# Savage Opress vs. Kid Goku



## Soledad Eterna (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm bored. Who wins this?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Kid Goku with ease. Faster, stronger, and has far greater firepower.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Opress stabs him in the face.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Opress stabs him in the face.


Only for his saber to fail to burn his skin and Goku blasts him with a Kamehameha.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Wrong, try again.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Wrong, try again.


Goku was bullet proof in chapter one of the manga. He got a huge durability increase by the time of the 21st and 22nd tournament. Hell, during his battle with King Piccolo he survived a city buster while damage.

You claim Savage Oppress can survive a fight with him when he has ZERO other EU feats besides his sub-par performance in Clone Wars? Though I wouldn't be surprised if you claimed that Palpatine could beat Freeza.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Keep up the non-sequiters and red herrings.

It's not making a difference.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Keep up the non-sequiters and red herrings.
> 
> It's not making a difference.


Show me how Savage can even tag even 21st Budokai Goku. He's not very smart, focusing solely on brute force. Goku can easily fool him with a triple zanzoken. 

If you hadn't noticed, Clone Wars Jedi Feats operate on the same level as they do in the movies. IE, not very high.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Wrong again. 

You can keep spouting the same shit but I'll happily just accept it as a concession since your running in circles here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Wrong again.
> 
> You can keep spouting the same shit but I'll happily just accept it as a concession since your running in circles here.


I'm asking you for proof on your side. Show me. Show me some feats from Oppress.

Show me some feats of Oppress that can stand up to Kid Goku instead of showing off your bias for Star Wars characters.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

He matches Obi-Wan and Anakin up to that point, including other EU feats. Including the same Obi-Wan who can bullet-time against 10,000 people shooting at him from less then a dozen or so meters away with fully automatic hypersonic traveling blasts.

Get over it.

Crying bias means nothing when you've shown absolutely nothing and crying wolf even goes to give further credit you have no idea on the other side's scale. He can mind-fuck Goku, Force Choke to either destroy his organs, asphyxiate him, or just stab him. 

Why am I even responding to you, I've had you on ignore for years.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> He matches Obi-Wan and Anakin up to that point, including other EU feats. Including the same Obi-Wan who can bullet-time against 10,000 people shooting at him from less then a dozen or so meters away with fully automatic hypersonic traveling blasts.


Again, if you haven't noticed-_Clone Wars operates on the same level as the movies_. 

You really don't want to apply EU feats to a character who has none, and you ignore how Clone Wars portrays Jedi and Sith.




> Crying bias means nothing when you've shown absolutely nothing and crying wolf even goes to give further credit you have no idea on the other side's scale.


You've shown bias for Star Wars ever since I started posting here.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

> Again, if you haven't noticed-Clone Wars operates on the same level as the movies.
> 
> You really don't want to apply EU feats to a character who has none, and you ignore how Clone Wars portrays Jedi and Sith.



You are incorrect, the EU is still cannon. So the feats are useable


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

So in a nutshell: No rebuttal, no ability to refute, and no idea of what your talking about.

Back to ignore you go.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> So in a nutshell: No rebuttal, no ability to refute, and no idea of what your talking about.
> 
> Back to ignore you go.


It is a rebuttle. You apply EU feats to a character who was just written for the TV series. You apply EU feats for Anakin and Obi-wan despite them operating in a far lower level in the TV series. Show me-in the series- Anakin and Obi-wan bullet timing 10,000 soldiers (which I think is an exaggeration on your part since I read Star Wars: Republic and that has never happened). 

You ignore Dragon Ball feats.



Es said:


> You are incorrect, the EU is still cannon. So the feats are useable


EU is C-Canon. CLone Wars is T-Canon. Its close to G-Canon. And from the feats in Clone Wars? They operate on G-Canon level. Thus-Obi-wan and Anakin never dodged 10,000 soldiers firing at them.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

>Still doesn't know how canon works
>Doesn't present any different argument or attempts to broach on why it works that way

So your entire argument is trolling?

K.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It is a rebuttle. You apply EU feats to a character who was just written for the TV series. You apply EU feats for Anakin and Obi-wan despite them operating in a far lower level in the TV series. Show me-in the series- Anakin and Obi-wan bullet timing 10,000 soldiers (which I think is an exaggeration on your part since I read Star Wars: Republic and that has never happened).


Same people, same universe that's why


> You ignore Dragon Ball feats.


Irrelevant, this isn't DB


> EU is C-Canon. CLone Wars is T-Canon. Its close to G-Canon. And from the feats in Clone Wars? They operate on G-Canon level. Thus-Obi-wan and Anakin never dodged 10,000 soldiers firing at them.



The novel this transpired in is is G-Cannon seeing it was adapted from the movie, derp


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

He doesn't know how canon works or the fact that thinks its all inseparable is another clue that makes it evident he has absolutely no idea what the fuck he's trying to claim. 

Not that it really hurts us since T and C canon contradictions have never been resolved as they are according to Chee still basically the same level. So again: fucking lol.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> >Still doesn't know how canon works
> >Doesn't present any different argument or attempts to broach on why it works that way
> 
> So your entire argument is trolling?
> ...


Trolling to you is because I don't agree with your assestment and wanking.

I watched Oppress's arc. He did NOTHING on the level of Kid Goku.

And how don't I know how canon works?

It's split into:

G-Canon: Movies and novelizations
T-Canon: Clone Wars series
C-Canon: The books, novels, games, and comic books
S-Canon: Databooks and guide books
N-Canon: Non-canon.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)




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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

More like stop applying feats for characters that didn't happen in the Clone Wars TV series and stop with the power inflation. I know its hard for someone like you and your guild, Fang, to actually look at Oppress's feats without applying other feats for him.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> *More like stop applying feats for characters that didn't happen in the Clone Wars TV series and stop with the power inflation*. I know its hard for someone like you and your guild, Fang, to actually look at Oppress's feats without applying other feats for him.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm sorry, the series in question is _Star Wars: The Clone Wars_. Oppress has no feats out of it. I know its hard for you guys to drop your Star Wars bias...

Savage Oppress Feats


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## Estrecca (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> More like stop applying feats for characters that didn't happen in the Clone Wars TV series and stop with the power inflation. I know its hard for someone like you and your guild, Fang, to actually look at Oppress's feats without applying other feats for him.



The gentleman is essentially correct in all counts. 

"Keeps up with Obi-Wan", by itself, is not a valid feat anymore than Deathstroke or Prometheus tripping the Flash is. 

Wanna argue that Obi Wan has better feats outside of The Clone Wars? That's a valid enough argument.  

Wanna argue that Obi Wan and Anakin (and Ventress and Doku) weren't using their A game when battling Opress? Not as valid an argument, but still within acceptable boundaries.

But using power scaling the way you are doing is like sending Deathstroke against Quicksilver and expecting Slade to win because after all he has managed to bring down the much faster and all-around powerful Flash.

EDIT: Oh and I'd appreciate the quote about Obi-Wan dodging tens of thousands of dudes shooting at him from a dozen meters. I'm curious.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I'm sorry, the series in question is _Star Wars: The Clone Wars_. Oppress has no feats out of it. I know its hard for you guys to drop your Star Wars bias...



Same universe, same feats. Now shuddup


> "Keeps up with Obi-Wan", by itself, is not a valid feat anymore than Deathstroke or Prometheus tripping the Flash is.



Except, they're no where near as fast as the Flash is normally, and Opress is a force user as is Obi Wan.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Es said:


> Same universe, same feats. Now shuddup


I posted Oppress's feats. The whole 'same universe, same feats' doesn't apply if they don't use them in the series in question.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I posted Oppress's feats. The whole 'same universe, same feats' doesn't apply if they don't use them in the series in question.



Then I'm just gonna laugh at you then since you won't get a clue. Starting now. Hahahahaha


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Es said:


> Then I'm just gonna laugh at you then since you won't get a clue. Starting now. Hahahahaha


More like I do understand canon more than you do. I know the levels. I know how they apply to each other. You mock and claim I don't...

And look at the fucking feats.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> But using power scaling the way you are doing is like sending Deathstroke against Quicksilver and expecting Slade to win because after all he has managed to bring down the much faster and all-around powerful Flash.



Awful analogy. 



> EDIT: Oh and I'd appreciate the quote about Obi-Wan dodging tens of thousands of dudes shooting at him from a dozen meters. I'm curious.



RoTS Obi-Wan deflecting the blaster fire from Grievous army on Utapu in the novelization.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

If T-canon completely trumps C-canon why hasn't there been a retcon to explain the discripencies between Labyrinth of Evil novel and the final episodes the TCW animated series during the Battle of Coruscant after 7 fucking years.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Awful analogy.


It applies perfectly. You just ignore it because you love Star Wars.




> RoTS Obi-Wan deflecting the blaster fire from Grievous army on Utapu in the novelization.


Cite the paragraph and the numbers.



Fang said:


> If T-canon completely trumps C-canon why hasn't there been a retcon to explain the discripencies between Labyrinth of Evil novel and the final episodes the TCW animated series during the Battle of Coruscant after 7 fucking years.


Because we're still in the _second year of the War_. We haven't reached the final year yet. You haven't noticed how many retcons in TCW have gone through already. 

Hell, watch the clips I posted. Honestly tell me Oppress has a chance against Goku after watching them all.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Here's a hint: No one cares about what you want. Burden of proof isn't on me.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Here's a hint: No one cares about what you want. Burden of proof isn't on me.


It is. I posted feats of both. You need to post feats which trumps Goku's survival of a citybuster as well as speed feats. You still don't get that The Clone Wars operates ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE MOVIES.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Wank.

Kid Goku never took a city buster from Piccolo Daimou. He's at best mach 15-20 in speed, and barring special instances of Ki amping, not that impressive for where the manga is, above a building buster or so in terms of physical strength.

Try again: You don't know what your talking about.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Wank.
> 
> Kid Goku never took a city buster from Piccolo Daimou. He's at best mach 15-20 in speed, and barring special instances of Ki amping, not that impressive for where the manga is, above a building buster or so.
> 
> Try again: You don't know what your talking about.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It applies perfectly. You just ignore it because you love Star Wars.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It is. I posted feats of both. You need to post feats which trumps Goku's survival of a citybuster as well as speed feats. You still don't get that The Clone Wars operates ON THE SAME LEVEL AS THE MOVIES.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Nope. Roshi's Ki blast in the 21st Budokai is a complete outlier and utterly disregarded here. And in the manga, Tienshinhan grabs Goku and uses bukujutsu to fly them both out of the way blast radius of Piccolo Daimou's Ki attack.

Try again with the wank.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Nope. Roshi's blaster is a complete outlier and utterly disregarded here. And in the manga, Tienshinhan grabs Goku and uses bukujutsu to fly out of the blast radius of Piccolo Daimou's attack.
> 
> Try again with the wank.


So you throw out feats you don't like huh? Roshi's first feat in the manga was destroying a mountain. He casually caught machine gun fire. And Goku is faster than that. 

And again, watch Oppress's feats.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm not throwing out anything here. Piccolo Daimou, Kami, Piccolo Jr, and 23rd Budokai Goku as well as 23rd Budokai Tienshinhan are all more powerful then Max Power Roshi and never showed the ability to bust moons. No one showed that until Piccolo did in the timeskip into Part II of the manga after the fight with Raditz and even that's iffy at that time.


More to the fact I actually know more about both series then you by a lot. The fact that you deliberately tried to use the anime instead of posting the scans sinks your credibility again, if it can even go down lower then what its already at.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Though I wouldn't be surprised if you claimed that Palpatine could beat Freeza.



Actually he can, due to the ability to survive as a spirit after the destruction of his physical body and possess people.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> I'm not throwing out anything here. Piccolo Daimou, Kami, Piccolo Jr, and 23rd Budokai Goku as well as 23rd Budokai Tienshinhan are all more powerful then Max Power Roshi and never showed the ability to bust moons. No one showed that until Piccolo did in the timeskip into Part II of the manga after the fight with Raditz and even that's iffy at that time.


Piccolo did it with a single hand without any problem in Z. Why shouldn't Piccolo Daimou, Kami, Piccolo Jr. and 23rd Budokai Goku be able to? You use power scaling.



> More to the fact I actually know more about both series then you by a lot. The fact that you deliberately tried to use the anime instead of posting the scans sinks your credibility again, if it can even go down lower then what its already at.


Most scans are of such shitty quality, you can hardly tell what's happening.



Endless Mike said:


> Actually he can, due to the ability to survive as a spirit after the destruction of his physical body and possess people.


Still doesn't have anything that can actually hurt Freeza.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Piccolo did it with a single hand without any problem in Z.



Which is still a blatant disregard considering Piccolo is weaker to Raditz whose greatest showing was mountain range busting. Are you next going to claim Ki blasts are FTL because of that one scene?



> Why shouldn't Piccolo Daimou, Kami, Piccolo Jr. and 23rd Budokai Goku be able to? You use power scaling.



Because you have no proof of it.



> Most scans are of such shitty quality, you can hardly tell what's happening.



Then post the scans, oh wait you can't, because Goku never took a city-buster from Piccolo Daimou in the manga. Again: Tenshinhan grabbed him and flew them both out of the way of the blast. Piccolo Daimou gets winded, they fight more, Goku takes him out with a Ki enhanced punch.

End of story.



> Still doesn't have anything that can actually hurt Freeza.



Except telepathy, telekinesis, astral possession, and Force Storms. Or life draining him.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 21, 2012)

Why would he want to hurt the nice, powerful new body he would be taking over?


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Link removed
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Want to try again?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> Link removed
> ...


...didn't you notice what I was talking about of shitty quality?


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2012)

Oh gee, Star Wars wank. You don't see THAT everyday in the OBD.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 21, 2012)

Palpatine did something similar to Darth Nihilus on Byss.

Keep in mind that it took only the majority of the energy of the humans on Earth (enough to make them tired) to make a genki dama strong enough to kill Kid Buu. Completely draining a planet so much that all life dies would be way beyond that.

And you seriously don't see how the ability to mindwipe trillions of people at once could hurt a guy with no mental defenses whatsoever?

Do you think Professor X couldn't hurt Frieza either, if he got a free shot on him?


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> I demand that you expose the awfulness of it in greater length.



Because it is, let's put this in a Star Wars example: Savage Opress is as good as his brother Maul. Maul is an extraordinarily powerful Force-User as befitting a Sith Lord, Savage get's props for being further augmented and enhanced by the sorcery of the Nightsisters and the dark side.

This is evidence when he has the endurance not too mention the durability to tank being shot dozens of times in close range and still have the power to send those battle droids flying and survive his wounds all the way to Dathomir. Not too mention immediately before that keeping on the offensive against both Obi-Wan and Anakin after fighting both Dooku/Tyranus and Ventress at the same time when the latter pair were forced to team up to deal with his brute power.

So yes, saying he's able to match Obi-Wan, Ventress, and Anakin yet making a stupid analogy like its comparing Taskmaster to Flash is out of the ball park.




> Because we see the whole scene without gaps in the sequence from Obi-Wan entering the Separatist command center to his starting the duel against Grievous. And there is no space where you can fit this, which is what you are talking about.



I'm aware of the differences in the film and the novel, your also aware that I don't have to make it know to you of Stover's statement on the differences on the novel being specifically line-edited and choosen there as a wordsmith from Lucas himself.




> This is a textbook case of irreconcilable discrepancy between levels of canon, which no amount of handwaving can solve. Up there with the retcon concerning the two deaths of Even Piell, as a matter of fact.



Which has nothing to do with the LoT and TCW contradiction which you just plainly ignored as Leland Chee not touching with a 10-foot pole on the canonical status of that incident for 7 years still.





> *snip*



No.



> Meaning that this alleged feat of Obi-Wan exists in the very same limbo of non-canonicity as Even Piell's first death in Coruscant.



No. You don't get to cherry pick on this:



> *G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon,* though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).





> Though I did not personally watch him do it, *I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.*
> 
> *What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone.
> 
> Period.*



Some more reinforcement again, ad naseum:



> *G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon.[sic]*



Yes there are differences between the novelization of the film and the film itself; yet those differences are there directly originate and are created because of George's direct involvement in the novel. Novels are naturally C-canon, film novelizations are G-canon, the film novelization has George's direct hand in it through its entirety as we know from him. And even if otherwise, it doesn't invalidate the feat. 

Therefore they both exist canonically. Let's get over the fact this is nowhere as bad as Transformers way of dealing with canon. I don't have time for this nor do I want to keep arguing with you on this.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Palpatine did something similar to Darth Nihilus on Byss.
> 
> Keep in mind that it took only the majority of the energy of the humans on Earth (enough to make them tired) to make a genki dama strong enough to kill Kid Buu. Completely draining a planet so much that all life dies would be way beyond that.


Freeza took a Genki Dama that took ki from multiple planets without going all out.


> And you seriously don't see how the ability to mindwipe trillions of people at once could hurt a guy with no mental defenses whatsoever?


You know that scene in question is up for interpretation.


> Do you think Professor X couldn't hurt Frieza either, if he got a free shot on him?


Xavier of course can hurt Freeza mentally, but not Sidious.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Freeza took a Genki Dama that took ki from multiple planets without going all out.



Which still only took a very tiny bit from each of them, and was significantly weaker than the one used on Kid Buu.

Unless you think Frieza is tougher than Buu is.



> You know that scene in question is up for interpretation.



Not the point. You said telepathy can't hurt him.



> Xavier of course can hurt Freeza mentally, but not Sidious.



Why not? He has no mental defenses whatsoever.


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Why not? He has no mental defenses whatsoever.



I'm going to keep this in my back pocket and save it for the next time I decide to make an Itachi vs. DBZ thread.


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...didn't you notice what I was talking about of shitty quality?



Your lying. You made the claim that it was the same in the anime, as it was in the manga. It's not. He never tanked any city-busting attacks from Piccolo Daimou, old or young. Your excuse verbatim was "shitty manga" quality, which doesn't change what didn't happen. 

Anyway on the tangent of Freeza vs Sidious; the former has no way of countering Sidious telepathy, range of it, or his soul/mind-fucking technique or putting him down for good.

Having some TK >=< telepathic or astral defenses. Nor Sidious turning an entire planet into a nexus of dark side energy and feeding off basically 20 billion people at his leisure.


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## Endless Mike (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm going to keep this in my back pocket and save it for the next time I decide to make an Itachi vs. DBZ thread.



Difference is Itashit's mental abilities are much more limited, he can't actually mind control anyone (apart from that one-off thing he gave to Naruto that was used already), shut down someone's mind, erase/alter their memories, etc. He can just create illusions in their mind that anyone with enough mental fortitude can shrug off.

Assuming he doesn't get blitzed first of course.


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## Light (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> I'm going to keep this in my back pocket and save it for the next time I decide to make an Itachi vs. DBZ thread.



Itachi gets blitzed by 95% of the DBZ cast anyway.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Oh gee, more of me being an asshurt cunt



I agree


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## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Difference is Itashit's mental abilities are much more limited, he can't actually mind control anyone (apart from that one-off thing he gave to Naruto that was used already), shut down someone's mind, erase/alter their memories, etc.



Actually, Itachi is capable of hypnosis himself:

Link removed

Sasuke also used the same kind of Genjutsu on Manda:

Link removed

And again on a fodder-nin to learn Killer B's whereabouts:

Link removed



> He can just create illusions in their mind that anyone with enough mental fortitude can shrug off.



Takes more than a little mental fortitude to shrug off Tsukuyomi. Orochimaru was sweating bullets just under the influence of Kasegui, and that sick fuck usually *likes* things rough.

But this is all a little off-topic. 



> Assuming he doesn't get blitzed first of course.





Light said:


> Itachi gets blitzed by 95% of the DBZ cast anyway.





Did that make you guys feel good about yourselves? Huh?



Es said:


> I agree



Who are you?

Scratch that.

I don't care.


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## Light (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually, Itachi is capable of hypnosis himself:
> 
> Link removed
> 
> ...



I'm just saying, if you know Itachi's gonna get blitzed, why would you ever make an Itachi vs Dbz thread?


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## Estrecca (Jan 21, 2012)

Fang said:


> Because it is, let's put this in a Star Wars example: Savage Opress is as good as his brother Maul.



By all means, prove that this is indeed the case in fact, rather than potential.



> Maul is an extraordinarily powerful Force-User as befitting a Sith Lord, Savage get's props for being further augmented and enhanced by the sorcery of the Nightsisters and the dark side.



Maul also had literally decades of training under Palpatine, while Opress only had a few weeks of extremely half assed training from Dooku and Nightsister steroids.



> This is evidence when he has the endurance not too mention the durability to tank being shot dozens of times in close range



He uses full-body plate armor which handily explains that durability of his and I, as a matter of fact, don't remember him ever getting shot in his fleshy, exposed body parts. Could be wrong about this, but if this is the case I would require proof to be convinced.



> Not too mention immediately before that keeping on the offensive against both Obi-Wan and Anakin after fighting both Dooku/Tyranus and Ventress at the same time when the latter pair were forced to team up to deal with his brute power.



Ventress and Dooku didn't "team up" except in the vaguest sense of the word. They got blindsided by Opress who lifts them with TK, then throws them against the wall. They then dodge his bull rush, get knocked to the other wall with a TK AoE. 

Then happens the only thing that can be interpreted as "teaming up" when Ventress hits him with TK at the same time Dooku zaps him with lightning, which knocks Opress to the other side of the room. Follows Dooku trying to zorch Ventress with lightning she parries with her saber and the Count jumping down his escape chute.

Link removed



> I'm aware of the differences in the film and the novel, your also aware that I don't have to make it know to you of Stover's statement on the differences on the novel being specifically line-edited and choosen there as a wordsmith from Lucas himself.



Actually, what you mention is unknown to me.

It is also totally irrelevant. George Lucas could have personally stamped the Official Seal of Totally Canon in that and even this wouldn't be enough to change the fact that the movie is being contradicted in irreconcilable fashion by something else.

Thanks to the way canon works, said something else automatically goes out of the window, unless a rationalization can be presented (which is impossible to present in this instance).



> Which has nothing to do with the LoT and TCW contradiction which you just plainly ignored as Leland Chee not touching with a 10-foot pole on the canonical status of that incident for 7 years still.



A continuity mess between two different products of the lesser canon is not quite the same as a contradiction between the highest canon and something else.  

Incidentally. You don't want to try to bury me with quotes about canon policy. Stover's Word of God doesn't go far enough to justify the contradiction and if I felt so inclined I could also raid the usual quote mines to support my position. Which rather conveniently I can do with one of the quotes you yourself have provided.



> G-canon is George Lucas Canon; the six Episodes and anything directly provided to Lucas Licensing by Lucas (including unpublished production notes from him or his production department that are never seen by the public). Elements originating with Lucas in the movie novelizations, reference books, and other sources are also G-canon, *though anything created by the authors of those sources is C-canon*. When the matter of changes between movie versions arises, the most recently released editions are deemed superior to older ones, as they correct mistakes, improve consistency between the two trilogies, and express Lucas's current vision of the Star Wars universe most closely. *The deleted scenes included on the DVDs are also considered G-canon (when they're not in conflict with the movie).*



So to sum up: If novelizations show something that the movie doesn't cover and are inserted by the author C canon status may apply. If something contradicts the movie, movie trumps something. 

Now, since you've requested that we don't take the matter any further, I'm gonna finish here this line of discussion by stating that I think that my position is fundamentally solid and that particular feat of Kenobi should be ignored.


----------



## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Estrecca said:


> By all means, prove that this is indeed the case in fact, rather than potential.



His handling of Obi-Wan and Anakin and his general displays of power with scaling to that level showcase what I'm saying here. I don't remember Maul deflecting blaster fire from dozens of shooters, pushing and dominating more powerful and skilled Obi-Wan not too mention Anakin Skywalker in a direct duel twice in their confrontations, and so forth.


----------



## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Who are you?
> 
> Scratch that.
> 
> I don't care.



Your actually trying to imply your anyone of note here even though all your known for here is being complete laughingstock? Hahahahahahahahahahah


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 21, 2012)

Light said:


> I'm just saying, if you know Itachi's gonna get blitzed, why would you ever make an Itachi vs Dbz thread?



You don't know me very well. 



Es said:


> Your actually trying to imply your anyone of note here even though all your known for here is being complete laughingstock? Hahahahahahahahahahah



It's good to be something. 

No one here has an opinion worth losing sleep over anyway, so if I can make a few people chuckle, I'm happy with that.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jan 21, 2012)

You know if you hit anakin and obi wan with the idiot ball to allow savage opress to fight equally with them(for any amount of time) that brings them down to his level it doesn't bring him up to their level. That whole deathstroke tagging the Flash and making the Justice League look like morons is an apt comparison because to do that you have to bring the Justice League down to his level but that suddenly it isn't applicable because its star wars because there's too big of a gap in power. 

No there apparently isn't a reason to say that a sith who has been trained for a few months engaging jedi who have trained there whole life isn't an example of a huge discrepancy in power. .


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## Fang (Jan 21, 2012)

Raigen Effect is in full when Matta tries to assert some sort of knowledge on Star Wars. This thread has come full fucking circle.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> *No one here has an opinion worth losing sleep over anyway*, so if I can make a few people chuckle, I'm happy with that.



Like yourself? And we're using facts not opinions dummy.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 21, 2012)

Yeah Kid Goku should take this easily as if any DBZ character is gonna have trouble against a newbie sith or jedi.
I'm amazed someone is actually trying to inflate a random character who's skill level is made blatantly obvious right in front of us to the pinnacle because characters X and Y didn't immediately stomp him.

If you think this is possible why don't we start making Jedi padawan X vs King Piccolo or Raditz


----------



## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

Matta Clatta said:


> Yeah Kid Goku should take this easily as if any DBZ character is gonna have trouble against a newbie sith or jedi.
> I'm amazed someone is actually trying to inflate a random character who's skill level is made blatantly obvious right in front of us to the pinnacle because characters X and Y didn't immediately stomp him.


Your implying the guy wasn't uber and holding his own against force users more experienced then him


> If you think this is possible why don't we start making Jedi padawan X vs King Piccolo or Raditz



You know what, fuck this I'm done with this bullshit. I gonna play TOR now.


----------



## Keollyn (Jan 21, 2012)

I'm going to say Goku mainly becaue Goku would flipthefuckout and yank his eyeball out.

He has a thing for eyeballs.


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 21, 2012)

Quick note concerning something that potentially involves a matter of severe personal irritation. 



Endless Mike said:


> And you seriously don't see how the ability to mindwipe trillions of people at once could hurt a guy with no mental defenses whatsoever?



If this refers to the burial of the Lusankya, the planetary mindwipe was never anything but idle speculation from rebels with no clear understanding of the extent of Palpatine's abilities and then perpetuated by an Essential Guide that is an in-universe document that has been overriden/retconned in several instances, including this one.

The specifics of this incident were finally set in stone by Starships of the Galaxy, which establishes in no uncertain terms (which haven't been changed since) that the Lusankya was lowered inside a giant metal box and that Imperial PR said that it was a shield generator for Coruscant's planetary shield.



If the mind-wipe of trillions refers to something else, then never mind the above and continue with your regularly scheduled discussion.


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jan 21, 2012)

Wait is that a new essential guide? because I haven't seen anything by that name in stores...maybe Books-a-Million is being stupid again


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## Estrecca (Jan 21, 2012)

Emperor Joker said:


> Wait is that a new essential guide? because I haven't seen anything by that name in stores...maybe Books-a-Million is being stupid again


----------



## Emperor Joker (Jan 21, 2012)

Oh no wonder I haven't seen it, it's a guidebook for the rpg. looks like something for me to buy regardless


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## Ceria (Jan 21, 2012)

To be honest i wasn't sure how this would play out. but i must say it's been amusing to read. I wasn't sure on the comparability of Savage and goku but i would've been wrong in assuming goku could've won. 

I will say that i'm stunned at how somebody could consider that Palpatine couldn't best Freeza in combat. Palpatine could break his neck using the force. He wouldn't even have to be in the same system. I don't see how any character from any series could defend against that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ceria said:


> I will say that i'm stunned at how somebody could consider that Palpatine couldn't best Freeza in combat. Palpatine could break his neck using the force. He wouldn't even have to be in the same system. I don't see how any character from any series could defend against that.


...Palpatine breaking Freeza's neck with a Force Choke...despite Freeza being able to survive in space AND-injured before hand, the explosion of a planet.


----------



## Ceria (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...Palpatine breaking Freeza's neck with a Force Choke...*despite Freeza being able to survive in space AND-injured before hand, the explosion of a planet.*



Your point? Vader force choked Prince Xzior from systems away. And he killed the admiral of the Executor simply by having line of sight through a video screen. I see no reason that Palpatine couldn't do this also, it was hinted in the Plagueis novel that he had the ability to break necks using the force from systems away.

Freeza's durability is irrelevant compared to a being who can exert internal damage on him regardless of how tough an exterior he has.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ceria said:


> Your point? Vader force choked Prince Xzior from systems away. And he killed the admiral of the Executor simply by having line of sight through a video screen. I see no reason that Palpatine couldn't do this also, it was hinted in the Plagueis novel that he had the ability to break necks using the force from systems away.


Have they ever broken someone's neck who ISN'T base human level? I wouldn't be surprised that Freeza-who regularly was slammed into mountains without any damage, would just laugh off the attempt or think it tickles.


----------



## Basilikos (Jan 21, 2012)

Quite a shitstorm.

I haven't read any of the SW books so I have no clue who is wanking and/or downplaying.


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## Ceria (Jan 21, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Have they ever broken someone's neck who ISN'T base human level? I wouldn't be surprised that Freeza-who regularly was slammed into mountains without any damage, would just laugh off the attempt or think it tickles.



Freeza's durability is irrelevant compared to a being who can damage him internally bypassing all of his defenses.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Ceria said:


> Freeza's durability is irrelevant compared to a being who can damage him internally bypassing all of his defenses.


How...

Ceria, Force Choke will do NOTHING to Freeza even if Sidious is lightyears away. Unless you're claiming said choke has more force than Freeza's survived.


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## Es (Jan 21, 2012)

Force Choke would likely do noting, Force Storm or Mindfuck as previously stated is another story. Also note he barely survived the explosion


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 21, 2012)

Es said:


> Force Choke would likely do noting, Force Storm or Mindfuck as previously stated is another story. Also note he barely survived the explosion


He barely survived the planetary explosion because he was already cut in half and blasted by SSJ Goku. If he could survive in THAT state? 

Also, when up against each other...what's stopping the vastly faster Freeza from just speedblitzing Palpatine before he can form a thought?


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

The fact that he could just hijack his body for one, or toss him in a hyperspace wormhole


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Es said:


> The fact that he could just hijack his body for one, or toss him in a hyperspace wormhole


Again. On a BATTLEFIELD, face to face. Freeza has an overwhelming speed advantage. And again-Freeza can survive a planet exploding under him after he's been bisected and blasted. Force Storm isn't doing SHIT to him.


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

Explain to me how the fuck he would survive a tear in reality


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Es said:


> Explain to me how the fuck he would survive a tear in reality


He survived a planet exploding. And a 'tear in reality'? Way to exaggerate what it is. 

Palpatine would get speed blitzed and his head removed before he could even form a thought. Or Freeza would shoot his finger beam and cut him in half. Or...


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He survived a planet exploding. And a 'tear in reality'? Way to exaggerate what it is.


Not really


> One of the most powerful known Force abilities in existence, Force storm was capable of violently destroying the fabric of the space-time continuum by opening dimension-altering rifts in the universe.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Es said:


> Not really


Still though, its firepower unleashed is less than that of what Freeza was able to survive.


----------



## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

The SW Atlas confirms Palpatine mind-fucking and draining Byss, which has a population of over 18-19 billion, and I can confirm that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> The SW Atlas confirms Palpatine mind-fucking and draining Byss, which has a population of over 18-19 billion, and I can confirm that.


Wasn't that a passive thing when Palpatine was recovering after resurrecting himself? 

And again...in a straight up face to face scenario, why shouldn't Freeza just be able to speedblitz Palpatine before he can form a thought?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> No                .


...Freeza has an overwhelming speed advantage. Why shouldn't he be able to use it against Palpatine?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

Any Jedi worth their salt have admirable levels of battle precognition that allows them to react against lasers from only several meters.
On the other hand Freezia is only at tripple digits Mach hypersonic in speed.
Who's going to attack first, I wonder?

Besides, I beleive this thread had already ran its course. Unless you have something meaningful and on-topic to ad into this thread then I suppose I should just lock it.


----------



## Matta Clatta (Jan 22, 2012)

So Palpatine is supposed to choke Freeza to death 


Its too bad jedi have never used their TK to rip people apart. It seems all the force can do is the standard push and pull objects and the occasional neck snap on featless humans.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Any Jedi worth their salt have admirable levels of battle precognition that allows them to react against lasers from only several meters.


Blaster bolts. Not actual lasers.


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

> It seems all the force can do is the standard push and pull objects and the occasional neck snap on featless humans.


Zannah made Tomcats hand explode


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Blaster bolts. Not actual lasers.


Wrong again


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

Artistic License. Mace Windo pretty much dissected a battle droid to its individual parts down to the last screw. If the Jedi weren't be that good natured (and the producers wouldn't worry about gore) I believe we would be seeing Mace or any Force user worth to note performing the same.

Anyways, Frieza actually has telekinetic powers and they were potent enough to destroy someone at the level of Namek Saga Krillin. Not to mention that regular TK crush doesn't ignore the durability. So I doubt there would be any neck-swapping from the neighboring star system. On the other hand Palpatine is far from being limited to just TK. Force Drain or mindraping Frieza should work, as well.




SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Blaster bolts. Not actual lasers.


Go watch more Star Wars and become a family man.

Seriously, you're so confident to judge things when your lack of knowledge on Star Wars is apparent.
SWverse also have lasers that are (*shock!*) shooting beams of light that travel at lightspeed.


----------



## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

I would ask that it stays open, if only because I want to see what Estrecca has to say about the Byss feat being confirmed in the Atlas.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Go watch more Star Wars and become a family man.
> 
> Seriously, you're so confident to judge things when your lack of knowledge on Star Wars is apparent.
> SWverse also have lasers that are (*shock!*) shooting beams of light that travel at lightspeed.


...I've seen all six films. I've read a LOT of the EU. I've watched both comic series. 



> A blaster (also addressed as a gun) is a ranged weapon that fires bursts of particle beam energy called blaster bolts from a replaceable power pack. The



And when have we seen ACTUAL LASERS, you know, as we understand them being used?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

^Fine by me. 
Although you can settle that with Estrecca on even PMS/VMs. No need to keep this thread open just to hear his answer.

But like I said, I don't mind it.
Unless the OP (Soledad Eterna) ask for this thread to be closed, I shall keep this open until Estrecca's reply.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...I've seen all six films. I've read a LOT of the EU. I've watched both comic series.


You know watching the six movies is only the tip of the iceberg.
Just ask Fang how many other forms of media Star Wars has with  a very large portion of them being canon accepted by George Lucas himself.





> And when have we seen ACTUAL LASERS, you know, as we understand them being used?


Instead of behaving like a fool, check out the Star Wars wiki as otherwise called Wookiepedia:

These things are pretty popular in the Star Wars: Jedi Knight game series, which is considered canon.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And when have we seen ACTUAL LASERS, you know, as we understand them being used?





			
				Coruscant Nights said:
			
		

> "I wouldn't know. I do know, however", I-Five said, "that you're much better with that sword than you think you are. "
> 
> Jax glanced down at the weapon, saw his distorted reflection looking back at him from the blade's surface. "Yeah? How do you know th---?"
> 
> ...


pew       pew


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

...isn't that just a blaster?


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

It says Laser beam, hell I Five even mentions the speed of the beam


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 22, 2012)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...isn't that just a blaster?



>outright stated to be a laser beam
>speed of light being mentioned in full

nope.jpg


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> You know watching the six movies is only the tip of the iceberg.
> Just ask Fang how many other forms of media Star Wars has with  a very large portion of them being canon accepted by George Lucas himself.


I've read a LOT of the EU, willyvereb. I've played a lot of the games, read the novels, read the comics, watched the TV series. 

Lucas kind of acts like the EU is another universe at times.


> Instead of behaving like a fool, check out the Star Wars wiki as otherwise called Wookiepedia:
> 
> These things are pretty popular in the Star Wars: Jedi Knight game series, which is considered canon.


Yes, lower canon. C-Canon. Not G-Canon.


----------



## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

Can't you just ban him

He's not even trying


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

...have I broken any rules, Fang?


----------



## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

Your trolling pretty hard for one and trying to deny and downplay obvious proof


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

...I'm not trolling. Honestly, just because I disagree with you, doesn't mean I'm trolling. Es, aren't you trying to downplay everything from the Dragon Ball side too? You as well, Fang?


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

Chill down. I believe SuperSaiyaMan12 is just Jelly.
There's nothing wrong with that.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jan 22, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Chill out. I believe SuperSaiyaMan12 is just Jelly.


...whose Jelly? Wait...is he that guy who calls everyone a racist that disagrees with him?

....ha, ha.


----------



## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

^Check my post again. I just edited it.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jan 22, 2012)

Why is Roshi's moon feat not taken in count?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 22, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> Actually, Itachi is capable of hypnosis himself:
> 
> Jedah's profile.



That's an illusion. It can't do any damage.



> Sasuke also used the same kind of Genjutsu on Manda:
> 
> Jedah's profile.



Manda is a dumb beast that was already serving Sasuke and Orochimaru.



> And again on a fodder-nin to learn Killer B's whereabouts:
> 
> Jedah's profile.



And the reason this doesn't classify as simply intimidation, as in "I just showed I can fuck you up, now tell me what I want to know or you die"?



> Takes more than a little mental fortitude to shrug off Tsukuyomi. Orochimaru was sweating bullets just under the influence of Kasegui, and that sick fuck usually *likes* things rough.



And your point is? No matter what happens, at most they'll be shaken a bit, which will do nothing more than buy a little time against someone like Frieza, whose Itachi has no way of actually hurting at all.



Emperor Joker said:


> Oh no wonder I haven't seen it, it's a guidebook for the rpg. looks like something for me to buy regardless



LOL RPG Guide.

Can we say S-canon?



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Have they ever broken someone's neck who ISN'T base human level? I wouldn't be surprised that Freeza-who regularly was slammed into mountains without any damage, would just laugh off the attempt or think it tickles.



For once I actually agree with you here. TK isn't doing the job here. In fact, considering Frieza, when cut in half, didn't even appear to have bones, it's questionable whether he even has a neck with a spinal cord and vertebrae that can be "snapped" like a typical humanoid.

(See, I'm not a downplayer, I just go with honesty and logic).



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Still though, its firepower unleashed is less than that of what Freeza was able to survive.



I don't think you understand. It's not about firepower, it's about hax. No DBZ character can survive the timespace they occupy being fractured, that ignores conventional durability. It's like saying if someone is bulletproof that makes them immune to poison. Completely different type of attack.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Wasn't that a passive thing when Palpatine was recovering after resurrecting himself?



Nope. Try actually reading the posted scan. 



> And again...in a straight up face to face scenario, why shouldn't Freeza just be able to speedblitz Palpatine before he can form a thought?



Precog, not to mention Force Users have shown relativistic reactions which actually means they think faster than DBZ characters who are only massively hypersonic.

But even if we ignore all that and say that Frieza blasts Palpatine to smithereens in the first second, Palpatine still wins.

Why?

Possession. His spirit would continue to exist even in the absence of his physical body, and he would just take over Frieza's body. Then he would have his own powers + Frieza's powers, which is a pretty frightening prospect to think about, actually.



Matta Clatta said:


> Its too bad jedi have never used their TK to rip people apart. It seems all the force can do is the standard push and pull objects and the occasional neck snap on featless humans.



To quote TWF: 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Blaster bolts. Not actual lasers.



Chiss Masic Guns. Look them up.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Lucas kind of acts like the EU is another universe at times.



He was speaking in terms of literary considerations, not continuity. Else why would he even set up a system of canon?



> Yes, lower canon. C-Canon. Not G-Canon.



And since nothing in it explicitly contradicts the G-canon, it's perfectly acceptable.



Orochibuto said:


> Why is Roshi's moon feat not taken in count?



Because it's an outlier which is incongruent with everything else in part 1 of the series.


----------



## Orochibuto (Jan 22, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> Because it's an outlier which is incongruent with everything else in part 1 of the series.



I ve always had a problem understanding these kinds of things, how do you properly put something as an "outlier"?

If it is in the canonical material, isnt it canon technically? Basically that would be placing logic above the author purpose. Is it extremelly illogical? Yes, but if its in the canon material by the author...... who are we to disqualify it?

Take for example Sora No Otoshimono, the main's character bitch in panel appeared 1 billion dollars, then in another chapter (in fact was the point of a whole chapter) the main character was suffering because he didnt had money, are we on this premise then to assume Ikaros cant appear 1 billion dollars despite being outright stated and shown on panel?


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 22, 2012)

The fact that it simply doesn't make sense in context.

For example, in Flame of Recca a character in an early chapter had a lightspeed/FTL reaction feat. This feat was pretty much undeniable, yet nothing in the series matches it. They had trouble with sound speed attacks later on. So it's discounted.

Same for stuff like Superman beating Dominus.

SnO is a majorly gag/nonserious manga, you could even call it toonforce. Also the main character is kind of an idiot so that would also explain it.


----------



## Estrecca (Jan 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> The SW Atlas confirms Palpatine mind-fucking and draining Byss, which has a population of over 18-19 billion, and I can confirm that.



You'll note that my previous post finished with: _If the mind-wipe of trillions refers to something else, then never mind the above and continue with your regularly scheduled discussion._ That's there in case it was a reference to some other incident, like Byss or some event involving large scale battle meditation.

Though the specifics (specific method, casting time and such) of Byss remain elusive (could have been augmented by the planet being an artificial Dark Side nexus), it is a sufficiently well documented event that arguing against it would be pure folly.    

Also, two somethings you asked me in that visitor message:



> I know that most people on SD.net support high level telepathic showings for Force-Users, but what is the canonical status of this Starships of the Galaxy rpg book?



Roleplaying sourcebooks have always been C-canon, at least in regards to their flavour text. 



> You said the New Essential Guide to Characters was in-universe? I've never heard of that.



Julius Sykes covered the matter in some length in a biographical article about the anonymous in-universe author of the New Essential Guide.

Link removed

It is a trend that continues from earlier works, like The Essential Chronology and Star Wars Encyclopedia which are noted to be in-universe documents created by these guys here:

stay afloat by an Odin power spell
stay afloat by an Odin power spell

Of course, that's only a cute way of claiming that any inaccurate information that's the result of retcons that happened after publication, is the fault of in-universe authors. But that's canon marches on for ya.


----------



## Sasukehatemme (Jan 22, 2012)

*roshi's moon buster...*

Roshis moon buster is not an outlier... whoever claims that on panel feat should be disregarded has the burden of proof on their side actually..

but really you could use the exact same arguments to claim Frieza and Kid Buu planet busters were outliers.

you say that king piccolo and piccolo junior didn't cause huge damage to the planet.. well guess what neither did anyone between frieza and kid buu. all we got are character statements about planet busting between them.

and piccolo destroyed the moon with a casual ki blast.. makes perfect sense if we don't disregard roshis feat.. and if we do that also becomes an outlier. and you have ignored two on panel feats that perfectly make sense if both are used.

about statements... all we have between frieza and kid buu are pretty much statements about planet busting and such, the next best destructive feat is only island busting. same applies between roshi and piccolo actually. king piccolo was going to destroy 1/43 of the world for fun. daizenshuu stated that 23rd budokai gokus kamehameha has enough power to destroy the moon.

the situation is actually very different from the scenario endless mike posted here. roshis moon busting feat is actually backed up by character statements and on panel feats, it's not a thing that only happens once in the entire series and after that we only see like building busting or so.

and now I'm waiting for proof of the said 'outlier', because as I said burden of proof is on you guys.


----------



## Toriko (Jan 22, 2012)

lol oh you


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 22, 2012)

I see a lot of unsupported statements but no evidence to back them up...


----------



## Sasukehatemme (Jan 22, 2012)

Brohan said:


> lol oh you



well quess what, your subjective opinion is very irrelevant when compared to actual showings on panel.

piccolo and roshi destroyed the Moon. you better have some very concessive proof that they didn't if your going to argue against it.


----------



## Endless Mike (Jan 22, 2012)

No one is saying that they didn't. They're saying it's inconsistent and can't be used.


----------



## Sasukehatemme (Jan 22, 2012)

Endless Mike said:


> I see a lot of unsupported statements but no evidence to back them up...



Link removed
Link removed
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Link removed
Link removed
Link removed
Link removed


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## Endless Mike (Jan 22, 2012)

Yeah... and? Stronger characters got exhausted trying to destroy cities and raze islands.


----------



## Gone (Jan 22, 2012)

Ok when the wank just got too much to read I skipped about the last 3 pages of this thread, so sorry if somebody adressed this already.

It seems to me the Star Wars people are trying to use Opress matching Obi-Wan and Anakin in the TV show, and then powerscale using Obi-Wan and Anakins EU feats, to say Opress = EU Obi-Wan and Anakin, and this is bullshit. If you go by that logic then Jango Fett kicking Obi-Wans ass in the movie must make him mach 8000 hypersonic right? (not that im buying that calc for Obi-Wan for a second btw) Going by feats Opress dosnt come close to Anakin or Obi-Wan in the EU.


And even if you accept this bullshit powerscaling that some people are trying to back door as feats, if you look at the character its blatand PIS. Its like saying Captain America has FTL reflexes and planet busting strength because he dodged hits from Thor and KOed him.

I mean Ill be the first to admit that there is a lot I dont know about Star Wars, and I myself used to think that DBZ > Any other fiction in terms of power. A few months in the OBD does wonders for a persons perception... But I still call bullshit on using powerscaling from Obi-Wans EU to boost Opress just because he matched him in the movie.

EDIT: Also Palpatine would fuck up Frieza. He might not be able to physicaly hurt him, but worst case scenerio he could take controll of his body and make him rip his own heart out through his ass or something. Yes Friezas physical durability would be more than Palpatine could overcome, but he has 0 resistance to mental attacks. Blame Toriyama for never adressing anything other than physical prowess with the story.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 22, 2012)

The EU is not a separate a continuity and you do know that Clone Wars=/= a movie?, it's a *tv show* and part of T-canon(actually G-canon now since Lucas himself admits he makes no distinction between Clone Wars and the movies) i.e EU but higher level of canon and it's part of the original Clone Wars cartoon. There is no separate version of Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan, not unless you're going with What ifs/N-canon. This EU= not canon and EU=separate continuity nonsense should have died after 1999. 

Don't powerscale?Clone Wars covers Anakin and Obi Wans career pre Revenge of the Sith, it's part of their canon life. Anakin gets a scar from Ventress in an EU work which carries over to the original clone wars and the movie. To explain why the new clone wars or most EU is canon by default.




> This certainly affects a chunk of the continuity of the first Coruscant Nights book in which Even Piell's death was originally depicted. The rest of the continuity of that series will remain intact, though this does leave open the question of who was Jax Pavan's Master.
> 
> Piell has long been a sticking point because we never killed him off in the pre-Ep3 Clone Wars EU, and yet he was still missing from the Ep3 Jedi Council (he was in the Ep2 Jedi Council only because they reused Ep1 footage). *We never fully explained who Anakin replaced when Palpatine appointed him to the Council and so we just went off the assumption that it was Piell who got the short shrift. So when we went looking for a prominent Jedi to kill off early on in Coruscant Nights, Even Piell fit the bill*.
> 
> It wasn't until after the Coruscant Nights trilogy was completed that we learned that Even Piell's death would be rewritten with this episode. *In the interim, we've tried to minimize that number of sources that mentioned Piell's fate*



They would not go through all this trouble to make a work stick in the same timeline if it were not canon. 

Regardless Opress would lose this, kid Goku beat a city buster is above mach 14. Unless Opress mentally attacks off the bat(he probably can't, he's a noob darksider with barely much training in TK let alone proper telepathy training, he's more primal than disciplined and no discipline= no proper use of power) he'll be overpowered by the difference in  physical strength if he goes CQC or take a Kamehameha.


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## Gone (Jan 22, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> The EU is not a separate a continuity



No but it does give very different power showings than the movies. And since Opress has virtualy no EU feats thats all we have to go on.



> EU but higher level of canon and it's part of the original Clone Wars cartoon. There is no separate version of Anakin Skywalker and Obi Wan, not unless you're going with What ifs/N-canon. This EU= not canon and EU=separate continuity nonsense should have died after 1999.



Im not trying to say its a different contonuity, but for example Obi-Wan is much less powerful in the movies and TV show than he is in the EU. So saying Opress = Obi-Wan in the show, does not mean he gets all of Obi-Wans EU feats. Obi-Wan gave a less impressive showing in the TV show, so Opress matching him there is not as impressive a feat, since Obi-Wan did not use his supposed mach 8000+ speed, and so on and so foreth that he displays in the EU.

Or are you trying to say that Jango fett could beat kid Gohan since he was able to match Obi-Wan?


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## Nikushimi (Jan 22, 2012)

Es said:


> Like yourself?



Why would you lose any sleep over my opinions? Half the time I'm just being a smartass. 



> And we're using facts not opinions dummy.



Sure, whatever helps man.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 22, 2012)

Ryjacork said:


> No but it does give very different power showings than the movies. And since Opress has virtualy no EU feats thats all we have to go on



What?Oppress is an EU character(a newly created one in a G canon tv show but still an EU character), Saying that you want to limit the showings of a character because you don't like it is hilarious. We do not do this for comics or other fictions with multiple writers and canon expanded universes and we do not do this for the Starwars EU. *If a character has a feat of say speed in one work, then any character who keeps up with them in other canon works can replicate the same*



> Im not trying to say its a different contonuity, but for example Obi-Wan is much less powerful in the movies and TV show than he is in the EU. So saying Opress = Obi-Wan in the show, does not mean he gets all of Obi-Wans EU feats. Obi-Wan gave a less impressive showing in the TV show, so Opress matching him there is not as impressive a feat, since Obi-Wan did not use his supposed mach 8000+ speed, and so on and so foreth that he displays in the EU



Mach 8000+ Obi wan?He used his precog+ his mastery in the Shien+Soresu style of saber combat to deflect several shots of blaster fire. He's not massively hypersonic but a nice feat still, not going to help if Goku throws a Kamehameha to cover most of the area. The scene you are referencing is BTW *from the Revenge of the Sith novel, edited by Lucas line by line as per the author*. 



> Though I did not personally watch him do it, *I received from LFL a Word document of Revenge of the Sith with Mr Lucas' edits, which was distinct from the edits I'd already gotten from Sue Rostoni and Howard Roffman and the rest of the LFL crew, and this document was edited in such a detailed fashion that even individual words had been struck off and his preferred replacements inserted, as well as some passages wholly excised and some dialogue replaced with the dialogue from the screenplay. If that's not line-editing, I don't know what is.What's in that book is there because Mr. Lucas wanted it to be there. What's not in that book is not there because Mr. Lucas wanted it gone*
> Period



*Also Leeland Chee, keeper of C canon(second highest canon) has said there is no contradiction between the speeds in the EU and the movies as well*, so just because we don't see them blitzing each other often(exception is Sidious blitzing 3 Jedi masters in the movie) does not mean they move at human speeds or can't move faster, *same for other feats in different areas*. Hint, he's in charge of handling such things not you. 

You want to talk about contradicting power levels?Dragonball has enough contradictions of it's own despite being written by one person. We do not cherry pick Goku struggling to lift 400 tons in Buu saga, it's the same here. I fail to see how this feat of Kenobi's is high end, he's not really massively hypersonic for using his precognition and mastery over a style designed to deflect attacks, it's very impressive feat of Shien and Soresu mastery but not much else other than "Kenobi can deflect multiple projectile attacks".



> Or are you trying to say that Jango fett could beat kid Gohan since he was able to match Obi-Wan?



Even though *I never claimed Kenobi was mach 8000 in my first and only post before this*, I find it hilarious that you think that a character is not allowed to be as fast as another character or faster because apparantly they don't have the same stats in other areas, no even if Kenobi was mach 8000 he would not be able to beat Kid Gohan a planet buster. If a character is mach 8000, they are beyond any Dragonball character for the record, being as fast or faster than someone also does not mean a character will win. If a                                   character is mach 5000, clearly that does not means people think he can beat Goku. However  Kenobi is *not mach 8000 in reactions*. 

I'll sum this post up to save people trouble of reading walls of text:
-EU is canon
-Ignoring feats from canon works will not be tolerated
-Goku will win this thread

Now I'll take my leave for good.


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## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

Actually, I "calced" Obi -Wan's reaction speed for that blaster feat to be Mach 10,000, I don't know from where did the Mach 8,000 come from. Anyways, I re-evaluated the calc and the result was in the low-mid double digits Mach hypersonic.
Still that only applies for Obi-Wan's short-range movements with his arms It doesn't mean he can actually run that fast.


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## Gone (Jan 22, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> What?Oppress is an EU character, do you not understand that Clone Wars covers the era of the Republic between ep 2 and 3 thus includes various comics, cartoons, novels and what not?Saying that you want to limit the showings of a character because you don't like it is hilarious. We do not do this for comics or other fictions with multiple writers and canon expanded universes and we do not do this for the Starwars EU. If we go with your logic, Majin Buu surviving hits from a Kamehameha are not impressive because those versions were not shown to planet bust, even though powerscaling should make that obviously a planet level. If a character has a feat of say speed in one work, then any character who keeps up with them in other canon works can replicate the same.



/facepalm

You are missing my point, Im not even gonna bother trying to explain it to you again.



> Macg 8000+ Obi wan?What?He used his precog+ his mastery in the Shien+Soresu style of saber combat to delfects several shots of blaster fire



If by several you mean 10,000 fired at him at the same time, from close range, then yea ok. For the record it wasnt my calc, and in fact i think that I said in my earlier post that I wasnt buying it. But some Star Wars fans around here like to pretend that Obi-Wan is that fast.



> Even though I never claimed Kenobi was mach 8000, I find it hilarious that you think that a character is not allowed to be as fast as another character or faster because apparantly they don't have the same stats in other areas, no even if Kenobi was mach 8000 he would not be able to beat *Kid Gohan *a planet buster. If a character is mach 8000, they are beyond any Dragonball character for the record, being as fast or faster than someone also does not mean a character will win. But no Kenobi is not mach 8000. Still, keep up the bad logic.



Again I never said that Obi-Wan was mach 8000, its not my calc, and I have never bought it.

Also this fight is against kid *Goku* not Gohan... 

Anyway I will try and explain this one last time. It is fairly common knowledge that Star Wars characters give more impressive showings in the *novels* and *video games*, than they do in the *movies and TV shows*. They are still the same character and share continuity, but they have higher feats in the novels and video games, ect.

Now Opress was able to match Anakin and Obi-Wan in the *TV show*, where they were both giving low end showings, and people are trying to use powerscaling of *higher feats* that they have displayed in the novels to try and say that Opress could fight on that level. What Im saying is that since they are portrayed as far less powerfull in the TV show, Opress matching them there does not give him the same levels of power that they have both displayed elswhere.

*I am not saying that different forms of EU material do not share canon*, it is all the same canon, I know that. *I am speaking strictly of their feats*. So for the final time, Opress never displayed any feats putting him close to Obi-Wan or Anakin in their high end EU showings. The fact that he was able to match them was either PIS, or they just didnt have as impressive showings in the TV show.


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## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

willyvereb said:


> Actually, I "calced" Obi -Wan's reaction speed for that blaster feat to be Mach 10,000, I don't know from where did the Mach 8,000 come from. *Anyways, I re-evaluated the calc and the result was in the low-mid double digits Mach hypersonic.*
> Still that only applies for Obi-Wan's short-range movements with his arms It doesn't mean he can actually run that fast.



*That was because you changed the speed of blaster bolts to sound speed, which I mentioned made no sense since you thought it fell under a form of calc stacking. We don't change the speed of muzzle velocity or ballistics like the Sten gun feat Roshi has because we assumed Roshi had the same reactions as Goku (slightly above peak human) for his bullet-timing feat. It's kind of heavily in the wrong. 

I got mach 4000-5000 with the deflection feat with the mach 8 blaster bolts, but I pushed the distance back further then in your calc from the Jack Rakan vs Obi-Wan thread. I also believe the absolute high end would put his attack/deflection/reaction speed somewhere around mach 16,000+ using your original distance with the mach 12 blaster speed.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jan 22, 2012)

Ryjacork or whatever, You were the one who brought up Kid Gohan, you claimed that people or most likely me thought that because someone was mach 8000 that meant they could beat someone  Kid Gohan as an excuse to dismiss a feat. No Bobba keeping up with episode 2 Kenobi does not make him as powerful as a much stronger Kenobi 3 years later, even going with AOTC Kenobi being that strong, he is not mach 8000 for doing that feat so Bobba keeping up with him will not make him that fast. I did'nt say you claimed Kenobi was mach 8000, you were the one assuming I thought that, why else


> Or are *you* trying to say that Jango fett could beat kid Gohan since he was able to match Obi-Wan?


You= me/Tranquil Fury

You right here assumed I thought Kenobi was mach 8000. Pay attention to what you're responding to, better yet pay attention to what you type. All I was arguing over was



> am not saying that different forms of EU material do not share canon, it is all the same canon, I know that. I am speaking strictly of their feat



I mean really, this is like saying that if every comic does not have Thor planet busting it means we can't powerscale his attack as a planet buster for someone who tanks it(i.e give someone planet level durability for tanking it). Because Lucas did not think of a feat in the movies means it makes a feat in the new clone wars(G-canon) or any canon source source which has a feat much higher than what's shown in the movies not useable?The novel  feat we are referencing is I repeated *Edited line by line by Lucas*. Nevermind that it does'nt make Kenobi mach 8000 since he's using his precog and mastery of Soresu+Shien(two styles designed to deflect blasters).

Jesus, *I've wasted half a post over something you brought up and then misunderstood as me claiming i*t. The other half is you just covering your ears going "I don't like it", *no creators do not plan out feats of a character but we do not dismiss all feats unless proven as high end or low end*. e.g  If a work in 1999 has a character from a movie cutting a helicopter and another work in 2007 has them cutting a building, we will not ignore that building cutting feat just because the creator did not think of the feat some 8 years before, not unless you prove it as high end. So just because no one in the movies has levitated and choked two people or more at once, does not make such a feat in EU like(Ventress and Oppress doing so to Anakin and Kenobi at once in new clone wars) not useable. This applies to even the higher level feats.

It's the same with comics of Marvel, DC or Starwars. For Starwars all canon except N is canon, *this makes those feats canon, contradiction of canon in such works applies only to story elements such as important events not feats*


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## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

I like how he called Jango, "Boba". Shows his knowledge on the subject in plain spades. The calc and feat only has to do with a higher level Force-User/Jedi's ability to deflect and move his hands or attack. Not a movement speed, nor has anything to do with the fact that Obi-Wan wanted to take and capture Jango alive.

The petty attempt to say Jango is at that level is stupid.


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## Toriko (Jan 22, 2012)

In other words he has sand in his pussy.


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## Gone (Jan 22, 2012)

Fang said:


> his attack/deflection/reaction speed somewhere around *mach 16,000+* using your original distance with the mach 12 blaster speed.







Tranquil Fury said:


> You= me/Tranquil Fury
> 
> You right here assumed I thought Kenobi was mach 8000. Pay attention to what you're responding to, better yet pay attention to what you type. All I was arguing over was


Hahahaha sorry I meant kid goku, my fail. And I dont assume Kenobi is mach 8000, those trying to compare Opress to him are making that assumption. I was trying to poke holes in their powerscaling argument while keeping the assumption of Kenobis speed. But again I said right after that I never bought that calc and was just assuming it for the sake of argument.



> mean really, this is like saying that if every comic does not have Thor planet busting it means we can't powerscale his attack as a planet buster for someone who tanks it



No its more like the comics where Wolverine fights evenly against the Hulk. Hell Jobberine tanked punches from WWH without losing consiousness. And how about Thor getting his ass beat by the Hulk 3 out of every 4 times they fight when he clearly has the power to put Hulk down but good? 



> Jesus, I've wasted half a post over something you brought up and then misunderstood as me claiming it. The other half is you just covering your ears going "I don't like it", no creators do not plan out feats of a character but we do not dismiss all feats unless proven as high end or low end. e.g If a work in 1999 has a character from a movie cutting a helicopter and another work in 2007 has them cutting a building, we will not ignore that building cutting feat just because the creator did not think of the feat some 8 years before, not unless you prove it as high end.



Dude your the one who keeps putting words in my mouth. I never said that Obi-Wan could take kid Goku or Gohan, I was saying it was the assumption of Star Wars posters earlier in the thread that Opress could based on powerscaling from Kenobi.

All that Im saying is that Star Wars characters give notoriously low showings in the movies (and the TV show), so its better to go by feats than cross powerscaling. Based on his feats Opress never showed anything close to some of the things Obi-Wan did, but people are trying to say that Opress = Obi-Wan because he matched him in the TV show.

I think we may just be misunderstanding each other a bit here. I mean we seem to agree on most of the actual points of this thread.


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## Matta Clatta (Jan 22, 2012)

If you want to powerscale random newbie force users to the top because another character was blatantly hit with the idiot ball or just jobbing(you know like General Grievous not immediately stomping that gungan he was fighting in TCW) extend that olive branch to every fiction.

I have no idea why this show is being inflated in such a way when in terms of feats its just a bit above the movies.

If this is how were gonna treat star wars then I guess a monkey is as strong as pre crisis superman.


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## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

How is an amped up force user being able to hold off more skilled poppets jobbing?


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## willyvereb (Jan 22, 2012)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Regardless Opress would lose this, kid Goku beat a city buster is above mach 14. Unless Opress mentally attacks off the bat(he probably can't, he's a noob darksider with barely much training in TK let alone proper telepathy training, he's more primal than disciplined and no discipline= no proper use of power) he'll be overpowered by the difference in  physical strength if he goes CQC or take a Kamehameha.


Unless someone would like to refute this quote, I say the thread has already reached its conclusion

So any takers?


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## Es (Jan 22, 2012)

Lock it    .


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## Gone (Jan 22, 2012)

RELEASE THE KRAKEN!

I mean lock it


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## Nevermind (Jan 22, 2012)

Lock it.

Star Wars vs Dragon Ball has a very high potential for a shit storm. We see it here.


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## Fang (Jan 22, 2012)

I dunno how Goku would survive a lightsaber or TK choking but otherwise then it would be a stalemate. He still isn't blitzing.


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