# Who is the Strongest Akatsuki member, Gaara can beat?



## Kazekage94 (Jan 26, 2014)

The Title Says it All

Location: Open Field
Distance: 50 Meters
Knowledge: Full for Gaara, Partial for Enemy (he/she knows he is the Kazekage)
Mindset: IC

Second Scenario: Strongest Akatsuki duo he can beat?

He gets Shukaku
Gaara is bloodlust
Full knowledge for Gaara none for the enemies
The location is in a desert

How Powerful is the 5th Kazekage??


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## Aduro (Jan 26, 2014)

He's quite well suited for fighting Sasori, although Sasori was considered the senior partner his jutsu won't work well against Gaara's absolute defence as it still needs close range to use poison gas or a physical iniry for poison blades. As for Scenario 2, probably Hidan and Kakuzu, no-way is Hidan getting Gaara's blood.


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## Bonly (Jan 26, 2014)

Strongest Gaara could beat is Kisame or Itachi. How strong is he? He's strong enough to be in the High Kage tier.


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## Kai (Jan 26, 2014)

Kisame as the peak, though Gaara would need the most favorable terrain advantage at the match start.


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## Jagger (Jan 26, 2014)

Kisame or Itachi. Though, there's nothing definitive as you can argue for both sides with perfectly logical arguments.

However, nothing more beyond that. Obito and Nagato are enemies he can't beat. But, if you're asking for certainty, I'd say Kakuzu.


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

In scenario 1 i believe the strongest he can beat is kakuzu. 
then again this easily turns into a ranking. which isnt the point of the thread. some people he is well suited to beat eg: hidan will be trolled like a genin 
however i still believe deidara beats gaara 

in scenario 2. the strongest duo could is kakuzu and hidan but hidan is a non factor. 

kishi dropped the ball on hidan. hidan is pure nonesense to any living or dead kage ever drawn


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

The strongest akatsuki member he could defeat is Nagato's 6 paths of pain, but only because of the knowledge advantage. 

There, I said it, Gaara can beat Nagato's 6pop.

For the second scenario, I say he can beat Deidara/Sasori and Kakuzu/Hidan. He can win against Kisame or Itachi individually but facing them together would be a different story, I say he could win with high diff since he has Shukaku. Even if Kisame is the best in Akatsuki to fight bijuus, Gaara's good teamwork with Shukaku will make the difference


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 26, 2014)

Gaara defeated 2 Edo Kages well above most Akatsuki in strength, in the same day, and assisted Naruto in defeating a 3rd, but he also lost to Deidara. 

Tough to gauge, I'd probably go with Kakuzu as a certainty (All locations/limited knowledge/any distance), and arguably Kisame with the right conditions (Open desert plane/extended distance/full Knowledge). Maybe even Itachi with similar conditions.

Gaara jumps at least a tier while in the desert, and defeats a select few more powerful than him if he starts with extended distance.


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

deidara can beat gaara 
so can kisame 
shukaku wont make much a difference against kisame seeing as GSB will be awful if shukaku tried to counter via wind blast or bijuudama. 
also after each samehada swing kisame will get stronger and shukaku weaker. 
crushing kisame with sand is going to be hard when he has a sword that will eat the chakra in the sand 

also kisame can use just as much water as both shukaku and gaara. So kisame beats them individually or together

so does deidara for that matter. but thats because both are very well suited to fight against gaara and shukaku 

eg: even though itachi is stronger than kisame kisame will have more fun fighting gaara and shukaku than itachi will. 

and to the poster saying gaara can beat nagato  

nagato can beat bijuu 1 to 8 . 8 against 1.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> deidara can beat gaara
> so can kisame
> shukaku wont make much a difference against kisame seeing as GSB will be awful if shukaku tried to counter via wind blast or bijuudama.
> also after each samehada swing kisame will get stronger and shukaku weaker.
> ...



What which Scenario are you referring to?


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## Nikushimi (Jan 26, 2014)

Pain/Itachi
Obito
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
*Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu*


Gaara defeats the bolded.

Kisame is a HUGE maybe, but I wouldn't bet on Gaara pulling it off. So that leaves Kakuzu as the strongest Akatsuki member Gaara can _reliably_ beat.

Even if you give him Shukaku, Hidan+Kakuzu or Black Zetsu+White Zetsu are the only canon Akatsuki pairs Gaara can beat.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> deidara can beat gaara
> so can kisame
> shukaku wont make much a difference against kisame seeing as GSB will be awful if shukaku tried to counter via wind blast or bijuudama.
> also after each samehada swing kisame will get stronger and shukaku weaker.
> ...




I said he can beat the six paths of pain, not a healthy Nagato with all the rinnegan's abilities. Gaara has the knowledge of what each body does, he can pull it off with high diff.

Sure Kisame's enormous suitons are a threat but look at the location, it's in the desert, therefore Sabaku No Gaara is in his element. Yes samehada will absorb the chakra in Gaara's sand, but that's only for the sand in his gourd, and it doesn't absorb the sand, only the chakra in it so the sand his just weaker. I see him winning this with high difficulty. Btw, weaker sand doesn't mean useless sand.

Yes Deidara won against Gaara canonically. Gaara has full knowledge of all Deidara's abilities and he won't fall for the same trick twice. Gaara can use his sand to guard him against ALL Deidara's techniques. Remember how he completly destroyed Deidara's left arm? Even if Deidara flies, Gaara will put him down and eventually trap him in his big sand pyramid. He takes this with mid-high diff.


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> What which Scenario are you referring to?



lol sorry i wasnt clear 
scenario 1 . deidara,kisame, sasori, itachi, nagato, obito can beat gaara. 

scenario 2: the only duo gaara and shukaku can beat is kakuzu and hidan because hidan isnt a factor in any high level battle. 

i do not know of any kage or kage level ninja that hidan can compete with.

@sharingankisame deidara can simply use c4 and GG gaara 
gaara will have no idea that its nano bombs.  manga knowledge on deidara is actually what hurts gaara he will expect it to be just another huge explosion and proceed to block with sand. he breathes he dies 

kisame can turn the desert into an ocean in his first move. each time kisame absorbs sand from shukaku or gaara kisame gets stronger. 
in shark mode the second the sand comes close to kisame it becomes useless. 

also note kisame was able to absorb hachibi and killer bee chakra to zero their chakra pool exceed gaara and shukaku by alot. 

kisame>>>>>>>gaara with or without shukaku because he is suited to fight them


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lol sorry i wasnt clear
> scenario 1 . deidara,kisame, sasori, itachi, nagato, obito can beat gaara.
> 
> scenario 2: the only duo gaara and shukaku can beat is kakuzu and hidan because hidan isnt a factor in any high level battle.
> ...



The OP said full knowledge, not manga knowledge so Gaara knows about C4 garuda. Gaara won't let Deidara anytime to make his c4.

Yes Kisame absorbs chakra but he can't absorb the sand!. Again, Gaara has full knowledge so he will most likely take samehada off Kisame and will bury it in the ground. Without samehada, Kisame can't absorb any chakra that means Gaara will be able to use his chakra enhanced sand to fight him. But, even considering this, I'll have to go back on my position when I said Gaara takes this with high diff. At best, he wins against Kisame with extreme difficulty. Yes Kisame is the worst match-up for him, but the full knowledge he has makes the difference IMO.

Please note that Gaara can use sand that has no chakra in it which means kisame won't get  stronger when Gaara attacks him, except if he uses the sand in his gourd but like I said he knows every moves Kisame can do so he won't attack carelessly.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lol sorry i wasnt clear
> scenario 1 . deidara,kisame, sasori, itachi, nagato, obito can beat gaara.
> 
> scenario 2: the only duo gaara and shukaku can beat is kakuzu and hidan because hidan isnt a factor in any high level battle.
> ...



I'm going to have to disagree with you. Gaara can defeat Sasori not only because of his defense but Sand renders a puppet usless. A SandTsunami can defeat Sasori, and Gaara has full knowledge as well. Sasori may have iron sand but Gaara can kill him quickly and plus he has flight to evade the poison.

As for Itachi, Current Gaara can beat him more times than not. I meant to specify that this is Sick Itachi. Itachi has basically nothing to get through Gaara's defenses. Gaara can turtle up and ascend in order to evade genjutsu, and even if Susanoo comes out a swing won't break his defense and Itachi can't hold it up very long. Gaara outlasts him.

Now for Deidara, he only won because Gaara had to save his village. Full knowledge would suggest that Gaara knows about Deidaras jutsus and how dangerous they are. Since there isn't a village Gaara can go straight for Deidara. Gaara is the perfect counter for Deidara. C4 takes time to fully emerge and in that time Gaara could attack Deidara or fly out of range. I can't see Deidara successfully using C4. If Deidara uses C0 that kills him as well and Gaara doesn't even have to attack him.

Now Kisame and Gaara are a good match but if it was Gaara and Shukaku vs Kisame, then Kisame can't win because if Kisame attacks either one of them then the other one can attack him. BD vs GSB I'm pretty sure BD would destroy it. Also Gaara can levitate to stay out of his range. Kisame <<< Gaara and Shukaku


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

SharinganKisame said:


> The OP said full knowledge, not manga knowledge so Gaara knows about C4 garuda. Gaara won't let Deidara anytime to make his c4.
> 
> Yes Kisame absorbs chakra but he can't absorb the sand!. Again, Gaara has full knowledge so he will most likely take samehada off Kisame and will bury it in the ground. Without samehada, Kisame can't absorb any chakra that means Gaara will be able to use his chakra enhanced sand to fight him. But, even considering this, I'll have to go back on my position when I said Gaara takes this with high diff. At best, he wins against Kisame with extreme difficulty. Yes Kisame is the worst match-up for him, but the full knowledge he has makes the difference IMO.
> 
> Please note that Gaara can use sand that has no chakra in it which means kisame won't get  stronger when Gaara attacks him, except if he uses the sand in his gourd but like I said he knows every moves Kisame can do so he won't attack carelessly.



gaara can control normal sand by infusing his chakra into it otherwise it wont move. its slower because it doesnt come directly from him. kishi hasnt really explained it properly. 

taking samehada from kisame good luck, the second kisame notices thats gaara game plan he fuses with his sword. from there crushing kisame which is gaara strategy cant work if kisame keeps draining the chakra in the sand. the sand needs chakra to keep its crushing force 

as for deidara vs gaara. deidara battle smarts to me still put him above gaara with or without full knowledge. a Mini c4 fused with a c1 which gaara will think no biggie ill just block it can be used to great effect and kill gaara. gaara c4 are identical to his clay clones that as well could be used to great effect. gaara thinks its a generic clay clone which explodes like normal c1 but nope its a c4 clone.   tough battle though i admit alot tougher than kisame vs gaara

@kazekage94 
kisame vs gaara read above 
deidara vs gaara please do the same
itachi vs gaara?? sorry what are you serious current gaara without shukaku isnt doing jack shit to itachi. gaara best sealing jutsu didnt do shit to level 3 susanoo. itachi susanoo is breaking out of it without any trouble. Also note v3 susanoo sword smacked gaara to the ground he had difficulties defending against it. 
itachi susanoo will go right through it. lets not  forget a tskuyomi from the beginning of the fight which itachi can do if he pleases. sick itachi or not nothing stops him from using it. amaterasu can be dealt with i agree you dont even have to say it.

can anyone please provide evidence that gaara no gourd sand doesnt use his chakra. i really would like to know. might tip the scales in gaara favour against kisame


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> gaara can control normal sand by infusing his chakra into it otherwise it wont move. its slower because it doesnt come directly from him. kishi hasnt really explained it properly.
> 
> taking samehada from kisame good luck, the second kisame notices thats gaara game plan he fuses with his sword. from there crushing kisame which is gaara strategy cant work if kisame keeps draining the chakra in the sand. the sand needs chakra to keep its crushing force
> 
> as for deidara vs gaara. deidara battle smarts to me still put him above gaara with or without full knowledge. a Mini c4 fused with a c1 which gaara will think no biggie ill just block it can be used to great effect and kill gaara. gaara c4 are identical to his clay clones that as well could be used to great effect. gaara thinks its a generic clay clone which explodes like normal c1 but nope its a c4 clone.   tough battle though i admit alot tougher than kisame vs gaara




Was Deidara shown to be able to do so? This could be a good move for sure. 

Might Guy was able to take samehada from kisame with taijutsu, Gaara could use the sand just under kisame to send it as deep in the ground as he can. Yes samehada will absorb chakra while he does so but it won't be enough to stop the sand from sending him really deep underground. Once samehada is underground there won't be any chakra left to absorb because Gaara doesn't need chakra to keep samehada underground, he only need chakra while he buries it.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 26, 2014)

Probably Itachi IMO, only because his techs are the perfect counter to MS Jutsu ( Susanoo, Ametarasu, Genjutsu etc.......). He can also beat Sasori, Hidan, Konan, Kakazu, Zetsu and I would argue MS Obito. However Deidara and Kisame can beat him. Deidara because he has already beat a Jinchuriki Gaara (who I believe Is stronger then he is currently)  and Kisame because of his natural advantage, being able to turn Gaara's sand to mush and all.


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## Jagger (Jan 26, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Probably Itachi IMO, only because his techs are the perfect counter to MS Jutsu ( Susanoo, Ametarasu, Genjutsu etc.......). He can also beat Sasori, Hidan, Konan, Kakazu, Zetsu and I would argue MS Obito. However Deidara and Kisame can beat him. Deidara because he has already beat a Jinchuriki Gaara (who I believe Is stronger then he is currently)  and Kisame because of his natural advantage, being able to turn Gaara's sand to mush and all.


Gaara himself lacks any kind of counter against Amaterasu alone, though.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Gaara himself lacks any kind of counter against Amaterasu alone, though.



what about this? : 
Sasuke

Gaara won't get caught in a Tsukoyomi since he has full knowledge on Itachi's capacities, he can guard himself against Amaterasu and he can use the sand at Itachi's feets to put him out of his Susanoo and attack him after. Since he can block Amaterasu it's obvious he can do the same against katons. Gaara's has a way to counter all of Itachi's MS abilities. The big threat is the Totsuka blade but Gaara knows about it and I bet he'll just fly and keep out of Totsuka's range.


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

SharinganKisame said:


> Was Deidara shown to be able to do so? This could be a good move for sure.
> 
> Might Guy was able to take samehada from kisame with taijutsu, Gaara could use the sand just under kisame to send it as deep in the ground as he can. Yes samehada will absorb chakra while he does so but it won't be enough to stop the sand from sending him really deep underground. Once samehada is underground there won't be any chakra left to absorb because Gaara doesn't need chakra to keep samehada underground, he only need chakra while he buries it.



its manga knowledge for both parties right. if so kisame fuses from the start of battle. 
yes gai outdid kisame in cqc and took his sword. i forgot about that. 

kisame without his sword isnt defenseless though he can still GSB. gaara cant defend that at all. defending it will only make matters worse actually. so kisame wins with or without his sword. 

deidara really doesnt need to be shown being able to put a c4 mini clone on a c1 bird. no reason he cant do that. he was afterall standing on a c1 bird when he used c4 in every occasion. he has also used 3 different sizes of c4 and is quite versatile with them. 

@everyone else. gaara vs sasori. sasori should think this actually. iron sand will be blended into sand and make it slower, it will also magnetize normal sand and simply give sasori more sand. also normal sand blocking satetsu isnt a given at all


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## fior fior (Jan 26, 2014)

*Scenario 1*

Itachi, but only because it's a terrible match up for the Uchiha: Gaara has an absolute counter to every ability in Itachi's arsenal.


*Scenario 2*

Still Itachi, really. Everybody stronger than Itachi kills Gaara, anybody weaker gets put down.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

@Icegaze it is not manga knowledge for both parties but _full_ knowledge for gaara, none for the others. They only know he's the kazekage.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 26, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Gaara himself lacks any kind of counter against Amaterasu alone, though.



Not really, he has two counters actually. The first one is an automatic counter that he has with or without intel, this is Sand armour, which he wears in all battles. He can shead said sand armour. The second one is his Sand dome. In most fights he envelops himself in his sand dome, with intel he will do it at the very start. Oh and also he can obscure the opponents field of vision like he did with Sasuke.

Counter to Genjutsu: He can use the third eye as a counter to Genjutsu while he himself hides inside his sand dome. Tskoyomi will be a non-factor because of this. 

Counter to Susanoo: Other then the solid Defense against most of its weapons,p (bar Madaras Sword slash) he can pull people out of Susanoo and restrict its joints with sand so that it cannot protect its user. 

Counter to Obitos Kamui: He can constantly hit Obito with sand attacks for 5minutes without using up too much chakra. Also, his automatic sand layer of Defence would prevent Obito from using the phase through objects then Kamui the opponent because said layer of defence is basically touching his body, so Obito would end up Kamuing his automatic sand instead not to mention Gaara does not need to make seals to make a sand attack, making it that much harder for Obito to predict when to phase through attacks and when not to. 

Counter to Kakashi Kamui: Going high up in the air, blocking his field of vision, sand clones, constantly attacking Kakashi from a distance to prevent an accurate Kamui  and sand dome are all great counters to his Kamui. 

Gaara from the very beggining had a natural advantage to all MS Jutsu. PS comes with EMS and its basically the only thing that Gaara cannot counter ( at least Madaras PS) out of the Jutsu of the eyes. Gaara is also a perfect counter to all the Rinnengan paths, He basically has a natural advantage to all charactes with shiny eyes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 26, 2014)

genjutsu can be used before any 3rd eye shows up. 3rd eye is also linked to gaara brain. please read on it. if itachi genjtusu's the eye it will affect gaara. 

tskuyomi obviously can be used way before gaara turtles up and can still be used when gaara attempts to use 3rd eye to follow the battle while hiding. 
 tskuyomi is as fast as any other ocular jutsu. kamui amaterasu etc. 
he only need look at gaara before gaara turtles up and GG
gaara will have to be far away and be in the air from the start to not fall prey to it. 

also we have see v3 susanoo plow through gaara sand like its nothing. why on earth will itachi susanoo have more difficulty? 

also shukaku is a prime target for tskuyomi and can be controlled so even shukaku+gaara cant beat itachi. he can simply genjtusu shukaku into killing gaara. 

amaterasu can be countered however. kamui cannot at all be countered by sand armour i dont know where that idea came from especially obito kamui


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 26, 2014)

In a completely advantageous situation he can beat Pain/Itachi  .

Under normal circumstances his strongest will be sasori or Kakuzu though.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Jan 26, 2014)

_Can?_ Itachi, under the best circumstances possible.

_Would?_ Kakuzu or Sasori.


With Shukaku he might move up a bit depending on his cooperation with the beast.


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## Ersa (Jan 26, 2014)

Gaara has a much of a chance of beating Itachi as Hidan does at beating Ei. Without Shukaku he'd probably beat Kakuzu, with it he does indeed have a chance of beating Itachi, although if we're trying to buff our characters to win Edo Itachi curbstomps Gaara and Shukaku low difficulty at worst.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 26, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> genjutsu can be used before any 3rd eye shows up. 3rd eye is also linked to gaara brain. please read on it. if itachi genjtusu's the eye it will affect gaara.



Being able to use it on the eye is one thing, being able to find it is another. Itachi would not be able to find and then Genjutsu the eye in a battle with Gaara. 



> tskuyomi obviously can be used way before gaara turtles up and can still be used when gaara attempts to use 3rd eye to follow the battle while hiding.
> tskuyomi is as fast as any other ocular jutsu. kamui amaterasu etc.
> he only need look at gaara before gaara turtles up and GG
> gaara will have to be far away and be in the air from the start to not fall prey to it.



No, its the opposite, Gaara would have to look at his EYES for it to work. Which he won't seeing as how he has sand in his way all the time during battles. And again Itachi would not be able to FIND the third eye. 



> also we have see v3 susanoo plow through gaara sand like its nothing. why on earth will itachi susanoo have more difficulty?



Like I said, restrict its joins (it cannot do anything once he does) and take the person out, this is what he did to Madara, it would be no diffrently with Itachi. 



> also shukaku is a prime target for tskuyomi and can be controlled so even shukaku+gaara cant beat itachi. he can simply genjtusu shukaku into killing gaara.



And Gaara simply breaks him out of it? LoL both are long range fighters who have shown to fight side by side. If Itachi miraculously manages to get close enough to Shukaku to Genjutsu him while facing both Shukaku and Gaara, Gaara almost instantly breaks him out of it. 



> amaterasu can be countered however. kamui cannot at all be countered by sand armour i dont know where that idea came from especially obito kamui



I don't remember anyone saying sand armour blocking Kamui.........however I do remember saying his automatic defence being able to block Obito's.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 26, 2014)

Scenario 1:

Beats
Kakazu
Hidan
Deidara
Sasori
Konan

Undecided:
Kisame - Lower win percentage then Itachi. Still favor Gaara imo
Itachi - Better win percentage then kisame. Favor Itachi imo

Loses
Nagato(6 paths)
obito

Scenario 2:

Beats
kakazu
deidara
hidan
sasori
kisame
Itachi

50/50 
nagato(6 paths)

Loses
Obito


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 26, 2014)

Itachi would lose to Gaara period. I said Full knowledge for Gaara and as others mentioned he is a terrible matchup for MS.


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## Ersa (Jan 26, 2014)

Doesn't mean jackshit, Itachi has far superior feats and portrayal. Gaara being a good match-up only means it's not a stomp. Match-ups are only important when the two opponents are comparable tier-wise, Part I Lee counters Kisame but he'll never beat him.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Doesn't mean jackshit, Itachi has far superior feats and portrayal. Gaara being a good match-up only means it's not a stomp. Match-ups are only important when the two opponents are comparable tier-wise, Part I Lee counters Kisame but he'll never beat him.



No, Gaara can counter everything Itachi has in his arsenal, his portrayal does not mean jacks hit if he cannot harm Gaara.


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## ARGUS (Jan 26, 2014)

The strongest akatsuki member tha gaara can beat is sick itachi under favourable condiitions

Gaaras sand has been shown to be able to react to amaterasu,, and he is also a sensor 
furthermore Gaara has experience fighting uchiha seeing as he he wasnt caught in a genjutsu against 5 madaras in close/mid range combat,, Itachi also doesnt have legged susanoo,, allowing gaara to pull him out of it,,, having low stamina is one of the main reasons why sick itachi would lose against gaara since he would need his MS to compete,, 

THe only duo he beats is hidan and kakuzu


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 26, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Gaara has a much of a chance of beating Itachi as Hidan does at beating Ei. Without Shukaku he'd probably beat Kakuzu, with it he does indeed have a chance of beating Itachi, although if we're trying to buff our characters to win Edo Itachi curbstomps Gaara and Shukaku low difficulty at worst.



Itachi fanboys... Itachi fanboys everywhere


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## Turrin (Jan 26, 2014)

The best he could do in ether scenario is beat Edo Itachi, and that is because his abilities w/ Full knowledge can perfectly counter Itachi's abilities.


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## Kickflip Uzumaki (Jan 26, 2014)

He can beat every Akatsuki bar Nagato/Pein and Tobi. Him vs Kisame is 50/50 though. 

High Kage tier shinobi.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Being able to use it on the eye is one thing, being able to find it is another. Itachi would not be able to find and then Genjutsu the eye in a battle with Gaara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 tskuyomi cant be broken out of via partner method. he simply needs to mind fuck shukaku into thinking gaara is the enemy from there gaara looses. 

finding the 3rd eye might be difficult however you are forgetting that itachi can simply genjutsu by pointing his finger. also he has crows who can be on the look out for the obvious 3rd eye and genjtusu it. because it wont be difficult for itachi to know that gaara is turtled up yet is able to pin point his location accurately. He will find the eye and screw with it. 

gaara was only able to pull madara out of susanoo because the speed of his sand was increased thanks to onoki jutsu. Also V4 susanoo is more powerful. so wont be happening the same way.  lastly totsuka to shukaku and lol GG. 

Gaara overestimation going on here. itachi is sure to genjtusu him through his many means. 

1. crow clone
2. finger
3. crow simply flying up to gaara and using genjutsu 
4. eyes 

Doubt gaara counters all 4 methods through out the battle. 

But i am guessing we will never agree on this one.


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## KawaiiKyuubi (Jan 27, 2014)

Gaara in the desert with full knowledge can beat:

Itachi (3rd eye vs genjutsu, Suna no Yoroi for Amaterasu, rip Itachi out of Susano'o if it comes out)
Zetsu, both.
Sasori
Deidara (different situation from canon, nothing to distract Gaara + full knowledge)
Konan w/o Paper Ocean
Hidan (lolstomp)
Kakuzu (more times than not)

Can't be bothered with scenario 2.


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## Jizznificent (Jan 27, 2014)

current gaara at full power and health could beat almost all of them imo. but he would lose to a few of them more times then not.

nagato/pain and obito are out of the question though.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> tskuyomi cant be broken out of via partner method. he simply needs to mind fuck shukaku into thinking gaara is the enemy from there gaara looses.



 LOL what? Since when did Tskoyomi become Koto? And BTW its possible to break people out of Koto as well. Stop BSing dude, Itachi can't do that and all Genjutsu is breakable via partner method.  



> finding the 3rd eye might be difficult however you are forgetting that itachi can simply genjutsu by pointing his finger. also he has crows who can be on the look out for the obvious 3rd eye and genjtusu it. because it wont be difficult for itachi to know that gaara is turtled up yet is able to pin point his location accurately. He will find the eye and screw with it.



Its not as simply as pointing his finger, the opponent as to look at his finger for it to work. And his finger Genjutsu is fairly weak compared to his MS Genjutsu. Gaara would be covering the location in sand and the third eye Is a little ball of sand, Itachi is not finding it. 



> gaara was only able to pull madara out of susanoo because the speed of his sand was increased thanks to onoki jutsu. Also V4 susanoo is more powerful. so wont be happening the same way.  lastly totsuka to shukaku and lol GG.



No that does not matter, unless You could tell me what would have been different if Onoki did not lighten the sand. How powerful the Susanoo Is does not matter if it does not have legs, then the weakness from below can be exploited. Totsuka is not going to GG Shukaku who can turn his body into sand at will. He would seal a little portion of the sand it pierces. 



> Gaara overestimation going on here. itachi is sure to genjtusu him through his many means.
> 
> 1. crow clone
> 2. finger
> ...



No, no one who is not a Itachi wanker will. All of those get countered.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> LOL what? Since when did Tskoyomi become Koto? And BTW its possible to break people out of Koto as well. Stop BSing dude, Itachi can't do that and all Genjutsu is breakable via partner method.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 X10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
tskuyomi was stated to not be able to be broken via partner method as stated by kakashi very directly. itachi has tskuyomi sasuke does not. 
tskuyomi compresses the genjutsu and 72 hrs seem like seconds. thats tskuyomi we have also seen it been used to mind control someone to doing something he wouldnt usually do eg: SM kabuto . No shukaku can be mind raped into attackign gaara 

onoki made gaara sand faster. thats why that was possible. this was also very directly stated. but enjoy your fanfic. 

the rest of your post


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## Trojan (Jan 27, 2014)

Gaara can defeat

1- Zetsu.
2- Konan
3- Hidan
4- Kakuzu
5- Sasori
6- Deidara
7- Itachi. 

---
I don't see how the hell can he defeats Kisame! Kisame is Gaara's worst nightmare. 
Obviously, Gaara lose to Nagato & obito.


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## RedChidori (Jan 27, 2014)

Elia said:


> Gaara can defeat
> 
> 1- Zetsu.
> 2- Konan
> ...



I agree with Elia except with Gaara beating Itachi. We all know Itachi-Sama solos infinitely .


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

what i dont get with itachi vs gaara is why everyone assumes gaara can fly away and turtle up before itachi can cast genjutsu. it requires no movement he only need look at u with his already activated sharingan. You cannot look at a human being without looking at their face. your eyes cross unless you already makin an effort not to before you encounter said person. 

gaara first needs to know its itachi before doing any turtling up. to know its itachi he has to look at him in the face. right there genjutsu becomes possible. Unless you know of ninja who start non ambush fights without looking at each other or havin their eyes meet. 

Also we are all assuming gaara has knowledge of the fact that itachi can cast genjtusu through his crows. those crows can fly. so gaara being up in the sky doesnt make him immune to genjutsu. 

I do admit though that he is very well suited to fight itachi though. alot better equipped to fight itachi than he is to fight kisame.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 27, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> I agree with Elia except with Gaara beating Itachi. We all know Itachi-Sama solos infinitely .


You're joking right?


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 27, 2014)

RedChidori said:


> I agree with Elia except with Gaara beating Itachi. We all know Itachi-Sama solos infinitely .





Icegaze said:


> what i dont get with itachi vs gaara is why everyone assumes gaara can fly away and turtle up before itachi can cast genjutsu. it requires no movement he only need look at u with his already activated sharingan. You cannot look at a human being without looking at their face. your eyes cross unless you already makin an effort not to before you encounter said person.
> 
> gaara first needs to know its itachi before doing any turtling up. to know its itachi he has to look at him in the face. right there genjutsu becomes possible. Unless you know of ninja who start non ambush fights without looking at each other or havin their eyes meet.
> 
> Also we are all assuming gaara has knowledge of the fact that itachi can cast genjtusu through his crows. those crows can fly. so gaara being up in the sky doesnt make him immune to genjutsu.



Not necessarily, Guy found a way to fight an Uchiha by looking at his feet. Plus he doesn't have to look him directly in the eyes for him to know it's Itachi.


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## Federer (Jan 27, 2014)

I don't see how Gaara can beat Itachi, even with knowledge. 

Itachi is an analyzing type of shinobi who will quickly find how to counter Gaara's attacks. En he has Koto Amatsukami and Izanami at his disposal. Too many dangerous OHKO jutsu.

While Gaara might win a couple of scenario's, I'll bet my money on Itachi who should win against Gaara more often than not. 

Deidara seems like the strongest Akatsuki member Gaara can beat.

As for scenario 2: 

I don't see him beating any duo. Sasori + Deidara or Kakuzu + Hidan. His chances against them are the highest.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Not necessarily, Guy found a way to fight an Uchiha by looking at his feet. Plus he doesn't have to look him directly in the eyes for him to know it's Itachi.



a way that implies itachi can't force eye contact. also a way that only prevents sharingan genjutsu 
not finger genjutsu something gai has no knowledge of. 

am not saying genjutsu cant be avoided but for it to be dismissed so casually is wrong. The whole third eye thing especially. its connected to his optic nerve and in plain sight itachi will see it and toy with it.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> a way that implies itachi can't force eye contact. also a way that only prevents sharingan genjutsu
> not finger genjutsu something gai has no knowledge of.
> 
> am not saying genjutsu cant be avoided but for it to be dismissed so casually is wrong. The whole third eye thing especially. its connected to his optic nerve and in plain sight itachi will see it and toy with it.



When has it been shown that SICK Itachi can use finger jutsu? Gaara can also move his third eye around, this is Full Knowledge you know, meaning that Gaara will be extremely careful. Plus Gaara has never been caught in a genjustu ever. Current Gaara is out of his league


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> When has it been shown that SICK Itachi can use finger jutsu? Gaara can also move his third eye around, this is Full Knowledge you know, meaning that Gaara will be extremely careful. Plus Gaara has never been caught in a genjustu ever. Current Gaara is out of his league




the only time itachi used finger genjutsu he was sick.  again what a silly question. common!!! 
gaara has never fought a genjutsu user. madara doesnt rely on it like itachi and doesnt prefer it as a method of fighting itachi does and is famous for it. 

current gaara is out of his league only in your fanfic where he somehow cant use finger genjutsu cuz he is sick yet can use susanoo.  !!!!

yasaka will already be hard enough to defend against. single tomoe already punched through onoki and almost gaara defense. 

you might want to claim its madara's however no proof at all that at that level of power madara is far above itachi or sasuke. clearly at PS he is, hence the PS but when people think any susanoo version of madara >>>sasuke or itachi v4 they are kidding themselves. 

yasaka will do major damage to gaara. we already failed to effectively block  a v1 sword thrown at him.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 27, 2014)

to clear the Itachi vs Gaara debate: Itachi has no way to catch Gaara in a genjutsu since he knows about ALL his moves. The OP made it clear that Gaara has full knowledge while the enemy only knows about his rank. @icegaze who said Gaara had to look in Itachi's face to know it's him...wrong just wrong. Gaara can use his 3rd eye and look from afar and recognize Itachi instantly. He knows every way Itachi has to catch someone in a genjutsu and since he's a very intelligent fighter, he won't get caught in it. We can now say that Tsukoyomi is useless in this fight. What does Itachi have to harm gaara? Amaterasu, susanoo with totsuka blade, katons, explosive bunshins. If i'm not mistaken, Gaara has something called an ABSOLUTE DEFENSE right? Amaterasu is useless, katons are useless, explosive bunshins are useless. What's left? That totsuka blade. Yes this is extremely dangerous, but you need to touch the enemy with it. Gaara knows about that sword and with his ability to fly, he'll be able to dodge it no problemo. 

A sick Itachi is in no way capable to beat the fifth kazekage. Gaara is Itachi's nightmare.


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## Bonly (Jan 27, 2014)

SharinganKisame said:


> A sick Itachi is in no way capable to beat the fifth kazekage. Gaara is Itachi's nightmare.



In the manga Itachi has the capability to beat Gaara even if Gaara is "Itachi's nightmare" although Itachi likely won''t win in a thread made by Kazekage94 so I can agree with that.


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## Icegaze (Jan 27, 2014)

SharinganKisame said:


> to clear the Itachi vs Gaara debate: Itachi has no way to catch Gaara in a genjutsu since he knows about ALL his moves. The OP made it clear that Gaara has full knowledge while the enemy only knows about his rank. @icegaze who said Gaara had to look in Itachi's face to know it's him...wrong just wrong. Gaara can use his 3rd eye and look from afar and recognize Itachi instantly. He knows every way Itachi has to catch someone in a genjutsu and since he's a very intelligent fighter, he won't get caught in it. We can now say that Tsukoyomi is useless in this fight. What does Itachi have to harm gaara? Amaterasu, susanoo with totsuka blade, katons, explosive bunshins. If i'm not mistaken, Gaara has something called an ABSOLUTE DEFENSE right? Amaterasu is useless, katons are useless, explosive bunshins are useless. What's left? That totsuka blade. Yes this is extremely dangerous, but you need to touch the enemy with it. Gaara knows about that sword and with his ability to fly, he'll be able to dodge it no problemo.
> 
> A sick Itachi is in no way capable to beat the fifth kazekage. Gaara is Itachi's nightmare.



the only reason gaara will know to start with the 3rd eye at a distance is because he knows he is fighting itachi. 
OP never gave any stipulations implying the fighters knew who they were facing before they got to the battlefield. what you are implying is that gaara is already aware of who he is fighting. 
OP only gave full knowledge not omnipotence which will allow him to determine his enemy before the battle starts. the battle starts at the distance the OP gave with both enemies facing each other as all BD battles unless stated otherwise.

Yes gaara is a nightmare for itachi never stated otherwise. 

Yasaka will still cause a problem. its itachi strongest jutsu and 1 tomoe of v3 susanoo still put more than a dent in gaara and onoki defense. 
3 tomoe would be obviously stronger. unless you can somehow prove V3 madara susanoo so far exceed itachi susanoo. 
PS>>>>>any other version for obvious reasons but we cannot start implying that lower versions of madara susanoo is also much stronger 

on that note, good luck dodging yasaka. That thing moves as fast as susanoo arrow. which last i checked kakashi with all his speed and prediction said he had no other way to avoid it but to use kamui. 

gaara sand is also not that fast. jokey boy casually escaped it. and had to be tricked to be caught by it

v1 susanoo sword was thrown by at least 50m it still smacked gaara to the ground before anyone says gaara is too far away for itachi to use yasaka.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> the only time itachi used finger genjutsu he was sick.  again what a silly question. common!!!
> gaara has never fought a genjutsu user. madara doesnt rely on it like itachi and doesnt prefer it as a method of fighting itachi does and is famous for it.
> 
> current gaara is out of his league only in your fanfic where he somehow cant use finger genjutsu cuz he is sick yet can use susanoo.  !!!!
> ...


What makes you think Itachi's magatama is as powerful as Madaras? Can you show me when he uses finger jutsu in his sick state?


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 27, 2014)

Bonly said:


> In the manga Itachi has the capability to beat Gaara even if Gaara is "Itachi's nightmare" although Itachi likely won''t win in a thread made by Kazekage94 so I can agree with that.



Lol, you know me so well.


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## SharinganKisame (Jan 27, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> What makes you think Itachi's magatama is as powerful as Madaras? Can you show me when he uses finger jutsu in his sick state?



with his 30% clone when he fought against naruto and co


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 27, 2014)

Kisame destroys gaara easily no difficulty 
Deidara beat gaara without trying and with a low amount of clay people are going to claim oo gaara had to save the village that was inevitable if deidara drop the bomb on gaara he would've had to save himself. In a prepared fight deidara would have multiple of those and c4 ready gaara gets destroyed.
The best he's beating is sasori
Kakuzu can tank any move gaara pulls and can blast threw his sand like nothing


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 27, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> X10000000000000000000000000000000000000000000
> tskuyomi was stated to not be able to be broken via partner method as stated by kakashi very directly. itachi has tskuyomi sasuke does not.
> tskuyomi compresses the genjutsu and 72 hrs seem like seconds. thats tskuyomi we have also seen it been used to mind control someone to doing something he wouldnt usually do eg: SM kabuto . No shukaku can be mind raped into attackign gaara
> 
> ...



Where was this stated? Do you understand how Genjutsu works? If you did you would know that it is possible to counter ANY lasting Genjutsu with the partner method. The Tskoyomi that Itachi used on Kakashi was time manipulative, its works instantly which is why the partner method would not work however if he plans on using it to control Shukaku it will not be an instant Genjutsu, thus it can be broken by the partner method. 

I repeat, unless you can tell me HOW exactly making Gaara's sand lighter is the only reason he can take people out of Susanoo, you do not have an argument.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Where was this stated? Do you understand how Genjutsu works? If you did you would know that it is possible to counter ANY lasting Genjutsu with the partner method. The Tskoyomi that Itachi used on Kakashi was time manipulative, its works instantly which is why the partner method would not work however if he plans on using it to control Shukaku it will not be an instant Genjutsu, thus it can be broken by the partner method.
> 
> I repeat, unless you can tell me HOW exactly making Gaara's sand lighter is the only reason he can take people out of Susanoo, you do not have an argument.



lighter sand equal faster sand that is my argument 
the speed of the sand made it possible for gaara to pull madara out without being intercepted. 
at monarch you are difficult to beat in an argument 
but lets see if tskuyomi has mind fuck shukaku in a time compressed manner to see gaara as the enemy wouldnt that work? He doesnt need to consistently control him

Also how does gaara break shukaku out before BD spam and all other shukaku attacks?

as for the clown askign if itachi 3 tomoe yasaka is stronger than madara single sling shot yasaka. 
my reply no proof madara rib cage susanoo is weaker or stronger than itacih V4 susanoo but which one do you think is stronger?? an incomplete technique used by a stronger person or a complete technique used by a weaker one. 

also your logic that all MS techs used by madara are stronger is flawed. Madara has never been hailed as the best genjutsu user. despite having EMS. 

being overall much stronger doesnt mean every attack you have is stronger. 

Kazekage94 someone replied already in regards to finger genjutsu


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## Ersa (Jan 28, 2014)

Madara's regular beads broken through Onoki's Rock Golem and Gaara's Ultimate Defense. The chain link Yasaka Magatama Itachi used against Chibaku Tensei is stronger then the beaded version and he only has to bust Gaara's pissweak defense. Madara and Itachi's beaded YM showed similar explsoive power so a stronger linked version will easily bust half of what Maddy did.

Yasaka Magatama smashes through his defense, Itachi ribs Gaara out with a Susanoo limb and crushes him Danzo-style. Sick Itachi wins mid difficulty, Edo Itachi wins no difficulty, low difficulty if you give Gaara Shukaku.

I'm sorry but if ever think Kishimoto is drawing Gaara defeating Itachi in his manga then you clearly haven't seen his preference for certain characters. Namely he rarely off-panels the defeat of characters he likes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2014)

Also in regards to yasaka
why do people think that itachi cannot put more chakra into it like naruto did to FRS to make it much larger therefore stronger?

also we know yasaka is a chakra shiruken, no doubt itachi can manipulate it to have it change directions like madara did to his v1 susanoo sword. That would be hard to defend against. 

no he has no feats of doing that however its his chakra shiruken. we know sharingan allows shiruken manipulation of the highest level so this is hardly a stretch 

lastly as poster above stated 1 tomoe yasaka bested gaara defense. No reason to believe yasaka doesnt run through it and gaara


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Madara's regular beads broken through Onoki's Rock Golem and Gaara's Ultimate Defense. The chain link Yasaka Magatama Itachi used against Chibaku Tensei is stronger then the beaded version and he only has to bust Gaara's pissweak defense. Madara and Itachi's beaded YM showed similar explsoive power so a stronger linked version will easily bust half of what Maddy did.
> 
> Yasaka Magatama smashes through his defense, Itachi ribs Gaara out with a Susanoo limb and crushes him Danzo-style. Sick Itachi wins mid difficulty, Edo Itachi wins no difficulty, low difficulty if you give Gaara Shukaku.
> 
> I'm sorry but if ever think Kishimoto is drawing Gaara defeating Itachi in his manga then you clearly haven't seen his preference for certain characters. Namely he rarely off-panels the defeat of characters he likes.


No one said that. At the same time it's funny how you think one jutsu will decide the match. If you want to do that then Gaara spams Sand Tsunami (we all know that it doesn't take him any trouble to do it) Itachi gets the Kimmimaro treatment. It depends on who you are fighting and their strategies. Now if YOU believe Current Gaara can't beat Sick Itachi then you are gladly mistaken.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> No one said that. At the same time it's funny how you think one jutsu will decide the match. If you want to do that then Gaara spams Sand Tsunami (we all know that it doesn't take him any trouble to do it) Itachi gets the Kimmimaro treatment. It depends on who you are fighting and their strategies. Now if YOU believe Current Gaara can't beat Sick Itachi then you are gladly mistaken.



well yh i would agree itachi with compromised stamina shoudlnt be beating gaara. 
as to gaara giving itachi the kimimaro treatment its a good thing he has this convenient jutsu called susanoo. as we have seen has no trouble breakign through gaara's attacks and defenses as shown every time the 2 have faced 

- yasaka beads
- v3 susanoo breakign through gaara pyramid sand attack 
- V1 !!! susanoo sword smackign him to the ground
- V3 susanoo breakign his sand defense. 

Sorry to say but he has yet to show any decent feat against lower versions of susanoo. Who havent shown anything that itachi susanoo cant pull off. 

unless you think madara v3 susanoo>>itachi V4 susanoo. 

Yasaka will cause more problems for gaara than gaara sand will cause itachi. We all assume sand tsunami is spammable or easy to pull off. Well why didnt he attempt that 5 on 1 vs madara. Itachi only need pressure him to rely on his much faster and much more limited gourd sand to bully gaara. 

somethign that wont be hard for a susanoo user as seen gaara best sealing jutsu powered by shukaku sand didnt do jack shit to V3 susanoo. 

Also we have no proof gaara has better reactions that itachi who only means of avoiding susanoo arrow which have the same speed as yasaka was to kamui. if gaara isnt actively tryign to block an attack his automatic defense isnt all that impressive


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 28, 2014)

With these stipulations, he can definitely beat Zetsu(the regular white/black one), Konan, Hidan and Kakuzu.
He might also defeat Sasori.

He loses to Deidara like in canon.

Kisame defeats him, Itachi steamrolls him. So does Pain.

Pre Rinnegan Tobi can defeat him after a tough battle.


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2014)

why do people think gaara can beat sasori?
gaara only weapon  is sand sasori has the better sand. 

sasori iron sand can be used to slow down gaara sand to a crawl like gaara dad did with shukaku sand. 

also gaara would hardly be able to defend satetsu penetrative force. then lets not forget if the sand hits gaara sand it will magnetize it and become sasori weapon or are people ignoring that?

lastly satetsu kaihou would bully gaara and his defense. while gaara can try to crush sasori all he wants. if he doesnt crush sasori canister he will be wasting his time. 

also 100 puppets will give gaara alot of trouble it isnt as easy as saying sand tsunami. especially because before the 100 puppets come out gaara would have fought long and hard trying to get rid of the 3rd kazekage puppet. 

and by then sasori will know the limits of gaara power and go full pressure 100 puppets with focus. what people forget is sasori wasn't concentrating while controlling the 100 puppets, if he focuses on each and everyone of  them they will become alot more lethal  and gaara cant turtle up forever. 

sasori is cruelly underestimated on this forum. anyone of his 100 puppets could have poison gas. Because it wasnt used doesnt mean they dont have its a simple tool all puppet users are equipped with. 

I dont feel the need to make a gaara vs sasori thread apart from this one.  

but ill say if sasori starts with kazekage puppet manga knowledge on both sides against gaara without shukaku, sasori will win more times than not.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 28, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> well yh i would agree itachi with compromised stamina shoudlnt be beating gaara.
> as to gaara giving itachi the kimimaro treatment its a good thing he has this convenient jutsu called susanoo. as we have seen has no trouble breakign through gaara's attacks and defenses as shown every time the 2 have faced
> 
> - yasaka beads
> ...



As much as I would like to say ASK THE CREATOR I can't. Do not compare Itachi's Susanoo to Madara because Madara is on a different level. Next he probably had to think of the rest of the Kage, and he couldn't do whatever he wanted in that battle. 5 Madara clones vs 1 Gaara is pretty impressive if I may add

As someone said before Gaara can restrict the joints and pull him out of Susanoo

Susanoo doesnt mean you win. Gaara is more than able at doing different moves with his sand.

If you think Gaara's Tsunami(the one used on the previous kage) won't be able to stop Itachis Susanoo, then you might wanna think again. Even if that doesn't work Gaara can also sink him because he is open on the bottom. Gaara can use the diversion technique and grab Itachi from the bottom and crush him.

Yasaka M is probably his only chance. Gaara has blocked hits from Madaras Susanoo which is a great feat in dealing with the Susanoo. I believe Gaara would win more times than not. (EXCUSE THE SPELLING MISTAKES IM ON MY PHONE)


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## Bonly (Jan 28, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> why do people think gaara can beat sasori?
> gaara only weapon  is sand sasori has the better sand.



Because Gaara can troll Sasori and negate most of his arsenal.


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 28, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> lighter sand equal faster sand that is my argument
> the speed of the sand made it possible for gaara to pull madara out without being intercepted.



Indeed, but that does not nullify the possibility completely now does it.  



> but lets see if tskuyomi has mind fuck shukaku in a time compressed manner to see gaara as the enemy wouldnt that work? He doesnt need to consistently control him



If Gaara can Genjutsu Kai Shukaku, no type of controlling Genjutsu would work. All Genjutsu work in the same way, they all distrupt the flow of chakra in said persons brain. Mind controlling Genjutsu is lasting, the distruption in the brain will last for as long as the controller wants to control, and said distruption can be countered by Genjutsu Kai. 



> Also how does gaara break shukaku out before BD spam and all other shukaku attacks?



They stay next to each other battles, like this .



> also your logic that all MS techs used by madara are stronger is flawed. Madara has never been hailed as the best genjutsu user. despite having EMS.



Is this towards me? Because I never said this.


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## Jagger (Jan 28, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He loses to Deidara like in canon.


Except you need to remember certain factors from that fight:

1. Gaara was focused on protecting the village and not using any kind of jutsu that could potentially hurt the villagers. That, while fighting a S-ranked rogue shinobi can be a very difficult task, specially for someone whose attacks are based on crushing and pulverizing rather than completely eliminating like, for exampe, Naruto or Madara.

2. Deidara had C3 prepped and, believe it or not, it's a very useful weapon in battle.


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## Legendary Itachi (Jan 28, 2014)

I don't think Gaara w/o desert can defeat Sasori, they don't call Satetsu > Gaara sand for no reason but maybe that's just me. 

OT, for sure he can defeat Kakuzu, or even Deidara if he stops him before C4. 

Gaara has 0 chance against Itachi, that's not funny.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 28, 2014)

Jagger said:


> Except you need to remember certain factors from that fight:
> 
> 1. Gaara was focused on protecting the village and not using any kind of jutsu that could potentially hurt the villagers. That, while fighting a S-ranked rogue shinobi can be a very difficult task, specially for someone whose attacks are based on crushing and pulverizing rather than completely eliminating like, for exampe, Naruto or Madara.
> 
> 2. Deidara had C3 prepped and, believe it or not, it's a very useful weapon in battle.



1 - I think Deidara can still create a similar opening with c3 because Gaara'll still need to gather comparable amount of sand to protect himself.

2 - Deidara wasn't using c2 or c4 which believe it or not are very useful weapons in battle


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## Icegaze (Jan 28, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> As much as I would like to say ASK THE CREATOR I can't. Do not compare Itachi's Susanoo to Madara because Madara is on a different level. Next he probably had to think of the rest of the Kage, and he couldn't do whatever he wanted in that battle. 5 Madara clones vs 1 Gaara is pretty impressive if I may add
> 
> As someone said before Gaara can restrict the joints and pull him out of Susanoo
> 
> ...



@destiny monarch no that wasnt towards you it was towards kazekage94. who is frankly mistaken 

No proof that because madara is the better ninja his lower versions of susanoo are automatically better. madara is on a different level not his lower versions of susanoo compared to madara higher versions. 

best example minato was on an utterly different level to pre FRS naruto yet his rasengan was well beneath naruto odama rasengan. Right there i troll your way of thinking. 

being the much better ninja doesnt mean lower versions of the same technique will be automatically stronger. 

again 1 bead of yasaka from v3 susanoo punched through gaara defense i see no reason why 3 beads wont run through it. 

restricting susanoo joints is nice and all but itachi can simply deactivate susanoo to slip out of that hold. and then reactivate right after and keep it moving. 
funny how gaara utterly failed to restrict any susanoo joints even though he fought susanoo 3 times. 

@monarch lighter sand= faster sand which made the maneuver possible. it doesnt mean he cant do it without i get that however if his sand isnt fast enough it means it simply wont work

shukaku being next to gaara is more bad than good. it means surprise attack gaara isnt likely to dodge. how would gaara know shukaku is in genjutsu? when shukaku attacks him. from that close distance will be hard to intercept shukaku hits. 

once gaara is forced to defend and distance himself it becomes shukaku+itachi and they steam roll gaara haaaard.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 28, 2014)

@icegaze if you are talking about Sick Itachi vs Gaara and Shukaku I just don't understand you. You're powerscaling. 

If Gaara and the Shukaku gives Itachi everything they have they will most likely win. Hell Current Gaara can win by himself. I don't understand why you don't see that.
Uchihas can be defeated you know.  Genjutsu doesn't decide the match and Susanoo doesn't either especially towards Gaara and his techniques. 

Lol we discussed about 5 different battles in this thread.


----------



## fior fior (Jan 28, 2014)

Lawrence777 said:
			
		

> In a completely advantageous situation he can beat *Pain*/Itachi .


What the fuck is Pain doing there?
Putting those two on the same level is like saying 'he can beat Sakura/ SM prime Hashirama'.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 28, 2014)

people seriously comparing Madara and Itachis abilities 

I could see if they were relatively close in power...apples to oranges


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## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2014)

I'd make the point of plainly saying  I don't view Nagato/Pain as powerfully as some others do. I don't interpret Nagato as being capable of  soloing the gokage 5v1 or fighting evenly with EMS Madara or fighting on par with Obito's six jinnchuriki paths or soloing half of akatsuki together at the same time. He's really powerful but I don't see him as powerfully as some, so that naturally pushes Pain, whom is weaker as per Naruto's words, down on my scale also to compensate.

That all being said, I  view Pain as being substantially more powerful than Itachi. 
Itachi for his part  is also substantially more powerful than the next best Akatsuki though(whether that next best be Deidara or Kisame). 

If I have to split up the akatsuki by strength, I'd sooner put Itachi w/ Pain, than place Itachi with the next batch of akatsuki, as I believe the gap between Itachi and Pain to be smaller than the gap between Itachi and the next best akatsuki.


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## Ersa (Jan 28, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> No one said that. At the same time it's funny how you think one jutsu will decide the match. If you want to do that then Gaara spams Sand Tsunami (we all know that it doesn't take him any trouble to do it) Itachi gets the Kimmimaro treatment. It depends on who you are fighting and their strategies. Now if YOU believe Current Gaara can't beat Sick Itachi then you are gladly mistaken.


I like how can't refute anything in my post 

What the hell is Sand Tsunami going to do? Itachi feints with a clone, something SM Kabuto couldn't pick up who is far far superior to Gaara then backs away. He then blindsides Gaara with his far superior speed, Yasaka Magatama's chain link version busts Gaara's Ultimate Defense (considering a vastly weaker beaded version already busted Onoki + Gaara's defense) and Itachi ribs him out with Susanoo and crushes him.

Itachi is faster, more intelligent, has far higher portrayal, can easily break through anything Gaara has defense-wise and can finish him despite a stamina disadvantage.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 28, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> I like how can't refute anything in my post
> 
> What the hell is Sand Tsunami going to do? Itachi feints with a clone, something SM Kabuto couldn't pick up who is far far superior to Gaara then backs away. He then blindsides Gaara with his far superior speed, Yasaka Magatama's chain link version busts Gaara's Ultimate Defense (considering a vastly weaker beaded version already busted Onoki + Gaara's defense) and Itachi ribs him out with Susanoo and crushes him.
> 
> Itachi is faster, more intelligent, has far higher portrayal, can easily break through anything Gaara has defense-wise and can finish him despite a stamina disadvantage.



Gaara can deal with fast characters. Sand Tsunami bombards Susanoo. Gaara has clones as well.
Itachi is this Itachi is that. Kimimaro was faster and stronger yet he lost so that means jack-shit. Gaara can grab him immediately using the diversion technique. Not to mention Gaara can fly and dodge Yasaka Magatama and use his sand ball to defend from explosions.


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## Ersa (Jan 28, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara can deal with fast characters. Sand Tsunami bombards Susanoo. Gaara has clones as well.
> Itachi is this Itachi is that. Kimimaro was faster and stronger yet he lost so that means jack-shit. Gaara can grab him immediately using the diversion technique. Not to mention Gaara can fly and dodge Yasaka Magatama and use his sand ball to defend from explosions.


V4 Susanoo digs out, Kimimaro almost did it and he doesn't have the strength to literally juice Kage level shinobi in the palm of his hands. Also that was a dying, sick Kimimaro whose strength is low compared to a healthy Kimimaro. 

The actual fuck? Itachi is way faster then Kimimaro, they're not even in the same league. And that Kimimaro was on his literal death-bed and would've still killed Gaara despite that. Diversion technique working on one of most tactical and intelligent fighters in the series, please try harder 

Sand ball is weaker then Gaara's Mom Defense which Itachi can easily bust with his Yasaka Magatama which he can make 3-4x bigger then Madara's by feats (want manga panels? ). Itachi kills him before he gets into the air.


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> people seriously comparing Madara and Itachis abilities
> 
> I could see if they were relatively close in power...apples to oranges



 X100000000000000000000000000000
minato who is >>>>>>>>> pre FRS naruto 
does that mean that minato rasengan >>>>>>>naruto odama rasengan?? because all feats speak to the contrary 
so why are people foolishly assuming that because 
madara>>>>>itachi that madara single bead yasaka>>>>>>itachi 3 bead yasaka?? thats just dumb 

also itachi and shunsui are better at genjutsu than madara so suck on that. '

@kazekage94 i am not saying genjutsu is an automatic win in any sense but we have sense susanoo pulverize gaara sand on each and every occasion i dont see why itachi v4 susanoo will be any less efficient. 

also if it was soooo easy for gaara to fly 10 miles high and sand tsunami or attack from so far away why was he gettign smacked to shits by V3 susanoo. He could easily have stayed away from their reach yet didnt.

what you fail to understand is that the further away he is from the enemy the more time the enemy has to dodge his attacks. Also itachi can make bunshin and diversions while the real one analyzes gaara response people assume itachi is just going to be as dumb as sasuke who will only try and power through itachi doesnt work that way 

current gaara will still struggle to beat sasori, so stating he is above itachi sick or not is folly

things to note. 

1. gaara sand armor takes massive amounts of chakra for him to maintain. So no gaara isnt completely immune to amaterasu. itachi can still use it to force him to shed and recreate his sand armor thus gaara will be wasting some portion of his chakra on that. So will itachi by the way but at least we cant just ignore amaterasu in this match. 
2. why are we assuming itacih can't use exploding bunshin and crow clones to have gaara waste energy. we have seen clones as a diversionary tactic work on a completely open field. gaara did have jokey boy run into a clone. i dont see why itachi cant use crows to obscure gaara vision, then have crow clones do the fighting for him while looks for an opening. 
3. gaara will be spending alot more chakra than itachi if tactic 2 is used. also we are forgetting itachi footspeed which isnt beneath jokey boy's unless there is panel evidence to suggest it. so gaara will have difficulties tagging itachi 
4. turtled up or not gaara isnt immune to a crow flying to his face and casting genjtusu on him especially if itachi combines that with a diversion from yasaka or any of his other attacks. it will be similar to what deidara did with c3 and his c1 bird. 
5. we have seen gaara sand quite often be overpowered. kimimaro, v3 susanoo
6. we have seen gaara sand be blitzed past and avoided: jokey boy, kimimaro- jokey boy speed is inferior to susanoo and itachi speed
7. we have seen gaara sand defense be broken. yasaka 1 bead. 
8. susanoo reach is more impressive than people give it credit for. if itachi decided to shushin with susanoo 4 from the get go i doubt gaara is getting away from that. totsuka blade has ridiculous reach and also seems to be very fast at hitting its targets. no suprirses though danzo stated that susanoo is super fast. so did kakashi. And we have panels to support susanoo speed. 

so no gaara isnt some perfect counter to itachi in anyway shape or form.


Gaara cannot even beat kakuzu. Full knowledge is useful though 
gaara cannot crush kakuzu thanks to domu and gaara will have an awful time tryign to fight against 4 hearts each blasting him with elements. kakuzu earth masks is no doubt strong and will be hard to crush thanks to domu. Gian is sure to go through gaara sand defense like butter. we have seen gaara defense not amount to much against chidori granted gaara is much stronger now but gian is also much stronger than chidori. gaara will have trouble fighting against multiple enemies. Also kakuzu could easily avoid being crushed to death by moving his heart to his limbs and extending his arm underground every time gaara tries to crush kakuzu body.   Gaara would also find it hard to focus on kakuzu when there are hearts flying around him and a domu heart that will no doubt be powering through his sand. domu is what makes kakuzu super strong. 

Gaara vs sasori (full abilities not kishi botched up cannon sasori) sasori with his 100 puppets where any of them could have poison canisters is bound to be troublesome for gaara. also 3rd kazekage satetsu which will come out before hand could be a good counter to gaara sand. I believe the iron sand will magnetize gaara sand. 

gaara vs deidara on a c2 bird while prepping c4. hmm gaara will suffer on this one full knowledge on deidara abilities doesnt mean he will be able to distinguish a c4 from a c1 bomb. deidara can make c4 and c1 in his exact image. Both look the same but have to be defended against very differently. 
1 must remember that in canon gaara was fighting in a desert while trying to protect his village however deidara had very limited clay. 

kisame vs gaara is obvious same way hidan vs gaara is obvious. the winner of both battles is as clear as day. 

gaara at best can pull a win against sasori maybe and surely gaara beats konan.


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> X100000000000000000000000000000
> minato who is >>>>>>>>> pre FRS naruto
> does that mean that minato rasengan >>>>>>>naruto odama rasengan?? because all feats speak to the contrary
> so why are people foolishly assuming that because
> ...



Get that retarded logic out of here

How can you claim that Itachis 3 bead magatoma is as powerful or near as powerful as Madaras single magatama? Your claim would just be as foolish as the other sides since there is no evidence of its destructive power.

Itachi may use genjutsu more so in his fighting style then Madara however I hate to burst your bubble but Madara feat in controlling the kyuubi is superior then anything Itachi has shown


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Get that retarded logic out of here
> 
> How can you claim that Itachis 3 bead magatoma is as powerful or near as powerful as Madaras single magatama? Your claim would just be as foolish as the other sides since there is no evidence of its destructive power.
> 
> Itachi may use genjutsu more so in his fighting style then Madara however I hate to burst your bubble but Madara feat in controlling the kyuubi is superior then anything Itachi has shown



your logic is far more stupid!!!
so you must agree then that minato rasengan>>>>naruto odama rasengan because minato>>>naruto before he got FRS?? thats sooo much more stupid. and nothing in the manga supports it. while my claim has way more support 
eg: naruto odama did more damage than minato rasengan despite minato being far superior 

sasuke supressed kyuubi with sharingan. hardly a beastly feat to control kyuubi. but yh sure am the one with the busted bubble 

itachi was thought to be controlling the alliance into killign themselves the same was never thought of madara but yh suuuuuure madara who has never been claimed to be the best at genjutsu is somehow better than itachi at it. 

nothign absolutely nothing in the manga suggested that being overall better makes u better at each individual aspect. gai is leaps and bounds stronger than genin sasuke it doesnt make gai better at ninjutsu 

 to you...


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 29, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> V4 Susanoo digs out, Kimimaro almost did it and he doesn't have the strength to literally juice Kage level shinobi in the palm of his hands. Also that was a dying, sick Kimimaro whose strength is low compared to a healthy Kimimaro.
> 
> The actual fuck? Itachi is way faster then Kimimaro, they're not even in the same league. And that Kimimaro was on his literal death-bed and would've still killed Gaara despite that. Diversion technique working on one of most tactical and intelligent fighters in the series, please try harder
> 
> Sand ball is weaker then Gaara's Mom Defense which Itachi can easily bust with his Yasaka Magatama which he can make 3-4x bigger then Madara's by feats (want manga panels? ). Itachi kills him before he gets into the air.



Did you not see the distance and knowledge? Why would he use that first? To add, this is CURRENT GAARA WHO'S SAND WAS ABLE TO REACT TO AMATERASU.  You act like Gaara isnt intelligent or tactical. If that's all you think that decides the battle then Shikamaru would beat Gaara but I don't plan on that happening either. 
Newsflash dude Current Gaara is way better than SRA Gaara and with the assistance of Shukaku that is just too much for Sick Itachi to handle.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> X100000000000000000000000000000
> minato who is >>>>>>>>> pre FRS naruto
> does that mean that minato rasengan >>>>>>>naruto odama rasengan?? because all feats speak to the contrary
> so why are people foolishly assuming that because
> ...



I'm not going to address some of your problems. He loses due to inferior stamina. As soon he gets in the air the battle is over. Remember that Madara was enhanced by Kabuto so his attacks would be stronger. 

Sand restricts puppets joints. Sasori is screwed. 

In the Deidara vs Gaara fight idk why you think just because he lost means he's weaker than others considering what he had to do as Kazekage. Gaara would never allow him to prep C4 and why would he resort to using C4 he was unprepared the first time who is to say he won't be again? Deidara has no knowledge while Gaara has full. The battle would be the same  Deidara vs Gaara (in Suna) vs Current Gaara with better feats. We all know he would lose. There is no convincing you.


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I'm not going to address some of your problems. He loses due to inferior stamina. As soon he gets in the air the battle is over. Remember that Madara was enhanced by Kabuto so his attacks would be stronger.
> 
> Sand restricts puppets joints. Sasori is screwed.
> 
> In the Deidara vs Gaara fight idk why you think just because he lost means he's weaker than others considering what he had to do as Kazekage. Gaara would never allow him to prep C4 and why would he resort to using C4 he was unprepared the first time who is to say he won't be again? Deidara has no knowledge while Gaara has full. The battle would be the same  Deidara vs Gaara (in Suna) vs Current Gaara with better feats. We all know he would lose. There is no convincing you.



apparently there is no convincing me especially when madara speciffically said kabuto did not create the power he is using. he said that right before he dropped his meteors but yh ignore that and somehow say kabuto made madara attacks stronger like EMS madara couldnt waltz through gaara sand. 

satetsu >suna gaara is screwed. 

i never said because gaara lost to deidara he is weaker. However deidara wasnt even fully prepped yet still won. allow deidara to prep c4? looool he certainly didnt stop deidara from prepping c3. deidara used c4 against sasuke twice i didnt see sasuke being able to stop him despite seeing the technique used the first time. he still got attacked by it the second time

sorry give me 1 example of better feats by current gaara compared to the gaara that fought deidara. give me just 1. He certainly isnt usign more sand. all that has changed is he isnt using shukaku lookign techniques. thats it.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 29, 2014)

@icegaze. Nice try buddy (Daruis voice)


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

@kazekage94 haters gonna hate. like how you fail to refute my point. 
brilliant post. 
madara clearly said kabuto didnt make him stronger. but yh sure go on believing that and implying that it means itachi susanoo cant waltz through gaara sand 
because by your logic madara v3 susanoo>>>>>itachi susanoo right 
because if they are even remotely equal itachi waltz through gaara sand and murders him


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 29, 2014)

> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > your logic is far more stupid!!!
> ...


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> > More stupid...haha
> >
> > I will go with manga evidence over your way of looking at things
> >
> ...


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> please show me panels to support the last part of your ridiculous post.



I do not need to show you proof that such shinobi such as Madara and Hashirama are freakisly skilled in all aspects. This should be common sense



> i gave you clear examples with minato and pre frs naruto rasengan's which you didnt refute. isnt minato leaps and bounds stronger than pre frs naruto??



I didnt refute because its a retarded statement. Once again this is common sense



> no manga evidence like you call it supports madara single bead magmata being more powerful than itachi's do you know why silly child?? because the 2 never faced the same defenses. how on earth can you use panels to compare them in the first place???



I never recall saying that Madaras single bead magatama is superior to Itachis combined attack. My point was simply to say that being a strung together attack does not mean its AUTOMATICALLY stronger since we lack manga evidence



> if nikute slices half a mountain due to its limited range and FRS breaks apart a range of mountains would that mean that FRS has higher cutting power?? because we actually have manga panels to the contrary. yet FRS will have no issues going over 2-3 mountains while nikute at best will cut 1.



This makes no sense. Naruto can THROW FRS so it would obviously travel further then nikute while nukite can be used in close combat or has the ability to have a limited amount of range such as cutting off the tenticles of the hachibi




> nothing was stated or indicated to say madara single bead is stronger than itachi 3 bead magmata. same way only an idiot would think madara rib cage susanoo >>>itachi v4 susanoo because that is the bulk sum of ur argument. its madara anything he does must be superior



That is not even my point lol

And you have no evidence to suggest his three bead magmata is as strong as Madars single attack since we lack manga evidence 

Obviously Madaras rib cage susanno would be weaker then Itachis final form however as many people stated out that Madaras versions of the same stage have much more impressive feats



> hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>itachi yet itachi is much better at genjutsu. doesnt mean hashirama cant defend against it.



Hashirama faught again Madara uchicha whos one feat of controlling the kyuubi is more impressive then anything has ever shown.  He also faught in a wars against the uchiha so your claiming he can't defend against Itachi "special" genjutsu....cmon

Itachi is obviously very skilled in genjutsu and one of the best in the catergory but is not the "king" by any means when it comes to power. 



> as to the kyuubi argument hebi sasuke suppressed it he is hardly a god. obito controlled it with ease he is hardly a god.



Sasuke is one of the two main characters. Hes obviously going to be a "god" at the end of the manga and will get hype as the series progress



> as to the first 3 they are but obito and sasuke clearly arent. so i have no idea why you think itachi would somehow find it difficult to do the same. since when was sasuke better at genjtusu than itachi??? so yes it is hardly a beastly feat to control kyuubi obito at 16 was doing it. while fighting minato somewhere else. you knwo the same obito who got trolled hard by minato who soo isnt a god.



Obito is vastly stronger then Itachi and has hashi dna which should help him control or supress the kyuubi. Sasuke like Obito has better potential in his eyes

Obito is one of the strongest shinobi we have seen thus far in the manga lol. Minato had a very impressive feat that day since his FTG and speed counter Obitos Kumai however is Minato superior then obito overall? Nope



> but yh sure you got some solid arguments there not supported by anything in the manga at all.
> complete ownage logic its madara he can taijutsu itachi v4 susanoo. i have no doubt ull come up with that



My logic is backed with manga logic not some fantasy a>b>c logic that applies to your twisted points


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

ok complete ownage.  

doesnt refute my points but caries on. so in that spirit of things you win. 


to anyone else gaara still aint beating itachi.


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## Kazekage94 (Jan 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> @kazekage94 haters gonna hate. like how you fail to refute my point.
> brilliant post.
> madara clearly said kabuto didnt make him stronger. but yh sure go on believing that and implying that it means itachi susanoo cant waltz through gaara sand
> because by your logic madara v3 susanoo>>>>>itachi susanoo right
> because if they are even remotely equal itachi waltz through gaara sand and murders him



I was referring to his new abilities after death dude. I said nice try. It was shown that Gaara blocked Susanoo hits and others he was pushed aside but it didn't completely penetrate it or he would have been sliced. Against Itachi s V4 all he had to do is lift the sand up from the bottom since he has the locational advantage. Or sink Itachi from below. Lets pretend that Gaara didn't acquire feats from fighting Madara.


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## Icegaze (Jan 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> I was referring to his new abilities after death dude. I said nice try. It was shown that Gaara blocked Susanoo hits and others he was pushed aside but it didn't completely penetrate it or he would have been sliced. Against Itachi s V4 all he had to do is lift the sand up from the bottom since he has the locational advantage. Or sink Itachi from below. Lets pretend that Gaara didn't acquire feats from fighting Madara.



am not saying he didnt acquire feats am saying no proof he couldnt have faired just as well against madara at the level he fought deidara. 

yes gaara could just as easily sink itachi never disputed that btw. but why do you think itachi wont sink with his susanoo?? would he just decide to leave it behind.  if we are saying gaara will make the quick sand only big enough to fit itachi then susanoo which is outside the quick sand range can just reach in and grab itachi therefore the susanoo would have to be held in place then gaara at the same time would have to be sinking itachi for that to work. 

seeing that v3 susanoo has the feats of pulverizing though gaara sand i dont see that happening

gaara acquired feats against madara but so did susanoo against gaara sand. lets not forget that either. 

susanoo is the users chakra attempting to sink just itachi is clearly not happening. unless susanoo is held in place. which as shown by gaara himself isnt as easy. his sand by itself isnt fast enough hence why onoki made it lighter and faster. 

gaara normal sand speed can be waltz through by jokey boy. which was even called super fast , susanoo has been stated as superfast. kakashi needed kamui to avoid its arrow. 
SM kabuto despite SM sensing still got hit by 1 of those arrows with a distraction but still dam impressive. 
sasuke was actually shocked out of his mind that kabuto avoided his arrow the first time thats to tell you it isnt the slowest of moves. 

so to sink itachi gaara sand would need to be faster than itachi susanoo, hold it in place, therefore stronger than susanoo as well. then gaara willl need to 

attempt sinking itachi at the same time. yeeeeah!!! easy peasy 

all the while gaara is avoiding yasaka which have the same speed as susanoo arrows which kakashi despite sharingan said he couldnt physically get out of the way and danzo flat out said he cant even dodge it at all. danzo didnt have time to perform handseals before it reached him


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 29, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> No proof that because madara is the better ninja his lower versions of susanoo are automatically better. madara is on a different level not his lower versions of susanoo compared to madara higher versions.



Madaras Ribcage Susanoo>Itachis Ribcage Susanoo and/or Sasukes Rib cage Susanoo. Do you disagree? 



> best example minato was on an utterly different level to pre FRS naruto yet his rasengan was well beneath naruto odama rasengan. Right there i troll your way of thinking.



No you don't, going off of my logic, Minatos regular rasengan>Narutos regular rasengan. Which is in fact true. 



> restricting susanoo joints is nice and all but itachi can simply deactivate susanoo to slip out of that hold. and then reactivate right after and keep it moving.
> funny how gaara utterly failed to restrict any susanoo joints even though he fought susanoo 3 times


. 

He deactivates Susanoo, he gets caught by Gaara's Sand, Susanoo won't be able to save him anymore. Gaara did not utterly fail, he did restrict his joints once. 



> @monarch lighter sand= faster sand which made the maneuver possible. it doesnt mean he cant do it without i get that however if his sand isnt fast enough it means it simply wont work



It CAN work, it is possible it won't, but it is possible it can. With lighter sand, it WILL work, its not possible it won't, see the diffrence. 



> shukaku being next to gaara is more bad than good. it means surprise attack gaara isnt likely to dodge. how would gaara know shukaku is in genjutsu? when shukaku attacks him. from that close distance will be hard to intercept shukaku hits.



Because Shukaku's eyes will turn into the Sharingan before he gets completely controlled. And even then, Shukaku can out up some form of resistance to the Genjutsu, just like Naruto did to Itachis lower forms.


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## asstonine (Jan 29, 2014)

Kazekage94 said:


> The Title Says it All
> 
> Location: Open Field
> Distance: 50 Meters
> ...



He can beat everyone except, Obito & Pain.



Icegaze said:


> ok complete ownage.
> 
> doesnt refute my points but caries on. so in that spirit of things you win.
> 
> ...



A sickly itachi? Are you kidding?  Gaara would rape him!  Less than low difficulty. 
He could build a fucking sand castle, and take a nap inside, and Itachi would kill himself trying to break in FFS.


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## Icegaze (Jan 30, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Madaras Ribcage Susanoo>Itachis Ribcage Susanoo and/or Sasukes Rib cage Susanoo. Do you disagree?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i most certainly do not disagree with your first point. for sure anyone knows madara rib cage>itachi or sasuke rib cage. 
yes minato regular rasengan>>naruto's 
however the point i was making is that 1 bead yasaka cannot be compared to 3 beads since 3 beads is a more advanced form of it. same way naruto odama rasengan>>minato rasengan because odama is a more advanced version of it. 
yes madara 1 bead to itachi 1 bead madara's stronger but madara 1 bead to itachi 3 bead i dont think so 

as to shukaku resisting genjutsu its possible. but orochimaru,kakashi, sasuke, naruto, deidara didnt seem to put up much of a fight against itachi genjtusu why would shukaku be different?
especially when sasuke with just sharingan surpressed the kyuubi and controlled madara his genjutsu skill pales in comparison to itachi's so itachi controllign shukaku is a walk in the park. 

also for gaara to notice his eyes turning to sharingan. gaara would have to be looking at them and would have no reason to till he gets attacked. its not like gaara and shukaku look at each other while fighting a common enemy 

true if he deactivates susanoo he gets caught by the sand but then he can reactivate susanoo behind him and have it drag him out. something perfectly feasible


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## Destiny Monarch (Jan 30, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> as to shukaku resisting genjutsu its possible. but orochimaru,kakashi, sasuke, naruto, deidara didnt seem to put up much of a fight against itachi genjtusu why would shukaku be different?
> especially when sasuke with just sharingan surpressed the kyuubi and controlled madara his genjutsu skill pales in comparison to itachi's so itachi controllign shukaku is a walk in the park.



Actually Naruto did put up a fight, Itachi complemented him on it himself. Kakashi fell prey to Tskoyomi, it was unavoidable at the time. Deidara is fodder against Genjutsu, he constantly gets fooled by it and so does Orochimaru. Danzo was referring to Itachis Tskoyomi, which is not mind control. 



> also for gaara to notice his eyes turning to sharingan. gaara would have to be looking at them and would have no reason to till he gets attacked. its not like gaara and shukaku look at each other while fighting a common enemy



Itachis gotta get close to perform the controlling Genjutsu, Gaara will be looking at him and if he is in front of Shukaku he will notice Shukaku is being out into a Genjutsu. 



> true if he deactivates susanoo he gets caught by the sand but then he can reactivate susanoo behind him and have it drag him out. something perfectly feasible



Or he gets distracted somehow, Gaara takes him by the feet and whips him out of Susanoo and GG Bijudama style.


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## Blu-ray (Jan 30, 2014)

Under normal circumstances, I'd say Deidara. He probably would have beaten Deidara in canon if he didn't attack the village.

For scenario 2, I say Itachi. With full knowledge, he can block line of sight with his sand, stopping both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and since Itachi's Amaterasu has a significant charge time, he could do it before Itachi fires. Sand sensing means he wouldn't need to even see Itachi. He could also fly out of range of Totsuka and Yasaka Magatama. He might not be able to pull Itachi out of Susano'o since he needed Onoki for that for some reason, but he would just outlast Itachi from there.


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## asstonine (Jan 30, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Under normal circumstances, I'd say Deidara. He probably would have beaten Deidara in canon if he didn't attack the village.
> 
> For scenario 2, I say Itachi. With full knowledge, he can block line of sight with his sand, stopping both Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi, and since Itachi's Amaterasu has a significant charge time, he could do it before Itachi fires. Sand sensing means he wouldn't need to even see Itachi. He could also fly out of range of Totsuka and Yasaka Magatama. He might not be able to pull Itachi out of Susano'o since he needed Onoki for that for some reason, but he would just outlast Itachi from there.



He could easily toss him out of Susanoo, or just bury the whole damn thing.  

Seriously, Gaara easily stomps a sickly Itachi, even an edo itachi would be mid difficulty at best.

Gaara is high kage tier.
Itachi is low kage when he is sick.


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## Veo (Feb 2, 2014)

He can defeat anyone 1 v 1 except Obito and Nagato.

Kisame, Itachi and Kakuzu would be hard, tho, and could go either way.


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2014)

Destiny Monarch said:


> Actually Naruto did put up a fight, Itachi complemented him on it himself. Kakashi fell prey to Tskoyomi, it was unavoidable at the time. Deidara is fodder against Genjutsu, he constantly gets fooled by it and so does Orochimaru. Danzo was referring to Itachis Tskoyomi, which is not mind control.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



you will notice your argument to him getting dragged in by quick sand is to get "distracted somehow" that argument holds no water at all 

-itachi doesnt need to get close to perform mind controlling genjtusu, he did it on the fodder chick in part 1 he was no where to be seen. 
- shikamaru dad thought he was doin it just outside the sensors range which is ridiculously far
- time compressed tskuyomi is still unavoidable and cant be countered
- deidara is far from fodder at genjutsu he actually saw through sasuke's thats much much more than we can say for most characters who have fallen helplessly prey to genjutsu 

not saying its an easy battle here but people just like to remember the feats that make gaara look good while forget the premise we all seem to agree on. V4 susanoo> v3 susanoo so if gaara had so much difficulty against v3 even with shukaku help i have no reason to think v4 wont be hell on earth for gaara


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## asstonine (Feb 4, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> -itachi doesnt need to get close to perform mind controlling genjtusu, he did it on the fodder chick in part 1 he was no where to be seen.
> - shikamaru dad thought he was doin it just outside the sensors range which is ridiculously far
> - time compressed tskuyomi is still unavoidable and cant be countered
> - deidara is far from fodder at genjutsu he actually saw through sasuke's thats much much more than we can say for most characters who have fallen helplessly prey to genjutsu
> ...



1) That wasn't even a ninja!  Just some citizen!
2) He was trying to come up with ANYTHING, regardless of how crazy it was, to explain what was happening!  
3) Line of sight.
4) Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi

If someone gets wanked around here, it clearly isn't Gaara.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 4, 2014)

Pain/Itachi

By feats, at this long range, Gaara would have to screw up.

Itachi would get swamped by a sand Tsunami, and throw up Susanto.  But Gaara's repeatedly shown he can make the sand floor bind up kages, and he threw Madara out of his Susano because he was standing on sand, and so that ends him.  Itachi obviously can't dodge a desert for very long normal ways, and sand shield has blocked ameterasu before.  Setting a bunch of the desert on fire is a stupid idea, because then Gaara will have black fire sand to throw at Itachi.  Shuriken and normal katons aren't going to cut it, and neither are suitons.  I guess he could screw up and stare into his eyes at match start or something, or just not crush Itachi when he grabs him, or Itachi could try the totsuga GG strategy which may work, only Itachi would need knowledge to do that at match start.  But aside from that he holds a really strong advantage.  ... looking back at the stipulations, Gaara gets his bijuu, so he has a partner to break genjutsu and give him and even greater stamina advantage.  Great.

Pain gets a similar bad rap.  Most of the bodies don't have a defence or anywhere to go but onto more sand, and he can just grab their feet and crush them.  Or keep trying until he does succeed.  I used to think Preta Path could suck the chakra out of his sand, but Madara couldn't use Preta on Gaara's sand for some reason, and it was a plot point, so Preta shouldn't be able to do it either.  Gaara also has sealing tags to deal with the cerebus and anything else that won't die.  Asura is tough, but he got smashed by big fists, and even though that didn't put him down totally, I imagine tidal waves of sand and a super sand burial hurts more.  That just leaves Preta, who obviously can ST away a sand grab.  However, he's still standing on more sand during the 5 second cool down, so he's going to get grabbed again.  As far as ranged attacks go, missiles and such aren't going to penetrate his defences any better than Deidara's bombs did, and BT is countered by Gaara having flying sand to keep him from getting pulled into anything.  Again, Deva could opt for an immediate CT or try to CST him into the dirt, but without knowledge, and seeing that those moves take a little bit of time to shut down other paths and prepare, he probably doesn't get the chance to, or get interrupted if he tries - though again with no knowledge, I don't think he would.

I think that obviously if these fights happened in the manga, stuff would happen so Gaara doesn't solo the six paths or Itachi, as they're obviously portrayed as being on a higher level than him, but strictly by feats, Gaara in a desert can be pretty ridiculous, especially when you stack him with extra advantages like the Shukaku, full knowledge, and rob his opponents of the knowledge they need to employ the few justifiable counters they have, and bloodlust him to ensure he uses the entire freaking desert immediately, even though he does that IC anyway when possible.  That's my opinion as someone who doesn't really care about Gaara.

Under circumstances that aren't incredibly skewed, Gaara can probably reliably take Kakuzu or Kisame.  Kisame mainly because his sand got made immune to chakra absorbtion.  Prior to that, Kisame I thought Kisame mopped the floor with him by eating all the chakra, and doton swimming through his sand grab attempts.  Mmm, doton might still be viable though.  I'm unsure.  I'll go with Kakuzu.

Obito trolls him with kamui regardless.


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## byakugan man (Feb 4, 2014)

kisame would be really easy. maybe even tobi


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## Icegaze (Feb 4, 2014)

asstonine said:


> 1) That wasn't even a ninja!  Just some citizen!
> 2) He was trying to come up with ANYTHING, regardless of how crazy it was, to explain what was happening!
> 3) Line of sight.
> 4) Madara >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Itachi
> ...



1) itachi mind fucked deidara just as easily.  Deidara nearly blew himself up 
2) ??
3) itachi can just as easily force line of sight as gaara can evade it .crows , clones , finger genjutsu and sharingan genjutsu . Lots of ways to force genjutsu 
4) madara being superior isn't in question however v4 susanoo >>v3 susanoo 

Even other itachi haters like urself agreed on that


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