# Minato vs MS Obito - Rematch



## Itachі (Jan 8, 2016)

*Location:* Manga

*Distance:* Manga

*Mindset:* IC 

*Knowledge:* Full

This is Adult Obito, how does he fare against Minato this time?


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## Bonly (Jan 8, 2016)

That's a GG folks


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## Itachі (Jan 8, 2016)

Hiraishin mark is restricted lads


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## Arles Celes (Jan 8, 2016)

In theory Obito should have grown stronger in 17 years. Also he now knows better how Minato's FTG fully works.

On the other hand he is now marked so he may end up in a disadvantage especially if he actually did not know that a FTG mark stays forever...

If he doesn't know then he loses fast. If he knows then he tries to figure out a way to get rid of the seal before challenging Minato to a fight.


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## Lord Aizen (Jan 8, 2016)

With minato having full knowledge Obito gets smoked even faster than before. The only reason obito looked like he was on minatos level was because minato had no knowledge on his abilities. Obito doesn't have a move that can touch minato, the speed or reflexes to do it either. All he's good at is using kamui. Minato could sit back, create multiple shadow clones to handle obito and use the time to enter sage mode. His clones will throw shirukens everywhere and can handle obito alone Once minato comes in with sage mode, obito is getting out smarted and outmaneuvered.


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## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito looses just like last time 

Just remember that was minato with 1 kunai 

No clones were used 

SM retcon wasn't used . Frog katas would be a bitch to deal with since obito can't see it 

Minato spams 30+ kunai ensuring obito never actually does anything useful


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## KeyofMiracles (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito didn't get anything that'd let him win. He may be faster than he was then, but Minato is still faster than him in literally every area regardless of his increase in power. Minato kills him.


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## Arles Celes (Jan 8, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> With minato having full knowledge Obito gets smoked even faster than before. The only reason obito looked like he was on minatos level was because minato had no knowledge on his abilities. Obito doesn't have a move that can touch minato, the speed or reflexes to do it either. All he's good at is using kamui. Minato could sit back, create multiple shadow clones to handle obito and use the time to enter sage mode. His clones will throw shirukens everywhere and eventually tag obito. Once obito is tagged it's done, minato comes in with sage mode, out smarting and outmaneuvering obito.



Though tbh Obito didn't know about FTG level 2 either back then. 

And during the war Obito had shown capable of dealing with multiple speedsters including KCM Naruto with Kamui alone.

Tagging Obito is very hard unless one outsmarts him or uses the other kamui eye against him. After all he does not show any sign regarding his appearance when he is intangible. And he can stay in intangibility mode non stop for 5 minutes...and recharge it wherever he stops using it for a moment. He might use countless fake attacks against Minato like he did when he fought Fu and Torune. It will be close to impossible to predict when he will actually become tangible and attack for real.


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## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> Though tbh Obito didn't know about FTG level 2 either back then.
> 
> And during the war Obito had shown capable of dealing with multiple speedsters including KCM Naruto with Kamui alone.
> 
> Tagging Obito is very hard unless one outsmarts him or uses the other kamui eye against him. After all he does not show any sign regarding his appearance when he is intangible. And he can stay in intangibility mode non stop for 5 minutes...and recharge it wherever he stops using it for a moment. He might use countless fake attacks against Minato like he did when he fought Fu and Torune. It will be close to impossible to predict when he will actually become tangible and attack for real.



Similarly minato can use countless fake attacks 

He got clones 

Marks everywhere 

Clone hirashin swapping 

Retcon frog katas 

Obito would have a harder time predicting minato than the other way around for the simple reason that minato is simply faster 

Gotta remember thanks to hirashin a fly like SM Naruto could rasengan juubito 

hirashin in itself is unfairly hax. obito outside kamui wrapping minato has nothing remotely fast enough to be troublesome


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## Kai (Jan 8, 2016)

It goes either way IMO. Actually with Izanagi I would give the nod to Obito winning this.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito with full knowledge, refined abilities and without needing to rush the battle should win imo. He can play it safe and simply exhaust Minato by forcing constant Hiraishin usage. Plus Izanagi to further improve his chances. Still a very close battle.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 8, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Obito with full knowledge, refined abilities and without needing to rush the battle should win imo. He can play it safe and simply exhaust Minato by forcing constant Hiraishin usage. Plus Izanagi to further improve his chances. Still a very close battle.



1. Full knowledge works both ways. If he forces constant hiraishin usage, Minato forces him to stay intangible for over 5 minutes. Which one do you think happens first, the 5 minute time limit or Minato running out of chakra?
2. Minato is a sensor with full knowledge, the benefit of izanagi is negated here. He can't surprise him and loses an eye in the process


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## Icegaze (Jan 8, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> 1. Full knowledge works both ways. If he forces constant hiraishin usage, Minato forces him to stay intangible for over 5 minutes. Which one do you think happens first, the 5 minute time limit or Minato running out of chakra?
> 2. Minato is a sensor with full knowledge, the benefit of izanagi is negated here. He can't surprise him and loses an eye in the process



Gotta agree with this 

Since when would 5 mins of hirashin exhaust minato who fought a war without the enemy knowing what he looked like because of that very same jutsu 

Imma go ahead and say obito runs out of steam first then dies very quickly


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito wins the rematch.

1 - He has full knowledge, so he won't get blindsided.
2 - He has displayed better tactics as an adult.
3 - He has Izanagi. He can most definitely catch Minato offguard with that.
4 - If the physical and reaction feats of Rinnegan Obito isn't a product of Rinnegan alone, it is safe to assume that he is more reflexive and faster as well.

I'd say he'd defeat Minato more often times than not.


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## Amol (Jan 8, 2016)

Minato should still win.
With one glance Minato had landed like three things on Obito(Rasengan, Contract Seal, Hiraishin Seal) without Obito knowing about later two.
He was effectually unscathed in that battle.
And really about 10(or even 5) Minato clones  FTGing around Obito is more than enough to tag him.
Once that happens it is gg.


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito should win with Izanagi, once Minato kills him he'll just spawn behind him to mortally wound him [1] or release a Bakufu Ranbu [2] to destroy his marks and weapons in the area, and it becomes easier at that point.

Izanagi may or may not remove the mark if Minato happens to implement it on him when he wounds Obito initially. Won't matter either way, he'll be in a losing situation after the first respawn.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 8, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Obito should win with Izanagi, once Minato kills him he'll just spawn behind him to mortally wound him [1] or release a Bakufu Ranbu [2] to destroy his marks and weapons in the area, and it becomes easier at that point.
> 
> Izanagi may or may not remove the mark if Minato happens to implement it on him when he wounds Obito initially. Won't matter either way, he'll be in a losing situation after the first respawn.



And Minato is going to expecting him to respawn so he can kill him a second time. He is a sensor too, so Obito is not going to surprise him


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## DaVizWiz (Jan 8, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> And Minato is going to expecting him to respawn so he can kill him a second time. He is a sensor too, so Obito is not going to surprise him


Why would he expect a respawn?

Oh damn, full knowledge.

Yeah I'll have to change it to Minato. Bunshins or summon to guard backside, he outlasts Izanagi by moving between warp points (marked locations, thrown weapons, dug-in weapons, bunshin, summons).

I doubt Minato will even bother killing Obito, all that does is open a blindside against him, and it's not like Danzo where he's using 10 different variants and can stop using them if you're not keep pressure on him, he's only using one Izanagi over a 5 minute span so keeping any pressure on him at all is not required, in fact it's the opposite of what someone should do.


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## Sorin (Jan 8, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Why would he expect a respawn?
> 
> Oh damn, full knowledge.
> 
> ...



Yeah with full knowledge, Izanagi is almost useless against Minato. It's good for one respawn. After that, to use izanagi to its full potential, he has to suicide like hell and go full attacking mode and hope he gets his hands on Minato in the 5 minute interval that he has. Otherwise he loses an eye and he's fucked. 

Though he can then use his kamui eye for izanagi as well. But the same risks remain and doubt that he'll use the kamui eye for that to even begin with. 

But yeah, Minato with full knowledge on Izanagi can dance around it with ease. It doesn't make much of a difference here.


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## Eliyua23 (Jan 8, 2016)

Unless Obito gets a Rinnegan or Juubi Jin prowess he gets his shit kicked in by Minato


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Is this simply Pre-War Arc Obito, or are we allowed to apply War Arc Obito's feats into this?


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## StarWanderer (Jan 8, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Is this simply Pre-War Arc Obito, or are we allowed to apply War Arc Obito's feats into this?



Rinnegan doesnt give any kind of precognition, or speed boost. In terms of overall speed, War Arc Rinnegan Obito = Pre War Arc MS Shippuden Obito.

Minato gets killed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Rinnegan doesnt give any kind of precognition, or speed boost. In terms of overall speed, War Arc Rinnegan Obito = Pre War Arc MS Shippuden Obito.
> 
> Minato gets killed.



 Personally, I think the Rikudou Chakra Obito received from the Rinnegan enhanced him physically.


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## ARGUS (Jan 8, 2016)

Obito is still slower than Minato. 
minato now has intel on kamui, and can use clones to further exploit his jutsu. 

he shits on him again


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## Kyu (Jan 8, 2016)

Minato puts him down like a dog.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Minato puts him down like a dog.



 And then Obito bites the fuck out of Minato.


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## Kyu (Jan 8, 2016)

That'll be hard to pull off as a corpse.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 8, 2016)

Kyu said:


> That'll be hard to pull off as a corpse.



 That's what Obito wants him to see in his genjutsu.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Personally, I think the Rikudou Chakra Obito received from the Rinnegan enhanced him physically.



Edo Madara had Rikudou's chakra yet there was no speed/reflexes boost, judging from his performance against Edo Hashirama.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Minato puts him down like a dog.



He could put teenager Obito down like a dog. 

This is adult Obito. The one who fought KCM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai at the same time.

If the Hiraishin mark is restricted, Obito kills him.


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Is this simply Pre-War Arc Obito, or are we allowed to apply War Arc Obito's feats into this?



It's MS Obito but I think that many of Rinnegan Obito's feats apply here, yeah.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Love starwanderer argument it's hilarious 

He put him down like a dog with no effort and 1 kunai 

This whole obito improved therefore he beats minato who barely tried and murked Him is BS

KCM Naruto isn't faster or as fast as minato , nor are kakashi and Gai 

They have to use combos to land a hit . Minato having mark close to you ignores all that 

Then again Minato didn't use his retcon SM or clones 

Minato kills rinnegan obito if he fails to use his rinnegan powers


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

KCM Naruto is most of cases one cut below Ei in reflexes and speed and so goes for taijutsu , add clones and his KCM got even weaker than before . Even base Gai performed better than him against Obito .

That means KCM Naruto<<<Minato whom striking speed and reflees above V2 Ei (accordng to feats) not even talking about FTG .


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## StarWanderer (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Love starwanderer argument it's hilarious
> 
> He put him down like a dog with no effort and 1 kunai
> 
> ...



With no effort? That's why Obito got him in chains. That's why Obito almost got him in Kamui. Because Minato beat him with "no effort". 

In terms of physical movement speed? Yes, they are. Better feats. Especially Gai. 

Adult Obito kills Minato.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

The masked man was already adult Obito .


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

got him in chains which did nothing 

Sure thing 
Guess obito getting floored in 2 moves means he put up a fight 

U can keep repeating urself 

Most agree with me so am done with ur troll


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## Kyu (Jan 9, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> He could put teenager Obito down like a dog.
> 
> This is adult Obito. The one who fought KCM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai at the same time.
> 
> If the Hiraishin mark is restricted, Obito kills him.



16 years of looming in and out of damp caves didn't elevate him from below Minato to above Nardo, Kakashi, Bee, and Gai.

KCM/BM Naruto is unarguably stronger than MS Obito. That in of itself spells out he got as far as he did with them due to being a bad match-up - in addition to the team's lack of intel on how to approach defensive Kamui in the beginning.

Minato's got full knowledge(rendering an Izanagi blindside _highly_ improbable), can _teleport _ into Obito's blind spot, and strikes fast enough to pose a serious threat before Kamui's dematerialization occurs. 

Obito enjoys a pumpkin-sized Rasengan drilled into his cranium.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 9, 2016)

Kyu said:


> 16 years of looming in and out of damp caves didn't elevate him from below Minato to above Nardo, Kakashi, Bee, and Gai.



Then how did he go from Chuunin level to the level that gave Minato trouble while doing exactly the same thing for one year ?


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

I don't think Minato's taking him down as easily as people are suggesting, Minato trashed a version of Obito that made retarded decisions. Obito tried to Kamui Minato and admitted that he could have done it faster, Obito had knowledge on Hiraishin and didn't even consider the possibility of Minato warping to his kunai, Obito tried to trap Minato with fucking _chains_ and Obito also fucking stood there like a moron after he just took a Rasengan in his back. 

Here Obito has full knowledge on Minato and he's a lot more experienced and smarter, I'm not saying that Minato doesn't win but he's definitely not stomping him.


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## Rocky (Jan 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then how did he go from Chuunin level to the level that gave Minato trouble while doing exactly the same thing for one year ?



He got MS. And a became a plant cyborg. And Madara taught him all these crazy jutsu forbidden jutsu and stuff.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

if one is going to hype obito based on experience he got years later please remember this 

the years later obito kamui could be intercepted by juudara 70m 

minato got in juudara face from a similar distance before juudara could stop him from crossing that distance

so if we are going to say obito chains touched minato when he was using 1 kunai, and he has improved therefore now he is sure to win

please note: getting in juudara face>>>>>>>>>>anything a non juubi obito has done

unless u think handling KCM Naruto+kakashi +base gai >>> actually coming close to touching juudara 

if so please match up MS obito against juudara ...and poll it lets see if he comes close to touching juudara

in this match up minato has access to more kunai, clones, SM

obito improvement simply cant cover that. considering hirashin>>>>>>>kamui in speed meaning obito cant actually successfully land a hit


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 9, 2016)

Rocky said:


> He got MS. And a became a plant cyborg. And Madara taught him all these crazy jutsu forbidden jutsu and stuff.


He didn't use any crazy forbidden jutsu against Minato. Zetsu Goo allows him to replace missing body parts, so in combat it isn't that big of a factor, and didn't factor in against Minato. That leaves us with his MS.

If you gave Konohomaru Kamui, would he be able to attain a similar level without mentally or physical improving ? 

Even if you assume that Obito did nothing but loomed inside his cave, he couldn't have stopped the process of growing into an adult. Which would at least be a big improvement mentally when you consider that Obito is the Naruto type, not the Itachi type. 
Combine the cumulative experience and knowledge, adult Obito and teenager Obito are two different people(I can confirm this as a 30+ year old).

Again, assuming that he did absolutely nothing in 16 years and completely ignoring the increase in physical capabilities which are a part of growing up, which doesn't make any sense.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

how about itachi who at 13 was already stronger than oro, yet somehow 10 years later he isn't at madara level or anywhere close

obito had MS thus had no reason to improve his KG. MS users improve rapidly then stop as it isn't a learned skill but an inherited one

what reason would obito have had to improve, at 14 or how ever old he was he was already >>>>>>>>>>>> 90% of Narutoverse

itachi by 13 already had all his MS jutsu. why didn't he learn more jutsu? no need to

non inherited skills will improve over the years most likely, genetic ones after a short time there is nothing to improve on 

since really no MS user actually figured out their jutsu or learned it, it more or less just happened when they needed it to. then they could control it

not the same as A who could have improved on his speed etc

@Grimm since when does age help with sharingan prediction and reaction? his skill quickly achieved a level where there is no need to improve on.


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Itachi is a poor example because of his illness and his knowledge on the damage that using MS Jutsu can cause to him. Plus, he pretty much only lived for Sasuke, he had no interest in acquiring more power. I think his usage of techniques and his intelligence would have improved though.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi is a poor example because of his illness and his knowledge on the damage that using MS Jutsu can cause to him. Plus, he pretty much only lived for Sasuke, he had no interest in acquiring more power. I think his usage of techniques and his intelligence would have improved though.



which wouldn't help since his kamui didn't get any faster. he lost a speed battle which is the only battle he can engage in with minato 

getting smarter is good

considering he got beat by 1 kunai to the back of his head quickly

I hope he got smarter cuz in this match up there could be 30+ kunai, SM, clones

we know his kamui speed didn't improve since in war arc hirashin was still easily faster


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> which wouldn't help since his kamui didn't get any faster. he lost a speed battle which is the only battle he can engage in with minato
> 
> getting smarter is good
> 
> ...



I agree that his Kamui speed didn't get any faster. Obito certainly got smarter.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

how does being smarter help him 

here?

give shikamaru kamui would he beat minato? simply because he got more brain power?


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## Itachі (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> how does being smarter help him
> 
> here?
> 
> give shikamaru kamui would he beat minato? simply because he got more brain power?



Are you saying that intelligence is completely irrelevant? It's not like Minato is so much more powerful that intelligence doesn't make a difference.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> how about itachi who at 13 was already stronger than oro, yet somehow 10 years later he isn't at madara level or anywhere close
> [


I don't think anyone here suggests that Obito improved dramatically. I am only suggesting a minor improvement.

And Like I already mentioned, Itachi was a natural born genius, a prodigy. 
Obito wasn't. Itachi had the capability of thinking like a hokage @ the age of 7. Obito didn't have that mindset when he was 30. 
You shouldn't compare him to Itachi in that regard.

Even Kakashi improved after his 20's. Hell, one could argue that Kakashi's strongest incarnation is his war arc counter part, before he lost his MS, not the one from 16 years ago.



> @Grimm since when does age help with sharingan prediction and reaction? his skill quickly achieved a level where there is no need to improve on.



Kamui is a supplemetary technique. Its success heavily depends on timing and strategy. 
Even if we assume that teenager Obito and Adult Obito have the exact same reaction speed, which means he never trained or fought or practiced in 16 years, he still has displayed better mental game as an adult. 
Better mental game + full knowledge is enough to defeat Minato imo or at least makes this an even fight. 
Izanagi ensures his win.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Are you saying that intelligence is completely irrelevant? It's not like Minato is so much more powerful that intelligence doesn't make a difference.



in this case it doesn't

minato is simply a lot faster

and what they are fighting here is a battle of speed

the same way yondaime raikage could be the smarter than god it wont help him beat minato ever


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think anyone here suggests that Obito improved dramatically. I am only suggesting a minor improvement.
> 
> And Like I already mentioned, Itachi was a natural born genius, a prodigy.
> Obito wasn't. Itachi had the capability of thinking like a hokage @ the age of 7. Obito didn't have that mindset when he was 30.
> ...



a supplementary technique inherited fro specific eyes

all jutsu depend on timing and strategy

wouldn't help him here because minato is horribly faster 

1) minato can get in juudara face casually

obito cant even use kamui to get away from 70m from the same juudara. ask yourself this, if juudara at 70m attacked minato could he get away?

the answer is yes very casually

his reaction speed has improved but is it better than minato's? got no reason to believe it is

obito reaction speed would have to be so much better since kamui is a lot slower than hirashin

minato has knowledge on izanagi here and is a sensor, how he gets blindsided by something he expects is beyond me


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## Kai (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> a supplementary technique inherited fro specific eyes
> 
> all jutsu depend on timing and strategy
> 
> ...


You want to compare Kamui phasing/touch and Hiraishin, which is more accurate. Obito never tried to self absorb himself into the Kamui dimension when he fought Minato.

Because when you compare apples and apples:


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## hbcaptain (Jan 9, 2016)

Minato wins with full knowledge , he loses with no knowledge due to Izanagi .


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Kai said:


> You want to compare Kamui phasing/touch and Hiraishin, which is more accurate. Obito never tried to self absorb himself into the Kamui dimension when he fought Minato.
> 
> Because when you compare apples and apples:





How does phasing help obito absorb minato 

I am referring to his kamui wrap speed since that's the only thing that can hurt minato 

And that's much slower than hirashin 

Obito can phase through all he wants . His attack speed is too slow to catch minato 

While minato is not only faster , obito can't see retcon frog katas coming his way


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## Turrin (Jan 9, 2016)

Minato only beat Obito the first time, because of circumstance, didn't allow Obito to take his time against Minato, forcing him into a speed contest, which of course the Yellow-Flash bested him in. Under normal circumstance Minato wouldn't be able to predict when Obito is going to become tangible, and Obito could take his time exhausting Minato, and even use Izanagi if necessary. Likely Minato would have lost that fight under neutral circumstances, which is why Minato considered Obito so powerful and thought only his son with the bequeathed power of the Demon-Fox could beat him.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

ps: minato will always know when obito phases btw

Fuu noticed obito chakra signature disappears when he phases through, if you go back to the danzo fight

so if obito phases through minato would know . which seriously impedes on obito ability to surprise attack him

KCM Naruto also noticed the same thing, when he lost track of obito, he could sense obito once obito solidified to attack him


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> ps: minato will always know when obito phases btw
> 
> Fuu noticed obito chakra signature disappears when he phases through, if you go back to the danzo fight



 Phasing happens nearly instantaneously and is difficult to detect. Juubidara didn't even perceive his phasing.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Phasing happens nearly instantaneously and is difficult to detect. Juubidara didn't even perceive his phasing.



Fuu did

unless u are claiming he didn't

Naruto did as well

its not so much as sensing it the instant he phases but more when he solidifies 2 different sensors in the manga so far have been able to pick up on that

not that phasing would help him much anywayz, his attack speed is still too slow to hit minato 

when we have seen that hirashin is twice as fast as kamui, 

yes self wrap is slower than wrapping someone however not twice as slow

hirashin>kamui in speed...obito cant win


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 9, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> a supplementary technique inherited fro specific eyes
> 
> all jutsu depend on timing and strategy
> 
> ...


Minato isn't horribly faster. It was more of a split second difference that gave Minato the upperhand if anything.

Minato also never fought Madara 1v1. Minato snuck in a Kunai when Madara's attention was on something else. And Minato got his shit literally torn apart as soon as he emerged from it. 

Same Madara that ripped SM Minato's arm off and kicked him and his arm(performing 3 consecutive actions) before he can react, failed to grab Obito from a closer distance.


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## Icegaze (Jan 9, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Minato isn't horribly faster. It was more of a split second difference that gave Minato the upperhand if anything.
> 
> Minato also never fought Madara 1v1. Minato snuck in a Kunai when Madara's attention was on something else. And Minato got his shit literally torn apart as soon as he emerged from it.
> 
> Same Madara that ripped SM Minato's arm off and kicked him and his arm(performing 3 consecutive actions) before he can react, failed to grab Obito from a closer distance.



minato reacted to a blindside attack with no knowledge mid kamui wrap. how did that work out for obito when put in an even better situation moments later. he got floored 

snuck? minato threw the kunai at madara....while madara was looking at them.. its not the wall goes up the minato magically curves his kunai above the sand wall

minato threw the kunai and attacked, makes no sense to put the wall up and have minato curve his kunai around the sand wall

though if that happened, its worse as madara didn't even see the kunai trajectory 

yes obito phased through, not saying obito cant phase through, he will always be able to

the problem he has here is his kamui wrapping minato is much slower than minato ability to use hirashin therefore obito simply cannot beat him 

all obito would do is stall

what point is phasing consistently if when you attempt landing an attack you are too slow to pull it off


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## ARGUS (Jan 9, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Rinnegan doesnt give any kind of precognition, or speed boost. In terms of overall speed, War Arc Rinnegan Obito = Pre War Arc MS Shippuden Obito.
> 
> Minato gets killed.



completely illogical to assume that. based on obitos own statement


''its chakra and eye power is so strong, he almost lost himself'' 

stronger chakra allows the user to gain better speed, and it vastly enhances them physically 
just how KN4 Naruto is far faster than Base naruto. 


Obito went from being tagged by Konan and Fuu/TOrune to being able to match KCM naruto, Bee and Guy 
he definitely got a speed boost.


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## StarWanderer (Jan 10, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> completely illogical to assume that. based on obitos own statement
> 
> 
> ''its chakra and eye power is so strong, he almost lost himself''
> ...



That's not always so. There were shinobi with huge chakra reserves, with realy strong chakra, but everage speed when compared to some of the top-tiers. 

The only chakra that for sure amps speed is a senjutsu-chakra.

As for the Rinnegan, the chakra allowed Obito to use 6 Paths of Pein even stronger than those of Nagato and Gedo Mazou. He got more chakra and could use more jutsu. Rinnegan gave him a great power boost. 

But not a speed boost.

As for Konan tagging him - it was because he sucked her paper bombs realising that they are in fact explosive tags while already sucking them in.

As for Fuu/Torune situation - as i remember, he himself touched Torune... Am i right?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 10, 2016)

Kyu said:


> 16 years of looming in and out of damp caves didn't elevate him from below Minato to above Nardo, Kakashi, Bee, and Gai.
> 
> KCM/BM Naruto is unarguably stronger than MS Obito. That in of itself spells out he got as far as he did with them due to being a bad match-up - in addition to the team's lack of intel on how to approach defensive Kamui in the beginning.
> 
> ...



Obto would have sucked KCM Naruto into Kamui if not for Kakashi and Gai, and BM Naruto >>> base Minato by a huge margin.

Minato doesnt possess striking speed fast enough to hit adult Obito. The Obito he fought was young. He wasnt at the same level he was at when he was adult, during Shippuden and War Arc. 

This Obito kills Minato.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Lol MS obito moves that were read by fu and Torune

The same obito couldn't even beat both without loosing an arm 

Minato murders all non juubi versions of minato


----------



## Rocky (Jan 10, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> This Obito kills Minato.



Obito cannot kill Minato. His Kamui is too slow, Izanagi is out as blindsiding has already failed, virtually none of his supplementary jutsu are quick enough to matter, and the only one that is can be redirected elsewhere. Ftg being instantaneous allows Minato to dodge attacks and deliver counter-attacks simultaneously, which spells doom for a fighter that relies on that normally not being possible. He will never beat Minato by relying on Kamui.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol MS obito moves that were read by fu and Torune
> 
> The same obito couldn't even beat both without loosing an arm
> 
> Minato murders all non juubi versions of minato



Obito needs to touch his target in order to absorb it. 

Torune's body was covered with those nano-sized bugs before that attack.

Obito touched him, sacrifising his own arm which he obviously didnt care about. 

How's that reading Obito's movements is beyond me. Obito would have sucked him easily, without losing his arm, if not for those bugs. 

Minato gets killed.



> Obito cannot kill Minato. His Kamui is too slow, Izanagi is out as blindsiding has already failed, virtually none of his supplementary jutsu are quick enough to matter, and the only one that is can be redirected elsewhere. Ftg being instantaneous allows Minato to dodge attacks and deliver counter-attacks simultaneously, which spells doom for a fighter that relies on that normally not being possible. He will never beat Minato by relying on Kamui.



With his reflexes, stamina and movement speed - yes, he can. Minato has no way of killing him if adult Obito is not marked. Because Minato simply lacks the striking speed to win this fight.

As i wrote before, this Obito kills Minato.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 10, 2016)




----------



## Rocky (Jan 10, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> With his reflexes, stamina and movement speed - yes, he can. Minato has no way of killing him if adult Obito is not marked. Because Minato simply lacks the striking speed to win this fight.



Striking speed is irrelevant when Minato has Hirashin. Unless Obito never engages Minato ? in which case it's a stalemate ? then he loses.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Lol star you killing your own case 

He must physically touch minato to kamui him which means there is an excessive amount of time for minato to hirashin away casually


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> minato reacted to a blindside attack with no knowledge mid kamui wrap. how did that work out for obito when put in an even better situation moments later. he got floored
> 
> snuck? minato threw the kunai at madara....while madara was looking at them.. its not the wall goes up the minato magically curves his kunai above the sand wall
> 
> ...



Even if you think Madara saw the Kunai cominng, then he probably didn't care. Because we know that he is fast enough to perform 3 actions 2 of which were used directly on Minato before Minato can react from a close distance. 

So I don't see the point of that argument. 

We know for a fact that in the heat of the combat, Madara can rip Minato's arm off before Minato can do anything.



> yes obito phased through, not saying obito cant phase through, he will always be able to
> 
> the problem he has here is his kamui wrapping minato is much slower than minato ability to use hirashin therefore obito simply cannot beat him
> 
> ...



I agree that Kamui is too slow to warp Minato unless Minato is caught preoccupied or some shit. 
Obito can't win a clash between Hirashin and Kamui.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

@grimm
Then we are in agreement 

No point debating minato wins 

Obito can't preoccupy him with something else here


----------



## StarWanderer (Jan 10, 2016)

Which he didnt expect at all from someone who doesnt even possessed MS at that moment. There was a conversation between them, not a fight.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

In any case we have fuu and Torune being able to react to obito 

1 mistake touch and minato wins the fight casually since he will mark obito

When we have the likes of Konan coming up with a plan to hit obito . Full knowledge helps minato here a lot


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## hbcaptain (Jan 10, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Which he didnt expect at all from someone who doesnt even possessed MS at that moment. There was a conversation between them, not a fight.


Same goes for Minato against V2 Ei , he didn't expect his Shunshin and moves would be that fast , but even so he was able to move faster than him and launch the Kunai in the right time :

That means Minato>>MS Obito in reflexes and moves speed .


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> @grimm
> Then we are in agreement
> 
> No point debating minato wins
> ...



We aren't in agreement on that.

Obito can simply wear Minato down bit by bit and catch him offguard with Izanagi.
The thing is, when Izanagi is active, Obito doesn't need to worry about getting tagged with a mark as the mark will dissapear everytime he respawns. He has two options, trade hits or catch Minato offguard with Izanagi spawn.

I think Obito wins most of the time with high dif.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> We aren't in agreement on that.
> 
> Obito can simply wear Minato down bit by bit and catch him offguard with Izanagi.
> The thing is, when Izanagi is active, Obito doesn't need to worry about getting tagged with a mark as the mark will dissapear everytime he respawns. He has two options, trade hits or catch Minato offguard with Izanagi spawn.
> ...



How is he wearing minato down ? U think minato would get exhausted from using hirashin ?

Despite being able to wrap kyuubi which is 100 times his size . Means at the very least minato has 100+ hirashin'S he can use 

You have no proof the mark will disappear everytime he respawns 

Also 1 touch and minato chakra is connected to obito's izanagi doesn't change his chakra signature 

Izanagi spawn is also abit baseless in the sense where yes it's stated 5 mins of immortality 

But does that actually mean , he can die 100000 in those 5 mins 

Cuz everytime Danzo died an eye closed .


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Despite being able to wrap kyuubi which is 100 times his size . Means at the very least minato has 100+ hirashin'S he can use


FTG isn't about the lenght but the volume , Full Kurama=millions of Minato => Minato has to use humain-FTG millions of times before he starts beeing exhausted .


----------



## Kyu (Jan 10, 2016)

> Minato doesnt possess striking speed fast enough to hit adult Obito.



Bullshit.

He teleported out, gave A enough time to process what happened, yet RCM A still wasn't fast enough to evade Minato's attack. 

The moment Obito lunges while activating Kamui, he's vulnerable. As an adult, he's retained this weakness.



> The Obito he fought was young. He wasnt at the same level he was at when he was adult, during Shippuden and War Arc.



He improved so much _Konan_ blew his fucking arm off, since he couldn't phase out completely before she set off her explosives.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How is he wearing minato down ? U think minato would get exhausted from using hirashin ?
> 
> Despite being able to wrap kyuubi which is 100 times his size . Means at the very least minato has 100+ hirashin'S he can use
> 
> ...



Well, when Obito used Izanagi against Konan, the mark was clearly removed, and that's why
Minato did not use it to slash Obito on top of the Juubi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> How is he wearing minato down ? U think minato would get exhausted from using hirashin ?


Eventually yes. 
Exhaustion can also come from physical activity, as chakra is only one part of stamina.
Otherwise Gai or lee would never get tired.



> Despite being able to wrap kyuubi which is 100 times his size . Means at the very least minato has 100+ hirashin'S he can use


I really don't know the math behind it, so I rather not get into it.



> You have no proof the mark will disappear everytime he respawns


Izanagi turns anything that happens during the time it is "active" into genjutsu. So anything that happens to Obito during the time Izanagi is active is moot.



> Also 1 touch and minato chakra is connected to obito's izanagi doesn't change his chakra signature


Irrelevant. 


> Izanagi spawn is also abit baseless in the sense where yes it's stated 5 mins of immortality
> 
> But does that actually mean , he can die 100000 in those 5 mins



He doesn't have to. During those 5 minutes he can be agressive without needing to worry about being tagged.


> Cuz everytime Danzo died an eye closed .


No.
An eye closed every 1 minute. Thats how Danzo's Izanagi worked.


----------



## hbcaptain (Jan 10, 2016)

FTG=physical activity  .


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

> Grimmjowsensei said:
> 
> 
> > Eventually yes.
> ...


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> > what physical activity we are talking about hirashin here. he isn't physically moving.
> >
> > also double standards much, how about obito physical activity. coupled with the fact that his kamui is less spammable and more exhausting to obito. than hirashin is to minato
> >
> ...


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Fuu did
> 
> unless u are claiming he didn't



 And he literally toyed with him. In the midst of combat, he couldn't even perceive when he phased and Obito literally one-paneled the duo when he was actually serious.



> Naruto did as well



 You mean after Obito had half of his body slipping through the rock and standing right there enabling KCM Naruto to actually see him? 



> its not so much as sensing it the instant he phases but more when he solidifies 2 different sensors in the manga so far have been able to pick up on that



 The problem is is that when Minato attempts to strike Obito and he phases, he's simply not going to have ample time to react as he's going to have to readjust his body before Obito solidifies.



> not that phasing would help him much anywayz, his attack speed is still too slow to hit minato



 He literally trashed KCM Naruto. 



> when we have seen that hirashin is twice as fast as kamui,
> 
> yes self wrap is slower than wrapping someone however not twice as slow
> 
> hirashin>kamui in speed...obito cant win



 You're funny, no we haven't.

 Let's look at the panels, shall we.

 This is Minato in response to Juubidara's attack:

 Link removed

 What's this, can't even warp away Minato? 

 This is Obito in response to Juubidara's Attack:

 Link removed
 Link removed

 What's this, Obito actually phases through Juubidara's Attack?

 Kamui >> HIraishin. 

 You keep providing examples of those who are proficient sensors, but that shouldn't apply to Minato when he himself couldn't perceive when Obito was using Kamui. He literally ran through Obito and would've gotten pulled in if he didn't have Hiraishin. Sensing Obito's Kamui isn't as easy as you'd think.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

@uchiha

 
Kamui wrap is slower than hirahsin 

Minato doesn't need to readjust his body to escape that slow ass attack he simply uses hirashin to get away 

Considering he did the same thing to TSB which is >>>>kamui wrap


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Nice rebuttal. I think I solo neg-diffed your argument.


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Nice rebuttal. I think I solo neg-diffed your argument.





Your delusion is understable 

I pity you 

Kishi however doesn't . Sadly hirashin >>> kamui wrap has been shown more than once in the manga 

Obito ain't wrapping minato when minato can hirashin away at any time for the fun of it


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Okay, I wasn't debating whether or not Kamui warp was faster than Hiraishin in the first place.

 I still can't comprehend how you believe Hiraishin is better than Kamui when Kakashi and Minato both conceded and confirmed that Kamui was a superior S/T ninjutsu than Hiraishin was.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Kk so why quote my post 

If it isn't faster he simply can't win 

Since minato got auto escape tech called hirashin 

He will always get away from a close range kamui wrap . Can't be helped


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## Rocky (Jan 10, 2016)

Kamui is superior to Hiraishin because it doesn't require a tag to use, not because of its speed.


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kamui is superior to Hiraishin because it doesn't require a tag to use, not because of its speed.



 Which means faster preparation time thus making it more useful in combat.

 In a fight like this, it's especially helpful when Obito can simply phase through Minato, making any attempt of tagging him useless.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Wasn't useless last time though


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Wasn't useless last time though



 That was against Young Obito.

 Trying applying Adult Obito into the situation who is far more experienced and lacks any sort of time-constraint meaning that he's not going to attempt to rush the fight. Obito was merely caught off-guard by the fact that he had used his Kunai and warped in the midst of combat rather than using Hiraishin to warp to a specific location, but he has complete knowledge here, so that won't happen.

 Obito's Kamui usage as shown against Juubidara is simply more practical because it's simply harder to predict and can be activated without any sort of preparation whereas Minato has to prepare the technique which leads to the off-chance that his opponent does predict where he's going to warp. It's essentially the reason why Juubidara was caught off-guard by Sasuke's Ameno because there was literally no way of preempting it.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

lol young and old have the same jutsu 

Hirashin is still faster regardless of obito age


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 10, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> lol young and old have the same jutsu
> 
> Hirashin is still faster regardless of obito age



 Yet Adult Obito is more experienced, has better perception, and can apply Kamui in the midst of combat far better than he did when he was Younger.

 Hiraishin is faster than mostly anything, so I don't get what your point is.


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## Rocky (Jan 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Which means faster preparation time thus making it more useful in combat.



Useful? That depends on what you want to do. 



UchihaX28 said:


> In a fight like this, it's especially helpful when Obito can simply phase through Minato, making any attempt of tagging him useless.



Uh, sure. There's still nothing Obito can do to overcome Minato's ability to disappear and attack at the same time because of his instantaneous relocation technique. That takes a dump on Obito's fighting style.


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## Icegaze (Jan 10, 2016)

Point is obito only method of attack neither has the speed or range to tag minato 

So better perception and all the rest is nice and cute and than kk God he does 

That prevents him from loosing to 1 measley kunai this time 

Doesn't suddenly mean he will be able to win 

When he lost casually to minato using about 10% of his ability 

no clone , no SM, 1 kunai 

Minato using clones alone will give obito trouble . He can just go to the hokage mountain and chill


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## StarWanderer (Jan 11, 2016)

> In any case we have fuu and Torune being able to react to obito



No we dont. They have never reacted to him. Obito effortlessly stomped them both. And the reason Obito lost his arm was Torune's body covered by nano-bugs. Obito simply sacrifised his zetsu arm.



> 1 mistake touch and minato wins the fight casually since he will mark obito



Good luck marking adult MS Obito, who's reflexes and striking speed are higher than those of Minato.



> When we have the likes of Konan coming up with a plan to hit obito . Full knowledge helps minato here a lot



Minato doesnt have Konan's jutsus.



> Same goes for Minato against V2 Ei , he didn't expect his Shunshin and moves would be that fast , but even so he was able to move faster than him and launch the Kunai in the right time :



The thing with Sasuke's Amaterasu is the same as the thing with BM Naruto hitting Rinnegan Obito with Rassengan. Your stupid example has nothing to do with this thread. Because Minato knew Ei was fast. 



Also, that was young teenager Ei, who has no feats at all. You still have to prove young Ei => Shippuden/War Arc Raikage Ei.



> That means Minato>>MS Obito in reflexes and moves speed .



That means nothing, as far as this thread goes.


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2016)

You actually have to prove war arc A is faster , since that clearly wasn't stated

And A brought up minato when Naruto dodged his fastest punch 

No mention of how did u dodge it , I have gotten even faster 

Lol in any case , obito reactions can be whatever u want them to be . His attack would always be slower than TSB which has already come in contact with minato 

In war arc we also have hirashin speed still shitting all over kamui 

So dream on buddy 

Young obito and young A is your fan fic 

If there was an obvious increase in power like when obito got the rinnegan that would have been mentioned which it was 

No mention , no improvement significant enough for kishi to inform the reader 

The guy has no issues mentioning onoki speed increase , kakashi better usage of MS , sasuke massive improvement over time skip 

But somehow he hates A and obito so much he refuses to mention they have improved 

Yh Dream on


----------



## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2016)

Ps: there is such a thing as reaching your maximum potential 

I don't buy this idea that A got faster . A person even fictional can only improve so much based on their natural ability . Sure Aizen in bleach got a nice quote on that 

Point does stand though , because a person natural reflex cannot go beyond their limit 

Boosting it with a jutsu achieves that but since A didn't learn anytbing new and uses the same shroud it's not unreasonable to suggest he didn't improve his speed 

And if he did , no basis to claim by how much 

Without making foolish assumptions such as A would have been tagged by Amaterasu when he was younger 

No proof to say he would have been 

We do have the guy running in a straight line yet dissapearing from minato LOS 

I don't see how that's less impressive than running a full circle around new MS sasuke 

Considering only 1 of those 2 is hyped for godlike reactions

The only claim anyone has for A case is Karin mentioned bijuu chakra levels 

That could simply mean A could fight for longer periods of time at that speed vs an increase in speed . There is only so much chakra one can pour into any jutsu 

Naruto got more chakra than minato yet his rasengan aren't galaxy size by comparison . Why not just pour all his chakra into 1 rasengan and make it the size of kyuubi 

same way A cannot pour all his chakra into 1 shunshin . 

As for obito . Well kishi had no issues mentioning rinnegan overwhelming power and chakra following through obito , MS obito however did not do anything kid obito would have had an issue doing 

If anything the ramping kid who supplemented his fighting with moukton was actually better


----------



## Arles Celes (Jan 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kamui is superior to Hiraishin because it doesn't require a tag to use, not because of its speed.



The intangibility activation seems pretty much instant.

Teleportation itself is not as Konan and Juudara could stop him midway despite having trouble with his intangibility.


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2016)

Intangibility is certainly quicker than hirashin 

However obito reactions aren't better than minato 's 

Even if obito can phase through its moot since he cannot attack minato while solid without exposing himself to a counter attack 

Since his attack speed is simply slower than minato and more predictable 

Minato attack can be joined with clones , SM ( frog katas which obito can't see ) and all other variations of hirashin 

All I'll say is a juubi Jin had issues swatting flies away because of hirashin 

Think about the fact that SM naruto could land a hit on juubito 

Yet BSM who is >>>>>>>>>>SM Naruto helped by EMS sasuke who is >>>>>>>> SM Naruto had troubles keeping up with juubito 

Even 2 against 1 they couldn't land a clean hit on him


----------



## UchihaX28 (Jan 11, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Useful? That depends on what you want to do.



 It does, but in actual combat? Certainly Kamui. It's what enabled Obito to fend off against BM Naruto, Gai, BM Bee, and MS Kakashi.

 The best Hiraishin enabled Minato to do was fend off V2 Raikage and Bee, but even then, Minato relied on subduing B to subdue Raikage which failed because Young B literally intercepted him.




> Uh, sure. There's still nothing Obito can do to overcome Minato's ability to disappear and attack at the same time because of his instantaneous relocation technique. That takes a dump on Obito's fighting style.



 Obito's fighting style enabled him to practically one-panel KCM Naruto, the one Raikage confirmed as Minato's superior and managed to fend off BM Naruto, MS Kakashi, BM Bee, and Gai for an extended period of time.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Jan 11, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> Though tbh Obito didn't know about FTG level 2 either back then.
> 
> And during the war Obito had shown capable of dealing with multiple speedsters including KCM Naruto with Kamui alone.
> 
> Tagging Obito is very hard unless one outsmarts him or uses the other kamui eye against him. After all he does not show any sign regarding his appearance when he is intangible. And he can stay in intangibility mode non stop for 5 minutes...and recharge it wherever he stops using it for a moment. He might use countless fake attacks against Minato like he did when he fought Fu and Torune. It will be close to impossible to predict when he will actually become tangible and attack for real.



it may be difficult but minato has the skills and intelligence to tag minato. With sage mode its guaranteed to happen.


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## Icegaze (Jan 12, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It does, but in actual combat? Certainly Kamui. It's what enabled Obito to fend off against BM Naruto, Gai, BM Bee, and MS Kakashi.
> 
> The best Hiraishin enabled Minato to do was fend off V2 Raikage and Bee, but even then, Minato relied on subduing B to subdue Raikage which failed because Young B literally intercepted him.
> 
> ...



Base Gai 

BM Naruto 

MS kakashi 

Bee barely participated 

now considering even BM Naruto isn't faster than minato and so far has only been compared 

I see no reason why hirashin can't replicate what obito did 

Considering KCM Naruto fought for most of it without using any speed worth mentioning . 

the gross combination of all their attacks is still slower than what A did or juubito point blank attack which minato didn't get split in half from


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 12, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Base Gai
> 
> BM Naruto
> 
> ...



 That's false. Bee did participate. He's what protect BM Naruto from his stakes and enabled BM Naruto to form his Bijuudama to force Obito to move to the other dimension.



> now considering even BM Naruto isn't faster than minato and so far has only been compared



 KCM Naruto was compared to Minato's Hiraishin. BM Naruto's even faster.



> I see no reason why hirashin can't replicate what obito did



 Because with extensive knowledge on the technique, Minato's Hiraishin isn't going to be useful. Hiraishin relies on the element of surprise, but that's mitigated when Minato's reflexes don't allow him to place any tags or Kunais in areas that the team won't detect. Hell, with B and Kakashi providing extra support when necessary, there's no way Minato's going to blindside any of them. 

 With Obito's Kamui, it cannot be perceived, at least by this specific team. It doesn't require tags, meaning there's absolutely no indication of when he's going to use Kamui, so he can easily lure his opponents into attacking him and essentially counterattack after his opponents are thrown off their feet which is essentially what he did to counter KCM Naruto's feint. Since Kamui can be used at his leisure and has instantaneous prep, it makes it an overall superior ability to use in this situation as opposed to Minato's Hiraishin.



> Considering KCM Naruto fought for most of it without using any speed worth mentioning.



 His fight against Sandaime Raikage and Mu were a testament to his speed. 



> the gross combination of all their attacks is still slower than what A did or juubito point blank attack which minato didn't get split in half from



 That doesn't matter. Obito can easily replicate Minato's performance against V2 Raikage because his attacks are linear. With no knowledge, Raikage merely slips through Obito and Obito then, counterattacks while Raikage's unable to alter his momentum. 

 Juubito also sliced KCM Minato's arm off with ease and tagged him with a Gudoudama before he could warp. He literally couldn't perceive Juubito's strike speed at all with Kyuubi Enhancements.


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## Icegaze (Jan 13, 2016)

Lol scans of hirashin being mentioned by anyone in reference to KCM Naruto 

All I read was KCM Naruto level wasn't there yet 

But question if KCM Naruto speed = minato hirashin ( instant movement so your point is already daft)

How on earth is BM Naruto speed compared to minato once again ?

Or did u forget that part

This is the bit I find cute though : because obito says minato is true to his name when minato didn't even use hirashin 

I'll let you think about what that means 

Take your time


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## StarWanderer (Jan 19, 2016)

Kyu said:


> Bullshit.
> 
> He teleported out, gave A enough time to process what happened, yet RCM A still wasn't fast enough to evade Minato's attack.
> 
> ...



How many times will you put young Ei at the same level as Raikage Ei? Realy, what feats does he have?

He didnt know that those papers were explosive tags, am i right?


----------



## Itachі (Jan 22, 2016)

*Adult Obito vs Minato*

*Location:* Manga

*Distance:* Manga

*Knowledge:* Obito gets Teenage Obito's knowledge and Minato starts off the same

*Mindset:* IC

*Additional Info:* Kyubi, Konoha & Kushina are still factors here

This is MS Obito, see a lot of people say that the battle would play out exactly the same with an Adult Obito so I'm interested to see what the general consensus is.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 22, 2016)

Minato fought adult Obito in the falsh-back (both of them were the same size) => Minato wins high diff as he did in the falsh-back , he is still smarter and has quicker moves/reflexes (better than V2 Ei according to hype and feats) .


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## Kai (Jan 22, 2016)

Didn't you just make this thread a couple weeks ago?

Merging the two.



hbcaptain said:


> Minato fought adult Obito in the falsh-back (both of them were the same size) => Minato wins high diff as he did in the falsh-back , he is still smarter and has quicker moves/reflexes (better than V2 Ei according to hype and feats) .


You have been proven wrong by every translator on the net regarding A's reflexes exceeding Minato's when the former activates the Raiton no Yoroi.

You should let this go my friend


----------



## Itachі (Jan 22, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Minato fought adult Obito in the falsh-back (both of them were the same size)



Nah, Kakashi's the same age as Obito and he was still regarded as young during the Kyubi attack. Though admittedly there are inconsistencies in Kishi's timeline.


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## Itachі (Jan 22, 2016)

Kai said:


> Didn't you just make this thread a couple weeks ago?
> 
> Merging the two.



This is different though, Minato has to protect Kushina, Naruto and the village here.


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## Kai (Jan 22, 2016)

I'm sticking with the merge because although Kyuubi and Kushina are other factors, the dominating discussion is going to be Obito vs. Minato, whether or not that's your intention and anyone can see that coming from a mile away.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 22, 2016)

Kai said:


> Didn't you just make this thread a couple weeks ago?
> You have been proven wrong by every translator on the net regarding A's reflexes exceeding Minato's when the former activates the Raiton no Yoroi.



Minato warped a Kunai before V2 Ei could hit him at 5cm. 



			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> Nah, Kakashi's the same age as Obito and he was still regarded as young during the Kyubi attack. Though admittedly there are inconsistencies in Kishi's timeline.


Chronology is just shit in Naruto , according to that : Obito was Minato size => Obito is adlut .


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## Itachі (Jan 22, 2016)

^ One could argue that Minato couldn't react until Ei was 5cm away from his face.


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## ImSerious (Jan 22, 2016)

nothing's changed. minato rapes him.


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## hbcaptain (Jan 22, 2016)

That was only the first V2 fastest attack   that's why Minato was surprised , but *Minato beeing able to launch a Kunai at 5cm means his moves are faster .*

Plus Minato was looking at V2 Ei with half eye after this :


That means Minato>>Ei in overall (Shunshin+reflexes+FTG) and it makes all sens since Bee wasn't able to touch him not with his V2 Shunshin nor BD .


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## Icegaze (Jan 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ One could argue that Minato couldn't react until Ei was 5cm away from his face.



Which makes no sense considering its in that time frame he flicked the Kunai which A couldn't even perceive 

Also his lack of surprise at A approach 

And the fact that he countered


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jan 22, 2016)

Itachі said:


> ^ One could argue that Minato couldn't react until Ei was 5cm away from his face.



Thats a fact, not an argument.

All Minato can do is to flick his wrist during the time A crossess 8 meters. 

Minato's forearm needs to move like 20 -30 cm to throw that kunai.
A needs to move his 300 lbs body 8 meters to reach Minato.

I don't think we need a scientist to put that all in numbers to show the massive disparity between those 2.

A is fuckloads faster than Minato.


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## Dr. White (Jan 22, 2016)

Obito wins. Adult Obito is much smarter. He would use his faster warp off the bat. 

Assuming he fucked up and Minato escaped. I think Obito needing to rush the fight does him more harm than good.His S/T jutsu is superior, and he has a larger complete arsenal. In a normal fight he could feal Minato out, be cautious, and place the right warp to counter Minato. Obito obviously has better reactions, and jutsu than his previous incantation but if it comes down to one more warp vs Hirahsin battle Idk if he can beat out Minato's reactions. Only problem is Obito was doing fine with BM Naruto movement speed, and KCM Naruto combat speed, so Minato's striking speed at this point might fall flat. *It would be a complete toss up*....

Butttt......Obito has Izanagi, and Minato has no knowledge. GG, Minato.


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## Icegaze (Jan 22, 2016)

Lol faster wrap is fan fic

Not like that would help considering adult obito Kamui is still a lot slower than hirashin


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## ImSerious (Jan 22, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> All Minato can do is to flick his wrist during the time A crossess 8 meters.


1
top panel. minato's hand. kunai.



> A is fuckloads faster than Minato.


stahp.


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## ImSerious (Jan 22, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Obito wins. Adult Obito is much smarter. He would use his faster warp off the bat.


Why are you making stuff up?



> Butttt......Obito has Izanagi, and Minato has no knowledge. GG, Minato.


And Minato's a sensor. GG


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## Android (Feb 24, 2016)

*minato sensei vs obito uchiha rematch - read op*

this is war arc MS obito 

and this is minato sensei as he was before his death but with all knowledge he got from the 4th war

ristrections : jinchuuriki paths - kcm - senjutsu - summoning 

distance : 100 

knowledge : full 

HIRAISHIN vs  KAMUI 

??? who takes this


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## ARGUS (Feb 24, 2016)

Minato wins this just how he did in canon 

 -- still fast enough to react to kamui and dodge it 
 -- still has clones and FTG v2 along with superior speed to slam a rasengan in obitos back whenever he attacks
 -- kamui weapons and outer path stakes are just redirected by S/T barrier. Or straight up dodged 
 -- Katon is dodged by tossing a kunai up in the air and teleporting on obitos back


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## Finalbeta (Feb 24, 2016)

Minato wins


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## ImSerious (Feb 24, 2016)




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## Octavian (Feb 25, 2016)

i see we're both trying to bring down the uchihahas from within by rocking their sets









*Spoiler*: __ 



minato still the best


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## Raiken (Feb 25, 2016)

Adult MS Obito >> Minato > Teen MS Obito

Obito was holding his own against KCM Naruto, MS Kakashi and Gai (Who was likely using the first 2 Gates passively).

Rinnegan/MS Obito => MS Obito > KCM Naruto > Minato 

Obito had 16-17 years of combat and growth since fighting Minato.
When he fought Minato he only had Kamui for around a year.
Adult Obito also has far more powerful Katon's and Izanagi.


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## Dr. White (Feb 25, 2016)

Obito still wins. Unless he is still tagged.


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## Icegaze (Feb 25, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> Adult MS Obito >> Minato > Teen MS Obito
> 
> Obito was holding his own against KCM Naruto, MS Kakashi and Gai (Who was likely using the first 2 Gates passively).
> 
> ...



Lol gai passively using the first 2 gates u making stuff up as u go along ain't yh

People here fail to realise minato beat obito with 1 Kunai . 1 Kunai !!!

As to this faster wrap it's cute that people forget the only reason minato could be in such a situation was because it was a surprise attack 

After that obito couldn't hope to touch minato using 1 Kunai 

Here he got the option of far more Kunai and clones 

Obito eats dirt


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## Raiken (Feb 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Lol gai passively using the first 2 gates u making stuff up as u go along ain't yh
> 
> People here fail to realise minato beat obito with 1 Kunai . 1 Kunai !!!
> 
> ...


I didn't say he definitely was just likely, as we stopped getting statements of ever using anything below the 6th Gate. But you can tell when he's using 3rd-5th, because he has the Chakra Aura.
But 1st-2nd, you can't tell at all, and I don't see why he wouldn't use them passively.

And as I've said, that was 14-15 year old Obito, who had MS for less than a year.
30-31 year old MS Obito >>> 14-15 year old MS Obito.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2016)

What does passive usage mean 

U making stuff up here


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## Raiken (Feb 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> What does passive usage mean
> 
> U making stuff up here


As in, using it normally as he fights without the reader necessarily realising it.
How do you not understand the meaning of passively doing something.
And I'm not even saying he is doing that, but it'd be quite likely that Gai would do that.

There are not many visual indicators that show Sasuke using the kind of speed he used against Gaara in the Chunnin Exams. So based on how you think, Chunnin Exam Sasuke > Part II Sasuke in speed.

Just because there's no visual indicators of statements for usage of the first 2 Gates, doesn't mean they aren't being used.
Guy was also shattering large boulders with his weapon, you're saying that's standard Base strength?

*Spoiler*: __ 







Because the first 2 Gates aren't a big deal, and are things from early Part I, you don't need large visual cues or statements to know that they are likely being used.


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## Sadgoob (Feb 26, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Obito with full knowledge, refined abilities and without needing to rush the battle should win imo. He can play it safe and simply exhaust Minato by forcing constant Hiraishin usage. Plus Izanagi to further improve his chances. Still a very close battle.



Izanagi ambush is the clincher.


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## ImSerious (Feb 26, 2016)

Izanagi doesn't work on Minato. That's canon.


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## Icegaze (Feb 26, 2016)

Cryorex said:


> As in, using it normally as he fights without the reader necessarily realising it.
> How do you not understand the meaning of passively doing something.
> And I'm not even saying he is doing that, but it'd be quite likely that Gai would do that.
> 
> ...



Boulders were shattered in base

You are making stuff up

First gate unlocks omote renge

And when used it has always been obvious to the reader


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## Raiken (Feb 26, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Boulders were shattered in base
> 
> You are making stuff up


Wow you really are dumb. Instead of trying to realising what I'm saying but disagreeing with me, you just say stupid stuff like that.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Fighting an adult shinobi in his prime is not the same as fighting a teenager. Adult Obito has shown a lot better feats than teen Obito. His fight against Kakashi, Gai and KCM Naruto puts him above his younger self.

Obito takes this, eventually.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Using 1 Kunai to beat a shinobi is not the same as using 30+ Kunai and clones to beat a Shinobi

Or using SM attacks which obito can't see


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Using 1 Kunai to beat a shinobi is not the same as using 30+ Kunai and clones to beat a Shinobi
> 
> Or using SM attacks which obito can't see



Obito cant see? LoL, he fought MS Kakashi, Gai and KCM Naruto at the same time. He literally laughs at Minato's attempts.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Obito can't see frog katas 

That's what I meant


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## Raiken (Feb 27, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Obito cant see? LoL, he fought MS Kakashi, Gai and KCM Naruto at the same time. He literally laughs at Minato's attempts.


This exactly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 27, 2016)

You know Minato fans are desperate when they claim the 13 year old incarnation of a character is not an ounce different than the 30 year old version of the same character, who also happens to have additional jutsu and overall better feats.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Obito can't see frog katas
> 
> That's what I meant



Kamui can counter it.


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## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2016)

Not counter it when it can't see it 

Obito cannot detect frog katas as he can't sense natural energy


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## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Not counter it when it can't see it
> 
> Obito cannot detect frog katas as he can't sense natural energy



Can he use them while getting absorbed? Because otherwise, Kamui counters Minato's arsenal.


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## ImSerious (Feb 27, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You know Minato fans are desperate when they claim the 13 year old incarnation of a character is not an ounce different than the 30 year old version of the same character, who also happens to have additional jutsu and overall better feats.







some things just don't change


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