# JJ Madara vs BPS Sasuke



## Hellblade (Jul 6, 2021)

Knowledge: Manga
IC
500m


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## dabi (Jul 6, 2021)

GG

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Disagree 2 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

dabi said:


> GG


This, dear reader, is a kid who saw a cool instagram pic, and spams it because he thinks it's popular to do so.

The Story makes it clear that Dual Rinnegan Madara is already = Prime Hagoromo, who is >>>> Sasuke, who only has 50% of Ghost Hagoromo's power.

As well, Madara's Rinnegan are so almighty that Obito could only wield one and almost lost himself, while Sasuke's Rinnegan is so pathetic that Kakashi would have been able to use one to end Infinite Tsukuyomi.

This is a murder god stomp in favour of Madara.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## dabi (Jul 6, 2021)

Fused said:


> The Story makes it clear that Dual Rinnegan Madara is already = Prime Hagoromo


By feats he isn't.

By feats, 50% of Hags is already >> than Madara.

How does Madara beat Sasuke?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

dabi said:


> By feats he isn't.
> 
> By feats, 50% of Hags is already >> than Madara.
> 
> How does Madara beat Sasuke?


Feats are irrelevant.

Kishimoto drew Sasuke bisecting Madara because he wanted to wank Sasuke and satisfy the Sasuke fangirls. It is a meaningless argument.

By statements we know, as per Hagoromo's own admission, that Madara with just one Rinnegan was getting close to him. Meaning that with two Rinnegan, stated to have granted him a tremendous boost in power (as the original owner), he has closed the gap completely.

Madara is equal to Hagoromo himself, as the Second Sage of the Six Paths. Sasuke is a Zoomer and is out of place here.

How does Madara beat Sasuke? By ganging up on him with Limbo. Sasuke can only see Limbo, but as he lacks Six Paths Senjutsu, he cannot interact with it.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 6, 2021)

Madara gets negged

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 3


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## dabi (Jul 6, 2021)

Fused said:


> Feats are irrelevant.


Not in debating they aren’t.

And not in the NBD they aren’t.

You can go to YT or Instagram and debate there if you want since they look at statements. 


Fused said:


> Kishimoto drew Sasuke bisecting Madara because he wanted to wank Sasuke and satisfy the Sasuke fangirls. It is a meaningless argument.


Why can’t we say Kishimoto said that Madara was equal to Hagoromo to wank Madara and satisfy Madara fingirla like you in that case?



Fused said:


> By statements we know, as per Hagoromo's own admission, that Madara with just one Rinnegan was getting close to him. Meaning that with two Rinnegan, stated to have granted him a tremendous boost in power (as the original owner), he has closed the gap completely.


Based on what?

How do you know he closed the gap completely?


Fused said:


> Madara is equal to Hagoromo himself, as the Second Sage of the Six Paths. Sasuke is a Zoomer and is out of place here.


Ultimately Madara was getting his ass kicked in the fight against Sasuke and Naruto individually. He’s not even close to Hags power.


Fused said:


> How does Madara beat Sasuke? By ganging up on him with Limbo. Sasuke can only see Limbo, but as he lacks Six Paths Senjutsu, he cannot interact with it.


He doesn’t need to interact with it to win. He just blitzes the main body of Madara with his superior speed. And proceeds to slice his head in half.


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## Impulse (Jul 6, 2021)

Fused said:


> Feats are irrelevant.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

"Sasuke blitzes Madara and cuts his head off"

Never have I seen a more disgusting and deplorable thing to say in a Naruto VS Battle.

I am very disappointed in this [dead] section. The underrating of Madara here is seriously disturbing.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## dabi (Jul 6, 2021)

Fused said:


> "Sasuke blitzes Madara and cuts his head off"


He blitzed him and sliced him in half.

Why can't he do the same thing to his head?


Fused said:


> Never have I seen a more disgusting and deplorable thing to say in a Naruto VS Battle.


Most of your arguments regarding Madara are much, much, worse.   




Fused said:


> I am very disappointed in this [dead] section. The underrating of Madara here is seriously disturbing.


If you don't like this section, then like I said, go to places like YT or instagram where they use statements over feats when debating. Madara is being rated fairly here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

dabi said:


> He blitzed him and sliced him in half.
> 
> Why can't he do the same thing to his head?
> 
> ...


It should be common sense that just because character X did action Y that one time doesn't automatically mean he's stronger.


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## dergeist (Jul 6, 2021)

Madara claps the Cuck, and preta negs or TSBs erase. Or Limbos just go in for an outright stompfest. There are just too many ways Cucksuke loses.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

@Djomla Bruh does this kid only spam dislike reactions without ever talking here? Get lost.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Optimistic 1


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## ClaretteVeth (Jul 6, 2021)

dergeist said:


> Madara claps the Cuck, and preta negs or TSBs erase. Or Limbos just go in for an outright stompfest. There are just too many ways Cucksuke loses.


Tbf, the cuck one is Madara; the guy spent his youth and adulthood losing to Hashirama.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## dergeist (Jul 6, 2021)

ClaretteVeth said:


> Tbf, the cuck one is Madara; the guy spent his youth and adulthood losing to Hashirama.



No, cucksuke needed to be saved at everyturn or an asspull here or there. Even in the end he lost to Cuckruto, that makes his miserable existence doubly bad.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## ClaretteVeth (Jul 6, 2021)

dergeist said:


> No, cucksuke needed to be saved at everyturn or an asspull here or there. Even in the end he lost to Cuckruto, that makes his miserable existence doubly bad.

Reactions: Funny 3


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 6, 2021)

BPS Sasuke > AA Naruto >>> BM KB RSM Naruto >>> RSM naruto > Limbo spam 3 Eyed Madara

Sasuke molests

Reactions: Agree 2 | Dislike 1


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## MlssingNin (Jul 6, 2021)

dabi said:


> GG


What do you think of Sasuke not being able to do anything against Madara here? Just asking.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dergeist (Jul 6, 2021)

Don't remember Cucksuke soloing BZ, but I do remember him getting f'ed by BZ until Nardobro saved him


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## Onda Vital (Jul 6, 2021)

Depends on how much biju chakra Sasuke has and how it compared to juubi.

Madara should have more chakra than non AA Naruto so he should be more comparable to Sasuke.


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## Siskebabas (Jul 6, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> BPS Sasuke > AA Naruto >>> BM KB RSM Naruto >>> RSM naruto > Limbo spam 3 Eyed Madara
> 
> Sasuke molests


How is bps above aa naruto? They both one shotted each other


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## Tsukuyomi (Jul 6, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> How is bps above aa naruto? They both one shotted each other


Cause Sasuke matched Naruto's strongest attack while at an elemental Disadvantage. 
Which means his firepower is greater.
Right @WorldsStrongest

Reactions: Like 2


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## Danisor (Jul 6, 2021)

Legit though Zetsu had a heart symbol in his eye, lol.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Lewd 1


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## Siskebabas (Jul 6, 2021)

Code said:


> Cause Sasuke matched Naruto's strongest attack while at an elemental Disadvantage.
> Which means his firepower is greater.
> Right @WorldsStrongest


Wut? You think elemental wheel made any diffrence? Not to mention wind shurinken only had 50% of chakra, shit had played exactly zero role


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## Siskebabas (Jul 6, 2021)

Only way i could see bps being above aa naruto if sasuke can continually charge it


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## dabi (Jul 6, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> BPS Sasuke > AA Naruto


Didn’t Naruto beat him tho

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Fused (Jul 6, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> Wut? You think elemental wheel made any diffrence? Not to mention wind shurinken only had 50% of chakra, shit had played exactly zero role


@Code is a kid who just parrots the opinion/arguments of the "cool kids club" around here.

Reactions: Optimistic 1 | Coolest Guy! 1 | Dislike 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 6, 2021)

dabi said:


> Didn’t Naruto beat him tho


No?

They stalemate but Sasuke uses an inferior element 

Which means hes stronger overall as he overpowered his counter affinity

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 6, 2021)

Siskebabas said:


> How is bps above aa naruto? They both one shotted each other





WorldsStrongest said:


> No?
> 
> They stalemate but Sasuke uses an inferior element
> 
> Which means hes stronger overall as he overpowered his counter affinity

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ARGUS (Jul 6, 2021)

Madara takes it 

 -- his PS > BPS, one is fueled by rikudo yin, yang, SPSM, and juubi whilst the other is fueled by an inflated rikudo yin and portions of 9 bijuu chakra. Even if sasukes yin is much better than madaras yin, it still doesnt mitigate the extra buffs madara is getting from his other things as well as the fact that even pre buff, madaras PS was far stronger than sasukes. So a construct battle is meaningless for sasuke 

 -- Quad juubidama and flash juubidama > IA, and quite comfortably i may add. A V3 flash juubidama was teleported to the middle of an unknown ocean on the other side of the shinobi world and it was still felt in the battlefield. That is far above the combined VOTE clash which is twice the output of IA. So if sasuke uses this attack and pools all his chakra in it, then madara counters it with juubidama which would plow through the arrow and eradicate sasukes BPS and him along with it. Not a smart tactic to use at all. 

 -- Sasuke is getting wrecked against madara in CQC. Once madara had his second eye, he became RSM narutos equal as shown and stated in DB4. The same dude who vastly outclassed sasuke in every aspect during the kaguya fight. Couple that with the fact that madara has 4 limbos, and preta to absorb any ninjutsu and sasuke stands zero chance. 

 -- fight ends with sasuke losing the construct fight and then dying by the follow up attack which could be a PS slash, juubidama, large ST, or a stab to the chest by getting wrecked against limbos and madara since he would lose all his chakra from BPS and IA

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Raiken (Jul 6, 2021)

Prime Juudara is the 2nd or 3rd most powerful character in the Verse. He ain't getting killed by BPS Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## TheChosenOne22 (Jul 6, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> They stalemate but Sasuke uses an inferior element
> 
> Which means hes stronger overall as he overpowered his counter affinity


They still one shotted each other, which means they are still equal even if this was true

Because in the reality, the ''elemental advantage'' literally played zero role and has never been mentioned as something relevant in this clash (Kurama literally tells Naruto that what saved him was the massive amount of NE absorbed before, not because he throwed some Wind Style technique)

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 6, 2021)

TheChosenOne22 said:


> They still one shotted each other, which means they are still equal


Nah bud

It doesnt

And they dont oneshot each other

The combined force of BOTH of their attacks is what destroys their avatars


TheChosenOne22 said:


> Because in the reality, the ''elemental advantage'' literally played zero role


Nice headcanon 


TheChosenOne22 said:


> never been mentioned as something relevant


Except how Naruto and Sasuke were abusing it the entire war to amp their own attacks 


TheChosenOne22 said:


> Kurama literally tells Naruto that what saved him was the massive amount of NE absorbed before


Which doesnt challenge that he was using the superior element at all

Merely that hed have lost without it, as he came damn close to losing with it

This is not evidence against what I said at all

All this means is

BPS > AA Wind > Non AA Naruto Wind

Love to know where youre getting a contradiction here

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheChosenOne22 (Jul 6, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Except how Naruto and Sasuke were abusing it the entire war to amp their own attacks





TheChosenOne22 said:


> never been mentioned as something relevant *in this clash*



It would be cool if you didn't purposely cut the part where I specified that it wasn't relevant to the this fight in particular

When Naruto and Sasuke combined their elements against Juubi there was a whole flashback of how Naruto's element strengthened Sasuke's. In VotE2 Kurama literally says that Naruto only managed to rival BPS because he absorbed a massive amount of NE, not because of any elemental advantage (which would be irrelevant if his powers weren't similar). Hell, Naruto should have just used two FRS instead of just one to win following this logic.

That's just a stretch to put BPS > AA when the story clearly portrayed both as equals and doesn't care about any ''elemental advantage''


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 6, 2021)

TheChosenOne22 said:


> It would be cool if you didn't purposely cut the part where I specified that it wasn't relevant to the this fight


The specification is worthless

We dont need to be told that every in and out of chakra pplications and relationships is taking place in a clash dude

Like

Do you also need to be told that SHape manipulation is being combined with Nature manipulation in those attacks?

Do you need to be told yet again that when techniques use both, they are stronger than when you use either?

This is not an argument

Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence

You cannot make the claim that solely because we are not told, for the 100th time, how Fuuton interacts with other affinities, that its magically no longer a factor


TheChosenOne22 said:


> VotE2 Kurama literally says that Naruto only managed to rival BPS because he absorbed a massive amount of NE, not because of any elemental advantage





WorldsStrongest said:


> This is not evidence against what I said at all
> 
> All this means is
> 
> ...





TheChosenOne22 said:


> That's just a stretch to put BPS > AA


Nah its just blatantly superior

Thats what happens when attacks beat their superior affinities


TheChosenOne22 said:


> doesn't care about any ''elemental advantage''


According to you

Which is based on the fact that Kishi didnt facefuck you with the information and literally nothing else

Which is not an argument


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## Aegon Targaryen (Jul 6, 2021)

Sasuke destroys him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## MYGod000 (Jul 7, 2021)

Hagoromo already said Madara Absorbing the Ten tails was getting close to him. 


Obito Stated Madara's Left Rinnegan overwhelming chakra and That he almost lost himself in the Power.  he even said it was hard for him to Control that power as well. 

Madara is stomping Sasuke here.

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 2 | Dislike 1


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## blk (Jul 7, 2021)

Early Rinnegan Sasuke by himself is already stronger at least than 1 eyed Madara. 

2/3 eyed Madara would probably beat him by outlasting tho. 

But BPS Sasuke? Yeah any version of Madara gets destroyed. 

Sasuke shits.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 2


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## Monarch (Jul 7, 2021)

Sasuke already physically blitzed and bisected Juudara with a Chidori sword .

BPS PS slashes would wipe him out from the face of the Earth .

Indra Arrow one shots as well though it most likely won't be needed  .

Sasuke neg diffs .

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Hellblade (Jul 7, 2021)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Sasuke already physically blitzed and bisected Juudara with a Chidori sword .


It wasn't a blitz.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Monarch (Jul 7, 2021)

Hellblade said:


> It wasn't a blitz.


I've said a physical blitz , not a mental blitz , in the sense that Juudara mentally perceived his movements but couldn't physically move fast enough to block or evade that slash .


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## Siskebabas (Jul 7, 2021)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The specification is worthless
> 
> We dont need to be told that every in and out of chakra pplications and relationships is taking place in a clash dude
> 
> ...


Chosen dude is correct. You should reread how elemental wheel works. 
Wind shurinken again was only 50% of naruto attack and for wind to have effects over lighting it either had to few ranks above it or had way more chakra which is not case at all

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## dergeist (Jul 7, 2021)

Code said:


> Cause Sasuke matched Naruto's strongest attack while at an elemental Disadvantage.
> Which means his firepower is greater.
> Right @WorldsStrongest



That wouldn't make BPS equal, that would make Sasuke's jutsu equal.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 29, 2022)

Madara bodies mid difficulty at worst.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 29, 2022)

As usual, Light Fang one shots constructs since they're too big and slow to avoid it. Shinju branches also bypass any defense via absorption. Madara wins without using full effort.

Reactions: Agree 3 | Disagree 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Mar 29, 2022)

Madara soloes himself by switching genders

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 29, 2022)

Base Sasuke was dicking on Madara before even mastering his Rinnegan, but now Madara is somehow supposed to win?

Sasuke's Amenos Madara onto Indra's Arrow and the shoots it into the sun.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Fused (Mar 29, 2022)

Almost one year later, the correct answer remains the same.

Madara's Rinnegan exhausted Obito, someone with HASHIRAMA SENJU'S cells on half his body, so hard that he literally only had one. And even then he almost "lost himself", whatever that means (he likely would have died from too much chakra if he got the second Rinnnegan too; and again, we're talking about someone who had cells of the legendary Hashirama on half his body).

Meanwhile Sasuke's Rinnegan cannot compare. Since it is said that either Kakashi or Sakura could have used it to undo Infinite Tsukuyomi.

A weapon that can be wielded by Kakashi or Sakura is not an impressive weapon.

Since his Rinnegan is vastly superior -- and he has Rinnesharingan, Ten Tails, Divine Tree, and Hashirama's Cells on top of that -- Madara neg diff stomps the younger Uchiha.


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## Ludi (Mar 29, 2022)

BPS Sasuke beats Initial Juudara, no contest


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## Anime Fan (Mar 29, 2022)

Ultrafragor said:


> Base Sasuke was dicking on Madara before even mastering his Rinnegan, but now Madara is somehow supposed to win?


When was he "dicking" on Madara smh? if anything, Madara considered the whole fight a sideshow and never lost confidence in himself against him.


Ultrafragor said:


> Sasuke's Amenos Madara onto Indra's Arrow and the shoots it into the sun.


Ameno is a short range ability that Madara already analysed like a book in a few seconds when he initially had no idea about it.

Madara limbo catches him and then nukes his ass with Quad Juubi Dama. GG


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## Anime Fan (Mar 29, 2022)

Ludi said:


> BPS Sasuke mega Initial Juudara, no contest


He would beat Initial Juudara yeah. I agree on that since he could not use his true potential without 2nd eye and has no divine tree.
3 eyed Juudara just smacks tho.


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## Ultrafragor (Mar 29, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> When was he "dicking" on Madara smh? if anything, Madara considered the whole fight a sideshow and never lost confidence in himself against him.



He literally ran away you cuck

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Mar 29, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> He would beat Initial Juudara yeah. I agree on that since he could not use his true potential without 2nd eye and has no divine tree.
> 3 eyed Juudara just smacks tho.


The biggest issue for Sasuke against post Shinju madara is the immortality and not yet access to portals. While adult Sasuke might not be necessary be BPS in DC, he would have a better chance at beating 3eye madara that way, I suppose.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 29, 2022)

Ultrafragor said:


> He literally ran away you cuck


Smh.

1. He ran away to get the 2nd eye before Obito destroys it.

2. He got jumped by the combined effort of Naruto and Sasuke which was stated to be greater than 1+1.



3. He had no idea about their new abilities.

4. He had 1 eye. the 2nd Rinnegan allowed him to unleash his true potential and true power of the Six Paths.


5. the "U cuck" is not debunking what I said. so idc


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 29, 2022)

Sasuke absorbs Madara's Juubi and Mazo and kills him that way. In short, he uses BPS to make another BPS

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2 | Disagree 1


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## Abyssdarkfire (Mar 29, 2022)

Serious Question how does Saskue beat JJ Madara when he can absorb and use Ninjutsu at the same time. Naruto and Saskue are both fucked individually only hope is duo seal.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 29, 2022)

Sasuke wins

Naruto is faster than Madara in RSBM as he outright blitzed and dismembered a far stronger Juubi Jin after pressuring her with clones and punching her into a crater with Funsuiken in just RSM

Sasuke blitzed RSBM repeatedly in BPS

Madara gets blown to smithereens by a speed jab from BPS

Reactions: Winner 2


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 29, 2022)

Abyssdarkfire said:


> Serious Question how does Saskue beat JJ Madara when he can absorb and use Ninjutsu at the same time. Naruto and Saskue are both fucked individually only hope is duo seal.


Same way Night Guy, YSCOFRS, and Chidori nuked him

And same way Kaguya and Momo with superior chakra absorption feats got repeatedly tagged (FRS, Chakra Claw, Funsuiken, Raikiri, CES, SPCT, Sand, Chou Odama Rasengan) and defeated by chakra attacks


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## Tsukuyomi (Mar 29, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sasuke wins
> 
> Naruto is faster than Madara in RSBM as he outright blitzed and dismembered a far stronger Juubi Jin in just RSM
> 
> ...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Abyssdarkfire (Mar 29, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Same way Night Guy, YSCOFRS, and Chidori nuked him
> 
> And same way Kaguya and Momo with superior chakra absorption feats got repeatedly tagged (FRS, Chakra Claw, SPCT, Sand, Rasengan) defeated by chakra attacks



You realize with Nightguy he wouldn't been have hit if it wasn't for Kamui + FTG combo. The rest was PIS because he never used said abilities. In fact Kishi had ro make up a reason if Saskue's Rinnegan being brand new so he would shit on Naruto.


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 29, 2022)

Abyssdarkfire said:


> You realize with Nightguy he wouldn't been have hit if it wasn't for Kamui + FTG combo. The rest was PIS because he never used said abilities. In fact Kishi had ro make up a reason if Saskue's Rinnegan being brand new so he would shit on Naruto.


That’s his nerf then, it doesn’t disappear on this fan forum

I only allow substitutes for the main character as it pertains to clear plot nerfs, since I don’t want KCM Naruto who ghosted V2 Ei to be equal to Edo Itachi in CQC, and inferior to SM Naruto overall and V2 Jins that Kakashi put Raikiri on the face of in CQC

IA & PA Kakashi are also plagued by his holding back Kamui nerf and Sharingan Genjutsu is a no-no for any Sharingan user after Itachi’s death, or any version of Obito who could one shot anyone in the shinobi class with it in general by walking through any attacks simply to  establish an eye contact angle for the quarter second distraction he needs to snatch a hoe

All fictional works have nerfs as entertaining the reader and maintaining cash flow comes first, always, this is why all the great selling mangas have the same dumb mind-changing protagonist who turns all his enemies into his teammates as the arcs build and wind up killing less people than a US army recruit despite taking on most the verse in death matches so the rival defeated characters that should be dead already (Vegeta, Sasuke, Renji) can continue to contribute to the work


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 29, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> As usual, Light Fang one shots constructs since they're too big and slow to avoid it.


Why the fuck does light fang oneshot avatars tiers stronger than anything Madara has ever damaged with any attack


Perfect Susano said:


> Shinju branches also bypass any defense via absorption


Sasuke can fly and teleport with no prep

Shut your mouth if you think Mokuton is even a factor 


Perfect Susano said:


> Madara wins without using full effort.


Yeah we just gonna ignore that he needed his full effort against a much weaker Naruto and Sasuke and still flopped when using his 3 best Jutsu in tandem

Nice


Anime Fan said:


> Ameno is a short range ability


BPS Sasuke deadass jumped across literally the entire final valley skyline with ameno and he took his susanoo with him when he did it and still physically blitzed Naruto 

You dont know what you’re talking about


Anime Fan said:


> Madara limbo catches him and then nukes his ass with Quad Juubi Dama.


So he wins by having his clones use an ability that not only have they never demonstrated but not even the original madara has demonstrated 

Great argument


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why the fuck does light fang oneshot avatars tiers stronger than anything Madara has ever damaged with any attack
> 
> Sasuke can fly and teleport with no prep
> 
> ...


Show me where he did it lol. I want Manga scan right now.
Also, he did not blitz Naruto. he blitzed a shadow clone.


WorldsStrongest said:


> You dont know what you’re talking about


ik very well what I am talking about. Madara himself said it in ch 674.
and so did Sasuke when he was saved by Obito and Sakura.
i can give a scan if u want.


WorldsStrongest said:


> So he wins by having his clones use an ability that not only have they never demonstrated but not even the original madara has demonstrated
> 
> Great argument


I said the original would use it not the clone. Smh.
and why would him never demonstrating it mean anything? lmao. It is a Juubi Jinchuriki ability.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke absorbs Madara's Juubi and Mazo and kills him that way. In short, he uses BPS to make another BPS


Prove that he can do it.
if anything, why can't i say the same for Madara and say he would absorb the chakra inside BPS?


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

DaVizWiz said:


> Sasuke wins
> 
> Naruto is faster than Madara in RSBM as he outright blitzed and dismembered a far stronger Juubi Jin after pressuring her with clones and punching her into a crater with Funsuiken in just RSM


1.Kaguya is not a Juubi Jin
2.If u are talking about when Naruto cut her arm. Zetsu stated it and made it clear she was low on chakra due to her spamming Amenominaka which takes a huge amount of her chakra. this reduced her reaction speed.
3.Naruto had to outsmart her when he punched her with fuisuiken by acting that he was trapped between ice until she gets close to him when she tries to absorb his chakra.



Context matters here.
ow. and Naruto never used Funsuiken against Sasuke. so he does not necessarily scale to it anyway.


DaVizWiz said:


> Sasuke blitzed RSBM repeatedly in BPS


He only blitzed a shadow clone once in the manga from a Naruto who was drained from the war.
Go ahead and quantify that.


DaVizWiz said:


> Madara gets blown to smithereens by a speed jab from BPS


more like Sasuke gets blown by a Juubidama on his face. but ok.


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## Sparks (Mar 30, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Prime Juudara is the 2nd or 3rd most powerful character in the Verse. He ain't getting killed by BPS Sasuke.


He's literally lucky to be in the top 10 at this point. Isshiki, Code without limiters, Jigen, and all cyborgs greatly surpassing Jigen quite literally low diff the fodder.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Prime Juudara is the 2nd or 3rd least powerful character in the Verse. He ain't killing PS Sasuke.



Fixed.

Reactions: Kage 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Raiken (Mar 30, 2022)

Sparks said:


> He's literally lucky to be in the top 10 at this point. Isshiki, Code without limiters, Jigen, and all cyborgs greatly surpassing Jigen quite literally low diff the fodder.


Lol. This is baseless.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

How is it baseless?  

Sparks stated facts. 

Isshiki 
Adult Naruto 
Kaguya 
Toneri 
BPS Sasuke 
Momoshiki 
DMS Kakashi 
Kawaki 
Code (Limitless) 
AA Naruto  

All are stronger than Juudara. 

Edit: Forgot about Ada and her kid brother. Also forgot about Koji.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Disagree 2


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## Raiken (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How is it baseless?
> 
> Sparks stated facts.
> 
> ...


Covered the reasons why this ain't true many times, as have many others.

Kaguya and JJ Hagaromo are the only two above Prime Juudara.

But feel free to keep living in your headcanon world.


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How is it baseless?
> 
> Sparks stated facts.
> 
> ...


While I don't necessarily agree with all of these you did forget 

JJ Hagoromo
TCM Hamura
Jigen

These for sure are above him.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Made up headcanon why this ain't true so many times, as have many others.
> 
> Kaguya and JJ Hagoromo are not the only two above Prime Juudara.
> 
> But feel free to keep living in your world of reason.



Fixed. 



Ludi said:


> While I don't necessarily agree with all of these you did forget
> 
> JJ Hagoromo
> TCM Hamura
> ...



Whom do you disagree on? Thought I was pretty conservative, I didn't even throw in Limited Code, Delta, or Base Momo  

Fair points, it is clear there are at least 13 people above Juudara though


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Seriously, @Raiken. All I've seen you do is regurgitate the same tired headcanon, deny the canonicity of the Last, and deny what the manga has said and shown. Oftentimes I've seen you dip when Sparks, Worlds, Mar55, and I debunked your arguments entirely. The same is true for your fellow Madara fans. It is clear you argue more based on your whims than based on facts. 

You know what, if you want to believe Madara is that strong, go right ahead. Just don't waste people's time pretending you're here to debate based on truth, because you're not.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fixed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uncertain about current Kawaki. And I think Adult Sasuke had better odds than Shippuden Sasuke.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Uncertain about current Kawaki. And I think Adult Sasuke had better odds than Shippuden Sasuke.



BPS Sasuke and Adult Sasuke...idk how to scale them to each other, but I feel confident both can defeat Juudara handily. Both have the feats and the portrayal. Kawaki I can understand, he's weird.


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## Raiken (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Seriously, @Raiken. All I've seen you do is regurgitate the same tired headcanon, deny the canonicity of the Last, and deny what the manga has said and shown. Oftentimes I've seen you dip when Sparks, Worlds, Mar55, and I debunked your arguments entirely. The same is true for your fellow Madara fans. It is clear you argue more based on your whims than based on facts.
> 
> You know what, if you want to believe Madara is that strong, go right ahead. Just don't waste people's time pretending you're here to debate based on truth, because you're not.


Just because you say something like this doesn't make it true. This is full of hypocrisy and agenda. You're full of shit.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Raiken said:


> Just because you say something like this doesn't make it true. However, the facts say you're right



I know

Reactions: Lewd 2


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> BPS Sasuke and Adult Sasuke...idk how to scale them to each other, but I feel confident both can defeat Juudara handily. Both have the feats and the portrayal. Kawaki I can understand, he's weird.


Adult Sasuke is equal to adult Naruto (before Baryon). Adult Naruto had +50% kurama, defeated a stronger villain than Kaguya solo (without using his strongest mode), I see no reason he cannot use (a stronger) AA as adult. He should be above BPS Sasuke by scaling from that, due to improved mastery. His casual TL chidori that completely destroys a meteor is also huge.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Adult Sasuke is equal to adult Naruto (before Baryon). Adult Naruto had +50% kurama, defeated a stronger villain than Kaguya solo (without using his strongest mode), I see no reason he cannot use (a stronger) AA as adult. He should be above BPS Sasuke by scaling from that, due to improved mastery. His casual TL chidori that completely destroys a meteor is also huge.



Adult Sasuke seems equal to a non-AA Adult Naruto, not the one with AA. His feats and portrayal have him relative to SPSM Adult Naruto only.


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Adult Sasuke seems equal to a non-AA Adult Naruto, not the one with AA. His feats and portrayal have him relative to SPSM Adult Naruto only.


Yea but noAA adult Naruto scales already above AA Shippuden Naruto.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> Yea but noAA adult Naruto scales already above AA Shippuden Naruto.



True. 

I actually love how Kishimoto proved this by having Adult SM Naruto say he can hold SM better than he did as a kid and a Kurama Jinchuriki

Reactions: Winner 1


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Madara fodderstomps, and preta negs Cucksuke's jutsu. Then there's light fang which will just smash it to bits. Also, a Susano'o amped on 10 tails juice fodderstomps Sauce's 3rd rate Susano'o which is composed of fractions of chakra.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Sparks said:


> He's literally lucky to be in the top 10 at this point. Isshiki, Code without limiters, Jigen, and all cyborgs greatly surpassing Jigen quite literally low diff the fodder.


Code without limiters is a hypothetical character and we know nothing about him other than 1 statement. so he should be excluded for now.
There are only 2 cyborgs who had that statement too.


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Code without limiters is a hypothetical character and we know nothing about him other than 1 statement. so he should be excluded for now.
> There are only 2 cyborgs who had that statement too.



Many of them live in Disney land, the cyborgs are fodder that were whooping Adult bros and getting handled by kids. At best Adult bros and cyborgs are around mid-high Kage level and get fodder stomped by any top tiers in Shippuden.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How is it baseless?
> 
> Sparks stated facts.
> 
> ...


Correct


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Toneri
> BPS Sasuke


Wrong. 


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Momoshiki


Debatable.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> DMS Kakashi


Wrong.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kawaki


Smh.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Code (Limitless)


Hypothetical character.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> AA Naruto


Wrong. Madara > AA Naruto


Aegon Targaryen said:


> All are stronger than Juudara.


Yeah no.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Madara fodderstomps, and preta negs Cucksuke's jutsu



Like it negged SPSM Naruto's YRS or Sasuke's Chidori Eiso or Black Chidori? 

Oh wait...



dergeist said:


> Then there's light fang which will just smash it to bits



Sasuke absorbs it easily.



dergeist said:


> Also, a Susano'o amped on 10 tails juice fodderstomps Sauce's 3rd rate Susano'o which is composed of fractions of chakra.



This doesn't even make sense. Sasuke literally recreated the Juubi's chakra inside his BPS.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Fun Fact: Madara haters are way more than Madara fanboys.

also, plz comment on this post. I want it to grow xD


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Like it negged SPSM Naruto's YRS or Sasuke's Chidori Eiso or Black Chidori?
> 
> Oh wait...


He did not even use it and they did nothing to him..... smh
also, stop using 1 eyed Madara who did not have his true potential of the six paths at the time (confirmed in databook 4)


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke absorbs it easily.


if he can react to it sure. prove it.
ow. and u can not use preta path in susanoo as shown in Madara vs 5 Kages. SMH. Nice try


Aegon Targaryen said:


> This doesn't even make sense. Sasuke literally recreated the Juubi's chakra inside his BPS.


It is not the Juubi's Chakra.
read this for more details:


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Like it negged SPSM Naruto's YRS or Sasuke's Chidori Eiso or Black Chidori?
> 
> Oh wait...



Did he use them against the fodders, Taru.

Oh wait..



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke absorbs it easily.



Nice fanfic, kid, he can't use jutsu and absorb at the same time. That is ignoring how fodder his preta was.

Add another L to you collection.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This doesn't even make sense. Sasuke literally recreated the Juubi's chakra inside his BPS.



Never happened, the Jyubi isn't chakra it is equated with nature energy. 

You might want to read the manga again.

Next time tag me, when you have an actual argument.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

people need to stop saying lies and misconceptions like Sasuke recreated Juubi's chakra and all.

I debunked it all here.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Did he use them against the fodders, Taru.
> 
> Oh wait



I'm *asking you* why he didn't.



dergeist said:


> Nice fanfic, kid, he can't use jutsu and absorb at the same time



Not normally, but he can through PS  



dergeist said:


> That is ignoring how fodder his preta was



How fodder was it? Sasuke stole the chakra of 9 Bijuu and infused it into his Susano'o, controlling it all at a level that rivaled Hagoromo's (not even Madara's).



dergeist said:


> Add another L to my collection



Already done  



dergeist said:


> Never happened, the Jyubi isn't chakra it is equated with nature energy



You might want to read the manga again. Kurama says Sasuke basically did the same thing Hagoromo did with Juubi.



dergeist said:


> Next time don't tag me, I won't have an actual argument.



I know


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm *asking you* why he didn't.


This is like why Sasuke did not use Naraka Path or any Path other than Deva and Preta against Naruto. this does not matter here.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not normally, but he can through PS


Prove it. we saw Madara saying he can not absorb ninjutsu in susanoo.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> How fodder was it? Sasuke stole the chakra of 9 Bijuu and infused it into his Susano'o, controlling it all at a level that rivaled Hagoromo's (not even Madara's).


Yeah ok? not a combat feat. also, wdym by not even Madara's?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Already done
> 
> 
> 
> You might want to read the manga again. Kurama says Sasuke basically did the same thing Hagoromo did with Juubi.


Lies.

He said he is doing the exact opposite. but he is referring to chakra control only here. it is not a Juubi but its mechanics are similar. and its strength is not similar too.


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I'm *asking you* why he didn't.



Because he gave no f's, it's called PIS Taru.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Not normally, but he can through PS



That's not absorption kid, be glad Batz is banned.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> How fodder was it? Sasuke stole the chakra of 9 Bijuu and infused it into his Susano'o, controlling it all at a level that rivaled Hagoromo's (not even Madara's).



You really didn't read it, did you. He synthesised the chakra. Hogaromo never did that, do I need to spell out for you what Sauce did or the equivalence being made. Madura went a stage above, he remade the 10 tails, of course Sauce can't compare.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Already done



I know I stopped entertaining your folly, and it pains me to keep handing out Ls. I'm sorry Taru.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You might want to read the manga again. Kurama says Sasuke basically did the same thing Hagoromo did with Juubi.
> 
> 
> 
> I know



Never happened, Hogaromo didn't make or aythesise the Jyubi chakra into a Jyubi. You really do need to read the manga again, this time ask and I'll guide you through it.

Well, I've given you enough time. Get back to me when you have something outside of headcanon.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

I really got sick of the moderator approval thing once i put scans in my messages. how can I solve this plz?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I really got sick of the moderator approval thing once i put scans in my messages. how can I solve this plz?



You can't, we can't post copyrighted material. The mods approval is needed for that reason. You could post, non Vic translation scans, that might be a way around it.


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I really got sick of the moderator approval thing once i put scans in my messages. how can I solve this plz?



Try to find a different scan for whatever is being held back, check which scan it is that's being held back in particular too by posting it differently to find out if it'll be held back again so then you know the problem.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

@Asura barracuda @dergeist Ok. thank u.

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Because he gave no f's



Wrong (as usual). Madara was shook and quickly ran to go get his Rinnegan. 



dergeist said:


> it's called PIS Taru



A loser's excuse, so concession accepted.



dergeist said:


> That's not absorption kid, be glad Batz is banned



Do you know what absorption means?

ab·sorp·tion
/əbˈzôrpSH(ə)n,əbˈsôrpSH(ə)n/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
the process or action by which one thing absorbs or is absorbed by another.
"shock absorption"
Similar:
soaking up
sucking up
drawing up/in
taking up/in
blotting up
mopping up
sponging up
sopping up
osmosis
incorporation
assimilation
integration
appropriation
taking in
subsuming
inclusion
co-opting
swallowing up
reduction
decrease
lessening
softening

Hmm...most of these seem to describe what Sasuke did to the Bijuus just fine  



dergeist said:


> You really didn't read it, did you. He synthesised the chakra. Hogaromo never did that, do I need to spell out for you what Sauce did or the equivalence being made



Kurama said Sasuke replicated Hagoromo's feat, just in reverse. This isn't debatable, my young padawan. 

It also doesn't take a genius to figure out what it means to merge the chakra of 9 Bijuu (9 Bijuu chakra = the Juubi's chakra).



dergeist said:


> Madura went a stage above, he remade the 10 tails, of course Sauce can't compare



Kurama's comparison explicitly says otherwise, Sasuke effectively remade the Juubi but used Susano'o as a receiving vessel instead of the Mazo. Can you read, or is that too hard for you?



dergeist said:


> I know you stopped entertaining my folly, and it pains me to keep taking Ls. I'm sorry Taru



It's okay  



dergeist said:


> Never happened, Hogaromo didn't make or aythesise the Jyubi chakra into a Jyubi. You really do need to read the manga again, this time ask and I'll guide you through it



No, Sasuke did the reverse thing of what Hagoromo did. Instead of releasing the 9 Bijuu like Hagoromo did, Sasuke forcibly assimilated them into his Susano'o.

You know, the same thing I told you. 



dergeist said:


> Well, you've given me enough time. Get back to me when I have something outside of headcanon.



Concession accepted


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## Soldierofficial (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> How is it baseless?
> 
> Sparks stated facts.
> 
> ...



You have forgotten about Eida, Daemon, Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, V2 Boruto, Delta, Jigen, Boro, Koji and any other characters that are relevant in Boruto and therefore above WA fodders like Juudara.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> You have forgotten about Eida, Daemon, Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, V2 Boruto, Delta, Jigen, Boro, Koji and any other characters that are relevant in Boruto and therefore above WA fodders like Juudara.



Yeah, my bad. I'm not sure about Boro, Delta, and Boruto though, the rest are fair game, I suppose.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wrong (as usual). Madara was shook and quickly ran to go get his Rinnegan.


was shook because he knew nothing about their abilities and he later analysed it smh. also, we are using 3 eyed Madara here. not 1 eyed.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> A loser's excuse, so concession accepted.


this is not a debunk. and not a concession for him either.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Do you know what absorption means?
> 
> ab·sorp·tion
> /əbˈzôrpSH(ə)n,əbˈsôrpSH(ə)n/
> ...


Yeah. he absorbed a large amount of their chakra. sure. and?


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kurama said Sasuke replicated Hagoromo's feat, just in reverse. This isn't debatable, my young padawan.


key word: "in reverse"
and this has nothing to do with power. it is just chakra control.
not that it matters anyway since Madara > Hagoromo.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It also doesn't take a genius to figure out what it means to merge the chakra of 9 Bijuu (9 Bijuu chakra = the Juubi's chakra).


Lies. Databook stated that even combined power of all bijuus <<< Ten-Tails.
read this again for more details:
Also, Juubi uses senjutsu chakra by mixing nature energy of the earth with it. Normal bijuus do not have that



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Kurama's comparison explicitly says otherwise, Sasuke effectively remade the Juubi but used Susano'o as a receiving vessel instead of the Mazo. Can you read, or is that too hard for you?


False. he just used the same principle of chakra control and did the reverse of what Hagoromo did using limited portions of their chakra.
saying he remade the Juubi tho is a lie and headcanon.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's okay
> 
> 
> 
> ...


He assimilated large portions of their chakra. not exactly them tho.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

Hmm, for the Borutards i think this will help with your scaling.

I think Boruto scales to Naruto and Sasuke, and perhaps above them and Madara too based on feats since that's your language.



Asura barracuda said:


> *Alright hold off on those votes and listen to my argument first...then vote. capishce? .
> 
> Ahem.*
> 
> ...





Asura barracuda said:


> *There's also the fact that Sasuke announced to Boruto that it's all up to him now so this is very much confirmation that Boruto scales to Fused Momoshiki in Base. He also then went on to Blitz Isshikis reaction speeds in base and teleports him before he can react to what happened, Sasuke tried this with Amenotojikara and failed but Boruto succeeded in blitzing Isshiki.*





Asura barracuda said:


> *Now to for team 7 scaling.
> 
> I'll get straight to the point, Delta fought a far stronger Naruto than the one that beat Momoshiki who was being drained for hours, he didn't physically hold back on her and was shown to genuinely struggle against her even in his Kurama mode. She also physically overpowered him and stabbed him with her legs, Naruto does not control his durability so it was a genuine injury.
> 
> ...


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> was shook because he knew nothing about their abilities and he later analysed it smh. also, we are using 3 eyed Madara here. not 1 eyed.
> 
> this is not a debunk. and not a concession for him either.
> 
> ...



Although he didn't present a rebuttal worth entertaining, you saved me the time

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Although he didn't present a rebuttal worth entertaining, you saved me the time


Thanks

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## t0xeus (Mar 30, 2022)

Who is Anime Fan?  Name change?


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I really got sick of the moderator approval thing once i put scans in my messages. how can I solve this plz?


Use official sources or upload sites that are allowed here


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## Impulse (Mar 30, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> You have forgotten about Eida, Daemon, Kinshiki, Base Momoshiki, V2 Boruto, Delta, Jigen, Boro, Koji and any other characters that are relevant in Boruto and therefore above WA fodders like Juudara.





Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, my bad. I'm not sure about Boro, Delta, and Boruto though, the rest are fair game, I suppose.


Are you two forgetting about Chojuro 

The Man who beat Black Zetsu who one-shot Juudara

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Although he didn't present a rebuttal worth entertaining, you saved me the time



You still lost though


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

t0xeus said:


> Who is Anime Fan?  Name change?


sorry. I am new here.

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> You still lost though



Please, you couldn't beat your way out of a paper bag. You should be grateful I solod you and let you be, instead @Anime Fan came in and solod you again.

I'll give you some time, when I read something worth writing a rebuttal to 

If you would stop at the flopped attempts to troll, you might write attention worthy posts

Reactions: Winner 1 | Friendly 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

anyway, back to topic.

3 eyed Madara > 2 eyed Madara > BPS Sasuke.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Ludi said:


> While I don't necessarily agree with all of these you did forget
> 
> JJ Hagoromo
> TCM Hamura


HECK HECK AND HECK NO. Debate me if u disagree, on another thread tho.


Ludi said:


> Jigen


Agreed.


Ludi said:


> These for sure are above him.


Hagoromo and Hamura are a big no


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 30, 2022)

dergeist said:


> Please, I couldn't beat my way out of a paper bag, beating me is nothing to be proud of



A win is a win


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## Ludi (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> HECK HECK AND HECK NO. Debate me if u disagree, on another thread tho.
> 
> Agreed.
> 
> Hagoromo and Hamura are a big no


I have seen your reasoning and have debated against such reasoning already over and over again, at least for JJ Hagoromo. 

If you want a discussion about JJ Hagoromo Vs JJ Madara you can bump one of the existing threads or make a new one. I'm tired from discussing that specific subject. 

TCM Hamura should scale to TCM Toneri who is significantly above Madara. If you think TCM Hamura is much weaker than Toneri I can understand why we disagree on that.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why the fuck does light fang oneshot avatars tiers stronger than anything Madara has ever damaged with any attack


Slices through a Truthseeker like a hot knife through butter. Same Truthseekers that Sasuke's V3 arrows did nothing against during VOTE 2. Same Truthseekers that need the same V3 arrows combo'd with Bijudama to even cause a small chip. Truthseeker durability is relative at worst to avatars if not greater.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Sasuke can fly and teleport with no prep
> 
> Shut your mouth if you think Mokuton is even a factor


Those abilities don't matter unless Sasuke flies so far away from Madara that they can't even fight. Minato can teleport and his avatar still got caught. Kurama can also keep up with a flying Obito just fine and still got caught.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Yeah we just gonna ignore that he needed his full effort against a much weaker Naruto and Sasuke and still flopped when using his 3 best Jutsu in tandem
> 
> Nice


He just used whatever in order to stall them so he could use IT. Madara himself didn't hold what he used or Naruto/Sasuke in high regard which is why he called the CT raindrops and the duo a sideshow.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Slices through a Truthseeker like a hot knife through butter. *Same Truthseekers that Sasuke's V3 arrows did nothing against during VOTE 2*. Same Truthseekers that need the same V3 arrows combo'd with Bijudama to even cause a small chip. Truthseeker durability is relative at worst to avatars if not greater.


They actually pierced the truthseeking orbs.

(1:11/1:12)


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> They actually pierced the truthseeking orbs.
> 
> (1:11/1:12)


An anime discrepancy to make the scene look cool. In the manga they exploded on impact with the orbs. And it's still inferior to light fangs display.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> An anime discrepancy to make the scene look cool. In the manga they exploded on impact with the orbs. And it's still inferior to light fangs display.


So they did do something even in the manga?

Light Fang didn't accomplish a thing from what I remember.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> So they did do something even in the manga?


They exploded on contact with the Truthseeker while doing nothing to it as shown by their undamaged state later.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Light Fang didn't accomplish a thing from what I remember.


It sliced Naruto's Truthseeker with no resistance.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> They exploded on contact with the Truthseeker while doing nothing to it as shown by their undamaged state later.


They were temporarily missing.

What you think happened to them my friend?


Perfect Susano said:


> It sliced Naruto's Truthseeker with no resistance.


And the Susano'o arrow pierced them.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> They were temporarily missing.
> 
> What you think happened to them my friend?
> 
> And the Susano'o arrow pierced them.


Nothing. They simply went back to where they were after blocking the arrow.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Nothing. They simply went back to where they were after blocking the arrow.


Yep, a few panels later. You act like Sasuke couldn't shoot more arrows.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Yep, a few panels later. You act like Sasuke couldn't shoot more arrows.


Doesn't matter. There are literally shattered pieces of Sasuke's arrows in the manga panel where they clash. They did not penetrate Naruto's TSB in the manga.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Doesn't matter. There are literally shattered pieces of Sasuke's arrows in the manga panel where they clash. They did not penetrate Naruto's TSB in the manga.


They exploded. That's even better than penitrating them honestly.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> They exploded. That's even better than penitrating them honestly.


The arrows shattered and the orbs are still in their original state. I don't know what you're talking about at all.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> The arrows shattered and the orbs are still in their original state. I don't know what you're talking about at all.


No. Both shattered. That was a common theme in that fight. 

PS Chidori vs. Bijudama=Mutual destruction.

BPS Chidori Senbons vs. Three TB=Mutual destruction.

Indra's arrow vs. Naruto's answer=Mutual destruction.

Enton Chidori vs. Rasengan =Mutual destruction.

Are you starting to see the pattern?


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Stop using anime filler to prove ur point smh and stick with the source material (Manga)

@Perfect Susanoo won the argument ez


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Stop using anime filler to prove ur point smh and stick with the source material (Manga)
> 
> @Perfect Susanoo won the argument ez


Stop butting in to grown folks business, and learn to read.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No. Both shattered. That was a common theme in that fight.
> 
> PS Chidori vs. Bijudama=Mutual destruction.
> 
> ...


There was no mutual destruction here since the TSB are perfectly intact while Sasuke's arrows are in pieces in the manga. TSB do not regenerate damage. With that in mind even using the anime, Sasuke effectively did nothing to the TSB despite piercing them since he did nothing to their structural integrity at all. They're completely undamaged.


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## Fused (Mar 30, 2022)

@Anime Fan See I told you, Madara haters here are weak and easy to debunk.

They can only spam nonsensical oneliners like "Sasuke stomps lele kkekek", they never provide any scan or statement, they can never back their pathetic baseless claims.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> There was no mutual destruction here since the TSB are perfectly intact. They do not regenerate damage. With that in mind even using the anime, Sasuke effectively did nothing to the TSB despite piercing them since he did nothing to their structural integrity at all. They're completely undamaged.


Only after Naruto summoned them back. 

How were they undamaged when they were visibly missing for a few pages?


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Only after Naruto summoned them back.
> 
> How were they undamaged when they were visibly missing for a few pages?


You're acting like he created 3 new Truthseekers out of thin air. He simply brought the 3 he sent out back to him and those Truthseekers had no damage on them whatsoever.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> You're acting like he created 3 new Truthseekers out of thin air. He simply brought the 3 he sent out back to him and those Truthseekers had no damage on them whatsoever.


And you are acting like more arrows could be fired.

He simply what? Where is the panel that showcases the truth seeking orbs actively MOVING back to him.


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## Zef (Mar 30, 2022)



Reactions: Funny 1


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And you are acting like more arrows could be fired.
> 
> He simply what? Where is the panel that showcases the truth seeking orbs actively MOVING back to him.


If you're claiming that Naruto's Truthseekers were destroyed and he created 3 new ones then this conversation is going to end right here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> If you're claiming that Naruto's Truthseekers were destroyed and he created 3 new ones then this conversation is going to end right here.


No...Do what I asked.

Showcase a panel of the Truthseeking orbs actively MOVING back to Naruto.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No...Do what I asked.
> 
> Showcase a panel of the Truthseeking orbs actively MOVING back to Naruto.


I don't need to since he's shown to have the same Truthseekers after the clash with Sasuke's arrows. Are you claiming that Naruto created 3 new Truthseekers? Yes or no?


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No...Do what I asked.
> 
> Showcase a panel of the Truthseeking orbs actively MOVING back to Naruto.


 That's strange, why do you act like a panel is necessary to showcase Naruto recalling his orbs?

He very much cannot create another one like a true Juubi Jinchuriki could if they willed and even Madara couldn't recreate his instantly after they were lost.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> I don't need to since he's shown to have the same Truthseekers after the clash with Sasuke's arrows. Are you claiming that Naruto created 3 new Truthseekers. Yes or no?


So you can't do what I asked?

Concession accepted.

Reactions: Lewd 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> That's strange, why do you act like a panel is necessary to showcase Naruto recalling his orbs?
> 
> He very much cannot create another one like a true Juubi Jinchuriki could if they willed and even Madara couldn't recreate his instantly after they were lost.


Never said he can create new ones.

I'd reckon the jutsu is similar to a summon. No you can't create a summon, but you can unsummon and re-summon xyz.

For whatever the reason Naruto's Truthseeking orbs were missing for a noticeable amount of time. This is demonstrated in both the manga and the anime.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Stop butting in to grown folks business, and learn to read.


I read boi. and I just see u saying lies. Naruto's TSOs hit the arrows in the manga and returned to Naruto's back perfectly fine. Read chapters 695 and 696. ow, and the arrows did not stab TSO in manga. they got nullified via Yin-Yang Release.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Only after Naruto summoned them back.
> 
> How were they undamaged when they were visibly missing for a few pages?


Prove this right now. U claimed it. so u prove it


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> So you can't do what I asked?
> 
> Concession accepted.


Nobody needs to show Naruto recalling the same 3 orbs that he sent out 5 seconds ago. They were a notable distance away from him, of course they took time to come back. The orbs stay behind the user unless they're actively being used. That's why you're bringing up completely irrelevant points and saying "concession accepted". You know your argument makes no sense but don't want to concede.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I read boi. and I just see u saying lies. Naruto's TSOs hit the arrows in the manga and returned to Naruto's back perfectly fine. Read chapters 695 and 696. ow, and the arrows did not stab TSO in manga. they got nullified via Yin-Yang Release.


Then you need to step up your reading comprehension game, as I quickly moved from the anime to the manga.

Thanks for playing though.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Fused said:


> @Anime Fan See I told you, Madara haters here are weak and easy to debunk.
> 
> They can only spam nonsensical oneliners like "Sasuke stomps lele kkekek", they never provide any scan or statement, they can never back their pathetic baseless claims.


Spittin. I swear if I can just send scans with no luxury bro.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Then you need to step up your reading comprehension game, as I quickly moved from the anime to the manga.
> 
> Thanks for playing though.


it does not matter since u still tried to lie earlier but ur lie got cleared. it was a nice try tho.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Prove this right now. U claimed it. so u prove it


That's why you need to leave your argument to your betters.

It's not my job to prove and validate your argument.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That's why you need to leave your argument to your betters.
> 
> It's not my job to prove and validate your argument.


U just made a claim. give evidence for it or it will just be dismissed bud. As simple as that.

and prove that the TSO were damaged too.  U claimed it. not me.


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Never said he can create new ones.
> 
> I'd reckon the jutsu is similar to a summon. No you can't create a summon, but you can unsummon and re-summon xyz.
> 
> For whatever the reason Naruto's Truthseeking orbs were missing for a noticeable amount of time. This is demonstrated in both the manga and the anime.


 Hmm, the orbs are only present when the cloaks come on as noted when he first appeared.

But the orbs were also shown to have a limit distance to which they can be away from the caster before being lost. I think it was about 5-10 meters that was noted to be the limit.

They also can be called back extremely quickly and scale above the users own speeds even.

Now when the orbs clashed with the arrows the fell in the water, Then Naruto and Sasuke Made huge Avatars that was close to where the orbs fell.

As fast as the orbs were shown to travel, he very much would have called them back to him in that instant when he flew over the waters.


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## Magon (Mar 30, 2022)

Madara.

The only way would be Sasuke and Naruto as Kishimoto stated.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> That's strange, why do you act like a panel is necessary to showcase Naruto recalling his orbs?
> 
> He very much cannot create another one like a true Juubi Jinchuriki could if they willed and even Madara couldn't recreate his instantly after they were lost.


This is his baseless headcanon assumption lol. when he gave no evidence for it and is just trying to make @Perfect Susano prove the opposite.
this is just sad tbh.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Nobody needs to show Naruto recalling the same 3 orbs that he sent out 5 seconds ago. They were a notable distance away from him, of course they took time to come back. The orbs stay behind the user unless they're actively being used. That's why you're bringing up completely irrelevant points and saying "concession accepted". You know your argument makes no sense but don't want to concede.


But even the anime doesn't show them traveling back to Naruto.

One scene he doesn't have them, the next minute he does.

What part of my post is irrelevant good sir. Please enlight me.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But even the anime doesn't show them traveling back to Naruto.


first of all, Manga > Anime.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> One scene he doesn't have them, the next minute he does.
> 
> What part of my post is irrelevant good sir. Please enlight me.


Ok? what would that mean then?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> This is his baseless headcanon assumption lol. when he gave no evidence for it and is just trying to make @Perfect Susano prove the opposite.
> this is just sad tbh.


That's that reading comprehension, again.


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> This is his baseless headcanon assumption lol. when he gave no evidence for it and is just trying to make @Perfect Susano prove the opposite.
> this is just sad tbh.



Hm, well he admitted he wasn't saying that Naruto could recreate them like a true Juubi Jinchuriki. 

Just the fact of the orbs missing for some panels is what is being questioned, I'm of the opinion they weren't damaged but just a bit out of range.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> That's that reading comprehension, again.


Wdym?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> first of all, Manga > Anime.
> 
> Ok? what would that mean then?


Find the manga panel that showcases the truth seeking orbs traveling then.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Asura barracuda said:


> Hm, well he admitted he wasn't saying that Naruto could recreate them like a true Juubi Jinchuriki.
> 
> Just the fact of the orbs missing for some panels is what is being questioned, I'm of the opinion they weren't damaged but just a bit out of range.


That does not prove anything. He would need to prove that they were damaged but them not appearing for some panels does not imply it at all.
also, some of the manga panels show a very small pic of Naruto in Kurama avatar that u can not notice well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Wdym?


You had to be corrected in regards to my argument. Which means you failed at basic reading comprehension.


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## Asura barracuda (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> That does not prove anything. He would need to prove that they were damaged but them not appearing for some panels does not imply it at all.
> also, some of the manga panels show a very small pic of Naruto in Kurama avatar that u can not notice well.


 Yeah, the panel's where Naruto is shown extremely small could very well be misleading and may be the case of when he called them back.

The rods weren't damaged I acknowledge that obviously tho.


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> But even the anime doesn't show them traveling back to Naruto.
> 
> One scene he doesn't have them, the next minute he does.
> 
> What part of my post is irrelevant good sir. Please enlight me.


Not seeing the orbs go back is irrelevant. We know how they work. We know that the 3 orbs that intercepted the arrows are the same ones behind Naruto's back. They're behind Naruto's back after the clash undamaged.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> You had to be corrected in regards to my argument. Which means you failed at basic reading comprehension.


ok sorry for that.
but we see in page 15 of chapter 695 that the 3 orbs are on Naruto's back.
Naruto nullified susanoo arrows in page 6.

Then Sasuke immediately rushed to him with Perfect susanoo at high speeds. so Naruto used Bijuu Transformation too.

there are some flashback pics between them too and the 2 were moving at top speed.

then in page 15 when Naruto was charging a bijuu bomb, the orbs were back behind him.

how does that prove that the orbs got damaged? explain this

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Not seeing the orbs go back is irrelevant. We know how they work. We know that the 3 orbs that intercepted the arrows are the same ones behind Naruto's back. They're behind Naruto's back after the clash undamaged.


And we know that there was a explosion that happened when the truth seeking orbs collided with Susanoo arrows; in which the truth seeking orbs were missing for a noticeable amount of time.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> Not seeing the orbs go back is irrelevant. We know how they work. We know that the 3 orbs that intercepted the arrows are the same ones behind Naruto's back. They're behind Naruto's back after the clash undamaged.


yes. the Orbs simply nullified the susanoo arrows with Yin-Yang Release. it is the safest interpretation with the least amount of assumptions. this is just my opinion tho.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And we know that there was a explosion that happened when the truth seeking orbs collided with Susanoo arrows; in which the truth seeking orbs were missing for a noticeable amount of time.


How much time? Can u quantify that? characters in Naruto move at very high speed. take that into account


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## Perfect Susano (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> And we know that there was a explosion that happened when the truth seeking orbs collided with Susanoo arrows; in which the truth seeking orbs were missing for a noticeable amount of time.


"Missing" for some time does not mean they were damaged. If no damage is shown on the orb itself then there was no damage.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> ok sorry for that.
> but we see in page 15 of chapter 695 that the 3 orbs are on Naruto's back.
> Naruto nullified susanoo arrows in page 6.


No prob.

I'm well aware of what took place in the manga.



Anime Fan said:


> Then Sasuke immediately rushed to him with Perfect susanoo at high speeds. so Naruto used Bijuu Transformation too.


Given.

Now post the panel of the truth seeking orbs actively returning to him.



Anime Fan said:


> there are some flashback pics between them too and the 2 were moving at top speed.


Given.



Anime Fan said:


> then in page 15 when Naruto was charging a bijuu bomb, the orbs were back behind him.


So did they magically travel to him or were they just there?


Anime Fan said:


> how does that prove that the orbs got damaged? explain this


Already did.

Please refer to an earlier post.
No. Both shattered. That was a common theme in that fight.


*Spoiler*: __ 




PS Chidori vs. Bijudama=Mutual destruction.

BPS Chidori Senbons vs. Three TB=Mutual destruction.

Indra's arrow vs. Naruto's answer=Mutual destruction.

Enton Chidori vs. Rasengan =Mutual destruction.

Are you starting to see the pattern?


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## IpHr0z3nI (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> How much time? Can u quantify that? characters in Naruto move at very high speed. take that into account


For that you'd have rely on the anime; in which you clowned me for using.


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## Sparks (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Code without limiters is a hypothetical character and we know nothing about him other than 1 statement. so he should be excluded for now.


The only reason Code has limiters in the first place, is because he was, in fact, stronger than Jigen. This is directly stated.

And current Code without limiters would be even more powerful than that past Code due to having higher basal stats. Not to mention the fact that Young Code is not shown with the belt modification on his forehead, and this ability may now exist on top of his aforementioned combat ability.

Cope harder.

@Code

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 2


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

Sparks said:


> The only reason Code has limiters in the first place, is because he was, in fact, stronger than Jigen. This is directly stated.
> 
> And current Code without limiters would be even more powerful than that past Code due to having higher basal stats. Not to mention the fact that Young Code is not shown with the belt modification on his forehead, and this ability may now exist on top of his aforementioned combat ability.
> 
> ...


I did not deny that but he is still not an official version of Code for now and only a hypothetical version that we would see soon.
for now, I prefer if we just scale his limiters form. ofc this is only my opinion.


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## MYGod000 (Mar 30, 2022)

Madara wins here Even Before He absorbed the Divine Tree Hagoromo already stated he was at a power that was close to his thank to the Ten tails.

This negates anything Naruto did Against him Because we know He already close to Hagoromo chakra and power.

while Naruto is little over 50% of Hagoromo power thank to his own chakra before Getting 50% of Hagoromo chakra.

There is no proof Sasuke was close to Hagoromo in chakra or in power when the context Kurama spoke of Sasuke was in his chakra control being on Hagoromo's level not his power or his chakra.

While we are told directly by Hagoromo that Madara is at a power close to his own.

even the weakest version of JJ Madara Curbstomps Sasuke here.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Perfect Susano said:


> They exploded on contact with the Truthseeker while doing nothing to it as shown by their undamaged state later.
> 
> It sliced Naruto's Truthseeker with no resistance.



Facts


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## dergeist (Mar 30, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I did not deny that but he is still not an official version of Code for now and only a hypothetical version that we would see soon.
> for now, I prefer if we just scale his limiters form. ofc this is only my opinion.



Jigen is a fodder beating fodder adult bros after being amped on some  JJ juice of a weak Sapling, so not sure what he's arguing as stronger than Jigen based on, unless he means the fodderigen version


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

bruh. the voting poll hurts my eyes. Madara is objectively stronger. deal with it.
even by narrative and lore, he has more power ups. he has a kekkei mora Rinne-Sharingan.
he used Wood Release on a planetary scale (databook said that this wood release technique requires chakra to make it grow so Madara scales to it)

I like Sasuke but..... facts are facts xD.


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> No prob.
> 
> I'm well aware of what took place in the manga.


Ok then.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Given.
> 
> Now post the panel of the truth seeking orbs actively returning to him.


There isn't. but why would it matter anyway?


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Given.
> 
> 
> So did they magically travel to him or were they just there?


How was Obito returning the TSOs to himself before lol? this is exactly what happened with Naruto's TSOs here.


IpHr0z3nI said:


> Already did.
> 
> Please refer to an earlier post.
> No. Both shattered. That was a common theme in that fight.


Excuse me.... if the TSOs "shattered"
how are they on Naruto's back lol?


IpHr0z3nI said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What do these abilities have to do with the TSOs? what? ur argument literally makes no sense at this point.
these are ninjutsu attacks that are meant to clash with each other. but with the TSO, it was not. it was meant to nullify the Arrows using Yin-Yang Release and it did its job.
them being on Naruto's back again proves it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 30, 2022)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> For that you'd have rely on the anime; in which you clowned me for using.


Not true because the minutes and seconds of the anime that we watch does not correlate to the time in the verse itself since they fight at near lightspeeds at least. they just slow it down so we watchers can watch and enjoy.
ow, and studio pierrot added a lot of extra scenes in the fight compared to the manga. so this is another reason
sorry if u think i "clowned" u. i did not intend that. just said the truth tho.


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## Kaioh (Mar 30, 2022)

Madara neg diffs the fodder in a real fight that's not restricted by Kishimoto's nonsense

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2022)

You cant create new TSBs

once you have lost the TSB, they are gone for good, atleast thats what we have beeen shown through madara, and naruto

>when madaras TSB got teleported away by minato, he never recovered them back,

>when naruto lost his TSB they were gone for good, he lost 5 against the fight with kaguya and then lost the other 3 after VOTE completely

So what does this mean?

>in the susnaoo arrow vs TSB clash, the explosion started immediately

>the explosion caused the arrow to be eradicated but the TSB then returned to naruto. You cant just pick and choose to create new TSBs when netiehr madara nor naruto has shown that feat despite both having SPSM. 

So yeah, the TSBs shat on Susanoo arrows


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> You cant create new TSBs
> 
> once you have lost the TSB, they are gone for good, atleast thats what we have beeen shown through madara, and naruto
> 
> ...



I mean that could have been just plot. 

Madara at that point Has the power of Hagoromo who can create something from nothing using Yin+Yang Release which he has even with TSO.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> Madara the fodder neg diffs Sasuke in a fight that's not restricted by feats and portrayal



Fixed.


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I mean that could have been just plot.
> 
> Madara at that point Has the power of Hagoromo who can create something from nothing using Yin+Yang Release which he has even with TSO.


unlikely 

the TSBs would have been really helpful when dealing with naruto and sasukes rasengan level attacks 
they also would have prevented them from dealing any major blows on him without using big nukes 

once madara lost his TSBs, he had powered up further by getting the shinju, then the RG and then the rinne sharingan 
logically speaking after the shinju he completely rejuvenated so he should have gotten his TSBs back but he didnt 
which implies that once you have lost your TSBs they are gone for good


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 31, 2022)

great 

Another stonewalling madara wanker

Cuz we definitely needed more of this kind of bullshit  


Anime Fan said:


> Show me where he did it lol.







Anime Fan said:


> Also, he did not blitz Naruto


He did

Like

100% 


Anime Fan said:


> he blitzed a shadow clone.


A shadow clone is created in equal portions of power to the original but even if we assume that wasnt the case this doesnt fucking matter

Because he doesnt just blitz a shadow clone he blitzes the original Naruto as well

NONE of the clones or the original Naruto react to that Ameno use

Like I said you dont know what youre talking about


Anime Fan said:


> ik very well what I am talking about.


Must be why you just tried to say BPS Sasuke cant use ameno over short distances when I just fucked that argument in the mouth then


Anime Fan said:


> I said the original would use it not the clone


And the original ALSO lacks the feats to do what youre suggesting

So youre still wrong

Congratulations


Anime Fan said:


> and why would him never demonstrating it mean anything? l


Because thats how feats and debating work troll

How you gonna scale attacks youve never seen before genius?


Anime Fan said:


> It is a Juubi Jinchuriki ability.


And one that lacks the feats to damage BPS per any of its showings


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> great
> 
> Another stonewalling madara wanker
> 
> Cuz we definitely needed more of this kind of bullshit


the "oW. mAdArA wAnKeR" is not going to refute me so idc about what u are saying.


WorldsStrongest said:


>






Yea ok? Quantify that distance.


WorldsStrongest said:


> He did
> 
> 
> Like
> ...


As I said, it was a shadow clone.


WorldsStrongest said:


> A shadow clone is created in equal portions of power to the original but even if we assume that wasnt the case this doesnt fucking matter


keyword: "equal PORTIONS of power" to the original.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Because he doesnt just blitz a shadow clone he blitzes the original Naruto as well
> 
> NONE of the clones or the original Naruto react to that Ameno use


1.Prove that it was Ameno usage.
2.I can just argue that Naruto was drained from the war as stated by Kurama in chapter 697.

Less Chakra = Less reaction speed.
it was even stated in Sasuke vs Deidara.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Like I said you dont know what youre talking about


I do. Saying this is not going to change anything. so idc.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Must be why you just tried to say BPS Sasuke cant use ameno over short distances when I just fucked that argument in the mouth then


U did not debunk shit as U did not prove it. the databook even agrees with me.



"Short distance and middle distance"

which means around 10m range




WorldsStrongest said:


> And the original ALSO lacks the feats to do what youre suggesting
> 
> 
> So youre still wrong
> ...


Ok. So? Him not showing feats of it does not mean anything.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Because thats how feats and debating work troll
> 
> How you gonna scale attacks youve never seen before genius?


By scaling to user itself????
By statements???
Yeah, U can.
the "TrOlL" is not refuting or proving anything again.


WorldsStrongest said:


> And one that lacks the feats to damage BPS per any of its showings


Prove it.
and it should scale to Madara himself in 3 eyes who did a wood release jutsu on a global scale.



4th databook:




> *Infinite Tsukuyomi *(Mugen Tsukuyomi)*​
> Genjutsu, Kekkei Moura, Supplementary, All ranges
> User(s): Uchiha Madara, Ootsutsuki Kaguya
> *The divine eye observes all things of creation, caught in this prison of infinite dreams!!*
> ...


2nd databook:




> *Wood Release Secret Technique: Nativity of a World of Trees* (Mokuton Hijutsu: Jukai Koutan)​
> Ninjutsu, Hiden, Offensive, Defensive, Supplementary, All ranges
> User(s): First Hokage
> *The furious, boundless realm of vegetation appears, splitting the earth apart!! Those who set foot into it can forget about escaping!!*
> ...


that scales to him because he used it with his chakra. so now, prove that BPS can survive that. I will wait.

U can spam how many emojis u want because I don't care about them. I only care about the arguments and debunks.

Ow. and btw, come here:

Reactions: Winner 1


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## SCP049LEFOU (Mar 31, 2022)

JJ Madara should win

here are my points

*Hagoromo stated that One-Eyed Pre God Tree Madara was close to him:
今のマダラがまさにそれだ。。。まるで母のカグヤの様だ "Right now, Madara is exactly like that... He's like Mother Kaguya." インドラの転生者を終えた今は十尾の力を得てワシにちかづき "Indra's current reincarnation gained the Ten Tails (Juubi) power, a power close to mine." 母カグヤの力にさえ近づこうとしている " now he's even getting closer to the power of Mother Kaguya."*

after that Madara obtained three huge power ups which are the God Tree, a second Rinnegan, the Rinnesharingan

so it's safe to assume that 3 eyed Madara is on Hagoromo lvl or more

*Madara could probably tank the indra susanoo:*

Indra Arrow is not enhanced by senjutsu

a juubi jinchuriki can only be hurt by senjutsu or physical attacks because all ninjutsu based attacks gets nullify 

now let's debunk some argument that people use to downplays Madara

*Sasuke blitzed Madara:*

i can argue that is Madara didn't give a darn (which is his personality trait), let Sasuke bisect him to save time on teleporting to another dimension. And if Sasuke was able to blitz and bisect Madara, he would've done this long time ago

Madara didn't seem really worried and concerned when Sasuke was running towards him

this is what he said

"You're very fast as expected, Sasuke"


note the *"AS EXPECTED"* that Madara says

Note also that this same Madara was able to react to Naruto a while being off guard  and was able to blitz him


also Sasuke tried the same thing on dual rinnegan madara but a limbos reacted to his speed and blitzed him

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> unlikely
> 
> the TSBs would have been really helpful when dealing with naruto and sasukes rasengan level attacks
> they also would have prevented them from dealing any major blows on him without using big nukes
> ...



it plot because Madara even without TSO was close to Hagoromo's Level even without the TSO he should have been handily stopping them.




Naruto was making him struggle Even though He was slightly over 50% of Hagoromo and much weaker than Madara.

He could have still created them using BZ like Obito did.




it's not really gone forever.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kaioh (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fixed.



Lol, funny. But no, Rikkudo Madara stomps Sasuke, even with BPS included.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

Ameno isn't going to do anything here for Sasuke.

Naruto while focusing on Sasuke's Fire ball jutsu was able to react to it and turn out to defend against it in just one panel.




SPSM Naruto reaction speed>=Ten tails Madara.

As we know Pre-Divine Tree Ten tails Madara=Close to Hagoromo level.

SPSM Naruto and Sasuke were not close to Hagoromo level which is why Hagoromo wanted both of them to fight him together since that was their best option of defeating him.

We can conclude that Pre-Divine Tree JJ Madara>SPSM Naruto>>Rinnegan Sasuke.

Then Madara absorbs the Divine Tree and gets more powerful to the point he can fight both Naruto and Sasuke while only using 3 jutsu the whole fight.

Then he gets Both Rinnegan and is able to Stonewall SPSM Naruto, Rinnegan sasuke, and 100 healing Sakura at the same time low diff with Limbo.

Then He unlocks Rinne-sharingan Which is the strongest Dojutsu and is a Fusing of Rinnegan+Sharingan and has both Powers in one...The Same eye power that Hagoromo feared for his life and wanted Naruto and sasuke to prevent Madara from getting.


Yeah...Madara easily wins this fight with low diff.


He can spam Multi-Continental Juubi Damas

The Ten tails powers which put him close to Hagoromo level

Divine Tree which is even more powerful than the Ten tails itself and is the final form of it

Both Rinnegan giving him 4 Limbo cloneswhich Sasuke can't even touch since he doesn't have SPSM

Rinne-Sharingan which Hagoromo feared....

Yeah Madara wins He can easily just have the Divine Tree drain Sasuke of all his chakra and call it a day.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

@MYGod000 spittin fax. W like always.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> Lol, funny. But no, Rikkudo Madara stomps Sasuke, even with BPS included.



I was serious. 

Also, lol no. Sasuke is a tough fight (at the very least) for Juudara even without BPS, BPS makes it a curbstomp. I'm actually being generous to Juudara here, statwise Sasuke dominates him even without BPS with his VoTE2 feats. Keeping him dead was the only tricky part...and the Rinnegan has techniques that can help with that, many.


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I was serious.
> 
> Also, lol no. Sasuke is a tough fight (at the very least) for Juudara even without BPS, BPS makes it a curbstomp. I'm actually being generous to Juudara here, statwise Sasuke dominates him even without BPS with his VoTE2 feats. Keeping him dead was the only tricky part...and the Rinnegan has techniques that can help with that, many.



He isn't We have panel of Sasuke against Madara and the only thing Madara said was that Sasuke was still fast as always.



Nothing implied Sasuke would be a tough fight to him.

All that stuff with the Rinnegan requires Sasuke to be in CQC with Madara which we saw sasuke avoid that against Ten tails Madara.

Madara literally has the same thing and can do the same thing with His Rinnegan to sasuke.

Edit: If that isn't enough Casual CT From Ten tails Madara>>>>>>>>>>>>Casual CT From Rinnegan Sasuke




Vs



Sasuke CT

Judging that alone Madara is astronomically  more powerful than Rinnegan Sasuke.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I was serious.
> 
> Also, lol no. Sasuke is a tough fight (at the very least) for Juudara even without BPS, BPS makes it a curbstomp. I'm actually being generous to Juudara here, statwise Sasuke dominates him even without BPS with his VoTE2 feats.




Even Kakashi was like: "what the??"

so no


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Btw, I would like if u all come here:


Let's settle this once and for all and know who is right.


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## Fused (Mar 31, 2022)

See mods I don't understand why you locked my thread, here we literally see that the Pro Madara side provided multiple scans to prove their point, while the Anti Madara side literally doesn't have an ounce of evidence.

You can lock my thread but it's literally the truth.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> See mods I don't understand why you locked my thread, here we literally see that the Pro Madara side provided multiple scans to prove their point, while the Anti Madara side literally doesn't have an ounce of evidence.
> 
> You can lock my thread but it's literally the truth.


Fax.

Now I can't wait to expose the truth on this post.


try to bring people here plz

Reactions: Like 1


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## Fused (Mar 31, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Fax.
> 
> Now I can't wait to expose the truth on this post.
> 
> ...


I mean, you made that thread in a section that is unironically dead. Maybe make it in this section (Naruto Battledome), it will get more traction.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Fused said:


> I mean, you made that thread in a section that is unironically dead. Maybe make it in this section (Naruto Battledome), it will get more traction.


OK. But can U just share it? because i am too lazy to make another thread xD. but I might do it


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Done.


Now come here and let's settle this with only facts and evidence from the manga and databook.


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## Kaioh (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I was serious.
> 
> Also, lol no. Sasuke is a tough fight (at the very least) for Juudara even without BPS, BPS makes it a curbstomp. I'm actually being generous to Juudara here, statwise Sasuke dominates him even without BPS with his VoTE2 feats. Keeping him dead was the only tricky part...and the Rinnegan has techniques that can help with that, many.



I am sure that Sasuke would be a tough fight when Madara can take it this easy confronting him.




Sasuke is nowhere near dominating this version of Madara.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> I am sure that Sasuke would be a tough fight when Madara can take it this easy confronting him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So Sasuke took absolutely zero damage from Madara's Limbo clones, even without using Susano'o or his other powerful techniques?  

This actually helps my point, actually, as this is a weaker Sasuke (much weaker) than the one we see in VoTE2 - Kaguya fight Sasuke did a fair bit worse against Kaguya than Naruto did, yet VoTE2 Sasuke was faster than Naruto by a near-blitz gap  

Sasuke negged Madara's ultimate jutsu, the Mugen Tsukuyomi, and his Perfect Susano'o was able to keep Limbo clones away. They literally couldn't touch it. That's two of Madara's signature moves nullified for the price of one, lol.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

The problem is, I am willing to accept Juudara is stronger than Pre-VoTE2 Rinnegan Sasuke (not BPS Sasuke, however, not at all). I just don't see how. 

Kishimoto seems to have thrown Juudara out in favor of Kaguya so Naruto and Sasuke actually have a serious fight on their hands and to give Madara an out that doesn't involve him being humiliated further in combat


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## Anime Fan (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So Sasuke took absolutely zero damage from Madara's Limbo clones, even without using Susano'o or his other powerful techniques?


U realize that the whole point of the Limbos were to push them. right?
which they did. Sasuke got overpowered right there when he was seeing everything with his eye and tried to hit Madara.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> This actually helps my point, actually, as this is a weaker Sasuke (much weaker) than the one we see in VoTE2 - Kaguya fight Sasuke did a fair bit worse against Kaguya than Naruto did, yet VoTE2 Sasuke was faster than Naruto by a near-blitz gap


False. prove that Sasuke got stronger.
And Sasuke did not even blitz Naruto lmao. he used Amenotejikara from behind and even then, Naruto reacted and put his hand.


Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke negged Madara's ultimate jutsu, the Mugen Tsukuyomi, and his Perfect Susano'o was able to keep Limbo clones away. They literally couldn't touch it. That's two of Madara's signature moves nullified for the price of one, lol.


U realize that Rinnegan can counter Rinnegan Genjutsu in general lmfao. right?



And false, prove that the Limbo clones tried to touch the PS and failed. Go ahead.
if anything, Limbos were surrounding Naruto and Sasuke:

if anything, here is what Sasuke said about them:



He literally considered the Limbos a threat. lmao

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

@Anime Fan If you want proof Sasuke got stronger after the Kaguya fight, you should read the manga, kid 



I didn't deny Sasuke considered the Limbo clones a threat, but the fact remains, Sasuke also considered them unable to get through his Susano'o and Naruto's 4 clones were able to handle them. 

Love how you didn't even address the stuff about MT and Limbo being unable to get through Susano'o btw


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

Also, Black Zetsu was surprised Sasuke's Rinnegan Susano'o could counter MT, implying it's not exactly as simple as "have Rinnegan = counter MT". 

Sasuke's Rinnegan is stronger, period.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ludi (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> you want proof Sasuke got stronger after the Kaguya fight, you should read the manga


I mean, he only learned to use portals after Shippuden. So his tomoes Rinnegan mastery clearly became better over time


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## Aegon Targaryen (Mar 31, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I mean, he only learned to use portals after Shippuden. So his tomoes Rinnegan mastery clearly became better over time



True. Kurama basically states that Rinnegan users get stronger over time.


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Anime Fan If you want proof Sasuke got stronger after the Kaguya fight, you should read the manga, kid
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That doesn't say he got stronger...just that he got more familiar with the Abilities of his Rinnegan. That was from Watching Madara.

It doesn't address the fact that Sasuke Casual CT is Leagues smaller than JJ Madara's Casual CT. Nowhere in that Panel does it say Sasuke Was more powerful than before.


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## T-Bag (Mar 31, 2022)

Madara is narratively an opponent that can only be defeated via teamwork of both yin and yang working together.

Sasuke and Naruto cannot do it alone. It is inconceivable to even THINK so if one is aware of the foundational concepts Kishimoto put in place.

Reactions: Agree 5


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## MYGod000 (Mar 31, 2022)

Ludi said:


> I mean, he only learned to use portals after Shippuden. So his tomoes Rinnegan mastery clearly became better over time



That only implies his Mastery got better which is fine...but what good is Opening portals  in combat when it weakens you down to the point you're below Two kages?

That would be utterly useless jutsu against Kaguya the moment he uses it he weakened down...there no proof Sasuke Can Continuously rapid fire Spam that jutsu as well.

It decent outside of combat...But it useless against someone who is already way more powerful then you to start with and Weakening yourself just makes it that much easier to defeat you.

The jutsu Took him from  Transformed Momoshiki tier to The point he was struggling hard and had to run from Kinshiki.


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## ARGUS (Mar 31, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> it plot because Madara even without TSO was close to Hagoromo's Level even without the TSO he should have been handily stopping them.


When hags made the staetment madara still had his TSB 
not that it matters, because logically speaking DRJJ Madara w/no TSB >>> Pre SHinju 1RG madara w/TSB 


MYGod000 said:


> Naruto was making him struggle Even though He was slightly over 50% of Hagoromo and much weaker than Madara.


Naruto is actually abit below 50% hagoromo 
because if you jsut take the half of hagoromo, it would still be rinnegan and SPSM working in tandem, and those two powers working in tandem would violate the equivalent of just 1 power maxed out. And Kyuubi wont be making up for the other rinnegan he has, nor does its power even comapre to SPSM. 

not to mention that while hags gave alot of his yang to naruto, it wasnt completely 100% because when you expend 100% of your chakra you pretty much die, or in hags case disappear, but he was still present and even had enoughh to bring out the previous kage that enabled him to bring back team 7 


MYGod000 said:


> He could have still created them using BZ like Obito did.
> 
> it's not really gone forever.


Obito created a TSB staff and that was solely because he managed to get some SPSM chakra from madara so it reawakened, but thats different from the orbs floating behind yourr back, 
once the orbs are gone, they are gone for good. 
Madara couldnt bring the orbs back once they were teleported outsde of his range. 

THe only one who can create and would seem to never lose TSBs, would be kaguya 
since she pretty much created ETSB from thin air. odd that she doesnt carry them on her back


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## Csdabest (Apr 1, 2022)

JJ Madara was Approaching Kaguya Level after gaining Recreating Hagoromo Power. Sasuke didnt get statements of comparison to Hagamoro till he absorbed all 9 Bijuu chakra. Madara still has more chakra, durability, and Immortality over Sasuke aswell argubably more sustained destructive power.

The series destroyed Sasuke Character and Power progression to the point I dont think anyone can gather feats for Sasuke putting him up to compete with the God Tiers outside of his Rinne hax which he no longer has sadly.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

I have you on ignore now, @MYGod000. 

Just to let you know.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Csdabest said:


> JJ Madara was Approaching Kaguya Level after gaining Recreating Hagoromo Power. Sasuke didnt get statements of comparison to Hagamoro till he absorbed all 9 Bijuu chakra. Madara still has more chakra, durability, and Immortality over Sasuke aswell argubably more sustained destructive power.



Actually, he was approaching Hagoromo's level, not Kaguya's. Kaguya killed the guy with her farts, to quote WorldsStrongest. "Immortality" is all Madara has and if anyone's qualified to take it away, it's another Rinnegan user.  Sasuke does to Juudara what he did to the 9 Bijuu, and what Obito did to Juudara (albeit on a much, much smaller scale).

Sasuke has vastly better speed, hax, destructive power, and durability, and canonically handled all of Juudara's trump cards - Limbo couldn't get through Perfect Susano'o or even wound Sasuke himself and MT got negged by PS too. That's *without* even using BPS and before any of his VoTE2 gains. Dude also nigh-blitzed SPSM Naruto with Ameno, the Naruto who was able to dodge Kaguya's own Ameno attempts twice and even blitz a weakened Kaguya, who would at worst still scale to Juudara.


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## Fused (Apr 1, 2022)

Lol at all the clowns here who think Sasuke's teleportation is somehow a problem for Madara.

Madara literally read that technique like a book and figured it out how it works intrinsically in literally 5 seconds, while fighting Sasuke. He literally hard-counters it on-screen just by *flying away*, after which Sasuke never attempts to use it in battle against him ever again.

The scan of Madara figuring out thoroughly how teleportation works:




And the scan of Madara completely hard-countering the teleportation on-screen by simply flying away, a basic property that the Ten Tails Jinchuuriki possesses:






You have to be a literal clown bozo to think any of Sasuke's techniques are a problem for Madara.

His strongest technique, the teleportation technique, was casually countered by Madara switching places with Limbo and then flying away.

In addition to this, Madara is extremely cunning, able to read his opponent like an open book, he easily figures out what strategy Sasuke is going to do and plans a counter-strategy accordingly. It is stated by Kishimoto himself that, while even the strongest ninja have weaknesses, Madara Uchiha has no weakness. Concede that Saucegay stands no chance against him.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Fused said:


> Lol at all the clowns here who think Sasuke's teleportation is somehow a problem for Madara.
> 
> Madara literally read that technique like a book and figured it out how it works intrinsically in literally 5 seconds, while fighting Sasuke. He literally hard-counters it on-screen just by *flying away*, after which Sasuke never attempts to use it in battle against him ever again.
> 
> ...



This was before Sasuke himself mastered his teleportation technique lmao. 

VoTE2 Sasuke is much faster and smarter in using it, he's not gonna make the same mistakes.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Fused (Apr 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> This was before Sasuke himself mastered his teleportation technique lmao.
> 
> VoTE2 Sasuke is much faster and smarter in using it, he's not gonna make the same mistakes.


And this was before Madara got a second Rinnegan and a Rinnesharingan bozo.

Final Form Madara is simply going to gang bang Sasuke with his 4 Limbo clones that Sasuke has no way of affecting, since he doesn't have Six Paths Rikudou form.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Fused said:


> And this was before Madara got a second Rinnegan and a Rinnesharingan bozo.



No, VoTE2 was _after_ that, actually. 

Read the manga. It'll do you some good in debates.


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## Fused (Apr 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, VoTE2 was _after_ that, actually.
> 
> Read the manga. It'll do you some good in debates.


No, I mean Madara completely hard-countering that weak technique was before he got 50% of the remaining power-ups he had.

Are you trolling me or are you actually serious, please tell me it's the former


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Fused said:


> No, I mean Madara completely hard-countering that weak technique was before he got 50% of the remaining power-ups he had



You mean those remaining power-ups Sasuke trolled easily (4 Limbo clones trolled by PS, MT also trolled by PS, and Chibaku Tensei...still trolled by PS)?  

And that's before SASUKE got at least a 50% boost in strength himself?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Subtle (Apr 1, 2022)

Sasuke isn't at a level where he can compete, even with the addition of Naruto, they would still lose. Sasuke doesn't have a chance.

Portions of the Juubi's power (recreated from Biju) enhanced him tremendously while Madara's (own) power exceeds the Juubi's power.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Apr 1, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> When hags made the staetment madara still had his TSB
> not that it matters, because logically speaking DRJJ Madara w/no TSB >>> Pre SHinju 1RG madara w/TSB



Okay that reasonable  About TSB When Hagoromo Made the statement...Like I said He can easily Just Make TSO





When Naruto Attacked him he turned His TSO into a Staff to block Naruto's Punch.


Naruto is actually abit below 50% hagoromo








ARGUS said:


> because if you jsut take the half of hagoromo, it would still be rinnegan and SPSM working in tandem, and those two powers working in tandem would violate the equivalent of just 1 power maxed out. And Kyuubi wont be making up for the other rinnegan he has, nor does its power even comapre to SPSM.
> 
> not to mention that while hags gave alot of his yang to naruto, it wasnt completely 100% because when you expend 100% of your chakra you pretty much die, or in hags case disappear, but he was still present and even had enoughh to bring out the previous kage that enabled him to bring back team 7


That a fair Assessment.

True He did still have the power to Bring Back the Edo Kages...but that was from  Him Manifesting from Juubi Madara.

One thing can be clear here It wasn't Base Hagoromo...Because he is only half of the chakra fruit that the juubi created not the Juubi itself. We can still conclude here that Ghost Hagoromo is at least>Alive Base Hagoromo. 


Considering The Last Naruto proves in the prolong that Base Hagoromo didn't have SPSM until after he absorb the Ten tails.





We can still conclude here it was JJ Hagoromo that Madara was close to in power not base.


ARGUS said:


> Obito created a TSB staff and that was solely because he managed to get some SPSM chakra from madara so it reawakened, but thats different from the orbs floating behind yourr back,
> once the orbs are gone, they are gone for good.
> Madara couldnt bring the orbs back once they were teleported outsde of his range.



Yes, and i just showed you Madara Creating a TSB Staff to attack Obito and stop them from destroying his Rinnegan.


ARGUS said:


> THe only one who can create and would seem to never lose TSBs, would be kaguya
> since she pretty much created ETSB from thin air. odd that she doesnt carry them on her back


Well if Kaguya can Create them from Thin Air why can't The Man who is Just like Kaguya not do the same?  We have panels of him Creating Turning TSB into Staff/Rod

Then we have him Creating another to stop Obito and Sakura.

Let me retract that Statement it seems i was wrong Madara always had at least one TSO left  that he used...but i'll say it again why Can't Madara create them since He just like Kaguya and has Rinne-Sharingan the strongest eye?


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## MYGod000 (Apr 1, 2022)

Subtle said:


> Sasuke isn't at a level where he can compete, even with the addition of Naruto, they would still lose. Sasuke doesn't have a chance.
> 
> Portions of the Juubi's power (recreated from Biju) enhanced him tremendously while Madara's (own) power exceeds the Juubi's power.


Exactly.


People here are talking about Sasuke Teleportation is going to make a difference...he had his chance but he ran from Madara so that his eye wouldn't have gotten Stolen from him by Madara.

Sasuke had 1-9 Bijuu. However, Ten tails is more powerful than the 1-9 bijuu.



Ten tails>>>All 9 Bijuu power put together

Then We have Edo Madara's own power Which is stated to be Vast in it's own right.  Even the Otsutsuki on the moon are stated in the novel to have Vast chakra...The only difference here Edo Madara and Hashirama Are weaker than Past VOTE Self This is stated.






put that in with Ten tails+Divine Tree which is greater than the Juubi and Both Rinnegan+Rinne-Sharingan which is the strongest Dojutsu....then Sasuke Easily Get low diff by Madara.

It might even be a negg Diff.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Kaioh (Apr 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> So Sasuke took absolutely zero damage from Madara's Limbo clones, even without using Susano'o or his other powerful techniques?



Those Rinbo clones were used purely as a defensive maneuver, Sasuke never tanked them in full offensive. The whole idea of them was to repel Sakura and the rest, and they did so perfectly without Madara moving an inch and while standing still in the manga. I don't see how this discredits Madara in any shape or form, when it's the exact opposite - Madara makes the kids look weak by comparison by repelling them without even having to move his body.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This actually helps my point, actually, as this is a weaker Sasuke (much weaker) than the one we see in VoTE2 - Kaguya fight Sasuke did a fair bit worse against Kaguya than Naruto did, yet VoTE2 Sasuke was faster than Naruto by a near-blitz gap



Sasuke in VotE2 isn't stronger than the Sasuke fighting Kaguya and Rikkudo Madara. Actually, he is much weaker. What VotE2 Sasuke has over Sasuke fighting Rikkudo Madara/Kaguya is more experience with rinnegan, which allowed him to use rinnegan abilities that he couldn't use before. The reason why Sasuke fighting Kaguya/Rikkudo Madara is stronger than VotE2 Sasuke is the fact that he had Rikkudo Sennin's moon seal, which boosted Sasuke's power tremendously beyond just giving him the ability to perform Rikkudo Chibaku Tensei together with Naruto.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Sasuke negged Madara's ultimate jutsu, the Mugen Tsukuyomi, and his Perfect Susano'o was able to keep Limbo clones away. They literally couldn't touch it. That's two of Madara's signature moves nullified for the price of one, lol.



I don't remember Madara's Rinbo attacking Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o at any point. As far as I know, they weren't even doing anything aside from being on a standby. In fact, Sasuke told Naruto to not go outside his Susano'o while Mugen Tsukuyomi was still active and warned him about Madara's 4 shadows. Sasuke negged Mugen Tsukuyomi only with his Perfect Susano'o. Why didn't Madara bother attacking Sasuke to expose him to Mugen Tsukuyomi's light is anybody's guess, but none of this proves that either VotE2 Sasuke or Moon Seal Sasuke could take Rikkudo Madara with both rinnegans unleashed on his own, narratively it's been shown that Sasuke and Naruto only had a chance as a 2v1 against Rikkudo Madara. From the small sample of feats we've gotten, Rikkudo Madara was toying with team 7 the whole time until the very end, since he was never given the opportunity to fight for real due to Black Zetsu getting in the way.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The problem is, I am willing to accept Juudara is stronger than Pre-VoTE2 Rinnegan Sasuke (not BPS Sasuke, however, not at all). I just don't see how.
> 
> Kishimoto seems to have thrown Juudara out in favor of Kaguya so Naruto and Sasuke actually have a serious fight on their hands and to give Madara an out that doesn't involve him being humiliated further in combat



The opposite, actually. Kishimoto removed Madara in such a disrespectful manner because Kaguya was easier for Naruto and Sasuke to beat. Not by the virtue of chakra levels, but by the virtue of Kaguya's garbage intelligence and skills.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> Those Rinbo clones were used purely as a defensive maneuver, Sasuke never tanked them in full offensive. The whole idea of them was to repel Sakura and the rest, and they did so perfectly without Madara moving an inch and while standing still in the manga. I don't see how this discredits Madara in any shape or form, when it's the exact opposite - Madara makes the kids look weak by comparison by repelling them without even having to move his body.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Bro, none of your arguments even make sense  

What kind of an excuse even is "Limbo was used defensively to repel Sakura and the others"?. Like, what exactly stops the clones from repelling AND attacking both...unless they're just too weak to do so? Failing to do anything to fucking Sakura is an anti-feat, by the way.

The argument "Madara didn't even need to use his true body" is laughable too when Limbo is literally one of his strongest jutsu and failed to do jack to Sasuke (who himself *wasn't even using any jutsu*) or even Sakura. _Madara_ looks weak here.

Like, absolutely nothing states Sasuke got weaker before VoTE2, and the only statement we do have is about him getting STRONGER at using the Rinnegan. The Moon Seal did fuck all for Sasuke other than amp one Chidori (which he never used anyway) and use RCT. The burden of proof is on you to prove Sasuke got weaker. Inb4 "his Perfect Susano'o made a smaller boom in VoTE2"  

Wrong. Naruto and Sasuke handled each and every jutsu Juudara threw at them without the experience they had during or after the Kaguya fight and, while wary, were never in danger at any point. This they also did without Naruto even needing his Kurama avatar or Bijuu amps and Sasuke obviously not needing BPS either. 

Madara's Limbo were literally right outside Sasuke's PS and never attacked it at any point, even though Madara made it clear he wanted to kill the bros. Sasuke implied those clones could not permeate PS and feats actually back that up (they couldn't kill fucking Sakura lmao). Sasuke countering MT with PS still happened and he did it fairly easily. The narrative "Madara was toying with Naruto and Sasuke till the end" ignores that Madara tossed all his best jutsu at them and failed to land a scratch, and ignores their performance against a vastly stronger opponent and the gains they made after the fight (which you're obviously in denial about, of course). 

Nice try, but no. Kaguya was way stronger in terms of stats and actual abilities and her dimension shifts actually pretty much killed Sasuke and Naruto by themselves. It's made evidently clear she's on another level of raw power and her hax is far beyond Madara's fodder Limbo clones.


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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 1, 2022)

They're pretty close in strength, in my opinion

*Scaling:*
Adult Sasuke > BPS Sasuke >= 3R Jūbi Madara > WA Rinnegan Sasuke > 1R Jūbi Madara

It's not an easy fight either way. It depends how you interpret Hagoromo's statement of pre-Shinjū 1R JJ Madara being close to him in power - whether that applies to him in base or as a Jūbi Jin is hard to decipher

What version of himself do you think Hag was referring to? @ObitoOfTheOrangeMask

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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

Sasuke is winning in the polls  

I know popularity isn't an indication of correctness. I'm just happy that that many people woke up to and realized the truth, especially when trolls, ignoramuses, and some misguided intelligent people abound in this forum and the Naruto fanbase as a whole


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## Kaioh (Apr 1, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> What kind of an excuse even is "Limbo was used defensively to repel Sakura and the others"?. Like, what exactly stops the clones from repelling AND attacking both...unless they're just too weak to do so? Failing to do anything to fucking Sakura is an anti-feat, by the way.



I mean, have you ever considered the idea that Madara was simply *holding back* against them?  Heck, he even said "Enough with the sideshow" after he repelled them with Rinbo, he clearly wasn't taking them seriously.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> The argument "Madara didn't even need to use his true body" is laughable too when Limbo is literally one of his strongest jutsu and failed to do jack to Sasuke (who himself *wasn't even using any jutsu*) or even Sakura. _Madara_ looks weak here.



I disagree.



No matter how you slice this, Madara looks like a god here, standing still and effortlessly neg diffing the children that tried to approach him. Also Sakura was in byakugo and tanked a Gudodama moments earlier, so I don't see how that's an anti-feat of any capacity, especially with Madara holding back on all of them.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Like, absolutely nothing states Sasuke got weaker before VoTE2, and the only statement we do have is about him getting STRONGER at using the Rinnegan. The Moon Seal did fuck all for Sasuke other than amp one Chidori (which he never used anyway) and use RCT. The burden of proof is on you to prove Sasuke got weaker. Inb4 "his Perfect Susano'o made a smaller boom in VoTE2"



It was stated by Hagoromo that he had given Sasuke power on multiple occasions.


*Spoiler*: _Rikkudo giving Sasuke power_ 








And he went on to say that the seals he had given Naruto and Sasuke had vast amount of chakra.



Obviously the seals were a massive boost to both Naruto and Sasuke. The seals holding massive amounts of chakra went back to Hagoromo, of course they both have gotten weaker immediately as a result of it, since they ended up losing the seals as a power source. Now before you say that Hagoromo was referring to awakening Sasuke's rinnegan when he talked about giving him power, that has nothing to do with it. Sasuke had the necessary prerequisites to awaken rinnegan on his own, which is having both Indra and Ashura powers (In Sasuke's rendition, it was his DNA and eyes combined with Hashirama's DNA received from Kabuto). Madara awoke his rinnegan on his own, (granted, it took him practically a lifetime, but still) Sasuke would've been able to do the same regardless. Hagoromo at most awakened the eye for Sasuke instantly, but the true power he gave him was the moon seal.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wrong. Naruto and Sasuke handled each and every jutsu Juudara threw at them without the experience they had during or after the Kaguya fight and, while wary, were never in danger at any point. This they also did without Naruto even needing his Kurama avatar or Bijuu amps and Sasuke obviously not needing BPS either.



Rikkudo Madara threw several casually created Chibaku Tensei meteors at Naruto and Sasuke to slow them down and to buy enough time to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi, that was the whole point of it, and it worked out perfectly as far as I'm concerned for Madara, since he got to cast Mugen Tsukuyomi uninterrupted. As for Rinbo: Hengoku, that jutsu was never truly defeated by them. Naruto created a couple of kage bunshin to fight them, and while Naruto's clones used actual jutsu against Rinbo (meanwhile Rinbo used only taijutsu), they couldn't win. In fact, it's suggested that Rinbo clones won that encounter, since they were still standing and Naruto's clones were nowhere to be found. Aside from these two jutsus, Rikkudo Madara didn't get the chance to use anything else upon reaching his full power. They didn't really handle much of Madara's arsenal that's worth mentioning. Naruto didn't need any Kyuubi avatars since he was using a far superior power known as Rikkudo Sennin mode with the sun seal, which is stated in the databook to surpass Kurama Mode even at base level, which he combined with Kyuubi's power and also utilized other bijuu as needed. Sasuke couldn't even use BPS for obvious reasons.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Madara's Limbo were literally right outside Sasuke's PS and never attacked it at any point, even though Madara made it clear he wanted to kill the bros. Sasuke implied those clones could not permeate PS and feats actually back that up (they couldn't kill fucking Sakura lmao). Sasuke countering MT with PS still happened and he did it fairly easily. The narrative "Madara was toying with Naruto and Sasuke till the end" ignores that Madara tossed all his best jutsu at them and failed to land a scratch, and ignores their performance against a vastly stronger opponent and the gains they made after the fight (which you're obviously in denial about, of course).



The hell? When did Sasuke imply that Rinbo can't go through Perfect Susano'o? Scans please. Also when did Madara throw all his best jutsu at them? Like I had said earlier, he wasn't serious with Rinbo, his Chibaku Tensei was for stalling and his Mugen Tsukuyomi was blocked by Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o, which is like the only instance of them pulling through a really threatening jutsu from Rikkudo Madara.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Nice try, but no. Kaguya was way stronger in terms of stats and actual abilities and her dimension shifts actually pretty much killed Sasuke and Naruto by themselves. It's made evidently clear she's on another level of raw power and her hax is far beyond Madara's fodder Limbo clones.



Yeah, see, her power was undermined by her lackluster intelligence and poor skills, she legit got owned by a comedic relief reverse Harem no jutsu from Naruto. She also got destroyed by Sakura's punch, which Madara neg diffed without issues (by the way, if Sakura doing anything is considered an anti-feat, then Kaguya getting destroyed by her punch is a massive anti-feat too honestly). As an opponent, Madara was far more dangerous since he wouldn't fall for such garbage.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 1, 2022)

@Kaioh

Madara holding back against them is *headcanon*, the fact remains that he used his best jutsu (PS aside) and they were all countered by Naruto and Sasuke who _ACTUALLY_ were holding back.

Naruto didn't use his Kurama avatar, much less AA, and Sasuke didn't use Enton or Chidori to amp his Perfect Susano'o. On top of that, neither Naruto nor Sasuke, had reached their Kaguya fight or post-Kaguya fight strength.

It's not a "neg diff" if *A) you're using one of your best techniques* and *B) you do absolutely jack shit to your enemies who THEMSELVES aren't doing so*. Byakugo users are not truly immortal and Sakura at this point should have been a bug compared to Madara, he should've killed her easily.

Hagoromo made it clear the power he granted Naruto and Sasuke was *permanent*, i.e., not limited to the seals. He literally compares it to how he gave Ashura all his power last time, which too was permanent and had fuck all to do with sealing any opponents. Hagoromo states this when he mentions how *even though he gave two people power this time, they still ended up fighting like Ashura and Indra did (which was when he empowered only one)*. This comment would make _zero sense_ if he only granted Naruto and Sasuke power _temporarily_, for obvious reasons.

He's also not referring to the seals when he specifies "vast amount of chakra", he's referring to literally giving Naruto and Sasuke half his power for the long haul. The seals were useless for 99% of the fight, they got more done WITHOUT them (until the literal end) lmao. Stop making things up.

Your argument about the Kurama avatar is straight up _nonsense_, frankly. A *SPSM amped Kurama avatar >>> a SPSM amped Naruto* (just as a Six Paths amped PS >>> a Six Paths amped Sasuke). You have no proof the Madara clones won - for all we know, MT took them out. You also have no proof Naruto's clones used jutsu against the Limbo clones, they just used Taijutsu themselves, and you sidestepped the fact MT ultimately did jack shit to Naruto and Sasuke...just as I stated earlier. So, Naruto and Sasuke effectively handled EVERYTHING Madara had to offer, except his PS - which they could beat anyway with Iso or, of course, either AA or BPS.

That Harem Jutsu did fuck all to Kaguya and she got away easily, did you even read the fight? Madara would have _actually lost there_, nothing implies he'd be any less surprised by the stunt. Sakura's punch didn't destroy shit, it only broke her horn which has no durability feats worth mentioning (for comparison, Juudara's "horn" was also broken by the first Sekizo step, even though his actual body could survive the vastly superior Yagai). Madara already _failed_ to kill Sakura with a DELIBERATE attempt and with far less of a distraction (just Sasuke), Kaguya at least _wasn't even trying against Sakur_a and was actively on the run from Naruto and Sasuke both and had her portals negged by DMS Kakashi.


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## Monarch (Apr 2, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> They're pretty close in strength, in my opinion
> 
> *Scaling:*
> Adult Sasuke > BPS Sasuke >= 3R Jūbi Madara > WA Rinnegan Sasuke > 1R Jūbi Madara
> ...


Most likely his base form, as he wasn't JJ at that time.

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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 2, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Most likely his base form, as he wasn't JJ at that time.


Fair enough.

Then is it fair to therefore rank 3R Jūbi Madara above base Hagoromo if not significantly so? He absorbed the Shinjū and two additional Rinnegan eyes, each of which is a massive power-up canonically

Reactions: Like 1


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## Monarch (Apr 2, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> Then is it fair to therefore rank 3R Jūbi Madara above base Hagoromo if not significantly so? He absorbed the Shinjū and two additional Rinnegan eyes, each of which is a massive power-up canonically


I'd say so yeah.

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## ATastyMuffin (Apr 2, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I'd say so yeah.


True

How does your scaling of Naruto/Sasuke/Madara/Hagoromo/Hamura look like, all versions?

*For me:*
Baryon Naruto >> Adult Naruto/Sasuke ~ Jūbi Hagoromo/TCM Hamura > AA Naruto/BPS Sasuke ~ 3R Jūbi Madara > TL Naruto/Sasuke > WA Naruto/WA Sasuke ~ Base Hagoromo/Hamura > 1R Jūbi Madara

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## Monarch (Apr 2, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> True
> 
> How does your scaling of Naruto/Sasuke/Madara/Hagoromo/Hamura look like, all versions?
> 
> ...


Very similar to that with the only difference that I put JJ Hagoromo and TCM Hamura above Adult bros, but not by a large margin.

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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 2, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> Very similar to that with the only difference that I put JJ Hagoromo and TCM Hamura above Adult bros, but not by a large margin.



Wait, you think Juudara > FP Teen Bros?


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 2, 2022)

ObitoOfTheOrangeMask said:


> I believe it's arguable based on portrayal, by FP you mean BPS and AA?
> 
> Because if that's the case, I'd be inclined to give them the edge.



Yeah, I meant BPS and AA. 

Fair


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## Tsukuyomi (Apr 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yeah, I meant BPS and AA.
> 
> Fair


To me I think it was referring to JJ Hags. 
So in my opinion it is like :

AA Naruto~BPS Sasuke~JJ Hags>>Post Kaguya Fight SPSM Nardo>Post Kaguya Fight Rikudo Sauce >3R Juubidara>>Base Hags~2R Juubidara~SPSM Naruto(Initial) ~Rikudo Sauce~Base, Hags.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Lewd 1 | Dislike 1


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## MYGod000 (Apr 2, 2022)

Code said:


> To me I think it was referring to JJ Hags.
> So in my opinion it is like :
> 
> AA Naruto~BPS Sasuke~JJ Hags>>Post Kaguya Fight SPSM Nardo>Post Kaguya Fight Rikudo Sauce >3R Juubidara>>Base Hags~2R Juubidara~SPSM Naruto(Initial) ~Rikudo Sauce~Base, Hags.



^This is some huge Wank.



Dude Literally said out his mouth that in his opinion BPS Sasuke>JJ Hagoromo.

I like Sasuke  a lot myself but you have you use some form of logic...Kurama wasn't Talking about Sasuke Chakra level being At Hagoromo level. He was talking about his chakra control and being able to merge the Dissembled chakra into one using His PS as the container for that chakra.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

ATastyMuffin said:


> They're pretty close in strength, in my opinion
> 
> *Scaling:*
> Adult Sasuke > BPS Sasuke >= 3R Jūbi Madara > WA Rinnegan Sasuke > 1R Jūbi Madara
> ...


My scaling:
3R Juubi Madara > 2R Juubi Madara > BPS Sasuke > 1R Juubi Madara (Post-God Tree) > Rinnegan Sasuke > 1R Juubi Madara (Pre-God Tree).

And Hagoromo sucks:

U can read these 3 posts for more details and then tell me ur thoughts.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Let's all ignore these scans yea.






*今のマダラがまさにそれだ。。。まるで母のカグヤの様だ "Right now, Madara is exactly like that... He's like Mother Kaguya." インドラの転生者を終えた今は十尾の力を得てワシにちかづき "Indra's current reincarnation gained the Ten Tails (Juubi) power, a power close to mine." 母カグヤの力にさえ近づこうとしている " now he's even getting closer to the power of Mother Kaguya."*









And before someone tells me the game is not canon:


1:48 timestamp

Kishimoto himself worked on the game

And he was involved in it too.









So I REALLY don't understand why this desperate baseless Hagoromo wank.

Even JJ Obito got a statement like this:



So yeah. Madara did surpass Hagoromo in the end. deal with it.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## Fused (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Let's all ignore these scans yea.


Superb post, you have found pieces of evidence that I didn't even know existed, well done.

Unfortunately for you, the Madara hating tards here are blind and are allergic to evidence of any kind (which also explains why they never present "their evidence"), so your post is doomed to be ignored anyway.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Fused said:


> Superb post, you have found pieces of evidence that I didn't even know existed, well done.
> 
> Unfortunately for you, the Madara hating tards here are blind and are allergic to evidence of any kind (which also explains why they never present "their evidence"), so your post is doomed to be ignored anyway.


Sadly yeah, I even addressed the Hagoromo wank in these posts:




I tell them to read all of them before returning here but they seem to not do it sadly for some reason. (i highly recommend u to read all of them too if u did not)

Hagoromo sucks.


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## Kaioh (Apr 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Kaioh
> 
> Madara holding back against them is *headcanon*, the fact remains that he used his best jutsu (PS aside) and they were all countered by Naruto and Sasuke who _ACTUALLY_ were holding back.



Him saying "enough with the sideshow" is headcanon?  Naruto and Sasuke never defeated Rinbo after Madara regained his second rinnegan back and unleashed his true power, so I'm not even sure what are you talking about.




Aegon Targaryen said:


> Naruto didn't use his Kurama avatar, much less AA, and Sasuke didn't use Enton or Chidori to amp his Perfect Susano'o. On top of that, neither Naruto nor Sasuke, had reached their Kaguya fight or post-Kaguya fight strength.



Madara didn't use anywhere near his full power either, lol. Like I had already said, he got stopped by Black Zetsu before doing anything meaningful.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It's not a "neg diff" if *A) you're using one of your best techniques* and *B) you do absolutely jack shit to your enemies who THEMSELVES aren't doing so*. Byakugo users are not truly immortal and Sakura at this point should have been a bug compared to Madara, he should've killed her easily.



"You're using one of your best techniques", bruh, Rinbo are just clones from an alternate world, you're pretending as if they were a guaranteed one-shot jutsu like chidori or amaterasu or the likes (though from the feats from earlier we know they're capable of so much more than simply repelling attacks, since one Rinbo clone effortlessly knocked away all the bijuu when Madara was in his base form with Hashirama's senjutsu and with just one rinnegan, so that should be enough proof the Rinbo weren't going all-out against Naruto and Sasuke.). You're also ignoring the fact that Naruto jumped in to grab Sakura. As you can see in the scan I posted above, the Rinbo hit Naruto's leg rather than landing a direct hit on Sakura, so we actually don't even know what would happen should she take a direct hit from a Rinbo, it's all speculation.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Hagoromo made it clear the power he granted Naruto and Sasuke was *permanent*, i.e., not limited to the seals. He literally compares it to how he gave Ashura all his power last time, which too was permanent and had fuck all to do with sealing any opponents. Hagoromo states this when he mentions how *even though he gave two people power this time, they still ended up fighting like Ashura and Indra did (which was when he empowered only one)*. This comment would make _zero sense_ if he only granted Naruto and Sasuke power _temporarily_, for obvious reasons.



Except we don't know all the fine details about Indra and Ashura either. Actually, we don't know almost anything about them to begin with. In one manga scan we're just shown that Indra has a perfect susano'o of his own, and Ashura has a unique avatar that looks like an application of the kyuubi transformation (hinting at Ashura being the kyuubi jinchuuriki perhaps? Though this is not stated either, so again, a speculation.). Hagoromo had the power to instantly awaken Sasuke's rinnegan, but the thing is, Sasuke needed all the prerequisites to obtain it in the first place, which is combining Indra's and Ashura's power and bringing out Rikkudo power. Even without meeting Hagoromo, Sasuke would've been able to awaken rinnegan, since Madara managed to do the same exact thing and he never had met Hagoromo in his life. Naruto needed the chakra of all the bijuu to be able to obtain and use Rikkudo Sennin mode, he was a pseudo jinchuuriki of all the bijuu as stated by the manga.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> He's also not referring to the seals when he specifies "vast amount of chakra", he's referring to literally giving Naruto and Sasuke half his power for the long haul. The seals were useless for 99% of the fight, they got more done WITHOUT them (until the literal end) lmao. Stop making things up.



And yet, Hagoromo was unable to summon them from Kaguya's dimension until he got his seals back, owing it to the fact that he had given out his chakra away as stated in the scan I posted earlier.



In the databook, it's even stated that Rikkudo Chibaku Tensei uses a large amount of chakra to seal its target away.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Your argument about the Kurama avatar is straight up _nonsense_, frankly. A *SPSM amped Kurama avatar >>> a SPSM amped Naruto* (just as a Six Paths amped PS >>> a Six Paths amped Sasuke). You have no proof the Madara clones won - for all we know, MT took them out. You also have no proof Naruto's clones used jutsu against the Limbo clones, they just used Taijutsu themselves, and you sidestepped the fact MT ultimately did jack shit to Naruto and Sasuke...just as I stated earlier. So, Naruto and Sasuke effectively handled EVERYTHING Madara had to offer, except his PS - which they could beat anyway with Iso or, of course, either AA or BPS.



Except the databook states that Kurama mode allows Naruto and Kyuubi to unleash *all of their power.*



Comparing a Perfect Susano'o to a Kyuubi avatar is a terrible analogy since Sasuke doesn't have a miniature version of Perfect Susano'o the same way Naruto has Kurama mode for Kyuubi, and in your example he doesn't even have any Susano'o active to begin with, making it even worse. The databook also states that Rikkudo Sennin mode surpasses this same Kurama mode, you know, the mode allowing Naruto and Kyuubi to use all of their power, even at base level, which is how Naruto managed to perform the dangerous stunt of kicking a Gudodama, which was only possible thanks to the enormous chakra provided by the mode, and Naruto combined Kyuubi with this same Rikkudo Sennin mode upon reuniting with Sasuke and kept using it all the way throughout the Madara and Kaguya fights.

Also as for your clone argument...



In this scan, we can clearly see the clones using rasengans against Rikkudo Madara's Rinbo, they were inferior to them. I will admit that there's no direct proof of Rinbo defeating the clones, hence I said it was just suggested. However, I just find it weird that Naruto would want to go outside of Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o if his clones got neg diffed by Mugen Tsukuyomi, as all the experience of kage bunshin is transferred to the owner upon dying. If the clones succumbed to the jutsu, I'd think Naruto would be aware of how deadly Mugen Tsukuyomi is and wouldn't want to go outside while it was still active.

I didn't side step the fact that Sasuke beat Mugen Tsukuyomi. In fact I acknowledged that it was the only serious jutsu from Madara they managed to overcome, since both Rinbo and casual Chibaku Tensei meteors were treated as distractions and means of buying time. Overall, them barely beating Mugen Tsukuyomi has no bearing on the fact that Madara was vastly superior to both Naruto and Sasuke.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> That Harem Jutsu did fuck all to Kaguya and she got away easily, did you even read the fight? Madara would have _actually lost there_, nothing implies he'd be any less surprised by the stunt. Sakura's punch didn't destroy shit, it only broke her horn which has no durability feats worth mentioning (for comparison, Juudara's "horn" was also broken by the first Sekizo step, even though his actual body could survive the vastly superior Yagai). Madara already _failed_ to kill Sakura with a DELIBERATE attempt and with far less of a distraction (just Sasuke), Kaguya at least _wasn't even trying against Sakur_a and was actively on the run from Naruto and Sasuke both and had her portals negged by DMS Kakashi.



Kaguya only managed to escape with Amenominaka and by trapping Naruto and Sasuke in the ice world, lol, reverse harem was far too effective for a comedic relief. How the hell would Madara lose to a harem jutsu? Him falling for it is already a big stretch, and even if he somehow fell for the jutsu (which is a ridiculous notion to begin with), he had plenty of ways of dealing with the threat.

Sakura didn't destroy shit you say?



Look at Kaguya's face, lmao, all bruised and swollen in the place where she got punched. I'm sorry, but this is a huge anti-feat for Kaguya, since Sakura doing anything is an anti-feat apparently. What makes it even worse is the fact that Sakura did this much damage with her byakugo seal inactive (meaning her striking strength was lower). Madara took zero damage from Gai's 7th gate before even regaining his second rinnegan and obtaining shinju, and took on 8th gate Gai respectably well in the same conditions, he makes Kaguya look fragile by comparison.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

@Kaioh literally anyone who uses the clones vs limbo argument is just so desperate to downplay.

I already addressed this here:



Ow. and I wonder what does "Enough with this sideshow" imply here when he said it twice:





Heck, Zetsu even said he will record their deaths and that all what's left is to get rid of them:



Translation: "Heh heh, I guess I'll just record their death/the death of these guys"


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## Fused (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Hagoromo sucks


Yeah, he's incredibly wanked and overrated here.

The guy is literally nothing special, he's an Average Joe.

It took him and his brother months to seal the wild Juubi when the Alliance of Shinobi fodders could do it in one evening, the same Alliance that was solo'd by Madara.

Hagoromo is really nothing special, he's incredibly average, basic, and overwanked (here).

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Kaioh (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> @Kaioh literally anyone who uses the clones vs limbo argument is just so desperate to downplay.
> 
> I already addressed this here:
> 
> ...



Honestly, it surprises me how downplayed Madara is around these parts. The guy is genuinely strong, yet people here claim that Sasuke/Naruto could've killed him solo after this fight or whatever, it's all strange to me.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> Honestly, it surprises me how downplayed Madara is around these parts. The guy is genuinely strong, yet people here claim that Sasuke/Naruto could've killed him solo after this fight or whatever, it's all strange to me.


It is called bias and slander. Simple. XD


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## Fused (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> @Kaioh literally anyone who uses the clones vs limbo argument is just so desperate to downplay.


What's funny is that later on we see that Naruto clones completely vanished and Team 7 was surrounded by Limbo Clones:




So this is ultimate, undeniable, conclusive proof that Madara's Limbo completely destroyed Naruto's Shadow clones, yet people here will act like it was a close fight or Madara's Limbo were actually weaker lol.

Even though Sasuke outright states that they are surrounded by Limbo Clones, which means that Madara's clones won.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Fused said:


> What's funny is that later on we see that Naruto clones completely vanished and Team 7 was surrounded by Limbo Clones:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep. i mentioned that too in the link xD.


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## Fused (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Yep. i mentioned that too in the link xD.


Right, right, well I'm glad that your work is appreciated over on Quora (congrats on getting that many upvotes), it definitely makes me happy and relaxed to know that Madara is not so underplayed in other, more popular, more prestigious debating platforms.

I guess this little forum is just an outlier

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Fused said:


> Right, right, well I'm glad that your work is appreciated over on Quora (congrats on getting that many upvotes), it definitely makes me happy and relaxed to know that Madara is not so underplayed in other, more popular, more prestigious debating platforms.
> 
> I guess this little forum is just an outlier


Thanx. I just made a quora post since it is going to be saved xD. 

And what I really want to debate about is this post.


Can't wait to dismantle the Hagoromo wank forever xD.


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## Ludi (Apr 2, 2022)

It's funny people use "it took them months" to beat the opponent as argument for why Hagoromo might not be very strong, which is anime only, but then still refer to what they defeat as wild juubi, while they defeated human kaguya in that same episode of the anime

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Ludi said:


> It's funny people use "it took them months" to beat the opponent as argument for why Hagoromo might not be very strong, which is anime only, but then still refer to what they defeat as wild juubi, while they defeated human kaguya in that same episode of the anime


No one said so tbf. and yeah, it did not take months for Hagoromo to beat the Juubi. the time duration is unquantiifable.
but the anime is OBJECTIVELY filler xD.

Bro, you can just admit you are wrong if you want. there is absolutely no shame in that and everyone can make mistakes.
i am simply getting tired of repeating same arguments again and again for nothing sadly


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## Ludi (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> No one said so tbf. and yeah, it did not take months for Hagoromo to beat the Juubi. the time duration is unquantiifable.
> but the anime is OBJECTIVELY filler xD.
> 
> Bro, you can just admit you are wrong if you want. there is absolutely no shame in that and everyone can make mistakes.
> i am simply getting tired of repeating same arguments again and again for nothing sadly


This guy is no one?



Fused said:


> It took him and his brother months to seal the wild Juubi



But I agree we can leave out other material than the manga. I'm glad to keep it manga only. 

Anyway, I don't think I'm the one being wrong. In the last thread I have addressed all points until you stopped replying so I figured I should accept your concession and not press it too much. If you want to have an official debate . 

You want to defend ghost Hagoromo necessarily being JJ Hagoromo? I'd debate against that, as in that: ghost Hagoromo doesn't have to be JJ Hagoromo. 

I have read your points but there are too many scattered points here for me to discuss them all at the same time, but this point seem to be your foundation. 

Because if this can be discarded than the rest of your arguments are basically baseless really. Wouldn't you agree?


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Ludi said:


> This guy is no one?


Ok sorry for that.


Ludi said:


> But I agree we can leave out other material than the manga. I'm glad to keep it manga only.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think I'm the one being wrong. In the last thread I have addressed all points until you stopped replying so I figured I should accept your concession and not press it too much. If you want to have an official debate .


I literally said that I was going to sleep that time. stopping to reply =/= conceding.
I then stopped replying because @MYGod000 already addressed u instead.
u did not address all my points as well.
I can not make an official debate when I am getting jumped all the time and i do not have the time for it sadly.


Ludi said:


> You want to defend ghost Hagoromo necessarily being JJ Hagoromo? I'd debate against that, as in that: ghost Hagoromo doesn't have to be JJ Hagoromo.
> 
> I have read your points but there are too many scattered points here for me to discuss them all at the same time, but this point seem to be your foundation.
> 
> Because if this can be discarded than the rest of your arguments are basically baseless really. Wouldn't you agree?


Nope because Ghost Hagoromo being JJ Hagoromo is not even my main argument.
U would just need to prove it is Base Hagoromo lol as U claimed it first.
Whether Ghost Hagoromo is JJ Hagoromo or Base Hagoromo is my least important argument here.


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## Tsukuyomi (Apr 2, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> ^This is some huge Wank.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I think they are relative tbh. 

I never said anything about BPS Sasuke being stronger. 
You fucking liar. 

Also pretty rich coming from the guy who thinks 1R Juubidara and JJ Hags are peers. 
And you have the audacity to say I am wanking? 
Some lads these days be goofy asf I STG


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## Ludi (Apr 2, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> I then stopped replying because @MYGod000 already addressed u instead.


I have him on Ignore so won't be able to see it. 


Anime Fan said:


> I can not make an official debate when I am getting jumped all the time and i do not have the time for it sadly.


Feelsbadman. It's so odd many people have time to post double digits in individual threads but not for a dedicated discussion about a point. If you don't want to debate it I'm not very interested in replying here myself.



Anime Fan said:


> U would just need to prove it is Base Hagoromo lol as U claimed it first.



I have addressed why I think it should be "no Juubi chakra" Hagoromo, which you haven't addressed. I have also addressed why your points are much weaker for it necessarily being JJ Hagoromo.



Anime Fan said:


> Whether Ghost Hagoromo is JJ Hagoromo or Base Hagoromo is my least important argument here.


I don't see how your points holds weight if you'd steelman that point in the other direction myself.   

So let's assume it's not JJ Hagoromo, then No JJ Hagoromo > Initial Juudara>Wild Juubi, which basically breaks your scaling.


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## Fused (Apr 2, 2022)

Ludi said:


> This guy is no one?


T-tHiS gUy Is No OnE?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ludi (Apr 2, 2022)

Fused said:


> T-tHiS gUy Is No OnE?


I don't know, ask him


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 2, 2022)

Lol at Ashura being a Kurama Jinchuriki (he isn't, his avatar looks different from Kurama and even Naruto's Asura Avatar, and Kurama himself never even thinks about Ashura as a host). Like, come on, are you gonna go this far to avoid conceding you were wrong?  

Bottom line is this. Hagoromo flat out states he _bequeathed_ power to Naruto and Sasuke both, just as he _bequeathed_ it to Ashura alone the last time. He never says anything about "awakening" anything, that's not what "bequeathed" means (it means "gave"). 

He also says giving both the power instead of the one produced the same results, which would make no sense if they both *didn't* _currently_ have the power he's talking about. You didn't respond to that, I think. 


And lol at Six Paths Sage Mode amped Kurama Mode being inferior to Six Paths Sage Mode when Kurama >>>> Naruto statwise and both are getting the SPSM amps. DB4 is only saying the REGULAR Kurama Mode is weaker than SPSM, it's not saying a SPSM-amped Kurama Mode is weaker (which you yourself essentially pointed out makes no sense).

@Kaioh Madara calling Sasuke and Naruto a "sideshow" is irrelevant, he also boasted he could take Sasuke's Rinnegan earlier, yet seconds later he was running away, lol. He's an arrogant douchebag.

You failed to rebut the fact Naruto and Sasuke handled all of Juudara's jutsu (PS aside) without going all out themselves and bro couldn't even kill Sakura when actually trying to, at least Kaguya gets the "alibi" she didn't even regard Sakura as a threat. If she broke Kaguya's horn, she'd have ripped Madara in half if he was in the same position, so this makes Madara look even more pathetic given we know the Otsutsuki >>>>> him statwise.


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## MYGod000 (Apr 2, 2022)

Code said:


> I think they are relative tbh.
> 
> I never said anything about BPS Sasuke being stronger.
> You fucking liar.


Did you not read what was said?

You said BPS Sasuke~JJ Hagoromo...so you clearly are saying they are in the same level of power
or you need to fix your scaling here. 





Code said:


> Also pretty rich coming from the guy who thinks 1R Juubidara and JJ Hags are peers.
> And you have the audacity to say I am wanking?



Hagoromo Stated He was Close to him, Author States Madara is the strongest Shinobi, and Stated to be a God in Rinnegan Sasuke Databook...

We don't have nothing on Where BPS Sasuke Rank except Here say and Kurama Stating His Chakra control is on par with Hagoromo. 

So You cool with Excepting Kurama's statements but you want to disregard Hagoromo statements saying Madara was close. 


Code said:


> Some lads these days be goofy asf I STG



I'm being Completely Reasonable in This debate...I'm telling there is no feeble way BPS sasuke is on JJ Hagoromo level when he literally had weaker Power up than JJ Hagoromo  who had The Juubi+SPSM on top of that. 

what on Gods Green Earth Make you think Sasuke With 1-9 Bijuu  and half the 9 tails chakra+Rinnegan would put him on Hagoromo level?  Were not talking about His Otsutsuki Lineage Yet here. 

Madara Has Juubi+ Divine Tree which is stronger than Juubi+Rinne-sharingan.

How would he not be peer with JJ Hagoromo bare minimal he par with him.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Tsukuyomi (Apr 2, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> Did you not read what was said?
> 
> You said BPS Sasuke~JJ Hagoromo...so you clearly are saying they are in the same level of power
> or you need to fix your scaling here.
> ...


I know what I said. 
Maybe it is you who needs to put on some glasses. 
Cause same realm of power does not mean I think BPS Sauce is stronger. 

Hags Said Madara is getting close. 
So he was clearly not in his realm of power. 

Nah he did what Hags did In the past which is controllling Juubi+ levels of chakra but with his Susanoo as the conduit as opposed to the Gedo Mazo this time around. 
And it coincides with my scaling chain. 

He is not on par cause feats and portrayal do not support/back that notion.


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## Kaioh (Apr 2, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Lol at Ashura being a Kurama Jinchuriki (he isn't, his avatar looks different from Kurama and even Naruto's Asura Avatar, and Kurama himself never even thinks about Ashura as a host). Like, come on, are you gonna go this far to avoid conceding you were wrong?



Out of all the things, you chose to nitpick where I speculated what Ashura's avatar is?   C'mon bruh, I literally said "In one manga scan we're just shown that Indra has a perfect susano'o of his own, and Ashura has a unique avatar that looks like an application of the kyuubi transformation", I never said he was a jinchuuriki explicitly. After looking further, I found out it's a jutsu known as Rikudō: Kunitsukami. Eitherway, you missed my point entirely. The point I was making is that we know extremely little about Indra's and Ashura's lives.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Bottom line is this. Hagoromo flat out states he _bequeathed_ power to Naruto and Sasuke both, just as he _bequeathed_ it to Ashura alone the last time. He never says anything about "awakening" anything, that's not what "bequeathed" means (it means "gave").
> 
> He also says giving both the power instead of the one produced the same results, which would make no sense if they both *didn't* _currently_ have the power he's talking about. You didn't respond to that, I think.



The thing is, Naruto and Sasuke retained the powers that were unlocked by Rikkudo Sennin, because they had the prerequisites for the abilities. Naruto was the pseudo jinchuuriki of the juubi and Sasuke had both Ashura's and Indra's powers. The power they gained from the seals was lost as those returned to Hagoromo. The seals contained enormous amount of power as proved by my earlier scans and the databook entry for Rikkudo Chibaku Tensei. The seals are the sole reason why Naruto and Sasuke were at their peak against Madara and Kaguya rather than in VotE 2 or anytime after.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> And lol at Six Paths Sage Mode amped Kurama Mode being inferior to Six Paths Sage Mode when Kurama >>>> Naruto statwise and both are getting the SPSM amps. DB4 is only saying the REGULAR Kurama Mode is weaker than SPSM, it's not saying a SPSM-amped Kurama Mode is weaker (which you yourself essentially pointed out makes no sense).



I guess you didn't get what I was saying earlier, I'll explain. Basically, my point was: 

Rikkudo Sennin Mode Kyuubi Naruto with the sun seal > Rikkudo Sennin Mode Base Naruto with the sun seal > Kurama Mode Naruto

You said that Naruto was holding back by not unleashing his avatar against Madara, but the thing is he didn't have to do that since his miniature form already enables Naruto to use all of his power, as per Kurama Mode databook entry, and he was also utilizing the far superior sun seal at the time to boost his power.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> @Kaioh Madara calling Sasuke and Naruto a "sideshow" is irrelevant, he also boasted he could take Sasuke's Rinnegan earlier, yet seconds later he was running away, lol. He's an arrogant douchebag.



I don't see how this proves that the claim is irrelevant. Madara's biggest concern at the time was reclaiming his second rinnegan, so of course he ran off to steal Kakashi's kamui to retrieve it. The burden of proof is on you to prove that Madara was somehow going all out in their brief skirmish after reclaiming his second rinnegan, before Mugen Tsukuyomi happened and Black Zetsu interfered.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You failed to rebut the fact Naruto and Sasuke handled all of Juudara's jutsu (PS aside) without going all out themselves and bro couldn't even kill Sakura when actually trying to, at least Kaguya gets the "alibi" she didn't even regard Sakura as a threat. If she broke Kaguya's horn, she'd have ripped Madara in half if he was in the same position, so this makes Madara look even more pathetic given we know the Otsutsuki >>>>> him statwise.



...What? Like I had said earlier, Rinbo and casual Chibaku Tensei meteors were just used to stall Naruto and Sasuke so he could cast Mugen Tsukuyomi. I've already debunked the dumb argument that Madara tried to kill Sakura, his Rinbo didn't even hit her. In what world does Kaguya failing to take Sakura's punch well mean that she'd rip Madara in half? Lol. So I guess Base Sakura > 8th gate Gai's Yagai? Pls, stop the downplay. You started the silly "Sakura anti-feat" nonsense, I'm just returning back the favor by showing how ridiculous the argument is. Hell, Kaguya having her face destroyed by Base Sakura is far worse than Madara's Rinbo not killing Byakugo Sakura protected by Rikkudo Sennin Mode Kyuubi Naruto.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Anime Fan (Apr 2, 2022)

Code said:


> I know what I said.
> Maybe it is you who needs to put on some glasses.
> Cause same realm of power does not mean I think BPS Sauce is stronger.
> 
> ...



*今のマダラがまさにそれだ。。。まるで母のカグヤの様だ "Right now, Madara is exactly like that... He's like Mother Kaguya." インドラの転生者を終えた今は十尾の力を得てワシにちかづき "Indra's current reincarnation gained the Ten Tails (Juubi) power, a power close to mine." 母カグヤの力にさえ近づこうとしている " now he's even getting closer to the power of Mother Kaguya."*

The japanese scan actually made it clear he was close to Hagoromo. and even "getting close" to Hagoromo is pretty much the same meaning.


Code said:


> *Nah he did what Hags did In the past which is controllling Juubi+ levels of chakra but with his Susanoo as the conduit as opposed to the Gedo Mazo this time around.
> And it coincides with my scaling chain.*


*False. I addressed this here:*



Code said:


> *He is not on par cause feats and portrayal do not support/back that notion.*


*The plethora of statements do suggest so actually.*






*今のマダラがまさにそれだ。。。まるで母のカグヤの様だ "Right now, Madara is exactly like that... He's like Mother Kaguya." インドラの転生者を終えた今は十尾の力を得てワシにちかづき "Indra's current reincarnation gained the Ten Tails (Juubi) power, a power close to mine." 母カグヤの力にさえ近づこうとしている " now he's even getting closer to the power of Mother Kaguya."*









And before someone tells me the game is not canon:


1:48 timestamp

Kishimoto himself worked on the game

And he was involved in it too.










Even JJ Obito got a statement like this:

Reactions: Like 1


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## MYGod000 (Apr 2, 2022)

Code said:


> I know what I said.
> Maybe it is you who needs to put on some glasses.
> Cause same realm of power does not mean I think BPS Sauce is stronger.



BPS Sasuke wasn't in his realm of power Which is my point The Manga Was talking about His skill at Merging the disseminated Tailed Beast Chakra into one. And  unbelievably well too, almost unrivaled...it like he's six path Geezer's level.

That whole sentence was talking about How good Sasuke Chakra Control with merging Chakra into one and that he was almost unrivaled at it not that he had the Same powers as Sage of Six paths Like Any Juubi Jin Has.

Then you ignored BPS Sasuke struggled to defeat A Weakened Down Naruto Before he powered up with  to his Level using NE Gathered by the Nine Tails.

If Madara Struggling against Six path Level Naruto and Sasuke can be used as Anti Feat that He wasn't Hagoromo level then the same should apply to Sasuke here buddy.




Code said:


> Hags Said Madara is getting close.
> So he was clearly not in his realm of power.



No.

The original Japanese Manga Blatantly  makes it clear that The Ten tails Put Madara close to JJ Hagoromo Level. Not Getting close...like the Translated Manga said...were told he is Close to that level.

That was Before Madara absorbed the Holy Tree which is more powerful than Ten tails.






Again...Any Juubi Jin Has Yin+Yang Release and can use Creation of all Things Hax which is the power of Hagoromo.

The difference here is Hagoromo back then Didn't have any ninjutsu he didn't learn that until 1000+ years after his death.

We have Statements from Hagoromo that He split the Same Ten tails powers that he fought into 9 pieces...with the  Ten tails Husk being Sent to the Moon.

Ten Tails in the War is just as powerful as the one That fought Hagoromo.



Code said:


> Nah he did what Hags did In the past which is controllling Juubi+ levels of chakra but with his Susanoo as the conduit as opposed to the Gedo Mazo this time around.
> And it coincides with my scaling chain.



It wasn't Juubi+ level...open your eyes Code and stop wanking.



The Ten tails>>>All 9 bijuu Combined chakra.

Sasuke combining Sub Ten tails level of chakra into His PS...we don't need to go around in circles


Code said:


> He is not on par cause feats and portrayal do not support/back that notion.


Feat and Portrayal doesn't Support all 9 Bijuu combined chakra being anywhere close to Juubi level but that didn't stop you from claiming it Juubi+ level.

Yes, Madara is He has the Same power as Him Thanks to the Juubi.


We have Multiple Statements supporting Obtaining the Ten bodies is the Same as owning the Powers of Sage of six paths.

We have Hagoromo own statements that Juubi Put you close to his level.

Then Madara Absorbed Holy Tree which is More powerful than the Ten tails.

Then gained Rinne-Sharingan which Hagoromo Feared and was scared of...as well as Gives him authority over everyone's chakra on the planet who is trapped in I.T

If you're going to use Naruto fighting Injured  Madara As your main Anti-Feat against him being Hagoromo level  then by Friend the same logic applies to BPS Sasuke who was unable to defeat Weakened Naruto who only had 3 TSO left and had been in constant combat With Madara and Kaguya...for Most of the Kaguya fight Sasuke was trapped sitting safe in another Dimension until Obito and sakura saved him from being lonely.

I can claim Ghost HAgoromo~Alive JJ Hagoromo, Because Things he didn't have back then that he has now implying in those 1000 years Hagoromo got a better understanding of Ninjutsu to the point he could use some and case Signs which He didn't do while alive. The manga makes it clear as well as the Databook that Indra created ninjutu.

Then the fact that While alive he never had 10 TSO something he gained after 1000 years of knowledge.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 2, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> Out of all the things, you chose to nitpick where I speculated what Ashura's avatar is?



Actually, I "nitpicked" quite a bit more than that. You should try reading sometime. 



Kaioh said:


> C'mon bruh, I literally said "In one manga scan we're just shown that Indra has a perfect susano'o of his own, and Ashura has a unique avatar that looks like an application of the kyuubi transformation", I never said he was a jinchuuriki explicitly. After looking further, I found out it's a jutsu known as Rikudō: Kunitsukami. Eitherway, you missed my point entirely. The point I was making is that we know extremely little about Indra's and Ashura's lives



We know one thing for sure - Ashura received Hagoromo's power *permanently*, that was the entire fricking point. Just as it with Naruto and Sasuke.



Kaioh said:


> The thing is, Naruto and Sasuke retained the powers that were unlocked by Rikkudo Sennin



This "unlocked" jazz is fanfic. 

Even the Databook doesn't say that, it actually says Hagoromo flat out *gave* Sasuke the Rinnegan. This also explains why Sasuke's Rinnegan permanently looks so different from Hagoromo's and Madara's and is closer to _Kaguya's_ in terms of appearance, ability, and might.



Kaioh said:


> because they had the prerequisites for the abilities. Naruto was the pseudo jinchuuriki of the juubi and Sasuke had both Ashura's and Indra's powers



They didn't get these from Hagoromo.



Kaioh said:


> The power they gained from the seals was lost as those returned to Hagoromo



Absolutely nothing substantiates this argument (neither the manga nor the Databook) and everything (both the manga and the Databook) says the exact opposite - Hagoromo _permanently_ endowed his power to Naruto and Sasuke.

Hagoromo wouldn't be upset about Naruto and Sasuke fighting in spite of him giving them both power as opposed to giving only one power (as was the case with Ashura)...if the power he gave to both was *temporary* anyway lmao.



Kaioh said:


> The seals contained enormous amount of power as proved by my earlier scans and the databook entry for Rikkudo Chibaku Tensei



Neither says this was the bulk of the power they received from Hagoromo. 



Kaioh said:


> The seals are the sole reason why Naruto and Sasuke were at their peak against Madara and Kaguya rather than in VotE 2 or anytime after



Bullshit. The seals do absolute jack other than heal 8G Guy, use a bunch of sealing jutsu that failed, and use RCT. 



Kaioh said:


> I guess you didn't get what I was saying earlier, I'll explain. Basically, my point was:
> 
> Rikkudo Sennin Mode Kyuubi Naruto with the sun seal > Rikkudo Sennin Mode Base Naruto with the sun seal > Kurama Mode Naruto



I don't disagree.



Kaioh said:


> You said that Naruto was holding back by not unleashing his avatar against Madara, but the thing is he didn't have to do that since his miniature form already enables Naruto to use all of his power, as per Kurama Mode databook entry



Um...no?  

The Databook doesn't say that at all, in fact, the Databook literally has a picture of Naruto *WITH the Kurama avatar unleashed right behind him *

It also literally says Naruto can, *ON TOP of his Kurama cloak, can use "Tailed Beast Bomb" and "Tailed Beast Transformation"*. That's not saying the Kurama cloak > Kurama transformation, that's saying the _complete opposite_. 



Like, your argument doesn't even make sense, Maru. Why would Naruto even BOTHER using the Kurama avatar *if his cloaked form was already superior*?  



Kaioh said:


> I don't see how this proves that the claim is irrelevant. Madara's biggest concern at the time was reclaiming his second rinnegan, so of course he ran off to steal Kakashi's kamui to retrieve it



Yet Madara, like just seconds ago, was utterly cocky and bragging about how he'd take Sasuke's Rinnegan...? Looks like his concern changed, don't you think?



Kaioh said:


> The burden of proof is on you to prove that Madara was somehow going all out in their brief skirmish after reclaiming his second rinnegan, before Mugen Tsukuyomi happened and Black Zetsu interfered



The fact Madara thought he was in precarious enough a position to take back his own words ("hurr durr me take back Sasuke Rinnegan!1!1!1") suffices.

Even if he wasn't going all out, NEITHER was Naruto or Sasuke even remotely lol, and they still had the upper hand  



Kaioh said:


> ...What? Like I had said earlier, Rinbo



One of his best jutsu. 



Kaioh said:


> and casual Chibaku Tensei meteors



Destroyed by casualish attacks from Naruto and to a degree, Sasuke.



Kaioh said:


> were just used to stall Naruto and Sasuke so he could cast Mugen Tsukuyomi



Which, as you admitted, failed on them.



Kaioh said:


> I've already debunked the dumb argument that Madara tried to kill Sakura



Madara: Stabs Sakura with a TSB weapon and is surprised by her surviving 

Kaioh: Madara trying to kill Sakura is dumb (becaus he didn't try to?)  

Stop arguing with canon, Maru  



Kaioh said:


> his Rinbo didn't even hit her



It did, Naruto just caught her in time. 




Kaioh said:


> In what world does Kaguya's horn failing to take Sakura's punch well mean that she'd rip Madara in half?



Fixed. 

In the world where Juudara's horn also broke to Sekizo 1st step, yet Juudara himself (barely) withstood the vastly stronger Yagai, Maru  



Kaioh said:


> Lol. So I guess Base Sakura > 8th gate Gai's Yagai? Pls, stop the downplay



Wtf are you talking about?  

I never said that, lewdman  



Kaioh said:


> You started the silly "Sakura anti-feat" nonsense, I'm just returning back the favor by showing how ridiculous the argument is



You haven't returned jack  

Madara TRIED to kill Sakura, Kaguya didn't.



Kaioh said:


> Hell, Kaguya having her face destroyed by Base Sakura



Stop exaggerating, Maru  

Does her face look "destroyed" to you? 




Kaioh said:


> is far worse than Madara's Rinbo not killing Byakugo Sakura protected by Rikkudo Sennin Mode Kyuubi Naruto.



No, far better


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## ARGUS (Apr 2, 2022)

JJ Hags > TCM Hamura > 3RG Madara > Non Jin Hags >= Hamura = DRJJ Madara > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke >> Adult naruto  > Adult Sasuke > teen spsm naruto > Rikudo sasuke

baryon naruto would definitely be below jin hags and in overall power be somewhere around non Jin hags and DRJJ madara level given his drawbacks are too great for the 1min power up

p.s at non Jin hags I mean ghost hags
Hags pre JJ, would be weaker than his ghost form

Reactions: Winner 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 2, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> JJ Hags > TCM Hamura > 3RG Madara > Non Jin Hags >= Hamura = DRJJ Madara > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke >> Adult naruto > Teen SPSM naruto > Adult Sasuke > Rikudo sasuke
> 
> baryon naruto would definitely be below jin hags and in overall power be somewhere around non Jin hags and DRJJ madara level given his drawbacks are too great for the 1min power up
> 
> ...


What complete trash as usual


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## ARGUS (Apr 2, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> What complete trash as usual


Why? Because I placed BPS and AA far above just regular RSM avatar and PS?

or is it because we have been verbatim told that prime madara is above naruto or sasuke individually?

as usual you struggle to stay objective without getting your feelings involved


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 2, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> DRJJ Madara > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke


Like 

The man who was getting walled by 2 kids who barely had access or mastery of any of their powers is above amped versions of their now vastly superior base states?

Trash 


ARGUS said:


> 3RG Madara > Non Jin Hags


The man who is legit shown at best physically on par with 50% Hags is stronger than full Hags who has the best hax in the series

Trash 


ARGUS said:


> Because I placed BPS and AA far above just regular RSM avatar and PS?


Has legit nothing to do with that as thats just common sense  

Now the strawmanning portion of your trash debate ability rears its head I see

Legit the instant youre put under scrutiny 


ARGUS said:


> is it because we have been verbatim told that prime madara is above naruto or sasuke individually?


We are told no such thing but even steelmanning this your opinions and placements are still utter trash

Madara being > SPSM Naruto doesn’t translate to > AA or BPS which were 1 off amps that didnt even exist to be quantified at tge same time as Madara

Massive reach on your part

This is like me saying that because Rinnegan Yin Seal Sasuke is >>>> Rinnegan Madara that’s automatically proof that hes above even a Juubi amped Rinnegan Madara

Youre using a comparison (that doesnt even exist, but we steelmanning) between a weaker form of fate bros to scale their stronger forms

Thats nonsense


ARGUS said:


> as usual you struggle to stay objective


Says the man literally making shit up and employing false equivalency 


ARGUS said:


> without getting your feelings involved


Says the man spamming personal fanfic over what the text actually says


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Kaioh said:


> The guy is genuinely strong, yet people here claim that Sasuke/Naruto could've killed him solo after this fight or whatever, it's all strange to me.



Hate to break it to you, but Naruto and Sasuke are also genuinely strong.

In fact, even the Gokage are technically strong, and they are like ants compared to even BSM Naruto, forget SPSM Naruto.


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## MYGod000 (Apr 3, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> JJ Hags > TCM Hamura > 3RG Madara > Non Jin Hags >= Hamura = DRJJ Madara > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke >> Adult naruto  > Adult Sasuke > teen spsm naruto > Rikudo sasuke



I disagree with that chain of scaling. 

Mainly because Ghost Hagoromo has 10 TSO indicating over the 1000 years he gained more power and knowledge. Something he didn't have as alive JJ Hagoromo. 


ARGUS said:


> baryon naruto would definitely be below jin hags and in overall power be somewhere around non Jin hags and DRJJ madara level given his drawbacks are too great for the 1min power up


I agree with this part That Baryon Naruto would be Below JJ Hagoromo. 


ARGUS said:


> p.s at non Jin hags I mean ghost hags
> Hags pre JJ, would be weaker than his ghost form


Like I was saying above Why would his Ghost form only be above Base Hagoromo?  He has 1000+ years to develop his powers and knowledge on ninjutsu something he couldn't do while he was JJ Hagoromo. 

HAgoromo own Databook acknowledges him as JJ Hagoromo.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Apr 3, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Like
> 
> The man who was getting walled by 2 kids who barely had access or mastery of any of their powers is above amped versions of their now vastly superior base states?
> 
> ...



Yeah...because Madara was Juubi Jin for what Bare 20 mins...what does them not knowing how to fly and Sasuke not knowing how to do CT going to change the out come of that battle? 

They needed Six paths CT to seal Madara Normal CT was not going to do shat to him. 


To be Fair BPS Sasuke was getting Walled by weakened SPSM NAruto who had just got out of battle with KAguya while Sasuke was safe inside Another Dimension waiting for Obito and Sakura to save him.  while he was doing that Naruto was wasting Chakra since he can't beat her by himself without sasuke Help to seal her.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 3, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> because Madara was Juubi Jin for what Bare 20 mins


Madara has SPSM awareness just like Naruto and can near instantly master his shit as a result

Theres still a learning curve as demonstrated by Naruto himself but its cut substantially 

Madara had a way longer window of time to train his abilities 

And his control is never once even implied to be a problem unlike it being EXPLICITLY STATED for the kids 

Nice attempt at damage control but like always you fall on your face




MYGod000 said:


> what does them not knowing how to fly and Sasuke not knowing how to do CT going to change the out come of that battle


Thats not the only parts of their arsenal they didn’t demonstrate and you fucking know that troll

And also…Their arsenal being expanded is really just a secondary concern

As Sasukes control of his Rinnegan went up so did his overall potency and ability 

We see this from his Susanoo being a joke to Kaguya to going to being on par with Narutos own fucking avatar

Jutsu he ALREADY HAD got stronger

And thats Madaras issue just as much as their expanded arsenals are


MYGod000 said:


> They needed Six paths CT to seal Madara


They dont at all especially not when both of them have the chakra of all 9 Biju now

Read the manga scrub


MYGod000 said:


> To be Fair BPS Sasuke was getting Walled by weakened SPSM NAruto


This didnt happen

Sasuke was destroying them and flat out blitzing their asses 4 to 1, Naruto was sweating and breathing heavy and freaking out desperately stalling for NE while Sasuke was legit smirking at him and roasting him for being unable to win while negging Narutos best attacks with his constructs damn finger beams…Its also DIRECTLY STATED Naruto is oneshot material without that NE amp

“BPS was walled”

What fucking manga did you read  


MYGod000 said:


> Sasuke was safe inside Another Dimension


No Sasuke was constantly spending chakra to try and escape the dimension 

He directly stated none of his Jutsu were working so we know he was trying shit

This damage control is garbage as usual

His own reserves are exponentially beneath Narutos regardless, the idea that this isnt taken into account when discussing fatigue is hilarious

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soldierofficial (Apr 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wait, you think Juudara > FP Teen Bros?



Why would he believe otherwise?  

The story made it clear, those two don't stand a chance against Juudara.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Soldierofficial said:


> Why would he believe otherwise?
> 
> The story made it clear, those two don't stand a chance against Juudara.



Is that why Juudara couldn't do anything to them, Maru?


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## MYGod000 (Apr 3, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Madara has SPSM awareness just like Naruto and can near instantly master his shit as a result
> 
> Theres still a learning curve as demonstrated by Naruto himself but its cut substantially
> 
> ...



If he can near instantly master his ability like Naruto then why are you making excuses for Naruto then? 



If Madara struggling with SPSM Naruto is an Anti-Feat for him then why Isn't it an anti-feat For BPS Sasuke who struggled to defeat Weakened SPSM Naruto? 

We have Manga scans stating Hagoromo sealed the Ten tails inside him and then he split the Ten tails power into 9 bijuu with the Husk being Sent to the Moon.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Anime Fan (Apr 3, 2022)

ARGUS said:


> JJ Hags > TCM Hamura > 3RG Madara > Non Jin Hags >= Hamura = DRJJ Madara > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke >> Adult naruto  > Adult Sasuke > teen spsm naruto > Rikudo sasuke
> 
> baryon naruto would definitely be below jin hags and in overall power be somewhere around non Jin hags and DRJJ madara level given his drawbacks are too great for the 1min power up
> 
> ...


This scaling is somewhat W. Here is mine:

Kaguya > 3 eyed Madara > JJ Hagoromo >= 2 eyed Madara > Tenseigan Hamura > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Post-God Tree) > SO6P Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Pre-God Tree) > Base Hagoromo > Byakugan Hamura.

Feel free to disagree, just don't be toxic about it.


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## Anime Fan (Apr 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Is that why Juudara couldn't do anything to them, Maru?


Is that also why Madara considered the whole fight a sideshow, Aegon?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## MYGod000 (Apr 3, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> This scaling is somewhat W. Here is mine:
> 
> Kaguya > 3 eyed Madara > JJ Hagoromo >= 2 eyed Madara > Tenseigan Hamura > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Post-God Tree) > SO6P Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Pre-God Tree) > Base Hagoromo > Byakugan Hamura.
> 
> Feel free to disagree, just don't be toxic about it.


I'll say this is somewhat correct.

Mainly the Kaguya>3 Eyed Madara>JJ Hagoromo>=2 Eyed Madara part.

I'll Give you that since It was implied DR JJ Madara unleashed the true power of the Six paths...So you can either put him Equal or slightly below JJ Hagoromo like you have here. However, The Hamura stuff i disagree with  because we have nothing on him only that he fought the Ten tails with his brother.

I fail To see any of his Move-sets with the Byakugan being of real help in that fight.  Air palm and Rotation can prevent the Ten tails from touching him physically with it Arms, i can see it being pretty powerful in Hamura since he is the God of the Hyuuga clan...but all that would just be assuming it must be super powerful in his hands because He Hagoromo's brother.

Tenseigan has been outright Confirmed to be equal Rinnegan in the movie where it said Rinnegan can bring destruction to a planet while Tenseigan can revive a planet.  If there was ever a huge gap in power Between Rinnegan Hagoromo and Hamura that would bridge that gap and make them equals.  I'm very Doubtful the Tenseigan Gave him a Juubi Level power up when Hagoromo stated the chakra of the juubi was immeasurable as well as it power. Tenseigan has no such statements.


I also disagree with SPSM Naruto and Rinnegan sasuke being stronger than JJ Madara pre-God Tree which Hagoromo stated the Juubi put him close to him.

One thing is for sure Hagoromo didn't have the God Tree in him if he did then he would have been immortal like Everyone else who had it...but he out right stated he saw his death split the ten tails so he only had the ten tails. 


He didn't have the completely Ten tails since Divine tree is part of the Ten tails and is the final form of it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYGod000 (Apr 3, 2022)

The only thing that has been established in the last 30+ chapters of Naruto is that if your generally in the level of six path level you can compete even if You are much weaker than the foe you're fighting.

we've also seen that a team of six path fighters can take down individual even if the gap is wide between them.

Examples:

JJ Obito vs Struggled with BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke Even those he was massively more powerful than them...but together they were able to compete against him.

JJ Madara who at his weakest is stated to be close to JJ Hagoromo level and he struggled with a team of Six path fighters.

Kaguya who was stated to be more powerful than JJ Hagoromo and 3 eyed Madara...struggled with Naruto and the only explanation for that was Naruto was unpredictable fighter.

BPS Sasuke even those he was much stronger After taking more Tailed Beast chakra and stated because he had more tailed beast chakra now that Naruto couldn't beat him...yet He struggled to defeat a Weakened SPSM Naruto who only had 3 TSO left after The Kaguya fight.

Madara Struggling with six path Naruto isn't an anti-feat because pretty much everyone of the people Named struggled with Naruto or weaker versions of that Naruto...yet No one claims Naruto is stronger than Them.

We also know Again Hagoromo had the ten tails sealed inside him and split into 9 bijuu....The Ten tails Madara absorbed was just as powerful as the one Hagoromo had inside him.

ON Topic: Madara wins here He literally has everything Hagoromo has+ Ninjutsu.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> Is that also why Madara considered the whole fight a sideshow, Aegon?



Already addressed


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2022)

Sasuke would beat a pre 3 eyed Madara, otherwise Madara will always be stronger than any sasuke bar maybe Adult Sasuke by virtue of scaling


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Sasuke might lose to a 3 eyed Madara, otherwise Madara will always be weaker than any sasuke bar maybe Current Adult Sasuke by virtue of scaling



Fixed.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> I’m wrong and didn’t read that portion of the manga.


Well can’t say I disagree


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## Anime Fan (Apr 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> Already addressed


U mean this. right? :


> Madara calling Sasuke and Naruto a "sideshow" is irrelevant, he also boasted he could take Sasuke's Rinnegan earlier, yet seconds later he was running away, lol. He's an arrogant douchebag.


Yeah. Madara was running away not because he was afraid of Naruto and Sasuke. but because he needed the 2nd eye so quickly before Obito destroys it. and he needed for his plans and also to unleash his True Power which he was unable to before (this was confirmed in the databook and even Obito said something similar iirc)

The one who called the fight a sideshow was 2 eyed Madara and then 3 eyed Madara. NOT 1 eyed Madara who did not even unleash his True Power


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## Anime Fan (Apr 3, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Sasuke would beat a pre 3 eyed Madara, otherwise Madara will always be stronger than any sasuke bar maybe Adult Sasuke by virtue of scaling


Unless U think Sasuke beats Hagoromo (who the databook implied 2 eyed Madara is equal to)
No. Sasuke is not beating that Madara.
Maybe put up a fight sure. he is just not winning this.


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Serene Grace said:


> Well can’t say I disagree, you are right, Aegon, Sasuke > Madara


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2022)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Like
> 
> The man who was getting walled by 2 kids who barely had access or mastery of any of their powers is above amped versions of their now vastly superior base states?
> 
> ...


Ugh what the fuck?  

*1RG Shinju madara was getting overwhelmed by naruto and sasuke TOGETHER
thats got nothgin to do with DRJJ madaras power comparing to naruto and sasuke individually *

not to mention madara has already been established as the strongest uchiha ever and that includes sasuke, who at VOTE was on par with Naruto. 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Has legit nothing to do with that as thats just common sense
> 
> Now the strawmanning portion of your trash debate ability rears its head I see
> 
> Legit the instant youre put under scrutiny


Hags claimed madara was approaching his power when he just had 1RG,
later on he got 2RG, Rinne sharingan, and absorbed the shinju,, and was also trying to get some of kaguyas powerrs which were above his own, (rinnesharingan and IT) and it was pretty much implied both naruto and sasuke had to work together and pool their powers together to seal him 
so yeah prime madara is slightly above non jin hags or at the very least on par with him which is what my list says 


WorldsStrongest said:


> We are told no such thing but even steelmanning this your opinions and placements are still utter trash
> 
> Madara being > SPSM Naruto doesn’t translate to > AA or BPS which were 1 off amps that didnt even exist to be quantified at tge same time as Madara


Logical scaling and feats say otherwise 
madaras DC and overall arsenal makes him stronger than naruto and sasuke even at VOTE 
I have already provided my analysis on that at the start of this thread 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Massive reach on your part
> 
> This is like me saying that because Rinnegan Yin Seal Sasuke is >>>> Rinnegan Madara that’s automatically proof that hes above even a Juubi amped Rinnegan Madara
> 
> ...


Says the one thats spouting that Naruto and Sasuke >>> DRJJ madara individually just because they both managed to overwhelm 1RG Shinjumadara 
talk about a lack of logic and nonsense 

>Naruto calls madara a "fool" for thinking he is going to fight and defeat him alone. *Thats 1RG Shinjumadara* 

>Madara literally calls both naruto and sasuke a "sideshow" once he gets his second rinnegan back. Both naruto and sasuke themsellves seem visibly concerned and worried. Yet that concern was nowhere when they wre overwhelming him before he got his other rinnegan. 
So that portrayal alone implies madara is above them individually, 

>AS for VOTE versions, i have alrady provided my reasoning at the start of this thread on why DRJJ Madara > BPS or AA 
the fragments of bijuu chakra wont make up for the extra juubi, shinju, and other rinnegan and other EMS abilties madara has gained. especially when pre rikudo or JJ buffs, madara was comfortably above EMS sasuke and his buffs are more than sasukes 
basic scaling and analysis of their abilities put madara above vote sasuke or vote naruto, 




WorldsStrongest said:


> Says the man literally making shit up and employing false equivalency
> 
> Says the man spamming personal fanfic over what the text actually says


>this dude is litarlly obsessed with me and gets super mad when my lists dont put his butt buddies naruto and sasuke at kaguya leevel

if my opinions were that "trash" for you, you wouldnt be so annoyed or worried or mad if they were different from yours 
its pretty damn obvious there is far too much logic in my arguments for you to comprehend that it leads to you always questioning your judgements (which is wank obvously) 

so really, the only thing whicsh is making you soo damn mad is that i havea madara > fate bros. i dont see anything else which is all that far fetched evne in your eyes. 
that shouldnt garner this kind of butthurt and emotional damage on your end but i have already explained above why you tend to be that way

Reactions: Agree 2


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2022)

MYGod000 said:


> I disagree with that chain of scaling.
> 
> Mainly because Ghost Hagoromo has 10 TSO indicating over the 1000 years he gained more power and knowledge. Something he didn't have as alive JJ Hagoromo.


Actualy even Pre Jin Hags had a full set of TSB on Kaguyas flashback 
There could be a possibility that he lost the TSB during the juubi/kaguya fight, adn then regained them back after becoming the JJ 


There is absolutely zero evidence on ghost hags being above jj hags 
not when we have been verbatim stated that hags did lose alot of power after getting rid of the juubi 

not to mention the idea that Jin hags of all ppl doesnt have a full set of TSB is laughable when naturally the ten tails coffin seal automaticall grants you SPSM and TSB, and both juubito and juudara immediately got the full set with mastered JJ forms 


MYGod000 said:


> I agree with this part That Baryon Naruto would be Below JJ Hagoromo.





MYGod000 said:


> Like I was saying above Why would his Ghost form only be above Base Hagoromo?  He has 1000+ years to develop his powers and knowledge on ninjutsu something he couldn't do while he was JJ Hagoromo.
> 
> HAgoromo own Databook acknowledges him as JJ Hagoromo.


when shinobi die, they dont get an avenue to keep evolving and becoming stronger, thats fanfic, 
at best they can come back at equal power to their state before their death with their health condition beign healthy. 

knowledge on ninjutsu and all of that, hags was all of that during his life, and had mostof his mastery when the Juubi was within him 

the idea that ghost hags > jin hags, is directly contradicting the notion that hags was weakened after losing the juubi, and would just make no sense givne how powerful the juubi is and how powerful it makes an individual

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ARGUS (Apr 3, 2022)

Anime Fan said:


> This scaling is somewhat W. Here is mine:
> 
> Kaguya > 3 eyed Madara > JJ Hagoromo >= 2 eyed Madara > Tenseigan Hamura > AA Naruto = BPS Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Post-God Tree) > SO6P Naruto > Rinnegan Sasuke > 1 eyed Madara (Pre-God Tree) > Base Hagoromo > Byakugan Hamura.
> 
> Feel free to disagree, just don't be toxic about it.


Im aware of how you feel about him but i disagree with non jin hags placement, 
mainly because ghost hags was his form after losing the juubi and since the juubi was already within madara when he gave naruto and sasuke his powers 
so the idea that ghost hags is below naruto and sasuke individually makes zero sense when at best naruto and sasuke are about 50% of his powers. 

the rest is more or less ok

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Fused (Apr 3, 2022)

Madara is directly stated to be the "Strongest Ninja of All" by the Databook authored by Kishimoto himself:



> *Night Guy *(Yagai)*​
> 
> Taijutsu, S-rank, Offensive, Close range
> User(s): Might Guy
> ...




Source: 


Madara, the Strongest Ninja of All, kills Sasuke, an inferior ninja.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## JayK (Apr 3, 2022)

Simpara shills are among the most pathetic clowns around here.

I can't think of a single other fanbase having so little going on in their time that they gotta necro threads 24/7 in which their only reason for existence gets washed by stronger characters.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

JayK said:


> Simpara shills are among the most pathetic clowns around here.
> 
> I can't think of a single other fanbase having so little going on in their time that they gotta necro threads 24/7 in which their only reason for existence gets washed by stronger characters.



Kakuzu and Jiraiya fans come close, Itachi fans too. 

The four most overrated, IMO.


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## Fused (Apr 3, 2022)

JayK said:


> Simpara shills are among the most pathetic clowns around here.
> 
> I can't think of a single other fanbase having so little going on in their time that they gotta necro threads 24/7 in which their only reason for existence gets washed by stronger characters.


Tough words coming from a desperate simp who lusts over anime waifus, I'm shacking, I'm shacking

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Aegon Targaryen (Apr 3, 2022)

Fused said:


> Madara is directly stated to be the "Strongest Ninja of All" by the Databook authored by Kishimoto himself:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The Databook calls Hashirama the strongest ninja too.

Hashirama > Juudara confirmed 

Or you can stop being dishonest and understand the statement is talking about a time BEFORE Rinnegan Sasuke even did anything.


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## Kaioh (Apr 3, 2022)

Aegon Targaryen said:


> We know one thing for sure - Ashura received Hagoromo's power *permanently*, that was the entire fricking point. Just as it with Naruto and Sasuke.



We don't know much about that either. Ashura was stated to be on par with Indra before receiving his power from Hagoromo, yet after receiving power from Hagoromo, Indra was still capable of mutual destruction with Ashura. To me that seems kinda suspicious that such a travesty should occur that Ashura with Hagoromo's powers was still killed in his fight with Indra. Either Hagoromo's gift was just temporary, or it wasn't as massive as you make it seem and Hagoromo potentially just awakened a unique power in Ashura like he did in Naruto and Sasuke all this time later. Moreover, if Hagoromo gave a significant portion of his power to Ashura, or even all of it, without ever retrieving it, it makes even less sense that he'd still have enough power to give away to Naruto or Sasuke.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> This "unlocked" jazz is fanfic.



I'll ask you this simple question, did Madara unlock rinnegan without Hagoromo's help, yes or no?



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Even the Databook doesn't say that, it actually says Hagoromo flat out *gave* Sasuke the Rinnegan. This also explains why Sasuke's Rinnegan permanently looks so different from Hagoromo's and Madara's and is closer to _Kaguya's_ in terms of appearance, ability, and might.



This is more of a semantics issue, as we know for a fact it's not necessary for Sasuke to meet Hagoromo to unlock rinnegan. Madara also referred to Naruto and Sasuke getting their new powers as awakening them. Also Sasuke's rinnegan looking different has nothing to do with this, as rinnegans come in different patterns and textures.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> They didn't get these from Hagoromo.



Of course not, they needed those prerequisites prior to visiting Hagoromo, as it would be impossible for them to gain their new powers otherwise.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Absolutely nothing substantiates this argument (neither the manga nor the Databook) and everything (both the manga and the Databook) says the exact opposite - Hagoromo _permanently_ endowed his power to Naruto and Sasuke.
> 
> Hagoromo wouldn't be upset about Naruto and Sasuke fighting in spite of him giving them both power as opposed to giving only one power (as was the case with Ashura)...if the power he gave to both was *temporary* anyway lmao.



It's been already established that the seals contained an enormous amount of chakra and it's been proven that Naruto and Sasuke could tap into their power even without using Rikkudo Chibaku Tensei, chakra = power. Saying those seals had no bearing on their power is silly.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Neither says this was the bulk of the power they received from Hagoromo.
> 
> Bullshit. The seals do absolute jack other than heal 8G Guy, use a bunch of sealing jutsu that failed, and use RCT.



Just because they're not explicitly claiming they're using that power doesn't mean they aren't using it, lol, not everything is stated on screen. You also haven't explained how is it possible that Hagoromo was unable to summon Naruto and Sasuke from Kaguya's dimension without retrieving his seals back, clarifying such a maneuver required a vast amount of chakra.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Um...no?
> 
> The Databook doesn't say that at all, in fact, the Databook literally has a picture of Naruto *WITH the Kurama avatar unleashed right behind him *
> 
> ...



??? The databook explicitly states that Kurama Mode unleashes all of Kyuubi's and Naruto's combined power, that's why I posted that scan. I'm not saying the avatar is weaker than Kurama Mode, but that it simply isn't stronger than Kurama Mode. Also, your argument is a two way street: why would Naruto even BOTHER using Kurama Mode if it's so inferior to the Tailed Beast Transformation?   



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Yet Madara, like just seconds ago, was utterly cocky and bragging about how he'd take Sasuke's Rinnegan...? Looks like his concern changed, don't you think?
> 
> The fact Madara thought he was in precarious enough a position to take back his own words ("hurr durr me take back Sasuke Rinnegan!1!1!1") suffices.



Idk where did you get the bragging part. Madara said: "Then... I think that left eye will suit me quite well!!" Perhaps it could be said that Madara was arrogant in thinking that he could grab the rinnegan by simply charging at Sasuke, but then again Madara had no idea how Sasuke's amenotejikara worked yet. He got outmaneuvered there, but this doesn't prove that Madara's sideshow talk was irrelevant. A complete pair of rinnegan eyes is much more powerful than a half of it as proven by the story.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Even if he wasn't going all out, NEITHER was Naruto or Sasuke even remotely lol, and they still had the upper hand



Yet they couldn't even touch Madara or stop him from casting Mugen Tsukuyomi, great upper hand.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> One of his best jutsu.



Used purely for defense and stalling.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Destroyed by casualish attacks from Naruto and to a degree, Sasuke.



They put way more effort into destroying those meteors than Madara did creating them and throwing them, lol.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Which, as you admitted, failed on them.



Sure, but ultimately that doesn't matter, as Madara still put the rest of the world in Mugen Tsukuyomi, and that was really the key part of it. He was still going to dispose of Team 7 had it not been for Black Zetsu interfering.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Madara: Stabs Sakura with a TSB weapon and is surprised by her surviving
> 
> Kaioh: Madara trying to kill Sakura is dumb (becaus he didn't try to?)
> 
> Stop arguing with canon, Maru



I'm talking about the Rinbo part, not the Gudodama part. I've already acknowledged the part of Sakura surviving a Gudodama stab earlier.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> It did, Naruto just caught her in time.



How convenient that you post the scan that's from the next page rather than the actual scan where Naruto blocks the Rinbo with his leg and protects Sakura from damage, lmao.



It really can't get any more blatant than that. Your scan proves absolutely nothing, other than the fact they got blown away by the impact. Also why the hell would Naruto even bother protecting Sakura if she could just tank the hit? It doesn't make any sense. Naruto would be off better attacking Madara with Sasuke instead of protecting Sakura, if she could actually tank the hit.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Fixed.
> 
> In the world where Juudara's horn also broke to Sekizo 1st step, yet Juudara himself (barely) withstood the vastly stronger Yagai, Maru



A non sequitur, considering Sakura did so much more than simply breaking Kaguya's horn.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Wtf are you talking about?
> 
> I never said that, lewdman



"If she broke Kaguya's horn, she'd have ripped Madara in half if he was in the same position", yet not even 8th gate Gai's Yagai managed to do what you described, and this was before Madara absorbed shinju to make himself even stronger, lol. So indeed by saying what you said you are suggesting that Sakura's base punch > 8th gate Gai's Yagai.



Aegon Targaryen said:


> You haven't returned jack
> 
> Madara TRIED to kill Sakura, Kaguya didn't.



Yeah nice kill attempt with the Rinbo that got blocked by Naruto's leg, and the Rinbo not even trying to follow up after repelling the kids, lol. At least Madara wasn't injured by something so weak as base Sakura punch...



Aegon Targaryen said:


> Stop exaggerating, Maru
> 
> Does her face look "destroyed" to you?



A bruised and swollen face from a single punch to the face by base Sakura? That's an utter destruction 



Aegon Targaryen said:


> No, far better



HOW??? That doesn't even make any sense lmao.

Reactions: Agree 2


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