# Rob Lucci vs. Crocodile



## MYJC (Sep 9, 2013)

Pre-skip version of both. Starting distance is 50m. A few conditions:

1. Croc is tangible
2. Both fighters have general knowledge of each other's general fighting style. 


Who takes it?


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 9, 2013)

S1: Rob rapes Croc so bad it's not even funny. 
S2: Rob wins.


----------



## trance (Sep 9, 2013)

S1: Croc tanked a Haki attack from Jozu but Lucci is _much_ faster. Gonna say Lucci takes it mid difficulty.

S2: Lucci covers his fist with his blood and takes it mid difficulty.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Sep 9, 2013)

Lucci is much faster than Jozu?


----------



## trance (Sep 9, 2013)

> Lucci is much faster than Jozu?



Where did you interpret that from? 

Thread is about Lucci and Croc...


----------



## Rob (Sep 9, 2013)

Lucci takes both. 

The first one is a no-brainer. 

Croc gets fucking molested. 

As for scenario two, since knowledge will help Lucci more than Croc, Lucci should take this too. 
Blood is the key.


----------



## Imagine (Sep 9, 2013)

Scenario 1: Lucci turns Croc's insides into mush.

Scenario 2: Croc being untouchable gives him the advantage here, but Lucci having knowledge on Croc's abilities is a disadvantage for Croc. If Lucci decides to self harm himself then he has a chance, other than that he'd likely lose.

Location can also be an advantage for Lucci.


----------



## Sablés (Sep 9, 2013)

Croc rapes both.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 9, 2013)

Lucci shitstomps scenario 1
We already saw what happens when Alabasta Luffy fought Crocodile when he was fully tangible 

Scenario 2 Lucci dodges everything then shigans him to the throat, low difficulty win.


----------



## TheShadowGekkoMoriah (Sep 10, 2013)

Crocodile is 1 of my favorite chars but yeah Lucci Low Diff


----------



## RF (Sep 10, 2013)

The top tier Marineford Crocodile wins low-diff.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Croc gets destroyed.


----------



## tupadre97 (Sep 11, 2013)

Rape thread. What did Croc ever do to you?


----------



## Alaude (Sep 11, 2013)

Lucci wins both...


----------



## Dunno (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc rapes.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Dunno said:


> Croc rapes.



Common, dude was outmatched by pre-gear Luffy in CQC, the fuck is he going to do to Lucci ?


----------



## November (Sep 11, 2013)

Lucy Lucci takes this :ignoramus


----------



## Halcyon (Sep 11, 2013)

What? I remember seeing this match already.

The Lucci rapes 1st scenario.

Lucci wins 2nd mid-high diff.


----------



## Dunno (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Common, dude was outmatched by pre-gear Luffy in CQC, the fuck is he going to do to Lucci ?



He also managed to block attacks from Mihawk and Doflamingo, who should both be quite a bit faster than Lucci. He was also able to save Luffy from Akainu and tank a named attack from Jozu without that much damage. I just don't see Croc at MF losing to one of the NW captains or weaker VA. Doflamingo just played around with Atmos but wanted Crocodile as an ally, which to me puts Crocodile above Atmos and the rest of the weaker commanders and captains. 

Also Moria was definitely the weakest Shichibukai, with the WG even dispatching Doflamingo to kill him for being too weak, and Moria was comparable to Lucci when it comes to strength. But of course, if you don't accept that Crocodile could have become stronger from Alabasta to MF, then he doesn't stand much of a chance.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> He also managed to block attacks from Mihawk and Doflamingo



A bit of careful reading and you'll notice that it was Mihawk blocking an attack from Crocodile, and not vice versa. Doflamingo was toying with him. I thought that was obvious, the way he didn't bother to infuse his strings with haki. He wanted him to join his organization, so it wasn't a wise thing to kill him instantaneously. They had a brief clash from which we can only gather that Doflamigno can block Crocodile's hook with his leg, and that's about it. 



> He was also able to save Luffy from Akainu



He got an attack off at a distracted Akainu which did next to nothing - the same way Squardo stabbed Whitebeard, only this was so much more effective. Robin crushed Aokiji in two, but that doesn't make her high tier. 



> tank a named attack from Jozu without that much damage



I thought we debated this before ? Crocodile taking a serious attack from Jozu is literally impossible unless Oda says fuck you to any logical consisentcy. It doesn't match up to any material given about Crocodile's durability, so we mark it as an outlier and give a proper in-universe explanation as to why Crocodile wasn't instantly knocked out - in this case it being a rather simple explanation; Jozu held back. 



> I just don't see Croc at MF losing to one of the NW captains or weaker VA



Why not? Luffy intercepted Crocodile's assasination attempt at Whitebeard like he was a toddler caught reaching for the cookie jar. The moment the Vice Admirals (Momonga, Dalmatian) went for Luffy, he was made instantly helpless and couldn't do a damn thing to either of them; yet the New World captains (Doma, McGuy, Decalvan brothers) were able to match them equally. 



> if you don't accept that Crocodile could have become stronger from Alabasta to MF, then he doesn't stand much of a chance.



There's a possibility he got stronger, sure. He probably did. But you don't comprehend how massively stronger he would have to get for your argument to work. Gear 2 Luffy towers above Crocodile, and Lucci was just about equal to him. There is absolutely no possible way for Crocodile to grow as much as Luffy, the Supernova with the most potential who fought bigger obstacles and trained getting a ridiculous power-up by sitting in prison. That's absolutely impossible.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Sep 11, 2013)

Mr. E Man said:


> S1: Croc tanked a Haki attack from Jozu but Lucci.



Maybe you are forgetting that Lucci with Tenkai tanked pretty much all of Luffy's attacks in W7 right?

Anyway, since Croc is tangible and we saw how Luffy in Alabasta defeated him and we saw Lucci in base rapestomping W7 Luffy...
Lucci rapes.

As for the second scenario... LoL Lucci having knowledge is basically the same as scenario one. Lucci isn't going to be stupid and fight without using the only methods to make Croc tangible.
So yeah, he rapes again, he just needs to make a few scratches in himself, which he can endure just fine and spread some blood in his fists/feet.

Lucci doesn't even need to use his Zoan forms.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> I thought we debated this before ? Crocodile taking a serious attack from Jozu is literally impossible unless Oda says fuck you to any logical consisentcy. It doesn't match up to any material given about Crocodile's durability, so we mark it as an outlier and give a proper in-universe explanation as to why Crocodile wasn't instantly knocked out - in this case it being a rather simple explanation; Jozu held back.



Why is this an outlier. Manga fact is fact. Stop spinning your logic around it. 

Why would jozu hold back against a person in war who is trying to kill his crewmates.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Crocodile was defeated by a dozen of punches and a storm from Arabasta Luffy. The punishment that the entire Strawhat crew dished out against the Pacifista is far greater than that, and current Luffy easily replicates the same amount of damage with casual punches. A full-power blow from Jozu is far greater than punches from current Luffy, so I ask you; how the fuck can Crocodile take a punch from Jozu?

I know some of you are already accustomed to the idea that he's simply powerful enough to do so, and I disagree with that. Oda drew that scene because he thought it would look cool or something, he didn't think of powerlevles when drawing it. But that's what we're debating now. Strength of a character. And it makes next to no sense that Crocodile is capable of tanking that attack; thus I infer that it's an outlier as it mismatches any of his other feats, and conclude that Jozu was simply holding back.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> how the fuck can Crocodile take a punch from Jozu?



Because oda said so. This is a shonen series not a math equation or a science theory.

One piece or any shonen series is riddled with inconsistencies or illogical bullshit. Why are strawhats always at the right place at the right time? Because oda said so. How can zoro lift buildings? Because oda said so. You can't spin your own logic around it.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Oda drew that scene because he thought it would look cool or something



What kind of argument is this??

Why was whitebeard kicking ass at MF?Because oda wanted him to look cool. Why can zoro do the shit he does? Because oda wants to make him look cool. Why can garp destroy 8 mountains? Because oda wants to make him look cool.

Why would oda do anything if he doesn't want to portray a character in a certain way??



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> he didn't think of powerlevles when drawing it



How the fuck do you know? Are you oda? Are you his assistant? Were you sitting beside him when he drew that?


The bottom line is you can't put your own logic into things. If a mangaka shows something a certain way then that's how it is. If we were to go into small details then every manga is full of illogical bullshit.

As for the op. I think it can go either way.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc suposedly getting stronger in prison makes 0 sense. Also I agree with Sakazuki Jozu had to be holding back. Also for all of you people out there who said Croc took Jozu's attack without much trouble Croc said i'm out when Jozu punched him. Either way you interpret it Tthe next punch was going to put Croc down.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

We can't use our sense here. Luffy making out of magellan's venom with his determination made zero sense to me. But I'm not the one to decide how things work, Oda is. Logically speaking zoro was suppose to die after taking luffy's pain. Why didn't he? Because oda said so.

As I said, this is just a shonen series,not a math equation.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Well Luffy has showed multiple times that his wilpower to live is one of the greates in the series.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Pell surviving the bomb makes no sense. But whether we like it or not, that's what happened.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Slenderman said:


> Well Luffy has showed multiple times that his wilpower to live is one of the greates in the series.



No matter how much willpower you have, you can't survive poison. Especially the amount luffy got injected with.


----------



## jNdee~ (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc losses both scene


----------



## ShadowReaper (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc for both scenarios, of course if it's MF Croc.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 11, 2013)

If anyone thinks Croc loses this, he has a reading comprehension issues or he is mentally challenged.
Seriously Lucci cant even dream of having Croc's feats in Marineford.
Of course there are still posters here in denial.
Croc needs *one* hit to get him.


----------



## King of heaven (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc take this .


----------



## punisher223 (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc Takes it 

Give Lucci additional handicaps such as haki, Kairoseki, or an unfavorable location for croc (ship at sea, docks, sinking water 7, etc) and the tables might turn


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> Because oda said so. This is a shonen series not a math equation or a science theory.



If you don't share even the most basic premise with your opponent which is to make an _universally logical_ conclusion based on all accountable feats, then you shouldn't even bother debating. 



> Why was whitebeard kicking ass at MF?Because oda wanted him to look cool. Why can zoro do the shit he does? Because oda wants to make him look cool. Why can garp destroy 8 mountains? Because oda wants to make him look cool.



Way to completely miss the point. None of those mentioned were inconsistent. Whitebeard can kick ass, so he did. Garp can destroy 8 mountains, and he did. Crocodile _can not_ take a fullpower blow from Jozu based on a dozen of his durability feats, but he still did. Anyone with half a brain could understand that Oda neglected consistency for a moment to raise the tension - and that's it. That's what an outlier is. Oda is a generally consistent writer, but he makes mistakes like anyone else does. It's why any serious debater will take these feats with a grain of salt, unless you're now going to play the devils advocate and claim that Croc is indeed powerful enough to tank such an attack - and essentially admit that Oda's manga is inconsistent as fuck, and that there's no point for this battledome to even exist as the rapid changes of a characters strength depend on the authors whim.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc standing next to top tiers and not instantly dying is somehow impressive, but you'll notice how all those Crocfags conveniently ignore how Luffy (Lucci's equal) swatted away his attempt to take Whitebeard's life with ease and had him back out just a singe instance later - despite the fact that Whitebeard was the sole reason he came to the war in the first place.

The rapmant denial and wank in this section is unbelievable.


----------



## trance (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Why is this an outlier. Manga fact is fact. Stop spinning your logic around it.
> 
> Why would jozu hold back against a person in war who is trying to kill his crewmates.



An outlier is a feat that severely ignores the consistency of a story.

-Pell surviving a nuke is an outlier.

-Roshi busting the moon (when someone far stronger than him was exhausted after unleashing a city buster) is an outlier.

-Deathstroke tagging the Flash is an outlier.

And so on and so on...

Jozu arguably did damage as much damage to Kuzan as he did to Croc. We all know Croc isn't as durable as Kuzan, so either Jozu's attack on Croc was non-serious or it's an outlier.


----------



## Grimm6Jack (Sep 11, 2013)

>Crocodile was legitimately beaten by Alabasta Luffy.

>W7 Luffy is stronger than Alabasta Luffy.

>Base Lucci roflstomped W7 Luffy.
>Full power Lucci gave an extreme-diff fight to G2 Luffy.

>Crocodile after being beaten was in prison and of course could not train to get any stronger.

>His feats in Marineford are made right after he is released from prison.


So, please, can anyone, in this goddamn section, tell me, how the fuck Crocodile can win this when Lucci in one scenario is against him tangible and in the other he has the knowledge to make him tangible?

Like really?


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> Way to completely miss the point. None of those mentioned were inconsistent. Whitebeard can kick ass, so he did. Garp can destroy 8 mountains, and he did. Crocodile _can not_ take a fullpower blow from Jozu based on a dozen of his durability feats, but he still did. Anyone with half a brain could understand that Oda neglected consistency for a moment to raise the tension - and that's it. That's what an outlier is. Oda is a generally consistent writer, but he makes mistakes like anyone else does. It's why any serious debater will take these feats with a grain of salt, unless you're now going to play the devils advocate and claim that Croc is indeed powerful enough to tank such an attack - and essentially admit that Oda's manga is inconsistent as fuck, and that there's no point for this battledome to even exist as the rapid changes of a characters strength depend on the authors whim.



The manga is on for 16 years.
Things do change. Of course there are inconsistencies.
Oda considered Croc a serious powerhouse back in arabasta.
He created stronger opponents as the series went on.
Then he thought "fuck the shichibukai are a world power, Croc has to be a powerhouse, and he is an awesome character as well.. so I will bring him back, make him stronger and have him survive against strong opponents".
Thats it more or less.
If he wanted to leave Crocodile at Arbasta level, he would have one shotted him with Jozu, Donflamingo or Mihawk. Well he didnt do that, and Croc is back in the new world.
Its not that hard of a concept to get, any author can rethink characters and powers within a 16 year span.
There are tv shows or even literature where characters were meant to die or get out of the story, but the authors rethought the chracter's purpose and got them back in as main characters.
Its basic storytelling, now if you hate Croc and that mkes you so fucking butthurt thats your problem.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> Then he thought "fuck the shichibukai are a world power, Croc has to be a powerhouse, and he is an awesome character as well.. so I will bring him back, make him stronger and have him survive against strong opponents".



This is just wrong. Oda is way too good of a writer to do that, and I simply _won't_ consider him that strong because his feats - which consist of standing next to top tiers and having your attack repelled with ease by Luffy - don't support such a notion.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffy's first gomu gomu no pistol on Crocodile put him in a worse condition than Jozu's brilliant punk did


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 11, 2013)

How do you explain Crocodile standing after getting hit by Jozu, and Moria getting wrecked after a punch from Jimbe ?
If Oda really wanted to make Crocodile look weak he had many opportunities in Marineford to do that.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee said:


> No matter how much willpower you have, you can't survive poison. Especially the amount luffy got injected with.



You now that if he died the story would stop right? That's also a testament to Ivancov's abilities. If it wasn't for Iva Luffy would've died.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> How do you explain Crocodile standing after getting hit by Jozu



How do you explain Luffy being relatively unharmed after being hit by Sengoku/Mihawk/Kizaru?

Are you going to chalk it up to Luffy's "durability" as well?



> If Oda really wanted to make Crocodile look weak he had many opportunities in Marineford to do that.



Oda showed us that Luffy is capable of intercepting Crocodile's attack with ease, and we saw how Crocodile backed out despite the fact that Luffy was the only person preventing him from attacking Whitebeard.


----------



## GaaraoftheDesert1 (Sep 11, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Luffy's first gomu gomu no pistol on Crocodile put him in a worse condition than Jozu's brilliant punk did



Its funny cause its true.
By Arabasta feats Crocodile coming out of Marineford alive and doing the things he did, doesnt make any sense...


----------



## Bitty (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc saw Jozu coming...he couldn't react to his attack & was sent flying in his own blood.
he gave Jozu praise & then said "im out" as he stood there helpless coughing up blood as Jozu was seconds away from doing it again before Dofla saved him.  How is that taking an attack without much damage?  

I don't care if Jozu 1-shots Crocs or not, he still stomps him almost no effort.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> If you don't share even the most basic premise with your opponent which is to make an universally logical conclusion based on all accountable feats, then you shouldn't even bother debating.



I am making the most logical explanation based on what the mangaka is providing. I'm not the one making things outliers based on my own logic. If everyone started making their own logics then OPBD would fail.

Since you like to play this "logical explanation" game, I can play that too. So crocodile taking a full power hit from Jozu can also suggest that jozu isn't god compared to Alabasta luffy or crocodile was not feeling well and therefore not in the best shape when luffy fought him. This is a more "logical explanation" then jozu holding back for no fucking reason. 

See how that game works both ways??



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> That's what an outlier is. Oda is a generally consistent writer, but he makes mistakes like anyone else does. It's why any serious debater will take these feats with a grain of salt, unless you're now going to play the devils advocate and claim that Croc is indeed powerful enough to tank such an attack - and essentially admit that Oda's manga is inconsistent as fuck, and that there's no point for this battledome to even exist as the rapid changes of a characters strength depend on the authors whim.



Yes croc is that powerful to tank Jozu's attack. Why? Because oda wants him to be that way.

- Tanks Jozu's attack.
- Portrayed as dealing equally with Doffy(I'm not saying he was equal)
- Not allowing Mihawk to attack

Oda could've used any other character to do the above things. Why did he choose Croc? Because oda wants to portray him that way. Not to raise the tension for a single moment because he can use any other character for that.

No way in hell is croc tanking an outlier


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> I am making the most logical explanation based on what the mangaka is providing. I'm not the one making things outliers based on my own logic. If everyone started making their own logics then OPBD would fail.



There are 10 durability feats suggesting Crocodile is genuinely hurt by Arabasta Luffy punches. There's 1 feat completely inconsisent compared to the material given at hand. Thus, I call it an outlier. 



> Since you like to play this "logical explanation" game, I can play that too. So crocodile taking a full power hit from Jozu can also suggest that jozu isn't god compared to Alabasta luffy or crocodile was not feeling well and therefore not in the best shape when luffy fought him.* This is a more "logical explanation"* then jozu holding back for no fucking reason.



No it's not. Do you even read my posts? 


> Crocodile was defeated by a dozen of punches and a storm from Arabasta Luffy. The punishment that the entire Strawhat crew dished out against the Pacifista is far greater than that, and current Luffy easily replicates the same amount of damage with casual punches. A full-power blow from Jozu is far greater than punches from current Luffy, so I ask you; how the fuck can Crocodile take a punch from Jozu?



For Crocodile to actually take a full-power blow from Jozu, he'd have to be stronger by a _gargantuan_ amount from his Arabasta self - by rotting in a fucking prison - which would in hand mean that his growth rate is so ridiculously above Luffy's that its not even funny. Y'know, Luffy, the dude with the most potential in the entire manga and the future Pirate King. 

No reason? Was there a reason to go all-out? Do you slam a fly with full force when you try to kill it? 



> Yes croc is that powerful to tank Jozu's attack. Why? Because oda wants him to be that way.



No, he's fucking not. The dude was below Marineford Luffy in strength, and Oda had people on Jozu's level one shoot far stronger opponent than that. It's an outlier.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

All of these marine ford things that Croc did isn't even that impressive and @ Luffe do you know what tanked means because if you did you wouldn't be saying Croc tanked Jozu's punch. When Law used counter shock on Vergo and it did next to nothing that is tanking something. When you get punched and you're on your knee and you praise the guy then say i'm out that's not tanking something that's called feeling an attack. Croc's best feat is defeating pre gears Alabasta Luffy. One of Jozu's best feats is making an admiral bleed. Even if it was slightly. What did Croc do when he attacked Akainu nothing.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> There are 10 durability feats suggesting Crocodile is genuinely hurt by Arabasta Luffy punches. There's 1 feat completely inconsisent compared to the material given at hand. Thus, I call it an outlier.





			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> For Crocodile to actually take a full-power blow from Jozu, he'd have to be stronger by a gargantuan amount from his Arabasta self - by rotting in a fucking prison - which would in hand mean that his growth rate is so ridiculously above Luffy's that its not even funny. Y'know, Luffy, the dude with the most potential in the entire manga and the future Pirate King.



I'm afraid that's how things work in shonen. Sanji was barely able to phase blueno. Couple of hours later, without any training, being more exhausted then before, he was able to trash Jyabura whose rokushiki was more then twice Blueno's.

Now don't tell me sanji vs Jyabura was an outlier.



			
				Slenderman said:
			
		

> You now that if he died the story would stop right? That's also a testament to Ivancov's abilities. If it wasn't for Iva Luffy would've died.



That's beside the point. You said croc's feat didn't make sense to you. I provided you with an example that didn't make sense to me. Here's a better example. Why didn't kizaru blast luffy's head instead of the keys?

And tanking means to take damage and survive whether you feel pain or not. So you need to check your own definition.


----------



## Dunno (Sep 11, 2013)

GaaraoftheDesert1 said:


> The manga is on for 16 years.
> Things do change. Of course there are inconsistencies.
> Oda considered Croc a serious powerhouse back in arabasta.
> He created stronger opponents as the series went on.
> ...



This is exactly what happened.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> I'm afraid that's how things work in shonen.



This is not an argument.



> Sanji was barely able to phase blueno. Couple of hours later, without any training, being more exhausted then before, he was able to trash Jyabura whose rokushiki was more then twice Blueno's.



We have an on-panel statement saying that the Strawhats didn't fight at full power because they were riddled with doubt. 

Crocodile had no such thing going for him. He was planning Operation Utopia for years, and the only thing that was standing in his path in becoming the strongest man in the world was Luffy. In a straight - up fight where Luffy had a consistent way to connect blows, he outmatched Crocodile and defeated him. Oda named that chapter "Exceeding the opponent". Whether you like it or not, Crocodile was surpassed by Luffy in Arabasta, and him rotting in prison for several months doesn't grant him a greater growth rate than the main character himself. 

It's much easier to accept one feat as an outlier than to consider the entire manga an illogical inconsistency in itself, which is what you're doing.


----------



## trance (Sep 11, 2013)

> Why didn't kizaru blast luffy's head instead of the keys?



CIS bro....


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee said:


> I'm afraid that's how things work in shonen. Sanji was barely able to phase blueno. Couple of hours later, without any training, being more exhausted then before, he was able to trash Jyabura whose rokushiki was more then twice Blueno's.
> 
> Now don't tell me sanji vs Jyabura was an outlier.
> 
> ...



Tanking is taking an attack without much damage right know you're just avoiding what I said. Croc didn't tank shit. So when Luffy used GM on CC and he didn't kill him did CC tank Luffy's attack no. Unless you're going to tell me that CC tanked GM. Your argument is full of faulty logic because you could say Croc could tank Jozu's attack but you probably won't say CC tanked GM. In both cases neither of them tanked anything. Try again.


----------



## Bitty (Sep 11, 2013)

Croc didn't tank Jozu's attack. He survived it & endured it without passing out.
It's not tanking when an attack has you defeated & done for.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> We have an on-panel statement saying that the Strawhats didn't fight at full power because they were riddled with doubt.



Don't try to cop out now. Sanji never doubted robin. That's why I specifically mentioned him and not the other strawhats.

And even though sanji never doubted robin, it's stupid to believe that the removal of a simple doubt allowed him to trash jyabura who is more then twice powerful then blueno.

But it's not stupid because that's how things work. Same goes with croc.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Tanking is taking an attack without much damage right know you're just avoiding what I said. Croc didn't tank shit. So when Luffy used GM on CC and he didn't kill him did CC tank Luffy's attack no. Unless you're going to tell me that CC tanked GM. Your argument is full of faulty logic because you could say Croc could tank JOzu's attack but you probably won't say CC tanked GM because in both cases neither of them tanked anything.



Why is zoro considered a tank? According to your definition his tanking level is the same as others. The amount of pain you feel has jack shit to do with Tanking.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> Don't try to cop out now. Sanji never doubted robin. That's why I specifically mentioned him and not the other strawhats.



Ehh, haven't read those chapters in ages. Don't remember Sanji not doubting her though. 



> And even though sanji never doubted robin, it's stupid to believe that the removal of a simple doubt allowed him to trash jyabura who is more then twice powerful then blueno.



But that's exactly what happened. They didn't want to fight because they were full of doubt. When they were sure they were doing the right thing, they started fighting at their full power.



> But it's not stupid because that's how things work. Same goes with croc.



So in other words, this manga depends on the authors mood and there's no consistency in it? This debate is over.


----------



## punisher223 (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee said:


> Why did he choose Croc? *Because oda wants to portray him that way.* Not to raise the tension for a single moment because he can use any other character for that



   ^
This

Its funny people can have conflicting opinions and debate their points all day, but what the author writes is fact. Yes croc did loose to luffy (1/3) in alabasta and yes Crocodile did clash with Doflamingo, Mihawk, and Akainu at Marineford. Opinions and retroactive continuity aside, whether one likes it or not both are facts.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

You know what also happened? Luffy easily swatted away Crocodile's attack and the sandman backed out.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> But that's exactly what happened. They didn't want to fight because they were full of doubt. When they were sure they were doing the right thing, they started fighting at their full power.



No that's not what happened. Yes strawhats doubted robin but not sanji.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> This debate is over.



Yes it is over. Because now you don't have a counter argument for sanji's powerup and want to take the short lane.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Was there a statement for Sanji not doubting Robin? If so, post the panel and I'll concede.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> You know what also happened? Luffy easily swatted away Crocodile's attack and the sandman backed out.



You know what also happened? Mihawk wasn't able to go after luffy because croc stood in his way.



			
				8bit said:
			
		

> Croc didn't tank Jozu's attack. He *survived it & endured it without passing out.*
> It's not tanking when an attack has you defeated & done for.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

> You know what also happened? Mihawk wasn't able to go after luffy because croc stood in his way.



'Cept that didn't happen at all. Mihawk blocked Crocodiles attack and thats it.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

And what was mihawk doing? He was attacking luffy. Why didn't he continue?


----------



## Bitty (Sep 11, 2013)

Zoro is considered a tank because his body can withstand an exceptional amount of damage without being defeated. Attacks that may phase other characters on his level won't phase him as much.

Jozu's attack phased Croc & had him defeated.  He said it himself he couldn't take it, aka he can't tank it.
Vergo survived two DJ attacks to the face & was able to keep fighting...that's tanking.  But once he was hit by the last hit from Law, he was done for.......even though he was still conscience.  

once again...Croc saw Jozu coming...he couldn't react to his attack & was sent flying in his own blood.
he gave Jozu praise & then said "im out" as he stood there helpless coughing up blood as Jozu was seconds away from doing it again before Dofla saved him.  Just because you're not passed out doesn't mean you tanked it.  Did Monet tank that slash from Zoro? she was still standing not passed out right? no! she was 
defeated regardless.  well that's my definition at least. if you have a different one no choice but to agree to disagree lol.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee said:


> And what was mihawk doing? He was attacking luffy. Why didn't he continue?



There was a tonfuck of powerful New World captains surrounding Luffy. There's a reason why Oda never showed us Crocodile legitimately fighting on par with a top tier in the war.


----------



## punisher223 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> 'Cept that didn't happen at all. Mihawk blocked Crocodiles attack and thats it.



Part true

Fact: Crocodile did intercept Mihawk's attack
Fact: Mihawk did block Croc's interception
Fact: Luffy did get away
Fact: no one knows what happend after


Opinion:  Mihawk could not go after luffy 
Opinion:  Mihawk chose not to go after luffy

Fact: Mihawk did not go after luffy



Sakazuki said:


> There was a tonfuck of powerful New World captains surrounding Luffy. There's a reason why Oda never showed us Crocodile legitimately fighting on par with a top tier in the war.



Thats an opinion


*Spoiler*: __ 



This thread got off topic fast


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

It's an opinion, but a logical one. Croc wasn't able to comprehend the speeds Jozu was moving at, no way in fucking hell is he going to do anything to a motivated and serious Mihawk in combat.


----------



## Zorofangirl24 (Sep 11, 2013)

Why would Mihawk fight a fellow shichiboukai he has no business with? Croc wankers are funny.
He was destroyed by bloodlusted base Luffy, Lucci who is way faster speed blitzes this.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Zorofangirl24 said:


> Why would Mihawk fight a fellow shichiboukai he has no business with? Croc wankers are funny.



I actually agree with you on that this is surprising.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

And just as a side remark - Haruhifan is the most reasonable person other than a select few to post in this thread.


----------



## punisher223 (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:


> It's an opinion, but a logical one. Croc wasn't able to comprehend the speeds Jozu was moving at, no fucking hell is he going to do anything to a motivated and serious Mihawk in combat.



Most opinions are logical to individuals, in short my point for this scenario is simply:  personal opinions (on any side) < Authors Fact


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Was there a statement for Sanji not doubting Robin? If so, post the panel and I'll concede



I was looking for the panels and I found an even better one. Nami told robin's story to sanji when sanji was on the first box of the train. So even though he didn't have any doubts, now he knows the full story too. He confirms this to luffy and luffy tells him to kick their asses.



Now concede.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

What 

How does this suggest that he didn't have doubts ?


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

How does he have doubts anymore???? I didn't look for the panels where he didn't have doubts after I found this.

Now you're being ignorant.


----------



## trance (Sep 11, 2013)

Has it has been said, either Jozu wasn't serious or it was an outlier. Either or, Lucci still rapes this.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Okay, I took some time to reread the chapters, and there's absolutely nothing inconsistent there, as Sanji obviously didn't go all-out. 

He was in a regular mindset and kicked Blueno once with a casual kick - he was surprised by its toughness, clearly, he was unfamiliar with the Rokushiki techniques. The moment he used a stronger kick, Blueno's Tekkai was nearly broken.

Furthermore, Sanji didn't put all that much damage to Jyabura with normal, singular kicks, and he was completely serious when facing him.





So I guess, concession accepted? Though that's irrelevant since you didn't really prove all that much.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> you didn't really prove all that much.



I proved you wrong. You're just making excuses now with the "not serious and mindset"  BS. But I can't argue with willful ignorance.

That's all from me. I won't post on this thread unless someone comes up with a valid argument.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

You said that Sanji got far stronger from the time he fought Blueno to the time he fought Jyabura. I wrote an entire post proving you wrong. 



> Okay, I took some time to reread the chapters, and there's absolutely nothing inconsistent there, as Sanji obviously didn't go all-out.
> 
> He was in a regular mindset and kicked Blueno once with a casual kick - he was surprised by its toughness, clearly, he was unfamiliar with the Rokushiki techniques. The moment he used a stronger kick, Blueno's Tekkai was nearly broken.
> 
> ...



And you cop out saying I don't have a decent argument? Pretty funny.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Seriously



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Was there a statement for Sanji not doubting Robin? If so, post the panel and I'll concede.



And then



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> The only thing you proved is that Sanji had no doubt



And then I'm like  

But anyway here is what you presented..



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> The moment he used a stronger kick, Blueno's Tekkai was nearly broken.



His strong kick barely phases blueno. And then Jyabura who is *more than twice* as strong is being thrown around like a ragdoll.

In both cases, sanji is trying to save robin(same mindset). In the fight with Jyabura he should be more exhausted. But he still trashes Jyabura.

So yes I do believe you don't have a valid argument anymore. You are just beat around the bush now.


----------



## Rob (Sep 11, 2013)

What's everyone arguing about 

Lucci stomps hard 

Lucci probably > Jozu


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

Yep. And I did concede. That Sanji didn't have doubt. But what does that prove in the long run?



> His strong kick barely phases blueno. And then Jyabura who is more than twice as strong is being thrown around like a ragdoll.



. And Sanji had no knowledge on Rokushiki techniques at the time. The moment he used a stronger kick, Blueno looked like he was about to . 

Jyabura was capable of flat out. As the fight goes on, Sanji uses several named techniques, and Jyabura still manages to block a kick from him 

The emphasis you put on Blueno not dying from a casual kick is unjustified.

And even that, you have to take into accout how Sanji didn't go all-out against Blueno on that train due to plot purposes. Your points are overall just moot.

---

Anyway, I'm really fucking tired now, so I might as well go to sleep.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

That's the good old OBD for you.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Samazuki said:
			
		

> Blueno looked like he was about to pass out.



 You're right. You better go to sleep. Because I don't think you're seeing things properly.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> One unnamed kick.



He used Concasse.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Jyabura was capable of flat out blocking Sanji's kicking and sending him flying.. As the fight goes on, Sanji uses several named techniques, and Jyabura still manages to block a kick from him again.



Seeing as the difference between Jyabura and blueno, And then how sanji beat Jyabura. Sanji should have taken care of blueno. But his named attack barely scratched him.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> due to plot purposes.



Weren't you the "logical explanation" guy? Just shows how much desperate you've become.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> so I might as well go to sleep



Agreed. That's definitely the course of action you should take right now.


----------



## RF (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm seriously tired here, and you've wasted a lot of my time already. Someone who can't form actual arguments and resorts to shitty ad hominems isn't worth half the time that I've already given you. Oh well.....



> You're right. You better go to sleep. Because I don't think you're seeing things properly.



Take a look at his facial expression - specifically his eyes. That's the way Oda draws the characters when they're about to pass out.  He didn't shrug off that attack. He was visibly nervous after Kaku got mad at him. Stop overexaggerating.



> He used Concasse.



And Blueno was visibly shaken. 



> Seeing as the difference between Jyabura and blueno, And then how sanji beat Jyabura. Sanji should have taken care of blueno. But his named attack barely scratched him.



Jyabura was capable of shrugging off several kicks from Sanji that were far more powerful than Concasse. Blueno not dying after one kick is not unfathomable. 



> Weren't you the "logical explanation" guy? Just shows how much desperate you've become.



Desperate? How the fuck am I desperate? Oda always overeclipses any hype he gives to any character before they fall. That's the way he writes his story, is that my fault. Sanji didn't go all-out on that train, there's no indication whatsoever that he did, and from the way Oda writes his story, there's no reason to believe that he did.

You're a fucking joke.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> I'm seriously tired here



Guess what? No one cares



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> you've wasted a lot of my time already.



You're wasting your own time. No one else is. Like you were doing something better by being on the OL.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Take a look at his facial expression - specifically his eyes



My reply to this is 
*Spoiler*: __ 





> Stop overexaggerating








			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> And Blueno was visibly shaken.



Wasn't anything serious.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> You're a fucking joke.



I can see the desperation.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Someone who can't form actual arguments and resorts to shitty ad hominems isn't worth half the time that I've already given you



Says the guy who

1. Went back on his word.
2. Has no valid argument.

Yes I'm not worth your "precious time" anymore. Because you don't have any valid arguments anyway.


----------



## Rob (Sep 11, 2013)

Sakazuki vs. Luffy

The long awaited battle.


----------



## Slenderman (Sep 11, 2013)

Luffee Sakazuki san is a very busy man running the navy is not easy. You better not piss him off any further or he'll fist you.


----------



## Orca (Sep 11, 2013)

I think I'm not ready for this battle. I need another timeskip.


----------



## RF (Sep 12, 2013)

> My reply to this is



You said that Blueno wasn't fazed by the attack. I gave you proof on the contrary. What now?



> Wasn't anything serious.



Yes it was. 



> I can see the desperation.



Just playing your game. Attacking the person and not the actual argument is what you do best afterall. 



> 1. Went back on his word.



At what point? Just because you proved me wrong on one instance doesn't mean that you won the entire fucking debate. 



> 2. Has no valid argument.



Actually, I do. The last 3 posts have been full of arguments. Instead, you choose to ignore them and nitpick on side remarks I made so you can make fun of me. It's clear here who's the one with no argument.


----------



## Orca (Sep 12, 2013)

Sakazuki said:
			
		

> You said that Blueno wasn't fazed by the attack. I gave you proof on the contrary. What now?



I said he was barely fazed. I didn't say not fazed at all.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Yes it was



No it wasn't. It only changed his face expression. Even one of the other cp9 members mentioned how sanji "almost" did some damage. That wasn't anything serious provided what sanji was able to do to Jyabura.



			
				Sakazuki said:
			
		

> Just playing your game. Attacking the person and not the actual argument is what you do best afterall.



I take back all the extraneous things I said.


----------



## RF (Sep 12, 2013)

Regardless, it was still a casual kick, and Blueno did feel the attack. I don't see why there's a problem with this when Jyabura could just as easily block far more powerful kicks from a serious Sanji. 



> I take back all the extraneous things I said.



Same here.


----------



## Shin Gouki (Sep 12, 2013)

I've never imagined a jaguar beating a crocodile until now.


----------



## Mangeykou Byakugan (Sep 12, 2013)

Croc in both scenarios, high diff


----------

