# Strongest Bleach character Katakuri can beat.



## B Rabbit (Nov 8, 2017)

Katakuri doesn't need a food break.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 8, 2017)

Gremmy sends him to space, and Kenpachi should be a 50/50 shit for him.


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## B Rabbit (Nov 8, 2017)

Kenpachi would be a good match.

Peerless Donuts will really give Kenpachi a headache.


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## Alita (Nov 9, 2017)

So is this gonna turn into yet another debate over whether katakuri is island level or not?

Reactions: Agree 2


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## B Rabbit (Nov 9, 2017)

I doubt it. Both sides already know where they stand.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 9, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Kenpachi would be a good match.
> 
> Peerless Donuts will really give Kenpachi a headache.


Patchless 2 armed Kenny swings his sword and Katakuri is gonna get blown away

Reactions: Winner 2


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## B Rabbit (Nov 9, 2017)

Pretty much with Katakuri's precog it would be a while before he pulls that off.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 9, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Pretty much with Katakuri's precog it would be a while before he pulls that off.


Katakuri only has a chance with IC Kenpachi, fully bloodlusted Katakuri's attacks wont be doing much of anything


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## CrownedEagle (Nov 9, 2017)

Bazz B or maybe pre-RG Byakuya if he lucky but i highly doubt that, anything above Shikai Kenpachi is too much for him to handle it.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 9, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> So is this gonna turn into yet another debate over whether katakuri is island level or not?



It's not a discussion, Kata is island level.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Disagree 1


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## Keishin (Nov 9, 2017)

If hes city level then starrk is a good fight


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## OrangePeel (Nov 9, 2017)

dies to baraggan

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ho11ow (Nov 9, 2017)

Stop at Bambi

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Blade (Nov 9, 2017)

literally Respira stops him

he can't do jackshit against it


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## shunsui1 (Nov 9, 2017)

He stops at espada higher than 6......
And he doesn't beat any captain except for possibly Sajin.


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2017)

is  this dude weak or smth?

how is any current high-tier/top tier losing to espada?


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## Jackalinthebox (Nov 9, 2017)

shunsui1 said:


> He stops at espada higher than 6......
> And he doesn't beat any captain except for possibly Sajin.


Dat bleach wank is a bit too blatant. Might wanna dial it back some


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## shunsui1 (Nov 9, 2017)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Dat bleach wank is a bit too blatant. Might wanna dial it back some



It's not wank. How does he beat anybody above grimmjow?


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2017)

by beating the shit out of them with superior stats and prescience


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## shunsui1 (Nov 9, 2017)

So you are saying he's strong enough to break through nnoitoras tougher skin(this is going by the ones saying that kenpachi patchless can handle him)
R2 Ulquiorra

Halibel who if you're taking ulqis words for it is stronger than him.

Barragan respira

Starrk cero metralleta

Yammy(only when released) 

Captains I retract as upper level captains and fan favorites stand the best chance. Mayuri, Sajin and Soifon(despite her speed) do not stand much a chance.


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2017)

wealth of evidence right there

you'd be better off understanding the capabilities of both sides instead of wanking one

katakuri is quantified as faster  stronger and more durable than any of them

He'd win island level or no


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## Blαck (Nov 9, 2017)

Sablés said:


> is  this dude weak or smth?
> 
> how is any current high-tier/top tier losing to espada?


Actually, what are the stats for the top espada?


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## Sablés (Nov 9, 2017)

Blαck said:


> Actually, what are the stats for the top espada?


sup black

uh

low city level and mach 500 for the strongest ones

Others like nnoitra are town and arguably dont even get that speed scaling


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## Blαck (Nov 10, 2017)

Sablés said:


> sup black
> 
> uh
> 
> ...



What up sables 

Well, then katakuri could do fine against the lot of them but barrigans respira will be difficult to deal with

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Regicide (Nov 10, 2017)

Barragan's infinitely greater utility against foes that his peers have no business being pitted against is always going to be funny

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## Dr. White (Nov 10, 2017)

Barrangan is a bad match for him since the mochi will get expired, and he'd need to get in cqc for his island level potency to mean anything. Time dilation field and respira hurt, unless he can time a hit on barrangan but I'm pretty sure it's passive. Could he tag barrangan at the sacrifice of his hand?


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## Regicide (Nov 10, 2017)

Even without taking Respira into account, mere proximity is sufficient to cause rapid aging.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 10, 2017)

shunsui1 said:


> So you are saying he's strong enough to break through nnoitoras tougher skin(this is going by the ones saying that kenpachi patchless can handle him)
> R2 Ulquiorra
> 
> Halibel who if you're taking ulqis words for it is stronger than him.
> ...


I was referring to EoS Kenpachi, who is on a completely different level from Hueco Mundo Kenny.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 10, 2017)

Katakuri one shots Barragan before Respira even comes out, what is this ? 2012 ? Katakuri's faster, has pre-cog and can one shot all the Espada, hell, with his pre-cog he could take all of them at once. Kata's island level, espada are from what I remember town to city level at best. Kata is island, faster and the pre-cog gives him one hell of an advantage. Also, Kata will be just attacking from a distance because, you know, he does have ranged attacks. Stop the wank, Luisenbarn is not going to stop Kata, it takes one good mochi attack and Barragan won't see it coming.


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## Kroczilla (Nov 10, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Katakuri one shots Barragan before Respira even comes out.



ummmmm, last I checked, barragan didn't need respira to age things. he was surrounded with an invisible field that pretty much aged to nothing anything that got too close.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 10, 2017)

Last I checked he was surrounded by an invisible field that slowed things down. To age things, it's either respira or touch him. Since it's a one hit K.O, then one mochi strike'll be enough. He's town level in base.


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## Keishin (Nov 10, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Katakuri one shots Barragan before Respira even comes out, what is this ? 2012 ? Katakuri's faster, has pre-cog and can one shot all the Espada, hell, with his pre-cog he could take all of them at once. Kata's island level, espada are from what I remember town to city level at best. Kata is island, faster and the pre-cog gives him one hell of an advantage. Also, Kata will be just attacking from a distance because, you know, he does have ranged attacks. Stop the wank, Luisenbarn is not going to stop Kata, it takes one good mochi attack and Barragan won't see it coming.


So Barragans field can turn Soifon into a snail but can't make him react to Katakuri? Barragan also fights while on air, he's not mainly a cqc fighter.
And the time field exists to counter the respiras effect on barragan himself and he has used respira to protect himself.


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## Kroczilla (Nov 10, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Last I checked he was surrounded by an invisible field that slowed things down. To age things, it's either respira or touch him. Since it's a one hit K.O, then one mochi strike'll be enough. He's town level in base.



the invisible field slowed things down in base. in released form, it ages anything that comes close. respira was mainly for range/offensive moves.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 10, 2017)

Keishin said:


> So Barragans field can turn Soifon into a snail but can't make him react to Katakuri? Barragan also fights while on air, he's not mainly a cqc fighter.
> And the time field exists to counter the respiras effect on barragan himself and he has used respira to protect himself.



Yeah ... It probably can't when Kata's faster than Soifon by about 2 times. I know he has, that's like the whole deal of fighting him, but remember he has to release and un-released his range is his own touch. One punch from Kata will seal the deal, the fight's over, and even with the field, he won't be able to dodge something as massive and as fast as Katakuri's mochi G3. 



Kroczilla said:


> the invisible field slowed things down in base. in released form, it ages anything that comes close. respira was mainly for range/offensive moves.



Again, on the released form, one thing he won't be getting the chance to go into against a faster opponent that can one punch him .


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## Lucy75 (Nov 11, 2017)

Anyone with stats on the level of gremmy or his meteor would stomp him. The more hax characters like Lillie or Barragan should beat him too.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 11, 2017)

Lucy75 said:


> Anyone with stats on the level of gremmy or his meteor would stomp him. The more hax characters like Lillie or Barragan should beat him too.



True, except for Barragan. He definetly can win against him.


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## Regicide (Nov 11, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yeah ... It probably can't when Kata's faster than Soifon by about 2 times.


By our standards, this is a negligible difference.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> Again, on the released form, one thing he won't be getting the chance to go into against a faster opponent that can one punch him .


..From twenty meters away?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 11, 2017)

Soifon is mach 500, Kata is mach 2k. thats more than 2 times


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 11, 2017)

Kata's 3,7 times faster than Baraggan, not able to blitz, but Kata can turn the ground his opponent is standing in, and knock him before Baraggan does a thing.


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## Warlordgab (Nov 12, 2017)

I'm a little lost here. What are the arguments for Island lvl Kata?


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Katakuri was blitzing Luffy and Regi thinks he can't blitz Baragan


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> I'm a little lost here. What are the arguments for Island lvl Kata?



No arguments, just facts. The guy shits on Prime Chinjao.


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## Warlordgab (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> No arguments, just facts. The guy shits on Prime Chinjao.



How do we know that?


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## Vermilion Kn (Nov 12, 2017)

Kata is at the very least stronger than Doflamingo by a large margin. Luffy was no selling Dofla's attacks in G4 while Kata's attacks are devastating him even with his haki elastic body.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> How do we know that?



What ? Katakuri is the billion bounty monster, the guy that has never lost in his entire life and Big Mom's strongest fighter. Garp would never one shot these guys.


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Yeah let's see anyone come back from 10 million ton iron ball squashing them at 1.5 billion ton strength


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 12, 2017)

The problem is Barragan can cover a wide area with Respira and Katakuri's mortal life span wouldnt allow him to hit with anything.

The ground thing is moot since everyone walks on the air, and blitzing in base is unlikely do to time slowing field.

Aside from that he beats Shikai Zaraki, hilariously he would lost to Gremmy even if Kenpachi won in canon


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## Vermilion Kn (Nov 12, 2017)

Kata's mochi donuts are floating while he is using strentgh mochi. He can use it for aerial attacks.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 12, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> The problem is Barragan can cover a wide area with Respira and Katakuri's mortal life span wouldnt allow him to hit with anything.
> 
> The ground thing is moot since everyone walks on the air, and blitzing in base is unlikely do to time slowing field.
> 
> Aside from that he beats Shikai Zaraki, hilariously he would lost to Gremmy even if Kenpachi won in canon


He might beat Shikai Kenny if Ken is IC, otherwise hes going 2 hands and Patch off from the start and Kata will be in serious shit


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Yeah let's see anyone come back from 10 million ton iron ball squashing them at 1.5 billion ton strength



What's your point ?


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He might beat Shikai Kenny if Ken is IC, otherwise hes going 2 hands and Patch off from the start and Kata will be in serious shit



Kenpachi can't hurt Katakuri though


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## Vermilion Kn (Nov 12, 2017)

EoS Kenpachi ? 

If so he destroys Kata.


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## Warlordgab (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> What ? Katakuri is the billion bounty monster, the guy that has never lost in his entire life and Big Mom's strongest fighter. Garp would never one shot these guys.



So, Kata is getting those stats because of hype... that doesn't convince me

It sounds far more reasonable to say he's above the likes of Doflamingo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Kenpachi can't hurt Katakuri though


lol why not


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> lol why not


Katakuri is logia like. His CoO only further helps him to not get hit.


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> So, Kata is getting those stats because of hype... that doesn't convince me
> 
> It sounds far more reasonable to say he's above the likes of Doflamingo



He shits on Doflamingo. Also I don't get your point. There is not simply hype here, there are standings in the verse. Chinjao is but a scrub to the top tiers;


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## Regicide (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Katakuri was blitzing Luffy and Regi thinks he can't blitz Baragan


Unfortunately for you, if you can't put a number on it, it means jack and shit.

There's no shortage of works where given characters demonstrate overwhelming superiority to other characters who demonstrate overwhelming superiority to other characters and so on, but it's worthless because our ability to gauge that amounts to speculation at best.


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> What's your point ?


Katakuri would get one shot by prime garp easily.


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Katakuri is logia like. His CoO only further helps him to not get hit.


Kenpachi has reiatsu though.


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## Regicide (Nov 12, 2017)

The force of one's reiatsu has only ever been relevant to characters beneath one's own class.


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Yes and Katakuri bleeding from kong guns is below Kenpachi not getting hurt by the meteor impact.


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## Regicide (Nov 12, 2017)

No, like, I mean really beneath one's own class.

In regards to what we can actually quantify, I'm talking ratios like that of Aizen/Grimmjow.


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

It comes from his own energy.. You can't throw it out as a weapon just because the characters use it to crush fodders. That's clearly not the same type of reiatsu usage as what Aizen does if it makes towers fly into the air.
Quite many attacks are purely reiatsu based too.


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Keishin said:


> Kenpachi has reiatsu though.



Reiatsu is not CoA though


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Reiatsu is not CoA though


CoA is useless vs him because he's not logia That's wide AoE damage that he can't escape from with his lesser reach..


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## Regicide (Nov 12, 2017)

When did I throw it out as a weapon?

Obviously, it has value in combat; what I'm saying is that our ability to actually quantify that is limited, and context doesn't suggest that your ambient reiatsu (however much you want to flare it up at a given moment) can simply tuned up as much as you want.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

Keishin said:


> CoA is useless vs him because he's not logia That's wide AoE damage that he can't escape from with his lesser reach..



He operates like a Logia, you need Haki to hurt him.

AoE damage ?


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## Keishin (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> He operates like a Logia, you need Haki to hurt him.
> 
> AoE damage ?


 He said he uses his coo to dodge luffys attacks.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 12, 2017)

Hes a paramecia. You dont *need *haki to hit him, it was the same with that Snot guy from Dolfa's crew. Kenpachi has more than enough power to do it when Luffy could


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 12, 2017)

Warlordgab said:


> How do we know that?



At first we were all under the impression that Chinjao was a top tier, but then we learned Chinjao is not a top tier, so a yonko commander should easily get the scaling.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ho11ow (Nov 12, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> At first we were all under the impression that Chinjao was a top tier, but then *we learned* Chinjao is not a top tier, so a yonko commander should easily get the scaling.


Any reason?It take post-training prime Garp to beat him tho


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hes a paramecia. You dont *need *haki to hit him, it was the same with that Snot guy from Dolfa's crew. Kenpachi has more than enough power to do it when Luffy could



No. Katakuri is a special paramecia. He got his body split, bullets going through him, Pedro cutting his leg etc He operates like a Logia.


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## RandomLurker (Nov 12, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> No. Katakuri is a special paramecia. He got his body split, bullets going through him, Pedro cutting his leg etc He operates like a Logia.


He's not really intangible like a Logia, he can just shapeshift his entire body to such degree that it looks like he is. Basically he reads the future with CoO and pre-emptively changes parts of his body into mochi and moves them aside to avoid damage, which was explained in the last chapter. A Logia wouldn't need to go to that extent, they would simply transform into elemental form and avoid damage that way. What makes his fruit special is that unlike most every Paramecia that is based on a substance or material, his both changes his body into it like Luffy for example, and allows him to create the material like Magellan or Mr. 3 for example.


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## Blαck (Nov 12, 2017)

ho11ow said:


> Any reason?It take post-training prime Garp to beat him tho



Well iirc chinjao did say his grandson sai could do the same feat after he unlocked the dragon drill or whatever so either chinjao wasnt that strong or sai is a secret top tier

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dellinger (Nov 12, 2017)

RandomLurker said:


> He's not really intangible like a Logia, he can just shapeshift his entire body to such degree that it looks like he is. Basically he reads the future with CoO and pre-emptively changes parts of his body into mochi and moves them aside to avoid damage, which was explained in the last chapter. A Logia wouldn't need to go to that extent, they would simply transform into elemental form and avoid damage that way. What makes his fruit special is that unlike most every Paramecia that is based on a substance or material, his both changes his body into it like Luffy for example, and allows him to create the material like Magellan or Mr. 3 for example.



Aokiji did the same thing Katakuri was doing against Luffy.  Also I don't see how you beat my argument. We have multiple things with Katakuri acting Logia like without him shapeshifting.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 12, 2017)

@Keishin you can disagree all your life. It won't make you right.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 13, 2017)

Hes literally just using CoO to predict and dodge shit, he isnt logia like at all.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 13, 2017)

Proof of Katakuri having logia intang is literally all that's required here.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 13, 2017)

Katakuri doesn't have logia intag.


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Proof of Katakuri having logia intang is literally all that's required here.


I posted proof


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> where?


Well I mentioned the feats.

Bege shoots him with bullets, he operated like a logia. Pedro cut his leg, he operated like a Logia. Ichiji split him in half also


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 13, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Well I mentioned the feats.
> 
> Bege shoots him with bullets, he operated like a logia. Pedro cut his leg, he operated like a Logia. Ichiji split him in half also



those feats are retroactively discredited by how katakuri describes his power, he has to consciously dodge attacks like that.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> those feats are retroactively discredited by how katakuri describes his power, he has to consciously dodge attacks like that.



He has to dodge Haki attacks like that. Not regular attacks. I mean the guy legit split and took bullets like Logias do.


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> source?









Those feats are clearly logia like


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## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 13, 2017)

RLs post makes me think of Older Toguro from YYH

That fucker was creepy as hell though  (Both personality-wise and how his shapeshifting made him look)


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 13, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> Those feats are clearly logia like


those bullets got taken like Luffy takes bullets.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Vermilion Kn (Nov 13, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> those bullets got taken like Luffy takes bullets.



*Spoiler*: __ 








You can see Kata separating like a logia in this panel. No other substance paramecia has done this.


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

I don't understand why we keep on arguing about this. Oda introduced Katakuri as a logia first but decided to change his fruit to "special paramecia" because Mochi isn't a force of nature like the other Logia. Special paramecia are Logia that are not forces of nature.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 13, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> I don't understand why we keep on arguing about this. Oda introduced Katakuri as a logia first but decided to change his fruit to "special paramecia" because Mochi isn't a force of nature like the other Logia. Special paramecia are Logia that are not forces of nature.


We literally saw this last arc, its not new. Katakuri isnt a logia and doesnt have their intang


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 13, 2017)

Logias except Kizaru aren't intangible so it doesn't really matters.


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## Dellinger (Nov 13, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> We literally saw this last arc, its not new. Katakuri isnt a logia and doesnt have their intang



We saw Oda completely retconning Trebol's fruit. This is not the same though. The fruit still operates the same way.


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## Hachibi (Nov 13, 2017)

Katakuri's a logia in all but name. Mechanically he function the same as them

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## The World (Nov 13, 2017)

>still calling it intangibility when it's dispersibility............

Reactions: Agree 5


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## B Rabbit (Nov 13, 2017)

@OneSimpleAnime is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously at all in this top of conversation.

For OBD purposes Katakuri is logia. However for One Piece purposes. He's not.


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## B Rabbit (Nov 13, 2017)

However thats only for people around his level. Overwhelming attack difference won't be much.

Katakuri's precog gives him logia like properties.


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## B Rabbit (Nov 13, 2017)

And no that wasn't prime Garp that fought Don Chinjao.

Why is OBD the only place that can't seem to wrap their head around this.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 13, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> @OneSimpleAnime is an idiot and shouldn't be taken seriously at all in this top of conversation.
> 
> For OBD purposes Katakuri is logia. However for One Piece purposes. He's not.


Hm yea fuck you too. 

Hes not a logia and cant beat Kenny anyway if hes going all out from the start. The meteor is <Chinjao's feat and Kenny smashed that casually, and he took combined blast 3 times stronger than the meteor head on with his eyepatch still on.


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## Blαck (Nov 13, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hm yea fuck you too.
> 
> Hes not a logia and cant beat Kenny anyway if hes going all out from the start. The meteor is <Chinjao's feat and Kenny smashed that casually, and *he took combined blast 3 times stronger than the meteor head on with his eyepatch still on.*


When was this again? A little foggy on kennys fights


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## Keishin (Nov 13, 2017)

In all of those pics he has used his future sight in order to dodge


Blαck said:


> When was this again? A little foggy on kennys fights


6 gremmys going boom, takes 2 for the meteor.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## B Rabbit (Nov 13, 2017)

Which is hella impressive.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 13, 2017)

Keishin said:


> In all of those pics he has used his future sight in order to dodge
> 
> 6 gremmys going boom, takes 2 for the meteor.


which is more impressive since the meteor didnt kill either Gremmy and they implied they could survive it, the bombs were a straight up suicide attack to try and take him down.


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## ho11ow (Nov 13, 2017)

So Garp who look like aged past 30 yo still not in his prime?


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## Alita (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> which is more impressive since the meteor didnt kill either Gremmy and they implied they could survive it, the bombs were a straight up suicide attack to try and take him down.



In fairness tho Kenny did take alot of damage from the suicide move gremmy did.


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## Nox (Nov 14, 2017)

Keishin said:


> He said he uses his coo to dodge luffys attacks.



He naturally reacts to attacks like a logia (Pedro/Jinbe) but uses precognition to dodge armament (Luffy) infused attacks. Its because of the latter that Luffy thought him not only logia like but impervious to BH.


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## Lucy75 (Nov 14, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> True, except for Barragan. He definetly can win against him.



He's got no answer to his aging hax.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 14, 2017)

Katakuri's only not a logia when fighting against someone faster than him by a good amount(So he can't predict his way out).


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

Alita54 said:


> In fairness tho Kenny did take alot of damage from the suicide move gremmy did.


He was also still patched


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## Dellinger (Nov 14, 2017)

ho11ow said:


> So Garp who look like aged past 30 yo still not in his prime?



This is not a good point. Kizaru was 56 pre skip and he got even stronger during the TS.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sablés (Nov 14, 2017)

Kizaru's abilities are tied to his fruit

Garp only has muscle to rely and that strength deteriorates after a point.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Nov 14, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> This is not a good point. Kizaru was 56 pre skip and he got even stronger during the TS.



Wait what ? Where was that stated ?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

have we even seen post skip Kizaru?


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## Dellinger (Nov 14, 2017)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Wait what ? Where was that stated ?



Oda said that during an advertisement for film Z


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## FrozenFeathers (Nov 14, 2017)

Arguably beats Ulqiorra.
Stops at at Stark in terms of raw power.
Gets rekt by Barragan though.


Mr. Black Leg said:


> Katakuri one shots Barragan before Respira even comes out.


Calcs for Katakuri?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Jikaishin (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He was also still patched



That wouldn't have heal his injury, I still have trouble considering Kenpachi vs Gremmy, a victory for Kenpachi as he was one punch and two electric attack away from victory 

And to be perfectly honest against Yachiru!Gremmy (the one who truly uses his reality warping power like just killing the vizard or transform bones into cookies) unpatched Kenpachi is fodder


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

Jikaishin said:


> That wouldn't have heal his injury, I still have trouble considering Kenpachi vs Gremmy, a victory for Kenpachi as he was one punch and two electric attack away from victory
> 
> And to be perfectly honest against Yachiru!Gremmy (the one who truly uses his reality warping power like just killing the vizard or transform bones into cookies) unpatched Kenpachi is fodder


Gremmy was a shit reality warper, although Kenny having higher reiatsu helped him a lot since in Bleach it basically lets you ignore shit if youre stronger than someone. Unpatched Kenny would have done far better since he would have been substantially stronger


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## Regicide (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> since in Bleach it basically lets you ignore shit if youre stronger than someone.


It actually doesn't.

The only real instance of this we've observed in-series is Aizen versus Suzumebachi, which isn't a good example for a variety of reasons.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

Regicide said:


> It actually doesn't.
> 
> The only real instance of this we've observed in-series is Aizen versus Suzumebachi, which isn't a good example for a variety of reasons.


are there any cases in Bleach where hax hits people outside its weight class? One that isnt Tsukishima because hes bs


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## Sablés (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> are there any cases in Bleach where hax hits people outside its weight class? One that isnt Tsukishima because hes bs


kyouka suigetsu


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## Keishin (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> are there any cases in Bleach where hax hits people outside its weight class? One that isnt Tsukishima because hes bs


Hax affecting stronger characters:
aizen-yamamoto
askin-Ichigo
urahara-aizen
wonderweiss-yamamoto 
mimihagi-yhwach
nanana-aizen
fodder hollow negacion let aizens squad escape
Mayuri paralyzing kenpachi and fucking up Pernida
Gins god-killing spear
etc

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Regicide (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> are there any cases in Bleach where hax hits people outside its weight class? One that isnt Tsukishima because hes bs


NaNaNa and Aizen.

Askin and Ichigo.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

Regicide said:


> NaNaNa and Aizen.
> 
> Askin and Ichigo.


Askin was at least one of the strongest Sternritter and Ichigo is a fucking jobber.

the Aizen one is a good point though. 


Keishin said:


> nanana-aizen


that only worked cause Aizen was tied to the chair and Nanana had time to read his reiatsu


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## Xhominid (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> *Askin was at least one of the strongest Sternritter* and Ichigo is a fucking jobber.



He was? Compared to Bazz B, Lilotto and that Zombie girl, not a chance.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 14, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> He was? Compared to Bazz B, Lilotto and that Zombie girl, not a chance.


He was one of the Elites, hes way above people like them. Like what the fuck, Yhwach brought him to the Royal Realm with him and didnt drain his powers like the others.


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## Xhominid (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> He was one of the Elites, hes way above people like them. Like what the fuck, Yhwach brought him to the Royal Realm with him and didnt drain his powers like the others.



EDIT: Goddamn it, my brain acted dumb, thought you said NaNaNa and somehow pieced two different things together.


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## Divell (Nov 14, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Askin was at least one of the strongest Sternritter and Ichigo is a fucking jobber.
> 
> the Aizen one is a good point though.
> 
> that only worked cause Aizen was tied to the chair and Nanana had time to read his reiatsu


How is Ichigo a jobber?


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## g4snake108 (Nov 15, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Kizaru's abilities are tied to his fruit
> 
> Garp only has muscle to rely and that strength deteriorates after a point.


Not really.His physical stats matter just as much as his fruit.

We have 72 yo's with half a face breaking shit no young people have come close to. Pretty sure age in OP does not determine strength



ho11ow said:


> So Garp who look like aged past 30 yo still not in his prime?


He isn't necessarily in his prime. Rob lucci after TS is far above what he is pre-skip and he was 28 at that time...

DCJ isn't really a top tier,maybe a mid-high tier at best

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Nov 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


>


You laugh. But the only time he ever got off paneled was against one of the most haxed guys of the Sterritern.


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## FrozenFeathers (Nov 15, 2017)

Dellinger said:


> hahahahaha


So he has no calcs/feats?

Then he loses to Ulqiorra.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Clowe (Nov 15, 2017)

So he doesn't stand a chance against Adult Toshiro then?

I was thinking of making a thread for it given that they were both Island level but apparently I overstimated Kata?


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## Xhominid (Nov 15, 2017)

Clowe said:


> So he doesn't stand a chance against Adult Toshiro then?
> 
> I was thinking of making a thread for it given that they were both Island level but apparently I overstimated Kata?



He stands zero chance against Adult Hitsugaya. How his ability works, he should be able to completely disable Haki and his Devil Fruit Powers the second he's frozen and Hitsugaya has shown to be able to freeze a high speed massive object flying at him the second it touched his hand and even touching him can freeze him dead.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 15, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> He stands zero chance against Adult Hitsugaya. How his ability works, he should be able to completely disable Haki and his Devil Fruit Powers the second he's frozen and Hitsugaya has shown to be able to freeze a high speed massive object flying at him the second it touched his hand and even touching him can freeze him dead.


What speed does he get scaled to? I think Kata has the speed advantage. Combined with his pre-cog,he can hit hitsugaya and win. Freezing mochi is not going to do anything,its not like he is freezing the body of kata.


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## Xhominid (Nov 15, 2017)

12zoro said:


> What speed does he get scaled to? I think Kata has the speed advantage. Combined with his pre-cog,he can hit hitsugaya and win. Freezing mochi is not going to do anything,its not like he is freezing the body of kata.



I can't give any real speed feats but I would put him around the high ends but below Ichibei's speed feat.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 15, 2017)

12zoro said:


> What speed does he get scaled to? I think Kata has the speed advantage. Combined with his pre-cog,he can hit hitsugaya and win. Freezing mochi is not going to do anything,its not like he is freezing the body of kata.


Hitsu has way more range and his ice will fuck Kata over hard.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 15, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> I can't give any real speed feats but I would put him around the high ends but below Ichibei's speed feat.


So around mach 1200 right? Or was there a new calc after this? It's still pretty slow for katakuri. He reacts with precog to G4 who almost ran rings around DD who is around 1800 



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hitsu has way more range and his ice will fuck Kata over hard.



Having more range means nothing if you cannot hit the actual target. Katakuri doesn't need to hit hitsugaya physically to have him frozen. he needs to hit him with his mochi.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 15, 2017)

12zoro said:


> So around mach 1200 right? Or was there a new calc after this? It's still pretty slow for katakuri. He reacts with precog to G4 who almost ran rings around DD who is around 1800
> 
> 
> 
> Having more range means nothing if you cannot hit the actual target. Katakuri doesn't need to hit hitsugaya physically to have him frozen. he needs to hit him with his mochi.


Hitsu can use his power over kilometers and Kata cant blitz him, dude cant do shit to Hitsugaya. Any mochi that gets close is frozen.


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## Rax (Nov 15, 2017)

Dogtooth isn't beating Barragan


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## Steven (Nov 15, 2017)

Rax said:


> Dogtooth isn't beating Barragan


^


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## B Rabbit (Nov 15, 2017)

Clowe said:


> So he doesn't stand a chance against Adult Toshiro then?
> 
> I was thinking of making a thread for it given that they were both Island level but apparently I overstimated Kata?


Its up for debate. However majority of people would give Katakuri island level dc/durabilty.

Hell most people would give it to G4 Luffy and Awakened Doflamingo. Its just its hard to put the nail in the coffin.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hitsu can use his power over kilometers and Kata cant blitz him, dude cant do shit to Hitsugaya. Any mochi that gets close is frozen.


Which is only for a fixed amount of time,till his powers last(not sure whether he has a time limit,can't remember it). It would still hit.Katakuri doesn't need to blitz him,he needs to dodge him till he powers down/weakens .Katakuri easily scales to Ace's stamina of having fought for 5 days straight,something hitsugaya isn't coming close too.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 15, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Hitsu can use his power over kilometers and Kata cant blitz him, dude cant do shit to Hitsugaya. Any mochi that gets close is frozen.



Wait, what?

Since when did Hitsu started blitzing characters from kilometers away? And why the hell Katakuri would be kilometers away anyway? Standard OBD distance is 20 meter.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Its up for debate. However majority of people would give Katakuri island level dc/durabilty.
> 
> Hell most people would give it to G4 Luffy and Awakened Doflamingo. Its just its hard to put the nail in the coffin.


They probably are. The proof of burden is on people claiming DCJ is top tier and hence many do not scale up to him. They are the ones making the positive claim.


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> They probably are. The proof of burden is on people claiming DCJ is top tier and hence many do not scale up to him. They are the ones making the positive claim.


You realize that saying kata strength scales to DCJ is also a positive claim...


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> Since when did Hitsu started blitzing characters from kilometers away? And why the hell Katakuri would be kilometers away anyway? Standard OBD distance is 20 meter.


That's not what he is saying. He is saying hitsu's AOE is well enough to catch dogtooth in his ice and dogtooth isn't fast enough to blitz before then.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> You realize that saying kata strength scales to DCJ is also a positive claim...


Yes. A first mate of a yonkou with a bounty twice of what DCJ has achieved in his entire career ,who is tagging G4 and matching physically to him when non-bloodlust g3 attacks got rid of DCJ is more than enough to justify him being higher than DCJ .

EDIT-Not even putting in context DCJ himself stating Sai could do the same feat he did...


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes. A first mate of a yonkou with a bounty twice of what DCJ has achieved in his entire career ,who is tagging G4 and matching physically to him when non-bloodlust g3 attacks got rid of DCJ is more than enough to justify him being higher than DCJ .
> 
> EDIT-Not even putting in context DCJ himself stating Sai could do the same feat he did...


Ok? G4 couldn't even put down a doflamingo with his organs fried via multiple hits and needed a second go.

Katakuri can be a huge threat but not neccesarily as strong as dc... 

And maybe sai can with training by eos? Elizabeto has one of the highest calc one shot moves as well and is relative fodder too


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Ok? G4 couldn't even put down a doflamingo with his organs fried via multiple hits and needed a second go.
> 
> Katakuri can be a huge threat but not neccesarily as strong as dc...
> 
> And maybe sai can with training by eos? Elizabeto has one of the highest calc one shot moves as well and is relative fodder too


That speaks more of Doffy's durability rather than G4's weakness. Why exactly is doffy underestimated?

So you want to go against everything the manga states in terms of power scaling to try to justify katakuri being weaker physically than DCJ? Let's also say big mom is actually weaker than Vista while we are at it,maybe her DF makes her "a real threat"

Proof of burden that Sai gets stronger with training by EOS is again upon you then. For now, Sai has what it takes to break the ice continent according to the man who has actually done it and knows how tough of a task that is.


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> That speaks more of Doffy's durability rather than G4's weakness. Why exactly is doffy underestimated?


doffy doesn't scale to anything island level, and neither does G4. Dofla is no where near a physical fighter, and has HIS FUCKING ORGANS FRIEND AND MANGLED.



> So you want to go against everything the manga states in terms of power scaling to try to justify katakuri being weaker physically than DCJ?


No, I do accept the scaling but it is no where near fool proof as people try and suggest.



> Let's also say big mom is actually weaker than Vista while we are at it,maybe her DF makes her "a real threat"


Except that Yonko portrayal > ambiguous first mate portrayal (we don't accept Sabo as island level last I checked and he has better physical feats), and Big Mom has ridiculous physical feats in high numbers. So shit argument is shit.


> Proof of burden that Sai gets stronger with training by EOS is again upon you then.


No. I said it's possible that he could one day attain that power, that is not the posituve claim that he will, and Oda clearly added the comment of succession for a reason so evidence is in favor that he will reach DCJ power eventually. When is anyone's guess.


> For now, Sai has what it takes to break the ice continent according to the man who has actually done it and knows how tough of a task that is.


No, he has the same move that DCJ used, clearly not on the same level that would make Garp need to train by busting mountains, or slightly struggle to overpower him. 

and once again, fodder having strong ass one shot moves is not something new to One Piece.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> That's not what he is saying. He is saying hitsu's AOE is well enough to catch dogtooth in his ice and dogtooth isn't fast enough to blitz before then.



Did something like this ever happened in manga? Hitsu immobilizing his opponent via his aoe & rendering them useless?

And this is not counting that Katakuri is 4 times faster, has precog.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Also vsbattle put Katakuri as country level.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> doffy doesn't scale to anything island level, and neither does G4. Dofla is no where near a physical fighter, and has HIS FUCKING ORGANS FRIEND AND MANGLED.


And how do you get that Doffy is nowhere near Island level durability? He is better in every way than DCJ and DCJ prime or not,is not oneshotting doffy,ever. Ironic that his bird cage itself has island level DC though not in the way of the OBD in the same arc you say he isn't near island..



> No, I do accept the scaling but it is no where near fool proof as people try and suggest.


It is ,but people try to downplay every feat. Elizabello having a huge one hit move in the double digit megatons and freaking barto's barrier being able to casually tank it is enough proof to supplement the notions that OP high tiers are really outgrowing the city level ceiling that is being placed here in the OBD.


> Except that Yonko portrayal > ambiguous first mate portrayal (we don't accept Sabo as island level last I checked and he has better physical feats), and Big Mom has ridiculous physical feats in high numbers. So shit argument is shit.


There is nothing ambiguous about katakuri being one of the best. His bounty is the highest we know till know,like double everything previous.Also falls in line perfectly with other bounty comparisons in OP(read Ace,jinbei being roughly same after Jinbei's bounty freeze for being a shichibukai was removed,not the joke bounties). BM has the same physical feats that Ace portrayed when he visited Drum island,though besides the point.



> No. I said it's possible that he could one day attain that power, that is not the posituve claim that he will, and Oda clearly added the comment of succession for a reason so evidence is in favor that he will reach DCJ power eventually. When is anyone's guess.


The panel states he is the successor since he now has the technique that can break even the ice continent and breaking DCJ's head,not the other way round.



> No, he has the same move that DCJ used, clearly not on the same level that would make Garp need to train by busting mountains, or slightly struggle to overpower him.


And there are plenty of reasons to not consider that Garp as the prime Garp we actually know. One example I gave is of Rob lucci who should be multiple times stronger than pre-skip version,same for croc,Kizaru. Age does not matter when it comes to people becoming stronger in OP.they get stronger regardless of whether they are in their mid thirties,40's or 50's.


> and once again, fodder having strong ass one shot moves is not something new to One Piece.


Like? Elizabello's shot is blocked by barto.So it is not a strong ass move that people above him are not capable of. He just gets an upgrade from shit tier to a decent tier.


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Did something like this ever happened in manga? Hitsu immobilizing his opponent via his aoe & rendering them useless?
> 
> And this is not counting that Katakuri is 4 times faster, has precog.


Hitsu as always had a large area of effect and had some real good aoe vs thor quincy. His ice as an adult nullifies abilities and only got broken cause thor's miracle is ridiculous. 

Idk that 4 times is enough for him to be lol'ing at hitsu's range even with precog


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Idk that 4 times is enough for him to be lol'ing at hitsu's range even with precog


A character faster than hitsugaya(G4) isn't tagging katakuri even from close range when he is using his precog. What is making you say that the slower hitsugaya is going to tag him?


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## Dr. White (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> A character faster than hitsugaya(G4) isn't tagging katakuri even from close range when he is using his precog. What is making you say that the slower hitsugaya is going to tag him?


G4 did tag him.

Learn the difference between out of verse and in verse analysis.

Aoe is different than particle speed.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> G4 did tag him.
> 
> Learn the difference between out of verse and in verse analysis.
> 
> Aoe is different than particle speed.


lol what? Panels please.

Again,what? A moves slower than B. B is slower than C. C is not getting caught by A. Be it Aoe or anything. It's still slower. Katakuri just does not move because he can adjust his shape. Just moving back ,along the direction of the aoe attack means the attack will never reach him.


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## Dellinger (Nov 16, 2017)

WB reached his primes strength during his 50's. Why the heck are people still arguing about that ?


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Hitsu as always had a large area of effect and had some real good aoe vs thor quincy. His ice as an adult nullifies abilities and only got broken cause thor's miracle is ridiculous.



It isn't anything special than other ice users.  Katakuri has haki to counter his freezing ability. He can break out of ice just like Mingo did. It's not a problem unless the freezing reaches his bone. And with haki it's extremely unlikely.

Hitsu loses before he even enters adult mode. In adult mode it will be high difficulty fight in favor of Katakuri.

He never showed to be able to freeze someone from kilometers away so I don't know why that was even brought in.



> Idk that 4 times is enough for him to be lol'ing at hitsu's range even with precog



Katakuri smacks Hitsu's face before he even manages to attack. In unlikely case Hitsu manages to attack Katakuri dodges & smacks Hitsu's face.


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## Sablés (Nov 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> In adult mode it will be high difficulty fight in favor of Katakuri.


No it wouldn't. Beating Hitsugaya before he reaches that state is perfectly doable. Once he's in it? Fat chance of beating him.

Adult Hitsugaya has comparable speed and can one-shot him. Gerard has demonstrated far greater mass and vitality than Katakuri and he was frozen nigh-instantly. Hitsugaya would only require a wave of the hand to kill Katakuri in that state.

Hitsugaya was laughably stronger than a character with higher DC than what Katakuri scales to.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Blαck (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> No it wouldn't. Beating Hitsugaya before he reaches that state is perfectly doable. Once he's in it? Fat chance of beating him.
> 
> Adult Hitsugaya has comparable speed and can one-shot him. Gerard has demonstrated far greater mass and vitality than Katakuri and he was frozen nigh-instantly. Hitsugaya would only require a wave of the hand to kill Katakuri in that state.
> 
> Hitsugaya was laughably stronger than a character with higher DC than what Katakuri scales to.



What are adult hitsugayas stats?


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## Sablés (Nov 16, 2017)

Blαck said:


> What are adult hitsugayas stats?


Island+ DC. Low triple digits.
Mach 1300
Hax negation
Durability should be city-level since I don't remember too much from him. I'd have to check.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Blαck (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Island+ DC. Low triple digits.
> Mach 1300
> Hax negation
> Durability should be city-level since I don't remember too much from him. I'd have to check.


That hax negation was a real thing? Shit, might be time to reread that whole arc


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## CrownedEagle (Nov 16, 2017)

W.T.F peoples seriously think that Katakuri stand a chance against Adult Hitsu, he freeze him right away before Katakuri understand a damn thing, hell i don't even certain that Katakuri can beat Kid Hitusgaya, let alone his adult form.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> No it wouldn't. Beating Hitsugaya before he reaches that state is perfectly doable. Once he's in it? Fat chance of beating him.
> 
> Adult Hitsugaya has comparable speed and can one-shot him. Gerard has demonstrated far greater mass and vitality than Katakuri and he was frozen nigh-instantly. Hitsugaya would only require a wave of the hand to kill Katakuri in that state.
> 
> Hitsugaya was laughably stronger than a character with higher DC than what Katakuri scales to.



Assuming Mach 1300 then twice the speed & precog on a much higher level. He sees the future to  a point that he could explain the whole conversation between Bege & Jigra. The moment he sees Hitsu trying to freeze him he will either dodge or use Haki.

Not to mention the 3 second BS Hitsu which will be enough to beat him. 

Katakuri is the FM of Meme. And Yonko FM's can tango with Admirals as we have seen from Rayleigh, Marco. Even weaker characters like Jozu can keep Admirals in bay. I may be hesitant to scale him to Prime Chinjao but he is not weaker than Hitsu. 

But to be honest, I don't see the fight going that far. Kata will win before Hitsu goes to adult mode. So there's that. 

Whatever.


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## Sablés (Nov 16, 2017)

Well, we agree Hitsu gets his ass kicked before it comes to that so yeah :shrugs

How strong is Katakuri anyway. Cross versus wise. I've been reading shit that makes him seem like sub-DD tier and that doesn't sound right.

Shouldn't he be Marco's peer or are the BM pirates just that shit?


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## Blαck (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Well, we agree Hitsu gets his ass kicked before it comes to that so yeah :shrugs
> 
> How strong is Katakuri anyway. Cross versus wise. I've been reading shit that makes him seem like sub-DD tier and that doesn't sound right.
> 
> Shouldn't he be Marco's peer or are the BM pirates just that shit?



His portrayal has been damn good, fighting and murking gear4 easily(luffy got in one decent hit but that was cis). Haki shitting one crackers who even luffy commented was better than doffys. 

He just lacks glamorous dc feats really.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Island+ DC. Low triple digits.
> Mach 1300
> Hax negation
> Durability should be city-level since I don't remember too much from him. I'd have to check.


He should have island dura, he physically slashed through Hoffnung which tanked hits from Kenny and Thor tried to crush Hitsu between his hands and wasn't successful


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> How strong is Katakuri anyway. Cross versus wise. I've been reading shit that makes him seem like sub-DD tier and that doesn't sound right.
> 
> Shouldn't he be Marco's peer or are the BM pirates just that shit?



It's cause he is fighting Luffy & not any other high tier or top tier. Same reason Sabo despite having no impressive feat looks stronger cause he fought a Admiral & survived. 

He showed,

Haki mastery. 

Advanced level of Observation haki.
Second level of Armament haki.
Fruit mastery.

Awakened his DF.
Because of his advanced observation haki & special paramecia fruit his fruit basically become a logia.
Can create Mochi out of thin air & attack opponent from any place. 
Physical stat

Durable enough to withstand G4 slaughter fest with minimal injury.
Strong enough to send G4 Luffy flying. 
He is far stronger than DD. He is superior in every category. Shonen logic also says the WCI Luffy > Dressrosa Luffy. 

People want to scale him to Prime chinjao drill feat. While I think Katakuri > Prime Chinjao I am reluctant to scale him to it. Nonetheless he should be low level island at least imo.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> No it wouldn't. Beating Hitsugaya before he reaches that state is perfectly doable. Once he's in it? Fat chance of beating him.
> 
> Adult Hitsugaya has comparable speed and can one-shot him. Gerard has demonstrated far greater mass and vitality than Katakuri and he was frozen nigh-instantly. Hitsugaya would only require a wave of the hand to kill Katakuri in that state.
> 
> Hitsugaya was laughably stronger than a character with higher DC than what Katakuri scales to.


Yes he can,even in his adult form.

Adult hitsugaya has shit speed when compared to what katakuri can react to. You are assuming that kata is 1800 or somewhere in that range when he is *not getting tagged by people in that speed tier. *No way is Hitsugaya tagging him.

And yet,people fail to give proof why katakuri isn't island level in DC. Again,you are the ones saying DCJ prime is top tier and hence katakuri should not scale to him. The onus is on you to prove that DCJ prime is top tier. Prove that first then try these little jokes.


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## OrangePeel (Nov 16, 2017)

kata can't even touch adult hitsu without getting lol rekt since gerard (who is way above kata) got frozen to the bone when he tried. Hitsu can also fly, and has huge aoe. The speed part is irrelevant hitsu is mach 1300+ and kata is mach 1900+, not even 2x the difference, but ofc hitsu would loose since he doesn't start in adult form.


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## Xhominid (Nov 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> It isn't anything special than other ice users. Katakuri has haki to counter his freezing ability. He can break out of ice just like Mingo did. It's not a problem unless the freezing reaches his bone. And with haki it's extremely unlikely.
> 
> Hitsu loses before he even enters adult mode. In adult mode it will be high difficulty fight in favor of Katakuri.
> 
> He never showed to be able to freeze someone from kilometers away so I don't know why that was even brought in.



He's not beating Kid Hitsugaya before he turns into an Adult...

Kid Hitsugaya was still able to stay around against Gerard just like Byakuya and Kenpachi and even showed he was able to hold an entire part of the transformed Royal Palace from falling into the Soul Society(which are the size of large cities/small islands themselves), including taking quite a few hits from Gerard in that form as well.

Kid Hitsugaya can and will stay around until Adult shows up and no, Katakuri cannot win against Adult Hitsugaya...PERIOD.

As for your last comment:


*Flash-Freezing*: In his matured form, Hitsugaya can flash-freeze extremely large objects at a distance with a simple hand gesture; this also extends to objects that his sword cuts. Additionally, anything that he freezes will have all of its functions and abilities negated. If anyone touches Hitsugaya while he is in this form, they will be flash-frozen as well. (Unnamed)

 (四界氷結, _Four World Freeze_): In his matured form, Hitsugaya can freeze all matter in front of him after four seconds of building up his power.
Which I even told you Hitsugaya did when Gerard threw his massive shield at him and Hitsugaya froze it in midair and even Gerard grabbing him froze him solid. 
And his main attack shown can freeze you again if you allow him to build up his power(which given Hitsugaya usually is pretty serious unlike most Captains), it's a guaranteed loss for anyone not on his level.

Katakuri gets absolutely spanked by both Kid and Adult Hitsugaya, the adult version as badly as...Yamamoto would spank someone.


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## Xhominid (Nov 16, 2017)

OrangePeel said:


> kata can't even touch adult hitsu without getting lol rekt since gerard (who is way above kata) got frozen to the bone when he tried. Hitsu can also fly, and has huge aoe. The speed part is irrelevant hitsu is mach 1300+ and kata is mach 1900+, not even 2x the difference, but ofc hitsu would loose since he doesn't start in adult form.



Again, I would have to disagree on Kid Hitsugaya losing to Katakuri at all before Adult comes to play and in most cases, Hitsugaya actually has a pretty good chance to beat Katakuri, especially considering how he has shown how his ice works when he's being smart(when he lost his Bankai against Bazz-B, he showed off some pretty good ways to use his ice in conjunction to Rangiku's Shikai but I believe he can easily replicate it without Rangiku's help in Bankai.


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## Regicide (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Adult hitsugaya has shit speed when compared to what katakuri can react to. You are assuming that kata is 1800 or somewhere in that range when he is *not getting tagged by people in that speed tier.*


Doesn't matter. We only work in concrete numbers.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> He's not beating Kid Hitsugaya before he turns into an Adult...
> 
> Kid Hitsugaya was still able to stay around against Gerard just like Byakuya and Kenpachi and even showed he was able to hold an entire part of the transformed Royal Palace from falling into the Soul Society(which are the size of large cities/small islands themselves), including taking quite a few hits from Gerard in that form as well.
> 
> ...



Since you wrote a big post I feel like I have to agree. Though I am only agreeing cause you have a good set. I wouldn't otherwise. 

That's a fact.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Doesn't matter. We only work in concrete numbers.


Then it is slightly retarded tbh. And even if you are working in concrete numbers,1300<1800. So if 1800 cannot tag someone,1300 is not going to,ever.


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## Regicide (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And even if you are working in concrete numbers,1300<1800.




Okay, let me rephrase. Our modus operandi is based on what values we can actually determine through the means available to us, but by nature of our limited window of information, said values shouldn't be assumed to be perfect or exact. There's a margin of error in play.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Okay, let me rephrase. Our modus operandi is based on what values we can actually determine through the means available to us, but by nature of our limited window of information, said values shouldn't be assumed to be perfect or exact. There's a margin of error in play.


Yes,Of course. So that works in both ways. Maybe hitsugaya is faster than 1300 by an un-quantifiable value. But so is G4 faster than 1800 by an un-quantifiable value. And kata is faster than G4 and is not tagged by him.

 So the only thing we can definitely say is,hitsugaya's base speed scaling is less than what would be required to tag katakuri. So unless,there is any other definitive proof that hitsu is faster,anybody saying hitsu tagging kata has to prove that he actually can since they are making this positive claim.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> So the only thing we can definitely say is,hitsugaya's base speed scaling is less than what would be required to tag katakuri. So unless,there is any other definitive proof that hitsu is faster,anybody saying hitsu tagging kata has to prove that he actually can since they are making this positive claim.



This isn't internally consistent logic.

You can't simultaneously suggest that Histugaya is unquantifiably above 1300 while Katakuri is unquantifiably above 1800 to prove that Katakuri>Hitsugaya because by the definitions you just provided they're both unquantifiable.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> This isn't internally consistent logic.
> 
> You can't simultaneously suggest that Histugaya is unquantifiably above 1300 while Katakuri is unquantifiably above 1800 to prove that Katakuri>Hitsugaya because by the definitions you just provided they're both unquantifiable.


Those were 2 separate points,if you misunderstood ,my bad.

Either both are unquantifiably above "x" value and thus we won't be getting any comparisons at all OR

The only thing we can say with the available feats is hitsu scales to mach 1300 ,kata scales as someone who is not getting tagged by 1800 speeds. So,no way of kata being tagged/inconclusive result. 

In either case,hitsugaya is not tagging katakuri.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Those were 2 separate points,if you misunderstood ,my bad.
> 
> Either both are unquantifiably above "x" value and thus we won't be getting any comparisons at all OR
> 
> ...


thats not how it works. Katakuri not being tagged by mach 1800 characters can only get him so far when Hitsugaya has a massive range advantage that will let him hit Kata. Dude isnt dodging someone who can freeze chunks of a city and control the weather


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## Sablés (Nov 16, 2017)

Hitsugaya =/= Luffy

The former has better range and power so you cant equate dodging a melee fighter like Luffy to mean he'd handle Hitsugaya with similar ease

Reactions: Agree 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> thats not how it works. Katakuri not being tagged by mach 1800 characters can only get him so far when Hitsugaya has a massive range advantage that will let him hit Kata. Dude isnt dodging someone who can freeze chunks of a city and control the weather





Sablés said:


> Hitsugaya =/= Luffy
> 
> The former has better range and power so you cant equate dodging a melee fighter like Luffy to mean he'd handle Hitsugaya with similar ease


Kata already knows where and how much aoe is getting hit and he adjusts his shape according to that. g2 luffy fist<g4 kong fist. Its pretty much the ability to look into the future and decide how to tackle it. 

Are you saying ywach should not be able to "see" hitsugaya's attack and dodge them because he only dodged a sword slash as one is aoe? And the aoe of hitsugaya is not by any means city level or even close to it. the best feat I remember is of him freezing thor/shield upon contact,not environmental manipulation that anything near him froze. If there is no contact,katakuri is not getting frozen.And katakuri is dodging anything trying to come in contact. He just has to outlast the adult form at max.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Kata already knows where and how much aoe is getting hit and he adjusts his shape according to that. g2 luffy fist<g4 kong fist. Its pretty much the ability to look into the future and decide how to tackle it.
> 
> Are you saying ywach should not be able to "see" hitsugaya's attack and dodge them because he only dodged a sword slash as one is aoe? And the aoe of hitsugaya is not by any means city level or even close to it. the best feat I remember is of him freezing thor/shield upon contact,not environmental manipulation that anything near him froze. If there is no contact,katakuri is not getting frozen.And katakuri is dodging anything trying to come in contact. He just has to outlast the adult form at max.


During the Harribel fight we see him controlling a cloud formation covering a good chunk, if not all, of Karakura town. That version of Hitsu is way way weaker than his adult form

Reactions: Agree 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> During the Harribel fight we see him controlling a cloud formation covering a good chunk, if not all, of Karakura town. That version of Hitsu is way way weaker than his adult form


He does not hax-freeze it does he?His hax is upon contact and you cannot say it applies to all other things.


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## Sablés (Nov 16, 2017)

Doesnt matter if he knows the attack is coming when he cant do anything to stop it. Or has Katakuri demonstrated maneuvers that span city bocks? Does he have some way to harm Hitsugaya without physical contact?

I cant reasonably understand how Yhwach is relevant when he's faster, stronger, more versatile and has superior abilities by a ridiculous margin whereas Katakuri is none of these. So uh, nice strawman


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> He does not hax-freeze it does he?His hax is upon contact and you cannot say it applies to all other things.


His hax freeze applies to all his ice


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Sablés said:


> Doesnt matter if he knows the attack is coming when he cant do anything to stop it. Or has Katakuri demonstrated maneuvers that span city bocks? Does he have some way to harm Hitsugaya without physical contact?
> 
> I cant reasonably understand how Yhwach is relevant when he's faster, stronger, more versatile and has superior abilities by a ridiculous margin whereas Katakuri is none of these. So uh, nice strawman


Has hitsugaya demonstrated to tag mach 1800 characters?

Nice try trying to ask for proof from one side when you cannot back up your own statements. Kata has not shown it since he has not faced a city block attack.

Yes he does. Through mochi. He is an awakened df user. He doesnt need to hit him physically. And the first thing about haki is the definition that it is like an "invisible armor" as mentioned by Rayleigh. He isn't touching him physically even if he hits him right in the face. See the elephant swing back when Ray explains it to better understand haki.

And yes,I say katakuri runs backwards from the attack and keeps ding it till hitsugaya's adult mode runs out. Then smacks him right in the face to win.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

Hitsugaya has a technique that insta freeze everything it a certain area without warning, and his ice blocks magical abilities too. And the one where he makes those ice flowers rain and freeze things on contact.

The range of his weather manipulation is supposed to be 12km

Reactions: Agree 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Hitsugaya has a technique that insta freeze everything it a certain area without warning, and his ice blocks magical abilities too.


Where did you get that from? I may not remember all bleach things,but I cannot recall anything close to what you are saying. he requires prep of 4 seconds or something if memory server.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Where did you get that from? I may not remember all bleach things,but I cannot recall anything close to what you are saying. he requires prep of 4 seconds or something if memory server.


its 4 steps, not seconds.


lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> Hitsugaya has a technique that insta freeze everything it a certain area without warning, and his ice blocks magical abilities too. And the one where he makes those ice flowers rain and freeze things on contact.
> 
> The range of his weather manipulation is supposed to be 12km


was it 12km? i couldnt remember how big his range was


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> its 4 steps, not seconds.
> 
> was it 12km? i couldnt remember how big his range was


Still more than plenty of time for a character who is basically faster than you to start with.


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## Regicide (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> So the only thing we can definitely say is,hitsugaya's base speed scaling is less than what would be required to tag katakuri


Uhhh, no, that's not definitive at all. That's the whole point.

The numbers we have aren't the end all, be all of the matter, because there's an inherent level of imprecision in how we obtain many of them. You need a very substantial gap to be able to safely say that a given character is distinctly superior to another in a certain area, and that's not the case here.

The two speeds are, for our purposes, within the same general range.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Still more than plenty of time for a character who is basically faster than you to start with.


no, Kata isnt even twice as fast as Hitsu. Hes just gonna fly into the air and avoid the dude while spamming ice till he gets his adult form. Then hes gonna flash freeze the area and its GG


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## Regicide (Nov 16, 2017)

Never mind that I can't imagine how a difference of this magnitude, were we to take them perfectly at face value, would be that helpful in the first place.

One of the combatants in question routinely throws out wide-spanning AoE attacks.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> was it 12km? i couldnt remember how big his range was



Is 24km in diameter.

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Informative 1


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Never mind that I can't imagine how a difference of this magnitude, were we to take them perfectly at face value, would be that helpful in the first place.
> 
> One of the combatants in question routinely throws out wide-spanning AoE attacks.


a casual swing from his Shikai made a fuck ton of ice, and he instantly made a bridge to catch Gerard while in bankai and that dude was massive.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Catalyst75 said:


> We know Roshi's 100% form qualifies as a transformation that can increase one's power level, and the Raditz fight established that attacks like the Kamehameha multiply in power when they are charged up.  E.g. Goku's 416 jumping to 1030 with Kamehameha, and Makankosappo taking Piccolo from 408 to 1330.  And recall that Piccolo blew up the Moon _without _using either Masenko or Makankosappo.





Regicide said:


> Uhhh, no, that's not definitive at all. That's the whole point.
> 
> The numbers we have aren't the end all, be all of the matter, because there's an inherent level of imprecision in how we obtain many of them. You need a very substantial gap to be able to safely say that a given character is distinctly superior to another in a certain area, and that's not the case here.
> 
> The two speeds are, for our purposes, within the same general range.





OneSimpleAnime said:


> no, Kata isnt even twice as fast as Hitsu. Hes just gonna fly into the air and avoid the dude while spamming ice till he gets his adult form. Then hes gonna flash freeze the area and its GG


Nope,and that is where both of you would be wrong.

You say the speed tier is the same and then try to apply the NF defined rules of blitz saying he isn't 10x faster so he would be tagged. But what you guys are forgetting is how the manga version has actually depicted Katakuri.

Katakuri is not getting tagged by a 1800+ character. That means even if he is mach 1800 himself in speed,for all intents and purposes,anyone below 1800 is not tagging him,*because that is shown. *Calculating with this logic in mind would lead to speedstacking hence we are not getting a numerical value out of this feat,but he remains a character who is dodging anything slower than this.

So any claims of applying the logic that since he isn't 10x faster,he would be tagged is directly in contradiction to katakuri's portrayal. Sure,if you want to nerf him and then say he will be tagged,yes. Otherwise no.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Nope,and that is where both of you would be wrong.
> 
> You say the speed tier is the same and then try to apply the NF defined rules of blitz saying he isn't 10x faster so he would be tagged. But what you guys are forgetting is how the manga version has actually depicted Katakuri.
> 
> ...


Thats how to OBD works buddy, He might be faster but theres no higher scaling for him than mach 1800.


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## Regicide (Nov 16, 2017)

Who said anything about blitzing or not blitzing?

The point being made was that we shouldn't treat our data as if it's absolute, because it's not.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Thats how to OBD works buddy, He might be faster but theres no higher scaling for him than mach 1800.


Yup,but that also means that he is not getting tagged since his dodging is not based solely on speed,but also on his ability to see the future and make adjustments.NF rules are only for direct speed comparisons.

So,the only characters who would be tagging him would be people with >1800 speed.Not someone below that.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

It's not an OBD rule, a character just isn't going to be able to dodge that kind of AoE if he isn't significantly faster, unless he is in melee distance or far enough to have a buffer.

Since he can't touch Hitsugaya he can only stay away and run until he gets cornered.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

Regicide said:


> Who said anything about blitzing or not blitzing?
> 
> The point being made was that we shouldn't treat our data as if it's absolute, because it's not.


And I am not treating the data as absolute. Lets put this in a different way-has G4 luffy even tagged katakuri till now if he is "stable"?No.

Would you say that if his aoe was increased by x100,he would be able to tag katakuri? If yes,then you need to prove it. If no,then hitsugaya isn't tagging him


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> It's not an OBD rule, a character just isn't going to be able to dodge that kind of AoE if he isn't significantly faster, unless he is in melee distance or far enough to have a buffer.
> 
> Since he can't touch Hitsugaya he can only stay away and run until he gets cornered.


He is faster+he is seeing the future. He knows how much aoe the other's attack is going to have. I tell you I am going to throw a grenade 1 feet from you and you can run faster than the explosion of the grenade. Knowing this,we start the experiment when I throw the grenade. Would you ever get caught into it?You are basically running faster in the oppositre direction. That is what I am saying kata will continue doing.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> He is faster+he is seeing the future. He knows how much aoe the other's attack is going to have. I tell you I am going to throw a grenade 1 feet from you and you can run faster than the explosion of the grenade. Knowing this,we start the experiment when I throw the grenade. Would you ever get caught into it?You are basically running faster in the oppositre direction. That is what I am saying kata will continue doing.



This is "Katakuri has to run 100m every time Hitsugaya moves his hand"


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> This is "Katakuri has to run 100m every time Hitsugaya moves his hand"


Nope. This is katakuri has to move just enough everytime hitsugaya moves his hand so as to be just outside of the aoe which is slower than katakuri's movement itself.And he already knows how much because of precog.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Nope. This is katakuri has to move just enough everytime hitsugaya moves his hand so as to be just outside of the aoe which is slower than katakuri's movement itself.And he already knows how much because of precog.



He is runing 50-100m every time Hitsugaya moves his arm, his precog is only going to say "run away as fast as you can"


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## g4snake108 (Nov 16, 2017)

lol 4th dimension reiatsu said:


> He is runing 50-100m every time Hitsugaya moves his arm, his precog is only going to say "run away as fast as you can"


Why? His precog is so tuned that is why it enables him to know where the hit will be and adjust his shape all the while casually chatting with luffy about how he had wasted his chance now that he was back.


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## lol 4th dimension reiatsu (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Why? His precog is so tuned that is why it enables him to know where the hit will be and adjust his shape all the while casually chatting with luffy about how he had wasted his chance now that he was back.



The AoE is 100m in range or more for each slash, from the middle of it by the time he is out of the AoE of the first attack the place where he was runing has already started to freeze because of the second slash.

Because Hitsugaya can just spam the attacks in his general direction until he can't sense Katakuri's energy anymore.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 16, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Those were 2 separate points,if you misunderstood ,my bad.
> 
> Either both are unquantifiably above "x" value and thus we won't be getting any comparisons at all OR
> 
> ...



They're the same point.

Mach 1800 cannot tag Katakuri

Mach 1300 cannot tag Hitsugaya

What you're doing is saying that Katakuri's unquantifiably >1800 speed is better than Hitsugaya's unquantifiably >1300 speed by employing a double standard where katakuri gets to benefit from "not being tagged by 1800" while bleach does not.


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## Imagine (Nov 16, 2017)

What a fucking shitshow


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## Sherlōck (Nov 16, 2017)

Bleach fans found a new character after Yhack to wank it seems.


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## Xhominid (Nov 16, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> Bleach fans found a new character after Yhack to wank it seems.



We aren't even close to wanking Adult Hitsugaya...
There is zero way that Katakuri can even hurt Adult Hitsugaya without being frozen and defeated instantly.
I absolutely believe that the main people who could give him a real fight is the Admirals and the Yonkou and unfortunately for Katakuri, he is none of those and has no good long range techniques.

Not our fault someone literally cannot understand that and keep thinking a 500 MPH difference will somehow help against someone who was able to freeze a house sized shield being flung by a giant who basically says fuck you to Square Cube Law instantly before it even touched his palm through a simple gesture and froze said giant instantly just by grabbing ahold of him.

And that isn't including the fact he still has the rest of his insanely versatile ice attacks and control the goddamn weather to the point he can literally make the sky fall on you if he wants to.


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## Sherlōck (Nov 17, 2017)

As I said before, I am only agreeing with you because of that set.  Otherwise your post is just wanking.


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## Xhominid (Nov 17, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> As I said before, I am only agreeing with you because of that set.  Otherwise your post is just wanking.



Saying Adult Hitsugaya would find a challenge against the Yonkou or Admirals is wanking? Because I'm not really wanking Hitsugaya when I'm explaining how his abilities and feats worked...

And that wasn't meant to you mostly, it was meant for @12zoro


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## Sherlōck (Nov 17, 2017)

Xhominid said:


> Saying Adult Hitsugaya would find a challenge against the Yonkou or Admirals is wanking?Because I'm not really wanking Hitsugaya when I'm explaining how his abilities and feats worked...



The guy in my set says hi. 

And guess what? Katakuri can hang with guys like that.



Xhominid said:


> And that wasn't meant to you mostly, it was meant for @12zoro



Yes, that's why you quoted me.


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## Xhominid (Nov 17, 2017)

Sherlōck said:


> he guy in my set says hi.
> 
> And guess what? Katakuri can hang with guys like that.



I doubt that...I really do.



Sherlōck said:


> Yes, that's why you quoted me.



Because I didn't feel like quoting that guy or I would be quoting paragraphs.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 17, 2017)

doesnt matter if he can tangle with Admirals, they would be pretty hard pressed to defeat Adult Hitsugaya


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## Sablés (Nov 17, 2017)

No they wouldn't 

An Admiral would beat Hitsugaya with no more than moderate difficulty.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> They're the same point.
> 
> Mach 1800 cannot tag Katakuri
> 
> ...


And you are employing unreasonable logic by giving bleach the advantage of being able to tag someone when a faster guy has shown to not tag him.

EDIT- And to answer your point,no I am not saying katakuri's unquantifiably>1800 speed is better than Hitsugaya's unquantifiably >1300. I am saying these 2 points(and I cannot explain it better than this,if you still cannot understand)-
1) Either you look at calcs and say hitsugaya is 1300(not unquantifiably +) and katakuri is 1800(not unquantifiably +). Then,since G4(also 1800,not +) is not tagging katakuri,neither will hitsugaya. 

OR

2) You try to apply common sense and say that they are faster than calced at in which case,you still cannot prove hitsugaya is equal/faster than katakuri since they are unquantifiably faster than the calced speeds and hence it is inconclusive whether kata would be tagged.



Xhominid said:


> We aren't even close to wanking Adult Hitsugaya...
> There is zero way that Katakuri can even hurt Adult Hitsugaya without being frozen and defeated instantly.
> I absolutely believe that the main people who could give him a real fight is the Admirals and the Yonkou and unfortunately for Katakuri, he is none of those and has no good long range techniques.
> 
> ...


I cannot believe I am arguing with people who read half-ass and then try to act smart. Please tell me when the fuck did I say katakuri is going to hit and win against adult hitsugaya? I said katakuri is not getting tagged by hitsugaya and he is easily outlasting hitsu in terms of stamina on account of both cracker and Ace's showings of incredible stamina feats. As soon as hitsugaya wears off from his adult mode,kata is finishing him up.

I will make it simpler for you so than you don't have to quote my "walls of text"-

Prove that katakuri gets tagged by hitsugaya since you are the ones making this "positive claim".


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## Steven (Nov 17, 2017)

>Cant even beat base Luffy

>Thinks he can beat Adult Hitsu

TopKek.Kata is piss weak

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Vermilion Kn (Nov 17, 2017)

Kata would lose to adult hits and bullshit ability. 

He is being downplayed to hell by some people in this thread though.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> 2) You try to apply common sense and say that they are faster than calced at in which case,you still cannot prove hitsugaya is equal/faster than katakuri since they are unquantifiably faster than the calced speeds and hence it is inconclusive whether kata would be tagged.



Here's the problem.

I don't have to prove that katakuri ISN'T faster, you have to prove he IS.

This is called the burden of proof.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> Here's the problem.
> 
> I don't have to prove that katakuri ISN'T faster, you have to prove he IS.
> 
> This is called the burden of proof.


And here is the second problem. You have to prove that hitsugaya is faster or equal to katakuri in the first case. That burden of proof is on you.

Anyways,for my proof ,here it is-
Hitsugaya is scaled *up *to mach 1300 based on characters who are not necessarily weaker/slower than him.

Katakuri is scaled *down based on characters known to be slower than him* having that speed.

So katakuri is faster based on known knowledge.

Your turn to give proofs of-
a) Hitsugaya tagging katakuri since you make that claim
b)Hitsugaya being as fast/faster than katakuri


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And here is the second problem. You have to prove that hitsugaya is faster or equal to katakuri in the first case. That burden of proof is on you.



No I don't since that's not my argument.

Your argument is that he's faster - I don't have a horse in this race so I don't need to prove anything.



12zoro said:


> Anyways,for my proof ,here it is-
> Hitsugaya is scaled *up *to mach 1300 based on characters who are not necessarily weaker/slower than him.



based on what exactly?



12zoro said:


> Katakuri is scaled *down based on characters known to be slower than him* having that speed.



And?



12zoro said:


> Your turn to give proofs of-
> a) Hitsugaya tagging katakuri since you make that claim
> b)Hitsugaya being as fast/faster than katakuri



Again, just because I'm calling your assertions incorrect - doesn't mean that I'm making the opposite claim to you. It means that I'm calling your assertions incorrect. The fact of the matter is that your logic is dubious at best and dishonest at worst.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 17, 2017)

Sablés said:


> No they wouldn't
> 
> An Admiral would beat Hitsugaya with no more than moderate difficulty.


Do they have some new speed or dc feat im unaware of? Cause if not then Hitsu scales to stronger shit but is slightly slower, an Admiral's best chance is outlasting him but they are still gonna get fucked up by him


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> No I don't since that's not my argument.
> 
> Your argument is that he's faster - I don't have a horse in this race so I don't need to prove anything.
> 
> ...


You are wandering close to troll level territories here.

You are basically asking me why katakuri is faster when we have a calc that puts him as being fast.

Its like me asking you to prove naruto is slower than goku end of dbz



> based on what exactly?


Based on the scaling being for ichigo/yhwach



> And?


And what?


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## Steven (Nov 17, 2017)

The Gap between both in speed is small as fuck.

Mach 1300 vs Mach 1800.Lowbob Pre-Cog like Haki gives you no big advantage.Especially against insta AoE attacks.

Try Harder dude.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> You are wandering close to troll level territories here.
> 
> You are basically asking me why katakuri is faster when we have a calc that puts him as being fast.
> 
> Its like me asking you to prove naruto is slower than goku end of dbz



You can certainly ask me that if you want to and you should expect to receive a logical answer with some evidence for such a claim. Not sure I'd ever make it because I don't remember what the speed calcs are anymore for manga DB but if I made such a claim I'd be expected to back it up.

Katakuri has a calc that makes him (proportionally) about 40% faster. This much is true - what's in question is your wild extrapolation beyond this to argue that Katakuri is unquantifably very far above 1800 while Hitsugaya is not unquantifiably above 1300. The problem here is that this argument is just inherently awful because you can start anywhere and arrive at the same number because the entire thing is - as you yourself admit - unquantifiable.

There's no quantitative difference between "Katakuri is unquantifiably faster than 1800" and "histugaya is unquantifiably faster than 1300 (or if you want to decline this calc, there's some mach 500 VC feat iirc as well)"


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

Alternatively we can do this more logically:

Y>1300
X>1800

when we combine these two facts we get:

X>=<Y>=<1800>1300

This isn't a useful statement.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> You can certainly ask me that if you want to and you should expect to receive a logical answer with some evidence for such a claim. Not sure I'd ever make it because I don't remember what the speed calcs are anymore for manga DB but if I made such a claim I'd be expected to back it up.
> 
> Katakuri has a calc that makes him (proportionally) about 40% faster. This much is true - what's in question is your wild extrapolation beyond this to argue that Katakuri is unquantifably very far above 1800 while Hitsugaya is not unquantifiably above 1300. The problem here is that this argument is just inherently awful because you can start anywhere and arrive at the same number because the entire thing is - as you yourself admit - unquantifiable.
> 
> There's no quantitative difference between "Katakuri is unquantifiably faster than 1800" and "histugaya is unquantifiably faster than 1300 (or if you want to decline this calc, there's some mach 500 VC feat iirc as well)"


The argument is not about how unquantifiably katakuri is above said speed. It's about people saying he would be tagged by a certain character who is slower.

Logically,if you can dodge a bullet,why would you ever be hit by a hand thrown knife?And that too when you know beforehand soeone is going to throw a knife at you? If anybody claims that they will get hit,then they have to come up with a proof for that.

Granted,NF rules say that a character within a certain speed range is not always going to dodge and generally speaking,we would say he would get tagged at one point or the other. But this rule specifically does not apply to katakuri's case because he is shown to be *always* *dodging *the attacks of character(G4) who is faster than *hitsugaya.

EDIT- *In the entire argument of the unquantifiable thing I have said the same thing,we cannot conclude anything.So I cannot prove katakuri is faster ,but neiher can somebody else prove hitsugaya is faster.

That is why I said in the beginning those are 2 points(all possible cases from available information). So if this does not give any answers,we fall back to the one we know,the given known values to base off on.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> The argument is not about how unquantifiably katakuri is above said speed. It's about people saying he would be tagged by a certain character who is slower.
> 
> Logically,if you can dodge a bullet,why would you ever be hit by a hand thrown knife?And that too when you know beforehand soeone is going to throw a knife at you? If anybody claims that they will get hit,then they have to come up with a proof for that.
> 
> Granted,NF rules say that a character within a certain speed range is not always going to dodge and generally speaking,we would say he would get tagged at one point or the other. But this rule specifically does not apply to katakuri's case because he is shown to be *always* *dodging *the attacks of character(G4) who is faster than *hitsugaya.*



You're still trying to sidestep the crux of the issue because what you're saying is equivalent to the argument that blitz tropes apply or that people should be unquantifiably above the fastest speed calc they scale to.

Yes - in universe this is clearly the case but as far as making the OBD a productive place to post goes we obviously can't take this at face value. Read this post:



Nighty the Mighty said:


> Alternatively we can do this more logically:
> 
> Y>1300
> X>1800
> ...



We're debating whether X is faster than Y to the extent that Y can never tag X.

Except by your own logic there isn't enough evidence to say either way whether this is the case. It's tantamount to an argument from belief that Katakuri is just faster than Hitsugaya because you think he's portrayed as faster in the source material.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> You're still trying to sidestep the crux of the issue because what you're saying is equivalent to the argument that blitz tropes apply or that people should be unquantifiably above the fastest speed calc they scale to.
> 
> *Yes - in universe this is clearly the case but as far as making the OBD a productive place to post goes we obviously can't take this at face value*. Read this post:
> 
> ...


The bolded is exactly what I am arguing against.
If, lets say hitsugaya also had a 1800 speed calc too. Then I agree completely,that we cannot make any comparisons since there is no literal/absolute way to determine who may actually be faster.

But when we know that the other is not scaled up to this feat. He is,in absolute terms,slower.There is no way you should try to say that he would still get a hit in.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Yes,the comparison one,true,what you are saying. But again in this case,here we have slightly more information. Hitsugaya has *not demonstrated* a speed of 1300. That was demonstrated by someone who is obviously or most likely faster than him. So even the unquantifiable part is irrelevant to hitsugaya because that is the best that he would do. If yhawch was in his place,then I can agree to your point that yhawch would be "above" the 1300 mark and thus your point stands of  and I wouldn't be arguing that he would never tag katakuri,even though his base speed calc is lower than what katakuri scales to because yhwach would be  at least equal or above that speed feat. But saying hitsugya is above mach 1300 by any amount means you are saying he is faster than Ichigo which is not shown anywhere.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes,the comparison one,true,what you are saying. But again in this case,here we have slightly more information. Hitsugaya has *not demonstrated* a speed of 1300. That was demonstrated by someone who is obviously or most likely faster than him. So even the unquantifiable part is irrelevant to hitsugaya because that is the best that he would do. If yhawch was in his place,then I can agree to your point that yhawch would be "above" the 1300 mark and thus your point stands of and I wouldn't be arguing that he would never tag katakuri,even though his base speed calc is lower than what katakuri scales to because yhwach would be at least equal or above that speed feat. But saying hitsugya is above mach 1300 by any amount means you are saying he is faster than Ichigo which is not shown anywhere.



This is ultimately irrelevant because the exact number Hitsugaya is faster than ceases to matter as soon as you move into the realm of "unquantifiably above" something.

replace 1300 with 500, this remains true:

X>=<Y>=<1800>500

regardless of whether the calc he sacles to is 1300 or 500 or 29 or 1 or peak human the absolute value becomes irrelevant.


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## Regicide (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> You try to apply common sense and say that they are faster than calced at in which case,you still cannot prove hitsugaya is equal/faster than katakuri since they are unquantifiably faster than the calced speeds and hence it is inconclusive whether kata would be tagged.


By virtue of the fact that both speeds are unquantifiably faster than what we can say, I'm fairly certain that a similar line of reasoning could easily say that it can't be proven that Hitsugaya's opponent (whoever it may be) is faster than him.

(As a side note, I'm also fairly certain that if I were to hypothetically argue the merits of Hitsugaya's unquantifiable speed in this context, Bleach has longer chains to work with than One Piece does; not that I'd seriously argue this, of course.)

This is part of the reason why you're not supposed to take the numbers at absolute face value. There's always going to be ambiguity involved that we can't really account for.


12zoro said:


> Hitsugaya is scaled *up *to mach 1300 based on characters who are not necessarily weaker/slower than him.


Uhhhh, no.


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## SomnusUltima (Nov 17, 2017)

op high-tiers  at  very least islands+
 lowballed calcs Fuji and Kuzan((


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## B Rabbit (Nov 17, 2017)

Are we going to assume Hitsuguya starts out in adult form? Cause on panel Katakuri doesn't just let people powerup. So the match would end ridiculously before he even becomes adult.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 17, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> Are we going to assume Hitsuguya starts out in adult form? Cause on panel Katakuri doesn't just let people powerup. So the match would end ridiculously before he even becomes adult.


he cant catch Hitsu even in regular bankai, he can fly and still has huge aoe to delay Kata


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## B Rabbit (Nov 17, 2017)

I don't think the "flight" will be a problem, because A: Katakuri has long range attacks, and B: It's not true flight.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Nov 17, 2017)

B Rabbit said:


> I don't think the "flight" will be a problem, because A: Katakuri has long range attacks, and B: It's not true flight.


Hitsugaya has wings and was one of the only people who could actually fly in the royal realm because of said wings. Hes got actual flight and from far away Katakuri's attacks wont be hitting him


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## Alita (Nov 17, 2017)

Where does hitsu being mach 1300 come from? Thought he was mach 500.


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## g4snake108 (Nov 17, 2017)

Nighty the Mighty said:


> This is ultimately irrelevant because the exact number Hitsugaya is faster than ceases to matter as soon as you move into the realm of "unquantifiably above" something.
> 
> replace 1300 with 500, this remains true:
> 
> ...


No. Then what meaning does 1300 even have? If you are saying anybody is unquantifiably above/below/near it?

If A character has a feat calculated at lets say mach 300. Then A's speed is not going to be "maybe above 300 too,we don't know". We will take it as his speed. Ichigo's speed is 1300 and that is at a time he was trying his fastest to get from place A to B.That is his fastest speed until we find a calc where someone slower than him gets scaled to a higher value.

 Hitsugaya is weaker than ichigo. He is not going to be faster than him,so he may very well be unquantifiable ,but it would be between 500-1300,not "any unquantifiable value". 

Otherwise,who is to stop me tomorrow from saying,nah naruto is unquantifiably above quadruple digits mach,he can tag lightspeed characters,since its "unquantifiable"?



Regicide said:


> By virtue of the fact that both speeds are unquantifiably faster than what we can say, I'm fairly certain that a similar line of reasoning could easily say that it can't be proven that Hitsugaya's opponent (whoever it may be) is faster than him.
> 
> (As a side note, I'm also fairly certain that if I were to hypothetically argue the merits of Hitsugaya's unquantifiable speed in this context, Bleach has longer chains to work with than One Piece does; not that I'd seriously argue this, of course.)
> 
> This is part of the reason why you're not supposed to take the numbers at absolute face value. There's always going to be ambiguity involved that we can't really account for.


And that reasoning is what I am challenging. You calculate a speed to just say naah,he is unquantifiable,but maybe somewhere around this limit? Then why calculate in the first place? Just take manga statements as facts and say characters are unquantifiable near those manga statements.


> Uhhhh, no.


Sorry,did not get you?


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## Regicide (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And that reasoning is what I am challenging. You calculate a speed to just say naah,he is unquantifiable,but maybe somewhere around this limit? Then why calculate in the first place?


Let me break this down.

Calcs, as we call them, are derived from the limited information that we're either given or are able to infer from fictional works. Keyword being limited. There is almost always going to be information, details, or context that aren't available to us, and that we're unable to account for. We are basically never going to have access to the whole picture.

This means that there's always going to be some degree of imprecision. Hence, we shouldn't, and we don't take calcs as being exact because they're not perfectly accurate.

How do we make any comparisons if the numbers aren't accurate? Simple, margin of error. It might not be conclusive to say (in fact, it's probably not) that Character A is not only faster but also twice as fast as Character B, but the ambiguity becomes less so as the gap widens.

A difference of two times isn't really that significant for our purposes. But three? Four times? Even five? You start approaching the point where you can say "Yeah, this is probably closer to being correct than saying otherwise". Assumption's safer to make than before.

The problem here is that you're trying to treat.. what, something like a 40% to 50% difference, as being an absolutely insurmountable wall.


12zoro said:


> Sorry,did not get you?


Hitsugaya is not "scaled up" from anyone.

The premise here presumably relates to Mimihagi, who links to Pernida, who in turn links to Zaraki, who links to Gerard, and then finally Hitsugaya himself.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 17, 2017)

12zoro said:


> No. Then what meaning does 1300 even have? If you are saying anybody is unquantifiably above/below/near it?
> 
> If A character has a feat calculated at lets say mach 300. Then A's speed is not going to be "maybe above 300 too,we don't know". We will take it as his speed. Ichigo's speed is 1300 and that is at a time he was trying his fastest to get from place A to B.That is his fastest speed until we find a calc where someone slower than him gets scaled to a higher value.
> 
> ...



You're _literally_ arguing against your own logic now because it's being used by an opposing side 

Like let me be 100% clear, the logic you are using to dismiss this argument is the logic I'm using to dismiss your argument - this is objectively a double standard you're displaying.


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