# Kitsune



## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

A super moderator is someone who is supposed to be a role model and leader of our forum. A super moderator is supposed to be someone other members should look at with respect. A super moderator should not be insulting members or discussing their mental state and it's disgusting how the staff have no issues with any of this taking place.



As we can see, our super moderator Kitsune has no problems being extremely disrespectful to the members of NF and saying disgusting slander behind their backs.

Let's look at what Kitsune says the perfect advisor candidate should be:




Sounds like Gin huh? Well here's what Kitsune has to say about Gin:






So, how do the other staff feel about the disgusting comments Kitsune makes? They have no problems with it and defend her regularly. Here's what happens to any mod who dares defies Kitsune. Also I find it interesting how Kitsune doesn't like to feel degraded but doesn't hesitate to degrade anyone else.




And what does Kitsune personally do to mods who defy her? Make up lies in order to slander them.







Also ane is an advisor who somehow has mod powers and deleted the last thread that was made about this. Staff should explain this as well.

Kitsune has also stopped iwan and Musubi from ever making Fang into an Advisor.

And finally, Kitsune has leaked to Krory before about Cafe matters.


Kitsune must be demodded. It's not an option. Do it now or suffer the consequences.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

so ok, here's the actual thread

let's discuss it like human beings 

take ur unconnected beefs elsewhere


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## Sassy (Jan 23, 2019)

I would like answers to your actions & conduct. @Kitsune


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> so ok, here's the actual thread
> 
> let's discuss it like human beings
> 
> take ur unconnected beefs elsewhere



I'd suggest a recap of the relevant information gained from the original thread.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

What's this about?


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

I am here to confirm that yes, Kitsune has personally leaked to me in the past.

She "confided" in me about issues with the Cafe, though the story ever-changing over the days. It ranged from saying that the staff were afraid of Megaharrison, to saying they just did not care, saying she was modded there simply as a face to keep people quiet, and also claimed she was regularly abused by Megaharrison and her complaints to staff went ignored regarding these issues, while also saying both she was too afraid to make decisions in the Cafe and that she was outright disallowed from doing it (both from Mega himself, and from the staff as a whole).

Keep in mind, I say this not as something I believe to be true currently (though at the time I did as I trusted her at the time, despite the flip-flopping story), but as a note that Kitsune is currently coming after regular members and staff alike for issues ranging from mental illnesses, leaking, and outright lying when she expressed all of these qualities herself to me, personally.

And before it's asked, no, I don't have record of these Skype convos and PMs.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> I'd suggest a recap of the relevant information gained from the original thread.


@Kitsune 

she breaks rule 

doesn't contribute 

is stuck in the hr 

encourages a dichotomy between members and staff

uhhhh

flaming people, and not regular but going for personal hits about people 

hypocrite

abuses her power and authority 

uhhhh

tl;dr 

kits = bad 
demote kits = good


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> I say this not as something I believe to be true currently



As someone that was witness to it and is currently in lolstaff mode and enjoying the show I'll say... it's not entirely off base. She got Cafe powers without Mega being consulted and they were butting heads due to personality differences and no one was particularly eager to open Pandora's Box to forcefully remove a mod over a situation they never asked for in the first place. Mega being Mega you can guess what butting heads looked like. Who's to blame for that situation? Start throwing darts and see who's name they land on.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

@Xiammes 

thoughts?


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## Xiammes (Jan 23, 2019)

At werk, what was all leaked?


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2019)

*


			
				Trinity said:
			
		


			TO MODS:
		
Click to expand...

*


			
				Trinity said:
			
		

> Reznor greenlit a Q&C thread earlier right in s this very thread. I'm going to green light this a second time.
> 
> To users:
> You have my permission to make one. However, all I request out of all of you is to keep it civil - no flaming, no personal attacks. You can get heated as much as you want, swears are allowed, aggressive posts are okay, etc: but don't cross lines that shouldn't be crossed.
> ...



What was leaked was the fact how much Kitsune used her personal bias to cause havoc with the whole advisor plan you had, Xiammes.  And her role in what happened with Nighty being banned on silly nonsense for "leaking" when she herself is guilty of it many times as Krory has said, and then Reznor doing the whole playing defense for her without her directly being held accountable or punished in anyway.

And then some shit happened later like Wad calling Reznor out then getting banned a week for telling some dupe account/proxy using poster like Magpie to "kys". But that's the crux of it. So the cat's out of the bag. Especially now that we know how much Kitsune used her influence to prevent certain posters from being advisored or modded and the stuff with the Nighty drama.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> At werk, what was all leaked?


everything that proves kitsune is problematic


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## Xiammes (Jan 23, 2019)

Painting this as Kitsune being some ring leader and having major influence is a view point filled with its own major bias. Kitsune did disagree with a number of candidates, however she was not the only one, the disagreements never got resolved, which is why things dragged and the situation still remains unresolved. There were several things wrong before the advisor thread ever got to that point, including my own failings at its inception. After the shit show last year, and a well documented history of burn out and people turning bitter, fear about bringing in people with their own issues and baggage is a well earned fear and complaint. I don't fully agree with the stance, but its not something I can just handwave away.

Kitsune had very little to do with Nighty's ban, it was done before any resolution on the discussion was had, at best the only thing that was agree'd on was the destaffing. What murmurs of being banned was discussing previous leaking and if nighty should be consistent with that. However Nighty was banned at some point where she and Reznor had a long private convo of some sort. Somewhere the impression was got that Nighty wanted to stay banned, and the general idea was case closed. Turns out that was just a massive miscommunication and Nighty was unbanned later.

As for the language used in the posts, that is a huge problem that has existed for a long time. Typically we talked without filter, laying out some pretty nasty frustrations, that turned into its own "toxic" culture that a lot of us had gotten completely nose blind too. After the shit shows last year, me and mostly rin lead a change in the Code of Conduct, which included clamping down that kind behavior and conduct in the HO. Old wounds and feuds don't heal and you get shit shows like this. I was stupid and naive to try and push something as contentious without a level of planning it deserved, of course there would be a fear over "risky" candidates, some people don't get the idea of advisors. I was riding high on a good amount of progress and wanted to get another huge victory to rebound, and shit imploded from the beginning.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

"Kitsune mocking and targeting people for mental illness, real or imagined, is okay because other mods say bad stuff too."

Yep. Now that is the reply I expected from staff.


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

okay, i read the alley thread so my input is valid 

and i'll be honest, i had no f idea there even was a smod called kitsune (which ties into the "doesn't contribute anything" complaint ig), however, kitsune's behavior doesn't need someone who knows her to notice it's well out of fucking hand.

using your personal bias to destroy a moderating tactic (the advisor initiative) by one of your administrators, barring completely acceptable members of the position because you don't personally like them should be grounds to strip your voice of that decision tbh

then, shit talking members behind their back for conditions they have absolutely no control over is fucking deplorable, furthermore using their conditions as a stepping stone for your agenda is demodding worthy

that said

stop being fucking thirstfags and shoot her out of the staff already


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> Painting this as Kitsune being some ring leader


she's not 

just a girl with whiteknights and friends who wanna keep abusing power and their position 



Xiammes said:


> Kitsune had very little to do with Nighty's ban,


the purpose of that screen is to convey how vindictive she is and how she operates on emotion 



Xiammes said:


> I was stupid and naive to try and push something as contentious without a level of planning it deserved, of course there would be a fear over "risky" candidates, some people don't get the idea of advisors.


no, there are just people who dont give two fucks 

and only care about themselves and their forum friends 

have u considered how much more smoothly things would run if you didnt have staff who acted like kitsune out of the way?

Reactions: Like 1


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

also, i can get more leaks of her egregious behavior, xiammes 

if u want me to 

not saying it's a threat, but its possible because of how problematic she is


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> also, i can get more leaks of her egregious behavior, xiammes
> 
> if u want me to
> 
> not saying it's a threat, but its possible because of how problematic she is



Do you already have it, or is this just something you probably could receive soonish?


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

tbh instead of justifying as "everything kinda sucks"

illuminate to me who kitsune is

why she's useful

what she contributes

and why it's ok for her say to something along the lines of "i was hoping my admin friend x  would nuke you" is ok 

etc

dont forget, kobe and loz were demoted for less

and she has confirmed leaked to krory


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Do you already have it, or is this just something you probably could receive soonish?


i just gotta ask again for more stuff


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## Fang (Jan 23, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> Painting this as Kitsune being some ring leader and having major influence is a view point filled with its own major bias.



No one called or labeled her as the ringleader. Only that she seems to be very clearly getting her way with how her actions and behavior have illustrated with what has happened.



> Kitsune did disagree with a number of candidates,



Right, like her more or less insulting and flaming White Wolf from what we've seen for disagreeing with her during the candidate vetting process. Which reeks of parallels of when Haterade would insult Blue when he wouldn't ban someone off hand because Haterade wanted them gone. Doomed to repeat the past basically here.



> however she was not the only one,



Again, no one said she was the only one. But she's the most vocal and throwing her weight around while verbally insulting, beating down and impetuously losing her shit over candidates she has a personal vindictive bias and spite against.



> the disagreements never got resolved,



We know.



> There were several things wrong before the advisor thread ever got to that point, including my own failings at its inception. After the shit show last year, and a well documented history of burn out and people turning bitter, fear about bringing in people with their own issues and baggage is a well earned fear and complaint. I don't fully agree with the stance, but its not something I can just handwave away.



Dude, we have the leaked screencaps of this stuff, they've been posted repetaedly now. We know between what you wanted and said, and what actually transpired, and then who ended up actually getting promoted to advisorship were three completely different things but not one sequence of events.



> Kitsune had very little to do with Nighty's ban,



This doesn't seem the to be the case.

And anyways like Jojo and other shave said, her behavior is erratic and based off irrational emotional mood-swings on her part. 

Which is why we've seen how she's lost her shit in the past and got removed from being a mod for months, and why she was so focused on trying to throw Nighty under the bus despite her being a serial leaker (hugely in the past) herself and guilty of the same crime while throwing stone's at Lauren. 

This won't go away soon because people are pissed. Simple fact is Kitsune caused a huge issue and is the root of this, so there needs to be a major accounting for this.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

>Tries to take @Kitsune  head off for hours.
>Wait we just wanted to talk!

Think it might be a wee bit late for a friendly conversation fellas.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> >Tries to take @Kitsune  head off for hours.
> >Wait we just wanted to talk!
> 
> Think it might be a wee bit late for a friendly conversation fellas.


go bait somewhere else my dude


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> go bait somewhere else my dude


Sup Jojo?


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

So the basic takeaway of this is, "Staff members can do whatever they want, act however they want, as long as they have enough other staff members that like them or agree with their harassment and threats."

It used to be a meme, whispered paranoia, but we have factual evidence of a high standing staff member abusing control and making personal attacks and the only official response we get is, "Yeah. That happens. Oh well."


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

Damn Krory must be desperate for that alley discord invite


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> So the basic takeaway of this is, "Staff members can do whatever they want, act however they want, as long as they have enough other staff members that like them or agree with their harassment and threats."
> 
> It used to be a meme, whispered paranoia, but we have factual evidence of a high standing staff member abusing control and making personal attacks and the only official response we get is, "Yeah. That happens. Oh well."


I guess it doesn't help if we people we have to go through is A)the admin that immediately gave her her powers back or B)the admin who kitsune mentioned by name said would nuke white wolf if he looked at her side ways 

iunno

@Jackk @Whitebeard 

as our resident advisors who play pr and mend relations between staff and members, what do you think should happen to someone like kitsune?


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Kitsune's never gonna show up. Y'all handle this like a bunch of amateurs. Tried to bait her and organized a witch hunt, tagged the fuck out of her, now @JoJo of all people wants to have a serious conversation. You'll be very disappointed.


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

anyway, so, the biggest takeaway here is

"staff uses HO as an outlet for their moderating and taking their frustrations out"

ok

everyone needs to cut loose once in a while, no problem. 

however

there's a very stark difference between

"god, juan was being such an asshole to white wolf/atlantic storm today"

and 

"i don't ever want juan to be a mod because he suffers clinical depression, what a fucking retard"

one is excusable, the other isn't.


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## Mider T (Jan 23, 2019)

I dunno what the fuss is about, I like Nagi.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> Damn Krory must be desperate for that alley discord invite



:nattydrake I'm already in Discord with anyone from Alley that matters.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Kitsune's never gonna show up. Y'all handle this like a bunch of amateurs. Tried to bait her and organized a witch hunt, tagged the fuck out of her, now @JoJo of all people wants to have a serious conversation. You'll be very disappointed.


which is the exact same thing people have done for the last 3 staff

no one goes to the Q&C to do anything ever since it's a sure fire loss, gotta call them out in public 

i attempted to have a serious conversation multiple, anyone refused to show up
kits is the woman of the hour, so she gets tagged in posts related to her 

i dont expect anything other than staff having the backbone to oust someone like her who now we all have actual hard evidence being manipulating, vindictive, and noncontributive  

why does she get treated any different than mysticgohan or kobe?  

iunno bud 

might be a losing a battle, but it's a battle im gonna fight for regardless. if u and ur friends got nothing useful to say and this is the """"""seriouis"""""" section then kindly take ur leave


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## Sassy (Jan 23, 2019)

It's not just JoJo that wants answers other indiviuals are wanting answers as well. It's been said mutiple times throughout.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> anyway, so, the biggest takeaway here is
> 
> "staff uses HO as an outlet for their moderating and taking their frustrations out"
> 
> ...



Actually, Xiammes just said that it is _all _excusable.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

@Kitsune 

wyd


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> which is the exact same thing people have done for the last 3 staff
> 
> no one goes to the Q&C to do anything ever since it's a sure fire loss, gotta call them out in public
> 
> ...


Coming from the guy who always comes here to derail our threads that's fucking rich.

You acted like a bunch of assholes harassing the fuck out of her now it's "bu bu but, we just wanna talk". Any chances you've had at making progress have been blown by the dumb shit you pulled.

I got plenty to contribute. Kitsune ain't gonna show up. Feel free to tag her and keep at it though.


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> Actually, Xiammes just said that it is _all _excusable.


yeah i know

i'm explaining why the justification he used is dumb


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Coming from the guy who always comes here to derail our threads that's fucking rich.
> 
> You acted like a bunch of assholes harassing the fuck out of her now it's "bu bu but, we just wanna talk". Any chances you've had at making progress have been blown by the dumb shit you pulled.
> 
> I got plenty to contribute. Kitsune ain't gonna show up. Feel free to tag her and keep at it though.


whether im a hypocrite or not is ultimately irrelevant

again, i fucking could be hitler behind my monitor and because there is actual proof of doing things far worse than what khaleesi, mystic, etc.  have done 

ur acting like this is an isolated situation and a purely one of 

years, and years people try and talk to staff but they only ever respond to threads like the ones in the alley where they get called out to respond and explain themselves 
hell, look at kobe, no resistance to shit on him from the staff side even though it was done in the same manner 

you have nothing constructive to contribute, leave pls


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> yeah i know
> 
> i'm explaining why the justification he used is dumb



Trust me, everyone knows it's dumb.  But sadly, having that information does nothing. Just like having the information of everything she's done does nothing because "herp derp, that's okay, everyone does bad stuff."


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> whether im a hypocrite or not is ultimately irrelevant




Cute.



> again, i fucking could be hitler behind my monitor and because there is actual proof of doing things far worse than what khaleesi, mystic, etc.  have done
> 
> ur acting like this is an isolated situation and a purely one of
> 
> ...


Not even close. You fucked up big time. This could have had led to something but like always, no foresight and acting like apes fucked it up.

Great job.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Coming from the guy who always comes here to derail our threads that's fucking rich.
> 
> You acted like a bunch of assholes harassing the fuck out of her now it's "bu bu but, we just wanna talk". Any chances you've had at making progress have been blown by the dumb shit you pulled.
> 
> I got plenty to contribute. Kitsune ain't gonna show up. Feel free to tag her and keep at it though.



To be honest, if she isn't, that just fuels the contempt for her and adds to the reputation of not engaging the community.


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## Chloe (Jan 23, 2019)

if this were a relationship where one party (kitsune) threatened the other (white wolf) that they’d get their cousins (xiammes) to beat em up (take them out back and put him down) it would be deemed toxic no?

using any member’s mental health (regular or staff) against them in the way she did is not ok. threatening other staff in the way she did was not ok. throwing unfounded accusations at fellow staff members the way she did is not ok.

and any sensible friend would say “remove that toxic person from your life”.

we’re here to be that sensible friend.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Cute.


and it's true 



> Not even close. You fucked up big time. This could have had led to something but like always, no foresight and acting like apes fucked it up.
> 
> Great job.


yep, def our fault for underestimating how deeply kitsune has ingrained herself


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## Xiammes (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> she's not
> 
> just a girl with whiteknights and friends who wanna keep abusing power and their position
> 
> ...



If the arguments is just going to go to "white knights" then this discussion can't go anywhere. I consider kitsune a friend which is a natural bias, but I also heavily disagree with her on so many topics. She has a long history of being combative and its not pretty, after the trin/dream/wolf/kitsune drama, the new code of conduct was drafted and it their behavior to be under scrutiny. Having a disagreeable opinion isn't something to remove someone for, the conduct in the posts is another story the admin teams fault for letting it slip by, but things have been million miles per hour and I haven't been able to screw my head on straight to figure out up from down.



> no, there are just people who dont give two fucks
> 
> and only care about themselves and their forum friends
> 
> have u considered how much more smoothly things would run if you didnt have staff who acted like kitsune out of the way?



You mean if I had more yes men or there was a powerful leader who could quash debates? Yes men would just lead to a whole new list of problems, site would probably be unrecognizable. A actual leader would be a blessing, mbxx worst sin isn't his incompetetance(just his second), but that he half asses his evil overlord position. He leaves site wide and owner tier decisions to a bunch of people who are supposed to be just enforcing rules, confusing what our position entails eternally.



JoJo said:


> tbh instead of justifying as "everything kinda sucks"
> 
> illuminate to me who kitsune is
> 
> ...




I can give you some drivel, or I can not. Kitsune is abrasive and overly combative, can be hard to get along with. She was one of the few people willing to be openly the bad cop and would bring up things we miss, I suck at behavior enforcement as I am too soft for example.

And no, it was not okay to say something like that, but that entire thread childish as fuck and amounted to a bunch of chimps throwing poo at each other. The transgressions in the thread by multiple parties were overlooked because we were in the middle of a shit show and indecisiveness. Kitsunes comment refers to the point where I told both she and Wolf were going to be watched.



Fang said:


> No one called or labeled her as the ringleader. Only that she seems to be very clearly getting her way with how her actions and behavior have illustrated with what has happened.



I guess you can call the deadlock a fillabuster or something along those lines, but we are still resolving the issue.



Fang said:


> Right, like her more or less insulting and flaming White Wolf from what we've seen



There were multiple people baiting and flaming in that thread, it got mostly looked over(which you can say is my fault) since it happened almost immediately after the nighty situation. 



Fang said:


> This doesn't seem the to be the case.



I can say this till I go blue, but nighty's ban was handled without us even coming close to a full discussion if she should be banned at all.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> To be honest, if she isn't, that just fuels the contempt for her and adds to the reputation of not engaging the community.


Who knows. At one point she might have had but you guys were knocking on her door as a lynch mob with pitchforks. Why would she show up?


JoJo said:


> and it's true
> 
> 
> yep, def our fault for underestimating how deeply kitsune has ingrained herself


It's your fault for chimping out. Harassing the fuck out of her and for some reason expecting her to reply to you. Not even defending what she did. It's the typical staff doing dumb shit. Instead of handling this properly, y'all did this amateur-hour style and this lead to this.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Who knows. At one point she might have had but you guys were knocking on her door as a lynch mob with pitchforks. Why would she show up?



Not too long ago, Wad wrote an eloquent, formal post addressing the grievances he and the Alley had with how the staff handled the advisor process and the Nighty shitshow. Kitsune's entire response was "Good post". The fact that the Alley is where staff actually acknowledges complaints on a far more regular basis than in the Q&C section is plenty of reason for not just tagging the fuck out of Kitsune and any staff involved, but really just handling everything in the Alley and moderating the thread such that it doesn't quite degenerate into members sniping at each other the way it did with Natty and OBDers. 

It's not as simple as "why would she go there when everyone's mad? lol"


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> A super moderator is someone who is supposed to be a role model and leader of our forum. A super moderator is supposed to be someone other members should look at with respect. A super moderator should not be insulting members or discussing their mental state and it's disgusting how the staff have no issues with any of this taking place.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And if she had done that to a staff member or member you didn't give a darn about, you'd just be meming. Quit lying with your righteous crusade.


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

oh my god who the fuck cares if they did it professionally/amateur-like and if jojo is the literal fucking devil

that's not the point of the thread


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> Coming from the guy who always comes here to derail our threads that's fucking rich.
> 
> You acted like a bunch of assholes harassing the fuck out of her now it's "bu bu but, we just wanna talk". Any chances you've had at making progress have been blown by the dumb shit you pulled.
> 
> I got plenty to contribute. Kitsune ain't gonna show up. Feel free to tag her and keep at it though.



I was actually curious about this...this entire section fosters a culture of false loyalty, depravity, two faced nonsense and the only reason why any of them are defending Nighty is solely for the lulz they're getting out of the "drama" and that's it. none of them care about each other, none of them are ever capable of serious introspection much less an honest defense of someone else.

Why is it so shocking then, that in a land of vultures, only the corpses matter?



Juub said:


> It's your fault for chimping out. Harassing the fuck out of her and for some reason expecting her to reply to you. Not even defending what she did. It's the typical staff doing dumb shit. Instead of handling this properly, y'all did this amateur-hour style and this lead to this.



Shit, when they put knives up in pics and titled a thread "Kill Kitsune" any hope of legitimacy conversation was gone and the only reason why this section hasn't faced a purge is because the mods need their sycophants.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Not too long ago, Wad wrote an eloquent, formal post addressing the grievances he and the Alley had with how the staff handled the advisor process and the Nighty shitshow. Kitsune's entire response was "Good post". The fact that the Alley is where staff actually acknowledges complaints on a far more regular basis than in the Q&C section is plenty of reason for not just tagging the fuck out of Kitsune and any staff involved, but really just handling everything in the Alley and moderating the thread such that it doesn't quite degenerate into members sniping at each other the way it did with Natty and OBDers.


And this would hold any water if threads in The Alley ever lead to something productive. The Q&C is a miss 80% of the time but it works very rarely. The Alley is 100% miss. Not to mention this wad's post was during that time the witch hunt started and there was a strong mob mentality just waiting to lynch her.



> It's not as simple as "why would she go there when everyone's mad? lol"


It's why she ain't gonna answer. Anybody weighing the pros and cons wouldn't step into the belly of the beast. There are multiple issues with this whole bullshit. Don't expect anything to come out. It comes down to staff to do something about her but I doubt anything comes out of their discussion in HR.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> oh my god who the fuck cares if they did it professionally/amateur-like and if jojo is the literal fucking devil
> 
> that's not the point of the thread


That's why the thread will lead to nothing.


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> oh my god who the fuck cares if they did it professionally/amateur-like and if jojo is the literal fucking devil
> 
> that's not the point of the thread



It's really hard to take hypocrites seriously. You can't turn a blind eye to some staff and then grab a pitchfork and go on a witchhunt against the ones you don't like. You either you call it both ways or don't call it all.


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## Chloe (Jan 23, 2019)

can we pls keep this on topic


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> And if she had done that to a staff member or member you didn't give a darn about, you'd just be meming. Quit lying with your righteous crusade.



I just want to add something.

I don't like Kitsune, she inserted herself into both of our sections issues with the moderators, solely so she could virtue signal and score social points by engineering some bans. But even I will agree with her on this

if you have psychological issues and are on medication. You have no business being put in charge of anything that requires strenuous social interaction and having access to peoples personal information.

In the case of the leaked info _she isn't wrong._


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> If the arguments is just going to go to "white knights" then this discussion can't go anywhere. I consider kitsune a friend which is a natural bias, but I also heavily disagree with her on so many topics. She has a long history of being combative and its not pretty, after the trin/dream/wolf/kitsune drama, the new code of conduct was drafted and it their behavior to be under scrutiny. Having a disagreeable opinion isn't something to remove someone for, the conduct in the posts is another story the admin teams fault for letting it slip by, but things have been million miles per hour and I haven't been able to screw my head on straight to figure out up from down.


the core issue is that you're attributing _all _of kitsune's behavior as nothing more than a person who has a penchant to be the contrarian to the typical staff opinion. 

Which is just a blatant misrepresentation. She's not disagreeing with anyone, she's outright walking around shoving her opinion to anyone and everyone. She blatantly stated she blacklisted Gin, Fang, and Avalon. Then she called everyone who disagreed with her and said all the spiel she says is worthless. Her response? To hide in the HR, call everyone mentally unstable and vicious and essentially add us to a permanent blacklist. 

This isn't just inappropriate. This is an outright abuse of power and her position. I want you to _specifically _talk about this line I just wrote and disagree with it if you can. If not, then I wanna see you agree to it or otherwise because it nothing else other than it. 

But yeah, she isn't even just abusing her position as an S-Mod, but also manipulating her friends in the staff to tirelessly defend her. She's just not going to post at all while everyone else does her dirty work. Like how she just spam refreshed the thread while delegating all of her tasks as a cafe mod to Rinoa. 

Should I go further and backtrack into the days where she modded someone "because I like her"? 


Xiammes said:


> You mean if I had more yes men or there was a powerful leader who could quash debates? Yes men would just lead to a whole new list of problems, site would probably be unrecognizable. A actual leader would be a blessing, mbxx worst sin isn't his incompetetance(just his second), but that he half asses his evil overlord position. He leaves site wide and owner tier decisions to a bunch of people who are supposed to be just enforcing rules, confusing what our position entails eternally.



And? 

I don't understand this. You're deferring all issues of the staff, leadership wise, to Mbxx. 

You claim to care and if you really did, you'd directly punish kitsune yourself and leave out any biases. Imagine if this was another staff member. Imagine if this was Nighty in her place? Treat her as such. Hell, take a look at loz. She said racist things and got banned. Kits is being a bigot to people with mental health issues and is unpunished and still staff. 



Xiammes said:


> I can give you some drivel, or I can not. Kitsune is abrasive and overly combative, can be hard to get along with. She was one of the few people willing to be openly the bad cop and would bring up things we miss, I suck at behavior enforcement as I am too soft for example.
> 
> And no, it was not okay to say something like that, but that entire thread childish as fuck and amounted to a bunch of chimps throwing poo at each other. The transgressions in the thread by multiple parties were overlooked because we were in the middle of a shit show and indecisiveness. Kitsunes comment refers to the point where I told both she and Wolf were going to be watched.



Yeah, hard to get along with. Doesn't play well with others. Doesn't do much of anything, actually. Other than argue and force herself down other's throats. 

But yeah, it's ok for her to be like this, why? 

I can't really comment on the context, because I'm viewing it in isolation. So why are the other comments okay to make?


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> oh my god who the fuck cares if they did it professionally/amateur-like and if jojo is the literal fucking devil
> 
> that's not the point of the thread



Might've had better luck focusing on the fact that ane, as an Advisor, somehow has s-mod powers. Kitsune was working the DB section past few days and appealing to them through hearts and reps.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Maybe try your luck with @ane instead. And this time, go with one or two persons and knock on the door gently. Don't bash it at 2 am with with an entire mob. That tends to spook people.


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## Gin (Jan 23, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> You mean if I had more yes men or there was a powerful leader who could quash debates? Yes men would just lead to a whole new list of problems, site would probably be unrecognizable.


i'm pretty sure you're well aware nobody in the alley wants yes men, it's why we were dissatisfied with the way the advisor apps went in the first place, please don't misrepresent our position

you need people who can think critically, challenge outdated procedures, and provide innovative ideas so that the forum can actually improve

what you do not need is people who consistently veto any positive change due to personal grudges while contributing nothing of value themselves, and clog up the HR with pages and pages of unnecessary (and unpleasant) argumentation

you don't want people who are just followers but you sure as hell don't want people who sit in the HR all day just to shoot down every good idea either


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> And this would hold any water if threads in The Alley ever lead to something productive. The Q&C is a miss 80% of the time but it works very rarely. The Alley is 100% miss. Not to mention this wad's post was during that time the witch hunt started and there was a strong mob mentality just waiting to lynch her.



Alley got Nighty unbanned after the thread exposed that nobody in staff had any idea what Nighty wanted and stories were conflicting. Trin had to get outside sources as well as sources within staff just to get the story straight on whether Nighty wanted to return from the ban or not. Kobe was demodded after a thread in the Alley exposed him to have a history of bigoted posts, which would have disqualified him if anyone took a look at the first page of his latest posts (at the time of the thread's creation). That had garnered the attention of Lewd, prior to his leaving of the staff.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juan said:


> oh my god who the fuck cares if they did it professionally/amateur-like and if jojo is the literal fucking devil
> 
> that's not the point of the thread


Pretty much.

Staff has lost all credibility in doing things "their way"

hence the fiestas that occur in the OBD/DBS/Blender/CB/Alley/OL/i can keep going 

im willing to change my ways back like a couple years ago where i could attempt to try and be as civil as possible (check my thread history, i used to always be civil with staff). But after years and months of everything, I kinda get tired of waiting and draw my sword.

but if staff wanna start fresh, then I'm willing to start fresh.

Let's bury the hatches (or swords in my case) and build ourselves anew

@Reznor @Xiammes 

all bad blood has been buried

we're civil men now


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> And if she had done that to a staff member or member you didn't give a darn about, you'd just be meming. Quit lying with your righteous crusade.


Did I or did I not post in your Q&C thread before it got moved to the SCR where you got perma sectioned and I made a post where I said you (or whoever else it was) did nothing wrong and shouldn't be sectioned?


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Alley got Nighty unbanned after the thread exposed that nobody in staff had any idea what Nighty wanted and stories were conflicting. Trin had to get outside sources as well as sources within staff just to get the story straight on whether Nighty wanted to return from the ban or not. Kobe was demodded after a thread in the Alley exposed him to have a history of bigoted posts, which would have disqualified him if anyone took a look at the first page of his latest posts (at the time of the thread's creation). That had garnered the attention of Lewd, prior to his leaving of the staff.


And I keep hearing conflicting reports. At first I heard nighty had requested the ban, then apparently she got unbanned because the staff took a bad decision and realized it and then I heard the ban was never meant to last all that long to begin with and was to quell the flames.


JoJo said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Staff has lost all credibility in doing things "their way"
> 
> ...


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> It's really hard to take hypocrites seriously. You can't turn a blind eye to some staff and then grab a pitchfork and go on a witchhunt against the ones you don't like. You either you call it both ways or don't call it all.


sure, i don't disagree. 

but that's not the point of this thread, specifically, and i think you'd be hardpressed to tell me otherwise. 

you think jojo/chloe/juan is a fucking hypocrite? (not claiming anything, just an example)

make a call out thread, light their ass the fuck up and show everyone they're a bad member. 

but this isn't the place to bring up your grievances. 

not saying they're misplaced, but kitsune fucked up and she needs to answer for it. whether it's to the serious members who know how to make a complaint thread or the memers who only want a good time doesn't matter.


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

that said, if you do make a call out thread, remember to tag me


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## Six (Jan 23, 2019)

With  very few exceptions, the NF staff is about as useful as a year old hernia.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Snake said:


> With  very few exceptions, the NF staff is about as useful as a year old hernia.


There are treatments for hernias. Staff?


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## Sassy (Jan 23, 2019)

Of course anyone's going to be pissed off when they hear that shit like this going on, especially coming from a SMOD.

If she has the balls to talk about other members so willy nilly in negative way then she certainly has the balls to show up in confidence amongst "a lynching mob," especially when she was so confident enough in belittling the individuals she talked about. 


There's a big difference in talking behind one's back in regards to venting or letting it out to one's friend, family or lover, then in regards to negatively letting it out with pettiness, and vindictive intent because of bias views. 

Everyone's been talked about amongst this forum left and right back and forth it's a part of life it happens but their is complete difference between such intent on if it's vindictive and out of malice. 

Just because someone is on medication for their mental health does not mean at all that their incapable of anything or impossible to do anything or contribute anything. That's a biased view judgement that's like saying "oh well because she's got tattoos and piercings she shouldn't work in this company let's not hire her." When in fact that very same indiviual that was wrongfully judged could be a damn amazing employee but when a book gets judged on its cover so easily and shunned away without a solid reason as to why over biased views then of course anyone would get rightfully pissed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juan (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> Pretty much.
> 
> Staff has lost all credibility in doing things "their way"
> 
> ...


*i'm member juan and i approve this message*


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Sassy said:


> If she has the balls to talk about other members so willy nilly in negative way then she certainly has the balls to show up in confidence amongst "a lynching mob," especially when she was so confident enough in belittling the individuals she talked about.


So you expect someone who talks behind people's back to have the courage to face a group openly?


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> And I keep hearing conflicting reports. At first I heard nighty had requested the ban, then apparently she got unbanned because the staff took a bad decision and realized it and then I heard the ban was never meant to last all that long to begin with and was to quell the flames.



The conflicting reports are all from staff. The Alley members that know Nighty were talking to her on discord. Gin himself had fucking screencaps of her saying "yes, I want to come back". There was literally nothing unclear about it. Hell, the Alley members that aren't friends on discord with her knew she had no interest in being banned. She was her usual upbeat, shit posting self.

The real question, to me, is why there was so much miscommunication (if any) about why Nighty had requested a ban and what the conversation with Reznor yielded.


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> So you expect someone who talks behind people's back to have the courage to face a group openly?


No, we expect the people who claim they want to help the forum and such allow her to speak for herself


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## Chloe (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> And I keep hearing conflicting reports. At first I heard nighty had requested the ban, then apparently she got unbanned because the staff took a bad decision and realized it and then I heard the ban was never meant to last all that long to begin with and was to quell the flames.


Sorry we can’t resolve this query until the staff get their story straight.


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## Sassy (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> So you expect someone who talks behind people's back to have the courage to face a group openly?


What JoJo said. It's excatly in that regard. He was to fast before I could reply.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Chloe said:


> sorry we can’t answer this query until the staff get their story straight.



Imagine how much easier it would be to keep a story straight if they didn't repeatedly have to cover up for a staff member that regularly threatened people and abused her position.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> The real question, to me, is why there was so much miscommunication (if any) about why Nighty had requested a ban and what the conversation with Reznor yielded.


Because "MUH LEAKS!". I've advocated transparency from staff for months. For some reason they treat HR like it was some kind of freakin' CIA office. For personal shit such as IP leaks, stalking and the like, I understand keeping it down but they lose their shit if for some reason some trivial information leaks. They need to rework the entire group. This is just the latest of many transgressions and it isn't the last. I'd say blow this bitch down and make me head admin but @Mbxx said no. 


JoJo said:


> No, we expect the people who claim they want to help the forum and such allow her to speak for herself


And I don't believe half of them for one second when they claim they wanna help the forum. Too many sit on their asses getting fat while contributing nothing. Being staff has nice perks, that's why a chunk of them decide to remain there and can't keep away from it.



Chloe said:


> Sorry we can’t resolve this query until the staff get their story straight.


Hi Chloe!


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> And I don't believe half of them for one second when they claim they wanna help the forum. Too many sit on their asses getting fat while contributing nothing. Being staff has nice perks, that's why a chunk of them decide to remain there and can't keep away from it.


This is truly the case, and right here we're faced with the most egregious one of all. This is where it actually matters to see if staff will protect someone who does nothing but hurt the forum or actually try and make change. 

Actions are louder than pr post they can make saying "Man I thought it'd be different," "we didnt know,' "i was optimistic about it" 

I'm fully willing and entirely capable of speaking to them as civily as I can and I will be doing exactly this. Let's hope they can hold up their end.


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## Freechoice (Jan 23, 2019)

The olc gang still here, awesome


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> Did I or did I not post in your Q&C thread before it got moved to the SCR where you got perma sectioned and I made a post where I said you (or whoever else it was) did nothing wrong and shouldn't be sectioned?



I never made a Q&C for my Alley section ban. I was banned at the time it happened lol.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> I never made a Q&C for my Alley section ban. I was banned at the time it happened lol.


It was mine.

Fucking @JoJo  confusing us cause we're both black. Must think we all look alike.


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## Six (Jan 23, 2019)

The staff's greatest irony is that they tell people to be accountable for their fuckups  yet refuse to follow their own advice. Shit is an absolute joke.


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## Demetrius (Jan 23, 2019)

JoJo said:


> This is truly the case, and right here we're faced with the most egregious one of all. This is where it actually matters to see if staff will protect someone who does nothing but hurt the forum or actually try and make change.
> 
> Actions are louder than pr post they can make saying "Man I thought it'd be different," "we didnt know,' "i was optimistic about it"
> 
> I'm fully willing and entirely capable of speaking to them as civily as I can and I will be doing exactly this. Let's hope they can hold up their end.


This is a good path to walk down not just for the sake of civility but actually being able to communicate. Staff get twitchy and on the defense if it's just shouting and flaming, as do members if staff just snarks at them. Neutral tones make it clear your intention isn't to shit stir but to actually talk, and even ignore your greatest instinct to flame. So I just want to  this post. And I wish you luck in
 closing the gap in communication and getting a genuine response out of staff.

PS. Kitsune isn't online right now, just letting y'all know.

If a staff is snarky or deflects, I'm sorry they did/if they do that. It shouldn't happen. But before you riot, there's people that are able to calm down and relax and see eye to eye with you. It's a PR crisis so it takes a lot of thinking instead of just blowing shit out of our asses.

Goose is a reasonable lad, and fucking amazing at it. So is Kenneth. But they're likely asleep, timezones OP.

Reactions: Like 3


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## God Movement (Jan 23, 2019)

There’s something very ironic about all of this.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> This is a good path to walk down not just for the sake of civility but actually being able to communicate. Staff get twitchy and on the defense if it's just shouting and flaming, as do members if staff just snarks at them. Neutral tones make it clear your intention isn't to shit stir but to actually talk, and even ignore your greatest instinct to flame. So I just want to  this post. And I wish you luck in
> closing the gap in communication and getting a genuine response out of staff.
> 
> PS. Kitsune isn't online right now, just letting y'all know.
> ...



The sad thing is I think we already got our genuine response out of staff, and that's that since so many other people do it, that means it's fine (thanks, I guess, Xiammes?).

So it's just kind of whatever at this point.


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## Demetrius (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> The sad thing is I think we already got our genuine response out of staff, and that's that since so many other people do it, that means it's fine (thanks, I guess, Xiammes?).
> 
> So it's just kind of whatever at this point.


:/ I hope not.


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> :/ I hope not.



Destaffed again


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> Destaffed again


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> :/ I hope not.



Well, I'm honestly not expecting much from some of the same staff members that reinstated her to full power, helped cover up things like the toroxus incident, and completely ignored outright threats against members and repeated "kys" statements made because "oh hey, it's just krory" (I guess it's only offensive when WAD does it?).

Thanks, though.


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## Demetrius (Jan 23, 2019)

i was one of the leakers


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

>Trin gets demodded for leaking
>Kitsune doesn't

Yup. Checks out.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> i was one of the leakers



Wait.

Did you step down as admin?


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## JoJo (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> i was one of the leakers




woah i didn't know that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

You know, you'd think it'd be pretty telling to people that some staff were so disgusted with the way she acted, and the way it was covered up, that _*multiple*_ people leaked but... oh well.


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Staff should know we don't actually give a darn about what's going on in HR/HO or whatever hidden section they got. Who kept posting that meme about the Barbara Streisand effect? Staff should have taken the hint. You ain't hiding top-secret classified info. Quit acting like you are and kick out the useless members.


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## Demetrius (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Wait.
> 
> Did you step down as admin?


nah i got booted like nighty did

fine by me, pretty well deserved in my case imho


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## Brian (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> This is a good path to walk down not just for the sake of civility but actually being able to communicate. Staff get twitchy and on the defense if it's just shouting and flaming, as do members if staff just snarks at them. Neutral tones make it clear your intention isn't to shit stir but to actually talk, and even ignore your greatest instinct to flame. So I just want to  this post. And I wish you luck in
> closing the gap in communication and getting a genuine response out of staff.
> 
> PS. Kitsune isn't online right now, just letting y'all know.
> ...



holy shit I was _just_ thinking that this post might get you demodding and then I refreshed


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

I'm going to start a rep betting pool for how long it takes before Kitsune takes Trin's admin spot.


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Brian said:


> holy shit I was _just_ thinking that this post might get you demodding and then I refreshed



It wasn't this post -- she was one of the leakers because thankfully not _everyone_ on the staff is a complete sociopath. Although now she's blaming herself when she was just trying to stand up to a bully.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> nah i got booted like nighty did
> 
> fine by me, pretty well deserved in my case imho



BOOT THEM BACK.


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

Damn Kitsune is clearing the Division quick 


Is she the Jon jones of NF


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## Six (Jan 23, 2019)

TriN said:


> nah i got booted like nighty did
> 
> fine by me, pretty well deserved in my case imho


>Admitting you were responsible for your own fuck up
You were too good for the staff.


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> It wasn't this post -- she was one of the leakers because thankfully not _everyone_ on the staff is a complete sociopath. Although now she's blaming herself when she was just trying to stand up to a bully.



Tbh, I doubt she's really all that upset. If we can have meaningful change result from this thread, I'm sure Trin will happily give up being in staff.


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## Brian (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> It wasn't this post -- she was one of the leakers because thankfully not _everyone_ on the staff is a complete sociopath. Although now she's blaming herself when she was just trying to stand up to a bully.



Ye I just saw, seems like Kitsune is the only mod immune from getting punished for leaking


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## Krory (Jan 23, 2019)

Brian said:


> Ye I just saw, seems like Kitsune is the only mod immune from getting punished for leaking



Seems like Kits is the only mod immune from getting punished for _anything_. Even after the shit she said that got her demodded before, she just got Reznor to give it back to her a few months later.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 23, 2019)

Anyone else feel like Mbxx is just gonna show up do some funky shit?


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## Chloe (Jan 23, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> Anyone else feel like Mbxx is just gonna show up do some funky shit?


sasuga


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## Blacku (Jan 23, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Tbh, I doubt she's really all that upset. If we can have meaningful change result from this thread, *I'm sure Trin will happily give up being in staff.*


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## Raiden (Jan 23, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> Anyone else feel like Mbxx is just gonna show up do some funky shit?




*Spoiler*: __


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 23, 2019)

Raiden said:


> *Spoiler*: __


Half the forum just disappears


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Raiden said:


> *Spoiler*: __


He's much closer to Zeno than he is to Thanos.


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## Brian (Jan 23, 2019)

Krory said:


> Seems like Kits is the only mod immune from getting punished for _anything_. Even after the shit she said that got her demodded before, she just got Reznor to give it back to her a few months later.



Reznor needs to be demodded as well, thirstlords enabling her behavior are just as bad


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## Juub (Jan 23, 2019)

Brian said:


> Reznor needs to be demodded as well, thirstlords enabling her behavior are just as bad


I wonder when people will realize throughout the generations of bad staff, @Reznor is the one common denominator.


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## Six (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> He's much closer to Zeno than he is to Thanos.


Equally childish.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 23, 2019)

I like how Reznor just up and left in the middle of all this nonsense


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## Brian (Jan 23, 2019)

Juub said:


> I wonder when people will realize throughout the generations of bad staff, @Reznor is the one common denominator.



I always knew he was but who can get rid of him? hopefully MBXX accidentally deletes his account


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## Aphrodite (Jan 24, 2019)



Reactions: Like 1


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

so 

it's ok for kits to leak but not trin?

staff are very well aware of what happened during the trin deletion fiasco, but that's suddenly fine? 

kits is allowed to make bigoted comments? 

kits is allowed to do whatever she wants and just be protected by the staff?


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## Nataly (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> Staff should know we don't actually give a darn about what's going on in HR/HO or whatever hidden section they got. Who kept posting that meme about the Barbara Streisand effect? Staff should have taken the hint. You ain't hiding top-secret classified info. Quit acting like you are and kick out the useless members.


The Streisand effect, @Luck brought it up


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

JoJo said:


> so
> 
> it's ok for kits to leak but not trin?
> 
> ...



Yes.

Because Xiammes and Reznor said so.


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

Pictured alleyminati HQ after failed Kitsunegate attempt


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Xiammes said:


> I guess you can call the deadlock a fillabuster or something along those lines, but we are still resolving the issue.



How is the issue going to be resolved? Where is the transparency in this so that we know things will transpire fairly and objectively? 



> There were multiple people baiting and flaming in that thread, it got mostly looked over(which you can say is my fault) since it happened almost immediately after the nighty situation.



So that leads into the adage: "Who polices the police?" in this situation. But besides that, again, you've admitted that Kitsune can be extremely combative, hostile, and down right nasty if things or people, regular posters or current/former Staff, that don't take her side. Why is that allowed? Why if she or other Staff can't look at things objectively or fairly, are they allowed to throw their weight or be allowed their voices on matters that don't impact them?

And you've said many times to me and others that the Staff is organized in a "horizontal" structure, meaning there is no direct top-down hierarchy; i.e. an Smod doesn't get to simply order around a mod, an Admin doesn't tell an Smod what to do. So if that's the case, the Staff is a team that works democratically (outside of Mbxx getting involved) right?

If an issue is an impasse, why not go with the majority which is the simplest way to resolve things. I.e. let's say 10 mods, 3 smods, and 1 admin agree to the advisorship of three posters, and six other Staff disagree for whatever reasons (personal, bias, disapproval, etc...), do you simply stop things there because there's a strong minority even if they are only still THE MINORITY and not the MAJORITY for how the decision will result in? 



> I can say this till I go blue, but nighty's ban was handled without us even coming close to a full discussion if she should be banned at all.



All I'll say on that was there was direct contradictions in what several people like Reznor and Preet were claiming, and what actually transpired. The nice way of putting it is "we fucked up collectively" and the harsh way is "those two lied to our faces and back tracked hard when evidence was presented showing them that". But I do agree, that entire situation was a fuck up but knowing Kitsune was heavily involved in that as well doesn't really help things.


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## Six (Jan 24, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> Pictured alleyminati HQ after failed Kitsunegate attempt


More like:


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> Pictured alleyminati HQ after failed Kitsunegate attempt



What was it Dutch Schultz said when he tried to make war on Luciano's proxies?

"Some ya win, some ya fuck'n lose"


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

Chloe said:


> can we pls keep this on topic

Reactions: Like 1


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## Freechoice (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> That's why the thread will lead to nothing.



This thread will probably lead to nothing not because of JoJo or how he behaved

Are you daft bro, fuck out of here

It's because kitsune has xiammes and others in her back pocket

as regular noobs we have no power other than voices that can be silenced with a ban or hell just straight up ignored like I've seen many times over the years

*-nope-*

Reactions: Like 1


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Suigetsu said:


> What goes around comes around.



I just wish this came with our brother @Es being allowed back, given the based most of their nonsense reasons to ban him around virtue signaling Natty, who just attempted to slander an idea section to dodge the accusations Es brought against Natty.

Accusations that when tested, were proven false no less.



Freechoice said:


> It's because kitsune has xiammes and others in her back pocket



the OBD had Xiammes support and it didn't amount to anything, much as he tried to help reform both the staff and our section, because Reznor, Soca, the Cafe allied mods and Khaleesi blocked him at every turn.

You understand the power of one man...one who is out of power and seems to be in a self imposed exile.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Freechoice said:


> This thread will probably lead to nothing not because of JoJo or how he behaved
> 
> Are you daft bro, fuck out of here
> 
> ...


Your avatar is my reaction to your post.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 24, 2019)

Not a fan of this DBS and OBD vs Alley thing. Have a Royal Rumble after corrupt staff are gone. You're playing into their hands by taking the convo away from them. 

The lack of self-awareness Kitsune displays in those posts is incredible. It reeks of delusion and projection. She says she doesn't want volatile personalities in the HO, while at the same time actively baiting and flaming. This is not someone who debates in good faith. It's someone who only wants to get their way regardless of whether they are wrong. 

Someone that bad at debating should not be a voice in any decisions. Keep her doing low level shit if you want to keep her. I wonder how many times she uses the phrase ''I feel'' instead of ''I think'' in those staff debates. It's a base way to garner sympathy from people who should know better. 

Good on people like WW and Trinity for actually having the backbone to stand up to someone who is ironically clearly 'unstable'.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Snake said:


> More like:


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## MrPopo (Jan 24, 2019)

Imo the continuous spamming of threads and mass tagging of @Kistune in the alley ruined all chances of this thread leading to anything constructive happening.

Now onto the topic of this thread, as a lurker I nothing about Kitsune. However from the screen caps that are shown it is clear that she is using personal baises getting in the way of secession making which is probalamtic and not something a staff member should do.

Another point is consistency. Previous staff  members have been destaffed due to leaking then Kitsune should be destaffed as well for leaking.


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Imo the continuous spamming of threads and mass tagging of @Kistune in the alley ruined all chances of this thread leading to anything constructive happening.
> 
> Now onto the topic of this thread, as a lurker I nothing about Kitsune. However from the screen caps that are shown it is clear that she is using personal baises getting in the way of secession making which is probalamtic and not something a staff member should do.
> 
> Another point is consistency. Previous staff  members have been destaffed due to leaking then Kitsune should be destaffed as well for leaking.


Yeah she's fucked up on somethings but every staff member has tbh.


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## Matariki (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Imo the continuous spamming of threads and mass tagging of @Kistune in the alley ruined all chances of this thread leading to anything constructive happening.



a toxic section with constant drama.

[HASHTAG]#deletethealley[/HASHTAG]


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Imo the continuous spamming of threads and mass tagging of @Kistune in the alley ruined all chances of this thread leading to anything constructive happening.
> 
> Now onto the topic of this thread, as a lurker I nothing about Kitsune. However from the screen caps that are shown it is clear that she is using personal baises getting in the way of secession making which is probalamtic and not something a staff member should do.
> 
> Another point is consistency. Previous staff  members have been destaffed due to leaking then Kitsune should be destaffed as well for leaking.



The spamming of threads happened because ane (who is an _advisor_ yet somehow has the powers of an S-Mod) kept deleting threads within two minutes tops of them being posted (though JoJo's approach was also less-than-subtle, however he and Gin both got thread-banned for it but JoJo got his lifted). Shit did get out of hand and people like WAD did settle on personal attacks and threats, which was unfortunate.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> The spamming of threads happened because ane (who is an _advisor_ yet somehow has the powers of an S-Mod) kept deleting threads within two minutes tops of them being posted (though JoJo's approach was also less-than-subtle



? The threads say Marcelle Rinoa and Rez deleted them.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> ? The threads say Marcelle Rinoa and Rez deleted them.



Several staff previously said it was ane.  Where do you see, since the original threads were hard-deleted, or did you get access back?


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> Several staff previously said it was ane.  Where do you see, since the original threads were hard-deleted, or did you get access back?



Am... I in some sort of special user group? I'll go take a screen cap for you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Am... I in some sort of special user group? I'll go take a screen cap for you.



thx m8. When threads first started disappearing (not just being locked), some sources were asked and all came back with ane. So either they lied and trying to throw ane under the bus, or just assumed.  Nothing would surprise me about anyone left on the staff anymore.


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## MrPopo (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> The spamming of threads happened because ane (who is an _advisor_ yet somehow has the powers of an S-Mod) kept deleting threads within two minutes tops of them being posted (though JoJo's approach was also less-than-subtle, however he and Gin both got thread-banned for it but JoJo got his lifted). Shit did get out of hand and people like WAD did settle on personal attacks and threats, which was unfortunate.


Should of made a thread in the qc first.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> thx m8. When threads first started disappearing (not just being locked), some sources were asked and all came back with ane. So either they lied and trying to throw ane under the bus, or just assumed.  Nothing would surprise me about anyone left on the staff anymore.



Just making sure we're talking about the 7 deleted threads in the alley yesterday and not something else. You can't see them?


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Should of made a thread in the qc first.



p much

Still better than the meme video JoJo wanted to do.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Just making sure we're talking about the 7 deleted threads in the alley yesterday and not something else. You can't see them?



That's correct -- I just checked again to confirm, I do not see them.


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## Seraphoenix (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Imo the continuous spamming of threads and mass tagging of @Kistune in the alley ruined all chances of this thread leading to anything constructive happening.


Doubtful as she was never going to pander to the ''20 most unstable, vicious and drama-mongering people on the forum'' regardless of how well worded any complaint could be. 

Besides, a mob forming doesn't absolve you of answering for your transgressions.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> That's correct -- I just checked again to confirm, I do not see them.



Lol guess there are some buried perms that didn't get unchecked somewhere. Not that they're important.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Lol guess there are some buried perms that didn't get unchecked somewhere. Not that they're important.



So either someone is trying to sabotage ane or, more likely, sending out fake leaks.  Hard informative, ty.


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## Ryan (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm just going to be here to say I told you so when this forum dies out of inactivity

I've been on too many forums bigger than this, it's all funny to me

you won't get anywhere when the younger and more active staff members keep getting booted


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

"The Leakers didn't have an agenda"

Looks like that arguments gotten thrown out the window


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Heh they fixed my perms so I can't see the threads anymore  That's adorable guys.


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## God Movement (Jan 24, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> "The Leakers didn't have an agenda"
> 
> Looks like that arguments gotten thrown out the window



Isn't it blatantly obvious that they DO have an agenda


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## White Wolf (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> So either someone is trying to sabotage ane or, more likely, sending out fake leaks.  Hard informative, ty.


Sounds more like a non-staff assumption, but with how many leaks there actually are who knows. AFAIK she's currently powerless after the last 2-3 times _someone _gave her powers behind the retired/advisor rank and _someone _complained to have them removed. 



Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Heh they fixed my perms so I can't see the threads anymore  That's adorable guys.


 who woulda thunk it...


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Seiko said:


> you fool. you don't reveal a hidden perk like that



I won't miss it tbh it was an eyesore.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

White Wolf said:


> Sounds more like a non-staff assumption, but with how many leaks there actually are who knows. AFAIK she's currently powerless after the last 2-3 times _someone _gave her powers behind the retired/advisor rank and _someone _complained to have them removed.
> 
> 
> who woulda thunk it...



Well, with the way they handle things it wouldn't surprise me she got them back when she was randomly advisored for the advisor interviews.  But no, definitely wasn't a non-staff.


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Heh they fixed my perms so I can't see the threads anymore  That's adorable guys.


it took how long to notice


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Chloe said:


> it took how long to notice



Prooooooooobably over a year. Like I still saw the alley, whatever it was called back then, when it was made invisible so we're probably talking all the way back to when I left in 2017.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

God Movement said:


> Isn't it blatantly obvious that they DO have an agenda


Gotta love the timing of all these events. It’s very awkward.


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## God Movement (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> Gotta love the timing of all these events. It’s very awkward.



Naw. It's all a coincidence you see. That's the trick. None of these events which happened within 24 hours of one another are related at all.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

God Movement said:


> Naw. It's all a coincidence you see. That's the trick. None of these events which happened within 24 hours of one another are related at all.



It's easy to dismiss it all as a conspiracy theory, until you look past the self gratification and shallowness. Or in this case, a neurotic compulsion for nonsense drama.



Juub said:


> Gotta love the timing of all these events. It’s very awkward.



Almost like it was hastily executed to negate a clusterfuck already in progress.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

@Xiammes 
Here to give my 2 cents. 
Above all, what the leaks demonstrate to me is that Kitsune plays a key part in perpetuating the mods vs members dichotomy. Instead of seeing the staff as part of the forum and servants to its members, she clearly sees you guys as above and better than the rest. This is why she wants to protect her precious little club so bad from any potential threats. This leads to a couple of very bad things
-Disconnect from the regular members. More likely to toss complaints aside because "what do they know". Ignoring buzz from the forums. And vice versa, members can come to resent staff up in their ivory tower.
-Locking up and becoming a big circlejerk in HR, which has happened in previous years where staff were more concerned with shitposting amongst themselves than doing shit on the forum. And big surprise, Kitsune has shown to be precisely such a mod, never posting on the regular forum anymore.

As you can see, this has already happened, with Kitsune blatantly being in "staff vs members" mindset and combined with her combative attitude, clashing hardly with others (WW, Nighty) who aren't inclined that way and want to engage more with the members and consider them equals. This leads to a toxic culture in HR as you have yourself admitted, and leads to angry members. You don't need yes men, but you don't need this shit either. 

In summary, it seems very clear you need to rid yourself of Kitsune if you ever want to try and fix HR and staff culture.



And that's WITHOUT me starting about how her disgusting mental health jabs, snarkily drawing previous disagreements with WW into a debate and leaking should be enough to get her destaffed.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Duke Ysmir01 (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Esdese (Jan 24, 2019)

Free Es!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Esdese said:


> Free Es!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Create a separate thread if you want to discuss that, as that is an unrelated issue.


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Esdese said:


> Free Es!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



Who dat be in your horribly cropped google image searched avatar


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## Juan (Jan 24, 2019)

i go to sleep for 7 fucking hours and nf bursts down into flames


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## Courier Six (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> Who dat be in your horribly cropped google image searched avatar


If you’re talking about the woman then I think it’s Asako from Grisaia


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Not bad taste, Sam. Not bad at all.


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## Santoryu (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> Who dat be in your horribly cropped google image searched avatar



If you’re talking about the women then I think it’s Asako from Grisaia


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## Prince Vegeta (Jan 24, 2019)

So many cry babies 




Where is the main character kitsune btw?

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Duke Ysmir01 (Jan 24, 2019)

Roman Coliseum, NF version


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## Shrike (Jan 24, 2019)

Members:

I understand that some of you guys dislike each other. It's normal.

But hating a whole section for a few members you dislike and 'warring' with them is pretty fucking stupid. Trolling between the sections is the usual "haha" shit, which will always happen, but trying your damnest to get everyone from one section banned or the like is just being an imbecile.

Everyone has told some part of the truth here, and everyone has a case going for them. Some had good arguments, some had idiotic 'jabs', but once you started being civil with each other you saw that there are lots of things in common (of fucking course, there is no such thing as faction wars).

--

Staff:

There is this thing called a community. Moderating a community means constantly bettering it, not feeling empowered because 'muh imaginary internet power to ban ppl'. Working on that means working WITH the community as a whole. You basically shut yourselves in the HO and argue and plot there. Paranoid about the leaks? Be more open and honest and you won't be. You feel that you are a better person then the leaker? Go out into the community and prove that. Nobody is fucking stopping you.

I know some of these guys are out for your blood and are being overly aggressive, making things look like a witch hunt etc, but your basic responsibility is talking with them - ALL of them, all of the sections, especially Smods, Global mods and Admins. Jesus, Santi goes out to do his PR talk and gets shredded, but it didn't stop him from trying to talk, right? Some of the members hate your guts? Okay, so fucking what. No reason to get scared as shit and hole up (and this isn't directed only to Kitsune at all). The only people who do this are the ones who actually do have something to hide or those who will try to play it off like "haha, look at this cute attempt to take my mod powers", which is pretty headache-inducing.

If you want to go the route of "lul guy, you take this too seriously, we are just having fun as mods too", okay. But consider that some members here have 150k+ posts, and this is basically their home. Want to make that home comfy for them? Fucking talk to them.

Already wasted 20 mins typing this shit, so I'm out. Do whatever.

Reactions: Like 10


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Shrike said:


> Jesus, Santi goes out to do his PR talk and gets shredded, but it didn't stop him from trying to talk, right?



Don’t use me as the example, are you trying to scare them off for good? Look at the outcomes of all those threads. Sheer anarchy.

I’m simply a masochist, and I relish the small opportunity to subtly tell you all how dumb I think you all are amidst the chaos.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> Don’t use me as the example, are you trying to scare them off for good? Look at the outcomes of all those threads. Sheer anarchy.
> 
> I’m simply a masochist, and I relish the small opportunity to subtly tell you all how dumb I think you all are amidst the chaos.



Who do you want to throw to the wolves then, Santi?


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Jokes aside, gr8 post @Shrike

A lot of y’all piss me off a lot (a lot I say), but nothing brings me more satisfaction than seeing you all having fun and shitposting; and it’s only through talking to you all that I find out what things people enjoy and what needs different approaches. That’s the only gratification I get out of any of this (aside from the large avatar I waited over a decade to try and win, and now we got prizes and avatars flowing like fucking running water )

I may not always make the best decisions or judgements in the moment, but I always want you guys to feel that you’re represented and the best interest of the community is being looked out for.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Who do you want to throw to the wolves then, Santi?



@Chloe she’s the President, she must take responsibility.


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> @Chloe she’s the President, she must take responsibility.


woooooooow


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> @Chloe she’s the President, she must take responsibility.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> @Chloe she’s the President, she must take responsibility.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 24, 2019)

Chloe said:


> woooooooow



The real betrayal is Brian agreeing with the post.


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

E a t
S l e e p
I m p e a c h


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> E a t
> S l e e p
> I m p e a c h



Tfw this thread exposes Santi's role in Didi overthrowing the legitimately* elected President of NF.


*Self-declared


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Still have not seen any actual rebuttal for how Kitsune's actions don't  equate to being destaffed in light of what I, Jojo, and Didi have said.


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Still have not seen any actual rebuttal for how Kitsune's actions don't  equate to being destaffed in light of what I, Jojo, and Didi have said.


It’s kinda funny, they tell us to come into the Q&C, but it derails and they never respond. 

Like usual.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and am assuming that right now HR is a garbagefire and they're loudly panicking and trying to figure out how to resolve the situation, so it may take a bit longer before they've decided on a response.


Instead of just assuming that they're willingly ignoring us.

Don't make me regret this nice assumption, staff

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

MrPopo said:


> Should of made a thread in the qc first.


pretty sure a big reason it began in the alley was precisely what's happening in this thread - dipshits derailing it with factional beef as opposed to letting it stay on topic (kitsune's unacceptable behavior in the hr)


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Didi said:


> I'm giving them the benefit of the doubt and am assuming that right now HR is a garbagefire and they're loudly panicking and trying to figure out how to resolve the situation, so it may take a bit longer before they've decided on a response.
> 
> 
> Instead of just assuming that they're willingly ignoring us.
> ...


You've been here for over a decade and you STILL give staff the benefit of the doubt?

You have a good heart Didi.


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

the thread degenerated into garbage anyway but unfortunately this would've happened regardless of where it was made, for differing reasons

ultimately we were frustrated, and had every right to be, and we acted on that frustration


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> You've been here for over a decade and you STILL give staff the benefit of the doubt?
> 
> You have a good heart Didi.



I usually don't tbh but I'm willing to give them a pass just this once
as I'm sure this is quite the situation to resolve


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

This happens every time members try and be civil. They get met with nothing or obstacles such as other members coming in and spewing shit and it ultimately devolves into members wanting blood and being meanies 

iunno I’m trying to be respectful and civil so I expect the same 

and I’ll give the benefit of the doubt 

(@Kitsune )

Reactions: Like 2


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Jojo being civil - more evidence that the world has shifted into an alternate bizarro timeline


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## Owl (Jan 24, 2019)

Delete the alley and its members. It's the source of all the toxicity in the forums. Also demod Trinity for not doing shit but enable the toxic members.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Owl said:


> Delete the alley and its members. It's the source of all the toxicity in the forums. Also demod Trinity for not doing shit but enable the toxic members.



Not the focus of this thread, go be salty somewhere else instead of trying to derail our civil discussion on the Kitsune topic


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## Owl (Jan 24, 2019)

Didi said:


> Not the focus of this thread, go be salty somewhere else instead of trying to derail our civil discussion on the Kitsune topic



See this? Each and every member of the section has shown behaviors like this. Next thing you know you'll have shit slinging, which is a daily occurrence in the alley.


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## Owl (Jan 24, 2019)

Without the alley and its fragile members, there won't be any toxicity in the forums. I rest my case.


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## Karma (Jan 24, 2019)

Owl said:


> Without the alley and its fragile members, there won't be any toxicity in the forums. I rest my case.


Didnt u make a thread just this week asking for people to be killed?


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Owl said:


> See this? Each and every member of the section has shown behaviors like this. Next thing you know you'll have shit slinging, which is a daily occurrence in the alley.



I politely asked you to leave and not start this shit here. Not sure what they're supposed to see.



Owl said:


> Without the alley and its fragile members, there won't be any toxicity in the forums. I rest my case.



Ironic when you're the fragile one, upset that he didn't fit in at the Alley and now on a salty crusade against it.
See, that's what I could've said the first time but I didn't because I wanted to be polite in hopes that you'd take the hint and fuck off.
Now either stop posting on this subject or if you have a legitimate gripe with the Alley, make a separate thread. This thread is about Kitsune.


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## Owl (Jan 24, 2019)

Didi said:


> I politely asked you to leave and not start this shit here. Not sure what they're supposed to see.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm being honest and polite for civility's sake. But look at your attitude, toeboy, a little criticism about your section and honest opinion of the section's culture sets you off to have a breakdown. It just goes to show that it truly is the section of toxicity and that it should be deleted and so do you.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

JoJo said:


> It’s kinda funny, they tell us to come into the Q&C, but it derails and they never respond.
> 
> Like usual.



That seems to be the case yeah. And so far Reznor, Kitsune, and others have yet to step in to account for what has happened despite Trinity telling us Reznor gave the okay for this.



Owl said:


> Delete the alley and its members. It's the source of all the toxicity in the forums. Also demod Trinity for not doing shit but enable the toxic members.



You are like the last person to talk about anyone being "toxic", unironically. And I feel like this isn't the place to discuss why you are salty over your reception in the Alley.


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## Owl (Jan 24, 2019)

Also I'm not responding to peopl


Fang said:


> You are like the last person to talk about anyone being "toxic", unironically. And I feel like this isn't the place to discuss why you are salty over your reception in the Alley.



Fang, look at you. Just because people beat you in a fight doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're not toxic. No, you were just beaten like a roach. But let's go back to the topic. Delete the alley.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Owl said:


> I'm being honest and polite for civility's sake. But look at your attitude, toeboy, a little criticism about your section and honest opinion of the section's culture sets you off to have a breakdown. It just goes to show that it truly is the section of toxicity and that it should be deleted and so do you.



How is this a breakdown? I'm just asking you to voice your opinions in a different thread as I do not want to derail the topic



Owl said:


> Also I'm not responding to peopl
> 
> 
> Fang, look at you. Just because people beat you in a fight doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're not toxic. No, you were just beaten like a roach. But let's go back to the topic. Delete the alley.



Let's go back to the topic indeed, which is Kitsune.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Owl said:


> Also I'm not responding to peopl
> 
> 
> Fang, look at you. Just because people beat you in a fight doesn't mean that all of a sudden you're not toxic. No, you were just beaten like a roach. But let's go back to the topic. Delete the alley.



I'm not sure I follow what you are saying but regardless your nonsense is falling on deaf ears here. Go away, go make a separate thread in the Q&C if you want to complain about the Alley or its regulars there in your own thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

I’ve dealt with the distraction. You guys can proceed.

Reactions: Like 7


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Well that's at least one obstacle removed thankfully.


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## Xiammes (Jan 24, 2019)

Not ignoring you guys by the way, just woke up and trying to sort through some shit and figure things out

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

@JoJo 

Rephrase and compile all the questions you 100% want answered, because I’m not going to look through this thread to find them.

Reactions: Like 2


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> @JoJo
> 
> Rephrase and compile all the questions you 100% want answered, because I’m not going to look through this thread to find them.


On mobile and in class 



Not sure if the link properly works 

but the post where I said like 5+ questions to shroomy 

also any question anyone else has should be answered too, I suppose


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

I can post more when I’m less busy


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Shiiiit I’ma need a computer for this. I was a fool to try and tackle such 200 high IQ inquiries while phoneposting.


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

I will address this later today in full. Thanks for your patience. I was busy all day yesterday and it was hard to keep up on everything as it unfolded. Let me get fully caught up and I’ll be available for discussion in a few hours.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

1. 99% of her forum activity is sitting in the HR and vetoing decisions, causing unnecessary internal conflict, and shittalking people - why are (most of) the other staff ok with this?

2. she has explicitly insulted members and staff alike from the safety of the HR, and used personal grudges and poor judgments on people's mental health to push her own agenda - why are (most of) the other staff ok with this?

3. what /does/ kitsune actually contribute besides being a thorn in the side of people who want to see progress and positive change?

you can start with these

@Santi


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

4. in an objective sense, is her presence in the HR really so valuable as to be worth sacrificing nighty, trinity, and (i'm assuming) white wolf's contributions to the forum, which were all tangibly far greater than hers?


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## 青月光 (Jan 24, 2019)

Can't we all get along?


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

Notice how he can’t get his point across without flaming?


Yet he’s the “perfect advisor candidate”


Let’s be honest with ourselves disregarding Kitsune. In no way is Gin a good advisor Candidate. He displays the same traits as the corrupt mods before him.


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> Can't we all get along?


quite honestly i'm trying to keep this civil despite the staff's terrible showing but when people who have nothing to do with the topic in hand come in here to try and stir shit up due to their grudges against the alley/some of its members then nah fam, they can fuck right off


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> 4. in an objective sense, is her presence in the HR really so valuable as to be worth sacrificing nighty, trinity, and (i'm assuming) white wolf's contributions to the forum, which were all tangibly far greater than hers?



And Lewd, I'm willing to bet.


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> And Lewd, I'm willing to bet.


i know less about where his loyalties lie but considering he left around the same time and seems like a pretty decent guy yeah, probably


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> i know less about where his loyalties lie but considering he left around the same time and seems like a pretty decent guy yeah, probably



Yeah I don't know anything about him personally but considering him and WW seemed to have stepped down at the same time, and they both admitted that staff-related BS was part (not the entire) reason...


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## Esdese (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> Not bad taste, Sam. Not bad at all.


I always have excellent taste


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## 青月光 (Jan 24, 2019)

I'm gonna give my thoughts regarding staff in general.

From what I understand, people are chosen as mods thanks to what they can contribute to the organization of the forums right? (This disregarding the "corruption" part that's present everywhere around the world unfortunately).

When this is the only/most important parameter to put people in power you'll get all sorts of people that most likely aren't fit to have power/lead. Most tend to be problematic.

This happens everywhere in society. They may be exceptional employees but to be a leader a whole different skillset is needed. And there's an illusion that someone who works a lot knows how to lead.

What I'm trying to say is that the ones who should have power should be the most humane people, at least at the top. So you should get someone who's a good person as adm.

Tl:dr

Get someone who cares about others.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> From what I understand, people are chosen as mods thanks to what they can contribute to the organization of the forums right?



No, not really. There is no real criteria tbh.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> I'm gonna give my thoughts regarding staff in general.
> 
> From what I understand, people are chosen as mods thanks to what they can contribute to the organization of the forums right? (This disregarding the "corruption" part that's present everywhere around the world unfortunately).



Pretty sure that's the most optimistic thing I've seen posted.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> No, not really. There is no real criteria tbh.


Just don't be hated by any staff member. One person saying no to you can be enough to block you.


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> I'm gonna give my thoughts regarding staff in general.
> 
> From what I understand, people are chosen as mods thanks to what they can contribute to the organization of the forums right? (This disregarding the "corruption" part that's present everywhere around the world unfortunately).
> 
> ...


most of them fulfill neither of the qualifications in this post

they're usually '''safe''' posters who won't ruffle any feathers and will just perform their usually non-strenuous function and keep to themselves

occasionally someone with the capacity for original thought like trin slips through the cracks, but they're usually done away with, and for every mod like trin that gets added there are usually 2 who are complete sociopaths and value nothing besides e-power


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## 青月光 (Jan 24, 2019)

I see.

This looks like politics





Gin the Nighty said:


> most of them fulfill neither of the qualifications in this post
> 
> they're usually '''safe''' posters who won't ruffle any feathers and will just perform their usually non-strenuous function and keep to themselves
> 
> occasionally someone with the capacity for original thought like trin slips through the cracks, but they're usually done away with, and for every mod like trin that gets added there are usually 2 who are complete sociopaths and value nothing besides e-power



That's really the problem though.

Personally you can tell how someone is if you're decently trained in some specific areas.

In a forum it's hard to differentiate because it's a lot easier to filter what you want to show.


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## MO (Jan 24, 2019)

Santi said:


> Jokes aside, gr8 post @Shrike
> 
> A lot of y’all piss me off a lot (a lot I say), but nothing brings me more satisfaction than seeing you all having fun and shitposting; and it’s only through talking to you all that I find out what things people enjoy and what needs different approaches. That’s the only gratification I get out of any of this (aside from the large avatar I waited over a decade to try and win, and now we got prizes and avatars flowing like fucking running water )
> 
> I may not always make the best decisions or judgements in the moment, but I always want you guys to feel that you’re represented and the best interest of the community is being looked out for.


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## God Movement (Jan 24, 2019)

@Kitsune


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## Ryan (Jan 24, 2019)

In all honesty people underestimate how much can be done without mods support. The position itself is useful but it isn’t actually needed to bring real change. The most influential posters on this site at its peak weren’t mods.

I understand the complaints against Kitsune, but I don’t get the helplessness people display when it comes to making this place better, especially the recent registrations. They aren’t helping anyone. I understand people can’t be bothered after a while, but you don’t need to give up your position just because things aren’t going well at the moment. Unfortunately no one is getting paid to do this so in most cases it isn’t worth sticking around.

Also, as much as I love trashing mods, I think some members and mods on both sides get invested too much in the “struggle” and get burned out.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Ryan said:


> In all honesty people underestimate how much can be done without mods support. The position itself is useful but it isn’t actually needed to bring real change. The most influential posters on this site at its peak weren’t mods.
> 
> I understand the complaints against Kitsune, but I don’t get the helplessness people display when it comes to making this place better, especially the recent registrations. They aren’t helping anyone. I understand people can’t be bothered after a while, but you don’t need to give up your position just because things aren’t going well at the moment. Unfortunately no one is getting paid to do this so in most cases it isn’t worth sticking around.
> 
> Also, as much as I love trashing mods, I think some members and mods on both sides get invested too much in the “struggle” and get burned out.


This. We control NF. The mods don't.

Let's burn this friend down already.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> I see.
> 
> This looks like politics



More politics than it probably should be but there is at least the hope that the person chosen will keep the section in question stable and satisfied without turning into a shitter. How successful that is? Eh... 



Ryan said:


> Unfortunately no one is getting paid to do this so in most cases it isn’t worth sticking around.


I mean this is the real issue. Why would I want to turn my time on the forum into utter misery? My enjoyment of the forum has gone waaaaaaaay down ever since I set foot into HR which is saying something considering how I have several times spent months yelling at the staff for sucking prior to that.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Ryan said:


> In all honesty people underestimate how much can be done without mods support. The position itself is useful but it isn’t actually needed to bring real change. The most influential posters on this site at its peak weren’t mods.
> 
> I understand the complaints against Kitsune, but I don’t get the helplessness people display when it comes to making this place better, especially the recent registrations. They aren’t helping anyone. I understand people can’t be bothered after a while, but you don’t need to give up your position just because things aren’t going well at the moment. Unfortunately no one is getting paid to do this so in most cases it isn’t worth sticking around.
> 
> Also, as much as I love trashing mods, I think some members and mods on both sides get invested too much in the “struggle” and get burned out.



The issue is there is a lack of apathy and no desire to change things. The incumbent Staff with people like her are completely vested in the idea that anyone they dislike or have an issue with should not be allowed to rise up. And being a moderator or super moderator or administrator on NF is not a real world job, like you said they aren't being paid or incentivize for their time or effort running the forums but the main issue is that people like Kitsune do are more interested in squashing changes to the current system where multiple sections (The Alley, the OBD, the DB, the OP, etc...sub-forums) have valid issues with how their moderated, problems with the new global rules and code of conduct, how certain Staff maintain themselves or behave, and how their treated, is going untreated and more or less ignored.

There's a boiling point when this all reaches critical mass and NF isn't really immune to that.

And that leads back the whole fiasco with the advisorship plan Xiammes had and how much of a role Kitsune played in blocking certain posters from getting past the nomination stage to the point she burned out several people who left like White Wolf and Trinity. The added insult to injury here is she has in the past then and currently as well in the present shown no remorse or learned from her actions, her behavior remains the same and static even when in the past she got demoted and removed.

So where does this all lead? 

A circle where this cycle keeps repeating itself? And I haven't even touched on the hypocrisy of her attempting to have Nighty banned the same style that happened years ago with Ryoma one of the old OBD ex-mods, just citing some ad hoc claim and spinning it to have a justification to remove someone they dislike for leaking when Kitsune herself is hilariously guilty of doing this since her earliest days being promoted to a moderator.

She is the problem. And there has to be a solution to deal with her.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> This. We control NF. The mods don't.
> 
> Let's burn this friend down already.


if you're gonna do it, please do it soon

im approaching my eleventh year soon

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Atlantic Storm said:


> if you're gonna do it, please do it soon
> 
> im approaching my eleventh year soon



Just go back to binge drinking and all your worries will be over.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

Okay, here we go. I hope everyone is having an enjoyable day and that this can somehow yield something productive. I need to say right off the bat that I will not be stepping down and it looks like I will not be demoted. I'm truly sorry if this is disappointing to you but I need to get that out there so we can focus on attainable goals. I am here to listen, to talk and to try to reconcile if reconciliation is possible. If it isn't, I understand but I will still do my best. My goal here is to be polite and patient while also being honest and forthcoming.

First of all, I want to publicly apologize to @Gin the Nighty on behalf of the staff. I'm truly sorry that personal information about you was made public knowledge. That is unacceptable, since as a staff we are bound by nerd-honor to protect your privacy. Even though I stand by the underlying point of what I said (more on that later) I am also sorry for the tone I used in those discussions. Although taken out of context to a degree, the way I spoke was unprofessional and unkind and there is no excuse for that. I do not feel that being a staff member on an anime forum puts me above anyone else and if it sounded like that, I'm truly sorry.

Gin, you are a very talented artist and I have a lot of admiration for your abilities. They are undeniable and as someone who particularly enjoys creativity and art, I believe you have a lot to offer this world. I feel that I owe you a further explanation about my opinions in those posts. I did not feel that you would be suitable for advisor. I'm sorry to say it, but this situation has confirmed my concerns that you seem to relish large-scale drama situations. I realize that people grow and change over the years, but I was afraid that you hadn't left those tendencies behind. When I inappropriately referred to your mental health, I was trying to say that I thought the stressors of being on the staff would get to you and cause you to revert to this behavior.

The definition of advisor was never properly clarified and I think that led to a huge amount of trouble. Some people saw it as a PR bridge between the members of certain sections and the staff, while other people saw it as a skilled position where we could bring on coders, graphics creators, etc. (and some saw it as potentially both). There is absolutely no denying that you have the talent and skill portion of this in spades. Considering this is an unpaid position, we would be lucky to have anyone willing to contribute their specialized abilities. I don't want you to take this as a slight against your abilities in that area because you are more than qualified in that respect.

I'd like you to know that while I don't have sole veto power, I do acknowledge that I am able to influence staff discussion. I use persuasive argument to convey my point of view and others can agree or disagree. Please recognize that this was a group decision and I do not have the Svengali-like control attributed to me.

I'll be here to answer questions and address any other issues that come up. Please keep the conversation civil and please be patient with my replies because I want to make sure I give them the thought they deserve.

Reactions: Like 3


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'll be here to answer questions and address any other issues that come up. Please keep the conversation civil and please be patient with my replies because I want to make sure I give them the thought they deserve.



I won't speak for the Alley but the OBD is deeply concerned that your personal social views will taint how you mod. We know you participated in a thread where you and several other S mods on the direction of a former admin were going to find excuses to retroactively ban us and while the details aren't clear, evidently you share the ludicrous notion that we're immortal, magic using Chi wizards plotting to bring an apocalypse about on the forum or some other type of inanity. You've called me a racist (and you owe me an apology for that..it was categorically dishonest) and you associate with several moderators who not only have issues with our section but order users to lurk the convo and report every little thing...have bragged about this and had their informants likewise do so.

Agree to consider minimizing Es' ban and agree to recuse yourself from any issues involving the OBD...apologize for the slander towards several of our members.

Fang can address the advisory stuff but for the rest of the section, those seem to be the chief issues. 

That's pretty much it on our end, address those issues and our problems are settled.

@Juub @God Movement  Would be better able to discuss what the Dragon Ball section needs I guess.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Gin, you are a very talented artist and I have a lot of admiration for your abilities. They are undeniable and as someone who particularly enjoys creativity and art, I believe you have a lot to offer this world. I feel that I owe you a further explanation about my opinions in those posts. I did not feel that you would be suitable for advisor. I'm sorry to say it, but this situation has confirmed my concerns that you seem to relish large-scale drama situations. I realize that people grow and change over the years, but I was afraid that you hadn't left those tendencies behind. When I inappropriately referred to your mental health, I was trying to say that I thought the stressors of being on the staff would get to you and cause you to revert to this behavior.


i'm about to go out but i read your post first anyway, and i just want to respond quickly to this part before giving my in-depth reply

you're essentially saying "your reaction to me insulting you and talking condescendingly about your mental health proved my point about you"

i hope you see the erroneous nature of such an argument

the situation yesterday was honestly regrettable, and i didn't want it to blow up as it did, what i wanted was for your unacceptable behavior to be made public, and for you and the staff who defend you to answer for it

i was not the ringleader however, it was a mutual decision among a number of us, and after having been posted, it gained support from a lot of different posters with differing personalities and viewpoints

and i honestly don't recall being particularly uncivil during the whole proceeding

i tagged you a few times and spammed a few memes, that was about it

hardly comparable to calling nighty a catfish and lying about her leaking IPs to damage her credibility

whatever sins i'm guilty of (and i am, i have a temper and i'm not one to hold back on expressing my true opinion), yours are, as far as i and many others are concerned, greater, so i consider it extremely hypocritical that you consider yourself worthy of remaining on the staff, but someone like me is unsuitable for occasionally getting too heated

i'll be back with more later, i'm sure others will care to chime in tho


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## Sassy (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'm sorry to say it, but this situation has confirmed my concerns that you seem to relish large-scale drama situations. I realize that people grow and change over the years, but I was afraid that you hadn't left those tendencies behind. When I inappropriately referred to your mental health, I was trying to say that I thought the stressors of being on the staff would get to you and cause you to revert to this behavior.



But that's still a misguided view just as I mentioned earlier just because someone is struggling with depression, mental health, having a disorder or seeking help with medication for it does not mean that they are incapable of doing anything. People with mental health issues are perfectly capable to do anything just like any other indiviuals before them can who don't have any mental health problems.  Everyone is overlooking that fact, it's like your saying people with mental health issues are handicapped and dramatic when that's far from the case they are perfectly capable of doing everything just as any other person before them without mental health problems can.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Rinoa (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I won't speak for the Alley but the OBD is deeply concerned that your personal social views will taint how you mod. We know you participated in a thread where you and several other S mods on the direction of a former admin were going to find excuses to retroactively ban us and while the details aren't clear, evidently you share the ludicrous notion that we're immortal, magic using Chi wizards plotting to bring an apocalypse about on the forum or some other type of inanity. You've called me a racist (and you owe me an apology for that..it was categorically dishonest) and you associate with several moderators who not only have issues with our section but order users to lurk the convo and report every little thing...have bragged about this and had their informants likewise do so.
> 
> *Agree to consider minimizing Es' ban* and agree to recuse yourself from any issues involving the OBD...apologize for the slander towards several of our members.
> 
> ...


Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here an indication that was somehow given or misinterpreted of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.

Severe bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.

The fact that Kitsune has expressed her thoughts concerning a member on a wrong way, is not the same as Kitsune decides bans, promotions or any other important decision that is discussed and made collectively.

If someone wants to address about es ban, es will have to do it to the staff at the courts, or a thread should be created and the subject taken to the staff in general.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 24, 2019)

Sassy said:


> But that's still a misguided view just as I mentioned earlier just because someone is struggling with depression, mental health, having a disorder or seeking help with medication for it does not mean that they are incapable of doing anything. People with mental health issues are perfectly capable to do anything just like any other indiviuals before them can who don't have any mental health problems.  Everyone is overlooking that fact, it's like your saying people with mental health issues are handicapped and dramatic when that's far from the case they are perfectly capable of doing everything just as any other person before them without mental health problems can.



 No I have to disagree. People with mental issues can’t operate like someone who doesn’t have issues. People with mental issues generally always have a harder time holding things in if they are pushed to a limit.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Sassy said:


> But that's still a misguided view just as I mentioned earlier just because someone is struggling with depression, mental health, having a disorder or seeking help with medication for it does not mean that they are incapable of doing anything. People with mental health issues are perfectly capable to do anything just like any other indiviuals before them can who don't have any mental health problems.  Everyone is overlooking that fact, it's like your saying people with mental health issues are handicapped and dramatic when that's far from the case they are perfectly capable of doing everything just as any other person before them without mental health problems can.


I see the point flew right over your head.


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## Six (Jan 24, 2019)

Staff court threads are absolutely useless tbh. Unless itæs something like a day ban or whatever,


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## Catamount (Jan 24, 2019)

But you have just said that you do not think you are better than anyone else. I mean. You just lied. The level of hypocrisy is astonishing. You have worded your post in the most possibly insulting way you could without rolling down to swearing. And actually insulting to a lot more than one person mentioned in it directly. That probably took some effort and re-typing.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sassy (Jan 24, 2019)

Aphrodite said:


> No I have to disagree. People with mental issues can’t operate like someone who doesn’t have issues. People with mental issues generally always have a harder time holding things in if they are pushed to a limit.


Understandable to each their own agree to disagree but I still believe it to be unfair in that regard. Yes I know life is unfair it's a part of life but in my eyes they are just as capable despite what has been given to them they can still be capable. 




Juub said:


> I see the point flew right over your head.


What point? I can be slow on the uptake to understand.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Rinoa said:


> Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here a completely wrong view of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.
> 
> Severe bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
> She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.
> ...



Except this is demonstrably false (Marcelle does what ever he pleases, White wolf protected Natty from any kind of discipline, Island targets users he doesn't like and pushes Catalyst and other users into baiting them. Paralax dodges a bad for calling Es an uncle Tom because he didn't feel like eating a ban that day and so on )beyond that, what she says and does weighs heavily on who is banned and the decision to ban Es was motivated partly by her (and your) lapse of judgment and biased towards us for the way we view certain issues. Many of the staff have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted weighing in on policy regarding the OBD and the fact they have readily made pacts with members to harass and bait us into giving staff members an excuse to ban us (you guys got caught confounding Esedese's posts for Es's among the false accusations against us being Lo-Pan) , any hostility and acrimony between the staff and our section (and likely the Dragon ball section as well) won't die down any time soon, unless concessions are made.

We'd like an apology for the unfair treatment, the lies spoken about us and an agreement that Kitsune, Island, Soca and any moderator affiliated with the Alley will not set foot in the OBD nor mod it without differing first to its section mods.

Simply put, we cannot trust many on the staff and unless reason is given for us to do so, 2012 will just continue to repeat.




Sassy said:


> But that's still a misguided view just as I mentioned earlier just because someone is struggling with depression, mental health, having a disorder or seeking help with medication for it does not mean that they are incapable of doing anything. People with mental health issues are perfectly capable to do anything just like any other indiviuals before them can who don't have any mental health problems.  Everyone is overlooking that fact, it's like your saying people with mental health issues are handicapped and dramatic when that's far from the case they are perfectly capable of doing everything just as any other person before them without mental health problems can.



that was  referring to Gin's use of the alley as a crutch to compensate for his issues when he's in a low period. That he lives for the pointless and soulless drama because its cathartic and how that affects his ability to weigh in on forum policy in any honest or effective manner.

This is coming from an admittedly poisoned source...but never the less, it is correct.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Aphrodite (Jan 24, 2019)

Sassy said:


> Understandable to each their own agree to disagree but I still believe it to be unfair in that regard. Yes I know life is unfair it's a part of life but in my eyes they are just as capable despite what has been given to them they can still be capable.



Capable in the beginning maybe but in the end it will get to them. I had huge bouts of depression when I was on staff. Not from staff but my personal self. I held things in for a very long time till finally in the end I blew up. I threw everyone under the bus. Staff and friends and fuck even myself.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Sassy said:


> Understandable to each their own agree to disagree but I still believe it to be unfair in that regard. Yes I know life is unfair it's a part of life but in my eyes they are just as capable despite what has been given to them they can still be capable.
> 
> 
> 
> What point? I can be slow on the uptake to understand.


Her point isn't that Gin's mental health issues(if he has any) preclude him from working. Her point is that Gin has a tendency to get involved in large-scale drama and easily gets roped into bullshit. She spoke about his mental health issues in a PM(or whatever the hell it was) to accentuate what she meant but it was done poorly and in equally poor taste. So really, the main argument is that Gin's behavior is unfit of a staff member(lol) and seeing how easily this kid gets baited, can't say she's wrong. Basically, if he'd be on staff, it'd be even worse for him and she thinks he wouldn't be able to deal with it.

Then again, they don't even tell us what they want in their staff because I've seen some bullshit decisions get made and some people were brought up and even promoted as mods when they had no business anywhere near HR.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Rinoa said:


> Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here an indication that was somehow given or misinterpreted of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.
> Severe bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
> She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.
> 
> ...


As a certified E-lawyer, I represent @Es and as my client, he has given me the right to defend him. I need access to his SCR thread now. Thank you.


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

Rinoa said:


> Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here an indication that was somehow given or misinterpreted of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.
> 
> Severe bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
> She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.
> ...


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## Sassy (Jan 24, 2019)

Aphrodite said:


> Capable in the beginning maybe but in the end it will get to them. I had huge bouts of depression when I was on staff. Not from staff but my personal self. I held things in for a very long time till finally in the end I blew up. I threw everyone under the bus. Staff and friends and fuck even myself.


Everyone's different though on what they've faced within depression, anxiety, mental health etc. No one's ever going to expierence the same like someone else has, everyone expierences things differently and some might be better at being in control more then others can.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Karma (Jan 24, 2019)

Y is Fang blacklisted from being a mod?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> As a certified E-lawyer, I represent @Es and as my client, he has given me the right to defend him. I need access to his SCR thread now. Thank you.



I second this, especially given how his court thread posts showed up in that Alley thread where they stock all of our posts and use them to bait us. If its okay to leak court thread posts, then it should be okay for us to examine his court threads to determine if any impropriety has occurred.

Also the reports and who made them...so Island can then continue to lie about not instructing the Cafe to mass flag OBD'ers

God that thread is sad.


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

Luck said:


> Y is Fang blacklisted from being a mod?


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Ok I have Epilespy and I can tell you right now staff shouldn't have mental problems tbh steph is right.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

How curious that so many people who were so in favor of staff members being made accountable for their abusive actions and personal biases are now so _against_ it.

Almost as if some staff members' personal biases have shifted to favor those people.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Ok I have Epilespy and I can tell you right now staff shouldn't have mental problems tbh steph is right.



It seems that they're arguing that it's okay for _certain _staff members to have mental problems, as long as they rep the right people.


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> How curious that so many people who were so in favor of staff members being made accountable for their abusive actions and personal biases are now so _against_ it.
> 
> Almost as if some staff members' personal biases have shifted to favor those people.


Coming from an Alley regular that's quite ironic.


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Okay, here we go. I hope everyone is having an enjoyable day and that this can somehow yield something productive. I need to say right off the bat that I will not be stepping down and it looks like I will not be demoted. I'm truly sorry if this is disappointing to you but I need to get that out there so we can focus on attainable goals. I am here to listen, to talk and to try to reconcile if reconciliation is possible. If it isn't, I understand but I will still do my best. My goal here is to be polite and patient while also being honest and forthcoming.
> 
> First of all, I want to publicly apologize to @Gin the Nighty on behalf of the staff. I'm truly sorry that personal information about you was made public knowledge. That is unacceptable, since as a staff we are bound by nerd-honor to protect your privacy. Even though I stand by the underlying point of what I said (more on that later) I am also sorry for the tone I used in those discussions. Although taken out of context to a degree, the way I spoke was unprofessional and unkind and there is no excuse for that. I do not feel that being a staff member on an anime forum puts me above anyone else and if it sounded like that, I'm truly sorry.
> 
> ...


haven’t read the entire thread (kinda busy and actual busy, not just perma lurking) 

but this ain’t about the advisors or you vs gin 

this about you and how you broke rules like other staff have. but unlike those staff you’re not being punished/have circumvented any imposed punishment 

also, in general, youre just unfit to be staff 

so yeah, go head and call gin hitler, that doesn’t change facts about you


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> It seems that they're arguing that it's okay for _certain _staff members to have mental problems, as long as they rep the right people.


They should know what to do.


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

@Santi please, once again, purge the personal needs and comments that aren’t necessary


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## Blacku (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> It seems that they're arguing that it's okay for _certain _staff members to have mental problems, as long as they rep the right people.



You had your leakers look at our rep pages?

Talk about a waste of resources


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## God Movement (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> It seems that they're arguing that it's okay for _certain _staff members to have mental problems, as long as they rep the right people.



Try not to think too hard, pal. This may be far too complex a dynamic for you to wrap your head around. You likely expected us to grab some of the pitchforks that you have brought in plentiful supply, and mindlessly rage against the system with you. I suppose that’s the cause of at least some of your confusion. No?


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## Juub (Jan 24, 2019)

JoJo said:


> haven’t read the entire thread (kinda busy and actual busy, not just perma lurking)
> 
> but this ain’t about the advisors or you vs gin
> 
> ...


That PM or whatever it was sparked it. I think it was good that she addressed it instead of some bullshit-ass forum-wide insincere apology that addresses nothing. We'll have a question period right after we get refreshments nibba. Write them down.


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## Esdese (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Okay, here we go. I hope everyone is having an enjoyable day and that this can somehow yield something productive. I need to say right off the bat that I will not be stepping down and it looks like I will not be demoted. I'm truly sorry if this is disappointing to you but I need to get that out there so we can focus on attainable goals. I am here to listen, to talk and to try to reconcile if reconciliation is possible. If it isn't, I understand but I will still do my best. My goal here is to be polite and patient while also being honest and forthcoming.
> 
> First of all, I want to publicly apologize to @Gin the Nighty on behalf of the staff. I'm truly sorry that personal information about you was made public knowledge. That is unacceptable, since as a staff we are bound by nerd-honor to protect your privacy. Even though I stand by the underlying point of what I said (more on that later) I am also sorry for the tone I used in those discussions. Although taken out of context to a degree, the way I spoke was unprofessional and unkind and there is no excuse for that. I do not feel that being a staff member on an anime forum puts me above anyone else and if it sounded like that, I'm truly sorry.
> 
> ...





Rinoa said:


> Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here an indication that was somehow given or misinterpreted of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.
> 
> Perm bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
> She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.
> ...



Since there no is dumb rating here. Here you go. Both of you can enjoy me calling you dumb and have a free !sam on the house


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I won't speak for the Alley but the OBD is deeply concerned that your personal social views will taint how you mod. We know you participated in a thread where you and several other S mods on the direction of a former admin were going to find excuses to retroactively ban us and while the details aren't clear, evidently you share the ludicrous notion that we're immortal, magic using Chi wizards plotting to bring an apocalypse about on the forum or some other type of inanity. You've called me a racist (and you owe me an apology for that..it was categorically dishonest) and you associate with several moderators who not only have issues with our section but order users to lurk the convo and report every little thing...have bragged about this and had their informants likewise do so.
> 
> Agree to consider minimizing Es' ban and agree to recuse yourself from any issues involving the OBD...apologize for the slander towards several of our members.
> 
> ...



Some of your information is false but some of it is not. It is true that I think you and Es test a lot of limits with your conduct and the kind of language you use. When punitive action is discussed in relation to either of you, I usually agree that the posts in question are not acceptable. That said, I do not feel a particular bias towards or against any one of the three sections you mentioned (OBD, Alley and DBS) and I hope that we improve our ability to treat punishment in any section with an even hand.



Gin the Nighty said:


> i'm about to go out but i read your post first anyway, and i just want to respond quickly to this part before giving my in-depth reply
> 
> you're essentially saying "your reaction to me insulting you and talking condescendingly about your mental health proved my point about you"
> 
> ...



It's human nature to sometimes get upset and I completely understand that. Given the way those screenshots came out, without context and in the middle of so many contentious events, I understand the reaction even if I don't think it was productive.

It's important to realize that being on the NF staff is stressful. This sounds ridiculous because it's all just words posted on an anime board, but it can seriously get under your skin. I've seen some strong people break down and some really unfortunate words fly between former friends. It was misleading to present the advisor position as one that would be impervious to this stuff, because it's not. That's just the way it is, even in this humble setting, because that's human nature.

It was just my own personal opinion that you would have a hard time with this. I admit I don't know you personally and I could be wrong about it. I will make sure to reach out more so I can get to know you better as a person and not just a persona.



Sassy said:


> But that's still a misguided view just as I mentioned earlier just because someone is struggling with depression, mental health, having a disorder or seeking help with medication for it does not mean that they are incapable of doing anything. People with mental health issues are perfectly capable to do anything just like any other indiviuals before them can who don't have any mental health problems.  Everyone is overlooking that fact, it's like your saying people with mental health issues are handicapped and dramatic when that's far from the case they are perfectly capable of doing everything just as any other person before them without mental health problems can.



I'm going to state right now that many staff members, past and present, are familiar with mental health issues either personally or through loved ones. I'm very sad that this is being construed as an attack on something that I take very seriously and care about. Just because someone struggles with mental health it doesn't make them any less capable or any less deserving of respect.

My concern comes from the sheer amount of antagonism and stress that can occur when you're a staff member. It's very difficult to be universally appreciated or liked, and sometimes you have to endure a lot of hate (deserved or not). This can really force you to reach deep down and find a reserve of patience, understanding and empathy that you might not feel like having. I'm not saying that people with mental issues can't do this--of course they can and I've seen it happen here in many ways--but it does add to the concern regarding stress levels and how people handle adversity.



Catamount said:


> But you have just said that you do not think you are better than anyone else. I mean. You just lied. The level of hypocrisy is astonishing. You have worded your post in the most possibly insulting way you could without rolling down to swearing. And actually insulting to a lot more than one person mentioned in it directly. That probably took some effort and re-typing.



I'm sorry you feel that way.


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Also, you guys asked us to come here and settle things civilly 

and yet, like mentioned before, this place has a terrible reputation for getting things 

don’t be surprised if after our opinion of this place lowers


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Juub said:


> That PM or whatever it was sparked it. I think it was good that she addressed it instead of some bullshit-ass forum-wide insincere apology that addresses nothing. We'll have a question period right after we get refreshments nibba. Write them down.


Yeah, I can see she’s playing PR on the parts of her rule breaking to try and lessen how bad it actually is. It doesn’t change anything. It gets worse when she’s trying to misrepresent the entire situation by what she’s saying. 

So yeah, I’m out again. gtg.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 24, 2019)

JoJo said:


> Also, you guys asked us to come here and settle things civilly
> 
> and yet, like mentioned before, this place has a terrible reputation for getting things
> 
> don’t be surprised if after our opinion of this place lowers


I honestly dont feel like anything is going to happen, and this is based on past experiences i've seen with you guys trying it out.


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## Esdese (Jan 24, 2019)

@Kitsune


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## Six (Jan 24, 2019)

Black Otaku said:


> You had your leakers look at our rep pages?
> 
> Talk about a waste of resources


White Wolf*


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Some of your information is false but some of it is not. It is true that I think you and Es test a lot of limits with your conduct and the kind of language you use. When punitive action is discussed in relation to either of you, I usually agree that the posts in question are not acceptable. That said, I do not feel a particular bias towards or against any one of the three sections you mentioned (OBD, Alley and DBS) and I hope that we improve our ability to treat punishment in any section with an even hand.
> .



I would love too, because fighting mods distracts one from arguing about Goku vs Superman for the million time 

No seriously, its pointless and I've been where you guys are as well, albeit on a smaller forum and with less of the hostility. So I have a vague understanding of the crap you deal with. It would certainly help relations smooth over if you take back your accusation about us being racists though...that isn't false, you said it to our proverbial faces with no foreknowledge of what was going on and you didn't levy the same accusation against  the people who were advocating for genocide based on skin color in the cafe we were objecting too,

outside of that. I would hope the majority of my info is false, because accusing someone of being an immortal terrorist seems like the kind of thing someone with schizophrenia might question and the rest is just ugliness I'd rather not believe about anyone


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Rinoa said:


> Kitsune is not in the power to do this, i believe there is here an indication that was somehow given or misinterpreted of Kitsune's power, since neither admins make individual decisions, only Mbxx does it.
> 
> Bans, promotions, are decided collectively.
> She can not in any way commit to reverse a decision made by the group.



Then why did she cite having Xiammes "chastising" White Wolf if he kept calling her out for her behavior and actions during your guys debating on the advisorship stuff? This doesn't correlate at all. The leaks have shown she feels entitled and empowered to threaten other Staff if things are not done her way and will try to go above them to administrators in such cases.



> The fact that Kitsune has expressed her thoughts concerning a member on a wrong way,



You are being diplomatic here. Kitsune outright insulted and mocked Gin, there's a fine line of disputing one thing and insulting on another. She crossed it. And in any case this isn't just about the advisorship debacle, this is about why she isn't being punished for leaking or why there is no accountability being leveled at her for what she pulled on Nighty and Trinity.



Luck said:


> Y is Fang blacklisted from being a mod?



Kitsune hates me seemingly. Which is odd because she's still set as one of my "followers/friends" and I haven't really talked to her in the last couple years or had issues with her outside of that in a long time. Though I used to be explosively angry and would get in trouble as a result of that but I've been pretty mellowed out the last three or four years for the most part.


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## Catamount (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way


This is what I tell at work to idiots who are incapable of reading money-back policy before buying a product. I aint buying anything and there is no acceptable use policy here. So stop selling half-assed customer support, like your wit is the only capable of understanding it here.

If these replies are officially agreed upon by the majority of the staff... Well, that is one absolutely not sophisticated way to call the users stupid. How high is the self esteem that had spent years among the same faces around, but still thinks she is the only one with rights and wit.

Are other staff members really going to agree this is their stance and this is how it is supposed to look or to be presented.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> I honestly dont feel like anything is going to happen, and this is based on past experiences i've seen with you guys trying it out.



This and another kindly source already confirmed to some of us that the intention is to keep letting certain people here (one guess) derail the thread and hurl insults, so the staff don't have to take this seriously anymore and can eventually just lock it because it "got out of hand." This is why Kitsune is getting away with basically saying, "Yeah, I did it, so what?" and Rinoa outright contradicting what actually happened in leaks that Kits herself confirmed happen the way they were portrayed.

Modding Tactics 101.


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> I'm gonna give my thoughts regarding staff in general.
> 
> From what I understand, people are chosen as mods thanks to what they can contribute to the organization of the forums right? (This disregarding the "corruption" part that's present everywhere around the world unfortunately).
> 
> ...



This is actually an excellent post. I also feel that the leaders of any healthy social group need to be people who care about others. I do not claim to be perfect--I am very far from it and I have made many mistakes. However, I do feel that this is something to which we should aspire. 



Luck said:


> Y is Fang blacklisted from being a mod?



There is no such things as blacklisting except in the most extreme circumstances where you're permed for something illegal. However, members with a history of antagonism will have to spend a far longer time proving that they have changed for the better.



JoJo said:


> but this ain’t about the advisors or you vs gin
> 
> this about you and how you broke rules like other staff have. but unlike those staff you’re not being punished/have circumvented any imposed punishment



We now have a Code of Conduct within HO to ensure mod conversation is respectful. All I can say is that I will do my best to adhere to it, since I agree that it's important.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> This and another kindly source already confirmed to some of us that the intention is to keep letting certain people here (one guess) derail the thread and hurl insults, so the staff don't have to take this seriously anymore and can eventually just lock it because it "got out of hand." This is why Kitsune is getting away with basically saying, "Yeah, I did it, so what?" and Rinoa outright contradicting what actually happened in leaks that Kits herself confirmed happen the way they were portrayed.
> 
> Modding Tactics 101.


Well I mean everyone is being civil so far, especially since the "problem" mod showed up to talk to everyone so hey maybe things will actually change


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> There is no such things as blacklisting except in the most extreme circumstances where you're permed for something illegal. However, members with a history of antagonism will have to spend a far longer time proving that they have changed for the better.



If a "history of antagonism" is a black mark to prevent someone from being advisored much less promoted to being a moderator or above, then why are you on the Staff again? You were even removed by Reznor for breaking the rules in the past for a long ass time and you have an explosive personality vices yourself.

My history of getting pissed off and flying off the handle is long buried behind me for years now, but it seems like yours is still catching up to you with how you behaved and your lack of ability to stay objective discussing future advisors or treatment of people who aren't any more redhanded on breaking rules as staff members then you.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> Kitsune hates me seemingly. Which is odd because she's still set as one of my "followers/friends" and I haven't really talked to her in the last couple years or had issues with her outside of that in a long time. Though I used to be explosively angry and would get in trouble as a result of that but I've been pretty mellowed out the last three or four years for the most part.



I still don't like Fang, personally, but can confirm he's actually a reputable member of NF society these days.  He was a bigger shitter than I am now back in the day, but nowadays he'd be a pretty vital part of any contribution factor to sections like the OBD. Hell, there are staff that are _currently_ actively posting that are volatile and disreputable (and I'm not even talking about the current problem child who gets away with making fun of mental illness and wishing death upon people), so it's pretty shit that he's been barred from rising just because of a personal dispute from someone holding a grudge (and it's also pretty scummy that I see other staff members keep trying to say it's still possible, just like others told Gin it was still possible when we all know it's not).


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> Well I mean everyone is being civil so far, especially since the "problem" mod showed up to talk to everyone so hey maybe things will actually change



we're making progress, she still owes a retraction for slandering us all as racists and probably for accusing Es of killing you 



Fang said:


> If a "history of antagonism" is a black mark to prevent someone from being advisored much less promoted to being a moderator or above, then why are you on the Staff again? You were even removed by Reznor for breaking the rules in the past for a long ass time and you have an explosive personality vices yourself.
> .



I do want to point out that both Khaleesi and AFGpride were very forceful moderators, one had an incredibly volatile personality while the other was measured but equally assertive and aggressive. While I'm not casting aspersions on Pride, I believe he was a great mod and his willingness to get into a users face was actually fairly constructive, the other one was...a mess and she was demodded what? Twice? for said volatility before she was banished for good?

Having a hot temper or a divisive history has never stopped anyone before...I have to join Fang in questioning why it suddenly matters now.


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## Karma (Jan 24, 2019)

@Santi wen was the last time u were banned for breaking the rules?


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

Also, it should still be a pretty telling sign to the state of affairs that although we have some admins defending her actions here, and that people feel they nipped the leaking in the bud, there are still other staff members that up until this very day are leaking about her behavior and these incidents. I assume because they know that there's no actual internal way for them to deal with it, because of the threats she makes to them -- as we saw was done to White Wolf.


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## Santí (Jan 24, 2019)

Luck said:


> @Santi wen was the last time u were banned for breaking the rules?



2013.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I do want to point out that both Khaleesi and AFGpride were very forceful moderators, one had an incredibly volatile personality while the other was measured but equally assertive and aggressive. While I'm not casting aspersions on Pride, I believe he was a great mod and his willingness to get into a users face was actually fairly constructive, the other one was...a mess and she was demodded what? Twice? for said volatility before she was banished for good?
> 
> Having a hot temper or a divisive history has never stopped anyone before...I have to join Fang in questioning why it suddenly matters now.



The hilarious thing is the misinformation some staff members spread about the Khaleesi situation, saying the only reason she was actually demodded that time was because she voluntarily stepped down.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> we're making progress, she still owes a retraction for slandering us all as racists and probably for accusing Es of killing you



Yeah it is kinda fucked up being told that someone murdered you


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> as we saw was done to White Wolf.



I'm going to object to anyone casting white Wolf as a good mod, he was a liar who needlessly provoked two of the most volatile sections on the forum, prolonged a feud that had already consumed most of the year and flat out invented nonsense about users on this forum being terrorists in conjunction with some mentally addled trolls who are no longer part of this community. He also showed an extreme protectiveness of a user who delights in antagonizing and baiting the DB section and the OBD.

In short, he is a false person, a bad person and never belonged on the staff. We're well to be rid of him...Not that it excuses Kitsune's conduct..but lets not act like this vindicates those three. They were all terrible in their own right and objectively worse than Kitsune whose only sin at least to Juub, myself and others is to lie about us.

not commenting on her prior history anywhere else nor saying you guys are wrong about her though. From what I'm seeing she is bad news...just a different grade of it.



Krory said:


> The hilarious thing is the misinformation some staff members spread about the Khaleesi situation, saying the only reason she was actually demodded that time was because she voluntarily stepped down.



I can't see how anyone would believe that given the lady's history and character. Anyone with eyes and sense could see that meltdown coming from a mile away.



Masterblack06 said:


> Yeah it is kinda fucked up being told that someone murdered you



I think it showcases (if true :mnaybe) the desperation and lengths some on the staff are willing to go to harass people they dislike.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

As I do on whims from time to time I'm going to offer some constructive feedback to the staff.

First things first if you're viewing this is an isolated incident, stop. To the people it concerns it is very much connected to everything else that happened. I know you have struggles with this, how you would so much like this to not be the case. But the reality is IF you want an actual resolution you need to understand where they're coming from.

Now that brings me to the main issue. The staff has a serious problem, it can't connect with the forum at large in a productive manor. This has been a long standing problem but it gets progressively worse year by year as it becomes increasingly clear that the staff's judgement is, how shall we say, lacking? at times. This undermines faith in the system and you can say you're trying to fix those problems but if no one can see it they have no reason to believe you. Why should anyone trust your judgements on who should or shouldn't be a mod with everything that's happened? Why should anyone believe you're trying to make HR better if we've gotten to the point it seems everyone and their mother is leaking shit? You have staff that don't have any faith in the system and now there is a civil war going on and let's be real that's exactly what's happening. How does any of this inspire faith?

Now I know how easy it is to become tone deaf in HR, been there done that. But fact of the matter is you don't really have time for that anymore. We're fast approaching a dangerous threshold where then end result is a full on downward spiral that leads to the complete dissolution of this iteration of the staff. Don't believe me? Go read how 2012 ended. You'll see many many parallels.


Now if you'll excuse me I'll go back to my lolstaff shitposting now.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

Fang said:


> If a "history of antagonism" is a black mark to prevent someone from being advisored much less promoted to being a moderator or above, then why are you on the Staff again? You were even removed by Reznor for breaking the rules in the past for a long ass time and you have an explosive personality vices yourself.
> 
> My history of getting pissed off and flying off the handle is long buried behind me for years now, but it seems like yours is still catching up to you with how you behaved and your lack of ability to stay objective discussing future advisors or treatment of people who aren't any more redhanded on breaking rules as staff members then you.



This is a very fair point. I have a history of bad behavior and can't pretend otherwise. I've spent many years trying to be a better person and I can see that you have too. There is some cognitive dissonance here on my part because of how I caution against people with a recent history of flaming/baiting/drama/etc. I know it's hypocritical, but I do worry that old personality traits can flare up during hard times. It takes one to know one, but I also know how hard it is to strive for self-improvement and I'll try harder to recognize that in others.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Having a hot temper or a divisive history has never stopped anyone before...I have to join Fang in questioning why it suddenly matters now.



I think the past year on the staff has made us re-evaluate a lot of things. It's still in process and there's a lot of work to be done. I hope we're able to take some of the productive contributions in this thread to heart and come up with improved methods.


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> *snip*



White Wolf's capacities as a mod aren't really the question here (not saying they shouldn't be an issue all in itself, I don't know enough specifics about it yet -- just what you've told me here), but we have Kitsune who has never expressed any disdain or disagreement with him doing the stuff you mentioned (which might also just be a factor that she does _nothing_), but when it came to simply wanting someone as an advisor, she literally says she has an admin that will get rid of him for it. _That_ is an issue right now.

Maybe he shouldn't have been a mod, no, but that also says something else -- they allowed someone with personality traits like that and what Kitsune does to be s-mods and do as they please, but Gin and Fang are barred forever from even being _advisors_ because they got into a few heated debates (and at least in Fang's case, a vast, vast majorities of the transgressions that are being held against him are half a decade old)?

Everything about everything they're doing and saying is wishy-washy and hypocritical, which is hardly anything new... it's been this way for over a decade, and this is just the newest instance. I think, admittedly, this one sits more unwell with me knowing who this is and that personal information is being used against members now from years ago, stuff that was confided in a friend in confidence. And yes, I know you folks have suffered the same kind of blows and I suppose it is pretty shitty of me to only be interested now because it's happening to me, but alas... that's where we're at now.




> I can't see how anyone would believe that given the lady's history and character. Anyone with eyes and sense could see that meltdown coming from a mile away.



No one in their right mind believed it... but they still tried to shill it.


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> We now have a Code of Conduct within HO to ensure mod conversation is respectful. All I can say is that I will do my best to adhere to it, since I agree that it's important.


We now have New Global Rules within NF to ensure member conversation is respectful. All I can say is that I will do my best to adhere to it, since I agree that it's important.

Now, imagine someone was flaming in another section and they didn't get banned. In fact, imagine they are frequent flamers and never got banned for it. Then imagine they begin flaming again and nothing happens again, despite them making that throwaway statement months earlier.

yeah, you don't have to say anything, I agree with what you're thinking.

also, can you elaborate on why you got staffed in the first place? as in what did you contribute to the forum during the time you were being considered to be staff? and then contrast that to now and the all useful things you're doing.

and, kobe flamed people and was bigoted and got demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?
khaleesi made bigoted comments and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?mysticgohan was a flight risk and a probable leaker and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?
trin leaked and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

But alas... even though what they're allowing someone to get away with here is a more horrifying and frightening tale, I'm going to go back to rewatching _The Haunting of Hill House_ because at least that has better writing and acting than this thread.


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> This is a very fair point. I have a history of bad behavior and can't pretend otherwise. I've spent many years trying to be a better person and I can see that you have too. There is some cognitive dissonance here on my part because of how I caution against people with a recent history of flaming/baiting/drama/etc. I know it's hypocritical, but I do worry that old personality traits can flare up during hard times. It takes one to know one, but I also know how hard it is to strive for self-improvement and I'll try harder to recognize that in others.



This is a complete denial and deflecting from the fact that you admitting that you've been in the same situation as me or Gin yet currently an active member of the Staff somehow can be absolved from breaking rules. If you want references for my last couple years of staying well behaved, you can talk to Musubi, Iwan, UD, Mary, MajinLu, Santi, Kenneth, Nighty, Trinity, White Wolf, Lewd, and everyone else till you are blue in the face. I have no "recent history" of flaming/baiting/drama so this is a cop out. Plain and simple.

You want to use that as pretext to avoid seeing people who you have a personal issues with having access to the HR.  Its that simple. And if you want to self-improvement, why are you unable to somehow reconcile that in others who have? Gin is one of the most active posters and well regarded with what he can do with photoshop and other things, I represented the OBD and went into talks for weeks and weeks with Reznor, Goose, and Nighty to fix the issue because my section wanted me to represent them and felt I had could and I got somewhere in that regard but you seem to be unable to absolve yourself of past biases and that's a problem.


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## Gin (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> It's human nature to sometimes get upset and I completely understand that. Given the way those screenshots came out, without context and in the middle of so many contentious events, I understand the reaction even if I don't think it was productive.
> 
> It's important to realize that being on the NF staff is stressful. This sounds ridiculous because it's all just words posted on an anime board, but it really can get under your skin. I've seen some really strong people break down and some really unfortunate words fly between former friends. It was misleading to present the advisor position as one that would be impervious to this stuff, because it's not. That's just the way it is, even in this humble setting, because that's human nature.
> 
> It was just my own personal opinion that you would have a hard time with this. I admit I don't know you personally and I could be wrong about it. I will make sure to reach out more so I can get to know you better as a person and not just a persona.


i understand that being on the staff is stressful, i've heard several accounts of this

and i'm not denying that i could potentially get heated as a staff member, i'd be a liar if i said i thought the advisor position wouldn't come with obstacles that could incite a bad reaction from me

but that isn't really the point, is it

as you've just said, plenty of staff (obviously including yourself) have said and done regrettable things, so i'd be far from the first

you're aware of my issues, and disregarded the positive benefits i'd bring to the staff and focused on those issues, framing my application in such a way that made me look like a poor choice

and you have enough staff on your side that this way of framing things was genuinely accepted

a few didn't, and now they're gone

trin and nighty are both out of the staff, for doing nothing other than making the nf members aware of something deeply troublesome in the HR

they didn't leak anything personal or sensitive, they leaked a genuine problem that needs to be addressed

but enough about me, my application being denied ultimately isn't why there's a movement against you, it's your unprofessional behavior that's the problem

i've resigned to the fact that i'll never be respected by the staff enough to be given any kind of position, i still want you gone because you aren't just an obstacle to me, you're an obstacle to NF

you try to assume the moral high ground and veto applications based on members' tendency to get heated or be involved in drama, but based on just a few screenshots it's obvious how much unnecessary drama and conflict your presence in the HR is responsible for

moreover, i still don't know _what you do_ besides deny applications and generally weigh in on staff issues

someone who does nothing as a staff member besides be opinionated and provide half-truths about why certain members shouldn't be trusted is not beneficial, your existence in the HR has already caused two honest ex-admins to be removed from the staff for exposing you, and at least one super moderator, probably two, to quit

you're obviously not going to accept that you have any responsibility in this because "i'm wrong" "trin's wrong" "nighty's wrong" "white wolf is wrong", which was why i and others made this public and tried to bring this to the attention of as many people as possible


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I think the past year on the staff has made us re-evaluate a lot of things. It's still in process and there's a lot of work to be done. I hope we're able to take some of the productive contributions in this thread to heart and come up with improved methods.



To be honest, having a temper isn't a bad thing perse' its about where its applied. You can be an intense person, easily heated but as long as you recognize you are and direct that fury properly it can be beneficial to the forum. The problem with the staff and you to a lesser degree hasn't been anger but its been hypocrisy.

Consider this, you called me a racist, you dragged me through the mud in disgust, but in the exact same forum, in the exact same thread people were calling for the murder of children because they happened to be white, straight and south African. You were morally appalled at me and conspired to ensure and accelerate my permanent ban (and too this day won't apologize, too this day won't consent to reversing prior bans and resetting the scale). You  and the staff at large do this based on your personal social views, you're willing to tolerate misconduct, hostility and scorn and browbeating and even harassment. you'll make shit up about people and justify it as "well i don't like how they think".

Under those circumstances, neither your temper, Fangs, Khals or whoever is the problem. It's the willingness to tolerate one form of bigotry (which you and the rest of the staff do...unequivocally) while condemning another. Tolerate flaming, assaults on peoples character, endless posts in a thread harassing users, solely because you share in the dislike. Khal wasn't a bad moderator because she was hot headed, she was a bad moderator because she was a racist, misanthrope who tolerated outrageous conduct because she happened to agree with the reasons behind the conduct. My issues with you, are not that you sandbagged Nighty, but that you have slandered my friends and myself and _still won't apologize for it._

you being tough or volatile isn't a problem. _You, refusing to admit you were wrong is._

This applies to nearly the whole staff at present as well.




Krory said:


> White Wolf's capacities as a mod aren't really the question here (not saying they shouldn't be an issue all in itself, I don't know enough specifics about it yet -- just what you've told me here), but we have Kitsune who has never expressed any disdain or disagreement with him doing the stuff you mentioned (which might also just be a factor that she does _nothing_), but when it came to simply wanting someone as an advisor, she literally says she has an admin that will get rid of him for it. _That_ is an issue right now.



Agreed, I want to make it clear I'm not defending Kitsune here, only saying I found Nighty to be a lying, feckless bully who didn't give two shits about the section that helped her matter on the forum enough to get into the position she was in. Nighty who requested Kitsune help her find excuses to permanently ban someone like @NostalgiaFan  for the crime of...I dunno existing? Then had the audacity to claim it was a joke. Who needlessly antagonizes, misrepresents and panders solely for the purpose of self gratification

And that I find White Wolf to be detestable fraud and TriN gave a certain user undue influence, power and respect and allowed her friends to use said to bat multiple users the staff had issues with into perm bans.

Saying "I find Kitsune at fault" should not equate "and these guys were the best ever'

they weren't, aren't and never will be.

None of them are and the jury is out on if Kitsune is coming to us honestly.



Krory said:


> Maybe he shouldn't have been a mod, no, but that also says something else -- they allowed someone with personality traits like that and what Kitsune does to be s-mods and do as they please, but Gin and Fang are barred forever from even being _advisors_ because they got into a few heated debates (and at least in Fang's case, a vast, vast majorities of the transgressions that are being held against him are half a decade old)?



And this a concern I share with you. Khals greatest sin (and the sin of two current mods) was going onto discord and coordinating a harassment campaign on site to push users in the Cafe she disliked for being a certain skin color or having certain opinions into saying something that could justify a ban. Editing posts then asking users to report them, telling users to raid other sections.

Kitsune...by all appearances has perpetrated much of the same...I sympathize with your concerns, they're wholly legitimate. I'm not disagreeing. I will however object to martyring a few messed up people.



Krory said:


> Everything about everything they're doing and saying is wishy-washy and hypocritical, which is hardly anything new... it's been this way for over a decade, and this is just the newest instance*. I think, admittedly, this one sits more unwell with me knowing who this is and that personal information is being used against members now from years ago, stuff that was confided in a friend in confidence.* And yes, I know you folks have suffered the same kind of blows and I suppose it is pretty shitty of me to only be interested now because it's happening to me, but alas... that's where we're at now.



Believe me, I sympathize, several OBD'ers who are currently in a veerry bad spot mentally, have had their misery exploited to target other ones...Kitsune and the current staff have put some of us in a position to where we worry about them trying to ruin peoples lives off site utilizing information they have access too.

Some of claim to have been threatened with such.




Krory said:


> No one in their right mind believed it... but they still tried to shill it.



Even when Khal herself explained what happened no less

Reactions: Like 2


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## Rinoa (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Except this is demonstrably false (Marcelle does what ever he pleases, White wolf protected Natty from any kind of discipline, Island targets users he doesn't like and pushes Catalyst and other users into baiting them. Paralax dodges a bad for calling Es an uncle Tom because he didn't feel like eating a ban that day and so on )beyond that, what she says and does weighs heavily on who is banned and the decision to ban Es was motivated partly by her (and your) lapse of judgment and biased towards us for the way we view certain issues. Many of the staff have proven time and time again that they cannot be trusted weighing in on policy regarding the OBD and the fact they have readily made pacts with members to harass and bait us into giving staff members an excuse to ban us (you guys got caught confounding Esedese's posts for Es's among the false accusations against us being Lo-Pan) , any hostility and acrimony between the staff and our section (and likely the Dragon ball section as well) won't die down any time soon, unless concessions are made.
> 
> We'd like an apology for the unfair treatment, the lies spoken about us and an agreement that Kitsune, Island, Soca and any moderator affiliated with the Alley will not set foot in the OBD nor mod it without differing first to its section mods.
> 
> Simply put, we cannot trust many on the staff and unless reason is given for us to do so, 2012 will just continue to repeat.


I reiterate what i said, severe bans has to be and are discussed by the whole team.

IWD, i'm not familiar with OBD, when a question arises about it, i usually tag the section mods always, or turn to them, as they can confirm to you because i'm a pain in the butt on that, is how i try to learn and know about the section, mods are those who are familiar with their sections and regulars.
But there are certain global forum rules that applies in any section, i hope you can understand this.





Fang said:


> Then why did she cite having Xiammes "chastising" White Wolf if he kept calling her out for her behavior and actions during your guys debating on the advisorship stuff? This doesn't correlate at all. The leaks have shown she feels entitled and empowered to threaten other Staff if things are not done her way and will try to go above them to administrators in such cases.


Had it been about CoC?
Varied staff members in certain situations, they turn to the admins to remember the CoC that was created a few months, due to the staff in general being in need to have rules and some standards.

If this has automatically made us better? No, but there is at least a foundation at the moment and i hope it will better shape the staff, especially those who are coming in now without the old luggages.

Still only Xiammes will be able to respond to this correctly.



> You are being diplomatic here. Kitsune outright insulted and mocked Gin, there's a fine line of disputing one thing and insulting on another. She crossed it. And in any case this isn't just about the advisorship debacle, this is about why she isn't being punished for leaking or why there is no accountability being leveled at her for what she pulled on Nighty and Trinity.


She did crossed it, but to be honest with you, Kitsune today is here to answer for a serious mistake that she committed and that I consider the right thing for her to do, that many others also had their moments less good.
Or a CoC would not have to have been created.

Being a staff doesn't mean being above making mistakes, but surely we should always try to give our best to be an example and a pillar for the community.
Of course this is just what i personally consider, it's not in my right to speak in the name of an entire team.



Krory said:


> This and another kindly source already confirmed to some of us that the intention is to keep letting certain people here (one guess) derail the thread and hurl insults, so the staff don't have to take this seriously anymore and can eventually just lock it because it "got out of hand." This is why Kitsune is getting away with basically saying, "Yeah, I did it, so what?" and Rinoa outright contradicting what actually happened in leaks that Kits herself confirmed happen the way they were portrayed.
> 
> Modding Tactics 101.


Please, do not place words in my mouth, i bolded what i wanted to address to IWD concerning Kitsune.
I apologize if i was not clear enough i know my english is not the best.


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## Kitsune (Jan 24, 2019)

This will probably be my last post in here tonight because I have some things to get done IRL. I'll come back to this thread tomorrow if needed. If anyone ninjas this post I'm not ignoring you and I'll reply when I return.



JoJo said:


> We now have New Global Rules within NF to ensure member conversation is respectful. All I can say is that I will do my best to adhere to it, since I agree that it's important.



I appreciate that. I know you're frustrated and it's mature of you to take this stance.



> Now, imagine someone was flaming in another section and they didn't get banned. In fact, imagine they are frequent flamers and never got banned for it. Then imagine they begin flaming again and nothing happens again, despite them making that throwaway statement months earlier.
> 
> yeah, you don't have to say anything, I agree with what you're thinking.



It's difficult to comment on specifics because the whole discussion wasn't shown. I obviously cannot and will not share the other posts from that thread. Because you've only seen mine, please consider that it's only part of the story. This does not excuse me but it does make the situation more complicated than you might think.



> also, can you elaborate on why you got staffed in the first place? as in what did you contribute to the forum during the time you were being considered to be staff? and then contrast that to now and the all useful things you're doing.



I'll try to share my mod history, although I might be off with some of the dates.

In 2015 I was modded for the Bathhouse. Bathhouse was the first section I posted in on NF starting in 2006. I'd been a highly active member of various sections for many years. In the following years I also modded the following sections at one point or another: Cafe, Konoha Country Club, Outskirts Trading Post, Mafia, Art Dept. and back-up for various iterations of Alley or Blender. There may be more that I can't recall. I was S-modded in mid-2016 to help with enforcement. I have had various periods of retirement/inactivity but they were never longer than several months. These days I help coordinate and facilitate discussions relating to the various sections I'm familiar with. I also privately talk to members about their concerns and problems on the forum. This has been presented as me hiding in HR, wielding a malevolent and out-of-touch control over people. I obviously disagree with this assessment but I understand why it's come across in such a bad light.

These days I admit I don't actively participate enough with the community out in the open. To be honest, I have a lot of fun when I'm just posting and goofing around and I should do it more. I do lurk a great deal in many sections and probably know most of you better than you know me. I've also been on this forum so long that I have a breadth of knowledge in terms of members and forum history. I realize that staying up-to-date in the present is as important or more important than old news, but a long-standing knowledge of various personalities does inform my opinions.



> and, kobe flamed people and was bigoted and got demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?
> khaleesi made bigoted comments and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?mysticgohan was a flight risk and a probable leaker and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?
> trin leaked and was demoted. do you agree demotion was correct here?



Contrary to what's been said, I have not leaked information from HO. Many years ago, I expressed general frustration to Krory in confidence. He is misrepresenting that conversation. I don't know if he's intentionally fabricating things or if he genuinely doesn't remember it correctly, but a lot of what he's saying is inaccurate. I imagine he filled in some of the blanks on his own through observation or hearing it from someone else.

As far as the flaming goes, I have never flamed anyone outside of HO during my time as a staff member. What goes on inside HO is supposed to be private and we do have very unfiltered discussions all around. Please understand that you're only seeing a small portion of what goes on. I'm not trying to shift the blame, but it's more complicated than I can really share in detail. That said, I do think that contention in HO is counter-productive and we should do our best to stay civil on all parts of the forum.



Fang said:


> This is a complete denial and deflecting from the fact that you admitting that you've been in the same situation as me or Gin yet currently an active member of the Staff somehow can be absolved from breaking rules. If you want references for my last couple years of staying well behaved, you can talk to Musubi, Iwan, UD, Mary, MajinLu, Santi, Kenneth, Nighty, Trinity, White Wolf, Lewd, and everyone else till you are blue in the face. I have no "recent history" of flaming/baiting/drama so this is a cop out. Plain and simple.
> 
> You want to use that as pretext to avoid seeing people who you have a personal issues with having access to the HR.  Its that simple. And if you want to self-improvement, why are you unable to somehow reconcile that in others who have? Gin is one of the most active posters and well regarded with what he can do with photoshop and other things, I represented the OBD and went into talks for weeks and weeks with Reznor, Goose, and Nighty to fix the issue because my section wanted me to represent them and felt I had could and I got somewhere in that regard but you seem to be unable to absolve yourself of past biases and that's a problem.



Unfortunately, some of what's happened in the past few days does make me feel that my instincts might have been correct (I don't mean you specifically, but in general). You have stayed civil and I do want to say that I've been impressed by that. I want to be honest with you and say that my main problem with your advisorship application is not that you flame anymore because you don't. It's that you have a tendency to debate very hard and have a hard time letting go. Sometimes it's important to stick to your  guns, but other times you have to be able to let go--especially in staff situation where digging in your heels leads to major interpersonal problems. I should have discussed this with you in your SCR thread and I'm sorry that I did not give you the chance to express yourself on the matter.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 24, 2019)

Looks like its happening again


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## Krory (Jan 24, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Believe me, I sympathize, several OBD'ers who are currently in a veerry bad spot mentally, have had their misery exploited to target other ones...Kitsune and the current staff have put some of us in a position to where we worry about them trying to ruin peoples lives off site utilizing information they have access too.
> 
> Some of claim to have been threatened with such.



And this is why some of the stuff that's been leaked can't even be talked about much -- because it'll be so easy to find out who it was leaked from, and some of these people have already been threatened, harassed, and bullied to the point that they aren't even here anymore, and try not to associate with NF anymore. And the fact that it all goes unchecked for whatever God-knows-even reason is exactly why it's not worth suffering those people _more_ abuse and _more_ harassment and _more_ false allegations because the fact that what was shown here is so easily swiped away as, "Well, oh well..." is enough to show that things won't change.

People like Juub and others here and have touted that members are the ones with the real power here, but if that's true, so many of the most prolific members and people that have contributed the most wouldn't have been chased away, banned, or now falsely vilified. We wouldn't have anonymous staff members so concerned with the behavior that they are still actively leaking to tell us the truth because they know there's literally nothing to be done about it and the best we can hope for is for people to at least _know_, even though it won't do any good, and we wouldn't have this thread dying out because someone literally appealed to troll to come and try to derail the thread so it could be locked and now is getting away with threats and harassment by simply saying, "Well, now the staff has a codes of conduct we have to abide by"... because it's been working _so_ swimmingly thus far, and it says a lot that almost fifteen years later they are only just _*now*_ putting in something like that to abide by (even thought it won't be).


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## Fang (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Unfortunately, some of what's happened in the past few days does make me feel that my instincts might have been correct (I don't mean you specifically, but in general).



I don't even know what this means.



> You have stayed civil and I do want to say that I've been impressed by that. I want to be honest with you and say that my main problem with your advisorship application is not that you flame anymore because you don't. It's that you have a tendency to debate very hard and have a hard time letting go. Sometimes it's important to stick to your  guns, but other times you have to be able to let go--especially in staff situation where digging in your heels leads to major interpersonal problems.



So...the root of the issue of you being an obstacle for me becoming an advisor is because...I want to debate things? That I won't be a simple yes-man and have my own opinion about things? I'm gonna be frank here, this is by far the most surprising thing I could've imagined come up to stifle my chance to see the HR or have access as an advisor. I don't see how in any capacity that's a negative trait of mine. I wouldn't lose my shit but I'd certainly want to talk things to fullest before anything gets moved off the table.



> I should have discussed this with you in your SCR thread and I'm sorry that I did not give you the chance to express yourself on the matter.



You never even posted in my SCR for advisorship candidates. I'm more baffled now then ever and I don't see how wanting to talk things out is a negative trait for an advisor whose main job is to rep their section and work with mods to make things work better and have less issues down the road.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sworder (Jan 24, 2019)

I think at some point the staff have to realize that a lot of us started posting here when we were teenagers/adolescents and ignorant

I barely know Fang on a personal level but it's pretty evident that he has matured a lot and I understand the frustration with some of the members because having past transgressions held against you forever is unfair

I think we are all capable of improving ourselves


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## Aphrodite (Jan 24, 2019)

sworder said:


> I think at some point the staff have to realize that a lot of us started posting here when we were teenagers/adolescents and ignorant
> 
> I barely know Fang on a personal level but it's pretty evident that he has matured a lot and I understand the frustration with some of the members because having past transgressions held against you forever is unfair
> 
> I think we are all capable of improving ourselves



I do agree with this. Fang has changed a great deal. I think he would make a good advisor and I don’t think that opportunity should be taken from him.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 24, 2019)

Krory said:


> People like Juub and others here and have touted that members are the ones with the real power here, but if that's true, so many of the most prolific members and people that have contributed the most wouldn't have been chased away, banned, or now falsely vilified. We wouldn't have anonymous staff members so concerned with the behavior that they are still actively leaking to tell us the truth because they know there's literally nothing to be done about it and the best we can hope for is for people to at least _know_, even though it won't do any good, and we wouldn't have this thread dying out because someone literally appealed to troll to come and try to derail the thread so it could be locked and now is getting away with threats and harassment by simply saying, "Well, now the staff has a codes of conduct we have to abide by"... because it's been working _so_ swimmingly thus far, and it says a lot that almost fifteen years later they are only just _*now*_ putting in something like that to abide by (even thought it won't be).


Opening the HR and making it visible to everyone would be the most honest thing at this point.


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> Okay, here we go. I hope everyone is having an enjoyable day and that this can somehow yield something productive. I need to say right off the bat that I will not be stepping down and it looks like I will not be demoted.



Why? Just because you don't want to? You don't elaborate on this in the rest of your post, and that's very egregious



Kitsune said:


> First of all, I want to publicly apologize to @Gin the Nighty on behalf of the staff. I'm truly sorry that personal information about you was made public knowledge. That is unacceptable, since as a staff we are bound by nerd-honor to protect your privacy. Even though I stand by the underlying point of what I said (more on that later) I am also sorry for the tone I used in those discussions. Although taken out of context to a degree, the way I spoke was unprofessional and unkind and there is no excuse for that. I do not feel that being a staff member on an anime forum puts me above anyone else and if it sounded like that, I'm truly sorry.
> 
> Gin, you are a very talented artist and I have a lot of admiration for your abilities. They are undeniable and as someone who particularly enjoys creativity and art, I believe you have a lot to offer this world. I feel that I owe you a further explanation about my opinions in those posts. I did not feel that you would be suitable for advisor. I'm sorry to say it, but this situation has confirmed my concerns that you seem to relish large-scale drama situations. I realize that people grow and change over the years, but I was afraid that you hadn't left those tendencies behind. When I inappropriately referred to your mental health, I was trying to say that I thought the stressors of being on the staff would get to you and cause you to revert to this behavior.




>I'm sorry that me talking shit about you was leaked
>but I still think ur a shitter


Also, you very obviously do feel being staff on an anime forum makes you better than a lot of people



Kitsune said:


> I'd like you to know that while I don't have sole veto power, I do acknowledge that I am able to influence staff discussion. I use persuasive argument to convey my point of view and others can agree or disagree. Please recognize that this was a group decision and I do not have the Svengali-like control attributed to me.



Do you think your "combatative" style (as confirmed by Xiammes) is helpful in making HR a better place, or does it help in making HR a worse place where you bully people who don't agree with you?

Reactions: Like 2


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## Didi (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> It was just my own personal opinion that you would have a hard time with this. I admit I don't know you personally and I could be wrong about it. I will make sure to reach out more so I can get to know you better as a person and not just a persona



The fuck?
You didn't just think he would have a hard time with it, you actively mocked WW for daring to suggest Gin as an option and dragged that along in the back of your mind to refer to later. That's how much apparently Gin as an option offended you

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Opening the HR and making it visible to everyone would be the most honest thing at this point.



Wouldn't solve anything. No one will use it once that happens. All controversial discussions will move offsite or to PMs.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 24, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Wouldn't solve anything. No one will use it once that happens. All controversial discussions will move offsite or to PMs.


As if they aren't already.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 24, 2019)

Probably. It's literally what happened back in 2012 when everyone hit paranoia mode  I ain't joking about them parallels.


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## Lurko (Jan 24, 2019)




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## Solace (Jan 24, 2019)

Can I just say that, as the resident wallflower for the many years that have lead to this uproar, this conversation has been as bemusing as it has been amusing, and I can't wait for the next installment of "How to Make as Many Unhealthy Decisions for the Community At-Large as Possible." 

Pending alternative titles for NF's personal telenovela: "Confuse Everyone with your Senseless Rhetoric," and "Demote the Opposition from Staff, and _Then_ Listen to Their Arguments."


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'm sorry you feel that way.


yodeling at this response tbh


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 24, 2019)

Chloe said:


> yodeling at this response tbh


I hate you so much for this lmao


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 24, 2019)

Chloe said:


> yodeling at this response tbh



Need your official position on this matter, madam President of NF.


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

D.Va said:


> I hate you so much for this lmao


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## Chloe (Jan 24, 2019)

Leeroy Jenkins said:


> Need your official position on this matter, madam President of NF.


i’m still reading right now but i’ll respond later (if i remember)


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## JoJo (Jan 24, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> i'll try to share my mod history, although I might be off with some of the dates.
> 
> In 2015 I was modded for the Bathhouse. Bathhouse was the first section I posted in on NF starting in 2006. I'd been a highly active member of various sections for many years. In the following years I also modded the following sections at one point or another: Cafe, Konoha Country Club, Outskirts Trading Post, Mafia, Art Dept. and back-up for various iterations of Alley or Blender. There may be more that I can't recall. I was S-modded in mid-2016 to help with enforcement. I have had various periods of retirement/inactivity but they were never longer than several months. These days I help coordinate and facilitate discussions relating to the various sections I'm familiar with. I also privately talk to members about their concerns and problems on the forum. This has been presented as me hiding in HR, wielding a malevolent and out-of-touch control over people. I obviously disagree with this assessment but I understand why it's come across in such a bad light.
> 
> These days I admit I don't actively participate enough with the community out in the open. To be honest, I have a lot of fun when I'm just posting and goofing around and I should do it more. I do lurk a great deal in many sections and probably know most of you better than you know me. I've also been on this forum so long that I have a breadth of knowledge in terms of members and forum history. I realize that staying up-to-date in the present is as important or more important than old news, but a long-standing knowledge of various personalities does inform my opinions.



so nothing special or significant. you're essentially parroting the same defense they used for voodooknight with the whole "i'm well versed in forum affairs and i do work behind the scenes" 



Kitsune said:


> Contrary to what's been said, I have not leaked information from HO. Many years ago, I expressed general frustration to Krory in confidence. He is misrepresenting that conversation. I don't know if he's intentionally fabricating things or if he genuinely doesn't remember it correctly, but a lot of what he's saying is inaccurate. I imagine he filled in some of the blanks on his own through observation or hearing it from someone else.



you're describing the inner workings or staff, which is essentially leaking. if you're (and not you, but the staff in general) not allowed to talk about specifics on the advisor thing, then that's leaking too 



Kitsune said:


> As far as the flaming goes, I have never flamed anyone outside of HO during my time as a staff member. What goes on inside HO is supposed to be private and we do have very unfiltered discussions all around. Please understand that you're only seeing a small portion of what goes on. I'm not trying to shift the blame, but it's more complicated than I can really share in detail. That said, I do think that contention in HO is counter-productive and we should do our best to stay civil on all parts of the forum.


yeah, im not buying what you're selling 

also, it's people like you who try and encourage a dichotomy between staff and members that are the cause of all the negativity in the hr. 

if you care about nf (which you dont), you'll respectfully step down


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Rinoa said:


> I reiterate what i said, severe bans has to be and are discussed by the whole team]



Then perhaps you should begin discussing it, because as it stands, Island, Santi and a few other Staff good ol'boys and gals decided to round a crippled black up and hang him from a tree for the crime of daring to view trans issues as a human rights calamity and to think differently.

and this isn't hyperbole, it looks like collectivist, leftist racism was the motivation and the fact that it seems like you based part of your agenda to rail road and ban us off the hysterical language of a user with brain damage baffles me.

There's no good reason to both keep Es perm banned or uphold all the bans all of us received by Khaleesi. Will you be willing to concede those bans were wrong and have a discussion about resetting them? Keep in mind...there are two sections who want blood..not peace...they want to take a pound of flesh out of the hide of every single moderator our own included and don't care how.

I'm here trying to prevent that..same as I was in 2012...will you listen this time and do the right thing?


Rinoa said:


> IWD, i'm not familiar with OBD, when a question arises about it, i usually tag the section mods always, or turn to them, as they can confirm to you because i'm a pain in the butt on that, is how i try to learn and know about the section, mods are those who are familiar with their sections and regulars.
> *But there are certain global forum rules that applies in any section, i hope you can understand this.*



of course I do, but the ones violating those rules were the staff...not us.

teaming up with users and ordering them to lurk the convo to mass report, coordinating with them on discord to come after us etc etc.

@Kitsune _still refusing to retract her comment about us being racists and apologize
_
and so on...you understand where issues are coming from yes?


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## 青月光 (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> This is actually an excellent post. I also feel that the leaders of any healthy social group need to be people who care about others. I do not claim to be perfect--I am very far from it and I have made many mistakes. However, I do feel that this is something to which we should aspire.



Let´s get on with it


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

just gonna add that i feel this whole venture was a wasted effort

@Xiammes has referred to our legitimate outrage over kitsune's comments as "bullying" and declared that the staff need to protect their own more

but of course, posts like this



and this



aren't bullying at all, they just come with the le stressful territory of being a mod and are obviously taken completely out of context

xiammes and reznor are confirmed to be both in kitsune's pocket so ultimately, as long as those 2 aren't going anywhere, neither is she


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## mali (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Then perhaps you should begin discussing it, because as it stands, Island, Santi and a few other Staff good ol'boys and gals decided to round a crippled black up and hang him from a tree for the crime of daring to view trans issues as a human rights calamity and to think differently.





This is the imagery you use to engender suuport for a banned member on a anime forum? Bit much no?


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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

Hey guys, like yesterday I’ll be available for discussion again. Give me a bit to catch up and I’ll get started.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Mali said:


> This is the imagery you use to engender suuport for a banned member on a anime forum? Bit much no?



Ordinarily I wouldn't because you're right its fucking preposterous, but the staff evidently believe a conspiracy propagated by two users with serious mental problems about how Es, some of the DB guys  and I murdered every minority in the OBD and other such insanity.

I've been accused of terrorism, being the main villain of big trouble in little China town, attempts have been made to threaten Es off site (or so the rumor goes)..they hurled two main sections at us and use the exact same language against me.

Now I'm throwing it back in their faces, so they can appreciate how inane and positively unhinged it is.



Kitsune said:


> Hey guys, like yesterday I’ll be available for discussion again. Give me a bit to catch up and I’ll get started.



Take your time, but do try and retract those racism claims


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Then perhaps you should begin discussing it, because as it stands, Island, Santi and a few other Staff good ol'boys and gals decided to round a crippled black up and hang him from a tree for the crime of daring to view trans issues as a human rights calamity and to think differently.



The discussion for his perm was in the talks, but I acted extrajudicially and carried it out myself before a consensus was reached by us and the motivation behind it was the appearance that he was searching Natty up elsewhere to find dirt and then bringing that information here to taunt her.

You provided me a different story in private when I brought up that matter, and I’ll consider it in future appeals (assuming he doesn’t do anything off-site that’ll make me reconsider).

As for the stuff with Khaleesi, I’ll review the bans and determine if there’s any legitimacy behind them. If I find that the punishment was 1) overly harsh or 2) a questionable ban in the first place I’ll do you the solid and scratch those out. If I find the bans and the case/motivation behind them to be legitimate, then nothing changes.

Is this acceptable?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> Is this acceptable?



It's acceptable though..it concerns me that there's a proviso about potentially finding them legitimate. There was nothing legitimate about our last couple bans. Nostalgiafan especially should have his bans reconsidered as that came out of nowhere.


but its a hell of a start Santi... and I while I won't speak for the DB section, this is a hell of an opening gesture for peace talks on our end.



Santi said:


> The discussion for his perm was in the talks, but I acted extrajudicially and carried it out myself before a consensus was reached by us and the motivation behind it was the appearance that he was searching Natty up elsewhere to find dirt and then bringing that information here to taunt her.?



As I've said before, Es, Ranger, myself and likely some of the DB guys as well view the trans issue as a human rights abuse. We aren't bigoted towards trans people, we consider the methods of treating them to be barbaric, insane, anti-scientific and exploitative. Es, felt attacked, maligned, assaulted and abused but yeah no.

His MO is to go for the throat, not the back 

as said, it was just coincidental and the use of it was in the process of a rather long debate about the ethics of such an action when Es felt cornered and lashed out....As you acted in what you thought was the sites best interest while others debated, so too did he.

y'all mirrored each other in the sequence of events, for good or ill.


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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> So...the root of the issue of you being an obstacle for me becoming an advisor is because...I want to debate things? That I won't be a simple yes-man and have my own opinion about things? I'm gonna be frank here, this is by far the most surprising thing I could've imagined come up to stifle my chance to see the HR or have access as an advisor. I don't see how in any capacity that's a negative trait of mine. I wouldn't lose my shit but I'd certainly want to talk things to fullest before anything gets moved off the table.
> 
> You never even posted in my SCR for advisorship candidates. I'm more baffled now then ever and I don't see how wanting to talk things out is a negative trait for an advisor whose main job is to rep their section and work with mods to make things work better and have less issues down the road.



I think it's a bit of a misconception that HO is full of yes-men or that we're looking for yes-men. Everyone tends to have an individual point of view and sometimes there are many opposing opinions going on in one thread. That's the reason it takes so long to get anything done. In order to finish any discussion, we often have to resort to compromise. In a good compromise, nobody truly gets what they want. I did not get the first advisor candidate I wanted and I had to drop it. In order for the staff to function and move forward, sometimes you have to "lose" a debate. It's not about being a yes-man, it's about being someone people can work with. I'll tell you right now that it's hard to put the ego aside and do that when people are passionate about the causes they care about.



Didi said:


> Do you think your "combatative" style (as confirmed by Xiammes) is helpful in making HR a better place, or does it help in making HR a worse place where you bully people who don't agree with you?



I don't think it's productive to get heated and combative. It happens to everyone, and if you saw that whole conversation you'd know that I was one part of a very spicy discussion. That said, I agree with you that we should better regulate our emotions. People can still have strong opinions and express themselves passionately without resorting to antagonism.



JoJo said:


> so nothing special or significant. you're essentially parroting the same defense they used for voodooknight with the whole "i'm well versed in forum affairs and i do work behind the scenes"



I'm a lot more active than he was. I probably spend a couple hours on NF daily. Some people don't like what I have to contribute and that's their prerogative, but I'm present and fully aware of what's going on.



> you're describing the inner workings or staff, which is essentially leaking. if you're (and not you, but the staff in general) not allowed to talk about specifics on the advisor thing, then that's leaking too



I'm addressing in detail some of the things that are already out there. I think it's the right thing to do. In sharing some of my personal viewpoints, I'm not revealing anything inappropriate considering the context of the leaks.



> also, it's people like you who try and encourage a dichotomy between staff and members that are the cause of all the negativity in the hr.



I think we disagree on the definition of "dichotomy between staff and members" because I do think that it's members who make a forum strong. It's our (volunteer) job to make this place enjoyable for as many people as possible. We obviously have very different opinions about what that means.



> if you care about nf (which you dont), you'll respectfully step down



I do care about NF and as I said before, I will not be stepping down. I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that if you want to work with me on improving things. I'm here to listen and seriously take to heart what you're saying, but I will not be not resigning in the near future.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> @Kitsune _still refusing to retract her comment about us being racists and apologize_



To be honest, I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I know that I once told you your ban reason was for using racist language. Is that what you mean?


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I know that I once told you your ban reason was for using racist language. Is that what you mean?



Yes and ignoring how incorrect that statement would be, what bugs me is that you called myself and others racists specifically from what I remember.


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I will not be stepping down. I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that if you want to work with me on improving things.



The sheer arrogance on this, yikes


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> It's acceptable though..it concerns me that there's a proviso about potentially finding them legitimate. There was nothing legitimate about our last couple bans. Nostalgiafan especially should have his bans reconsidered as that came out of nowhere.
> 
> 
> but its a hell of a start Santi... and I while I won't speak for the DB section, this is a hell of an opening gesture for peace talks on our end.



I don’t recall every ban or the reasoning/evidence behind them, but if the reason for the ban is “user flamed” and as evidence I see a post which reads “go fuck your mother you fat fuck of shit” (hyperbolic example, I know) then I’m obviously not changing anything, even if it was carried out by Khaleesi or whoever else has left recently.


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## Chloe (Jan 25, 2019)




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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Yes and ignoring how incorrect that statement would be, what bugs me is that you called myself and others racists specifically from what I remember.



Well I thought you used racist rhetoric, which is against forum rules. Saying "you used racist language in that post" is different from calling you a racist. I have to do my job sometimes and deliver news that people don't want to hear. I understand your frustration but I'm can't apologize for delivering that bad news.



Didi said:


> The sheer arrogance on this, yikes



I just said that compromise is critical to getting things done on NF. I'm willing to make certain concessions. One thing I'm considering is distancing myself from any future discussions about modding or advisoring people mentioned in this thread.


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## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I think it's a bit of a misconception that HO is full of yes-men



Not from what has been leaked now or in the past if someone doesn't fall in line with a certain faction in the HR.



> or that we're looking for yes-men.



Remains to be seen.



> Everyone tends to have an individual point of view and sometimes there are many opposing opinions going on in one thread. That's the reason it takes so long to get anything done. In order to finish any discussion, we often have to resort to compromise.



Then why were you hurling insults and attacking people like White Wolf and Lewd or Nighty and Trinity for disagreeing with you or calling out your behavior when it isn't proper? That doens't sound like working toward compromises to me.



> In a good compromise, nobody truly gets what they want.



In a "good compromise" both sides get what they desire in a mutually beneficial contract or agreement. That's what a good compromise is. I compromised weeks and weeks of my time with Reznor and Nighty trying to fix issues that OBD section regulars had with the Staff and the changes to the rules and those two agreed to meet me on certain terms. If we go by your definition, then nothing would get done, period.



> I did not get the first advisor candidate I wanted and I had to drop it. In order for the staff to function and move forward, sometimes you have to "lose" a debate. It's not about being a yes-man, it's about being someone people can work with. I'll tell you right now that it's hard to put the ego aside and do that when people are passionate about the causes they care about.



I don't know who you wanted to be an advisor candidate that you wanted to groom but the issue here is your actions, behavior, and how you reacted to not getting things done your way or how you wanted them done; or in this case posters who you didn't like on a personal level being nominated.

So again, you are being evasive and not answering how or why you have specific reasons for not wanting someone like me or Gin simply being advisors representing our sections to work with the Staff. You said last night, about me that I "want to debate things" too much as a negative which doesn't really correlate to a substantial foundation to block me from being an advisor, much less going after Gin's mental health which is an incredibly classless thing to do.

As for egos, mine has been set aside for years now to try to keep my section running between the regulars and the Staff both within and outside of the OBD. I have no idea how much selflessness someone has to show or be the face of a section for over a decade and still be treated as some sort of pariah because you need pretext to avoid wanting to see them in the HR.



> I do care about NF and as I said before, I will not be stepping down. I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that if you want to work with me on improving things. I'm here to listen and seriously take to heart what you're saying, but I will not be not resigning in the near future.



Why is it senior staff are forced to "step down" when they break rules or step outside of the lines even at the top levels like Trinity or Nighty who are former administrators yet you don't have to? Is it because you firmly believe Reznor and Xiammes or Rinoa will protect you from losing your privileges? Your behavior was crass, you comments were insulting and degenerating to Gin and Nighty, you have misbehaved in the past and were punished for it, what exactly does the Staff or the site as a whole gain from you staying in your position given you've had this situation in the past with how you acted occur and you seemed to have learned nothing from it. You don't even post outside of the HR much at all from what I can see in the last several months.

What are you doing that makes you staying in so vital to NF? I want to know legitimately how this trumps what your actions have shown with the advisor debacle, or words you said about Gin or how you treated Nighty or causing Trinity to be forced out.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> To be honest, I'm not sure what you're referring to here. I know that I once told you, your ban reason was for using racist language. Is that what you mean?





Santi said:


> even if it was carried out by Khaleesi or whoever else has left recently.


 Khaleesi has racist beliefs that were outlined as being more than shit post talk despite the mountain of excuses made. Kitsune has poor judgement herself and doesn't admit her mistakes honestly. A person who says something they didn't hear themselves while fully believing it, or we even see passing any sort of judgement based on it doesn't deserve the position.
Pardons being made from poor judgement that didn't understand the full context of the situation are reasonable.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I don’t recall every ban or the reasoning/evidence behind them, but if the reason for the ban is “user flamed” and as evidence I see a post which reads “go fuck your mother you fat fuck of shit” (hyperbolic example, I know) then I’m obviously not changing anything, even if it was carried out by Khaleesi or whoever else has left recently.



Well...yeah, no. I won't ask you to break the rules or suborn their violations. The alley demands that enough from you.



Kitsune said:


> Well I thought you used racist rhetoric, which is against forum rules. Saying "you used racist language in that post" is different from calling you a racist. I have to do my job sometimes and deliver news that people don't want to hear. I understand your frustration but I'm can't apologize for delivering that bad news..



You specifically called me a racist, but that aside you came to this misinformed conclusion based on your personal views and not a strict take on the rules. We were not being racist, you had an emotional reaction to a view we shared and reacted on your political biases.

Which is the heart of our concerns with you...You didn't do your job, you weren't even a moderator then. You entered the thread as a retired staffer purely to call me a bigot and _after I had been banned
_
you came in to antagonize...so your memories of these events are clearly...off. Or you've just admitted that as a retired moderator, you were handing out bans to users based off your personal political preferences and doing so in contrivance of the rules allegedly governing the staff.


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## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'm a lot more active than he was. I probably spend a couple hours on NF daily. Some people don't like what I have to contribute and that's their prerogative, but I'm present and fully aware of what's going on.


I'm not sure if you intentionally misinterpreted what I said. But I'll explain it again. Your entire defense/justification on what you do for NF is indistinguishable to what the staff said to shill for voodooknight. 

Whether you're more active or not than him is irreverent because I'm not making direct comparisons to you or voodooknight and saying you guys are 1:1 to eachother and that's why you're a bad staff member and should be demoted. No, what I'm saying is that, like voodooknight who contributed nothing, but when asked why he's needed, the staff said "he used to be a super active member and helps a lot in the HR" 

which is exactly what you said. 



> Some people don't like what I have to contribute


Let me directly address this right here and say what people feel is irrelevant. You objectively bring almost nothing positive to the staff or the HR. Whether you want to disagree with this, or whether you want your friends to shill you is simply peripheral to the fact. You seclude yourself in the HR, you trash talk members, you don't do any actual moderation, you don't post, you don't contribute to sections, etc. 

These are the facts and premises on which everything here is predicated on. Whether you want to challenge them or not is up to you. I imagine you will not because you can't and know, even though I may present them as a bit too absolute and extreme, they are effectively true.

So yeah, with that statement viewed in a vacuum it's not that "some people don't like what I have to contribute"

it'd be "certain members know that I contribute absolutely nothing worthwhile, but others have personal feelings where they like it and like me" 



Kitsune said:


> I'm addressing in detail some of the things that are already out there. I think it's the right thing to do. In sharing some of my personal viewpoints, I'm not revealing anything inappropriate considering the context of the leaks.


You almost described transparency here. It'd be good if the the pretext for you doing this wasn't because your scummery was exposed. 

also, if you read my post and actually responded to what I am mentioning or what I'm referring to, you'd see that what you said is entirely irrelevant. I mentioned how you spoke about things in the HR to krory, what mega was doing, etc. Things aren't supposed to be mentioned. 

That is, for all intents and purposes when using the staff's definition of it, """"""""""leaking""""""""""


Kitsune said:


> I think we disagree on the definition of "dichotomy between staff and members" because I do think that it's members who make a forum strong. It's our (volunteer) job to make this place enjoyable for as many people as possible. We obviously have very different opinions about what that means.



We do not, because there is a clear division between certain staff and how they view members. You're one of them. 

Your words are meaningless because you quite often spout garbage and have essentially lost anything concrete behind your words that would offer credibility or give you the benefit of the doubt allowing others to believe what you're saying. 

You say bad members need time to reform? well shitty staff need time to reform and it's unbelievable that over night you can be "good staff." So put what you're saying into practice here for several months and we'll see if truly disagree and if you really feel this way 



Kitsune said:


> I do care about NF and as I said before, I will not be stepping down. I'm afraid you're going to have to accept that if you want to work with me on improving things. I'm here to listen and seriously take to heart what you're saying, but I will not be not resigning in the near future.


I like that. You say you care about NF, and then the very next thing you say after it is related to your position and how you will not be losing it. Because for you, especially right now, NF is just the HR and what you can do in it. Which is essentially, whatever you want because of the solidarity in being staff. 

If you truly want someone to believe that you are different, and will be different, why not take other staff as an example? Trinity literally ousted herself because he admitted to being the leaker and that was wrong. Why do you take no responsibility other than throwaway comments of "I'm not totally horrible and I will be better!!! pls let's make NF better together!!!"? How about you take real responsibility and show you're not like staff who casually trash talk members and allow toxicity within the staff and put yourself on probation? 

I don't mean probation where reznor relieves you of it earlier than intended, I mean actual probation where you're just a normal member for a certain amount of time.

Reactions: Like 3


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

@Kitsune this post is fairly racially biased as you're targeting the kid because he is white and making an assumption on his social views based on his skin color...views that have been proven to be the product of a grotesque misinformation campaign by media outlets currently being sued for slander and libel.

Do you feel you have a moral high ground to us? That you can express these views because the targets are acceptable? You seem willing to own up to your mistakes...can you own up to this one?





Unlosing Ranger said:


> Khaleesi has racist beliefs that were outlined as being more than shit post talk despite the mountain of excuses made. Kitsune has poor judgement herself and doesn't admit her mistakes honestly. A person who says something they didn't hear themselves while fully believing it, or we even see passing any sort of judgement based on it doesn't deserve the position.
> Pardons being made from poor judgement that didn't understand the full context of the situation are reasonable.



And this is the crux of it, no ban that Khaleesi had any involvement in, even if it was mere discussion should be considered. Es for example was only perm banned due to Khaleesi's antics and their confrontations in his court thread (which he shared with us) prove her inability to mod properly.

her bans..any..any that she even expressed an opinion on, for any user, anywhere on the site should be called into question.

You guys want peace, we need accountability.


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Khaleesi has racist beliefs that were outlined as being more than shit post talk despite the mountain of excuses made. Kitsune has poor judgement herself and doesn't admit her mistakes honestly. A person who says something they didn't hear themselves while fully believing it, or we even see passing any sort of judgement based on it doesn't deserve the position.
> Pardons being made from poor judgement that didn't understand the full context of the situation are reasonable.



I’ll be reviewing the context of the offending posts as well, I’ll probably go a step further and present them to you individually in the SCR if further discussion on the post(s) in question is necessary.

But I stand by that even if you question the judgement of the mod, I’m not overturning anything which is cut and paste rule breaking, which context is going to do very little to absolve in most cases.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

I already told you Kits they don't have any faith in you. You don't compromise with people you don't have faith in and it's not their job to come around to your line of thinking. It's YOUR job to convince them they should trust you. Something the staff is utterly terrible at I know. Right now you may as well be Trump trying to sell the wall.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 25, 2019)

I am resisting the urge to not post a Trump meme.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> But I stand by that even if you question the judgement of the mod, I’m not overturning anything which is cut and paste rule breaking, which context is going to do very little to absolve in most cases.



That's all our side of the aggreived parties have been asking for. So I'll be departing this thread as I expect no humility from Kitsune regarding admitting she is prejudiced and lied.

Can you keep me abreast of the situation via PM? The ban stuff I mean.


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Can you keep me abreast of the situation via PM? The ban stuff I mean.



Of course.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> Then why were you hurling insults and attacking people like White Wolf and Lewd or Nighty and Trinity for disagreeing with you or calling out your behavior when it isn't proper? That doens't sound like working toward compromises to me.



Again, I'd like you to consider the possibility that you've only received one side of the story. I'm unable to share certain details in defending myself, so I suppose I just have to endure your frustration. I know that hearing this isn't going to ease your mind but my hands are tied.



> In a "good compromise" both sides get what they desire in a mutually beneficial contract or agreement. That's what a good compromise is. I compromised weeks and weeks of my time with Reznor and Nighty trying to fix issues that OBD section regulars had with the Staff and the changes to the rules and those two agreed to meet me on certain terms. If we go by your definition, then nothing would get done, period.



It's usually more than a "both sides" situation. There are often three or more angles to reconcile. That said, I do recognize your commitment over the years. While it's my own personal opinion that you have a hard time letting go or compromising in contentious debates, I do acknowledge that you have a lot to offer.



> I don't know who you wanted to be an advisor candidate that you wanted to groom but the issue here is your actions, behavior, and how you reacted to not getting things done your way or how you wanted them done; or in this case posters who you didn't like on a personal level being nominated.



I wouldn't exactly call it personal. I don't know Gin personally and I don't actually dislike you. You were one of the first people in the Blender to accept me and be friendly towards me way back in 2009, and I've never forgotten that. We've spent countless hours together in various chat groups and I actually like you on a personal level. I just had some concerns about you as a staff member. Please remember that I'm only one voice and I plan to remove myself from discussions surrounding your advisorship/modship in the future.



> So again, you are being evasive and not answering how or why you have specific reasons for not wanting someone like me or Gin simply being advisors representing our sections to work with the Staff. You said last night, about me that I "want to debate things" too much as a negative which doesn't really correlate to a substantial foundation to block me from being an advisor, much less going after Gin's mental health which is an incredibly classless thing to do.



I've already explained that with Gin it's about enduring massive stress and antagonism. With you it's about being somewhat stubborn and inflexible. This is just my personal opinion.



> As for egos, mine has been set aside for years now to try to keep my section running between the regulars and the Staff both within and outside of the OBD. I have no idea how much selflessness someone has to show or be the face of a section for over a decade and still be treated as some sort of pariah because you need pretext to avoid wanting to see them in the HR.



You are not a pariah and I think the way you've comported yourself over the past few days has been a good way to prove me wrong. You stayed polite and didn't delight in the drama threads.



> Why is it senior staff are forced to "step down" when they break rules or step outside of the lines even at the top levels like Trinity or Nighty who are former administrators yet you don't have to? Is it because you firmly believe Reznor and Xiammes or Rinoa will protect you from losing your privileges? Your behavior was crass, you comments were insulting and degenerating to Gin and Nighty, you have misbehaved in the past and were punished for it, what exactly does the Staff or the site as a whole gain from you staying in your position given you've had this situation in the past with how you acted occur and you seemed to have learned nothing from it. You don't even post outside of the HR much at all from what I can see in the last several months.
> 
> What are you doing that makes you staying in so vital to NF? I want to know legitimately how this trumps what your actions have shown with the advisor debacle, or words you said about Gin or how you treated Nighty or causing Trinity to be forced out.



Leaking is a cardinal sin in HO. That's pretty much the only thing that can get a person immediately destaffed, other than illegal activities or doxxing.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> You specifically called me a racist, but that aside you thought this based on your personal views and not a strict take on the rules. We were not being racist, you had an emotional reaction to a view we shared and reacted on your political biases.
> 
> Which is the heart of our concerns with you...You didn't do your job, you weren't even a moderator then. You entered the thread as a retired staffer purely to call me a bigot and _after I had been banned
> _
> ...



I'm very sorry but I will not be apologizing for telling you your posts were considered racist according to our forum rules. I personally believe that it's our duty to keep certain discussions clean and free of aggressive bigotry. You are free to disagree with my stance on this.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

>thread specifically about kitsune's HR posts and poor modding practices related to those
>majority of the 'discussion' is IWD presenting half truths trying to get his buddy unbanned
>meanwhile kitsune straight up ignores my latest reply to her



and just to weigh in briefly on the 'other' issue, calling out some little shits wearing MAGA hats isn't indicative of racial bias against white people

it's indicative of not approving of people who are supportive of trump's obvious bigotry

and i reiterate, can someone make another thread called "unban Es" or something so IWD doesn't keep derailing this one

ty


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Honestly, it's foolish to expect her to step down gracefully -- what we've shown here already shows the lengths she's willing to go to keep her online status and power, even going so far as to fabricating harassment claims against detractors to get them shamed out of Discord channels.

And not only is she completely glazing over multiple issues in her responses, but now that we actively have Gin posting respectably and respectfully she's just completely ignoring the posts of someone she called mentally unstable (a fact that she never even actually _apologized for_ -- she only apologized that he found out about it).

We're expected to believe that she'll be held to these new Codes of Conduct for moderators (again, why were these never in place to begin with?), but how is any normal member supposed to know? And how is this supposed to instill any kind of reassurance when, with presented proof and evidence of abuse of power and breaking what are now Codes of Conduct, the most we can muster out of _*any*_ staff member right now is either "Sorry you had to find out this happened" or "Yeah, this happens a lot." We're supposed to be okay with this?

Then again, we already knew where this was heading as current staff both already confirmed that they were planning on letting certain members come in here to derail the thread, and that right from the very start Xiammes wanted to punish us for "bullying" because they need to "protect their own." (again, it needs to be illustrated that _current staff members are still leaking, despite the public assumption that they got rid of the leaker, and they are doing this because they know what Kits did was wrong but nothing can be or will be done about it_).


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I'm very sorry but I will not be apologizing for telling you your posts were considered racist according to our forum rules. I personally believe that it's our duty to keep certain discussion clean and free of aggressive bigotry. You are free to disagree with my stance on this.



The problem is that they weren't the ban itself was unjust and as Ranger just showed now...you, yourself are guilty of racist language towards whites.


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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

While I'm drafting replies, it's hard to keep up with the new ones rolling in. I didn't intentionally ignore any posts. There's a lot to get through here.

I also feel like the tone of this conversation is going south. As much as I want to give you the respect of an explanation, I'm not going to be roped into an argument. I'll give this a little time to cool off and come back later this afternoon.


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

I mean, I'm done. All just empty PR bullshit about how she definitely totally agrees with everything we're saying, it's just coincidence that everything we've seen stands completely opposite to that. And over that a veneer of "haha I'm untouchable and here to stay and there's nothing you can do about it, suck it"


Add to that the fact she straightup won't react to the most explicit call-outs and examples and this is pointless. I've utterly lost my faith in nf staff - again.


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> I also feel like the tone of this conversation is going south. As much as I want to give you the respect of an explanation, I'm not going to be roped into an argument. I'll give this a little time to cool off and come back later this afternoon.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

@Santi please grow some balls and delete posts that aren't on topic and threadban the clowns who are just here to bait and derail, otherwise kitsune actually has a legit excuse for not responding anymore, which i know you'd probably love but we wouldn't, so i'd appreciate it if you did your job


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The problem is that they weren't the ban itself was unjust and as Ranger just showed now...you, yourself are guilty of racist language towards whites.



"dumb kids"
"smug kid"

which of these are racist language
stop trying to derail this shit with your own dumb little saltfest


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> @Santi please grow some balls and delete posts that aren't on topic and threadban the clowns who are just here to bait and derail, otherwise kitsune actually has a legit excuse for not responding anymore, which i know you'd probably love but we wouldn't, so i'd appreciate it if you did your job



I just woke up breh.

And I legitimately stood up the WHOLE NIGHT two nights ago _just _to combat the Kitsunegate fallout, and then carrying on the rest of my day like normal. I woke up with my jeans and shoes still on this afternoon, trying to figure out when the hell I passed out and for how long I’ve been out.

I... I don’t have much more in me to give, I want to watch anime and play my video games now

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I just woke up breh.


you responded to one of my posts 90 minutes ago

and another post 40 minutes ago

unless you have the shortest naps ever then


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I... I don’t have much more in me to give, I want to watch anime and play my video games now



You can do that when you retire. This is what you signed up for when you accepted the position. Have fun... or don't.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> you responded to one of my posts 90 minutes ago
> 
> and another post 40 minutes ago
> 
> unless you have the shortest naps ever then



Yeah, all from the sound comfort of my bed


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> @Santi please grow some balls and delete posts that aren't on topic and threadban the clowns who are just here to bait and derail, otherwise kitsune actually has a legit excuse for not responding anymore, which i know you'd probably love but we wouldn't, so i'd appreciate it if you did your job





Oh, look... leak prediction was right.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

attitudes like santi's are ironically precisely how kitsune has acquired so much power

'cause she's prepared to spend all day trying to argue against people she doesn't like and everyone else is just like zzzzzzzzz fine can we just finish this


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## TheCupOfBrew (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I just woke up breh.
> 
> And I legitimately stood up the WHOLE NIGHT two nights ago _just _to combat the Kitsunegate fallout, and then carrying on the rest of my day like normal. I woke up with my jeans and shoes still on this afternoon, trying to figure out when the hell I passed out and for how long I’ve been out.
> 
> I... I don’t have much more in me to give, I want to watch anime and play my video games now


You better be watching Jojo


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> Yeah, all from the sound comfort of my bed


just got up =/= just woke up you hack


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

D.Va said:


> You better be watching Jojo



Post like this are why Q&C need the "Get Out" rating.


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 25, 2019)

To be honest I dont see where this derailing is happening. I see people speaking their minds and trying to resolve grievances while a few people complain about their grievances not being answered fast enough. Just relax


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## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

I'm just gonna ask. Are we really expecting staff as a whole to change? And, if you are. You must be smoking some good ass weed. Cause, it's this reason and the favoritism in who gets punished for the same shit be it staff/member is not the same as the next man.


That's why this place is a joke.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> To be honest I dont see where this derailing is happening. I see people speaking their minds and trying to resolve grievances while a few people complain about their grievances not being answered fast enough. Just relax


posts like this



Juub said:


> @Gin the Nighty @Krory Got a deal for you. You guys get rid of Reznor, help me get his position. I ban whoever you want and promote Gin to adviser. Deal?


are straight up derailing/baiting

i don't mind IWD arguing his case, but i wish he'd do it in another thread 'cause it's a different matter to the one outlined in the OP of this one, and it's just causing too much mayhem and will just give kitsune an excuse to quit the whole thing


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> just got up =/= just woke up you hack



Well I mean, 90 minutes still isn’t a whole lot of time to: go through and handle reports, patrol my assigned sections (which are 2/3 of the largest and most active sections on this board)/some shitposting while I do so, catch up on everything going on inside the HO, respond to private PMs that users send me, catch up on reading this thread, and THEN cleaning it up of the unnecessaries.

I’m just one Santi


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## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> While I'm drafting replies, it's hard to keep up with the new ones rolling in. I didn't intentionally ignore any posts. There's a lot to get through here.
> 
> I also feel like the tone of this conversation is going south. As much as I want to give you the respect of an explanation, I'm not going to be roped into an argument. I'll give this a little time to cool off and come back later this afternoon.


 

where is it going south (and maybe why is it going south)? can you make a specific and non generalized statement on it?


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Like, I’m still trying to make brunch for myself as I type this


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> posts like this
> 
> 
> are straight up derailing/baiting
> ...


Aren't you doing the same thing by constantly complaining about it?
Also why should he go elsewhere when the grievance is against one person and this thread is about that person. You want his/her attention to be even further divided?

Stop complaining about it. IWD didnt lose his mind when he didnt get a response immediately and neither should you


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## Chloe (Jan 25, 2019)

leaking being a cardinal sin is such a farce, especially in the year of 2019
like you guys have made overall pretty poor promotion choices over the past year that most of the forum population was against
half of these could have been avoided too with a bit of transparency or ““““leaks””””

Reactions: Like 1


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Chloe said:


> leaking being a cardinal sin is such a farce, especially in the year of 2019
> like you guys have made overall pretty poor promotion choices over the past year that most of the forum population was against
> half of these could have been avoided too with a bit of transparency or ““““leaks””””



Oh, leaking isn't a sin of itself... it's all a matter of _*who*_ leaks, apparently.


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## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> Aren't you doing the same thing by constantly complaining about it?
> Also why should he go elsewhere when the grievance is against one person and this thread is about that person. You want his/her attention to be even further divided?
> 
> Stop complaining about it. IWD didnt lose his mind when he didnt get a response immediately and neither should you


he's mostly referencing the earlier posts in this thread where members were negging and baiting

and then it was cleaned up

and then happened again

all of this while the staff try and push a narrative where the Q&C is the best section to settle member/staff issues when the reality of it that it isn't

he's not complaining about the fact that people are posting off topic shit (iwd is being respectful about his case and not causing issues), it's others who are coming with comments that are unrelated and are ultimately detrimental to the thread's discourse

the most ironic thing, is that this is a thread about kitsune and how she does nothing. and  yet she isn't even the one who is trying to keep everything on topic to give herself the easiest time in responding 

like that in itself is just a testament to everything lmao


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## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

Well, I expect to be ignored by the shitstaff here, and you guys are foolish even trying to have this conversation with the staff. *They do not care who they offend. They do not care about being right or wrong cause they are always right. You either just deal with it or leave and find somewhere else to post. No point in even having this argument with them cause it will go nowhere. *


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## Matariki (Jan 25, 2019)

Grey Wolf said:


> Well, I expect to be ignored by the shitstaff here, and you guys are foolish even trying to have this conversation with the staff. They do not care who they offend. They do not care about being right or wrong cause they are always right. You either just deal with it or leave and find somewhere else to post. No point in even having this argument with them cause it will go nowhere.



are you a friend of White Wolf


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 25, 2019)

JoJo said:


> he's mostly referencing the earlier posts in this thread where members were negging and baiting
> 
> and then it was cleaned up
> 
> ...


I appreciate the reply clearing upness of your post. 
It's just that constantly complaining about details, derails in itself, hell us just having to address it is derailing. And we should just drop the derailing argument all together. As long as people are staying g on topic and being reasonable with one another it wont matter if those people come in and bait as everyone else will be focused on the topic at hand to care


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

D.Va said:


> You better be watching Jojo



Still needa watch eps 15 & 16, but yes I'm keeping up.


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## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

Masterblack06 said:


> I appreciate the reply clearing upness of your post.
> It's just that constantly complaining about details, derails in itself, hell us just having to address it is derailing. And we should just drop the derailing argument all together. As long as people are staying g on topic and being reasonable with one another it wont matter if those people come in and bait as everyone else will be focused on the topic at hand to care


agreed, but it's not just about that 

we're all willing to come here and discuss things on their terms and not stay in section to call out bad staff. if we're willing to meet them halfway, they should too. 

i'd like to ignore it all, like i have been, but i can't control others


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 25, 2019)

JoJo said:


> agreed, but it's not just about that
> 
> we're all willing to come here and discuss things on their terms and not stay in section to call out bad staff. if we're willing to meet them halfway, they should too.
> 
> i'd like to ignore it all, like i have been, but i can't control others



That is 100% true, though we cant control when someone can be online or not, that's another thing that's an issue. If all parties involved were online I feel like stuff could get resolved easier but depending on the person they might not want to be online or if they are the problem they might not get on until someone gives them the okay to come back so they can avoid the trouble.


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

JoJo said:


> agreed, but it's not just about that
> 
> we're all willing to come here and discuss things on their terms and not stay in section to call out bad staff. if we're willing to meet them halfway, they should too.
> 
> i'd like to ignore it all, like i have been, but i can't control others



Erio already managed to derail it again by getting Santi to talk about anime instead of attending to this.

gg ez folks.


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Seiko said:


> are you a friend of White Wolf


Hell no.


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## The Gr8 Destroyer (Jan 25, 2019)

@Kitsune  hope you've been well.  Man things sure got serious around here and whatnot. Oh don't worry I have absolutely no ambition to mod/advise around here feel free to pm and chat me later about other stuff than this. 

To be perfectly honest no clue how to even post pics on here anymore do we still need a host site? 

Need to make this quick new kid is currently shitting while sitting in my lap and while I am at that sweet spot where my confidence level in this diaper is at its highest for this cycle(long story short every time you change sizes there is a gray area where the diaper is too big or too small and they don't work right: that's a cycle, anywho)

Kits I hope most of the members here can see past the current issues they have and realize you are a kind person and have been for years just because there are times folks don't see eye to eye does not make for a conspiracy unless it's my wife who I am sure still wants me dead for that time I totally burped when she and I were in the middle of kissing. People have all kinds of personalities and we all look for reasons as to why they don't always mesh but to think anyone is actively putting in so much energy to make someone upset or impede them from goals is a little myopic.

@Fang  I have known you for a bit and have dealt with your past self and know how much of a charmer you were. You have seemed to change though and thankfully for the better and the fact you have continuously been a staple here shows your dedication and personally I wouldn't think making you a mod would be a bad idea. I also hope though you look at your composure and response to this issue and contrast it with the other folks and realize that while you and they did not get the position you all seek their responses reflect that in not every case was it a bad decision. 

I have just got back from a conference where I am tasked with picking individuals to be leaders in an organization of about 10000 people (ironic right) and the few that get selected get an all expense trip for 3 days to a conference and work shop to a nice warm place (an example was new orleans during carnavale). I had one guy who was a total shit threw his application out. I did feel guilty. Then he sent a nasty gram letter which totally made me feel vindicated. The point I am making was in his email he went on about how he did so much and sacrificed so much etc... The thing was he wanted it for the prestige and the thought that what he had contributed thus far made it so he deserved this position. I doubt he really even cared that point of this program is to put folks in positions to help the organization and make it better. I hope that all the folks that applied for this advisor gig did it because they wanted to help this place not because they think they are entitled to it

Also a compromise is when both parties don't get what they want its the definition its called a win/lose, win/lose scenario a win-win scenario is called a collaboration which I hope is where this staff/advisor/member thing may end up some day. I have a pic that explains this but well as I already stated no clue how to show you lot.

tl;dr Peace out back to diaper duty. I will be here for a bit longer at least until my paternity leave is through. Love you forum nerds

~Gr8

Reactions: Like 2


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

The Gr8 Destroyer said:


> @Kitsune  hope you've been well.  Man things sure got serious around here and whatnot. Oh don't worry I have absolutely no ambition to mod/advise around here feel free to pm and chat me later about other stuff than this.
> 
> To be perfectly honest no clue how to even post pics on here anymore do we still need a host site?
> 
> ...




I love you gr8 and wish you and your kid(s) all the best but goddamn what a brownnosing post

Just because Kitsune used to be a fun person to be around and excellent to play mafia with doesn't excuse her current behaviour

Reactions: Like 2


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Didi said:


> "dumb kids"
> "smug kid"
> 
> which of these are racist language
> stop trying to derail this shit with your own dumb little saltfest


It's not about racist language it's about how much she jumps the gun and assumes that someone is racist. Apparently Gin is just as bad as Kitsune with the response that was given just now. Gin doesn't deserve their position on failing such a simple Litmus Test.


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## The Gr8 Destroyer (Jan 25, 2019)

Didi said:


> I love you gr8 and wish you and your kid(s) all the best but goddamn what a brownnosing post
> 
> Just because Kitsune used to be a fun person to be around and excellent to play mafia with doesn't excuse her current behaviour


Love you too Didi but I am not looking to gain anything so that precludes brown nosing. I am just saying everyone chill out make necessary apologies where applicable and lets move on and get drunk its Friday somewhere, 12:00 o'clock too

Reactions: Like 1


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## Leeroy Jenkins (Jan 25, 2019)

A question I have is why when a staff member says something along the lines of what Kitsune said about Gin, it's not just something an admin lectures them about, but they have to show the member what they said and apologize to them immediately. Outraged staff members shouldn't have to ferry it out of HR undercover like it's top secret info and then have a proper apology long after the fact. 

That it came within discussions about being a staff member seems like it would be a no brainer to remove her from the discussion entirely, for all members in consideration. That this isn't the case shows me there is a flaw in the collective decision making.


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## Matariki (Jan 25, 2019)

Users Who Are Viewing This Thread
*Mbxx

*


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Seiko said:


> Users Who Are Viewing This Thread
> *Mbxx
> 
> *


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

20 pages doe

oh well, I'm off duty today


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## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> 20 pages doe
> 
> oh well, I'm off duty today


truly supporting the staff


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## Magic (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Khaleesi has racist beliefs that were outlined as being more than shit post talk despite the mountain of excuses made. Kitsune has poor judgement herself and doesn't admit her mistakes honestly. A person who says something they didn't hear themselves while fully believing it, or we even see passing any sort of judgement based on it doesn't deserve the position.
> Pardons being made from poor judgement that didn't understand the full context of the situation are reasonable.



Nice reach. Try harder.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

RemChu said:


> Nice reach. Try harder.


Okay, so you want Kitsune?


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## Magic (Jan 25, 2019)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Okay, so you want Kitsune?


No, there was nothing racist in that comment. 
Just an initial reaction to what was presented in a news story. 

Pretty clear, fact you are trying to twist that into racist comments/tirade is very disingenuous.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

RemChu said:


> No, there was nothing racist in that comment.
> Just an initial reaction to what was presented in a news story.
> 
> Pretty clear, fact you are trying to twist that into racist comments/tirade is very disingenuous.


I never said there was anything racist in the comment.


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## Magic (Jan 25, 2019)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> The problem is that they weren't the ban itself was unjust and as Ranger just showed now...you, yourself are guilty of racist language towards whites.


@Unlosing Ranger

You lot are a team so I confused the two of you, my bad. Point still stands. 

Also, go make your own complaint thread for delusional bigots?


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## Masterblack06 (Jan 25, 2019)

RemChu said:


> @Unlosing Ranger
> 
> You lot are a team so I confused the two of you, my bad. Point still stands.
> 
> Also, go make your own complaint thread for delusional bigots?


We just had a conversation about this. Get outta here with this bait


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

RemChu said:


> @Unlosing Ranger
> 
> You lot are a team so I confused the two of you, my bad. Point still stands.


And my point was strengthened with your reaction just now with your point not applying to me.


RemChu said:


> Also, go make your own complaint thread for delusional bigots?





Unlosing Ranger said:


> It's not about racist language it's about how much she jumps the gun and assumes that someone is racist. Apparently Gin is just as bad as Kitsune with the response that was given just now. Gin doesn't deserve their position on failing such a simple Litmus Test.


*checks Remchu onto the Litmus Test*
I can see how the mods can easily doop you all.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Alibaba Saluja said:


> What I'm trying to say is that the ones who should have power should be the most humane people, at least at the top. So you should get someone who's a good person as adm.
> 
> Tl:dr
> 
> Get someone who cares about others.


See the thing about organizations - forums for instance - is that they're frequently founded and built up by idealistic, generous people who have a vision and the will to see it through. So it was with NF.
But then organizations with hierarchies - which is basically all of them - are usually corrupted and brought low by various miscreants who care more about power than advancing the goals of the organization, because they, unlike the 'normal' people in the organization, are focused on accumulating power and not on their jobs, and therefore quickly attain power, and then neglect it once attained.

Because I'm brilliant and incorruptible and stuck around a lot longer than anyone could have expected, I prevented this degeneration from occuring for over a decade. But I got tired and it didn't take long for things to go south when I gave up the ghost.

I have to take responsibility, however. I'm the one who basically modded Kitsune. Someone else recommended her, but I orchestrated the series of events that led to it. I like strong-minded, aggressive people, and she was no exception. 
Alas. She was one of the aforementioned problems with legacy organizations. I'm sure she would happily dispose of me right now just because I'm a loose end, if she could. Probably she'll be able to eventually. All I do is shitpost while she's still organizing power bases.



Luck said:


> Y is Fang blacklisted from being a mod?


Fang is kind of a huge dickbag, he's been off the potential modlist for like 10 years. 


> the ones who should have power should be the most humane people, at least at the top. So you should get someone who's a good person
> Tl:dr
> Get someone who cares about others.


This is not fang

I've recommended to the staff over and over again to make all policy debate visible to the forum population, because they are clearly no longer capable of acting rationally without oversight, infested with power brokers and led by the weak as they are. But the allure of the super sekrit spechul Room Where It Happens™ is too strong.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Maybe Fang has changed tho idk


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## Catamount (Jan 25, 2019)

Can you stop bringing up the personal differences between you as individials and agree to be a community in this particular thread for this particular case. Your individualities overflow with quality, but for this once it is not a one-on-one thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

I don’t appreciate people shitting on my niga @Fang like that.


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> Maybe Fang has changed tho idk


He has big time.


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## Didi (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang = Shrek confirmed


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> Maybe Fang has changed tho idk



He has, which is kind of a point. Although I don't like him personally, he's hardly the "huge dickbag" he used to be. However yes, he's been perm-blacklisted even from advisor position.

Though it's kind of messed up they led him on to think he had a shot whereas there were many, many others that were told outright or soon after they were out (kind of like how Gin was).


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## Chloe (Jan 25, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


>


don’t make me reiatsu crush you kid


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Chloe said:


> don’t make me reiatsu crush you kid


Yeah I rather have someonelse on staff but go full .


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2019)

Krory said:


> He has, which is kind of a point. Although I don't like him personally, he's hardly the "huge dickbag" he used to be. However yes, he's been perm-blacklisted even from advisor position.
> 
> Though it's kind of messed up they led him on to think he had a shot whereas there were many, many others that were told outright or soon after they were out (kind of like how Gin was).


We're talking about guilt by association and blaming things that are far into the past for a user. Especially pit towards someone like Fang.
People that make snap judgments like Kitsune and hold onto them forever with no real near current evidence or even real evidence to begin with in many cases aren't fit for the position that is held.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

It's less who can do the job and more of who your buddy with in terms of maintaining or gaining modship. If Fang so called a dickhead, well 95 percent of the staff is already, so that really is moot. Hell, I know for a fact I can do the job better than most of the staff and without the bias and bullshit cause I actually have been mod/admin in plenty of places.

And, if I were in charge, alot of you would have been held super accountable for your actions.


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Grey Wolf said:


> It's less who can do the job and more of who your buddy with in terms of maintaining or gaining modship. If Fang so called a dickhead, well 95 percent of the staff is already, so that really is moot. Hell, I know for a fact I can do the job better than most of the staff and without the bias and bullshit cause I actually have been mod/admin in plenty of places.
> 
> And, if I were in charge, alot of you would have been held super accountable for your actions.


Seems like staff ain't goona demod Kitsune so looks like your right.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> See the thing about organizations - forums for instance - is that they're frequently founded and built up by idealistic, generous people who have a vision and the will to see it through. So it was with NF.
> But then organizations with hierarchies - which is basically all of them - are usually corrupted and brought low by various miscreants who care more about power than advancing the goals of the organization, because they, unlike the 'normal' people in the organization, are focused on accumulating power and not on their jobs, and therefore quickly attain power, and then neglect it once attained.
> 
> Because I'm brilliant and incorruptible and stuck around a lot longer than anyone could have expected, I prevented this degeneration from occuring for over a decade. But I got tired and it didn't take long for things to go south when I gave up the ghost.
> ...


good, honest take on things, shame you aren't more invested anymore 'cause tbqh this kind of attitude from an active admin is really necessary rn

only point i disagree on/am questioning is why you describe kitsune as "strong minded and aggressive" and considered her at one time a good staff candidate, but fang is "a huge dickbag" and an unsuitable staff candidate

i've only known fang for less than a year, and he's argumentative and doesn't let things go easily, but i don't see how this deviates from the strong mindedness you seem to admire in a potential mod

as i see it the main difference between how fang and kitsune would handle things is that fang actually has principles, so he'd approach things honestly and wouldn't pull any punches, while kitsune's primarily concerned with securing power for herself and will say anything to protect her image or at least how she appears to her forum superiors

so i guess what counts against fang is that he's more of a potential PR disaster 'cause he wouldn't attempt to cover what he said up, while kitsune would expend every effort to do so

it's just a shame that this has to be the way of things, dishonesty is valued over being principled because it's "safer" in terms of staff stability


----------



## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

Well, we got most of you bozo's not even addressing everyone, so it's pointless to even speak on this matter anymore. Kitsune should be removed. And, you guys should remove your bias on who can become staff cause bout 80 percent of you are garbage for the job.


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## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue it was kinda of fucked up calling Fang a dickbag.


----------



## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Blue it was kinda of fucked up calling Fang a dickbag.



Tbf, Fang _was_ a huge dickbag, but Blue admitted that he doesn't know of Fang has changed of late (I think Fang could admit in his heyday Blender days years ago he kind of was). And Kits might as well admit she doesn't care if he has.


----------



## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Krory said:


> Tbf, Fang _was_ a huge dickbag, but Blue admitted that he doesn't know of Fang has changed of late (I think Fang could admit in his heyday Blender days years ago he kind of was). And Kits might as well admit she doesn't care if he has.


I was around when mad Fang when in the Obd but he's changed.


----------



## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Blue it was kinda of fucked up calling Fang a dickbag.


Yo you want honesty you take the good with the bad. 

Sorry lemme go back.

Each and every single one of you is a highly valued member of the forum, and your opinions are always close to our hearts. Let me assure you that your concerns about certain members of the staff are being evaluated with the closest attention to detail, and we will absolutely keep an open mind when it comes to selecting advisors, mods, and other staff members in the future.



> only point i disagree on/am questioning is why you describe kitsune as "strong minded and aggressive" and considered her at one time a good staff candidate, but fang is "a huge dickbag" and an unsuitable staff candidate


If you read between the lines, I called her much worse things than I called fang, but sure,


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## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

Nah I was a massive dickhead in the old days, tbqh.


----------



## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

the most recent podcast hosted by wad (wadcast) in which I'm a guest. I think I said more there than I could have expressed in text. Listen if you're interested in a deeper dive into these matters.

As for this thread, ngl I am very tired. Going to enjoy my Friday night and I'll get back to srs posting in here soon (tm). Probably tomorrow.


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## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

That weak ass podcast.


----------



## Aphrodite (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> Maybe Fang has changed tho idk



He actually has. Its thrown everyone out the loop into shock therapy.


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## Juub (Jan 25, 2019)

Aphrodite said:


> He actually has. Its thrown everyone out the loop into shock therapy.


Still convinced this Fang is fake and the real one is locked up and bound in a basement.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 25, 2019)

Juub said:


> Still convinced this Fang is fake and the real one is locked up and bound in a basement.



I like the new one.


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> If you read between the lines, I called her much worse things than I called fang, but sure,


nah i know, it's just i'd have used those words (strong minded and aggressive) to describe how current fang would approach being on the staff now, so i was tryna understand why kitsune at the time you sponsored her was 'good' and fang is 'bad', but from the sound of things the fang you knew may differ in some ways from the fang i'm familiar with so w/e


----------



## Lurko (Jan 25, 2019)

Grey Wolf said:


> That weak ass podcast.


Listened to a little, I'm fucking in shock lmao.


----------



## Lord Tentei (Jan 25, 2019)

Former OBD Lurker. said:


> Listened to a little, I'm fucking in shock lmao.


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## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> nah i know, it's just i'd have used those words (strong minded and aggressive) to describe how current fang would approach being on the staff now, so i was tryna understand why kitsune at the time you sponsored her was 'good' and fang is 'bad', but from the sound of things the fang you knew may differ in some ways from the fang i'm familiar with so w/e



He's basing it off how I used to be years ago, especially from the "prime OBD" when I used to shit talk a lot to the Staff due to the combined influence of being a hardcore Blenderite and influence of people like Uncanny, Freija, Reckless, Vegeta, and then cross-section problems the OBD itself had. So yeah I used to flame and get into fights a lot years ago but since like 2014 I've chilled out a lot. That's the old Fang he used to know.


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## Blue (Jan 25, 2019)

>suddenly my account is logged out

Someone's mad, heh


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## Kitsune (Jan 25, 2019)

Blue said:


> >suddenly my account is logged out
> 
> Someone's mad, heh



There was an update. Happened to everyone FYI.


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> He's basing it off how I used to be years ago, especially from the "prime OBD" when I used to shit talk a lot to the Staff due to the combined influence of being a hardcore Blenderite and influence of people like Uncanny, Freija, Reckless, Vegeta, and then cross-section problems the OBD itself had. So yeah I used to flame and get into fights a lot years ago but since like 2014 I've chilled out a lot. That's the old Fang he used to know.



Now you're just some Fangy that he used to know.


----------



## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Kitsune said:


> There was an update. Happened to everyone FYI.



I wasn't logged out. On phone or PC. FYI.


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## Fang (Jan 25, 2019)

So much to ponder on now after listening to Kitsune's interview on Wad's podcast.


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> Nah I was a massive dickhead in the old days, tbqh.



I think many of us can concede to this, especially myself.

It’s pretty rare for “risky picks” like myself most recently, Kitsune then, and even Zaru back in his hayday to be added into staff; and between recent moderator appointments (for better and for worse) and the advisor project (as much of a mess this was) overall I see a positive trajectory which is moving forward getting many of these “risky” personalities into the HO and active in staff discussions.

Looking at it objectively, I can’t deny the potential conflict that lies in Kitsune and Ane likely having faced negative relations in the past with users such as yourself and Gin but... On the other hand it’s also kind of on you the individual to improve negative impressions that you may have initially impressed on someone else.

The impression that people have of us on the individual level is all based on the decisions and actions _we _as another individual make.

It may not be fair, but that’s sort of how the world naturally operates imo. If you’re applying to a job and the guy interviewing you happens to be someone you bullied in highschool and you stole his girlfriend, you MIGHT hope he doesn’t recognize you but it he does you’re at this point praying for his mercy.

And to clarify, this isn’t a defense of Kitsune or anything that she’s said about you guys, I’m just giving my perspective of it all and how I see it all play out on a macro-scale.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

Oh you'll learn Santi. After a few months everyone gets bored of new projects and the old stagnant status quo returns in full force.


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Oh you'll learn Santi. After a few months everyone gets bored of new projects and the old stagnant status quo returns in full force.



Fall 9 times, stand up 10.


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## Ashi (Jan 25, 2019)

Fang said:


> Nah I was a massive dickhead in the old days, tbqh.



I hear that a lot but idk these days you seem like a chill and alright guy to me

For the most part at least


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> Fall 9 times, stand up 10.



Everyone goes in all hopeful this time will be different. But at the end of the day no one is getting paid for this shit and there just isn't any impetus to resolve the long standing problems and stick to it. There's simply other things people would rather be doing with their time than killing their sanity on and endless loop. There is nothing wrong with that. You shouldn't kill your sanity over this place. But you should prepare yourself for the inevitability of human nature as you yourself are already seeing the signs peeking through.


----------



## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Supreme King of The Alley - Lord Ashi said:


> I hear that a lot but idk these days you seem like a chill and alright guy to me
> 
> For the most part at least



I am 100% positive 2012 Santi would have gang negged you, flamed you, and called you a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".),


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## Chloe (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I am 100% positive 2012 Santi would have gang negged you, flamed you, called you a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".),


i mean, you probably did


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## Ashi (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> I am 100% positive 2012 Santi would have gang negged you, flamed you, and called you a ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".),


So like the rest of the BBD?


----------



## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Chloe said:


> i mean, you probably did



Exactly.

If you’re posting in the BBD with a username like TensaxZangetsu, you were probably a shitter.


----------



## JoJo (Jan 25, 2019)

also re: risky picks 

staff say x or y is risky 

it would be good, if they had any plans for a potential risky pick and value the input of people who know them personally than others. or even get to know them better since staff are very personal with each other. 

for instance, with myself, even though i had 0 chance to ever be staff'd, if they asked me questions about things they're worried about with me, i could probably bury any of their reservations and misplaced thoughts about who i am 

but yeah this will (probably) never happen


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## Chloe (Jan 25, 2019)

Supreme King of The Alley - Lord Ashi said:


> So like the rest of the BBD?




we love you tho


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

Funny story I did get asked a bunch of questions before they let me in


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> Looking at it objectively, I can’t deny the potential conflict that lies in Kitsune and Ane likely having faced negative relations in the past with users such as yourself and Gin but... On the other hand it’s also kind of on you the individual to improve negative impressions that you may have initially impressed on someone else.
> 
> 
> The impression that people have of us on the individual level is all based on the decisions and actions _we _as another individual make.
> ...


not gonna deny i've been a dick in the past, and done some things i objectively shouldn't have

but i stand by the fact that my disdain for ane was (very) justified

i wouldn't go about expressing it as i did then now (flaming and negging as opposed to calmly voicing my complaints), but i stand by my opinion that she's completely starved of integrity and contributes nothing of merit to the staff or nf in general, and from what i've observed both generally and based on the current leaks, kitsune falls into the same boat

you're trying to apply logic to people who believe they're above logic

and kitsune and i haven't even interacted prior to this thread, so i can only assume her negative opinion of me is explicitly formed from me being disliked by other staff in her faction (eg. ane) and liked by staff (or rather ex-staff now) who are directly opposed to her (eg. nighty, trin)

i know you're trying to help santi-kun, but this isn't about making a good impression

i could be a model of nonconfrontation for the next 5 years and i'm convinced both kitsune and ane would naysay me and refuse to budge on it

i shouldn't have to prove myself to people who exhibit such obvious personal bias, and obviously unprofessional behavior in general, nobody should


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## Gin (Jan 25, 2019)

Supreme King of The Alley - Lord Ashi said:


> So like the rest of the BBD?


psure i never negged you


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## Ashi (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> psure i never negged you


True you even repped me some

Some of you guys were nice, but I was a p easy target back then for reasons Im sure Renkugi punch can relate to


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## Krory (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> ...and the advisor project (as much of a mess this was) overall I see a positive trajectory which is moving forward getting many of these “risky” personalities into the HO and active in staff discussions.



I think that's interesting, considering that the two best of those potentially "risky" personalities were essentially shit on and one basically denied outright, despite the good they can and have done. Can you explain or expand on how you think it's a positive trajectory? Especially considering the only two candidates that more than a handful of people could agree on supposedly were the ones with zero risk.


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> not gonna deny i've been a dick in the past, and done some things i objectively shouldn't have
> 
> but i stand by the fact that my disdain for ane was (very) justified
> 
> ...



I get what you mean. I can list a handful of shit I acted up on that in retrospect I would have handled differently but I still believe I was objectively wronged in; and to be honest reading the things about ane regarding the art contests and the UFC/OLC back in the day this is the type of shit I still look at and tell staff “look, people are mad and none of us have anything to do with what happened but as an institution we fucked up: here, here, and here and people still have some feelings about it”

Another prominent example of this is OBD drama and the whole operation titanic ordeal; where staff objectively conspired to hard delete the section and to set up users to get bans.

I feel that the anger regarding this incident is of course justified along with the large anti-staff sentiment and distrust that is held, and that it is upon us the staff to improve those relations and re-earn that trust, but at what point are lines drawn to accomodate them for a betrayel which has no numeric value placed on it? And that’s been in my experience the hardest thing to determine thus far.

You mention that you _could _be the model for five years and still have them biasly blackball you, but not only is this most obviously not the case for you there simply isn’t evidence to support this in my experience.

Do you know how many times I gave horrendous shit to @ane , @Kitsune , @Naruko , @dream @Kenneth and half a dozen other mods during their early careers? It’s a miracle none of them pushed very hard to deny me with all of the horrendous shit I’ve said to them. I’m certain all of them hated my guts at a point, I can _feel_ it in the usernotes they left behind.

Yet they didn’t, because they saw precisely that for a full 5 years (that’s 2013, right around where you and I first met) the behaviors they saw then were virtually nowhere to be found aside from a warning (funnily enough, a month before within the very section that I was modded for).

Kitsune definitely shouldn’t have said the things she said, it was unprofessional and reading it comes off cuntish, but I _don’t _think she’s making decisions off emotional bias and she’s being genuine regarding what she believes is best for staff.

I had very little to do with the Advisor project, and many in the staff didn’t either and weren’t around much due to the timing, but it kept moving on regardless and those who were around for it ended up running the show (namely ane). My official criticism now that I’ve had the opportunity to see it all is that their selection standards became too close to the standards placed for moderators, when the whole damn point of the Advisor project were to get the _voices _and representation that we wouldn’t normally see fit for modship *into *the HO, and they missed that mark by the whole 9 yards.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Santí (Jan 25, 2019)

Krory said:


> I think that's interesting, considering that the two best of those potentially "risky" personalities were essentially shit on and one basically denied outright, despite the good they can and have done. Can you explain or expand on how you think it's a positive trajectory? Especially considering the only two candidates that more than a handful of people could agree on supposedly were the ones with zero risk.



Refer to like, the last two paragraphs of my previous post methinks. I think that serves enough as an answer maybe.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 25, 2019)

Santi said:


> Another prominent example of this is OBD drama and the whole operation titanic ordeal; where staff objectively conspired to hard delete the section and to set up users to get bans.



2 years later enough of the staff was still in the _worried that anyone modded from the OBD would be a leaking renegade that would be a puppet for the regulars to have free rain _mode. So much so that my mod thread lasted I forget how many months despite no one being able to present a better alternative. And let's not pretend like I opened any doors when everyone finally conceded. Aside from me Nighty was the only other "risky" person from the section allowed in HR and we know how that went. Meanwhile current affairs between the OBD and staff are in the trash again and people wanted to delete the section, again. 

Where is the big change here Santi? Enlighten me.


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> 2 years later enough of the staff was still in the _worried that anyone modded from the OBD would be a leaking renegade that would be a puppet for the regulars to have free rain _mode. So much so that my mod thread lasted I forget how many months despite no one being able to present a better alternative. And let's not pretend like I opened any doors when everyone finally conceded. Aside from me Nighty was the only other "risky" person from the section allowed in HR and we know how that went. Meanwhile current affairs between the OBD and staff are in the trash again and people wanted to delete the section, again.
> 
> Where is the big change here Santi? Enlighten me.



There’s been no serious discussion about deleting the OBD as long as I’ve been staff. Hell no. I don’t even entertain the idea.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

It was before you came in. There was a big thread on what to do with the OBD and several people said just delete it. I know because I saw it.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> There’s been no serious discussion about deleting the OBD as long as I’ve been staff.



Agreed.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> It was before you came in. There was a big thread on what to do with the OBD and several people said just delete it. I know because I saw it.



They werent serious.. or maybe this was before my time.


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## Gin (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> Kitsune definitely shouldn’t have said the things she said, it was unprofessional and reading it comes off cuntish, but I _don’t _think she’s making decisions off emotional bias and she’s being genuine regarding what she believes is best for staff.


i still haven't really received a good account of what /she/ does that's "best for the staff"

acting on your own opinion and either manipulating, bullying, or filibustering others to go along with it is not what a "good" staff member does

i could really use a visit from the real santi and not damage control santi right about now

and i'm aware that i haven't been a model of good behavior for the past 5 years, but what i have been is extremely contributive, on top of demonstrating several skills which are apparently something the staff want

what's changed with me behavior wise is that i don't go out of my way to be antagonistic, any "bad behavior" on my part is in response to injustice or people generally being assholes

and even with that i try to keep it in check, but the level of corruption in the higher levels of the staff is too disgusting for me to simply ignore, too egregious for me to not get genuinely heated about

it legitimately frustrates me that you try to defend kitsune's behavior when it's there in black and white that she's a bully, she's emotionally manipulative, and she doesn't take genuine responsibility for her missteps

she does not want what's best for nf, she wants what's best for _her vision_ of the staff, and _her vision_ of the staff is exactly what the staff currently are, because introduce enough """dangerous""" elements to the equation and people like her are going to find themselves having to actually answer for their actions, instead of everyone turning a blind eye due to apathy or arrangements of mutual benefit


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Aphrodite said:


> They werent serious. Not that i saw.



Bullshit. It was plenty of the same people that wanted to do it last time.


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> It was before you came in. There was a big thread on what to do with the OBD and several people said just delete it. I know because I saw it.



Oh, I already brought that up didn’t I? You know the staff only _had _that discussion in the first place was because members on this board started pushing it in a Q&A asking about the future of the OBD, and (2013) me started it lmao.

It was Spy_Smasher who eventually brought it to HR, I wish I could find that OG Q&A thread


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Bullshit. It was plenty of the same people that wanted to do it last time.



I think i remember Xiammes bringing it up as a joke, but i think this whole obd thing happened before i came back so i cant really say one way or the other. I usually didnt read back on past stuff.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> Oh, I already brought that up didn’t I? You know the staff only _had _that discussion in the first place was because members on this board started pushing it in a Q&A asking about the future of the OBD, and (2013) me started it lmao.
> 
> It was Spy_Smasher who eventually brought it to HR, I wish I could find that OG Q&A thread



Oh 2013 so yeah it happened when i left nf.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Sorry @Ultimate Deathsaurer it was before my time.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> Oh, I already brought that up didn’t I? You know the staff only _had _that discussion in the first place was because members on this board started pushing it in a Q&A asking about the future of the OBD, and (2013) me started it lmao.
> 
> It was Spy_Smasher who eventually brought it to HR, I wish I could find that OG Q&A thread



No Santi... Last year. Right before the fiasco train started.



Aphrodite said:


> I think i remember Xiammes bringing it up as a joke, but i think this whole obd thing happened before i came back so i cant really say one way or the other. I usually didnt read back on past stuff.



No Steph it was literally the very same people that were pushing the idea in 2012.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> No Santi... Last year. Right before the fiasco train started.
> 
> 
> 
> No Steph it was literally the very same people that were pushing the idea in 2012.



Yeah its my bad ... i forgot a huge thing happened with the obd before i came back. Im sorry.


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## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)

Taking my nose out of ya'lls business.


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

Gin the Nighty said:


> i still haven't really received a good account of what /she/ does that's "best for the staff"
> 
> acting on your own opinion and either manipulating, bullying, or filibustering others to go along with it is not what a "good" staff member does
> 
> ...



If you think I’m defending her, or in any way agree with whatever her view is, you’re wrong. What I don’t think is that she’s being dishonest or otherwise malicious. I think she’s misguided.


----------



## Aphrodite (Jan 26, 2019)




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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> No Santi... Last year. Right before the fiasco train started.





I legit don’t recall. I’ve been on since late June, and you know about the whole archive business.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> I legit don’t recall. I’ve been on since late June.



It probably got archived. Get someone to dig Marc's OBD thread out and be amazed that yes, in 2018 people still wanted to see it deleted.


----------



## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

As a matter of fact... The whole fiasco train started _immediately _after I joined.


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## Krory (Jan 26, 2019)

Santi said:


> Refer to like, the last two paragraphs of my previous post methinks. I think that serves enough as an answer maybe.



It kind of answers what _you_ think should be, but not necessarily the standard of the staff as a whole or that a different standard will be held going forth -- especially considering some think the problem is more we found out how shit went down, and not how the shit went down to begin with.

But thanks regardless.


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## Rinoa (Jan 26, 2019)

How old was the thread? Because HR had threads from before even i got modded.
I don't remember any real discussion about to delete OBD to exist in the last times.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

I don't remember the exact date lol all I know is it was from last year when Marc was asking if the OBD was another Blender.


----------



## JoJo (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I don't remember the exact date lol all I know is it was from last year when Marc was asking if the OBD was another Blender.


----------



## Esdese (Jan 26, 2019)

@The Immortal WatchDog can u believe the BS they are peddling 

full damage control mode


----------



## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

Krory said:


> It kind of answers what _you_ think should be, but not necessarily the standard of the staff as a whole or that a different standard will be held going forth -- especially considering some think the problem is more we found out how shit went down, and not how the shit went down to begin with.
> 
> But thanks regardless.



Well... That’s to be determined, honestly. I’ve made my case, but ultimately it’s at the discretion of whoever’s available at the moment.


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## Rinoa (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I don't remember the exact date lol all I know is it was from last year when Marc was asking if the OBD was another Blender.


Last year there was no discussion to delete OBD as far as i know.

I saw an intention to repair the 2012 fiasco from Xiammes part among others, that i hear about so much.

There may always be a mod that asks about a section, the HoU has been questioned many times in the past due to the pairings wars.  This is totally different from a thread with the intention of ending a section.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Rinoa come on... The only reason I went back into HR last year was to try to resolve the ongoing OBD drama and there was an active thread about it. It's really depressing you're trying to sell me this. I thought better of you than that.


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## Krory (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Rinoa come on... The only reason I went back into HR last year was to try to resolve the ongoing OBD drama and there was an active thread about it. It's really depressing you're trying to sell me this. I thought better of you than that.



This thread has taught me a lot about people and what they're willing to try and cover up. And all for what...?


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## Rinoa (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Rinoa come on... The only reason I went back into HR last year was to try to resolve the ongoing OBD drama and there was an active thread about it. It's really depressing you're trying to sell me this. I thought better of you than that.


UD i never been into OBD subjects that much, and i always look for the section mods about exactly because of that and again they can state it.
But the fact that they called you, came from the desire to solve the problem, not end the section like apparently happened on 2012.
Xiammes among others genuinely wanted to improve relations with OBD, you know that.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Sigh... No one asked me to I volunteered because I realized it was heading to a bad place and I instantly started questioning my decision when I started reading the thread to catch up. I really don't like it when people who weren't involved try to tell me what happened.


----------



## Rinoa (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Sigh... No one asked me to I volunteered because I realized it was heading to a bad place and I instantly started questioning my decision when I started reading the thread to catch up. I really don't like it when people who weren't involved try to tell me what happened.


I remember you came to staff 2 times after leaving, i thought Xiammes or Nighty would have talked to you because Xiammes had enough admiration and hope in you, so if i am in mistake here, i apologize.


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## Esdese (Jan 26, 2019)

I demand u free Es 
he did nothing wrong 
these blatant staff attacks on him are so dumb


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Check around Jun 30, 2018 no later than July 10th


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## Esdese (Jan 26, 2019)

Wow disgusting. You guys truly are sjw femanazis


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

!sampepe


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## Lurko (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> I don't remember the exact date lol all I know is it was from last year when Marc was asking if the OBD was another Blender.


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## Rinoa (Jan 26, 2019)

Ultimate Deathsaurer said:


> Check around Jun 30, 2018 no later than July 10th


Oh ok i found it, was about something that brought tensions in several sections when presented the global rules, how to mod, but not to end a section.


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## Natty (Jan 26, 2019)

Let me prefix that Trin has been telling me a lot of behind the scenes relating to this in general terms for emotional support from her girlfriend (we've been together since late September). I've got some of these events clarified through her.. And corrected like a dozen times for accuracy just now. I'm also going to be airing my biases out, cause I admittedly love Trin and care for her deeply, and because of this I dislike certain staff I think much more than many others. With this in mind, I'll keep my snark and anger to a minimum.

This'll be the first time many people hear about this, as well as the first time I've ever opened my mouth about it. If you call this leaking, it's most equivalent to calling what Kits said to Krory as leaking. I'll outline the events of what happened and I'll explain why I think Kits should step down and why staff should completely rethink or reform how they address staff issues/problems.

_1. HR has a vent thread for staff to vent about irl stuff. Be it about suicide, home life, or whatever, it's a vent thread. Trin posts in there regularly about her struggles with suicidal ideation/mental health and deletes the posts cause she's embarrassed about them or feels bad about them. Trin has also mentioned these issues in other posts in HO.

2. (Summer) Kits has several toxic spats/disagreements/arguments with Trin over miscellaneous “mod stuff” in areas of HR/HO.

3. Toxic enough that one of these disagreements leads to a two hour voice call with Reznor trying to convince Kits to apologize to Trin about her comments towards Trin. Kits agrees to apologize.. but doesn't.

4. (Sept/Oct) Preet posts around in HR/HO, his posts range from fairly apathetic to joke comments about the whole thing. Trin tell him to take it seriously. Preet retorts “Atleast it’s better than the shit you pulled”. Kits reps him for this.

5. Trin realizes her irl mental health issues are starting to get the best of her. Because of that and the comment from Preet, she makes a thread on whether or not she should be de-admined because of her anxieties about being a good staff member. She wants others to chime in if she should take a break from the responsibilities.

6. Kits posts, she tells Trin that she talks too much about suicide overall in HO and the vent thread. She says that these places aren't the place to ‘discuss’ it. Then immediately talks about Trin's mental illness, and calls her suicidal ideation in the vent thread as annoying and as a tool to manipulate others. That this is why Trin should not be admin.

7. Trin is understandably outraged and this starts the rift in staff. With people trying to defend Trin and those who want to defend Kits. You can look at this Q&C thread and the previous as to who is on who's side.

8. Kits and Trin gets in an argument about Kits' comments. Preet's predictably on Kits' side. Trin says to delete her account out of embarrassment. Later on before the deletion takes place, she says that she’s going to transfer her posts to a dupe and demote herself. That way staff has a record of her posts if need be. This is what's referred to as "the mexican stand off".

9. Preet tired of this argument with Kits/Trin, Preet offers to delete both of their accounts. Trin replies “ srsly delete me”. Preet complies, misinterpreting the tone of Trin’s post. He doesn’t delete Kits’ account. He too, asks for his account to be deleted, but that request is denied.

10. (Jan) Kits still hasn’t apologized. She talks to Trin in private, Kits sends a meme to Trin “Suicide is not the answer. You gotta outlive your enemies.” Kits said that she hope it didn’t make Trin mad. Then uploads a comic to lighten the mood. Trin would rather her not bring up the topic, forget about it and ignore it ever happened, or obviously, apologize.

11. This hullabaloo happens.

12. Kits messages Trin the day the hullabaloo happens. She finally apologizes after an angry outburst to Trin. Trin confesses to Kits about leaking to fadi afterwards._

I'm keeping some details out as they don't necessarily pertain to the issue at hand (stuff relating to WW's colourful language and the disagreements). Not excusing the first cause that is part of the issue too. The second.. I honestly don't know what the disagreements are about, nor does it matter.

I feel like this and what's already put out there, illustrates why Kits should step down and why Staff should seriously reconsider their position on how they handle issues like this and others. Completely uncaring people trashing their own is completely abhorrent behaviour and it isn't even isolated within their own group. Kits has used a similar argument against Gin and he won't be the last.

Staff has acknowledged some of her behaviour even prior to this as being problematic. It’s clearly a constant problem with Kits and staff and will continue if things aren’t addressed. As of now, they’re being addressed as “Yeah, we do that. Ok”. No! It’s not ok. Not within your own club, not within the rules of the forum, and it’s not acceptable behaviour regarding treatment of other members.

Side note: Trin apologizes about her behaviour with some of it and feels genuinely bad. She just doesn’t want this sort of treatment to happen to others.

Reactions: Like 1


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## JoJo (Jan 26, 2019)

That kind of behavior is absolutely unacceptable. How in the fuck did people even take Kitsune’s side over that?


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## Krory (Jan 26, 2019)

Natty said:


> _10. (Jan) Kits still hasn’t apologized. She talks to Trin in private, Kits sends a meme to Trin “Suicide is not the answer. You gotta outlive your enemies.” Kits said that she hope it didn’t make Trin mad. Then uploads a comic to lighten the mood. Trin would rather her not bring up the topic, forget about it and ignore it ever happened, or obviously, apologize._



Suicide jokes to someone you know struggles with suicide and that you previously not only mocked them for it, but then go on to accuse them of faking it?

And then, to top it all off, the apology only comes when Kits gets in trouble for... surprise surprise... her behavior and mocking amd harassing people with mental illness.

This is really disgusting. I don't expect any staff to do anything, because they already made their choice of "She did nothing wrong" or "Everything she does is for the good of the forum", but wow... Just... completely and utterly inhumane and gross.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Natty said:


> He too, asks for his account to be deleted, but that request is denied.



Slightly disappointed this never happened. Would have made the show more entertaining.


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## Krory (Jan 26, 2019)

And now we wait for the staff to wash it away with more excused and derailing about the OBD.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Jan 26, 2019)

Nah that's over Rinoa found the thread. Unless someone would like to come in here and deny the contents for some reason?


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)




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## Kitsune (Jan 26, 2019)

All I can say to what Natty posted is that there’s more to the story. She is giving a heavily one-sided view of events. I’m not going to share my experience because it was all done in private. I’ve already expressed my own personal regret to Trin for our falling out and she has apologized to me as well.


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## Santí (Jan 26, 2019)

This is ridiculous.


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## Kitsune (Jan 26, 2019)

Natty said:


> we've been together since late September



Wait...do you mean _together_ together?


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## Kitsune (Jan 26, 2019)

This is NF the telenovela.

Edit: Didn’t realize the thread was locked.


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## Demetrius (Jan 26, 2019)

*trin Today at 1:32 AM*
like was i in the wrong and the worst thing that happened in the thread was me flaming her and calling her an ass, saying she doesn't deserve to talk to me on discord, and negging her with fuck you

cos yea if you put that out of context without kitsunes replies im the ass

but here's the truth

we were both asses​
i want to preface by saying that i did all that. and in her perspective, that's likely the whole story, including white wolf viciously attacking her (which i didnt approve of and i told him to apologize to her and be above that after he got hr access back).

i also want to say those aggressive remarks weren't out of the blue--to me, in my perspective, she came into the thread throwing the most personal jabs one could think of to put me in my place, telling me i need a therapist, and demeaning my very being at the time.



we HAVE made up and i don't want people rioting over this. i actually wanted this more to be about her finally understanding the underlying behavior being unacceptable, and demeaning, to the mentally ill community. not to "bring her down"; not to get petty revenge. that means nothing. true change comes from understanding both perspectives. this is why HR and the members cannot have any way to compromise: as regular members, they don't see the story as you do. they get glimpses just like natty's posts. and as moderators, they tend to forget what it's like to be outside here without information left in the dark with no response.

what ppl should be striving for isn't a demotion (bc it ain't gonna happen and i wont lie, back in october i did want her demoted until i realized that wouldnt solve how she was her behavior vs how i saw it during that horrible stressful spat), it should be telling kitsune and other mods that "yo, this is how it feels. this is how i relate to that. and that kinda bums me out and it's not cool"


i regret that neg which was written in the heat of the moment, i should've simply said "not cool at all". i should've called her inconsiderate instead of an ass, because all my aggression did was escalate her attempts to demean me (whether unintentional or not)

ps: yes, together together


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