# SM Naruto vs. MS Itachi



## StickaStick (Jun 6, 2014)

vs.



This is Pain-Arc SM Naruto vs. the Itachi that fought Sasuke in the Uchiha hideout. Assume Itachi is in good health here. Naruto starts in SM w/ Ma and Pa. 

*Location*: Kimi vs. Lee
*Starting Distance*: 25m
*SoM*: Intent to Kill; IC
*Knowledge*: Full
*Restrictions*: Izanami; Izanagi; Magen Gama Rinshō

*Scenario 2*: Magen Gama Rinshō is unrestricted.


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## Trojan (Jun 6, 2014)

Naruto wins. There is nothing itachi can do here.
his susanoo is useless against Frog Call, the other attacks are useless against Naruto's sensing ability,
and his clones will make itachi's genjutsu useless....etc 

Naruto as a sage is portrayed to be stronger than itachi, and thus, fighting a stronger opponent.

Now, if Naruto is only going to talk about Sasuke with him, and not fighting seriously, then he might lose.


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## Bonly (Jun 6, 2014)

Naruto in Sage Mode has sensing abilities. When he first got to the leaf, he was able to feel everyone's chakra in the leaf. Naruto will be able to find Itachi at all times as well as know when a clone has popped up so he won't blindsided by Itachi while in SM. 

When it comes to CQC Naruto can use Frog Kata so even if Naruto miss a hit, Itachi will still get hit and with how good his reactions are  Naruto could likely dodge most of Itachi's attacks. Though with full knowledge Itachi would be smart enough to either keep up Susanoo(which would waste chakra from him) or stay out of CQC range and if Ma+Pa stay on his scroll then they could also use Kawazu Naki to stop Itachi for a few seconds. 


Naruto can dodge all of Itachi's Katon's and all of Itachi's Suitons should be dodge/tank as well. Naruto already knows that Itachi can use genjutsu from his eyes, a finger, and with his crows from the manga but full knowledge makes up for what he didn't know about. Every time Naruto learned about a new way that Itachi can use genjutsu, he adjusted well to it and only got caught by one he didn't know. Naruto should be able to avoid getting caught in a genjutsu but if Naruto somehow gets trapped in a genjutsu then he can have Ma and/ or Pa break him out of it via partner method. Naruto with his ability to sense Itachi at all times should be able to deal with anything Itachi can deal out with his base arsenal.

Now comes to the MS. As said before Naruto knows to not look into Itachi eyes and has was around doing so, so unless Itachi forces Naruto to look into his eye(like he made an Kakashi clone) then Tsukuyomi is likely to not land on Naruto and with Naruto having the advantage in CQC, Tsukuyomi is pretty much a non factor here due to his range but if Itachi did manage to land it he'd be screwed. Nagato was able to sense Ama right before it was used and with Naruto's sensing skills he too should be able to sense the build up of chakra and get ready to dodge it. Naruto can dodge it until he gets ready to use make a smoke screen either by using Rasengans,smoke bombs or Ma's jutsu(or he can just do that when he feels Itachi gaining the pressure) to avoid getting hit or Naruto can start making a clone to take the hit, similar to how Naruto made a crapload of clones take on Deva's paths ST. Itachi could get a lucky hit in if Naruto isn't quick on the draw but I see it a has 50/50 shot.

Naruto should be able to get past version V3 and lower of Susanoo with his FRS which can expand or take it out with this. The problem would be Itachi's full Susanoo. A FRS wouldn't take it out due to the Yata Mirror which would just turn into a Katon to make it useless(via ) unless Naruto managed to get a hit in from the back. Nothing that Naruto has would be able to get through besides maybe FCD but the problem is that Itachi's Susanoo has no durability feats which means its up in the air on whether one thinks it can or can not break it. Also Itachi can use his sword pretty fast, he was able to make short work of Orochi's Yamata heads pretty quickly as well as hit Orochi mid sentence without him being able to dodge it. Although he didn't know it was the The Sword of Totsuka and thought that it didn't need to be dodged. Same with Nagato but being controlled, not actively trying to avoid it. So not really sure if Itachi could stab Naruto with it. Though with Ma+Pa around they have Kawazu Naki which could still get through Susanoo and stop Itachi for a little bit allowing Naruto to get a free hit in.

The problem here is that Naruto doesn't have long in SM. He is capped at 5 minutes or two FRS during the pain arc and the problem is that with Susanoo and Ama, a base Naruto would be screwed more times then not as Itachi could take him out quickly if he wants.

Both are good and can take each other out but with Naruto having the ability to deal with most(if not all) Itachi can dish out until his full Susanoo comes out(upon which Naruto could take Itachi out before that comes into play) as well as Itachi having a some one shot moves in the MS which he might be able to land, has me 50/50 on this.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 7, 2014)

He throws a Rasenshuriken or two with clones and they break Susanoo and kill Itachi, Yata Mirror might defend against them but all Naruto has to do is attack from behind


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## LeBoyka (Jun 7, 2014)

*Naruto Mid-Difficulty *

* Toad Summons handle Susano quite easily; they also negate genjutsu and win the long-range fight (SM Naruto was able to summon three toads; GG). 
The Toads can also serve as a distraction fr a good setup attack by Naruto. 

* SM Rasen-Shuriken should be able to penetrate Susano - especially since it'll be infused with Sage Chakra.

* SM sensing allows Naruto to _easily_ dodge Amaterasu.

* With enough Shadow Clones, Naruto will catch Itachi off-guard just as he did to Pein (who had shared vision.).

I honestly don't see Itachi fairing well; no doubt it'll be a good fight, but SM Naruto is beast.


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## ARGUS (Jun 7, 2014)

Naruto wins this high/extreme diff

-He has the sensing abilities and SM reflexes to sense Amaterasu well before the onslaught and can either block its LOS or can evade it through his speed,,,,,

-With full intel he would know how to fight itachi,,, and through his SM he can overwhelm Itachi at CQC through Frog Katas,,

-He can bust through most of itachis susanoo variants by using FRS,,, or a barrage of rasengans,,,,not only that but naruto having all intel and knowing that itachi cant use his MS techniques to the full extent (due to the sidebacks),,, he would attempt to outlast itachi,,,, and can do so by through the use of diversions and throwing FRS to force itachi into using his Susanoo (V3 at least since all others will be destroyed),,,,, 

-Only hope for itachi is totsuka but seeing that naruto has the adequate sensing abilities,,,and reflexes,, he would be able to dodge the blade,, and prevent himself from getting pierced by it


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## RBL (Jun 7, 2014)

this is not the itachi who fought sasuke, this is healthy itachi, and this is SM naruto from pain arc.

itachi takes this with mid-high diffl.


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## Kyu (Jun 7, 2014)

Sage Naruto will know _Amaterasu_ is coming via sensing the chakra buildup in Itachi's eye. However I'm uncertain if SM is fast enough to dodge. 

_Totsuka Blade_ isn't doing shit other than failing to hit its target. Itachi probably won't even use it if Naruto & his clones are dashing all over the damn place.

Not much Naruto can do offensively to Complete _Susano'o_ wielding _Yata Mirror_, but the elder toad's _Senpō: Kawazu Naki_ may prove to be the most useful asset vs _Susano'o_.

Ma & Pa balances this fight out more. 

Make this Nardo's War Arc Sage Mode and-


Good fuckin' Game


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## Katou (Jun 7, 2014)

RasensurikenGG ::blindit@chi


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## Phoenix Zoro (Jun 7, 2014)

Pain arc Naruto? Itachi high diff.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2014)

Itachi's creates a crowbunshin faster than a perfect sage can percieve, Naruto attacks it, it gets dispersed, crows distract Naruto, Itachi closes in with flash activated susano'o and rips Naruto apart.

Itachi low - mid difficulty.


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## ueharakk (Jun 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's creates a crowbunshin faster than a perfect sage can percieve,


sure, lets forget that Kabuto was distracted by EMS Sasuke and the real edo itachi's combined attack via susanoo.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto attacks it, it gets dispersed, crows distract Naruto, Itachi closes in with flash activated susano'o and rips Naruto apart.


Then that naruto goes poof, and itachi and his flash activated susanoo get vaporized by a FRS from the real naruto.


Itachi, especially a living itachi, isn't bunsin feinting the master of bunshin feints + top tier sensing, not when KCM Naruto treats Itachi's attempts at bunshin feints like a joke.  

Itachi's clones get manhandled by naruto's clones, itachi only wins by waiting out sennin mode and trying to totsuka blitz the real naruto once he's in base.  Other than that, his lower levels of susanoo gets him killed via double SM FRS, and he's not hitting sennin mode naruto if he has a living body that feels the negative effects of the MS, Naruto's going to fight susanoo at long range, SM Naruto's reactions, and the fact that ma and pa can just put up dust cloud which makes amaterasu and tsukuyomi practically useless.  

This fight goes either way, Itachi has a high chance of winning during the intervals that naruto's in base, Naruto has the advantage while he's in sennin mode.


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 7, 2014)

Healthy Itachi essentially blitzed Killer Bee, and held his own against KCM Naruto + Base Killer Bee with nothing but a kunai.

No real logical way you can debate Itachi losing here, his speed alone allows him to avoid virtually all of Naruto's attacks.

Aside from that, Naruto is not dodging Amaterasu, especially from the eyes of someone who can shunshin at the speed to step behind Killer Bee without an initial reaction from 10m+

How could he possibly avoid the flames if he can barely keep up with Itachi's own speed?

The start distance solidifies it- Itachi can kill Naruto in under a minute with this distance (25m), he won't even be able to get far enough to prep an FRS.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 7, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> sure, lets forget that Kabuto was distracted by EMS Sasuke and the real edo itachi's combined attack via susanoo.



Which Itachi can easily replicate, as we've seen 4 magatamas are enough to overload sage sensing.



> Then that naruto goes poof, and itachi and his flash activated susanoo get vaporized by a FRS from the real naruto.



So Naruto can create a bunshin faster than the faster guy who also has faster handseal speed ?
Nope.avi



> Itachi, especially a living itachi, isn't bunsin feinting the master of bunshin feints + top tier sensing, not when KCM Naruto treats Itachi's attempts at bunshin feints like a joke.



Itachi already bunshin feinted a top tier sensor, so no, Naruto will eat the bunshin feint to the face.



> Itachi's clones get manhandled by naruto's clones, itachi only wins by waiting out sennin mode



Itachi doesn't need to go into a clone war with Naruto. Once Itachi manifests Susano'O, Naruto needs to run, the hell away. Location prevents that, Itachi is faster, so he catches him and breaks him in half with a karate chop.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2014)

> =DaVizWiz;50882358]Healthy Itachi essentially blitzed Killer Bee, and held his own against KCM Naruto + Base Killer Bee with nothing but a kunai.


B who countered him, and Naruto who was only talking to him? 


> No real logical way you can debate Itachi losing here, his speed alone allows him to avoid virtually all of Naruto's attacks.


and he will get hit by the natural energy just like Preta Path. 





> Aside from that, Naruto is not dodging Amaterasu, especially from the eyes of someone who can shun shin at the speed to step behind Killer Bee without an initial reaction from 10m+


Except B is not a sensor like Naruto. 


> How could he possibly avoid the flames if he can barely keep up with Itachi's own speed?


Clones, sensing, his own speed, smoke bombs...etc 
Naruto was stated to be stronger than Sasuke who so happened to have Amatersu, so there is nothing suggest that itachi's Amatersu is so special more than Sasuke's. 


> The start distance solidifies it- Itachi can kill Naruto in under a minute with this distance (25m), he won't even be able to get far enough to prep an FRS.


under a minute.  
yeah, cool story,,, 

#thewankisreal.


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## Itachі (Jun 7, 2014)

Tsukuyomi would take Naruto out and Itachi's too fast for FRS to hit him. I can't see Naruto lasting in this. Even if he did manage to stay alive for five minutes his SM would wear off and he would be stomped in base. Frog Song could take Itachi out but it needs time and it's restricted anyway.


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## Trojan (Jun 7, 2014)

Ｉｔａｃｈｉ said:


> Tsukuyomi would take Naruto out and Itachi's too fast for FRS to hit him. I can't see Naruto lasting in this. Even if he did manage to stay alive for five minutes his SM would wear off and he would be stomped in base. Frog Song could take Itachi out but it needs time and it's restricted anyway.



a Kunai would take itachi out as well. 
and itachi is the one who's probably won't last for 5 minutes actually with his poor chakra.


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## ueharakk (Jun 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which Itachi can easily replicate, as we've seen 4 magatamas are enough to overload sage sensing.


4 magatamas + splitting your focus between edo itachi and EMS Sasuke + susanoo arrow = able to make a crow bunshin without kabuto knowing.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> So Naruto can create a bunshin faster than the faster guy who also has faster handseal speed ?
> Nope.avi


Why does naruto have to have a faster handseal speed in order to pull off a bunshin feint?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi already bunshin feinted a top tier sensor, so no, Naruto will eat the bunshin feint to the face.


Again, that never happens if that top tier sensor doesn't have his focus split between itachi and susanoo arrow-blasting EMS Sasuke.  Plus, Naruto usually fights with clones and knowledge is full so they'd be the ones popping itachi's crow bunshins, not the real naruto.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi doesn't need to go into a clone war with Naruto. Once Itachi manifests Susano'O, Naruto needs to run, the hell away. Location prevents that, Itachi is faster, so he catches him and breaks him in half with a karate chop.


Since when is Itachi faster than SM Naruto?  Since when is an itachi who's under the physical strain of using MS techniques faster than SM Naruto?  How does itachi's susanoo catch SM Naruto when EMS Sasuke's susanoo can't even catch a distracted SM KAbuto despite having his entire hand around him?    or MS Sasuke's inability to grab danzou *despite being right next to the guy?
* 

How is itachi going to be doing any of that when the entire arena is filled with dust cloud?  What feat would allow itachi's susanoo to restrain SM Naruto let alone break him in half with a karate chop?  Why doesn't naruto simply use kagebunshin if he's being chased by itachi?  Why doesn't naruto simply end itachi and his susanoo with FRS, or blow both of them back with a rasengan variant?


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## LeBoyka (Jun 8, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Healthy Itachi essentially blitzed Killer Bee, and held his own against KCM Naruto + Base Killer Bee with nothing but a kunai.
> 
> No real logical way you can debate Itachi losing here, his speed alone allows him to avoid virtually all of Naruto's attacks.
> 
> ...



LMAO

_Taking feats out of context_, as usual by Itachi fans. 

1.) If you actually go back to the fight between Edo Itachi and KCM Naruto, you could clearly see that Naruto had no real intention to outright destroy Itachi. Hell, they spent the first half of the fight talking about Sasuke. Secondly, after things got serious (when Kabuto upped the edo tensi control) Itachi switched targets and went for Bee - for the obvious reason that Naruto was out of his league. _Instead, Nagato was used to assault Naruto_. 

2.) Did you miss what happened after Itachi was able to blitz Bee? Bee kept up with him,_ rather easily_. You could say, Bee was caught off-guard - but he definitely had the ability to keep up with Itachi (_To the point where Itachi retreated unto Nagato's Summon._) But you make it sound like Itachi is the fastest Mofo in the manga. Go home, and stop wanking Itachi. I could post the damn fight for ya, from youtube. 

3.) _SM Naruto dodged and countered the 3rd Raikage_ - he should easily dodge Amaterasu, especially since he'll sense it coming before it actually does arrive. Also, if he dodged the 3rd Raikage - who is faster than Itachi - the whole argument that Itachi is faster than SM Naruto is rather moot. 

_Your argument is invalid and straight up stupid. _

SM Naruto wins via Shadow Clone spam, Toad Summons, and FRS from multiple angles. Itachi cannot land Amaterasu, he cannot land genjutsu, in CQC he loses to SM physical prowess and Frog Kata, he loses Long-Range to Toad Summons, and Susanoo will not protect him from Toad + Clone + FRS Assault coming from several angles; especially since once the Toads come out to play, Itachi will have no choice but to camp in his Susanoo. GG. (It's still a good fight, but Naruto will win this.)


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## DaVizWiz (Jun 8, 2014)

> B who countered him, and Naruto who was only talking to him?


Bee countered him because he chose to prep a Ninjutsu after blitzing behind him, instead of stabbing him in the head with a kunai, or grappling him with a Susano arm.



> and he will get hit by the natural energy just like Preta Path.
> Except B is not a sensor like Naruto.


SM Naruto is slower than Itachi, and Bee. 



> Clones, sensing, his own speed, smoke bombs...etc
> Naruto was stated to be stronger than Sasuke who so happened to have Amatersu, so there is nothing suggest that itachi's Amatersu is so special more than Sasuke's.


5 clones and smoke bombs aren't stopping Healthy Itachi, especially with this start distance. Itachi can appear behind him in like 2 seconds. 



> under a minute.
> yeah, cool story,,,
> 
> #thewankisreal.


The last person I'd wank is Itachi. Bottom line is he's healthy here, the start distance is too small (25m), and Naruto does not start with summons out. He's at a massive disadvantage, he'll even have problems simply avoiding Amaterasu outright. 

I can't give it to Naruto, I'm not even convinced he could avoid Amaterasu, let alone Itachi's speed with his V2-V3 Susano bulling at him from a start distance that is literally half the size of his Totsuka Blade alone [1].

If it were 100m start distance and Naruto started on Gamabunta, he'd have a good chance of beating Itachi.


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## Ersa (Jun 8, 2014)

Healthy Itachi losing to Pain Arc SM Naruto. Not seeing it to be honest, I'd already favour Sick to beat Pain Arc SM Naruto and healthy should comfortably trump him. He doesn't have the reserves to use many clones and Amaterasu will end him quickly while Susanoo protects him from anything Naruto can dish out.

War Arc SM Naruto w/ Ma and Pa could do it but not this version who was stated to be clearly inferior to weakened KCM Naruto whom Edo Itachi greatly outperformed.


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## ueharakk (Jun 8, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Healthy Itachi losing to Pain Arc SM Naruto. Not seeing it to be honest, I'd already favour Sick to beat Pain Arc SM Naruto and healthy should comfortably trump him. He doesn't have the reserves to use many clones and Amaterasu will end him quickly while Susanoo protects him from anything Naruto can dish out.


Naruto has the reserves to use tons of clones, how else did he make the *small clone army *disguised as rocks and still have enough sennin mode chakra to use 2 FRS?

Amaterasu isn't even an option with ma and pa able to completely obscure the entire battlefield with dust cloud.  Even if they weren't there, naruto smoke bombs, detonates a rasengan variant, or blocks it with a clone.  Then you have to factor in how itachi physically weakens after using that jutsu.

V4 susanoo is the only thing protecting itachi from FRS anything lower gets vaporized, and as long as he's in it, he's not using amaterasu and his body and chakra reserves constantly weaken.




Ersatz said:


> War Arc SM Naruto w/ Ma and Pa could do it but not this version who was stated to be clearly inferior to weakened KCM Naruto whom Edo Itachi greatly outperformed.



Edo itachi is on a whole different level than a healthy living itachi, that's what unlimited chakra, immunity to the negative affects of the MS, and regeneration that puts byakugou to shame does for him, and even then he didn't greatly outperform that weakened KCM Naruto considering everything he accomplished was only made possible by Nagato focusing his offense on Naruto and not itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 8, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> 4 magatamas + splitting your focus between edo itachi and EMS Sasuke + susanoo arrow = able to make a crow bunshin without kabuto knowing.


I was actually referring to the arrow landing on Kabuto because of the 4 magatamas. The arrow which he casually dodged a minute ago. 



> Why does naruto have to have a faster handseal speed in order to pull off a bunshin feint?


Based on what you said, the Naruto that disperses Itachi's clone is a clone and real Naruto comes from somewhere out of Itachi's vision. I assumed he'd have to prepare the feint before Itachi to be able to pull that off.



> Again, that never happens if that top tier sensor doesn't have his focus split between itachi and susanoo arrow-blasting EMS Sasuke.  Plus, Naruto usually fights with clones and knowledge is full so they'd be the ones popping itachi's crow bunshins, not the real naruto.


Why are we granting Kabuto's evasiveness to Naruto ? If we can do so, can we grant Naruto's strength to Kabuto as well ? 

Besides like I already mentioned above, the 4 magatama distraction was enough that Kabuto couldn't dodge an attack he normally could.
And Itachi can overload Naruto's sage sensing with a katon + projectile weapons or other stuff. 




> Since when is Itachi faster than SM Naruto?


  Since always ? 
You don't think that ?



> Since when is an itachi who's under the physical strain of using MS techniques faster than SM Naruto?


Unless he is terribly sick and blows his Tsukiyomi and couple of Amaterasu, he won't be feeling the strain. I don't think Naruto can live that long. 



> How does itachi's susanoo catch SM Naruto when EMS Sasuke's susanoo can't even catch a distracted SM KAbuto despite having his entire hand around him?


Itachi @ that time was faster than Sasuke. And I am not sure if Naruto is as fast as SM Kabuto, but granted he is, Naruto wouldn't be able to dodge that because he can't manuever in mid-air. Kabuto somehow did, probably he propelled himself with his dicksnake or something I don't know.



> or MS Sasuke's inability to grab danzou *despite being right next to the guy?
> *


Was Sasuke  trying to grab the guy ? He was forming Susano'o out of nothing, so Danzo instinctively leaped away when he saw the formation.
Also Sasuke @the time was alot weaker than Itachi. That Sasuke was equal to Naruto.



> How is itachi going to be doing any of that when the entire arena is filled with dust cloud?


Dust clouds are Itachi's friend though 



> What feat would allow itachi's susanoo to restrain SM Naruto let alone break him in half with a karate chop?


Itachi's karatechop ripping Nagato's arms which were strong enough to restrain Kirabi are enough evidence for me. 
Naruto's durability isn't that great anyways. 
But if you think Naruto can survive the Karatechop that took Nagato's limbs, I'll need evidence.



> Why doesn't naruto simply use kagebunshin if he's being chased by itachi?  Why doesn't naruto simply end itachi and his susanoo with FRS, or blow both of them back with a rasengan variant?


Itachi can block a FRS easily, and rasengan won't be able to push it back. Itachi's susano'o stopped the charge of Yamata no Orochi with 1 hand and he didn't budge 1 inch. *despite being right next to the guy?
*

Itachi also doesn't need to be @ 0 proximity to Naruto to be able to mow him down. You can see  the extend of Totsuka's reach on the scan above. It is almost like a ranged technique.
Itachi distracts Naruto and blitzes with Totsuka.



ueharakk said:


> d even then he didn't greatly outperform that weakened KCM Naruto considering everything he accomplished was only made possible by Nagato focusing his offense on Naruto and not itachi.



How didn't he outperform KCM NAruto lol ? KCM Naruto was helpless against Nagato's summons, he was helpless against Nagato himself. Itachi 2 paneled all of those.


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## Garcher (Jun 8, 2014)

Itachi wins, the gap in intelligence is too big and can't be closed through sheer force


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## ueharakk (Jun 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I was actually referring to the arrow landing on Kabuto because of the 4 magatamas. The arrow which he casually dodged a minute ago.


sure, if itachi can follow up a quad magatama immediately with something as fast as the arrow, he can tag naruto with it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Based on what you said, the Naruto that disperses Itachi's clone is a clone and real Naruto comes from somewhere out of Itachi's vision. I assumed he'd have to prepare the feint before Itachi to be able to pull that off.


yep.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why are we granting Kabuto's evasiveness to Naruto ? If we can do so, can we grant Naruto's strength to Kabuto as well ?


Because Naruto actually has the feats which put his evasiveness on Kabuto's level.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Besides like I already mentioned above, the 4 magatama distraction was enough that Kabuto couldn't dodge an attack he normally could.
> And Itachi can overload Naruto's sage sensing with a katon + projectile weapons or other stuff.


Itachi can overload Naruto's sage sensing to the point where if he fires the equivalent of 4 magatamas, he can hit naruto with something as fast as a susanoo arrow.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since always ?
> You don't think that ?


of course not, what leads you to believe that?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Unless he is terribly sick and blows his Tsukiyomi and couple of Amaterasu, he won't be feeling the strain. I don't think Naruto can live that long.


What is that based on?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi @ that time was faster than Sasuke. And I am not sure if Naruto is as fast as SM Kabuto, but granted he is, Naruto wouldn't be able to dodge that because he can't manuever in mid-air. Kabuto somehow did, probably he propelled himself with his dicksnake or something I don't know.


Kabuto jumped off of the ground, you can clearly see the jump fx where he pushes off of the ground.  Not only that but naruto can maneuver in the air, he does it via clones.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Was Sasuke  trying to grab the guy ? He was forming Susano'o out of nothing, so Danzo instinctively leaped away when he saw the formation.
> Also Sasuke @the time was alot weaker than Itachi. That Sasuke was equal to Naruto.


If Sasuke wasn't trying to grab him, what was he trying to do?  Are you saying that despite having an opportunity to kill danzou, he just decided to let him go and then try to kill him immediately after?  Why was danzou's arm cut if sasuke didn't try to attack him with susanoo?  
While sasuke @ that time might be significantly weaker than itachi as a whole, his susanoo at that level isn't different than itachi's susanoo at that level, so why would itachi's do any better?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dust clouds are Itachi's friend though


you mean tiny dust cloud + sensor on his team + an opponent who has mobility issues + .  If pain and even rinnegan madara can't see through the dust cloud/hidden mist, how is itachi going to be able to see through it?  Answer: he doesn't.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's karatechop ripping Nagato's arms which were strong enough to restrain Kirabi are enough evidence for me.
> *Naruto's durability isn't that great anyways. *
> 
> But if you think Naruto can survive the Karatechop that took Nagato's limbs, I'll need evidence.


Asura received heavy damage from chouza's giant arm punch, which is an attack that base bee would just shrug off, and neither asura or base bee are on the same level as SM Naruto in strength or durability.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi can block a FRS easily, and rasengan won't be able to push it back. Itachi's susano'o stopped the charge of Yamata no Orochi with 1 hand and he didn't budge 1 inch. *despite being right next to the guy?
> *


Based on what does itachi's Susanoo block a FRS easily?  Yamata no orochi's charge forced his shield all the way back to susanoo's body and the charge has  no where near the power of a mountain hollowing attack.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi also doesn't need to be @ 0 proximity to Naruto to be able to mow him down. You can see  the extend of Totsuka's reach on the scan above. It is almost like a ranged technique.
> *Itachi distracts Naruto and blitzes with Totsuka.*


How does itachi do that?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> How didn't he outperform KCM NAruto lol ? KCM Naruto was helpless against Nagato's summons, he was helpless against Nagato himself. Itachi 2 paneled all of those.


[/QUOTE]
Other than cereberus, all of that was literally because nagato was focusing his offense on Naruto, and not itachi.  Itachi lights up cereberus and the bird because nagato doesn't even perceive him as an enemy.  Itachi blind the chameleon and naraka? Because the chameleon turned visible and nagato's entire focus was on soul ripping Naruto and gunning bee.  Switch the roles and have nagato go after itachi first rather than Naruto and naruto does the saving while itachi gets schooled.


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## Fox91 (Jun 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> and itachi is the one who's probably won't last for 5 minutes actually with his poor chakra.



Let's recap what happened when he fought Sasuke:

Used genjutsu more than once, right at the beggining, being Tsukuyomi the last genjutsu before the fight.
Summon Shuriken
Clones
Crow Genjutsu
Fireball Jutsu twice
Amaterasu, also twice, for a considerable time.
Susano'o
"Full" Susano'o
Seals Orochimaru with Sword of Totsuka
Pre-Activates Amaterasu into Sasuke's eyes.

All of this, while being sick. Now, go figure his Stamina being healthy.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 9, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> sure, if itachi can follow up a quad magatama immediately with something as fast as the arrow, he can tag naruto with it.


Or create a bunshin in the midst of it.



> yep.


That doesn't fly because Itachi has faster handseal speed, if anything he'll pull a bunshin feint faster.



> Because Naruto actually has the feats which put his evasiveness on Kabuto's level.


What exactly ? When did he dodge anything as fast as Susano'o or its arrow ?



> Itachi can overload Naruto's sage sensing to the point where if he fires the equivalent of 4 magatamas, he can hit naruto with something as fast as a susanoo arrow.


Yeah, like Totsuka 



> of course not, what leads you to believe that?


Feats ? Itachi has comparable speed to KCM Naruto can casually dance around B and is more reflexive than Sasuke. Naruto's best speed feat in SM is dodging Raikage(an attack he prepared for and saw coming from miles away) and landing a counter hit which Sasuke was able to replicate.



> What is that based on?


Because Itachi started feeling the strain after Sasuke broke his Tsukiyomi and his condition got worse after his 2nd Amaterasu.



> Kabuto jumped off of the ground, you can clearly see the jump fx where he pushes off of the ground.  Not only that but naruto can maneuver in the air, he does it via clones.


Kabuto was already in the air, how did he jump ?



> If Sasuke wasn't trying to grab him, what was he trying to do?  Are you saying that despite having an opportunity to kill danzou, he just decided to let him go and then try to kill him immediately after?  Why was danzou's arm cut if sasuke didn't try to attack him with susanoo?


I am not sure, the wound on Danzo's arm suggests Sasuke tried to attack him, its just that his Susano'o isn't positioned like that. But anyways, Danzo has seen the formation, it was an obvious attack. There are many other occasions where Danzo failed to dodge Susano'O. Its not something he can consistently do apparently.



> While sasuke @ that time might be significantly weaker than itachi as a whole, his susanoo at that level isn't different than itachi's susanoo at that level, so why would itachi's do any better?



Because Itachi has actually better control over his Susano'o(that instance was the first time Sasuke was awakening his stage 3) and is faster reaction-wise ? 



> you mean tiny dust cloud + sensor on his team + an opponent who has mobility issues + .  If pain and even rinnegan madara can't see through the dust cloud/hidden mist, how is itachi going to be able to see through it?  Answer: he doesn't.


Are you saying that Naruto was guiding Itachi's totsuka ? 
Evidence ? 

Who was guiding blind Itachi's totsuka here ?  _punches_

Itachi is a guy who can pull these off without the aid of his sight  : _punches_
_punches_
_punches_
_punches_

IF you think vision impairement allows Naruto to defeat Itachi, then you might be underestimating Itachi alot.



> Asura received heavy damage from chouza's giant arm punch, which is an attack that base bee would just shrug off, and neither asura or base bee are on the same level as SM Naruto in strength or durability.


What ? Naruto is more durable than base B ? 
Evidence ? 



> Based on what does itachi's Susanoo block a FRS easily?


Based on its durability feats and Yata's hype obviously. I mean, you know my stance on this Susano'o doesn't need yata to block FRS, it can tank it. But with Yata it becomes easier.



> Yamata no orochi's charge forced his shield all the way back to susanoo's body and the charge has  no where near the power of a mountain hollowing attack.


No it didn't, and the mountain hollowing attack has no feats.



> How does itachi do that?


Attack Naruto ? That'd require Naruto to put effort into defending no ? Alternatively, Itachi can attack Naruto with Susano'o, and then hit him with Amaterasu.



> Other than cereberus, all of that was literally because nagato was focusing his offense on Naruto, and not itachi.  Itachi lights up cereberus and the bird because nagato doesn't even perceive him as an enemy.  Itachi blind the chameleon and naraka? Because the chameleon turned visible and nagato's entire focus was on soul ripping Naruto and gunning bee.  Switch the roles and have nagato go after itachi first rather than Naruto and naruto does the saving while itachi gets schooled.



As if Bird or Cerebrus could do anything against Amaterasu had they been aware of what was going on.
KCM Naruto or Nagato couldn't react to Amaterasu, I don't expect those summons to.

KCM Naruto and B weren't able to put up a fight against him and were owned like chuunin levels. I am pretty sure an Itachi bunshin could manage to get owned as good as those 2.


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## ueharakk (Jun 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or create a bunshin in the midst of it.


a bunshin that goes undetected only if he follows his quad magatama up with a susanoo arrow or the equivalent.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> That doesn't fly because Itachi has faster handseal speed, if anything he'll pull a bunshin feint faster.


since when is handseal speed the only factor in one's ability to bunshin feint another?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What exactly ? When did he dodge anything as fast as Susano'o or its arrow ?


*Here.* and that's in a situation where he's running right at the attack and waits for the attack to be inches away from his face before starting his dodge.  The arrow can't even change its course after it's fired, naruto dodges it with ease.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, like Totsuka


Based on what is totsuka as fast as a susanoo arrow?  Based on what can itachi fire off quad magatama and follow up with totsuka right after impact.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Feats ? Itachi has comparable speed to KCM Naruto can casually dance around B and is more reflexive than Sasuke. Naruto's best speed feat in SM is dodging Raikage(an attack he prepared for and saw coming from miles away) and landing a counter hit which Sasuke was able to replicate.




Itachi in no way shape or form has speed comparable to KCM Naruto, if he did he would be manhandling KCM Naruto even worse than Sasuke did to KN0 Naruto at VoTe.  Itachi never danced around Bee, he got behind him while bee's attention was averted by nagato's boss summoning, and was forced to flee when bee's seven swords dance came out.  

It's completely irrelevant if SM NAruto saw sandaime coming as Sandaime will just course correct it unless naruto dodges it at a distance where he can't react.  SM Naruto manhandles deva path in taijutsu to the point where deva can barely even put up a guard or completely fails to do so while people like kakashi aren't capable of doing that.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because Itachi started feeling the strain after Sasuke broke his Tsukiyomi and his condition got worse after his 2nd Amaterasu.


Itachi went down on his knees and became significantly impaired after his tsukiyomi was broken.  Does that mean that the affects only begin to take place after firing a tsukuyomi and 2 amaterasus?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kabuto was already in the air, how did he jump ?


The ground was within his reach, so despite being in the air, he could still jump off of it after extending his legs.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not sure, the wound on Danzo's arm suggests Sasuke tried to attack him, its just that his Susano'o isn't positioned like that. But anyways, Danzo has seen the formation, it was an obvious attack. There are many other occasions where Danzo failed to dodge Susano'O. Its not something he can consistently do apparently.


All the other times, danzou doesn't even care about getting killed due to izanagi.  In the instances where he cancels the jutsu, we see him do things like dodging susanoo and pooping out trees to avoid the arrows.  But anyways if danzou can avoid V2 susanoo at point blank, SM NAruto does it with much less difficulty.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because Itachi has actually better control over his Susano'o(that instance was the first time Sasuke was awakening his stage 3) and is faster reaction-wise ?


What do you mean by 'better control'?  Since when is itachi faster reaction-wise?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Are you saying that Naruto was guiding Itachi's totsuka ?
> Evidence ?


The fact that itachi can't see through the dust cloud, and thus would have no way of knowing where nagato was if his vision is obscured by that.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Who was guiding blind Itachi's totsuka here ?  *Here.*


The heck? Itachi's vision was severely impaired but he wasn't literally blind.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi is a guy who can pull these off without the aid of his sight  : *Here.*
> *Here.*
> *Here.*
> *Here.*


he needed sight for every one of those instances in order to first find out the initial location of all of his targets.  In all of those instances he's up against a target or objective that can't move.  The one where he pops naruto's clones is just standard battle senses that any high level shinobi have, the same kind that allowed minato to take a swing at obito, or *Sasuke to dodge an attack coming from out of his LoS.* *Itachi couldn't even detect a kakashi bunshin popping up from the ground in front of him* how would he detect the location of SM Naruto while completely blind from a dust cloud?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> IF you think vision impairement allows Naruto to defeat Itachi, then you might be underestimating Itachi alot.


Vision impairment that can completely blind the rinnegan and its shared vision allowing naruto to defeat itachi is in no way an underestimation of itachi.  It's the opposite



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What ? Naruto is more durable than base B ?
> Evidence ?


Taking no damage from the same attack that skewered edo itachi.  Evidence that base B is more durable than SM Naruto?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Based on its durability feats and Yata's hype obviously. I mean, you know my stance on this Susano'o doesn't need yata to block FRS, it can tank it. But with Yata it becomes easier.


Oh so V4 susanoo?  sure



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No it didn't, and the mountain hollowing attack has no feats.


If it has no feats, then it's a mountain hollowing attack since that's the description the databook gives it which is a finite limit of power, and we have no evidence that argues otherwise.  And yes it did,* the mirror is pressed right up against susanoo's body when the heads make contact.*

Plus, we've already seen that the far smaller *SM oodama rasengan* is capable of *blasting boss summons* *into the clouds* and Naruto's *senpou Chou oodama rasengan is far larger than one of those.*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Attack Naruto ? That'd require Naruto to put effort into defending no ? Alternatively, Itachi can attack Naruto with Susano'o, and then hit him with Amaterasu.


Naruto just dodges susanoo and blocks amaterasu with one of many defenses against that technique.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> As if Bird or Cerebrus could do anything against Amaterasu had they been aware of what was going on.


they couldn't, but while he's doing that nagato BT and soul rips him gg.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> KCM Naruto and B weren't able to put up a fight against him and were owned like chuunin levels. I am pretty sure an Itachi bunshin could manage to get owned as good as those 2.


I'm pretty sure edo itachi could manage to get owned even worse than those 2.  Itachi's bunshin gets popped by shinra tensei, or just a weak attack from nagato, while the real itachi gets banshou tennined and soul ripped.


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## Veracity (Jun 9, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Healthy Itachi essentially blitzed Killer Bee, and held his own against KCM Naruto + Base Killer Bee with nothing but a kunai.
> 
> No real logical way you can debate Itachi losing here, his speed alone allows him to avoid virtually all of Naruto's attacks.
> 
> ...



Itachi was never ever close to ever blitzing bee. Itachi used Nagato blocking bees LoS to shunshin in, and only managed to get a foot away from him, before bee was able to swing the entirety of heavy ass Samehada, before Itachi could move his arm: *senpou Chou oodama rasengan is far larger than one of those.*

Itachi also never prepped any Justu, as you can see him casting the Katon seals after he dodges bee in the panel. Meaning he casted and prepped that Justu after bees swing. 

SM Naruto also has better reactions then base bee. So there goes your entire Itachi being vastly superior to Naruto in speed theory.


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