# Darth Vader vs Mace Windu



## Fang (Nov 3, 2007)

Imagine that Obi-Wan was in Windu's position and by some twist of fate...defeated Sidious. The same MO goes with Anakin screaming no, slicing off his saber hand and beating Force Lightning out a window for a death hundreds of hundreds of stories below.

Anakin travels to Mustafar to deal with the Seperatist/Confederacy's Leadership. After killing them off, he faces Windu who has made the choice to destroy Anakin while Yoda faces off against Sidious.

How does this go?


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## Superrazien (Nov 3, 2007)

Im pretty sure Windu would own him.


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## Estrecca (Nov 3, 2007)

I agree. Windu ownz.

To explain my opinion, his lightsaber skills beat the hell out of Anakin's, Windu has apparently the most raw power of any Jedi Master (Yoda included) and his ability to negate Anakin's Dark Side attacks... 

Anakin goes down in pieces.


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## Sea Pirate (Nov 3, 2007)

I'm with Vader here.


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## Fang (Nov 3, 2007)

Estrecca said:


> I agree. Windu ownz.
> 
> To explain my opinion, his lightsaber skills beat the hell out of Anakin's, Windu has apparently the most raw power of any Jedi Master (Yoda included) and his ability to negate Anakin's Dark Side attacks...
> 
> Anakin goes down in pieces.



Anakin is still more powerful then him in the Force, he knows Force Crush, Force Choke as well. He's pretty damn fast and he's a master of Ataru, Djem So. You honestly think the Chosen One doesn't stand a chance against Windu?


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## Estrecca (Nov 3, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> You honestly think the Chosen One doesn't stand a chance against Windu?



Yes. Chosen One or not, Windu has thirty years of experience over Anakin. And before you bring Dooku, the Count had just used a good deal of his energies in getting rid of Kenobi and Anakin was able to use his greater physical strength to overpower his Makashi. 

Against Mace Windu, whose entire fighting style is designed around fighting Darksiders, Anakin isn't overpowering zilch. And while Anakin might be somewhat stronger and resistant, due to being younger, the difference is too small to even the odds.


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## Fang (Nov 3, 2007)

Not even if he embraces the Darkside and tries using Force Powers against him?


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## ZE (Nov 3, 2007)

Mace is probably almost as powerful as Yoda. He almost killed Grievious with just a force push while Obi wan had to sweat a lot to beat him. And Mace dealt with Papatine´s lighting like it was nothing and was about to kill the sith lord, Yoda never had that chance.


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## Estrecca (Nov 3, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Not even if he embraces the Darkside and tries using Force Powers against him?



Windu countered every Sith power that Palpatine summoned against him in the novelization. Do you really thing that a freshly turned Anakin is going to do better than Palps when even Obi-Wan was able to match Anakin's Force attacks blow for blow?


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## FireEel (Nov 3, 2007)

ZE said:


> Mace is probably almost as powerful as Yoda. He almost killed Grievious with just a force push while Obi wan had to sweat a lot to beat him. And Mace dealt with Papatine?s lighting like it was nothing and was about to kill the sith lord, Yoda never had that chance.



The only thing I do not agree with is how u said Mace nearly killed Grevious, but the rest of your points I like


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## Rated R Superstar (Nov 3, 2007)

ZE said:


> Mace is probably almost as powerful as Yoda. He almost killed Grievious with just a force push while Obi wan had to sweat a lot to beat him. And Mace dealt with Papatine?s lighting like it was nothing and was about to kill the sith lord, Yoda never had that chance.



Yoda never had that chance, you're correct. But if that fight had continued, Yoda woulda owned Palpatine. If you watch the fight carefully, Yoda pretty much had the upper hand. He struggled a little, while Sidious struggled alot. Anyway, if Anakin fought Mace, i'd say Anakin might lose. Mace has the experience to outsmart anakin, just like obi wan did.


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## ZE (Nov 3, 2007)

FireEel said:


> The only thing I do not agree with is how u said Mace nearly killed Grevious, but the rest of your points I like



Maybe you didn?t watch the animated version. Mace was the reason Grivious was coughing during the entire movie. It was Mace who with his force push crushed Grivious chest.


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## Fang (Nov 3, 2007)

Clone Wars contradicts LoE. So its debatable.


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## NarutoWinsByDefault (Nov 3, 2007)

I still say Windu would win, he defeated Anakins master..Anakin was not a master at that point....he was learning..


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## Fang (Nov 3, 2007)

The same Anakin that slaughtered Battlemaster Cin Drallig " The Troll" of the Jedi Order with a single pivot and slash to the shoulder?


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## Superrazien (Nov 3, 2007)

Well Put it this way Obi-Wan and Anakin were about dead even. I don't think Obi-Wan could have beaten Mace Windu, so I doubt Anakin could. Unless we are talking the Revenge of the Sith Video game, I think thats the only place he could beat him.


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## Rated R Superstar (Nov 4, 2007)

Superrazien said:


> Well Put it this way Obi-Wan and Anakin were about dead even. I don't think Obi-Wan could have beaten Mace Windu, so I doubt Anakin could. Unless we are talking the Revenge of the Sith Video game, I think thats the only place he could beat him.



I think Anakin was slightly stronger than Obi wan. He kinda had the upper hand in the battle. And please, dont ever bring up revenge of the sith video game ever in a battledome debate ever again. LOL.


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## Superrazien (Nov 4, 2007)

Rated R Superstar said:


> I think Anakin was slightly stronger than Obi wan. He kinda had the upper hand in the battle. And please, dont ever bring up revenge of the sith video game ever in a battledome debate ever again. LOL.



lol ok sorry, I kind of had fun with the fighting game though since its like the only SW lightsaber fighting game. Anyways it appeared Anakin had the upper hand because Obi-Wan uses a defensive style, there for for most of the fight he was blocking and parrying waiting for good times to strike.


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## RoomBurnerZ (Nov 4, 2007)

Mace Windu. This guy has a lot of experience. If he was able to fight on par with Palpatine, Anakin is no biggie here.


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## Butō Rengoob (Nov 4, 2007)

_Mace's experience wins over a noob of the dark side. That's how it's gonna go._


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## masterriku (Nov 4, 2007)

We would not even have this debate if mace had just kill the palpantine quickly instead of talked to anakin shame on you samuel jackson shame.


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## Fang (Nov 4, 2007)

Palpatine could've killed Windu when he pivoted his saber away and nearly pushed it into the shoulder with Windu's own saber. Then again later he later pushed Windu's blade to the side and held his saber at his throat for over two or three seconds before Windu's shock subsided.

Right.


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## Wuzzman (Nov 4, 2007)

hmmm we are talking about Darth Vader, not new born into the darkside Anakin...


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## Superrazien (Nov 4, 2007)

^ I am pretty Sure new born darkside Anakin could beat his older self in the orginal trilogy, so I don't think it matters either way its Mace FTW.


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## Lord Genome (Nov 4, 2007)

Mace wins with his purple saber of leetness.


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## Fang (Nov 4, 2007)

Anakin soon after his injuries on Mustafar without a lightsaber took out six Jedi Masters and Knights.


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## Lord Genome (Nov 4, 2007)

He did? Which book was it?

Anyway just so I have a reason, I think he would win just because Obi-Won was about even with Anakin, and Mace>Obi won.


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## Fang (Nov 4, 2007)

It was in a comic.


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## Lord Genome (Nov 4, 2007)

Oh.

Which comic?


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## Fang (Nov 4, 2007)

Star Wars: Purge.


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## Lord Genome (Nov 4, 2007)

Sweet. Ill have to look for it, thanks!

*calls star wars obsessed uncle*


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## Deleted member 45015 (Nov 5, 2007)

> Anakin soon after his injuries on Mustafar without a lightsaber took out six Jedi Masters and Knights.



He also got the living shit beaten out of him in the process and nearly died at least twice fighting them....

He got his hand cut off, lightsaber was disabled, was cut once or twice, nearly lost his head at the end...he was only saved by Vaders Fist or he'd be royally fucked.


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## TH4N4T0S (Nov 5, 2007)

ZE said:
			
		

> Mace is probably almost as powerful as Yoda.


 
Yes. It is said that the only Jedi capable of defeating Mace in battle are Dooku and Yoda.



			
				Shiroi Kiba said:
			
		

> Palpatine could've killed Windu when he pivoted his saber away and nearly pushed it into the shoulder with Windu's own saber. Then again later he later pushed Windu's blade to the side and held his saber at his throat for over two or three seconds before Windu's shock subsided.
> 
> Right.


 
Palpatine actually had the upper hand in his battle with Windu, and this was highly implicated in the novel. He purposefully slowed down upon sensing Anakin's arrival, and Windu sensed this.

About Vader vs Windu

Vader, a neophyte dark side adept who, with all his anger, lost to Obi-Wan, was extremely strong in the force, but his arrogance and his lack of experience might have contributed to his loss. Given that Windu is able to sense the enemy's shatterpoints/weaknesses, I believe it would be easy for him to exploit Vader's shatterpoints as they were explicit.

I believe Windu would win.


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## Superrazien (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Anakin soon after his injuries on Mustafar without a lightsaber took out six Jedi Masters and Knights.



Yeah but I bet if he was never in his Vader suit he could of took out even more.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 5, 2007)

Gaelek_13 said:


> He also got the living shit beaten out of him in the process and nearly died at least twice fighting them....
> 
> He got his hand cut off, lightsaber was disabled, was cut once or twice, nearly lost his head at the end...he was only saved by Vaders Fist or he'd be royally fucked.



That cortosis sword is a bitch.


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## Ax_ (Nov 5, 2007)

Why does it say Darth Vader in this thread while everyone is talking about Anakin?
I know that Anakin will become DV and all, but if we are talking about Dart here, should we assume that he has grown at least a little better in using the dark side?


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Palpatine is supposed to be more powerful than Anakin ("He _will become_ more powerful than either of us...") and Mace bent Palp over and sodomized him. 

Stomp.



Ax_ said:


> Why does it say Darth Vader in this thread while everyone is talking about Anakin?
> I know that Anakin will become DV and all, but if we are talking about Dart here, should we assume that he has grown at least a little better in using the dark side?



Anakin was Darth Vader for a short time before getting wtfpwned and put in the suit, but suit Vader was less powerful than human Vader. He lost a lot of power after losing half his body.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Really, Windu more powerful then Palpatine? The same Palpatine who twice could've killed him despite his skill with Vaapad?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 5, 2007)

No, Mace and Palpatine were fairly even in their duel until Mace's shatterpoint ability gave him the edge against Palpatine.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Really, Windu more powerful then Palpatine? The same Palpatine who twice could've killed him despite his skill with Vaapad?



Did you not watch Ep III or what? I can understand if you didn't, given how much it sucked, but Mace raped Palp hard. There wasn't much contest.


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## Ax_ (Nov 5, 2007)

Wait, what?

If that was so, why did Palpatine walk out of that battle alive?


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Ax_ said:


> Wait, what?
> 
> If that was so, why did Palpatine walk out of that battle alive?


I'm sure it didn't have anything to do with Anakin cutting off Mace's hand while Mace was occupied.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> Did you not watch Ep III or what? I can understand if you didn't, given how much it sucked, but Mace raped Palp hard. There wasn't much contest.



Freeze frame shot of the first part of Windu and Palpatine's duel on Youtube.

What's this?





Two or so seconds Palpatine is simply holding his blade to Windu's throat/sternum. Yeah, and at any point he could've killed Windu.


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## soupnazi235 (Nov 5, 2007)

Why are we even talking about the epic fail that is Star Wars 1-3? 
Oh, and Windu would stomp all over the newly evil Anakin.

Edit: Sorry Kiba, I just watched that clip again, and you took that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of context. Clearly you have some bias towards Palpatine, because he was outmaneuvered in that fight big time.


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## Ax_ (Nov 5, 2007)

But, come on, what about before that?
As far as I saw it, they were even all the way to the end.
Nothing more.

Now, in regards to Anakin (even though the topic says Darth Vader) against Mace, Mace stomps.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> Did you not watch Ep III or what? I can understand if you didn't, given how much it sucked, but Mace raped Palp hard. There wasn't much contest.



Where the hell are you getting this?  Even in the movie, both were evenly matched until the part after the window breaks.  Mace then used his shatterpoint ability to gain an edge.

On a side-note, I don't believe suited Vader lost his potential.  Rather, his power growth got severely reduced and couldn't progress as quickly as he did before.  This could be due to his injuries or perhaps some mental blocks Vader has put on himself.  Or a combination of both.  Palpatine himself says in Rise of Darth Vader that the power resides in the will, not the flesh.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

soupnazi235 said:


> Why are we even talking about the epic fail that is Star Wars 1-3?
> Oh, and Windu would stomp all over the newly evil Anakin.
> 
> Edit: Sorry Kiba, I just watched that clip again, and you took that waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of context. Clearly you have some bias towards Palpatine, because he was outmaneuvered in that fight big time.



No he was not, unless your saying that Palpatine was not holding back simply for Anakin's benefit. It clearly showcases that he could've killed Windu prior to the Shatterpoint in his state room at the window edge.

You have to be fucking joking or a troll to believe that Palpatine wasn't playing with Windu after holding his saber at his neck for over two seconds while doing nothing else. Then letting Windu on purpose batting it away.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Freeze frame shot of the first part of Windu and Palpatine's duel on Youtube.
> 
> What's this?
> 
> Two or so seconds Palpatine is simply holding his blade to Windu's throat/sternum. Yeah, and at any point he could've killed Windu.


Nice try, but no. Palp tried a thrust, and Mace withdrew, which is a fucking noob thing to do in a swordfight, but worked in this case. He was outside the Palp's range the whole time, and then countered with a right upward slash, parrying the thrust.

Or, if that's too complicated for you - why didn't he kill Windu then?

Oh shit, he would have if he could have, just like the other 3 jedi who he just killed without hesitation.

Nice try.



> Where the hell are you getting this? Even in the movie, both were evenly matched until the part after the window breaks. Mace then used his shatterpoint ability to gain an edge.


Eh, I'm being biased.

Evenly matched, then. But Palp still > Anakin. Point stands.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Does it not occur to your thick skull that Palpatine was holding back against Windu to frame him to use Anakin against the Jedi? OH NOES HARD CONCEPTZ!!!!!!!!!!


Did it occur to you Anakin wasn't even in the building yet?



> Oh noes! Anakin has no personal connections to Master Fitso, Sasae Tinn or Agen Kolar!


lol whut. He doesn't to Windu, either. They talked like... what, 3 times? And they were kinda pissed off at each other because of what they represented to each other - Palp's interference and Jedi council arrogance.



> Nice trolling.


Accuse me of trolling again and I'm reporting you. ^^
I'd deal with you myself, but I'm not exactly unbiased.


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## soupnazi235 (Nov 5, 2007)

Yea Blue did it for me. Sorry Kiba, but I think you're wrong on this. Palpatine was out of range and thrusted to get in range, but Windu deflected it. There was "fight ending moment" there at all.
Edit:
Guys tone down the trolling, there's not point in reverting to personal attacks here. This is a good argument, so let's try to keep it that way please?


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> Did it occur to you Anakin wasn't even in the building yet?



Does it occur to you that Palpatine had manipulated the entire situation since forcing the Jedi Council to send Obi-Wan after Grievous and Yoda to the Wookies so that only Windu, Tinn, Kolar, Fitso and Anakin and Shaak Ti are the only high ranking Jedi left to safeguard Coruscant and the Jedi Temple?

Does it not occur to you that Windu and Anakin have severe problems with each other and do not respect one or another? Does it not occur to you that without Obi-Wan or Yoda to hold Anakin to a leash, Windu would have to foce his hand once he learned of Palpatine's treachery?

And once Windu and the other Masters entered 505 Republica, Anakin had already left to go to Palpatine and Windu. By the time of Kolar and Tinn's death, Anakin was already in the building and he was walking through the stateroom shortly after Fitso's death.



> lol whut. He doesn't to Windu, either. They talked like... what, 3 times? And they were kinda pissed off at each other because of what they represented to each other - Palp's interference and Jedi council arrogance.



What are you talking about? Palpatine made it so that Anakin had no emotional constraints in the form of Yoda or Obi-Wan to offset his own influence. And he counted on the fact that Windu and Anakin borderline hated each other.

As for the fight, nearly three seconds he's holding the saber to Windu's neck before letting him bat it away.



> Accuse me of trolling again and I'm reporting you. ^^
> I'd deal with you myself, but I'm not exactly unbiased.



We know enough about you. I'm not the one trolling here, spouting nonsense not supported by the films or the novels. ^^


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## soupnazi235 (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> As for the fight, nearly three seconds he's holding the saber to Windu's neck before letting him bat it away.
> 
> We know enough about you. I'm not the one trolling here, spouting nonsense not supported by the films or the novels. ^^



CRUISE CONTROL TIME: HE DIDN'T LET HIM BAT IT AWAY HE ACTUALLY THRUSTED BECAUSE HE WAS *OUT OF FUCKING RANGE* AND WINDU COUNTERED AT THAT POINT. I'd tell you to watch it again, but you've probably seen it many times and have made your mind up on it.

As for the second point, I know this isn't directed at me, but chill out dude, no need to get personal here.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Does it occur to you that Palpatine had manipulated the entire situation since forcing the Jedi Council to send Obi-Wan after Grievous and Yoda to the Wookies so that only Windu, Tinn, Kolar, Fitso and Anakin and Shaak Ti are the only high ranking Jedi left to safeguard Coruscant and the Jedi Temple?


No. 10characters


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## Wuzzman (Nov 5, 2007)

Palpatine planed this from the beginning. He knew Anakin would tell Windu about him being a sith lord. He knew that if he told Anakin that he had the power to stop death itself that Anakin would eventually choose Palpatine and return to him. He timed it so perfectly that Windu was fighting him at the same time Anakin was heading toward his office. He may not have planned every thrust and carry, but he sure as hell wasn't fighting that fight for the hell of it or under the chance that he would lose/die. What happened during that fight was no accident and by no means did Palpatine lose control of that fight. Notice Palpatine was running from Yoda, but he stood and fought Windu.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Wuzzman said:


> Palpatine planed this from the beginning. He knew Anakin would tell Windu about him being a sith lord. He knew that if he told Anakin that he had the power to stop death itself that Anakin would eventually choose Palpatine and return to him. He timed it so perfectly that Windu was fighting him at the same time Anakin was heading toward his office.


That is completely, utterly absurd.

Timed it? So he had a little button that says "Anakin chooses the Dark Side" under his desk, and pressed it when Mace walked in?

Seriously. Come on. If he'd planned it, he would have had a plastic surgeon standing by.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> No. 10characters



So your basically telling me that you completely ignored the signifigance of the fact that Anakin's message that he should be the one sent after Grievous was planned because Yoda, Windu and the High Council would of course reject his plan? Because it's pretty obvious after the Second Battle of Coruscant that Windu, Yoda and the other Council members did not trust Palpatine.

And you never noticed that Windu and Anakin hate each other?


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## Ax_ (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> That is completely, utterly absurd.
> 
> Timed it? So he had a little button that says "Anakin chooses the Dark Side" under his desk, and pressed it when Mace walked in?
> 
> Seriously. Come on. If he'd planned it, he would have had a plastic surgeon standing by.



Isn't that what is commonly called a Xanatos Roulette?
Or something like that.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> That is completely, utterly absurd.
> 
> Timed it? So he had a little button that says "Anakin chooses the Dark Side" under his desk, and pressed it when Mace walked in?
> 
> Seriously. Come on. If he'd planned it, he would have had a plastic surgeon standing by.



The entire situation prior to the confrontation between Palpatine, Windu and Skywalker should make it clear that Anakin was already his once Obi-Wan and Yoda were away from Coruscant.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Ax_ said:


> Isn't that what is commonly called a Xanatos Roulette?
> Or something like that.



Yes, exactly. Except in this case Palp showed no sign he planned it out at all, which is one of the cornerstones of this particular media idiom.

"Just as planned!"


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)




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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Whenever Anakin was scolded or reprimanded by Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu or anyone else after becoming an apprentice to Obi-Wan; he was always comforted and praised by Palpatine. He always took Anakin's side, always poured compassion and love on to him regardless of what he did.

Anakin only told Palpatine about the Tuskin Raider massacre on Tatooine during AoTC to Palpatine, not Obi-Wan, not Yoda, not Windu, not any Jedi. Did Palpatine get angry? No. He even said that Anakin was justified in his actions.

He was always the cornerstone of Anakin's emotional and spiritual foundation.

@Blue, internet memes are not a compelling way to win a debate.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Shiroi Kiba said:


> Whenever Anakin was scolded or reprimanded by Obi-Wan, Yoda, Windu or anyone else after becoming an apprentice to Obi-Wan; he was always comforted and praised by Palpatine. He always took Anakin's side, always poured compassion and love on to him regardless of what he did.
> 
> Anakin only told Palpatine about the Tuskin Raider massacre on Tatooine during AoTC to Palpatine, not Obi-Wan, not Yoda, not Windu, not any Jedi. Did Palpatine get angry? No. He even said that Anakin was justified in his actions.
> 
> ...



I'll have you know I just made that myself. 

Anyway, I agree with what you said. It doesn't explain why Palp decided to get utterly pwned and fucked up by Mace, leaving it up to Anakin to decide whether he lives or dies.

Do you see him leaving his fate in some young dumbass's hands? I don't.


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## Dream Brother (Nov 5, 2007)

I agree with Blue on this. Windu genuinely beat Palpatine, in my opinion, although your theory isn’t completely unreasonable/illogical Shiroi -- I just don’t think it’s right.



> And wow, it takes Mace Windu nearly three seconds to parry a thrust that was held to his neck! Your not making any sense. He was holding back for Anakin. Windu was the cataylst for Anakin's fall with Palpatine letting him get the upperhand in the fight.



I just rewatched that scene and I don’t really think that you have a valid point here. Windu had his arms outstretched as he backed away slowly and it seems fairly obvious that he deliberately didn’t return to his guarding stance -- he wasn’t off balance, he wasn’t hurt in any way, and he didn’t look intimidated either, and so I’d reason that he left himself open deliberately. Why? Perhaps to draw an attack from Palpatine, slip it/parry instantly and then counter with something of his own, which is actually a reasonable (if risky) tactic to employ, but it works especially well if one has lightning reflexes/speed, and I’ve seen it done more than once in real life. Palpatine, however (being also highly experienced) didn’t take the bait, and so Windu engaged once more after a few seconds. That’s what I reckon happened.

However, I think we all may be reading too heavily into this, to be honest. It’s a fight scene that’s designed to _entertain_ first and foremostly, and so for all we know the whole ‘Windu backing up with an open guard’ scene could have just been thrown in just to get some dramatic posing in there and also pause the action for a few seconds to whet the audiences appetite. Remember Darth Maul using butterfly twists/kicks, handless kip-ups and flowery/elaborate Wushu stances in Episode One? Such moves were thrown in for _aesthetics only_, because Lucas wants to make it an exciting battle, a spectacle that would drop some jaws -- not every single thrust, parry or movement has a decade of thought put into it, as you seem to assume with your evaluation of the Mace/Palpatine scene. Personally, I would put more stock in the book’s account of the action, because --

1) There’s no pressure to entertain visually with flowery movements/dramatic posturing, because the reader is looking at _words_ rather than live people. 

2) Lucas himself went over every single line of Stover’s book more than once, and so everything there is 100% approved by the big dog.

And the book, if I recall, doesn’t imply that Palpatine purposefully lost the fight at all. 

You can’t string along (or hold back against) a fighter of Windu’s immense quality, no matter _who_ you are -- I feel that the Vaapad style combined with Windu sensing a shatterpoint genuinely defeated Palpatine. 

Look at this, taken straight from the passage that describes the end of the duel --



> _He could feel the end of this battle approaching, and so could the blur of Sith he faced; in the force, the shadow had become a pulsar of fear. Easily, almost effortlessly, he turned the shadow’s fear into a weapon: he angled the battle to bring them both out onto the window ledge.
> 
> Out in the wind. Out with the lightning. Out on a rain-slicked ledge above a half-kilometer drop. Out where the shadow’s fear made it hesitate. Out where the shadow’s fear turned some of its force-powered speed into a force-powered grip on the slippery permacrete. Out where Mace could flick his blade in one precise arc and slash the shadow’s lightsaber in half_.
> 
> -- *Revenge of the Sith, p331/332*



I remind you again, Lucas himself went over every line.


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## soupnazi235 (Nov 5, 2007)

Wow Dream Brother, that was detailed, well-written, and ultimately, practical 
+rep for that intelligent, well-organized post.


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Blue said:


> Do you see him leaving his fate in some young dumbass's hands? I don't.



No game of dejarik can be won without pawns..." 
―Kreia

Palpatine showed his hand, made a gamble and won at the end of the day because of his belief in Anakin. He let Windu take the advantage after he allowed his saber to be knocked away and then only lost control after Windu gained insight with his Shatterpoints.

Which was after Anakin was already in the building.

@Dream, it has been debated heavily that Windu was only allowed to sense Palpatine's fear to throw off the preception that Anakin would sense it as well. He was already in the building and passing Fitso's severed head by the point that Palpatine chased into Palpatine's personal office.


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## Blue (Nov 5, 2007)

Thanks, Dream. I don't have half your patience or knowledge. ^^


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## Clouds-Are-Nice (Nov 5, 2007)

I went over it and I have to agree with Dream Brother.

I'll post another part of the novelization that supports what Dream Brother wrote; the novelization clearly says that Mace + Vapaad is Palpatine's equal in combat against him and that he had Shatterpoint to tip the scales in his favor on top of that.


*Spoiler*: __ 






			
				Star Wars Episode III Novelization said:
			
		

> Vaapad is a channel for darkness, and that darkness flowed both ways. He accepted the furious speed of the Sith Lord, drew the shadow's rage and power into his inmost center?
> And let it fountain out again.
> He reflected the fury upon its source as a lightsaber redirects a blaster bolt.
> There was a time when Mace Windu had feared the power of the dark; there was a time when he had feared the darkness in himself. But the Clone Wars had given him a gift of understanding: on a world called Haruun Kal, he had faced his darkness andhad learned that the power of darkness is not to be feared.
> ...


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Which is clearly contradicted by the film. He was held to the point of Palpatine's saber in the film and he let him back up. The Shatterpoints don't even come to play until after Anakin has entered the building and landed his starfighter.


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## Wuzzman (Nov 5, 2007)

Starwar fans usually hold the book as cannon more then the movie. Either way, if Palpatine wouldn't have left that battle up to chance. It was the key to his very plans. If that plan went wrong he would have lost Anakin, any hope of gaining his Empire, and did I mention his life? 

1. Palpatine disfigurement allowed the Senate to believe Palpatine story for face value. If they had investigated the scene, they would have clearly saw evidence of a lightsaber dual and Mace being hit by force lightning, and 3 dead Jedi. Now either Palpatine a jedi, Palpatine was only targeted by rogue Jedi within the order, or Palpatine is lying about something major. Either one of those points could have easily jeopardized Palpatine chances of gaining authorization to issue Order 66. 

2. Palpatine precog is so good that it messed up Yoda's precog THATS how far Palpatine   thinks ahead. Palpatine didn't even bother trying to fight Yoda, he just ran. Don't you think Palpatine would have considered Yoda a really BIG threat to his empire? Why didn't Palpatine not risk their fight? While Mace windu considered a master at light saber combat by even Yoda himself, he fought in a cramped office room by a big window?


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## Butō Rengoob (Nov 5, 2007)

_Dream Brother pretty much won the thread. You can't argue with his points._


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## Fang (Nov 5, 2007)

Wuzzman said:


> 1. Palpatine disfigurement allowed the Senate to believe Palpatine story for face value. If they had investigated the scene, they would have clearly saw evidence of a lightsaber dual and Mace being hit by force lightning, and 3 dead Jedi. Now either Palpatine a jedi, Palpatine was only targeted by rogue Jedi within the order, or Palpatine is lying about something major. Either one of those points could have easily jeopardized Palpatine chances of gaining authorization to issue Order 66.



Except that Sith'as establishes that was Palpatine's real face after years of abusing the power of the darkside.


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## TH4N4T0S (Nov 6, 2007)

Dream Brother said:


> I agree with Blue on this. Windu genuinely beat Palpatine, in my opinion, although your theory isn’t completely unreasonable/illogical Shiroi -- I just don’t think it’s right . . . . . .


 
As your points hold much weight and are credible, they do not dismiss the big possibility that Palpatine's defeat was necessary to draw Anakin one step closer to the dark side, and that Palpatine needed to use, plan or manipulate whatever he could to ensure that Anakin would resort to him and to the dark side.

If Palpatine had defeated Windu, Anakin wouldn't have cut Windu's hand off and betrayed Windu, and he would miss one of the milestones of being a Sith and of walking further to the dark side. The events that transpired in the chancellor's office contributed to Anakin's turn to the dark side (as Anakin betrayed his compatriot and chose to obey a Sith Lord), and Palpatine might have planned them. 

The book even hinted that Palpatine foresaw the arrival of some Jedi to arrest him, and that alone implies that he planned for what should happen. When Windu sensed Anakin's arrival, he concurrently sensed that Palpatine was slowing down, seemingly hesitating to go for the kill. This may imply that Palpatine planned his defeat. (Though Windu's ability to sense shatterpoints gave him an edge, Palpatine's "slowing down" surely gave Windu a bigger advantage. Nevertheless, it was too late when Windu sensed Palpatine's true shatterpoint - Anakin.)

I believe that nothing can actually prove that possibility, but the possibility is logical and it shouldn't be rejected unless Lucas himself answers everything succinctly.



Shiroi Kiba said:


> Except that Sith'as establishes that was Palpatine's real face after years of abusing the power of the darkside.


 
I wonder if Palpatine's disfigurement was because of the Force Lightning. I never saw anyone to be disfigured in any way by Force Lightning. I believe Palpatine was merely using a masking technique which might have been destroyed upon his use of a dark side power or by the Force Lighting which rebounded to his face. This may explain why even the Jedi were having a difficulty in finding Darth Sidious while he was often just a few feet from them (refering to Darth Traya as she was able to hide her "evil side" almost throughout the entire timeline of SWKoTOR II).


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## maximilyan (Nov 7, 2007)

Estrecca said:


> Yes. Chosen One or not, Windu has thirty years of experience over Anakin. And before you bring Dooku, the Count had just used a good deal of his energies in getting rid of Kenobi and Anakin was able to use his greater physical strength to overpower his Makashi.
> 
> Against Mace Windu, whose entire fighting style is designed around fighting Darksiders, Anakin isn't overpowering zilch. And while Anakin might be somewhat stronger and resistant, due to being younger, the difference is too small to even the odds.



 windu is the man.


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## Boromir (Nov 7, 2007)

Samuel Jackson is serious fuckin' business!

The only reason he died is 'cus Anakin back-electrocuted him


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## shinjojin (Nov 7, 2007)

I going for Darth Vader!

GO VADER!!


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## Ceria (Aug 24, 2010)

If it weren't for anakin's butthurt obsession with "saving padme" Mace would have killed palpatine and the empire would've never happened.


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 24, 2010)

Why did you bump this? And Sidious lost because he threw the fight, his shatterpoint was Anakin whom he trusted enough to save him. He also needed Vapaad just to match Sidious's speed. No Anakin=Windu fighting a serious Sidious, Windu is more comparable to Dooku and only does better due to Vapaad+Shatterpoints. Yoda>Windu as well.

*Saber Skills*: Anakin was already better than Obi wan since episode II, he would have beaten Kenobi had he not been so hot headed, he had more stamina afterall and would have broken through the defense eventually. He also did make Dooku look like nothing, he did pwn Cin Drallig as well. As Vader he got better and better, his style is a customised style of his own that combines all the styles with his suit's weight and strength. He's trained under Sidious, fought multiple Jedi and trained others as well. He gave starkiller some trouble in Sabers as well. A prodigious swordsman with so much experience will only be much greater than his younger self who made Dooku's experience look like nothing. Vaapad is not that useful here, Vader's suit alone grants him enough strength to make up for the force, he would'nt need to use too much darkside power so Windu will be left with only his own and the little amounts Vader will use. 90% of it will be the suit. He also did beat Maul in CQC. He's also more likely to mix TK into his duel than Anakin or Mace.

*Force output*: Vader on his noobish time in the suit as a display of dark side power shook that durasteel structure with a force scream. He has force choked Xizor casually from across light years. His force grip is described by Bobba as being "As hard as steel" despite him being used to the force attacks. He's more into mindraping/probing than Anakin. He can still blitz Jedi so he's not as slow as he looks or people think. His force mastery is also good overall. More so than Windu, the refinement required to activate a choke across light years then focus it onto a single room and single person without killing them is insane.


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## cnorwood (Aug 24, 2010)

sam jackson tells vader he dont wanna see"no more mothafuckin snakes on this mothafuckin plane" so vader goes to get them off, too bad its a terrorist plane.  gg vader


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## Tranquil Fury (Aug 24, 2010)

> The Dark Lord was already moving. The red blade of his lightsaber flared into life, casting bloody shadows across the room. There was no discussion. He offered no threats. It was clear he intended only to complete what he had failed to finish on Corellia. The apprentice knew exactly what to expect. They had dueled many times before. He had learned how to fight at the hands of the man in the black suit-the man whose face had been forever hidden from him. He knew the intimacies of his *refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi*. *He had fended off many wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight*. He had borne the brunt of many psychological battles.
> He thought he was ready-and so the sheer severity of the opening blow took him by surprise.
> *A simple double stroke, up and then down, it contained enough power to jar his wrists and shoulders and very nearly disarm him completely. The collision of their lightsabers was blinding. He staggered backward and found himself at the center of a telekinetic storm. His Master seized on his momentary weakness and hurled missiles at him from all sides, hoping to keep him off his guard. For a moment, it worked*
> Then the apprentice straightened and, with a sweep of his left arm, blew the missiles away. *He blocked a savage slash that would have cut him in two and another that would have lifted his head clean from his shoulders. Ducking low, he stabbed for his Master's belly then flicked the tip of his lightsaber upward, hoping to catch the chin of Darth Vader's helmet and spear him through the throat. The red lightsaber blocked the blow, but only barely*. They parted for a moment to assess the brief exchange and circled each other warily.
> ...



Vader was<him but he still put up a fight against a serious Starkiller. 

I'm not saying Mace can't win, his shatterpoints could give him the weak points of Vader's armor FTW but it's not a stomp and Vader could still have a chance.


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