# Nagato vs Minato



## Matty (Jun 17, 2015)

Area: Destroyed Konoha
Distance: 50 Meters
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None
Mindset: IC

Bonus scenario: CT restricted


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Nagato low-diffs.

 Minato's not penetrating Nagato's defenses when he has Shinra Tensei, Animal Path Summons, and Shared Vision. Minato just gets grabbed by the Chamelon and gets his soul ripped out by Human Path.  He's basically dispatched of just as quickly as KCM Naruto and Base Bee was.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2015)

Minato cuts off his head.


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## Kyu (Jun 17, 2015)

Minato speedblitzes.

Fuck logic.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 17, 2015)

No knowledge pretty much gives the win to Nagato. Minato won't know Nagato senses chakra, nor will he ever expect Nagato to have fast reflexes, nor will he expect jutsu such as Demon Realm or Shinra Tensei. 

To be honest, a very powerful Shinra Tensei could be used to finish Minato.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2015)

KCM Minato is probably kind of tough.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

So if Minato throws a kunai, and Nagato reflects it with Shinra Tensei, and Minato teleports to it and throws it again during Nagato's cool down, what happens?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So if Minato throws a kunai, and Nagato reflects it with Shinra Tensei, and Minato teleports to it and throws it again during Nagato's cool down, what happens?



 Minato goes for the Rasengan, Nagato absorbs it, Minato shits himself and gets grabbed by Nagato's Asura Path. Then Nagato uses Shinra Tensei to ensure Minato dies. 

 Or you know, Nagato bushin feints Minato here.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 17, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So if Minato throws a kunai, and Nagato reflects it with Shinra Tensei, and Minato teleports to it and throws it again during Nagato's cool down, what happens?



My original post.



> Minato just gets grabbed



Hang on, let me just grab Minato for a second.


*Spoiler*: __ 



*-Tobi*


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My original post.



 But Nagato bushin feints here.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Minato goes for the Rasengan, Nagato absorbs it



Minato's actual hand continues through the barrier and he slaps Nagato in the face.



NarutoX28 said:


> Minato shits himself and gets grabbed by Nagato's Asura Path.



Oh look, Minato jumped away.

Then Nagato goes to do _anything_ else and gets preempted and cut right down the middle without ever knowing how.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 17, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My original post.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 And Minato fell flat on his face afterwards. 

 Same thing happens except Nagato levitates towards Minato's position and blasts him with Asura Path or soul rips him in that instant.

 Nagato neg diffs.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 17, 2015)

So is Minato KMC or not?

I'm assuming BM is restricted.


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## Dr. Leonard Church (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm assuming Minato uses KCM mode, there's no reason for him not to be using it.

Nagato IC'ly ST's Minato's kunai away which prevents the immediate Hiraishin blitz. Depending on how quickly Minato attempted to Hiraishin/Shunshin forward Nagato could conceivably hit Minato mid-blitz, although Hiraishin shenanigans prevent any serious damage from happening. Nagato makes summons which Minato breaks via Contract Seal. Gamabunta may be counter-summoned when Nagato brings his summons forth, but this will just mean that (if/when) Minato contract seals Nagato's animals he'll respond with uber-ST and wipe the battlefield, Minato included. So I'll pretend for a moment this won't happen. Minato throws more kunai which are deflected. This'll go on for a while, since I recall Nagato demonstrating use of ST and BT without a 5s cooldown, and Asura Realm is friggin stupid in this match. Minato'll get close, though.

What makes me most worried is what happens when he does. Minato almost always goes for a Rasengan over kunai stab; the only time he didn't was when he fought pre-Kage E, at which point I don't even know if he'd completed the technique. If he Rasengans with KCM on Nagato's going to use Preta Realm and absolutely fuck his chakra levels. 

I indicate that Minato usually sticks around to tag his enemies (Tobi) and does not have the killing feats to take down Nagato: Base Minato's Rasengan failed to kill Tobi despite the dead-center shot, and Nagato tanked Kirabi's V2 Lariat without showing signs of Edo regeneration. Unless Minato hits Nagato in the face, Nagato can simply heal by eating Kyuubi/Minato chakra and win from there. As for Minato escaping via Hiraishin at this point, I also indicate Minato's chakra levels, once drained, limit his Hiraishin ability. If Nagato could collapse Kirabi from V2 with Preta Realm, he can certainly do so here.


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## Rocky (Jun 17, 2015)

I don't know how Shinra Tensei is going to stop Hiraishin.

Nagato can repel kunai, but it isn't as if Minato can't still jump to those kunai and throw them again (or lunge forward) from a near _point-blank_ range.

Nagato can't exactly defend with Shinra Tensei again.


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## Empathy (Jun 18, 2015)

If he gives it a slight budge, then what Rocky's saying could work. But if he blows it far away from him, then Minato won't be able to warp in proximity. Without knowledge, it gives Minato an initial chance for a fatal strike, but I think Nagato's resilient enough to last and not make the same mistake again.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> And Minato fell flat on his face afterwards.
> 
> Same thing happens except Nagato levitates towards Minato's position and blasts him with Asura Path or soul rips him in that instant.
> 
> Nagato neg diffs.



You got Minato  with Tobi.  Don't worry, it happens.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Nagato can't transport items instantly. Even if Nagato puts alot of power behind his gravity wave, Minato is probably capable of jumping to the deflected kunai, _before_ it gets too far from Nagato, and catching it.

From there, he can just run over (or rethrow the kunai and teleport) to Nagato and slap him. If that happens, Minato's won.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

Or Minato can throw a second kunai after the first one is repelled.  He has two hands, for two kunai.  It's as if nature itself designed Minato to win.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato doesn't even need to resort to v3 to win here.

inb4 Nagato retreats and has the Pain Paths fight & learn Minato's abilities.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

If Nagato starts with Shinra-Tensei,  Minato is going to be way more concerned with getting the fuck out of dodge than charging forward, as Nagato's casual Shinra Tensei is way more powerful Deva's:


So there is going to be plenty of distance between Minato and Nagato. From there Nagato can pull out his summons and Minato will probably respond with Toads, but we saw how that match goes in the manga and the Toads loose out the Cerberous and Chameleon Combo. At which point Minato will end up having to use Hiraishin to avoid the cerberous's many duplicates or evade Chamelon ambushes. Once he's play his hand and shown his evasion skills with ST, Nagato will simply nuke the area with CST/CT at which point Minato dies unless BFR is legal in which case he survives by fleeing to one of his previously set up marks, but still loose the battle as he'll have essentially been forced to run away.

Nagato is simply an entire "level" above Minato. So unless this is KCM/BM-Minato he stands no chance


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Shinra Tensei fluctuates in power, regardless of who's using it. Even Deva's could one-shot boss toads.

Also, I wonder if Nagato would summon spam following that ST instead of running into close quarters like he did in the manga canon. 



Actually, I wonder why he'd start with Shinra Tensei at all. Bansho Ten'in seems like his preferred opener, offensively at least.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Shinra Tensei fluctuates in power, regardless of who's using it. Even Deva's could one-shot boss toads.


The Manga outright states the 6 Path Techniques are vastly more powerful when used by Nagato. And that was Nagato while weakened drastically with grey hair and emaciated.



> Also, I wonder if Nagato would summon spam following that ST instead of running into close quarters like he did in the manga canon.


Cool and if he does what he did to B, I.E. attack him from behind Minato is going to once again be too concerned with evading Nagato's attack to be capable of doing anything else. 



> Actually, I wonder why he'd start with Shinra Tensei at all. Bansho Ten'in seems like his preferred opener, offensively at least.


His opener is pull out summons in-front of him, though he will use ST to deflect Kunai, but assuming he did use BT Minato is going to need to evade that shit or he's going to get his soul ripped out.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

I assume that Nagato means NO 6 paths of pain.  Just the singular Nagato+Rinnegan.

Alive Minato can beat him.  Minato sees the crazy Rinnegan eye pattern and immediately determines that he will not attack Nagato directly, but rather engage with shadow clones until he feels he understands the abilities of Nagato fully and sees an opportunity to kill.  Not being entirely sure of his abilities, he opts for several reteat-FTG locations.  He does not suffer from the _blindness of illogical rage that his son does_.  He will be patient, and strike quickly the moment he sees an opening.

Kakashi figured out the exact timing of Shinra Tensei, so it should not be difficult for Minato to figure it out.  Kakashi is an equal genius to Minato, only with 1) far less chakra, and 2) the need to save Choji rather than himself.  If Kakashi can figure out shinra tensei, then Minato can as fast or faster, and without exhausting himself.

My thoughts on how he would avoid/counter the abilities of the Rinnegan:

1.  Deva's attraction/repulsion powers: easily FTG out of shinra tensei, basically neutralizing it
2.  Animal path's summons: frog summons + a little effort on his own part can easily defeat Nagato's summons (as shown in the manga) during the first 1-2 minutes of combat.
3.  Worthless abilities, fodder-level no matter what:
------a) Asura path's mechanical aspects
------b) Human path's abilities
------c) Naraka path's god of hell
4.  Absorbing ability of Preta path.  This is a tricky one, but Minato realizes the absorbing ability from a clone's rasengan being absorbed.  So he makes sure his clones attack with a kunai in one hand, and a rasengan in the other, and prepared to use both physical and ninjutsu-based attacks.

(the only strong abilities Nagato has are shinra tensei and the absorbing ability)

And as Minato fights, he places a seal on Nagato in the interval between repulsions.  He quickly figures out the minimum interval between pushes, and after a few attempts, kills Nagato.  Also, Frog Song is a viable option.  

Naruto's sage abilities were enough to defeat Pain.  Minato, while not as accomplished a toad sage, can handle all of the abilities of Nagato, and is one of the most observant, cautious fighters in the manga.  He only acts when he believes he has full knowledge. 

But out of 100 matches, I would say 70 Minato,  30 Nagato.  Extremely high difficulty

Question: wouldn't FTG be able to completely negate CT and ST anyway?  *All of Nagato's moves are forced-movement based, easily dodged, or require prolonged, immobilized proximity.  Teleportation seems like a perfect counter to these powers.*  Tobirama would also very well do in this fight.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> The Manga outright states the 6 Path Techniques are vastly more powerful when used by Nagato. And that was Nagato while weakened drastically with grey hair and emaciated.



So what?

Not all of Nagato's Shinra Tensei blew up forests.



Turrin said:


> Cool and if he does what he did to B, I.E. attack him from behind Minato is going to once again be too concerned with evading Nagato's attack to be capable of doing anything else.



Minato could _literally_ just turn around and slap Nagato.

Nagato would likely try and counter-attack following that, but Minato would just jump away.



Turrin said:


> His opener is pull out summons in-front of him, though he will use ST to deflect Kunai, but assuming he did use BT Minato is going to need to evade that shit or he's going to get his soul ripped out.



His opener when Tendo wasn't available was to summon. His opener against KCM Naruto was Bansho Ten'in.

I also don't know what the second half of that statement even means. I already went over why deflecting kunai doesn't do much, and pulling Minato in only makes it easier for Minato to mark Nagato and get outta dodge.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So what?
> 
> Not all of Nagato's Shinra Tensei blew up forests.


Literally his first offensive ST, even when emaciated was one of that power. So why should I expect him to use a weaker one?



> Minato could literally just turn around and slap Nagato.


And what is Nagato doing at that time, standing around?



> Nagato would likely try and counter-attack following that, but Minato would just jump away.


Which is what I said would happen. Nagato attacks Minato and Minato is forced to jump away.



> His opener when Tendo wasn't available was to summon. His opener against KCM Naruto was Bansho Ten'in.


Most of the time he starts with Kuchiyose. Started with Animal Realm against Jiriaya and Naruto. And summoning was his first move after recovering from Itachi's Amaterasu and second move at the start of the Edo fight. 

I'll grant you he did use BT first in that one instance as an Edo, but he drew Naruto into a boulder attack, so if he does that to Minato, Minato will have to dodge.



> I also don't know what the second half of that statement even means. I already went over why deflecting kunai doesn't do much, and pulling Minato in only makes it easier for Minato to mark Nagato and get outta dodge.


It means very simply that if Minato allows Nagato to pull him in, Nagato soul rips him and that is GG. Doesn't matter if Nagato gets marked at the same time because soul rip is game over for Minato. So Minato does not want to be drawn in.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

So the TL;DR of my post is in bold, but I'll repeat it:

*All of Nagato's moves are forced-movement based, easily dodged, or require prolonged, immobilized proximity.  Teleportation seems like a perfect counter to these powers.*


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> So the TL;DR of my post is in bold, but I'll repeat it:
> 
> *All of Nagato's moves are forced-movement based, easily dodged, or require prolonged, immobilized proximity.  Teleportation seems like a perfect counter to these powers.*



It doesn't. When Obito was warping Minato and the latter teleported, he still crashed due to the pull of Kamui.

Shinra Tensei is much more aggresive than that pull. (If that's what you mean with "Negate ST"). If you mean dodging it, ST is not visible, and might still fall prey to a surprise ST while Minato tries to blindside Nagato with Hiraishin.

Similar to how Madara sensed Tobirama and dodged, Nagato might be able to replicate such a thing with sensing + Shinra Tensei, considering that jutsus that activates on thought tends to be extremely fast and helps a lot.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> So the TL;DR of my post is in bold, but I'll repeat it:
> 
> *All of Nagato's moves are forced-movement based, easily dodged, or require prolonged, immobilized proximity.  Teleportation seems like a perfect counter to these powers.*



 Shared Vision is a perfect counter to Hiraishin. What's your point?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

Shared vision doesn't help.  If you have five cameras on a thing that teleports, that doesn't help you keep track of when it goes or where it's going.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> It doesn't. When Obito was warping Minato and the latter teleported, he still crashed due to the pull of Kamui.
> 
> Similar to how Madara sensed Tobirama and dodged, Nagato might be able to replicate such a thing with sensing + Shinra Tensei, considering that jutsus that activates on thought tends to be extremely fast and helps a lot.



Minato isn't getting touched with ST.

It doesn't travel distance faster than V2 Ei's fist does when it's already tickling Minato's nose.



> Shinra Tensei is much more aggresive than that pull. (If that's what you mean with "Negate ST"). If you mean dodging it, ST is not visible, and might still fall prey to a surprise ST while Minato tries to blindside Nagato with Hiraishin.



He can jump when Nagato shouts, SHINRA TENSEI.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shared vision doesn't help.  If you have five cameras on a thing that teleports, that doesn't help you keep track of when it goes or where it's going.



 Good thing Minato's speed and reflexes aren't instantaneous or you'd have a point there.

 Shared Vision will still allow him to track the location at which Minato warps a lot easier compared to other ninja which is a huge help as it allows to prepare a defense against his strikes ahead of time.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> It doesn't. When Obito was warping Minato and the latter teleported, he still crashed due to the pull of Kamui.
> 
> Shinra Tensei is much more aggresive than that pull. (If that's what you mean with "Negate ST"). If you mean dodging it, ST is not visible, and might still fall prey to a surprise ST while Minato tries to blindside Nagato with Hiraishin.
> 
> Similar to how Madara sensed Tobirama and dodged, Nagato might be able to replicate such a thing with sensing + Shinra Tensei, considering that jutsus that activates on thought tends to be extremely fast and helps a lot.



you mean standing still, putting his hands outstretched, palms out, and saying "shinra tensei" is a move that isn't telegraphed in advance?  Once you are looking for it, you would be pretty bad to NOT see ST coming.  and if your escape jutsu has no seals and reacts rather instantly, I'm not sure if ST would even work that well...



NarutoX28 said:


> Shared Vision is a perfect counter to Hiraishin. What's your point?



Shared vision sure helps, but "perfect counter," no.  They can look in many directions, but they can't defend perfectly in all directions.  Besides, we are talking about single Nagato.  No shared vision.  Just 1 person.  But if it's the 6 paths of pain, then this fight is even easier.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Literally his first offensive ST, even when emaciated was one of that power. So why should I expect him to use a weaker one?



Because that was Kabuto vs. a group of people whom he knew were incredibly powerful.

This is Nagato vs. some random guy



Turrin said:


> And what is Nagato doing at that time, standing around?



The same thing he was doing when B flipped around and activated v2.



Turrin said:


> Which is what I said would happen. Nagato attacks Minato and Minato is forced to jump away.



Marking Nagato in the process. 



Turrin said:


> Most of the time he starts with Kuchiyose.



Against Jiraiya, Animal Path went alone (probably because it's the only path that can summon the other bodies). Against Naruto, Deva was out of commission. 



Turrin said:


> It means very simply that if Minato allows Nagato to pull him in, Nagato soul rips him and that is GG. Doesn't matter if Nagato gets marked at the same time because soul rip is game over for Minato. So Minato does not want to be drawn in.



When Nagato tried to soul rip Naruto, it wasn't instantaneous. Same thing with Hiruzen trying to physically pull out Orochimaru's soul. Why would it be so for Minato.

It doesn't really matter though, because while Minato's on his way over he can throw markers at or around Nagato and just warp out of BT. Then while Nagato's all like "what just happened," Minato can mark him.


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## Dr. White (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato would take, but Nagato has been able to catch KCM Nagato and Bee while stationary. Minato counters him well being able to escape with just thought alone, and not physically limited (like KCM Naruto was) when escaping. Nagato could win if he had means to put Nagato down. In Base he has to resort to BFR, or RDS to not lose. With Kyuubi power he wins no question, mid diff at most, being generous to Nagato.

So yeah Base Minato can tie more often than not IMO, and KYuubi Minato wins.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

If Minato went in foolishly, this would quickly end with Nagato winning.  

But if Minato sees the Rinnegan and uses clones and caution, he has as perfect a counter to the rinnegan's abilities as is possible.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Good thing Minato's speed and reflexes aren't instantaneous or you'd have a point there.
> 
> Shared Vision will still allow him to track the location at which Minato warps a lot easier compared to other ninja which is a huge help as it allows to prepare a defense against his strikes ahead of time.



They're faster than Nagato's by an absurd margin, which is all that matters.  All  those eyes will see is a yellow flash.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Nagato >>> Handicapped Obito


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## Icegaze (Jun 18, 2015)

No need to restrict CT minato can teleport it away 
Don't see why the kunai he has outside battle field should be restricted 
None the less Nagato beats him quite simply 

Minato is hard countered


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## Ersa (Jun 18, 2015)

Living Minato never at any point in the manga had access to KCM. Edo Minato did but that's a different story altogether.

It's close but I've always been of the opinion that Nagato stands slightly above Minato/Itachi. His versatile defenses and natural Uzumaki tankiness are going to make it pretty hard for Minato to kill him outside of a kunai stab or Rasengan to the head. Also won't his ST displace all of Minato's kunai? I mean this guy was one-shotting boss summons through his Paths and his actual ST is a notch above.

I don't see an avenue for Minato to win here. No knowledge means he has a chance of a surprise attack but that's really it, Nagato has him outgunned in most areas and he holds a significant stamina/durability advantage.


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2015)

Nagato wins this low diff 

 -- Shared vision and sensing helps nagato counter any sneak attacks that minato may pull, minatos shunshin attempts are reacted to, and the second he attempts to attack, he gets his face smashed in by a pinpointed ST, breaking every bone in his body, 

 -- FTG doesnt help him against this in any way whatsoever, since he isnt evading something he has no chance in percieving nor would he be aware of an intangible force knocking him away, 
he isnt getting back up and atttacking before the cool down is finished, hell if he even gets back up at all, nor does FTG help him defy any damages  from the attack, 

 -- he cant counter CT, and he certainly cant counter CST, not that it matters since a standard boss sized ST from deva path obliterated far more durable and sturdier targets in one shot, and that was done with no effort whatsoever,,, nagato himself using it means even quicker execution and far more devastating affects meaning that minato gets pasted,,,,nagato using chameleon to hide himself and sneak paste minato only  makes things worse,  

 -- no knowledge makes things even worse since minato gets his face smashed in the second he tries to attack him, there is also the fact that asura armor tanks any physical attack and preta negates any ninjutsu, so even if minato tries to get lucky, its not helping him at all,

if we are counting edo minato then nagato would still beat KCM minato, albeit mid/high diff, whilst BM minato flat out wrecks him


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 18, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> No need to restrict CT minato can teleport it away
> Don't see why the kunai he has outside battle field should be restricted
> None the less Nagato beats him quite simply
> 
> Minato is hard countered



Never understood that either,  it's part of minato's moveset.  It's one of his key traits to teleport away massive objects. 

He doesn't even need markings outside.  Reverse summoning via clones allows him to place kunai outside battle. 


With regards to bt and soul rip,  anyone who thinks that will work should shoot themselves.  This ain't kcm naruto and killer bee. As soon as nagato grabs Minato, he gets marked, Minato teleport behind him and slashes his neck clean. 


ST is the only that in this match up.  And unless it's a big one, the interval gets countered by FTG.  A big one can still be repelled with barrier.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato isn't getting touched with ST.
> 
> It doesn't travel distance faster than V2 Ei's fist does when it's already tickling Minato's nose.



Shinra Tensei is invisible. Unless Nagato destroys trees/surrounding area (Not likely, considering the location) with it, Minato won't see it coming.



> He can jump when Nagato shouts, SHINRA TENSEI.



Then Nagato forces him to use Hiraishin all the battle just shouting that and outlast .


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato would use clones and cautiously figure out Nagato's ability, just like Kakashi did after seeing Deva Paths push like 3 times.  Minato can easily figure out the exact timing.

He would use clones and setup a perimeter of FTG-safe retreat zones.  He sees the Rinnegan and is extra cautious. 



ARGUS said:


> -- FTG doesnt help him against this in any way whatsoever, since he isnt evading something he has no chance in percieving nor would he be aware of an intangible force knocking him away,
> he isnt getting back up and atttacking before the cool down is finished, hell if he even gets back up at all, nor does FTG help him defy any damages  from the attack,


Nagato's pushes are telegraphed before they occur.  And once Nagato uses it vs Minato's clones, he can predict when it will be used as well as predict when it is recharging.



ARGUS said:


> -- he cant counter CT, and he certainly cant counter CST, not that it matters since a standard boss sized ST from deva path obliterated far more durable and sturdier targets in one shot, and that was done with no effort whatsoever,,, nagato himself using it means even quicker execution and far more devastating affects meaning that minato gets pasted,,,,nagato using chameleon to hide himself and sneak paste minato only  makes things worse,


OP said no CT




ARGUS said:


> -- no knowledge makes things even worse since minato gets his face smashed in the second he tries to attack him, there is also the fact that asura armor tanks any physical attack and preta negates any ninjutsu, so even if minato tries to get lucky, its not helping him at all,



Clones clones clones.  Minato is very careful, like Kakashi was.  He doesn't just run at Nagato screaming a war cry at the top of his lungs.  

*Nagato supporters, tell me:
Wouldn't FTG neutralize the Rinnegan's movement-control abilities?*

Minato seems like one of the people who would do the best vs Nagato.

(and some of the abilities just simply don't matter.  The soul-ripper, the death god, and the mechanical paths are just...not that good)


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Because that was Kabuto vs. a group of people whom he knew were incredibly powerful.


The ST he used against them was far from his best technique, so it's not like he was pulling his best shit out due to their threat "level". 



> This is Nagato vs. some random guy


Nagato has sensing abilities, he's going to know Minato is not some random guy from his chakra alone.



> The same thing he was doing when B flipped around and activated v2.


Not only was Nagato extremely weakened there in his emaciated form, but he allowed B to hit him because his objective there was to absorb B's V2 Shroud. That's not going to be the case with Minato. So he will be aiming to use another attack.



> Marking Nagato in the process.


And explain how he does that while evading any of Nagato's possible attacks.



> Against Jiraiya, Animal Path went alone (probably because it's the only path that can summon the other bodies). Against Naruto, Deva was out of commission.


Even as an Edo his second move was Summons and his first move after Amaterasu was more summons. 



> When Nagato tried to soul rip Naruto, it wasn't instantaneous. Same thing with Hiruzen trying to physically pull out Orochimaru's soul. Why would it be so for Minato.



A) If your saying Shiki Fuujin mechanics apply to Human-Realm's ability than Minato is fucked the moment the technique is used, because he won't be able to use Jutsu while his soul is being ripped just like Orochimaru,

B) Human Realm has shown the ability to touch someone's head and render them completely defenseless, so when he BT's Minato he'll just put his hand on his head and that's GG:



C) We've seen Human Realm soul rip someone w/o a struggle before:



So it's probably Naruto being cracked out on Kyuubi chakra and having experience playing tug of war with Kyuubi that enabled him to even struggle against Nagato in the first place.



> It doesn't really matter though, because while Minato's on his way over he can throw markers at or around Nagato and just warp out of BT. Then while Nagato's all like "what just happened," Minato can mark him.


SM Naruto was caught off guard by BT so much that he couldn't make any move before being pulled in:



Like wise KCM-Naruto barely reacts in time to use a chakra arm before making contact with the target he was being pulled into by emaciated Nagato, let alone being able to perform multiple actions



Base-Minato's reactions and physical movements are inferior to KCM-Naruto's and SM-Naruto's, and KCM-Naruto had experienced the technique before. The only thing that is above them is FTG. Therefore Minato will only have time to use FTG to escape, not time to accurately throw Kunai and than use FTG all before being drawn in by a Jutsu that totally catches him off guard:

Unless of course the distance is greater than that, which it is in the thread, in which case Nagato isn't using BT at the 50m starting distance and will instead probably summon.

Simply put if the distance is short and Nagato opts for BT out of the gate, Minato will be too caught off guard by his body being drawn in at alarming speeds to do anything other than escape with FTG. If he does not choose to escape and instead choose to focus on marking Nagato, he may do so but at the expense of being wasted by the attack of Nagato's he's being pulled into. If the distance is long this isn't even an issue and Nagato starts probably by pulling out his Chameleon Summon which Minato can't detect.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato didn't use clones against Obito, nor against the Raikage, despite being outnumbered, nor against Juudara himself in a 1 on 1 fight. Just because he used clones to fight multiple opponents, doesn't mean he is Naruto.

Minato would not figure out Shinra Tensei's exact cooldown on the get-to-go either, and Nagato is bound to know the mechanics of Hiraishin way faster to start spamming summons, blast him harder and kill him when he's hit by a powerful ST and go invisible with Chameleon, wich Minato cannot detect when not even 3 sages could, and Sharingan couldn't see.

Minato's offense is as well hard countered as he only kills with Rasengan and Kunais, wich both can be countered by Preta Path and Asura mechanich armor. Something Nagato would pull out the moment he sees Minato disappearing off his eyes and easily avoiding his jutsus. Or will begin to mess up with his Kunais the moment he sees him dissapearing to one of them.

Shared vision also helps a lot, because Killer Bee could see Minato teleporting from another angle and could save Ei pretty fast. Here, Minato would not be hit by a giant and prolly slow tentacle, he would be hit by a sword coming out of nowhere without knowledge, an invisible blast that will wreck all his bones, or a barrier that will erase all his chakra the moment he touches it.

Teleporting won't save him from crashing, as he crashed when the slower pull of Kamui was taking him to another dimension and he teleported, thus, when he teleports to try to mitigate the damage (something not viable considering the initial force and hit will wreck him nonetheless), he will still crash.

Nagato has 6 jutsus (or more) to be figured out. Minato has 1. Nagato, at the very least, in my eyes, is the one that counters him hard. Considering that we've seen how sensors and other points of view counters Hiraishin. And luckily here, Nagato has both.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

Just because he didn't use clones vs Obito or Raikage crew doesn't mean he wouldn't use them here.  Kakashi also doesn't spam clones, but he used a special lightning clone.  Minato can easily tell that Nagato is insanely powerful, and he wouldn't charge in with his real body without determining the abilities. 

The Asura armor is trash.  Nardo slammed it into the ground with his bare hands.  It's been destroyed countless times.  It caught Bee offguard once.  

The only abilities Nagato has that can even counter Minato are Preta Path and Deva path.  Normally, Minato would not use sage mode, but I think he would be pressed into using it this battle with his real body once he has figured out his plan of attack.  

Easy to teleport away from Deva path's pushes because they are so telegraphed.  Minato might want to try to seal the summons away or while his toad summons help.  FTG is as perfect a counter to Rinnegan as exists in the world.

And he can mark the summons for FTG, he can mark the rocks and ground, he can use kunai.  Worst comes to worst, he can teleport away from the battlefield and ambush again.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know how Shinra Tensei is going to stop Hiraishin.
> 
> Nagato can repel kunai, but it isn't as if Minato can't still jump to those kunai and throw them again (or lunge forward) from a near _point-blank_ range.
> 
> Nagato can't exactly defend with Shinra Tensei again.



That's why there are other Paths, y'know like Demon Realm. The Path that overwhelms Taijutsu users.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Just because he didn't use clones vs Obito or Raikage crew doesn't mean he wouldn't use them here.  Kakashi also doesn't spam clones, but he used a special lightning clone.  Minato can easily tell that Nagato is insanely powerful, and he wouldn't charge in with his real body without determining the abilities.



Like he did against Juudara.


> The Asura armor is trash.  Nardo slammed it into the ground with his bare hands.  It's been destroyed countless times.  It caught Bee offguard once.



Naruto destroyed with a Sage powered Rasengan. Minato doesn't have the strenght to bypass it without Rasengan. Something Nagato can take out with Preta. And even then, you are assuming Minato has the strenght that SM Naruto had, enough to lift and send a giant summon flying. So even if Naruto could do it with his hands (something he didn't), doesn't mean Minato can with a Kunai.



> The only abilities Nagato has that can even counter Minato are Preta Path and Deva path.  Normally, Minato would not use sage mode, but I think he would be pressed into using it this battle with his real body once he has figured out his plan of attack


.  

SM that takes time to use. Therefore you're saying he will take tiem to use it on a shinobi of the caliber of Nagato. By the time Minato figures out every jutsu of the Rinnegan, he can likely be dead, or in the best case for him, Nagato would've already figured out Hiraishin.



> Easy to teleport away from Deva path's pushes because they are so telegraphed.  Minato might want to try to seal the summons away or while his toad summons help.  FTG is as perfect a counter to Rinnegan as exists in the world.



I don't get how he can't telegraph the pull of Kamui but here he can telegraph the pull of Shinra Tensei. He's hit and he crashes, no matter how much time he uses Hiraishin.



> And he can mark the summons for FTG, he can mark the rocks and ground, he can use kunai.  Worst comes to worst, he can teleport away from the battlefield and ambush again.



The summons are dead animals that Nagato can control by itself. It's not a contract, as he doesn't even need blood to use them. Contract seal won't work here and he won't even see or find the chameleon by himself, not even with Sage mode. Therefore he's open for a lot of surprise attacks, and he cannot afford that.

He can teleport the others, but let him do it and waste chakra himself. He's not an Edo here.


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## StickaStick (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato has too many things going against him here to be able to reliably win. Sensing + shared visions counter any attempts at blindside attacks; Preta Path deals with Rasengan and any other ninjusu Minato might throw Nagato's way; Ashura Path ensures Nagato likely isn't getting his throat slit (and virtually nullifies any CQC from Minato for that matter). While on the other end Minato has to deal with Boss Summon spamming, amplified ST + BTs, and Ashura Path missiles and shit. Minato _could _pull off something ingenious with his use of FTG and/clones, but this basically has to be looked at as while Minato has his own tricks up his sleeve, Nagato's still presents a more difficult situation for Minato then vise-versa. So, while an upset isn't impossible, Nagato with his arsenal is clearly working from the point of advantage.

Nagato mid diff.

BM Minato would obviously be a different story, though.


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## Icegaze (Jun 18, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Never understood that either,  it's part of minato's moveset.  It's one of his key traits to teleport away massive objects.
> 
> He doesn't even need markings outside.  Reverse summoning via clones allows him to place kunai outside battle.
> 
> ...



Thanks 
Not sure why CT is even mentioned . It's nothitn more than a waste of chakra for Nagato 

ST is the only threat here . However it's one Minato can do nothing about 


Not sure how wrapping to a mark will stop him from crashing to the ground after ST hits him

ST apparently can't miss so Yh Minato must loose


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


>



 People can deny it all they want, it doesn't make it any less true.  











Icegaze said:


> Thanks
> Not sure why CT is even mentioned . It's nothitn more than a waste of chakra for Nagato
> 
> ST is the only threat here . However it's one Minato can do nothing about
> ...



 What happens when Chibaku Tensei sucks up all the Kunai towards the core?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Nagato >>> Handicapped Obito



The point of that scan was to show him slashing hiraishin-giri style.  

Also not a fan of the ABC logic with young Bee.  If Young Bee can react to hiraishin, everyone can better than him can.  Well, fine, but that puts young Bee above Ei, Juubi Jin Obito, and somewhere around the level of JJ Sage Madara as the only people who could exploit that gap, and I just don't buy that.

What I think happened is that Young Bee looked at his severed tail and noticed a tag off panel, said oh crap he could warp to me, and stuck a sword behind himself.  It would explain why he's sweating profusely.  Minato also didn't seem to want to kill Ei or Bee, which explains why he held the kunai above Bee's head, while with Raikage his kunai was a centimeter from plunging into his back, and why with Obito his slash and appearance are instantaneous.  It fits with Minato walking away.  Alternatively, Minato could have seen the sword, and that's why he stopped.  There was nothing stopping Minato from warping away from that danger, as he showed just a moment ago he can use hiraishin in instant succession, and there was nothing stopping him from pulling a Tobirama, and dropping his kunai to warp and attack Bee from an unprepared direction, except that he didn't really want to kill either of them.  Supposedly they clashed again on a few more occasions, and Minato never killed them despite being clearly superior, so that makes sense.

The difference between Bee there, and Nagato, are that Nagato wouldn't know he got tagged, and has no knowledge on hiraishin mechanics, which is why I don't think you can simply equate Young Bee doing something to everyone else doing it easier.



NarutoX28 said:


> What happens when Chibaku Tensei sucks up all the Kunai towards the core?



He warps Nagato into the core.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The point of that scan was to show him slashing hiraishin-giri style.
> 
> Also not a fan of the ABC logic with young Bee.  If Young Bee can react to hiraishin, everyone can better than him can.  Well, fine, but that puts young Bee above Ei, Juubi Jin Obito, and somewhere around the level of JJ Sage Madara as the only people who could exploit that gap, and I just don't buy that.



 Ei already implied he could anticipate where Minato warps and crush him with his speed before Minato completes another warp. That in no way places Bee above Ei.

 Juubi Jin Obito already reacted to KCM Minato's Hiraishin, hence why he got tagged by a Truth Seeker Orb after his Hiraishin Jump.

 JJ SM Madara already reacted to Minato's Hiraishin. The only reason he was caught off-guard was thanks to Kakashi and Gaara's team effort, nothing more. 



> What I think happened is that Young Bee looked at his severed tail and noticed a tag off panel, said oh crap he could warp to me, and stuck a sword behind himself.  It would explain why he's sweating profusely.



 So basically, you're going off of something that was never implied. Good to know. Even if what you're saying is true, you basically implied that Hiraishin is useless once your opponent has knowledge on it. Unfortunately, Nagato will receive knowledge on it thanks to Shared Vision and his other techniques which will force Minato into using it.

 He's sweating profusely because he never expected him to warp behind him and thus, had to react accordingly based on instincts. Minato had him at his blindspot. That places Minato at an advantage, but Young Bee still reacted regardless. 



> Minato also didn't seem to want to kill Ei or Bee, which explains why he held the kunai above Bee's head, while with Raikage his kunai was a centimeter from plunging into his back, and why with Obito his slash and appearance are instantaneous.  It fits with Minato walking away.



 Bee had him on the ropes by holding a Sword to his gut.

 Ei and Obito had no knowledge on his technique and never anticipated him to warp right above them. They were simply unprepared and were shown not to react accordingly while Young Bee did. Completely different scenarios.



> Alternatively, Minato could have seen the sword, and that's why he stopped.  There was nothing stopping Minato from warping away from that danger, as he showed just a moment ago he can use hiraishin in instant succession, and there was nothing stopping him from pulling a Tobirama, and dropping his kunai to warp and attack Bee from an unprepared direction, except that he didn't really want to kill either of them.  Supposedly they clashed again on a few more occasions, and Minato never killed them despite being clearly superior, so that makes sense.



 You're right, there was nothing stopping Minato from warping away. I never denied Minato having the advantage, but the idea is that Young Bee was able to react to him which doesn't aid Minato's speed and reflexes here.

 There was plenty stopping him from pulling a Tobirama. Minato relied on the element of surprise. Minato pulling a Tobirama and relying on the tag he used on Killer Bee would only make his strikes more predictable and thus, easier to counter.

 And it was outright stated that Ei and Minato clashed on multiple occasions and Ei is still alive.  

 Minato was stated to be unsurpassable, not outright superior. I do think he held the advantage in speed, but Manga made it clear that Ei had the advantage in reflexes and added knowledge on Hiraishin implied that he'd have an easier time countering it, so Ei wasn't completely outclassed IMO.



> The difference between Bee there, and Nagato, are that Nagato wouldn't know he got tagged, and has no knowledge on hiraishin mechanics, which is why I don't think you can simply equate Young Bee doing something to everyone else doing it easier.



 That depends. You really want to assume that Minato can tag Nagato when Nagato has Shared Vision and other means of forcing him back?


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The point of that scan was to show him slashing hiraishin-giri style.
> 
> Also not a fan of the ABC logic with young Bee.  If Young Bee can react to hiraishin, everyone can better than him can.  Well, fine, but that puts young Bee above Ei, Juubi Jin Obito, and somewhere around the level of JJ Sage Madara as the only people who could exploit that gap, and I just don't buy that.
> 
> ...



Incorrect. Hiraishin is a bit tricky to understand, but when you read the raw it becomes clearer. Hiraishin isn't a technique based around blitzing the enemy, it's a technique based around confusing the enemy. Hiraishin is meant to be used strategically to teleport the user into a position to launch a surprise attack. The element of surprise is what determines the success of the attack, if the attack is not a surprise and the enemy is aware it's coming he can react to the attack, because after the Hiraishin teleport it's literally just the user's physical movement speed launching the attack. 

That's why Minato has developed 2 additional styles of using Hiraishin to increase the chances of of his attack surprising the enemy. 

B was able to react to Minato's attack because he was not surprised by it. He knew he was marked and had seen Minato use Hirahsin to teleport behind the enemy to attack him before. So the moment Minato vanished he was wary of Minato appearing behind him and thus was not caught off guard and was able to react to Minato's attack after he warped. 

If your not caught by surprise anyone that has relatively high speed can react to Minato's successive attack w/o being blitz'd. That's why sensors are especially hard to land Hiraishin on, and why Madara trolled Tobirama's Hiraishingiri.

So Hiraishin is not meant to be seen as I get a tag near or on you and your flash blitz'd GG'd. It's meant to be scene if I get a Tag on or near you and teleport at a time or in a position your not on guard, your going to get hit.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Like he did against Juudara.


nah, because juudara is waaaay more powerful than nagato and Minato wasnt being cautious vs him so they could determine his capabilities.  He was an edo, so he didnt care about personal safety




LostSelf said:


> Naruto destroyed with a Sage powered Rasengan. Minato doesn't have the strenght to bypass it without Rasengan. Something Nagato can take out with Preta. And even then, you are assuming Minato has the strenght that SM Naruto had, enough to lift and send a giant summon flying. So even if Naruto could do it with his hands (something he didn't), doesn't mean Minato can with a Kunai.


i didnt realize it was with a Rasengan, the panel looked to me like he swatted him down and crushed him with his hand 
[2]



LostSelf said:


> SM that takes time to use. Therefore you're saying he will take tiem to use it on a shinobi of the caliber of Nagato. By the time Minato figures out every jutsu of the Rinnegan, he can likely be dead, or in the best case for him, Nagato would've already figured out Hiraishin.


minato goes into sage mode quickly.  But even if it takes a while, his initial fighting will be purely with clones, giving him plenty of time to knead chakra



LostSelf said:


> I don't get how he can't telegraph the pull of Kamui but here he can telegraph the pull of Shinra Tensei. He's hit and he crashes, no matter how much time he uses Hiraishin.


  telegraphing means the person initiating the jutsu does it in an obvious way, giving reaction time to the opponent.  ST is obvious when it is about to be cast.  The first three times Nagato uses ST on minato, it only hits clones.  So it doesn't matter if it hits.  But once minato determines the timings and the obvious buildup to the jutsu, it should be pretty easy to avoid.




LostSelf said:


> The summons are dead animals that Nagato can control by itself. It's not a contract, as he doesn't even need blood to use them. Contract seal won't work here and he won't even see or find the chameleon by himself, not even with Sage mode. Therefore he's open for a lot of surprise attacks, and he cannot afford that.
> 
> He can teleport the others, but let him do it and waste chakra himself. He's not an Edo here.



what I meant was that he could mark the beasts as he fights, letting him teleport to all different places in case of immediate danger.  He could also use his stealing jutsus to remove the summons (like the Cerberus) away

I dont see how people think that shinra tensei can be prepared secretly.  

And no one is allowing Minato the use of clones to figure out Nagato's powers when kakashi clearly did


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

I don't feel like getting into a huge quote war.



Turrin said:


> Not only was Nagato extremely weakened there in his emaciated form, but he allowed B to hit him because his objective there was to absorb B's V2 Shroud. That's not going to be the case with Minato. So he will be aiming to use another attack.



If B had time to turn around and rap, then Minato has time to turn around use Rasengan or something. Nagato would absorb it, but Minato would mark him then and there.

Nagato could try and grab Minato and follow up with the Asura or Human path power, but Minato would jump away at that point. 



Turrin said:


> And explain how he does that while evading any of Nagato's possible attacks.



Turn around, mark Nagato, evade Nagato's counter attack.



Turrin said:


> A) If your saying Shiki Fuujin mechanics apply to Human-Realm's ability than Minato is fucked the moment the technique is used, because he won't be able to use Jutsu while his soul is being ripped just like Orochimaru,



Both Naruto and Orochimaru used jutsu when struggling for their souls.



Turrin said:


> Base-Minato's reactions and physical movements are inferior to KCM-Naruto's and SM-Naruto's, and KCM-Naruto had experienced the technique before. The only thing that is above them is FTG. Therefore Minato will only have time to use FTG to escape, not time to accurately throw Kunai and than use FTG all before being drawn in by a Jutsu that totally catches him off guard:



Less-than-50% Kakashi had time to pull a chain and lasso it onto a rock. 

Even if Nagato's goes faster, I don't see The Yellow Flash being incapable of tossing a kunai towards Nagato and warping out. Sorry.



Turrin said:


> If the distance is long this isn't even an issue and Nagato starts probably by pulling out his Chameleon Summon which Minato can't detect.



Nagato's never started with the chameleon summon _ever_, but even if he did Minato can sense. The Chameleon's jutsu is just it blending with its surroundings.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If B had time to turn around and rap, then Minato has time to turn around use Rasengan or something. Nagato would absorb it, but Minato would mark him then and there.
> .


I repeat

1) The Nagato your referring to was extremely weakened
2) Nagato was aiming to absorb B's V2 shroud he won't be aiming to do so here.

So again I repeat if Nagato is attacking Minato from behind than he will be using gee Idk an attack suited to his enemy.



> Turn around, mark Nagato, evade Nagato's counter attack.


He's not turning around and marking Nagato, before Nagato can counter attack. Base-B reacted to Minato's speed, Nagato will as well.



> Both Naruto and Orochimaru used jutsu when struggling for their souls.


Orochimaru specifically could not use some of his Jutsu while his soul was being ripped, so care to explain that to em.



> Less-than-50% Kakashi had time to pull a chain and lasso it onto a rock.


Nagato can augment the strength of BT, just like ST. That's how he was able to pull a nail out of a board. Against Kakashi he used a less powerful BT than against SM-Naruto, that's thee only explanation that fits there. And we know Nagato's BT is even stronger and can be activated faster than Deva's.



> Even if Nagato's goes faster, I don't see The Yellow Flash being incapable of tossing a kunai towards Nagato and warping out. Sorry.


So than your argument is Minato is dramatically physically faster than SM-Naruto and KCM-Naruto. Seem fair 



> Nagato's never started with the chameleon summon ever, but even if he did Minato can sense.


No he can't hence why Shima needed to use sense of smell to find it and why Itachi couldn't see it with his Sharingan. The Chameleon's chakra can't be detected.

Edit: Also to be perfectly honest with you I don't see any issue if Minato does mark him, it's not like Minato can do anything whatsoever to Nagato. What's he gonna do FTG + Kunai slash, which will accomplish nothing considering Nagato can summon future weapons into his body to replace his organs with Ashura Realm. What's he gonna do Rasengan, which just gets absorb and adds to Nagato's power. Minato is more likely to teleport into a massive Shinra Tensei getting himself killed than actually landing a finishing blow after he's marked Nagato. And Nagato will pull out his finishers if he's in any danger which will obliterate everything including Minato. And this is assuming Fujutsu Kyuuin can't simply absorb the Fuuinjutsu off of Nagato, or Nagato can't simply remove that piece of his body by replacing it with a future weapon via Ashura Realm.


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## Joakim3 (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Both Naruto and Orochimaru used jutsu when struggling for their souls.



Why are you applying the same mechanics _Shiki Fujin_ to Ningendo abilities? _Shiki Fujin_ seals one soul into the death god, while Ningendo simply removes the soul from the occupant with the _option_ to seal

Orochimaru at best was able to move a finger to enable Sword of Kusanagi to stab Hiruzen (and even that was attributed to Hiruzen's old age)

Naruto is a tad bit of a different case as one.. 

- He has a chakra cloak that can form jutsu for him (his actual hands were busy keep his soul in his body). 

- He has experience play the soul/chakra tug-of-war game (something he was loosing rather swiftly at against a multi-tasking controlled Nagato)

Neither of which Minato has at his disposal and thats assuming Nagato doesn't go for the head which is an insta GG see how it _completely_ immobilized Shizune


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Turrin said:


> What's he gonna do FTG + Kunai slash, which will accomplish nothing considering Nagato can summon future weapons into his body to replace his organs with Ashura Realm.



What        .



Joakim3 said:


> Neither of which Minato has at his disposal and thats assuming Nagato doesn't go for the head which is an insta GG see how it _completely_ immobilized Shizune



Nagato would never actually have his hands on Minato long enough to begin the soul removal.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Ei already implied he could anticipate where Minato warps and crush him with his speed before Minato completes another warp. That in no way places Bee above Ei.
> 
> Juubi Jin Obito already reacted to KCM Minato's Hiraishin, hence why he got tagged by a Truth Seeker Orb after his Hiraishin Jump.
> 
> ...





Turrin said:


> Incorrect. Hiraishin is a bit tricky to understand, but when you read the raw it becomes clearer. Hiraishin isn't a technique based around blitzing the enemy, it's a technique based around confusing the enemy. Hiraishin is meant to be used strategically to teleport the user into a position to launch a surprise attack. The element of surprise is what determines the success of the attack, if the attack is not a surprise and the enemy is aware it's coming he can react to the attack, because after the Hiraishin teleport it's literally just the user's physical movement speed launching the attack.
> 
> That's why Minato has developed 2 additional styles of using Hiraishin to increase the chances of of his attack surprising the enemy.
> 
> ...



Both of you seem to be saying there's a gap between Minato disappearing and reappearing, and I've never seen one.  The same moment you notice he's gone is the same moment he's somewhere else.  Even if you assume you know him being gone means he's behind you, you're pitting your ability to react against his action, and Minato wins that.

What Ei thought he could do doesn't matter, because he never did it.  Not then, and not on any other occasion.  Before Ei could even spot Minato, he was already ready to stab Bee.  

What NarutoX28 is saying is that (excuse my talking to you as if you're not here) is that Bee was caught off guard, sensed Minato appear behind him, drew a sword, and put it to Minato's belly before Minato could move his arm down.  That doesn't make sense to me, because we saw Minato can move a kunai from his waist to behind Ei faster than Ei can traverse a millimeter at his top speed.  He can do that, and hiraishin twice before Ei can complete a punch.  

I'm not basing how I think Minato would do against Nagato around my idea of what happened with Bee, I'm basing what I think would happen with Nagato, and what I think happened with Bee off of what we know about Minato.  That should be better for you to know, and while I'm at it, I never implied that hiraishin is useless once you know.  Just the opposite, I'm saying that even if you know it doesn't matter.  You can deter one attack from one angle, but Minato has an area around his kunai his kunai that he can warp to, and I also highlighted the easy number of options Minato has for follow up attacks if he does abandon the first attempt.  Ones that you won't preempt or be able to prepare for, and that you can't possibly keep up with if you aren't Super Madara.  That's why I find Nagato's counters insufficient to the point of irrelevance.  I also find the notion of grabbing Minato laughable, because you've only assured that you'll be tagged.

You didn't comment on Minato's warp-slash against Obito.  You had stated that it's a thing he can't do, and I think that showed he can, unless you're contesting that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky dah best.



Rocky said:


> What



We can rebuild him.  We have the technology.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Nagato gets blindsided by Hirashin, eats a rasengan to his back, then he gets up. A single rasengan isn't killing Nagato.
Then he summons Asura limbs and shit, and now he knows about Hirashin. Minato tries the same shit, he gets hit by Shinra tensei, and no he isn't avoiding it, gravity travels @ the speed of light. From that point on, it becomes a battle of attrition and Nagato is better @ it.
He wins eventually.


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## Pocalypse (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato gets blindsided by Hirashin, eats a rasengan to his back, then he gets up. A single rasengan isn't killing Nagato.
> Then he summons Asura limbs and shit, and now he knows about Hirashin. Minato tries the same shit, he gets hit by Shinra tensei, and no he isn't avoiding it, gravity travels @ the speed of light. From that point on, it becomes a battle of attrition and Nagato is better @ it.
> He wins eventually.



Gravity doesn't travel and doesn't have a speed either


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Gravity doesn't travel and doesn't have a speed either



Not in newtonian model. But in general relativity, it does and it travels with the speed of light.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> nah, because juudara is waaaay more powerful than nagato and Minato wasnt being cautious vs him so they could determine his capabilities.  He was an edo, so he didnt care about personal safety



So Minato never used clones even with enemies much more powerful than Nagato, with only one arm and being outnumbered, but here, he will? The thing is he never used it. There's no reason to assume he will begin with such. Juudara can bypass edo Regeneration, Minato knew that very well, and Naruto was in danger of being killed. Therefore Minato wasn't careless with his son's life on the line. 



> minato goes into sage mode quickly.  But even if it takes a while, his initial fighting will be purely with clones, giving him plenty of time to knead chakra



For the reasons stated above and others more, Minato doesn't fight like that. And Minato doesn't enter SM quickly, he said it himself and he cannot even maintain his chakra:

before



> telegraphing means the person initiating the jutsu does it in an obvious way, giving reaction time to the opponent.  ST is obvious when it is about to be cast.  The first three times Nagato uses ST on minato, it only hits clones.  So it doesn't matter if it hits.  But once minato determines the timings and the obvious buildup to the jutsu, it should be pretty easy to avoid.



Not always. Leaving the clone spamming aside right here, Nagato doesn't need to pull up his hands nor shout to use Shinra Tensei. He destroyed Chouza, Kakashi, and co. while tied up by chains. He also deflected a Kunai without talking or anything. If Minato is going to warp everytime he sees Nagato lifting his hand, then he is going to tire himself out.

ST is not easy to avoid. SM Naruto couldn't sense any buildup, nor KCM either, who are better sensors than Minato. It's invisible, and can be cast without warning. No knowledge means Minato is eating one of those, and if he lives that one, with the knowledge Nagato would be getting about Hiraishin, he will surprise Minato again with a ST without hand stance. And that one is likely to kill him.



> what I meant was that he could mark the beasts as he fights, letting him teleport to all different places in case of immediate danger.  He could also use his stealing jutsus to remove the summons (like the Cerberus) away



The summons are more paths of Nagato, considering they have the rods inside them, it's not a contract, therefore the jutsu might not work. And teleporting them away, when Nagato can bring them back won't do good to him either.



> I dont see how people think that shinra tensei can be prepared secretly.



before



> And no one is allowing Minato the use of clones to figure out Nagato's powers when kakashi clearly did



Kakashi fights this way. Minato never fought that way.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 18, 2015)

lol, so minato can use clones with one arm now?

The things people say around here.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato gets blindsided by Hirashin, eats a rasengan to his back, then he gets up.



Then Minato tries again with a sage Rasenagan.

Or cuts his head off.

Even Jubito had trouble reacting to Hiraishin once marked. Nagato is screwed.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then Minato tries again with a sage Rasenagan.



Because Nagato is really not going to absorb and surprise Minato with a stab. 
In fact, the first time Nagato's hit, he'll probably absorb Rasengan very shortly (getting the healing benefits from the chakra elements [mental and physical energies] from it). Minato would be surprised, like Bee, and could be taken out with a powerful Shinra Tensei.

Bee has proved to be a fucking tank, like seriously probably one of the best tanks in the manga. Takes two Shinra Tensei point blank, and a super Senjutsu punch from Juugo without even a scratch. I'm not willing to go ahead and say Minato is a tank like Bee.



> Or cuts his head off.



Asura Path can stop fast foes like Bee; a crippled Nagato had no problem reacting to KCM Naruto who is reasonably much, much faster than Minato (base and SM).



> Even Jubito had trouble reacting to Hiraishin once marked. Nagato is screwed.



Juubito had no trouble once he knew it was part of their strategy. Harder to establish when you're fighting 4 foes. This also depends on how much Juubito knew about Tobirama's arsenal.

Nagato can sense and use Shinra Tensei which can be activated anytime he wants; Minato will always be off guard. 
The moment Minato's chakra appears and Nagato decides to pump an insane amount of chakra into Shinra Tensei... that's it. Minato's done.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then Minato tries again with a sage Rasenagan.
> 
> Or cuts his head off.
> 
> Even Jubito had trouble reacting to Hiraishin once marked. Nagato is screwed.



 While Minato kneads his chakra for Sage Mode, he gets Bansho Tenin'd and stabbed by multiple Chakra Rods.

 Minato already admitted it takes too long to even knead chakra for Sage Mode, so thus, he never he used it in a real battle. 

 And Juubito never had trouble reacting to Hiraishin. He managed to tag KCM Minato with a Truth Seeker Orb post-Hiraishin warp after chopping off his arm prior to his Hiraishin Warp. The only one who managed to do something was Tobirama which is why he's overall more reflexive than Minato. Hell, after protecting his rear, BM Minato and BSM Naruto couldn't penetrate his defenses despite being tagged.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then Minato tries again with a sage Rasenagan.
> 
> Or cuts his head off.
> 
> Even Jubito had trouble reacting to Hiraishin once marked. Nagato is screwed.



Juubito was a cocky douchebag who got trouble reacting to it when he was too busy ranting.
And he doesn't have a jutsu like ST, which can be instantly activated and defends from all angles.

Also Nagato can summon his animals, and use the extra pair of eyes to track Minato's movements. Hell, if we grant Asura's abilities to him, then he should be able to summon those extra pair of faces Asura had, if he is too worried about getting blindsided from behind.

And I don't think Minato can cut his head off. Nagato is one durable mofo.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In fact, the first time Nagato's hit, he'll probably absorb Rasengan very shortly (getting the healing benefits from the chakra elements [mental and physical energies] from it). Minato would be surprised, like Bee, and could be taken out with a powerful Shinra Tensei.



Nagato can absorb the Rasengan, but he'd still be marked afterwards much like Obito who was marked after the Rasengan's energy was expended. Mere surprise isn't going to stop this. Minato can make decisions quickly regardless of surprise, which is why he was able to do what he did against v2 A from point-blank range. 

Nagato following up with Shinra Tensei us a non-issue, because Minato, _unlike B_, has an instantaneous teleportation jutsu. Once Minato's outta there and Nagato's marked, the match is over.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Asura Path can stop fast foes like Bee; a crippled Nagato had no problem reacting to KCM Naruto who is reasonably much, much faster than Minato (base and SM).



B and Naruto never randomly popped up behind Nagato with no forewarning, so I don't know why you're bringing them up. 

_Itachi_ is the one that blindsided Nagato, twice nontheless, and what happened?

I'll tell you. Itachi chopped his arms off with Susano'o the first time and then stabbed his ass with a gigantic sword from a dozen meters away the second.

Nagato is _fucked_ against Hiraishin.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Juubito had no trouble once he knew it was part of their strategy.



Obito always knew it was part of their strategy. Even if you want to give him a pass the first time because he didn't know he had been marked, that doesn't account for the next two times Tobirama popped up behind him without consequence. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> The moment Minato's chakra appears and Nagato decides to pump an insane amount of chakra into Shinra Tensei... that's it. Minato's done.



Except Nagato can't react to Hiraishin before Minato's struck - or killed -him.

Like PoW said, the moment Minato gone is the same moment that he's behind you swinging a blade at your neck. Unless you're tiers faster than Minato, the only way to not die when marked is to predict exactly when and where he will jump to and time a counter perfectly.

Nagato isn't faster, and he isn't likely to pick up Minato tendencies before he's dead.



NarutoX28 said:


> Minato already admitted it takes too long to even knead chakra for Sage Mode, so thus, he never he used it in a real battle.



He can balance a small amount of it in order to use the form briefly. That would be what happened in the manga. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And I don't think Minato can cut his head off. Nagato is one durable mofo.



When did Nagato tank a blade being swung at his neck?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 18, 2015)

I'm honestly too lazy to check back if that were the case, but do you think he can manage to do so against Nagato's Shinra Tensei + Bansho Tenin combo, the same combo that SM Naruto was implied to fall victim to?


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

I'm not sure what those jutsu are supposed to do once Nagato is marked. Minato can evade them by teleporting and just _flash-slice_ Nagato in half whenever he feels like doing so.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato can absorb the Rasengan, but he'd still be marked afterwards much like Obito who was marked after the Rasengan's energy was expended. Mere surprise isn't going to stop this. Minato can make decisions quickly regardless of surprise, which is why he was able to do what he did against v2 A from point-blank range.
> 
> Nagato following up with Shinra Tensei us a non-issue, because Minato, _unlike B_, has an instantaneous teleportation jutsu. Once Minato's outta there and Nagato's marked, the match is over.



Minato has to land properly, not be absorbed. Minato won't touch if the jutsu fails prematurely.

That moment is more than enough time for Nagato to unleash a powerful ST.

You're presupposing that Shinra Tensei can be predicted by Minato. Tell me, how is Minato going to anticipate a jutsu no ocular power or sensing ability has ever been able to anticipate?

Minato can teleport after being hit with Shinra Tensei, but the initial damage will still be done and after Minato teleports, the momentum doesn't go away, dealing additional damage. Assuming the first one doesn't kill him.



> B and Naruto never randomly popped up behind Nagato with no forewarning, so I don't know why you're bringing them up.
> 
> _Itachi_ is the one that blindsided Nagato, twice nontheless, and what happened?
> 
> ...



Bee went V2 and almost smashed a crippled Nagato without any warning. Nagato managed to react. Naruto, whose tons of times faster than the Minato ITT, was going to smash a Rasengan on Nagato; Nagato was able to react in time. 

Itachi blind sighted an Edo Tensei, the first time, that was programmed not to attack other ET... like the rest. Itachi also blind sighted a Kabuto controlled Nagato who didn't know the latter could sense. 

Minato lacks a lot of luxuries Itachi had. Nagato is in control and knows his own abilities, he's got a real Rinnegan not a fake ET one and he's not crippled.

Hiraishin is no thread when Nagato can tank Minato's jutsu long enough to absorb them and negate the damage and fire back with a Shinra Tensei that's got enough force to kill.



> Obito always knew it was part of their strategy. Even if you want to give him a pass the first time because he didn't know he had been marked, that doesn't account for the next two times Tobirama popped up behind him without consequence.



True. Though a few things wrong on your end. He knew he was marked the first time. It was only when Naruto showed he had an attack that could actually harm Juubito, and him learning he can't use Kamui, he chose to take measures to react.


> Except Nagato can't react to Hiraishin before Minato's struck - or killed -him.
> 
> Like PoW said, the moment Minato gone is the same moment that he's behind you swinging a blade at your neck. Unless you're tiers faster than Minato, the only way to not die when marked is to predict exactly when and where he will jump to and time a counter perfectly.
> 
> Nagato isn't faster, and he isn't likely to pick up Minato tendencies before he's dead.



Minato teleports, his chakra is there Nagato just activates Shinra Tensei at will. Nagato literally doesn't have to move to take out Minato when he tries his Hiraishin act. In fact, the moment Minato's there, he can just activate Demon Realm, whether it be via arms or whatever appropriate weapon spawns from a the relevant part of Nagato.
Nagato isn't like opponents Minato is used to fighting. A simple Hiraishin blitz won't work.

Nagato, as a cripple, was fast enough to respond to attacks from KCM Naruto, who is much faster than Minato. Plus reacting to Minato as you say involves actually having to be able to do something physically. Nagato doesn't need to move to respond with a Shinra Tensei or Asura Path. 

Nagato is actually likely to pick up Minato's tendencies much faster than Minato will pick up his. Minato's strategy is simple, teleport and attack. Nagato's game plan will be to hit Minato with a monstrously powerful Shinra Tensei when he teleports. 

All Minato's going to learn is that Ninjutsu and Taijutsu aren't going to be very effective means of offense. Worse than the case with Pain as Nagato has stronger and faster versions of Pain's jutsu.



NarutoX28 said:


> I'm honestly too lazy to check back if that were the case, but do you think he can manage to do so against Nagato's Shinra Tensei + Bansho Tenin combo, the same combo that SM Naruto was implied to fall victim to?



To be honest, if Nagato uses a strong Shinra Tensei... the fight is done. Minato would be unable to do much due to either being dead due to the impact of the force or won't be in any fighting condition.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Maybe I'll tackle that later, but one of the problems I'm seeing is that you seem to think Naruto is faster than Minato. He isn't outside of Shunshin, which I don't recall him using on Nagato.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

Jutsus that activates on thought are fast enough to have the job done. Freaking Sasuke could activate Susano'o before Minato touched his shoulder in KCM and Itachi could also form Susano'o before Kirin stroke.

Obito had time to think when Minato used FTG. Nagato senses him and blasts him away. Considering his ST would be faster than his hand-speed. Unless Sasuke's/Itachi's Susano'o activation are light years faster than Nagato's ST, something not true. Minato would fall short unless he manages to take out a Nagato that knows nothing. But shared vision and sensing nulifies that badly.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato's first fight was literally against the person with the best "thought activated" defensive jutsu in the entire manga.


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## LostSelf (Jun 18, 2015)

Kid Obito probably wasn't that fast. Or Susano'o is the best jutsu that activates on thought. Because if we compare base Minato to his KCM one, the gap is huge. Yet, Sasuke was able to activate it faster than Minato's handspeed.

And i don't think the difference between Susano'o activation and Shinra Tensei are as huge as base Minato and KCM Minato. Especially when others have reacted to him, like Killer Bee when he was about to hit the Raikage.


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## Rocky (Jun 18, 2015)

Minato wouldn't be standing in front of him throwing a punch. He'd be disappearing from his vision.

It isn't Minato's arm speed versus Nagato's thought speed. It's Minato's arm speed versus Nagato realizing Minato's not there anymore, deciding to turn on his sensing, locating Minato, and _then_ trying Shinra Tensei.

He'd probably be dead around "deciding to turn on his sensing."


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 18, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Then Minato tries again with a sage Rasenagan.
> 
> Or cuts his head off.
> 
> Even Jubito had trouble reacting to Hiraishin once marked. Nagato is screwed.



Young Bee>>>>Jubito.


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## ARGUS (Jun 18, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Minato would use clones and cautiously figure out Nagato's ability, just like Kakashi did after seeing Deva Paths push like 3 times.  Minato can easily figure out the exact timing.


Except figuring out doesnt help him counter it, 
no matter what he does he wont be able to anticipate it nor would he be able to know where the intangible force is, or when its going to blow him away, 
nagato unlike his puppets is actually an adept sensor he would be able to sense all of minatos that are  present in the battlefield so this isnt working at all, 



> He would use clones and setup a perimeter of FTG-safe retreat zones.  He sees the Rinnegan and is extra cautious.


Yet the second he attempts to attack he gets blown off the planet, 
he has no clue what the blast radius of ST could be considering that it can be as big as the user wants it to be, 
as well as the fact that the force is compeltelly intangible lacking all shape or form, 



> Nagato's pushes are telegraphed before they occur.


no they are not, 


> And once Nagato uses it vs Minato's clones, he can predict when it will be used as well as predict when it is recharging.


He can never predict it, and he isnt reacting to it either consdiering its execution is instant upon the users thought 

dont see what fanfic some people are bringing here, when literally no one has ever been able to predict or anticipate ST yet minato somehow becomes an exception? based on what exactly? 





> OP said no CT


Only for second scenario, 
reading the whole sentense might have helped you here 





> Clones clones clones.  Minato is very careful, like Kakashi was.  He doesn't just run at Nagato screaming a war cry at the top of his lungs.


All you are telling me is that he is very careful, 
nagato uses a large scale ST and each and every clone is poofed in the battlefield, 
chances are  that the real would also be affected 

kakashi was careful yet despite the aid of people, he died against deva path who is only a measly fraction of nagato, 



> *Nagato supporters, tell me:
> Wouldn't FTG neutralize the Rinnegan's movement-control abilities?*


No it wont, dont see where people get  the assumption that FTG can somehow resist and negate all damage when its just transportation at another location, 
if minato gets hit by that force, even if  he teleports the affect of that force wont change 

just how it  happened with teleporting from kamui, 

*Spoiler*: __ 









he teleported away but fell at the exact same force that the kamui warp was pulling him in from,
against ST it  would be no different, the only difference being that unlike kamui, STs force in repulsion is much much higher, meaning minato gets every bone broken in his body



> Minato seems like one of the people who would do the best vs Nagato.
> 
> (and some of the abilities just simply don't matter.  The soul-ripper, the death god, and the mechanical paths are just...not that good)


 -- His physical attacks cant breach asura, 
 -- he cant percieve ST, and he certainly cant tank the stronger ones, 
 -- his ninjutsu is uselesss, 
 -- his summmons are garbaged 
 -- his FTG is useless against ST, 
 -- his markings are located, and his sneak attacks are completely negated, 

lol he stands no chance


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Young Bee>>>>Jubito.



there wasn't even killing intent against obito.


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## N120 (Jun 18, 2015)

It's a draw. 

Both have counters to the others abilities which makes it difficult, as the fight drags on both will learn of the others techniques and limitations.

Minato will escape every attack except chakra drain, if nagato grabs him minato will lose chakra at a high rate which may effect his hirashin tech, if so then nagato wins.

Nagato will lose if minato can find an effective strategy to attack him in the cool down period. As strong as he is, he isn't as fast as juubito/juubidara and also doesn't have the truth seeker balls to counter minatos attack.

All in all, it could go either way.


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## thechickensage (Jun 18, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Except figuring out doesnt help him counter it,
> no matter what he does he wont be able to anticipate it nor would he be able to know where the intangible force is, or when its going to blow him away,
> nagato unlike his puppets is actually an adept sensor he would be able to sense all of minatos that are  present in the battlefield so this isnt working at all,


Figuring out Nagato's jutsus is *obviously the key to beating him*.  I dont even know how you can say that.



ARGUS said:


> Yet the second he attempts to attack he gets blown off the planet,
> he has no clue what the blast radius of ST could be considering that it can be as big as the user wants it to be,
> as well as the fact that the force is compeltelly intangible lacking all shape or form,


The larger the size, the longer the recovery time.  Minato isn't stupid.  And ST is extremely obvious.  Even if you don't telegraph the attack, the ST itself pushes matter out of the way.  Meaning dust and rocks and dirt.  You can see a huge pressure wave as it pushes.  It doesn't travel at light speed.



ARGUS said:


> He can never predict it, and he isnt reacting to it either consdiering its execution is instant upon the users thought



Even if it were instantaneous (and idk why you think that), it doesn't matter because 1) you can see the concussion wave  extremely easily (how else did readers see it in the manga?), and 2) even if he can't predict it (which he could), he only has to react to it.  Meaning, escape the initial push, then warp in instantly and attack



ARGUS said:


> dont see what fanfic some people are bringing here, when literally no one has ever been able to predict or anticipate ST yet minato somehow becomes an exception? based on what exactly?



People predict it all the time.  Kakashi predicted it by using the chains to give Deva Path no other choice but to respond with ST.  It's actually very easy to predict when he will use it, because he only uses it when 1) you're close enough for it to push you away, 2) it has finished recharging, and 3) he has to use it for defense against one of your attacks.  

Everyone has predicted ST and planned to attack Deva Path around it.  The problem is that no one previously had the ability to cover ground instantaneously.  Minato's ultimate strength is his battlefield maneuverability. It's his specialty.



ARGUS said:


> All you are telling me is that he is very careful,
> nagato uses a large scale ST and each and every clone is poofed in the battlefield,
> chances are  that the real would also be affected


Minato doesn't spam clones like naruto.  Your'e telling me that 2ish clones have poofed.  Big deal.  Each time they poof, Minato has learned about the opponent's abilities and timings.  Thats the goal



ARGUS said:


> kakashi was careful yet despite the aid of people, he died against deva path who is only a measly fraction of nagato,


Kakashi died ONLY because he had to protect people...if kakashi had FTG, Deva path would be fodder.  1-shot KO by Kakashi.  A lesser ninja to Minato.  



ARGUS said:


> No it wont, dont see where people get  the assumption that FTG can somehow resist and negate all damage when its just transportation at another location,
> if minato gets hit by that force, even if  he teleports the affect of that force wont change


you are thinking only of main-body minato being hit with ST.  clones take the damage in the initial fighting, and only after he has determined the timings will his body attack.  he doesn't even have to ever attack with his main body.



ARGUS said:


> just how it  happened with teleporting from kamui,
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



We disagree that Minato will be hit by ST at all.  Like i said before, it's very obvious when ST will occur.  Even if you believe it's instantaneous, it's not infinitely fast, and Nagato doesnt have nearly the reflexes Minato does.  Minato would not attack unless it's in the recharging window.  *ST doesn't land.*



ARGUS said:


> -- His physical attacks cant breach asura,
> -- he cant percieve ST, and he certainly cant tank the stronger ones,
> -- his ninjutsu is uselesss,
> -- his summmons are garbaged
> ...



The physical attacks CAN breach Asura.  Frog-fu can easily destroy anything Asura path's power can create.  Standard sage mode fighting (not even frog-fu) could tear Asura's mechanisms apart.

Already said why ST is not useful vs Minato

Ninjutsu aren't useless, he just has to find a window and attack with both physical and ninjutsu attacks.  And vs preta path, if you really want to go that way, minato could maybe overwhelm it with natural energy like naruto did. 

FTG isn't useless vs ST because it wouldnt hit the person with far superior reflexes.

Pain's summons are garbage.  they are the first thing taken out in each fight.  Not only do the frog summons nearly equal Nagato's, but Minato can help destroy or seal them without too much trouble.  Summons are a distraction at best.  

and i'm not sure about having all of minato's markings located.  is there any precedent for that?



if you think this is a one-sided stomp, then we will definitely never agree, and we should just argue with other people lol.  Minato and his abilities are maybe the strongest threat Nagato will have ever faced.


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## Turrin (Jun 18, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Both of you seem to be saying there's a gap between Minato disappearing and reappearing, and I've never seen one.  The same moment you notice he's gone is the same moment he's somewhere else.  t.


Nope I'm saying that his attack after teleporting is not instant.



> Even if you assume you know him being gone means he's behind you, you're pitting your ability to react against his action, and Minato wins that


Minato's physical speed is not winning out against any Ninja that has decently fast movements or Jutsu activation. Hence why Base-B could reacted to Minato's successive attack.



> What Ei thought he could do doesn't matter, because he never did it. Not then, and not on any other occasion. Before Ei could even spot Minato, he was already ready to stab Bee.


And he did that through confusion. Ei expected Minato to teleport to a FTG-Kunai, he wasn't expecting him to teleport to a marker he placed on B. Again it's a matter of surprise, not a straight blitz. 



> What NarutoX28 is saying is that (excuse my talking to you as if you're not here) is that Bee was caught off guard, sensed Minato appear behind him, drew a sword, and put it to Minato's belly before Minato could move his arm down. .


And that's exactly what happened.



> That doesn't make sense to me, because we saw Minato can move a kunai from his waist to behind Ei faster than Ei can traverse a millimeter at his top speed. He can do that, and hiraishin twice before Ei can complete a punch


Are you saying Minato can toss a Kunai vastly faster than V2-Ei? Because that's what your interpretation seems to be demanding that I believe, since you saying Minato did all of that before Ei could cross a millimeter with his max-speed. If Minato can do that shit why does he need any other Jutsu he just throws a Kunai through everyone's brain and that's GG.

It's much more realistic to believe that Minato simply dropped his Kunai and teleported out of there. As for the Kunai getting behind Ei, Ei was punching at a downward angle, so his body would end up much lower to the ground by the time he followed through with his bunch, hence the Kunai being higher up. That and Kishi fucking up the scaling a bit, which is not at all uncommon for him.

Here you can see the downward trajectory of Ei's punch in the pic, and if you look closely at the top panel you can even see Minato's opening his hand to drop his Kunai, and you can see in the panel when Minato reappears after FTG that the hand his Kunai was in is wide open as if he had dropped the Kunai not having thrown it.





> I'm not basing how I think Minato would do against Nagato around my idea of what happened with Bee, I'm basing what I think would happen with Nagato, and what I think happened with Bee off of what we know about Minato. That should be better for you to know, and while I'm at it, I never implied that hiraishin is useless once you know. Just the opposite, I'm saying that even if you know it doesn't matter. You can deter one attack from one angle, but Minato has an area around his kunai his kunai that he can warp to, and I also highlighted the easy number of options Minato has for follow up attacks if he does abandon the first attempt.


The problem is if the enemy has a way to keep track of where Minato appears, it basically becomes Minato's physical movement speed versus their physical movement speed, or Minato's Jutsu speed versus their Jutsu speed.

Nagato has not only a Dojutsu, but Sensing and Shared vision to keep track of where Minato teleports to. Basically the guy is stacked when it comes to this task. From there it's going to be what's faster Minato's physical Kunai Slash, Rasengan Lunge, etc... or Nagato's nigh instant ST, Fujutsu Kyuuin, S/T Kuchiyose, etc... Which he isn't winning against. And FYI if Nagato lays hands on Minato that is GG as Minato gets soul ripped, so it hardly matters if he marks Nagato.



> You didn't comment on Minato's warp-slash against Obito. You had stated that it's a thing he can't do, and I think that showed he can, unless you're contesting that.


What Warp Slash?



Rocky said:


> What


Please direct your disbelief towards Kishimoto not me:

_DBIV, Shuradou

A dangerous armored weapon that holds the repulsive wish for a person's blood!

One of Rikudo's techniques where arms/weapons are summoned (w/ Kuchiyose) make ones own body into a weapon. To toy with the enemy through the usage of Taijutsu normally humanly impossible one can disgustingly change their shape at will. The enemy suffers a certain death blow. Summoning (again Kuchiyose) unknown bombardment weapons that have yet to be manufactured in the Ninja World, in order to cope with the opponent, different weapons are equipped to match the enemies flow during battle. 

Arms increase, a fierce attack that pressures the enemy. A godsend to take advantage of the chink in the enemies armor through the use of various tactics._

Agreed it's stupid as hell, but facts are facts.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> When did Nagato tank a blade being swung at his neck?



He didn't. But he probably could if he transformed himself into Asura path(asuming it is a kunai swung by Minato).

The thing is, to cut his head clean, Minato needs to catch him in a position where he can't do anything. Because he can activate ST the instant the blade makes contact with his neck.

If Minato opts to cut his head off @ his first blindside attempt, he might succeed, but I don't see that happening in a no knowledge scenario. And once Nagato  experiences Hirashin, I just don't see Minato being able to touch him again.
Hirashin isn't so hard to get around once you learn about it. And shared vision + ST are like the perfect tools to counter Hirashin.


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## LostSelf (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato wouldn't be standing in front of him throwing a punch. He'd be disappearing from his vision.
> 
> It isn't Minato's arm speed versus Nagato's thought speed. It's Minato's arm speed versus Nagato realizing Minato's not there anymore, deciding to turn on his sensing, locating Minato, and _then_ trying Shinra Tensei.
> 
> He'd probably be dead around "deciding to turn on his sensing."



Sensing is there, always. Nagato doesn't say "hey, let me sense". He even sensed when Itachi began to build up chakra for the unavoidable Amaterasu with enough time to to kill Itachi if he desired. There was no reason for him to sense at that exact moment considering he was not the target of anybody.

Sensing allowed Madara to troll Hiraishin and Tobirama. And even if Nagato is not as fast as Madara, Shinra Tensei at point blank certainly is. Nagato would, like Obito, have the time to figure out Minato jumped, enough to assume he's going to be attacked and defend himself.

Minato, on the other hand, won't expect Shinra Tensei. If Kid Obito could. Nagato should be more than capable, considering he senses.

Not only sensing has trolled Hiraishin. Like i said above, Killer Bee, looking from another angle was able to see Minato reappearing and attack. Minato's strike is not Hiraishin, nor unavoidable, otherwise, Bee would've never managed to save Ei.

It's not that Killer Bee is above Juubito, it's the angle where Bee was that allowed him to do so.

Nagato happens to have the two counters Kishimoto has indirectly shown us. And faster versions of Minato have been slower in hand-speed against "Thought-activation" jutsus. Therefore that's another advantage Nagato has in his favor.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Sensing is there, always. Nagato doesn't say "hey, let me sense". He even sensed when Itachi began to build up chakra for the unavoidable Amaterasu with enough time to to kill Itachi if he desired. There was no reason for him to sense at that exact moment considering he was not the target of anybody.
> 
> Sensing allowed Madara to troll Hiraishin and Tobirama. And even if Nagato is not as fast as Madara, Shinra Tensei at point blank certainly is. Nagato would, like Obito, have the time to figure out Minato jumped, enough to assume he's going to be attacked and defend himself.
> 
> ...



Minato didnt strike, nor did he have any intention of striking bee. If he wanted to strike bee down,he would have done what he did to obito and just thrusted his attack instantly into obitos gut upon teleportation. Minato paused and spoke without performing any action, giving bee plenty of time to react. If juubito could not react to being marked, then lets not ridiculously claim bee can. A marked opponent is a dead opponent, stamped with the curse seal of death.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Sensing is there, always. Nagato doesn't say "hey, let me sense". He even sensed when Itachi began to build up chakra for the unavoidable Amaterasu with enough time to to kill Itachi if he desired. There was no reason for him to sense at that exact moment considering he was not the target of anybody.



No it isn't. Sensor types must switch. We saw it with Karin constantly, we saw it with Minato, and apparently we've even see it with Jubi-tier sages like Madara and Kaguya. 

Nagato _not_ being engaged in the fight would be a reason for him to turn sensing on. _Fighting while sensing_ is what was said to be difficult, not standing while sensing...



LostSelf said:


> Nagato would, like Obito, have the time to figure out Minato jumped, enough to assume he's going to be attacked and defend himself



There is no indication that Obito had realized that Minato wasn't there anymore until _after_ he had already been struck with Rasengan. That is probably because Minato is usually capable of reacting to his own jump faster than others.

Obito ending up turning tangible and grabbing the spot where Minato _would have been_ instead of defending himself with Kamui _because_ he hadn't realized that Minato had disappeared until it was too late.



LostSelf said:


> Not only sensing has trolled Hiraishin. Like i said above, Killer Bee, looking from another angle was able to see Minato reappearing and attack.



I _could_ just write that off as an interception feat, which tend to be inconsistent and done for purely dramatic purposes. Surely you don't think Lee's kunai goes faster than Madara's Truth Seekers and Eight Gate Gai speeding towards each other...?

Though even if it's legit and Shared Vision is a good counter, it's not something I see being relevant unless Nagato had full knowledge to summon and set it up right away.


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## Turrin (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> No it isn't. Sensor types must switch. We saw it with Karin constantly, we saw it with Minato, and apparently we've even see it with Jubi-tier sages like Madara and Kaguya.
> 
> Nagato _not_ being engaged in the fight would be a reason for him to turn sensing on. _Fighting while sensing_ is what was said to be difficult, not standing while sensing...


Characters have to turn on their sensing, but where was it ever stated to be difficult for Nagato to sense w/o standing still. Are you equating Nagato to fodder like C? Because if so that is hardly fair.



> There is no indication that Obito had realized that Minato wasn't there anymore until after he had already been struck with Rasengan. That is probably because Minato is usually capable of reacting to his own jump faster than others.


There's a reason Obito stops short on his victory speech, well before Minato hits him with Rasengan:



Obito, "It's my victoー"

Obviously Obito thought he had Minato, and stop short in his speech because he saw Minato vanish. 

Obito didn't get hit because he didn't see Minato vanish until being hit by Rasengan. It's because he didn't figure out where Minato vanished to, until he was hit by Rasengan. 

DBIV clearly outlines that surprise and confusion are the basic purpose of Hiraishin Rank 2 and that's how Minato hit Obito:

"The sudden disappearance of the enemy (yourself, the user), in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, will cause the opponent great confusion, a two-stage attack. It is an evolved variation of space-time ninjutsu!!"

[Not my translation, but it's close enough]



> I could just write that off as an interception feat, which tend to be inconsistent and done for purely dramatic purposes. Surely you don't think Lee's kunai goes faster than Madara's Truth Seekers and Eight Gate Gai speeding towards each other...?


Claiming inconsistency makes no sense when we saw B consistently react to Hiraishin. It wasn't just the tentacle and it wasn't just the sword behind his back, it's both of them coming together to paint a consistant picture of B having the necessary speed to react to Hiraishin so long as he knows where Minato warped to. Which is in turn consistent with everything we've seen in the manga. As once again Minato has to launch a physical attack after using Hiraishin, and Minato's physical attack does not travel at Hiraishin-speeds and can be intercepted by most of the more speedy/skilled shinobi. It's just that the B tentacle example illustrates that clearer than most other interactions, as it slows down time and shows panel by panel how Minato goes about using Hiraishin:





> Though even if it's legit and Shared Vision is a good counter, it's not something I see being relevant unless Nagato had full knowledge to summon and set it up right away.


He most likely would set it up right away to counter his mobility issues against an unknown enemy. Though even if he doesn't for some stupid reason, he still has sensing to tie him over until he pulls out a summon, which should be very early into the match given how he's used one or more early on every other fight he's fought.

And as I already told you, even if Minato by some miracle does mark him he still can't do shit to him due to Deva, Ashura, and HG Realms.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Characters have to turn on their sensing, but where was it ever stated to be difficult for Nagato to sense w/o standing still. Are you equating Nagato to fodder like C? Because if so that is hardly fair.



Nagato is much stronger than C, but why is he a better sensor? Minato is tiers above Karin, but she shits on him in terms of sensing feats.

I don't think sensor types tend to battle with it on. If you disagree, then why don't you post a scan of Nagato utilizing his sensing to cover his blindspots, because he certainly wasn't doing that against Itachi.



Turrin said:


> Obviously Obito thought he had Minato, and stop short in his speech because he saw Minato vanish.



Obito stopped his speech in the panel _before_ Minato actually vanished, didn't he?



> DBIV clearly outlines that surprise and confusion are the basic purpose of Hiraishin Rank 2 and that's how Minato hit Obito:
> 
> "The sudden disappearance of the enemy (yourself, the user), in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, will cause the opponent great confusion, a two-stage attack. It is an evolved variation of space-time ninjutsu!!"



...

"The sudden disappearance of the enemy, *in addition to* receiving an unexpected attack, will cause (_*results in*_) great confusion."

Sudden disappearance + subsequent attack = confusion. Obito wasn't hit because he was confused. _He was confused because he was hit._



Turrin said:


> As once again Minato has to launch a physical attack after using Hiraishin, and Minato's physical attack does not travel at Hiraishin-speeds and can be intercepted by most of the more speedy/skilled shinobi.



Unless he warps on top of them. [1] 

There's also _this_, which doesn't bode well for Nagato if he's marked, regardless of whether or not he's a sensor. 



Turrin said:


> He most likely would set it up right away to counter his *mobility issues* against an unknown enemy.



Which Nagato is this?



Turrin said:


> And as I already told you, even if Minato by some miracle does mark him he still can't do shit to him due to Deva, Ashura, and HG Realms.



Human & Deva realms aren't fast enough, and the Asura healing thing doesn't make any sense. I saw the entry you posted, but which part of it refers to healing decapitation?


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## StickaStick (Jun 19, 2015)

That line is actually kind of confusing. The way I read it was: 

*"The sudden disappearance of the enemy... will cause great confusion [in addition to receiving an unexpected attack]". *

So not only will it cause great confusion (stage 1), but a subsequent attack (stage 2) to follow. It basically comes down to how the sentence is structured as it could be interpreted a couple different ways. 

I kind of find the interpretation above more plausible because it seems to me that the confusion would manifest from, in this case, Minato disappearing because now Obito's lost his vision of him. Once Obito's been hit with the attack he now knows where Minato is so why would be confused because of that? And if Minato chooses to jump again immediately so Obito doesn't know where he is, then once again the confusion is being created by the "disappearance" and not an attack. Could be wrong obviously, but this makes the most sense to me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Hirashin is good for blindsiding the opponent, catching them offguard. Minato mainly teleports behind his opponents, so his opponent can't see or react properly.

Nagato with shared vision can keep tabs on him all the time. Even if by a chance he doesn't use shared vision, and Minato gets behind him, ST is always faster than Minato can physically strike. 

You may argue that Obito's phasing is the same as ST, which would be more or less right, but then Obito was counter attacked and had 0 knowledge on Hirashin(for some reason he didn't think Minato could teleport to the kunai that just went past him). 
Unless Minato can finish off Nagato with his first attempt(which is not likely) his chances will get worse with every consecutive attempt.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Minato didnt strike, nor did he have any intention of striking bee. If he wanted to strike bee down,he would have done what he did to obito and just thrusted his attack instantly into obitos gut upon teleportation. Minato paused and spoke without performing any action, giving bee plenty of time to react. If juubito could not react to being marked, then lets not ridiculously claim bee can. A marked opponent is a dead opponent, stamped with the curse seal of death.



 Manga seems to suggest otherwise as Bee could react to Minato's surprise attack on Ei before he even lunged his Kunai at Ei's back. That even places Young Bee's reflexes above Minato and would allow Young Bee to react to Minato provided he can anticipate the location of where Minato warps to.

 Minato only paused because Young Bee managed to react to his attack and Kishimoto made it clear how Bee reacted to the attack accordingly as there was no expression mark indicating shock while there was for that Kumo Fodder. 

 Juubito not being able to react to being marked has nothing to do with Minato's ability to tag someone. You have to take into consideration that Juubito was Mindless, meaning his ability to think and react to something to attacks is diminished. There's also the fact that Juubito was portrayed to be invincible and so it would be logical for Juubito to assume that he's practically invincible based on the idea that he is the Juubi's Jinchuuriki, so he likely believed that any offense that the Kages attempted were useless. It makes sense as Juubito was revealed to have left himself unprotected at the rear because he simply never believed that the gang could penetrate his defenses. Once he did make a more conscious effort to protect the rear, even BM Minato and BSM Naruto couldn't penetrate his defenses. That, and Tobirama tagged him. Whenever Minato attempted to strike him down, he was simply fodderized and tagged Post-Hiraishin Warp and that was in his Kyuubi Cloak Mode.

 So basically, Juubito had no trouble reacting to KCM Minato's Hiraishin. If that wasn't the case, then Minato wouldn't have been tagged, plain and simple.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 19, 2015)

Nagato activating aura or deva path before minato can strike a marked nagato is the most bull ive ever read on hear. Not even a juubi jin can do that.

Even if non marked, only someone with sage sensing in addition to the physical prowess could avoid a hiraishin no no dan. Someone who lacks mobility and only has standard sensing, isnt reacting to that. Only way he does is by repelling kunai before they reach him. Which leaves him exposed of the 5 second interval.


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## thechickensage (Jun 19, 2015)

This argument has boiled down to
1.  Some think that Shinra tensei is instant, travels faster than Minato can react, and that knowing the timings for recharging doesnt matter.  
2.  Differences in opinion of the strength of Asura realm.  Whether a Kunai + sage mode + frog-fu can even hurt the armor 
3.  Differences in opinion over Nagato's ability to react to Minato appearing right behind him.  Some think that minato wont have enough time to get his attack in before Nagato reacts
4.  People thinking that minato will always use his real body to warp next to minato while ST is fully charged and not use clones to determine timing
5.  Some people dont think Minato has enough time or ingenuity to determine nagato's timings and abilities
those seem to be the main points of contention


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

> Are you saying Minato can toss a Kunai vastly faster than V2-Ei? Because that's what your interpretation seems to be demanding that I believe, since you saying Minato did all of that before Ei could cross a millimeter with his max-speed. If Minato can do that shit why does he need any other Jutsu he just throws a Kunai through everyone's brain and that's GG.
> 
> It's much more realistic to believe that Minato simply dropped his Kunai and teleported out of there. As for the Kunai getting behind Ei, Ei was punching at a downward angle, so his body would end up much lower to the ground by the time he followed through with his bunch, hence the Kunai being higher up. That and Kishi fucking up the scaling a bit, which is not at all uncommon for him.
> 
> Here you can see the downward trajectory of Ei's punch in the pic, and if you look closely at the top panel you can even see Minato's opening his hand to drop his Kunai, and you can see in the panel when Minato reappears after FTG that the hand his Kunai was in is wide open as if he had dropped the Kunai not having thrown it.



This is easily countered by following Ei's hand, and showing that he'd be needing to punching at crotch level for your interpretation to make sense.

But then you make an excuse of scaling and art errors.  I don't have any reason to believe he made Ei too tall or too short in those panels.

I do, however, have good reason to believe the fastest man on Earth is really fast.  Not toss the kunai, lift his arm and leave it there.  That's how fast he strikes.



> Obito, "It's my victoー"
> 
> Obviously Obito thought he had Minato, and stop short in his speech because he saw Minato vanish.



Or Obito got cut off mid sentence by a rasengan to the back.



> The problem is if the enemy has a way to keep track of where Minato appears, it basically becomes Minato's physical movement speed versus their physical movement speed, or Minato's Jutsu speed versus their Jutsu speed.



Minato still wins that, unless you're Super Madara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> That line is actually kind of confusing. The way I read it was:
> 
> *"The sudden disappearance of the enemy... will cause great confusion [in addition to receiving an unexpected attack]". *
> 
> ...



You're confused because the opponent is not there and also there's a knife dragging across your throat.  It gives you a wtf moment.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I do, however, have good reason to believe the fastest man on Earth is really fast.



Did you hear? He got retconned to the "Yellow Confusion."


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Manga seems to suggest otherwise as Bee could react to Minato's surprise attack on Ei before he even lunged his Kunai at Ei's back. That even places Young Bee's reflexes above Minato and would allow Young Bee to react to Minato provided he can anticipate the location of where Minato warps to.
> 
> Minato only paused because Young Bee managed to react to his attack and Kishimoto made it clear how Bee reacted to the attack accordingly as there was no expression mark indicating shock while there was for that Kumo Fodder.
> 
> ...



Minato could have warped.  He blocked Juubito's stick with his kunai, which means he could have instead chosen to warp.  He didn't think his kunai would be cut through.



> That even places Young Bee's reflexes above Minato and would allow Young Bee to react to Minato



You don't find this to be wrong?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Minato could have warped.  He blocked Juubito's stick with his kunai, which means he could have instead chosen to warp.  He didn't think his kunai would be cut through.



 He did warp and we saw what happened. He got his arm chopped off and then got tagged.

 But if Minato warped at that instant which is highly unlikely considering the mental reaction didn't occur until Juubito almost completed his strike, then it still would've been meaningless as he wouldn't be able to perform anything offensively anyways.




> You don't find this to be wrong?



 Not really. 

 He managed to perform a far greater range of motion before Minato could have simply lunged a kunai at Ei's back. That's superior reaction speed right there.


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## StickaStick (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You're confused because the opponent is not there and also there's a knife dragging across your throat.  It gives you a wtf moment.


Expect "and" is not being used here. The description as provided states "in addition" to receiving the attack, "great confusion" will be caused.

* in addition
phrase of addition
1.
as an extra person, thing, or circumstance.*

The way you phrase it makes it seem as though the "unexpected attack" part is essential to the result of confusion, when it's implied to be something extra added on to it.

Again, I may be wrong in my interpretation and this could also be a faulty translation, but this seems like the most reasonable explanation to me.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 19, 2015)

Minato doesn't dissapear and appear. Both things happen simultaneously. So when Obito is surprised @ his "disspearance" Minato is already on top of him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did you hear? He got retconned to the "Yellow Confusion."





It's missing the majesty of Minato.

Minato is fast enough to blitz pretty much anyone with shunshins and slashes, but he instead waits for the opponent to leave an opening or be off guard.  Then he uses his insane reflexes to blitz in that moment, and does it at a blind angle, and uses his vastly superior attack speed to deliver a sure kill.  Minato starts at an advantage, and then further stacks the opponent with negatives.  If the opponent reduces a few of the negatives, they're still at a major disadvantage.

It's the same thing Tobirama does with hiraishin-giri.  When the guard is at their lowest, he murders them with his fastest surprise warp slash.

The fact that they're smart about it instead LOLOLOL sword blitzing like  Crazy Sauce doesn't mean they're slower than Sasuke who doesn't bother.  It does means the eliminate any low percentage chance of failure, that tends to arise in Sasuke matches.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Expect "and" is not being used here. The description as provided states "in addition" to receiving the attack, "great confusion" will be caused.
> 
> * in addition
> phrase of addition
> ...



If you have an extra person, you don't have one person and then another person.  You have two people at the same time, one of which happens to be redundant.  

If you have additional stock in the back, you have your stock, and at the same moment you have more stock in the back.

The phrase you'd want is followed by, subsequent, or something like that.  We had one person followed by another person.  We have this stock, followed by more stock coming in the back.  We have the surprise of Minato's disappearance, followed by the confusion of a subsequent strike.


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## StickaStick (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If you have an extra person, you don't have one person and then another person.  You have two people at the same time, one of which happens to be redundant.
> 
> If you have additional stock in the back, you have your stock, and at the same moment you have more stock in the back.
> 
> The phrase you'd want is followed by, subsequent, or something like that.  We had one person followed by another person.  We have this stock, followed by more stock coming in the back.  We have the surprise of Minato's disappearance, followed by the confusion of a subsequent strike.


Expect when that one person happens to be Mr. Great-Confusion and the other Mrs. Surprise-Attack, you can't combine the two and refer to the group as the Confusions. They're separate, which you've seem to have acknowledged here with your stock and people analogy, but forget that not all stock is created equal (common, preferred, etc.) and thus cannot be ground/referred to in the same manner.


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## Six (Jun 19, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Nagato activating aura or deva path before minato can strike a marked nagato is the most bull ive ever read on hear. Not even a juubi jin can do that.
> 
> Even if non marked, only someone with sage sensing in addition to the physical prowess could avoid a hiraishin no no dan. Someone who lacks mobility and only has standard sensing, isnt reacting to that. Only way he does is by repelling kunai before they reach him. Which leaves him exposed of the 5 second interval.



Nagato blitzed Bee though when he was making Bee and Naruto his bitch.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

The sentence combined them, implying either is sufficient to cause confusion.

Suddenly being hurt can be confusing. 

The opponent vanishes, and at the same time you're hurt, and you don't know what just happened.  You couldn't keep track of anything.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Once Obito's been hit with the attack he now knows where Minato is so why would be confused because of that?



Probably because Minato's sudden change of positon was not what caused confusion. The confusion stems from _being hit._ While screaming in pain, Obito was likely wondering how Minato hit him in the first place.

Same deal with how Minato later broke his control of the fox. Obito wasn't confused and surprised that Minato had left his vision. He was confused and surprised that Minato had _stabbed him and placed a hand on his chest._

Ditto with the parallel involving Jubito & Naruto. The surprise/confusion comes _after_ the attack is already wedged in your back.


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## StickaStick (Jun 19, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The sentence combined them, implying either is sufficient to cause confusion.
> 
> Suddenly being hurt can be confusing.
> 
> The opponent vanishes, and at the same time you're hurt, and you don't know what just happened.  You couldn't keep track of anything.


It can be combined in multiple ways, which is what I originally wrote. The way I sated it is just as valid.

I'm not saying your wrong, but the fact that this element of the sentence (_in addition to receiving an unexpected attack_) is put in-between two commas and not emphasized as an essential element of the resulting confusion not only doesn't convince me of your stance, but leads me to believe just what it suggests: that it it is something added on to the resulting confusion, which is what the sentence is actually focusing on; i.e., the sudden disappearance and the resulting confusion.



Rocky said:


> Probably because Minato's sudden change of positon was not what caused confusion. The confusion stems from _being hit._ While screaming in pain, Obito was likely wondering how Minato hit him in the first place.


Except that after Obito has been hit his first thought isn't about being hit, but about how Minato was able to teleport to his kunai which resulted in the sudden disappearance. 



> Same deal with how Minato later broke his control of the fox. Obito wasn't confused and surprised that Minato had left his vision. He was confused and surprised that Minato had _stabbed him and placed a hand on his chest._


Saying left his vision was a mistake on my part. I meant to infer that after Minato jumps he is no longer in the same spot as previously, which as in your example here still applies because Obtio is once again surprised that Minato had used his FTG again to jump right on him and that he had previously been marked. Losing control of the Kyuubi was surprising as well but for a different reason, as in he didn't know Minato possessed that capability. 

If Minato had jumped to right in front of Obito as he did here and didn't attack, Obito still would have been confused because of the sudden jump and appearance right in front of him, not knowing he had been marked.



> Ditto with the parallel involving Jubito & Naruto. The surprise/confusion comes _after_ the attack is already wedged in your back.


He was surprised because of Naruto's and Tobirama's sudden jump, the attack is merely insult to injury, not a perquisite to the surprise. We can't even tell for sure here because the jump happened without it being shown and Obito offers no thoughts on the matter.

Anyway I don't care to discuss this further until we can get some clarification on what exactly the description is saying.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

_"The sudden disappearance of the enemy, in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, results in great confusion."
_
If you're trying to say that the "unexpected attack" is a result of confusion, then what's quoted above is wrong.

What's quoted above is Kishi trying to tell us that the "sudden disappearance" and the "unexpected attack" go hand in hand. To put it in your own words, what's in between the commas (the attack) is "added on" to what comes before it (the sudden disappearance), _not_ what comes after it (the confusion).

_"The difficulty of the exam, in addition to the sheer number of questions, made it tough for Jimmy to finish on time."_

The exam does not have alot of questions because Jimmy didn't finish it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Probably because Minato's sudden change of positon was not what caused confusion. The confusion stems from _being hit._ While screaming in pain, Obito was likely wondering how Minato hit him in the first place.



 Actually it was. If that wasn't the case, then Obito wouldn't have paused his sentence the instant Minato disappeared prior to being slammed by that Rasengan. 

 Of course, it also had to do with Obito not even expecting Minato to warp to the Kunai that he just threw which caused the confusion in the first place considering Minato has only used his Hiraishin defensively up until now. The confusion that was caused by that is simply what caused the strike to be unexpected in the first place.

_after_

 Hell, check back here. Minato has a Kunai placed here which means Obito likely assumed he would warp over to this location yet he didn't, so it had nothing to do with the Rasengan, it had more to do with Minato outplaying Obito here as he warped somewhere that Obito never expected him to warp to.

 Nagato however, has Shared Vision, so he has a higher advantage as he can easily cover his blindspot and detect Minato's attempt of blindsiding him with a Rasengan whereas Obito couldn't. Nagato can basically cover a larger area with his Rinnegan's Shared Vision which gives him the upper-hand here.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Actually it was. If that wasn't the case, then Obito wouldn't have paused his sentence the instant Minato disappeared prior to being slammed by that Rasengan



You think it was:

"Gotch..."

"Where'd he go!?

*Rasengan slam*

"AAGHHH"


But it was more like "GotchAGHHH?!" with the Rasengan slam happening somewhere in there.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 19, 2015)

Obito's shock had more to do with warping to the Kunai as Obito outright stated. This is because Minato always used his Kunai defensively instead of using it offensively. It had nothing to do with slamming him with a Rasengan. If it did, then it would have to do with failing to perceive where Minato would warp to, hence causing an "unexpected" attack, but the confusion had nothing to do with the Rasengan.

 But if what you're saying is true, you'd have to be implying that Minato's strike speed is almost instantaneous and considering Young Bee can cover a greater range of motion in comparison to Minato lunging his Kunai into Ei's back as well as the fact that Obito can already easily perceive Minato's Shunshin speed, I highly doubt that that's the case.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Obito's shock had more to do with warping to the Kunai as Obito outright stated.







They're part of the same utterance.  I used to think like you, that Obito had processed Minato blitzing him. But a poster proved me wrong. Using his words, Obito was literally processing the thought that he'd won when a Rasengan entered his back.

His statement about the thrown kunai was him realizing _how_ he had been struck, which is why that "moment of confusion" the Databook probably happened while Obito was screaming in pain, _before_ he realized how he'd been struck.



NarutoX28 said:


> But if what you're saying is true, you'd have to be implying that Minato's strike speed is almost instantaneous



It isn't instantaneous, but coming out of Hiraishin, _it's_ _pretty_ _close._



NarutoX28 said:


> and considering Young Bee can cover a greater range of motion in comparison to Minato lunging his Kunai into Ei's back



I reread the fight a few times.

B's feats against Minato were performed with _prediction_, not speed. Minato jumped to a tree to avoid A, but B likely saw Minato flick that marker above A's head. At that point, he put two and two together and sent a tentacle speeding towards A so that when Minato got back and caught that marker the tentacle would hopefully get there and knock A out of the way.

_You_ think B somehow sent a tentacle across that distance in response to Minato landing on A and saved him before Minato could bring his arm down, right? Well that's wrong. If that were the case, _then why didn't B aim to hit Minato instead of A? _I'll tell you; it's because B was trying to get A out of the way _while Minato was still up on that tree._ He was predicting what would happen. _Thinking ahead._ That's it.

It's the same deal later on. B has his sword in place _before_ Minato gets there. A forced Minato to jump, and B (correctly) guessed where Minato would land.


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## thechickensage (Jun 19, 2015)

Do people think that Nagato's does not need to recharge his ST?  The pro-Nagatoans only mention that ST will hit, but dont seem to be considering the recharge time.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 19, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Do people think that Nagato's does not need to recharge his ST?  The pro-Nagatoans only mention that ST will hit, but dont seem to be considering the recharge time.



How does Minato survive the first blast of a powerful Shinra Tensei? What's more how will he ever see it coming? Sensors and ocular powers couldn't. 

No-one mentions the recharge time, except those who argue for Minato, because it is doubtful that the recharge time will be a factor.

Minato isn't tank... the force behind a powerful Shinra Tensei would just end him once it hits him.


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## Rocky (Jun 19, 2015)

You must be one of those who thinks Nagato's ST "killed" Edo Itachi.


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## thechickensage (Jun 19, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> How does Minato survive the first blast of a powerful Shinra Tensei? What's more how will he ever see it coming? Sensors and ocular powers couldn't.
> 
> No-one mentions the recharge time, except those who argue for Minato, because it is doubtful that the recharge time will be a factor.
> 
> Minato isn't tank... the force behind a powerful Shinra Tensei would just end him once it hits him.



Clones.  Same way kakashi figured out the timings.  Minato stays back and uses clones to determine timings

Also, how fast do you think ST travels?  You know that it pushes dust in the air, creates wind, damages the ground, etc.  How could you not see the concussive wave as it comes?

ST I agree is basically equal to a loss for any shinobi who dont have teleportation.  But people like Minato and Tobirama should be able to avoid it.

As for recharge not mattering, Kakashi died for the only purpose of protecting the information about Deva Path's recharge timing.  It was the one key piece of info needed to defeat him.  

The plan would be to figure out the timing/recharge rate while keeping a distance, and then attack after Nagato's has spent his energy


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 19, 2015)

Kyuubi chakra heals and restores, and makes you super durable.  Enough that Naruto could tank Nagato's ST.  So assuming Minato gets hit, he full restores and then becomes durable enough to tank anymore.  As if he'd ever get hit again, or in the first place.

I have no reason to think Minato would ever get touched, or that Nagato could react to him.  Even if you think Naruto is faster than base Minato because of KCM, which is arguable outside of shunshin, KCM equalizes that aspect, and puts Minato way above Nagato.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 19, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Clones.  Same way kakashi figured out the timings.  Minato stays back and uses clones to determine timings



This is Nagato using Shinra Tensei much stronger than a distanced God Realm. Nagato showed his casual STs are far more powerful than Tendo's... that's why Itachi turned to dust.



> Also, how fast do you think ST travels?  You know that it pushes dust in the air, creates wind, damages the ground, etc.  How could you not see the concussive wave as it comes?



Except no target has ever been able to anticipate it. It is just that fast. Once Nagato wills it, it hits by distorting the Shinra Obiki as the databook calls it. 
More chakra = more power and it was described, in the DB, as a jutsu which will always catch the victim off-guard. It has proved to live up to that hype.
Not to mention Nagato's ST would be much faster.

The effects such as the wind and damage to the ground only occur after the jutsu hits its target.



> ST I agree is basically equal to a loss for any shinobi who dont have teleportation.  But people like Minato and Tobirama should be able to avoid it.



Minato showed that momentum is carried on, it doesn't disappear when he teleports.

Also how will he avoid a jutsu he'll only know is used when he's hit?



> As for recharge not mattering, Kakashi died for the only purpose of protecting the information about Deva Path's recharge timing.  It was the one key piece of info needed to defeat him.



To beat Tendo who had a slower and less powerful version of Shinra Tensei compared to a healthy Nagato.



> The plan would be to figure out the timing/recharge rate while keeping a distance, and then attack after Nagato's has spent his energy



The plan for Nagato would be to take this guy out with one powerful Shinra Tensei and use other powers such as Demon Realm and Animal Realm to buy time for the recharge time.

Nagato won't be using just one power, there'll be no way for Minato to figure out the recharge time since, unlike Tendo, Nagato will be using other powers Minato needs to figure out. That's assuming he'll even survive the first blast of Shinra Tensei. 

Pain's abilities, and the limits of each, would not have been figured the way they had been if the bodies had more than one power. Minato's fighting a body with more than one power who uses faster and stronger versions of each Path.


----------



## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Figuring out Nagato's jutsus is *obviously the key to beating him*.  I dont even know how you can say that.


And i have already told you that figuring out isnt helping minato, 



> The larger the size, the longer the recovery time.


Yeah and the larger the size, the more damaged minato will get, till he eventually gets pasted 



> Minato isn't stupid.  *And ST is extremely obvious*.


am i supposed to take this seriously here? 
not a single person in the manga has been able to anticipate or perceive it in any way whatsoever, 
the attack itself has no shape or form, and has no noticeable chakra built up that sensors could pick out, so NO,
saying that minato isnt stupid isnt cutting it here 



> Even if you don't telegraph the attack, the ST itself pushes matter out of the way.  Meaning dust and rocks and dirt.  You can see a huge pressure wave as it pushes.  It doesn't travel at light speed.


Except ST can be pinpointed at a specific target, just how nagato did at the boss toads, 
if it gets pinpointed at minato, then the latter gets a blind force knocking him and him only kilometers away 




> Even if it were instantaneous (and idk why you think that),


Its *execution speed* is, as its based instantly on thought, 


> it doesn't matter because 1)* you can see the concussion wave  extremely easily* (how else did readers see it in the manga?),


Uhhh No, no one has the means to see something that doesnt even have a form
the readers saw it because the same wave blew away the targets, and we see the victim being blown away 
so again, not this does matter,significantly 



> and 2) even if he can't predict it *(which he could), *


Yet not one argument from you which supports that 



> *he only has to react to it.  *Meaning, escape the initial push, then warp in instantly and attack


Uhh and all of a suddden minato has instant reaction speed now? 
and all of a sudden minato can see where exactly this intangible force is targetted and how large its AOE is? and would have the reaction speed to evade it before anything happens to him at all? 
please stop 



> People predict it all the time.  Kakashi predicted it by using the chains to give Deva Path no other choice but to respond with ST.


Uhh he used the chains so that he gets restrained, and waiting for choji/chouza to attack him
doesnt mean that he predicted it, 
once deva activated ST, we saw kakashi at this state, 
*Spoiler*: __ 







and we also saw that choza was dead, 



> It's actually very easy to predict when he will use it, because he only uses it when 1) you're close enough for it to push you away,


but the instant force would still push them away regardless of what you think 


> 2) it has finished recharging, and 3) he has to use it for defense against one of your attacks.


too bad that nagato has other defenses too such as summons and asura path, 
none of these strategies are even helping minato survive ST considering how the attaack has one shotted far more durable and sturdier targets from jus deva path  

[QUOTE}
Everyone has predicted ST and planned to attack Deva Path around it.  [/QUOTE]
No, no one has predicted it, 
planning =/= predictiing  in any way shape or form, 



> The problem is that no one previously had the ability to cover ground instantaneously.  Minato's ultimate strength is his battlefield maneuverability. It's his specialty.


sigh, this isnt working due to 3 reasons, 
1.  ST has nigh instant execution time,  the instant it gets activated minato sees an invisible force knocking him away, 
2. MInato doesnt have the reactions to react to it, nor can he notice its prep meaning that hes not evading it 
3. a larger ST would encompass all his markings and one shot him 



> Minato doesn't spam clones like naruto.  Your'e telling me that 2ish clones have poofed.  Big deal.  Each time they poof, Minato has learned about the opponent's abilities and timings.  Thats the goal


All youre bringing is  that ''minato will learn about the opponents abilities and timings'' 
not only does this hold little to no merit  but the fact that minato wont even llive long enough to even land a touch on nagato makes this impossible, 
not only that but knowing =/= being able to counter it, 
massive difference, minato has no such counter to a large ST that knocks him kilometers away and breaks every damn bone in his body 

2 clones have  poofed? big deal? 
all that minato would know is that a force has knocked him out, and that it has said coold down, 
does that mean that minato can get back up and attack before  the cooldown is finished? 
no it doesnt since he doesnt have any special durability that lets him survive it with no such damage and get back up, 



> Kakashi died ONLY because he had to protect people...


Protect people? 
what was it exactly that left him in that place, 
ill answer, an ST with minisucle magnitude, 
using kamui just made it worse  for him thats why he had to die, 
but the only one he was  trying to protect at the start was himself, 



> if kakashi had FTG, Deva path would be fodder.  1-shot KO by Kakashi.  A lesser ninja to Minato.


Too bad he doesnt, 
and if kakashi had FTG they would be on par with each other, and do exactly the same against nagato as minato would, since neither have the reactions to react to ST 



> you are thinking only of main-body minato being hit with ST.  clones take the damage in the initial fighting, and only after he has determined the timings will his body attack.  he doesn't even have to ever attack with his main body.


And i have already explained why this isnt cuttting it,
one ST is used, all of the clones are poofed, 
once that is happened, nagato can either sense the hidden body, or locate it with his shared vision rinnegan, 
if minato attemppts to play cat and mouse game then a large scale ST mops the battlefield and him along with it, 
and in no way in hell can he outlast nagato, so he loses that way too 



> We disagree that Minato will be hit by ST at all.  Like i said before, it's very obvious when ST will occur.


no its not obvious when ST will occur, no one in the manga  has been able to percieve it 

minato is no such exception, pal 




> Even if you believe it's instantaneous, it's not infinitely fast, and Nagato doesnt have nearly the reflexes Minato does.


does it matter that nagatos reactions are slower than nagato, no it doesnt,, why? 
because ST is fast enough and invisible to an extent where minato isnt reacting to it all, 
so  no matter whhat minato does, he gets caught 



> Minato would not attack unless it's in the recharging window.  *ST doesn't land.*


and i have already explained why he isnt forming seals making clones and attacking before the cooldown runs out, 
hell thats if he even gets back up from the first ST, 




> The physical attacks CAN breach Asura.  Frog-fu can easily destroy anything Asura path's power can create.  Standard sage mode fighting (not even frog-fu) could tear Asura's mechanisms apart.


Am i supposed to take this seriously? 
minato is not using SM at all, 
not only does it take him far too long to knead the senjutsu chakra but he ran out after a single rasengan, 
he would have to stand still for a significantly large amount of time meaning that hes a sitting duck waiting to be pasted througout  the battlefield, 

nice try though 




> Already said why ST is not useful vs Minato


The only argument you are bringing is that minato will play smart 



> *Ninjutsu aren't useless*, he just has to find a window and attack with both physical and ninjutsu attacks.


Preta path says hi



> And vs preta path, if you really want to go that way, minato could maybe overwhelm it with natural energy like naruto did.


Lmao, minato sucks at SM, he would never ever use it in battle, 
and i have explained why its the worst thing for him to use it in battle 



> FTG isn't useless vs ST because it wouldnt hit the person with far superior reflexes.


and minato doesnt have the reactions to react to it, so try again 



> Pain's summons are garbage.  they are the first thing taken out in each fight.  Not only do the frog summons nearly equal Nagato's, but Minato can help destroy or seal them without too much trouble.  Summons are a distraction at best.


Too bad that minato isnt coming out with the toad army right from the start, 
which gets one shotted by ST just how it did in canon,
and from then on its minato vs nagato + 10 other summons with 10 eyes, 
minato practically has 0 firepower adn cerebrus alone is a huge pain in the ass,
nagato hides himself in chameleon and sneak catches him off the planet 
or he can fly up with bird to create a distance and use it blow him up



> and i'm not sure about having all of minato's markings located.  is there any precedent for that?


he has the rinnegan to locate them all 



> if you think this is a one-sided stomp, then we will definitely never agree, and we should just argue with other people lol.  *Minato and his abilities are maybe the strongest threat Nagato will have ever faced*.


Pein vs Minato is a better matchup, nagato is atleast a tier ahead of him,
as for the bold Lol, 
Nagato nearly killed 2 perfect jins, whilst being crippled, 
and it took 2 perfect jins and an edo MS user to take him out, 
minato is in no way superior to this trio


----------



## Turrin (Jun 19, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Nagato is much stronger than C, but why is he a better sensor? Minato is tiers above Karin, but she shits on him in terms of sensing feats.


Is Karin better than Minato. He seemed to sense Naruto across hundreds of miles. But ether way the major difference between your example is that Karin was actually hyped up as an elite sensor, while C is just a sensor with no notable feats. And quite frankly no other sensor had the issues C did.



> I don't think sensor types tend to battle with it on. If you disagree, then why don't you post a scan of Nagato utilizing his sensing to cover his blindspots,


Well Your kind of just wrong, considering that Jiraiya posits that the Pain bodies could all be using sensing when fighting against him, and he wasn't at all shocked about that idea and nether were Ma/Pa. So it's obviously not some strange concept for sensors to fight while sensing. And from what I can recall only C had that issue.



> Obito stopped his speech in the panel before Minato actually vanished, didn't he?


I don't see how there is confusion when I posted the panels.  Minato vanished off panel sometime between the panel where Obito stopped short and the successive panel. It's very clear that Minato vanishing is why he stopped short of his victory speech, I mean come on Rocky.



> "The sudden disappearance of the enemy, in addition to receiving an unexpected attack, will cause (results in) great confusion."
> 
> Sudden disappearance + subsequent attack = confusion. Obito wasn't hit because he was confused. He was confused because he was hit.


Rocky he was confused because Minato hit him _*and*_ Minato vanished. It's both things, I.E. "Obito didn't get hit because he didn't see Minato vanish until being hit by Rasengan. It's because he didn't figure out where Minato vanished to, until he was hit by Rasengan."

So as I said the basic mechanics of Hiraishin is based around confusing the enemy and catching them by surprise, not just straight blitzing.



> Unless he warps on top of them. [1]
> 
> There's also this, which doesn't bode well for Nagato if he's marked, regardless of whether or not he's a sensor.


Even when Minato has the mark on someone he still needs to launch a physical attack afterwards. We see that with both B and Obito multiple times:
_before_
_before_
_before_

Also with Tobirama:
_before_

And that's the whole reason they bothered with and the whole point of Hiraishin Goshuun Miwashi etc..Jutsu, that it allows the users to teleport the enemy directly into an attack, as otherwise Tobirama would have just teleported Sasuke and Naruto's attacks directly into Obito, if normal Hiraishin can accomplish the same thing . 

DBIV, "Receiving an ally's attack, two hirashin users activate the jutsu simultaneously, the damage is substituted with the target"

The instances your citing just off panel the physical attack portion



> There's also this, which doesn't bode well for Nagato if he's marked, regardless of whether or not he's a sensor.


Obito let himself be hit, because he didn't think they could damage him. That's why he's not shocked when they hit him only shocked when Rasengan damages him:
_before_

This is also why later on Obito is able to react to and defend Hiraishin + BM-Naruto/BM-Minato's attacks, which would not be possible if he couldn't react to Hiraishin + SM-Naruto's attack:
_before_



> Which Nagato is this?


I assume it's a living version of Edo-Nagato. As otherwise Minato is fighting Pain-Rikudo, before he ever gets to Nagato..



> Human & Deva realms aren't fast enough, and the Asura healing thing doesn't make any sense.


Deva Realm and HG realm are both faster than Base-B, so yes they are. 



> I saw the entry you posted, but which part of it refers to healing decapitation?


Minato has never gone for decapitation in the entire series, so this is basically as unfair of an assertion on your part as me saying Nagato starts with CST and just wipes the map instantly.



Rocky said:


> They're part of the same utterance.



To bad that bullshit doesn't exist in the raw. So Yeah-- How-- About-- No!

But nice try Rocky


----------



## Rocky (Jun 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And quite frankly no other sensor had the issues C did.



Well, you could help your argument by showing me Nagato covering his blindspots with sensing. 

But, since all there is are instances of Itachi making a fool of him with ambushes, you should realize that there isn't anything you should show me.



Turrin said:


> Well Your kind of just wrong, considering that Jiraiya posits that the Pain bodies could all be using sensing when fighting against him, and he wasn't at all shocked about that idea and nether were Ma/Pa.



Jiraiya notes that even if the bodies were sensing types they _shouldn't_ be able to cover their blindspots so effectively.

I don't see how this is helping you.



Turrin said:


> I don't see how there is confusion when I posted the panels.  Minato vanished off panel sometime between the panel where Obito stopped short and the successive panel.



What are you on? Minato vanished on panel, and Obito's "Gotch-" comes before he went anywhere, so your interpretation fails.

_My_ interpretation is that he never actually did stop saying "gotcha," but was interrupted by Rasengan being slammed into his back on the next page, and that interpretation works. 



Turrin said:


> So as I said the basic mechanics of Hiraishin is based around confusing the enemy and catching them by surprise, not just straight blitzing.



No, its straight blitzing. That's why Kishimoto calls Minato the _Yellow Flash._ 

The confusion comes from getting blitzed out of nowhere, like the quote you posted says.



Turrin said:


> Even when Minato has the mark on someone he still needs to launch a physical attack afterwards.



Of course he does.

The time it takes him to do so is just negligible, unless you're ridiculously fast like Jubi (or even Sage) Madara.



Turrin said:


> Obito let himself be hit



Okay, I'll throw out the Jubito example. It isn't necessary.



Turrin said:


> Deva Realm and HG realm are both faster than Base-B, so yes they are.



I already addressed B in another post.



Turrin said:


> Nagato starts with CST and just wipes the map instantly.



Tsunade responded to CST by funneling a ton of chakra into Katusyu, so Minato can probably respond by dropping a marker and just going back to Konoha. 

Then he can just come back to the battlefield and go to work on a weakened Nagato.



Turrin said:


> To bad that bullshit doesn't exist in the raw. So Yeah-- How-- About-- No.



Of course it doesn't. Japan writes in symbols, and we don't, so I don't see how it could even be in the raw.

That said, I doubt the translator put it there for shits and giggles, so...


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well, you could help your argument by showing me Nagato covering his blindspots with sensing.
> 
> But, since all there is are instances of Itachi making a fool of him with ambushes, you should realize that there isn't anything you should show me.


Itachi didn't make a fool out of him, he made a fool out off Kabuto who was controlling Nagato. A Kabuto who was completely unaware that Nagato could use sensing.



> Jiraiya notes that even if the bodies were sensing types they shouldn't be able to cover their blindspots so effectively.


It helps me because it shows sensors that can fight and sense at the same time is not some shockingly uncommon thing, Jiraiya hasn't encountered before. And of course sensing isn't as good as shared vision and multi-bodies covering ones blind-spots, literally nothing is better than that as far as covering ones blind-spots is concerned.



> What are you on? Minato vanished on panel, and Obito's "Gotch-" comes before he went anywhere, so your interpretation fails.
> 
> My interpretation is that he never actually did stop saying "gotcha," but was interrupted by Rasengan being slammed into his back on the next page, and that interpretation works.
> 
> ...



You claim, "Minato vanished on panel, and Obito's "Gotch-" comes before he went anywhere"

While at the same time claiming, "he never actually did stop saying "gotcha," but was interrupted by Rasengan being slammed into his back on the next page"

So according to you he stopped his statement short before Minato vanished, but he did so because he was hit by Rasengan





I numbered the panels out for you. Obito stops his statement short in the 3rd-Panel. I must assume your referring to Minato vanishing in the 4th-Panel. Because you claim "Minato vanished on panel", and that is the only possible panel that, said statement could apply to. So in your interpretation Obito stops his statement short, before Minato even uses Hiraishin. In-fact you say exactly that, "before he went anywhere". So if Obito stops his statement short before Minato even uses Hiraishin to teleport behind him, it's *literally fucking impossible* that Minato's Rasengan hitting Obito is what caused him to stop his statement short. 

So literally no part of this explanation you provided make sense.



> Of course it doesn't. Japan writes in symbols, and we don't, so I don't see how it could even be in the raw.
> 
> That said, I doubt the translator put it there for shits and giggles, so...


Your right a symbol is used. And I'll even circle it for you:



Please take note of "---" in Obito's statement there. That's the symbol and it's very clearly in the Raw on that page. That symbol however is very clearly not in the Raw on the page your citing:



It literally can't get any clearer that your point doesn't follow what's presented in the Raw-Text.

And no Shitpanda fucking up by including that does not override what's very clear presented in the Raw-Text. But fuck if don't believe me and don't believe your own dam eyes, than take Viz's word for it because I have the Viz volume and I assure you, you won't find that bullshit in their release of the chapter ether.



> No, its straight blitzing. That's why Kishimoto calls Minato the Yellow Flash.
> 
> The confusion comes from getting blitzed out of nowhere, like the quote you posted says.


I'm just going to repost this over and over again until you actually acknowledge what the quote actually says:

Rocky he was confused because Minato hit him and Minato vanished. I*t's both things*, I.E. "Obito didn't get hit because he didn't see Minato vanish until being hit by Rasengan. It's because he didn't figure out where Minato vanished to, until he was hit by Rasengan."

So as I said the basic mechanics of Hiraishin is based around confusing the enemy and catching them by surprise, not just straight blitzing.



> Of course he does.
> 
> The time it takes him to do so is just negligible, unless you're ridiculously fast like Jubi (or even Sage) Madara.


No it's not, because Minato's own physical movement speed is not anywhere near the instantaneous speeds of Hiraishin. 



> I already addressed B in another post.


Okay so let's go through that:



> t B likely saw Minato flick that marker above A's head. At that point, he put two and two together and sent a tentacle speeding towards A so that when Minato got back and caught that marker the tentacle would hopefully get there and knock A out of the way.


We are shown on panel when B sends his tentacle to knock Ei out of the way and it happens after Minato teleports behind Ei:


But fuck let's play pretend for a moment, and go off your premise, that B saw Minato drop the Kunai and reacted based on that. All that happened after that was Minato using Hiraishin twice, instead of once, and than attacking. The extra Hiraishin usage really should not have taken much time at all and at the absolute most that would have simply made up for the time it took B to form a tentacle and cross the extra distance with said tentacle to get closer to Ei. I.E. even accepting your interpretation, it still shows Hiraishin Attacks are not anywhere near as fast as your making them out to be.



> You think B somehow sent a tentacle across that distance in response to Minato landing on A and saved him before Minato could bring his arm down, right?


Well, yeah because that's what the manga greatly encourages readers to take away from the scene given how the panels are laid out. 

Panel of Minato appearing behind Ei ---> Panel of Tentacle moving Towards Ei ----> Panel of Tentacle hitting B out of the way at the same time as Minato's is completing his strike. 

It could not get any clearer.



> If that were the case, then why didn't B aim to hit Minato instead of A?


Because you don't control Naruto characters and they aren't game bots that use perfect strategy in all scenario's especially when their loved ones are endanger. That's why. It's not because of some convoluted explanation you thought of to try and deny what very plainly occurred in the manga cannon



> It's the same deal later on. B has his sword in place before Minato gets there. A forced Minato to jump, and B (correctly) guessed where Minato would land


No he doesn't. In the previous page you can very clearly see B does not have a sword out and has his palm resting on his knee in-front of him.


Than right after Ei charges Minato again with his Max-Speed and Minato uses Hiraishin to teleport behind B. 

Now you could say B reacted to Ei charging Minato, and went to put his sword behind his back, but what does that give him like an extra fraction of a mili-second to perform the action of drawing out his sword and putting behind his back, considering how fast Max-Speed Ei is and Minato using Hiraishin in response to him is? And fuck Minato's blade wasn't down all the way to B's neck anyway, so maybe with a extra fraction of a milisecond more Minato would have gotten the Kunai closer to B, before he put the sword behind his back, but so the fuck what, in the grand scheme of this it doesn't matter as it still shows someone of B's speed can mount a defense in time.



> Tsunade responded to CST by funneling a ton of chakra into Katusyu, so Minato can probably respond by dropping a marker and just going back to Konoha.


So in essence he runs the fuck away, considering he'd have no way to get back to battle field. And don't even start this Kunai or marking would stay in place near Nagato if Minato dropped one before teleporting away garbage. Because that shit would ether be obliterated outright or sent flying miles away and buried under tons or rubble making it a totally unviable warp point.

And nice job trying to dodge the actual point, that there is no way IC Minato first Hiraishin attack is a decapitation attack.


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## thechickensage (Jun 20, 2015)

Argus, you think: 
1.  No way to perceive ST
2.  No way to predict ST
2.  No way to react to ST
4.  No way to tank ST
5.  Minato will die too fast to learn anything
5.  No way to damage Nagato

I say: I think Minato could tag Nagato with a clone.  You probably disagree, but I think it would be bound to happen on the 2nd or 3rd clone that he uses.  The first dies to ST.

As for not being able to "force" a ST from Nagato:
Look at Kakashi + chouza vs Deva Path (here).  After only seeing it a few times, Kakashi figured out the timings + a counter to the jutsu.  And Kakashi successfully got past ST, except for Asura jumping in front.  This is after only a few moves of fighting.  It took seconds for Kakashi to beat Deva Path.  And from no significant knowledge of ST to countering it.  And Kakashi only lost 1 clone to do this.  And you even have to perceive ST because you can predict ST from when you attack.  

How did Kakashi trick Deva into a losing position?  By deceiving him and forcing Deva to ST at an exact time.  Of course Minato can time when Nagato will use ST.  It will be very obvious because it will be Nagato's go-to means of countering certain attacks.  

For instance, Naruto knew that Pain would use ST here, he just had to time it properly.  Naruto has just barely too little time to hit Deva Path.

You and others seem to be arguing that there s is no way for Minato to take this, but I think there are several ways, but he has to make *no mistakes*, and be extremely cautious and calculating.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They're part of the same utterance.  I used to think like you, that Obito had processed Minato blitzing him. But a poster proved me wrong. Using his words, Obito was literally processing the thought that he'd won when a Rasengan entered his back.



 He did as his statement was cancelled the moment Minato warped. The confusion caused by Minato's warp is what caused it to be an "unexpected" attack, but the confusion wasn't caused by the Rasengan. The statement that one of the posters presented supports that.



> His statement about the thrown kunai was him realizing _how_ he had been struck, which is why that "moment of confusion" the Databook probably happened while Obito was screaming in pain, _before_ he realized how he'd been struck.



 Well yeah, he didn't have any idea of where he warped to until he was struck by the Rasengan, but that doesn't exaclty prove that the confusion was caused by the Rasengan, just that the strike had given Minato's location away.





> It isn't instantaneous, but coming out of Hiraishin, _it's_ _pretty_ _close._



 Not even similar striking motion. Minato's Rasengan was more comparable to Minato's lunge with the Kunai against Ei and Bee managed to extend his tentacle before Minato could even strike Ei. It's not close to being instantaneous unless you believe Young Bee's strike speed is near instantaneous well.




> B's feats against Minato were performed with _prediction_, not speed. Minato jumped to a tree to avoid A, but B likely saw Minato flick that marker above A's head. At that point, he put two and two together and sent a tentacle speeding towards A so that when Minato got back and caught that marker the tentacle would hopefully get there and knock A out of the way.



 Except manga clearly indicates that the tentacle extended a far distance after Minato had appeared.

 What you essentially convinced me of is that Minato's attempts at flicking a Kunai at Nagato will be predictable considering Bee anticipated it and will be able to react accordingly, esp. with Shared Vision aiding him here. Not sure how this at all proves that Minato would beat Nagato.



> _You_ think B somehow sent a tentacle across that distance in response to Minato landing on A and saved him before Minato could bring his arm down, right? Well that's wrong. If that were the case, _then why didn't B aim to hit Minato instead of A? _I'll tell you; it's because B was trying to get A out of the way _while Minato was still up on that tree._ He was predicting what would happen. _Thinking ahead._ That's it.



 Except that still doesn't prove how Young Bee's reaction speed was inferior to Minato's. His tentacle still extended a farther distance that Minato did as he began to lunge his Kunai. Actually, we're only shown that Bee's tentacle had extended in response to Minato warping on top of Ei's back. What you're just providing here is pure speculation instead of using what's straight up from the manga. Bee's tentacle was simply fast enough and reached Ei before Minato could even lunge at Ei.

 Why did aim his tentacle at Ei instead of Minato? Likely because of instincts and the fact that both share a very intimate bond meaning that Bee would naturally protect his own brother instead of aim at Minato and risk the possiblity of Ei getting injured.



> It's the same deal later on. B has his sword in place _before_ Minato gets there. A forced Minato to jump, and B (correctly) guessed where Minato would land.



 Or that B simply perceived his movement and simply lunged his sword at Minato's gut before Minato could even complete his strike. If Bee did have his sword lunged prior, you'd have to assume that Bee could suddenly lodge a sword directly at where he believes Minato's gut would be faster than Minato's FTG Warp. That's illogical as you're essentially assuming Killer Bee simply prepared his strike before Minato warped which should be easily anticipated by Minato. If not, it simply hurts Minato more here.


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## Rocky (Jun 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He did as his statement was cancelled the moment Minato warped.



You are literally wrong. Flat out incorrect. 

His statement was interrupted because Minato shoved a Rasengan into his back, which made him scream.



NarutoX28 said:


> Well yeah, he didn't have any idea of where he warped to until he was struck by the Rasengan



Correction, he didn't have any idea Minato had warped _period_ until he was struck by Rasengan, similar to how he didn't realize Minato had warped until he'd been stabbed. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Not even similar striking motion. Minato's Rasengan was more comparable to Minato's lunge with the Kunai against Ei



Rasengan is going to be faster because Minato wasn't catching a kunai and landing on Obito's back, but both are incredibly fast regardless.



NarutoX28 said:


> Except manga clearly indicates that the tentacle extended a far distance after Minato had appeared.





That is the only panel we get of the tentacle, and it's already on its way.

Please point out where exactly the manga is indicating that this tentacle traveled a "far" distance after Minato had appeared. 



NarutoX28 said:


> What you essentially convinced me of is that Minato's attempts at flicking a Kunai at Nagato will be predictable considering Bee anticipated it and will be able to react accordingly, esp. with Shared Vision aiding him here. Not sure how this at all proves that Minato would beat Nagato.



B was sitting there observing Minato fight A, which Nagato won't be doing, so Nagato would probably end up more like v2 A who didn't possess the speed to react.

By the way, care to tell me why you would give Nagato B's anticipation feats?



NarutoX28 said:


> Except that still doesn't prove how Young Bee's reaction speed was inferior to Minato's.



This has nothing to do with B's reaction speed. It has to do with the speed at which the tentacle traverses a small distance, which was what was comparable to Minato's strike speed.

The fact that RCM A couldn't get out of Minato's way should tell you that B can't react in time to Minato's actual Hiraishin attack.



NarutoX28 said:


> Why did aim his tentacle at Ei instead of Minato? Likely because of instincts and the fact that both share a very intimate bond meaning that Bee would naturally protect his own brother instead of aim at Minato and risk the possiblity of Ei getting injured.



Careful, you might pull something reaching that hard. Seriously, did you even read what you wrote there? 

Hitting Minato and hitting A would accomplish the same exact thing- getting A away from danger.

The reason he aimed for his own comrade as opposed to his opponent is likely because his opponent wasn't yet there to aim at.



NarutoX28 said:


> Or that B simply perceived his movement and simply lunged his sword at Minato's gut before Minato could even complete his strike.



Then B's sword wouldn't already be in position by the time Minato got there.

Minato also never tired to strike B there...



> That's illogical as you're essentially assuming Killer Bee simply prepared his strike before Minato warped which should be easily anticipated by Minato. If not, it simply hurts Minato more here.



Why the fuck would Minato being paying attention to B at the time when there a pissed v2 A coming at him?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

Well, this is shit. I didn't expect you to respond that quickly.

 I'll respond to you tomorrow, but I'm assuming since you responded to me first, then I'm simply Zetsu fodder compared to Turrin.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Manga seems to suggest otherwise as Bee could react to Minato's surprise attack on Ei before he even lunged his Kunai at Ei's back. That even places Young Bee's reflexes above Minato and would allow Young Bee to react to Minato provided he can anticipate the location of where Minato warps to.
> 
> Minato only paused because Young Bee managed to react to his attack and Kishimoto made it clear how Bee reacted to the attack accordingly as there was no expression mark indicating shock while there was for that Kumo Fodder.
> 
> ...



Minato just finished complimenting Bee. Minato praised him for beijg his own ninja. Then told Ei to make sure he finds whats precious to Bee, so that bee doesnt become neither human nor a jinchuuriki. Minato then said the next time they meet, it will be as kages. Minato then walked away, its clear at this point that minato liked bee, minato could relate to bee because of kushina and knew how jinchuuriki need to be handled and cared for. So yeah, anyone with common sense knows minato had no intention of killing bee. Minato walked away, Ei attacked him, then minato teleported behind bee as a means to warn off Ei. However he paused the moment he got to bee, if he had full killing intent, bee never would have reacted.

No minato didnt pasuse becsuse he saw bees attack. He paussed because he wasnt going to kill him. And you know he didnt even see bees attack until after, becsuse minato was still talking after he teleported to bee, saying "he wont fail". So even there, minato says 3 words without actually making a move. If he had done what he did to obito and instantly stabbed him, it would have left bee no time to react. Then you have the fsct at if minato wanted him dead, there is a radius around the ftg seal so minato could have teleported infront, to the side or above bee and killed him from anywhere else. Face the fact that bee was safe the entire time.

Im not talking about minatos ability to tag someone, thats not imporatnt here. Im talking about the claim that bee can "react" to an instantaneous attack that neither MS Obito or Juubito could react or perceive. To then claim bee can do what a god couldnt makes you guys look like morons.

Why are you twlking about kcm minato and juubito, thats not relevant to what im saying. Minatos mark wasnt on juubito, Tobiramas was, and juubito couldnt react to tobirama or sage mode narutos strike. Even naruto who has never utilised hirashin before caught juubito off guard with it. If minato had marked juubito, it would have been the same deal. Also stop this nonsense of yours, actignlike kcm improves mental reaction, its just a cloak. Minato lost his arm after he warped, not mid warp, stop spouting idiotic nonsense.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

> Or that B simply perceived his movement and simply lunged his sword at Minato's gut before Minato could even complete his strike.



If you check, Bee's sword is already in position when Minato appeared.  That's why his arm is hidden behind him.  Unless you actually think Bee can draw his sword and put it into position at the speed of teleport, then, I guess, you can think whatever.

Minato also isn't stabbing the kunai like he did against Obito on several occasions.  He warps behind him and threatens Ei, saying he won't fail to kill Bee if Ei doesn't knock it off.  

Another problem that just occurred to me.  Minato can perceive Ei's max speed shunshin, but you're saying he somehow didn't notice Bee drawing and positioning his sword right in front of him, while he's staring at him, until it's practically touching his stomach.


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## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2015)

find it odd people think bee could physically react to hirashin after being tagged all evidence points the contrary 

juubito 3 tiers above SM Naruto could not react to SM Naruto or tobirama attack after he had been tagged despite knowing 

none the less nagato will never be tagged. 

one question if ST is used on obito and he phases after he is hit will his body crash in kamui box land and would it hurt him?

for those who say yes explain 

for those who say no. note if phasing after being hit doesn't hurt obito then hirashin can be used to escape ST


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If you check, Bee's sword is already in position when Minato appeared.  That's why his arm is hidden behind him.  Unless you actually think Bee can draw his sword and put it into position at the speed of teleport, then, I guess, you can think whatever.
> 
> Minato also isn't stabbing the kunai like he did against Obito on several occasions.  He warps behind him and threatens Ei, saying he won't fail to kill Bee if Ei doesn't knock it off.
> 
> Another problem that just occurred to me.  Minato can perceive Ei's max speed shunshin, but you're saying he somehow didn't notice Bee drawing and positioning his sword right in front of him, while he's staring at him, until it's practically touching his stomach.



 You misunderstood me. He perceived his movement after he warped and reacted accordingly with his sword before Minato could complete his strike. That was essentially my main point against Rocky is that what Rocky's suggesting is impossible as Bee can't raise his sword faster than instantaneous speed.

 Edit: Also, don't even relate the last statement to mine because that was Rocky's.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Stated/implied where?
> .


When Itachi had to explain to Kabuto that Nagato was a sensor:
already in position



> ...but Jiraiya is literally saying that they wouldn't be covering their blindspots well if they were sensors.


Your leaving out all of the context to force that conclusion. What's said is this, [From C-net]:

Jiraiya: (He doesn't make a single move he doesn't need to... / He could have tried to dodge, but instead he blocked it with a summon without even turning to face it... // But what's going on? It's not just a one-off, he's done it twice now... // They're not speaking a word to each other, or even making eye-contact... // Even if the three of them were all perception-types, the fact is they shouldn't be able to deal with attacks  like this without at least seeing them coming. // And the Kebari Senbon is the fastest, most wide-range of all my attacks...)

19
Jiraiya: (There's no way to guard against it except to block it with a shield... just like he did.) // And he made that call without even looking at the attack...

----

The context makes it very clear that Jiraiya is saying that Pain shouldn't be able to guard those attacks so efficiently, even if he was a sensor. He's dealing with Sennin Modo level attacks, w/o any wasted movement and he knows every attack in such detail that would only be possible if he visually saw said attack, thus allowing him to deal with even  Senpo Kenbari Senbon w/o any kind of mis-step. 

Jiraiya is not saying that sensors can't react to and defend to blindside attacks as we've seen sensors like Mu do just that, he's saying even they couldn't do it as efficiently as Pain. I mean they also go on to say that Shared Vision allows them to cover for each other more efficiently than Byakugan, but that doesn't change the fact that we've seen Byakugan cover blindspots very well. 

Simply put the message isn't that sensing and byakugan aren't good at this, it's Shared Vision is by far the best at it.



> I'm not claiming that Obito stopped thinking anything. I'm telling you why your interpretation that he did cannot work.
> 
> My interpretation is that Minato warped in the middle of Obito's thought and hit him before he finished it.


Rocky You claim Obito stops his thought process before Minato even uses Hiraishin, while at the same time claiming that being hit by Rasengan is what stopped his thought process, which came after Minato used Hiraishin.

Minato would need a fucking time machine, for that statement to make sense.



> Your interpretation is that Obito saw Minato warp away and in his confusion stopped his thought of victory, which makes no sense.


My interpretation is that Panels 3 and 4 happen consecutively very quickly. So Obito stops his statement short in panel 3 because he see's Minato vanishing, than in panel 4 Minato has vanished hence Obito's hand meeting dead air, and than Obito is hit on the next page, and makes a totally unrelated grunting noise because he too a Rasengan to the spine.

Unlike your interpretation, mine does not rely on fucking time travel to be plausible.



> The sudden disappearance and unexpected attack go hand in hand to cause the confusion. There's nothing in between causing confusion. Obito wasn't wondering where Minato went.


Rocky why does someone vanishing cause confusion? Obviously because you don't know where that person went.



> Who cares? The speed is enough to where characters with instant defense jutsu cannot respond, so yeah..


Please tell me what you think can and can't defend against Minato's physical attacks.



> B could have formed the tentacle at any time off panel with the mindset to support A.
> 
> From there, it's just sending it over once Minato flicks that Kunai, and by the time Minato warps to the tree and back, catches the kunai, and swings it down, the tentacle was able to get to A.


I repeat:

 "All that happened after that was Minato using Hiraishin twice, instead of once, and than attacking. The extra Hiraishin usage really should not have taken much time at all and at the absolute most that would have simply made up for the time it took B's tentacle to cross the extra distance  to get closer to Ei. I.E. even accepting your interpretation, it still shows Hiraishin attacks are not anywhere near as fast as your making them out to be."



> If you want to think that B can send a tentacle across a distance faster than Obito or A can do anything, I won't stop you.


Obito and Ei lost track of Minato and therefore did not know they were being attacked from behind until it was too late. B saw Minato coming. So the scenario's are totally different.

Therefore I do not have to believe B is faster than Ei or Obito, I just need to believe B's Bijuu tentacle is faster than Minato's physical slash, something I'm very willing to believe.



> This is rich coming from mister "Ei must stand still to charge his max speed flickers."
> 
> The panel where A charges RCM while thinking about his plan is when B could have pulled the sword.


No this is rich coming from the guy that consistently argues in other threads that Ei's charge time makes no significant difference and does not allowed other shinobi time to do anything. So now I'm bookmarking this discussion, so every time you tell me in other threads Ei blitz's I'm going to direct you back to this very post where you claimed that Ei charging up his shroud was more than enough time for B to think of a defensive measure and take said defensive measure, all before Ei even began his successive attack. So thanks for that.

As for myself, I simply didn't think of that fact, until you mentioned it. That's actually a solid point. However B having enough time to put the sword behind his back before Ei charged Minato, doesn't mean that he did indeed put the sword behind his back before than. So all you've proven is a possibility, not a fact.

So moving on to address that possibility, it still doesn't make sense to me. Why? Because your point demands that B can't react to Minato's physical attack after he uses Hiraishin. If B can't react to Minato's physical attack, than there is absolutely no point to him predicting Minato may try to use Hiraishin against him and putting his sword behind his back. Why? Because if Minato's attack is faster than he can react to he's going to still get cut by Minato before he can use the sword that's behind him to stab at Minato interrupting Minato's attack. 

I mean if a guy can get behind me and slit my throat before I can move to react, it doesn't matter if I put a knife behind my back, because I won't be able to use it in time to do anything.

Thee only way B putting the sword behind his back makes any sense at all is if he could indeed react to Minato's attack after Hiraishin and counter stab Minato, ether forcing Minato to interrupt his own attack and warp away, stop his attack, or them both mutually get stabbed. Considering this and that we already saw B react to Minato before in the same scene, the more sensible position to hold is that B can indeed react to the attack that comes after Hiraishin.



> It might be buried, but he could summon Gamabunta and back warp with him as a way to dig himself out.


and ends up miles away from where Nagato is, if the paper tag was magically no obliterated.



> If for whatever reason Minato decides not to strike Nagato vitally, he'd just finish him off with a successive attack. Instead of using the contract seal like he did against Obito, he'd stab Nagato through the throat.


Which would do nothing. Nothing is bringing Nagato down short of decapitation. There is no way Minato can know that w/ no knowledge. He'll slice at him like he did to Ei and stab him in the chest like he did to Obito. Than Nagato will get his mecha man on rendering all of that a moot point. 

Fuck even w/o ashura realm we are talking about a guy who survived having his legs nigh blown off, than being stabbed through the spine by 11 to 12 black rods, and than having his life force drained out of him to the point of being reduced to an emaciated. Even still he went on living with said rods stabbed through him, seemingly added more rods, and became even more emaciated, and yet still lived w/o issue for several decades more.

Yet some how a mere slash or two from Minato's Kunai is bringing him down. No fucking way. Nagato survives long enough to mechanize himself at which point Kunai attacks are useless as they aren't cutting through future-metal and chakra attacks are useless do to Fujutsu Kyuuin. So even after marking him Minato can't do shit.


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## Rocky (Jun 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> When Itachi had to explain to Kabuto that Nagato was a sensor.



I see. So we don't actually know how good Nagato was.



Turrin said:


> Rocky You claim Obito stops his thought process before Minato even uses Hiraishin, while at the same time claiming that being hit by Rasengan is what stopped his thought process, which came after Minato used Hiraishin.



Read what I write before replying, because that isn't what _I_ claimed. _You_ claimed that Obito stopped his own thought process (which is incorrect). Do you even understand your own argument?



Turrin said:


> So Obito stops his statement short in panel 3 because he see's Minato vanishing, than in panel 4 Minato has vanished hence Obito's hand meeting dead air, and than Obito is hit on the next page



So you interpretation is that Obito "sees Minato vanishing" in the panel before Minato actually vanishes, yet Hiraishin is instantaneous. 

?



Turrin said:


> Rocky why does someone vanishing cause confusion? Obviously because you don't know where that person went.



It can, but because Minato usually combines the instantaneous vanishing with an actual attack, the opponent doesn't have time to feel confused until he's already hit.

This is what we saw with Obito. _Twice._



Turrin said:


> Please tell me what you think can and can't defend against Minato's physical attacks.



Kamui Obito.



Turrin said:


> "All that happened after that was Minato using Hiraishin twice, instead of once, and than attacking. The extra Hiraishin usage really should not have taken much time at all and at the absolute most that would have simply made up for the time it took B's tentacle to cross the extra distance  to get closer to Ei. I.E. even accepting your interpretation, it still shows Hiraishin attacks are not anywhere near as fast as your making them out to be."



B could have formed the tentacle at any time off panel with the mindset to support A.

From there, it's just sending it over once Minato flicks that Kunai, and by the time Minato warps to the tree and back, catches the kunai, and swings it down, the tentacle was able to get to A. 



Turrin said:


> Obito and Ei lost track of Minato and therefore did not know they were being attacked from behind until it was too late. B saw Minato coming. So the scenario's are totally different.



Obito was literally staring at Minato, and then a moment later Minato blitzed a contract seal on to him. That would be Obito failing to react to Minato "physical speed" or whatever.



Turrin said:


> So thanks for that.



I don't know if I ever claimed that B would be incapable of pulling a sword while A amps to v2. Minato did something similar by spreading kunai.



Turrin said:


> Because if Minato's attack is faster than he can react to he's going to still get cut by Minato before he can use the sword that's behind him to stab at Minato interrupting Minato's attack.



Minato's attack speed is only "too fast" because his opponent must first process his vanishing.

Since it takes him no time to vanish, he's usually done with his attack by the time the opponent's realized he's even gone anywhere. 

B didn't have to worry about that, because Minato warped behind him and stood there uttering "I won't fail." He he done that against Obito, his Rasengan wouldn't have worked either. 



Turrin said:


> and ends up miles away from where Nagato is, if the paper tag was magically no obliterated.



Gamabunta can cover "miles" in a few hops. So can Minato with Shunshin, who jumped across Konoha.



Turrin said:


> Which would do nothing.



My god. Can you not?


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky you need to seriously clarify what  your interpretation of the obito panels is before we go any further because right now I'm confused as fuck by what your trying to express there.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You are literally wrong. Flat out incorrect.



 Well actually, I'm flat out correct. 



> His statement was interrupted because Minato shoved a Rasengan into his back, which made him scream.



 Except his it was shown that his statement was interrupted due to Minato warping and Obito being unable to detect his location. His surprise from the Rasengan came from just that, his unawareness to Minato's location which is why that Rasengan was an unexpected strike in the first place.




> Correction, he didn't have any idea Minato had warped _period_ until he was struck by Rasengan, similar to how he didn't realize Minato had warped until he'd been stabbed.



 That doesn't make sense. Minato suddenly disappearing has everything to do with teleportation. Obito wasn't even surprised how Minato escaped his grasp earlier which means he's aware that the instant Minato disappears, he teleports. Obito's expression afterwards simply implies that he never expected him to warp to the Kunai he just threw, not that he had no idea that he warped in the first place. 

 already in position

 Again, your example doesn't work here as Obito had no knowledge of Minato tagging him whereas in this scenario, Obito knew that Minato threw his Kunai through his head, but also knew that he had a Kunai set prior to their clash, so he assumed he would use Hiraishin to bail him out as he always used it defensively. Hell, why would Obito be able to anticipate him tagging him after being completely stunned by the unexpected Rasengan slamming into his arm? Furthermore, how would he be able to react efficiently when he was only concerned about his recovering arm?

 Your example simply doesn't work here.




> Rasengan is going to be faster because Minato wasn't catching a kunai and landing on Obito's back, but both are incredibly fast regardless.



 Except Bee was shown to only react after Minato appeared above him while his Kunai was in his hand, so simply put, his strike speed isn't instantaneous.




> That is the only panel we get of the tentacle, and it's already on its way.
> 
> Please point out where exactly the manga is indicating that this tentacle traveled a "far" distance after Minato had appeared.



 The tentacle wasn't shown to have reached Ei yet which clearly indicates he still extended his tentacle farther than Minato lunging a Kunai a few inches towards Ei's back.

 already in position

 Let's be logical here. If Bee's tentacle was still a centimeter away from Ei/ Minato, his tentacle still would've travelled farther as it reached several feet past Minato and managed to push Ei out of the way before Minato lunged his Kunai.

 But your argument doesn't work when we're shown that Bee reacted in response to Minato appearing above Ei's back.



> B was sitting there observing Minato fight A, which Nagato won't be doing, so Nagato would probably end up more like v2 A who didn't possess the speed to react.



 No, Nagato will considering he has Shared Vision. 



> By the way, care to tell me why you would give Nagato B's anticipation feats?



 He perceived Amaterasu, something KCM Naruto couldn't do despite him being an advanced sensor and KCM Naruto displayed superior reflexes against Itachi than Bee ever did. 




> This has nothing to do with B's reaction speed. It has to do with the speed at which the tentacle traverses a small distance, which was what was comparable to Minato's strike speed.



 It actually does. He perceived Minato's strike and showed superior movement speed than Minato did. That is superior reaction speed. Simply put, striking is a reaction, so reaction speed is essentially how fast they could perform their reaction and from what is shown, Bee's simply performed his faster than Minato did.



> The fact that RCM A couldn't get out of Minato's way should tell you that B can't react in time to Minato's actual Hiraishin attack.



 Ei was left vulnerable as his back-side was left exposed after his Shunshin. Ei clearly could tell that he was tagged as shown here: 

 already in position
 already in position

 No expression of shock after Minato's warp indicates that Ei located Minato yet couldn't react because he had his bllindspot exposed because he lunged at Minato with his Max Shunshin.




> Careful, you might pull something reaching that hard. Seriously, did you even read what you wrote there?
> 
> Hitting Minato and hitting A would accomplish the same exact thing- getting A away from danger.
> 
> The reason he aimed for his own comrade as opposed to his opponent is likely because his opponent wasn't yet there to aim at.





 I'm reaching even though you're trying to convince me Minato's strike speed is nearly instantaneous and that Bee lunged his tentacle before Minato warped on Ei's back even though the manga shows otherwise?



 Don't go there pal.




> Then B's sword wouldn't already be in position by the time Minato got there.
> 
> Minato also never tired to strike B there...



 Except we're shown that Bee lunged his sword at the instant Minato had his Kunai above Bee's head, so that doesn't work here.

 Minato never tried to strike Bee despite trying to stick a Kunai down Ei's back and that they weren't during a time of War? Well, I'm convinced ....



> Why the fuck would Minato being paying attention to B at the time when there a pissed v2 A coming at him?



 So you're basically going off of pure speculation here. Don't even comment on me reaching when you're overreaching. 

 If what you're saying is true, then you're assuming that Minato, despite planning ahead of time and being one-step ahead of Ei the whole time wouldn't have been able to perceive a potential counter-attack by Bee even though he could perceive Ei's Shunshin speed. That's poor planning on Minato's part and simply gives me a reason to assume Nagato can easily just counterattack Minato before even Minato can anticipate.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 20, 2015)

I am enjoying this debate
sadly no one answered my question 

if ST hits obito and he phases will he crash to the ground in kamui box land?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky you need to seriously clarify what  your interpretation of the obito panels is before we go any further because right now I'm confused as fuck by what your trying to express there.



So they're running at each other, and Minato throws the knife.

Obito phases through it, reaches for Minato, and thinks "victory is mi-"

...but that thought is interrupted by Minato hitting him with Rasengan.

Then after that, Minato warps in front of Obito and hits him with a contract seal (which is a _physical action_ following Hiraishin) before he can respond with Kamui.

Minato actual striking speed _isn't_ something Obito can't handle, but when combined with Hiraishin it's too fast because Obito _can't process the fact that Minato vanished_ before Minato hits him.

That's why Kishimoto calls him the Yellow Flash. Because he's _fast._ You act as if Minato isn't fast as long as you know what Hiraishin does.


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## Bonly (Jun 20, 2015)

Either Minato manages to touch Nagato and marks him or Minato gets overwhelmed eventually


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You misunderstood me. He perceived his movement after he warped and reacted accordingly with his sword before Minato could complete his strike. That was essentially my main point against Rocky is that what Rocky's suggesting is impossible as Bee can't raise his sword faster than instantaneous speed.



You mean he moved his sword when Minato was talking?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You mean he moved his sword when Minato was talking?



 If that was the case, Bee would've had an expression of "shock" similar to the Kumo Fodder's yet he didn't. That suggests he reacted accordingly. Had Minato actually appeared behind him and had his Kunai ready to strike Bee before Bee perceived it and began to speak, then Bee should have an "exclamation mark" indicating shock as he never expected him to be able to blindside him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

Minato was impressed Bee kept his cool and moved like a killer shinobi with a knife held to his head.  So no, he wouldn't have been shocked.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

I don't see what you're saying.  We clearly have a picture of Minato appearing, and we see Bee already has a sword at the ready.  We have Minato talking, instead of swinging his kunai.  

How does that not indicate Bee anticipating hiraishin?  How is he moving faster than Minato can strike, when Minato is talking and isn't attacking?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't see what you're saying.  We clearly have a picture of Minato appearing, and we see Bee already has a sword at the ready.  We have Minato talking, instead of swinging his kunai.



 Yes, Bee already had his sword ready because he managed to react accordingly just like he did in response to Minato warping at his back. My notion clearly goes along with what Kishimoto was able conveyed in the manga, that Young Bee was able to react to Minato. 

 Minato talking was in response to Bee managing to mount a defense, hence why Minato stated, "I will not fail," as Minato believed he had a chance against them despite Minato being countered.



> How does that not indicate Bee anticipating hiraishin?  How is he moving faster than Minato can strike, when Minato is talking and isn't attacking?



 Because Bee was already shown to be able to react to Minato in response to his warp as long as he could anticipate where he was going to warp. If Bee anticipated it here, then it's reasonable that Bee would also be able to mount a defense in this scenario considering he had been shown to be able to do so prior.

 But really, I simply feel our arguments are based on our interpretation of what the manga displayed.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 20, 2015)

B gets stabbed in the head and dies.

Minato gets stabbed in the stomach and teleports back home to allow Kushina to "heal" him. 

I don't see how those outcomes are comparable here.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Jun 20, 2015)

Nagato takes it, when Minato starts tossing his Kunais Nagato can just sustain his ST barrier and it will all be deflected. On top of that, ST isn't something you can see or percieve especially if it's specifically directed at someone.
On top of that, Nagato has summonings. Cerberus will cause some problems. He would have multiplied several times over before Minato actually formulates a plan for it.
Also, a Deva Path who finished using CST and was getting chakra transmitted to him from a emaciated Nagato who happened to be far away, was able to oneshott 3 huge toads. Seeing as how this is just Minato vs a healthy Nagato, depending on how much force he puts behind it a STT will end it shortly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

> But really, I simply feel our arguments are based on our interpretation of what the manga displayed.



That is fundamentally every disagreement in the Battledome.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

Rocky said:


> So they're running at each other, and Minato throws the knife.
> 
> Obito phases through it, reaches for Minato, and thinks "victory is mi-"
> 
> ...


no I want you to tell me what panel Minato uses ftg. Basically give me a panel by panel explanation . I already labeled them to for you


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

Turrin said:


> no I want you to tell me what panel Minato uses ftg. Basically give me a panel by panel explanation . I already labeled them to for you



 You already nailed it. It's illogical to assume Rocky's argument is correct since Obito being confused prior to Minato warping simply doesn't make any sense at all.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 20, 2015)

You guys are caught up in sequential thinking.  The sentence being cut off, the disappearance of Minako Suzumiya, and the rasengan to the back happen concurrently.

HGHGUURGHGHGURGLE happens after the rasengan hits him, and it the continuation of Obito's win speech.  The whole thing happened before he could finish his thought.


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## Turrin (Jun 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You guys are caught up in sequential thinking.  The sentence being cut off, the disappearance of Minako Suzumiya, and the rasengan to the back happen concurrently.
> 
> HGHGUURGHGHGURGLE happens after the rasengan hits him, and it the continuation of Obito's win speech.  The whole thing happened before he could finish his thought.



I didn't realize you troll pow


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 20, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You guys are caught up in sequential thinking.  The sentence being cut off, the disappearance of Minako Suzumiya, and the rasengan to the back happen concurrently.
> 
> HGHGUURGHGHGURGLE happens after the rasengan hits him, and it the continuation of Obito's win speech.  The whole thing happened before he could finish his thought.





 You almost had me there.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

Where did I lose you?



These panels show where Obito's hand is, and where Minato's rasengan is, at the same time. They're concurrent panels.  

But they were numbered separately by Turrin, as if they were sequential.  That isn't a good way to think about things.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> no I want you to tell me what panel Minato uses ftg. Basically give me a panel by panel explanation . I already labeled them to for you





Obito reaches for Minato.



Obito thinks the first syllable of "gotcha."



Minato jumps. 

There is no sign of Obito processing this.



Minato hits Obito with Rasengan. This happens while Obito is still thinking "I win," which would be why Kamui was not activated.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Obito reaches for Minato.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay yeah so please excuse me when I say that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Because you are saying that Obito stops his statement before Minato uses Hiraishin, while saying this is caused by something that happens after he uses Hiraishin.

Again your interpretations requires Minato to use Hiraishin, hope into the mother fucking TARDIS, travel backing time to before he uses Hiraishin and hit Obito with Rasengan thus stopping his statement short, before he ever even used Hiraishin.

Sorry, but until you admit how laughable this is, I can't even begin to take you seriously as a poster.

Edit: Also just so you know the actual japanese is not "Gotcha". It literally says "It's my win", and there is no missing syllabus. "勝つ" = Win. オレ = me. の = possessives. Therefore "It's My Winー" is how it should be read. As in the "ー" is just indicative of him noticing something, not him being interrupted mid sentence, as he did complete the sentence.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Okay yeah so please excuse me when I say that makes no fucking sense whatsoever. Because you are saying that Obito stops his statement before Minato uses Hiraishin, while saying this is caused by something that happens after he uses Hiraishin.





I'm starting to doubt your ability to comprehend information.

_I_ never claimed that Obito willfully stopped thinking gotcha. That was you.

How many times to I have to say it.

This panel:



...is displaying Obito thinking the first part of "gotcha" like I said ten minutes ago. He never gets to finish that thought because Minato warps and hits him with Rasengan.


----------



## ARGUS (Jun 21, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Argus, you think:
> 1.  No way to perceive ST
> 2.  No way to predict ST
> 2.  No way to react to ST


Yes, there is no way minato could percieve or predict ST, 
SM naruto couldnt do it, despite all his sensiing, 
Edo itachi couldnt predict it, neither could Kakashi despite their sharingain 
KCM naruto couldnt do it, despite his advanced sensing, reactions and emotion sensing,  
minato is no exception to this, 

no way to react to ST, because:
1. it has no shape or  form,
2. minato has no way of anticipating it 
3. it has instant execution speed, 



> 4.  No way to tank ST


Considering that 3 boss toads who could tank shukakus forest busting wind bullets and have immense durabililty, got one shotted by ST, 
then someone liek mianto has no way of tanking it at all 


> 5.  Minato will die too fast to learn anything


if he even has full knowledge, he still cant counter it properly 
an instant intangible force with immense power hard counters minato 



> 5.  No way to damage Nagato


i have already established this, 
his ninjutsu is useless, 
his taijutsu attacks would just fail or they are simply tanked by asura armor, 




> I say: I think Minato could tag Nagato with a clone.  You probably disagree, but I think it would be bound to happen on the 2nd or 3rd clone that he uses.  The first dies to ST.


one ST is used, and all the clones in the battlefield are poofed and minato himself is exposed, 
nagato can use his bird to gain distance and hide himself in chameleon to catch minato off guard and finish him off



> As for not being able to "force" a ST from Nagato:
> Look at Kakashi + chouza vs Deva Path (here).  After only seeing it a few times, Kakashi figured out the timings + a counter to the jutsu.  And Kakashi successfully got past ST, except for Asura jumping in front.  This is after only a few moves of fighting.  It took seconds for Kakashi to beat Deva Path.  And from no significant knowledge of ST to countering it.  And Kakashi only lost 1 clone to do this.  And you even have to perceive ST because you can predict ST from when you attack.


this falls flat due to 3 reasons, 
1. Nagato >>>>>> Deva path, 
2. nagato himself has an array of jutsus meaning that even iif hes on cooldown, he has means of attacking and protecting himself 
3. minato has 0 firepower 

not only are nagatos ST far far stronger than devas but they have shorter intervals, 

attacking deva path is obviously going to result in him using ST, 
the problem is that minato wont know when and where exactly is ST going to happen meaing that he cant evade it, 
meaning that he gets his bones broken regardless of what he tries since all of his attacks are going to result in him getting blown away, 



> How did Kakashi trick Deva into a losing position?  By deceiving him and forcing Deva to ST at an exact time.  Of course Minato can time when Nagato will use ST.  It will be very obvious because it will be Nagato's go-to means of countering certain attacks.


Ok, but again even if minato attempts to time nagatos ST, 
it doesnt help him evade or coutner it, as he gets blown off the planet the second its executed 
unlike deva, nagato is also an adept sensor meaning that he'll be able to sense all of minatos in the battlefield, 




> For instance, Naruto knew that Pain would use ST here, he just had to time it properly.  Naruto has just barely too little time to hit Deva Path.


OK, 
but deva is far far inferior to nagato, 
and this is the same opponent who is trying to capture, as well as thhe fact that he has ST and ST alone, 
nagato has summons to gain distance, or hide himself, has armor to tank attacks and has preta to negate rasengans, 

had  nagato been in that instant, instead of deva and it wouldve resulted in rasengna being absorbed, naruto being restrained and killed by ningendo, 
just how it was against a far stronger and faster naruto in canon 



> You and others seem to be arguing that there s is no way for Minato to take this, but I think there are several ways, but he has to make *no mistakes*, and be extremely cautious and calculating.


extremely cautious and calculating unfortunately wont be cutting it here, 
minato has  0 firepower, his sneak attacks are located, his attacks are either tanked, counterattacked or negated, 
and his foot speed and attacks are reacted to and seen, 

whilst on the contrary minato wont be able to locate nagato once he hides himself, 
he wont be able to see his attacks, 
expecting it doesnt mean that he can survive or evade it when he cant see it or  know whhere it  is, 

he wont be able to tank them, 
so minatos chances are very very rare


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Where did I lose you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I don't understand your point. Minato is still present at that very moment, hence why Obito believed he won until Minato warped.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

If you go to slap me and say "gotcha" (because you assume the slap will connect), but I'm much faster than you thought and punch you in the stomach before your hand can hit me, you're probably going to end up saying something like "GotchOOOF." 

That is what happened with Obito. He doesn't stop saying/thinking gotcha because Minato warped away (that makes no sense given the panel order).  "Gotch-" is just all Obito could manage to think before he was suddely hit by a Rasengan.

Actually, maybe I should say that Obito doesn't stop thinking "gotcha" _soley_ because Minato warped away. The warping away is obviously part of the Rasengan attack,_ but they go together._ That goes back to the databook statement.

"The sudden dissaperance of the user, in addition to a follow up strike, results in confusion." There is no confusion in between the warp and the strike. The target _doesn't have time_ to be confused unti the stike has already happened. This is probably because the warp takes no time.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you go to slap me and say "gotcha" (because you assume the slap will connect), but I'm much faster than you thought and punch you in the stomach before your hand can hit me, you're probably going to end up saying something like "GotchOOOF."



 Except you're only performing one action whereas Minato performs two. In that scenario, it's obvious the punch caught him off-guard yet here, we have every reason to believe Obito was confused by Minato's warp. 

 First, Obito's statement after the Rasengan cleary emphasizes the idea that he never believed Minato would warp to the Kunai as he outright states it which clearly indicates the idea that Obito never expected him to warp above him in the first place and should thus cause confusion.

 Next, Obito has shown the perceptive capabilities to be able to perceive Minato's speed, so we have every reason as the reader to believe that Obito would be able to react to Minato's Rasengan if he wasn't confused by Minato's warp. That fits nicely with the idea that Young Bee managed to react to Minato's blindside attempt based on anticipating where he'd warp. Even that idea is emphasized through Ei that as long as he can anticipate where Minato warps, he'd be able to crush him with his full speed which hints the idea that Hiraishin is useless without the element of surprise. That's why Minato attempted tagging Bee and Obito during moments they wouldn't even expect it.

 Finally, you can argue that Young Bee merely reacted based on the sound of Minato's voice, but if that were the case, why would Minato be able to accept the idea that if he struck Bee, then Bee would just as quickly stab him in the gut despite Minato having the upper-hand here? Clearly Bee would have at least comparable reflexes considering their reaction speed would at least be the same in that scenario. You'd literally have to assume Young Obito has worse reflexes that Young Bee and I know you believe Young Obito = Adult Obito, so let's not go there. 

 Edit: Well fuck, you actually edited your post. Now I'mma have to respond to that extra wall of text later.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Yeah, and that edit countered this point:



NarutoX28 said:


> Except you're only performing one action whereas Minato performs two.



Like I said, the disappearance and the Rasengan went together.

You are acting as if Obito processes information instantaneously. The reason he doesn't have a problem with an overt kunai thrust is because an overt kunai thrust isn't preceded by Minato suddenly not being where he was _literally_ 0.00 seconds ago. That is something Obito had to process...and before he could Minato hit him with Rasengan.

The example with Minato speed blitzing Obito and hitting him with the contract seal is even better and hurts you even more. Surely you aren't going to tell me that Obito was wondering where Minato went when Yondaime literally warped right in front of him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, and that edit countered this point:
> 
> 
> 
> Like I said, the disappearance and the Rasengan went together.



 They don't. If his strike speed was instantaneous, you'd have a point. 



> You are acting as if Obito processes information instantaneously. The reason he doesn't have a problem with an overt kunai thrust is because an overt kunai thrust isn't preceded by Minato suddenly not being where he was _literally_ 0.00 seconds ago. That is something Obito had to process...and before he could Minato hit him with Rasengan.



 You're assuming Obito is unable to process that information before Minato blindsides him with a Rasengan and we know Minato lunging his arm at his opponent isn't instantaneous. The fact that Obito can process movements faster or at least comparable Minato's own strike speed should suggest that. 




> The example with Minato speed blitzing Obito and hitting him with the contract seal is even better and hurts you even more. Surely you aren't going to tell me that Obito was wondering where Minato went when Yondaime literally warped right in front of him.



 Those are different scenarios. Minato never appeared within his LoS in the first scenario with the Rasengan while the 2nd scenario, he did and since Minato's FTG is instantaneous, Obito wouldn't be confused by someone reappearing right in front of him.

 With the Rasengan, Obito expresses shock at how Minato warped towards the Kunai implying that he never expected in the first place which signifies that the confusion stemmed from Minato's shift in location, not the Rasengan and even then, you'd have to assume that Obito simply can't process Minato's disappearance faster than Minato's strike speed which is downright false as we've seen he's capable of doing so. 

 Even then, Obito left his guard down and was more concerned about the well-being of his arm and thus, took advantage of it, so warping directly within his Field of Vision was within his capacity. Him doing so with Obito charging directly at him would not have been.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're assuming Obito is unable to process that information before Minato blindsides him with a Rasengan and we know Minato lunging his arm at his opponent isn't instantaneous.



True.

It's still irrelevant when exactly he figures out that Minato is no longer there. By the time he was done processing it, he no longer had the time to do anything about Rasengan.

So you could say that this:



			
				Rocky said:
			
		

> That is something Obito had to process...and before he could Minato hit him with Rasengan.



...is wrong, but it could be reworded to _"that is something Obito had to process...and once he did it was already too late"_ and I'd still get the point across.

There is simply not enough time to _react_ to Hiraishin. You must "proact" or predict the exact moment of its usage. It's not a matter of just seeing where he went, or else Obito would have passed through Minato's contract seal attempt. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Those are different scenarios. Minato never appeared within his LoS in the first scenario with the Rasengan while the 2nd scenario, he did and since Minato's FTG is instantaneous, Obito wouldn't be confused by someone reappearing right in front of him.



Soooo, why was he hit by the contract seal?



NarutoX28 said:


> With the Rasengan, Obito expresses shock at how Minato warped towards the Kunai implying that he never expected in the first place which signifies that the confusion stemmed from Minato's shift in location, not the Rasengan



This is not about _what_ the confusion stemmed from. It's about _when_ that confusion first occurred.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky, if the disappearance and Rasengan go together as you claim, then how in the blue hell do you explain Minato getting rapped when he tried the same thing on Juubimads with SM enhanced striking speed? It doesn't make manga sense nor logical sense. Minato jumps instantaneously but his strike speed still necessitates that there is a noticeable gap, relative to the jump, in-between the jump and his following through with his attack. You're basically saying that between the point Minato jumps and subsequently follows through with his attack that the opposition can't even form a mental thought as to what happening, which is simply ridiculous. What's even worse here in this particular case is that Minato needs to readjust himself and the angle his arm comes down at Obito because of the way his body is going into the jump and the way it would be coming out, which would noticeably compromise any momentum he had going towards Obito before his jump.

And please don't come back at me with the rebuttal of Juubimads being insanely faster than Kyuubi-Attack Obito. He is, but he isn't so fast that he's outpacing the formation of a mental reaction, even a delayed one, which is all Obito needs to activate Kamui.

Actually this is even more ridiculous then I originally thought as you're basically suggesting that Juubimads ability to process Minato's jump and react to his follow attack is quicker than Obito's ability to process Minato's jump and form a simple mental reaction.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> 't come back at me with the rebuttal of Juubimads being insanely faster than Kyuubi-Attack Obito. He is, but he isn't so fast that he's outpacing the formation of a mental reaction, even a delayed one, which is all Obito needs to activate Kamui.



No, Madara is just that fast.

By the time Madara processed Minato being in front of him, he was fast enough to react because the man was bordering on the power of Rikudo Sennin at the time.

Obito was not.



StickaStick said:


> Actually this is even more ridiculous then I originally thought as you're basically suggesting that Juubimads ability to process Minato's jump and react to his follow attack is quicker than Obito's ability to process Minato's jump and form a simple mental reaction.



That isn't ridiculous. Revived Madara with the Jubi is tiers upon tiers faster than MS Obito.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

You have to be joking.

You're literally saying that Juubimads strike speed > the amount of time it takes to form a mental reaction. Which raises a whole bunch of other ridiculous scenarios that demand explanation.

Btw, that contradicts Obito being able to process and activate Kamui in response to Juubimads attempting to strike him at point-blank range. What you're saying can't possibly be reconciled with what the manga has shown us.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You have to be joking.



My claim is that Jubi Madara can process the instantaneous warp and still respond, physically or mentally, to Minato in time. MS Obito was _incapable_ of actually responding in time, physically or mentally. (By mentally I mean with a seal-less jutsu)

Why am I supposed to see a problem with this? It's fucking Jubi Mads. He's one of the fastest characters in the entire series. 

Tell me, if Minato couldn't warp and strike before Obito could respond, then how did the contract seal connect?



StickaStick said:


> Btw, that contradicts Obito being able to process and activate Kamui in response to Juubimads attempting to strike him at point-blank range.



Wasn't Obito stronger at that point? Like a ton stronger? Kakashi got his power from Obito right?

Though even if he wasn't, it wouldn't be one of the only inconsistencies in the last arc. Though we do our best to rationalize...


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> My claim is that Jubi Madara can process the instantaneous warp and still respond, physically or mentally, to Minato in time. MS Obito was _incapable_ of actually responding in time, physically or mentally. (By mentally I mean with a seal-less jutsu)


He had to do both; i.e., process the warp (mental) and physically react (physical). Obito only needed to react mentally, albeit to a slightly greater extent then Mads did because he not only would he have to process the jump but activate Kamui as well. So, he had a whole less phase (physical reaction) to go through which, once again, means you're saying that Mads can think and strike faster than Obito can think; in which case I would ask you what led you to believe Obito is that dull  



> Why am I supposed to see a problem with this? It's fucking Jubi Mads. He's one of the fastest characters in the entire series.


The speed with which you're endowing this Madara basically suggests that he should _never _be hit. 



> Tell me, if Minato couldn't warp and strike before Obito could respond, then how did the contract seal connect?


I'm not saying Minato can't warp and strike Obito before he can respond, as he actually did. However, it's what led to the opening that made the difference, as Obito very clearly attributes his suprise afterwards towards Minato jumping to the kunai he had thrown at him; in other words, he didn't expect Minato to warp to that particular kunai so felt no reason to go intangible; although tbh I would argue he should have done so anyway for precautionary reasons.

As for the second strike I won't pretend that he possibilty should have been able to react, but when you consider that Obito had just been seriously injured and was losing his Zetsu arm, was probably still processing what had just happened, and was unaware that he'd been marked leaving feeling a false sense of security, it would not be surprising to me that given all these elements that Minato could get him with basically the most fluid motion he had with a straight kunai jab and hand on his chest. We saw something similar happen with Edo Minato and that was against adult Obito. So unless we think that Minato can jump in front of Obito and slash him faster than Juubimads can throw his hand at Obito's face then this doesn't make sense.



> Wasn't Obito stronger at that point? Like a ton stronger? Kakashi got his power from Obito right?


No, IIRC correctly Obito had been relieved of all his sage chakra at the point that the juubi had been extracted from him and it was only latter after Obito had allowed Mads attack to go through him and then pulled out parts of the tailed-beasts Naruto was missing and a part of Mads sage chakra that he regained it again. Otherwise this Obito was on his death bed.



> Though even if he wasn't, it wouldn't be one of the only inconsistencies in the last arc. Though we do our best to rationalize...


Yeah, doesn't seem necessary here though when there's a simpler explanation available.

^^^ my last response for the night.


----------



## Sans (Jun 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I didn't realize you troll pow



It's *Katsuyu.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I didn't realize you troll pow


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You have to be joking.
> 
> You're literally saying that Juubimads strike speed > the amount of time it takes to form a mental reaction. Which raises a whole bunch of other ridiculous scenarios that demand explanation.
> 
> Btw, that contradicts Obito being able to process and activate Kamui in response to Juubimads attempting to strike him at point-blank range. What you're saying can't possibly be reconciled with what the manga has shown us.



Hiraishin Ni No Dan wasn't used on Madara. Ni no dan involves getting above the opponent, and in doing so, the momentum/gravity makes the speed of the strike faster, due to the aerial position. Not to mention Minato is right handed, his rasengans were always utilised in his right hand. Not to mention obito didnt see where minato teleported to, while madara did. And then theres the fact that you are freakin comparing the strongest being/a god to a young Obito. WTF?! Obito doesnt have sage rikudo sensing to even perceive and react to such an attack.

Not really sure what it is exactly that people are arguing about over obito getting hit. But all i'll say is just look at the kunai. From the time minato had teleported and slammed the rasengan into obitos back, the kunai was still in the same position it was when minato teleported. Showing exceptional striking speed.


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## Sans (Jun 21, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato takes it, when Minato starts tossing his Kunais Nagato can just sustain his ST barrier and it will all be deflected. On top of that, ST isn't something you can see or percieve especially if it's specifically directed at someone.
> On top of that, Nagato has summonings. Cerberus will cause some problems. He would have multiplied several times over before Minato actually formulates a plan for it.
> Also, a Deva Path who finished using CST and was getting chakra transmitted to him from a emaciated Nagato who happened to be far away, was able to oneshott 3 huge toads. Seeing as how this is just Minato vs a healthy Nagato, depending on how much force he puts behind it a STT will end it shortly.


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## Sans (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If you go to slap me and say "gotcha" (because you assume the slap will connect), but I'm much faster than you thought and punch you in the stomach before your hand can hit me, you're probably going to end up saying something like "GotchOOOF."
> 
> That is what happened with Obito. He doesn't stop saying/thinking gotcha because Minato warped away (that makes no sense given the panel order).  "Gotch-" is just all Obito could manage to think before he was suddely hit by a Rasengan.
> 
> ...



Gotch- oh my you're very fast whatever will I do now - HUGHUGHGUHGUUHGUGH ow.

#Turrin #rekt


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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Hiraishin Ni No Dan wasn't used on Madara. Ni no dan involves getting above the opponent, and in doing so, the momentum/gravity makes the speed of the strike faster, due to the aerial position. Not to mention Minato is right handed, his rasengans were always utilised in his right hand. Not to mention obito didnt see where minato teleported to, while madara did. And then theres the fact that you are freakin comparing the strongest being/a god to a young Obito. WTF?! Obito doesnt have sage rikudo sensing to even perceive and react to such an attack.
> 
> Not really sure what it is exactly that people are arguing about over obito getting hit. But all i'll say is just look at the kunai. From the time minato had teleported and slammed the rasengan into obitos back, the kunai was still in the same position it was when minato teleported. Showing exceptional striking speed.



exactly both situations have nothing in common 
madara has sage sensing and the kunai landed in front of him, of course it will be easier for him with much more battle exp and sensing to predict where minato will appear 

obito did not know minato could or would wrap to the moving kunai behind him

now while hirashin is fast obito got hit because he got confused as to where minato went

the very fact that minato uses 6 kunai and a clone in a hirashin rasengan combo goes to show hirashin is just as much about confusion than it is about speed

@Arugs 


I think hirashin clone swap should work just fine tbh. if ST hits him and he is sent flying and then creates a clone and swaps with said clone that should negate the damage done by ST 

maybe that would work better than just using hirashin


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm starting to doubt your ability to comprehend information.
> 
> _I_ never claimed that Obito willfully stopped thinking gotcha. That was you.
> 
> ...


Okay so, "---" Indicates that his thought is interrupted. That's a fact. That happens, as you admit before Minato even uses Hiraishin. That's why it doesn't make sense that Rasengan could have stopped his thought, because it had already stopped 2 panels previously.

This is because in Japanese a dash after a letter, indicates a lengthening of that symbols vowel.  

So in this case it would be 勝つ = Katsu, adding the ー that isn't naturally there, as you don't repeat the "u" in "Tsu" [つ] multiple times in the word win, would be read as the speaker stuttering. Katsuuuu. So something is causing Obito to mince his words in that panel, which is before he uses Hiraishin.

You on the other hand seem to be implying it's something like a hyphen, when there are no such things as hyphens in Japanese. That's why when there is a pause in ones thoughts it's indicated by "...." or if there is a break and resume it's indicated by:

My Dog is Red.... 
...but his nose is Yellow 

So the proper grammar for what your suggesting wouldn't be 勝つー, than next panel, than ぐはっ. It would be 勝つ..., panel, ...ぐはっ!!

Edit: I suspect Shitpanda made the same mistake as you and treated it like hyphen hence doing it as such 勝つー, panel, ーぐはっ!!, but that's simply not linguistically accurate to my knowledge, is not in the original text as I showed, and is certainly not present in the Viz which is a whole lot more trusty worthy than Shitpanda on average [though they do make mistakes].


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Can you post the viz? I don't like arguing against you in matters of the actual language, but I can't see how Obito thought would be interrupted because of Minato's jump in the panel_ before Minato actually jumps._


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 21, 2015)

Is Minato allowed BM or KCM in this thread? If so, I don't see him using them in time. Why use Kurama on a foe you know nothing about? Before the situation was dealing with the Juubi and using a powerful seal (so Minato can't use the Hokage seal without KCM?).

Granted when you factor in KCM/BM, it becomes a harder fight to call. 
Base Minato though, I'm pretty sure loses.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> True.
> 
> It's still irrelevant when exactly he figures out that Minato is no longer there. By the time he was done processing it, he no longer had the time to do anything about Rasengan.



 Because he never expected him to slam him with a Rasengan, he expected him to warp to the Kunai he left behind previous to the clash as he had always used FTG defensively up until this point where Minato even claims he used a more "advanced" FTG at this point.

 But actually, just to prove that Obito can process Minato's disappearance relatively quickly, I'll present these 2 scans here:

 “She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”

 “She wants to save you, there is nothing more to it”


 The 1st scan represents that despite Obito lacking knowledge on Minato's ability to perform a mental reaction, still managed to perceive that Minato disappeared while the next scan afterwards represents how Obito managed to perceive Minato's disappearance almost instantaenously as Obito's reaction was made at approximately the same time Minato crashed to the ground. I realize that the time it took for Minato to crash to the ground deducts some time from Obito's ability to perceive that meaning it wasn't instantaneous (clearly as that'd be OP), but that's still pretty damn fast regardless.




> So you could say that this:
> 
> 
> 
> ...is wrong, but it could be reworded to _"that is something Obito had to process...and once he did it was already too late"_ and I'd still get the point across.



 But as I said before, he can process Minato's disappearance far quicker than Minato's strike speed. Hell, he's capable of perceiving Minato's Shunshin speed easily, so I doubt he'd be unable to perceive Minato's disappearance before he blindsides him with a Rasengan.



> There is simply not enough time to _react_ to Hiraishin. You must "proact" or predict the exact moment of its usage. It's not a matter of just seeing where he went, or else Obito would have passed through Minato's contract seal attempt.



 Young Bee did it twice by predicting Minato's Hiraishin attempt, same as Young Ei did despite being caught in his Max Shunshin speed, so I don't see why this isn't the case.





> Soooo, why was he hit by the contract seal?



 Because Minato caught him in a time where Obito was caught off-guard. He tagged him during his Rasengan attempt and Obito was clearly stunned and was more concerned about his arm's well-being, hence why he was clutching it afterwards which hindered his ability to react. Minato managed to tag him with a contract seal simply because he caught him off-guard with that Hiraishin and he also clutched the Kunai he tagged Obito with and had his hand positioned for the contract seal simultaneously. Minato channeling chakra into his hand to perform the seal would be far greater than his normal strike speed which is likely why Obito never expected it. That, and his attention shifted towards Minato's unexpected warp which hindered his ability to focus on other attempts of Minato disarming Obito.





> This is not about _what_ the confusion stemmed from. It's about _when_ that confusion first occurred.



 I actually see your point there, but hopefully I did prove that Obito could perceive Minato's disappearance before Minato slammed him with a Rasengan.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because he never expected him to slam him with a Rasengan, he expected him to warp to the Kunai he left behind previous to the clash as he had always used FTG defensively...



You just made that up.

Minato threw a kunai through Obito and formed a Rasengan before he went anywhere, and yet you think that Obito saw Minato leave, pondered where he went, and concluded that he took that Rasengan and jumped to the kunai he used earlier, _which would have been directly in Obito's sight line,_ but not close enough to actually use that Rasengan? 

Just stop. This is getting worse. Minato warped behind Obito and hit him before he was quick enough to respond with Kamui. Then later Minato warped in front of him before he was quick enough to respond with Kamui. Minato doesn't need anytime to process his own jumps because he knows exactly when and where they'll be, and while his opponents figure out he's gone he hits them. 

I haven't seen any feats from Nagato that suggest he'd do any better, so he gets marked and eventually stabbed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You just made that up.
> 
> Minato threw a kunai through Obito and formed a Rasengan before he went anywhere, and yet you think that Obito saw Minato leave, pondered where he went, and concluded that he took that Rasengan and jumped to the kunai he used earlier, _which would have been directly in Obito's sight line,_ but not close enough to actually use that Rasengan?



 If you want to be narrow-minded, then sure. Minato doesn't have to use that Rasengan. If he realizes that the situation is too risky, he can simply avoid it like he has against all of Obito's maneuvors until he used a more "advanced" version of FTG which tipped Obito off-guard and caused confusion as he never expected him to warp to his Kunai.



> Just stop. This is getting worse. Minato warped behind Obito and hit him before he was quick enough to respond with Kamui. Then later Minato warped in front of him before he was quick enough to respond with Kamui. Minato doesn't need anytime to process his own jumps because he knows exactly when and where they'll be, and while his opponents figure out he's gone he hits them.



 Man, I feel like your dodging a lot of my points. Most of these points I've already addressed previously. 



> I haven't seen any feats from Nagato that suggest he'd do any better, so he gets marked and eventually stabbed.



 Even though I gave you a reason as to why we could at least give Nagato B's perceptive feats?


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> If you want to be narrow-minded, then sure. Minato doesn't have to use that Rasengan. If he realizes that the situation is too risky



And why would the situation be too risky.

I'm pretty much done here.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And why would the situation be too risky.
> 
> I'm pretty much done here.



 Because from Obito's perspective, all of Minato's Kunai used for FTG have been used for defensive purposes. Obito believed he had won the clash based on the fact that he had superior strike speed. Obito never anticipated Minato warping towards that Kunai, hence why the situation was too risky for Minato just to clash with Obito.

 But yeah, I'm pretty much done here.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

And in what panel does Kishimoto show Obito pondering all of that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)




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## Icegaze (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because from Obito's perspective, all of Minato's Kunai used for FTG have been used for defensive purposes. Obito believed he had won the clash based on the fact that he had superior strike speed. Obito never anticipated Minato warping towards that Kunai, hence why the situation was too risky for Minato just to clash with Obito.
> 
> But yeah, I'm pretty much done here.



let me pitch in here

can you explain then why a tagged juubito who is leagues above obito in everything can still get hit by the likes of SM Naruto? and tobirama? u know people 3 tiers below him ?

yet you make up this scenario and give obito excuses instead of the obvious truth 

the guy was blitz twice casually by hirashin plain and simple. Minato strike speed obviously goes in line with it and is easy to achieve because unless the target is a sensor or have eyes behind their back they have no way of knowing where minato will appear. its been shown juubito couldn't. why would nagato be able to. 



I mean kishi has already shown us how it can be used against juubi jin's

minato tags you, he 1 shots. plain and simple 

I don't see why nagato will somehow be immune to that. 

he gets at nagato, nagato uses ST. clearly ST only harms you when you crash into something, while he is flying backwards minato can create a clone hirashin swap with that clone and hit nagato 

a tagged nagato is a dead nagato 11/10

*the only one who has shown to counter minato hirashin is juudara. just saying* A was deluded to think he could track minato considering he basically failed right after claiming he could predict where minato would land


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

> Because he never expected him to slam him with a Rasengan, he expected him to warp to the Kunai he left behind previous to the clash as he had always used FTG defensively...



He didn't expect anything but victory, because he thought he had won.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Can you post the viz? I don't like arguing against you in matters of the actual language, but I can't see how Obito thought would be interrupted because of Minato's jump in the panel_ before Minato actually jumps._



I am going to assume you mean this page, even tho I don't know what you 2 are debating about. lol


----
To be honest never thought this thread will go this long. I thought I am the only one who would have argued for Minato.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Do you have the page before that?


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

Yes. 
*Spoiler*: __


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

Welp, looks like Obito's victory thought wasn't actually interrupted. 

Though there's still no sign of Obito processing Minato's warp before he was hit.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

Gak is back.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> let me pitch in here
> 
> can you explain then why a tagged juubito who is leagues above obito in everything can still get hit by the likes of SM Naruto? and tobirama? u know people 3 tiers below him ?
> 
> yet you make up this scenario and give obito excuses instead of the obvious truth



 Turrin already refuted this.

 Juubito presented no sign of shock meaning he anticipated the attack, but in that situation, Juubito clearly indicates that he didn't expect himself to have such a major weak-spot. After protecting it, he managed to react to both BM Minato and BSM Naruto easily.

 But tell me, why wouldn't Juubito have anticipated the attack here when Tobirama and the others had always attacked him from the rear end? It was obvious that Juubito would predict Tobirama's predictable warp considering he always warped towards his rear. 

 Link removed

 This pretty much emphasizes that as he read into their attack afterwards. 

 For your faulty logic to actually work here, you're going to have to prove that Base Minato's strike speed is on par with SM Naruto's strike speed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> He didn't expect anything but victory, because he thought he had won.



 He expected him to warp towards the Kunai the moment he warped.

 I've already proven how Obito can process Minato's disappearance very quickly and can process information on speeds comparable to Minato's strike speed, so there's no reason he didn't perceive Minato's disappearance.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

He's preempting any back attacks by putting a static death orb behind him.  Preparing ahead of time.  That doesn't disagree with what we said Bee did.  

If he could react to the jump after they appeared, put up a defence from nothing, and attack before Minato or Tobirama could strike, he would do that instead.  Why?  Well because he'd have tricked them into thinking another attack would work, and annihilate them when they tried.  But instead he prepared an attack ahead of time, and tipped his hand to Tobirama.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He expected him to warp towards the Kunai the moment he warped.
> 
> I've already proven how Obito can process Minato's disappearance very quickly and can process information on speeds comparable to Minato's strike speed, so there's no reason he didn't perceive Minato's disappearance.



Except you proved nothing.  Obito can go to where Minato warped after a few seconds.  Big deal.  That doesn't mean he can counter a hiraishin to the face.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

I don't see what's so hard to understand here. Obito clearly didn't expect Minato to warp to the kunai that had just went through his head, clearly indicating why he wouldn't have phased in response to Minato's attack. He was expecting him to go elsewhere. Those arguing for an intermediary panel showing Obito pondering Minato's jump are arguing against basic physical limitations and against how FTG actually works. Just because we don't see the moment between Minato jumping and his having to follow through with his attack doesn't mean it isn't here.

Naruto2X8 had it right when he showed plain as daylight that Obito could phase in response to Minato's strike speed so, ergo, Obito can react to Minato's strike speed. Cementing this is the fact that Obito actually responded to a quicker strike than what Minato's Rasengan coming off his jump would have presented. 

So in this case I believe it's best to just go with what the manga is telling us and accept that Obito was hit because he was unsuspecting of Minato's intention to jump to the kunai that he had just thrown at him.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

You do realize that the moment that Minato jumps is concurrent with the swing of Rasengan, right? 

That would mean that the time it takes for Obito to actually realize Minato went somewhere is time that he doesn't have to react to the actual Rasengan.

Obito's ability to react to Minato's strike speed when it isn't preceded by Hiraishin is meaningless.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You do realize that the moment that Minato jumps is concurrent with the swing of Rasengan, right?
> 
> That would mean that the time it takes for Obito to actually realize Minato went somewhere is time that he doesn't have to react to the actual Rasengan.
> 
> Obito's ability to react to Minato's strike speed when it isn't preceded by Hiraishin is meaningless.


Except it's not. Again, that is counter-intuitive to how FTG works. When Minato jumps he is racing towards Obito, so when he comes out on the other side he is _not _already slamming his arm down at Obito's back. He has to adjust himself first.

Edit: Btw, you still haven't address why Obito would attribute his being open to a blow from Minato to Minato unsuspectingly jumping to that particular kunai and not to Minato's subsequent attack being too fast for him to react to.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

People keeps putting excuses even tho the manga never mentioned them. If Kishi's intension is for us to see X thing as an excuse to why a character won/lost, he will simply pointed it out. Otherwise, it's looking too much into things and trying to find something that actually isn't there.

For example, when Nagato was sealed, the next chapter Kishi pointed out that he can't walk. When Danzo was defeated, Kishi made Obito talk about Danzo's Koto and that he couldn't use it. When Hiruzen was struggling against Oro, Kishi made it clear several times that he has chakra issues

and so on and so forth. If he did not put those things, then he obviously does not give X character the excuse.
In this case, that's apply to Obito. We don't see him bitching about that. The kid admitted his defeat and moved on, and so should you...


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Can you post the viz? I don't like arguing against you in matters of the actual language, but I can't see how Obito thought would be interrupted because of Minato's jump in the panel_ before Minato actually jumps._


That's because Minato does not vanish in the 4th Panel. He vanishes in the 3rd Panel. It's just that the SFX for Hiraishin, for whatever reason happens after Minato has already vanished. 

If you look here the SFX, that happens on the 4th Panel is happening at the same time that Rin is saying "Kakashi". Since Rin had enough time to notice Minato appearing with Kakashi and say his name by the time the SFX happened, the SFX happens a decent amount of time after Minato has already completed his teleport:



Why Kishi does that IDK fucking know, but at the very least this shows that he plays around with when and where that SFX happens. 

As far as the Viz translation it's:

Obito, "I win..." 
Panel
Obito, "Gak!!"

Viz makes the choice of using triple ellipses after the "I win" to represent Obito being interrupted, because that better fits the American style Comic Book grammar, but does not put triple elipses in-front of "Gak" because the two are not one interconnected sentiment. This blurb about American Comic Book grammar will explain it to you:


"The ellipsis is used when a character's speech trails off. If a character is speaking, trails off, and then resumes in another balloon, you should always end the first dialogue with an ellipsis and then begin the second dialogue with an ellipsis"


So again if your hypothesis had merit it would be

Obito, "I win..."
Panel
Obito, "...Gak!!"

But since it's just "I win..." or in the Raw "It's My Winー", what your asserting simply does not make linguistic sense. And since we have an examples of Kishi having the SFX happen after Minato's already teleported or at least playing hard and fast with the SFX's timing, the only rational explanation that fits linguistically, is that Minato vanishes off panel, Obito reacts to this a the end of the third panel , and than Kishi gives us the Hiraishin SFX on the 4th panel to let us know Minato had used Hiraishin to teleport.

Edit: BTW this is an actual example from the manga of what your talking about, so you can see the difference:




Kisame, "why, was retreat necessary..." "....if it's you...."


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

> If you look here the SFX, that happens on the 4th Panel is happening at the same time that Rin is saying "Kakashi". Since Rin had enough time to notice Minato appearing with Kakashi and say his name by the time the SFX happened, the SFX happens a decent amount of time after Minato has already* completed his teleport:*



Does  not that sfx indicates Shunshin? 
three
Minato did not use FTG to get Kakashi back.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> People keeps putting excuses even tho the manga never mentioned them. If Kishi's intension is for us to see X thing as an excuse to why a character won/lost, he will simply pointed it out. Otherwise, it's looking too much into things and trying to find something that actually isn't there.
> 
> For example, when Nagato was sealed, the next chapter Kishi pointed out that he can't walk. When Danzo was defeated, Kishi made Obito talk about Danzo's Koto and that he couldn't use it. When Hiruzen was struggling against Oro, Kishi made it clear several times that he has chakra issues
> 
> ...


I hate to say it Hussain, but Minato actually made Obito's excuse for him. 



This makes sense because Obito has never been one to get into a sprinting contest with the opposition and discard moving deceptively; it also helps explain why he may have discarded the the thought that Minato might jump to the kunai that had just been thrown at him since he would not have been interested in chasing Minato around as he teleported from kunai to kunai.

You could also bring up the stuff about the Kyuubi being preoccupied with the rest of the village and whatnot but I know how you feel about that so I'll leave it alone


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I hate to say it Hussain, but Minato actually made Obito's excuse for him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Not sure what does this have to do with the whole Obito's thought or whatever honestly.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Not sure what does this have to do with the whole Obito's thought or whatever honestly.


You were talking about excuses being made during fights...


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Except it's not. Again, that is counter-intuitive to how FTG works. When Minato jumps he is racing towards Obito, so when he comes out on the other side he is _not _already slamming his arm down at Obito's back. He has to adjust himself first.



Did you not read the Raikage flashback? 

He chooses what his position is coming out of FTG. 

Any "adjustment time" is negligible. 



StickaStick said:


> Edit: Btw, you still haven't address why Obito would attribute his being open to a blow from Minato to Minato unsuspectingly jumping to that particular kunai and not to Minato's subsequent attack being too fast for him to react to.



I think I had a long post but NF destroyed it. 

Anyway, what's your point here? All Obito says is "he went to that kunai," which is how Minato was able to get him. Obito wasn't expecting Minato to warp _at all._ That's why his last thought was "I win."

If Obito had some way of predicting the exact moment that Minato would have jumped, I do think he'd phase through the Rasengan. Thing is, Obito doesn't have a way of anticipating. He was reliant upon his reflexes, and they were not fast enough to respond.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> You were talking about excuses being made during fights...



Minato is only saying he is vulnerable when he attacks, that's because he obviously needs to be physical to attack. That how Kamui works my dear. 

I think that obviously what Minato meant based on his previous analysing of Kamui (the previous panel).


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Did you not read the Raikage flashback?
> 
> He chooses what his position is coming out of FTG.
> 
> Any "adjustment time" is negligible.


If you could link me to the specific instance you're referring to.



> I think I had a long post but NF destroyed it.
> 
> Anyway, what's your point here? All Obito says is "he went to that kunai," which is how Minato was able to get him. Obito wasn't expecting Minato to warp _at all._ That's why his last thought was "I win."
> 
> If Obito had some way of predicting the exact moment that Minato would have jumped, I do think he'd phase through the Rasengan. Thing is, Obito doesn't have a way of anticipating. He was reliant upon his reflexes, and they were not fast enough to respond.


Of course he wasn't expecting Minato to jump, but it's that combined with the fact that he jumped to that particular kunai that led to him being hit. Otherwise, Obito (Kishi) would have qualified it by adding that Minato's attack would have been too fast anyway. Something like: "Shit.. he teleported to the kunai just then... [and I could not avoid his attack]". Instead, Obito _purely _attributes it to Minato unsuspectingly jumping to that kunai. We can't assume from this that Obito could not have reacted otherwise, as I and others have pointed out numerous times throughout this thread that that doesn't make sense.  



Hussain said:


> Minato is only saying he is vulnerable when he attacks. That's because he obviously need to be physical to attack. That how Kamui works my dear.
> 
> I think that obviously what Minato meant based on his previous analysing of Kamui (the previous panel).


It's like I said in my last post: being pressed for time Minato knew that Obito would act hastily in order to avoid losing control of the Kyuubi. It's this act of haste that ultimately led to Obito rushing at Minato in a foot race and probably what led to his discarding the notion that Minato might jump to that particular kunai.

If Minato was simply pointing out that attacking a all was a risk for Obito, he would not have added the statement about Obito being rushed for time. That fact made taking advantage of the first easier.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

Act hastily?  I don't know from where you came up with this honestly. Minato did not say anything about this. Wanting to finish the battle as fast as possible does not mean you have to act that way. Or are u saying Minato also wanted to take his time because he never gave a fuck about who dies of his people? lol


Also, Kurama was going to attack konoha either way as even when Obito lost control, Kurama kept attacking.


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## StickaStick (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Act hastily?  I don't know from where you came up with this honestly.


Uhh...

*hast?i?ly
ˈhāstəlē/Submit
adverb
with excessive speed or urgency; hurriedly.*



> Minato did not say anything about this.


Not wanting a fight to drag on = acting with excessive speed or urgency; bring hurried.

I mean, come on dude.



> Wanting to finish the battle as fast as possible does not mean you have to act that way. Or are u saying Minato also wanted to take his time because he never gave a fuck about who dies of his people? lol


Hussain, Minato's whole fighting style revolves around speed. I have to be blunt and say that you're kidding yourself if you believe this was a disadvantage for him and an advantage to someone (Obito) who prefers to fight deceptively and _not _head-on, particularly foot-race style with one of thee fastest men to grace the manga.



> Also, Kurama was going to attack konoha either way as even when Obito lost control, Kurama kept attacking.


To be frank, it really doesn't matter _why _Obito wanted to keep the Kyuubi under his control. The fact of the matter is that he _did _and his mindset was set accordingly. To argue against this is to argue against Minato's blatant statement that he knew Obito would be rushed because of it.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

Minato's fighting style is based on a S/T jutsu, and so does Obito's.
Anyway


> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...




 why are we arguing this in this thread anyway?


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> If you could link me to the specific instance you're referring to.



Pretty much every single instance Minato uses Hiraishin.

Minato starts like _this_, and ends up at the tree like so. He doesn't arrive at the tree looking like he did when he left.

He has has arms down when A charges in the second time, but has his kunai raised when he gets to B.



StickaStick said:


> Otherwise, Obito (Kishi) would have qualified it by adding that Minato's attack would have been too fast anyway. Something like: "Shit.. he teleported to the kunai just then... [and I could not avoid his attack]".



That's redundant. It goes without saying that Minato went too fast for Obito to avoid the attack. It happened on panel. That why the 4th Hokage won the battle of _speed._

I really don't know what you're trying to say. Yes, the reason Obito was hit was because Minato teleported to that marker. Minato actually had to hit him though.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Does  not that sfx indicates Shunshin?
> _this_
> Minato did not use FTG to get Kakashi back.



I love how fanboys speak in Zen Riddles


Does not the SFX equal Shunshin?
Minato did not use Hiraishin to save Kakashi
But SFX constantly used for Hiraishin
So the Shunshin is Hiraishin?

[YOUTUBE]Pm_vqjxzvWI[/YOUTUBE]


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

I did not understand anything honestly. Either way, just forget about it. My bad...


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

If Obito processed Minato warp, then can _someone_ tell me why there was no sign of that in the actual panel? A question mark or exclamation point _would_ have been there.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If Obito processed Minato warp, then can _someone_ tell me why there was no sign of that in the actual panel? A question mark or exclamation point _would_ have been there.


I've been telling you the sign for about 6 pages now Rocky it's the japanese usage of the  "ー". If you refuse to acknowledge that it's really nobodies problem but your own.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If Obito processed Minato warp, then can _someone_ tell me why there was no sign of that in the actual panel? A question mark or exclamation point _would_ have been there.



I haven't read your debates (any of the previous pages )
but why is that important anyway? 

Whether he did or not, he got smashed...


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

What you told me, are better yet what's in the viz doesn't actually show Obito processing anything. It shows the "I win" thought trailing off or stalling, which is likely just him waiting for conformation. 

Had he actually processed it before he was hit there would have been an exclamation. But there wasn't, which fits with the Databook saying that Obito wouldn't be confused until after the vanish & strike combo had been completed.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What you told me, are better yet what's in the viz doesn't actually show Obito processing anything. It shows the "I win" thought trailing off or stalling, which is likely just him waiting for conformation.
> 
> Had he actually processed it before he was hit there would have been an exclamation. But there wasn't, which fits with the Databook saying that Obito wouldn't be confused until after the vanish & strike combo had been completed.


I provided you with a detailed explanation of why linguistically it indicates his thought was interrupted by something, so no you are wrong.

But bottom line I fucking give up, with your never ending list of excuses, it's very clear to me now that your not concerned with what actually occurred in the manga. So Have fun drowning in de nile.


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## thechickensage (Jun 21, 2015)

I'm pretty confused by Turrin/Rocky's debate-within-a-debate.  Debate-ception.  Could you summarize your positions in like 1-2 sentences each?  I'm sort of lost.

Anyway, with regards to your mini-debate, Obito trained with Minato, and fought with Minato during the war.  So he should have more detailed knowledge of how FTG works in combat than almost everyone else.   

I assume that Minato can choose his orientation in space when he warps, and that he retains his momentum when he arrives at his destination.  Like the law of conservation of momentum in Portal, but without the rigid handling of orientation.  I was thinking he could teleport anywhere within a sphere a few meters in diameter, in any orientation he wants.  

SO, he wouldnt have to finish the swing fully, he could start swinging the Rasengan and BAMF he teleports in a way so he ends up hitting within an instant.  

Do people agree with that?  That he can choose his orientation and distance from the FTG seal, but he retains his momentum.


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## Hasan (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I haven't read your debates (any of the previous pages )
> but why is that important anyway?
> 
> Whether he did or not, he got smashed...





thechickensage said:


> I'm pretty confused by Turrin/Rocky's debate-within-a-debate.  Debate-ception.  Could you summarize your positions in like 1-2 sentences each?  I'm sort of lost.



They were arguing whether or not, Minato's *striking speed* was instantaneous... I believe. Rocky thought that Obito apparently being cut mid-sentence was due to Rasengan smashing into his back, and that continues into the "GAAK!". Thus showing that Minato's striking speed was instantaneous. Turrin clarified (or attempted to) that was not the case... that Obito was not cut mid-sentence, rather he noticed Minato disappearing in the last second. In other words, there was a brief delay before Rasengan hit Obito, which in turn implies that Minato's striking speed is not instantaneous, although he _teleports_. _Well, something along the lines that the anime depicted, and not this_.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> SO, he wouldnt have to finish the swing fully, he could start swinging the Rasengan and BAMF he teleports in a way so he ends up hitting within an instant.
> 
> Do people agree with that?  That he can choose his orientation and distance from the FTG seal, but he retains his momentum.



 Sorry, but I don't understand your reasoning. He simply can't begin and finish his swing in the time it takes for him to warp to the Kunai. Not only does Minato not have the reflexes to do that, it's physically impossible to perform at speeds comparable to the speed of light.


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## Turrin (Jun 21, 2015)

It's very simple

Obito notices Minato vanish, but before he can figure out where Minato has gone he's hit by Rasengan. Rather than Obito simply being hit because he completely could not see anything that went on. Or to put it another way the discussion is whether Hiraishin is effective because it just speed, or is it effective because Minato uses it strategically to confuse the enemy in conjunction with it's high speed. I believe, well I should say the manga factually tells us it's the latter.


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## Rocky (Jun 21, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> ISO, he wouldnt have to finish the swing fully, he could start swinging the Rasengan and BAMF he teleports in a way so he ends up hitting within an instant.



Fucking thank you.



NarutoX28 said:


> He simply can't begin and finish his swing in the time it takes for him to warp to the Kunai.



That wasn't what he was saying.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

@Hasan

I see. Thanks +Rep. 

as for the rest. What do you think of the Databook claim?


> Hiraishin Ni no Dan / Flying Thunder God Level 2
> Ninjutsu, A-rank, Offensive, Close-range
> User: Namikaze Minato
> 
> ...



Even tho I honestly think that is simply judged by the plot. Like for example, those


but when it came to Madara, the thing changed automatically. 
Same shit with Tobirama when he attacked Izuna, and how it was different when attacking madara. 

but I believe the FTG's speed changes, so...


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Fucking thank you.
> 
> 
> 
> That wasn't what he was saying.



 I never said I understood what he was saying. I honestly skimmed through his post doe, so I don't feel that bad.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> but I believe the FTG's speed changes, so...





 I didn't know the speed of light fluctuates.


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## Trojan (Jun 21, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I didn't know the speed of light fluctuates.



you do now.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> you do now.



 Because their reflexes are inferior, so thus, the timing of their FTG would be too slow to perform their combination attack successfully.

 If I'm wrong, then damn, science really is changing.


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because their reflexes are inferior, so thus, the timing of their FTG would be too slow to perform their combination attack successfully.
> 
> If I'm wrong, then damn, science really is changing.



I think Tobirama clearly said the FTG IS too slow. 
not sure from where the reflexes came. Also, the clones have the same reflexes as the original.


He neither talked about reflexes, nor about any timing.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I think Tobirama clearly said the FTG IS too slow.
> not sure from where the reflexes came. Also, the clones have the same reflexes as the original.
> 
> 
> He neither talked about reflexes, nor about any timing.



 This is where common sense is applied.


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

AH, I think I finally understand the debate:

ANSWER ME THIS, TURRIN AND ROCKY:

Are all 4 of these VALID ways for Minato to teleport?


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2015)

lol, that drawing is hilarious.  
+rep

Edit:
can't rep you again now. 

@ NarutoX28

your common sense is your own business man. I am debating the manga, not your common sense.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Yes       .


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> AH, I think I finally understand the debate:
> 
> ANSWER ME THIS, TURRIN AND ROCKY:
> 
> Are all 4 of these VALID ways for Minato to teleport?



VALID AS FUCK



*Spoiler*: __ 



All I see is this, when I click on the linkw


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

SORRY I submitted a huge version, I changed it to a smaller one.

Also, Turrin: do you think those are valid uses of FTG? 

1.  Minato teleports to the left
2.  To the right
3.  He has changed his angle relative to the kunai
4.  he has changed his angle AND HIS POSITION relative to the kunai

ALSO, if you notice, Minato grew a beard.
*
The key to this debate-within-a-debate is whether or not you think those are all valid teleportations.*

I'll repost here so it's on this page too: 


AND here's why it matters:
If he can pretty much control the orientation AND positioning of his body overall with respect to the kunai, then he doesn't have to "finish" the full swing of his arm in order to hit a person

In 1a and 2a, Minato teleports up to the dude, but STILL HAS TO FINISH HIS SWING
in 1b, Minato teleports, changing his position and angle relative to his target so that not only is he in position, he is also going to hit his target almost instantaneously as soon as he appears


With the first way of attacking, it took two sequential steps, with the second way of attacking, it took 1.05 steps.  

THIS to me was the debate you two were having with SO MANY WORDS.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> SORRY I submitted a huge version, I changed it to a smaller one.
> 
> Also, Turrin: do you think those are valid uses of FTG?  So:
> 
> ...


First off you misunderstand there is no debate, the linguistics of the manga prove Rocky wrong, he just refuses to admit it. This isn't opinion based it's just fact.

Now as for what your driving at which is why can't Minato teleport in such a way that his Rasengan is already hitting his enemy when he reappears. The answer is simple, Hiraishin users seemingly can't occupy the same space as another person. So Minato and his weapons/jutsu can't overlap with someone when he reappears. Therefore when he reappears he's still going to have to push his Rasengan into the target, due to the fact that teleporting where it's already hitting the target would require overlap. Which ultimately means performing a striking motion with his arm.

It's still very quick, but Minato whenever he uses Hiraishin, needs to decide to use it, activate it, and than perform at least an arm motion after using it. As long as someone knows Minato is attacking them and can react to that arm motion they are going to be able to defend Minato's Hiraishin. Hence what we see with B, Obito, Madara, etc...

And if this was not the case no one no matter if they were JuubiJins or not would be able to react to Hiraishin and there would be no point to Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

He performs the arm motion _as_ he is using Hiraishin (which is what I believe thechickensage is getting at), because the actual usage of an instantaneous jutsu takes no time to complete. 

Obito can react to Minato's Rasengan, but not when it happens at the same time as FTG. The only way he'd be able to do that is if he had some way of knowing exactly when FTG was going to be used.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He performs the arm motion _as_ he is using Hiraishin (which is what I believe thechickensage is getting at), because the actual usage of an instantaneous jutsu takes no time to complete.
> 
> Obito can react to Minato's Rasengan, but not when it happens at the same time as FTG. The only way he'd be able to do that is if he had some way of knowing exactly when FTG was going to be used.



He can't complete the arm motion at the same time as Hiraishin unless his movements are instantaneous. Ether that or Hiraishin is not instant. Pick your poison de nail crocodile.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 22, 2015)

If a picture is worth 1000 words, Turrin would still use a flip book to get to the point.


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin, answer the question!

Were all 4 of those teleportations valid?  

And keep in mind that I didnt say ANYTHING about two people occupying the same physical space.  

IF YOU BELIEVE those were valid teleportations, then you HAVE TO BELIEVE THAT Minato could teleport his whole body so that *without changing the relative positioning of his limbs*, the rasengan hovers 3 millimeters above his target's body.  

Your assumption in all of this debate was that he has to physically "finish" the attack movement relative to the 0 position.  

He just has to get momentum on his arm, then he can teleport such that the rasengan is immediately above the enemy and will land within 1/1000th of a second (or whatever)


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If a picture is worth 1000 words, Turrin would still use a flip book to get to the point.


Stick and stones may break my bones, but your arguments still fanfiction


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He can't complete the arm motion at the same time as Hiraishin unless his movements are instantaneous. Ether that or Hiraishin is not instant. Pick your poison de nail crocodile.



...but he isn't _completing_ the arm motion before Hiraishin, only starting it and taking advantage if the extra thing Obito has to react to. 

Say it's me vs. you. If I punch you, you'd have no issues blocking me because we're comparable in overall body speed and reflexes. 

If I instantly appear behind you while throwing that same punch, you'd need a moment to realise that I left your vision before you could even _start_ responding to the punch. At that point I'm going to have enough time to hit you.


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He can't complete the arm motion at the same time as Hiraishin unless his movements are instantaneous. Ether that or Hiraishin is not instant. Pick your poison de nail crocodile.



I said THIS in my above above post: 
"With the first way of attacking, it took two sequential steps, with the second way of attacking, it took 1.05 steps."

The .05 additional step is how long it would take to bring the rasengan from 3 millimeters from the target's surface all the way to 0 millimeters.

(you should answer my question about the 4 teleportations being valid)


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Turrin, answer the question!
> 
> Were all 4 of those teleportations valid?
> 
> ...


So your asking me if I believe Minato can teleport in such a way that he can determine the exact position which he reappears down to millimeters. Than the answer is no I don't think he has that level of precision.  I think he can teleport in such a way that his attack is close to the enemy and he only needs to perform a single lunge or slash to hit the enemy or freefall with gravity for a few inches. 

But no it's not milimeters and the speed of his attack after FTG is not the speed of Kirin, if it was no one, not even Madara/Obito and especially not B would be reacting to it, but they consistently have.

Hiraishin works because the enemy looses sight of the caster and in that moment of confusion, the caster can complete a very quick attack before they can figure out the casters position to defend themselves. That's why all of Hiraishin's usages Hiraishingiri, Hiraishin R2, Rasen Flash dance, are based around targeting moments where the user can catch the enemy off guard.

However if the enemy knows where the user teleported too and they are reasonable fast they will be able to react to the successive attack. That's what we saw with B and Obito/Madara



Rocky said:


> ...but he isn't _completing_ the arm motion before Hiraishin, only starting it and taking advantage if the extra thing Obito has to react to.
> 
> Say it's me vs. you. If I punch you, you'd have no issues blocking me because we're comparable in overall body speed and reflexes.
> 
> If I instantly appear behind you while throwing that same punch, you'd need a moment to realise that I left your vision before you could even _start_ responding to the punch. At that point I'm going to have enough time to hit you.


How the fuck is this not what i've been saying the whole dam time. I said the confusion from Minato vanishing creates an opening on the enemy which prevents them reacting in time.

However if the enemy is not confused ether due to sensing/seeing/etc... where Minato appears after using Hiraishin, than he can react, assuming he's pretty speedy himself. 

Literally that's the fuck what i've been saying the whole TIME!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> However if the enemy knows where the user teleported too and they are reasonable fast they will be able to react to the successive attack.



..but there's this:



Obito knew where Minato teleported to (because Minato landed right in front of him), but _couldn't_ phase through the successive attack (contract seal).


----------



## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> But no it's not milimeters and the speed of his attack after FTG is not the speed of Kirin, if it was no one, not even Madara/Obito and especially not B would be reacting to it, but they consistently have.



Ok, we are getting somewhere.  I used millimeters to prove/exaggerate my point, but as you say, it's probably more realistically something like a few centimeters.  I agree with you on that.  

My point was that he doesn't have to complete the full range of motion required for a "normal" attack since he can control his positioning and orientation as he appears.   THAT was the debate you two were having, IMO.  And I think you were wrong to say that he has to still spend the time to land the full attack, given that he has precise control over the placement of his post-teleportation body.  

If I understand correctly, Rocky is NOT saying that his physical attacks are instantaneous, just that he can teleport himself in such a way as his attack will land NEARLY instantaneously, far faster than having to swing your arm from straight up to all the way down.

Have I mischaracterized your opinion?  And do you see how Rocky and my opinion makes sense?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Yes I do, to an extent. Minato can teleport and swing at the same time. It isn't as if he's going to miss by swinging early right? Always remember that Hiraishin takes 0.00 seconds to cross any distance.

So it isn't teleport _then_ swing, It's teleport _and_ swing, _together_. That's why the Databook grouped them together in that sentence. It's also why people who know _when_ Hiraishin is coming (not _where_ Minato is going) are capable of reacting to it as long as they can react to Minato himself.

If they don't know _when_ it's coming, then that moment they need to react to Minato _not being where he just was_ slows them down enough to the point that Minato can hit them before they can respond with anything, unless of course they are just _that _much faster than Minato in the first place (like Jubi Madara).

That is my point. I'm not claiming that Minato is instantaneous himself, but I'm not about to get a board with Minato being faster than v2 A because his opponents can't find him before hits them. Frontal Hiraishin would be all but useless then.


----------



## Sans (Jun 22, 2015)

how is this so complicated


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## Sans (Jun 22, 2015)

From PoW who can't access NF at the moment.

This is a very sad chapter in both our lives.



NarutoX28 said:


> And Minato fell flat on his face afterwards.





LostSelf said:


> It doesn't. When Obito was warping Minato and the latter teleported, he still crashed due to the pull of Kamui.



Momentum and speed transfer through hiraishin, as pointed out by everyone saying Minato dies.

Which means Minato's swing speed transfers.  

Minato can shunshin and grab a baby out of the air faster than Obitobito can swing his arm.  

He also pulled a baby out of a bundle full of already burning exploding tags and then hiraishined to a shed and ditched the tags and shunshined away faster than the explosion that started in his hands while protecting a newborn baby.


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes I do, to an extent. Minato can teleport and swing at the same time. It isn't as if he's going to miss by swinging early right? Always remember that Hiraishin takes 0.00 seconds to cross any distance.
> 
> So it isn't teleport _then_ swing, It's teleport _and_ swing, _together_. That's why the Databook grouped them together in that sentence. It's also why people who know _when_ Hiraishin is coming (not _where_ Minato is going) are capable of reacting to it as long as they can react to Minato himself.
> 
> ...



Do you think the position of his body changes WHILE teleporting?  Or do you think that the relative positioning of his body is in is exactly the same pre- and post- teleport?

Like...Nightcrawler in the X-men I think actually jumps in and out of a different dimension, so he can go from leaping to punching WHILE teleporting, but my understanding of Minato's hiraishin is that everything is the same (mass, speed, positioning of limbs/cells within the body), but the location and orientation of his body has changed


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> He can't complete the arm motion at the same time as Hiraishin unless his movements are instantaneous. Ether that or Hiraishin is not instant. Pick your poison de nail crocodile.



 And Rocky said my point was meaningless.  

 Looks like it wasn't after all.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 22, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato's fighting style is based on a S/T jutsu, and so does Obito's.
> Anyway


You know that doesn't answer my question 



> why are we arguing this in this thread anyway?


I guess it has to do with whether Nagato can react to Ni no Dan or not. Not that that's why _I'm_ still arguing at this point 



Rocky said:


> Pretty much every single instance Minato uses Hiraishin.
> 
> Minato starts like _this_, and ends up at the tree like so. He doesn't arrive at the tree looking like he did when he left.


If what you are saying were correct then we would expect to see Minato already in a hunched position coming out of his jump, as that is what it would look like if it were concurrent with the jump; instead, we see draw lines indicating that after he came out of the jump he still needed to react with his body to go into the hunched position. I think the mistake here is to assume that Minato "popped" out like that, because it wouldn't make sense given the draw lines. He most likely popped out closer to his erect position but was already in the motion of hunching down. This is consistent with what I'm saying in that once Minato has physically appeared out of his jump, he is still required to put forth a physical motion. 



> He has has arms down when A charges in the second time, but has his kunai raised when he gets to B.


Here we don't see Minato's action going into his jump; it would be safe to assume that before hand he had already started the motion of gathering the kunai and lunging it downward, no? Otherwise it suggests that Minato can go into his jump and pop out with a completely different motion.

As another example, when Obito starts to suck up Minato and he jumps away he appears out of his kunai in a heap, which only makes sense if we assume that he comes out of his jump similar as to how he went in. Otherwise, why would he choose to land this way if he could choose his position coming out?



> That's redundant. It goes without saying that Minato went too fast for Obito to avoid the attack. It happened on panel. That why the 4th Hokage won the battle of _speed._
> 
> I really don't know what you're trying to say. Yes, the reason Obito was hit was because Minato teleported to that marker. Minato actually had to hit him though.


It's not redundant, because the two things don't happen at the same time and Obito only attributes his surprise to one of the two. He's not surprised he was hit because he never intended to turn intangible in response to Minato's jump in the first place.



thechickensage said:


> If I understand correctly, Rocky is NOT saying that his physical attacks are instantaneous, just that he can teleport himself in such a way as his attack will land NEARLY instantaneously, far faster than having to swing your arm from straight up to all the way down.





Rocky said:


> If they don't know _when_ it's coming, then that moment they need to react to Minato _not being where he just was_ slows them down enough to the point that Minato can hit them before they can respond with anything, unless of course they are just _that _much faster than Minato in the first place (like Jubi Madara).


Here's the problem with this and the reality that you need to address, if Minato can sync his attack with his jump to the point where it's nearly instantaneous then nobody would be able to react to it. Saying that beings like Juubimads are the exception _immediately _invalidates what you're attempting to establish because he himself cannot react near instantaneously. Not. Even. Close. 

So obviously something is going on here that disallows Minato from performing his Hiraishin Ni no Dan in the manner you're suggesting. The most likely explanation is the one Turrin provided in stating that Minato has a certain margin of error to work with in that he can't allow himself to teleport so he's already into his target so needs to jump with his motion at a point that allows him to make contact without erring into this danger zone. Suffice to say mere centimeters probably isn't cutting it, which is why we see people like Bee who is no God-tier speedster in his own right be able to react to Minato's attack coming off of the jump. And again with Juubito who once he decided to guard his rear was never again threaten by any "nearly instantaneous" attacks coming off a jump, despite working against _two _FTG users and top-tiers likes KCM/BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.

So basically, what you're suggesting might work in theory but obviously as the manga has shown us not in practicality.


----------



## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

aaaanyways, I think Minato could tag Nagato after losing a few clones, and has a chance at beating Minato.  But this thread has changed my mind to more like 80 wins 20 losses for Nagato...the opposite of what i thought at the beginning.  Give Minato KCM/BM and it falls into Minato's favor though


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Here's the problem with this and the reality that you need to address, if Minato can sync his attack with his jump to the point where it's nearly instantaneous then nobody would be able to react to it. Saying that beings like Juubimads are the exception _immediately _invalidates what you're attempting to establish because he himself cannot react near instantaneously. Not. Even. Close.



Not even DC's Flash can react "instantaneously." I think you just misunderstood what I was trying to say.

With Hiraishin, the moment that Minato disappears is simultaneous with the moment he is swinging Rasengan down at you. *Not* the moment it is _hitting_ you, the moment he is swinging it down at you.

If Minato hadn't used Hiraishin, Obito would have had no issues phasing through Rasengan. That doesn't mean that Obito is still capable of doing so if he has to first take in the fact that Minato isn't where he just was.

Basically, if Minato swings Rasengan at Obito, "oh shit, better go intangible" is the combat reflex. If Hiraishin (no matter which side Minato warps to) precedes the Rasengan (or any strike really), then the first thought that goes through Obito's head is "he's not there anymore," which delays the combat reflex (Kamui), ending in Obito getting hit.



StickaStick said:


> Suffice to say mere centimeters probably isn't cutting it, which is why we see people like Bee who is no God-tier speedster in his own right be able to react to Minato's attack coming off of the jump.



As I've said countless times, B was able to react to Minato coming off of the jump _because he knew when that jump would be._ If you know that, then you won't have difficulty reacting to Minato unless you're just outright incapable of handling his physical speed...which isn't the case with anyone Minato's fought and was never the focus of my point.


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## thechickensage (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> As I've said countless times, B was able to react to Minato coming off of the jump _because he knew when that jump would be._ If you know that, then you won't have difficulty reacting to Minato unless you're just outright incapable of handling his physical speed...which isn't the case with anyone Minato's fought and was never the focus of my point.



and it's the same with Nagato and his ST.  It's easy to predict when it occurs because it will be used defensively when you get close enough.  Vs. someone like Minato, the window for Nagato to use ST is very small, so clones in quick succession (the first to attack and get struck by ST, the next to do the damage) can easily get past ST.  Then Minato would have to deal with the other paths's abilities by being tricky with multiple clones or by being unpredictable in his angle of attack.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Turrin already refuted this.
> 
> Juubito presented no sign of shock meaning he anticipated the attack, but in that situation, Juubito clearly indicates that he didn't expect himself to have such a major weak-spot. After protecting it, he managed to react to both BM Minato and BSM Naruto easily.
> 
> ...



 i dont need to prove minato strike speed is faster than Sm naruto's thats just dumb. one of them is famous for being super fast the other isnt. minato usign rasengan on obito before he could process minato just vanished before him is far faster than anything Sm naruto has done btw

juubito anticipated hirashin after it had been used 3 times already against him. you dont have to be a genius to predict it the 4th time. in fact its not even prediction anymore. its no shit sherlock by the 4th time

my point here is even if Sm naruto is so much faster than minato. juubito is so much faster than all the above and by a nasty margin yet Sm naruto and tobirama could hit him because he was tagged. 

again juubito got screwed by hirashin 3 times before he was able to counter it once. 

where was minato sign of shock when juudara blitz\d him?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont need to prove minato strike speed is faster than Sm naruto's thats just dumb. one of them is famous for being super fast the other isnt. minato usign rasengan on obito before he could process minato just vanished before him is far faster than anything Sm naruto has done btw



 Actually you do. One of them is a proficient Taijutsu user and one of the most skilled Sage Users in the manga (comparable to Hashirama according to Tobirama) while one of  them only has reflexes comparable to Base Raikage and is hyped only for his movement speed, not reflexes. Hell, his strike speed was shown to be comparable to Young Obito's.



> juubito anticipated hirashin after it had been used 3 times already against him. you dont have to be a genius to predict it the 4th time. in fact its not even prediction anymore. its no shit sherlock by the 4th time



 Too bad only Tobirama could manage feats agianst Juubito and that was when he was distracted and occupied by Naruto, Sasuke, and Minato. Minato still had his arm chopped off and was tagged before being able to jump and he couldn't even perceive the Gudodoama.

 Juubito has one of the highest forms of Sensing in the manga. The only times he was ever tagged and caught by Hiraishin was when he was distracted, plain and simple.



> my point here is even if Sm naruto is so much faster than minato. juubito is so much faster than all the above and by a nasty margin yet Sm naruto and tobirama could hit him because he was tagged.



 Yet Juubito let them considering he didn't believe that a Juubi Jin would have such a major weak spot.



> again juubito got screwed by hirashin 3 times before he was able to counter it once.
> 
> where was minato sign of shock when juudara blitz\d him?



 Yeah, no. He was distracted and occupied by multiple elite ninja plain and simple. 

 And Minato was blitzed since he was treated like trash and was even knocked back before Minato formed a mental reaction to jump with Hiraishin and he had arguably higher reflexes in comparison to KCM Minato based on what's been implied during SM Naruto's clash with the 3rd Raikage and we know Minato admits that it takes far too long to knead the chakra in order to activate Sage Mode.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

Sorry did u just foolishly imply tobirama is faster or has better reactions than minato ? Despite all evidence to the contrary ?

Yh minato got reactjons of base A that's why he can casually react to V2 and bully him to the point A thought minato was the stuff of legend 

Yh minato reacted to juudara guodama odd how u forgot that 

I like ur claim though . Minato can hit obito 3 times point blank after  Hirashin but Yh let's call minato strike speed unimpressive shall we 

You know the guy who solely relies on speed to fight 

You have yet to show any reason why Sm naruto would have quicker strike speed . Your claim on Tobirama made me chuckle though . The same guy who simply admitted to being minato inferior in all things hirashin and speed 

When has anyone reacted to goudama? You know the thing which requires speed of kamui be doubled . Minato could use hirashin twice to get to it and to take it away 

Bar juudara has someone countered minato after hirashin? Cuz onito would tell u he got trolled 3 times 

Why would Nagato have better reactions than obito ?


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> ..but there's this:
> 
> 
> 
> Obito knew where Minato teleported to (because Minato landed right in front of him), but _couldn't_ phase through the successive attack (contract seal).



Obito there was both injured from the previous Rasengan and caught off guard because he wasn't aware that Minato marked him. The combination of those two things was likely enough to allow Minato the opening to land a quick successive hit, after his initial Hiraishin Combo. I do not think it's fair to compare that set of circumstances to someone who hasn't just eaten a Rasengan and is aware of where Minato's markings are.



thechickensage said:


> Ok, we are getting somewhere.  I used millimeters to prove/exaggerate my point, but as you say, it's probably more realistically something like a few centimeters.  I agree with you on that.


Let's call it Inches



> My point was that he doesn't have to complete the full range of motion required for a "normal" attack since he can control his positioning and orientation as he appears. THAT was the debate you two were having, IMO. And I think you were wrong to say that he has to still spend the time to land the full attack, given that he has precise control over the placement of his post-teleportation body.
> 
> If I understand correctly, Rocky is NOT saying that his physical attacks are instantaneous, just that he can teleport himself in such a way as his attack will land NEARLY instantaneously, far faster than having to swing your arm from straight up to all the way down.


Here's the problem. Ether Minato would need to complete a full lunge, slash, etc.. or he'd have to rely on gravity, if he were to say appear a few inches above the enemy. Now the gravity example best fits what your talking about, however while it would be nearly instantaneous by our world standards it's not be Naruto world standards. The characters in Naruto are all superhuman and when we get to the class of enemy whose usually put up against Minato, they are highly superhuman in terms of reflexes and movement-speed as well as Jutsu speed. So again most characters that Minato is matched up with in the NBD are going to be able to react like B did to Minato's successive attack after Hiraishin.



> Have I mischaracterized your opinion? And do you see how Rocky and my opinion makes sense?


No, but you mis characterized Rocky's. Rocky thinks Hiraishin + Successive attack is so fast that characters like Obito can't even realize that Minato has vanished before they get hit. This is clearly demonstrated to be false, by the manga cannon in the very same scene that he cites as evidence. 

There is a big difference between that, and what Rocky is now saying, which is that Obito was confused by the vanishing and by the time Obito figured out where Minato was he was already hit.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

just a quick question if juubito and obito didnt know they were marked and consequently couldnt do anythign about it despite having a technique just as easy to execute as ST. i.e kamui 

then why would anyone assume a marked nagato doesnt loose his head?

bee reacts therefore everyone can  yet we have juubito failing to react but thats somehow ignored. 

killer bee keeping his calm and anticipating has more to do with his killer instinct. in case people forgot pretty sure minato was the one who gave him the name killer bee 

there is more evidence through juubito and obito to say nagato doesnt react than there is to claim he would. A despite claiming he would be able to anticipate where minato jumps to didnt have the slightest idea where minato went


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry did u just foolishly imply tobirama is faster or has better reactions than minato ? Despite all evidence to the contrary ?



 Tobirama is faster? Please tell me when I said that? I've admitted before that Minato is faster in terms of movement speed in comparison to Tobirama yet all that indicates is his Shunshin speed is faster, not that his physical speed or actual reaction speed is faster than Tobirama's. On the contrary, Tobirama's reflexes are higher considering Tobirama's clone managed to tag Juubito with a Gudodama before he could tag Tobirama prior to his Hiraishin while KCM Minato actually got his arm chopped off and couldn't even perceive Juubito tagging him. Evidence points towards Tobirama being more reflexive. 



> Yh minato got reactjons of base A that's why he can casually react to V2 and bully him to the point A thought minato was the stuff of legend



 Too bad Minato only reacts with a Space-time ninjutsu which requires only a simple mental reflex. He can perceive his speed, but his actual reaction speed pales in comparison to Ei's. We've seen both Tobirama and Ei attack effectively with Shunshin yet Minato has never done such a thing when his opponent is on-guard. 



> Yh minato reacted to juudara guodama odd how u forgot that



 Same as everybody else. Not sure what you're trying to prove here.



> I like ur claim though . Minato can hit obito 3 times point blank after  Hirashin but Yh let's call minato strike speed unimpressive shall we



 Please post those instances and then I"ll refute them. 



> You know the guy who solely relies on speed to fight



 Actually he doesn't. He relies on the element of surprise along with his fairly quick strike speed to subdue his opponent. Young Obito effortlessly countered his Hiraishin until Minato used a more advanced version of FTG to tip him off. Even Young Bee could react to Minato's Hiraishin because the element of surprise was lost.



> You have yet to show any reason why Sm naruto would have quicker strike speed . Your claim on Tobirama made me chuckle though . The same guy who simply admitted to being minato inferior in all things hirashin and speed



 Really? Tobirama outright compared Naruto's Sage Mode to Hashirama's. That in no way implies SM Naruto is on par with SM Hashirama (obviously), but it does imply that his Sage Mode increases his stats substantially.

 You have yet to prove why Base Minato's strike speed would be superior to one of the most skilled Sage Users in the manga, so I think I rest my case. After all, didn't you say that SM Naruto managed to strike fast enough to tag Juubito, the same guy who trashed KCM Minato? SM Naruto >> KCM Minato >> Base Minato confirmed. 



 That's only based on Shunshin speed and Minato's versatility with FTG. Tobirama still has more skill, experience, higher level of sensing, and reflexes compared to Minato. His FTG attempts gets hard-countered as long as Tobirama can perceive where he warps.



> When has anyone reacted to goudama? You know the thing which requires speed of kamui be doubled . Minato could use hirashin twice to get to it and to take it away



 So Minato has comparable reaction feats compared to the speed of Kamui caused by 2 MS when 1 MS Obito could react to Juubidara's strike speed at close range while SM Minato was effortlessly man-handled by Juubidara and couldn't even jump before Juubidara trashed him with multiple hits? C'mon man, don't be ridiculous.



> Bar juudara has someone countered minato after hirashin? Cuz onito would tell u he got trolled 3 times
> 
> Why would Nagato have better reactions than obito ?



 Yes. Juubito did, Young Bee did, and Young Ei could perceive and was implied to be able to counter it. He unfortunately couldn't react the first time as he was caught in his Max Shunshin speed, but he still perceived it.  Hell, Young Obito did and processed that he warped as Minato crashed towards the ground. Please list those instances that Obito got trolled 3 times and I will easily refute them.

 Why would Nagato have better reactions than Obito? Well, why wouldn't he? He already had Kage Level reflexes with his inferior Paths as he effortlessly reacted to FRS's Expansion Speed, Had Deva Path effortlessly dodge FRS at the last minute despite being feinted, and has Shared Vision that easily covers his blindspots and did so effectively with only 2 Rinnegan users which allowed Pain to outclass SM Jiraiya in Taijutsu. Nagato is far superior compared to Deva Path, could perceive Itachi's Amaterasu before KCM Naruto could, perceived Itachi's flicker speed that almost blitzed Base Bee, and perceived V2 Bee's Speed. Give Nagato Shared Vision from multiple different Summons and that effectively counters any surprise attempts of FTG that Minato attempts to do.

 Unlike Obito, Nagato can cover his blindspot and has advanced sensing superior to Mu and KCM Naruto. Only reason Obito was subdued was based on Minato relying on the element of surprise which Minato cannot do here for reasons already stated.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 22, 2015)

> Do you think the position of his body changes WHILE teleporting?



It can.

Minato wasn't break dancing before.  

Note that when he appears, he is touching both fodder nin and Kakashi.  Next warp he appears in a crouch.  No more dancing.

You could argue hiraishin changed, but he did the standing to crouch later.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Obito there was both injured from the previous Rasengan and caught off guard because he wasn't aware that Minato marked him.



I doubt the injury would have prevented him from phasing, and what does him being "caught off guard" have to do anything? Isn't that what I've been saying? Obito was caught off guard because he didn't know Minato was about to jump, just like he didn't know Minato was about to jump when he thought he won the fight.

So it goes back to shinobi not being capable of responding to the jump unless they know _when_ it's coming. It doesn't matter if Minato jumps within their LOS or flanks them. Sensing or linked vision doesn't really do anything because Nagato still needs that moment to realize Minato's not where he was just looking, which is the window that Minato strikes in.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It can.
> 
> Minato wasn't break dancing before.
> 
> ...



The first scan you posted was body flicker, not FTG


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I doubt the injury would have prevented him from phasing, and what does him being "caught off guard" have to do anything? Isn't that what I've been saying? Obito was caught off guard because he didn't know Minato was about to jump, just like he didn't know Minato was about to jump when he thought he won the fight.
> 
> So it goes back to shinobi not being capable of responding to the jump unless they know _when_ it's coming. It doesn't matter if Minato jumps within their LOS or flanks them. Sensing or linked vision doesn't really do anything because Nagato still needs that moment to realize Minato's not where he was just looking, which is the window that Minato strikes in.



Obito wasn't surprised because he didn't know when Minato'd jump, he was surprised because he had no idea that Minato was capable of the jump. Those are different things.

First time around, he didn't know he could teleport to his Kunai and the second time around, he didn't know he was marked.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The first scan you posted was body flicker, not FTG



It was FTG.  He warped to the kunai he gave Kakashi.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito wasn't surprised because he didn't know when Minato'd jump, he was surprised because he had no idea that Minato was capable of the jump. Those are different things.



And?

Minato appearing in front of you instantly takes a moment to process, regardless of whether or not you know he can do it.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> First time around, he didn't know he could teleport to his Kunai.



He knew Minato could jump to kunai. He saw Minato do it _before_ the final exchange. 

He just didn't expect Minato to go _anywhere_, which is why he said "I win."


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It was FTG.  He warped to the kunai he gave Kakashi.



No it wasnt. There would have been emphasis on the kunai if he warped (or minato would have mentioned it to kakashi the he warped to the kunai), the rock ninja also wouldnt have referred to minatos save as "movement". Nor does kishi used the shunshin symbol for hiraishin. Nor would rin have made a big deal about miantos ftg, if she had already just seen it.


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## Turrin (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I doubt the injury would have prevented him from phasing.


Rocky please, the idea that having his spine hit by a Rasengan and arm torn off, doesn't at all throw him Obito off his game is utterly ridiculous.



> , and what does him being "caught off guard" have to do anything? Isn't that what I've been saying? Obito was caught off guard because he didn't know Minato was about to jump, just like he didn't know Minato was about to jump when he thought he won the fight.


Because it has to do with expectation. If you know how FTG works, and don't see a mark near you, your not expecting Minato to be able to use Hiraishin, than when he does your going to be more off your guard, than if you see a mark near you or expect their might be one. This compounded withObito being especially off his game because he just took a fucking Rasengan to the back.



> So it goes back to shinobi not being capable of responding to the jump unless they know _when_ it's coming. It doesn't matter if Minato jumps within their LOS or flanks them. Sensing or linked vision doesn't really do anything because Nagato still needs that moment to realize Minato's not where he was just looking, which is the window that Minato strikes in


Sure and if they've just had their spine caved in and arm torn off by an attack, than we can talk. Until then your comparison is highly bias.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

>spine caved in

No, his spine was not caved in, and losing an arm _isn't_ a game breaking injury for Obito.

Obito may have been messed up a bit physically, but that doesn't tend to noticably impair the activation speed of seal-less jutsu. The best example is Itachi, who was heavily injured and basically dead, reacting to one of the fastest jutsu in the manga with Susano'o.



			
				Turrin said:
			
		

> If you know how FTG works, and don't see a mark near you, your not expecting Minato to be able to use Hiraishin, than when he does your going to be more off your guard, than if you see a mark near you or expect their might be one.



Like I said to Grimmjow, and? Obito was only surprised at this after Minato had made contact with him. Even if Obito knew Minato had him marked, he still needs a moment to realize that Minato's not where he was just standing.


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## Eliyua23 (Jun 22, 2015)

Feats can be interpreted different ways Minato lacks offensive might while Nagato lacks mobility , Minato watched Nagato's power first hand and didn't really believe Naruto was out of his league or was incapable of defeating him in a way he looked past him , How ever you slice it the way both men have been characterized it's a close fight , I lean more towards Nagato because he has Rikudo prowess but to say Minato is out of his league is something I just don't agree with


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Tobirama is faster? Please tell me when I said that? I've admitted before that Minato is faster in terms of movement speed in comparison to Tobirama yet all that indicates is his Shunshin speed is faster, not that his physical speed or actual reaction speed is faster than Tobirama's. On the contrary, Tobirama's reflexes are higher considering Tobirama's clone managed to tag Juubito with a Gudodama before he could tag Tobirama prior to his Hiraishin while KCM Minato actually got his arm chopped off and couldn't even perceive Juubito tagging him. Evidence points towards Tobirama being more reflexive.



sorry I like to accuse you of things. gets you going. just look at your post. 

if minato is faster in movement speed how can he be slower in physical speed? please answer me? or reaction speed? how does he get from point A to point B physically first before tobirama if he doesn't have better reactions and physical speed?

love how you go on about minato getting his hand chopped off. while ignoring minato using hirashin twice against juudara goudama before it could hit gai. you know like I said the thing that required kamui speed be doubled. 




> Too bad Minato only reacts with a Space-time ninjutsu which requires only a simple mental reflex. He can perceive his speed, but his actual reaction speed pales in comparison to Ei's. We've seen both Tobirama and Ei attack effectively with Shunshin yet Minato has never done such a thing when his opponent is on-guard.



yh cuz he didn't flick that kunai. guess it levitated on all its on. well ur theory is BS. you imply minato only way to defeat A would have been on counter attack. A wouldn't have classified minato as legendary if that was the only way for minato to outpace A. 

sorry  when has tobirama attacked with shunshin? yh A uses shunshin because he doesn't have any better. why would a person with hirashin waste time with a lowly jutsu like shunshin?



> Same as everybody else. Not sure what you're trying to prove here.
> 
> 
> 
> Please post those instances and then I"ll refute them.



not sure you can. though I love ur selective memory. juubito got trolled 3 times by hirashin that's fact



> Actually he doesn't. He relies on the element of surprise along with his fairly quick strike speed to subdue his opponent. Young Obito effortlessly countered his Hiraishin until Minato used a more advanced version of FTG to tip him off. Even Young Bee could react to Minato's Hiraishin because the element of surprise was lost.




what surprises the person? is it not speed? or u think if he appeared slowly behind a person the person wont be able to react? clones can do that just fine. no need for hirashin 

looool  obito countered hirashin? u mean the guy who got trolled by it twice back to back. 

omg..how did he troll it. he never did anything but get beat by It

more advanced hirashin is jumping to a moving kunai. u make it sound more complicated than it is.  markig kunai serves that purpose as well. its an object you can throw. lol 


young obito and juubito still got hit because of hirashin. 



> Really? Tobirama outright compared Naruto's Sage Mode to Hashirama's. That in no way implies SM Naruto is on par with SM Hashirama (obviously), but it does imply that his Sage Mode increases his stats substantially


.

and when has said substantial increase been compared to minato? its only his KCM which was compared to which yamato said he isn't there yet. try harder buddy 



> You have yet to prove why Base Minato's strike speed would be superior to one of the most skilled Sage Users in the manga, so I think I rest my case. After all, didn't you say that SM Naruto managed to strike fast enough to tag Juubito, the same guy who trashed KCM Minato? SM Naruto >> KCM Minato >> Base Minato confirmed.



because said minato who got the reactions and implied "Speed" to be superior than KCM Naruto who himself said he is much stronger and was also shown to be faster. clearly puts SM Naruto in the dust



>







> That's only based on Shunshin speed and Minato's versatility with FTG. Tobirama still has more skill, experience, higher level of sensing, and reflexes compared to Minato. His FTG attempts gets hard-countered as long as Tobirama can perceive where he warps.



how does he have more skill? when he said he cant even use FTG on the same scale as minato nor can he use ST barrier. lol the troll is real here

prove he got higher level sensing. jesus u make shit up. looool I guess u forgot minato can counter tobirama with a lot more ease 




> So Minato has comparable reaction feats compared to the speed of Kamui caused by 2 MS when 1 MS Obito could react to Juubidara's strike speed at close range while SM Minato was effortlessly man-handled by Juubidara and couldn't even jump before Juubidara trashed him with multiple hits? C'mon man, don't be ridiculous.



well minato has already on 2 occasions shown he got quicker reactions than kamui. first against obito which he trolled it casually 

then showed he can use hirashin twice on goudama which required kamui speed be doubled 

well those are the feats. its just simple madara a guy with exp on hirashin and the juubi jin trolled minato the second he appeared simple as that



> Yes. Juubito did, Young Bee did, and Young Ei could perceive and was implied to be able to counter it. He unfortunately couldn't react the first time as he was caught in his Max Shunshin speed, but he still perceived it.  Hell, Young Obito did and processed that he warped as Minato crashed towards the ground. Please list those instances that Obito got trolled 3 times and I will easily refute them.




and the second time A had no idea where minato went. and he never did in any fight or minato would not be considered the fastest and the stuff of legend according to A. 

*first time juuubito I said not obito got trolled*

1) tobirama clone
2) Sm Naruto 
3) KCM minato using hirashin to allow Naruto and sasuke to escape a point blank attack

now obito !! being trolled by hirashin 

1) rasengan to the back 
2) contract seal moment 
3) kunai slash which split his neck open before he turned into juubi jin. despite sensors around like KCM naruto, even KCM Naruto was surprised minato got struck so quick



> Why would Nagato have better reactions than Obito? Well, why wouldn't he? He already had Kage Level reflexes with his inferior Paths as he effortlessly reacted to FRS's Expansion Speed, Had Deva Path effortlessly dodge FRS at the last minute despite being feinted, and has Shared Vision that easily covers his blindspots and did so effectively with only 2 Rinnegan users which allowed Pain to outclass SM Jiraiya in Taijutsu. Nagato is far superior compared to Deva Path, could perceive Itachi's Amaterasu before KCM Naruto could, perceived Itachi's flicker speed that almost blitzed Base Bee, and perceived V2 Bee's Speed. Give Nagato Shared Vision from multiple different Summons and that effectively counters any surprise attempts of FTG that Minato attempts to do.



so In short u got nothing to assume. nagato got better reactions outside silly claims. loooool FRS....u bring up FRS in a minato discussion ooh buddy  that's just sad mehn 
FRS is shit tier speed compared to minato. its never even been hyped for its speed. not once




> Unlike Obito, Nagato can cover his blindspot and has advanced sensing superior to Mu and KCM Naruto. Only reason Obito was subdued was based on Minato relying on the element of surprise which Minato cannot do here for reasons already stated.




juubito was also a better sensor than obito and nagato. didn't stop SM Naruto from hitting him with rasengan though did it?

and that was a straight up blitz. he was looking right at them then Naruto smack him from the back


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

One thing though despite obito extensive knowledge on hirashin he was still hit twice by it despite having a sealess instant activation jutsu. 

juubito who is also obito even had more knowledge on hirashin yet it still landed in surprise attacks against him 

nagato got no knowledge here. why should he see a kunai next to him and assume he is in danger? can someone tell me this?

even people with knowledge with better reaction feats got hit. a mark gets close to nagato and nagato gets a rasengan to the face.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> And?
> 
> Minato appearing in front of you instantly takes a moment to process, regardless of whether or not you know he can do it.



Sure, but you can react to something that you can see. And while  Hirashin is instantaneous, Minato's body isn't. Minato himself has to precieve and act according to his surroundings when he teleports.



> He knew Minato could jump to kunai. He saw Minato do it _before_ the final exchange.
> 
> He just didn't expect Minato to go _anywhere_, which is why he said "I win."



I think he didn't know he could teleport to a moving Kunai or some other shit. That was a braindead moment from Obito eitherway. The thing is though, he was completey caught off guard, not only because Minato was outside his vision, but because for some reason he didn't think Minato could teleport to that Kunai.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

obito not knowing minato could port to a moving kunai simply goes to show the mask man being obito was a retcon 

why would obito who has seen minato use hirashin before somehow forget that a marked kuani can be teleported to 

minato was his teacher yet we are to believe obito somehow thought the kunai is behind me he cant teleport to it. 

he just threw a kuani so he can run at me with a rasengan? brain dead moment indeed

doesn't change the fact that right after he got hit again because of hirashin 

this Is someone with knowledge poor nagato got none


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> No it wasnt. There would have been emphasis on the kunai if he warped (or minato would have mentioned it to kakashi the he warped to the kunai), the rock ninja also wouldnt have referred to minatos save as "movement". Nor does kishi used the shunshin symbol for hiraishin. Nor would rin have made a big deal about miantos ftg, if she had already just seen it.



I don't think Minato would have let Kakashi run ahead if the plan wasn't to FTG to him to save him should he need it.  He cares too much about his team.  I also don't think you can shunshin between two people and reverse direction like that.

Not that it matters, because I can forfeit that panel and point to the two other times he changed position from FTG.


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## Icegaze (Jun 22, 2015)

of course he can change position from FTG
how else does he actually attack the person


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> No it wasnt. There would have been emphasis on the kunai if he warped (or minato would have mentioned it to kakashi the he warped to the kunai), the rock ninja also wouldnt have referred to minatos save as "movement". Nor does kishi used the shunshin symbol for hiraishin. Nor would rin have made a big deal about miantos ftg, if she had already just seen it.



 Unfortunately, the fact that KCM Naruto's Shunshin speed has been compared to the "Yellow Flash" seems to imply that it is referred to as "movement". 

 But personally, I have no problem seeing it as Shunshin or FTG in that scenario.


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## StickaStick (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Not even DC's Flash can react "instantaneously." I think you just misunderstood what I was trying to say.


Near instantaneously. I don't think you were trying to say literally instantaneously because than FTG itself would basically be an attack.



> With Hiraishin, the moment that Minato disappears is simultaneous with the moment he is swinging Rasengan down at you. *Not* the moment it is _hitting_ you, the moment he is swinging it down at you.


I don't believe I ever disagreed with this interpretation; in fact that's what I was getting at myself when I said that even coming off of the jump an arm motion, in this case, would still be required.

Where I differ with you and _thechickensage_ in your assessment is that Minato can sync his jump and attack to the point where that the Rasengan is literally right at Obito's back, because that would require an on-the-spot analysis and follow through with precision that I don't believe any ninja is really capable of. 



> If Minato hadn't used Hiraishin, Obito would have had no issues phasing through Rasengan. That doesn't mean that Obito is still capable of doing so if he has to first take in the fact that Minato isn't where he just was.
> 
> Basically, if Minato swings Rasengan at Obito, "oh shit, better go intangible" is the combat reflex. If Hiraishin (no matter which side Minato warps to) precedes the Rasengan (or any strike really), then the first thought that goes through Obito's head is "he's not there anymore," which delays the combat reflex (Kamui), ending in Obito getting hit.


Here's the thing: the time elapsed between Obito realizing Minato's not there anymore and deciding, if he had, to use Kamui would be so minuscule in comparison to the time it would take Minato to complete his arm motion after the jump that I simply can't buy this line of thinking that Obito had no time to react. 



> As I've said countless times, B was able to react to Minato coming off of the jump _because he knew when that jump would be._ If you know that, then you won't have difficulty reacting to Minato unless you're just outright incapable of handling his physical speed...which isn't the case with anyone Minato's fought and was never the focus of my point.


Consider what's happening here: When Minato teleported away from Ei to the tree branch it's reasonable to assume that he immediately jumped back on top of Ei again. This makes sense because we see Ei still moving forward at the point Minato jumps on him. So basically, between the time it takes for B to figure out Minato is going to jump on Ei he's able to send his tentacle the distance and intercept Minato's in his attacking motion all in one extremely brief period. Thus it doesn't matter if B guessed correctly where Minato was going to go--he still had to react and execute in an insanely short amount of time and was able to do so. If he can do that, there's literally no reason others, such as Nagato, can't do the same.

Consider that that doesn't always mean they will be able to react, because the margin of error in any contest of speed at this level is so small, but more likely not they will be able to a consistent amount of times. Which is why I think this really boils down to giving these high-level ninja some credit and not assuming that Minato is going to be able to simply throw a single kunai at that them and call GG. More likely it would take multiple kunais in different blindsports possibly with some needed deception (e.g., clone feints) thrown in. You know, the kind of stuff basically every ninja who doesn't possess ridiculous haxx needs in order to win at this level. 

Although the problem here as it pertains to this matchup is that getting kunai spread out thoroughly and strategically would be very difficult considering Nagato can just send them all flying away to a different area.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato himself has to precieve and act according to his surroundings when he teleports.



Why would Minato need time to respond to his own warp?

Minato would "begin" to attack before he warps so that when he gets there there's no wasted time.


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## Trojan (Jun 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It can.
> 
> Minato wasn't break dancing before.
> 
> ...



The second one was not FTG. I wanted to clear that up earlier, but I preferred things to stop at where they were. Look at this scan which is before Minato gets Kakashi to the others.

unfortunately I can't put some marks to identify the places I mean, but I'll try. 

Look at the 2 sixes "Zoom" the one on the right if for Minato, and the other one is for the fodder. 
the lines in those places indicates the movement for Shunshin, not FTG.  

If it's not clear to you in the manga, then perhaps the anime can help?
(If I can find one in Youtube that is )

Edit:
Link removed

At 10:30


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry I like to accuse you of things. gets you going. just look at your post.
> 
> if minato is faster in movement speed how can he be slower in physical speed? please answer me? or reaction speed? how does he get from point A to point B physically first before tobirama if he doesn't have better reactions and physical speed?



 Because Tobirama outright stated Minato's Shunshin was better than his, not his actual movement speed. I realized my wording there was terrible, but I didn't think you were this desperate as I would have thought you would've understood my point. Do you honestly think Minato's physical speed is that high when it's only comparable to Young Obito's?

 He got from point A to point B physically first because he used Shunshin whereas it's arguable if Tobirama did, but I have no doubt Minato would've outsped him even if Tobirama used Shunshin.



> love how you go on about minato getting his hand chopped off. while ignoring minato using hirashin twice against juudara goudama before it could hit gai. you know like I said the thing that required kamui speed be doubled.



 Again, everybody could do simple reactions against the Gudoudama. It's not like they're incredibly fast in the first place. Hell, the gang had no problem reacting to Juubito's Gudoudama yet they did when attempting to perceive his Shunshin or Physical speed (as it took a while for BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke to do so). Even then, it was a team effort and clearly not a representation of their reflexes, but only their perception of speed. As I stated before, it had more to do with it being slower than a Juubi Jin's actual speed.

 Here's an idea though. Maybe warping to another dimension is outright slower than phasing which is why it even required 2 Mangekyo to perform in the first place? 




> yh cuz he didn't flick that kunai. guess it levitated on all its on. well ur theory is BS. you imply minato only way to defeat A would have been on counter attack. A wouldn't have classified minato as legendary if that was the only way for minato to outpace A.



 Yes, he dropped the Kunai and performed a mental reflex. Is that even comparable to the distance Ei flicker to? No, no it's not. I'm implying that Minato's only method of beating Ei is to deceive him in where he warps to. If Ei perceives where Minato warps to, then he gets his face punched in, simple as that as it leaves Minato in a vulnerable position and he'd likely have to readjust himself to perceive Ei's flicker. It's still implied that Minato would've been left vulnerable, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove here.



> sorry  when has tobirama attacked with shunshin? yh A uses shunshin because he doesn't have any better. why would a person with hirashin waste time with a lowly jutsu like shunshin?



 Link removed

 Here. He marked an MS user when he least expected it which caused confusion and Tobirama utilized Shunshin to deal the final blow before Izuna could react. Him dashing and lunging straight through Izuna suggests it.

 Even then, my main point was to prove that Ei simply has higher reflexes.



> not sure you can. though I love ur selective memory. juubito got trolled 3 times by hirashin that's fact



 Show me scans of Minato trolling Juubito with Hiraishin because the only person that did was Tobirama. 




> what surprises the person? is it not speed? or u think if he appeared slowly behind a person the person wont be able to react? clones can do that just fine. no need for hirashin
> 
> looool  obito countered hirashin? u mean the guy who got trolled by it twice back to back.





 Do you even hear yourself? Obviously warping at the speed of light is a factor, but the person has to re-adjust himself and utilize his own reflexes for an attack. What happens if his opponent anticipates where he warps to? Well, he pretty much gets countered like Young Bee did against Minato.

 Yeah, Young Obito countered Hiraishin, hence why Minato had to use it twice to bail him out. Why do you think he used a more advanced version of FTG? To utilize the element of surprise because he knew Obito could easily perceive his own speed and the manga suggests it.



> omg..how did he troll it. he never did anything but get beat by It
> 
> more advanced hirashin is jumping to a moving kunai. u make it sound more complicated than it is.  markig kunai serves that purpose as well. its an object you can throw. lol



 Obito never expected Minato warp to the Kunai and Obito stated that. Maybe it's because Minato has always used it defensively and solely relied on a previously placed Kunai to warp to? Really, just think for a moment before you post. 




> young obito and juubito still got hit because of hirashin.



 Because Young Obito never anticipated that he'd warp to the Kunai thrown which supports my argument perfectly.

 All of the moments that Juubito got hit was thanks to Tobirama, not thanks to Minato who got trashed by Juubito and then later trashed against by Juubimadz. Please, provide some evidence that supports your view on Minato por favor. 

.


> and when has said substantial increase been compared to minato? its only his KCM which was compared to which yamato said he isn't there yet. try harder buddy



 And KCM Naruto was compared to Minato's speed in terms of reaction timing + FTG, not his actual Shunshin speed. 

 KCM does grant a substantial boost to the user, do you seriously think a Kyuubi Enhancement doesn't grant the user a substantial increase in physical stats? Guess what SM Naruto did that KCM Minato failed to do? That's right, actually strike Juubito. I like how you dodged me using your own faulty logic against you.




> because said minato who got the reactions and implied "Speed" to be superior than KCM Naruto who himself said he is much stronger and was also shown to be faster. clearly puts SM Naruto in the dust



 No, not from what the manga displayed. Keep following your faulty logic and you'll see why you'd have to assume SM Naruto is far faster than KCM Minato.





>









> how does he have more skill? when he said he cant even use FTG on the same scale as minato nor can he use ST barrier. lol the troll is real here



 He has a far more experienced usage of the Kage Bushin, has far more skill in mid-range combat in comparison to Minato, and has the higher degree of battle experience to support that.



> prove he got higher level sensing. jesus u make shit up. looool I guess u forgot minato can counter tobirama with a lot more ease



 Guess who managed to sense Juubito's weak spot while Minato stood their dumbfounded at what just happened? 

 That just merely supports Tobirama simply has superior battle instincts. 




> well minato has already on 2 occasions shown he got quicker reactions than kamui. first against obito which he trolled it casually



 And Obito admitted that he didn't warp him the instant he grabbed him. Had he and Minato would've been trolled by Kamui..



> then showed he can use hirashin twice on goudama which required kamui speed be doubled



 Team Effort and they're not that fast to begin with. 



> well those are the feats. its just simple madara a guy with exp on hirashin and the juubi jin trolled minato the second he appeared simple as that



 Exactly and how does that help Minato here? Please tell me why you think Minato got trolled the second he appeared? 




> and the second time A had no idea where minato went. and he never did in any fight or minato would not be considered the fastest and the stuff of legend according to A.



 Because he never knew that Minato was able to tag Bee in that moment considering he only used his Kunai to warp. Ei perceived all his attempts to warp to the Kunai, but what hurts you here is that Young Bee managed to anticipate where he'd warp to and reacted accordingly.

 Minato's the fastest with FTG, plain and simple.



> *first time juuubito I said not obito got trolled*
> 
> 1) tobirama clone
> 2) Sm Naruto
> 3) KCM minato using hirashin to allow Naruto and sasuke to escape a point blank attack



 Oh shit, so you truly have to believe SM Naruto >> KCM Minato >> Base Minato.

 The last attempt is so foolish. Juubito attempted to kill both Naruto and Sasuke before Minato could grab them and bail them out. He never did anything offensively with it. You have to be desperate if you really brought such an incomparable instant in to this.



> obito !! being trolled by hirashin
> 
> 1) rasengan to the back
> 2) contract seal moment
> 3) kunai slash which split his neck open before he turned into juubi jin. despite sensors around like KCM naruto, even KCM Naruto was surprised minato got struck so quick



 This has already been addressed and I suggest you educate yourself by reading this posts of this thread.

 Again, the contract seal was when Obito lost a sense of security and didn't perceive him tagging him which was after he was stunned by a Rasengan. All that means is that Minato used the element of surprise against him which further supports my point.



 You serious? Minato managed to slash an Obito who didn't expect himself to still be marked and was on his deathbed? 




> so In short u got nothing to assume. nagato got better reactions outside silly claims. loooool FRS....u bring up FRS in a minato discussion ooh buddy  that's just sad mehn
> FRS is shit tier speed compared to minato. its never even been hyped for its speed. not once



 Lack of comprehension amuses me. Tell me, what places Young Bee and Young Obito's reactions above Nagato? Please do tell me instead of dodging the evidence I provided.




> juubito was also a better sensor than obito and nagato. didn't stop SM Naruto from hitting him with rasengan though did it?
> 
> and that was a straight up blitz. he was looking right at them then Naruto smack him from the back



 Guess who helped SM Naruto hit Juubito with a Rasengan? Certainly wasn't Minato who stood there dumbfounded. 

 No, Juubito anticipated the strike. What he didn't anticipate was that it was his biggest weak spot and guess who managed to sense that it was? SM Naruto and Tobirama ... but not Minato.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why would Minato need time to respond to his own warp?
> 
> Minato would "begin" to attack before he warps so that when he gets there there's no wasted time.



 So in the moment that Minato moves at the speed of light, you truly think that Minato will be able to perform even a simple movement? That doesn't make sense. And even then, it's so insignificant because him adjusting himself to begin his strike before he warps hinders his time to react to his opponent and gives away what he's going to do anyways.

 Why would Minato need time to respond to his own warp? Simply because he simply can't react and perceive something instantaneous.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 22, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> minato was his teacher yet we are to believe obito somehow thought the kunai is behind me he cant teleport to it.


His students didn't properly know how ftg functioned. Hence why when minato saved kakashi and rin from the group of rock ninjas, kakashi asked how and minato had to explain how his jutsu operates. Kakashi didn't know he could teleport to his kunai. SO obviously obito wouldn't have known about this either. He had already been crushed by a rock, by the time minato explained to kakashi.


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't think Minato would have let Kakashi run ahead if the plan wasn't to FTG to him to save him should he need it.  He cares too much about his team.  I also don't think you can shunshin between two people and reverse direction like that.
> 
> Not that it matters, because I can forfeit that panel and point to the two other times he changed position from FTG.


He let kakashi run ahead because kakashi is a jonin and minato didn't want to argue with him and his whole "rules" crap. Besides, minato was backing him up, and covering him by deflecting shuriken. Kakashi wouldn't have been promoted to jonin if he wasn't capable of engaging the enemy in such situations. 

Of course you can, minato was just that good when it came to shunshin. The kanji also represents shunshin/high speed movement, like I already said. Theres a specific one kishi uses for FTG. Rin's comment kind of makes it obvious which it is.

Raw translation
"At the last moment, I was about to counter that kid matching his rhythm but..."
that, blond haired bastard's movements...."

You telling me some rock fodder can see and track FTG movement(s)?


NarutoX28 said:


> Unfortunately, the fact that KCM Naruto's Shunshin speed has been compared to the "Yellow Flash" seems to imply that it is referred to as "movement".
> 
> But personally, I have no problem seeing it as Shunshin or FTG in that scenario.



You can't even bring yourself to admit when others are comparing narutos shunshin to minatos shunshin. 

When naruto first used shunshin, it was a direct comparison to minatos shunshin. Both Yamato and Bee saw the resemblance. FTG is not comparable to the speed of shunshin (as the databook tells us). Nor would yamato ever say something so idiotic as  narutos version not being on minatos level "yet". Keyword is yet. shunshin can never reach ftg level, ftg is instant, shunshin is not. So obviously shunshin is what is being talked about. Yellow flash relates to minatos shunshin as well, hence why saving baby naruto with shunshin caused obito to say he lives up to his yellow flash name.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So in the moment that Minato moves at the speed of light, you truly think that Minato will be able to perform even a simple movement? That doesn't make sense.



You are not understanding me, or even really coming close. I suggest just going back and reading my posts again.



NarutoX28 said:


> And even then, it's so insignificant because him adjusting himself to begin his strike before he warps hinders his time to react to his opponent and gives away what he's going to do anyways..



If we're fighting and I go to hit you, you'd probably block me. If I go to hit you while appearing behind you at the same time, you'd probably fail to block because your brain has to first come to terms with the fact that I'm not in front of you anymore.

This is not a hard concept.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 22, 2015)

If you and Rocky fight, and Rocky's punch is 75-95% complete when he disappears and reappears behind you, that makes it even harder.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why would Minato need time to respond to his own warp?
> 
> Minato would "begin" to attack before he warps so that when he gets there there's no wasted time.


I'm basing this off the fact that he had to teleport first and then attack in nearly all of the instances that I can remember off the top of my head. Against A, B and Madara, teleporting and attacking never happened simultaneously. B was able to intercept him(twice if you believe he directed his sword @ his stomach when Minato was in position). Same goes for Madara. 

You may argue that it was near simultaneous against Obito but then, they were trading hits and Minato teleported on Obito's back when his rasengan was an inch away from landing.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You are not understanding me, or even really coming close. I suggest just going back and reading my posts again.



 Again, there's a point to what I said. If he begins his warp when his attack is  75%-95% completed, then that still gives his opponent such time to react to him before he performs the warp and it would also be even easier to anticipate what he intends on doing. Even then, in some cases, he'd have to re-adjust his body's position relative to his opponent's which makes it harder for him to do this successfully

 He can't negate this at all because as I said, he can't react or perceive something instantaneous.





> If we're fighting and I go to hit you, you'd probably block me. If I go to hit you while appearing behind you at the same time, you'd probably fail to block because your brain has to first come to terms with the fact that I'm not in front of you anymore.
> 
> This is not a hard concept.



 I understand what you're saying, but you increasing the amount of time before you warp by beginning your strike in advance gives your opponent more time to perceive what you're doing, anticipate where you'll warp and counter effectively. Nagato can easily counter this just by using Shinra Tensei as he begins his strike before Minato's warp. If Minato does warp, he'd just be sent flying at a high acceleration.

 But then again, Minato has never done this in the manga, so clearly it's not as effective as you're making out.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If you and Rocky fight, and Rocky's punch is 75-95% complete when he disappears and reappears behind you, that makes it even harder.



 But what happens if in that increment of time (before Minato's warp), I just step on the Kunai? I'm curious as to see what happens there.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'm basing this off the fact that he had to teleport first and then attack in nearly all of the instances that I can remember off the top of my head. Against A, B and Madara, teleporting and attacking never happened simultaneously.



I don't know what you thought you saw, but it wasn't right. Against Obito he popped up attacking both times, and against Madara he popped up swinging a Rasengan.

What you're saying makes no sense man. There is no reason Minato needs to act according to his surroundings following a warp_ if he knows what those surroundings will be_ before the jump.



> B was able to intercept him(twice if you believe he directed his sword @ his stomach when Minato was in position). Same goes for Madara.



B was able to intercept him because he knew when Minato was going to jump.

I find it really funny that people actually think B can create a tentacle and send it across a distance in response to Minato landing on A's back when v2 A himself couldn't do _shit_ in response to Minato landing on his back.

What, base B > v2 A? Or are you going to tell me that A couldn't find Minato who had just landed on his back?


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I understand what you're saying, but you increasing the amount of time before you warp by beginning your strike in advance gives your opponent more time to perceive what you're doing, anticipate where you'll warp and counter effectively.



Goddammit no, you don't understand. 

Minato doesn't begin swinging (as in doesn't begin the physical strike) before he warps. He begins swinging at the same time as the jump. The. Same. Time.

What that means is that Minato begins swinging at Obito's back _at the same time_ that Minato leaves Obito's vision.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Goddammit no, you don't understand.
> 
> Minato doesn't begin swinging (as in doesn't begin the physical strike) before he warps. He begins swinging at the same time as the jump. The. Same. Time.
> 
> What that means is that Minato begins swinging at Obito's back _at the same time_ that Minato leaves Obito's vision.



How is that possible? You're assuming he can complete most of his strike at the speed of light.


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## Rocky (Jun 22, 2015)

Why would Minato leaving Obito's vision while he begins swinging mean that Minato completes that swing instantaneously?


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## Hasan (Jun 23, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> No it wasnt. There would have been emphasis on the kunai if he warped (or minato would have mentioned it to kakashi the he warped to the kunai)



Actually, it was. Kishimoto often draws _small dust clouds_ for Hiraishin, just like he does for Kuchiyose no Jutsu. It is further evident from how Minato actually appears close to Kakashi's pouch bag, containing Minato's kunai. Plus, the second databook entry for Hiraishin has that very panel as central image.



> the rock ninja also wouldnt have referred to minatos save as "movement". Nor does kishi used the shunshin symbol for hiraishin. Nor would rin have made a big deal about miantos ftg, if she had already just seen it.



Shunshin has been used interchangeably with Hiraishin, a number of times. Obito (Note: Teleportation Technique = Shunshin no Jutsu) and Raikage also referred to it as such. Tobirama did too. When people compare Naruto's speed to Minato's _"Shunshin"_, they are, in fact, comparing it to Hiraishin.



NarutoX28 said:


> Here's an idea though. Maybe warping to another dimension is outright slower than phasing which is why it even required 2 Mangekyo to perform in the first place?



Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes. Do note that the linked translation is faulty, and I have trouble searching for the SleepyFans one. Rest assured, I wanted to point to the instance where it was noted. The correct translation has Konan saying that Tobi takes longer to warp himself, than warping others.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

^ Indeed.

 It seems logical. Juubidara can't even perceive Obito's attempts at phasing through him yet he was able to do so once Juubito started dimension hopping. Phasing itself seems rather instantaneous, but having to warp oneself seemingly takes a longer time based on the fact that it requires time for the "absorption" to occur. It's likely why Juubidara managed to counter him in the first place with a Gudoudama, because it's easier to anticipate and the fact that Obito has to perform that "absorption" process twice in order to switch dimensions.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why would Minato leaving Obito's vision while he begins swinging mean that Minato completes that swing instantaneously?



 Because he leaves Obito's vision instantaneously. If he begins his swing the moment he warps, he's not even moving a centimeter.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Of course he isn't. No actual movement of the Rasengan swing happens until he's already above Obito. 

That doesn't mean Obito can still respond to that swing in time when he needs a moment to realize that Minato isn't in front of him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Actually, it was. Kishimoto often draws _small dust clouds_ for Hiraishin, just like he does for Kuchiyose no Jutsu. It is further evident from how Minato actually appears close to Kakashi's pouch bag, containing Minato's kunai. Plus, the second databook entry for Hiraishin has that very panel as central image.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It looks like I do know a hiraishin when I see one.  How envious is Rin?


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 23, 2015)

Nagato is fresh, not having recently nuked Konoha right? 

Nagato curbs, no knowledge means all versions of Minato are getting ass-raped.

Furthermore, if this is the 3+3 format with the Pain bodies (as Nagato might choose to play).


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >spine caved in
> 
> No, his spine was not caved in, and losing an arm _isn't_ a game breaking injury for Obito.
> 
> ...


I love how minato fanboys claim Obito was defeated by Minato's Rasengan while at the same time claiming it did nothing to Obito, when it's beneficial to Minato. What a fair and unbiased standpoint you fanboys hold. 

Yeah I'm sure an attack that fucking hit Obito's Spine hard enough to tear off his arm didn't effect him at all. What fucking utter bias BS.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Yeah I'm sure an attack that fucking hit Obito's Spine hard enough to tear off his arm.



Do I even need to say anything? 

Btw you might have anger issues.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Also that was a spectacular strawman.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi I'm Turrin.  I laugh at other people who share my hobbies and belittle others with a haughty and condescending attitude and slurs if they disagree with personal interpretation of canon.  This, I feel, is proper etiquette for debate and discussion.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi I'm PoW.  I use sarcasm to make my point, instead of just saying it plainly and politely.  This, I feel, is more fun.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi I'm Rocky.  I am dah best.


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

do me next


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hi I'm Dr. White.  I like long hot showers and moonflower scented perfumes.  I, too believe Minato soloes, but only so PoW will like me.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 23, 2015)

Hasan said:


> Actually, it was. Kishimoto often draws _small dust clouds_ for Hiraishin, just like he does for Kuchiyose no Jutsu. It is further evident from how Minato actually appears close to Kakashi's pouch bag, containing Minato's kunai. Plus, the second databook entry for Hiraishin has that very panel as central image.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dust clouds were used in part one for shunshin multiple times. And no, dust clouds were shown with hiraishin twice max out of a possible 30 times. So how can you say usually? Next you will tell me that this was hiraishin too right:
|||||||||||
^Shunshin/High Speed Movement symbol|||||||||||||||||||||^Hiraishin/Instant Teleporation (Sasukes Amenojikra uses this symbol as well)

See the symbol i circled, its the exact same as the one shown on the page before of minato saving kakashi. And would you look at that, a dust cloud. I actually laughed when you said dust cloud distinguishes shunshin from hiraishin, biggest joke ive ever heard. Is this not kakashi using shunshin? And isnt that a dust cloud around him:
Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes

Go and read e databook 2 again before jumping to conclusions. That panel is used to show minato marking the rock ninjas foot/applying the jutsu shiki to the opponent. It even draws an arrow so that even a child can understand. However i guess that didnt work since you and multiple others have made he same mistake.nsays in the text minato applies a jutsu shiki to the emmies foot, then draws an arrow pointing to minato doing this, yet you somehow missed that lol.

Not when yamato and bee said it, it was clearly shunshin. Because minato was always good at shunshin. We know that from obitos statemements and because of what yamato said, saying naruto isnt on minatos level yet. Are you telling me shunshin can reach instantaneous transportation level? Clearly kishi makes parallel comparsions between narutos shunshin and minatod, i thought these 2 scans made it obvious:
Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes
Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes - notice obitos yellow flash comments as well, about the yellow flash. Unkess you think this was hiraishin too.

Anyone who can read knows when kishi is referrring to shunshin and when hes referring to hiraishin. He makes it clear as day.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Of course he isn't. No actual movement of the Rasengan swing happens until he's already above Obito.



 But him escaping Obito's vision has everything to do with him warping to the Kunai which is instantaneous. You're assuming that Minato can just begin his strike the instant he warps and come out of the warp with most of the Rasengan swing already completed. If he merely begins his swing the instant he warps, then it makes no difference as he has to adjust himself and that the swing is at the very start of it's movement anyways. It hardly makes a difference.



> That doesn't mean Obito can still respond to that swing in time when he needs a moment to realize that Minato isn't in front of him.



 Except if he anticipates and detects where he warps to, then the surprise from the "unexpected" attack is diminished. We've already seen Young Obito effortlessly react to Minato's strike speed. this isn't anything new. If he detects his attempts of striking him post-warp, it gets hard-countered and he simply phases through. At least this is somewhat applicable to Nagato as he has something that has nearly an instantaneous activation time: Shinra Tensei.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You're assuming that Minato can just begin his strike the instant he warps and come out of the warp with most of the Rasengan swing already completed.



No, I am not.

That doesn't make sense.



NarutoX28 said:


> If he merely begins his swing the instant he warps, then it makes no difference as he has to adjust himself and that the swing is at the very start of it's movement anyways. It hardly makes a difference.



It makes all the difference. Don't just say things to say them. Obito's synapse speed is not instantaneous. 

Obito was not fast enough to process Hiraishin and still respond to Minato's strike speed. Him being able to respond to Minato's strike speed without first having to realize Hiraishin happened is utterly irrelevant. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Except if he anticipates and detects where he warps to, then the surprise from the "unexpected" attack is diminished.



When did I _ever_ dispute that? If Obito had some way of knowing when the jump would be, he'd be able to phase through the Rasengan.

He doesn't have a way to anticipate Minato's jumps though, so....

...he lost.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Can react to Juubidara striking him at point-blank range.

Can't react to Minato jumping and having to complete his arm motion.



If the excuse is that Obito has to process Minato's jump first (one of the the most basic mental reactions) and that it what gives Minato the edge then I really don't understand either what manga some of you are reading or if it is the _Naruto _manga how you're interpreting it.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Hey, why don't you explain to me what you think happened.

Do you think Minato jumped, and Obito saw it, and looked around, and didn't see Minato, and decided he was safe, and chose not to activate Kamui, and got hit by Rasengan.

Because I seriously hope not.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

I've already done that numerous times throughout the thread. It's obviously a futile exercise at this point. At least I can take some comfort in that my interpretation makes sense with what the manga is telling me.

I would however like to know how you justify your reasoning in the face of Obito being able to react to a vastly faster character at point-blank range but can't to Minato's jump and completion of his arm motion. Again, it appears to me that your whole justification for this is that the time it takes for Obito to process Minato's jump is what breaches this massive gap in difference in speed--to which I would say if that's what you believe then we're simply never going to agree here.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> I've already done that numerous times throughout the thread. It's obviously a futile exercise at this point. At least I can take some comfort in that my interpretation makes sense with what the manga is telling me.



Your interpretation that Obito's speed is not the reason he lost "the battle of speed" is probably not the right interpretation. 



> I would however like to know how you justify your reasoning in the face of Obito being able to react to a vastly faster character at point-blank range but can't to Minato's jump and completion of his arm motion.



Different Obito



≠



Point justified.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

The gap between the 2 Obito's is vastly smaller than the gap between Juubidara and Base Minato.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Obito did not react to Jubidara using Hiraishin while striking him...so I don't really care if that's true or not..


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Your interpretation that Obito's speed is not the reason he lost "the battle of speed" is probably not the right interpretation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yeah, that Obito. Able to form a mental reaction so much quicker that he can make up for a massive physical speed gap. 

This is what you're saying.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Just so I understand, you believe that Obito lost "the battle of speed" with Yondaime because he thought Minato had jumped somewhere else and didn't realize Minato was above him, which meant that he didn't think he needed to activate Kamui, right?

That's your view?


----------



## Dr. White (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hi I'm Dr. White.  I like long hot showers and moonflower scented perfumes.  I, too believe Minato soloes, but only so PoW will like me.



spot on


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

This is what Obito tells us so 100% yes.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Okay, so I'm just going to pretend for a moment that an argument suggesting that Obito's Kamui speed has nothing to do with the reason he lost something Kishi dubbed "the battle of speed" is _not_ bad.

So for starters, why don't you tell me how Obito didn't know that Minato was above him.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Because he doesn't have eyes on the back of his head?  Not sure exactly what you're asking here.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

I knew that was going to be your response.

My next question is; is Obito deaf?


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

So, what? He should have heard the Rasengan in back? Yeah, explain that to Juubidara who apparently couldn't hear Black-Zetsu creeping up on him, or other instances of sound being ignored as a helpful indicator.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Madara was a sensor too, so I guess sensing isn't an answer to being blindsided either. 

Please knock off the excuses. How do you think Obito was able to counter the fifty gagillion attacks outside of his sight line during the Naruto/Masters fight? Magic?


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

Just an innocent question, why is this all about Minato and Obito, instead of Minato and Nagato?
Does Nagato have Kamui or other similarities with Obito or something?


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

It's about how effective linked vision and sensing are against Hiraishin.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Madara was a sensor too, so I guess sensing isn't an answer to being blindsided either.
> 
> Please knock off the excuses. How do you think Obito was able to counter the fifty gagillion attacks outside of his sight line during the Naruto/Masters fight? Magic?


Yeah, thanks for further substantiating my point 

And your excuses comment is highly ironic considering mine is a consistent one while you're defense for Obito being able to react to Juudara and not Minato is that he was able to think faster


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

Comparing Minato and Obito's cases is silly to begin with. Minato attacked like an enemy, while Obito fooled him
to think he is an ally. 

Minato was attacked with the Gedu-dama, while Obito was not, and when he was attacked by them he couldn't use Kamui.

It's just like how Madara got his ass wiped in front of Gai's speed and couldn't react to it, but Minato did react to
the fastest step (the 5th step) when Gai was using them.

2 completely different things/situations. 




> It's about how effective linked vision and sensing are against Hiraishin.



Thanks. ^^


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know what you thought you saw, but it wasn't right. Against Obito he popped up attacking both times, and against Madara he popped up swinging a Rasengan.


I explained Obito bit, which you deliberately ignored. Obito thought he could warp Minato second he touched him, which is the reason why he didn't feel threatened even when Minato's rasengan was an inch away from his face. He basically was ok with trading hits because he thought he'd come out on top. 
As for Madara, no. He didn't : Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes
He had a rasengan ready, but his arm was all the way back. He was @  the beginning of his motion when he appeared.



> What you're saying makes no sense man. There is no reason Minato needs to act according to his surroundings following a warp_ if he knows what those surroundings will be_ before the jump.


Then why couldn't he land a hit on A or Madara or B ? 
Let me tell you why. Because he is still bound by the limitations of his reaction and body speed when it comes to striking. Moving A to B is instant, rest of it isn't.



> B was able to intercept him because he knew when Minato was going to jump.



Like anyone else who sees a marked Kunai.



> I find it really funny that people actually think B can create a tentacle and send it across a distance in response to Minato landing on A's back when v2 A himself couldn't do _shit_ in response to Minato landing on his back.


A couldn't do shit because he was already in motion with his top speed and Minato landed on his back. It is impossible to halt all that momentum in an instant and turn back obviously. 

This just proves that what makes it hard to react to Hirashin is the surprise factor, not Minato's body speed(which can be reacted by the likes of B).



> What, base B > v2 A? Or are you going to tell me that A couldn't find Minato who had just landed on his back?



I didn't say that, but this further proves my point.
You can react to what you can see. 
You can react unless you are blindsided or caught completely off guard.
B saw Minato and reacted. A couldn't because he was blindsided in mid action, same as Obito.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

@Format

I was being sarcastic. Wow.

If your point is that sight is the only way to tell that someone his behind you, then you might as well close Narutoforums and go skim over the manga again.

He was able to react to Madara because he was stronger then (and had the benefit of Sharingan precognition for what its worth).


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because Tobirama outright stated Minato's Shunshin was better than his, not his actual movement speed. I realized my wording there was terrible, but I didn't think you were this desperate as I would have thought you would've understood my point. Do you honestly think Minato's physical speed is that high when it's only comparable to Young Obito's?



shushin is movement speed though.  in your entire post if you dont know that 

young obito is obito. kishi didnt care to state a difference between the 2. so yh minato physical speed will be superior quite simply 

minato afterall did catch naruto before obito could stab him. did u see the distance he crossed with physical speed? he had no marked his kid. so thats shunshin right there

you wank on about A doing the same to minato. well here minato did it to obito casually 




> He got from point A to point B physically first because he used Shunshin whereas it's arguable if Tobirama did, but I have no doubt Minato would've outsped him even if Tobirama used Shunshin.



it only is if u trolling. so tobirama decided to stroll to the battle field ? then kishi has him make the your shushin is better than mine for fun?



> Again, everybody could do simple reactions against the Gudoudama. It's not like they're incredibly fast in the first place. Hell, the gang had no problem reacting to Juubito's Gudoudama yet they did when attempting to perceive his Shunshin or Physical speed (as it took a while for BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke to do so). Even then, it was a team effort and clearly not a representation of their reflexes, but only their perception of speed. As I stated before, it had more to do with it being slower than a Juubi Jin's actual speed.



exactly thats why obito could kamui wrap from it right? u know the obito that stole part of hachibi  and ichibi

actually u being a troll if u think goudama arent fast. 

everyone is slower than a juubi jin 


> Here's an idea though. Maybe warping to another dimension is outright slower than phasing which is why it even required 2 Mangekyo to perform in the first place?



of course it is. who claimed otherwise. point is kamui wrap is fast yet its speed had to be doubled to do somethign minato could do twice. 



> Yes, he dropped the Kunai and performed a mental reflex. Is that even comparable to the distance Ei flicker to? No, no it's not. I'm implying that Minato's only method of beating Ei is to deceive him in where he warps to. If Ei perceives where Minato warps to, then he gets his face punched in, simple as that as it leaves Minato in a vulnerable position and he'd likely have to readjust himself to perceive Ei's flicker. It's still implied that Minato would've been left vulnerable, so I'm not sure what you're attempting to prove here.



yes, obito tried to stab naruto and failed because minato shunshin and caught naruto. minato physical speed clearly exceeds obito's

see how that works? 

yh when has A tactic actually worked? u think it would have? u know..minato is the stuff of legend as said by A but yh sure go on thinking A actually stood a chance despite admitting he really didnt 



> Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes
> 
> Here. He marked an MS user when he least expected it which caused confusion and Tobirama utilized Shunshin to deal the final blow before Izuna could react. Him dashing and lunging straight through Izuna suggests it.



 

omg thats hirashingiri!! *HIRASHIN* GIRI the basis of that attack was hirashin. no shunshin used there 



> Even then, my main point was to prove that Ei simply has higher reflexes.



good for A he is still slower. 




> Show me scans of Minato trolling Juubito with Hiraishin because the only person that did was Tobirama.



 yes the same tobirama who admitted he wasnt as good at hirashin compared to minato 





>



 



> Do you even hear yourself? Obviously warping at the speed of light is a factor, but the person has to re-adjust himself and utilize his own reflexes for an attack. What happens if his opponent anticipates where he warps to? Well, he pretty much gets countered like Young Bee did against Minato.



sadly it isnt at all easy to anticipate where minato wraps to. or A would have casually done it all his life and killed minato while he was at it. yet he admitted minato is the stuff of legend am second in speed to him. again killer bee reacting is killer bee reacting on instinct something no one else showed at all 




> Yeah, Young Obito countered Hiraishin, hence why Minato had to use it twice to bail him out. Why do you think he used a more advanced version of FTG? To utilize the element of surprise because he knew Obito could easily perceive his own speed and the manga suggests it.



sorry how did obito counter it? it was used twice to troll him. scans of this fictional counter please 

more advanced version is jumping to a moving kunai. big whoop! he can use a more advanced version any and everytime he wants 

minato vs obito was a speed battle. obito lost. simple 




> Obito never expected Minato warp to the Kunai and Obito stated that. Maybe it's because Minato has always used it defensively and solely relied on a previously placed Kunai to warp to? Really, just think for a moment before you post.




which makes obito an idiot. obito who saw minato troll the rock ninja using hirashin? u mean that obito? explain how that hirahsin was defensive please? all obito saw him do was jump with hirashin why would anyone with half a brain assume it cant be used offensively 

u arent thinking at all. so i dont even need to beg you to think. 




> Because Young Obito never anticipated that he'd warp to the Kunai thrown which supports my argument perfectly.



so young obito with knowledge on hirahsin never expected such an obvious move but nagato with no knowledge would expect it? is that what u are saying?



> All of the moments that Juubito got hit was thanks to Tobirama, not thanks to Minato who got trashed by Juubito and then later trashed against by Juubimadz. Please, provide some evidence that supports your view on Minato por favor.



lol silly distinction tobirama already said he wasnt as good at hirashin. try harder




> And KCM Naruto was compared to Minato's speed in terms of reaction timing + FTG, not his actual Shunshin speed.



feel free to show scans where kishi makes that distinction please. all kishi talks about is minato speed. which is everythign in relation to speed only NF trolls care to make that distinction 



> KCM does grant a substantial boost to the user, do you seriously think a Kyuubi Enhancement doesn't grant the user a substantial increase in physical stats? Guess what SM Naruto did that KCM Minato failed to do? That's right, actually strike Juubito. I like how you dodged me using your own faulty logic against you.



 and base minato reacted to goudama twice and allowed gai to attack juudara. try harder

KCM boosting naruto got no baring on what it would do to minato. who for one doesnt even need to rely on physical speed. same reason obito really can be as slow as genin sakura and still troll people using kamui. 





> No, not from what the manga displayed. Keep following your faulty logic and you'll see why you'd have to assume SM Naruto is far faster than KCM Minato.



 sadly kishi disagrees. but keep claiming that. i guess using ur logic tobirama clone is faster than tobirama since tobirama never actually was able to hit juubito with much of anything once juubito got control 





>









> He has a far more experienced usage of the Kage Bushin, has far more skill in mid-range combat in comparison to Minato, and has the higher degree of battle experience to support that.



what can he do with KB that minato cant? feel free to tell me. good he has mid range attacks. why woudl minato need such ? the guy appears in ur face. the BS u come up with is like saying obito would loose to someone simply because they got mid range attacks and more exp 



> Guess who managed to sense Juubito's weak spot while Minato stood their dumbfounded at what just happened?



hirashin still hit him. guess who has a better version than tobirama's?



> That just merely supports Tobirama simply has superior battle instincts.



as does killer bee. who shivered at hearing minato name.  the kid had been raped before




> And Obito admitted that he didn't warp him the instant he grabbed him. Had he and Minato would've been trolled by Kamui..



lol wishful thinking. u mean the minato he attacked from behind? oh u forgot that didnt u. when he attacked minato when minato was aware he was there how did that go for obito?



> Team Effort and they're not that fast to begin with.



i guess one forgets minato can use clones to easily replicate team effort against the likes of nagato




> Exactly and how does that help Minato here? Please tell me why you think Minato got trolled the second he appeared?



because juudara>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>anyone mentioned in this thread. 




> Because he never knew that Minato was able to tag Bee in that moment considering he only used his Kunai to warp. Ei perceived all his attempts to warp to the Kunai, but what hurts you here is that Young Bee managed to anticipate where he'd warp to and reacted accordingly.



so he didnt know. so how could he know if minato didnt touch the tree he appeared to? thats A shortcomings. if he never knew minato could wrap to what he touches then his theory was BS. 

nothign hurts me. that just means bee got better instincts than A who got trolled 



> Minato's the fastest with FTG, plain and simple.



its a good thing he has it and spams it then 



> Oh shit, so you truly have to believe SM Naruto >> KCM Minato >> Base Minato.



no i dont believe that. what the fuck is wrong with you? you brain dead 

i believe minato>Sm naruto or any version of naruto bar So6P when it comes to *speed*


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

> The last attempt is so foolish. Juubito attempted to kill both Naruto and Sasuke before Minato could grab them and bail them out. He never did anything offensively with it. You have to be desperate if you really brought such an incomparable instant in to this


.

tobirama marked him early on which made tobirama relevant. tobirama has a lesser version of FTG 

only a brain dead person woudl suggest that if minato marked juubito he couldnt replicate everything tobirama did 



> This has already been addressed and I suggest you educate yourself by reading this posts of this thread.



the troll is real



> Again, the contract seal was when Obito lost a sense of security and didn't perceive him tagging him which was after he was stunned by a Rasengan. All that means is that Minato used the element of surprise against him which further supports my point.



oh really? then minato lost a sense of security when juubito chopped his hand. he also lost a sense of security when juudara chopped his hand and kicked him. thats why he couldnt hirashin away

see how that works?  juubito and juudara used the element of surprise. 

minato wasnt aware juubito had gained control. nor was he aware juudara was expecting him to appear there



>







> You serious? Minato managed to slash an Obito who didn't expect himself to still be marked and was on his deathbed?



again obito short comings. why would nagato expect to still be marked or know being marked means minato can rape him for sport 




> Lack of comprehension amuses me. Tell me, what places Young Bee and Young Obito's reactions above Nagato? Please do tell me instead of dodging the evidence I provided.



 feats! u know the thing u harp on about when it comes to tobirama..yet ignore his obvious statement of inferiority to minato




> Guess who helped SM Naruto hit Juubito with a Rasengan? Certainly wasn't Minato who stood there dumbfounded.



see above. if u can translate bee feat to assume nagato reacts. then i can say for sure tobirama who admitted to be minato inferior feats can casually be translated to minato. see how that works?



> No, Juubito anticipated the strike. What he didn't anticipate was that it was his biggest weak spot and guess who managed to sense that it was? SM Naruto and Tobirama ... but not Minato.



didnt help him defend himself though did it. so nagato can anticiapte. wont help him defend himself 

again tobirama admitted to being minato inferior

*u are so awfully biased lets summarize ur BULLSHIT*

1)A is sooo much physically faster than minato he crossed a huge distance before minato coudl flick a kunai 

yet minato isnt alot faster than obito when he basically did the same thing to obito 

2) young bee reacted therefore nagato can 

yet tobirama who admits to being slower than minato yet tobirama feats cant be used to say what minato could do if he marked juubito 

3) obito with knoweldge didnt expect minato could jump to a moving kunai 

yet nagato with no knowledge will instantly know 

4) obito lost sense of confidence after being hit by rasengan 

yet somehow the same doesnt apply to minato who lost his hand. 

if u can say minato reactions are poor because he failed to use hirashin in time to escape then obito reactions are worse since he failed to phase in time to avoid minato follow up attack 



 you are comical


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

I don't think NarutoX28  makes any sense, but I agree with him this time about the FTG-Giri
it does have shunshin in it. In addition to the FTG of course.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Format
> 
> I was being sarcastic. Wow.
> 
> ...


Sarcasm or not, your comment on Juudara not noticing BZ while also being a sensor is further proof to what I'm saying. Which is not btw that sight is is the only means of pinpointing an enemy. Your contention was that Obito should have heard the Rasengan when shit like this happens. Not an excuse so much as an acceptance that Kishi has done similar things before. 

Again, what does Obito being stronger have to do with his ability to form a mental reaction? Where, actually, are you getting the idea that he was stronger at all given that he was on his death bed and hadn't regained the Rikudo chakra yet that he'd lost?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Tobirama has shown better strategy with Hirashin, despite being inferior on paper. I have to agree with that.
And while I think Minato is stronger, because his Hirashin is more versatile, Tobirama was portrayed to be a stronger Shinobi(moving his finger made everyone shit their pants a presence Minato doesn't have), though I don't know what Kishimoto was thinking when he drew that instance.

edit : 


StickaStick said:


> Sarcasm or not, your comment on Juudara not noticing BZ while also being a sensor is an appropriate one. Which is not btw that sight is is the only means of pinpointing an enemy. Your contention was that Obito should have heard the Rasengan when shit like this happens. Not an excuse so much as an acceptance that Kishi has done similar things before.
> 
> Again, what does Obito being stronger have to do with his ability to form a mental reaction? Where, actually, are you getting the idea that he was stronger at all given that he was on his death bed and hadn't regained the Rikudo chakra yet that he'd lost?



He has a point. Obito could use the black staff, which normal people can't touch. He still had some rikodou power left in him.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He was @  the beginning of his motion when he appeared.



Yes, obviously. 

What I'm wondering is where you got the idea Minato paused to adjust to his surroundings before continuing that swing.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why couldn't he land a hit on A or Madara or B ?



He was going to hit A, Madara is a God Tier speedster, and B knew when Minato was going to jump.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like anyone else who sees a marked Kunai.



All that tells them is that there's a possibility that Minato has the ability to jump there in the future.

Not when that jump will happen.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> A couldn't do shit because he was already in motion with his top speed and Minato landed on his back. It is impossible to halt all that momentum in an instant and turn back obviously.



...you actually think A was still moving at v2 speeds when Minato landed on him?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> This just proves that what makes it hard to react to Hirashin is the surprise factor, not Minato's body speed(which can be reacted by the likes of B).



If by "surprise factor" you mean that people who don't know when a jump is coming will fail to react, then yes, I agree.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

> though I don't know what Kishimoto was thinking when he drew that instance.



Just like Sakura punching the ground made Narudo scared. a presence that neither Kaguya nor Madara or the others have.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't think NarutoX28  makes any sense, but I agree with him this time about the FTG-Giri
> it does have shunshin in it. In addition to the FTG of course.



 Great, I'm actually thankful I was right about that as that was something I wasn't exactly sure of. It makes sense though.

 He tagged Izuna and executes a Shunshin along with a swift lunge that managed to blitz an MS user.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Great, I'm actually thankful I was right about that as that was something I wasn't exactly sure of. It makes sense though.
> 
> He tagged Izuna and executes a Shunshin along with a swift lunge that managed to blitz an MS user.



honestly my agreement with you in this point is based on his second show of FTG-Giri when he used
it against Madara. There was an obvious indication of him using a shunshin to strike.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yes, obviously.
> 
> What I'm wondering is where you got the idea Minato paused to adjust to his surroundings before continuing that swing.


If it is something he does on the fly, then he probably needs to process his environment and his opponent like everyone else would.



> He was going to hit A, Madara is a God Tier speedster, and B knew when Minato was going to jump.


He was going to hit A but he was intercepted by B, meaning there is a delay in between teleporting and striking.
Madara is obviously faster, but we've seen Juubito not being able to react to Tobirama/Naruto combo, because he was blindsided and he was busy talking(surprise factor). 
It isn't a coincedence that Hirashin is usually successful when the opponent can't see it.
And how can B know exactly when and where Minato'd jump. I'm pretty sure the visual cue allowed him to react, not anything else.



> All that tells them is that there's a possibility that Minato has the ability to jump there in the future.
> 
> Not when that jump will happen.


I depends on the situation. But non the less, it allows you to preempt his moves, as long as you know where his marks are.



> ...you actually think A was still moving at v2 speeds when Minato landed on him?


Probably, he just missed his punch, but nothing stopped his advance. And even if it was V1, it is still physically impossible for someone to halt momentum and perform a manuver in the opposite direction in an instant. 



> If by "surprise factor" you mean that people who don't know when a jump is coming will fail to react, then yes, I agree.


No, I don't mean that.
By surprise factor I mean not having knowledge and getting blindsided.

As long as you have the marks in your vision, I don't think it'd be hard to react to Minato(talking about Shinobi in his ballpark obviously).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> Sarcasm or not, your comment on Juudara not noticing BZ while also being a sensor is further proof to what I'm saying.



I don't know why he'd care if BZ is behind him when that's his ally and backup.  I do know why he'd be surprised if his ally betrayed him.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> honestly my agreement with you in this point is based on his second show of FTG-Giri when he used
> it against Madara. There was an obvious indication of him using a shunshin to strike.



or could just be since his strike speed is slower than minato and since he has a less efficient version of hirashin kishi shows him striking 

FTG giri is purely hirashin and got nothing to do with shunshin or there would be no need to mark a kunai or mark an area close to izuna

read the description of the attack 

this is also target at NarutoX28 with his fan fic that tobirama used shunshin


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## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

@Icegaze

I haven't read your whole debate with him honestly. It's just while I'm scrolling down noticed that part. Regardless, Minato having faster FTG and shunshin is a manga fact and got conformed 3 times in the Databook, and only people I know deny that are Tobirama's fanboys, or Minato's haters. You know well, that I don't see Tobirama in the same tier with Minato, but regardless, the FTG-giri seems to required shunshin speed as well

Kamui is a lot slower when the user is warping himself, yes
see the lines behind Tobirama in the second panel. 

Well, at least that's my take.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If it is something he does on the fly, then he probably needs to process his environment and his opponent like everyone else would.



That doesn't make any sense. 

Try giving me an example or analogy or something.



> He was going to hit A but he was intercepted by B, meaning there is a delay in between teleporting and striking.



You mean a delay between teleporting and the _conclusion_ of the strike.



> I depends on the situation. But non the less, it allows you to preempt his moves, as long as you know where his marks are.



..and when he'll jump to them.



> Probably, he just missed his punch, but nothing stopped his advance. And even if it was V1, it is still physically impossible for someone to halt momentum and perform a manuver in the opposite direction in an instant.



I'm confused. When do you think A stopped moving?



> As long as you have the marks in your vision, I don't think it'd be hard to react to Minato(talking about Shinobi in his ballpark obviously).



Contract Seal example.

Also, shinobi can hear and what not, so it's kinda impossible for Minato to "blindside" someone while holding a Rasengan.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Icegaze
> 
> I haven't read your whole debate with him honestly. It's just while I'm scrolling down noticed that part. Regardless, Minato having faster FTG and shunshin is a manga fact and got conformed 3 times in the Databook, and only people I know deny that are Tobirama's fanboys, or Minato's haters. You know well, that I don't see Tobirama in the same tier with Minato, but regardless, the FTG-giri seems to required shunshin speed as well
> 
> ...



minato has the same lines when he appears behind A 

just saying

for me its simple tobirama reactions simply dont allow him to strike as quick. or perhaps when he threw the kunai at madara he appeared too soon. which forced him to lunge. or he lunges to increase damage, quite clearly running at me with a sword would hurt more than a simple kunai jab 

in any case whats clear is whatever tobirama can do with hirashin minato can do it quicker and better

@Rocky 

i agree with all you have said
the obito didnt know minato was above him is nothign short but a BS excuse. kishi made it clear that it was about speed, speed is what prevailed

in fact even A implying he can anticiapte where minato wraps to goes to show kishi never tried to make hirashin about it being unpredictable but about it being simply too dam fast


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't make any sense.
> 
> Try giving me an example or analogy or something.


It makes sense for me, I and I am not sure if its possible to make it any more clear.



> You mean a delay between teleporting and the _conclusion_ of the strike.



What you choose to name it is irrelevant, but yes, you could say that. 



> ..and when he'll jump to them.


Its not necessary, as he is not invisible. You'll see him when he pops up.



> I'm confused. When do you think A stopped moving?


Bottom left panel, you can see the mark where he stops moving.



> Contract Seal example.


Obito wasn't aware he that was marked, and it was literally a second after he got his shit torn apart. 



> Also, shinobi can hear and what not, so it's kinda impossible for Minato to "blindside" someone while holding a Rasengan.


So you'r saying that Nagato heard Itachi approach him with a huge ass chakra construct but he couldn't react because Itachi moved and struck faster than he could form a coherent thought.
Insert millions of other blindside panels in the manga.

Seriously man. Don't go there.


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## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

the lines with around Minato's are much smaller
Bottom left panel
and that indicates his appearance. However, the lines with Tobirama is much longer. 

but yet again, that's my take. 
even tho I don't know what it matters in any case to be honest.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> the lines with around Minato's are much smaller
> Bottom left panel
> and that indicates his appearance. However, the lines with Tobirama is much longer.
> 
> ...



i agree it doesnt matter

it simply cant be shunshin when kishi goes to name the technique hirashin giri 

thats just tobirama BS when people lack anything decent to come up with 

a hirashin user using shunshin is mostly just silly. when hirashin makes shunshin look useless in battle


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

What's come to be my favorite aspect of this thread, besides Rocky, are posters willingness to accept the terms of absurdity presented by other sides.

*Don't you find it absurd that your interpretation has the fastest man alive be slow?*

He's not fast, he's confusing.  Anyone with decent speed can counter him.

*Do you find it absurd that your interpretation holds young Bee at the cusp of the ninja world, performing feats not seen until end of series god tiers appear?*

I'm completely okay with that.  That's the intent Kishi wanted us to take from the scene.

*Isn't calling a battle of speed not a speed battle ridiculous?*

No, it sounds about right.

*Do you really think the character can process Minato's disappearance, locate him, and take multiple actions to defend and counter before the strike two inches away from their neck connects?*

Yeah, they can, if they keep calm about it.

*Do you really believe that Bee's tentacle moved faster than V2 Ei's max shunshin?*

That seems most likely.

*Disclaimer:*  All supposed examples are cheaply paraphrased and not intended to be construed as insult or argument.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It makes sense for me, I and I am not sure if its possible to make it any more clear.



It making sense for you does not actually mean it makes sense.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not necessary, as he is not invisible. You'll see him when he pops up.



..and unless you knew exactly when he was going to get there, then you'll probably need a moment to realize he's no longer where you're looking.

Think about what you just said. If we're ten meters apart, and I instantaneously pop up in front of you, you aren't going to "see me when I pop up" unless either: 

a.) You shifted your visual focus to my destination (right in front of you in this case) _before_ I actually jumped there.

or

b.) You have instantaneous synapse speed. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Bottom left panel, you can see the mark where he stops moving.



You think B smacked v2 A with a tentacle mid-flicker!?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Insert millions of other blindside panels in the manga.



For each panel you insert, I'll match it with a panel of Obito phasing through an attack he couldn't have possibly seen coming.

Then maybe we can all agree that this "Minato was outside of Obito's sight line, this has nothing to do with speed" argument is bull.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> If it is something he does on the fly, then he probably needs to process his environment and his opponent like everyone else would.
> That doesn't make any sense.





> Try giving me an example or analogy or something.




It's commonly accepted that Minato has some kind of awareness around the tags he warps to, which prevents him from warping himself into the ground or trees or halfway through an enemy, or into a flying weapon.  This compliments his ability to warp in just the general location around the tag, in different positions.

Similar to kuchiyose, which can be summoned mid-block.  You know, rather than summoning a froggy to get wtfpwned by the blade he didn't know was there and couldn't see to react to through the smoke puff.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

If I could rep every post of yours in this thread I'd have done it a few times over by now.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> or could just be since his strike speed is slower than minato and since he has a less efficient version of hirashin kishi shows him striking
> 
> FTG giri is purely hirashin and got nothing to do with shunshin or there would be no need to mark a kunai or mark an area close to izuna
> 
> ...



 Yet he dashed forward and lunged straight through Izuna.

 He used Hiraishin to close the distance between him and Izuna and utilized a Shunshin + Swift Lunge to strike him before Izuna could react. Unfortunately, we have no idea what happened in that fight other than that, so we have no idea if Tobirama placed a tag on him that Izuna didn't anticipate.

 If it was purely Hiraishin, then Tobirama wouldn't have made contact with Izuna in the first place.

 As for Hussain, yeah, I agree. I forgot he utilized it there, but it makes sense. Tobirama simply gains added momentum from his Shunshin which increases the overall effectiveness of the technique. The Shunshin also makes it more likely for the strike to land. It makes sense. I can't understand how IceGaze would believe it was purely Hiraishin in either scenario.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

It's amusing to see so many people think that Minato isn't that fast anymore if you know what Hiraishin does.


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## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

^
hasn't that always been the case tho?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> He used Hiraishin to close the distance between him and Izuna and utilized a Shunshin + Swift Lunge to strike him before Izuna could react.
> 
> If it was purely Hiraishin, then Tobirama wouldn't have made contact with Izuna in the first place.



Tobirama's momentum is stopped.

He uses Hiraishin-giri again in mid-air.  

Tobirama is using invisible rocket thrusters to fly towards Madara?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

^ Tobirama jumps to another dimension during his warp and enters their dimension once he reaches his tag/Kunai. How is he hitting Izuna during that time period?

 Using Shunshin and ending up mid-air isn't something new as both KCM Naruto and V1 Ei have done it before.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

There's no other dimension...


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> There's no other dimension...



 It's Space/Time Ninjutsu though. All Space/Time Ninjutsu to my knowledge involves another dimension.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Is time in the Narutoverse dimension frozen while Tobirama walks to his marker in this FTG dimension?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> It making sense for you does not actually mean it makes sense.


Its like if you teleport infront of me, you still need to take my defensive measures and possible counters into consideration. You can't strike me instantly. On top of that If I preempt your jump and attempt to counter hit you, you have to react to that.

It comes down to the delay I was talking about earlier. Minato moves from A to B in an instant, but his delivery of the hit isn't instantaneous.



> ..and unless you knew exactly when he was going to get there, then you'll probably need a moment to realize he's no longer where you're looking.
> 
> Think about what you just said. If we're ten meters apart, and I instantaneously pop up in front of you, you aren't going to "see me when I pop up" unless either:
> 
> ...



Or I can simply react to you as I can see you. Seems to me that you'r trying to overcomplicate something very simpe.



> You think B smacked v2 A with a tentacle mid-flicker!?


Most likely, as he was still in motion when Minato appeared on his back. He might be slowing down but looking @ his body posture, his arm was extended infront of him and his legs were in movement pose, so he still wasn't able to recover from his swing. 
That is the point, the technicality of his exact speed is irrelevant.




> For each panel you insert, I'll match it with a panel of Obito phasing through an attack he couldn't have possibly seen coming.




You can't.
Also do  you agree that Itachi can move and stirke with Susano'o faster than Nagato can from a coherent thought ? 



> Then maybe we can all agree that this "Minato was outside of Obito's sight line, this has nothing to do with speed" argument is bull.




Obito never expressed how fast Minato was. He only expressed his surprise @ how Minato teleported to the kunai behind the back of his head.
If you think it was all about speed, then why do you think Minato had to wait until last second and then teleport behind Obito. If reacting to Hirashin was impossible, as you claim it is, then why didn't Minato throw a kunai @ Obito's feet and smack him down with a rasengan like he was attempting to do with Madara ?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

You come out of hiraishin mid-slash at your top speed.

Ever heard of ?  The frog comes crashing in as if it had the acceleration of a several hundred meter high dive, with the strength of the fall being based on the user's master of space/time jutsu (the kuchiyose).


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## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

> You can't.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's Space/Time Ninjutsu though. All Space/Time Ninjutsu to my knowledge involves another dimension.



Obito's does, and Kaguya's does. Those move through and join multiple dimensions.  Hiraishin doesn't.  It only moves through a single dimension.  Minato can't hang out in hiraishin-land.

I just checked the DB entries for  and , and neither of them indicate another dimension.  Haku's mirror does, but only when he's inside the mirror.


----------



## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its like if you teleport infront of me, you still need to take my defensive measures and possible counters into consideration.



Why would I need to do that when I'm going to hit you before you take any. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato moves from A to B in an instant, but his delivery of the hit isn't instantaneous.



I agree.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Or I can simply react to you as I can see you. Seems to me that you'r trying to overcomplicate something very simpe.



It would be kinda sad if this was too complex for you to understand. 

Since it takes me no time to get to you, but takes you time to realize I am not where you just had your eyes and am now right in front of or behind you, I have an opportunity to hit you. 



> Most likely



You are willing to concede that B's tentacle caught up to a flickering v2 A to make a point. 

Add another to the list PoW.



> Also do  you agree that Itachi can move and stirke with Susano'o faster than Nagato can from a coherent thought?



Er, no, as Nagato was busy doing other things and might not have heard. Obito was not, and he's one of the few characters that _consistently_ trolls attempted blindside attacks with no known counters to them other than hearing...



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito never expressed how fast Minato was.



LofuckingL.

That's okay.

Kishimoto's done that plenty of times and made sure to note it when Minato's Rasengan was in Obito's back.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> If reacting to Hirashin was impossible, as you claim it is, then why didn't Minato throw a kunai @ Obito's feet and smack him down with a rasengan like he was attempting to do with Madara ?



...because Minato needed to make sure Obito was solid before blitzing him with Rasengan.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yet he dashed forward and lunged straight through Izuna.
> 
> He used Hiraishin to close the distance between him and Izuna and utilized a Shunshin + Swift Lunge to strike him before Izuna could react. Unfortunately, we have no idea what happened in that fight other than that, so we have no idea if Tobirama placed a tag on him that Izuna didn't anticipate.
> 
> ...



u claiming he used shunshin is just that a claim and a baseless one. hirashingiri uses hirashin. kishi never claimed tobirama used shunshin to close the gap. nor do we know what kind of gap he closed

I could claim minato closed the gap when he attacked obito a second  time would be just as baseless

minato made contact with obito using just hirashin 

looool cuz icegaze reads the manga

minato can strike right after hirashin, so why wont tobirama be able to ? I can just claim minato used shunshin after his hirashin to get behind A 

hirashin giri makes no mention of shunshin 

stick to what kishi has told us


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's commonly accepted that Minato has some kind of awareness around the tags he warps to, which prevents him from warping himself into the ground or trees or halfway through an enemy, or into a flying weapon.  This compliments his ability to warp in just the general location around the tag, in different positions.
> 
> Similar to kuchiyose, which can be summoned mid-block.  You know, rather than summoning a froggy to get wtfpwned by the blade he didn't know was there and couldn't see to react to through the smoke puff.



lol it doesn't need to be accepted its obvious

minato is a sensor of course he will be able to tell whats around a location before he wraps to that location 

same way he knows where to send things after he has wraped them in his ST barrier 

never seen a hirashin user who isn't a sensor


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Why would I need to do that when I'm going to hit you before you take any.


You don't wanna end up like Minato against Madara. 
The moment Minato pops, he has to rely on his body speed. 



> It would be kinda sad if this was too complex for you to understand.
> 
> Since it takes me no time to get to you, but takes you time to realize I am not where you just had your eyes and am now right in front of or behind you, I have an opportunity to hit you.


If you appear behind me thats basically blindsiding.

If you appear infront of me, it won't be hard for me to register you and I can defend myself physicaly, if my body speed matches yours.
IF not, I can also defend myself if I have a jutsu I can activate with a thought. Strictly speaking for this match up, which Nagato has.



> You are willing to concede that B's tentacle caught up to a flickering v2 A to make a point.
> 
> Add another to the list PoW.


Just like you conceded that Itachi can move and strike with Susano'o faster than Nagato can form a coherent thought, just because you claim that there is no such thing as "blindsiding."



> Er, no, as Nagato was busy doing other things and might not have heard. Obito was not, and he's one of the few characters that _consistently_ trolls attempted blindside attacks with no known counters to them other than hearing...


Ugh excuses.
Itachi took out Nagato's vision but he didn't do anything about his hearing.



> LofuckingL.
> 
> That's okay.
> 
> Kishimoto's done that plenty of times and made sure to note it when Minato's Rasengan was in Obito's back.


I am not speaking in general. I am speaking strictly about that instance. When Obito got hit, he never expressed that Minato's speed alone was able to do that(because he already witnessed Minato use Hirashin). He was genuinely surprised and expressed his disbelief that he teleported to the Kunai that passed through him.



> ...because Minato needed to make sure Obito was solid before blitzing him with Rasengan.


So Obito would react ot a frontal attack, is that what you'r saying ?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

obito or nagato or most high level would react to a frontal attack if they had knowledge on said frontal attack 

nagato has none. and has no reason to be on the defensive because he sees what he thinks is a useless kunai next to him


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> >spine caved in
> 
> No, his spine was not caved in,


Rocky he was hunched over, bleeding, and clutching his arm in pain as it literally dripped off his body. It's very clear that no one is going to be on the top of their game after that. It doesn't matter if the Jutsu is seal-less or not. If someone beats the living fuck out off you, your reactions literally a few seconds after that are not going to be up to snuff. This is just very simple logic. 




> No, his spine was not caved in, and losing an arm isn't a game breaking injury for Obito


So apparently dealing with Fu is comparable to dealing with Minato while already FTG-marked.

All hail the mighty Fu 



> Obito may have been messed up a bit physically, but that doesn't tend to noticably impair the activation speed of seal-less jutsu. The best example is Itachi, who was heavily injured and basically dead, reacting to one of the fastest jutsu in the manga with Susano'o.





























How Did Itachi ever have time to activate Susano'o!?!!!?!??!!?

This is totally comparable to Minato attacking a second after Obito had his brain rattled by Rasengan!!!!!!!



> Like I said to Grimmjow, and? Obito was only surprised at this after Minato had made contact with him. Even if Obito knew Minato had him marked, he still needs a moment to realize that Minato's not where he was just standing.


Dude Minato has marks all over the place, so when Minato vanishes Obito is not going to be surprised at this point. What he's not going to expect is Minato reappear in his face because he doesn't know he is marked.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Is time in the Narutoverse dimension frozen while Tobirama walks to his marker in this FTG dimension?



 I don't know where I implied that, I simply implied his Hiraishin involves instantaneous dimensional travel, so if Tobirama's FTG Giri was completely based around Hiraishin, then he wouldn't have made contact with Izuna unless Izuna suddenly traveled to the same dimension Tobirama did.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> You come out of hiraishin mid-slash at your top speed.
> 
> Ever heard of ?  The frog comes crashing in as if it had the acceleration of a several hundred meter high dive, with the strength of the fall being based on the user's master of space/time jutsu (the kuchiyose).



 And here.

 Except Kuchiyose no jutsu does summon something from an entirely different dimension and what you presented is essentially a variant of that same jutsu. Hiraishin is simply the same thing, it warps anything to a certain destination as long as both beings are connected via chakra except the Kuchiyose uses a connection through blood instead. As Kuchiyose involves dimensional travel until the Summon reaches it's destination, I'd assume Hiraishin does the same thing, Tobirama/ Minato experiences instantaneous dimensional travel and reaches their own dimension once they complete their warp.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Here's the thing, nothing contradicts my interpretation because we've seen Obito react to comparable situations and even some that would require a quicker mental reaction. Which of course means your interpretation is being contradicted..
> 
> ...So really the only things inconsistent here is your assertion that he couldn't have activated Kamui in time in response to Minato's jump and arm follow through even if he had wanted to...
> 
> ...In contrast, my point on things like sound and sensing being ignored is one that we have seen numerous times and thus makes reasonable sense to view any time that it happens for what it's worth, which is basically nothing.



Me: "Minato was too fast for Obito's Kamui. Like, it was a battle of speed."

You: "Obito was fast enough. He could react to Jubidara. He just didn't know where Minato was, so he decided he didn't need Kamui."

Me: "Obito was stronger and thus probably faster. Even if he wasn't, Kishi can be inconsistent with speed."

You: "No reason to say inconsistency when you could think like me."

Me: "Okay, then if he was fast enough, why didn't Obito hear Minato hovering above him like he heard Gai and Kakashi multiple times?"

You: "Kishi can be inconsistent with that."














Yeah, your interpretation that Minato didn't win the battle of speed because of his speed is contradicted by absolutely nothing. Totally.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> 1
> 
> Except Kuchiyose no jutsu does summon something from an entirely different dimension and what you presented is essentially a variant of that same jutsu. Hiraishin is simply the same thing, it warps anything to a certain destination as long as both beings are connected via chakra except the Kuchiyose uses a connection through blood instead. As Kuchiyose involves dimensional travel until the Summon reaches it's destination, I'd assume Hiraishin does the same thing, Tobirama/ Minato experiences instantaneous dimensional travel and reaches their own dimension once they complete their warp.



Dude, Snakeland, Myoboku, and Humid Bone Forest are all in the same dimension.  They're just really far away from Konoha.  That's why Orochimaru was able to walk to snake land following the senjutsu trail with Juugo's clan.  The senjutsu those places put off doesn't cross dimensions.  Summons do hop across the space and time of that single dimension though, via teleport.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Edo Tensie does summon between dimensions, by pulling a soul from the Pure World to this Impure world of ours.  Do you think the soul goes from A to B, or from A to B to C, with B being some kind of intermediary dimension?


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Minato says it comes down to which attack is faster. I.E. Kamui warp vs FTG-Attack. If Kamui Warp was faster Minato would be in Box-Land, so whose attack was faster did indeed decide the match. That statement does not however mean Obito couldn't use his defensive Kamui in time to slip away from Minato's Rasengan, purely due to speed, as that was never once referenced in that statement.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

You too? You really think Obito couldn't find Minato and thought he was safe? Even though Obito has phased through countless attacks he couldn't see? People honestly think that the reason Minato hit Obito while he was tangible had nothing to do with speed?



Turrin said:


> If Kamui Warp was faster Minato would be in Box-Land, so whose attack was faster did indeed decide the match.



The implication is that Minato had to hit Obito while he was attempting the Kamui warp, because that is the only moment he is solid.

Somehow, people believe that Obito saw Minato vanish and saw his Kamui warp miss, but _decided to stay solid._

_Why_ would he do that.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Also it's not like I think people get stabbed in the middle of an FTG warp if that's what you think I think.  Otherwise you couldn't port out of a closed room.  My point is you can come out of FTG moving at a high speed, even if you weren't moving before, just like how frogs can be summoned with momentum, when they aren't normally falling off sky scrapers pre-summon.


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## Ryuzaki (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Minato says it comes down to which attack is faster. I.E. Kamui warp vs FTG-Attack. If Kamui Warp was faster Minato would be in Box-Land, so whose attack was faster did indeed decide the match. That statement does not however mean Obito couldn't use his defensive Kamui in time to slip away from Minato's Rasengan, purely due to speed, as that was never once referenced in that statement.



Yeah this is absolutely correct, Madara also stated that Obito needs to materialize before fading away or he materializes while fading away. If Obito had switched to defensive/transparency Kamui, Minato's attack would have gone through him as opposed to connecting


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

You know what I just realized.

Obito could have been intangible the entire time during that whole Jubi Mads scene.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The implication is that Minato had to hit Obito while he was attempting the Kamui warp, because that is the only moment he is solid.
> 
> Somehow, people believe that Obito saw Minato vanish and saw his Kamui warp miss, but _decided to stay solid._
> 
> _Why_ would he do that.


No the implication is that Minato needs to aim to hit Obito inside a specific window. That window being the time between when he becomes solid to attack Minato and before he becomes intangible again. That window is going to be as big or as small as Obito decides to make it, as Obito controls when he's going to become intangible again, vis-a-vis Obito needs a reason to become intangible again and Minato knows this. So he's aiming to strike before Obito realizes a needed to become intangible again.

As for why Obito did not become intangible after Minato vanished, that is very simply because he did not know Minato vanished to the Kunai behind him and was in the perfect position to attack him. So Obito had no compelling reason to immediately go intangible as fast as he could, until he was too late.

Hence the problem was not solely speed, but the fact that Obito didn't expect Minato to warp to the Kunai he had just thrown.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Me: "Minato was too fast for Obito's Kamui. Like, it was a battle of speed."
> 
> You: "Obito was fast enough. He could react to Jubidara. He just didn't know where Minato was, so he decided he didn't need Kamui."
> 
> ...


Effort: C

Substance: D -

Analysis: You can do much better 



Rocky said:


> You know what I just realized.
> 
> Obito could have been intangible the entire time during that whole Jubi Mads scene.


He needed to be tangible to extract the bijuu. If Madara had not felt Obito's arm in his chest then he wouldn't have been surprised/reminded when he attacked Obito that he could phase.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Btw, I wonder what matty thinks having unleashed this chaos since he doesn't seem interested in participating; which is fine, but must still be amusing to him.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No the implication is that Minato needs to aim to hit Obito inside a specific window. That window being the time between when he becomes solid to attack Minato and before he becomes intangible again. That window is going to be as big or as small as Obito decides to make it, as Obito controls when he's going to become intangible again, vis-a-vis Obito needs a reason to become intangible again and Minato knows this. So he's aiming to strike before Obito realizes a needed to become intangible again.



Minato believed he needed to trade hits with Obito. The reason for that is because the window that Obito is tangible is only there while Obito is attacking you, which is why Minato waited until Obito attacked him to jump and blitz.

If Minato jumps and Obito realizes it in time to use Kamui, he's not going to stay solid while he looks around for Minato. Why would he if his attack missed?



Turrin said:


> As for why Obito did not become intangible after Minato vanished, that is very simply because he did not know Minato vanished to the Kunai behind him and was in the perfect position to attack him. So Obito had no compelling reason to immediately go intangible as fast as he could, until he was too late.



I don't know exactly what you're getting at. If you mean that Obito didn't expect Minato to jump and in that "shit he's gone" moment Minato hit him, then sure, I'd agree.

If you mean that Obito didn't expect Minato to jump, but after the "shit he's gone moment" he looked around and couldn't find Minato so he decided to stay solid (for no reason whatsoever)...then I no longer agree.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Effort: C
> 
> Substance: D -
> 
> Analysis: You can do much better



You're aren't dumb, so if you're going to pull the lolKishi card, you know to expect it in return.



StickaStick said:


> He needed to be tangible to extract the bijuu. If Madara had not felt Obito's arm in his chest then he wouldn't have been surprised/reminded when he attacked Obito that he could phase.



Obito's arm remained connected to Madara's chakra even though Madara had his fist through Obito's face.

So his arm, somehow, didn't appear to be following the established laws of his Kamui. I think it was solid the entire time, regardless of wether or not Obito had intangibility activated.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> So basically Madara doesn't hear or sense BZ literally walking straight up to him to the point where he is right behind him and find that odd at all. It's not about being an alley; it's about having some basic common sense that if someone approaches you like that at the very least it's very odd and at the worst a sign that something bad is about to happen.





But, Madara thought BZ was an incarnation of his will.  A being existing only to serve and assist him.  Betrayal was completely impossible in his mind.  In the minds of anyone who didn't predict Madara would explode into a bunny girl.

If Naruto's shadow clone walked straight up behind to the point he could hug him, would Naruto find that odd?  Would Naruto find it odd if it was Kakashi?  Gamakichi?  



> Pirate, I really mean no offense but can you at least pretend to be objective here?



This isn't a biased reinterpretation of the scene to suit the counter-argument, this is what I thought I when I initially read the scene.  Right after I thought, "wat," and right before I laughed about the the Zetsu fanclub's monicker of, "The True Final Villain," having it's day.  I most certainly wasn't thinking about Minato's hiraishin or Obito's reactions, andmy psychic powers don't reach this far into the future.  Otherwise I would have quit reading Naruto sooner.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky, I clearly explained the difference between my "alleged" inconsistencies and yours and you gave me another lazy response that, of course, didn't address it, so if you're going to troll in response then I at might as well grade it.

Again, if Madara hasn't felt Obito's arm in his chest he wouldn't have attacked him. Obito being connected to Mads chakra is irrelevant.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> But, Madara thought BZ was an incarnation of his will.  A being existing only to serve and assist him.  Betrayal was completely impossible in his mind.  In the minds of anyone who didn't predict Madara would explode into a bunny girl.
> 
> If Naruto's shadow clone walked straight up behind to the point he could hug him, would Naruto find that odd?  Would Naruto find it odd if it was Kakashi?  Gamakichi?  This isn't a biased reinterpretation of the scene to suit the counter-argument, this is what I thought I when I initially read the scene.  Right after I thought, "wat," and right before I laughed about the the Zetsu fanclub's monicker of, "The True Final Villain," having it's day.  I most certainly wasn't thinking about Minato's hiraishin or Obito's reactions, andmy psychic powers don't reach this far into the future.  Otherwise I would have quit reading Naruto sooner.


Kakashi or Naruto's clone walking up to Naruto entering ass grabbing territory? Yes, I'd imagine he'd fined that strange.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Rocky, I clearly explained the difference between my "alleged" inconsistencies and yours and you gave me another lazy response that, of course, didn't address it.



There _is_ no difference. 

Jesus Christ, I don't know if you're actually just not smart enough to recognize a double standard, but claiming that the reason Obito didn't pass through Rasengan (despite passing though other attacks he couldn't see) is because Kishimoto didn't care to be consistent is _no different_ than me pegging Obito reacting to Madara as a speed inconsistency. 



StickaStick said:


> Again, if Madara hasn't felt Obito's arm in his chest he wouldn't have attacked him. Obito being connected to Mads chakra is irrelevant.



Can you read? I _just_ said his arm was solid the entire time, which is the only way it could have remained connected to Madara as opposed to being in the Kamui dimension, so Madara would have felt it.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

He didn't seem to care when Sakura walked up behind him.

There are possibly 100 other examples in the manga of allies not caring if allies walk up behind them.

As a show of good faith, I'll give you a better example.  For an egregious example of sound being ignored, you should cite the Naruto vs Kakuzu example, where he didn't notice the whirring of he rasen-shuriken behind him.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Minato believed he needed to trade hits with Obito. The reason for that is because the window that Obito is tangible is only there while Obito is attacking you, which is why Minato waited until Obito attacked him to jump and blitz.


Obito is not only tangible when he attacks you. He is tangible most of the time, it's just that someone does not know when he is or isn't tangible. In Minato's case he guessed that Obito would likely become tangible at that time, due to other factors. And aimed to hit him before he became intangible again.



> If Minato jumps and Obito realizes it in time to use Kamui, he's not going to stay solid while he looks around for Minato. Why would he if his attack missed?


I told you why already Rocky. There is no reason for Obito to know he needs to become tangible as fast as possible and waste chakra, if he's not aware he's in danger.



> If you mean that Obito didn't expect Minato to jump, but after the "shit he's gone moment" he looked around and couldn't find Minato so he decided to stay solid (for no reason whatsoever)...then I no longer agree.


No I'm saying that when Minato vanished he most likely expected Minato teleported far away like the first time Minato used Hiraishin to escape from his ST-Warp. So he did not know he was in danger and before he could realize, he was he was hit by Rasengan. Fuck he has a reason to stay tangible as he would want to stay solid in-order to use Kamui to teleport himself to chase after Minato as quickly as possible.

Simply put if Obito was on guard there he would have reacted in time, he's reacted to similar attacks before as others have shown in this thread and slower characters have reacted to Minato again as others have shown in this thread. However Obito was not on guard there, because he made the faulty assumption that he was safe.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

I still don't get why Obito would turn tangible if he thought his attack would fail.

I don't get why he makes the faulty assumption he was safe against reprisal, rather than the faulty assumption he just beat Minato.  

I don't get why Obito said he'd crank up the speed of with absorption to the point Minato can't hiraishin out of it, if he thought Minato would hiraishin out of it.


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

Obito doesn't have eyes on the back of his head, but he passes through Gai. [1]

Obito doesn't have eyes on the top of his head, but he passes through Gai again. [2]

Obito doesn't have eyes on his ears, yet he passes through the lighting kunai. [3]

...but when Obito fails to pass through Minato, the excuse is because Obito couldn't see him? _Really?_



> Obito is not only tangible when he attacks you. He is tangible most of the time



When he's in a fight, I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. He's intangible most of the time, and his solidifies to attack. That is why the "trading hits" thing was necessary.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

@Pirate, where do you see Sakura walking up to right behind Naruto's backside?



Rocky said:


> There _is_ no difference.
> 
> Jesus Christ, I don't know if you're actually just not smart enough to recognize a double standard, but claiming that the reason Obito didn't pass through Rasengan (despite passing though other attacks he couldn't see) is because Kishimoto didn't care to be consistent is _no different_ than me pegging Obito reacting to Madara as a speed inconsistency.


Then we're back to your insistence that Obito would have phased if he could, and not that he didn't suspect that Minato would teleport to that particular kunai like the manga blatantly tells us. With that taken into consideration, there are no inconsistencies on my part. 

Obito = can react to situations that require a comparable mental reaction speed; didn't react to Minato because he didn't think he would teleport to that kunai. 

No inconsistencies; no blatant disregarding of what the manga has told us.

Ninjas not taking advantage of sound, sensing, and other sensory stimulation = consistently shown.

Furthermore, you're grouping Obito's ability to mentally react with all other instances of seemingly inconsistent speed being demonstrated, which is a mistake. Because, for one, these other inconsistencies almost always are related to physical speed, not mental. And secondly, Obito's ability to mentally react outside of his purported inability to react to Minato has _consistency _shown him to be able to react to comparable and even greater attacks in terms of amount of time needed in order to convert.



> Can you read? I _just_ said his arm was solid the entire time, which is the only way it could have remained connected to Madara as opposed to being in the Kamui dimension, so Madara would have felt it.


Which is still wrong, If Obito's arm were solid then Mads would have chopped that off instead. It's more likely that the moment Mads jumps away (removing his hand from Obito's head) Obito turns tangible and re-establishes the chakra connection.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky, given the instances you've highlighted above that demonstrate Obito actually being able to react with Kamui intangibility in comparable situations, what is the reasoning for him not doing so against Minato? Even if you take the position that he was able to react in these other instancles despite a compromised LoS, that doesn't negate the fact that that shows he should be been able to do the same against Minato, but for some reason didn't. This tells me that he simply didn't care to activate his intangibility in response to Minato's jump because to him it came so out of left field; as opposed to these other instances where he knows he has to deal with threats coming from multiple angles so is more likely to stay on guard. Otherwise we literally have to assume that Kyuubi-Attack Obito is a dumbass and didn't active Kamui in time even though he knew he needed to and was capable of doing such a thing based on these other instances.

(Btw I know this post is kind of confusing but I hope you get what I'm trying to say here.)


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Middle panel Sticka.

This is a good one.

Here's another one. [2] [3] [4] [5]

Just a quick skim through the first part of the Forest of Death.  Examples vary in quality.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Obito doesn't have eyes on the back of his head, but he passes through Gai. [1]
> 
> Obito doesn't have eyes on the top of his head, but he passes through Gai again. [2]
> 
> ...



this sums up the bias on this thread

basically 

obito thought he was safe because minato jumped far away apparently despite that being a seriously foolish assumption 

but lets see no knowledge nagato would have figured out everything while obito with knowledge couldn't 

great posts to everyone


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## Rocky (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Obito = can react to situations that require a comparable mental reaction speed; didn't react to Minato because he didn't think he would teleport to that kunai.



The only situation [flashback] Obito shouldn't be able to handle is Madara's, as Madara is actually faster than Minato.



StickaStick said:


> Ninjas not taking advantage of sound, sensing, and other sensory stimulation = consistently shown.



Are you out of your mind?

Do you know what "consistently" means, or do I need to go get ten scans of shinobi reacting to attacks they didn't see?



StickaStick said:


> Furthermore, you're grouping Obito's ability to mentally react with all other instances of seemingly inconsistent speed being demonstrated, which is a mistake. Because, for one, these other inconsistencies almost always are related to physical speed, not mental.



There are definitely instances of guys not responding with jutsu when they should be capable.

I think you should also stop grouping mental & jutsu speed together. Even if a shinobi with an instant jutsu processes an attack, it doesn't mean he'll escape harm.



StickaStick said:


> It's more likely that the moment Mads jumps away (removing his hand from Obito's head) Obito turns tangible and re-establishes the chakra connection.



Madara jumps back without first reclaiming his arm, so if Obito tired doing that he'd likely end up solidifying with Madara's hand still inside his face.



StickaStick said:


> Rocky, given the instances you've highlighted above that demonstrate Obito actually being able to react with Kamui intangibility in comparable situations, what is the reasoning for him not doing so against Minato?



Because Minato, dubbed the "Yellow Flash" by the author, is faster than Gai or that kunai.

Yet some people like to think that Minato isn't fast unless he hides from you.


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Rocky, given the instances you've highlighted above that demonstrate Obito actually being able to react with Kamui intangibility in comparable situations, what is the reasoning for him not doing so against Minato? Even if you take the position that he was able to react in these other instancles despite a compromised LoS, that doesn't negate the fact that that shows he should be been able to do the same against Minato, but for some reason didn't. This tells me that he simply didn't care to activate his intangibility in response to Minato's jump because to him it came so out of left field; as opposed to these other instances where he knows he has to deal with threats coming from multiple angles so is more likely to stay on guard. Otherwise we literally have to assume that Kyuubi-Attack Obito is a dumbass and didn't active Kamui in time even though he knew he needed to and was capable of doing such a thing based on these other instances.
> 
> (Btw I know this post is kind of confusing but I hope you get what I'm trying to say here.)



or perhaps a non obito biased poster would simply say minato was able to strike quicker than obito could react 

since he didn't just vanish from obito LOS but attacked right after obito lost sight of him

just maybe that's what happened since obito has clearly and easily reacted to other attacks out of his LOS 

just saying this thingy going on about minato speed being anything short of impressive or ridiculous is hilarious 

I have heard countless times V2 A is so much faster than minato he crossed a huge distance before minato could flick a kunai 

well minato did the exact same thing to obito yet that's not mentioned

using shushin minato caught Naruto before obito could stab him 

if u can claim obito planned it, then I can claim minato planned to wait for the last moment to pull one on A 

which makes both feats invalid


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Rocky, given the instances you've highlighted above that demonstrate Obito actually being able to react with Kamui intangibility in comparable situations, what is the reasoning for him not doing so against Minato? Even if you take the position that he was able to react in these other instancles despite a compromised LoS, that doesn't negate the fact that that shows he should be been able to do the same against Minato, but for some reason didn't. This tells me that he simply didn't care to activate his intangibility in response to Minato's jump because to him it came so out of left field; as opposed to these other instances where he knows he has to deal with threats coming from multiple angles so is more likely to stay on guard. Otherwise we literally have to assume that Kyuubi-Attack Obito is a dumbass and didn't active Kamui in time even though he knew he needed to and was capable of doing such a thing based on these other instances.
> 
> (Btw I know this post is kind of confusing but I hope you get what I'm trying to say here.)



Alternatively, Obito couldn't activate his intangibility, because Minato was fast enough to exploit the gap.


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Obito doesn't have eyes on the back of his head, but he passes through Gai. [1]
> 
> Obito doesn't have eyes on the top of his head, but he passes through Gai again. [2]
> 
> ...


And I repeat it's a matter of being on guard, which does not extend only to seeing the enemy or not. Obito was on guard and ready to be attacked by multiple individuals in all of these instances you citing. In the case of Minato, I am a saying he was not on guard, because he did not expect to be attacked, because he did not think Minato teleported to the Kunai behind him.

So i'm not talking about a literal blindside i'm talking about a figurative one. 



> When he's in a fight, I'm pretty sure it's the other way around. He's intangible most of the time, and his solidifies to attack. That is why the "trading hits" thing was necessary.


The manga has shown countless times that Obito only sends to Box-World the parts that are being targeted by attacks. Meaning he is so reserved with his usage of the Jutsu that he doesn't even make his entire body intangible most of the time, but just the necessary parts to avoid an attack:
3
3
3
3
3

Plus that would just be a stupid waste of chakra. It's still a fucking MS Jutsu so even with Hashirama DNA, it's not something you want to use needlessly.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Alternatively, Obito couldn't activate his intangibility, because Minato was fast enough to exploit the gap.


I see so the argument is that Minato's physical attacks are faster than BM-Naruto's, cool.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> I see so the argument is that Minato's physical attacks are faster than BM-Naruto's, cool.



No just faster than Konan.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Middle panel Sticka.


What, this one?



If so, again I ask at what point is Sakura walking up to right behind Naruto's backside?



> This is a good one.
> 
> Here's another one. [2] [3] [4] [5]
> 
> Just a quick skim through the first part of the Forest of Death.  Examples vary in quality.


I'd honestly rather not have to point out the difference between what BZ did and these instances that you've highlighted here and create a separate conversation when the one we're having now is already time consuming enough. Unless you want to continue the matter then we'll agree to disagree and leave it at that.



Rocky said:


> The only situation [flashback] Obito shouldn't be able to handle is Madara's, as Madara is actually faster than Minato.


So you agree he should have been able to "handle" Minato?



> Are you out of your mind?
> 
> Do you know what "consistently" means, or do I need to go get ten scans of shinobi reacting to attacks they didn't see?


Consistency is not a one-way street. Both can be the case, as the manga as shown us. Ninjas have consistently reacted without stimulus and in other numerous instances have not despite having it on multiple fronts. My bringing up this point was merely to show that Juudara not being cognizant of BZ being right behind his backside is to show that these things happen. Contrast that to Obito's situation where the only time you could say his ability to mentally react was off was against Minato. And even that is easily explained anyway.



> There are definitely instances of guys not responding with jutsu when they should be capable.
> 
> I think you should also stop grouping mental & jutsu speed together. Even if a shinobi with an instant jutsu processes an attack, it doesn't mean he'll escape harm.


This is what makes Obito's situation unqiue; in that he's the only one outside of FTG users who can "escape" a bad situation with merely a mental thought. And as far as they're concerned they've been able to do so consistently. If you could find me comparable instances of individuals not reacting appropriately, then we'd get somewhere.



> Madara jumps back without first reclaiming his arm, so if Obito tired doing that he'd likely end up solidifying with Madara's hand still inside his face.


It appears to me Mads pull his hand back first before he jumps away, probably to improve his balance on his hop:



> Because Minato, dubbed the "Yellow Flash" by the author, is faster than Gai or that kunai.
> 
> Yet some people like to think that Minato isn't fast unless he hides from you.


Minato's strike speed is not faster than a Gated Gai, and both had an element of surprise on their side.

And FTR, no ones saying (at least I'm not) Minato isn't incredibly fast, even with his strike speed following a jump. However that doesn't mean he can't be reacted to, as others have shown.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Do you guys think the Rinnegan Obito isn't generally improved over the normal one that fought Minato and Konan?


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

In what manner(s), and to what degree(s)?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> If so, again I ask at what point is Sakura walking up to right behind Naruto's backside?



When she walks up behind him.  I just went back five pages and grabbed the nearest walked up behind allies picture.  It's nit-picky to say she has to be walking directly behind them. But here.

Here.

Here.

Foot steps.  Ally coming right behind.  She actually bowls him over. Jiraiya thinks nothing of it until he's struck.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> In what manner(s), and to what degree(s)?



What do you think?


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## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you guys think the Rinnegan Obito isn't generally improved over the normal one that fought Minato and Konan?


If Kishi intended Fans to come away with the impression that Obito's reaction time differs between incarnation, than Minato's feat becomes meaningless anyway. I mean who the fuck cares if he blitz'd Obito or not, at that point, as Obito's reaction time may be closer to his 3 in speed from Gaiden, than the top notch reactions he showed in current time-line. 

What I do think is different though is Obito's experience and knowledge, hence explaining why he would make a rookie mistake like forgetting about the FTG Kunai Minato threw behind him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Do you guys think the Rinnegan Obito isn't generally improved over the normal one that fought Minato and Konan?



I think so but I can't point out how or a specific area that improved upon.

He was simply portrayed on a higher level with the Rinnegan and shit. 
Obito that fought Konan and Minato was clumsier and was more of a onetrick pony.  War arc Obito was a better fighter.

It might just be power inflation.


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> When she walks up behind him.  I just went back five pages and grabbed the nearest walked up behind allies picture.  It's nit-picky to say she has to be walking directly behind them.


Not nit-picky at all. They're two entirely different manners to walking up to someone. If my homie is behind him and I hear him walking towards my side, as Sakura does here, then I wouldn't find that strange at all. If, however, I hear him walking directly behind me and it gets to the point where they're right at my backside, I'm probably going to turn around and be like "what are you up to".



> But here.
> 
> Here.
> 
> ...


You think Tsunade dashing at Jiraiya from an already very short distance (much shorter than where BZ was compared to Juudara) has something to do with it?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> What do you think?


I think you're trying to do the same thing Rocky did earlier and assert that Obito could react to Juudara's vastly superior strike speed as opposed to Minato's because he could "think" faster. And no, that's simply ridiculous.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> If Kishi intended...



If Kishi intended fans to come away from the Minato flashbacks with the idea that Minato was slow, then Minato's character is meaningless.

Did anyone reading those chapter on release look at what Minato did and think, "Gosh, that guy is slow."?


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## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> And I repeat it's a matter of being on guard, which does not extend only to seeing the enemy or not. Obito was on guard and ready to be attacked by multiple individuals in all of these instances you citing. In the case of Minato, I am a saying he was not on guard, because he did not expect to be attacked, because he did not think Minato teleported to the Kunai behind him.
> 
> So i'm not talking about a literal blindside i'm talking about a figurative one.
> 
> ...



I don't see why hirashin+minato follow up attack would be slower than BM Naruto attack. 

any reason at all to believe that?

hirashin+Sm Naruto attack could blindside juubito 

BSM Naruto on drugs could never get behind juubito without juubito smacking him if Naruto attempted to use speed


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Actually before I knew Tobi was Obito and was fairly young @that point, I was really impressed by how Minato prison raped him without too much difficulty.

It still is impressive but not as much as before. 

Obito could have lost to people weaker than Minato with that kind of mistake prone mindset and overall cockyness and stupidity.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

stickastcik 
obito still needs to active the jutsu it takes more than just thought process 

the obito that avoided juudara strike is clearly above any non juubi version of obito. the obvious So6p powers he still had would have improved his ability to execute jutsu  and react faster

naturally


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## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

The activation of the jutsu _is _a thought. Same thing as FTG.

An Obito who is literally on his death bed and exhausted is stronger than the one who fought Minato. Sure. And again, you're using the whole he thought faster defense to make up for a speed gap that is massive. Shit. Ain't. Cuttin'. It.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Dude, Snakeland, Myoboku, and Humid Bone Forest are all in the same dimension.  They're just really far away from Konoha.  That's why Orochimaru was able to walk to snake land following the senjutsu trail with Juugo's clan.  The senjutsu those places put off doesn't cross dimensions.  Summons do hop across the space and time of that single dimension though, via teleport.



 Wow, that was a shitty example I presented as I forgot those spaces were a very vast distance from Konoha which I forgot to consider when taking into consideration of Karin's inability to sense Sasuke. However, Sasuke only mentioned Manda suffering from the brunt of the explosion prior to actually "flying" using his Space-Time Ninjutsu. How did Sasuke avoid being engulfed by the explosion if it didn't involve some sort of dimensional travel?

 Furthermore, why was Kakashi's "sensing" rendered useless when he attempted to follow Sasuke's scent away from the site of the explosion? It's because he warped through a dimensional void. If that weren't the case, the scent would've remained intact plain and simple.

 But still, I did request a Databook entry on S/T ninjutsu from Turrin, so hopefully things will be cleared up.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If Kishi intended fans to come away from the Minato flashbacks with the idea that Minato was slow, then Minato's character is meaningless.
> 
> Did anyone reading those chapter on release look at what Minato did and think, "Gosh, that guy is slow."?



No one is arguing Minato is slow, so that's a fucking troll and half on your part.



NarutoX28 said:


> But still, I did request a Databook entry on S/T ninjutsu from Turrin, so hopefully things will be cleared up.


My Data-book is not on me right now, but it says something along the lines of when someone users a space time ninjutsu they move through subspace to a specific marking. 

So whoever is arguing that Minato doesn't move through another dimension to teleport is wrong.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Also it's not like I think people get stabbed in the middle of an FTG warp if that's what you think I think.



 All right, that clears up some confusion.



> Otherwise you couldn't port out of a closed room.  My point is you can come out of FTG moving at a high speed, even if you weren't moving before, just like how frogs can be summoned with momentum, when they aren't normally falling off sky scrapers pre-summon.



 Those frogs attain their momentum through gravity though. Tobirama's Hiraishin-Giri doesn't rely on that. You claim he comes out of Hiraishin at top speed, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he uses Shunshin to maximize his momentum?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> The activation of the jutsu _is _a thought. Same thing as FTG.
> 
> An Obito who is literally on his death bed and exhausted is stronger than the one who fought Minato. Sure. And again, you're using the whole he thought faster defense to make up for a speed gap that is massive. Shit. Ain't. Cuttin'. It.



so u want to ignore the whole gathering chakra to perform jutsu aspect then? why 

 the obito who still had So6P powers and stole a part of ichibi and hachibi yes would be clearly and I mean clearly above any non juubi version of obito 

I never said he thought faster that's YOUR exclusive BS

he can use jutsu quicker cuz he can gather chakra quicker and simply has better quality chakra

no jutsu can be used without gathering chakra for the jutsu. its not some its a thought thing that's bS

or can claim so long as itachi can think nothing can hit him. since he can activate susanoo with a thought. while ignoring he obviously needs chakra for the jutsu


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> All right, that clears up some confusion.
> 
> 
> 
> Those frogs attain their momentum through gravity though. Tobirama's Hiraishin-Giri doesn't rely on that. You claim he comes out of Hiraishin at top speed, so wouldn't it be reasonable to assume he uses Shunshin to maximize his momentum?



so why does the FCD rely on gravity but FTG wouldn't ?

you throw an object at someone eventually would be affected by gravity. minato or tobirama appearing at that location would be immediately affected by gravity when swinging especially when they are above the enemy 

minato fell on obito with his rasengan more than anything and tobirama attempted to do the same to Sm madara

there is no separate dimension when using hirashin btw. unless u can show scans

you can ask turrin for DB translation or something since he seems to be claiming there is a dimension when using hirashin that kishi never bothered to show despite showing hirashin used over 10 times in the manga


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No one is arguing Minato is slow, so that's a fucking troll and half on your part.
> 
> 
> My Data-book is not on me right now, but it says something along the lines of when someone users a space time ninjutsu they move through subspace to a specific marking.
> ...



 All right, thanks for clearing up my confusion. I thought I was stupid to think that Hiraishin involved movement through another dimension. I sometimes do believe they argue with me for the sake of arguing.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Icegaze, pardon me if I decide not to humor you.



your concession is accepted

obito can use kamui without gathering chakra for it. love the stickastick logic


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so why does the FCD rely on gravity but FTG wouldn't ?



 Because FCD literally drops a Boss Summon on top of it's target and it's momentum is dependant on the mass of the Summon and the Acceleration of Gravity which affects the Velocity of the Summon.

 Tobirama's Hiraishin-Giri doesn't involve him dropping from a tag to strike his opponent. Every instance he's been shown using it had him lunging at his opponent in a horizontal motion, not a vertical motion, therefore, it's not dependant on gravity like FCD is.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rocky does that all the time and I'm fairly certain POW is just trolling because usually she is a much more fair poster and is acting OOC incredibly bias here



 Yeah, I was assuming that PoW was at least trolling with me, but hey, a debate's a debate and I can't deny that she does provide good evidence. After all, Strategoob is known for his bias for Itachi yet he presents some of the most compelling cases for Itachi that it's simply too difficult to refute.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Wouldn't Obito's capabilities drastically increase with one Rinnegan considering the Doujutsu's insanely powerful chakra?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wouldn't Obito's capabilities drastically increase with one Rinnegan considering the Doujutsu's insanely powerful chakra?



 Not sure, but I doubt it matters all that much. Phasing seems somewhat instantaneous IMO, so it should really be heavily dependant on how quicly one can perceive one's speed and form a thought based on what's happening.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because FCD literally drops a Boss Summon on top of it's target and it's momentum is dependant on the mass of the Summon and the Acceleration of Gravity which affects the Velocity of the Summon.
> 
> Tobirama's Hiraishin-Giri doesn't involve him dropping from a tag to strike his opponent. Every instance he's been shown using it had him lunging at his opponent in a horizontal motion, not a vertical motion, therefore, it's not dependant on gravity like FCD is.




kishi could have simply shown us tobirama lunge attack because tobirama strike speed wasn't enough to hit Sm madara

minato basically does a kunai lunge at obito, yet no speed lines or anything are indicated. 

I think those speed lines are actually a result of tobirama missing his attack. if you look closely you will get what I mean. if you lunge at someone and hit air, the force of ur attack will carry you abit. that's all that happened there no shunshin 

so yes FTG giri doesn't rely on gravity, nor does it on shunshin.

note: when tobirama appears in panel 1 no speed lines per say 

binding

yet by the second panel where we see him miss his attack therefore continue his motion since he obviously just hit air. we see speed lines.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Yeah, I was assuming that PoW was at least trolling with me, but hey, a debate's a debate and I can't deny that she does provide good evidence. After all, Strategoob is known for his bias for Itachi* yet he presents some of the most compelling cases for Itachi that it's simply too difficult to refute*.


Sorry I stopped at the bold. I've never seen Stragoob present anything compelling ever



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Wouldn't Obito's capabilities drastically increase with one Rinnegan considering the Doujutsu's insanely powerful chakra?


I don't see any indication that the Rinnegan makes anyone move faster.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sorry I stopped at the bold. I've never seen Stragoob present anything compelling ever



 Really? Well, he's convinced me multiple times. But hey, we all have our own opinions.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Not sure, but I doubt it matters all that much. Phasing seems somewhat instantaneous IMO, so it should really be heavily dependant on how quicly one can perceive one's speed and form a thought based on what's happening.



MS chakra is stronger than Sharingan chakra, and stronger chakra would improve Doujutsu capabilities. 

Kamui is perfect with the Sharingan in that the moment any threatening things are caught in the Sharingan's precognition, Obito can just activate Kamui at will.
Normally the Sharingan's precognition (or the enhanced version from higher chakra sources like MS, EMS and Rinnegan) is useless if the user can't react to the foe... not in Kamui's case.

As for how Obito was able to perceive certain attacks... you can argue that Obito has sensing capabilities. Or assume he's got sharp senses.

Of course... I'm not entirely sure how this links to Nagato vs Minato.


----------



## Sans (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sorry I stopped at the bold. I've never seen Stragoob present anything compelling ever



Dude, now you're being biased. He's regularly won recognition for being one of the best debaters on this section. If he's _never_ said anything that's "compelling" even if it hasn't changed your position...


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I don't see any indication that the Rinnegan makes anyone move faster.



I'm going under the assumption that stronger chakra grants superior qualities. If we go with that, then Obito's seeming jump in movement capability can be attributed to that. Or the Rinnegan chakra just supercharged his MS-Hashi cells precognition.



Komnenos said:


> Dude, now you're being biased. He's regularly won recognition for being one of the best debaters on this section. If he's _never_ said anything that's "compelling" even if it hasn't changed your position...



Depends on whose active in the relevant sections and for how long.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

well if turrin says someone post isn't good then it must be true  

Strat please do not mind such stupid comments being made

@Munboy frankly why it relates to nagato for me at least is obito with a jutsu which he can activate as quickly as ST, still didn't help him not be trolled by minato despite having knowledge 

yet a no knowledge nagato is supposed to be able to counter perfectly?

btw I bring up ST cuz nagato doesn't have a quicker or better defence or offense


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'm going under the assumption that stronger chakra grants superior qualities. If we go with that, then Obito's seeming jump in movement capability can be attributed to that. Or the Rinnegan chakra just supercharged his MS-Hashi cells precognition.


According to Tobirama the special chakra is in the person's brain not the Dojutsu. The Dojutsu simply forms as a result of that. So I do not think implanting a Dojutsu grants someone a large amount of that special chakra, rather it probably just grants them a bit and no I doubt that is enough for someone's physical ability to rise. Plus Obito even back when he just had MS had insane reaction feats like reacting to Konan's Explosive Tags, Ei's attack, and so on. So this is nothing new to the Rinnegan.



Komnenos said:


> Dude, now you're being biased. He's regularly won recognition for being one of the best debaters on this section. If he's _never_ said anything that's "compelling" even if it hasn't changed your position...


A debate is not solely based on content it can also be based on how you say it. Like I said before Strategoob is really skilled at selling people a pile of dogshit, but it's still a pile of dogshit. And that's a compliment because it speaks towards his verbal and writings skills being persuasive. But ultimately I've never seen the guy argue a point [talking about his overall points] in a way that I would consider compelling because it's always ridiculous shit like Haku being stronger than Kakashi. If you think differently, that's up to you, but I just think he intentionally tries to argue super unrealistic points, that he doesn't actually believe, simply to test his skills in argumentation and I don't find it compelling, because he picks too far out points.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Petty sure you've never seen anyone present anything compelling about Itachi.


Sadly, from Itachi-fans, this is not far off from the mark. I have more fingers than the amount of Itachi-fans I've seen who can actually discuss Itachi in a non bias enough fashion to make credible points. But it's not my fault that your fandom on average chooses to troll most of the time.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> your concession is accepted
> 
> obito can use kamui without gathering chakra for it. love the stickastick logic


Nope, just not interested in engaging in conversation with individuals with poor etiquette as it pertains to an online forum and who argue just to argue.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sorry I stopped at the bold. I've never seen Stragoob present anything compelling ever



Petty sure you've never seen anyone present anything compelling about Itachi.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Nope, just not interested in engaging in conversation with individuals with poor etiquette as it pertains to an online forum and who argue just to argue.



sounds like a  concession 
accepted none the less

to you the great poster who believes all it takes to use kamui is obito to think about it 



ps: when you start making up shit about my etiquette towards you despite my being polite you know you don't have even slightly a point....hop away buddy


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Munboy frankly why it relates to nagato for me at least is obito with a jutsu which he can activate as quickly as ST, still didn't help him not be trolled by minato despite having knowledge



It trolled Minato though. The only thing is Kamui was a defensive jutsu, which Minato fell for, not an offensive one.



> yet a no knowledge nagato is supposed to be able to counter perfectly?



A no-knowledge Minato is supposed to be able to perfectly counter Shinra Tensei?



> btw I bring up ST cuz nagato doesn't have a quicker or better defence or offense



And Minato has no way of anticipating it. This is a jutsu even harder to predict than Kamui. Minato won because he knew he'd have to use a well timed counter attack to win... i.e. he'd have to force Obito to solidify.

In Nagato's case it can be even more random. Shinra Tensei can come in at any time Nagato wants, the force can be as much as Nagato wants... it isn't going to be predicted easily. The databook even said it is a jutsu which can always catch the opponent off guard.



Turrin said:


> According to Tobirama the special chakra is in the person's brain not the Dojutsu. The Dojutsu simply forms as a result of that. So I do not think implanting a Dojutsu grants someone a large amount of that special chakra, rather it probably just grants them a bit and no I doubt that is enough for someone's physical ability to rise. Plus Obito even back when he just had MS had insane reaction feats like reacting to Konan's Explosive Tags, Ei's attack, and so on. So this is nothing new to the Rinnegan.



Though didn't Obito mention he had trouble, initially, controlling the Rinnegan's chakra? It could be that the Doujutsu can have special chakra which causes the relevant brain activity.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Petty sure you've never seen anyone present anything compelling about Itachi.



Distorting context is compelling?


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> ps: when you start making up shit about my etiquette towards you despite my being polite you know you don't have even slightly a point....hop away buddy


Literally your first response to me ITT:



Icegaze said:


> or perhaps a non obito biased poster would simply say minato was able to strike quicker than obito could react



So yeah, not interested.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Though didn't Obito mention he had trouble, initially, controlling the Rinnegan's chakra? It could be that the Doujutsu can have special chakra which causes the relevant brain activity.


When did he mention that?


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 23, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Literally your first response to me ITT:
> 
> 
> 
> So yeah, not interested.



and that's rude?
I said perhaps a non biased poster would say?

if u got offended sorry, chin up 

wasn't even a jab. was just saying it could be interpreted differently. if that's all it takes to get you to turn tail and run then ok. 

fact is too many excuses have been made as to why obito getting hit by minato attack isn't about the speed of minato  attack 

despite kishi having minato say it was a battle of speed


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> When did he mention that?



binding

You can also argue that the chakra becomes stronger when both eyes are within one source... especially when they're with the original user's chakra signature.

How it links here? Maybe Obito's qualities did get better due to the Rinnegan. 

How this links to Nagato vs Minato, I'm still wondering.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> binding
> 
> You can also argue that the chakra becomes stronger when both eyes are within one source... especially when they're with the original user's chakra signature.
> 
> ...



I'd have to take a look at the translation, but if transplanting Rinnegan really does give someone overwhelmingly huge and powerful chakra, than that would change a-lot of things potentially.

So I'll re-translate and get back to you.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> I'd have to take a look at the translation, but if transplanting Rinnegan really does give someone overwhelmingly huge and powerful chakra, than that would change a-lot of things potentially.
> 
> So I'll re-translate and get back to you.



 It's possible. After all, one of the components of Madara's Rinnegan is Asura Chakra and Hashirama's Cells is implied to have a notable impact on even Danzo's Dojutsu capabilities, so it's possible that the person can attack a notably higher quality of chakra from the Rinnegan.

 But that's simply a guess on my part now that I'm actually pondering about this.


----------



## StickaStick (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> As for how Obito was able to perceive certain attacks... you can argue that Obito has sensing capabilities. Or assume he's got sharp senses.
> 
> Of course... I'm not entirely sure how this links to Nagato vs Minato.


Well, we know he marks certain areas which is likely what tells him once he's in his dimension where exactly to pop out to in order to get to where he wants. I suppose it's possible that if he's already aware of an individuals chakra signature then he could trace them if they're in one of his marked areas. Would be really the only explanation for why he can target and locate individuals as quickly as he can even when they move to completely different areas. In fact, this seems to be just what he suggests when searching for Sasuke.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> binding
> .


Obito, "Even I could not transplant Rinnegan in both eyes......"

Obito, "Because of just this left eye alone...I nearly lost myself to it's excessively powerful chakra and douryoku [ocular power] "


The raw text does not say Rinnegan came with an huge amount of chakra, just that it had excessively strong chakra and ocular power. Considering there are other instances in the manga where an Uchiha's chakra is referenced as special, despite said Uchiha not possessing enough chakra where their physical abilities are greatly effected and the fact that the origin of said special chakra is suppose to be the brain. I think were talking about an issue of quality versus quantity. The Rinnegan only has some chakra left, but that chakra is of exceptional quality. This also explains why the eyes going back to the owner makes a difference, since the owner has the chakra in their brain to fuel the eyes much more so than those who have simply transplanted. Hence the difference in scale between Madara's Rinnegan techniques and Nagato/Obito's.

So yeah I don't think Rinnegan is giving anyone super human physical abilities, besides it's perception enhancements.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Sasuke magically went from slower than Bee and Itachi, to running with KCM Naruto, KCM Minato, and Tobirama, by walking from Kabuto cave to the Madara battlefield.  The only reasonable explanation is him adapting to the EMS, or, Uchiha eyeball hatred chakra.

The manga itself kind of went that way.  So I wouldn't be surprised if Obito got a general boost from Rinnegan, to compliment his power inflation.  He was running with Hashicells and Madara juice.  Madara also experienced dramatic boosts in power with increases in eyeballs, and Sasuke's Rinnegan also seemed to give him a physical boost on par with Naruto, even though there should have been a cap on what you can perform with simple increases in perception...a point that was harped on in Part I by Lee, and reared it's head against Ei and Bee in their fights with Sasuke.


----------



## Empathy (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sasuke magically went from slower than Bee and Itachi, to running with KCM Naruto, KCM Minato, and Tobirama, by walking from Kabuto cave to the Madara battlefield.



Can I get some specific examples of the latter, please?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

I should mention that's something I'm not happy with about the manga, and the direction it chose to go.


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

The only way Rinnegan could increase speed is if it gives access to the enhanced perception of the Choko or Whatever Tome and we assume Madara also has a Choko or Whatever Tome.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Sasuke magically went from slower than Bee and Itachi, to running with KCM Naruto, KCM Minato, and Tobirama, by walking from Kabuto cave to the Madara battlefield.  The only reasonable explanation is him adapting to the EMS, or, Uchiha eyeball hatred chakra.



I don't think you should take it that way. They were fighting together, so they had to use teamwork
as best as they could. Just like how KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi were fighting together. That does
not mean that they are all at the same speed. 

Same with the Gokage fight with madara for example. Mei couldn't use her Acid, nor did Gaara
use his huge waves of sands. The reason for that is because it will interfere with the other's abilities
and chances are they are not going to help well in term of the team work they are trying to do...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Can I get some specific examples of the latter, please?




immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

Sasuke puts up Susano as Minato is trying to jump, this one is hard to see with the white out.

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

Sasuke proclaims he can keep up.
immediately behind the sternum, close to the right ventricle

That's the start of it.  I don't believe that the Sasuke who had to be helped by Itachi during the Kabuto fight, or the one whose sharingan couldn't keep up with Ei's speed or Bee's sword dancing could have meaningfully covered and contributed to these efforts, and the feats gets crazier as the battle goes into that big blank spot in my memory I keep sealed.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't think you should take it that way. They were fighting together, so they had to use teamwork
> as best as they could. Just like how KCM Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi were fighting together. That does
> not mean that they are all at the same speed.
> 
> ...



I believe you have to be relatively comparable to effectively team with someone.  Otherwise you're a liability.  That's why Kakashi told his genin to stay back vs Zabuza, and let him handle it, but was able to tell Naruto and Sakura to assist him in the fight with Shoten Itachi.  They weren't Kakashi level, but they were upper chunin within the range needed to be assets, and unlike their genin selves, they could perceive and respond to the action.

Minato, Tobirama, and KCM Naruto were at the point where their speed, and actions appeared as flickers and flashes to actually good ninja, and attacks that push them to the brink of their reactions would earn people below their general level the Hiruzen treatment.


----------



## Trojan (Jun 23, 2015)

- Perhaps, but the example you gave was clearly with the characters not really using their full speed. For example, Naruto when he uses his full speed Kishi makes it obvious that he did. Like when he stopped Obito and Madara's attack to Kakashi and Gai, or when he outpaced A, or when he stopped the 5 TBBs....etc

It's just like how Onoki and Gaara helped Narudo's clone against Mu, or the other fodder's help to Naruto against the 3rd Raikage. Obviously they were not as fast as Naruto, and you can't say that Kumo's fodder with the magma element is as fast or comparable to Naruto and A, can you?

The same with Sasuke's assumption. He clearly has not idea about how powerful or fast BM Naruto is, so his statement does not mean anything. As such, he was angry and jealous of how far Narudo comes when he saw him controlling all that chakra, no? 


Another example. Sakura helped MUCH more/better than Sasuke in the battle against Kaguya, and yet no one
says she is on their level, no? 



> Minato, Tobirama, and KCM Naruto were at the point where their speed, and actions appeared as flickers and flashes to actually good ninja, and attacks that push them to the brink of their reactions would earn people below their general level the Hiruzen treatment.


Just before that happened, Tobirama was completely annihilated, no?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No one is arguing Minato is slow, so that's a fucking troll and half on your part.
> 
> 
> My Data-book is not on me right now, but it says something along the lines of when someone users a space time ninjutsu they move through subspace to a specific marking.
> ...



My  is on me.  It specifically says time/space, and not sub-space.  Moving across Time/space is crossing time and space.  Moving through sub-space is dropping to a different dimension and coming back into regular space.

*"Flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant!!"
Yondaime Hokage's jutsu, the reason for his alias "Yellow Flash"! His high-speed
movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement".*


----------



## Turrin (Jun 23, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My  is on me.  It specifically says time/space, and not sub-space.  Moving across Time/space is crossing time and space.  Moving through sub-space is dropping to a different dimension and coming back into regular space.
> 
> *"Flight across space and time completed in a flash-like instant!!"
> Yondaime Hokage's jutsu, the reason for his alias "Yellow Flash"! His high-speed
> movement over long distances...it is really "space-time movement".*


Now kindly read DBIII Glossary definition of Space-time Jutsu

And subspace can allow someone to travel through space and time if the author says it works that way. 

So wrong again POW.

I believe in that day, when you'll finally be right, but it just never comes.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 23, 2015)

> Just before that happened, Tobirama was completely annihilated, no?



I don't actually know how this can be interpreted in a way that doesn't bolster my point.

Sasuke went from jr speedster squad to covering and blocking attacks the the premier speedsters had trouble reacting to.  If Tobirama needs to trade blows against Jubito to tag him, what would this Sasuke be able to do?  Dude needs Itachi to cover for him.  Later he's covering for Minato, KCM Naruto, and Tobirama.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It trolled Minato though. The only thing is Kamui was a defensive jutsu, which Minato fell for, not an offensive one.



scans of it trolling minato please
i never saw such? wooden glasses? 

obito attempted kamui after a sneak attack and failed. then got beat up

@Everyone in the manga the rasengan minato used on obito wasnt even an actual physical strike. using FTG to get above someone means you will fall on the person. minato fell on obito with his rasengan intentionally but he did. now considering accelaration due to gravity and the distance he appeared above obito. minato would have struck him dam near instantly by falling on him. 

obito has simply never dealt with anything that fast and it simply hurts people to admit

to even show minato fell on him vs swinging down on him with rasengan, no panels are shown of him swinging down and minato hit obito arm. why target someone arm when tryign to kill him

to give you a rough idea. imagine minato appear 1 cm above him while accelarating at 9.8m/s^2 . factor in obito is reacting as he didnt expect minato to vanish and you would see it ridiculous to think obito could ever have done anything but be hit


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## Hasan (Jun 24, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Dust clouds were used in part one for shunshin multiple times. And no, dust clouds were shown with hiraishin twice max out of a possible 30 times. So how can you say usually? Next you will tell me that this was hiraishin too right:
> |||||||||||
> ^Shunshin/High Speed Movement symbol|||||||||||||||||||||^Hiraishin/Instant Teleporation (Sasukes Amenojikra uses this symbol as well)
> 
> ...



More for your cravings: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.

... and I am pretty sure I said "often" — acknowledging that there are instances, where the effect is not used, even for Kuchiyose no Jutsu. Also, referring to these two instances [1a, 1b, 2], the same SFX is used with Hiraishin. 



> Go and read e databook 2 again before jumping to conclusions. That panel is used to show minato marking the rock ninjas foot/applying the jutsu shiki to the opponent. It even draws an arrow so that even a child can understand. However i guess that didnt work since you and multiple others have made he same mistake.nsays in the text minato applies a jutsu shiki to the emmies foot, then draws an arrow pointing to minato doing this, yet you somehow missed that lol.



Text labels are just small descriptions of panels that depict a particular jutsu *in action*. This is true for all other jutsu entries as well. But— I am supposed to believe that this full page, scaled down to accomodate almost half the space allotted for Hiraishin no Jutsu... is not Hiraishin no Jutsu? Yeah, no. 




> Not when yamato and bee said it, it was clearly shunshin. Because minato was always good at shunshin. We know that from obitos statemements and because of what yamato said, saying naruto isnt on minatos level yet. Are you telling me shunshin can reach instantaneous transportation level? Clearly kishi makes parallel comparsions between narutos shunshin and minatod, i thought these 2 scans made it obvious:
> this full page
> this full page - notice obitos yellow flash comments as well, about the yellow flash. Unkess you think this was hiraishin too.



That is not a parallel... _This_ is a parallel... and clearly seems to compare Naruto's Kyuubi Mode speed with Minato's Hiraishin.



> Anyone who can read knows when kishi is referrring to shunshin and when hes referring to hiraishin. He makes it clear as day.



I pointed to three other instances beside the one with Rin, where Shunshin is used to refer to Hiraishin. There is a fourth one, heh.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2015)

I am all down for EMS making Sasuke faster.

That hypes Itachi's speed further as he was faster than EMS Sauce


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Hasan said:


> More for your cravings: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6.
> 
> ... and I am pretty sure I said "often" ? acknowledging that there are instances, where the effect is not used, even for Kuchiyose no Jutsu. Also, referring to these two instances [1a, 1b, 2], the same SFX is used with Hiraishin.
> 
> ...



decent post. you and Rasen really got time. imma rep you

am not down for panel squinting and what not truth is regardless of if one is to claim minato has never used shunshin in actual combat or not fact is the guy has hirashin and will use that instead is is hailed as the fastest therefore as far as any battle goes he will pull off a hirashin it cant be helped no one can stop minato from pulling off hirashin 

btw: he did use shunshin to catch naruto when obito was going to stab him. and possibly used it to get to bunta who he summoned above kyuubi. 

not that it matters. the distinction of oh minato used hirashin here or there is mostly irrelevant and sounds bitter

sort of like assuming A is trying to kill someone he knows he needs to do is best against and people goign on nitpicking oh no that was V2 speed oh no that was V1 speed. or the worst ive heard is cloaked A wasnt using shunshin


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am all down for EMS making Sasuke faster.
> 
> That hypes Itachi's speed further as he was faster than EMS Sauce



Well, I think that Sasuke adjusted to his new eyes over time.  The speed difference I saw between them in the Kabuto fight is what I'd expect from a 4.5 person next to a 5.0 person with greater experience.  (Precog being equal.)  Similar to how it took him the Kaguya fight to get used to his rinnegan.  

But yeah, if you assume Sasuke got a general boost to his speed along with his stamina and assorted generalities that rose over time, then he checks out.  Both in the war arc, and for all the MS jutsu he spammed after losing Orochimaru's rich chakra, and his juin amplifier, which logically should have left him less chakra during the summit arc.  

Minato and Konan exploiting the gap makes sense as well, if you assume that Obito got a general boost from the Rinnegan's overwhelming but unspecified chakra power after those fights.  Those eyes did contain Madara's chakra, which is trans-migrant strong as Indra's descendant, and trans-migrant chakra also tends to act differently than normal chakra.  That might mean that the Minato who fought Obito wouldn't be able to so easily exploit the opening in kamui against rinnegan Obito, in which case everyone is happy.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

but rinnegan obito is already marked POW

in which case rinnegan or not minato still wins with the same lack of difficulty


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

That man tried to kill mi newborn son, my wife, can control Kyuubi, threatens my village, says is Uchiha Madara?

Nope. Not gonna try to kill him like i killed some random fodder slashing his throat for the lulz.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> That man tried to kill mi newborn son, my wife, can control Kyuubi, threatens my village, says is Uchiha Madara?
> 
> Nope. Not gonna try to kill him like i killed some random fodder slashing his throat for the lulz.



i dont get what this refers to 
can you explain

i noticed minato does some fairly dumb shit. eg: kunai spam against A who is supposed to be much slower than juudara. yet he throws only 1 measly kunai to attack juudara


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

I left this thread a while ago, but i've been reading quick. And i read that Minato wasn't trying to kill Obito.

Obito's the very person he would've tried or wanted to kill the most. It almost killed Naruto twice and threatened to fuck up the world and destroyed his village.

Minato kills. He even tried to put his Kunai in Obito's brain. But then again, i was reading quick and might've got it wrong.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 24, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Well, I think that Sasuke adjusted to his new eyes over time.  The speed difference I saw between them in the Kabuto fight is what I'd expect from a 4.5 person next to a 5.0 person with greater experience.  (Precog being equal.)  Similar to how it took him the Kaguya fight to get used to his rinnegan.
> 
> But yeah, if you assume Sasuke got a general boost to his speed along with his stamina and assorted generalities that rose over time, then he checks out.  Both in the war arc, and for all the MS jutsu he spammed after losing Orochimaru's rich chakra, and his juin amplifier, which logically should have left him less chakra during the summit arc.
> 
> Minato and Konan exploiting the gap makes sense as well, if you assume that Obito got a general boost from the Rinnegan's overwhelming but unspecified chakra power after those fights.  Those eyes did contain Madara's chakra, which is trans-migrant strong as Indra's descendant, and trans-migrant chakra also tends to act differently than normal chakra.  That might mean that the Minato who fought Obito wouldn't be able to so easily exploit the opening in kamui against rinnegan Obito, in which case everyone is happy.



Getting accustomed to certain set of complex abilities would surely take time. Can't say the same about speed tho.

Naruto managed to reach his max speed during his little skirmish with A. 
I doubt It took Sasuke too long to get accustomed to the speed/precog boost he got from EMS.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I left this thread a while ago, but i've been reading quick. And i read that Minato wasn't trying to kill Obito.
> 
> Obito's the very person he would've tried or wanted to kill the most. It almost killed Naruto twice and threatened to fuck up the world and destroyed his village.
> 
> Minato kills. He even tried to put his Kunai in Obito's brain. But then again, i was reading quick and might've got it wrong.



he wanted to murder obito he simply couldnt when obito escaped he prioritized stopping kurama vs chasing obito 

what do you think about my theory that the reason obito stood no chance of reacting against minato rasengan attack had to do with the speed of the attack 

since minato really just fell on him with the rasengan. 

i maintain he summoned himself directly above where the kunai was, so he is barely inches from obito 

now acceleration due to gravity is 9.8m/S2, considering how fast he would be falling in that instant and the distance he had to cover it makes sense that obito stood no chance of reacting

this is somethign people simply cant deal with. unlike in the anime the manga never showed minato swining his arm down at obito. manga if i recall just shows minato falling on obito with the rasengan


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Minato wouldn't be falling that fast at all in that instant. His velocity dependant on the acceleration of gravity would be rather insignificant when we factor that it would be a relatively short amount of time for Elite ninja such as Minato and Young Obito.

 Gravity was hardly a factor, if at all in that scenario.


----------



## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he wanted to murder obito he simply couldnt when obito escaped he prioritized stopping kurama vs chasing obito
> 
> what do you think about my theory that the reason obito stood no chance of reacting against minato rasengan attack had to do with the speed of the attack
> 
> ...



There was a small gap, a milisecond, where Obito knew Minato teleported. That gaps has existed with extremely fast jutsus. It even existed with Night Gai. Even though that is dependant on reaction as well (because i know Obito wouldn't react to such speed), i don't think Kid-Obito's reaction are better than Nagato.

That same gap can be abused with a blast Minato won't be expecting. That's the advantage with those kinds of jutsus over physical movement. And it's why Itachi wasn't erased by Kirin.

If that speed was "unavoidable", Minato would be slamming Rasengan's on Juudara's back over and over again. But we know this wouldn't happen, as Juudara would just turn around and kill him.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Minato wouldn't be falling that fast at all in that instant. His velocity dependant on the acceleration of gravity would be rather insignificant when we factor that it would be a relatively short amount of time for Elite ninja such as Minato and Young Obito.
> 
> Gravity was hardly a factor, if at all in that scenario.



so minato moving at 9.8m/s2 1 inch or less from obito wont be considered ridiculously fast

do the math. calculate time if distance is 1 inch and acceleration is 9.8m/s2

thats basically 2 milli seconds. think thats dam fast. certainly too fast for obito to react to considering he is reacting, he must first process what just happened then use his jutsu. 

unless u think he can do such in 2 milli seconds everytime. he was casually blitz'd


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> There was a small gap, a milisecond, where Obito knew Minato teleported. That gaps has existed with extremely fast jutsus. It even existed with Night Gai. Even though that is dependant on reaction as well (because i know Obito wouldn't react to such speed), i don't think Kid-Obito's reaction are better than Nagato.
> 
> That same gap can be abused with a blast Minato won't be expecting. That's the advantage with those kinds of jutsus over physical movement. And it's why Itachi wasn't erased by Kirin.
> 
> If that speed was "unavoidable", Minato would be slamming Rasengan's on Juudara's back over and over again. But we know this wouldn't happen, as Juudara would just turn around and kill him.



you arent getting me. against obito minato didnt need to physically slam down his arm on obito. he simply fell with the rasengan. 

against juudara minato had to hit him with the rasengan simply put what i am saying is minato strike against juudara was simply slower than having a kunai an inch from you and him appearing to that kunai and falling on you with an attack already prepared 

against juudara it was a frontal attack and he had to use rasengan as he appeared. vs having it already prepped and falling with it behind juudara

there are always gaps with fast jutsu am just saying why obito couldnt do anything in that gap has alot more to do with the speed of the attack than people give it credit for 

all he had to do is fall inches from obito. when obito didnt even know where minato was. anyone caught in that situation will be hit by rasengan


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so minato moving at 9.8m/s2 1 inch or less from obito wont be considered ridiculously fast



 Consider this. 

 Final Velocity = Initial Velocty + Acceleration x Time

 So essentially, the change in Velocity = Acceleration x Time.

 If time is miniscule, the change in velocity is also rather insignificant meaning it relied heavily on Minato's speed here, not a factor such as gravity as the time elapsed would be small which makes the overall change in velocity in equation above small as well. This is by no means downgrades Minato at all as Minato still had to rely almost entirely on his own speed to land his strike before Obito could anticipate Minato's location.

 But no, moving at 9.8 m/s an inch away from Young Obito would be incredibly slow or you're literally nerfing Minato and Young Obito's reflexes here.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Consider this.
> 
> Final Velocity = Initial Velocty + Acceleration x Time
> 
> ...



If you think so ok 
cant go on about it. the scans just show minato more or less falling on obito vs swinging down on him with a rasengan 

in any case I don't know any ninja who will be reacting to minato blind side attack 

ps: I think obito said *that kunai *because minato had other kunai on the battlefield I don't think that has been mentioned. so obito could have simply been surprised by his choice of kunai which had just gotten behind him

we even saw juubito marked can be hit. I guess unless u can perfectly anticipate where minato would land which requires knowledge the guy is going to blitz you 10/10

the only thing against minato strike speed is bee who knew he was marked reacting. that's not nearly enough to say a marked nagato who has no knowledge he is marked doesn't loose his head


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

I agree Obito couldn't do a thing, that's not my point, though. However, i do think he should've maneuvered to hit Obito considering it was off panel (I mean Minato wasn't seem, only Obito's hand). Also, when a Rasengan just appears out of nowhere, it doesn't send you crashing down like that, as demostrated when Naruto's hit Obito's arm. Minato should've pushed it, probably using the same momentum he had when running and more.

Aside from that, Ei would've been screwed, no matter how fast Bee were, because Minato would've  just appeared with a Kunai in his face. I do think you get momentum with Hiraishin, because when Minato dodged Ei, he landed on the tree as if he physically jumped.

But that's not my point. My point was the gap it exists, how jutsus like ST/Susano'o can abuse that gap and how sensing has countered Hiraishin. Wich should be enough for Nagato to kill Minato, _even_ if Minato already is landing his attack, as Nagato is a resilient bitch, and Minato might not expect to be blasted by a ST (No knowledge), that, if Nagato doesn't use it in time and is hit, would use a powerful one to kill him before Minato's attack stops.

That's assuming he hits. Wich i have no problem with people saying he will. I just see him dying by ST, hitting Nagato or not, he won't hit Nagato and teleport back without knowledge before ST destroys him.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

> LostSelf said:
> 
> 
> > I agree Obito couldn't do a thing, that's not my point, though. However, i do think he should've maneuvered to hit Obito considering it was off panel (I mean Minato wasn't seem, only Obito's hand). Also, when a Rasengan just appears out of nowhere, it doesn't send you crashing down like that, as demostrated when Naruto's hit Obito's arm. Minato should've pushed it, probably using the same momentum he had when running and more.
> ...


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > minato could have if he decided to opted for falling at A with an already prepped attack vs. swining down his arm like he did.
> >
> > notice minato second attack aganst obito. the kunai probably did not noticeable damage because minato didn't lunge at obito or swing at him. he simply jabbed him.
> 
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thats basically 2 milli seconds. think thats dam fast. certainly too fast for obito to react to considering he is reacting, he must first process what just happened then use his jutsu.
> 
> unless u think he can do such in 2 milli seconds everytime. he was casually blitz'd



 All right, I actually understand your position on this. My main point was that gravity had very little impact on Minato's speed of his attack as the acceleration of gravity's impact on the velocity of an object heavily depends on time meaning that Minato's speed was hardly affected by gravity, but only by Minato's own speed.


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

> LostSelf said:
> 
> 
> > Icegaze said:
> ...


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

@ LostSelf

Sensing is only a more surefire way of identifying that an enemy is behind you. It doesn't always mean you can respond to speedy attacks, even if you have access to seal-less defenses. [1]


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## Icegaze (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @ LostSelf
> 
> Sensing is only a more surefire way of identifying that an enemy is behind you. It doesn't always mean you can respond to speedy attacks, even if you have access to seal-less defenses. [1]



good point. also notice So6P Naruto looks back to see what angle sasuke is coming from which goes in line with what jiraiya said about sensors. yes sensors can avoid attacks they cant see, however they would obviously do so better if they could see what was coming at them esp when choosing to avoid or block the attack 

So nagato not seeing minato would mean,he could opt for preta path to stop a kunai which wont help him. or attempt using asura path which may or may not help. 

or use an ST from the back while minato more to the side of him. 

juudara a sensor wth an automatic defence couldn't keep up with 8 gate gai. because gai was much faster. well minato is also much faster than nagato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Well, we know he marks certain areas which is likely what tells him once he's in his dimension where exactly to pop out to in order to get to where he wants. I suppose it's possible that if he's already aware of an individuals chakra signature then he could trace them if they're in one of his marked areas. Would be really the only explanation for why he can target and locate individuals as quickly as he can even when they move to completely different areas. In fact, this seems to be just what he suggests when searching for Sasuke.



That works too actually. 



Turrin said:


> Obito, "Even I could not transplant Rinnegan in both eyes......"
> 
> Obito, "Because of just this left eye alone...I nearly lost myself to it's excessively powerful chakra and douryoku [ocular power] "
> 
> ...



So then would it suffice to say Obito definitely was faster than he was before due to having even better perception?



Turrin said:


> The only way Rinnegan could increase speed is if it gives access to the enhanced perception of the Choko or Whatever Tome and we assume Madara also has a Choko or Whatever Tome.



The straight tomoe is just the EMS. Any comment Madara made with it makes sense when you replace it with EMS; Madara remarked how Sasuke also awakened the EMS and said apart from Madara, Sasuke was the only one to awaken the EMS.

I don't think the EMS has special perceptive abilities. I'll explain.

Sharingan has perceptive abilities. The MS has stronger chakra, thus it increases the capability of said perception. The EMS's chakra quality surpasses the MS by leaps and bounds, so the boost the MS enhanced perception would be insane. So it stands to reason that the next level, the Rinnegan, with overwhelmingly powerful chakra would grant even better perception.

Though as you noted, the quality from Obito/Nagato would differ significantly from Madara's.


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## Turrin (Jun 24, 2015)

@Munboy Dracule O'Brian

If the higher perception abilities are gained by EMS than I do not know why Kishi wouldn't have just said EMS, instead of saying Straight Spiral, I mean he used the terminology of Eien no Mangekyo every other time. In-fact I do not see how straight spiral even describes the EMS. But it does describe how Sasuke's EMS appears, which is w/o a Spiral unlike Madara's EMS. Which leads me to believe it's the type of EMS, not just the EMS. And It was simply to enable Sasuke to keep up with Naruto and the enemies he had to go up against.

So sorry, but I just can't agree with this.


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## LostSelf (Jun 24, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @ LostSelf
> 
> Sensing is only a more surefire way of identifying that an enemy is behind you. It doesn't always mean you can respond to speedy attacks, even if you have access to seal-less defenses. [1]



But what was Naruto's seal-less defense tnat activates instantly?

The thing is that even if Nagato manages to use Shinra Tensei slower and can't avoid the hit, the blast will still hit Minato as he won't be expecting a counter attack to teleport back right away. And it's not likely that he can kill Nagato with a Rasengan.

On top of that, it's not how i view the fight nonetheless, but i am doubting the Minato bambflashing Nagato like a Genin. In my eyes, the fight will take longer than that. Enough to figure out Hiraishin and to effectively counter it (Preta Path/Asura Path). I just had to debate against that, especially when Nagato has two things that helped with Hiraishin.

@Icegaze: Minato is not making a clone if he's hit by a deadly ST. He will just die or outright knocked out.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But what was Naruto's seal-less defense tnat activates instantly?



The telepathically controlled Truth Seekers on his back (which is where Sasuke attacked him nonetheless) aren't just there for show.

The Kyubi Avatar head is also basically the same thing as Susano'o.

So there's two.



LostSelf said:


> The thing is that even if Nagato manages to use Shinra Tensei slower and can't avoid the hit, the blast will still hit Minato as he won't be expecting a counter attack to teleport back right away.



...how would Nagato continue to use Shinra Tensei if he's hit by Minato? It'd be the same thing as Tendo getting interrupted by Rasengan before he can use the jutsu. ST didn't go off and kill base Naruto, now did it?



LostSelf said:


> And it's not likely that he can kill Nagato with a Rasengan.



Nagato isn't a character that can no-sell Chidori/Rasengan level techniques, so one probably injures him to the point where whatever successive attack Minato decides to use finishes him off.



LostSelf said:


> On top of that, it's not how i view the fight nonetheless, but i am doubting the Minato bambflashing Nagato like a Genin.



I think the problem lies in you believing that the world's fastest man can only blitz Genin.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 24, 2015)

I'll team up Minato and Tsunade in a thread.  Maybe together they can take a chunin.  Call it "Bondaime's Unite."


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

Turrin said:


> So Nagato, Killer-B, and Obito are Genin "level"



They're all Kage levels.

But Kage levels aren't immune to being speed blitzed by the world's fastest man.


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## Trojan (Jun 24, 2015)

Wasn't Nagato unable to dodge itachi's Susanoo attack? 
Or B's, or Hanzu's?


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## StickaStick (Jun 24, 2015)

Kabuto didn't make use of Nagato's sensing.

Is the Hanzo thing were he tried to save Konan? If so as I remember it he didn't really have a choice.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

@StickaStick

Hussain is probably talking about when Itachi stabbed Nagato with the Sword of Totsuka, apparently before he even noticed it, but before he could respond with anything regardless.


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## Trojan (Jun 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Kabuto didn't make use of Nagato's sensing.
> 
> Is the Hanzo thing were he tried to save Konan? If so as I remember it he didn't really have a choice.



But he was using the shared vision. I really doubt that Kunai's coming from behind the trees is harder to counter the someone appearing to your face directly. 

As for Nagato himself he was using his senses at first when he warned Narudo from the Amatersu, and he did not do a thing to not being hit by it.The one with the Susanoo, the Susanoo's arm was hitting the ground, so I really doubt that he couldn't here it. He tried to go back, but he couldn't...

Look here at the last panel
blown apart
Nagato seems like noticing something
blown apart

but I guess you can argue that it was because he was holding B and Narudo.


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## StickaStick (Jun 24, 2015)

@ Rocky. Yeah I know, which is what my Kabuto comment is about. Nagato had an extraordinary sensing ability that Kabuto was unaware. Itachi also took advantage of a dust cloud to boot so Nagato was more-or-less a sitting duck in that situation.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

<snip>



> @ Rocky. Yeah I know, which is what my Kabuto comment is about. Nagato had an extraordinary sensing ability that Kabuto was unaware. Itachi also took advantage of a dust cloud to boot so Nagato was more-or-less a sitting duck in that situation.


Nagato wouldn't have needed to sense the sword coming when his eyes work even better. The dust cloud only covered Susano'o, so it wouldn't have covered the sword once Itachi extended it towards Nagato.


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## StickaStick (Jun 24, 2015)

Hussain said:


> But he was using the shared vision. I really doubt that Kunai's coming from behind the trees is harder to counter the someone appearing to your face directly.


If you're talking about when he got hit by Totsuka, Itachi had eliminated Nagato's shared vision by that point, no?



> As for Nagato himself he was using his senses at first when he warned Narudo from the Amatersu, and he did not do a thing to not being hit by it.The one with the Susanoo, the Susanoo's arm was hitting the ground, so I really doubt that he couldn't here it. He tried to go back, but he couldn't...


Nagato was under the impression Itachi's was going to aim his Ama at Naruto/Bee, and not him, which is why he warned _them_.

Edit: It's also worth noting this was before he had regained his "prime" form anyhow.



> Look here at the last panel
> blown apart
> Nagato seems like noticing something
> blown apart


These happened after Kabuto re-assumed his control over Nagato. Although it is interesting that Kabuto wasn't aware Nagato was a sensor when it should have been obvious after he altered Naruto to Itachi's incoming Ama.



Rocky said:


> Nagato wouldn't have needed to sense the sword coming when his eyes work even better. The dust cloud only covered Susano'o, so it wouldn't have covered the sword once Itachi extended it towards Nagato.


Unless I'm misinterpreting this it actually looks like Nagato is looking at the blown up core and not even paying attention to the dust cloud before he gets hit. Regardless, if he had taken advantage of his sensing he wouldn't have needed to wait for Totsuka to appear from out of the dust cloud in order to react.


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## Rocky (Jun 24, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> Unless I'm misinterpreting this it actually looks like Nagato is looking at the blown up core and not even paying attention to the dust cloud before he gets hit.



I really don't think he's looking so far up into the sky that he'd miss a large sword emerging from the cloud, and since his eyes are illustrated the same on the next page when he begins to converse with the others, I doubt he's looking up at all.



StickaStick said:


> Regardless, if he had taken advantage of his sensing he wouldn't have needed to wait for Totsuka to appear from out of the dust cloud in order to react.



That's meaningless against Hiraishin as the users tend to pop up out of nowhere, just like that sword popped up out of the dust cloud. 

I'm also not sure if sensing would have even helped him there, because wouldn't he just be sensing Itachi's presence, whom he already knew was present in the dust cloud?


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> @ Rocky. Yeah I know, which is what my Kabuto comment is about. Nagato had an extraordinary sensing ability that Kabuto was unaware. Itachi also took advantage of a dust cloud to boot so Nagato was more-or-less a sitting duck in that situation.



 Makes me wonder where his chakra vision went during that time.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> @Munboy Dracule O'Brian
> 
> If the higher perception abilities are gained by EMS than I do not know why Kishi wouldn't have just said EMS, instead of saying Straight Spiral, I mean he used the terminology of Eien no Mangekyo every other time. In-fact I do not see how straight spiral even describes the EMS. But it does describe how Sasuke's EMS appears, which is w/o a Spiral unlike Madara's EMS. Which leads me to believe it's the type of EMS, not just the EMS. And It was simply to enable Sasuke to keep up with Naruto and the enemies he had to go up against.
> 
> So sorry, but I just can't agree with this.



 This. It was heavily implied that Sraight Commas were a trait that connected Madara and Sasuke beyond blood. Essentially, both the Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan signify that the person is of Uchiha, so 2 beings with either of those Sharingan generally implies them being connected by Uchiha blood. Similar to the EMS, all it is is the implantation of another Uchiha's (brother's) eyes on top of your pre-existing Mangekyo which implies users of the Eternal Mangekyo would still be connected by Uchiha blood.

 However, the issue is that Madara implied he was connected to Sasuke by something beyond blood and him specifically relating that to his Straight Commas implies it's such a defining trait. What further supports Turrin's view is the idea that Madara believed that despite Obito having no possible way of attaining the EMS, he still considered the outcome of Obito having Straight Commas meaning it's entirely possible to have Straight Commas in his MS, esp. when we take into consideration that Obito's MS was something special in the fact that it's the only known MS in existence that managed to attain S/T ninjutsu.

 With that being said, it's more likely or not Madara implied that it may have been because both were Transmigrants that they managed to attain Straight Commas in their Mangekyo. At the very least, I believe:

 Indra Chakra + MS = Straight Commas; though that doesn't have to apply to every single Mangekyo user. 

 This actually makes perfect sense as that's the only connection that could be seen between both Madara and Sasuke that actually seems to be beyond blood and the implication of what would happen if Obito attained Straight Commas in his Mangekyo implies that it had nothing to do with the awakening of the EMS at all. Of course, Madara and Sasuke both happened to develop Straight Commas after awakening their EMS, but that doesn't have to be the case as both seemed to have retained the Mangekyo for a relatively short time prior to awakening the EMS.

 I mean, you could argue that both had Senju DNA, but considering that's a connection between blood, I'mma say no. 

 Food for thought, if Shisui or Itachi actually attained the EMS, do you honestly think some like Shisui or the Solo King: Itachi () and Madara would have any sort of connection beyond Uchiha blood? Doesn't exactly seem logical as there's nothing to indicate that there would be.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> But what was Naruto's seal-less defense tnat activates instantly?
> 
> The thing is that even if Nagato manages to use Shinra Tensei slower and can't avoid the hit, the blast will still hit Minato as he won't be expecting a counter attack to teleport back right away. And it's not likely that he can kill Nagato with a Rasengan.
> 
> ...



odd bee, and KCM naruto didnt die or even get knocked out. just saying


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

^ The larger the distance is, the weaker the gravitional force is hence why they didn't get knocked out.

 That or Kabuto likely wanted them alive. Obito after all wouldn't be too happy if the 2 remaining Jins died.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 25, 2015)

I think he said he didn't care if they died, because he could revive them with Nagato's revival jutsu or something.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think he said he didn't care if they died, because he could revive them with Nagato's revival jutsu or something.



 If that were the case, then none of the Akatsuki would have had to capture the Jins alive in the first place.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 25, 2015)

I don't know what Kabuto was thinking.

Turning them into stars also apparently wouldn't kill them.  Which makes sense, since Nagato was going to turn Naruto into a moon in their battle to capture him.  Don't ask me how chibaku tensei is non-lethal.

Come to think about it, it sealed but didn't kill Kaguya either, or the bijuu Sasuke captured.  Maybe it's just a poorly thought out sealing jutsu.


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## Icegaze (Jun 25, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> ^ The larger the distance is, the weaker the gravitional force is hence why they didn't get knocked out.
> 
> That or Kabuto likely wanted them alive. Obito after all wouldn't be too happy if the 2 remaining Jins died.



fair enough. so how are we sure minato would be anywhere close to him before he realizes it in time to do anything about it 



minato could attack from behind which we have noticed even juubi jins arent immune to

i just want minato to win agree with me dammit.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 25, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't know what Kabuto was thinking.
> 
> Turning them into stars also apparently wouldn't kill them.  Which makes sense, since Nagato was going to turn Naruto into a moon in their battle to capture him.  Don't ask me how chibaku tensei is non-lethal.
> 
> Come to think about it, it sealed but didn't kill Kaguya either, or the bijuu Sasuke captured.  Maybe it's just a poorly thought out sealing jutsu.



 Perhaps. I don't really know what to think.

 Pain intentionally used it on KN6 Naruto despite having the intention of capturing him.

 Turning them into stars

 Nagato literally believed that he merely captured him, not killed him. It's strange because logic would dictate that they would die based on the immense amount of pressure caused by being crushed by the force of innumerable amount of boulders, but . Narutologic at it's finest.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jun 25, 2015)

I think this thread has run its course.


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