# Tobirama vs Base Minato - Comparison



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* 
*Raw Speed:* Minato
*Shunshin Speed:*
*Reflexes:* 
*Durability:* 
*Versatility:* Tobirama [ET]

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* 
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama [ET]
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* 
*Tactics:* 

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:*

I'll edit my list accordingly as the thread progresses.


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## ThatGreekLady (Jan 19, 2016)

Knowledge: Tobirama

Tactics: Tobirama

Offensive Ninjutsu: Minato (what offensive ninjutsu does Tobirama even use other than this water technique?)


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

ThatGreekLady said:


> Knowledge: Tobirama
> 
> Tactics: Tobirama
> 
> Offensive Ninjutsu: Minato (what offensive ninjutsu does Tobirama even use other than this water technique?)



Edo Tensei & Suiton: Suidanha > Rasengan imo


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tie
*Raw Speed:* Minato
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Tie
*Durability:* Tobirama
*Versatility:* Tobirama

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* Tie
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama
*Sensory Abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama


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## Complete_Ownage (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama
*Raw Speed:* Minato
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:*  Tobirama
*Durability:* Tobirama
*Versatility:* Tie??? Tobirama has edo Tensei however Minato has hax fuinjutsu

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tie? FTG & Rasengan vs FTG * Edo Tensei
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato? But didn't tobirama mention something about using a barrier too?
*Taijutsu:* 
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama - Rather have Edo Tensei then Frog army although Ma + Pa in certain scenarios would be preferable 
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

^ Take this category with ease

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

The barrier was described as Minato's speciality in the Databook and Tobirama wasn't mentioned in the entry either.

*Edit:*



> 飛雷神: 導雷// Hiraishin: Dourai // Flying Thunder God: Guiding Thunder
> 
> ミナトが得意とする時空間結界の術。空中に時空の裂け目を作り、 九尾が放った巨大な ”尾獣玉” を一瞬にして吸い込み、別の場所へと転送した。
> 
> It is a space-time barrier jutsu that is Minato’s forte (/specialty). Producing a tear in space-time in the air, the enormous “Bijyudama” (/Tailed Beast Ball) that was fired by the Kyuubi was instantaneously suctioned and transferred to another place.


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: Tobirama
Raw Speed: Minato
Shunshin Speed: Minato
Reflexes: Minato
Durability: Tobirama
Versatility: Tie

Offensive Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: Minato
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama
Sensory abilities: Tobirama

Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tie

Chakra Control: Minato
Chakra Capacity: Tobirama

Filling this in reminded me how much of a genius Tobirama was


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## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength*: Tobirama
*Raw Speed*: Minato
*Shunshin Speed*: Minato
*Reflexes*: Tobirama
*Durability*: Tobirama
*Versatility*: Tobirama 

*Offensive Ninjutsu*: Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu*: Tobirama
*Taijutsu*: Tie
*Fuinjutsu*: Minato
*Kuchiyose*: Tobirama 
*Sensory abilities*: Tobirama

*Intelligence*: Tobirama
*Knowledge*: Tobirama
*Tactics*: Tobirama

*Chakra Contro*l: Tobirama
*Chakra Capacity*: Tobirama


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

why is Tobirama above Minato in tactics?


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## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> why is Tobirama above Minato in tactics?



Because when they faced the same opponent, Tobirama came up with the tactics (use goshun mawashi and Sasuke and Naruto's attack). Because he succeeded in identifying the weakness of the jyuubi jin and came up with a tactic to exploit it while Minato was oblivious to the fact.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: Tobirama most likely.
Raw Speed: Should be no apparent difference.
Shunshin Speed: Minato. Canon fact.
Reflexes: Tobirama. Feats prove this.
Durability: No apparent difference.
Versatility: Tobirama 

Offensive Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: No apparent difference.
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama 
Sensory abilities: Tobirama 

Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra Control: No apparent difference.
Chakra Capacity: Probably Tobirama.

Overall, Tobirama is superior to Base Minato. Easily superior if we grant him Edo Tensei. W/ Edo Tensei he's superior to any version of Minato bar Kurama Mode.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

*@KoM*

By raw speed I mean pure running speed without the use of Hiraishin or Shunshin.



Senjuclan said:


> Because he succeeded in identifying the weakness of the jyuubi jin and came up with a tactic to exploit it while Minato was oblivious to the fact.



Even more impressive since Minato had trained in Senjutsu himself and didn't realise...


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama because he's a Senju.
*Raw Speed:* Tobirama
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Draw
*Durability:* Tobirama because he's a Senju
*Versatility:* Tobirama because ET, and Suiton Mastery.

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* Going with Draw
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama [ET]
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Draw, Tobirama shined a bit more in the War arc but Minato has two other fights to compensate.

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama because he's a Senju

Not counting SM because he admittedly never used in combat until the war, and because KCM/BM is unfair and only capable because he was Edo.


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Because when they faced the same opponent, Tobirama came up with the tactics (use goshun mawashi and Sasuke and Naruto's attack). Because he succeeded in identifying the weakness of the jyuubi jin and came up with a tactic to exploit it while Minato was oblivious to the fact.



Fair enough.



KeyofMiracles said:


> Raw Speed: Not sure what raw speed means, *but since Tobirama is superior to Minato in every kind of speed bar Shunshin*, I'll give this to him.



When did this happen?


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## Bonly (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tie
*Raw Speed:* Minato
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Tie
*Durability:* Tie
*Versatility:* Minato

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobi
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* Tie
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Minato
*Sensory abilities:* Tie

*Intelligence:* Tie
*Knowledge:* Tie
*Tactics:* Tie

*Chakra Control:* Tie
*Chakra Capacity:* Minato


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## Kai (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama
*Raw Speed:* Inconclusive
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Tobirama
*Durability:* Inconclusive
*Versatility*: Tobirama

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama
*Fuuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama
*Sensory ability:* Tobirama

*Intelligence: *Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

I give Minato the nod in Chakra control because of the way he was able to utilise the Kyubi's Chakra with no effort (retarded asspull but whatever) and his ability to use Sage Mode.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

Minato solos. 





I don't know if the links in there still works tho. 

Edit: seems like they don't, oh well. 
I might fix them later on.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Fair enough.
> 
> 
> 
> When did this happen?



When he tagged Juubito while Base Minato could only manage a flick of the wrist against Ay.



Itachі said:


> *@KoM*
> 
> By raw speed I mean pure running speed without the use of Hiraishin or Shunshin.
> 
> ...



Hmm, alright. Then I'll just say that they are equal in that regard. Should be no apparent difference.


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## Rai (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: There shouldn't be a difference
Raw Speed: There shouldn't be a difference
Shunshin Speed: Minato
Reflexes: Tobirama
Durability: There shouldn't be a difference
Versatility: Tobirama

Offensive Ninjutsu: Minato - Rasengan solos  while ET needs prep
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato - S/T barrier can teleport a super-charged Bijuudama from Full Kurama
Taijutsu: Minato - all the kunais in the field.
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Minato - Trio toads + two great sage toad + all toads of their village - according to Kishi's interview
Sensory abilities: Minato

Intelligence: Tobirama 
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra Control: Minato
Chakra Capacity: Minato

Base Minato have the advantage over Tobirama w/Edo Tensei with the Toads.

Uzumaki seals or contract seal should be able to counter Edo Tensei too

Minato doesn't need Death God or SM to win.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Sensory abilities: There shouldn't be a difference



Tobirama's displayed much better sensing feats.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

The only thing Tobirama sensed is chakra, same did Minato. Don't know from where this Tobirama being a better sensor came from. 

The only differences in sensing is when it comes to SM, KCM, or RM. None of which Tobirama has.


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Inconclusive. 
*Speed:* Minato. 
*Reflexes:* Minato. 
*Durability:* Inconclusive. 
*Versatility:* Tie.

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tie.
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato.
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama.
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato.
*Kuchiyose:* Tie. 
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama.

*Intelligence:* Tie. 
*Knowledge:* Tobirama.
*Strategy & Tactics:* Minato.

*Chakra Control:* Tie.
*Chakra Capacity:* Minato.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

What Taijutsu has Tobirama ever shown?


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> The only thing Tobirama sensed is chakra, same did Minato. Don't know from where this Tobirama being a better sensor came from.
> 
> The only differences in sensing is when it comes to SM, KCM, or RM. None of which Tobirama had.



Discussed this in a different thread ages ago.



Itachі said:


> Nah, Tobirama knew for sure that there were 20 Shinobi.
> 
> 
> 
> Minato wasn't able to distinguish Chakra types in that instance. If a person made 20 Kage Bunshin they would all have the same Chakra, if there were 20 actual Ninja they would have different Chakra. Minato couldn't tell whether it was one person with clones or different people with different Chakra signatures. In other words, Minato could sense the presence of Chakra but he couldn't distinguish or differentiate between them.





Itachі said:


> Yeah, Tobirama has shown much more than Minato ever has in terms of sensing. Minato's sensory abilities are nothing special, Tobirama's more skilled in that area. As Dr. White said, Tobirama was able to sense that Orochimaru's body was made up of Hashirama's cells and that Karin was an Uzumaki. He was also the one to point out the large Chakra in the first place, which Minato only realised after the fact. Although, I guess you don't have to be gifted to sense Naruto's Chakra mixing with the Kyubi's.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> *Strength:* Inconclusive.
> *Speed:* Minato.
> *Reflexes:* Minato.
> *Durability:* Inconclusive.
> ...



How did Minato show better tactics than Tobirama when they both fought they jyuubi jin?


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Discussed this in a different thread ages ago.



Except Minato said they are clones. 
3

Not sure how does that prove anything in Tobirama's case. If we will go by trivia, Tobirama needed 2 fingers, and Minato uses 1. 



> Yeah, Tobirama has shown much more than Minato ever has in terms of sensing. Minato's sensory abilities are nothing special, Tobirama's more skilled in that area. As Dr. White said, Tobirama was able to sense that Orochimaru's body was made up of Hashirama's cells and that Karin was an Uzumaki. He was also the one to point out the large Chakra in the first place, which Minato only realised after the fact. Although, I guess you don't have to be gifted to sense Naruto's Chakra mixing with the Kyubi's.


Sensed Oro after Hashi told him?  
If anything, he was criticised for his dullness in the manga rather than being praised. 

Even the war thing, Tobirama did not sense anything except after Oro mentioned the War, so how is it ok for Tobirama
and not for Minato? lol
3

Heck, Minato's panel of reaction is BEFORE Tobirama.
who sensed in the next page
3

and lol at the rest. Minato sensed Narudo's chakra, while Tobirama sensed Madara's.
Minato was able to tell that Narudo was working with Kurama perfectly as well, and he was able
to tell when Madara pulled Kurama out of Narudo.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

@Hussain

Minato said 'maybe', he wasn't sure. Tobirama however, was sure. 

Erm, just because Hashirama told him doesn't take away from the fact that he could actually sense that Orochimaru consisted of Hashirama's cells.

Tobirama has shown to be a much more refined sensor compared to Minato.

Lol @ Minato sensing the Kyubi's Chakra, you forget that Tobirama pointed it out in the first place. Plus Minato would be accustomed to Nardo's Chakra (and the Kyubi's) since he fucking lived inside of him for 16 years..


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## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> How did Minato show better tactics than Tobirama when they both fought they jyuubi jin?



Minato figured out ways around Kamui & Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls, which are some of the more difficult jutsu to counter. Did Tobirama even have any stand-out  strategy or tactical feats? I thought him more "wise & knowledgeable" than "strategic mastermind."


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## Dr. White (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Minato figured out ways around Kamui & Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls, which are some of the more difficult jutsu to counter. Did Tobirama even have any stand-out  strategy or tactical feats? I thought him more "wise & knowledgeable" than "strategic mastermind."



He and Minato both commodore'd the Revoling Door jutsu, he like Naruto figured out the senjutsu effect on Obito and immediately set it up with Naruto, used his clone to counter Juubito, and was directly compared to Shikamaru in his role with Hashirama.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

*Tobirama:* Sensing Hashirama's fucking _cells_ in Orochimaru and able to distinguish different Chakra types (as shown with his sensing of Kinkaku Unit & Karin's Uzumaki heritage) as well as being able to sense the location of Chakra

*Minato:* Sensing Naruto's Chakra mixing with the Kyubi's and sensing when Kyubi was pulled out of Naruto

I think that there's a clear winner here, Hussain. Don't know why I even included that category tbh.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> @Hussain
> 
> Minato said 'maybe', he wasn't sure. Tobirama however, was sure.


He wouldn't have said so if he did not believe it's a possibility. Having the same chakra is not strange
as Mu pointed out between Gaara and his dad. 



> Erm, just because Hashirama told him doesn't take away from the fact that he could actually sense that Orochimaru consisted of Hashirama's cells.


Which is irrelevant. You were saying Tobirama "sensed" first so he is better when he is not when regarding the war.
likewise here. If Tobirama sensed his bro's chakra that does not prove anything special. Like do you think Kishi needs to put Minato and say "Oh, yes, I sensed it as well! " and then when Karin met them that she also
needs to sense Oro to prove that she is a good sensor?  no. It's not like sensing Hashirama's chakra cells was treated as something extraordinary. Hell, ORO who is NOT a sensor sensed Zetsu

3

Are you going to tell me that he is a good sensor because he sensed them even tho he admitted that he is not a sensor? You need to prove first that sensing Hashirama's cells is something especial and THEN take it as a proof
not the other way around pal. 



> Tobirama has shown to be a much more refined sensor compared to Minato.


Says who? 

Tobirama sensed 20 fodders with 2 fingers? Minato sensed 20 fodders
Tobirama sensed Madara's chakra? Minato sensed Narudo's chakra
Tobirama sensed Narudo's chakra? Minato sensed Madara's chakra
3

Tobirama sensed Oro's chakra? Minato sensed Obito's


Tobirama being better sensor is as baseless as it can possibly get.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain, you're missing the point.

Tobirama was completely sure that there were 20 people, Minato wasn't. That demonstrates a clear difference between them. Or do you think that the Shinobi that Minato sensed went on Father & Son outings? 

Thing is that Tobirama was able to sense on a cellular basis, he noticed Hashirama's cells. That isn't about speed, it's about Tobirama having the ability to actually sense Hashirama's cells in Orochimaru.

Minato still has nothing to top Tobirama's sensing. Give me a feat that exceeds Tobirama's sensing of Karin's Uzumaki heritage or Tobirama's ability to locate Chakra, I'm game.


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> When he tagged Juubito while Base Minato could only manage a flick of the wrist against Ay.



I'm sure Minato could also tag A by letting him run into him and get half his body blown off.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> *Tobirama:** Sensing Hashirama's fucking cells *in Orochimaru



Fascinating isn't it? 


So good that a none sensor can pull it off...


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## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Minato figured out ways around Kamui & Madara's Truth-Seeking Balls, which are some of the more difficult jutsu to counter. Did Tobirama even have any stand-out  strategy or tactical feats? I thought him more "wise & knowledgeable" than "strategic mastermind."



That is not telling. Tobirama was not there at that point. In order to compare them, we have to judge their tactical genius when they both faced the same opponent. 

Tobirama was the one who came up with a strategy to hit the jyuubi jin by using hiraishin. Minato did not think of it. Tobirama is the one who came up with the strategy of using hiraishin plus sage mode while Minato did not even notice. 

When they faced Obito, the author left no doubt that Tobirama was the superior one of the two in terms of intelligence, tactical analysis and knowledge


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

@Hussain

Orochimaru was talking about Naruto in that first image, lol. Misleading, much?

Tobirama was actually able to tell that Orochimaru's body wasn't completely made up of Hashirama's cells. That shows us that he's not just your average sensor, he's a cut above. It shows us that he can actually distinguish and differentiate instead of just sensing prescence. It's not like Tobirama said "I sense Hashirama's cells inside of Orochimaru".


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> Orochimaru was talking about Naruto in that first image, lol. Misleading, much?


I think it's pretty obvious I put that page to say that Oro is not sensor. 



> Tobirama was actually able to tell that Orochimaru's body wasn't completely made up of Hashirama's cells. That shows us that he's not just your average sensor, he's a cut above. It shows us that he can actually distinguish and differentiate instead of just sensing prescence. It's not like Tobirama said "I sense Hashirama's cells inside of Orochimaru".


Again, you have to PROVE that sensing Hashirama's cells IS especial, but you haven't you just made it special
based on NOTHING. 

Let me make it more clearer if it is not clear enough for you.

1- When Narudo learned KCM, Kisame said that sensing emotion IS especial because no sensor can do so.
2- When Narudo learned RM, Madara said sensing Limbo IS especial because no sensor can do so normally.
3- When Narudo used SM to sense the Juubi Kurama said that IS something especial that normally can't be done.

From where you came up with sensing Hashirama's cells is especial exactly? Who said that? 

It's like saying, Minato sensed X Oh. My. God!!! That's so fucking awesome, we haven't seen another one
sensing X person so it MUST be something that NONE other than him can do!

and so on with Person Y and person Z...etc etc 

YOU people made things up that sensing Hashirama's cell is especial when it was NEVER even hinted at! 
like who said it's impossible to be sensed or detected except for extraordinary sensors? 


> he can actually distinguish and differentiate instead of just sensing prescence.


What different does that make exactly?


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> I'm sure Minato could also tag A by letting him run into him and get half his body blown off.



Fact of the matter is, Tobirama can react physically to Juubito's Shunshin while Minato can only offer a lesser physical reaction against a much slower person. Put Juubito in Ay's place and Minato gets ripped apart with no reaction considering Ay almost hit him. Only way you can logically argue, in an unbiased manner, that Minato>Tobirama in reflexes is if you are willing to argue that Juubito is equal or inferior to Ay in speed.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I think it's pretty obvious I put that page to say that Oro is not sensor.



Oh right, sorry. 




> Again, you have to PROVE that sensing Hashirama's cells IS special, but you haven't you just made it special
> based on NOTHING.
> 
> Let me make it more clearer if it is not clear enough for you.
> ...



Sensing Hashirama's cells is nothing special, but Tobirama knew the proportions of Hashirama's cells in Orochimaru's body. He didn't just sense Hashirama's cells, he was able to tell how much of it there was in Orochimaru.

Even if Tobirama didn't have this feat, tell me what Minato has done in terms of sensing that tops Tobirama being able to locate Chakra and sense Karin's Uzumaki heritage.


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## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Fact of the matter is, Tobirama can react physically to Juubito's Shunshin while Minato can only offer a lesser physical reaction against a much slower person. Put Juubito in Ay's place and Minato gets ripped apart with no reaction considering Ay almost hit him. Only way you can logically argue, in an unbiased manner, that Minato>Tobirama in reflexes is if you are willing to argue that Juubito is equal or inferior to Ay in speed.



A was nowhere near almost hitting Minato. Minato purposely let him get so close so he could flick his kunai up and leave A in a vulnerable position for his counterattack.


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> A was nowhere near almost hitting Minato. Minato purposely let him get so close so he could flick his kunai up and leave A in a vulnerable position for his counterattack.



Minato was visibly surprised that Ei's fist was so close to his face though...


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> A was nowhere near almost hitting Minato.* Minato purposely let him get so close so he could flick his kunai up and leave* A in a vulnerable position for his counterattack.



Hey. Let's not make excuses. There is no merit in Minato letting Ay almost hit his head before he decides to flick his Kunai upwards. Minato flicking his Kunai before Ay got that close wouldn't matter because Ay would still eventually reach that position and the Kunai would still be in spot.

And like Itachi said, Minato was visibly surprised.


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> *Sensing Hashirama's cells is nothing special*, but Tobirama knew the proportions of Hashirama's cells in Orochimaru's body. He didn't just sense Hashirama's cells, he was able to tell how much of it there was in Orochimaru.
> 
> Even if Tobirama didn't have this feat, tell me what Minato has done in terms of sensing that tops Tobirama being able to locate Chakra and sense Karin's Uzumaki heritage.



@Bold
Good, and since your base is not stable, your entire building is not either. 



> he was able to tell how much of it there was in Orochimaru.


Which tells us nothing. Just like when Ao saw the different  chakra in Danzo and knew it was Shisui's
just like when Hinata saw the different in chakra with Kabuto when he first appeared with Oro's cells.



> Even if Tobirama didn't have this feat, tell me what Minato has done in terms of sensing that tops Tobirama being able to locate Chakra and sense Karin's Uzumaki heritage.


Their base sensing is the same. If people just keep their made up fanon aside, there is nothing different between them. 

As I said, it's pretty stupid to make those statement when we have no evidence of them being extraordinary.

and even dumber to expect the author to make all sensors (for example) to say something about something that
was already said in front of everyone. 

It's like saying

haha, and then say lol

One of which is not necessary with the other one already being there. It's as simple as that really...


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## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

and here is the page from Rai


No "Maybe"


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## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> @Bold
> Good, and sense your base is not stable, your entire building is not either.



No, I never tried to say that sensing Hashirama's presence was special. I tried to say that Tobirama's ability to draw up proportions and sense on a cellular basis was special.



> Which tells us nothing. Just like when Ao saw the different  chakra in Danzo and knew it was Shisui's
> just like when Hinata saw the different in chakra with Kabuto when he first appeared with Oro's cells.



With magical fucking eyes that can actually see Chakra 



> Their base sensing is the same. If people just keep their made up fanon aside, there is nothing different between them.
> 
> As I said, it's pretty stupid to make those statement when we have no evidence of them being extraordinary.
> 
> ...



All I'm saying is that Tobirama _clearly_ has better sensing feats than Minato. There's no evidence to suggest that all sensors can sense the same things. Every Shinobi can sense something to an extent. Also, going back to my first point, remember how Tobirama was sure that there were 20 Shinobi and not Bunshin users whereas Minato wasn't? 

Edit: 'Believe' doesn't make much of a difference, he still wasn't completely sure like Tobirama lmao.

*Even* if you took away that feat Tobirama still comes out on top. Again, show me any of Minato's feats that even rival Tobirama's.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama was the one who came up with a strategy to hit the jyuubi jin by using hiraishin.



Are you talking about Goshun Mawashi? That seemed like a team effort to me. Tobirama didn't tell Minato to go jump in front of Naruto & Sasuke and prepare to swap places. Tobirama was all like "brah let's use this" and Minato immediately understood his role. 



Senjuclan said:


> Tobirama is the one who came up with the strategy of using hiraishin plus sage mode while Minato did not even notice.



Now that isn't a very fair comparison. Minato and Obito were having a moment. I don't blame him for missing that detail in such a state of mind. I mean, even Naruto noticed. 

Though that's more observation that tactics. We were talking tactics.


----------



## Complete_Ownage (Jan 19, 2016)

Why are you guys even arguing with the biggest Minato tard on this forum 

If you can not distinguish that Tobirama is far more intelligent, tactical, and a superior sensor(by far) then log off and reread those chapters again


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> No, I never tried to say that sensing Hashirama's presence was special. I tried to say that Tobirama's ability to draw up proportions and sense on a cellular basis was special.



Well, it is not. He is sensing the chakra, and Hashirama's chakra is different than Oro's
and Tobirama knows his brother chakra signature. It's as simple as that. 



> With magical fucking eyes that can actually see Chakra


And what is chakra sensing all about? Pfff
Here let me help you
moves well
moves well



> All I'm saying is that Tobirama clearly has better sensing feats than Minato.


fanon


> There's no evidence to suggest that all sensors can sense the same things. Every Shinobi can sense something to an extend.


Not all of them the same. SM, KCM, and RM make a different. 



> Edit: 'Believe' doesn't make much of a difference, he still wasn't completely sure like Tobirama lmao.


That's just dumb. 
you are a Muslim, when you say I am a "believer" you mean that you doubt in God?
makes you wonder why He is referring to people with "Believers"


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Dude, you're missing the point. You seem to think that all sensing is the same, it's clearly not. Unless you think that Ino is as good a sensor as Karin or Mu. That's like saying every Genjutsu user has the same capabilities, it's clearly not true. Kakashi could sense the Kyubi's Chakra, do you think he's as good a sensor as Tobirama?


----------



## Rai (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Tobirama's displayed much better sensing feats.



1 finger > 2 finger

Minato sensed first > then Tobirama

Tobirama reaction to Juubito: What is this I feel?!

Minato reaction to Juubidara: I sense sage power...and even stronger than what Obito possesed.

Minato sensing feats > Tobirama's.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

ℜai said:


> 1 finger > 2 finger
> 
> Minato sensed first > then Tobirama
> 
> ...



Read through the last two pages my friend. :ignoramus


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

I told you sensing is not  the same, didn't I? 
I have already told you several times 

1- When it's stated to be special feat, then it is. When it is not stated to be so, then it is not.
You are just  nitpicking. Once you say "he said maybe" others you said "he said I believe" 
and God knows what next.  like do you want him to say the exact same words, word by word or
it is not?  

and I have already compared the 2 sensing other shit, and they pretty much did the same goddamn times. 
Again:

A: Tobirama sensed 20 fodders
A: Minato sensed 20 fodders

B: Tobirama sensed Edo Madara
B: Minato sensed JJ Madara (and compared it to Obito's which means he also sensed his)

C: Tobirama sensed BM Narudo when the Tree got him
C: Minato sensed BM Narudo when Oro mentined the War

D: Tobirama sensed his brother's cells/chakra
D: Minato sensed Obito coming behind him

E: Tobirama sensed Karin
E: Minato sensed Narudo when Kurama got pulled out.

anything else is fanon. It can't get any more obvious than that. 

If anything Minato is better because he has other means of sensing (SM/KCM) where Tobirama has none.


----------



## Rai (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Read through the last two pages my friend. :ignoramus



Irrelevant.:ignoramus

Minato and Tobirama's reaction to Juubi jin sealed this shit.:ignoramus

Minato has superior feats.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Explain this then, why can Karin sense without moulding Chakra while Tobirama can't? It doesn't explicitly say that she wasn't moulding Chakra but there's no reason for her to be moulding Chakra in that situation. Clearly not all sensors excel in the same areas.


----------



## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Hey. Let's not make excuses. There is no merit in Minato letting Ay almost hit his head before he decides to flick his Kunai upwards. Minato flicking his Kunai before Ay got that close wouldn't matter because Ay would still eventually reach that position and the Kunai would still be in spot.


That's the thing, it looked like A almost hit Minato but that's only because Minato *let him* get that close. If Minato acted earlier A and Bee would both have more time to react. The way Minato did it left A the most vulnerable. It's pretty simple really.



> And like Itachi said, Minato was visibly surprised.


He's a good actor


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

How do you know if she was keeping her guard up or not? 

Not as if that in your favour anyway as
1- It proves that Tobirama is not as good as you think he is (Karin did not state that Oro has Hashi's cells either based on your logic) 

2- Being passive sensor or not does not really prove that the sensing itself is better or worst.

It's like saying Kakashi's sharingan is better than any sharingan because it's always active.


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Are you talking about Goshun Mawashi? That seemed like a team effort to me. Tobirama didn't tell Minato to go jump in front of Naruto & Sasuke and prepare to swap places. Tobirama was all like "brah let's use this" and Minato immediately understood his role.



There was no team effort. Tobirama told Minato which jutsu they should use and why. No team effort. Minato understood his role because he was told which jutsu to use and why 




Rocky said:


> Now that isn't a very fair comparison. Minato and Obito were having a moment. I don't blame him for missing that detail in such a state of mind. I mean, even Naruto noticed.
> 
> Though that's more observation that tactics. We were talking tactics.



Minato having a moment is no excuse. However, once Tobirama found out about the weakness of the jyuubi jin, he also immediately noticed that Naruto had senjutsu and devised a plan to use his hiraishin in conjunction with Naruto to hit Obito. That is a tactical move.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> That's the thing, it looked like A almost hit Minato but that's only because Minato *let him* get that close. If Minato acted earlier A and Bee would both have more time to react. The way Minato did it left A the most vulnerable. It's pretty simple really.
> 
> 
> He's a good actor



I'll wait for you to back anything you are saying with proof. Because Minato's expression is all the proof I need to call bullshit on your "explanation". And like I said, Minato reacting earlier is irrelevant, because Ay would've charged right to where Minato was regardless of him throwing the Kunai or not. Mentioning B is irrelevant because B's reaction was to Minato's attack *after* the teleportation. Not before.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How do you know if she was keeping her guard up or not?
> 
> Not as if that in your favour anyway as
> 1- It proves that Tobirama is not as good as you think he is (Karin did not state that Oro has Hashi's cells either based on your logic)
> ...



There was no reason for her to mould Chakra, she wasn't in battle nor was she expecting people to follow her...

Erm, I never said that Tobirama was the best sensor in all areas. Just that he's got better showings than Minato, which is true.

What? So a sensor who can sense without kneading Chakra is the same as a sensor who can only sense while kneading Chakra? That comparison is completely retarded. If your comparison was applied correctly then Karin would be Kakashi using Sharingan without Sharingan itself being active.

I think this has been going long enough though, you're being really stubborn here mate.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> It doesn't explicitly say that she wasn't moulding Chakra but there's no reason for her to be moulding Chakra in that situation. Clearly not all sensors excel in the same areas.



How is there no reason? She know Sasuke is a criminal and wanted, and he is exhausted from Deidara's battle (if I remember correctly) and can barely move. There is no better time to have your guard up than when you are as a possible danger at any time. 




> Erm, I never said that Tobirama was the best sensor in all areas. Just that he's got better showings than Minato, which is true.


It's not true based on the manga obviously. As I have already proven above. 


> What? So a sensor who can sense without kneading Chakra is the same as a sensor who can sense while kneading Chakra? That comparison is completely retarded. If your comparison was applied correctly then Karin would be Kakashi using Sharingan without Sharingan itself being active.



That's cool and all, except we are talking about the sensing ITSELF here rather than when it's being used or not.



> Kakashi using Sharingan without Sharingan itself being active.


No, it shouldn't be like this. Because we are debating is sensing 2 chakra (Hashirama's cells) is something especial? The answer is NO. 

likewise, with Kakashi's sharingan it does like what the other does (copy Ninjutsu, see through Genjutsu...etc) which all the sharingans do.
However, one is always active and the others are not. Does that make Kakashi's sharingan better? No, it does not because the main abilities
are exactly the same.

Likewise, if we say Karin's sensing is always active (like Kakashi's) and Tobirama is not (like the rest of the uchiha)
however they can sense whatever around them (like Kakashi and the uchiha's sharingans do) then they are the same thing.

What you do however is
Kakashi's sharingan copied 1000 Jutsu 
We haven't seen madara does the same

Therefore, Madara can't and Kakashi is better!


----------



## Senjuclan (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Explain this then, why can Karin sense without moulding Chakra while Tobirama can't? It doesn't explicitly say that she wasn't moulding Chakra but there's no reason for her to be moulding Chakra in that situation. Clearly not all sensors excel in the same areas.



How do you know whether or not she was not molding chakra?


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How is there no reason? She know Sasuke is a criminal and wanted, and he is exhausted from Deidara's battle (if I remember correctly) and can barely move. There is no better time to have your guard up than when you are as a possible danger at any time.



Well, if you think that Karin is going to mould Chakra 24/7 in case of an attack then sure. Dude, they were literally fucking walking around. Sasuke was not using secret passageways, he was running through areas without a care lmao.

Anyway, I'm done man.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

> Anyway, I'm done man.


Me 2.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength:  Tobirama
Raw Speed: Minato
Shunshin Speed:Minato
Reflexes: Minato
Durability: Tobirama
Versatility: Minato

Offensive Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: Tobirama
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Minato
Sensory abilities: Tobirama

Intelligence: Draw
Knowledge: Minato
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra Control: Minato
Chakra Capacity: Draw


----------



## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> I'll wait for you to back anything you are saying with proof. Because Minato's expression is all the proof I need to call bullshit on your "explanation". And like I said, Minato reacting earlier is irrelevant, because Ay would've charged right to where Minato was regardless of him throwing the Kunai or not.


Minato's counterattack is the proof. If A was really that close to hitting Minato then how the hell did Minato still have time to flick the kunai up? Minato was in control the whole time.



> Mentioning B is irrelevant because B's reaction was to Minato's attack *after* the teleportation. Not before.


Exactly. So acting earlier was gonna make Bee act earlier aswell.


----------



## Itachi san88 (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: Tobirama
Raw Speed: Tie
Shunshin Speed: Minato. 
Reflexes: Tobirama. 
Durability: Tie
Versatility: Tobirama

Offensive Ninjutsu: Tobirama
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: Tie
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama
Sensory abilities: Tie

Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra Control: Tie
Chakra Capacity: Tobirama


----------



## Trojan (Jan 19, 2016)

Anyways, got involved in this sensor stuff too much, so here is the whole thing. 
*
Strength: Minato.
*
Based on feats Minato showed the ability to cut B's tail with 1 strike. Tobirama has not
shown and "Strength" feats as far as I remember. So, there is really nothing going on for him at all. 


> *Raw Speed: Minato
> Shunshin Speed: Minato*



Pretty obvious.



> *Reflexes: Minato*


The guy reacted to 8th Gate 5th step Gai, V2 A, Kamui and so on. Comparing Tobirama getting destroyed by retard-form Obito to Minato against Full power Obito is pretty retarded and can't be taken seriously. It's as retarded
as comparing KCM Narudo to BM Narudo. 



> Durability: Minato (SM).


We haven't seen anything from Tobirama whatsoever to say he is more durable. And we haven't seen anything
from base Minato either so saying anyone of them is more durable than the other is baseless. However, SM makes
a difference here as we have seen Madara (with Hashirama's power) was cut in half by Lee. However, Minato was
able to take JJ SM Madara's kick without getting cut in half. That's the only different between the 2 as far as canon goes. 



> Versatility: Minato


Minato:
Chakra Transfer Technique
Combined Summoning Technique (Manga only)
Contract Seal
Dead Demon Consuming Seal
Eight Trigrams Sealing Style
Flying Thunder Formation Technique
Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
Flying Thunder God Technique
Flying Thunder God — Second Step
Flying Thunder God: Guiding Thunder
Four Red Yang Formation
Four Symbols Seal
Negative Emotions Sensing
Nine-Tails Chakra Mode
Rasengan
Sage Mode
Sensing Technique
Shadow Clone Technique
Spiralling Flash Super Round Dance Howl Style Three
Summoning Technique (Shinigami, Toad)
Summoning: Food Cart Destroyer Technique
Tailed Beast Ball
Tailed Beast Chakra Arms
Tailed Beast Transfer Technique

Tobirama
Combined Summoning Technique (Manga only)
Flying Thunder God Mutually Instantaneous Revolving Technique
Flying Thunder God Slash
Flying Thunder God Technique
Four Red Yang Formation
Heavenly Weeping
Mutually Multiplying Explosive Tags
Sensing Technique
Shadow Clone Technique
Summoning: Impure World Reincarnation
Water Release: Water Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Dragon Bullet Technique
Water Release: Water Formation Wall
Water Release: Water Severing Wave

As far as manga goes, Minato has shown more.



> Offensive Ninjutsu: Tobirama


His explosion tags are stronger than any offensive jutsu Minato showed. 



> Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato


His S/T barrier is arguably one of the best defensive jutsu in the manga. 



> Taijutsu:



No one has shown much of this. To say one is better than the other is  rubbish. 



> Fuinjutsu: Minato





> Kuchiyose: Minato


Minato can summon the frogs with no preparation. Those frogs have shown Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, Genjutsu and SM
meanwhile, Tobirama has featless ET. We know for a fact that he can only summon severely weakened ET. And it needs preparation to be used. I don't buy that is better than the frogs that we know that they are powerful enough
to even smash SM Narudo. 



> Sensory abilities: Minato


Their sensing ability is equal in base. However, the fact that Minato has other means (SM) makes him better than
Tobirama. 



> Intelligence: Tie


I guess they are around the same. Using Minato when he is fighting his student is rubbish. 



> Knowledge: Tobirama


as it seems since he is also twice as old as Minato at least... 



> Tactics: Minato


we really haven't seen much from Tobirama as far as tactics go. His best hype comes from his invenstions rather
than tactics. 




> Chakra Control: Minato


Tobirama has no feats as far as I remember, Minato does. 



> Chakra Capacity: Minato


Since he is a SM user.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Minato's counterattack is the proof. If A was really that close to hitting Minato then how the hell did Minato still have time to flick the kunai up? Minato was in control the whole time.
> 
> 
> Exactly. So acting earlier was gonna make Bee act earlier aswell.



All it means is that Minato is that fast. Has nothing to do with him waiting so why in the world are you mentioning it?

 B's reaction comes AFTER the attack. Minato's reaction (the teleportation part) will always be the same regardless of when he tosses the Kunai as Ay needs to be in position. Thus B will not react sooner. So you don't make sense.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama
*Raw Speed:* Tobirama
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Tobirama
*Durability:* Inconclusive
*Versatility:* Tobirama 

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

*Chakra Control:* Tobirama
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama

 Tobirama is superior in almost every single way.


----------



## ImSerious (Jan 19, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> All it means is that Minato is that fast. Has nothing to do with him waiting so why in the world are you mentioning it?


So Minato can react to A's full speed being an inch away from his face and then still perform a physical action before A can cover said inch, yet he can't react to A covering the first 10m?



> B's reaction comes AFTER the attack. Minato's reaction (the teleportation part) will always be the same regardless of when he tosses the Kunai as Ay needs to be in position. Thus B will not react sooner. So you don't make sense.


 If Minato throws the kunai earlier then Bee will act when he sees it being thrown. But the way Minato did it left his opponents with as little time to react as possible.


----------



## 12771a (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: tie
speed: tie
Reflexes: Tobirama
Durability: Tobirama cause he is a Senju
Versatility: Minato

Offensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: tie
Funinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama, if edo tensei counts otherwise Minato
Sensory: Tie

Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 19, 2016)

Strength: Tobirama
speed: Minato
Reflexes: Minato
Durability: Tobirama 
Versatility: Minato

Offensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: tie
Funinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama, if edo tensei counts otherwise Minato
Sensory: Tie

Intelligence: Minato
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Minato


----------



## Saru (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama
*Raw Speed:* Tie
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato
*Reflexes:* Tobirama
*Durability:* Tie
*Versatility*: Minato

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama
*Fuuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama
*Sensory ability:* Tobirama

*Intelligence: *Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 19, 2016)

Tobirama was a better sensor. Minato didn't even recognize the chakra of his own student.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 19, 2016)

ThatGreekLady said:


> Tobirama was a better sensor. Minato didn't even recognize the chakra of his own student.



Well, Obito was half Zetsu by that point but yeah, I don't think Tobirama would have failed to realise.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, Obito was half Zetsu by that point but yeah, I don't think Tobirama would have failed to realise.



 Well, Karin could sense both Naruto and Kurama's Chakra inside of him, so the fact that Minato couldn't suggests that he's not a skilled sensor.


----------



## Kyu (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Tobirama - assuming all senju are stronger than clanless shinobi

*Raw Speed:* Minato

*Shunshin Speed:* Minato - stems from being inherently faster

*Reflexes:* Minato - throwing a kunai up in the air while A was an inch away from caving his face in + warping in and out on a Gudōdama before the nigh instant disintegration process even began > tagging a brain-dead jinchuuriki _after_ he eviscerates you

*Durability:*  Tobirama - assuming senju are more durable than normal ninja

*Versatility:* Going off the actual definition of versatility and not just counting the number of jutsu they have - Relatively even 

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama

*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato

*Taijutsu:* No difference

*Fuinjutsu:* Minato

*Kuchiyose:* Minato (Shinigami and Toads)

*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama (by a mile)

*Knowledge:* Tobirama (lived over twice as long)

*Intelligence:* In spoiler below

*Tactics:* Even - 
*Spoiler*: _From a previous thread_ 





> Minato's analytical skills are among the best in the series. Being insulted for goofiness means jack shit when his feats contradict those statements, as Tobirama retracted his assertion on Naruto - who happens to pale in comparison to his father in terms of anything regarding intellect. As usual, folks are placing excessive emphasis on his shortcomings throughout the war and completely disregarding his accomplishments.
> 
> Armless, he successfully took charge and led a team comprised of highly accomplished shinobi - Kakashi & Gaara - to remove Madara's Truth-Seekers from the equation. Speaking of, his brief analysis on the orbs makes it quite apparent he wasn't defeated without obtaining vital data on the enemy.[1] [2]
> 
> The man is _easily_ comparable to the likes of Kakashi, Tobirama, and Itachi(Tobirama likely being the most knowledgeable overall of those listed). Certainly not inferior by any quantifiable margin.







*Chakra Control:* Minato - takes chakra and places it into people, chakra transfer 

*Chakra Capacity:* 


Either Minato edges him out or they're roughly working with a similar amount. Senju should have higher reserves than average, but Yondaime isn't average.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2016)

@Kyu

 Alive Minato could barely warp away Kurama. Tobirama was implied to have the Chakra Capacity to warp away 1 Juubidama which dwarfs Kurama.

 Tobirama's Chakra Capacity is greater than Alive Minato's.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 19, 2016)

Minato was running low after teleporting Kurama, catching tailed beast ball, summoning Gamabunta, using Hiraishin repeatedly, maintaining Kushina's seal while she was in labor, and doing whatever else he did that day (since it was night). He also had enough juice left after teleporting Kurama to summon the key frog thing & seal the fox itself. No reason Minato couldn't be capable of teleporting one of Obito's bombs if he's fresh.


----------



## Rai (Jan 19, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Kyu
> 
> Alive Minato could barely warp away Kurama. Tobirama was implied to have the Chakra Capacity to warp away 1 Juubidama which dwarfs Kurama.
> 
> Tobirama's Chakra Capacity is greater than Alive Minato's.



Full Kurama is far bigger than Bunta who's around the same size as 1-Tails and
8-Tails. .

Minato teleported a super-charged Bijuudama from Full Kurama and the FOX himsel, Summoned Gamabunta...etc

Minato has shown superior feats in chakra capacity.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength*: Tie
*Raw Speed*: Minato
*Shunshin Speed*: Minato (Tobirama admitted this, it's difficult to question it)
*Reflexes*: Tie (Minato reflexed to Truthseekers (2x) & V2 Ei, Tobirama reflexed to Jubito)
*Durability*: Tie
*Versatility*: Minato (SM, Sealing, FTG, Frogs, Barriers, Rasengan)
*Offensive Ninjutsu*: Minato (Rasengan, DRS, Frogs, 4 Symbols, 8 Trigrams, FCD)
*Defensive Ninjutsu*: Minato (Guiding Thunder)
*Taijutsu*: Tie
*Fuinjutsu*: Minato
*Kuchiyose*: Minato (Frogs)
*Sensory abilities*: Tie (both sensors, both have finger vibration sensing)

*Intelligence*: Tobirama
*Knowledge*: Minato (had some knowledge on Tobirama's age, Tobirama has little to no knowledge on his age)
*Tactics*: Tie

*Chakra Control*: Minato
*Chakra Capacity*: Tobirama


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 19, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Minato was running low after teleporting Kurama, catching tailed beast ball, summoning Gamabunta, using Hiraishin repeatedly, maintaining Kushina's seal while she was in labor, and doing whatever else he did that day (since it was night). He also had enough juice left after teleporting Kurama to summon the key frog thing & seal the fox itself. No reason Minato couldn't be capable of teleporting one of Obito's bombs if he's fresh.



 Using Hiraishin to warp himself a few times pales in comparison to warping away a significantly larger being that easily dwarfed the entire village.

 Summoning Gamabunta hardly uses up that much chakra. Hebi Sasuke summoned Manda while being extremely low on chakra, so obviously it requires minimal chakra for someone with exceptional chakra control.

 We have no idea how much chakra it takes to even maintain Kushina's seal, but considering Minato was relatively fresh against Obito and the fact that Minato managed to redo Naruto's seal after the majority of Kurama's Chakra was released despite only placing a minimal amount of chakra in Naruto suggests that it didn't take a good portion of his Chakra. Granted, that was 50% Kurama, but that would only mean it would requires 2x his chakra in order to redo the seal and doubling a minimal amount of chakra is likely going to result in a minimal amount of chakra consumed regardless.

 If you truly think that all of those things outside of warping away Kurama requires a significantly larger amount of chakra than it does to warp away Kurama, enough to amount to warping away an entire Juubidama that's possibly the size of Hashirma's Buddha, then I don't know what to tell you. We literally have Minato kneading Chakra for a good minute or so before he managed to warp away Kurama meaning that it consumed a lot of his chakra.


----------



## ARGUS (Jan 19, 2016)

*Strength:* Minato  
*Raw Speed:* Tobirama
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato 
*Reflexes:* Tobirama
*Durability:* Tie
*Versatility:* Tobirama [ET]

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Tie
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato
*Kuchiyose:* Tobirama 
*Sensory abilities:* Tobirama

*Intelligence:* Tobirama
*Knowledge:* Tobirama
*Tactics:* Tobirama

*Chakra Control:* Minato
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 19, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> So Minato can react to A's full speed being an inch away from his face and then still perform a physical action before A can cover said inch, yet he can't react to A covering the first 10m?



No, Minato can only react to Ay from 10m away after Ay is already in front of his face.



> If *Minato throws the kunai earlier then Bee will act when he sees it being thrown. *But the way Minato did it left his opponents with as little time to react as possible.



Lol B's only reaction is to save Ay from Minato's Kunai attack. If his goal was to react to the Kunai itself he would've attempted so in canon.

If you are going to keep holding on to this nonsense even though Minato's facial expression shows that it wasn't an easy reaction, you might as well just concede now.


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, Minato can only react to Ay from 10m away after Ay is already in front of his face.


Yet still make him look like a snail before A can cover the last inch. You're not making sense.



> Lol B's only reaction is to save Ay from Minato's Kunai attack. If his goal was to react to the Kunai itself he would've attempted so in canon.
> 
> If you are going to keep holding on to this nonsense even though Minato's facial expression shows that it wasn't an easy reaction, you might as well just concede now.


He did attempt it in canon, he saved A remember? They fought many times before, once Bee sees the kunai flying he knows what's gonna happen.
You know this thing called suspense? That's why Minato looked surprised.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Yet still make him look like a snail before A can cover the last inch. You're not making sense.
> 
> 
> *He did attempt it in canon, he saved A remember?* They fought many times before, once Bee sees the kunai flying he knows what's gonna happen.
> You know this thing called suspense? That's why Minato looked surprised.



Lol. If Minato's reaction *only comes after Ay has crossed 10m*, it doesn't make Ay look like a snail. It makes Minato look like a snail. 

He saved Ay* AFTER MINATO TELEPORTED TO ATTACK HIM.* What you say on what B would do is irrelevant as he has already shown what he'd do. Suspense is probably the weakest and biggest BS excuse I've seen from your posts in this entire argument. Why don't you stop grasping at straws and just admit that you are wrong? 


> a state or feeling of excited or anxious uncertainty about what may happen.



That is what suspense means. Minato knew Ay would charge him so please tell me where the suspense is coming from.


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol. If Minato's reaction *only comes after Ay has crossed 10m*, it doesn't make Ay look like a snail. It makes Minato look like a snail.


Exactly. Which is why your interpretation makes no sense. Minato let him get that close, A was the snail all along.



> He saved Ay* AFTER MINATO TELEPORTED TO ATTACK HIM.* What you say on what B would do is irrelevant as he has already shown what he'd do.


Yes but he started moving once he saw Minato flick the kunai and warp away. Obviously his tentacle is not gonna instantly reach A.



> Suspense is probably the weakest and biggest BS excuse I've seen from your posts in this entire argument. Why don't you stop grasping at straws and just admit that you are wrong?
> 
> 
> That is what suspense means. Minato knew Ay would charge him so please tell me where the suspense is coming from.


 Suspense as in us(the reader) thinking Minato is almost getting hit.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Exactly. Which is why your interpretation makes no sense. Minato let him get that close, A was the snail all along.
> 
> 
> Yes but he started moving *once he saw Minato flick the kunai and warp away.* Obviously his tentacle is not gonna instantly reach A.
> ...



What? Lol do you even know what you are talking about? That's exactly what happened and saying "lol it makes no sense" isn't a counter argument when you have failed to provide a reason for why it doesn't make sense.

What is this based on? Because all we see is B's tentacle moving AFTER Minato teleports, THEN we see it hit Ay out of the way.

 Stop. Minato's facial expression and the readers have nothing to do with anything nor does Kishimoto need to have Minato put on a surprised face to build suspense. And last but not least, it's 100% baseless.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2016)

Minato is confortably reacting to V2 Ei :


Looking at him with half eye :


It's not even debatable .


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato is confortably reacting to V2 Ei :
> 
> 
> Looking at him with half eye :
> ...



Oh look, it's this guy again. 

Read that scan again pal. Ay RAN towards Minato, then said he'd wait for him to teleport so he can use his super speed to smash his face in. Meaning he didn't use Shunshin, which was obvious.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2016)

Minato fought V2 Ei + V2 Bee many times without beeing touched even once=>Minato>V2 Ei+V2 Bee according to the manga and DB .


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato fought V2 Ei + V2 Bee many times without beeing touched even once=>Minato>V2 Ei+V2 Bee according to the manga and DB .



I don't care about your opinion about their power. I only care about what was shown, and Ay almost hit Minato there. Fact.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2016)

Well , it' s not my opinion but Kishimoto's opinion , if you don't care about it , then you don't care about manga and DB feats , and in feats :
-Ei and Bee are sweeting while Minato doesn't .
-Minato look at V2 Ei with half an eye and easily dodge him .
-Mianto's striking speed is higher than V2 Ei :


But apparently you don't care about that .


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well , it' s not my opinion but Kishimoto's opinion , if you don't care about it , then you don't care about manga and DB feats , and in feats :
> -Ei and Bee are sweeting while Minato doesn't .
> -Minato look at V2 Ei with half an eye and easily dodge him .
> -Mianto's striking speed is higher than V2 Ei :
> ...



-Irrelevant to what I said.
-Already explained.
-Irrelevant.

Ay can cross 10m almost hit Minato in the time it takes him to flick the Kunai.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 20, 2016)

Saying irrelevant about manga's feats => you are lacking arguments .


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> I have provided a reason already.
> 
> - You're saying Minato can't react to A when he's covering the first 10m.
> - Yet at the same time acknowledge that Minato was able to flick the kunai, warp away and warp back, and then strike with his kunai. He did all this before A could cover that last inch. A was literally frozen in time compared to Minato. He was a snail.



-Fact.
-Yes, he was able to flick a Kunai before Ay could hit him. If he was only able to do that after Ay had crossed 10m despite him knowing that Ay was coming, the one who looks like a snail is Minato. Quit saying "lol before the last inch" when THAT was the result of reacting to Ay from 10m. He didn't react from an inch away.



> When do you think Bee's tentacle started moving?



After Minato had warped as the Manga shows.




> It's based on what happened afterwards.



Still makes no sense. Minato being surprised=/=Minato being unable to dodge so there is no reason for the reader to be surprised.


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> -Fact.
> -Yes, he was able to flick a Kunai before Ay could hit him. If he was only able to do that after Ay had crossed 10m despite him knowing that Ay was coming, the one who looks like a snail is Minato. Quit saying "lol before the last inch" when THAT was the result of reacting to Ay from 10m. He didn't react from an inch away.


 You still haven't explained how Minato was able to do all that shit before A covered the last inch. After all, Minato's a snail compared to A, right?



> After Minato had warped as the Manga shows.


We see Bee's tentacle moving after Minato's already on A's back. Are you saying Bee's tentacle can cover 15m faster than Minato can make a striking motion?

You just keep making more and more sense. I'm almost convinced 



> Still makes no sense. Minato being surprised=/=Minato being unable to dodge so there is no reason for the reader to be surprised.


We don't know yet whether he will dodge or not.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ℜai said:


> Full Kurama is far bigger than Bunta who's around the same size as 1-Tails and
> 8-Tails. .
> 
> Minato teleported a super-charged Bijuudama from Full Kurama and the FOX himsel, Summoned Gamabunta...etc
> ...



Tobirama teleported both Naruto and Minato with their kyuubi avatars, that is a greater feat than teleporting a bujuudama. After Minato did all those things you mentioned, he was tired as hell. Tobirama did not even flinch


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

Minato teleported a Juubidama without flinching.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Minato teleported a Juubidama without flinching.



Yeah but that was a jinchiruki Minato. The seal that Naruto has is made to seep out chakra from time to time. So, edo tensei Minato had more chakra than alive Minato


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Yeah but that was a jinchiruki Minato. The seal that Naruto has is made to seep out chakra from time to time. So, edo tensei Minato had more chakra than alive Minato


What a terrible excuse. Minato wasn't even in KCM mode, and he has full control of Kurama's chakra.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> What a terrible excuse. Minato wasn't even in KCM mode, and he has full control of Kurama's chakra.



Naruto does not have to be in KCM to benefit from its chakra. The seal iself is designed to let the kyuubi chakra seep into Naruto's chakra flow


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

prove minato used kurama's chakra.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

Minato & Naruto have different seals.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> prove minato used kurama's chakra.



I don't need to prove anything. A jinchiruki benefits from the bijuu's chakra. Fact


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I don't need to prove anything. A jinchiruki benefits from the bijuu's chakra. Fact


when they use the bijuu's chakra.........so prove he used kurama's chakra.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> when they use the bijuu's chakra.........so prove he used kurama's chakra.



No ... Even when they are not using the bijuu's chakra. Gaara does not have a bijuu in him anymore. The databook specifically says that Naruto's seal is designed to let some of the kyuubi's chakra seep into Naruto

When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Demon Fox inside of Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Four Symbols Seals"**. At that time, he also left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, allowing the Demon Fox's chakra to merge with Naruto's chakra.


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

are you gonna answer my question or give me random information i didn't ask for?


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> are you gonna answer my question or give me random information i didn't ask for?



Are youseriously this dense? You asked me to prove that he was using the kyuubi's chakra. I presented you information that says that the kyuubi's jin has the kyuubi's chakra seeping in him at all times.


Now wait for it, wait for it, I will feed you the conclusion. When the kyuubi's chakra is seeping into your chakra, you are always using the kyuubi's chakra because it becomes part of your chakra flow. Capisce?


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> When the Yondaime Hokage sealed the Demon Fox inside of Naruto, the effect was made stronger by putting together two "Four Symbols Seals"**. At that time, he also left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, allowing the Demon Fox's chakra to merge with Naruto's chakra.


What are you talking about. Where does it say here that the kyuubi's chakra is constantly seeping into your chakra?


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> What are you talking about. Where does it say here that the kyuubi's chakra is constantly seeping into your chakra?



At that time, *he also left an opening at the space where the sealing formulas meet, allowing the Demon Fox's chakra to merge with Naruto's chakra*.


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## shade0180 (Jan 20, 2016)

Where is Minato's seal in that text?


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

shade0180 said:


> Where is Minato in that text?



Minato has the same seal as Naruto ... Heck, even Gaara still has residual bijuu chakra from the one tail


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## Itachі (Jan 20, 2016)

To be fair, that's not proof. It says that Minato let the Kyubi's Chakra mix with Naruto's, doesn't mean that he did the same to himself.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

Itachі said:


> To be fair, that's not proof. It says that Minato let the Kyubi's Chakra mix with Naruto's, doesn't mean that he did the same to himself.



Minato has the same seal ... same bijuu ... same KCM


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## Itachі (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Minato has the same seal ... same bijuu ... same KCM



It says that he 'left an opening' in Naruto's seal, implying that it's not standard. There's no reason he would do the same to himself, he wasn't planning on being resurrected and using the Kyubi's Chakra.


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## Bonly (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> Minato has the same seal ... same bijuu ... same KCM



Actually Minato doesn't have the same seal, Minato used a Eight Trigrams seal when he put half of Kurama inside of Naruto but when Minato sealed half of Kurama in himself he just used the Shiki Fūjin so they don't have the same seal


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

Itachі said:


> It says that he 'left an opening' in Naruto's seal, implying that it's not standard. There's no reason he would do the same to himself, he wasn't planning on being resurrected and using the Kyubi's Chakra.



No ... It only implies that he did so voluntarily ... nothing more, nothing less


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## Itachі (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> No ... It only implies that he did so voluntarily ... nothing more, nothing less



But it doesn't imply that he did the same to his own seal either....


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

so desperate to deny minato's feat


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> so desperate to deny minato's feat



So, I guess that means you have been unable to disprove my argument and now are reduced to pretending ... cool


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> So, I guess that means you have been unable to disprove my argument and now are reduced to pretending ... cool


you didn't even properly respond to my questions. all you've been doing is quote a random text about the sealing of the kyuubi and twisting around the words.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> you didn't even properly respond to my questions. all you've been doing is quote a random text about the sealing of the kyuubi and twisting around the words.



I will then conclude that you are just dense because you can't understand English text


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

concession accepted.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> concession accepted.



You just made my point. That was not a concession. It was a resignation to the facts ... You are indeed dense


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

shhh, it's over now


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> You still haven't explained how Minato was able to do all that shit before A covered the last inch. After all, Minato's a snail compared to A, right?


No, I have. If you can't comprehend the basic English language that's your problem, not mine. In the time Ay can cross 10m, Minato can only flick his Kunai. Quit with this "he reacted to ay when he was an inch away" bullshit when that only applies if Minato had only initiated his reaction the moment Ay reached his face. Minato saw Ay coming for him, but in the time it took Ay to cross all that distance all Minato could do was flick his Kunai above Ay's head.

Same reason why Sakura evaded the chakra arms that RSM Naruto said were fast. She saw it coming from far far far away but all she could do when it was right in front of her was jump a few meters. Even then she almost got caught. I cannot dumb this down any further. Either you counter, or you concede or I stop wasting my time arguing with you since you've made it clear that you don't care about Manga fact if it hurts your fav.



> We see Bee's tentacle moving after Minato's already on A's back. Are you saying Bee's tentacle can cover 15m faster than Minato can make a striking motion?
> 
> You just keep making more and more sense. I'm almost convinced



Minato had to build momentum to make a strike, and in that time frame B was able to intercept. That's fact. Shown in the Manga. What you think is right is something I don't care about.



> We don't know yet whether he will dodge or not.



And the surprised look on his face doesn't add to that, so I'll have to ask you to stop denying Manga fact just because this is your favorite character we are talking about. "Good actor" is probably the dumbest excuse you could possibly use.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Minato saw Ay coming for him, but in the time it took Ay to cross all that distance all Minato could do was flick his Kunai above Ay's head.



And, like, use Hiraishin.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> And, like, use Hiraishin.



Yeah, a mental reaction. Doesn't change the fact that if Minato tries to physically react to Ay from that range, he'd almost get hit, which is the point we are arguing about here.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

It's probably easier for him to block A than it is for him to activate Hiraishin.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> It's probably easier for him to block A than it is for him to activate Hiraishin.



No, because to use Hiraishin he only has to think. To block Ay he has to think and move.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 20, 2016)

Strength: Tobirama
Raw Speed: Minato
Shunshin Speed: Minato
Reflexes: Tie
Durability: Tobirama
Versatility: Tie

Offensive Ninjutsu: Tie
Defensive Ninjutsu: Minato
Taijutsu: Tobirama, I cant see minato being better at taijutsu than the guy who fought uchihas on the daily, and beat Izuna who comparable to Madara.
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Kuchiyose: Tobirama
Sensory abilities: Tobirama

Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: Tobirama

Chakra Control: Minato
Chakra Capacity: Tobirama


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

To block, his brain has to send the signal to his arms to block. To use Hiraishin, his brain has to send the signal to manipulate chakra so that he teleports.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> To block, his brain has to send the signal to his arms to block. To use Hiraishin, his brain has to send the signal to manipulate chakra so that he teleports.



And the only way the latter is going to take longer than the former is if he's amassing a large amount of chakra to warp a large object. Kakashi can warp Susanoo Arrow with Kamui yet he can't physically react to it. Danzo can't physically react to it either yet he was able to do so with Ninjutsu.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> And the only way the latter is going to take longer than the former is if he's amassing a large amount of chakra to warp a large object.



Prove it. Blocking is the most basic reflex. Hiraishin is an extremely difficult ninjutsu. It is possible that Minato has become so skilled with Hiraishin that he can use it quicker than he can block, but he wasn't only using Hiraishin against A anyway. He had to wait for him to get close so that he could flick that Kunai up above his shoulder. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Kakashi can warp Susanoo Arrow with Kamui yet he can't physically react to it. Danzo can't physically react to it either yet he was able to do so with Ninjutsu.



Kakashi could not _dodge_ the arrow. It is fast & gigantic. That doesn't mean he couldn't block the arrow. He'd just receive a giant hole in his chest if he decided to do that. Same with Danzō. He had no time for weaving seals, which is more complicated a reflex than simply blocking.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Prove it. Blocking is the most basic reflex. Hiraishin is an extremely difficult ninjutsu. It is possible that Minato has become so skilled with Hiraishin that he can use it quicker than he can block, but he wasn't only using Hiraishin against A anyway. He had to wait for him to get close so that he could flick that Kunai up above his shoulder.
> 
> 
> 
> Kakashi could not _dodge_ the arrow. It is fast & gigantic. That doesn't mean he couldn't block the arrow. He'd just receive a giant hole in his chest if he decided to do that. Same with Danzō. He had no time for weaving seals, which is more complicated a reflex than simply blocking.



Blocking is the most basic physical reflex. Hiraishin isn't a physical reflex and whatever chakra Minato has to manipulate before he jumps isn't noticeable enough to cause a build up, shown by the fact he only had to build up chakra once to teleport and that was when he was warping Kurama. So unless you are going to illustrate this build up you speak of you don't have a point.

Hiraishin being difficult to learn and master doesn't change the initiation process, especially when we are talking about somebody who mastered the technique. Lol


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> No, I have. If you can't comprehend the basic English language that's your problem, not mine. In the time Ay can cross 10m, Minato can only flick his Kunai. Quit with this "he reacted to ay when he was an inch away" bullshit when that only applies if Minato had only initiated his reaction the moment Ay reached his face. Minato saw Ay coming for him, but in the time it took Ay to cross all that distance all Minato could do was flick his Kunai above Ay's head.


good actor
What's that in his hand?



> Same reason why Sakura evaded the chakra arms that RSM Naruto said were fast. She saw it coming from far far far away but all she could do when it was right in front of her was jump a few meters. Even then she almost got caught. I cannot dumb this down any further. Either you counter, or you concede or I stop wasting my time arguing with you since you've made it clear that you don't care about Manga fact if it hurts your fav.


Bad comparison. Minato didn't just dodge at the last second, he initiated a full blown counter-attack, ending with him behind A's back about to drive a kunai through his spine. You're the one wasting my time with your weak ass arguments.



> Minato had to build momentum to make a strike, and in that time frame B was able to intercept. That's fact. Shown in the Manga. What you think is right is something I don't care about.


''Build momentum''? What is this 
Do you even want me to take you seriously anymore?



> And the surprised look on his face doesn't add to that, so I'll have to ask you to stop denying Manga fact just because this is your favorite character we are talking about. "Good actor" is probably the dumbest excuse you could possibly use.


What did you just say about Minato's acting skills?


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> good actor
> What's that in his hand?



An irrelevant question that doesn't prove your point or disprove mine. In the time it took Ay to cross 10m, Minato could only flick a Kunai yet you think he's superior to the guy who can perform a more complex action against someone much faster than Ay.  Are you people really this deluded?



> Bad comparison. Minato didn't just dodge at the last second, he initiated a full blown counter-attack, ending with him behind A's back about to drive a kunai through his spine. You're the one wasting my time with your weak ass arguments.



And the only thing that was a physical reaction to that attack is him flicking the Kunai. His counter attack beforehand is 100% irrelevant.




> ''Build momentum''? What is this
> Do you even want me to take you seriously anymore?



Kunai slashes to B's tentacle don't cause *craters* in the ground. If you would sit and read the Manga instead of making excuses like "Minato was acting" you'd realize that Minato had his free hand on top of the handle of his Kunai, to put more power behind it and get past Ay's armor, whether it would've worked is another question. (unlikely at best)



> What did you just say about Minato's acting skills?



Don't expect another reply unless you surprise me and post something logical. Lost enough of my brain cells reading your excuses. "llolololol im right cuz minato waz actin lolololol".  Amazing. Minato fans typically make nonsense excuses for their favorite so I can't really be surprised. 

-Ay crosses 10m, Minato's only reaction is a flick of his Kunai.
-Ay crosses 10m, Minato's face tells the entire story on how easily he reacted.
-Someone much faster than Ay charges Tobirama.
-Tobirama responds by tagging him.
-Minato fan thinks that Minato>Tobirama in reflexes.


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## Rocky (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Hiraishin isn't a physical reflex and whatever chakra Minato has to manipulate before he jumps isn't noticeable enough to cause a build up, shown by the fact he only had to build up chakra once to teleport and that was when he was warping Kurama.



The manipulation, or more commonly referred to as "control", of Chakra is different than building Chakra. Using Chakra to perform a task is not inherently faster than blocking. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Hiraishin being difficult to learn and master doesn't change the initiation process, especially when we are talking about somebody who mastered the technique. Lol



It being S-Rank is a sign of its difficulty to perform. Difficult actions are not typically faster than blocking, something Minato would have been working on even back in the academy. Since Minato has mastered Ftg, it's_ possible_ that he can use it even faster than he can throw up a basic guard, but that's only speculation.


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## ImSerious (Jan 20, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> An irrelevant question that doesn't prove your point or disprove mine.





KeyofMiracles said:


> Quit with this "he reacted to ay when he was an inch away" bullshit when that only applies if Minato had only initiated his reaction the moment Ay reached his face.


Don't go back on your words now.



> And the only thing that was a physical reaction to that attack is him flicking the Kunai. His counter attack beforehand is 100% irrelevant.


What about the kunai strike?



> Kunai slashes to B's tentacle don't cause *craters* in the ground. If you would sit and read the Manga instead of making excuses like "Minato was acting" you'd realize that Minato had his free hand on top of the handle of his Kunai, to put more power behind it and get past Ay's armor, whether it would've worked is another question. (unlikely at best)


Translation: Bee's tentacle can cover 15m faster than Minato can move his hand to strike.
I'm honestly starting to think you're trolling me....



> -Ay crosses 10m, Minato's only reaction is a flick of his Kunai, *Hiraishin away, Hiraishin back, grab the kunai, slash.*
> -Ay crosses 10m, Minato's facecounterattack tells the entire story on how easily he reacted.
> -Someone much faster than Ay charges Tobirama.
> -Tobirama responds by tagging himgetting speedblitzed.
> -*Logical person* thinks that Minato>Tobirama in reflexes.


fixed.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Jan 20, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The manipulation, or more commonly referred to as "control", of Chakra is different than building Chakra. *Using Chakra to perform a task is not inherently faster than blocking. *
> 
> 
> 
> It being S-Rank is a sign of its difficulty to perform. Difficult actions are not typically faster than blocking, something Minato would have been working on even back in the academy. Since Minato has mastered Ftg, it's_ possible_ that he can use it even faster than he can throw up a basic guard, but that's only speculation.



Chakra control's only factor in using jutsu is how much chakra they end up wasting or not and how easy it is for them to use it. Chakra molding/building is the process that leads up to the use of Ninjutsu and Hiraishin has shown no noticeable build up unless Minato is warping something the size of Full Kurama away.

And the bold is baseless. If Itachi can form Susanoo before Kirin strikes him dead, there's absolutely no way Minato using Hiraishin will be slower than Minato actually moving his body.

Rank is learning difficulty not performing difficulty. Where did the Manga ever say that the rank of a jutsu implies the amount of difficulty the user will have actually performing it? So that nulls your entire point.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 20, 2016)

It required 3 of Minato's bodyguards to even replicate Hiraishin. It's obviously a high-level technique which is why it's a technique exclusive to only Tobirama and Minato.


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## wooly Eullerex (Jan 20, 2016)

Strength: tie
Speed: tie
Shunshin Speed: D rank jutsu
Reflexes: Minato
Durability: tie
Versatility: tie

Offensive Ninjutsu: tie
Defensive Ninjutsu: tie
Taijutsu: Tobirama
Fuinjutsu/Kekkaijutsu: Tie
Kuchiyose: Minato
Weapons/Tools: Tobirama

Intelligence: 
Knowledge: Tobirama
Tactics: tie

Chakra Control: tie
Chakra Capacity: Tobirama


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 21, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Thanks Captain Obvious, now tell me something I didn't know. And something that actually proves your or Rocky's point.



 So then, there's nothing to discuss.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 21, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> So then, there's nothing to discuss.



In the subject of "Is Hiraishin an advanced technique?" Yes. In the subject of "Is it difficult for Minato to perform"? No.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Which doesn't prove your point as Minato "telling" the chakra what to do isn't the long part of performing any Ninjutsu.



That depends on what the purpose of the chakra is (the ninjutsu or genjutsu). By the way, my argument isn't "Hiraishin is slow." It's that Minato might not necessarily be capable of using it faster than he can block. Blocking is one of the quickest defenses too, even for people who aren't exceptionally fast. 



KeyofMiracles said:


> Itachi doesn't move faster than lightning, so no, he can't dodge block or physically react.



He doesn't need to. For Itachi to block Kirin, Itachi's arms need to move up Itachi's head before Kirin travels from the clouds to Itachi.



KeyofMiracles said:


> No, there is obviously a difference. How long it takes you to learn a technique and how hard it is to learn it has jack to do with how hard it is to perform said technique once you get it.



Somebody may be so good at a difficult technique that they can perform it consistently & quickly, but that doesn't mean the technique is no longer considered difficult or complicated in a general sense. On the other hand, blocking is as simple as it gets.

Why aren't you posting any evidence to support your side? If Hiraishin, or any no-seal ninjutsu, is definitely faster than blocking, then souldn't there be an example of a character saying "I can't block this" and using ninjutsu to defend instead?


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2016)

Seal-less Jutsu takes less speed than physically blocking or striking. It's the same reason Sasuke could use Amaterasu to block his Susano in response to Ei despite not even being able to turn his head and follow his movement. 

It's like saying if there was two minato's standing 1 foot from eachother, that one could physically slap the other before the other could Hirashin away.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Sasuke wasn't in a proper position to block because A ran behind him, and Sasuke wouldn't have blocked anyway because A would have taken his arms off. As for that analogy, slapping somebody takes longer than blocking.


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## Veracity (Jan 21, 2016)

Strentgh: Tobirama
Raw speed: Tobirama as he has god speed hands
Shunshin speed: N/A. Not enough information present as tobirama said Minatos FTG was better, not his flicker being faster. 
Reflexes: Tobirama( Goudama scene)
Durability: Tobirama
Versatility: Tobirama
Offensive jutsu: Tobirama
Defensive jutsu:Minato
Taijutsu: Tobirama via experience + handspeed/strentgh/durability advantage. 
Fuinjutsu: Minato
Summoning: Tobirama. Developing and using Edo> Toads and Shinagami
Sensory abilities: Tobirama
Intelligence: Tobirama
Knowledge: Tobirana
Tactics: Tobirama
Chakra control: Minato
Chakra capacity: Tobirama


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke wasn't in a proper position to block because A ran behind him, and Sasuke wouldn't have blocked anyway because A would have taken his arms off. As for that analogy, slapping somebody takes longer than blocking.



Irrelevant. Sasuke *could not even move his head*, which obviously is a much quicker reaction and vital to blocking as an action itself. Unless you are arguing he could have, thus Making MS Sasuke someone who could have physically reacted to block Ei.

The obvious interpretation is that his seal-less jutsu is quicker to execute than physically moving as it only has a mental component to kneading and casting the jutsu unlike other jutsu which requires physical molding with seals.

MS Jutsu especially require large amounts of chakra, and have a noticeable build up time to great sensors, unlike Hirashin. So Hirashin is no different. 

you also didn't respond to my analogy. Do you think a Minato standing 1 foot away from another Minato could physically smack his counterpart in the fact before he teleported away?


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Sasuke *could not even move his head*



When A evaded Amaterasu, Sasuke lost track of him. Sasuke did actually turn his head to try and follow, but A was already behind him. Having lost sight of a guy that can beat his way through Susanoo with nothing but speed & power, Sasuke opted to cover his armor in the black flames. Blocking was not an option in that situation, so I don't know why you brought this up. 



Dr. White said:


> you also didn't respond to my analogy.





Rocky said:


> As for that analogy, slapping somebody takes longer than blocking.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> That depends on what the purpose of the chakra is (the ninjutsu or genjutsu). By the way, my argument isn't "Hiraishin is slow." It's that Minato might not necessarily be capable of using it faster than he can block. Blocking is one of the quickest defenses too, even for people who aren't exceptionally fast.



Yeah, not slower than a jutsu that is activated via thought and requires virtually no build up in chakra. "Blocking is fast" isn't going to change that.




> He doesn't need to. For Itachi to block Kirin, Itachi's arms need to move up Itachi's head before Kirin travels from the clouds to Itachi.



And if Sasuke can't react to Ay with any physical movement then Itachi isn't doing the same against Kirin. And please don't say "he wasn't in a good position to block".  Sasuke couldn't visibly track Ay's speed so you can forget about him being able to react in any physical manner just like how KN0 was beating the shit out of him with no reaction when Sasuke couldn't visibly track his speed either.



> Somebody may be so good at a difficult technique that they can perform it consistently & quickly, but that doesn't mean the technique is no longer considered difficult or complicated in a general sense. On the other hand, blocking is as simple as it gets.



Like I said, how long it takes them to learn it has nothing to do with how difficult it is to perform it after learning it and perfecting it. Even then, if they take a tech that is difficulty, and learn how to perform it with ease then you still don't have a point because then they aren't having any difficulty with the technique.




> Why aren't you posting any evidence to support your side? If Hiraishin, or any no-seal ninjutsu, is definitely faster than blocking, then souldn't there be an example of a character saying "I can't block this" and using ninjutsu to defend instead?



The fact that Hiraishin is activated via thought and requires no noticeable build up is my evidence. Your evidence is "blocking is a basic reflex, thus it's faster" even though you've yet to actually prove that a physical movement is faster than a no seal Ninjutsu that requires no build up.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

I didn't make the claim that blocking was faster. I said it could be; we don't know which is faster. As I said before, no-seal ninjutsu aren't inherently faster than a simple arm guard. That wasn't proposed anywhere in the manga to my recollection.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I didn't make the claim that blocking was faster. I said it could be; we don't know which is faster. As I said before, no-seal ninjutsu aren't inherently faster than a simple arm guard. That wasn't proposed anywhere in the manga to my recollection.



Thought>>>Physical movement in speed.

Build up of chakra for the teleportation of a human sized object via Hiraishin? Not noticeable.

So how does physical movement supersede or even come close to thought+Hiraishin? Whether it was spoonfed to us from the Manga doesn't matter because common sense and logic tell you that blocking can't be faster.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Hiraishin isn't a thought. It's a jutsu. An _action. _


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Hiraishin isn't a thought. It's a jutsu. An _action. _





> hought>>>Physical movement in speed.
> 
> Build up of chakra for the teleportation of a human sized object via Hiraishin? Not noticeable.



Thought+Chakra build up=Hiraishin's activated. Now re-read my post.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Dunno what you mean by "thought."


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Sasuke wasn't in a proper position to block because A ran behind him, and Sasuke wouldn't have blocked anyway because A would have taken his arms off. As for that analogy, slapping somebody takes longer than blocking.



Ei was in front of Sasuke. Ei was so fast that Sasuke couldn't track him via line of sight which is why Amaterasu was summoned on the samurai. Sasuke perceived Ei moving out of his way, but was not able to physically react by looking to where Ei was going to end up.

Because of this he guestimated from teh trail and mentally casted an amaterasu to block his blindside.

To gueest Sasuke wouldn't have both blocked and casted if he could have is nonsensical IMO, especially when he couldn't even move his head. There is no way Sauce would forego protecting his head especially since he had just been liger bombed and felt his strength.

The argument that Hirashin is an action and not a thought is a moot point because a thought can be defined as an action ( e.g "I thought about it".) and sealless jutsu are inherently faster than physical movement. Hirashin, Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Kamui, Minato's Rasengan (which techniacally requires him to move his hand up), etc are all faster than physical movement casting speed wise.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

I don't even know what point you're trying to make with Raikage. He lost sight of A so he stopped turning around and used Kagutsuchi instead. If he had kept turning around, he would have been sent flying before he finished. 



> sealless jutsu are inherently faster than physical movement



That's a baseless generalization.


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I don't even know what point you're trying to make with Raikage. He lost sight of A so he stopped turning around and used Kagutsuchi instead. If he had kept turning around, he would have been sent flying before he finished.


He "lost sight" of Raikage because Raikage was faster than his line of sight and subsequent reactions. Mentally reacting something is faster than physicaly reacting to something. That is a fact. You're arbitrarily deciding that casting sealless jutsu takes a significant time, especially to skilled chakra controllers. Naruto was caught in ephemeral as soon as he saw Itachi's finger, as soon as Minato's Kunai reached Ei's back he instantly activated Hirashin, when Minato got hit by Ama/FRS and Goudama balls he used Hirashin nigh instantly. Acitvation of sealles jutsu is inherently a mental faculty, which is inherently faster than physical action (unless tedious in process like humans solving a physics problem) because the brain is the gate keeper and motherboard of all that goes in the human body.



> That's a baseless generalization.


See above.

Amaterasu is faster than most peple in the manga can move, and that's its summoning speed not even it's casting speed. So his War Kakashi's Kamui, so is Hirashin (faster than V2 Ei), so is Kamui, so is Susanoo activation, so is shaingan genjutu/pre cog (if locked in eye contact), etc.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mentally reacting to something is faster than physically reacting to something. That is a fact.



No, that is not a fact. I don't know who told you that was a fact. 



Dr. White said:


> You're arbitrarily deciding that casting sealless jutsu takes a significant time



"Significant" is subjective, and I never used that word. Casting any jutsu takes a certain amount of time because that's how Chakra works.



Dr. White said:


> Amaterasu is faster than most peple in the manga can move, and that's its summoning speed not even it's casting speed. So his War Kakashi's Kamui, so is Hirashin (faster than V2 Ei), so is Kamui, so is Susanoo activation, so is shaingan genjutu/pre cog (if locked in eye contact), etc.



The speed of the Chakra moulding & control is what's in question, not the speed of the actual techniques themselves.


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## Dr. White (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> No, that is not a fact. I don't know who told you that was a fact.


As someone who studies the brain/body (specifically the brain) I am telling you thatmental propgation with inside the body is faster than propogating muscles to move. This is inherent in our biology. If Hirashin can be activated when V2 Ei is under an inch from Minato's nose (after he waited for the kunai to move up behind his back) then he obviously mentally casted within that small timeframe from when he physically moved to place the kunai, as an example.



> "Significant" is subjective, and I never used that word. Casting any jutsu takes a certain amount of time because that's how Chakra works.


No were having a discussion about mental vs physical reactions. Seal less jutsu is completely mental. Physical requires a Brain - Body communication and then time for the body part to physically travel through space. Seal less jutsu has been shown time and time again to much quicker and effective than sealed jutsu, and much quicker than physical reactions on all fronts.

If Ino could Mind switch without ohysicall aiming she'd be much better.

Is Pein could sT without moving his arms it would be quicker.

Last Shikamaru can shadow manipulate without seals, it is much quicker and more effective, Kakashi upgraded chidori quality by using it without seals in the War Arc, etc.




> The speed of the Chakra moulding & control is what's in question, not the speed of the actual techniques themselves.


And time and time again we have seen that time is insigifigant and pretty much on par with mental though ala Hirashin (Minato using it mid explosion after physically unwrapping Naruto to escape the bomb blast, goudama, vs Ei) susanoo (Sasuke saving Naruto vs Juubito, Kirin blocking, Itachi reacting to save Sasuke from Mukai Tensei, etc), SM Naruto being able to form his Rasengan without clones, or physially forming it with his hand against Juubito is quicker than his previous use of the technique, etc.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 21, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Dunno what you mean by "thought."



Any action is invoked with a thought, then the action begins to happen. Which can either be blocking or using Hiraishin. And Hiraishin's build up is not noticeable so it's not going to take longer than it would for Minato to block.


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## Rocky (Jan 21, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> As someone who studies the brain/body (specifically the brain) I am telling you that mental propgation with inside the body is faster than propogating muscles to move. This is inherent in our biology.



Mental propagation of what? The signals transmitted between neurons? Well duh. We aren't talking about neurotransmission, though. We're talking about a mental reaction versus a physical reaction. Mental reactions aren't inherently faster than physical ones. _It depends on what each reaction is._ 



Dr. White said:


> If Hirashin can be activated when V2 Ei is under an inch from Minato's nose (after he waited for the kunai to move up behind his back) then he obviously mentally casted within that small timeframe from when he physically moved to place the kunai, as an example.



Minato could have been going through the steps to activate Flying Raijin while flipping the Kunai up. 



Dr. White said:


> Seal less jutsu has been shown time and time again to much quicker and effective than sealed jutsu, and much quicker than physical reactions on all fronts.



I disagree that all no-seal ninjutsu were shown to be far quicker than arm guards.



Dr. White said:


> If Ino could Mind switch without ohysicall aiming she'd be much better. Is Pein could sT without moving his arms it would be quicker. Last Shikamaru can shadow manipulate without seals, it is much quicker and more effective, Kakashi upgraded chidori quality by using it without seals in the War Arc, etc.



If Shikamaru could manipulate shadows without seals, it would probably be because he's become so fast at the process of controlling the chakra in that way that the hand seal actually slows him down instead of speeding him up, which by the way is _why the seals exist in the first place._ Generally speaking, Chakra is difficult to control. Hand seals make it easier to manipulate, thus speeding up the process of actually using ninjutsu. 

For example, Zabuza is a scrub at Suiryūdan. He needs forty-four hand seals to use the dragon. Mei is a pro; she only needs a single seal to form the dragon, without a water source nonetheless. If Mei dedicated enough time to Suiryūdan, she could probably achieve the ability to form the dragon without a seal faster than she could form it with one. 

Most Shinobi don't take that road because it's silly to spend so much time on a single technique. Instead, they'll work on their dexterity and _increase the rate at which they can form seals_, like Itachi. Instead of training one technique to increase its speed, they can train their seals to increase the speed of _all their techniques at once._ There are some exceptions, but that's the gist of it.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 22, 2016)

Makes me wonder why Raikage didn't use seals when charging up for his V2 Flicker.


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## fyhb (Jan 22, 2016)

First I want to say Hello to all people here!  I am new to this Forums and hope to have fun with you guys. 

Now before I give my opinion of the Topic ,I want you to know that I am not some sick Tobirama fan boy,although I admit he by far my favorite character,but not only because of power but mroe for his visual appearance! After him my favs are Hashirama,Madara,Minato and etc. So I alwasy tend to look objectively on thing such as this 

Now let's star with this that Tobirama being a Senju most certainly has some advantages of the Body and Chakra Pool,like physical strenght,stamina/durability and big chakra pool! And a feat of defeating Izuna,MAdara's little bor who was said to be quite equal to his brother at the time and was a 2 MS Sharingan User ad while MInato beat a MS User let's not forget he had only 1 MS Sharingan adn it is clear that to gain their True Power like Susanoo and etc. one need Both eyes,which suggests Izuna was somewhat stronger like whole than Obito whos main strneght was his own Teleportation!  
*
Strength:* Tobirama ( Being a Senju and having quite tougher life of survivel)
*Raw Speed:* Minato (close to a Tie)
*Shunshin Speed:* Minato (Tobirama himself stated that MInato is better with Shunsin than him)
*Reflexes: *Tobirama (quite a few feats show this trough the War - like being abel to MArk and Touch 6 time Juubito)
*Durability: *Tobirama (again Senju body,and he was able to fight against the Uchiha for like 24 hours none stop and still be able to Move freely although exausted)
*Versatility: *Tobirama (Best Suiton User,and let's not forget according to the Data Book he has few more Elements,which suggest he could use quite more than just Suiton,while Minato relies mostly on Rasengan and Seal Techs)
*
Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama (Again bigger Arsenal of Jutsu and Chakra Elements)
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato (Can Teleport big Attacks from enough distance and until we see or know Tobirama can too this goes to Minato )
*Taijutsu:* Tobirama ( I think Tobirama was more adapt at Taijutsu,because he had to fight many Uchihas with Sharingan and all in Cloe Quaters)
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato (No need to say,Uzumaki Sealings,and we do not know if Tobirama had any Sealing Techs,althoug considering his Knowledge and Jutsu Creation he might have had quite few imporessive ones but that is just a speculation on my side)
*Kuchiyose: *Tobirama (Edo Tensei )
*Sensory Abilities:* Tobirama (on few ocasions Tobirama showed better Skills hear although closely even I give it to Tobirama,and after all Minato couldn't sense Zetsu coming when he got the Kyubi...)

*Intelligence:* Tobirama (Has the Brains to invent some of the Key Jutsu and who knows what else,not to mention his quick thought and etc. )
Knowledge: Tobirama ( He probably studied more since he was kinda of a sience guy,learning and analising and creatign techs and all,he knew instanlty of Omnyoton and etc.) 
Tactics: Tobirama (He came up with most of the strategies against Juubito,while MInato was just asssiting)
*
Chakra Control:* Tie (Rasengan vs Water Dragon from 44 Signs made with 1 !? )
*Chakra Capacity:* Tobirama (Again Being as Senju, Teleporting 2 Kurama with Giant Rassengans and not even being slightly exausted by it,cracking Walls and scaring Oror,Sasuke,Minato and HIruzen just with 1 Finger and some CHakra display forcing his big bro to intervene)

And somethin I think must be added *Experience* after all Tobirama comse from a Age of contant Wars and he is fighting in tough battles with Uchiha and many other Clans from like he was 5 years old the next 20 yers of constant battles so I think here Tobirama has the advantage of more Battle Exp too...

I really thing they are close match in some areas but still Tobirama is superior in most things,which doesnt mean in any case that MInato is weak or anything,it is just everyone is strong agaisnt some and weaker against others,many things depend!


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## Dr. White (Jan 22, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Mental propagation of what? The signals transmitted between neurons? Well duh. We aren't talking about neurotransmission, though. We're talking about a mental reaction


Uhm..What? Mentally reacting to something just entails taking in a stimuli and processing it, and thinking about a solution. Physically reacting entails all of that, plus the extra steps of transmissions to the muscles and the pove through space itself.




> versus a physical reaction. Mental reactions aren't inherently faster than physical ones. _It depends on what each reaction is._


Mentally reacting is faster than physically reacting in the context we are talking about here. When you physically dodge something you are doing all the steps of mentally reacting and then some, which is why it is slower.

In the same light seal less jutsu are inherently faster than sealed jutsu with special exception. 




> Minato could have been going through the steps to activate Flying Raijin while flipping the Kunai up.


Prove that is reasonable to believe. Occam's razor suggest he barely reacted and was clearly surprised. He was able to get a kunai up on his way over, and dodge by a hair and mentally hirashin after dodging. It's the same thing with him saving baby Naruto, it is more reasonable to suggest Hirashin can be mentally activated with ease in about the same time it takes to think, hell even Pein could ST, a split second after his time limit got up and raikiri was inches from his face. It is unreasonable to assume that these shinobi are going through complex preparatory actions in their head while also dodging things by the skin of their teeth and being barely able to react in the first place.

Minato literally had a couple milliseconds to physically react, and use hirashin. If we go by your logic that he needed to prep using the jutsu while throwing it up, instead of being capable of doing post kunai throw, means Hirashin activation speed is slower than Minato's striking speed. since Hirashin is dependent on Minato's reactions that would suggest, Minato's striking speed is faster than his mental reactions which is clearly wrong since he has very coordinated movements.



> I disagree that all no-seal ninjutsu were shown to be far quicker than arm guards.


Can you give me an example? If it's just dependent on mental activation that most are faster than an arm guard. 




> If Shikamaru could manipulate shadows without seals, it would probably be because he's become so fast at the process of controlling the chakra in that way that the hand seal actually slows him down instead of speeding him up,


Sooooo, Shikamaru can mentally propagate his chakra kneading/control so advanced that using seals would slow him down; in other words, sealless jutsu is faster than sealed jutsu, if your advanced enough to accomplish the chakra control. Sounds like Minato and his mastery of Hirashin as opposed to his 3 special Jounin who can only use it together and is non efficient in battle because it requires multiple people and a seal of trust or whatever they use to propagate it.


> which by the way is _why the seals exist in the first place._ Generally speaking, Chakra is difficult to control. Hand seals make it easier to manipulate, thus speeding up the process of actually using ninjutsu.


And Minato is clearly good enough that he can mentally sue Hirashin to react as opposed having to perform some sort of physical ritual. Not seeing the point of bringing this up.


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## Rocky (Jan 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Mentally reacting to something just entails taking in a stimuli and processing it, and thinking about a solution.



Lol. If the stimulus is v2 Raikage's fist, and your "mental reaction" is _only_ to think of a solution, Raikage is going to turn your face inside out. 



Dr. White said:


> Mentally reacting is faster than physically reacting in the context we are talking about here. When you physically dodge something you are doing all the steps of mentally reacting and then some, which is why it is slower.



If "the context we are talking about here" means in Naruto, then you're incorrect. When Minato uses Hiraishin, he is consciously manipulating his Chakra to achieve a defined goal. _He does not have to do that to react physically to something_. 

You _really_ aren't aware of this? I mean, most physical reflexes _aren't even voluntary._ Stand up and try to fall over backwards. Your body will not let you fall. Find a friend and tell him to pretend to punch you in the face. You are going to blink when his hand gets close. 

There are dozens of examples like that. 



Dr. White said:


> It is unreasonable to assume that these shinobi are going through complex preparatory actions in their head while also dodging things by the skin of their teeth and being barely able to react in the first place.



I'm sorry you find a fact unreasonable, but I can't do anything about it. Moulding & manipulating the correct amount of chakra in the correct way for an S-Rank Ninjutsu would count as a "complex preparatory action." 

A highly skilled Shinobi like Minato going through this difficult process rather quickly does not make it not difficult anymore. Oh, and just because Minato barely _reacted_ to Raikage does not mean Minato barely _perceived_ Raikage.  



Dr. White said:


> If we go by your logic that he needed to prep using the jutsu while throwing it up, instead of being capable of doing post kunai throw, means Hirashin activation speed is slower than Minato's striking speed.



I don't know where you got "striking speed" from. 



Dr. White said:


> Can you give me an example? If it's just dependent on mental activation that most are faster than an arm guard.



Yeah, I can. Obito was too slow to warp himself away from Madara's truth-seeking balls, so he had to block them with his staff. You've also got Madara & Jūgo throwing last second guards up with A's fist right in their face. I don't know why an arm guard would be inherently slower than a ninjutsu just because the ninjutsu doesn't use seals.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 12, 2016)

*Strength:* Incomparable 
*Raw Speed:* Minato, his Body Flicker was mistakened for his Flying Thunder God by his own pupil. Tobirama has no feats with Body Flicker. 
*Reflexes:* People keep bringing up how Tobirama was fast enough to place explosive tags on Juubito before he could realize it. It should be noted that 1) Juubito was pretty mindless and dumb at that point. and 2) Minato, while armless, was fast enough to leap inbetween the trajectory of a rampaging Eight Gate Guy's Fifth Step and intercept an attack from a TTJ Madara (who is much stronger than Juubito) and teleport out of the way of Guy's charge and teleport Madara's attack away and out of his range so that he could not use it to harm Guy. That, combined with Minato's earlier feats such as dodging a V2 A's Lightning Straight at point blank range and managing to warp to a tree and then warp behind A combined with him defeating Obito makes his reflexes much greater than Tobirama's. 
*Durability:* Incomparable
*Versatility:* About even, the majority of Minato's arsenal may revolve around FTG and Rasengan but Tobirama's revolves around Water Release and FTG and Minato's FTG is superior as both shown and stated, his usage of it is better, and while Tobirama was stated to have incredible water release capabilities he actually hasn't shown that much. Whilst Minato has also shown several fuinjutsu and summoning techniques. Tobirama has Edo Tensei, but his are the weakest and they require much preparation and they're much weaker than when they were alive.

*Offensive Ninjutsu:* Tobirama, he has shown more destructive and more lethal ninjutsu between his water release and his explosive tags. 
*Defensive Ninjutsu:* Minato, his guiding thunder has the ability to easily send most projectiles away and even possibly back at the user. 
*Taijutsu:* Incomparable
*Fuinjutsu:* Minato, he says he's learned most of his fuinjutsu from Kushina and has shown that he knows quite a few high level ones. 
*Kuchiyose:* Minato, he can summon Gamabunta and other toads. His Food Cart Destroyer can summon the toad above his opponent. Tobirama's Edo Tensei is the weakest version of them all and takes prep.
*Sensory Perception:* Although not by much, Tobirama's sensory abilities have shown to be superior than Minato's due to his ability to sense Karin's lineage. 

*Intelligence:* Tobirama wins in terms of intelligence, by not by a large amount.
*Knowledge:* Tobirama, he is from a few generations before Minato and has shown that he has a wider range of knowledge and understanding of many jutsu. 
*Tactics:* I say they're about even here. 

*Chakra Control:* Tie
*Chakra Capacity:* Minato, he was able to teleport away full Kurama's TBB, fight Obito, summon Gamabunta, then teleport Kurama and his second TBB away, then have enough left over to use the Eight Trigrams Sealing Style and Dead Demon Consuming Seal while impaled to seal away half of Kurama in himself, seal away the remnants of his own chakra and Kushina's in Naruto's seal, and then seal the other half of Kurama away. He also did this after struggling to constantly keep Kurama's seal on Kushina in place when Kurama kept trying to break out. Then when reanimated he teleported away a TBB from the Ten-Tails itself in its third form. Tobirama has shown that his are quite high too, as he has teleported two TBB users and their attacks at once but that still isn't on the same level. Minato also possesses Sage Mode, which requires massive reserves itself. Tobirama may be a Senju, but actual feats > heritage and hype.


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## Skaddix (Feb 12, 2016)

Think the point is Minato doesnt have any lag between his brain thinking move even subconciously and actually doing it. Dodging still requires you to get your muscles to do something. Hirashin doesnt have to be physically cast so the only thing limiting it is Minato having sealed kunais prepared and in place. After that  All he has to do is think move and he moves.

Shikamaru is a bad example because those Shadows have a movement time so sure he might not have to make seals but his shadows have to move towards a target to do anything. I say its closer to people turning on chakra shrouds that seems to be the closest instant jutsu or Tobi when he phases out.


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