# Current Speed Tier List



## Wolfstein (Nov 30, 2013)

Please help me rank current Naruto characters in terms of speed. Raw speed, shushin speed, whatever.  All of the characters have their most recent speed feats.

Tobirama
BM Minato
BSM Naruto 
Might Guy 
Rocklee
Ei
Third Raikage 
Obito (Juubito)
Kabuto (Sage Mode)
Jiraiya (Sage Mode)

Feel free add or subtract any characters you feel like, just make sure the list is still in the realm of top ten.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 30, 2013)

*Top Ten Speed-Wise*
Juubito
BM Minato ~ BSM Naruto
KCM Naruto
V2 Ei ~ 7th Gate Gai
Tobirama
Sage Mode Kabuto ~ Sandaime Raikage
Itachi ~ Sasuke  ~ SM Jiraiya


----------



## Veracity (Nov 30, 2013)

Juubito
BSM Naruto ~ BM Minato
KCM Naruto
V2 Ay
Gated Gai
Tobirama
SM Kabuto
SM Jirayia
lee( why the hell is he here lol)


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 30, 2013)

Top Tier

1. Juubito
2. KCM/Bijuu Minato
3. Bijuu Naruto

Tier 2

4. Minato
5. KCM Naruto
6. 4th Raikage
7. Gated Gai

Tier 3

8. Tobirama
9. 3rd Raikage/V2 Killer B
10. V1 Killer B/Sage Kabuto

Tier 4

11. Itachi/Minato (no Hiraishin)/Gai (base)/KCM Naruto (no Shunshin)/Sage Naruto/Sage Jiraiya/Obito/Madara/Hashirama/Killer B (base)/Hanzou/Mifune
12. Pain/Kakashi/Sasuke/Orochimaru/Jiraiya (base)

Tier 5

13. Deidara/Sasori/Danzou/Muu/2nd Mizukage/Oonoki/Naruto (base)
14. Kisame/Kakuzu
15. Tsunade/Mei/Gaara
16. Hiruzen

Tier 6

Fodder


----------



## Wolfstein (Nov 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Juubito
> BSM Naruto ~ BM Minato
> KCM Naruto
> V2 Ay
> ...



Dammit don't make fun of Lee 

Back in part one Lee was like the fastest mofo in the Narutoverse, now he's a lost cause. Replace regular Lee with Kyuubi Cloak Lee lol.


----------



## Mercurial (Nov 30, 2013)

Juubito

BM Minato / BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
KCM Naruto (Shunshin)
Minato
Gai (Gated)
Ei (2? lv RnY)

Madara / Hashirama
Kakashi / Tobirama 
Gai / Obito pre Juubi / KCM Naruto (no Shunshin) / V2 Killer Bee / V2 jinchuriki
Itachi / Rock Lee (Gated)
3rd Raikage / Ei (1? lv RnY) / Darui
Deva Pain
Sasuke
SM Jiraiya
Killer Bee
Mifune
Rock Lee
Naruto
Ei


----------



## Rosencrantz (Nov 30, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tier 4
> 
> 11. Itachi/Minato (no Hiraishin)/Gai (base)/KCM Naruto (no Shunshin)/Sage Naruto/Sage Jiraiya/Obito/Madara/Hashirama/Killer B (base)/Hanzou/Mifune
> 
> 15. Tsunade/Mei/Gaara


I like how you make this your longest tier and specifically put Itachi first. And including names like Hashirama, Obito, Madara, KCM Naruto afterwards to show just how great Itachi is! For the record going to have to put Hanzou one below, Minato/KCM Naruto one above, Hashirama/Madara one above,and that is probably okay.

Seriously?! Tsunade and Mei as fast as a stationary fighter in Gaara? Nah.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 30, 2013)

Does not include S/T because that's kind of hard to rank

Top tier speedsters:
1) Juubito
2) BM Minato/BSM Naruto 
3) BM Naruto
4) KCM Naruto 
5) Ei

Super speed:
1) 7 gate Gai
2) Sandaime Raikage/ V1 Ei
3) V2 Bee
4) 6th gated Gai
5) V1 Bee
6) SM Kabuto

"Fast!":
1) Hashirama/Madara
2) SM Naruto/SM Jiraiya
4) Bee/ Itachi/ Sasuke/ Mifune
5) base Gai
6) Kakashi
7) Obito



Nikushimi said:


> Tier 3
> 
> 8. Tobirama
> 9. 3rd Raikage/V2 Killer B
> ...


There's really no way you can put the third raikage above KCM Naruto w/o shunshin when the third was directly compared to Ei's speed,* the same speed that Naruto was explicitly stated to be matching.*


----------



## Shizune (Nov 30, 2013)

1. Minato / Naruto / Obito
2. Tobirama 
3. Ei / Third Raikage / Kabuto
4. Gai / Jiraiya
5. Lee


----------



## Veracity (Nov 30, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Does not include S/T because that's kind of hard to rank
> 
> Top tier speedsters:
> 1) Juubito
> ...



No Tobirama with insane shunshin speed?


----------



## Tsunami (Nov 30, 2013)

Rock Lee 5th gate w/ kyybi chakra cloak > all


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 30, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> No Tobirama with insane shunshin speed?



hm... IIRC he didn't have a shunshin feat unless your talking about hirashingiri, but i'm pretty sure that's just a variant of Hirashin, a S/T jutsu.


----------



## Kyu (Nov 30, 2013)

I suppose I'll give it a shot.


*1.)* _Juubito_
-
*2.)* _BM Minato/BSM Naruto_
-
-
*3.)* _Full powered A/ 7th Gated Gai_
*4.)* _Minato (alive)_
*5.)* _Sandaime Raikage_
*6.)* _Tobirama/Hashirama/Madara/v2 Killer Bee/SM Naruto_
*7.)* _Itachi/Sasuke/Kakashi/Naruto(base)_
*8.)* _Tsunade_/_Jiraiya (base)_​


----------



## Bonly (Dec 1, 2013)

Minato/Tobi
Obito
Naruto
A
Gai
Sandaime Raikage
Kabuto/Jiraiya
Lee


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 1, 2013)

Juubito
BSM Naruto
BM Minato (could be equal to the above)
Gated Gai
A
SM Kabuto/Third Raikage
Tobirama/SM Jiraiya
Lee


----------



## Eliyua23 (Dec 1, 2013)

Juubito

Minato~BSM Naruto

BM Naruto

Tobirama

Raikage 

Gai

3rd Raikage

SM Kabuto

SM Jiriyia


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 1, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> I like how you make this your longest tier and specifically put Itachi first. And including names like Hashirama, Obito, Madara, KCM Naruto afterwards to show just how great Itachi is! For the record going to have to put Hanzou one below, Minato/KCM Naruto one above, Hashirama/Madara one above,and that is probably okay.



The order is completely irrelevant, which is why I gave them all the same number/didn't rank them separately. Itachi was just the first one who came time mind because he's always on my mind. 



> Seriously?! Tsunade and Mei as fast as a stationary fighter in Gaara? Nah.



Stationary or not, Gaara IS still capable of movement, and I'm also taking into account reaction time as well.



ueharakk said:


> There's really no way you can put the third raikage above KCM Naruto w/o shunshin when the third was directly compared to Ei's speed,* the same speed that Naruto was explicitly stated to be matching.*



Naruto matched and ultimately exceeded the 4th Raikage's speed with Shunshin, and it was a 1/13th clone of Naruto that the 3rd Raikage fought.

And the 3rd is not as fast as the 4th.

If you look more closely, I have KCM Naruto ranked above them both; take out all the other characters and it looks like this:

KCM Naruto>4th Raikage>3rd Raikage>KCM Naruto (no Shunshin)


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Naruto matched and ultimately exceeded the 4th Raikage's speed with Shunshin, and it was a 1/13th clone of Naruto that the 3rd Raikage fought.
> 
> And the 3rd is not as fast as the 4th.
> 
> ...



I'm talking about KCM Naruto's non-shunshin speed.  That's what he was using to match "V1" ei's speed before he used his flash shunshin and what Tsunade deemed* "matching the raikage's speed"*.  And sandaime in turn *was compared to that V1 Ei's speed.*

So i don't see how KCM Naruto's non-shunshin speed isn't equal to sandaime raikage's.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 1, 2013)

1. Healthy Itachi
2. Jūbito
3. Edo Itachi
4. BM Minato


----------



## Chad (Dec 1, 2013)

Speed = velocity*time. FTG has neither velocity, nor time because it's teleporting instantly. Therefore, it shouldn't be considered speed what so ever.

Tier 1:
-Rikudou
-Juubi Prime

Tier 2:
-Juubito
-Juubi second form

Tier 3:
-Minato (short burst shunshin)
-Naruto (short burst shunshin)

Tier 4:
-Hashirama (out-speed Kyuubi Bijuudama, which moves as fast as Naruto's non-shunsin speed)
-Madara (close to Hashirama)
-Tobirama (kept pace with Hashirama)
-Edo Hiruzen (kept pace with Hashirama)
-A
-Gai
-Shisui?

Tier 5:
-Sage Mode users
-Nagato/Pain

Tier 6:
-the rest


----------



## Miyamoto Musashi (Dec 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> 1. Healthy Itachi
> 2. Jūbito
> 3. Edo Itachi
> 4. BM Minato



Why is Jūbito above Edo Itachi?


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I'm talking about KCM Naruto's non-shunshin speed.  That's what he was using to match "V1" ei's speed before he used his flash shunshin and what Tsunade deemed* "matching the raikage's speed"*.  And sandaime in turn *was compared to that V1 Ei's speed.*
> 
> So i don't see how KCM Naruto's non-shunshin speed isn't equal to sandaime raikage's.



The Raikage is not a Jinchuuriki and does not have a V1 form, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.

KCM Naruto matched A's Shunshin with Shunshin. Matching the Raikage's non-Shunshin speed without Shunshin is not that hard to do; Sasuke and base Killer B both did it.

A's Shunshin is what makes him faster than his father; without it, he's slower.



Strategoob said:


> 1. Healthy Itachi
> 2. Jūbito
> 3. Edo Itachi
> 4. BM Minato


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 1, 2013)

See that motherfuckin' after-image, bro?

That's 20%. That's Edo Itachi resurrected with 70% of his sick body.

Healthy Itachi can't be stopped.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The Raikage is not a Jinchuuriki and does not have a V1 form, so I'm not sure what you're talking about.


Don't be a child, we've been over this before, you know what I mean by V1 in regards to Ei, and just because the manga didn't say it's V1 doesn't mean that the fans can't use that term to simply describe Ei's unmaxed RnY.  

If you disagree with that so much then I expect you to police every single argument and poster you come across that says 'Chou shinra tensei' and pretend you don't know what they are talking about.



Nikushimi said:


> KCM Naruto matched A's Shunshin with Shunshin. Matching the Raikage's non-Shunshin speed without Shunshin is not that hard to do; Sasuke and base Killer B both did it.
> 
> A's Shunshin is what makes him faster than his father; without it, he's slower.


Naruto wasn't using shunshin against Ei as he was clearly shown * crouching and then jumping* on *more than one occasion*.  

How did you get sasuke matching Ei's non shunshin speed?  Also if Sasuke matched Ei's non-shunshin speed, then SM Naruto matched Sandaime raikage's shunshin speed, and thus SM Naruto should be as fast as Sandaime raikage.

Next, Ei clearly didn't use shunshin against Minato, he ran at him and Ei considered that his fastest punch.  He did the same thing against juugo in V1 and he still was called fast by suigetsu.  So no, Ei doesn't need shunshin to move at his top speed, he can do so by simply accelerating himself by running.

Finally, where did you get Sandaime is faster than his father in raw movement speed?


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

Actually this is interesting.

If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.



Please say your trolling. PLEASE! If your not I don't think I can take it anymore


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Please say your trolling. PLEASE! If your not I don't think I can take it anymore


Well Itachi's reflexes are better then Sasuke's and the latter did react to Juubito so...

Okay, maybe the difference between prime and Edo is not as big as I suggested.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Well Itachi's reflexes are better then Sasuke's and the latter did react to Juubito so...
> 
> Okay, maybe the difference between prime and Edo is not as big as I suggested.



You know how Kishi is . Logic is not acceptable.

-  It's like Pain Arc to Current Kakashi
-  Pain Arc SM Naruto to Current SM Naruto.
-  Base Gai and his ridiculous feats.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> You know how Kishi is . Logic is not acceptable.
> 
> -  It's like Pain Arc to Current Kakashi
> -  Pain Arc SM Naruto to Current SM Naruto.
> -  Base Gai and his ridiculous feats.


Eh, actually time passed between the Pain Arc and the War Arc so Kakashi would have had some time to train, add on the fact he's been fighting in the war and getting stronger. SM Naruto got the Kyuubi's support and has used SM more so that's normal too. Base Gai's feats aren't too outlandish. Sasuke didn't do anything to boost his power inbetween Kabuto fight and the War.

Well yes sometimes it seems ridiculous but we can't just pick and choose what to accept as feats, we use the manga. There's nothing suggesting Sasuke got stronger.

Kabuto stated that Itachi reacted quicker iirc which would imply his reflexes are better and then Sasuke goes on to track the fastest entity in the entire Narutoverse. Technically it makes no sense for Itachi to have reflexes on that level but the evidence suggests it.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Don't be a child, we've been over this before, you know what I mean by V1 in regards to Ei,



No, I have no idea. 

V1 is the term for the transparent Jinchuuriki chakra armor and the Raikage is not a Jinchuuriki.



> and just because the manga didn't say it's V1 doesn't mean that the fans can't use that term to simply describe Ei's unmaxed RnY.



I can call Susano'o "Rasengan" if I want to, but that doesn't make it true. 



> If you disagree with that so much then I expect you to police every single argument and poster you come across that says 'Chou shinra tensei' and pretend you don't know what they are talking about.



The technique was Shinra Tensei; "chou" is just a generic Japanese affix meaning "super."



> Naruto wasn't using shunshin against Ei as he was clearly shown * crouching and then jumping* on *more than one occasion*.



How does that prove it was not Shunshin? 



> How did you get sasuke matching Ei's non shunshin speed?  Also if Sasuke matched Ei's non-shunshin speed, then SM Naruto matched Sandaime raikage's shunshin speed, and thus SM Naruto should be as fast as Sandaime raikage.



Sasuke matched the 4th Raikage's base speed by dodging his elbow and striking him.

Sage Naruto never matched the 3rd's Shunshin speed; he pulled a maneuver similar to Sasuke's against the Raikage's base speed during his Nukite thrust.



> Next, Ei clearly didn't use shunshin against Minato, he ran at him and Ei considered that his fastest punch.  He did the same thing against juugo in V1 and he still was called fast by suigetsu.



Those were both apparent usages of Shunshin, as the Raikage powered up his Raiton armor in both instances (and intuition tells us Shunshin is the Raikage's max speed).



> So no, Ei doesn't need shunshin to move at his top speed, he can do so by simply accelerating himself by running.



Shunshin is the Raikage's max speed. Shunshin uses chakra to accelerate the body.

That's why he used it to counter Amaterasu, as C noted.



> Finally, where did you get Sandaime is faster than his father in raw movement speed?



We don't know anything about the 3rd's father.

But the 3rd with Shunshin should obviously be faster than the 4th without Shunshin.



Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 1, 2013)

edited:

*GODLY SPEED*

Juubito

*TOP TIER SPEED*

BM Minato / BSM Naruto
BM Naruto
KCM Naruto (Shunshin)
Minato
Gai (Gated)
Ei (2? lv RnY)

*SPEEDSTERS*

Madara / Hashirama
Kakashi / Tobirama 
Gai / Obito pre Juubi / KCM Naruto (no Shunshin) / V2 Killer Bee / V2 jinchuriki
Itachi / Rock Lee (Gated)
3rd Raikage / Ei (1? lv RnY) / Darui
Deva Pain
Sasuke
SM Jiraiya
Killer Bee
Mifune
Rock Lee
Naruto
Ei

other


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 1, 2013)

Ranking them in regards to overall speed(reactions, movement/swiftness etc), no STJ.

1 - Juubito
2 - BSM Naruto / BM Minato
3 - KCM/BM Naruto
4 - A
5 - Gai 7+ gates
6 - 3rd Raikage
7 - Kabuto
8 - Jiraiya / Tobirama



Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.



Dat canon


----------



## Mercurial (Dec 1, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ranking them in regards to overall speed(reactions, movement/swiftness etc), no STJ.
> 
> 1 - Juubito
> 2 - BSM Naruto / BM Minato
> ...



Itachi, Kakashi, pre Juubi Obito are all characters fastest and with better reactions than SM Jiraiya, and Tobirama, and the 3rd Raikage also. An Itachi fan who understimates the King


----------



## Jad (Dec 1, 2013)

I'd say 7th Gated Gai *underwater*, still in the Hirudora stance just as the tiger explodes, then escaping the instantaneous blast with no injuries is pretty underrated. He was *underwater* to start off with people!~ That's gotta be some speed to get up and go.​


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 1, 2013)

Raikiri19 said:


> Itachi, Kakashi, pre Juubi Obito are all characters fastest and with better reactions than SM Jiraiya, and Tobirama, and the 3rd Raikage also. An Itachi fan who understimates the King


They weren't in the op so I didn't include them.


----------



## Aegon Targaryen (Dec 1, 2013)

1. Juubi Obito (2nd Form)
2. Naruto Uzumaki (BSM)
3. Minato Namikaze
~Naruto Uzumaki (KCM/BM)
4. Tobirama Senju
5. Ei Yotsuki (fully amped)
~ Maito Gai (Hachimon)
6. Kabuto Yakushi (SM)
~ Naruto Uzumaki (SM)
8. Jiraiya (SM)
~ Sandaime Raikage
9. Rock Lee (Hachimon)
10. Naruto Uzumaki (base)
~Kakashi Hatake
~Itachi Uchiha
~Sasuke Uchiha (Pre-Juubi Fight)*

*If you think that Itachi is faster than Sasuke based on the former reacting to Kabuto's Muki Tensei quicker, you'll have to say that Kabuto is also a good deal faster than someone that can react to Juubi Jin Obito (and thus Juubi Jin Obito's equal in speed), as the dude blitzed Itachi a number of times during their fight. It's entirely possible that Sasuke didn't (or simply couldn't) actually use the EMS to his full extent against the guy, which is why his brother was still able to react faster than he himself could. He was just getting adjusted to his eyes after all.

Base Killer Bee did just fine against Edo Itachi's speed, even though Itachi wasn't holding back or anything. Itachi isn't as fast as his fans want him to be.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Dec 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Stationary or not, Gaara IS still capable of movement, and I'm also taking into account reaction time as well.
> 
> And the 3rd is not as fast as the 4th.
> 
> ...


Ah I see.

He means Sandaime's V1 Raiton armor v. Yondaime's V1 Raiton armor are roughly equal.

No, no, no. KCM Naruto without shunshin was explicitly stated to be able to match V1 Raikage's speed. Yondaime Raikage without shunshin is on par with Sandaime Raikage's speed. 

And don't bring no bullshit of matching someone's speed equates to dodging them. People react to, block, and dodge faster people all of the time in this manga and there are PLENTY of examples. KCM Naruto was EXPLICITLY stated to be able match V1 A's speed.


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Dec 1, 2013)

Based primarily on movement speed and/or shunshins:

*Top Tier*
Juubi Obito
KCM Naruto / KCM Minato
Yondaime Raikage
Tobirama (shunshins)
7 Gated Gai / Sandaime Raikage
Killer Bee (V2)
Sage Kabuto

*High speedsters*
Itachi / Sasuke
Kakashi 
SM Naruto 
SM Jiraiya
Madara
Mifune
Base Gai

*Speedsters*
Hashirama (?)
Asuma 
Deidara / Kakuzu
Hanzou
Onoki (airborne)

*Quick*
Kisame
Tsunade
Hidan / Darui 
Rock Lee
Orochimaru 
Kimimaro / Juugo
Naruto (base)
Chiyo
Sasori (human)

*Above average*
Suigetsu
Mei 
Hiruzen / Danzou
Shizune
Base Kabuto 
Sakura
Base Jiraiya / Gaara 
etc.​​


----------



## Brooks (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.



The King can't be touched


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Actually this is interesting.
> 
> If EMS Sasuke can track the fastest entity in the manga yet Itachi reacted quicker to Muki Tensei then this means Itachi has the greatest reflexes in the entire manga. Sasuke didn't get any new dojutsu between the Kabuto fight and the Juubito fight. Thus he should have superior reflexes to Tobirama/Hashirama (whom Juubito blitzed). Combine this with the fact Edo Itachi is vastly slower than a prime Itachi and it's entirely possible Itachi is the fastest character in the entire manga.



Itachi's true power is like archeology. The more we know about stuff in general, the more power we find out Itachi had. 


Dat alpha channel.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Dec 1, 2013)

This is not a hard list to arrange.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

Uzamaki Nagato said:


> *If you think that Itachi is faster than Sasuke based on the former reacting to Kabuto's Muki Tensei quicker, you'll have to say that Kabuto is also a good deal faster than someone that can react to Juubi Jin Obito (and thus Juubi Jin Obito's equal in speed), as the dude blitzed Itachi a number of times during their fight. *It's entirely possible that Sasuke didn't (or simply couldn't) actually use the EMS to his full extent against the guy, which is why his brother was still able to react faster than he himself could. He was just getting adjusted to his eyes after all.*
> 
> Base Killer Bee did just fine against Edo Itachi's speed, even though Itachi wasn't holding back or anything. Itachi isn't as fast as his fans want him to be.


No evidence whatsoever; in fact he seemed pretty confident manipulating Enton/using Susanoo variants with just as much ease as his brother who had completely mastered his MS.

Kabuto never blitzed Itachi, Muki Tensei was not a blitz as Itachi reacted but chose to protect his brother. The scalpel 'blitz' was also not legitimate as Itachi was prepping Izanami and didn't know Kabuto was in the head. By that logic base Naruto blitzed base Sasuke back in the Kage Arc.

Also SM Kabuto is faster than Itachi, he can anticipate and dodge Susanoo arrows making him one of the fastest characters in the manga bar the top tier speedsters. I was talking reflexes/reactions with that post; Edo Itachi does indeed have superior reflexes to EMS Sasuke who later tracked Obito thus suggesting he has one of the greatest reflexes in the entire manga.


----------



## Ƶero (Dec 1, 2013)

BM Minato
Minato
The rest


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> How does that prove it was not Shunshin?


because people don't physically leap to use shunshin......



Nikushimi said:


> Those were both apparent usages of Shunshin, as the Raikage powered up his Raiton armor in both instances (and intuition tells us Shunshin is the Raikage's max speed).
> 
> Shunshin is the Raikage's max speed. Shunshin uses chakra to accelerate the body.
> 
> That's why he used it to counter Amaterasu, as C noted.


So shunshin is not simply movement from point A to point B, it's literally whenever a character uses chakra to increase their speed?  Well then I guess Sakura used shunshin when she made herself move faster by putting chakra to her feet?  Well if that's the case, then put base naruto on the same level as KCM Naruto since he keeps up with Base Sasuke's speed.



Nikushimi said:


> Sasuke matched the 4th Raikage's base speed by dodging his elbow and striking him.
> 
> Sage Naruto never matched the 3rd's Shunshin speed; he pulled a maneuver similar to Sasuke's against the Raikage's base speed during his Nukite thrust.


Wait now hold on.  By your above assertions that despite Ei running at minato, he was using shunshin, then why do you conclude that Sandaime raikage and Ei weren't using shunshin when they attacked naruto and Sasuke?


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Well Itachi's reflexes are better then Sasuke's and the latter did react to Juubito so...
> 
> Okay, maybe the difference between prime and Edo is not as big as I suggested.



Even if you were serious

1) how does that feat show sasuke has slower reactions than itachi?  It could be that sasuke had better reactions and knew that the stalagmites wouldn't hit him and thus had no reason to defend himself while itachi with the slower reactions could only play the guessing game.

2) apparently, *Sasuke was only using his 3 tomoe* at the time while ITachi was using the MS while Sasuke used his EMS to track Juubito.

so..........


----------



## Veracity (Dec 1, 2013)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Based primarily on movement speed and/or shunshins:
> 
> *Top Tier*
> Juubi Obito
> ...



Why so you have Asuma, Mifune, and Hanzo so high?

IIRC, Asuma was blitzed by Kakuzu and Shikamatu dodged a point blank attack from Kakuzu so they both aren't really fast.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Even if you were serious
> 
> 1) how does that feat show sasuke has slower reactions than itachi?  It could be that sasuke had better reactions and knew that the stalagmites wouldn't hit him and thus had no reason to defend himself while itachi with the slower reactions could only play the guessing game.
> 
> ...


Um, why take the risk? At the very least he could've protected Itachi. Kishimoto only showed us Itachi seeing and reacting to Muki Tensei. Sasuke also seemed surprised when Itachi was hit. It does actually show Itachi's better reactions. It's completely baseless to suggest Sasuke reacted first when everything (including Kabuto's words) points to Itachi reacting first.

EMS/MS don't offer any more pre-cognition then 3 tomoe, 
- Firstly we have no proof it does nor is it ever suggested.
- Sasuke engaged V1 Ei with regular Sharingan, MS was not used nor did it allow him to track V2 Ei. Similarly Itachi engaged KCM Naruto with 3 tomoe not MS, if he was truly go all-out as certain Naruto fans love to assert to downplay Itachi then he would've used MS to track Nardo better but he didn't.
- There has never been an instance where EMS/MS could track someone and 3 tomoe couldn't.

The only thing ever suggested is that EMS can see through wood clones, nothing on pre-cognition and MS improves standard Sharingan genjutsu.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Um, why take the risk? At the very least he could've protected Itachi. Kishimoto only showed us Itachi seeing and reacting to Muki Tensei. Sasuke also seemed surprised when Itachi was hit. It does actually show Itachi's better reactions. It's completely baseless to suggest Sasuke reacted first when everything (including Kabuto's words) points to Itachi reacting first.


Sasuke probably thought itachi could protect himself seeing as he has no drawbacks from using susanoo and has unlimited chakra to use.



Kyokan said:


> EMS/MS don't offer any more pre-cognition then 3 tomoe,
> - Firstly we have no proof it does nor is it ever suggested.
> - Sasuke engaged V1 Ei with regular Sharingan, MS was not used nor did it allow him to track V2 Ei. Similarly Itachi engaged KCM Naruto with 3 tomoe not MS, if he was truly go all-out as certain Naruto fans love to assert to downplay Itachi then he would've used MS to track Nardo better but he didn't.
> - There has never been an instance where EMS/MS could track someone and 3 tomoe couldn't.


The proof is that EMS Sasuke could track Juubito while MS Sasuke couldn't track Ei...


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Sasuke probably thought itachi could protect himself seeing as he has no drawbacks from using susanoo and has unlimited chakra to use.


No proof, Sasuke wouldn't risk it anyway. If he can react faster why couldn't he see the ribcage forming around him and do the same for Itachi?



> The proof is that EMS Sasuke could track Juubito while MS Sasuke couldn't track Ei...


Or that EMS Sasuke simply got stronger and his actual reflexes got better? Plus it took time for him to adapt to Juubito's speed. Maybe he could've adapted to Ei's speed. 2 tomoe Sasuke couldn't track base Lee but I have no doubt VOTE Sasuke could do it with 2 tomoe. Same dojutsu, different mastery/stats. Nothing was ever said about MS/EMS upgrading pre-cognition, it should be the same as 3 tomoe.


----------



## Veracity (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> No proof, Sasuke wouldn't risk it anyway. If he can react faster why couldn't he see the ribcage forming around him and do the same for Itachi?
> 
> 
> Or that EMS Sasuke simply got stronger and his actual reflexes got better? Plus it took time for him to adapt to Juubito's speed. Maybe he could've adapted to Ei's speed. 2 tomoe Sasuke couldn't track base Lee but I have no doubt VOTE Sasuke could do it with 2 tomoe. Same dojutsu, different mastery/stats. Nothing was ever said about MS/EMS upgrading pre-cognition, it should be the same as 3 tomoe.



You contradicted yourself. If he got stronger and his reflexes got better, then you can't use Itachi as an example anymore.


----------



## Sadgoob (Dec 1, 2013)

Mangekyō with A → Eternal Mangekyō with Kabuto and Jūbito.

Itachi's just naturally more reflexive, even with a lesser dōjutsu.

Dat 5/5 speed when barely alive.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> No proof, Sasuke wouldn't risk it anyway. If he can react faster why couldn't he see the ribcage forming around him and do the same for Itachi?


No proof that he didn't, burden of proof works both ways.  Already gave the answer to your question.



Kyokan said:


> Or that EMS Sasuke simply got stronger and his actual reflexes got better? Plus it took time for him to adapt to Juubito's speed. Maybe he could've adapted to Ei's speed. 2 tomoe Sasuke couldn't track base Lee but I have no doubt VOTE Sasuke could do it with 2 tomoe. Same dojutsu, different mastery/stats. Nothing was ever said about MS/EMS upgrading pre-cognition, it should be the same as 3 tomoe.


2 tomoe sasuke could very well track base lee, it's his body that simply couldn't keep up.  At VoTe sasuke went through at least 2 massive physical powerups: speed training that gave him lee's level of speed and synchronization with the cursed seal.  So it really doesn't apply to EMS Sasuke as he hasn't had any time to massively increase his perceptive or physical abilities since his fight with Ei unless you refer to him gaining the EMS.

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated that the EMS upgrades pre-cognition when Sasuke is given such a massive increase in that area, the manga states that it does increase perception to the point that it allows one to perceive things that shouldn't be possible, and that it's suppose to alter the user's vision so radically that zetsu states sasuke will be seeing the world in a whole different light.

So we are left with two possibilities: 

1) that base sasuke magically got so much faster and reflexive that he now can track a being who's at least a tier faster than the guy who he couldn't track 

or

2) EMS gives sasuke better reflexes


----------



## Ersa (Dec 1, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> No proof that he didn't, burden of proof works both ways.  Already gave the answer to your question.


The manga points more to Itachi reacting first then Sasuke reacting first though. Surely you agree on this?



> 2 tomoe sasuke could very well track base lee, it's his body that simply couldn't keep up.  At VoTe sasuke went through at least 2 massive physical powerups: speed training that gave him lee's level of speed and synchronization with the cursed seal.  So it really doesn't apply to EMS Sasuke as he hasn't had any time to massively increase his perceptive or physical abilities since his fight with Ei unless you refer to him gaining the EMS.


Several fights between Ei and Kabuto plus greater mastery of Sharingan could have helped. Kakashi got so much stronger between Tobi fight and the Pain Arc just by fighting fodder (maybe not Sasuke).



> It doesn't have to be explicitly stated that the EMS upgrades pre-cognition when Sasuke is given such a massive increase in that area, the manga states that it does increase perception to the point that it allows one to perceive things that shouldn't be possible, and that it's suppose to alter the user's vision so radically that zetsu states sasuke will be seeing the world in a whole different light.


Until we have proof, it's pure conjecture.

Detecting wood clones is not related to pre-cognition, neither is genjutsu. Both have proof that EMS is better than Sharingan, there is zero proof EMS offers better pre-cognition, no statements. It's more reasonable to attribute it to Sauce's growth in stats.



> So we are left with two possibilities:
> 
> 1) that base sasuke magically got so much faster and reflexive that he now can track a being who's at least a tier faster than the guy who he couldn't track
> 
> ...


It's a Shonen manga, I don't think it's wrong to suggest Sauce improved that much. He is Naruto's rivals; Sharingan pre-cognition is huge as well; you literally have to be roof-tier in reflexes to match the Sharingan's advantage. What happens when you couple roof tier reflexes with roof tier Kekkai Genkai? 

Top tier reflexes Sauce + mastered Sharingan tracking =< Nardo + SM sensing + top tier reflexes.


----------



## Trojan (Dec 1, 2013)

1- Minato (with FTG)
2- obito as a host
3- Minato with BM and no FTG ( think he logically be faster than Naruto)
4- BSM Naruto
5- A (it's stated that he's the fastest after Minato, but then Naruto and obito came to the scene)

 don't know where to put Tobirama, although he has FTG, but A was stated to be faster than him.
Or maybe kishi run out of ideas so he decided to give FTG to Tobirama later on regardless. 

7- Base Minato's shunshin, his feats of saving Naruto, Kushina, catching to Kurama from the end of the
village, running around the Juubi to put his marks. 

8- Guy while using his gates. 
9- third raikage
10- sasuke


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 1, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> The manga points more to Itachi reacting first then Sasuke reacting first though. Surely you agree on this?


I don't think so, had sasuke lacked a reaction he'd have shown a "!" or "!?" above his head.  If it was just the guessing game, I don't see why Sasuke wouldn't be able to put up his susanoo or at the very least activate his EMS before the spikes had time to grow attack him and itachi had time to jump in the air and put susanoo around sasuke.



Kyokan said:


> *
> Several fights between Ei and Kabuto plus greater mastery of Sharingan could have helped. *Kakashi got so much stronger between Tobi fight and the Pain Arc just by fighting fodder (maybe not Sasuke).


If the bolded is true, then you can't compare sasuke to edo itachi as he had kabuto's fight and more time to master his sharingan (which he just got) before his feats against juubito.
How did kakashi get much stronger? Amount of times he could use kamui, correct?  Does that apply to his physical and mental reactions?



Kyokan said:


> Until we have proof, it's pure conjecture.


That's simply playing the super skeptic and catering to the fallacious reasoning of saying 'you need X amount of proof before I think your argument is valid' despite the fact that that exact same logic would make the alternative argument which is that it DOESN'T increase reflexes 'pure conjecture'.  So no, both arguments have the same burden of proof to fullfill, if you raise the bar extremely high for my argument you have to do it for yours as well and by that standard both arguments are pure conjecture.



Kyokan said:


> Detecting wood clones is not related to pre-cognition, neither is genjutsu. Both have proof that EMS is better than Sharingan, there is zero proof EMS offers better pre-cognition, no statements. It's more reasonable to attribute it to Sauce's growth in stats.


Yes it is, if the eyes give you so much perception that you are able to distinguish what was previously deemed indistinguishable even by the more perceptive byakugan, then obviously it would come as no surprise that the eyes also grants more perception of movement as well.  All of that in addition to sasuke's way better reflexive feats are evidence that EMS offers better pre-cognition, it's just not 100% blatantly stated proof that it does, which is a burden of proof that your positive argument that the EMS DOESN'T boost pre-cognition can't sustain either.



Kyokan said:


> It's a Shonen manga, I don't think it's wrong to suggest Sauce improved that much. He is Naruto's rivals; Sharingan pre-cognition is huge as well; you literally have to be roof-tier in reflexes to match the Sharingan's advantage. *What happens when you couple roof tier reflexes with roof tier Kekkai Genkai?*


Being rooftier in reflexes will not give you better reactions that the sharingan as the sharingan allows you to see what's going to happen before it actually happens which will be forever above reacting to things that have already taken place.  And the bolded, his rooftier reflexes are the result of his rooftier kekke genkai so there is no coupling it's one and the same.

finally it's obviously not wrong to suggest Sauce improved that much but HOW did he improve that much?  By magically increasing his base reflexes or by, oh idk, gaining the EMS which is the upgrade of what canonically allows him to have super reflexes in the first place.  One is 'magic' the other is an actual explanation, the only reason your refuting the explanation is because it's not 100% proven because we don't get an explicit statement despite the 'magical' explanation being way way less supported.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> I don't think so, had sasuke lacked a reaction he'd have shown a "!" or "!?" above his head.  If it was just the guessing game, I don't see why Sasuke wouldn't be able to put up his susanoo or at the very least activate his EMS before the spikes had time to grow attack him and itachi had time to jump in the air and put susanoo around sasuke.


Yet Kishimoto opted not to show Sasuke reacting at all nor did Sasuke attempt any action at all. Why the hell would he not do anything? If I'm fighting someone and I can see them attacking I would attempt to help my ally or defend myself just to be 100% certain. I'm sure a combat pragmist like Sasuke would do the same instead of going "Nah man, Itachi has this. I'll just chill and do nothing."



> If the bolded is true, then you can't compare sasuke to edo itachi as he had kabuto's fight and more time to master his sharingan (which he just got) before his feats against juubito.


Itachi was with him while fighting Kabuto, they are still comparable.

How does (reflexes)

EMS Sasuke (current) > Edo Itachi > EMS Sasuke (Kabuto) > MS Sasuke sound then?

Cause I'll take that 


> How did kakashi get much stronger? Amount of times he could use kamui, correct?  Does that apply to his physical and mental reactions?


Everything, more techs/superior stamina/arguably better speed and reflexes yes. War Arc Kakashi is on par with Itachi/Jiraiya almost, Pein Arc Kakashi is way below Pein Arc SM Naruto who is probably equal to the above two.



> That's simply playing the super skeptic and catering to the fallacious reasoning of saying 'you need X amount of proof before I think your argument is valid' despite the fact that that exact same logic would make the alternative argument which is that it DOESN'T increase reflexes 'pure conjecture'.  So no, both arguments have the same burden of proof to fullfill, if you raise the bar extremely high for my argument you have to do it for yours as well and by that standard both arguments are pure conjecture.


Mine is less conjecture as I am simply sticking with what is established by Kishimoto. That 3 tomoe offers pre-cognition and nothing suggests MS/EMS improves it. If something pops up to suggest otherwise then I will concede. Burden of proof is on you.



> Yes it is, if the eyes give you so much perception that you are able to distinguish what was previously deemed indistinguishable even by the more perceptive byakugan, then obviously it would come as no surprise that the eyes also grants more perception of movement as well.  All of that in addition to sasuke's way better reflexive feats are evidence that EMS offers better pre-cognition, it's just not 100% blatantly stated proof that it does, which is a burden of proof that your positive argument that the EMS DOESN'T boost pre-cognition can't sustain either.


I disagree.

Tracking a moving object is different from distinguishing two different objects (person vs. clone). A short-sighted person can still have excellent reflexes. I still chalk it down to Sasuke's reflexes improving. 


> Being rooftier in reflexes will not give you better reactions that the sharingan as the sharingan allows you to see what's going to happen before it actually happens which will be forever above reacting to things that have already taken place.  And the bolded, his rooftier reflexes are the result of his rooftier kekke genkai so there is no coupling it's one and the same.


But Sasuke himself has reflexes, Sharingan simply augments it. By vastly increasing his reflexes I don't see why he can't suddenly adapt to Juubito's speed.



> finally it's obviously not wrong to suggest Sauce improved that much but HOW did he improve that much?  By magically increasing his base reflexes or by, oh idk, gaining the EMS which is the upgrade of what canonically allows him to have super reflexes in the first place.  One is 'magic' the other is an actual explanation, the only reason your refuting the explanation is because it's not 100% proven because we don't get an explicit statement despite the 'magical' explanation being way way less supported.


Is it so bad to accept characters get stronger in shonen? It's possible EMS is the reason but it's refuted by two things.
- Itachi reacted faster to Muki Tensei (I suppose we can agree to disagree here but I really struggle to see how Sasuke reacted quicker)
- No statement or proof suggesting EMS/MS boost pre-cognition.

I honestly think Sasuke got EMS, at that point his pre-cognition is slighty better than his Kage Summit MS counterpart due to him getting stronger from the Kage/Danzo/Naruto fights. He fights Kabuto with Itachi (at this point his reflexes are worse then Itachi still), improves further from the fight. Then in the current fight just managed to improve a shit tonne more and surpasses Itachi.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 2, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Yet Kishimoto opted not to show Sasuke reacting at all nor did Sasuke attempt any action at all. Why the hell would he not do anything? If I'm fighting someone and I can see them attacking I would attempt to help my ally or defend myself just to be 100% certain. I'm sure a combat pragmist like Sasuke would do the same instead of going "Nah man, Itachi has this. I'll just chill and do nothing."


Explained already.  Itachi is more than capable of defending himself, sasuke knows this, and itachi is the one who is immortal and has unlimited chakra.  So why waste your chakra on someone who you know can defend against the attack, can get hit by those attacks and has unlimited chakra?  no reason.



Kyokan said:


> Itachi was with him while fighting Kabuto, they are still comparable.
> 
> How does (reflexes)
> 
> ...


That's only where your logic gets you, not that I agree with that logic at all.



Kyokan said:


> Everything, more techs/superior stamina/arguably better speed and reflexes yes. War Arc Kakashi is on par with Itachi/Jiraiya almost, Pein Arc Kakashi is way below Pein Arc SM Naruto who is probably equal to the above two.


- unless you can show kakashi didn't have raikiri chain, then you can't claim he had more techs
- superior stamina is only true in respects to kamui
- I don't see how he has better speed or reflexes in the war

kakashi is only on par with itachi and jiraiya because of his kamui feats in the war which is usually how he competes with really anybody of that level.



Kyokan said:


> Mine is less conjecture as I am simply sticking with what is established by Kishimoto. That 3 tomoe offers pre-cognition *and nothing suggests MS/EMS improves it.* If something pops up to suggest otherwise then I will concede. Burden of proof is on you.


The bolded is in no way shape or form established by kishimoto as in order for that to have been established you would need some kind of statement or direct showing that shows that EMS doesn't boost your reflexes.



Kyokan said:


> I disagree.
> 
> Tracking a moving object is different from distinguishing two different objects (person vs. clone). A short-sighted person can still have excellent reflexes. I still chalk it down to Sasuke's reflexes improving.


been over this already, I'm not saying that distinguishing two different objects = precog, I'm saying that if the sharingan is explicitly stated to give more perception in that regard, why wouldn't it not give more perception in predicting movements as well?  Was the MS ever stated or implied to give more perception than the three tomoe?  If not then it doesn't apply to the MS vs 3 tomoe.



Kyokan said:


> But Sasuke himself has reflexes, Sharingan simply augments it. By vastly increasing his reflexes I don't see why he can't suddenly adapt to Juubito's speed.
> 
> Is it so bad to accept characters get stronger in shonen? It's possible EMS is the reason but it's refuted by two things.
> - Itachi reacted faster to Muki Tensei (I suppose we can agree to disagree here but I really struggle to see how Sasuke reacted quicker)
> - No statement or proof suggesting EMS/MS boost pre-cognition.


Neither of those two are refutations.  A refutation is something that disproves the notion. Absence of an explicit manga statement is not some kind of refutation of a proposition.  And the first point is even worse since I've already given you the scan that shows sauske was using his 3 tomoe when muki tensei was used so it has nothing to do with the EMS.



Kyokan said:


> I honestly think Sasuke got EMS, at that point his pre-cognition is slighty better than his Kage Summit MS counterpart due to him getting stronger from the Kage/Danzo/Naruto fights. He fights Kabuto with Itachi (at this point his reflexes are worse then Itachi still), improves further from the fight. Then in the current fight just managed to improve a shit tonne more and surpasses Itachi.


You can believe that, and that would be consistent with your view of Sasuke, but that's not what I see from the manga.  People don't just radically increase their mental and physical reactions by just having a few fights they have to train or get some kind of powerup in order to do that. Sasuke literally did nothing after the kage summit except sit with his eyes closed in a cave with white zetsu.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Explained already.  Itachi is more than capable of defending himself, sasuke knows this, and itachi is the one who is immortal and has unlimited chakra.  So why waste your chakra on someone who you know can defend against the attack, can get hit by those attacks and has unlimited chakra?  no reason.


Wait you think the same guy who whipped out V4 Susanoo for fodders is going to care about a Susanoo limb? Sasuke has so much stamina now he rarely needs to worry about stamina. The guy's been spamming Amaterasu/Susanoo/summons/PS and hasn't looked tired yet, granted he got got one Kyuubi recharge but even some of the shit he pulled this war would've had MS Sasuke dead ten times over.

The better question is, why take no action at all? That's even dumber then protecting your ally. Unless...he couldn't react as fast.



> That's only where your logic gets you, not that I agree with that logic at all.


It's plausible, the only thing I'm personally sure of is Itachi had better reflexes then Kabuto-fight EMS Sasuke.



> - unless you can show kakashi didn't have raikiri chain, then you can't claim he had more techs
> - superior stamina is only true in respects to kamui
> - I don't see how he has better speed or reflexes in the war


Prove to me that Kakashi didn't have Raiden chain in Part I first. Actually the fact he didn't really worry about stamina as much (when compared to Pein/Immortals fight) suggests his stamina is higher. 



> kakashi is only on par with itachi and jiraiya because of his kamui feats in the war which is usually how he competes with really anybody of that level.


Higher MS mastery = Stronger.



> The bolded is in no way shape or form established by kishimoto as in order for that to have been established you would need some kind of statement or direct showing that shows that EMS doesn't boost your reflexes.


That doesn't work, otherwise any theory we conjure should be right. I could claim Yata's Mirror tanks Bijuudama yet you would disagree because there's no proof. Same thing, here there is no proof EMS boosts pre-cognition.



> been over this already, I'm not saying that distinguishing two different objects = precog, I'm saying that if the sharingan is explicitly stated to give more perception in that regard, why wouldn't it not give more perception in predicting movements as well?  Was the MS ever stated or implied to give more perception than the three tomoe?  If not then it doesn't apply to the MS vs 3 tomoe.


Because Kishimoto hasn't said anything. He noted the wood clones, he noted the genjutsu. But why not have Sasuke say "These eyes, I can see with these eyes.." like he did with KN0 Naruto. 



> Neither of those two are refutations.  A refutation is something that disproves the notion. Absence of an explicit manga statement is not some kind of refutation of a proposition.  And the first point is even worse since I've already given you the scan that shows sauske was using his 3 tomoe when muki tensei was used so it has nothing to do with the EMS.


I've already proved activating MS makes no difference, Sasuke couldn't track V2 Ei with 3 tomoe nor with MS. Itachi used 3 tomoe to fight KCM Naruto despite the fact 'he couldn't have been holding back', why not use MS for a even greater pre-cog? Because it offers nothing. Sasuke used 3 tomoe against B; gets wrecked. Why not use MS for better pre-cog? Because it offers nothing.



> You can believe that, and that would be consistent with your view of Sasuke, but that's not what I see from the manga.  People don't just radically increase their mental and physical reactions by just having a few fights they have to train or get some kind of powerup in order to do that. Sasuke literally did nothing after the kage summit except sit with his eyes closed in a cave with white zetsu.


Kakashi got stronger through simply fighting, Naruto in Part I got stronger through simply fighting. I don't see why Sasuke couldn't do the same.


----------



## Nikushimi (Dec 2, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Itachi's true power is like archeology. The more we know about stuff in general, the more power we find out Itachi had.



Sounds more like Schroedinger's Cat, tbh. 



ueharakk said:


> because people don't physically leap to use shunshin......



I'm pretty sure they can if they want to use it for that. What's stopping them?



> So shunshin is not simply movement from point A to point B, it's literally whenever a character uses chakra to increase their speed?  Well then I guess Sakura used shunshin when she made herself move faster by putting chakra to her feet?



Probably; we lack a detailed explanation of Shunshin's mechanics, but the Raikage seems to charge his whole body for Raiton: Shunshin.



> Well if that's the case, then put base naruto on the same level as KCM Naruto since he keeps up with Base Sasuke's speed.



There's still a difference in their base speed, though, and- up until a certain point, at least -a difference in chakra control, which should influence their Shunshin speed.



> Wait now hold on.  By your above assertions that despite Ei running at minato, he was using shunshin, then why do you conclude that Sandaime raikage and Ei weren't using shunshin when they attacked naruto and Sasuke?



I'm not sure if it's a rule, but it seems like characters generally tend to come out of Shunshin before they attack, assuming they use it to get in close to a target quickly. Think about when A went to chop Sasuke. Direct-line attacks may be an exception, so that might not explain why they neglected to use Shunshin when attacking Naruto and Sasuke.

Because Shunshin is a technique and because their maximum velocities require an enormous amount of chakra to achieve, it's not something they use constantly when they move; it's a strategic thing, like when A needed to dodge Amaterasu or when he tried to deliver the killing-blow on Naruto.

Beside the lack of any apparent characteristics of Shunshin no Jutsu in the examples you gave, there's also the basic intuition that says it would make Naruto and Sasuke that much faster than their non-Shunshining opponents. If that were the case, then either Sasuke or Naruto should've been the ones with the speed advantages in those fights if they simply elected to use their own Shunshin, and them choosing not to take advantage of that makes far less sense than just assuming the Raikage were not relying on Shunshin to augment their attack speed.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 2, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Wait you think the same guy who whipped out V4 Susanoo for fodders is going to care about a Susanoo limb? Sasuke has so much stamina now he rarely needs to worry about stamina. The guy's been spamming Amaterasu/Susanoo/summons/PS and hasn't looked tired yet, granted he got got one Kyuubi recharge but even some of the shit he pulled this war would've had MS Sasuke dead ten times over.
> 
> The better question is, why take no action at all? That's even dumber then protecting your ally. Unless...he couldn't react as fast.


That only addresses one of the points: sasuke's stamina.  The rest has been addressed, if itachi is more than capable of protecting himself at no cost, then there's no reason to do so.



Kyokan said:


> Prove to me that Kakashi didn't have Raiden chain in Part I first. Actually the fact he didn't really worry about stamina as much (when compared to Pein/Immortals fight) suggests his stamina is higher.


I don't need to prove to you that kakashi didn't have raiden chain then.  You are the one asserting that he didn't have it, thus you have the burden of proof to do so.  
He worried about stamina just as much as in the pain fight.  He makes a clone and worries about his chakra levels.  



Kyokan said:


> Higher MS mastery = Stronger.


Sure



Kyokan said:


> That doesn't work, otherwise any theory we conjure should be right. I could claim Yata's Mirror tanks Bijuudama yet you would disagree because there's no proof. Same thing, here there is no proof EMS boosts pre-cognition.


Um that's not at all what my logic is saying.  I'm not saying that if we lack a statement that says something is false, then something is true.  I'm saying that if we don't have a statement that says something is true, then it doesn't mean that something is false.  And Yata mirror doesn't tank a bijuudama because we use arbitrary scaling of the mirror to susanoo itself, not because the mirror has no feats.  If PS was using the same mirror, obviously it could tank a bijuudama.  It's all based on whatever evidence we have on hand, not absence of evidence.

And you can't say 'there is no proof' because if you mean 'proof' as in 100% conclusive evidence then there is none for pretty much anything that hasn't been explicitly stated by the author, and so almost nothing can be argued by that strict of a standard.



Kyokan said:


> Because Kishimoto hasn't said anything. He noted the wood clones, he noted the genjutsu. But why not have Sasuke say "These eyes, I can see with these eyes.." like he did with KN0 Naruto.


Because it's redundant?  Because it's expected of the audience to know how massive a powerup the EMS.



Kyokan said:


> I've already proved activating MS makes no difference, Sasuke couldn't track V2 Ei with 3 tomoe nor with MS. Itachi used 3 tomoe to fight KCM Naruto despite the fact 'he couldn't have been holding back', why not use MS for a even greater pre-cog? Because it offers nothing. Sasuke used 3 tomoe against B; gets wrecked. Why not use MS for better pre-cog? Because it offers nothing.


Why not use susanoo or amaterasu instead of taijutsu?  it's the same reason, the zombies decisions are controlled by the user, however they don't hold back in carrying out that command.

In addition to that, does the MS grant any increase in perception at all?



Kyokan said:


> Kakashi got stronger through simply fighting, Naruto in Part I got stronger through simply fighting. I don't see why Sasuke couldn't do the same.


Yeah throughout the entirety of part 1, and neither of them got a boost so great that it made them go from not being able to track V2 Ei to being able to track Juubito.


----------



## Ersa (Dec 2, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> That only addresses one of the points: sasuke's stamina.  The rest has been addressed, if itachi is more than capable of protecting himself at no cost, then there's no reason to do so.


Yet you're blindly clinging to Sasuke doing something that's not IC to defend your position. If he did react quicker, he would have had more then enough time to realize Itachi was trying to protect him and do the same. We're going round in circles here, most people here agree Itachi reacted first.



> I don't need to prove to you that kakashi didn't have raiden chain then.  You are the one asserting that he didn't have it, thus you have the burden of proof to do so.  He worried about stamina just as much as in the pain fight.  He makes a clone and worries about his chakra levels.


When a main character shows off a new technique, it's usually that a new technique. Unlike Madara or Itachi who show off their already learnt techniques; Kakashi and Naruto build new techniques. Pein Arc Nardo didn't have COR in base but he got it in the war.

Yes but that Kakashi was already tired from fighting in the war. And the worrying didn't really matter cause he goes on to spam Kamui and Raikiri endlessly after unlike Pein Arc where a Raikiri ontop of a 1-2 more uses of Kamui killed him.



> Um that's not at all what my logic is saying.  I'm not saying that if we lack a statement that says something is false, then something is true.  I'm saying that if we don't have a statement that says something is true, then it doesn't mean that something is false.  And Yata mirror doesn't tank a bijuudama because we use arbitrary scaling of the mirror to susanoo itself, not because the mirror has no feats.  If PS was using the same mirror, obviously it could tank a bijuudama.  It's all based on whatever evidence we have on hand, not absence of evidence.


Actually we have a suggestion that Yata can't be busted by anything, it can't be scaled to Susanoo because it isn't Susanoo but is a legendary item independent of it. If you want to claim EMS boosts pre-cog without proof then you also have to accept Yata could tank Bijuudama.



> And you can't say 'there is no proof' because if you mean 'proof' as in 100% conclusive evidence then there is none for pretty much anything that hasn't been explicitly stated by the author, and so almost nothing can be argued by that strict of a standard.


You have a theory based on a logical deduction I agree but as it stands it's a theory backed by nothing. I am simply standing by Kishimoto's suggestion that 3 tomoe boosts pre-cognition and that he has said nothing about MS/EMS. Neither of our theories are right but mine has some more concrete evidence.



> Because it's redundant?  Because it's expected of the audience to know how massive a powerup the EMS.


Massive stamina boost, Perfect Susanoo, no MS blindness, clone perception and no MS backlash are incredible boosts that seperate a top tier from a higher tier. Kishimoto doesn't give a shit about redundancy either, did you forget Naruto vs. Obito TnJ V1-12.



> Why not use susanoo or amaterasu instead of taijutsu?  it's the same reason, the zombies decisions are controlled by the user, however they don't hold back in carrying out that command.
> 
> In addition to that, does the MS grant any increase in perception at all?


B example? Ei example?

Why does EMS boost perception but not MS? Burden of proof is on you here.



> Yeah throughout the entirety of part 1, and neither of them got a boost so great that it made them go from not being able to track V2 Ei to being able to track Juubito.


If you reread the Chunin Exam Arc, Naruto mentions he got a hell of a lot stronger after Forest of Death. And you are over exaggerating that boost; I don't see why EMS Sasuke can't be so much more reflextive than an in-experienced MS Sasuke. Look at the difference between 2 tomoe Wave Arc Sauce and 2 tomoe VOTE Sauce.


----------



## ueharakk (Dec 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm pretty sure they can if they want to use it for that. What's stopping them?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Where do you get the difference in their base speed though?  Isn't everything that KCM Naruto does that is 'fast' attributed to his shunshin?  If any movement that is deemed 'fast' is attributed to shunshin, then how can kcm naruto's non-shunshin speed be faster than base naruto's speed?  Or really how can anyone's non-shunshin speed be faster than base naruto's?  Unless they can't use shunshin, can't you simply say that any feat they perform that puts them above naruto is due to shunshin?




Nikushimi said:


> I'm not sure if it's a rule, but it seems like characters generally tend to come out of Shunshin before they attack, assuming they use it to get in close to a target quickly. Think about when A went to chop Sasuke. Direct-line attacks may be an exception, so that might not explain why they neglected to use Shunshin when attacking Naruto and Sasuke.


I don't think they come out of shunshin, it's just that the opponents whom are being shunshinned against usually only react to them after they use shunshin.  Half the reason Ei's hits are so powerful is because of the momentum he gets behind them via his shunshin.



Nikushimi said:


> Because Shunshin is a technique and because their maximum velocities require an enormous amount of chakra to achieve, it's not something they use constantly when they move; it's a strategic thing, like when A needed to dodge Amaterasu or when he tried to deliver the killing-blow on Naruto.


But you said that Ei and Naruto were using shunshin in their scuffle.  They were literally spamming that technique, and neither were in the least bit exhausted.  Ei attacked Sasuke in V1, Sandaime raikage has unlimited chakra, probably has much more than ei due to his stamina feats, and would only be using shunshins comparable to the one's ei was spamming.  So Sandaime raikage especially when using his strongest tech to cut off naruto's legs would have all the reason to use shunshin and no reason not to.



Nikushimi said:


> Beside the lack of any apparent characteristics of Shunshin no Jutsu in the examples you gave, there's also the basic intuition that says it would make Naruto and Sasuke that much faster than their non-Shunshining opponents. If that were the case, then either Sasuke or Naruto should've been the ones with the speed advantages in those fights if they simply elected to use their own Shunshin, and them choosing not to take advantage of that makes far less sense than just assuming the Raikage were not relying on Shunshin to augment their attack speed.


Except they don't need to be faster than either Sandaime or Ei's shunshin speed in order to counterblitz them and you probably know how I will defend this point: KN0 Naruto vs Sasuke at Vote.

During that fight, the sharingan mechanics that allow the user to easily counterblitz people who possess an overwhelming speed advantage were thoroughly explained: it allows the user to see an image of the movement before it even happens.  And that's how sasuke is able to counterblitz people like Ei, by predicting his movement *like he did right here*.  It's the same thing with naruto's SM.


----------



## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Dec 2, 2013)

Counting Hiraishin:

1. Minato
2. Tobirama
3. Juubito
4. BM Minato
5. BM/BSM Naruto
6. Ei
7. Gated Guy
8. Base Minato
9. 3rd Raikage
10. Sasuke/Itachi/Kakashi

Without Hiraishin:

1. Juubito
2. BM Minato
3. BM/BSM Naruto
4. Ei
5. Gated Guy
6. Base Minato
7. 3rd Raikage
8. Sasuke/Itachi/Kakashi


----------

