# Hashirama vs. Gaiden Sasuke



## Rocky (Jul 25, 2015)

*Location:* VotE
*Distance: *Opposing Heads
*Mindset:* IC
*Knowledge: *Reputation
*Restrictions:* Rinnegan (Sasuke can use the EMS in his left eye though)


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 25, 2015)

Restricting Rinnegan isn't a game changer, Sasuke's flying PS is still too much for Base Hashirama from this distance, assuming it's as powerful as in the War-Arc.


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## RBL (Jul 25, 2015)

so,this is rikudou sasuke?

or normal sasuke?

i think hashirama should be able to win


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## The Undying (Jul 25, 2015)

Let's cut the bullshit and look at this for what it is, without any wank or exaggerated assumptions of "buffs" that were never actually confirmed: Sasuke doesn't have access to his major powerup. Nobody's stomping anyone with Amenotejikara taken out of the picture.

That said, Hashirama may be at a disadvantage from this distance if Sasuke opts for PS immediately, though his SM activation speed is nothing to sniff at.


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## ARGUS (Jul 25, 2015)

Sasuke clowns him, 
restricting rinnegan makes no difference when rikudo PS still annihilates everything in hashiramas arsenal


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 25, 2015)

Sasuke obliterates Hashirama. Rather easily. Unlike against Shin, he won't be holding back nor dicking around.


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## Trojan (Jul 26, 2015)

I was going to say "Hashirama sucks as well" which true seeing how he and Hiruzen were the worst 2 Hokages
when it comes to battles, but thinking Sasuke will easily defeat him without his powers sounds idiotic to me to say
the least. 

I still don't think (and will never do) that firepower is everything, but the problem is, I never felt that Hashirama is
good in combat outside of pure firepower to be honest.


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## Amol (Jul 26, 2015)

Sasuke fodderizes him.


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## Ersa (Jul 26, 2015)

Honestly I'm going to wait until the movie before I judge Gaiden Sasuke since he was gimped until the end. Still VOTE2 Sasuke and The Last Sasuke with Rinnegan restricted clown Hashirama so personally I think this is a stomp unless he really did get weaker.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Gaiden Sasuke is no different than VoTE Sasuke so Hashirama gets his shit kicked in. His PS is more than enough as his feats with it outclass anything Hashirama's shown.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Gaiden Sasuke is *no different than VoTE Sasuke *so Hashirama gets his shit kicked in. His PS is more than enough as his feats with it outclass anything Hashirama's shown.



Madara had vote PS and needed Kurama just to compete with Hashirama and still lose. Hashi kills Sasuke mid difficulty.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Madara had vote PS and needed Kurama just to compete with Hashirama and still lose. Hashi kills Sasuke mid difficulty.



Implying Madara's PS was anywhere near as powerfu as Sasuke's.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Implying Madara's PS was anywhere near as powerfu as Sasuke's.



PS is PS... Prove me wrong with a panel then.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> PS is PS... Prove me wrong with a panel then.



So you want to show a feat from Madara's PS where he's casually slicing up meteors that dwarf mountain ranges(no let me correct that. the pieces of the sliced up meteor are dwarfing mountain ranges) with speed faster than anything Madara's PS has displayed?



When you can do that then we can talk about Madara's PS being equal to Sasuke's. 

Same jutsu does not equate to the same power. It never has in this manga.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> So you want to show a feat from Madara's PS where he's casually slicing up meteors that dwarf mountain ranges(no let me correct that. the pieces of the sliced up meteor are dwarfing mountain ranges) with speed faster than anything Madara's PS has displayed?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its still PS they are both the same ability.....

Sasuke just has a god power buff. It doesn't mean his teqnique is any better then Madara's. If Madara had a god power up his PS would be the same.

I also thought Naruto and Sasuke's god powers were taken away?


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Its still PS they are both the same ability.....
> 
> Sasuke just has a god power buff. It doesn't mean his teqnique is any better then Madara's. If Madara had a god power up his PS would be the same.



Yes they're the same technique, but like I said, having the same technique doesn't mean having the same power.

Sasuke's PS is far stronger than Madara's.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Yes they're the same technique, but like I said, having the same technique doesn't mean having the same power.
> 
> Sasuke's PS is far stronger than Madara's.



I thought Sasuke doesn't have his god power up any more?


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> I thought Sasuke doesn't have his god power up any more?



He lost his seal. Nothing more. His power-up was the six tomoe-rinnegan, which he still has.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Hashi still wins what is Sasuke going to do against the sleep pollen forest?


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Hashi still wins what is Sasuke going to do against the sleep pollen forest?



Oh I don't know, fly far above the pollen's range with his PS and then obliterate the forest with a single slash.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Oh I don't know, fly far above the pollen's range with his PS and then obliterate the forest with a single slash.



Sounds pretty fanfic to me. Hashi can create a forest as tall and deep as the one from star wars on kashykk the wookkie home world.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Sounds pretty fanfic to me. *Hashi can create a forest as tall and deep as the one from star wars on kashykk the wookkie home world.*



And you're talking about fanfic?  

Unless Hashirama can create a forest capable of reaching a height taller than what we see here then he's not hitting Sasuke's PS with that pollen.


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## Trojan (Jul 26, 2015)

Why do people assume everything is slightly high is a mountain? 
I am starting to wonder if some people know how high a mountain is. 

there was/is no mountains at where they fought. 

It's as ridiculous as those people who think a mountain is only slightly bigger than a tree.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Jul 26, 2015)

are people still claiming that sasukes PS was chopping up "mountain range dwarfing" meteors?



based on how big the fully developed meteors were shown to be, that is impossible. they are comparable to the shinjus trunk in size, which in turn, doesnt dwarf mountains.


literally every single scan shows a fully developed meteor to be multi-mountain level in size at the most.
if one meteor is mere multi-mountain level, how does their rubble dwarf mountain ranges?


in this scan, we directly see how big those meteors are compared to PS.


we can see the curvature on the meteor which wouldnt be possible if those meteors were the size that people claim they were.

we can see that PS with its wings extended and all is around the same size as a fragment 1/4th the size of a full meteor.


so if people want to claim that the meteor fragments were "dwarfing mountain ranges" based on this panel

 then so was PS since its almost comparable in height while also bearing around half their width.

now lets get to the performance of sasukes susano at VOTE.


now if sasukes susano was at a level of power where it could truly chop of meteors whose fragments dwarfed mountain ranges, then the destruction of his PS would be far more than it is in this scan.

based on that scan, it isnt above any other PS power wise. logically it wouldnt be since all PS wield the same blade with the only differences being unique abilities that the user can extend to PS.

kakashi: kamui+susano
sasuke: chidori+susano


and sasukes susano isnt special. the only people that say this are fanboys. all PS can fly.


*Spoiler*: __ 



_Ninjutsu,all ranges,kekke-genkai,offensive,defensive. 
*Users: Uchiha Madara*
Eternity reigns within these pupils,allowing to shape the bravery into clad blue! 


The power of the "Mangekyo Sharingan" is able to activate incredible ninjutsu.Enormous chakra clad jutsu materialize, towering over the mountains( exceeding the height of the mountains), taking authority over battlefield to its hands(changing the flow of battle).Appearance of the complete jutsu differs in accordance to the user.Moreover for users that are good at ninjutsu "Susano'o"themselves,becomes possible to enter/trigger the invocation of the complete body(kanseitai).*Furthermore Susano'o in next form can wear special armor which can shape/turn on wings that allow it to fly.*_





in other words, hashirama already dealt with a "flying PS".

hashiramas either fights sasukes susano on even grounds with the mokujin, or he opts for shinsuusenju in order to end this quickly.


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## Rocky (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> He lost his seal. Nothing more. His power-up was the six tomoe-rinnegan, which he still has.



I'm pretty sure his hand-out was that seal. It's really confusing, but there's definitely evidence for it. 


Sasuke's Rikudō Chidori never made an appearance again, nor did _any_ of Naruto's non-Kurama bijū techniques. 
Sasuke doesn't appear have the Jūbi Jin speed & durability that he had against Madara & Kaguya, since he didn't just blitz base Naruto or Papa Shin.
Rikudō asked them to hold out their hands, so he was obviously lending them the seals, and Rikudō mentioned being powerless without them.

I don't know why nobody wants to believe that the symbols themselves were the power up. SPSM & Rinnegan were awakened_ by Naruto & Sasuke_, not Hagoromo.

EDIT: Here's the _link_ of Hagoromo saying he gave a huge amount of power away. Notice how he still has his Rinnegan & Senjutsu.


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## Zef (Jul 26, 2015)

Sasuke speed blitz.


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## The Undying (Jul 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Here's the _link_ of Hagoromo saying he gave a huge amount of power away. Notice how he still has his Rinnegan & Senjutsu.



Just to add to that, _this page_ and _this page_ clearly signify that the seals WERE the Yin/Yang chakra buffs. When they were returned to Hagoromo, so was his chakra.

Now I don't know if the bulk of their strength was the Yin/Yang chakra or Senjutsu/Rinnegan, but it shouldn't matter since Sasuke doesn't have his Rinnegan in this thread anyway. He's completely deprived of Hagoromo's handouts here.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure his hand-out was that seal. It's really confusing, but there's definitely evidence for it.
> 
> 
> Sasuke's Rikudō Chidori never made an appearance again, nor did _any_ of Naruto's non-Kurama bijū techniques.
> ...



Because there's numerous sources that state the Rinnegan and SPSM come from Hagoromo.



Along with the final databook saying Amenotejikara (a power of Sasuke's rinnegan) is a power that was given to Sasuke by Hagoromo.

The only thing the seals seem to have granted them were the healing powers and black chidori. That was it. They lost those powers the instant those seals were returned to Hagoromo and that's all they lost. Sasuke didn't have any spectacular speed or durability. He likely blitzed Madara with Amenotejikara, which he still has.

Either way, my original point doesn't change. Sasuke's PS has feats above anything Hashirama's done, so he takes this IMO.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure his hand-out was that seal. It's really confusing, but there's definitely evidence for it.
> 
> 
> Sasuke's Rikudō Chidori never made an appearance again, nor did _any_ of Naruto's non-Kurama bijū techniques.
> ...


Yeah I agree with you and the Undying.

Hagaromo powered up Sasuke with his own Chakra, which he split into Yin and Yang, Yin for Sasuke, Yang for Naruto.

The 9-Bijuu's Chakra and Tomoe-Rinnegan, Sasuke and Naruto gained them themselves.

This is what I believe to be the case:

While they fought Madara/Kaguya, Hagaromo was consistently maintaining the high levels of Chakra on their Seals.
Once they Sealed Kaguya, the Link to Hagaromo ended, what Hagaromo implies is that he seems to have used a lot of his Chakra by the end, which sort of supports the notion that Hagaromo had a connection with their Seals, especially in the way they returned to him after the Six Paths Chibaku Tensei.

But any of Hagaromo's Chakra that was left in their Chakra Network after the Link to Hagaromo ended would have remained until it was all used up.
Hagaromo's Chakra that remained was likely finally all used up during VotE2, either after the Ashura-Kyuubi Avatar and 9-Bijuu PS were destroyed or at the latest, by the time they blew each others arms off.

By the conclusion of VotE2 and onwards, Naruto and Sasuke are not the Juubi Jinchuuriki combating God Tiers they once were.

The reason I believe they simply didn't loose ALL of Hagaromo's Yin/Yang Chakra after they Sealed Kaguya was because, there must be a reason why Naruto can still use SPSM after Sealing Kaguya, but by the time of The Last and later in 700-710-Boruto, he can't.
I believe Hagaromo's Yang Chakra was what allowed Naruto's Body to combine the 9-Bijuu's Chakra and Senjutsu into Six Paths Senjutsu.
And that it was Hagaromo's Yin Chakra that allowed Sasuke to combine the 9-Bijuu's Chakra and Perfect Susano'o into the 9-Bijuu PS.
But as I said earlier, I think they used the last of Hagaromo's Chakra by the conclusion of VotE2.


Altair21 said:


> Because there's numerous sources that state the Rinnegan and SPSM come from Hagoromo.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Nothing in the Manga supports that really, not even the page you linked.
Only the databook implies that having Amenotejikara was thanks to Hagaromo, but I'd prefer to go with the Manga, not the Databook.


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## KamiKira (Jul 26, 2015)

What's the point of restricting sasuke's rinnegan? aka the only thing that puts him above hashirama?? Madara's PS is bigger than sasuke by alot and yet it is overall small compared to the SS which hashirama won't probably need :/


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Just to add to that, _this page_ and _this page_ clearly signify that the seals WERE the Yin/Yang chakra buffs. When they were returned to Hagoromo, so was his chakra.
> 
> Now I don't know if the bulk of their strength was the Yin/Yang chakra or Senjutsu/Rinnegan, but it shouldn't matter since Sasuke doesn't have his Rinnegan in this thread anyway. He's completely deprived of Hagoromo's handouts here.


That essentially makes it EMS Sasuke with Hashirama's DNA/Chakra and Flying PS.

I'd say maybe: Rinnegan Madara w/o Limbo = SM Hashirama = EMS+100% Kyuubi Madara > EMS Gaiden Sasuke > EMS Madara = Base Hashirama.


KamiKira said:


> What's the point of restricting sasuke's rinnegan? aka the only thing that puts him above hashirama?? Madara's PS is bigger than sasuke by alot and yet it is overall small compared to the SS which hashirama won't probably need :/


Yeah Madara's PS is about 3x the Size of Sasuke's PS, however Sasuke's PS can fly and Sasuke also has Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi, Madara just has Susano'o.
That would make their Susano'o equal I think, Flight VS Size, however Sasuke's Amaterasu/Kagutsuchi put his Sharingan powers above Madara's overall.

But yeah, In regards to Gaiden Sasuke, without Preta Path, Chibaku Tensei, Amenotejikara; SM Hashirama probably wins.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Yeah I agree with you and the Undying.
> 
> Hagaromo powered up Sasuke with his own Chakra, which he split into Yin and Yang, Yin for Sasuke, Yang for Naruto.
> 
> ...



I don't really care what you'd prefer to go with. The DB is canon. Your opinion is not.



KamiKira said:


> What's the point of restricting sasuke's rinnegan? aka the only thing that puts him above hashirama?? Madara's PS is bigger than sasuke by alot and yet it is overall small compared to the SS which hashirama won't probably need :/



1. No it's not and nothing has suggested it's bigger in anyway. 
2. Size doesn't mean a thing
3. Sasuke's PS has feats that trump anything SS has dished out


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> I don't really care what you'd prefer to go with. The DB is canon. Your opinion is not.


DB is full of contradictions and vague interpretations.
I'd rather wipe my ass with the hastily put together crap databook than use it in a debate.

Previous databooks have loads of statements in them that are lately completely proven incorrect by the Manga later on.
One example that I can actually remember "You have to have Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi to use Susano'o".

Databook = Trash


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> DB is full of contradictions and vague interpretations.
> I'd rather wipe my ass with the hastily put together crap databook than use it in a debate.



Feel free to do that. DB is canon. Your opinion isn't. Whine some more.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Feel free to do that. DB is canon. Your opinion isn't. Whine some more.


DB is Canon in your opinion, where is the direct confirmation by Kishi that Databook = Canon?
There's even stuff IN the Manga that contradicts the new Databook despite the Databook being made at the end of the Manga.

Just because you're not smart enough to realise what the Manga is telling you and just blindly follow a badly put together databook that is designed to make some quick dolla.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> DB is Canon in your opinion, where is the direct confirmation by Kishi that Databook = Canon?
> There's even stuff IN the Manga that contradicts the new Databook despite the Databook being made after the end of the Manga.
> 
> Just because you're not smart enough to realise what the Manga is telling you and just blindly follow a badly put together databook that is designed to make some quick dolla.



Still crying huh?


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Still crying huh?


No, I just no I'm very likely right about Naruto and Sasuke not being powered up by Hagaromo any more either after Six Paths Chibaku Tensei or by VotE2, either after their Ashura-Kyuubi VS 9-Bijuu PS Clash or after they blow each others arms off.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> No, I just no I'm very likely right about Naruto and Sasuke not being powered up by Hagaromo any more either after Six Paths Chibaku Tensei or by VotE2, either after their Ashura-Kyuubi VS 9-Bijuu PS Clash or after they blow each others arms off.



Except you're not. The DB and manga already prove that. Now cry some more.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Except you're not. The DB and manga already prove that. Now cry some more.


Databook supports your case, the Manga does not, if anything the Manga supports my case more than yours, so, go on your way now.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Databook does not, if anything the Manga supports my case more than yours, so, go on your way now.



Except it does. Amenotejikara comes from Hagoromo according  to it, so once again, cry some more.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Except it does. Amenotejikara comes from Hagoromo according  to it, so once again, cry some more.


Once again, Databook = Trash, so I don't give a shit what it says.
Sasuke would have awakened the Rinnegan without Hagaromo, the most Hagaromo could have possibly done is maybe quicken up the awakening of his Rinnegan so he'd have it straight away against Madara.

Sasuke would have the potential to awaken the Rinnegan on his own thanks to Hashirama and Kabuto.

Amenotejikara is simply Sasuke's Rinnegan Jutsu, just like Limbo Hengoku is Madara's.

Sasuke and Naruto no longer have Hagaromo's Chakra, deal with it.

Shin schooled them after all, and no matter how much they underestimated Shin, no level of underestimation would have lead to the near victory Shin had on them if they were still being powered up by Hagaromo's Chakra.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Once again, Databook = Trash, so I don't give a shit what it says.
> Sasuke would have awakened the Rinnegan without Hagaromo, the most Hagaromo could have possibly done is maybe quicken up the awakening of his Rinnegan so he'd have it straight away against Madara.
> 
> Sasuke would have the potential to awaken the Rinnegan on his own thanks to Hashirama and Kabuto.
> ...



Once again, I don't care for an opinion that's not canon. DB is. You can sit here and attempt to force your opinion all you want, but it's not going to do you any good whatsoever. 

Now cry some more.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Once again, I don't care for an opinion that's not canon. DB is. You can sit here and attempt to force your opinion all you want, but it's not going to do you any good whatsoever.
> 
> Now cry some more.


You can attempt to sit here all day and try to force a crap Databook that was produced to make a bit of dolla on people, it's not going to happen.

For starters you've already contradicted yourself.

To support your argument for Sasuke still having Hagaromo's Chakra, you state that:


Altair21 said:


> He lost his seal. Nothing more. His power-up was the six tomoe-rinnegan, which he still has.




Later to further support your argument that Sasuke still has Hagaromo's Chakra, you state that:



Altair21 said:


> Along with the final databook saying Amenotejikara (a power of Sasuke's rinnegan) is a power that was given to Sasuke by Hagoromo.




Yet Sasuke used Amenotejikara with a single normal Rinnegan.

Which contradicts what you said.
Unless you believe the ENTIRE Rinnegan was from Hagaromo completely, which makes what Hashirama and Kabuto did pointless other than to just simply bring him back to life. Which THEN goes against the notion that you need Ashura & Indra Chakra to awaken the Rinnegan, as Sasuke only received Hagaromo's Yin Chakra.

You just use the databook because YOU yourself have no idea of what is going on in the Manga, and need it to be told to you.


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## KamiKira (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> I
> 1. No it's not and nothing has suggested it's bigger in anyway.


Com again?
_this page_

Taller than Mounties^^^
 Hiruzen Sarutobi
2
Come on now


> 2. Size doesn't mean a thing


It does actually matter when you have nothing that can damage your opponent other than PS


> 3. Sasuke's PS has feats that trump anything SS has dished out


DMS Kakashi PS is the most powerful


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

KamiKira said:


> Com again?
> _this page_
> 
> Taller than Mounties^^^
> ...



Do I really need to go through size being inconsistent again? I've went through it in the past and people still don't seem to get it. 



Certainly isn't bigger than a mountain there.

Notice the huge shoulder pads:



Now notice the tiny shoulder pads:



Kishi is inconsistent with size and always has been. Absolutely nothing has suggested one PS is far bigger than the other nor would it make any sense for Madara's to be bigger as Sasuke has far more chakra than him. 



> It does actually matter when you have nothing that can damage your opponent other than PS



Except Sasuke's PS could easily demolish Madara's. 



> DMS Kakashi PS is the most powerful





It may have the most hax, but it certainly isn't the most powerful. Sasuke's PS has the best raw power feats bar none. He was casually dicing up meteors where the pieces of said meteors were dwarfing mountains.



Cryorex said:


> You can attempt to sit here all day and try to force a crap Databook that was produced to make a bit of dolla on people, it's not going to happen.
> 
> For starters you've already contradicted yourself.
> 
> ...



Still crying and attempting to force your opinion on me eh?


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Kishi is inconsistent with size and always has been. Absolutely nothing has suggested one PS is far bigger than the other nor would it make any sense for Madara's to be bigger as Sasuke has far more chakra than him.


It's actually incredibly apparent that Madara's PS is much bigger than Sasuke's PS and Naruto's 50% BM. 
It's far more believable that Sasuke's PS is smaller than Madara's PS, when it has been shown that Susano'o can differ in size.
As opposed to believing that 50% Kurama can increase in size just because Naruto is using SPSM, despite 50% Kurama being a set size.


Altair21 said:


> Certainly isn't bigger than a mountain there.


Actually, Hashirama and Madara  were fighting each other inside the Hachibi+50% Kyuubi Bijuu Dama Crater, which is inside the Tenpenchi Crater.
They are far below the normal surface level which the mountains are on.

The Blue Circle is the Hachibi Whirlwind clearing, where the battle took place from Chapter 560-609.
The Green Circle is the Hachibi+50% Kyuubi Bijuu Dama Crater.
The Red Circle is the Tenpenchi Crater.
The Purple Circle is when JJ Obito took out BM+SM and EMS Sasuke with his Gudoudama Arms.

*Spoiler*: __ 














So they may have looked smaller against the Mountains compared to Madara's PS in 589.
But they are inside a Super Giant Crater than is inside a Super Mega Giant Crater.


> Except Sasuke's PS w/ Hagaromo's Yin Chakra could easily demolish Madara's.


Corrected.



> It may have the most hax, but it certainly isn't the most powerful. Sasuke's PS has the best raw power feats bar none. He was casually dicing up meteors where the pieces of said meteors were dwarfing mountains.


PS dicing up mountain range sized meteors while being powered up by Hagaromo's Yin Chakra.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

>Cryorex
>Expects me to take anything he says seriously


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> >Cryorex
> >Expects me to take anything he says seriously


Defends his case with failed mockery, it only shows your own incompetence and ignorance.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Defends his case with failed mockery, it only shows your own incompetence and ignorance.



Oh I've already defended my cases numerous times in the past with you. I just have no desire to go through the same rodeo again. 



But do go on and continue crying about it.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Oh I've already defended my cases numerous times in the past with you. I just have no desire to go through the same rodeo again.


You're ability to defend your case is terrible, you have no viable evidence, proof or link any panels that support what you believe.

You just go, "databook, databook, databook" like a broken record.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> You're ability to defend your case is terrible, you have no viable evidence, proof or link any panels that support what you believe.
> 
> You just go, "databook, databook, databook" like a broken record.



Yes, I actually use canon sources. I'm sorry if that's beyond your ability. 

Now are you going to continue crying because you're not getting your way?


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> Yes, I actually use canon sources. I'm sorry if that's beyond your ability.
> 
> Now are you going to continue crying because you're not getting your way?


Can tell you're pretty childish in the way you talk to people. How old are you? 26!? Wow you're not very mature for your age.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Can tell you're pretty childish in the way you talk to people. How old are you? 26!? Wow you're not very mature for your age.



The tears keep coming.


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## The Undying (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The reason I believe they simply didn't loose ALL of Hagaromo's Yin/Yang Chakra after they Sealed Kaguya was because, there must be a reason why Naruto can still use SPSM after Sealing Kaguya, but by the time of The Last and later in 700-710-Boruto, he can't.



Shikamaru Hiden attributes Naruto retaining RSM to the remnants of each of the nine Bijuu's chakra within him, not Hagoromo's chakra. The pages I linked to show that the symbols ARE the Yin/Yang chakra, and every ability confirmed to be linked with that powerup wasn't even used at VOTE 2. The only reasonable conclusion is that Hagoromo's chakra left them entirely after Kaguya's demise.

Also, we shouldn't dispute the databook. Hagoromo did in fact give them RSM and Rinnegan, but only because they already possessed the prerequisites for it in the first place. Those prerequisites (the Bijuu chakra, Hashirama's cells) allowed them to retain their RSM and Rinnegan powerups even after Kaguya's sealing. I've acknowledged before that Naruto may have lost RSM sometime later, but I don't think the reason pertains to Hagoromo or anything discussed here and honestly it isn't relevant to this thread.

As for the idea that Sasuke's PS slashed these supposed "mountain range dwarfing" meteors, I agree with Shinobi no Kami. The only reason they appear that way is because the meteors are closer to the len's eye perspective than the mountains; other shots of the meteors visibly indicate that they're not _that_ big. The manga doesn't actually provide us with a huge amount of incentive to believe Sasuke's PS is much stronger than Madara's, especially when Sasuke relied way more on his tomoe Rinnegan than Susanoo itself.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Shikamaru Hiden attributes Naruto retaining RSM to the remnants of each of the nine Bijuu's chakra within him, not Hagoromo's chakra.


I agree that SPSM is a result of 9-Bijuu Chakra combined with Senjutsu. However then why after VotE2 does he appear to no longer have the ability to use SPSM?
It just appears to be that when Naruto "seemed" to have lost the last of Hagaromo's Yang Chakra, he could no longer use SPSM.
I believe it simply could have no longer be self-renewing  after Sealing Kaguya, and then during VotE2 it completely ran out.
I theorized that it was perhaps Hagaromo's Yang Chakra that allowed Naruto's body to support the combination of 9-Bijuu Chakra and Senjutsu into Six Paths Senjutsu and that was the reason he hasn't used SPSM since VotE2.


> The pages I linked to show that the symbols ARE the Yin/Yang chakra, and every ability confirmed to be linked with that powerup wasn't even used at VOTE 2. The only reasonable conclusion is that Hagoromo's chakra left them entirely after Kaguya's demise.


That is one possibility, but then why do you think Naruto can use SPSM in the first half of VotE2, but never again after?


> Also, we shouldn't dispute the databook. Hagoromo did in fact give them RSM and Rinnegan, but only because they already possessed the prerequisites for it in the first place. Those prerequisites (the Bijuu chakra, Hashirama's cells) allowed them to retain their RSM and Rinnegan powerups even after Kaguya's sealing. I've acknowledged before that Naruto may have lost RSM sometime later, but I don't think the reason pertains to Hagoromo or anything discussed here and honestly it isn't relevant to this thread.


So what you're saying is, Naruto and Sasuke had all the peices of the puzzle already and Hagaromo helped put them together. See, now this is something I would agree with, however some imply that it is entirely due to the power Hagaromo gave them.


> As for the idea that Sasuke's PS slashed these supposed "mountain range dwarfing" meteors, I agree with Shinobi no Kami. The only reason they appear that way is because the meteors are closer to the len's eye perspective than the mountains; every other shot of the meteors visibly indicate that they're not _that_ big. The manga doesn't actually provide us with a huge amount of incentive to believe Sasuke's PS is much stronger than Madara's, especially when considering the obvious fact that Sasuke relied way more on his tomoe Rinnegan than Susanoo itself.


I somewhat disagree with this, it's quite clear that those meteors are the size of small mountain ranges each.
However Sasuke was powered by Hagaromo's Yin Chakra at that point.


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## The Undying (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> That is one possibility, but then why do you think Naruto can use SPSM in the first half of VotE2, but never again after?



If you want me to be perfectly honest, Naruto might possess RSM even now and simply neglects to use it most of the time.

If he _did_ lose it after VOTE 2, I think it's probably because he didn't literally have the other eight Bijuu within him, just borrowed chakra which is temporary in most cases. It's possible that he used up the rest of that chakra at some point after his fight against Sasuke.



> So what you're saying is, Naruto and Sasuke had all the peices of the puzzle already, Hagaromo helped put them together. See, now this is something I would agree with, however some imply that it is entirely due to the power Hagaromo gave them.



If it was entirely due to Hagoromo, there wouldn't be any purpose in showing Sasuke receiving Hashirama's cells or showing Naruto receiving chakra from the other eight Bijuu. Technically the databook is right, but there are clearly other factors involved.



> I somewhat disagree with this, it's quite clear that those meteors are the size of small mountain ranges each.



Then at best it's inconsistent, since one panel showed them to be about the size of the Shinju trunk individually.


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Then at best it's inconsistent, since one panel showed them to be about the size of the Shinju trunk individually.


The Shinju is bigger than mountains though.


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## The Undying (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> The Shinju is bigger than mountains though.



But not big enough to dwarf the mountains in width, and certainly not bigger than an entire mountain range, which is what Madara's PS is capable of destroying.


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## Rai (Jul 26, 2015)

Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o head:





(BSM or RSM)100% Kurama's avatar head:



How RSM Naruto in Tailed beast mode was as big as Sasuke's PS in VOTE if the Kyuubi was at 50%?


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

ℜai said:


> Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o head:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We have seen Partial Kyuubi Avatar parts, like the Tails and Head be used at under Full Size which could explain the size of Naruto's Avatars Head, however we have never seen a Bijuu Avatar increase beyond the Bijuu's actual size.

We know:

1: Kurama shrunk to around 1/3 of it's size when it lost the Yin.
2: Sasuke's PS based on size comparisons to it's surrounding environment and characters is without a doubt much smaller than Madara's PS.
3: Madara's PS has shown to be comparable to 100% Kyuubi in size.
4: Sasuke's PS appears to be similar to Naruto's 50% Kyuubi in size.

However, Naruto didn't manifest the full Avatar in the Gaiden.
However, when you compare Naruto's BM 50% Avatar and his SPSM 50% Avatar, they appear to be comparable in size. If you really want me to, I can make a massive comparison showing how they are a comparable size, I've done it before and I'll do it again.
"I don't have it saved because I lost my picture archive."


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 26, 2015)

Hashirama annihilates with Buddha.


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## Blu-ray (Jul 26, 2015)

If chopping up those meteors wasn't enough of a feat to show that Hashi gets stomped like nobodies business, I don't know what is. 

It's utterly retarded to put Sasuke's PS on the level of Madara's by virtue of them being the same technique alone and nothing else, when it has indisputably superior feats and we know superior chakra>superior jutsu.

By that same logic receiving Naruto's chakra shouldn't have made Hinata's Kusho or Kakashi's Kamui stronger.

Sasuke not stomping here, let alone losing is a bad joke.


Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Madara had vote PS and needed Kurama just to compete with Hashirama and still lose. Hashi kills Sasuke mid difficulty.



Madara didn't get empowered by half of Hagoromo's chakra.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> PS is PS... Prove me wrong with a panel then.



Chidori is Chidori, yet used by Sasuke it can cut a Juubi Jin in half or vaporize a meteor. Kusho is Kusho, yet Kurama's chakra made that shit push a Juubi tail back. Bijuudama is a Bijuudama, but certainly no one thinks they're all the same all the time.



Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Hashi still wins what is Sasuke going to do against the sleep pollen forest?


How is that getting past Susano'o in the first place. Why can't he just burn it down?


Rocky said:


> I'm pretty sure his hand-out was that seal. It's really confusing, but there's definitely evidence for it.
> 
> 
> Sasuke's Rikudō Chidori never made an appearance again, nor did _any_ of Naruto's non-Kurama bijū techniques.
> ...


Here is Sasuke saying from his own mouth that their powers are due to being blessed by Rikudo's power.
Link removed


> I don't know why nobody wants to believe that the symbols themselves were the power up. SPSM & Rinnegan were awakened_ by Naruto & Sasuke_, not Hagoromo.



Maybe because both Rinnegan and SPSM were flat out said to be gifts from Hagoromo.

Link removed Here it is said from Sasuke's own mouth. Why people even bother inferring shit beyond this point, I don't know.



> EDIT: Here's the _link_ of Hagoromo saying he gave a huge amount of power away. Notice how he still has his Rinnegan & Senjutsu.



And why would Hagoromo have to physically lose those abilities in order to awaken it in others? Where was that stated or implied to be requirement in the first place?



Cryorex said:


> Once again, Databook = Trash, so I don't give a shit what it says.
> Sasuke would have awakened the Rinnegan without Hagaromo, the most Hagaromo could have possibly done is maybe quicken up the awakening of his Rinnegan so he'd have it straight away against Madara.
> 
> Sasuke would have the potential to awaken the Rinnegan on his own thanks to Hashirama and Kabuto.
> ...


That's nice. Here's Sasuke saying his and Naruto's power is from Hagoromo, contradiction your assertion.
Link removed

Also, your opinion is even more trash than the databook. Literally nowhere says or implies Hagoromo merely sped up the Rinnegan's awakening. *Nowhere.* As if anyone is gonna take your baseless headcanon over an official source.


> Shin schooled them after all, and no matter how much they underestimated Shin, no level of underestimation would have lead to the near victory Shin had on them if they were still being powered up by Hagaromo's Chakra.



Sasuke was flat out said to be weakened from travelling through Kaguya's dimensions to the point he couldn't even manifest MS. Travelling through her dimensions is something he couldn't even do back when he had the Yin seal.

Why are you blatantly ignoring context?


Cryorex said:


> Unless you believe the ENTIRE Rinnegan was from Hagaromo completely, which makes what Hashirama and Kabuto did pointless other than to just simply bring him back to life. Which THEN goes against the notion that you need Ashura & Indra Chakra to awaken the Rinnegan, as Sasuke only received Hagaromo's Yin Chakra.



Hagoromo said *his* chakra is the requisite for Rinnegan. Uniting Asura and Indra in turn is just to bring out his chakra, the actual catalyst. Sasuke received Hagoromo's chakra from the man himself.

Are you seriously implying his sons' chakra can accomplish what his cannot, even though the Rinnegan is his ability in the first place?


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## Raiken (Jul 26, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> Also, your opinion is even more trash than the databook. Literally nowhere says or implies Hagoromo merely sped up the Rinnegan's awakening. *Nowhere.* As if anyone is gonna take your baseless headcanon over an official source.


Are you slow? I said it's just maybe something you could think of, didn't say that was the way it was at all, just some random speculation that meant nothing.
Get over yourself and learn to read what someone is actually saying before typing a load of useless crap in a bad attempt to put my beliefs down.


VolatileSoul said:


> That's nice. Here's Sasuke saying his and Naruto's power is from Hagoromo, contradiction your assertion.
> _link_


Different translations imply that Sasuke did not say it like that at all.

That's the Viz translation, which has Sasuke simply saying they both benefited from "Six Paths Power", not actually referring to Hagaromo himself, unlike the Scan you linked.
Which could easily be in reference to the fact that Sasuke has Six Paths Chakra "Indra+Ashura Chakra" and Naruto has Six Paths Senjutsu "9-Bijuu Chakra+Senjutsu", two different areas of "Six Paths" power.


> Sasuke was flat out said to be weakened from travelling through Kaguya's dimensions to the point he couldn't even manifest MS. Travelling through her dimensions is something he couldn't even do back when he had the Yin seal.
> 
> Why are you blatantly ignoring context?


I'm hardly ignoring anything, even Base Sasuke with Hagaromo's Yin Chakra should be able to blitz Shin, if, he still had it.
He went at him with the 3TS and Amenotejikara, and still almost lost. So what, Shin > JJ Madara?
Despite how rusty or inhabited they may have been, no level of that could stop them from owning Shin if they still had Hagaromo's Chakra.


> Hagoromo said *his* chakra is the requisite for Rinnegan. Uniting Asura and Indra in turn is just to bring out his chakra, the actual catalyst. Sasuke received Hagoromo's chakra from the man himself.
> 
> Are you seriously implying his sons' chakra can accomplish what his cannot, even though the Rinnegan is his ability in the first place?


Yes Hagaromo's Chakra is a pre-requisite of the Rinnegan.
Now listen...

Ashura Inheritted *Hagaromo's Yang Chakra*.
Indra Inheritted *Hagaromo's Yin Chakra*.
When Ashura and Indra's Chakra are combined together, in other words, when *Hagaromo's Yin Chakra* and *Hagaromo's Yang Chakra* are combined together, you awaken Hagaromo's Complete Chakra and the Rinnegan as a result.
Sasuke was given *Hagaromo's Yin Chakra*, the same as what Indra inherited.

Sasuke awakened the Rinnegan thanks to his own Indra Chakra and the Ashura Chakra he gained from Hashirama/Kabuto.
Why do you think when Naruto and Sasuke combine their Yin and Yang Chakra it forms a Rinnegan technique?

So after I've proved you wrong on two counts, I guess your opinion is more trash than mine eah. 
No doubt you'll go against everything I've responded with, just so you can not be wrong but okay.


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## Bonly (Jul 26, 2015)

Hashi bout to catch a beating. Sasuke's Chidori was able to destroy a huge ass meteor pierce which means it has a crapload of power and range upon which Hashi wouldn't be expecting so when Sasuke does go to use, it's gonna be a GG.


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## KeyofMiracles (Jul 26, 2015)

Considering there's not one real reason to believe that Sasuke or Naruto lost their power up, Sasuke obliterates him.


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## Blu-ray (Jul 26, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> Are you slow? I said it's just maybe something you could think of, didn't say that was the way it was at all, just some random speculation, get over yourself and learn to read what someone is actually saying before spouting shit.


No you didn't. Can't you read what you yourself posted?



> Sasuke would have awakened the Rinnegan without Hagaromo, the most Hagaromo could have possibly done is maybe quicken up the awakening of his Rinnegan so he'd have it straight away against Madara.


Where the fuck did you say anything here about it being speculation here?



> Sasuke would have the potential to awaken the Rinnegan on his own thanks to Hashirama and Kabuto


.
Or here?


> Amenotejikara is simply Sasuke's Rinnegan Jutsu, just like Limbo Hengoku is Madara's


Or here?

Literally all of these where presented as statements, not speculation. You don't even know how to read what you yourself wrote.



> Anyway different translations imply that Sasuke did not say it like that at all.
> 
> 
> That's the Viz translation, which has Sasuke simply saying they both benefited from "Six Paths Power", not actually referring to Hagaromo himself, unlike the Scan you linked. Which could easily be in reference to the fact that Sasuke has Six Paths Chakra "Indra+Ashura Chakra" and Naruto has Six Paths Senjutsu "9-Bijuu Chakra+Senjutsu", two different areas of "Six Paths" power.


Sasuke referred to his Yin seal the exact same way you half wit. How does this imply a different meaning? What reason do we have to assume so in the first place?



> I'm hardly ignoring anything, even Base Sasuke with Hagaromo's Yin Chakra should be able to blitz Shin, if, he still had it.
> He went at him with the 3TS and Amenotejikara, and still almost lost. So what, Shin > JJ Madara?
> Despite how rusty or inhabited they may have been, no level of that could stop them from owning Shin if they still had Hagaromo's Chakra.


Except this isn't merely a base Sasuke. This is a Sasuke whose chakra is depleted to the point he can't even manifest MS, something he could spam long before Hagoromo's powerup.

What that even has to do with power is beyond me, they were caught off guard, which can happen no matter how powerful one is. See BZ stabbing Mads and Konohamaru taking down Naraka.



> Yes Hagaromo's Chakra is a pre-requisite of the Rinnegan.
> Now listen...
> 
> Ashura Inheritted *Hagaromo's Yang Chakra*.
> ...



Except Hagoromo never specified his "complete" chakra just his chakra, and his Yin still qualifies as such. That, and his son's Yin and Yang are not equivalent to his own.



> So after I've proved you wrong on two counts, I guess your opinion is more trash than mine eah.



Proved me wrong? Proof is concrete and unquestionable evidence. You've provided nothing close to the sort. 

I didn't even give an opinion.


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## Altair21 (Jul 26, 2015)

He's hopeless Volatile.  He's currently on my super ignore. Does wonders.


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## Raiken (Jul 27, 2015)

VolatileSoul said:


> No you didn't. Can't you read what you yourself posted?
> 
> 
> Where the fuck did you say anything here about it being speculation here?
> ...


You're a just solely posting in an attempt to flamebait and annoy me, so I really don't have any energy left to spend on someone as idiotic as you.

I could have made a massive reply of why you are talking utter crap that is actually completely incorrect, but you would just reply with the same shit again coming out of your slowed brain.

No point in talking to people like you and Altair.  The bolded especially showes you have no idea what you're on about.
You just don't want to accept Sasuke is a lot weaker than you think, get over it.


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## Amol (Jul 27, 2015)

I will just say again Naruto and Sasuke lost none of there power ups (only seals) and nothing I will repeat nothing that shown in Gaiden indicates otherwise .
So as common sense would tell us, Sasuke absolutely stomps Hashirama here .


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## Blu-ray (Jul 27, 2015)

Altair21 said:


> He's hopeless Volatile.  He's currently on my super ignore. Does wonders.


I'm joining you on that super ignore.


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## Zef (Jul 27, 2015)

Cryorex, why the hell are you arguing against canon?

Manga says something. Databook backs it up.
That's two legit sources against your opinion. There's nothing to debate.


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## Velocity (Jul 27, 2015)

Amol said:


> I will just say again Naruto and Sasuke lost none of there power ups (only seals) and nothing I will repeat nothing that shown in Gaiden indicates otherwise .
> So as common sense would tell us, Sasuke absolutely stomps Hashirama here .



Sasuke proved he still had his Rinnegan, so they definitely didn't lose any power. Did they get weaker? Of course. It's been ten years, hasn't it, since either of them actually fought? They may have trained a little here and there, sparred once in a while, but Sasuke has been investigating and Naruto has been stuck on Hokage duty. Neither of them has had to go all out against anyone in a decade, so obviously they'd be rusty.

Besides, who busts out Perfect Susano'o or massive Bijudama to take out a guy with only a Mangekyo Sharingan? You're talking powers and abilities honed to take out opponents like Madara or Kaguya, not some Danzo wannabe. So yeah, 27 year old Sasuke would indeed trash Hashirama. It's simply how the manga works - Naruto and Sasuke surpassed Hashirama and Madara ten years ago.


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## The Undying (Jul 27, 2015)

I'm surprised this thread is still going. There are two opposing sides of the debate as to what exactly these powerups entail, both with their own support _and_ inferences, and clearly neither side is convinced of the other viewpoint (myself included). It's best that we put this whole debate to rest as it obviously hasn't gone anywhere for four whole pages and likely won't go anywhere in the foreseeable future.

I also think there's a certain subconscious factor involved in the minds of a few posters here, but I won't delve too deeply into that.


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## Raiken (Jul 28, 2015)

Zef said:


> Cryorex, why the hell are you arguing against canon?
> 
> Manga says something. Databook backs it up.
> That's two legit sources against your opinion. There's nothing to debate.


The databook ambiguously supports it, the undying made a case for how it could easily be interpreted differently.
And while people say the Manga supports it, it doesn't really. The Manga just as easily supports my side.

I'm too tired to argue about this any more, people just end up being dicks with each other, flame-baiting each other and trying to make the oppositions argument look like trash instead of trying to support their own argument, kinda nasty eah.
It seems like every debate involving post VotE2 Naruto and Sasuke will turn into this crap.


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