# Itachi vs. Madara (taijutsu)



## trance (May 8, 2014)

Location: Chunin Exams Finals Arena

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 5m

Rules: No ninjutsu or genjutsu. Both are alive. Itachi is healthy. This is EMS Madara.

Bonus: Itachi has Ei level chakra levels.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2014)

Which Madara


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## Bonly (May 8, 2014)

Madara beats the shit out of Itachi


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 8, 2014)

I say Madara takes this handily, he is much faster than Itachi and has fought SM users in cqc before.


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## Rocky (May 8, 2014)

I'll just assume it isn't Rikudō Madara. 

Rinnegan Madara does indeed beat the shit out of Itachi. His showing against Sage Naruto is enough for me.


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## tkpirate (May 8, 2014)

yeah,Madara will win easily.


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## ueharakk (May 8, 2014)

edo madara wins.

He's shown greater speed, greater reactions, and greater strength + durability.


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## Kyu (May 8, 2014)

EMS Madara wins once Itachi is exhausted.

SM Rinnegan Madara beats the shit out of Itachi(as the others have so elegantly stated).

Juubi Jin Madara-.......See his skirmish vs Sage Minato


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## Krippy (May 8, 2014)

EMS Madara?

He just outlasts. Shodai and Sasuke did fine against him so Itachi would just get worn down and laid out


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## IchLiebe (May 8, 2014)

Krippy said:


> EMS Madara?
> 
> He just outlasts. Shodai and *Sasuke did fine against him* so Itachi would just get worn down and laid out



When did that happen?


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## Risyth (May 8, 2014)

Seriously don't think Itachi was ever known for his taijutsu skills.


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## Nikushimi (May 8, 2014)

Itachi vs. base Madara could go either way; might favor Madara a bit just because Madara.

SM Madara would stomp.

Juubi Jinchuuriki would rip Itachi in half with his penis.


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## Nikushimi (May 9, 2014)

Risyth said:


> Seriously don't think Itachi was ever known for his taijutsu skills.





The guy is just .5 short of a perfect score in the databooks and is consistently shown flipping around like an acrobat or casually slapping them silly whenever he's beating someone's ass.

Yes, he is VERY skilled at Taijutsu.

He took on KCM Naruto and Killer B unarmed and without using the MS and came out of it unscratched.


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## trance (May 9, 2014)

This is EMS Madara btw. Ok. Changing the matchup a bit.


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## crisler (May 9, 2014)

If this is EMS Madara than I don't see how the battle is one-sided. Frankly, I just see both of them as  taijutsu of top tiers, but nothing significantly impressive. All high tiers basically have roughly the same taijutsu skills.

If this is anything other than EMS Madara (bar cripple), then...Itachi is lost.


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## Jad (May 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> The guy is just .5 short of a perfect score in the databooks and is consistently shown flipping around like an acrobat or casually slapping them silly whenever he's beating someone's ass.
> 
> Yes, he is VERY skilled at Taijutsu.
> 
> He took on KCM Naruto and Killer B unarmed and without using the MS and came out of it unscratched.



Niku....

You know what I'm thinking


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## Nikushimi (May 9, 2014)

Bonus Scenario Itachi chokeslams Madara to pulp.


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## Nikushimi (May 9, 2014)

Jad said:


> Niku....
> 
> You know what I'm thinking


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## Krippy (May 9, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> When did that happen?



It was blind SM Madara but it shouldn't be much different.


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## Jad (May 9, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


>



That's how we do it.


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## Veracity (May 9, 2014)

EMS Madara still blitzes the hell out of ITCAHI casually as he basically did to SM Naruto.


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## ARGUS (May 9, 2014)

Any form of Madara is superior to itachi when it comes to taijutsu,,,, he wins this


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## Vicotex (May 9, 2014)

Madara went against The God of taijustu (thou he barely outlast gai).
Itachi went up against Kcm nardo nd V2 bee (unscratche).
In taijutsu Gai>Naruto+Bee.
I'll give the belt to Maddy


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 9, 2014)

Itachi has more agility, Madara is probably more durable and stronger.
Could go eitherway really. 
I'd favor Itachi if he could access his weaponry.

Giving Itachi A level chakra is ridicilous imo. He'd definitely win.


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## Bkprince33 (May 9, 2014)

Imo it's a close match I think itachi is a bit more cunning, and tatical, but madara has more battle prowess. 


I'm giving madara this due to his feet of nearly soloing a allied ninja army.


killing of other Uchiha is impressive for itachi, but madara literally charged directly in front of a allied army and was trolling with just taijutsu


I think the data book will probably have mads and hashi with pretty much a perfect score.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 9, 2014)

Seriously?

This should be common sense by now that madara is superior in taijutsju let alone any other category over Itachi. Dont get me wrong its no stomp but itachi isnt going to win


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## Stermor (May 9, 2014)

madara is higher in every stat. even if skill would be similar madara's higher stats would give him te win.


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## ARGUS (May 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has more agility, Madara is probably more durable and stronger.
> Could go eitherway really.
> I'd favor Itachi if he could access his weaponry.
> 
> Giving Itachi A level chakra is ridicilous imo. He'd definitely win.



I personally think that Madara has A level chakra,, if not then even more than him,,,, 
his chakra levels are far greater than any other uchiha


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## Ghost (May 9, 2014)

In straight taijutsu brawl I'd think that Itachi's agility wouldn't trump Madara's strength and durability, but with ninja tools + taijutsu Itachi would take this.


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## IchLiebe (May 9, 2014)

Madara has shown good agility too. Right here and here are way better than what Itachi has shown in agility off the top of my head. He may have shown something close but I doubt anything is in Madara's league.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (May 9, 2014)

Madara breaks him down. Bigger stamina and better power showings and reflexes trump itachi. Itachi is the better acrobat though i will give him that.


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## IchLiebe (May 9, 2014)

blackguyinpinksuit said:


> Madara breaks him down. Bigger stamina and better power showings and reflexes trump itachi. Itachi is the *better acrobat* though i will give him that.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 9, 2014)

At this point it's sort of ridiculous to assume that Itachi is better than Madara at in any relevant area. Madara hasn't got the 'acrobatic' feats Itachi has, but for the most part, that's because he doesn't really need to dance around when he can brutally dismantle enemy formations from inside or nuke them with ninjutsu.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 9, 2014)

Madara has a more perfect dojutsu (which, as he implied when analyzing Sasuke's fighting style, does make a difference) and he seems to edge out Itachi in reflexes even without that. He  seems to edge out Itachi in base speed. He is certainly physically stronger than him. He seems to edge him out in durability and endurance. And his taijutsu is definitely top notch, while Itachi, while near the top base tiers, is not at _the_ top. The only way Madara is not better than Itachi here is in stamina, but that's just because it's been artificially equalized. But normally that is the biggest gap by far. Madara seems to be superior in every relevant category here.


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## Jagger (May 9, 2014)

Madara is probably more durable, more experienced with Taijutsu and he's got indeed very nice reflexes.

He perfectly blitzed SM Naruto while being _blind_, of course, this means he wasn't using his Sharingan to enhance his Taijutsu skills. Itachi is pretty good, he was holding his own against KM Naruto pretty well, but let's not forget Madara is a beast as well, not to mention he's probably skilled with ninja weapons as well as we saw, through different flashbacks, the usage of different weapons.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 9, 2014)

Isn't a perfect blitz one where the person being attacked is unable of raising any defense? Sai, despite the second one attacked, was unable to defend himself but Naruto did at least _block_. Naruto probably wasn't exactly expecting a seemingly blind man to launch such a straightforward attack though, so I have little doubt that played into the slowness of his reactions. Given that Madara is a decent sensor thanks to the original power he stole from Hasharima, and he does have an enormous chakra that combined a a nice portion of Hasharima's and his own clearly Bijuu level chakra, it follows that he would have an excellent Shunshin. I wouldn't be surprised if his maximum speed was a whole level above Ei's ordinary RnY Shunshin. Which, in my estimation, is more than a whole level above sage Naruto's base speed. Of course using it without dojutsu, or even eyes, sage sensing, or even top level regular sensing seemed a bit reckless, but he really had no other option but recklessness and the element of surprise at that point.


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## Jagger (May 9, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Isn't a perfect blitz one where the person being attacked is unable of raising any defense? Sai, despite the second one attacked, was unable to defend himself but Naruto did at least _block_. Naruto probably wasn't exactly expecting a seemingly blind man to launch such a straightforward attack though, so I have little doubt that played into the slowness of his reactions. Given that Madara is a decent sensor thanks to the original power he stole from Hasharima, and he does have an enormous chakra that combined a a nice portion of Hasharima's and his own clearly Bijuu level chakra, it follows that he would have an excellent Shunshin. I wouldn't be surprised if his maximum speed was a whole level above Ei's ordinary RnY Shunshin. Which, in my estimation, is more than a whole level above sage Naruto's base speed. Of course using it without dojutsu, or even eyes, sage sensing, or even top level regular sensing seemed a bit reckless, but he really had no other option but recklessness and the element of surprise at that point.


That is indeed truth. It wasn't a "perfect blitz" per se, but let's not forget this is SM Naruto we're talking about, he's a perfect Sage and, therebefore, his reflexes are on another level thanks to Senjutsu (thanks to this little thing, Madara was capable of dodging every single one of Sasuke's attacks), he was able to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attack just cm away from him and redirect his attack, even if he wasn't prepared for the attack, it's not his senses are less sharp than before. Sage Mode is about enhancing every single area (Ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, etc.).

SM Naruto was fighting against the man causant of all that is happening and the same man that struck down Hashirama and survived his own giant Rasenshuriken, I doubt Naruto was actually unprepared for any incoming attack or didn't expect him to do anything dangerous because that would be dumb. Besides, did Naruto know that Madara was blind at that time? After all, he questioned why Madara was capable of summoning Gedo Mazo with a _fake Rinnegan_ in the first place.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> That is indeed truth. It wasn't a "perfect blitz" per se, but let's not forget this is SM Naruto we're talking about, he's a perfect Sage and, therebefore, his reflexes are on another level thanks to Senjutsu (thanks to this little thing, Madara was capable of dodging every single one of Sasuke's attacks), he was able to dodge Sandaime Raikage's attack just cm away from him and redirect his attack, even if he wasn't prepared for the attack, it's not his senses are less sharp than before. Sage Mode is about enhancing every single area (Ninjutsu, genjutsu, taijutsu, etc.).
> 
> SM Naruto was fighting against the man causant of all that is happening and the same man that struck down Hashirama and survived his own giant Rasenshuriken, I doubt Naruto was actually unprepared for any incoming attack or didn't expect him to do anything dangerous because that would be dumb. Besides, did Naruto know that Madara was blind at that time? After all, he questioned why Madara was capable of summoning Gedo Mazo with a _fake Rinnegan_ in the first place.



That was Son Goku who thought the Rinnegan was still fake. Naruto had, very possibly from battle weariness, had kinda descended into a clueless and unobservant state again seeing as he never even bothered to think about the strangeness of Madara's words until that very moment and didn't understand why Madara was closing his eyes even though had he been paying strict attention, he would have seen his eyes crumble right in front of him. Furthermore, he evidently must have not been thinking about being prepared for Madara's attacks or else he would not have been simply standing there without any guard or jutsu prepared, especially since it seems that he couldn't use Kurama's chakra again yet. He had, after all, not really faced or even see that much of Madara's close quarters combat abilities at that point except pitted against fodder. 

I am not trying to underrate Madara's speed by undermining Naruto's senses, _but_ generally speaking, when someone is not actively engaged in combat and not expecting attack, they react a little more slowly and it really doesn't seem like Naruto was at his sharpest. But it's also possible Naruto didn't react slowly at all, but instead he merely underestimated Madara's physical strength, which was also probably derived from Hasharima so he thought a simple guard would be enough.


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## dof455 (May 9, 2014)

Itachi stomps.


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## Jagger (May 9, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> That was Son Goku who thought the Rinnegan was still fake. Naruto had, very possibly from battle weariness, had kinda descended into a clueless and unobservant state again seeing as he never even bothered to think about the strangeness of Madara's words until that very moment and didn't understand why Madara was closing his eyes even though had he been paying strict attention, he would have seen his eyes crumble right in front of him. Furthermore, he evidently must have not been thinking about being prepared for Madara's attacks or else he would not have been simply standing there without any guard or jutsu prepared, especially since it seems that he couldn't use Kurama's chakra again yet. He had, after all, not really faced or even see that much of Madara's close quarters combat abilities at that point except pitted against fodder.


Ah, my mistake. However, you can also see Naruto is in confusion and he questions why Madara should be capable of doing that and proceeds to make a logical reasoning that he was revived through Obito's Rinne Tensei like he tried in the past. He didn't know Madara was a zombie until the other Bijuu noticed it as well. 

That should further sharpen his instincts even further. If a man like Madara closes his eyes, he should be expecting the worst. Though, you have good points regarding Naruto's slow reaction.

Another thing to consider is that Naruto wasn't aware of Madara losing his eyes because the entire scene was interrupted by Sasuke's Amaterasu as they seemed to be surprised by that.

I'm not sure if Naruto couldn't use the Kyuubi's chakra, but it's true as well. He did use his Sage sensing to locate Madara in the battle (which is better than using Kurama's abilities since it allows him to sense emotions rather than exact location of someone).



> I am not trying to underrate Madara's speed by undermining Naruto's senses, _but_ generally speaking, when someone is not actively engaged in combat and not expecting attack, they react a little more slowly and it really doesn't seem like Naruto was at his sharpest. But it's also possible Naruto didn't react slowly at all, but instead he merely underestimated Madara's physical strength, which was also probably derived from Hasharima so he thought a simple guard would be enough.


You brought a good point, however, I find it a bit inadequate that Naruto lowered his defenses in front of a man such as Uchiha Madara. It's true he never saw his true potential before that, but he did know Madara defeated the 5 Kage at the same time (even though Naruto is way stronger than them, he still respects them quite a lot) and was struggling against one of Madara's wooden dragons.


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## Cognitios (May 9, 2014)

EMS Madara is tiers above Itachi in literally everything except maybe genjutsu, then they are probably about equal


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 9, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Ah, my mistake. However, you can also see Naruto is in confusion and he questions why Madara should be capable of doing that and proceeds to make a logical reasoning that he was revived through Obito's Rinne Tensei like he tried in the past. He didn't know Madara was a zombie until the other Bijuu noticed it as well.
> 
> That should further sharpen his instincts even further. If a man like Madara closes his eyes, he should be expecting the worst. Though, you have good points regarding Naruto's slow reaction.
> 
> ...



He didn't know Madara was no longer an Edo, no, but had he been paying close attention, Madara's eyes crumbling happened right in front of him _before_ Sasuke's Amaterasu hit. I agree that Naruto should have been expecting the worst, but he really didn't seem to be since otherwise, the extent of his preparation was...nothing. He didn't prepare a Rasengan to strike Madara with if he approached, he didn't prepare any Kage Bunshin, he didn't move to a fighting stance...nothing at all.

Which is foolish. Fortunately for our explanatory purposes, Naruto sometimes does foolish things, and he has been battling almost non-stop for a very long time now. Perhaps he was simply battle weary. I don't know. And it does seem to follow that he wouldn't be able to use Kurama's power quite yet. Every time he uses Kurama's power as much as he did when leading the final charge against Juubito, it takes him awhile to recover it. So he shouldn't have had access to Kurama's power, which was his fallback against Edo Madara's attacks up until this point, yet he still made no preparations.

I am pretty sure that sage Naruto just wasn't prepared for attack.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has more *agility*, Madara is probably more durable and stronger.





Alive Madara is much, much faster than Itachi on account of moving so quickly that Sage Naruto only had enough time to block the blow - and yet, even a shinobi that physically powerful was still thrown aside from the force of the attack. 

Which means if Itachi goes up to confront Madara, he gets ripped apart. I have zero clue where you're getting 'better agility' from.



> Giving Itachi A level chakra is ridicilous imo. He'd definitely win.



What exactly would giving Itachi that much chakra accomplish? Madara already has those reserves in spades. It wouldn't change anything, is what I'm saying.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 10, 2014)

Rinnegan Madara (revived) would ultimately demolish Itachi. 

Itachi might be able to hold his own for 2-3 minutes, but Madara's agility/speed are monstrous compared to most shinobi. Only people like Current Naruto/Current Sasuke/Gated Gai/Hashirama/Juubi Jins would take him down or stand any chance...


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Only people like Current Naruto/Current Sasuke/Gated Gai/Hashirama/Juubi Jins would take him down or stand any chance...



Taijutsu match? I'm fairly certain that both Raikage, B, Bijū Mode (or Bijū Sage) Naruto, and Tsunade are breaking Madz in two.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Taijutsu match? I'm fairly certain that both Raikage, B, Bijū Mode (or Bijū Sage) Naruto, and Tsunade are breaking Madz in two.



Taijutsu and kenjutsu, yeah.
I feel like Madara would defeat those combatants with varying amounts of difficulty.

Various factors:
- Does B get his cloak from V1 or V2?
- Do Ei and Raikagenaut have Raiton no Yoroi?
- Can Naruto do partial transformations?

If that's not the case, Rinnegan Madara defeats every one of those guys.


Tsunade just... gets humiliated, unless she's granted her abilities from Byakugou.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Taijutsu and kenjutsu, yeah.
> I feel like Madara would defeat those combatants with varying amounts of difficulty.



Are you giving Madara a sword?



> - Does B get his cloak from V1 or V2?
> - Do Ei and Raikagenaut have Raiton no Yoroi?



I was including the cloaks, but it doesn't matter. They're too durable to be damaged by Madara. I suppose Base B is questionable, but he has his 7 sword dance.



> - Can Naruto do partial transformations



It doesn't matter, not even for regular Bijū Mode. Naruto sent five mountain busters packing by running past them. What has Madara done.  



> Tsunade just... gets humiliated, unless she's granted her abilities from Byakugou.



Only if Madara get's a sword. Otherwise, what the hell does he do to her? Magatama barley did anything.


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## Deleted member 211714 (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Are you giving Madara a sword?



Gunbai or katana. 
Doesn't matter...



> I was including the cloaks, but it doesn't matter. They're too durable to be damaged by Madara. I suppose Base B is questionable, but he has his 7 sword dance.



Rinnegan Madara isn't far off from V2 Ei in speed, but the cloaks do cause some issues. 
Without cloaks, I feel like Rinnegan Madara is capable of defeating them.

Killer B gets defeated without his cloak, too. 
Madara is much faster and can match his style with a gunbai/katana.

Itachi didn't have many issues, and Madara is far superior to him.



> It doesn't matter, not even for regular Bijū Mode. Naruto sent five mountain busters packing by running past them. What has Madara done.



I'm sure Madara could do the same thing with his Susano'o. 
Only thing that stops his actual body is touching a Bijuudama with bare hands.
That's just really stupid. 

Edo Madara already dealt with Naruto (cloaked) quite easily, but Rinnegan Madara is faster and more brutal; he'd throw Naruto around like a ragdoll. 



> Only if Madara get's a sword. Otherwise, what the hell does he do to her? Magatama barley did anything.



He dances circles around Tsunade and chokeslams her.
If she tries to act persistent, he simply decapitates her; she can't ever touch him.

...and only a direct hit to his face would kill.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

King Itachi said:


> Rinnegan Madara isn't far off from V2 Ei in speed, but the cloaks do cause some issues.
> Without cloaks, I feel like Rinnegan Madara is capable of defeating them.



Why is Rinnegan Madara approaching v2 Raikage? Just for forcing SM Naruto to block?



> Killer B gets defeated without his cloak, too.
> Madara is much faster and can match his style with a gunbai/katana.
> 
> Itachi didn't have many issues, and Madara is far superior to him.



Itachi didn't beat B, he backed away. Madara may be able to beat Base B with his gunbai though; I'd like some more feats with it but meh.



> I'm sure Madara could do the same thing with his Susano'o.
> Only thing that stops his actual body is touching a Bijuudama with bare hands.
> That's just really stupid.



Wait what? Susano'o isn't fast or powerful enough.



> Edo Madara already dealt with Naruto (cloaked) quite easily, but Rinnegan Madara is faster and more brutal; he'd throw Naruto around like a ragdoll.



Edo Madara never fought Bijū Mode Naruto hand to hand. 

Rinnegan Madara is alot slower and far weaker; Naruto is like a buffed version of Raikage in that form.




> He dances circles around Tsunade and chokeslams her.



What? If he attempts to grab Tsunade he'd get ripped in half. The difference in physical strength is massive.


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 10, 2014)

I'm trying to think how Tsunade would defeat Rinnegan Madara in a taijutsu match? The man has speed Tsunade can't react to, durability to withstand her punch (if she gets him which is unlikely), doujutsu to read her movements, and strength to kill her as well.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Cheeky Nayrudo said:


> durability to withstand her punch



...No. Since when.



> and strength to kill her as well.



Which one of Madara's strength feats puts him on the level of being a physical threat to Tsunade.


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ...No. Since when.



Didn't he survive the Bijuus smacking him around?



> Which one of Madara's strength feats puts him on the level of being a physical threat to Tsunade.



He knocked a guarded-up SM Naruto down pre-SM, something a Bijuu-sized summon couldn't do. With SM his strength would be enhanced wouldn't it? He was about to go smack bijuus with his own hands, which his clone did for him afterward. Besides with his speed and pre-cog he could always aim for a vital spot to strike, not necessarily punch her til she gets worn down.


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## Rocky (May 10, 2014)

Cheeky Nayrudo said:


> Didn't he survive the Bijuus smacking him around?



With Sage Mode & Hashirama's regeneration, which I didn't know you were counting.

Though do note that none of the bijū strike with the concentrated force of Tsunade.



> He knocked a guarded-up SM Naruto down pre-SM, something a Bijuu-sized summon couldn't do. With SM his strength would be enhanced wouldn't it? He was about to go smack bijuus with his own hands, which his clone did for him afterward. Besides with his speed and pre-cog he could always aim for a vital spot to strike, not necessarily punch her til she gets worn down.



If he has his Sage Mode then never mind. His strength should be sufficient if it's anything like Naruto's.


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 10, 2014)

Ah I didn't know you weren't counting SM, since it was about Rinnegan Madara which he obtained after SM, sorry.

Non SM Madara wouldn't be enough to put her down like that, and he would have to go exclusively for vital points in that case.


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## fakkiha (May 10, 2014)

Itachi throws kunais at Madara's Rinnegans blinding him the same way he blinded those Nagato Summons with Rinnegan. Then his taijutsu will do the rest.


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## Cheeky Nayrudo (May 10, 2014)

You bring up excellent point, it would indeed turn out that way but unfortunately this is a taijutsu match with no ninja tools involved, so your post does not count


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## T-Bag (May 10, 2014)

EMS gives madara the edge in taijutsu


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## LeBoyka (May 10, 2014)

*Madara wins low-diff.*

Dude took out a good quarter of the shinobi alliance's forces with just taijutsu, in the middle of a desert (kinda hard to have good footwork on sand.). That's just one impressive feat, from a laundry list filled with bad-ass shit. 

Itachi? I've never really been impressed by his taijutsu. _Overrated in my opinion. _ Which is kinda how I feel about the character as a whole. But that's just me I guess.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 10, 2014)

Kifflom!! said:


> I personally think that Madara has A level chakra,, if not then even more than him,,,,
> his chakra levels are far greater than any other uchiha



I know. Thats why I thought it wasn't fair to artificially even the playground.


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## Jagger (May 10, 2014)

fakkiha said:


> Itachi throws kunais at Madara's Rinnegans blinding him the same way he blinded those Nagato Summons with Rinnegan. Then his taijutsu will do the rest.


Itachi's skills with ninja tools are nothing to be laughed at, yes. But let's remember Madara is a very mobile person that won't just stand there and let himself being attacked. 

Nagato's summons, on the other hand, while they're not slow, their eyes are much larger targets than a human's.


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## Antos (May 10, 2014)

Tell me is it really a feat to defeat fodder serious didn't Sasuke the guy with a 3.5 defeat like a 1000 rather easy?
Both having sharingan but I would have to give precog to Itachi (because of Kabuto's words) Agility Itachi, Power, Durablity, Speed to Madara. I give it to Madara but not by much.


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## Blu-ray (May 10, 2014)

You could give Itachi Ay level strength and speed as well. Itachi is still going to die. When you can blitz SM Naruto like nothing, you're not losing a Taijutsu fight to Itachi.



Antos said:


> Tell me is it really a feat to defeat fodder serious didn't Sasuke the guy with a 3.5 defeat like a 1000 rather easy?
> Both having sharingan but I would have to give precog to Itachi (because of Kabuto's words) Agility Itachi, Power, Durablity, Speed to Madara. I give it to Madara but not by much.



The Choku tomoe, unique to Sasuke and Madara, grants better precog. Whether that is EMS or something else entirely doesn't change the fact that Madara has it and Itachi doesn't, so Madara>Itachi when it comes to precog.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 10, 2014)

Madara is more skilled, so he'll eventually win. If not for the Ei level stamina, I don't think Itachi would last for long.


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## Ersa (May 11, 2014)

Funny how even without the Choku tomoe, Itachi reacted faster to Muki Tensei 

Madara isn't blitzing shit here but Itachi has no chance I feel. Their speed/skill is about even I'd say (maybe an edge to Madara) but Madara is just a tank with so much stamina he'll just never lose out.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 11, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Madara isn't blitzing shit here but Itachi has no chance I feel. Their speed/skill is about even I'd say



Itachi's speed is equal to a guy who moved so quickly that Sage Naruto had only enough time to block his attack?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Itachi's speed is equal to a guy who moved so quickly that Sage Naruto had only enough time to block his attack?



Implying Itachi wouldn't be able to do the same thing


----------



## Blu-ray (May 11, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Funny how even without the Choku tomoe, Itachi reacted faster to Muki Tensei
> 
> Madara isn't blitzing shit here but Itachi has no chance I feel. Their speed/skill is about even I'd say (maybe an edge to Madara) but Madara is just a tank with so much stamina he'll just never lose out.



I usually chock things like that up to the Itachi effect. Kishi can't have anyone outshining him now can he? Just look how Sasuke, who got his genius praised a chapter ago, looked like a lost child in that fight. Still, Sasuke's incompetence can't be passed along to Madara, as he was vastly better than that Sasuke anyway.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Implying Itachi wouldn't be able to do the same thing



He wouldn't. 

Care to prove your claim?


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## Ersa (May 11, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> I usually chock things like that up to the Itachi effect. Kishi can't have anyone outshining him now can he? Just look how Sasuke, who got his genius praised a chapter ago, looked like a lost child in that fight. Still, Sasuke's incompetence can't be passed along to Madara, as he was vastly better than that Sasuke anyway.


Feats a feat.

We can't pick and choose, else I could chalk everything up to the Naruto effect.


ATastyMuffin said:


> Itachi's speed is equal to a guy who moved so quickly that Sage Naruto had only enough time to block his attack?


You don't have to be equal to not get blitzed, VOTE Sasuke was able to handle and beat the shit out of KN0 Naruto despite the fact the latter was borderline blitzing him earlier. I know this is something you'll obviously disagree with but I feel Itachi's reflexes are better then SM Naruto's. I don't feel SM Naruto showed anything to suggest his reflexes are much better then say MS Sasuke. KCM most definitely but not SM and we saw that Itachi is superior to an early EMS user.

So yeah I don't think SM Madara can outright blitz Itachi but he'd crush him pretty easily. And for this match, it's EMS Madara who Itachi will have zero problem matching in taijutsu and speed. He'll get outlasted though.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 11, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Funny how even without the Choku tomoe, Itachi reacted faster to Muki Tensei



Who said he reacted faster? He underestimated Sasuke's superior tomoe Sharingan then said sorry for doing that. 



> Madara isn't blitzing shit here but Itachi has no chance I feel. Their speed/skill is about even I'd say (maybe an edge to Madara) but Madara is just a tank with so much stamina he'll just never lose out.



Why won't Madara, someone who was capable of blitzing SM Naruto, Sai whilst casually reacting to Tobirama's movements not going to blitz Itachi who was having a hard time blitzing the likes of Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi?


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (May 11, 2014)

Madara takes this. Better speed, strength, durability and precog.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 11, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Why won't Madara, someone who was capable of blitzing SM Naruto, Sai whilst casually reacting to Tobirama's movements not going to blitz Itachi who was having a hard time blitzing the likes of Hebi Sasuke and Kakashi?



He blitzed Sai, but he didn't blitz SM Naruto, who didn't even appear to be combat ready since he was just standing there with no guard against someone like Madara. The Tobirama part came later when Madara was in sage mode, so that's not the person Itachi is facing here.

In any case, Sasuke and Sage Naruto both have similar feats of outmaneuvering an RnY Raikage. I'd count Naruto's case as the better feat, but nonetheless, I don't think their reflexes are very different. Or Kakashi's reflexes, for that matter.


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## Veracity (May 11, 2014)

Itachi and Naruto have about the same reactions. Itachi is a bit better then MS Sasuke, and Sage Naruto was able to accomplish a far  more precise and complicated maneuver against a Kage just as fast as V1 Ay in contrast to MS Sasuke. 

With that being said, Itachi is in the same exact position Naruto is in; only able to form a block. And considering Madara was strong enough to toss a powerhouse like SM Naruto like a doll, he most likely breaks Itachis entire bone structure by making contact with him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 11, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> He wouldn't.
> 
> Care to prove your claim?



binding jutsu


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## Jagger (May 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> binding jutsu


And...? Itachi's a very fast and skilled shinobi in taijutsu as he was handling Hebi Sasuke quite well in said area, but that does not compare to SM Naruto.

SM Naruto, while lacking the Sharingan precog, has better senses and good reflexes as well.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 11, 2014)

Madara with no SM sensing and no Sharingan precognition handling a SM user >>>> Genjutsu Itachi with Sharingan precognition handling Genjutsu Hebi Sasuke.


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## ATastyMuffin (May 12, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> You don't have to be equal to not get blitzed



That's not what you said. You said Itachi is flat-out equal to Madara in sheer speed, meaning by extension, you also believe that Itachi is capable of almost blitzing Sage Naruto.

I don't have to tell you how *stupid* a claim that is, do I?



> I know this is something you'll obviously disagree with but I feel Itachi's reflexes are better then SM Naruto's. I don't feel SM Naruto showed anything to suggest his reflexes are much better then say MS Sasuke. KCM most definitely but not SM and we saw that Itachi is superior to an early EMS user.



Considering Sage Mode is what kept Tailed Beast Mode Naruto reacting to Obito in the first place, that's patently false, and you know it. 

Before you repeat the same tired argument you've done countless times before to no avail that that doesn't count because Naruto was in Tailed Beast Mode to begin with, I'd like you to prove that Sage Mode and Naruto's own reflexes (with the Nine-Tails' chakra) are _in any way_ connected.

It's not. The ability of sensing of Sage Mode and Naruto's enhanced reactions have absolutely _nothing_ to do with each other, because we even have a panel depicting Sage Mode, and *Sage Mode alone*, fully tracking Obito's high-speed movements. And as such, that is a far better feat than Itachi has ever managed.



> o yeah I don't think SM Madara can outright blitz Itachi but he'd crush him pretty easily. And for this match, it's *EMS Madara who Itachi will have zero problem matching in taijutsu and speed*. He'll get outlasted though.



I'm not sure if you realize this, but you do know that Madara, when alive, almost blitzed Sage Naruto *without* Hashirama's senjutsu, right?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> x



I can't tell if you're being facetious, but knowing past exchanges with you, this is probably an actual serious attempt at a rebuttal with an emoticon to try for light-heartedness just in case you need to save face when your laughable points gets shut down.

Because overwhelming Hebi Sasuke, heck, *Base* Hebi Sasuke is in no way comparable to a guy who was keeping up with a Raikage. Hebi Sasuke's best speed feat is what again?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Jagger said:


> And...? Itachi's a very fast and skilled shinobi in taijutsu as he was handling Hebi Sasuke quite well in said area, but that does not compare to SM Naruto.
> 
> SM Naruto, while lacking the Sharingan precog, has better senses and good reflexes as well.





ATastyMuffin said:


> I can't tell if you're being facetious, but knowing past exchanges with you, this is probably an actual serious attempt at a rebuttal with an emoticon to try for light-heartedness just in case you need to save face when your laughable points gets shut down.
> 
> Because overwhelming Hebi Sasuke, heck, *Base* Hebi Sasuke is in no way comparable to a guy who was keeping up with a Raikage. Hebi Sasuke's best speed feat is what again?




Sasuke with 3 tomoe and SM Naruto have comparable speed/reflexes/CQC prowess : 

An unstable force, lacking intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha!

*The Tailed Beast are but slaves to those with blessed eyes*.

An unstable force, lacking intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha!

*The Tailed Beast are but slaves to those with blessed eyes*.

So yes, Itachi tosses around SM Naruto like an infant. Especially if he catches him off guard like Madara did.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke with 3 tomoe and SM Naruto have comparable speed/reflexes/CQC prowess :
> 
> this
> 
> ...



1.) You're comparing Sasuke to a Naruto clone. Also, both dodging an attack from a Raikage ≠ an equality in close combat proficiency.

2.) Naruto is far stronger than Sasuke (speed/reflexes ≠ "CQC Prowess" ).

3.) Even if Itachi dodges Naruto's blow, he gets smashed anyway, remember?


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## ThunderCunt (May 12, 2014)

Madara should have it or atleast Madara Juubidara should easily have it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) You're comparing Sasuke to a Naruto clone. Also, both dodging an attack from a Raikage ≠ an equality in close combat proficiency.
> 
> 2.) Naruto is far stronger than Sasuke (speed/reflexes ≠ "CQC Prowess" ).
> 
> 3.) Even if Itachi dodges Naruto's blow, he gets smashed anyway, remember?



1 - Clones are the exact copy of the original and original naruto doesn't have better feats so I don't see how that is any relevant. And yes, their feats are almost identical. Their body/reaction speed is comparable. Neither of them are experts @ taijutsu, Naruto has his clones and SM enhancements and Sasuke has kenjutsu and is more agile overall.

2 - No he isn't. 

3 - It depends on how he dodges it. But I am solely going with the example of Itachi vs Sasuke, Itachi casually outmanuevered Sasuke and tossed him like a child. He'd do the same to Naruto, his SM enhancements doen'tt prevent that from happening.

So all in all, yes the likehood of Itachi outmanuvering an "off guard" SM Naruto is highly likely considering based on feats he'd be perfectly capable of doing the same to an on guard version.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - Clones are the exact copy of the original and original naruto doesn't have better feats so I don't see how that is any relevant. And yes, their feats are almost identical. Their body/reaction speed is comparable. Neither of them are experts @ taijutsu, Naruto has his clones and SM enhancements and Sasuke has kenjutsu and is more agile overall.



Clones aren't exact copies. That should've apparent when Madara stomped Shodai's clones sitting down, Tsunade smacked around Stage 3 Madaras with Susano'o, Kimimaro survived against KCM Naruto...need I go on?

Also, please tell me why Naruto isn't a taijutsu expert, and why Sasauke's kenjutsu makes up for Naruto's Sage enhancements.



> 2 - No he isn't.



I'll go first:

Launching a Rhino into midair with his bare hands.

Now you, Base Hebi Sasuke's best strength feat?



> 3 - It depends on how he dodges it. But I am solely going with the example of Itachi vs Sasuke, Itachi casually outmanuevered Sasuke and tossed him like a child. He'd do the same to Naruto, his SM enhancements doesn't prevent that.



Sasuke isn't SM Naruto, so it's a bad comparison. Sasuke also cannot hit people that dodge his punches, like Naruto can, so your example is bad all around.


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## Alex Payne (May 12, 2014)

What is this? SM Naruto dominates 3-tomoe Sasuke in CQC. His strength,  durability and natural energy aura put him on completely different level.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Neither of them are experts @ taijutsu


If SM Naruto isn't taijutsu expert... what kind of taijutsu specialist Itachi is? Amateur? Hobbyist?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Clones aren't exact copies. That should've apparent when Madara stomped Shodai's clones sitting down, Tsunade smacked around Stage 3 Madaras with Susano'o, Kimimaro survived against KCM Naruto...need I go on?


As far as I know clones are exact copies of the original with chakra limitations(because the chakra is divided between clones and the original). But I am not sure if it applies to physical attributes like speed, agility, strength or reflexes. Sometimes clones are off paneled and fodderized just because they are clones. There is no justification behind that.

Might be a different case for mass clones(hundreds or thousands). I am not sure.

As for the subject @ hand, if you have better feats from Naruto, we can go off through them, I am fine with it.



> Also, please tell me why Naruto isn't a taijutsu expert, and why Sasauke's kenjutsu makes up for Naruto's Sage enhancements.


What display of expert taijutsu does Naruto have ? Most of Naruto's "taijutsu" feats are his super strength, sensing and ghost punches. Which have absolutely nothing to do with taijutsu skill.

Because Sasuke's sword is equally deadly as a punch from Naruto. Much deadlier in most cases. 



> I'll go first:
> 
> Launching a Rhino into midair with his bare hands.
> 
> Now you, Base Hebi Sasuke's best strength feat?


What does strength have anything to do with it ?
Sasuke was never a strength oriented fighter. I am rpetty sure running his sword through his opponents skull would trump anything Naruto can do with his fists though.



> Sasuke isn't SM Naruto, so it's a bad comparison. Sasuke also cannot hit people that dodge his punches, like Naruto can, so your example is bad all around.



No its not. My example is pretty simple. It demonstrates Itachi's taijutsu skill, speed, reflexes and agility being clearly above sasuke's and sasuke overall is pretty much equal to Naruto in those areas. Strength and durability are non factors in that example. I am not arguing whether Itachi could defeat Naruto in a prolonged taijutsu match.



alex payne said:


> What is this? SM Naruto dominates 3-tomoe Sasuke in CQC.
> His strength,  durability and natural energy aura put him on completely different level.



I am mainly talking about speed and skill here.  But Sasuke has a sword that can do more damage to human sized targets than Naruto's punch, and it can easily penetrate Naruto. Strength and durability are irrelevant when comparing them.



> If SM Naruto isn't taijutsu expert... what kind of taijutsu specialist Itachi is? Amateur? Hobbyist?



Itachi isn't an expert. He is a tick below that. Naruto is a couple of ticks below given he doesn't have any outstanding taijutsu display.


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## Alex Payne (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am mainly talking about speed and skill here.  But Sasuke has a sword  that can do more damage to human sized targets than Naruto's punch, and  it can easily penetrate Naruto. Strength and durability are irrelevant  when comparing them.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> a sword  that can do more damage to human sized targets than Naruto's punch






Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi isn't an expert. He is a tick  below that. Naruto is a couple of ticks below given he doesn't have any  outstanding taijutsu display.



Masters a completely new taijutsu style which includes control of natural aura that surrounds the body. 

Not an expert.

Below someone who uses generic taijutsu style without specializing in it.

Right.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2014)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> He blitzed Sai, but he didn't blitz SM Naruto, who didn't even appear to be combat ready since he was just standing there with no guard against someone like Madara. The Tobirama part came later when Madara was in sage mode, so that's not the person Itachi is facing here.
> 
> In any case, Sasuke and Sage Naruto both have similar feats of outmaneuvering an RnY Raikage. I'd count Naruto's case as the better feat, but nonetheless, I don't think their reflexes are very different. Or Kakashi's reflexes, for that matter.



He got both of them. Naruto was in a state where sensing danger is easy, He was able to react last minute to someone as fast as an unamplified Ei. 
Madara still has sensing, which enabled him to sense someone as fast as Ei, who is probably faster than Tobirama and much faster than Itachi. You could generalise the Tobirama instance to an extent. 

Plus I don't think Naruto's reflexes = Sasuke's if the former's would be _rapidly enhanced_. Kakashi and Sasuke is probably debatable.

However I don't think anyone truly believes these guys (Sasuke and Kakashi) can rival SM users in terms of reflexes (unless the SM user has very crappy reflexes in base -- not the case with Naruto).


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Masters a completely new taijutsu style which includes control of natural aura that surrounds the body.
> 
> Not an expert.
> 
> ...



In my book taijutsu experts are people who completely specialize in it. People like Gai or Lee or A who have taijutsu movesets.

Naruto's taijutsu is as generic as it gets, despite the name. Although you can start off by showing Naruto's expert taijutsu feats. I might change my mind.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> In my book taijutsu experts are people who completely specialize in it. People like Gai or Lee or A who have taijutsu movesets.
> 
> Naruto's taijutsu is as generic as it gets, despite the name. Although you can start off by showing Naruto's expert taijutsu feats. I might change my mind.



Itachi isn't a Taijutsu expert, so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Itachi isn't a Taijutsu expert, so I don't understand the point you're trying to make.



I never said Itachi was a taijutsu expert. So yes, it is clear that you don't understand.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> As far as I know clones are exact copies of the original with chakra limitations(because the chakra is divided between clones and the original). But I am not sure if it applies to physical attributes like speed, agility, strength or reflexes. Sometimes clones are off paneled and fodderized just because they are clones. There is no justification behind that.



Clones seem to be inherently weaker that the original body. It's unexplained, but there are countless examples throughout the manga. I don't think a Hashirama clone would be off-paneled by sitting Madara if he retained his speed & skill, but maybe that's me.



> What display of expert taijutsu does Naruto have ? Most of Naruto's "taijutsu" feats are his super strength, sensing and ghost punches. Which have absolutely nothing to do with taijutsu skill.



..and what is your definition of skill? Naruto applies the Kawazu Kumite fighting style in battle. The invisible natural energy extensions that protrude from Naruto's body are just as much a "skill" of that style as the one-inch-punch is in Wing Chung, the roundhouse kick in Muay Thai, or the _Kuzushi _in Judo.



> Because Sasuke's sword is equally deadly as a punch from Naruto. Much deadlier in most cases.



Yes, but Sasuke's sword can be avoided (which is how Itachi beat it) while Naruto's particular style makes evasion incredibly difficult, if not impossible. 



> No its not. My example is pretty simple. It demonstrates Itachi's taijutsu skill, speed, reflexes and agility being clearly above sasuke's and sasuke overall is pretty much equal to Naruto in those areas. Strength and durability are non factors in that example. I am not arguing whether Itachi could defeat Naruto in a prolonged taijutsu match.



You're making the claim that Itachi can toss Naruto around like a toddler based on him outplaying Hebi Sasuke. 

Grimm, what do you think would happen if you tired to "toss" Mike Tyson around? It wouldn't work, because he's a hell of alot stronger than you are. If Itachi's putting his hands on Naruto, then strength comes into the equation– no questions asked.

Furthermore, since Itachi cannot _dodge_ Naruto's punches, there is no conceivable way for him to replicate his feat against Sasuke with Sage Naruto...so at this point, I'm not even sure what support there is for your claim.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Clones seem to be inherently weaker that the original body. It's unexplained, but there are countless examples throughout the manga. I don't think a Hashirama clone would be off-paneled by sitting Madara if he retained his speed & skill, but maybe that's me.


In some cases they are. And those cases are mostly the times when* mass clones* are used. By mass I mean the instances where Naruto spams countless clones.

When "Dat Clone" was getting focus, no one could be sure whether it was a clone or not, mainly because he didn't give the vibe that it was inferior in any way.

Also you don't question the things that happen in off panel. You just don't. 
But my 2 cents ; those Hashirama clones didn't seem to be using any signature giant mokuton constructs and Madara had his lower stage Susano'o on. If Hashi clones tried to fight Madara using taijutsu or basic shit, it is natural that they got their shit torn apart by Susano'o.




> ..and what is your definition of skill? Naruto applies the Kawazu Kumite fighting style in battle. The invisible natural energy extensions that protrude from Naruto's body are just as much a "skill" of that style as the one-inch-punch is in Wing Chung, the roundhouse kick in Muay Thai, or the _Kuzushi _in Judo.


What is Kawazu Kumite exactly ? Did Naruto do any outstanding manuevers ? Show any different Taijutsu moves that stand out in any way? The only time he displayed some kind of a taijutsu prowess was against Deva realm and he overpowered Deva with brute strength. 

This is skill : Ei Ei
Ei

Look @ those manuevers. 

This is skill : Ei
Disarming Kisame with his legs.

Ei
That fluid manuever Itachi pulled is pure skill as well.




> Yes, but Sasuke's sword can be avoided (which is how Itachi beat it) while Naruto's particular style makes evasion incredibly difficult, if not impossible.


Yes and it is equally hard to block Sasuke's sword while it is possible to block Naruto.

Also you can evade Naruto unless you try to do it like Fat realm and only move your head 2 inches to the side. Someone with knowledge can keep a safe distance @ all times.



> You're making the claim that Itachi can toss Naruto around like a toddler based on him outplaying Hebi Sasuke.


In a similar instance yes, he surely can. 



> Grimm, what do you think would happen if you tired to "toss" Mike Tyson around? It wouldn't work, because he's a hell of alot stronger than you are. If Itachi's putting his hands on Naruto, then strength comes into the equation– no questions asked.



Sage mode doesn't make Naruto heavier. Itachi can lift him up just like he did to Sasuke.

Also the example doesn't fly because I can't lift a 200 LBS dude with 1 arm, and outmanuver one of the greatest boxers of all times. 



> Furthermore, since Itachi cannot _dodge_ Naruto's punches, there is no conceivable way for him to replicate his feat against Sasuke with Sage Naruto...so at this point, I'm not even sure what support there is for your claim.



Sasuke didn't get any realy chance to take a swing @ Itachi. @ the very worst Naruto's nature energy punches would brush off Itachi's feet. That is if Itachi doesn't have any knowledge of it.


Anyways, we've started debating something else entirely. My claim is that Itachi is physically agile, fast and skilled enough to outmanuver an off guard Naruto.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> What is Kawazu Kumite exactly ? Did Naruto do any outstanding manuevers ? Show any different Taijutsu moves that stand out in any way? The only time he displayed some kind of a taijutsu prowess was against Deva realm and he overpowered Deva with brute strength.



The Ghost Punches kinda stood out to me.  



> This is skill : [4] [4]
> [4]
> 
> Look @ those manuevers.
> ...



This is flash and acrobatics. That isn't what skill is defined by.

Yes, those maneuvers were skillful, but Naruto's "brute force" style of fighting can be done just as skillfully. Flashy Kung-Fu isn't the only skillful martial art. Actually, most professional fighters rely on submission strength and power punches rather than flips & tricks.

That even stands true in Naruto. Killer B is probably the best acrobat this Manga has seen, yet when he's without his swords he fights like his brother– a wrestler. Gated Gai drops all of the flips and shit for power punches. His final suicide finisher is just a juiced up jump kick.

You also can't simply ignore strength disparities. Lets strip Kid Lee of his superhuman abilities, but let him keep his acrobatic skill he displayed against Kimimaro. If you put him in the ring with the 6ft, 220lbs Tyson, Rock Lee's going to get his shit pushed in. Can Tyson dance around like Lee can? No, but he can floor grown men with his fist, and that's enough to murder a 100 pound kid.

You're buying to much into the fluff. There's a reason that Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu while Lee has a 4.5.



> Also you can evade Naruto unless you try to do it like Fat realm and only move your head 2 inches to the side. Someone with knowledge can keep a safe distance @ all times.



Almost all dodges in close combat are done by inches. If Itachi outright leaps out of the way, he won't be in position for a counter attack; it's counterproductive. 



> Sage mode doesn't make Naruto heavier. Itachi can lift him up just like he did to Sasuke.



Then it becomes a grappling match. All of these ninja are superhuman and can therefore lift each other, but that's besides the point. For example, even though Sasuke can lift Raikage, had he tired that little hop-flip-toss maneuver that Itachi performed, Raikage would've grabbed Sasuke out of the air, slammed his forehead against the floor, and stomped on his face.

Itachi's simply at far too much of a strength disadvantage to throw Sage Naruto around. It'd be in Itachi's best interest not to grab onto him. 



> @ the very worst Naruto's nature energy punches would brush off Itachi's feet. That is if Itachi doesn't have any knowledge of it.



Where did you get that? What durability feat of Itachi's suggests he tanking Sage Naruto's blows to the cheek?



> Anyways, we've started debating something else entirely. My claim is that Itachi is physically agile, fast and skilled enough to outmanuver an off guard Naruto.





			
				You said:
			
		

> So yes, Itachi tosses around SM Naruto like an infant.



I'm debating this madness. 

Can Itachi kick an off guard Naruto? Yeah, why not. It's probably not going to do anything though. Sasuke's kick on Base B comes to mind when I picture a taijutsu exchange where one party has a massive strength advantage.


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## ShadowReaper (May 12, 2014)

Madara is far above than Itachi in dojutsu, Ninjutsu and taijutsu. The only thing Itachi might be better than him is his genjutsu and Tsukyomi/Izanami.


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## SubtleObscurantist (May 12, 2014)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> He got both of them. Naruto was in a state where sensing danger is easy, He was able to react last minute to someone as fast as an unamplified Ei.
> Madara still has sensing, which enabled him to sense someone as fast as Ei, who is probably faster than Tobirama and much faster than Itachi. You could generalise the Tobirama instance to an extent.
> 
> Plus I don't think Naruto's reflexes = Sasuke's if the former's would be _rapidly enhanced_. Kakashi and Sasuke is probably debatable.
> ...



A blitz involves striking someone so fast from a distance that would require them to move that no defense can be raised. Naruto blocked so it's not a blitz, and as I discussed previously in this thread, I do not believe SM Naruto had his guard up. And that does make a difference, since even sensors do need to concentrate to use their powers to their _fullest_ in battle. And heck, Naruto had no idea how much physical power Madara had gotten from Hasharima, which for the record isn't in play here. You are also forgetting that Sasuke managed a similar feat against Ei. I do believe SM Naruto's feat is better, but not hugely so, and given that each progression of the Sharingan has better perception, I do think that Sasuke's Mangekyo should give him reactions very close to SM Naruto. And Itachi has better base reactions than Sasuke did (up until his current form) so he should have reactions at least as good as SM Naruto. And I truly believe that had SM Naruto actually been prepping for battle (notice, he was not in a fighting stance, had no Rasengans prepared to counter with, had no clones out, etc), he could have done more than block Madara. And also I would like to keep in mind that Madara was relying entirely on the combination of Hasharima's sensing (which is good, but not top level, much less sage level) and the kind of preternatural senses that high level combatants tend to have. Itachi, for the record, has such a preternatural sense himself as he has demonstrated before when he attacks things in his blind spots. Madara had no other option but a full speed attack to get to Hasharima before anyone else could interfere, so he just jumped right in, which in my opinion took Naruto (who saw his eyes were closed and therefore likely wasn't expecting a taijutsu attack of all things) off guard. 

My basic point of quarrel is the notion that Madara's feat there is an end all be all, and the notion that sage Naruto's reflexes are far above Taka Sasuke's or Kakashi's. I don't doubt that Madara has better base reflexes and speed than Itachi. I also don't doubt that his EMS would further enhance his reflexes. But this battle prevents Shunshin, which is ninjutsu, hence preventing Madara from using his much larger chakra pool (which would be equalized here anyway) from using a super-shunshin and also has him alive, which means no sensing to further amplify reflexes and none of Hasharima's strength either. Not that I doubt he is stronger than Itachi by a good margin, however.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The Ghost Punches kinda stood out to me.


Doesn't have much to do with skill. Works best if opponent has no knowledge. Wouldn't consider it one of the 'skillfull' taijutsu manuevers.




> This is flash and acrobatics. That isn't what skill is defined by.


I didn't say that alone defines skill. But yes, being able to pull those off is more skillfull than kicking someone in the gut and producing results not because of the kick but rather the strength behind it which is purely attributed to the "power up".





> Yes, those maneuvers were skillful, but Naruto's "brute force" style of fighting can be done just as skillfully. Flashy Kung-Fu isn't the only skillful martial art. Actually, most professional fighters rely on submission strength and power punches rather than flips & tricks.


Yes. *for our worlds standarts *Naruto'd be pretty impressive.
I hope you get what I mean.



> That even stands true in Naruto. Killer B is probably the best acrobat this Manga has seen, yet when he's without his swords he fights like his brother– a wrestler. Gated Gai drops all of the flips and shit for power punches. His final suicide finisher is just a juiced up jump kick.


Killer Bee isn't a taijutsu master, he is a kenjutsu master.
Gai has moves like MP and AT so just because his last move is a plain old kick doesn't mean he is a taijutsu master because of that.




> You also can't simply ignore strength disparities. Lets strip Kid Lee of his superhuman abilities, but let him keep his acrobatic skill he displayed against Kimimaro. If you put him in the ring with the 6ft, 220lbs Tyson, Rock Lee's going to get his shit pushed in. Can Tyson dance around like Lee can? No, but he can floor grown men with his fist, and that's enough to murder a 100 pound kid.


Actually if Lee retains his acrobatic skill, he'll never get hit by tyson and eventually put him down by hitting him in the balls or gauging his eyes or something.
The agility displayed in Narutoverse is leaps and bounds over our world. 

But I don't see any point in debating this. Where are you trying to get @ ?




> You're buying to much into the fluff. There's a reason that Tsunade has a 5 in Taijutsu while Lee has a 4.5.



Lee has 5 taijutsu in databook 3. 

Sasuke has tier 4 genjutsu and Hiruzen and Orochimaru have tier 5. Why don't you question that ? 

Tsunade probably is a better taijutsu fighter than pre skip Lee, but we sadly didn't get a chance to see it. Unless her super strength punches are her taijutsu prowess(gathering chakra and releasing it), then yes her DB 5 surely isn't justified.



> Almost all dodges in close combat are done by inches. If Itachi outright leaps out of the way, he won't be in position for a counter attack; it's counterproductive.


No, he can move behind Naruto just like he did to Sasuke. I am pretty sure Itachi wouldn't attempt to try to grapple Naruto when they are face to face.



> Then it becomes a grappling match. All of these ninja are superhuman and can therefore lift each other, but that's besides the point. For example, even though Sasuke can lift Raikage, had he tired that little hop-flip-toss maneuver that Itachi performed, Raikage would've grabbed Sasuke out of the air, slammed his forehead against the floor, and stomped on his face.


Sasuke couldn't pull that off on Raikage for a couple of reasons. Mainly because he doesn't have the physical prowess or taijutsu skill to do it and he knows throwing Raikage around wouldn't even phase him after witnessing that the dude tanked the chidori blade with his neck.

I am also not debating whether throwing Naruto around would be an effective fighting strategy against him or not, I am only saying that Itachi has the capability of doing so.
Would Itachi do it in a fight ? I don't think so. 



> Itachi's simply at far too much of a strength disadvantage to throw Sage Naruto around. It'd be in Itachi's best interest not to grab onto him.


Read above. 



> Where did you get that? What durability feat of Itachi's suggests he tanking Sage Naruto's blows to the cheek?


I never said that. I was referring to Itachi vs Hebi Sasuke encounter specifically. None of Sasuke's blows came near any of Itachi's vital areas. His first swing was aimed @ Itach's feet because Itachi was high up in the air which I think Itachi somehow blocked the sword or stepped on it and the other swing was a complete miss. 



> I'm debating this madness.
> 
> Can Itachi kick an off guard Naruto? Yeah, why not.


I think you misunderstood my claim.
I only pointed out that Itachi's physical prowess should be enough to outmanuver Naruto. I wouldn't bet on Itachi against SM Naruto in a taijutsu match unless Itachi had access to some kind of weaponry.


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## Rocky (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I think you misunderstood my claim.
> I only pointed out that Itachi's physical prowess should be enough to outmanuver Naruto. I wouldn't bet on Itachi against SM Naruto in a taijutsu match unless Itachi had access to some kind of weaponry.



I dunno man. I went back and read some of Itachi's taijutsu skirmishes. 

Itachi seemed to be physically beastlier than Sauce in general. When they first engaged, Sasuke parried Itachi's Kunai thrust (if that's Naruto, Itachi goes flying like Pain did). Itachi then _grabbed and held his arm_, using it as leverage to kick him in the face and toss him. Itachi cannot grab and hold onto Naruto's arm. Naruto will bring Itachi back down to the ground with lethal force when we look at what happened to that big ass rhino Naruto grabbed.

I mean, Sasuke is a vagina compared to Sage Naruto. Later on, Itachi kicked Sauce into a wall, held his ass down, and ripped his eye out. Naruto was ragdolling boss summons. I don't see how Itachi's going to be as successful as he was against Sasuke when it was such a physical fight. You can even look further back at Itachi's match with Kakashi. Itachi would die, badly, if he fought Sage Naruto like he fought Kakashi. 

I'm not convinced that Itachi's punches and kicks would phase Naruto. Remember what happened when Sasuke kicked Killer B? Nothing. Pain Arc B and Sage Naruto are not all that different in terms of physical strength man, and neither are Itachi & Sasuke in the grand scheme of things. What can Itachi really do to Naruto with his bare hands, especially if Naruto guards?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I dunno man. I went back and read some of Itachi's taijutsu skirmishes.
> 
> Itachi seemed to be physically beastlier than Sauce in general. When they first engaged, Sasuke parried Itachi's Kunai thrust (if that's Naruto, Itachi goes flying like Pain did). Itachi then _grabbed and held his arm_, using it as leverage to kick him in the face and toss him. Itachi cannot grab and hold onto Naruto's arm. Naruto will bring Itachi back down to the ground with lethal force when we look at what happened to that big ass rhino Naruto grabbed.
> 
> ...



I agree with you here. Itachi wouldn't be able to do anything to SM Naruto with his barehands.


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## Jagger (May 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke with 3 tomoe and SM Naruto have comparable speed/reflexes/CQC prowess :
> 
> _grab onto_
> 
> ...


Sasuke has nice reflexes, I never said otherwise. However, how does that turn into Itachi beating SM Naruto in a battle of pure Taijutsu? 

While Sasuke might reflexes just as good as Naruto's with his Sharingan, he still lacks the strength/durability the latter has or did you forget when Naruto killed with one punch Nagato's Preta Path and his advantage over those shinobi that are not trained in Senjutsu?


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## Vicotex (May 13, 2014)

Am ok with this thread, madara takes this


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Link removed
> 
> Link removed



Please don't tell me you're actually equating a three-tomoe Sasuke at the time of the Itachi Pursuit Arc to much, much later when he went up against the five Kage.

Odds are given such a time gap he improved by tons. 

Not to mention that Sage Naruto's feat relative to Sasuke's is far superior; he had to maneuver his entire body around the Third's arm to get a good position from which to strike; Sasuke only had to duck. Where it can be argued that Sage Naruto is just as fast as the Third, if not faster, then same cannot be said for Sasuke at that time with the Fourth.



> So yes, Itachi tosses around SM Naruto like an infant. Especially if he catches him off guard like Madara did.



Itachi isn't tossing around Sage Naruto when the latter has an overwhelming strength advantage and merely stays rooted to the ground laughing at Itachi's pitiful strength when the Uchiha attempts to throw him off his feet. He winds up a punch, and snaps his neck with Frog Katas.

Your argument is inherently flawed to begin with because your primary evidence that consists of Itachi overwhelming Sasuke at close-quarters ignores the fact that this isn't even remotely similar to what Madara did - which is moving so fast, at a solid distance of at least 10-15 meters from Sai and Naruto, that his adversary could barely react. Itachi merely defeated Sasuke with skill. Madara's sheer speed is quite different.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 13, 2014)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Please don't tell me you're actually equating a three-tomoe Sasuke at the time of the Itachi Pursuit Arc to much, much later when he went up against the five Kage.
> 
> Odds are given such a time gap he improved by tons.



Pure speculation. 



> Not to mention that Sage Naruto's feat relative to Sasuke's is far superior; he had to maneuver his entire body around the Third's arm to get a good position from which to strike; Sasuke only had to duck. Where it can be argued that Sage Naruto is just as fast as the Third, if not faster, then same cannot be said for Sasuke at that time with the Fourth.


I think you are grasping @ straws.
Sasuke ducked because he was trying to shank the dude in his heart. Feats are identical in my book.



> Itachi isn't tossing around Sage Naruto when the latter has an overwhelming strength advantage and merely stays rooted to the ground laughing at Itachi's pitiful strength when the Uchiha attempts to throw him off his feet. He winds up a punch, and snaps his neck with Frog Katas.



SM doesn't make him heavier. So I am pretty sure he can be tossed around once outmanuvered.



> Your argument is inherently flawed to begin with because your primary evidence that consists of Itachi overwhelming Sasuke at close-quarters ignores the fact that this isn't even remotely similar to what Madara did - which is moving so fast, at a solid distance of at least 10-15 meters from Sai and Naruto, that his adversary could barely react. Itachi merely defeated Sasuke with skill. Madara's sheer speed is quite different.



I am not suggesting what Itachi did to Sasuke is identical to what Madara did to Naruto.

I am pointing out that Itachi has the capability of outmanuvering someone around Naruto's skill and speed ballpark. 
Itachi also outright blitzes Sasuke here : 2
Which is perfectly identical to what Madara did to Naruto except for the distance. But then, Naruto wasn't even in combat when Madara jumped on em. He probably wasn't fully alert.


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## ueharakk (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not suggesting what Itachi did to Sasuke is identical to what Madara did to Naruto.
> 
> I am pointing out that Itachi has the capability of outmanuvering someone around Naruto's skill and speed ballpark.
> Itachi also outright blitzes Sasuke here : 2
> Which is perfectly identical to what Madara did to Naruto except for the distance. But then, Naruto wasn't even in combat when Madara jumped on em. He probably wasn't fully alert.



cmon now.  Itachi getting in sasuke's face is all within the Tsukuyomi world.  If that was in the real world, Itachi would have been right in sasuke's face after sasuke breaks tsukuyomi since itachi controls time in the tsukuyomi realm.  *however we see that's not the case.*

In addition to that, even if we ignored the fact that it was in tsukuyomi, itachi only would have gotten into sasuke's face by diverting sasuke's attention with the crows, so it's not a real blitz.

If you want to talk about SM Naruto vs Itachi, Kakashi is able to hold his own against people like Sasuke and Itachi, yet Deva gets the better of him, and SM Naruto murders deva in taijutsu without even using frog katas.

In addition to that, SM sensing is better than sharingan precog for taijutsu since the sharingan only applies to things one can see, not things one can't see perfect example of this is here *where Naruto saves Kakashi from death before kakashi even perceives the threat*.

In addition to that, the other link you gave of Sasuke vs Itachi (*where Naruto saves Kakashi from death before kakashi even perceives the threat*) was in a genjutsu which is why Sasuke can also blitz itachi like *this* and *this* and why you don't see people using that for their arguments.

Itachi isn't anywhere near living Madara w/ hashirama cell's level of speed, taijutsu or reactions.  His physical speed and sharingan reactions merely allow him to go toe to toe with people of V1 raikage speed like KCM Naruto w/o shunshin.


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## ItachiIzanagi (May 13, 2014)

*Madara*

Madara wins. As much as I like Itachi he can't beat a god.


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## Veracity (May 13, 2014)

@grimm

Really Grimm? Sm Naruto doesn't have to be heavier to not get thrown back. It's all based on his leg strength planting him to the ground. You could put Vegeta in the same position as Sasuke, yet Itachi wouldn't be tossing shit.

And Sage Naruto was fully aware what Madara was going to do. Stop acting like he was facing the wrong way or something. He literally was looking dead at Madara when he dashed in; _avoided_

It's also to note that Sage sencing automatically puts the user in battle mode regardless of what you assume. It's the reason Madara was able to avoid an FTG Tobirama blind side attack without even knowing his location;
_avoided_


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## ATastyMuffin (May 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pure speculation.



I am?

When we're talking a fighter who's a certified genius in all combat aspects and has been known for improving _exponentially _in strength in *very* limited periods of time, do you seriously think it's 'speculation' that he could have much improved between the events in which he fought Itachi and the Raikage subsequently? Especially when the amount of time that transpired in this window was likely months?

Let's not forget he fought Killer Bee and acquired the Mangekyo Sharingan in that timeframe as well - the latter of which, would have almost certainly required extensive training from Sasuke given he was already testing Susano'o prior to the summit. Sorry, I don't find it the least bit speculatory that there could be a substantial difference between three-tomoe Sasuke when battling his brother, compared to Ay. To equate them would be patently *disingenuous.*




> I think you are grasping @ straws.
> Sasuke ducked because he was trying to shank the dude in his heart. Feats are identical in my book.



Shifting your head a few inches downward compared to completely changing your body position are not 'identical feats'.

You're free to disagree, it just makes you that much more ignorant.



> SM doesn't make him heavier. So I am pretty sure he can be tossed around once outmanuvered.



Sage Jiraiya was rendering craters just by landing on the ground.

Sage Naruto fell from the spikes and destroyed an entire column of them just from the impact. A regular human would not have caused that much damage, from that height.

This is common sense.



> I am not suggesting what Itachi did to Sasuke is identical to what Madara did to Naruto.



Except that's what you said. Are you contradicting yourself?



'implying itachi wouldn't be able to do the same thing' 



> Itachi also outright blitzes Sasuke here : *look at the scan again, *



Tsukuyomi, you dunce.



> Which is perfectly identical to what Madara did to Naruto except for the distance.



Distance tends to matter, you dunce.

Not to mention that even if we weren't discounting that 'blitz' feat on the sole basis that it was a genjutsu to begin with, Sasuke wasn't even paying attention due to being distracted by the crows.



> But then, Naruto wasn't even in combat when Madara jumped on em. He probably wasn't fully alert.



You can't be serious. Sage Naruto was looking right at him and just saw him perform a hand seal.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 14, 2014)

ueharakk said:


> cmon now.  Itachi getting in sasuke's face is all within the Tsukuyomi world.  If that was in the real world, Itachi would have been right in sasuke's face after sasuke breaks tsukuyomi since itachi controls time in the tsukuyomi realm.  *however we see that's not the case.*


I know it was in Tsukiyomi.
But the fight progressed as if it was the extension of the real one. The author wanted us to think that up until the very end. 

In that sense, being in Tsukiyomi doesn't discredit its validity. 



> In addition to that, even if we ignored the fact that it was in tsukuyomi, itachi only would have gotten into sasuke's face by diverting sasuke's attention with the crows, so it's not a real blitz.



Ok lets call it semi blitz. Itachi was able to blitz Sasuke in the heat of the battle by capitalizing on a minor distraction.

Its not like Itachi jumped @ Sasuke off combat like Madara did to Naruto.



> If you want to talk about SM Naruto vs Itachi, Kakashi is able to hold his own against people like Sasuke and Itachi, yet Deva gets the better of him, and SM Naruto murders deva in taijutsu without even using frog katas.



Deva got better of Kakashi once, when Kakashi was preoccupied with casting a jutsu. And Kakashi isn't Itachi. He lacks Itachi's agility, speed and taijutsu skill. Shouten Itachi got better of Kakashi too.



> In addition to that, SM sensing is better than sharingan precog for taijutsu since the sharingan only applies to things one can see, not things one can't see perfect example of this is here *where Naruto saves Kakashi from death before kakashi even perceives the threat*.


As long as sharingan can see, it is better than sage sensing. Because it literally shows the next move of your opponent before it happens.

Sage sensing is better in some situations, but not in direct combat. 



> In addition to that, the other link you gave of Sasuke vs Itachi (*where Naruto saves Kakashi from death before kakashi even perceives the threat*) was in a genjutsu which is why Sasuke can also blitz itachi like *this* and *this* and why you don't see people using that for their arguments.


Itachi was fucking around. I thought it was clear as day. 



> Itachi isn't anywhere near living Madara w/ hashirama cell's level of speed, taijutsu or reactions.  His physical speed and sharingan reactions merely allow him to go toe to toe with people of V1 raikage speed like KCM Naruto w/o shunshin.



Itachi's speed, agility and taijutsu skill allows him to outmanuever someone of Naruto's caliber(ın those areas) and then allows him to outright blitz him with a minor distraction.

Itachi doesn't need to have Madara's exact speed to be able to replicate what Madara did. He could jump on someone like Naruto if his guard was down. Thats all I am saying.



ATastyMuffin said:


> I am?
> 
> When we're talking a fighter who's a certified genius in all combat aspects and has been known for improving _exponentially _in strength in *very* limited periods of time, do you seriously think it's 'speculation' that he could have much improved between the events in which he fought Itachi and the Raikage subsequently? Especially when the amount of time that transpired in this window was likely months?



It wasn't months. And Sasuke didn't train, and he only fought killer bee in between those battles. 
So yes, there is absolutely no reason to believe he improved, let alone improved significantly which you are trying to insuniate.

Your claim is a major one. You are talking about massive improvement. 
I need you to back it up with scans if you don't mind.



> Let's not forget he fought Killer Bee and acquired the Mangekyo Sharingan in that timeframe as well - the latter of which, would have almost certainly required extensive training from Sasuke given he was already testing Susano'o prior to the summit. Sorry, I don't find it the least bit speculatory that there could be a substantial difference between three-tomoe Sasuke when battling his brother, compared to Ay. To equate them would be patently *disingenuous.*


You are talking about things you that think might have transpired off panel. And linking it to a significant development. Even if Sasuke trained for Susano'o, which I believe he didn't(otherwise he wouldn't be surprised @ the pain it causes while trying to maintain it), there is no link between that and this taijutsu skill, speed and reactions.

You are the first person who thinks there is a gap berween Hebi Sasuke and beginning of summit arc Sasuke in regards to speed, so I'd like to you to back up what you said with scans.




> Shifting your head a few inches downward compared to completely changing your body position are not 'identical feats'.
> 
> You're free to disagree, it just makes you that much more ignorant.



They both saw their opponents moves, reacted @ the last second as they landed their blows on where they wanted to land them.

Whats worse than ignorance is, trying to make big deal out of small, minor, unimportant details.

Naruto might have shifted a bit more, so what ? Feats are identical.




> Sage Jiraiya was rendering craters just by landing on the ground.
> 
> Sage Naruto fell from the spikes and destroyed an entire column of them just from the impact. A regular human would not have caused that much damage, from that height.
> 
> This is common sense.



Probably because Jiraiya intentionally stepped on the ground hard. 
And yes Naruto's durability was greater than those rocks so the rocks broke instead of him.

Gai can push someone through a concrete wall. I am pretty sure those rocks would break with an impact a 55 kg person would create after falling from such height.



> Except that's what you said. Are you contradicting yourself?
> 
> 
> 
> 'implying itachi wouldn't be able to do the same thing'



I didn't contradict myself. Those 2 lines you are comparing are different. 

One is the claim I made, that Itachi could replicate what Madara did to Naruto.
The other is about the part I posted, where Itachi outmanuvers Sasuke and throws him around.
The latter isn't identical to what Madara did to Naruto. 

Work on that reading comprehension will ya ? 



> Tsukuyomi, you dunce.


So what you dunce ? 



> Distance tends to matter, you dunce.



So we started name calling now ? 
Good, I knew I was getting closer to victory, didn't know I was this close 

The thing is, the difference distance wasn't as big as you make it out to be : 
*this*


> Not to mention that even if we weren't discounting that 'blitz' feat on the sole basis that it was a genjutsu to begin with, Sasuke wasn't even paying attention due to being distracted by the crows.


Yes after seeing a bunch of crows, Sasuke forgot Itachi was there, the person he wanted to kill the most. Yes makes sense.


Itachi created a distraction in the midst of the battle and capitalized on it. Its not like he did something Sasuke wasn't expecting or Sasuke wasn't ready for. Lol.

Madara attacked Naruto off combat. 




> You can't be serious. Sage Naruto was looking right at him and just saw him perform a hand seal.



They were talking and not fighting. Big difference.

I'd love to see Madara consistently blitz Naruto in the heat of the battle. Do you really believe that ?


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## ATastyMuffin (May 14, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It wasn't months.



From when Sasuke and Itachi fought in their fateful battle, to Sasuke being admitted to the Akatsuki ranks, to Sasuke being tasked with hunting Killer Bee and an amount of time in which Sasuke would have had to travel to the Lightning Country, and eventually battle him, to the Raikage setting up the Five Kage Summit (not to mention the time period it took to set it up, location, security and whatnot) to Naruto training his Sage Mode for a certain number of weeks, to the Invasion of Pain Arc, to finally, the Summit Arc.

I would hazard a guess that all that took place within a month or two.



> *And Sasuke didn't train, and he only fought killer bee in between those battles. *



We're in agreement that without training Sasuke couldn't have used the Susano'o ribcage nigh instantaneously against the Liger Bomb, right? 



> So yes, there is absolutely no reason to believe he improved, let alone improved significantly which you are trying to insuniate.



So you think there's zero difference between an Akatsuki Mangekyo Sharingan Sasuke who could barely deactivate the flames of Amaterasu in the events of battling Killer Bee, to his Kage Summit self where he was casually manipulating them, to such an extent that an entirely new element was dubbed, 'Blaze Element'?

Shut the fuck up. 



> Your claim is a major one. You are talking about massive improvement.
> I need you to back it up with scans if you don't mind.



Blaze Release is all I need to counter your 'Sasuke didn't train' nonsense.



> You are the first person who thinks there is a gap berween Hebi Sasuke and beginning of summit arc Sasuke in regards to speed, so I'd like to you to back up what you said with scans.



Let's see here.

First off, let's discuss this so-called feat in which Itachi overwhelmed Sasuke in taijutsu, which is the main bulk of evidence in your argument that the same could be done to Sage Naruto. Did we not see, later, that Itachi had been using a genjutsu all along? So that entire exchange in which Itachi hurled his brother around, could have been false, as well.

This statement supports it, as well. So right off the bat, you can't even begin to claim that Itachi is superior to Sage Naruto in terms of hand-to-hand combat because Sasuke, whom you're using to equate to the latter, may have not even been actually fighting hand-to-hand with Itachi to begin with.

Even ignoring the fact that this 'feat' was genjutsu to begin with, Sasuke being overwhelmed by Itachi in a close-quarters match-up is an inferior feat to reacting* perfectly fine* to a regular-speed Ay, who was matching Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto blow-for-blow until the final, max-speed Body Flickers came into play.

Guess what else? Nine-Tails Chakra Mode Naruto was easily matching Itachi's attacks whilst talking, yet was being pressured by Ay's speed at every confrontation - enough that he had to block the Raikage's blows as opposed to casually dodging them in conversation, as he did with Itachi. That conveys one clear message: regular-speed, or 'Version One' (as dubbed by the NBD) Ay is faster than Edo Tensei Itachi.

Edo Tensei Itachi is also faster than he was when he battled Hebi Sasuke, you know? 



> They both saw their opponents moves, reacted @ the last second as they landed their blows on where they wanted to land them.



'where they wanted to land them' is irrelevant. Point is, Sage Naruto's dodge is a decidedly faster and more difficult feat. They're not identical.

If we compared the amount of distance moved in that timeframe, Sasuke shifted two or three inches while Sage Naruto moved at least ten. Quite a substantial difference.



> Probably because Jiraiya intentionally stepped on the ground hard.



And why would that be? 

It's not like Jiraiya was slamming his legs into the rock; as I said, he was merely landing from a jump.



> And yes Naruto's durability was greater than those rocks so the rocks broke instead of him.



... you realize that durability has nothing to do with what we're talking about right? To have broken those rocks, you need a certain amount of* force*, and in this case, you need a shitload. Naruto's mass must have been inflated to a superhuman extent to have broken those rocks.

The fact that you think durability is related at all is hilarious.



> Gai can push someone through a *concrete wall.* .



A concrete wall isn't exactly equal to an entire column of spikes shattered into thousands of fragments.



> I am pretty sure those rocks would break with an impact a 55 kg person would create after falling from such height





First off, he'd be impaled. Secondly, even if we assumed he was durable enough not to do so, a 55-kg person falling from a height of a hundred meters, more or less, wouldn't even make a crater in concrete with his/her fall, let alone shattering a column of solid rock spikes.



> One is the claim I made, that Itachi could replicate what Madara did to Naruto.
> The other is about the part I posted, where Itachi outmanuvers Sasuke and throws him around.
> The latter isn't identical to what Madara did to Naruto.
> 
> Work on that reading comprehension will ya ?



Wrong.

I posted, 'Itachi is equal to a guy who can move so fast Sage Naruto only had enough to to block?', and you replied, 'Itachi can't do the same?'

So you're basically implying Itachi can replicate what Madara did, which is, I repeat, have physical raw speed so great that Naruto can only react and move to block the attack. This has nothing to do with Itachi's 'throwing around' or taijutsu skill/prowess or whatnot. What Madara did was *pure movement speed*.

Sorry, Itachi's movement speed alone isn't great enough to almost blitz Sage Naruto, and yet you still claimed it. Don't contradict yourself, son.



> So what you dunce ?



Genjutsu feats are not applicable? 



> So we started name calling now ?
> Good, I knew I was getting closer to victory, didn't know I was this close



You wish, buddy. 



> The thing is, the difference distance wasn't as big as you make it out to be :
> entire column of spikes shattered into thousands of fragments.



It matters when Itachi was up close and personal when duelling with Sasuke, whereas Madara had to cross ten or so meters to reach Naruto and Sai.

Ten meters is relatively much bigger than less than a meter, you know.



> Yes after seeing a bunch of crows, Sasuke forgot Itachi was there, the person he wanted to kill the most. Yes makes sense.



... you did see Sasuke glancing at those crows in surprise, right? So how is Itachi 'blitzing him' anything valid when he could have closed the distance to capitalize the moment in which Sasuke was caught off-guard?

For someone who's persistent about claiming that Sage Naruto was 'caught off-guard' by Madara and thus the latter never really blitzed him, I'm surprised you're this adamant.



> Itachi created a distraction in the midst of the battle and capitalized on it. Its not like he did something Sasuke wasn't expecting or Sasuke wasn't ready for. Lo



Sasuke wasn't ready for those crows. Hence the '!'

I don't have to spell this out for you. 



> Madara attacked Naruto off combat.



I'm going to have to shove this down your throat again because apparently you're not cluing in at all.

You, without a single trace of irony, believe that Sage Naruto, a well-experienced fighter enhanced by reflexes and sensing of danger that is akin to pre-cognition, believe that he wasn't ready for combat against one of the most dangerous shinobi in history, now revived with Edo Tensei and who was *performing hand seals right in front of Naruto* (hence, capable of techniques and thus offensive ones as well) when the distance in question between him and the adversary was just 10 meters wide?



> They were talking and not fighting. Big difference.



Where was Naruto talking, I beg you to point this out to me.



> I'd love to see Madara consistently blitz Naruto in the heat of the battle. Do you really believe that ?



I never said Madara blitzed Naruto. He almost did, which is much more impressive than Itachi's ever done.


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## ueharakk (May 15, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know it was in Tsukiyomi.
> But the fight progressed as if it was the extension of the real one. *The author wanted us to think that up until the very end. *
> 
> In that sense, being in Tsukiyomi doesn't discredit its validity.


Where did you get the bolded from?  Itachi controls everything in his tsukuyomi world, why would the author use a world where itachi controls everything in order to reflect reality?  Itachi's real-world bouts against Sasuke would never imply he's capable of manhandling sasuke like he did in the tsukuyomi world.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok lets call it semi blitz. Itachi was able to blitz Sasuke in the heat of the battle by capitalizing on a minor distraction.
> 
> Its not like Itachi jumped @ Sasuke off combat like Madara did to Naruto.


I was just trying to clarify what actually happened, the comparison between madara vs naruto is out of the scope of that particular post.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Deva got better of Kakashi once, when Kakashi was preoccupied with casting a jutsu. And Kakashi isn't Itachi. He lacks Itachi's agility, speed and taijutsu skill. Shouten Itachi got better of Kakashi too.


When did shouten itachi get the better of kakashi?  you mean kagebunshin?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> As long as sharingan can see, it is better than sage sensing. Because it literally shows the next move of your opponent before it happens.


Then why does SM allow Naruto to perform an even better feat than sasuke could with his 3 tomoe sharingan?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sage sensing is better in some situations, but not in direct combat.


It's far better in direct combat, we've seen this with SM Kabuto, SM/BSM/current Naruto and SM Madara.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi was fucking around. I thought it was clear as day.


if itachi wasn't serious during those 3 tomoe genjutsu clashes, neither was sasuke.  But anyways that's irrelevant since the point is that it happened within their genjutsus and thus it's not applicable to their actual capabilities.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's speed, agility and taijutsu skill allows him to outmanuever someone of Naruto's caliber(ın those areas) and then allows him to outright blitz him with a minor distraction.


I mean, you can assert that all you want to, but it's just not true when all the evidence you give of that would be itachi's feats within a world where he controls everything and against someone who with weaker taijutsu and lesser reactions than SM Naruto.


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