# Kisame vs The Sannin



## Troyse22 (Jan 9, 2017)

Location: Middle of the ocean.
Knowledge: Full for Kisame, none for the Sannin
Distance: 100m
Restrictions: Edo Tensei
Stipulations/notes: Oro is in a healthy body.
Jiraiya starts in base
Tsunade is as she was when she became Hokage.

My opinion is Kisame wins. I will elaborate more tomorrow

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 5 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 2


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 9, 2017)

Sanin individually solo in all likelihood . He cannot take on three sanin with combo attacks.
Tsunade is the only debatable one
Will elaborate it tomorrow .
Good night.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 9, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Sanin individually solo
> Tsunade is the only debatable one
> Will elaborate it tomorrow as well.
> Good night.




Even with knowledge and location?

I don't agree with your assessment but I'd like to hear justification.

I can't rn I'm on a phone


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## Gohara (Jan 9, 2017)

Jiraiya > Tsunade/Kisame > Orochimaru IMO.  I'm not sure who would win in a match up between Tsunade and Kisame but Orochimaru was bested by Mini 4 Tails Naruto, and Kisame is a Bijuu level character.  Jiraiya is around as powerful as Pain, who is more powerful than Kisame.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 4 | Optimistic 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

Gohara said:


> Orochimaru was bested by Mini 4 Tails Naruto


Orochimaru himself referred to that battle as "play time" and was in a failing body with no arms.. I should also note that if you look at the feats its a blow for blow battle between the two

OT: Manda alone can push the dude (Full Knowledge + Ocean) to High Difficulty since anything less than Daikodan gets tanked (and even then Manda has a good chance of pushing through since Daikodan is featless af) if we throw in some backup (Jiraiya, Gamabunta & Tsunade) its a stomp and the knowledge honestly changes close to nothing considering how straightforward Sannin and Kisames techs are .. ill give this to Sannin Low - Medium Difficulty on their worst day .


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## Bonly (Jan 10, 2017)

Either of the Sannin could solo Kisame under normal conditions but under these conditions Orochi could solo and Tsunade could do it so adding in all three is still gonna end in Kisame's loss here though he'd put up a better fight then normal due to being in the middle of the ocean.

Reactions: Agree 6


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Oh my god. I can't wait to participate in this.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Kisame gets shit diff 
Either jiriaya or orochimaru solo

And this is the guy who says Minato gets wanked 

Swear there should be bans for hypocrisy when excercised so blatantly

Reactions: Agree 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Orochimaru himself referred to that battle as "play time" and was in a failing body with no arms.. I should also note that if you look at the feats its a blow for blow battle between the two
> 
> OT: Manda alone can push the dude (Full Knowledge + Ocean) to High Difficulty since anything less than Daikodan gets tanked (and even then Manda has a good chance of pushing through since Daikodan is featless af) if we throw in some backup (Jiraiya, Gamabunta & Tsunade) its a stomp and the knowledge honestly changes close to nothing considering how straightforward Sannin and Kisames techs are .. ill give this to Sannin Low - Medium Difficulty on their worst day .



 Let's not get crazy here. Manda's not solo'ing any Akatsuki member save for Zetsu and Hidan.


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 10, 2017)

Kisame stands no chance in CQC against guys who can use curse mark destroy you with a single punch poison you.

Feeding sharks can be easily dealt with Zeshi Neshan ,  while techniques like gamyo endan will reduce
Jiraiya also can operate inside water as we all know (1) (2)
So he can pull kisame in one o the barriers and destroy him there  

Or may  be make kisame evolve from Pisces to an amphibian


There are many ways to deal with kisame. Dome get busted through with boss summons . Tsunade and oro should tank daikodan while jiraiya can go underwater in his toad. May be gamabuntas leap should take jiraiya away from the AOE of the daikodan.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

The reason I believe Kisame has a good shot here is because of the location and knowledge stipulations.

To be a threat to Kisame, Jiraiya needs to get into SM, which would be next to impossible in this battle.

Kisame casually handles Oro with Water Prison, this should effectively drown him.

Kisame can handle Tsunade. His reactionary feats have proven himself faster than Tsunade's punches and kicks. She also has a very linear and predictable line of attack, something Kisame can casually handle. Even if Tsunade lands a punch or a kick, Kisame will tank without a doubt. Tsunade doesn't possess V2 Jinchuuriki or Hirudora levels of power. 

Jiraiya is then dealt with pretty easily based on the location and knowledge stipulations.

Katsuyu is non factor in a salt-water environment.

Manda cannot swim, so he'd drown.

Jiraiya's boss summons are answered with Daikodan or 1000 feeding sharks.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

An anaconda can't swim ?





Omg the wank




Jesus help us


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Let's not get crazy here. Manda's not solo'ing any Akatsuki member save for Zetsu and Hidan.


I don't think Manda can solo Kisame - not in this scenario - but he would push Kisame to use his strongest techs since regular suitons get tanked and 1,000 feeding sharks gets destroyed .. it would take Daikodan or Waterdome to handle Manda alone.


Troyse22 said:


> To be a threat to Kisame, Jiraiya needs to get into SM, which would be next to impossible in this battle.


It wouldn't be impossible at all - with Orochimaru & Tsunade here as back up SM wouldn't even be necessary though these two can easily pressure Kisame long enough for Jiraiya to get into SM. 





> Kisame casually handles Oro with Water Prison, this should effectively drown him.


wow you put such little thought into your post. a water prison not only requires the user to be in close range which leaves him open to shit like  Kusanagi Snipe or Senei Tajashu but can also easily be busted with a fodder snake summon. really though full knowledge Kisame isn't stupid enough to even try using such shit-rank jutsu against these guys. its like me saying Kisame gets one-shotted by Kanashibari no Jutsu.

I'm not going to continue.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 10, 2017)

Water prison isn't doing crap against Oro. The person who it's most effective on would probably be Tsunade.


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## Jackalinthebox (Jan 10, 2017)

If Kisame takes a chakra enhanced punch to the face from Tsunade, he's more than likely fucked. He isn't taking it, that's for sure


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## Android (Jan 10, 2017)

Kisame get gutted bitch difficulty .
Either one of them could solo , or at the very least give a high diff fight and lose due to location .
Together they just rip him to shreds .


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 10, 2017)

Holy...wow...


Kisame gets murdered


2/3 sannin beat him solo with mid-high diff and you put fish boy against all 3???

The only sannin kisame could maybe beat would be tsunade...oro and jman make him look like a toddler.


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## Ayala (Jan 10, 2017)

Middle of the ocean is a bitch though, in all honesty. That's Kisame's territory and fuel to his jutsu. They can't really mess around in a place like the middle of ocean. 

The 3 sannin all together take it, but one on one, he beats them as i see it.


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The reason I believe Kisame has a good shot here is because of the location and knowledge stipulations.
> 
> To be a threat to Kisame, Jiraiya needs to get into SM, which would be next to impossible in this battle.
> 
> ...


Are you talking about Part 1 Rusty Tsuande or in Shape Tsunade? If it's the latter then....


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Water prison isn't doing crap against Oro. The person who it's most effective on would probably be Tsunade.


Water Prison is shit to Tsuande because of her physical strength and ability to summon Katsuyu on the spot. Water Prison kinda is a joke when Kage Level shinobi are considered.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jan 10, 2017)

All of the Sannin can defeat Kisame on their own without much difficulty, believing that he can even remotely stand up against all of them is pure fanboyism at it's finest. This battle shouldn't even be entertained, it's such a ridiculous match-up that this thread should be locked.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Mods clearly show bias towards posters 
Shown by the fact that this isn't locked 
Despite the comical imbalance

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Jossaff (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse just stop , you're making everyone to hate Kisame

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Mods clearly show bias towards posters
> Shown by the fact that this isn't locked
> Despite the comical imbalance



I really really doubt they're biased in my favor.

In fact the exact opposite was determined by Super Moderators



Veracity said:


> Are you talking about Part 1 Rusty Tsuande or in Shape Tsunade? If it's the latter then....



Read OP, Tsunade is as she was when she became the Hokage.



Jackalinthebox said:


> If Kisame takes a chakra enhanced punch to the face from Tsunade, he's more than likely fucked. He isn't taking it, that's for sure



He was still conscious and taunting Bee after losing multiple organs to a V2 Lariat.

Sasuke was KO'd, and looked to have the same extent of damage, if not more than Kisame from his V1 Lariat.

Kisame is a durability monster, Tsunade cannot replicate Bee's feat against Kisame.


@multiple people, why isn't water prison effective?

What is this based on?


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## Sapherosth (Jan 10, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Water Prison is shit to Tsuande because of her physical strength and ability to summon Katsuyu on the spot. Water Prison kinda is a joke when Kage Level shinobi are considered.




Can't remember if physical strength matters under the water prison. Don't remember any instances where it was broken with brute force. Summoning Katsuyu requires Tsunade to bite her fingers to draw blood which would be difficult if she can barely move under the water. However, if she can move then water prison would turn into a joke.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Jossaff said:


> Troyse just stop , you're making everyone to hate Kisame



People can hate all they want. The general consensus on these forums borders on the retarded.

My opinions might certainly be controversial, but I can back every one of them


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## Sapherosth (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> People can hate all they want. The general consensus on these forums borders on the retarded.
> 
> My opinions might certainly be controversial, but I can back every one of them




No no no, you THINK that you've backed them up, but in reality, you didn't back up anything.

Reactions: Like 10


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I really really doubt they're biased in my favor.
> 
> In fact the exact opposite was determined by Super Moderators
> 
> ...



Cuz each of them can summon 

Each summon is horribly bigger than water prison 

And at least the size of water dome


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Cuz each of them can summon
> 
> Each summon is horribly bigger than water prison
> 
> And at least the size of water dome



ignore my entire paragraph. 

Cool fam.

But they can't weave signs in water prison.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> My opinion is Kisame wins


If you mean all three of them at once, and you're serious about this, I honestly have nothing to say.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> No no no, you THINK that you've backed them up, but in reality, you didn't back up anything.



I disagree.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> If you mean all three of them at once, and you're serious about this, I honestly have nothing to say.



Prove me wrong


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> ignore my entire paragraph.
> 
> Cool fam.
> 
> But they can't weave signs in water prison.



 since when does water prevent weaving hand signs

Honestly try and think before you post

Base bee was able to throw a punch at the shark while in water prison


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## Serene Grace (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Prove me wrong


Even if I "prove you wrong" you'll either:
1. completely ignore what I'm saying, and not refute a single thing or even bother to consider any of my arguments.(an example was the muu vs kisame thread)
2. Just act like this debate never happened, and still think what you thought prior to us arguing about this topic(an example was the multiple pain vs kisame threads)

So whats the point? Its not like anythings gonna change.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 1


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## Bonly (Jan 10, 2017)

Kisame had his hands by his chest when he used the water prison on himself and he still managed to use summoning jutsu while he was in a very weakened state physically and had his chakra being suppressed for god knows how long so while it's hard to move in the water prison, any of the Sannin should be able to break out via summoning their animals.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Prove me wrong



Everyone has you the sole poster who believes such 
Should tell you something 
We all read the same manga


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> since when does water prevent weaving hand signs
> 
> Honestly try and think before you post
> 
> Base bee was able to throw a punch at the shark while in water prison





the target is unable to move or breathe in it due to heaviness.

hence why putting Tsunade in would mean nothing.

Oro and Base Jiraiya have no physical strength hype or feats.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Even if I "prove you wrong" you'll either:
> 1. completely ignore what I'm saying, and not refute a single thing or even bother to consider any of my arguments.(an example was the muu vs kisame thread)
> 2. Just act like this debate never happened, and still think what you thought prior to us arguing about this topic(an example was the multiple pain vs kisame threads)
> 
> So whats the point? Its not like anythings gonna change.



I haven't gotten any notifs for Kisame vs Muu, quote what u want me to adress.

Pain vs Kisame was an unfinished debate.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> since when does water prevent weaving hand signs
> 
> Honestly try and think before you post
> 
> Base bee was able to throw a punch at the shark while in water prison



You're thinking of dome.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> the target is unable to move or breathe in it due to heaviness.
> 
> hence why putting Tsunade in would mean nothing.
> 
> Oro and Base Jiraiya have no physical strength hype or feats.



 kisame summons the sharks that eat him while trapped in his own water prison 

Bonly already posted the scans


Try look at it


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> kisame summons the sharks that eat him while trapped in his own water prison
> 
> Bonly already posted the scans
> 
> ...



Kisame obviously adjusted the strength of the prison so that he could still move, all he did was conjure a sphere of water and held it together via a small amount of chakra (a mini Waterdome if you will)

And Kisame was in his final moments, if that was water prison, he likely used everything bit of strength he had to move.

But i've always viewed that situation as a mini waterdome type of thing, as to maintain water prison, one has to steadily maintain it by continuously funneling chakra into it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame obviously adjusted the strength of the prison so that he could still move, all he did was conjure a sphere of water and held it together via a small amount of chakra (a mini Waterdome if you will)
> 
> And Kisame was in his final moments, if that was water prison, he likely used everything bit of strength he had to move.
> 
> But i've always viewed that situation as a mini waterdome type of thing, as to maintain water prison, one has to steadily maintain it by continuously funneling chakra into it.



That's your fanfic
Never implied he adjusted the strength or that he can


It was water prison and he moved

Killer bee moved as well

Please stop sounding this silly

summoning jutsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame obviously adjusted the strength of the prison so that he could still move, all he did was conjure a sphere of water and held it together via a small amount of chakra (a mini Waterdome if you will)
> 
> And Kisame was in his final moments, if that was water prison, he likely used everything bit of strength he had to move.
> 
> But i've always viewed that situation as a mini waterdome type of thing, as to maintain water prison, one has to steadily maintain it by continuously funneling chakra into it.



Gai tried to reach Kisame but couldn't fully do it. That means either A) Kisame adjusted the strength of the jutsu while Gai was powering through which means in a weakened state Kisame is physically stronger then Gai since he could still move to use summoning jutsu or B) the strength of the jutsu wasn't adjusted and it's just a case that laying a palm on water while already underwater isn't that hard to do while caught in the jutsu. Which makes more sense, A or B?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mithos (Jan 10, 2017)

Kisame cannot defeat any of the Sannin one on one. He literally admitted that even just one of the members (Jiraiya) was _out of his league_ because of Jiraiya's status as a Sannin. 

The location certainly favors Kisame, but he's against 3 ninja that all individually outclass him, by his own admission, and who are also renown for their legendary teamwork said to increase their power thrice fold when they battle together. 

Once the Sannin engage him in combat, he'll be quickly overpowered and outmaneuvered. He'll be lucky to survive for more than a minute once the fighting starts, to be honest.

Reactions: Like 2 | Dislike 1


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## Jad (Jan 10, 2017)

Mithos said:


> Kisame cannot defeat any of the Sannin one on one. He literally admitted that even just one of the members (Jiraiya) was _out of his league_ because of Jiraiya's status as a Sannin.
> 
> The location certainly favors Kisame, but he's against 3 ninja that all individually outclass him, by his own admission, and who are also renown for their legendary teamwork said to increase their power thrice fold when they battle together.
> 
> Once the Sannin engage him in combat, he'll be quickly overpowered and outmaneuvered. He'll be lucky to survive for more than a minute once the fighting starts, to be honest.


No. This is why the Sannins are overrated. The title of "Sannin" is not your auto-win card. Kisame had absolutely no knowledge on any of the Sannin fighting ability. He literally based his conclusion on their title. Shika says in the War that legends get inflated as time passes and so do their accomplishments. This was posted to you several hundred times. LostSelf, Yoko, Me, ecetra. You keep posting that scenario I will keep refuting it with Shika's quote. A bijuu hunter has more than enough hype and feats to compete against any Sannin. One on one. Not three on one like this thread.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3 | Disagree 3


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Don't see why Katsuyu isn't a factor here? Salt kills Slugs by drawing out water from their bodies. Katsuyu is literally sitting on a lake here....


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> That's your fanfic
> Never implied he adjusted the strength or that he can
> 
> 
> ...


Base Gai, Base Naruto, and Base Bee have all moved inside Waterdome. Troy can finally let go of his water dome hype.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2017)

Jad said:


> No. This is why the Sannins are overrated. The title of "Sannin" is not your auto-win card. Kisame had absolutely no knowledge on any of the Sannin fighting ability. He literally based his conclusion on their title. Shika says in the War that legends get inflated as time passes and so do their accomplishments. This was posted to you several hundred times. LostSelf, Yoko, Me, ecetra. You keep posting that scenario I will keep refuting it with Shika's quote. A bijuu hunter has more than enough hype and feats to compete against any Sannin. One on one. Not three on one like this thread.



 Except the Sannin lived up to their prestige by the accomplishments they made during the modern era. None of it was baseless nor exaggerated at all.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except the Sannin lived up to their prestige by the accomplishments they made during the modern era. *None of it was baseless nor exaggerated at all.[*/QUOTE]
> 
> So Jiraiya could take on Itachi and Kisame? Shut up.
> 
> And everyone seems to be confusing Waterdome and Water prison, they're not the same thing and function entirely differently


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Hate when it puts my response in a quote...

Reactions: Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2017)

@Troyse22

I was referring to his general reverence as a Sannin, not something hyperbolic that was contradicted by numerous events within the manga.


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

@Troyse22

Nope. Nobody is confusing waterdome with water prison. Icegaze provided you with a scan in which both Naruto and Bee moved during water prison while Bonly refuted your claims regarding Kisame's final water prison. You failed to construct a response for both of them. Sounds like your water prison hype has been dismantled. So the next time you bring up water prison being the G.O.A.T of all techinques and act like nobody refuted such... it's gonna sound like a really bad joke.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Ryuzaki (Jan 10, 2017)

This shit is so one-sided that the Sannin dig up Kisame's family and fuck them too. 

Kisame gets curbed.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 7


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## LostSelf (Jan 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Except the Sannin lived up to their prestige by the accomplishments they made during the modern era. None of it was baseless nor exaggerated at all.



It's not their feats that are overrated (despite some exceptions). It's how they manage to get "away with a lot of things" that the very same people debating it wouldn't allow for other characters, just because of the Title. Things like avoiding genjutsu just because they are sannin or taking feats extremely for granted because they are Sanni (Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei was a thing, because she's a Sannin and is not surprising or Manda beating 8th gated Gai).

Truth be told, Sannin is a title earned because they survived fighting Hanzo. Any current Akatsuki should be more powerful than the Young Sannin, and would've gotten the title. And to be honest, featwise, some Akatsuki has done more (or other characters) than the Sannin in their own especiality. The one going above being Jiraiya, who fought Pain. But featwise, he was running away from 3 and without frog song, was helpless. Even though credit should be made, fighting Pain with no knowledge is scary.

But to the thread: should i say Kisame is destroyed here? Even though i wouldn't favor any Sannin individually in these conditions. Nor i think they are "far above" Kisame either. Not part 2 Kisame, at least.

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> It's not their feats that are overrated (despite some exceptions). It's how they manage to get "away with a lot of things" that the very same people debating it wouldn't allow for other characters, just because of the Title. Things like avoiding genjutsu just because they are sannin or taking feats extremely for granted because they are Sanni (Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei was a thing, because she's a Sannin and is not surprising or Manda beating 8th gated Gai).
> 
> Truth be told, Sannin is a title earned because they survived fighting Hanzo. Any current Akatsuki should be more powerful than the Young Sannin, and would've gotten the title. And to be honest, featwise, some Akatsuki has done more (or other characters) than the Sannin in their own especiality. The one going above being Jiraiya, who fought Pain. But featwise, he was running away from 3 and without frog song, was helpless. Even though credit should be made, fighting Pain with no knowledge is scary.
> 
> But to the thread:Should i say Kisame is destroyed here? Even though i wouldn't favor any Sannin individually in these conditions. Nor i think they are "far above" Kisame either. Not part 2 Kisame, at least.



 I agree, the Sannin, specifically Jiraiya is egregiously overrated.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## LostSelf (Jan 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I agree, the Sannin, specifically Jiraiya is egregiously overrated.



Is that sarcasm, Uchiha?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 10, 2017)




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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

Veracity said:


> @Troyse22
> 
> Nope. Nobody is confusing waterdome with water prison. Icegaze provided you with a scan in which both Naruto and Bee moved during water prison while Bonly refuted your claims regarding Kisame's final water prison. You failed to construct a response for both of them. Sounds like your water prison hype has been dismantled. So the next time you bring up water prison being the G.O.A.T of all techinques and act like nobody refuted such... it's gonna sound like a really bad joke.




Never said water prison is GOAT. Waterdome is still an outrageously powerful jutsu, nothing has changed in that regard.

It doesn't let me click links when people copy them into their words for whatever reason.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Never said water prison is GOAT. Waterdome is still an outrageously powerful jutsu, nothing has changed in that regard.
> 
> It doesn't let me click links when people copy them into their words for whatever reason.


Here's the scan that Bonly posted. 


*Spoiler*: __ 









Here's Icegaze's scan of Bee and Naruto moving inside water prison

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> Is that sarcasm, Uchiha?



Jiraiya's prestige as a Sannin as justified, but the lengths that people go to when it's applied to create false pretenses such as Jiraiya negging Itachi is preposterous.


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Never said water prison is GOAT. Waterdome is still an outrageously powerful jutsu, nothing has changed in that regard.
> 
> *It doesn't let me click links when people copy them into their words for whatever reason*.



You act like it is though. This Is atleast the third time I've seen you say a Kage Level shinobi is offed by Waterdome lmao, with the lastest being Madara Uchiha of all people.

Then why wasn't the bold stated? Instead you just weave right past debates and it just makes your intial point look weak.


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## Veracity (Jan 10, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Jiraiya's prestige as a Sannin as justified, but the lengths that people go to when it's applied to create false pretenses such as Jiraiya negging Itachi is preposterous.



I believe in almost 100% of the Sannin hype, but I've _always_ viewed Itachi as Jirayia's superior. I mean his whole entire character revolved around being superior to Jirayia's equal; Oro.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gohara (Jan 10, 2017)

@ HandfullofNaruto.

Orochimaru is somewhat insane, though. When does he not treat a match up like it's play time? Lol.

There are parts of the match up where he was laughing but parts where he also looked serious. That's just Orochimaru's character. Every match up, even intense ones, are opportunities for him to evaluate Abilities and possibly learn from them. Orochimaru admitted that the match up was dangerous even before Mini 4 Tails Naruto had even went all out, and admitted that a Bijuu Dama from Mini 4 Tails Naruto would defeat him. Just one Bijuu Dama from Mini 4 Tails Naruto destroyed one of Orochimaru's ultimate defensive techniques. Also, Mini 4 Tails Naruto being mindless allowed Orochimaru to recover, which is when Orochimaru referred to it as play time. He simply said that play time is over, because he was retreating. So whether Orochimaru even meant it in the way that you're interpreting is debatable.

Orochimaru had arms during the match up.

Reactions: Disagree 2


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## Rocky (Jan 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> My opinion is Kisame wins.


Your opinion is wrong.

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 2


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Base Gai, Base Naruto, and Base Bee have all moved inside Waterdome. Troy can finally let go of his water dome hype.



Water prison
Not water dome


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2017)

I think we need to all stop being a little mean 

It's obvious he new at this 

I mean when one makes up stuff like you can't move in water prison despite scans of 2 different characters moving all in 1 page 

You would tbink a kisame fan would bother to read the manga

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ayala (Jan 11, 2017)

Those water prisons are weak for real,which is strange. The people inside it, which includes scrubs like the lightning village ninja, are moving inside it with no trouble at all, even wrestling with sharks.

Zabuza's water PRISON held Kakashi still, and the same Kisame's water prisons were holding still Gai's team with no trouble.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> It's how they manage to get "away with a lot of things" that the very same people debating it wouldn't allow for other characters, just because of the Title. Things like avoiding genjutsu just because they are sannin or taking feats extremely for granted because they are Sanni (Tsunade outpacing V2 lightened Ei was a thing, because she's a Sannin and is not surprising or Manda beating 8th gated Gai).



Who does this that does not also do that for other high rank characters?




> Truth be told, Sannin is a title earned because they survived fighting Hanzo .



We have been over this before.

If the title were merely for surviving Hanzo then Chiyo and Mifune would have been granted such titles, too.

The Sannin survived because Hanzo let them. The reason Hanzo titled those pre-Sannin Sannin is because he knew that if they lived they would eventually be feared globally, and he was presented with a chance to have that future renown associated with himself.

Hanzo titled the pre-Sannin the Sannin. It was due to their later battlefield deeds that they became the Sannin "of Legend".



> And to be honest, featwise, some Akatsuki has done more (or other characters) than the Sannin in their own especiality.



If by "some Akatsuki" you mean Nagato, Obito, and Itachi.



> Nor i think they are "far above" Kisame either. Not part 2 Kisame, at least.



Part 1 and part 2 Kisame are the same character. Itachi simply advised Kisame against using the large scale Suiton in part 1 so they didn't attract more ninja.

Reactions: Like 7


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## LostSelf (Jan 11, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Who does this that does not also do that for other high rank characters?



What do you mean? Not everybody, to be honest. But the Title somehow enables crazy feats-



FlamingRain said:


> We have been over this before.
> 
> If the title were merely for surviving Hanzo then Chiyo and Mifune would have been granted such titles, too.
> 
> ...



Chiyo wasn't known as a Sannin simply because Hanzo didn't name her a Sannin. If Kisame, Deidara, Kakuzu, etc where there teaming up, they would've been Sannin. Unless you tell me someone like Deidara, with 19 years old almost matching 50 years old Tsunade was not gifted.That's the thing. Nobody says they were not gifted nor the title is shit. But it's overrated. Can't find much proof now, but great examples are their legends being above post war Kakashi just because they are Sannin.

When post war Kakashi fought Kaguya and lead the two saviors and was flattered by Harogromo, making his legend way above the Sannin.We can say the same about 8th gated Gai. or the fact that Jiraiya, Orochimaru and Tsunade will avoid Itachi's generic Sharingan genjutsu because "They are Sannin", despite Genjutsu being portrayed as harder to fight against or avoid. Not everybody is like this, though.

But mostly .



FlamingRain said:


> If by "some Akatsuki" you mean Nagato, Obito, and Itachi.



In their own especiality? No. Deidara's C4 can match perfectly Tsunade's Byakugo, for example. Deidara's especiality are that. Kisame's abilities can get to be as haxxed as well, depending on the chakra of the opponent. The three you mentioned are perfectly above them, i didn't count them.



FlamingRain said:


> Part 1 and part 2 Kisame are the same character. Itachi simply advised Kisame against using the large scale Suiton in part 1 so they didn't attract more ninja.



I think Kishi is a man that retcons. Because i saw Kisame having no troubles to fight Killer Bee, who matches any Sannin here. 

(Poor Kisame is being dwarfed by a completely different debate.)


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## FlamingRain (Jan 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> What do you mean? Not everybody, to be honest.



If you don't see it from more than like 2 or 3 posters how much is it really worth pointing out?






> Chiyo wasn't known as a Sannin simply because Hanzo didn't name her a Sannin.



That isn't what I was saying.

It doesn't matter if the Akatsuki were more powerful than those three at the time they battled Hanzo. That wasn't why Hanzo gave them the title. Hanzo gave them the title because he saw potential in them.

The Sannin are revered for their post-Hanzo accomplishments, not for Hanzo deciding to spare them. Hanzo knew they could be, and so spared the Sannin.

The Kakashi example isn't analogous to the Sannin example, because Kakashi didn't retain those abilities.



> In their own especiality? No. Deidara's C4 can match perfectly Tsunade's Byakugo, for example. Deidara's especiality are that. Kisame's abilities can get to be as haxxed as well, depending on the chakra of the opponent. The three you mentioned are perfectly above them, i didn't count them.



You're speaking specific matchups, when you ought to be considering general threat level to the Narutoverse at large.

C4 can "match" the level that Sozo Saisei operates at, but what does that have to do with Tsunade compared to Deidara in an overall sense? You realize Tsunade has more than one way to beat a no-intel Deidara, and if Tsunade had info on C4 could simply hold her breath and not have to waste any Chakra countering the Jutsu with Sozo Saisei (Obito specifically stated C4 worked if breathed and that would be why the trees were unaffected).

Most high tiers do not battle the way Bee does, so Kisame shined during that event in a way that he wouldn't have against most ninja in or around that league.



> I think Kishi is a man that retcons. Because i saw Kisame having no troubles to fight Killer Bee, who matches any Sannin here.
> 
> (Poor Kisame is being dwarfed by a completely different debate.)



Bee more than matches any Sannin, but see above. Kisame isn't on the tier Bee is on, it was simply due to matchup and circumstances that Kisame had an advantage against Bee.

There was no retcon there.

Reactions: Like 4


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## LostSelf (Jan 12, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> If you don't see it from more than like 2 or 3 posters how much is it really worth pointing out?



That's not two or three posters. Of course i won't start calling names, everyone has their own opinion and that's to be respected. But it's the majority.



FlamingRain said:


> That isn't what I was saying.
> 
> It doesn't matter if the Akatsuki were more powerful than those three at the time they battled Hanzo. That wasn't why Hanzo gave them the title. Hanzo gave them the title because he saw potential in them.
> 
> ...



Then we agree any Akatsuki would've been Sannin had they been there. Now, aside from Jiraiya and Sage Mode, no Sannin feat (Considering we have a lot off-panel from them) we've seen makes the Akatsuki look like fools. Nor out of their league. I hate giving examples, because we are going away from my point, wich is the title allowing for stuff they haven't shown to do (Jiraiya seemingly fighting the 6 Paths of Pain with an arm at full power, yet, Fukusaku not knowing shit about Shinra Tensei. Tsunade avoiding 5 giant Susano'o's genjutsu actively. The very same people can be the first to call Gai surprising Juudara in the 7th gate bullshit. When the three (or Tsunade and Gai's example) can be the ilogical ones. With the exception that Gai did it on panel, in a sequence, and nothing indicated Gai cannot be that fast. In the genjutsu side, it has been implied you just can't avoid it not looking. But Gai doesn't have the Sannin Shield to help his feats.

And it doesn't matter if he didn't retain those abilities. The legend is still there.



FlamingRain said:


> You're speaking specific matchups, when you ought to be considering general threat level to the Narutoverse at large.
> 
> C4 can "match" the level that Sozo Saisei operates at, but what does that have to do with Tsunade compared to Deidara in an overall sense? You realize Tsunade has more than one way to beat a no-intel Deidara, and if Tsunade had info on C4 could simply hold her breath and not have to waste any Chakra countering the Jutsu with Sozo Saisei (Obito specifically stated C4 worked if breathed and that would be why the trees were unaffected).
> 
> Most high tiers do not battle the way Bee does, so Kisame shined during that event in a way that he wouldn't have against most ninja in or around that league.



I didn't talk about specific matchups. C4 can take out anyone Tsunade can take out without knowledge. And to be honest, Tsunade being a Sannin like Jiraiya is what makes most people believe she beats Deidara. Considering, featwise, she can't prevent him from going airborne either. Unless he dicks around like with Sai. I don't think holding your breath works. Or curious Sasuke didn't think about it. 



FlamingRain said:


> Bee more than matches any Sannin, but see above. Kisame isn't on the tier Bee is on, it was simply due to matchup and circumstances that Kisame had an advantage against Bee.
> 
> There was no retcon there.



I don't see it exactly as only a bad matchup with Bee alone. If we're going to take statements (specially self statements), Kisame talked how the stronger his enemy, the stronger he gets. Of course, one won't believe he can beat Pain, but any chakra battery for him should make him more powerful. Jiraiya is kind of weird because of sage chakra, even tough sage chakra in ninjutsu can be absorbed.

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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> That's not two or three posters. Of course i won't start calling names, everyone has their own opinion and that's to be respected. But it's the majority.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


But if 7G gai was fast enough to tango with juudara how was he so beat up against ET Madara who is several tiers below juudara


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## Sapherosth (Jan 12, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Those water prisons are weak for real,which is strange. The people inside it, which includes scrubs like the lightning village ninja, are moving inside it with no trouble at all, even wrestling with sharks.
> 
> Zabuza's water PRISON held Kakashi still, and the same Kisame's water prisons were holding still Gai's team with no trouble.





Simple - It's a water prison with no one reinforcing it. It was simply a trap inside a scroll. 

A shark could swim inside it casually.

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## Ayala (Jan 12, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Simple - It's a water prison with no one reinforcing it. It was simply a trap inside a scroll.
> 
> A shark could swim inside it casually.



That makes sense, good eyes


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## FlamingRain (Jan 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> That's not two or three posters. Of course i won't start calling names, everyone has their own opinion and that's to be respected. But it's the majority.



Then you can see why it looks like you fabricated that whole thing about Sannin supporters.



> Then we agree any Akatsuki would've been Sannin had they been there. Now, aside from Jiraiya and Sage Mode, no Sannin feat (Considering we have a lot off-panel from them) we've seen makes the Akatsuki look like fools. Nor out of their league.



We don't agree about the Akatsuki being Sannin if they were there. That's why I pointed out Chiyo, who was able to battle Hanzo multiple times and live to tell the tale, and Mifune, who only barely lost to Hanzo in a clash of ninja tools. Being stronger than the pre-Sannin doesn't get someone a title from Hanzo, or else Chiyo and Mifune would have them.

Hanzo had the foresight to predict that the Sannin would go on to become legendary ninja were they to live through the event, and so let them live with a name to associate his own fame with theirs and spread his reputation further.

You don't like the examples because the examples you bring up are easy to address. Something happening off panel doesn't mean it didn't happen. We know that Jiraiya fought those 6 paths because Jiraiya, Fukasaku, and Kakashi said it, and the point of Madara pointing out a 5 to 1 condition with each village champion being spread out was for us to take note that each of them primarily occupied those 5 Susano'o, which were repeatedly shown aiming for kill-shots, themselves.




> And it doesn't matter if he didn't retain those abilities. The legend is still there.



The difference between Kakashi and the Sannin is that the Sannin could still back up the reputations they had built up where Kakashi no longer wielded the Six Paths Chakra or even Sharingan.



> I didn't talk about specific matchups. C4 can take out anyone Tsunade can take out without knowledge. And to be honest, Tsunade being a Sannin like Jiraiya is what makes most people believe she beats Deidara. Considering, featwise, she can't prevent him from going airborne either. Unless he dicks around like with Sai. I don't think holding your breath works. Or curious Sasuke didn't think about it.



I'm up for debating the chances of Tsunade defeating Deidara, but I'll do that in another post.

Sasuke did not have info on C4, and thus the example is inconsequential.



> I don't see it exactly as only a bad matchup with Bee alone. If we're going to take statements (specially self statements), Kisame talked how the stronger his enemy, the stronger he gets. Of course, one won't believe he can beat Pain, but any chakra battery for him should make him more powerful. Jiraiya is kind of weird because of sage chakra, even tough sage chakra in ninjutsu can be absorbed.



Kisame is referring to the strength of the Chakra of another ninja. Fighting styles are still important, especially at that level.

None of the Sannin battle like Bee does.

I wouldn't even mention Sage Mode. I think Jiraiya could beat Kisame in base, with revealed abilities (and so could the other two).

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## Rocky (Jan 12, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I don't see it exactly as only a bad matchup with Bee alone.


Bee is literally a wrestler that wears chakra armor. When v1 didn't work, Bee tried beating Samehada by running into it with even more chakra on than the first time. Moreover, Bee didn't use Bijū Mode on Kisame _and_ he had to babysit two fodders during the fight. It was a very advantageous situation for Kisame.

Just look at their portrayal in the story. Orochimaru killed Konoha's Hokage (after off-paneling the Kazekage), Tsunade was a Hokage, and Jiraiya had a competitive, climactic battle with Kisame's boss. You see Kisame doing any of that stuff? Kisame has the potential to surpass the Sannin by absorbing enough chakra, but he doesn't start that way, and he would never actually get there against any of the Sannin in battle because they aren't walking chakra buffets.

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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2017)

Rusty Tsunade
Base Jiraiya
Orochimaru (no Edos)
And

Full knowledge for Kisame
No knowledge for Sannin
100 meter start distance
Kisame can definitely do some serious damage with these conditions. He can get his water sphere up and fuse with Samehada, then make Mizubunshin/1000 sharks. He drained the entire Hachibi in a few moments, so the Sannin and their summons would have 100% of their chakra drained virtually the instant Kisame's spine pierces them. And he's fast enough to do it. With 1000 sharks acting as distractions, he can likely do so safely and easily. 

The Sannin also don't have a lot of options to put Kisame down when he has full knowledge on their jutsu. Most of what _might_ work in normal battles _won't_ work when Kisame has full knowledge i.e. Tsunade won't get the chance to land sucker punches, Orochimaru won't get the chance to use blood toxins, Kisame won't drain sage chakra and turn to stone, etc.

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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2017)

Rocky said:


> Moreover, Bee didn't use Bijū Mode on Kisame _and_ he had to babysit two fodders during the fight. It was a very advantageous situation for Kisame.



Kisame was aiming to capture and Bee was aiming to kill. Biju Mode also would not have helped against Kisame, as it trades speed and power for the ability to use the TBB. That, however, can be beaten with Daikoden. But Kisame didn't even need his ultimate jutsu. Saying the fight was advantageous to Kisame is silly. It's like people saying Gaara vs Deidara was biased to Deidara..



Rocky said:


> Just look at their portrayal in the story. Orochimaru killed Konoha's Hokage (after off-paneling the Kazekage)



Kisame was partnered with the guy that paneled Orochimaru at age 11.



Rocky said:


> Tsunade was a Hokage



She was made Hokage after being soloed by Orochimaru's stooge and saved by a Genin with a broken leg.



Rocky said:


> and Jiraiya had a competitive, climactic battle with Kisame's boss.



If you call running away from the 3 weakest bodies and begging your summons to use genjutsu "competitive." Jiraiya also got his ass beat by a brain-dead KN4, so 'portrayal-wise' he'd stand no chance against Bee's v2.



Rocky said:


> You see Kisame doing any of that stuff?



Kisame was part of Akatsuki, an organization of Kage level criminals that hunted tailed beasts. Tailed beasts being creatures that wrecked entire villages (Suna, Kumo, and Konoha) and killed scores of ninja even when the Kage and subordinates teamed up against them. Kisame was known for having the greatest stamina in Akatsuki, to include the man that soloed armies, leveled villages, and made mini moons. Yet somehow NF thinks > Nagato in stamina means Kisame can't use his big jutsu that were smaller than Nagato's.

Basically, the only reason people believe Kisame is "below" Jiraiya is based on the ambiguity in his statement in part one according to NF fan translators. The official translation indicates he was talking about the Kyubi, as does the context of the page (Sasuke is thinking about the Kyubi inside Naruto on the very same page spread) as does common sense (Itachi isn't "stalemating" base Jiraiya with more back when Jiraiya got his ass pounded by Orochimaru even though Orochimaru was doubleteamed. The Kyubi actually had the hype.)

Kisame was _never_ below the Sannin or Kage, only Itachi. And Itachi was portrayed as being on the level of the Kyubi and Sasuke's "Yondaime," a level above the Sannin or normal Kage. Itachi himself said that Sasuke/Obito were the only living people that could _potentially_ beat him, so I don't know why people assume he said something 100% contradictory to Kisame a few chapters later, about someone that Orochimaru thoroughly de-hyped as being even Orochimaru's equal.

Akatsuki was introduced as an organization of S-rank bijuu hunters that Orochimaru had been a member of but that he was kicked out of by Itachi. All the members were therefore implied to be around Orochimaru's classification strength, with Itachi and the Leader being notable exceptions of being a level above (Itachi being stated in DB2 to having ulterior/counter motives to the AL.) It wasn't until part two that some weakling members came out, but the author stated that was more due to a time constraint than his actual intent (speaking of Hidan here.) They were all _intended _to be genuine Tsunade-Jiraiya-Orochimaru levels.

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## Troyse22 (Jan 13, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Rusty Tsunade
> Base Jiraiya
> Orochimaru (no Edos)
> And
> ...




So do you think Kisame wins this scenario?



Sadgoob said:


> Kisame was aiming to capture and Bee was aiming to kill. Biju Mode also would not have helped against Kisame, as it trades speed and power for the ability to use the TBB. That, however, can be beaten with Daikoden. But Kisame didn't even need his ultimate jutsu. Saying the fight was advantageous to Kisame is silly. It's like people saying Gaara vs Deidara was biased to Deidara..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I don't agree with Kisame being below Itachi. In part 1? Absolutely. We saw nothing besides some lower ranked Suiton and Samehada from Kisame at this point.

But in p2 it's clear Kisame is above Itachi.


I really enjoyed your analysis though.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 13, 2017)

Yeah, I only say that because Kisame says "With *your* power..." and the DB2 highlights that he's extra docile and in awe of Itachi. However, the DB2 also says that it wasn't "for sure" who was stronger between Itachi and Kisame, which is a hell of a lot more than you can say for Orochimaru:



> For Akatsuki's mission, *Kisame travels together with Itachi, but at times he
> shows unexpected docileness towards him. Is it from loyalty to the organization
> and comrades or is it from the fact that Itachi's power surpasses his own? Only
> he himself knows the truth.*
> ...



And I agree that by feats part two Kisame can beat Itachi in certain situations, with much of the same logic I used to say he could beat the Sannin in certain circumstances. Daikoden is an amazing anti-Susano'o jutsu (the Yata Mirror may block though,) and clones and the water dome make him very hard to pin down while he denies his opponents mobility/oxygen.

Also I found this for Rocky, asking what Kisame has done:



> Every nation's intelligence keeps a "Bingo Book" where they record particulars
> of observation of dangerous ninjas. Despite being in this, *Kisame commits many
> large crimes such as* daimyo killing *and village destruction*. It is recorded that
> you should exercise special caution around him, as he is an "S Rank Principal
> ...



Kisame literally solos countries and villages, as well as tailed beasts. That's more than I can say for most Kage in terms of hype.

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## Rocky (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Biju Mode also would not have helped against Kisame, as it trades speed and power for the ability to use the TBB. That, however, can be beaten with Daikoden.


It trades speed for _more_ power and the ability to use Bijūdama. Since Kisame can't absorb a giant fist like he could a chakra shroud, I'm gonna go ahead and assume Bijū Mode would have helped. 


Sadgoob said:


> Kisame was partnered with the guy that paneled Orochimaru at age 11.


But Kisame was Itachi's lapdog.


Sadgoob said:


> She was made Hokage after being soloed by Orochimaru's stooge and saved by a Genin with a broken leg.


Until Creation Rebirth happed. 


Sadgoob said:


> If you call running away from the 3 weakest bodies and begging your summons to use genjutsu "competitive."


Imo, Preta Path is the second strongest body and Animal Path is tied with Asura Path for third. Regardless, genjutsu was the plan because Jiraiya didn't know that each body could only use one power. Once he figured that out, he was able to fight back adequately.  


Sadgoob said:


> They were all _intended _to be genuine Tsunade-Jiraiya-Orochimaru levels.


But Hidan. Konan. Kakuzu's fodder partners. Etc. The Akatsuki were a bunch mercenaries used by the villages. Their title is not equal to the Sannin. After Pain beat Young J, Zetsu (who is in the fucking Akatsuki) had a conversation with himself that really tells it all:

White Zetsu (to Pain): "Wow, took you long enough."

Black Zetsu: "He was fighting Jiraiya of the Legendary Three. What the fuck did you expect?"

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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

Rocky said:


> It trades speed for _more_ power and the ability to use Bijūdama. Since Kisame can't absorb a giant fist like he could a chakra shroud, I'm gonna go ahead and assume Bijū Mode would have helped.



v2 hits harder. It's a compression of bijuu chakra in a smaller form. When ninja compress chakra in their fists (Tsunade, Sakura) instead of evenly throughout their body, they hit harder. This is also why v2 is much more durable. v2 is also much faster.



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> But Hidan. Konan. Kakuzu's fodder partners. Etc. The Akatsuki were a bunch mercenaries used by the villages. Their title is not equal to the Sannin.



I already told you that Kishi pointblank said that he intended to give Hidan more jutsu but that time did not permit the development. This would likely bolster Hidan's standings just like Konan's second showing vastly bolstered hers (nearly killing Obito.) But more to the point, Jiraiya says it all himself when informing Kakashi about Akatsuki:

Jiraiya: *"That organization is made up of 9 shinobi... and they're all S-class criminals. A single S-class criminal is already hard to deal with... and Itachi is also with them..."*

Like I said before, every Akatsuki member (as foreshadowed in part one) was implied to be on Jiraiya's level, as he himself stated that *one* S-class criminal is hard for him to deal with i.e. he'll generally have difficulty killing just one. Kisame was also specifically stated in the databook to have destroyed villages and countries by himself.

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## Duhul10 (Jan 14, 2017)

People still don't realize the reason why Jiraiya retreated  .
When you see 3 rinnegan users, you retreat . Jiraiya had no idea about the extent of their power at that moment. When he figured out they only had 1 power, he procedeed to kick their asses in a minute in a corridor. After getting sucker punched he continued to put up a fight against all the 6 of them ( albeit with Deva probably not revealling his powers ) and even killing animal a second time, without having acces to a great deal of his sage jutsus. Also, it seems that Fukasaku knew who was the one able to revive the others, which means that possibly Jiraiya killed even more of them.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Where in the DB is it mentioned that kisame can destroy countries ?

You tbink V2 hits harder than bijuu Mode when the simple act of spinning levels the entire forest something V2 could never achieve 

V2 is a far weaker battle form than bijuu mode itself 

@Sadgoob


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## FlamingRain (Jan 14, 2017)

Jiraiya was speaking to Kakashi in general terms. It wasn't to place the Akatsuki members on a similar level. That much can be easily seen by how swiftly Jiraiya cornered Kisame in part 1 and Konan in part 2- in base.

Besides, Kisame could not get off scot free against Kakashi. Oro Chakra-crushed Kakashi and walked off laughing.

It was also clear Tsunade was at a much higher level than Kabuto when Kabuto, thrice indicated to be as powerful as Kakashi, fled for miles and ingested ninja steroids before approaching an out of shape Tsunade, despite simply needing to score brief taps to counter the enormous physical strength Tsunade wielded (if Kabuto needed to stack advantages like that to pull that off, Tsunade could be reasonably assumed to have been able to emerge scot free otherwise) .

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Where in the DB is it mentioned that kisame can destroy countries ?



I quoted the passage. It's in Kisame's profile in DB2.



Icegaze said:


> You tbink V2 hits harder than bijuu Mode when the simple act of spinning levels the entire forest something V2 could never achieve



We've seen the Hachibi whack ninja with its tail and they were fine. Force is divided by the area of contact. That's why swords are effective weapons, because it concentrates force into a small point. v2 jinchuriki strike with a bijuu's force in a small fist, hence it goes right through chests instead of a tail just knocking them backwards.



Icegaze said:


> V2 is a far weaker battle form than bijuu  mode itself



It is not. We saw Yugito and Gaara use full bijuu transformation and they were easily defeated. We also know that fodder Yondaime Kazekage beat Shukaku, Deidara owned Sanbi, Sage Naruto was tossing Kurama around, etc. Full tailed beasts are _*not* _unilaterally more impressive than v2 jinchurikis. (IMO Sage Naruto would get skullfucked by KN6.) v2 jinchuriki are massively faster, massively more durable, and concentrate strength into blows that go right though chests. They were just retconned to not have TBB.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> v2 hits harder. It's a compression of bijuu chakra in a smaller form. When ninja compress chakra in their fists (Tsunade, Sakura) instead of evenly throughout their body, they hit harder. This is also why v2 is much more durable. v2 is also much faster.




Very interesting. I never thought about it quite like that.



Yeah the whole Bee knocking down trees thing is hugely overrated. Didn't Orochimaru kick down a tree? And the dude has like NO strength hype.

Didn't V1 Naruto level a football stadium sized area of forest with a single punch?


Knocking down trees or hell, even leveling a forest is not something impressive, as most high tiers with decent DC can achieve it.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah the whole Bee knocking down trees thing is hugely overrated. Didn't Orochimaru kick down a tree? And the dude has like NO strength hype.



Bro, don't even get me started on strength being overhyped. All mid level ninja and up are superhumanly strong. An injured Genin with 3.0 strength (less than sick Itachi) can effortlessly rip giant trees out of the ground with one hand:

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2017)

All three Sanin would Low/Neg Diff Kisame under normal circumstances. Jiriaya would have in-fact cannonically done so with Toad Stomach, if Itachi wasn't around to save his ass. Putting circumstances in Kisame's favor will likely allow him to give Orochimaru, Tsunade, and Base-Jiraiya a decent fight, but he is still completely outclassed by SM-Jiriaya. And it's pretty ludicrous to me to suggest that Jiraiya can't reach SM, he has Toad Gourd Barrier Seal, which even Pain-Rikudo could not break into, so the idea that Kisame somehow can is just ridiculous.

And all 3 Sannin Combined murder Kisame.

Reactions: Like 7 | Dislike 1


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## Suoh (Jan 14, 2017)

Against all three he gets stomped. In 3 individual and neutral matches he can put up a good fight against Jiraiya, loses mid diff to Oro and i would favor him against Tsunade high/extreme diff

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Daikoden is an amazing anti-Susano'o jutsu (the Yata Mirror may block though,)



Yata Mirror will not block Daikodan. Yata is comprised of chakra, Daikodan absorbs chakra and grows stronger in proportion to the chakra absorbed. It absorbs Yata, Susanoo and would one shot Itachi.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yata Mirror will not block Daikodan. Yata is comprised of chakra, Daikodan absorbs chakra and grows stronger in proportion to the chakra absorbed. It absorbs Yata, Susanoo and would one shot Itachi.



 Or it alters its properties and absorbs Daikodan instead.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2017)

Itachi would beat Kisame with Genjutsu before Daikodan becomes a thing, there is a several tier gap between them.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Itachi would beat Kisame with Genjutsu before Daikodan becomes a thing, there is a several tier gap between them.



Kisame had the advantage of working alongside Itachi for years. He knows how his genjutsu is applied and how to avoid getting caught.

He stays underwater and bombards Itachi endlessly with Suiton and outlasts him.


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## Turrin (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame had the advantage of working alongside Itachi for years. He knows how his genjutsu is applied and how to avoid getting caught.
> 
> He stays underwater and bombards Itachi endlessly with Suiton and outlasts him.


Sorry, but i'm not going to bother discussing this with someone who thinks Kisame can beat Pain or all 3 Sannin at once. If you want me to have a serious discussion with you stop trolling. Kisame is the man who struggled with Roshi, get real son.

If you want to say Kisame due to type match up and circumstance may be able to beat Itachi, I'll entertain that discussion, but first you need to get real about Kisame's actual level, which is tiers beneath Itachi and others.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Sorry, but i'm not going to bother discussing this with someone who thinks Kisame can beat Pain or all 3 Sannin at once. If you want me to have a serious discussion with you stop trolling. Kisame is the man who struggled with Roshi, get real son.



Concession accepted.



Turrin said:


> If you want to say Kisame due to type match up and circumstance may be able to beat Itachi, I'll entertain that discussion, but first you need to *get real about Kisame's actual level, which is tiers beneath Itachi and others.*



Lol'd at bold.

Reactions: Dislike 3


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## Icegaze (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> I quoted the passage. It's in Kisame's profile in DB2.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My bad sorry I didn't know you did 
Oh wow didn't know that was said about kisame 

Scans of ninja hachibi whacked with his tail
The only one I remember was clad in V3 susanoo 

Ok V2 is the basic equivalent of Bm naruto without kurama avatar 

Do you believe BM naruto hits harder without his avatar ? 

We have also seen hachibi slap back 5th tail with its fist 

V2 has no feats of doing such 

They could have been retconed
But that was for kishi to highlight that full bijuu are more powerful 

We see this when 5th goes full bijuu mode and immediately naruto and bee are put at odds 

In fact why on earth would obito have them go full bijuu mode when they were already in V2 ? If it wasn't to make them more overwhelming


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## Serene Grace (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lol'd at bold.


Hmm You say Kisame had the advantage of working alongside Itachi for years and how he knows how his genjutsu is applied and how to avoid getting caught, but then you disregard Kisame admitting inferiority to Itachi? Kisame knew everything about Itachi's abilities, yet he *still *admit *inferiority,* so I'm not sure how that could happen and, you still think he's superior to Itachi. I'm interested in what you have to say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Hmm You say Kisame had the advantage of working alongside Itachi for years and how he knows how his genjutsu is applied and how to avoid getting caught, but then you disregard Kisame admitting inferiority to Itachi? Kisame knew everything about Itachi's abilities, yet he *still *admit *inferiority,* so I'm not sure how that could happen and, you still think he's superior to Itachi. I'm interested in what you have to say.


retconned by him low diffing a perfect jin

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> In fact why on earth would obito have them go full bijuu mode when they were already in V2 ? If it wasn't to make them more overwhelming



To use TBB. It's a more overwhelming ninjutsu offense, but they're far slower, less durable, and have less concentrated strength. The difference in strength is like comparing Manda's strength (full bijuu) to Tsunade's strength (v2,) for example. The concentrated blows are often more effective even though Manda is better at changing landscape.



Icegaze said:


> Do you believe BM naruto hits harder without his avatar?



The Kurama avatar is unlike all other bijuu modes. A more appropriate question is if I believe BM Naruto hits harder than the Kyubi in its natural beast form. Yes, I believe that. BM Naruto is much stronger than SM Naruto, and we saw SM Naruto tossing the Kyubi around. BM Naruto is also much faster than Kurama and overall much better & more dangerous IMO.



Troyse22 said:


> Yata Mirror will not block Daikodan. Yata is comprised of chakra.



No Yata is purely a spirit weapon with no physical form, something Black Zetsu clarified as being a supernatural item and not a chakra technique. Chakra is the combination of spirit (ethereal) and body (physical) while Yata is purely ethereal. The Yata is also clearly said to be able to block any jutsu by changing all of its properties.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> No Yata is purely a spirit weapon with no physical form, something Black Zetsu clarified as being a supernatural item and not a chakra technique. Chakra is the combination of spirit (ethereal) and body (physical) while Yata is purely ethereal. The Yata is also clearly said to be able to block any jutsu by changing all of its properties.




It's comprised of all 5 Chakra nature's, nothing else is stated about what Yata was made of.

If it was made of something else, Kishi would have made it known


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> retconned by him low diffing a perfect jin



You know me so well <3

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You know me so well <3


tbh I can see Kisame winning against Itachi if circumstances are at his advantage.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You know me so well <3


So you ignore me, again? OK.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> So you ignore me, again? OK.



Wait where did I ignore u lol.



PhantomSage said:


> tbh I can see Kisame winning against Itachi if circumstances are at his advantage.



Example?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Example?


A location which is predominantly composed of water would likely give Kisame a better chance at victory due to the fact that Itachi's mobility would be significantly hindered while Kisame would be able to amp his jutsu up with the surrounding water.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's comprised of all 5 Chakra nature's, nothing else is stated about what Yata was made of.
> 
> If it was made of something else, Kishi would have made it known



Kishi's words:



"Sacred weapons," "Spirit Weapons," "Repel any attack," "all ninjutsu lose their meaning."



"Spirit weapon," "change every one of its properties"



"Spirit weapons," "turn back any attack," "completely invincible"

It's never called chakra or ninjutsu, but an actual spirit weapon.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


>



That doesn't disprove my point though.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Not sure how you didn't get the notif.



Doesn't matter if Kisame admitted inferiority to Itachi in p1. Much occured from that point on that puts Kisame above Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> A location which is predominantly composed of water would likely give Kisame a better chance at victory due to the fact that Itachi's mobility would be significantly hindered while Kisame would be able to amp his jutsu up with the surrounding water.



Kisame can spit up an ocean no matter where he is.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Kisame can spit up an ocean no matter where he is.


An ocean + an ocean > an ocean

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> An ocean + an ocean > an ocean



Kisame casually pukes up ocean sized quantitys of water in moments.

By that measure...Do you think unrestricted Kisame with manga knowledge beats Itachi?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Like what? Get stomped by seven gates guy..twice, beat a restricted killer bee at high-extereme difficulty, Barely beating Roshi?




Not going to address you if you're just going to be an obnoxious dou....Jerk.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame casually pukes up ocean sized quantitys of water in moments.


No, not literally an ocean sized amount. lol, by that measure, if he could casually do it, he'd flood the entire world.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> No, not literally an ocean sized amount. lol, by that measure, if he could casually do it, he'd flood the entire world.



Okay I'm guilty of exageration, but he does puke up large lake sized bodies of water for virtually every Battle


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> retconned by him low diffing a perfect jin



 Not really. From a superficial standpoint, it seems better when in all actuality, Kisame's performances pivot on the amount of chakra he can receive from his opponent.


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> To use TBB. It's a more overwhelming ninjutsu offense, but they're far slower, less durable, and have less concentrated strength. The difference in strength is like comparing Manda's strength (full bijuu) to Tsunade's strength (v2,) for example. The concentrated blows are often more effective even though Manda is better at changing landscape.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



100% kyuubi got better strength feats than BM naruto though
Kyuubi being able to be thrown by SM naruto means it's light enough to be lifted it has little to do with the strength it can exert when striking a foe 

Hachibi demonstrated more overwhelming strength than V2 bee in fact so much so even before thinking of using BD he opted for hachibi mode Vs going V2

As Did he against kisame V2 was to not damage the area so much and to restrict himself 

Think kishi went out of his way here to show full bijuu mode is well above V2 which is just using some bijuu chakra 

As to striking harder we saw what 5th tail did to hachibi in full bijuu mode and how easily goku tossed bee around 

Neither of those beats managed to do that in V2

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jan 16, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> Then you can see why it looks like you fabricated that whole thing about Sannin supporters.



Give me one reason why i would waste time fabricating things not true about fictional characters with arguments made by people i like? There's no reason. I just won't say names even if you believe me or not.

About the examples of Jiraiya, me liking it or not is irrelevant (I'm neutral with that). Fighting the 6 paths of Pain doesn't mean Deva used his powers. Otherwise, Fukusaku would've known about Deva's powers. Nobody knew. 

I would continue debating everything if you like. Quoted the first thing because you actually know me better (or i thought) than someone with a hate over a character (especially because i actually like Jiraiya and Tsunade) to create false information. And to apologize for not replying soon, work has me away from NFs.



Rocky said:


> Bee is literally a wrestler that wears chakra armor. When v1 didn't work, Bee tried beating Samehada by running into it with even more chakra on than the first time. Moreover, Bee didn't use Bijū Mode on Kisame _and_ he had to babysit two fodders during the fight. It was a very advantageous situation for Kisame.
> 
> Just look at their portrayal in the story. Orochimaru killed Konoha's Hokage (after off-paneling the Kazekage), Tsunade was a Hokage, and Jiraiya had a competitive, climactic battle with Kisame's boss. You see Kisame doing any of that stuff? Kisame has the potential to surpass the Sannin by absorbing enough chakra, but he doesn't start that way, and he would never actually get there against any of the Sannin in battle because they aren't walking chakra buffets.



I see Kisame being Kage, why not? About him off-panelling Kazekage and Hiruzen that depends. Is Hiruzen to be treated with all his hype of being above Hashirama or we will resort to his part 1 feats? Because i don't see part 1 Hiruzen with feats beating Part 2 Kisame. I also wouldn't put them (Sannin) on the same level just because of a title. Orochimau is a prime example of a huge superiority over the other two with Edo Tensei.

Also, i _do _agree with the Sannin being above regular Akatsuki. I never denied that. My arguments is how the title is handled. And nobody can call me a liar when i bet we have seen Tsunade outpacing V2 Lightened Ei just because reasons. In fact, FR and i have debated this in the past.

Him saying i'm making things up doesn't fall into place.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 16, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> retconned by him low diffing a perfect jin


pretty sure it was "neg-dif"


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## FlamingRain (Jan 17, 2017)

> We have seen Tsunade outpacing V2 Lightened Ei just because reasons. In fact, FR and i have debated this in the past.





> Him saying i'm making things up doesn't fall into place.



The topic we debated was Tsunade outpacing Ohnoki, so...yeah, suspicious.

I've seen the claim you're referencing, but each time it was cited as a feat it was by the same few (or same one), not the majority of posters who often support the Sannin.

I'm inclined to think you're pulling a Jad and recalling things incorrectly out of a blind rage that people think more highly of a Sannin than Gai, intentionally or otherwise.


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## LostSelf (Jan 17, 2017)

FlamingRain said:


> The topic we debated was Tsunade outpacing Ohnoki, so...yeah, suspicious.
> 
> I've seen the claim you're referencing, but each time it was cited as a feat it was by the same few (or same one), not the majority of posters who often support the Sannin.
> 
> I'm inclined to think you're pulling a Jad and recalling things incorrectly out of a blind rage that people think more highly of a Sannin than Gai, intentionally or otherwise.



To be honest, i am not. You might've been saying she outpaced Onoki. The instance i'm speaking was a bit before, when everyone was assuming Tsunade outpaced V2 Lightened Ei. Like i said, with time, i can find you a looooot of out of the world stuff about it, if it's so hard to believe me. Do you remember the dodging 5 Susano'o clones genjutswhen logic dictates a pair of sharingans needed special measures way harder than "let's just avoid eye contact"?

But then again, i don't want to turn the thread into an attempt of "believe me nii-san". I actually don't care if you believe me or not. But if you want evidence, i can find it. Just give me a bit of time because my free time is short nowadays.

About Gai.... You nailed it. All this tantrum is a blind rage that seeks to prove Gai's superiority over the Sannin.

And i would've gotten away with it if it weren't for you meddling with my plans.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2017)

Sadgoob said:


> Kisame can spit up an ocean no matter where he is.



And gaara can grind sand no mater where he is 
Are you going to say gaara in a desert = gaara on open field ?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Blaze Release (Jan 17, 2017)

As usual, characters affiliated with konoha are being favoured over characters with no affiliation to konoha.
From what i have gathered many people resort to 'portrayal' when the character they back to be superior to another character's, feat is either roughly equal or in some cases inferior to the character they back. The term portrayal is overused and in many cases is nothing more than a members perception of the manga and nothing else.

Yes portrayal exists and can be used, however when said character has enough feats, portrayal becomes less of an argument to fall onto tbh.

Itachi whom has been portrayed in the manga, db and kisame himself to be superior to him. I believe under certain circumstances, he can either take Itachi to high diff and even win. So when i read statements such as the sannin defeat Kisame without much trouble and in base (Jiraiya), makes me wonder which manga people are reading.

Yes i agree that in normal circumstances. This being; sm jiraya, healthy oro (w/o) edo tensei and Tsunade will defeat Kisame with mid/high difficulty and he may pull off a high diff win against Tsunade. I do believe that under circumstances; like base jiraiya or sick orochimaru, i heavily favour Kisame to win these scenario's.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 17, 2017)

Ablaze said:


> As usual characters outside konoha are being favoured over characters from konoha.



What the fuck is this?

Gross.

Do you realize how disgustingly overestimated Minato currently is?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2018)

Ruh roh


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## Mithos (Jan 16, 2018)

Ablaze said:


> So when i read statements such as the sannin defeat Kisame without much trouble and in base (Jiraiya), makes me wonder which manga people are reading.



When people say things like this despite Kisame outright saying he's no match for the Sannin on-panel, then proceeding to almost die to (base) Jiraiya had it not been for Itachi, I wonder if people have actually read the manga...

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)



Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Mithos said:


> When people say things like this despite Kisame outright saying he's no match for the Sannin on-panel, then proceeding to almost die to (base) Jiraiya had it not been for Itachi, I wonder if people have actually read the manga...




When people say things like this despite later feats hype and portrayal invalidating his P1 statement, I wonder if people back actually read the manga

Reactions: Disagree 3


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)

Kisame gets destroyed so bad that its not even funny

Reactions: Agree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 16, 2018)

Kisame gets murderstomped neg diff. The fact that this is a thread and hasn't been locked is sad. Jiraiya is >>>>>Kisame alone, adding the other Sannin isnt even a competition

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)



Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Ruh roh


What the fuck is even the point of this


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## Maverick04 (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> When people say things like this despite later feats hype and portrayal invalidating his P1 statement, I wonder if people back actually read the manga


I agree with one thing..Kisame's power was definitely retconned in part 2..Coz I mean the dude was caught in a genjutsu by Kurenai but in Shippuden he wrecked Roshi and Killer Bee.. I'm gonna say that if Kisame goes 1v1 with any of the Sannins, then it won't be a one sided affair like most people say it would..Kisame would definitely give them a tough fight..Sannins won't get away unscathed..1v1 he can probably beat Tsunade.. And he definitely beats Base Jiraiya IMO.. Sage Jiraiya and Orochimaru are a different story altogether.. People tend to take Sage mode for granted..Jiraiya only used Sage mode because he was up against the legendary rinnegan.. If he tries to use Sage Mode against an opponent then it's already a high difficulty for him.. Same with Orochimaru..If he resorts to Edos or Hydra form then it's already high difficulty for him.. With that said I don't think it's fair to pit him up against all three of them at once.. That's some Nagato shit right there and I don't think Kisame is anywhere near that level..He's a solid High end Mid Kage tier shinobi at his best.. In this fight Kisame gets mauled


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)

@RahulPK04 Naruto who was said to have surpassed Kakashi fell for simple genjutsu from Itachi. 
Some people can be weak in genjutsu you know


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## Maverick04 (Jan 16, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> @RahulPK04 Naruto who was said to have surpassed Kakashi fell for simple genjutsu from Itachi.
> Some people can be weak in genjutsu you know



Yea..But Kurenai's Genjutsu was laughable and any Kage tier would've gotten out of it.. Whereas what Itachi used on Naruto was a Sharingan genjutsu which even Kage level shinobis struggle against

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## oiety (Jan 16, 2018)

necro'd


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)

RahulPK04 said:


> Yea..But Kurenai's Genjutsu was laughable and any Kage tier would've gotten out of it.. Whereas what Itachi used on Naruto was a Sharingan genjutsu which even Kage level shinobis struggle against


How was that jutsu laughable? She was a genjutsu master and kisame couldnot get out of that simple as that.
Breaking out of genjutsu is a chakra-control related thing.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> How was that jutsu laughable? She was a genjutsu master and kisame couldnot get out of that simple as that.
> Breaking out of genjutsu is a chakra-control related thing.




Didn't Kisame break out in seconds, as I believe the next panel with him showed him combating Asuma (I could be misremembering if so mb, at work right now so I can't go revisiting the fights lmao)


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Didn't Kisame break out in seconds, as I believe the next panel with him showed him combating Asuma (I could be misremembering if so mb, at work right now so I can't go revisiting the fights lmao)


Itachi reversed the jutsu on kurenai.  So her control over subjects was effectively lost.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> Itachi reversed the jutsu on kurenai.  So her control over subjects was effectively lost.




Itachi did so nearly instantly right? How does that translate to Kisame being permanently trapped?

Not really a fair assessment


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi did so nearly instantly right? How does that translate to Kisame being permanently trapped?
> 
> Not really a fair assessment


Itachi was shown using genjutsu reflection to trap kurenai in her jutsu.  Kisame was not shown doing anything before Itachi trapped kurenai.


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## Maverick04 (Jan 16, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> How was that jutsu laughable?


Two reasons:
Itachi himself considered the genjutsu low level
Secondly, all it took from Kurenai was a lip bite to get out of it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kai (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> When people say things like this despite later feats hype and portrayal invalidating his P1 statement, I wonder if people back actually read the manga


That's not what reading the manga means fam.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Professor83 said:


> Itachi was shown using genjutsu reflection to trap kurenai in her jutsu.  Kisame was not shown doing anything before Itachi trapped kurenai.




Itachi was shown flashing his Sharingan as soon as Kurenai used his genjutsu, indicating he broke it then, which was near instantly, correct?


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## Blaze Release (Jan 16, 2018)

Mithos said:


> When people say things like this despite Kisame outright saying he's no match for the Sannin on-panel, then proceeding to almost die to (base) Jiraiya had it not been for Itachi, I wonder if people have actually read the manga...



Meh, why not.
Please since you i do not read the manga, could you please upload me the pages were Kisame outright said he's no match for the sannins. Could you also link me to the pages were Kisame almost died agains't base jiraiya. I'm certain that these pages do not exist, if you read the manga from a neutral point of view.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Ablaze said:


> Meh, why not.
> Please since you i do not read the manga, could you please upload me the pages were Kisame outright said he's no match for the sannins. Could you also link me to the pages were Kisame almost died agains't base jiraiya. I'm certain that these pages do not exist, if you read the manga from a neutral point of view.




Kisame did admit inferiority in P1, retconned as of P2

Kisame under Itachi's orders got put in a position where he was in danger.

Both of these are canon facts.


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2018)

mods dont care anymore lolz
should have been locked ages ago. sannin stomp


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## Blaze Release (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame did admit inferiority in P1, retconned as of P2
> 
> Kisame under Itachi's orders got put in a position where he was in danger.
> 
> Both of these are canon facts.


This is an old thread and tbh i've lost interest, but ill say this as i feel like i've been repeating myself.
Kisame's judges his opponents strength based on hype/title.
He based that statement off the hype of the sannins and (not because he's seen any jiraiya's abilities)later compares the titles of the 3. It just so happens that it was jiraiya in question.

As for the toad stomach as i assume that is what you mean by dangerous position.
I cannot be bothered therefore ill copy and paste a post i made not long ago.



Ablaze said:


> Whilst i agree that orochimaru or the sannins in general are above kisame and majority of the akatsuki remembers with the exception of the 3 doujutsu users, i do not believe that they are so superior as to one shot them.
> Whilst  brings me to this notion that Jiraiya was about to one shot kisame if not for Itachi.
> Just because Itachi who was closer to the exist thus activated his jutsu first to escape doesn't mean that Kisame doesn't have a jutsu that can allow for his escape.
> 
> ...



Anyway i'm done here.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Ablaze said:


> This is an old thread and tbh i've lost interest, but ill say this as i feel like i've been repeating myself.
> Kisame's judges his opponents strength based on hype/title.
> He based that statement off the hype of the sannins and (not because he's seen any jiraiya's abilities)later compares the titles of the 3. It just so happens that it was jiraiya in question.
> 
> ...




K so why ask a question if you've lost interest?

Anyone sane and rational knows Kisame wasn't comparing their respective abilities, but their hype and titles, and too often is that confused with Kisame comparing his abilities vs Jiraiyas

Although Jiraiya canonically defeated JJ Obito, so he's Superior


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2018)

As i recall troy kisame defeated kishi himself so truth be told that  version of kisame stomps these guys. some before they can even react.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2018)

Icegaze said:


> As i recall troy kisame defeated kishi himself so truth be told that  version of kisame stomps these guys. some before they can even react.



Kisame doesn't have any significant on panel Shunshin feats, he can't blitz any Kage level without merging with Samehada underwater imo


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## Hi no Ishi (Jan 16, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> To be a threat to Kisame, Jiraiya needs to get into SM, which would be next to impossible in this battle.


You know that's not even kind of true. 
This downplay is odd. 


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame casually handles Oro with Water Prison, this should effectively drown


Like what is this? You really try to complain about me downplaying people and say this? Like everyone is always standing there watching Kisame for some reason lol


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame can handle Tsunade. His reactionary feats have proven himself faster than Tsunade's punches and kicks. She also has a very linear and predictable line of attack, something Kisame can casually handle. Even if Tsunade lands a punch or a kick, Kisame will tank without a doubt. Tsunade doesn't possess V2 Jinchuuriki or Hirudora levels of power.


Surviving a hit from someone not trying to kill you and surviving a hit that can turn someone in armor into pink mist are not the same.


Troyse22 said:


> Jiraiya is then dealt with pretty easily based on the location and knowledge stipulations.


How?


Troyse22 said:


> Katsuyu is non factor in a salt-water environment.


Why? 


Troyse22 said:


> Manda cannot swim, so he'd drown.


Since when?



Troyse22 said:


> He was still conscious and taunting Bee after losing multiple organs to a V2 Lariat.


Why is this special? Who has not had last words in this manga? Hiruzen had a sword wiggle in his chest for several minutes and he was an old ass man etc.


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is a durability monster, Tsunade cannot replicate Bee's feat against Kisame.


Durability feats are what now?


Troyse22 said:


> @multiple people, why isn't water prison effective?
> 
> What is this based on?


All the people who have moved in them in the manga, probably.



Jad said:


> A bijuu hunter


He has never been called that. That was another Troy thing.


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## Kisame (Jan 16, 2018)

Starting in the ocean with a huge distance is advantageous for Kisame, especially with full knowledge. However in order for him to still stand a chance against all the sannin you need to restrict SM, summons (especially Jiraiya's), and maybe some more of Jiraiya's abilities that I can't recall.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Zero890 (Jan 17, 2018)

The 3 individually have a great opportunity to beat him. Kisame has it wrong if he gets involved in CQC with Tsunade, a single fist and Kisame is destroyed, taking into account that Kisame blocks more than he dodges he may lose without knowledge when the fight starts. Tsunade also has Ranshinsho. Waterdome is neutralized by Katsuyu, if the dome is bigger than Katsuyu, the slug can be split and Tsunade can be hidden in one of her clones and make her escape, it is also possible that Katsuyu can catch Kisame due to the amount of Katsuyus . 1000 sharks are useless, Tsunade destroys them by amplifying the AoE of Katsuyu acid. Daikodan can not eliminate Tsunade with Byakugou, a giant Katsuyu should also be able to block the attack. in general Tsunade would win with mid-high diff. Orochimaru can also defeat him, Kusanagi should be able to cross Samehada, Kisame can not kill or incapacitate Orochimaru in any way, 1000 sharks are neutralized by 10 thousand snakes with Kusanagi. Waterdome is neutralized by Manda and by ten thousand snakes too, Daikodan is useless due to Oral Rebirth. Orochimaru would win mid-high diff too. Kisame can not beat Jiraiya either. Gamagushi Shibari GG. In CQC Kisame is trapped by Ranjishigami from several directions at the same time, Jiraiya could also seriously hurt Kisame with a Rasengan, 1000 sharks lose against Gamayu Endan, Waterdome is neutralized by the amphibious toads, the toad barrier is also effective in Waterdome , Daikodan is dodged by Bunta (can jump too high and is fast), Kisame returns to lose here mid-high diff

Reactions: Like 2


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jan 17, 2018)

This is just sad. Not even funny anymore. Trying to bend manga facts and craziness of bias .. I mean this is a poor topic.


Each sannin can mid to high diff  (ı try to be optimistic cuz fight happens in ocean) Kisame.Actually they can sit and drink something while Bunta-Katsuyu-Manda trio play with Kisame .... Maaan this is nonsensical ....

And being in the ocean not helps that much. Snakes can swim (like manda 2 did) very fast and fine in ocean. Tsunade's punches can create vortexes. And Jiraiya can caught Kisame in tourd guard prison in water. Which is end of the story for Kisame.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Trojan (Jan 17, 2018)

Kisame gets fodderstompped neg-difficult.


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## BenaGD (Jan 17, 2018)

This guy is going all out into making Kisame one of the most overrated characters.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 17, 2018)

Mods must be having a laugh


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## Alita (Jan 17, 2018)

SM Jiraiya>Kisame>Tsunade>Orochimaru(Without edo)>Base Jiraiya

IMO

Reactions: Like 2 | Optimistic 1


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## Architect (Jan 18, 2018)

Kisame oneshots them with Daikodan even on the ground. Thanks to cast time of Water Dome being so short.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2018)

BenaGD said:


> This guy is going all out into making Kisame one of the most fairly rated characters.



ftfy


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 18, 2018)

BenaGD said:


> This guy is going all out into making Kisame one of the most overrated characters.


You must be new here


Troyse22 said:


> ftfy


And you cant be serious

I can tolerate you going balls to the wall arguing left right and center that Kisame is besting SM Jman in a 1v1...Although i VEHEMENTLY disagree with that notion, I can take it being thrown around

Sure, fine whatever, why not, to each their own i guess 

But dude...

You cannot expect to be taken seriously by claiming Kisame>The collective sannin in a 3v1

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Piggiii (Jan 18, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Location: Middle of the ocean.
> Knowledge: Full for Kisame, none for the Sannin
> Distance: 100m
> Restrictions: Edo Tensei
> ...


Sannin of course


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> You cannot expect to be taken seriously by claiming Kisame>The collective sannin in a 3v1



And yet feats support the notion that he can take them on.

Kisame was far above and beyond any Sannin individually bar Oro with his War ET Hokage. Kisame is 1-2 tiers in front of Oro and Jiraiya and 2-3 tiers in front of Tsunade.

The notion that any individual Sannin can take Kisame on come P2 isn't supported by anything but bias, a fair match is Kisame vs 3 Sannin, and even then it's still pretty one sided in Kisame's favor.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 18, 2018)

some people are really underestimating Kisame even with these conditions saying that any Sannin can solo (though I do agree SM Jiraiya can), now I can see him beating Tsunade, Orochimaru and base Jiraiya one on one but all three at once... hell no thats just too much, we've seen Kisame produce a stupid amount of water on his own so having the ocean is a plus but its definitely not enough to beat all three, it just gives him more to play with w/o having to waste time and energy to produce water, I mean thats like saying Gaara with the desert can beat all the Sannin at once... is that true?...hell no


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 18, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> And yet feats support the notion


No

No they do not

Like not even in the most remote sense

Barring actual gods, there are 4, MAYBE 5 people in the entire manga who can take the collective sannin in a majority...And kisame under no circumstances is on that list

Kisame doing well against a NERFED Bee while Kisame had a matchup ADVANTAGE on top of that doesnt translate to him being ridiculously above the sannin

And kisame showings against Bee are his best in the entire manga bar none him at his best

And yeah sure its impressive...It doesnt nmake him peer to Rinnegan obitop or Nagato 

Nothing in this manga does

And no

You quoting this line out of context and saying "lel feats do lol" doesnt make it true 


Troyse22 said:


> The notion that any individual Sannin can take Kisame on come P2 isn't supported by anything but bias


You say shit like "kisame can solo the 3 sannin"...

And then throw the word "bias" around when people suggest you take a step back...

Wow...

Jman was portrayed as someone who could face off against Kisames BOSS, and merited praise from him after the fact despite taking an L

Tsunade faced off against Madara freaking Uchiha and CARRIED her fellow kage alongside Ohnoki and merited praise from him

Orochimaru was deemed somewhat of a threat by Suigetsu even after watching sasuke tear through the FKS...Meanwhile Suigetsu felt confident enough to challenge Kisame in solo combat not once...But twice...

Theres a little more than just "bias" to entertain the notion that a sannin is AT MINIMUM on Kisames level...

Which is apparently the level of a demi god or something 


Troyse22 said:


> a fair match is Kisame vs 3 Sannin, and even then it's still pretty one sided in Kisame's favor.


No

No it isnt fair

Not even remotely

Because its a stretch to say Kisame can take a single sannin...Let alone 3 at once on his lonesome

And then youre gonna turn around and say "its one sided" when kisame faces teh 3 of them 

Nah bruh

Not even entertaining this any further

Reply

Neg me

Dislike

Whatever

This is the last youre hearing from me on this topic

Inb4 "deal with it" and/or "concession accepted"

I just straight up aint got the time or patience to talk about this with you


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame doing well against a NERFED Bee while Kisame had a matchup ADVANTAGE on top of that doesnt translate to him being ridiculously above the sannin



Bee didn't want to BM, and when it was obviously Bee's potential saving grace, it was obvious he didn't have enough juice for it. Bee wouldn't sacrifice his life just because he didn't wanna face "Ay's Iron Claw"

Bee also used Sabu and Ponta to his advantage 2 times in that battle, once to try a multidirectional blitz on Kisame, and once to blindside Kisame

Kisame used them once, and he didn't even need to as Gyuki already confirmed Kisame>Bee in speed underwater

Kisame had no KI either

Kisame was decidedly more restricted than Bee, and Bee was actually in an advantageous position regarding Sabu and Ponta



WorldsStrongest said:


> Jman was portrayed as someone who could face off against Kisames BOSS, and merited praise from him after the fact despite taking an L



Kisame earned praise from EVERYONE in the area at the time of his death, including the one who brought him to a KO (Gai)

KCM Naruto>Any Sannin
Bee> Any Sannin
Any Sannin>Yamato

And yet Kisame was sure he could take all 3 on at once.

But sure, tell me how Kisame was portrayed well beneath the Sannin 



WorldsStrongest said:


> Orochimaru was deemed somewhat of a threat by Suigetsu even after watching sasuke tear through the FKS...Meanwhile Suigetsu felt confident enough to challenge Kisame in solo combat not once...But twice...
> 
> Theres a little more than just "bias" to entertain the notion that a sannin is AT MINIMUM on Kisames level...
> 
> Which is apparently the level of a demi god or something




Already explained the Oro, Suigetsu and Kisame interactions

Oro tortured and experimented on Suigetsu for a long time, he was logically afraid of him (as I would be if someone did that shit to me)
Sasuke also confirms Suigetsu doesn't have a chance against Kisame
Kisame actually laughs at Suigetsu when Suigetsu says he's gonna take the blade and take Kisame down
Kisame doesn't even flinch when Suigetsu slides across the table
Obito saved Suigetu's ass by de-escalating the situation

Read the manga brochacho



WorldsStrongest said:


> I just straight up aint got the time or patience to talk about this with you shurg



Because you know you're wrong, so pretending like you don't care when I counter doesn't mean you win. 

Concession accepted, always happy to take out the trash

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 18, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Concession accepted





WorldsStrongest said:


> Inb4 "deal with it" and/or "concession accepted"



Like clockwork bro lol

Someone not wanting to talk to a dude who CLEARLY has his mind made up on a topic and WONT be dissuaded otherwise *is in no way shape or form a concession...*

Thats called an informed decision to not sit here and waste my day doing exactly nothing but digging sand

Ive been posting here for near 2 years now and ive never *once* seen you give any ground on any of your unlikely (to say the least) claims regarding kisame even one time 

Towards myself or otherwise

Why would i assume that would change after such a long period of time

*A refusal to budge on something doesnt make your points correct either*


Troyse22 said:


> always happy to take out the trash


This is yet another reason why no one wants to debate with this nonsense 

Youre abrasive for literally no reason

You ever once see me insult you in my entire time here?

Yet you find the need to do it regardless 

Aint the first time either


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## Troyse22 (Jan 18, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Like clockwork bro lol
> 
> Someone not wanting to talk to a dude who CLEARLY has his mind made up on a topic and WONT be dissuaded otherwise *is in no way shape or form a concession...*
> 
> ...



And yet i've been known to concede multiple topics regarding Kisame when i'm proven wrong, just ask @ARGUS or @Hi no Ishi 

As long as someone puts forth a half decent argument that proves me wrong, i'll budge. 

But the manga doesn't contain anything as of P2 that suggests Any Sannin>Kisame

Sorry, but that's the truth


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