# Mas Oyama vs Mike tyson



## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

the karateka 10th dan....founder of the kyokushin kai karate...
vs the former heavyweight box champion...

(oyama killed a bull withouth any weapon....)


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

I've seen the bull killing videos...and to be honest I'm pretty sure the bull was poisoned or something before hand...

any one who's ever  been on a ranch and seen a bull up close...I mean fuck..their huge and dense....i mean jesus I doubt even Ivan Drago from rocky two with his shot gun punches could do what mas..did...it just seems really suspect


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

ok....even withouth the killing bull feat....he was a 10th dan, the highest rank possible in martial arts. a good fight, I guess.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> ok....even withouth the killing bull feat....he was a 10th dan, the highest rank possible in martial arts. a good fight, I guess.



he was pretty huge for an asian dude and looked pretty cut...he did have actual practical fighting experience? casuse that tends to matter a shit load more then any belt or rank

20degree mcdojo blackbelt vs fedor emelianenko for example

I mean he needs to not get hit by tyson..at all but I'd say he does better then lee or actually wins (i really wish i knew more about this guy beyond wikipedia)


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

a 10th dan MUST have fighting experience. the 10th dan is usually founder of said martial arts, and someone who has reached the limit in that m.a...they usually are peak humans in more than one thing, and they are above average humans overall. BUT western fighters can be peak humans too (tyson is at peak human level in terms of striking force, for example)


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

peak humans...oh lord

okay first your wanking...second your making western fighting styles out to be inferior this is a pop culture myth


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

you don't understand what I'm talking about, do you? I don't know who would win this, yes, I think western fight is leagues under eastern fight style, but I don't know if the fighters are...it could go either way, they are both humans, I'm comparing people in the same range, the best in their own fighting style. And yes, peak human is supposed to be human.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

mike tyson dies to a rolling thunder


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 19, 2010)

That Bull vid is super suspect. It looked like the Bull wasn't even trying to fight.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

The Chakra Fro said:


> That Bull vid is super suspect. It looked like the Bull wasn't even trying to fight.



seeing as unless it was a wild bull they have an inherited genetic fear of humans..that thing naturally would be thrashing..bucking panicking..and doing everything in its power to get away from him

and if that fails cue a thousand or so pounds flying in your face..

seriously theres no middle ground either your bullying a defenseless frightened animal..or you just scared it into hulking out at which point..unless your a comic book character...gtfo and run for your life

while i'm sure this guys allot more qualified then Lee is to fight tyson..those vids always had me as...a little weirded


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I've seen the bull killing videos...and to be honest I'm pretty sure the bull was poisoned or something before hand...
> 
> any one who's ever  been on a ranch and seen a bull up close...I mean fuck..their huge and dense....i mean jesus I doubt even Ivan Drago from rocky two with his shot gun punches could do what mas..did...it just seems really suspect



Dolph Lundgren is also a Kyokushin fighter 

Link removed


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> Dolph Lundgren is also a Kyokushin fighter
> 
> Link removed



yeah i knew he did something in his spare time didn't know it was this

although two things 1, whats that got to do with the fight? other then that thanks what he had training in is a question thats been nagging me since I saw the expendables

2, dolph is a man mammoth I'm not sure applicable his "feats' are to mas


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

never heard of this guy. how is he ranked?


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## Uncle Phantom (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> seeing as unless it was a wild bull they have an inherited genetic fear of humans..that thing naturally would be thrashing..bucking panicking..and doing everything in its power to get away from him
> 
> and if that fails cue a thousand or so pounds flying in your face..
> 
> ...



Not to mention the bull had a restraint halter and nose ring on. I highly doubt he could pull that shit on a untamed, unrestrained Spanish Combat Bull.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> yeah i knew he did something in his spare time didn't know it was this
> 
> although two things 1, whats that got to do with the fight? other then that thanks what he had training in is a question thats been nagging me since I saw the expendables
> 
> 2, dolph is a man mammoth I'm not sure applicable his "feats' are to mas




lol i just wanted to put that out their since you say something about ivan drago. back on topic the one thing that mike has to worry about are his legs. kyokushin fighters have very hard kicks that can destroy the base of a boxer take that away from tyson he has nothing. on the other hand kyokushin fighters don't really keep their hands up to block their face. so it's a 50/50 fight. but i am going with Oyama on this one


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

The Chakra Fro said:


> Not to mention the bull had a restraint halter and nose ring on. I highly doubt he could pull that shit on a untamed, unrestrained Spanish Combat Bull.



I don't think he could of done it to that bull

I mean the  last time i looked up the clips he chops them in the skull..that seems..to be a bad idea i mean your hitting a heavy animal in the most reinforced part of its body? and then it just drops


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> never heard of this guy. how is he ranked?



you never heard of who


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> you never heard of who



if he says dolph then the poor guy missed some of the best of the nineteen eighties and early nineties...and their totally awesome macho movies

he needs a pop culture education


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> if he says dolph then the poor guy missed some of the best of the nineteen eighties and early nineties...and their totally awesome macho movies
> 
> he needs a pop culture education



wow!!!! i can't believe he doesn't know who he is


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

of course I don't know!


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> of course I don't know!



dude come on, he's the big russian from rocky 3 he was also he man in that crummy but hilarious movie and he was in the expendables

also..as you said earlier you believe eastern martial arts are superior to western...thus your looking at this with rose colored glasses

just look at the two guys their history etc etc


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> dude come on, he's the big russian from rocky 3 he was also he man in that crummy but hilarious movie and he was in the expendables
> 
> also..as you said earlier you believe eastern martial arts are superior to western...thus your looking at this with rose colored glasses
> 
> just look at the two guys their history etc etc




i can't believe he doesn't know who dolph is


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

> dude come on, he's the big russian from rocky 3



erm....I didn't remember his name....and his face...




> also..as you said earlier you believe eastern martial arts are superior to western...thus your looking at this with rose colored glasses



so tell me....why box is superior to shaolin kung fu/ninjutsu/karate/kenpo and all the others? eastern martial arts are more complete (aside of tae kwon do)


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> dude come on, he's the big russian from rocky 3 he was also he man in that crummy but hilarious movie and he was in the expendables
> 
> also..as you said earlier you believe eastern martial arts are superior to western...thus your looking at this with rose colored glasses
> 
> just look at the two guys their history etc etc



You mean Rocky 4. 3 was Clubber Lang (Mr. T).


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]KltbxRVP0gU[/YOUTUBE]

Andy Hug was a student of Kyokushin Karate, he fought and defeated kickboxers and Muay Thai fighters.

Mas Oyama invented Kyokushin Karate.


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## Genyosai (Sep 19, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]yg9SDQ1QxVM[/YOUTUBE]

Did Mike Tyson eat cold beans and cry? 

...

Wait. Let me start again... Did Mike Tyson live on top of a freezing cold mountain for 6 months and destroy his skeletal structure by smacking rocks and trees all day? 

No. No, he didn't. Mas Oyama stomps for having a more epic (read: hilarious) training montage.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> so tell me....why box is superior to shaolin kung fu/ninjutsu/karate/kenpo and all the others? eastern martial arts are more complete (aside of tae kwon do)



how are they more complete? the best martial arts are the simplest ones "your enemy...your fists..your enemies brains outside their skull..he go on floor and not get back up"

thats martial arts...in the truest sense..teaching you to kill maim or incapacitate an enemy while teaching you endurance...stamina and a willingness to take pain...

traditional eastern martial arts have little to do with efficiency and simplicity and expediency and more to do about complexity redundancy impressing a perceived belief of cultural superiority and impressing as much tradition as it does actual fighting prowess

in other words...i personally prefer shit that cuts out the red tape and just teaches how to get the job done...



basch71 said:


> You mean Rocky 4. 3 was Clubber Lang (Mr. T).



oh...damn that was a bad mistake i made there

that dude actually is a former fullbright with a chemistry degree dolphs a man of many talents

and proof that vikings aren't just gigantic and terrifying..but also evil geniuses


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 19, 2010)

> how are they more complete? the best martial arts are the simplest ones "your enemy...your fists..your enemies brains outside their skull..he go on floor and not get back up"



I mean, in box you can only punch. so you must stay in close range while fighting. In eastern martial arts, there's more fredom. that's all.


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> how are they more complete? the best martial arts are the simplest ones "your enemy...your fists..your enemies brains outside their skull..he go on floor and not get back up"
> 
> thats martial arts...in the truest sense..teaching you to kill maim or incapacitate an enemy while teaching you endurance...stamina and a willingness to take pain...
> 
> ...




Immortal Watchdog, you do realize that Kyokushin is a full contact style similar to boxing and Muay Thai.

Teaching endurance, stamina and willingness to endure pain?


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Genyosai said:


> [YOUTUBE]yg9SDQ1QxVM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> Did Mike Tyson eat cold beans and cry?
> 
> ...



mike get's chop in the head and dies on the spot



Ben Grimm said:


> Immortal Watchdog, you do realize that Kyokushin is a full contact style similar to boxing and Muay Thai.
> 
> Teaching endurance, stamina and willingness to endure pain?



the best training ever


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Immortal Watchdog, you do realize that Kyokushin is a full contact style similar to boxing and Muay Thai.
> 
> Teaching endurance, stamina and willingness to endure pain?


They can't strike the head unless it's a kick though, which doesn't make sense.


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> They can't strike the head unless it's a kick though, which doesn't make sense.



Karate style is designed to attack the body with your knuckles. In a real fight, you can break your hands punching someone in the head with your fist.

In the old days of Irish Bareknuckle boxing people used to break their hands.


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Karate style is designed to attack the body with your knuckles. In a real fight, you can break your hands punching someone in the head with your fist.
> 
> In the old days of Irish Bareknuckle boxing people used to break their hands.


Luckily, they invented these things called boxing gloves about a century ago.

A fist isn't the only way to strike, anyway.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Karate style is designed to attack the body with your knuckles. In a real fight, you can break your hands punching someone in the head with your fist.
> 
> In the old days of Irish Bareknuckle boxing people used to break their hands.



this is one thing that many kyokushin fighters have problems with in k-1 and in mma is that they are still in that mind state of having their hands down low


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Luckily, they invented these things called boxing gloves about a century ago.



To Havoc:But are you going to wear boxing gloves into the street.

To Heavenly King: Georges St. Pierre seems to use Kyokushin well enough


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> this is one thing that many kyokushin fighters have problems with in k-1 and in mma is that they are still in that mind state of having their hands down low


Yup, and that's not gonna be too good against one of the best boxers in history.


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> But are you going to wear boxing gloves into the street.


Are they in the street when they are fighting in competitions?


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Are they in the street when they are fighting in competitions?



No, but they don't want to pick up habits from the ring while they are on the street.


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## Genyosai (Sep 19, 2010)

Can Kyokushin practitioners use palm strikes and chops on the head/face/neck area?


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> To Havoc:But are you going to wear boxing gloves into the street.
> 
> To Heavenly King: Georges St. Pierre seems to use Kyokushin well enough




that's very true he does, Katsunori Kikuno is one guy that comes to mind with the hands down in mma bouts but then again his record is 13 - 3 - 2
[YOUTUBE]w2DLv0B0NxA[/YOUTUBE]


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Genyosai said:


> Can Kyokushin practitioners use palm strikes and chops on the head/face/neck area?



nope they can't do no such things in bouts


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

Mas Oyama also held a 4th dan in Judo.


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## The Immortal WatchDog (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Immortal Watchdog, you do realize that Kyokushin is a full contact style similar to boxing and Muay Thai.
> 
> Teaching endurance, stamina and willingness to endure pain?



it was about martial arts in general not specifically mas-sempais home made awesomeness


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> No, but they don't want to pick up habits from the ring while they are on the street.


Which is dumb, since there is more than one way to strike the head than just using your fist.  Also, a fist to the face > a kick to the face in the "street".

It also puts Mas at a disadvantage in this fight, imo.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Which is dumb, since there is more than one way to strike the head than just using your fist.  Also, a fist to the face > a kick to the face in the "street".
> 
> It also puts Mas at a disadvantage in this fight, imo.



it's not a kyokushin fight


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

yes, but he is still conditioned to battling people who do not strike the head with their fist. Mike Tyson excels at punching people in the head.

In less Oyama takes down Tyson, he will get knocked out.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> yes, but he is still conditioned to battling people who do not strike the head with their fist. Mike Tyson excels at punching people in the head.
> 
> In less Oyama takes down Tyson, he will get knocked out.




tyson would try one of his hay makers and have it blocked. oyama would counter with punch to tyson stomach that would k.o.. people kyokushin fighters aren't nothing to play with. kyokushin fighters have taken out muay thai fighters many times over 

[YOUTUBE]XT8D2MOBl5s[/YOUTUBE]


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> it's not a kyokushin fight


Oh really, thanks for letting me know, I thought Tyson had to learn kyokushin for this fight.


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Lolwut? Tyson's punches are compact and concise. His power isn't the greatest ever seen in boxing, but combined with his speed, accuracy and timing make for something devastating. Tyson Prime fired combinations, not single rounds. 

Kyokushin Karate is some hardcore shit that's definitely worthy of respect, but you're disrespecting Tyson and boxing as a whole with that moronic statement.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> tyson would try one of his hay makers and have it blocked. oyama would counter with punch to tyson stomach that would k.o.. people kyokushin fighters aren't nothing to play with. kyokushin fighters have taken out muay thai fighters many times over
> 
> [YOUTUBE]XT8D2MOBl5s[/YOUTUBE]



 Why would Tyson have to resort to a haymaker, and what makes you think that Oyama could hit a body blow on a boxer who has amazing defenses?


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## oMuerte (Sep 19, 2010)

It depends in this match for me. Kyokushin straight on is bad for a boxer of Tyson's caliber and build, I doubt the punches would have any effect where Tyson is vulnerable seeing as he has a good defense. However, if Oyama uses Judo he may have a chance, since he could easily get close throw him down and proceed to hit the face or strangle him on the floor.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Why would Tyson have to resort to a haymaker, and what makes you think that Oyama could hit a body blow on a boxer who has amazing defenses?



amazing defenses in fighting other boxers not karate real be differences. tyson is a wild animal he's not going to set up with jabs he's going to try to take oyama's head off. even if he was to work the jab oyama work his legs and break him down from their


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Way to ignore my post.

Also, lolno. Tyson was VERY systematic in his fighting. Cus d'Amato knocked that into him good. Call out any series of numbers and Tyson will not only remember them, but perform them in a combo that's fluid as a river and fast like a fucking machine gun. Only towards the end of his career did he start going for one-punch KO's. Early-to-prime Tyson rained down punches like nobodys business. Big punches don't work in boxing unless you set them up, so that's exactly what Tyson did, and did well. Put the fear of God into them with your hard fists in their lower sections, and then punch 'em in the head while they instinctively put down their hands.

Kyokushin fighters have no guard for their head, as they're not used to punches to the noggin.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> Way to ignore my post.
> 
> Also, lolno. Tyson was VERY systematic in his fighting. Cus d'Amato knocked that into him good. Call out any series of numbers and Tyson will not only remember them, but perform them in a combo that's fluid as a river and fast like a fucking machine gun. Only towards the end of his career did he start going for one-punch KO's. Early-to-prime Tyson rained down punches like nobodys business. Big punches don't work in boxing unless you set them up, so that's exactly what Tyson did, and did well. Put the fear of God into them with your hard fists in their lower sections, and then punch 'em in the head while they instinctively put down their hands.
> 
> Kyokushin fighters have no guard for their head, as they're not used to punches to the noggin.





really and you think oyama is going to set their and allow this to happen right.


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> tyson is a wild animal he's not going to set up with jabs he's going to try to take oyama's head off.


Have you actually seen Tyson fight?


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

It doesn't matter, Tyson's punching speed was fantastic. Tyson will let it rip, whether or not Oyama does anything. If he moves in to use Judo, he will open himself up for some hits. That is inevitable.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Have you actually seen Tyson fight?




have you?



Hangat?r said:


> It doesn't matter, Tyson's punching speed was fantastic. Tyson will let it rip, whether or not Oyama does anything. If he moves in to use Judo, he will open himself up for some hits. That is inevitable.



 you really think that oyama isn't going to see any of them punches coming and counter them right. tyson is a raging bull he's not a real smart fighter and that has been on of his weakness.


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> have you?


So that would be a, "no".


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> So that would be a, "no".




yea i seen his fights many times over. have you seen oyama fight before? i bet you haven't


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

No, I haven't, luckily I haven't made assumptions on what he can do.

You've seen Tyson fight, supposedly, and you still don't know what you're talking about...


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> have you?
> 
> 
> 
> you really think that oyama isn't going to see any of them punches coming and counter them right. tyson is a raging bull he's not a real smart fighter and that has been on of his weakness.



No, because Tyson doesn't telegraph his punches. That's one of the points in boxing, not being predictable. Peekaboo-stance + constant bobbing and weaving (up-down and side-to-side movement, as you appear to be a layman). I sincerely doubt Oyama has the speed to counter Tyson's punches.

Again, Tyson is not a raging bull. You're basing all of this on crazy Tyson, which was way past his prime. For the sake of this discussion, we have to use Tyson Prime. Tyson Prime is systematic in his fighting, very thoughtful approach to taking down his opponent. 

Tyson is a very timid, shy soul. He takes solace in constant repetition, it puts him in a mindset of a fighter. Due to this, his combat abilities are top notch. 

Please, if you're going to make points, at least have proof for them. Relevant proof. Just saying in advance, posting vids of later-day Tyson is not going to help your case.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> amazing defenses in fighting other boxers not karate real be differences. tyson is a wild animal he's not going to set up with jabs he's going to try to take oyama's head off. even if he was to work the jab oyama work his legs and break him down from their



I seriously doubt you've watched boxing or understand it if you think Tyson is just a mindless brute. Tyson is not a wild animal and he has amazing technique. As a junior he was a gold medalist at the Olympics. I think you're just stereotyping him because of his violent nature and the fact that he is a fighter who uses knock out power. While true he does not utilize a jab, that is merely preference, and the main reason why he does not use a jab is because of his reach disadvantage against other heavyweights.

By all means, post fights that Oyama took part in. Maybe I am missing something, but as far as I'm concerned in terms of striking you'd be hard pressed to find someone who can beat Tyson with Karate - even Kyoshuken.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

lol ok let you dudes tell it


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Tyson does not have a violent nature, as I just said. He is simply capable of enabling it. And he does jab, as a range-marker, but that's about it. He has knocked people out with his jab, though. Jabbing at a guard is a good way to get a rhythm going.


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## Havoc (Sep 19, 2010)

lol ok concession accepted


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

how many of you train in fighting just asking? i am not going to waste anymore of my time with this. i know that tyson couldn't win this fight if his life was on the line. oyama wouldn't over ran by jabs and punches.. but it's what ever lol


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

I train in martial arts, if that's what you're asking. I'm not sure why Oyama being run over from punches from one of the best punchers in the world is so unbelievable.


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Lolno. YJDK, you _think_ that he couldn't. Punches, elbows and knees are the three most lethal things in actual fights. Notice how kicks aren't a part of that. And how two of those are arm-related. The fact is that you underestimate Tyson immensely, and without actual grounds to base your arguements on, or your claims to the contrary on ours, means that your conceding is only a thing of formality.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Havoc said:


> No, I haven't, luckily I haven't made assumptions on what he can do.
> 
> You've seen Tyson fight, supposedly, and you still don't know what you're talking about...





Violent By Design said:


> I train in martial arts, if that's what you're asking. I'm not sure why Oyama being run over from punches from one of the best punchers in the world is so unbelievable.



over ran meaning being  over wham by punches


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## Dante Alighieri (Sep 19, 2010)

Does Tyson have any skill in grappling? Oyama was 4th dan in judo. Goju-ryu also has some grappling mixed in with it.

Btw, Kyokukishin/Goju/other derivatives do use high guard. People get knocked out with high kicks all the time. 

Also, Kyokukishin initially allowed punches to the head. They banned it because too many people were getting messed up from taking full-power bare-knuckle punches all the time.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

I know Tyson is a fan of mixed martial arts, so I'm sure he's tried grappling out. Though one would assume he's no where near the level of a black belt in Judo.


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

Eh, grappling would not be a wise option. Tyson specialized in very close-range fighting. If he had his forehead on the opponent's chest, it would be perfect for him. In order to grapple, Oyama would not only have to step into Tyson's range, doing exactly the opposite of what he should (keep the fuck away and wither him down with ranged attacks), he would leave himself open at atleast one side (because you can't exactly grab someone without opening up your guard). It also depends on what Tyson is wearing, if he has no shirt or whatever on it'll be more difficult to get a hold of him.

If Oyama knew some Greco-Roman Wrestling, then it might be different, as he'd be better at take-downs. Straight-up Judo isn't focussed on this aspect as much, as far as I'm aware.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> Lolno. YJDK, you _think_ that he couldn't. Punches, elbows and knees are the three most lethal things in actual fights. Notice how kicks aren't a part of that. And how two of those are arm-related. The fact is that you underestimate Tyson immensely, and without actual grounds to base your arguements on, or your claims to the contrary on ours, means that your conceding is only a thing of formality.



well kicks should be a part of that, i don't underestimate anything about tyson. a boxers weakness are his legs you take that out he has no base to lunch his punches. oyama would work his legs and tyson would be force to do something stupid like throw a hook or a wild punch.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangatýr said:


> Eh, grappling would not be a wise option. Tyson specialized in very close-range fighting. If he had his forehead on the opponent's chest, it would be perfect for him. In order to grapple, Oyama would not only have to step into Tyson's range, doing exactly the opposite of what he should (keep the fuck away and wither him down with ranged attacks), he would leave himself open at atleast one side (because you can't exactly grab someone without opening up your guard). It also depends on what Tyson is wearing, if he has no shirt or whatever on it'll be more difficult to get a hold of him.


 Striking with Tyson is not the wise option. If your opponent has no grappling experience and you have a ton, then it would be dumb not to grapple them. Knocking out someone before someone can grab you is extremely hard to do even for top tier athletes. 



> If Oyama knew some Greco-Roman Wrestling, then it might be different, as he'd be better at take-downs. Straight-up Judo isn't focussed on this aspect as much, as far as I'm aware.



Judo is heavily focused on taking people down (it is the most important aspect of Judo), and why would Greco-Roman be better in this scenario? Greco-Roman is even more limited and you would have to get even closer to Tyson's fist.


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## Dante Alighieri (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangatýr said:


> Eh, grappling would not be a wise option. Tyson specialized in very close-range fighting. If he had his forehead on the opponent's chest, it would be perfect for him. In order to grapple, Oyama would not only have to step into Tyson's range, doing exactly the opposite of what he should (keep the fuck away and wither him down with ranged attacks), he would leave himself open at atleast one side (because you can't exactly grab someone without opening up your guard). It also depends on what Tyson is wearing, if he has no shirt or whatever on it'll be more difficult to get a hold of him.



Yeah, if Oyama tries to shoot stupidly perhaps. I doubt he'd do that and I'd like to think he'd go about it more smartly. It is VERY hard for a pure striker not to get involved in the grapple with a good grappler or hybrid grappler. 
 We've seen grapplers take apart pure strikers time and time again on various MMA circuits. If Tyson doesn't know how to grapple, he's at an immediate disadvantage. 

Btw, a lot of Judo takedowns (Osoto-gari, ippon seoi nage, ouchi gari, etc) work just fine without the gi. So does most of the ground grappling. 



> If Oyama knew some Greco-Roman Wrestling, then it might be different, as he'd be better at take-downs. Straight-up Judo isn't focussed on this aspect as much, as far as I'm aware.


Uh, what? Half of Judo consists of takedowns. I don't know what you mean.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

counter with judo


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

No, kicks are fucking stupid in a fight. They leave you open, they take you off balance and make you an easy target for take-downs. Kicks should only be attempted on an opponent that is inhibited somehow.

That goes for everything. Legs are the foundation. That's why every martial artist, regardless of their focus, works on them. Strengthening, endurance, etc. As stated previously, Tyson has done at least some Muay Thai, with that comes basic understanding of blocking and being able to take kicks. Leg-kicks only take effect after layering them on, it's not one kick and BAM, no more legs. It's a war of attrition.

And given that this is KID MOTHERFUCKING DYNAMITE we're talking about, a hook is in no way a bad thing. Hell, that's one of his staple punches. Given his speed and the compact nature of his hooks, they're a force to be reckoned with, if anything. He's not gonna throw a looping punch, he's not that stupid. He made an entire career of getting inside and wrecking shit. That's not possible without taking some shots, being able to handle the pain, and pressing on.


As to the Judo comment, from my experience (did some Judo for two years, for what it's worth), the main Judo distance seems to be upclose, already engaged with your opponent before taking him down. What I meant with Greco-Roman Wrestling, was the ability to get in on someone and get them on the ground quickly while remaining outside of striking range beforehand. If I am wrong, do feel free to correct me, but I do not remember judo having an emphasis on moving inside swiftly to get the takedown, as much as feeling out the opponents balance and then striking while it shifts.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> No, kicks are fucking stupid in a fight. They leave you open, they take you off balance and make you an easy target for take-downs. Kicks should only be attempted on an opponent that is inhibited somehow.
> 
> That goes for everything. Legs are the foundation. That's why every martial artist, regardless of their focus, works on them. Strengthening, endurance, etc. As stated previously, Tyson has done at least some Muay Thai, with that comes basic understanding of blocking and being able to take kicks. Leg-kicks only take effect after layering them on, it's not one kick and BAM, no more legs. It's a war of attrition.
> 
> ...




now kicks are stupid lol!!!  leg kicks a perfect in mma , Katsunori Kikuno uses  Crescent Kick in mma and owned up many people i don't see how you think kicks are stupid. shit even cro cop was kick peoples heads off with high kicks so i don't know what you're talking about man. what??? lol!!!!  with out any base he's not going to throw a strong hook after having his legs kicked from oyama.


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## Aruarian (Sep 19, 2010)

MMA =/= street/free fight, which I assume is what we're talking here. Katsunori Kikuno has no wins by kicks either, so eh. And given that Cro Cops kicks are notable is somewhat of an exception that proves the rule.

And yes, as a standard kicks are a retarded idea to try for the reasons I've already stated. It's one of the reasons why TKD fails in fights. For Tyson not to have his legs working, Oyama would have to work at them for some time, as previously stated.

Please do something about your oral diarrhea.


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## Genyosai (Sep 19, 2010)

Kicks should be slightly better on the street than in the ring, because you're not hindered by the no groin kick rule.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 19, 2010)

Hangat?r said:


> MMA =/= street/free fight, which I assume is what we're talking here. Katsunori Kikuno has no wins by kicks either, so eh. And given that Cro Cops kicks are notable is somewhat of an exception that proves the rule.
> 
> And yes, as a standard kicks are a retarded idea to try for the reasons I've already stated. It's one of the reasons why TKD fails in fights. For Tyson not to have his legs working, Oyama would have to work at them for some time, as previously stated.
> 
> Please do something about your oral diarrhea.



tkd isn't good for the streets i don't know why you're even bring this up lol as for Katsunori Kikuno hasn't won many with the kick maybe once. but most of his tko's has been from the crescent Kick. everyone knows that cro cop is a one trick pony now days. tyson never been kicked before so it's not going to take long for him to feel the leg kicks 

[YOUTUBE]w2DLv0B0NxA[/YOUTUBE] Crescent Kick owns people up


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## Glued (Sep 19, 2010)

This documentary states that Mas Oyama defeated Judokas, Karateka, Savate kick boxers, Capoeira fighters, wrestlers and Muay Thai Kick boxers.

[YOUTUBE]MiRuj1u2jxM[/YOUTUBE]

To Heavenly King, please don't ever refer to someone like Mike Tyson as a wild animal. That man had more skill and grace than the majority of K-1 superstars.


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## oMuerte (Sep 20, 2010)

Hangatýr said:


> It doesn't matter, Tyson's punching speed was fantastic. Tyson will let it rip, whether or not Oyama does anything.* If he moves in to use Judo, he will open himself up for some hits. That is inevitable.*


 Hi. Sorry for the late response. But, have you seen the stance a Judoka would use to move in? If Tyson swings, that is bad that'll open himself up for a Yoko Gake, Yama Arashi, etc. A number moves he could do if Oyama is fast enough to react to Tyson's punches. Also assuming if he has the endurance to endure Tyson's punches while he struggles out of a hold.




Hangatýr said:


> as to the Judo comment, from my experience (did some Judo for two years, for what it's worth), the main Judo distance seems to be upclose, already engaged with your opponent before taking him down. What I meant with Greco-Roman Wrestling, was the ability to get in on someone and get them on the ground quickly while remaining outside of striking range beforehand. If I am wrong, do feel free to correct me, but I do not remember judo having an emphasis on moving inside swiftly to get the takedown, as much as feeling out the opponents balance and then striking while it shifts.



You've been it for two years, it's understandable that you'd think it would be already engaged. But, no. It does specialize in take downs, but that would consist him going to ground moves from there. Judo can be used if a punch is throw, kick is thrown, if your opponent uses wrestling or jujitsu. Basically, it's perfect for close quarters if you know how to block and parry. I can show you videos if you like. It'll take my awhile, a lot to choose and a lot to filter.



Hangatýr said:


> *No, kicks are fucking stupid in a fight. They leave you open,* they take you off balance and make you an easy target for take-downs. Kicks should only be attempted on an opponent that is inhibited somehow.


 Wrong, there are some kicks in Karate that can leave you protected if use it. I'll give you an example. [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HUQtC_UXx40[/YOUTUBE] Notice the knee, if your opponent tries to punch, your knee protects you. For take down someone who uses that type of kick, you'd have to know when they're throwing it, be faster than he is, and make sure he isn't fighting position if you parry or he misses. Kicks are useful, and so far I've never been taken' down while doing one. It also depends on how you kick, if kick shitty, well.. it's a shitty kick and therefore you're a shitty fighter. Though, maybe one bad kick can cause the fight.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 20, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> This documentary states that Mas Oyama defeated Judokas, Karateka, Savate kick boxers, Capoeira fighters, wrestlers and Muay Thai Kick boxers.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]MiRuj1u2jxM[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> To Heavenly King, please don't ever refer to someone like Mike Tyson as a wild animal. That man had more skill and grace than the majority of K-1 superstars.




i miss judge mike tyson i went back and watch some of his early matches i was wrong.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 20, 2010)

yeah, I'm not really sure where that guy got the idea that kicks are stupid. kicks are very useful for wearing down your opponent.


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## Havoc (Sep 20, 2010)

I think he was talking about head kicks, which are stupid to use in a fight imo.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 20, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> yeah, I'm not really sure where that guy got the idea that kicks are stupid. kicks are very useful for wearing down your opponent.



very true 



Havoc said:


> I think he was talking about head kicks, which are stupid to use in a fight imo.




i think he's even talking about leg kicks too


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## Glued (Sep 20, 2010)

Its not the kicks that should worry Tyson, its the knees.

[YOUTUBE]M8tlR73njQY[/YOUTUBE]

there is a reason why the don't bob, weave or duck in Muay Thai or Kyokushin. 

Its just asking for a knee to the face


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## Havoc (Sep 20, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Its not the kicks that should worry Tyson, its the knees.


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## oMuerte (Sep 20, 2010)

Havoc said:


> I think he was talking about head kicks, which are stupid to use in a fight imo.



Not if used correctly. It's sorta like a finisher. And very useful at times if you have distance. 

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN5qF6b3-us[/YOUTUBE] Check out this hilarious head kick.


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## nadinkrah (Sep 20, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Not if used correctly. It's sorta like a finisher. And very useful at times if you have distance.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN5qF6b3-us[/YOUTUBE] Check out this hilarious head kick.



nice dance lol


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## HUNTER EMS (Sep 24, 2010)

I go with Tyson, why ? Well watch this vid and decide for yourself, i believe that's Tyson at his best.
[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58aMy4MzVsU[/YOUTUBE]


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## Havoc (Sep 24, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Not if used correctly. It's sorta like a finisher. And very useful at times if you have distance.
> 
> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WN5qF6b3-us[/YOUTUBE] Check out this hilarious head kick.


Yea, head kicks usually are meant as a finisher, that doesnt make it any less stupid to use in a real fight.


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## oMuerte (Sep 25, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Yea, head kicks usually are meant as a finisher, that doesnt make it any less stupid to use in a real fight.



Well, to each his own. I find head kicks to be very useful in fights, especially if your opponent is taller. And if used properly it can cause a one-hit KO like the in the video and you can always follow up with another kick combo if you're fast enough.


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## Havoc (Sep 25, 2010)

oMuerte said:


> Well, to each his own. I find head kicks to be very useful in fights, especially if your opponent is taller. And if used properly it can cause a one-hit KO like the in the video and you can always follow up with another kick combo if you're fast enough.


If used properly you can still slip on the ground, miss, not ko the person, etc.


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## Violent by Design (Sep 25, 2010)

If you miss a kick it's hardly the end of the world. Slipping on the ground is not that bad if you know submissions. It's not like there is lava on the floor like some e-street fighters like to spread. I've fallen on the floor in street fights and I didn't die.


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## Havoc (Sep 25, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> If you miss a kick it's hardly the end of the world. Slipping on the ground is not that bad if you know submissions. It's not like there is lava on the floor like some e-street fighters like to spread. I've fallen on the floor in street fights and I didn't die.


Oh shit, really, I thought normally people fought on volcanoes.

And what if you don't know submissions?

Most people don't die in street fights no matter what they do, that's not really the point...


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## Violent by Design (Sep 25, 2010)

Havoc said:


> And what if you don't know submissions?


 Then learn. What if someone doesn't know punches? ~_~ 



> Most people don't die in street fights no matter what they do, that's not really the point...


Thanks captain literal.


It seemed like you were implying that kicks are bad because you can fall. I was just stating that falling isn't even that big of a deal. I don't even get the point of saying something like "missing", obviously you can miss it's a fight.


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## Havoc (Sep 25, 2010)

Violent By Design said:


> Then learn. What if someone doesn't know punches? ~_~
> 
> 
> Thanks captain literal.
> ...


99% of people know how to punch, whether they are doing it correctly is another matter entirely, but it's not at all analogous to learning submissions...

Falling isn't good in a fight and it is a big deal. Most people who train to fight or have been in fights know this.  Ofc you can miss, you can miss a punch, but it leaves you in a lot better position to counter or defend than if you miss a headkick.  Headkicks are high risk attacks, like axe kicks and spinning backfists, if they land that's great, but if not you have a lot bigger chance of getting hurt than if you went for something with less risk and that's still effective.

This is like fighting 101.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 25, 2010)

lol oh my god


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## Weltall8000 (Sep 25, 2010)

> 99% of people know how to punch, whether they are doing it correctly is another matter entirely, but it's not at all analogous to learning submissions...



Though the majority of your Joe Schmoe's can kick too. And sure like with punching, they don't all know how to do it correctly...but aren't the people who are kicking in the scenario...knowledgeable about how to kick?

But if you want to play this game, I can point out that it is fairly likely that someone who doesn't know how to punch will break their hand or wrist because they don't know how/conditioned to perform a punch properly. It's an equally asinine argument though, because we are talking about people who punched and kicked for a living, that obviously know how to perform these attacks well.



> Falling isn't good in a fight and it is a big deal. Most people who train to fight or have been in fights know this. Ofc you can miss, you can miss a punch, but it leaves you in a lot better position to counter or defend than if you miss a headkick. Headkicks are high risk attacks, like axe kicks and spinning backfists, if they land that's great, but if not you have a lot bigger chance of getting hurt than if you went for something with less risk and that's still effective.



Falling is disadvantageous, but it isn't necessarily game over either, particularly if you weren't followed down with the opponent controlling the terms of your fall.

Depends on the block too. If someone takes a high risk punch (like a haymaker for instance) or otherwise telegraphed, they can easily be circled or even hit first. And perhaps you've just never really watched a skilled kicker, but they are capable of unleashing rapid combos of kicks and/or punches. It isn't just one big attack and pray they land it.

Spinning backfists are often used in the wake of a missed kick to keep the opponent off the kicker. If it connects sure, great. If it doesn't, it probably just did its job in acting as a distraction while the kicker gets reset or launches another attack.



> This is like fighting 101.



Did you ever make it to the 200 level courses? It seems like you missed out on the chapter outlining the fundamentals of kicking.


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## Havoc (Sep 25, 2010)

Weltall8000 said:


> Though the majority of your Joe Schmoe's can kick too. And sure like with punching, they don't all know how to do it correctly...but aren't the people who are kicking in the scenario...knowledgeable about how to kick?
> 
> But if you want to play this game, I can point out that it is fairly likely that someone who doesn't know how to punch will break their hand or wrist because they don't know how/conditioned to perform a punch properly. It's an equally asinine argument though, because we are talking about people who punched and kicked for a living, that obviously know how to perform these attacks well.



People who are knowledgeable about kicking rarely go for headkicks, there's a reason why Crocop was so popular, he was one of the few who could win with headkicks.  Shogun is capable of headkicks, but he doesn't use them in a fight because he knows there's a better chance for him to get put on his back than with a low or mid kick.

It's actually not likely that you would break your hand even if you didn't know the proper mechanics of throwing a punch.  I'm not sure where you got that info.

And I thought we were talking about street fights, not professionals, so...



> Falling is disadvantageous, but it isn't necessarily game over either, particularly if you weren't followed down with the opponent controlling the terms of your fall.


So we agree falling is disadvantageous, good.



> Depends on the block too. If someone takes a high risk punch (like a haymaker for instance) or otherwise telegraphed, they can easily be circled or even hit first. And perhaps you've just never really watched a skilled kicker, but they are capable of unleashing rapid combos of kicks and/or punches. It isn't just one big attack and pray they land it.


So you understand the concept of a high risk attack, good.  Now why can't you understand that using a high risk attack in a street fight isn't smart?  If these skilled kickers never participated in WEC, UFC, Strikeforce, K1, or Pride, then you're right, I probably haven't seen them



> Spinning backfists are often used in the wake of a missed kick to keep the opponent off the kicker. If it connects sure, great. If it doesn't, it probably just did its job in acting as a distraction while the kicker gets reset or launches another attack.


Spinning backfists also miss the target and get countered, which leads us back to high risk attacks.





> Did you ever make it to the 200 level courses? It seems like you missed out on the chapter outlining the fundamentals of kicking.


Yea, the course said headkicks are stupid in a street fight.


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## Havoc (Sep 25, 2010)

Heavenly King said:


> lol oh my god


Anything to add?

You just found out Tyson wasn't a mindless animal, I wouldn't be laughing at anything anyone in this thread was saying.


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## Weltall8000 (Sep 25, 2010)

> People who are knowledgeable about kicking rarely go for headkicks, there's a reason why Crocop was so popular, he was one of the few who could win with headkicks. Shogun is capable of headkicks, but he doesn't use them in a fight because he knows there's a better chance for him to get put on his back than with a low or mid kick.



Not sure where this came to UFC, but kicking to the head is a very viable option in sparring as well as real world application. Nor am I saying they are always the best option with kicks, striking the legs is great for slowing down and weakening an opponent's foundation.



> It's actually not likely that you would break your hand even if you didn't know the proper mechanics of throwing a punch. I'm not sure where you got that info.



It's quite easy actually. If the hand isn't lined up with proper support of the arm, the hand can buckle and damage the wrist. If the fist isn't held properly (tight) supporting the fingers, they can move and get jammed or even broken. Punching without the focus being on the two knuckles of the index finger and middle finger and striking with the pinky and ring fingers can end up in a fairly common break from punching which was dubbed the "boxer's break/fracture."



> And I thought we were talking about street fights, not professionals, so...



Then again going back to that mentality you are arguing that kicks are ineffective because people that don't know how to properly use them, would fall down if they were to use them.

That's like me saying that because the majority of civilians can't pilot airplanes, but can drive cars. Cars are the best method for going across the continental USA and it is stupid for those that do know how to fly a plane to do so.



> So we agree falling is disadvantageous, good.



However, there are plenty of options and the real issue is that people who actually do know how to perform a kick, are not going to just fall down from missing a kick as you seem to suggest.



> So you understand the concept of a high risk attack, good. Now why can't you understand that using a high risk attack in a street fight isn't smart? If these skilled kickers never participated in WEC, UFC, Strikeforce, K1, or Pride, then you're right, I probably haven't seen them



You can't get passed the fact that a kick to the head doesn't even usually end in falling down.



> Spinning backfists also miss the target and get countered, which leads us back to high risk attacks.



Spinning backfists aren't very dedicated attacks. But if you want to consider it to be so, then I suppose jabs are "high risk" attacks too.



> Yea, the course said headkicks are stupid in a street fight.



Though you have not supplied any actual evidence supporting that someone who knows how to perform one competently should not perform one in a street fight (hell, I've dropped someone in a street fight with a roundhouse kick to the head). Nor have you had any real tie in as to why kicks are actually a stupid idea against Tyson in the fight this thread is about, aside from your over exaggeration about the likelihood of a kicker falling over.

Believe it or not, kicks can be very fast both on the way out and on the way back. Strong kickers are also able to maintain their balance if they hit or miss with a kick. If a kicker sees an opening for the head, there is little reason not to take it. Just like the drunken boxer in the video earlier in this thread did with his kick, he saw the opportunity and blasted his opponent with a high kick...and he didn't fall down.


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## Glued (Sep 25, 2010)

Why are we talking about headkicks, what about the low kicks and the knees, how will Tyson defend against them.


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## Heavenly King (Sep 26, 2010)

Ben Grimm said:


> Why are we talking about headkicks, what about the low kicks and the knees, how will Tyson defend against them.



the thing is he would


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## Heavenly King (Sep 26, 2010)

Havoc said:


> Anything to add?
> 
> You just found out Tyson wasn't a mindless animal, I wouldn't be laughing at anything anyone in this thread was saying.



 tyson isn't going to know what to do when he get's kicks to the leg. he's going to be force to do something that's just going get him self k.o by Oyama.


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## Murderous Intent (Sep 27, 2010)

he apparently is a judo blackbelt which means he has knowlegde of groundgame. If he takes it to the ground which he can handily he will win. If he is foolish enough to stand with mike tyson of all boxers he will lose in most scenarios.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 28, 2010)

> he apparently is a judo blackbelt



NO he isn't!!! he's a kyokushinkai karate's 10th dan, the highest rank in eastern martial arts


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## dimhaku (Sep 28, 2010)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> NO he isn't!!! he's a kyokushinkai karate's 10th dan, the highest rank in eastern martial arts



............
he's also trained in judo. God, you're the OP and you don't even know about the people you set up to fight. GTFO

here's something for you, notice the 4th dan judo in the intro box to the right?


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## Glued (Sep 28, 2010)

For four years, Mas Oyama was practicing judo alongside Goju-ryu karate.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 28, 2010)

he was MAINLY a karateka, not a judoka, I was saiyng that


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