# Tsunade vs Orochimaru



## Itachі (Apr 22, 2016)

*Location:* Sasori vs Sakura & Chiyo

*Distance:* 10 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full

*Restrictions:* Orochimaru is only allowed Hiruzen as an Edo Tensei


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 22, 2016)

Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad is the order.  Orochimaru can defeat Jiraiya, Jiraiya can defeat Tsunade, and Tsunade can defeat Orochimaru.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 22, 2016)

0rochimaru wins w/ kusanagi stuffs

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Itachі (Apr 24, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> 0rochimaru wins w/ kusanagi stuffs



How easy do you think it would be for Orochimaru to actually best Tsunade in CQC though?


----------



## ohohojousama (Apr 24, 2016)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> 0rochimaru wins w/ kusanagi stuffs



This doesn't make any sense xD


Isaiah13000 said:


> Toad > Slug > Snake > Toad is the order.  Orochimaru can defeat Jiraiya, Jiraiya can defeat Tsunade, and Tsunade can defeat Orochimaru.



I agree.


----------



## t0xeus (Apr 24, 2016)

Tsunade tries to punch Orochimaru -> he uses Nan no Kaizo and tangles around her arm -> he opens his mouth and Kusanagi pierces Tsunade's heart.


----------



## Itachі (Apr 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Tsunade tries to punch Orochimaru -> he uses Nan no Kaizo and tangles around her arm -> he opens his mouth and Kusanagi pierces Tsunade's heart.



Then she activates Sozo Saisei and punches his lights out.

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## t0xeus (Apr 24, 2016)

Yes, whatever mate, keep believing that she can use Sozo Saisei even with heart pierced, head crushed or in whatever condition she is.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

orochimaru should win

tsunade has zero I mean absolutely zero means of killing orochimaru

the reverse isn't true. her ability to heal isn't as extensive as his


----------



## Itachі (Apr 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Yes, whatever mate, keep believing that she can use Sozo Saisei even with heart pierced, head crushed or in whatever condition she is.



Why couldn't she use Sozo Saisei with just her heart pierced? She had serious wounds against Orochimaru but she still used it and against Madara half of her organs were probably fucked by those two giant Susano'o swords.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Yes, whatever mate, keep believing that she can use Sozo Saisei even with heart pierced, head crushed or in whatever condition she is.


Dude, Tsunade survived having Madara's Susanoo pierce through her whole abdomen and come out her back. That means his sword ruptured/destroyed several organs and her spine; which she recovered from. She also survived having her body being torn in half even without the Byakugo and maintained consciousness and had enough chakra left to save the other Kage. Orochimaru piercing Tsunade's heart isn't gonna do shit, and as the world's greatest medical-nin I'm sure she could come up with a counter to any of his poisons and it was implied back in Part 1 that she could've used medical-ninjutsu to kill Orochimaru just with physical contact by Kabuto. Orochimaru cannot hurt her and she has the ability to kill him, she can kill him with Katsuyu as well as it was implied that her acid could do it. Tsunade can beat Orochimaru.


----------



## Itachі (Apr 24, 2016)

I don't think Tsunade can randomly brew a cure to Orochimaru's poison in the midst of battle, or that she's going to conveniently have some with her. Though depending on the way Orochimaru's poison works, she could just use Sozo Saisei to regenerate from it.

I don't bank on Katsuyu being able to kill Orochimaru either, only thing that points to Katsuyu possibly being able to do it is that single statement that doesn't even directly say that Katsuyu's acid would kill him. Everything else points to Orochimaru surviving it, though to be fair we don't know the nature of Katsuyu's acid.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Either way, it's been implied in Part 1 that Tsunade can kill Orochimaru herself with some unnamed medical-ninjutsu, and in Part 2 it was implied that Katsuyu could kill Orochimaru with her acid. Which I don't really find hard to believe, Orochimaru's regenerative abilities are top-notch but I doubt he can survive being melted by acid that can melt through solid rock. That combined with the fact that it'd be harder for Orochimaru to land a killing blow on Tsunade compared to her landing one on him should make this battle a high difficulty win for Tsunade imo.


----------



## Itachі (Apr 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Either way, it's been implied in Part 1 that Tsunade can kill Orochimaru herself with some unnamed medical-ninjutsu, and in Part 2 it was implied that Katsuyu could kill Orochimaru with her acid. Which I don't really find hard to believe, Orochimaru's regenerative abilities are top-notch but I doubt he can survive being melted by acid that can melt through solid rock. That combined with the fact that it'd be harder for Orochimaru to land a killing blow on Tsunade compared to her landing one on him should make this battle a high difficulty win for Tsunade imo.



But we don't know how it worked, for all we know it could require Orochimaru standing still for 10 seconds for Tsunade to pull it off.

Even if it could kill Orochimaru, Katsuyu's acid couldn't kill him unless she absolutely covered him in the stuff. Orochimaru will have it easier if he chooses to go into his true form and paralyse Tsunade with poison, Tsunade's only option is to punch him until he can't use Oral Rebirth anymore. Though using Rashinsho to prevent him from using Jutsu to escape and then pummelling him into a sticky mess might work.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Oro has better reach 
And his poison tamper with her chakra control 
Her punch straight to his face wouldn't kill him

Now if he swings at her neck her head might come off 

She is a lot less likely to survive that than he is


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

True. I forgot about Ranshinsho myself, that, imo, makes it even easier for her to win by paralyzing him long enough so that Katsuyu could create enough acid to melt him. If she is paralyzed by his poison and Katsuyu has already been summoned, she could protect her from any of his next incoming attacks until she is able to overcome it.


----------



## t0xeus (Apr 24, 2016)

I got from the Gai vs Madara fight that heart is the center point of chakra, which means destroying it => death / inability to use chakra, or ?

Sozo Saisei isn't that godlike as you may think, even Orochimaru said that Tsunade would die from suffocating, yet in your logic she should be able to repair the loss of tissues killed by acidosis and also brain cells that would die, yet it doesn't work that way.


----------



## Saru (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> orochimaru should win
> 
> tsunade has zero I mean absolutely zero means of killing orochimaru
> 
> the reverse isn't true. her ability to heal isn't as extensive as his



How is it not?


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

She can't survive Amaterasu 

He can lol at it 

She has to reattach herself via Katsuyu if split in half 

Oro can do that for fun


----------



## Saru (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> She can't survive Amaterasu
> 
> He can lol at it
> 
> ...




Amaterasu doesn't have anything to do with this matchup though.

Orochimaru connecting his body with snakes isn't really any better or different than .1% of Katsuyu reattaching Tsunade's body.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I got from the Gai vs Madara fight that heart is the center point of chakra, which means destroying it => death / inability to use chakra, or ?
> 
> Sozo Saisei isn't that godlike as you may think, even Orochimaru said that Tsunade would die from suffocating, yet in your logic she should be able to repair the loss of tissues killed by acidosis and also brain cells that would die, yet it doesn't work that way.



That isn't true at all, Guy used the Eight Gates which automatically results in death and the last Tenketsu is simply located at the heart. It has never been said that the heart is the center of chakra and if it's removed you lose the ability to use chakra.

He cannot suffocate her though and he'd be more on the defensive than she would be making him being able to impale her brain unlikely.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

@Saru 
It has everything to do with Amaterasu as that's an attack oro level of healing can laugh at and tsunade simply dies to it like fodder 

Tsunade with Katsuyu  0.1% or whatever % u think it was still needs assistance and took time to do so 

Oro against didn't even react to it as an issue 

You honestly can't compare the 2 in terms of healing 

Though it's not like oro will even leave his body exposed 

He goes Yamata and attacks in that form . Katsuyu offensively hasn't really shown anytning to suggest she won't just be a victim


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> It has everything to do with Amaterasu as that's an attack oro level of healing can laugh at and tsunade simply dies to it like fodder
> 
> Tsunade with Katsuyu  0.1% or whatever % u think it was still needs assistance and took time to do so
> ...



Tsunade was also out of chakra and focusing on saving the other Kage and herself when that happened. She was never bisected while being at 100% with Byakugo active so it isn't comparable. 

If Orochimaru devours Katsuyu with Yamata no Orochi then she will split up inside of his body and flood his insides with acid.


----------



## Saru (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Saru
> It has everything to do with Amaterasu as that's an attack oro level of healing can laugh at and tsunade simply dies to it like fodder




Okay... It still has nothing to do with the matchup.



> Tsunade with Katsuyu  0.1% or whatever % u think it was still needs assistance and took time to do so
> 
> Oro against didn't even react to it as an issue
> 
> ...




Tsunade probably wouldn't be bothered by bifurcation either.

Orochimaru's Yamata Form would be useless. All it can do is smash things and bite Katsuyu. That's not going to be a threat to something that tanked Shinra Tensei. Tsunade herself can bully Orochimaru in that form since he's essentially a huge target (see: Ohnoki vs. Madara's Susano'o), whereas Katsuyu's acid would force Orochimaru to use oral rebirth until he's out of chakra.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Tsunade was also out of chakra and focusing on saving the other Kage and herself when that happened. She was never bisected while being at 100% with Byakugo active so it isn't comparable.
> 
> If Orochimaru devours Katsuyu with Yamata no Orochi then she will split up inside of his body and flood his insides with acid.



Fan fic on the Katsuyu bit

Point here is tsunade can't reattach her body by herself 

So it's a lot hader for her to pull off while being attacked . Oro can reattach at will for fun 

Or barf himself out and counter attack 

His upper hand here is too obvious 

Considering ET hasn't even been mentioned here , and tsunade got no defence against it


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

In Yamata form Katsuyu featless acid isn't going to be bothering a snake which can most likely shed its skin to reduce damage 

Tsunade gets bitten by a giant snake and inject with massive amounts of poison


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fan fic on the Katsuyu bit
> 
> Point here is tsunade can't reattach her body by herself
> 
> ...



She can survive being torn apart just fine as stated herself, and can produce acid even while divided, if she is devoured she can flood his insides with acid. There is nothing fan-fictional about me making that statement. Orochimaru may be superior in that area, but how is that really relevant to the fight? He cannot bisect he either and Edo Tensei is excluded here.



Icegaze said:


> In Yamata form Katsuyu featless acid isn't going to be bothering a snake which can most likely shed its skin to reduce damage
> 
> Tsunade gets bitten by a giant snake and inject with massive amounts of poison



Orocohimaru's Yamata form itself is just as featless as Katsuyu's acid, so there isn't any reason to assume it is so formidable that Katsuyu cannot defend against it. Tsunade can always punch it's giant heads away or camp inside of katsuyu to protect herself, and her bodies' constant regeneration should allow her to be resistant to the poison.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Reason to know its formidable is because Yamata > manda 

And manda isn't something Katsuyu can deal with easily or at all based on the manga 

I see no reason to favour tsunade because u have yet to tell me how she kills him

So far it's she fights him till he runs out of chakra 

Her however she can loose a head . His poison can tamper with her chakra control and by extension her seal 

So again not seeing what disadvantage orochimaru has here 

Even when restricted as per the OP


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Reason to know its formidable is because Yamata > manda
> 
> And manda isn't something Katsuyu can deal with easily or at all based on the manga
> 
> ...



Katsuyu literally stated that she can survive being torn apart just fine. Katsuyu has survived Pain's CST, Naruto's KN4 - KN6 corrosive chakra cloak, KN4 - KN6 Naruto's whole battle with Pain, and even CT. Even against Manda right after he entangled her she split apart. Manda literally cannot harm Katsuyu and if he was to swallow her then she spews acid while inside of him and he dies. Same goes for any snake that she encounters really, the Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake order still exists.

She kills him by using Ranshinsho to paralyze him and then uses her unnamed medical-ninjutsu to kill him like it was implied it could or Katsuyu kills him with her acid that was also implied to kill him.

How do you know how much of an effect his poison will have on her? Him being unable to kill her, and her being able to kill him is the advantage that she has.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Katsuyu literally stated that she can survive being torn apart just fine. Katsuyu has survived Pain's CST, Naruto's KN4 - KN6 corrosive chakra cloak, KN4 - KN6 Naruto's whole battle with Pain, and even CT. Even against Manda right after he entangled her she split apart. Manda literally cannot harm Katsuyu and if he was to swallow her then she spews acid while inside of him and he dies. Same goes for any snake that she encounters really, the Snake > Toad > Slug > Snake order still exists..



and manda and yamata can survive damage via shedding. even fodder snakes have shown this. katsuyu surving here isn't the issue tsunade is the one who is going to be attacked and katsuyu hasn't shown the speed or battle skills to keep defending her

.





> She kills him by using Ranshinsho to paralyze him and then uses her unnamed medical-ninjutsu to kill him like it was implied it could or Katsuyu kills him with her acid that was also implied to kill him..



 he uses oral rebirth to escape the body paralyzed by tsunade ranshinsho. this unnamed medical ninjutsu is featless, who knows if its not something he cant just barf himself out of right after

.





> How do you know how much of an effect his poison will have on her? Him being unable to kill her, and her being able to kill him is the advantage that she has.



because poison so far affected sakura and she couldn't mold her chakra properly, why would it be different for tsunade

poison has even stopped ET right in their tracks, tsunade cant be an exception to the rule here

though its cute you base her winning on an unnamed and featless medical ninjutsu attack which was implied when tsunade had zero knowledge of orochimaru abilities


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> and manda and yamata can survive damage via shedding. even fodder snakes have shown this. katsuyu surving here isn't the issue tsunade is the one who is going to be attacked and katsuyu hasn't shown the speed or battle skills to keep defending her



External damage, they have never shown the ability to survive being melted from the inside out of being melted in general. There is a reason Manda dodged Katsuyu's acid. 

.



> he uses oral rebirth to escape the body paralyzed by tsunade ranshinsho. this unnamed medical ninjutsu is featless, who knows if its not something he cant just barf himself out of right after.



He cannot move as his body is paralyzed until he figures it out like Kabuto did, he cannot use Oral Rebirth. Kabuto stopped Tsunade from using it as he recognized that the way she was using her chakra was with killing intent. 



> because poison so far affected sakura and she couldn't mold her chakra properly, why would it be different for tsunade
> 
> poison has even stopped ET right in their tracks, tsunade cant be an exception to the rule here
> 
> though its cute you base her winning on an unnamed and featless medical ninjutsu attack which was implied when tsunade had zero knowledge of orochimaru abilities



When did this happen? 

When? 

What makes you think she had no knowledge of his abilities?


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> External damage, they have never shown the ability to survive being melted from the inside out of being melted in general. There is a reason Manda dodged Katsuyu's acid. .



why would there be internal damage, no one said yamata or manda intend to swallow katsuyu here. katsuyu isn't immune to poison, bitting it should be a problem

.



.





> He cannot move as his body is paralyzed until he figures it out like Kabuto did, he cannot use Oral Rebirth. Kabuto stopped Tsunade from using it as he recognized that the way she was using her chakra was with killing intent. .



 kabuto had to physically move, hence why he had to figure it out. spitting a new body out doesn't require orochimaru to move his limbs at all


.





> When did this happen?
> 
> When?
> 
> What makes you think she had no knowledge of his abilities?



she didn't know he had achieved immortality though, she was surprised to see the face under oro skin

not knowing that means she had no idea what his abilities are since they last met

kabuto noticed tsunade had killing intent in her medical ninjutsu, that doesn't mean it could kill oro. just that the intent was there

poison affected sakura chakra control against sasori (please read the manga)

poison affected hanzo an edo tensei and prevented chakra control

poison stopped kankuro from moving all together when hanzo used it

poison will screw things up for tsunade here , since it will tamper with her chakra control


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> why would there be internal damage, no one said yamata or manda intend to swallow katsuyu here. katsuyu isn't immune to poison, bitting it should be a problem



We can't be so sure, Katsuyu can turn her body into a pool of liquids, don't think poison would be very effective there. There's also the possibility that Katsuyu will decide to split up as soon as Manda bites her and go down his throat.



> kabuto had to physically move, hence why he had to figure it out. spitting a new body out doesn't require orochimaru to move his limbs at all.



He wasn't able to move efficiently until he learned how to circumvent the Ranshinsho. Orocohimaru could use Oral Rebirth but I doubt he'd be able to pull it off before he is covered in Katsuyu's acid.




> She didn't know he had achieved immortality though, she was surprised to see the face under oro skin
> 
> not knowing that means she had no idea what his abilities are since they last met
> 
> ...



But if Kabuto, somehow who is aware of Orochimaru's abilities, believed that Tsunade's attack was great enough to kill Orochimaru based off of what he saw then it's reasonable to assume that it could've killed him or at least done some significant damage. 

I forgot about all of those instances, but there is one key difference. None of them had Byakugo which constantly heals the body from any damage it takes and rejuvenates the body with chakra. If you believe that Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth can overcome Ranshinsho, which affects the whole body's nervous system. Then Tsunade with Byakugo should be able to overcome Orochimaru's paralyzing poison, right?


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 24, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> We can't be so sure, Katsuyu can turn her body into a pool of liquids, don't think poison would be very effective there. There's also the possibility that Katsuyu will decide to split up as soon as Manda bites her and go down his throat..



being a pool of liquid wouldn't get rid of the poison already in her system. so she would just be a poisoned pool

again if she goes down his throat , neither of us can be right in saying what happens. u claim she turns into a pool of acid. I say the manda digestive acid reduces her acid to nothing

.





> He wasn't able to move efficiently until he learned how to circumvent the Ranshinsho. Orocohimaru could use Oral Rebirth but I doubt he'd be able to pull it off before he is covered in Katsuyu's acid..



he could pull it off while sick before being blitz by sasuke, sasuke speed>>>>>>>>>slow acid that couldn't hit a giant snake


.





> But if Kabuto, somehow who is aware of Orochimaru's abilities, believed that Tsunade's attack was great enough to kill Orochimaru based off of what he saw then it's reasonable to assume that it could've killed him or at least done some significant damage. .



no he knew tsunade had killing intent, i.e can harm oro who is already weak. not kill him, kabuto never said to oro u could have died or anything of the sort

.





> I forgot about all of those instances, but there is one key difference. None of them had Byakugo which constantly heals the body from any damage it takes and rejuvenates the body with chakra. If you believe that Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth can overcome Ranshinsho, which affects the whole body's nervous system. Then Tsunade with Byakugo should be able to overcome Orochimaru's paralyzing poison, right?



byakuyo uses chakra, guess what poison tampers with? chakra

oral rebirth has overcome things tsunade body simply cant. i.e Amaterasu for one..

so no sadly it doesn't work like that, considering oral rebirth creates an entirely new body. byakuyo is healing a damaged one,


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 24, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> being a pool of liquid wouldn't get rid of the poison already in her system. so she would just be a poisoned pool
> 
> again if she goes down his throat , neither of us can be right in saying what happens. u claim she turns into a pool of acid. I say the manda digestive acid reduces her acid to nothing



I'm saying that she floods his insides with acid by spewing it all out inside of him, not that she literally turns into acid. That is completely speculative. You're saying that Manda's body's natural digestive acid is above Katsuyu's acid that can actually be used offensively to melt through rock and prompted Manda to avoid. That is a ridiculous assumption.

.



> he could pull it off while sick before being blitz by sasuke, sasuke speed>>>>>>>>>slow acid that couldn't hit a giant snake



Being sick =/= to being paralyzed by having your nervous system disrupted. Manda despite being a giant snake has shown that he is incredibly fast, so his size doesn't matter.
.



> no he knew tsunade had killing intent, i.e can harm oro who is already weak. not kill him, kabuto never said to oro u could have died or anything of the sort



Why would Kabuto bother  stopping Tsunade from touching Orochimaru  and  telling Orochimaru that her chakra was filled with intent to kill  if he didn't suspect it could kill him?
.



> byakuyo uses chakra, guess what poison tampers with? chakra
> 
> oral rebirth has overcome things tsunade body simply cant. i.e Amaterasu for one..
> 
> so no sadly it doesn't work like that, considering oral rebirth creates an entirely new body. byakuyo is healing a damaged one,




Just reread the Sasuke vs. Orochimaru chapter. First off, the poison that Orochimaru uses isn't the same poison that Sasori or Hanzo uses. So automatically giving them all the same status doesn't make sense. Orochimaru can only poison Tsunade if she exposes the blood of his true form to herself that evaporates into the air. On top of this, when Sasuke was caught in the poison they were in a confined space not out in the open like Tsunade and Orochimaru are here so it may take longer or not even work. To make this even worse, unlike Sasuke, Tsunade has Katsuyu on her side who she can camp in and who can fire acid at Orochimaru.


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Apr 24, 2016)

Itachі said:


> How easy do you think it would be for Orochimaru to actually best Tsunade in CQC though?


if hes using kusanagi, he ragdolls then bifurcates her w/ zero difficulty


----------



## t0xeus (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> She kills him by using Ranshinsho to paralyze him and then uses her unnamed medical-ninjutsu to kill him like it was implied it could or Katsuyu kills him with her acid that was also implied to kill him.


Could you link me where Tsunade mentions having a medical-ninjutsu to kill Orochimaru please? I don't remember it at all.


----------



## Bonly (Apr 25, 2016)

Tsunade eventually either punches Orochi's light out for good or Katsuyu gives him an acid bath to take him out, Orochi doesn't have what it takes to put her down for good. 



t0xeus said:


> Could you link me where Tsunade mentions having a medical-ninjutsu to kill Orochimaru please? I don't remember it at all.



Tsunade herself never personally mentions having such but here Tsunade goes to use some medical ninjutsu to "heal" Orochi's arms but we see here that Orochi mentions that she was trying to kill him and then again here we see Kabuto mention how both of them are medical ninja so he was able to tell that she planned on killing Orochi with that jutsu so that's where people get that from


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

@Isaiah13000

Why won't the digestive juices of manda be worth mentioning to again Katsuyu acid which has amounted to doing nothing and has no hype

In any case every Offence tsunade has isn't going to amount to much

Need those scans suggesting she immune to poison till then she looses

Orochimaru has clones he doesn't even need to risk his real body

 
You think orochimaru can't use snake hands to poison tsunade despite the snakes being capable of bitting and injecting poison 

Oro poison stopped Sasuke from moving , his true form his blood itself is poison 

However his snakes like all snakes have poison . Read DB if u need to inform urself


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> That isn't true at all, Guy used the Eight Gates which automatically results in death and the last Tenketsu is simply located at the heart. It has never been said that the heart is the center of chakra and if it's removed you lose the ability to use chakra.
> 
> He cannot suffocate her though and he'd be more on the defensive than she would be making him being able to impale her brain unlikely.



Just going to point out another instance..

Naruto's heart artery got cut by Kabuto.

Kyubi's chakra instantly dissipated and couldn't heal Naruto.

and we know that the Kyuubi's chakra flows from Naruto's stomach



Icegaze said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> Why won't the digestive juices of manda be worth mentioning to again Katsuyu acid which has amounted to doing nothing and has no hype
> 
> ...



I'm not going to say Tsunade is immune to poison. but she does have an ability that lets her remove and separate poison from a human body which was demonstrated by Sakura when she cured Kankuro.

I'd even call the need for the antidote bullshit. considering the antidote was only use for plot purposes..


----------



## Esdese (Apr 25, 2016)

Tsunade wins because 
1) tits 
2) I aint gay


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 25, 2016)

Anyway Oro doesn't really have anything that can deal with 5% Katsuyu.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Just going to point out another instance..
> 
> Naruto's heart artery got cut by Kabuto.
> 
> ...



Lol when Sakura did that it was out of battle 
Also oro can just keep poisoning her lastly what Sakura used to extract poison requires Chakra control which poison tampers with 

Still yet to understand how she tanks Kusanagi swing to the neck


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Isaiah13000
> 
> Why won't the digestive juices of manda be worth mentioning to again Katsuyu acid which has amounted to doing nothing and has no hype
> 
> ...



Cause Katsuyu's acid is an offensive technique that prompted Manda to avoid and can melt through solid rock. Normal stomach acid =/= projectile acid that can kill Manda and Orochimaru.

Tsunade only needs to land Ranshinsho once so that Katsuyu can kill him.

When has Orochimaru effectively used Bunshins in battle?

Orochimaru's poison is irrelevant because:

1. We don't know what kind of effect it will have on Tsunade.
2. We don't know if his snake's poison is the same as his blood poison.
3. In every form of fictional media characters with healing factors are either resistant or immune to poisons.
4. Tsunade is the greatest medical-nin in the world, her being unable to detect and come up for a counter against his poison with Katsuyu there is unlikely.
5. He actually has to land his poison first.
6. Where was his poison when he fought Tsunade and Jiraiya? 




shade0180 said:


> Just going to point out another instance..
> 
> Naruto's heart artery got cut by Kabuto.
> 
> ...



Chapter.

The chances of her falling to his poison are slim in general.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

@Isaiah13000
The acid didn't prompt manda to avoid ,  that gives it credit it shouldnt have . He side stepped it because it was slow , why waste time with such

Katsuyu acid has no speed to suggest it can be done quicker than oro can spit himself out

Though how does rashin tech work on Yamata ???

He used it against Anko to avoid a technique which was to be lethal to him , Anko suicide tech which he thought her


Oro poison is certainly more relevant than featless acid

No reason to believe of the 3 poisons used in the manga oro's will be the only that's different and would have no effect like u claim

Snakes are poisonous , read the DB his snake bites are poisonous , same as a snake bite would be in real life 

What we know of all poison so far is it tampers with chakra in the manga 

Landing attacks against tsunade is quite easy she lacks the range to hit him while he doesn't suffer that , he can and has shown to use clones 

Oro couldn't use snake hands in the battle with the sannin because his hands and therefore his ninjutsu was sealed

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Mithos (Apr 25, 2016)

Orochimaru is going to defeat Tsunade with the Kusanagi? We've already seen how that went: Tsunade took it like a champ, regenerated, and punched Orochimaru's lights out. We've seen her deal with other sword attacks, too, and they were no more effective.

Tsunade's Byakugou lets her deal with Orochimaru's attacks better than he can deal with hers. We've seen that even one punch from her can temporarily knock him unconscious. Oral Rebirth doesn't stop Ranshinshou. And, supposedly, she can kill him with reverse medical ninjutsu.

Tsunade also has, with Byakugou, much larger chakra reserves, so she should win a battle of attrition.

However, here Orochimaru has access to Edo Hiruzen, and Tsunade can't deal with Edo Tensei very well. Adding Hiruzen here would make it very difficult for Tsunade.

Verdict: Tsunade wins if Edo Tensei isn't used; Orochimaru wins with it.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

@Mithos 
Tsunade never took it to the neck and she wasn't even the target of all Kusanagi attacks . A tad disingenuous to imply she somehow gonna tank a slash to the neck 

One punch from her could knock him down when his body was rejecting him and he couldn't use his hands

Though in that case won't he just fight with clones , not sure how split in half has no effect on him but a punch is to temporarily stop him 

Prove oral rebirth that's shat on much more potent attacks won't stop rashin . Based on what ?

So ur claim basically is featless med jutsu that wasn't even said to kill oro can 

And oro has to be restricted for tsunade to win with this imaginary medical ninjutsu 

Don't see how oro ability has allowed him to survive things far more dangerous and harder to avoid than tsunade bland attacks but somehow she kills him


----------



## shade0180 (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Chapter.
> 
> The chances of her falling to his poison are slim in general.



Not sure, I'll just say which arc they happened..

The one where Kabuto cut Naruto's heart artery was during the Tsunade search, Tsunade was fightning with Kabuto...

the one where Sakura used some type of unnamed jutsu to remove a poison from Kankuro was during the Kazekage rescue arc.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Isaiah13000
> The acid didn't prompt manda to avoid ,  that gives it credit it shouldnt have . He side stepped it because it was slow , why waste time with such
> 
> Katsuyu acid has no speed to suggest it can be done quicker than oro can spit himself out
> ...



No. If the acid wasn't capable of harming him he could've just immediately blitzed to Katsuyu from the front and devour her. Instead, he dodged the acid and moved around behind her and then wrapped her body and aimed to devour her. He avoided the acid because it would've melted him. Orochimaru himself later told Katsuyu that if she wanted too she could kill him with his acid if she really didn't trust him.

Katsuyu counters Yamata and every snake that Orochimaru summons. We've been over this, Slug > Snake.

That still isn't enough to guarantee a win. That still doesn't change the fact that we don't know what it would do to Tsunade with Byakugo. It works independent of her will, constantly heals her, and constantly supplies her with chakra. She also knows how to create antidotes to poison too.

Both of them will have to engage in CQC to defeat the other, and once he gets close even one punch from her is enough to stun him long enough to allow her to use Ranshinsho and then Katsuyu follows up with acid.

He can still expel snakes from his mouth and make them produce blades too.




shade0180 said:


> Not sure, I'll just say which arc they happened..
> 
> The one where Kabuto cut Naruto's heart artery was during the Tsunade search, Tsunade was fightning with Kabuto...
> 
> the one where Sakura used some type of unnamed jutsu to remove a poison from Kankuro was during the Kazekage rescue arc.



Then that's just a result of taking a grave injury. 

I know about that already, which contributes to me further not seeing how poison will stop Tsunade.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

A fire jutsu with far better , hype speed and range couldn't melt him , acid isn't going to bother manda considering he can side step it for sport

Yh and he really thought her acid could kill him , the translation says you can liquif me if you want . Considering oral Rebirth survived Amaterasu which >>>>>> hype less acid I am thinking oral rebirth would have no issues with the acid

Slug greater than snake so much so bunta stepped in to save a Katsuyu won't immediately got speed blitz

Slug > snake as a argument is as weak as me saying snake > frog therefore oro beats Jiriaya

Antidotes require things not found on the battlefield though , so ain't making one while fighting

Byakugo supplies her with her chakra through a seal , it's still her chakra and poison will prevent molding chakra which she needs for her super strength in any case

Those snakes aren't snake hands though , we talking about using

A technique which has snakes bite you . He can't do that without his hands 

Again oro got clones so he can feint the one dimensional tsunade and blind side her , that's a lot more likely than her getting the better of him

Oro also has underground digging tech to make the distance between them without being read 

Fact is thanks to manda and oro ability to stretch  got a lot better mobility than tsuande, so he will always get to her before she gets to him 

Also note Kabuto simple technique for fighting her , keep avoiding her one dimensional style and play on the counter . Something someone with clones and doton can easily pull off 

Oro has also used elemental jutsu which again can be used to blind side her


----------



## Thunder (Apr 25, 2016)

Not seeing how Tsunade wins this as _Edo Tensei_ is unrestricted. A fact many are glossing over here.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> A fire jutsu with far better , hype speed and range couldn't melt him , acid isn't going to bother manda considering he can side step it for sport
> 
> Yh and he really thought her acid could kill him , the translation says you can liquif me if you want . Considering oral Rebirth survived Amaterasu which >>>>>> hype less acid I am thinking oral rebirth would have no issues with the acid
> 
> ...



Fire =/= acid. If Manda bites Katsuyu, she divides in his mouth and kills him with acid which he cannot do shit to counter. He cannot do anything to Katsuyu whatsoever. 

Sasuke only survived because Itachi let him, Amaterasu burns slowly, and fire =/= acid. 

Again, speed blitzing does not matter because Manda cannot harm Katsuyu, she literally split up right after he grabbed her. Had he bitten her and devoured her that wouldn't matter because like she said, "I can survive being torn apart just fine" and then she floods his insides with acid. But that is the order. Orochimaru and Manda > Jiraiya and Gamabunta > Tsunade and Katsuyu > Orochimaru and Manda. 

I'm done with the "Orochimaru's poison > Tsunade's healing" argument because we do not know how it would work on her. It's difficulty to argue both for or against it because it's never happened, and again giving all poison the same abilities is speculative. 

Why does it matter? Snakes are snakes, why does summoning them from his hands or from his mouth impact why they are or aren't poisonous? 

Orochimaru has never used Kage Bunshin against top-tier opponents let alone used a Kawarimi to trick them during the midst of battle. Katsuyu also prevents any Kawarimis or blindside attacks from dealing a critical blow to Tsunade.

Kabuto's performance against her is a pitiful example and you know it. Kabuto had to take a pill to even be able to combat her and what he fought was a rusty and hemophobic Tsunade. The current Tsunade would one-shot Kabuto from Part 1 easily.

None of the elemental ninjutsu he has displayed is great enough to be of use against Tsunade.


----------



## Itachі (Apr 25, 2016)

Thunder said:


> Not seeing how Tsunade wins this as _Edo Tensei_ is unrestricted. A fact many are glossing over here.



Assume that she has standard sealing tags to take care of Hiruzen.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Fire =/= acid. If Manda bites Katsuyu, she divides in his mouth and kills him with acid which he cannot do shit to counter. He cannot do anything to Katsuyu whatsoever.



why would bitting katsuyu result in a divided portion entering his mouth? though I could say bunta saved katsuyu therefore manda could have killed katsuyu there since u implied fealtess medical ninjutsu could kill oro due to kabuto reacting to "save orochimaru"



> Sasuke only survived because Itachi let him, Amaterasu burns slowly, and fire =/= acid.



say that to frog stomach and hachibi which Amaterasu put down. Amaterasu still>>>>>>>fealtess acid all day



> Again, speed blitzing does not matter because Manda cannot harm Katsuyu, she literally split up right after he grabbed her. Had he bitten her and devoured her that wouldn't matter because like she said, "I can survive being torn apart just fine" and then she floods his insides with acid. But that is the order. Orochimaru and Manda > Jiraiya and Gamabunta > Tsunade and Katsuyu > Orochimaru and Manda.



manda doesn't need to attack katsuyu its attacks are too slow to hit manda to begin with, manda can dig underground and only focus on attacking tsunade who he can certainly harm

yh that order stuff is weak posting



> I'm done with the "Orochimaru's poison > Tsunade's healing" argument because we do not know how it would work on her. It's difficulty to argue both for or against it because it's never happened, and again giving all poison the same abilities is speculative.



I am done with it to because its baseless to assume she is immune



> Why does it matter? Snakes are snakes, why does summoning them from his hands or from his mouth impact why they are or aren't poisonous?



because the snakes summoned from his mouth wield kusanagi they are different to the ones who he summons from his hand who don't. different techniques do different things



> Orochimaru has never used Kage Bunshin against top-tier opponents let alone used a Kawarimi to trick them during the midst of battle. Katsuyu also prevents any Kawarimis or blindside attacks from dealing a critical blow to Tsunade.



orochimaru, only had access to ninjutus in 1 battle in the entire manga where he hands weren't sealed. the only other skirmish he had he used it, though I can say tsunade didn't use katsuyu against madara so she wont summon it here. that's weak arguing skills mate, do better



> Kabuto's performance against her is a pitiful example and you know it. Kabuto had to take a pill to even be able to combat her and what he fought was a rusty and hemophobic Tsunade. The current Tsunade would one-shot Kabuto from Part 1 easily.



yet he got the better of her, pitiful in deed




> None of the elemental ninjutsu he has displayed is great enough to be of use against Tsunade.



doesn't need to be, only needs to be a distraction. then again u seem to not understand the concept of easily getting around a massively 1 dimensional character with limited range


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

Though @Isaiah13000 
your entire argument is pointless, oro has access to ET here. so by default he wins as she cant do shit to ET


----------



## Thunder (Apr 25, 2016)

In that case, Tsunade still has to fight an uphill battle here. She'll have to beat Edo Hiruzen before she seals him, and that will prove difficult with Orochimaru there who's already a match for Tsunade one-on-one. Edo Hiruzen does bring a lot to the table in terms of offensive (those elemental blasts may not _kill_ Tsunade and Katsuyu, but they'll sure as hell keep them at bay). _Yamata_ with elemental blasts.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Mithos
> Tsunade never took it to the neck and she wasn't even the target of all Kusanagi attacks . A tad disingenuous to imply she somehow gonna tank a slash to the neck
> 
> One punch from her could knock him down when his body was rejecting him and he couldn't use his hands
> ...



It doesn't matter if she was the target - she still got hit by the Kusanagi numerous times, and it didn't do anything that couldn't be quickly regenerated from. Also, he did attack her and try to kill her on one occasion, and it didn't work.

Orochimaru has to first actually hit her in the neck. There is nothing to suggest he could do so. Tsunade is skilled in evasion, and she is superior in CQC. By trying to decapitate her, he puts himself into her ideal range, where he is less skilled, and to top it off has to land an incredibly difficult type of blow, while she can hit him anywhere.

I don't think puking another body is going to remove the effects on his scrambled nervous system. I'm not even sure he could use Oral Rebirth if he were hit by Ranshinshou: Kabuto, initially, couldn't control his movements at all, so I don't think Orochimaru is going to be able to pull off something much more complicated before Tsunade descends upon him.

Extreme blunt force trauma to the head is a lot different than getting slice in half. Blunt force trauma, as we witnessed, can knock Orochimaru unconscious.

It wasn't outright said it could kill, but Tsunade believed it could kill him, and Kabuto obviously thought it was enough of a threat to intervene and protect Orochimaru. Sure, he has to be restrained or immobile - good thing a punch to the face would leave him reeling long enough, or Ranshinshou would leave him unable to move efficiently.

I really don't think his durability was drastically lowered in his state. Likewise, I could counter and say that Tsunade's strength in that fight was weaker than when she fought Madara.

Attacks that are far more dangerous? Like what? Ametarasu? Ameterasu is more dangerous in the sense that it's much harder to avoid than a punch or kick. In regards to lethality, however, I could argue that Tsunade's attacks are more lethal. Ametarasu didn't immediately kill a samurai because of his armor, but Tsunade's punch would have instantly done the job; A was relatively unhindered by Ameterasu and could amputate his arm to keep fighting, but he would have been in much worse shape taking a direct blow from Tsunade. The effectiveness of an attack depends on match-ups. Orochimaru, who can shed his skin like a snake, has the perfect counter to a fire that never burns out, but that doesn't mean he can withstand the force of Tsunade's punches. In fact, we've been shown the opposite.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> why would bitting katsuyu result in a divided portion entering his mouth? though I could say bunta saved katsuyu therefore manda could have killed katsuyu there since u implied fealtess medical ninjutsu could kill oro due to kabuto reacting to "save orochimaru"



Because that's the easiest way to kill him. She can take advantage of him swallowing her so that she can kill him. No you can't, because it's been confirmed that Manda's attack wouldn't kill her anyway and it's been implied that Tsunade's technique could kill Orochimaru.





> say that to frog stomach and hachibi which Amaterasu put down. Amaterasu still>>>>>>>fealtess acid all day


 Yet Orochimaru says that the acid can kill him.





> manda doesn't need to attack katsuyu its attacks are too slow to hit manda to begin with, manda can dig underground and only focus on attacking tsunade who he can certainly harm. yh that order stuff is weak posting



With his tail? Yeah. With his mouth? No. If he swallowed her he'd end up with similar results, she'd tear him apart from the inside out. He also can't do that if she camps in Katsuyu first.





> I am done with it to because its baseless to assume she is immune
> 
> 
> 
> because the snakes summoned from his mouth wield kusanagi they are different to the ones who he summons from his hand who don't. different techniques do different things



They're all still snakes wielded by Orochimaru, and his effect on her is unknown so none of them really matter.





> orochimaru, only had access to ninjutus in 1 battle in the entire manga where he hands weren't sealed. the only other skirmish he had he used it, though I can say tsunade didn't use katsuyu against madara so she wont summon it here. that's weak arguing skills mate, do better
> 
> 
> 
> yet he got the better of her, pitiful in deed



He didn't use it against Hiruzen though, and she was going to use it against Madara but decided not too.






> doesn't need to be, only needs to be a distraction. then again u seem to not understand the concept of easily getting around a massively 1 dimensional character with limited range



She can tear the entire area apart with her physical attacks (and render Orochimaru stunned with just one) and has the assistance of an invulnerable slug that can create countless clones of itself that can all produce acid that can kill both Orochimaru and Manda. They can all telepathically communicate with each other too to warn the other of blindside attacks (in which 90% would be useless on her). This is the concept that you do not seem to be understanding. She clearly has the advantage. 



Icegaze said:


> Though @Isaiah13000
> your entire argument is pointless, oro has access to ET here. so by default he wins as she cant do shit to ET



Well Edo Tensei isn't a testament of Orochimaru's own power, he could never beat her by himself. That is what I was trying to argue. If Edo Hiruzen is using Part 2 power inflation then he wins for sure, if he isn't, then Oro and Hiruzen win but only with high difficulty.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 25, 2016)

Sansukumi reaffirms Tsunade > Orochimaru, but Edo Tensei + Mokuton (if he has it here) effectively allow him to transcend Sannin tier.

Practically speaking, Hiruzen 's upgraded speed and five-element spitfire will be an irritant for Tsunade, who can cope with his attacks but can't seal him.  

For Orochimaru, Mokuton should grant him even greater resilience - it made Obito immortal and allegedly granted Hashirama regenerative abilities comparable to Tsunade's. Orochimaru was essentially immortal anyways, and an even greater healing factor along with premium quality chakra grants him a decisive edge.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Because that's the easiest way to kill him. She can take advantage of him swallowing her so that she can kill him. No you can't, because it's been confirmed that Manda's attack wouldn't kill her anyway and it's been implied that Tsunade's technique could kill Orochimaru..



lol when was it confirmed manda attack wouldn't kill her. lol the implication was as much as manda being able to kill katsuyu considering bunta stepped in.


.





> Yet Orochimaru says that the acid can kill him..



nope he said you can liquefy me if u want in like 2 different translations, though u can kill me if u want doesn't even imply her acid could kill him. and why would a hypeless slow acid be able to



.





> With his tail? Yeah. With his mouth? No. If he swallowed her he'd end up with similar results, she'd tear him apart from the inside out. He also can't do that if she camps in Katsuyu first..



scans of her doing this or even implied to be able to. based on what, one might as well say if trapped inside jiriaya toad gourd prison she rips out its insides. lol



.





> They're all still snakes wielded by Orochimaru, and his effect on her is unknown so none of them really matter..



they matter as much as her featless medical ninjutsu



.





> He didn't use it against Hiruzen though, and she was going to use it against Madara but decided not too..



scans she was going to. would have helped when she was madara clones pin cushion




.





> She can tear the entire area apart with her physical attacks (and render Orochimaru stunned with just one) and has the assistance of an invulnerable slug that can create countless clones of itself that can all produce acid that can kill both Orochimaru and Manda. They can all telepathically communicate with each other too to warn the other of blindside attacks (in which 90% would be useless on her). This is the concept that you do not seem to be understanding. She clearly has the advantage. .



scans of her doing this. so she has the assistance of katsuyu guess that's not her own power. 

odd tsunade seemed to have forgotten this against madara

.





> Well Edo Tensei isn't a testament of Orochimaru's own power, he could never beat her by himself. That is what I was trying to argue. If Edo Hiruzen is using Part 2 power inflation then he wins for sure, if he isn't, then Oro and Hiruzen win but only with high difficulty.



then katsuyu isn't a testatement of tsunade own power. 

either way u gotta restrict oro for tsunade to win


----------



## Richard Lionheart (Apr 25, 2016)

Without ET Oro has basically nothing to take her down. Only those, who believe poison or a useless sword can kill her, think otherwise. 

It's not like Tsunade is on another level than Oro, but she is a bad matchup. Just like SM Jiraiya is a bad match up for Tsunade, but also on a similar level.

If Edo Hiruzen is by Oro's side, Tsuna's chances of winning are pretty slim. The Third is basically a copy of Jiraiya with equally magnificent offensive Ninjutsu. He will be a bigger annoyance than Oro to be honest,lol.

The only way for her to win is to engage the zombie in close combat and destroy him Jubito like. While it would be nice to see, pulling that off would be very difficult.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

@Legendary Pervert 
 she cant really do anything to ET. all she can do is wait to die

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Thunder (Apr 25, 2016)

The OP granted Tsunade sealing tags so she does have an answer for _Edo Tensei_ if that changes anything for you.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> lol when was it confirmed manda attack wouldn't kill her. lol the implication was as much as manda being able to kill katsuyu considering bunta stepped in.



I don't know. Maybe when she slipped out of his grip, said she can survive being torn apart just fine, survived CST and CT, KN4 - KN 6 Naruto's corrosive chakra cloak all without any damage at all? Not to mention she also has the backup of the Snake > Toad > Slug order? Yet you continue to believe that Manda biting her is going to kill her.






> nope he said you can liquefy me if u want in like 2 different translations, though u can kill me if u want doesn't even imply her acid could kill him. and why would a hypeless slow acid be able to



Which would kill him...






> scans of her doing this or even implied to be able to. based on what, one might as well say if trapped inside jiriaya toad gourd prison she rips out its insides. lol



She can constantly heal and has super strength?! Nonsense. Jiraiya's Toad Gourd Prison is a unique Jutsu that pretty much sends the opponent into an entirely different space condensed inside of a small toad that is filled with an actual environment and no organs inside of it. They're not comparable at all, stop acting ignorant.



.



> they matter as much as her featless medical ninjutsu



Well considering one was implied to kill him... and the other has no hype or feats at all...



.



> scans she was going to. would have helped when she was madara clones pin cushion



 Here  we see Tsunade performing a hand seal. She wold only do that if she was about to summon something, considering she doesn't use any ninjutsu. But then his Susanoo faded as the Edo Tensei wore off.



.



> scans of her doing this. so she has the assistance of katsuyu guess that's not her own power.
> 
> odd tsunade seemed to have forgotten this against madara



Tsunade's attacks have always destroyed the area, Katsuyu can canonically telepathically communicate with her slugs and divide, and the acid can kill them. It is a tactic that she can logically employ if she needs too against Orochimaru. But if you want to be stubborn, then I need scans of Orochimaru using snakes and elemental ninjutsu against Tsunade.



> then katsuyu isn't a testatement of tsunade own power.
> 
> either way u gotta restrict oro for tsunade to win



No. Edo Tensei is one of the most overpowered and hax techniques in the entirety of the Manga. Summoning your own personal summon who is your ally and friend isn't the same as summoning other undead and powerful Shinobi to fight for you. You're being really disingenuous now. Unless you're going to classify the entire Edo Tensei army as apart of Kabuto's power.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> I don't know. Maybe when she slipped out of his grip, said she can survive being torn apart just fine, survived CST and CT, KN4 - KN 6 Naruto's corrosive chakra cloak all without any damage at all? Not to mention she also has the backup of the Snake > Toad > Slug order? Yet you continue to believe that Manda biting her is going to kill her.
> .



well imam leave this argument. since the best u are doing so far is snake>toad>slug order BS





.





> Which would kill him....



fan fic. when orochimaru actually feels threatened he makes it obvious, eg : BD he said even I would die if that hit me. no such comment was made about featless acid




.





> She can constantly heal and has super strength?! Nonsense. Jiraiya's Toad Gourd Prison is a unique Jutsu that pretty much sends the opponent into an entirely different space condensed inside of a small toad that is filled with an actual environment inside of it. They're not comparable at all, stop acting ignorant..



super strength in a sea of gastric acid. how useful...yes toad gourd prison is unique. u know what isn't? gastric acid


.



.





> Well considering one was implied to kill him... and the other has no hype or feats at all....



lol yh , it surely was  because kabuto said she had killing intent. way to twist the manga

.



.





> Here  we see Tsunade performing a hand seal. She wold only do that if she was about to summon something, considering she doesn't use any ninjutsu. But then his Susanoo faded as the Edo Tensei wore off..



so she waited till half way through the battle. what says she doesn't do that here

.



.





> Tsunade's attacks have always destroyed the area, Katsuyu can canonically telepathically communicate with her slugs and divide, and the acid can kill them. It is a tactic that she can logically employ if she needs too against Madara. But if you want to be stubborn, then I need scans of Orochimaru using snakes and elemental ninjutsu against Tsunade..



scans of her attacks destroying the ara. ill wait. since u asking for scans of orochimaru using snakes. though u sounding dense considering the only time he fought tsunade he could not use ninjutsu at all !! I don't know what part of that is hard to get 


.





> No. Edo Tensei is one of the most overpowered and hax techniques in the entirety of the Manga. Summoning your own personal summon who is your ally and friend isn't the same as summoning other undead and powerful Shinobi to fight for you. You're being really disingenuous now.



hardly a summon is a summon. oro simply has access to something better.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 25, 2016)

DB 2 implies manda actually used some skin shedding technique to avoid the fire jutsu which covered him

sasuke a novice at using orochimaru snake techniques could easily avoid a technique that could burn him in half. I really need to get how acid that misses a giant target hits one who can imitate that giant snake ability to shed his skin. just curious


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 25, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> well imam leave this argument. since the best u are doing so far is snake>toad>slug order BS



If you believe that Manda biting Katsuyu is going to kill her and that his featless poison is going to be effective when she has been portrayed as being invulnerable throughout the entirety of the Manga and was able to prompt Manda (who can shed his skin to negate damage) to avoid her "featless acid" then you have lost this argument.



> fan fic. when orochimaru actually feels threatened he makes it obvious, eg : BD he said even I would die if that hit me. no such comment was made about featless acid



He knew she wasn't going to attack him which is why he didn't act like he was afraid. Orochimaru has never exhibited such an ability that would allow him to survive being liquefied from head to toe.



> super strength in a sea of gastric acid. how useful...yes toad gourd prison is unique. u know what isn't? gastric acid



We don't know how powerful the acid in Manda's stomach is and for all we know Tsunade with Byakugo could survive the Toad Guard Prison, stop making up bullshit feats for Manda to be able to harm Tsunade and Katsuyu. He cannot do shit.



> lol yh , it surely was  because kabuto said she had killing intent. way to twist the manga



Not addressing this any further. You keep telling me that it wouldn't kill Orochimaru when Kabuto, Orochimaru's right-hand man who is aware of Orochimaru's abilities including his "immortality" stopped Tsunade from using her technique that he said was filled with killing intent. If he didn't believe it could kill him or at least severely harm him, he wouldn't have stopped it. Period.



> so she waited till half way through the battle. what says she doesn't do that here



When she uses Katsuyu doesn't matter. She can handle Orochimaru herself without Katsuyu, and if decides to summon Manda then she summons Katsuyu and the battle is over.




> scans of her attacks destroying the ara. ill wait. since u asking for scans of orochimaru using snakes. though u sounding dense considering the only time he fought tsunade he could not use ninjutsu at all !! I don't know what part of that is hard to get



When she punches or kicks the ground the area is destroyed, remember when she first attacked Orochimaru or Kabuto? I'm not gonna go grab scans for something that anyone who has read the Manga knows. That doesn't matter that much because Orochimaru has never exhibited that many or any powerful ninjutsu. Aside from some basic Katon, Futon, Kage Bunshin, and Shuriken Kage Bunshin. What has he done?





> hardly a summon is a summon. oro simply has access to something better.



We'll have to agree to disagree here then.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2016)

Orochimaru's regeneration is more powerful than Tsunade's, but I don't think it matters. Orochimaru has few ways of actually inflicting damage to her - his sea of snakes can be wiped out from the shockwaves behind her punches, his fuuton isn't going to do much, and his Kusanagi can be avoided because it isn't exceptionally fast (KN4 did not have good reaction feats). Kage Bunshin are useful for diverting Tsunade's attention temporarily, but they aren't a good enough diversion for Orochimaru to kill her.

As for his blood poison, it only works when his true form has been cut. When his host body gets damaged, surrounding people tend not to be poisoned (see his fights with Hiruzen, Itachi and Jiraiya for proof). If his real body comes out its because his host body has been destroyed, and if that happens, Tsunade still has Katsuyu to melt his true form before it could possess her.

He could also use Yamata no Orochi - that's true. But then Tsunade and Katsuyu should be equally capable of fending them off. If Tsunade chakra-pumped her slug, it's acid blasts could be enormous enough to wipe most of Yamata no Orochimaru out in one hit. And since the snake heads don't seem extraordinarily fast, I'm sure Tsunade could bat their heads away just like she did with Madara's fire balls.

On the other hand, Orochimaru is going to eat hits to the face unless he repeatedly runs away from Tsunade. And if he does that, he will run out of stamina before she does (thanks to Byakugou). But likewise, he will use up all of his chakra regenerating if he keeps eating blows.

So Tsunade will either exhaust him until he dies, or kill his true form with Katsuyu. She takes it with high difficulty.​


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

@Godaime Tsunade 
Need one scan of shockwaves behind tsunade punches 
I haven't seen any honestly


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

@Godaime Tsunade 
Also note Yamata oro strongest snake form should be able to shed its skin to recover from the acid . Manda and weaker snakes have shown this would be odd oro strongest form can't do it 
And skin shedding has trolled more lethal techniques than acid 
Your post also forgets ET which she can do nothing against


----------



## Mithos (Apr 26, 2016)

How is shedding skin going to stop acid? Acid is not the same as fire: fire burns the top layer of skin, while acid quickly _melts through_ the skin to liquefy deeper layers of flesh. They are in no way comparable.

As for scans of Tsunade creating shock-waves, we have a proxy-feat from Sakura's punch, which was described as _maybe_ being more powerful than Tsunade's own. If Tsunade can hit even half as hard as Sakura (that's a generous low estimate since if that were the case, Hashirama would have mentioned clearly that Sakura's strength was far superior), she could eradicate a sea of snakes in a few ground pounds.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Apr 26, 2016)

Orochimaru's Oral Rebirth technique was praised by Itachi as being untraceable; Sasuke was able to use it so fast that Itachi's Sharingan couldn't even see it. I'd wager that Orochimaru would be able to use it before the acid actually melted through the skin and damaged the 'second body'.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

Mithos said:


> How is shedding skin going to stop acid? Acid is not the same as fire: fire burns the top layer of skin, while acid quickly _melts through_ the skin to liquefy deeper layers of flesh. They are in no way comparable.
> 
> As for scans of Tsunade creating shock-waves, we have a proxy-feat from Sakura's punch, which was described as _maybe_ being more powerful than Tsunade's own. If Tsunade can hit even half as hard as Sakura (that's a generous low estimate since if that were the case, Hashirama would have mentioned clearly that Sakura's strength was far superior), she could eradicate a sea of snakes in a few ground pounds.



This acid melting through top layer of the skin is your assumption and not substantiated by the manga . Again skin shedding was used to avoid a technique that melts/burns  a body in half 

Acid ain't doing worse than that so manda trolls it

In short we have no tsunade feat then . Could say since Kabuto could gather senjutsu to make his snakes bigger in base oro who can also use senjutsu can do the same

If u ask for scans I'll ask for those tsunade shockwave scans


----------



## Mithos (Apr 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> This acid melting through top layer of the skin is your assumption and not substantiated by the manga . Again skin shedding was used to avoid a technique that melts/burns  a body in half
> 
> Acid ain't doing worse than that so manda trolls it
> 
> ...



Acid melting through the skin is logical. It _melted_ through the rock; it didn't burn it. Shedding was used to avoid a technique that _burns_ - Toad Flame Bombs - and that is not the same thing. Orochimaru himself said that Katsuyu's acid can _liquefy_ him. Fire attacks don't liquefy people, and even Ameterasu doesn't do that.

My "assumption" is substantiated by what we've seen and what characters have said. You're assuming that because Manda shed his skin to evade fire he can do so if he's hit with acid, but that doesn't make sense given the different nature of the attacks, as I've already explained.



> NINJUTSU; Zesshi Nensan (Tongue and Teeth Acidic Paste)





> User: Katsuyu
> Offensive; Close, Medium, Long Ranges; Rank: none
> 
> Main text
> ...


Making his snakes bigger won't really help that much against her. But your comparison is bad anyway: Sakura's strength was _directly_ compared to Tsunade's, while Orochimaru has never mastered senjutsu in the same way Kabuto has. I don't care to debate this point much further because it doesn't matter. I presented my reasoning for why Tsunade could make shock-waves comparable to Sakura's. If you disagree, you need to make an argument for why she shouldn't be able to - not use a false comparison that has no standing. Whether or not Orochimaru can use senjutsu to enlarge snakes has no bearing on Tsunade's strength.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Acid melting through the skin is logical. It _melted_ through the rock; it didn't burn it. Shedding was used to avoid a technique that _burns_ - Toad Flame Bombs - and that is not the same thing. Orochimaru himself said that Katsuyu's acid can _liquefy_ him. Fire attacks don't liquefy people, and even Ameterasu doesn't do that.
> 
> My "assumption" is substantiated by what we've seen and what characters have said. You're assuming that because Manda shed his skin to evade fire he can do so if he's hit with acid, but that doesn't make sense given the different nature of the attacks, as I've already explained.
> 
> ​Making his snakes bigger won't really help that much against her. But your comparison is bad anyway: Sakura's strength was _directly_ compared to Tsunade's, while Orochimaru has never mastered senjutsu in the same way Kabuto has. I don't care to debate this point much further because it doesn't matter. I presented my reasoning for why Tsunade could make shock-waves comparable to Sakura's. If you disagree, you need to make an argument for why she shouldn't be able to - not use a false comparison that has no standing. Whether or not Orochimaru can use senjutsu to enlarge snakes has no bearing on Tsunade's strength.



Sasori fodder fire canon melted rock 
Point is shedding allowed manda to avoid an attack that completely covered him

So oro who also has the same technique does the same thing to acid 

Shedding again avoided 1 attack with far more range than acid and also a jutsu which can melt rock like acid can , considering fodder fire canon can melt rock 

Lol u can go pout 

Don't care to debate when featless acid is the bulk of the argument


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> This acid melting through top layer of the skin is your assumption and not substantiated by the manga . Again skin shedding was used to avoid a technique that melts/burns  a body in half
> 
> Acid ain't doing worse than that so manda trolls it
> 
> ...



You keep insinuating that Manda can troll the acid even though he himself decided to dodge it instead of "lol troll this featless acid" like you keep implying. 

Tsunade is Sakura's teacher, Sakura's strength is compared to Tsunade's meaning they're roughly on par with Sakura's possibly being stronger as stated by Hashirama, who hasn't seen Tsunade's strength in action for a very long time. 

Complete bull. Orochimaru has never shown the ability to use Senjutsu offensively by himself let alone to enlarge his snakes which wouldn't even matter against the acid anyway. 

Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Tsunade > Orochimaru, the order is simple, Tsunade would beat him with high difficulty. It doesn't matter if you dislike the character herself, but she is more than capable of defeating him as opposed to him defeating her. Your constant reaching and speculative responses only further proves that you cannot come up with a legit argument as to how Orochimaru and Manda will beat Tsunade and Katsuyu. Edo Tensei is the only way he is going to beat her, and that isn't an example of his own power.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

Easily side stepping a technique is trolling it . Why waste chakra using jutsu to avoid a technique slow enough to side step

Oro has shown the ability to absorb his own senjutsu chakra

U know what hasn't been shown these imaginary shock waves by tsunade punch

I don't dislike tsunade at all . I just believe in fair arguments urs is clearly not

It's imaginary shockwaves yet I can't imagine stuff for orochimaru ?

Guess Katsuyu ain't tsunade power , gotta hold characters to the same standard . Uou aren't doing that , a summon is a summon. Oro simply has better summon through ET


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Easily side stepping a technique is trolling it . Why waste chakra using jutsu to avoid a technique slow enough to side step
> 
> Oro has shown the ability to absorb his own senjutsu chakra
> 
> ...



Doesn't change the fact that he cannot harm her unless he wants to die.

He still cannot use it in battle.

Not addressing the punches anymore, I'd just be repeating myself.

So then you admit that Orochimaru can only win with ET, congrats, you have proven my argument.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @Godaime Tsunade
> Need one scan of shockwaves behind tsunade punches
> I haven't seen any honestly



Really.... Do you really need panels of Tsuande creating Shockwave's or are you simply being disingenuous? We have seen much weaker characters create Shockwave's. We have even seen characters like Sakura create Shockwave's with the AoE of FRS. And before you say, " but Tsuande isn't Sakura ", let me get real petty and bring up the fact that:
A) Shizune wasn't even surprised about Sakura's strength rather her ability to activate her seal.
B) Hashirama said that Sakura might be stronger than Tsunade
C) the last time Hashirama saw Tsuande, she was a child.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## ~M~ (Apr 26, 2016)

I will give any sannin battle to Orochimaru because he simply possess the pure durability and DoT abilities to outlast (his entire arsenal and plot line focuses on durability/rebirth) both Jiraiya and Tsunade

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> We have even seen characters like Sakura create Shockwave's with the AoE of FRS. And before you say, " but Tsuande isn't Sakura ", let me get real petty and bring up the fact that:
> A) Shizune wasn't even surprised about Sakura's strength rather her ability to activate her seal.
> B) Hashirama said that Sakura might be stronger than Tsunade
> C) the last time Hashirama saw Tsuande, she was a child.



None of which bode well for Tsunade/Sakura strength equivalence. Shizune wasn't surprised because super strength is super strength. Super-super strength is a quantitative and not a qualitative difference. She's seen it before, many times. 

C is why B doesn't imply that Tsunade and Sakura are physically comparable. Hashirama knew nothing aboutpresent day Tsunade - it's entirely possible that she developed to that level. But even accounting for potential growth, it's important to note that he isn't speculating that Tsunade is comparable to Sakura; he's speculating that Sakura has surpassed Tsunade.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> None of which bode well for Tsunade/Sakura strength equivalence. Shizune wasn't surprised because super strength is super strength. Super-super strength is a quantitative and not a qualitative difference. She's seen it before, many times.
> 
> C is why B doesn't imply that Tsunade and Sakura are physically comparable. Hashirama knew nothing aboutpresent day Tsunade - it's entirely possible that she developed to that level. But even accounting for potential growth, it's important to note that he isn't speculating that Tsunade is comparable to Sakura; he's speculating that Sakura has surpassed Tsunade.



I think the point being made was that Shizune wasn't surprised by the _scale_ of Sakura's strength, not the fact that she could use CES, which Shizune already knew. She had never seen Sakura release that much of her strength before, yet she drew no comparison, nor did she remark on it. The only thing she was surprised by was the fact that she could use the Yin Seal, because its so hard to master.

At any rate, Tsunade's chakra control was visibly less impressive in Part 1 than it was in Part 2. So her ability to blow up the ground is likely a lot better. We've seen Ei performing striking strength feats that were comparable to Part I Tsunade's in scale, yet she is significantly stronger than him in Part II, as cited by Madara. Weaker characters have created shockwaves, so I don't see why hers should be any different. But realistically, I don't think Sakura's striking strength was much, if at all greater than Tsunade's. She hadn't surpassed her yet, which was clear from her lack of ability in other areas.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

@Godaime Tsunade 
What weaker characters have created shock waves with their punch 
Weaker than who ? Tsunade ?

Since when was Kn4 weaker despite his better strength feats ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

Bee and Raikage have created shockwaves with their impacts before, though not on the scale of what Sakura did.



Thunder said:


> Not seeing how Tsunade wins this as _Edo Tensei_ is unrestricted. A fact many are glossing over here.





Thunder said:


> In that case, Tsunade still has to fight an uphill battle here. She'll have to beat Edo Hiruzen before she seals him, and that will prove difficult with Orochimaru there who's already a match for Tsunade one-on-one. Edo Hiruzen does bring a lot to the table in terms of offensive (those elemental blasts may not _kill_ Tsunade and Katsuyu, but they'll sure as hell keep them at bay). _Yamata_ with elemental blasts.



My sentiments as well.

More importantly...hi, Thunder!

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> None of which bode well for Tsunade/Sakura strength equivalence. Shizune wasn't surprised because super strength is super strength. Super-super strength is a quantitative and not a qualitative difference. She's seen it before, many times.
> 
> C is why B doesn't imply that Tsunade and Sakura are physically comparable. Hashirama knew nothing aboutpresent day Tsunade - it's entirely possible that she developed to that level. But even accounting for potential growth, it's important to note that he isn't speculating that Tsunade is comparable to Sakura; he's speculating that Sakura has surpassed Tsunade.



Honestly what Godaime Said.

And Hashirama infering that Sakura > Tsuande is in direct reference to a younger and much weaker Tsuande. Basically you can't say Sakura> Tsuande especially when Tsuande had feats of obliterating Madara's Sussano and heavily outplaying Raikage. I think they are relatively about equal or so, which means Tsuande can replicate her feats.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think the point being made was that Shizune wasn't surprised by the _scale_ of Sakura's strength, not the fact that she could use CES, which Shizune already knew. She had never seen Sakura release that much of her strength before, yet she drew no comparison, nor did she remark on it. The only thing she was surprised by was the fact that she could use the Yin Seal, because its so hard to master.



See one ocean and you've seen them all. My point is that the scale is irrelevant to someone like Shizune, who's already seen CES multiple times, albeit weaker variants. We seem to agree on that, but the issue I have is using this as proof that because no comparison was made between Tsunade and Sakura, then no difference exists.



> At any rate, Tsunade's chakra control was visibly less impressive in Part 1 than it was in Part 2. So her ability to blow up the ground is likely a lot better. We've seen Ei performing striking strength feats that were comparable to Part I Tsunade's in scale, yet she is significantly stronger than him in Part II, as cited by Madara. Weaker characters have created shockwaves, so I don't see why hers should be any different. But realistically, I don't think Sakura's striking strength was much, if at all greater than Tsunade's. She hadn't surpassed her yet, which was clear from her lack of ability in other areas.



Tsunade's chakra control was visibly less impressive because she had fewer feats then. I haven't seen any indication that her chakra control had sharpened - she simply started using abilities she already had. What is clear is that Tsunade is markedly faster and has greater reserves of chakra shored up in her forehead.  



Likes boss said:


> And Hashirama infering that Sakura > Tsuande is in direct reference to a younger and much weaker Tsuande.



If Hashirama's statement concerns a younger Tsunade, then why is he unsure who's stronger? He's seen Sakura, he's seen child Tsunade, so why hesitate in declaring a superior?


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

@PuPPet

Because their strentgh is comparable? Which is align with his statement. 

That also had nothing to do with my Initial reasoning regardless. If you don't disagree with me thinking Tsuande being comprable to Sakura, then I don't necessarily understand why you qouted me.


----------



## Kurak (Apr 26, 2016)

How Tsunade counter curse mark? Or the fact that Kusanagi is cutting her into pieces? She should lose her head early in part 1 durining Oro & Kabuto vs Tsu and Jiraya.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

Orochimaru would bite Tsunade, she would be one of the percentage of people that survived, then Orochimaru would be facing a super Tsunade.


----------



## Bringer (Apr 26, 2016)

Edo Hiruzen gives Orochimaru the win... though it would be interesting to see Katsuyu slurp up edo Hiruzen into her body, have Tsunade slam a sealing tag on it, and then reverse summon back to Humid Bone Forest 

Without edo tensei Tsunade would defeat Orochimaru, but that isn't the case in this thread. gg.


----------



## Kurak (Apr 26, 2016)

Have you forgotten that curse mark gives Oro control over its victim?


----------



## Thunder (Apr 26, 2016)

@Kurak 

Yeah, I've never really bought the whole "Kusanagi doesn't work on Tsunade" argument, at least within the context of the Sannin Showdown in Part I.  It's important to note Orochimaru's overall blade work took a dive in that fight because, well, he was _armless_. Performing quick, successive cuts was impossible and there was less strength and dexterity behind those cuts. So I wouldn't exactly use that as evidence for how Tsunade fairs against kenjutsu in general.

In Tsunade's defense though, the only thing that's really debatable is whether or not a decapitation would work and I'd rather not open that can of worms.

And as a side thought, for some reason Tsunade doesn't carry around any kunai or shuriken on her person. _Maybe she's that confident verses weapon users_. Such confidence must stem from somewhere.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> See one ocean and you've seen them all. My point is that the scale is irrelevant to someone like Shizune, who's already seen CES multiple times, albeit weaker variants. We seem to agree on that, but the issue I have is using this as proof that because no comparison was made between Tsunade and Sakura, then no difference exists.




Sakura has literally become a Tsunade clone, there's no reason to assume that Tsunade cannot do the same. 






> Tsunade's chakra control was visibly less impressive because she had fewer feats then. I haven't seen any indication that her chakra control had sharpened - she simply started using abilities she already had. What is clear is that Tsunade is markedly faster and has greater reserves of chakra shored up in her forehead.



Right here we see Sakura, who's not even injured, being unable to revitalize Shikamaru. Then Tsunade who had just recovered from near-death and being torn in half taps his forehead and he's perfectly fine. Tsunade's chakra control was still clearly superior, and chakra control is the basis of CES, thus, Tsunade's CES is stronger. 






> If Hashirama's statement concerns a younger Tsunade, then why is he unsure who's stronger? He's seen Sakura, he's seen child Tsunade, so why hesitate in declaring a superior?


 Cause it's been like 40 - 50+ years since he's seen Tsunade and has no idea how strong she is now?


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 26, 2016)

@FlamingRain 
What shockwaves have A or B created with a punch I have never seen this scan 
Could you send?


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Because their strentgh is comparable? Which is align with his statement.



Child Tsunade (physically comparable to War Arc Sakura) grows up to be Adult Tsunade who makes vast improvements just in the gap between Part 1 and Part 2 (according to Godaime, who you agree with) and still comes out (by your admission) to be roughly equivalent to War Arc Sakura.

See? In order to maintain consistency you have to argue that Child Tsunade = Adult Tsunade, which doesn't gel with the alleged gains she made.



> If you don't disagree with me thinking Tsuande being comprable to Sakura, then I don't necessarily understand why you qouted me.



I do. It's utter nonsense requiring a deliberate misinterpretation; where a statement praising Sakura is used instead to backhandedly praise Tsunade, and the basis for this is another character's _uncertainty. _


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> Child Tsunade (physically comparable to War Arc Sakura) grows up to be Adult Tsunade who makes vast improvements just in the gap between Part 1 and Part 2 (according to Godaime, who you agree with) and still comes out (by your admission) to be roughly equivalent to War Arc Sakura.
> 
> See? In order to maintain consistency you have to argue that Child Tsunade = Adult Tsunade, which doesn't gel with the alleged gains she made.
> 
> ...



If you're arguing Tsunade > Sakura then so be it. I'm perfectly fine with that assessment. I'm simply againt arguments that say Sakura> Tsuande which is why I replied to Ice gaze who seems to think Tsuande can't make shockwaves for some reason.


----------



## Bringer (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> Child Tsunade (physically comparable to War Arc Sakura) grows up to be Adult Tsunade who makes vast improvements just in the gap between Part 1 and Part 2 (according to Godaime, who you agree with) and still comes out (by your admission) to be roughly equivalent to War Arc Sakura.
> 
> See? In order to maintain consistency you have to argue that Child Tsunade = Adult Tsunade, which doesn't gel with the alleged gains she made.
> 
> ...




Literally every translation includes the word "might". You don't use the word might if the two weren't comparable. 

"maintain consistency" 

Kakashi Chunin exam flashback says hello. 
Tobirama death flashback says hello.
Orochimaru vs Itachi flashback says hello.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

There's enough else in the manga that one could have already guesstimated that Tsunade could accomplish something comparable to Sakura's Jūbling dispersing feat if she were to aim a strike at the floor.

But Hashirama may have inquired about how Tsunade turned out while the Hokage were traveling to the site where the Shinobi Alliance was with Orochimaru and/or Hiruzen informing him about Tsunade's achievements during the era of the Sannin, assuming the time-line shenanigans didn't simply result in Hashirama having seen a teen-collegiate Tsunade himself as BoC implied.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Right here we see Sakura, who's not even injured, being unable to revitalize Shikamaru. Then Tsunade who had just recovered from near-death and being torn in half taps his forehead and he's perfectly fine. Tsunade's chakra control was still clearly superior, and chakra control is the basis of CES, thus, Tsunade's CES is stronger.



Half of the work is done by Naruto and Tsunade gets all the credit? I imagine it's easier to heal someone already on the mend (what Tsunade did) than save someone from the brink of death (what Sakura was trying to do).

Does Tsunade use CES? It's never been stated; it's always been assumed that because she taught it to Sakura she uses it herself. The only reference is to how her strength operates is when Kabuto cut her muscles to weaken her, and that's an implication in the opposite direction. 



> Cause it's been like 40 - 50+ years since he's seen Tsunade and has no idea how strong she is now?



That's my point. 



Likes boss said:


> If you're arguing Tsunade > Sakura then so be it.



I'm not. I'm arguing Sakura > Tsunade.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Literally every translation includes the word "might". You don't use the word might if the two weren't comparable.



You use the word 'might' to express uncertainty. Somehow saying "I don't know" has become "I do know, and they're similar."


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

The second databook says that Tsunade instantly collects Chakra into her fist and fingertips to unleash a power of destruction that bodily strength alone would not achieve. Ōkashō's entry talks about one being able to collect the Chakra into one's fingers, too, which is likely a reference to what Tsunade did to interrupt Naruto's Rasengan in Part 1. Databook 3 was simply used to provide the skill with an official name.



Icegaze said:


> @FlamingRain
> What shockwaves have A or B created with a punch I have never seen this scan
> Could you send?



_Jūgo tried rocketing from Bee yet was affected by turbulence once Bee collided with that plateau_

_The impact of Liger Bomb resulted in an updraft felt by the other ninjas across that room.

It might also be worth considering that, when outside, there's more dust and dirt collected on the field that would be kicked up by the excess force of a significant impact. Which is what most of that "shockwave" is._


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

@PuPPet

Then what basis do you have for Sakura>Tsunade?

Legit your whole argument is against that.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

... My whole argument supports Sakura > Tsunade, so much so I'm baffled how you could conclude anything else. My contention with the Hashirama statement is that it was clearly used to praise Sakura as being above Tsunade, and has somehow been twisted to mean that they're equals in strength. How is that achieved? I don't know; somewhere uncertainty became definite.


----------



## Bringer (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> You use the word 'might' to express uncertainty. Somehow saying "I don't know" has become "I do know, and they're similar."




Yes, but that's clearly not the case here.

He said "She might be stronger than Tsuna!"

Not "She's stronger than Tsuna!"

or

"She blows Tsuna out of the water!"

Yes, the statement praises Sakura by putting her on a similar level to Tsunade, not by saying Tsunade is weak shit compared to Sakura.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 26, 2016)

He says might because he hasn't seen Tsunade inn 40=50+ years, and thus cannot tell whether Sakura really is or isn't. He suspects it, but that doesn't mean she is Likewise, the statement cannot be used to advocate Tsunade=Sakura. Hashirama just doesn't know, and his speculation implies the opposite.



FlamingRain said:


> The second databook says that Tsunade instantly collects Chakra into her fist and fingertips to unleash a power of destruction that bodily strength alone would not achieve.



What entry?


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> ... My whole argument supports Sakura > Tsunade, so much so I'm baffled how you could conclude anything else. My contention with the Hashirama statement is that it was clearly used to praise Sakura as being above Tsunade, and has somehow been twisted to mean that they're equals in strength. How is that achieved? I don't know; somewhere uncertainty became definite.



Lol I can't 

I really would like to hear why you think Sakura is > to Tsuande when Hashirama compared younger Tsunade to Sakura and Adult Tsunade is much stronger with better feats?


----------



## Rocky (Apr 26, 2016)

I think Hashirama's comment was put in the story to let the readers know that Sakura had finally overtaken Tsunade in the striking department, not that Sakura was comparable to toddlernade. Even if we ignore Hashirama altogether, power-scaling up from Ay or Bee would place Tsunade somewhere _around_ Sakura anyway.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


----------



## Mithos (Apr 26, 2016)

Honestly, I think we're meant to take it that Sakura surpassed Tsunade when it comes to CES. However, by how much is the question. To me the "might" implies that they're fairly close in power, but with Sakura having a slight edge.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 26, 2016)

The might makes it comparable IMO. Incorporating might just isn't necessary at all if the author is intending to imply superiority.


----------



## Bringer (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> He says might because he hasn't seen Tsunade inn 40=50+ years, and thus cannot tell whether Sakura really is or isn't. He suspects it, but that doesn't mean she is Likewise, the statement cannot be used to advocate Tsunade=Sakura. Hashirama just doesn't know, and his speculation implies the opposite.



Would toddler Tsunade even have super strength? I'm on the "Kishi forgets his own timeline" boat. Regardless, fucked up timeline or not, we know Kishi's intention. Sakura might be stronger than Tsunade. That's literally the statement. Anything else you want to impose on it is fanfiction.

Now, I do agree Sakura can punch harder than Tsunade, but the difference is minuscule. Out of curiosity how big do you think the gap is?


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> What entry?



It was one of the "Konoha one hundred leaves collection" sections. IIRC it was on the Tsūtenkyaku page.

_Here's one link_.

Somebody posted a quote before in some thread.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> Half of the work is done by Naruto and Tsunade gets all the credit? I imagine it's easier to heal someone already on the mend (what Tsunade did) than save someone from the brink of death (what Sakura was trying to do).
> 
> Does Tsunade use CES? It's never been stated; it's always been assumed that because she taught it to Sakura she uses it herself. The only reference is to how her strength operates is when Kabuto cut her muscles to weaken her, and that's an implication in the opposite direction.



What? Naruto didn't do anything. Shikamaru's condition was still poor and he looked like a human skeleton with some skin despite Sakura's attempts. Tsunade literally touches him and he is complete fine. Tsunade > Sakura in the healing department and therefore chakra control. 

Tsunade and Sakura both clearly use the same technique, they use the exact same fighting style and the description of their abilities are the same. Kakashi even says that Tsunade taught Sakura more than just medical-ninjutsu and describes how their technique works.






> That's my point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your argument is confusing. You're arguing that Sakura is stronger based on Hashirama saying that she might be stronger than her when he is unaware of her full capabilities. While I agree that it was intended to suggest that Sakura is stronger, the amount is minimal.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 26, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> See one ocean and you've seen them all. My point is that the scale is irrelevant to someone like Shizune, who's already seen CES multiple times, albeit weaker variants. We seem to agree on that, but the issue I have is using this as proof that because no comparison was made between Tsunade and Sakura, then no difference exists.




I don't think so. Naruto had seen Sakura's super strength multiple times before, and was still freaked out by the level of destruction. As was Sasuke. It's unusual that Shizune wouldn't comment on it unless she had seen CES inflict destruction of that scale before. 




> Tsunade's chakra control was visibly less impressive because she had fewer feats then. I haven't seen any indication that her chakra control had sharpened - she simply started using abilities she already had. What is clear is that Tsunade is markedly faster and has greater reserves of chakra shored up in her forehead.



 Tsunade's chakra control increase was clear from the fact that she struggled to use a single Shosen no Jutsu in Part I to heal herself (she complains about the chakra consumption). In Part II, she heals thousands at once through Katsuyu, and isn't remotely tired afterwards. There's also the fact that she stores chakra up in her seal for many years, and has to use all of it up for a single usage of Sozou Saisei. In Part II, she stores chakra for a few weeks, and then abuses her regeneration a dozen times. She was out of practice in Part I, so it makes sense that her chakra control sharpened in Part II when she took her medical duties up again.


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2016)

Tsunade was probably attempting to conserve her Chakra until she had already dealt with Kabuto.



Kurak said:


> Have you forgotten that curse mark gives Oro control over its victim?



It doesn't.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2016)

Maybe, but by her facial expressions it was still clear that she was actively struggling to use the the technique. 

And anyway, if it was Part 2 Tsunade, she'd have no need to conserve her chakra, because her stamina is so huge.


----------



## Mithos (Apr 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> The might makes it comparable IMO. Incorporating might just isn't necessary at all if the author is intending to imply superiority.



They can still be comparable even if Sakura's a little stronger, though.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 27, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The second databook says that Tsunade instantly collects Chakra into her fist and fingertips to unleash a power of destruction that bodily strength alone would not achieve. Ōkashō's entry talks about one being able to collect the Chakra into one's fingers, too, which is likely a reference to what Tsunade did to interrupt Naruto's Rasengan in Part 1. Databook 3 was simply used to provide the skill with an official name.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Fair enough flaming . I stand corrected 

So she can block 1000 snake jutsu with her shockwave . Don't see how that kills oro who has survived stronger shockwaves 
BD, KN3 swing and so on 

Think about it . She has to exhaust him to win

He only needs to be lucky and remove her head . The odds are in his favour , more so because poison isn't something that even ET can resist against , so tsunade certainly ain't laughing it off


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 27, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Maybe, but by her facial expressions it was still clear that she was actively struggling to use the the technique.
> 
> And anyway, if it was Part 2 Tsunade, she'd have no need to conserve her chakra, because her stamina is so huge.



Her facial expression was like that because Kabuto went for her intercostal muscles when Tsunade was already breathing fast. 

But yes, she would be fine if in Part 2 since she shaped up again _and_ began accumulating greater amounts of pre-molded Chakra in the Byakugō diamond.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2016)

Why can't Oro be knocked out via blunt force trauma? Clearly that was a factor in his loss in the Sannin Showdown. He found it necessary to flee after taking one blow head on. Only difference here, is that Tsuande punches a lot harder.

She also has reverse shosen which was going to fuck him up via canon, and can be exploited after using her Raiton tech.

She can also boost Katsuyu and literally drown Oro in acid he already stated would kill him. There are ways to kill Oro.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Apr 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why can't Oro be knocked out via blunt force trauma? Clearly that was a factor in his loss in the Sannin Showdown. He found it necessary to flee after taking one blow head on. Only difference here, is that Tsuande punches a lot harder.
> 
> She also has reverse shosen which was going to fuck him up via canon, and can be exploited after using her Raiton tech.
> 
> She can also boost Katsuyu and literally drown Oro in acid he already stated would kill him. There are ways to kill Oro.



Yes, this is true, but some people refuse to believe this and try to invalidate these claims as much as possible.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Yes, this is true, but some people refuse to believe this and try to invalidate these claims as much as possible.


 Yes exactly. I might not be easy to pull off, but she DOES in fact have ways to kill him. Outlasting is just one of several.


----------



## Puppetry (Apr 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Lol I can't
> 
> I really would like to hear why you think Sakura is > to Tsuande when Hashirama compared younger Tsunade to Sakura and Adult Tsunade is much stronger with better feats?



What's infinitely more interesting is the response I made to this point and you glossed over. First, you contend that Hashirama was speaking of a much younger Tsunade. Ok, fine. But then you say also say that you agree with Godaime, and what did Godaime say?



Godaime Tsunade said:


> At any rate, Tsunade's *chakra control was visibly less impressive in Part 1 than it was in Part 2*. So her ability to blow up the ground is likely *a lot better.*



So, Godaime is saying Tsunade is a lot stronger now than she was when she was younger, something you reiterate in the very post I'm replying to. Ok, there's still nothing inconsistent with that. But then:



Likes boss said:


> I think they are relatively *about equal or so*, which means Tsuande can replicate her feats.



Wait, what? Child Tsunade is comparable to War Sakura, then she makes supposedly massive gains, and she's still only equal to War Arc Sakura?

I am not advocating this - I am merely connecting the dots and showing you the implications of your own argument. These are the conclusions you have already made, yet you don't see their inherently contradictory nature.



BringerOfChaos said:


> Would toddler Tsunade even have super strength?



Tsunade's abnormal strength is a direct result of her physical body, at least partially. I imagine she would have it even as a toddler.

I tend to dislike engaging in timeline discrepancy theories because they operate in between gaps of reasoning. Hashirama's last impression of Tsunade was as a mischievous child. I don't know why he would conjure up that image if he had a more current one. 



> Out of curiosity how big do you think the gap is?



Pretty significant. I don't think Tsunade would be capable of what Sakura did against the Juubi clone, nor do I think she would be able to break Kaguya's horn. In terms of other matches, it means that Sakura will generally be able to defeat an opponent in fewer punches than Tsunade would.



FlamingRain said:


> It was one of the "Konoha one hundred leaves collection" sections. IIRC it was on the Tsūtenkyaku page.
> 
> _Here's one link_.
> 
> Somebody posted a quote before in some thread.



Thank you for clarifying that.



Isaiah13000 said:


> What? Naruto didn't do anything. Shikamaru's condition was still poor and he looked like a human skeleton with some skin despite Sakura's attempts. Tsunade literally touches him and he is complete fine. Tsunade > Sakura in the healing department and therefore chakra control.



"Thank you, Naruto... with your chakra and your willpower... *you saved him!*" - Sakura

I didn't say he was completely healed; I said Naruto brought him from the brink of death. He went from nearly dying to sitting up, determined to fight on. Note that Sakura didn't heal this version of Shikamaru - we see her reaching towards him, but the next time we see her entire body he is being healed by Tsunade. 




> Your argument is confusing. You're arguing that Sakura is stronger *based on* Hashirama saying that she might be stronger than her when he is unaware of her full capabilities.



Allow me to clarify. I am not arguing the bold at all; I think the statement is intended to _suggest_ that Sakura is stronger than Tsunade but it does so in the weakest possible fashion - through an unreliable character. Overall, it's fairly useless as evidence of anything. It gets us talking about who's stronger, but it doesn't make the case for either party.

What I _am_ arguing is because statement ultimately means next to nothing, it cannot be used to fully support either party. It doesn't mean Sakura > Tsunade (that's something I believe feats prove). Likewise, it doesn't suggest that Sakura = Tsunade, as it is being used to support here. I'm posting because several posters are twisting Sakura's praise into Tsunade, and I find that astounding.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> I don't think so. Naruto had seen Sakura's super strength multiple times before, and was still freaked out by the level of destruction. As was Sasuke. It's unusual that Shizune wouldn't comment on it unless she had seen CES inflict destruction of that scale before.



That's has more to do with Naruto's demeanor and his view of Sakura than it does of who's stronger. He's seen Tsunade's super strength too and still was surprised - not just because of the feat itself, but because Sakura was capable of it. 

Shizune, on the other hand, commented on Sakura's seal because she knew it was a much more difficult ability to master.  One is S-ranked, the other is C-ranked. 




> Tsunade's chakra control increase was clear from the fact that she struggled to use a single Shosen no Jutsu in Part I to heal herself (she complains about the chakra consumption).



That was after Kabuto had worn her out and she was running on empty. That has more to do with exhaustion impeding her than straight up inability. 



> In Part II, she heals thousands at once through Katsuyu, and isn't remotely tired afterwards.



Right. Because in the Kabuto example, she hadn't released her seal and didn't have access to the immense amount of chakra she had there. 



> There's also the fact that she stores chakra up in her seal for many years, and has to use all of it up for a single usage of Sozou Saisei.



Her seal reformed, indicating that she didn't use up the entirety of her reserves. How much was left is unknown. I would wager a fair deal, as the remainders of at least a decade + 2.5-3 years allowed her to save hundreds if not thousands of lives when Pain attacked. 



> In Part II, she stores chakra for a few weeks, and then abuses her regeneration a dozen times.



Do you mean during the War Arc? If I recall, she used her chakra seal to heal mainly herself (and briefly preserve the other Gokage). That would require a lost less chakra than healing a village.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2016)

@Puppetry

Do you want me to break this down to you? Lol maybe it is me, I'm not being quite specific at the moment.

Okay, I honestly do not believe that Teenage Tsuande is comparable to War Arc Sakura. IMO Sakura is way stronger then that . The only reason I use Hashirama's statement as a rhetoric strategy is because people like to use that to make unsupported statements like Sakura > Tsuande in strength because Hashirama. Well that isn't true because:
A) He was referring to Teenage Tsunade
and
B) he wasn't even positive about his statement to begin with.

Using actual feat, then Tsuande would exceed Sakura. This also correlates with the fact that Sakura doesn't have better chakra control than Tsunade( see shikmaru scene ) and the fact that Tsuande is physically strong unlike Sakura. So on paper, Tsunade should be a good deal stronger.

Now the only reason I believe Sakura = Tsunade in striking strentgh is because Kishi pretty throws most of this out the window. I think its implied in the Neo Sannin that Tsuande has finally caught up to Tsuande is now a Kage Level shinobi like Sasuke and Naruto.  Though honestly she should be weaker.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why can't Oro be knocked out via blunt force trauma? Clearly that was a factor in his loss in the Sannin Showdown. He found it necessary to flee after taking one blow head on. Only difference here, is that Tsuande punches a lot harder.
> 
> She also has reverse shosen which was going to fuck him up via canon, and can be exploited after using her Raiton tech.
> 
> She can also boost Katsuyu and literally drown Oro in acid he already stated would kill him. There are ways to kill Oro.



he fled because tsunade was no longer hindered, he cannot beat tsunade when he has no access to his ninjutsu and has to worry about jiriaya, so he fled. the punch itself wasn't the reason but the situation was

it was not going to fuck him up, and can u prove whatever damage it reverse shosen did cant be negated and lol at by oral rebirth, same for her ration tech . How she stops oro from simply opening his mouth is beyond me

but fire which has also shown to melt rock which is all featless acid did, has basically be lol'd by skin shedding. how hypeless and featless acid is different I wonder

any DB entry for this reverse shosen?? not seeing it


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Her facial expression was like that because Kabuto went for her intercostal muscles when Tsunade was already breathing fast.
> 
> But yes, she would be fine if in Part 2 since she shaped up again _and_ began accumulating greater amounts of pre-molded Chakra in the Byakugō diamond.



Tsunade's been in much worse situations than having her intercostal muscles torn, and didn't show any great physical discomfort. I'm certain Shosen's chakra usage was at least a part of why she made that expression. _Maybe_ she complained about it because she was trying to conserve chakra, but that was never made clear, or even implied, and at face value it just looks like she's struggling to to accumulate the chakra. Though I can see why you might think that.

I think it's just a safer assumption that her chakra control was higher in Part II as a result of her shaping up again. She'd given up medical ninjutsu for 25ish years, and then suddenly threw herself back into Konoha and started performing operations and using her jutsu regularly. Her chakra control was bound to become more refined as a result. Her physical stamina improved too, but that's another kettle of fish.


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> he fled because tsunade was no longer hindered, he cannot beat tsunade when he has no access to his ninjutsu and has to worry about jiriaya, so he fled. the punch itself wasn't the reason but the situation was
> 
> it was not going to fuck him up, and can u prove whatever damage it reverse shosen did cant be negated and lol at by oral rebirth, same for her ration tech . How she stops oro from simply opening his mouth is beyond me
> 
> ...


Well I'm guessing Oro didn't want to flee the first time Tsuande overcame her phobia, decked him in his nostrils, healed her wounds and then summoned Katsuyu? Naw, he fleed because of blunt force trauama and Defeat.

Honesty you are tryna just ask for stuff that isnt on panel to strengthen your argument. But in reality it doesn't help your case. Tsunade was going to kill Oro with  reverse shosen. If it didn't kill him or do severe damage, then Tsuande never would have used it right beside Kabuto.

I think you are kinda over wanking Oral Rebirth. It has limitations and takes a shit ton of chakra. Oro even decided to shield himself KN4 BjuiiDama, so I'm guessing serious damage can overtake Oral Rebirth. Then there's the fact that its usually used at a distance and against characters that done have knowledge of it. If Tsuande obliterates Oro with a punch and he uses Oral Rebirth, nothing is stopping her from catching him in the middle of the act.

I don't need to provide feats for Katsuyu's acid. Oro stated it could kill him, therefore it is a threat to him even without being boosted.

Kabuto used reverse shosen to incapacitate several shinobi. Because it attacks the insides, it negates durability. Tsuande was also going use a variant to kill Oro.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 27, 2016)

Puppetry said:


> That's has more to do with Naruto's demeanor and his view of Sakura than it does of who's stronger. He's seen Tsunade's super strength too and still was surprised - not just because of the feat itself, but because Sakura was capable of it.




I guess we'll have to agree to disagree then. Hashirama also calls Sakura out on her power, having apparently seen it before (although that doesn't make a whole lot of sense, timeline wise..but I digress). Yet, he's also surprised. The God of Shinobi was literally impressed by her strength. And so was Naruto. And so was Sasuke. And yet Shizune wasn't. 



> Shizune, on the other hand, commented on Sakura's seal because she knew it was a much more difficult ability to master.  One is S-ranked, the other is C-ranked.



Even so, Sakura literally solo'd an entire field of enemies by herself using said C-Rank technique, which she should have been surprised about.. unless she'd seen the jutsu do something of that scale before. Or Kishimoto just got lazy and didn't want to show her reaction.. there's also that possibility  




> That was after Kabuto had worn her out and she was running on empty. That has more to do with exhaustion impeding her than straight up inability.



Physical chakra and spiritual chakra are two different things. In theory the chakra consumption for Shosen shouldn't have been an issue, even if she was breathless from running. 




> Right. Because in the Kabuto example, she hadn't released her seal and didn't have access to the immense amount of chakra she had there.



I was talking about when she was on the Hokage Rooftop giving her chakra to everyone. She hadn't released her Byakugou chakra in that instance.




> Her seal reformed, indicating that she didn't use up the entirety of her reserves. How much was left is unknown. I would wager a fair deal, as the remainders of at least a decade + 2.5-3 years allowed her to save hundreds if not thousands of lives when Pain attacked.



It reformed once she'd recovered enough chakra to reform it again. In Part II we see Tsunade using Sozou Saisei without her seal actually disappearing, the markings on her face just recede back into her seal. The fact that Tsunade started turning old afterwards shows that her reserves were low. She didn't have enough chakra in her Byakugou to even maintain her transformation. 



> Do you mean during the War Arc? If I recall, she used her chakra seal to heal mainly herself (and briefly preserve the other Gokage). That would require a lost less chakra than healing a village.



Regeneration uses up a lot of chakra regardless of who it's used on. It's more potent than regular healing jutsu, which is likely why Tsunade stores up a shit ton of chakra in forehead before she's able to use it. But she also used her seal's chakra to increase the size of Onoki's jinton to be about x100 its usual size, and we know jinton already uses up a lot of chakra because both Muu and Onoki are limited in how many times they can use it. Increasing its size that much requires monstrous levels of chakra.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Well I'm guessing Oro didn't want to flee the first time Tsuande overcame her phobia, decked him in his nostrils, healed her wounds and then summoned Katsuyu? Naw, he fleed because of blunt force trauama and Defeat..



ok she defeated an orochimaru who couldn't use ninjutsu, hence heal himself from the damage. big whoop

.





> Honesty you are tryna just ask for stuff that isnt on panel to strengthen your argument. But in reality it doesn't help your case. Tsunade was going to kill Oro with  reverse shosen. If it didn't kill him or do severe damage, then Tsuande never would have used it right beside Kabuto..



she was going to attack him with reverse shousen. if that didn't kill kiba why is it going to kill orochimaru? where is the scan of anyone inidicating orochimaru would have died from that? tsunade had killing intent that's all

.





> I think you are kinda over wanking Oral Rebirth. It has limitations and takes a shit ton of chakra. Oro even decided to shield himself KN4 BjuiiDama, so I'm guessing serious damage can overtake Oral Rebirth. Then there's the fact that its usually used at a distance and against characters that done have knowledge of it. If Tsuande obliterates Oro with a punch and he uses Oral Rebirth, nothing is stopping her from catching him in the middle of the act..



hardly overwank when its allowed the user to lol at techniques far more dangerous and harder to dodge than tsunade attacks. yes BD can turn oro to dust, tsunade punch could not possibly do that.

she cant catch oro in the middle of barfing himself out because sasuke who is a shit ton faster could not, and this was oro on his death bed

.





> I don't need to provide feats for Katsuyu's acid. Oro stated it could kill him, therefore it is a threat to him even without being boosted..



the translation says you can liquefy me, not kill me. What manga version did you read. though if we are going on the you can kill me statement. didn't sai make the same comment to orochimaru yet was not at risk at all since it was a clone talking. does that prove oro attack could have killed sai when that would have been impossible since sai wasn't even there to begin with?

.





> Kabuto used reverse shosen to incapacitate several shinobi. Because it attacks the insides, it negates durability. Tsuande was also going use a variant to kill Oro.



incapacitate!!! so how does several fodder level shinobi being incapacitated translate to orochimaru dying from it?


----------



## Veracity (Apr 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ok she defeated an orochimaru who couldn't use ninjutsu, hence heal himself from the damage. big whoop
> 
> .
> 
> ...


What can Oro do to heal himself from the damages? If Oro Rebirth requires seals then Tsuande would win this via Raiton Tech easily.

She was going to use a variant lol. A one with killing intent which was clearly intended to one shot Oro. Clearly it would have fucked his insides up, cause Tsuande has a lot of different ways to inflict heavy damage( CES or chakra scalpel) and yet she chose that approach. Whether or not it would take a lot of times doesn't matter either as she was to incapacitate and or corner Oro.

True. Let me get a scan for the sasuke feat

Were gonna need a Viz Translation, I'll ask Rocky or FlamingRain. But being liquefied is pretty mich the same shit. If oro is liquefied, he is dead. That's pretty clearly implied. And Scan for the Sai statement.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 28, 2016)

I wonder does being split in 2 damage ur insides ?? 
Didn't oro lol at that level of damage 
Does being stabbed with a giant sword damage ur insides 
Didn't oro kukuku at that level of damage without the need to regen ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fair enough flaming . I stand corrected
> 
> So she can block 1000 snake jutsu with her shockwave . Don't see how that kills oro who has survived stronger shockwaves
> BD, KN3 swing and so on



I didn't say she'd kill Orochimaru with her shockwave. I simply pointed out that other ninja Tsunade is clearly superior to in physical power had produced them.



> Think about it . She has to exhaust him to win



Tsunade has the stamina necessary to exhaust Orochimaru, so she could win against Orochimaru that way. A splash from a large enough globule of Zesshi Nensan ought to finish Orochimaru if Orochimaru's in a normal sized form, though, since the substance seemed to pool where it landed. Tsunade has a few ways to to produce an opening for Katsuyu to land the technique, so she _can_ pull out a win even before Orochimaru was exhausted.



> He only needs to be lucky and remove her head . The odds are in his favour , more so because poison isn't something that even ET can resist against , so tsunade certainly ain't laughing it off



I don't think decapitation would actually kill Tsunade if she has Sōzō Saisei already activated. Disorient Tsunade for a bit sure, but Orochimaru's not likely to manage to decapitate Tsunade anyway when she's the close-combat adept of the legendary three ninja. Orochimaru's interest in ninja skills was more Ninjutsu-centric. 

I'm also going to go ahead and disagree with the idea that even Edo Tensei doesn't resist poison, because we simply saw that poison momentarily affected an Edo Tensei, not that poison circumvented Edo Tensei regeneration. There was still a large gash in Hanzō's side, suggesting that Edo Tensei hadn't done anything at that point. Mifune had instructed the others in the squad to get ready, though- why? Because Hanzō would have soon recovered when Edo Tensei did. Hanzō simply intended to provide the ninja alliance with an opening. Edo Tensei also regenerate from the outside in, as opposed to the inside out by activating all proteins in the body like Tsunade does. Sōzō Saisei might handle internal effects more swiftly as a result.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 28, 2016)

Sorry so she looses her head and all he will be is disoriented
?? 
On what basis exactly ?
She doesn't have the feats to go with such a statement
Esp when after she claimed she couldn't be killed in battle orochimaru thought suffocating her could work

She looses her head she needs Katsuyu who has zero speed feats to reattach it

I think it's unfair to assume she can regrow a head or not die from it

While casually claiming skin shedding won't work against any and all amount of acid considering it has allowed manda to avoid a technique despite being completely covered by it


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 28, 2016)

Mainly unfair flaming because unlike this fan fic not dying to head loss or regrowing s head which is baseless 

Skin shedding surviving techniques that completely covered the individual actually has feats to back it up


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sorry so she looses her head and all he will be is disoriented
> ??
> On what basis exactly ?
> She doesn't have the feats to go with such a statement



She doesn't need them. Senju and Uzumaki have incredible physical energies and vitality that result in their bodies taking far longer to succumb to injuries than a normal body even by the standards of the Narutoverse. Developments in the war arc suggest that applies across the board, even regarding their heads- we saw that Edo Tensei could still be "killed" as they were in life prior to Edo Tensei regeneration starting, and then we saw one of Tsunade's family members continue using Jutsu when Jūbito shaved off half of that ninja's torso and head.

Sōzō Saisei, as it was explained, should be capable of regenerating any part of Tsunade's body, and it was actually stated to be capable of regenerating any part of Tsunade's body.

2+2=4



> Esp when after she claimed she couldn't be killed in battle orochimaru thought suffocating her could work



It didn't, though. In the anime Orochimaru suggested it would only work if Tsunade's regeneration was outpaced, not that she wouldn't be able to regenerate.



> While casually claiming skin shedding won't work against any amount of acid considering it has allowed manda to avoid a technique despite being completely covered by it



Manda molted _prior to_ being hit with Gamayu Endan, and left the molted part in place in order to distract Jiraiya and Gamabunta. Manda also went underground, if Manda had simply leapt up through the flame Manda would have been lit by the Jutsu.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 28, 2016)

any proof manda used the technique before the flames covered him ? What's ur evidence ? oral rebirth is never used before the damage occurs 
Guess who else can use doton like manda ?

So your logic is she is senju therefore being beheaded wouldn't kill her and only disorient her 
Not very logical if you ask me 

Like you said if ET whose healing easily surpasses tsunade can be incapacitated long enough after suffering damage that would otherwise kill them the same would be true for tsunade 

Assuming she even remotely stands a chance of surviving such she will be very open for the next attack and so on 

Not like manda can't stall Katsuyu long enough for orochimaru to land the next blow and the next when he removes her head 

Karin despite being uzumaki still went to the ground when her chest go ran through


----------



## Thunder (Apr 28, 2016)

Orochimaru did say _Katsuyu could kill him with her acid_. Which makes sense because Orochimaru can't come back without a body. Zesshi Nensan did _this_ to a giant rock so I don't see Orochimaru surviving a direct attack unless he has something prepared.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Veracity (Apr 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I wonder does being split in 2 damage ur insides ??
> Didn't oro lol at that level of damage
> Does being stabbed with a giant sword damage ur insides
> Didn't oro kukuku at that level of damage without the need to regen ?



Considering its a Shosen it probably effects his chakra, damages him and incapacitates him. Whatever it was, Tsuande found it likely to kill him, and she had enough knowledge on her former partner to know his abilities.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 28, 2016)

She didn't know her partner had achieved the immortality jutsu of taking over people bodies 
Since hiruzen was surprised by it 
I assume tsunade has no knowledge 
Hence she assumed that would kill someone limited in their ability to regenerate and near immortal


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 28, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> any proof manda used the technique before the flames covered him ? What's ur evidence ? oral rebirth is never used before the damage occurs
> Guess who else can use doton like manda ?



1.) "Oral Rebirth" _has_ been used before the damage occured.
2.) Manda did not use "Oral Rebirth"
3.) Manda did not use Doton either.
4.) The evidence would be that the molt was still sitting up when Jiraiya saw it, instead of posing like an ostrich, since Manda went underground to sneak up on Gamabunta.



> So your logic is she is senju therefore being beheaded wouldn't kill her and only disorient her
> Not very logical if you ask me



I didn't ask you, _you_ asked _me_ what basis I was using for my opinion.

Sōzō Saisei can regenerate all of Tsunade's parts, so if an attack did not kill Tsunade outright she would simply regenerate from it so long as she had sufficient Chakra. Would decapitation achieve that? Well, since Tsunade has _repeatedly _demonstrated that the extremely high physical energies and life force of the Senju and Uzumaki clans runs strongly in her, we've seen another Uzumaki survive what would have normally been instantaneous game over for a ninja yet still use Jutsu and we've seen another Senju survive what would have normally been an immediate game over for a ninja yet still use Jutsu I'd say no it wouldn't kill Tsunade outright, and subsequently that Tsunade would bounce back as she would from other injuries since "any/all organs and parts" would include Tsunade's head. Conventional injuries do not cut it when Sōzō Saisei is active- that is why a team of five blade-wielding Susano'o who had resolved to kill Tsunade first of the Kage, were shown going for kill-shots against the other Kage, and had acquired knowledge on Sōzō Saisei ended up essentially having to play a stamina game with Tsunade.

I have no reason to think that Orochimaru could beat Tsunade with the narrower, singular Kusanagi.



> Like you said if ET whose healing easily surpasses tsunade can be incapacitated long enough after suffering damage that would otherwise kill them the same would be true for tsunade



You need to reread my post then, Icegaze.



> Not like manda can't stall Katsuyu long enough for orochimaru to land the next blow and the next when he removes her head



It can't, because Katsuyu can split while Manda cannot.



> Karin despite being uzumaki still went to the ground when her chest go ran through



And yet when multiple branches were plunged through Karin's torso Karin was still fine.

The Karin you're talking about was a Karin who had already used a technique on Sasuke that she wasn't able to use more than once a day, which probably had a lot to do with what happened there.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2016)

1) scan of oral rebirth being used before damage . This should be fun , should be impossible to find . 
2) DB2 implies the skin shedding is more or less oral rebirth as that's the only shedding jutsu we know 
3) manda went underground . Oro can do the same with doton , though if manda can dig without using doton that fine 
4) so basically manda did what Sasuke did to Amaterasu . Can't be more similar . Hint after the jutsu was used on him 

The rest is just  so I'll leave u to it


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> 1) scan of oral rebirth being used before damage . This should be fun , should be impossible to find .



See Orochimaru vs. Kn4, Kabuto vs. Turtle Island squad or Kabuto vs Uchiha bros.



> 2) DB2 implies the skin shedding is more or less oral rebirth as that's the only shedding jutsu we know



What are you referring to about databook 2?



> 3) manda went underground . Oro can do the same with doton , though if manda can dig without using doton that fine



If Katsuyu sprayed Orochimaru with Zesshi Nensan Zesshi Nensan would have pooled on the ground. Katsuyu can produce enough of the stuff that Orochimaru could wind up basically sitting in it, in which case Orochimaru would barf out another Orochimaru right into more acid. That's if the acid didn't already liquefy Orochimaru on the spot, because it immediately ate up a large chunk of a formation of solid rock on the field and Orochimaru's body is organic- organic compounds tend to react to that sort of stuff more easily compared to stone.



> 4) so basically manda did what Sasuke did to Amaterasu . Can't be more similar . Hint after the jutsu was used on him



No, if Manda had done that the molt would have been face against the floor, but it wasn't.  Implying Manda molted and _then_ went underground before Gamayu Endan landed.



> The rest is just  so I'll leave u to it


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2016)

What about oro Vs Kn4
? 
What Scan did he use oral rebirth before damage ?
U mean when his snake got melted and he opted to spit himself out 
Does that ignore the chapter just before where his hand gets ripped off then he barfs himself out ? Selective memory much 

Referring to manda snake skin shedding its implied to be w jutsu . The only jutsu we know which sheds skin is oral rebirth 

And sasori fodder katon melted rock as quickly and as easily as Katsuyu acid 
. Yet Jiriaya katon combo was significantly stronger and snake shedding worked

Amaterasu metled a fire toad stomach yet again skin shedding worked. Now unless ur logic is lol acid >>Amaterasu 

No reason shedding won't work 

Manda like Sasuke or orochimaru can come out of his own stomach 

If Sasuke could basically molt out of his own stomach why can't manda ?


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What about oro Vs Kn4
> ?
> What Scan did he use oral rebirth before damage ?
> U mean when his snake got melted and he opted to spit himself out



Yep.



> Does that ignore the chapter just before where his hand gets ripped off then he barfs himself out ? Selective memory much



Nope. Let's go over the sequence of events again:

I said



FlamingRain said:


> 1.) "Oral Rebirth" _has_ been used before the damage occured.



after you said



Icegaze said:


> oral rebirth is never used before the damage occurs



I proved the claim that oral rebirth is never used before the damage occurs wrong, I did not ever say that oral rebirth was always used before damage occurred or that it could only be used before damage occurred. Don't try to accuse me of selective memory unless you can half remember the conversation.



> Referring to manda snake skin shedding its implied to be w jutsu . The only jutsu we know which sheds skin is oral rebirth



Where did it say that? Your conclusion doesn't follow from your premise as it sounds.



> And sasori fodder katon melted rock as quickly and as easily as Katsuyu acid



No it didn't. Katsuyu's acid ate that rock in an instant, and a much larger portion of rock than the boulders Sasori sustained a flamethrower against yet only barely melted. Acid is not analogous to flame anyway.



> Yet Jiriaya katon combo was significantly stronger and snake shedding worked



Irrelevant.



> Amaterasu metled a fire toad stomach yet again skin shedding worked.



Also irrelevant.



> No reason shedding won't work



Except the ones I've already highlighted.



> If Sasuke could basically molt out of his own stomach why can't manda ?



Because that is not how snakes molt.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2016)

Ok flaming
Can't get anywhere in this argument 
But sure featless acid which also coincidently lacks hype kills orochimaru you know one of the most ridiculously difficult characters to kill 

You know ur biased when Amaterasu fails to skin shedding yet acid is to succeed 

When we know Amaterasu in every possible way is superior to the acid 

Certainly has better hype and feats to boot


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2016)

The acid has the hype of being able to kill Orochimaru from Orochimaru himself.


Amaterasu is not an analogous type of damage to Zesshi Nensan, so it wouldn't matter.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2016)

How do snakes molt in a manga btw
Any evidence from kishi himself or are you making convenient assumptions 

Yes Amaterasu damage is significantly greater 

Other translations say liquefy not kill 

What does the VIZ say need another party to confirm


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How do snakes molt in a manga btw
> Any evidence from kishi himself or are you making convenient assumptions



In real life they molt through their head or mouth. What evidence from Kishi suggests that Manda molts differently?



> Yes Amaterasu damage is significantly greater



Amaterasu is a different _type_ of damage.



> Other translations say liquefy not kill
> 
> What does the VIZ say need another party to confirm



If Orochimaru was liquefied that would mean there was nothing for Orochimaru to sprout another Orochimaru from. That puddle wouldn't even be Orochimaru anymore.


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 29, 2016)

So this Molting through their mouth can you show me a vid 
Also Molting through their skin in what direction do they go . Quite curious 

A different type of significantly different damage . I.e one is more likely to kill than the other same way FRS is different damage but we surely know which one has higher killing capacity 

But burnt in half left enough to sprout from 

Is the implication that he comes in contact with acid and turns to nothing instantly 

This would be surprising considering all we got to go on is a rock 

Even Genin are more durable than rock


----------



## FlamingRain (Apr 29, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> So this Molting through their mouth can you show me a vid
> Also Molting through their skin in what direction do they go . Quite curious


----------



## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2016)

@FlamingRain 
I concede on the Molting 
You see that's you making a point that isn't biased 
I am proud of you 

Now how does melting rock which is less durable than a Genin imply it immediately melts through  anyone


----------



## FlamingRain (May 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @FlamingRain
> I concede on the Molting
> You see that's you making a point that isn't biased
> I am proud of you
> ...



How does Orochimaru admitting Katsuyu could kill him with its acid not imply it?

Durability differences are most significant when the types of damage in question are similar. Those ninja that are more durable than rock are more durable in the sense that they can withstand greater impacts without breaking apart, but that is irrelevant to how they would fare if exposed to acid. Acids "liquefy" through various chemical reactions with the compounds of other structures, and the types of chemical structures that make up organic bodies are especially prone to those reactions compared to something like a giant rock. It's the same concept as why you can't dip your fingers into acids that can be stored in glasses even though you can slam your hand and that glass against a wall with your hand remaining in one piece while the glass shattered to bits, for example.

As demonstrated in Part 1 Katsuyu's acid works scary-fast, and in addition to that also pools up where it lands. That rock Katsuyu melted was almost as thick as Manda's tail, which is dozens of times the size of Orochimaru. So if a large enough portion of acid were to land Orochimaru should be toast, as was already admitted by that Sannin in the manga.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Icegaze (May 1, 2016)

Ok flaming oro admitting it would kill him and us taking his word for it could as well imply it's unavoidable to him as well

So you might as well claim on the basis of what he said he can neither avoid or defend against it

Since he never set conditions on when it would kill him

Us believing that however would be flat out stupid

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## FlamingRain (May 1, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Ok flaming oro admitting it would kill him and us taking his word for it could as well imply it's unavoidable to him as well
> 
> Since he never set conditions on when it would kill him



No. It's called context. Orochimaru proposed a deal with Katsuyu- the condition was that if Orochimaru at any point looked suspicious Orochimaru would give Katsuyu a free hit with her acid. There's no suggestion that Zesshi Nensan would have been unavoidable for Orochimaru.



> Us believing that however would be flat out stupid



For reasons that don't apply to the matter of Zesshi Nensan vs. Orochimaru's body.


----------

