# Abraxas (Marvel) Vs Hitoshura (SMT)



## Demon Of Elru (Jun 13, 2011)

So how does this go?


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 13, 2011)

Wots the SMT guy got?


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## zenieth (Jun 13, 2011)

dot dot fucking dot.


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## MrChubz (Jun 13, 2011)

Can SMT top tiers compete with guys who make Galactus shit his pants?


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## Physics Man (Jun 13, 2011)

Abraxa wins he's far beyond multiversal


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 13, 2011)

Physics Man said:


> Abraxa wins he's far beyond multiversal



Wasn't he as powerful as one, then went around killing others. You make it sound like he could simultaneously take Galactus x 100


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## Physics Man (Jun 13, 2011)

konohan123 said:


> Wasn't he as powerful as one, then went around killing others. You make it sound like he could simultaneously take Galactus x 100



Abraxas was making Multi eternity shit his pants. Multi eternity is far stronger then any Galactus.


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## Artful Lurker (Jun 13, 2011)

Physics Man said:


> Abraxas was making Multi eternity shit his pants. Multi eternity is far stronger then any Galactus.



 I don't I kinda lost my respect for Eternity because he gets fodderized, Shit Iv'e even seen him get man handled.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 13, 2011)

MrChubz said:


> Can SMT top tiers compete with guys who make Galactus shit his pants?



The people that know about SMT say he can beat Abraxas because he is multiversal+ so I guess we need to wait for them to prove it.


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## Shoddragon (Jun 13, 2011)

Two fingers raised by abraxas was wiping out every reed Richards in the multiverse


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## Thor (Jun 13, 2011)

konohan123 said:


> I don't I kinda lost my respect for Eternity because he gets fodderized, Shit Iv'e even seen him get man handled.



Multi-Eternity =/= Eternity


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## MrChubz (Jun 14, 2011)

I didn't know that Multi-eternity got involved with Abraxas. Yeah, there's a 99% chance not only Nocturne-guy loses, but probably the entire SMTverse as well.


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## Keollyn (Jun 14, 2011)

The only guy who survived the UN blast? Yeah, Imma go with him.

Edit: My mistake. TYhe UN was capable of beating him. I read wrong.


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## zenieth (Jun 14, 2011)

I want to know who said Hitoshura could beat  Abraxas, because I've never seen that argued before.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 14, 2011)

zenieth said:


> I want to know who said Hitoshura could beat  Abraxas, because I've never seen that argued before.



Really?

Some quotes then:



Endless Mike said:


> Then put him against Abraxas or someone





Fang said:


> Yahweh pisses out billions of universes, Lucifer is his equal, so is Aleph iirc, and Hitsoshura is right on that level.





Endless Mike said:


> Abraxas was threatening the multiverse which had infinite universes





Fang said:


> Shin Megami Tensei has a lot of multiversals and above, the entire verse is one collection, and Lucifer pretty much sits in the cross nexus of all infinite universes that make up SMT/Persona/and so forth.
> 
> That isn't saying a lot here with SMT power. Actually I believe the correct feat was Yahweh blinked away 30 billion universes with his eye in an instant.





Endless Mike said:


> Which again, is infinitesimal compared to the 616 multiverse. So Abraxas would be a good fight.





Fang said:


> I doubt that.





Endless Mike said:


> The only thing to kill or even harm Abraxas was the Ultimate Nullifier... and I think I've gone over how broken that is in the Fei vs. Galactus thread. So really what makes you think Abraxas wouldn't have a chance?





Fang said:


> Because the top tiers in SMT are about as close to being omnipotent as you can get? And multiversal destruction is nothing to them? Its very clear cut how powerful the SMT top tiers are.





Endless Mike said:


> That really doesn't say much. Again, there are multiverses that are more expansive than others.





Fang said:


> >Infinite Universes
> >Making up infinite multiverses
> >Making up the entirety of the SMT "universe"
> 
> Yeah.





Endless Mike said:


> So again, what places Hitoshura above Abraxas level?





Fang said:


> Almost equal to Lucifer in power.





Endless Mike said:


> Which means what, exactly? Abraxas was a threat to Multi-Eternity, so they are at least comparable then.





Fang said:


> Which means he's (Hitoshura) a top or high tier where multiversal beings are concerned, not particularly impressive in the SMT universe either way.





Endless Mike said:


> Again, there are different scales of multiverses. You keep ignoring this.





Fang said:


> I didn't, infinite universes make up infinite multiverses, which makes up a megaverse in SMT.





Endless Mike said:


> Except he doesn't have control over infinite universes





Fang said:


> Yahweh and Lucier both most certainly do.





Endless Mike said:


> So does Multi-Eternity but Abraxas was threatening to him





Fang said:


> That's an okay comparison, but regardless Yahweh, Brahmin, and Lucifer are above that. Even Kagutsuchi feared Hitoshura's power when he followed Lucifer at the end of SMT III: Nocturne.



Like you see EM ask for feats but Fang just says he is multiversal and that Lucifer can control infinite universes which by feats isn't true because in all the feats you people posted it doesn't say infinite, it just says billions and that like EM said is infinitesimal compared to infinite, then Fang keeps dodging the questions of EM and keeps saying Hitoshura can beat abraxas but without bringing any proof of his claims.

So here is the versus for you people to prove all of your claims of SMT top tiers being multiversal and above also them being able to manipulate inifinite universes.


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## zenieth (Jun 15, 2011)

Here is me, seeing a spite thread for something long since gone, said by one guy and not every SMT follower in the OBD. This is me, proceeding to neg your ass.


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## zenieth (Jun 15, 2011)

Further more there's not need to prove that SMT crew are multiversal, you want us to prove they're better than Abraxas who's anything but a standard multiversal threat, I should neg your ass twice.


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## Fang (Jun 15, 2011)

Its another rendition of the locked thread he previously made, so I reported it.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 15, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Further more there's not need to prove that SMT crew are multiversal, you want us to prove they're better than Abraxas who's anything but a standard multiversal threat, I should neg your ass twice.



Coming in for the clutch. OP gets negged.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 15, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Here is me, seeing a spite thread for something long since gone, said by one guy and not every SMT follower in the OBD. This is me, proceeding to neg your ass.



It isn't spite a thread because someone said he could beat him, so here you have the thread to prove it. 



zenieth said:


> Further more there's not need to prove that SMT crew are multiversal, you want us to prove they're better than Abraxas who's anything but a standard multiversal threat, I should neg your ass twice.



That is were you are wrong, if you claim top tiers are multiversal and above you need to prove it, but you haven't and you neggin me doesn't mean nothing to me it just proves that you can't backup your so called multiversal claims.



Fang said:


> Its another rendition of the locked thread he previously made, so I reported it.



Oh the other thread was fine it got closed because someone kept reporting it over and over again and it seems it was you, instead of reporting threads why don't you for once try and backup all of your claims? or is it that you can't?

And if by some chance you say that you don't want to that is just admiting all of those claims are baseless and pure wank.



Gespenst said:


> Coming in for the clutch. OP gets negged.



Another one that comes and instead of posting feats follows the wagon.

This thread isn't a spite one just prove your claims like any normal debate goes, I will post feats from Abraxas and you people will post feats from Hitoshura, also there is no trolling, no flamming in my part the ones that come and do that are the SMT fans that instead of debating like to derail the threads so people would forget about them and that way they avoid being called out.


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## zenieth (Jun 15, 2011)

We proved, Hitoshura is Multiversal, you want us to prove that he can beat Abraxas, who's far form a normal multiversal.

The very fact that you went out of your way to prove some shit from an old thread that's two months old just further proves this is a spite thread.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 15, 2011)

zenieth said:


> *We proved, Hitoshura is Multiversal*, you want us to prove that he can beat Abraxas, who's far form a normal multiversal.
> 
> The very fact that you went out of your way to prove some shit from an old thread that's two months old just further proves this is a spite thread.



That is the thing, you haven't.

*Spoiler*: __ 






			
				zenieth said:
			
		

> note how it said how time and space are a singular. destruction of a kagatsuchi ends time for a 'world' which is what happens in demon ending. With a single aspect of time you couldn't stop time for one and not for all if they were just planets as they are subject to the same singular time.
> 
> Also japanese game universe and world are the same word.



When he destroyed one Kagutsuchi he destroy all of them, those Kagutsuchi were the same one, they were all linked between them that is why when he destroyed one all of them disappeared.



			
				Old gentleman in a weelchair said:
			
		

> A world is created, populated by mankind,and destroyed.
> This cycle is what maintains the flow of time; when the cycle stops, so does time.
> And now, time has met her death.



That was Kagutsuchi's task, to destroy and create a new world, but when Hitoshura destroyed him, he can no longer do that, and that is why time stopped.



As the screen cap shows in the center of the Amala Universe time and space was controlled, the time and space of each world in that universe, but when Kagutsuchi died everything stopped because there was no more destruction and creation.



			
				zenieth said:
			
		

> also she never gives a limit merely states the grand scheme of things.



She gives a number and that won't change the fact of Infinite > billions.



> Also doesn't explain how all those worlds are simultaneously earth and follow an asymetrical timeline with only a few discrepancies amongst them.



In the video you posted the explain this, the shape and fate of each world depends on the person Kagutsuchi chooses, but all the time and space is controlled in the Amala universe.



> Comparatively, hijiri can't exist in all those worlds with a singular timeline nor merely be instantly reborn as one world dies as we see worlds die simultaneously.



He can, because that is the curse the Great Will put on him, and we do see worlds die simultaneously, but we also see that there are still a lot that don't and in one of those is where Hijiri reborns once he dies.



See.




That is the post you didn't counter and that proves that not only he can't manipulate infinite universes but that he isn't multiversal either.

Also I can link you to post in where you people say Hitoshura is multiversal+ which isn't the case at all.

You made the other thread to be close just cause you didn't like how it was going without it being a spite or a trolling one, now you report this thread for the same exact reason.

Just debate.


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## zenieth (Jun 15, 2011)

And yet the demon route and neutral route blatantly disprove that factor. In the demon route Hitoshura stops time without ever killing kagutsuchi, and yet all of the other kagutsuchi continue to recreate their respective worlds. Considering your argument that amala works on a single timeline there's no possible way that could happen if Amala was just one universe. 

Neutral route goes in the exact opposite direction and has him forcefully destroys kagutsuchi away from his universe and proceed to have it have no effect, once again something that couldn't happen.

Two scenarios in which Kagutsuchi dies, one does not stop time, the other does as well as destroy every other subsequent kagutsuchi. Then we have a route where Kagutsuchi is not faced at all and instead time is shattered, yet conception continues, something that shouldn't be possible if Amala was a single universe with singular time, because you know time completely stopping for a planet would fuck up time everywhere else.

Hell you don't even need to rely on Nocturne to prove His or Lucifer's power. Considering Lucifer was the strongest thing running in Strange Journey which includes being over mem aleph who was shaking the entirety of Schwarztwelt with its breath.  Schwarzwelt being a confirmed layer of universes one atop each other by a verified professional in the game's opening alone.


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## Fang (Jun 15, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Hell you don't even need to rely on Nocturne to prove His or Lucifer's power. Considering Lucifer was the strongest thing running in Strange Journey which includes being over mem aleph who was shaking the entirety of Schwarztwelt with its breath.  Schwarzwelt being a confirmed layer of universes one atop each other by a verified professional in the game's opening alone.



said scientist is a physicist encase anyone is wondering, also not only that but an aspect of YVWH, a small fraction of him, as Demiurge isn't even comprehensible to human beings or even divine beings on the level of Heralds with exception to Metatron


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## Nihilistic (Jun 16, 2011)

A question to people who have played the games and know what they're talking about.

In Nocturne TDE Hitoshura skullfucks Kagutsuchi, ends all time and basically wrecks the whole Amala -verse before punching YHVH in the face. Later he appears in DDS, which is an entirely separate game with no Conceptions occurring, no YHVH (who is either dead or sulking somewhere) and nothing similar to Nocturne. 

Didn't Hitoshura plainly jump universes and decided to chill somewhere else after doing what he did?


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 16, 2011)

Gary MF Oak said:


> Abraxes is shit and he didn't destroy universes by approaching them he simply went around fucking up Galactuses or Galacti or whatever you call it. He caused distortions and such but something like *TTGL* would destroy him.


He was a threat to Multi-Eternity


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm assuming it has some low-end scenes of Multi-Eternity or something else, no thank you


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 16, 2011)

Nihilistic said:


> A question to people who have played the games and know what they're talking about.
> 
> In Nocturne TDE Hitoshura skullfucks Kagutsuchi, ends all time and basically wrecks the whole Amala -verse before punching YHVH in the face. Later he appears in DDS, which is an entirely separate game with no Conceptions occurring, no YHVH (who is either dead or sulking somewhere) and nothing similar to Nocturne.
> 
> Didn't Hitoshura plainly jump universes and decided to chill somewhere else after doing what he did?



1. Obvious non-canon fight. I mean seriously. The notion that any of the DDS cast can even pose a threat to Hitoshura is laughable at best. DDS1 cast at that. Half-Demon Hitoshura can still beat them and True Demon will rape.

2. Nocturne and DDS are somehow of the same timeline. Since in DDS2 when you fight Satan he mentions of someone else who is a gigantic threat messing with the universe (I.E Hitoshura).


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 16, 2011)

Because that's the only arc where Multi-Eternity appears amirite?


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm sorry for having limited knowledge on comics derp, all I know is Multi-Eternity consists of all Eternities on the infinite multiverse


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## Nihilistic (Jun 16, 2011)

Gespenst said:


> 1. Obvious non-canon fight. I mean seriously. The notion that any of the DDS cast can even pose a threat to Hitoshura is laughable at best. DDS1 cast at that. Half-Demon Hitoshura can still beat them and True Demon will rape.



Well, that's why he's 'only' an optional ultimate boss. Under normal circumstances the player shouldn't even know of his existence, much less be able to beat him.



Gespenst said:


> 2. Nocturne and DDS are somehow of the same timeline. Since in DDS2 when you fight Satan he mentions of someone else who is a gigantic threat messing with the universe (I.E Hitoshura).



Wow, what a clusterfuck. In my mind it's easily explainable by saying that it's actually am multiverse, with DDS happening somewhere off Nocturne universe. So Satan was basically pumped about Hitoshura punching YHVH in the face in the Nocturne universe while he was getting his face torn in DDS. 

Pure conjecture from my part. I really need to start DDS.. Looks awesome. If they'd get it together and define what's the verse like so it makes any sense, i.e. a multiverse, universe, where exactly are all the games happening etc, it would be even better. Damn Atlus.


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

Speaking of ultimate bosses, the final one in Strange Journey (since its the next canonical installment after III/Nocturne) is Demiurge whose a fragment of YVWH.


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

The DDS fights with Hitoshura and Lucifer pretty much show they don't give half a fuck about Serph and friends.


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

I'll repeat though with the Demon Lord in the final/true ending with Naoya in DS was pretty much makes him right under Hitoshura's level.


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

Doesn't DS2 push that to the less likely canon?


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

DS2 isn't out yet though.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

zenieth said:


> And yet the demon route and neutral route blatantly disprove that factor. In the demon route Hitoshura stops time without ever killing kagutsuchi, and yet all of the other kagutsuchi continue to recreate their respective worlds. Considering your argument that amala works on a single timeline there's no possible way that could happen if Amala was just one universe.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LChubqx22YE&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

Not really, Hitoshura doesn't stop time in the demon ending, Kagutsuchi chooses not to create the world Hitoshura wanted and thus chaos reigns, but time for the other worlds continues.

Btw when one world isn't created the rest keep going on:



Creation and destruction, when somenthing isn't created chaos reigns, is pretty simple.



Time and space melt together, the time and space of all of those worlds.



			
				Old gentleman in a weelchair said:
			
		

> A world is created, populated by mankind,and destroyed.
> This cycle is what maintains the flow of time; when the cycle stops, so does time.
> And now, time has met her death.



One world not being created wasn't going to stop nothing, to stop time you need to completely stop the cycle of creation and destruction, like in the true demon ending.



> Neutral route goes in the exact opposite direction and has him forcefully destroys kagutsuchi away from his universe and proceed to have it have no effect, once again something that couldn't happen.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3qfqEYPMsQ&feature=related[/YOUTUBE]

From his world not the universe that is the amala universe, and it did have an effect because like the woman explained each world is shapped by the way the chosen one wants and that was what Hitoshura did, since Kagutsuchi didn't like the world he was going to create Hitoshura defeated him and made him create it at the end.



zenieth said:


> Two scenarios in which Kagutsuchi dies, one does not stop time, the other does as well as destroy every other subsequent kagutsuchi. Then we have a route where Kagutsuchi is not faced at all and instead time is shattered, yet conception continues, something that shouldn't be possible if Amala was a single universe with singular time, because you know time completely stopping for a planet would fuck up time everywhere else.



One in which Hitoshura defeats Kagutsuchi and makes him create the world he wanted, the other in which he destroys every single one of them stopping creation and destruction thus stopping time, then the other in which Kagutsuchi chooses to not create the world Hitoshura wanted and thus chaos reigns, time was never shattered.

And time stopping for one planet doesn't fuck time up everywhere, to fuck up time everywhere you need to completely stop Kagutsuchi's task of creation and destruction, like in the true demon ending.




			
				Voice said:
			
		

> How can you be the one standing before me...?
> 
> Why have you been chosen..?
> 
> ...



Pretty clear like the woman explained each world is created in the shape of the chosen one, but Kagutsuchi kind of dislikes Hitoshura for being a demon and all that, so in the neutral ending Hitoshura has to defeat him to be able to create his world, in the demon ending Kagtsuchi says fuck you to hitoshura and doesn't create nothing, and in the true demon ending Hitoshura completely destroys Kagutsuchi stoping time forever.



> Hell you don't even need to rely on Nocturne to prove His or Lucifer's power. Considering Lucifer was the strongest thing running in Strange Journey which includes being over mem aleph who was shaking the entirety of Schwarztwelt with its breath. *Schwarzwelt being a confirmed layer of universes one atop each other by a verified professional in the game's opening alone.*



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9I1pE3UojU[/YOUTUBE]

It starts at minute 6:00, and where does it say it is a confirmed layer of universes one atop the other?

Also there is the *manipulating infinite universes* part which in all the sources and videos you have posted doesn't say nothing like that, the only number they give is billions, so where is that infinite part coming from?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 16, 2011)

zenieth said:


> The DDS fights with Hitoshura and Lucifer pretty much show they don't give half a fuck about Serph and friends.



It also shows how much of a boss Raidou is. Lucifer was dead serious when fighting him and it showed. Raidou was the ONLY opponent he fought in both his Fallen Angel form (his default form) and Angelic Form (his form before his fall from grace).

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cM1_3Rh2N94[/YOUTUBE]

And there's that whole Hitoshura vs Raidou in Nocturne re-release. Which is actually more plausable. And awesome.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0X06bzRieE[/YOUTUBE]


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## Weather (Jun 16, 2011)

> It starts at minute 6:00, and where does it say it is a confirmed layer of universes one atop the other?



Later Arthur (I think it was... when you recover the data from the blue jet) explains that the Schwarzwelt had that type of structure (layers on top of each other connected by quantum tunnels)

It was something like that.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 16, 2011)

Weather said:


> Later Arthur (I think it was... when you recover the data from the blue jet) explains that the Schwarzwelt had that type of structure (layers on top of each other connected by quantum tunnels)
> 
> It was something like that.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nx68LEqYOss&feature=player_embedded[/YOUTUBE]

6:10-7:57

Arthur showing the Schwartzwelt as it's mapped out


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

Antila
Bootes
Carina
Delphinus
Erinadus
Fornax
Grus
Horologiram

Each are separate worlds and stated dimensions within the Schwartzwelt universe. Mem Aleph created all that, and she can warp or destroy it in her true form as Empty Mem Aleph, and she can be felt effecting in all of those separate worlds or universes (japanese has the same word/kanji for both) in her weaker form.

And another feat which is nice is that cutting edge military tech by humans can create their own space-time dimensions in Schwartzwelt.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (Jun 16, 2011)

Fang said:


> Antila
> Bootes
> Carina
> Delphinus
> ...



Tech in SJ is rediculous even by SMT standards.


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

There's also a broken off aspect of YVWH which is heavily implied to be a portion of him from the fight between Hitoshura and him from SMT III in Strange Journey as the ultimate boss.


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

Except He dies in the neutral ending. He goes the same way that he does in the true demon ending, you're nitpicking if you say that he didn't destroy Kagutsuchi in that route.


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

And zelenin states the multiple parallel universes right at 7:05, you're bullshitting elru


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

I was jus about to type I saw it again, and it actually said universes, you are right in that point.

Now can someone answer this:



> Also there is the manipulating infinite universes part which in all the sources and videos you have posted doesn't say nothing like that, the only number they give is billions, so where is that infinite part coming from?


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Except He dies in the neutral ending. He goes the same way that he does in the true demon ending, you're nitpicking if you say that he didn't destroy Kagutsuchi in that route.



He didn't die in the neutral ending,  you see him wake up.

Edit: Oh you are talking about Kagutsuchi, he was defeated but not destroyed, just before he explodes he says " you want me to unleash my power" he created the world Hitoshura wanted but he wasn't completely destroyed like in the true demon ending.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

So is someone going to address this:



> Also there is the *manipulating infinite universes* part which in all the sources and videos you have posted doesn't say nothing like that, the only number they give is billions, so where is that infinite part coming from?



?


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

Except he was. Millions then, shut up about it, we already addressed this in the lucifer topic.


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## Fang (Jun 16, 2011)

zenieth said:


> And zelenin states the multiple parallel universes right at 7:05, you're bullshitting elru



Exactly. This is reinforced by Arthur and Zelenin several times to the crew and Jimeniz in the game. Especially in the first half.


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

zenieth said:


> Except he was.



Ok, lets say he did.

Lets say those worlds are universes, now prove this part please:



> Also there is the *manipulating infinite universes* part which in all the sources and videos you have posted doesn't say nothing like that, the only number they give is billions, so where is that infinite part coming from?





zenieth said:


> Except he was. billions then, shut up about it, we already addressed this in the lucifer topic.



Good to hear you finally concede they can't manipulate infinite universes.

I concede they are Multiversal too, but not Multiversal+ like you people were saying.

There is a big difference between infinite and billions.


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## zenieth (Jun 16, 2011)

I said that way back in the Lucifer topic, were you not reading?!


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## Demon Of Elru (Jun 16, 2011)

My bad then, maybe I got confused with Fang's comments.

Nice debate.


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