# Itachi vs. Tsunade



## trance (May 27, 2015)

Location: Sannin battleground

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted for Tsunade, IC but intent to kill for Itachi.

Distance: 75m


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## Rocky (May 27, 2015)

What can Itachi do about the slug.


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## Bonly (May 27, 2015)

Normally I would copy Rocky post since he's the last post but fuck it.

Itachi gets an acid bath as the Queen of solo laughs at his arsenal and does what she does best as she is the Itachi of summonings, The Great Katsuyu-Sama 


​


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## LostSelf (May 27, 2015)

Itachi shot 2 Amaterasu shots that were incredibly large. If he uses it in the head of the slug (wich is how Katsuyu has only been shown dividing), the parts she divide will be dragged down, burning the lower parts. Or he simply surrounds the slug in a circle of fire.

Or ignores the slug and fights Tsunade. Totsuka should be able to pierce Katsuyu, and if Tsunade is inside, he can pierce her and seal her.

Or Magatama. That attack is incredibly powerful to the point of solo'ing Chibaku Tensei .


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Itachi has multiple ways to take down Tsunade. Actually Tsunade is a non factor here since her only shot of even touching Itachi is through CQC which won't happen due to Itachi's crow bunshin skills, then there's Tsukiyomi of course which can one-shot Tsunade. 

The slug is a problem because it's got no eyes for Genjutsu but finger Genjutsu will prolly sort her out.


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## Icegaze (May 27, 2015)

tskuyomi GG

finger genjutsu still requires eyes for it to work
it catches anyone who looks at itachi fingers. 

its not just itachi pointing and catching people who arent even looking at his fingers


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

They are on the same level. However, Tsunade's odds to win is higher than itachi. We know that Tsunade is able to deal with itachi's strongest Genjutsu, with basic medical ninjutsu as she did to Sasuke/Kakashi. Or at least, the damage from the Genjutsu anyway, so Tsukiyomi is a non-factor.

She also is fully capable of taking on 5 Susanoo that each of them is stronger than itachi with far superior abilities. In addition to that she has much more chakra and she also has Katsuyu which itachi can do nothing against it.

Amatersu is useless, and shouldn't be taken seriously, nor anyone who think that this jutsu is meant to be taken seriously either. So, there is no point going on about it.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (May 27, 2015)

Katsuya solos low diff.


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## Grimsley (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade wins on the basis that Itachi won't be able to take down Katsuyu


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> They are on the same level. However, Tsunade's odds to win is higher than itachi. *We know that Tsunade is able to deal with itachi's strongest Genjutsu, with basic medical ninjutsu* as she did to Sasuke/Kakashi. Or at least, the damage from the Genjutsu anyway, so Tsukiyomi is a non-factor.
> 
> She also is fully capable of taking on 5 Susanoo that each of them is stronger than itachi with far superior abilities. In addition to that she has much more chakra and she also has Katsuyu which itachi can do nothing against it.
> 
> Amatersu is useless, and shouldn't be taken seriously, nor anyone who think that this jutsu is meant to be taken seriously either. So, there is no point going on about it.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Let me guess. You have never read P1?


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Let me guess. You have never read P1?



There's a difference between getting hit by the Jutsu straight on and recovering someone's injuries from the said Jutsu. Tsukiyomi wasn't active when Sasuke and Kakashi were bed ridden so she didn't directly deal with Tsukiyomi in any way.

Also your whole post is full of nonsense. You say Itachi and Tsunade are on the same level and yet the post reeks of Itachi being unable to do anything to Tsunade whilst Tsunade can do everything to Itachi


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Which is why I said she can at least deal with the damage, but I guess you never bothered to actually read. Tsunade's advance healing jutsu is automatic and working the entire time as well. So, no matter how you look at it, it's useless. Sorry for having to break that down to you. 



> Also your whole post is full of nonsense. You say Itachi and Tsunade are on the same level and yet the post reeks of Itachi being unable to do anything to Tsunade whilst Tsunade can do everything to Itachi



Sorry, but anyone who is not an itachi-tard knows that itachi is on the same level as the sannin. Only thing that allows him to be higher is pure wank and popularity. Otherwise, I would love if you can bring anything about itachi's power that is not comparable to the sannin.

without the wank-glasses, he was only compared to a Sannin level in the manga. Nothing more, nothing less.
And since Tsunade is a sannin, and a counterpart for him being from the Senju who are the uchiha rivals, yes, 
they are on the same level.


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Implying Itachi's an idiot and wouldn't proceed to attack her again if somehow she survives Tsukiyomi. Itachi has full knowledge here so he knows about Tsunade's medical prowess. Her healing techs may be automatic but that didn't stop her from getting cut in half.


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## Hand Banana (May 27, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Normally I would copy Rocky post since he's the last post but fuck it.
> 
> Itachi gets an acid bath as the Queen of solo laughs at his arsenal and does what she does best as she is the Itachi of summonings, The Great Katsuyu-Sama
> 
> ...



The same way she did to madara right?


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Implying Itachi's an idiot and wouldn't proceed to attack her again if somehow she survives Tsukiyomi. Itachi has full knowledge here so he knows about Tsunade's medical prowess. Her healing techs may be automatic but that didn't stop her from getting cut in half.



Except if he failed 1 time he is already at a disadvantage because of his low chakra. Also, yes, he has full knowledge, and so do Tsunade. Why do you think he won't make those mistakes, but Tsunade would? Even tho she is far more experienced than him, and she was not put in a genjutsu even though she was fighting 5 madara's at the same time. 

Surely, you don't think fighting 5 clones with EMS from different angles is easier than avoiding 1 itachi.  



> Her healing techs may be automatic but that didn't stop her from getting cut in half.



Not sure what does that have to do with anything, but regardless, she healed that as well.


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## Hand Banana (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except if he failed 1 time he is already at a disadvantage because of his low chakra. Also, yes, he has full knowledge, and so do Tsunade. Why do you think he won't make those mistakes, but Tsunade would? Even tho she is far more experienced than him, and she was not put in a genjutsu even though she was fighting 5 madara's at the same time.
> 
> Surely, you don't think fighting 5 clones with EMS from different angles is easier than avoiding 1 itachi.



He was not shown using genjutsu against her so that was a poor argument.





> Not sure what does that have to do with anything, but regardless, she healed that as well.



Madara left her cut in half. had he wanted to, he could have killed all the previous hokages. he left them for the trash that they were.


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## Mercurial (May 27, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> There's a difference between getting hit by the Jutsu straight on and recovering someone's injuries from the said Jutsu. Tsukiyomi wasn't active when Sasuke and Kakashi were bed ridden so she didn't directly deal with Tsukiyomi in any way.
> 
> Also your whole post is full of nonsense. You say Itachi and Tsunade are on the same level and yet the post reeks of Itachi being unable to do anything to Tsunade whilst Tsunade can do everything to Itachi



A doctor can heal someone from the effects of a bullet. A doctor can also heal himself from the effects of a bullet.

Suddenly, a doctor is then invulnerable from the bullets just because he can heal their effect  I wonder why we don't see medicians walking through battlefields not caring about the bullets 

Itachi negs. He is far, far, far faster than Tsunade plus has Sharingan precognition, more taijutsu skill and finesse, Sharingan and finger genjutsu, top notch bushinjutsu skills. She is not dreaming to touch him. She can't avoid or stop Totsuka no Tsurugi, she gets easily sealed. She can't dodge or stop Amaterasu. She would be trolled like there was no tomorrow from Itachi's genjutsu. Katsuyu it's a non factor, its acid it's ridicolously slow compared to Itachi's speed, not to mention eventually Itachi could always use Susanoo and then spread Amaterasu.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

NaS said:


> He was not shown using genjutsu against her so that was a poor argument.
> 
> 
> Madara left her cut in half. had he wanted to, he could have killed all the previous hokages. he left them for the trash that they were.



- The fight was Off-panel. We know Madara is a genjutsu user as well, and he has much more chances than itachi could do. 

- I don't know what does that have to do with anything. She survived, and healed everyone. 
Not as if Madara survived for anything but being an ET anyway.


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except if he failed 1 time he is already at a disadvantage because of his low chakra. Also, yes, he has full knowledge, and so do Tsunade. Why do you think he won't make those mistakes, but Tsunade would? Even tho she is far more experienced than him, and she was not put in a genjutsu even though she was fighting 5 madara's at the same time.
> 
> Surely, you don't think fighting 5 clones with EMS from different angles is easier than avoiding 1 itachi.



Because Tsunade doesn’t have anything to beat Itachi even with full knowledge. She will just be defensive trying to counter anything Itachi throws at her. She has full knowledge of the MS but if she doesn’t have any counters to Tsukiyomi or Totsuka then it’s useless while Itachi having knowledge on Tsunade’s arsenal gives him a better advantage to not underestimate Tsunade’s durability so he will opt to use the big guns to finish her off the bat. 

Also Madara didn't use Genjutsu on Tsunade. Stop making shit up. 



> Not sure what does that have to do with anything, but regardless, she healed that as well.



To show that her healing techs aren’t the greatest shit there is that she can be immune from everything and she didn’t heal herself instantly, it took a long time to heal her. Point is she was in that state and if Madara wanted to kill her, he could have done so. So if Tsunade survives a Tsukiyomi which she’ll be busy trying to lessen her injuries, she ain’t gonna stop a Totsuka to her chest.



Raikiri19 said:


> A doctor can heal someone from the effects of a bullet. A doctor can also heal himself from the effects of a bullet.
> 
> Suddenly, a doctor is then invulnerable from the bullets just because he can heal their effect  I wonder why we don't see medicians walking through battlefields not caring about the bullets



Hussain's level in a nutshell 

I know he doesn't like Itachi but that's just reaching


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Pocalypse said:


> Because Tsunade doesn?t have anything to beat Itachi even with full knowledge. She will just be defensive trying to counter anything Itachi throws at her. She has full knowledge of the MS but if she doesn?t have any counters to Tsukiyomi or Totsuka then it?s useless while Itachi having knowledge on Tsunade?s arsenal gives him a better advantage to not underestimate Tsunade?s durability so he will opt to use the big guns to finish her off the bat.
> 
> Also Madara didn't use Genjutsu on Tsunade. Stop making shit up.
> 
> ...



- Yes. Any hit from her and he is done for. It's not like itachi can last for long, nor can he keep his Susanoo up for long either. 

- I already told you Tsukiyomi is useless, unless you can prove that she can't heal the damage for whatever reason you think, then there is no point bringing that up. 

- I did not say he did, so stop putting your nonsense in my mouth. What I am saying is Madara is from the uchiha, and he is a genjutsu user. He uses the genjutsu when he can like he did with A. The fact that we have never seen Tsunade under the genjutsu means it's not as silly as itachi's fans try to make it out to be. If Genjutsu will finish her in 1 second, madara would have done so.  

- It took a long time because she was fighting for freaking hours and healing the other 4 Kages first.
Unlike Madara, itachi can't fight for hours, nor is she going to waste her chakra helping 4 other people besides herself either.  

As for the injury and being busy healing it (even tho it did not really take much time), I have no idea why would you think Katsuyu will be standing there and just watching without doing anything 


---
I am having some problems with the forum currently. -_-



> Hussain's level in a nutshell
> 
> I know he doesn't like Itachi but that's just reaching



Or you lack the reading comprehension to get the manga for fall for such an utterly retarded example. 
Tsunade and Sakura are exception because of the 100 seal. That was directly stated flat out. Kishi did not even expect such amazing reading comprehension from the readers.  

That's why you don't see the others going on to fight, sir. Got it?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

Itachi blindsides 



Raikiri19 said:


> A doctor can heal someone from the effects of a bullet. A doctor can also heal himself from the effects of a bullet.
> 
> Suddenly, a doctor is then invulnerable from the bullets just because he can heal their effect  I wonder why we don't see medicians walking through battlefields not caring about the bullets



What this guy said.

Tsunade won't be conscious to do anything about Tsukiyomi.


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Itachi solos, this isn't even a question, she's like 2 tiers slower than him, she gets her head cleaved off or gets tsukyomi'd.



Hussain said:


> - Yes. Any hit from her and he is done for. It's not like itachi can last for long, nor can he keep his Susanoo up for long either.
> 
> - I already told you Tsukiyomi is useless, unless you can prove that she can't heal the damage for whatever reason you think, then there is no point bringing that up.
> 
> ...


Here's the problem with Tsunade, much like any muscle bound brawler we've seen in most works:
She's not fast enough to hit Itachi, let alone hit Kakashi
Then there's the sharingan precognition to deal with
She's not invulnerable, any shot through the head or heart is deadly for her.
No reasonable defense against Tsukuyomi
How does she plan on handling the black flames?
She's going to put in a box with Orochimaru and Nagato thanks to Totsuka
Tsunade is effectively outmatched here by far, she cannot compete in CQC thanks to Itachi's sharingan.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi solos, this isn't even a question, she's like 2 tiers slower than him, she gets her head cleaved off or gets tsukyomi'd.



despite her attacking Madara several time, and having no problem with it?  

A is faster than the first 3 Hokages more than 2 tiers, and yet, people won't say he's stronger than
Hashirama.


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> despite her attacking Madara several time, and having no problem with it?
> 
> A is faster than the first 3 Hokages more than 2 tiers, and yet, people won't say he's stronger than
> Hashirama.


Madara wasn't even being serious, he was testing their powers, had he been serious they'd end up the way they did with her split in half much sooner. The moment he unveiled Final Susano'o, that was a game changer for them and they were utterly powerless to stop him.

The difference is A is a one-trick pony (Itachi's also smarter than him), he might be faster than the first two hokages, he's not stronger because they have adequate methods of dealing with him. Hashirama utilizes senjutsu and Tobirama utilizes Hirashin, both of those techniques have been shown to trump a charging raikage


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Here's the problem with Tsunade, much like any muscle bound brawler we've seen in most works:
> She's not fast enough to hit Itachi, let alone hit Kakashi
> Then there's the sharingan precognition to deal with
> She's not invulnerable, any shot through the head or heart is deadly for her.
> ...



1- She did to madara several times who has better feat than itachi. 
2- Not a big deal really especially with katsuyu. 
3- That applies to all the characters really. The problem is with doing so. 
4- She can heal the damage easily as seen in the manga. 
5- As she deflected Madara's flame, or with Kawarimi.
6- if he hits her. However, itachi will die because the Susanoo will eat his life as well. 

Madara is like 5 tiers above itachi's level, and she did not have that problem with far superior sharingan. 

*****
why does the forum suck so much this day.


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## Ryuzaki (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> 1- She did to madara several times who has better feat than itachi.
> 2- Not a big deal really especially with katsuyu.
> 3- That applies to all the characters really. The problem is with doing so.
> 4- She can heal the damage easily as seen in the manga.
> ...


Madara let them fight, again he was testing their powers, the moment he got serious, they all got floored. He even said so in the manga, I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore this, but if that helps you sleep at night then by all means 

Amaterasu cannot be deflected, it stays until it burns through, Itachi won't die immediately after using Susano'o, he can use it from the get go should he chose to and she would not be able to do anything but get sealed.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara wasn't even being serious, he was testing their powers, had he been serious they'd end up the way they did with her split in half much sooner. The moment he unveiled Final Susano'o, that was a game changer for them and they were utterly powerless to stop him.
> 
> The difference is A is a one-trick pony (Itachi's also smarter than him), he might be faster than the first two hokages, he's not stronger because they have adequate methods of dealing with him. Hashirama utilizes senjutsu and Tobirama utilizes Hirashin, both of those techniques have been shown to trump a charging raikage



- What does being serious have to do with the speed she showed?
AoE
Look at the distance between them in the first panel. She is not as slow as you people make her out to be, nor is itachi as fast as you make him out to be either.
now here
AoE
the first panel she was no where to be seen, but then she attacked again directly after A's attack
AoE

Also, madara admitted that he can only beat them with his PS, and he used it twice. Itachi is a big compared to that.  

- 1 trick pony or no. He has the power to cut through the Hachibi's horn, and he is far faster than the first 3 Hokages in term of shunshin. By that logic he will cut their heads off that easily. Cutting though a human's neck is much easier than cutting though the Hachibi's horn, no?  

- Hashirama can use his Senjutsu before A can blitze? Also, A was 1 mm from Minato's head, so Tobirama who's slower won't have much time either. 

So, as you can see, having more speed is not really everything. Otherwise, even KCM Narudo would have fodderstompped both Nagato and itachi before they know what happened to them, and so on.



Brandon Lee said:


> now you are a Tsunade-fanboy Hussain



Not really, I am only a fan of the 3 blonds, and Kushina 
every time I talk about a character, that character fan/haters say that I am a fan of X or a hater of Y.

Same shit itachi, Tobirama, Hashirama, Kakashi, Madara, Sasuke's fans say all the time to me.
Hell, even Kyu just said that I don't like Minato, and the other guy with the hard name said I am not a fan of Naruto years ago. 

So, who knows, I might end up being a madara fan out of no where as well. 



Ryuzaki said:


> Madara let them fight, again he was testing their powers, the moment he got serious, they all got floored. He even said so in the manga, I don't understand why you are choosing to ignore this, but if that helps you sleep at night then by all means
> 
> Amaterasu cannot be deflected, it stays until it burns through, Itachi won't die immediately after using Susano'o, he can use it from the get go should he chose to and she would not be able to do anything but get sealed.



- I am not ignoring anything. The Gokage defeated all of his jutsu, and he admitted that and said they are worthy of their title. 

- Who said it can't be deflected exactly? Everyone and their mothers trolled that crap jutsu. 
- Yes, like she was not able to fight against 5 susanoos. Sure.


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## RBL (May 27, 2015)

Itachi Negs diff.

why do you like to ignore character's way of think.

Madara was holding back against the Gokage, because he said he wanted to test how strong the Kages of 'this' generation were.

We didn't see new feats for tsunade in that fight, and nothing that put her above or equal Itachi.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Madara only held back from using the PS. Otherwise, he used the strongest jutsu (besides PS) he has. 
1- he used the Rinnegan
2- he used the wood
3- he used EMS
4- he used 25 clones with 25 V3 Susanoo

...etc

you make it like if him "holding back" means he never used any jutsu whatsoever.


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## Reznor (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade wins.

Tsunade herself makes Susanoo unviable since she'd bust it too easily, Katsuya acid spit makes staying on foot difficult.

5% Katsuya or changing terrain can make cover for Tsunade on the fly, and Itachi can't kill Katsuya. 

Tsunade can avoid looking at Itachi to get Tsukiyomi'ed and avoid getting hit by Ameratsu. Even if she did get hit by one of those, she could _potentially _deal with it.

Best case I see for Itachi is both dying.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

Katsuya can also liquefied herself as well, and hell Tsunade on top of her if she needed to. And that will help against the Susanoo as itachi would be walking on her basically and she can attack him and help Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (May 27, 2015)

Katsuyu's acid would be a fairy bath to Susano'o. I still don't know when Katsuyu's acid became as unavoidable. Itachi reacts to that fairly easy. Tsunade can't also counter Amaterasu. She cannot even react to that.

Nor can dodge genjutsu when Sage Mode Kabuto had to cover his eyes. I doubt Tsunade is better than him at fighting without looking at somebody's eyes. Gai's the only one hyped to be able to do so. 

It's a matter of time before Tsunade is stabbed while she hides in Katsuyu, or burned with Ammy. Liquifiying won't shrug off the fire. Katsuyu doesn't need more overrating than the huge amount she already has, Hussain .


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## Ghost (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> She can heal the damage easily as seen in the manga.



Pretty sure I alone have told him at least five times how Tsunade healing herself after Tsukuyomi is impossible and people still seriously reply to his nonsense.


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## Jad (May 27, 2015)

Hussain is just getting a rile out of you guys.

Itachi is above the Sannins I believe. Admittedly, he has gifted abilities from an eye that continuously gets appreciated more than the Rennigan, which is cheap. But hey, that's Kishimoto......

Katsuya would be Tsunade's only chance of doing any real damage, but it's to hard to see it make any difference when a lot of the time, Summons aren't worth much against Kage ninja.


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Yes. Any hit from her and he is done for. It's not like itachi can last for long, nor can he keep his Susanoo up for long either.



Itachi doesn?t need to last long, this battle is a swift victory in Itachi?s favour. Tsunade has no means to engage Itachi in a CQC fight, which is her only option. She?ll be falling into his bunshin and Genjutsu traps everytime she tries to punch him whilst trying to cover herself so she doesn't get her head lopped off. 



> - I already told you Tsukiyomi is useless, unless you can prove that she can't heal the damage for whatever reason you think, then there is no point bringing that up.



And I told you Tsukiyomi isn?t useless because Tsunade has no way to counter the damage. You must be really thick to not understand the difference between getting hit by Tsukiyomi and healing someone else who got hit by Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi will hit Tsunade and she will be done for. 



> - I did not say he did, so stop putting your nonsense in my mouth. What I am saying is Madara is from the uchiha, and he is a genjutsu user. He uses the genjutsu when he can like he did with A. The fact that we have never seen Tsunade under the genjutsu means it's not as silly as itachi's fans try to make it out to be. If Genjutsu will finish her in 1 second, madara would have done so.



How does using Genjutsu on A means he used Genjutsu on Tsunade or rest of the Kages? This isn?t even relatable. Your logic is based on ?Madara is an Uchiha. He uses Genjutsu. So he used Genjutsu? 



> As for the injury and being busy healing it (even tho it did not really take much time), I have no idea why would you think Katsuyu will be standing there and just watching without doing anything



Because Katsuyu would have been either ? Amaterasu?d or Totsuka?d. Pick your poison.


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## Kai (May 27, 2015)

Tsunade either succumbs to Amaterasu or the Totsuka blade; Medical ninjutsu is hopeless against inextinguishable black flames, and it's also hopeless against a sword that seals victims within an eternal genjutsu.

Itachi is faster in reflexes and jutsu execution, allowing him almost full liberty to get his jutsu off against Tsunade successfully while Tsunade has to rely on evasion and healing for damage compensation. Those aren't options for her against Amaterasu and Totsuka.


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## Six (May 27, 2015)

I don't see whats stopping him from using the same paralysis genjutsu he used on Oro who has a perfect genjutsu stat and simply oneshotting with a just of his choice.


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## Trojan (May 27, 2015)

> =Pocalypse;53675322]Itachi doesn?t need to last long, this battle is a swift victory in Itachi?s favour. Tsunade has no means to engage Itachi in a CQC fight, which is her only option. She?ll be falling into his bunshin and Genjutsu traps everytime she tries to punch him whilst trying to cover herself so she doesn't get her head lopped off.



If 5 of madaras can't (no PS), then even 20 of itachi can't end it that fast.  


> And I told you Tsukiyomi isn?t useless because Tsunade has no way to counter the damage. You must be really thick to not understand the difference between getting hit by Tsukiyomi and healing someone else who got hit by Tsukiyomi. Tsukiyomi will hit Tsunade and she will be done for.


and I told you a million time her damn 100 seal keeps healing her automatically. She will get damaged, and they will heal herself right away. She is not part 1 Kakashi level, get over it.  



> How does using Genjutsu on A means he used Genjutsu on Tsunade or rest of the Kages? This isn?t even relatable. Your logic is based on ?Madara is an Uchiha. He uses Genjutsu. So he used Genjutsu?


Because when he got the chance to put him under a genjutsu, he did. Just like he putted that fodder who tried to attack him with a sword under a genjutsu as well. Therefore, Madara does avoid using his Genjutsu skills when he can use them to end the battle. 

Madara used the Genjutsu on the entire population. That more than your little beloved boy has ever done in his entire life time. 





> Because Katsuyu would have been either ? Amaterasu?d or Totsuka?d. Pick your poison.



And she will use her clone to get rid of the Amatersu, or split up to thousands of clones. Pick your poison.


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## Hand Banana (May 27, 2015)

Reznor said:


> Tsunade wins.
> 
> Tsunade herself makes Susanoo unviable since she'd bust it too easily, Katsuya acid spit makes staying on foot difficult.
> 
> ...



And yet she shows none of these feats.


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## Pocalypse (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If 5 of madaras can't (no PS), then even 20 of itachi can't end it that fast.



Madara was messing around in the fight, he didn?t even bother to kill them after he became serious. Nor did he use techniques like Amaterasu or Tsukiyomi. 



> and I told you a million time her damn 100 seal keeps healing her automatically. She will get damaged, and they will heal herself right away. She is not part 1 Kakashi level, get over it.



Then she?ll either be caught by Amaterasu or a Totsuka right through the chest if Itachi sees her struggling after Tsukiyomi where she?s healing herself. There is no win scenario for Tsunade here. Either Tsukiyomi beats her or she survives it with damage then gets one-shotted by another technique. 



> Because when he got the chance to put him under a genjutsu, he did. Just like he putted that fodder who tried to attack him with a sword under a genjutsu as well. Therefore, Madara does avoid using his Genjutsu skills when he can use them to end the battle.



This still doesn't answer my question on how Madara used Genjutsu on *Tsunade* when you have no viable proof other than speculation just because he used it on A and now, too add more meat to your theory, a *fodder* 



> Madara used the Genjutsu on the entire population. That more than your little beloved boy has ever done in his entire life time.



*Woah dude*, where did this come from? Jesus christ this must be hurting you 



> And she will use her clone to get rid of the Amatersu, or split up to thousands of clones. Pick your poison.



Tsunade is no way shape or form can react to Amaterasu. And sure, the slug can split which will carry the flames with it 



Law Trafalgar said:


> Dude, don't waste your time with him, nothing you say will get through.



Yeah I can see why, the guy's so angry that he gave me this:



> "Madara used the Genjutsu on the entire population. That more than your little beloved boy has ever done in his entire life time. "





Out of nowhere.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> I don't see whats stopping him from using the same paralysis genjutsu he used on Oro who has a perfect genjutsu stat and simply oneshotting with a just of his choice.



 There's no indication that Young Orochimaru had a perfect stat in genjutsu. It'd make more sense for him to have trained himself more extensively in genjutsu after that clash.


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## Alucardemi (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> There's no indication that Young Orochimaru had a perfect stat in genjutsu. It'd make more sense for him to have trained himself more extensively in genjutsu after that clash.



If we follow this same logic for Itachi, wouldn't he have improved his genjutsu prowess as well? Or do we have any evidence that his genjutsu prowess capped at 13?


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Alucardemi said:


> If we follow this same logic for Itachi, wouldn't he have improved his genjutsu prowess as well? Or do we have any evidence that his genjutsu prowess capped at 13?



 I never stated that Itachi didn't improve his genjutsu.

 If we want to be logical, Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu is compared to Itachi's 3T Genjutsu constantly and Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu matched Itachi's 3 Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu. I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi didn't pay attention to a detail like that or he was downright stupid as logic dictates that Itachi's genjutsu should've improved.


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## Sans (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> They are on the same level. However, Tsunade's odds to win is higher than itachi. We know that Tsunade is able to deal with itachi's strongest Genjutsu, with basic medical ninjutsu as she did to Sasuke/Kakashi. Or at least, the damage from the Genjutsu anyway, so Tsukiyomi is a non-factor.



Because she'll perform a medical operation while in a coma lol.


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## Bloo (May 27, 2015)

Hussain said:


> They are on the same level. However, Tsunade's odds to win is higher than itachi. We know that Tsunade is able to deal with itachi's strongest Genjutsu, with basic medical ninjutsu as she did to Sasuke/Kakashi. Or at least, the damage from the Genjutsu anyway, so Tsukiyomi is a non-factor.


Tsukuyomi is a non-factor? Tsunade treated patients who were in comas from the power of Tsukuyomi. How is she to treat herself if she were to respond similarly and is out-cold? Tsukuyomi will handle Tsunade if Itachi decides to use it on her and she doesn't take enough precautions to avoid eye contact.



> She also is fully capable of taking on 5 Susanoo that each of them is stronger than itachi with far superior abilities. In addition to that she has much more chakra and she also has Katsuyu which itachi can do nothing against it.


She was able to handle 5 clones that were purposefully toying with her. Also, they don't have the sacred weapons. Itachi's Susano'o is stronger than Madara's Susano'o clones.



> Amatersu is useless, and shouldn't be taken seriously, nor anyone who think that this jutsu is meant to be taken seriously either. So, there is no point going on about it.


Why would he need Amaterasu? Genjutsu will cover it.

As many have said, Itachi could easily take care of Tsunade. However, Itachi's only issue is Katsuyu. Totsuka should be able to handle it, though.


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## Reznor (May 27, 2015)

Kakashi didn't go down immediately from Tsukiyomi (Link - he goes down a chapter later affect some dialogue, thinking about a flashback, a little bit more fighting between other characters)

It's reasonable to assume that Tsunade would do better, since she has more stamina, better chakra control and although a 3.5 v 4 genjutsu, Part II Tsunade is much higher tier than Part 1 Kakashi.

If Tsunade can stay up for that moment, she might be able to counteract the effects in time. (She's treated two victims.) After all, Tsunade's treatment appeared very brief and said Sasuke would wake up shortly. (Link) It's reasonable to assume that she could prevent going unconcious at all if she worked quick.

You can counter any of these points that you want, but this certainly is "LOL MEDICAL JUTSU? THAT'S STUPID."


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Pero Tsunade haz no Sharingone meanin' she provides les resistins.


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## Bloo (May 27, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> *now you are a Tsunade-fanboy Hussain*
> 
> Itachi shits on tsunade with just one arm, anyday.
> 
> ...


He's not; Hussain champions anyone pitted against Itachi.



Reznor said:


> Kakashi didn't go down immediately from Tsukiyomi (Link - he goes down a chapter later affect some dialogue, thinking about a flashback, a little bit more fighting between other characters)
> 
> It's reasonable to assume that Tsunade would do better, since she has more stamina, better chakra control and although a 3.5 v 4 genjutsu, Part II Tsunade is much higher tier than Part 1 Kakashi.


Kakashi admitted to Itachi holding back entirely and stated that had Itachi wanted to, Kakashi would have died from the results of Tsukuyomi's trauma. Please try to come up with a counter-argument to explain how Tsunade is going to survive that when someone with higher genjutsu competency and some sharingan defense said that regarding Tsukuyomi's potency.



> If Tsunade can stay up for that moment, she might be able to counteract the effects in time. (She's treated two victims.) After all, Tsunade's treatment appeared very brief and said Sasuke would wake up shortly. (Link) It's reasonable to assume that she could prevent going unconcious at all if she worked quick.


Look above.



> You can counter any of these points that you want, but this certainly is "LOL MEDICAL JUTSU? THAT'S STUPID."


No, there are _many_ other valid counter-arguments to your contention.


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## StickaStick (May 27, 2015)

I'd give it to Itachi with high difficulty. Tsunade can pressure Itachi with Katsuyu and outlast for a bit but more often than not she's probably going to succumb to a well devised Ama tactic or something along those lines.


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## Reznor (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Pero Tsunade haz no Sharingone meanin' she provides les resistins.



But he failed to resist it. He didn't have Uchiha blood and his normal sharingan failed to block the effects.
P2 Sasuke was actually able to resist it. That's different.

In addition to the other reasons I stated: Consider that it's an MS ability and Kakashi was only using transplaned normal sharingan, Tsunade's senju blood has probably has more speculative claim to a resistance (based on the conversation about Izunagi and such)

Even assuming Sharingan minimized the damage, Tsunade is able withstand way more pain that Kakashi - I'd think that would more than make up the difference.


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## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

Reznor said:


> But he failed to resist it. He didn't have Uchiha blood and his normal sharingan failed to block the effects.
> P2 Sasuke was actually able to resist it. That's different.
> 
> In addition to the other reasons I stated: Consider that it's an MS ability and Kakashi was only using transplaned normal sharingan, Tsunade's senju blood has probably has more speculative claim to a resistance (based on the conversation about Izunagi and such)
> ...



 I might refute the rest later, but I simply want to refute the last point.

 It has less do with resistance to pain and more to do with Tsukyomi crushing her spirits through psychological trauma as stated by Kisame. Tsukyomi can easily create the illusion of Tsunade's most traumatic experience which was losing Dan and thus, diminish her willpower to fight and cause her to be more susceptible to the pain as a result.


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## Reznor (May 27, 2015)

> Kakashi admitted to Itachi holding back entirely and stated that had Itachi wanted to, Kakashi would have died from the results of Tsukuyomi's trauma. Please try to come up with a counter-argument to explain how Tsunade is going to survive that when someone with higher genjutsu competency and some sharingan defense said that regarding Tsukuyomi's potency.


1. Citation please.

2. Well, Jounin w/ 4 I don't consider higher than Kage w/ 3.5. That's how I interpret databook.
Also, Chakra Control was made into a big factor and Tsunade is leagues better.
I do think she could resist all of genjutsu better.

3. Tsunade can handle the aftereffects better.



> No, there are many other valid counter-arguments to your contention.


 Sure, but that arguement you are making is more advanced that just laughing off medical jutsu without getting into any of this.


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## Veracity (May 27, 2015)

I don't actually think physiological damage wouldn't work well. She broke free of her blood trauma mid battle. That's insane . Enough for me to believe visions of Dan and Nawaki wouldn't bother her much.


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## Sadgoob (May 27, 2015)

Itachi's Amaterasu instantly incinerated through fireproof flesh twice (the toad intestines, and Sasuke's CS2 wing.) Tsunade's feats aren't sufficient to survive that. She also can't dodge the Totsuka.​


Reznor said:


> But he failed to resist it. He didn't have Uchiha blood and his normal sharingan failed to block the effects.
> P2 Sasuke was actually able to resist it. That's different.



Your interpreting "resist" inaccurately here. Itachi's statement to Kakashi was: "if one has a Sharingan, one can resist [this technique] to  extent." He's saying _partial_ resistance is a factor. 

If you recall: Kisame marveled that Kakashi was _alive_ after the jutsu. The implication being that without resistance Tsukuyomi can kill someone instantly. Tsunade has no resistance.​


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## Bloo (May 27, 2015)

Reznor said:


> 1. Citation please.
> 
> 2. Well, Jounin w/ 4 I don't consider higher than Kage w/ 3.5. That's how I interpret databook.
> Also, Chakra Control was made into a big factor and Tsunade is leagues better.
> ...


1) surpass, pay attention to Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't just kill him in Tsukuyomi and Kisame's shock that Kakashi was still conscious.

2) That's not how databook works. Kakashi has a higher ranking in genjutsu than Tsunade because he's above her in that regard.

3) "Citation please" of Tsunade even dealing with genjutsu, let alone one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence.


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## Six (May 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I never stated that Itachi didn't improve his genjutsu.
> 
> If we want to be logical, Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu is compared to Itachi's 3T Genjutsu constantly and Hebi Sasuke's Sharingan Genjutsu matched Itachi's 3 Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu. I wouldn't be surprised if Kishi didn't pay attention to a detail like that or he was downright stupid as logic dictates that Itachi's genjutsu should've improved.



Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu is nowhere near Itachi's. First Sasuke's was a 4 compared to 5 not to mention the massive hype given to Itachi's undetectable genjutsu.

Fact is, as stated, you don't suddenly become a genjutsu type, you have to have been born one. Plus I don't see how it's stupid that an 11/13 year old can't improve his genjutsu when guy's like Minato died before their prime


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## Six (May 27, 2015)

Reznor said:


> 1. Citation please.
> 
> 2. Well, *Jounin w/ 4 I don't consider higher than Kage w/ 3.5.* That's how I interpret databook.
> Also, Chakra Control was made into a big factor and Tsunade is leagues better.
> ...


Wow, I guess since Itachi is technically a chunin his 5 is a .5 compared to Tsunade right? perfect logic.


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## UchihaX28 (May 28, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> Hebi Sasuke's genjutsu is nowhere near Itachi's. First Sasuke's was a 4 compared to 5 not to mention the massive hype given to Itachi's undetectable genjutsu.
> 
> Fact is, as stated, you don't suddenly become a genjutsu type, you have to have been born one. Plus I don't see how it's stupid that an 11/13 year old can't improve his genjutsu when guy's like Minato died before their prime



 Hebi Sasuke doesn't have MS genjutsu, Tsukyomi, and lacks versatility, but that doesn't refute the fact that his Sharingan Genjutsu's strength is comparable to Itachi's 3T Genjutsu.

 Sure, but improvement in genjutsu can mean a variety of things, including increased versatility and the ability to increase the length of their genjutsu. Improving the strength of the genjutsu doensn't have to fit that criteria, nor is it necessary for Itachi who can easily subdue anyone with a genjutsu, especially considering his ability to catch Kurenai in a genjutsu without her realizing it. It seems more important that Itachi would want to have higher versatility and increase the chance of a successful win via genjutsu rather than just improving his strength with genjutsu because let's be honest here, hardly anyone has a counter for Sharingan Genjutsu.

 So please, do me a favor and get your eloquent disdain out of here because it's not going to help you here.


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## Six (May 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hebi Sasuke doesn't have MS genjutsu, Tsukyomi, and lacks versatility, but that doesn't refute the fact that his Sharingan Genjutsu's strength is comparable to Itachi's 3T Genjutsu.
> 
> Sure, but improvement in genjutsu can mean a variety of things, including increased versatility and the ability to increase the length of their genjutsu. Improving the strength of the genjutsu doensn't have to fit that criteria, nor is it necessary for Itachi who can easily subdue anyone with a genjutsu, especially considering his ability to catch Kurenai in a genjutsu without her realizing it. It seems more important that Itachi would want to have higher versatility and increase the chance of a successful win via genjutsu rather than just improving his strength with genjutsu because let's be honest here, hardly anyone has a counter for Sharingan Genjutsu.
> 
> So please, do me a favor and get your eloquent disdain out of here because it's not going to help you here.



No just no, we are not talking about MS. itch's base genjutsu is leagues above Sasuke's. itchy was hyped by AO to having some of the trickiest and undetectable genjutsu skills. Itch's 3t genjutsju is enough to put S class ninja down in seconds, sasuke has never shown that type of power or skill in his. That 4 and 5 rating they both have may seem small but it is a giant gap. Not to mention the databook is concerned with base stats, so no sage or MS.

Not forgetting Itachi is one of the few s class ninja who never underestimates his opponents. So obviously he will have improved his power and versatility with the art.

No matter how you look at it, Itachi has been hyped alongside SHisui as the best genjutsu user(s) in the series.


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## Reznor (May 28, 2015)

> Your interpreting "resist" inaccurately here. Itachi's statement to Kakashi was: "if one has a Sharingan, one can resist [this technique] to some extent." He's saying partial resistance is a factor.
> 
> If you recall: Kisame marveled that Kakashi was alive after the jutsu. The implication being that without resistance Tsukuyomi can kill someone instantly. Tsunade has no resistance.


 Okay, I understand and see your point. I'm rereading what Itachi says, and I'm still unsure your interpretation is correct. He mentions Sharingan countering his genjutsu, but then he mentions his jutsu as being different. It seems to me that he's saying Sharingan w/ blood can counter other jutsu to some extent, but not Tsukiyomi. 

I'm open to the argument that Sharingan = half damage; that'd make sense. But that's not how I read it.

I'll assume for the time being that Kakashi took diminished effect, but how can you be sure that the full effect would be instant death? That's a bit of a leap.

Even if it is said to be instant death, you can't assume that this is still true among other big kids.

And also if this were true, Itachi wouldn't have had any reason to fear Jiraiya, and Madara could have beaten Hashirama. We haven't seen this instant death version and I don't see any reason to assume it.



> 1) then two, pay attention to Kakashi wondering why Itachi didn't just kill him in Tsukuyomi and Kisame's shock that Kakashi was still conscious.


 Well, Kakashi level opponents aren't frequently encountered. His surprise makes sense.

Itachi's intent was pretty unclear and retconny, so I'm not sure what to make of it, but it does seem that Kakashi and Kisame believed that it could have killed him.



> 2) That's not how databook works. Kakashi has a higher ranking in genjutsu than Tsunade because he's above her in that regard.


 I've been in this conversation too much to care to get back into it and don't feel like actually getting in to it, but the straight databook stats don't make much sense.

Gates, sharingan and other things give it a higher effective value, I believe general skill level does as well.



> 3) "Citation please" of Tsunade even dealing with genjutsu, let alone one of the most powerful genjutsu in existence.


 I said with the aftereffects, not with the genjutsu itself.


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

How is this 60 posts deep? What the actual fuck, this shouldn't even be debatable.





Hussain said:


> - What does being serious have to do with the speed she showed?
> _hole_
> Look at the distance between them in the first panel. She is not as slow as you people make her out to be, nor is itachi as fast as you make him out to be either.
> now here
> ...


By him toying with them, he wanted to test how strong they were compared to him. Tsunade caught a huge break/plot-shield via Dan coming back and visiting, otherwise, she would be the first to die.



Hussain said:


> - 1 trick pony or no. He has the power to cut through the Hachibi's horn, and he is far faster than the first 3 Hokages in term of shunshin. By that logic he will cut their heads off that easily. Cutting though a human's neck is much easier than cutting though the Hachibi's horn, no?
> 
> - Hashirama can use his Senjutsu before A can blitze? Also, A was 1 mm from Minato's head, so Tobirama who's slower won't have much time either.
> 
> So, as you can see, having more speed is not really everything. Otherwise, even KCM Narudo would have fodderstompped both Nagato and itachi before they know what happened to them, and so on.


I don't think so, saying so would imply that Hashirama was much slower than Madara, which obviously wasn't the case. It took less than a second for Hashirama to enter senjutsu, without any delay and much like Naruto did against the 3rd Raikage, Hashirama would do the same against A. 

Nagato had the Rin'negan and Itachi had the Mangekyou, that's two dojutsu level users, in essence, Nagato was a poor man's Edo Madara. Naruto's speed was the reason he was able to stay in the game.



Hussain said:


> - I am not ignoring anything. The Gokage defeated all of his jutsu, and he admitted that and said they are worthy of their title.
> 
> - Who said it can't be deflected exactly? Everyone and their mothers trolled that crap jutsu.
> - Yes, like she was not able to fight against 5 susanoos. Sure.


Umm, no he didn't, he just used Susano'o and when that didn't work, he just used a stronger Susano'o. He hardly touched any of his other dojutsu techniques like limbo. 

Yeah, but everyone that trolled that jutsu was far faster than she was, she's slow, she'd get caught by the jutsu.


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## Thunder (May 28, 2015)

Tsunade dominates in close-quarters (she as a five in Taijutsu and managed to punch Madara). And even a glancing blow would prove deadly to someone as frail as Itachi. She can create gigantic fissues in the ground to disturb Susano.

If Katsuyu spreads out on the battlefield Itachi has no where safe to run from Tsunade's onslaught. And a supercharged Katsuyu is big deal. 

Tsunade, medium difficulty.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Itachi has sharingan precog, he is alot faster and can activate Susano'o @ will. 
Tsunade isn't dominating shit. She runs into Totsuka and dies.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 28, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Because she'll perform a medical operation while in a coma lol.



Kastsuya can do it.  It treated the other kage while Tsunade was basically coma'd.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kastsuya can do it.  It treated the other kage while Tsunade was basically coma'd.



And Itachi watches the operation closely, giving Katusuyu tips.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 28, 2015)

It's not like it didn't cross my mind that the opponent right in front of her wouldn't approve of his opponent receiving battlefield treatment, but stating it's impossible is false.  I also thought briefly on the available options.  If Katsuya is on her shoulder, it just happens.  If there's a big slug, it can absorb her while the other Katsuya bother him during the aftershock of Tsukiyomi.  I also thought about if I could dismiss it as impossible by portrayal or narrative folly, because lol medical jutsu, and lol at arguing someone in a coma or two seconds away from coma can recover and win the fight.  

But Katsuya's place on the battlefield is to give support and protection and healing to units under hostile conditions.  Ones as hostile as a giant chakra eating tree that wants to kill everyone, as Juubi spawn assault everything that moves.  Itachi can still do stuff about that too, and things also turn out differently based on those choices, but that's beside the point, which is that the slug is an independent medic on the field.

It's not like I don't think about these things...  -b-baka.


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## Pocalypse (May 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's not like it didn't cross my mind that the opponent right in front of her wouldn't approve of his opponent receiving battlefield treatment, but stating it's impossible is false.  I also thought briefly on the available options.  If Katsuya is on her shoulder, it just happens.  If there's a big slug, it can absorb her while the other Katsuya bother him during the aftershock of Tsukiyomi.  I also thought about if I could dismiss it as impossible by portrayal or narrative folly, because lol medical jutsu, and lol at arguing someone in a coma or two seconds away from coma can recover and win the fight.
> 
> But Katsuya's place on the battlefield is to give support and protection and healing to units under hostile conditions.  Ones as hostile as a giant chakra eating tree that wants to kill everyone, as Juubi spawn assault everything that moves.  Itachi can still do stuff about that too, and things also turn out differently based on those choices, but that's beside the point, which is that the slug is an independent medic on the field.
> 
> It's not like I don't think about these things...  -b-baka.



Itachi will likely use Amaterasu on something as big as Katsuyu and if Katsuyu decides to split, the flames will be carried over to all the other clones. I don't see Katsuyu dodging Amaterasu either if she's too busy healing Tsunade mid-battle. Difference is, Madara wasn't there when Tsunade was in a coma, while Itachi will roast the slug or seal it up using Totsuka.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> It's not like it didn't cross my mind that the opponent right in front of her wouldn't approve of his opponent receiving battlefield treatment, but stating it's impossible is false.  I also thought briefly on the available options.  If Katsuya is on her shoulder, it just happens.  If there's a big slug, it can absorb her while the other Katsuya bother him during the aftershock of Tsukiyomi.  I also thought about if I could dismiss it as impossible by portrayal or narrative folly, because lol medical jutsu, and lol at arguing someone in a coma or two seconds away from coma can recover and win the fight.
> 
> But Katsuya's place on the battlefield is to give support and protection and healing to units under hostile conditions.  Ones as hostile as a giant chakra eating tree that wants to kill everyone, as Juubi spawn assault everything that moves.  Itachi can still do stuff about that too, and things also turn out differently based on those choices, but that's beside the point, which is that the slug is an independent medic on the field.
> 
> It's not like I don't think about these things...  -b-baka.



So you'r saying that Madara didn't defeat Gokage, since Katusuyu healed them and got them on their feat.

Unless Katsuyu has a jutsu that allows her to recover Tsunade instantly after she is hit by Tsukiyomi, then the fight is over @ that point.

I don't deny that Katsuyu can act as a healing support, but if we'r talking in terms of the span of a single fight, I doubt how useful she can be.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Reznor said:


> And also if this were true, Itachi wouldn't have had any reason to fear Jiraiya



I think Itachi's basis for saying that was not from fear.



Reznor said:


> and Madara could have beaten Hashirama.



Hashirama's a freak of nature. Plus Madara didn't show time manipulation.



Reznor said:


> We haven't seen this instant death version and I don't see any reason to assume it.



I'm simply pointing out Kisame's statement.


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## Reznor (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think Itachi's basis for saying that was not from fear.


What do you think it was then?
Why did Itachi believe he couldn't beat Jiraiya?


> Hashirama's a freak of nature. Plus Madara didn't show time manipulation.


Madara had Infinite Tsukiyomi, so I'm assuming he had Tsukiyomi.
But how can Hashirama have survived? Why couldn't Madara beat him?



> I'm simply pointing out Kisame's statement.


 That's understandable. I guess I'm not willing to assume instant death is instant death against absolutely anyone.

Jiraiya is able to beat Itachi without the sharigan.
Hashirama is able to beat Madara with "Senju" being his only excuse, of which Tsunade has to a lesser degree.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Reznor said:


> What do you think it was then?
> Why did Itachi believe he couldn't beat Jiraiya?



I think he told Kisame that in order to avoid engagement with Konoha's most valuable ally. I think given the feats of Itachi, Kisame, and Jiraiya, it's unlikely Itachi feared Jiraiya.​


Reznor said:


> Madara had Infinite Tsukiyomi, so I'm assuming he had Tsukiyomi. But how can Hashirama have survived? Why couldn't Madara beat him?



Obito said Itachi's Tsukuyomi was _special_ because of the time manipulation aspect. Hashirama was also born with Kurama-level chakra and a natural Byakugo-regenerating body.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Itachi didn't fear Jiraiya. He never acted like it. If he truly feared Jiraiya, he wouldn't pretend like he didn't even exist.


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## Thunder (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has sharingan precog, he is alot faster and can activate Susano'o @ will.
> Tsunade isn't dominating shit. She runs into Totsuka and dies.



Supercharged acid melts Susano. It's not an element, so Yata Mirror can't stop it with its protective elemental enchantments.


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## Bloo (May 28, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Tsunade dominates in close-quarters (she as a five in Taijutsu and managed to punch Madara). And even a glancing blow would prove deadly to someone as frail as Itachi. She can create gigantic fissues in the ground to disturb Susano.


Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, Itachi has a 5 in that regard (1.5 difference). Itachi has a 4.5 in taijutsu, Tsunade has a 5 (0.5 difference). Itachi also has Sharingan precognition. Tsunade isn't hitting shit.



> If Katsuyu spreads out on the battlefield Itachi has no where safe to run from Tsunade's onslaught. And a supercharged Katsuyu is big deal.


Amaterasu will handle that handedly.



> Tsunade, medium difficulty.


Itachi takes it with less than medium difficulty after a successful use of genjutsu and a blitz resulting in Tsunade's head being severed.


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Supercharged acid melts Susano. It's not an element, so Yata Mirror can't stop it with its protective elemental enchantments.



Mei's acid didn't do jack to V2 Susano'o. Who said Itachi even needs yata ?


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## LostSelf (May 28, 2015)

Nobody powerscales like Tsunade. She does that even after the manga ended .


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## RBL (May 28, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nobody powerscales like Tsunade. She does that even after the manga ended .



Tsunade keeps getting stronger even if the mangaka quit writting about her.

Tsunade fans, you can't beat them


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## Bloo (May 28, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nobody powerscales like Tsunade. She does that even after the manga ended .


If you're talking about aging, then yes, you're right. If you're not, then I don't see what you're talking about.


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## Reznor (May 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I think he told Kisame that in order to avoid engagement with Konoha's most valuable ally. I think given the feats of Itachi, Kisame, and Jiraiya, it's unlikely Itachi feared Jiraiya.​


 I guess that's possible. None of that made any sense, before or after retcon, so I won't really dispute most interpretations of that.

I didn't take it that way even after Part 2, so I personally don't see it that way.



> Obito said Itachi's Tsukuyomi was _special_ because of the time manipulation aspect. Hashirama was also born with Kurama-level chakra and a natural Byakugo-regenerating body.​Though not to his extent, Tsunade possesses high chakra and her seal contains an absurd amount and has Byakugo.
> 
> She has a similar rationale working in her favor.


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## Thunder (May 28, 2015)

Bloo said:


> Tsunade has a 3.5 in speed, Itachi has a 5 in that regard (1.5 difference). Itachi has a 4.5 in taijutsu, Tsunade has a 5 (0.5 difference). Itachi also has Sharingan precognition. Tsunade isn't hitting shit.



Well, that 3.5 stat doesn't take Byakugō enhancements into account. And she punched Madara. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Mei's acid didn't do jack to V2 Susano'o. Who said Itachi even needs yata ?



_Supercharged_ acid bro. Itachi will need to rely on his full arsenal here.


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## LostSelf (May 28, 2015)

Bloo said:


> If you're talking about aging, then yes, you're right. If you're not, then I don't see what you're talking about.



I mean that months ago, even after the manga ended, you wouldn't see more than one person saying Tsunade beats Itachi.

But now she does, Katsuyu this, etc. That was just a bad joke.


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## UchihaX28 (May 28, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> No just no, we are not talking about MS. itch's base genjutsu is leagues above Sasuke's. itchy was hyped by AO to having some of the trickiest and undetectable genjutsu skills. Itch's 3t genjutsju is enough to put S class ninja down in seconds, sasuke has never shown that type of power or skill in his. That 4 and 5 rating they both have may seem small but it is a giant gap. Not to mention the databook is concerned with base stats, so no sage or MS.



 What you're doing is making baseless claims.

 Why wouldn't we include the MS here?

 Why is Itachi's 3T Genjutsu stronger than Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu?

 Itachi's Genjutsu being hyped by AO doesn't refer to a genjutsu's strength, but the person's ability and skill in executing genjutsu. That's what also places Itachi above Sasuke, but their Sharingan Genjutsu's strength is relatively the same.

 Itachi's 3T Genjutsu took down a featless Deidara and a Young Orochimaru who had no knowledge or experience dealing with his genjutsu. It's already been established by both those S-Rank ninja that his genjutsu was very similar to Itachi's and their fight certainly displays that Sasuke easily matched Itachi's 3T Genjutsu to the point where Itachi felt like Tsukyomi was necessary to push him to his limits.

 Okay. Hiruzen also has a 5 in Genjutsu yet he's featless when we compare him to the Sharingan.

 That 4 and 5 has no indication of Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu's strength relative to Itachi's for reasons I've already stated.

 So in that case, we can just exclude the 3 Tomoe Sharingan correct?



> Not forgetting Itachi is one of the few s class ninja who never underestimates his opponents. So obviously he will have improved his power and versatility with the art.



 I never said he wasn't more skilled and versatile with his genjutsu. He clearly is. What I'm debating is that Hebi Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu = Itachi's 3T Genjutsu * in strength. *



> No matter how you look at it, Itachi has been hyped alongside SHisui as the best genjutsu user(s) in the series.



 Because of Tsukyomi which alters the perception of time.

 Shisui's 3T Genjutsu is featless and is only known for Kotoamatsukami, but luckily, I'm only comparing Itachi and Sasuke's 3T Genjutsu here.


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## Pocalypse (May 28, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Nobody powerscales like Tsunade. She does that even after the manga ended .



I was surprised, Tsunade's one of the last characters I'd see that would get hyped to such levels 

It's like, she's immune from everything. Nothing beats her.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So you'r saying that Madara didn't defeat Gokage, since Katusuyu healed them and got them on their feat.
> 
> Unless Katsuyu has a jutsu that allows her to recover Tsunade instantly after she is hit by Tsukiyomi, then the fight is over @ that point.
> 
> I don't deny that Katsuyu can act as a healing support, but if we'r talking in terms of the span of a single fight, I doubt how useful she can be.



I didn't say that.

I don't know if it can or how long it would take.

I don't know how useful it would be healing mental damage mid-combat either.



> I don't deny that Katsuyu can act as a healing support



This is the only point I care to make.



> Itachi will likely use Amaterasu on something as big as Katsuyu and if Katsuyu decides to split, the flames will be carried over to all the other clones. I don't see Katsuyu dodging Amaterasu either if she's too busy healing Tsunade mid-battle. Difference is, Madara wasn't there when Tsunade was in a coma, while Itachi will roast the slug or seal it up using Totsuka.



Yeah, this is where I stopped wanting to think about it.  For some reason Itachi didn't stab and seal the whole hydra and Orochimaru, and waited for him to reveal himself.  The consensus has generally been that if Orochimaru stayed hidden, he wouldn't have gotten sealed like a fool.  Personally, I don't know why or if that means anything, or know if that's true.  The Juubi shunted the part of itself that was on fire.  Katsuya could do that too, so it wouldn't hit every dividing part.  If the slug is divided already, Itachi has to stab each of them, or spin around lighting up the whole field with ameterasu, and that's dumb.

What he could do that would work and make sense is stab the one that absorbs her and seal them both immediately, so long as did it isn't too big.  But this has already become a fight that sort of dumb to think about.  I prefer to think about situations where one of the characters isn't already hit with a trump card.  I would rather say that if Itachi were to use a doujutsu, he would use his perceptive genius to correctly choose Ameterasu over Tsukiyomi and avoid the issue.


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## Six (May 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> What you're doing is making baseless claims.
> 
> Why wouldn't we include the MS here?
> 
> ...


How are my claims baseless?

We're not including MS because we're talking about base sharingan.

So according to your logic, a person can be hyped up to be very good at something yet not have as much strength? So exactly what is the clear difference between strength and skill then because I am completely lost. Plus please provide us with proof that Itachi's sharingan genjutsu equals  Sasukes sharing genjutsu. I hope you don't bring up scans from their fight because that fight where Itachi held back for Sauce would be an extremely weak argument.

Featless Deidara. SMh last time I checked, when he beat Deidara, Deidara was an S class rogue ninja, you think you get that from being equal in strength to an academy student?
Young Orochimaru? Last time I checked, Itachi was 11/13 at their fight and Oro is far from young. In part 1 he was 50-51 years old and if we go back 8 years he was 42/43 if we go back 10 years he was 40/41. I don't see where you're getting young from especially when you compare it to Itachi's 4-6 years of ninja experience your argument is extremely weak. Not to mention the man was likely at his prime and lived through a damn war. Dude's been a shinbone for longer than Itachi has been alive so don't come at me with that weak argument.

No Deidara was reminded by Sasukes eyes of his  2 second loss to Itachi, he made no comment of his gents level compared to Itachi. He just stated how he hates those eyes.Oh really?
Only argument of substance you have is that of Oro, and he said, it's just like that time, due to the fact he was using the same genjutsu Itachi used on him all those years. Lets not forget this is a vulnerable ritual Oro unlike the one who fought Itachi(unless you can provide scans showing he as in the same condition when he fought Itachi as he was against Sauce)

Can't believe you're using a fight where Itachi held back the entire time with absolutely 0 intent to kill versus Sasukes extreme bloodlust. In fact Sasuke didn't even kill him that fight, Itachi had succumb to his own disease. Unless of course you think despite him holding back, he was trying to kill him with his genjutsu.

Hiruzen has a 5 in genjutsu, so we know he is a master at it both practicing and dispelling but we don't know the degree. Oro has a 5 yet was stomped.

What? It has no relevance to Sasuke's strength? All the stats in the datebook indicate a persons strengths and weaknesses. You're not making any sense at all. Go ahead and ask anybody on this forum what datebook stats indicate.

So, no Hebi Sauce's genjutsu is not equal to Itachi's in strength or whatever parameter you want to judge it with. You may have an argument for current Sauce, but not Hebi.

I guess that 2.5 Itachi has in the databook is no indication of Itachi's stamina if we're going to go by your logic right?

*Spoiler*: __ 






 
*Spoiler*: __


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## Bloo (May 28, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Well, that 3.5 stat doesn't take Byakugō enhancements into account. And she punched Madara.


Yes, Madara tried to desperately to avoid being hit by her, it's evident with all the standing still that he's doing:
Oh really?


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Well, that 3.5 stat doesn't take Byakugō enhancements into account. And she punched Madara.


Itachi would dance circles around her with that stat, Kakashi was basically a 4.5 in part 1, when he fought Itachi and with the sharingan he was keeping but barely, I shudder to think what would happen to someone without a sharingan and still being slower than Kakashi.


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## LostSelf (May 28, 2015)

Thunder is trolling you all, guys.


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## UchihaX28 (May 28, 2015)

Law Trafalgar said:


> How are my claims baseless?
> 
> We're not including MS because we're talking about base sharingan.


 
 You claiming Itachi having a 5 while Sasuke has a 4 in Genjutsu could very well be because of the MS. That's why I brought it up.



> So according to your logic, a person can be hyped up to be very good at something yet not have as much strength? So exactly what is the clear difference between strength and skill then because I am completely lost. Plus please provide us with proof that Itachi's sharingan genjutsu equals  Sasukes sharing genjutsu. I hope you don't bring up scans from their fight because that fight where Itachi held back for Sauce would be an extremely weak argument.


 Sharingan Genjutsu is already strong as it is, so I'm not sure why you're putting words in my mouth?

 Skill has to do with versatility, the execution of the genjutsu (as in, the ability to catch someone in a genjutsu without them even perceiving it), and also timing. Itachi has shown superiority over Sasuke in that regard which easily bumps him up 2 tiers compared to Sasuke.

 I'll provide scans later, but Orochimaru stated it during the ritual and Deidara did as well after Deidara's Massive C4.

 Itachi also attempted to push Sasuke to his limits. Clearly, 3 Tomoe Sharingan Genjutsu did no such thing from what the fight displayed.



> Featless Deidara. SMh last time I checked, when he beat Deidara, Deidara was an S class rogue ninja, you think you get that from being equal in strength to an academy student?
> Young Orochimaru? Last time I checked, Itachi was 11/13 at their fight and Oro is far from young. In part 1 he was 50-51 years old and if we go back 8 years he was 42/43 if we go back 10 years he was 40/41. I don't see where you're getting young from especially when you compare it to Itachi's 4-6 years of ninja experience your argument is extremely weak. Not to mention the man was likely at his prime and lived through a damn war. Dude's been a shinbone for longer than Itachi has been alive so don't come at me with that weak argument.


 Yes, he certainly was featless and received no hype at the time for his skills besides having a unique ability. From what Deidara displayed against Itachi was pathetic and he had no knowledge or experience dealing with Sharingan Genjutsu or just that dojutsu in general, so he obviously was susceptible to genjutsu which doesn't prove your point.

 Yes, and there's no reason he didn't improve in Genjutsu to combat the Sharingan. After all, he managed to break through Sasuke's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu which was stated to be similar to Itachi's in a weakened state while Young Orochimaru was paralyzed (partially anyways) in a healthier condition. I merely used the term Young to differentiate between the 2 Orochimarus.

 Really? Prove that Orochimaru had knowledge or experience dealing with 3 Tomoe Genjutsu.



> No Deidara was reminded by Sasukes eyes of his  2 second loss to Itachi, he made no comment of his gents level compared to Itachi. He just stated how he hates those eyes.Oh really?


 Oh really?

 Also understand the context of that statement. Since it was used as a way to emphasize Sasuke's capabilities with genjutsu to combat Itachi, it's reasonable to interpret it as Sasuke's Genjutsu rivaling Itachi's.



> Only argument of substance you have is that of Oro, and he said, it's just like that time, due to the fact he was using the same genjutsu Itachi used on him all those years. Lets not forget this is a vulnerable ritual Oro unlike the one who fought Itachi(unless you can provide scans showing he as in the same condition when he fought Itachi as he was against Sauce)


 You just proved my point.

 Sasuke used the same genjutsu Itachi did. 

 Orochimaru improved his capabilities of dealing with Sharingan Genjutsu. 



> Can't believe you're using a fight where Itachi held back the entire time with absolutely 0 intent to kill versus Sasukes extreme bloodlust. In fact Sasuke didn't even kill him that fight, Itachi had succumb to his own disease. Unless of course you think despite him holding back, he was trying to kill him with his genjutsu.


 Not this shit again. 

 Holding back doesn't indicate that Sasuke would've been able to overpower Sasuke in a 3 Tomoe Genjutsu. Obito merely stated that he would've died had Itachi been serious, that's no indication of whether or not Itachi could beat Hebi Sasuke with his 3 Tomoe, especially once we factor in his Cursed Seal Enhancements unless you can prove that he can.

 The rest is irrelevant.



> Hiruzen has a 5 in genjutsu, so we know he is a master at it both practicing and dispelling but we don't know the degree. Oro has a 5 yet was stomped.


 Orochimaru was never stomped by Sharingan Genjutsu. Only Young Orochimaru was.

 No, we actually don't know how proficient Hiruzen was with Genjutsu as he's featless. 



> What? It has no relevance to Sasuke's strength? All the stats in the datebook indicate a persons strengths and weaknesses. You're not making any sense at all. Go ahead and ask anybody on this forum what datebook stats indicate.


 Well, thanks for completely bullshitting and misinterpreting what I said.

 What I argued was that there is more to the Genjutsu stat than just the strength of the genjutsu. You have not refuted it, therefore I win. 



> So, no Hebi Sauce's genjutsu is not equal to Itachi's in strength or whatever parameter you want to judge it with. You may have an argument for current Sauce, but not Hebi.


 With both of their 3 Tomoe Genjutsu's as Kishimoto displayed during 2 previous fights, Itachi and Sasuke's along with Zetsu's emphasis on Sasuke's 3 Tomoe Sharingan, yes, it certainly does. You have not formulated an argument for why the the gap between Sasuke and Itachi in the Databook would only indicate a difference in the strength of their 3 Tomoe Genjutsu as there is more to the Genjutsu stat than just the strength of their Genjutsu.



> I guess that 2.5 Itachi has in the databook is no indication of Itachi's stamina if we're going to go by your logic right?
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


 

 <snip>


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

I believe the statistics do not account for power-ups and/or extra buffs (e.g. sharingan, senjutsu and etc.) They are supposed to be in base.


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## meadie (May 28, 2015)

Itachi probably can't take down Katsuyu,so probably Tsunade can take care of this....


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

meadie said:


> Itachi probably can't take down Katsuyu,so probably Tsunade can take care of this....


Katsuyu gets sealed into Totsuka.


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## UchihaX28 (May 28, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I believe the statistics do not account for power-ups and/or extra buffs (e.g. sharingan, senjutsu and etc.) They are supposed to be in base.



 That's why it's a difficult thing to argue that Databook includes the 3 Tomoe Sharingan and not the MS. If it truly only includes Base (excluding any form of Sharingan), then the other guy's argument falls apart which is honestly fine by me.


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

I made that mistake earlier when I first joined, I always thought it included the power-ups but I was told otherwise by multiple members on many different sites. It makes sense too, because some of the characters have especially unique abilities and are rated far too low on the scale. 

For instance, I believe they have Kisame and Kakuzu in a tie, but it doesn't account for Samehada and definitely doesn't count for Kakuzu's threads. With Samehada and in the pool, Kisame's break roof tier on pretty much everything. Without he's still at tie with Part 1 Kakashi in terms of speed.


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## UchihaX28 (May 28, 2015)

I personally always included the Sharingan, but even if it did include Base Sharingan and not the MS, it still doesn't destroy my argument.

 But if it truly excludes any form of Sharingan, well then, damn.


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## Six (May 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> You claiming Itachi having a 5 while Sasuke has a 4 in Genjutsu could very well be because of the MS. That's why I brought it up.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Umm databook stats indicate base, non powered stats.

You are only encouraging my point, if an individual can be craft with a technique, then it is a strength for them. Itachi is the craftiest genjutsu user shown on panel. What are you talking about with regards to strength? Ability to break out of it? Please elaborate. Unless you can prove that Sasuke's genjutsu are harder to break out of, your claim is pointless. You are probably the only person on this forum that thinks Sasuke is equal to in strength in genjutsu with Itachi. I bet Turrin or Hussain wouldn't say that.

Please show the scan where Oro said Sasuke and Itachi's genjutsu were exactly the same strength.
If you read properly, he's commenting that it's like the last time due to the fact that they used the same exact genjutsu Oh really?
He said "This is just like that time" not "the same exact power" or anything hinting that. In fact if you look at the time Itachi did it, you can tell he was trembling trying to break out Oh really? yet when Sasuuke does it, he seems just fine.

You're ignoring my point, regardless of his experience with a sharing. He was an S class rogue ninja, you don't get that from being a weakling, you think every fight in the ninja world is one with full intel? No, stop trying to back up your argument with the fact that he had zero intel. Anybody who has never met another person in battle is susceptible to that persons unknown abilities, just look at Hidan. 
Oh yeah, please show me the scan where he says Sasuke's sharingan is the same in strength as Itachi's. Last I checked he said he doesn't fall for the same trick twice.

please explain what "strength" in genjutsu for Sasuke is.

You keep saying young or as if he were Naruto's age. No the man is a good 30 years older and has a shit ton more experience in battle especially in war. Sharing genjutsu is tricky, but at the end of the day it's still genjtusu. You think that paralysis genjusu itachi used was the only paralysis just to exist? What about the tree genjutsu Kurenai tried to bind Itachi?
The strength of Itachi's genjutsu rendered even the self inflicting pain method useless when he fought or.

I didn't prove anything you said, I showed a scan of Oro struggling to get out of a paralysis genjutsu when used by an 11/13 year old Itachi while he got out of sashes with no visible problems.

You're only making my point easier, you said Obito stated if Itachi had been serious Sauce would be dead. So do you think he was using serious gents? Or was that the only part of the fight where he had full intent to kill?

Curse mode level 2 Sauce, isn't doing shit to Itachi?

Yes Hiruzen is featless in Genjutsu but we know he has a mastery of it due to his stat in it. The degree of mastery compared to Itachi, Tayuya and Oro is unknown. Not to mention he was able to track the Homage through the infinite darkness just so I would say he's fearless.

Databook stats indicate the strengths and weaknesses of peoples ninja ability plain and simple. Go and ask anybody else on the forum.

There you go with 40 year old and 5o year old Oro.

*Spoiler*: __


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## Ryuzaki (May 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I personally always included the Sharingan, but even if it did include Base Sharingan and not the MS, it still doesn't destroy my argument.
> 
> But if it truly excludes any form of Sharingan, well then, damn.


Yeah because it would not be a fair comparison to everyone else who doesn't have it right? I think they would need a reaction speed category and base speed category in order to properly ascertain their true standings. Stratifying it like that would probably reveal better results.


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## Sadgoob (May 28, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I believe the statistics do not account for power-ups and/or extra buffs (e.g. sharingan, senjutsu and etc.) They are supposed to be in base.



This is correct, and seen clearly with Hebi Sasuke and Deidara. They both have 4.5 speed/reactions but because of the Sharingan boost, Deidara can only just barely keep up with Sasuke.​


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## meadie (May 29, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Katsuyu gets sealed into Totsuka.



I still believe she can take him down..


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## Six (May 29, 2015)

meadie said:


> I still believe she can take him down..



You truly believe that a slug can take down one of the greatest uchiha, and one of the most talented ninja to ever live?


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## Reznor (May 29, 2015)

If an Orochimaru snake can escape, so can most of Katsuya.


Law Trafalgar said:


> You truly believe that a slug can take down one of the greatest uchiha, and one of the most talented ninja to ever live?


Noone said Katsuya could beat Madara.


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## Hamaru (May 29, 2015)

What would stop Itachi from just sealing the Boss Summon?


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## Reznor (May 29, 2015)

It didn't seal all of Orochimaru. A snake got away (it got burned up later by stray Ameratsu flames.) For all we know, Orochimaru could have gotten more pieces away but was trying to be subtle, but we won't assume this.

This means that Katsuya could be able to easily get a bulk of herself away.


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## Puppetry (May 29, 2015)

Katsuyu's ability to divide (an _effective_ counter to the Totsuka blade) as well as Tsunade's ability to summon more from Shikkotsurin.

Edit: Ninja'd.


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## Mercurial (May 29, 2015)

And so what? Itachi just spreads Amaterasu. Katsuyu it's not a hindrance to Itachi in any way. Itachi is way faster, smarter and more versatile than Tsunade, and even if he has low chakra he can definitely end the fight very quickly. The second he wants to.


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## Hand Banana (May 29, 2015)

Something is not right with this thread. I remember this discussion happening more than two days ago while also missing out a huge chunk of arguments. Did a mod do something like merge?


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## Puppetry (May 29, 2015)

Such a harmless summon sure does seem to be taking several high-level techniques to eradicate.


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## Cord (May 29, 2015)

Kai said:


> Tsunade either succumbs to Amaterasu or the Totsuka blade; Medical ninjutsu is hopeless against inextinguishable black flames, and it's also hopeless against a sword that seals victims within an eternal genjutsu.
> 
> Itachi is faster in reflexes and jutsu execution, allowing him almost full liberty to get his jutsu off against Tsunade successfully while Tsunade has to rely on evasion and healing for damage compensation. Those aren't options for her against Amaterasu and Totsuka.



Kai pretty much summed up my thoughts and others have already mentioned all possible reasons needed to justify how Itachi wins this.

Katusyu is really the only thing that could take up most of his strength. Although I would argue that Amaterasu should do well enough to deal with her, especially if there has already been enough time for the flames to spread all over the area. Even if we assume that Katsuyu splits herself a thousand times, that still isn't going to guarantee that those flames would fail to follow even her miniature versions and spare her from being incessantly incinerated if the remnant of Orochimaru's white snake, post-Hebi Sasuke fight, is anything to go by. If that fails, then I don't see what those surviving mini versions of Katsuyu can do to Itachi either. 

By virtue of feats and portrayal and with or without Katsuyu, Itachi is well above Tsunade's tier. I'm quite surprised that isn't the consensus here.


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## Ryuzaki (May 29, 2015)

Luna Lovegood said:


> Kai pretty much summed up my thoughts and others have already mentioned all possible reasons needed to justify how Itachi wins this.
> 
> Katusyu is really the only thing that could take up most of his strength. Although I would argue that Amaterasu should do well enough to deal with her, especially if there has already been enough time for the flames to spread all over the area. Even if we assume that Katsuyu splits herself a thousand times, that still isn't going to guarantee that those flames would fail to follow even her miniature versions and spare her from being incessantly incinerated if the remnant of Orochimaru's white snake, post-Hebi Sasuke fight, is anything to go by. If that fails, then I don't see what those surviving mini versrion sof Katsuyu can do to Itachi either.
> 
> By virtue of feats and portrayal and with or without Katsuyu, Itachi is well above Tsunade's tier. I'm quite surprised that isn't the consensus here.



Basically this, not to mention an overwhelming speed gap, to boot. People tend to forget but Itachi essentially solo'd 3-4 summons that belong to Nagato, when he was assisting Naruto and Killer Bee, with pinpoint accuracy with shuriken/kunai.


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