# A suitable match for Sun Wukong, what is the strongest universe he could take on?



## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

The character is *[孙悟空]* the Monkey King, the main character from "Journey to the West"; the inspiration of Goku and various other monkeys.

Some calls him *齊天大聖*, "The Great Sage that equals Heaven". He fought 100,000 celestial warriors of the heavenly army and defeated them all. 

He was also apparently born of primordial energies at the beginning of time.

His weapon *如意金箍棒* or "Ideal Golden-bound Cudgel" is his main weapon.

- It is immensely heavy (weighing "13,500 jīn")(8,100 kg/17,820 lbs); in modern measurements, it is slightly heavier than 8.5 metric tons.

- It has the power to change its size, multiply itself, and fight according to the whim of its master.

The rest of his information is here:



What character would be a good match for him?


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

Oh boy... now you've done it. Sun Wu Kong imo stomps most of fiction handily based on a ton of crazy feats he's done. 

*ducks and cover for any possible incoming shitstorm*


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Oh boy... now you've done it. Sun Wu Kong imo stomps most of fiction handily.
> 
> *ducks and cover for any possible incoming shitstorm*



Haha, I don't think it would be that bad. 

I think this community is pretty knowledgeable about stuff like this.


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## JoJo (Sep 24, 2012)

inb4 dbz can beat sun wukong


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Haha, I don't think it would be that bad.
> 
> I think this community is pretty knowledgeable about stuff like this.



Yeah we've had a few sun wu kong threads here and there. But I liked the one from 2010 better than this one (unless more quality ensues). And I think sun wu kong is too cool to kinda b


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## JoJo (Sep 24, 2012)

he stomps fairy tail for starters he shows them real magic

p.s. does he have his flying cloud


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

18renkugipunch said:


> he stomps fairy tail for starters he shows them real magic
> 
> p.s. does he have his flying cloud



He has boots that allow him to walk on clouds, and he could also fly. 

I think the flying cloud is more dbz.


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## Invincible Black Knight (Sep 24, 2012)

I'll get it out of the way and say he beats HST.


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## JoJo (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> The character is *[孙悟空]* the Monkey King, the main character from "Journey to the West"; the inspiration of Goku and various other monkeys.
> 
> Some calls him *齊天大聖*, "The Great Sage that equals Heaven". He fought *100,000 celestial warriors *of the heavenly army and defeated them all.
> 
> ...



how do those celestial enemies compare to the ones in comics


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

@Punch:

Each of them fight an equivalent of a cosmic embodiment, including all 28 constellations, four heavenly kings, and Nezha, the son of Li Jiang Jun who proved himself worthy - and proved himself equal to the best of Heaven's generals, Erlang Shen.


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

18renkugipunch said:


> inb4 dbz can beat sun wukong



Sun Wu Kong would eat DBZ/GT alive in his sleep innumerable times over. 

Not a question.


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## JoJo (Sep 24, 2012)

perhaps galactus with the nullifier  not too sure


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

The Jade Emperor was so afraid, he summoned Buddha to suppress him.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Sun Wu Kong would eat DBZ/GT alive in his sleep innumerable times over.
> 
> Not a question.





No.

Not even close.

Sun Wukung is nowhere close to planet busting.  He also lacks hax to compensate for that.

Speed is about even.

Sun Wukung could make it to Namek arc at most before getting steamrolled.


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## Dr. White (Sep 24, 2012)

Rikudo Sennin gets stomped
Soul King gets stomped
All 4 Yonko, The marines and the Supernova+the Cres get destroyed.
Fairy Tale implodes from hearing they have to face him
Seshoumaru and Naraku get shit banged
Frieza, Cell, SS 3 Goku, SS2 Vegeta, Kid Buu get babyshook
Rorouni Kenshin cuts him once to Su's surprise then gets sealed

Samurai Jack soloes..


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

18renkugipunch said:


> perhaps galactus with the nullifier  not too sure





Mutiuviersal vs island questionably country level at most.

Are we being serious here?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 24, 2012)

Didn't he jump from one continent to another or something?
Just a feat I thought I'd mention.

And he's not taking down DBZ. 

EDIT: Galactus is unnecessary. He gets stomped by any version of Galactus, no matter how hungry he is.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> No.
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> ...



Just some information:

Sun Wukong is immortal, he wiped his name out of the book of death and ate the peaches of immortality

Buddha could not destroy him, instead sealed him.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 24, 2012)

... And he's going to damage DBZ characters how exactly?


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> No.
> 
> Not even close.
> 
> ...



Dude. Have you ever read Journey to the West? This guy was insanely powerful/broken to the point where it took the Buddha to stop him.

And i'm positively certain the Buddha and at least several other gods/beings like him in JoTW craps all over on the DBZ-verse. :/


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Just some information:
> 
> Sun Wukong is immortal, he wiped his name out of the book of death and ate the peaches of immortality
> 
> Buddha could not destroy him, instead sealed him.



That's a nice NLF you got there. :33


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Didn't he jump from one continent to another or something?
> Just a feat I thought I'd mention.
> 
> And he's not taking down DBZ.



His most impressive feat was flying with that cloud to what was supposedly the "edge of the world" in a relatively short time span.



Linkofone said:


> Just some information:
> 
> Sun Wukong is immortal, he wiped his name out of the book of death and ate the peaches of immortality
> 
> Buddha could not destroy him, instead sealed him.



Yeah I know, I read Journey to the West.

Immortality doesn't do jack shit if your opponents so far above you it isn't even funny.

You won't see anyone argueing CC (Code Geass) could beat Luffy for example.

I could also use the NLF arguement.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

After several failed attempts at execution, Sun Wukong was locked into Lao Tzu's eight-way trigram cauldron to be distilled into an elixir by the most sacred and the most severe samadhi fires. After 49 days, the cauldron was opened and Sun Wukong jumped out, stronger than ever. He now had the ability to recognize evil in any form through his huǒyǎn-jīnjīng (火眼金睛) (lit. "fiery-eyes golden-gaze"), an eye condition that also gave him a weakness to smoke, and proceeded to destroy Heaven's remaining forces.

Destroyed Heaven, survived the most intense fires for 49 days. And at the end of Journey to the West, he was granted Buddhahood.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Dude. Have you ever read Journey to the West? This guy was insanely powerful/broken to the point where it took the Buddha to stop him.
> 
> And i'm positively certain the Buddha and at least several other gods/beings like him in JoTW craps all over on the DBZ-verse. :/



Have you?

There's no feats that suggest that he could take anything above country busting.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> After several failed attempts at execution, Sun Wukong was locked into Lao Tzu's eight-way trigram cauldron to be distilled into an elixir by the most sacred and the most severe samadhi fires. After 49 days, the cauldron was opened and Sun Wukong jumped out, stronger than ever. He now had the ability to recognize evil in any form through his huǒyǎn-jīnjīng (火眼金睛) (lit. "fiery-eyes golden-gaze"), an eye condition that also gave him a weakness to smoke, and proceeded to destroy Heaven's remaining forces.
> 
> Destroyed Heaven, survived the most intense fires for 49 days. And at the end of Journey to the West, he was granted Buddhahood.



Cool story.

Doesn't mean he could survive planet busting attacks.


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> After several failed attempts at execution, Sun Wukong was locked into Lao Tzu's eight-way trigram cauldron to be distilled into an elixir by the most sacred and the most severe samadhi fires. After 49 days, the cauldron was opened and Sun Wukong jumped out, stronger than ever. He now had the ability to recognize evil in any form through his huǒyǎn-jīnjīng (火眼金睛) (lit. "fiery-eyes golden-gaze"), an eye condition that also gave him a weakness to smoke, and proceeded to destroy Heaven's remaining forces.
> 
> Destroyed Heaven, survived the most intense fires for 49 days. And at the end of Journey to the West, *he was granted Buddhahood.*



Yup that's pretty much something no DBZ character is ever going to top or match.


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## Weather (Sep 24, 2012)

All is see is talking about how God he is and whatnot. 

We need actual feats you know


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Have you?
> 
> There's no feats that suggest that he could take anything above country busting.



Destroying Heaven and the 100,000 Celestial cosmic embodiment is only country busting?

Just wanted to know.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Pecola said:


> Yup that's pretty much something no DBZ character is ever going to top or match.





Budha mode Wukong had no feats.  

Also every budha not named guan yin or the actual Budha had no feats so there's nothing to powerscale him from.

Just because he's budha doesn't mean shit.


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## Solrac (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Have you?
> 
> There's no feats that suggest that he could take anything above country busting.



I read it once two years ago in Comparative Literature class and dude was monstrously broken. 

Besides I can't think of a single DBZ character that would be able to stand a chance against the frickin' Buddha himself (which is actually assumed in the epic to be the same as the religious canon Buddha FYI).


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Destroying Heaven and the 100,000 Celestial cosmic embodiment is only country busting?
> 
> Just wanted to know.





He didn't destroy heaven.

He heavily damaged structures or some shit but heaven was still around when he was journeying Sanzang.  

Also there's nothing to suggest that heaven and the 100000 celestial cosmic embodiment is the actual size of a world.

We weren't even given measurements to it's size IIRC.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Pecola said:


> I read it once two years ago in Comparative Literature class and dude was monstrously broken.
> 
> Name me one DBZ character that would last a second against the frickin' Buddha himself (which is actually assumed in the epic to be the same as the religious canon Buddha).





First of all we're not talking about Budha. 

Second of all your still not naming feats and is only relying on the "OMG look at this awesome title" arguement.

Third of all broken is all relative.  One person in one fiction is broken.  He becomes fodder in another fiction.


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## Nevermind (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring owning this thread like a boss.

My applause. Looks like not all 12'ers are shit.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> He didn't destroy heaven.
> 
> He heavily damaged structures or some shit but heaven was still around when he was journeying Sanzang.
> 
> ...



Yes but they were Cosmic entities. 

Along the Journey Wukong was also given free access to the powers of Heaven to combat threats such as demons. 

He also have magical powers that were used in Journey to the West:

 Body Freezing Spell

 With a single syllable and a point of his finger, he can magically freeze anyone into immobility.
　

 Water Avoidance Charm (Bi Shui Jue)

Allows him to survive in deep waters. A major drawback is that he can't fight while using this charm.

　

 Fire Avoidance Charm (Bi Huo Jue)

Allows him to go through fire unharmed. This charm doesn't have the Water Avoidance Charm's drawback.

　

 Wind

He can induce very strong winds and windstorms.

Summoning

He can summon the local gods of any place he goes, that is the Earth Gods, Mountain Gods, River Gods, and the like.

　

Protective Circle

He can build a protective, albeit invisible wall by drawing a circle on the ground with his magic rod. Anyone staying inside the circle will be safe from harm as long as they don't go out.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Yes but they were Cosmic entities.
> 
> Along the Journey Wukong was also given free access to the powers of Heaven to combat threats such as demons.
> 
> ...



None of that is letting him get Past DBZ. 

What's his best speed feat?

Huntring where are you getting Country busting from?


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## Nevermind (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Yes but they were Cosmic entities.



With what feats? Right now you're just using equivocation without real substance.



> Along the Journey Wukong was also given free access to the powers of Heaven to combat threats such as demons.



More equivocation.

He also have magical powers that were used in Journey to the West:



> Body Freezing Spell
> 
> With a single syllable and a point of his finger, he can magically freeze anyone into immobility.



No limits fallacy.　



> Water Avoidance Charm (Bi Shui Jue)
> 
> Allows him to survive in deep waters. A major drawback is that he can't fight while using this charm.



Does nothing.


> Fire Avoidance Charm (Bi Huo Jue)
> 
> Allows him to go through fire unharmed. This charm doesn't have the Water Avoidance Charm's drawback.



Does nothing.


> Wind
> 
> He can induce very strong winds and windstorms.



Does nothing.



> Summoning
> 
> He can summon the local gods of any place he goes, that is the Earth Gods, Mountain Gods, River Gods, and the like.



Gods with what feats? Otherwise it's just more equivocation.



> Protective Circle
> 
> He can build a protective, albeit invisible wall by drawing a circle on the ground with his magic rod. Anyone staying inside the circle will be safe from harm as long as they don't go out.



No limits fallacy.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Endless said:


> None of that is letting him get Past DBZ.
> 
> What's his best speed feat?
> 
> Huntring where are you getting Country busting from?



The fact of free powers from Heaven. Summoning local gods, immoblizing threats with a point of a finger.

Did I mention that he can turn each one of his hairs into a clone of himself? 

Opps.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> The fact of free powers from Heaven. Summoning local gods, immoblizing threats with a point of a finger.
> 
> Did I mention that he can turn each one of his hairs into a clone of himself?
> 
> Opps.



The fact that none of those will do anything to DBZ characters.

Did I mention that clones don't matter at all?

Oops.


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## Weather (Sep 24, 2012)

> The fact of free powers from Heaven. Summoning local gods, immoblizing threats with a point of a finger.



And did these work on the level of DBZ characters.

Otherwise I call NLF.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Hey don't blame me for giving extra information about Sun Wukong. 

Anyways, here are some more:

Wukong's rod weighs 8100kg, a pillar of iron that anchors the Milky Way in place.

Can transform its size to the user's will.

Wu Kong is immortal. Not only that, his 72 Transformations gives him 72 extra lives. Because he stole and ate peaches and golden pills of immortality, his body can be invulnerable to all attacks. (People can believe whatever they want to). 

He can cut open his stomach, take out his intestines, and put them back again. If his head is cut off, he can reattach it or just grow it back again. (So hinting healing factor)


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Endless said:


> What's his best speed feat?
> 
> Huntring where are you getting Country busting from?



Best speed feat?  Like it was mentioned in that link in the op he could leap 108000 li in one bound.  108000 is equal to 54000 km if that website is correct.

Country busting because he temporily matched the Garuda whose wing span covered up the entire sky around the world.

Take note that "the world" was likely referring to just China and maybe India considering that the average Chinese person is only aware of these two countires during the time this book was written.

Also he was defeated rather casually in the end by the Garuda so I'm not sure if we could powerscale like that.

He's definitely a least island level because a sage cast a spell on him that imitates the weight of two large mountains and he was still able to run around rather casually.



Linkofone said:


> The fact of free powers from Heaven. Summoning local gods, immoblizing threats with a point of a finger.



Take note that help from heaven and summoning local gods are not part of his skill set but rather outside influence that he can call upon because of his fame and authority.

Also local gods are shit tier with no feats.  There literally everyones bitchs.

Immoblizing threats with one finger only works on fodder.  Anyone with any degree of strength has resisted it or Wukong didn't even bother.



> Did I mention that he can turn each one of his hairs into a clone of himself?
> 
> Opps.



You forgot to mention that the clones he make are glass cannons that can't take hits for shit.

Hell I vaguely recall it mentioning that even strong wind can blow them over since it still retains the weight of hair.


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## Asune (Sep 24, 2012)

Aspergin and his featless arguments are funny to read


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Best speed feat?  Like it was mentioned in that link in the op he could leap 108000 li in one bound.  108000 is equal to 54000 km if that website is correct.
> 
> Country busting because he temporily matched the Garuda whose wing span covered up the entire sky around the world.
> 
> ...



Yes, yes, most of what you said are truth.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Hey don't blame me for giving extra information about Sun Wukong.
> 
> Anyways, here are some more:
> 
> Wukong's rod weighs 8100kg, a pillar of iron that anchors the *Milky Way* in place.



Bullshit.

Hell I don't even have to read the book to know it's bullshit.

You know why?  Because no one in China at the time the book was written had any idea of things like "the space" much less the "Milky Way".

It acted as the anchor of the east China Sea IIRC.



> Can transform its size to the user's will.



There's a limit to how large/small that was mentioned in the novel.  Forgot what it was but it certainly not enough for DBZ.



> Wu Kong is immortal. Not only that, his 72 Transformations gives him 72 extra lives. Because he stole and ate peaches and golden pills of immortality, his body can be *invulnerable to all attacks*. (People can believe whatever they want to).





That explains why the Red Childs flames burned him right?

Or why the Garuda kicked his ass.

Did you read the book?  Or did you just see or heard of a cool character and thought that it would be cool to use him in a OBD match.



> He can cut open his stomach, take out his intestines, and put them back again. If his head is cut off, he can reattach it or just grow it back again. (So hinting healing factor)



This is the only part you got right.

Not enough for DBZ.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Although I would like to say, the Chinese were aware of Rome and Europeans during the Ming dynasty.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Although I would like to say, the Chinese were aware of Rome and Europeans during the Ming dynasty.



Only vaguely aware.

And also almost everyone had no idea how big Rome or the Europeons are.

To them it was just some fantasy land.

It doesn't help that the emperor of China forbid all foreign interaction during the time period that the book was written so there was no way for the author to have a idea of that stuff.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> Hell I don't even have to read the book to know it's bullshit.
> 
> ...




I read Journey to the West as a kid while in China, although, I do not remember all of it, yes I have read it. Sun Wukong was a character that i knew since I was a kid. 

I clearly remember the Milky way fact was mentioned either in the Original or the English translation. I will go and find it. 

As for the rest, like fighting Nezha(red flame boy), I just remember he won and defeated him quite easily.


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> I read Journey to the West as a kid while in China, although, I do not remember all of it, yes I have read it. Sun Wukong was a character that i knew since I was a kid.
> 
> I clearly remember the Milky way fact was mentioned either in the Original or the English translation. I will go and find it.



Not even close.



> As for the rest, like fighting Nezha(red flame boy), I just remember he won and defeated him quite easily.





If by defeat easily you mean, get burned and have to get Guan Yin to help him then sure.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Not even close.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I actually do not recall him needing Guan Yin's help to defeat Nezha. But, i'll go read Journey to the West again, just to make sure.


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## Linkofone (Sep 24, 2012)

Because I can't share the book with everyone, here is the link to the old tv series of Journey to the West: It shows several feats I explained. Please mind the production value, it was made a long long time ago. 

 tossing


Oh yeah, and the horrible acting. 

And as for Nezha:

Prince Nezha and Sun Wukong both used their divine powers to the full as they fought thirty rounds. When the six weapons of the prince turned into thousands and tens of thousands, so did Sun Wukong's gold?banded cudgel. The air was filled as if with drops of rain or shooting stars, and there was no way of telling who was winning. As Sun Wukong was deft of hand and quick of eye, he plucked one of the hairs from his body in the midst of the fray and shouted "Change!" It changed into his own double to mislead Nezha while his real self leapt round till he was behind Nezha and struck at his left shoulder. Nezha was in the middle of performing a spell when he heard the whistle of the cudgel through the air and twisted away as fast as he could. But he was unable to avoid the blow and had to flee wounded. He brought his magic to an end, put his six weapons away, reverted to his true appearance, and abandoned the field of battle in defeat.

This had all been observed by Heavenly King Li, who was on the point of sending reinforcements when his son appeared before him and reported in fear and trembling, "Father, the Protector of the Horses is very powerful. My magic was outclassed and he has wounded me in the shoulder."


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## Huntring (Sep 24, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> I actually do not recall him needing Guan Yin's help to defeat Nezha. But, i'll go read Journey to the West again, just to make sure.



Have fun with that.



Linkofone said:


> Because I can't share the book with everyone, here is the link to the old tv series of Journey to the West: It shows several feats I explained. Please mind the production value, it was made a long long time ago.
> 
> tossing



The live production is far weaker then the original.

Mainly because their was no way to animate the really impressive things.

Just something to take note of.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Have fun with that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 tossing

From 7:45 - He kinda made Nezha run in horror.

As proof for the Milky Way feat:


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

I'm pretty sure before the heaven arc, he mess up hell, and tore the book of the dead, plunging hell into chaos, and hell cant judge anyone because there's no record.


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## Huntring (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Link removed
> 
> From 7:45 - He kinda made Nezha run in horror.



Sorry I wasn't referring to Nezha.  I was referring to that kid that breathed fire and was the son of the ox king.  



> As proof for the Milky Way feat:



I don't really trust a random website.  Can you give me the actual text in the book.  Also chinese novels are famous for their hyperpoles.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Sorry I wasn't referring to Nezha.  I was referring to that kid that breathed fire and was the son of the ox king.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't really trust a random website.  Can you give me the actual text in the book.  Also chinese novels are famous for their hyperpoles.



ok, well I have some more. In Chinese and Japanese mythology, the milky way was refered as the Heavenly river, or the river of heaven.



In The Monkey and the Monk: An Abridgment of The Journey to the West, page 39.


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## Huntring (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> ok, well I have some more. In Chinese and Japanese mythology, the milky way was refered as the Heavenly river, or the river of heaven.
> 
> 
> 
> In The Monkey and the Monk: An Abridgment of The Journey to the West, page 39.



I see. 

Either way, I'm better sure this is a hyperbole.  And I've already gone of tangent to many times so I'll stop know.

Anyways to sum up the original debate about SunWukong vs DBZ, my reaction would be along the lines of:


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

I never specifically said to challenge Sun Wukong to DBZ. 

My original question was asking what is the strongest universe that Sun Wukong could beat.

I just stated several skill that could give him advantage.


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## Huntring (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> I never specifically said to challenge Sun Wukong to DBZ.
> 
> My original question was asking what is the strongest universe that Sun Wukong could beat.



I wasn't exactly referring to you.  

Just the people that believe that Sun Wukong could beat DBZ.

Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Huntring said:


> I wasn't exactly referring to you.
> 
> Just the people that believe that Sun Wukong could beat DBZ.
> 
> Sorry if I wasn't being clear enough.



Its fine, I respect your knowledge of this subject. Or else I would have argued with some person who has no idea what he was talking about. Something to the lines of "Naruto can beat him because NINETAILES!".

Although I still believe that Wukong is fairly powerful, although lacking feats. I bet he can give Goku a fair enough fight. Afterall, Wukong does have Godly powers.


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## Saint Saga (Sep 25, 2012)

Huntring is a shoe maker , so i'd trust his knowledge about chinese stories .


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> Huntring is a shoe maker , so i'd trust his knowledge about chinese stories .



Apparently, all of Wukong's special abilities have "No limit Fallacies", which I personally think is not true, I do not have enough evidence that he could beat DBZ universe alone.


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## Shock Therapy (Sep 25, 2012)

Saint Saga said:


> Huntring is a shoe maker , so i'd trust his knowledge about chinese stories .



This makes no sense.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Wikis are not complete.



really like this wukong comic.

sun wukong is broken. If you want to know how powerful he is, look the being that defeat him. In most interpretation of wukong, that I find interesting is how they interpret Buddha. They dont call Buddha a God. They call him the very essence of the universe, life,etc. He's above God lvl. Put it in Marvel perspective that equivalent to One Above All.

So, if it took a One Above All char lvl to knock him down, how broken do you he is?


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

*Spoiler*: __ 





kluang said:


> Wikis are not complete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






True....but....people said that he doesn't have feats.....so.......I honestly don't know how to explain.

I mean....I understand both sides...


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 25, 2012)

Yeah, too bad that Journey to the West wasn't made by marvel. That sounded like nothing close to TOAA.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Yeah, too bad that Journey to the West wasn't made by marvel. That sounded like nothing close to TOAA.



The Sun Wukong in Marvel is weaker than the Iron Fist.

I swear they claimed that Buddha was the strongest deity in Journey to the West. That is why the Jade Emperor had to call him for help.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 25, 2012)

Key words there being "in Journey to the West."

You can't just randomly give out feats to characters in Journey to the West from characters from a completely different franchise.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Shouldnt we compare their feat with other franchise because of this thread purpose?


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> Key words there being "in Journey to the West."
> 
> You can't just randomly give out feats to characters in Journey to the West from characters from a completely different franchise.



I didn't.

I just said that the Monkey King in Marvel was as weak as hell.

And that the Jade Emperor called Buddha to beat Wukong because nobody else could do it.


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 25, 2012)

In context of the previous posts of calling Buddha from Journey to the West a TOAA level being, it certainly looked like you were claiming/supporting that.

Specifically here:


> sun wukong is broken. If you want to know how powerful he is, look the being that defeat him. In most interpretation of wukong, that I find interesting is how they interpret Buddha. They dont call Buddha a God. They call him the very essence of the universe, life,etc. He's above God lvl. Put it in Marvel perspective that equivalent to One Above All.
> 
> So, if it took a One Above All char lvl to knock him down, how broken do you he is?





> I swear they claimed that Buddha was the strongest deity in Journey to the West. That is why the Jade Emperor had to call him for help.


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## Island (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Although I would like to say, the Chinese were aware of Rome and Europeans during the Ming dynasty.





Huntring said:


> Only vaguely aware.
> 
> And also almost everyone had no idea how big Rome or the Europeons are.


Err, no.

Zheng He and his fleet of 100+ ships went to Mecca in the 1420s, and the Chinese actively traded with Dutch, Portuguese, and Spanish merchants for the next two centuries.

The Ming Empire definitely had knowledge of Europe, Arabia, and East Asia considering it actively traded with states that existed there and even visited them at some points.

But either way, continue your thread.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> In context of the previous posts of calling Buddha from Journey to the West a TOAA level being, it certainly looked like you were claiming/supporting that.
> 
> Specifically here:



I claimed that he was Strongest Deity because he is. Why else would the Jade Emperor call upon him?


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## ThanatoSeraph (Sep 25, 2012)

You're dodging the point.

In the context of the previous few posts, and the post you were replying to, it looked like you were claiming that Buddah from Journey to the West is at TOAA's level.


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## Huntring (Sep 25, 2012)

Shock Therapy said:


> This makes no sense.



Inside joke.



kluang said:


> Wikis are not complete.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And a lot of this could be considered hyperbole.

Also fact of the matter is, the Budha's best feats are defeating the Garuda and Sun Wukong.  Other then that he has never had the chance to go all out.

TOAA on the other hand, has far more stronger people to powerscale to.



Linkofone said:


> Apparently, all of Wukong's special abilities have "No limit Fallacies", which I personally think is not true, I do not have enough evidence that he could beat DBZ universe alone.



It's not just Wukong that has NLF.  It applies to everyone here.  Prevents arguements such as genjutsu could take down Goku and shit like that.



Island said:


> Err, no.
> 
> Zheng He and his fleet of 100+ ships went to Mecca in the 1420s, and the Chinese actively traded with Dutch, Portuguese, and Spanish merchants for the next two centuries.
> 
> ...





Meh, my Chinese history is rusty as fuck but I'm pretty sure that the average citizen a least didn't know of Europe well.  Only well educated people and even then it's rare.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

ThanatoSeraph said:


> You're dodging the point.
> 
> In the context of the previous few posts, and the post you were replying to, it looked like you were claiming that Buddah from Journey to the West is at TOAA's level.



Explain to me how i am dodging the point? 

From when the dude posted, I posted: 

"True....but....people said that he doesn't have feats.....so.......I honestly don't know how to explain.

I mean....I understand both sides..." 

I replied solely because I doubt people would believe people thinking that any version of Buddha is TOAA level. 

Then I responded to your comment.

Then stated that Buddha was the strongest in Journey to the West. Which still doesn't help me my Sun Wukong argument.

Anyways, not the point.


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## Invincible Black Knight (Sep 25, 2012)

Wukong can cause his hairs to become an army of himself, only to change back and reattach when the fight's over.

So fighting Wukong could mean fighting an army of Wukongs.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Journey to the West have been told, retold, retcon,rewrite since the 16th century. I bet the each interpretation of Wukong is much broken then before. 

This is how Buddha defeat Wukong.

Buddha makes a bet with wukong he couldnt leave the palm of his hand.

in one interpretation Wukong smugly agree and in second arrive at the end of the world

another version  he arrive at the end of the universe. 

Nothing was visible except for five pillars, and Wukong surmised that he had reached the ends of Universe/Earth. To prove his trail, he marked the pillars with a phrase declaring himself "the great sage equal to heaven". In other version he urinated on the pillar.

 Then, he was surprised to find that the five "pillars" he had found were in fact the five fingers of the Buddha's hand. The Buddha began claiming he is the Universe/World itself ( depends on which version) and he never leave his palm of his hand.


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## Saint Saga (Sep 25, 2012)

So buddah is shaka and wukong is ikki  ?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 25, 2012)

the original version


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Dunno the original, but modern interpretations are using the universe one


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## Zeno (Sep 25, 2012)

How did I stumble into the retard section of the OBD? I haven't heard a single feat from this guy since I started reading.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 25, 2012)

Just to point things out for people going all apeshit about him beating buddha, you guys should remember buddha is just a human who reached enlightment with meditation 
it's made pretty clear in eastern cultures that a buddha isn't a god


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

^QFT

Even in journey to the west they never refer him as a god. because if he is a god, he must be a subject of jade emperor, king of the gods.

the same with sun wukong. they never call him a god.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 25, 2012)

This thread is basically
>Making use of titles like god  to make things seem impressive
>Using text open to interpretation or possible flowery language

Look I'm not arguing for DB vs Sun Wukong but better arguments are needed, Goku is stronger than the gods of his universe does that mean anything in certain other verses? Siddhartha Gautama/Buddha was not some God, he was a philosopher who reached enlightenment through meditation. I suppose certain works power him up but you will need to give feats or something to use like a statement of power especially something on par with moon busters and higher. Being immortal does'nt mean a character can't die from anything, there are levels of immortality and unless this character's immortality is that H4X he can die. 

If you're going to put the character against planet busting or higher verses then yes you'll need more than "he beat a god" or "he beat celestial beings" considering celestial is just a fancy way for heavenly/ divine/Godlike, offcourse if they are star level/constellation beings then it's impressive but even that seems debated here.


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## Nevermind (Sep 25, 2012)

kluang said:


> sun wukong is broken. If you want to know how powerful he is, look the being that defeat him. In most interpretation of wukong, that I find interesting is how they interpret Buddha. They dont call Buddha a God. They call him the very essence of the universe, life,etc. He's above God lvl. Put it in Marvel perspective that equivalent to One Above All.
> 
> So, if it took a One Above All char lvl to knock him down, how broken do you he is?


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 25, 2012)

Let me correct that, universal is cubed being level(lots of universal characters in fiction who are not omnipotent but let's not open that can of worms) and most of that seems like flowery language to describe his enlightment and wisdom. Most versions?Then you need to specify the canon here.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Let me correct that, universal is cubed being level and most of that seems like flowery language to describe his enlightment and wisdom. Most versions?Then you need to specify the canon here.



I dont know buddha's feat in chinese literature. I know the writers power him up. Other then the challenge with wukong, he slams wukong back to earth, put a mountain on top of him and a seal to keep him in. Other then that nothing.


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## Nevermind (Sep 25, 2012)

So he loses to DBZ then, check.

How about YYH? Though I think he gets his ass kicked there too.


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 25, 2012)

If that Buddha is mountain level or higher than YYH seems like a good match. He won't go far however.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Who Wukong? He probably can kick that over buff guy.

journey to the west is pretty much like a battle manga.With buddhist theme.

its one fight to another fight. They arrive at one town fight demons. goes to another town fight demons. then a few boss fights here and there with that ox king dude, and that white bone demon lady, some 3 eye god of war with his dog and do all that, all the way to india. 

Its pretty much then grand daddy of dbz, YYH, Naruto


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 25, 2012)

> Best speed feat? Like it was mentioned in that link in the op he could leap 108000 li in one bound. 108000 is equal to 54000 km if that website is correct.




leaping 54,000 km at a 45 degrees angle needs 23 km/s initial speed


discounting drag


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## Ice (Sep 25, 2012)

In Mach terms?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Sep 25, 2012)

Mach    ~68


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> Just to point things out for people going all apeshit about him beating buddha, you guys should remember buddha is just a human who reached enlightment with meditation
> it's made pretty clear in eastern cultures that a buddha isn't a god



Deity, please don't confuse Indian culture with Eastern Asian cultures.

In at least Chinese culture, Buddha is higher up the chain.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

And Buddha in my opinion is faster than thought because as soon as Wukong did his leap, buddha's fingers were already there.

And "One more thing", I never mentioned once that Buddha was god, I said Deity, although I consider him very powerful, the most powerful in Journey to the West.


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## Zeno (Sep 25, 2012)

Feats? Numbers? Anyone?


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Feats? Numbers? Anyone?



His Ruyi Jingu Bang held up the Milky Way, the Chinese had a decent idea about what they were talking about.

Sun Wukong could lift 8 metric tons easily. - not trying to impress, just had to state some facts. 

And to the guy that said the Sun Wukong beat Buddha, no, where did you even get that from?


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## Tranquil Fury (Sep 25, 2012)

> And Buddha in my opinion is faster than thought because as soon as Wukong did his leap, buddha's fingers were already there



Speed of thought type feats are common in fiction and not quantifiable, though I guess faster than the thing/character they did their feat against. Otherwise "he moves at speed thought" or "faster than speed of thought" are just there to make it sound cooler than it is.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 25, 2012)

> Sun Wukong could lift 8 metric tons easily. - not trying to impress, just had to state some facts



not impressive at all. that's pretty much the weight of a truck. so yeah, not impressive


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> not impressive at all. that's pretty much the weight of a truck. so yeah, not impressive



Ehh, thats why I said, simply stating facts. Not trying to impress.


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## HeavyMetalThunder (Sep 25, 2012)

in fiction you have characters lifting milions or even bilions and trilions of metric tons all the time.
but that leap thing sure is more impressive.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

HeavyMetalThunder said:


> in fiction you have characters lifting milions or even bilions and trilions of metric tons all the time.
> but that leap thing sure is more impressive.



All I said was he lift it easily, and it was 8.5 metric tons. 

When Buddha threw his hand on Wukong, the only reason why he couldn't get out or lift the mountain is because Buddha had a magical charm on it that simply would not allow Wukong to lift it.

I have no problem saying that Wukong is fast.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)




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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> And Buddha in my opinion is faster than thought because as soon as Wukong did his leap, buddha's fingers were already there.



Buddha finger was there not because he was fast. Like Buddha said, I am the universe and the universe is me. Wukong never left Buddha's palm. That bet was one sided, Wukong never gonna win, no matter how fast he is, he can travel to the edge of galaxy or hide in a planet's core, he will never leave Buddha's palm.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

kluang said:


> Buddha finger was there not because he was fast. Like Buddha said, I am the universe and the universe is me. Wukong never left Buddha's palm. That bet was one sided, Wukong never gonna win, no matter how fast he is, he can travel to the edge of galaxy or hide in a planet's core, he will never leave Buddha's palm.



Well yes, Kinda, in different versions, Buddha stated different things (some versions said that Wukong was always in Buddha's hands, other states that Wukong cannot escape and Buddha will always be one step ahead), but yes the lesson is the same.


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## Zeno (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> His Ruyi Jingu Bang held up the Milky Way, the Chinese had a decent idea about what they were talking about.



So now he is galaxy level?


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> So now he is galaxy level?



Before anyone starts to shitstorm again, I never specifically stated that.

His Jingu bang can extend to any size he wishes. Now people can debate saying that it has a certain extend to it, but judging on Chinese tales, they usually give a limit on how large or powerful something gets. Like the weight of Jingu Bang.

Now again, I would like to say some of his more credible feats:

Defeating 100,000 warriors of the Celestial Army, each of them equivolent to a cosmic embodiment, including all 28 constellations, four heavenly kings, and Nezha (The kid with the fire wheels).

Again, I would like to say that since they are are Chinese deities, I could not tell you the power levels.

I would also like to add that:

The Jingu Bang controls ocean tides. When he took it out and claimed it, this drove fear into the magical beings of the sea and threw the sea itself into confusion, since nothing but the pillar could control the ebb and flow of the ocean's tides. In addition to taking the magical staff, Wukong also defeated the dragons of the four seas in battle. 

And again, wrote his name out of the book of life and death ... blah blah blah.

Survived the severe Samadhi fires for 49 days, although i can't say the most intense, that would be the true Samadhi fire.


And at the end of the Journey, Wukong reaches Buddhahood; 

The Nirvana Sutra mentions the Buddha-nature as "the boundless Dharmadhatu". The Lotus Sutra and especially such tantras as the Kunjed Gyalpo Tantra give expression to a vision of the Buddha as the omnipresent, all-knowing, liberative essence and deathless Reality of all things.


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## Zeno (Sep 25, 2012)

Sounds like he would stop at Nappa.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

Zengetto said:


> Sounds like he would stop at Nappa.



Sorry, I was trying to type a lot of information about Sun Wukong.
If you don't mind, please reading that who post again.

I mean, if you think Nappa can beat Sun Wukong, its fine.


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## Zeno (Sep 25, 2012)

Look, based on limited feats and unclarity, it's going to have to be Nappa.


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## randomsurfer (Sep 25, 2012)

Why would these any of these embodiment matter when they never show equivalent feats.


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## kluang (Sep 25, 2012)

Linkofone said:


> Before anyone starts to shitstorm again, I never specifically stated that.
> 
> His Jingu bang can extend to any size he wishes. Now people can debate saying that it has a certain extend to it, but judging on Chinese tales, they usually give a limit on how large or powerful something gets. Like the weight of Jingu Bang.
> 
> ...



You just quoting whatever is written without knowing what it means dont you?

You are confusing people with this. Even I'm getting confused.


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## Linkofone (Sep 25, 2012)

kluang said:


> You just quoting whatever is written without knowing what it means dont you?
> 
> You are confusing people with this. Even I'm getting confused.



Most of this is from Journey to the West. I don't see how I am confusing people. 

I defined the power of Wukong's weapon, and told people of his feats.

--------------------------------------------------------------------
Although I cannot tell of the 100,000 Celestial's power.

Wukong however, fought Erlang Shen.

According to one of his legends:

God Erlang Suppressed Fire Dragon. "Legend goes, on one of the northern mountains of Dujiang Dam lived a fire dragon which was raging the common people. Libing asked his son-God Erlang to subdue it. God Erlang climbed onto Yulei Mountain and became a giant. He was as tall as the sky. He wrapped clouds on his waist and cut a tree to make a carrying pole. Then he carried *two mountains* at a time to build the dam. After he brought 66 mountains the dam was built. God Erlang got water from Pacifying Dragon Pool to put into the dam. At length the fire dragon was subdued." *Again, not too impressive, but you know....gotta give that information*. After all, this is a legend that was made hundreds of years ago. 

Also seems like a few years ago people had a discussion like this before:


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## Heavenly King (Sep 25, 2012)

I am pretty sure Sun Wukung is a mountain buster from what I remember.


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## Zeno (Sep 26, 2012)

What you said isn't necessarily a feat, since we have no basis for comparison.


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## kluang (Sep 26, 2012)

Howbout this

We list down what he is and everything he's done prior to the journey so no one is confuse.

1. He's not a god. He's the primordial energy of chaos given shape.
2. He learn martial arts and the 72 transformation from a sage and was given a cloud to ride as a symbol he pass.
3. His staff isnt the heaven needle that separate heaven and earth. His staff is the sea needle, belonging to the dragon king of the east. 
4.He defeat the the dragons alongside their 4 kings. 
5.He went to hell. beat up demons, the hell kings, the hell judges. He tore and destroy the book of the dead. Hell is in chaos for years, they cant judge any souls because the record is destroyed.
6. The heaven sent an army to take him to heaven to be judge for his crime. He sent them packing.
7. He was trick, the heaven by giving the stable boy job with awesome title.When he realized what happen, he sent the celestial horse loose and force and humiliate the higher ups in heaven to recognized him as their equal and force them to give him a better job.
8.He an orchard boy now. He's not that smart. When he realize, he eats every longevity peach and immortality pills. Now he's immortal.
9.He go apeshit in heaven. He then ran back to his mountain, gathering allies. Demonic allies.
10. The heaven sent a huge army to the mountain, wukong led his pack of demons allies
11.Heaven defeats Wukong with a cheap shot. His allies scattered and hunted.
12.They imprison him in a cauldron. Like King piccolo except its not a rice cooker. They hope the sacred fire would burn him to death.
13.Wukong absorb the fire, increasing his power lvl.
14. He went apeshit in heaven. Again. He tore down the heaven palace's and sits on  king of the gods throne acting like the boss.
15. Buddha came, make the bet and Wukong lose. Imprison.

Link removed


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## Linkofone (Sep 26, 2012)

kluang said:


> Howbout this
> 
> We list down what he is and everything he's done prior to the journey so no one is confuse.
> 
> ...



It was written that the Ryui Jingu bang anchored the heavenly river, which is the milky way. 

Then he was asked to accompany the Tang Monk to the west.

Just some info.

Edit: ok, i read it wrong.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 26, 2012)

Huntring said:


> Best speed feat?  Like it was mentioned in that link in the op he could leap 108000 li in one bound.  108000 is equal to 54000 km if that website is correct.
> 
> Country busting because he temporily matched the Garuda whose wing span covered up the entire sky around the world.
> 
> ...



Is the bolded text accepted?


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