# DMS Kakashi vs. EMS Madara and Sage Hashirama



## Crow (Sep 29, 2015)

Place: Madara vs Gokage
Distance: .5 Kilometers away from each other
Knowlege: Manga
Mindset: IC
Madara doesn't have any of Hashirama's techniques

1st scenario is the same as I described.
2nd Scenario Madara has Rinnegan

Restrictions: Izangi, Izanami

Who will prevail?


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

Either one would solo. 

Kakashi can use Obito's power for a fixed amount of time.

Which is not very long as we have seen in the manga. In addition, Kakashi as we have seen
used 4 Kamui Shurkin
3

Madara can use his PS's swords 3x more than that.
3

So, they will counter Kakashi's attack easily, and the rest are going to reach Kakashi's PS and hit it, hard. It is even worst for him with Hashirama since the Buddha or the other arms can get in the Shurkin's Kamui, while the rest of them goes for the attack.

Kakashi cannot use Kamui with PS to make his PS untouchable as we have seen here
3

Kaguya's attack destroyed Kakash's PS, even tho HE was using Kamui to go through her attacks. 
And since the knowledge you gave for them here is "manga" Madara has already seen Kamui before, unlike Kaguya, so his counter should be better than Kaguya getting surprised for now knowing what
happened.

Fighting the 2 of them at the same time is even worst for him, especially with that limited amount of
time. He could defeat 1 of them, but no way in hell is he defeating both, even then, he is simply "on their level" for a really short amount of time before he turns into a bug in comparison.


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

Kakashi as much of a "god" tier as Bolt or Sakura. Any sane person would know that neither Sakura nor Bolt
are on the same level as Kaguya or Momoshiki. Nor is Kakashi any different than the 2 (Sakura punched Kaguya, and Bolt KILLED Momoshiki). 

Or as much as the are as powerful as adult Sasuke, momoshiki and JJ Madara since they put Kinshiki in place.
It's about time you learned how utterly retarded that logic is. It's pretty sad really.


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## ARGUS (Sep 29, 2015)

Kakashi clowns them with no difficulty, any rikudo char throws these 2 in the dirt 

 -- Rikudo PS dices these guys in half, kamui shuriken warps away large chunks of hashiramas SS every time they land (and they will) add PS slashes and the Buddha gets obliterated 

 -- Madaras PS is not even worth mentioning. Given the kamui feats of kakashi. It just gets warped off with shit ease. And it's GG, and if that's too much for people to take in. Then a Rikudo PS takes a dump on Madaras. 

Scenario 2: Madara solos, if he has both the rinnegan 

 -- his Rikudo PS would be superior to kakashis, and outside of constructs, limbo shits on all of kakashis Arsenal


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Kakashi clowns them with no difficulty, any rikudo char throws these 2 in the dirt
> 
> -- Rikudo PS dices these guys in half, kamui shuriken warps away large chunks of hashiramas SS every time they land (and they will) add PS slashes and the Buddha gets obliterated
> 
> ...



 this post tho. 

Do you think the current Kages are JJ SM Madara's level? 



> kamui shuriken warps away large chunks of hashiramas SS every time they land (and they will)



Kakashi has 1000 Kamui Shurkin? What manga do you read? 



> add PS slashes and the Buddha gets obliterated



It did not when Madara did it. 



> -- Madaras PS is not even worth mentioning. Given the kamui feats of kakashi. It just gets warped off with shit ease. And it's GG



Weren't people saying this same shit even since Kamui was introduced? But when has such non-sense ever happened? 
why did not her Kamui GG Kaguya?


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## ARGUS (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> this post tho.
> 
> Do you think the current Kages are JJ SM Madara's level?


I'm not answering your questions which usually lead to dumb conclusions derived from god forsaken illogical analogies 



> Kakashi has 1000 Kamui Shurkin? What manga do you read?


Never said he had 1000




> It did not when Madara did it.


Last time I checked, EMS Madaras PS is not boosted by rikudos chakra, so bad argument 



> Weren't people saying this same shit even since Kamui was introduced? But when has such non-sense ever happened?
> why did not her Kamui GG Kaguya?


because she was too fast for kamui 
She not only had an S/T jutsu but she evaded sasukes faster ameno strike on foot 

Madara on the other hand has no defense against it since all kamui would do is warp The head of PS along with Madara himself


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

> [=ARGUS;54433564]I'm not answering your questions which usually lead to dumb conclusions derived from god forsaken illogical analogies



translation " I am not going to answer your question because it will reveal the dumb logic I use" 




> Never said he had 1000


Then how do you think the Buddha's arms are going to be destroyed? Enlighten us. 



> Last time I checked, EMS Madaras PS is not boosted by rikudos chakra, so bad argument


So? His Edo self was bosted by Rikudos chakra, did that make him destroy Hashirama's Wooden Human? 


> because she was too fast for kamui
> She not only had an S/T jutsu but she evaded sasukes faster ameno strike on foot


Was Deva, Edo Madara, the 7 swrodsmen, the Bijuus, the Jinchurikis, Zetsu all too fast for Kamui as well?
Because I don't remember the Kamui GG to happen to any of them. 



> Madara on the other hand has no defense against it since all kamui would do is warp The head of PS along with Madara himself



So all those mentioned previously had?


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## Arles Celes (Sep 29, 2015)

I see DMS Kakashi as superior to either of them individually but not both at once.

Hurting Kaguya makes no difference as it is not unheard of for a weaker character to manage to hurt a stronger one via luck, teamwork or plot. Even Sakura contributed against Kaguya significantly despite being portrayed as leagues weaker while the much stronger Sasuke did not land a clean hit.

Having to deal with another PS, Mokujin and Shinsenjuu would force Kakashi to stay intangible all the time and he never used sniping kamui while being intangible. If Madara and Hashi keep a steady onslaught then Kakashi's intangibility limit will run out eventually and he will die.


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> I see DMS Kakashi as superior to either of them individually but not both at once.
> *
> Hurting Kaguya makes no difference as it is not unheard of for a weaker character to manage to hurt a stronger one via luck, teamwork or plot. Even Sakura contributed against Kaguya significantly despite being portrayed as leagues weaker while the much stronger Sasuke did not land a clean hit.*
> 
> Having to deal with another PS, Mokujin and Shinsenjuu would force Kakashi to stay intangible all the time and he never used sniping kamui while being intangible. If Madara and Hashi keep a steady onslaught then Kakashi's intangibility limit will run out eventually and he will die.



Since you understand the bold better than 99% of the people here. What makes you think Kakashi is superior to them individually then?


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## sanninme rikudo (Sep 29, 2015)

DMS Kakashi drops the duo. His PS is far greater than Madara's due to having Rikudo chakra. Plus, his Kamui just compliments his PS's abilities. Those Kamui shurikens are no joke.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Since you understand the bold better than 99% of the people here. What makes you think Kakashi is superior to them individually then?



Well, against Madara at least Kakashi got not only a Six Path chakra powered PS but also those shurikens while Madara did not shown any jutsus with his PS that can counter that.

With Hashi it is a bit more complicated as Kakashi indeed might be overwhelmed by a barrage of 1000s of powerful punches and a few Kamui Shurikens might not deal with that. However, having Six Path chakra(if only a bit) might make his PS stronger than Madara's whose is powered only with his own Indra's chakra.

Kamui's intangibility is also tricky to handle as only surprise attacks like Hirashin were able to catch the user off guard unless the other Kamui eye was working against Obito.

Admittedly with a barrage that lasts over 5 minutes. 

So in Hashi's case I'm a bit torn as I dunno how much stronger would Six Path chakra make Kakashi's PS above Madara's.

Also it is hard to estimate how much longer Obito could keep powering Kakashi if the battle ended up prolonged. Maybe if he reached his limits he would need to leave Kakashi right away. And maybe he reached those limits when he left him. Or maybe he could have stayed a bit longer. *shrug*


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> DMS Kakashi drops the duo. His PS is far greater than Madara's due to having Rikudo chakra. Plus, his Kamui just compliments his PS's abilities. Those Kamui shurikens are no joke.



Obito's Gedu-Damas have Far more Hago's power than the little Kakashi was given, still got damaged and destroyed from Naruto/Minato and Naruto/Sasuke's attacks who did not have any of Hago's chakra, no? 

Obito's chakra arms which, once again, has MUCH more Hago's chakra and power than Kakashi
was given, got completely shat on by Naruto and Minato's Rassengan, no? 

I wonder who was the first person who came up with having Hago's chakra means you can't be defeated/destroyed except with someone else who has it!


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## Mercurial (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Since you understand the bold better than 99% of the people here. What makes you think Kakashi is superior to them individually then?



It's sincerely funny you are comparing someone already depicted as useful just as a chakra battery and not a fighter like Sakura (thrown by Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo with PS throwing strength) hitting Kaguya *that was already wounded by Kakashi and troubled by Naruto and Sasuke flanking her* to Kakashi *dashing 1 vs 1 against Kaguya, defending himself and hitting her with her unable to even try a counterattack (that Kamui phasing would have made useless anyway)*, overcoming her giant form with Kamui Shuriken that stomped the chakra arms depleted as fast and dangerous by Naruto and Sasuke, stopping Kaguya's S/T counterattack by outspeeding and defeating it with long range Kamui, making a plan for the team to defeat Kaguya and lead the team with his actions in first place. 

But actually it's not strange with your usual trolling. I wonder why no one thinks that Itachi is Sannin level, that DMS Rikudo Kakashi is Hashirama and EMS/Edo Madara level, that Tobirama is weaker than Kin and Gin and so on.


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## Mercurial (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito's Gedu-Damas have Far more Hago's power than the little Kakashi was given, still got damaged and destroyed from Naruto/Minato and Naruto/Sasuke's attacks who did not have any of Hago's chakra, no?
> 
> Obito's chakra arms which, once again, has MUCH more Hago's chakra and power than Kakashi
> was given, got completely shat on by Naruto and Minato's Rassengan, no?
> ...



Obito's or Madara's Gudodama are nothing to DMS powers. Kamui can warp them easily or let the Kamui user pass trhough them. Kamui Shuriken create a warp as big as a Perfect Susanoo, all Gudodama are history in a millisecond. Rikudo chakra allows to defeat them with enpowered normal ninjutsu also.

You think that more chakra is more power. Sadly it's not, this is not Dragon Ball and your reading comprehension is horrible.

I wonder why Naruto and Sasuke weren't able to do shit against Kaguya (Naruto at least could hold his own, Sasuke was completely stomped and negged), then Kaguya enpowered herself by absorbing chakra by the Mugen Tsukuyomi victims, and then guess what even if she was even more powerful than before DMS Rikudo Kakashi entered the fray, countered Kaguya, wounded her, stopped her counterattack and basically allowed Naruto and Sasuke to seal her.


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> It's sincerely funny you are comparing someone already depicted as useful just as a chakra battery and not a fighter like Sakura (thrown by Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo with PS throwing strength) hitting Kaguya *that was already wounded by Kakashi and troubled by Naruto and Sasuke flanking her* to Kakashi *dashing 1 vs 1 against Kaguya, defending himself and hitting her with her unable to even try a counterattack (that Kamui phasing would have made useless anyway)*, overcoming her giant form with Kamui Shuriken that stomped the chakra arms depleted as fast and dangerous by Naruto and Sasuke, stopping Kaguya's S/T counterattack by outspeeding and defeating it with long range Kamui, making a plan for the team to defeat Kaguya and lead the team with his actions in first place.
> 
> But actually it's not strange with your usual trolling. I wonder why no one thinks that Itachi is Sannin level, that DMS Rikudo Kakashi is Hashirama and EMS/Edo Madara level, that Tobirama is weaker than Kin and Gin and so on.



Chakra battery? Don't make me laugh please. If I am to used that fucked up logic, then Sakura will
be stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke who tried to attack Kaguya with PS and his PS got destroyed without even scratching Kaguya.

Sakura destroyed her horn, and effected her. Why don't we say "OH. MY. GOD! Sakura's punch is stronger than Sasuke's PS!" 


@Bold.

Irrelevant. Kaguya was fighting Naruto when Sasuke got to attack her from above. Still did not do jack shit. By that logic of yours, Kakashi was also fresh since he was useless for 99% of the battle. Meanwhile, Sakura drained her power and chakra when she was trying to save Sasuke's ass, no?



> [/U][/B] to Kakashi *dashing 1 vs 1 against Kaguya, defending himself and hitting her with her unable to even try a counterattack (that Kamui phasing would have made useless anyway)*





Kaguya does NOT know about Kamui, that's why there is a big ass "!!?" on top of her head. Meanwhile, in this thread


> Knowlege: Manga


So, it's not the same thing. Madara does know about Kamui in the manga. 



> stopping Kaguya's S/T counterattack by outspeeding and defeating it with long range Kamui, making a plan for the team to defeat Kaguya and lead the team with his actions in first place.



And? Do the characters have to have the same abilities to counter X and and Y?

Kakashi used his ability to do that. Naruto used his clones and sensing to counter Kaguya's attacks with her S/T jutsu. Sakura used her chakra to open holes in those spaces and so on and so forth.

Having a fitting counterattack against X, does not make necessary better at fighting Y. 

Ino saved Kakashi's ass and the rest from the Juubi's TBB when the SA first arrived, she controlled
Kinkaku and made him gets sealed.

Do you agree that she is stronger than Kakashi (who couldn't do anything to save his ass back then)
and stronger than Tobirama who got his ass kicked by Kin because her ability was perfect against them?


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## Mercurial (Sep 29, 2015)

Sasuke fought Kaguya head on (like Naruto did, like Kakashi did, like Sakura didn't). Sasuke was stomped, yes, but he fought her, he didn't attack her when she was wounded and flanked by other far more powerful enemies, like Sakura did. 

And I'm not bothering on the rest of your trolling. As said, I wonder why no one thinks that Itachi is Sannin level, that DMS Rikudo Kakashi is Hashirama and EMS/Edo Madara level, that Tobirama is weaker than Kin and Gin and so on.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Kakashi snipes them both at start battle with ranged kamui on the speed level of Perfect Kaguya Ash Bones


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

> [=Raikiri19;54433760]Obito's or Madara's Gudodama are nothing to DMS powers. Kamui can warp them easily or let the Kamui user pass trhough them.




Minato's body can also take those Gedu-Damas and teleport them making them useless. How does that change that they have Hago's chakra in them and they destroyed Naruto's Kurama's avatar and
Sasuke's Susanoo with CS?

Or how does that change that they destroyed Minato's arms despite being able to deal with them with his abilities as we have seen? 


> Kamui Shuriken create a warp as big as a Perfect Susanoo, all Gudodama are history in a millisecond. Rikudo chakra allows to defeat them with enpowered normal ninjutsu also.


and Minato can create a S/T barrier that is FAR bigger than PS. How does that change that in actual battle he lost his arms to them? Things do not go that way. 



> You think that more chakra is more power. Sadly it's not, this is not Dragon Ball and your reading comprehension is horrible.



When did I say "more chakra" makes you more powerful? If I think of that logic, I wouldn't have argued that Minato is stronger than A or B, or itachi is stronger than Kisame...etc 

Things here
1- the SOURCE of power is from the same person "Obito". However, Obito at one point has MUCH more chakra than the other point. 

It was specifically mentioned that Madara's chakra for example is stronger than Obito
3
and it was mentioned again that Obito is weak in comparison
3
and we know that going "inside" someone's else's body make you even weaker
3

So, in term of "power" Kakashi is far weaker than the half dead obito to begin with. this is FACT. 
Meanwhile, I am stating that Kakashi is on EMS Madara and Hashirama's level, not based on that, but rather based on his performance and what he has. I.E PS WITHOUT ignoring that he has a very small window to use that power. 



> I wonder why Naruto and Sasuke weren't able to do shit against Kaguya (Naruto at least could hold his own, Sasuke was completely stomped and negged),


Don't make me laugh. Naruto was holding his own the entire goddamn time. The problem was sealing her which he needs Sasuke to do so. Had Kakashi not have them there, he would got stomped. 

Naruto did punch Kaguya in the face, he did hit her with 9 TBB FRS, and made her lost control of the Bijuus and kept dodging her attacks and so on... 


> then Kaguya enpowered herself by absorbing chakra by the Mugen Tsukuyomi victims, and then guess what even if she was even more powerful than before DMS Rikudo Kakashi entered the fray, countered Kaguya, wounded her, stopped her counterattack and basically allowed Naruto and Sasuke to seal her.



and guessed who punched her so she does not escape? It's Sakura.  

that last chapter is portrayed as the last mission for TEAM 7. Everyone had to participate in it because that IS the message. Not that Kakashi is
on their level because he hit her.

Same shit happened in Bolt's movie. the Bonds between the father-son or the teacher and the student. That's why Bolt took part and killed the enemy despite being obviously weaker. It's not Kishi trying to tell us "I wonder why Naruto and Sasuke did not kill momoshiki, oh wait, Bolt is stronger than them because guess who stopped him after he absorbed Kinshiki"  which is your logic here.


Same why no one claim that Tobirama is stronger than Obito or on his level because they managed to hit him. Team work is always emphasized on this manga. 
which makes your point the more ridiculous. Look at how, altho much weaker, KCM Minato and Tobirama were fighting and helping perfectly against JJ Obito.

Same shit will be here that Madara and Hashirama will do against Kakashi (who's far weaker than Obito).


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain, ranged rikudo kamui low diffs

They haven't the speed to react or avoid it


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## Trojan (Sep 29, 2015)

As I said, people kept saying that nonsense like forever. Such a thing never happened in the manga. Is just fan-fictional way. Same like with the nonsense people say like Amatersu GG or the like of it. If you read the manga you should know that those type of things are not to be taken seriously...


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## Hachibi (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain what are you doing

Hussain stop

OT: DMS Kakashi still solo.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> As I said, people kept saying that nonsense like forever. Such a thing never happened in the manga. Is just fan-fictional way. Same like with the nonsense people say like Amatersu GG or the like of it. If you read the manga you should know that those type of things are not to be taken seriously...


Why are you hating on Kakashi? Minato isn't even against him in this thread, plus he's his student. 

C'mon fanboy, stay true to Minato. 

The guy warped Ash Bones before they could travel over a foot, in a reactionary Kamui [1] [2]. This guy didn't even know the Bone was being fired by the arm on the ground, and still warped it before it could even fully extend out of the other portal. 

Their heads are in another dimension before they even realize it's happening, nothing in the manga can dispute this. That's one of the fastest ranged attacks in the entire narutoverse.


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## t0xeus (Sep 29, 2015)

Kakashi may actually be able to snipe them from 5km distance since the location allows it, lol.

Anyways he takes it low-diff, because Hashi may realize Kamui's ability and try to block it with Mokuton, but it all depends on who Kakashi focuses first.


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## sanninme rikudo (Sep 29, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito's Gedu-Damas have Far more Hago's power than the little Kakashi was given, still got damaged and destroyed from Naruto/Minato and Naruto/Sasuke's attacks who did not have any of Hago's chakra, no?
> 
> Obito's chakra arms which, once again, has MUCH more Hago's chakra and power than Kakashi
> was given, got completely shat on by Naruto and Minato's Rassengan, no?
> ...


What Juubito failed to utilize, both Kakashi and his PS possess.(the ability to let things phase through them) What's more is that the Kamui shurikens cut and warp on contact. Madara and Hashi can't compete.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 29, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Other than Hussain or shinobi no kami, any sane person would say that DMS Kakashi solostomps them, like any God Tier would do.


Fix'd.

Kakashi stomps like a god.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

either hashirama or madara would beat him, but some kakashi wank seems to be in order.


which attack would trump the other? 

4 kamui shurikens?


or these?


without PS, kakashi cant counter the flower world and he cant see through hashiramas mokuton clones.

kakashi doesnt even possess the scale without PS to mount an offense against this. 

*Spoiler*: __ 







he would just be forced to stay intangible.

it just gets even easier for madara in scenario 2 during the cqc bout due to the rinnegan. kakashis ninjutsu is absorbed, and quad limbo can act as meat shields.

im not actually expecting any responses to this that arent completely cancerous though.


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## Kyu (Sep 29, 2015)

What the fuck?

DMS tosses these fossils back to the stone age.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> either hashirama or madara would beat him, but some kakashi wank seems to be in order.
> 
> 
> which attack would trump the other?
> ...


Rikudo Kamui Snipe one panels them both without them realizing it, fanboy 

Scans were provided which prove this 

If he can react to Ash Bones before they can travel half a foot, and then warp them before they continue further, these guys got no chance at avoiding head warping


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Rikudo Kamui Snipe one panels them both without them realizing it, fanboy
> 
> Scans were provided which prove this
> 
> If he can react to Ash Bones before they can travel half a foot, and then warp them before they continue further, they got no chance at avoiding head warping



rikudo kamui?



i know full well of this panel. 

DMS kakashis long range kamui is no faster than ms kakashis long range kamui. 

and ash bones arent any faster than any other generic projectile.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> rikudo kamui?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ash Bones are easily top 5 fastest techniques in the entire manga, which is why Kaguya was using them

Kaguya was wiping out RSM Naruto clones with them, the only person to react to them under normal gravitational conditions was DMS Kakashi

Not really sure why you're bringing up that feat, super gravity that held down even Kaguya & RSM Naruto clearly slowed the Ash Bones down, and that's DMS Obito, the guy with the same power as DMS Kakashi- reacting to them with Kamui

Perfect Kaguya one panels both of these clowns with Ash Bones from even an extended distance


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## Ghoztly (Sep 29, 2015)

I was about to say, what makes Kamui faster? Can somebody explain? Honestly seems like they same speed to me.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

I literally explained on this same page.

Is that a serious question?

It warped Perfect Kaguya's Ash Bone in reaction before it could move half a foot out of a portal.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> *Ash Bones are easily top 5 fastest techniques in the entire manga, which is why Kaguya was using them*
> 
> Kaguya was wiping out RSM Naruto clones with them, the only person to react to them under normal gravitation conditions was DMS Kakashi & DMS Obito, two dudes with the same power


how does the bold even make sense? kaguya used the ash bones because its one of her most deadly techniques. they werent implied anywhere to be excessively fast.

kaguya popped naruto clones with it. so what?


> Not really sure why you're bringing up that feat, super gravity that held down even Kaguya clearly slowed the Ash Bones down


and absolutely nothing in the manga hinted at this. this thinking simply comes from you wanting to fulfill your agenda.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

> how does the bold even make sense? kaguya used the ash bones because its one of her most deadly techniques. they werent implied anywhere to be excessively fast.


What do you mean? Kaguya got off two Ash Bones before RSM Naruto could fly a couple feet to her. The first destroyed his clone, the second Kakashi had to save Naruto with Kamui. 



> kaguya popped naruto clones with it. so what?


What the fuck? RSM Naruto is the second fastest being in the entire verse, and far far faster than SM Hashirama & EMS Madara

Clones of him being ravaged by this attack panel after panel from close to long range is an indication that this attack is fast as shit. 



> and absolutely nothing in the manga hinted at this. this thinking simply comes from you wanting to fulfill your agenda.


You are an unbelievable fanboy, bro

It's truly mind boggling the logic you will bend to ensure your shitty old era characters win


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## Mercurial (Sep 29, 2015)

Hashirama and pre jinchuriki Madara are fodders to God Tier characters and DMS Rikudo Kakashi is one of the top elements even in the God Tier due to his feats against the most powerful version of the most powerful character in the manga. Someone that in her less powerful version is far more powerful than full power Juubi Madara, who is more powerful than Juubi Madara, who is more powerful than controlled Juubi Obito, who is more powerful than mindless Juubi Obito, who Hashirama, who is EMS/Edo Madara's more or less equal, admitted total inferiority.

Even someone of the lesser God Tiers like Toneri or Juubi Obito would slaughter Hashirama and EMS/Edo Madara. Deal with it.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What do you mean? Kaguya got off two Ash Bones before RSM Naruto could fly a couple feet to her. The first destroyed his clone, the second Kakashi had to save Naruto with Kamui.
> 
> Are you daft?


the clone was just swapping fodder for sasuke. they basically baited the ash bone.


> What the fuck? RSM Naruto is the second fastest being in the entire verse, clones of him being ravaged by this attack panel after panel is an indication that this attack is fast as shit.


sure he is, with shunshin that is.

the vast majority of clones that kaguya took out were killed by her hand, not from firing the ash bones.




> You are an unbelievable fanboy, bro
> 
> It's truly mind boggling the logic you will bend to ensure your old era characters win


how am i bending logic? the fanbases for specifically naruto/sasuke/kakashi are always making up nonsensical excuses for feats that bring their favorite characters power within moderation.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 29, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Hashirama and pre jinchuriki Madara are fodders to God Tier characters and DMS Rikudo Kakashi is one of the top elements even in the God Tier due to his feats against the most powerful version of the most powerful character in the manga. Someone that in her less powerful version is far more powerful than full power Juubi Madara, who is more powerful than Juubi Madara, who is more powerful than controlled Juubi Obito, who is more powerful than mindless Juubi Obito, who Hashirama, who is EMS/Edo Madara's more or less equal, admitted total inferiority.
> 
> Even someone of the lesser God Tiers like Toneri or Juubi Obito would slaughter Hashirama and EMS/Edo Madara. Deal with it.



Actually Kaguya was getting weaker due to her overuse of exhausting jutsus and after returning to her normal form- after being a Monster Rabbit for a while- she was just restored to her initial level of power-during the beginning of the fight- which was not enough to kill Naruto and Sasuke anyway.
[1]

Even the bones on her back were crumbling due to exhaustion. She just recovered rather than getting stronger than ever.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

> the clone was just swapping fodder for sasuke. they basically baited the ash bone.


Dude she tagged it before it could react, if it could dodge the attack it would have spun and continued going at her. 



> sure he is, with shunshin that is.


His flight speed was enough to allow his clones to flank Kaguya and avoid her blindside portal grab. 



> the vast majority of clones that kaguya took out were killed by her hand, not from firing the ash bones.


Yes, but she also destroyed two RSM clones [1] [2] [3] and DMS Obito [1] with ranged Ash Bones.

This is not a slow attack, what manga are you reading?



> how am i bending logic? the fanbases for specifically naruto/sasuke/kakashi are always making up nonsensical excuses for feats that bring their favorite characters power within moderation.


I'm not making shit up dude, it's in the fucking manga. Ash Bones blitzed multiple RSM Naruto Clones which have significantly better reactions and speed than SM Hashirama & EMS Madara.

And Kakashi warped an Ash Bone before it could move half a foot, saving the actual RSM Naruto.


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## Mercurial (Sep 29, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Actually Kaguya was getting weaker due to her overuse of exhausting jutsus and after returning to her normal form- after being a Monster Rabbit for a while- she was just restored to her initial level of power-during the beginning of the fight- which was not enough to kill Naruto and Sasuke anyway.
> [1]
> 
> Even the bones on her back were crumbling due to exhaustion. She just recovered rather than getting stronger than ever.



Sorry but that's sadly incorrect. It's as I said. Kakashi fought very very well against a Kaguya who was more powerful than when she fought previously against Naruto and Sasuke (and while Naruto could hold his own in both attack and defense, Sasuke was cockblocked an stomped everytime he attacked and was unable to defend himself from Kaguya, hence he would have died starving in her desert dimension if it weren't for Obito and Sakura). Viz scan.


*Spoiler*: __ 



​


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## Arles Celes (Sep 29, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Sorry but that's sadly incorrect. It's as I said. Kakashi fought very very well against a Kaguya who was more powerful than when she fought previously against Naruto and Sasuke (and while Naruto could hold his own in both attack and defense, Sasuke was cockblocked an stomped everytime he attacked and was unable to defend himself from Kaguya, hence he would have died starving in her desert dimension if it weren't for Obito and Sakura). Viz scan.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



It wouldn't contradict what I posted with her power just before her Rabbit Monster transformation being low due to exhaustion by abusing Amenominaka. 

BZ himself said that using Amenominaka weakens her too much.

Naruto was holding his own against Kaguya for a few chapters and landed like 3 hits on her while Kakashi survived one bone projectile thanks to intangibility and landed a hit. Naruto had a fight while Kakashi had a short skirmish.

Also Naruto's clone-inferior to the original- was able to dodge Kaguya's Ash Bones anyway.
[1]

And what Sasuke has to do anyway? Especially since he was still a noob with his Rinnegan?
That said he "blitzed" Kaguya with Ameterasu forcing her to absorb it LOL.
[1]

If she is so much faster than ever then I guess it puts Sakura above Sasuke anyway since Kaguya despite her Byakugan was unable to react in time to defend while Sasuke  having a weaker Kaguya busy with Naruto was unable to do so.
I'm fine with Sakura being stronger than Sasuke anyway. 

Though even Sasuke can dodge her bones anyway.
[1]

But lets stop since I think we are getting off topic.

Personally I think that it all comes down to whether Kakashi's PS can survive a Shinsenju 1000 punched onslaught. Kakashi cannot make his PS intangible so if Six Path chakra does not make said chakra mecha tougher than Madara's then it is destroyed and Kakashi needs to keep his intangibility activated till the attack is over. While also having to watch out for EMS Madara PS slashes when/if Kakashi's PS was destroyed.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Dude she tagged it before it could react, if it could dodge the attack it would have spun and continued going at her.
> 
> His flight speed was enough to allow his clones to flank Kaguya and avoid her blindside portal grab.


narutos clones never flanked kaguya, at least not in the way you are implying. they flew behind her while she was being attacked from the front.

you are implying that a clone is fast enough to blitz behind kaguya with normal speed before she can react, which is wrong.



> Yes, but she also destroyed two RSM clones [1] [2] [3] and DMS Obito [1] with ranged Ash Bones.
> 
> This is not a slow attack, what manga are you reading?


in the first instance, it was dodged, but kaguya fired another ash bone while the clone was focused on the 1st ash bone.
in the 2nd, the clone was just being used as swapping fodder and was lunging at kaguya, so it wasnt in any sort of position to dodge even if it wanted to.

obito ran in front of the ash bones. he didnt try to dodge it and he made it there at the same exact time as kakashi, from the exact same distance, which means that they are on the same level speed wise.

i never said that ash bone was slow. its only as fast as your average projectile.




> I'm not making shit up dude, it's in the fucking manga. Ash Bones blitzed multiple RSM Naruto Clones which have significantly better reactions and speed than SM Hashirama & EMS Madara.
> 
> *And Kakashi warped an Ash Bone before it could move half a foot, saving the actual RSM Naruto.*


narutos clone isnt>hashirama and madara. this is one of the reasons that these fanbases cant be taken seriously.

@bold-so what?


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## Skywalker (Sep 29, 2015)

Kakashi rapes horribly, they can't touch him, and he can snipe their faces off immediately.


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## Ghoztly (Sep 29, 2015)

I am kind of new but it seems like every DMS thread is the same.

Blah blah immediately warps them blah blah. I wonder if that is actually how the fight would always play out?

Just because he has Rikudo chakra doesn't mean the Kamui is any faster, it would be kind of difficult to prove it is. Kaguya's attacks aren't slow by any means but come on, I remember them getting physically dodged.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 29, 2015)

> narutos clones never flanked kaguya, at least not in the way you are implying. they flew behind her while she was being attacked from the front.


Yes they did, they got behind her when he attempted his Naruto Rendan. 



> you are implying that a clone is fast enough to blitz behind kaguya with normal speed before she can react, which is wrong.


Dude, they got behind her [1] [2] [3]



> in the first instance, it was dodged, but kaguya fired another ash bone while the clone was focused on the 1st ash bone.
> in the 2nd, the clone was just being used as swapping fodder and was lunging at kaguya, so it wasnt in any sort of position to dodge even if it wanted to.


Yes, barely dodged, and the second hit him as it traveled over a distance far greater than the first- yet somehow arriving there at nearly the same time [1] despite the first being instantly transported via a portal [1]

RSM Naruto managing to barely dodge itself is an indication that it's an extremely fast technique. 



> obito ran in front of the ash bones. he didnt try to dodge it and he made it there at the same exact time as kakashi, from the exact same distance, which means that they are on the same level speed wise.


No it does not man, it means the author wanted to draw it.

Kaguya & RSM Naruto being nearly completely immobile while No-Sharingan Kakashi moved across a distance and can completely stand is comical fan service. We're talking about individuals that are thousands of times more physically powerful than Kakashi being outperformed by Kakashi in a pure physical strength feature. 


> i never said that ash bone was slow. its only as fast as your average projectile.


Average projectile?

No such thing exists, the fuck are you talking about?

A kunai throw? Even that deviates in speed from fodder sound shinobi's [1] to 6th Gate Lee's which paces with Truthseekers 



> narutos clone isnt>hashirama and madara. this is one of the reasons that these fanbases cant be taken seriously.


Dude, Pre-Rikudo KCM Naruto's clone > Hashirama & Madara in speed

You must be high to suggest Six Path Sage Kurama Cloaked Mode Naruto's clone isn't quite easily at the very least double their speed in every conceivable category.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 29, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Yes they did, they got behind her when he attempted his Naruto Rendan.
> 
> Dude, they got behind her [1] [2] [3]


they got behind her while she was fending off attacks from the clones in front of her, and they still failed to hit her. you should stop wanking irrelevant details.



> Yes, barely dodged, and the second hit him as it traveled over a distance far greater than the first- yet somehow arriving there at nearly the same time.
> 
> RSM Naruto managing to barely dodge itself is an indication that it's an extremely fast technique.


he "barely dodged" the first bone because she shot it through a portal.


> No it does not man, it means the author wanted to draw it.
> 
> Kaguya & RSM Naruto being nearly completely immobile while No-Sharingan Kakashi moved across a distance and can completely stand is comical fan service.


obito and kakashi are equals in the stats department. what are you talking about? 


> Average projectile?
> 
> No such thing exists, the fuck are you talking about?
> 
> A kunai throw? Even that deviates in speed from fodder sand shinobi's [1] to 6th Gate Lee's which paces with Truthseekers


and as shown, kakashi is fast enough to intercept an ash bone from this distance after its been fired.



> Dude, KCM Naruto's clone > Hashirama & Madara in speed


sig worthy 
especially since sm naruto whos reactions speed is>kcm narutos couldnt avoid madaras blitz.



> You must be high to suggest Six Path Sage Kurama Cloaked Mode Naruto's clone isn't quite easily at the very least double their speed in every conceivable category.


featwise, hes not. you should really bring this wank habit of yours to a speedy end.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 30, 2015)

Lmao sig worthy?

Wank habit?

>50% Rikudo Chakra Empowered (granting Rikudo Sage Mode), Ashura's (Chakra=Body of Hagoromo) Transmigrant, Perfect Sage with 50% Kurama & 8 other bijuu's chakra
>Is not eons faster than SM Hashirama or EMS Madara
>And can somehow be wanked

How could you possibly wank someone with that kind of power? The sky literally _isn't_ the limit for him, he literally battled on the moon 

And won 

And created another moon 

And blocked a moon splitter with his hand 

I hereby grant him a new nickname, the unwankable 

And his clone one panels both EMS Madara & SM Hashirama from 100m via blitz either by flight or shunshin or simple foot speed  

And Ash Bones are significantly faster than anything EMS Madara & SM Hashirama can perceive as they destroyed said RSM clones 

And Kamui that warped Ash Bones before they could move half a foot or flying RSM Naruto could fly half a foot is significantly faster than anything EMS Madara & SM Hashirama can perceive 

And

And

You're a fanboy that I wish I could administer repeated shock treatment to fix 

>Wanking is impossible when they are the one setting the standard for pinnacle


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 30, 2015)

DMS Kakashi solos without much difficulty, the tier jump is far too much for Madara and Hashirama to compete with. They would last longer than any of the others before but this basically like Obito w/o Juubi but with access to Six Paths, Kamui and Kakashi's skill-set.

Just far too broken for any of these guys to manage on their own or by working together.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 30, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Lmao sig worthy?
> 
> Wank habit?
> 
> ...


naruto doesnt have half of hagoromos chakra. the seals containing his chakra went back to him after six paths CT.

narutos six paths sage mode comes from drawing on the power of all the biju.

the underlined is wank, the bold was already disproved. debating with you is truly a waste of time.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> naruto doesnt have half of hagoromos chakra. the seals containing his chakra went back to him after six paths CT.
> 
> narutos six paths sage mode comes from drawing on the power of all the biju.
> 
> the underlined is wank, the bold was already disproved. debating with you is truly a waste of time.



But Naruto could still fly after losing his Hagoromo seal plus use Bijuu FRS and use Gudoudamas.

Neither of that stuff was available to him before he got Hagoromo's power.

It looks like he just lost the ability to use Six Path CT and magical healing.

Same with Sasuke with his Amenotejikara being a gift from RS which he would have lost if he no longer had Hagoromo's power.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 30, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But Naruto could still fly after losing his Hagoromo seal plus use Bijuu FRS and use Gudoudamas.
> 
> Neither of that stuff was available to him before he got Hagoromo's power.
> It looks like he just lost the ability to use Six Path CT and magical healing.


all of this is irrelevant since his six paths sage mode comes from channeling all of the bijus chakra.
he didnt need hagoromos chakras to use any of the abilities he has shown nor does he have hagoromos chakra.


> Same with Sasuke with his Amenotejikara being a gift from RS which he would have lost if he no longer had Hagoromo's power.


what are you talking about? hagoromo gave sasuke the rinnegan and half of his chakra inside the yin seal.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 30, 2015)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> all of this is irrelevant since his six paths sage mode comes from channeling all of the bijus chakra.
> he didnt need hagoromos chakras to use any of the abilities he has shown nor does he have hagoromos chakra.
> 
> what are you talking about? hagoromo gave sasuke the rinnegan and half of his chakra inside the yin seal.



So...what abilities and feats had Naruto and Sasuke shown before losing their seals that they did not show later?

Other than Six Path CT and Magical healing?

Do you believe that Naruto got slower after losing his seal? Do you believe that Sasuke's PS got weaker?

All of their haxx comes from Six Path chakra which they clearly kept. One does not need those seals to have Six Path chakra.

Besides it would be nonsensical if Naruto was depowered to his regular BSM level and lose all of his "Rikudousness" while Sasuke kept his stuff.

All Naruto and Sasuke lost was the power to invoke Six Path CT which Hagoromo specifically gave them to seal Madara believing him to be unkillable.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 30, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> So...what abilities and feats had Naruto and Sasuke shown before losing their seals that they did not show later?
> 
> Other than Six Path CT and Magical healing?
> 
> ...


naruto wasnt depowered to BSM level after losing the seal. he still possesses six paths sage mode because he has all of the bijus chakra. narutos six paths sage mode has nothing to do with hagoromos chakra.


their power didnt change after losing the seals, because hagoromos chakra was never mixed in with their reserves.
both of them were capable of manually extracting chakra from the seal in order to imbue their attacks with hagoromos six paths yin or yang power.


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## Atlantic Storm (Sep 30, 2015)

Refrain from personal attacks, please.


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## ARGUS (Sep 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> translation " I am not going to answer your question because it will reveal the dumb logic I use"


Finally, you came to your senses 



> Then how do you think the Buddha's arms are going to be destroyed? Enlighten us.


Rikudo PS slashes cleave them in half, 
Kamui shurikens managed to warp off a juubi sized entities tails within an instant 
so they can also be used to counter any fists coming at PS, 
not that it matters  since chojo gets tanked with ease 



> So? His Edo self was bosted by Rikudos chakra, did that make him destroy Hashirama's Wooden Human?


Except it wasnt, 
no difference whatsoever between Edo madaras PS and EMS Madaras PS 
had there been a boost, then there wouldve been a clear difference 



> Was Deva, Edo Madara, the 7 swrodsmen, the Bijuus, the Jinchurikis, Zetsu all too fast for Kamui as well?


Wasnt used against any of them, because:  
>against deva it was used only defensively, 
>multiple target zetsus are not suitable for kamui, itll only tire kakashi out, 
>same with jins, and swordsmen 
>against edo madara it was moot since obito was with him to negate the warp altogether 

again, shitty logic with no relevance 


> Because I don't remember the Kamui GG to happen to any of them.
> 
> 
> 
> So all those mentioned previously had?


already addressed, already shat on


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## Ersa (Sep 30, 2015)

The idea that Kakakshi is up there with the protagonists and Kaguya is a joke. The idea that he'd lose to Hashirama and Madara is also a joke.

If anything he should be hovering around Toneri and Obito. Which in any case means he wins here with no difficulty as long as he goes all-out.


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## Zef (Oct 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> The idea that Kakakshi is up there with the protagonists and Kaguya is a joke. The idea that he'd lose to Hashirama and Madara is also a joke.
> 
> If anything he should be hovering around Toneri and Obito. Which in any case means he wins here with no difficulty as long as he goes all-out.


My thoughts exactly. 
DMS Kakashi IMO is slightly above JJ Obito and that's it. However that's still more then enough to stomp Hashirama, and Madara.  The old generation wank needs to stop.


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## Santoryu (Oct 1, 2015)

> The idea that Kakakshi is up there with the protagonists and Kaguya is a joke.



Kakashi at the zenith of his powers was* temporarily* up there with the protagonists as evidenced by the manga. He was a legitimate threat to Kaguya and engineered her downfall. Intangibility, Perfect Susano (that could fly), sniping; this guy has all of the supreme eye powers-and arguably the deadliest tactical mind in the series. Why do you think his power was temporary? 

Kaguya was a cut above them though, as it took all of them to defeat to her.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 1, 2015)

Xillia said:


> Kakashi at the zenith of his powers was* temporarily* up there with the protagonists as evidenced by the manga. He was a legitimate threat to Kaguya and engineered her downfall. Intangibility, Perfect Susano (that could fly), sniping; this guy has all of the supreme eye powers-and arguably the deadliest tactical mind in the series. Why do you think his power was temporary?
> 
> Kaguya was a cut above them though, as it took all of them to defeat to her.



I feel the same, I don't think he was on par with Kaguya but I gather that he was at least on the same level as Naruto/Sasuke when it comes to physical stats and speed. If you include his amped up senjutsu-based chakra to all his other techniques, I'd say he's up there with those guys. I don't know if he could go toe-to-toe with Kaguya, I don't believe Kaguya has control over his Kamui-land ability but then that never came to the forefront, so we'll never know.


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## Ersa (Oct 1, 2015)

Xillia said:


> Kakashi at the zenith of his powers was* temporarily* up there with the protagonists as evidenced by the manga. He was a legitimate threat to Kaguya and engineered her downfall. Intangibility, Perfect Susano (that could fly), sniping; this guy has all of the supreme eye powers-and arguably the deadliest tactical mind in the series. Why do you think his power was temporary?
> 
> Kaguya was a cut above them though, as it took all of them to defeat to her.


*Temporarily *is the main part, his powers burns out quickly as Obito pointed out so he'd straight up lose to the protagonists, Madara and Kaguya because he wouldn't win in the time it takes for his powers to run out. And I shouldn't need to tell you what they do to Base Kakashi.

It's like a mid tier NFL player who can occasionally play at the absolute top level compared to a consistent superstar. Sure, the mid tier guy looks impressive as hell when he plays well but I'd never rank him higher then the superstar.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 1, 2015)

Meh, he'd warp JJ Madara pretty easily. 

Kaguya would just portal back.


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## Mercurial (Oct 2, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> *Temporarily *is the main part, his powers burns out quickly as Obito pointed out so he'd straight up lose to the protagonists, Madara and Kaguya because he wouldn't win in the time it takes for his powers to run out. And I shouldn't need to tell you what they do to Base Kakashi.
> 
> It's like a mid tier NFL player who can occasionally play at the absolute top level compared to a consistent superstar. Sure, the mid tier guy looks impressive as hell when he plays well but I'd never rank him higher then the superstar.



He was temporarily, but he was. And with the feats he showed, lol he needs very short time to make a quick work of them with Kamui Raikiri, Kamui Shuriken or long range Kamui. Defending with Kamui phasing, Rikudo enhanced PS and also maximized speed self warping Kamui.

At his peak, he is more impressive than them. He is actually able to give a fight 1 vs 1 to Kaguya. Defending from her? He can. Attacking her successfully? He can. He made seem Naruto and Sasuke as amateurs when he entered the battle, he alone fought a powered up version of Kaguya better than they could fight Kaguya previously. He could literally make his bitch of Kaguya's giant form, who Naruto and Sasuke called troubling. He could defend from Kaguya, which Naruto and Sasuke barely could, actually Sasuke was clowned every time. He could attack her and wound her with impressive ease. He could use Kamui to make her S/T technique look like slow; the same S/T that made Sasuke her bitch. He made the plan for the rest of the team, and executed it in first place with his actions.

He had that power only temporarily, but he had it. There's no denying in that. With that power he was more comparable to Kaguya than to anyone else, I didn't even believe that could be possibile, but the manga clearly showed that. And Kaguya is > Naruto and Sasuke and > Madara. Madara is more powerful than himself not at full power. Which his still more powerful than Juubi Obito. Who is more powerful than uncontrolled Juubi Obito, who is so far above Hashirama, EMS/Edo Madara's equal, that Hashirama himself immediately admits he has no chance against.


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