained about his strength or his offensive capabilities decreasing, and nobody else did either. And I'm saying that if only his stamina and reflexes are hindered it's not enough to make Whitebeard lose whereas before you seem to think he would win. Remember, this Whitebeard hasn't been stabbed or visibly injured in any way, if it were Whitebeard after he'd gotten stabbed I might agree Meme starts to get an edge but with no injuries there's no way he's gonna lose.

Also I'm gonna have to disagree with you about the common cold fatiguing a character. That's true in the real world, but in the One Piece world anybody worth a damn is gonna be able to fight just fine if they have a runny nose or a bad cough. It takes something really deadly like Whitebeard's illness to actually start impacting their fighting ability, and even then they should still be able to fight at their full ability for a relatively long period of time, which we clearly saw at Marineford. I think you're really overestimating the impact Whitebeard's illness has on his fighting ability, it hurt him yes, but what ultimately did him in at Marineford were injuries sustained in battle and treachery from the marines, not his illness.

Whitebeard took out John Giant in one hit; in my book, that's literally as close as you can get to what Big Mom did to Jorl. I don't see how what Whitebeard did was inferior to Big Mom in any way. And you seem to believe Whitebeard can't replicate any of Big Mom's other feats, which I have no idea why. Physically, Big Mom has: blocked Kong Gun, and made shock wave attacks with Napoleon. Do you really think Whitebeard can't do those exact same things if he wanted to? He split the sky in a clash with Shanks, every swing of his bisento at Marineford was cleaving the earth, and he almost SPLIT AN ENTIRE ISLAND IN HALF (and probably could if he wanted to, but by that point in the battle he was already close to dying and probably didn't have enough left in him). Yes has hasn't done the exact same things as Big Mom, but from what we've seen him do I'm going to logically conclude that physically and offensive-wise he is just as good if not better than Big Mom. In fact, offensively he flat-out IS better: Meme has yet to show anything on the level of splitting an island in half. Defensive wise though, I concede Big Mom might be superior because she is a giant and her body is "special". But physically and offensive wise? No way, he's literally the World's Strongest Man, that alone should tell you that when it comes to destructive potential, nobody is going to outclass him, at best they'll only be on par.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Lord Stark (Sep 23, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> -Him being portrayed as the strongest character at MF does not mean he was stronger than the other Yonko at that point. I asked you to back up this 'elaborate ruse' with manga facts but it seems you are not up to it. Probably because you can't link the man introduced as WSM with the man that was stabbed by Squardo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I mean it seems we are close enough in opinion.  We just interpreted the details/ translations a bit differently.  We can agree to disagree on this one.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Big Mom (Sep 23, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Guys ..... it's simple, WB was still introduced as the WSM however handicapped you want to believe he was. Yes technically, BM _is a woman_ (though that's debatable looking at her) but the essential point conveyed from Oda through that title and a few other statements (e.g. Buggy's), was that WB was still the top dog of the seas at that point in time.



Because of this reason alone I am giving it to Whitebeard with extreme difficulty, and nothing less. Big Mom is an absolute indestructible force of nature, and she can win if she can push Whitebeard long enough for his health to decline. So far, after everything that Big Mom has taken in this arc, she has not been damaged once, except for when she screamed. While not in her illness mode, she is a lot more competent and can effectively use her Napoleon, Prometheus, and Zeus effectively. While I'm sure she can't steal Whitebeard's soul, she can still use the entire country to her advantage.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Sep 23, 2017)

@ chinesesoccerplayer.

-I don't disagree that what Whitebeard's character does against John Giant's character isn't at least comparable to what Big Mam's character does against that legendary Giant character. Nonetheless Big Mam's feat is still superior overall since it takes out the legendary character as opposed to just making him unconscious. Furthermore if you agree that Big Mam's feat is comparable that's more than enough for me to say that Big Mam is significantly superior to Whitebeard's character in terms of physical strength since Big Mam should be infinitely physically stronger now than she was at barely more than a toddler. She's also achieved and likely mastered Haki since then and has Devil Fruit Abilities as well.

-It's not that those feats aren't amazing. It's just that they're not relative comparisons that suggest Whitebeard's character can do all the things that Big Mam can do. For example how do we relate splitting an Island with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities to easily blocking Gear 4th Luffy with just physical strength and Haki? Keep in mind as well that Gear 3rd Luffy several Arcs ago was already capable of destroying a Ship which is around half the size of Fishman Island. In other words the Ship itself is around Island sized. Gear 4th Luffy is several times physically superior to his Gear 3rd self. We also haven't seen Whitebeard's character match up against any character that we can confirm to be in the same league of physical strength as Luffy. Still their feats against Giant characters are relative comparisons to make and Big Mam's feat is significantly superior to that of Whitebeard's character. So what I think Whitebeard's character can do against Gear 4th Luffy isn't particularly relevant, I only need their feats against Giant characters to suggest that Big Mam is significantly superior in terms of physical strength to that version of Whitebeard's character. The sky feat is a Haki feat and I agree that most versions of Whitebeard's character likely has superior Haki.

-I don't disagree that Whitebeard's character can handle an illness better than normal Humans. However a flu is just an example. It still hinders a character's physical capabilities even if to varying degrees. As you know the illness that Whitebeard's character has isn't a flu either. You say that Whitebeard shows that his physical capabilities are not hindered by it but I'm not sure how we can determine that when we've only seen that version of his character in match ups so far. I'm not using match ups to make my point as we've only seen that version of his character in match ups so far but rather how the illness hinders his other physical capabilities which are related to the ones we're discussing. The idea that it would hinder some but not others just doesn't make much sense in my opinion. It's also an illness that effects most of the body and we see that it hinders Whitebeard's character to the point that it makes it more difficult for his character to move and shows more effect to his character than the combined wounds that Whitebeard's character has throughout the War. It's true that Marco didn't say something about every hindrance but I don't see why he should need to continuously make the same point about different parts. From a story perspective it would also be repetitive and make Oda seem silly.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gilgamesh (Sep 24, 2017)

Big Mom hating shitposters should be perm banned

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 2 | Dislike 2


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## A Optimistic (Sep 24, 2017)

Whitebeard quakes her like he did to Akainu, she has no chance of winning.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> i'd like to see big meme try to 'tank' his island splitter
> 
> would prolly make her regurgitate all those sweets like how cell regurgitated 18



Akainu took moderate damage at best, though I will admit that he was screwed up right when it hit him. He couldn't even stand up at the time and was temporarily disoriented. It's not like Akainu's durability has been mentioned as often as Big Mom's. His physical stats are canonically not even in the same department. Big Mom takes even less damage than Akainu, I'd think.

Akainu's fruit abilities are much stronger than Big Mom's, though.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Sep 24, 2017)

Gilgamesh said:


> Big Mom hating shitposters should be perm banned


My oh my such salt over a posts about a fictional character that you like going so far as to neg others.

Oh no how dare you shit on my favorite character but it's perfectly fine for me to shit on a character I don't like  spoken like a true shitposter.

Reactions: Like 2


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## A Optimistic (Sep 24, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> i'd like to see big meme try to 'tank' his island splitter
> 
> would prolly make her regurgitate all those sweets like how cell regurgitated 18


Funny part is he did that island splitter when he was missing half his head, had 2 heart attacks and numerous wounds.

Imagine how powerful his quake would be without all those injuries.

Big Mom has no chance.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2017)

Ava said:


> Funny part is he did that island splitter when he was missing half his head, had 2 heart attacks and numerous wounds.
> 
> Imagine how powerful his quake would be without all those injuries.
> 
> Big Mom has no chance.



Can he land one before he gets a heart attack? He got a jump on Akainu because of Marco.


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## trance (Sep 24, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> Big Mom takes even less damage than Akainu, I'd think.



if you think she's taking that to the abdomen or head and only sustaining superficial damage or whatever you wanna call it, then idk what to say


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## A Optimistic (Sep 24, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> Can he land one before he gets a heart attack? He got a jump on Akainu because of Marco.


He lasted a long time before his first heart attack.


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## A Optimistic (Sep 24, 2017)

Whitebeard came to Marineford at Chapter 551.

He had his heart attack during Chapter 568.

That's 17 chapters.

Plenty of time to quake Big Mom.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> if you think she's taking that to the abdomen or head and only sustaining superficial damage or whatever you wanna call it, then idk what to say



It's not like Akainu took a ridiculous amount of damage from it. He was definitely somewhat damaged, but it wasn't enough damage to stop him from finding land and taking on Whitebeard's commanders not too long after. If he was really that screwed up after the attack, how weak does that make Aokiji when Akainu won and spared his life? Heavy damage should leave an impact on a character, but I didn't notice that with Akainu.


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## A Optimistic (Sep 24, 2017)

King Itachi said:


> It's not like Akainu took a ridiculous amount of damage from it. He was definitely somewhat damaged, but it wasn't enough damage to stop him from finding land and taking on Whitebeard's commanders not too long after. If he was really that screwed up after the attack, how weak does that make Aokiji when Akainu won and spared his life? Heavy damage should leave an impact on a character, but I didn't notice that with Akainu.


But Whitebeard had other opponents to keep fighting afterwards.

In a 1v1, he would just follow up that island splitting attack with another island splitting attack.

Akainu is lucky the floor broke and WHitebeard had other Marines and the Blackbeard Pirates to keep him occupied, Big Mom doesn't get that luxury.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 24, 2017)

Ava said:


> But Whitebeard had other opponents to keep fighting afterwards.
> 
> In a 1v1, he would just follow up that island splitting attack with another island splitting attack.
> 
> Akainu is lucky the floor broke and WHitebeard had other Marines and the Blackbeard Pirates to keep him occupied, Big Mom doesn't get that luxury.



I'm not doubting that, man. If Akainu didn't fall into that crevice, Whitebeard would have fucked him up. He was temporarily disoriented and incapable of fighting, unless one thinks an admiral can't stand up and make a small jump to land. It's just that the one attack did no lasting damage. Most of that energy split the island and didn't mess up Akainu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Good vibes (Sep 24, 2017)

In all seriousness though this thread is premature. Oda is still using meme as a plot device and until we actually see her fight someone who actually stand a chance against her (in other words not this arc) it's still basically an assumption game in how she would  against wb and with what she has shown so far she's gonna get quake slapped.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## chinesesoccerplayer (Sep 24, 2017)

@Gohara 

I guess we're just going to have to agree to disagree, but this part of your statement just boggled my mind: 



Gohara said:


> We also haven't seen Whitebeard's character match up against any character that we can confirm to be in the same league of physical strength as Luffy.



Are u serious??? I don't know if we've been reading the same manga, but I distinctly remember Whitebeard clashing multiple times against AKAINU in marineford, who I have no doubt is still _way _out of Luffy's league in terms of physical strength. Or what about Whitebeard's clash with Shanks??? You don't think Shanks is at the very least in the same league of physical strength as Luffy? Those are just the first two names that came off the top my mind, but I'm sure that there are at least a few more characters Whitebeard skirmished with in Marineford who are at the very least comparable to Luffy in terms of physical strength.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Orca (Sep 24, 2017)

While I do think WB wins, i don't agree with WB being the 100% guaranteed strongest around the time of Marineford.

A lot of WB's hype and reputation comes from years of dominance and not just from a year and two. So given that a lot of people hadn't seen WB in years, not many would know how much he had weakened, there's lots of room for him being strongest only in reputation.

From storytelling/Oda perspective, Oda showed us a weakened WB to mantain the mystique around the true power of someone like Prime Roger/WB, yet at the same time he didn't make him so weak where it would take away from the Aura of WB and the character.

Overall, like a lot of things in one piece, I think Oda left it vague whether WB truly was the strongest but not at the expense of WB looking like the biggest badass at MF.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Sep 24, 2017)

@ chinesesoccerplayer.

I think that I rank Gear 4th Luffy's physical strength higher than you do.  I don't see any character in the series being way out of Gear 4th Luffy's league of physical strength.  Especially not characters that aren't Kaidou and Big Mam.  Gear 3rd Luffy is one of the physically stronger characters in the series having even pushed back characters like Fujitora and being capable of destroying an Island sized Ship.  Gear 4th Luffy is significantly superior to Gear 3rd Luffy and has even shown significantly superior physical strength to another very physically strong character Doflamingo.  Which suggests that Gear 4th Luffy is significantly physically stronger than characters like Fujitora.  So unless Pre Time Skip Akainu is far physically stronger than the other Admirals, although I do think that he's a level above them in that aspect, then I can't rightfully say that it's confirmed without question that Pre Time Skip Akainu is in the same league of physical strength or at least around as physically strong as Gear 4th Luffy.

However that's the key word, confirmed.  I'm not necessarily saying that Pre Time Skip Akainu isn't in the same league of physical strength as Gear 4th Luffy.  It's just that there's nothing proving that since we've only seen him match up against a hindered version of Old Whitebeard's character so far and using that match up would be circular reasoning anyways since that's one of the topics that we're discussing.

As for Shanks, I'm not including one panel clashes, although like with Pre Time Skip Akainu there's no conclusive proof that he is around as physically strong as Gear 4th Luffy.  

As you said though we can agree to disagree and I respect your views either way.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 25, 2017)

_I don't know, i have a hard time seeing Whitebeard put down Big Mom before his ilness aggravates. and he starts going through heart attacks and what not.

I think this would start quite even, like his clash with Shanks. Then Whitebeard goes rage mode, and he dominates Big Mom, the way he did Akainu. I know he took Akainu by surprise, but that was an already injured, post heart attack/Squardo stab Whitebeard. Beginning of the war Whitebeard can probably force a similar scenario in 1 vs 1 combat against anyone, if he pushes himself enough.

Problem is that i don't see him finishing off Big Mom or any other Yonko before his deteriorating health get's the better of him. 

And this is also another reason for why i don't take the world's strongest titles as absolute. Whitebeard could technically still perform at a higher level than anyone else alive for a while, but his biggest enemy would be his sickness, which would end up causing his demise against someone close enough to his strength to outlast his early spike in power._

Reactions: Winner 1


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