# Itachi vs Kakashi



## Luftwaffles (Feb 24, 2013)

Location: Sauce vs KB
Distance: 40 meters
Knowledge: Manga
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Izanami and Koto

Itachi is alive and as healthy as he was before he fought Hebi, he has the same amount of AIDs pills he had to keep him going. He has Edo feats.

Kakashi starts fresh, like he was before the war. He has War Arc Kamui feats.


Scenario 2: Kyuubi shroud Kakashi with 3 sealing tags vs Edo Itachi. Same restrictions apply.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

*Well, Kakashi knows what Itachi is capable of, so Kamui GG.*


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## Baroxio (Feb 24, 2013)

*Well, Itachi knows what Kakashi is capable of, so Amaterasu GG.*


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 24, 2013)

^No he's not.


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## Seiji (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Well, Kakashi knows what Itachi is capable of, so Kamui GG.*



*Well, Kakashi knows what Madara is capable of, so Kamui GG.*


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> *Well, Itachi knows what Kakashi is capable of, so Amaterasu GG.*



*Well, first, he doesn't know.
Secondly, Kakashi could react to Susano'o arrows so no Amaterasu GG even if Itachi would have used it off the bat (but he wouldn't).*



Siriυs said:


> *Well, Kakashi knows what Madara is capable of, so Kamui GG.*



*TBH, if Madara is close enough and Obito isn't around, Kakashi should win, hypothetically of course because Kishi would have never let such thing happen, however according to Kakashi's feats, he is able to Kamui Madara off the bat.*


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## Baroxio (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Well, Kakashi knows what Itachi is capable of, so Kamui GG.*


*Well, first, he doesn't know.
Secondly, Itachi could react to Kirin so no Kamui GG even if Kakashi would have used it off the bat (but he wouldn't).*


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Well, Kakashi knows what Itachi is capable of, so Kamui GG.*



Kakashi hasn't even witnessed Itachi's Susano'o, nor anything outside of his fight against 30% Itachi. Kakashi needs proper timing to use Kamui - knowing that there's a huge chance that the Itachi he fights most of the time is a clone or genjutsu. Itachi tends to move fast outside of Susano'o so he probably doesn't even need to use Susano'o or just use it as bait. Kakashi can dodge Itachi's eyes of-course, but not his _finger_ (He doesn't even know that Itachi can cast genjutsu with a bare finger) and he could easily get caught into the finger genjutsu while trying to focus with Kamui, if Itachi lets him. You can do the poor argument and say that Kakashi starts off with Kamui but that's utter nonsense. This Kakashi is in character and he knows more than to waste Kamui against a clone (Itachi's clone was holding Nagato the whole time at the start of the fight against Naruto and Bee while no one knew it was a clone).

Don't know what you're trying to prove here but a little more text would be nice. 



> *Kakashi could react to Susano'o arrows so no Amaterasu GG even if Itachi would have used it off the bat (but he wouldn't).*



Speed of Sasuke's Susano'o's arrows =/= Speed of Amatarasu. Amatarasu can appear where-ever the user focuses it to.. and arrows are propelled.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> *Well, first, he doesn't know.
> Secondly, Itachi could react to Kirin so no Kamui GG even if Kakashi would have used it off the bat (but he wouldn't).*



*
Itachi beat him with his MS, which is enough for him to opt for Kamui off the bat.

As far as I know Itachi can't negate Kamui so he can't do anything about it, and he could barely react to Kirin with his incomplete Susano'o, and Susano'o doesn't negate S/T techniques.*


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

At 40 meters the only one who has a chance to one shot with MS is Kakashi so let's just stop that nonsense. Anyways, Raiton Kage Bunshin will come into play and most likely be what ends Itachi.


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## Luftwaffles (Feb 24, 2013)

Baroxio said:


> *Well, first, he doesn't know.
> Secondly, Itachi could react to Kirin so no Kamui GG even if Kakashi would have used it off the bat (but he wouldn't).*


Kakashi cut a bolt of lightning in half with Raikiri... and no Susano'o


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Kakashi hasn't even witnessed Itachi's Susano'o, nor anything outside of his fight against 30% Itachi. Kakashi needs proper timing to use Kamui - knowing that there's a huge chance that the Itachi he fights most of the time is a clone or genjutsu. Itachi tends to move fast outside of Susano'o so he probably doesn't even need to use Susano'o or just use it as bait. Kakashi can dodge Itachi's eyes of-course, but not his _finger_ (He doesn't even know that Itachi can cast genjutsu with a bare finger) and he could easily get caught into the finger genjutsu while trying to focus with Kamui, if Itachi lets him. You can do the argument that Kakashi starts off with kamui but that's utter nonsense (Assuming Itachi isn't moving around). This Kakashi is in character and he knows more than to waste Kamui against a clone (Itachi's clone was holding Nagato the whole time at the start of the fight against Naruto and Bee while no one knew it was a clone).
> 
> Don't know what you're trying to prove here but a little more text would be nice.



*When i feel a need to write a lot of text i do so.
Kakashi actually witnessed his MS and he got mind raped by Tsukuyomi.
Kakashi could Kamui two whole Susano'o arrows after they were shot at him from about 15~20 meters, AND his MS wasn't activated before the arrows were shot, so he can Kamui Itachi off the bat just fine, I also don't see why would Itachi use a bunshin off the bat without knowledge of Kamui of Kakashi's MS in general.
It should end pretty much off the bat.
About the Finger Genjutsu, it's weak. Supplementary type move. it can be strong depending on how its utilized. it can leave openings to take advantage in certain situations, however Kakashi can see through such Genjutsu quite easily by using his Sharingan or even better his MS. Also, his chakra control should be better than Naruto's. (At least better than Naruto form that time who could resist the Genjutsu a bit as it was meant to put him to sleep.)*


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *
> Itachi beat him with his MS, which is enough for him to opt for Kamui off the bat.
> 
> As far as I know Itachi can't negate Kamui so he can't do anything about it, and he could barely react to Kirin with his incomplete Susano'o, and Susano'o doesn't negate S/T techniques.*



Itachi can negate Kamui, by moving around. And read my previous post.



IchLiebe said:


> At 40 meters the only one who has a chance to one shot with MS is Kakashi so let's just stop that nonsense. Anyways, Raiton Kage Bunshin will come into play and most likely be what ends Itachi.



Yes, because using Kamui off the bat makes any sense. Very poor arguing skills if you're giving Kakashi the win simply due to a Bunshin.



> When i feel a need to write a lot of text i do so.
> Kakashi actually witnessed his MS and he got mind raped by Tsukuyomi.



I said he didn't witness Susano'o, I never said he didn't witness Tsukuyomi.




> Kakashi could Kamui two whole Susano'o arrows after they were shot at him from about 15~20 meters, AND his MS wasn't activated before the arrows were shot, so he can Kamui Itachi off the bat just fine, I also don't see why would Itachi use a bunshin off the bat without knowledge of Kamui of Kakashi's MS in general.



Well, I don't see why Itachi would use a Bunshin off the bat before fighting Naruto and Bee. 




> About the Finger Genjutsu, it's weak. Supplementary type move. it can be strong depending on how its utilized. it can leave openings to take advantage in certain situations,



Prove it.



> however Kakashi can see through such Genjutsu quite easily by using his Sharingan or even better his MS.



MS doesn't help you see through Genjutsu any better than Sharingan. Sasuke himself (Who's a full Uchiha unlike Kakashi) went through Genjutsu wars with Itachi (While Itachi was playing around) and still couldn't keep up. What makes you think Kakashi could do the same? Kakashi =/= Sasuke. 



> Also, his chakra control should be better than Naruto's. (At least better than Naruto form that time who could resist the Genjutsu a bit as it was meant to put him to sleep.)



Prove it.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Yes, because using Kamui off the bat makes any sense. Very poor arguing skills if you're giving Kakashi the win simply due to a Bunshin.



Did you miss where I said let's stop that nonsense? That was for both sides. I am because it will most likely paralyze Itachi and then Raikiri. If you have anything to say then say it and I will post back.


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> *Did you miss where I said let's stop that nonsense? That was for both sides.* I am because it will most likely paralyze Itachi and then Raikiri. If you have anything to say then say it and I will post back.





> *At 40 meters the only one who has a chance to one shot with MS is Kakashi* so let's just stop that nonsense.



Funny.



> Anyways, Raiton Kage Bunshin will come into play and most likely be what ends Itachi.



Really nice explanation you have there.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Funny.



Yeah it's true. Then I immediately said let's stop that nonsense, as neither would resort to MS right off the bat.



> Really nice explanation you have there.



Better than anything you have said. You haven't even said how the fight will most likely happen, just Kamui won't work.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 24, 2013)

Since it is in character, Kakashi should know that he has no chance without Kamui, so he would switch to MS right away. Anything else in his entire arsenal would fail, and getting mind crushed probably taught him not to hold back against Itachi. Itachi on other hand, wouldn't go all out right away, but he most certainly wouldn't be standing there and let Kakashi Kamui him. Id depends really. Can Kakashi Kamui him before Itachi genjutsu's Kakashi.


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## deathgod (Feb 24, 2013)

Did Kakashi develop a resistance to Tsukiyomi like Sasuke did? Is Kamui an instant jutsu? Has Kamui actually killed anybody and how long did it take him to warp them? 

I just don't see Kakashi winning this as Itachi is basically just as good if not better than Kakashi in all areas (Intelligence/Speed/Fighting Skills etc)


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

deathgod said:


> Did Kakashi develop a resistance to Tsukiyomi like Sasuke did? Is Kamui an instant jutsu? Has Kamui actually killed anybody and how long did it take him to warp them?
> 
> I just don't see Kakashi winning this as Itachi is basically just as good if not better than Kakashi in all areas (Intelligence/Speed/Fighting Skills etc)



There's no reason why Kakashi can't break it. Sasuke did and Kakashi has MS unlike Sasuke. Kamui has shown to be near instant. Doujutsu users couldn't even see or notice what happened when he used Kamui.


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Yeah it's true. Then I immediately said let's stop that nonsense, as neither would resort to MS right off the bat.



Doing something you think is nonsense before saying not to do it doesn't really stop it.

And Kakashi isn't stupid enough to use Kamui off the bat against Itachi.



> Better than anything you have said. You haven't even said how the fight will most likely happen, just Kamui won't work.



I wrote a paragraph explaining why Kamui won't work while you wrote a _sentence_ to explain how Kakashi would win the fight.



IchLiebe said:


> There's no reason why Kakashi can't break it. Sasuke did and Kakashi has MS unlike Sasuke. Kamui has shown to be near instant. Doujutsu users couldn't even see or notice what happened when he used Kamui.



Sasuke did it while fighting the man he always wanted to kill throughout his whole life and used his strong will. Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't help you any more against it. What does Space and Time jutsu have to do with Tsukuyomi? Kakashi isn't even full Uchiha blood like Itachi stated. You can't use a feat Sasuke used to use for Kakashi - Kishimoto made them different characters for a reason. Kamui is seen to be near instant because everything Kakashi has been using it so far has been coming towards him. If it's a moving object then he has to focus a lot more and we already know Itachi does surprises with clones. A clone walked with Nagato before fighting Naruto and Bee before the fight even started. Using Kamui against that would be a waste of chakra - regardless if it's instant or not.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Doing something you think is nonsense before saying not to do it doesn't really stop it.




It's called ending the arguement. Kamui is the only MS jutsu that can be used at that range so no need to talk about it.



> And Kakashi isn't stupid enough to use Kamui off the bat against Itachi.



I said he wouldn't.



> I wrote a paragraph explaining why Kamui won't work while you wrote a _sentence_ to explain how Kakashi would win the fight.



How does he get past RKB then?



> Sasuke did it while fighting the man he always wanted to kill throughout his whole life and used his strong will. Mangekyou Sharingan doesn't help you any more against it. What does Space and Time jutsu have to do with Tsukuyomi?




Because Kakashi has MS and is good with genjutsu. No reason why he can't. 



> Kamui is seen to be near instant because everything Kakashi has been using it so far has been coming towards him. If it's a moving object then he has to focus a lot more and we already know Itachi does surprises with clones. A clone walked with Nagato before fighting Naruto and Bee before the fight even started. Using Kamui against that would be a waste of chakra - regardless if it's instant or not.



And that means shit. Nothing can be sent to the other dimension till Kakashi does the last step of Kamui. 

The clone was not walking with Nagato like that. He made that bunshin on the spot.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Feb 24, 2013)

*Shame on anyone using normal text in this thread.*



Siriυs said:


> *Well, Kakashi knows what Madara is capable of, so Kamui GG.*



*Kakashi knows that Itachi is really powerful and too much to take alone without kamui.  So Kakashi will use Kamui.  Itachi has no knowledge on it, and even if he decided to go OoC and use Ameterasu off the bat, Kakashi's MS activation speed and feats are better and faster, having full body warped a charging BM Naruto so quickly Obito and his MS precog bullet time eyes couldn't see it when it happened right in front of him.

This goes double for Edo Itachi who gets super kamui'd.*


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Itachi can negate Kamui, by moving around. And read my previous post.



*So now he moves faster than Susano'o Arrows? A rocket? Too fast for Rinnegan Tobi? (Tobi didn't realize Kakashi warped Naruto's whole moving clone)*



> Yes, because using Kamui off the bat makes any sense. Very poor arguing skills if you're giving Kakashi the win simply due to a Bunshin.



*It actually does make sense, tell why wouldn't he if Itachi already mind raped him before and he knows how dangerous Itachi is?*



> I said he didn't witness Susano'o, I never said he didn't witness Tsukuyomi.



*You wrote:
'' Kakashi hasn't even witnessed Itachi's Susano'o, nor anything outside of his fight against 30% Itachi. ''

Tsukuyomi was outside of his fight against 30% Itachi.
*


> Well, I don't see why Itachi would use a Bunshin off the bat before fighting Naruto and Bee.



*I don't see why either, but Kakashi /=/ Naruto and Bee and Itachi doesn't have prep time in this battle.*



> Prove it.



*Naruto from that time could resist it a bit, and he isn't good at breaking Genjutsu at all. And I believe Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is stronger unless you can prove otherwise, as it is only logical his Sharingan is better than his finger.

Kakashi can clearly break Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu so Ephemeral (AKA Finger Genjutsu) wont work on him.
Itachi himself said he wouldn't expect his Genjutsu to work on Kakashi and the fact he used the Genjutsu on a KB explains why it worked.*



> MS doesn't help you see through Genjutsu any better than Sharingan. Sasuke himself (Who's a full Uchiha unlike Kakashi) went through Genjutsu wars with Itachi (While Itachi was playing around) and still couldn't keep up. What makes you think Kakashi could do the same? Kakashi =/= Sasuke.



*Any proof Sasuke's normal Genjutsu is stronger than Kakashi's?
Kakashi's normal Genjutsu worked on a Jonin-level ninja for a long time, and Kakashi got to train his Sharingan off-panel since chapter 1X, so it is very very likely he got better in terms of Genjutsu.
Kakashi couldn't break Tsukuyomi like Sasuke for the sole reason he wasn't a Uchia.*



> Prove it.



*Alright.

The guy was exhausted after using his normal Sharingan not for a long time.
Now he can use his Raikiri more times and use Kamui a bunch of times before his chakra drains out, it's all about chakra control and his chakra control became pretty amazing.

Naruto's chakra reserves are HUGE so he didn't need to work on his chakra control so much.

Heck, Kakashi could even use Naruto's signature technique, the Rasengan with just one hand, a task Base Naruto and arguably even SM Naruto never accomplished.*


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## Blu-ray (Feb 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> There's no reason why Kakashi can't break it. Sasuke did and Kakashi has MS unlike Sasuke. Kamui has shown to be near instant. Doujutsu users couldn't even see or notice what happened when he used Kamui.



Kakashi isn't Sasuke. Itachi said that to break Tsukuyomi, you must have sharingan and Uchiha blood. MS is irrelevant. Kakashi is no Uchiha. Were is it even stated that having MS can help you break Tsukuyomi?


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> It's called ending the arguement. Kamui is the only MS jutsu that can be used at that range so no need to talk about it.



Can't assume for sure. Amatarasu can be focused and used on the same distance as Kamui, most probably. Itachi used it against the unlimited-headed dog on a distance.




> How does he get past RKB then?



Raiton Kage Bunshin? Like any other Bunshin. Itachi's as good with clones as much as Kakashi or even better (Although both use it differently so you can't really compare). His seal speed would allow him to summon a Bunshin almost immediately like he did against Sasuke to use as a last second protection. _Skipping ahead_ - if anything, Susano'o.





> Because Kakashi has MS and is good with genjutsu. No reason why he can't.




*Spoiler*: __ 



Kurenai lives off of genjutsu. No reason she can't fend off Tsukuyomi.

*Oh wait.*




Mangekyou Sharingan has nothing to do with fending off genjutsu and Itachi himself mentioned Kakashi needs Uchiha blood.




> And that means shit. Nothing can be sent to the other dimension till Kakashi does the last step of Kamui.



Nothing swaying side from side that he actually had to focus for. It was a given Kamui-win for him and he used it because he knew he would be able to, not because he can use Kamui anytime he wants to.



> The clone was not walking with Nagato like that. He made that bunshin on the spot.



Good. So Itachi will make the Bunshin on the spot.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> I said he wouldn't.



I did too! But he can.




> Raiton Kage Bunshin? Like any other Bunshin. Itachi's as good with clones as much as Kakashi or even better (Although both use it differently so you can't really compare). His seal speed would allow him to summon a Bunshin almost immediately like he did against Sasuke to use as a last second protection. _Skipping ahead_ - if anything, Susano'o.



Not against RKB, if he stabs it, it's over. Nothing he can do.



> Kurenai lives off of genjutsu. No reason she can't fend of Tsukuyomi.
> 
> Oh wait.



Way to be a smart ass.  says, 





> Concurrently, the only ones who can defeat Tsukuyomi are Sharingan possessors... And even then, exclusively the elite shinobi who have reached particularly high degrees of skillfulness.



Kakashi has sharingan, and is a elite shinobi who has reached a particularly high degree of skillfullness.



> Nothing swaying side from side that he actually had to focus for. It was a given Kamui-win for him and he used it because he knew he would be able to, not because he can use Kamui anytime he wants to.



He kamui Deidara when he was flying, and Kakashi was jumping up and down. Note the only reason it was slow was because Kakashi wasn't good with it yet. So aim's not a problem.



> Good. So Itachi will make the Bunshin on the spot.



Yet it won't do anything.


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## deathgod (Feb 24, 2013)

@The Pirate on Wheels, Itachi kinda does have knowledge on Kamui seeing as that's Tobi/Obitos jutsu and Itachi spent years with him. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a counter for it, he did say every jutsu has a weakness.

If Kamui was an instant one shot like most of you are making it out to be, then Kakashi would be able to defeat everyone in Naruto in a heads up battle. He could just one shot anyone except for Obito instantly.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

deathgod said:


> @The Pirate on Wheels, Itachi kinda does have knowledge on Kamui seeing as that's Tobi/Obitos jutsu and Itachi spent years with him. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a counter for it, he did say every jutsu has a weakness.
> 
> If Kamui was an instant one shot like most of you are making it out to be, then Kakashi would be able to defeat everyone in Naruto in a heads up battle. He could just one shot anyone except for Obito instantly.



Yeah...No way to stop it.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

deathgod said:


> @The Pirate on Wheels, Itachi kinda does have knowledge on Kamui seeing as that's Tobi/Obitos jutsu and Itachi spent years with him. I'd be surprised if he didn't have a counter for it, he did say every jutsu has a weakness.
> 
> If Kamui was an instant one shot like most of you are making it out to be, then Kakashi would be able to defeat everyone in Naruto in a heads up battle. He could just one shot anyone except for Obito instantly.



*He had no idea of Kamui nor Tobi's S/T abilities, or else he would have known using Tanscryption Seal: Amaterasu on Sasuke wont lead to Tobi's death.

Basically Kakashi can Kamui most of Narutoverse off the bat 1 on 1, he's got the feats.
It's just Kishi would have never let such thing happen.*


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## LukyArbyz (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *So now he moves faster than Susano'o Arrows? A rocket? Too fast for Rinnegan Tobi? (Tobi didn't realize Kakashi warped Naruto's whole moving clone)*



So if I dodge a car, I'm faster than a car.

Nice.





> *It actually does make sense, tell why wouldn't he if Itachi already mind raped him before and he knows how dangerous Itachi is?*




Madara is much more dangerous and he didn't use it against him.




> *You wrote:
> '' Kakashi hasn't even witnessed Itachi's Susano'o, nor anything outside of his fight against 30% Itachi. ''
> 
> Tsukuyomi was outside of his fight against 30% Itachi.
> *



I met anything after that point, obviously.




> *I don't see why either, but Kakashi /=/ Naruto and Bee and Itachi doesn't have prep time in this battle.*



What makes you think Itachi won't utilize time like Kakashi either?



> *Naruto from that time could resist it a bit, and he isn't good at breaking Genjutsu at all. And I believe Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is stronger unless you can prove otherwise, as it is only logical his Sharingan is better than his finger.*



Genjutsu is genjutsu. What matters is if you get caught in it or not. Some can be harder to break than other but that gives Itachi some lay time, nonetheless.



> Kakashi can clearly break Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu so Ephemeral (AKA Finger Genjutsu) wont work on him.
> Itachi himself said he wouldn't expect his Genjutsu to work on Kakashi and the fact he used the Genjutsu on a KB explains why it worked.[/B]



Kakashi is smart by using the Kage Bunshin but that doesn't mean he can break the genjutsu. 

Eating a banana in a few bites doesn't mean you can do handstand pushups.




> *Any proof Sasuke's normal Genjutsu is stronger than Kakashi's?
> Kakashi's normal Genjutsu worked on a Jonin-level ninja for a long time, and Kakashi got to train his Sharingan off-panel since chapter 1X, so it is very very likely he got better in terms of Genjutsu.
> Kakashi couldn't break Tsukuyomi like Sasuke for the sole reason he wasn't a Uchia.*



Itachi had off-panel time to train his sharingan once he attained it.

Good, so he can't break Tsukuyomi because he's not an Uchiha.





> *Alright.
> 
> The guy was exhausted after using his normal Sharingan not for a long time.
> Now he can use his Raikiri more times and use Kamui a bunch of times before his chakra drains out, it's all about chakra control and his chakra control became pretty amazing.*



Yes, chakra control is amazing.



> Naruto's chakra reserves are HUGE so he didn't need to work on his chakra control so much.
> 
> Heck, Kakashi could even use Naruto's signature technique, the Rasengan with just one hand, a task Base Naruto and arguably even SM Naruto never accomplished.[/B]



We all know Naruto sucks at controlling chakra. 

Kakashi did an amazing feat at that time and we know he's good at controlling chakra and all but he doesn't use Rasengan and it has nothing to do with the fight. When Kakashi fights we know that he's using the chakra wisely. It doesn't really change anything.

I could say the same. Itachi got the wisdom of a Hokage at the age of 7... but that doesn't help with anything.





IchLiebe said:


> I did too! But he can.



Lol. Damn NF posting problems.






> Not against RKB, if he stabs it, it's over. Nothing he can do.



Not if it's a clone. 


*Spoiler*: __ 



Pretty sure this argument will go on forever since we can keep saying they use clones. What Itachi and Kakashi will do with clones, we will never know.






> Way to be a smart ass.  says,
> 
> Kakashi has sharingan, and is a elite shinobi who has reached a particularly high degree of skillfullness.



Doesn't prove if he would be able to break it or not. 

I can have a Driver's License but that doesn't mean I know how to drive.

Oh, and one hand

Damn Kishi and his contradictions.




> He kamui Deidara when he was flying, and Kakashi was jumping up and down. Note the only reason it was slow was because Kakashi wasn't good with it yet. So aim's not a problem.



When you jump up and down you can keep your head straight and aim perfectly since all you have to do is jump up and down. Itachi doesn't fly but goes from side to side. If you throw a ball up in the air and jump for it, you can focus easily since you don't even have to move your head. Catching Itachi with Kamui would be like trying to shoot a bee circling your head with a shotgun.




> Yet it won't do anything.



I can say the same thing about RKB.


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## Seiji (Feb 24, 2013)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> *Shame on anyone using normal text in this thread.*
> 
> *Kakashi knows that Itachi is really powerful and too much to take alone without kamui.  So Kakashi will use Kamui.  Itachi has no knowledge on it, and even if he decided to go OoC and use Ameterasu off the bat, Kakashi's MS activation speed and feats are better and faster, having full body warped a charging BM Naruto so quickly Obito and his MS precog bullet time eyes couldn't see it when it happened right in front of him.
> 
> This goes double for Edo Itachi who gets super kamui'd.*



Okay let's ignore the fact that Itachi has always been faster to pull out his Mangekyo trigger (by that I mean he's always more willing to use it first), combined with the idea that Itachi might also be aware that Kakashi has awakened his own MS. But since Itachi doesn't have any knowledge on Kamui, he gets quickly defeated. Completely understandable logic. Man, I hope he can do that to Madara too, Kishimoto would totally troll Madara if that should happen.

After all, he also did that against Kakuzu, against the guy who just invaded their village and against the V2 Jinchurikis. Oh wait.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> Lol. Damn NF posting problems.









> Not if it's a clone.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Except Itachi has fell for all of Kakashi's bunshin feints before.



> Doesn't prove if he would be able to break it or not.
> 
> I can have a Driver's License but that doesn't mean I know how to drive.
> 
> ...



Your comparisons are shitty. Kakashi knows how to use sharingan.

That's was plain stupid. No way having Uchiha blood does anything. They are humans, and not a different race. Itachi said that so people would know Sasuke would be the one to kill him.



> When you jump up and down you can keep your head straight and aim perfectly since all you have to do is jump up and down. Itachi doesn't fly but goes from side to side. If you throw a ball up in the air and jump for it, you can focus easily since you don't even have to move your head. Catching Itachi with Kamui would be like trying to shoot a bee circling your head with a shotgun.



Horrible comparison. Kakashi can keep up with Itach's speed.




> I can say the same thing about RKB.


[/quote]

No you can't.


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## deathgod (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *He had no idea of Kamui nor Tobi's S/T abilities, or else he would have known using Tanscryption Seal: Amaterasu on Sasuke wont lead to Tobi's death.
> 
> Basically Kakashi can Kamui most of Narutoverse off the bat 1 on 1, he's got the feats.
> It's just Kishi would have never let such thing happen.*



Itachi knew about Tobi before he joined Akakasuki, he just thought Tobi was Madara. Also he was still alive when Tobi joined the Akatsuki, and Tobi made no secret of the fact that he had a S/T jutsu. I'd be very surprised if Itachi didn't know he could do warp.

The Amateasu was more of a catch him by surprise/off guard thing, and it almost worked. It failed but it doesn't mean Itachi didn't have knowlege on Tobi's abilities.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

LukyArbyz said:


> So if I dodge a car, I'm faster than a car.
> 
> Nice.



*Fail logic, Kamui /=/ objectile.
The dimensional rift is created where the victim is, Itachi can do absolutely nothing.*



> Madara is much more dangerous and he didn't use it against him.



*Tobi was there *




> I met anything after that point, obviously.



*It isn't obvious at all but whatever, i'll take your word for it since I don't really care whether you changed your mind or not.*




> What makes you think Itachi won't utilize time like Kakashi either?



*Because Itachi has no reason to use a bunshin off the bat against Kakashi and Kakashi can Kamui him before he uses one anyway.*



> Genjutsu is genjutsu. What matters is if you get caught in it or not. Some can be harder to break than other but that gives Itachi some lay time, nonetheless.



*If he can break Itachi's Genjutsu he can just see through his finger Genjutsu.*



> Kakashi is smart by using the Kage Bunshin but that doesn't mean he can break the genjutsu.
> 
> Eating a banana in a few bites doesn't mean you can do handstand pushups.


*Stupid comparisons again? -_-

Look at the page again, he said he wouldn't expect him to be affected by the Genjutsu.*




> Itachi had off-panel time to train his sharingan once he attained it.
> 
> Good, so he can't break Tsukuyomi because he's not an Uchiha.



*And he did train it, but it has nothing to do with what I said.

Yep, that's what I said. (Tsukuyomi part)*



> Yes, chakra control is amazing.



*Indeed.*



> We all know Naruto sucks at controlling chakra.
> 
> Kakashi did an amazing feat at that time and we know he's good at controlling chakra and all but he doesn't use Rasengan and it has nothing to do with the fight. When Kakashi fights we know that he's using the chakra wisely. It doesn't really change anything.
> 
> I could say the same. Itachi got the wisdom of a Hokage at the age of 7... but that doesn't help with anything.



*So why did you ask me to prove it? WTH is wrong with you?
And it actually means Kakashi's chakra control is better than Naruto's and he can ''kai'' himself out of Genjutsus more easily than Naruto.

I do agree Itachi's wisdom doesn't help with anything here though.*


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 24, 2013)

deathgod said:


> Itachi knew about Tobi before he joined Akakasuki, he just thought Tobi was Madara. Also he was still alive when Tobi joined the Akatsuki, and Tobi made no secret of the fact that he had a S/T jutsu. I'd be very surprised if Itachi didn't know he could do warp.
> 
> The Amateasu was more of a catch him by surprise/off guard thing, and it almost worked. It failed but it doesn't mean Itachi didn't have knowlege on Tobi's abilities.



*Most of them considered him a joke and they didn't know of his S/T, Deidara, his partner, didn't know of his S/T techniques.

Also, i don't get what this has to do with the thread as it clearly doesn't matter wether Itachi knew Tobi could use Kamui or not, since Kakashi can execute the technique nearly instantly.*


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## kakashibeast (Feb 24, 2013)

kakashi solo s .. kamui solos


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## deathgod (Feb 24, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Most of them considered him a joke and they didn't know of his S/T, Deidara, his partner, didn't know of his S/T techniques.
> 
> Also, i don't get what this has to do with the thread as it clearly doesn't matter wether Itachi knew Tobi could use Kamui or not, since Kakashi can execute the technique nearly instantly.*



I brought up Kamui because theres a lot of people in this thread and others stating that kakashi can just one shot anyone with it. That means Obito can as well if true. Also how fast is it really, because Amaterasu is pretty fast as well.

Kisame, Nagato/Pain, Itachi all knew who he was (assumed he was Madara) and accepted him being really in charge. Its highly doubtful that they didn't know about his space time abilities. Moreso Itachi seeing as he and Madara destroyed the Uchiha if I recalled correctly.


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## Seon (Feb 24, 2013)

Why is Kakashi thought of in the same tier as Itachi? He's higher up than this. He doesn't need koto nor Izanami. Even still, Kakashi doesn't have firepower to take Itachi down either way. Itachi never went all out once. Not once.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 24, 2013)

Kakashi solos him in Scenario 2 but Scenario 1 is more of a coin flip, Itachi doesn't have the necessary chakra to maintain MS for extensive amounts of time and Kakashi will most like bait him to use it by using clone feints and substitutions. 

They'll probably both spend an inordinate amount of time analyzing each other, Itachi still doesn't have any non-MS related ninjutsu than can do damage whereas Kakashi can fight without relying on Kamui. When it comes to their MS's, Amaterasu/Kamui are implemented in the same manner.

Susano'o isn't a huge threat as Itachi hasn't really had any significant feats with it at all. His chakra has always been limiting his ability utilize a fully formed Susano'o, he can use Totsuka but again he'd be taking a chance on a clone and etc.

Kakashi's style of fighting trumps Itachi's, that's all there is too it. It's still going to be exceptionally difficult for either of them to get a set victory, which is why it's a coin-flip in scenario 1.


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## narutoish (Feb 24, 2013)

I don't see why kakashi would want to make eye contact with itachi, since he still hasn't shown any counter to tsukuyomi, which leaves him vulnerable to amaterasu(which is around as fast as kamui). As for kamui, I never felt like kakashi could finish anyone off with kamui just like that. First of all, he hasn't done it to any of his enemies (he didn't use it against deva path), and even if he uses kamui, itachi's clone feint could cost him lots of chakra and give away the surprise factor. Then there is the matter of whether kakashi can kamui itachi in susano.

So I would say itachi wins more times then not.


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## Fragile (Feb 24, 2013)

The responses so far in this thread give me the impression that this isn't a match between Itachi and Kakashi, but their fandoms. 

Anyway, I don't know. But I honestly am not ready to put Kakashi on Itachi's level yet despite having a ridiculously haxed jutsu that is Kamui. That is his only key to winning after all and he's not that much willing to use it unless the entire universe is dependent on it. Sure he's proficient in using Bunshin feints, but we also have to remember that Itachi is just as skilled with them (if we go back to his prior fights against Sasuke, Nagato and Kabuto). So  saying that Itachi gets defeated via bunshin feint + Kamui early in the match is not fair nor possible.

Honestly, it's kind of hard to evaluate this match by their feats (nor am I willing to debate them) since they're nearly equal in most areas such as Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Intelligence, etc. So I'll just imagine if this fight were to happen in the manga. If that'll be the case, I'll place my bets on Itachi ultimately coming out as the victor, anytime. Portrayal wise, he is the superior shinobi and Kakashi has yet to come close, let alone, top all the hype and regard that Itachi has received so far.


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2013)

Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Sutions to deal with Itachi's Katons and with their being a water source around Kakashi can do his larger scale Sution. Although Itachi can just copy Kakashi Sutions and use it to cancel Kakashi's Sution if Kakashi uses them for offensive. Kakashi also as Dotons such as  and Doryūheki.

Kakashi already knows about Tsukuyomi and had a little bout  without looking into his eyes so Kakashi likely won't fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him and with a sharingan Kakashi would likely break out of any bar Tsukuyomi which he won't fall for. Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi. Kakashi on the otherhand has successfully feinted Itachi(although he was only a 30 percent clone). With Kakashi's increase in speed overtime and him only getting tactically better and already dealing with Itachi's moves, Kakashi can handle base Itachi while in base for the most part and this isn't even mentioning the rest of base Kakashi's arsenal which could help him take out Itachi.

Now comes the part where it becomes a toss up. MS vs MS. Kakashi can deal with one of Itachi's MS jutsu aka Tsukuyomi but Ama on the other hand which as far as we know he doesn't have any knowledge about, would possible get hit on the first time around. Sure Kakashi can counter it by going underground or putting up a Doryūheki to block Itachi's sight to avoid being hit but without knowledge of Ama, I doubt Kakashi would randomly do such. On the flip side Itachi(as far as we know) has no knowledge that Kakashi has Kamui. Itachi hasn't shown the speed to be able to not get hit by it which likely could hit Itachi and be a damaging blow be it taking out a body part like he did against Deidara or be it using Kamui to warp up Itachi entirely like he did with Naruto. So it comes down to who hits who first with their MS jutsu.

When it comes to Susanoo, Kakashi is pretty screwed. He has no ninjutsu that can get past the Yata Mirror nor any jutsu strong enough to break through it. All he has is Kamui which will drain him when he uses it. Likewise Susanoo isn't something Itachi can keep up for long periods of time due to the drain he feels. Itachi was able to quickly cut off alot of Orochi's snake heads and his sword as good reach. Itachi can slice up Kakashi or seal him if Kakashi is pierced. Itachi has Yasaka no Magatama for some range attack but Kakashi could likely dodge it. And while Itachi can do all of this with his Susanoo, he may not be able to successfully do so in a fight depending on his chakra levels.

I feel that this is a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi and Itachi take each other out in one hit before Susanoo is brought out. Itachi would seem to have the advantage when full Susanoo comes into play but Kakashi might be able to outlast Itachi. Either way its a 50/50 shot here. Kakashi has gotten very stronger and is near if not on the same level as Itachi in the general area more or less.


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## Kaiser (Feb 25, 2013)

Pretty even battle in scenario1 i would say. Itachi is overall better but not by much and he is even sick. But since Kakashi has the advantage of knowledge, he won't try to make this fight last longer and try to warp Itachi right away(like he intended to do with Tobi) unlike Itachi who has no knowledge, so i favor him 

In scenario2, it's a stomp in Kakashi's favor. With Kyubi's shroud, he warps Bijuu size and has no problem in spaming his kamuis, it won't end well for Itachi who has no counter


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 25, 2013)

deathgod said:


> I brought up Kamui because theres a lot of people in this thread and others stating that kakashi can just one shot anyone with it. That means Obito can as well if true. Also how fast is it really, because Amaterasu is pretty fast as well.
> 
> Kisame, Nagato/Pain, Itachi all knew who he was (assumed he was Madara) and accepted him being really in charge. Its highly doubtful that they didn't know about his space time abilities. Moreso Itachi seeing as he and Madara destroyed the Uchiha if I recalled correctly.



*Tobi's Kamui is different from Kakashi's, he needs to touch the target for a good chance of warping it, he cannot open a dimensional rift where he wants to, he can only warp the target in front of him.

Kakashi's Kamui opens a dimensional rift where the target is, he can execute it from long range and it is seemingly faster than Tobi's Kamui considering even Tobi himself didn't see the warping process on Naruto's BM Kage Bunshin.

Tobi said he managed to keep a few secrets away from Itachi, I believe it is only logical to assume one of them was his Kamui. If Itachi knew about his Kamui, things could have went differently.*


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi can deal with Itachi's elemental jutsu. Kakashi has Sutions to deal with Itachi's Katons and with their being a water source around Kakashi can do his larger scale Sution. Although Itachi can just copy Kakashi Sutions and use it to cancel Kakashi's Sution if Kakashi uses them for offensive. Kakashi also as Dotons such as  and Doryūheki.
> 
> Kakashi already knows about Tsukuyomi and had a little bout  without looking into his eyes so Kakashi likely won't fall for any genjutsu that Itachi throws at him and with a sharingan Kakashi would likely break out of any bar Tsukuyomi which he won't fall for. Kakashi has already avoided one of Itachi's clone feints as well as react quickly against an exploding clone from Itachi. Kakashi on the otherhand has successfully feinted Itachi(although he was only a 30 percent clone). With Kakashi's increase in speed overtime and him only getting tactically better and already dealing with Itachi's moves, Kakashi can handle base Itachi while in base for the most part and this isn't even mentioning the rest of base Kakashi's arsenal which could help him take out Itachi.
> 
> ...



*If Kakashi could react to Susano'o arrows from about 15~20 meters, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to warp Amaterasu, as Amaterasu is clearly the slower attack.

War Arc Kakashi could warp Deidara's whole body if he was in Kazekage Rescue Arc Kakashi's place since he can execute Kamui much faster, in larger scale and more accurately.

I don't believe Itachi will opt for Amaterasu off the bat against Kakashi with no knowledge about his MS, so Kakashi should end this with Kamui off the bat.

Even if he wouldn't use it off the bat and Itachi would have uses Susano'o, I can't find any reason why Kamui wouldn't warp Itachi even if he's inside Susano'o. Kakashi can open the dimensional rift anywhere he want to, so if he wants to open a dimensional rift inside Susano'o where Itachi is, he may do so.

Sorry for the not-so-long reply. 
*


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> If Kakashi could react to Susano'o arrows from about 15~20 meters, there's no reason to believe he wouldn't be able to warp Amaterasu, as Amaterasu is clearly the slower attack.



Kakashi has no knowledge on Ama. Ama appears where the user look. If Itachi is looking at Kakashi and uses Ama, how will Kakashi warp it away when the likely result is that he will be hit?



> War Arc Kakashi could warp Deidara's whole body if he was in Kazekage Rescue Arc Kakashi's place since he can execute Kamui much faster, in larger scale and more accurately.
> 
> I don't believe Itachi will opt for Amaterasu off the bat against Kakashi with no knowledge about his MS, so Kakashi should end this with Kamui off the bat.



I agree that Kakashi has gotten better and Itachi wouldn't opt for Ama right away but I highly doubt Kakashi would resort to Kamui off the bat when he didn't do so against 6 Jin's in V2 that have a Sharingan+Rinnegan in each eye.



> Even if he wouldn't use it off the bat and Itachi would have uses Susano'o, I can't find any reason why Kamui wouldn't warp Itachi even if he's inside Susano'o. Kakashi can open the dimensional rift anywhere he want to, so if he wants to open a dimensional rift inside Susano'o where Itachi is, he may do so.
> 
> Sorry for the not-so-long reply.



You know what, I never even thought about this. This seems quite plausible as well, I like the way think sir.

No need to, I enjoy nice short replies more then long ones.


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## Larcher (Feb 25, 2013)

Dependent if Kakashi kamui enough of itches ms attacks until itachi runs out of chakra this could be a possibility as Kakashi has better stamina though I think he might catch Kakashi off before I've can even use kamui and he can use tsukuyomi and izanami so itachi high diff more times than not.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Kakashi has no knowledge on Ama. Ama appears where the user look. If Itachi is looking at Kakashi and uses Ama, how will Kakashi warp it away when the likely result is that he will be hit?



*It actually doesn't appear where the user looks, Ei managed to dodge it from close range, Sasuke managed to run away from it for a short amount of time.
Even the Hachibi could move his tentacle in order to avoid having his face burned.
So in conclusion i can't see how Kakashi wont be able to react to Amaterasu.*



> I agree that Kakashi has gotten better and Itachi wouldn't opt for Ama right away but I highly doubt Kakashi would resort to Kamui off the bat when he didn't do so against 6 Jin's in V2 that have a Sharingan+Rinnegan in each eye.



*I believe the circumstances are what makes the difference.
First, he knew Tobi could do something against his Kamui and S/T techniques in general, which is already enough to make Kakashi think again before using Kamui when Tobi is around.
Also, Kakashi knew that even if he manages to absorb one/two/three of the paths, there are still 5/4/3 of them left + Tobi, and Kamui drains quite a bit of his chakra, so it isn't such a good idea,.*



> You know what, I never even thought about this. This seems quite plausible as well, I like the way think sir.



*Thanks, nice to know.*


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> It actually doesn't appear where the user looks, Ei managed to dodge it from close range, Sasuke managed to run away from it for a short amount of time.
> Even the Hachibi could move his tentacle in order to avoid having his face burned.
> So in conclusion i can't see how Kakashi wont be able to react to Amaterasu.



But it does appear where the user looks. Sasuke was looking at said spot where A was and it popped up within his eye sight. I should rephrase what I said. I don't mean it appears where they look in the sense that if Itachi or Sasuke looks at something it pops up exactly right on the spot that they are looking at but its in the general line of sight on the user which makes it look like it appears on someone due to the speed of it. I don't think Kakashi could successfully pull it off in CQC but if Itachi did it from mid-long range then it seems plausible for Kakashi.



> I believe the circumstances are what makes the difference.
> First, he knew Tobi could do something against his Kamui and S/T techniques in general, which is already enough to make Kakashi think again before using Kamui when Tobi is around.
> Also, Kakashi knew that even if he manages to absorb one/two/three of the paths, there are still 5/4/3 of them left + Tobi, and Kamui drains quite a bit of his chakra, so it isn't such a good idea,.



Indeed circumstances would make the difference but Kakashi has never attempted to just Kamui anyone right off the bat besides Obito(who he thought was Madara). Not Deva path,not Sasuke,not Itachi the first time around,not Zabuza+company either. I just don't seem him opting out to use Kamui on Itachi from the start.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> But it does appear where the user looks. Sasuke was looking at said spot where A was and it popped up within his eye sight. I should rephrase what I said. I don't mean it appears where they look in the sense that if Itachi or Sasuke looks at something it pops up exactly right on the spot that they are looking at but its in the general line of sight on the user which makes it look like it appears on someone due to the speed of it. I don't think Kakashi could successfully pull it off in CQC but if Itachi did it from mid-long range then it seems plausible for Kakashi.
> 
> 
> 
> Indeed circumstances would make the difference but Kakashi has never attempted to just Kamui anyone right off the bat besides Obito(who he thought was Madara). Not Deva path,not Sasuke,not Itachi the first time around,not Zabuza+company either. I just don't seem him opting out to use Kamui on Itachi from the start.



*Well, if Itachi uses it right in front of him it's chances of hitting Kakashi are very high, however I can't see that happening here, there's no reason for Kakashi to fight Itachi using Taijutsu or standard Raikiri, as I said I see him executing Kamui pretty much off the bat or really early.

Deva Path was 100% protected by the plot since it was Naruto's job to kill it, Kakashi was capable of beating Deva with Kamui but for some reason he didn't use it, maybe one of the reasons was that he thought he could negate it with the Rinnegan or something else, but it was mostly Kishi's fault.

About Sasuke:
(1)
(1)

He couldn't use his MS/Kamui against Itachi and he revealed his MS for the first time nearly 20 chapters after his fight with Shonen Itachi which he didn't need to use Kamui against. (He was also much less proficient with the technique back then.)

Kakashi needed to conserve his chakra against the Mist Swordmen for later fights, he also didn't need to use Kamui against them and the mist makes it harder for him to see them, not to mention execute a perfect Kamui which will warp a Swordman's complete body.

It's all about plot+different circumstances, luckily in this battle he has no reason to hold back.*


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *Well, if Itachi uses it right in front of him it's chances of hitting Kakashi are very high, however I can't see that happening here, there's no reason for Kakashi to fight Itachi using Taijutsu or standard Raikiri, as I said I see him executing Kamui pretty much off the bat or really early.
> 
> Deva Path was 100% protected by the plot since it was Naruto's job to kill it, Kakashi was capable of beating Deva with Kamui but for some reason he didn't use it, maybe one of the reasons was that he thought he could negate it with the Rinnegan or something else, but it was mostly Kishi's fault.
> 
> ...



I can tell this won't go anywhere so we shall have to agree to disagree.


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## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> I can tell this won't go anywhere so we shall have to agree to disagree.



*You may be surprised I actually can be convinced if I find the other debater's reasonings good enough or if i'm proven wrong, but if that's what you wish i'm okay with that.

Have a good day. *


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2013)

CoockiesAndMilf said:


> *You may be surprised I actually can be convinced if I find the other debater's reasonings good enough or if i'm proven wrong, but if that's what you wish i'm okay with that.
> 
> Have a good day. *



Im sure you could, its just nothing I say would convince you otherwise. All I got is the fact that in the manga, Kakashi has never used it and can point out battles for poof. You on the otherhand can nicely counter it with reasons why you believe he didn't use it said situations which is logically sound. It'll likely just go around in circles with the same points being made but reword differently over time 

You too my good sir, I look forward to a round two soon


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## Goobtachi (Feb 25, 2013)

Wow, how is this even debatable?

Itachi has been portrayed by Kishi to be atop tier shinobi: top intelligence, top sharingan usage while Kakashi has not won a single battle alone in Part two.

And lol at those who say Kakashi can overcome Tsukiyomi, he doesn't even have uchiha blood so even with MS, he's not proficient enough...
Even more lol to those who say that Itachi  will fall to a Raiton bunshin, Itachi has his top genjutsu+Bunshin feints which are much better than Kakashi's...
Finally, those who bring Kamui GG bullshit should be ashamed of themselves: by their logic, Kakashi should be able to beat Hashirama and Madara: now think about how ridiculous this sound, and if you can find a solution for those two shinobis(especially madara) to overcome Kamui, then you'll also find a way for Itachi to beat it(hints, Kamui is chakra intensive, Kakashi doesn't want to waste his chakra, Itachi/madara have genjustu+binshin feints...).

Kakashi fans, use your brainz/


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## ~Kakashi~ (Feb 25, 2013)

If Kakashi has knowledge of how amaterasu works, it would be an interesting fight. He's shown he knows what it is, even though he says he's never seen it before. But others have shown that as well, such as Shee / also .

Kakashi also showed that he was , without ever having seen it. But without having knowledge of how it works, it wouldn't do him a ton of good. He only knows it's extremely dangerous.

That said, Kakashi has developed a counter for Tsukuyomi, and also witnessed the finger genjutsu that Naruto was put under, and given his sharingan, it's unlikely that such a genjutsu would work on Kakashi. He's both  stated and shown numerous times if he has complete knowledge of a technique, it will not work on him, such as: here, here, here and hinted that he had developed counters for each of the Paths of Pain's powers.

Kakashi and Itachi are practically equals in CQC combat, Kakashi has the upperhand in ninjutsu due to elemental advantage and sheer number(feats and hype wise), and Itachi has the upperhand in genjutsu, although Kakashi has seen his genjutsu and would be capable of countering it.

This ultimately would come down to a battle of the ridiculous OP techniques, and Itachi's are ultimately more dangerous thanks to Kakashi's likely lack of knowledge on how exactly Amaterasu works, and I'm not sure if kamui could warp susanoo as big as it is(or if it would just go through susanoo and warp Itachi out of it), but either way I don't see Kakashi making it out alive unless he decides to end it with kamui early.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 25, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Wow, how is this even debatable?
> 
> Itachi has been portrayed by Kishi to be atop tier shinobi: top intelligence, top sharingan usage while Kakashi has not won a single battle alone in Part two.



And Kakashi's not. There's not one person in the manga that hasn't said something good about Kakashi. He is the most intelligent person in the manga easily, and his sharingan usage is just as good as Itachi's.



> And lol at those who say Kakashi can overcome Tsukiyomi, he doesn't even have uchiha blood so even with MS, he's not proficient enough...



Databook says you don't need blood. Use some common sense and you can figure it out.That's the most stupid thing, It's not like the jutsu says,"oh he has Uchiha blood, it's a no go." 



> Even more lol to those who say that Itachi  will fall to a Raiton bunshin, Itachi has his top genjutsu+Bunshin feints which are much better than Kakashi's...



Kakashi's bunshin feinted Itachi twice, Itachi has never bunshin feinted Kakashi.



> Finally, those who bring Kamui GG bullshit should be ashamed of themselves: by their logic, Kakashi should be able to beat Hashirama and Madara: now think about how ridiculous this sound, and if you can find a solution for those two shinobis(especially madara) to overcome Kamui, then you'll also find a way for Itachi to beat it(hints, Kamui is chakra intensive, Kakashi doesn't want to waste his chakra, Itachi/madara have genjustu+binshin feints...).
> 
> Kakashi fans, use your brainz/



He can beat them with Kamui. They have no counter, well Madara has izanagi.


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## Goobtachi (Feb 25, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And Kakashi's not. There's not one person in the manga that hasn't said something good about Kakashi. He is the most intelligent person in the manga easily, and his sharingan usage is just as good as Itachi's.


No he's not, Itachi is far smarter and wiser than Kakashi...he's recieved more hype in this regard by other shinobi than Kakashi. And about the sharingan usage, yeah sure, Kakashi must be as proficient as Itachi, a real uchiha genius with actually two eyes instead of one...


IchLiebe said:


> Databook says you don't need blood. Use some common sense and you can figure it out.That's the most stupid thing, It's not like the jutsu says,"oh he has Uchiha blood, it's a no go."


Itachi said that  because Kakashi doesn't have uchiha blood and body, his sharingan usage isn't optimal...so, you're wrong.


IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi's bunshin feinted Itachi twice, Itachi has never bunshin feinted Kakashi.


Kakashi didn't notice the explosive bunshin at first.. and are you really counting the bunshin feint Kakashi did against a 30% Itachi who obviously didn't want to kill him, since you know, he was not really a bad guy.


IchLiebe said:


> He can beat them with Kamui. They have no counter, well Madara has izanagi.


Kakashi is smart enough not to go for Kamui unless he's sure it's not a bunshin, which is something he can't be sure of against a genjutsu+bunshin expert as Itachi. Besides, give some credit to Itachi, the moment he sees Kakashi's eye morphing to a MS, he' ll take some precaution.

Kakashi isn't in the same league as Itachi, the level of opponents they beat(well, kakashi hasn't beat anyone) isn't quite the same.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 25, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> No he's not, Itachi is far smarter and wiser than Kakashi...he's recieved more hype in this regard by other shinobi than Kakashi. And about the sharingan usage, yeah sure, Kakashi must be as proficient as Itachi, a real uchiha genius with actually two eyes instead of one...



No, Itachi is not. Kakashi is smarter by feats. Look at how Kakashi analyzed Deva's abilities, Obito's, and everything. He is knowledgeable about literally everything. Itachi has shit to Kakashi in this category.

Itachi world known for nothing. Kakashi world known as Sharingan Kakashi. Serious look at how they use it. Kakashi copies every jutsu, Itachi has copied one. And having two eyes means shit about using them properly.



> Itachi said that  because Kakashi doesn't have uchiha blood and body, his sharingan usage isn't optimal...so, you're wrong.



Blood isn't a requirement, he said that so Kakashi knew Sasuke would be the one to beat him. And his sharingan usage is greater than Itachi's. He uses it to copy jutsu's, genjutsu people, and have perfected his MS. Itachi has genjutsu, and perfected MS.



> Kakashi didn't notice the explosive bunshin at first.. and are you really counting the bunshin feint Kakashi did against a 30% Itachi who obviously didn't want to kill him, since you know, he was not really a bad guy.



And he still countered it so it wasn't a successful feint unlike Kakashi's. And just because he didn't want to kill him doesn't mean the feats can't be used. Itachi said he was tricked.

[quote\Kakashi is smart enough not to go for Kamui unless he's sure it's not a bunshin, which is something he can't be sure of against a genjutsu+bunshin expert as Itachi. Besides, give some credit to Itachi, the moment he sees Kakashi's eye morphing to a MS, he' ll take some precaution.[/quote]

And Kakashi won't use it till Ama or susanoo comes out and Itachi won't be a bunshin then. And Itachi won't see Kakashi's eye morphing.



> Kakashi isn't in the same league as Itachi, the level of opponents they beat(well, kakashi hasn't beat anyone) isn't quite the same.



Yeah, Kakashi is above Itachi. Kakashi is held back by Kishi because he can't one shot everyone, while Itachi constantly has to use his strongest jutsu's to just scrape by.


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## Seiji (Feb 25, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Databook says you don't need blood. Use some common sense and you can figure it out.That's the most stupid thing, It's not like the jutsu says,"oh he has Uchiha blood, it's a no go."





IchLiebe said:


> Blood isn't a requirement, he said that so Kakashi knew Sasuke would be the one to beat him.





> Databook 2 - Tsukuyomi:
> NINJUTSU; KEKKEI GENKAI; Tsukuyomi
> User: Uchiha Itachi
> Supplementary; Close range; Rank: none
> ...





Before you call something stupid, you might want to check your own facts first. But well, it's not like anything or anyone can convince you when it comes to Itachi anyways.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 25, 2013)

Siriυs said:


> Before you call something stupid, you might want to check your own facts first. But well, it's not like anything or anyone can convince you when it comes to Itachi anyways.



That's picture comments, where it talks about what the panel says. It has nothing to do with being fact.



Shichibukai said:


> This is a joke, right?



Two eyes doesn't mean he can use sharingan correctly. And Itachi scrapes by in his fights. Look at Kabuto fight, Itachi was manhandled.


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## Goobtachi (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> That's picture comments, where it talks about what the panel says. It has nothing to do with being fact.
> 
> 
> 
> Two eyes doesn't mean he can use sharingan correctly. And Itachi scrapes by in his fights. Look at Kabuto fight, Itachi was manhandled.



Well to be fair, Kakashi was manhandled in all his fights in part two.

-snip-


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## Rain (Feb 26, 2013)

Itachi with mid difficulty, unless state of mind is bloodlusted, in which case the fight ends in a mutual knock out.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Well to be fair, Kakashi was manhandled in all his fights in part two.
> 
> And go write a fanfic about how Kakashi can beat anyone with Kamui, there is a reason why Kakashi portrays him as a weak shinobi who loses to every good shinobi...unlike Itachi



Kakashi has never been manhandled. He puts up a fight and does amazing in every fight, even when he's handicapped. And Kishi far from portrays him as weak. When Tsunade came back to the village she was surpised Kakashi was beat by only 2 people, everyone in the manga thinks he's easily a hokage candidate, Nagato went out of his to kill one person in the village. He also only used 2 paths against one person, KAkashi. Kakashi is world known and feared for his skills. Itachi is just known as a clan killer. And the reason Kakashi loses is solely plot. He couldn't beat Kakuza because Naruto needed to use FRS, he couldn't beat Pain because Naruto had to. I know this concept sounds wierd to an Itachi fan because Itachi wins solely because of plot.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has never been manhandled. He puts up a fight and does amazing in every fight, even when he's handicapped. And Kishi far from portrays him as weak. When Tsunade came back to the village she was surpised Kakashi was beat by only 2 people, everyone in the manga thinks he's easily a hokage candidate, Nagato went out of his to kill one person in the village. He also only used 2 paths against one person, KAkashi. Kakashi is world known and feared for his skills. Itachi is just known as a clan killer. And the reason Kakashi loses is solely plot. He couldn't beat Kakuza because Naruto needed to use FRS, he couldn't beat Pain because Naruto had to. I know this concept sounds wierd to an Itachi fan because Itachi wins solely because of plot.



Which is why Itachi put him in the hospital for majority of part 1 and why even after Kakashi awakened his ms he still felt he needed naruto and sakura to fight Itachi?


It's called author portrayal, kishi portrays Itachi to be stronger then Kakashi, next time try facing the truth instead of blaming plot for your characters short comings.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Which is why Itachi put him in the hospital for majority of part 1 and why even after Kakashi awakened his ms he still felt he needed naruto and sakura to fight Itachi?



1 arc isn't majority. And? How long ago was that? Nagato felt like Jiraiya would have won had he known the secret but we know who would have won.



> It's called author portrayal, kishi portrays Itachi to be stronger then Kakashi, next time try facing the truth instead of blaming plot for your characters short comings.



And it means shit in the battledome. Plot holds Kakashi back and makes him lose because if it didn't then FRS wouldn't have been perfected, village wouldn't have been destroyed, Deva would have died before Naruto came back, Sasuke would be dead, etc. Itachi has plot pull shit out his ass.


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## Goobtachi (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi has never been manhandled. He puts up a fight and does amazing in every fight, even when he's handicapped. And Kishi far from portrays him as weak. When Tsunade came back to the village she was surpised Kakashi was beat by only 2 people, everyone in the manga thinks he's easily a hokage candidate, Nagato went out of his to kill one person in the village. He also only used 2 paths against one person, KAkashi. Kakashi is world known and feared for his skills. Itachi is just known as a clan killer. And the reason Kakashi loses is solely plot. He couldn't beat Kakuza because Naruto needed to use FRS, he couldn't beat Pain because Naruto had to. I know this concept sounds wierd to an Itachi fan because Itachi wins solely because of plot.



No, just no. This is Kinshi's manga and the plot is the only canon we got... he didn't say after Kakashi's mutiple losses that he was handicapped or something, he lost fair and square to shinobi who are much stronger than him. End of story..

-snip-


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> No, just no. This is Kinshi's manga and the plot is the only canon we got... he didn't say after Kakashi's mutiple losses that he was handicapped or something, he lost fair and square to shinobi who are much stronger than him. End of story.
> 
> You could always make a fanfic where Kakashi is the best shinobi and kamuis everyone, but guess what, nobody'd care.



He didn't lose fair and square. Asura path was beat and then plot makes him take the raikiri. Then when Deva uses the nail, Kakashi instead of warping Deva, warped the nail. Instead of him Kamui'ing Kakuza, Naruto stepped in. Kakashi could have won all those fights but plot is the reason he didn't. Because his MS is so hax, he can't use it. Itachi has to use MS and even then he got destroyed by Kabuto.

Basically, Kakashi has to babysit and can't use his arsenal.
Itachi gets EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto, etc as back up, and has shit added to his arsenal via asspull.


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## Goobtachi (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He didn't lose fair and square. Asura path was beat and then plot makes him take the raikiri. Then when Deva uses the nail, Kakashi instead of warping Deva, warped the nail. Instead of him Kamui'ing Kakuza, Naruto stepped in. Kakashi could have won all those fights but plot is the reason he didn't. Because his MS is so hax, he can't use it. Itachi has to use MS and even then he got destroyed by Kabuto.
> 
> Basically, Kakashi has to babysit and can't use his arsenal.
> Itachi gets EMS Sasuke, RM Naruto, etc as back up, and has shit added to his arsenal via asspull.



Plot device...good excuse to save your favorite character's face. But let's be seriosu for a second, the fact that he only become a character used to hype vilains (who pretty much destroy him) is a proof that he doesn't belong to the "strong" characters. whereas Itachi is receiving hype from all the major vilains: Kishi wants to imply something, and you're the only one who deosn't get it.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Plot device...good excuse to save your favorite character's face. But let's be seriosu for a second, the fact that he only become a character used to hype vilains (who pretty much destroy him) is a proof that he doesn't belong to the "strong" characters. whereas Itachi is receiving hype from all the major vilains: Kishi wants to imply something, and you're the only one who deosn't get it.



Kakashi has never been destroyed. He's put up a mid-high dif fight against everyone. And guess how you hype people? Have someone strong to hype them. Kakashi may be used to hype people but he's one of the strongest people in the manga. Itachi receives hype because Kishi has a boner for him and Kakashi still has more hype. He's hyped by everyone, hell he apparently even cut lighting. Didn't a MS jutsu for that shit like Itachi. And look at how strong Hashirama is, yet a Kamui would kill him. Hax don't care about how strong someone is. This is the battledome, where we use feats not portrayal.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Now you're trolling...



What's Itachi's hype? The same thing said over and over.


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## Seiji (Feb 26, 2013)

Goobtachi said:


> Now you're trolling...



Pretty much a common expression when you have to argue with someone in a thread where his most favorite character and his most despised one, are in it.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Siriυs said:


> Pretty much a common expression when you have to argue with someone in a thread where his most favorite character and his most despised one, are in it.



You don't know shit, I'm not even trolling. He's the one who's in the battledome saying that since Itachi is portrayed as stronger than he wins. I'm actually saying shit.


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## Remsengan (Feb 26, 2013)

People who take Itachi's statement about needing Uchiha blood literally have no idea about what context means.

P1 Itachi would have thought it impossible for a non-Uchiha to use MS.  A lot has changed since P1 including Kakashi's knowledge of Itachi's jutsu, while the reverse cannot be said.


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## Kai (Feb 26, 2013)

Itachi beats Kakashi with high difficulty in a classic, regular match as Kakashi will resort to Kamui for defense when he has to fight off both Amaterasu and Susano'o. His fatigue wears down his movements and increases his probability of receiving a life threatening hit while Itachi doesn't necessarily need to move because of Susano'o. Kakashi's limits have vastly improved since the Pain arc but not absurdly to the level where he can beat Itachi one on one. Still, because of Kakashi's endurance feats with Kamui, Itachi is going to be using large amounts of stamina to beat Kakashi.

Scenario 2 with Kurama's chakra: Those Kamui feats performed under Kurama's influence were so inflated that the forum thought Kishi just threw chakra capacities out the window. After spiking his chakra reserves, Kurama stated Kakashi could come back from Kamui (therefore use Kamui) whenever he wanted. Nothing in Itachi's arsenal has led me to believe he can stop this magnitude of space-time manipulation.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi beats Kakashi with high difficulty in a classic, regular match as Kakashi will resort to Kamui for defense when he has to fight off both Amaterasu and Susano'o. His fatigue wears down his movements and increases his probability of receiving a life threatening hit while Itachi doesn't necessarily need to move because of Susano'o. Kakashi's limits have vastly improved since the Pain arc but not absurdly to the level where he can beat Itachi one on one. Still, because of Kakashi's endurance feats with Kamui, Itachi is going to be using large amounts of stamina to beat Kakashi.



Kamui can be used through susanoo as genjutsu and amaterasu have been used through it. And in a game of stamina Itachi loses badly. He's like he was in the Sasuke fight so after one MS his reactions and speed drop, while Kakashi has shown not to be affected by it anymore.


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## Vergil642 (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Kamui can be used through susanoo as genjutsu and amaterasu have been used through it. And in a game of stamina Itachi loses badly. He's like he was in the Sasuke fight so after one MS his reactions and speed drop, while Kakashi has shown not to be affected by it anymore.



And Katons have been fired out of Susanoo. It protects the user, it doesn't just stop everything.

Pity Itachi's reactions and speed are still greater than Kakashi's even after a little drop.

But I digress, there's no point arguing with you here. You aren't even being amusing and there's a fairly clear consensus that ultimately, this comes down to whoever hits with Amaterasu or Kamui first and that could go either way.

Though Scenario 2 has Kakashi as the winner with a giant, Hachibi noming Kamui warping away Itachi, Susanoo and a large portion of the landscape just to be sure.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> And Katons have been fired out of Susanoo. It protects the user, it doesn't just stop everything.



Too bad kamui pops up wherever Kakashi wants, which will be in susanoo.



> Pity Itachi's reactions and speed are still greater than Kakashi's even after a little drop.



Highly doubt that, he couldn't dodge a rigged shuriken.


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Itachi has show superior reaction, quicker deduction and intellect, and sharper insight than Kakashi, who himself has great feats in these fields despite thta. It's been established that Susano'o is so overwhelming and fast, Kakashi needs Kamui just to avoid being skewered, let alone Amaterasu. He's at a disadvantage that Itachi doesn't face, which is the need to avoid eye-contact. As easily as Kakashi could snipe with Kamui, Itachi could do the exact same sniping with Amaterasu. Both are one shots coming from them, so it's moot. Itachi wins scenario 1 with mid-high difficulty. Unless Itachi can seal him in scenario 2, the fight won't last long for Kakashi to win.


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## Remsengan (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi has show superior reaction, quicker deduction and intellect, and sharper insight than Kakashi,



How is Itachi faster than Kakashi?  In CQC Kakashi vs Itachi-clone was an even match, and Itachi had to rely on genjutsu to bail himself out.  Itachi only realized he'd been feinted when a flanking attack was already in place. 

Its pretty clear that the intelligence and reactions of both fighters here are on an equal tier, and anything more specific than that is very debatable.



Jυstin said:


> It's been established that Susano'o is so overwhelming and fast, Kakashi needs Kamui just to avoid being skewered, let alone Amaterasu.



It's been established that _Sasuke's_ Susano'o has impressive speed.  Itachi's best speed feats with Susano'o are stabbing an motionless Orochimaru and an impaired cripple.

Despite that, Kakashi still managed to react to Susano'o arrows with Kamui, and his mastery over MS has only improved since then.



Jυstin said:


> He's at a disadvantage that Itachi doesn't face, which is the need to avoid eye-contact. As easily as Kakashi could snipe with Kamui, Itachi could do the exact same sniping with Amaterasu. Both are one shots coming from them, so it's moot.



Kakashi can just hit Itachi with a Kamui KO and then warp the flames away after he's won.  Ai fought several Madara clones and only fell to genjutsu after several hours when he was surrounded by MS users.


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## Shichibukai (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Highly doubt that, he couldn't dodge a rigged shuriken.


He was partially blind and dying from a disease, and despite all of that he dodged 3/4 of the shuriken.


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Don't listen to IchLiebe if he's going to bring in a fight in which Itachi was dying of illness and throwing the fight. Even Zetsu himself said that Itachi should have been able to dodge that easily, and that his movements in general were off, to the point of suspecting he'd suffered *severe* injuries prior to the fight. We now know what those conditions were.

It's not even a point worth countering. The manga already did that for us.

Obito (on Itachi to Sasuke): "He *let* you defeat him."



Remsengan said:


> How is Itachi faster than Kakashi?  In CQC Kakashi vs Itachi-clone was an even match, and Itachi had to rely on genjutsu to bail himself out.  Itachi only realized he'd been feinted when a flanking attack was already in place.
> 
> Its pretty clear that the intelligence and reactions of both fighters here are on an equal tier, and anything more specific than that is very debatable.



If we ignore Itachi's deductive skills and speed in the fight with Nagato, Bee, and Naruto, then yes, and if we assume that Itachi also normally stands still for the entirety of the fight and fires a single Katon while smiling at being obliterated by anyone but Sasuke.

Or, we could acknowledge that it took the combined effort of Kakashi and Naruto just to deal with a clone. That's never a good thing in the Naruto series to have trouble with a clone. I mean, fuck. People will say that VotE Naruto was about equal to VotE Sasuke, despite how _easily_  Sasuke was dispatching NUMEROUS clones of Naruto's. Beating clones is the equivalent to beating fodder, especially one that's only pretending to be your enemy.



> It's been established that _Sasuke's_ Susano'o has impressive speed.  Itachi's best speed feats with Susano'o are stabbing an motionless Orochimaru and an impaired cripple.
> 
> Despite that, Kakashi still managed to react to Susano'o arrows with Kamui, and his mastery over MS has only improved since then.



It's been established that on both occasions, the attack was even faster than the _reaction_ of said opponents (Kabuto's, in Nagato's case), which is pretty damn fast. There was no time to even attempt to dodge, and it cut Orochimaru off in mid sentence as he reacted in sheer surprise at the attack. We've even seen its speed in cutting Naruto and Bee free from Nagato before he could do anything, and we've seen how fast even the partial version of Itachi's Susano'o can attack and react. It's just Susano'o in general. It's fast.

Really? Outside of the boost from Kurama's influence, his use of Kamui seems the same to me (which is still impressive on Amaterasu's level).



> Kakashi can just hit Itachi with a Kamui KO and then warp the flames away after he's won.



I could easily say he can't. Amaterasu has been shown to burn insanely fast depending on the intent of the user (and usually coming from Itachi), so he'd already be dead by then. I don't remember Kakashi being able to use Kamui on himself that way outside of Kurama's chakra (if Kakashi has even shown to use Kamui on himself at all). If he can, he'd only transport himself into the Kamui dimension, still on fire, especially if he's _covered_ in the flames. I'm just not seeing the feats here.

This would also not be accounting for the onslaught of Susano'o in the meantime.



> Ai fought several Madara clones and only fell to genjutsu after several hours when he was surrounded by MS users.



A moot point unless you can show that Madara had _attempted_ to catch Ai in more than just the Genjutsu that he had no problem catching him in. Even so, Ai is not Kakashi nor is Madara Itachi. This point has no relation.


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## Remsengan (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> If we ignore Itachi's deductive skills and speed in the fight with Nagato, Bee, and Naruto, then yes, and if we assume that Itachi also normally stands still for the entirety of the fight and fires a single Katon while smiling at being obliterated by anyone but Sasuke.



Itachi showed nothing very impressive in the fight vs Nagato other than Koto+Dat Crow.  He basically cherry-picked while Naruto and Bee took up Nagato's(Kabuto's) attention.  He then deduced that "if we shoot shit at CT's core, we might blow it up".  Any shinobi with greater intelligence than Naruto and Bee would have at least tried that.




Jυstin said:


> Or, we could acknowledge that it took the combined effort of Kakashi and Naruto just to deal with a clone. That's never a good thing in the Naruto series to have trouble with a clone. I mean, fuck. People will say that VotE Naruto was about equal to VotE Sasuke, despite how _easily_  Sasuke was dispatching NUMEROUS clones of Naruto's. Beating clones is the equivalent to beating fodder, especially one that's only pretending to be your enemy.



That wasn't a normal clone though.  Shouten no Jutsu is a  that works until the clones chakra runs out.   Itachi would have at least fought hard enough to put up a show.  Saying he "never fought seriously" is a lousy argument...you can't give him power he's never shown.




Jυstin said:


> It's been established that on both occasions, the attack was even faster than the _reaction_ of said opponents (Kabuto's, in Nagato's case), which is pretty damn fast. There was no time to even attempt to dodge, and it cut Orochimaru off in mid sentence as he reacted in sheer surprise at the attack. We've even seen its speed in cutting Naruto and Bee free from Nagato before he could do anything, and we've seen how fast even the partial version of Itachi's Susano'o can attack and react. It's just Susano'o in general. It's fast.



It's not been established.  Orochimaru had _just_ taken over Sasuke and it's now implied that he has never been at full strength since the life force from his arms were sealed.  Kabuto's reaction speed was limited to using skills and movements that were not his through long distance chakra control.

Their Susano'o are different.  Fact.



Jυstin said:


> I could easily say he can't. Amaterasu has been shown to burn insanely fast depending on the intent of the user (and usually coming from Itachi), so he'd already be dead by then. I don't remember Kakashi being able to use Kamui on himself that way outside of Kurama's chakra (if Kakashi has even shown to use Kamui on himself at all). If he can, he'd only transport himself into the Kamui dimension, still on fire, especially if he's _covered_ in the flames. I'm just not seeing the feats here.



Depending on intent of the user?  Where is that stated?  

Kakashi used Kamui on himself without the Kurama's aid the first time.  If Obito can use this to remove Amaterasu, why can't Kakashi?




Jυstin said:


> A moot point unless you can show that Madara had _attempted_ to catch Ai in more than just the Genjutsu that he had no problem catching him in. Even so, Ai is not Kakashi nor is Madara Itachi. This point has no relation.



Why should I have to show something that happened in the manga?  Here it is again as a reminder.  Madara had to grab him while he was distracted, and then genjutsu him after he was held.  He had to setup the genjutsu.

The point goes to show that with knowledge of doujutsu you can fight without staring into the opponents eyes and not get caught.  Gai can do it, Ai can do it, Kabuto did it...Kakashi has already done it.  Why should I believe he can't do it now?


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Itachi showed nothing very impressive in the fight vs Nagato other than Koto+Dat Crow.  He basically cherry-picked while Naruto and Bee took up Nagato's(Kabuto's) attention.  He then deduced that "if we shoot shit at CT's core, we might blow it up".  Any shinobi with greater intelligence than Naruto and Bee would have at least tried that.
> 
> That wasn't a normal clone though.  Shouten no Jutsu is a  that works until the clones chakra runs out.   Itachi would have at least fought hard enough to put up a show.  Saying he "never fought seriously" is a lousy argument...you can't give him power he's never shown.



From seeing Naruto attack the cerberus once, he deduced that using Amaterasu was the best way to take it out. From seeing Bee try, and fail, to rescue Naruto from Nagato, once, he deduced the shared vision of Nagato and his summons, found their blind spots quickly, and disabled them. From just seeing how CT was behaving, within a few seconds, he deduced not only its weakness, but also the fact that its own gravitational pull would work against it. Even Kabuto praised Itachi's use of his simple weapon technique to disable Nagato's shared vision. Even Jiraiya had taken quite a while longer to figure out Nagato's shared vision. Itachi made analytical deductions on a level we only see from intelligent characters, like Shikamaru. Sasuke or Kakashi, but it was the speed in which he made these deductions.

He also had the perception and insight to plant a trap in Sasuke's eye, to react to Obito's Sharingan, because he suspected he would try to get to Sasuke after the fight, and suspected that he would try to get Sasuke's trust *specifically* by showing Sasuke his Sharingan, and he was right. Before that trap, though, he'd already set up another trap as a backup to the trap he hadn't even set up yet. He'd assumed Sasuke might find out the truth, which Sasuke did. He'd assumed Sasuke might want to attack the village in response, which he did. He'd assumed he would take his eyes to gain the EMS to do so, which again was right. He'd then assumed he would inevitably fight Naruto after doing all of the aforementioned things, which Sasuke declared he would do. Itachi's insight even postmortem is incredible, praised by more than one person. Even when Kabuto blinded and paralyzed Itachi and Sasuke, Itachi's perception quickly deduced that Kabuto would go for Sasuke over trying to rewrite Itachi's talisman, and cockblocked Kabuto while Sasuke stood helpless (and Sasuke is intelligent, and comparable to Kaksahi in power).

The only difference I've seen between the two is that Shadow Clones have 50% chakra, and Shouten Clones have 30%. I'd thought Shadow Clones were described as perfect copies. The thing is that Itachi didn't fight hard enough to put up a show, despite the fact that we've seen hum do much more. He did not even move his feet. I'm giving him power he's shown in other fights, which he didn't even attempt vs Kakashi and Naruto. His Shouten feats were literally his worst feats. Even Part 1 Itachi, before busting out Tsukuyomi, was more tactical and maneuvered. Shouten Itachi literally shot one fireball, dodged an uppercut, and threw a punch while using an obvious Genjutsu. We've seen that in terms of mobility, perception, and Jutsu synergy, he is better than this. The only thing I gathered from the Shouten was that Itachi could cast Genjutsu just by pointing at someone, which is something Kaksahi would also have to deal with, even if he could avoid eye-contact.

By the way, it wasn't just chakra that was limited, but also their strength. Kisame listed "strength" as a separate item on the list of things limited by the jutsu. Shouten was so bad I literally made a direct comparison between Shouten Itachi and Genin Sasuke during the bell test, in which case Genin Sasuke outperformed Shouten Itachi. Shouten doesn't compare to the real Itachi. Not even close. Though part of this could be attributed to the fact that Itachi was, in fact. on their side. People even suspected it when he grinned then.



> It's not been established.  Orochimaru had _just_ taken over Sasuke and it's now implied that he has never been at full strength since the life force from his arms were sealed.  Kabuto's reaction speed was limited to using skills and movements that were not his through long distance chakra control.
> 
> Their Susano'o are different.  Fact.



That doesn't escape the fact that 7 of his eight Hydra heads had been quickly decapitated (snakes snap their heads FAST), and Orochimaru was more than mobile via the remaining head he'd emerged from, which showed to be _very_ mobile and very fast. It does not escape that Susano'o struck him before he even realized; fast enough to cut him off in mid-sentence. He didn't have time to show _any_ kind of reaction other than surprise after the fact.

Kabuto knew about and had already used Nagato's Shinra Tensei and Preta Path ability, as well as his other abilities. This is no excuse. He simply lacked reaction with using them.

And like I said, Itachi's Susano'o has shown similar speed when he and Sasuke fought Kabuto. His partial arms came out very fast. It's still difficult to deal with, even if Kakashi can avoid being blitzed.



> Depending on intent of the user?  Where is that stated?
> 
> Kakashi used Kamui on himself without the Kurama's aid the first time.  If Obito can use this to remove Amaterasu, why can't Kakashi?



It means focus of the eyes of the user. We've seen Amaterasu burn things fast before. The connection people have seemed to have made is things actively focused on get burnt fast, while things that get caught on fire as a side-effect burn slower. We can chalk this down to plot, though, which does not exist in the Battledome. Amaterasu has shown the capacity to burn fast.

I'm not sure what's going on in that scan. Did Kakashi transport himself? If so, how would that prevent the flames from traveling with him, if he's already caught on fire? Wouldn't he have to use them on just the flames, which would be covering his body? Also, Obito did not avoid Amaterasu with Kamui. We see the flames ignite ON him and travel with him as he stumbles back, meaning the flames hit him. There was no visible damage, though, leading people to believe he used Mokuton regen, the same way he regenerated the same right arm (the one grafted on) when he ripped it off when he was engaging Danzou's henchmen.



> Why should I have to show something that happened in the manga?  Here it is again as a reminder.  Madara had to grab him while he was distracted, and then genjutsu him after he was held.  He had to setup the genjutsu.
> 
> The point goes to show that with knowledge of doujutsu you can fight without staring into the opponents eyes and not get caught.  Gai can do it, Ai can do it, Kabuto did it...Kakashi has already done it.  Why should I believe he can't do it now?



I'm asking where Madara attempted to trap him and fail otherwise. We only see him attempt to trap Ai in Genjutsu once, and succeed. For your point to have validity, you'd have to give me reason to believe that Madara even tried to catch him in more than just that Genjutsu. Since you're suggesting Ai was able to avoid it throughout the rest of the fight, that requires Madara to actually have been trying to use it on him that whole time. Otherwise, I could say he wasn't caught for lack of Madara trying. I mean, Madara didn't catch a lot of people in Genjutsu, but most people would tell you "When did he try?".

The only ones explicitly stated to be able to do this are Kabuto and Gai. Gai had trained himself to be able to fight without making eye-contact (this requires training since fighting without avoiding eye-contact is very hard, as you do it a lot without knowing it and rely on it a lot). If simply avoiding eye-contact were that easy, Kabuto wouldn't have made it a point to cover his eyes. It's difficult. Even though Bee knew about Sharingan Genjutsu, he still fell for Itachi's Genjutsu. Avoiding eye-contact is still disadvantageous, even if one is capable of doing it.

My point was not that Kakashi couldn't do it (though how well he could is in question), but that it's something Kakashi has to worry about, that Itachi does not.


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## Remsengan (Feb 26, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> From seeing Naruto attack the cerberus once, he deduced that using Amaterasu was the best way to take it out. From seeing Bee try, and fail, to rescue Naruto from Nagato, once, he deduced the shared vision of Nagato and his summons, found their blind spots quickly, and disabled them. From just seeing how CT was behaving, within a few seconds, he deduced not only its weakness, but also the fact that its own gravitational pull would work against it. Even Kabuto praised Itachi's use of his simple weapon technique to disable Nagato's shared vision. Even Jiraiya had taken quite a while longer to figure out Nagato's shared vision. Itachi made analytical deductions on a level we only see from intelligent characters, like Shikamaru. Sasuke or Kakashi, but it was the speed in which he made these deductions.



Or he had knowledge on Nagato from being an Akatsuki member for several years...with the added luxury of being able to casually observer the scenario while Naruto and Bee took the front lines.  But your version sounds so much more *exciting*, so I guess I see the appeal.



Jυstin said:


> He also had the perception and insight to plant a trap in Sasuke's eye, to react to Obito's Sharingan, because he suspected he would try to get to Sasuke after the fight, and suspected that he would try to get Sasuke's trust *specifically* by showing Sasuke his Sharingan, and he was right. Before that trap, though, he'd already set up another trap as a backup to the trap he hadn't even set up yet. He'd assumed Sasuke might find out the truth, which Sasuke did. He'd assumed Sasuke might want to attack the village in response, which he did. He'd assumed he would take his eyes to gain the EMS to do so, which again was right. He'd then assumed he would inevitably fight Naruto after doing all of the aforementioned things, which Sasuke declared he would do. Itachi's insight even postmortem is incredible, praised by more than one person. Even when Kabuto blinded and paralyzed Itachi and Sasuke, Itachi's perception quickly deduced that Kabuto would go for Sasuke over trying to rewrite Itachi's talisman, and cockblocked Kabuto while Sasuke stood helpless (and Sasuke is intelligent, and comparable to Kaksahi in power).



Lemme get this straight.  He fucks up his brother to the point of mental breakdown, lays a Ama trap that fails, predicts that Sasuke will go on an insane rampage(which is obvious considering the mental fuck and being raised by Orochimaru and Obito), fails to land Koto as intended, and then ultimately fails to end Edo Tensei.  Itachi has never been completely successful at anything.  Orochimaru has turned out to be a better role model.




Jυstin said:


> The only difference I've seen between the two is that Shadow Clones have 50% chakra, and Shouten Clones have 30%. I'd thought Shadow Clones were described as perfect copies. The thing is that Itachi didn't fight hard enough to put up a show, despite the fact that we've seen hum do much more. He did not even move his feet. I'm giving him power he's shown in other fights, which he didn't even attempt vs Kakashi and Naruto. His Shouten feats were literally his worst feats. Even Part 1 Itachi, before busting out Tsukuyomi, was more tactical and maneuvered. Shouten Itachi literally shot one fireball, dodged an uppercut, and threw a punch while using an obvious Genjutsu. We've seen that in terms of mobility, perception, and Jutsu synergy, he is better than this. The only thing I gathered from the Shouten was that Itachi could cast Genjutsu just by pointing at someone, which is something Kaksahi would also have to deal with, even if he could avoid eye-contact.



The difference is how the techniques work.  While the chakra from a shouten-clone is more limited, it can use abilities exactly the same as the user.  Plus, Itachi had direct control of the clone.  Plus, the clones use real bodies as a base.  Different techniques, different clones.




Jυstin said:


> That doesn't escape the fact that 7 of his eight Hydra heads had been quickly decapitated (snakes snap their heads FAST), and Orochimaru was more than mobile via the remaining head he'd emerged from, which showed to be _very_ mobile and very fast. It does not escape that Susano'o struck him before he even realized; fast enough to cut him off in mid-sentence. He didn't have time to show _any_ kind of reaction other than surprise after the fact.



Your making up feats for Hydra-mode.  Yamata no Orochi has no speed feats whatsoever.  Neither does Orochimaru.



Jυstin said:


> Kabuto knew about and had already used Nagato's Shinra Tensei and Preta Path ability, as well as his other abilities. This is no excuse. He simply lacked reaction with using them.



Just because Kabuto has used the moves does not mean he could apply them like Nagato would if he were in control.

-snip-


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> He was partially blind and dying from a disease, and despite all of that he dodged 3/4 of the shuriken.



And still got hit. He's the same as he was in that fight.



Jυstin said:


> Don't listen to IchLiebe if he's going to bring in a fight in which Itachi was dying of illness and throwing the fight. Even Zetsu himself said that Itachi should have been able to dodge that easily, and that his movements in general were off, to the point of suspecting he'd suffered *severe* injuries prior to the fight. We now know what those conditions were.
> 
> It's not even a point worth countering. The manga already did that for us.
> 
> Obito (on Itachi to Sasuke): "He *let* you defeat him."



Go read the OP because you don't even know the fucking conditions. . As he was before he fought Hebi which is dying of illness. So how about you try to listen to what I have to say, because it actually follows the conditions, not what I want. I guess you countered my point though didn't you, o wait. No, you didn't. Know your shit before you post.


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## Shichibukai (Feb 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> And still got hit. He's the same as he was in that fight.
> 
> 
> 
> Go read the OP because you don't even know the fucking conditions. . As he was before he fought Hebi which is dying of illness. So how about you try to listen to what I have to say, because it actually follows the conditions, not what I want. I guess you countered my point though didn't you, o wait. No, you didn't. Know your shit before you post.


I was under the impression that meant he wasn't dying or partially blind, but I'll admit to my fault. He still casually blitzed Hebi Sasuke and reacted to RM Naruto and Bee. I don't recall speed or reaction speed feats that are one par with those for Kakashi.

-snip-


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## IchLiebe (Feb 26, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> I was under the impression that meant he wasn't dying or partially blind, but I'll admit to my fault. He still casually blitzed Hebi Sasuke and reacted to RM Naruto and Bee. I don't recall speed or reaction speed feats that are one par with those for Kakashi.



He only blitzed him in a genjutsu so it's not a feat. Naruto was focusing on the conversation. Kakashi reacted to susanoo arrows, kept up with v2 jins, and some more. He isn't going to be blitzed.


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## Jυstin (Feb 26, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Or he had knowledge on Nagato from being an Akatsuki member for several years...with the added luxury of being able to casually observer the scenario while Naruto and Bee took the front lines.  But your version sounds so much more *exciting*, so I guess I see the appeal.



Your point is supposition. No clue if Itachi had pre-existing knowledge of the shared vision. But, Itachi was involved in a fight where it was used on Bee, and it's not beyond his analytical prowess. It doesn't matter how Itachi observed it. He managed to find their blind spots and attack from them, so the feat could be recreated with a clone as bait. It doesn't matter, though.



> Lemme get this straight.  He fucks up his brother to the point of mental breakdown, lays a Ama trap that fails, predicts that Sasuke will go on an insane rampage(which is obvious considering the mental fuck and being raised by Orochimaru and Obito), fails to land Koto as intended, and then ultimately fails to end Edo Tensei.  Itachi has never been completely successful at anything.  Orochimaru has turned out to be a better role model.



Um, Itachi did end Edo Tensei. Only Madara remained because he knew the seal to release it (this was _Kabuto's_ fuck up). Your irrational hatred for Itachi is evident in this post, but it doesn't counter the points I made. He knew Obito might try to get to Sasuke, and that he might try to get Sasuke's trust by showing him his Sharingan. The trap failed, but Itachi was correct with all of his assumptions. Kotoamatsukami wasn't used on Sasuke (though it worked out in the end), but Itachi was right that Sasuke might find out the truth and want to destroy Konoha. He was right that he would take his eyes for the EMS to do so. And he was right that Sasuke would face Naruto in the process. This is the extent of Itachi's insight. No one, NO ONE accounted for Kabuto using massive Edo Tensei. There were many contingencies, but for Itachi's insight to stretch that far into the future, and to happen as he'd prepared for, it's quite a feat. He was not wrong with any of his predictions via insight.

And even he knew the Amaterasu trap might fail. That was the whole reason for the Kotoamatsukami trap. The only contingency was him being revived by Edo Tensei (otherwise it would have gone off without a hitch). But he still managed to use that to pretty much save everyone's asses. The situation would be much worse if the other Edo Tensei were running around. But I digress. His thinking ahead was spot on.



> The difference is how the techniques work.  While the chakra from a shouten-clone is more limited, it can use abilities exactly the same as the user.  Plus, Itachi had direct control of the clone.  Plus, the clones use real bodies as a base.  Different techniques, different clones.



I've never known Shadow Clones to not be able to use the same abilities as well. Hell, Kisame's Water Clones all possessed his _unique_ Samahada. The user also has direct control of the Shadow Clones in the sense that each clone _is_ the user. Same personality and everything. Clones are made from different bases. It could be argued that possibly Shouten clones can take more hits, but we've only seen Itachi's Shouten clone take one hit, while we've seen Shadow Clones take multiple hits before.

Really, it doesn't seem much different in its actual practice. The only one who seemed intent on crushing their opponents was Kisame. Compared to what we know and have seen that Itachi's capable of, he didn't even try.



> Your making up feats for Hydra-mode.  Yamata no Orochi has no speed feats whatsoever.  Neither does Orochimaru.



Speed doesn't matter if one cannot even _react_ before the fact hits them. The Yamata no Jutsu does have feats. We saw it attack Susano'o. Its heads are not immobile. It's stated to be Orochimaru's strongest technique. He was completely blitzed, while still talking, before realizing he'd even been stabbed. He could have been fast as lightning (which Itachi reacted to) and it wouldn't matter since the sword pierced him before he realized what hit him.



> Just because Kabuto has used the moves does not mean he could apply them like Nagato would if he were in control.



My point is that it was still too fast for Kabuto to react with the moves he knew he had at his disposal.



> I'd continue but I just realized this debate is pointless. You're giving Itachi feats he's never shown and exaggerating events. I'm not going to nit-pick your fan fiction.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 27, 2013)

This scan over here seemed to imply Kakashi let Itachi know he had achieved mangekyou sharingan.[1].

Itachi does use clones frequently, as you can see in this catalog of clone feats I made in another thread.

*Spoiler*: __ 





> Itachi vs kakashi ,Kurenai :  Genjutsu > *Exploding Clone*
> Itachi vs Jiraiya : -
> Itachi vs Kakashi,Naruto,Sakura,Chiyo:  *Genjutsu clone*
> Itachi vs Orochimaru : -
> ...






Given his knowledge on Kakashi, I do find it likely he would swap himself out earlier. Itachi knows that mangekyou jutsu are deadly, and it is unlikely he would risk himself without knowing what he is up against first.

Kakashi already knows Itachi is a mangekyou user, though he doesn't have in depth knowledge on all his techniques(just Tsukiyomi). Hence, I think its likely Kakashi would also swap himself with a clone.

It is honestly a lot of trickery to follow, but I don't think either of them would show up until a mangekyou technique is utilized. 

They do the same things IC but Itachi just has a lot more fire power imo mainly due to his mangekyou techniques.


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## Remsengan (Feb 27, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Your point is supposition. No clue if Itachi had pre-existing knowledge of the shared vision. But, Itachi was involved in a fight where it was used on Bee, and it's not beyond his analytical prowess. It doesn't matter how Itachi observed it. He managed to find their blind spots and attack from them, so the feat could be recreated with a clone as bait. It doesn't matter, though.



Your "retelling" of the fight is just as much supposition as mine.  At the very least we _know_ Itachi had been gathering information on Akatsuki and we _know_ that Naruto and Bee rushed Nagato while Itachi was free to operate in the background.  

I'm not saying he's without analytic skills.  My point is that your frame of reference is a fight whereas he had top-tier backup.  And, that backup is composed of 2 of the most powerful, if not stupid, characters in the manga.  Of course he is going to be making the tactical decisions when his companions are Naruto and Bee.

However, Kakashi isn't nearly as dense and has displayed just as much, if not more, intelligence.  





Jυstin said:


> Um, Itachi did end Edo Tensei. Only Madara remained because he knew the seal to release it (this was _Kabuto's_ fuck up).



All the other relevant Edo's were already sealed.  Kishi made it clear that the Gokage desperately needed Edo Madara out of the picture and _that_ was the biggest factor for ending Edo Tensei.




Jυstin said:


> Your irrational hatred for Itachi is evident in this post, but it doesn't counter the points I made.



You weren't making points, you were literally praising Itachi.  I don't hate Itachi at all.  In fact, aside from being a Mary Sue, Itachi is one of the most involving characters in the manga.  What I hate is the wankers that believe everything he does is god-tier.  

The best part about Itachi is about how he did his best to fix a broken world and, despite failing on multiple accounts, kept trying to redeem it and himself along with it.  Kishi made a point when Itachi was saying how much he failed by trying to do everything by himself.

His final moments in the manga were trying to fix his mistakes, and _that's_ what makes him a decent character.  Not this god/king Itachifan wankfest fiction that gets thrown around.




Jυstin said:


> I've never known Shadow Clones to not be able to use the same abilities as well. Hell, Kisame's Water Clones all possessed his _unique_ Samahada. The user also has direct control of the Shadow Clones in the sense that each clone _is_ the user. Same personality and everything. Clones are made from different bases. It could be argued that possibly Shouten clones can take more hits, but we've only seen Itachi's Shouten clone take one hit, while we've seen Shadow Clones take multiple hits before.



So your original point was that Clones are weaksauce, but  your description is that they more or less have the same ability the original, with the possible bonus of a Shouten clone having added durability over a KB.  

In other words, fighting shouten-Itachi is more or less like fighting real Itachi.



Jυstin said:


> Really, it doesn't seem much different in its actual practice. The only one who seemed intent on crushing their opponents was Kisame. Compared to what we know and have seen that Itachi's capable of, he didn't even try.



Neither opponent went full out in that fight.  The fight didn't progress to a point where they had to.



Jυstin said:


> Speed doesn't matter if one cannot even _react_ before the fact hits them. The Yamata no Jutsu does have feats. We saw it attack Susano'o. Its heads are not immobile. It's stated to be Orochimaru's strongest technique. He was completely blitzed, while still talking, before realizing he'd even been stabbed. He could have been fast as lightning (which Itachi reacted to) and it wouldn't matter since the sword pierced him before he realized what hit him.



Attacking isn't a speed feat.  Whoever said it was Oro's strongest technique clearly wasn't accounting for Edo Tensei.  Yamata is basically featless other than it's a big snake with many heads.  Manda has more feats.




Jυstin said:


> My point is that it was still too fast for Kabuto to react with the moves he knew he had at his disposal.



Correct.  Totsuka moved too fast for Kabuto to react with his remote-controlled cripple standing in front of a dust cloud.


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## Shichibukai (Feb 27, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He only blitzed him in a genjutsu so it's not a feat. Naruto was focusing on the conversation. Kakashi reacted to susanoo arrows, kept up with v2 jins, and some more. He isn't going to be blitzed.


I don't really see how that makes a difference considering Sasuke had him in one of his own, but I'll concede.

He activated an eye jutsu.. I'd hardly consider that reacting to it. And jins?


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## IchLiebe (Feb 27, 2013)

Shichibukai said:


> I don't really see how that makes a difference considering Sasuke had him in one of his own, but I'll concede.
> 
> He activated an eye jutsu.. I'd hardly consider that reacting to it. And jins?



Sasuke managed to blitz an Itachi clone so it is a difference, but you conceded so.

Reacting means he he did something. He did. And the jins in Obito and his 6 paths.


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## Jυstin (Feb 27, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> Your "retelling" of the fight is just as much supposition as mine.  At the very least we _know_ Itachi had been gathering information on Akatsuki and we _know_ that Naruto and Bee rushed Nagato while Itachi was free to operate in the background.
> 
> I'm not saying he's without analytic skills.  My point is that your frame of reference is a fight whereas he had top-tier backup.  And, that backup is composed of 2 of the most powerful, if not stupid, characters in the manga.  Of course he is going to be making the tactical decisions when his companions are Naruto and Bee.
> 
> However, Kakashi isn't nearly as dense and has displayed just as much, if not more, intelligence.



On the point of backup, Kakashi has almost always (if not always) been in a group when displaying his analytical skills, or pre-existing knowledge. Nagato was the one who attacked, actually. You see, Nagato was focusing on _Naruto_ by that time. Bee and Itachi were out of the picture. Bee failed trying to rescue Naruto while Itachi succeeded. Itachi observes and plans, and could have easily recreated the backup with clones (for analyzing). Really, Naruto and Bee weren't much backup. They didn't do a thing to Nagato, except help destroy CT. Before that, they were _completely_ helpless and at Nagato's mercy. Simply being a distraction doesn't justify much as "needed backup" when that can be accomplished with clone feints.

I included Kakashi in the top bracket of intelligence. He makes brilliant deductions. Itachi just makes quicker ones, and the shared vision isn't the only one I'm talking about. Jiraiya was also smart enough to figure a way around the shared vision, but Itachi was much quicker.



> All the other relevant Edo's were already sealed.  Kishi made it clear that the Gokage desperately needed Edo Madara out of the picture and _that_ was the biggest factor for ending Edo Tensei.



There were still quite a few roaming free though. Fact is Itachi succeeded in ending the jutsu. Kabuto messed up by not counting for the possibility of someone being able to free themselves from the jutsu. Madara scolded the user of Edo Tensei for "misusing forbidden jutsu".



> You weren't making points, you were literally praising Itachi.  I don't hate Itachi at all.  In fact, aside from being a Mary Sue, Itachi is one of the most involving characters in the manga.  What I hate is the wankers that believe everything he does is god-tier.
> 
> The best part about Itachi is about how he did his best to fix a broken world and, despite failing on multiple accounts, kept trying to redeem it and himself along with it.  Kishi made a point when Itachi was saying how much he failed by trying to do everything by himself.
> 
> His final moments in the manga were trying to fix his mistakes, and _that's_ what makes him a decent character.  Not this god/king Itachifan wankfest fiction that gets thrown around.



Like it or not, Itachi is one of the highest tiers characters in the story. He's not the highest, but he's up there. Kishi constantly has him praised by highly respected characters. He has powerful characters admitting inferiority to him. He's constantly getting new feats, both in power, intelligence, and insight. Kishi has portrayed him looking god-like and sitting on a throne. He _never_ makes Itachi look bad in a fight (unless he's purposely taking hits or losing) and always has him on top of things and with the answers. It's because of this that his portrayal, especially in combat, is above Kakashi's (especially his fight with Obito). And he's constantly put up against high tier opponents whom he is shown dispatching quickly and near effortlessly (or without any risk to himself). It's to the point that when people see Itachi enter a fight with someone, they already know which side is going to win, and generally how quickly. Kishi seems to be wanking Itachi hard, but even Itachi is not without mistakes.

However, I was not blindly praising him. He was right in his prediction that Obito would try to get to Sasuke. He was right in his prediction that he would try to gain Sasuke's trust, and that he would specifically show Sasuke his Sharingan to do it. He was right that Obito might somehow survive the trap, and that Sasuke might find out the truth, and decide to attack Konoha because of it. He was right that Sasuke would take Itachi's eyes to further this goal. He was right that Sasuke would inevitably fight Naruto in the process. That's why he set up those traps with those specific triggers. He explained this much.

But contingencies existed. Obito survived the trap (which Itachi pre-planned for as well). He was resurrected by Edo Tensei and made to fight Naruto, triggering Kotoamatsukami early (which worked out in the end, making me wonder why he set the Koto trap to react to _his_ Sharingan and not Sasuke's). He didn't see _that_ coming, but otherwise, he was right. It's hard pre-planning traps postmortem (after death). Itachi's insight has been praised so many times (including in the Kabuto fight). He holds so much information, and knows and has figured out things people find unbelievable that he knows (to the point of calling him a Sue). Kakashi is by no means an unintelligent person. I just think Itachi's shown he's beyond that.



> So your original point was that Clones are weaksauce, but  your description is that they more or less have the same ability the original, with the possible bonus of a Shouten clone having added durability over a KB.
> 
> In other words, fighting shouten-Itachi is more or less like fighting real Itachi.



I also pointed out why that's false. Sasuke and Naruto were about even in the VotE fight, but Sasuke was picking off his clones as if he were 100 times stronger. Clones are fodder. Sasuke blitzed Itachi's clone in the cave, but could not do so to the real Itachi (who was in fact deathly sick, with poor eyesight, and letting Sasuke win no less). It's the same case here. Itachi's intent also comes into play. He didn't have the same intent to crush his opponents that Kisame did. You can even tell by the way Itachi fought. We know he has better feats and capabilities than that. Itachi's seen through more clever tricks than a simple Shadow Clone feint. He's displayed better use of Ninjutsu. Against Naruto and Bee, he fired a fireball and Shunshen'd towards them, engaging in fast-paced Taijutsu where he wasn't touched. He got around Bee and avoided his counter, while unleashing a counter at the exact same time, so fast that Bee could not dodge it _while_ casting Genjutsu in the middle of the exchange. As a Shouten, he shot a fireball and just stood there, unable to detect with his Sharingan when Kakashi created a Shadow Clone, while just dodging Kakashi's uppercut and immediately going for a grapple Genjutsu. That's not Itachi's style.

Funny thing is, even Kakashi noticed something was off with Itachi by the way he was fighting. I also, from what I've seen from Itachi, couldn't see that simple grapple holding him so easily, but then, Kisame did say their strength was cut as well. Shouten is just not like the real thing. Kakashi _and_ Naruto defeating an Itachi clone holds as much credence as Sasuke blitzing an Itachi clone, Sasuke defeating numerous Naruto clones easily, or any other instance a clone is taken out far more easily than the creator (which is always). I shouldn't even have to point out how many Zabuza clones that *GENIN* Sasuke dispatched...

Also I pointed out that Shadow Clones have been shown to take multiple hits as well.



> Neither opponent went full out in that fight.  The fight didn't progress to a point where they had to.



The point is that normally the fight _should_ have progressed to such a point if the other side were being serious. It did not. It's not about going full-out and using high level jutsu. Itachi's whole style was off, to the point of Kakashi being able to notice something being off.



> Attacking isn't a speed feat.  Whoever said it was Oro's strongest technique clearly wasn't accounting for Edo Tensei.  Yamata is basically featless other than it's a big snake with many heads.  Manda has more feats.



It was stated to be his strongest technique. As in, the technique itself. Edo Tensei has the highest potential, but Yamata no Jutsu itself is his strongest Jutsu. It possesses some impressive feats, but was "cut" short since it was dealing with Susano'o. And of course attacking is a speed feat when we're discussing *attacking speed*. Orochimaru was literally cut off in mid-sentence from the sheer speed of the attack, saying, "I will take his body for my own, and defeat-" *stab* "-you?", his last word being turned into a question rather than a declaration like he'd intended due to being dumfounded at what just happened. It struck him between "defeat" and "you". That's a good definition for speed.

Do not delude yourself. Susano'o attacks fast. It whipped out its Totsuka sword and severed one of Orochimaru's Hydra heads _*AFTER it was in mid strike*_, deflecting its other heads with its shield while severing the heads before they could make any kind of reaction, and stabbed Orochimaru in mid-sentence before he could even realize it. Itachi's was the first to show this, and it's held true for Sasuke and Madara as well. It was even able to whip out fast vs Kabuto. It's more than fast enough to put on lots of pressure.



> Correct.  Totsuka moved too fast for Kabuto to react with his remote-controlled cripple standing in front of a dust cloud.



You keep bringing up "remote-controlled" as if there's a delay to it or something, when it's never been a problem for Kabuto before. Hell iIrc he remote-controlled multiple Edo's at once before. Point is, it was beyond his ability to react, and beyond Orochimaru's as well.


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 27, 2013)

What difference does speed matter in this match-up? Speed shouldn't have any impact in this match up, at all whatsoever. It was a thing of the past not anymore and even then it was a marginal advantage. A slower Part 1 Kakashi was able to react to Itachi's speed without fail, yet somehow a much more polished, faster version of him isn't going to be able to?


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## Jυstin (Feb 28, 2013)

Kakashi still struggled to keep up, even though he did so nonetheless. It was a Jutsu exchange that ended with Kakashi running out of cards first, and winding up far more tired out than his opposition (by Kakashi's own admission). And after that, Kakashi pretty much summed up that Itachi was just toying around. However, the speed I'm referring to is Susano'o's attacking speed, which borders on blitzing (actually it's only been shown blitzing). In addition to Itachi's own speed (able to keep pace with Bee, and exchange in Taijutsu with both Bee and Naruto), his Jutsu execution (which allowed him to get one over on Bee during a counter attack which Bee was forced to block instead of evade), and Amaterasu, Susano'o will put on a lot of pressure. This is in addition to Itachi's base skills, which for benefit of the doubt I will say Kakashi is more or less on par with (though I personally do not believe so judging by the way both have carried themselves in their fights). Kakashi's strong points are his resourcefulness and his haxed Kamui, but Itachi has shown to be every bit Kakashi's equal in resourcefulness, if not more, and has a similar hax technique to Kamui on top of other haxed techniques.

And despite Kakashi's improved use of Kamui, it still drains him considerably. Moreover, the Sharingan in general has a higher tax on him than it does Itachi, even if he's improved his stamina. He also has the disadvantage of not being able to read Itachi's seal speed. This is one of Itachi's deadliest traits. The speed in which he can execute techniques is much superior (and we've seen this vs Kakashi, in the Uchiha fight during the shuriken exchange before Tsukuyomi, and in his fight with Bee). Kakashi would need Kamui to have a shot of winning, but Itachi has an equal one-shot opportunity with Amaterasu. Both work almost the same way, by appearing where the eyes focus.

With Kurama's chakra though, it's no contest. Kamui is too haxed by that point. Itachi has no hope. I don't need to explain why. The scaling is absurd. Kakashi stomps.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 28, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Kakashi still struggled to keep up, even though he did so nonetheless. It was a Jutsu exchange that ended with Kakashi running out of cards first, and winding up far more tired out than his opposition (by Kakashi's own admission). And after that, Kakashi pretty much summed up that Itachi was just toying around.



Kakashi ran out of cards because he had to protect a weak person. He was forced to protect Kurenai because she was standing there like a dumb bitch. And he was more tired because he used his 2nd bunshin in that exchange, 1 for Kisame and 1 for Itachi, putting him at 25% chakra. And Kakashi said he wasn't using his full power. And neither was Kakashi.



> However, the speed I'm referring to is Susano'o's attacking speed, which borders on blitzing (actually it's only been shown blitzing). In addition to Itachi's own speed (able to keep pace with Bee, and exchange in Taijutsu with both Bee and Naruto), his Jutsu execution (which allowed him to get one over on Bee during a counter attack which Bee was forced to block instead of evade), and Amaterasu, Susano'o will put on a lot of pressure.



Susanoo has only ever blitzed targets that weren't paying attention or had reason. Orochimaru was laughing, got stabbed and laughed. Nagato was being controlled.



> This is in addition to Itachi's base skills, which for benefit of the doubt I will say Kakashi is more or less on par with (though I personally do not believe so judging by the way both have carried themselves in their fights).



Kakashi on par with Itachi's base skill? No. Kakashi has 3 affinities while Itachi has 2. Kakashi has summonings, smell sensing, and intelligence that is far beyond Itachi's.



> Kakashi's strong points are his resourcefulness and his haxed Kamui, but Itachi has shown to be every bit Kakashi's equal in resourcefulness, if not more, and has a similar hax technique to Kamui on top of other haxed techniques.



He's no where near as resourceful. Kakashi has everything he needs for any situation, wires, chains, caltrops, and just anything. Itachi has kunai and shuriken. Kakashi also has 3 affinities to use and Itachi has 2. About hax jutsu's, quality>quantity.



> And despite Kakashi's improved use of Kamui, it still drains him considerably. Moreover, the Sharingan in general has a higher tax on him than it does Itachi, even if he's improved his stamina.



Right now Itachi's MS drains him more than Kakashi's does. And Kakashi has shown that the sharingan has no effect on his body anymore as he's used it for 2 straight days. 



> He also has the disadvantage of not being able to read Itachi's seal speed. This is one of Itachi's deadliest traits. The speed in which he can execute techniques is much superior (and we've seen this vs Kakashi, in the Uchiha fight during the shuriken exchange before Tsukuyomi, and in his fight with Bee).



You mean where Kakashi did everything Itachi did in the same time frame. Sasuke block everything, and Bee did too. He's never overwhelmed someone like that.



> Kakashi would need Kamui to have a shot of winning, but Itachi has an equal one-shot opportunity with Amaterasu. Both work almost the same way, by appearing where the eyes focus.



Except Amaterasu has shown to be escapable, dodged, and not reliable. Kamui has never missed it target, can't be escaped, and Itachi ain't dodging it.


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## Seon (Feb 28, 2013)

I'm sorry Itachi is tiers above Kakashi. If you've heard statements made by other characters. Kabuto himself stated that he could think of no better fit for his edo Tensei than Itachi. He recognized as Itachi is clearly on a different level from his other edos. Nagato included.

Also if people bring up part one Kakashi. Word for word he admitted that Itachi could have killed him if he wanted to.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 28, 2013)

Seon said:


> I'm sorry Itachi is tiers above Kakashi. If you've heard statements made by other characters. Kabuto himself stated that he could think of no better fit for his edo Tensei than Itachi. He recognized as Itachi is clearly on a different level from his other edos. Nagato included.



Itachi isn't tiers above Kakashi. They're in the same one. When did he say there was no better fit? And you're saying that's true, because that includes Madara. Kabuto said he was on a different level because he broke edo tensei, not strength wise.


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## Seon (Feb 28, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi isn't tiers above Kakashi. They're in the same one. When did he say there was no better fit? And you're saying that's true, because that includes Madara. Kabuto said he was on a different level because he broke edo tensei, not strength wise.



No. He didn't included madara. Obviously. I'll link you the exact panel where kabuto states 

said

Wether you credit this to Itachi's strength or intelligence, it's respect to a high level. Kabuto understands he cannot defeat Itachi. So he needs to control him. 

Same tier? Kakashi admitted to being overwhelmed in part 1. As far as I'm concerned no one got a significant buff that would change that outcome. 

No wank or revered on Itachi's side seriously, just Kakashi cannot defeat him. Simple.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 28, 2013)

Seon said:


> No. He didn't included madara. Obviously. I'll link you the exact panel where kabuto states
> 
> killing each other



Ok, and being suitable for edo tensei means nothing.



> Wether you credit this to Itachi's strength or intelligence, it's respect to a high level. Kabuto understands he cannot defeat Itachi. So he needs to control him.



Except that there's no respect to it. He got extremely lucky, it took no intelligence or strength to break it. And Kabuto seemed confident he could beat Itachi AND Sasuke.



> Same tier? Kakashi admitted to being overwhelmed in part 1. As far as I'm concerned no one got a significant buff that would change that outcome.



Yeah same tier. Itachi has MS, that's what makes him so strong. Kakashi has a base arsenal better than almost anyone, and MS that can't be defended against.



> No wank or revered on Itachi's side seriously, just Kakashi cannot defeat him. Simple.



Kamui says otherwise. So does a bunshin feint that Itachi has canonically fallen for twice.


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## narutoish (Feb 28, 2013)

^ one bunshin feint from itachi could give away all knowledge on kamui as well.

itachi just has more ways to kill him, tsukuyomi, amertersu and susano could finish him off.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 28, 2013)

narutoish said:


> ^ one bunshin feint from itachi could give away all knowledge on kamui as well.
> 
> itachi just has more ways to kill him, tsukuyomi, amertersu and susano could finish him off.



Except Kakashi won't kamui a bunshin. By the time Kamui comes into play Itachi won't be using bunshins because of chakra.

Tsukiyomi will be broke, ama can be kamui, dodged, hit a bunshin, and kamui goes through susanoo. Note how his only ways to beat Kakashi is MS. Yet people are saying Itachi is tiers above Kakashi. Kakashi can end this with a RKB+Raikiri.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Feb 28, 2013)

Kakashi > Itachi w/ Kamui 
- If Kakashi uses it very early
- Itachi has no knowledge on Kamui

Scenario 2: Same reason as above......

Without Kamui, Kakashi loses badly.


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## narutoish (Feb 28, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Except Kakashi won't kamui a bunshin. By the time Kamui comes into play Itachi won't be using bunshins because of chakra.



I said its possible, and if it happens, then he will give away the knowledge. I read some posts saying that kakashi will resort to kamui soon.



> Tsukiyomi will be broke, ama can be kamui, dodged, hit a bunshin, and kamui goes through susanoo. Note how his only ways to beat Kakashi is MS. Yet people are saying Itachi is tiers above Kakashi. Kakashi can end this with a RKB+Raikiri.



there is no evidence that kakashi can break tsukuyomi (he doesn't have uchiha blood, neither does he have insanly strong emotions like sasuke did, nor does he have the curse mark that helped sasuke).

as for amertersu, there is no way that kakashi will be able to react in time to be able to use kamui. both kamui and amerteru can one shot either of the characters.

its true that itachi needs MS to beat kakashi, but you have to keep in mind that its only because kakashi has obito's sharingan, without it itachi could very well finish him off without MS. Though I don't agree with whoever said that itachi is tiers above then kakashi.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 28, 2013)

narutoish said:


> I said its possible, and if it happens, then he will give away the knowledge. I read some posts saying that kakashi will resort to kamui soon.



He won't use it early.



> there is no evidence that kakashi can break tsukuyomi (he doesn't have uchiha blood, neither does he have insanly strong emotions like sasuke did, nor does he have the curse mark that helped sasuke).



Databook says you need a sharingan and to be skilled. Having blood means nothing. It's just something to say Sasauke was the one to fight Itachi.



> as for amertersu, there is no way that kakashi will be able to react in time to be able to use kamui. both kamui and amerteru can one shot either of the characters.



Kakashi can use it to kamui amaterasu off of him. Or when he sees Itachi getting ready to use MS he switches with a bunshin which is the most likely thing to happen.



> its true that itachi needs MS to beat kakashi, but you have to keep in mind that its only because kakashi has obito's sharingan, without it itachi could very well finish him off without MS. Though I don't agree with whoever said that itachi is tiers above then kakashi.



It's Kakashi's though, just how Sasuke's EMS is his, and Obito has rinnigan and etc.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 28, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> He won't use it early.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Manga Canon > databook, kakashi was instantly overwhelmed by tsukiomi and even when he awakened ms he avoided eye contact with itachi's shouten clone who didn't even have ms.

U think he won't be in any physical pain whatsoever? You think hes just gonna focus and amatarasu the flames off of him while he's burning? Keep in mind these flames instantly inflicted pain on the third strongest biju in the manga. 


Kakashi canoically couldn't bushin feint sasukes arrow, he's not fast enough to feint after the fire has already been casted, he's not in raikage's league sorry.



Kakashi only hope at winning is kamui, but itachi is quick to the gun with his first ms techniques and not to mention kakashi has to watch his line of sight or he will fall victim to genjutsu, kamui gg is highly unlikely, this match ends with kakashi eventually being overwhelmed.


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## Remsengan (Feb 28, 2013)

People just can't accept that someone who was formally weaker than Itachi could get stronger than him.  The fact is Kakashi put a dammed good fight even when he was outmatched, and has since than improved his ninjutsu arsenal, his tactics and his MS.

While Itachi is no doubt a genius and extremely skilled in every kind of jutsu, Kakashi has shown the ability to deceive him on multiple occasions. And while Itachi was outmanned during their previous encounters, it doesn't mean Kakashi could have accomplished the same results on his own.  He spent his first fight with Itachi  defending 2 incapacitated Jounin and the second fight he only used Naruto in a position he could have used a KB.

The argument that Itachi was constantly holding back is invalid even if it is true.  No one can say to what degree he was holding back.  Despite the fact he was supposedly working as a double agent, he murdered his entire clan (including women+children), used mind-breaking abilities on his brother, aided with the capture of other villages Jinchuriki and other criminal activity as part of Akatsuki.  

At the other side of the spectrum, his fight with Nagato and Kabuto do not establish a clear indicator of his strengths either.  His clash with Naruto and Bee can be summarized as a violent discussion, his victory over Nagato has so many outside factors that you could make an argument either way, and his fight with Kabuto even more so.  Being an Edo, using Izanami, Naruto's intent to kill, Kabuto's control, ect., are all circumstances which make Itachi's true strength very unclear.

Bottom line is:  There are just as many factors that aided Itachi's "victories" as there are ones that indicate he was sand-bagging when he "lost".  Saying Itachi never went full out as a feat is a no-limits fallacy, and the feats taken at face value tell a different story than what Itachifans want to believe.


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## Dr. White (Feb 28, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> -Snip-


-Itachi was holding back in all of his fights.(kakashi even stated Itachi could have killed him in their first encounter)
-Itachi was using a 30% shouten clone when Kakashi pulled off his magnificent feat, and even then it took a combo of Kakashi + Naruto to take him out with Oodama Rasengan.


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## Bkprince33 (Feb 28, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> People just can't accept that someone who was formally weaker than Itachi could get stronger than him.  The fact is Kakashi put a dammed good fight even when he was outmatched, and has since than improved his ninjutsu arsenal, his tactics and his MS.
> 
> While Itachi is no doubt a genius and extremely skilled in every kind of jutsu, Kakashi has shown the ability to deceive him on multiple occasions. And while Itachi was outmanned during their previous encounters, it doesn't mean Kakashi could have accomplished the same results on his own.  He spent his first fight with Itachi  defending 2 incapacitated Jounin and the second fight he only used Naruto in a position he could have used a KB.
> 
> ...



I don't understand how this itachi hate rant is relevant to the thread but ok, its funny how , ppl forget itachi fooled kakashi as well with a bushin feint despite being out numbered, and you where quick to point out all of the help itachi got against ppl who aren't even relavant to the thread? And then conviently overlook all the help kakashi gets as well  smh


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## Remsengan (Feb 28, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -Itachi was holding back in all of his fights.(kakashi even stated Itachi could have killed him in their first encounter)
> -Itachi was using a 30% shouten clone when Kakashi pulled off his magnificent feat, and even then it took a combo of Kakashi + Naruto to take him out with Oodama Rasengan.




You can't say to what degree he was holding back.  It can just as easily be said that he was holding back only 10%.  This is the problem with the "holding back" logic, you equivocate not using full strength to completely jobbing...when you have no way of proving to what degree he was holding back.

Even if Shouten is a 30% clone, it can use abilities and skills identical to the original, with the only limitation being the amount of chakra.  Therefor, while it's reasonable to believe Itachi couldn't use MS, every other factor comes into play.  Itachi-clone was being controlled by real Itachi, and got duped by Kakashi's feint.  And Kakashi could have just as easily accomplished Naruto's role with another KB or slightly different tactics. 






Bkprince33 said:


> I don't understand how this itachi hate rant is relevant to the thread but ok, its funny how , ppl forget itachi fooled kakashi as well with a bushin feint despite being out numbered, and you where quick to point out all of the help itachi got against ppl who aren't even relavant to the thread? And then conviently overlook all the help kakashi gets as well  smh



How is this "hate"?  I guess anything less than praise is "hate" to Itachifan.  Yes Itachi also fooled Kakashi but my point isn't that Itachi can't keep up, it's that Kakashi is on the same intelligence tier.  And all the help Kakashi got in p1 is true but arguably irrelevant due to the fact that whatever help he got was minimal and War Arc-Kakashi is much stronger than his pre-Pein era counterpart.


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## Jυstin (Feb 28, 2013)

I see Kamui being the only way Kakashi can actually best Itachi. Even then, Itachi is known to use skillful bunshen feints. He can also use a Karasu Bunshen or summon crows to block LOS like he's done before. He's so good at creating clone feints that he can create one not only while throwing tons of shuriken in rapid succession while forming the seals, but also while in direct sight of someone with the Sharingan and *not* having his seals read. That is fast. Itachi could use this to block LOS for Kamui, or for catching Kakashi in Genjutsu, or for distracting him for a Totsuka stab.

Itachi could also just point at Kakashi to catch him in Genjutsu. Even if Kakashi can notice he's in one and break out, Itachi would only need a second or two to use that time to hit him with Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, or Totsuka.

Hell. Itachi was able to use Susano'o when he had practically no chakra left, after using multiple MS Jutsu. Why Shouten Itachi, with 30% chakra, couldn't use Susano'o to block Oodama Rasengan and bitchslap Naruto should be a huge warning sign that Itachi was lying about not being able to use MS and letting Kakashi and friends get past him. Considering he blatantly fired a Katon and did nothing to capitalize on it, and just stood still and waited to be attacked, compared to what we've seen from him, he was holding back to the point of not even trying.


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## narutoish (Feb 28, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Databook says you need a sharingan and to be skilled. Having blood means nothing. It's just something to say Sasauke was the one to fight Itachi.



it was made clear in the manga that curse mark assisted sasuke in breaking tsukuyomi.

also like Bkprince already mentioned, kakashi was avoiding eye contact against itachi who couldn't even use MS.



> Kakashi can use it to kamui amaterasu off of him. Or when he sees Itachi getting ready to use MS he switches with a bunshin which is the most likely thing to happen.



once amertersu is released, kakashi can't do anything, much less try and using kamui to get them off.


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## Hossaim (Mar 1, 2013)

Tsukyomi GG
Yata GG
Amaterasu GG

so many GGs here.

Kakashi is outclassed, Itachi reacted to kirin, he can dance around kamui all day.


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## Sok (Mar 1, 2013)

Hossaim said:


> Tsukyomi GG
> Yata GG
> Amaterasu GG
> 
> ...



Kakashi cut a lightning  in half, by your logic he could dance around amaterasu all day.


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## Hossaim (Mar 1, 2013)

Sok said:


> Kakashi cut a lightning  in half, by your logic he could dance around amaterasu all day.



Amaterasu is faster than lightning imo.


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## Seon (Mar 1, 2013)

Simply put, Itachi has more ways to take out Kakashi than he does Itachi. Think about it, kamui is the only thing keeping Kakashi relevant power wise. He's lower tiered.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 1, 2013)

Remsengan said:


> You can't say to what degree he was holding back.  It can just as easily be said that he was holding back only 10%.  This is the problem with the "holding back" logic, you equivocate not using full strength to completely jobbing...when you have no way of proving to what degree he was holding back.
> 
> Even if Shouten is a 30% clone, it can use abilities and skills identical to the original, with the only limitation being the amount of chakra.  Therefor, while it's reasonable to believe Itachi couldn't use MS, every other factor comes into play.  Itachi-clone was being controlled by real Itachi, and got duped by Kakashi's feint.  And Kakashi could have just as easily accomplished Naruto's role with another KB or slightly different tactics.
> 
> ...



I say that Because you brought up scenarios that downplay Itachi and those scenarios also don't have anything to do with this match, every reasonable Itachi fans concedes that Itachi and Kakashi more or less are equal in intelligence, I never suggested Itachi would have a intelligence advantage.


 Kakashi also got help against Deva, against obito, against the jins, against itachi, against kazuku, against diedara pretty much in almost every match he's been in but I won't bring it up because it doesn't mean anything in this scenario.


Pretty much Kakashi loses Imo, because he will hesitate to use kamui, while Itachi will not hesitate to use tsukiyomi or amatarasu, because he has susano to fall back on, not to mention Kakashi will have to avoid eye contact threw out the whole fight which will also hinder him, basically there pretty much equal in base, with Itachi having more genjutsu trickery, and Kakashi having more ninjutsu trickery, but itachi's ms simply has more fire power.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 1, 2013)

Itachi never bunshin feinted Kakashi successfully. He failed and was tricked by Kakashi.

Sasuke was blitzed by Sasuke. 

Avoiding eye contact after MS means nothing because Kakashi thinks you need Uchiha blood to break it, which is obviously false.

Ama needs prep unlike Susanoo arrows so when Kakashi sees MS, he bunshin feints.

Susanoo gets kamui'd through.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi never bunshin feinted Kakashi successfully. He failed and was tricked by Kakashi.
> 
> Sasuke was blitzed by Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Which is why his back got scorched by a exploding bunshin?

Sure he realized it at the last minute but by then it was to late.

Sasuke was blitz by sasuke Kool story, ill assume you meant Itachi got blitz, I could use the same poor logic and say Kakashi got blitz by Deva, now where does that get us? Fact is Itachi and Kakashi fought twice and Kakashi never blitz him, infact it was Itachi who was pressuring Kakashi with his superior speed.


Kakashi has no knowledge on amatarasu, and I guess if you want to count blinking as prep, ill just make the same argument for Itachi and say when Kakashi blinks Itachi uses a bunshin feint


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## Vergil642 (Mar 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi never bunshin feinted Kakashi successfully. He failed and was tricked by Kakashi.



Itachi casually pushed Kakashi to the limit and was never tricked by him in that fight.



> Sasuke was blitzed by Sasuke.



Assuming you mean Itachi was blitzed by Sasuke, this also never happened.



> Avoiding eye contact after MS means nothing because Kakashi thinks you need Uchiha blood to break it, which is obviously false.



Kakashi makes eye contact and he gets Tsukuyomi'd into oblivion or possibly just held in a Genjutsu while a KB stabs his nipples off.

Kakashi avoiding eye contact means he can't effectively Kamui Itachi's entire body. Meaning Itachi will always have time to Amaterasu Kakashi's face, ensuring a double kill unless Kakashi's lucky.



> Ama needs prep unlike Susanoo arrows so when Kakashi sees MS, he bunshin feints.



No more than Kamui needs prep.

Kakashi won't spam KBs, he never has and rarely uses more than one or two in a fight. His KBs will shatter his stamina while Itachi's KBs will not.



> Susanoo gets kamui'd through.



No it won't, literally nothing beyond your lack of reading comprehension indicates this. When Kakashi looks at Itachi in Susanoo he's still looking at Susanoo as well.

Get some cream for your anal devastation. Did Itachi do something to your favourite character at some point in your youth?


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## Seon (Mar 1, 2013)

Susano'o getting kamui'd? Lmao logic please?


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## Santoryu (Mar 1, 2013)

I'd say both of these combatants are in the same tier; either one could potentially win, but I'm leaning more towards Kakashi due to a variety of factors.

Kakashi and Itachi are comparable in taijutsu, as evidenced by the manga and databook. Taijutsu won't be a deciding factor in the long run, but Kakashi does have the ability to incoporate Raikiri into his fighting style. 

A far inferior version of Kakashi was not completely overwhelmed by Itachi's speed in part 1; Kisame even went on to state that the Copy-Ninja was holding his own. Kakashi is significantly faster than his part-1 self. Itachi is no slouch either, his maxed-out speed in the databook and movement speed coupled with his Sharingan which allowed him to not be completely overwhelmed by KCM Naruto and Bee confirm this. I'd say both Kakashi and Itachi are comparable in speed at this point in the manga; Itachi may have a slight advantage, but it's not going to make a huge difference.

Itachi's Sharingan genjutsu is far more potent than Kakashi's-especially Tsukuyomi. Itachi noted that the regular Sharingan provides some resistance against Tsukuyomi- it wouldn't suprise me in the least if a far more skilled version of Kakashi who has awakned the Mangekyo-Sharingan could resist it better, potentially even break out, albeit that's speculative at this point. Essentially, no genjutsu bar Tsukuyomi will be a deciding factor in this fight, and even that could be resisted to some extent. We must be careful when taking characters-statements at face value: Itachi stated that only a Sharingan-user with the same blood can defeat him. We obviously know this is not true-seeing as how there are several shinobi who are capable of defeating Itachi;Kakashi using the Sharingan so remarkably-welll defies logic. Itachi was so shocked about Kakashi awakening the Mangekyo-Sharingan, he even went on to state "impossible, you.." just because Kakashi's 	not of the same blood line doesn't mean he can't compete-he is a shinobi who uses the Sharingan better than most of the Uchiha clan, and has mastered his Mangekyo-Sharingan to such an extent that even the shinobi who had the original eye was completely fooled due to Kakashi's high-speed jutsu execution. 


Both Kakashi and Itachi are extremely smart, but Kakashi has been consistently potrayed as the superior tactician/analyst. In the current shinobi-war alone, it was stated that Kakashi was the greatest analyst, and his opponent (Obito) praised his intellect on more than one occasion. Itachi's insight and composure during the heat of battle is remarkable, Obito himself was wary. So how do we conclude who would have the edge in a battle in terms of tactics? Simple. Kakashi showed that he was able to outsmart Itachi to such an extent that even Itachi himself stated that he did not notice until it was already too late. While it's true Itachi was limited to 30% chakra, this did not effect his intellect or physical stats. Keep in mind that Itachi was already aware that Kakashi uses bunshins due to their first battle in part one.

Kakashi has a superior base-ninjutsu arsenal. His Suitons would adequately counter Itachi's Katons. His doton jutsu has proved to be effective against Pain and Itachi himself. He has ranged-projectiles which cut through boulders with ease. Raiden tech sweeps a large area and is extremely lethal. A simple bunshin-feint could potentially make an opening for Kakashi, which would allow him to end the fight with Kamui.

Which brings me to my next point, Kamui. Kakashi's mastery over this technique is very impressive; he can even warp himself now it would seem. Itachi has never seen this space-time jutsu in action; conversly, Kakashi already witnessed Susano and Tsukuyomi. In fact, he even deduced that Sasuke was using Susano despite it being the first time he had witnessed it. Speaking about Susano, a pre-war arc Kakashi was able to instantly able to defend himself against it via Kamui, and after warping the arrow, Kakashi is blatanly more interested in talking to Sasuke, rather than actually trying to kill him. Keep in mind that current Kakash is faster, and has already experienced Susano once-meaning that he's used to the speed, and if  Gaara could exploit its weakness, Kakashi can too. Another thing that should be noted is that Susano makes the user slower.

As for Amateresu, while Kakashi has yet to witness it on-panel, it clearly produces a specific pressure that can be felt by its targets, and tears of blood would immediately alert a ninja of Kakashi's calibre. 

Kakashi has more chakra than Itachi, and would win in a battle of attrition. 

Itachi used the following jutsu in part 1:

Tsukuyomi (twice)
Amataresu
Exploding bunshin

as a result of using his Mangekyo-Sharingan multiple times, he stated that he had to rest. Kakashi used his Mangekyo-Sharingan five times, on top of multiple high-chakra taxing jutsu like Raikiri/Raiden/bunshins in his battle with Tobi alone, and this was before he was healed. He can use the Sharingan for  over a day on top of multiple jutsu, so he is certainly not getting out lasted.

I doubt either fighter is resorting to their respective Mangekyo-Sharingan abilities from the get go. Kakashi considering using Kamui right off the bat against Obito because he thought the latter was Madara. Itachi is no where near that level. Kakashi would approach the fight cauitously and doesn't want to run the risk of getting caught in Tsukuyomi. Itachi knows that he is dealing with a ninja who is capable of outsmarting himself, and even posseses the Mangekyo-Sharingan-not to mention using the MS in general is extremely detrimental to Itachi. In the end though, Kamui can be used for offensive and defensive purposes, and the speed at that he is capable of executing it ensures he'll win after a tough fight.


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## Art Master (Mar 1, 2013)

Kai said:


> Itachi beats Kakashi with high difficulty in a classic, regular match as Kakashi will resort to Kamui for defense when he has to fight off both Amaterasu and Susano'o. His fatigue wears down his movements and increases his probability of receiving a life threatening hit while Itachi doesn't necessarily need to move because of Susano'o. Kakashi's limits have vastly improved since the Pain arc but not absurdly to the level where he can beat Itachi one on one. Still, because of Kakashi's endurance feats with Kamui, Itachi is going to be using large amounts of stamina to beat Kakashi.



This. Kakashi is not beating Itachi. They aren't even in the same tier in my opinion. Kakashi's only shot at beating someone like Itachi is Kamui which he'll waste on just warping away Amaterasu and Magatamas. Of course they're both smart and either has a chance of outsmarting each other. But since Itachi is repeatedly portrayed as a superior character, then he should win ultimately.

Kakashi should win scenario 2 thanks to Kurama's chakra, as he can make biju sized Kamuis. He can have a shot at warping away Itachi's Susano'o.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 1, 2013)

Vergil642 said:


> Itachi casually pushed Kakashi to the limit and was never tricked by him in that fight.



No he didn't. Kakashi wasn't at his limit. And he was bunshin feinted.



> Assuming you mean Itachi was blitzed by Sasuke, this also never happened.



That's what I meant and yes it did.



> Kakashi makes eye contact and he gets Tsukuyomi'd into oblivion or possibly just held in a Genjutsu while a KB stabs his nipples off.



Except there's no reason he can't break it. It's painfully obvious that the blood thing is false and Kakashi has enough skill to break like the databook states.



> Kakashi avoiding eye contact means he can't effectively Kamui Itachi's entire body. Meaning Itachi will always have time to Amaterasu Kakashi's face, ensuring a double kill unless Kakashi's lucky.



No body=dead.



> No more than Kamui needs prep.



Against Deva and Sasuke he used it with zero prep. Ama takes closing eye, building pressure, then firing it.



> Kakashi won't spam KBs, he never has and rarely uses more than one or two in a fight. His KBs will shatter his stamina while Itachi's KBs will not.



He will use them when he needs to. And Itachi's will tire him out too, one MS and he's huffing and puffing.



> No it won't, literally nothing beyond your lack of reading comprehension indicates this. When Kakashi looks at Itachi in Susanoo he's still looking at Susanoo as well.



He puts the barrier wherever he wants it to go, which will be in susanoo.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 1, 2013)

Kakashi required assistance from Naruto and other companions to defeat Shoten Itachi; that is the gap of power between them.


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## IchLiebe (Mar 1, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Kakashi required assistance from Naruto and other companions to defeat Shoten Itachi; that is the gap of power between them.



No he didn't. He let Naruto do the final hit to save chakra, but Kakashi easily could've finished it.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 1, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No he didn't. He let Naruto do the final hit to save chakra, but Kakashi easily could've finished it.





Prior to indirectly admitting his inferiority to Shoten Itachi, Kakashi rambles on about genjutsu prowess and the evolution of the Sharingan - frightening Chiyo - because Tsukuyomi can't be broken under normal circumstances.

If Itachi *actually* had an intent to murder them, it could've been accomplished without much hassle; they're technically his allies, however.


Kakashi - Amaterasu
Naruto - Illusion with a kunai execution
Sakura - A plethora of ways to defeat her
Chiyo - Retreats (she won't fight against a Sharingan user individually)


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## Kanki (Mar 1, 2013)

Kakashi had no idea Itachi was only at 30% in that situation. 

However Itachi still wins. A very close fight, but Kishi has portrayed him as being superior.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Mar 1, 2013)

Kakashi Is God said:


> Kakashi had no idea Itachi was only at 30% in that situation.
> 
> However Itachi still wins. A very close fight, but Kishi has portrayed him as being superior.



Kakashi didn't defeat Shoten Itachi without assistance, either.


Not even close... 

Itachi wins with moderate difficulty.


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## Jυstin (Mar 1, 2013)

> That's what I meant and yes it did.



This argument is terrible and you should feel bad. Sasuke could not (nor did he) replicate this feat against the real Itachi. This only happened because that was a clone. I guess you're also ignoring the _fact_ that Itachi's intent was to ultimately let Sasuke win.

People must really hold Itachi's clones in absurdly high regard, since no one uses a feat of someone dispatching of one of Naruto's clones as viable proof they could beat Naruto himself. Apparently Naruto's clones aren't worth enough for that.

Also your logic can be thrown back at you. According to your logic, Genin Sasuke could easily solo 7 Zabuza.



> Except there's no reason he can't break it. It's painfully obvious that the blood thing is false and Kakashi has enough skill to break like the databook states.



Technically only someone with Itachi's blood _did_ "break" it, and it was with help of the Cursed Seal as shown, and it was later explained by Obito that it was only to push Sasuke into a corner and not used seriously. Kakashi has one feat against Tsukuyomi, and it involves him dropping in one second. The databook says nothing on his skill to actually break Tsukuyomi. Kakashi himself acknowledged that Itachi _could_ have killed him with it if he wanted. But maybe he did improve himself against Tsukuyomi. Maybe now perhaps Kakashi won't drop until after 3 seconds.



> Against Deva and Sasuke he used it with zero prep. _Ama takes closing eye, building pressure, then firing it_.



There are plenty of quick-use instances where this has been proven to be bullshit.



> He will use them when he needs to. And Itachi's will tire him out too, one MS and he's huffing and puffing.



I like how this was barely the case for even an Itachi who was so eaten up by disease that he had taken medicine just to still be alive by that point.




> Kakashi has more chakra than Itachi, and would win in a battle of attrition.
> 
> Itachi used the following jutsu in part 1:
> 
> ...



It should be noted that in their battle in part 1, Kakashi was wearing out exponentially faster than Itachi, stated by both of them. I do not buy Itachi being worn out after a few uses of MS for a few reasons. One is that while his body had been eaten up by disease, and after using multiple Jutsu, Itachi still managed Tsukuyomi, multiple Amaterasu, a decently lengthy use of Susano'o, and an Amaterasu Fuuin Jutsu before _the disease_ killed him. Another is that, despite using Tsukuyomi twice and Amaterasu once, Kisame (who had been Itachi's partner for years and knew him well) didn't believe that he needed to retreat. I don't think Itachi was that drained. Also, while Kakashi can maintain Sharingan now for over a day, Itachi very rarely turns his off.

This isn't to say Kakashi doesn't have more stamina than Itachi, though. Sasuke does as well. In his battle with Sasuke, Itachi outlasted him in stamina. He just has very good chakra control (which goes hand-in-hand with Genjutsu).

This is just a sick Itachi, mind you. One whose physical body had been eaten up by disease by that point.


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## Kanki (Mar 2, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Kakashi didn't defeat Shoten Itachi without assistance, either.
> 
> 
> Not even close...
> ...



No, with the help of Naruto he raped him in about 4 panels with virtually no effort.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 3, 2013)

King Itachi said:


> Kakashi didn't defeat Shoten Itachi without assistance, either.
> 
> 
> _*Not even close... *_
> ...


It's not like the assistance had any impact, something Kakashi, currently could use another clone feint or two, to get the job done. Kakashi basically gift-wrapped Shouten Itachi for Naruto to take out.


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