# Base Sanji vs Doflamingo



## YonkoDrippy (Sep 11, 2021)

Can current Base Sanji beat Doflamingo?


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## A Optimistic (Sep 11, 2021)

Sanji wins.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Moldrew (Sep 11, 2021)

With his next power up, sure. With what he’s shown so far, no. Find out in a month or two.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Eustathios (Sep 11, 2021)

Yes.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 11, 2021)

Need to see more from him in the next chapters but I think we can give him the benefit of a doubt at this point. Doffy is old news, bury him alongside crackers and mochi.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## trance (Sep 11, 2021)

sanji wins


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 11, 2021)

Sanji one-shots

Franky is pushing Doflamingo at this stage and he's always been one-shot material for the M3


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## Draghensalk (Sep 11, 2021)

Doflamingo puts him in the bird cage and Sanji dies without water?


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## ShadoLord (Sep 11, 2021)

base Sanji is thrashing Hybrid Queen...

Reactions: Agree 3 | Optimistic 1


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## Shuyakuu (Sep 11, 2021)

Lmfao, base Sanji can't even scratch Queen, as it's explicitely stated by the latter. Doflamingo gives the fodder the same treatment he did in Dressrosa.


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## Rcranium (Sep 11, 2021)

Doflamingo still wins. Too versatile, too much haki. With raid suit it's much closer.

Reactions: Funny 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## LordVinsmoke (Sep 12, 2021)

Sanji mid/high diff


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## CrownedEagle (Sep 12, 2021)

Lol Dofli wank as usual, Sanji won this fight mid difficulty and no more.


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## B Rabbit (Sep 12, 2021)

Why is Doffy so wanked on this forum. 

This is literally the only place on the internet that wanks Doffy to this extreme.

Sanji low diffs. When Doffy comes back with his powercreeps it'll be more fair.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Datassassin (Sep 12, 2021)

Of course not. The "no"-ness of this intensifies when you look at what Sanji accomplished & his on-panel feats, rather than the amount of IRL time that's passed. It's been eons, but being a physical threat to Queen doesn't equate to some stomping of DD, a peer of Queen in power. That'd be empty-headed. Sanji needs the Ranger Suit, and I wouldn't give Sanji the victory nod before he actually gets more relevant feats for this matchup from his very-much-ongoing manga fight.


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## B Rabbit (Sep 12, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Of course not. The "no"-ness of this intensifies when you look at what Sanji accomplished & his on-panel feats, rather than the amount of IRL time that's passed. It's been eons, but being a physical threat to Queen doesn't equate to some stomping of DD, a peer of Queen in power. That'd be empty-headed. Sanji needs the Ranger Suit, and I wouldn't give Sanji the victory nod before he actually gets more relevant feats for this matchup from his very-much-ongoing manga fight.


Doflamingo is not a peer of Queen.

Doflamingo in his strongest and strongest techniques couldn't hurt G4 Luffy. While Cracker a weaker character than Queen did.

Everytime threads like these come up. I ask for proof that Doflamingo can harm G4 Luffy and they don't have any. They say Gamma Knife weakend Doffy so much that he dropped several tiers in power. But have no proof of statements, portrayel or feats for this.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Datassassin (Sep 12, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Doflamingo is not a peer of Queen.
> 
> Doflamingo in his strongest and strongest techniques couldn't hurt G4 Luffy. While Cracker a weaker character than Queen did.


The feats and portrayal speak for themselves IMO, along with the kept 'Joker' moniker vs Queen/King/Jack.

DD is a different type of combatant than Cracker. The means through which DD overcame G4 did not appear replicable for Cracker, and vice-versa. Even against one another, DD gets a substantial matchup advantage against Cracker simply by virtue of how many of their traits stack up. Furthermore, nothing connects Cracker and Queen in any real way. They're in different crews, and have different evaluations of their threat levels by the government. Queen is not _inherently a level above_ Cracker in combat.


B Rabbit said:


> Everytime threads like these come up. I ask for proof that Doflamingo can harm G4 Luffy and they don't have any.


1) I didn't interpret Luffy deciding to dodge the unHardened Awakening string attacks as PIS.

2) DD showed later that he can, in fact, use remote Hardening on many of the giant tendrils at once which would dramatically increase cutting or piercing capabilities, and just didn't in G4 round 1 (for compelling reasons I'm sure  ).

3) Post-Law DD was capable of outlasting the offense of DR G4, while likely taking much more damage than he would have otherwise per the debilitating effects of the Law-enabled wounds. _I personally_ do not care much about the point of ironing-out whether or not DD's non-Holy-Assassin moves could harm DR G4 because it seemed to me that in any fresh 1v1, the G4 mode would be cleanly outlasted and better fought against so it becomes moot. Spider-bird still wins whether or not the unHardened Awakening strings truly couldn't scratch DR G4.

4) I'll go out on a limb and _presume_ the failure of the 2nd Athlete Thread contributes significantly to your perception that a fresh DD couldn't _possibly_ have harmed DR G4 with his piercing or cutting attacks (bar the Holy Assassin thing), and I'll simply point out that the mechanism of Athlete Thread was to cut *after* the blunt-force kick lands. The 784 roundhouse was stopped in the first place. Oda shows us DD's foot-tip stopped in Luffy's side, with the sharp [non-Awakening] strings *produced behind DD's ankle* which would cut the target as they're blasted away like Luffy was pre-G4 in 782 (seemingly through his Hardened guard).

Critically, that 784 scene was the striking force of post-Law DD failing against DR G4's rubbery defense, not any cutting or piercing failure.


B Rabbit said:


> They say Gamma Knife weakend Doffy so much that he dropped several tiers in power


I mean, if you don't think the organ shredding, the impaling, the immediate post-shredding electrocution, & the unguarded Red Hawk (all attributed to Law) intensely had a bearing on that combatant's performance then that's your valid opinion. Clearly, I don't think that makes a lick of sense with the narrative pushy weight of Law at the time or the panel-emphasis used, _but_ I'm not confident I'll be the one to convince you of this 6-7 years after those chapters and oodles of noodles of forum rehashes of this.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## B Rabbit (Sep 12, 2021)

> The feats and portrayal speak for themselves IMO, along with the kept 'Joker' moniker vs Queen/King/Jack.
> 
> DD is a different type of combatant than Cracker. The means through which DD overcame G4 did not appear replicable for Cracker, and vice-versa. Even against one another, DD gets a substantial matchup advantage against Cracker simply by virtue of how many of their traits stack up. Furthermore, nothing connects Cracker and Queen in any real way. They're in different crews, and have different evaluations of their threat levels by the government. Queen is not _inherently a level above_ Cracker in combat.



Traits such as? Doflaming doesn't even have the DC to break Cracker's biscuit armor?



> 1) I didn't interpret Luffy deciding to dodge the unHardened Awakening string attacks as PIS.


Never claimed you did. 


> 2) DD showed later that he can, in fact, use remote Hardening on many of giant tendrils at once which would dramatically increase cutting or piercing capabilities, and just didn't in G4 round 1 (for compelling reasons I'm sure  ).


Which again, doesn't show he can hurt G4, because he did infact use this against G4.


> 3) Post-Law DD was capable of outlasting the offense of DR G4, while likely taking much more damage than he would have otherwise per the debilitating effects of the Law-enabled wounds. _I personally_ do not care much about the point of ironing-out whether or not DD's non-Holy-Assassin moves could harm DR G4 because it seemed to me that in any fresh 1v1, the G4 mode would be cleanly outlasted and better fought against so it becomes moot. Spider-bird still wins whether or not the unHardened Awakening strings truly couldn't scratch DR G4.


I need the proof.


> 4) I'll go out on a limb and _presume_ the failure of the 2nd Athlete Thread contributes significantly to your perception that a fresh DD couldn't _possibly_ have harmed DR G4 with his piercing or cutting attacks (bar the Holy Assassin thing), and I'll simply point out that the mechanism of Athlete Thread was to cut *after* the blunt-force kick lands. The 784 roundhouse was stopped in the first place. Oda shows us DD's foot-tip stopped in Luffy's side, with the sharp [non-Awakening] strings *produced behind DD's ankle* which would cut the target as they're blasted away like Luffy was pre-G4 in 782 (seemingly through his Hardened guard).


I hope people know DC doesn't diminish based on Stamina.


> Critically, that 784 scene was the striking force of post-Law DD failing against DR G4's rubbery defense, not any cutting or piercing failure.


Awesome, but we still know Cracker indeed could cut Luffy. 


> I mean, if you don't think the organ shredding, the impaling, the immediate post-shredding electrocution, & the unguarded Red Hawk (all attributed to Law) intensely had a bearing on that combatant's performance then that's your valid opinion. Clearly, I don't think that makes a lick of sense with the narrative pushy weight of Law at the time or the panel-emphasis used, _but_ I'm not confident I'll be the one to convince you of this 6-7 years after those chapters and oodles of noodles of forum rehashes of this.


I agree that it did, but it is pure headcanon and can't be proven it dropped him several layers in power.  The safe, and simplest conclusion is that even with awakening he couldn't hurt g4.

Reactions: Like 4


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## Datassassin (Sep 12, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Traits such as? Doflaming doesn't even have the DC to break Cracker's biscuit armor?


As a baseline, the process of Awakening is the mild reality-warping of inanimate matter into the production of a person's DF, as if from their own body. The only way to stop a piece of matter from being affected by Awakening should be Haki application like with DF powers otherwise, meaning the dispersed Biscuit Soldiers of Cracker's should be fully vulnerable to transformation into strings (just like DD turned full-buildings/earth into strings). A counterpoint of course could be "well Cracker could put COA in the soldiers", but we've a) never had a case of remote non-Awakening COA application + B) that process of spreading COA out over many soldiers for a fight would be draining on one's Haki reserves & it's not a feat I'd be willing to just give to Cracker for no reason. The process of using one's DF through Awakening is likely far easier and less draining than sustaining COA remotely over many people-sized masses for a whole battle.

The soldiers are also an incredibly linear defense; strings can go around, under, over, and through their guards to reach Cracker. He would be very compelled to leave his biscuit soldier in order to better maneuver around the omnidirectional strings, especially when the ground beneath his feet becomes string and he can be flipped or tossed.

Separately, there's the issue of the soldier being able to be wrapped in Parasite, which would certainly influence Cracker to abandon his paralyzed Crackerbot (lest he enjoy just getting whittled away at for the rest of the battle, if not drowned). There's also of course the disparity in mobility or range to consider.

The idea that the Holy Assassin bullets, as DD's "ultimate move", can collectively get through the armor is openly an assumption. There exists no *real* way to assess the strength of that move because it was bested by a move of Luffy's that would crash through *anything* Cracker had as well before cracking the island in half. I've opted to not _irrationally lowball it_, as there's obviously a huge amount of space between 'a single WCI Kong Gun' and 'a DR King Kong Gun' in terms of force, especially since the Kong Gun had Cracker bleeding after breaking through the shield.


B Rabbit said:


> Never claimed you did.


If Luffy was dodging the unHardened Awakening strings because he _needed to_ and not from PIS, then it stands to reason he considered the possibility of being harmed by those attacks. If they could do nothing but bounce off of his form, then he wouldn't need to evade any.


B Rabbit said:


> Which again, doesn't show he can hurt G4, because he did infact use this against G4.


I'm fairly certain you're mistaken on that. We see the giant Hardened tendrils (created from buildings) used solely against the gladiators, inducing one of the cooler shots in the manga:
*Spoiler*: __ 







Those large/fat Hardened tendrils were not used against G4 Luffy at any point on-panel. Even the smaller Hardened tendrils (like for Flap Thread) weren't used against G4, but rather were stabbing into Luffy's normal Hardened torso _before_ entering G4. After G4 is re-activated, the sole attack DD uses is the Holy Assassin thing which as you know was overcome by King Kong Gun. You don't have a single visible instance of DD using Hardened strings on G4's body for cutting/piercing attempts, especially not his larger general Awakening tendrils.


B Rabbit said:


> I need the proof.



Of what exactly? If a grievously wounded DD already outlasted G4 *canonically*, what makes you think a healthy PIS-less DD would fare worse or similarly?


B Rabbit said:


> I hope people know DC doesn't diminish based on Stamina.


Good thing this isn't some mere issue of stamina on DC then. The idea that a One Piece combatant's bodily motions, including strikes, wouldn't be negatively impacted by massive amounts of physical damage is absurd. The fact remains that the Athlete Thread exchange in question is *useless* for evaluation of DD's cutting or piercing power against DR G4. _You don't actually have any good examples to use for that, _as Oda didn't draw any.


B Rabbit said:


> Awesome, but we still know Cracker indeed could cut Luffy.


Cracker cut into Luffy's extended G4 arm in a surprise Hardened slash. Can you cite any similar cutting attempt of DD's that failed? You know, any such scene of DD's Hardened strings just failing where Cracker's sword succeeded.


B Rabbit said:


> I agree that it did, but it is pure headcanon and can't be proven it dropped him several layers in power. The safe, and simplest conclusion is that even with awakening he couldn't hurt g4.


It's not the safest _or_ simplest conclusion when even post-Law DD's *entire* offense wasn't tested against DR Luffy's G4 body (Hardened strings from giant Awakening tendrils or otherwise). There's an utter absence of *bad* showings for post-Law DD's cutting or piercing power against G4's body in round 1 or hospital-tier DD's in round 2 _because there's *no* showings_, thus your conjecture isn't more firmly based in fact.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 12, 2021)

dd is weak as shit

Reactions: Agree 2 | Disagree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 13, 2021)

I know it's hard for some to reconcile, but Luffy potentially defeating Kaido means that Sanji will be capable of giving him a really tough fight also. Something far outside of Doflamingo's scope. That's just where we're at. So hang onto your oh so precious feats while you still can I guess.


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## Vivo Diez (Sep 13, 2021)

Queen>Jack>=Cracker>Doflamingo

Sanji wins ofc...

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Corax (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji mid. If he can hold YC2 Queen in hybrid and dodge/hit him he should do the same vs Dofla. Mid. only because he will need a lot of DJ to put him down. In case he'll need Hell Memories possibly low spectrum of high.


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## TheNirou (Sep 13, 2021)

B Rabbit said:


> Why is Doffy so wanked on this forum.
> 
> *This is literally the only place on the internet that wanks Doffy to this extreme.*
> 
> Sanji low diffs. When Doffy comes back with his powercreeps it'll be more fair.



You probably never saw OP community on Twitter

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Gokou08 (Sep 13, 2021)

People really believe Doffy is capable of beating a member of the M3 2 arcs later, bet that in the final war people will make threads "Doffy vs Luffy" smh. 

Little PayPay can give Doffy High Diff. 
Sanji wins.


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

This fight happened on panel, and Donflamingo won with mid-to-low difficulty. He also tanked Gear 4 Luffy. While I think Sanji has grown stronger since then, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that his kicks in base have surpassed Gear 4 Luffy's attack potency. I don't particularly subscribe to A>B>C logic, especially in this case, where current Base Sanji isn't actually doing damage to Queen yet. Seriously, wait for him to get his power-up before expecting this matchup to have changed massively, IMHO.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Gokou08 (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> This fight happened on panel, and Donflamingo won with mid-to-low difficulty. He also tanked Gear 4 Luffy. While I think Sanji has grown stronger since then, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that his kicks in base have surpassed Gear 4 Luffy's attack potency. I don't particularly subscribe to A>B>C logic, especially in this case, where current Base Sanji isn't actually doing damage to Queen yet. Seriously, wait for him to get his power-up before expecting this matchup to have changed massively, IMHO.


I agree with this 100% obviously, but we have to take a notion that Queen is far but far more durable than Doffy, heck he may even be more durable than Katakuri, so Sanji not hurting Queen doesn't mean he does not hurt Doffy, the latter said Sanji was strong at that time. 
Plus Sanji is feeling weird in the fight, he might disrupt he's fighting style.


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## Great Potato (Sep 13, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> I know it's hard for some to reconcile, but Luffy potentially defeating Kaido means that Sanji will be capable of giving him a really tough fight also.



I wouldn't go that far

Luffy beat Doflamingo and Katakuri, but Sanji would have been mopped by either of them during those arcs


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 13, 2021)

Yes Sanji wins. His attacks are strong enough to make Queen go Hybrid, so he wrecks DD

Reactions: Agree 2 | Winner 2


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## Amol (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji mid diffs.
Anyone who thinks DD has any chance of winning here must be still living in 2013. They need to come back to the present.

Reactions: Agree 5 | Funny 1


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Amol said:


> Sanji mid diffs.
> Anyone who thinks DD has any chance of winning here must be still living in 2013. They need to come back to the present.


Do you think current Base Sanji (pre-powerup) is stronger than Dressrosa arc Gear 4 Luffy? If so, why?


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## Gokou08 (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Do you think current Base Sanji (pre-powerup) is stronger than Dressrosa arc Gear 4 Luffy? If so, why?


But he doesn't need to be that much above G4 Luffy, that Luffy trashed Mingo hard, and yes Wano Base Sanji is comparable to DR G4 Luffy.


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## Amol (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Do you think current Base Sanji (pre-powerup) is stronger than Dressrosa arc Gear 4 Luffy? If so, why?


Yes. Of Course. Current Base Sanji is keeping up with Hybrid Queen. He is causing Queen pain without even using his higher attacks.
Not to mention it is common sense. Strawhats gets stronger after every arc.
Dressrosa is like 3 arcs and almost a decade ago thing. Sanji obviously has jumped tiers since then.

I rated you tier-specialist for your comment that DD "tanked" G4. He did no such thing. G4 absolutely demolished him. Tanking implies taking on some attack with no to minimal attacks.


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Amol said:


> Yes. Of Course. Current Base Sanji is keeping up with Hybrid Queen. He is causing Queen pain without even using his higher attacks.
> Not to mention it is common sense. Strawhats gets stronger after every arc.
> Dressrosa is like 3 arcs and almost a decade ago thing. Sanji obviously has jumped tiers since then.
> 
> I rated you tier-specialist for your comment that DD "tanked" G4. He did no such thing. G4 absolutely demolished him. Tanking implies taking on some attack with no to minimal attacks.


"keeping up with" as if Queen has speed feats. He's doing about as much damage as Monster Point Chopper was. Queen literally outright told us that he barely felt his blows. The very fact that Sanji needs a powerup suggests that his base form isn't good enough to tango with Hybrid Queen anymore than Monster Chopper was.

Seriously, there's like a 98% chance that Sanji is getting a powerup in the next 1-2 chapters, followed almost certainly by numerous high level feats. Can we please wait until then before we start making crazy assumptions about his potential strength growth? Until then, I'm not going to simply assume that Sanji magically grew strong enough to damage an endurance freak like Donflamingo cuz "3 arcs passed" when in the very last arc he was in he couldn't even damage Oven or Daifuku with sneak attacks.


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## Amol (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> "keeping up with" as if Queen has speed feats. He's doing about as much damage as Monster Point Chopper was. Queen literally outright told us that he barely felt his blows. The very fact that Sanji needs a powerup suggests that his base form isn't good enough to tango with Hybrid Queen anymore than Monster Chopper was.
> 
> Seriously, there's like a 98% chance that Sanji is getting a powerup in the next 1-2 chapters, followed almost certainly by numerous high level feats. Can we please wait until then before we start making crazy assumptions about his potential strength growth? Until then, I'm not going to simply assume that Sanji magically grew strong enough to damage an endurance freak like Donflamingo cuz "3 arcs passed" when in the very last arc he was in he couldn't even damage Oven or Daifuku with sneak attacks.


Sanji's power-up is RS.
Everything other than RS is something that he always had. He is going to use the same attacks he always had for a large portion of the fight. I am not saying he would not use some new attacks but they would be part of his usual martial arts. 
Sanji just got buffed in stats and haki just like Luffy or Zoro. 
Strawhats always gets these kinds of buffs. Really not my problem if you want to ignore this well-established fact.


Also, Queen has no speed feats?
He reacted to Luffy(and Marco) just fine, didn't he?

Why the hell I would assume that Queen is a slow character?
That is just like your assumption.
By your own logic, I guess DD is a slow character as Dressrosa G2 Luffy was more than capable of blitzing him.

inb4 Queen is slower than Dressrosa G2.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji wins.

Mid diff. 

doffy gets his cheeks clapped


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## Datassassin (Sep 13, 2021)

Amol said:


> Sanji mid diffs.
> Anyone who thinks DD has any chance of winning here must be still living in 2013. They need to come back to the present.


Well, if the former High Oracle of the "Ulti Is DD Level" Church says so, this must be the case  



Amol said:


> Also, Queen has no speed feats?
> He reacted to Luffy(and Marco) just fine, didn't he?





Amol said:


> inb4 Queen is slower than Dressrosa G2.


Your Eminence...reaction-speed is not transferrable to _movement_ speed. Queen has _very_ fast transformations, and great reactions which capitalize on his superb reach. He also very explicitly still has a lack of movement feats, feats of him moving his legs and ending up somewhere else in a measurably 'fast' way. Even Punk Hazard Luffy was depicted casually escaping the center of an explosion and getting distance from it. Yes, DR G2 has faster movement speed than Queen unless Queen gets showings or solid implications of the contrary.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Tier Specialist 2


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Amol said:


> Sanji's power-up is RS.
> Everything other than RS is something that he always had. He is going to use the same attacks he always had for a large portion of the fight. I am not saying he would not use some new attacks but they would be part of his usual martial arts.
> Sanji just got buffed in stats and haki just like Luffy or Zoro.
> Strawhats always gets these kinds of buffs. Really not my problem if you want to ignore this well-established fact.
> ...


Here's a question, then.

How strong/fast is Monster Chopper, in your estimation? Dude also has feats of "keeping up" with Queen, while having to deal with Persopero at the same time. 

Both managed to hit Queen repeatedly. Neither were outsped.

Chopper is also a Strawhat and therefore benefits from the same arc buffs, no?


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## Amol (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Here's a question, then.
> 
> How strong/fast is Monster Chopper, in your estimation? Dude also has feats of "keeping up" with Queen, while having to deal with Persopero at the same time.
> 
> ...


I feel like I am being trolled here.

If you think Sanji and Chopper are performing same against Queen then I really have nothing to talk with you. 

It is clearly a lost cause from the get go.


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## JayK (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji trashes this fodder

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## oiety (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji is already tossing a YC2 around and injuring him with kicks in base.
Once his body finishes changing because of the raid suit this will likely be low diff, but even right now it isn't more than high.


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Amol said:


> I feel like I am being trolled here.
> 
> If you think Sanji and Chopper are performing same against Queen then I really have nothing to talk with you.
> 
> It is clearly a lost cause from the get go.


Excuse me for pointing out how your argument has no basis. 

"Sanji is fighting with Queen, and Queen >> Donflamingo, therefore Sanji > Donflamingo!!!"

Chopper _also_ fought with Queen, therefore Chopper must also be > Donflamingo, too, right? It's literally the exact same logic. 

Sure, Chopper inflicted zero meaningful damage to Queen. But guess what? So did Sanji. The only person to meaningfully harm Queen (in his own words, no less) has been Marco.

Like I said, Sanji is slated to get some massive buffs that will _allow _him to take out Queen. At which point he will be comfortably above Donflamingo. But as he is right now, his feats are barely any better than Monster Chopper's feats. 

Just sit tight and wait until then.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## kumae (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji evolved since dressrosa 
RS Sanji:low-midd diff 
Sanji with the fire ability:midd-high diff


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## Conxc (Sep 13, 2021)

Dog..
.

Their fight wasn't that long ago. Sanji got RS to be able to keep up. He isn't all that in base. He's hitting Queen, yes, but dealing 0 dmg. He hasn't shown CoA prowess that says he can deal with Parasite, which even Jozu struggled with. What's his answer to Awakening? Base Sanji has not shown the growth where he can go from being no-diffed by Doffy to beating him, let alone mid-diff.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 13, 2021)

Base Sanji should be around high YC2 while Doffy is a mid-low YC3 combatant. 

Sanji wins most likels with *mid *(_high_) difficulty. He is about 1.5 YC steps above Doffy now.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> "Sanji is fighting with Queen, and Queen >> Donflamingo, therefore Sanji > Donflamingo!!!"
> 
> Chopper _also_ fought with Queen, therefore Chopper must also be > Donflamingo, too, right? It's literally the exact same logic.


no it's not

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Sep 13, 2021)

So Base Sanji is "YC2" level because he's attacking a "YC2" and dealing 0 dmg, and obviously won't beat said "YC2" without the RS? Got it.


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## OG sama (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanjis base is getting a power up in a couple of chapters, I would put that Sanji above Doflamingo but I’m not putting this one above DD just yet.

Queen has no speed feats or agility, he’s just been sitting there taking attacks from Sanji just fine and he’s also blocked attacks from Sanji just fine. That’s clear superiority over Sanji that he has at this moment, the matchup is going as it should, the faster character( Sanji) is landing more hits and therefore looks to be on his level but the slower character(Queen) is taking the attacks just fine, Sanji needs more firepower here and that’s obvious, he’s not hitting on even Marcos level offensively with his DJ as we have seen Marco do much more damage to Queen and even still Queen was practically ok.

Sanji doesn’t have the significant speed advantage against DD, nor is he hitting at G4 DR levels of offensive power so he still loses this matchup.

People just don’t pay attention to matchups and how characters stack up against each other depending on abilities and such around here.

Sanji as a speedster would have been giving Queen problems during the WCI arc because of the simple fact that Queen is a big ass dinosaur who isn’t very fast but rather extremely durable and resilient.

Like, how hard is that for people to understand? Sanji is about to get a PU that will put him above DD in a few chapters, just because Sanji is doing better vs Queen due to the matchup doesn’t mean he’s capable of beating DD, let’s be patient, this next PU will definitely put him above DD, but Base Sanji shouldn’t be stronger than DD yet imo til the exoskeleton PU. He doesn’t hit as hard as DR G4 Luffy and that wasn’t even enough, Luffy needed two rounds. Sanji probably does better than he did on DR but he would need the same PU he’s getting right now in order to beat DD unless people think Sanji is hitting on DR G4 levels and I have not seen that at all personally, maybe KG levels but definitely not anything higher than that.

I get DD is old news but people should still respect him, because like him or not his power is still relevant to YC commander levels like calamities and SC. If DD was a beast pirate he would still be above any F6 by a significant amount.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Dog..
> .
> 
> Their fight wasn't that long ago. Sanji got RS to be able to keep up. He isn't all that in base. He's hitting Queen, yes, but dealing 0 dmg. He hasn't shown CoA prowess that says he can deal with Parasite, which even Jozu struggled with. What's his answer to Awakening? Base Sanji has not shown the growth where he can go from being no-diffed by Doffy to beating him, let alone mid-diff.


I agree. At least if this was Raid Suit Sanji, I could legitimately make an argument for the dude winning. But all these people claiming that Sanji mid-diffs in _Base_, ugh...



truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> no it's not


What's the difference?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> I agree. At least if this was Raid Suit Sanji, I could legitimately make an argument for the dude winning. But all these people claiming that Sanji mid-diffs in _Base_, ugh...
> 
> 
> What's the difference?


That's just how it goes around here. I mean, they think Chopper gives Doffy a fight.


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

Conxc said:


> That's just how it goes around here. I mean, they think Chopper gives Doffy a fight.


That's the thing though, . If they were logically consistent then they would, however they aren't basing any of their opinions on feats or logic. It's purely an argument of feelings, portrayal, and popular opinion. Nothing more.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Corax (Sep 13, 2021)

Current base Sanji is clearly different from DR Sanji. He has much better CoO (dodged FS bean from Kata),speed (same feat),strengh (slammed Queen away and took Pero with him). Also he used only Spectre vs Dofla (low AP attack),for example he didn't use Hell memories (high AP attack). He wasn't going all out either.


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## Conxc (Sep 13, 2021)

Corax said:


> Current base Sanji is clearly different from DR Sanji. He has much better CoO (dodged FS bean from Kata),speed (same feat),strengh (slammed Queen away and took Pero with him). Also he used only Spectre vs Dofla (low AP attack),for example he didn't use Hell memories (high AP attack). He wasn't going all out either.


The same Sanji that you're talking about with the better CoO struggled against Daifuku. Speed-wise, he's always been fast, but his reactions are still not great. Doffy no-sold everything Sanji threw at him with s smile and almost 2 pieced him if not for Law. He literally got no-diffed. That whole scuffle was intended to show the chasm between him and Doffy.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 13, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> What's the difference?


everything


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## Baroxio (Sep 13, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> everything


lol ok


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 13, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Sanjis base is getting a power up in a couple of chapters, I would put that Sanji above Doflamingo but I’m not putting this one above DD just yet.
> 
> Queen has no speed feats or agility, he’s just been sitting there taking attacks from Sanji just fine and he’s also blocked attacks from Sanji just fine. That’s clear superiority over Sanji that he has at this moment, the matchup is going as it should, the faster character( Sanji) is landing more hits and therefore looks to be on his level but the slower character(Queen) is taking the attacks just fine, Sanji needs more firepower here and that’s obvious, he’s not hitting on even Marcos level offensively with his DJ as we have seen Marco do much more damage to Queen and even still Queen was practically ok.
> 
> ...





_Queen isn't slow. 

In base he was casually reacting to Udon Luffy and catching his attacks.

In full Zoan he intercepted both Luffy and Zoro in their attempt to reach the roof. 

In Hybrid he was fast enough to take advantage of the opening King created on Zoro, for Sanji to have to intercept his attack before it hits Zoro. He also later on, as you pointed out, was fast enough to defend himself from Sanji's DJ attack with Hardening.


I'm hesitant about making certain claims about base Sanji right now in general, but i think you are overlooking some things in this post and downplaying him to a certain extent.

- He broke Zoan Queens metalic teeth and took Perospero out of action for a while with a single attack. I think that's quite impressive. Also interesting to note, it's a very impressive CoO/speed feat as well because Peropero had already launched his arrows at the Samurai and Queen was right next to Chopper and about to bite him before Sanji even broke through the wall into the Live Stage floor, and he still somehow orchestrated his new technique so that it solves both situations.

- He made someone like Queen, a monster who qualifies into the same bounty range as Marco and King, to switch to his Hybrid form after only attacking him twice.

- Up to this point we have yet to see Hybrid Queen damage Sanji on panel a single time. We've had 

+ Sanji dodging all of Queen's rapid fire lasers successfuly
+ Sanji making Queen bleed even without DJ
+ Sanji getting a parallel with Zoro's Oni Giri when they attack King and Queen. and both Calamities recover in a similar manner from their attacks
+ Sanji blocking Queen's named attack without using a named attack himself or Haki
+ Sanji making Queen use Hardening to fend off Sanji's DJ kicks


I do think that anyone who believes base Sanji right now > Queen is getting carried away, obviously. That would make base Sanji Marco level or higher, which is insane considering he's hinted to go through another significant boost soon, and he still has the RS on top of that.


I'm sure Queen will also show more stuff and Sanji will have to use the RS at some point, but i don't think anyone expected for base Sanji to perform at this level, especially before another power up, so i do think this Sanji has to be stronger than he was in the past even right now, and i doesn't look to be by a small margin._

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1 | Winner 4


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## OG sama (Sep 13, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Queen isn't slow.
> 
> In base he was casually reacting to Udon Luffy and catching his attacks.
> 
> ...


Excellent analysis I have no counters to this, he’s definitely stronger than he was before, not sure how but he just is by feats. He went from struggling a bit with P1 to forcing Queen to use hybrid, pretty big jump, must have really leveled up in that 9 day period before the raid and now he’s got a PU coming soon to his already strong base, can’t wait to see what this PU does as far as the strength difference between Zoro and Sanji, they will probably be even closer now.

Reactions: Like 3 | Friendly 1


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 13, 2021)

Sanji destroys him

Reactions: Like 2


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 13, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> I wouldn't go that far
> 
> Luffy beat Doflamingo and Katakuri, but Sanji would have been mopped by either of them during those arcs


Those were arcs Sanji had was sidelined in.

He's back in the spotlight, along with Zoro, as the two wings of the future Pirate King. And we know that Sanji is close to Luffy in strength, and would most certainly give him a tough fight.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Typhon (Sep 13, 2021)

This thread annoys me. I don't know if it's the downplay of Sanji or the downplay of Queen that's getting to me.

I'm an avid defender of Doffy when it comes to 3rd commander tier fighters like Cracker, Jack, and Jozu. There's no reason whatsoever to think Doffy is on the same tier as the 1 billion bounty pirates. It's is far more likely Queen is comparable to King or Katakuri then he is to Doffy and Sanji is currently getting on his ass. 

Anyway Sanji wins

Reactions: Like 5 | Winner 1


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## Conxc (Sep 13, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Those were arcs Sanji had was sidelined in.
> 
> He's back in the spotlight, along with Zoro, as the two wings of the future Pirate King. *And we know that Sanji is close to Luffy in strength*, and would most certainly give him a tough fight.


What manga are you reading, bud?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Datassassin (Sep 13, 2021)

Typhon said:


> I'm an avid defender of Doffy when it comes to *3rd commander tier* fighters like Cracker, Jack, and Jozu. There's no reason whatsoever to think Doffy is on the *same tier as the 1 billion bounty pirates*


It's important to bear in mind that "YC3/4/etc"_ aren't reaaaaal_ because characters are not evaluated against a strength standard for their position, as each Yonko underling in a crew only needs to contribute to that Yonko's overall threat level in a way _sufficient-enough_ to make taking on that Yonko _too dangerous for any other Yonko_. If a character is articulated as the 3rd strongest member of a Yonko crew, that has nothing to do with how strong the third-best figure in _some separate other_ crew would be. They could end up comparable or not, it's forever open-ended and determined by _individual_ depictions, not by isolated crew hierarchy. For example: Smoothie has the 2nd highest bounty of any Big Mom underling at nearly 1 billion, but there's no meaningful comparison in her strength level to Queen's (2nd highest bounty in Kaido's crew) or Jozu's with the depiction she has received thus far.

This flows into how bounty in itself _clearly_ has not innately equated to strength, and we've known this for many years. Cracker's bounty in the first place is questionable given his bounty photo and epithet are not referential of his true form _and_ true combat abilities. Bounty is always from the limited in-universe perspective of governmental officials. From characters like Robin, Luffy, pre-skip Blackbeard, Law, Enel, & pre-skip Kidd, we see how the government continually uses a plethora of criteria to determine "threat level" as it relates to their objectives. Knowledge of taboo information of any relevant kind, tendency to harm citizenry or property, associations with flagged individuals or organizations through blood or comradery, interference with governmental operations, the nature of one's exact abilities or DF, and *perceived* strength all can play a role.

With DD's lineage, deeper governmental knowledge, elite information on the underworld, _now-known_ crimes against other royals and nations, undermining of the marines through a long-time high ranking spy, strengthening the forces of a Yonko (one of the most violent), facilitation of dangerous figures like Caesar Clown, the public reveal of his country-theft and all the diverse toy disappearances, a known disruptive ability-set, public war actions in Marineford, and a perceived formidable nature by Aokiji...yea, DD easily warrants a bounty over 1 billion, and it _still_ wouldn't be any iron assurance of his power known to the reader.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Great Potato (Sep 13, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Those were arcs Sanji had was sidelined in.
> 
> He's back in the spotlight, along with Zoro, as the two wings of the future Pirate King. And we know that Sanji is close to Luffy in strength, and would most certainly give him a tough fight.



In what world was Sanji sidelined on WCI? The entire plot was about him, Oda even called it the Year of Sanji. Just because he disappointed doesn't mean he was sidelined. He was far more central there than Wano.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## OG sama (Sep 13, 2021)

Imagine comparing Doflamingo to the Fodder flying 6

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Mylesime (Sep 13, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> It's important to bear in mind that "YC3/4/etc"_ aren't reaaaaal_ because characters are not evaluated against a strength standard for their position, as each Yonko in a crew only needs to contribute to that Yonko's overall threat level in a way _sufficient-enough_ to make taking on that Yonko _too dangerous for any other Yonko_. If a character is articulated as the 3rd strongest member of a Yonko crew, that has nothing to do with how strong the third-best figure in _some separate other_ crew would be. They could end up comparable or not, it's forever open-ended and determined by _individual_ depictions, not by isolated crew hierarchy. For example: Smoothie has the 2nd highest bounty of any Big Mom underling at nearly 1 billion, but there's no meaningful comparison in her strength level to Queen's (2nd highest bounty in Kaido's crew) or Jozu's with the depiction she has



What you qualify as a level "sufficient-enough" to make the outcome of an hypothetic clash against another Yonko too dangerous and costly, resulting in the fall of both empires is exactly why those designations make sense and are widely used.
Let's be real we all have an idea concerning the match ups in an all out war between the Emperors.... Big Mom VS Kaido,etc,etc

Of course it's used loosely and a "YC2" from a crew could very well be weaker than a "YC3" from another crew, but most people know exactly what these terms mean, and why we can't consider them as absolute.
The Yonkos military might are embodied by their commanders, and officers mainly, with a majority of foot soldiers.
There was a reason the CPO stated that several subordinates could take out hundreds, and for the strongest thousands of enemies.
A reason why Luffy stated on Zou that Sanji was worth a thousand man, Zoro answered that he was worth 2 thousands, similar scale used by Kinemon to describe Denjiro or Ashura Doji's worths..... both presences judged as almost mandatory for the raid with Kawamatsu's.

These officers are equivalent to Division, corps, IRL etc. It's a shonen, just like with FMA, HxH , Tower of God.... you name it.
It is no rocket science, we all expect for example different match ups between the Strawhats against BlackBeard's captains.
Similarly outside of the weakest or strongest Mugiwaras, the tobbi ropos faced the core members of luffy's crew.....
It gives us a range, contrary to what most people consider as the biggest parameters (them feats) we know based on the structure of the New World and the Yonkou crew that:
*The calamities can't low diff the Sweet commanders..... with so few members on this unit it gives us an idea.....
If anything Marco's portrayal, performances and tactics against Kaido's commanders once again highlights that it can't be anything other than a tough fight for any commander facing his counter part in the opposite crew.
Otherwise the outcome would be obvious with a crucial officer free of his moves and assistances.....*

This is not a coincidence if Kaido's top two is facing Luffy's main subordinates currently.....
It generally plays out like this in OP....
People just overblow the gap and the difference between commanders.



Datassassin said:


> This flows into how bounty in itself _clearly_ has not innately equated to strength, and we've known this for many years. Cracker's bounty in the first place is questionable given his bounty photo and epithet are not referential of his true form _and_ true combat abilities. Bounty is always from the limited in-universe perspective of governmental officials. From characters like Robin, Luffy, pre-skip Blackbeard, Law, Enel, & pre-skip Kidd, we see how the government continually uses a plethora of criteria to determine "threat level" as it relates to their objectives. Knowledge of taboo information of any relevant kind, tendency to harm citizenry or property, associations with flagged individuals or organizations through blood or comradery, interference with governmental operations, the nature of one's exact abilities or DF, and *perceived* strength all can play a role.



Similarly once again, bounties do take strength into account to some extent too. It gives us a general idea.
Like with the previous point, few people don't realize that Bounties aren't absolute, few would use it to claim that Marco is weaker than King just because of a few million berries....
But we can't deny that Marco used King and Queen bounties to highlight how tough it was to deal with both of them at the same time.
He wasn't highligting their foreign policy nor their behaviour towards populations.....

While you're right to put bounties and ranks into perspective, they are still important parameters to evaluate a characters importance, often linked to strength in a battle shonen. Specially coupled with other elements, such as role in the crew or appartenance to the same crew......

It's far more worthy than isolated feats in many cases, Chopper lasted 30 minutes against Queen and survived attacks from Big Mom, yet based on hype, portrayal and indirectly other straw hats performances...... Who's who based on his rank, and bounty despite inferior feats is very likely stronger than Chopper......

I'm not event comparing Queen's CV with Crakers (his feats are far superior) , on top of all of this, Queen is an old co worker of Vegapunk, member of MADS and a specialist when it comes to biological warfare.

We have no absolute rankings, but everything leads us to believe that Queen is a bigger threat than Craker (combat wise too) and that similarly Smoothie is considered a bigger threat than her brother for example.
When Urouge beat Snack, Craker was sent, when Luffy arrived after beating Doffy he was sent once again, with an higher bounty and these missions, there would be no point saving Smoothie from the field instead of Craker, which coupled with her laziness adds up.




Datassassin said:


> With DD's lineage, deeper governmental knowledge, elite information on the underworld, _now-known_ crimes against other royals and nations, undermining of the marines through a long-time high ranking spy, strengthening the forces of a Yonko (one of the most violent), facilitation of dangerous figures like Caesar Clown, the public reveal of his country-theft and all the diverse toy disappearances, a known disruptive ability-set, public war actions in Marineford, and a perceived formidable nature by Aokiji...yea, DD easily warrants a bounty over 1 billion, and it _still_ wouldn't be any iron assurance of his power known to the reader.



The fact that you could evision a bounty is proof that this system respects a certain logic (no absolute obviously).
Using all the datas we have, you can reach this conclusion regarding Doffy's hypothetic new bounty. And you're right, He's a commander level threat.
Yet you're almost contradicting yourself since, it's based on similar criterias that Queen and the other commanders got their bounties.
Doffy would be near a billion , give or take, but he could very well bet at 900 million and it would be perfectly fair..... Sabo was at 600 millions, Ace 550.....
You're focusing on Doffy's network and abilities, Queen and King are as formidable if not more......

I do think Doffy is underestimated, going all out with Awakening, he is not a fodder to base Sanji even now.
If he were on Onigashima he would be a Big Player, just like the Dukes,etc......
I do find it funny tough to see some participants willing to use common sense and putting feats into context all of suden....
Sanji's wank bothers some?


Once upon a time it was the complete opposite concerning the cook, which led some to make some of the dumbest conclusions i read on his power level (Drake humiliated him, Page 1 won.......

If irony could kill.....

We are the ones complicating this shit, if only we were all aware of it.
Oda doesn't give a shit if collectively we give abitrary grades to those characters.
For him Perospero, Inu, Neko and Jack are ..... strong, have history= they fight.
Regardless if for us (straight out my ass for argument purpose)
Jack 88> Inu=Jack 84> Perospero 81......
He doesn't care, plot and motives can explain a victory from any of those guys as long as they're relatively close.
No rocket science.


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## Datassassin (Sep 13, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> but most people know exactly what these terms mean, and why we can't give them as absolute.


When there's popular, recurring discourse like whether a Yonko First Mate is actually "YC1+" or something (despite, of course, inherently contributing 1/5th to what "Yonko First Mate level" even *is*), then I have little confidence enough people _do_ understand that these fandom terms are weightless in the ways they are often used.


Mylesime said:


> But we can't deny that Marco used King and Queen bounties to highlight how tough it was to deal with both of them at the same time.
> He wasn't highligting their foreign policy nor their behaviour towards populations.....
> 
> While you're right to put bounties and ranks in perspectives, they are still important parameters to evaluate a characters importance, often linked to strength in a battle shonen.
> It's far more worthy than isolated feats in many cases, Chopper lasted 30 minutes against Queen and survived attacks from Big Mom, yet based on hype, portrayal and indirectly other straw hats performances...... Who's who based on his rank, and bounty despite inferior feats is very likely stronger than Chopper......


Most characters in One Piece don't have the advantage of the perspective of the outside reader. We have more context for all the characters' bounties, how the government operates, and the accuracy of linkage of bounty to combat strength. There can be an association, sure, like experiencing rain on a cloudy day. However, the sight of clouds doesn't ensure any actual precipitation or even the amount of the downpour. As bounties indicate threat level, the go-to in the OPverse is to examine something easy to judge: power. Bounty is still, however, not a true stand-in for "power level". Chopper and his meager bounty of '100' just further reinforces that the bounty game is strictly one of governmental perception, since we as the more-knowing reader can see that Chopper (through his expertise and combat strength) easily deserves a bounty to rival Supernovae.


Mylesime said:


> I'm not event comparing Queen's CV with Crakers, on top of all of this, Queen is an old co worker of Vegapunk, member of MADS and a specialist when it comes to biological warfare.
> 
> We have no absolute rankings, but everything leads us to believe that Queen is a bigger threat than Craker (combat wise too)





Mylesime said:


> Using all the datas we have, you can reach this conclusion regarding Doffy's hypothetic new bounty. He's a commander level threat.
> *Yet you're almost contradicting yourself since, it's based on similar criterias that Queen and the other commanders got their bounties.*


?? I haven't suggested Queen doesn't deserve his particular bounty, with all of his unique traits on top of his leadership role in Kaido's crew. I also don't intend to argue for Cracker's threat level vs Queen's, I merely highlighted how the government only references a _tiny slice_ of his DF powers (limb-creation) through his epithet and uses his Biscuit Soldier image (implying they don't know his full skill or scope of his DF). Cracker's bounty would likely substantially shift if they _in fact don't know_ the scope of his DF/his abilities in combat.


Mylesime said:


> Doffy would be near a billion , give or take, but he could very well bet at 900 million and it would be perfectly fair.....
> You're focusing on Doffy's network and abilities, Queen and King are as formidable if not more......


Personally, I don't see the sense of DD getting a bounty less than Smoothie's for the reasons outlined, but this doesn't really matter towards my "don't equate bounty with raw strength" stance nor towards actually arguing Sanji currently doesn't have the depiction to defeat DD much less _body him_ in the way firmly espoused by numerous posters here.


Mylesime said:


> Once upon a time it was the complete opposite concerning the cook, which led some to make some of the dumbest conclusions i read on his power level (Drake humiliated him, Page 1 won


Well the Drake exchanges _were_ indeed a bad look, & while Page One continued the Unfortunate Depiction train (in regards to Ranger Suit striking force getting directly outclassed), the _end_ of the Page One clash didn't suggest Sanji _would lose_ lmao. 

New showings of Sanji's, situated later in Wano relative to the earlier Drake/Page One content, would naturally take precedence for any evaluation of Sanji's strength in any case.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 13, 2021)

With knowledge? He mollywhops Doflamingo.

People forget he didn't understand that Doflamingo was fighting with strings. That seems to be the main factor in determining whether he can lock your limbs or not since he couldn't do the same with Law or Luffy.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> With knowledge? He mollywhops Doflamingo.
> 
> People forget he didn't understand that Doflamingo was fighting with strings. That seems to be the main factor in determining whether he can lock your limbs or not since he couldn't do the same with Law or Luffy.


Their CoA was also strong enough to overcome them. Even if Sanji knew, the result would be the same. He couldn’t do so much as burn a feather off Doffy’s coat. Doffy was toying with him and almost killed him -100 difficulty. He was *outclassed. *A lot of you need to go back and re-read that “fight”.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Great Potato said:


> In what world was Sanji sidelined on WCI? The entire plot was about him, Oda even called it the Year of Sanji. Just because he disappointed doesn't mean he was sidelined. He was far more central there than Wano.


He didn't fight anyone.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

OG sama said:


> Imagine comparing Doflamingo to the Fodder flying 6


They would each give Doflamingo a semi-difficult battle. About as much or more than DR Law gave to him, depending on the member.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> He didn't fight anyone.


Nah, he fought a bunch. He just either lost or looked pathetic. He baked a cake tho. He’s probably the WSC.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> With knowledge? He mollywhops Doflamingo.
> 
> *People forget he didn't understand that Doflamingo was fighting with strings. That seems to be the main factor in determining whether he can lock your limbs or not since he couldn't do the same with Law or Luffy.*


True.

Sanji wasn't as "fodderized" by Doflamingo as some like to imagine. He got really good hits off on him, and Doflamingo pointed out how powerful they were each time. Doflamingo casually dodged one of his attacks, and wasn't ever really threatened. But the only reason the fight was ended so quickly was because Sanji was caught off guard by Parasite.


Conxc said:


> Nah, he fought a bunch. He just either lost or looked pathetic. He baked a cake tho. He’s probably the WSC.


Does strongest cook include everyone that cooks or only true cooksmen?

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> True.
> 
> Sanji wasn't as "fodderized" by Doflamingo as some like to imagine. He got really good hits off on him, and Doflamingo pointed out how powerful they were each time. Doflamingo casually dodged one of his attacks, and wasn't ever really threatened. But the only reason the fight was ended so quickly was because Sanji was caught off guard by Parasite.
> 
> Does strongest cook include everyone that cooks or only true cooksmen?


“C” stands for chef. So anyone that you’d classify as a chef, or a *professional *cook. Nice try bud.


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## Mercurial (Sep 14, 2021)

Current RS Sanji > Current Base Sanji = Doflamingo >> WCI Sanji > PH/DR Sanji



Shunsuiju said:


> True.
> 
> Sanji wasn't as "fodderized" by Doflamingo as some like to imagine. He got really good hits off on him, and Doflamingo pointed out how powerful they were each time. Doflamingo casually dodged one of his attacks, and wasn't ever really threatened. But the only reason the fight was ended so quickly was because Sanji was caught off guard by Parasite.
> 
> Does strongest cook include everyone that cooks or only true cooksmen?


Doflamingo won the fight completely undamaged. While Sanji would have died.

And that happened when Doflamingo held back Awakening and his strongest moves.

The gap was massive.
After all, in the previous arc Sanji admitted to be weaker than Vergo ("That was close, if we continued to fight...") who is Doflamingo's underling.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> Current RS Sanji > Current Base Sanji = Doflamingo >> WCI Sanji > PH/DR Sanji
> 
> 
> *Doflamingo won the fight completely undamaged. While Sanji would have died.
> ...


Because of Parasite.

How do you know Sanji wasn't holding back any moves? Luffy didn't pull out G4 until the end of the Doflamingo fight, Zoro didn't pull out Ashura until he got to Kaido.


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## Mercurial (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Because of Parasite.
> 
> How do you know Sanji wasn't holding back any moves? Luffy didn't pull out G4 until the end of the Doflamingo fight, Zoro didn't pull out Ashura until he got to Kaido.


I know by... common sense?
Was he getting his ass kicked and going to get killed just for the lulz of it?

Rufy is Rufy, Zoro is Zoro.
Proof that Sanji held back, or gtfo. With your argument, everyone "could be holding back some move".


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

I’ll put it like this, Luffy and Doffy forced each other’s best moves out of each other. Doffy couldn’t handle Luffy the way he handled Sanji so he had to show a little more, and a little more until he wound up using Awakening. Same with Luffy, G2/G3 weren’t good enough so he had to pull out G4. Doffy just instantly shat on Sanji and was about to kill him neg diff. Huge difference. Oda portrayed a chasm between Doffy and Sanji.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Typhon (Sep 14, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> It's *important to bear in mind that "YC3/4/etc" aren't reaaaaal because characters are not evaluated against a strength standard for their position*, as each Yonko underling in a crew only needs to contribute to that Yonko's overall threat level in a way _sufficient-enough_ to make taking on that Yonko _too dangerous for any other Yonko_. If a character is articulated as the 3rd strongest member of a Yonko crew, that has nothing to do with how strong the third-best figure in _some separate other_ crew would be. They could end up comparable or not, it's forever open-ended and determined by _individual_ depictions, not by isolated crew hierarchy. For example: Smoothie has the 2nd highest bounty of any Big Mom underling at nearly 1 billion, but there's no meaningful comparison in her strength level to Queen's (2nd highest bounty in Kaido's crew) or Jozu's with the depiction she has received thus far.
> 
> This flows into how bounty in itself _clearly_ has not innately equated to strength, and we've known this for many years. Cracker's bounty in the first place is questionable given his bounty photo and epithet are not referential of his true form _and_ true combat abilities. Bounty is always from the limited in-universe perspective of governmental officials. From characters like Robin, Luffy, pre-skip Blackbeard, Law, Enel, & pre-skip Kidd, we see how the government continually uses a plethora of criteria to determine "threat level" as it relates to their objectives. Knowledge of taboo information of any relevant kind, tendency to harm citizenry or property, associations with flagged individuals or organizations through blood or comradery, interference with governmental operations, the nature of one's exact abilities or DF, and *perceived* strength all can play a role.
> 
> With DD's lineage, deeper governmental knowledge, elite information on the underworld, _now-known_ crimes against other royals and nations, undermining of the marines through a long-time high ranking spy, strengthening the forces of a Yonko (one of the most violent), facilitation of dangerous figures like Caesar Clown, the public reveal of his country-theft and all the diverse toy disappearances, a known disruptive ability-set, public war actions in Marineford, and a perceived formidable nature by Aokiji...yea, DD *easily warrants a bounty over 1 billion*, and it _still_ wouldn't be any iron assurance of his power known to the reader.


I'm just going to respond to the bolded. 

1. The term isn't real inverse obviously. It was created because that's how Oda has portrayed them. You can sit there and try to claim "Oh WG doesn't know the true value of Cracker", but that doesn't change the fact that Katakuri had clear superior portrayal to him and Luffy had to power up to beat Katakuri. King and Queen also have clear superior portrayal to Jack and so on. We've never seen Luffy care about bounties until he fought Katakuri. And it's been what? 3 or 4 times now that Oda has gone out of his way to highlight how dangerous 1 billion bounty pirates are 

2. Doflamingo does not warrant a 1 billion bounty. I went on a rant awhile ago about bounty inflation and how all a lot of these bounties don't make sense when we have Luffy and Jimbei as measuring sticks for the type of stuff you have to pull off just to get 400 million. While Doflamingo has a better case then Jack or Perospero, It's clear Oda is treating them closer to power levels then just actual threat.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> I know by... common sense?
> Was he getting his ass kicked and going to get killed just for the lulz of it?
> 
> Rufy is Rufy, Zoro is Zoro.
> Proof that Sanji held back, or gtfo. With your argument, everyone "could be holding back some move".


Zoro would have recieved the exact same treatment by Dofy there, don't know why you're bringing him into this.


Conxc said:


> *I’ll put it like this, Luffy and Doffy forced each other’s best moves out of each other. Doffy couldn’t handle Luffy the way he handled Sanji so he had to show a little more, and a little more until he wound up using Awakening.* Same with Luffy, G2/G3 weren’t good enough so he had to pull out G4. *Doffy just instantly shat on Sanji and was about to kill him neg diff.* Huge difference. Oda portrayed a chasm between Doffy and Sanji.


Or, you know, Luffy vs Doflamingo was an actual fight and Sanji vs Doflamingo was just a little clash?

Because of Parasite... Why do you guys keep ignoring this? Apart from that Sanji was doing just as well as Luffy did in G2 against Dofla.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro would have recieved the exact same treatment by Dofy there, don't know why you're bringing him into this.
> 
> Or, you know, Luffy vs Doflamingo was an actual fight and Sanji vs Doflamingo was just a little clash?
> 
> Because of Parasite... Why do you guys keep ignoring this? Apart from that Sanji was doing just as well as Luffy did in G2 against Dofla.


Yeah, the chasm between them is the difference between a clash and a full fledged fight. Lol

no he didn’t.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> no he didn’t.


How so? Doflamingo wasn't struggling with G2 any more than he was with DJ.


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## Mercurial (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Zoro would have recieved the exact same treatment by Dofy there, don't know why you're bringing him into this.
> 
> Or, you know, Luffy vs Doflamingo was an actual fight and Sanji vs Doflamingo was just a little clash?
> 
> Because of Parasite... Why do you guys keep ignoring this? Apart from that Sanji was doing just as well as Luffy did in G2 against Dofla.


Pal.

Doflamingo parried Sanji's Diable Jambe without needing to use CoA. And it was some of Sanji's strongest kicks we know.
Dofla parried that with his plume mantle lol.

Doflamingo had to use CoA to parry G2 Rufy's moves, moves far, far from being Rufy's strongest moves.

Do the math.
You are trying to twist a very simple reality.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> Pal.
> 
> Doflamingo parried Sanji's Diable Jambe without needing to use CoA. And it was some of Sanji's strongest kicks we know.
> Dofla parried that with his plume mantle lol.
> ...


Proof Dofla wasn't using haki?

And you have yet to tell me how Zoro would do any better there than Sanji did.


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## Almageste (Sep 14, 2021)

It's fairly obvious Sanji became much stronger, even if it's through power inflation and bad writing on Oda's part regarding his power due to pathetic portrayal  (people back in 2015 believed he was the new Yamcha).

However, the latest scans and his latest feats served as a wake up call to all M3 doubters and to all Sanji being relatively close to Zoro doubters (close, not equal). He should be able to defeat Doflamingo with mid diff in base (Queen needed to defend against some of Sanji's kicks with CoA after all) and low diff with raid suit/potential genetic awakening.

When you think about it, the one reason Sanji's power is so contested is because of portrayal: Due to the infamous Vergo incident and Doflamingo humiliating him, he became the laughingstock of many Zoro fanatics who until then silently hated him (for trying to act cool in TB against Kuma or performing somewhat better than Zoro against CP9). However, Sanji was just the unfortunate hype tool Oda found in some instances, as he couldn't let Vergo who until then was acting like Law's superior and had a terminator vibe to him lose too early in PH, whereas Zoro had the luxury of often being paired against opponents he would naturally have an advantage somewhat against.

Said differently: Sanji, a physical brawler, fought a physical brawler proficient in Haki/rokushiki who was supposed to be the main fighter antagonist of the arc => Oda had to either have Sanji defeat him/look superior (which would destroy Vergo's image, as he wouldnt appear again in the story to redeem himself) or make Sanji struggle somewhat to hype Vergo (best way to do that in an early shounen brawl without showcasing too many moves ? show internal damage, aka cracked bone). Same can be said against Doflamingo, where he (like Smoker) was again used as a hype tool to showcase Doffy's powers.

Zoro was never subjected to fighting a main arc villain post TS (aside from base Hody or Kaido, with the former serving more as PROOF of the strawhat's growth rather than a threatening villain, hence any of the m3 or Jinbei would've humiliated him), and the one peer of Vergo he fought was a non-physical brawler who relied on a giant stone golem that wasn't even imbued with haki (like Bullet in Stampede), so the PERFECT target practise for his Aoe attacks without fear of retaliation or resistance.. Even pre TS M3 were shown to casually deal with giant sized threats like sea kings (smaller than Pica I agree) and casually slice/kick buildings during the Oars battle (Sanji's jenga technique or Zoro's buddha cut).

I love both Zoro and Sanji, but I hate senseless bullying or quick judgement, which Sanji was sadly subjected to due to his hype tool past. Heck, even Luffy sandbags EVERY SINGLE MAJOR ARC and yet people don't move him across tier lists. Even Oda seemed to have realized how much damage he had done to Sanji's status as a fighter and decided to correct that in the latest scans, yet people keep on clinging to the past..


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## Mercurial (Sep 14, 2021)

Shunsuiju said:


> Proof Dofla wasn't using haki?
> 
> And you have yet to tell me how Zoro would do any better there than Sanji did.


Proof is the fact that Oda felt the need to show Dofla using Black Haki against Rufy. While he didn't show any trace of that against Sanji.

And that was with a few chapters difference, it's not like Marineford Arc and Post Time Skip arcs.
So he didn't show Haki because it wasn't used. As when it was used, he showed.

Lol. ZORO. Zoro defended himself against Fujitora, even pushing him back and gaining the Admiral's praise, with the bystanders marines worrying for Fujitora.
Fujitora wasn't serious? Yes. Sure.
But let's be honest and recognize that Zoro wasn't serious as well. No bandana on. No Haki. No Santoryu. No high end moves. No Ashura. Just a single sword nameless slash.

It's a completely different portrayal.
Fujitora is >> Doflamingo.
Sanji clashing with Doflamingo results in Sanji losing immediately and risking his life without giving any damage.
Zoro clashing with Fujitora results in Zoro defending himself, even pushing the opponent back, and gaining praise and hype.

It's not that hard. If Oda let a casual Zoro have a good showing against a casual Fujitora, he would have a 100% Zoro give extreme diff to 100% Doflamingo.
Or do you think that Zoro's Ashura went from doing shit to Doflamingo to wound Hybrid Kaido to the point it left a scar? When Denjiro + Sulong Inu + Ashura Doji + Kinemon all joined together couldn't create enough strength to even re-open the old scar, let alone create a new one?
Did Zoro improve 900% just because of Enma? Or was he YC2-YC3 level before already?

So, use common sense and stop this.

Rufy is a bit stronger than Zoro and Zoro is widely stronger than Sanji. This results in a massive gap between Rufy and Sanji. It's something that it's obvious to 99% of people.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Their CoA was also strong enough to overcome them.


Headcanon of course.


Conxc said:


> Even if Sanji knew, the result would be the same. He couldn’t do so much as burn a feather off Doffy’s coat. Doffy was toying with him and almost killed him -100 difficulty. He was *outclassed. *A lot of you need to go back and re-read that “fight”.


Doflamingo was much stronger than Sanji, and I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise but its also made clear that Sanji didn't understand what he was fighting.



Obviously if he had knowledge, he'd be able to better dodge; knowing that there are strings attached to Doflamingo's finger tips he'd be wary of Doflamingo's hand movements. Dodging allows him more chances to throw more hits like Hell Memories.

To be clear, Sanji had no hope of winning or doing debilitating damage but the fight ended so quickly only because Sanji's limbs were locked with strings than Sanji didn't even know where there.

A lot of you need to go back and reread Doflamingo vs Luffy. The only thing stopping Doflamingo from wrapping his strings around Luffys entire body and ending the fight in 10 seconds instead of just cuffing his wrists was pure plot.




Conxc said:


> Doffy couldn’t handle Luffy the way he handled Sanji so he had to show a little more


That's just....not true. Luffy tagged Doflamingo and did damage exactly once prior to Gamma Knife and that was the Red Hawk done with Law's help.

Any other time, Doflamingo rolled over Luffy; we all know it. Even after Gamma Knife the fight was lopsided with Luffy being unable to do any damage after their first exchange. He landed two punches after Doflamingo stood back up then proceeded to be slapped around until Gear 4.



Mercurial said:


> Doflamingo parried Sanji's Diable Jambe without needing to use CoA.


So you think that Sanji's kicks are weaker than actual literal feathers?

I mean, you'd have to in order to believe that Doflamingo held up his feather cape as a defense and didn't coat it in haki.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mylesime (Sep 14, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> When there's popular, recurring discourse like whether a Yonko First Mate is actually "YC1+" or something (despite, of course, inherently contributing 1/5th to what "Yonko First Mate level" even *is*), then I have little confidence enough people _do_ understand that these fandom terms are weightless in the ways they are often used.



If you're focusing on the dumbest takes involving Bounties or Ranks within a crew to dismiss these designations, you might as well throw every data given to us in the story.
  On this Page alone the way some feats are interpreted and taken out of context, it's certainly not worth more as a tool to evaluate characters (cf Chopper).
Every sensible reader is aware of the fact that those aren't absolute rankings, just like for  (to a lesser extent) the Yonkos, admirals, Vice admirals, Supernovas,etc.
You can't totally ignore those "titles" which  generally don't contradict the plotline.
Folks ignore all the time feats that are considered as outliers, such as Chopper fighting Queen for half an hour or Luffy surviving Marineford despite several encounters with  top tiers (Mihawks, the Admirals, Garp, Sengoku). Why should it be different with bounties and titles.
We can question feats too in this story......
Which proves that the only sensible approach is to take every information into account while aknowledging that there is no absolute certainty....




Datassassin said:


> Most characters in One Piece don't have the advantage of the perspective of the outside reader. We have more context for all the characters' bounties, how the government operates, and the accuracy of linkage of bounty to combat strength. There can be an association, sure, like experiencing rain on a cloudy day. However, the sight of clouds doesn't ensure any actual precipitation or even the amount of the downpour. As bounties indicate threat level, the go-to in the OPverse is to examine something easy to judge: power. Bounty is still, however, not a true stand-in for "power level". Chopper and his meager bounty of '100' just further reinforces that the bounty game is strictly one of governmental perception, since we as the more-knowing reader can see that Chopper (through his expertise and combat strength) easily deserves a bounty to rival Supernovae.



You're ignoring the most important goal of those datas, it's a way for the author to relay an information to the reader; it's aimed at us readers, as well as designed for in universe world building.
Chopper and Sanji's bounties were chosen to make us laugh and play with their different identities (was later developed with the whole vinsmoke plot). Similarly, Sanji could have had a bounty of 310 or 340 million berries without affecting the plotline whatsoever, Oda just chose it to play with the Zoro/Sanji rivalry.....
Like with the ranks, again most of us are aware of the fact that those aren't absolute and unquestionable elements, we have to put them into perspective.
Yet that fact also applies to the feats, and every single datas concerning the characters, they serve the plot ultimately.....
If Monet made Luffy struggle it was to allow the meeting between Luffy and Momo, if Black Maria caught Sanji it was to lead to the moment between Sanji and Nico Robin...... If fodders caught Kidd and brought him back to Udon it was to reveal Kamazou's identity and lead to the "alliance" between Kidd and Luffy....
What you're saying when it comes to questioning the bounties and rankings is even more visible with the "feats", which can very often be extremely clumsy......

*We take everything into account.*



Datassassin said:


> ?? I haven't suggested Queen doesn't deserve his particular bounty, with all of his unique traits on top of his leadership role in Kaido's crew. I also don't intend to argue for Cracker's threat level vs Queen's, I merely highlighted how the government only references a _tiny slice_ of his DF powers (limb-creation) through his epithet and uses his Biscuit Soldier image (implying they don't know his full skill or scope of his DF). Cracker's bounty would likely substantially shift if they _in fact don't know_ the scope of his DF/his abilities in combat.



It's interesting but you're speculating.
Headcanon.
You can't question the validity of the rankings and the bounties and then try to come to this conclsuion based on so little.....
It would never end, i could very well claim that the WG ignore the fact that Jack is mixed race hence why they assumed he died when he fell into the sea after confronting the Navy trying to free Doffy....
It was written in all the Newspaper that he died, which meant that they ignored that he could breath underwater.
So his threat level is actually underestimated....

Nice fanfic but Pure headcanon too. Most of the important characters in the story are shrouded in mystery, the Navy ignored Ace's lineage for years, Teach was under the radar, before becoming a shichibukai, and then a Yonko. To this day we still don't know why he doesn't sleep or how he could eat several devil fruit 
So we do know that Bounties have to be interpreted......just like feats.
They do mean something tough. We don't just say because of the madness Luffy pulled off at Marineford that feats don't mean anything likewise....

Using everything each one of us then come up with his own interpretation....
There is a reason Queen, Katakuri, King and Marco are in the low 1 billion berries..... A reason why Kaido, Shanks and Big Mom are all near 4 Billions....




Datassassin said:


> Well the Drake exchanges _were_ indeed a bad look, & while Page One continued the Unfortunate Depiction train (in regards to Ranger Suit striking force getting directly outclassed), the _end_ of the Page One clash didn't suggest Sanji _would lose_ lmao.


Another proof of how shaky it is to rely on feats, anime ,etc.

I've seen the same OP fans in some instance use anime's portrayal to validate Zoro's use of CoC, while contesting the same source material when it came to Sanji's use of hardening. 
Similarly Sanji clearly dominated X Drake in the anime.....
So which one is it? Anime is canon or baseless?

Regardless, The X Drake exchange weren't a bad look for Sanji, he escaped X DRAKE two times, with one of those encounter including Hawkins too. He was protecting O Toko, Nami, Robin, Shinobu, and safely escaped both times without any injury.
The second time they clashed, Drake used his full Zoan form while Sanji did not use his Raid Suit.....
Based on them feats, this was not a bad look, when the cook came out on top both times (regarding their respective goals) without injuries.....
The recent events seem to confort that idea since he also freed Momo without any consequences on his well being despite the calamities presence.
Sanji seems to be portrayed as significantly stronger than the average Supernova, and comparable to Commanders.
Contrary to what was claimed by many.....


I get that you disagree, and you're within your right, but this does highlight how relative all of this really is, and why bounties and rankings have at least  as much worth.
Proximity is the only important criteria, we're the one complicating it.
Oda doesn't give a darn, an admiral can beat another admiral based on the needs of the plot, whether the fanbase claim that admiral X is 0;54% superior or not to admiral Y...




Datassassin said:


> New showings of Sanji's, situated later in Wano relative to the earlier Drake/Page One content, would naturally take precedence for any evaluation of Sanji's strength in any case.


Depends on which showings you're talking about.

Sanji was able to free Momo despite King and Queen's presence, he was then unable to escape Black Maria's headquarters, unable to avoid the ice on the ground and fell head first, later on he had no trouble avoiding every single laser beam launched by Queen......

Plot>Feats, and too many readers act like it's not the case.
Oda will orchestrate the events to lead to the desired outcome, encounter, etc.
Last chapter for example, no matter what it took the two twin dragons would have met.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Headcanon of course.
> 
> Doflamingo was much stronger than Sanji, and I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise but its also made clear that Sanji didn't understand what he was fighting.
> 
> ...


Luffy is literally shown breaking out of Parasite in their fight. Physical strength + strong CoA, as was implied is needed to fight Doffy IIRC. It’s been a while.

Knowledge would simply prolong the inevitable being Sanji gets no-diffed. That’s all that matters here.

You say that, but at *any *point in that fight Luffy could have went G4 and the tide would have completely turned. The fact that he didn’t was plot of anything were to be attributed to that. Doffy’s strings couldn’t do shit to him in G4.

Law didn’t make Red Hawk any stronger did he? No, so we’re comparing AP and damage here. Doffy *allowed *Sanji to tag him several times and he couldn’t even burn a feather off his coat. Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy. Doffy knew he had to take Luffy and Law seriously, the exact opposite of Sanji. And literally, as the fight progressed they were forced to pull out all the stops being G4 and Awakening respectively, so I don’t see how my statement wasn’t true. Neither of them showed their entire hand at the start of the fight.


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## Mihawk (Sep 14, 2021)

I think Doflamingo could've fit in between YC2 or 3. His Dressrosa performance indicates the lower spectrum of 3. 

He's tough as nails and pretty durable for a guy who fights by outmanoeuvring his enemies. He also doesn't back down completely from Admirals, was able to bind Jozu for some time, and required the best attacks from Law and then Luffy in G4 to finally put him down. Yeah, the Commanders are more durable and physically stronger, but he's got enough haxx and AoE to hold his own against them in a fight I think. 

If it wasn't for the plot contrived bullshit in Dressrosa, a technique like Bird Cage or God Thread could've been really devastating. I can see Doflamingo still being a pretty strong player the next time we see him. He won't be as good as someone like Katakuri, but Oda won't have him be weaker than someone like Cracker if he's ever to be relevant again. 

Speculation aside, I honestly haven't been that impressed by Queen; who has shown nothing besides his durability and the fact that he fought alongside his colleague that would make me feel like he'd be much of a threat to someone like Marco, who was embarrassing him for multiple stretches. Conventional wisdom and powerscaling should logically mean Queen >> Doflamingo, and yet aside from physical resillience/durability, I don't see much in combat ability that separates him. Queen was getting choked and thrown around by Marco, while Big Mom basically 2-shotted him without Haki and Homies. Of course, Doflamingo would've gotten beaten down in both scenarios fairly quickly too, but that's kind of the point. 

OT: Sanji beats Doflamingo with the Raid Suit where he will vastly outclass him in speed; but I think it's a lot closer in base. His physical attributes and Haki should definitely be on a far higher level than they were in Dressrosa, meaning he'll be able to break out of Parasite easily and clash with Doflamingo in CQC without any much of a problem. I can even see Sanji now having the strength to kick away some of Doffy's higher end attacks while in Diable Jambe. His speed should be greater now...RS Sanji is potentially a YC1 level combination, while Base Sanji still beats Doflamingo high-difficulty.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Luffy is literally shown breaking out of Parasite in their fight. Physical strength + strong CoA, as was implied is needed to fight Doffy IIRC. It’s been a while.


Yeah, with Gear 4. Bounceman trashed Doflamingo though and no one is arguing that Sanji is on a level with Gear 4.

Before that, Doflamingo never wrapped Luffy's body. He just tied his wrists because, you know, plot.


Conxc said:


> Knowledge would simply prolong the inevitable being Sanji gets no-diffed. That’s all that matters here.


Well we're in agreement here..

The "prolong" part is what I'm arguing arguing. With knowledge, Law got bodied by Doflamingo, base Luffy got bodied by Doflamingo, and Sanji would get bodied by Doflamingo. The point is that people are knocking Sanji for losing quickly when this seems to be clearly due to his unfamiliarity with Doflamingo's power.



Conxc said:


> You say that, but at *any *point in that fight Luffy could have went G4 and the tide would have completely turned. The fact that he didn’t was plot of anything were to be attributed to that. Doffy’s strings couldn’t do shit to him in G4.


Well no, if Doflamingo immobilizes him as he did with Sanji then Luffy cannot blow air into his arms and transform. Doflamingo was just being a dumbo who was smiling at Luffy transforming because, you know, plot.


Regardless, Sanji isn't comparable to Gear 4. He's comparable to base Luffy only IMO.


Conxc said:


> Law didn’t make Red Hawk any stronger did he? No, so we’re comparing AP and damage here. Doffy *allowed *Sanji to tag him several times and he couldn’t even burn a feather off his coat. Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy.


Odd/stupid wording.
Putting up a shield is the opposite of allowing yourself to be hit, and why are you mentioning whether Doflamingo's coat was burned? Go show me some panels of Bounceman knocking feathers loose from the coat or quit being silly. It's obvious Doflamingo's coat is coated in haki when he uses it as a shield and clothing damage has never been a judge of attack strength.

Red Hawk was strong enough to damage Doflamingo. A Jet Bazooka for example, wasn't. Obviously Sanji has stronger attacks he can pull than those he showed such as his old finishers like Diable Mouton Shot and Hells Memories which was portrayed alongside Vagabond Drill.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Mercurial said:


> *Proof is the fact that Oda felt the need to show Dofla using Black Haki against Rufy. While he didn't show any trace of that against Sanji.*
> 
> And that was with a few chapters difference, it's not like Marineford Arc and Post Time Skip arcs.
> So he didn't show Haki because it wasn't used. As when it was used, he showed.
> ...


like this?

\

God this thread 

I'm one of those Zoro closer to Luffy than to Sanji people, but this Sanji hate is out of hand. You have to ignore pretty much everything about Sanji's presence in the story to think that he's "widely" weaker than Luffy let alone Zoro.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Yeah, with Gear 4. Bounceman trashed Doflamingo though and no one is arguing that Sanji is on a level with Gear 4.
> 
> Before that, Doflamingo never wrapped Luffy's body. He just tied his wrists because, you know, plot.
> 
> ...


Then what are we doing here if we agree?

Sanji still wouldn’t have lasted very long in a fight where he can’t deal any damage but also can’t defend both because his CoA pales in comparison to Doffy’s. Also, Luffy was not getting bodied. Doffy had to pull out CoA hardening to attack and defend from the start of the real fight against Luffy, who was holding his own in base/G2.

*Spoiler*: __ 















The first hit that Sanji got in, he caught Doffy by surprise and it still did 0 damage. Throughout that fight, Doffy, like Vergo, did not see the need in using CoA Hardening against Sanji. If you wanna argue that he used regular CoA that's fine as he most likely did, but obviously CoA Hardening is step further both offensively and defensively. I'm using the feather coat to emphasize how little Sanji was able to do damage-wise.

I posted a bunch of panels of Luffy injuring Doffy in base/G2. For example, Jet Gattling and one of the attacks that Sanji used on Doffy are the same type of attack. Doffy had to defend against Jet Gattling with Hardening and clearly still felt it vs not having to against Sanji and laughing about it.


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## NotTommy (Sep 14, 2021)

Not really sure about Base Sanji outright winning. He's been more impressive this arc than in earlier ones post-timeskip but I still think without Raid Suit it's a kinda a bad match-up.

Doffy's pretty versatile and with moves like Parasite, it's still gonna be hard for Sanji (though Sanji would now know Doffy utilzies strings). I think Sanji does much better now than before though considering he was only momentarily down the only time we saw him struggle at all at the Live Stage.

With Queen, who's also really impressive and who I view as comparable to Doffy (I kinda rank Queen higher), he's the type of opponent that Sanji does best against (strong and has good defenses but one that Sanji's significantly faster than). Against Doffy, Sanji doesn't have that same advantage and he might not get a chance to use something like Hell's Memories. 

I think Raid Suit Sanji has a good chance of winning though. Invisibility, increased durability and increased speed makes it much closer in my opinion (I see Raid Suit Sanji taking it personally). If Base Sanji continues to be impressive and shows even more against Queen then maybe I'd give it to him too (even if he loses, it'd be more of a fight this time around for sure).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

@Oberyn Nymeros Also, I realized that you have a habit of cutting out parts of scans that refute your statements. These scans show Luffy being able to transform into G4 without having to blow up his limbs.


*Spoiler*: __ 










I would've given you the benefit of a doubt and took it as maybe you're like me and simply forgot, but you posted one of these scans to try and make your argument...just the part that you wanted though.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Then what are we doing here if we agree?


Hey, you replied to me, remember?


Conxc said:


> Sanji still wouldn’t have lasted very long in a fight where he can’t deal any damage but also can’t defend both because his CoA pales in comparison to Doffy’s.


Conxc, I thought we agreed on that point already. Remember, you said that knowledge would prolong the inevitable? 

How about this, I think we can at least agree that Sanji has stronger hits than those he used against Doflamingo, right? 


Conxc said:


> Also, Luffy was not getting bodied. Doffy had to pull out CoA hardening to attack and defend from the start of the real fight against Luffy, who was holding his own in base/G2.


No, there's a big difference between how Luffy performed against Doflamingo before and after Gamma Knife which is why I mentioned it specifically. 

Before Gamma Knife, Luffy was put on his back in seconds without doing any damage or even being able to mount a successful defense both times he faced Doflamingo. Even post Gamma Knife, those two punches are the last damaging hits that Luffy manages without Gear 4. I already brought up all of this. 


Conxc said:


> I'm using the feather coat to emphasize how little Sanji was able to do damage-wise.


But....you know thats dumb. 


Conxc said:


> I posted a bunch of panels of Luffy injuring Doffy in base/G2. For example, Jet Gattling and one of the attacks that Sanji used on Doffy are the same type of attack. Doffy had to defend against Jet Gattling with Hardening and clearly still felt it vs not having to against Sanji and laughing about it.


What do you mean by he "clearly felt" the gatling from Luffy? We don't even get a reaction shot from him, but with Sanji we see Doflamingo complimenting the attack. To use your own stupid ass logic, Luffy didn't even manage to knock a single feather loose from his cape with that barrage. 



Conxc said:


> @Oberyn Nymeros Also, I realized that you have a habit of cutting out parts of scans that refute your statements. These scans show Luffy being able to transform into G4 without having to blow up his limbs.


No they don't. We know from the Katakuri fight that he has to blow into his muscles to begin the transformation. Its why Kats could strop the transformation by stopping Luffy's movements. Here, it happened off panel but that's no reason to assume the limitation applied before and after this specific moment.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Hey, you replied to me, remember?
> 
> Conxc, I thought we agreed on that point already. Remember, you said that knowledge would prolong the inevitable?
> 
> ...


Yeah, he's got some, but the Haki diff would mitigate the difference is what I'm saying. I'm not so sure Hell's Memories would have done much to Doffy here either. Named attacks from Luffy did less than some basic punches and kicks that seemingly did a little more to him in their fight. To me it's clear that the fight came down to CoA.

Doffy repaired his organs. Not gonna say he was back to 100% but he obviously mitigated the lethal aspect of the attack and didn't see all that phased by it. Not to mention Luffy wasn't 100% himself.

It might be a bit of banter, but the point is that he didn't hurt him at all.

For one, he had to defend with CoA Hardening which tells us that he already respected Luffy as an opponent more than Sanji. Also, if the coat thing was serious, he caused damage to Doffy's body. Notable, physical damage to Doffy in base. Sanji did nothing lol. Not the best counter there, bud.

That's obviously inconsistent because there's no way for Luffy to blow into his muscles in the scans I showed without breaking free of Pasrasite. He transformed without it, and present day does not have to do so to go G4. Just like he eventually didn't have to do the G2 stance or blow into his thumb for G3 anymore at some point. Either way, I provided proof that he doesn't have to do it. If you're saying otherwise then you gotta prove that.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

I mean, you've already said that "Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy" but now you're unsure if Hell Memories would do damage? Come on now.

*Spoiler*: __ 











Doflamingo wouldn't look so worried and bother with dodging and blocking and commenting on Sanji's power if Sanji's hits were actually incapable of damaging him.

----------

We're getting away from my point though which is that Sanji was defeated as quickly as he was because he lacked knowledge. With knowledge he lasts longer just as Law and base Luffy could though he would still lose in the end without pushing Doflamingo very far.

All this talk of Sanji not burning Doflamingo's cape and Doflamingo smiling is just pure silliness.

Current Sanji wrecks him though.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I mean, you've already said that "Red Hawk knocked the dog piss out of Doffy" but now you're unsure if Hell Memories would do damage? Come on now.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


Yes, because of the Haki diff. You can't ignore that. Wadatsumi is the only opponent we've seen Hell's Memories against. That's an opponent where Haki doesn't matter. Like I said, Doffy knew that he didn't have to guard or attack Sanji with CoA Hardening. He clealry felt like he didn't need to as Luffy warranted him using it. Doffy wasn't smiling when Luffy started wailing on him in base, and definitely not when G4 was on his ass, but he was smiling the entire time he fought Sanji and that matters.

I have no problem saying with knowledge, Sanji would last a*a little *longer, but you're trying to put his performance on the same level as base Luffy and Law's when both of them performed better, Luffy performing *far *better than Sanji did. *That's *what I can't agree with because that's just not true.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Yes, because of the Haki diff. You can't ignore that. Wadatsumi is the only opponent we've seen Hell's Memories against. That's an opponent where Haki doesn't matter.


So you think Red Hawk is more powerful than Hells Memories? Where do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Just curious.


Conxc said:


> He was smiling the entire time he fought Sanji and that matters.







Conxc said:


> *That's *what I can't agree with because that's just not true.


Okay.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> So you think Red Hawk is more powerful than Hells Memories? Where do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Just curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, at a certain level, Haki matters more than the actual attack itself. Firstly, I want to say that I completely disagree with the logic that if X attack is used next to Y attack, then X and Y attacks are the same. Jinbe is a proven CoA user. A Vagabond Drill vs Doffy will do more than HM because Jinbe's Haki is better. So yeah, a Red Hawk from DR Luffy against an opponent like Doffy is stronger than HM would be from DR Sanji.

That's cute. 

Look for the relevant scans.


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## Empathy (Sep 14, 2021)

If RS Sanji is really a budding YC2, then it stands to reason that base Sanji at this point would be a borderline YC3, probably on par with Jinbe, which is where most people had Sanji close to before the raid-suit improvements. It depends on the kind of boost Sanji really gets from his RS, as it seems to strengthen his base self just from wearing, even after he takes it off; it’s not for clear how long he’ll keep getting a passive stat boost each time he puts it on. Nevertheless, Doflamingo is an established YC3 to me, and he’d take it based on feats so far, so I’d have to say that Doffy wins with high or extreme difficulty for now.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Again, at a certain level, Haki matters more than the actual attack itself.


You made that up. 


Conxc said:


> Firstly, I want to say that I completely disagree with the logic that if X attack is used next to Y attack, then X and Y attacks are the same. Jinbe is a proven CoA user.


Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> You made that up.
> 
> Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.


Brother, the fights that we are talking about alone are proof of this, aside from the many others that are determined by Haki....

Sanji's named attacks did nothing to Doffy. That's canon. Basic punches, CoA Hardened, from Luffy did more than those named Sanji attacks. Also canon, in fact, I showed you that. I wonder why.

Depends on the opponent. At this stage in their current selves I'm taking a Red Hawk with ACoA + ACoC over a Vagabond Drill. Also, VG should still be compatible with CoA.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

@Oberyn Nymeros 

This also explicitly supports my claim as well. Pica thinks he's invincible when coated with CoA, Zoro says only if his CoA is stronger.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Brother, the fights that we are talking about alone are proof of this, aside from the many others that are determined by Haki....


No they're not


Conxc said:


> Depends on the opponent. At this stage in their current selves I'm taking a Red Hawk with ACoA + ACoC over a Vagabond Drill. Also, VG should still be compatible with CoA.


Nah, Fishman Island or WCI. Red Hawk vs Vagabond Drill.


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## Baroxio (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> You made that up.
> 
> Vagabond drill is a water element shockwave amped hit not a hardened haki strike. How do you think Vagabond Drill stacks with Red Hawk? Again, just curious.


Vagabond Drill pushed Big Mom back, which is far and away superior to anything that either Red Hawk or Hell Memories has ever done.

I rate Red Hawk as a Gear 2.5 attack. Below all Gear 3 level attacks, which themselves are all below Gear 4 level attacks. 

As for Wadatsumi, if you actually look at what happened with him, Jinbei's feats are superior to Sanjis. Wadatsumi attacks, and Jinbei overpowers his attack and knocks him on his ass. Sanji then kicks him while he's down, forcing him to sit up. In other words, Sanji's feat only has to counter the gravity of Wadatsumi's body. Jinbei had to overcome both Wadatsumi's gravity AND the force of his own blows. Ergo, Jinbei's feat is superior. 

Afterwards, Wadatsumi blows himself up to a tremendous size and threatens to roll over the entire plaza. Narratively, Wadatsumi doing this is meant to be a point of threat and contention. Ergo, this could be considered a power up for him, especially if you consider it similar to Luffy's Gears (which also rely on puffing oneself up with air). At any rate, Jinbei uses Vagabod Drill, punctures the Puffed Wadatsumi and forces him to release all of his stored air. Once he's returned to normal, Sanji then finishes Wadatsumi off with Hell Memories. Jinbei dealt with the main threat of puffed Wadatsumi, while Sanji played cleanup duty. Again, his feat here is superior. 

Furthermore, Jinbei's attack is penetrative, while Sanji's is seemingly a mix of blunt and burning damage. Most people rate penetrative and cutting attacks higher than blunt force trauma or burns - especially in a shounen manga. Long story short, there's a reason why Jinbei is officially joining in the same arc/day that Sanji (and to a lesser extent, Luffy & Zoro) gets a massive powerup.


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## Conxc (Sep 14, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> No they're not
> 
> Nah, Fishman Island or WCI. Red Hawk vs Vagabond Drill.


Welp, can't argue with that logic. 

The attack that knocked the snot out of Doffy.

Seriously though, the opponent matters. I feel like VG was used specifically because of Wadatsumi's size. You seem to think that's Jinbe's best move?


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 14, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> As for Wadatsumi, if you actually look at what happened with him, Jinbei's feats are superior to Sanjis. Wadatsumi attacks, and Jinbei overpowers his attack and knocks him on his ass. Sanji then kicks him while he's down, forcing him to sit up. In other words, Sanji's feat only has to counter the gravity of Wadatsumi's body. Jinbei had to overcome both Wadatsumi's gravity AND the force of his own blows. Ergo, Jinbei's feat is superior.


Comparing a 7 thousand tile hit to an unnamed non DJ hit.


Baroxio said:


> Afterwards, Wadatsumi blows himself up to a tremendous size and threatens to roll over the entire plaza. Narratively, Wadatsumi doing this is meant to be a point of threat and contention. Ergo, this could be considered a power up for him, especially if you consider it similar to Luffy's Gears (which also rely on puffing oneself up with air). At any rate, Jinbei uses Vagabod Drill, punctures the Puffed Wadatsumi and forces him to release all of his stored air. Once he's returned to normal, Sanji then finishes Wadatsumi off with Hell Memories. Jinbei dealt with the main threat of puffed Wadatsumi, while Sanji played cleanup duty. Again, his feat here is superior.


Wadatsumi hadn't returned to normal when Sanji kicked him. We know how Wadatsumi is shaped.


Baroxio said:


> Furthermore, Jinbei's attack is penetrative, while Sanji's is seemingly a mix of blunt and burning damage. Most people rate penetrative and cutting attacks higher than blunt force trauma or burns - especially in a shounen manga. Long story short, there's a reason why Jinbei is officially joining in the same arc/day that Sanji (and to a lesser extent, Luffy & Zoro) gets a massive powerup.


You did all this to let me know you think Jinbe was stronger than Sanji during earlier arcs? I don't disagree.



Conxc said:


> Welp, can't argue with that logic.


I know. You just didn't present any argument for why haki is more important than attack power.


Conxc said:


> The attack that knocked the snot out of Doffy.


So Red Hawk > Vagabond. Interesting; I appreciate the response.


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## Shunsuiju (Sep 14, 2021)

Empathy said:


> *If RS Sanji is really a budding YC2, then it stands to reason that base Sanji at this point would be a borderline YC3, probably on par with Jinbe, which is where most people had Sanji close to before the raid-suit improvements.* It depends on the kind of boost Sanji really gets from his RS, as it seems to strengthen his base self just from wearing, even after he takes it off; it’s not for clear how long he’ll keep getting a passive stat boost each time he puts it on. Nevertheless, Doflamingo is an established YC3 to me, and he’d take it based on feats so far, so I’d have to say that Doffy wins with high or extreme difficulty for now.


If your conclusion is that Sanji is merely Jimbei's equal in base, or without the raid suit, then your equation must be really off.

The answer is probably that Jack and Jinbe are substantially weaker than Sanji and Queen.


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## Sablés (Sep 14, 2021)

Mihawk said:


> I think Doflamingo could've fit in between YC2 or 3. His Dressrosa performance indicates the lower spectrum of 3.
> 
> He's tough as nails and pretty durable for a guy who fights by outmanoeuvring his enemies. He also doesn't back down completely from Admirals, was able to bind Jozu for some time, and required the best attacks from Law and then Luffy in G4 to finally put him down. Yeah, the Commanders are more durable and physically stronger, but he's got enough haxx and AoE to hold his own against them in a fight I think.
> 
> ...


My thoughts exactly.

Though personally, I've found the idea of YC2/3 to be a silly invention by people who want to needlessly group tiers. Yonko commanders have no rank in-between crews so the term is fundamentally misguided. I'm pretty sure Jozu or Vista would be comparable if not superior to Katakuri based on their feats in MF. Hell, Vista and Marco both had a scene where they damaged Akainu comparably well. That same Marco who hurt Queen by his own admission. For me, there are the first mates and then there are the Yonko commanders. Crews are not equals so there's no reason their top placements have to be either.

It also bothers me how matchups/abilities are often ignored and decide everything on reputation and thoughtless scaling.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Friendly 1


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## Datassassin (Sep 14, 2021)

Mylesime said:


> Every sensible reader is aware of the fact that those aren't absolute rankings, just like for (to a lesser extent) the Yonkos, admirals, Vice admirals, Supernovas,etc.
> You can't totally ignore those "titles" which generally don't contradict the plotline.


Admirals and Yonko have a discernible strength standard. None of those other things, including "being third or second best in x crew" have a specific strength standard, yet in discussions of character-strengths that's *exactly* how they've historically been used both across the OP sections and in this thread.


Mylesime said:


> Which proves that the only sensible approach is to take every information into account while aknowledging that there is no absolute certainty....


I've asserted that bounty represents a perceived "threat level" by the in-story world government and that _for in-story characters_, strength-assessment is an easy way to attempt rationalization of that "threat level". I have *not* said "bounties are without value in hyping a character", *nor* "bounties should be excluded from _any_ metrics of character evaluation". I *am* saying that if you center an argument on "X has a higher bounty than Y, so X is stronger than Y", then you're engaging in folly point-blank. This is hardly me projecting lofty analysis onto the story of One Piece because the author went out of their way, *repeatedly for years pre-and-post-skip*, to indicate how bounty =/= strength.


Mylesime said:


> *it's a way for the author to relay an information to the reader;* it's aimed at us readers, as well as designed for in universe world building.


A bounty in itself only tells the reader (or even an in-story character) how much the government is publicly concerned by that character. You don't get a narrow handle on strength, nor do you get history. Not actually *that* much information other than a fun Wumbo number, in itself.


Mylesime said:


> It's interesting but you're speculating.
> Headcanon.
> You can't question the validity of the rankings and the bounties and then try to come to this conclsuion based on so little.....


I made no attempt to obscure the fact that my example with Cracker was indeed speculation. *Very mild* speculation because the argument concerning the misleading epithet + inaccurate poster was simple, and compounds with Cracker's showings relative to Smoothie's. It's a relevant example of a feasible post-skip failing of bounties to indicate omniscient assessment of a character's strength level.


Mylesime said:


> It would never end, i could very well claim that the WG ignore the fact that Jack is mixed race hence why they assumed he died when he fell into the sea after confronting the Navy trying to free Doffy....
> It was written in all the Newspaper that he died, which meant that they ignored that he could breath underwater.
> So his threat level is actually underestimated....


It would never end, correct. Many characters can have fine arguments made for shifting of their Fun Government Numbers. It's almost as if the edge of the World Government's perception is prone to being flawed on numerous levels, including comprehension of characters' abilities or the_ weight_ of those abilities on their threat to the government.


Obviously, anyone can and surely _will_ continue using bounties *as* power-levels, but it's a silly action to me and makes for increasingly shitty arguments in "vs" discourse.



Mylesime said:


> Another proof of how shaky it is to rely on feats,* anime* ,etc.
> 
> I've seen *the same OP fans in some instance use anime's portrayal* to validate Zoro's use of CoC, while contesting the same source material when it came to Sanji's use of hardening.
> Similarly Sanji clearly dominated X Drake in the anime.....
> So which one is it? *Anime is canon or baseless?*


The canonical manga is the story directly as the author personally visualizes it. *I* haven't advocated for the use of sources like the anime to compare character strengths.


Mylesime said:


> The X Drake exchange *weren't a bad look for Sanji*, he escaped X DRAKE two times, with one of those encounter including Hawkins too. He was protecting O Toko, Nami, Robin, Shinobu, and *safely escaped both times without any injury*.





Mylesime said:


> The second time they clashed, Drake used his full Zoan form while Sanji did not use his Raid Suit.....
> Based on them feats, this was not a bad look


1) Sanji can turn fuckin* invisible and fly*, so he _should_ be able to at least run away efficiently given how much faster he is than Drake. He already had his Ranger Suit on when he meets up with Robin in 936 and we see Drake looking for him.
2) The main exchanges I was referring to were the direct combat clashes shown from 944, where Sanji's kick does so little to Drake that the marine could have been drawn in the *exact* same way in a scene where he wasn't being struck; it may as well have not happened, and Drake didn't bother visibly defending at all. Next, 945 sees Sanji attempt to use a Diable Jambe technique on Drake, and he's literally swatted away with Drake's tail. That specifically had a heavy degree of 'oof' when Sanji is known for his COO and speed.


Mylesime said:


> Sanji was able to free Momo despite King and Queen's presence,


This was more a reminder of the inconsistent application of COO than it was some shining combat moment for Sanji relative to King/Queen. Recall how King treated Sanji in that scene, and the warranted mockery Sanji had afterwards.


Mylesime said:


> Plot>Feats, and too many readers act like it's not the case.


This is 100% wrong for *discussions of strength in hypothetical matchups where the protective veil of plot is erased*, per the nature of Battledome sections. Characters _here_ use all their abilities as well as they can in-line with their personalities or mindsets, with the imagined fights unencumbered by convenient lucky power-ups or merciful strokes of probability.


Mylesime said:


> Depends on which showings you're talking about.


I'm talking about actually-good material for threads like this one, aka showings of Sanji's against current opponents that demonstrate increased strength in relevant ways. As of now? Sanji lacks reasonable counters for Parasite, such as ones in line with the performances of Parasite we've seen between Jozu, DR Sanji, & DR Luffy. Sanji lacks devastating techniques like Gamma Knife or King Kong Gun. Sanji lacks general physical force comparable to DR G4. Sanji also lacks speed on the level of DR G4. When that character gets more things articulated in the canon story, then I can rationalize a non-plot-protected Sanji prevailing over a DD unimpeded by that same plot. Until then, such a _restricted_ Sanji without the fruits of his upcoming advancement doesn't get a victory nod from me here, when I didn't see _unrestricted_ Sanji as prevailing in the first place.


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## Mihawk (Sep 14, 2021)

Sablés said:


> My thoughts exactly.
> 
> Though personally, I've found the idea of YC2/3 to be a silly invention by people who want to needlessly group tiers. Yonko commanders have no rank in-between crews so the term is fundamentally misguided. I'm pretty sure Jozu or Vista would be comparable if not superior to Katakuri based on their feats in MF. Hell, Vista and Marco both had a scene where they damaged Akainu comparably well. That same Marco who hurt Queen by his own admission. For me, there are the first mates and then there are the Yonko commanders. Crews are not equals so there's no reason their top placements have to be either.
> 
> It also bothers me how matchups/abilities are often ignored and decide everything on reputation and thoughtless scaling.


I agree man.

It’s actually reassuring and increases confidence for me to see that a poster like you (and I mean that in a good way) feels that way about these tiers and commanders. No mandatory requirement for all yonk crews to be equal or built the same. In fact they’re all fundamentally different. I’ve always felt Jozu was better than Katakuri, and doflamingo has such incredible influence so he’s very powerful.

But I think ppl probs gonna bring up Cracker and the difference in performance against G4 etc etc. Personally though I always got sick and tired of using Luffy as the basis of comparison for _everything_. It’s the same folly that led ppl to think the first mates get one-shotted by Kaido etc.


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## Mylesime (Sep 15, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Admirals and Yonko have a discernible strength standard. None of those other things, including "being third or second best in x crew" have a specific strength standard, yet in discussions of character-strengths that's *exactly* how they've historically been used both across the OP sections and in this thread.


I disagree, for the most part every OP reader would agree that Joz is stronger than Smoothie without even knowing his bounty, and despite similar roles in their respective crews.
The commander title just gives us a range, like with the Supernovas.
The stalemate between those empires also lets us know that it is highly unlikely that a commander could low diff his counter part in an opposite Yonko crew.
These guys are relevant  and can't be ignored by their counter parts, something portrayed at Marineford where very clearly Doffy was portrayed as a legitimate factor against Joz for example. We are currently seeing different match ups, that lasted for quite sometimes involving the Dukes, Jack, or Perospero.
People just tend to overblow the gaps between these characters.....
There are huge implications if one assume that one of this commander can low diff his counter part, like showcased on Onigashima, such disparity would be  a huge game changer in a conflict.
It would be silly to talk about strict equality, however it does indicate a relative proximity (basically low diff is out of the equation)




Datassassin said:


> I've asserted that bounty represents a perceived "threat level" by the in-story world government and that _for in-story characters_, strength-assessment is an easy way to attempt rationalization of that "threat level". I have *not* said "bounties are without value in hyping a character", *nor* "bounties should be excluded from _any_ metrics of character evaluation". I *am* saying that if you center an argument on "X has a higher bounty than Y, so X is stronger than Y", then you're engaging in folly point-blank. This is hardly me projecting lofty analysis onto the story of One Piece because the author went out of their way, *repeatedly for years pre-and-post-skip*, to indicate how bounty =/= strength.



Strawman once again.
Who does that? Certainly not the majority, when we are all aware of the fact that Ussop has a higher bounty than Franky currently.
No one claims that Sanji is stronger than Zoro because his bounty is higher. Heck Robin just beat Black Maria....
As long as we agree that bounties are just another element that comes into play when evaluating a character "threat level", which is Linked to a certain extent to their strength ( Caesar and Queen for example have a lot in common, the disparity with their bounties can mostly be explained by the fact that the calimity is far more difficult to subdue), it can give us a range (proximity once again).
That's how we can conclude that Queen is far stronger than Caesar simply by looking at their bounties (similar background, confidential intel, and activities, as well as networks)



Datassassin said:


> A bounty in itself only tells the reader (or even an in-story character) how much the government is publicly concerned by that character. You don't get a narrow handle on strength, nor do you get history. Not actually *that* much information other than a fun Wumbo number, in itself.


While i obviously agree that a bounty is just an element among others to evaluate a character, you're underestimating its worth. When characters are  in similar circumstances/ environments, it can indicate a relative proximity.
There is a reason Shanks, Kaido and Big Mom's bounties are near 4 billions (established rulers in the New World)
A reason most commanders are near a billion. Hence why Oda often relates it to strength.



*When Oda uses bounties like that sometimes, you simply can't qualify it as " a fun Wumbo number", while basing your understanding on isolated feats only , God forbid if Luffy is involved (the Guy tanked an attack from Full Zoan Sengoku pre time skip during the war....). Everything comes into play.....*



Datassassin said:


> I made no attempt to obscure the fact that my example with Cracker was indeed speculation. *Very mild* speculation because the argument concerning the misleading epithet + inaccurate poster was simple, and compounds with Cracker's showings relative to Smoothie's. It's a relevant example of a feasible post-skip failing of bounties to indicate omniscient assessment of a character's strength level.


As long as we agree that it's speculation.
What you consider as very mild is not necessarly the case for others.



Datassassin said:


> Obviously, anyone can and surely _will_ continue using bounties *as* power-levels, but it's a silly action to me and makes for increasingly shitty arguments in "vs" discourse.


Strawman.
Once again i am yet to see a sane reader, simply claim that character X is stronger than character Y solely because of a Bounty......
It is an element that has to be interpreted obviously.
Once again everything needs to be taken into account when evaluating these characters.
You're highlighting the limits of those bounties, titles and rankings, but fail to recognize that feats are anything but absolute.

Chopper's feats shits on Who's Who's, yet they have to be put into perspective, despite a clear advantage in terms of feats, it's purely thanks to hype and portrayal (his bounty, his rank, his interactions with other tobbi ropos, and Chopper's crewmates performances against said tobbi ropos) that we know that WsW is likely stronger.....
Those feats are nice and all, but we all know that plot is the only reason Chopper was not killed by Big Mom or Queen.



Datassassin said:


> 1) Sanji can turn fuckin* invisible and fly*, so he _should_ be able to at least run away efficiently given how much faster he is than Drake. He already had his Ranger Suit on when he meets up with Robin in 936 and we see Drake looking for him.


Fanfic.
You've got a wild imagination i'll give you that.
You're downplaying the feats and using headcanons that clearly contradict the story.
*As far as we know Sanji did not use the Raid Suit at Yasuie's execution.*

Then Like we've seen with Momo's rescue, the invisibility doesn't automatically apply to the persons he rescues, let alone when there are 3 of them that's how King was able to locate him (Shinobu , Nami and Robin), at no point was it indicated at the public bath that he used invisiblity on Nami, nor Robin, nor Shinobu. Coupled with Hawkins presence..... Speed, reflexes obviously played a role. And in the end he was able to safely escape with 3 persons to protect despite the presence of 2 Supernovas. 
In terms of portrayal and feats it is telling , and it impact those three characters interactions and standings.
Sanji was not negatively portrayed comparedbto X Drake, which was obvious at the time, and even more undeniable at this point .

Excuse me if i then question different takes on different feats by the readers ( a phenomenon that applies to me too).
Everything is questionable regarding those characters, titles, bounties..... and feats.
For example i can't agree with your evaluation of x drake vs sanji, just like you disagree with mine.
It wasn't a bad look, which is strengthened by the developments later during the Arc......





Datassassin said:


> 2) The main exchanges I was referring to were the direct combat clashes shown from 944, where Sanji's kick does so little to Drake that the marine could have been drawn in the *exact* same way in a scene where he wasn't being struck; it may as well have not happened, and Drake didn't bother visibly defending at all. Next, 945 sees Sanji attempt to use a Diable Jambe technique on Drake, and he's literally swatted away with Drake's tail. That specifically had a heavy degree of 'oof' when Sanji is known for his COO and speed.


You're focusing on the tree while ignoring the forest, overanalyzing the shit out of this interaction. It was a stalemate.
Same process used by many in the Page 1 VS Sanji clash, where the only moment the tobbi ropo had the upper hand was overwanked.
X Drake was unable to capture Sanji or even prevent him from doing whatever the fuck was his goal in both occasions. Despite using his devil fruit while the cook was in base the last time (you have absolutley no basis supporting the claim that the raid suit was used at Yasuie's execution...... ).
And frankly you're overblowing the shit out of Drake's attacks on Sanji, there was almost no damages inflicted in that skirmish.
Sanji didn't damage the ancient Zoan either, who also failed to inflict any injury to the strawhat, the Vinsmoke succeeded to accomplish his goal each time, i don't see how this can be spinned as an inferiority, specially knowing that while one of the fighter used his fruit, the other was .in base




Datassassin said:


> This is 100% wrong for *discussions of strength in hypothetical matchups where the protective veil of plot is erased*, per the nature of Battledome sections. Characters _here_ use all their abilities as well as they can in-line with their personalities or mindsets, with the imagined fights unencumbered by convenient lucky power-ups or merciful strokes of probability.


I'm sure you realized that we collectively don't reach the same conclusions once we erase the plot.
That's the whole point, we interpret those feats, and evaluate them differently, just like with the bounties.



Datassassin said:


> I'm talking about actually-good material for threads like this one, aka showings of Sanji's against current opponents that demonstrate increased strength in relevant ways. As of now? Sanji lacks reasonable counters for Parasite, such as ones in line with the performances of Parasite we've seen between Jozu, DR Sanji, & DR Luffy. Sanji lacks devastating techniques like Gamma Knife or King Kong Gun. Sanji lacks general physical force comparable to DR G4. Sanji also lacks speed on the level of DR G4. When that character gets more things articulated in the canon story, then I can rationalize a non-plot-protected Sanji prevailing over a DD unimpeded by that same plot. Until then, such a _restricted_ Sanji without the fruits of his upcoming advancement doesn't get a victory nod from me here, when I didn't see _unrestricted_ Sanji as prevailing in the first place.



What you consider as "actually-good material" is not an opinion necessarly shared by another participant, that's the whole point of those debates.

I personally think that Doflamingo is underestimated, i can understand someone arguing on behalf of the former shichibukai in this match up, it's close enough, specially with awakening.

However the double standard is funny since you're acting like plot did not explain how easily the strawhats was handled on Dressrosa, he had to throw himself between Doflamingo and his ship/the weakest nakamas, had no intel regarding Doffy's abilities and was used as an hype tool.
No one can claim that Doflamingo wasn't stronger than Sanji at the time, since the shichibukai displayed superiority over Law and Luffy himself, however neglecting that in this encounter the Straw hat had to try to protect bystanders against a stronger foe is intellectually dishonest.
To go back on XDrake performance against Sanji, it's quite useful to use Doflamingo feat. With "hostage" to protect in both cases, it's obvious for any unbiased reader to see what actual domination looks like.


Based on the actual feats displayed by Base Sanji currently, even before the awakening of his lineage factors, it's a fair match up/question.
The cook is stil fighting despite having to deal with both calamities for a brief moment, he was obviously overpowered, yet who can seriously deny the stats boost when comparing his performance against Doflamingo alone in Dressrosa, in similar circumstances.
He's way stronger, strong enough to make this a legitimate conversation.
Doflamingo neutralized him in mere seconds, King and Queen failed to do so......in base.

I've seen Queen aka the cyborg, the ancient Zoan use CoA hardening to protect himself against Sanji's diable jambe assault, who in his right mind would claim that Doffy could still handle this with his coat without hardening?



Personally i think it would .be close with Sanji in base.
However we can now safely say that Sanji is significantly stronger than Doflamingo at full strength,  a predictible fact denied until recently.....


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 15, 2021)

Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo. He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF. 

People saying the cook mid diffs are delusional. Luffy with superior firepower in G4 couldn't mid diff Mingo. 

Base Sanji gets body bagged.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 15, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo. He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF.
> 
> People saying the cook mid diffs are delusional. Luffy with superior firepower in G4 couldn't mid diff Mingo.
> 
> Base Sanji gets body bagged.


_
To be fair, the Marines really don't have much middle way between Admirals and Vice Admirals with the Garp caliber ones retired   

One of the stronger Marine Vice Admirals was Doffy's subordinate, and with Doffy's connection with Kaido and the potential support he could get, as well as the impact it could have on Dressrosa if they send a fighting force that can't quickly overwhelm and contain Doflamingo and his men, sending Admirals as the leading force instead of Vice Admirals makes the most sense._

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 15, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Aokiji said multiple admirals must be allocated to take out Doflamingo.


That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral



Seraphoenix said:


> He planned on taking out Fujitora, despite seeing what admirals are capable of at MF.


He also planned on being PK lol

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Mylesime (Sep 15, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
> Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral


This.
The developments afterward showed exactly why an admiral was mandatory.
Jack reacted and acted in order to free Doflamingo before he was jailed at Impel down. Fujitora and Sengoku sank his fleet.
Only an admiral in the NAVY can handle this type of mission with the guarantee of success.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Seraphoenix (Sep 15, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _To be fair, the Marines really don't have much middle way between Admirals and Vice Admirals with the Garp caliber ones retired
> 
> One of the stronger Marine Vice Admirals was Doffy's subordinate, and with Doffy's connection with Kaido and the potential support he could get, as well as the impact it could have on Dressrosa if they send a fighting force that can't quickly overwhelm and contain Doflamingo and his men, sending Admirals as the leading force instead of Vice Admirals makes the most sense._


While there is a big gap, if base Sanji is mid diffing Doflamingo as so many are saying here, then what does an admiral do? Does he low diff or neg diff Mingo? If that's the case, then Aokiji would not have said more than one admiral should be sent. If the strongest person on the opposition gets low or neg diffed, then you wouldn't need more than one of the person who can do the low or neg diffing. 

We are even shown that a former Fleet admiral and Tsuru were also sent to supplement Fujitora's forces. So the narrative that base Sanji is mid diffing someone the marines take so seriously is delusional. Unless someone wants to tell me base Sanji is admiral level. Suits me fine tbh  




Strobacaxi said:


> That's a gross misunderstanding. Admirals needed to be allocated to take care of everything around DD, not DD himself. DD was a king, with known connections to a Yonko. Aokiji wrecked DD easily lol
> Also, VAs are clearly not enough, so there's not much else to send except an admiral
> 
> 
> He also planned on being PK lol


You should not be talking about 'misunderstanding' anything. Aokiji was clear that multiple admirals should be sent for Mingo.

Where did Aokiji 'wreck' DD easily? I can't take you seriously when you say stupid shit like this.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## GilDLax (Sep 15, 2021)

Sanji has no ''self-power-up'' since Dresrosa, meaning his only power-up is external tool, aka Raid Suit, which he still hates to use which raises the question whether it will really become permanent part of his repertoire or he will just toss it to Usopp and Franky and occasionally use it for utility.

His own so-called base power, also his full power pre-RS, didn't have any chance to improve. He didn't fight shit through out Zou and WCI (Luffy hogged all the good fights to bring his power level to new height). Unless you count fodderizing Sheepshead, kicking Bobbin, dodging Katakuri's mochi, cheap-shotting Oven, all of these tiny skirmishes, enough to power him up. Even fighting Page One is nothing more than a Raid Suit introduction.

I know people are tempted to grant characters power-up just because ''shounen trope: characters improve arc by arc'' but that's lazy thinking. Tropes do exist, but they are not iron-clad rule that all mangaka have to obey and even if a mangaka does employ it in his manga, it doesn't mean you can apply it to all characters and all arcs. An author is free to keep a character's fighting strength the same if it serves his story. You have to look it the actual evidences in the manga to make conlcusion.

Zolo and Sanji literally have had zero chance to improve their fighting post-TS until Wano. They either cruise through without challenge (Zolo, except for vs Fuji) or is used to hype antagonist (Sanji vs Doffy). They didn't have any real just-right challenging fight to push themselves in the same vein as Ennies Lobby fights (vs Jabura and Kaku) until...NOW. Zolo at least had his Rooftop showing but Sanji didn't. So no, I don't see any reason to put non-RS Sanji any more than what he did vs Doffy. Hell, Queen is still not fully serious. So wait until Sanji actually beats Queen after a serious, extended fight to say whether he can beat DD.

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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 15, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> While there is a big gap, if base Sanji is mid diffing Doflamingo as so many are saying here, then what does an admiral do? Does he low diff or neg diff Mingo? If that's the case, then Aokiji would not have said more than one admiral should be sent. If the strongest person on the opposition gets low or neg diffed, then you wouldn't need more than one of the person who can do the low or neg diffing.
> 
> We are even shown that a former Fleet admiral and Tsuru were also sent to supplement Fujitora's forces. So the narrative that base Sanji is mid diffing someone the marines take so seriously is delusional. Unless someone wants to tell me base Sanji is admiral level. Suits me fine tbh



_
Well the situation is more complicated than taking on an opponent on a battlefield




As Aokiji was saying, Doflamingo is a unique case, even beyond the fact that he get's to rule over a country the way Boa does. Doflamingo's most dangerous because of the information he holds over the Celestial Dragons about their National Treasure, and so taking action against him means that there has to be 0% chance of that information getting out.

You can't afford Doflamingo to flee or have one of his men flee with that information. 

When the Celestial Dragons are involved, the Admirals can get mobilized by them even on trivial matters, so when there's such a threat to their overall security, it's no wonder that said threat will be handled in such a manner.


I'm not saying this to argue that base Sanji mid diffs Doffy though. I'm having a hard time gauging base Sanji at this point so i'm not confident in making strong claims about him, and with Doffy as well there's some room to argue about his standing._

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Strobacaxi (Sep 15, 2021)

Seraphoenix said:


> Where did Aokiji 'wreck' DD easily? I can't take you seriously when you say stupid shit like this.


When he froze him literally without lifting a finger and made DD huff and immediately retreat. Do you understand what letting Smoker live meant? It meant DD knew very well he had no choice

I don't know why we're even having this discussion, Kuzan would fodderize DR G4 5x harder than Katakuri did


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## Lord Melkor (Sep 15, 2021)

Sanji going all out should propably get benefit of the doubt at this stage but i do not think Queen is that much above Doflamingo so in no way it is an easy fight for Sanji. Doflamingo has amazing versality.

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## Ezekjuninor (Sep 15, 2021)

Where are people getting Sanji mid/low-diffing Doffy from? I hate the Doflamingo wank as much as anyone but current base Sanji definitely isn't as strong as Queen (who seems to be a stronger YC2 based on how close his bounty is to King's compared to Jack's). Sanji is going to defeat Queen with the raid suit and might even get another power-up. His base attacks haven't done much damage to Queen. So it's pretty clear that base Sanji isn't YC2.
I'd put base Sanji as a solid YC3 while Doflamingo would be a lower end YC3 judging from his performance against gear 4th. Sanji should win very high-extreme diff.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Mylesime (Sep 15, 2021)

This thread is  a masterpiece, a joy to watch, music to my ears.
How the tides have turned....
The most satisfying part?
Witnessing haters fighting to the best of their abilities against this wave. Sanji's wank is too  stronk indeed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## sanji's left eye (Sep 15, 2021)

Sanji with mid difficulty. Will probably turn to low difficulty when he gains the exoskeleton. He’s too strong now. He is knocking around Hybrid Queen. Queen’s bounty is higher than Katakuri’s, a guy who is waaaay stronger the DD. Hell Cracker is quite a bit stronger than DD as well. Doflamingo is a great villain but guys hype him up way too much. He’s what a YC4 guy?

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 15, 2021)

I think Doflamingo is physically (strength, speed, durability) a YC3 but his haki and attack power are lower. His attacks literally bouncing off of Gear 4 is a huge knock against him.

It's why I'm always shocked to hear people think Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker when Cracker could body base Luffy with a biscuit soldier and break through Bouncemans defense with no trouble.

I wouldn't say YC4....I think he's well above your Snacks and Who's Whos. He's like the barrier to the Yonku Commander rank for me. If you cannot beat Doflamingo, you're not worthy of a Top 3 Commander slot.

Reactions: Like 4 | Agree 1


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## Conxc (Sep 15, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I think Doflamingo is physically (strength, speed, durability) a YC3 but his haki and attack power are lower. His attacks literally bouncing off of Gear 4 is a huge knock against him.
> 
> It's why I'm always shocked to hear people think Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker when Cracker could body base Luffy with a biscuit soldier and break through Bouncemans defense with no trouble.
> 
> I wouldn't say YC4....I think he's well above your Snacks and Who's Whos. He's like the barrier to the Yonku Commander rank for me. If you cannot beat Doflamingo, you're not worthy of a Top 3 Commander slot.


So you acknowledge that at a certain level, Haki difference matters more than the actual attack?


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 15, 2021)

Conxc said:


> So you acknowledge that at a certain level, Haki difference matters more than the actual attack?


Nope. Why would I think that?


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## Conxc (Sep 15, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Nope. Why would I think that?


Surely you understand that the difference between Doffy not being able to pierce Luffy in G4 but Cracker being able to was…Haki, right?


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## sanji's left eye (Sep 15, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I think Doflamingo is physically (strength, speed, durability) a YC3 but his haki and attack power are lower. His attacks literally bouncing off of Gear 4 is a huge knock against him.
> 
> It's why I'm always shocked to hear people think Doflamingo is stronger than Cracker when Cracker could body base Luffy with a biscuit soldier and break through Bouncemans defense with no trouble.
> 
> I wouldn't say YC4....I think he's well above your Snacks and Who's Whos. He's like the barrier to the Yonku Commander rank for me. If you cannot beat Doflamingo, you're not worthy of a Top 3 Commander slot.


Hold up but if he’s not YC3…. Then he’s YC4 no?


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## Conxc (Sep 15, 2021)

I’m curious to know who started those made up tiers. Must be a genius because they have a lot of you mfs in chokeholds.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Surely you understand that the difference between Doffy not being able to pierce Luffy in G4 but Cracker being able to was…Haki, right?


Well, in part. It was haki and physical cutting power.


sanji's left eye said:


> Hold up but if he’s not YC3…. Then he’s YC4 no?


Not in my opinion. Would you consider Who's Who or Snack a YC4? If so, I don't think the term fits Doflamingo. I think those two would be bodied by Jack and Cracker but Doflamingo would give them a great fight.

Maybe if we exclude Who's Who and Snack and use YC4 for Dog, Cat and Doflamingo. That makes sense to me.


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

It's pretty clear that Jack>Doffy right? I think that used to be a debate but people have come to thier sense by now I'd hope.

And everyone knows Queen>>Jack

Queen is portrayed as a High lvl YC2, nearly on par with King.

Base Sanji is currently putting up a good fight against Queen. Yes, Sanji would likely lose if he stays in Base.

Base Sanji is not doing a lot of damage to Queen, but enough to make him bleed. Doffy was not known for his durability, remember G2 Red Hawk had him puking blood.

The notion that Sanji's AP has to, for some reason be compareable or above DR G4 Luffy is laughable. Did you guys watch Luffy vs Doffy? G4 wrecked him, it was no contest. Luffy's only problem was his timelimit.

If you believe that Sanji's AP is higher than DR Luffy's Red Hawk, then that's enough AP for Sanji to put down Doffy. Since I'd argue that Sanji's casual attacks are all atleast on that lvl. 

Sanji wins, Mid Diff. I'm not the biggest fan of YC tiers, but to put it simply

Base Sanji High YC3, RS Sanji High YC2 or Low YC1

Doffy Low YC3/High YC4

Reactions: Like 4


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Doffy was not known for his durability, remember G2 Red Hawk had him *puking* blood.


1) While I enjoy flavorful hyperbole as much as the next person, you should re-examine chapters 759-760 if you're being literal. The blood drawn spat from DD's mouth is consistent with the general blood-coughs Oda often has drawn to convey weighty _but not damning_ harm throughout the story. It's an established visual cue like the scuff-mark hatching. This is no more or less a case of "puking blood" than _Luffy_ was when DD's nameless Hardened foot knocked through Luffy's Hardened forearm-guard to bust him in the face, in 761.

2) As you'd immediately notice in even a cursory glance of the relevant pages, DD didn't defend against the surprise Red Hawk in any sort of visible way. *No Hardening, no bodily bracing, no limb defense, no string defense, etc.* We know how cleanly DD blocked G3 with string, blocked various Diable Jambe strikes using his body (with likely invisible base COA applied for the coat), and blocked G4 Culverin using Off White. The whole point of Law using a deceptive strategy to surprise DD with Luffy's attack was so that he'd be less likely to dodge or _defend_ in time.


ClannadFan said:


> The notion that Sanji's AP has to, for some reason be compareable or above DR G4 Luffy is laughable. Did you guys watch Luffy vs Doffy? G4 wrecked him, it was no contest. Luffy's only problem was his timelimit.


We saw DR G4 Luffy's vast physical superiority to DD, yet _that version of_ DD was one who already had accrued a wealth of severe injuries through Law's effort. The DD we see contest G4 through Awakening moves, the same DD we see dodge G4 strikes while closing distance, the one we see able to comprehend and attempt physical defense against Kong Gun/Rhino Schneider, previously took
-a free ab-burning Red Hawk
-abdominal impalement
-organ frying
-abdominal electrocution & a stamp immediately after that organ frying.

For a *fresh* DD, he would be more difficult for DR G4 Luffy to outclass _to the _*extent* that post-Law DD was outclassed. For current Sanji, who has already showcased improved physical force from his prior paltry state even earlier in Wano, he needs to actually demonstrate how his force is somehow overwhelming and not just offerings of a real fight. Unrestricted Sanji being a legitimate threat to DD is a tremendous accomplishment when we see how easily and swiftly DR Sanji was dispatched by DD. His physical force realistically wasn't any remotely toothed issue for DD, so to go from "serious Diable Jambe barrage getting blocked by unburnt feathers" to Sanji being able to deal truly-concerning damage is a great leap forward of power. Whereas DR Sanji got _easily_ outmaneuvered in a hot second, current-depiction Sanji should be fully capable of heavily pressuring DD in tangible ways for as long as he remains untangled.

There's not sufficient grounds to conclude Sanji's Ranger Suit is
*a)* boosting his speed substantially, _or_ dramatically as DR G4 did for Luffy. The disparity in speed between G4 and G2 was glaring, and hammered home with feats like Luffy traveling from the DR palace to the far-away town in seconds (without a dozen chapters of running like what it took to initially get over there) besides out-speeding DD in a way G2 clearly could not.
*b)* boosting Sanji's striking power to a great extent, or dramatically as DR G4 did for Luffy. The strikes Sanji has done with the Ranger Suit on have yet to appear inaccessible for his normal self, with gems like a RS kick getting flatly overpowered by a swipe of Page One's claw.

The benefits of Sanji's Ranger Suit may lay more in activation of his genes as related to his fire-ability, along with the passive heavy defense, passive flight, and invisibility. The readers at large would have no ambiguity if this present from Sanji's family truly offered a G4-type power-up in itself.

For posters overall who now manage to believe that Sanji can consistently defeat DD _without using everything available to him in a strenuous fight_, or even with any measure of "ease" as seen elsewhere in this thread centering "Base Sanji", I'd love to know what exactly was the point at which Sanji shot up from being a 30sec murder to just stomping the feathery man's face in. It clearly wasn't any point in DR or Zou, nor WCI where Sanji's interactions with Big Mom's kids were mixed at best (when it was abundantly clear how much weaker those kids were compared to Cracker or Katakuri), leaving us with the arc of Wano now. Is it estimated that Sanji meditated his away into being a peer of DD around the time Page One was giving the Ranger Suit trouble? Or around the time Sanji's kicks, awareness, and speed were being brushed off by Drake? Sanji is in a proving stage _now_ for something like strength parity with DD, facing characters named within a shared theme.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Also,


ClannadFan said:


> I'm not the biggest fan of YC tiers





ClannadFan said:


> *a High lvl YC2*





ClannadFan said:


> Base Sanji *High YC3*, RS Sanji High YC2 or *Low YC1*
> 
> Doffy Low YC3/High *YC4*

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> 1) While I enjoy flavorful hyperbole as much as the next person, you should re-examine chapters 759-760 if you're being literal. The blood drawn spat from DD's mouth is consistent with the general blood-coughs Oda often has drawn to convey weighty _but not damning_ harm throughout the story. It's an established visual cue like the scuff-mark hatching. This is no more or less a case of "puking blood" than _Luffy_ was when DD's nameless Hardened foot knocked through Luffy's Hardened forearm-guard to bust him in the face, in 761.


Yeah it was hyperbole. I assume people know what happened during Luffy vs Doffy. But point is G4 is not needed to harm Doffy.


Datassassin said:


> 2) As you'd immediately notice in even a cursory glance of the relevant pages, DD didn't defend against the surprise Red Hawk in any sort of visible way. *No Hardening, no bodily bracing, no limb defense, no string defense, etc.* We know how cleanly DD blocked G3 with string, blocked various Diable Jambe strikes using his body (with likely invisible base COA applied for the coat), and blocked G4 Culverin using Off White. The whole point of Law using a deceptive strategy to surprise DD with Luffy's attack was so that he'd be less likely to dodge or _defend_ in time.


I'm using Red Hawk as an example because I believe it should be clear that Sanji's current AP is much higher than DR Luffy's Red Hawk.


Datassassin said:


> We saw DR G4 Luffy's vast physical superiority to DD, yet _that version of_ DD was one who already had accrued a wealth of severe injuries through Law's effort. The DD we see contest G4 through Awakening moves, the same DD we see dodge G4 strikes while closing distance, the one we see able to comprehend and attempt physical defense against Kong Gun/Rhino Schneider, previously took
> -a free ab-burning Red Hawk
> -abdominal impalement
> -organ frying
> ...


I honestly don't think a fresh DD could of made up much of the difference in power. Either way he would of manhandled him. If G4 didn't have a timelimit then Luffy would have had zero problems beating Doffy. Fresh or not.


Datassassin said:


> For current Sanji, who has already showcased improved physical force from his prior paltry state even earlier in Wano, he needs to actually demonstrate how his force is somehow overwhelming and not just offerings of a real fight. Unrestricted Sanji being a legitimate threat to DD is a tremendous accomplishment when we see how easily and swiftly DR Sanji was dispatched by DD.


Are you saying you think RS Sanji would have trouble with Doffy?


Datassassin said:


> His physical force realistically wasn't any remotely toothed issue for DD, so to go from "serious Diable Jambe barrage getting blocked by unburnt feathers" to Sanji being able to deal truly-concerning damage is a great leap forward of power. Whereas DR Sanji got _easily_ outmaneuvered in a hot second, current-depiction Sanji should be fully capable of heavily pressuring DD in tangible ways for as long as he remains untangled.
> 
> There's not sufficient grounds to conclude Sanji's Ranger Suit is
> *a)* boosting his speed substantially, _or_ dramatically as DR G4 did for Luffy. The disparity in speed between G4 and G2 was glaring, and hammered home with feats like Luffy traveling from the DR palace to the far-away town in seconds (without a dozen chapters of running like what it took to initially get over there) besides out-speeding DD in a way G2 clearly could not.
> ...


Characters get huge power ups for no reason. Welcome to shounen manga. This is esspecially prevalent in One Piece. Remember Croc getting a huge power up somehow by just rotting in Impel Down?


Datassassin said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Also,


My point in bringing up the YC tiers was to make it easy to understand for anyone. Kind of a TL;DR. While YC tiers are flawed, it gives someone a general idea of how strong you think a character is.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> *If G4 didn't have a timelimit* then Luffy would have had zero problems beating Doffy. Fresh or not


Alas it does, since it's a huge stress on Luffy's body while burning through his Haki quickly, so I don't see a diminished DD withstanding it as a throwaway feat because a theoretical infinite G4 would be absurd for most characters below the Admiral-Yonko playing field. An infinite G4 would have completely changed the non-Yonko fights it was used in, for Cracker/Katakuri. Post-Law DD getting back up and jumping into Hardened Awakening usage was a great representation of DD's endurance while reinforcing to the reader how Luffy's goose would have been cooked in many ways if Luffy was unlucky/alone.


ClannadFan said:


> Are you saying you think RS Sanji would have trouble with Doffy?


I think Sanji with full suit-access and no in-story plot influence would lose to DD off of what we have so far, so the premise of the thread itself (a restricted Sanji vs DD) was funny already for me. I can see how people could generously fill in the gaps of _unrestricted_ Sanji's capabilities while overlooking his lack of responses to DD's traits (like Parasite or heavy endurance) to say Sanji wins in some tremendous battle, but the gaps being expressed here over these pages seem more reliant on the idea that Sanji *will* appear stronger than DD and that in the OP story he would fare well under the parameters of the plot's grace. Sanji also will be Admiral-level eventually, but I wouldn't argue he can step to someone like Aokiji without dying until he gets depictions supporting a plotless victory.


ClannadFan said:


> Characters get huge power ups for no reason. Welcome to shounen manga. This is esspecially prevalent in One Piece. Remember Croc getting a huge power up somehow by just rotting in Impel Down?


Respectable writers regardless of medium and still within shonen are able to present believable or at least rationalized growth. Oda himself has done it for many characters including Luffy & Zoro, whose increased COA skill and swordsmanship have become easy to justify given his training. As for Croc, he uniquely was just written as too weak in the first place for the nature of his past & role, combined with the lack of clarity Oda had at the time on Haki's functionality + weight. A New World veteran with fame great enough to have earned a Warlord spot ending up weaker than a Haki-less Arabasta Luffy? Dozens upon dozens of which could be slaughtered by 1 Pacifista, that Hancock and random New World veterans were one-shotting? Croc had to be retconned somehow.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Alas it does, since it's a huge stress on Luffy's body while burning through his Haki quickly, so I don't see a diminished DD withstanding it as a throwaway feat because a theoretical infinite G4 would be absurd for most characters below the Admiral-Yonko playing field. An infinite G4 would have completely changed the non-Yonko fights it was used in, for Cracker/Katakuri. Post-Law DD getting back up and jumping into Hardened Awakening usage was a great representation of DD's endurance while reinforcing to the reader how Luffy's goose would have been cooked in many ways if Luffy was unlucky/alone.


The reason I keep bringing up an infinte G4 is because current Sanji's AP is 100% above G3 DR Luffy. Some might argue compareable or above G4 DR Luffy, but I won't go there for the sake of this arguement. Point is if G4 was man handling Doffy, then if Sanji is somewhere inbetween G3 and G4 then it's more than fair to assume Sanji wins with somewhere from Mid to High diff depending on if you have his AP closer to G3 or G4.


Datassassin said:


> I think Sanji with full suit-access and no in-story plot influence would lose to DD off of what we have so far, so the premise of the thread itself (a restricted Sanji vs DD) was funny already for me. I can see how people could generously fill in the gaps of _unrestricted_ Sanji's capabilities while overlooking his lack of responses to DD's traits (like Parasite or heavy endurance) to say Sanji wins in some tremendous battle, but the gaps being expressed here over these pages seem more reliant on the idea that Sanji *will* appear stronger than DD and that in the OP story he would fare well under the parameters of the plot's grace. Sanji also will be Admiral-level eventually, but I wouldn't argue he can step to someone like Aokiji without dying until he gets depictions supporting a plotless victory.


Well you're very much in the minority there. Our view on RS Sanji vs Doffy isn't close, and I don't think we'd get anywhere with that lol. So agree to disagree on that one.


Datassassin said:


> Respectable writers regardless of medium and still within shonen are able to present believable or at least rationalized growth. Oda himself has done it for many characters including Luffy & Zoro, whose increased COA skill and swordsmanship have become easy to justify given his training. As for Croc, he uniquely was just written as too weak in the first place for the nature of his past & role, combined with the lack of clarity Oda had at the time on Haki's functionality + weight. A New World veteran with fame great enough to have earned a Warlord spot ending up weaker than a Haki-less Arabasta Luffy? Dozens upon dozens of which could be slaughtered by 1 Pacifista, that Hancock and random New World veterans were one-shotting? Croc had to be retconned somehow.


Point is, Oda will randomly power up characters whenever he wants to. Oda is a respectable writer, but this specifically is a flaw that he has shown that he has. Which is why power scaling is all over the place sometimes.


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> The reason I keep bringing up an infinte G4 is because current Sanji's AP is 100% above G3 DR Luffy. Some might argue compareable or above G4 DR Luffy, but I won't go there for the sake of this arguement. Point is if G4 was man handling Doffy, then if Sanji is somewhere inbetween G3 and G4 then it's more than fair to assume Sanji wins with somewhere from Mid to High diff depending on if you have his AP closer to G3 or G4.


By DR, G3 already had a nice list of showings; it was used to destroy an absurdly giant and durable deep-sea ship in Noah, it was confirmed to be far beyond Monster Point's tolerance for damage, & it could reshape a [diminished] legendary skull that Garp trained to face in its prime. I definitely diverge from you wholly on the evaluation of Sanji's current force eclipsing DR G3 casually. For G4, I thus unsurprisingly don't see any parity between strikes like Kong Gun, Leo Bazooka, or King Kong Gun and the moves Sanji has used so far either. IMO Oda has continually suggested that Sanji has had an issue with the force of his attacks (relative to his station), as we saw in PH (against Vergo & possibly that door), in DR (against DD himself), and in the current arc (against Drake and against Page One's claw swipe). Even against the varying firepower offered in G4, post-Law DD was able to successfully block a Culverin, whereas his string-less attempts at blocking Rhino Schneider/Kong Gun failed. Even if Sanji was accessing power comparable to _average_ G4 moves, those moves weren't enough to put down post-Law DD so _definitely_ not a fresh one able to both better block and better dodge.


ClannadFan said:


> *Well you're very much in the minority there*. Our view on RS Sanji vs Doffy isn't close, and I don't think we'd get anywhere with that lol. So agree to disagree on that one.


Woooord, increasingly so. Aimless contrarianism is dumb & I hope I never radiate that when going into explication of divergent stances in threads like this, but the mere _popularity_ of views on here don't do much for me lmao.


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> By DR, G3 already had a nice list of showings; it was used to destroy an absurdly giant and durable deep-sea ship in Noah, it was confirmed to be far beyond Monster Point's tolerance for damage, & it could reshape a [diminished] legendary skull that Garp trained to face in its prime. I definitely diverge from you wholly on the evaluation of Sanji's current force eclipsing DR G3 casually. For G4, I thus unsurprisingly don't see any parity between strikes like Kong Gun, Leo Bazooka, or King Kong Gun and the moves Sanji has used so far either. IMO Oda has continually suggested that Sanji has had an issue with the force of his attacks (relative to his station), as we saw in PH (against Vergo & possibly that door), in DR (against DD himself), and in the current arc (against Drake and against Page One's claw swipe). Even against the varying firepower offered in G4, post-Law DD was able to successfully block a Culverin, whereas his string-less attempts at blocking Rhino Schneider/Kong Gun failed. Even if Sanji was accessing power comparable to _average_ G4 moves, those moves weren't enough to put down post-Law DD so _definitely_ not a fresh one able to both better block and better dodge.
> 
> Woooord, increasingly so. Aimless contrarianism is dumb & I hope I never radiate that when going into explication of divergent stances in threads like this, but the mere _popularity_ of views on here don't do much for me lmao.


For me the thought process goes like this:

Queen is an Ancient Zoan, known for thier incredible durability and endurance. Queen is also just overall stronger than Doffy.

Doffy is not known for his durability, as he was already getting hurt Pre G4. That doesn't mean he has bad durability, but it's not near Queens Ancient Zoan lvl durability, shouldn't honestly even be close when you consider Queen is just overall better than Doffy AND ON TOP OF THAT durability is his specialty.

Base Sanji was able to make Queen bleed with basic kicks. Sanji has not even gone close to all out yet. If he can make Queen bleed, who has durability lvls upon lvls higher than Doffy, then you would have to assume that those same kicks would do many times more damage to Doffy than they did to Queen.

So Sanji's AP, which is his weakest trait, is more than enough to beat Doffy. I could see people saying Sanji Wins High Diff, but even extreme diff is too much, let alone actually thinking Doffy wins.


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## Mylesime (Sep 16, 2021)

I honestly feel like Queen is massively underrated.
His presence alongside King was the only  reason why Marco was in such a state, yet i see a number of readers acting like King could have done this shit to the Phoenix on his own without suffering much damages in the process.




*Outside of his durability (an ancient Zoan and a cyborg), his AP is extremely dangerous, Chopper has been instrumental against Queen, without the Doc, be it at Udon or at Onigashima his viruses would have decimated a huge number of soldiers, causing huge casualties.
Remove Chopper from the equation (on top of PIS causing the scientist to gift himself his antidote) and things would be very different....
Heck Marco too affected the spread of the plague.*

Queen seems significantly stronger than Doflamingo to me. Between his fruit, his cybernetic enhancement and his viruses.....
I don't see why his plagues would not affect Donquixote. A character like Apoo seemed very concerned, Luffy was affected at Udon.....

Concerning Sanji's AP, it was also portrayed as comparable to Luffy's elephant gun, efficient enough to counter a Yonkou named attack on Totland:



Queen has yet to be damaged be it against Big Mom ( who wasn't at full strength, but neither was the commander since he did not even use hardening during that clash) or Marco.
Yet Queen has been using hardening to defend himself against Sanji lately.
It's pretty clear that Doflamingo can't protect himself anymore by simply using invisible CoA on his coat against Sanji..... (i can't take seriously the claim according to which Doffy wasn't using armement against Sanji, not even  worth contesting)
The match up is close, however if we take the Raid Suit  into consideration, with invisibility and a significant boost in Durability...... Stealth Black's victory seems guaranteed, it would not even be close.


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

ClannadFan said:


> Doffy is not known for his durability, as he was already getting hurt Pre G4. That doesn't mean he has bad durability, but it's not near Queens Ancient Zoan lvl durability,


If durability is understood as the resistance of a character to being injured in the first place, essentially a measure of their passive bodily defense, then I don't see Queen as some standout in that regard relative to _other characters depicted in the top cut_ of the OPverse. Queen _does_ get injured when not able to defend with Hardening as you'd expect any other similarly hyped character to; he gets repeatedly drawn bleeding and in pain, but critically keeps going. He's not Jozu, aka some sort of amazing shield, or Cracker, aka able to avoid CQC damage entirely through wall tactics. Queen's vitality, his endurance, seems to define his physical nature more than some imagined special _Ancient Zoan-derived_ quality of defense. I don't think that Queen's reactions to Marco's and Sanji's attacks (clearly showing him being *harmed*) painted the picture that Queen could get away from _unblocked_ Elephant Gun Gatlings or prior-arc Kong Guns without being hurt; those attacks wouldn't put him _down, _but they'd still successfully deal damage.

Looking at the other top Beast Pirates, since Queen is being assumed to have an innate trait of a specific level derived from a DF type that is _shared_ by those crewmates, we can see that the other Ancient Zoans _also_ aren't difficult to wound in the first place. Jack has been sliced and stabbed a great deal by the Minks and Ashura Doji, Wano G3 had Page One leaking & in need of aspirin, and Jinbe didn't experience special difficulty in hurting Who's Who when his attacks connected or when WW's own force was turned on him. A vague "great physical strength" and high endurance + hastened recovery seem to be more significant *innate* traits of Ancient Zoans than some sort of amazing durability. To frame this another way: Queen seems like he may have a significantly high HP, with an accelerated capacity to recover HP given time, rather than it being uniquely hard to detract from his HP in the first place without him using a COA defense. DD's varying & complete offense seems substantially greater than Queen's as it stands, so I see Queen being eventually overcome or drowned depending on setting. People have done various threads on the matchup and I have had DD killing Queen more times than Queen manages to kill DD.

The pre-G4 points of harm coming to DD, as you referenced, began with the unguarded Red Hawk; I'm apparently differing from you in that I think Queen would need to use COA to completely defend against the strike, and if he *doesn't defend in any way as DD didn't*, then Queen would also visibly experience damage of _some amount_ depending on where he was struck. Queen, unlike DD, wouldn't be significantly impaired by whatever damage taken due to his vitality and capacity to recover over time. The *other* points of harm to DD were from Law's fruit, which was depicted as a unique threat to even Kaido's body due to its surface-bypassing nature. Since Injection Shot is derived from spatial manipulation, it would pierce through Queen's body without a COA defense in the same exact way it pierced through DD's (who didn't use _any_ visual or implied defense) to create the same wound. Then there's of course Gamma Knife into Countershock, which could certainly kill Queen as he'd have no means of resisting the shredding of his organs (if struck in the right place). DD "getting hurt pre-G4" a couple of times more _after Gamma Knife_ (seemingly superficially, in no ways that risked taking him out as judged by Luffy) cannot be isolated from the effects of the organ destruction.


ClannadFan said:


> Queen is also just overall stronger than Doffy.


If you mean physical strength, I agree that Queen *should* have the edge there due to how his character is set-up. However, in *actual* depiction, that does not appear to be stressed. Queen blocked a nameless base punch from prison-Luffy without any COA indication on Luffy's end, which is not an act that suggests robust superiority to DD in strength. Fresh DD, with a missed roundhouse, blasted off the tops of 3 large towers with the residual wind. Queens physical feats otherwise are usages of his fangs (like against Chopper) and not actually showings of him wrecking standout fighters with _blunt force_. He's fought *much* more with lasers and bullets, now followed by blades. Oda has gone in the _opposite direction_ that was expected for Queen, aka not a dinosaur crushing people with tremendous blunt force, but a fighter relying on viruses, lasers, bullets, and cuts to prevail. As of now, it's an unsupported assumption that Queen wields physical force able to shit on DD's.

It needs to be highlighted that for these fantasy characters, weight of these levels is worth nothing unless articulated otherwise in the story. The value of a character's physical strength, or of their durability, mainly becomes apparent through comparison to *known* values of other strengths exerted. Out of convenience, part of a post I'd done concerning this before is relevant on any possible "dino mass =  smash" ideas:


Datassassin said:


> Sanji's DJ kick this chapter spinning Queen's transformed neck, *without* Queen defending against that strike, is the sort of physical feat he should be getting as a superhuman of his level. This sort of weight isn't actually terribly special for him. One can look back at Arabasta, *early pre-skip*, where Sanji easily kicks a giant Banana Gator and lifts it with his strike's force in 175.
> 
> Even characters understood to be weaker than Sanji by the end of pre-skip, such as Impel Down Bon Clay, have visually fun feats of moving behemoths with simple kicks like the Sphinx in 531.
> 
> Post-skip Sanji, so _many times more powerful_ than he was in Arabasta or ID Bon Clay, certainly should be able to move similarly giant organisms with kicks even before this point in Wano. Force feats against characters *resisting*, via their own strikes or defenses, are usually much more valuable than "character struck a big thing and it moved" feats for matchups. DD's weight as a supernaturally-tall-human is nothing compared to either of the above two animals', but he blocked DR Sanji's barrage of Diable Jambe kicks with base COA (without Hardening) in the open air via one feathered arm. That version of Sanji could have probably kicked the Sphinx or the Banana Gator high up into the air, just judging off of how much stronger DR Sanji was compared to any pre-skip iteration.


Wano Sanji being able to move a mass like Queen with his kicks isn't special without Queen defending, and Sanji's force on its own can't circularly hype Queen's in a way usable here.


ClannadFan said:


> Base Sanji was able to make Queen bleed with basic kicks. Sanji has not even gone close to all out yet. If he can make Queen bleed, who has durability lvls upon lvls higher than Doffy, then you would have to assume that those same kicks would do many times more damage to Doffy than they did to Queen.


Sanji is completely serious and has been using significant, *named Diable Jambe techniques to hurt the often-non-defending Queen*. This is it. You're doing the thing where you're imagining Sanji's _future_ moves that you think he'll unlock later in the fight, but I'm operating off of what Sanji has *now*. Diable Jambe *is* the peak of Sanji's offense, it offers his most serious series of techniques, and the Ranger Suit has still not been depicted to change Sanji's kicking force from what he would already be capable of. Even Hell Memories has not been depicted thus far as a sustainable mode, and is just another serious move within the flaming DJ series.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> If durability is understood as the resistance of a character to being injured in the first place, essentially a measure of their passive bodily defense, then I don't see Queen as some standout in that regard relative to _other characters depicted in the top cut_ of the OPverse. Queen _does_ get injured when not able to defend with Hardening as you'd expect any other similarly hyped character to; he gets repeatedly drawn bleeding and in pain, but critically keeps going. He's not Jozu, aka some sort of amazing shield, or Cracker, aka able to avoid CQC damage entirely through wall tactics. Queen's vitality, his endurance, seems to define his physical nature more than some imagined special _Ancient Zoan-derived_ quality of defense. I don't think that Queen's reactions to Marco's and Sanji's attacks (clearly showing him being *harmed*) painted the picture that Queen could get away from _unblocked_ Elephant Gun Gatlings or prior-arc Kong Guns without being hurt; those attacks wouldn't put him _down, _but they'd still successfully deal damage.
> 
> Looking at the other top Beast Pirates, since Queen is being assumed to have an innate trait of a specific level derived from a DF type that is _shared_ by those crewmates, we can see that the other Ancient Zoans _also_ aren't difficult to wound in the first place. Jack has been sliced and stabbed a great deal by the Minks and Ashura Doji, Wano G3 had Page One leaking & in need of aspirin, and Jinbe didn't experience special difficulty in hurting Who's Who when his attacks connected or when WW's own force was turned on him. A vague "great physical strength" and high endurance + hastened recovery seem to be more significant *innate* traits of Ancient Zoans than some sort of amazing durability. To frame this another way: Queen seems like he may have a significantly high HP, with an accelerated capacity to recover HP given time, rather than it being uniquely hard to detract from his HP in the first place without him using a COA defense. DD's varying & complete offense seems substantially greater than Queen's as it stands, so I see Queen being eventually overcome or drowned depending on setting. People have done various threads on the matchup and I have had DD killing Queen more times than Queen manages to kill DD.
> 
> ...


Our depiction of characters overall strength seem to be very different. I already gave my answer on how I came to my conclusion. I'm not the biggest fan of writing huge essays back and forth lol. So we can agree to disagree.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Baroxio (Sep 16, 2021)

"Base Sanji was able to make Queen bleed"

So was Monster Chopper. Do people think Monster Chopper would defeat Donflamingo?


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## ClannadFan (Sep 16, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> "Base Sanji was able to make Queen bleed"
> 
> So was Monster Chopper. Do people think Monster Chopper would defeat Donflamingo?


Good thing there's more to a fight than just AP. Although Monster Point Chopper hurting Queen is a legitimatly nice feat for Chopper.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> "Base Sanji was able to make Queen bleed"
> 
> So was Monster Chopper. Do people think Monster Chopper would defeat Donflamingo?



_Base Sanji was able to make Hybrid Queen bleed with a regular kick though.

Also for Chopper we have follow up statements from Queen saying that he was just playing with him, and Chopper saying that for 30 minutes he wasn't able to hurt Queen at all._

Reactions: Like 3


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## Baroxio (Sep 16, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> _Base Sanji was able to make Hybrid Queen bleed with a regular kick though.
> 
> Also for Chopper we have follow up statements from Queen saying that he was just playing with him, and Chopper saying that for 30 minutes he wasn't able to hurt Queen at all._


We also have follow up statements from Queen saying that Sanji's kicks so far haven't been damaging him. Unlike when Marco attacked him and he admitted that it hurt.


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Base Sanji was able to make Hybrid Queen bleed with *a regular kick* though.


Which kick are you referring to? From my recollection they were DJ moves.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> We also have follow up statements from Queen saying that Sanji's kicks so far haven't been damaging him. Unlike when Marco attacked him and he admitted that it hurt.



_Screams of pain are not an admission of hurt ?_



_Are you perhaps talking about Queen's moment when he hypes the All Stars ?



And he claims that he and King "did not even feel that" ?

Because then you're saying that Zoro's attack also did not damage King at all.


What makes most sense is that Zoro and Sanji, like Marco before them didn't do significant lasting damage with their attacks, not that they were unable to hurt King and Queen with them. _

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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> Which kick are you referring to? From my recollection they were DJ moves.

Reactions: Winner 4


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## Datassassin (Sep 16, 2021)

_Oh_, so this kick really didn't have any leg fire at all and Queen is indeed bleeding. Queen gets drawn reacting in the same way to the named DJ kick afterwards at the end of that same chapter; the difference between the two cases only really becomes apparent in the _following_ chapter where King and Queen share a reaction highlight on the ground for a second while King stares. Unless I missed more than that panel, *5 out of 6* moves used by Sanji on Queen still involved DJ.

1015:
-1 DJ attack (the entrance rotisserie thing) landed on full-transformation Queen while attempting to bite Chopper, seemingly no blood, and some of Queen's unHardened metal fangs break.

1017:
-1 surprise undefended (named) DJ hit to the back of fully-transformed Queen's head, misfiring the laser that Queen was forming in his mouth. No blood.

1022:
-The undefended normal kick on Hybrid mode in the panel posted, for blood drawn.
-1 undefended DJ hit to Hybrid mode with some drops of blood drawn.

1023:
-1 DJ attack used to neutralize Bridal Grabber. No injury.
-2nd wheel-like DJ move used to strike Hybrid Queen, who blocked the strikes with a Hardened arm. No injury.

Queen only now is starting to defend with limbs/Hardening, with *4 out the 6* moves involving no visible defense from Queen's side. Still mainly using DJ, before and after the singular flameless instance.


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## Ren. (Sep 16, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Can current Base Sanji beat Doflamingo?


yes

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

@Datassassin  i_ndeed Queen has now become wary enough of Sanjis attacks to use CoA hardening to defend himself, so that he no longer gets hurt.

Also to note is that Sanji was able to fend off Queens named attack with an unamed DJ kick right before Queen started to use CoA hardening to stop Sanjis following unnamed DJ attack.

Also two chapters later when Luffy enters the Live Stage riding Momonosuke we see that Sanji continued to fight Hybrid Queen in base without getting overwhelmed._


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 16, 2021)

I wonder how much damage per hit Sanji needs to do for people to stop thinking his kicks are lacking.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> I wonder how much damage per hit Sanji needs to do for people to stop thinking his kicks are lacking.



_King and Queen both recovered in a similar manner from Zoros and Sanjis attacks, so while accounting for their different nature and how Zoro will always draw more blood/ be more lethal when he cuts someone, Sanjis attack was definitely a powerful one in its own right._

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Sep 16, 2021)

Sanji stomps, Doffy was getting blitzed by g4 Luffy, current Sanji should be just as quick as that

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Purposely avoided this thread coz tbh, I pretty much predicted what it would be about and wasn't really disappointed.

Anyway, it seems most of what I would have said has been said already. Sanji mid - high diffs.

On another note, I couldn't help but notice the little debate over attack power Vs Haki. Now would be as good a time as any to point out that Pretimeskip Luffy overpowered COA haki defense from one of the Boa sisters. Not saying having the stronger haki doesn't matter but anyone saying attack power is irrelevant is being dishonest.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Baroxio (Sep 16, 2021)

Sir Curlyhat said:


> Because then you're saying that Zoro's attack also did not damage King at all.


Do you think that I'm some sort of Zoro stan? No, I'm more than willing to say that Zoro's attack didn't damage King at all.  That's what the manga said, so that's what I believe.


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## Sir Curlyhat (Sep 16, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> Do you think that I'm some sort of Zoro stan? No, I'm more than willing to say that Zoro's attack didn't damage King at all.  That's what the manga said, so that's what I believe.



_Its not about being a Zoro or Sanji fan, its that like i said in my previous post when i quoted @Oberyn Nymeros , in Zoros case its that much easier to spot damage being done with the more significant amount of blood that results from a cut.

I'm absolutely not trying to drag Zoro down, but instead saying that both Zoro and Sanji were able to hurt King and Queen in that instance, in spite of Queens words diminishing the significance of the damage done in the context of their monstrous endurance._

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Claudio Swiss (Sep 16, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Sanji destroys him


Folks need to understand DD ain't shit these days
When he comes back we can talk until then Sanji cooks him

Reactions: Like 2


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Purposely avoided this thread coz tbh, I pretty much predicted what it would be about and wasn't really disappointed.
> 
> Anyway, it seems most of what I would have said has been said already. Sanji mid - high diffs.
> 
> On another note, I couldn't help but notice the little debate over attack power Vs Haki. Now would be as good a time as any to point out that Pretimeskip Luffy overpowered COA haki defense from one of the Boa sisters. Not saying having the stronger haki doesn't matter but anyone saying attack power is irrelevant is being dishonest.


Even by pre-ts standards, we saw him do that to the Boa Sisters, but he couldn't even touch Sentomaru prior to that. Sentomaru was portrayed to be more proficient than anybody on Kuja Island, who seemed to just have standard CoA proficiency. I think we can all agree that now, at this stage, Haki matters more than AP, or rather Haki is now directly relevant to AP. There are so many examples of Haki difference being the deciding factor.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Even by pre-ts standards, we saw him do that to the Boa Sisters, but he couldn't even touch Sentomaru prior to that. Sentomaru was portrayed to be more proficient than anybody on Kuja Island, who seemed to just have standard CoA proficiency. I think we can all agree that now, at this stage, Haki matters more than AP, or rather Haki is now directly relevant to AP. There are so many examples of Haki difference being the deciding factor.


Three things:

Luffy Vs Sentomaru was already pretty exhausted after taking on the Pacifista. His performance was bad, but he was basically running on little more than fumes at that point.

Regardless of Sentomaru's superior mastery over COA, the point is that an attack overwhelmed COA. Going by your logic, that should not have happened.

Attack power and COA are both important. We literally saw Doffy panicking when Fujitora summoned a meteor. Jack got knocked out by Zunisha in one blow. Heck it was strongly implied that Monet blowing up the lab in punk hazard would have lead to the death of the SH pirates. Just coz Haki has had a bit more spotlight doesn't mean Attack power isn't equally important.


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## OG sama (Sep 16, 2021)

Doflamingo is so underrated now that people think he can’t even hurt Queen now???

Sanji isn’t doing that much damage and Queen is a big ass target waiting to be hit.

Queen probably beats Doflamingo, but what Sanji is doing right now doesn’t necessarily mean he would beat Doflamingo.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Three things:
> 
> Luffy Vs Sentomaru was already pretty exhausted after taking on the Pacifista. His performance was bad, but he was basically running on little more than fumes at that point.
> 
> ...


Not saying you said it, but I thought that characters were their strongest when they're exhausted with nothing left in the tank? That was the argument that many used to downplay Ashura and Zoro as a whole. Banter aside, I'll give you that he was tired.

Yet on FI, Luffy explicitly states after sustainign a bite from Hody that his Haki was not yet strong enough to withstand an attack like that. Heavily implying that if his Haki were strong enough, he would sustain little to no injury, or at least less. On one hand, we have a non-Haki attack piercing Haki defense, but in the same breath, character testimony that Haki indeed would didctate how much damage he took there. Also this:


Where it is also explicitly stated that Haki diff decides this outcome.

The two things go hand in hand now, but Haki is more of a factor now. Remember when Luffy was wailing on Kaido with an assortment of G3/G4 techs and they all connected, pre-Udon? Those attacks did nothing. Now in the story, even before ACoC, Luffy's ACoA attacks were hurting Kaido. G2/base attacks. The difference? Luffy is closing the gap in his and Kaido's Haki difference. This is an *explicit *example of Haki being the difference. You can't tell me that a casual base punch under normal circumstances is stronger than his G4 techs. Even defensively, Luffy pre-Udon was one-shot by TB. Current Luffy can't be one-shot by that anymore thanks to improved Haki. I think it's pretty clear that at this stage, Haki is the most important thing next to type advantages/disadvantages.

EDIT: I also want to note that in the Hody example, Luffy had basic mastery over CoA. I believe that when you're at the entry lewvel stage then you're right. It matters less, but a you climb the ranks and start facing guys like Doffy and up, Haki matters the most. Again, Doffy could not pierce G4 Luffy yet Cracker could, easily. That's a Haki difference.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Also further to my point, and really the earlier points made comparing Hell's memories and Vagabond drill, Haki is literally what enhances an attack. That's been it's key feature (along with nullifying DF abilities) since it's intro way particularly in Amazon lily when Luffy noticed that their wooden arrows were destroying rocks.

To say that Hell's memories showing superior power that Vagabond drill is a case of haki not mattering is just another lvl of dishonest. Haki doesn't stop mattering or fulfilling its function as an enhanced of attacking or even defensive ability just coz the target has no haki.


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Also further to my point, and really the earlier points made comparing Hell's memories and Vagabond drill, Haki is literally what enhances an attack. That's been it's key feature (along with nullifying DF abilities) since it's intro way particularly in Amazon lily when Luffy noticed that their wooden arrows were destroying rocks.
> 
> To say that Hell's memories showing superior power that Vagabond drill is a case of haki not mattering is just another lvl of dishonest. Haki doesn't stop mattering or fulfilling its function as an enhanced of attacking or even defensive ability just coz the target has no haki.


You're talking about Haki at it's introductory stage. So much has changed since that point. Again, there are explicit examples. Luffy is using the same techs that he has been since DR but is so much stronger and has defeated stronger opponents because his Haki is getting better and better.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Not saying you said it, but I thought that characters were their strongest when they're exhausted with nothing left in the tank? That was the argument that many used to downplay Ashura and Zoro as a whole. Banter aside, I'll give you that he was tired.
> 
> Yet on FI, Luffy explicitly states after sustainign a bite from Hody that his Haki was not yet strong enough to withstand an attack like that. Heavily implying that if his Haki were strong enough, he would sustain little to no injury, or at least less. On one hand, we have a non-Haki attack piercing Haki defense, but in the same breath, character testimony that Haki indeed would didctate how much damage he took there. Also this:
> 
> ...



No one said Haki doesn't factor. However, attack power is also a factor and superior attack power will mess you up, haki or no haki. Heck the example you placed with Luffy Vs Hody directly conflicts with the argument you are trying to make.

The Zoro Vs Pica point is equally as irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Why? Coz Pics would just have easily been taken down by a lethal DF even without the presence of haki.

Luffy not being able to hurt Kaido and needing his Haki getting stronger to close the gap just tells us that his attack power alone isn't sufficient. However, give Luffy quake punches for example, and Kaido would have been in real trouble in that instance.


Also, already posted a further clarification on the core issue. Saying that X & Y attack on a single target shouldn't be compared coz said target doesn't have haki is dishonest as Haki doesn't stop serving it's function when the target has no haki.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> You're talking about Haki at it's introductory stage. So much has changed since that point. Again, there are explicit examples. Luffy is using the same techs that he has been since DR but is so much stronger and has defeated stronger opponents because his Haki is getting better and better.


Nothing really has changed. Yes, we've learnt more about Haki, but the fundamentals remain the same. Heck, your own points on this are in clear contravention with your arguments.

If current Luffy and DR Luffy both punched Hody, it's not even an argument which punch would do greater damage. Hody doesn't have haki, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be fairly obvious who among the two had the stronger haki if they both punch him. It's the same with Sanji/Jinbei Vs Wadatsumi. If their haki weren't at the very least comparable, then it would have been made clear by their attacks on him. It's pure head canon to suggest that Sanji's attack had weaker haki when we literally have zero indication that that was the case.


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> No one said Haki doesn't factor. However, attack power is also a factor and superior attack power will mess you up, haki or no haki. Heck the example you placed with Luffy Vs Hody directly conflicts with the argument you are trying to make.
> 
> The Zoro Vs Pica point is equally as irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. Why? Coz Pics would just have easily been taken down by a lethal DF even without the presence of haki.
> 
> ...


I used that example literally because the reason that the attack did anythign to Luffy was because his Haki was not yet strong enough to withstand it. Meaning that if it were, the attack would not have done much. It's the perfect example for my argument.

I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Zoro explicitly states that Haki is what that confrontation would come down to in the panel. Pica was already very confident that he'd come out on top because he thought me was invincible when coated in his own Haki. Why are you ignoring the very straight-forward words of the manga here?

No, it's literally that his Haki wasn't strong enough, which is what makes attacks stronger. He simply could not bypass Kaido's durability with his level of Haki. When he was training with Hyou, he was literally trying to use ACoA to be able to break Kaido's scales. That's 100% a Haki thing. I have a question: do you think if you gave Nami the GGnM and basic Haki that she would be able to harm Kaido? You also didn't respond to Luffy not being able to tank a TB pre-Udon to now being able to. Haki is more than just AP, it's also defense.

Hold that thought. Explain to me what you think happened here:


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Nothing really has changed. Yes, we've learnt more about Haki, but the fundamentals remain the same. Heck, your own points on this are in clear contravention with your arguments.
> 
> If current Luffy and DR Luffy both punched Hody, it's not even an argument which punch would do greater damage. Hody doesn't have haki, but that doesn't change the fact that it would be fairly obvious who among the two had the stronger haki if they both punch him. It's the same with Sanji/Jinbei Vs Wadatsumi. If their haki weren't at the very least comparable, then it would have been made clear by their attacks on him. It's pure head canon to suggest that Sanji's attack had weaker haki when we literally have zero indication that that was the case.


That just...isn't true. You're again, ignoring the exchange between two Haki users in combat when one is clearly inferior to the other. It seems like youre saying you can do anything to anyone even with just basic Haki if you hit hard enouhg, ignoring the relationship between Haki and AP scaling...

The examples that you're giving aren't really even examples of Haki use. Could they have used it? Maybe. But it wasn't explicitly made aware that that was even a factor on FI. Their opponents weren't Haki users themselves. We know that Luffy did try and defend with Haki, but FI was a stomp in favor of the guys with Haki. The Hody example works for my argument from a defensive standpoint. I also don't recall saying that Sanji's attack on Wadatsumi had weaker Haki.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I used that example literally because the reason that the attack did anythign to Luffy was because his Haki was not yet strong enough to withstand it. Meaning that if it were, the attack would not have done much. It's the perfect example for my argument.


Again, you are arguing against your own point. That fact that Hody CAN actually bit through Haki = GG tbh. Yes, it is a fact that Luffy can improve his Haki but one could argue that Hody could improve his bite force as well. Again, as long as we can clearly see AP wrecking Haki, your point fall flat. And we have a fuck ton of examples of those.


Conxc said:


> I don't see how you came to that conclusion. Zoro explicitly states that Haki is what that confrontation would come down to in the panel. Pica was already very confident that he'd come out on top because he thought me was invincible when coated in his own Haki. Why are you ignoring the very straight-forward words of the manga here?


I'm not ignoring that when two Haki clash, the stronger would prevail. All I'm pointing out is that sufficient AP alone would just have easily wrecked Pica's haki defense. Case in point, Hody Vs Luffy.


Conxc said:


> No, it's literally that his Haki wasn't strong enough, which is what makes attacks stronger. He simply could not bypass Kaido's durability with his level of Haki. When he was training with Hyou, he was literally trying to use ACoA to be able to break Kaido's scales. That's 100% a Haki thing. I have a question: do you think if you gave Nami the GGnM and basic Haki that she would be able to harm Kaido? You also didn't respond to Luffy not being able to tank a TB pre-Udon to now being able to. Haki is more than just AP, it's also defense.



For Luffy,it would be a haki thing. For a GG fruit user, it would be a matter of mastering the ability to generate more powerful quakes. And yes, if Nami had the same lvl of mastery over the fruit as Teach, Kaido isn't taking a free hit from a DF that literally shakes oceans without serious damage. 



Conxc said:


> Hold that thought. Explain to me what you think happened here:


Unclear. My guess is he morphed his body similar to Katakuri once he sensed that they could use Haki. 


Conxc said:


> That just...isn't true. You're again, ignoring the exchange between two Haki users in combat when one is clearly inferior to the other. It seems like youre saying you can do anything to anyone even with just basic Haki if you hit hard enouhg, ignoring the relationship between Haki and AP scaling...



I'm not ignoring that Haki matters a lot, but you are ignoring the fact that the effects of Haki are obvious, regardless of whether it's used in a combat between two Haki users or a non user. And yes, regardless of the strength of your haki, AP is easily just as important. Heck there's a reason Luffy in finishing off CC, Doflamingo and Katakuri literally went with the biggest punch he could unleash in those instances as opposed to just pouring haki into a basic pistol.



Conxc said:


> The examples that you're giving aren't really even examples of Haki use. Could they have used it? Maybe. But it wasn't explicitly made aware that that was even a factor on FI. Their opponents weren't Haki users themselves. We know that Luffy did try and defend with Haki, but FI was a stomp in favor of the guys with Haki. The Hody example works for my argument from a defensive standpoint.



They are though. As I have been pointing out, Haji's key function is just about the most consistent thing about the power system. Unless Jinbei's attack is shown to have left a bigger impact on Wadatsumi, there is absolutely no reason by which to base the logic of him somehow having the stronger haki.



Conxc said:


> I also don't recall saying that Sanji's attack on Wadatsumi had weaker Haki.





Conxc said:


> A Vagabond Drill vs Doffy will do more than HM because Jinbe's Haki is better.


That's literally what you are saying. Again,there is absolutely no reason to believe that Sanji's Haki when using HM is any weaker than Jinbei's when using VD. If Doffy isn't taking a Vagabond Drill without real damage, then that would inevitably be equally the case against HM.


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## Conxc (Sep 16, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Again, you are arguing against your own point. That fact that Hody CAN actually bit through Haki = GG tbh. Yes, it is a fact that Luffy can improve his Haki but one could argue that Hody could improve his bite force as well. Again, as long as we can clearly see AP wrecking Haki, your point fall flat. And we have a fuck ton of examples of those.


[/QUOTE]
Dude, I never said that non-Haki attacks couldn't do anything to a Haki defense, but proficiency matters. I'm saying that  Haki difference matters more as you climb tiers/proficiency with Haki. Luffy states this clear as day. You're treating Haki as if it's all the same. Haki is Haki, when that just isn't the case. FI Hody's bite wouldn't do anything to Luffy's Haki defense now, and that's what he was getting at. you still need a certain level of Haki to mitigate certain damage thresholds. Luffy had low-tier Haki at the time so it could only provide a low-tier defense, which Hody was able to break through without Haki., which is the point of Haki growth.



Kroczilla said:


> I'm not ignoring that when two Haki clash, the stronger would prevail. All I'm pointing out is that sufficient AP alone would just have easily wrecked Pica's haki defense. Case in point, Hody Vs Luffy.


And again, that's baseless in the face of character testimony. Pica thought he would be fine when coated in his own Haki, which he thought was strong. Zoro stated that is only the case if his Haki was stronger than his own. It wasn't and Pica got smacked. End of story. You're making a lot of assumptions here.


Kroczilla said:


> *For Luffy,it would be a haki thing.* For a GG fruit user, it would be a matter of mastering the ability to generate more powerful quakes. And yes, if Nami had the same lvl of mastery over the fruit as Teach, Kaido isn't taking a free hit from a DF that literally shakes oceans without serious damage.


Bold is my point except it isn't just for Luffy. Nami with GGnM and basic Haki isn't doing a thing to Kaido dude. Unless you think one quake punch from Nami is not > a G3/G4 assault from Luffy, which did absolutely fuck-all to Kaido.


Kroczilla said:


> Unclear. My guess is he morphed his body similar to Katakuri once he sensed that they could use Haki.


Nah, they clearly made contact and he was able to tell they were Haki users because of that. If Haki is just Haki and proficiency doesn't matter, they should be able to harm any Logia, right? Unless, of course, Sakazuki's Haki was simply stronger so they didn't do anything to him. Sounds familiar.


Kroczilla said:


> I'm not ignoring that Haki matters a lot, but you are ignoring the fact that the effects of Haki are obvious, regardless of whether it's used in a combat between two Haki users or a non user. And yes, regardless of the strength of your haki, AP is easily just as important. Heck there's a reason Luffy in finishing off CC, Doflamingo and Katakuri literally went with the biggest punch he could unleash in those instances as opposed to just pouring haki into a basic pistol.


CC is walking durability bypass. He doesn't win fights because he's stronger that you in any way shape or form. He just has to gas you and attack you internally. CC beats anyone in the verse if they allow him to gas them. Doffy and Katakuri were clearly matches for Luffy in Haki.


Kroczilla said:


> They are though. As I have been pointing out, Haji's key function is just about the most consistent thing about the power system. Unless Jinbei's attack is shown to have left a bigger impact on Wadatsumi, there is absolutely no reason by which to base the logic of him somehow having the stronger haki.


Jinbe has better Haki because he has several feats that prove this until shown otherwise, not because of their performance against...Wadatsumi. I think you're misunderstanding me a bit here.


Kroczilla said:


> That's literally what you are saying. Again,there is absolutely no reason to believe that Sanji's Haki when using HM is any weaker than Jinbei's when using VD. If Doffy isn't taking a Vagabond Drill without real damage, then that would inevitably be equally the case against HM.


That comment was strictly based off of their Haki performances. Sanji's attacks did nothing to Doffy. HM, his assumed ultimate attack might do a little, but Doffy's Haki is so much stronger than Sanji's at that point a lot of the damage would be mitigated. Jinbe has solid Haki feats against top tiers. VG is one of his best attacks if not the best and it should do more to Doffy because of the Haki difference.


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## Kroczilla (Sep 16, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Dude, I never said that non-Haki attacks couldn't do anything to a Haki defense, but proficiency matters. I'm saying that Haki difference matters more as you climb tiers/proficiency with Haki. Luffy states this clear as day. You're treating Haki as if it's all the same. Haki is Haki, when that just isn't the case. FI Hody's bite wouldn't do anything to Luffy's Haki defense now, and that's what he was getting at. you still need a certain level of Haki to mitigate certain damage thresholds. Luffy had low-tier Haki at the time so it could only provide a low-tier defense, which Hody was able to break through without Haki., which is the point of Haki growth.


Again, you keep ignoring the root of the matter. The very fact that it did happen, THAT A NON HAKI ATTACK PIERCED THROUGH HAKI IN THE FIIRST PLACE MAKES YOUR ARGUMENT INVALID. Pointing out that it wouldn't happen now coz Luffy's haki is much stronger than it was doesn't change the fact that it did happen. If anything it just leads the circular logic coz one could also say that Hody with improved steroids could break past said Haki defense.


Conxc said:


> And again, that's baseless in the face of character testimony. Pica thought he would be fine when coated in his own Haki, which he thought was strong. Zoro stated that is only the case if his Haki was stronger than his own. It wasn't and Pica got smacked. End of story. You're making a lot of assumptions here.




How is it an assumption to say that sufficient AP would break past Pica's haki when we literally see that happening with Luffy Vs Hody?



Conxc said:


> Bold is my point except it isn't just for Luffy. Nami with GGnM and basic Haki isn't doing a thing to Kaido dude. Unless you think one quake punch from Nami is not > a G3/G4 assault from Luffy, which did absolutely fuck-all to Kaido.


Yep, just absolutely No on this point. A single quake is literally tilting entire oceans and causing tsunamis on far away islands. To suggest that pre udon Luffy could do more damage than that is completely insane. All haki does is enhance physical abilities. It's not some magical concept that puts you above every other non-haki attack. Heck, we had big mom of all people clearly wary of getting hit by Franky's radical beam, a non haki attack. And now you expect me to believe that Luffy packs a greater punch than a fruit stated to be capable of ending the world? Man, than a massive reach, even for you.




Conxc said:


> Nah, they clearly made contact and he was able to tell they were Haki users because of that. If Haki is just Haki and proficiency doesn't matter, they should be able to harm any Logia, right? Unless, of course, Sakazuki's Haki was simply stronger so they didn't do anything to him. Sounds familiar.


We don't know if they made contact. Heck with Katakuri is looked like Luffy and every opponent he faced before then was "making contact" but we all know that that wasn't the case. Not to mention previous events work against your own interpretation. We literally saw Marco strike Admirals not once , but twice. And Vista was strong enough to contend with Mihawk i.e. his Haki is quite strong.

Akainu is the strongest Admiral by a hair. You are sort of suggesting by implication that his Haki is far above his peers whom Marco and even Jozu tagged without issues. Another reach on your part.


Conxc said:


> CC is walking durability bypass. He doesn't win fights because he's stronger that you in any way shape or form. He just has to gas you and attack you internally. CC beats anyone in the verse if they allow him to gas them. Doffy and Katakuri were clearly matches for Luffy in Haki.



You are deliberately missing the point. Luffy used his biggest attacks to finish both matches. A clear indication that while haki matters, the AP behind the attacks matters just as much. Heck this applies to just about every character in the series. We wouldn't for example compare a causal swing from big mom to an attack like Elbaf's spear coz one clearly has greater AP.



Conxc said:


> Jinbe has better Haki because he has several feats that prove this until shown otherwise, not because of their performance against...Wadatsumi. I think you're misunderstanding me a bit here.


Several feats such as? And again, if his Haki was greater than Sanji to the degree which you are suggesting, it would have been made obvious when they both attacked Wadatsumi. Coz Haki wouldn't stop performing it's core function of attack enhancement just coz the opponent has no haki.




Conxc said:


> That comment was strictly based off of their Haki performances. Sanji's attacks did nothing to Doffy. HM, his assumed ultimate attack might do a little, but Doffy's Haki is so much stronger than Sanji's at that point a lot of the damage would be mitigated. Jinbe has solid Haki feats against top tiers. VG is one of his best attacks if not the best and it should do more to Doffy because of the Haki difference.


It had no damage coz Doffy blocked and dodged. We've seen what happens when Doffy faces an attack far beneath his level. He straight up tanks that shit (case in point, baby 5).


Not to mention, those were casual attacks for the most part. Yes, Doffy's haki was stronger, but then again it was equally much stronger than Law's but that didn't stop the latter from nearly killing Doffy when he got the chance to land his ultimate attack. 

Again, if the difference in haki btwn Sanji and Jinbei was nearly as great as you are implying, we would most definitely have seen this come into play against Wadatsumi the same way you assume correctly that the haki difference between FI Luffy and Current Luffy would be obvious if they both faced Hody.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Ren. (Sep 17, 2021)

Claudio Swiss said:


> Folks need to understand DD ain't shit these days
> When he comes back we can talk until then Sanji cooks him


He ain't shit since WCI.

But people still wank him.
@Kroczilla  on WG DD is still a god and the same as Pica being YC2.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 4


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## xmysticgohanx (Sep 17, 2021)

pica was frfr a yc1+

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Ren. (Sep 17, 2021)

xmysticgohanx said:


> pica was frfr a yc1+





People really need to let go of DD, Adv COC Luffy that fought Hybrid Adv COC Kaido  would one shot DD with  a regular punch belami style.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## B Rabbit (Sep 17, 2021)

Totally forgot this thread existed but yeah. Doflamingo isn't much these days. Blame the powercreeps.

The same powercreeps that he will benefit from when he comes back.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2


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## Conxc (Sep 17, 2021)

Kroczilla said:


> Again, you keep ignoring the root of the matter. The very fact that it did happen, THAT A NON HAKI ATTACK PIERCED THROUGH HAKI IN THE FIIRST PLACE MAKES YOUR ARGUMENT INVALID. Pointing out that it wouldn't happen now coz Luffy's haki is much stronger than it was doesn't change the fact that it did happen. If anything it just leads the circular logic coz one could also say that Hody with improved steroids could break past said Haki defense.


I just had to go back and make sure that I didn't say that regular attacks can't do anything to Haki defense, and I didn't. In fact, in the very line you quoted here, I emphasized that isn't my stance. Go figure.

My stance is that Haki matters more than the actual attack at a certain level. Meaning, the damage that can be mitigated by a Haki defense as well as the AP enhancement granted mean smore than just base attacks. 

Haki proficiency between all of this:

*Spoiler*: __ 









managing nothing but a sigh of boredom from Kaido to this:

Doing more in one G2 attack, having Kaido on the ground like he didn't know what hit him. This is irrefutable.

*You are right. *Haki-less Hody was able to injure Luffy through his defense, but m\again, my argument is not that that isn't possible. Simply that Haki matters more and is the deciding factor in fights. How much damage do you think Hody would have done there if Luffy didn't have Haki to defend and mitigate some of that damage? More, and that's my point. Besides, you're treating entry level Haki as if that's all anyone has, which is just incorrect.


Kroczilla said:


> How is it an assumption to say that sufficient AP would break past Pica's haki when we literally see that happening with Luffy Vs Hody?


What you're not realizing, Kroc, is that for what you're saying, it's gotta be someone clear-cut above Pica here to pull that off using no Haki. On the tier that Pica is currently on, *everyone* uses Haki. Needless to say, the characters above this tier all use Haki, and it's undoubtedly stronger than Pica's. Anyone that you have in mind is who they are because of their Haki proficiency. You're also ignoring that Haki is what makes their AP what it is. Top tiers are top tiers because of their *Haki. *No top tier would be as strong as they are without that level of Haki. As disappointing as the VA's have been, they still are *required *to be Haki users to make that rank and there isn't a single one that can't use it no matter what DF they have.


Kroczilla said:


> Yep, just absolutely No on this point. A single quake is literally tilting entire oceans and causing tsunamis on far away islands. To suggest that pre udon Luffy could do more damage than that is completely insane. All haki does is enhance physical abilities. It's not some magical concept that puts you above every other non-haki attack. Heck, we had big mom of all people clearly wary of getting hit by Franky's radical beam, a non haki attack. And now you expect me to believe that Luffy packs a greater punch than a fruit stated to be capable of ending the world? Man, than a massive reach, even for you.


Did it ever occur to you that WB was creating those feats using top tier Haki? Again, this manga has been all about Haki users vs Haki users and better Haki coming out on top since PH. At that level and up everyone uses Haki to enhance their fighting style *by default. *WB was doing all that he did using Haki. You can't possibly think that all those attacks Luffy used on Kaido don't amount to or exceed a single quake with no Haki.


Kroczilla said:


> We don't know if they made contact. Heck with Katakuri is looked like Luffy and every opponent he faced before then was "making contact" but we all know that that wasn't the case. Not to mention previous events work against your own interpretation. We literally saw Marco strike Admirals not once , but twice. And Vista was strong enough to contend with Mihawk i.e. his Haki is quite strong.


Not only did they catch him off-guard, but he said "NGH...AHH..." showing that the attacks did connect and that they did do *something *but hardly anything, so we know, *again, *for a fact that the attacks connected. It's irrefutable.

He managed the other guys just as he did Sakazuki and he did little to no damage to any of the three. I don't see what you're getting at. As we saw with Marco and Jozu, their Haki is strong enough to stall these guys, but not enough to win against them. Vista is no different. Pretty silly "point" there.


Kroczilla said:


> Akainu is the strongest Admiral by a hair. You are sort of suggesting by implication that his Haki is far above his peers whom Marco and even Jozu tagged without issues. Another reach on your part.


Marco didn't do any damage to *any* of the the C3. Jozu made Aokiji's lip bleed. I know made up tiers are big here so to you guys Jozu couldn't possibly be better at Marco at anything seeing how Marco is a "YC1" and Jozu is just a "YC2", but maybe, just maybe Jozu's CoA is better than Marco's. I recall them both landing clean hits onto Aokiji but only one of them drawing any blood. It doesn't have to be a huge difference either. Same for the Admirals. At the end of the day Jozu didn't break Aokji's arm, All he managed was a bloody lip. Use that noggin Kroc.


Kroczilla said:


> You are deliberately missing the point. Luffy used his biggest attacks to finish both matches. A clear indication that while haki matters, the AP behind the attacks matters just as much. Heck this applies to just about every character in the series. We wouldn't for example compare a causal swing from big mom to an attack like Elbaf's spear coz one clearly has greater AP.


This remains a silly example because CC is not a Haki user, He has no Haki defense and Luffy was wailing on him with non-G3 attacks as well and could've finished him any way he pleased. I'm taking a casual base punch that current Luffy is using against Kaido even without ACoC over PH Luffy's G3 attacks any day. Again, AP matters, but Haki matters more and there are too many examples of this for this to even be a debate.


Kroczilla said:


> Several feats such as? And again, if his Haki was greater than Sanji to the degree which you are suggesting, it would have been made obvious when they both attacked Wadatsumi. Coz Haki wouldn't stop performing it's core function of attack enhancement just coz the opponent has no haki.


You're not serious. I always scratch my head when people, especially Sanji fans ask this. Short term memory.


And this is just *pure *Haki diff:

How would a Haki diff have been made clear when the only two Haki users in that fight were on the same team and attacking a target that can't use Haki? That doesn't even make sense dude. The feats for Jinbe that I posted above are leagues better than what Sanji has shown *overall*, let a lone pure Haki feats. It's not even a competition until Sanji shows better. Feat for feat, Jinbe would body Sanji.


Kroczilla said:


> It had no damage coz Doffy blocked and dodged. We've seen what happens when Doffy faces an attack far beneath his level. He straight up tanks that shit (case in point, baby 5).


It had no damage because Doffy's Haki was superior by a decent margin. Doffy is fast enough to dodge every attack Sanji through at him. Just because he didn't stand there spread-eagle doesn't change the fact that all of Sanji's attacks connected and none of them did a thing. That fight was very clear. Sanji was outclassed in every way, shape and form.


Kroczilla said:


> Not to mention, those were casual attacks for the most part. Yes, Doffy's haki was stronger, but then again it was equally much stronger than Law's but that didn't stop the latter from nearly killing Doffy when he got the chance to land his ultimate attack.


Law's attacks bypass durability. Terrible comparison. Those were not casual attacks. Sanji was trying to do something and failed. Simple as that. Sanji was the only one taking that fight seriously.


Kroczilla said:


> Again, if the difference in haki btwn Sanji and Jinbei was nearly as great as you are implying, we would most definitely have seen this come into play against Wadatsumi the same way you assume correctly that the haki difference between FI Luffy and Current Luffy would be obvious if they both faced Hody.


I don't see why you think the gap would only be validated against Wadatsumi of all people. Jinbe has great feats against *top tiers. *Sanji hasn't even had a whiff of a top tier fight. He struggle with BM Veteran ministers who aren't even commander level. I don't understand how you can ignore that. Feats and portrayal suggest Sanji is a scrub. You guys cling to this whole M3 BS and silly ABC placement over what the characters have actually shown.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Conxc (Sep 17, 2021)

lmao. Y'all not serious man.

*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Lmao (Sep 17, 2021)

Conxc said:


> lmao. Y'all not serious man.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


Tbh this reaction is more so that BM was falling into the sea more than anything.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## cry77 (Sep 17, 2021)

Sanji really SHOULD mid-diff at this point, but I admit he doesnt exactly have the feats just yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## cry77 (Sep 17, 2021)

Baroxio said:


> This fight happened on panel, and Donflamingo won with mid-to-low difficulty. He also tanked Gear 4 Luffy. While I think Sanji has grown stronger since then, I think it's a bit of a stretch to say that his kicks in base have surpassed Gear 4 Luffy's attack potency. I don't particularly subscribe to A>B>C logic, especially in this case, where current Base Sanji isn't actually doing damage to Queen yet. Seriously, wait for him to get his power-up before expecting this matchup to have changed massively, IMHO.


Doffy didnt tank shit, he got fucked up by every last G4 hit that landed.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 3


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## Kroczilla (Sep 17, 2021)

Conxc said:


> *You are right. *Haki-less Hody was able to injure Luffy through his defense, but m\again, my argument is not that that isn't possible. Simply that Haki matters more and is the deciding factor in fights. How much damage do you think Hody would have done there if Luffy didn't have Haki to defend and mitigate some of that damage? More, and that's my point. Besides, you're treating entry level Haki as if that's all anyone has, which is just incorrect.



Again, this really is all pointless. The fact that it did happen = end of discussion. Moving on.



Conxc said:


> What you're not realizing, Kroc, is that for what you're saying, it's gotta be someone clear-cut above Pica here to pull that off using no Haki. On the tier that Pica is currently on, *everyone* uses Haki. Needless to say, the characters above this tier all use Haki, and it's undoubtedly stronger than Pica's. Anyone that you have in mind is who they are because of their Haki proficiency. You're also ignoring that Haki is what makes their AP what it is. Top tiers are top tiers because of their *Haki. *No top tier would be as strong as they are without that level of Haki. As disappointing as the VA's have been, they still are *required *to be Haki users to make that rank and there isn't a single one that can't use it no matter what DF they have.


You are right that no top tier would be strong without powerful haki. But no top tier would be strong without powerful AP as well. Those two go hand in hand and there are far too many examples of top tiers who have a clear, established scale of attack. Haki is what ENHANCES their AP, not what makes it. Luffy for example can still use every single one of his techniques just fine without haki and you wouldn't need to be a genius to recognise that certain attacks>>>> several others. All haki does is enhance said attacks but at the end of the day, without the AP behind it, it's gonna get trashed.


Conxc said:


> Did it ever occur to you that WB was creating those feats using top tier Haki? Again, this manga has been all about Haki users vs Haki users and better Haki coming out on top since PH. At that level and up everyone uses Haki to enhance their fighting style *by default. *WB was doing all that he did using Haki. You can't possibly think that all those attacks Luffy used on Kaido don't amount to or exceed a single quake with no Haki.


Yeah,this is a very silly reach. BB who isn't even close to WB got the fruit and was literally performing the same feats with zero effort. That's literally what the fruit does, generate quakes same way Crocodile's DF generates sand etc.

And yes, it absolutely reasonable to conclude that none of Luffy's attacks at the time came close to a quake punch. His best feat till date of splitting DR is literally child's play compared to the power the fruit generates just by the user flexing a bit.


Conxc said:


> Not only did they catch him off-guard, but he said "NGH...AHH..." showing that the attacks did connect and that they did do *something *but hardly anything, so we know, *again, *for a fact that the attacks connected. It's irrefutable.
> 
> He managed the other guys just as he did Sakazuki and he did little to no damage to any of the three. I don't see what you're getting at. As we saw with Marco and Jozu, their Haki is strong enough to stall these guys, but not enough to win against them. Vista is no different. Pretty silly "point" there.


Again, show me where Marco's attacks phased through Aokiji and Kizaru like they did Akainu. Until I get that, I'm afraid all I can accept from you is a concession.


Conxc said:


> Marco didn't do any damage to *any* of the the C3. Jozu made Aokiji's lip bleed. I know made up tiers are big here so to you guys Jozu couldn't possibly be better at Marco at anything seeing how Marco is a "YC1" and Jozu is just a "YC2", but maybe, just maybe Jozu's CoA is better than Marco's. I recall them both landing clean hits onto Aokiji but only one of them drawing any blood. It doesn't have to be a huge difference either. Same for the Admirals. At the end of the day Jozu didn't break Aokji's arm, All he managed was a bloody lip. Use that noggin Kroc.


See above. By your logic, their attack should have connected squarely with Akainu but done little damage as opposed to just phasing right through him. Haki literally let's you touch Logia users squarely. Even Tashigi who was fodder compared to Monet was able to physically restrain the logis user coz she had basic knowledge of haki.

I would advise that you take your own advice and "use that noggin".


Conxc said:


> This remains a silly example because CC is not a Haki user, He has no Haki defense and Luffy was wailing on him with non-G3 attacks as well and could've finished him any way he pleased. I'm taking a casual base punch that current Luffy is using against Kaido even without ACoC over PH Luffy's G3 attacks any day. Again, AP matters, but Haki matters more and there are too many examples of this for this to even be a debate.


At this point, it's easy to see that you are trolling. There's absolutely no way one can consistently miss the point being made and keep referring to an argument that I never made. Why does the fact that CC have no haki matter especially when I expressly showed that Luffy finishes things off with all his opponents in a similar fashion i.e. by using the attacks with the highest AP at his disposal. If haki mattered more, then that wouldn't have been the case. AP and Haki go hand in hand.


Conxc said:


> You're not serious. I always scratch my head when people, especially Sanji fans ask this. Short term memory.


You keep posting the same stuff on repeat.


Cancelling out a serious attack from healthy big mom is just as impressive as what Jinbei accomplished considering that the big mom his faced was much weaker than her healthy self. Also big mom got knocked down by Franky driving a bike to her face.



Yes, Sanji earlier got knocked back by Daifuku but then literally stopped the largest size of the genie which had earlier wiped out a fleet of ships in one hit.


Unlike you, I'm not on a mission to shit on characters I don't like. Jinbei also has his share of lack luster feats such as getting stale mate by G2 Luffy and some random officer of the big mom crew, but anyone with a modicum of honesty would know that using low end feats is a trash way of judging a character.



Conxc said:


> And this is just *pure *Haki diff:


Now would be a good time to point out that the author indicates Sanji would have had a similar feat against BM. Even when captured he literally couldn't use COA against her for fear that she would hurt herself trying to hit him.


Conxc said:


> How would a Haki diff have been made clear when the only two Haki users in that fight were on the same team and attacking a target that can't use Haki? That doesn't even make sense dude. The feats for Jinbe that I posted above are leagues better than what Sanji has shown *overall*, let a lone pure Haki feats. It's not even a competition until Sanji shows better. Feat for feat, Jinbe would body Sanji.


Yep, you really need to take your own advise on the whole noggin thing. You literally just argued that Currently, Luffy wouldn't have the same issues with Hody as he did in their earlier fight coz his Haki is stronger. Haki literally enhances attack or defence whether it's used against another Haki user or a non-haki user. This is just pure dishonesty on your part is trying to draw a distinction where no exists. It's about as retarded as suggesting that Luffy punching Hody now Vs during FI Arc would result in similar damage coz hOdY CaN'T uSE hAkI.

For real, I can't be the only one who sees how retarded this proposition is.


Conxc said:


> It had no damage because Doffy's Haki was superior by a decent margin. Doffy is fast enough to dodge every attack Sanji through at him. Just because he didn't stand there spread-eagle doesn't change the fact that all of Sanji's attacks connected and none of them did a thing. That fight was very clear. Sanji was outclassed in every way, shape and form.


The attacks connected against a block i.e. unless Sanji's attack is powerful enough to overwhelm his block, it obviously wouldn't do any damage. Again, this is not remotely comparable to Luffy getting a free hit with Red hawk while Doffy guard was completely down. But back to the main point.

We were explicitly told and shown that Sanji was unfamiliar with Doffy's techniques such as Parasite which was ultimately how he lost. Except your argument is that Jinbei can break out of parasite, then there is no argument to be had in that regard. Further, saying that his initial attacks failing to break Doffy's block translate to his far more powerful finisher being incapable of hurting Doffy is the height of dishonesty. Luffy's earlier attacks only started doing something resembling damage after Doffy got hit with gamma knife. But then he used his ultimate technique and we all know how the story ends. Heck let's take Zoro for example. No one would be so retarded as to suggest that just coz King tanked Onigiri straight to the chest, he wouldn't be bothered by a hit from Ashura. Well I guess you could be that retarded coz that's literally what you're suggesting.


Conxc said:


> Law's attacks bypass durability. Terrible comparison. Those were not casual attacks. Sanji was trying to do something and failed. Simple as that. Sanji was the only one taking that fight seriously.




They are casual attacks in the sense that Sanji has much more powerful moves in his arsenal. Doffy was taking the fight seriously as well. He recognised Sanji would be a problem and used Parasite and subsequently Overheat to end it as quick as possible. It's ridiculous to argue that Character X using two of their high lvl attacks in quick succession = not taking a fight seriously.

With respect to gamma knife, going by your logic, Haki is all that matters. Hence, by your logic, Doffy should not have been hurt by gamma knife despite its AP. Last I checked, Haki would still be within Doffy's body which was GK's target.


Conxc said:


> I don't see why you think the gap would only be validated against Wadatsumi of all people. Jinbe has great feats against *top tiers. *Sanji hasn't even had a whiff of a top tier fight. He struggle with BM Veteran ministers who aren't even commander level. I don't understand how you can ignore that. Feats and portrayal suggest Sanji is a scrub. You guys cling to this whole M3 BS and silly ABC placement over what the characters have actually shown.






Sanji helped stop an attack from big mom, is fast enough to blitz her Veteran ministers and dodge a surprise attack from her strongest commander and is currently taking on an opponent capable of knocking out a Yonko. Again, you are being your usual dishonest self as with all things Sanji related.

Yes, he has some low showings, but the again so does Luffy. Again, if the author wanted to show Jinbei as having far superior attack power, the Wadatsumi fight was literally the perfect example, yet that didn't happen. If anything, Sanji came out looking better. You might think Sanji is some scrub, but the actual Manga disagrees with your opinion.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 3 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Conxc (Sep 18, 2021)

@Kroczilla Gonna keep it real with you Kroc, based on my experience with you, you will never admit that you're wrong, even when proven wrong with evidence. With that said, I'm just gonna drop my tier specialist and go. I got up to the part where you tried to equate Jinbe single handedly stopping BM's attack to attributing the combined effort of Luffy and Sanji stopping an attack, solely to Sanji, but you wanna talk about dishonest. I debate to debate and its fun. You debate to save face. You can say I conceded if you want. Debating against someone who *can't *be wrong even when they are isn't fun at all.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Kroczilla (Sep 18, 2021)

@Conxc well tbh, I never really expected anything different from you. You are who you've always been. In your eyes, Sanji will always be a scrub coz your hate ruins your ability for objectivity. Sad really. It's so pathetic to the extent that not even Marco is safe from getting shat on just so you can push your agenda. 

Jinbei's feat was against a sickly big mom who tbh looked like she was dying. Sanji's feat was against a healthy big mom. There is absolutely room for comparison btwn the two, especially as Sanji wasn't even using his more powerful attacks.

But yeah,I guess it's a good place to end things. Btw, why don't you go on and tag all my posts with the Tier Specialist rating. ASeems like that shit gets you hard.

Reactions: Funny 5 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Kroczilla (Sep 18, 2021)

Conxc said:


> Debating against someone who *can't *be wrong even when they are isn't fun at all.

Reactions: Funny 4


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## Conxc (Sep 18, 2021)

@Kroczilla Nah, bud. You earn each and every one. One of the most deserving posters on this forum.

Reactions: Creative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

cry77 said:


> Doffy didnt tank shit, he got fucked up by every last G4 hit that landed.


G4 literally dropkicked him in the face and he walked it off.
Leobazooka hit him without haki defenses and he recovered in seconds.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Kroczilla (Sep 18, 2021)

Conxc said:


> @Kroczilla Nah, bud. You earn each and every one. One of the most deserving posters on this forum.


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## Conxc (Sep 18, 2021)

I mean, you can take all the personal jabs you want. All I know is the jokes do always write themselves.

You're a _nice _guy,_ Kroc._


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## Kroczilla (Sep 18, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean, you can take all the personal jabs you want. All I know is the jokes do always write themselves.
> 
> *You're a nice guy,*_* Kroc*._


I take jabs in response to jabs thrown.

Also @bolded,I know. Don't anyone to tell me that


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## Conxc (Sep 18, 2021)

Conxc said:


> I mean, you can take all the personal jabs you want. *All I know is the jokes do always write themselves.*
> 
> You're a _nice _guy,_ Kroc._


I'm not saying I'm a prophet but...


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## A Optimistic (Sep 18, 2021)



Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ren. (Sep 18, 2021)

A Optimistic said:


>

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> G4 literally dropkicked him in the face and he walked it off.
> Leobazooka hit him without haki defenses and he recovered in seconds.


Come on now; all of that is the opposite of tanking dude. After Leo Bazooka, my man Doflamingo was reduced to a slow stroll up until he pulled out God Thread.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> G4 literally dropkicked him in the face and he walked it off.
> Leobazooka hit him without haki defenses and he recovered in seconds.


Doffy was out for a while

*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 









Only after Luffy ran out of haki did Doffy start to make a move

*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Sep 18, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Doffy was out for a while
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


This feals like a deja vu from 2015 for me.

DD was no way near a match for the most basic G4 moves.

a mid level move like Leo bazooka almost finished him, replace it with KKG and he was done.


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Doffy was not in a good conidtion after taking that Leo bazooka


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Doffy was out for a while
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...





Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Come on now; all of that is the opposite of tanking dude. After Leo Bazooka, my man Doflamingo was reduced to a slow stroll up until he pulled out God Thread.


How's this contradicting anything I said?

DD took Rhino Schneider to the face and bounced back. I never said LB didn't significantly hurt him, but that he quickly recovered despite not using armament. Hell, and than the pain. . DD is capable of tanking G4 blows (as in, any damage is cosmetic) if he's protecting himself, but even unprotected, a direct hit won't have him down for more than a few seconds.


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## Lord Stark (Sep 18, 2021)

_Mid diff? _Are people high? Sanji in base is not faster or stronger than any form of G4 Luffy. Doflamingo is a commander level combatant. Sanji needs the raid suit to compete. Sanji doesn't even have the firepower in base to bypass his Awakening defense.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> How's this contradicting anything I said?
> 
> DD took Rhino Schneider to the face and bounced back. I never said LB didn't significantly hurt him, but that he quickly recovered despite not using armament. Hell, and than the pain. . DD is capable of tanking G4 blows (as in, any damage is cosmetic) if he's protecting himself, but even unprotected, a direct hit won't have him down for more than a few seconds.


Dude how was the damage cosmetic? He took 4 hits and was knocked unconscious.

Then, when he woke up he was clearly have trouble with mobility since instead of running through the skies to find Luffy like he would normally do, he started slowly walking down the road. We even see that he's trembling and hobbling:


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Dude how was the damage cosmetic?


It'll make him bleed/show damage but it won't affect his fighting ability or stamina.


Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He took 4 hits and was knocked unconscious.





Sablés said:


> DD is capable of tanking G4 blows (as in, any damage is cosmetic) if he's protecting himself, but even unprotected, a direct hit won't have him down for more than a few seconds.



DD clad in haki - Tanks G4
DD not clad in haki - Tanks Culverin, gets fucked by Leo Bazooka, but gets up from that quickly anyway.

LB was NOT tanked, but DD didn't protect himself with haki.


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> How's this contradicting anything I said?
> 
> DD took Rhino Schneider to the face and bounced back. I never said LB didn't significantly hurt him, but that he quickly recovered despite not using armament. Hell, and than the pain. . DD is capable of tanking G4 blows (as in, any damage is cosmetic) if he's protecting himself, but even unprotected, a direct hit won't have him down for more than a few seconds.


Dd was out after that bazooka, took a while to get jump and then wobbled his way back to the fight. 

Luffy had to just hit him with one more attack to finish him.


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Dd was out after that bazooka


Actually read what you're quoting.


Sablés said:


> never said LB didn't significantly hurt him, but that he quickly recovered despite not using armament.


It was literally a span of a few pages before he's up again, and he wasn't using haki.


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Actually read what you're quoting.


I wouldn't call doffys recovery quick.  He was a sitting duck for a while


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> DD clad in haki - Tanks G4


He really doesn't though (I assume youre referring to hardening):





You just seem to have an odd definition of "tanked." You seem to be saying that if the character is able to quickly continue fighting and isn't knocked out, the hit was tanked. That's just not how most fans use the term. It's pretty clear that he was fucked up from all 4 hits.


Sablés said:


> It was literally a span of a few pages before he's up again, and he wasn't using haki.


He was definitely using haki and he had his guard up. No way to know if his belly was hardened though.


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He really doesn't though.
> 
> You just seem to have an odd definition of "tanked." You seem to be saying that if the character is able to quickly continue fighting and isn't knocked out, the hit was tanked. That's just not how most fans use the term. It's pretty clear that he was fucked up from all 4 hits.


One question so I know if we're on the same page. Would you say Queen tanked Marco's firebrand or not?


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> He really doesn't though (I assume youre referring to hardening):
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Doffy could do nothing to g4, if there Luffy went for the kill after bazooka Luffy would have won in the time limit of g4

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> One question so I know if we're on the same page. Would you say Queen tanked Marco's firebrand or not?


Definitely not, and no, we're not on the same page. King and Queen didn't tank any hit we saw Marco land, and Doflamingo sure as shit didn't tank any hit he took from Bounceman.

You seem to be one of those "only the hit that ends the fight really matters" type of reader.


MrPopo said:


> Doffy could do nothing to g4, if there Luffy went for the kill after bazooka Luffy would have won in the time limit of g4


Exactly. Luffy wasn't sure if Doflamingo was really done until he realized Bird Cage was still up.

I don't even get how saying "well _actually _it only took 2 hits to knock Doflamingo out instead of 4" is supposed to be somehow better for Doflamingo's situation anyway.

I guess it's to prove that Doflamingo has amazing defense but Bounceman smashed through Doflamingo's guard every time he threw it up.


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## Sablés (Sep 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Definitely not


Despite the fact that beyond making Queen bleed, Queen suffered literally no decrease in his performance and is perfectly fine literally several chapters of battle afterwards? If your definition for tanking is sustaining 0 damage, this argument is worthless.  A distinction without meaning.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Sep 18, 2021)

Sablés said:


> Despite the fact that beyond making Queen bleed, Queen suffered literally no decrease in his performance and is perfectly fine literally several chapters of battle afterwards?


Dude very few hits on their own actually affect an opponents fighting style or severely hamper their body.

For example, Luffy hit Lucci a hundred times but Gear 3rd is the only hit that noticeably affected Luccis ability to continue fighting. Does that mean the other hits were "tanked" or that they did not matter to the outcome? Of course not. Lucci's stamina was whittled down with many effective hits over time. In the same way, Rokugan wasn't the only effective or meaningful hits that were landed on Luffy during that match.



Sablés said:


> If your definition for tanking is sustaining 0 damage, this argument is worthless.  A distinction without meaning.


Well no, you actually provided the meaning. You just dont care to differentiate between attacks in the same way that others do.

For you, the attack either seriously impares a characters ability to continue fighting or it doesn't. Other readers can recognize when an attack does damage even if it's not debilitating.

You should recognize that most readers would agree with Cry's assertion that every Bounceman hit fucked Doflamingo up and that he wasn't tanking hits just because he wasn't rendered unconcious or crippled by each hit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## MrPopo (Sep 18, 2021)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Dude very few hits on their own actually affect an opponents fighting style or severely hamper their body.
> 
> For example, Luffy hit Lucci a hundred times but Gear 3rd is the only hit that noticeably affected Luccis ability to continue fighting. Does that mean the other hits were "tanked" or that they did not matter to the outcome? Of course not. Lucci's stamina was whittled down with many effective hits over time. In the same way, Rokugan wasn't the only effective or meaningful hits that were landed on Luffy during that match.
> 
> ...


Luffy even said he only needed one more hit after the Leo boozuka and that's turns out true as only one more attack was used to put Doffy down

Reactions: Agree 4


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## Lord Stark (Sep 19, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Luffy even said he only needed one more hit after the Leo boozuka and that's turns out true as only one more attack was used to put Doffy down



Lol he used King Kong Gun, which to this day is the most destructive attack in Luffy's arsenal. Its not like another Kong Gun would have put him down.


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## MrPopo (Sep 19, 2021)

Lord Stark said:


> Lol he used King Kong Gun, which to this day is the most destructive attack in Luffy's arsenal. Its not like another Kong Gun would have put him down.


It was a King Kong Gun that over-powered Doffys spider-web and god thread, If Luffy had hit Doffy with another g4 attack after the leo bazooka Doffy would be finished

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lord Stark (Sep 19, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> It was a King Kong Gun that over-powered Doffys spider-web and god thread, If Luffy had hit Doffy with another g4 attack after the leo bazooka Doffy would be finished



Yeah disagree lol. A Kong Gun wouldn't have done shit. And you know who agrees? Luffy. KKG comes with immense risks.


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## MrPopo (Sep 19, 2021)

Lord Stark said:


> Yeah disagree lol. A Kong Gun wouldn't have done shit. And you know who agrees? Luffy. KKG comes with immense risks.


Doffy was on his last legs after that bazooka


MrPopo said:


> Doffy was not in a good conidtion after taking that Leo bazooka


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## Lord Stark (Sep 19, 2021)

MrPopo said:


> Doffy was on his last legs after that bazooka



That isn't evidence. Literally the same exchange almost word for word was shown after Doffy got Gamma Knife'd and he took multiple G4 attacks after this. So again, prove a single Kong Gun would have ended him or stop pushing this.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> I think Sanji with full suit-access and no in-story plot influence would lose to DD off of what we have so far


yall are gonna read that wall of text after this???


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## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> yall are gonna read that wall of text after this???



You're welcome to go for any aspect of the stance(s), dearest poster.

(As with anything on here, the extent of my possible response would then be dictated by my mood/boredom/_general capacity to do so_ at that time.)


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> You're welcome to go for any aspect of the stance(s), dearest poster.
> 
> (As with anything on here, the extent of my possible response would then be dictated by my mood/boredom/_general capacity to do so_ at that time.)


i almost never read wall of text even if it's in support of a position i think is reasonable

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Datassassin (Sep 19, 2021)

truedetectiveseason2intro said:


> i almost never read wall of text even if it's in support of a position i think is reasonable


IMO the marriage of short and longer-form responses are what help define a forum format like this as opposed to say, Twitter, but reading preferences are reading preferences.


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## truedetectiveseason2intro (Sep 19, 2021)

Datassassin said:


> IMO the marriage of short and longer-form responses are what help define a forum format like this as opposed to say, Twitter, but reading preferences are reading preferences.


i should say battledome posts and the biggest reason is for spoilers


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