# Derieri (NnT) vs Katakuri (OP)



## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

vs.​​Two brawlers with amazing senses go at it.
Location: Random Britannia Coast
Distance: 20m
Knowledge: None
Conditions: Both start in base, unrestricted otherwise.

If soul hax is too much then restrict it.


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

What are derrieres stats these days? I know she just tried to fight esta/mael or whatever the hell he goes by.


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## Steven (Aug 20, 2018)

Can Derieri counter FS at all?

Except with Soulsteal


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> What are derrieres stats these days? I know she just tried to fight esta/mael or whatever the hell he goes by.


She is 23.5 Gt in base. But once she combos off she should be anywhere from 47 to 94 Gt depending on how long the combo is and if she can stun. Speed is mach 3600.

She also has basic demon abilities like hellfire, soulfuck, darkness manipulation, and regen.


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> She is 23.5 Gt in base. But once she combos off she should be anywhere from 47 to 94 Gt depending on how long the combo is and if she can stun. Speed is mach 3600.
> 
> She also has basic demon abilities like hellfire, soulfuck, darkness manipulation, and regen.



If kata gets that last heart out can she regen it? 

As for combo star, well kata can just dodge the blows with pseudo logia skill. Problem is gonna be catching her but if he utilizes the terrain he should take it more times than not.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> If kata gets that last heart out can she regen it?
> 
> As for combo star, well kata can just dodge the blows with pseudo logia skill. Problem is gonna be catching her but if he utilizes the terrain he should take it more times than not.


No. If he destroys all hearts she is done. But they are located throughout the body.

Kata will be hardpressed. G4 luffy was tagging him despite no COO on his level and derieri is faster here. Derieri specializes on stunning an opponent and then comboing off. Even Meliodas had some trouble and he is >> Kata in CqC

Logia stuff isn't a problem thanks to hellfire and darkness nullifying logia.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No. If he destroys all hearts she is done. But they are located throughout the body.
> 
> Kata will be hardpressed. G4 luffy was tagging him despite no COO on his level and derieri is faster here. Derieri specializes on stunning an opponent and then comboing off. Even Meliodas had some trouble and he is >> Kata in CqC
> 
> Logia stuff isn't a problem thanks to hellfire and darkness nullifying logia.



G4 snakeman only tagged because of the elaborate attack style. Derri has no finesse and just comes in swinging which he can just dodge.

As for hellfire, unless she engulfs his whole body he can just plop off the burning sections and go them back. For darkness? What feats of cancelling abilities does it Have? Only recall esta using it on escanor


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> G4 snakeman only tagged because of the elaborate attack style. Derri has no finesse and just comes in swinging which he can just dodge.



Yeah and he even adapted to the elaborate attack style at a certain point.

He went from not being able to consistently dodge a single Jet Culverin to dodging a gatling/flurry of them (Black Mamba) while closing the distance on some matrix shit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Keishin (Aug 20, 2018)

Katakuri with better ranged abilities


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2018)

Katakuri scales to comfortably 84GT+, whereas Derriere needs to build herself up a lot to even be able to reach half of it. Even longer for additional scaling, if any.

Due to both of them being brawlers and Soulsteal being restricted, Katakuri would break her out of her Combo just as easily as a 48GT Meliodas did. And Kata is superior to that scaling by twice the amount. 

Indura Derriere would be a different fight, seeing how she deciamtes 96GT people like the Archangels. 

If Soulsteal is not restricted she also would have a better chance, seeing how she very ruthless uses it regulary.

Without all that: Katakuri


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## Mythoclast (Aug 20, 2018)

Katakuri since soul rip and Indura is restricted.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Indura is not restricted


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2018)

Indura Derriere would win.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> G4 snakeman only tagged because of the elaborate attack style. Derri has no finesse and just comes in swinging which he can just dodge.
> 
> As for hellfire, unless she engulfs his whole body he can just plop off the burning sections and go them back. For darkness? What feats of cancelling abilities does it Have? Only recall esta using it on escanor


Deri can sort of do the same though with her darkness appendages.

She should be able to engulf him, or atleast injure him. He does have decent counters though.

Darkness nullified Escanor's sunshine but it was too stronk and he simply reignitied it as he powered up and recently it stopped Tamriel from going logia.


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 20, 2018)

Can she even use Indura anymore? Aside from Chandler and Cusack, the TC have to sacrifice 6 of their hearts to use that form. Since Derieri has already done that before a d is left with one it can't be done unless you give her all 7 again.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Lord Valgaav said:


> Can she even use Indura anymore? Aside from Chandler and Cusack, the TC have to sacrifice 6 of their hearts to use that form. Since Derieri has already done that before a d is left with one it can't be done unless you give her all 7 again.


Yeah, not going to gimp her here by sticking to her logistical heart count story wise. Just pitting her up at her strongest.


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah, not going to gimp her here by sticking to her logistical heart count story wise. Just pitting her up at her strongest.



Okay then. 

I stopped reading OP, but from what I'm given to understand about Katakuri he should win thanks to Derieri being such a limited fighter and his CoO being so great. 

Indura and soulrip are her only options for victory.


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Indura Derriere would win.



The difference between unquantifiably above 96 GT and unquantifiably above 84 GT isn’t insurmountable. Inside the NNT verse less than 2x differences in power may allow a character to stomp another character but outside of it less than 2x isn’t usually that big a difference.

Something worth considering is that Indura Derrière loses her reasoning ability and attacks like a beast. So wouldn’t that mean she loses any ability she had to use strategies or think up counters to her opponent’s strategies?

Katakuri’s awakening is excellent for attacking from a distance (multiple Mochi arms to punch with, trapping the opponent in the ground, burying them under a pile of Mochi to suffocate them, etc...), with just his normal devil fruit he can stretch his limbs and expand their size just as well or better than Luffy (Katakuri showed that pretty well with his larger Elephant Gun), he can shoot off his arm like a rocket punch with Grilled Mochi, and Katakuri’s ultimate attack traps the opponent as they get stuck to his giant spike covered Mochi Arm and slammed into the ground full force.

She has to close the distance before she can put her strength advantage to good use, but without her ability to reason wouldn’t she just get knocked back over and over and not even try to come up with a strategy? At that point eventually I would just see Katakuri resorting to his spear which he spins and thrusts with enough force that it's like a blender. And as soon as he hits that last heart with the spear he can tear it apart without needing to remove it by just continuing to spin his spear.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> The difference between unquantifiably above 96 GT and unquantifiably above 84 GT isn’t insurmountable. Inside the NNT verse less than 2x differences in power may allow a character to stomp another character but outside of it less than 2x isn’t usually that big a difference.
> 
> Something worth considering is that Indura Derrière loses her reasoning ability and attacks like a beast. So wouldn’t that mean she loses any ability she had to use strategies or think up counters to her opponent’s strategies?
> 
> ...


Derieri is still a demon with access to hellfire and darkness, so she isn't limited to just punching in CqC, that's just her bread and butter. Red Demons alone have aoe with hellfire that outmatches Kata.

She does lose her smarts but gains overwhelming power/speed that was putting even ludo on his ass.


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Derieri is still a demon with access to hellfire and darkness, so she isn't limited to just punching in CqC, that's just her bread and butter. Red Demons alone have aoe with hellfire that outmatches Kata.



I don't think Kata would be unable to dodge a large scale attack like that. Jumping above it should work or he can turn his entire body into mochi and go deep into the ground.

Katakuri can put armament on his awakening attacks so they won't burn easily other so perhaps they could shield him. Power Mochi is essentially a giant Block Mochi Arm so I could definitely see it acting as a giant pillar that would keep whatever is behind it from getting burned.

And awakening allows Katakuri to attack Derriere from any direction from a distance due to how it covers the entire ground. That's something Derriere can't replicate as she wouldn't be able to attack Katakuri from behind in a surprise attack when she's standing face to face with him.



Dr. White said:


> She does lose her smarts but gains overwhelming power/speed that was putting even ludo on his ass.



I just think the power gained isn't enough to make up for losing the ability to strategize. Without the ability to strategize she's very liable to just spam the same attack over and over and not learn from any mistakes. Katakuri already can predict her actions with CoO but her being even more predictable and not forcing Katakuri to use many different types of counters instead of the same counter over and over will mean he doesn't have to expend as much effort and landing his own attacks will also be easier with her movements being more repetitious.



Dr. White said:


> Deri can sort of do the same though with her darkness appendages.



Really? I don't think Jet Culverin is that simple to replicate. In addition to how it changes direction with sharp turns it's supposed to accelerate with each turn getting faster as it continues. Luffy likely used Snakeman and Jet Culverin over going with Boundman and the normal Culverin likely because a normal Culverin wouldn't cut it due to how it keeps the same rate of speed no matter how long it goes on for.

Aside from that Kata also already adapted to even Jet Culverin as I mentioned (dodging each Jet Culverin that made up a Jet Culverin Gatling, since that's what Black Mamba essentially was). So post Luffy-fight it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue for him. 



Dr. White said:


> She should be able to engulf him, or atleast injure him. He does have decent counters though.
> 
> Darkness nullified Escanor's sunshine but it was too stronk and he simply reignitied it as he powered up and recently it stopped Tamriel from going logia.



I could see Katakuri actually sending Derriere's hellflame back at her. He can shoot off his own arm like a rocket punch with Grilled Mochi. He can use Block Mochi arms to block the initial impact of hellflame and just get sent flying back a bit by it, and if his arms are still on fire afterwards he can use Grilled Mochi with both of them and then reform his arms afterwards.

Block Mochi is also another good tool for stopping Derriere from starting a combo. Its a defense so hard that it hurts Luffy's armament covered hands and makes them throb in pain when he tries to punch it. Derriere might normally be able to start a combo on someone who's blocking with both of their arms and eventually break through that defense with combo star but here she'd be reeling from the pain as soon as she punches Kata's block mochi arms even once.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> I don't think Kata would be unable to dodge a large scale attack like that. Jumping above it should work or he can turn his entire body into mochi and go deep into the ground.


I don't see how those would practically help him given Deri can fly and erase large chunks of land. He really hasn't shown ability vs large AOE so idk why you think he'd dodge easily from someone faster than himself.



> Katakuri can put armament on his awakening attacks so they won't burn easily other so perhaps they could shield him.


The demon fire can even burn things wholly resistant to fire and won't extinguish like regular fire, so idk how well that would work over time.



> And awakening allows Katakuri to attack Derriere from any direction from a distance due to how it covers the entire ground. That's something Derriere can't replicate as she wouldn't be able to attack Katakuri from behind in a surprise attack when she's standing face to face with him.


True but she can still fly. Also she can emenate darkness from herself if surrounded, which is what she did when she got trapped in an ark. 





> I just think the power gained isn't enough to make up for losing the ability to strategize. Without the ability to strategize she's very liable to just spam the same attack over and over and not learn from any mistakes.


She began tearing up Ludociel, and Monspiet went from losing against Sariel to one shotting sariel and tamriel so yeah the power gained is pretty substantial.The scope of her attacks also get enhanced to the point where a tail attack completely level hundreds of meters of ground/forest. 




> Katakuri already can predict her actions with CoO but her being even more predictable and not forcing Katakuri to use many different types of counters instead of the same counter over and over will mean he doesn't have to expend as much effort and landing his own attacks will also be easier with her movements being more repetitious.


Not really because he is going to be so focused on defense. Just because she turns feral doesn't mean she is retarted. Indura are beast of destruction and the most animalistic a person can become. Animals have really great instincts, so it's not like she is just going to throw the same 1 two over and over again.




> Really? I don't think Jet Culverin is that simple to replicate. In addition to how it changes direction with sharp turns it's supposed to accelerate with each turn getting faster as it continues. Luffy likely used Snakeman and Jet Culverin over going with Boundman and the normal Culverin likely because a normal Culverin wouldn't cut it due to how it keeps the same rate of speed no matter how long it goes on for.


Yeah, it's malleable and can stretch like we saw with Red Demon Hendricksen's use of it. The point is multiple shadow tendrils attacking someone from different angle, and Deri being slightly faster already can work to overwhelm him.



> Aside from that Kata also already adapted to even Jet Culverin as I mentioned (dodging each Jet Culverin that made up a Jet Culverin Gatling, since that's what Black Mamba essentially was). So post Luffy-fight it wouldn't be anywhere near as much of an issue for him.


Comparing oranges and apples Imo/





> I could see Katakuri actually sending Derriere's hellflame back at her. He can shoot off his own arm like a rocket punch with Grilled Mochi. He can use Block Mochi arms to block the initial impact of hellflame and just get sent flying back a bit by it, and if his arms are still on fire afterwards he can use Grilled Mochi with both of them and then reform his arms afterwards.


Uhm I doubt it. She could just dodge if he did this and this wouldn't work against a large aoe attack surrounding him.

you make it sound like he can just willy nilly deal with hellfire when he is literally a sugar cake. Hellfire also cucks regen so doubt he can just make more mochi if it's burning him and darkness can cuck his ability to turn into mochi. That's pretty damning for him.



> Block Mochi is also another good tool for stopping Derriere from starting a combo. Its a defense so hard that it hurts Luffy's armament covered hands and makes them throb in pain when he tries to punch it


Derieri is much stronger than any version of Luffy outside of G4. Derieri is also a demon with an extreme pain tolerance (see her arm getting shredded by Sariel and her going with the flow and stabbing him in the eye with her arm bone) and regeneration, so my money is on her being able to wail away and stack her DC without being hindered by hitting something hard.


. Derriere might normally be able to start a combo on someone who's blocking with both of their arms and eventually break through that defense with combo star but here she'd be reeling from the pain as soon as she punches Kata's block mochi arms even once.[/QUOTE]


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Deri can sort of do the same though with her darkness appendages.
> 
> She should be able to engulf him, or atleast injure him. He does have decent counters though.
> 
> Darkness nullified Escanor's sunshine but it was too stronk and he simply reignitied it as he powered up and recently it stopped Tamriel from going logia.



For darkness are we allowing her to seal someone stronger than her? Because I know in the case of escanor v. esta he broke out because it was getting closer to noon but what's the case hear? 

As for Tarmiel sealing, who's darkness sealed his logia ability, derri or mael/esta ?


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> For darkness are we allowing her to seal someone stronger than her? Because I know in the case of escanor v. esta he broke out because it was getting closer to noon but what's the case hear?
> 
> As for Tarmiel sealing, who's darkness sealed his logia ability, derri or mael/esta ?



Estarossa sealed Tarmiel's water logia.


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## Dellinger (Aug 20, 2018)

A powered up version of estarossa did that


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## Dellinger (Aug 20, 2018)

A powered up version of estarossa did that


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2018)

Utilizing Darkness. Pretty simple.

Same way utilizing Haki cancels Logia.


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## Steven (Aug 20, 2018)

Derieri can use Hellfire?


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## Dellinger (Aug 20, 2018)

It doesnt matter anyway since Katakuri and other top tier logia have found a way to avoid haki attacks. Deris pretty basic combat style wont help her against Katakuri


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## Lord Valgaav (Aug 20, 2018)

Acnologia said:


> Derieri can use Hellfire?



As a TC she's expected to be able to use Hellfire, darkness, and know basic soulrip.


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Utilizing Darkness. Pretty simple.
> 
> Same way utilizing Haki cancels Logia.



Not all haki is equal tho, hence why Akainu getting attacked by vista and marco meant shit to him. That's why finding Derri's best hellfire and darkness feat is important here.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Not all haki is equal tho, hence why Akainu getting attacked by vista and marco meant shit to him. That's why finding Derri's best hellfire and darkness feat is important here.



Not being able to damage someone is another discussion than not being able to tag someone due to their intangibility.

The Haki from Vista and Marco was enough for their strike to connect. Only they have not been strong enough to cause any effect apparently.

Derrieres darkness will similarly connect - and with her being 96GT in Inudura there is no doubt she will also cause damage.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> For darkness are we allowing her to seal someone stronger than her? Because I know in the case of escanor v. esta he broke out because it was getting closer to noon but what's the case hear?
> 
> As for Tarmiel sealing, who's darkness sealed his logia ability, derri or mael/esta ?


It's a nullyfing effect. Escanor's sunshine is a grace and was nearing full power so he outdid the nullification. Escanor near noon is 94 Gt as well. Idk if the sunlight/grace characteristic is what counteracted or what, but I'd say any energy attacks >> should be enough to counteract the darkness. Should work on people of the same level though.

Tamriel's logia was nullified because the darkness infected him and stopped him from going logia. But it's still the inherent ability of darkness which all demons possess and what Deriere uses to attack with. It's actually a bit similar to the Yami Fruit.


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I don't see how those would practically help him given Deri can fly and erase large chunks of land. He really hasn't shown ability vs large AOE so idk why you think he'd dodge easily from someone faster than himself.



His future Sight gives him much more time to react. It gives him the opportunity to pre-emptively jump or burrow deep enough into the ground because he knows what the trajectory will be before it's fired. I don't think Deri's small speed advantage will nullify that.



Dr. White said:


> The demon fire can even burn things wholly resistant to fire and won't extinguish like regular fire, so idk how well that would work over time.



If a Power Mochi arm gets burned through (though I think it wouldn't be easy for the armament to be burnt through so it would take too long to be all that effective anyway) he can just form another one with Peerless Donuts. Though he usually just deforms a Power Mochi Arm and forms a new one anyway so he can have it form behind his enemy or at a difficult angle . He's also able to control two at a time (or much more than that if he makes them smaller) so he could use one for defense and one for ranged offense.



Dr. White said:


> True but she can still fly. Also she can emenate darkness from herself if surrounded, which is what she did when she got trapped in an ark.



Katakuri can stretch his limbs like Luffy can, make multiple limbs on top of it to do a better version of Luffy's Gatling, do his own version of Luffy's elephant gun, and can make the peerless donuts/Power Mochi form in the air to smack Derriere down.

She'd need to emanate darkness from herself pretty often considering he can just immediately reform Power Mochi arms after they're destroyed. And that could end up making her waste a lot of energy.




Dr. White said:


> She began tearing up Ludociel, and Monspiet went from losing against Sariel to one shotting sariel and tamriel so yeah the power gained is pretty substantial.The scope of her attacks also get enhanced to the point where a tail attack completely level hundreds of meters of ground/forest.





Dr. White said:


> Not really because he is going to be so focused on defense. Just because she turns feral doesn't mean she is retarted. Indura are beast of destruction and the most animalistic a person can become. Animals have really great instincts, so it's not like she is just going to throw the same 1 two over and over again.



Katakuri can attack and defend at the same time with awakening. I don't think he'd be entirely stuck on defense considering the extent to which he can multi-task and how the ground itself will be disadvantageous to Derriere as it can rise up and surround her so she gets trapped in it .



Dr. White said:


> Yeah, it's malleable and can stretch like we saw with Red Demon Hendricksen's use of it. The point is multiple shadow tendrils attacking someone from different angle, and Deri being slightly faster already can work to overwhelm him.



Jet Culverin wasn't an issue just because it could come from weird angles. I think it being able to gain a speed boost each time it turned was a bigger factor as it became harder to dodge the longer it went on for. If regular Culverin would've worked the same Luffy would've used it against Kata. But we saw with Doflamingo that its easier to avoid a regular culverin as it maintains a constant speed no matter how many times it turns. It took quite a while for regular Culverin to land on Doffy And Doffy is much slower than Kata.

Deri is slightly faster but her tentacles wouldn't gain multiple speed boosts after being fired off so they would be just as easy to predict as regular Culverin.



Dr. White said:


> Comparing oranges and apples Imo/



How so? I think the important point is that by not only dodging every punch that made up Black Mamba (what was essentially a Jet Culverin Gatling) but closing in while doing so Kata showed how truly impressive his CoO and maneuverability really is. Even with how fast Deri is i'm doubtful she would've been able to dodge every attack that makes up Black Mamba if she were put in the same situation.



Dr. White said:


> Uhm I doubt it. She could just dodge if he did this and this wouldn't work against a large aoe attack surrounding him.



You think she wouldn't be surprised at all by Katakuri firing his own arm off like a rocket? Luffy's CoO made big improvements during the fight and Grilled Mochi still slammed into his gut before he could react the first time Kata used it, and still landed on Luffy and sent him flying back the second time Kata used it despite Luffy having gone into his speed oriented G4 form (Snakeman) on top of the CoO improvement.

And Kata's CoO also would help him land it as even if Derriere wasn't surprised by a flaming Mochi arm flying coming at her Kata will know in which direction she would attempt to dodge and he can adjust his aim accordingly before he fires it.

A small speed advantage just isn't enough to counter Kata's big reaction advantage with future sight IMO.

And as for the large AOE attack surrounding him he can use awakening to shield himself from that. I don't think she could vaporize a Mochi Shield in one go and just melting it wouldn't matter as it would've still served its purpose and Kata can disperse it and reform it after.



Dr. White said:


> you make it sound like he can just willy nilly deal with hellfire when he is literally a sugar cake. Hellfire also cucks regen so doubt he can just make more mochi if it's burning him and darkness can cuck his ability to turn into mochi. That's pretty damning for him.



He can just remove the parts of his body that are covered in hellfire and then regen as it would no longer be on him. Grilled Mochi would do just that by firing affected pieces of him off.

And how do you know she can do what Estarossa did? Not only should Esta's power of darkness power of darkness be more powerful than Derriere's but Esta took in a second commandment before he was able to stop Tarmiel from shifting to liquid. Having the power of darkness and being able to use an application of it from a more powerful character when we don't even know if Estarossa could've done it without having 2 commandments already absorbed doesn't make much sense to me.



Dr. White said:


> Derieri is much stronger than any version of Luffy outside of G4. Derieri is also a demon with an extreme pain tolerance (see her arm getting shredded by Sariel and her going with the flow and stabbing him in the eye with her arm bone) and regeneration, so my money is on her being able to wail away and stack her DC without being hindered by hitting something hard.



Even G4 Snakeman Luffy still couldn't clash with Block Mochi without his armament haki covered hand getting hurt and throbbing in pain. And you did just say "outside of G4".

And Luffy's pain tolerance is also very high considering all of the attacks he's endured (even had a chunk of his torso torn off by Kata's spear yet kept fighting) and his rubber body yet the pain still made him stop and blow on his hands.

Katakuri could also just parry Derriere's punches with Block Mochi instead (or counter punch her) since its dense enough I doubt she'd be able to prevent her punches from getting knocked away by it and Kata's CoO would assist him in timing the parry.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> His future Sight gives him much more time to react. It gives him the opportunity to pre-emptively jump or burrow deep enough into the ground because he knows what the trajectory will be before it's fired. I don't think Deri's small speed advantage will nullify that.


There is a difference between using his sight to react better, and physically moving underground or jumping into the air in order to avoid the faster Derieri who also has ridiculous sensing. She is also able to react on a dime, and Kata's does not have some endless filter of future processing going on. He can be hit lol.




> If a Power Mochi arm gets burned through (though I think it wouldn't be easy for the armament to be burnt through so it would take too long to be all that effective anyway) he can just form another one with Peerless Donuts. Though he usually just deforms a Power Mochi Arm and forms a new one anyway so he can have it form behind his enemy or at a difficult angle . He's also able to control two at a time (or much more than that if he makes them smaller) so he could use one for defense and one for ranged offense.


In this potential AOE?







> Katakuri can stretch his limbs like Luffy can, make multiple limbs on top of it to do a better version of Luffy's Gatling, do his own version of Luffy's elephant gun, and can make the peerless donuts/Power Mochi form in the air to smack Derriere down.


Good luck taggin her when she is faster, has amazing senses, good AOE, and can shoot down projectiles.



> She'd need to emanate darkness from herself pretty often considering he can just immediately reform Power Mochi arms after they're destroyed. And that could end up making her waste a lot of energy.


Not really.
> Emanate to escape/nullify
> Fly into the air.

> Profit.






> Katakuri can attack and defend at the same time with awakening. I don't think he'd be entirely stuck on defense considering the extent to which he can multi-task and how the ground itself will be disadvantageous to Derriere as she can get trapped in it.


For indura? Yeah he will. Katakuri had a rough time fighting a mach 1970 Luffy who was also 84 GT. Indura fighters were ragdolling ludociel and two archangels. That's a much higher level of skill Kata would have to deal with.




> Deri is slightly faster but her tentacles wouldn't gain multiple speed boosts after being fired off so they would be just as easy to predict as regular Culverin.


Made up for by her speed.





> How so? I think the important point is that by not only dodging every punch that made up Black Mamba (what was essentially a Jet Culverin Gatling) but closing in while doing so Kata showed how truly impressive his CoO and maneuverability really is. Even with how fast Deri is i'm doubtful she would've been able to dodge every attack that makes up Black Mamba if she were put in the same situation.


Why do you think that? Derieri is skilled enough to go up against Mel in CqC with demon mark.

The same Mel that can do this to a CqC master like Galan


Her senses are ridiculous

*Spoiler*: __ 













> You think she wouldn't be surprised at all by Katakuri firing his own arm off like a rocket? Luffy's CoO made big improvements during the fight and Grilled Mochi still slammed into his gut before he could react the first time Kata used it, and still landed on Luffy and sent him flying back the second time Kata used it despite Luffy having gone into his speed oriented G4 form (Snakeman) on top of the CoO improvement.


She might be, but she also has good chances of seeing it coming. In indura form she will be pressing Katakuri and her instincts should be >>>> base.



> And Kata's CoO also would help him land it as even if Derriere wasn't surprised by a flaming Mochi arm flying coming at her Kata will know in which direction she would attempt to dodge and he can adjust his aim accordingly before he fires it.


and she can sense his presence and the things coming at her in order to dodge accordingly. She can also use her darkness to cover from things she wouldn't otherwise be able to block.



> A small speed advantage just isn't enough to counter Kata's big reaction advantage with future sight IMO.


Because you overhype it. It's a couple second peak into the future that isn't always active and is fallible. It's a bit better than other sensing, but nothing like what people make it out to be like some omnipresence + ultra instinct.

Luffy did it and he is slower than Derieri. Indura form is much faster and can make chump change of guys faster than Luffy and Kata.



> And as for the large AOE attack surrounding him he can use awakening to shield himself from that. I don't think she could vaporize a Mochi Shield in one go and just melting it wouldn't matter as it would've still served its purpose and Kata can disperse it and reform it after.


That will help him survive but the hell fire can burn all day and if he gets hit with darkness his ability to control/form mochi is gone, which would fuck him. Derieri has the aerial advantage.




> He can just remove the parts of his body that are covered in hellfire and then regen as it would no longer be on him. Grilled Mochi would do just that by firing affected pieces of him off.


What if he gets tagged in the face?

Or can't do that because of darkness? Base Kata with no DF vs Indura form isn't going to go well for him.

You underestimate how well the Demons arsenals are for wearing opponents down/nullfying them.

> Large AOE hellfire that can burn things that can't be burnt by natural fire. Negates regen, and keeps burning.
> Darkness to nullify abilities, and use for offense/defense.
> Regeneration.
> Flight
all of that begins to add up over time, and when she goes Indura her stats skyrocket, and he will be even more hardpressed by just her CqC let alone the above.


> And how do you know she can do what Estarossa did? Not only should Esta's power of darkness power of darkness be more powerful than Derriere's but Esta took in a second commandment before he was able to stop Tarmiel from shifting to liquid.


So? It isn't something like a stat that goes up and down with "MORE POWER!". It's a natural characteristic of darkness. If it infects a person, or covers a thing, etc. It nullifies it. That's what Estarossa did to Escanor's sun, but since Escanor was powering up he was able to overcome the nullification and burn away the darkness.

Derieri is one of the strongest demons worthy enough to perform Indura, and Indura are the most feared Demons. So she isn't even short on accomplishments herself.



> Having the power of darkness and being able to use an application of it from a more powerful character when we don't even know if Estarossa could've done it without having 2 commandments already absorbed doesn't make much sense to me.


These are all non sequitur's. The darkness carriers the natural ability to nullify. His darkness being stronger due to powerlevel doesn't change it's natural characteristics. It's like saying the Red Demons fire can't negate regen like Meliodas because Meliodas is a much stronger demon than them.




> Even G4 Snakeman Luffy still couldn't clash with Block Mochi without his armament haki covered hand getting hurt and throbbing in pain. And you did just say "outside of G4".


Okay? She has regen, Darkness to cover her hands, and gets 100 tons more force with everyblow. Also this is her pain tolerance

*Spoiler*: __ 








Punching something hard isn't doing jack to her and she becomes stronger than G4 with Indura.



> And Luffy's pain tolerance is also very high considering all of the attacks he's endured (even had a chunk of his torso torn off by Kata's spear yet kept fighting) and his rubber body yet the pain still made him stop and blow on his hands.


He still mentions that it hurts, or stops to address the pain, etc. Derieri's above feat is ridiculous and shows how savage she is.


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## Mythoclast (Aug 20, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> And how do you know she can do what Estarossa did? Not only should Esta's power of darkness power of darkness be more powerful than Derriere's but Esta took in a second commandment before he was able to stop Tarmiel from shifting to liquid. Having the power of darkness and being able to use an application of it from a more powerful character when we don't even know if Estarossa could've done it without having 2 commandments already absorbed doesn't make much sense to me.


The traits of darkness are dependent on utility,not power.Shouldn't be a problem for Derierre considering her status in the Demon clan.

Base Estarossa already nullified Tarmiel's water body.

*Spoiler*: __ 









Not to mention Derierre's darkness was interacting with Ark,which are made of light particles.And that's considered a logia in the OP setting.
Tagging logias isn't a problem for NNT's demons.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

And he's not even a demon


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> The traits of darkness are dependent on utility,not power.Shouldn't be a problem for Derierre considering her status in the Demon clan.
> 
> *Base Estarossa already nullified Tarmiel's water body*.
> 
> ...



He had galan's commandment by then, as well as Monspiet's although he hadn't absorbed it yet.


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## Mythoclast (Aug 20, 2018)

Blαck said:


> He had galan's commandment by then, as well as Monspiet's although he hadn't absorbed it yet.


His overall power was 60k which is his base.


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## Blαck (Aug 20, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> His overall power was 60k which is his base.



That's half the problem, we don't know how much stronger he was after absorbing galan's commandment.


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## xenos5 (Aug 20, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> The traits of darkness are dependent on utility,not power.Shouldn't be a problem for Derierre considering her status in the Demon clan.
> 
> Base Estarossa already nullified Tarmiel's water body.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Nope, not only was Tarmiel not in liquid form when that happened Tarmiel and Sariel both broke out of that darkness easily 

and Base Estarossa tried to attack Tarmiel later only for him to go into liquid form so it had no effect  .

Base Estarossa didn't counter the liquid form.

Only Estarossa with 2 commandments was able to do it and he had to bear hug Tarmiel to get him exposed to his boosted darkness long enough for it to work.







Mythoclast said:


> Not to mention Derierre's darkness was interacting with Ark,which are made of light particles.And that's considered a logia in the OP setting.
> Tagging logias isn't a problem for NNT's demons.



She overpowered the ark with energy. More powerful energy destroying weaker energy isn't the same as preventing shapeshifting like Estarossa with 2 commandments did.

I doubt Derriere could catch Katakuri in that bear hug Tarmiel got caught in anyway considering Kata would see it coming with his future sight and pre-emptively deform his body to get out of it.


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## Dr. White (Aug 20, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Nope, not only was Tarmiel not in liquid form when that happened


his liquid form is passive as its his grace.




> Tarmiel and Sariel both broke out of that darkness easily


By evolving more power and using the specific counter of darkness to negate the nullification. The lower form still got wrecked. That's more of a resistance feat for them, it means nothing about people without resistance.



> and Base Estarossa tried to attack Tarmiel later only for him to go into liquid form so it had no effect  .


Do you see darkness there to infect Tamriel? He used a regular physical strike as he didn't even know what his grace was.



> Base Estarossa didn't counter the liquid form.


yes he did. It's like saying that light doesn't counter demons and darkness because Derieri was able to escape Ark after being injured. Tamriel's lower form got infected and nullified.



> Only Estarossa with 2 commandments was able to do it and he had to bear hug Tarmiel to get him exposed to it long enough for it to work.


Yes....Because in this example....He used darkness. He didn't in the previous one and he now knew of his power lmao. Esta had to get stronger to get over Tamriel's resistance. When we talk about hax we talk about quaality of resistance. Like with mindfuck. It means jackshit if you have no resistance.

The same thing happens with Escanor. Estarossa has Escanor at checkmate because he is nullifying his sun power and plans to full counter his physical strikes. But he didn't Escanor was getting stronger by the second and thus he was able to overcome the hax and gain resistance (his power is also a grace).

*Spoiler*: __ 









A darkness ray is also needed to kill tamriel





> She overpowered the ark with energy. More powerful energy destroying weaker energy isn't the same as preventing shapeshifting like Estarossa with 2 commandments did.


Yes but light specifically counteracts darkness. So she nullified something that is qualitatively > her substance.



> I doubt Derriere could catch Katakuri in that bear hug Tarmiel got caught in anyway considering Kata would see it coming with his future sight and pre-emptively deform his body to get out of it.


A.) Derieri could easily accomplish that as she has better CqC.
B.) She can just use large AOE darkness attacks. Any mochi caught in the aoe can't be used anymore.
C.) She punches and slashes with her claw which can easily infect someone with the darkness like such

*Spoiler*: __


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Fun fact: demons darkness works autonomously and protects the characters without them having to do something. She does not have to actively utilize her darkness to cover herself from harm 

It’s an automatic shielding process to whatever part of a demons body faces an incoming attack.

Derriere therefore wouldn’t need to worry about defense and can just focus on her offense 

Also: obviously darkness is able to nullify Logia. It doesn’t matter what power up Estarossa was on. Similar to how vistas Haki was enough to tag akainus. He may have lacked the means to hurt him, but that doesn’t change the fact that he is able to hit the real body. He only can’t damage it


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

She was also messing up Light/Darkness angel Mael. Granted she needed him held in place to get the combo off, she still built up enough to really injure him.


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## Dellinger (Aug 21, 2018)

White giving estas feats to deri


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

Question tho, what stops kata from bopping her like Mel did to reset the combo counter?


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Question tho, what stops kata from bopping her like Mel did to reset the combo counter?



Nothing, hence Katakuri wins if Indura were restricted.

Derrieres extraordinary senses have caused her to realize that she need to go Indura after 2-3 hits against Ludociel. She doesnt hesitate to use it when outmatched.


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Nothing, hence Katakuri wins if Indura were restricted.
> 
> Derrieres extraordinary senses have caused her to realize that she need to go Indura after 2-3 hits against Ludociel. She doesnt hesitate to use it when outmatched.


Well they start in base and kata only needs one good hit to can her so unless she immediately realizes he's not to be fucked with, flies up and transforms she's done.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Well they start in base and kata only needs one good hit to can her so unless she immediately realizes he's not to be fucked with, flies up and transforms she's done.



Nah, while her base lacks the AP she has crazy endurance. He aint oneshotting here under any circumstances.


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Nah, while her base lacks the AP she has crazy endurance. He aint oneshotting here under any circumstances.



His dc is ~84gt her durability ain't that high, endurance be damned. What do you think her durability is sitting at?


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> His dc is ~84gt her durability ain't that high, endurance be damned. What do you think her durability is sitting at?



Her durability is at least 48-96 GT. Only her AP is relatively low with mere 24GT and only after 50+ hits reaching 96 in base.


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Her durability is at least 48-96 GT. Only her AP is relatively low with mere 24GT and only after 50+ hits reaching 96 in base.



Her durability definitely not 96gt unless we're being generous with her indura form. In base we can reasonably place her at 48gt but scaling her to the highest current feat by 2 of the strongest characters is pushing it. Grilled mochi floors her...if he lands it


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Her durability definitely not 96gt unless we're being generous with her indura form. In base we can reasonably place her at 48gt but scaling her to the highest current feat by 2 of the strongest characters is pushing it. Grilled mochi floors her...if he lands it



Its not like every single hit is 84GT. Surely all of them pack a punch and are significantly above her paygrade, but they would not down her. He would have to completely go all out with the first attacks to floor her. And thats really not his modus operandi. Her being able to transform to Indura, which she does after being downed 1-2 times is more than likely.


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Its not like every single hit is 84GT. Surely all of them pack a punch and are significantly above her paygrade, but they would not down her. He would have to completely go all out with the first attacks to floor her. And thats really not his modus operandi. Her being able to transform to Indura, which she does after being downed 1-2 times is more than likely.



They're bloodlusted by default via the op not specifying so kata is going for the kill asap. And that's why I mentioned grilled mochi because I wasn't implying any random hit would win it.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> They're bloodlusted by default via the op not specifying so kata is going for the kill asap. And that's why I mentioned grilled mochi because I wasn't implying any random hit would win it.



Her being twice as fast would leave her more than a chance to avoid being hit by it tho


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## Blαck (Aug 21, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Her being twice as fast would leave her more than a chance to avoid being hit by it tho



Almost twice as fast~ his senses would help edge out the difference. Not to say he's got this in the bag but it's an easier win for him only requiring a named tech while she either has to  somehow negate his regen and get the combo up 52 or go for indura right off the bat and try to pressure him with hellfire assaults.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Almost twice as fast~ his senses would help edge out the difference. Not to say he's got this in the bag but it's an easier win for him only requiring a named tech while she either has to  somehow negate his regen and get the combo up 52 or go for indura right off the bat and try to pressure him with hellfire assaults.



Yeha sure, with her having to actually decide to go Indura he has chances to end matters before she does. However in the end its still a game of probabilities. How many times would he land that mochi and how many times not? How many times would it completely end the fight and how many times not? I mean 84GT hitting a 48 GT defense doesnt necessarily result in the latter being completely obliterated each and every time. 

But yeha, Indura Derriere would be a better fight in general.


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## Mythoclast (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> That's half the problem, we don't know how much stronger he was after absorbing galan's commandment.


He hadn't absorbed Galan's decree until he exited Tarmiel Ocean dimension.This is him when he absorbed Truth.

He was still in his base form in the panel I posted above. 




xenos5 said:


> Nope, not only was Tarmiel not in liquid form when that happened Tarmiel and Sariel both broke out of that darkness easily


Pretty sure his liquid form is passive and Estarossa outright states in the panel I posted that he won't be able to use his Grace due to the darkness.Breaking out of it is irrelevant to the discussion. 



> and Base Estarossa tried to attack Tarmiel later only for him to go into liquid form so it had no effect  .


No shit.There isn't a shred of darkness on his hand.



> Base Estarossa didn't counter the liquid form.


The panel I posted states otherwise.



> Only Estarossa with 2 commandments was able to do it and he had to bear hug Tarmiel to get him exposed to his boosted darkness long enough for it to work.


Base Estarossa tagged Tarmiel with his darkness and negated his water body.What part of that don't you get?



> She overpowered the ark with energy. More powerful energy destroying weaker energy isn't the same as preventing shapeshifting like Estarossa with 2 commandments did.


Her darkness dispersed particles of light.Pretty clear cut to me 



> I doubt Derriere could catch Katakuri in that bear hug Tarmiel got caught in anyway considering Kata would see it coming with his future sight and pre-emptively deform his body to get out of it.


Why the fuck would she need to hug him for?All she has to do is coat her body with darkness in order to smack logias as much as she pleases.2 decree Estarossa had to coat his body in darkness first before he was able to physically touch Tarmiel's body.

So she can either throw darkness attacks like base Estarossa did or coat her body in darkness like 2 decree Estarossa if she wants to engage in cqc.


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Well they start in base and kata only needs one good hit to can her so unless she immediately realizes he's not to be fucked with, flies up and transforms she's done.


You realize that you need a signifigant advantage to one ahot correct? 23 Gt vs 84Gt is not that big of a gap. Both are island level. Let alone only a 2x gap


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## xenos5 (Aug 21, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> Why the fuck would she need to hug him for?All she has to do is coat her body with darkness in order to smack logias as much as she pleases.2 decree Estarossa had to coat his body in darkness first before he was able to physically touch Tarmiel's body.



Katakuri isn’t a logia, he’s a special paramecia. And coating her fists in darkness would do nothing to prevent him from shape shifting as he would create a hole in himself BEFORE she could land a punch.



Mythoclast said:


> So she can either throw darkness attacks like base Estarossa did or coat her body in darkness like 2 decree Estarossa if she wants to engage in cqc.



You don’t seem to get it. Katakuri uses his future sight to *pre-emptively* shift his body. He can deform his entire body into a Mochi stream or make as many holes in his body as he likes.

He would need to be coated in darkness with something like the bear hug Estarossa used because darkness attacks wouldn’t land on him to begin with otherwise. And getting him in that bear hug to begin with wouldn’t be likely.



Dr. White said:


> You realize that you need a signifigant advantage to one ahot correct? *23 Gt vs 84Gt* is not that big of a gap. Both are island level. Let alone only a 2x gap



Isn’t that closer to a 3-4x gap?

Katakuri’s primary weapon is a spear so that also adds a piercing effect to the attacks he uses it with. He spins it around at such extreme speed it’s like a blender so I could definitely see him tearing apart her torso and most or all of her hearts with it. Heck considering she needs six hearts to use the Indura transformation and is only left with one heart after can’t she not afford to lose any hearts before transforming as she would die if she tried to attempt it with only six hearts or less?


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Katakuri isn’t a logia, he’s a special paramecia. And coating her fists in darkness would do nothing to prevent him from shape shifting as he would create a hole in himself BEFORE she could land a punch.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Her DC is 23 GT, endurance is twice that and she has regen.

And no darkness would still cancel his mochi when it infects ir engulfs him


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## xenos5 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Her DC is 23 GT, endurance is twice that and she has regen.



Endurance isn’t the same as durability. And that doesn’t counter the part of my post that I edited in.

Derriere cant afford to lose any hearts if she wants to transform into Indura. Katakuri’s spear should be especially effective in ripping out hearts or tearing them up inside her body to the point they’re unusable.

And as I recall slashing/piercing acts as a + 1 to attacks which is why despite Raiden being town level it’s accepted that with his HF Blade his upper limit would be being able to damage small city level characters as it assists in concentrating his force into a smaller area.



Dr. White said:


> And no darkness would still cancel his mochi when it infects ir engulfs him



Can’t he just remove the part of himself that’s infected with darkness before it can spread or force it off his body with Conqueror’s haki considering Katakuri and Luffy’s clashing Conqueror’s haki was powerful enough to cause parts of the mirror world to break around them?

I don’t think it would be that easy to cover Kata in darkness. He can even turn into just a stream of Mochi so his body loses all form and he can dodge in ways most can’t (so if he’s somehow surrounded on all sides he can can go under and around).


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Endurance isn’t the same as durability. And that doesn’t counter the part of my post that I edited in.


It's both for her and once again she has regen.



> Derriere cant afford to lose any hearts if she wants to transform into Indura. Katakuri’s spear should be especially effective in ripping out hearts or tearing them up inside her body to the point they’re unusable.


Katakuri doesn't know about he hearts and Derieri is obviously going to be dodging, flying, etc. Her darkness also autoreacts for her to protect her, and by the time she realizes she can't beat Kata in base the indura will come out.



> And as I recall slashing/piercing acts as a + 1 to attacks which is why despite Raiden being town level it’s accepted that with his HF Blade his upper limit would be being able to damage small city level characters as it assists in concentrating his force into a smaller area.


Raiden's blade is specifically tuned for doing that.





> Can’t he just remove the part of himself that’s infected with darkness before it can spread or force it off his body with Conqueror’s haki considering Katakuri and Luffy’s clashing Conqueror’s haki was powerful enough to cause parts of the mirror world to break around them?


Not really given that the faster angels who have light powers and graces to counteract darkness couldn't. 

You also keep forgetting being slashes with darkness (Deri's main weapon) will allow her to hit his true body and stop him from being able to use intang. 



> I don’t think it would be that easy to cover Kata in darkness. He can even turn into just a stream of Mochi so his body loses all form and he can dodge in ways most can’t (so if he’s somehow surrounded on all sides he can can go under and around).


Idk why you think that will help with the AOE Deri can muster, and the fact that she literallly uses darkness as a weapon.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Aug 21, 2018)

Such a nice design.


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## xenos5 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> It's both for her and once again she has regen.



She can't regen a heart after its been destroyed though. And considering she needs six hearts to go into indura she can't afford to lose a single heart.



Dr. White said:


> Katakuri doesn't know about he hearts and Derieri is obviously going to be dodging, flying, etc. *Her darkness also autoreacts for her to protect her*, and by the time she realizes she can't beat Kata in base the indura will come out.



When did it do that? I recall her using Darkness to form claws but don't recall it auto-reacting. Can you post a scan of that?

And considering how much Derriere resorts to melee why do you think she would start flying and going with ranged attacks as soon as the fight begins? Derriere doesn't have knowledge of Katakuri's awakening so she won't have any idea that she could get trapped in the ground and stabbed more easily by Kata's spear while she's immobilized. Kata's awakening was fast enough and powerful enough it restrained Luffy while he was in the middle of transforming into Gear 4 and prevented him from doing it the first time.

Katakuri doesn't have to know her hearts are a weakness to use his main weapon (his spear) and try to stab her with it. If anything destroying one of her hearts when she has 7 of them spread throughout her body to start with shouldn't be too hard as there would be multiple targets he could slash even unintentionally just by stabbing and slashing through her torso.



Dr. White said:


> Raiden's blade is specifically tuned for doing that.



Yeah, I know that. It destabilizes molecular bonds. But the point is that in base she definitely couldn't stop his slashes from going through her body and heck even in indura the difference (84 GT to 94 GT) definitely still wouldn't be enough that she could tank his slashes considering how the force is concentrated.



Dr. White said:


> Not really given that the faster angels who have light powers and graces to counteract darkness couldn't.



Is Nerobasta as strong as Katakuri?

It all seems proportional. If you're stronger than the darkness you can force it off of you and if the darkness is stronger than the Ark spell it nullifies it. So I could definitely see Conqueror's Haki assisting Katakuri with that.



Dr. White said:


> You also keep forgetting being slashes with darkness (Deri's main weapon) will allow her to hit his true body and stop him from being able to use intang.



Katakuri isn't an actual logia. He's a special paramecia as you know. So he doesn't passively let attacks go through him. He can't do that. He shifts his body purposely so they go through holes he creates from what I understand.

And the whole point of him training his CoO to the level that he did is that it made him a master at dodging and predicting what his enemies would do. Even G4 Boundman was too slow to land any attacks on him (with a Kong Organ which is essentially Boundman's version of the gatling) after he calmed down and regained usage of is CoO.

He stated himself that he hadn't been hit for years before his fight with Luffy (which is very impressive considering Big Mom's crew had to have fought other high level pirate crews while they were active).

Derriere is not even 2x faster than him. The speed difference is relatively small so it will be uncommon for her to land attacks on him and who knows if whenever she does land an attack on him if it will be coated in darkness or she'll just have been lucky enough to land an attack in the first place.



Dr. White said:


> Idk why you think that will help with the AOE Deri can muster, and the fact that she literallly uses darkness as a weapon.



Katakuri's AOE and Range with Awakening is no joke either.

He can block darkness from reaching him, boot himself off the ground through the help of his awakening, stretch his arm and grab onto a ledge and retract himself to it to pull himself away, etc...

He's not going to be helpless against it. It's not an inevitability that it will touch him. She'll have to be serious and use tricky tactics. He won't be impossible to hit but i'm just saying that he won't be easy to hit at all due to his CoO and other abilities. He will dodge and block attacks more often than not during this fight. 

He's not an easy target. She isn't either but awakening can limit her mobility and without knowledge she won't see it coming.


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> She can't regen a heart after its been destroyed though. And considering she needs six hearts to go into indura she can't afford to lose a single heart.


Okay? Good thing she has better speed, good senses, island level stats, flight, darkness auto defense, and Kata has no knowledge of this. How long did it take Kata to stab Luffy? Derieri is also massively skilled as we saw by Mel with a sword not being able ro demolish her.




> When did it do that? I recall her using Darkness to form claws but don't recall it auto-reacting. Can you post a scan of that?


 



> And considering how much Derriere resorts to melee why do you think she would start flying and going with ranged attacks as soon as the fight begins?


I don't think she does that right away. She won't need to.



> Derriere doesn't have knowledge of Katakuri's awakening so she won't have any idea that she could get trapped in the ground and stabbed more easily by Kata's spear while she's immobilized.


That's cool but she doeshave amazing senses which I already showed you. She could sense vivian using clairvoyance to spy on her, the much less impressive Galan sensed Merlin about to cast a bfr. All she has to do is fly away (at speeds faster than kata's mochi), and I already explained to you that she can use hellfire and darkness omni directionally from her body, or control her shadow to cut out etc.



> Kata's awakening was fast enough and powerful enough it restrained Luffy while he was in the middle of transforming into Gear 4 and prevented him from doing it the first time.


Does Luffy have Derieri's skillset?



> Katakuri doesn't have to know her hearts are a weakness to use his main weapon (his spear) and try to stab her with it.


he fights mostly with his fist. He would also still have to pinpoint the hearts, which isn't that easy. Galan lost no hearts from being cut in half, Fraudrin got a whole blown through his torso, Derieri got her chest blown out. So chances are slim. 



> If anything destroying one of her hearts when she has 7 of them spread throughout her body to start with shouldn't be too hard as there would be multiple targets he could slash even unintentionally just by stabbing and slashing through her torso.


No. See above.





> Yeah, I know that. It destabilizes molecular bonds. But the point is that in base she definitely couldn't stop his slashes from going through her body and heck even in indura the difference (84 GT to 94 GT) definitely still wouldn't be enough that she could tank his slashes considering how the force is concentrated.


This is true, but good luck to him hitting her in a heart.




> Is Nerobasta as strong as Katakuri?


nope



> It all seems proportional. If you're stronger than the darkness you can force it off of you and if the darkness is stronger than the Ark spell it nullifies it. So I could definitely see Conqueror's Haki assisting Katakuri with that.


Katakuri doesn't have holy light based abilities. We've also never seen CoC be used in the manner you attempting to use it. Also wouldn't help if he is legit infected by darkness.





> Katakuri isn't an actual logia. He's a special paramecia as you know. So he doesn't passively let attacks go through him. He can't do that. He shifts his body purposely so they go through holes he creates from what I understand.


Yes but he still turns into the substance. Someone like Trebol couldn't do that. 



> He stated himself that he hadn't been hit for years before his fight with Luffy (which is very impressive considering Big Mom's crew had to have fought other high level pirate crews while they were active).


Luffy still tagged him multiple times, and doesn't have any aoe. 



> Derriere is not even 2x faster than him. The speed difference is relatively small so it will be uncommon for her to land attacks on him and who knows if whenever she does land an attack on him if it will be coated in darkness or she'll just have been lucky enough to land an attack in the first place.


She is still getting her moves off faster. She has the advantage both in CqC skill and speed. With amazing senses of her own. 

Deri pretty much always attacks with darkness..





> Katakuri's AOE and Range with Awakening is no joke either.


Nothing compared to Demons/NnT nigs in general, flight also counters it hard.



> He can block darkness from reaching him, boot himself off the ground through the help of his awakening, stretch his arm and grab onto a ledge and retract himself to it to pull himself away, etc...


And Derieri can follow or just blast him with AOE. 



> He's not going to be helpless against it. It's not an inevitability that it will touch him. She'll have to be serious and use tricky tactics. He won't be impossible to hit but i'm just saying that he won't be easy to hit at all due to his CoO and other abilities. He will dodge and block attacks more often than not during this fight.


They both will be hard to hit. But once Indura comes out he is getting rushed and pressured. 



> He's not an easy target. She isn't either but awakening can limit her mobility and without knowledge she won't see it coming.


Sensing + flight counters awakening. Kata will have a much harder time dodging from the ground than her from the air.


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## RavenSupreme (Aug 21, 2018)

To further underline the automatic process of Darkness, since it is not explained in that panel, here is the confirmation:

2.bp.blogspot.com/-SEXbs8nNEIU/V67MBobpl2I/AAAAAAACG7w/jvRV0Q9wXyE1S12XyoAvErZEBb59e-yhQCHM/s16000/0048-007.png

2.bp.blogspot.com/-63nD0ULjX9M/V67MLfjLnfI/AAAAAAACG7w/WuldS9H9IToI9qHq8oEMBR5c_2D2t7T_ACHM/s16000/0048-008.png


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## xenos5 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Okay? Good thing she has better speed, good senses, island level stats, flight, darkness auto defense, and Kata has no knowledge of this. How long did it take Kata to stab Luffy? Derieri is also massively skilled as we saw by Mel with a sword not being able to demolish her.



Good senses aren't the same as precognition. Luffy had actual precognition (CoO) and it was growing more potent as the fight went on yet he still couldn't predict or properly dodge the majority of Katakuri's attacks (or land nearly as many of his own attacks). The ratio of attacks Katakuri landed to the ratio of attacks Luffy landed during the fight was definitely skewed massively to Katakuri. 

Luffy had the initial advantage of being able to move his body in weird ways that Katakuri hadn't dealt with before (Luffy taking his head and purposely stretching it away to dodge an attack) but Katakuri was still landing plenty of attacks in the first round of the fight. 

Luffy's CoO made huge improvement later which allowed him to dodge a lot more attacks than he had previously but he had to focus entirely on dodging rather than landing any attacks in return. He was stuck on the defensive for the most part.

Even when Luffy used his new speed-based G4 form (Snakeman) in combination with his massively improved CoO Katakuri was still landing more attacks than Luffy was able to land on him. 

So if Katakuri's future sight gives him a huge edge against someone who has multiple factors helping him (Rubber body allowing for dodging in weird ways, Precognition that was getting better and better as the fight progressed, has very high combat experience, trained under Rayleigh, etc...) I don't think Derriere's auto-reacting darkness, skill and good senses would perfectly equate or be superior to all of those. 

Since Katakuri is stronger than Base Derriere he could very well slice through the darkness straight to her body even if it auto-reacts. 

Mel not demolishing her seems less to do with skill and more to do with Derriere being more powerful than the current level of strength he was at (do you think Derriere is skilled enough to the point where if she were reduced to the level of strength Meliodas used fight Dolor and Gloxinia she could fight both of them in the way Meliodas did, where he always kept one down so he could focus on the other and managed to beat both of them in that way?). He demolished her and styled on her heavily by stopping her from performing any combos after he came back from the dead and returned to his old strength. Both of their fights seemed to be determined by who was stronger at the moment. Though when he had the power advantage he seemed a lot more skilled as during their first fight he at least managed to block most of her punches at the expense of his arms while in their second fight he looked like he was dealing with her rather casually. 

I don't think her senses are better than precognition so if Luffy was caught by surprise by Katakuri's awakening Derriere could be as well. Katakuri can also apply the stickiness of his mochi to any part of his body (which allowed him to initially trap Luffy so Jinbe had to save him). So he would have many opportunities to trap Derriere and he could stab her repeatedly with his spear (which is his main weapon so he's very likely to resort to it often. He only didn't use it initially against Luffy since he wanted to show he was better than Luffy in Luffy's own playing field of stretchy attacks by using better versions of Luffy's own attacks to demoralize him). 



Dr. White said:


> I don't think she does that right away. She won't need to.
> 
> 
> That's cool but she doeshave amazing senses which I already showed you. She could sense vivian using clairvoyance to spy on her, the much less impressive Galan sensed Merlin about to cast a bfr. All she has to do is fly away (at speeds faster than kata's mochi), and I already explained to you that she can use hellfire and darkness omni directionally from her body, or control her shadow to cut out etc.
> ...



There are things Luffy had that Derriere doesn't have so I think it balances out. Instincts/energy sensing that can sense someone from far away aren't a complete equivalent to battle precognition I would say though. I do not think she would be as hard to catch off guard/surprise as someone who can see a bit into the future. The ground beneath her would already be touching her feet as the fight would start on the ground. So I don't see why she'd be able to think to jump up or fly in time before she's caught. 

I don't think Darkness would completely block all the attacks of a character stronger than her and the fire can be blocked by a mochi wall or Power Mochi Fist formed by awakening. Heck the Power Mochi fist could likely punch straight through the fire considering its coated in armament. And Katakuri can just make attacks stretch higher off the ground if she tries to fly higher. One of them will hit and knock her back to the ground (especially since he can surround her on all sides with awakening). 



Dr. White said:


> he fights mostly with his fist. He would also still have to pinpoint the hearts, which isn't that easy. Galan lost no hearts from being cut in half, Fraudrin got a whole blown through his torso, Derieri got her chest blown out. So chances are slim.
> 
> No. See above.
> 
> This is true, but good luck to him hitting her in a heart.



As I said earlier in this response he doesn't actually mostly fight with his fist. His spear is his main weapon and he used punches at the beginning specifically to show Luffy that he could use better versions of Luffy's own attacks. 

And he could stab her many times as soon as she gets immobilized by getting stuck in either awakening or one of Katakuri's other Mochi attacks as most of them have the stickiness attribute (even his ultimate attack Diced Mochi keeps the stickiness attribute despite also being covered in armament). 



Dr. White said:


> nope
> 
> Yes but he still turns into the substance. Someone like Trebol couldn't do that.
> 
> Katakuri doesn't have holy light based abilities. We've also never seen CoC be used in the manner you attempting to use it. Also wouldn't help if he is legit infected by darkness.



It wouldn't be easy for him to be infected by darkness. Even if it infects whatever it touches he doesn't have to directly touch it. A Power Mochi fist made through awakening could punch a huge hole through any cocoon of darkness Derriere might try to form around Katakuri. 

Though I don't think it actually instantly infects like that to begin with. After all I don't think we've seen someone be instantly covered in darkness the moment they're punched by a darkness covered fist. So Katakuri should be able to use his Block Mochi/armament covered arms to to block Darkness or strike/tear through it before it can envelop him. They can tank most of Base Derriere's attacks considering they can make even G4 Snakeman Luffy's armament covered hands hurt when he tried to clash with Katakuri's Block Mochi fists. 



Dr. White said:


> Luffy still tagged him multiple times, and doesn't have any aoe.



Even with Gear 4 Luffy couldn't hit Katakuri even once before he started improving his CoO to get closer (but still below) to Katakuri's level of future sight with the exception of Katakuri getting pissed by his secret being found out breaking his concentration. 

Such a big deal was made out of it any time Luffy actually managed to land an attack during the fight because it was so rare and it took either Katakuri being nerfed (CoO not working due to being pissed) or Luffy's CoO being buffed for it to happen. 

And AOE attacks can be blocked by Mochi Barriers that can disperse and reform as many times as needed. 



Dr. White said:


> She is still getting her moves off faster. She has the advantage both in CqC skill and speed. With amazing senses of her own.
> 
> Deri pretty much always attacks with darkness..
> 
> ...



I see you're emphasizing her flight pretty heavily. But she can still be knocked to the ground by attacks that stretch above her and slam down.

Awakening can come from all sides (Katakuri can form Peerless Donuts/Power Mochi far into the air by extending it upwards) and I don't see her being able to defend at all sides at all times. 

And with CoO Katakuri will know her flight path exactly so he can set up traps knowing exactly where she will go or force her to dodge in any way she flies into a different trap to avoid one of them. He knows how to leverage his future sight to its full tactical advantage (he prepared Mochi ear plugs for all of his allies before Big Mom could scream and knock most of them out).


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

xenos listen. I am not responding to this unless you condense your points, or counters to my points. I am too drunk and this had gone on too long.


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## xenos5 (Aug 21, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> xenos listen. I am not responding to this unless you condense your points, or counters to my points. I am too drunk and this had gone on too long.



We can continue this tomorrow when you're not drunk.

I respect you dude and i'm enjoying this so respond whenever you feel up to it.


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## Dr. White (Aug 21, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> We can continue this tomorrow when you're not drunk.
> 
> I respect you dude and i'm enjoying this so respond whenever you feel up to it.


Sweet sounds good.

also sorry if I get a bit course with the language. I just get that way. It's no disrespect unless I talk to you like Kaant


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## Blade (Dec 6, 2018)

now that Kata is fully island level+ and had his upgrades overall

i don't want this one to be listed as ''inconclusive''

who wins now, between them?

let's go, once again


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Well her Darkness still provides a substantial advantage since it autonomous provides Island+ defenses on top her own body durability which has Island+ stats as well -  something Kata cant really overcome.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 6, 2018)

Indura Deri should win, she should also be able to with soul rip. Otherwise she loses


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Well her Darkness still provides a substantial advantage since it autonomous provides Island+ defenses on top her own body durability which has Island+ stats as well -  something Kata cant really overcome.



Katakuri’s the same with his awakening (has island level+ defenses on top of island level durability).

Except awakening has a wider variety of shapes it can form into due to Mochi being so malleable and it can come from anywhere around the battlefield due to being the ground itself turned into Mochi.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Katakuri’s the same with his awakening (has island level+ defenses on top of island level durability).
> 
> Except awakening has a wider variety of shapes it can form into due to Mochi being so malleable and it can come from anywhere around the battlefield due to being the ground itself turned into Mochi.



I dont think that him turning the battlefield into mochi is a major advantage, seeing how Derriere has flight. In addition, a direct physical brawl is the least thing Katakuri wants. Not only does he have less AP and Dura than her (84 to 96) but Derrieres natural ability reinforces each of her strike, meaning the initial difference in power gets even bigger the more they exchange blows.

In addition SoulRip is a danger in of itself


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> I dont think that him turning the battlefield into mochi is a major advantage, seeing how Derriere has flight. In addition, a direct physical brawl is the least thing Katakuri wants. Not only does he have less AP and Dura than her (84 to 96) but Derrieres natural ability reinforces each of her strike, meaning the initial difference in power gets even bigger the more they exchange blows.
> 
> In addition SoulRip is a danger in of itself



G4 Boundman Luffy had flight but that didn’t keep him from getting knocked back into mirror world walls over and over by Power Mochi until G4 ran out. 

Derrière also doesn’t have armament while Katakuri has advanced armament that is able to make even G4 Snakeman Luffy’s armament covered fists throb in pain despite him also having island level +stats. So with Block Mochi and Future Sight I doubt she could get a full combo going as Katakuri could interrupt it either by dodging or parrying (sorta like what Meliodas did).

Then there’s the trident. The longer they fight the more hearts she’ll lose as they get stabbed or pierced through. With Katakuri’s ultimate move (Diced Mochi) it also has a piercing effect due to being shaped like a mace with armament covered spikes so she could lose multiple hearts if hit with that.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> G4 Boundman Luffy had flight but that didn’t keep him from getting knocked back into mirror world walls over and over by Power Mochi until G4 ran out.
> 
> Derrière also doesn’t have armament while Katakuri has advanced armament that is able to make even G4 Snakeman Luffy’s armament covered fists throb in pain despite him also having island level +stats. So with Block Mochi and Future Sight I doubt she could get a full combo going as Katakuri could interrupt it either by dodging or parrying (sorta like what Meliodas did).
> 
> Then there’s the trident. The longer they fight the more hearts she’ll lose as they get stabbed or pierced through. With Katakuri’s ultimate move (Diced Mochi) it also has a piercing effect due to being shaped like a mace with armament covered spikes so she could lose multiple hearts if hit with that.



You can not compare Boundmans moderate air manouverability with a true flyer like Derriere. Her having the clear agility advantage at least in the air compared to both Luffy and Kata, who cant fly at all from what I recall, cant be denied.

Derriere not having Armament is not an argument tho. Similary I could say Katakuri doesnt have Darknes Coverage or Stat amplification on hit. Both provide additional firepower compared to what they get regulary scaled to, however both are rather unquantifiable in nature. In crossverse battles  they both however only have access to their respective scaling. And contrary to Haki, Darkness is an actual additional layer of defense which autonomously works to help out the character. Haki is just the strenghtening of the body part himself. One therefore is clearly superior to the other, albeit both just get scaled to one single value. 

Future sight also is something which may be useful to prolong things for a while however she is about twice as fast as him. That, paired with the aforementioned maeuverability advantage will not cause her to randomly getting stabbed. I also like to once again put emphasis on her very casual used SoulRip ability which works on touch and we know that regardless if you are on Ban or Escanor levels - getting soulripped with just that touch is something which happens. 

Its a lot closer now than before tho. 

If all things go down south, she could still go Indura tho - seeing how she ragdolles 96GT characters and tanks their attacks with literal no scratch.


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> You can not compare Boundmans moderate air manouverability with a true flyer like Derriere. Her having the clear agility advantage at least in the air compared to both Luffy and Kata, who cant fly at all from what I recall, cant be denied.
> 
> Derriere not having Armament is not an argument tho. Similary I could say Katakuri doesnt have Darknes Coverage or Stat amplification on hit. Both provide additional firepower compared to what they get regulary scaled to, however both are rather unquantifiable in nature. In crossverse battles  they both however only have access to their respective scaling. And contrary to Haki, Darkness is an actual additional layer of defense which autonomously works to help out the character. Haki is just the strenghtening of the body part himself. One therefore is clearly superior to the other, albeit both just get scaled to one single value.
> 
> ...



Block Mochi made the hands of a character who was also island level+ DC/durability throb in pain. That isn’t really unquantifiable. I don’t think the small DC advantage Deri has would negate that effect as she’s still just island level+. It may not be solely attributed to advanced armament as well since Block Mochi is a mixture of Dense Mochi and Dense Armament for a defense greater than either of them on their own. The shape makes Katakuri’s arms more like blunt weapons.

Awakening is the perfect tool to trap her or Katakuri could just use a regular armament covered giant Mochi punch (his version of Luffy’s G3) but then shift it into sticky Mochi once his fist clashes with hers. While she’s trapped she can be stabbed much more easily. He can even form a hole in himself and then close it to trap one of her arms in his body when she tries to go for a punch, he did just that to G4 Boundman Luffy (right before he started using Power Mochi). Being able to trap the opponent with stickiness is something Katakuri can do that Derrière can’t replicate.

She can’t even lose one heart if she wants to go Indura. It takes sacrificing six hearts iirc and she starts with 7. Indura is a last resort so for her to get in such a bad position to use in the first place she’s likely to have already lost a heart. And now that I think about it she only has one brain unlike her hearts so if that was stabbed/drilled through then it should straight up kill her


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## B Rabbit (Dec 6, 2018)

I am going to go with Katakuri.

His awakening/future sight combo is going to trap her before she can get anything off.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

Where does 96 GT for Derieri come from?


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Where does 96 GT for Derieri come from?



Dolor Giga Fall calc iirc.

Edit: actually wait.... I think the result was lower than that and 96 GT comes from 2x the result (due to Estarossa Full Countering Escanor’s physical attack and Escanor tanking that force).


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Block Mochi made the hands of a character who was also island level+ DC/durability throb in pain. That isn’t really unquantifiable. I don’t think the small DC advantage Deri has would negate that effect as she’s still just island level+. It may not be solely attributed to advanced armament as well since Block Mochi is a mixture of Dense Mochi and Dense Armament for a defense greater than either of them on their own. The shape makes Katakuri’s arms more like blunt weapons.
> 
> Awakening is the perfect tool to trap her or Katakuri could just use a regular armament covered giant Mochi punch (his version of Luffy’s G3) but then shift it into sticky Mochi once his fist clashes with hers. While she’s trapped she can be stabbed much more easily. He can even form a hole in himself and then close it to trap one of her arms in his body when she tries to go for a punch, he did just that to G4 Boundman Luffy (right before he started using Power Mochi). Being able to trap the opponent with stickiness is something Katakuri can do that Derrière can’t replicate.
> 
> She can’t even lose one heart if she wants to go Indura. It takes sacrificing six hearts iirc and she starts with 7. Indura is a last resort so for her to get in such a bad position to use in the first place she’s likely to have already lost a heart. And now that I think about it she only has one brain unlike her hearts so if that was stabbed/drilled through then it should straight up kill her



Again, just because one character who gets scaled to 84GT manages to make another character who gets scaled to 84GT feel pain does not automatically mean that the very same move will cause a 96GT character to feel the same pain. He surely is able to tango with her physically wise but in the sheer comparison he can dish out less damage while at the same time he can not risk receiving too much damage. A blunt force punching duel is nothing Katakuri will win. He scales to less and he doesnt has a quantifiable boost to his attacks - which Derriere has with his Combo Star. 

Derriere can release her darkness, which in on itself has the same, if not even greater scaling, in a 360 degree around her. She used it to free herself from an attack surrounding her from head to toe. It was even an attack to which she had a vulnerability to. Katakuris attempts of trapping her are therefore of no merit, since what he can use to trap her is still bound by his scaled AP which she exceeds. She does not need to replicate what he can do, he just needs a way around it. And her darkness being bursted from all parts of her body is enough for that to be warranted. 

As for being stabbed, things are not as easy. First of all Katakuri would need to have the AP to pierce through both, her Island+ Darkness and then her Island+ durability. Both get scaled to higher stuff than he gets scaled to. In addition he does not know where he should stab as he does not know where the hearts are located. Something which, by the way, we dont really know as readers yet, as the position seemingly can be changed at whim. For example Meliodas heart was somewhere located in the abdomen, but Derriere, who got a gushing big wound pierced through it from Ludoshiel had none of her hearts attacked. On top of that, just because someone has a piercing weapon does not mean he automatically has the means to kill the opponent with it. Both he and his weapon / attack follow the same rules of the OBD as every other thing, which is energy. And he lacks the energy to penetrate her to make your argument of him arguably stabbing through her hearts and brain valid. 

To conclude, Derriere gets scaled to bigger stuff, Derriere gets scaled to faster stuff, Derriere has flight and agility advantages, Derriere has an actual numerical quantifiable boost to each of her attacks, Derriere has SoulRip which as of yet still has not been adressed, Derriere can release her Darkness from her body as an actual offensive method to deal with possible being trapped.

I dont see how, even without Indura, Derriere is not taking this. Katakuris one advantage is his future sight which I agree will be a hurdle to overcome for Derriere for a while but thats it.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Dolor Giga Fall calc iirc.



That calc yields 23.5 GT.


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Again, just because one character who gets scaled to 84GT manages to make another character who gets scaled to 84GT feel pain does not automatically mean that the very same move will cause a 96GT character to feel the same pain. He surely is able to tango with her physically wise but in the sheer comparison he can dish out less damage while at the same time he can not risk receiving too much damage. A blunt force punching duel is nothing Katakuri will win. He scales to less and he doesnt has a quantifiable boost to his attacks - which Derriere has with his Combo Star.
> 
> Derriere can release her darkness, which in on itself has the same, if not even greater scaling, in a 360 degree around her. She used it to free herself from an attack surrounding her from head to toe. It was even an attack to which she had a vulnerability to. Katakuris attempts of trapping her are therefore of no merit, since what he can use to trap her is still bound by his scaled AP which she exceeds. She does not need to replicate what he can do, he just needs a way around it. And her darkness being bursted from all parts of her body is enough for that to be warranted.
> 
> ...



I just mentioned it in my other post but does she actually scale to 96 GT?

I think that had something to do with Escanor taking his own physical attack reflected back at him with double the force due to Estarossa’s Full Counter.

The result of the actual calc she would scale to wasn’t that high I believe.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> That calc yields 23.5 GT.



Multipliers from first Estarossa and then Meliodas/Escanor. She did not scale to the latter beforehand but due to the Flasback where she fights evenly with Sar and Tar she got the scaling.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> I just mentioned it in my other post but does she actually scale to 96 GT?
> 
> I think that had something to do with Escanor taking his own physical attack reflected back at him with double the force due to Estarossa’s Full Counter.
> 
> The result of the actual calc she would scale to wasn’t that high I believe.



Yeha I just adressed that as well, I did not saw the question before I posted my reply to you


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Multipliers from *first Estarossa and then Meliodas/Escanor.* She did not scale to the latter beforehand but due to the Flasback where she fights evenly with Sar and Tar she got the scaling.



Huh?

Multiple multipliers? Isn’t that calc stacking?

If it’s just 23.5 GT multiplier by 2 that’d be one thing but the same attack doubled twice? When did that even happen?


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Multipliers from first Estarossa and then Meliodas/Escanor. She did not scale to the latter beforehand but due to the Flasback where she fights evenly with Sar and Tar she got the scaling.



So Derrieri is 23.5 and with Indura she is over 96 GT

Could you elaborate on scaling though? Because Drole's power level is on Derrieri's level and Indura was said to double power.

How did we get 4 times increase from Drole to Angel duo?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Huh?
> 
> Multiple multipliers? Isn’t that calc stacking?
> 
> If it’s just 23.5 GT multiplier by 2 that’d be one thing but the same attack doubled twice? When did that even happen?



It was 24GT from the Dolor Calc - then this got a multiplier from the fight between Estarossa and Escanor, bumping it up to 48GT (in reality it should be more than just 2 times even but eh) and then later got once again multiplied through the fight of Escanor and Meliodas (again should be more than 2 times but eh). There was no new calc present to stack, just two common ATK multipliers.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> So Derrieri is 23.5 and with Indura she is over 96 GT
> 
> Could you elaborate on scaling though? Because Drole's power level is on Derrieri's level and Indura was said to double power.
> 
> How did we get 4 times increase from Drole to Angel duo?



Derriere in base is 96GT and in Indura is unquantifiable stronger than 96GT (where do you get the 2 times power multiplier from for Indura).

Derriere only received the bump in her base scaling due to being able to fight with Sariel and Tarmiel in the war 3000 years ago - who both scale to 96GT. Neither Dolor nor Gloxinia have that scaling.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> It was 24GT from the Dolor Calc - then this got a multiplier from the fight between Estarossa and Escanor, bumping it up to 48GT (in reality it should be more than just 2 times even but eh) and then later got once again multiplied through the fight of Escanor and Meliodas (again should be more than 2 times but eh). There was no new calc present to stack, just two common ATK multipliers.



How do younget ×2 scaling from that?

Because of Full Counter? But how does it make the scaling go up twice


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> How do younget ×2 scaling from that?
> 
> Because of Full Counter? But how does it make the scaling go up twice



The x2 is the bare minimum and hence the one we use yes. However it happened twice, once in chapter 186 (where Estarossa and Escanor fought) and in the subsequent chapters everyone with a PL of roughly 60K (+some extras) got bumped due to fighting each other in varying degrees.

From chapter 232 and many unquantifiable upgrades/forms later we got another FC x2 bump when Meliodas and Escanor fought. This only scales to everyone who is able to fight Archangels and above.


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## Blαck (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The x2 is the bare minimum and hence the one we use yes. However it happened twice, once in chapter 186 (where Estarossa and Escanor fought) and in the subsequent chapters everyone with a PL of roughly 60K (+some extras) got bumped due to fighting each other in varying degrees.
> 
> From chapter 232 and many unquantifiable upgrades/forms later we got another FC x2 bump when Meliodas and Escanor fought. This only scales to everyone who is able to fight Archangels and above.



Wait why are characters being scaled from AM Mel and The One feats? Those two are still stronger than the majority of the cast now.


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Wait why are characters being scaled from AM Mel and The One feats? Those two are still stronger than the majority of the cast now.


It wasn't the one Escanor. The one who used cruel sun and tanked the FC which was contained in PC, was similar to the one who fought Estarossa. Their power levels as noted by hawk were less that the masters, and ludociel. Well below commandment Mael and presumably current King.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Wait why are characters being scaled from AM Mel and The One feats? Those two are still stronger than the majority of the cast now.



Its actually just 11.30 Escanor we scale off, not the One. AM Mel just happens to also get the scaling due to being > That version of Escanor.


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> It was 24GT from the Dolor Calc - then this got a multiplier from the fight between Estarossa and Escanor, bumping it up to 48GT (in reality it should be more than just 2 times even but eh) and then later got once again multiplied through the fight of Escanor and Meliodas (again should be more than 2 times but eh). There was no new calc present to stack, just two common ATK multipliers.



Base Estarossa is clearly portrayed >>>>> the other commandments (except for Ominous Nebula Zeldris). 

Are you trying to say past Base Derriere is stronger than him due to fighting Sariel? That doesn’t quite follow as Estarossa was beaten by both Sariel and Tarmiel working together, he could’ve still been stronger than them individually not needing to get another commandment.

I don’t see why Derriere should scale to anything from AM Meliodas vs Escanor when she’s weaker than the guy Escanor oneshotted with his near noon PL (Estarossa).


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Base Estarossa is clearly portrayed >>>>> the other commandments (except for Ominous Nebula Zeldris).
> 
> Are you trying to say past Base Derriere is stronger than him due to fighting Sariel? That doesn’t quite follow as Estarossa was beaten by both Sariel and Tarmiel working together, he could’ve still been stronger than them individually not needing to get another commandment.
> 
> I don’t see why Derriere should scale to anything from AM Meliodas vs Escanor when she’s weaker than the guy Escanor oneshotted with his near noon PL (Estarossa).


Deriere's combo star 100% scales as she beat the ever living shit out of half demon/half angel Mael.

Sariel and Tamriel were using their vessels for most of the fight and Estarossa needed commandments to be relevant. They would beat him without the commandment and beginning in their actual forms.

Monspiet beat him out with his magic and physically held him down in a choke (which hunterfest ban couldn't do), and easily took his hellfire. Deri and Mon were very strong.

Derriere's physical strength level is 48k which puts her just 5k away from Estarossa in that category, and her number is over Zeldris's. So she is 23-48 GT ish in base, and can get up to 96 with combo star.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Base Estarossa is clearly portrayed >>>>> the other commandments (except for Ominous Nebula Zeldris).
> 
> Are you trying to say past Base Derriere is stronger than him due to fighting Sariel? That doesn’t quite follow as Estarossa was beaten by both Sariel and Tarmiel working together, he could’ve still been stronger than them individually not needing to get another commandment.
> 
> I don’t see why Derriere should scale to anything from AM Meliodas vs Escanor when she’s weaker than the guy Escanor oneshotted with his near noon PL (Estarossa).



3000 years ago in the war Derriere looked way better in her fight against Sar and Tar than Base Estarossa looked in the current timeline. She actively damaged them to a rather significant degree - albeit she would have likely been mid-diffed at best from either of them in the end. Something which Base Estarossa was not able to do.

We have to take into account that Derriere from 3K years ago is a great deal stronger than current Derriere as well. I think it was even she herself who commented that she felt weak and dry after the seal - and the entire events from her reawaken from her dying was just some 1 month - whether or not she had her full strenght back or not is still not sure. Sure however is that 3k years back she definetly had it. 

Another thing: Derriere fought both Sar and Tar in their actual primary form. Their original bodies. Base Estarossa did not, he only fought them in their borrowed host bodies and still looked worse than she did. 

Her being scaled in her prime form at her prime time is valid.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Deriere's combo star 100% scales as she beat the ever living shit out of half demon/half angel Mael.
> 
> Sariel and Tamriel were using their vessels for most of the fight and Estarossa needed commandments to be relevant. They would beat him without the commandment and beginning in their actual forms.
> 
> ...



Pretty sure she would be 96GT even in base without combo star, as she overpowered an OG Sar Tornado 3k years ago.


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## Blαck (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> It wasn't the one Escanor. The one who used cruel sun and tanked the FC which was contained in PC, was similar to the one who fought Estarossa. Their power levels as noted by hawk were less that the masters, and ludociel. Well below commandment Mael and presumably current King.



Ah, yeah just checked. You're right.


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

We need to find out where the current party is and calc the storm it created. Or maybe if there are storm clouds in lioness or something.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Isnt there a Map or something with the Heavens theatre? Depending on that we could cover the minimal distance, seeing how the storm is apparently strong enough to uproot trees and cause waves and clouds XXX miles away from its origin point. 

Camelot is in the south so when they are somewhere near Liones or so (which I think) it would mean the OG demon caused a 300 mile storm just by existing


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Deriere's combo star 100% scales as she beat the ever living shit out of half demon/half angel Mael.
> 
> Sariel and Tamriel were using their vessels for most of the fight and Estarossa needed commandments to be relevant. They would beat him without the commandment and beginning in their actual forms.
> 
> ...



I can agree with the bold just fine. I guess RavenSupreme was overrating Derriere a bit to say her normal DC/durability without building up a combo is 96 GT 

Though building up a high enough combo to reach 96 GT without it getting interrupted before it can go that high wouldn't be easy in this fight.


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Isnt there a Map or something with the Heavens theatre? Depending on that we could cover the minimal distance, seeing how the storm is apparently strong enough to uproot trees and cause waves and clouds XXX miles away from its origin point.
> 
> Camelot is in the south so when they are somewhere near Liones or so (which I think) it would mean the OG demon caused a 300 mile storm just by existing


They marched with the interception squad, which went south from lioness, but then when Mael took Elizabeth he went up and laterally for some distance to take them there, and eventually broke the stage.


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## Mythoclast (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Base Estarossa is clearly portrayed >>>>> the other commandments (except for Ominous Nebula Zeldris).
> 
> Are you trying to say past Base Derriere is stronger than him due to fighting Sariel? That doesn’t quite follow as Estarossa was beaten by both Sariel and Tarmiel working together, he could’ve still been stronger than them individually not needing to get another commandment.
> 
> I don’t see why Derriere should scale to anything from AM Meliodas vs Escanor when she’s weaker than the guy Escanor oneshotted with his near noon PL (Estarossa).


Nah Estarossa isn't leagues above all of them.Monspiet was choking him unconscious and Derierre was bashing his face in.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> They marched with the interception squad, which went south from lioness, but then when Mael took Elizabeth he went up and laterally for some distance to take them there, and eventually broke the stage.



We could calc it up to Lioness just for the measurement. And then decide on possible subtractions of its area. If for example even using Lioness however would already be subpar we know we can drop the feat


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

Original Demon had to affect at least from Camelot to Lioness, but we'll see next chapter


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> We could calc it up to Lioness just for the measurement. And then decide on possible subtractions of its area. If for example even using Lioness however would already be subpar we know we can drop the feat


Well this is the measurement you got for camelot to lioness: 356,48 miles

So just need to find the dimensions/density of water of the storm cloud stretching that long, and find the latent condensation.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Well this is the measurement you got for camelot to lioness: 356,48 miles
> 
> So just need to find the dimensions/density of water of the storm cloud stretching that long, and find the latent condensation.



Yeha I know about the how. Just wondered about the "if" till now. We could quickly do it here in the thread for a rough number, using some easy cylinder volume or shit.


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> Nah Estarossa isn't leagues above all of them.Monspiet was choking him unconscious and Derierre was bashing his face in.



The latter was done by a long combo with an unknown high amount of attacks (which is important because her power grows over time the longer the combo) while Esta was held in place by both Sariel and Tarmiel.

And the former was due to a magic abilty of Monspiet's where he switched himself and Estarossa while Estarossa had him in a headlock. I don't know if Monspiet could've choked him in a straight up fight.

Meliodas took a beating from all of the commandments, and Estarossa casually blocked the revenge counter that came from the accumulated damage which no other commandment (except Zeldris with Ominous Nebula) would've been able to do.


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## Blαck (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> The latter was done by a long combo with an unknown high amount of attacks (which is important because her power grows over time the longer the combo) while Esta was held in place by both Sariel and Tarmiel.
> 
> And the former was due to a magic abilty of Monspiet's where he switched himself and Estarossa while Estarossa had him in a headlock. I don't know if Monspiet could've choked him in a straight up fight.
> 
> *Meliodas took a beating from all of the commandments, and Estarossa casually blocked the revenge counter that came from the accumulated damage which no other commandment (except Zeldris with Ominous Nebula) would've been able to do*.



Wasn't that due to Esta's commandment though?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> The latter was done by a long combo with an unknown high amount of attacks (which is important because her power grows over time the longer the combo) while Esta was held in place by both Sariel and Tarmiel.
> 
> And the former was due to a magic abilty of Monspiet's where he switched himself and Estarossa while Estarossa had him in a headlock. I don't know if Monspiet could've choked him in a straight up fight.
> 
> Meliodas took a beating from all of the commandments, and Estarossa casually blocked the revenge counter that came from the accumulated damage which no other commandment (except Zeldris with Ominous Nebula) would've been able to do.


Estarossa didnt block it, Mel got afflicted with Piety and Love


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Wasn't that due to Esta's commandment though?





OneSimpleAnime said:


> Estarossa didnt block it, Mel got afflicted with Piety and Love



Really? I don't remember it being stated that he used his commandment at that time 

Though we didn't even know what his commandment was at that point....


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Really? I don't remember it being stated that he used his commandment at that time
> 
> Though we didn't even know what his commandment was at that point....



His commandement works autonomously tho. This is why they cant prevent being affected from it themselves


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> His commandement works autonomously tho. This is why they cant prevent being affected from it themselves



Yeah, but Mel didn't lose his power at any time before that point (he wasn't inhibited when he fought the different commandments before using revenger counter). So did he only feel hatred in his heart in the exact moment he used revenge counter?

The way we saw it against Ban and the holy knights it remained in effect the entire time they had hatred towards Estarossa for killing Mel. Not just during a single moment they tried to attack him.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Yeah, but Mel didn't lose his power at any time before that point (he wasn't inhibited when he fought the different commandments before using revenger counter). So did he only feel hatred in his heart in the exact moment he used revenge counter?
> 
> The way we saw it against Ban and the holy knights it remained in effect the entire time they had hatred towards Estarossa for killing Mel. Not just during a single moment they tried to attack him.



The only explanation has to be that it needs to be the immediate vicinity. Gil and the Gang were about 5 meters or so away if I recall correctly, whereas I havent seen any actual distance between Mel and Estarossa throughout the fight with the 10Cs. Maybe re-reading that would help clear up something here tho.


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## Mythoclast (Dec 6, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> The latter was done by a long combo with an unknown high amount of attacks (which is important because her power grows over time the longer the combo) while Esta was held in place by both Sariel and Tarmiel.


Well that was Mael who had already absorbed 3 commandments.She wouldn'need nearly as much against 60k Estarossa.




> And the former was due to a magic abilty of Monspiet's where he switched himself and Estarossa while Estarossa had him in a headlock. I don't know if Monspiet could've choked him in a straight up fight.


I'm sure he could.He got behind Sariel with no problem. 


*Spoiler*: __ 











> Meliodas took a beating from all of the commandments, and Estarossa casually blocked the revenge counter that came from the accumulated damage which no other commandment (except Zeldris with Ominous Nebula) would've been able to do.


Pretty sure that was a result of his Commandment and not his strength.

*Spoiler*: __


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## xenos5 (Dec 6, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> Well that was Mael who had already absorbed 3 commandments.She wouldn'need nearly as much against 60k Estarossa.



Pre-resurrection Meliodas took a combo that was 50 or more iirc though. Her combos need to go on really long to reach higher levels. And her opponent isn't normally going to sit still and not try to interrupt it.



Mythoclast said:


> I'm sure he could.He got behind Sariel with no problem.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Eh... simply getting behind someone isn't the same as getting them in a chokehold before they can do something like raise their arm next to their head to prevent it.



Mythoclast said:


> Pretty sure that was a result of his Commandment and not his strength.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Isn't Piety the commandment where you get brainwashed if you turn your back to Zeldris? If Meliodas was affected by that, that definitely wasn't shown during the fight itself.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

Demon King said "Piety" (held by Zeldris) and "Charity" (held by Fraudrin), it shouldn't be because of Estarossa's "Love"


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Demon King said "Piety" (held by Zeldris) and "Charity" (held by Fraudrin), it shouldn't be because of Estarossa's "Love"


Fraudrin is selflessness which he got from Gowther, Charity is love.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 6, 2018)

You are right, my bad


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## Dellinger (Dec 6, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Derriere in base is 96GT and in Indura is unquantifiable stronger than 96GT (where do you get the 2 times power multiplier from for Indura).
> 
> Derriere only received the bump in her base scaling due to being able to fight with Sariel and Tarmiel in the war 3000 years ago - who both scale to 96GT. Neither Dolor nor Gloxinia have that scaling.


Those guys weren’t even using their graces


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 6, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Those guys weren’t even using their graces


We literally see Sariel using Tornado


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## Dellinger (Dec 6, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> We literally see Sariel using Tornado


Yeah and he tore through Derri like nothing with a pretty basic attack. These didn’t use their graces in a similar fashion to what they did in their fight against Maelstarossa. They were pretty casual


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 6, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Yeah and he tore through Derri like nothing with a pretty basic attack. These didn’t use their graces in a similar fashion to what they did in their fight against Maelstarossa. They were pretty casual


Yeah and Deri managed to would him through Tornado, her bone was strong enough to take the attack and hurt him


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## Dr. White (Dec 6, 2018)

I honestly wouldn’t scale derriere to 96Gt without combo star. 48 Gt should be fine


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 6, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I honestly wouldn’t scale derriere to 96Gt without combo star. 48 Gt should be fine


Yea she definitely needs combo star to hit that high


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Deri still takes though as she is faster, has hellfire/darkness to completely cuck his pauedo logia, amazing senses, regen of her own, and soulfuck.


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## xenos5 (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Deri still takes though as she is faster, has hellfire/darkness to completely cuck his psuedo logia, amazing senses, regen of her own, and soulfuck.



She's faster by less than 2x. Future Sight makes up for that. Especially since Luffy who had precog (observation haki) and flight (G4 Boundman) was unable to land a single attack on him even with his gatling (Kong Organ) after he calmed down and regained use of his future sight. Or the even better feat of dodging a much higher speed gatling where attacks came from multiple weird angles with a Luffy who had upgraded his Observation Haki to near Future Sight levels (G4 Snakeman's Black Mamba). Unlike how a normal logia lets stuff go through them Kata opens holes in himself so he isn't touched at all.

She can't regen any of her hearts (and likely her brain as well as we haven't seen a demon regenerate from a destroyed head iirc).

And a point that I think I didn't bring up last time we debated this match is that there's a high chance of her getting trapped due to the nature of Katakuri's attacks (sticky/adhesive mochi that was able to prevent Luffy from going into G4) and the surprising ways he can set a trap (do stuff like make a hole in his chest or arm when she goes for a punch and close it on her arm so its stuck, or envelop her arm in mochi after clashing fists).


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> She's faster by less than 2x. Future Sight makes up for that. Especially since Luffy who had precog (observation haki) and flight (G4 Boundman) was unable to land a single attack on him even with his gatling (Kong Organ) after he calmed down and regained use of his future sight. Unlike how a normal logia lets stuff go through them Kata opens holes in himself so he isn't touched at all.
> 
> She can't regen any of her hearts (and likely her brain as well as we haven't seen a demon regenerate from a destroyed head iirc).
> 
> And a point that I think I didn't bring up last time we debated this match is that there's a high chance of her getting trapped due to the nature of Katakuri's attacks (sticky/adhesive mochi that was able to prevent Luffy from going into G4) and the surprising ways he can set a trap (do stuff like make a hole in his chest or arm when she goes for a punch and close it on her arm so its stuck, or envelop her arm in mochi after clashing fists).


I literally addressed all of this earlier in the thread.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

You don’t read my actual post dude


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## xenos5 (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I literally addressed all of this earlier in the thread.





Dr. White said:


> You don’t read my actual post dude



I don't think you addressed the ways Katakuri can trap Derriere in unexpected ways when we last debated. I hadn't really thought about it back then despite how useful it is. 







It would be much easier to land a Mochi Thrust to Derriere's body destroying a bunch of her hearts at once while she's immobilized like that.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> I don't think you addressed the ways Katakuri can trap Derriere in unexpected ways when we last debated. I hadn't really thought about it back then despite how useful it is.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I did.

We went over how despite Derierie being trapped in a ball of light which demons are inherently weak to, she can just burst out with darkness

She can choose to do the same with Hellfire which is >>>>>> regular fire. Kata is candy, and we've already seen that has an inherent weakness to fire.

He also has no counter to soulfuck.

GG.


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## Blαck (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I did.
> 
> We went over how despite Derierie being trapped in a ball of light which demons are inherently weak to, she can just burst out with darkness
> 
> ...



Tbf that Lightball was done by some B-list goddess so it's hardly a feat, granted Derri possibly could break free with some shenanigans
of her own. Also Kata uses heat in a move of his own so I doubt mochi is inherently weak to it as well as countering red hawk earlier on against Luffy.

As for Soulfuck? Yeah, Kata is screwed there.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Tbf that Lightball was done by some B-list goddess so it's hardly a feat, granted Derri possibly could break free with some shenanigans
> of her own. Also Kata uses heat in a move of his own so I doubt mochi is inherently weak to it as well as countering red hawk earlier on against Luffy.
> 
> As for Soulfuck? Yeah, Kata is screwed there.


Nerobasta was a lieutenant for goddesses and has an inherent advantage vs demons. Even without light she casually soloed City+ demons with physical strikes in a host body.

She should be about small island.

The point was that Derierie has multiple options for dealing with being "stuck" given her casual omnidirectional attacks with darkness and hellfire.

Both darkness and hellfire also cuck Kata's ability to evade damage.

Once he gets locked it's over.


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## xenos5 (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> I did.
> 
> We went over how despite Derierie being trapped in a ball of light which demons are inherently weak to, she can just burst out with darkness



And since Katakuri's stronger why couldn't he just use Mochi thrust to pierce her while she's charging that darkness burst up or in the middle of it? 

The situation where her arm gets trapped in a hole Katakuri forms in his body, she'd especially have no time to charge up that burst before she's already pierced. 

The trap still serves its purpose if she has to use an attack that she has to stay still for a bit to use to get out of it. 



Dr. White said:


> She can choose to do the same with Hellfire which is >>>>>> regular fire. Kata is candy, and we've already seen that has an inherent weakness to fire.



Nah. Perospero's candy maiden was melted by Red Hawk's fire but Katakuri's normal armament mochi fist took it just fine. He doesn't have the same weakness Perospero does. 



Dr. White said:


> He also has no counter to soulfuck.



Derriere has to touch him to activate it, and it's not something she's likely to attempt in the middle of an intense battle anyway.


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## Blαck (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> *Nerobasta was a lieutenant* for goddesses and has an inherent advantage vs demons. Even without light she casually soloed City+ demons with physical strikes in a host body.
> 
> She should be about small island.
> 
> ...



That meant next to nothing against her/His opponent though, and Island based on what? One shotting some nameless red and white demons with their literal kryptonite? iirc The lowest island level feat comes from a 10c level character which clearly Nero can't handle.

Also, if Kata can arguably hold g4 luffy than Derri definitely ain't just getting out of it.(note; Don't actually remember if Kata tried to trap G4 Luffy just throwing it out there, if he didn't than ignore this)


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Blαck said:


> That meant next to nothing against her/His opponent though, and Island based on what? One shotting some nameless red and white demons with their literal kryptonite? iirc The lowest island level feat comes from a 10c level character which clearly Nero can't handle.
> 
> Also, if Kata can arguably hold g4 luffy than Derri definitely ain't just getting out of it.(note; Don't actually remember if Kata tried to trap G4 Luffy just throwing it out there, if he didn't than ignore this)


No.

She casually dealt with numerous city+ entities around 400 MT.

Small island comes from monspiet who had a magic level of 0 and only had the magic (to complete the feat that was calced at small island) from fodder human souls he fed on.

Nerobast is obviously on a level > City level foes, but < commandments at reasonable strength (which is where island level comes from).

Given that Deriere needed to power up from base to escape her ark that is a conservative scaling for her given Deriere herself scales to the 48 GT tier.


----------



## Blαck (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No.
> 
> She casually dealt with numerous city+ entities around 400 MT.
> 
> ...



Conservative/Fair scaling would be 400MT, at most if we're being generous she'd scale to monspiet's feat which was what?


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Conservative/Fair scaling would be 400MT, at most if we're being generous she'd scale to monspiet's feat which was what?


No? How would it be conservative to scale her to a bunch of fodder which she wrecked in multiples?

When she actually stressed a ten commandment in her ark despite being in a human host?

Nah bruh.

Monspiet calc after he came out of the seal which stole all of his magic power was calced at 1.79 Gt.


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## Blαck (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> No? How would it be conservative to scale her to a bunch of fodder which she wrecked in multiples?
> 
> When she actually stressed a ten commandment in her ark despite being in a human host?
> 
> ...



Stressed? Hitting someone with their weakness isn't a feat, that's like me saying Ace is country level or whatever the admirals scale to these days since he clashed with Aokiji.


 nor did Derri "power up" to wreck her ,that shit was so casual it was ridiculous.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Stressed? Hitting someone with their weakness isn't a feat nor did Derri "power up" to wreck her ,that shit was so casual it was ridiculous.


Bullshit. You clearly see Deriere's top layer of skin being crusted, and she has to power up from base with her darkness.

That is not casual.


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## Blαck (Dec 7, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Bullshit. You clearly see Deriere's top layer of skin being crusted, and she has to power up from base with her darkness.
> 
> That is not casual.



Again, light counteracts dark and vice versa, seeing as Derri literally came out of it entirely unscathed nor exhausted in any form it would be treated as casual.


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## Dr. White (Dec 7, 2018)

Blαck said:


> Again, light counteracts dark and vice versa, seeing as Derri literally came out of it entirely unscathed nor exhausted in any form it would be treated as casual.


No. It doesn't matter if it's a weakness if the potency means jackshit. A regular angel wouldn't do shit to Deriere.

Nerobasta, while weakened in a human host, was able to injure Deriere and force her to power up. It cannot be casual if she was injured and forced to power up that makes no sense.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 7, 2018)

Anyway....

Katakuri should take it.

His stats outmatch Derrieri's base (except arguably in speed, but his CoO is so good she will get dominated there) and he would stop her from going Indura with his mochi.

And I'd argue he can take her even in Indura, although with a lot of diff


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 7, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Anyway....
> 
> Katakuri should take it.
> 
> ...



Indura Derriere NoSells 96GT+ attacks head on without a single scratch and downs them with mere punches.

Arguing Katakuri would take her in Indura is outside the realm of any possibility


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 7, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Indura Derriere NoSells 96GT+ attacks head on without a single scratch and downs them with mere punches.
> 
> Arguing Katakuri would take her in Indura is outside the realm of any possibility



She would be nigh unable to tag him and has enough stamina to beat her up constantly.
Didn't Meliodas imply their heart would eventually give up and they would die?

But as I said, it wouldn't come to that


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 7, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> She would be nigh unable to tag him and has enough stamina to beat her up constantly.
> Didn't Meliodas imply their heart would eventually give up and they would die?
> 
> But as I said, it wouldn't come to that



One single punch of Indura Derriere is more than anything Katakuri has ever had to deal with. In comparison, every single ones of Katakuris attacks will not even be noticed by her. This is Indura. The same Indura who facetanks each and every of Ludoshiels 96GT+attacks and bulldozered through it without even a scratch.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 7, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> One single punch of Indura Derriere is more than anything Katakuri has ever had to deal with. In comparison, every single ones of Katakuris attacks will not even be noticed by her. This is Indura. The same Indura who facetanks each and every of Ludoshiels 96GT+attacks and bulldozered through it without even a scratch.



Just because it is 15% superior to any punch Katakuri got hit with doesn't mean he gets fucked by a single punch.

''Not even noticed''

Oh bullshit, a head-on attack from Ludoshel (who is 15% superior to Katakuri at most) managed to stagger her.
He won't do much damage, but with constant hits he can slow her down significantly.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 7, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Just because it is 15% superior to any punch Katakuri got hit with doesn't mean he gets fucked by a single punch.
> 
> ''Not even noticed''
> 
> ...



Thats not correct. Staggering would have implied he somehow was denying or reverting her momentum. But that was not the case. She was standing still and took the attack head on. Without a blocking pose. Without any form of defense. She literally facetanked it.

And she did it again some pages later. There was no "staggering". In fact, the second time she decided to punch through Ludoshiels attack. 

Ludoshiel has not landed a single clean hit. Not a scratch. Not a bruise. Nothing. And this was Ludo in his true form, not his host body, meaning it is way over 200K.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 7, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Thats not correct. Staggering would have implied he somehow was denying or reverting her momentum. But that was not the case. She was standing still and took the attack head on. Without a blocking pose. Without any form of defense. She literally facetanked it.
> 
> And she did it again some pages later. There was no "staggering". In fact, the second time she decided to punch through Ludoshiels attack.



Not true, both times she was taken back a bit by the attack itself



RavenSupreme said:


> Ludoshiel has not landed a single clean hit. Not a scratch. Not a bruise. Nothing. And this was Ludo in his true form, not his host body, meaning it is way over 200K.



Isn't that the form being scaled to 96 GT?

And again, as I said, it won't come to Indura


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 7, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Not true, both times she was taken back a bit by the attack itself
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Being hit by an attack and literal facetanking it is not being "staggered". Luffy also didnt "stagger" Kaidou when he attacked him. 

Everyone Escanor 11.30 and similar scales to at least 96GT with some exceptions who are lower in PL but still managed to fight on that level. 

11.30 Escanor is 114K, or just 50% of what host-body Ludoshiel has (201K) - and the true form is an additional boost (albeit unquantifiable).

Derriere fought true body Ludo.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 7, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Being hit by an attack and literal facetanking it is not being "staggered". Luffy also didnt "stagger" Kaidou when he attacked him.



Then slightly pushed back, however you want to call it.
The point is that it's not that she ''doesn't even feel them''




RavenSupreme said:


> Everyone Escanor 11.30 and similar scales to at least 96GT with some exceptions who are lower in PL but still managed to fight on that level.



From what I got, logic is that because that Escanor fought Meliodas (who has FC), he is two times stronger than when he fought Estarossa (who has FC) where he is two times stronger than Drole.
What I don't get is how did you arrive to conclusion that just because he fought them, he has to be over two times stronger.


Also, this is all irrelevant, because Derrieri won't be able to go in Indura


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 7, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Then slightly pushed back, however you want to call it.
> The point is that it's not that she ''doesn't even feel them''
> 
> 
> ...


Thats hairsplitting now. She walks through it without being fazed or anything. In the second time she even punched right through the attack despite taking it to the face.


I dont understand your second part. You acknowledge that Escanor and Estarossa (who used FC) get the x2 scaling, which pushes them to 48GT.

But when 48GT is their new scaling, acknowledging that Escanor and Meliodas (who used FC) getting the x2 scaling from 48 to 96 is just the logical conclusion.

-> Escanor in the fight scales to 48GT -> Escanor launches a Cruel Sun -> Meliodas FC it with x2 multiplier -> FC explodes, neither Mel nor Escanor are damaged in any way shape or form -> both get 96GT scaling

-> Mel and Escanor then manage to damage each other with their attacks -> their attacks must be > the scaled 96GT


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 9, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Thats hairsplitting now. She walks through it without being fazed or anything. In the second time she even punched right through the attack despite taking it to the face.



She isn't hurt, that is true, but they still carry the energy to push her a bit.
Coupled with Katakuri's ability to evade hits and to attack from all sides, he should be capable of surviving long enough till her heart gives out.



RavenSupreme said:


> I dont understand your second part. You acknowledge that Escanor and Estarossa (who used FC) get the x2 scaling, which pushes them to 48GT.
> 
> But when 48GT is their new scaling, acknowledging that Escanor and Meliodas (who used FC) getting the x2 scaling from 48 to 96 is just the logical conclusion.



I get why it scales to their durability, but not why it scaled to their AP



RavenSupreme said:


> -> Escanor in the fight scales to 48GT -> Escanor launches a Cruel Sun -> Meliodas FC it with x2 multiplier -> FC explodes, neither Mel nor Escanor are damaged in any way shape or form -> both get 96GT scaling
> 
> -> Mel and Escanor then manage to damage each other with their attacks -> their attacks must be > the scaled 96GT



But Cruel Sun didn't explode directly in their face, it did so from few meters away, where it would lose a lot of it's AP.

But anyway, let's just continue scaling in pm, I concede that Indura Derrieri beats Katakuri due to too big of a power difference


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 9, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> She would be nigh unable to tag him



isn't NNT 3~4 digit?

 did OP get any speed upgrade far pass 5 digit that Katakuri could scale to?


----------



## Keishin (Dec 9, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> isn't NNT 3~4 digit?
> 
> did OP get any speed upgrade far pass 5 digit that Katakuri could scale to?


think he means precog .


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 9, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> isn't NNT 3~4 digit?
> 
> did OP get any speed upgrade far pass 5 digit that Katakuri could scale to?



Yeah, but so is base Luffy.

Katakuri's CoO allows him to dominate people who are much, much faster than him (even when they have precog of their own) in speed and even Boundman (which could kind of blitz Katakuri) couldn't touch him with his fastest attack when he uses CoO (which he does all the time)


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 9, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> She isn't hurt, that is true, but they still carry the energy to push her a bit.
> Coupled with Katakuri's ability to evade hits and to attack from all sides, he should be capable of surviving long enough till her heart gives out.
> 
> 
> ...


It doean’t matter. The distance was absolutely negligible and you also forget it was a contained blast meaning none of the energy escaped into the environment. 

It’s why letting off a grenade in a closed room is much more deadly than one with windows or openings.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 9, 2018)

Inverse square law makes even small distances matter.

I didn't forget it, but it doesn't matter to my point because they would still avoid most of it.


----------



## Dr. White (Dec 9, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Inverse square law makes even small distances matter.
> 
> I didn't forget it, but it doesn't matter to my point because they would still avoid most of it.


Except it doesn’t when the blast is contained and therefore the energy must be absorbed by things inside of perfect cube, and would rebound inside until so.

And if you really wanna get hypercritical about feats, 75% of scaling and feats wouldn’t be applicable.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 9, 2018)

Except that surface of Perfect Cube>>>>surface of Meliodas and Escanor
The energy they get hit by is not nearly as much as they would at point blank

This isn't hypercritical at all, it is basic application.


----------



## xenos5 (Dec 9, 2018)

@Dr. White 

I looked back to see the process that Derriere had to go through to transform into her Indura form. And now i'm especially doubtful she could perform it uninterrupted in this battle. Ludociel was arrogant enough to stand still and let it happen but Katakuri has already shown he's willing to interrupt the transformation of his opponent (prevented Luffy from going G4 once) so I doubt he'd stand idly by. 

There are multiple points I believe the process could be interrupted. 

1. At the point where Derriere stands still and stabs herself to grab six of her own hearts Katakuri could trap her with awakening or stab her with is trident in addition to her self stab potentially destroying the hearts she wants to sacrifice before she can use them for the contract. 

2. destroy the hearts when she pulls them out before she has the chance to do it herself to fulfill the contract. 

3. stab her, or hit her with any kind of attack to stop her talking after she's already destroyed her own hearts but before she's finished speaking the "incantation".


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 9, 2018)

Or she could just, fly high high enough that he cant reach her


----------



## xenos5 (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or she could just, fly high high enough that he cant reach her



Why would he let her get that far away when he can knock her back down to the ground with Power Mochi (that can come from anywhere around her on the battlefield due it being made from awakening), stretch his limbs ridiculously long distances, or shoot projectiles that could knock her out of the sky (Grilled Mochi)? With Future Sight he would see her trying to get away before she even starts doing it, making it much easier to cut off her escape route. 

Heck if she could do that (fly away and activate the indura transformation) why didn't she against Ludociel instead of doing it on the ground right in front of him? If it's something like her pride prevented her from even briefly leaving the battlefield I don't see why that wouldn't also apply here, though it could also be something like the process needed complete focus so it couldn't be done in the middle of flying


----------



## Kingdom Come (Dec 10, 2018)

Katakuri wins this shit

Lock the thread already


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 10, 2018)

xenos5 said:


> Why would he let her get that far away when he can knock her back down to the ground with Power Mochi (that can come from anywhere around her on the battlefield due it being made from awakening), stretch his limbs ridiculously long distances, or shoot projectiles that could knock her out of the sky (Grilled Mochi)? With Future Sight he would see her trying to get away before she even starts doing it, making it much easier to cut off her escape route.
> 
> Heck if she could do that (fly away and activate the indura transformation) why didn't she against Ludociel instead of doing it on the ground right in front of him? If it's something like her pride prevented her from even briefly leaving the battlefield I don't see why that wouldn't also apply here, though it could also be something like the process needed complete focus so it couldn't be done in the middle of flying


Shes a sensor, his power mochi only has a range of maybe a couple dozen meters and wont be catching her by surprise. 

Why didnt she do it against Ludociel? Because maybe, just maybe, he can fly too


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or she could just, fly high high enough that he cant reach her



Awakening can reach multiple kms into the air so it ain't working. 

The extent the NNTtards go to defend their favorite verse is hilarious. In no way at all can Deri compete with Katakuri. Her one dimensional fighting is a cherry pie for guys like Katakuri. Luffy who was a better close combat fighter that had multiple ways of dealing attacks had to develop future sight and a new G4 mode. Derri is gonna do what ? Throw punches that Katakuri can morph around ?

And for the last time NNT isn't any faster here.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Or she could just, fly high high enough that he cant reach her



That's not in her character and you know it.

Also, Katakuri would see she what she would try to do before she does, so he can intercept her there.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Awakening can reach multiple kms into the air so it ain't working.
> 
> The extent the NNTtards go to defend their favorite verse is hilarious. In no way at all can Deri compete with Katakuri. Her one dimensional fighting is a cherry pie for guys like Katakuri. Luffy who was a better close combat fighter that had multiple ways of dealing attacks had to develop future sight and a new G4 mode. Derri is gonna do what ? Throw punches that Katakuri can morph around ?
> 
> And for the last time NNT isn't any faster here.



Thats some quality argument here. "Derriere cant win because I say so and if the other side disagrees they are tards".


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 10, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Awakening can reach multiple kms into the air so it ain't working.
> 
> The extent the NNTtards go to defend their favorite verse is hilarious. In no way at all can Deri compete with Katakuri. Her one dimensional fighting is a cherry pie for guys like Katakuri. Luffy who was a better close combat fighter that had multiple ways of dealing attacks had to develop future sight and a new G4 mode. Derri is gonna do what ? Throw punches that Katakuri can morph around ?
> 
> And for the last time NNT isn't any faster here.


Since when tf can awakening reach multiple kilometers in the air? Not like it really matters since a weaker 10c could jump 300-ish miles in a second or two, Katakuri doesnt have the range or speed to effectively stop her.


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Since when tf can awakening reach multiple kilometers in the air?



Since Doflamingo made his go half the distance to Luffy who was around the height of large mountain.



OneSimpleAnime said:


> Not like it really matters since a weaker 10c could jump
> 300-ish miles in a second or two, Katakuri doesnt have the range or speed to effectively stop her.



Yes and Katakuri is just as fast so he can intercept her before she does so.

If anyone has speed advantage here, it's Katakuri.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Since Doflamingo made his go half the distance to Luffy who was around the height of large mountain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Katakuri is slower than Derriere. And as for his precog, he would need to also be able to actively dodge what is coming at him despite seeing it briefly. Its the typical gun problematic. Even if you know a gun is shot at you half a second before the trigger is pulled you would still get hit by the bullet when your body is not fast enough to dodge. 

In addition Derriere has battle senses so massive that she actively can pinpoint people from hundreds of miles away, meaning her realizing where Katakuri is dodgin too is not a hard feat for her, making her able to continue her attack not only where he is at her OG attack but where she needs to attack consecutively.

Katakuri having a speed advantage is not really an applicable argument


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Since when tf can awakening reach multiple kilometers in the air? Not like it really matters since a weaker 10c could jump 300-ish miles in a second or two, Katakuri doesnt have the range or speed to effectively stop her.



since when can derieri fly multiple kilometers in the air instantly?





RavenSupreme said:


> Katakuri is slower than Derriere



Er no..

NNT is slower than one piece as far as I recall.

 when did they surpass One Piece?


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> since when can derieri fly multiple kilometers in the air instantly?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Some 2 years ago already. Its Mach 3600 since 2016 or so already. Ever since the OG translation for Merlins/Galans feat came out which allowed us to use the High end for the Top and God tiers.


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Some 2 years ago already. Its Mach 3600 since 2016 or so already. Ever since the OG translation for Merlins/Galans feat came out which allowed us to use the High end for the Top and God tiers.



It definitely isn't from 2 years ago. I remember that shit got push I just don't remember the specifics.

 Also I remember that shit having some wrong scaling where they use country range scaling or someshit when the map literally have a ruler of some kind which was ignored and that was just a year or so ago. Did someone correct it?


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Katakuri is slower than Derriere



Based on what?



RavenSupreme said:


> And as for his precog, he would need to also be able to actively dodge what is coming at him despite seeing it briefly. Its the typical gun problematic. Even if you know a gun is shot at you half a second before the trigger is pulled you would still get hit by the bullet when your body is not fast enough to dodge.



You are applying basic precog on Katakuri, that's not how it works.
We have seen it in action, he has dodged Luffy's fastest Bounceman attack with ease despite Bounceman blitzing him when he couldn't ease CoO



RavenSupreme said:


> In addition Derriere has battle senses so massive that she actively can pinpoint people from hundreds of miles away, meaning her realizing where Katakuri is dodgin too is not a hard feat for her, making her able to continue her attack not only where he is at her OG attack but where she needs to attack consecutively.



Nope, it doesn't work that way. Luffy, who himself has very good CoO (precog) still didn't even know how his hits don't land on Katakuri, so Derrieri having special senses doesn't mean shit here.



RavenSupreme said:


> Katakuri having a speed advantage is not really an applicable argument



That wasn't even my argument.
I just said that Derrieri isn't the one with advantage here if there is speed advantage in the first place. (from what I know)


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> It definitely isn't from 2 years ago. I remember that shit got push I just don't remember the specifics.
> 
> Also I remember that shit having some wrong scaling where they use country range when the map literally have a ruler of some kind which was ignored and that was just a year or so ago. Did someone correct it?



I feel it was 2 years. Something early 2017 at the latest or so, so some time already.

I also dont recall any scaling problems which didnt got resolved, its the first time ever since the number is used that I hear about this ruler-thing ever, so I take it this got a pass. The big problem of the calc for a long time was that it used the specific "spell" speed, meaning we had to assume that every spell she does has a different radius and we were limited on the highest showing for each spell and not the highest showing she overall showed her magic to work in. Which got changed when the OG translation changed "spell radius" to "sphere of magical influence" as a whole. Its ever since commonly used at 3.6K mach


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Based on what?
> 
> You are applying basic precog on Katakuri, that's not how it works.
> We have seen it in action, he has dodged Luffy's fastest Bounceman attack with ease despite Bounceman blitzing him when he couldn't ease CoO
> ...



Basic scaling. He gets scaled to Mach 1.9K whereas she gets scaled to Mach 3.6K.

I dont ever recall Luffy having actively used active precog in any fight previously to the one with Katakrui. Outside of his pre-skip thing with Mihawk I never once saw it part of a battle. I remember it was just in this very fight that he needed to catch up to Precog. Can you link the instances where he showed precog in his fights previous to Katakuri?

Well I just got by your own words which have been: "If anyone has speed advantage here, it's Katakuri." - So I wanted to give my opinion on why that is not correct.


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> I also dont recall any scaling problems which didnt got resolved, its the first time ever since the number is used that I hear about this ruler-thing ever, so I take it this got a pass



I pointed it out where there was a scaling literally on the map that was ignored when they calculated the distance or someshit I just don't remember if they resolved that shit, It's all good if they resolve it.

 anyway as for the ruler like just pull the raws for the NNT map and you would see the official scaling for the map and there's literally a ruler right there detailing the distances for it..


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> I pointed it out where there was a scaling literally on the map that was ignored when they calculated the distance or someshit.
> 
> like just pull the raws for the NNT map and you would see the official scaling for the map and there's literally a ruler right there.



The Map ruler only was meant for the zoomed in part and not applicable for the entire map, since the distance between Liones and Camelot spanned the area outside of the zoomed in part. 

And since we were given a direct distance by the author of two places in the zoomed in part we used the canon number and then scaled the full map based on that. 

And the overall size in the end lined also up with real life britain which is confirmed by the author to be just that. So there was not really any problem with the scaling


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The Map ruler only was meant for the zoomed in part and not applicable for the entire map




 the ruler is there as a guide there's literally a box portraying the borders of the ruler... seriously once you ignore the scaling the whole shit is thrown out the window there's a reason we rely on solid numbers for calcs.


RavenSupreme said:


> And since we were given a direct distance by the author of two places in the zoomed in part we used the canon number and then scaled the full map based on that.



except we aren't given an actual distance.

 if there was an actual distance between the two points then there was no need to scale it in the first place the calc is literally base on that scaling.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> the ruler is there as a guide there's literally a box portraying the borders of the ruler... seriously once you ignore the scaling the whole shit is thrown out the window there's a reason we rely on solid numbers for calcs.
> 
> 
> except we aren't given an actual distance.
> ...



Yeha I agree. Using actual given hard distances is important and benefical to calcs and superceed other things.

Which is why I said we are given an actual distance between two places in the zoomed in part which was the reason why scaling the rest was so easy. There is no ignoring taking place and I dont know why you are denying there being a distance given honestly.


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Which is why I said we are given an actual distance between two places in the zoomed in part which was the reason why scaling the rest was so easy. There is no ignoring taking place and I dont know why you are denying there being a distance given honestly.




 what? You have post literally saying here the map ruler is only used for the zoomed in part and it was not applicable to the entire map and now you have a post saying you didn't ignore the same ruler.



RavenSupreme said:


> The Map ruler only was meant for the zoomed in part and not applicable for the entire map, since the distance between Liones and Camelot spanned the area outside of the zoomed in part.
> 
> And since we were given a direct distance by the author of two places in the zoomed in part we used the canon number and then scaled the full map based on that.




Did I miss something in here?


----------



## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Basic scaling. He gets scaled to Mach 1.9K whereas she gets scaled to Mach 3.6K.



How does she get high end? Merlin wasn't shown using Sacred Treasure when she wanted to teleport Galan



RavenSupreme said:


> I dont ever recall Luffy having actively used active precog in any fight previously to the one with Katakrui. Outside of his pre-skip thing with Mihawk I never once saw it part of a battle. I remember it was just in this very fight that he needed to catch up to Precog. Can you link the instances where he showed precog in his fights previous to Katakuri?



Yeah, because this is One Piece where Oda doesn't show shit. Only reason we can tell who is using CoA post timeskip is because Oda started making armament itself black (visible)

There are few mentions of it post timeskip, like Luffy noting people are hiding somewhere without seeing them.
But here is one of examples in a fight.




RavenSupreme said:


> Well I just got by your own words which have been: "If anyone has speed advantage here, it's Katakuri." - So I wanted to give my opinion on why that is not correct.



You can see me above that implying they are equal, all kay


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> what?



The distance of Liones and Edinburgh was given with 186 miles, which was the mid end of the feat for a long time and resulted in 1.8K. The high end simply scaled Liones to Camelot based on that number and we got 300 miles.


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The distance of Liones and Edinburgh was given with 186 miles



post where you got those number.

 Because that shit isn't from the author.

That shit was a calc based on Galan's jump.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> post where you got that number.



In the sidestory of the Edinburgh chapters. It was Story 1 I think


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> In the sidestory of the Edinburgh chapters. It was Story 1 I think



 as I said put some context here where we could check that shit.

post those panel or quotes.


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2018)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> Since when tf can awakening reach multiple kilometers in the air? Not like it really matters since a weaker 10c could jump 300-ish miles in a second or two, Katakuri doesnt have the range or speed to effectively stop her.



Are you guys oblivious to the fact that Kizaru, who is confirmed light speed by word of god and what we have seen in the manga, isn't thousands of times faster than the OP top tiers ? 

Also Doflamingo turned the whole city of dressrosa into strings and his strings reached over the mountain in his final clash with Luffy.


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Are you guys oblivious to the fact that Kizaru, who is confirmed light speed by word of god and what we have seen in the manga, isn't thousands of times faster than the OP top tiers ?
> 
> Also Doflamingo turned the whole city of dressrosa into strings and his strings reached over the mountain in his final clash with Luffy.



please shut up.


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> as I said put some context here where we could check that shit.
> 
> post those panel or quotes.


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Katakuri is slower than Derriere. And as for his precog, he would need to also be able to actively dodge what is coming at him despite seeing it briefly. Its the typical gun problematic. Even if you know a gun is shot at you half a second before the trigger is pulled you would still get hit by the bullet when your body is not fast enough to dodge.
> 
> In addition Derriere has battle senses so massive that she actively can pinpoint people from hundreds of miles away, meaning her realizing where Katakuri is dodgin too is not a hard feat for her, making her able to continue her attack not only where he is at her OG attack but where she needs to attack consecutively.
> 
> Katakuri having a speed advantage is not really an applicable argument



Katakuri isn't slower. He is faster and by a decent margin. Not my fault this forum still tries to downplay OP whenever they get the chance.

Also don;t compare Katakuri's pre cog with the average pre cog in OP. Again. In order for Luffy to compete, he had to develop the same future sight as him and a new mode based on speed.

Also this is ridiculous. Because she can sense magic from far away, that means she can tell where Katakuri is going to move ? This is the first fucking time I read this crap.


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> please shut up.


Word of God and feats > your dumb opinion. 

Go make a post about how the Yonko don't scale to the Admirals


----------



## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

going to point out that number would only result to mach 800+

if converted to speed under 1 second how is this mach 3000+


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> Katakuri isn't slower. He is faster and by a decent margin. Not my fault this forum still tries to downplay OP whenever they get the chance.
> 
> Also don;t compare Katakuri's pre cog with the average pre cog in OP. Again. In order for Luffy to compete, he had to develop the same future sight as him and a new mode based on speed.
> 
> Also this is ridiculous. Because she can sense magic from far away, that means she can tell where Katakuri is going to move ? This is the first fucking time I read this crap.



The forums is at Mach 1.9K for OP. I dont really get in any arguments over any other number unless its acceppted.

As for the Magic sensing, its not where he will be in the future but she can track him while he is dodging - he is not vanishing into thin air or something he is moving from one place to the other. And she can, in addition of being able to move faster than he can, sense where he is moving while he is doing it (e.g. if he wants to launch some moji shit to block her sight / trap her whatever) and still pinpoint accurately attack at his destination


----------



## Dellinger (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> The forums is at Mach 1.9K for OP. I dont really get in any arguments over any other number unless its acceppted.
> 
> As for the Magic sensing, its not where he will be in the future but she can track him while he is dodging - he is not vanishing into thin air or something he is moving from one place to the other. And she can, in addition of being able to move faster than he can, sense where he is moving while he is doing it (e.g. if he wants to launch some moji shit to block her sight / trap her whatever) and still pinpoint accurately attack at his destination



So you are giving her something akin to CoO ? Since when ? no matter what you are giving to her, Katakuri has a far bigger advantage given what he can see. He is one step ahead. 

Also this is getting dumb. Kizaru is light speed, the top tiers aren't a thousand times slower than him, Rayleigh fought him, intercepted him, Marco did the same, he is weaker than guys like Kaido and Akainu.

This is not hard. 

People throw light speed BC the moment they see it, and scale that crap to whomever they see but they can't do the same with OP because... Why does this happen ?


----------



## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> going to point out that number would only result to mach 800+
> 
> if converted to speed under 1 second how is this mach 3000+



The 186 miles resulted in mach 1.8K like I said previously, due to the timeframe being 0.47 seconds or something. 

The high end of 3.6k  resulted from using that confirmed distance as a reference on map scaling and finding the distance between Liones and Camelot.

Confirmed distance Liones - Edinburgh ->186 miles

With distance from Liones - Edinburgh = 186 miles -> Scaling Liones - Camelot = 300 miles.

Timeframe remained the same, mach 3.6K result.

How can you participate in NNT threads for years without having stumbled across the calc?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

Dellinger said:


> So you are giving her something akin to CoO ? Since when ? no matter what you are giving to her, Katakuri has a far bigger advantage given what he can see. He is one step ahead.
> 
> Also this is getting dumb. Kizaru is light speed, the top tiers aren't a thousand times slower than him, Rayleigh fought him, intercepted him, Marco did the same, he is weaker than guys like Kaido and Akainu.
> 
> ...



How am I giving her something akin of CoO? She can sense people from hundred miles away, how is me saying she can sense someone behind a wall of mochi givng her CoO?

Like...what?


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> he 186 miles resulted in mach 1.8K like I said previously, due to the timeframe being 0.47 seconds or something.



where did the time frame come from why is it .47 second?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> where did the time frame come from why is it .47 second?



From the time it took Meliodas to fall to the ground after Galan has dropped him


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

So how did it jump to mach 3000


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

You know just send us the link to the calc.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> So how did it jump to mach 3000



300 Miles in 0.47 seconds


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

I don't even have a clue how this have gone at this point pls link the blog or the calc.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

When I’m back at my pc I can link the entire blog Yeha


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## Daio (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> I don't even have a clue how this have gone at this point pls link the blog or the calc.


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

so I just checked it so why did he calc meliodas from the feet down when we see meliodas drop his head first before his feet the next panel

 1st mistake. also fucking ravensupreme made the calc and he didn't even mentioned it when I am already talking to him..

also the drop is definitely not going to be using 9.8 m/s considering how the position ended.

using the gravity is basically would result in an inflated result when the drop is faster.

His head came down first before his feet.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

His feet had to obviously reach the floor first when he is dropped. Him turning his body mid-Fall doesnt make his feet not-fall

I made the calc in 2015 and it hasn’t been updated ever since. The new high end justifications aren’t even in it. As in the new panels etc


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## shade0180 (Dec 10, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> His feet had to obviously reach the floor first when he is dropped. Him turning his body mid-Fall doesnt make his feet not-fall
> 
> I made the calc in 2015 and it hasn’t been updated ever since. The new high end justifications aren’t even in it. As in the new panels etc



okay,  just do your thing.

But seriously I'm not attacking you just want to know the specifics of how you got your numbers.
 if you can get the update approved great job.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

shade0180 said:


> okay,  just do your thing.
> 
> But seriously I'm not attacking you just want to know the specifics of how you got your numbers.
> if you can get the update approved great job.



Not really feeling attacked tho. In contrary. While always very detailed and long ass back and forth debating with you it’s civil. I think we had discussions on some other threads too


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

From what I gather, we agree Katakuri defo beats Derrieri if she doesn't go Indura, correct?


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 10, 2018)

I still hold strong with my assessment of her being 96GT in base which would mean she takes him even then but apparently I am outvoted, including other knowledgable NNT users for her base. So I guess Ill have to accept that.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

Fair enough


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> From what I gather, we agree Katakuri defo beats Derrieri if she doesn't go Indura, correct?


No. She has more utility and hax w/ Indura as a last resort. 

Hellifire/darkness cuck his psuedo logia shit. 

Flight cucks him.

Getting stunlocked with darkness hits is GG.

Soulfuck which he has absolutely no answer to.

Indura to bully him if she needs it.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Hellifire/darkness cuck his psuedo logia shit.



Not only can he take it or dodge it, Derrieri focuses on physical attacks so her using Hellfire would not only be rare, but barely effective.
Also, how does darkness ''cuck'' him?



Dr. White said:


> Flight cucks him.



In what way, shape or form?



Dr. White said:


> Getting stunlocked with darkness hits is GG.



Huh?



Dr. White said:


> Soulfuck which he has absolutely no answer to.



Which only works on fodders


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> Not only can he take it or dodge it, Derrieri focuses on physical attacks so her using Hellfire would not only be rare, but barely effective


No.

Derriere can use flame shit however she likes, adding it to her first, blowing it out out of her hands like grey hendy, etc. 

He can take it, but it's going to cuck his psuedo regen which is the point. It keeps burning like Ama and doing DoT.





> In what way, shape or form?


He can't reach her. She can reign down darkness/Hellfire attacks.

Remind you that a simple red demon could use 







> Huh?


Stunlock = getting hit by multiple things in a system that keeps buffering someone's ability to react or move, thus being "locked" and darkness will cuck his logia powers while the hits keep increasing to a level that was fucking up Multiple commandment Estarossa.




> Which only works on fodders


No it doesn't. you are making this bullshit up and that's not how hax works. If you don't have resistance to a hax you get fucked. Period.

Not to mention it has worked on HF  Ban and escanor who are far from fodder.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Derriere can use flame shit however she likes, adding it to her first, blowing it out out of her hands like grey hendy, etc.



She can spread darkness, but she never (IIRC) shown to be capable of spreading it as much as Katakuri can evade



Dr. White said:


> He can take it, but it's going to cuck his psuedo regen which is the point. It keeps burning like Ama and doing DoT.



Pseudo regen? You mean logia intangibility? Katakuri doesn't have that, people (in-verse) think he has that because he shapes his body to evade hits making it appear like he is logia



Dr. White said:


> He can't reach her. She can reign down darkness/Hellfire attacks.
> 
> Remind you that a simple red demon could use



Except that if Derrieri gets to height where Katakuri can't reach her, he can easily dodge her attacks or just block small part that would hit him.



Dr. White said:


> Stunlock = getting hit by multiple things in a system that keeps buffering someone's ability to react or move, thus being "locked" and darkness will cuck his logia powers while the hits keep increasing to a level that was fucking up Multiple commandment Estarossa.



Except he isn't getting stunned, not only can he evade her physical strikes, but he can overpower her and outmaneuver as well.
Also, strike her from below, behind, up, right or left, she gets fucked in a fight



Dr. White said:


> No it doesn't. you are making this bullshit up and that's not how hax works. If you don't have resistance to a hax you get fucked. Period.



Notice how Derrieri and her like never use it on anyone on their level.
And by that logic, Katakuri just knocks Derriere with CoC since she has no willpower feats to resist it
and Haki=spirit



Dr. White said:


> Not to mention it has worked on HF Ban and escanor who are far from fodder.



HF only increases physical strength and Melascula got fucked by taking Escanor's soul
Also, she is different, she is a hax type who uses magic and that ability in combat (outright saying she is master in manipulating souls)


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> She can spread darkness, but she never (IIRC) shown to be capable of spreading it as much as Katakuri can evade



Do you know what scaling is? She is a demon. She can use demon powers. Anything that is inherent to all demons, she can do better than fodder Grey and Red demons.



> Pseudo regen? You mean logia intangibility? Katakuri doesn't have that, people (in-verse) think he has that because he shapes his body to evade hits making it appear like he is logia


I was told this wasn't the case, and that he actually does turn to mochi. Not to sure on it myself, but even so if that's th case he is still fucked.

I think you are thinking of something like Trebol, IIRC we've seen holes get blown through his body in which he wouldn't be able to move. Trebol had a weird body and hid when about to be hit.





> Except that if Derrieri gets to height where Katakuri can't reach her, he can easily dodge her attacks or just block small part that would hit him.


What are you even arguing here? She's obviously gonna stay in a range he can't hit her, and in which she can hit him.

Why are you reaching so hard?




> Except he isn't getting stunned, not only can he evade her physical strikes, but he can overpower her and outmaneuver as well.
> Also, strike her from below, behind, up, right or left, she gets fucked in a fight


Ok, if your answer to everything is "katakuri evades!" when Luffy was tagging him, then idk what to tell you dude.

And no stun lock is more than about just being hurt. Meliodas is a more skilled fighter than Derriere and was molesting island fighters 2v1 in Dolor/Glox, and blitzed Galan enough to cut him several times, in under a second.

He still got stunlocked.





> Notice how Derrieri and her like never use it on anyone on their level.


Notice how that doesn't matter or counter the argument given we know she has access to it. PIS is a thing.



> And by that logic, Katakuri just knocks Derriere with CoC since she has no willpower feats to resist it
> and Haki=spirit


Except that CoC isn't a hax....It's crushing someone with immense aura, and is shown to only work on people with weak wills. Btw Derriere does have a spirit stat, and people with over 500 spirit can avoid Gowther's blackout which takes out small city level characters with mind hax, which she scales to.

And that's an actual hax, just conditional.

It's completely different than soul hax so this is an equivocation fallacy. 





> HF only increases physical strength


Ok? You claimed it only worked on fodder, which is untrue.



> and Melascula got fucked by taking Escanor's soul


Ok? That's irrelevant. The hax still worked on escanor, his soul being infused with sunshine and Mera being unable to resist the power of the grace attached to his soul is completely irrelevant, as the hax clearly worked.



> Also, she is different, she is a hax type who uses magic and that ability in combat (outright saying she is master in manipulating souls)


Ok? Fodder red demons can fuck souls, and most of the commandments can do so as well.

Mera being the best means jackshit. She is just better than the rest lmao. Katakuri still has no soulfuck resistance and Derriere has a soulfuck. Ergo katakuri gets soulfucked.


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## xenos5 (Dec 10, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Derriere can use flame shit however she likes, adding it to her first, blowing it out out of her hands like grey hendy, etc.
> 
> He can take it, but it's going to cuck his psuedo regen which is the point. It keeps burning like Ama and doing DoT.



I don't see why he couldn't just separate the parts of his body covered in it and THEN regenerate, sort of like amputation. He splits his entire mochi body apart all the time to avoid attacks. And he shoots off his own arm like a rocket fist for one of his techniques (Grilled Mochi). 



Dr. White said:


> He can't reach her. She can reign down darkness/Hellfire attacks.
> 
> Remind you that a simple red demon could use



That's not Derriere's fighting style (spamming ranged attacks from a distance) heck I don't remember her using any hellblaze techniques even though we know she potentially could do that. 

Also I think you're underestimating Katakuri's AOE/range. You keep bringing up the Red Demon's AOE feat and scaling it to Derriere but what about the AOE of stuff Katakuri scales to? Katakuri is >>>>> Doflamingo so he should be able to cover an entire city in Mochi just like Doflamingo can trap an entire city with strings using Bird Cage. Bird Cage wasn't even hard for Doflamingo to maintain (it kept going even after he was beaten to shit by G4 Boundman Luffy, and couldn't even move for a bit after being hit by Leo Bazooka). 



Dr. White said:


> Stunlock = getting hit by multiple things in a system that keeps buffering someone's ability to react or move, thus being "locked" and darkness will cuck his logia powers while the hits keep increasing to a level that was fucking up Multiple commandment Estarossa.



Katakuri wasn't stunlocked by G4 Luffy. I don't see Derriere doing what Luffy couldn't (considering her base level is weaker). Katakuri even had a slugfest with G4 Snakeman Luffy (immediately punched back whenever he got punched). Combo Star resets whenever a combo is interrupted and I assume being hit back would count as interrupting the combo. 

I know you mentioned Derriere using Darkness Tendrils or something like that earlier in this thread (though I don't recall her fighting style including that) but I am pretty confident Katakuri could generate more attacks with multiple Power Mochi, and multiple Mochi arms being used at the same time.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

Dr. White said:


> Do you know what scaling is? She is a demon. She can use demon powers. Anything that is inherent to all demons, she can do better than fodder Grey and Red demons.



I'm talking physically, not a magic hellfire



Dr. White said:


> What are you even arguing here? She's obviously gonna stay in a range he can't hit her, and in which she can hit him



That if she goes up few kilometers she can't really do shit to him.



Dr. White said:


> Why are you reaching so hard?



You are the one arguing Derrieri would do something completely out of her character and impractical



Dr. White said:


> Ok, if your answer to everything is "katakuri evades!" when Luffy was tagging him, then idk what to tell you dude.



Luffy was barely tagging him after going in a form that is much faster than the one that nearly blitzed Katakuri, developed future sight of his own, had attacks that can track Katakuri and move faster as they go



Dr. White said:


> And no stun lock is more than about just being hurt. Meliodas is a more skilled fighter than Derriere and was molesting island fighters 2v1 in Dolor/Glox, and blitzed Galan enough to cut him several times, in under a second.
> 
> He still got stunlocked.



Those two are 23.5 GT and Meliodas was beating them by fighting 1 at the time.
Katakuri is 84+ GT, it's not nearly the same situation.
She doesn't get in stunlock against Katakuri



Dr. White said:


> Notice how that doesn't matter or counter the argument given we know she has access to it. PIS is a thing.



We only consider something PIS if there is no other way to explain it



Dr. White said:


> Except that CoC isn't a hax....It's crushing someone with immense aura, and is shown to only work on people with weak wills.



Because...?
It's crushing their will, Luffy could knock out 50000 thousand people with his CoC, does that mean he would be able to knock out Derrieri?

Obviously not



Dr. White said:


> Btw Derriere does have a spirit stat, and people with over 500 spirit can avoid Gowther's blackout which takes out small city level characters with mind hax, which she scales to.



Did you just argue willpower having a stat?



Dr. White said:


> And that's an actual hax, just conditional.
> 
> It's completely different than soul hax so this is an equivocation fallacy.



You mean Haki?



Dr. White said:


> Ok? You claimed it only worked on fodder, which is untrue.


Because for most demons, it does. 
But sure, let's switch to next point



Dr. White said:


> Ok? Fodder red demons can fuck souls, and most of the commandments can do so as well.



And they regularly do so... on regular humans and sometimes low-level fighters.
Except Melascula



Dr. White said:


> Mera being the best means jackshit. She is just better than the rest lmao. Katakuri still has no soulfuck resistance and Derriere has a soulfuck. Ergo katakuri gets soulfucked.



It explains why it's a power she actually uses in combat.
You are advocating that Katakuri's soul resistance is same as that of a regular farmer.

This is on same level of bullshit as ''lol reiatsu crash'' that Bleachtards love to use.


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> I'm talking physically, not a magic hellfire
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Katakuri has no soulfuck resistance, soulfuck only working on some relative fodders means jackshit in a vs setting


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 10, 2018)

It's same fucking argument that Bleachtards used back in days and same argument One Piece could use but doesn't

But fuck it, I lost the care for that argument.

If you honestly think Derrieri can eat a soul of anyone who didn't show direct soul resistance, go for it.


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## Kingdom Come (Dec 10, 2018)

So Katakuri massacres Derieri.
Got ya


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## Mythoclast (Dec 10, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> It's same fucking argument that Bleachtards used back in days and same argument One Piece could use but doesn't
> 
> But fuck it, I lost the care for that argument.
> 
> *If you honestly think Derrieri can eat a soul of anyone who didn't show direct soul resistance, go for it.*


That's how shit works around here pal.


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## Kingdom Come (Dec 10, 2018)

Someone gonna add this as a win for Katakuri and a loss for Derieri now or no


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## OneSimpleAnime (Dec 10, 2018)

Fraudrin casually soulfucked some magic knights from a distance and hes barely one of the 10c


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 11, 2018)

Mythoclast said:


> That's how shit works around here pal.



Nah. Soulsteal hax can’t be equalized to reiatsu crush

That’s a disingenuous way of trying to downplay the validity of a common hax across hundreds of verses which needs a resistance in comparison of some obscure „my aura is stronger than yours“ thing from a single verse


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 11, 2018)

@Dr. White 
If that kind of shit flies here, sure.

Derrieri can eat Katakuri's soul, as stupid as it is.



Dr. White said:


> Ok? I am talking about all of her arsenal, and she can maek dark weapons with power of darkness to increase her CqC AOE.



Except I'm not denying her Hellfire hitting him from close range, I'm denying her physical attacks landing because he can evade them via mochi



Dr. White said:


> A.) Do you know what aerial advantage is? If she shoots a fire streamd own from a KM up...guess where it's going...
> 
> B.) She doesn't need to go "KM's up" she can literally just play fucking keep away by going dozens to hundreds of meters up.



1) Read my comment. If Derrieri fires an attack from a km away, Katakuri can dodge it if it has small area and just block a small part that would hit him if it has large area

2) Not really when Awakening can reach kilometers in the air



Dr. White said:


> That's cool and all but Derriere is faster, has amazing senses of her own, and a much different arsenal than Luffy.



Bounceman was blitzing Luffy, Derrieri is hardly faster even with high end of the calc.
Her ''amazing'' senses don't mean much in a fight. Meliodas considered screen smoke as an optimal way to evade 10C, her magical senses are nowhere near Luffy's CoO which allows him to see what is going to hit him (a precog)
Physically, arsenal doesn't matter, I said magical attacks can land and widespread darkness can be evaded just as normal physical attacks.


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## RavenSupreme (Dec 11, 2018)

Man from Shadow said:


> @Dr. White
> If that kind of shit flies here, sure.
> 
> Derrieri can eat Katakuri's soul, as stupid as it is.
> ...



Soulhax is not "shit which flies". Its a common ability across a variety of fictional verses and the overall agreed theme is if you aint having resistance to it you aint having resistance, pretty simple. Equalizing it with some form of aura-superiority shenanigans from a single verse is not applicable.

In addition blitzing doesnt mean much, consideringn 30K characters have blitzed other Mach 3.6K characters just fine and Derriere is significantly above the ones who done the blitzing, yet she still gets scaled to that numbers.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 11, 2018)

As I said, that is accepted here so I can't argue it.


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## Mythoclast (Dec 11, 2018)

RavenSupreme said:


> Nah. Soulsteal hax can’t be equalized to reiatsu crush
> 
> That’s a disingenuous way of trying to downplay the validity of a common hax across hundreds of verses which needs a resistance in comparison of some obscure „my aura is stronger than yours“ thing from a single verse


That's not what I'm advocating for tho.


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## Man from Shadow (Dec 11, 2018)

@Dr. White 
Also



Dr. White said:


> Ok? Meliodas was 48 Gt, and that's only 1/2 the power Kata gets scaled to.
> 
> You understand how margin of error is accounted for here correct? That difference is marginal, he isn't just taking those blows when we saw him get injrued by island level attacks.
> 
> Stun lock isn't about damage. I already explained this, he will be damaged as the time goes on but the lock is from momentum, and agility.



Hence Katakuri can overpower her, unlike Meliodas

Attacks twice as strong as that one hitting him directly in the face while he is focusing to get his CoO back, it's not the same thing.

Which Kata can counter with CoO, strength and mochi.
Just trap Derrieri in it and stop her from hitting him any further


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