# Hype Comparison: Itachi vs Minato



## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Please remember to use spoiler tags if your image stretches the page.

Let's get this started, Minato fans. Here's my hand:

*Best Strategist Hype:*



*Best Tactician Hype:*



*Best Sensing Hype:*



*Best Power Hype:*



*Benchmark Hype:*



*Best Confidence Hype:*



*Best Protector Hype:*



*Batman Prep Hype:*



*Constantly Amazing Hype:*



*More Than Power Hype:*



*Best Fundamental Skill Hype:*



*Best Weapon Hype:*



*Best Genjutsu Hype:*



*Best Prodigy Hype:*



*Best Shinobi Hype:*



*Perfect Ninja Hype:*



*Obito Won't Even Try Hype:*

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]


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## αce (Jun 27, 2015)

Honestly, the best hype for Itachi comes from part one. Orochimaru had two edo tensei hokages and didnt even hesitate to go after the third. But the option of doing that wasn't even there if he wanted to go after Itachi because the idea of capturing him was "just a dream". Then, after he's disabled, he has no issue trying to fight Jiraiya

Think about that for a second

>Disabled
NP I'll fight Jiraiya

>Both hands and edo tensei
I'm not gonna even try to touch Itachi




I'll let others decide if Minato or Itachi had more hype but I always found that hilarious.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

αce said:


> Honestly, the best hype for Itachi comes from part one. Orochimaru had two edo tensei hokages and didnt even hesitate to go after the third. But the option of doing that wasn't even there if he wanted to go after Itachi because the idea of capturing him was "just a dream". Then, after he's disabled, he has no issue trying to fight Jiraiya
> 
> Think about that for a second
> 
> ...




Orochimaru's impossible dream about Itachi was the actual taking the body part, Orochimaru wasn't referring to beating Itachi being impossible, as thats clearly not true, unless you think Orochimaru with all the possible Edo tensei's would all lose to Itachi.

When Orochimaru tries to take over somebodies body its made clear Uchiha like Sasuke and Itachi are basically immune to it, because they can put Orochimaru in a genjutsu and break the body taking process, Thats what made the dream impossible, Killing Itachi was never Orochimaru's goal lol, he could care less, Its actually physically impossible for him to steal Itachi's body even if he beat Itachi to an inch of his life.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

Before I post something up, I have to say that I'd be ok with putting Minato ahead slightly before the war arc. But not anymore. I think war arc increased Itachi's status, and dimished Minato's.
Minato had more GOAT aura before he had barely any panel time. But sadly he seemed like just another powerful guy during the war arc.

I also have to point out one other thing. In the beginning of the series, both Sasuke and Naruto expressed that they wanted to achieve certain goals. Sasuke had to "kill a certain man" and to be able to do that, he had to become stronger than him.
Naruto wanted to surpass the previous Hokage. Although when he put it out there, we didn't know mucha bout Hashirama and Tobirama(and it was pointed out that Minato was stronger than Hiruzen), and the only Hokage that had a direct relation to Naruto was Minato, being likened to him and all.
So @ the beginning, Sasuke had to surpass Itachi and Naruto had to surpass Minato to achieve their goals. 

Taking Naruto and Sasuke's equal(more or less through out the whole manga) standing into consideration, it wouldn't make much sense to place Itachi and Minato far off from each other in terms of hype, power and portrayal.

Here is  one of my all time favorite Itachi hypes : 



edit : 

And also this : 





GilgameshXFate said:


> Orochimaru's impossible dream about Itachi was the actual taking the body part,



Thats fanfiction.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

Minato solos. 

Do I have to elaborate?
Because I think it's fairly obvious.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 



*Kakashi: "Its because I truly believe...That you're the only shinobi that can surpass the fourth Hokage."
*

*Kishi:"That unrivalled strength that carefree smile.."*

*Jiraiya:"Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind."
*

*Jiraiya: "Oh, No, Minato was a rare genius. You don't see the likes of him very often. He was kind and gentle, yet fierce of full of grit. Became the fourth Hokage in the blink of an eye"
*

*Shinobi:"It...can't...be...you're...the...'Konoha's Yellow Flash'?! Our Hidden Rock Village...We were taught by our commanders to flee on sight if we saw that person...Now I know what they meant..."
*

*A:"He was a great man...one I thought would never be surpassed".
*

*Tobi:"You deserve the title of fourth Hokage...managing to wound me and wrest the fox from my control in one move".
*


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you forgot Hago
*Spoiler*: __ 








Madara


and Minato > itachi


and itachi


and many other shit.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> unless you think Orochimaru with all the possible Edo tensei's would all lose to Itachi.



What? Lol, you should've kept reading and seen the next panel;



Heck, even back then, this sole admission made Itachi's supposed fear of Jiraiya sound ridiculous. Its good that now we know Itachi's reasons.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Before I post something up, I have to say that I'd be ok with putting Minato ahead slightly before the war arc. But not anymore. I think war arc increased Itachi's status, and dimished Minato's.
> Minato had more GOAT aura before he had barely any panel time. But sadly he seemed like just another powerful guy during the war arc.
> 
> I also have to point out one other thing. In the beginning of the series, both Sasuke and Naruto expressed that they wanted to achieve certain goals. Sasuke had to "kill a certain man" and to be able to do that, he had to become stronger than him.
> ...







I hate how people bring up that Hashirama level BS First because Hashirama didnt even know who Itachi WAS, so Strength wise he wouldn't know anything And that hype only really takes into the fact Itachi's ability to BE a shinobi, you know the ruthless and always completing the mission type. Plus this would put Itachi above VOTE Madara, and we know for a fact thats false, as Itachi admitted to needing EMS before he could fight Madara. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats fanfiction.



So Itachi > Orochimaru and Edo Tensei Army? :


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Please remember to use spoiler tags if your image stretches the page.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

> I hate how people bring up that Hashirama level BS First because Hashirama didnt even know who Itachi WAS, so Strength wise he wouldn't know anything And that hype only really takes into the fact Itachi's ability to BE a shinobi, you know the ruthless and always completing the mission type.



That's always give me a chuckle. 
It's like when they were using that nonsense of Hashirama saying "this guy is stronger than me"
to prove their fantasies that Hashirama was the strongest, until Gai wrecked their world.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> What? Lol, you should've kept reading and seen the next panel;
> 
> 
> 
> Heck, even back then, this sole admission made Itachi's supposed fear of Jiraiya sound ridiculous. Its good that now we know Itachi's reasons.



Pffff, that's after he lost his arms.

Itachi's admission that he is inferior to Jiraiya makes Oro's statement sounds ridiculous.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I hate how people bring up that Hashirama level BS First because Hashirama didnt even know who Itachi WAS, so Strength wise he wouldn't know anything And that hype only really takes into the fact Itachi's ability to BE a shinobi, you know the ruthless and always completing the mission type. Plus this would put Itachi above VOTE Madara, and we know for a fact thats false, as Itachi admitted to needing EMS before he could fight Madara.


What did I bring up really ? I just posted a manga scan.
I know that Hashirama was talking about Itachi's capability as a shinobi, not his power.




> So Itachi > Orochimaru and Edo Tensei Army? :



Orochimaru himself said it, and from what I've seen, the ET army Hiruzen kept up with would get decimated by Itachi under 10 seconds.



Hussain said:


> *Pffff, that's after he lost his arms.*
> 
> Itachi's admission that he is inferior to Jiraiya makes Oro's statement sounds ridiculous.



No.
Orochimaru went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi. He went after Sasuke before he lost his arms


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Itachi's admission that he is inferior to Jiraiya makes Oro's statement sounds ridiculous.



Given Kabuto said Itachi lied all his life, and said this about his past: 



It's unlikely he truly believed anybody, let alone Jiraiya, could kill him.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

@Grimmjowsensei

Yes, but that statement in the panel he posted is about Oro after losing his arms. When Oro fought Itachi at first that was 7 years from the War Arc time, and we don't know if he had his ET back then.

Other than that, you do know that I don't deny Itachi being stronger than Oro, right? 

@Strategoob

itachi being a lier does not fly my dear. 
after his conversation with Kisame, he did not deny that he can fight on par with Jiraiya.
It's just not as ridiculous as itachi fans want to believe. They are on the same level with Jiraiya being
the superior shinobi



> It's unlikely he truly believed anybody, let alone Jiraiya, could kill him.



That just proves that Jiraiya could be much stronger than itachi if anything because
even tho itachi was overrating the fuck out of himself, he still did not believe he can take
on Jiraiya without injuring himself badly. 

now, take that arrogance of him out, and the odds are Jiraiya is fairly ahead of him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> Yes, but that statement in the panel he posted is about Oro after losing his arms. When Oro fought Itachi at first that was 7 years from the War Arc time, and we don't know if he had his ET back then.
> 
> Other than that, you do know that I don't deny Itachi being stronger than Oro, right?



When Orochimaru said "now" he wasn't specifically refering to his weakened state.
We know that he went after Sasuke because he couldn't handle Itachi, which happened before he lost his arms. In other words, it is clear that getting Itachi was impossible even before he lost his arms.

edit : 


Hussain said:


> @Strategoob
> 
> itachi being a lier does not fly my dear.
> after his conversation with Kisame, he did not deny that he can fight on par with Jiraiya.
> ...



Itachi believed he was unstoppable. That includes Jiraiya too.
Strat has a point actually.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

What do you mean _actually_.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Given Kabuto said Itachi lied all his life, and said this about his past:
> 
> 
> 
> It's unlikely he truly believed anybody, let alone Jiraiya, could kill him.





Jiraiya wasn't afraid of fighting Itachi and Kisame at the same time, But thought Minato was unsurpassable. 

So something doesn't add up if Jiraiya was so confident of facing Itachi and Kisame even in base, Yet Orochimaru didn't want to Fight Itachi even with full ET and everything prepped. Either Orochimaru is grossly overating Itachi, or Jiraiya has the biggest Ego out of anyone in the series. if its the latter Then Jiraiya admitting inferiority to Minato is an even bigger achievement then i though.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It's just not as ridiculous as itachi fans want to believe. They are on the same level with Jiraiya being the superior shinobi



Let's piece together some key information here:


Kabuto said Itachi was a masterful liar throughout his life
Itachi said that during his life he considered himself invincible
Orochimaru with arms and Edo Tensei wouldn't go near Itachi
Orochimaru without arms and drugged wasn't worried about Jiraiya



GilgameshXFate said:


> So something doesn't add up if Jiraiya was so confident of facing Itachi and Kisame even in base





Jiraiya had no idea what he was up against, in any capacity.

His overconfidence against Itachi mirrored that of Orochimaru years prior.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Itachi flat out admitted he couldn't defeat Base Jiraiya. Itachi's opinion > yours. 

Minato has far greater hype. At nine he defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha under the legendary Prime Hiruzen. Not even Prime Hiruzen could capture them, only Minato. 

Moreover, Minato had a flee on sight order from the Kumo and Rock. Both those villages  believed that Minato could individually solo their entire nation in the blink of an eye.


This is why I hate Minato and love Itachi. Minato is just the superior being while my fave Itachi was a constant failure at life.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

@Grimmjowsensei

- For the first part, as I said, I don't deny that Itachi was stronger than Oro. Even with part 1 ET, chances are itachi would win anyway. 

- No, that does not include Jiraiya. Itachi knew about Jiraiya's power, and he did not say "Oh my! There is no way I would stand a chance" to say he was trying to fool Kisame or something.

Kisame also knows Jiraiya's power, and he said that their level is too far apart. However, he believed itachi can fight on par with him, to which itachi *agreed*, but he said they will hurt each other badly. 

If itachi was trying to lie or something, he would have said "no, I can't take him on under any circumstances ever"
or something along those lines. 

Now, we know that itachi was overrating himself quite a bit, so chances are Jiraiya would have the edge.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Let's piece together some key information here:
> 
> 
> Kabuto said Itachi was a masterful liar throughout his life
> ...



and itachi said Kabuto is an even bigger liar. How do we know that Kabuto was not lying about itachi being a liar? 

as for the last point, Jiraiya was unable to use his jutsu either.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Itachi flat out admitted he couldn't defeat Base Jiraiya. Itachi's opinion > yours.
> 
> Minato has far greater hype. At nine he defeated the Elite Kumo Ninja Task Force that infiltrated the Konoha under the legendary Prime Hiruzen. *Not even Prime Hiruzen could capture them, only kid Minato.*
> 
> ...



Right on, bro.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> @Grimmjowsensei
> 
> - For the first part, as I said, I don't deny that Itachi was stronger than Oro. Even with part 1 ET, chances are itachi would win anyway.
> 
> ...



It actually makes perfect sense. 
If Itachi exaggerated, then Kisame wouldn't buy it, considering Kisame had a clear idea about both of their power(to some extend at least). He knew Jiraiya was more powerful than him, and he also knew Itachi was powerful enough to stay and fight, thats why he questioned Itachi's retreat.

Kisame surely didn't know the whole story though, because he thought the Legendary Sannin reputation made them look like nothing(he could be right on his part), and Itachi didn't correct him on that. Does that make any sense to you, knowing that Itachi actually took on a legendary sannin and made him run with his tail between legs with a smug look on his face ? 

We both know it doesn't. 
Itachi was just being humble, and he wasn't interested in fighting Jiraiya, so he let Kisame believe that Jiraiya was a tough opponent to face, which would later on allow Itachi to disengage easily.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

@Strategoob



Don't you think it would be fair to discredit all of Kabuto's hype to 
1- itachi
2- Hashirama
3- Hiruzen

...etc

just like how you try to discredit the others' based on "itachi is a liar" ??


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> as for the last point, Jiraiya was unable to use his jutsu either.



Even before Orochimaru knew that, he was unconcerned.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Let's piece together some key information here:
> 
> 
> Kabuto said Itachi was a masterful liar throughout his life
> ...



Yet even after that confrontation Jiraiya still thought Minato couldn't be surpassed I guess Amaterasu wasn't enough to impress Jiraiya. 

How Ei's statement of Minato couldn't be surpassed, this was after Ei saw Ms Sasuke who literally had everything Itachi had except for Totsuka and Yata. Ei shit himself remembering how bad Minato stomped him in the past, Yet a Itachi comparable MS Sasuke got his shit pushed in by Ei even with backup.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> How Ei's statement of Minato couldn't be surpassed, this was after Ei saw Ms Sasuke who literally had everything Itachi had except for Totsuka and Yata.



Ninja are more than a list of jutsu. Sasuke fought foolishly.

Plus Sasuke only had rib-cage Susano'o against A, by the way.

(And that Sasuke also injured A more than Minato ever did.)



Hussain said:


> Don't you think it would be fair to discredit all of Kabuto's hype to
> 1- itachi
> 2- Hashirama
> 3- Hiruzen
> just like how you try to discredit the others' based on "itachi is a liar" ??



Do you think Kabuto had a reason for lying in those circumstances?

Are those claims as silly as Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + More Backup?

Or do you deny that Itachi had a reason to mislead Kisame?

And the viz doesn't attribute the hype to Jiraiya, by the way.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Ninja are more than a list of jutsu. Sasuke fought foolishly.
> 
> Plus Sasuke only had rib-cage Susano'o against A, by the way.
> 
> (And that Sasuke also injured A more than Minato ever did.)




I don't think Sasuke necessarily fought any more foolish then he normally does, it more of not knowing about Ei's absurd speed advantage that screwed him over more then anything else. Also about that list of jutsu didn't you spend the last thread telling me about are the jutsu Itachi invented and was creative with, I guess that list of jutsu is worthless 

Also btw it was pretty heavily implied Minato could kill both A and B anytime he wanted, he was just taking it easy on them.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

No, I was pointing out that Minato is no more creative than Itachi.

Nor does a ninja being more than a list of jutsu make jutsu worthless.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2015)

> Do you think Kabuto had a reason for lying in those circumstances?
> 
> Are those claims as silly as Jiraiya > Itachi + Kisame + More Backup?
> 
> ...



Why does this matter? 
you think itachi's statement is silly because he is your favourite. As such you only care about "he is a liar" 

I don't see how is that different than Kabuto being a bigger liar.

It could even be said that Kabuto is a shinobi from konoha, and itachi is as such, so Kabuto had no reason
to try to hurt itachi. We know that Kabuto saved Sasuke to fight in the war. 

you see how you, itachi's fans, manipulate things some times?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Right on, bro.



Concession accepted. The fact is if Prime Hiruzen could have captured them, he would have. You don't let your prize possession walk out your village to the opposition. Without the Kyuubi, the Konoha is destroyed by the Kumo.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Concession accepted. The fact is if Prime Hiruzen could have captured them, he would have. You don't let your prize possession walk out your village to the opposition. Without the Kyuubi, the Konoha is destroyed by the Kumo.



I want to add, that even fighting together, the 3 Sannin during the 3rd great Shinobi world war didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them. But Minato did


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I want to add, that even fighting together, the 3 Sannin during the 3rd great Shinobi world war didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them. But Minato did


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I want to add, that even fighting together, the 3 Sannin during the 3rd great Shinobi world war didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them. But Minato did



The Sannin weren't as powerful back then. They were probably elite Jounin at that point.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> The Sannin weren't as powerful back then. They were probably elite Jounin at that point.



This is true but thier are other shinbobi who were legendary yet weren't given a Flee on sight order like.

Sakumo Hatake- A man said to have SURPASSED the Sannin together, yet Sunagakure didn't place a flee on sight order

Hanzo- The guy that GAVE the Sannin their name, and beat them with looking at the no scratches on his body apparently no to little difficult, No Flee on Sight issued here.

Prime Hiruzen- The guy that taught the Sannin everything they knew, and was taught by the Senju Bros, One of the strongest Ninja ever, still Didn't get a Flee on Sight order, in fact Danzo the guy that passed over Itachi for Shisui was a rival for Prime Hiruzen, and still no Flee on Sight issued.

In fact I don't think Hashirama ever got a Flee on Sight issued to him either.


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## Veracity (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> This is true but thier are other shinbobi who were legendary yet weren't given a Flee on sight order like.
> 
> Sakumo Hatake- A man said to have SURPASSED the Sannin together, yet Sunagakure didn't place a flee on sight order
> 
> ...



I don't think you're looking at the circumstances tbh.

Does the flee on sight command mean that Base Minato is > to Hashirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> In fact I don't think Hashirama ever got a Flee on Sight issued to him either.



So thats enough to conclude that flee on sight order is worthless as shit, considering Hashirama is fuckloads stronger than Minato to the extend that it is impossible to compare both.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I want to add, that even fighting together, the 3 Sannin during the 3rd great Shinobi world war didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them. But Minato did.



The entire Uchiha clan had a flee on sight order on them.

Most elite ninja likely had flee on sight orders given to fodder.

And obviously, non-fodder didn't have those orders (A and Bee.)



Grimmjowsensei said:


> So thats enough to conclude that flee on sight order is worthless as shit, considering Hashirama is fuckloads stronger than Minato to the extend that it is impossible to compare both.



Or this.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

There is a reason Hashirama wasn't given one. Notice how he was beat during a war. 

And the Uchiha had a flee on fight order??? Since when? I have been the biggest advocate of the Uchiha on this forum since I was 12 and haven't come up with half the crap some of you guys come up with .


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> And the Uchiha had a flee on fight order? Since when?


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## Bookworm (Jun 27, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> There is a reason Hashirama wasn't given one. Notice how he was beat during a war.
> 
> And the Uchiha had a flee on fight order??? Since when? I have been the biggest advocate of the Uchiha on this forum since I was 12 and haven't come up with half the crap some of you guys come up with .


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So thats enough to conclude that flee on sight order is worthless as shit, considering Hashirama is fuckloads stronger than Minato to the extend that it is impossible to compare both.



I do agree Hashirama is a good deal stronger then Minato, but I don't think hes so strong as you imply that he would immediately stomp his ass or anything and if Minato started in SM he might even be able to compete with Hashirama, but I digress. To be fair I was just being cheeky at the end there, Hashirama was so strong the only one that actually fought him was Madara so he did have a sort of unofficial flee on sight command, which i guess is better then an official one as even without an official declaration people were so scared of Hashirama nobody dared fighting him.



Strategoob said:


> The entire Uchiha clan had a flee on sight order on them.
> 
> Most elite ninja likely had flee on sight orders given to fodder.
> 
> ...



The Uchiha advice was just that advice, because obviously most people can't just automatically break Genjutsu by themselves, but actual badasses like Minato could fight Uchiha 1 v 1 and not give a darn about that rule.


I don't know if the A+B combo really helps your case, being that they didn't follow the flee on sight order and almost died in less then 5 minutes against Minato, luckily for them he outright spared them, but thats what you get for not following the rules.


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## Bookworm (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I do agree Hashirama is a good deal stronger then Minato, but I don't think hes so strong as you imply that he would immediately stomp his ass or anything and if Minato started in SM he might even be able to compete with Hashirama, but I digress. To be fair I was just being cheeky at the end there, Hashirama was so strong the only one that actually fought him was Madara so he did have a sort of unofficial flee on sight command, which i guess is better then an official one as even without an official declaration people were so scared of Hashirama nobody dared fighting him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




That was their first time fighting him, that why Minato got as far as he did.  Bee got tagged when he wasn't even really fighting he was saving his brother.  Also the terrain favored Minato.


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## Ersa (Jun 27, 2015)

As someone who despises Itachi I still think he holds the edge over Minato in most areas.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

Trolling said:


> That was their first time fighting him, that why Minato got as far as he did.  Bee got tagged when he wasn't even really fighting he was saving his brother.  Also the terrain favored Minato.




It was the first time Minato fought them to, and it really isn't Minato's problem that they got distracted during combat that pretty much just shows the difference between them as Shinobi, It was pretty clear Minato wasn't even taking them seriously he pretty much thought they were scrubs waiting for him to clean up. I mean Jesus he scarred Ei so bad he thought Minato was actually unbeatable. Minato basically just played with them for a bit.


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## Bookworm (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> It was the first time Minato fought them to, and it really isn't Minato's problem that they got distracted during combat that pretty much just shows the difference between them as Shinobi, It was pretty clear Minato wasn't even taking them seriously he pretty much thought they were scrubs waiting for him to clean up. I mean Jesus he scarred Ei so bad he thought Minato was actually unbeatable. Minato basically just played with them for a bit.



And yet in the many times Ei fought Minato after the first time, Minato was never able to kill him.


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 27, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> As someone who despises Itachi I still think he holds the edge over Minato in most areas.



You honestly confused me. I didn't know I had a Stan who used my specifically made avatar.


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## JuicyG (Jun 27, 2015)

Minato's part 1 hype was about is beast as they come


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## Sadgoob (Jun 27, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> As someone who despises Itachi I still think he holds the edge over Minato in most areas.



You got me 

I was thinking "Uh, EU, I think you mixed your words up."


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> *Jiraiya: "Oh, No, Minato was a rare genius. You don't see the likes of him very often. He was kind and gentle, yet fierce of full of grit. Became the fourth Hokage in the blink of an eye"
> *



 So having Hokage Reasoning along with being promoted to Anbu Captain at the age of 13 doesn't constitute as being a rare genius?


----------



## Six (Jun 27, 2015)

That king


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So having Hokage Reasoning along with being promoted to Anbu Captain at the age of 13 doesn't constitute as being a rare genius?




Don't get me wrong Itachi is a Genius, just not as much as Minato was, I mean in the end of the day Itachi was a failure, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take Itachi's


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 27, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Don't get me wrong Itachi is a Genius, just not as much as Minato was, I mean in the end of the day Itachi was a failure, and if you don't want to take my word for it, take Itachi's



Killer Bee

 Minato also concedes to being a failure, so apparently, we've gotten nowhere.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

Minato was also an objectively stupid bitch when he _chose_ to die with Kushina instead of going through with her plan which would have allowed him to survive to protect the village.

It was pure plot protection that Obito didn't come back the next day to steal Naruto from the orphanage and destroy Konoha.​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> allowed him to survive
> 
> Minato also concedes to being a failure, so apparently, we've gotten nowhere.



Nah you can tell Minato just said that to make Hiruzen look less like shit. That noble man Minato always looking out for others


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Nah you can tell Minato just said that to make Hiruzen look less like shit. That noble man Minato always looking out for others



 Itachi's known to be a rather cunning individual, so no doubt Itachi was just lying there because you know Itachi, the noble man who watches out for his little brother and Konoha.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Itachi's known to be a rather cunning individual, so no doubt Itachi was just lying there because you know Itachi, the noble man who watches out for his little brother and Konoha.



Yes Itachi the noble man that killed little kids and his girlfriend and subjected his kid brother to 72 hours of torture, what a Noble Beast.


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## Six (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato was also an objectively stupid bitch when he _chose_ to die with Kushina instead of going through with her plan which would have allowed him to survive to protect the village.
> 
> It was pure plot protection that Obito didn't come back the next day to steal Naruto from the orphanage and destroy Konoha.​



, now that I think about it, he was a retard for dying. Dude could have come at any point in Naruto's life and extract Kurama. So much for Minato's genius.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Yes Itachi the noble man that killed little kids and his girlfriend and subjected his kid brother to 72 hours of torture, what a Noble Beast.



 All for the sake of Konoha.


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## thechickensage (Jun 28, 2015)

At least Minato looks like a normal human:


Seriously, who tf has lines on their face like this:


How does having hokage reasoning help you if you bring down the quality of the whole hokage mountain with your facial deformities?

Also, he murdered women and children.  Some of whom were pacifists.  Hashirama would NOT consider that Hokage reasoning.  He would have killed Itachi.  So...his opinion of Itachi-the-child is hardly relevant.  In the end, he did something no true hokage would do.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Seriously, who tf has lines on their face like this



They indicate stress, burden, etc.


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> At least Minato looks like a normal human:
> 
> 
> Seriously, who tf has lines on their face like this:
> ...



Well to be fair Hiruzen wanted to make Orochimaru Hokage, if Minato wasn't there he would've been, and he straight up looks CREEPY. Hell Danzo straight up makes himself Temporary Hokage during the Summit arc, and he was a straight up dick. Hell Tobirama was a dick to and was very racist towards Uchiha in general, and it was because of his "reasoning" skills whitch motivated the Uchiha revolution in the first place, So what this "Hokage" level reasoning is even suppose to mean is beyond me. Because the only Hokages that weren't actually stupid were Hashirama and Minato, the rest sucked.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> They indicate stress, burden, etc.



Obama level Stress?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

You're confused about the nature of the shinobi world, ruled by assassins, who kill without guilt for coins, and eagerly engage in massive wars for material advantages.​


GilgameshXFate said:


> Obama level Stress?



Seriously.​


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Or you're oversimplifying everything. All of the Hokage are ninja, paid mercenaries, and they know that war and death and domination are often required for peace. Rebellions are uprooted.​
> 
> 
> Seriously.​





So the answer to the Uchiha rebellion is to wipe them out to the last man? Do you really think Hashirama would of approved of that plan? Hell Minato thought he could of ended the Rebellion sooner and without having to wipe the clan.


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## thechickensage (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> [Indented stuff]​



Why do you indent your comments?


----------



## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> So the answer to the Uchiha rebellion is to wipe them out to the last man?



The shinobi world imitates feudal Japan's morality, not the modern United States (or wherever you're from.)​


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## Legendary Itachi (Jun 28, 2015)

The blonde spares Lolbito's life that night after all the shit he's done and selfishly left his son alone to face all problems for 16 years, yet ppl expect him to tackle a far complicated issue.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The shinobi world imitates feudal Japan's morality, not the modern United States (or wherever you're from.)​
> 
> 
> Hashirama had killed so many people by the time he died that he could make entire mountain chains out of their corpses. He's no stranger to having to kill people when negotiation doesn't work.​


​
there is a difference. Back in Hashirama's day every clan was like its own mini village, so him killing other's was just to protect his "village" from being wiped by another clan, When the actual village system was erected the Uchiha were wiped by THEIR own village, It would be like If New York City planned to topple America's Government system, but the bigwigs decided to drop a nuke on NYC and then when people complain they shouldn't of done that be like " Well they wanted to Rebel they asked for it" like wut.





Strategoob said:


> He did say "perhaps." I'm not sure what he could have done that Hiruzen could not, but I doubt Minato knew himself.


Minato would of told Fugaku and Mikito to sit down, knock their bad behavior off, or he would settle it personally. More likely then not they would be so paralyzed with fear they wouldn't even mess with Konoha again, well atleast until Minato died.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 28, 2015)

"Flee on sight"? Itachi can mindfuck you while being several kilometers away. Imagine his presence at the War. "Flee if you hear a rumor about Itachi being in the neighborhood".


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> "Flee on sight"? Itachi can mindfuck you while being several kilometers away. Imagine his presence at the War. "Flee if you hear a rumor about Itachi being in the neighborhood".



Yeah and Minato can kill you an infinite amount of distance away as long as he has the area your in tagged. Plus Itachi doesn't have a Kilometer long Genjutsu he can put people under so thats a problem. Hell Shisui the stated Strongest Genjutsu user in the Uchiha doesn't have such a long range Genjutsu, so what the hell are you talking about?


----------



## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Yeah and Minato can kill you an infinite amount of distance away as long as he has the area your in tagged. Plus Itachi doesn't have a Kilometer long Genjutsu he can put people under so thats a problem. Hell Shisui the stated Strongest Genjutsu user in the Uchiha doesn't have such a long range Genjutsu, so what the hell are you talking about?




Helps to read the manga, I mean I hate Itachi so much that I cannot even describe it but I still read the manga. That's why I choose Minato as my favorite character because he's mentally challenged and is interesting to read about.


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Jun 28, 2015)

Do you hate Gaara or Itachi more?


----------



## Kyu (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Minato was also an objectively stupid bitch when he _chose_ to die with Kushina instead of going through with her plan which would have allowed him to survive to protect the village.
> 
> It was pure plot protection that Obito didn't come back the next day to steal Naruto from the orphanage and destroy Konoha.​



Kushina's plan was a temporary solution that could've _easily_ produced an uncontrollable catastrophe once Kurama reappeared. 

It was a massive gamble either way you look at it.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Helps to read the manga, I mean I hate Itachi so much that I cannot even describe it but I still read the manga. That's why I choose Minato as my favorite character because he's mentally challenged and is interesting to read about.



Did you read the scan you posted? Right after Shikaku theorized it might be a mass genjutsu by Itachi. Ao flat out says its physically impossible for even Itachi  to perform a genjutsu of that scale. Also even if Itachi could do it then why didn't he ever use it during his life?


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Did you read the scan you posted? Right after Shikaku theorized it might be a mass genjutsu by Itachi. Ao flat out says its physically impossible for even Itachi  to perform a genjutsu of that scale. Also even if Itachi could do it then why didn't he ever use it during his life?


I did.

As a devoted hater of Itachi, even I have to say it suggests that it cannot be done to thousands but nothing says it can't be done on a smaller scale. So mindfucking dozens of people is still scary.

This is why I can't stand Itachi, he's simply too outstanding. Characters like Minato who are dumb are much more interesting.


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I did.
> 
> As a devoted hater of Itachi, even I have to say it suggests that it cannot be done to thousands but nothing says it can't be done on a smaller scale. So mindfucking dozens of people is still scary.
> 
> This is why I can't stand Itachi, he's simply too outstanding. Characters like Minato who are dumb are much more interesting.




Thing is Ao said it couldn't be done PERIOD, not any of this well on a couple of people yeah, Hell the stated BEST GENJUTSU in the series Koto is so good it could put you in an undetectable genjutsu which is why its so dangerous, but now your trying to tell me Itachi has a casual genjutsu thats pretty much a multiple person Koto? That makes zero sense. I mean according to Databook 4 Minato's speed is so fast it slows down time, Is Minato a time manipulator now? I Mean its been stated in the canon Databook right? Minato just never showed it for personal reasons you know?


----------



## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Thing is Ao said it couldn't be done PERIOD, not any of this well on a couple of people yeah, Hell the stated BEST GENJUTSU in the series Koto is so good it could put you in an undetectable genjutsu which is why its so dangerous, but now your trying to tell me Itachi has a casual genjutsu thats pretty much a multiple person Koto? That makes zero sense. I mean according to Databook 4 Minato's speed is so fast it slows down time, Is Minato a time manipulator now? I Mean its been stated in the canon Databook right? Minato just never showed it for personal reasons you know?


Your reading comprehension is off. Ao said Itachi was the only one who could do it and not be detected by him, he did however say he couldn't do it on the large scale that White Zetsu was operating at. So what we can glean from this is that Itachi can do what the White Zetsu did but not on the same scale. To what scale is unknown but Ao says it is possible.

This is why I can't stand Itachi, he's simply too outstanding. Characters like Minato who are dumb are much more interesting.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Your reading comprehension is off. Ao said Itachi was the only one who could do it and not be detected by him, he did however say he couldn't do it on the large scale that White Zetsu was operating at. So what we can glean from this is that Itachi can do what the White Zetsu did but not on the same scale. To what scale is unknown but Ao says it is possible.
> 
> This is why I can't stand Itachi, he's simply too outstanding. Characters like Minato who are dumb are much more interesting.



I'll agree with Itachi having this super area of effect Genjutsu if you agree with this



			
				Databook4 said:
			
		

> during the 3rd Great Ninja War, he led inferior Konoha camps to victory for times too numerous to mention.



and this



			
				Databook4 said:
			
		

> Praised among all ninja as the greatest in god-like speed


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Yeah and Minato can kill you an infinite amount of distance away as long as he has the area your in tagged. Plus Itachi doesn't have a Kilometer long Genjutsu he can put people under so thats a problem. Hell Shisui the stated Strongest Genjutsu user in the Uchiha doesn't have such a long range Genjutsu, so what the hell are you talking about?



 Good thing Minato can't place a tag a few kilometers away as fast as Itachi can simply use a Genjutsu.

 And no, it was implied that Itachi is the only one capable of using a Genjutsu well outside a sensor's range.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Good thing Minato can't place a tag a few kilometers away as fast as Itachi can simply use a Genjutsu.
> 
> And no, it was implied that Itachi is the only one capable of using a Genjutsu well outside a sensor's range.



In the Databook it was implied Minato's god-like speed was enough to make time look stopped, well actually outright stated but you know.


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I'll agree with Itachi having this super area of effect Genjutsu if you agree with this
> 
> 
> 
> and this


There is nothing to concede.

It's a canon statement.

Even one who despises Itachi to the level I do can see that.


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## Six (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> There is nothing to concede.
> 
> It's a canon statement.
> 
> Even one who despises Itachi to the level I do can see that.



Lmao do you really hate Itachi? It seems every thread you're on, you always see him winning


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Lmao do you really hate Itachi? It seems every thread you're on, you always see him winning


I am the original Minato and Jiraiya fan. I like these characters because they are challenged. I despise Itachi because he is simply better then them and I find it uninteresting.


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## Six (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I am the original Minato and Jiraiya fan. I like these characters because they are challenged. I despise Itachi because he is simply better then them and I find it uninteresting.



Fair enough, they are awesome characters. Did you like Minato back when he was shown as actually unstoppable?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 28, 2015)

Minato hype far exceeds that of Itachi. As a devoted Itachi fan since 06', I can honestly say, after debating since the age of 12, that Itachi fails in comparison. 

Itachi stated that he is far inferior to Base Jiraiya. Base Jiraiya admitted inferiority to Minato. Moreover, the author of the manga, stated that Minato had unparalled strength. 

Kishimoto's statement > Itachi's statement > your statement.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

It seems Minato fans are relying on a lot of fan-extrapolation from panels instead of just posting the panels themselves. Because Minato has inferior hype. I'll collect the images Minato fans have posted and put them in the OP for easy comparison.​


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It seems Minato fans are relying on a lot of fan-extrapolation from panels instead of just posting the panels themselves. Because Minato has inferior hype.​



It would take way too long to accumulate all of the panels from part 1 to date of minatos hype.

I may do it later if i have the time. Has to be on a computer and not a mobile device like what im using mow. And i cant be bothered to long onto a computer right now.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 28, 2015)

_Awesome_. Still. Everybody spare everybody on extrapolation. 

No Minato fan believes the "Orochimaru thought he had Edo Hashirama, Edo Tobirama, and Edo Minato as support and still wouldn't even approach Itachi and would rather attack Konoha." 

And no Itachi fan believes "Kid Minato killed elite Kumo ninja that even prime Hiruzen couldn't, and he was the only ninja in history to have flee on sight orders, not even Hashirama had those."

Just post the panels themselves, as your interpretation won't convince anybody that isn't already convinced one way or another. Only manga panels themselves can really do that.

Additionally, if you are going to gather hype, try and just post the best direct hype (like top 15) of each category, and keep in mind quality over quantity. I didn't post a lot of stuff like: 



"Forgive me Itachi"
Itachi mastering the Sharingan at 8
Itachi being the best academy student ever
Itachi beating Orochimaru at 11
Zetsu thought Itachi had been badly wounded before Sasuke
Databook calling Itachi's attack and defense perfectly flawless
"Got anything else, Sasuke?"
Easily beating Deidara
Orochimaru saying Itachi was an impossible dream
Sasuke saying it was impossible for them to defeat Itachi.
Kabuto saying Itachi was the most perfect foil of Edo Tensei
Itachi clone(s) neg-diffing pre and post Wind Naruto
Danzo calling Itachi a perfect ninja
Danzo saying Itachi's genjutsu was like heaven above earth
Kabuto saying he was on another level to Nagato, KCM Naruto
Etc.

Because the point of those categories is already made better in other hype, and I didn't want to bore everybody with repetition. And like I said before, I wanted to avoid all extrapolation.​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> _Awesome_. Still. Everybody spare everybody on extrapolation.
> 
> No Minato fan believes the "Orochimaru thought he had Edo Hashirama, Edo Tobirama, and Edo Minato as support and still wouldn't even approach Itachi and would rather attack Konoha."
> 
> ...



If you want just random panels Hyping Minato here you go


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Minato > Tobi+Kyubi*

*Minato > Tobirama*

*Minato best savior hype*

*Minat>V2 Ei> MS Sasuke*

*Minato teaches Naruto how to be the savior*

*Minato> All of Iwagakure*

*Minat> Naruto Period*


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## StickaStick (Jun 28, 2015)

They are both chalked full of hype up the ass but I find Minato's more impressive. His hype made him to look like the GOAT and while Minato fans (and readers of _Naruto _in general) might have expected more out of him during the War-Arc I think it's important to consider the threats he was up against and the circumstances of the situation. He basically spent his entire time after being ET'd working against God-tiers and was limited early when he had one of his arms removed by Juubito. As far as circumstances go Kishi had other characters to sell such as Tobirama who probably took away some of the panel time and feats that otherwise might very well have gone to Minato instead. Despite that he was still impressive in some respects such as aiding in saving the entire Alliance against Juubito's quad-bijuudama, among other things. Contrast this to Itachi who after he was revived dealt with lesser threats and was at full capacity, if not past what he was capable of alive, for the entire duration.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 28, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> They are both chalked full of hype up the ass but I find Minato's more impressive. His hype made him to look like the GOAT and while Minato fans (and readers of _Naruto _in general) might have expected more out of him during the War-Arc I think it's important to consider the threats he was up against and the circumstances of the situation. He basically spent his entire time after being ET'd working against God-tiers and was limited early when he had one of his arms removed by Juubito. As far as circumstances go Kishi had other characters to sell such as Tobirama who probably took away some of the panel time and feats that otherwise might very well have gone to Minato instead. Despite that he was still impressive in some respects such as aiding in saving the entire Alliance against Juubito's quad-bijuudama, among other things. Contrast this to Itachi who after he was revived dealt with lesser threats and was at full capacity, if not past what he was capable of alive, for the entire duration.


Mad respect for this post.

You are one of the only prople who recognize that being inferior to a Juubi Jinchuuriki doesn't make Minato look bad. Not sure why people think his performance was under par, especially after Hashirama's initial admittance of inferiority to Juubito. I think saving the entire alliance twice should hold more praise than anything else to be honest.


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## Icegaze (Jun 28, 2015)

flee on sight is the greatest hype anyone can get in the manga
Rock and cloud village had those orders to their men during time of war. can you imagine. 

we are at war but do remember to become a coward If you see minato 

yh itachi comes no where close to that


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## Ersa (Jun 28, 2015)

Even as a devoted fan of Minato since the inception of the NBD, I can honestly say, after extensive debating classes, that he does not have the hype.

Tobirama told him that he was like his son, both mentally challenged. Thus we can conclude my fav will probably also attempt to use Rasengan on a Rinnegan user. Despite being a overly vocal Itachi hater even I have to admit Tobirama knows better then we do.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 28, 2015)

Minato has not only better hype but more believable hype as well. 

For every nonsense(sometimes even stemming from retcons) hype that itachi receive all somebody gotta do is look back at how he needed help with beating people like nagato and SM kabuto.

Minato's hype meshes well with his showing be able to operate highly on any tier of combat even if it includes juubi jins.

Add in how minato has received direct hype from people like kyuubi, madara, itachi himself, entire nations and their leader plus even hagoromo himself and i believe minato takes it.


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## FlamingRain (Jun 28, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> I want to add, that even fighting together, the 3 Sannin during the 3rd great Shinobi world war didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them.



How do you know this?


----------



## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> How do you know this?



Because nothing in the mange says otherwise? or even hints at it for that matter. I mean in all the wars we see them fighting in, we Have Amegakure and we see nobody fleeing them, hell they were just regular commanders, Minato went in by himself and wrekt everyone. The second time we see Tsunade in the war that Dan died nobody fled from Tsunade, or Dan for that matter who was apparently a serious Hokage candidate atleast High Jounin level. Hell We know for a fact that Sakumo the guy that was stated to Surpass the Sannin didn't get any such warning as he apparently wrekt the Sunagakure frontline , killing Sasori's Fodder parents, who obviously didn't flee on sight of him.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 28, 2015)

Minato hype wins automatically considering Itachi's "hype" is only involves purposely misinterpreting the context of remarks made regarding Itachi, while missing out things which remove these distortions.



Strategoob said:


> It seems Minato fans are relying on a lot of fan-extrapolation from panels instead of just posting the panels themselves. Because Minato has inferior hype. I'll collect the images Minato fans have posted and put them in the OP for easy comparison.​


----------



## Elite Uchiha (Jun 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Even as a devoted fan of Minato since the inception of the NBD, I can honestly say, after extensive debating classes, that he does not have the hype.



2011 Join Date
Inception of NBD

Pick one.

Come on Elite Uchiha Stan


----------



## Bonly Jr. (Jun 28, 2015)

Minato is clearly on another level. Those with the Sharingan were automatically deemed genius. Minato came from nothing with fodder genes and left his mark on the verse. Take away Itachi's genes and he's a basic Uchiha with good Shuriken jutsu and a really fast Shunshin lmfao.


----------



## Six (Jun 28, 2015)

Bonly Jr. said:


> Minato is clearly on another level. Those with the Sharingan were automatically deemed genius. Minato came from nothing with fodder genes and left his mark on the verse. Take away Itachi's genes and he's a basic Uchiha with good Shuriken jutsu and a really fast Shunshin lmfao.



Take away flying raijin and Minato is another speedy ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with a rasengan and a double sworded sealing jutsu


----------



## Rocky (Jun 28, 2015)

What we all know:

They were both prodigies.

They've both received _tons and tons_ of praise. 

They both focus on precision rather than power.

They've both proven capable of beating top class opponents.

They both specialize in one area but can do other things at an incredibly high level.

...they're comparable characters. The reason why no fandom can win this war is because both sides can have pretty good points. Comparing hype isn't the best way to evaluate strength (Early PII Kakashi has better hype than Tobirama imo), so why don't we all just agree to say the two are pretty damn close, regardless of whom we think wins?


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## Elite Uchiha (Jun 28, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Take away flying raijin and Minato is another speedy ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with a rasengan and a double sworded sealing jutsu



Take away sharingan from Itachi and we have someone who can't even compare to Tayuga....oh wait. Itachi needed help from another EMS user to defeat Tayuga's genjutsu


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 28, 2015)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Take away sharingan from Itachi and we have someone who can't even compare to Tayuga....oh wait. Itachi needed help from another EMS user to defeat Tayuga's genjutsu



To actually be fair towards Itachi, that Genjutsu was boosted by Sage Mode so its not that bad he couldn't break it. Itachi isn't complete garbage he was stated to be a Genius, and he did show some impressive basic skills, that are comparable to Minato. Even his Uchiha skills aren't entirely generic, His Tsukiyomi has time distortion effects and his Susan'o had the Totsuka Blade, and Yata Mirror. Itachi is not drastically inferior to Minato I really believe that, Its just some people wank him to a level he never was, and that disappointing to me.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Because nothing in the mange says otherwise?



It should be obvious enough that it shouldn't have to.

Every S-class ninja known could have had that warning attached to them without Kishimoto ever feeling the need to explicitly tell any of us about it.

"Flee on sight" was a command given to fodder by fodder, not entirely unlike "if it's one on one definitely run" was for fodder enemies of the Uchiha, and the name of Uchiha pales in comparison to the Sannin.

The famous Kakashi who fans coined the term "elite Jōnin" for just about crapped his pants at the prospect of facing Orochimaru. Akatsuki members shied away from fighting Jiraiya and Kakashi suspected that it was his presence that deterred them trying to grab Naruto over the timeskip. There exists an adage of "only another Sannin can beat a Sannin".

These three are not people smart commanders would have their troops readily try to engage.



> I mean in all the wars we see them fighting in, we Have Amegakure and we see nobody fleeing them, hell they were just regular commanders, Minato went in by himself and wrekt everyone.



Implying we ever see more than tiny fragments of specific events. Outside of the Kakashi Gaiden, we see none of the scenes of battle themselves, we only see and hear about specific aftermaths.

That _doesn't_ mean nothing besides those particular things revealed to us happened.

Appealing to an instance where the Sannin _before they were even the Sannin_, which was in turn before they were the _Legendary Sannin_, fought against the world famous guy who demolished the entire Konoha platoon does nothing to suggest that they didn't have a flee on sight order placed on them. _Hanzo_ would not flee on sight from Minato just like Ay and Bee did not and would not flee from Minato, _and there are no other Amegakure ninja present at that scene anyway_.



> The second time we see Tsunade in the war that Dan died nobody fled from Tsunade, or Dan for that matter who was apparently a serious Hokage candidate atleast High Jounin level.



Dan died, yeah, and when you look at the panels of that scene _there are no enemy ninja present_. No fighting in the background, and not even any dead bodies nearby either. For all we know they could've walked into a trap that had been set up, or the attackers tried advancing after launching a surprise attack before getting close enough to identify Tsunade and proceeding to hightail it out of there.

Dan striving to be Hokage does not mean he was actually considered for the position, by the way.



> We know for a fact that Sakumo the guy that was stated to Surpass the Sannin didn't get any such warning as he apparently wrekt the Sunagakure frontline , killing Sasori's Fodder parents, who obviously didn't flee on sight of him.



This idea that if anybody killed someone that shows they didn't have a flee on sight order put on them is..._bizarre_.

That's demonstrably false. We never even _saw_ anybody flee _from Minato_- we only had someone who _didn't_ flee mention it being advised by army commanders before being killed, and later Minato confronting a group that included Ay and Bee with nobody at the scene fleeing.

I mean the way you're talking you'd think people with flee-on-sight orders must not be able contribute to the war at all.


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## Trojan (Jun 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> What we all know:
> 
> They were both prodigies.
> 
> ...



Nah, it's because people completely refuse where the manga placed itachi, and try desperately to take him out of the fact that he is Jiraiay's "rival" so to speak. 

On other words, the reason that fandoms can't agree is simply because they take what fits them, and ignore/discredits what against them.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> To actually be fair towards Itachi, that Genjutsu was boosted by Sage Mode so its not that bad he couldn't break it. Itachi isn't complete garbage he was stated to be a Genius, and he did show some impressive basic skills, that are comparable to Minato. Even his Uchiha skills aren't entirely generic, His Tsukiyomi has time distortion effects and his Susan'o had the Totsuka Blade, and Yata Mirror. Itachi is not drastically inferior to Minato I really believe that, Its just some people wank him to a level he never was, and that disappointing to me.






Elite Uchiha said:


> Take away sharingan from Itachi and we have someone who can't even compare to Tayuga....oh wait. Itachi needed help from another EMS user to defeat Tayuga's genjutsu



There is actually no evidence that Itachi couldn't break it.

And you are pretty dumb if you think either Sasuke or Itachi wouldn't be able to break it if they tried on their own when we know that part 1 Shikamaru was able to.



Hussain said:


> Nah, it's because people completely refuse where the manga placed itachi, and try desperately to take him out of the fact that he is Jiraiay's "rival" so to speak.
> 
> On other words, the reason that fandoms can't agree is simply because they take what fits them, and ignore/discredits what against them.



Jiraiya's rival is Orochimaru. Itachi is way beyond both of their league.

Jiraiya and Itachi have nothing in common.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

shikamaru broke tayuya genjutsu pretty sure either uchiha could have its simply quicker to do what they did
kabuto even tried to genjutsu himself to break out of izanami


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jun 29, 2015)

Obito was aware of their hype.

Itachi chose to hide from Obito and only planned to take him out via a surprise attack through Sasuke. Minato actually outsmarted Obito.

Plus you'd think the things they'd achieved would clear up a lot. Minato mastering all the Uzumaki seals and being the sole reason the third shinobi war went in Konoha's favour. Relative to Itachi who couldn't even master the MS to a very high standard (couldn't get anything more than a shield or sword with Susanoo or Kagutsuchi).

To be honest when a SM Naruto who surpassed base Minato, was considered stronger than a MS Sasuke who surpassed MS Itachi... that should have been a clear signal that Minato's level is about Itachi's.

Then again a lot of these argumentsfor Itachi's hype assume he can take guys like Kabuto, Tobi and Rinnegan users.

TL;DR: the side which doesn't distort context to find its point wins i.e. Minato's hype is better.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 29, 2015)

According to the Kishimoto, "Everyone was reaching for his (Minato's) level."*
Itachi is someone.**
Someones are a part of the group containing everyone.
Therefore Itachi was reaching was reaching for Minato's level.
It is implicit in reaching for something that one has not attained that for which they reach.
Therefore, Minato's hype trumps Itachi's.

*The databook gives the author's direct and unfiltered thoughts on the series.  As such, there is no higher praise a character can be given than the author's direct statement that all aspire to one day be as he was. 

**It is not reasonable to assume that someone could aspire to Minato's level if they came before him.  It is for this reason that someone and everyone refer only to those who came after or during Minato's existence.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

nice one PoW

should have polled this thread OP


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## Kaiser (Jun 29, 2015)

Minato has better hype. As someone noted, Minato has more believable and consistent hype. Itachi's hype majoritarily comes from misinterpretations of manga panels that are contradicted by actual feats


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## Bonly Jr. (Jun 29, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Take away flying raijin and Minato is another speedy ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) with a rasengan and a double sworded sealing jutsu



How is being born with great genes and learning an S-rank jutsu and making it *better* even the same? That just adds more genius to Minato's character


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## FlamingRain (Jun 29, 2015)

Kishimoto makes it clear that there is such a thing as being a genius with the Sharingan, just like there is such as thing as a genius with the Byakugan. Those are abilities that need to be refined, too.

Talent or genetic, those are both natural things someone is born with. It doesn't make any sense to try and say "what if Itachi wasn't born with his unique genes" because then _it wouldn't be Itachi anymore_.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> According to the Kishimoto, "Everyone was reaching for his (Minato's) level."*
> 
> It is implicit in reaching for something that one has not attained that for which they reach.



It's in the _past tense_ (assuming that's a direct quote).

Technically, even if Itachi aspired to reach Minato's level, _and did_, before he died- Kishimoto could still say "everyone _was_ reaching for his level", because _at some point in their lives_ everybody went reaching for it.


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

Is it safe to assume that people are NOT OK with calling them both equal geniuses at what they do?


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## ShadoLord (Jun 29, 2015)

Minato-no competition.

Itachi's hype is for being far above Orochimaru.

Minato's hype to be the strongest Hokage and defeat the Kyuubi.


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## UchihaX28 (Jun 29, 2015)

Lord Wave said:


> Minato-no competition.
> 
> Itachi's hype is for being far above Orochimaru.
> 
> Minato's hype to be the strongest Hokage and defeat the Kyuubi.



 To be fair, Uchihas are well-known for subdueing Bijuu and Itachi has one of the most effective Genjutsu in the Manga.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is actually no evidence that Itachi couldn't break it.
> 
> And you are pretty dumb if you think either Sasuke or Itachi wouldn't be able to break it if they tried on their own when we know that part 1 Shikamaru was able to.




Kabuto must have been pretty stupid then. Right?


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## TheGreen1 (Jun 29, 2015)

Itachi was great, no doubt about that. But Iwa had a flee on sight order against Minato. That kinda Hype is just undeniable.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

GilgameshXFate said:


> Kabuto must have been pretty stupid then. Right?



Kabuto wasn't able to assess their abilities correctly through out the entire battle(hence everything he tried failed) why would sound genjutsu be the outlier ?



TheGreen1 said:


> Itachi was great, no doubt about that. But Iwa had a flee on sight order against Minato. That kinda Hype is just undeniable.



That "hype" is meaningless.
Stronger people didn't have similar hype, even guys like Madara or Hashirama.

Flee on sight just shows that most Shinobi Minato'd encounter during the war wouldn't be a match for him. Which were mostly fodder. That hype wouldn't apply to named characters.

I mean, a guy like Asuma thought he could take on Itachi, a guy who was known for annihilating the Uchiha clan single handedly.


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## Icegaze (Jun 29, 2015)

madara and hashirama never had flee on sight orders because the  only people they fought were themselves 

such orders wont need to be given I don't think any fodder in his right mind would see PS and proceed 

so they had said orders but not officially as it simply wasn't needed. if hashirama was on the battlefield madara would be there to counter and vice versa

minato had said orders because in his generation none remotely compared to him. he fought wars as the uncontested best. hiruzen even had to retire due to being massively outclassed


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Suna had a "flee on sight" rule of thumb for any Sharingan user.

Y'all are attributing way more glory to that rule than you should.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 29, 2015)

In actuality, I view this more by their archetypes, than by individual statements of hype.  Itachi is the ace, while Minato is Mr. Perfect.  They're comparable, because both have outstanding skill, and wow observers, and are never directly compared, which is why you can make strong arguments for both.  

The usual theme of the Ace is that while they're amazing, they can never resolve the major tension in plot.  (That is ultimately left to the hero archetype, who has the one thing the Ace lacks.)  This is is usually somehow in spite of their talents.  Mr. Perfect, on the hand, sort of can.  Or could.   Or at least it looks like he could have, since everything goes well when he's around, and often bad things happen because he isn't.  Typically their hangup is that they're not available to save the day for reasons, which is why it falls upon the hero.

I don't see a lot of variation with Minato and Itachi on these models.  Itachi tried very hard to do everything himself, and was absolutely amazing, but he couldn't succeed in spite of his outstanding ability.  In fact, it's possibly because of it that he refused the help of others, and didn't realize his limitation.  He said so much himself, and then resolved to do what he could to help the main character.  Which was quite a bit, what with defeating Kabuto and ending edo tensei and all.  Minato's flaw is that he was never around when it really mattered, which is interesting given that his character is based around speed and teleportation.  We got those messages a lot.  Hiruzen saying that Orochimaru never would have invaded if Minato was around, but he wasn't.  Obito chastising him for not being there to save him or Rin.  The previous kages discussing all the ills of the world and their faults as Hokage, and Minato apologizing for not being around to fix all of those things.  His rasengan was incomplete, and while he correctly dismissed the idea of Obito being Madara, he didn't have the time or opportunity to tackle the mystery.  From what he and the characters around him said, Minato's greatest flaw seems to have been dying young, and not living on to fulfill the aspirations they had of him.  

Those are failures, but they're _indirect_ failures, and that I think is key to separating the two archetypes.  If then I had to choose which of the two portrayals is stronger, I'll go with Mr. Perfect, and with it Minato.  But it's close, and for most of the series, whatever suspicions I had, I wasn't confident enough to say, and I respected the debate between them.

Also if anyone is going to come in with an ahah Minato had a direct failure here, or Itachi had an indirect failure there, this is based on the over all idea of their personal stories and legacies.  Not a lot of variation does imply some, even if not significant.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In actuality, I view this more by their archetypes, than by individual statements of hype.  Itachi is the ace, while Minato is Mr. Perfect.  They're comparable, because both have outstanding skill, and wow observers, and are never directly compared, which is why you can make strong arguments for both.
> 
> The usual theme of the Ace is that while they're amazing, they can never resolve the major tension in plot.  (That is ultimately left to the hero archetype, who has the one thing the Ace lacks.)  This is is usually somehow in spite of their talents.  Mr. Perfect, on the hand, sort of can.  Or could.   Or at least it looks like he could have, since everything goes well when he's around, and often bad things happen because he isn't.  Typically their hangup is that they're not available to save the day for reasons, which is why it falls upon the hero.
> 
> ...



I mostly agree with what you'r saying.

I have to add though, Minato "was" Mr.Perfect, not "is." I think we clearly witnessed his limitations during the war arc and he wasn't able to achieve anything on his own.

So when talking about Minato's achievements before the manga took place, he seems more impressive.
Same goes for Itachi. He is always portrayed as a perfect individual in his flashbacks. He annhilated the Uchiha clan, made a mockery of Orochimaru in a few panels, was portrayed like God against Deidara. 
This is pretty apparent for Minato as well. I mean, wasn't his "I failed" speech  after his revival basically a repetation of Itachi's ? 

War arc humanized Minato.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 29, 2015)

Without going into the mess that was the final stages of the war arc, I don't think it is.  Like I mentioned, Minato's failures were mostly indirect failures, while Itachi's were more direct.  

Minato's failure speech was that he died.  If he had lived, maybe he could have averted the disaster.

Itachi's I failed speech was that he tried to do everything himself, and he couldn't.  Had he trusted people, things might have gone differently.  

Itachi indirectly draws that distinction between himself and Minato here.  Minato trusted in others, and had Kushina and others to support him, along with the respect and backing of the village.  That's why Minato was in a position to potentially avert the catastrophes had he been there, and Itachi, despite being awesome and alive secret shadow warrior, failed.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I don't see a lot of variation with Minato and Itachi on these models.  Itachi tried very hard to do everything himself, and was absolutely amazing, but he couldn't succeed in spite of his outstanding ability.  In fact, it's possibly because of it that he refused the help of others, and didn't realize his limitation.  He said so much himself, and then resolved to do what he could to help the main character.  Which was quite a bit, what with defeating Kabuto and ending edo tensei and all.  Minato's flaw is that he was never around when it really mattered.



I disagree and would offer an alternate viewpoint for you to consider: both failed to kill Obito, only delay his machinations, and ultimately expected other people to carry on after they died.

The difference is in _how they died_. How a ninja dies is a huge deal. It's been brought up many times, most memorably when Jiraiya fought Pain and in Itachi's conversation with Kisame. 

If you reread how Minato died, his final words to Kushina mirrored Shisui's final words. He _could not bare_ a life without Kushina. He chose not to endure her proposal that would result in him living.

The reason Hashirama, the god of shinobi, said Itachi put him to shame as a ninja is because _Itachi could endure_. This is why he was considered the greatest shinobi, and a perfect ninja.

So you're right, but you're wrong too. Minato's flaw was that he was not around to stop things, but not just that. It was that he _chose_ not to be around when he _could_ have been around to stop it.

It was not a Mr. Perfect bad stroke of luck that he wasn't around to save the day. It was personal weakness. Itachi's flaw is the Yang to Minato's Yin. He tried to carry too much. 

And following that same pattern, both prevented Obito from attacking Konoha for some time. But Itachi worked from the thankless shadows, and Minato in the glory and light.

This plays a _huge_ factor in the GOAT discussion. So few people knew of Itachi's strength relative to Minato, but those that did (Obito, Orochimaru, Kabuto, Sasuke ) revered Itachi _more_.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Hiruzen saying that Orochimaru never would have invaded if Minato was around, but he wasn't.



That's not what was said. What Hiruzen actually said was "Don't say that. The Fourth already gave his life once." Arguably implying that, on the contrary, he wasn't above Orochimaru. Unlike somebody.​


The Pirate on Wheels said:


> and while he correctly dismissed the idea of Obito being Madara, he didn't have the time or opportunity to tackle the mystery.



If you review what he actually said, Minato dismissed the idea of _anybody_ living that long. It was a dismissal born of ignorance, pure and simple, because we know ninja can and have lived that long.​


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> If you reread how Minato died, his final words to Kushina mirrored Shisui's final words. He _could not bare_ a life without Kushina. He chose not to endure her proposal that would result in him living.



You _honestly_ think that? 

You know the whole "destined child" plotline of _Naruto_ was the reason Minato didn't let Kushina drag the thing down with her, right?


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

Hashi's statements about Itachi being [insert hype here] are worthless. 

1.  Itachi was a very young child when he knew him.
2.  Itachi murdered his clan.

Imagine if the HashMan had seen Itachi convinced by Danzo to murder his whole clan.  Would have have said the same thing?  Would he have said that Itachi was brave, a good shinobi at all?  Or would he have cursed Itachi's folly for believing the situation was a binary "kill them all, or more will die"?  

The answer is obvious.  Itachi was a fool.  He made the same mistake Sasuke makes later by trying to "bear all the hatred"

Itachi's methods contributed to the cycle of hatred rather than ended it.  And he killed babies.  Hashi wouldn't ever consider a baby/mother/child killer to be any kind of hero, or anyone worth looking up to.  Hokage reasoning? hahaha...maybe before he murdered children, but not after.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> You _honestly_ think that?



Rocky, first you need to understand one very critical fact: *Naruto didn't need the Fox to be the chosen one.* Internalize that. Secondly, look at what made the idea form:



Next, we see that Kushina objects. A very fair objection. 



I agree with POW. Minato's flaw was that he wasn't around. He could have prevented everything if he were around. But he *chose* not to be around. Rather than endure as a shinobi.

When post-death Minato frequently apologized for not being there, it wasn't a token apology. He was apologizing for choosing not to be there, and the consequences that choice had on everybody.​


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Itachi's methods contributed to the cycle of hatred rather than ended it.



Actually, Danzo's solution would have ended the cycle. Itachi prolonged the cycle purely because _he spared one child_. Sasuke. So in a sense, your argument only validates Danzo's reasoning.

Additionally, just like how we're supposed to ignore the fact that Minato left Konoha and baby Naruto defenseless against Obito returning the next day, we're supposed to just kind of _go with it_.​


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Actually, Danzo's solution would have ended the cycle. Itachi prolonged the cycle purely because _he spared one child_. Sasuke. So in a sense, your argument only validates Danzo's reasoning.
> ​



The difference is similar to categorical reasoning vs consequential reasoning.

*Hashirama*: an action can be inherently wrong.  Murdering innocents outside of combat or war is never acceptable.
*Danzo*: the consequences of the actions determine whether it was wrong or right.  If you kill them all, there won't be an uprising, and the village won't be in a weakened state.

Hashirama's view (and Hiruzen, and Naruto, and Jiraiya) is that such an act is *inherently unacceptable*, and that it wouldn't result in true peace.  Meaning, the answer to "incomplete genocide" isn't "complete genocide."  

Itachi was soloed by Danzo's rhetorical skills.

and I agree with you about Minato being dumb for letting himself die.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> Hashirama's view (and Hiruzen, and Naruto, and Jiraiya) is that such an act is *inherently unacceptable*, and that it wouldn't result in true peace.



You're projecting your personal philosophies onto the ninja world, which is substantially more comfortable with killing, as all ninja are paid to assassinate _people they don't know_.

The white knight heroism that Naruto brings to the table is a naive illusion, pure and simple. It's only because the manga was made for kids that the author catered situations so Naruto would never have to deal with distasteful killing. You can bet Hashirama, Hiruzen, and Jiraiya did their fair share and were paid for it too. Because the ninja system caters to murder for coin. Not murder for morality.

And it's ultimately that system (the shinobi system in Konoha) that Itachi was loyal to, and he protected it within the moral confines of that era and location, which are susbstantially different from those of our modern world. Was what he did objectively right? There is no objective right. Morality is relative. It's pointless to bring your own morality into this argument, because it's beside the point.

e.g. infanticide in Inuit culture was acceptable, because they didn't have birth control and it was frequent for them to lack food. There's nothing "inherently unacceptable" about it. Drowning your baby was a mercy to it as opposed to having it starve to death. In the ninja world, _where the author makes a point to say that Itachi is too gentle and kind to be a ninja_, killing children is not unacceptable.​


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## Ersa (Jun 29, 2015)

If you really want to dumb it down, in simple terms Itachi killed a hundred people to save thousands of innocent lives. I mean if it really came down to it, characters like Hashirama and Hiruzen would choose to kill off a war-hungry clan with a history of turning on the village (Madara, Nine-Tails attack) rather then risk the safety of their civilians who have done nothing wrong.

How you view the situation kind of banks on do the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Rocky, first you need to understand one very critical fact: *Naruto didn't need the Fox to be the chosen one.* Internalize that.



He _needed_ the power of Kurama to stop the destruction that the masked man would bring in the future, or so was Minato's prediction.

And Minato was right.



Strategoob said:


> Secondly, look at what made the idea form:
> 
> Next, we see that Kushina objects. A very smart objection.



_Smart?_

She's asking why Minato would "sacrifice" his son to save the village and country (and *world*). It was a ridiculous question. 

This is incredible. You _really_ think that Minato would take his own life simply because of Kushina was going to lose hers, even though doing so would peg Minato as a hypocrite because he'd be abandoning the village, which was the _very thing_ he scolded Kushina for suggesting he do?



Strategoob said:


> When post-death Minato frequently apologized for not being there, it wasn't a token apology. He was apologizing for choosing not to be there, and the consequences that choice had on everybody.



I don't think you're recalling what happened correctly. Minato never apologized for choosing to die. He was getting down on himself for not recognizing Obito and failing to deal with Obito's shit in another way.

Kurama told him to knock it off because_ his death wasn't his fault_ and Naruto had grown into the saviour Minato was confident he'd become.


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're projecting your personal philosophies onto the ninja world, which is substantially more comfortable with killing, as all ninja are paid to assassinate _people they don't know_.​



You've said this before, that people are projecting their local sense of morality.  This is a very easy claim for you to make, but wrong in this case. It's obvious that Naruto believes you should never hurt the innocent.  His whole ideal is to protect his family.  And Naruto's sense of family encompasses the whole world, not just Village Hidden in the XXXXXX.

And keep in mind that while this is SET in a feudal time, Kishimoto wrote it 100% with his own sense of morality oozing throughout the whole thing.  Kishi clearly has a moral framework that his Good Guys follow.  And key among their values is the protection of the truly innocent.  That's why Naruto loves his friends and family dearly, and accepts even his WORST enemies as "the coolest people" once they change their opinion.  That's why he ended up liking and forgiving Nagato and Obito.  It was only those who he couldnt convince that he fought to the death.  And he didn't even kill them...



The shinobi villages are mercenary corporations, yes.  But your statement: 


Strategoob said:


> The white knight heroism that Naruto brings to the table is a naive illusion, pure and simple. It's only because the manga was made for kids that the author catered situations so Naruto would never have to deal with distasteful killing.


is actually you forcing YOUR system of relative morality on the series...a series that clearly glorifies and focuses on the heroic morality of Kishimoto/Hashirama/Naruto so heavily that it's sometimes hard to breathe through the generalizations, platitudes, and PTF-worthy statements.  Your'e adding layers of interpretation that aren't intended.



Strategoob said:


> And it's ultimately that system (the shinobi system in Konoha) that Itachi was loyal to, and he protected it within the moral confines of that era and location, which are susbstantially different from those of our modern world. Was what he did objectively right? There is no objective right. Morality is relative.



I agree with you that morality is relative.  But I'm really arguing from their philosophy, not my own.  

He protected the broken system that Naruto strove his whole life to replace.  He protected the worst aspects of Village system.  He was the tool of an old moral relativist, Danzo.  

The manga itself clearly has a moral perspective- you can fight defending yourself or the ones you love, but you don't go on wars of conquest or commit genocide.  It's very clear throughout the manga.  *Naruto winning at all in the end is really Kishimoto telling you that Naruto's philosophy won.*


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

Minato "predicted" Naruto needed the Fox the moment his wife was dying. Whether that prediction was true in the absolute sense or not can't be known, because Naruto never developed without it.

I'd wager that Minato raising Naruto and preventing the Uchiha massacre would be a good first step in delaying if not outright preventing Obito's plans from reaching completion, especially since Minato had already permanently marked Obito.

But that's essentially an alternate universe that would play out in an entirely different way. All we know is that Minato's prediction was stimulated with him being crushed over his wife's impending death.

And if you step away from the plot and really look at the decision, it was _terrible_. Nobody but them knew of Obito. Baby Naruto went to an orphanage and was virtually unguarded. 

Obito could have stolen him back no problem. Additionally, Naruto also walked the razor-line of ending up like p1 Gaara. Iruka's kindness was a second stroke of luck.

And the third stroke of luck was Itachi being born to keep Obito away from Konoha a little longer (but I guess plot would've done that anyway) to prevent Naruto from being kidnapped.

So from a realistic standpoint, Kushina's objection was absolutely smart. But at this point, it looks like the "flawless Minato" archtype is more his fans sticking their fingers in their ears.​


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2015)

This is you trying to sell me that it was coincidence that Minato put the fox in Naruto, called him the "savior," and said that he'd stop Obito, and Naruto ended up mastering the power of the fox, becoming the savior, and stopping Obito.

_Total_ coincidence.  

Minato's death was a necessary sacrifice, which would be why the Nine-Tails, who was kinda there for the whole thing, assured him that it _wasn't_ his fault and that he was correct to have been so confident of what Naruto would accomplish back when Minato made Naruto a jinchuriki.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

thechickensage said:


> The manga itself clearly has a moral perspective- you can fight defending yourself or the ones you love, but you don't go on wars of conquest or commit genocide.  It's very clear throughout the manga.  *Naruto winning at all in the end is really Kishimoto telling you that Naruto's philosophy won.*



This conversation's too deep for my taste, but I will say this: if Kishimoto had fleshed out the morality aspect to its completion, Naruto would _abolish_ the ninja system. 

​


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 29, 2015)

More Hype Panels
*Spoiler*: __ 






*Madara Scared of Minato*


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## thechickensage (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> This conversation's too deep for my taste, but I will say this: if Kishimoto had fleshed out the morality aspect to its completion, Naruto would _abolish_ the ninja system.



Haha, I was completely sure that Naruto would abolish the ninja system as well...and I was pretty disappointed that Naruto's solution to the world was to leave all the bureaucracy and political structures, and just be a great role model 

But since most of the debates were philosophical in nature, and since most of the baddies were talk no jutsu-ed into believing in Naruto's worldview, I think Kishi's intent was to say that Naruto was correct.


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## Bookworm (Jun 29, 2015)

@Rocky:

If Minato had the greatest potential of any shinobi than his decision to sacrifice himself was a bad one, because he could of just spent the next decade and a half training hard to become much stronger, finally reaching his prime. The Chosen One was said to be Jiraiya's student, for all Minato knew he himself could of been the Chosen One. Also Minato had Obito tagged he literally could of killed him immediately if he fought him again. Minato decision wasn't the best in hindsight.


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## Rocky (Jun 29, 2015)

He (somehow) knew that Naruto was the child of prophecy, and it was not himself. I do not understand how making Naruto a Jinchuriki is a bad decision when Naruto saved the world because of his connection to Kurama & the biju.


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

Rocky is right; as in, Kishimoto clearly intended for Minato's sacrifice to be the right decision and to be viewed as such. Any extra analysis that the readers do is their own business, but doesn't negate this simple fact. And last I checked this thread was concerned with author portrayal and not fan-made portrayal, so.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

I'm arguing an interpretation of portrayal. Naruto's orphaned childhood, abandoned by his parents, was a big point in p1. Minato having the choice to put Naruto through that is significant.

Sasuke and Naruto are the two main characters, and being orphans was the major similarity they had. Minato and Itachi compare and contrast in their ways of bringing that about.

As Itachi's greatest hype is taken from the fact that he continued living, endured his family's death, and continued to protect Konoha, it can be sharply contrasted with Minato, as Minato did the opposite. 

Itachi's mistake was not having faith in others, enduring everything himself, and not taking chances (Koto.) Minato's mistake was having _too much faith_ in a completely unguarded infant.

Yes, it worked out. But luck was a factor. A huge factor considering there's zero reason Obito couldn't return to easily steal infant Naruto from the orphanage (he already stole him from Minato himself.)​


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> *I'm arguing an interpretation of portrayal.* Naruto's orphaned childhood, abandoned by his parents, was a big point in p1. Minato having the choice to put Naruto through that is significant.​



So... you're own fan-made portrayal.

Your choice as this is your thread however I'd caution that it will detract and possibly even distort the discussion concerning the actual manga-canon which I would think the focus should be on, but eh.​


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> So... you're own fan-made portrayal.



No. I've been offering a connection of portrayal to POW's point. Minato said his failure was his death (as opposed to continue living.) How a ninja dies defines them. Minato chose his death. Hence...

Additionally, the author has clearly not portrayed Minato as perfect like many (somehow?) think. He admitted his mistakes like Itachi, and was additionally talked down to by his enemies and allies alike. 

Therefore, to say Minato kept a constant, universal "Mr. Perfect" image is wrong. Nor did he keep his "ace" image, as he became increasingly goofy (which some view as idiotic) like Jiraiya/Naruto.





​


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## StickaStick (Jun 29, 2015)

No one I believe has asserted that Minato was perfect (to my knowledge, at least), however where the fan-made portrayal comes in is when one attempts to attribute failures and mistakes to him that are clearly not done so by the content's author. The closest one can come to making this case is Minato's lamenting of his early death but this stops well short of any kind of assertion that the decision Minato made ultimately was the wrong one. 

As you stated both admitted to their failures and thus any chastising that might be done is window dressing at that point. If anything, I would add that the difference is that Minato found himself confronting those who he felt he let down (e.g., Obito, mainly, and Kakashi) while Itachi was only really held accountable to Sasuke and Sasuke was too blinded by his love for him to take him to task.


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## Ersa (Jun 29, 2015)

As the original Minato fan, Tobirama the scientist of Konoha called Minato mentally challenged. Even some who despises Gaara can accept this.


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## GilgameshXFate (Jun 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No. I've been offering an interpretation to POW's point. Minato said his failure was his death. How a ninja dies defines them according to Jiraiya. Minato chose his death. Hence...
> 
> Additionally, the author has clearly not portrayed Minato as perfect like many (somehow?) think. He admitted his mistakes like Itachi, and was additionally talked down to by his enemies and allies alike.
> 
> ...



I don't know Jiraiya, Ei, Kakashi, and Naruto himself seemed to think he was the Perfect Ninja. He was so perfect Madara himself didn't have the balls to cross him. 

Also I didn't see Hagoromo hype Itachi any


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## Sadgoob (Jun 29, 2015)

StickaStick said:


> No one I believe has asserted that Minato was perfect (to my knowledge, at least)



The original point I was responding to, and the genesis of the point you critiqued, was based off the argument that Minato fit the "Mr. Perfect" trope while Itachi only fit "the Ace" trope.

Both have admitted flaws, and I was postulating what Minato meant when saying his death was his failure. Regardless of whether you agree with the specific interpretation of that instance, the overarching point of Minato's lack of complete perfection stands.​


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## StickaStick (Jun 30, 2015)

Strat you're killing me with all this editing  I'm editing my post to respond to something different each time I preview it. I'll stick with this for the time being since my intention in supporting Rocky's point was not to get involved in the dick-measuring contest the Itachi- and Minato- fans are having here.
=============

I don't believe I critiqued any points, directly at least, so much so as added credence to the point that Rocky was making 

But fair enough.


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## thechickensage (Jun 30, 2015)

They both were near-perfect ninjas, both of them were failures for different reasons (Itachi for killing his clan, Minato for getting himself killed), both had amazing hype, but only Minato was trolled in his afterlife.  Itachi had a great ending, whereas Minato got his dumb arms cut off and had to hop around like a chipmunk with a knife in his mouth.  

Basically, Minato was a waste of a death, and Itachi was a waste of a life.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Without going into the mess that was the final stages of the war arc, I don't think it is.  Like I mentioned, Minato's failures were mostly indirect failures, while Itachi's were more direct.
> 
> Minato's failure speech was that he died.  If he had lived, maybe he could have averted the disaster.
> 
> ...


There is actually no guarantee that Minato could have done the things he said he could. 
It is easy to say "maybe I could have done this or that."
So you'r basing this off a speculative remark by Minato. 

And Minato has never faced the hardship Itachi faced and Itachi actually never failed directly. The only time his plan seemed not to work was when Obito threw a wrench in them, which Itachi anticipated.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 30, 2015)

> He could not bare a life without Kushina.



So he'd seal Kushina away inside Naruto for an indeterminable amount of years where they'd live in isolation, while he himself lived for eternity without her in the death god's stomach.

No.

Both of them sacrificed their lives, but we get a split again.  Minato gave his life, but in doing so entrusted the world to Naruto.  He left hope, and he trusted in Naruto and the future.

Itachi died to protect Konoha, but mainly Sasuke.  His final act was to seal Ameterasu into Sasuke's head while leaving him in the dark.  Again, he tried to do everything himself, without trusting Sasuke or anyone else.  That plan backfired and made Sasuke even more crazy.  Ultimately he did trust Sasuke to make his own decisions, but then Sasuke went off to become Darkness Candidate 2016.  He also trusted Naruto to fix Sasuke, which was better.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is actually no guarantee that Minato could have done the things he said he could.
> It is easy to say "maybe I could have done this or that."
> So you'r basing this off a speculative remark by Minato.
> 
> And Minato has never faced the hardship Itachi faced and Itachi actually never failed directly. The only time his plan seemed not to work was when Obito threw a wrench in them, which Itachi anticipated.



Itachi said maybe if he had trusted Sasuke he could have averted the massacre.  The reason Itachi trusted Naruto to save save Sasuke is because Naruto learned his lesson about trusting others, and had people to support him - because he had the thing Itachi lacked in life.



> So you'r basing this off a speculative remark by Minato.



No?  Where are you getting that from?  Did you forget everything else I wrote when you disagreed with this one aspect?



			
				Myself said:
			
		

> Hiruzen saying that Orochimaru never would have invaded if Minato was around, but he wasn't. Obito chastising him for not being there to save him or Rin.



In the Orochimaru case, Orochimaru says himself that he wouldn't have moved on Konoha is Minato was around.

In the Rin and Obito case, do you honestly think Minato couldn't have soloed Rock Fodder and that Mist Squad?



			
				Me said:
			
		

> From what he and the characters around him said, Minato's greatest flaw seems to have been dying young, and not living on to fulfill the aspirations they had of him.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 30, 2015)

I'll summarize the failing speech lists.

Hashirama - Too much of a dreamer, failed to properly end Madara like he thought he did.
Tobirama - Accidentally fostered isolation and resentment in the Uchiha through his policies.
Hiruzen - Was too nice and indulgent.  As such, left the darker dealing to Danzo, who decided policy by the amount of babies he could sacrifice to Konoha.
Minato - Died during the Kyuubi attack.  Wasn't present to clean up the failings of the previous kage.

Itachi - Didn't trust in Sasuke or others.  As such, resorted to the Danzo solution.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In actuality, I view this more by their archetypes, than by individual statements of hype.  Itachi is the ace, while Minato is Mr. Perfect.





"Mr. Perfect." 

"Only failure was dying."



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> In the Orochimaru case, Orochimaru says himself that he wouldn't have moved on Konoha is Minato was around.



Do you know where this was said?



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> That plan backfired and made Sasuke even more crazy.



Obito revealing the truth made Sasuke crazy. Nothing "backfired." Itachi anticipated Obito's actions, and the Amaterasu failed to kill Obito. But he anticipated that possibility too. And Kotoamatsukami resulted in Naruto's life being saved and Kurama being stolen. Minato's success depended on Itachi.

Moreover, you're being disingenuous in implying Minato's success was the result of wisdom and not luck. Naruto himself said, several times throughout the manga, that due to his own rough childhood, him and Sasuke could easily be in reversed positions. Naruto wasn't initially targeted by Orochimaru or Obito.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 30, 2015)

My analyses is _based on_ discerning types of failures.



> Where is this said?



Somewhere during the Hiruzen battle, and Anko and Hiruzen mention it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My analyses is _based on_ discerning types of failures.
> 
> 
> 
> Somewhere during the Hiruzen battle, and Anko and Hiruzen mention it.



I think they only mentioned that Minato could stand up to Orochimaru if he was still alive.
It was implied that Minato was stronger than Hiruzen.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> My analyses is _based on_ discerning types of failures.



My point being, he acknowledged that he failed an enormous number of times.

So "Mr. Perfect" is inaccurate.

He was also called foolish like Naruto, as a joke by the author.

So the do-no-wrong image in your head is outdated.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Somewhere during the Hiruzen battle, and Anko and Hiruzen mention it.



No. Anko said,

"If only the fourth was here."

Hiruzen said,

"Don't say that. He already gave his life for the village once."


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

Pirate-kun made an interesting observation. Itachi tried to shoulder everything by himself. And lived most of his life in isolation. Only after he died the admission came - maybe I should have chosen the other way...

Minato was the opposite - global recognition, bonds, teamwork, family, stealing old people's jutsu legacy. But he was forced to make a choice - between losing his life partner but getting an opportunity to fix this mess by himself(and thus going closer to Itachi's road) and leaving a legacy which should have more chances to fix his mess than he had(in theory at least...). And we know what he chose. But he was still having doubts about that choice post resurrection. 

They both kinda messed up. But not really. Minato's way is closer to the correct one in Kishi's verse(Teamwork, Asura, Naruto, Will of Fire, etc). But Itachi gets more individual praise I believe - with even Kishimoto himself calling him "too perfect" and stating that he'd rather aspire to be like Minato - the more realistic goal. That was in one of previous interviews iirc. It's like Itachi was so good that even with the "wrong" way of doing things he eventually managed to come on top in a sense. A true King of Solo. 

Overall I consider them both equals in terms of pure hype. Picking one over another is mostly about personal preferences imo. So - Kakashi da best.


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## Six (Jun 30, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> My point being, he acknowledged that he failed an enormous number of times.
> 
> So "Mr. Perfect" is inaccurate.
> 
> ...



In all honesty, I'm pretty sure Hiruzen thought Minato could beat Orochimaru as well.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Alex said:
			
		

> Itachi tried to shoulder everything by himself. And lived most of his life in isolation. Only after he died the admission came - maybe I should have chosen the other way...
> 
> Minato was the opposite



Definitely. But Trusting an unguarded/isolated infant is the opposite extreme. 



Law Trafalgar said:


> In all honesty, I'm pretty sure Hiruzen thought Minato could beat Orochimaru as well.



I agree, but I'm just saying what was said. It was hardly hype.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

He left Naruto to Hiruzen and Jiraiya. And basically the whole village. He wanted Naruto to be considered a hero. Too bad Konoha was full of dickheads and J-Man didn't bother much until Naruto became a full-fledged ninja.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Yes, but Minato's reasoning was essentially:

1. This masked man is way too strong
A. Granted, I could probably kill him now that he's marked.
B. _But_ Naruto's the chosen one. Jiraiya. Prophecy.

2. I'll die to give him more power.
A. Hopefully the masked man doesn't return until Naruto's grown.
B. Hopefully Hiruzen/Jiraiya got this without knowing about the threat.

It was, objectively speaking, _too much faith_. Yes it worked out. But it wouldn't have without a great deal of luck (Iruka,) or even specifically Itachi's lack of faith in all others, which is why he set the Koto trap.


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## Alex Payne (Jun 30, 2015)

That's how Kishiverse works. Naruto is the Chosen One so everything including Itachi played perfectly for him to reach that world-changing stage. And make a choice(Kishimoto kinda forgot about that one). Maybe Minato understood on some level that simply supporting Chosen One as much as possible is the way to go. Silly shit, but still.


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## Bloo (Jun 30, 2015)

TheGreen1 said:


> Itachi was great, no doubt about that. But Iwa had a flee on sight order against Minato. That kinda Hype is just undeniable.


That's irrelevant given Itachi wasn't in wartime as a shinobi, which would cut off any opportunity for him to be given one. Not saying that Minato's feat of that order isn't impressive, I'm simply stating it's not a fair comparison.


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## Umbrella (Jun 30, 2015)

> n all honesty, I'm pretty sure Hiruzen thought Minato could beat Orochimaru as well





Strategoob said:


> I agree, but I'm just saying what was said. It was hardly hype.



In all honesty, we have absolutely no basis to believe that.
You'd have to really reach to make that statement mean that.


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## Sadgoob (Jun 30, 2015)

Umbrella said:


> In all honesty, we have absolutely no basis to believe that.
> You'd have to really reach to make that statement mean that.



The statement itself implies stalemate.

But Orochimaru was Hiruzen's favorite student.

I base Minato > Orochimaru based not on that, but my collective interpretation.


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