# Seinen > Shounen?



## Batman (Feb 28, 2008)

I see that a lot of people are stating that Seinen > Shounen. It's the tagline underneath a lot of sigs lately. So I'm curious as to why you hold that opinion. If you are of the opposite opinion, I wanna know why too.

Personally I think that 4 out my top 5 favorite manga are shounen. So tell me what I'm not seeing.


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## Yamato-takeru (Feb 28, 2008)

The hell? Shounen and Seinen are GENRES, right? It's like choosing between apples and bananas.

Whatever suits you, really.

But I guess people just like more serious stories.


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## Felix (Feb 28, 2008)

Although all the Seinen's Ive read till now are top quality, I cant say the same for the Shounen. Although both have pro's and con's, I think Seinen gets a little edge right here, but its only due a slight margin in my opinion.


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## Gary (Feb 28, 2008)

it just your opion


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## Zephos (Feb 28, 2008)

Seinen have the capability to be finer pieces of literature and have better art due to..

1. Not usually weekly released.
2. Aimed for older audiences.
3. Less strict editors I'm sure, in other words more freedom.

But than there's Seinen like Gantz. Which is mindless action that happends to be gorier and have tits.

So no, saying "Shonen < Seinen" is a silly generalization.


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## Sasuke_fanboy (Feb 28, 2008)

Its just someone's opinion. I personally preffer the shounen Genre. The only seinen manga thats in my top 5 is black lagoon, the rest are all shounen.


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## fxu (Feb 28, 2008)

I like both.


Different genres ... it's like somebody saying rap is better than rock and vice-versa.

It's your opinion :\


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## Kazuma the Shell Bullet (Feb 28, 2008)

Although my 2 favorite series, JoJo's Bizarre Adventure and Hunter x Hunter, are shounen (well, JJBA part 7 is seinen), seinen is *much* better overall because it isn't filled with generic garbage like Bleach


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## The Fireball Kid (Feb 28, 2008)

Arkanius said:


> Although all the Seinen's Ive read till now are top quality, I cant say the same for the Shounen. Although both have pro's and con's, I think Seinen gets a little edge right here, but its only due a slight margin in my opinion.



I agree with this 100%. I've read more good Seinin than I've read Shounen. Hell, the only Shounens I read anymore is Dragon Ball and Naruto. But when it comes to Seinin, I read Gantz, Buddha, Lone Wolf & Cub, Akira, Blade of the Immortal, and a few others.

But, IMO... it depends on the manga. Saying Seinin Manga > Naruto, well I agree with that. But saying Seining Manga > Dragon Ball... well that's just wrong.


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## Yamato-takeru (Feb 28, 2008)

Zephos said:


> But than there's Seinen like Gantz. Which is mindless action that happends to be gorier and have tits.



Well, I don't know about Second Stage, but to me Gantz was a cool story. Especially how the main character developed from an asshole to ...well... a hero?

But now that you mention it, Seinen may just have an edge because of more "freedom". Meh, maybe it's because it is for an older audience? You'd never be allowed to have that much gore/nudity in Shounen,_ because it's for children/ younger people._


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## Graham Aker (Feb 28, 2008)

> So I'm curious as to why you hold that opinion.


They probably think it makes them cool.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Feb 28, 2008)

Josei/Seinen stories or arts are realistic. yes its my opinion

btw, I don't hate Shounen at all....



Yamato-takeru said:


> Well, I don't know about Second Stage, but to me Gantz was a cool story. Especially how the main character developed from an asshole to ...well... a hero?
> 
> But now that you mention it, Seinen may just have an edge because of more "freedom". Meh, maybe it's because it is for an older audience? You'd never be allowed to have that much gore/nudity in *Shounen, because it's for children/ younger people*_._


yes it is..


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## Amatsu (Feb 28, 2008)

Graham Acre said:


> They probably think it makes them cool.



I'm going with that view as well. I mean Seinei are good but they're not exactly as great as people claim. There are great seinei and shitty seinei just as there's great shounen and shitty shounen.

If people say Seinei is better it's probably because they think reading a more "mature and adult" series makes them superior to those that only read shounen.


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## Batman (Feb 28, 2008)

When I really sit down and think about it, its difficult for me to say which has held more appeal to me overall. I mean considering I'm much more likely to stumble upon a random Shounen story then a Seinen one says a lot. There "seems" to be a higher volume of shounen available, so I would have to compare the percentages I suppose. But on the other hand, the only Seinen's that I've read have been through encouragement and they've  been quality over 90% of the time. Berserk, Shin Angyo Onshi, Team Medical Dragon, Gantz (I'm all for this series as the undercurrent of its meaning has yet to surface. I don't like how every monster looks like it smells like sewage though.), Monster but I don't tend to go looking for Seinen material.

Something about the excessive gore turns me off, yet it intrigues me to an extent. At the same time its nice to sit down to a story that I know isn't going to make me wrinkle my nose. Its nice not to have something seem overly violent for it to be considered adult. Which is where shounen shines. They are able to make serious stories without needing to physically disembowel people. Sometimes I think people like to get on the Seinen bandwagon because it's cool to like blood and guts and boobs. Yet the stories they back are usually high quality works.

But really good shounen tends to be on a similar level with really good seinen. So I suppose it comes down to preference.


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## Traveller~ (Feb 28, 2008)

I think for the more mature reader seinen manga hit a lot of points a shounen just can't manage. They often contain more sophisticated plots, deeper characters and generally better writing (thats not to say a shounen can't manage these of course) though I think stereotypes often lead to people thinking Seinen just = gore and nudity

Its always going to be a matter of personal preference though as to which any one person prefers; there's no definitive way to gauge which is "better". If you like shounen you like shounen, if you like seinen you like seinen.


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## Tokito (Feb 28, 2008)

generally speaking, seinen got:
- deeper and better plot
- better character development / characters in general
- better artwork

However I'm not saying shounen can not be good. Of course there are a few exceptions. 
But if you take a random seinen-manga and shounen-manga, the possibility that the seinen-manga is good is way higher than the shounen-manga being good.

in short:



Zephos said:


> Seinen have the capability to be finer pieces of literature.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Zephos said:


> Seinen have the capability to be finer pieces of literature and have better art due to..
> 
> 1. Not usually weekly released.
> 2. Aimed for older audiences.
> ...



Thats true but Gantz never was mindless the time Kurono was alive this manga was the best now it's kinda bad since he is dead and all.

But there is a shonen that put alot of seinen in trash level and its call *Claymore* maybe the best shonen ever i mean people really die in this manga there is no plot no justsu and you never know what is going to happend next.


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## Chi (Feb 28, 2008)

Maybe it's because most Seinen aren't about boy with hidden power/potential inside, tragic past, misterious parents and alot of crap about protecting your friends, believing in yourself and whatnot.
Seriously. Vast majority shounen have similar "skeleton". So it's like, you read 1 shounen = you read most of them..

Seinen has less censorship and aimed for older audience, where ideals/worries and understanding of life are different. This allows for soo many different stories.
It's like comparing fairy tail with some serious literature.


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## Karin Maaka (Feb 28, 2008)

Yamato-takeru said:


> But now that you mention it, Seinen may just have an edge because of more "freedom". Meh, maybe it's because it is for an older audience? You'd never be allowed to have that much gore/nudity in Shounen,_ because it's for children/ younger people._



 Well, I happen to have a shounen magazine (Dragon AGE) right here and one of the manga has a full-blown sex scene in it and another one has naked lolis. 

 Hmm...


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Seinen is good because it's far more real too you got sex, rape, violence, torture and mutilation but in Shounen you don't have even a kiss and you have to play by the rules like in Naruto where everbody hates sasuke just because he don't give a shit about his friends and all that crap now if Sasuke was a hero from a Seinen manga i bet the hate will be place on naruto, i mean Guts did the almost the same Sasuke did he leave the Hawk because of his dream can you imagine Griffth runing like a stupid bich after Guts like Naruto is doing for Sasuke?

P.S I said almost ok but remember Guts fight his way out the Hawks too but of course he didn't really try to kill Griff.


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## Felix (Feb 28, 2008)

Shin Angyo Onshi does not have nudity, Vagabond has almost no nudity and they are both top Seinen piece of works. 
Seinen does not = Boobs and Gore. Fortunately.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Arkanius said:


> Shin Angyo Onshi does not have nudity, Vagabond has almost no nudity and they are both top Seinen piece of works.
> Seinen does not = Boobs and Gore. Fortunately.



Untrue Vagabond have some Gore the other i don't know anyway you got more Gore from Vagabond than in a typical Shounen manga like Inuyasha.


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## Godot (Feb 28, 2008)

Shounen and Sienen are just demographics. A target audience doesn't neccessarily make mangas better or worse. What makes mangas better is how much the mangakas utilise their target audience's tastes, to make their mangas more successful.

It's like saying which is better: A children-show for babies, or porn?



zonic the hedgehog said:


> Well, I happen to have a shounen magazine (Dragon AGE) right here and one of the manga has a full-blown sex scene in it and another one *has naked lolis. *
> 
> Hmm...



he finally confesses to his loli desires


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## Crowe (Feb 28, 2008)

It's not about whether it is seinen or shounen, it's about the series for me.


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## Amatsu (Feb 28, 2008)

Yoburi said:


> Seinen is good because it's far more real too you got sex, rape, violence, torture and mutilation but in Shounen you don't have even a kiss and you have to play by the rules like in Naruto where everbody hates sasuke just because he don't give a shit about his friends and all that crap now if Sasuke was a hero from a Seinen manga i bet the hate will be place on naruto, i mean Guts did the almost the same Sasuke did he leave the Hawk because of his dream can you imagine Griffth runing like a stupid bich after Guts like Naruto is doing for Sasuke?
> 
> P.S I said almost ok but remember Guts fight his way out the Hawks too but of course he didn't really try to kill Griff.



Why? People hate Griffith for the same reasons they hate Sasuke. Except the griffith haters are just less vocal.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Aethos said:


> Why? People hate Griffith for the same reasons they hate Sasuke. Except the griffith haters are just less vocal.



Well i don't see Griffth hate in this forum its just Sasuke i measn you can't even say you like him that people bash or neg rep you besides Griffth is the main villain and maybe the best i ever see you can't hate a God can you?


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## Felix (Feb 28, 2008)

Claymore isnt Seinen.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

No wuzzman *Claymore* never was a good seinin its a fucking good shounen maybe the best i ever read.


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## Unrivaled (Feb 28, 2008)

Yamato-takeru said:


> The hell? Shounen and Seinen are GENRES, right? It's like choosing between apples and bananas.
> 
> Whatever suits you, really.



Thread over..
Lock it up mods.


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## Disturbia (Feb 28, 2008)

Both of them are cool, but I prefer seinen more.


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## zuul (Feb 28, 2008)

Seinen appeal to me more, because the authors have more liberties. Shounen's ones have too deal with a lot of clichés : friendship crap, stupid main characters, goods against villains, etc.

There are shitty seinens and good shounens of course but I think it's more easy to write a good manga when you're a seinen author.

I can't believe Claymore is a shounen.


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## Ennoea (Feb 28, 2008)

It depends on the manga quality rather which age its aimed for, yes Senien manga are great but but just like Shonene theres also a ton of Senien that are shit.

Its a dumb comparison to make anyway, it depends on personal preference.


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## Felix (Feb 28, 2008)

Death Note was Shonen as well, even though it looked Seinen.


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## Codde (Feb 28, 2008)

Yamato-takeru said:


> The hell? Shounen and Seinen are GENRES, right? It's like choosing between apples and bananas.
> 
> Whatever suits you, really.
> 
> But I guess people just like more serious stories.


They're not genres (at least the definition of the word genre I have in mind), they're merely demographics. If something is serialied in a Shounen manga, it's a Shounen. If it's in a Seinen magazine, it's a Seinen. Regardless of content, just that editors for mangas targeted towards a particular demographic tend to exert a certain control over the mangas to adhere to the magazines "themes" and whatnot. Of course a mangaka targetting kids probably won't have an overly-mature story but that's not always the case.

I find that on average, I find Seinen manga better, but a lot of the best mangas I've read (Dragonball, Slam Dunk, One Piece, FMA,  Hikaru no Go, etc ...) are Shounen.

 Of course the genres within the particular demographic matter, for example, I don't care for Seinen like Clannad or Lucky Star anymore than I'd care for Shounen equivalent for the genres those two fit in (it'd probably be less prone to being full of moe or your typical fanservice actually.)


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## Kenny Florian (Feb 28, 2008)

zonic the hedgehog said:


> Well, I happen to have a shounen magazine (Dragon AGE) right here and one of the manga has a full-blown sex scene in it and another one *has naked lolis*.
> 
> Hmm...



Why would you even want that?


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## Sasori (Feb 28, 2008)

Zephos said:


> But than there's Seinen like Gantz. Which is mindless action that happends to be gorier and have tits.


Fail. You obviously can't see the underlying subtexts of the story.

The plot/story is quite original, and it makes use of gore/sex to make it that much more real and also interesting.

I guess ppl may feel that it is "mindless" due to it's monthly releases so it appears that is all there is atm. Just wait till a couple of volumes are out and if u read it all in one go u will see how the pacing works.


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## Fruits Basket Fan (Feb 28, 2008)

Probably seinen would be nice.....The author could have more liberty and we could see romantic relationships (if any) in full view in those rare moments.....


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Yeah how can anyone call mindless action when Tae give Kurono a blowjob


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## Amatsu (Feb 28, 2008)

Darker Hershey Lite said:


> Why would you even want that?



The same reason people think having rape in seinei is cool.


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## KLoWn (Feb 28, 2008)

I couldn't care less if it's shonen or seinin as long as it's good.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

KLoWn said:


> I couldn't care less if it's shonen or seinin as long as it's good.



I agred but i think the reason why so much people belive that Seinin > Shounen is because of Naruto and Bleach they start good but now they are almost shit and since they are Shounen...


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 28, 2008)

Seinen is almost like Shounen, except for the fact that it has a MUCH wider scope of things it can do. It can have more romance than a shoujou, more blood and action(and gore because its aimed at older people) then a shounen, and it can be smart too, as its aimed at older people and not just young kids that a lot of shounen authors feel must be "dumbed down" for.  Not to mention the fact that usually seinen manga come out monthly so their quality is better than most manga.


A word of advice? Read World Embryo.


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## Taleran (Feb 28, 2008)

I don't care about genre only quality


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## serger989 (Feb 28, 2008)

Doesn't matter to me, I like whatever story interests me and it just so happens Berserk is the story I'm most interested in versus any other manga, Naruto would be second ;P Just my personal tastes is all.


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## Kuroro (Feb 28, 2008)

I tend to read a lot of manga which crosses the field in various genres. I read shounen titles, seinen titles, and even shoujo titles. Overall, in regards to the whole "shounen vs seinen" matter, I lean towards seinen for the following reasons.

1: Seinen titles have a deeper, more developed plot than shounen
2: Top-notch character development for all characters in general
3: Superior artwork

Seinen titles hold such traits though generally because they're not normally weekly released and aimed at older audiences.

But good shounen titles do exist though, and they compete on similar grounds to good seinen titles. So, the matter simply comes down to a matter of preference.


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## Detonator_Fan (Feb 28, 2008)

It depends...

I usually dislike some seinen mangas that are all about the gore but with no enjoyable plot.

But on the other hand I really like Rozen Maiden, Monster, Kodomo no Jikan and Spice & Wolf...


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## Yamato-takeru (Feb 28, 2008)

Aethos said:


> Why? People hate Griffith for the same reasons they hate Sasuke. Except the griffith haters are just less vocal.



But Griffith raepd Caska! He's a poopoohead!


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## Parallax (Feb 28, 2008)

A good series is a good series, that's how I look at it.  Despite most of my favorite series being Seinen, I still read and enjoy a large number of Shonen


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## Ari (Feb 28, 2008)

I like shonen better.

Some good shonen: Naruto, Bleach, *Claymore*, D Gray Man, Dears, Grenadier, Karin, Pokemon, Rurouni Kenshin, Law of Ueki, Yu Yu Hakusho, Zombie-Loan

Some good seinen: Blood+, Clannad, *ELFEN LIED*, FateStay Night, High School Girls, Higurashi no Naku Koro ni, Rozen Maiden, XXXHolic


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## Taleran (Feb 28, 2008)

Aethos said:


> Why? People hate Griffith for the same reasons they hate Sasuke. Except the griffith haters are just less vocal.



not true at all


people like Griffiths character, hate his actions and motivations and therefore comes off as being a great villain

people hate Sasukes character


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## ~Shin~ (Feb 28, 2008)

Usually shounen is more simplistic than seinens. I, personally, am not all that interested in reading about the same old shounen lead having hidden power or an underdog going around getting courageous and beating up his villains while preaching about JUSTICE. Of course there are some exceptions where there's more variety in it. (Like JJBA)

Seinen on the other hand has much less restrictions since it's aimed at an older audience. There's usually more overall depth as opposed to shounen. 

Though it depends on preference. It just depends if you like simplistic manga or mangas with a little more intricacy.


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## Amatsu (Feb 28, 2008)

> not true at all
> 
> 
> people like Griffiths character, hate his actions and motivations and therefore comes off as being a great villain
> ...



I just see a lot of Anti-Griffith sentiment in the Berserk threads that mirrors the anti-Sasuke sentiment a little. That's all I'm saying...



> But Griffith raepd Caska! He's a poopoohead!



he's also a poopiehead for betraying his friends for power and trying his best to kill them in his completely feminine Femto form.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Feb 28, 2008)

I think its stupid to call one demographic better then another demographic. I mean, based on personal taste you can say that _on average_ you tend to like Seinen/Shounen manga better, but to say that Seinen/Shouen is inherently better then other is just stupid and narrow minded.

Personally, _on average_, I actually find myself enjoying Shounen more often then Seinen. However, thats just because of my personal taste in fiction.


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## Taleran (Feb 28, 2008)

*holy cough the series in your set*


*cough*


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## The Drunken Monkey (Feb 28, 2008)

Seinen, the usually have a more complex and darker storyline which I enjoy more. And the art is usually amazing. O_O


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## Red (Feb 28, 2008)

Read what suits you. My general outlook is that seinen is better, but like somone said it's like saying apples are better than oranges. It's all a matter of opinion.

In b4 a billion "Seinen readers only read it to look cool"

@Aethos

I don't really see griffith hate, and the ones that I do see are because he's a bishei and for some reason people hate that.


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

OOOOHHH MY  GOD That avatar did GODHellsing OVA got out? 

I love Alucard


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## Luciferxxxxx (Feb 28, 2008)

my dad said seinen is better 



Yoburi said:


> OOOOHHH MY  GOD That avatar did GODHellsing OVA got out?
> 
> I love A*l*ucard


*fixed*

hmm I never watched anime in 4 months


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## Yoburi (Feb 28, 2008)

Lucifer said:


> my dad said seinen is better
> 
> 
> *fixed*
> ...



Well you can't blame me after all i just run to see the new OVA and you just don't know how good this OVAs are.


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## Luciferxxxxx (Feb 28, 2008)

Yoburi said:


> Well you can't blame me after all i just run to see the new OVA and you just don't know how good this OVAs are.


uh I meant I stopped watching anime for about 4 months


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## Knut (Feb 28, 2008)

That is only a matter of pure taste. I for myself, prefer seinen and all the reasons are already stated. 

They are almost free from restrictions compared to shonen, the art is usually better and the storyline is deeper and more complex. 

I mean, i like op, naruto, db and all that stuff but it is always the same. Next island, next bossfight, next island and so on. And between all that, some emotions. That was an op example. ^^ Naruto: I want to become hokage. Son goku: i want to become the strongest in universe.

Don?t get me wrong, i like that because it is very simple and entertaining. But from time to time, i need something "better." ^^


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## Taleran (Feb 28, 2008)

I hope you realize that Seinen's also are that easy to break down when you generalize the plot like that


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## Red (Feb 28, 2008)

Yoburi said:


> OOOOHHH MY  GOD That avatar did GODHellsing OVA got out?
> 
> I love Alucard


yup, rip van winkle is teh smex.


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## Inuhanyou (Feb 28, 2008)

With Seinen's, a friend who goes astray is more likely to become evil or die then be redeemed


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## Knut (Feb 28, 2008)

Taleran said:


> I hope you realize that Seinen's also are that easy to break down when you generalize the plot like that




I see, where you are coming from. Of course i considered, that you can generalize everything. But in my opinion, is is by far more difficult to generalize seinen, than shonen. Of course you have to differentiate. There are seinen out where, like elfen lied and so on, which only contain blood, violence and gore. They are for certain not so mature, as some other seinen or some shonen like naruto or op. Imo. 
But i don?t talk about them. I talk abot such manga, like 20th century boys, monster or battle angel alita. It is very difficult to generalize this kind of manga, because their start is more complex. Op starts with the wish of luffy to become pirate king. This is the mainplot and it will remain to the end. Of couse there is a hell of alot more in this kind of story but the main thing is clear. 
Such manga as i stated above, have a different and more complex aproach to this whole thing. The framework is different, more "underneath." And i like it. That is all, i want so point out, as i said, i like shonen very much, i read them for entertaining, distraction or relaxation. But personally, i prefer seinen. It is as easy as that.


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## Proxy (Feb 28, 2008)

To me, it doesn't really matter about the genre so much as it does the story and its characters. I've read a couple of Seinen and many Shounen and I have a preference for Shounen, not because it's not as graphic but just because it interests me more. And I'm above the legal age for those thinking that my decision is based on my age and assumed likes and/or dislikes.


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## Vandal Savage (Feb 28, 2008)

It really is about taste in my opinion. They are different genres and provide things for different people.


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## Taleran (Feb 28, 2008)

Knut said:


> I see, where you are coming from. Of course i considered, that you can generalize everything. But in my opinion, is is by far more difficult to generalize seinen, than shonen. Of course you have to differentiate. There are seinen out where, like elfen lied and so on, which only contain blood, violence and gore. They are for certain not so mature, as some other seinen or some shonen like naruto or op. Imo.
> But i don?t talk about them. I talk abot such manga, like 20th century boys, monster or battle angel alita. It is very difficult to generalize this kind of manga, because their start is more complex. Op starts with the wish of luffy to become pirate king. This is the mainplot and it will remain to the end. Of couse there is a hell of alot more in this kind of story but the main thing is clear.
> Such manga as i stated above, have a different and more complex aproach to this whole thing. The framework is different, more "underneath." And i like it. That is all, i want so point out, as i said, i like shonen very much, i read them for entertaining, distraction or relaxation. But personally, i prefer seinen. It is as easy as that.



20th Century boys is about Rock and Roll and saving the world from Monsters Aliens and Cults

Monster is a medical thriller on the trail of a madman


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## Knut (Feb 29, 2008)

Well alright. As i have stated, you can generalize everything. But i really think, that my generalisation of op is more fitting than yours. ^^

Because then, you can also say the most manga are about living things, this is a really stupid game, that i don´t want to play. Luffy wants to become the pirate king, this is the main plot and a fact. And 20th century boys is not about saving the world, because of that, i spoke of this whole underneath thing. Saving the world and rock and roll, is only the facade. 
But it is okay, i have already detected, that you like shonen and i have not stated something about it. That i prefer seinen, is my opinion and i don´t think that this is arguable. My reasons are above.


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## Batman (Feb 29, 2008)

What are some seinen's that don't go over the top with gore. I can really only think of one where blood splattered like paint hasn't happened. (team medical dragon)


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## Knut (Feb 29, 2008)

Hmm, you don?t have much blood in 20th, pluto or monster. Generally, in all of urasawas works. In homunculus either. Also baa, akira, last order and so on, are not going over the top with that. It contains blood of course but is is not "made" with blood, like hellsing, elfen lied or priest. You could also try banana fish but this is a shojo.


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## Royal King (Feb 29, 2008)

Well Shounen > Seinen for me. Shounen has Guyver.
I have checked out alot of seinen manga but at the end of the day I just really could not get into any of them.


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## Parallax (Feb 29, 2008)

Batman said:


> What are some seinen's that don't go over the top with gore. I can really only think of one where blood splattered like paint hasn't happened. (team medical dragon)



Monster
Pluto
REAL
20th Century Boys
Vagabond(well it's bloody, but realistic)
Zetman


and Seinen tend to have more complex plots.  BUT they too can be generalized.  Hell any story can be summarized in one sentence.


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## Yoburi (Feb 29, 2008)

Parallax said:


> and Seinen tend to have more complex plots.  BUT they too can be generalized.  Hell any story can be summarized in one sentence.



Thats true i can give a summary in one word.

Berserk= Epic
Gantz= Tits
HxH= Hisoka
Claymore= Smile 
Naruto= Sharingan
Bleach= Joke
Hellsing= Overpower
Inuyasha= Lame


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## Ork (Feb 29, 2008)

Aethos said:


> I'm going with that view as well. I mean Seinei are good but they're not exactly as great as people claim. There are great seinei and shitty seinei just as there's great shounen and shitty shounen.
> 
> If people say Seinei is better it's probably because they think reading a more "mature and adult" series makes them superior to those that only read shounen.



Says the guy with a picture from A certain Unnamed anime thats as violent as they come?

I prefer Berserk Because its Gritty, gives me a shiver up my spine and has an engaging storyline.

I hate many shounen because they turn into 400 episodes of CRAP, once the manga/anime is secured as "popular" you can immediately see animation quality drop. Or, in the case of the manga, the plot starts to degrade and the chapters become more "TVised" as in, longer times standing around talking in the middle of fights.
Have you ever seen a Villian in Berserk gloat in the middle of the fight, COMPLETELY describe his ability to his opponent, then describe his moves?


Random Apostle: Mwahaha you have no chance! My Ability is that I can grow to ten times my normal size! Mwahaha!
Gutts: Oh no! Thats bad! IF you grow to ten times your normal size I won't be able to cut off your head!
Random Apostle: Mwahaha *grows*
Gutts: Haha! YOu grew to ten times your normal size on a weak spot in the buildings structure and fell! Haha I win!

... yeah right. And thats what happens in shounen, In Bleach, the Espada DESCRIBE their abilites to the Shinigami "Oh I can regrow from inside anyone" 
"Oh I can take control of anything one of my eyes see's"
Its the same in Naruto and One piece... Its bullshit.

Frankly, I'm 18, and I don't engage with plots designed to attract younger teens.


There is no filler in Berserk (Or any seinen I know)
There is more freedom in what the author is allowed to print.
A good Shounen Is D.Gray man. When its not doing filler. As all shounen do if they go over 20 episodes.

Thats why I think Seinen>Shounen.

Its just a Generalisation. There are good shounen and Bad Seinen.


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## Wuzzman (Mar 1, 2008)

d.gray died in greatness a while ago. The enemies explaining their abilities is for the readers benefit not the other way around. Other wise we be sitting around "wtf'ing" about every move. Also thats a super generalization, not even most villains explain their abilities. Except in bleach, but they got some wild shit but most of the time the hero in mention figures it out before the villian even has to say it. It's simply a dialogue devise used to create a sense of despair and hopelessness. Which is in general the second purpose of explaining abilities, it adds drama(at least in a good shounen). To be fair berserk doesn't have super cool special abilities that tax the human mind into figuring out wtf does that do. The most complex thing about Berserk villain fights is how Gutts going to kill them. Which can be the general case for most seinin fights.


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## Darts (Mar 1, 2008)

Absence said:


> Says the guy with a picture from A certain Unnamed anime thats as violent as they come?


And this matters because...?



> I hate many shounen because they turn into 400 episodes of CRAP, once the manga/anime is secured as "popular" you can immediately see animation quality drop. Or, in the case of the manga, the plot starts to degrade and the chapters become more "TVised" as in, longer times standing around talking in the middle of fights.


Ironic how you think Berserk is any different. The only reason Berserk still has a large fanbase is because of pre-Eclipse.



> Frankly, I'm 18, and I don't engage with plots designed to attract younger teens.


You do realize Berserk has a lot of shounen elements, especially post-Eclipse right? You pretty much proved what Aethos was saying.



> There is no filler in Berserk (Or any seinen I know)
> A good Shounen Is D.Gray man. When its not doing filler. As all shounen do if they go over 20 episodes.


Wrong on so many levels.


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## Mullet_Power (Mar 2, 2008)

Absence said:


> Frankly, I'm 18, and I don't engage with plots designed to attract younger teens.



I don't know what normal 13 year old boy would not engage with a plot that includes buckets of blood and boobies. Just because something is aimed at an older audience doesn't make it mature. The same can be said for the oposite.


Personally I haven't ever gotten into a Seinin manga (I have seen Animes aimed at older audiences, such as Akira) but that is because uber blood and guts are a turn off for me. But that's because to me it comes off as just a cheap way to add shock value to the story, much like in horror movies where they use loud noises to make people jump. Also they seem way to serious, I love the comedy aspect of Shounen, in fact it is my favorite part of the genre.


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## ~Shin~ (Mar 2, 2008)

Why do people assume that seinen automatically includes superfluous "boobs, blood, gore etc.."?

Monster is a seinen and has no over the top violence or nudity. 20th CB is also a seinen and has nothing like that. So is REAL!, Akira, SAO, Pluto, Homonculus (it has sex but isn't just for fanservice), Vagabond etc...

Not every seinen is Elfen Lied.


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## Detonator_Fan (Mar 2, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> Why do people assume that seinen automatically includes superfluous "boobs, blood, gore etc.."?
> 
> Monster is a seinen and has no over the top violence or nudity. 20th CB is also a seinen and has nothing like that. So is REAL!, Akira, SAO, Pluto, Homonculus (it has sex but isn't just for fanservice), Vagabond etc...
> 
> Not every seinen is Elfen Lied.



Rozen Maiden, Lucky Star...


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## Zephos (Mar 2, 2008)

> I don't know what normal 13 year old boy would not engage with a plot that includes buckets of blood and boobies. Just because something is aimed at an older audience doesn't make it mature. The same can be said for the oposite.



I agree with this strongly, people don't seem to get that. My Dog Skip is more mature than Scream for instance.



> Personally I haven't ever gotten into a Seinin manga (I have seen Animes aimed at older audiences, such as Akira) but that is because uber blood and guts are a turn off for me. But that's because to me it comes off as just a cheap way to add shock value to the story, much like in horror movies where they use loud noises to make people jump. Also they seem way to serious, I love the comedy aspect of Shounen, in fact it is my favorite part of the genre.



But this I strongly disagree with.

There's plenty comedy in some seinen.
While some shonen are humorless.

Vagabond, Berserk, and Akira all have plenty of the same sort of comedy you might see around shonen. Enough to rival One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach or so.
While I fail to see the comedy in a shonen like Death Note.

Shonen is also every bit as full of violence and fanservice as seinen, it's just on a lower level. It's no more innocent of your accusations than seinen is.
Panty shots become nudity shots, cartoony heads coming off become more realistic heads coming off.


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## Detonator_Fan (Mar 2, 2008)

Zephos said:


> But this I strongly disagree with.
> 
> There's plenty comedy in some seinen.
> While some shonen are humorless.
> ...



Well, to be fair to him what he said does make some sense in some of the popular seinen. 
It looks like in the west, to some seinen fans more gore = better.
If you take Blame!, Gantz and mangas like that...

There are lots of seinen that have a weak plot but lots of gore. Sure there are weak shounen too, but the point is still there...


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## Ennoea (Mar 2, 2008)

> Vagabond, Berserk, and Akira all have plenty of the same sort of comedy you might see around shonen. Enough to rival One Piece, Dragonball, Bleach or so.



Lets not go too far, Senien aren't really known for their comedy moments and Bleach just isn't funny.

Anyway its a silly comparison, Shonen are great just as Senien. I don't see why people make a rivalry between them?


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## Amatsu (Mar 2, 2008)

> Why do people assume that seinen automatically includes superfluous "boobs, blood, gore etc.."?



Because some people look at Berserk and think all Seinen are like that.


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## Batman (Mar 2, 2008)

Aethos said:


> Because some people look at Berserk and think all Seinen are like that.



They're not?:amazed

Actually I'm getting into Vinland Saga. It's just a well told story, and despite the fact it takes place during times of war, the violence isn't overstated like in berserk. In fact the few times that gore because the feature of a panel, it's almost like a hi-light of the over all page.


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## Taleran (Mar 2, 2008)

Zephos said:


> I agree with this strongly, people don't seem to get that. My Dog Skip is more mature than Scream for instance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I agree with both of these


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## AbnormallyNormal (Mar 2, 2008)

seinen is better since i'm 26


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## Taleran (Mar 2, 2008)

AbnormallyNormal said:


> seinen is better since i'm 26



FUCKING LOL (yet at the same time collective *sigh*)


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## Luciferxxxxx (Mar 2, 2008)

there is nothing wrong with boobies lol


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## Ennoea (Mar 2, 2008)

Boobies are the devils work, they're evil I tell you


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## Luciferxxxxx (Mar 2, 2008)

yes yes women are evil


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## Amatsu (Mar 2, 2008)

Reading Seinen obviously makes you a more mature adult than reading shounen despite that no matter what you're reading. You're still reading comic books aimed at teenagers.


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## Taleran (Mar 2, 2008)

Aethos said:


> Reading Seinen obviously makes you a more mature adult than reading shounen despite that no matter what you're reading. You're still reading comic books aimed at teenagers.



late teens to early twenties more like, Berserk is wrapped in Plastic in chapters and has that Mature rating like R rated films, doesn't change the fact that deciding what you read / watch based on your age is incredibly foolish


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## Amatsu (Mar 2, 2008)

Taleran said:


> late teens to early twenties more like, *Berserk is wrapped in Plastic* in chapters and has that Mature rating like R rated films, doesn't change the fact that deciding what you read / watch based on your age is incredibly foolish



Meh so is Negima...

But I get what you mean, and I do agree with that. I mean thinking that an entire genre is better than another just because it makes you feel more grown up is rather dumb all in all.


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## Zephos (Mar 2, 2008)

CrimemasterGogo said:


> Lets not go too far, Senien aren't really known for their comedy moments and Bleach just isn't funny.



Dosen't matter if they're not known for it, they have it.
Vagabond and Berserk, especially Berserk, have it in spades.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Mar 3, 2008)

~Shin~ said:


> Why do people assume that seinen automatically includes superfluous "boobs, blood, gore etc.."?



Probably the same reason why people are also making huge generalizations about Shounen too. The very basis of this thread is asking you to make generalizations or else you can't judge between to diverse groups. Personally I think its stupid to do so, but thats what the thread is asking for because anyone who says one is better then the other is doing just that.


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## Batman (Mar 3, 2008)

Scorpio3.14 said:


> Probably the same reason why people are also making huge generalizations about Shounen too. The very basis of this thread is asking you to make generalizations or else you can't judge between to diverse groups. Personally I think its stupid to do so, but thats what the thread is asking for because anyone who says one is better then the other is doing just that.



Well lets be real, most of the _popular_ seinen's DO feature gore, and or boobies in some fashion. Both if they can get away with it.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Mar 3, 2008)

Batman said:


> Well lets be real, most of the _popular_ seinen's DO feature gore, and or boobies in some fashion. Both if they can get away with it.



Oh no, I'm not disagreeing with that notion at all. In fact, personally, that is my problem with a lot of seinen, I think they over use gore and sex (and often times both at the same time) just for shock value and to try make it more "mature" without putting in a lot of effort. That is probably why some of my favorite seinen's are one's that arn't like that.

However, I'm just saying you can't judge an entire group just because a lot of them share a common feature because not all of them do. Thats why I will say _on average_ I like shounen more, but also some of my favorite series of all time are seinens so I'm not going to say one is inherently better then the other.


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## Amatsu (Mar 3, 2008)

Why read a series for boobs or gore anyways? That's rather shallow I think. I mean shouldn't you be reading something for the plot and characters?


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## KuwabaraTheMan (Mar 3, 2008)

Seinen and Shounen are just demographics. (For the people who said it, they aren't even genres. Genre refers to the actual theme, story and setting.)

There is good and bad seinen, and good and bad shounen.

To claim that one is instinctively better than the other is just silly. Maybe you prefer seinen more often than shounen, but that doesn't mean that it is outright better. And vice versa.

We're dealing with demographics on an extremely large scale here, after all.

Personally, I enjoy stories from both genres. And I can tell you one thing. Blood, gore and boobs are the last thing I look for in a series. Not saying they turn me off, but I care about the story and the characters. That's what makes or breaks it for me.


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## AbnormallyNormal (Mar 3, 2008)

i like seinen more generally just because it has more possibilities, but sometimes i feel like a seinen author is almost just making it excessively pornographic/violent just for its own sake, not because a story requires it. but a lot of times its obvious in a shonen story that there needs less censorship, so in general more freedom is better


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## Kunkka (Aug 30, 2011)

When I read the word seinen the word tits and gore come to mind. 

I never really understood why people assume just because it's mature it's better than any shonen genre can offer.


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## Pseudo (Aug 30, 2011)

I don't know but folks have been telling me to check Seinen.


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## typhoon72 (Aug 30, 2011)

Its my opinion, but I never got how people thought seinen art was better than shonen art. Obviously, you cant just generalize a whole demographic of books saying one has good art and the other has bad but you know what I mean. More realistic doesnt equal better.

The art is usually the reason I cant read seinen. Vagabond is probably the only one where I like the art through and through, but the female faces in Sun Ken are putrid. I don't really like the character designs of Angyo Onshi either (except for the main), but I still read it.


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## Pseudo (Aug 30, 2011)

I just noticed!:rofl


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 30, 2011)

This thread did not need a necro. There is no general rule,one is better than the other. It depends on the writer/mangaka who is writing the story, which applies to a lot of fiction.


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2011)

Kunkka said:


> When I read the word seinen the word tits and gore come to mind.
> 
> I never really understood why people assume just because it's mature it's better than any shonen genre can offer.



epic thread revival


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## Mizura (Aug 30, 2011)

Contrary to what some of you say, this is Not just a matter of generalisation or personal preference. While not all Seinen are better than all Shounen, I Would say you'll find a lot more potential in Seinen than in Shounen.

Because Shounen manga in general have recently been trapped into formulas. It's like Hollywood action movies. In the majority of titles, you'll find:
- a kid/teenager protagonist, often a Goku-copy or some punk. Or, in the case of romance, some loser.
- over-used themes that get often unconvincingly developed, because the author is just applying some formulas.
- power-ups (in terms of abilities or getting new harem girls)
- mostly predictable happy endings.
- etc.

Yes, I'm saying majority, because although there are unusual Shounen manga out there, if you pick up one of the masses of barely-known Shounen out there, they'll usually fit into some very definite formula.

There are a lot of formulaic Seinen too, but still as a whole the "genre" is still more "daring" than the Shounen genre has become. It's less afraid of unconventional protagonists, and rather than follow formulas, they're more likely to deeply explore a theme that the author cares about (disabled people in Real, more realistic historical stuff, etc.). Shounen, in an effort to be all-appealing, and because it's increasingly written by young people with no life experience doing nothing but making poor copies of Shounen manga They've read when they were young, tend to become pretty empty.

I mean, take Naruto. It's far from ideal, but it's been running for over 10 years. Then there's One Piece, HxH and a bunch of others. These series have their share of criticism, but in these 10 years, how many Shounen even managed to create worlds as extensive as theirs? There's Toriko recently. And then, maybe a handful of others. That's not a lot of contenders. I can't think of a decent recent Shounen romance manga either. I enjoy The World Only God Knows, but that's a parody, really.

You see the very same problem with Shoujo. There are a few interesting ones, but in general:
- Main protagonist is a stupid girl
- She'll have two hot elite guys after her
- Obligatory scenes include the tripping, bullying, revisions for test and amusement park scenes

The above are often made of cardboard characters stuffed into ready-made roles. No depths, no complex relationships (besides lust) at all. Where are the parents? What are the friends doing? Doesn't the girl have anything else to do besides worrying about the guys (hobbies, studies, future aspirations that are mentioned for more than aesthetic purposes)? By contrast, josei manga are much more willing to explore complex relationships, ranging from the sweet to the fucked-up. They're much more willing to use outside elements such as jobs etc.

I think it's a combination of "who's drawing these new manga" (young kids with no life experience who after reading a few Shounen and Shoujo, decided that they're cool and that they wanted to draw something "just like that"), and an industry that seems to cling to formulas (like Hollywood action movies, minus the ever-improving special-effects) instead of being more daring. Look at Jump. It's going to have a seriously hard time "replacing" the older series once they've finished.


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## Kunkka (Aug 30, 2011)

I just don't want to make a new thread : (

And people here seems to hate shonen


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Its not that people hate Shounen. its basically that seinen, being for adults, is able to close the gaps to be about anything really. It can make any story it wants to, whether that means being closer to a shounen or a shoujou with maturity for the reader on top.

It doesn't have to stick to the generic formula that Shounen and Shoujou have established for themselves to carve out readers, because the demographic is not treated like idiots by the suits who pump it out for them


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## hadou (Aug 30, 2011)

The main difference between both genres is that the plots in seinen manga are more realistic and mature. For example, Shin Angyo Onshi is a fantasy series, but it is also a seinen work because it dwells into mature and real plots. I agree with many of the posts in this thread: once you read a shounen series, you have read all of them. The same can not be said about seinen.


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## Kunkka (Aug 30, 2011)

hadou said:


> The main difference between both genres is that the plots in seinen manga are more realistic and mature. For example, Shin Angyo Onshi is a fantasy series, but it is also a seinen work because it dwells into mature and real plots. I agree with many of the posts in this thread: once you read a shounen series, you have read all of them. The same can not be said about seinen.



so being mature means greater quality?  @__@


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## hadou (Aug 30, 2011)

Kunkka said:


> so being mature means greater quality?  @__@



Better quality in terms of reading. Like many posts in this thread have mentioned, seinen series are better literary works than shounen series because seinen dwells on the real and mature side of life, even though many seinen series are also fantasy works.


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## typhoon72 (Aug 30, 2011)

hadou said:


> The main difference between both genres is that the plots in seinen manga are more realistic and mature. For example, Shin Angyo Onshi is a fantasy series, but it is also a seinen work because it dwells into mature and real plots. I agree with many of the posts in this thread: *once you read a shounen series, you have read all of them. *The same can not be said about seinen.



Too much generalization in this post.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

True, but the fact remains that shounen's usually stick to certain formula that are copied over and over, Absurd training arcs and crazy power ups and tournament battles being only 3 examples. One starts to see a trend in works attributed to the demographic.


That's why its a breath of fresh air to see works that are much closer to seinen in the shounen genre. Chrno Crusade and Claymore being two examples


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## MrCinos (Aug 30, 2011)

In general, Seinen > Shounen easily. For the sole fact that there are much more quality seinens than shounens. 10 to 1 even (not much of a hyperbole). I can name hundreds of good seinens deserving 7.5-8+/10 while there maybe 30-40+ shounens with such personal ratings of mine.


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## Dream Brother (Aug 30, 2011)

Here we go again...

At this point I'd actually be more interested in discussing Shoujo and Josei, which I barely know anything about. I've always wondered why I've never been able to find a series that I love in those demographics...the only one I've come across that I've liked is _Cat Street_, and that still wasn't great or anything. _The Rose of Versailles_ looks like it could be interesting, but there doesn't seem to be much translated material around.


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## Hatifnatten (Aug 30, 2011)

Dream Brother said:


> Here we go again...
> 
> At this point I'd actually be more interested in discussing Shoujo and Josei


What he said.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 30, 2011)

hadou said:


> The main difference between both genres is that the plots in seinen manga are more realistic and mature. For example, Shin Angyo Onshi is a fantasy series, but it is also a seinen work because it dwells into mature and real plots. I agree with many of the posts in this thread: once you read a shounen series, you have read all of them. *The same can not be said about seinen*.



Blood,tits,gore,sex,cursing and rape.See? I can generalise, Shonen is a demographic much like Seinen. They could give Bleach or Naruto lots of sex, more blood and more Gore and the only thing that changes is it's now classified as Seinen.

Even going outside japan, mature rated stuff can be pure garbage and basically porn. Lion King would be aimed at Shonen, don't think it's inferior to Hostel(2005 film). Infact I'd say lightyears better than that shit.

How does being aimed at kids or not restrict the author from exploring other concepts?Final Fantasy VI was not rated mature but dealt with suicide,war and teen pregnancy as some of the themes. Maybe certain things/issues like rape but the author can still make a good story, explore important issues and do good world building.

How does the demographic a work is aimed at suddenly allow one to generalise which works aimed at a particulargroup are better on average? There's plenty of bad Seinen out there if you do your research. Unless someone can give proof that no of bad works in one demographic outweigh the other, you can't generalise.


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## Teach (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm so mature, I only watch and read Seinen. I like mature manga for mature people like me.

What does shounen have? That's right, nothing. People say it can be funny, but how can it be funny when it's meant for kids? There's no mature humour for me in shounen.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Well with Shoujou its the same thing aint it(from the 50 or so shoujou i've actually read anyway) its come down to encompassing a very small box of ideas, similar to shounen. What do we have?  Shounen-ai/Shoujou-ai, Magical girls, romantic hexagonal subplots, sometimes all three?

These demographics don't give themselves any room to grow because they stick to what's marketable they think for girls and boys. They don't think outside the box.


Its not about Seinen being mature manga, its about mature ideas for people who are old enough to actually process it and take it into account.

You'd never see something like *Baby Leaf* in a Shounen or Shoujou, because it would not make sense to kids. Its not about blood or gore, because it has none, its about adult ideas


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## Basilikos (Aug 30, 2011)

Some seinen are good, some are bad. 

Some shounen are good, some are bad.

/thread


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Basilikos said:


> Some seinen are good, some are bad.
> 
> Some shounen are good, some are bad.
> 
> /thread



Well that's pretty obvious personally  what actually is taking place in this thread is why certain people prefer Seinen to Shounen, its all opinion in the end of course


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## Kirito (Aug 30, 2011)

K-On is seinen. Think what you will.


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## 8 (Aug 30, 2011)

Teach said:


> I'm so mature, I only watch and read Seinen. I like mature manga for mature people like me.
> 
> What does shounen have? That's right, nothing. People say it can be funny, but how can it be funny when it's meant for kids? There's no mature humour for me in shounen.


exactly! whenever i see shonen bashing and generalizing this is how their posts translate to me. they come across as bunch of adolescent teens desperately trying to look mature.


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## gumby2ms (Aug 30, 2011)

Usually yes, very true

 but they can make pointless smut to counter generic shounen leaving you at about equal. 

But of what I like, my favorite stuff is all seinin. Mature thought is usually the deciding factor.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Kirito said:


> K-On is seinen. Think what you will.



Of course men watch K-on!  Creepy...perverted men with a taste for moe highschoolers eating cakes and playing the gee-tar 

No wonder Miku and Touhou are so popular


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## Geralt of Rivia (Aug 30, 2011)

Those shows are just hentai-fodder.


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## Basilikos (Aug 30, 2011)

Inuhanyou said:


> No wonder Miku and Touhou are so popular


Lol wut :sanji



Geralt of Rivia said:


> Those shows are just hentai-fodder.


Anything that becomes popular is hentai-fodder apparently.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Basilikos said:


> Lol wut :sanji



You know.....



> Anything that becomes popular is hentai-fodder apparently.



Rule 34


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## Blinky (Aug 30, 2011)

I like seinen


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## Blinky (Aug 30, 2011)

it's like cool and stuff 

Not sure why people are all made over demographics


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## Hatifnatten (Aug 30, 2011)

Now I see why this thread died and was forgotten.


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## God Movement (Aug 30, 2011)

I'm a shounen type of guy


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## PDQ (Aug 30, 2011)

It's almost like comparing Rated R movies with PG-13 movies.  To some degree it allows you to explore more psychological/philosophical themes with nuanced treatment, the worst of Seinen is just as crappy as the worst of Shonen.  That being said, film ratings are technically more censorship oriented while Seinen is about intended audience, G rated movies may be apt to avoid complex issues(or include them as a Parental Bonus)

It's like the difference between saying a drink is "adult" because it has alcohol(what's common in restaurants) or saying a drink is adult because it has a complex unfamiliar aroma without much sweetness that requires an acquired taste to enjoy without going for the easy broad appeal.  Seinen can have both ends: on the one hand sex, gore, and "darker and edgier"/"grittier" styles, and on the other, complex and intricate themes with nuanced treatments that push whatever genre it's in forward.

And *even if* you have a drink that's complex, uncommon, and nuanced, that doesn't mean it's inherently better than a simple well balanced lemonade.  Each appeals to a different audience.  Sometimes, I watch a show/read a series for escapism, other times, it's for an intellectual theory of mind exploration of topics that may be presented in unfamiliar ways.  Each can get boring if that's what you have exclusively. Intellectual/adult themes can wear you down mentally when you're looking from a break, but mindless action can be mindnumbing if you really want to delve into the subject as a matter for study or a serious hobby.
Even "good" seinen can often reflect similar undertones as film snobbery(for a good article on film snobbery, google Film Snobbery Explained).

Even ignoring at it's worst, both can be utter crap, at their best, it's the difference between "fun" and "interesting".  Naruto is fun relatively basic shounen action series to read, while Puella Magi Madoka Magica is an interesting deconstruction of the magical girl genre.  Naruto has a much wider appeal and I would recommend it to an average person, while PMMM I'd only recommend to someone who's looking for how genre pushing anime can be or otherwise a film snob.


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## MdB (Aug 30, 2011)

I like both, but I prefer seinen manga since adult target demographics aren't painted in the same broad strokes as shounen audiences, leaving more room for experimentation. The other reason for my preference is that mature stories aren't obligated to dumb down complex subject matter or challenging questions without losing nuance and subtlety, or merely presenting it as an afterthought.

On the other hand, you also have immature drivel such as Wolf Guy, which is best discribed as SEX RAPE GORE VIOLENCE BLOOD SO COOL AND EDGY.


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## HolyDemon (Aug 30, 2011)

If it's gag, shounen > seinen. Otherwise, shounen tend to fall into the manhole of taking itself too serious when it has never been designed to be serious. Gag assures that the author will *never* try to to make it serious. (btw I won't recognize Hitman Reborn as gag )

Seinen is generally better, mainly because of its broader topics, due to its audience's higher tolerance of things. A lot of seinen reads just like a shounen with nudity/gore elements, though that's not necessarily a bad thing


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## PDQ (Aug 30, 2011)

Intellectual quality/Depth isn't inherently superior to the opposite, simple and straightforward.  It's harder and more experimental, granted, but it's really for different audiences(both people and mood).  I guess if difficulty makes things better, then sure, but that's not necessarily a given.

Difficulty reflects skill, which can reflect a better artist, but not necessarily better art.  It's like in figure skating, just because you pull off the most difficult moves, you don't necessarily win because it's not necessarily better artistically.  You can overcomplicate things.  And ultimately once you pick your audience, your goal should be maximizing appreciation by your audience.  A shounen audience might not appreciate complex themes but they'll appreciate well crafted fight scenes, while a seinen artist might have horrible fight scenes visually but very symbolic ones.  A shounen work that does what they're aiming for well is better than a seinen work that tries to handle complex subject matter poorly.

Sincerity may give way to deconstruction and irony, but ultimately, deconstruction and irony will give way to nuanced sincerity and reconstruction with an appreciation gained from the intermediate stage.  Who knows, maybe they'll oscillate back and for forever or find a third option.


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

What a nice conversation, now we're getting to actual substance


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## Inuhanyou (Aug 30, 2011)

Also,



MdB said:


> On the other hand, you also have immature drivel such as Wolf Guy, which is best discribed as SEX RAPE GORE VIOLENCE BLOOD SO COOL AND EDGY.



HSOTD 

well, atleast it doesn't pretend to be smart


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## Fran (Aug 30, 2011)

Everyone repeating the same points over and over with varying degrees of TL;DR.


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## HolyDemon (Aug 30, 2011)

Fran said:


> Everyone repeating the same points over and over with varying degrees of TL;DR.



People like to do the same thing over and over again, which kinda explain the seemingly formulaic pattern of manga (and probably everything else, like the economy  ).


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## Samavarti (Aug 30, 2011)

I personally prefer Seinien because it allows to authors more liberties, obviously this dosen't mean than all seinien are better than Shounen there are a lot of shitty seinien like HOTD, or Gantz as well that there are a lot of great Shounens like Hoshi No Samidare or FMA, but as overall i think seinien is better.


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## Mizura (Aug 30, 2011)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Blood,tits,gore,sex,cursing and rape.


Nope. Seinen has those, but unlike Shounen, it also has a lot of stuff Outside of the box:
- REAL: the real life of wheelchair basketball players.
- Team Medical Dragon: practices and corruption in the medical field (many of which are real problems)
- Saint Onii-san: Jesus and Buddha sitting in a tree, um... stuff.
- Arakawa under the bridge: plain weirdness
- Great Teacher Onizuka: this actually addresses real social issues in Japan, like the divide between parents and kids, society looking down on its young people etc.
- Liar Game: psychological games.
- Family compo: not sure what it's called... transgender families? (well, the uncle is actually the aunt and vice-versa, and it's got real social implications)
- Monster: protagonist is a middle-aged doctor.
- Plain weird stuff: Leviathan (actually a supernatural view of immigration), Dorohedoro (not sure what to make of it)
- Oyasumi Punpun: slice of life has never appeared so supernatural without being so.
- Spice and Wolf: merchant manga.
- I remember this seinen manga about an aged man with terminal cancer who decides to find the his daughter's murderer before the case passes its expiration date.

Shounen has a few out-of-the-box weird psychological thrillers like Death Note. But Seinen has Liar Game, Higurashi no Naku Koro Ni and its sequel Umineko no Naku Koro Ni, Lost + Brain, Mirai Nikki, etc. (by the way, the team that did Death Note is more or less the same that did Hikaru no Go and Bakuman, it seems to be one of the few unconventional teams for Shounen out there...)

Shounen has a few profession-based manga that seriously uses elements in said profession (instead of just skimming over it) like Yakitate Ja-pan (in the sense that it uses real recipes), and Hikaru no Go (except all the board game mangas since have tended to be Seinen), but Seinen has Bambino (restaurant), Addicted to Curry (curry), Bartender (bars), Kami no Shizuku (wine), Sommelier (wine), etc. For stuff outside of food, there's dance (Dance! Subaru and its sequel), sales (Spice and Wolf, as said, there's also a so-so series about 7-Eleven), Team Medical Dragon (medical) and there's another one whose name I forgot, Akagi (mah-jong), I remember another one about that game where you recite poems and have to find the corresponding card as fast as possible...

When Seinen does shounen-like action manga, it is more likely to portray the world and the protagonist itself in terms of grey instead of black and white (Naruto). It is also more likely to have unconventional protagonists (middle-aged men in 20th Century Boys, Monster etc.), rather than just young people (it has those too. But it doesn't only have those).

Basically, save for a few high-profile exceptions (who do well precisely because they break the mold), Shounen is much more likely to follow formulas, both in characters, themes or plots. Seinen is much more likely to find more to talk about by making use of real professions, less idealized relationships, grittier historical or fantasy despictions etc.

More and more, it seems to me that manga authors have given up on the Shounen genre to tell something really original, and just head to Seinen instead. Iris Zero could easily have passed for a Shounen, but somehow it's Seinen. You could say Shounen has become really sanitized. Bakuman briefly mentions something like this: their "Money and Intelligence" manga, despite how much praise it gets, was considered too high-level for Shounen, so they had to do something else. And once they were doing something else, they had to worry about judgemental parents and couldn't push things as far as they'd want to.

(apologies for not mentioning some big categories like Berserk, Vagabond, Gantz, Blade of the Immortal etc. I don't read them so I can't comment on them.  Still, I do know that compared to Shounen, they're less black and white and formulaic).

And by the way, it is Perfectly legitimate to differentiate Shounen and Seinen even though they're supposedly just demographics, because the industry itself treats them as genres. When a guy shows up wanting to write a Shounen manga, the people in the industry will automatically impose a series of norms and tendencies on it.


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## HolyDemon (Aug 30, 2011)

Mizura said:


> - Saint Onii-san: Jesus and Buddha sitting in a tree, um... stuff.
> - Arakawa under the bridge: plain weirdness



Frankly, I'd recommend children to read those 2 manga, to learn about peaceful cohabitation of people with different ideals and values. They may be weird, but they show how to accept and befriend people with conflicting perspectives, something this world still hasn't been able to. 

On the other hand, I don't think I'd ever let my children touch a majority of shounen (especially fighting shounen) until their 18s. 

Sometimes, I feel the demographic classification is really misleading, especially when it allows works that depicts extremely painful violence like something cool and just. For the record, electrocuting, multiple simultaneous mutilation, high-degree burning are some of the cruelest method of torture, and we see them parading around in all the best-selling shounen. 

Not to mention, showing young kids that the world is always black and white, and that black must be violently exterminated is practically teaching them violent discrimination... And forcing others to change their ideals through extreme violence (think Naruto's beat-'em-up-then-talk-'em-down no jutsu - the redemption theme) is as far from right as you can get..


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## Mizura (Aug 30, 2011)

HolyDemon said:


> Frankly, I'd recommend children to read those 2 manga, to learn about peaceful cohabitation of people with different ideals and values.


It's strange, really. The really peaceful or the really violent tend to be Seinen. Chii's Sweet Home (a cute series from a cat's POV) and Ryu-shika Ryu-shika (the world through a very young and imaginative girl's POV) are also Seinen.

As I said, there is more "out of the box" in Seinen than in Shounen. In its pursuit of appealing to teenage boys through coolness, Shounen establishments have locked out a lot of genres. Seinen writers don't assume that adults only read one or two types of manga.


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## Darth Nihilus (Aug 30, 2011)

>Arakawa Under the Bridge

Someone knows quality when they see it


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## p-lou (Aug 30, 2011)

r rated movies > pg rated movies


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## PDQ (Aug 31, 2011)

Mizura said:


> Nope. Seinen has those, but unlike Shounen, it also has a lot of stuff Outside of the box:
> - REAL: the real life of wheelchair basketball players.
> - Team Medical Dragon: practices and corruption in the medical field (many of which are real problems)
> - Saint Onii-san: Jesus and Buddha sitting in a tree, um... stuff.
> ...


The question is whether that's necessarily "better".
I would characterize it as such:
Shounen is better for escapism while Seinen explores reality.  As a result, in a sense Seinen is known for deconstructing tropes from Shounen genres.  However, Shounen can also reconstruct tropes based on how they've been deconstructed in Seinen.


> And by the way, it is Perfectly legitimate to differentiate Shounen and Seinen even though they're supposedly just demographics, because the industry itself treats them as genres. When a guy shows up wanting to write a Shounen manga, the people in the industry will automatically impose a series of norms and tendencies on it.


I would say Shounen is somewhat in the same ghetto as cartoons are in the US(although in the US, the notion of an "adult cartoon" is unfathomable to some), where it could potentially be seen as repelling people with "real talent", but it's not an inherent feature of Shounen in of itself, just some major companies.  In a sense, the reason Seinen seems like they have more room to explore is because Shounen is considered more mainstream and Seinen is indie.  An indie Shounen production is hidden away from all the mainstream.  Reconstructing tropes takes just as much talent as deconstructing them, because it requires a nuanced appreciation of them in light of the deconstruction, even if they superficially seem the same as the pre-deconstructed trope.
This has some good examples of how Shounen can be just as good as Seinen:


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## Smoke (Aug 31, 2011)

I greatly enjoy seinen, over shounen.



Like Mizura said, seinen has such a plethora of genres within it. Shounen for the most part, tend to follow the same stuff. 


Some of the stuff I love, is seinen. And totally different from each other.


*Gantz* (totally sci-fi)
*B gata h kei* (4 koma about everyday life about a 15 yr old girl trying to lose her virginity)
*Umi no misaki* (Island life with 3 horny girls)
*Sun-ken rock* (FUCKING BADASS )
*Vinland saga* (vikings and farms)
*xxx holic* (clamp)
*nononono* (15 yr old tits and ski jumping)
*holy land* (street fighting life)
*Sundome* (ecchi girls and guys' puberty)
*My girl Sahara* (single father)
*nana to kaoru* (high school and s&m)

I'm leaving out so many, but yea.


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## Mizura (Aug 31, 2011)

PDQ said:


> The question is whether that's necessarily "better".
> I would characterize it as such:
> Shounen is better for escapism while Seinen explores reality.


Wow, that is So false.  There's plenty of escapist Seinen too. I just didn't mention them (SAO and a lot of other fantasy Seinen). 



> but it's not an inherent feature of Shounen in of itself, just some major companies.


That's the same thing I'm saying, but I'm saying that the tendency is too big to simply dismiss as exceptions to ignore. Shounen has become fast food, just because it does offer the occasional salad it's still in general unhealthier than mainstream restaurants (which also have unhealthy food, but you'll be more likely to find healthy food too). Fatty food isn't an inheritent trait of fast food restaurants, in theory it's possible to have healthy fast food, but in reality that's generally not the case and it'd be silly to dimiss criticism against fast food in general because of that.

Um... what? (that link might be more helpful if I actually knew what half the titles there were, and besides that, I don't really see how it's proving how one thing is better than another, it doesn't even differentiate shounen and seinen...).

The only thing I recognize there is "20th Century Boys (a seinen) is an improvement upon kiddy cartoons."


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## HolyDemon (Aug 31, 2011)

PDQ said:


> This has some good examples of how Shounen can be just as good as Seinen:



The 2 only shounen I saw in manga examples were Eureka Seven and Cross Game. Eureka Seven was an anime before a shonen, as the manga was disappointingly short and somewhat rushed. Cross game was good, though it reads more like a combination of classic shounen, shoujo and seinen. (Some of Adachi's other works even incorporate josei's element)



Mizura said:


> It's strange, really. The really peaceful or the really violent tend to be Seinen. Chii's Sweet Home (a cute series from a cat's POV) and Ryu-shika Ryu-shika (the world through a very young and imaginative girl's POV) are also Seinen.



It's not that hard to imagine, if you think of a 70-something mangaka drawing it. An innoncent pantyshot might easily give him a heart attack, lest action scenes with "energetic" blood, "friendly" yelling and "youthful" semi-nudity.

Btw, I will check out those 2 series, never heard them before :|


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## PDQ (Aug 31, 2011)

To say that all shounen is the same is to miss the leaves for the forest.  Shounen tends to focus on execution, while seinen tends to focus on concept.  They target different things.  A great work can do both, but given equal amounts of talent/effort, neither is inherently better.  In shounen, the devil is more in the details than the idea.


Mizura said:


> Wow, that is So false.  There's plenty of escapist Seinen too. I just didn't mention them (SAO and a lot of other fantasy Seinen).


Fantasy isn't always escapist.  But more to the point, the problem is the things you seem to *praise* about the premise of those series are the fact that they're deep subjects looking into the problems of the real world, not getting away from them in an idyllic scenario.  Let's see:
- REAL: the *real life* of *wheelchair* basketball players.
- Team Medical Dragon: practices and *corruption* in the medical field (many of which are *real problems*)
- Great Teacher Onizuka: this actually addresses *real social issues* in Japan, like the divide between parents and kids, society looking down on its young people etc.
It's not incidental that they're realistic, that's exactly what you go to them for.  A Japanese doctor isn't going to be able to read Team Medical Dragon to escape his frustration with the system relax, it's the exact opposite.  Even a fantasy series that deconstructs tropes into realistic logical conclusions like Puella Magi Madoka is inherently non escapist.  It actually drags someone trying to escape the horrors of the real world thorough a magical girl series back into a more realistic scenario.


> Shounen has become fast food, just because it does offer the occasional salad it's still in general unhealthier than mainstream restaurants (which also have unhealthy food, but you'll be more likely to find healthy food too). Fatty food isn't an inheritent trait of fast food restaurants, in theory it's possible to have healthy fast food, but in reality that's generally not the case and it'd be silly to dimiss criticism against fast food in general because of that.


Actually you should dismiss criticism as being misaimed at Fast food.  Applebees, Bennigans, Fridays, Ruby Tuesdays aren't significantly healthier than Mcdonalds with their rack of ribs or fried chicken tenders.  They may have a few healthy options but that's mainly because they can afford to have a bigger menu.  The problem is really the bigger the chain, the more likely they have a broad appeal, whether it's fast or slow.  That fast food is generally worse is a misconception when you normalize for size.  Fast Food happens to correlate to national chains.  Not to mention nowadays fast food restaurants like Chipotle(fast casual is just a euphemism indicating healthy fast food) are a significant part of the culture, which is mainly due to greater spreading of higher standards.

In the same way, the problem is the more mainstream a series publisher is, whether shounen or seinen, the more they shy away from experimental works.  It's just that there's not nearly as many mainstream seinen as shounen or it seems that way.  I'm not sure what'd be a good source to compare sales figures of Shounen works to Seinen works, but I think it's generally understood as a matter of principle that the more popular a work, the wider the audience it must appeal to, and thus a very mainstrem work must inherently appeal to pretty much the lowest common denominator.

And in the end, it's still fundamentally wrong or at least imprecise to make a blanket statement about shounen or seinen's inherent superiority if what you really mean mainstream Seinen Publishers put out better works than mainstream Shounen publishers. Comparing publishers is a fundamentally different question from comparing the genre/demographic.  One is a class, the other is an instantiation of the class.  If someone said Seinen publishers > Shounen publishers, that can be argued on a much less theoretical level


> I don't really see how it's proving how one thing is better than another, it doesn't even differentiate shounen and seinen...).


I just mean there's good examples of what Shounen can do with established tropes in a reconstructed way, which shows the level of artistry and intellectual depth that can be included in there.


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## Mizura (Aug 31, 2011)

> To say that all shounen is the same is to miss the leaves for the forest.


Did I say that? I didn't say that. I'm saying you're more likely to find fruits and mushrooms in Seinen than Shounen.



> Shounen tends to focus on execution, while seinen tends to focus on concept.


That's false, man.  How is SAO for example inferior in art, character design and plot for example?



> Fantasy isn't always escapist.
> 
> But more to the point, the problem is the things you seem to praise about the premise of those series are the fact that they're deep subjects looking into the problems of the real world, not getting away from them in an idyllic scenario.


No, I was naming those to say that there's *more out of the box stuff going on in Seinen.* If you want "in-the-box" stuff, there's plenty of that too. Stuff like Bastard! most certainly is escapist no matter how you look at it.  The most interesting harem (for guys) that I've come across so far are also Seinen.



> Even a fantasy series that deconstructs tropes into realistic logical conclusions like Puella Magi Madoka is inherently non escapist.


You seem to mistake "escapist" with "happy happy yay yay." Horror and gore and sex and violence can be plenty escapist.



> Actually you should dismiss criticism as being misaimed at Fast food. Applebees, Bennigans, Fridays, Ruby Tuesdays aren't significantly healthier than Mcdonalds with their rack of ribs or fried chicken tenders.


Uh, you'll find more healthy restaurant options than healthy fast food options. Organic and vegetarian restaurants, for example. Similarly, I can say with confidence that there's better French or Chinese cuisine around than English cuisine. Not to say that there aren't good English restaurants, but in general, French or Chinese culinary culture are more developed. 

Look, you keep accusing me of missing the leaves for the Forest. I'm saying some forests have more stuff going on in them than others. The rainforest will have more critters in there and be generally more interesting than the average artificial park forest in the middle of a city.



			
				Mizura said:
			
		

> *While not all Seinen are better than all Shounen, I Would say you'll find a lot more potential in Seinen than in Shounen.
> 
> Because Shounen manga in general have recently been trapped into formulas.*


^ See? That's what I'm saying. Not that all Seinen are better than more Shounen, not that all normal restaurants are healthier than fast food restaurants. But in general, you'll be more likely to find potential in the Seinen genre than the Shounen genre. You're more likely to find health food among normal restaurants than in the average fast food joint.

There's more stuff going on in Seinen, more unconventional stuff going on in Seinen, and when they're ongoing, they are often no inferior in execution to Shounen equivalents (the last time I cared for Naruto, One Piece or Bleach's executions was looooong ago).



> I just mean there's good examples of what Shounen can do with established tropes in a reconstructed way


I have no idea what this reconstruction trope theory is, but as far as I can tell the link showed me nada.


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## HolyDemon (Aug 31, 2011)

Mizura said:


> Uh, you'll find more healthy restaurant options than healthy fast food options. Organic and vegetarian restaurants, for example. Similarly, I can say with confidence that there's better French or Chinese cuisine around than English cuisine. Not to say that there aren't good English restaurants, but in general, French or Chinese culinary culture are more developed.
> 
> Look, you keep accusing me of missing the leaves for the Forest. I'm saying some forests have more stuff going on in them than others. The rainforest will have more critters in there and be generally more interesting than the average artificial park forest in the middle of a city.



I'm not accusing you of anything, but sometimes it's just a matter of taste, ie. what you would consider interesting in a forest. An artificial park may not be as lively, but it has people which one can socialize with, and to some, might be more fun to hang around than a strange, humid rainforest.

Take me for example. I like gag, and I end up finding shonen gag more enjoyable than seinen, simply because shonen is *dumber* than seinen. I'd prefer to not worry about existentialism, religion, social integrity, etc... when I read my gags. I'd rather save my brainpower for something directly related to my work, than to worry about some issues that I'm sure wouldn't be resolved in my generation, or the next. (you may call my attitude "escapist" - the "happy go yay yay" kind, not like it matters to the world's affair anyway) Now I'm appearing hypocrite as well, for putting so much effort into this text...

Back to the restaurant analogy, you're biased at assuming that a good restaurant must serve healthy food. Airline eatery, for instance, caters for a very diverse clients, serves *very* healthy and balanced food, and is known for making some of the world's most tasteless dishes. 

On the other hand, if you use spiciness as criteria for "good", fast food would gain the upper hand, and a lot of dirty, hot and oily "street food" would outdo many conventional contenders.

And we all know that money tastes like shit, so let's not there and vote for the bank xD

Of course, you can just stitch the "this is just my subjective, selfish and very biased opinion" brand, which essentially wouldn't give your voice any more credit than that of a 10 year-old, but simpathy from those who share your taste. 

Anyway, just keep up with your recommendation, I really like this Ryu-shika Ryu-shika and your taste, overall


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## Spirit King (Aug 31, 2011)

This is like arguing which is better a book meant for children or a book meant for adults. The answer is always the same. It's not about the genre or the demographic it's about the author and how deeply he chooses to delve into a specific concept and how well he is able to execute it. Many literary classics are childrens books, many even have far more depth than the vast majority of books geared at adults e.g Lord of the flies, Animal farm etc.

I think something many people miss when they think books geared at children are generally inferior to those geared at adults is that books geared at children are often created to teach important life lessons, which a child my build upon throughout their lives whereas as many books geared at adults are simply there to relay an idea since most adults already have their own set of beliefs whereas most children don't.  

End of the day common sense dicates there is no superiority between demographics outside of those without a reasonable control of said language e.g for babies but even those have some gems.


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## Rokudaime (Aug 31, 2011)

Seinen manga is always fun to read. Most likely because it actually adds some reality element. The only drawback of seinen manga is it is monthly release. Waiting for next chapter can be a hell, especially when the previous chapter ended with cliffhanger.


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## αshɘs (Aug 31, 2011)

^ demographic doesn't determine the release schedule. There are weekly seinen magazines out there.


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