# Kid Buu vs Flash



## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

Ok as the thread says kid Buu vs The Flash. 

Rules, Flash can not steal speed the sameway buu is not aloud to blow up the planet. For this fight aswell use Kid Buu at his strongest like anime version, Flash is at his normal strength what we see in and out, not some crazy one of shit.


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## Kimimaro (Jul 24, 2006)

Well, Kid Buu can't really kill the Flash because he can't blow up the planet, and I doubt he'd be able to catch him. However, unless Flash somehow destroys every single molecule Kid Buu possesses, no one wins this fight.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

Hmm well i could see Buu spreading the earth with Explosions, that would do the trick, the other can not explode, but he can still screw it up big time raiding every corner till he hits the flash.

I don't see Flash vibrating and making buu explode thus killing him, as buu would be able to link back together, i also don't see the infinite mass doing much good, he could probably seperate himself in time, or recover as he has slick regen abilities.


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## Kimimaro (Jul 24, 2006)

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if Flash can phase through solid objects, can he do the same with the explosions?


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> Correct me if I'm mistaken, but if Flash can phase through solid objects, can he do the same with the explosions?



I don't really know, anyway i beleive it isn't that easy as he ran from explosions set by deathstroke he also got pierced with a sword.


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## Reznor (Jul 24, 2006)

By "can't blow up the planet" do you mean that the planet is definited as an ideal planet that can be assumed to be able to resist Buu's attacks or that Buu isn't allowed to blow it up?


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## Newzfoxjr (Jul 24, 2006)

I hate how everyone here thinks The Flash is invincible...

Kid Buu would win.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> By "can't blow up the planet" do you mean that the planet is definited as an ideal planet that can be assumed to be able to resist Buu's attacks or that Buu isn't allowed to blow it up?



Hmm i mean the planets can abosorb the attacks somewhat, like i guess it rengerates it self. Both can unleash their fury.


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## Reznor (Jul 24, 2006)

> Hmm i mean the planets can abosorb the attacks somewhat, like i guess it rengerates it self. Both can unleash their fury.


 So, Kid Buu would hit the planet with a blast (that could easily destroy a planet like Earth), and it would just envelope the planet, but the planet would just remain after the blast?


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## Gambitz (Jul 24, 2006)

i highly dought the flash would win...ill go with kid buu on this one


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## konflikti (Jul 24, 2006)

I would call stalemate here. I'm reasonable enough to believe that Flash would not be able to destroy Buu in the time it takes him to get in the air. Buu can't really get Flash with ki blasts. One could argue that Flash might get tired first, but one could also argue time-travel.


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## Phenomenol (Jul 24, 2006)

WTF!!!!

Kid Buu in a CURBSTOMP!!!!!!!!!


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> So, Kid Buu would hit the planet with a blast (that could easily destroy a planet like Earth), and it would just envelope the planet, but the planet would just remain after the blast?



Yeh like that, the planet will remain in good shape after any attack, this is so both fighters can unleash what they have without it blowing up.



> I would call stalemate here. I'm reasonable enough to believe that Flash would not be able to destroy Buu in the time it takes him to get in the air. Buu can't really get Flash with ki blasts. One could argue that Flash might get tired first, but one could also argue time-travel.



If he time travels what exactly would he do, they are put in a netural universe, where their time is not really there, so the furtherest he could go is the beggining of the fight.


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## konflikti (Jul 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> If he time travels what exactly would he do, they are put in a netural universe, where their time is not really there, so the furtherest he could go is the beggining of the fight.



Well, maybe you should have said that he can't use time travel to anything useful in the first post then. You're taking two very important abilities out from Flash and none from Buu.


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## crazymtf (Jul 24, 2006)

I'd say buu, though it'll take awhile.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> Well, maybe you should have said that he can't use time travel to anything useful in the first post then. You're taking two very important abilities out from Flash and none from Buu.



Right, look at it this way, when you put them in a verse, they are placed in a netural verse, where both of their powers can mix, for time travel to work against a dbz character, they would be placed in the dbz verse, where speed force wouldn't exist, thus Flash not being able to move. So yeh you can put him in the dbz verse where he could travel back, only he would have no powers to do so. It wasn't a rule i set to hamper the Flash it is logic.

He either in a situation where he can time travel to affect kid Buu then he would have no speed, or he is in a neutral verse where he can not reach Kid buu's time, then he would have speed.

Either way it wouldn't matter much as he doesn't know where to actually find Kid buu, or his creators.


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## Reznor (Jul 24, 2006)

> If he time travels what exactly would he do, they are put in a netural universe, where their time is not really there, so the furtherest he could go is the beggining of the fight.


 This is a good point. Even if he did it in the DBZ universe, he'd still be dealing with Fat Buu.
All going back in the fight does is increases Buu's stamina advantage.

I favor Flash usually against Goku, but not against Buu.
It's a stalemate at the very least for Buu.



> Buu can't really get Flash with ki blasts.


 The thing is, Buu only fought people with which conventional combat would work.

Not saying that that alone proves anything, but the fact that Buu has shown other abilites.

Like the yelling through dimensions and the magical abilites. I think affecting him while he's intangable is _possible_.

Thing is, planet-destroying attacks will definitely hit him, but will get phased through, and the magic will get dodged.

It's hard to say.


> You're taking two very important abilities out from Flash and none from Buu.


 He's taking away the Buu's ability to remove the battlefield.

Basically, neither get to negate the battle.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 24, 2006)

Kid Buu turns him into chocolate, then gets pwnd by Goku.


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## chaoserver (Jul 24, 2006)

Er kidbuu most def. Theres nothing Flash can do to kill him, whereas, although it would be difficult, eventually Kidbuu could nab Flash.


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## konflikti (Jul 24, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> He's taking away the Buu's ability to remove the battlefield.
> 
> Basically, neither get to negate the battle.



He's also taking away Flash's speed steal, for no apparent reason.


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## chaoserver (Jul 24, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> He's also taking away Flash's speed steal, for no apparent reason.


If they both had their powers kid buu goes into sky, flash needs to touch buu to steal speed so hes screwed *BAM* Planets gone, Flash is dead and Buu regrows.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 24, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> I would call stalemate here. I'm reasonable enough to believe that Flash would not be able to destroy Buu in the time it takes him to get in the air. Buu can't really get Flash with ki blasts. One could argue that Flash might get tired first, but one could also argue time-travel.



The Flash never gets tired, he has infinite endurance.

I don't see Buu destroying the Flash if he can't destroy the planet, even in that case the Flash could just go back in time and leave the planet.

As for the Flash destroying Buu, it would depend entirely on wether or not he could vibrate Buu's molecules fast enough to destroy them all.


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## chaoserver (Jul 24, 2006)

Tsukiyomi said:
			
		

> I don't see Buu destroying the Flash if he can't destroy the planet, even in that case the Flash could just go back in time and leave the planet.


Yeah, No. He couldnt go back in tim without a surface(If I recall he needs to run  to go back in time), and also he would be DEAD.


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## Tsukiyomi (Jul 24, 2006)

chaoserver said:
			
		

> Yeah, No. He couldnt go back in tim without a surface(If I recall he needs to run  to go back in time), and also he would be DEAD.



You're assuming that the Flash wouldn't be fast enough to start moving before Buu's attack reaches the planet.  Thats just stupid, he could run back in time before Buu even finishes his thoughts about where he wants to aim.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 24, 2006)

Coming from a huge Flash fan, I dont see him winning this. I think it would be Kid Buu's victory or at the very least a stale mate. The only real way Flash has to win is by a Speed Force dump, but that would be very hard to do on Buu because of his body and Buu would probably just be able to break out anyways with his dimension crossing scream or whatever. It would really just be a matter of time before Buu got a good hit on Flash with a huge Ki blast and it would be over.

Although, one possible way for Flash to win would be to drag Buu to the end of time where Entropy crushes all matter and dump him there (like he did to defeat Death, and like they did to Doomsday IIRC). That would be kinda hard to do to Buu though.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Jul 24, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Ok as the thread says kid Buu vs The Flash.
> 
> Rules, Flash can not steal speed the sameway buu is not aloud to blow up the planet. For this fight aswell use Kid Buu at his strongest like anime version, Flash is at his normal strength what we see in and out, not some crazy one of shit.



...
Why did you ban Flash from stealing speed?
What do you mean one of shit?  Certain "crazy things he's done", have been done repeatedly. Speed force travel express of doom! Why did you take anime Buu? Who I'm told was shown as blowing up the galaxy... (crazy filler ) - lastly, it even takes place on a planet which cannot be destroyed. So, Buu can just make an explosion as big as the planet 

Yeah anyway, Anime Buu wins easily, because you've personally seen to it to stack everything against Flash before the fight even starts. 

You just wanted to make Flash lose, didn't you?


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> He's also taking away Flash's speed steal, for no apparent reason.



No i did it for a particular reason to stop shit like.

''Flash wins, he would just steal his speed''.

Took away planet blowing up to stop shit like.

''Buu wins he just blows up the planet and reforms''.



> Yeah anyway, Anime Buu wins easily, because you've personally seen to it to stack everything against Flash before the fight even starts.



I haven't seen to it that he would loose this fight, flash is able to move as fast as he can without any restraint. And no i didn't want flash to loose this match, i thought it was pretty even when i decided it. 

All i have removed is the ability for Flash to steal speed, and the ability for Buu to instantly destroy the planet.

Flash can run back in time, but for him to actually damage Buu, he would need to be in the dbz verse where that time line exist, if he is in the dbz verse there is no speed force.


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## Deleted member 45015 (Jul 24, 2006)

Kid Buu can't really hit The Flash, nor can he win by blowing up the planet, nor can he match The Flashes speed, nor can he copy his speed

The Flash can't hurt Kid Buu physically, nor can he destroy him on a molecular level

It's a stalemate, a draw, a tie.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> Kid Buu can't really hit The Flash, nor can he win by blowing up the planet, nor can he match The Flashes speed, nor can he copy his speed
> 
> The Flash can't hurt Kid Buu physically, nor can he destroy him on a molecular level
> 
> ...



Hmm well with enough beatings Buu will hurt, if Flash can continuely vibrate through him, that could do the trick, he could also run round the earth many times, over gaining a lot of speed, do some shit where he steals speed from every object ( He is not a loud to steal it from Buu) then infinite mass punch him. That is away he could damage him good.

Buu could ambush him with attacks, though he couldn't hit him dead on, if he placed them all over he possibly could, though i don't know if the Flash can phaise through the attacks.


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## SSJ2 Lawnchair (Jul 24, 2006)

Kid buu can copy his opponents abilities just by looking seeing them done.

He never loses power, he can regenerate from ash, and has the ability to teleport.  Even if the flash can't be touched at first, buu has infinite stamina, the flash does not


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 24, 2006)

Wow, this is lame. You are taking Buu at his strongest, and extremely limiting what Flash can do.

Point: One doesn't need to touch someone to steal their speed. In _Titans of Tomorrow_, Future Bart doesn't touch past Bart, but manages to steal his speed. It's obvious that one can do it without contact. Even then, it's been shown that a Flash can steal the speed off an entire planet, including its inhabitants. Thusly, touching shouldn't be a factor for stealing speed.

Anyways, I think Flash could take it. On the Dimensional Travel: Buu essential broke out of a small pocket dimension. I'd take it as maybe a Phantom Zone-style feat (Which is impressive), but the Speed Force, or even the void that is the multiverse would be much harder, as the dimensional barriers between those two are much stronger due to their vastness. The larger the universe, the stronger the barrier between them.

Anyways, if Flash simply kept vibrating through him, he might be able to hurt him enuogh to stop his regeneration. Otherwise, I doubt Buu could really touch him. 

On a more interesting note, the Flash DOES have the potential to fly: He knows Johnny/Jesse Quick's speed forumla, which granted them super speed AND flight. This would explain why KC Flash is able to run without touching the ground. So it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility for Flash to be able to fly.


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## SSJ2 Lawnchair (Jul 24, 2006)

> Anyways, if Flash simply kept vibrating through him, he might be able to hurt him enuogh to stop his regeneration. Otherwise, I doubt Buu could really touch him.



Even when kid buu had beaten mr buu to near death, the latter could still regenerate.


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## Kage no Yume (Jul 24, 2006)

So basically:

Flash wins if he touches Buu and takes him to the end of time (where non-existsence is nigh).

Buu wins if he catches Flash with an attack.


I'll place my bets on the time traveller.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 24, 2006)

SSJ2 Lawnchair said:
			
		

> Even when kid buu had beaten mr buu to near death, the latter could still regenerate.



Super Buu had started to stop regenerating after Vegetto started nailing him.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 24, 2006)

This is really a draw,but how do you consider Kid Buu the strongest Buu?Canon wise he is the second or third weakest(debatable),so Gunners isn't stacking against the Flash completely he is kind of helping.I'd be happy to break it down for you if you'd like.

It really depends on if the Flash can get tired,if he can't then it's a draw because if he got close to Buu it runs the risk of getting him killed,if he gets tired then Buu will get him.The regen really is a bitch and is something Flash can't overcome if he gets tired.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> Wow, this is lame. You are taking Buu at his strongest, and extremely limiting what Flash can do.



No i haven't capped what Flash can do, i have prevented him stealing speed, as i have prevented Buu blowing up the planet, to prevent people taking the quick way out of it, if Buu could blow up the planet and flash could steal the speed it would be stuck in the debate of.

''Buu would blow up the planet, no flash would steal the speed before he could do so''

Didn't want to go that path.

I haven't prevented Flash going back in time, i just showed why that wouldn't work in the way most use it, for Flash to go back in time and kill Buu's creators, he would have to be in the dbz verse, being in the dbz verse means no speed force, meaning no speed to travel back in time.



> Anyways, I think Flash could take it. On the Dimensional Travel: Buu essential broke out of a small pocket dimension. I'd take it as maybe a Phantom Zone-style feat (Which is impressive), but the Speed Force, or even the void that is the multiverse would be much harder, as the dimensional barriers between those two are much stronger due to their vastness. The larger the universe, the stronger the barrier between them.



I think the Time chamber went on for ever, like it has no ending to it so the barrier would have been strong. This is assuming the flash can grab Buu and gain the momentum necessiary, if he grabs buu, he could actually absord the flash, or break into many piece and reform.



> On a more interesting note, the Flash DOES have the potential to fly: He knows Johnny/Jesse Quick's speed forumla, which granted them super speed AND flight. This would explain why KC Flash is able to run without touching the ground. So it isn't completely out of the realm of possibility for Flash to be able to fly.



But he can not fly, he knows the formula yes, but he can not actually fly, shown in JLA when he was about to fall to the ground, he would have died if superman never caught him.



> This is really a draw,but how do you consider Kid Buu the strongest Buu?Canon wise he is the second or third weakest(debatable),so Gunners isn't stacking against the Flash completely he is kind of helping.I'd be happy to break it down for you if you'd like.



When i say Kid Buu, i don't mean at his peak, i mean at his peak portayol, ( skip the galaxy blowing thing).



> It really depends on if the Flash can get tired,if he can't then it's a draw because if he got close to Buu it runs the risk of getting him killed,if he gets tired then Buu will get him.The regen really is a bitch and is something Flash can't overcome if he gets tired.



The truth, though i have a feeling Buu could tire, so if he keeps taking heavy abuse he could eventually just die. Though Flash doesn't have to tire to loose, if Buu manages to trap him Flash would die as i don't think durability is one of his strengths.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 24, 2006)

Put it this way, if Kid Buu was ever written into the DC universe I could quite honestly see him being written as a pretty decent team wrecker. 

He has abilities that give him a high defense to almost all types of attack and he has ridiculous and varied offensive abilities too. I'm not sure if he can scream his way out of a dimension though, that was Super Buu but it's possible I guess.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> I'm not sure if he can scream his way out of a dimension though, that was Super Buu but it's possible I guess.



Yes that is true, so if Flash runs him to the speed force, i guess we shoudl asume him trapped there.

Still i don't see Flash taking him there, it takes momentum somewhat to do so, like when they took superboy prime, the thing is Buu can break himself and reform so i would see him doing that. That is the thing about his molecules also, i think the guy can regen from steam or was that filler?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

Curious. . . is Superboy Prime the only character in which the Flash(es) decided to trap him in the Speed Force in order the contain the threat? Or was there a previous character that was dangerous enough to warrant a Speed Force sentence?

Note, when they sent SBP into the Speed Force, it took 3 Flashes to at least subdue him at first. In addition, Jay was there for the running start; Wally later wet to Linda; Bart had help from the other speedsters (except Jesse Quick) in subduing SBP enough to send him into the Speed Force.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

WHich is why i don't beleive it woudl work against Buu, not saying he is at superboy primes level, he has sneakiness, he can break his body up then reform.

Superboy prime i think it was the threat he served to be honest, they had no way to calm him down, something needed to be done fast.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

_Superboy prime i think it was the threat he served to be honest, they had no way to calm him down, something needed to be done fast._

That, or Geoff Johns wanted an excuse to stuff the Speed Force into Bart and have SBP go insane with his conveniently built Anti-Monitor suit that feeds him yellow solar energy.


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## Gunners (Jul 24, 2006)

> That, or Geoff Johns wanted an excuse to stuff the Speed Force into Bart and have SBP go insane with his conveniently built Anti-Monitor suit that feeds him yellow solar energy.
> __________________



Yeh i guess so, i don't know why Bart had to take over though, i prefered Wally West, though i might like Bart, and since i am new it gives me a starting place.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 24, 2006)

_Yeh i guess so, i don't know why Bart had to take over though, i prefered Wally West, though i might like Bart, and since i am new it gives me a starting place._

It's a Crisis tradition.

-someone old is reintroduced back into the DCU
-lots of C-list to B-list characters die; even some A-listers
-a new hero (if not, more) is introduced and is a pivotal character
-some hero legacies are past on
-someone from the Superman family dies
-a speedster is incapcitated
-epic battle, resulting in a sacrifice (or more)
-someone is always left over for the next Crisis/retcon bomb


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Flash dumps him into the speedforce.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Curious. . . is Superboy Prime the only character in which the Flash(es) decided to trap him in the Speed Force in order the contain the threat? Or was there a previous character that was dangerous enough to warrant a Speed Force sentence?
> 
> Note, when they sent SBP into the Speed Force, it took 3 Flashes to at least subdue him at first. In addition, Jay was there for the running start; Wally later wet to Linda; Bart had help from the other speedsters (except Jesse Quick) in subduing SBP enough to send him into the Speed Force.



It's been done before, I know for sure because I remember people using it in debates before IC ever was written, but I don't remember who against.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Curious. . . is Superboy Prime the only character in which the Flash(es) decided to trap him in the Speed Force in order the contain the threat? Or was there a previous character that was dangerous enough to warrant a Speed Force sentence?
> 
> Note, when they sent SBP into the Speed Force, it took 3 Flashes to at least subdue him at first. In addition, Jay was there for the running start; Wally later wet to Linda; Bart had help from the other speedsters (except Jesse Quick) in subduing SBP enough to send him into the Speed Force.



It's been done before, I know for sure because I remember people using it in debates before IC ever was written, but I don't remember who against.


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## Reznor (Jul 25, 2006)

> Yeah anyway, Anime Buu wins easily, because you've personally seen to it to stack everything against Flash before the fight even starts.
> 
> You just wanted to make Flash lose, didn't you?


 Phht. They aren't real people. It doesn't matter if we give them a fair fight, unless this is about a fandom XD

Just say that Flash would need speed force to win, otherwise Buu takes him easily.

Like if I made a thread, about Samuel "Screech" Powers w/ a kryponite machine gun v. Baby Kal-el, it doesn't mean the handicap is meant to discredit Kal-el.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 25, 2006)

CBG and EM: The Flash pushed Savitar into the Speed Force, finally fulfilling his wish to be one with it. The villain had tried, but bounced off years earlier, and then found Wally, who had a direct connection. They fought, and in the end Wally decided to give him his wish and just gave him a shove into the Speed Force.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> Flash dumps him into the speedforce.



Hmm Buu can seperate and they reform himself, or absorb him if he makes contact, when he did it to superboy prime, he needed a huge run up and help to gain the speed necessisary and that sitll wasn't enough, i don't see him making it to the speed force before Buu would kill him.

With the fight i wasn't stacking up odds, i was eliminating some shit people spam out all the time like ''He woudl steal his speed'' or ''he would destroy the planet'' both of them have been stripped of tools which they could use to win easily in some people's eyes, so it is all fair.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Buu is too slow, he would be a living statue to Flash, Flash would have all the time in the world to do anything he wanted to him before Buu could even react.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 25, 2006)

Eh, I still think that Flash could theoretically fly. Admittedly, he's only used the formula once, and that was in the most dire of circumstances. Considering it's not something he reallly _needs_ all too often, I can understand why he wouldn't use it immediately. Against Kid Buu, though, if he knew his strength (Which is indeed very formidable), I could see him using it to get an instant power boost.

Secondly, Superman didn't NEED to catch him. Flash has demonstrated the ability to create cyclones with his arms to keep himself afloat in the air. There's even a comic where he saved woman by jumping out a plan and doing the same technique. So he almost certainly wouldn't have died, unless he was otherwise incapacitated.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 25, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Eh, I still think that Flash could theoretically fly. Admittedly, he's only used the formula once, and that was in the most dire of circumstances. Considering it's not something he reallly _needs_ all too often, I can understand why he wouldn't use it immediately. Against Kid Buu, though, if he knew his strength (Which is indeed very formidable), I could see him using it to get an instant power boost.



Na, Flash has used the speed formula atleast twice (for the first time in Issue #91 and then again in Issue #99 at the end of Terminal Velocity where he is absorbed into the speed force for the first time. He also kinda used it a third time in Issue #131 to get his new Speed Force suit to allow him to run with two broken legs.

In none of the times he has used it has he flied. In fact the first time he used it in #91 the problem was that he couldnt get to a helicopter that was to high up, so if he could fly he would have done it then. That dosnt mean that Flash couldnt theoretically fly, I just think he would have to train/hone his skill with the formula for it to work.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 25, 2006)

There was also the time when Jesse Quick spoke the Speed Formula to add onto Flash's speed in order to fight against Zoom. #200, I think.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 25, 2006)

Ah, I forgot the first time two times, but I remembered the time with Zoom.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> Buu is too slow, he would be a living statue to Flash, Flash would have all the time in the world to do anything he wanted to him before Buu could even react.



No, it does't really matter, it takes sometime to get there, this is anime buu so his speed is actually pretty good anycase. The time it takes to get there, Buu could tak a log on whats happening, absorb the flash or, seperate himself. 


*Spoiler*: __ 










From those two instances i get the impression that he can not fly as he was pretty much going to fall and die before Superman came in.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

There's "pretty good" and then there's the Flash.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> There's "pretty good" and then there's the Flash.



Oh yeh the posts which makes you completly diffrent to Phem, , i fail to see the diffrence to be honest , you didn't actually counter anything just stated your opinion something you stated to be a banable offense in your eye's.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Let's put it this way:

Flash goes multiple times the speed of light. At high - end, he can go everywhere on Earth in less than a millisecond.

Whereas Buu harldy has any speed feats at all.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> Let's put it this way:
> 
> Flash goes multiple times the speed of light. At high - end, he can go everywhere on Earth in less than a millisecond.



Doesn't he need the speed from high level people to do that, even if he moves at that speed, it depends on him damaging Buu enough, which could be hard due to his crazy regen, he can not touch every area on the Earth in a milli second, that is another example of you telling shit.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

He did so when he stole speed from the whole planet.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> He did so when he stole speed from the whole planet.



Didn't people live on the planet at the time?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Your point being....?


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> Your point being....?



meaning they are on a waste planet where people are not around, ( Isn't that how battledomes work) meaning he will not be at all places instantly.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

The planet itself still has momentum.

Every molecule of matter is constantly in motion.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> The planet itself still has momentum.
> 
> Every molecule of matter is constantly in motion.



I guess so, but the thing is he never steals speed from it when it matters, how can he do it at this spot. Also it took actual people for him to do that shit, he would be stripped of about a billion moving people.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

He'll do what he needs to do to win.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> He'll do what he needs to do to win.



Please, you are just liek Phem. ''Doing what he needs to win'' is like saying i can't think of anything but i am going to say Flash wins.

You are being a fanboy right now, and it really isn't good considering the campaign you ran against it.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

I gave a perfectly good strategy for him to win.

Your argument was that he wouldn't do it for some reason.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> I gave a perfectly good strategy for him to win.
> 
> Your argument was that he wouldn't do it for some reason.



No because he wouldn't move in all those places at once, the speed increase wouldn't be that great, i am going to take a leaf out of your book ''Picture of him taking the speed from objects that are not human and moving at the speed you say''.

I didn't say he wouldn't do it for what ever reason, i stated that he would not reach the speed you metioned as a great deal of that speed came from Human beings, since in the battledome the characters are on a netural planet without people in the way unless stated ( To my knowledge anyway).


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

You realize the Earth itself orbits the sun at a rate over over 1000 miles per second?


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> You realize the Earth itself orbits the sun at a rate over over 1000 miles per second?



They are not on Earth though are they, anyway i won't be a prick and deprive the Flash of his oppurtunity, this planet moves at the same rate as earth.

So he adds less than 1/10th of light speed to his speed, i see how this equates to him moving many times faster than light :S


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## konflikti (Jul 25, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> They are not on Earth though are they, anyway i won't be a prick and deprive the Flash of his oppurtunity, this planet moves at the same rate as earth.
> 
> So he adds less than 1/10th of light speed to his speed, i see how this equates to him moving many times faster than light :S



You do realize that the momentum of earth sized object moving that speed is incredible? It isn't simple add and subract math.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 25, 2006)

Still though,the winner is whoever outlasts the other,Kid Buu's regen is a real pain in the ass that way.So can the Flash get tired,or Kid Buu for that matter?


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## konflikti (Jul 25, 2006)

Flash's stamina was stated to be unlimited earlier in the thread. Atleast Fat Buu showed visible exhaustion after being pummeled for extended time.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> You do realize that the momentum of earth sized object moving that speed is incredible? It isn't simple add and subract math.



No i don't realize, explain a little more please.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 25, 2006)

Fat Buu or Mr.Buu,big difference on the Buu scale.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> No i don't realize, explain a little more please.



KE = 1/2mv^2


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> KE = 1/2mv^2



Right and this fomula forgive i forget, but is it finding out the force from a moving object? If so how does this have anything to do with Flash's speed increasing, i know it would make him hit harder by a good, actually wouldn't he hit lighter.

If he breaks the light boundry he would not hit at an infinite mass now would he?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

He can basically choose to hit at any mass he wants due to the wonky physics of the Speedforce.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> He can basically choose to hit at any mass he wants due to the wonky physics of the Speedforce.



If he is getting infinitetly close to light he has an infinite mass, if he exceeds light, which should be possible, his punch would have a mass, so in some sense it could be less i don't really know. In someways it should be harder as light is over infintetly close to light, but you shouldn't be able to reach light speed, it would lessen the infinite mass as you would then find out where the infinite reaches it finite point.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

Yeah, but with the Speedforce, as long as he has enough speed, he can basically pick and choose which physical laws to obey. This is why he doesn't cause sonic booms or massive destruction unless he wants to. So he can be going faster than light and still hit with finite energy.


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## Gunners (Jul 25, 2006)

> Yeah, but with the Speedforce, as long as he has enough speed, he can basically pick and choose which physical laws to obey. This is why he doesn't cause sonic booms or massive destruction unless he wants to. So he can be going faster than light and still hit with finite energy.



No, you would have to show me a picture of that, if you are flying at a certain speed you are going to hit someone at that force, Infinite mass punch is not actually an infinite mass punch though as we know it is less than a punch going at light speed, it just gets infinetly close to that force.

Like 0/9 recurring can be less than 1 i think, anyway i don't wish to follow up on this line.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 25, 2006)

That's the definition of how the Speedforce works.

An IMP can be delivered at anywhere from near - lightspeed to significantly above lightspeed.


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## SoulTaker (Jul 25, 2006)

IMP=white dwarf star

Gunners,the speedforce is a deus ex machina to explain how Flash does not adhere to the laws of physics,so it gives the writer the ability to pick and choose what crazy shit the Flash can pull.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> KE = 1/2mv^2


 This is the newtonian version doesn't work for this.


^ Relativistic form.

To save you guys trouble, that means that the kinetic energy to go light speed is much more than twice the KE to go 1/2 the speed of light.

In fact, it's infinitely more.

I know that Flash going light speed is used to imply that he can do an infinite mass punch, but the problem is that it _takes _an infinite amount of energy, which Flash doesn't have.

Taken an entire planet, which is more than 10 time flash size, going at 1/10 c is going to give him enough energy to go the speed of light.

Now, I aknowledge that he does go the speed of light and faster, but it's clearly not just raw speed.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 26, 2006)

Can you clear that post up a bit? I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove and what you are trying to disprove... o.0


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Can you clear that post up a bit? I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to prove and what you are trying to disprove... o.0



Ok.


> You do realize that the momentum of earth sized object moving that speed is incredible? It isn't simple add and subract math.


 The earth's momentum isn't _infinite_, which is needed to approach the speed of light.

The earth's momentum isn't real help.



> No, you would have to show me a picture of that, if you are flying at a certain speed you are going to hit someone at that force, Infinite mass punch is not actually an infinite mass punch though as we know it is less than a punch going at light speed, it just gets infinetly close to that force.


 Infinite mass punch requires infinite energy.

And destroys the entire universe.


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## Guy Gardner (Jul 26, 2006)

Ah! Missed that part of the argument. Sorry.

The name 'infinite mass punch' is more a misnomer, Renz. It's actually him hitting someone with 'the force of a white dwarf star' or some such embellishment. He does it when he's trying to approach light speed. Thusly no universal bang-bang. If Flash needs it, though, it'll kill just about anything as he can keep ratcheting up the mass if necessary (Since the Speedforce allows him to have the infinite energy to reach Light Speed).


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## Kuya (Jul 26, 2006)

Kid Buu wins


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 26, 2006)

Reznor, I believe the name Infinite Mass Punch does not literally mean it has infinite mass, but refers to exponetial relation between velocity and relativistic mass or rest mass (yes, I know these are outdated terms but that is obviously what the attack is referring to. It should be Kinetic Energy and not mass).

As v --> c, m0 (or KE) --> Inf.

So basically Flash is just saying that as he accelerates closer and closer to the speed of light, the Kinetic Energy of his punch exponentually grows towards infinity. Hence, Infinite Mass Punch even though it dosnt literally have Infinite Mass.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Konoha Elite said:
			
		

> Kid Buu wins



Explanation, never mind.

Anyway for the infinite mass Punch it is possible to know what it is under right? As infinite doesn't mean the no. is infinetly great that it gets infinetly close to the force above it. Hmm i can't really phrais it and i don't really know much on it.


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## OtakuPoison (Jul 26, 2006)

*wonders why everyone is forgetting about the Human Extinction Wave* 

Flash is human and thus dies with relative no problem. Also The Flash's ability to phase through molecules doesn't work on energy, say ki blast.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

1. Kid Buu never demonstrated that attack

2. Those blasts would be frozen in time from Flash's perspective. He could easily just dodge them all, and follow them back to their source and then kill Buu.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> 1. Kid Buu never demonstrated that attack
> 
> 2. Those blasts would be frozen in time from Flash's perspective. He could easily just dodge them all, and follow them back to their source and then kill Buu.
> __________________



No they wouldn't be frozen in time as they reached each area of the earth in under a second, it would possibly home in and kill him. Though i don't think Kid buu can use this move.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Flash can run around the world dozens of times in under a millisecond.

And it took several minutes for that attack to be completed.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> Flash can run around the world dozens of times in under a millisecond.
> 
> And it took several minutes for that attack to be completed.
> __________________



Can you stop lieing he on adverage he can not move around the earth a dozen times, he can move those speeds under certain conditions which are not here due to who he is fighting. The attack i think the blasts were no aimed they might have locked on eitherway are you sure it took about a minute to complete?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

IIRC it took over a minute.

And the Flash is capable of moving at those speeds easily, he just rarely has the need to.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

> IIRC it took over a minute.
> 
> And the Flash is capable of moving at those speeds easily, he just rarely has the need to.



Ok, and from what i know he isn't capable of moving over light speed unless he has certain things set up, show me him moving at a great factor faster than light speed where he has not stole speed from other speedsters, or better yet where he is in a similar postion to now.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

Beijing in 0.0003 seconds ring a bell?


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Beijing in 0.0003 seconds ring a bell?




No, explain the whole issue.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

I don't know if it's the same issue but Flash and Zoom were basically fighting across the globe and their whole fight was under one second long..

Something like each punch was a thousand miles or some crazy nonsense like that.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Ahh understand, how was he able to reach the speed?


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

He borrowed speed from some girl.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

^^^ Ok was the girl a speedster or an ordinary person?


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

Pretty sure she was a speedster, I only flicked through it..let me go read it properly.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Ok, which issues is it in?


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

Flash volume 2, issue 192-200, not sure which issue it is exaclty, that's the story arc though.


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 26, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Ok, which issues is it in?



It was Issue #200 and the girl was a speedster named Jesse Quick. However, it should be noted that Flash did not just steal her speed like he did to Bart and Jay earlier, Jesse gave Flash her "mantra" which is her speed formula. Flash is capable of getting the mantra under his own power by reciting the speed formula himself, however he is normally afraid to do it because the effects on him are weird and he could be absorbed into the speed force if hes not carefull. Thats why in the issue Jesse had to literally force Flash to take her mantra.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

He can reach that speed, he was just afraid to.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> He can reach that speed, he was just afraid to.


 Well well well.

Flash is a chicken *makes flapping motions*
How ever will Buu beat a chicken?  *makes chicken noises* A scaredy-cat? _Meow_

*continues taunting*


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## Endless Mike (Jul 26, 2006)

He was afraid for himself and for others.

In a bloodlusted fight he will not be holding back.


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## Delta Shell (Jul 26, 2006)

Yeah, I guess everyone just went to read that run because of this debate. I just finished issue 200 myself 

Yeah, Flash took quite a large boost from Jesse Quick that enabled him to reach light speed and fight Zoom for an entire second.


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## Gunners (Jul 26, 2006)

Yes but if he uses the mantra he can possibly die, i am guessing that is why he doesn't use it? So if he is bloodlusted he would hold it back if it would cause damage to himself.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> He was afraid for himself and for others.
> 
> In a bloodlusted fight he will not be holding back.


 I beat I could go the speed of light, if I really wanted to.


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## Havoc (Jul 26, 2006)

Reznor said:
			
		

> I beat I could go the speed of light, if I really wanted to.



I doubt that, but I bet you could go the speed of stupid.  Omg liek 0wn3d!!!11


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> I doubt that, but I bet you could go the speed of stupid. Omg liek 0wn3d!!!11


 Still fast enough to catch your mom. (since she's sooooo fat)


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 26, 2006)

Space Gem > Speed.


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## Reznor (Jul 26, 2006)

> Space Gem > Speed.


IT > Space Gem > Speed

because you can teleport back from the dead with it. (Movie 9)


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## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Space Gem > Speed.



Time Travel > Space Gem


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

You know, I just thought of something:

Shouldn't this be Kid Buu vs. Kid Flash?


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

^^^^ Um no, why did you think of that? From what i know Kid Flash Wally West had some cap up to Crisis on Infinite Earths i think. And i don't feel like using Bart.

Wally West vs Kid Buu.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Why did I think of that?

Because their names are similar, of course.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

^^^ Ooook.

Anyway, personally i beleive Kid buu woudl win, i don't think Flash could actually kill him, Kid buu explodes he would just reform himself, he would have to erase every one of his molecules, or beat him to a level i don't think the Flash is cabale of.

Kid Buu could potentially surround him him with Ki blasts so he has no where to run to, if Flash gets hit he would die anyway, i don't think he is all that durable.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

The Speed Force provides him with all the durability he needs to survive going at the speeds he does (if a regular human was accelerated to those speeds with no protection they would be vaporized).

Not to mention you're ignoring the Speedforce dump tactic.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> The Speed Force provides him with all the durability he needs to survive going at the speeds he does (if a regular human was accelerated to those speeds with no protection they would be vaporized).
> 
> Not to mention you're ignoring the Speedforce dump tactic.



It protects him from high speeds it doesn't protect him from shit that hurts normal humans shown when he was stabbed.

Speed dump would actually take some time, he can not reach up to light speed that fast, also if he grabs hold of buu he could easily split and reform, or absorb the Flash, so i doubt the speed dump would be that effective.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Except Buu would be a statue to him. He would be too slow to react.


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## Reznor (Jul 28, 2006)

> Except Buu would be a statue to him. He would be too slow to react.


 What will he do with that time?


> It protects him from high speeds it doesn't protect him from shit that hurts normal humans shown when he was stabbed.


 Interesting.

I know that the stab should hurt him, but it is going really slow compared to him.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> Except Buu would be a statue to him. He would be too slow to react.



No Buu wouldn't appear to be going slow, as Flash doesn't accelearate to light speed that fast, Buu might not appear as normal but he wouldn't be like a statue. Eitherway it would take more than a second to dump him to the speed froce, in Buu's time he would be able to break apart of absorb the Flash.




> Interesting.
> 
> I know that the stab should hurt him, but it is going really slow compared to him.



Yeh it was kinda weird him running into it, i guess he was running super fast so the sword went through superfast also. 

It is weird in anycase, like Bart Allen getting shot in the knee, i guess he isn't as great as the flash, but Flash is able to feel the bullet on his neck and instantly Phais through, which brings the question why not the sword. Diffrent writters i guess.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Buu is too slow to absorb him.

Even if he wasn't, the Flash is surrounded by the Speedforce forcefield, and the reason Vegeto was okay after he was absorbed was because he had a similar forcefield, so the Flash could tear Buu apart from the inside and escape.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> Buu is too slow to absorb him.
> 
> Even if he wasn't, the Flash is surrounded by the Speedforce forcefield, and the reason Vegeto was okay after he was absorbed was because he had a similar forcefield, so the Flash could tear Buu apart from the inside and escape.



The force feild wouldn't protect him from absorbsion, it protects him from things speed related like if he hits things at light speed, he wouldn't tear him from the inside as they generally shrink, he would be burnt by stomach acid.

You can not compare the speed force sheild to Vegito's sheild, completly diffrent things. Speed force sheild wouldn't protect him from damage, shown when he got stabbed, it prevents things that do damage speed related.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

It does protect him from damage, unless for some reason you don't consider running into solid objects at near - lightspeed with the mass of a star a situation  that could cause damage.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> It does protect him from damage, unless for some reason you don't consider running into solid objects at near - lightspeed with the mass of a star a situation that could cause damage.



Yeh like i said it protects him from things speed related, things out side of it will hurt him, like if grod were to punch him that would hurt, him running into a sword would also hurt him.

When he will do things related to his speed the speedforce will protect him from things like his feet burning, him hitting someone at light speed, if they put that action on him it will damage him. You know how it works well enough so enough of the lies.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Then how do you explain the fact that he's survived getting hit by people with super strength?


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> Then how do you explain the fact that he's survived getting hit by people with super strength?



When? You would have to show it too me, i know he can get hit and regenerate pretty fast, but you would have to show me a clip of him surviving some brutal attacks, because from what i know he tends to stay out Gorrila Grodds path. Also, Buu i don't see him escaping the goo, last i saw he got his feet stood on some tar, i have to read again why he couldn't escape, oh it took time to vibrate out i think, in that time the guy submerged him, Jay and Bart had to come to his rescue.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

You can't base an entire argument on only low - end showings.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> You can't base an entire argument on only low - end showings.



But i am not basing it on low endings, show me sometimes where he has survived a high level punch, i know he has ways to evade it, vibrating so they move through etc.

But come on show me times of him surviving full force punches, his strength level is that of a normal humans, i think in general people know that. The speed force protects him going at those speeds, hitting objects etc.

When death stroke stabbed him it hurt, i need to find times where he has been hit, but that will probably hurt him also, shit in wonder woman comic where he teamed with her, Huntress pretty much owned him for a while.

I am not using low showings, i am using what is put out on a constant basis.


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## aznguy28 (Jul 28, 2006)

flash can time travel using his speed, but just put a large boulder in his way and he will fall hard, so hard, that the place he falls one will have a large hole 0_o anyways, i'm going to vote for BUU because if he catches flash, he is dead >.>


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 28, 2006)

_But come on show me times of him surviving full force punches, _

Zoom, when he first fought Flash, if I'm not mistaken.

If not, then it's the second time.

And Zoom can hit HARD.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Or, you know, Flash sees the boulder, and moves out of the way.



Here.

Wonder Woman also says Zoom hits harder than Superman.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh, and more Flash scans:



Flash goes lightspeed easily.




Flash runs through space right into a black hole



Flash's body is distorted and warped by the black hole but he survives.




Flash goes faster than light.



Flash warps through time and space




Flash looks like he's done for, but wait....



He's okay!



Flash goes back in time




Flash travels from the beginning to the end of the universe in less than a second



Flash moves through space and time



Flash goes back in time to the explosion of Krypton and escapes the explosion (so even if Buu blew up the planet it wouldn't work on him)



Flash collapses after days of racing around the entire universe and all of time.



Flash gets back up and keeps racing



Flash arrives on a tiny world.



Krakkl had to cheat to beat the Flash. (Wally was keeping up with a guy who had the speed of an entire world of beings made of radio waves which travel at lightspeed).



Flash is still keeping up with him.



Wally prepares to make a bet with the aliens.



He races the alien back to Earth.



Krakkl gives the Flash his speed.



Flash goes so fast he leaves the space - time continuum.



Superman and the other Flashes prepare to lend their speed to Wally.



Flash is going, well, really really fast.



Now he's going even faster.



Faster....



Fastest.

So, in summary, Buu is toast.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

^^^ Yeh that is really great and all, good seeing the shit he has done in the past and all, but you still didn't post any scans of him surviving above human punches, he can not accellerate to light speed that easily, he metioned it along the lines anyway ( when he was fighting zoom i think) in one of his last chapters so a lot of those feats mean sqaut. Anyway, zoom hitting harder than Superman doesn't matter as he wasn't trying to kill Wally, if Wally receive damage a normal human wouldn't die from he would be cool as he would heal fast, if he received damage that would punk a human one shot, he is dead.

Time travelling, like i said it isn't going to do that much good, and from what i have seen, he can not use it felxibly. Anyway i think he needs accelleration for it right? What good would it do if he is dead? There would be no useful reason for him to actually use it in this match up, if he is loosing he runs back in time, what would it acomplish getting beat again? As buu would be fully charged again.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

He can run anywhere in space or anywhere on the ground, what do you mean he can't get acceleration?

And Zoom punches way harder than most people, he survived it. What more do you want?

And how is time travel not useful?

He could go back in time and kill Bibidi so Buu would never even be created in the first place.


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## JBarnz008 (Jul 28, 2006)

I remember an episode of Justice League unlimited where Flash Was moving at Ultra Speed when he was destroying Lex and Braniac Fused.

He was moving so fast that when he was hitting Lex with every other punch it got more powerful vaporizing Braniac.

Plus he was moving soo fast after he was done moving he was getting ripped into another dimension.

If he keeps doing that to Buu I'm so he'll Vaporize Buu, thus not letting him regenerate. So I say Flash.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

JLU Flash is much much weaker than the comics version.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> He can run anywhere in space or anywhere on the ground, what do you mean he can't get acceleration?



he can not hop from 0-lightspeed just like that ( He metioned it in his fight with zoom), and really i would need the actual comic to see how he can run in space as he is not able to fly.



> And Zoom punches way harder than most people, he survived it. What more do you want?



I told you, was zoom trying to take his life? No he wasn't so we can not say he hit him as hard as he hit Superman, he wouldn't hit him full force, he wanted him a better hero not dead.



> He could go back in time and kill Bibidi so Buu would never even be created in the first place.



Explained why this shit wouldn't work. For him to reach Babidi, which verse would he be in. DBZ verse, what does not exist in the dbz verse, the speedforce. He is in a neutral universe where neither universe exist but they have their powers in tact. No time travel right there. Lets asume he could time travel though, how exactly would he know to go, where Babidi head quaters are, it could be light years away, he would not know where to go, or as a matter of fact which time to go to. So don't throw that crap around without thinking ''How will it work out''.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 28, 2006)

I think JLU Flash would lose to Kid Buu, 7 to maybe 8 times out of 10.

There was also the time when Zoom hit Flash in the head, and the entire city block they were in was leveled, or something.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

You said that he wouldn't be able to get any acceleration at all. I never denied that he needed it, I merely proved that he could get it.

And I showed scans of him running in space, what more do you want? Attribute it to the Speedforce wackiness.

So you think Zoom was only punching him with the force of a normal human?

Do you have any proof for that?

He wasn't trying to kill Wonder Woman either but he still punched her harder than Superman.

And how do you know the Speedforce doesn't exist in the DBU?

There's no proof it doesn't, besides, in a vs. debate, it's assumed both characters' powers work as advertised.

And since Buu was causing havoc all across the universe, he probably wouldn't be too easy to find, then he finds Babidi and tracks him back through time until before Buu was created and kills him.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I think JLU Flash would lose to Kid Buu, 7 to maybe 8 times out of 10.
> 
> There was also the time when Zoom hit Flash in the head, and the entire city block they were in was leveled, or something.




I have to look at that, personally i find that odd, considering that should explode his head, and he was able to walk, yet other things like being stabbed or slashed by huntress puts him out of the game.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 28, 2006)

_And how do you know the Speedforce doesn't exist in the DBU?_

One can assume this because of

A) The Speed Force was created by DC writers, and only they can admistrate it to wherever. Consequently, the Speed Force would only exist in the DCU/DCAU/Elseworlds/Hypertime.

B)JLA/Avengers. Wally ends up in the 616 reality of the Marvel Megaverse, and discovers the Speed Force was not there. Consequently, one can assume that not every universe has the Speed Force.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

DBU is not Marvel.

The way it works is this: If we do a match for example where Star Wars ships are put into the Star Trek universe, we assume their hyperdrive works, we don't just say 'there is no hyperspace in the Star Trek universe so the Star Wars ships will be stranded'.


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## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> You said that he wouldn't be able to get any acceleration at all. I never denied that he needed it, I merely proved that he could get it.



No i know he can reach light speed, i though you were infering he can skip to that speed instantly.



> And I showed scans of him running in space, what more do you want? Attribute it to the Speedforce wackiness.



He can not fly, it was shown when he was about to die, give me the issue no. where he runs in space, i need to see the circumstance since they rigged it to be a race they could have given him means to run in space.

Regardless i want to see for my self as i don't trust you.



> So you think Zoom was only punching him with the force of a normal human?
> 
> Do you have any proof for that?



Do you have proof he was hitting him hard enough to kill a human? We know he didn't want to kill him so it is logical he gave him what he could take, Flash can take above normal humans as he heals fast, if someone were to shoot him i guess he would feel it then again i can not compare it to Bart, at the sametime he phaised so the bullet passed through him, that tells me that if it hit him he would get hurt.



> He wasn't trying to kill Wonder Woman either but he still punched her harder than Superman.



And wonderwoman has a greater indurance than the Flash.



> And how do you know the Speedforce doesn't exist in the DBU?



Because Akira didn't include it in DBZ, that is why, Speedforce won't exist in dbz unless Akira states it.



> There's no proof it doesn't, besides, in a vs. debate, it's assumed both characters' powers work as advertised.



That is why they are put in a neutral verse, where both there powers work, since they are in a neutral verse they are seperated from their time, if Flash fought in dbz verse, no speedforce which would equal no speed.



> And since Buu was causing havoc all across the universe, he probably wouldn't be too easy to find, then he finds Babidi and tracks him back through time until before Buu was created and kills him.



Huh, this is bull shit, if he was creating Havoc he would actually exist meaning he too would then fight the Flash, anyway, it would actually take Flash years to reach anyway, considering the place is light years away, he could even die before reaching there of age, in anycase he wouldn't know where he's heading.

_______-



> DBU is not Marvel.
> 
> The way it works is this: If we do a match for example where Star Wars ships are put into the Star Trek universe, we assume their hyperdrive works, we don't just say 'there is no hyperspace in the Star Trek universe so the Star Wars ships will be stranded'.



No that is stupid, fights take place in a neutral verse, to me that is not how the battledome works out. You place people in a neutral verse, if they are put in someone elses words they risk not being able to use their powers.

If Flash was in the dbz universe, there would be no speedforce there, to make it exist we place them in a neutral verse.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

You said he wouldn't be able to get acceleration.

It's hard to believe that you're denying what is in front of your very eyes.
I found the scans in a respect thread, I don't know the exact issue number.

You're just being ignorant now.

Why would Zoom hit him with only the force of a normal human punch?

At the speed he was going, it would take way more KE than that to even slow him down.

Flash with the forcefield has great endurance, I posted proof, you're just denying it.

And I suppose the strong nuclear force also doesn't exist in the DBU because it was never stated too? That's not proof.

No, if Flash fought in the DBZ verse in a vs. match, he would get access to the Speedforce, same as when he is put in a vs. match that takes place in the MU.

Did you notice my scans where he travelled all around the entire universe in a matter of days?

And the thing is, he finds him, goes back in time, kills him, and then in that timeline he doesn't exist.


----------



## Samurai Man (Jul 28, 2006)

kid buu would win


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Samurai11 said:
			
		

> kid buu would win



Reasoning? Logic? Evidence?

Anything?


----------



## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> You said he wouldn't be able to get acceleration.
> 
> It's hard to believe that you're denying what is in front of your very eyes.
> I found the scans in a respect thread, I don't know the exact issue number.
> ...



Not necessarily, races of this sort they usually give you the resources necessary.



> Why would Zoom hit him with only the force of a normal human punch?



he would hit harder than a normal human for sure, but not harder than what would kill a human instantly most likely.



> Flash with the forcefield has great endurance, I posted proof, you're just denying it.



No you didn't or i lost it in the many worthless pictures you posted.



> No, if Flash fought in the DBZ verse in a vs. match, he would get access to the Speedforce, same as when he is put in a vs. match that takes place in the MU.



The speedforce doesn't exist in the dbz verse, i took that in to account when i created this match up so i place them in a neutral verse, natural thing put them in an equal verse. Otherwise i could say put him in the dbz verse, you want him in the dbz verse so he can have a specific advantage, i place these two in a neutral verse so they are equal. I decide to take into consideration speed force not existing in the dbz verse, if you want this in the dbz verse fine speed force doesn't exist, or you can place them in a neutral verse where it does, that is how it works.



> Did you notice my scans where he travelled all around the entire universe in a matter of days?



Which would be absolute bull shit in anycase.



> And the thing is, he finds him, goes back in time, kills him, and then in that timeline he doesn't exist.



Um Buu would most likely fight back if he did bump into him, regardless that isn't the case, he would be in the dbz verse without speed force so he would probably loose. Or he would be in a neutral verse where he can not access DBZ time line.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 28, 2006)

_he would hit harder than a normal human for sure, but not harder than what would kill a human instantly most likely._

He hit Wonder Woman with enough force to send her flying across countries, like from Egypt to the Great Wall of China, to Paris, and then to the Amazon Island.

I doubt a human can survive enough force that would send you across countries like that.

And whether he hit Wally that hard?

The Flash #199.

Wally absorbed Bart and Jay's speed in the hospital after Linda suffered the sonic boom.

Zoom punches him, they end up in snowy mountains (or a place where there's lots a snow). Quite a change of land.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Another time travel strategy is that he just kills Bibidi while Buu is still sealed inside that ball.

And you're hardly the one to complain aboug giving unfair advantages, since you prohibited Flash's speed steal.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 28, 2006)

Oh, and about the one where Zoom hits Wally.

Professor Zoom, so it's not Hunter.

The Flash #224. Thawne punches Wally's skull hard enough that every window within 2 miles shatters.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 28, 2006)

> Another time travel strategy is that he just kills Bibidi while Buu is still sealed inside that ball.
> 
> And you're hardly the one to complain aboug giving unfair advantages, since you prohibited Flash's speed steal.



STFU about it, i took away speed steal and i took away planet steal to prevent the morons comming in and saying ''He would blow up the planet'' ''No flash would steal his speed'' as you know people would say that.



> Another time travel strategy is that he just kills Bibidi while Buu is still sealed inside that ball.



Listen, if he was in the dbz verse there would be no speed force plain and simple, Flash is not in the dbz verse he is in a neutral verse so he doesn't have access to Buu's past, you can place him in the dbz verse, sure he wouldn't have speed. Now quit the foolish bantering. providing he was in the dbz verse, he would have no means to get near Buu, and he wouldn't know where he is, Flash travels at light speed tops, he generally needs ground ( Don't know of that circumstance since you never explained more i don't take it for much) he wouldn't be able to reach there, considering the place is light years away.



> He hit Wonder Woman with enough force to send her flying across countries, like from Egypt to the Great Wall of China, to Paris, and then to the Amazon Island.
> 
> I doubt a human can survive enough force that would send you across countries like that.



Phraised my words wrong, i meant him punching Wally to what a normal human could somewhat survive not dieing instantly, due to Flash speed i assume he would heal a lot faster, so he can take a certain amount, but if too much it would kill him.



> Zoom punches him, they end up in snowy mountains (or a place where there's lots a snow). Quite a change of land.



For some reason i don't think it was the force of the punch more the speed Flash somewhat was travelling. Endurance is not one of his strengths, an energy ball from Buu would kill him, sameway death strokes sword could screw him up, Grodd is weaker than Buu i am pretty sure he would harm Buu if he got hold of him.



> The Flash #224. Thawne punches Wally's skull hard enough that every window within 2 miles shatters.



Wasn't it a sonic boom after, anycase, i think Physical strikes probably don't hurt him as much, seeing as they are speed related, they would be relatively slowed down for him and feel like a normal punch so in that regard he would be cool. But Buus punches are inchanced more by Ki so i that advantage goes. 

Like if i swung a punch at flash it would be moving to slow to harm him is what i mean, though Buu packs his punches with Ki, Grod is raw strength, zooms hit was speed related for the Flash it would be slowed down so in some sense it could feel like a normal hit.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 28, 2006)

Wow, look at you bending over backwards to make up ridiculous theories just to make the Flash look weak.

Do you have proof for any of this stuff?


----------



## Gunners (Jul 29, 2006)

> Wow, look at you bending over backwards to make up ridiculous theories just to make the Flash look weak.
> 
> Do you have proof for any of this stuff?



To what, i am not actually making up shit it makes perfect sense.

If someone slings a punch going at sound speed how fast would it be for the flash? So the actual force of the punch wouldn't be the same due to the way in which he moves. You really are.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 29, 2006)

So in other words, you admit that Buu's punches wouldn't hurt the Flash.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 29, 2006)

> So in other words, you admit that Buu's punches wouldn't hurt the Flash.



Nope as Buu's punching power doesn't come from speed so much, he can increase the force behind in using Ki most likely.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 29, 2006)

Let me get this straight:

You say that normal punches don't easily hurt the Flash, but punches with ki will hurt the Flash.

I ask again:

WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?

I could just as easily say that Buu is resistant to ki blasts, but he would get killed by one punch from a Speedforce user.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 29, 2006)

> Let me get this straight:
> 
> You say that normal punches don't easily hurt the Flash, but punches with ki will hurt the Flash.





> WHERE IS YOUR PROOF?



Because normal punches get their energy mainly from speed, Since for the Flash everything is slowed down, so is the punch to him and so is the force somewhat, picture someone hitting you in slow motion, wouldn't hurt that much.

Buu on the other hand the power from his punch isn't based on speed so much and is the ki inside, it would be slowed down but if it hit it would still carry a high force behind. 



> I could just as easily say that Buu is resistant to ki blasts, but he would get killed by one punch from a Speedforce user.



No you couldn't i am saying Flash is somewhat resistant due to his speed, his speed is on a next level like he moves at light speed but it is like normal walk for us everything is slowed down yada yada, therefore if the punches come in slower they would hurt the same amount as a normal punch on us.

If you don't get it, i will either skip or reply to you in the morning i need to sleep.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 29, 2006)

If you're denying a relationship between the force of Buu's punches and their KE, based on ki, you need to define exactly how ki works in this situation, and why it would act differently from kinetic energy. You also need to back this up with evidence from the canon material.

Otherwise I could just as easily say something like "DBZ characters resist punches mainly due to their ki, but Superman is powered by solar energy, not ki, so therefore his punches will kill or KO all DBZ characters in one shot".


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 29, 2006)

_Since for the Flash everything is slowed down, so is the punch to him and so is the force somewhat, picture someone hitting you in slow motion, wouldn't hurt that much._

I think that's incorrect.

What you're basically saying is that for Wally, everything becomes physically slow around him.

To elaborate, you're basically saying that person A is running normally, but with Flash, he's actually walking.

For a punch, he's punching at this speed, but to Wally, it's at a lower speed, and therfore weaker.

Regardless of how fast is Wally's perception is, it doesn't change the kinetic energy stored within the punch (unless Wally directly manipulates it), and therefore the force it can exert.

Unless I'm mis-interpreting?


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 29, 2006)

I don't get how 'ki' can suddenly replace all natural conventions in the universe. Ki is power that has to be turned into SOMETHING. All it is is energy... it's just potential energy drawn from a different source. I'm not sure how it suddenly qualifies as being completely beyond physics when it can easily be drawn into regular physics.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 29, 2006)

> I think that's incorrect.
> 
> What you're basically saying is that for Wally, everything becomes physically slow around him.
> 
> ...



Hmm the way i imagined it, the speed would be going much slower, so the overall force on him would be a great deal less, or would feel less anyway due to the speed in which he is moving, as it isn't just his eye's it is his whole body movement which ajusts to it.



> I don't get how 'ki' can suddenly replace all natural conventions in the universe. Ki is power that has to be turned into SOMETHING. All it is is energy... it's just potential energy drawn from a different source. I'm not sure how it suddenly qualifies as being completely beyond physics when it can easily be drawn into regular physics.



What i am saying, if Flash was able to withstand those punches due to them being slowed down and his body reacting faster, DBZ characters could bipass that as a great deal of the force comes from Ki rather than speed.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 29, 2006)

_Hmm the way i imagined it, the speed would be going much slower, so the overall force on him would be a great deal less, _

Not really. Despite how the Flash moves, the speed of the world around him still remains the same, provided that Flash doesn't manipulate it himself.

_or would feel less anyway due to the speed in which he is moving, as it isn't just his eye's it is his whole body movement which ajusts to it._

Interesting theory, I'll have to say. Although, an instance where Wally states this would certainly clinch it. Not saying that you're wrong. But you may actually be on to something here.

Though, there's one minor durability feat of sorts I can remember.

JLA #44, Tower or Babel arc. Thanks to Bruce's plans, a bullet that can vibrate is shot to Flash. In the same page, narration states that Wally vibrates the instant he feels the pressure of the bullet on his skin, wanting the projectile to pass through him.

However, the vibrating bullet succeeds and is lodged in his spinal column. Wally experiences epileptic seizures at lightspeed.

I got to say, experiencing something like that, a normal human would probably die. . . would being the key word.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 29, 2006)

CBG said:
			
		

> Not really. Despite how the Flash moves, the speed of the world around him still remains the same, provided that Flash doesn't manipulate it himself.



I know the world moves the same, but in his eye's everything is slowed down, if a car was moving into him i doubt it would send him flying more on the lines of push him gradually.



			
				CBG said:
			
		

> I got to say, experiencing something like that, a normal human would probably die. . . would being the key word.



What you have to remember though is the Flash can rapidily heal himself, where a human could die, his tissues and everything else would heal at a faster rate.




			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If you're denying a relationship between the force of Buu's punches and their KE, based on ki, you need to define exactly how ki works in this situation, and why it would act differently from kinetic energy. You also need to back this up with evidence from the canon material.



No, i am saying the speed isn't so relevant, if the ki sped up his punch i beleive it would hurt Flash less, but i think the ki adds more in the mass department to a punch.

Speed of the punch is the most important in the amount of force given of, but the mass somewhat counts aswell, i think in dbz they increase the mass area with ki, though if the power comes from something speed related then i doubt it would hurt the Flash, it would more likely touch him and sort of push on him but due to it being slow like it wouldn't hurt so much.

I can't really explain, if i were to punch him it would be moving super slow so the force he would receive could be less.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 30, 2006)

How can Ki add to mass but not count as kinetic energy? And again, even if the mass is increased, it takes time to increase it. Goku can't just say "ALL MY KI IN THIS ONE PUNCH!!". At least, we've never seen it like that. We've never really seen ki channeled so much to make big punches that effective. More often, we see them use their speed to blindside and then use the ki to blast someone.

So simply going by the tactics normally used by Z Warriors, I'd argue that the concept of "Ki adding to mass" would not be a regular part of their arsenal, if at all. Perhaps it's more unconscious than anything else, but I just can't see them increasing the mass of their punch at a whim.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_I know the world moves the same, but in his eye's everything is slowed down, if a car was moving into him i doubt it would send him flying more on the lines of push him gradually._

Are you not contradicting yourself?

Yes, you say (and you're right) that to the Flash, everything seems to move slowly around him (thanks to his speedy perception). However, you say that a moving car would 'push him gradually'?

Flash's speedy perception is not reality.

Are you saying that thanks to his speed perception, he can adjust himself to the physical world (example, a speeding car about to hit him)?

_What you have to remember though is the Flash can rapidily heal himself, where a human could die, his tissues and everything else would heal at a faster rate._

True, but it does say something about his pain threshold.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Oh, and more Flash scans:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No, Flash had to absorb the speed of the ENTIRE WORLD and MORE to accomplsih that. Sorry to spoil it for you.


Buu has The Kai's Instant teleportation which is used WITHOUT  pause or delay unlike Goku's.

click here
click here
click here

Buu's Instant teleportation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Speed and feats Period.

*"Buu's physical strength never drops no matter what you do to him, and he can always return to a new state."*

He can not be stopped by someone weak like the Flash. Buu then proceeds to Smack Flashes head off.

This thread is over.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 30, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> How can Ki add to mass but not count as kinetic energy? And again, even if the mass is increased, it takes time to increase it. Goku can't just say "ALL MY KI IN THIS ONE PUNCH!!". At least, we've never seen it like that. We've never really seen ki channeled so much to make big punches that effective. More often, we see them use their speed to blindside and then use the ki to blast someone.
> 
> So simply going by the tactics normally used by Z Warriors, I'd argue that the concept of "Ki adding to mass" would not be a regular part of their arsenal, if at all. Perhaps it's more unconscious than anything else, but I just can't see them increasing the mass of their punch at a whim.


That's exactly what Goku did to Recoom on Namek.He hit him with a weak elbow but did a Neji and channled his ki into Recoom for devastating effects.No one but Vegeta actually figured out what happened.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

DBZ is too unreal.... It has the strongest characters of any show ever created, they're too strong in any sense.....so kid buu.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> DBZ is too unreal.... It has the strongest characters of any show ever created, they're too strong in any sense.....so kid buu.



Ignorant much?

Why don't you actually read the scans I posted?

And Phenomen - LOL: Teleportation is NOT speed. No one in their right mind would claim that Nightcrawler could beat the Flash.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Ignorant much?
> 
> Why don't you actually read the scans I posted?
> 
> And Phenomen - LOL: Teleportation is NOT speed. No one in their right mind would claim that Nightcrawler could beat the Flash.



Your Ignorant Much! It is "Instant Teleportation" or did you miss the part where Buu instantly teleported to the Kai's world which is in another Dimension. 

Kid Buu >>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

What part of 'Teleportation is not speed' don't you understand?

Teleportation is useless against a speedster except for running away. You can't change direction or anything mid - teleport, and Buu's mind is too slow to even think about doing anything before he gets blitzed.

This is how fast the Flash thinks:





BTW: More scans of Flash running in space:




These are from Our Worlds at War, so I know the context and there were no extenuating circumstances.


----------



## Guy Gardner (Jul 30, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> That's exactly what Goku did to Recoom on Namek.He hit him with a weak elbow but did a Neji and channled his ki into Recoom for devastating effects.No one but Vegeta actually figured out what happened.



Huh? Are we thinking of the same fight here?

When Goku hit him with the elbow, Goku moved so quickly that no one could really tell how hard he had hit him. It wasn't him using ki to augment his punch, it was simply the speed at which he hit him. Speed was emphasized much more than the amount of ki in his fist, thusly it isn't an accurate comparison.

Augmenting a punch with ki would be similar to what Chouji did when he punched Jirobou, where he concentrated his chakra to make his punch hit home far harder than he normally could. I have yet to see anything similar to that in DBZ, and judging by their tactics it doesn't seem like a technique like that exists.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Oh, and here's the Flash vs. The Anti - Monitor, who is way, way, way, way, WAY tougher than every version of Buu combined.






















Here's the infamous scan of Flash getting dizzy from Zum's afterimages:



However, what Phenomen - LOL forgot to mention is that they were both moving so fast they were running around the whole world in seconds (something no DBZ character has ever achieved, Gotenks had up to 30 minutes to circle the world 5 times), and Zum was using the afterimagines in such a way as to create a 'strobe flicker', that is, a rapidly blinking white light that his afterimages were overlayed in. In DBZ terms, this just wouldn't be an afterimage, it would be a combination of an afterimage and the solar flare technique. Flash handles it better than any DBZ character ever did (considering they are always covering their eyes and running around screaming and cursing whenever it is used).



And here we see the next panel, where it is revealed that they are travelling just under the speed of light, Flash is faster than Zum, and Flash could hit him a thousand times before he could even blink (keep in mind the target of this is also moving at near - lightspeed). Funny how phenomenol "conveniently" forgot to mention all this, hmm? 



Bam.

And here's Flash vs. *Superman.*










Notice how he states he could easily steal Superman's speed and leave him frozen. Also notice how he outruns Superman's heat vision (which can reach the moon pretty much instantly and reach the earth from the sun very quickly, thus proving again that Flash is FTL)

Oh, and if all else fails, this is what Flash will do to Buu:


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> What part of 'Teleportation is not speed' don't you understand?
> 
> Teleportation is useless against a speedster except for running away. You can't change direction or anything mid - teleport, and Buu's mind is too slow to even think about doing anything before he gets blitzed.
> 
> ...



Your Chatting Garbage as usual! I did not see Buu's mind so slow to teleport ot another Dimension INSTANTLY.

Instant Teleportation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of The Flash's Speed and Feats.

Your just a Foolish Fanboy.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Oh, and here's the Flash vs. The Anti - Monitor, who is way, way, way, way, WAY tougher than every version of Buu combined.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



However Mike you are a Foolish Fanboy who argues against a fight that The Flash can not win. All the scans in the world won't help you. I guess you made this thread into a Flash Memoria.l 

'Instant Teleportation" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash speed. You obviously don't get it.

Buu's Durabilty >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The Flash 

Flash is dead Instantly.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> Your Chatting Garbage as usual! I did not see Buu's mind so slow to teleport ot another Dimension INSTANTLY.
> 
> Instant Teleportation >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> All of The Flash's Speed and Feats.
> 
> Your just a Foolish Fanboy.



Wow, irony at its finest.

You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.

Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.

Honestly, even if Buu could react fast enough to use IT in the battle, how would it help him?

Say he sees the Flash 100 meters away. He teleports right next to the Flash, but when he arrives, he's still as slow as he normally is, and the Flash easily moves out of any danger and then knocks him silly.


----------



## konflikti (Jul 30, 2006)

Instant teleport

improves your:

ability to move from distant places to another

does not improve your:

strenght
move speed
punching speed
reflexes
thinking

I don't see how that helps against any speedster.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Phenomenol said:
			
		

> However Mike you are a Foolish Fanboy who argues against a fight that The Flash can not win. All the scans in the world won't help you. I guess you made this thread into a Flash Memoria.l
> 
> 'Instant Teleportation" >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash speed. You obviously don't get it.
> 
> ...



Do you have any actual arguments that haven't been refuted a billion times already?

Here's a hint: Try actually ADDRESSING MY POINTS.

If I have to spell it out for you, I will.

- Flash is FTL. Buu is significantly STL. Buu can't hit Flash.
- Flash can run in space. Flash can grab Buu and dump him in the nearest black hole.
- Flash can defeat instant teleportation by moving and reacting faster than the teleporter can think. This was proven by his race with the cosmic gambler.
- Flash can dump Buu into the speedforce where he will be trapped forever.
- Flash can vibrate through energy and solid matter. Buu won't be able to touch him.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Obviosuly all of you fools are in denail, DID ANY OF YOU SEE THE DAMN SCAN THAT SHOWS MAJIN BUU INSTANTLY TELEPORTING TO ANOTHER DIMENSION?

Flash can not do that.

Majin Buu's instant teleportation>>>>>>>>>>>>> Speed

Any fool knows this. Mike your post is completely ignorant and Fanboyish, You are arguing Instant teleportation<<Speed. Flash is dead before he realizes this.

Damn You remind me of The Phenomenol in the Vegetto Vs. Vegetto Thread.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

You realize you just insulted yourself?

As for travelling to another dimension, yes, the Flash cannot do that.

But how will it be helpful against him, other than for running away?

Should I point out that Buu cannot move faster than light, steal an opponent's speed, vibrate through an opponent's molecules and make them explode, hit someone with the force of a white dwarf star, travel through time, trap someone in the speed force, etc.?

Just because one combatant has an ability the other does not doesn't mean the first one will win.

And you STILL haven't addressed my points. I'll make it easy for you:



> You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.
> 
> Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.
> 
> ...



RESPOND TO THESE POINTS OR CONCEDE THE DEBATE.


----------



## Phenomenol (Jul 30, 2006)

Your points are nothing but Wishful Fanboyish THINKING.

Instant teleportation >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Flash Period.

Go back to sleep.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Wow, you didn't address my points. How surprising.

In case you missed them:



> You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.
> 
> Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.
> 
> ...



And again:



> You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.
> 
> Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.
> 
> ...



And another time:



> You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.
> 
> Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.
> 
> ...



And one more for good measure:



> You don't require a fast mind to teleport to another dimension, you just have to think about it and do it. The Flash is so fast that Buu won't get past the first step.
> 
> Not to mention the Flash already proved he can do this by outracing the alien with IT by getting there faster than the alien could even think.
> 
> ...



ADDRESS THESE POINTS OR CONCEDE THE DEBATE


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> - Flash is FTL. Buu is significantly STL. Buu can't hit Flash.



Death Stroke is slower than the FLash, shit a lot of people are slower than the Flash yet they manage to hit him, cover the area with ki blasts and he can have it, shit he can leave part of his body on the ground to make his feet stick to the ground.



> Flash can run in space. Flash can grab Buu and dump him in the nearest black hole.




Didn't , metion the circumstance he ran in space so don't hail it, normally he can not fly so you have to show me the actual issue before i beleive him running in space and breathing on his on accord. anyway if he grabs Buu it takes more than one second to reach a black whole, in that time Buu would absorb his ass or blow him up.



			
				CMG said:
			
		

> He didn't actually ran in space, per-se.
> 
> I'm re-reading it right now (I have EVERY Wally West comic on my comp).
> 
> In Flash #136, he's "running on a racetrack that curves in and out of the landscape of spacetime itself".



Endless mike why are you holding out on to him running in space when you were told earlier on, he had a track provided for him, so no he couldn't run Buu into space as he is unable to move in space.




> - Flash can dump Buu into the speedforce where he will be trapped forever.



It takes time and contact, do you think Buu will just allow Flash to hold him, and accellerate to the speed necessary .



> - Flash can vibrate through energy and solid matter. Buu won't be able to touch him.



Scans of him vibrating through energy better yet Ki, i mean if he could do that why did he run from the explosions?


----------



## Dark Shadowx (Jul 30, 2006)

Neither of 'em will win, I'll say. Kid Buu won't be able to touch Flash at all, and Flash would have a very hard time killing Buu due to his regenrative powers. 

So yeah.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> ]However, what Phenomen - LOL forgot to mention is that they were both moving so fast they were running around the whole world in seconds (something no DBZ character has ever achieved, Gotenks had up to 30 minutes to circle the world 5 times), and Z


um was using the afterimagines in such a way as to create a 'strobe flicker', that is, a rapidly blinking white light that his afterimages were overlayed in. In DBZ terms, this just wouldn't be an afterimage, it would be a combination of an afterimage and the solar flare technique. Flash handles it better than any DBZ character ever did (considering they are always covering their eyes and running around screaming and cursing whenever it is used).
[/QUOTE]

What you forgot to metion is Flash reaching that speed with help, Jessie quick had to give her mantra for fLash to acheive that, so in this fight that is a feat he is unable to do.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Ignorant much?



Although I don't like DBZ very much, tell me one show that has stronger characters than DBZ. 

And as we all know, unless Flash knows how to do a super-powereed spirit bomb, and turn ssj then he can't beat buu. No matter how many times he hits him, buu will just regenerate back.

Fine Kid buu doesn't destroy the planet, just destroy the continent their on.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 30, 2006)

Mike had it right about the ignorance.

Saint Seiyaa,Slayers,Sonic,Tenchi Bastard,Dark Stalkers,Angel Sanctuary,Jojo's Bizzare Adventures,The Xeno-Verse,RahXephon,DC and Marvel Comics all have stronger characters than those from DBZ.

All of those are off the top of my head.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Although I don't like DBZ very much, tell me one show that has stronger characters than DBZ.
> 
> And as we all know, unless Flash knows how to do a super-powereed spirit bomb, and turn ssj then he can't beat buu. No matter how many times he hits him, buu will just regenerate back.
> 
> Fine Kid buu doesn't destroy the planet, just destroy the continent their on.



Did you even read the thread?

Flash has plenty of ways of defeating Buu, like dumping him into the speedforce or dropping him into a black hole.

Before Buu can even think of doing anything, he will be killed.


----------



## 7thHokage (Jul 30, 2006)

Kidbuu has instant transmission and needless to say he has enormos power, Kid Buu for the win.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

7thHokage said:
			
		

> Kidbuu has instant transmission and needless to say he has enormos power, Kid Buu for the win.



Did you even read the thread?

I already proved why IT would be useless, and all the power in the universe means nothing if you're a living statue compared to the speed of your opponent.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Yes, I am saying that.

Buu has literally no speed feats.

It was proved in the DBZ speed thread that there is no evidence that DBZ characters move anywhere near lightspeed, whereas the Flash can move many times lightspeed.

How many Flash comics have you read?

I'm betting 0.


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

speed isn't a problem for kid buu to kill flash. . warp kamehameha wave anyone?



> He can not be stopped by someone weak like the Flash. Buu then proceeds to Smack Flashes head off.


 
  if you call my spandex hero a weakling again I'll report joo for cock blocking :angery

*nah I'm just breaking Ballz Phem*


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

What is the deal with all these ignoramuses?

Do you really think Flash is just going to stand there while Buu powers up a kamehameha, then continue to stand there as he teleports in front of him and fires it?

Even from 2 feet away, from Flash's perspective, the blast would take at least minutes to reach him.

Flash is so fast he beats teleportation by moving and reacting faster than the teleporter can think. I POSTED SCANS THAT PROVED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES AND PEOPLE KEEP IGNORING THEM.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> Flash has plenty of ways of defeating Buu, like dumping him into the speedforce or dropping him into a black hole.



Can he run in space, no.

Can he reach the speed force instantly? No.

If he could run in space could he run to a black hole instantly providing he knows where one is? No.

All of those take at least more than a second, it would take buu less than a second to see Flash holding him and react to it, so none of those ideas would actually work.

Oh and i said we are using Anime Buu in which case he certainly can dodge Lightspeed attacks, first episodes of Dbz piccolloo stated how Raditz was able to dodge his special beam cannon which moved light speed.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Yes, he can run in space. OWAW proves it. Stop ignoring the evidence.

He doesn't need to reach the Speedforce instantly. He just needs to reach it eventually.

A black hole could easily be found with a little searching, he just runs off into space and leaves Buu behind until he finds one, then goes back and grabs Buu and dumps him in it.

And Buu can't react if Flash can just dodge, avoid, or vibrate through any of his attacks.

Or Flash could just build a cage out of speedforce energy to contain Buu until he reached his destination.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

You need the speed of thought to start Instant Transmission.

The technique occurs instant -- allowing you to move to another space in an instant -- but you still need to think it for it to start.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> Yes, he can run in space. OWAW proves it. Stop ignoring the evidence.



You haven't shown me valid evidence, i can't remember the picture, one. I don't know the circumstances two.



> He doesn't need to reach the Speedforce instantly. He just needs to reach it eventually.



Exactly eventually, seeing as Buu can split his body he won't actually be able to contain him, seeing that Buu could somewhat sex destruct then reform he could die.



> A black hole could easily be found with a little searching, he just runs off into space and leaves Buu behind until he finds one, then goes back and grabs Buu and dumps him in it.



Then he would leave the battle scene, funny how people say ''If Goku ITs he leaves the area'' Yet flash can run to a black hole and not , eitherway it takes time to get to a black whole, considering they were once starts, they are light years away so Flash could end up spending his life in search seeing as Stars are not all that close. If he managed to find one and get back in time, Buu is not going to sit there and allow him to take him there, as it would take a good while, no he would absorb him, or blow him up, or seperate his body and escape.



> And Buu can't react if Flash can just dodge, avoid, or vibrate through any of his attacks.



Then if he vibrates Buu is free and Flashs little plan fails, in anycase i don't think he can phaise explosions seeing as he ran from them, he can just screem at him anyway, seeing as their screems in general are quite strong, and sound vibrate i don't think he would phaise through it seeing as the sound would vibrate with his body.



> Or Flash could just build a cage out of speedforce energy to contain Buu until he reached his destination.



And then Buu can sense the ki of grass and teleport to that, IT needs a life force, Grass gives of Ki so yeh he would do that, eitherway i haven't seen him perform a speed force cage whilst he is moving at such high speeds and i doubt it could hold attacks on a greater scale of blowing up a planet.


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> What is the deal with all these ignoramuses?


 
your existance in this thread is the best evidence of Ignorance thus far, congrats....



> Do you really think Flash is just going to stand there while Buu powers up a kamehameha, then continue to stand there as he teleports in front of him and fires it?


since flash cant fly nore Power up his Speed barrier in an instant. . .yah that's basiclly what I expect, speed is nice but this is still a Planet killing freak show with a Health factor long arms & warp speed. . .



> Even from 2 feet away, from Flash's perspective, the blast would take at least minutes to reach him.


 
call me when you realise that the Power levels Between Flash & buu is still a Heavyness for flash in this fight, kinetic copying or not...




> Flash is so fast he beats teleportation by moving and reacting faster than the teleporter can think.


 
funny, I always thought the speed of light was easy to spam once you learn how to Travel from Dimension-A to Dimension-B. . .OMFG buu did that in the manga & anime :shock



> I POSTED SCANS THAT PROVED THIS MULTIPLE TIMES AND PEOPLE KEEP IGNORING THEM.


 

cuz you keep ignoring that Buu's a 2-punch from buu could seriouslly fuck up Flash, it's still speed Vs Power & buu has PLENTY of both to kill flash. I dont need to read the thread if I know Both sides.

 you got too choices Mike:

  1.Grow up
  2.stay out of debate

I'm not picky just make a choice so I can eat some fucking ramen already...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> You haven't shown me valid evidence, i can't remember the picture, one. I don't know the circumstances two.



Images:




Circumstances: He was fighting Imperiex Probes that were attacking Earth.



> Exactly eventually, seeing as Buu can split his body he won't actually be able to contain him, seeing that Buu could somewhat sex destruct then reform he could die.



Sex destruct? 

Anyway Flash is fast enough to pick up all the pieces and there's the Speedforce cage.


> Then he would leave the battle scene, funny how people say ''If Goku ITs he leaves the area'' Yet flash can run to a black hole and not , eitherway it takes time to get to a black whole, considering they were once starts, they are light years away so Flash could end up spending his life in search seeing as Stars are not all that close. If he managed to find one and get back in time, Buu is not going to sit there and allow him to take him there, as it would take a good while, no he would absorb him, or blow him up, or seperate his body and escape.



Flash covered the entire universe in a few days in that race, that not only proves his speed, but he probably remembers the locations of a black hole or two.

Oh, and Speed force cage.



> Then if he vibrates Buu is free and Flashs little plan fails, in anycase i don't think he can phaise explosions seeing as he ran from them, he can just screem at him anyway, seeing as their screems in general are quite strong, and sound vibrate i don't think he would phaise through it seeing as the sound would vibrate with his body.



Proof Buu can analyze the frequency of a vibrating object and modulate his scream to match it?

Besides, you're overestimating Buu's perception here. He won't even realize what's going on, he'll be all like "WTF!?" as a glowing red - and - yellow blur is rushing all around him.



> And then Buu can sense the ki of grass and teleport to that, IT needs a life force, Grass gives of Ki so yeh he would do that, eitherway i haven't seen him perform a speed force cage whilst he is moving at such high speeds and i doubt it could hold attacks on a greater scale of blowing up a planet.



LOL, worst argument ever.

You can't sense the ki of grass! Buu couldn't even sense Goku and Vegeta, both in SSJ2 form, from a different planet in the same dimension, until they powered up.

And he creates the cage beforehand then drags him there.

In addition, the tactics you're attributing to Buu assume he's a lot smarter than he actually is. Face it, guy wasn't too bright, he would have no idea what was going on and then get WTFPWNED.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_anycase i don't think he can phaise explosions seeing as he ran from them_

I could probably provide an explanation for that.

We all know that the Flashes and any speedsters can vibrate their molecules through solid objects. In a JLA comic, Wally would vibrate the instant he feels pressure (such as a bullet) on his skin (in the JLA: Tower of Babel arc).

In Wally's case, there was a time that whenever he vibrates through something, the object or medium he vibrates through explodes. He (or Jay, I can't remember) later explained it that when Wally vibrates through something, he imparts so much kinetic energy on the object/medium he vibrates through such that it explodes.

It was a reason why Wally didn't vibrate through a good portion of the later Flash comics. Example: in the Walter West arc, Wally was tied up in Kadabra's robes. Although he could vibrate through it, he'd level the city block they were in from the resulting explosion alone, something which Wally wouldn't do and Kadabra knew.

In Identity Crisis, I'm not sure whether his vibrations were still destructive. So, it could e an explanation as to why he didn't vibrate through the sword like he use to.

And on a different note, ever since Brad Meltzer wrote him, Deathstroke is now like Batman on steroids.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

enma said:
			
		

> your existance in this thread is the best evidence of Ignorance thus far, congrats....



The difference between me and you is that I actually back up my statements with evidence.



> since flash cant fly nore Power up his Speed barrier in an instant. . .yah that's basiclly what I expect, speed is nice but this is still a Planet killing freak show with a Health factor long arms & warp speed. . .



Flash would be all over him before he even left the ground. You have NO IDEA how fast the Flash is. Not to mention he could suck him back to earth with a cyclone. 



> call me when you realise that the Power levels Between Flash & buu is still a Heavyness for flash in this fight, kinetic copying or not...



Sorry, I couldn't make that out due to the horrible grammar.



> funny, I always thought the speed of light was easy to spam once you learn how to Travel from Dimension-A to Dimension-B. . .OMFG buu did that in the manga & anime :shock


 
Then you think wrong.

Dimensional travel has nothing to do with speed, unless you want to argue that the cast from _Sliders_ move faster than light.

IT is teleportation, not speed. He has to think to activate it. Flash won't give him that chance.



> cuz you keep ignoring that Buu's a 2-punch from buu could seriouslly fuck up Flash, it's still speed Vs Power & buu has PLENTY of both to kill flash. I dont need to read the thread if I know Both sides.



Buu's punches are moving at a comparative snail's pace to Flash. He would never be hit. Not to mention he's been hit with punches that propelled him halfway around the world, which is more physical force than any DBZ character has ever demonstrated. It's obvious you DON'T know both sides.



> you got too choices Mike:
> 
> 1.Grow up
> 2.stay out of debate
> ...



No, you should leave the debating to the people who actually know what they're talking about. Buu has no chance. He dies. Fight over.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_Rules, Flash can not steal speed the sameway_

Alrighty. That leaves Wally with his

-super-speed
-destructive vibration
-wind vortexes ala super-speed

_buu is not aloud to blow up the planet._

Does that translate as a ki restriction or a planet that can withstand the planet destroyer?

_For this fight aswell use Kid Buu at his strongest like anime version,_

Alrighty.

_Flash is at his normal strength what we see in and out, not some crazy one of shit._

So. . . does that translate to Flash just being at average? Like, even though he needs to take the fight more seriously, he still remains his average self and seriousness?


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> The difference between me and you is that I actually back up my statements with evidence.


 
 the anime's been out forever now, go bite on shonen jumps ass.



> Flash would be all over him before he even left the ground. You have NO IDEA how fast the Flash is. Not to mention he could suck him back to earth with a cyclone.


 
  if buu can think it I geuss he could do it. . .Instant Transmission is still the plot hole here. . .or Blow yourself up know you have a 
Regeneration factor. . .



> Sorry, I couldn't make that out due to the horrible grammar.


 
  well that's why were here to learn!
 I'll say it again for your sake as well as mine:


*BUU IS STIIL STRONGER THEN FLASH.PERIOD*
 there Problem solved



> Then you think wrong.
> 
> Dimensional travel has nothing to do with speed, unless you want to argue that the cast from _Sliders_ move faster than light.


 
 I could Have sworn when I was watching that DBZ movie Buu Punhed goku into another Dimension. . .ah well,can't be helped if you didn't see it.



> Buu's punches are moving at a comparative snail's pace to Flash. He would never be hit. Not to mention he's been hit with punches that propelled him halfway around the world, which is more physical force than any DBZ character has ever demonstrated. It's obvious you DON'T know both sides.


 
. . . .
yah. . .I'm sure about that. . . you rock(in some strange & twisted way)



> No, you should leave the debating to the people who actually know what they're talking about. Buu has no chance. He dies. Fight over.


 
 . . . *reads thread* . . . wow. . .big talker. . .had no Idea you'd bich this long, fine if it makes you feel anybetter flash wins.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_well that's why were here to learn!
I'll say it again for your sake as well as mine:


BUU IS STIIL STRONGER THEN FLASH.PERIOD
there Problem solved_

I wouldn't exactly say that, per-se.

It all depends on the resources you have at hand, and how you can apply them in battle.

Example, a DBZ warrior against a powerful telepath (a psi of the first order, in this case).

_I could Have sworn when I was watching that DBZ movie Buu Punhed goku into another Dimension. . .ah well,can't be helped if you didn't see it._

DBZ movie?

A) Buu was never in a DBZ movie, from what I remember
B) movies are non-canon
C) that was Metal Cooler against Goku, in the sequence where IT was being illustrated (moving in-between dimensions)

_. . . *reads thread* . . . wow. . .big talker. . .had no Idea you'd bich this long, fine if it makes you feel anybetter flash wins. _

If all you're going to do is comment like that, then I suggest you refrain from posting. We have posters we may dislike in varying degrees, but it doesn't give us the excuse to flame them or make biting comments.

If you're going to post in here, post in relevance to the topic, sans flames and biting comments. And that should really go for everyone here, too.

But, I'm only a poster myself, so who'll listen. . .


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

enma said:
			
		

> the anime's been out forever now, go bite on shonen jumps ass.



I've seen all of DBZ and read most of it, thank you.



> if buu can think it I geuss he could do it. . .Instant Transmission is still the plot hole here. . .or Blow yourself up know you have a
> Regeneration factor. . .




That's what the Speedforce dump and other strategies are for.



> well that's why were here to learn!
> I'll say it again for your sake as well as mine:
> 
> 
> ...



Stronger how? Physically? Flash can punch with the force of a white dwarf star.

I can only assume you're talking about energy projection, which is irrelevant since that's not even part of Flash's powerset.

You might as well say Spider-man will beat Superman because Spider-man can shoot webs and Superman can't.



> I could Have sworn when I was watching that DBZ movie Buu Punhed goku into another Dimension. . .ah well,can't be helped if you didn't see it.


 
How am I supposed to see something that only happened in your head? Because no such thing ever happened in the anime or manga.



> . . . .
> yah. . .I'm sure about that. . . you rock(in some strange & twisted way)



Since this doesn't resemble an actual argument in any way, shape, or form, I assume you just conceded this point.



> . . . *reads thread* . . . wow. . .big talker. . .had no Idea you'd bich this long, fine if it makes you feel anybetter flash wins.



Fine.

Listen, I'm sorry for getting all worked up, but it's more than a little annoying when I've been making my case and presenting my arguments for over a dozen pages and suddenly a bunch of new people come in and start using arguments that I already addressed over and over again earlier in the thread.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_Fine.

Listen, I'm sorry for getting all worked up, but it's more than a little annoying when I've been making my case and presenting my arguments for over a dozen pages and suddenly a bunch of new people come in and start using arguments that I already addressed over and over again earlier in the thread._

I can understand that. Of all people, I'd know the feeling and the urge.

Case in point, my debut in the Vegito vs. Vegito thread. Me and Phenomenol debated for over 70 pages worth.

And now, there's the Superman vibrating his molecules thing.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Glad someone understands.


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> Fine.
> 
> Listen, I'm sorry for getting all worked up, but it's more than a little annoying when I've been making my case and presenting my arguments for over a dozen pages and suddenly a bunch of new people come in and start using arguments that I already addressed over and over again earlier in the thread.


 
  *reads & drops ramen*

uhh. . .Okay then. . .sorry for Ignoring you evidence? 

 I'm new to making 
Apologies, so if this sounds sorta shifty for me to say then I understand. I have eatting Problems & get bitchy...not an excuse though so I geuss no Harm done. . .I think? 



> If all you're going to do is comment like that, then I suggest you refrain from posting. We have posters we may dislike in varying degrees, but it doesn't give us the excuse to flame them or make biting comments.


 
  hey I just threw around the anime. . .I could Youtube if that still makes a differnece....


> DBZ movie?
> 
> A) Buu was never in a DBZ movie, from what I remember
> B) movies are non-canon
> C) that was Metal Cooler against Goku, in the sequence where IT was being illustrated (moving in-between dimensions)



  nah not the cooler one(even though that was an awsome movie)

 I was thinking about the japanesse Version where some how hell is Opened & all the former DBZ badass pop up & try to stop a hole in goku's chest...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_hey I just threw around the anime. . .I could Youtube if that still makes a differnece...._

YouTube would help, since we're dealing with anime Kid Buu here.

_I was thinking about the japanesse Version where some how hell is Opened & all the former DBZ badass pop up & try to stop a hole in goku's chest..._

Hell opened?

You mean Janemba? The Rebirth of Fusion?


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> Hell opened?
> 
> You mean Janemba? The Rebirth of Fusion?


 
Nay, I speak of the series with the rebirth of super 17, when both Past & future androids. . . Gah I think it's somewhere in my collection. . .I hope I didn't throw it out, it's wonderful...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_Nay, I speak of the series with the rebirth of super 17, when both Past & future androids. . . Gah I think it's somewhere in my collection. . .I hope I didn't throw it out, it's wonderful..._

We're talking about Kid Buu from the DBZ anime, not his incarnation as Uub.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Not to mention GT is non - canon.


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> We're talking about Kid Buu from the DBZ anime, not his incarnation as Uub.


 
  screw it, I can't find the damned movie. . .

however I did tube some things on Kid buu, be sure to check out the ones with the word "saga" first...


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Saint Seiyaa,Slayers,Sonic,Tenchi Bastard,Dark Stalkers,Angel Sanctuary,Jojo's Bizzare Adventures,The Xeno-Verse,RahXephon,DC and Marvel Comics all have stronger characters than those from DBZ.



I would love to debate against you on how they'll be able to take on dbz characters. First off, who and how do you think a character will take on SSJ goku.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> I would love to debate against you on how they'll be able to take on dbz characters. First off, who and how do you think a character will take on SSJ goku.



Saint Seiya - Blitzes him with massively superior speed, seals all his senses, traps him in another dimension, attacks him with the power to destroy galaxies, shuts down his brain, blasts him with the power of the Big Bang, etc.

Slayers - Giga slaves him, erases him from existence, etc.

Sonic - Destroys the universe he's in.

Tenchi - Hits him with the Light Hawk Wings, which reduce all enemy attacks and defense to 0 and completely destroy the essence of any enemy.

Bastard - Turns him in to a frog with no powers, seals him forever in a dimension worse than Hell, tears the dimensional fabric around him to rip him into molecules, etc.

DarkStalkers - Don't know much about them

Angel Sanctuary - See above

Jojo's Bizarre Adventure - See above

Xeno - Verse - See above

DC and Marvel - Transmutes him into half antimatter, sucks him into a black hole, drains all of his energy, blitzes him with millions of times lightspeed attacks, beats him down with pure physical strength, telepathically shuts down his mind, destroys the universe he's in, traps him in any one of dozens of hellish dimensions forever, steals his soul, erases him from existence, etc.


----------



## Azure-kun (Jul 30, 2006)

> DarkStalkers - Don't know much about them


 
 felicia the cat seals Goku under a deep sleep with he "stench" then takes the Oppertunity to call her friends to trap goku in a world of Horney nekogirls slowly killing Goku by metal climax. . .i don't mind dieing this way just so all of you Know.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> Images:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ahh ok, it doesn't mean he can fly though, he can run in space which in somewyas could be possible seeing as there is no gravity and all, on the earth he was shown to be falling to his death, so him getting into space would prove difficulty.



> Anyway Flash is fast enough to pick up all the pieces and there's the Speedforce cage.



Here is a tip if he self destrucs Flash will get hit, he would die. Second he would not know where all the pieces are at some would be out of site he would not know how many actually split out, providing he is a live, explain the speed cage.



> Flash covered the entire universe in a few days in that race, that not only proves his speed, but he probably remembers the locations of a black hole or two.
> 
> Oh, and Speed force cage.



Um his dimension knowledge has no affect here as they are in a diffrent dimension with diffrent layouts, him going the whole universe in a few days is PIS or retardism at it's max, even if he were to move faster than light, the speed he would have moved would be off the chart which he is not actually capable of reaching, eitherway show me the issue so i can see how much the whole universe actually is.



> Proof Buu can analyze the frequency of a vibrating object and modulate his scream to match it?
> 
> Besides, you're overestimating Buu's perception here. He won't even realize what's going on, he'll be all like "WTF!?" as a glowing red - and - yellow blur is rushing all around him.



He can actually scream if he does that and it hits Flash since it is vibration it would possibly hit him, you say Buu might not think this way, but a lot of what you state Flash probably wouldn't think either. In anycase if he saw a glowing light i guess he would possibly send loads of ki blast which home in on him trapping him from every angle that would hit him.



> You can't sense the ki of grass! Buu couldn't even sense Goku and Vegeta, both in SSJ2 form, from a different planet in the same dimension, until they powered up.



Um they were actually really far away, if he is being taken into space all he has to do is lock on to the ki given of by the planet, the reason Goku never did it is he was trying to find a specific person or place.



> In addition, the tactics you're attributing to Buu assume he's a lot smarter than he actually is. Face it, guy wasn't too bright, he would have no idea what was going on and then get WTFPWNED.



He has killing instinc he would most likely find away to kill Flash given time seeing as he lives to kill. A way he could do it, send loads of Ki blast which would home in on every angle so no matter how fast he moves there is no where to run, that would work.



> Does that translate as a ki restriction or a planet that can withstand the planet destroyer?



The planet is indistructable.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Ahh ok, it doesn't mean he can fly though, he can run in space which in somewyas could be possible seeing as there is no gravity and all, on the earth he was shown to be falling to his death, so him getting into space would prove difficulty.



He can easily achieve escape velocity if he gets enough momentum.



> Here is a tip if he self destrucs Flash will get hit, he would die. Second he would not know where all the pieces are at some would be out of site he would not know how many actually split out, providing he is a live, explain the speed cage.



No, if he self - destructs, Flash can outrun the explosion. And Flash could easily track and gather all the pieces, remember, his brain works at superspeed.

As for the Speed Force cage:




And if you think it's not strong enough to hold Buu, keep in mind it held Cobalt Blue, who can steal power from anything and disintegrate things at a molecular level.



> Um his dimension knowledge has no affect here as they are in a diffrent dimension with diffrent layouts, him going the whole universe in a few days is PIS or retardism at it's max, even if he were to move faster than light, the speed he would have moved would be off the chart which he is not actually capable of reaching, eitherway show me the issue so i can see how much the whole universe actually is.



It happened, you can't just ignore it. The scans are earlier on this thread. Someone made a zip file of them.



> He can actually scream if he does that and it hits Flash since it is vibration it would possibly hit him, you say Buu might not think this way, but a lot of what you state Flash probably wouldn't think either. In anycase if he saw a glowing light i guess he would possibly send loads of ki blast which home in on him trapping him from every angle that would hit him.



There's less than a one - in - a - million chance it would be on the right frequency, and Flash can easily outrun any ki blasts fired at him.



> Um they were actually really far away, if he is being taken into space all he has to do is lock on to the ki given of by the planet, the reason Goku never did it is he was trying to find a specific person or place.



By the time he even realized what was happening, he would be too far away. Not to mention if he tried to attack the Flash first like you suggested earlier, he would lose even more time and distance.



> He has killing instinc he would most likely find away to kill Flash given time seeing as he lives to kill. A way he could do it, send loads of Ki blast which would home in on every angle so no matter how fast he moves there is no where to run, that would work.



No it wouldn't, because they would move too slow to track him. Besides, Flash could interrupt that plan by vibrating through Buu's hands to explode them so he can't fire anything.

Oh, and BTW, here's another scan: Proof the Flash is faster than thought.







The planet is indistructable.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> He can easily achieve escape velocity if he gets enough momentum.



Which takes time, and well characters in the battledome, well you know fight back.



> No, if he self - destructs, Flash can outrun the explosion. And Flash could easily track and gather all the pieces, remember, his brain works at superspeed.



Hmm i don't really think he would out run the explosion for the simple fact of him not moving lightspeed instantly and the possibility of Buu's explosion travelling near light speed having a high radius. If he gathers Buu's pieces which i doubt he woudl get absorbed.



> And if you think it's not strong enough to hold Buu, keep in mind it held Cobalt Blue, who can steal power from anything and disintegrate things at a molecular level.



Since flash is on the outside would it not be logical for Buu to just teleport out of it? Eitherway you  haven't actually shown me an image of him moving with it, eitherway it doesn't matter as Buu has IT.



> It happened, you can't just ignore it. The scans are earlier on this thread. Someone made a zip file of them.



What ever i don't care maybe he can move that distance in space, personally i think it is PIS, seeing as if he was able to move at that speed freely he would have had no trouble with Zoom, when he was all out on Zoom the speed he travelled it would still take him more than a life time to travel the whole universe, Zoom fight is somewhat recent and he was fighting for something going all out. So i don't actually think he is fast enough to travel the whole universe.

Even so what good would it do him if he dumps Buu in a black whole, you don't reach the the hole straigth away, you get sucked in for a while so he could IT before he disapears, that is assuming Flash actually finds one in this dimension, and asuming he can hold Buu long enough to reach there, it would take him a minimum of 1 month to reach there providing he travels the speed he did against Zoom.



> There's less than a one - in - a - million chance it would be on the right frequency, and Flash can easily outrun any ki blasts fired at him.



He is a question i can out run a rock easily, but they are comming at me from every angle on the 3rd dimension, how exactly am i going to run from it praytell, you will get hit.



> By the time he even realized what was happening, he would be too far away. Not to mention if he tried to attack the Flash first like you suggested earlier, he would lose even more time and distance.



No he wouldn't he would realise in under a second as Dbz characters have fast reaction time, so the planet would still be in sensing distance, he could break apart and go back to the planet.

Regardless why are we argueing this, when i beleive battledome rules is you are not a loud to leave the battle feid, yup you are not, always shown when people say Goku would blow up the planet and IT, you are no a loud to leave the battle area, don't change the rules for your advantage, though you gain none.



> Oh, and BTW, here's another scan: Proof the Flash is faster than thought.



I wasn't disputing that, though you assume DBZ characters think at normal human rate?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Which takes time, and well characters in the battledome, well you know fight back.



How is Buu going to fight back when Wally is zipping around the world multiple times in under a second to build up speed? He won't be able to hit him.



> Hmm i don't really think he would out run the explosion for the simple fact of him not moving lightspeed instantly and the possibility of Buu's explosion travelling near light speed having a high radius. If he gathers Buu's pieces which i doubt he woudl get absorbed.



You're ignoring canon evidence here. The self - destruction of Buu as shown created an explosion that propagated at nowhere near lightspeed. Furthermore, it takes at least several seconds for Buu to absorb a person, and he must be consciously directing the movement of that particular part of him. Kind of hard when the guy he's trying to absorb is moving at c+ speeds and Buu is currently in a million pieces.



> Since flash is on the outside would it not be logical for Buu to just teleport out of it? Eitherway you haven't actually shown me an image of him moving with it, eitherway it doesn't matter as Buu has IT.



There's no guarantee it would work through the exoctic speedforce energies, not to mention he needs to lock onto a ki signal, which will be a bit difficult when he's hundreds of light - years from Earth and being moved at FTL speeds so his reference frame to the rest of the universe is constantly changing. It would be like trying to jump out of a moving train.



> What ever i don't care maybe he can move that distance in space, personally i think it is PIS, seeing as if he was able to move at that speed freely he would have had no trouble with Zoom, when he was all out on Zoom the speed he travelled it would still take him more than a life time to travel the whole universe, Zoom fight is somewhat recent and he was fighting for something going all out. So i don't actually think he is fast enough to travel the whole universe.



He is that fast. Zoom is just faster.



> Even so what good would it do him if he dumps Buu in a black whole, you don't reach the the hole straigth away, you get sucked in for a while so he could IT before he disapears, that is assuming Flash actually finds one in this dimension, and asuming he can hold Buu long enough to reach there, it would take him a minimum of 1 month to reach there providing he travels the speed he did against Zoom.



Was it stated exactly what speed he traveled against Zoom? Because I don't remember. Anyway, seeing as Flash can go FTL, he could move Buu right up next to the event horizon and throw him in, then leave before he got caught himself.



> He is a question i can out run a rock easily, but they are comming at me from every angle on the 3rd dimension, how exactly am i going to run from it praytell, you will get hit.



He wouldn't let himself get surrounded in the first place.



> No he wouldn't he would realise in under a second as Dbz characters have fast reaction time, so the planet would still be in sensing distance, he could break apart and go back to the planet.



He would definitely realize SOMETHING was happening, but he probably wouldn't know what, especially if he was trapped inside the Speedforce cage. By the time he figured it out (again, he's not the brightest guy) it would be too late.



> Regardless why are we argueing this, when i beleive battledome rules is you are not a loud to leave the battle feid, yup you are not, always shown when people say Goku would blow up the planet and IT, you are no a loud to leave the battle area, don't change the rules for your advantage, though you gain none.



Except in this case, Buu is travelling with him, so they're still on the same battlefield.



> I wasn't disputing that, though you assume DBZ characters think at normal human rate?



No, but notice Flash didn't say 'normal human thought' either.

Oh, and I just thought of another tactic he could use: Instead of grabbing Buu and taking him to a black hole, he could grab him and take him back in time to the Big Bang and leave him there where he would be disintegrated.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 30, 2006)

> How is Buu going to fight back when Wally is zipping around the world multiple times in under a second to build up speed? He won't be able to hit him.



He could change the terrain, he could fly in the air so |Flash couldn't reach him to activate his plans, if Flash goes to fast, can he not get pulled in the speedforce against his will?



> You're ignoring canon evidence here. The self - destruction of Buu as shown created an explosion that propagated at nowhere near lightspeed. Furthermore, it takes at least several seconds for Buu to absorb a person, and he must be consciously directing the movement of that particular part of him. Kind of hard when the guy he's trying to absorb is moving at c+ speeds and Buu is currently in a million pieces.



If flash grapbs him he could cover him completly, seeing as he is somewhat sticky like, Flash if grabbed he sometimes can not move, im not sure if that tar guy had special abilities though.

Anyway i'm a little bit tired so i have left the rest of the post.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> He could change the terrain, he could fly in the air so |Flash couldn't reach him to activate his plans, if Flash goes to fast, can he not get pulled in the speedforce against his will?



Simply reaching escape velocity doesn't carry that risk.

Changing the terrain: The Flash reacts at the speed he moves, remember. He'll just adjust his path or vibrate through obstacles.

Flying: The whole point of building momentum in this case is to get airborne, so Flash just grabs Buu on his way out of the atmosphere.



> If flash grapbs him he could cover him completly, seeing as he is somewhat sticky like, Flash if grabbed he sometimes can not move, im not sure if that tar guy had special abilities though.
> 
> Anyway i'm a little bit tired so i have left the rest of the post.



It would take too long, and even if he managed to cover most of him, Flash could just vibrate out of it. Not to mention the Speedforce cage plan makes this moot anyway.


----------



## Gamabunta (Jul 30, 2006)

Buu would win.

But this is like asking 

"who would win in a fight between bruce lee or rocky"

they are 2 different to be compared.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 30, 2006)

blocky4 said:
			
		

> Buu would win.
> 
> But this is like asking
> 
> ...


Hmm.... I think you'd better see some of the scans before you say something like that:
thing

I need to update it to contain the Speedforce cage scans though...


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

blocky4 said:
			
		

> Buu would win.
> 
> But this is like asking
> 
> ...



See, this is what I hate.

I'm having a detailed, point - by - point, logical debate, and then someone comes in and states a victor without any reasoning, and to top it all off, declares that the whole argument is pointless!


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Anyway Flash is fast enough to pick up all the pieces and there's the Speedforce cage.



Couldnt he just absorb him or something?



> Flash covered the entire universe in a few days in that race, that not only proves his speed, but he probably remembers the locations of a black hole or two.



Speculation?



> Oh, and Speed force cage.



Self destruct. IT? You assume Buus gonna chill while flash does shit to him. Like in a kung-fu movie, where its 4v1 and the main character fights them 1 by 1, and the other 3 stand around and look angry.
I could say- Buu ITs onto flash. then absobs him or turns him to candy. 
Game over Buu wins. 



> Besides, you're overestimating Buu's perception here. He won't even realize what's going on, he'll be all like "WTF!?" as a glowing red - and - yellow blur is rushing all around him.



Then prolly get angry and want to fuck him up.



> LOL, worst argument ever.
> 
> You can't sense the ki of grass! Buu couldn't even sense Goku and Vegeta, both in SSJ2 form, from a different planet in the same dimension, until they powered up.



Honestly, stop using anime filler. Its starting to piss me off. People believe your crap, and get the wrong idea.
Firstly- Buu has Kabito-kai's IT- you know, the one where he can transport anywhere. IE he doesnt need to sense a persons ki.
Second- Goku and Vegeta didnt power up, to attract him. Thats filler. Buu destroyed earth. then warped to the kais planet, surpising everyone there.




> And he creates the cage beforehand then drags him there.



And Buu creates a barrier? turns him into candy.



> In addition, the tactics you're attributing to Buu assume he's a lot smarter than he actually is. Face it, guy wasn't too bright, he would have no idea what was going on and then get WTFPWNED.



No hed get angry and fuck shit up.




> I've seen all of DBZ and *read most of it*, thank you.



Then stop spouting filler garbage.



> That's what the Speedforce dump and other strategies are for.



Buu can absorb and turn him to candy. Buu isnt going to sit around.



> Stronger how? Physically? Flash can punch with the force of a white dwarf star.
> 
> I can only assume you're talking about energy projection, which is irrelevant since that's not even part of Flash's powerset.
> 
> You might as well say Spider-man will beat Superman because Spider-man can shoot webs and Superman can't.



Caus you can compare webs to the power to destroy a solar system and then some (actually a shitload more)



> How am I supposed to see something that only happened in your head? Because no such thing ever happened in the anime or manga.



Youre one to talk about stuff happening in the manga.

Dude, I enjoy some of your arguments, and liked yours scans. It really pisses me off though, when you dumb dbz characters down, or state filler events as fact (making ppl think they are real). So try not to post such things, unless you know they are 100% canon. 
Otherwise, keep it up with the arguments.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Saint Seiya - Blitzes him with massively superior speed, seals all his senses, traps him in another dimension, attacks him with the power to destroy galaxies, shuts down his brain, blasts him with the power of the Big Bang, etc.



1. Not faster than instant transmission
2. You might seal all his senses, but he still has that "chi" sense
3. Traps him in another dimension then what?
4. Maybe not goku but kid buu can destroy galaxies too.... he destroyed many galaxies before coming to the one goku was in
5. I have to think about that one
6. Vegeta has the big bang as well, instant transmission again =)



			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> Slayers - Giga slaves him, erases him from existence, etc.


1. Don't know what that is
2. how will that person erase goku from existence...



			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> Sonic - Destroys the universe he's in.


-So can buu and he'll just go onto the next universe since he can breath where there's no air.



			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> Tenchi - Hits him with the Light Hawk Wings, which reduce all enemy attacks and defense to 0 and completely destroy the essence of any enemy.


LoL dude Tenchi....? reduce goku's attack and defense to 0...? sure... and besides try to catch him first =)



			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> Bastard - Turns him in to a frog with no powers, seals him forever in a dimension worse than Hell, tears the dimensional fabric around him to rip him into molecules, etc.


1. gotta think about that one
2. Then what?
3. Not goku but do that to cell and he'll just regenerate back and destroy whatever planet bastard's on...


			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> DarkStalkers - Don't know much about them
> 
> Angel Sanctuary - See above
> 
> ...



1. .....then dont list it
2. see above
3. see above
4. see above



			
				endlessmike said:
			
		

> DC and Marvel - Transmutes him into half antimatter, sucks him into a black hole, drains all of his energy, blitzes him with millions of times lightspeed attacks, beats him down with pure physical strength, telepathically shuts down his mind, destroys the universe he's in, traps him in any one of dozens of hellish dimensions forever, steals his soul, erases him from existence, etc.


1. Doesn't matter... buu and cell and can just regenerate back.
2. black hole may be tough for goku, but he always breaks out of those things... SSJ move up SSJ2 to SSJ3 remember SSJ3 gotenks made a hole in the dimension and jumped out just by yelling.... Goku can get out of it
3. A million lightspeed rockets won't hurt goku.... what will? And I've said before, goku can use Instant Transmission(will use IT for short from now on) and teleport in an INSTANT
4. Lmao, pure physical strength...... um no.
5. Probably got goku there... but not Dr Gero, Androids, and Cell. Androids are half robot so they are impervious to that and Cell can recreate cells to his brain, basically can restart his entire body over if he wants.
6,7,8. You've said those before, and that still wouldn't defeat Goku.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 30, 2006)

Go read some DC and MArvel. Actually go read the Infinity Gauntlet, that's a good display of Marvel Cosmic powers. Goku et al won't be able to do anything if they have no powers and they never existed.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Couldnt he just absorb him or something?



I already answered that to gunners.



> Speculation?



It doesn't matter since as gunners pointed out this takes place in a neutral universe.



> Self destruct. IT? You assume Buus gonna chill while flash does shit to him. Like in a kung-fu movie, where its 4v1 and the main character fights them 1 by 1, and the other 3 stand around and look angry.
> I could say- Buu ITs onto flash. then absobs him or turns him to candy.
> Game over Buu wins.



I already explained why he can't escape the cage that way. As for your tactics, they're too slow. Flash is faster than thought, he has defeated IT before by moving faster than the teleporter could think. It takes too long to absorb someone, and if he tries, Flash would just vibrate through the goo to escape, and he could easily dodge the candy beam or just outrun it.



> Then prolly get angry and want to fuck him up.



But he would be too slow to hit him.



> Honestly, stop using anime filler. Its starting to piss me off. People believe your crap, and get the wrong idea.
> Firstly- Buu has Kabito-kai's IT- you know, the one where he can transport anywhere. IE he doesnt need to sense a persons ki.
> Second- Goku and Vegeta didnt power up, to attract him. Thats filler. Buu destroyed earth. then warped to the kais planet, surpising everyone there.



Sorry, haven't read that part in the manga.

But again, refer to my point about rapid frame - of - reference change in relation to his position in the universe. Like I said, it would be like trying to jump off a moving train.



> And Buu creates a barrier? turns him into candy.



Again, he is too slow. I can post scans where the Flash reacts in attoseconds - that's 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of a second. Buu would be a statue to Flash. Flash could run around the world 100 times, read all the books in the Library of Congress, play a million games of Solitaire, all before the beam even moved an inch.



> No hed get angry and fuck shit up.



Which he wouldn't be able to do if he had no idea what was going on and was just attacking randomly.



> Then stop spouting filler garbage.



I didn't say I had read all of it.



> Buu can absorb and turn him to candy. Buu isnt going to sit around.



You don't get it. From the Flash's perspective, "sitting around" will be all Buu can do, since he is moving so slowly compared to the Flash. Buu would never hit him.



> Caus you can compare webs to the power to destroy a solar system and then some (actually a shitload more)



Way to miss the point of my analogy. BTW no canon DBZ character has ever even hinted at the ability to destroy more than a solar system in one attack.



> Youre one to talk about stuff happening in the manga.
> 
> Dude, I enjoy some of your arguments, and liked yours scans. It really pisses me off though, when you dumb dbz characters down, or state filler events as fact (making ppl think they are real). So try not to post such things, unless you know they are 100% canon.
> Otherwise, keep it up with the arguments.



As I stated, I haven't read all of the manga, but honestly, you are the one underestimating the Flash. You just don't realize how fast he is.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 30, 2006)

> Way to miss the point of my analogy. BTW no canon DBZ character has ever even hinted at the ability to destroy more than a solar system in one attack.



Actually Cell did.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_2. how will that person erase goku from existence..._

Omnipotence. PERIOD.

_-So can buu and he'll just go onto the next universe since he can breath where there's no air._

Filler.

Plus, I doubt Buu can survive something as powerful as the destruction of the entire universe.

_2. black hole may be tough for goku, but he always breaks out of those things... SSJ move up SSJ2 to SSJ3 remember SSJ3 gotenks made a hole in the dimension and jumped out just by yelling.... Goku can get out of it_

Do you even know how powerful a black hole is?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> 1. Not faster than instant transmission



IT is teleportation, not speed. It can't counter massively superior speed. Or else Goku wouldn't have gotten blitzed by Cell in the tournament.


> 2. You might seal all his senses, but he still has that "chi" sense



Which is of very limited functionality all by itself.



> 3. Traps him in another dimension then what?



Then they're stuck there forever.



> 4. Maybe not goku but kid buu can destroy galaxies too.... he destroyed many galaxies before coming to the one goku was in



Anime filler. Non - canon.




> 5. I have to think about that one



Okay.


> 6. Vegeta has the big bang as well, instant transmission again =)



No, Vegeta has an attack CALLED 'Big Bang'. The Gold Saints have the power of the ACTUAL Big Bang, i.e. the beginning of the universe.



> 1. Don't know what that is



It's an attack that summons L - sama to kill anything, and if it is interrupted, it will destroy the universe.



> 2. how will that person erase goku from existence...



By thinking about it, then it happens.



> -So can buu and he'll just go onto the next universe since he can breath where there's no air.



Buu, nor anyone else in DBZ, can even come close to destroying the universe. And how does the ability to survive in vacuum equal the ability to travel to other universes?



> LoL dude Tenchi....? reduce goku's attack and defense to 0...? sure... and besides try to catch him first =)



That's the way the attack works. And Tenchiverse characters can move and attack at hundreds of times lightspeed.



> 1. gotta think about that one



Okay.



> 2. Then what?



Then he's trapped forever.


> 3. Not goku but do that to cell and he'll just regenerate back and destroy whatever planet bastard's on...



He can only regenerate from Cells, not molecules.

And destroying whatever planet Dark Schneider is on wouldn't even slow him down.




> 1. .....then dont list it
> 2. see above
> 3. see above
> 4. see above



Yeah okay.



> 1. Doesn't matter... buu and cell and can just regenerate back.



Physics primer: When a particle of antimatter comes in contact with a particle of matter, they annihilate, releasing energy. If ever other atom of Buu or Cell's bodies are turned into antimatter, all the atoms will annihilate, and their bodies will be completely destroyed in a massive explosion.



> 2. black hole may be tough for goku, but he always breaks out of those things... SSJ move up SSJ2 to SSJ3 remember SSJ3 gotenks made a hole in the dimension and jumped out just by yelling.... Goku can get out of it



No he can't, because as soon as he gets near the event horizon, he will be ripped apart by gravitational forces into a long stream of molecules and atoms. Also, time is frozen inside a black hole so he won't be able to do anything.

You missed draining his energy.



> 3. A million lightspeed rockets won't hurt goku.... what will? And I've said before, goku can use Instant Transmission(will use IT for short from now on) and teleport in an INSTANT



Who said anything about rockets? I'm talking about guys physically punching him millions of times at lightspeed. Not to mention as you get closer to lightspeed, mass and energy increases, so it packs one hell of a wallop. And IT is useless if he can't think fast enough to use it.



> 4. Lmao, pure physical strength...... um no.



Um, YES! Goku had trouble with 40 tons. DC and Marvel have guys who can juggle planets, tow entire galaxies worth of planets, punch planets apart in one punch, rip apart stars and even neutron stars with their bare hands, etc.

Goku's physical strength is rather lacking compared to that.



> 5. Probably got goku there... but not Dr Gero, Androids, and Cell. Androids are half robot so they are impervious to that and Cell can recreate cells to his brain, basically can restart his entire body over if he wants.



So they're dealt with with one of the other methods.



> 6,7,8. You've said those before, and that still wouldn't defeat Goku.



Yes they will. Why wouldn't they?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Delta Shell said:
			
		

> Actually Cell did.



Apparently you missed the word 'more'.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Apparently you missed the word 'more'.



No actually I didn't.

If you think about it, that "hint" from Cell would "hint" at people more powerful than Cell being able to do "more".

So there's the "hint" you asked for that I "apparently" missed, when in fact I didn't.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Well the way I interpreted it was that you mean Cell hinted that he himself and not other people could destroy more than the solar system.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 30, 2006)

I would have thought the rest was kinda obvious for you really.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

I said "No one in DBZ has hinted at destroying more than the solar system".

You said Cell did.

The natural assumption is that you meant Cell said he could destroy more than the solar system.

Anyway, my view on that is that he could destroy the sun which would destroy the rest, maybe someone later could destroy all of it at once.


----------



## Delta Shell (Jul 30, 2006)

Personally I just didn't think I would have had to point out the logical step that there were people stronger than Cell in the series since you already knew that.

Anyway whatever..


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

The thing was you didn't mention any of the stronger people, so I thought you were only talking about Cell.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I already explained why he can't escape the cage that way. As for your tactics, they're too slow. Flash is faster than thought, he has defeated IT before by moving faster than the teleporter could think. It takes too long to absorb someone, and if he tries, Flash would just vibrate through the goo to escape, and he could easily dodge the candy beam or just outrun it.



Which post did you address, I want to go back and read it.



> But he would be too slow to hit him.



He can IT right onto him.



> Sorry, haven't read that part in the manga.
> 
> But again, refer to my point about rapid frame - of - reference change in relation to his position in the universe. Like I said, it would be like trying to jump off a moving train.



Then ask about its value, before posting like its law.

IT onto him? Plus Flash would prolly stop and be like where the fuck did you come from.



> Again, he is too slow. I can post scans where the Flash reacts in attoseconds - that's 1/1,000,000,000,000,000,000 of a second. Buu would be a statue to Flash. Flash could run around the world 100 times, read all the books in the Library of Congress, play a million games of Solitaire, all before the beam even moved an inch.



If hed ITd onto flash and held on. Then fired blasts through his hands.



> Which he wouldn't be able to do if he had no idea what was going on and was just attacking randomly.



And flash would have a good idea? He wouldnt just attack some random pink midget. And if he did he certainly wouldnt go all out.



> Way to miss the point of my analogy. BTW no canon DBZ character has ever even hinted at the ability to destroy more than a solar system in one attack.



Great analogy. Goku's planet destroying ki beams, are to Flash, what Spidermans webs are to Supes.



> IT is teleportation, not speed. It can't counter massively superior speed. Or else Goku wouldn't have gotten blitzed by Cell in the tournament.



It worked vs Buu.



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Apparently you missed the word 'more'.



Cells places ki into an attack- enough ki, to destroy the galaxy.
(Power Progression)
Super Perfect Cell< Gohan SSJ2 < Vegeta SSJ2 = Goku SSJ 2 < Buu who is slighty < then Goku SSJ3.

The difference between Buu and Cell is enormous.
Gohan was able to beat Cells blast with only half his ki.
Vegeta states that him and Kakkarot are stronger then Gohan vs Cell.
Buu hand whips Vegeta, and is about is slightly weaker then Goku SSJ3.
Meaning Buu has many times more ki, and can place more ki into a kamehameha (he can learn techniques by seeing them once), and therefore destroy much more then just the solar system. Savy?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Which post did you address, I want to go back and read it.



Post 231.



> He can IT right onto him.



By the time he can even think of using IT, Flash would already be somewhere else. Did you see the scans where the Flash beat that IT guy by moving faster than he could think?



> Then ask about its value, before posting like its law.
> 
> IT onto him? Plus Flash would prolly stop and be like where the fuck did you come from.



No, he would be like "Guy is close to me, time to dodge" and he does. IT is not speed, and it is no substitute for speed. It's reaction time that matters.



> If hed ITd onto flash and held on. Then fired blasts through his hands.



He would be too slow. By the time he even thought of using IT, Flash would be somewhere else. Even if it did work, Flash would just vibrate out of his grip before he could even think of attacking. Besides, from Buu's PoV, Flash would just appear as a red - and - yellow blur. He would have no idea where to IT to.

Teleportation is not speed. Teleportation is no substitute for speed.



> And flash would have a good idea? He wouldnt just attack some random pink midget. And if he did he certainly wouldnt go all out.



It's generally presumed in a vs. thread that the opponents have basic knowledge of each other and are fighting each other seriously.



> Great analogy. Goku's planet destroying ki beams, are to Flash, what Spidermans webs are to Supes.



Who's talking about Goku? Not to mention, you're missing the point. I'll spell it out for you: Just because one character has an ability that another one does not, does not mean the first one is stronger. It depends on the relative strengths of their abilities and how effective they would be against each other.



> It worked vs Buu.



Because Goku and Buu were already at similar levels of speed.



> Cells places ki into an attack- enough ki, to destroy the galaxy.



*SOLAR SYSTEM.* There's as much difference between a solar system and a galaxy as there is between a small rock and the entire earth.



> (Power Progression)
> Super Perfect Cell< Gohan SSJ2 < Vegeta SSJ2 = Goku SSJ 2 < Buu who is slighty < then Goku SSJ3.
> 
> The difference between Buu and Cell is enormous.



But this kind of reasoning is useless, since we have no idea exactly how much stronger they have gotten.



> Gohan was able to beat Cells blast with only half his ki.



Where was that stated?


> Vegeta states that him and Kakkarot are stronger then Gohan vs Cell.



But not *how much stronger.* That's the key.



> Buu hand whips Vegeta, and is about is slightly weaker then Goku SSJ3.
> Meaning Buu has many times more ki, and can place more ki into a kamehameha (he can learn techniques by seeing them once), and therefore destroy much more then just the solar system. Savy?



Not necessarily true.

First there comes the issue of whether Cell was even telling the truth about destroying the solar system.

Then comes the issue of how he would destroy it (planet - by - planet, blast the sun, or just one huge blast).

Then comes the fact that the energy requirements for these different feats are absolutely massive.

Due to the inverse - square law, for every time an explosion doubles in diameter, you need 4 times more energy to create it.

Thus the energy required to destroy an area twice the size of the solar system would be 4 times the energy required to destroy the solar system. Three times the solar system would be nine times the energy. Four times area would be 16 times energy. 5 would be 25, 6 would be 36, 7 would be 49, etc.

Extrapolating from destroying a solar system to destroying an entire galaxy based on undefined powerups is, frankly, ridiculous.


----------



## SSJKrillin (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Post 231.



Aite. I 'll give 'er a look see.



> By the time he can even think of using IT, Flash would already be somewhere else. Did you see the scans where the Flash beat that IT guy by moving faster than he could think?



Nope. Which post?



> No, he would be like "Guy is close to me, time to dodge" and he does. IT is not speed, and it is no substitute for speed. It's reaction time that matters.



Sub'd vs Buu



> He would be too slow. By the time he even thought of using IT, Flash would be somewhere else. Even if it did work, Flash would just vibrate out of his grip before he could even think of attacking. Besides, from Buu's PoV, Flash would just appear as a red - and - yellow blur. He would have no idea where to IT to.
> 
> Teleportation is not speed. Teleportation is no substitute for speed.



He'd IT onto Buu. It'd be instanteous so its not like Flash is has gone anywhere from the time Buu disappears then reappears.
Goku teleported to a moving Fat Buu without have any problems (though flash would be travelling faster).
Goku uses IT as a sub for speed in the kid buu fight.




> It's generally presumed in a vs. thread that the opponents have basic knowledge of each other and are fighting each other seriously.



So he'd know all of Buus techniques? Thats kinda bullshit.




> Who's talking about Goku? Not to mention, you're missing the point. I'll spell it out for you: Just because one character has an ability that another one does not, does not mean the first one is stronger. It depends on the relative strengths of their abilities and how effective they would be against each other.



A blast could kill Flash.
Webbing wouldnt make supes bat an eye.
I see what you are saying though.




> Because Goku and Buu were already at similar levels of speed.



He also uses it against a superior (in terms of speed) Cell. (Only once though)



> *SOLAR SYSTEM.* There's as much difference between a solar system and a galaxy as there is between a small rock and the entire earth.



Lol i always mix those. I meant SolarSystem.



> But this kind of reasoning is useless, since we have no idea exactly how much stronger they have gotten.



True, but we can make educated guesses.




> Where was that stated?



Gohan tells his Dad (whos dead) that he has less then half his ki left.




> But not *how much stronger.* That's the key.



But looking at info like:
Reg to SSJ is 10x stronger
SSJ to SSJ2 is a couple times more
Therefore, SSJ2 to SSJ3 must be *at least *2x more powerful. 
Also, 
Cell < SSJ2 Vegeta (Vegeta is more than 2 times stronger).
But SSJ2 gets murked effortlessly by Buu.
And Buu is around SSJ3 level.
So we can assume Buu is *at least* 4 times more powerful then Cells (im being generous with that low a number). I repeat. AT LEAST 4x. Most likely more. 



> Not necessarily true.
> 
> First there comes the issue of whether Cell was even telling the truth about destroying the solar system.
> 
> Then comes the issue of how he would destroy it (planet - by - planet, blast the sun, or just one huge blast).



? He stated he had the power to destroy the Solar System in that one blast. Thats not planet by planet. 
If he meant he could destroy the sun, he would have stated that.
100% he meant huge blast.




> Then comes the fact that the energy requirements for these different feats are absolutely massive.
> 
> Due to the inverse - square law, for every time an explosion doubles in diameter, you need 4 times more energy to create it.
> 
> ...



By this Buu has the power to AT LEAST destroy 2 solar systems in a single attack. Prolly more though.

I'll give your old post a look then post more later.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_Gohan tells his Dad (whos dead) that he has less then half his ki left._

Isn't that what he believed?


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

Let me end this now. As ridiculously weak this guy is, noone can kill him: Garlic Jr. No matter who can blow up the galaxy no matter who can break down his mind, Garlic Jr is immortal. DBZ > any show ever created in power.

If DBZ went against everyone in a bloody battle to the death, dbz wins. I'll have Garlic Jr as a representitive.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_Let me end this now. As ridiculously weak this guy is, noone can kill him: Garlic Jr. No matter who can blow up the galaxy no matter who can break down his mind, Garlic Jr is immortal. DBZ > any show ever created in power.

If DBZ went against everyone in a bloody battle to the death, dbz wins. I'll have Garlic Jr as a representitive._

Please.

So what if you're immortal? Doesn't mean jack if you can't even harm the opponent at all.

And if DBZ went into a bloody battle against EVERYONE? They get destroyed by characters who regards them as flies, if not dust.

_DBZ > any show ever created in power._

Star Trek > DBZ (the Q)

DC > DBZ

Marvel > DBZ


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

SSJKrillin said:
			
		

> Aite. I 'll give 'er a look see.



Okay.



> Nope. Which post?



I'll just post it again:





> Sub'd vs Buu



What?



> He'd IT onto Buu. It'd be instanteous so its not like Flash is has gone anywhere from the time Buu disappears then reappears.
> Goku teleported to a moving Fat Buu without have any problems (though flash would be travelling faster).
> Goku uses IT as a sub for speed in the kid buu fight.



Okay, let me explain this to you:

Pretend you're Buu, and you're fighting the Flash.

He's zipping at superspeed all around you, so all you see is a blur. How do you know where to teleport?

Ignoring that, you see him, and think about teleporting toward him. However, between the time it takes for you to start thinking about teleporting and the time it takes for you to actually teleport, he's already moved to a different place.

Ignoring that, You arrive right next to him, but again, all you see is a blur, and a picosecond later he's right behind you beating the crap out of you.

IT is useless in this fight.



> So he'd know all of Buus techniques? Thats kinda bullshit.



No, he'd just have a basic idea of what kind of creature Buu is and the kind of style he fights.



> A blast could kill Flash.
> Webbing wouldnt make supes bat an eye.
> I see what you are saying though.



A glacier could kill me if it moved right over me and crushed my body, does that mean I'm going to stand around in front of one and wait for it to do so?



> He also uses it against a superior (in terms of speed) Cell. (Only once though)



Which he had to spend several seconds in advance charging up his beam. If Cell wasn't encumbered by Final Fantasy Game Mechanics - itis like every other DBZ character, he would have been attacking Goku while he was charging up.



> Lol i always mix those. I meant SolarSystem.



Okay.



> True, but we can make educated guesses.



Not really, because there's very little information to go on.



> Gohan tells his Dad (whos dead) that he has less then half his ki left.



Isn't that before he got his second wind?



> But looking at info like:
> Reg to SSJ is 10x stronger



Where was this stated?



> SSJ to SSJ2 is a couple times more



'a couple' is undefined.



> Therefore, SSJ2 to SSJ3 must be *at least *2x more powerful.



Highly probable, but not certain.




> Also,
> Cell < SSJ2 Vegeta (Vegeta is more than 2 times stronger).



There are other numbers besides integers, you know. He could only be 1.5 times as strong. Or he could be 10 times as strong. There's no way to know.



> But SSJ2 gets murked effortlessly by Buu.



Not quite effortlessly. Vegeta managed to give a very good fight against Fat Buu, and held his own for a while against Kid Buu, both fights in SSJ2.



> And Buu is around SSJ3 level.



No objection here.



> So we can assume Buu is *at least* 4 times more powerful then Cells (im being generous with that low a number). I repeat. AT LEAST 4x. Most likely more.



Not necessarily. Again, there are other numbers besides integers. (Note I'm not stating that Buu is less than 4 times as strong as Cell, I'm just saying there's no way to know for sure.)



> ? He stated he had the power to destroy the Solar System in that one blast. Thats not planet by planet.
> If he meant he could destroy the sun, he would have stated that.
> 100% he meant huge blast.



No, he said he could 'destroy the entire solar system'. That doesn't give any indication of how he would do it. Destroying every planet one - by - one or destroying the sun would accomplish that aim. Not to mention that he could have been bluffing.



> By this Buu has the power to AT LEAST destroy 2 solar systems in a single attack. Prolly more though.
> 
> I'll give your old post a look then post more later.



Actually, even if we accept your figures (which are not necessarily true) it means Buu could destroy an area twice the size of the solar system. It wouldn't get anywhere near the next solar system, which is 4 light - years away. In addition, there are likely many solar systems more than twice as large as ours. The outer planets are just hard to detect with current scientific instruments. We've only found gas giants around other stars.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 30, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Let me end this now. As ridiculously weak this guy is, noone can kill him: Garlic Jr. No matter who can blow up the galaxy no matter who can break down his mind, Garlic Jr is immortal. DBZ > any show ever created in power.
> 
> If DBZ went against everyone in a bloody battle to the death, dbz wins. I'll have Garlic Jr as a representitive.



False.

Garlic Junior's wish was granted by the Dragonballs. The Dragonballs are only as powerful as their creator. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that anyone stronger than Picollo (after he absorbed Kami) could kill him.

Certainly any medium - to - high - end cosmiic could, they would just override his immortality with their own power.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> False.
> 
> Garlic Junior's wish was granted by the Dragonballs. The Dragonballs are only as powerful as their creator. Therefore, it's reasonable to assume that anyone stronger than Picollo (after he absorbed Kami) could kill him.



WTH? You obviously don't know enough about DBZ. The dragon is only as strong as Piccolo or Kami to MAKE WISHES. Garlic JR still gets his immortality, nonetheless. 

Although your point about Flash zooming around kid buu and kid buu  doesn't know where to hit him it doesn't matter. Flash being a cocky ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) just zooming all over the place thinking he can just dodge every attack before he knows it Buu completely destroys the continent they're on and boom: Flash and his $5 suit are ripped to shreds.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 30, 2006)

_WTH? You obviously don't know enough about DBZ. The dragon is only as strong as Piccolo or Kami to MAKE WISHES. Garlic JR still gets his immortality, nonetheless. _

And you don't know enough of characters and powers outside the DBZverse. With what EM said, there are characters and powers that can override Garlic Jr's immortality.

And what's the point of being immortal against characters whom you can't even damage?

DBZ is hardly the most powerful fictional universe. I can name a few dozen characters that can lay waste to the entire DBZverse.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 30, 2006)

No you can't. My first character i'll bring up (since it proves my argument in few words) is Garlic Jr. What do you mean "override his immortality"? There is no overriding it. HE's immortal. He can't die. It's as simple as it gets. No one in any anime/show universe can kill him.


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## Shiron (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> No you can't. My first character i'll bring up (since it proves my argument in few words) is Garlic Jr. What do you mean "override his immortality"? There is no overriding it. HE's immortal. He can't die. It's as simple as it gets. No one in any anime/show universe can kill him.


Yes, Garlic Jr. can die... just not due to old age. That's what immortal means; not being mortal. In other words, being immortal just means that you have an infite lifespan, nothing else.

And yes, some people can orverride it. They can alter reality to make Garlic Jr. not immortal anymore.

Not to mention that Garlic Jr. is filler anyways, so he really doesn't matter all too much.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> No you can't. My first character i'll bring up (since it proves my argument in few words) is Garlic Jr. What do you mean "override his immortality"? There is no overriding it. HE's immortal. He can't die. It's as simple as it gets. No one in any anime/show universe can kill him.



You do realize that many other fictional universes have characters just as Immortal as Garlic Jr. right? Hes not the only immortal character in all of fiction.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> No you can't. My first character i'll bring up (since it proves my argument in few words) is Garlic Jr. What do you mean "override his immortality"? There is no overriding it. HE's immortal. He can't die. It's as simple as it gets. No one in any anime/show universe can kill him.



That's called a no - limits fallacy.

Everything has a limit.

The Living Tribunal could just say "You are no longer immortal" and it would be so.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> WTH? You obviously don't know enough about DBZ. The dragon is only as strong as Piccolo or Kami to MAKE WISHES. Garlic JR still gets his immortality, nonetheless.
> 
> Although your point about Flash zooming around kid buu and kid buu  doesn't know where to hit him it doesn't matter. Flash being a cocky ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) just zooming all over the place thinking he can just dodge every attack before he knows it Buu completely destroys the continent they're on and boom: Flash and his $5 suit are ripped to shreds.



Flash wouldn't be dodging just for the hell of it, he would be thinking at superspeed and setting up a plan.

And the explosion of a continent would move way slower than the Flash. He would just outrun it to a different continent. Or run into space.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Flash wouldn't be dodging just for the hell of it, he would be thinking at superspeed and setting up a plan.
> 
> And the explosion of a continent would move way slower than the Flash. He would just outrun it to a different continent. Or run into space.



How would Flash know that Kid buu is strong enough to destroy a continent? He'd think it'll be aimed for him so he zips all around the place thinking the blast is just for him, not to mention innocent lives would be in danger.

Btw, I'd like to watch Slayers.... know any good places i can dl it from?


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_No you can't. My first character i'll bring up (since it proves my argument in few words) is Garlic Jr._

Pssh.

_What do you mean "override his immortality"?_

Simple.

There are forces, powers, and authorites that are higher than the powers and authorities that work in DBZ.

Ever heard of omnipotence? Nigh-omnipotence? Reality-warpers? Cosmic beings?

_There is no overriding it. HE's immortal. He can't die. It's as simple as it gets. No one in any anime/show universe can kill him._

Please.

Omnipotents and nigh-omnipotents simply make him mortal again. Super cosmics as well.

Reality warpers turn him into water, gas, or into an object of whatever choosing. And that's just a start.

So what if Garlic Jr. can't die still, by your argument? Simple. What good is immortality, if you can't even harm your opponent?

I can name a few dozen characters that can kill not only Garlic Jr., but the entire DBZ universe. Single-handedly.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> How would Flash know that Kid buu is strong enough to destroy a continent? He'd think it'll be aimed for him so he zips all around the place thinking the blast is just for him, not to mention innocent lives would be in danger.
> 
> Btw, I'd like to watch Slayers.... know any good places i can dl it from?



This takes place on a neutral, uninhabited planet. There are no other people there.

And both combatants get basic knowledge of each other (Flash knows Buu is a powerful, magic - based monster that can transmute people and cause massive destruction, Buu knows Flash is a guy who moves and reacts very very fast and can vibrate through solid matter, travel in time, etc.)

If the blast hit, the explosion would still propagate at a normal rate, and Flash could outrun it.

Not to mention the only reason we're even debating this is because the OP disabled Flash's speed steal, otherwise this match would be over before it even began.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_not to mention innocent lives would be in danger._

There's no innocent people in an OB battlefield.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Even Phenomenol would agree that someone like Lucifer could make Garlic Jr. mortal again if he wanted.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> I can name a few dozen characters that can kill not only Garlic Jr., but the entire DBZ universe. Single-handedly.


Go for it.



			
				 Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not to mention the only reason we're even debating this is because the OP disabled Flash's speed steal, otherwise this match would be over before it even began.



You're right, because he disabled buu not being able to blow up the planet, let alone the galaxy Flash would've been blown to bits.

Anyways, how(in your argument) can Flash kill buu?


----------



## Shiron (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Go for it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 Flash could destroy Buu long before he could use a planet-destroying ki attack. That's just how fast the Flash is. So even if planet-destroying attacks were allowed, it still wouldn't make any difference.

As for how the Flash can kill Buu? Putting him in a Speeforce cage and then dumping him in the Speeforce, a black hole, or going back in time to the Big Bang and dropping him there (or should I say then) should do the trick.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> You're right, because he disabled buu not being able to blow up the planet, let alone the galaxy Flash would've been blown to bits.
> 
> Anyways, how(in your argument) can Flash kill buu?



Buu can't destroy a galaxy.

And I posted a scan of the Flash outrunning the explosion of a planet and escaping into space.

Not to mention it takes a much shorter time for Flash to simply run up to Buu and touch him (thus stealing his speed) than for Buu to charge a ki blast, fire it at the planet, and wait for it to hit, especially considering that the Flash is so much faster than Buu.

As for killing him, I believe he could do it indirectly (like dumping him into a black hole or bringing him back in time to the Big Bang).

He could imprison him in the Speedforce which wouldn't kill him, but trap him, and win the match.


----------



## Scorpio3.14 (Jul 31, 2006)

Wait, I though Buu wasnt allowed to blow up the planet?


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## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

We're being hypothetical now.

Anyway, even if Garlic Jr.'s immortality couldn't be overriden (which obviously isn't the case), then any number of beings could just gather the dragonballs and use the dragon to wish he was mortal again. After all, it granted the wish, it can  un - grant it.

Or they could go back in time and kill him before he was made immortal.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_Go for it._

The One Above All
The Presence
Lucifer
Michael Demiurgos
anyone who wields the Infinity Gauntlet
anyone who wields the Heart of the Universe
anyone who wields a Cosmic Cube
Maker, Beyonder, Kosmos, Kubik, Shaper of Worlds
the Celestials (an entire race)
the Q (an entire race)
the 5th Dimensional Imps (the entire race)
the Endless
the Cosmological Compass (Eternity, Infinity, Oblivion, Death)
Abraxas
Galactus
Zom
any Phoenix avatar
Franklin Richards
238 Mad Jim Jaspers
616 Mad Jim Jaspers
the Living Tribunal
Infiniti
Living Tribunal M-Body
final form Onslaught
the Watchers (an entire race)
the New Sun
the Spectre
the Kindly Ones
the Scarlet Witch (Bendis)

Not even finished yet. I have an two entire tier lists, and I'm just gonig by comicdom alone.


----------



## SoulTaker (Jul 31, 2006)

Like I said on the other thread Sharingan No Yondaime keep an open mind and listen to the more informed users on the battledome.

To begin with this is a bad match up for the Flash because of the regen,but without his speed steal is a hard sell.I mean what can he do?Speed force dump doesn't seem possible,I don't know what the speed force cage is,so can someone fill me in on that?Really though,good job restricting Flash.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 31, 2006)

SoulTaker540 said:
			
		

> Like I said on the other thread Sharingan No Yondaime keep an open mind and listen to the more informed users on the battledome.
> 
> To begin with this is a bad match up for the Flash because of the regen,but without his speed steal is a hard sell.I mean what can he do?Speed force dump doesn't seem possible,I don't know what the speed force cage is,so can someone fill me in on that?Really though,good job restricting Flash.


For the Speed Force cage:
Oh how the mighty have fallen.......>_>


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Saint Seiya - Blitzes him with massively superior speed, seals all his senses, traps him in another dimension, attacks him with the power to destroy galaxies, shuts down his brain, blasts him with the power of the Big Bang, etc..


I find it amusing that you think that SS can do most of what you said.Speed wise I don't think they move faster than light.Why?I've never seen them do it with the author saying they could just a statement that they could.Kinda like how you keep saying Cell couldn't destrot a solar system when he said he could.Destroy Galaxies when the best feats they have is destroying Islands and mountains I doubt it.Power of the big bang yeah right.Beside being impossible by the defenition of where they get their powers(energy left over by the big bang) any one who used that attack would destroy the universe and kill themselves.The big bang contained ALL the energy in the universe will ever have so to have that power they would have to absorb all the power including the energy that combines molecules together and create a big crunch that ends existance.You can't take SS charaters word for it when they never even come close to using the kind of power they say their attacks have and not take Cell's word when his feat is much more believable based on feats done by weaker characters.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's called a no - limits fallacy.
> 
> Everything has a limit.
> 
> The Living Tribunal could just say "You are no longer immortal" and it would be so.


No he can't.Seeing as he has no say what so ever in DBZ he can't take away anyones power.Garlic Jr. is immortal simple as that.Neither Tenchi,TOAA,nor the Pressence can take away his immortality.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> I find it amusing that you think that SS can do most of what you said.Speed wise I don't think they move faster than light.Why?I've never seen them do it with the author saying they could just a statement that they could.Kinda like how you keep saying Cell couldn't destrot a solar system when he said he could.Destroy Galaxies when the best feats they have is destroying Islands and mountains I doubt it.Power of the big bang yeah right.Beside being impossible by the defenition of where they get their powers(energy left over by the big bang) any one who used that attack would destroy the universe and kill themselves.The big bang contained ALL the energy in the universe will ever have so to have that power they would have to absorb all the power including the energy that combines molecules together and create a big crunch that ends existance.You can't take SS charaters word for it when they never even come close to using the kind of power they say their attacks have and not take Cell's word when his feat is much more believable based on feats done by weaker characters.



Maybe if Cell's boast was stated by someone other than himself, and repeated many times by trustworthy characters, you would have a point.

As for the Athena Exclamation: The way I see it working is that they use its power on the target, and then the extra power is absorbed back into time from the universe.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> No he can't.Seeing as he has no say what so ever in DBZ he can't take away anyones power.Garlic Jr. is immortal simple as that.Neither Tenchi,TOAA,nor the Pressence can take away his immortality.



Um, yes they can, since they're more powerful than the being that granted it in the first place.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, yes they can, since they're more powerful than the being that granted it in the first place.



That doesn't make any sense at all. If a mother gives birth to her child, and i'm stronger than the mom, can I take away the birth? No.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Maybe if Cell's boast was stated by someone other than himself, and repeated many times by trustworthy characters, you would have a point.
> 
> As for the Athena Exclamation: The way I see it working is that they use its power on the target, and then the extra power is absorbed back into time from the universe.


Trustworthy is a relative term considering some of the blatant lies that ss says.Wouldn't matter how it's used the simply act of drawing in that energy would destroy the universe.And it doesn't matter who says only that it was said and no one refutted it.Your still using a double standard.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> That doesn't make any sense at all. If a mother gives birth to her child, and i'm stronger than the mom, can I take away the birth? No.



False analogy.

A more appropriate one would be that a Vice President hires a man to work at a company. The President of the company, however, being more powerful than the Vice President, can fire the man without the Vice President's permission.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Trustworthy is a relative term considering some of the blatant lies that ss says.Wouldn't matter how it's used the simply act of drawing in that energy would destroy the universe.And it doesn't matter who says only that it was said and no one refutted it.Your still using a double standard.



Not if it was all concentrated on one target and then returned back to whence it came.

And it does matter who says something.

If a known liar says he will give you a million dollars if you tell him your credit card number, would you believe him?


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> False analogy.
> 
> A more appropriate one would be that a Vice President hires a man to work at a company. The President of the company, however, being more powerful than the Vice President, can fire the man without the Vice President's permission.



Not for no reason. You're stating that cosmic beings are saying they take away immortality(which is impossible) just because they feel like it? Nope.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not if it was all concentrated on one target and then returned back to whence it came.
> 
> And it does matter who says something.
> 
> If a known liar says he will give you a million dollars if you tell him your credit card number, would you believe him?


Your not getting that it WOULDN'T matter how it's concentrated it would still destroy the universe by breaking down the bonds that hold ALL MOLECULES AND ATOMS together not only killing your oppenet but everyone else too.And when has Cell lied?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Not for no reason. You're stating that cosmic beings are saying they take away immortality(which is impossible) just because they feel like it? Nope.



The whole point of a cosmic being is that for them, the impossible becomes possible.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Your not getting that it WOULDN'T matter how it's concentrated it would still destroy the universe by breaking down the bonds that hold ALL MOLECULES AND ATOMS together not only killing your oppenet but everyone else too.And when has Cell lied?



How is it going to do that if it only is used on the target and nowhere else?



"I am perfect! I can never be defeated! I will kill Gohan and Goku! I will destroy this planet! I will live forever!"

Do any of those ring a bell?


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> The whole point of a cosmic being is that for them, the impossible becomes possible.



Really....fine then can a cosmic being do this: Make a boulder so heavy in which they can't lift it.

And once they're done with that, you think they can lift that boulder?


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> How is it going to do that if it only is used on the target and nowhere else?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Since energy is neither created or destroyed all that power has to come from somewhere.Law of conversion of energy, it's basic physics.No matter who or what is attacked the universe is still destroyed.That's not lying that's saying what he believes.Lying means that even the person saying doesn't believe what their saying.As far as Cell was concerned it was the truth.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Really....fine then can a cosmic being do this: Make a boulder so heavy in which they can't lift it.
> 
> And once they're done with that, you think they can lift that boulder?


 So they can't do that. That in no way means that they aren't powerful enough to, nor does it in any way disprove that they can, remove Garlic Jr's. immortailty. Just because they have a limit, doesn't mean that they can't remove his immortality.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Really....fine then can a cosmic being do this: Make a boulder so heavy in which they can't lift it.
> 
> And once they're done with that, you think they can lift that boulder?



A supralogical omnipotent could.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Since energy is neither created or destroyed all that power has to come from somewhere.Law of conversion of energy, it's basic physics.No matter who or what is attacked the universe is still destroyed.That's not lying that's saying what he believes.Lying means that even the person saying doesn't believe what their saying.As far as Cell was concerned it was the truth.



It comes from the Big Bang. It's brought forward in time and concentrated on the enemy. Then it returns to the Big Bang at the very moment it left.

Quite simple if you ask me.

And it wasn't the truth, because none of those things happened.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> A supralogical omnipotent could.



But there's no such being in any show, therefore the light shines on the DB universe once again.


----------



## Shiron (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> But there's no such being in any show, therefore the light shines on the DB universe once again.


Link removed


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## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It comes from the Big Bang. It's brought forward in time and concentrated on the enemy. Then it returns to the Big Bang at the very moment it left.
> 
> Quite simple if you ask me.
> 
> And it wasn't the truth, because none of those things happened.


Your not getting it.Yes it's from the big bang BUT to use that power you have to take it from somewhere.To use that power you'd HAVE TO ABSORB ALL THE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE THUS DESTROYING IT.The energy from the big bang isn't just lyng around somwhere.You don't know what your talking about concerning energy so stop because your wrong.To Cell those things were the truth.Something it true to a person if they believe what their saying not on wheither or not it happens.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Jul 31, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> So they can't do that. That in no way means that they aren't powerful enough to, nor does it in any way disprove that they can, remove Garlic Jr's. immortailty. Just because they have a limit, doesn't mean that they can't remove his immortality.



Then what's the point of an omnipotent? There isn't, because as I've proved, an omnipotent CAN'T do everything there is. So if they have a limit, they aren't gods, and making the impossible possible(in the comical world) doesn't make sense and exist.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_You're stating that cosmic beings are saying they take away immortality(which is impossible) just because they feel like it? Nope._

Even the Dargon that granted it isn't that powerful in terms of powers and scope.

_Really....fine then can a cosmic being do this: Make a boulder so heavy in which they can't lift it.

And once they're done with that, you think they can lift that boulder?_

You'd be surprise of the actual answer to that question.

And in addition, the Dragon can't do this neither. It's not omnipotent.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_Then what's the point of an omnipotent?_

The same one would pose that question to an all-powerful being. Theologians and philosophers alike have provided an answer to that question.

_There isn't, because as I've proved, an omnipotent CAN'T do everything there is._

And thus, neither can the Dragon. However, the Dragon can do far less.

_So if they have a limit, they aren't gods, and making the impossible possible(in the comical world) doesn't make sense and exist._

The Dragon has a limit, more so than the cosmics.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> But there's no such being in any show, therefore the light shines on the DB universe once again.




Many fictional omnipotents can be argued to be supralogical


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Your not getting it.Yes it's from the big bang BUT to use that power you have to take it from somewhere.To use that power you'd HAVE TO ABSORB ALL THE POWER IN THE UNIVERSE THUS DESTROYING IT.The energy from the big bang isn't just lyng around somwhere.You don't know what your talking about concerning energy so stop because your wrong.To Cell those things were the truth.Something it true to a person if they believe what their saying not on wheither or not it happens.



Okay, let me put it this way: Say you have a rock and a time machine. You go back in time 5 minutes ago, and take the same rock and bring it to the present. Then you have 2 copies of the same rock.

Just replace 'rock' with 'Big Bang energy' in this case.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Okay, let me put it this way: Say you have a rock and a time machine. You go back in time 5 minutes ago, and take the same rock and bring it to the present. Then you have 2 copies of the same rock.
> 
> Just replace 'rock' with 'Big Bang energy' in this case.


The problem is there is only one souce of all enegy and that's the big bang.Enegy and matter cannot be created or destroyed so by bringing a rock back in time would cause a paradox because there is only enough matter for that one rock at this time and possible destroy the universe.The energy from the big bang is all the enegry in the universe.To use that would destroy the universe.If they somehow took the energy through time to use they would unmake existance.There is no well or spring of "big bang energy".YOU use an infantesimal amount of energy from the big bang as we speak because all energy that has ever been or will ever be is already present.There is no way for someone to use it's power.None.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> The problem is there is only one souce of all enegy and that's the big bang.Enegy and matter cannot be created or destroyed so by bringing a rock back in time would cause a paradox because there is only enough matter for that one rock at this time and possible destroy the universe.The energy from the big bang is all the enegry in the universe.To use that would destroy the universe.If they somehow took the energy through time to use they would unmake existance.There is no well or spring of "big bang energy".YOU use an infantesimal amount of energy from the big bang as we speak because all energy that has ever been or will ever be is already present.There is no way for someone to use it's power.None.



This is where the paradoxes of time travel come in.

Normally, you would be right, as time travel is impossible according to the laws of physics in our universe, as is creating or destroying matter/energy.

However, in a universe where time travel is possible, laws like conservation of matter and energy need not apply. Once you break one law of physics, you will find that several others are violated as a corollary.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> This is where the paradoxes of time travel come in.
> 
> Normally, you would be right, as time travel is impossible according to the laws of physics in our universe, as is creating or destroying matter/energy.
> 
> However, in a universe where time travel is possible, laws like conservation of matter and energy need not apply. Once you break one law of physics, you will find that several others are violated as a corollary.


And as you yourself have said until otherwise proven the laws of physics are different then we assume they are the same.Besides simply by gathering that much energy would cause the universe to implode on it's self in a massive blackhole.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

We already know the laws of physics are different, because FTL travel is possible. By the definition of relativity, FTL travel violates causality. Therefore temporal paradoxes can arise in the SS universe. One of them simply happens to be a logical explanation for the mechanism of the Athena Exclamation. As for your argument about the Big Bang energy collapsing the universe into a singularity, this can be answered by citing the theory of , which states that during the first moments of the universe, it expanded at an exponential rate, much much faster than the speed of light. This inflation, driven by negative vacuum energy, would be enough to counter the natural force of gravity that would normally compress all that matter and energy into a singularity.

So, to recap:

Athena Exclamation is invoked -> The energy of the Big Bang is drawn from the period of cosmic inflation ->This energy is concentrated against the opponent, while the inflationary forces prevent it from collapsing into a singularity -> The opponent is destroyed -> The Big Bang energy is returned to the past at the exact moment it left.


----------



## Gunners (Jul 31, 2006)

> It would take too long, and even if he managed to cover most of him, Flash could just vibrate out of it. Not to mention the Speedforce cage plan makes this moot anyway.



When Flash is caught in a substance he tends to stay still, shown when that tar mack guy and the other rouges ganged on him, the speed force cage, i haven't seen him move with it, also Buu could IT behind him.



> Flying: The whole point of building momentum in this case is to get airborne, so Flash just grabs Buu on his way out of the atmosphere.



And when Buu realise whats happening, he seperates himself, regardless, it is illegal for characters to willfully leave the battle thread.


----------



## Keollyn (Jul 31, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> I would love to debate against you on how they'll be able to take on dbz characters. First off, who and how do you think a character will take on SSJ goku.



Even though I know this might be out of the minds of those debating here, I'd like to state why a character from said universe can beat Goku (even at SSJ3). 

Xenogears: Well the big guns of the Xeno universe are chaos, KOS-MOS, Albedo, Elehayym, Myyah, Graf and Fei. Of the one's mentioned, current Albedo, Graf and Myyah could stalemate Goku; current chaos (only because he's shrouded in mystery. He can do one thing Goku can't... survive in the vaccum of space) KOS-MOS and Elehayym would lose to Goku; and Fei can beat Goku. 

RahXephon: Only one character this time, and it's Ayato Kamina with RahXephon. Short airtime doesn't help prove he can beat Goku without using retune, but since retune IS something he's capable of, retune (which I'll mention as rewriting history to the desire of Ayato) can and will be Goku's demise if ever they fought.


----------



## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> We already know the laws of physics are different, because FTL travel is possible. By the definition of relativity, FTL travel violates causality. Therefore temporal paradoxes can arise in the SS universe. One of them simply happens to be a logical explanation for the mechanism of the Athena Exclamation. As for your argument about the Big Bang energy collapsing the universe into a singularity, this can be answered by citing the theory of , which states that during the first moments of the universe, it expanded at an exponential rate, much much faster than the speed of light. This inflation, driven by negative vacuum energy, would be enough to counter the natural force of gravity that would normally compress all that matter and energy into a singularity.
> 
> So, to recap:
> 
> Athena Exclamation is invoked -> The energy of the Big Bang is drawn from the period of cosmic inflation ->This energy is concentrated against the opponent, while the inflationary forces prevent it from collapsing into a singularity -> The opponent is destroyed -> The Big Bang energy is returned to the past at the exact moment it left.


Which is wrong and impossible no matter how you try to explain it the energy still destroys the universe.Doesn't matter where or when the energy comes from.If you take it from the past then the universe doesn't start so the person using the attack just unmade not only reality but himself also, if he gets it from the future the influx of power would cause the universe to colapse on itself.Cosmic inflation doesn't increase the amount of energy but only the amount of energy that is used turning potential energy into kinetic energy which is still using energy from the big bang so by taking that energy away the inflation stops and gravity no with nothing holding it back creates a big crunch destroying the universe.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> When Flash is caught in a substance he tends to stay still, shown when that tar mack guy and the other rouges ganged on him, the speed force cage, i haven't seen him move with it, also Buu could IT behind him.



Two datapoints can't be used to predict a trend. And Flash is faster than thought, by the time Buu thinks of using IT Flash will be somewhere else.



> And when Buu realise whats happening, he seperates himself, regardless, it is illegal for characters to willfully leave the battle thread.



He won't realize what's happening until he is already light - years from Earth and in a Speedforce cage. And since they're both leaving they still count as being on the same battlefield.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Which is wrong and impossible no matter how you try to explain it the energy still destroys the universe.Doesn't matter where or when the energy comes from.If you take it from the past then the universe doesn't start so the person using the attack just unmade not only reality but himself also, if he gets it from the future the influx of power would cause the universe to colapse on itself.Cosmic inflation doesn't increase the amount of energy but only the amount of energy that is used turning potential energy into kinetic energy which is still using energy from the big bang so by taking that energy away the inflation stops and gravity no with nothing holding it back creates a big crunch destroying the universe.



If the energy is returned at the exact moment it was taken, it's the same as if there was no interruption. This is not a difficult concept.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> If the energy is returned at the exact moment it was taken, it's the same as if there was no interruption. This is not a difficult concept.


The fact that it's taken at all destroys the universe and there's no getting around it.If you take the energy from the big bang you destroy the universe period.It's not a difficult concept.


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## Endless Mike (Jul 31, 2006)

You're just being ignorant now.

If it's taken and returned at the exact same moment, then effectively it was never taken at all.


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## superbatman86 (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're just being ignorant now.
> 
> If it's taken and returned at the exact same moment, then effectively it was never taken at all.


No you just don't understand.It doesn't matter if puts it back the simple fact that he TOOK it ends the universe and there's no getting around it.Your being stubborn and ignorant if you think the speed in which that power is used MATTERS because it doesn't.If it's taken at all with no exceptions on where or when it came from or when it's put back the universe is over.


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## SSJKrillin (Jul 31, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Once you break one law of physics, you will find that several others are violated as a corollary.



This coming from the guy who said that DBZ characters are moving slow caus there are no sonic booms.


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## Comic Book Guy (Jul 31, 2006)

_This coming from the guy who said that DBZ characters are moving slow caus there are no sonic booms._

If memory serves me correctly, I'm the one who says that DBZ warriors are not lightspeed due to the lack of sonic booms.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _
> 
> If memory serves me correctly, I'm the one who says that DBZ warriors are not lightspeed due to the lack of sonic booms._


_

Memory doesn't serve you correctly. You probably don't remember as early back as the Goku vs Frieza fight(and this was before he turned SSJ) he did warmups against frieza all over Namek and there were sonic booms IN EVERY PLACE they fought._


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## Shiron (Aug 1, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> Memory doesn't serve you correctly. You probably don't remember as early back as the Goku vs Frieza fight(and this was before he turned SSJ) he did warmups against frieza all over Namek and there were sonic booms IN EVERY PLACE they fought.


Sorry, just looked over the fight in the manga; not seeing any sonic booms. FYI, in case you're getting confused, the sounds of them punching each other =/= sonic booms.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 1, 2006)

I guess the loud booming noises and the big sound holes in the anime were just Goku's big fart huh?


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 1, 2006)

_Memory doesn't serve you correctly._

And how would you know that, since you are not me? And to add on that you weren't evn there when I posed that argument.

_I guess the loud booming noises and the big sound holes in the anime were just Goku's big fart huh?_

Humour doesn't contribute much to these debates.


----------



## Shiron (Aug 1, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> I guess the loud booming noises and the big sound holes in the anime were just Goku's big fart huh?


 Those lound booming noises were the sounds of them punching each other (at least, that's the only loud booming noises I can think of)... And these sounds don't exist in the manga, the higher canon, anyways. The manga is soundless. I'm not seeing anything stating that those sound effects were supposed to be sonic booms; that is an assumption on your part.

So, anyways, if there are some sonic booms, then please provide a scan or something to prove that there are.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> No you just don't understand.It doesn't matter if puts it back the simple fact that he TOOK it ends the universe and there's no getting around it.Your being stubborn and ignorant if you think the speed in which that power is used MATTERS because it doesn't.If it's taken at all with no exceptions on where or when it came from or when it's put back the universe is over.



No, because it is returned at the EXACT SAME MOMENT it was taken in the first place, so it's as if it was never taken at all.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 1, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> Those lound booming noises were the sounds of them punching each other (at least, that's the only loud booming noises I can think of)... And these sounds don't exist in the manga, the higher canon, anyways. The manga is soundless. I'm not seeing anything stating that those sound effects were supposed to be sonic booms; that is an assumption on your part.
> 
> So, anyways, if there are some sonic booms, then please provide a scan or something to prove that there are.



wth? You're simply ignorant and denying the fact that just because anime has color, voices, and animation that it's all not canon? Why produce anime at all then-by your standards nothing in the anime happened at all.


----------



## Shiron (Aug 1, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> wth? You're simply ignorant and denying the fact that just because anime has color, voices, and animation that it's all not canon? Why produce anime at all then-by your standards nothing in the anime happened at all.


 The point is, whether you like it or not, the manga is more canon than the anime. The manga is more canon because it's the original material. Since it's the orignial source, it's the most canon source. This isn't a hard concept to grasp...


The anime is produced for people who want to see it in color and such and to reach a different audience; an audience that isn't interested in manga, but is interested in anime. Basically, it's produced so the anime team can make some money off of the series.

Yes, the anime exists. That doesn't make it more canon than the magna though. It can serve its purpouse without being useful in debates such as this and without being considered just as canon or more so than the manga. Yet again, I'm not seeing why this is such a hard concept to grasp...


----------



## SSJKrillin (Aug 1, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Memory doesn't serve you correctly._
> 
> And how would you know that, since you are not me? And to add on that you weren't evn there when I posed that argument.



Im pretty sure he argued it aswell.

NE ways to quote



			
				Endless Mike said:
			
		

> That's just dishonest.
> 
> You can't just say "Such - and - such is faster than light" and then say "physics doesn't matter" because the speed of light is a constant determined by PHYSICS!
> 
> What you're really saying is "physics doesn't matter, except when it helps my argument".


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

How about you provide evidence that the specific violations of physics present in the DBU would logically lead to the absence of sonic booms?


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, because it is returned at the EXACT SAME MOMENT it was taken in the first place, so it's as if it was never taken at all.


But it was and that's all that matters.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

No, it doesn't matter. If it's returned at the exact same time it was taken, it's the same as if it was never taken at all.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, it doesn't matter. If it's returned at the exact same time it was taken, it's the same as if it was never taken at all.


No it's not because no matter how fast it's returned it was taken and the energy in the present would also destroy the universe.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

No, because it is taken and then returned without interruption. And I already explained why in the present it won't destroy the universe. Stop ignoring my points and repeating the same thing over and over again. The attack only affects the target, not the rest of the universe, and is then sent back to the exact moment it was taken.

Here, let me make it more clear: The smallest amount of time possible, the essential 'frame - rate' of the universe, is the Planck Second (approximately 1e-44 seconds).

Let's compare what happens in the Big Bang when the energy is taken and not taken.

Say each hyphen represents a Planck second in the timeline of the early universe:

----------

This is the universe when the energy was not taken. The energy is present in all of the Planck seconds.

----------
     ^

This is the timeline of when the energy was taken. The arrow indicates the Planck second at which it was taken. However, it is returned in that exact same Planck second, and continues as if nothing happened.

As you can see, the two timelines are identical.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 1, 2006)

Actually, you can shrink the time window into a instant, can you not?


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, because it is taken and then returned without interruption. And I already explained why in the present it won't destroy the universe. Stop ignoring my points and repeating the same thing over and over again. The attack only affects the target, not the rest of the universe, and is then sent back to the exact moment it was taken.
> 
> Here, let me make it more clear: The smallest amount of time possible, the essential 'frame - rate' of the universe, is the Planck Second (approximately 1e-44 seconds).
> 
> ...


I ignore your points because THEY ARE WRONG.Anyone with small knoledge on how energy works can see this.It doesn't matter how it's focused or what it's aimed at the results are still the same:universal destruction.If anyone takes the energy they destroy the present along with themselves leaving them unable to return it to the past.So now just to make one move work SS characters have the ability to take power from the past or present and create alternate timelines just for the sake of power.The longer you keep clinging to this idea the more blatant the fact that your bais gets in the way of your rational thinking during debates.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

I already explained this. They take it from the past, and concentrate it against the target. The rest of the universe is unaffected, and after the target is destroyed, it is returned back to the past before it can threaten the rest of the universe.

Besides, we know time travel exists in SS because FTL speed exists.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> I already explained this. They take it from the past, and concentrate it against the target. The rest of the universe is unaffected, and after the target is destroyed, it is returned back to the past before it can threaten the rest of the universe.
> 
> Besides, we know time travel exists in SS because FTL speed exists.


What part of it doesn't matter how it's concentrated don't you get?Even if the energy is just gathered the universe is destroyed there's no need to even unleash the attack.FTL speed doesn't equate to time travel.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

No, it's not destroyed, because it only affects a small area. You do know that gravity and other forces only propagate at the speed of light? Even if the energy was brouhgt to the present and just left to expand unhindered, it would still take billions of years to destroy the universe.

And FTL speed implies time travel, as per the theory of relativity.


----------



## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> How about you provide evidence that the specific violations of physics present in the DBU would logically lead to the absence of sonic booms?



[~Albert Einstein theorized that time and gravity are a close link. He also said if you travel at the speed of light your body will age  slower than people that are not. If you travel at the speed of light for 10 years, came back to earth, you'll be 10,000 years into the future (or something like that). In 1976 a physicist theorized you can travel back in time by getting and object with a gravity 100,000 stronger than our sun's, stand at the edge of it, and spin the object close to light speed. The exact opposite of going to the future in which you must go at the speed of light. 


Remember, the higher ones gravity or weight in proportion to one's relative gravity, the faster time would travel. To an ant, life seems just as long as to an elephant. That's why flies have much better reflexes. 


Now, imagine the Earth, the Sun and a blackhole laying on top of a rubber sheet. Earth will bend the sheet a little and the Sun will bend the sheet a lot because its heavier. A Black Hole on the other hand will break through the sheet. The Black Hole has such a powerful gravity that even light cannot escape. The Black Hole is quite literally making it's own time frame and own universe. In other words, if you bend gravity, you bend time. Any physicist will tell you this.~]

Onto DBZ:

I connected this theory with why in DBZ they have really fast reflexes and move so fast. As one recalls, in DBZ sometimes move faster than the speed of sound without making sonic booms. In the next paragraph I'll make DBZ scientifically possible. 


Did you ever notice why gravity seems to be the main topic of massive powerlevel increases? That's because Goku is able to adapt to lets say 450 times gravity. To him, normal now is 450 times gravity. Everything in the normal gravity world just seems slow when he's charged up. Sure, there are other ways of become ungodly powerful in DBZ without gravity training, but this is concrete evidence. Goku in which now mastered time a gravity himself because earth's gravity is no longer an obstacle. 


Couple paragraphs ago I said that DBZ characters usually don't make sonic booms even though they travel much faster than the speed of sound. Well, think about it. Vegeta is like a black hole, his power is so strong that he's able bend time and gravity himself History lesson: In 1996 a French physicist proposed on can travel at the speed of light without actually going the speed of light. If you can squeeze the gravity ahead of you, you can get past the object faster but still going at the same speed. That's because there's less distance between you and your desired point. What Vegeta does is bend gravity ahead of him so he can get closer, lets say, Recoom, without having to break the law of physics which does not permit traveling close to the speed of light. The higher one's powerlevel, the higher one's "gravity". So Vegeta gets to Recoom without actually traveling faster than the speed of sound in which ladies and gentleman, without making a sonic boom. 


Why do you think when character charge up, they strangely alter gravity around them? Or when two character lock up, the ground around them creates a crater? They create their own gravity.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> No, it's not destroyed, because it only affects a small area. You do know that gravity and other forces only propagate at the speed of light? Even if the energy was brouhgt to the present and just left to expand unhindered, it would still take billions of years to destroy the universe.
> 
> And FTL speed implies time travel, as per the theory of relativity.


No it wouldn't because there would be twice the enegy in the universe than it is capable of having.Even if they could control that kind of power which they can't or they'd long ago destroyed the planet with a punch the concentration of the energy it would create a black hole that would do what?You guessed it destroy the universe.You can't pick and choose what physics to use to suit your theory and ignore it when it makes it impossible.And if they are capalbe of time travel in SS how come none of the gods used it to go back in time to kill the saints before they could stop them?Einstein's theory said time travel might be possible but didn't take into account quantum mechanics or the possiblility of a paradox occuring.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

Sharingan No Yondaime said:
			
		

> *snip*



Couple problems: One, you have absolutely no evidence for this theory. Two, craters are created when they power up because of the emission of their ki. Three, gravitic fluctuation of that magnitude would rip the earth apart.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> No it wouldn't because there would be twice the enegy in the universe than it is capable of having.Even if they could control that kind of power which they can't or they'd long ago destroyed the planet with a punch the concentration of the energy it would create a black hole that would do what?You guessed it destroy the universe.You can't pick and choose what physics to use to suit your theory and ignore it when it makes it impossible.And if they are capalbe of time travel in SS how come none of the gods used it to go back in time to kill the saints before they could stop them?Einstein's theory said time travel might be possible but didn't take into account quantum mechanics or the possiblility of a paradox occuring.



It wouldn't create a black hole due to cosmic inflation, where the spacetime is expanding faster than light so gravity itself is not fast enough to catch the energy and collapse it into a black hole.

As for the SS gods and time travel, there are many explanations, one of them being the predestination model (if you go back in time, you won't be able to actually change anything, because whatever you did there would have already been done before you left).

Before you bring it up, this does not invalidate the proposed Athena Exclamation mechanism, all it means is that before the attack is used, the energy would already have been taken and returned in the beginning of the universe.


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## Guy Gardner (Aug 1, 2006)

Ah, the good old 'Pojo.com' excuse for Dragonball. I remember someone showing that to me a while back.

If this is true, then why does Goku have so much trouble with 10x Gravity on the way to Namek? It's obvious they are moving faster than sound, yet he isn't at all used to gravitational forces. At least in the earlier episodes one would think that they would.

Another example is Frieza's extreme speed against Nail. If there was a gravitational thing going on, the ground would have cracked. Instead, he just disappeared.

Thirdly, there should be more gravitational disruption while they move. If someone is just moving superfast across the ground via gravity, you should have massive grooves where people are moving at the very least. Warping gravity around you to the extent to pass the speed of light would have massive implications on the surrounding land, even moreso than we've ever seen with any of powering up in Dragonball Z.

More contradictions arise: When people start making holes in the ground, things like rocks and pebbles beging to fly upwards. If there is stronger gravity, then they should be pressed against the ground.

All in all, it's a cute theory, but lacks any sort of corroborating evidence from the show other than the fans want to say "THEY REALLY MOVE FAST!" and they can occasionally create a sinkhole by powering up.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It wouldn't create a black hole due to cosmic inflation, where the spacetime is expanding faster than light so gravity itself is not fast enough to catch the energy and collapse it into a black hole.
> 
> As for the SS gods and time travel, there are many explanations, one of them being the predestination model (if you go back in time, you won't be able to actually change anything, because whatever you did there would have already been done before you left).
> 
> Before you bring it up, this does not invalidate the proposed Athena Exclamation mechanism, all it means is that before the attack is used, the energy would already have been taken and returned in the beginning of the universe.


Black holes are made when mass is concentrated to a certain point.The sun is basically a giant ball of energy if we condenced it enough it would create a black hole.Now take all the energy in the universe and condence it to what 100 feet as you said it would only affect the target and you'd get the most massive black hole that could possible be created.One so powerful not even time(because you equate FTL=Time travel) could escape that would almost instantly suck in the universe.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Couple problems: One, you have absolutely no evidence for this theory. Two, craters are created when they power up because of the emission of their ki. Three, gravitic fluctuation of that magnitude would rip the earth apart.


Funny how your arguing about something having no basis and how physics affect the envirement when your own theory is vastly more unbelievable.Once again your bais is made obviuose.You can't argue for and against physics at the same time.


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## Sharingan No Yondaime (Aug 1, 2006)

Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> If this is true, then why does Goku have so much trouble with 10x Gravity on the way to Namek?


Iono man maybe because he was noob back then?



			
				justice and rule said:
			
		

> yet he isn't at all used to gravitational forces. At least in the earlier episodes one would think that they would.


Well I'm pretty sure in the spaceship training Goku altered his body a bit to match the gravitational force around him,(this would easily make a human's insides implode), which puts strain on his body, which is why when he set the gravitational force to 0gs, he was as light as a feather and could catch a rock after he threw it.



			
				Justice And Rule said:
			
		

> Another example is Frieza's extreme speed against Nail. If there was a gravitational thing going on, the ground would have cracked. Instead, he just disappeared.


No it was just a matter of super speed. You can't create a sonic boom or make the ground crack from speed due to short distance Frieza and Nail were facing each other from.



			
				justice and rule said:
			
		

> Thirdly, there should be more gravitational disruption while they move. If someone is just moving superfast across the ground via gravity, you should have massive grooves where people are moving at the very least.


It's been shown; we've seen in Goku's journey to Namek every step he took was basically a crack in the ground.



			
				Justice and Rule= said:
			
		

> Warping gravity around you to the extent to pass the speed of light would have massive implications on the surrounding land, even moreso than we've ever seen with any of powering up in Dragonball Z.


I don't totally agree with Pojo's theory, but will get back to you.



			
				Justice and Rule said:
			
		

> More contradictions arise: When people start making holes in the ground, things like rocks and pebbles beging to fly upwards. If there is stronger gravity, then they should be pressed against the ground.


Well most of the fights occur on Earth which doesn't really matter anyway, since the gravity is so low. Just the fact that they can lift pebbles and such on different planets with much higher gravity than that of Earth just proves how strong they are.



			
				justice and rule said:
			
		

> All in all, it's a cute theory, but lacks any sort of corroborating evidence from the show


Although Toriyama doesn't explain much in his novels, he doesn't need to. Anyone with basic knowledge of physics should be able to apply it to the gravitational force of the location whether it's Earth, Namek, spaceship, etc. 



			
				justice and rule said:
			
		

> than the fans want to say "THEY REALLY MOVE FAST!" and they can occasionally create a sinkhole by powering up.


They DO move really fast. The animators actually broke it down for us so we could actually see what was going on, or else if were just a normal human in the DBZ universe, we couldn't tell wth was going on up in the sky, we'd just see a bunch of dots zipping everywhere.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Black holes are made when mass is concentrated to a certain point.The sun is basically a giant ball of energy if we condenced it enough it would create a black hole.Now take all the energy in the universe and condence it to what 100 feet as you said it would only affect the target and you'd get the most massive black hole that could possible be created.One so powerful not even time(because you equate FTL=Time travel) could escape that would almost instantly suck in the universe.



Not if it's taken from the period of cosmic inflation, where it was expanding faster than the speed of light. Gravity only travels at the speed of light, so it would be expanding too fast for gravity to catch it and collapse it.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Funny how your arguing about something having no basis and how physics affect the envirement when your own theory is vastly more unbelievable.Once again your bais is made obviuose.You can't argue for and against physics at the same time.



My theory works perfectly, it does not predict results unseen like the other one does.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Not if it's taken from the period of cosmic inflation, where it was expanding faster than the speed of light. Gravity only travels at the speed of light, so it would be expanding too fast for gravity to catch it and collapse it.


Gravity travels faster than light in a black hole that's why light doesn't escape it.And the black hole made out of the energy in the universe not only would be galaxies wide but would have more force behind it than the cosmic inflation.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> My theory works perfectly, it does not predict results unseen like the other one does.


And no it doesn't as I've explained over and over again while you just make up more absurd reasons that still don't work and have no evidence what so ever to support.If SS defies physics then it's okay, but if DBZ does the same it's not okay.Your a hypocrite for saying one univers can defy the laws of nature and another can't.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Gravity travels faster than light in a black hole that's why light doesn't escape it.And the black hole made out of the energy in the universe not only would be galaxies wide but would have more force behind it than the cosmic inflation.



Um, no. Gravity travels at exactly the speed of light. A singularity is just an object with an escape velocity greater than light. An escape velocity is a required velocity, not an actual velocity. Nothing in a black hole is actually moving faster than light.


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## Guy Gardner (Aug 1, 2006)

*sigh*

First off, no. Where Goku was stepping, cracks were NOT forming. Not at all. When he fought the Ginyu force (outside of Ginyu), in both the manga and in the anime fillers, he wasn't making any sort of massive cracks. No gravity booster, no nothing. Yet I'm sure many DBZ fans would argue they were easily going super-sonic.

Just because a planet is bigger doesn't necessarily mean the gravity is stronger. Density determines this.

Now with the whole explanation of the Gravity Chamber, I think that's BS. If he were creating artificial gravity wells so that he could boost around without creating a Sonic Boom, he'd be at least somewhat used to it. He's still left straining. I mean, just as Phenom brought up, he's been dodging lightning since the original series! Yet he isn't used to a little bit of extra gravity?

Once again, there'd be a lot more collateral damage for altering gravity in such a way. All we ever see is a few craters every now and then when they power up. If we were using the gravity necessary to achieve the speed you are talking about, they'd be pounding holes the size of Cleveland from just powering up. They definitely aren't.

On the Animators: No, through these shows they show people talking at regular speed as well. Like the Frieza Saga fight: While Goku and Frieza were fighting, Gohan and Piccolo were doing things, things were happening on Earth... it all wasn't super-speedy time. Things like rocks manage to fall in real time, smoke and debris kicks up in real time... but we are supposed to believe that this is all sped up? We don't see Goku hit out the side of a mountain and watch the mountain slowly, slowly collapse as they start fighting again at super speed. No, the mountain falls in real-time. This entire concept of "The animators are the ones doing this!" is just something invented by the fans so they think their universe is the most powerful. They aren't going as fast as you really think they are.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And no it doesn't as I've explained over and over again while you just make up more absurd reasons that still don't work and have no evidence what so ever to support.If SS defies physics then it's okay, but if DBZ does the same it's not okay.Your a hypocrite for saying one univers can defy the laws of nature and another can't.



Please point out the exact post where I said DBZ does not defy the laws of physics.

You can't, because it doesn't exist, you liar.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Couple problems: One, you have absolutely no evidence for this theory. Two, craters are created when they power up because of the emission of their ki. Three, gravitic fluctuation of that magnitude would rip the earth apart.


Right here you said what would realy happen in DBZ based on his argument which your right about by the way.He's argued that DBZ defy physics due to gravity and you argued that DBZ would destroy the planet based on physics meaning that they are bound to it's rules.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Um, no. Gravity travels at exactly the speed of light. A singularity is just an object with an escape velocity greater than light. An escape velocity is a required velocity, not an actual velocity. Nothing in a black hole is actually moving faster than light.


A black hole's gravity is so strong not even light can escape it meaning the gravity in a black hole must be more or else light and gravity would equal each other and light would be frozen in a spot which isn't the case.Hell in a black hole time slows.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Right here you said what would realy happen in DBZ based on his argument which your right about by the way.He's argued that DBZ defy physics due to gravity and you argued that DBZ would destroy the planet based on physics meaning that they are bound to it's rules.



So because I said one rule of physics works in DBZ, that means the physics of the entire DBZ universe are identical to ours? We know gravity exists in DBZ and works the same as it does in our universe. Enough with the logical fallacies already.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> A black hole's gravity is so strong not even light can escape it meaning the gravity in a black hole must be more or else light and gravity would equal each other and light would be frozen in a spot which isn't the case.Hell in a black hole time slows.



Escape velocity is a REQUIRED velocity, not an actual velocity. Time dilation occurs in a black hole since accelerated motion is indistinguishable from a gravitational field. As light approaches a black hole, it reaches the event horizon and then is frozen in place. Nothing there actually moves faster than light.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> This is where the paradoxes of time travel come in.
> 
> Normally, you would be right, as time travel is impossible according to the laws of physics in our universe, as is creating or destroying matter/energy.
> 
> However, in a universe where time travel is possible, laws like conservation of matter and energy need not apply. Once you break one law of physics, you will find that several others are violated as a corollary.


You mean like this?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> You mean like this?



You're misinterpreting my quote. It does not mean "Just because some laws of physics are broken, we can just ignore any other ones we want". It means "Due to the fact that several laws of physics are broken, it logically follows that certain other ones will as well."

Demonstrate how gravity being warped so much without the expected effects logically follows from the physics violations already present in DBZ.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Escape velocity is a REQUIRED velocity, not an actual velocity. Time dilation occurs in a black hole since accelerated motion is indistinguishable from a gravitational field. As light approaches a black hole, it reaches the event horizon and then is frozen in place. Nothing there actually moves faster than light.


Nothing ever reaches the event horizon.Light has a constant speed of 186,000 miles/s and by definiton is fixed at this speed or it ceases to be light, so if light can't escape then gravity in a black hole must be faster to pull it in.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 1, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> You're misinterpreting my quote. It does not mean "Just because some laws of physics are broken, we can just ignore any other ones we want". It means "Due to the fact that several laws of physics are broken, it logically follows that certain other ones will as well."
> 
> Demonstrate how gravity being warped so much without the expected effects logically follows from the physics violations already present in DBZ.


So now your saying that once you break one law of physics some but only some can also be broken.By the very same argument you just used I can say that the law of conversion of energy can't be Broken just because time travel doesn't destroy the universe.I didn't misinterpret anything.You used that argument when it works for SS and argue againt it when it works for DBZ and when I call you on your bais you back pedal and say it meant something other than what YOU said.I never said that gravity could defy physics I used some one else's argument to point out your double standards and hypocricy.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 1, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Nothing ever reaches the event horizon.Light has a constant speed of 186,000 miles/s and by definiton is fixed at this speed or it ceases to be light, so if light can't escape then gravity in a black hole must be faster to pull it in.



Untrue, scientists have slowed light down in the laboratory. Light only travels at c in a vacuum.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> So now your saying that once you break one law of physics some but only some can also be broken.By the very same argument you just used I can say that the law of conversion of energy can't be Broken just because time travel doesn't destroy the universe.I didn't misinterpret anything.You used that argument when it works for SS and argue againt it when it works for DBZ and when I call you on your bais you back pedal and say it meant something other than what YOU said.I never said that gravity could defy physics I used some one else's argument to point out your double standards and hypocricy.



Your ignorance truly knows no bounds.

Here, I'll spell it out for you:

Many of the laws of physics are interconnected. If one is different, it means that we can logically infer that laws that are inextricably connected to it are different as well. It does NOT mean that we can assume that laws that have no bearing on the broken law are different.

Example: If it's possible to go faster than light in a universe, it's possible to travel back in time, due to the fact that relativity links FTL speed and causality.

However, just because it's possible to travel faster than light in one universe doesn't mean that the strong nuclear force is different in that universe, because those laws are not connected.

I ask you again: Logically demonstrate why the observed physical violations in DBZ imply no appearance of the gravitational anomalies expected with the gravity theory.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Untrue, scientists have slowed light down in the laboratory. Light only travels at c in a vacuum.


No when they slowed it down they created a new form of matter once again based on the conversion of energy and matter.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Your ignorance truly knows no bounds.
> 
> Here, I'll spell it out for you:
> 
> ...


And suddenly you get to decide what laws can and can't be broken.You said one thing and now ara arguing another.In your first post you never said any of this and only now argue because someone else is using to their advantage.And if you read correctly I never said that gravity could be used that way I said I was using someone else's argument to point out your bais and I AGREED with you on that point.Before you call people ignorant maybe you should try reading 
what some one says.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> No when they slowed it down they created a new form of matter once again based on the conversion of energy and matter.



What are you talking about?

Reference please.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> What are you talking about?
> 
> Reference please.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> And suddenly you get to decide what laws can and can't be broken.You said one thing and now ara arguing another.In your first post you never said any of this and only now argue because someone else is using to their advantage.And if you read correctly I never said that gravity could be used that way I said I was using someone else's argument to point out your bais and I AGREED with you on that point.Before you call people ignorant maybe you should try reading
> what some one says.



Will you actually pay attention?

I don't decide what laws are broken or not, science decides that, by explaining how they are interconnected and what effect they have on each other. I'm merely explaining this.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

It only says they used that form of matter as a medium to send light through to slow it to that speed. It never says that's the only condition in which light is slowed. Light slows down when travelling through any medium by at least some degree, it only travels at c in a vacuum.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> It only says they used that form of matter as a medium to send light through to slow it to that speed. It never says that's the only condition in which light is slowed. Light slows down when travelling through any medium by at least some degree, it only travels at c in a vacuum.


Light doesn't slow down when it passes through things it's just being refracted which increases the distance.It's like runnig and then having the distance front of you lengthened thus you having to run father.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Light doesn't slow down when it passes through things it's just being refracted which increases the distance.It's like runnig and then having the distance front of you lengthened thus you having to run father.



Here, read this:


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Will you actually pay attention?
> 
> I don't decide what laws are broken or not, science decides that, by explaining how they are interconnected and what effect they have on each other. I'm merely explaining this.


Your explaing something that doesn't have a shred of evidence to back it up.Yes some laws are interconnected but I also said way back that I don't think SS can move that fast based on having no evidence besides hear-say to back it up.Since they never break any laws at all I don't see them breaking the law of conversion of energy.Your entire argument is based on someone's saying something and believing it and not believing something someone else says when there's a better case for it than the first mine is that your a hypocrite and bais debater who has a double standard on wheither or not saying =being able to do it.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Here, read this:


 Your right I misread something in my science book.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Your explaing something that doesn't have a shred of evidence to back it up.Yes some laws are interconnected but I also said way back that I don't think SS can move that fast based on having no evidence besides hear-say to back it up.Since they never break any laws at all I don't see them breaking the law of conversion of energy.Your entire argument is based on someone's saying something and believing it and not believing something someone else says when there's a better case for it than the first mine is that your a hypocrite and bais debater who has a double standard on wheither or not saying =being able to do it.



So something that is stated multiple times throughout the series, by characters both good and evil, with no reason to lie, is less reliable than something stated one time by one character who was extremely egotistical and maniacal and beleived himself to be perfect and unstoppable?

Right.....


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Your right I misread something in my science book.



Thank you.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> So something that is stated multiple times throughout the series, by characters both good and evil, with no reason to lie, is less reliable than something stated one time by one character who was extremely egotistical and maniacal and beleived himself to be perfect and unstoppable?
> 
> Right.....


Yes because that one statement was built apon the foundation that Freeza had no problem destroying a planet and Cell not only has his DNA in him but is vastly superior in every way possible.Also that egomaniac has no reason to lie and say his blast can do something that it can't.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

superbatman86 said:
			
		

> Yes because that one statement was built apon the foundation that Freeza had no problem destroying a planet and Cell not only has his DNA in him but is vastly superior in every way possible.Also that egomaniac has no reason to lie and say his blast can do something that it can't.



Yes he did, he could be trying to scare his enemies and psych them out. And it takes many, many orders of magnitude more energy to destroy a solar system than it does to destroy a planet.

Besides, I already said that I believe it's possible that Cell was telling the truth, he just meant he would destroy the sun and cause a shockwave to destroy the rest of the solar system.


----------



## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Yes he did, he could be trying to scare his enemies and psych them out. And it takes many, many orders of magnitude more energy to destroy a solar system than it does to destroy a planet.
> 
> Besides, I already said that I believe it's possible that Cell was telling the truth, he just meant he would destroy the sun and cause a shockwave to destroy the rest of the solar system.


Thank you.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 2, 2006)

Anyway, I'm turning in for now, I'll resume these debates later.


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## superbatman86 (Aug 2, 2006)

Endless Mike said:
			
		

> Anyway, I'm turning in for now, I'll resume these debates later.


I say we call it a draw.We've both made our cases and aren't make any head way one way or another.


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## Sasuke_Asakura (Aug 4, 2006)

*.....*

the flash kid cant eye his speed and when flash has the chance he can punch him or kick him.


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## Gamabunta (Aug 4, 2006)

The day Yondaime gets the power to destroy a planet he will win. Otherwise its kid buu allll the way!


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## Shiron (Aug 4, 2006)

blocky4 said:
			
		

> The day Yondaime gets the power to destroy a planet he will win. Otherwise its kid buu allll the way!


...
What?  This is between the Flash from comics (as in ) and Kid Buu, not one between Yondaime and Kid Buu.


----------



## Gamabunta (Aug 4, 2006)

LMFAO! wooops... disregard my comment


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## Gunners (Aug 4, 2006)

> the flash kid cant eye his speed and when flash has the chance he can punch him or kick him.



Buu, Flash can not survive his kicks, when he gets the chance buu will kill him.

Flash has speed, Buu has indurance, though speed matters a lot as strength can be rendered useless, if you use your strength wisely, you can catch the person with it. I could see Flash winning if he vibrated and vibrated constantly through Buu till his atoms became nothing, i am not sure how that would pan out though, like generally people explode if he vibrates through them but buu would survive that, it depends if he can break him down to nothing. I could see Buu getting that crucial hit in by surronding him with Kii sort of like android 18 and Piccollo, but Buu isn't as smart as Piccollo ( If only i gave buu who had absorbed Gotenks and Piccollo ) never the less Kid Buu he has killer instinct i am sure he would use that scheme sooner or later he is a pure killer so it is only natural  that he would find a way.


----------



## shadow978 (Aug 4, 2006)

*Buu...*



			
				gunners said:
			
		

> Buu, Flash can not survive his kicks, when he gets the chance buu will kill him.
> 
> Flash has speed, Buu has indurance, though speed matters a lot as strength can be rendered useless, if you use your strength wisely, you can catch the person with it. I could see Flash winning if he vibrated and vibrated constantly through Buu till his atoms became nothing, i am not sure how that would pan out though, like generally people explode if he vibrates through them but buu would survive that, it depends if he can break him down to nothing. I could see Buu getting that crucial hit in by surronding him with Kii sort of like android 18 and Piccollo, but Buu isn't as smart as Piccollo ( If only i gave buu who had absorbed Gotenks and Piccollo ) never the less Kid Buu he has killer instinct i am sure he would use that scheme sooner or later he is a pure killer so it is only natural  that he would find a way.




One good Energy wave and it'll be over for the flash...


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