# Jafar vs. Z (Tenchi Muyo!)



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

How would this battle go? Jafar is in genie form and the lamp is not present. The battle takes place at Agrabah.

Inb4 Raigen shows up


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

This belongs in JBD.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Since we won against Goku then lets how does against Z. Since he is a genie then should able to wish him or turn him into a fly then smash him like a bug before he use the LHW's.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Z >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

*not done yet*

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some retarded Genie (just to keep things short)


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## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> It looks like Raigen got a new avatar and I like his old one better. I have a feeling that he is going to post something like LHW can beat high reality warping characters.



And I am called childish? This is obviously bait.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Not like it really matters. Genie and Jafar are insignificant next to Z.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> And I am called childish? This is obviously bait.



Yet it seemed that the bait worked !

So Raigen give me an argument against Jafar turning Z into a chicken and teleporting him to the sun before he uses LHW.


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> And I am called childish? This is obviously bait.



You are called childish, Omega. Raigen is called the biggest moron in the OBD currently. And you're posting off-topic anyway.

As for the thread, according to Endless Mike, you would need universal destructive force to kill Z. And the LHWs are backed by the power of beings who are well beyond Jafar.

I'm confident that Z would win this match.



Raigen said:


> Z >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> ...



You mean a genie who is much more well-known than Z? But of course, this is just you Raigen, rambling on like always, and you'll be ignored like always.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>some retarded Genie (just to keep things short)



He is at a high level reality warping, I don't see what Z can do them really? He erase his head alway or turn him into a fish then send him to the sun.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Platinum said:


> Yet it seemed that the bait worked !
> 
> So Raigen give me an argument against Jafar turning Z into a chicken and teleporting him to the sun before he uses LHW.



1. Jafar has never shown to use his power in such ways.
2. LHW are automatic and negate all forces used against them so there's no getting around them or beating them to the punch.
3. Z is 20+something times FTL. Jafar has no speed feats.
4. Z has shown teleporting and matter manipulation on top of obliterating hundreds of thousands of GXP ships in an instant with a wave attack.
5. He blew away a third of the Earth with no effort.
6. Claimed he could restore the Earth and everyone who died (and only if Tenchi would die)

There are more reasons, but you want the big one?

Final: LHW are the power of God and exists beyond the multiverse. Z's draws from the Ultimate Dimension in which the Chousin reside and is practically Tokimi's Avatar. Powers derived from the 3rd dimension (the 3-dimensional universe) are subservient to powers of a higher dimension (ie 4d, 5d, etc. 5D-Imp in DC, reality-warp the universe for fun).

Basically: Jafar can't doe jack to Z even if he just sat there drinking coffee the whole time while watching the House marathon on USA network.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

I'm not really up to arguing in this thread but has Z killed Cosmic immortals before? If not the best you can hope for is a stalemate.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar, when gloating for the blue guy indicated that he could violate logic by making _"2 + 2 = 5"_ while saying _"You have a lot to learn about the genie game."_

- Source

From what I've seen in the OVA no of the feats have come close to altering logic.


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## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> Jafar, when gloating for the blue guy indicated that he could violate logic by making _"2 + 2 = 5"_ while saying _"You have a lot to learn about the genie game."_
> 
> - Source
> 
> From what I've seen in the OVA no of the feats have come close to altering logic.



Any one can make 2+2 = 5. Who decided 1 = 1? Not logic.


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## Deer_Hunter_ (Jul 23, 2009)

^^ Wow the mad guy who takes the internet so serious over me just made this thread his bitch, and that's great!

edit: fuck I was talking about Raigen.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> Jafar, when gloating for the blue guy indicated that he could violate logic by making _"2 + 2 = 5"_ while saying _"You have a lot to learn about the genie game."_
> 
> - Source
> 
> From what I've seen in the OVA no of the feats have come close to altering logic.



Sounds like some 1984 shit.



Omega Level said:


> Any one can make 2+2 = 5. Who decided 1 = 1? Not logic.



Do you know how utterly stupid that sounded ?


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## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Platinum said:


> Sounds like some 1984 shit.
> 
> 
> 
> *Do you know how utterly stupid that sounded *?



Yes I do. Really I do


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Z hits you with a LHW, you are erased from existence. There is no defense aside from another LHW. There is no exception. Logic has nothing to do with it. Mihoshi defies logic and causality on a constant basis. And logic only applies as far as people think it can which only may encompass the 3d universe. This is no stalemate. It's not a fight, it's a joke. Genie Jafar is a joke. He hasn't done anything on a cosmic scale nor even a world-wide scale. Z could simply snap his fingers, make Jafar's lamp appear, and then dissolve it instantly. 

It's just sad that anyone would even consider taking this thread seriously.


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

I am wondering if the LHWs can kill Jafar, considering that he's immortal and regenerated from nothingness.

Nevertheless, the Chousein are beyond Jafar, so he will have no method of harming Z.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> I am wondering if the LHWs can kill Jafar, considering that he's immortal and regenerated from nothingness.
> 
> Nevertheless, the Chousein are beyond Jafar, so he will have no method of harming Z.



Yet if Z can't kill Jafar then it is a stalemate.

I'm going with a stalemate myself since it seems neither can kill the other.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar doesn't even compare to Z. I doubt Z would even notice killing Jafar permanently. Z would see Jafar as we see a cricket. It makes noise but it can't even remotely hurt you.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Any one can make 2+2 = 5. Who decided 1 = 1? Not logic.


You misinterpreted, 1 = 1 is a universal truth and unless you allow miscalculations or use different symbols 2 + 2 ≠ 5.

The idea was obviously that genies could violate logic with their magic. Something which neither the Chousins nor users of the Light Hawk Wings could do.


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## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> You misinterpreted, 1 = 1 is a universal truth and unless you allow miscalculations or use different symbols 2 + 2 ≠ 5.
> 
> The idea was obviously that genies could violate logic with their magic. Something which neither the Chousins nor users of the Light Hawk Wings could do.



Oh so thats what he meant.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> You misinterpreted, 1 = 1 is a universal truth and unless you allow miscalculations or use different symbols 2 + 2 ≠ 5.
> 
> The idea was obviously that genies could violate logic with their magic. Something which neither the Chousins nor users of the Light Hawk Wings could do.



You're kidding, right? Logic is a concept of humans. The Chousin created the Multiverse. Logic is nothing more than a concept, something that only has meaning in the 3-dimensional universe. It means nothing to the Chousin. Do you not know anything here? All information and knowledge in the Universe can't explain or even determine the existence of the Chousin despite being fully capable of detecting and acknowledging extra-dimensional entities.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Omega Level said:


> Oh so thats what he meant.


Some people seem to need everything spoon-fed to them.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Jafar doesn't even compare to Z. I doubt Z would even notice killing Jafar permanently. Z would see Jafar as we see a cricket. It makes noise but it can't even remotely hurt you.



Proof that Z can kill an immortal cosmic being that can regenerate from nothing.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Proof that Jafar can do anything beyond fail to a kid with a fez. You have no evidence nor feats for Jafar. Jafar is not even cosmic. Z outranks D-3, the God/Guardian of the 3d Universe. You need universe-busting force to kill a weakened Z, and that flat out destroys all logic in the process. Gimme a break.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You're kidding, right? Logic is a concept of humans.


Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed to strict principles of validity. Let me rephrase my position then, he showed that he could alter a universal parameter.



Raigen said:


> The Chousin created the Multiverse. Logic is nothing more than a concept, something that only has meaning in the 3-dimensional universe.


Wrong, according to string theory the same maths applies to every universe in the eleven dimensional omniverse--and unlike the technobabble used in Tenchi Muyo! they're not using universes of varying complexity.



Raigen said:


> It means nothing to the Chousin. Do you not know anything here?


As I said, I've seen the 20 episode OVA. Nothing even remotely suggested that they could alter universal parameters. Even the Light Hawk Wing-users couldn't destroy energy but had to change it.



Raigen said:


> All information and knowledge in the Universe can't explain or even determine the existence of the Chousin despite being fully capable of detecting and acknowledging extra-dimensional entities.


Which means nothing at all.



Raigen said:


> Proof that Jafar can do anything beyond fail to a kid with a fez.


A mix of PIS and CIS I believe.



Raigen said:


> You have no evidence nor feats for Jafar. Jafar is not even cosmic.


The evidence has been presented to you.



Raigen said:


> Z outranks D-3, the God/Guardian of the 3d Universe. You need universe-busting force to kill a weakened Z, and that flat out destroys all logic in the process. Gimme a break.


Technically by altering universal parameters you could easily undo universes.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

You're using theory and *logic* to try and disprove that an Omnipotent being, that created the very universe and multiverse in which these things are used and practiced and who exists beyond such concepts and perceptions, can't alter or ignore them completely?


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Proof that Jafar can do anything beyond fail to a kid with a fez. You have no evidence nor feats for Jafar. Jafar is not even cosmic. Z outranks D-3, the God/Guardian of the 3d Universe. You need universe-busting force to kill a weakened Z, and that flat out destroys all logic in the process. Gimme a break.



The evidence has already been presented. So how would Z kill a being that is immortal, cosmic and can regenerate from nothing?


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> You're using theory and *logic* to try and disprove that an Omnipotent being, that created the very universe and multiverse in which these things are used and practiced and who exists beyond such concepts and perceptions, can't alter or ignore them completely?


When your omnipotent being has indicated feats that rival Jafar's "_2 + 2 = 5"_ indication of a feat then I concede in that he wins.


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Z is not a Chousein.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> When your omnipotent being has indicated feats that rival Jafar's "_2 + 2 = 5"_ feat then I concede in that he wins.



The Chousin aren't omnipotent.

That's just Raigen being Raigen .


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Z is omnipotent. Or by OBD, He's semi-Omnipotent. He's not Kami-Tenchi, but you get the point. besides, you have no feats for Jafar's abilities, just off-hand statements. What did Jafar *actually* do? Answer: Nothing. And btw you should see the clip showing Mihoshi's letter to her family, before and after Z altered it (he made it sound like Tenchi was a lecher and that he was molesting and raping Mihoshi).


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## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> When your omnipotent being has indicated feats that rival Jafar's "_2 + 2 = 5"_ indication of a feat then I concede in that he wins.



Did Jafar actually make it happen? He is a very untrustworthy character who is known to be cocky. He could have been lying.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Platinum said:


> The Chousin aren't omnipotent.


I'm not going to open this can again, because as before I'll get a lot of fallacies thrown at me.

Either way, I was referring to Kami.



Omega Level said:


> Did Jafar actually make it happen? He is a very untrustworthy character who is known to be cocky. He could have been lying.


He was preaching to a ex-genie who was aware of his powers.


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## Platinum (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z is omnipotent. Or by OBD, He's semi-Omnipotent. He's not Kami-Tenchi, but you get the point. besides, you have no feats for Jafar's abilities, just off-hand statements. What did Jafar *actually* do? Answer: Nothing. And btw you should see the clip showing Mihoshi's letter to her family, before and after Z altered it (he made it sound like Tenchi was a lecher and that he was molesting and raping Mihoshi).



So Z is omnipotent now. Oh Raigen .


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## mystictrunks (Jul 23, 2009)

Z turns Jafar's powers to Zero. Dude will be pulling rabbits out of hats and counting cards.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> *Z is omnipotent*. Or by OBD, He's semi-Omnipotent. He's not Kami-Tenchi, but you get the point. besides, you have no feats for Jafar's abilities, just off-hand statements. What did Jafar *actually* do? Answer: Nothing. And btw you should see the clip showing Mihoshi's letter to her family, before and after Z altered it (he made it sound like Tenchi was a lecher and that he was molesting and raping Mihoshi).


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

mystictrunks said:


> Z turns Jafar's powers to Zero. Dude will be pulling rabbits out of hats and counting cards.


Z have never turned shit to zero before, unless you count negating other's LHW by sacrificing his own.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Z forcibly passed through Tokimi's hand, a being that transcends the multiverse and whose existence could not even be proven even with infinite universal knowledge. All Jafar ever did was preach and make lighting effects. Z actually has feats under his belt. Not to mention LHW are plot-device. Jafar's Genie magic doesn't even register. Hell, for cripes sake, *Norm the Genie* from the Fairly Oddparents has feats a thousand times better than Jafar's.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z forcibly passed through Tokimi's hand, a being that transcends the multiverse and whose existence could not even be proven even with infinite universal knowledge.


You are aware of that this doesn't mean anything, right?



Raigen said:


> All Jafar ever did was preach and make lighting effects.


But there were some pieces of evidence that indicates that he's far beyond anything in Tenchi Muyo!.



Raigen said:


> Z actually has feats under his belt.


This is true, going solely by feats he would win.



Raigen said:


> Not to mention LHW are plot-device.


The LHW still submit to the law of conservation of energy. Seeing how Jafar could make _2 + 2 = 5_, he'd remove those wings by making something similar such as "5 = 0".


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Even if Jafar loses, stop being stupid Raigen. Jafar was casually warping reality, and Genie spun the Earth like a basketball.

Funny that you didn't try to defend Goku against Jafar if you really think that.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Even if Jafar loses


Reasoning? Or was it a hypothetical scenario?


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> Z have never turned shit to zero before, unless you count negating other's LHW by sacrificing his own.



I recall the whole reduce all attacks to zero was a theory and was never really mention at all.


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## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> You misinterpreted, 1 = 1 is a universal truth and unless you allow miscalculations or use different symbols 2 + 2 ≠ 5.
> 
> The idea was obviously that genies could violate logic with their magic. Something which neither the Chousins nor users of the Light Hawk Wings could do.



You're starting to sound even worse than Raigen, A.

The Choushin can create multiverses.  They created logic.  Genie and Jafar can barely be considered universal in their reach.  

And if you want a comparable feat, Tenchi w/ 3 LHW changed the universal gravitational constant.



Also, did you just claim that Jafar was greater than an omnipotent being ?


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> I recall the whole reduce all attacks to zero was a theory and was never really mention at all.


It was a hypothesis made up by a member, but it's not ecen consistent because Z never reduced energy to zero. The LHW simply changed it to another form of energy which was harmless.



Kage no Yume said:


> You're starting to sound even worse than Raigen, A.


I couldn't care less of my appeal to you.



Kage no Yume said:


> The Choushin can create multiverses.  They created logic.


You never saw the series, now did you? The entire plot revolves around three goddesses trying to find something greater than themselves because of (bad) logic.



Kage no Yume said:


> Genie and Jafar can barely be considered universal in their reach.


Imagine if _2 + 2 = 5_ and how the universe would be affected by it, just hypothetically.



Kage no Yume said:


> And if you want a comparable feat, Tenchi w/ 3 LHW changed the universal gravitational constant.


It's not comparable. It's true that you alter a universal parameter, but not as essential as 2 + 2 = 5.

Lets look at it from a scientific perspective. There are universes, in string theory, where the speed of light and other universal constants (such as G) differs from ours. But not a single one where maths can't be applied or where 2 + 2 = 5.



Kage no Yume said:


> Also, did you just claim that Jafar was greater than an omnipotent being ?


I don't know, do you have any evidence against it?


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

> It was a hypothesis made up by a member, but it's not ecen consistent because Z never reduced energy to zero.



The whole zero idea came from a member on CBR if I'm not mistaken.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Since we won against Goku then lets how does against Z. Since he is a genie then should able to wish him or turn him into a fly then smash him like a bug before he use the LHW's.



LHWs activate automatically as they transcend time.



			
				raigen said:
			
		

> Z outranks D-3, the God/Guardian of the 3d Universe.



I recall no evidence of this.



A said:


> Logic is reasoning conducted or assessed to strict principles of validity. Let me rephrase my position then, he showed that he could alter a universal parameter.



Simply a statement. Not backed up by evidence.



> As I said, I've seen the 20 episode OVA. Nothing even remotely suggested that they could alter universal parameters. Even the Light Hawk Wing-users couldn't destroy energy but had to change it.



The Chousein created the multiverse and set the laws for it at the beginning. Tokimi was altering them in her experiments. Furthermore, LHWs are essentially a hack or programmer's back-door for the universe. They can change the laws of physics locally if they get in the way of the user's goals. See Tenchi changing the gravitational constant of the black hole.



> But there were some pieces of evidence that indicates that he's far beyond anything in Tenchi Muyo!



Only via generous interpretation of a single quote. Whereas the Chousein have actually defied logic by performing infinite calculations in a finite amount of time.



> The LHW still submit to the law of conservation of energy. Seeing how Jafar could make _2 + 2 = 5_, he'd remove those wings by making something similar such as "5 = 0".



If 5 = 0, then (5 - 4) = (0 - 4), therefore 1 = -4, and since there is one Jafar, there would be -4 Jafars. So yeah. I would try to rethink this argument if I were you.



A said:


> It was a hypothesis made up by a member, but it's not ecen consistent because Z never reduced energy to zero. The LHW simply changed it to another form of energy which was harmless.



We saw the Idol mecha's LHWs collapse a pirate spacecraft to nothingness in GXP. Zinv did something similar in Dual.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

> LHWs activate automatically as they transcend time.



Yeah I remember now Z first had them activate automatically. The main question is that can high level reality warping/toon force would able to stop them?


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Simply a statement. Not backed up by evidence.


As I said, it was part of the story. Unless you need everything spoon fed to you, you'd accept it for what it was. A part of the continuity.



Endless Mike said:


> The Chousein created the multiverse and set the laws for it at the beginning.


They were still submitted to logic, like programmers they're able to apply and alter numbers not the nature of numbers. 



Endless Mike said:


> They can change the laws of physics locally if they get in the way of the user's goals. See Tenchi changing the gravitational constant of the black hole.


I've already responded to this, altering a universal constant and violate the fundamental laws of reality are two different things. The latter being much more impressive.



Endless Mike said:


> If 5 = 0, then (5 - 4) = (0 - 4), therefore 1 = -4, and since there is one Jafar, there would be -4 Jafars. So yeah. I would try to rethink this argument if I were you.


It was a hypothetical argument, if he was beyond the effects then it would've worked.



Endless Mike said:


> We saw the Idol mecha's LHWs collapse a pirate spacecraft to nothingness in GXP. Zinv did something similar in Dual.


Is it even canon?


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## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> I couldn't care less of my appeal to you.



It's not your appeal, it's your terrible sense of logic and lack of common sense.



> You never saw the series, now did you? The entire plot revolves around three goddesses trying to find something greater than themselves because of (bad) logic.



You don't seem to realize that being able to manipulate multi-verses is a better feat than being able to partially manipulate a universe.




> Imagine if _2 + 2 = 5_ and how the universe would be affected by it, just hypothetically.
> 
> It's not comparable. It's true that you alter a universal parameter, but not as essential as 2 + 2 = 5.
> 
> Lets look at it from a scientific perspective. There are universes, in string theory, where the speed of light and other universal constants (such as G) differs from ours. But not a single one where maths can't be applied or where 2 + 2 = 5.



Numbers are merely a concept we humans have created in order to quantify the world around us.  

In some forms of math 2 + 2 = 12

At best this puts Jafar between Z and the Choushin, but Jafar would still need power greater than universe busting to merely restrain Z.




> I don't know, do you have any evidence against it?



Since when is anything below omnipotent greater than omnipotent?


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

GXP stated by Masaki Kajishima to be part of the Tenchi multiverse along with the novels also.


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## mystictrunks (Jul 23, 2009)

Dual! is a canon parallel universe .


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Kage no Yume said:


> It's not your appeal, it's your terrible sense of logic and lack of common sense.


Reading your post I can see that you're not that good with logic either. Even in this very quote you indicate something very stupid.



Kage no Yume said:


> You don't seem to realize that being able to manipulate multi-verses is a better feat than being able to partially manipulate a universe.


The same mathematics apply to all universes, in all realities in the eleven dimensional omniverse. They're unlike a universe, or multiverse, fundamental in nature.



Kage no Yume said:


> Numbers are merely a concept we humans have created in order to quantify the world around us.


We invented it to easier understand nature, we didn't create the concept of quantity.



Kage no Yume said:


> In some forms of math 2 + 2 = 12


But that's by using other symbols and interpretations, such as binary numbers make 1 + 1 = 10.

Assuming Jafar didn't use a numerical system with a fractional base then he indicated that he could warp the very fundamental rules of the universe.



Kage no Yume said:


> Since when is anything below omnipotent greater than omnipotent?


Did you have any evidence or not?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> As I said, it was part of the story. Unless you need everything spoon fed to you, you'd accept it for what it was. A part of the continuity.



A character statement. Like Cell can destroy the solar system. Or Itachi cannot be defeated by anyone without a sharingan.



> They were still submitted to logic, like programmers they're able to apply and alter numbers not the nature of numbers.



Then how were they able to perform infinite calculations in a finite amount of time?



> I've already responded to this, altering a universal constant and violate the fundamental laws of reality are two different things. The latter being much more impressive.



Universal constants _are_ the fundamental laws of reality.



> It was a hypothetical argument, if he was beyond the effects then it would've worked.



How do you know he is? How do you know he can do any such thing at all other than an off-the-cuff statement? Actually, that's one of the major problems with this whole "ignoring logic" argument. If you start to claim that logic is irrelevant, than I can say that Z wins because of blah blah snort snort dribble dribble dribble. Completely valid argument under that system.



> Is it even canon?



Yes.


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## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> A character statement.


I believe you told us to view a series as if it was a documentary.



Endless Mike said:


> Like Cell can destroy the solar system. Or Itachi cannot be defeated by anyone without a sharingan.


The former may be valid as there's no contradicting evidence. The latter can be disproved thus isn't valid.



Endless Mike said:


> Then how were they able to perform infinite calculations in a finite amount of time?


The Chousin existed for an infinite amount of time.





Endless Mike said:


> Universal constants _are_ the fundamental laws of reality.


Not according to string theory.

- 



Endless Mike said:


> How do you know he is? How do you know he can do any such thing at all other than an off-the-cuff statement?


I assumed that the writers of the story were right.



Endless Mike said:


> Actually, that's one of the major problems with this whole "ignoring logic" argument. If you start to claim that logic is irrelevant, than I can say that Z wins because of blah blah snort snort dribble dribble dribble. Completely valid argument under that system.


Yes, because if you operate beyond the fundamental rules of reality there are no restrictions. The omnipotence you've been so eager to prove lies within the absolute of being capable of acting beyond those laws.

Another concept, absolute infinity was--by Michael Hallet in his book "Cantorian set theory and limitation of size"--proven to be beyond logic.



Endless Mike said:


> Yes.


Well then, could you provide some scans of statements that confirms that it reduces it to nothingness?


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> Reasoning? Or was it a hypothetical scenario?



Hypothetical. 

I'm not making a call either way, because Z has never killed an immortal reality warper. At the same time, Z is protected by the the power of multiversal beings who are beyond Jafar, so Jafar more than likely can't harm Z.

Things to point out though are that Z is not a Chousein and the Chousein are not in this battle. Also, Jafar is not omnipotent as he is still bound by the laws of the genie.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> I believe you told us to view a series as if it was a documentary.



Or a record of events. Characters can't lie now?



> The former may be valid as there's no contradicting evidence. The latter can be disproved thus isn't valid.



Actually it can't, since Itachi was defeated by Sasuke who had a sharingan.

Anyway "may be valid" is hardly sufficient evidence to base an entire argument around. Your entire argument focuses on an interpretation of one throwaway line of dialogue with no actual evidence to back it up.



> The Chousin existed for an infinite amount of time.
> 
> *snip*



And your point is? They were clearly done with their calculations by the time they made that speech. And they stated that they had started said calculations at a definite point in the past, since they had first decided to seek out a greater power than themselves.

Therefore, they spent an infinite amount of time doing something, and yet finished. Infinite time compressed into finite time, which is against logic.



> Not according to string theory.
> 
> *snip*



That article does not support your case at all; it says that Einstein's theories of the speed of light being constant are true.



> I assumed that the writers of the story were right.



So you assume anything a character says is right, and characters cannot lie or be mistaken about anything?



> Yes, because if you operate beyond logic there are no restrictions. The omnipotence you've been so eager to prove lies within the absolute of being capable of acting beyond logic.
> 
> Another concept, absolute infinity was--by Michael Hallet in his book "Cantorian set theory and limitation of size"--proven to be beyond logic.



So what is your point? Your argument fails both ways.



> Well then, could you provide some scans of statements that confirms that it reduces it to nothingness?



I'd have to dig up the episodes again.

Here, try this:

Link removed

9:02 - the laws of physics have just been shattered

9:47 - 9:55 - you can see it being compressed until it simply disappears

Keep in mind this is just what I could find with a quick search


----------



## Captain Smoker (Jul 23, 2009)

Stalemate. Jafar is immortal newbs. WTF can Z do? Whats Z best feat that compares to destroying a immortal Nigh omnipotent genie?


----------



## Ulti (Jul 23, 2009)

Obvious Raigen bait is obvious 

Now now Hellspawn. The OBD isn't a fishing spot. I don't condone baiting :ho


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> The same mathematics apply to all universes, in all realities in the eleven dimensional omniverse. They're unlike a universe, or multiverse, fundamental in nature.
> 
> We invented it to easier understand nature, we didn't create the concept of quantity.



The Choushin can shatter reality itself.  Shattering reality > Manipulating math.

Lighthawk wings are powered by a cosmic force equal to the Choushin.

Thus LHW > Jafar's math manipulation.



> But that's by using other symbols and interpretations, such as binary numbers make 1 + 1 = 10.
> 
> Assuming Jafar didn't use a numerical system with a fractional base then he indicated that he could warp the very fundamental rules of the universe.



So you're just assuming this then?  Going off of a character statement that might not have been talking about changing the laws of the universe at all, but rather changing our perception of them?



> Did you have any evidence or not?



Evidence that an omnipotent level being can beat a being not even on an abstract level?

Can TOAA beat someone weaker than Galactus?


And why did you even bring omnipotence up?  Kami-Tenchi is not in this fight.


----------



## ∅ (Jul 23, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Or a record of events. Characters can't lie now?


They can. But if you want to make a case for a character lying or speaking out of ignorance, you better have some evidence for it.



Endless Mike said:


> Actually it can't, since Itachi was defeated by Sasuke who had a sharingan.


But there are pieces of evidence against it, such as Madara--who had similar powers--being defeated by Shodai.

Also you have to realize that it is within the framework of the Naruto universe. If Itachi was stronger than Pein (which is arguable) then the statement would've been true.



Endless Mike said:


> Anyway "may be valid" is hardly sufficient evidence to base an entire argument around. Your entire argument focuses on an interpretation of one throwaway line of dialogue with no actual evidence to back it up.


The dialogue and the black board _is_ a piece of evidence.



Endless Mike said:


> And your point is? They were clearly done with their calculations by the time they made that speech.


They lived for an infinite amount of time.



Endless Mike said:


> And they stated that they had started said calculations at a definite point in the past, since they had first decided to seek out a greater power than themselves.
> 
> Therefore, they spent an infinite amount of time doing something, and yet finished. Infinite time compressed into finite time, which is against logic.


No, they spent an infinite time calculating.



And even if that was the case it wouldn't necessarily be beyond logic. If they made one calculation per infinitesimal time unit that passed it would have made an infinite amount of calculations at any quantifiable time.



Endless Mike said:


> That article does not support your case at all; it says that Einstein's theories of the speed of light being constant are true.


_"In order to implement this idea in a concrete physical theory, *it is necessary to postulate a multiverse in which fundamental physical parameters can take different values.* This has been realized in the context of eternal inflation."_

- 



Endless Mike said:


> So you assume anything a character says is right, and characters cannot lie or be mistaken about anything?


No.



Endless Mike said:


> I'd have to dig up the episodes again.


I too go through anime and manga to prove my points.



Endless Mike said:


> Here, try this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You know, that could've been a black hole? The physics shatter once we approach the singularity, because the gravity (general relativity) is forced together (by becoming intense and significant) with quantum physics.



Kage no Yume said:


> The Choushin can shatter reality itself.  Shattering reality > Manipulating math.
> 
> Lighthawk wings are powered by a cosmic force equal to the Choushin.
> 
> Thus LHW > Jafar's math manipulation.


The Chousin could shatter the universe and arguably the hyper-dimensions, but not all-reality.

Furthermore, being able to manipulate the fundamental rules of all-reality would mean that you could shatter all-reality.



Kage no Yume said:


> So you're just assuming this then? Going off of a character statement that might not have been talking about changing the laws of the universe at all, but rather changing our perception of them?


I don't see any reason for why the writers would use an alternate numeric systems. Hence I assume that they use a used the numeric system with ten as base. Alternate numeric systems aside from the binary (0,1) are rarely used anywhere anyway.



Kage no Yume said:


> Evidence that an omnipotent level being can beat a being not even on an abstract level?
> 
> Can TOAA beat someone weaker than Galactus?


Straw man fallacy. When you come with evidence that Kami Tenchi can manipulate the fundamental rules of reality whether it's making 2 + 2 = 5 or drawing a square circle I'll concede.



Kage no Yume said:


> And why did you even bring omnipotence up?  Kami-Tenchi is not in this fight.


I didn't bring him up, Raigen did and I refuted him.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

A said:


> The Chousin could shatter the universe and arguably the hyper-dimensions, but not all-reality.



That's still above what Jafar can do.  There's no evidence he can even shatter reality in one universe.



> Furthermore, being able to manipulate the fundamental rules of all-reality would mean that you could shatter all-reality.



That would be a composition fallacy.  

Just because he can manipulate a part of something doesn't mean he can manipulate the whole.  Especially when you consider how small a part that is when regarding everything else that makes up a universe.



> I don't see any reason for why the writers would use an alternate numeric systems. Hence I assume that they use a used the numeric system with ten as base. Alternate numeric systems aside from the binary (0,1) are rarely used anywhere anyway.



You responded to one part of my post, but not the other:

Going off of a character statement that might not have been talking about changing the laws of the universe at all, but rather changing our perception of them?

Where's the proof that Jafar was going to change a fundamental law of the universe and not just the way humans see this fundamental law?  It's a lot easier to just make everyone on Earth believe that 2+2=5, and also much more in character for Genie and Jafar.

Unless Jafar has changed some other fundamental law _universally_ in the past (has any genie done anything _universally_ for that matter)?




> Straw man fallacy. When you come with evidence that Kami Tenchi can manipulate the fundamental rules of reality whether it's making 2 + 2 = 5 or drawing a square circle I'll concede.
> 
> I didn't bring him up, Raigen did and I refuted him.



He is a true omnipotent by OBD standards...wait a sec, arguing omnipotence with A....

I'm sorry, I forgot myself for a moment there.  Your obstinacy knows no bounds when it comes to such matters.  Let's just say we argued over the semantics of omnipotence in fiction for several pages and then don't .


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

Its either a stalemate or a win for Z.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

at A anyway this is a Stalemate. You required universal force to 'stop' Z with 2 LHWS, what is required when he's at full power?.

Jafar and Genie are below Mirage who I doubt is God since Disneyverse has cross overs like that one episode where Hercules characters met the Aladdin characters. Whose the most powerful Disney character again? I doubt it's Jafar seeing as how Genie was scared of Mirage if I recall. Where was it stated Genie>Jafar or Jafar>Genie again?


----------



## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Hercules is their 'strongest' character (physically) or one of them. Hades in that Aladdin/Hercules crossover actually brought Jafar back from the dead with all his magic, and when Jafar failed he punted his ass back into purgatory. And then there's also Eris, Goddess of Discord from the Sinbad animated movie. Still have others like Maleficent and that evil wizard from the Black Cauldron. There's a lot of evil magic users in the Disney-verse.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

They have crossed over with Looney Toons. Buggs bunny solos.


----------



## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Bugs is not Disney, so it's non-canon. Company crossovers are in general non-canon. Herc/Aladdin crossover is acceptable since it's all part of the Disney-verse.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

Bugs is Cannon to the real world


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Tranquil Fury said:


> at A anyway this is a Stalemate. You required universal force to 'stop' Z with 2 LHWS, what is required when he's at full power?.
> 
> Jafar and Genie are below Mirage who I doubt is God since Disneyverse has cross overs like that one episode where Hercules characters met the Aladdin characters. Whose the most powerful Disney character again? I doubt it's Jafar seeing as how Genie was scared of Mirage if I recall. Where was it stated Genie>Jafar or Jafar>Genie again?



I don't recall Mirage ever doing anything to place her above an unreleased genie. Genie was scared of her due to having reduced power.

As for the gods, while they are immortal, the genies' power is bryond their's. Physically, Herculese threw several Titans into space and Hades burned down an entire forest. To answer your question, it was stated in the second movie that genies lose a lot of their power when freed from the lamp.

Supposedly the most powerful being would be Chaos the cat, BTW.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Hercules is their 'strongest' character (physically) or one of them. Hades in that Aladdin/Hercules crossover actually brought Jafar back from the dead with all his magic, and when *Jafar failed he punted his ass back into purgatory.* And then there's also Eris, Goddess of Discord from the Sinbad animated movie. Still have others like Maleficent and that evil wizard from the Black Cauldron. There's a lot of evil magic users in the Disney-verse.



The only thing that is failing right now is you, Raigen. Hades was not the one who sent Jafar back to the River of Souls (Stix), it was Hercules. Herc broke Jafar's staff, which is what was keeping him alive, and Jafar just so happened to be standing over the River. Stop your bullshit.

And that episode was full of PIS. Jafar lost his status as a genie with no explantion. It was just done so Hercules and Aladdin would have to deal with such a powerful being. And Hercules couldn't hold up a damn building in that episode.


----------



## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

He lost his genie status cause he *died* when his lamp broke. It's disney, they don't need to explain.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> I don't recall Mirage ever doing anything to place her above an unreleased genie. Genie was scared of her due to having reduced power.
> 
> As for the gods, while they are immortal, the genies' power is bryond their's. Physically, Herculese threw several Titans into space and Hades burned down an entire forest. To answer your question, it was stated in the second movie that genies lose a lot of their power when freed from the lamp.
> 
> Supposedly the most powerful being would be Chaos the cat, BTW.



I see, How many beings would you say are above Jafar and Genie besides that one character?


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I see, How many beings would you say are above Jafar and Genie besides that one character? I think the Gods in Hercules would count as some. Though I have'nt seen it in a while.



In terms of power, the gods in Hercules would be lower than the denies based on showings. However, besides Chaos, there are the Sisters of Fate, who control and create reality itself.

Overall, there aren't many characters in Disney who are more powerful than the genies.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

I see well thank you, learned something new here.  you should make some disney pages for the wiki.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

I'd say Eris is. She made the constellations into literal monsters, and even when felled brought them back.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Was that in the Sinbad movie? I suddenly remembered Sinbad with Brad Pit's voice.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Was that in the Sinbad movie? I suddenly remembered Sinbad with Brad Pit's voice.



Yes it was.

As for profiles, I would but the characters aren't really used enough. I did create the page for Disney itself, though.



Lucaniel said:


> ....



Sad, isn't it?


----------



## Ulti (Jul 23, 2009)

Narcissus said:


> Yes it was.
> 
> As for profiles, I would but the characters aren't really used enough. I did create the page for Disney itself, though.
> 
> ...



I would say Jafar and Genie are being used quite a bit nowadays.


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

I do plan on doing one for Jafar.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Dinsey toonforce is not as powerful as Looney Toons IMO. Other then Raigen wanking, then should we call this for a win for Jafar or a draw?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Draw, neither can hurt the other.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Dinsey toonforce is not as powerful as Looney Toons IMO. Other then Raigen wanking, then should we call this for a win for Jafar or a draw?


i'd say the opposite, win for Z or a draw.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

He is a genie and Light Hawk wings have never proven themselves to be effective against abstract beings (He is a genie which means he has no real body). He should wish him when starts to attacks or after he attacks him.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

So Genie>Chousin?. This is a draw because both can't hurt each other.

With 2 LHWS Z needed a univere buster to be stopped what do 5 equate to?. We all except Raigen and A agreed on this as a draw and explained this as well.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

I agree I call it a draw. Maybe I should have made this thread into Z vs. Looney Toons instend.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

A Genie is not an abstract. It's just a magical creature, that's all. LHW supersede everything everything, that includes Genies with no feats, Power Cosmic Wielders, reality warpers, insta-death techniques, etc etc. This is a stomp in Z's favor, it always has been. There was never any debate, it was just one big fat pile of shit after another. Jafar gets hit with a LHW at 1080xLightspeed and he ceases to exist, *Period*. No come backs, no regeneration. No nothing. He doesn't exist anymore. Unless Z or the Chousin decide to bring him back, he's not coming back, and they can remove all his powers in the process.

All you ever had from Jafar was hyperbole and magic sparkles. That's it. He has no feats, he has no good showings, and didn't do anything that was even remotely noteworthy. Powerscaling does nothing since he hasn't proven anything with that power, whereas the LHW are stated and explained. LHW flat out trumps a Genie. It's irrefutable.


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## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Thank you Raigen, for wasting everyone's time with more bullshit.


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## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

The only bullshit was the spew people kept going on about with Jafar. Jafar has *no* feats and you believe he stands up to a LHW user, a power that's derived from beyond the existence of the Multiverse. You can't even begin to comprehend how completely ludicrous that argument is. Putting Jafar against Z is like putting a stuffed teddy bear against a nuclear bomb.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar has no feats? What was Movie 2?


----------



## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes, what did he do in movie 2? Oh, teleport an idiot to treasure underwater an later turned the ground to magma, which was then used to kill him via lamp destruction. Yeah, that was smart. When he can rape a planet effortlessly, then we'll talk.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OjS0j6t6fMs[/YOUTUBE]


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## killfox (Jul 23, 2009)

Not that Im going to argue in this debate, i just felt like posting a random vid of jafar manhandling genie lol.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdHVNuU2JbE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

> So Genie>Chousin?.



It toon force, what do you expect? Toon force is powers are not mean to be taken serious but I doubt I disagree on Genie>Chousin though.

Also the Tenchi Muyo movies are not canon much like the DBZ movies are.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> It toon force, what do you expect? Toon force is powers are not mean to be taken serious but I doubt I disagree on Genie>Chousin though.
> 
> Also the Tenchi Muyo movies are not canon much like the DBZ movies are.



Team Rocket has Toon force does'nt stop MewTwo or other Legendaries from doing anything to them if they choose to. Based on feats yes Jafar or Genie can't do anything but I doubt Z can either. Hence it's a draw. 

There are different levels of Toon force.

Anyway, based on feats Jafar doing anything like taking away LHWS is speculation. I'm not saying Z rapes or anything but he draws atleast. This should be a draw.


----------



## Bender (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Z is omnipotent.


----------



## Narcissus (Jul 23, 2009)

Reality warping, immortality, regeneration from nothing, transmutation, teleportation, all of Genie's feats, etc.

Even if Z wins, your claim that Jafar has no feats is more bullshit Raigen, and your claim that Z is omnipotent lessens your own credibility. And while the Chousin are above Jafar, Z is not one of them. Z is no where near their level.


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

He is too butthurt to admit that Z is not the strongest in the series and that he can't win every battle even if it is a tie.


----------



## tituspullo (Jul 23, 2009)

Z finds and destroys lamp.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Then Z leaves the battlefield and looses by BFR.


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## killfox (Jul 23, 2009)

This is from Wiki so im not sure how true it is, but if its true then Genie prime should be stronger than current genie. Thats why Jafar beat him so easily.

Genie was, before he got his freedom, the most powerful being in the Disney universe shown so far. As shown in the first movie, he could break the laws of nature, shapeshift into virtually anything, break the fourth wall, warp reality at a whim, lift the palace of Agrabah with no problems, give other people his power, undo the works of any magic, and escape a magically sealed cave. However, he had three limits to his powers; he could not kill, could not make people fall in love, and could not raise the dead (though he states that he can perform resurrections, but simply does not enjoy doing so as the resurrected are implied to be turned into zombies which he describes as "not a pretty picture"). Aside from these three limitations, he was omnipotent. After getting his freedom, his powers were severely reduced to a mere fraction of what it used to be, as shown when he failed to lift the palace he had lifted before with ease (he explains that his "phenomenal cosmic powers" were now only "semi-phenomenal nearly-cosmic powers", and Jafar defeated him with almost no effort during the "You're Only Second Rate" musical number as well as deflecting all of his magical attacks). However, he still had an unlimited amount of magical knowledge, and all his shapeshifting abilities. He also had high magic power, but was unable to undo any magic, a weakness with disastrous consequences; it is revealed in this film that he can also flawlessly imitate the voices of others, as seen when he shapeshifts into Aladdin in the ultimately failed attempt to distract Jafar while the real Aladdin grabs the latter's lamp. He appears to have gotten stronger in "Aladdin and the King of Thieves" (1996) where he had no problem with anything he tried


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## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar still wins for beging so much cooler and more of awesome of a villain since he is voice by Jonathan Freeman =D.


----------



## Captain Smoker (Jul 23, 2009)

Does anybody got a video of genie/jafar "Changing the laws of nature" or making 2+2=5? I cant recall that. Much appreciated.


----------



## Omega Level (Jul 23, 2009)

Captain Smoker said:


> Does anybody got a video of genie/jafar "Changing the laws of nature" or making 2+2=5? I cant recall that. Much appreciated.



He never did that. He said he could. All lies if you ask me.


----------



## killfox (Jul 23, 2009)

Well in this vid where he owns Genie, he has a board with 2+2=5, not that that proves anything at all. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdHVNuU2JbE[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar cannot harm Z.

The question is can Z kill Jafar?


----------



## killfox (Jul 23, 2009)

If Genie lost a lot of his power due to not being bound to his lamp anymore, since jafar is still bound to his lamp, shouldnt he have the same power that Genie useed to? (I posted info in my above post)


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## killfox (Jul 23, 2009)

Yet he was much weaker, he even said it himself somewhere. Which is why Jafar was to much for him.

If he was still bound to the lamp they would be on equal ground.


----------



## TSC (Jul 23, 2009)

killfox said:


> Yet he was much weaker, he even said it himself somewhere. Which is why Jafar was to much for him.
> 
> If he was still bound to the lamp they would be on equal ground.



In the original movie, When Jafar made his wish to become a genie, he asked to be "The most powerful genie ever" Therefore wouldn't that still make Jafar > Genie even if Genie wasn't weaken?


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Genie can make people stronger than him?


----------



## TSC (Jul 23, 2009)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Genie can make people stronger than him?



Well If Jafar asked to be the most powerful genie ever wouldn't that make the genie grant his wish? I dunno but he did say that in the original aladdin movie.


----------



## Tranquil Fury (Jul 23, 2009)

Yes except how does he grant power greater than his to someone? Where does he find that power?.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

I do not recall him stating that in the movie.

What is this "original" movie you speak of?


----------



## Raigen (Jul 23, 2009)

Lifting a castle and such doesn't even remotely compare to carving out a third of the planet with a gesture. The LHW negate any force used against them, so there's absolutely nothing Jafar could ever hope to do to scratch Z, much less win. Whereas Z has numerous options. And if Jafar is still bound to the lamp then that only makes this more of a stomp, as I've said before, break the lamp and Jafar dies.


----------



## NemeBro (Jul 23, 2009)

Jafar is more powerful than Z, for the record.

Genie after being freed spun the planet like a basketball, on his finger.

Jafar raped him.

Z is not as powerful as Jafar, Jafar just has absolutely no way to harm Z. As is usually the case.


----------



## Captain Smoker (Jul 23, 2009)

Raigen said:


> Lifting a castle and such doesn't even remotely compare to carving out a third of the planet with a gesture. The LHW negate any force used against them, so there's absolutely nothing Jafar could ever hope to do to scratch Z, much less win. Whereas Z has numerous options. And if Jafar is still bound to the lamp then that only makes this more of a stomp, as I've said before, break the lamp and Jafar dies.



Spinning a planet on your finger like a basketball>>destroying a 75% chunk of a planet.


----------



## Hellspawn28 (Jul 23, 2009)

> Z is not as powerful as Jafar, Jafar just has absolutely no way to harm Z. As is usually the case.



Well I would say that he might able to erase his LHW wings before he attacks then turn him to fly afterwards.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 23, 2009)

Hellspawn28 said:


> Well I would say that he might able to erase his LHW wings before he attacks then turn him to fly afterwards.



The lighthawk wings are powered by a cosmic entity far above Jafar.

So this either ends in a tie, or with the lighthawk wings being able to take out Jafar.  Given my previous statement, I vote for the latter .


----------



## TSC (Jul 24, 2009)

Dark-Jaxx said:


> I do not recall him stating that in the movie.
> 
> What is this "original" movie you speak of?



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eUANtnmoFLc&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

at around 7:50 mar or so


----------



## strongarm85 (Jul 24, 2009)

If a being has absolute power than it is perfectly conceivable that by definition would be able to do anything.


----------



## Kage no Yume (Jul 24, 2009)

strongarm85 said:


> If a being has absolute power than it is perfectly conceivable that by definition would be able to do anything.



Yes.  Because hyperbole doesn't exist, even when that statement has already been proven to be hyperbole by the medium itself.

Genies can't kill, can't make people fall in love, are destroyed when their lamps are destroyed, have to obey anyone who finds and releases them, remain sealed in a lamp until someone does release them, and have no feats that even put them at entity level besides an ambiguous 2+2=5 statement.


----------



## Azrael Finalstar (Jul 24, 2009)

I believe jafar wished to be an all powerful Genie.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2009)

A said:


> They can. But if you want to make a case for a character lying or speaking out of ignorance, you better have some evidence for it.



Burden of proof is on the positive. He never showed anything like what you claim.



> But there are pieces of evidence against it, such as Madara--who had similar powers--being defeated by Shodai.



We don't know the details of that fight.



> Also you have to realize that it is within the framework of the Naruto universe. If Itachi was stronger than Pein (which is arguable) then the statement would've been true.



Not really. Pain is not the strongest Naruto character. You are simply trying to wank a throwaway line/visual into something that was never implied ever
.


> The dialogue and the black board _is_ a piece of evidence.



No it's not, because it has nothing to back it up.

Consider this: If genies can willingly void logic, as you claim, then how come they have rules that they must follow? No killing, no forcing love, and no resurrections. If you are right, why couldn't a genie simply ignore those rules if he wanted to?



> They lived for an infinite amount of time.



AND YOUR POINT IS....?

Infinity never stops. They could not have finished an infinite calculation without subverting logic.



> No, they spent an infinite time calculating.
> 
> *snip*
> 
> And even if that was the case it wouldn't necessarily be beyond logic. If they made one calculation per infinitesimal time unit that passed it would have made an infinite amount of calculations at any quantifiable time.



But that's the same as doing calculations in 0 time. Infinitesimal is effectively equal to 0. Which means they would have been done all at once, which was not the case. They said they spent an infinite amount of time, yet they finished.



> _"In order to implement this idea in a concrete physical theory, *it is necessary to postulate a multiverse in which fundamental physical parameters can take different values.* This has been realized in the context of eternal inflation."_
> 
> *snip*



What does that have to do with the original article you linked me? And the universes in the hyperdimension have different laws of physics and constants.



> I too go through anime and manga to prove my points.



I don't think I recall you actually ever proving anything.



> You know, that could've been a black hole? The physics shatter once we approach the singularity, because the gravity (general relativity) is forced together (by becoming intense and significant) with quantum physics.



Only due to our current understanding, there are many physical models for a black hole that we are still working on.

Defying current scientific understanding =/= breaking the laws of physics. Furthermore, if it was a black hole, it would evaporate with a large explosion.



> The Chousin could shatter the universe and arguably the hyper-dimensions, but not all-reality.



Define "all reality"



> Straw man fallacy. When you come with evidence that Kami Tenchi can manipulate the fundamental rules of reality whether it's making 2 + 2 = 5 or drawing a square circle I'll concede.



Show me evidence Jafar can do it, other than a sight gag in a musical number.

In addition, Zero was programmed with all of the knowledge in an entire universe, and according to his understanding, it was impossible for Tokimi to exist, yet she did. Proving that the Chousein are not bound by logical possibilities.


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## Platinum (Jul 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Consider this: If genies can willingly void logic, as you claim, then how come they have rules that they must follow? No killing, no forcing love, and no resurrections. If you are right, why couldn't a genie simply ignore those rules if he wanted to?



I believe that Genie said that he can raise the dead but he doesn't like doing it because they come out as zombies or something. But the other two points are still valid.

Genie even said at the start of the vid that a Genie cannot kill anyone.


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## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Genies can raise the dead, but not completely, they are zombies.


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## Ulti (Jul 25, 2009)

Genies can raise the dead but Genie had this to say:

"It's not a pretty picture. I don't like doing it!"


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2009)

So? If he could ignore logic he could make them not zombies.


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## NemeBro (Jul 25, 2009)

Ignore logic?

You mean that little 2+2=5 gag?

Yeah no, not to be used in a vs. thread IMO.


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## TSC (Jul 25, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> In addition, Zero was programmed with all of the knowledge in an entire universe, and according to his understanding, it was impossible for Tokimi to exist, yet she did. Proving that the Chousein are not bound by logical possibilities.



I was bit confused by that when I watched the OVA series. How did he concluded that it's impossible for Tokimi to exist? Z had all knowledge of his universe which is 3D dimension universe. The chousen are from 12th dimension meaning 12th universe so of course Z will have no data of Tokimi since she from 12th not 3rd. I think that's how it goes...

Someone needs to make a Tenchi wikia so things are easier to understand. LOL


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 26, 2009)

At the absolute worst this is a stalemate because without Jafar's lamp being present I'm unclear as to whether you could destroy his form.

Of course, that said, there's absolutely nothing that any form of Jafar has shown that can even make Z scratch his balls....


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## ∅ (Jul 28, 2009)

Endless Mike said:


> Burden of proof is on the positive. He never showed anything like what you claim.


Actually the burden of proof goes both ways. If you claim that something whether positive or negative you have to prove it.

He did indicate that he could make _"2 + 2 =5"_, that's enough to convince me of what the authors intended.



Endless Mike said:


> We don't know the details of that fight.


Irrelevant. The point is he was defeated.



Endless Mike said:


> Not really. Pain is not the strongest Naruto character. You are simply trying to wank a throwaway line/visual into something that was never implied ever.


The third data-book heavily suggests that Susano'o is far greater than anything Pein could ditch out.



Endless Mike said:


> No it's not, because it has nothing to back it up.


Didn't you read what i said? The blackboard and the speech _is_ a piece of evidence.



Endless Mike said:


> Consider this: If genies can willingly void logic, as you claim, then how come they have rules that they must follow? No killing, no forcing love, and no resurrections. If you are right, why couldn't a genie simply ignore those rules if he wanted to?


The plot is the major issue you're getting at. The genie can manifest people, turn apes into elephants but he can't rearrange the neurons in such a manner that one will fall in love with another? It doesn't make sense, but apparently is the case.



Endless Mike said:


> AND YOUR POINT IS....?
> 
> Infinity never stops. They could not have finished an infinite calculation without subverting logic.
> 
> But that's the same as doing calculations in 0 time. Infinitesimal is effectively equal to 0. Which means they would have been done all at once, which was not the case. They said they spent an infinite amount of time, yet they finished.


There's a problem in the concept of having existed for an infinite amount of time in the first place. There can not have been an infinite amount of time ago because we'd never reach this moment in time.

But assuming that there can be, then they could've have made an infinite amount of calculations. Imagine a time-line: [-∞ ≤ t ≤ x] where x is the time of the end of the universe.

Now assuming that they stated the calculations at [t = -∞], then if they stopped at a finite amount of time for instance [t = 2,000] (a fitting year) then they would've made an infinite amount of calculations.



Endless Mike said:


> What does that have to do with the original article you linked me? And the universes in the hyperdimension have different laws of physics and constants.


The main argument was that changing the nature of numbers is less of a feat than changing universal parameters (i.e. G). The first article was not the one I intended to link, the second was.



Endless Mike said:


> I don't think I recall you actually ever proving anything.


Well some points were in fact proven, the essential points are however just theories since there are evidence for them.




Endless Mike said:


> Only due to our current understanding, there are many physical models for a black hole that we are still working on.


There are consistent mathematical models, of which it could've been based of.



Endless Mike said:


> Defying current scientific understanding =/= breaking the laws of physics.


No, we say that the laws of physics breaks down as we approach the singularity of a black hole. But technically the fundamental laws doesn't break down.



Endless Mike said:


> Furthermore, if it was a black hole, it would evaporate with a large explosion.


That's not how black holes work.



Endless Mike said:


> Define "all reality"


In the given context, every dimension including the one Kami exists in and potential ones beyond him.



Endless Mike said:


> Show me evidence Jafar can do it, other than a sight gag in a musical number.


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=84K6Zvvem-Y[/YOUTUBE]

4:55

Genie: So what will it be master?
Aladdin: You're going to grant me _any_ three wishes I want, right?
Geinie: Almost, there are a couple of provisos, quid pro quos...
Aladdin: Like?
Genie: Rule number one! I can't kill anybody. So don't ask. Rule number two! I can't make anybody fall in love with anyone else. You little punim there. Rule number three! I can't bring people back from the dead. It's not a pretty picture. I don't like doing it! *Other than that you got it.*



Endless Mike said:


> In addition, Zero was programmed with all of the knowledge in an entire universe, and according to his understanding, it was impossible for Tokimi to exist, yet she did. Proving that the Chousein are not bound by logical possibilities.


No, you're mistaken. People in the Matrix is a good example. If the Matrix was perfect--no rebells, anomalies, etc.--it would be impossible for people to realize that they were trapped by machines. Even if there was a--within the matrix--omniscient software, it wouldn't necessarily "realize" what's outside of the computer.



Kage no Yume said:


> That's still above what Jafar can do. There's no evidence he can even shatter reality in one universe.


There's a piece of evidence for that he can manipulate the nature of numbers. Which technically could lead to a breakdown of all-reality as it's defined.



Kage no Yume said:


> That would be a composition fallacy.
> 
> Just because he can manipulate a part of something doesn't mean he can manipulate the whole. Especially when you consider how small a part that is when regarding everything else that makes up a universe.


Quantity is one of the most important aspects of all existence. If you make a small alteration of the nature of quantity all-reality would break down.



Kage no Yume said:


> You responded to one part of my post, but not the other:


When I do that it's either because I agree, concede or have refuted the position in the same post. I see no point in repeating the same argument twice.



Kage no Yume said:


> Going off of a character statement that might not have been talking about changing the laws of the universe at all, but rather changing our perception of them?
> 
> Where's the proof that Jafar was going to change a fundamental law of the universe and not just the way humans see this fundamental law?  It's a lot easier to just make everyone on Earth believe that 2+2=5, and also much more in character for Genie and Jafar.
> 
> Unless Jafar has changed some other fundamental law _universally_ in the past (has any genie done anything _universally_ for that matter)?


Possible, but not as likely.

_"You have a lot to learn about the genie game." - Jafar_

I can also bring up the idea of that genies can grant _any wish_ beside death, love and resurrection.

As for him having any universe-wide scaled feats.

[Youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okvnUzTRwU0[/Youtube]

3:00 - "The power, the absolute power! The universe is my to command! To control!"



Kage no Yume said:


> He is a true omnipotent by OBD standards...


In truth he isn't, due to multiple contradictions within the mainframe of the OBD.



Kage no Yume said:


> I'm sorry, I forgot myself for a moment there.  Your obstinacy knows no bounds when it comes to such matters.  Let's just say we argued over the semantics of omnipotence in fiction for several pages and then don't .


Some people post at forums to learn, others to win arguments. Sadly you're one of the latter.


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## Captain Smoker (Jul 28, 2009)

I agree with A. Jafar is a high end reality warper, on a universal scale. This match is a stalemate.


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## NemeBro (Jul 29, 2009)

No he's not.

One statement a universal reality warper does not make.

Freeza referred to himself as the strongest in the universe, hell, Vegeta in the Saiyan saga did, they were wrong, Vegeta even knew it.

Odin has referred to himself as omnipotent. He's so clearly not.

It's a statement with no evidence to back it up, arrogant villainous claims of grandeur are not feats.


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