# Cyclops vs. Itachi



## Havoc (Aug 18, 2006)

Cyclops w/o visors.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 18, 2006)

Without?

Ouch.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2006)

Itachi would have to look into his eyes, which would be impossible as doing so would get him vaporized.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 18, 2006)

I assume Itachi can kill him without that skill


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## Havoc (Aug 18, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I assume Itachi can kill him without that skill




He could just run around looking in every direction.


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## Hiruma (Aug 18, 2006)

w/o visor? Didn't he shoot blasts at Juggernaut powerful enough to level a small moon?


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## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2006)

Yes, he did. CBG can probably confirm it as well.


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## Vicious (Aug 18, 2006)

do u guys think cyclops pyshicaly stronger and faster then itachi??? because he isnt, cyclops would just blasts itachi it would be probly a kage bunshin and itachi would probly have a kunai in his throat or eye before he knows it!
speed itachi>cyclops
strength itachi=/cyclops??dont know
and add many jutsu's to it thats a 1 dead baboque cyclops please!!


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 18, 2006)

4thandnaruto said:
			
		

> do u guys think cyclops pyshicaly stronger and faster then itachi??? because he isnt, cyclops would just blasts itachi it would be probly a kage bunshin and itachi would probly have a kunai in his throat or eye before he knows it!
> speed itachi>cyclops
> strength itachi=/cyclops??dont know
> and add many jutsu's to it thats a 1 dead baboque cyclops please!!



Not that easy. I don't remember Itachi having any kind of superhuman strength, so he can't just rip Scott's arms off and beat him with them. And would Itachi be able to get near scott. Not likely


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## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2006)

> Cyclops seems to possess an uncanny sense of "trigonometry", in this sense used to describe his observation of objects around himself, and the angles found between surfaces of these objects. With this ability, Cyclops has repeatedly demonstrated the ability to fire his optic blasts in such a way as to cause them to ricochet and/or reflect off those objects in a trajectory to his liking. This is commonly called a "banked shot" when applied to this talent. Cyclops has been observed causing beams to reflect from over a dozen surfaces in the course of one blast, and still hit his intended target accurately. It is possible he may possess a sense of superhumanly enhanced spatial awareness that allows him to perform these feats as well.
> 
> Cyclops also has extensive training in martial arts and unarmed combat, holding black belts in judo and aikido. His level of skill is sufficient to defeat six normal men with his eyes closed and he has in the past held his own against such dangerous enemies as Wolverine and Ghost Rider.





> Uncanny X-Men #93: Cyclops battles Quicksilver, and Quicksilver himself remarks that only his speed saved him from being hit by Cyclops. This alone demonstrates an impressive combination of quick reflexes and incredible accuracy.



I dare you to tell me that Itachi is faster than Quicksilver.


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## Vicious (Aug 18, 2006)

well theirs always going underground making kage bunshins to attrack him im pretty sure cyclops wont know which 1 is real, i know cyclops blasts are very powerful but speed itachi>cyclops anyday,but we havent really seen itachi fight to his fullest so i dont know much about his abilities "Yet"......!!!


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## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2006)

Then we use what we do know. That's how vs. debates work.

And Cyclops without his visor will be firing off incredibly wide beam attacks covering his entire arc of vision.


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## Galt (Aug 18, 2006)

Yeah, considering the sheer brutal force of Cyclops' unsuppressed blasts, I don't think Itachi's going to be beating someone who is able to kill him simply by looking in his direction, bunshins or not.


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## Anemone (Aug 18, 2006)

Cyclops would win IMHO


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## Gunners (Aug 18, 2006)

> Itachi would have to look into his eyes, which would be impossible as doing so would get him vaporized.



Itachi has an Arsenal packed full of Jutsu, and a red hot flame, people assume that TS is his only ability.

Anyway i give this fight to Itachi, he has Jutsu and his basic level off moving insight reflexes is greater than Cyclops.


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## LayZ (Aug 18, 2006)

Man, Stevie Wonder would have a better chance against Itachi. Taking away Cyclops greatest strength and making him fight Itachi would just be wrong. I got an idea for your next thread, how about Ironman vs Magneto?


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## Endless Mike (Aug 18, 2006)

Hello?

Without his visor, Cyclops' blast will be massive, all Cyclops has to do is turn around toward Itachi.


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## Galt (Aug 18, 2006)

Stevie Wonder doesn't split mountains by looking at them.


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## Gunners (Aug 18, 2006)

> Hello?
> 
> Without his visor, Cyclops' blast will be massive, all Cyclops has to do is turn around toward Itachi.



Yeh exactly that, because Itachi will stand still and aim to stay in Cyclops view right. When people fight they actually move you know?


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## Vicious (Aug 18, 2006)

> Yeh exactly that, because Itachi will stand still and aim to stay in Cyclops view right. When people fight they actually move you know?


yep, exactly,  can cyclops see when hes fully tooken off his visors and aim at someone thats faster then him???


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## LayZ (Aug 18, 2006)

I was just saying that Cyclops would be somewhat handicaped without his visor. He couldn't be as accurate, so someone who doesn't have to rely on perfect vision would have a better chance.


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## Galt (Aug 18, 2006)

I'm pretty sure he can.  Cyclops never had real vision impairment other than the fact that he blasted to pieces anything he looked at without the visor or ruby quartz glasses.  Without the visor he can see perfectly fine, if I recall correctly.


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## Hiruma (Aug 18, 2006)

Cyclops sees perfectly fine even when he's blasting. 

Cyclops, if he really wants to, will just blast the whole place by turning around 360 degrees. Itachi dies. The End.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 18, 2006)

Cyclops without his visor. . . 

We're talking about massive range here. . . 

And anyone remember the blast he shot at Onslaught?


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## Nahrootoe (Aug 18, 2006)

Itachi doesn't have to make eye contact, he could use Amaterasu.

Still, Cyclops opens his eyes and does a little pirhouette.  Problem solved.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

_Still, Cyclops opens his eyes and does a little pirhouette. Problem solved._

I always had the thought that Cyclops should take dancing lessons.

Seriously, imagine the application.


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## Hiruma (Aug 19, 2006)

Getting killed by a guy who wears corny spandex, lame visors, and kills you while doing ballet is not amusing.


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## Endless Mike (Aug 19, 2006)

Better than getting killed by a guy who wears purple nail polish.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 19, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> Getting killed by a guy who wears corny spandex, lame visors, and kills you while doing ballet is not amusing.



But it'd be funny as hell.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

I'd pay to see that.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 19, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> Getting killed by a guy who wears corny spandex, lame visors, and kills you while doing ballet is not amusing.



And seeing his little brother pissed as hell cause you killed him first, while doing ballet


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

Who may follow the same fate also.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Aug 19, 2006)

*Cyclops FTW.

Does anyone know how fast his blasts are? *


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## ZergKage (Aug 19, 2006)

I'll actually go with Itachi


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## Coaxmetal (Aug 19, 2006)

I think Itachi's bag of Jutsu tricks, doton movement (underground), Kage/suiton Bushins for distractions, sharigan anticipating Cyclops movements, accurate kunai throughing, also genjutsu that don't rely on looking into his eyes, also his very good hand to hand combat skills which would cancel out any skill Cyclops has. 

I'm going with Itachi although it would be interesting.


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 19, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> w/o visor? Didn't he shoot blasts at Juggernaut powerful enough to level a small moon?


And according to "Civil War: X-Men" #2, Cyclops has _never_ used his full power.  So CIS aside, he could hit harder than that if he wanted to badly enough.

Also he can shoot rather wide-angled shots (see the image of Cyclops vs. the Sentinal in Astonishing X-men, 30-degree arclength?).  Going into the thread I thought Itachi's only chance would be to speedblitz Cyc before he could fire a targeted blast.

Without a visor he doesn't really need to target, just one wide-angled death beam that's super-fast and very manuverable.  If Itachi manages to survive the initial second, he'll never close in on Cyclops.


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## Havoc (Aug 19, 2006)

Impressive optic blast:


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

And combine that range with forces more powerful than the one that hit Onslaught. . . or the Juggernaut. . .


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## ZergKage (Aug 19, 2006)

Now erase the sentinal and replace it with more trees

Then, the next scene would be 2 hands raising from the dirt to grab scotts feet with explosive tags on them. GG


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## Hiruma (Aug 19, 2006)

Cyclop's taken more than two puny explosive tags. Itachi rises out and Cyclops looks down. Oops.


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## Gunners (Aug 19, 2006)

> Cyclop's taken more than two puny explosive tags. Itachi rises out and Cyclops looks down. Oops.



Wouldn't his strength and endurance be similar to a normal humans?


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## Captain Pimp (Aug 19, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> Cyclop's taken more than two puny explosive tags. Itachi rises out and Cyclops looks down. Oops.



haha..that's hilarious.

Yea, Cyclops can vaporize itachi without his visor so it's practically overkill.


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## Hiruma (Aug 19, 2006)

#
# Uncanny X-Men #175: When the X-Men are hypnotised into thinking Cyclops is the Dark Phoenix, they try to hunt him down. After defeating Colossus, Nightcrawler and Storm in quick succession, he flees to the Danger Room. Inside he creates a jungle environment in which to hide from his fellow X-Men. They attempt to hunt him down, but he outwits them, defeating Wolverine, Colossus, Storm and Rogue, all the while suffering from broken ribs.


Basically, I'd think that he has no healing factor or explicit invulnerability, just that he happens to be a little tough just like more comic/manga characters. And anyway, what did explosive tags do to Sakura? Cyclops can surely take that much.


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## CAIMERMAN03 (Aug 19, 2006)

I agree.  Cyclopes has tremendous power and Itachi's major technique requires staring someone in the eyes.   If Itachi had any hope of winning (the slightest glimmer of hope, mind you), he would have to be able to judge Cyclopse's chakra properly and use his speed (and against a wide range of an opponent's view is the most difficult thing to do).


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## Gunners (Aug 19, 2006)

> #
> # Uncanny X-Men #175: When the X-Men are hypnotised into thinking Cyclops is the Dark Phoenix, they try to hunt him down. After defeating Colossus, Nightcrawler and Storm in quick succession, he flees to the Danger Room. Inside he creates a jungle environment in which to hide from his fellow X-Men. They attempt to hunt him down, but he outwits them, defeating Wolverine, Colossus, Storm and Rogue, all the while suffering from broken ribs.



So, he had broken ribs and continued, a normal human is able to do that somewhat, if he gets hit by an exploding Kage bunshin he will die.



> Basically, I'd think that he has no healing factor or explicit invulnerability, just that he happens to be a little tough just like more comic/manga characters. And anyway, what did explosive tags do to Sakura? Cyclops can surely take that much.



No he can not, Naruto characters have an above human indurance level on a whole, Cyclops endurance is that off a tough human.


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## Hiruma (Aug 19, 2006)

I can't remember much of Cyclops feats in terms of endurance so I concede that point unless someone else can help. Nonetheless, if Itachi does do that, he's dead for sure anyway, since Cyclops WILL look down. So Cyclops ends up legless but the winner.

All of this is pointless anyway because Cyclops will kill  Itachi the moment the battle starts, since he apparently is fast enough with his blasts to give QUICKSILVER a run for his money.


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## The Wanderer (Aug 19, 2006)

From Wikipedia 

"Suffering a head injury in this unorthodox landing, Summers was left unable to consciously control his powers - his optic beams are now constantly "on," and will project indefinitely when his eyes are open. However, as Scott's psionic field is in tune with the energy of his beams, and as this field envelops his body, *he is immune to the harmful effects of his own powers*, causing the beams to dissipate harmlessly if they should come into contact with his body. Hence he is able to block the beams simply by closing his eyes, with even the thin material of his eyelids being able to block his beams"

There goes Itachi's last hope.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

In addition, Summers' are immune to one another -- Havok can't hurt Cyclops and vice-versa. Vulcan should theoretically apply, however he can manipulate Cyclops' optic blasts.


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## Galt (Aug 19, 2006)

Huh.  I was under the impression that only the Ultimate Marvel Summers family had the immunity to one another.  Well, you live and learn.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

Even the X-Men cartoon had it -- when X-Factor fought the X-Men.

If you want to look for the episode, it's the one where Iceman debuts.


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## buradorii (Aug 19, 2006)

dude cyclops is fuckin gay itachi would mess him up


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 19, 2006)

A bit bias on your part? Seeing how your user name includes Itachi's name.


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## Galt (Aug 19, 2006)

XxXitachiXxX said:
			
		

> dude cyclops is fuckin gay itachi would mess him up




Dude your post is so mature, thought out, and intellectually worded.  I am instantly taken aback to the days of William Shakespeare and Francis Bacon, and in no way do your words commit me to the belief that the world might be better off were your ancestors to have met Dr. Mengele while in queue in Poland.


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## syrup (Aug 20, 2006)

cyclops gets owned he is basically a normal human except for one attack...


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

A normal human except for one attack? He's a mutant.

And read up the posts here regarding his optic blasts.


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## Galt (Aug 20, 2006)

It's an attack that reduces mountains to rubble while being far from at full power.  It's also speculated that Cyclops' near superhuman abilities with regard to hitting his opponents with banked shots is a mutant sort of spacial awareness.  Normal human in physical strength and speed he may be, but when you add a dash of mountain-splitting to it and a pinch of unbelievable aim, things aren't as simple as you'd originally believe


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## Hiruma (Aug 20, 2006)

syrup said:
			
		

> cyclops gets owned he is basically a normal human except for one attack...



Except that his one attack punches holes through mountains.

Except that his reflexes and speed forced Quicksilver to use all his speed

Except that his one attack punched a hole in Onslaught's armor

Except that Quicksilver is about 10 times as fast as Itachi.

Except that his one attack has an incredibly wide arc and range.

Except that Dotons don't work due to the groudn being obliterated.

Except that MS is null and void.

Except that...I'll let the rest fill this in.


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## buradorii (Aug 20, 2006)

its w.e
fine heres an good explanation



itachi can use the sharingan to copy the blasts or see them coming
also if he used manuyagan shaningan or w.e it called
he would bring him into his mind and kill him so its an easy win


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## Hiruma (Aug 20, 2006)

XxXitachiXxX said:
			
		

> its w.e
> fine heres an good explanation
> 
> 
> ...



Fail. Optic Blasts cannot be copied since this is the equivalent of a Kekkai Genkai. MS doesn't work simply because he has look into his eyes. Looking into Cyclops' eyes = Dead.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

_itachi can use the sharingan to copy the blasts or see them coming_

Copying optic blasts?

Mutations aren't chakra based ninjutsus.

And optic blasts are energy. Sharingan's can foresee energy?

_also if he used manuyagan shaningan or w.e it called_

You realise how redundant this is?

You're going to use Tsukiyomi on Cyclops?!

Only chance he has is the Amaterasu.

_he would bring him into his mind and kill him so its an easy win_

Itachi would die looking into Cyclops' eyes.

Really, look at this logically, will you?


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## Coconut (Aug 20, 2006)

Cyclops couse close his eye and run around hopefully squishing something


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

I think i'm seeing a bias for comics against naruto characters....


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 20, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> I think i'm seeing a bias for comics against naruto characters....


How so? I don't really know anything about Itachi ecept the fact he has that genjustu that only works if he looks his foe in the eye and he has the sharingan.

 He can't look scott on the eyes, and scott eye-blasts are very powerful. 

I imagine Itachi being a mix of sasuke and Kakashi, and if I'm right, then the match is somewhat level. Not a slaughter


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

because people use the highest showings for comic characters while just treating naruto characters like scarecrows that will stand there and get mowed over


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## Gunners (Aug 20, 2006)

I think Cyclops would take this, that blast nuked out the mofo area, it was like Kyuubi cannon but continous, he takes this.

''You know, summers its times like these, i remember why you are in charge''.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

Though, Itachi would certainly have a problem with the range Scott's optic blasts entail.


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## Gunners (Aug 20, 2006)

> Though, Itachi would certainly have a problem with the range Scott's optic blasts entail.



Exactly, the blasts is on constantly, if he starts from behind he stands a chance, the moment scott turns to his direction he will die.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

Hence, why dancing skills could apply here.


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

Thats what trickery is about....a few clones here a few dotons(i think there called) there and its game over. But oh no, people dont want that....so they say scott opens the fight with!!!! A MOON SHATTERING BLAST OMG !11!1!!1 and itachi...a damn genius just stands there and says, "omg a comic character, i lose .


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## Havoc (Aug 20, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> because people use the highest showings for comic characters while just treating naruto characters like scarecrows that will stand there and get mowed over




It's easier to know more facts about a character who has been around for decades, as opposed to one whose been around for < 5.


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## Gunners (Aug 20, 2006)

> Thats what trickery is about....a few clones here a few dotons(i think there called) there and its game over. But oh no, people dont want that....so they say scott opens the fight with!!!! A MOON SHATTERING BLAST OMG !11!1!!1 and itachi...a damn genius just stands there and says, "omg a comic character, i lose .



Thought the sameway, just read a few pages back, his eye can rival or top Kyuubi cannon, but it is constant, Itachi just isn't dodging it.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 20, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> It's easier to know more facts about a character who has been around for decades, as opposed to one whose been around for < 5.



Yeah, I don't know a damn thing about Itachi.

 so I'm assuming he would fight like two people I saw fight already in naruto who are similar to him, Sasuke and Kakashi. 

But I don't know who would truly win though


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## Havoc (Aug 20, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Thats what trickery is about....a few clones here a few dotons(i think there called) there and its game over. But oh no, people dont want that....so they say scott opens the fight with!!!! A MOON SHATTERING BLAST OMG !11!1!!1 and itachi...a damn genius just stands there and says, "omg a comic character, i lose .




Cyclops could take out a clone with one look.  All he has to do is spin around.  I wonder if Scotts optic blast could block Itachi's ameratsu.(sp?)


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> It's easier to know more facts about a character who has been around for decades, as opposed to one whose been around for < 5.



This i can agree with, but you get what i'm sayin when i say that scott wont open with his best biggest attack when he doesnt even know what hes fighting. Even in the scans he tries a smaller attack till he gets backhanded


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

Amaterasu's is as hot as the sun, according to the Databook.

Both parties won't be standing ther -- Scott's not going to stay there and twil, nor is Itachi going to be a target.

However, Itachi will have to move a lot more in order to stay out of the range.

_This i can agree with, but you get what i'm sayin when i say that scott wont open with his best biggest attack when he doesnt even know what hes fighting_

Without his visor, there's very little that he can control in relation to his optic blasts.


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## Havoc (Aug 20, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> This i can agree with, but you get what i'm sayin when i say that scott wont open with his best biggest attack when he doesnt even know what hes fighting. Even in the scans he tries a smaller attack till he gets backhanded




That's when he has his visor, with them he can easily regulate the output, but in this fight he's w/o them.


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## Havoc (Aug 20, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Amaterasu's is as hot as the sun, according to the Databook.
> 
> Both parties won't be standing ther -- Scott's not going to stay there and twil, nor is Itachi going to be a target.
> 
> ...




His optic blast isn't heat though, it's a concussive blast.  So I'm thinking it might just push the flames away.


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## Gunners (Aug 20, 2006)

> This i can agree with, but you get what i'm sayin when i say that scott wont open with his best biggest attack when he doesnt even know what hes fighting. Even in the scans he tries a smaller attack till he gets backhanded



He would and Itachi would die, he couldn't help it as he doesn't have visors. Itachi would nto be able to move in time it has a huge range, his best bet would be a doton jutsu to go under the ground, and even so it is constand.


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

I heard from somewhere that hes always had control over the power his optic blast produce, but it was all in his head that he couldnt control it. I'll try and confirm that tonight.

A simple clone(that scott doesnt know about) while he goes doton would allow itachi to get close and end this. Hell he could make another clone to attack scott(with explosive tags((exploding clone))) in close while he gets further away


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## Havoc (Aug 20, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> I heard from somewhere that hes always had control over the power his optic blast produce, but it was all in his head that he couldnt control it. I'll try and confirm that tonight.



It's kinda like Iceman, where he isn't confident enough to use his true potential.  Anyway it doesn't matter because he has never shown control over his optic blast, so he wouldn't suddenly be able to do it in this fight.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 20, 2006)

_I heard from somewhere that hes always had control over the power his optic blast produce, but it was all in his head that he couldnt control it. I'll try and confirm that tonight._

As presented by Emma Frost, which Scott agreed with.

However, that's pretty recent. I think he's still in that dazed coma.


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## ZergKage (Aug 20, 2006)

He has control unless that scan you showed is a moon shattering blast


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## Geese (Aug 20, 2006)

Itachi has to activate the MS by closing his eyes.  Cyclops just looks at Itachi.  Marvel for yet another win.


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## humpa (Aug 21, 2006)

imho cyclops is one of the weakest characters in marvel universe.

he just sucks. optic blast yeah right, cyclops wont even be able to hit itachi.

cyclops is very weak against fast chars.

if wolverine can dodge those blasts, itachi can DEFINITELY dodge.


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## ZergKage (Aug 21, 2006)

Geese said:
			
		

> Itachi has to activate the MS by closing his eyes.  Cyclops just looks at Itachi.  Marvel for yet another win.



Why does itachi have to do the MS to win?


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## Darklyre (Aug 21, 2006)

Without his visor, Cyclops doesn't shoot optic blasts. He shoots NONSTOP DEATH RAYS. About the only break in between the concussive waves will be his blinks.

And if you don't think he has that wide a range of fire, try checking to see how far your peripheral vision goes. Mine is roughly 170 degrees. Assuming Cyclops is similar, he's just blasted everything in a half circle in front of him for a mile.


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## Coconut (Aug 21, 2006)

Oh we're talking about Cyclops for Marvel.. I thought it was the Cyclops with one eye..


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 21, 2006)

_imho cyclops is one of the weakest characters in marvel universe._

You've never seen then what his optic blasts can really do.

_he just sucks. optic blast yeah right, cyclops wont even be able to hit itachi._

Check the scan out from earlier.

_cyclops is very weak against fast chars._

Quicksilver, you mean?

_if wolverine can dodge those blasts, itachi can DEFINITELY dodge._

Read the thread, will you?


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## Captain Pimp (Aug 21, 2006)

humpa said:
			
		

> imho cyclops is one of the weakest characters in marvel universe.
> 
> he just sucks. optic blast yeah right, cyclops wont even be able to hit itachi.
> 
> ...



W/o Cyclops's visors, it's overkill for Itachi. Period.


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## im2neat (Aug 21, 2006)

all itachi got to do is move up close and stab him


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## im2neat (Aug 21, 2006)

all itachi got to do is move up close and stab him


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## Darklyre (Aug 21, 2006)

This battle really depends on one thing: Where does Itachi start the battle?

If he starts behind Cyclops, he has a chance of killing him, by speedblitzing him and stabbing him with a kunai or Amaterasu or something.

If he starts out in front of Cyclops, then as soon as the battle starts, he's pretty much dead. Unless you're Flash or someone who can move REALLY fast, you're not going to outrun a half-circle wide arc of pure concussive force, that moves at light speed.

If he tries a Doton jutsu, Cyclops looks down and blows him away, along with a big chunk of the ground.


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## Gunners (Aug 21, 2006)

^^^^ My thought of reasoning.


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## ZergKage (Aug 21, 2006)

Darklyre said:
			
		

> This battle really depends on one thing: Where does Itachi start the battle?
> 
> If he starts behind Cyclops, he has a chance of killing him, by speedblitzing him and stabbing him with a kunai or Amaterasu or something.
> 
> ...




First, starting behind someone in a vs thread is just silly unless stated.

2nd, Cyclops blast are not light speed, and will give itachi enough time to do doton+clones.

3rd, Even in the world of naruto people get caught off guard by doton so dont till me cyclops is just going to watch itachi go underground and just blast him.


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## Roy (Aug 21, 2006)

Cyclops wins this maybe with soem truoble but sooner or later Itachi's gonna get hit then die


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## Geese (Aug 21, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Why does itachi have to do the MS to win?




Because his bunshins, kunai and shuriken would be instantly vaporized by Cyclops doing a quarter turn and the finger genjutsu would just piss him off for a few minutes.  His only hope is Amaterasu.


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## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

Seriously, i can't believe you all are discussing this.

These two characters live in two completely different worlds

Cyclops lives in modern days where a few are gifted with super human powers

Itachi lives in a world where everone is trained to transform and make clones of themselves in school! 

Obviously Itachi would murder Cyclops.

I mean Konohamaru could kick his ass the way those kids are trained.

I mean right in the first episode of naruto, you see naruto jumpin from building to building, evading the chuunin. They were all over the place, moving so fast. AND IT WAS ALL JUST PLAY. In a real battle there are substatutions, etc. NOT TO MENTION Itachi is one of the strongest characters in Naruto series.


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## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

I also think its an easy win but you'd be suprise(as you can tell from this thread) that people down play itachi's speed and abilites....people still think if he cant do ms(which i think he still could), its an automatic loss.And if you side with itachi you'll get hit with all of cyclops top end feats while ignoring his lower end ones. Granted without a visor he can open up a wide beam and cover alot of ground, but itachi would be no slouch in the speed department and with clones+doton, it would be enough to beat cyclops.


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 23, 2006)

Like he can really move out of Cyclops' entire field of vision before he can turn his head.


----------



## Donkey Show (Aug 23, 2006)

Ok, lets start the battle like so, just so everyone has a baseline as to how it goes down...

Itachi and Scott are placed in a football field give or take 50 yards away.  Neither of them have any idea who each other are besides the fact that one person is leaving alive.  Both have their eyes closed and cannot start fighting until the countdown goes to zero, meaning no prep time, nothing.  Remember, Cykes doesn't have his glasses and Itachi has his hands to his sides.

3

2

1

0...

Both contestants open their eyes... what's left is half a football field annihilated in a split second with Cyclops still shooting off a massive deathray the likes of a 10x Kamehameha, but insanely wider.

You can close your eyes now Scott, you won.


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 23, 2006)

When Naruto characters can shoot moon-shattering blasts that move nearly as fast as Quicksilver, tell me.


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

AH, but your missing the fact that Itachi is highly trained, he doesnt need his eyes. Ninja are trained to listen better than anything, in fact as soon as you said 0 Itachi was already back to back with Scott smirking. Scott, surprised, spins around and opens his eyes for another blast...BAM there goes the rest of the field...alas, there stands Itachi, once again, back to back with Scott...smirking. Scott doesnt know what to do, suddenly he goes crazy and widens his eyes looking in all directions screaming at the top of his lungs...finally, he stops, puts on his visor, and opens his eyes...and there, glaring back are itachis mangekyou sharingon...


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 23, 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> AH, but your missing the fact that Itachi is highly trained, he doesnt need his eyes. Ninja are trained to listen better than anything, in fact as soon as you said 0 Itachi was already back to back with Scott smirking. Scott, surprised, spins around and opens his eyes for another blast...BAM there goes the rest of the field...alas, there stands Itachi, once again, back to back with Scott...smirking. Scott doesnt know what to do, suddenly he goes crazy and widens his eyes looking in all directions screaming at the top of his lungs...finally, he stops, puts on his visor, and opens his eyes...and there, glaring back are itachis mangekyou sharingon...



He can't put on his visor, it's gone, the OP took it away. Anyway, Cyclops can shoot to give Quicksilver a run for his money.

I DARE YOU TO TELL ME ITACHI IS FASTER THAN QUICKSILVER.


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

he doesnt need to be faster than quicksilver, speed plays its part, but your forgetting that Itachi can use substitution, along with a clones that can take the blast for him.


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 23, 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> he doesnt need to be faster than quicksilver, speed plays its part, but your forgetting that Itachi can use substitution, along with a clones that can take the blast for him.



You say he doesn't need speed, then says he does later? WTF? Clones do nothing since they die the instant they are made.


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

Yes, but they can take focus off the real Itachi. (Yes, i know Cyclops cant really "focus" on anything, but he will point it the direction he thinks)

And i said "he doesnt need to be faster than quicksilver" not that he doesnt need speed.


----------



## Donkey Show (Aug 23, 2006)

Cykes isn't an ordinary human and his reflexes push near superhuman.  He's not about to get blitzed by Itachi whow isn't nearly as fast as Quicksilver.  Clones, exploding tags, whatever.  Cykes has fought stronger enemies than the Itachi we currently know about and just because he's blasting death rays out of his eyes he's not going to just stand there.  Mind you there was no prep time in the scenario I played out.  The instant he starts forming those clones, he's enveloped by the optic death ray.  Anyway, which was is Itachi going to move to get to Scott?  Forward, in a diagonal direction to his side, the last time I checked, the last person who could span distances in an instant is Yondaime and its safe to say Itachi can't teleport.  With the amount of time he has to move his foot from the ground getting to the area where Scott is, he's toast.  Even if he tried to go underground, he'd be obliterated too, since the Optic death ray leveled that as well.


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

Itachi does unexplainable things, which was the point of my add on to your scene. He could be back to back with Scott before he even knows it. Im not saying its running speed, just saying he has his ways. Also, Itachi can use substitution without using hand signs. Thats a way he can pop up behind scott and put a kunai in his throat before scott even knows it.


----------



## The Wanderer (Aug 23, 2006)

> Itachi does unexplainable things


 You have to come up with something better than this. And please, refrain frm using "Because he's a ninja" post. Thank you very much in advance



> He could be back to back with Scott before he even knows it. Im not saying its running speed, just saying he has his ways.


 How ? Baseless speculation won't help you in the OB



> Also, Itachi can use substitution without using hand signs.


 Just because Kakashi said that Itachi's hand movements are too fast for his Sharingan to handle doesn't mean that he suddenly is too "elite" for hand seals. And before you write something, Sakura used hand seals for Kawarimi when she fought against the Sound Trio. 



> Thats a way he can pop up behind scott and put a kunai in his throat before scott even knows it.


 How ? If anything he'll be too busy trying to dodge Slim's optic blasts for a little while before dying. The area of effect of the beam , when unleashed, is HUGE, leaving Itachi without a chance to even move.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

Donkey Show said:
			
		

> Cykes isn't an ordinary human and his reflexes push near superhuman.  He's not about to get blitzed by Itachi whow isn't nearly as fast as Quicksilver.  Clones, exploding tags, whatever.  Cykes has fought stronger enemies than the Itachi we currently know about and just because he's blasting death rays out of his eyes he's not going to just stand there.  Mind you there was no prep time in the scenario I played out.  The instant he starts forming those clones, he's enveloped by the optic death ray.  Anyway, which was is Itachi going to move to get to Scott?  Forward, in a diagonal direction to his side, the last time I checked, the last person who could span distances in an instant is Yondaime and its safe to say Itachi can't teleport.  With the amount of time he has to move his foot from the ground getting to the area where Scott is, he's toast.  Even if he tried to go underground, he'd be obliterated too, since the Optic death ray leveled that as well.



Umm....just how fast do you think scotts optic blast are? And i'm talking about on the norm, not his best showing ever. Because he can barely keep up with wolverine on the norm.

And if itachi went to the ground how would scott know when nobody(iirc) in naruto knows when people do it.


----------



## The Wanderer (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> And if itachi went to the ground how would scott know when nobody(iirc) in naruto knows when people do it.


Sooner or later Itachi will have to attack. The moment he tries something Scott will look down (by reflex or something, your call), anhilating Itachi on the spot. And before you say "But he'll get hit by his own attack, so it's a draw". Cyke is ummune to his powers.

Please, don't forget that Cyclops isn't using his visor in this battle.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

The Wanderer said:
			
		

> Sooner or later Itachi will have to attack. The moment he tries something Scott will look down (by reflex or something, your call), anhilating Itachi on the spot. And before you say "But he'll get hit by his own attack, so it's a draw". Cyke is ummune to his powers.
> 
> Please, don't forget that Cyclops isn't using his visor in this battle.



Yep itachi would be betting on cyclops looking down. Exploding clone that puts explosive tags on scotts legs equals fights over


----------



## Havoc (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Umm....just how fast do you think scotts optic blast are? And i'm talking about on the norm, not his best showing ever. Because he can barely keep up with wolverine on the norm.
> 
> And if itachi went to the ground how would scott know when nobody(iirc) in naruto knows when people do it.




I'm sorry but could you tell me a time where Scott fought Logan w/o his visor, because I can't seem to remember one.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Umm....just how fast do you think scotts optic blast are? And i'm talking about on the norm, not his best showing ever. Because he can barely keep up with wolverine on the norm.
> 
> And if itachi went to the ground how would scott know when nobody(iirc) in naruto knows when people do it.



Wolverine most likely just dodges his line-of-sight. Cyclops doesn't actually need to notice Itachi going underground since after couple seconds of fighting it's like he is standing on a top of a mountain.


----------



## The Wanderer (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Yep itachi would be betting on cyclops looking down. Exploding clone that puts explosive tags on scotts legs equals fights over


Sakura was hit by one of those exploding tags and she didn't die. If someone like her managed to survive, why can't Cyclops do the same thing ?. And that is if they manage to get that close to him, something that is very hard, almost impossible for Kage Bunshins


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

All Cyclops got is one thing, Itachi is full of tricks, lol, if all else fails, he can just transform into Jean and Scott would be like...Oh my god...Jean, is it really you, and be all sissy about it. Meanwhile, while scott's on his knees crying, a shadow clones kunai is in his broken little heart. lol


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 23, 2006)

Lets look at ratios.

My top speed adrenaline-powerd lunge is probably 20 mph.  I have no problem whatsoever getting out of the way of a train going 60mph towards me assuming it's a reasonable distance away.

Quicksilver's speed (on average) tops out around the speed of sound (760mph).  Quicksilver has trouble dodging Cyclops' blasts (tight beam, much smaller than a train).

Simple ratios give us a bottom end speed of 2280mph for the beams.

Now if we look at Havoc's post (#37) we can see that his blasts sans-visor are at LEAST a 90-degree arc.  A little more math says that at 50' away Itachi has less than 0.015 seconds to either move 50' away (50'tan45deg) or perform a jutsu that would protect him (moving deep enough into the earth would work, sorta.  As would a replacement jutsu that teleports him sufficiently far away.  Both seem merely stalling tactics though).

Personally I don't think Itachi's that fast, at least not from what we've seen so far.


----------



## Leo (Aug 23, 2006)

So far being the key.
This guy took out an entire clan of people with the same ability as himself (not as powerful, but the same) just because some dude who can shoot a big beam at him comes along doesnt mean he cant stand his ground and win.


----------



## Havoc (Aug 23, 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> So far being the key.
> This guy took out an entire clan of people with the same ability as himself (not as powerful, but the same) just because some dude who can shoot a big beam at him comes along doesnt mean he cant stand his ground and win.




You don't even know the circumstances in which he killed them.  He wasn't an enemy so they probably weren't even expecting to have to defend themselves against him, and I think we've seen how big a difference there was between sharigan and mangekyou.  Cyclops w/o visors could level half of Konoha.


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 23, 2006)

Leo said:
			
		

> So far being the key.
> This guy took out an entire clan of people with the same ability as himself (not as powerful, but the same) just because some dude who can shoot a big beam at him comes along doesnt mean he cant stand his ground and win.


And when proof of this comes up, I'll gladly change my stance.  As it is he could have just as easily killed most of them while they were sleeping.

As of right now, all evidence shows Itachi getting trashed less than a second into this fight.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> I'm sorry but could you tell me a time where Scott fought Logan w/o his visor, because I can't seem to remember one.



Neither can i, but thats not the point. The point i'm making is if cyclops blast are dodgable by someone like wolverine then they' re not that fast. Grant what i'm talking about is with the visors, without visors doesnt mean there gonna be any faster and someone(whom i hold much faster than wolverine) should be able to do a number of things before the blast actually gets in his area. All it takes is a finger Genjutsu then doton or just doton and having clones attack from the ground.



			
				konflikti said:
			
		

> Wolverine most likely just dodges his line-of-sight. Cyclops doesn't actually need to notice Itachi going underground since after couple seconds of fighting it's like he is standing on a top of a mountain.



Curious then, how fast do you think cyclops blast are? 

Did you see havoc's scan on a pissed off cyclops blasting a sentinal? That really did nothing to the ground to make me believe that cyclops will be standing on a mountain.



			
				EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> Lets look at ratios.
> 
> My top speed adrenaline-powerd lunge is probably 20 mph. I have no problem whatsoever getting out of the way of a train going 60mph towards me assuming it's a reasonable distance away.
> 
> ...



Come on man, do you really expect people to buy that?


----------



## Havoc (Aug 23, 2006)

Cyclops is aiming at a 20 foot robot of course the damage to the ground wouldn't be that much because he is aiming up, but the damage to the ground would be a lot more when aiming at something around 5 feet tall.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Cyclops is aiming at a 20 foot robot of course the damage to the ground wouldn't be that much because he is aiming up, but the damage to the ground would be a lot more when aiming at something around 5 feet tall.


Scott was lying on the ground.....are you telling me the beam can only expand upwards? So the beams can only cover 90 degrees Horizontaly and not vertically?


----------



## Havoc (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Scott was lying on the ground.....are you telling me the beam can only expand upwards? So the beams can only cover 90 degrees Horizontaly and not vertically?



Look at something 5 feet tall, then look at something 20 ft.  Now imagine you had beams come out of your eyes, which position do you think would cause more damage to the ground?


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

Looks like the sentinal is on his knees and hands.


----------



## Havoc (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Looks like the sentinal is on his knees and hands.



Touche, lol                 .


----------



## EvilMoogle (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Curious then, how fast do you think cyclops blast are?
> 
> Come on man, do you really expect people to buy that?



You've asked this twice now, I gave you my calculations for an estimate.  You apparently don't like that, so I'll turn it around, how fast do you think Cyclops' blasts are?

Given the fact that Quicksilver has trouble dodging them (in tight-beam form) they have to travel a good deal quicker than Quicksilver does.  Quicksilver travels at roughly the speed of sound (slightly slower, actually but not much) as an average.

_Nothing_ has indicated to me that Itachi's anywhere close to the speed of sound, so I would assume at the very least he would have trouble dodging (without jutsu) a tight-beam attack from Cyc.

However, with the 90-degree-beam-of-death given by Cyc not having his visor (from the initial post), that takes normal dodging right out of the equation.  No one has even argued that Itachi would be able to take a blast to the chest and keep breathing, so endurance is out.  That leaves only the option of dodging the blast via a jutsu.

Again based on the estimate from Quicksilver's speed and at a range of 50' that gives him less than 0.015 seconds to react to the attack, formulate a jutsu plan to defend himself and execute the jutsu.

If you want to think he's that fast, go ahead, but nothing shown so far in the series has indicated this level of speed to me.


----------



## iaido (Aug 23, 2006)

gunners said:
			
		

> Yeh exactly that, because Itachi will stand still and aim to stay in Cyclops view right. When people fight they actually move you know?


You're just ignorant.  Stop posting.

Cyclops has battled opponents WAY faster than Itachi.  Ninjas in the Naruto world cannot even reach the speed of sound as Kishimoto has stated with his answer why guns are not in the Naruto verse - all the ninjas would be dead.

Cyclops without his visors would just have to make a 360 spin while moving his head up and down.  Cyclops is accurate but without his visor, accuracy isn't an issue as his FoV more than compensates.


----------



## iaido (Aug 23, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> I also think its an easy win but you'd be suprise(as you can tell from this thread) that people down play itachi's speed and abilites....people still think if he cant do ms(which i think he still could), its an automatic loss.And if you side with itachi you'll get hit with all of cyclops top end feats while ignoring his lower end ones. Granted without a visor he can open up a wide beam and cover alot of ground, but itachi would be no slouch in the speed department and with clones+doton, it would be enough to beat cyclops.


Downplay Itachi's speed?

A bullet > Itachi
Quicksilver >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullet > Itachi

And as for showing speed, anime has a different art style than Western comics.  Characters in anime "seem" to move faster when they really aren't.  Normal people in anime look fast.  Really, without objects to guage distance, you really can't tell the speed difference between Goku in the first volume of Dragonball and when he's SSJ3 in terms of art.

Doton isn't going to work because everything will be obliterated, including the ground.  When I stare straight ahead, I can still see the ground.  Now imagine Cyclops moving his neck down three inches.


----------



## Pimp of Pimps (Aug 23, 2006)

iaido said:
			
		

> A bullet > Itachi


*
No. Kishimoto said Naruto (the character) at the ime wasn't enough to handle a gun. He never said a thing about people like Itachi. 

Not that this changes the outcome. Cyclops >>>>> Itachi. Lets see Itachi dosge a death-ray that fast. *


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 23, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> You've asked this twice now, I gave you my calculations for an estimate.  You apparently don't like that, so I'll turn it around, how fast do you think Cyclops' blasts are?
> 
> Given the fact that Quicksilver has trouble dodging them (in tight-beam form) they have to travel a good deal quicker than Quicksilver does.  Quicksilver travels at roughly the speed of sound (slightly slower, actually but not much) as an average.
> 
> ...



Sorry its not that i dont like it, but its just wrong. Your not even factoring distance into your equation and the 2 senarios dont match up so you cant take a multipler from one and use it for the other.

First i want to say this before i post the scan. Just because quicksilver says his speed is the only thing that saved him from the optic blast doesnt mean it the optic blast is some super fast "death ray" that is as fast as quicksilver. I mean what else is quicksilver supposed to say, "Oh man, i dodged that on my good looks." or "I only dodged that because i've been lifting weights." 

But anyways heres the scan


As you can see quicksilver is dodging the blast nearly point blank. Now evilmoogle.....do you still think you could dodge a train going 60mph at point blank? Not to mention he was there to talk and wasnt expecting to get optic blasted.



			
				iaido said:
			
		

> Downplay Itachi's speed?
> 
> A bullet > Itachi
> Quicksilver >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Bullet > Itachi
> ...



Ah yes, the ultimate jobber in comics(besides maybe security systems) bullets. Majority of people in comics can dodge bullets so i dont know why your bringin this up. 

I dont understand what you mean when you say there are differences in western/eastern in showing speed. Are you saying you cant tell when someone is going faster than his enemy, i can.

And again a pissed off cyclop didnt do much to ground when he was going after the sentinal. Now if cyclops didnt know itachi was in the ground, you mean to tell me hes just gonna start shooting the ground for no reason? Or that scott actually fights turning in a circle while moving his head up and down?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 23, 2006)

> Neither can i, but thats not the point. The point i'm making is if cyclops blast are dodgable by someone like wolverine then they' re not that fast. Grant what i'm talking about is with the visors, without visors doesnt mean there gonna be any faster and someone(whom i hold much faster than wolverine) should be able to do a number of things before the blast actually gets in his area. All it takes is a finger Genjutsu then doton or just doton and having clones attack from the ground.




This argument is the most retarded thing ever.

Ok, lets say I throw a rock at Wolverine. He dodges. Now lets say I throw a mountain at Wolverine at the same speed I threw the rock. Can he dodge then? Is he fast enough to get out of the way of ALL that mountain?

WTF ZergKage?



> And again a pissed off cyclop didnt do much to ground when he was going after the sentinal. Now if cyclops didnt know itachi was in the ground, you mean to tell me hes just gonna start shooting the ground for no reason? Or that scott actually fights turning in a circle while moving his head up and down?



Well, Scott can see as normal as I can when his visor is off. If he notices Itachi is gone, he'll go "WTF?" and start looking around for him. What happens then?



			
				Leo said:
			
		

> So far being the key.
> This guy took out an entire clan of people with the same ability as himself (not as powerful, but the same) just because some dude who can shoot a big beam at him comes along doesnt mean he cant stand his ground and win.



Scott could kill them, quicker too.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> This argument is the most retarded thing ever.
> 
> Ok, lets say I throw a rock at Wolverine. He dodges. Now lets say I throw a mountain at Wolverine at the same speed I threw the rock. Can he dodge then? Is he fast enough to get out of the way of ALL that mountain?
> 
> WTF ZergKage?



Huh? I dunno if you understand what i'm saying(or maybe you do and think its retarded)

If you were to throw a rock at wolverine and he saw it and simply moved out of the way(which he has). Then you threw a mountain(same speed) at wolverine, no he wouldnt be able to dodge that. But like i said if you take someone who's faster than wolverine(we'll just throw out 3x) then the rock/mt will take a longer time getting to said person giving him(in this case itachi) enough time to do a replacement jutsu or doton or simply use a blocking technique(if he has one)

I wasnt arguing the dodgeable factor but the time the optic blast will take to get to itachi






			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Well, Scott can see as normal as I can when his visor is off. If he notices Itachi is gone, he'll go "WTF?" and start looking around for him. What happens then?



I'd imagine that like anyone he'd look around the area??? This is where the senario i usually go with an explosive clone poping up from the ground with explosive tags in his hands would be the end.






			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Scott could kill them, quicker too.



Sure i agree with that


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 24, 2006)

Could someone please either tell me what comic Cyclops did that to Quicksliver in so I can Dl it, or post the scans. I'm curious to see it.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

lol i just posted it a few post ago


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 24, 2006)

> Huh? I dunno if you understand what i'm saying(or maybe you do and think its retarded)



I get what you're saying, you're saying the beams move too slow to hit Itachi.

That's not true, you overrate Itachi's speed. Like, mucho.



> But like i said if you take someone who's faster than wolverine(we'll just throw out 3x) then the rock/mt will take a longer time getting to said person giving him(in this case itachi) enough time to do a replacement jutsu or doton or simply use a blocking technique(if he has one)



A replacement is just you putting something nearby where you are. All the things nearby would be blasted by the beams too.

Itachi couldn't get two handseals off before he gets obliterated. 

Most kawarmi jutsu aren't done instantley as reactions to attacks. They are done before hand. Its just moving away and throwing something in your place, and Scotts beam area is too big for him to get away with that.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 24, 2006)

Judging by the art and the costume, it's WAY back. I'd say X-Men #39, give or take a few issues (range of tens).

If I'm not mistaken, that's the 3rd costume that Cyclops wore.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I get what you're saying, you're saying the beams move too slow to hit Itachi.
> 
> That's not true, you overrate Itachi's speed. Like, mucho..



Thats fine, thats your opinion. I'd say your underrating itachi's speed since he was able to perform hand seals and trained ninja's couldnt even see that. Also he wasnt even going at full power as was stated by kakashi.





			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> A replacement is just you putting something nearby where you are. All the things nearby would be blasted by the beams too.
> 
> Itachi couldn't get two handseals off before he gets obliterated.
> 
> Most kawarmi jutsu aren't done instantley as reactions to attacks. They are done before hand. Its just moving away and throwing something in your place, and Scotts beam area is too big for him to get away with that.



So your telling me doing a replacement+doton combo wouldnt work?

The scan is of xmen #93


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 24, 2006)

> So your telling me doing a replacement+doton combo wouldnt work?



Actually, I don't remember Itachi doing a doton. Is that post skip?

And I don't think Itachi could pull off a replacement, or even if he could, he'd get blasted anyways.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Actually, I don't remember Itachi doing a doton. Is that post skip?
> 
> And I don't think Itachi could pull off a replacement, or even if he could, he'd get blasted anyways.



No, I havent seen itachi do a doton post or pre-skip, Doesnt mean he cant. I'd assume it's taught at the basic levels though

People in naruto pull replacements all the time and in the blink of an eye. Just ask Lee when he felt pain for a brief second against gaara.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 24, 2006)

> People in naruto pull replacements all the time and in the blink of an eye. Just ask Lee when he felt pain for a brief second against gaara.



Cyclops blast = literal blink of an eye

And no, the way you describe it, they do it as a reflex to attacks, like Gaara's sand wall. Thats not right. They prepare for it before, they know an attack is coming before hand, so they start the jutsu.

Like when Kakashi got attacked by the Demon Brothers. He did replacement because he saw it was an ambush. If he didn't, who knows?


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Cyclops blast = literal blink of an eye
> 
> And no, the way you describe it, they do it as a reflex to attacks, like Gaara's sand wall. Thats not right. They prepare for it before, they know an attack is coming before hand, so they start the jutsu.
> 
> Like when Kakashi got attacked by the Demon Brothers. He did replacement because he saw it was an ambush. If he didn't, who knows?



Huh even in the senario your talking about nobody even had the slighest idea he did the replacement, its that fast.

Gaara also did one while being attacked by lee whom had started opening gates and was so fast the sand defense couldnt keep up.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Judging by the art and the costume, it's WAY back. I'd say X-Men #39, give or take a few issues (range of tens).
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, that's the 3rd costume that Cyclops wore.



Okay, since you are probably one of the most knowledgeable on comics and because Quicksliver's speed has fluctuated like a rice cake in the ocean, I'll ask you: How fast was that Quicksliver? How fast was he shown to be in other comics around that time?

Seriously. I know his speed is all over the place. I'm not sure when this comics was but there is a comic around Quazar number 50 or 60 something where Makkurai is running in a race with the runner and the other fastest people on earth. The Quicksliver from there is stupendiously fast. Then again, another comic has quicksliver being pwned by wolverine... Sorry, but he earlier showing should make that impossible, regardless of how goldy Wolverines battle sense is "supposedly" at.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 24, 2006)

Well with his speed, couldn't Itachi not just get behind cyclops and impale him with a Kunai or something?

Not really sure how fast Cyclops is though, but I don't think he's faster than Narutoverse standards.

Not really sure though.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 24, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well with his speed, couldn't Itachi not just get behind cyclops and impale him with a Kunai or something?
> 
> Not really sure how fast Cyclops is though, but I don't think he's faster than Narutoverse standards.
> 
> Not really sure though.



He opens his eyes and pretty much everything he sees gets blasted.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo, to my knowledge quicksilver wasnt in that race.....hes nowhere near the speed of those guys

Suzumebachi, you realize saying what you just said would mean cyclop wouldnt miss anyone hes ever fought


----------



## Renegade (Aug 24, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> He opens his eyes and pretty much everything he sees gets blasted.


Uhh... not true. His eye beams don't include the area of his peripheral vision.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 24, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Proof          ?


Look at pictures of him shooting without his visor... It doesn't go absolutely everywhere he can see.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Here


*Spoiler*: __ 














So i guess cyclops can control his optic blast even without glasses


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 24, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Udesphikaiyo, to my knowledge quicksilver wasnt in that race.....hes nowhere near the speed of those guys
> 
> Suzumebachi, you realize saying what you just said would mean cyclop wouldnt miss anyone hes ever fought



Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember Quicksliver in there.

Anyway, I think Cyclops with his visor off wins when he opens his eyes, only if we assume Itachi doesn't get behind him first. It's somewhat of a situtional battle. The distant they begin fighting at is rather important. As is the fact of wherther or not cyclops begins with his visor on and needs to take it off or not. That being said, if cyclops keeps his visor on the whole time, the showings of him I've seen haven't been very impressive. He'd lose realtively easily. Itachi would need only dodge one blast and by then he would have done a seal... exploding kage bunshin...


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> Are you sure about that? I distinctly remember Quicksliver in there.



You're 100% right he was there, my mistake



Black Racer, Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau), Makkari, Quicksilver, Speed Demon, Super Sabre and the Whizzer


----------



## Renegade (Aug 24, 2006)

An accurate, mathematical, and scientific depiction of how the fight will go down.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 24, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> .kkrieger


I'm not de-evolving (is that a word?) into anything. I just really don't think Cyclops can keep up with Itachi's agility and skill, not to mention his jutsu's. And you gotta admit, it's a pretty funny gif.

Btw, didn't I tell you to stop using that Objection! shit? You're gonna kill it, and ruin it for everyone.


----------



## syrup (Aug 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> A normal human except for one attack? He's a mutant.
> 
> And read up the posts here regarding his optic blasts.



what amazing mutant powers does he have other then his eyes? every x-men thing i have seen he is just a human with eye beams...and whenever he takes his goggles or w.e off he can't see and is in pain...except that one where he went like super style with his brother or w.o that dude is that shoots beams from his hands...


----------



## SoulTaker (Aug 24, 2006)

Quicksilver top speed is 180 MPH,but when he had Isotope E his speed went up to Mach 1.Now if 180 MPH isn't enough for you,keep in mind that Quicksilver reacts 150 times faster than a normal human.


----------



## Galt (Aug 24, 2006)

He's not in pain when he takes his goggles off, nor is he blind.  He just can't see because he's got his eyes closed to avoid leveling the city.


----------



## Darklyre (Aug 24, 2006)

Whereas normal humans can focus their eyes on distant objects, Cyclops can use that to focus his optic blasts.


----------



## Rice Ball (Aug 24, 2006)

Itachi wins because hes a Ninja.

And we all know Ninjas = Pirates > Cyclops unless hes banging Emma Frost.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 24, 2006)

There's also the time where he blasted Onslaught, and punched a hole through his armor. Not to mention that Cyclops was thrown back quite a few feet.

And please. Cyclops is a pimp. He can bang a lot of women -- they literally threw themselves down at his feet.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 24, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I'm not de-evolving (is that a word?) into anything. I just really don't think Cyclops can keep up with Itachi's agility and skill, not to mention his jutsu's. And you gotta admit, it's a pretty funny gif.
> 
> Btw, didn't I tell you to stop using that Objection! shit? You're gonna kill it, and ruin it for everyone.



Yes it is a word, and Objection called to me that time. I'm gonna stop using it.


----------



## Havoc (Aug 24, 2006)

syrup said:
			
		

> what amazing mutant powers does he have other then his eyes? every x-men thing i have seen he is just a human with eye beams...and *whenever he takes his goggles or w.e off he can't see and is in pain*...except that one where he went like super style with his brother or w.o that dude is that shoots beams from his hands...




That never happens.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> There's also the time where he blasted Onslaught, and punched a hole through his armor. Not to mention that Cyclops was thrown back quite a few feet.



Was that before or after Joseph(amped by cable) put a crack in the armor? I think it was after....


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 24, 2006)

_Was that before or after Joseph(amped by cable) put a crack in the armor? I think it was after...._

It's been awhile since I read the Onslaught arc. I'll have to dig through the issues. . . although, having an issue number would speed up the process.


----------



## The Nameless Pharaoh (Aug 24, 2006)

Cyclops wins.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 24, 2006)

Ah, yes. Uncanny X-Men #336.

You're right -- Cable tweaked Joseph's powers for a magnetic flare. Then Cyclops saw the crack in the armor, let loose an optic blast, and Sue widened the hole big enough for Thor to punch through with Xavier.


----------



## syrup (Aug 24, 2006)

Rice Ball said:
			
		

> Itachi wins because hes a Ninja.
> 
> And we all know Ninjas = Pirates > Cyclops unless hes banging Emma Frost.



quoted because it is the truth


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 24, 2006)

The Nameless Pharaoh said:
			
		

> Cyclops wins.



May i ask why?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 24, 2006)

People overrate Itachi and Naruto guys speed.

Yeah, they are depicted as blurs sometimes. OMG FAST.

But 90% of people would say that Itachi is faster than Wolverine, even though he's been depicted as blur before.


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 24, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> And please. Cyclops is a pimp. He can bang a lot of women -- they literally threw themselves down at his feet.



Weren't half of them clones of the same person?


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 24, 2006)

Doesn't matter imo.


----------



## EonNinja (Aug 25, 2006)

Itachi, with his jutsus and lots of other stuff that he has, cyclops just has that eye shooting thing XD


----------



## Shiron (Aug 25, 2006)

EonNinja said:
			
		

> Itachi, with his jutsus and lots of other stuff that he has, cyclops just has that eye shooting thing XD


So? Just because you have more abilites, doesn't mean that you would win a fight.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 25, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> So? Just because you have more abilites, doesn't mean that you would win a fight.



While that might be true, genjutsu/speed/doton/clones would be enough to beat cyclops.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 25, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> While that might be true, genjutsu/speed/doton/clones would be enough to beat cyclops.



If he knew exactly what to do and who he was against. The suprise factor is definately on Cyclops' side.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 25, 2006)

huh? how is the suprise factor on the side of cyclops


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

Damn, I was really hoping this would have settled it.



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> An accurate, mathematical, and scientific depiction of how the fight will go down.


Guess not, lol.


----------



## The Transporter (Aug 25, 2006)

Umm...

You guy's understand this was supposed to be a joke fight right? You know, "guy who has to look into your eye's to kill you Vs. Man who shoot's lazer beams out of eyes, lol".

I'm actually suprised some of you are taking this fight seriously. Honestly, the only way Itachi wins is if he is out of sight, underground, or starts out behind his back. Which, in that case, I could beat fucking Cyclops. 

So, it's okay guys, this was supposed to be a joke, Cyclops wins, lol. Does it mean that he can beat everyone in Konoha, no. Does it mean that comics are infinetly superior to Manga? No. So please, lighten up guys!

-Simon


----------



## Renegade (Aug 25, 2006)

The Transporter said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> You guy's understand this was supposed to be a joke fight right? You know, "guy who has to look into your eye's to kill you Vs. Man who shoot's lazer beams out of eyes, lol".



Except Itachi doesn't have to look into someone's eyes to kill them...

You're basing that on only one of his strongest attacks... Tsukiyomi isn't all he has.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 25, 2006)

The Transporter said:
			
		

> Umm...
> 
> You guy's understand this was supposed to be a joke fight right? You know, "guy who has to look into your eye's to kill you Vs. Man who shoot's lazer beams out of eyes, lol".
> 
> ...



Wow, just wow. I sometimes wonder if people think itachi was a pathetic ninja who used to get beat up by everyone before he got MS

Oh but thanks for coming in and saying this is a joke thread....i still say people say cyclops wins just because hes a comic character. And when that doesnt work they bust out the highest of high in feats like its the norm. I'm more against that than this matchup


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 25, 2006)

This was a joke thread?


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 25, 2006)

Itachi can't kill Cyclops since he dies the instant the battle starts.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 25, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> huh? how is the suprise factor on the side of cyclops



Umm, he shoots fucking gigantic blasts from his eyes. WTF is wrong with you?

Sharingan can't predict that.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> *Spoiler*: __



You call this gigantic? Cyclops rarely does a blast that big and that was a pissed off, you almost killed children cyclops. The norm is what i'm showing you, which he wont do till he knows he has no other options. Period. Unless you and your infinite wisdom can provide some scans of cyclops immediately starting off with a blast like that i suggest you actually read more xmen instead of looking at one picture and basing your answer on that picture.

Oh, and does wolverine need sharingan to dodge blast from cyclops? Didnt think so.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_Cyclops rarely does a blast that big and that was a pissed off, you almost killed children cyclops._

Understandable. However, it was recently revealed that Cyclops had never used his optic blasts at full power, in the Civil War X-Men issues I believe.

_The norm is what i'm showing you, which he wont do till he knows he has no other options. Period. Unless you and your infinite wisdom can provide some scans of cyclops immediately starting off with a blast like that i suggest you actually read more xmen instead of looking at one picture and basing your answer on that picture._

Understandable. However, the wide-arc blast scan shown earlier is more recent. Though, I don't know whether it's the norm.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Sharingan can't predict that.


And how would you know?


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy. said:
			
		

> Understandable. However, it was recently revealed that Cyclops had never used his optic blasts at full power, in the Civil War X-Men issues I believe.



This is true, but i still feel he wont just start off with a full force blast.




			
				Comic Book Guy. said:
			
		

> Understandable. However, the wide-arc blast scan shown earlier is more recent. Though, I don't know whether it's the norm.



Sure its more recent but even in those scans he doesnt start off doing the wide beam blast. Not till he gets backhanded and children are threaten. 

Now in my opinion hes not going to start a fight wide blasting, dancing, and moving his head up and down with the force to destory the moon. But if thats how you truely feel then ok, i'll just have to respect that as your opinion, no harm no foul.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> And how would you know?



It can predict his body movement up to the Ocular Blast. 

But the Ocular Blast itself, It doesn't seem likely


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

Optic blasts aren't body movements.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> It can predict his body movement up to the Ocular Blast.
> 
> But the Ocular Blast itself, It doesn't seem likely


Saying "it doesn't seem likely he can" is a lot different than saying "he can't".


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Optic blasts aren't body movements.



It's energy, so Sharingan wouln't be able to follow it or predict it. That's my reasoning on it


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_This is true, but i still feel he wont just start off with a full force blast._

Understandable. However, it seems he can manipulate the range of his blasts, depending on the situation he's in.

_Sure its more recent but even in those scans he doesnt start off doing the wide beam blast. Not till he gets backhanded and children are threaten. 

Now in my opinion hes not going to start a fight wide blasting, dancing, and moving his head up and down with the force to destory the moon. But if thats how you truely feel then ok, i'll just have to respect that as your opinion, no harm no foul._

Understandable. This does stay true to his character, to my knowledge.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Saying "it doesn't seem likely he can" is a lot different than saying "he can't".



I know very little about Cyclops.

 And I know that Sharingan can't follow non-physical targets.

 And it's safe to assume that the Optic Blast isn't a physical object


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Optic blasts aren't body movements.


I always figured the Sharingan worked by making the user see things in slow motion, countering the attack accordingly. If that's how the Sharingan works, dodging a beam should be no different than dodging a kunai.

If that's not how it works, can someone explain and provide proof of how it does?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

The Sharingan (写輪眼, literally "Copy Wheel Eye", English manga "Mirror Wheel Eye") is a special type of pupil condition that naturally occurs in all members of the Uchiha clan, though not all of them gain the ability to use it. Itachi hints at some dark ultimate purpose behind the Sharingan, which both he and Sasuke apparently know, but the series has yet to reveal exactly what that purpose is. The Sharingan is thought to be descended from the Byakugan, but grants the user different abilities and a different insight; which includes the ability to observe the movement and flow of chakra (although not to the same extent and clarity as the Byakugan).

The Sharingan's first and most well known ability is to memorize any technique that it witnesses. It can memorize ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu with perfect accuracy, allowing the user to use the techniques as his own. In order to reproduce copied jutsu, however, one must have the necessary skill or ability to perform them. A prime example is Rock Lee's brand of taijutsu. While Sasuke was able to copy some of Lee's moves, they put a much more significant strain on him since he hasn't trained nearly as hard as Lee has. In addition to physical skill, the Sharingan cannot allow the user to reproduce any other bloodline abilities or summon a creature the user has not made a contract with, because the user of the Sharingan has to have the same blood as the one they are copying.

The Sharingan also grants the user incredible clarity of perception, allowing them to track fast moving objects with great clarity and predict their opponent's action. This perception is so great that it can even see through genjutsu and reverse it, depending upon the skill of the user.

Finally, the Sharingan is capable of a unique brand of hypnosis that involves suggesting actions and thoughts to the opponent. When used in conjunction with the other aspects of the Sharingan, this allows the user to copy and use an opponent's technique before they can actually execute it.
Sasuke's evolving Sharingan.
Enlarge
Sasuke's evolving Sharingan.

The Sharingan does not automatically appear from birth in a user; instead, it will usually appear when the user is in a life-threatening situation, where the power of the Sharingan could save the user. After this first appearance, the user can then call up the Sharingan any time he or she pleases. (Due to its unique nature, Kakashi's Sharingan is "permanently on", and thus he usually covers it to conserve chakra.) The power of the Sharingan is judged through the number of tomoe in the eye, known as the "tomoe seal". It is not unheard of for a Sharingan user to have different amounts of tomoe in each eye. For example, Sasuke's Sharingan initially had two tomoe in one eye and one in the other. Upon his first regular activation of it, it had evolved to two tomoe in each eye, then three during his battle with Naruto at the Valley of the End. A fully-matured Sharingan has three tomoe in each eye.

It is possible to transplant Sharingan eyes from one person to another, as occurred with Kakashi and his deceased comrade Obito. However, transplanted eyes do not work as well in a non-Uchiha body, causing more strain on the user, as is the case with Kakashi - extended use of his Sharingan will cause him to collapse. Uchiha clan members are not burdened with this weakness; while activation of the Sharingan does consume chakra, the drain is so small as to be almost insignificant. Itachi in particular seems to have no trouble keeping his Sharingan activated near-constantly.

Characters who currently possess the Sharingan include Sasuke Uchiha, Itachi Uchiha, and Kakashi Hatake. Kakashi's eye was given to him by Obito Uchiha, one of his teammates in his original three-man ninja team. Obito developed it in battle against rival Rock shinobi and during this battle Kakashi lost his left eye when he was attacked, hence his scar. Near the end of the battle Obito's right side is crushed under a giant rock, and as his last act Obito had Rin, a medical ninja, remove his left eye and implant it in Kakashi's left eye, thus allowing Kakashi to use the Sharingan even though he does not have Uchiha blood. This is also why only his left eye is a Sharingan eye.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I always figured the Sharingan worked by making the user see things in slow motion, countering the attack accordingly. If that's how the Sharingan works, dodging a beam should be no different than dodging a kunai.
> 
> If that's not how it works, can someone explain and provide proof of how it does?



Sharingan sees every detail of movement the muscles make, and uses it to predict where the body will move next. Zabuza says this in the bridge fight.

Dodging the kunai is not Sharingan.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

I don't know whether the Sharingan's perception would extend outside of body movement.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Byakugan would be able to detect the Optic Blast


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 26, 2006)

Ah, ZergKage, I see where we differ in opinion. I always assume in the OB that the guy is bloodlusted, but you don't. So it comes to down to a matter of opinion.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> Ah, ZergKage, I see where we differ in opinion. I always assume in the OB that the guy is bloodlusted, but you don't. So it comes to down to a matter of opinion.



I also don't think that personality comes into play here unless the original poster says so.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_Byakugan would be able to detect the Optic Blast_

Though, would it be able to predict it's trajectory?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Byakugan would be able to detect the Optic Blast_
> 
> Though, would it be able to predict it's trajectory?



It should. judging from the fights Neji was in. 

But what if Cyclops did one of his trick shots?

 Sorry for getting too off-topic


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> The Sharingan also grants the user incredible clarity of perception, allowing them to track fast moving objects with great clarity and predict their opponent's action. This perception is so great that it can even see through genjutsu and reverse it, depending upon the skill of the user.


Doesn't say anything about it being limited to only body movements. It just says it grants better perception of general movement, whether it be humans, or objects in general.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Sharingan sees every detail of movement the muscles make, and uses it to predict where the body will move next. Zabuza says this in the bridge fight.


Oh, did he? Got a manga scan of it?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Doesn't say anything about it being limited to only body movements. It just says it grants better perception of general movement, whether it be humans, or objects in general.



But thats from wikipidiea or something. Its stated in the anime and manga that it predicts muscle movements by seeing every detail.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Doesn't say anything about it being limited to only body movements. It just says it grants better perception of general movement, whether it be humans, or objects in general.



Ok. Got me on a technicality.

 But it dosen't say anything about tracking non-physical objects


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> But thats from wikipidiea or something. Its stated in the anime and manga that it predicts muscle movements by seeing every detail.


Scan, scan, scan, scan, scan, scan.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> But thats from wikipidiea or something. Its stated in the anime and manga that it predicts muscle movements by seeing every detail.



Wiki is that damn unreliable?

 I need another source until I can get my hands on the manga. 

I can't keep bringing supersoakers to a gunfight


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_ It just says it grants better perception of general movement, whether it be humans, or objects in general._

If so, there's no mention of the non-physical, such as energy.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Oh, did he? Got a manga scan of it?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _ It just says it grants better perception of general movement, whether it be humans, or objects in general._
> 
> If so, there's no mention of the non-physical, such as energy.


Doesn't matter if it's physical or non-physical, if it emits light, it can be seen by the human eye, including the sharingan.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

That manga scan comes nowhere close to proving the sharingan is *limited* to body movements only.

What happened to the statement you were talking about made by Zabuza?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> That manga scan comes nowhere close to proving the sharingan is *limited* to body movements only.
> 
> What happened to the statement you were talking about made by Zabuza?





Its vague, which is why I mention the anime too. The anime line is:

"That piercing eye, which sees every detail." "You use that piercing eye to predict my movements"

I don't see how you can notice details on light and energy. Not much to see.


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Understandable. However, it seems he can manipulate the range of his blasts, depending on the situation he's in.



I agree with that.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Doesn't matter if it's physical or non-physical, if it emits light, it can be seen by the human eye, including the sharingan.



Wrong. The human eye can see the Optic Blast, but the Sharingan wouldn't detect it. 

The Sharingan and the human eye are not one in the same


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

He says nothing about the sharingan being limited to body movements *only*. He says it's a technique evolving an attention to detail. That doesn't mean he can *only* percieve body movements with it.



			
				suzumabachi said:
			
		

> Its vague, which is why I mention the anime too. The anime line is:
> 
> "That piercing eye, which sees every detail." "You use that piercing eye to predict my movements"
> 
> I don't see how you can notice details on light and energy. Not much to see.


... Whether it be a beam of energy, or a body movement, the point is it emits light, making it visible to the human eye. Doesn't matter whether it's energy or an object. 

Take fire for instance; just because it's not a solid object, doesn't mean you can't see it.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Wrong. The human eye can see the Optic Blast, but the Sharingan wouldn't detect it.
> 
> The Sharingan and the human eye are not one in the same


LOL! What proof do you even have of that?! Where has it ever been stated that the Sharingan cannot see things the normal eye can see?


The Sharingan is an evolvement to the normal eye. How much sense would it make for it to not be able to see shit the normal eye can? That statement is completely assinine.

You can't just make up false facts like that.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> He says nothing about the sharingan being limited to body movements *only*. He says it's a technique evolving an attention to detail. That doesn't mean he can *only* percieve body movements with it.
> 
> 
> ... Whether it be a beam of energy, or a body movement, the point is it emits light, making it visible to the human eye. Doesn't matter whether it's energy or an object.
> ...



Sure, the Sharingan can see lightl. So? It can't predict it like it does with body movements. It sees it as a normal eye would. 

What were you trying to prove with this? That Itachi sees the beam coming because of Sharingan? Because there are plenty of people as fast as Itachi who can see the beam and still get hit by it.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Sure, the Sharingan can see lightl. So? It can't predict it like it does with body movements. It sees it as a normal eye would.
> 
> What were you trying to prove with this? That Itachi sees the beam coming because of Sharingan? Because there are plenty of people as fast as Itachi who can see the beam and still get hit by it.


I'm saying that he could see it coming towards him in slow motion (if that is how the Sharingan works), giving him better reflex to dodge it...


----------



## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

SpoonyBard said:
			
		

> Ah, ZergKage, I see where we differ in opinion. I always assume in the OB that the guy is bloodlusted, but you don't. So it comes to down to a matter of opinion.



Well i'm not sure how things are supposed to be argued, but i always assumed that unless stated as a "bloodlusted" matchup you have to keep it semi-related to how they fight in a comic/manga.

For instance in a thor vs silver surfer fight i'd more than likely choose thor(as thats how i've seen the fights in comics. But if its a bloodlusted fight and you throw comics out the window and go based purely on feats. Silver Surfer wins based on the feats of speed and transmugation, time manipulation etc etc...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_I'm saying that he could see it coming towards him in slow motion (if that is how the Sharingan works), giving him better reflex to dodge it..._

For the physical. However, with regards to the non-physical, would the Sharingan predict how energy moves?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I'm saying that he could see it coming towards him in slow motion (if that is how the Sharingan works), giving him better reflex to dodge it...



No, he'd see it for what it is. A beam. He can dodge physical attacks better because he sees every detail of the muscles and can predict where its going to move next. It doesn't see the future, as Zabuza stated. Its different from seeing beams. There really isn't any detail to see.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

cbg said:
			
		

> For the physical. However, with regards to the non-physical, would the Sharingan predict how energy moves?





			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No, he'd see it for what it is. A beam. He can dodge physical attacks better because he sees every detail of the muscles and can predict where its going to move next. It doesn't see the future, as Zabuza stated. Its different from seeing beams. There really isn't any detail to see.


He could see it coming closer and closer to him in slow motion... How much more detail does he need to see?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> He could see it coming closer and closer to him in slow motion... How much more detail does he need to see?



You were saying that he'd see it in slow motion.

I'm saying thats not true.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You were saying that he'd see it in slow motion.
> 
> I'm saying thats not true.


Then how would the Sharingan give better reflexes? Seeing more *clearly* isn't going to help you dodge or counter an attack. That's like giving someone glasses, and expecting them to have better reflexes.

Seeing it in slow motion is the only thing that would make sense.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_He could see it coming closer and closer to him in slow motion... How much more detail does he need to see?_

Confirmation or a clear example of a Sharingan predicting the movement of something non-physical such as energy.

Going by memory, everything predicted was of a physical body.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _He could see it coming closer and closer to him in slow motion... How much more detail does he need to see?_
> 
> Confirmation or a clear example of a Sharingan predicting the movement of something non-physical such as energy.
> 
> Going by memory, everything predicted was of a physical body.


Well if the mechanics behind the Sharingan is seeing shit in slow motion, it wouldn't really matter whether the attack was physical or non-physical. As long as it's visible by the human eye.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Then how would the Sharingan give better reflexes? Seeing more *clearly* isn't going to help you dodge or counter an attack. That's like giving someone glasses, and expecting them to have better reflexes from attacks.
> 
> Seeing it in slow motion is the only thing that would make sense.



Reference Rock Lee vs Sasuke. Sasuke could see the movements but couldn't react to it. Exactly. 

Seeing things in slow motion doesn't make sense. No sharingan user has ever seeing things in "slow motion".


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well if the mechanics behind the Sharingan is seeing shit in slow motion, it wouldn't really matter whether the attack was physical or non-physical. As long as it's visible by the human eye.



Its NOT slow motion.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Reference Rock Lee vs Sasuke. Sasuke could see the movements but couldn't react to it. Exactly.


Well that's a whole new argument. Now you're talking about whether Itachi has the physical speed to dodge the beam, which I feel he does. 



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Seeing things in slow motion doesn't make sense. No sharingan user has ever seeing things in "slow motion".


How else would you explain the better reflexes?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Well that's a whole new argument. Now you're talking about whether Itachi has the physical speed to dodge the beam, which I feel he does.
> 
> 
> How else would you explain the better reflexes?



No one gained better reflexes from Sharingan. Sasuke was able to take Naruto because he was already faster than him without Sharingan. Again, see Lee vs Sasuke. Sasuke didn't gain better reflexes despite he could predict Lee's movemnts.

And what you were talking about was Itachi being able to predict the movements of a beam, which is crazy. I don't feel that Itachi can dodge the beam, but the line of fire. If its not a super big blast or if he has his visor on.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> LOL! What proof do you even have of that?! Where has it ever been stated that the Sharingan cannot see things the normal eye can see?
> 
> 
> The Sharingan is an evolvement to the normal eye. How much sense would it make for it to not be able to see shit the normal eye can? That statement is completely assinine.
> ...



It's a ocular Kekkei genkai. I didn't say that.

 I'm saying that the Sharingan isn't the one in the same with the human eye. 

And just because the user of the Sharingan can see the Optic Blast, dosen't mean that Sharingan's effect will activate


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No one gained better reflexes from Sharingan. Sasuke was able to take Naruto because he was already faster than him without Sharingan. Again, see Lee vs Sasuke. Sasuke didn't gain better reflexes despite he could predict Lee's movemnts.


At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better *reflexes*.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> And what you were talking about was Itachi being able to predict the movements of a beam, which is crazy.


Seeing it moving closer and closer is all you need to predict the movement... 

If you don't move, you're gonna get hit...



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I don't feel that Itachi can dodge the beam, but the line of fire. If its not a super big blast or if he has his visor on.


 I honestly can't even understand what you mean by that statement...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better reflexes._

Are you implying that the Sharingan also includes a physical enhancement?

_Seeing it moving closer and closer is all you need to predict the movement... 

If you don't move, you're gonna get hit..._

I don't remember anywhere in the manga where the Sharingan allows the user to view the world in slow motion, nor do I remember any reference made.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> It's a ocular Kekkei genkai. I didn't say that.


Your exact words:


			
				rild said:
			
		

> The human eye can see the Optic Blast, but the Sharingan wouldn't detect it.







			
				rild said:
			
		

> And just because the user of the Sharingan can see the Optic Blast, dosen't mean that Sharingan's effect will activate


If the Sharingan works by seeing things in slow motion, there should be no reason for it not to be able to detect a beam. A beam emits light just like a human body does. Both are visible to the eye.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better reflexes.



Possible. But three tomes could also mean the he sees the details even better and see the next movement faster than he would with two tome.



> Seeing it moving closer and closer is all you need to predict the movement...
> 
> If you don't move, you're gonna get hit...



But its not in slow motion like you insist. -_-

I notice you only like to see things in a way that helps your argument, even though the way you see it is quite incorrect.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_If the Sharingan works by seeing things in slow motion, there should be no reason for it not to be able to detect a beam. A beam emits light just like a human body does. Both are visible to the eye._

Understandable. That is, if the Sharingan allows the user to view the world in slow motion.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better reflexes._
> 
> Are you implying that the Sharingan also includes a physical enhancement?


No, i'm implying that the third tomo helped Sasuke to better predict Naruto's movements.



			
				Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _Seeing it moving closer and closer is all you need to predict the movement...
> 
> If you don't move, you're gonna get hit..._
> 
> I don't remember anywhere in the manga where the Sharingan allows the user to view the world in slow motion, nor do I remember any reference made.


I understand it's never been stated like that, but it would be the only way for the user to better percieve movement. Nothing else would make sense.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Your exact words:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I said the Sharingan is separate from the eye. And the ability of Sharingan isn't  sight, It's detection. Byakugan is a sight based Kekkei genkai


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Possible. But three tomes could also mean the he sees the details even better and see the next movement faster than he would with two tome.


But seeing *details* better isn't going to help your reflexes to attacks. Like I said before; that's like giving someone eye glasses to enhance their vision, and expecting them to acquire better reflexes.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> But its not in slow motion like you insist. -_-


Then what is it?



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I notice you only like to see things in a way that helps your argument, even though the way you see it is quite incorrect.


... You haven't provided any arguments that explain how the Sharingan works, all you've done is bat down my theory with no theory of your own. 

You say the way I see it is incorrect, but you provide nothing to support the contrary.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> No, implying that the third tomo helped Sasuke to better predict Naruto's movements.



No you weren't.





> At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better reflexes.





> I understand it's never been stated like that, but it would be the only way for the user to better percieve movement. Nothing else would make sense.



How about FUCKING PREDICTING MOVEMENTS BASED ON THE BODY. That makes alot more sense than what you've come up with.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I said the Sharingan is separate from the eye. And the ability of Sharingan isn't  sight, It's detection


That doesn't explain why it wouldn't be able to see the type of light a normal eye can.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_No, implying that the third tomo helped Sasuke to better predict Naruto's movements._

Understandable, which allows him to react in time. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that his reaction time becomes physically faster, like to Owen Mercer's for example.

_I understand it's never been stated like that, but it would be the only way for the user to better percieve movement. Nothing else would make sense._

Naruto Manga Volume 26, Chapter 230.

He punches the image that denotes Naruto's future movement.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> But seeing details better isn't going to help your reflexes to attacks. Like I said before; that's like giving someone eye glasses to enhance their vision, and expecting them to acquire better reflexes.



Your example sucks because glasses don't give you the kind of fucking insight Sharingan gives you.



> Then what is it?



Predicting body movements -__-


> ... You haven't provided any arguments that explain how the Sharingan works, all you've done is bat down my theory with no theory of your own.
> 
> You say the way I see it is incorrect, but you provide nothing to support the contrary.



I gave you so many fucking examples and points from the manga, you just choose to ignore them or pretend like they mean something different that supports your argument.

You're the one not supporting your own arguement. You say Sharingan sees the future? Prove it, despite Zabuza and Kakashi saying it and everytime in the manga sharingan is used, it never predicts anything but body movements.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> Naruto Manga Volume 26, Chapter 230.
> 
> He punches the image that denotes Naruto's future movement.



I showed him this, and he ignored it.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No you weren't.
> 
> *Quote:
> At first... but then when Naruto went Kyuubi mode, Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements, and give him better reflexes.*


... 

That's exactly what I said in that quote... "Sasuke needed the third tomo to *predict his movements*".

Are you illiterate?



			
				suzemabachi said:
			
		

> How about FUCKING PREDICTING MOVEMENTS BASED ON THE BODY.


That's not explaining how it works... that's explaining the outcome.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _No, implying that the third tomo helped Sasuke to better predict Naruto's movements._
> 
> Understandable, which allows him to react in time. However, it doesn't necessarily mean that his reaction time becomes physically faster, like to Owen Mercer's for example.


I never said it does! 

I said his perception of movements increase.



			
				comic book guy said:
			
		

> _I understand it's never been stated like that, but it would be the only way for the user to better percieve movement. Nothing else would make sense._
> 
> Naruto Manga Volume 26, Chapter 230.
> 
> He punches the image that denotes Naruto's future movement.


But how would he see that future movement?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> That's not explaining how it works... that's explaining the outcome.



Sigh...I've said this many times. It sees every detail and uses that insight to predict how the body is going to move.



> That's exactly what I said in that quote... "Sasuke needed the third tomo to predict his movements".



No you fucking didn't. Read the damn quote. You said it gives him better REFLEXES.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_But how would he see that future movement?_

In the chapter, Sasuke with the 3 Tomoe Sharingan sees the image of where Naruto would move to next. The image denotes where Naruto's body would move.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade is just trying to screw up the thread with bullshit, so he should be ignored now.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Your example sucks because glasses don't give you the kind of fucking insight Sharingan gives you.
> 
> 
> 
> Predicting body movements -__-


HOOOOOOW!?!?



			
				Sumemabachi said:
			
		

> I gave you so many fucking examples and points from the manga, you just choose to ignore them or pretend like they mean something different that supports your argument.


The 2 manga scans you gave don't explain how it works. All Zabuza said was it's an evolved perception of movement. All that was said in the other one was that he could see where naruto was going to move... neither of those scans proved that his abilities are limited to body movements *alone*.




			
				Suzemabachi said:
			
		

> You're the one not supporting your own arguement. You say Sharingan sees the future? Prove it, despite Zabuza and Kakashi saying it and everytime in the manga sharingan is used, it never predicts anything but body movements.


I said the Sharingan let's you see things in slower motion. And all Zabuza and Kakashi said was that it grants better perception of movements.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> HOOOOOOW!?!?
> 
> 
> The 2 manga scans you gave don't explain how it works. All Zabuza said was it's an evolved perception of movement. All that was said in the other one was that he could see where naruto was going to move... neither of those scans proved that his abilities are limited to body movements *alone*.
> ...



If it didn't say it slows down time it doesn't. 

I'm looking through the manga scans now and I don't see anything about time slowing down for the user

It sounds like you're assuming that it slows down time for the user and taking that as fact


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Sigh...I've said this many times. It sees every detail and uses that insight to predict how the body is going to move.


... When you say it sees every detail, explain what you mean by that. Because that's not saying shit.

Seeing every detail is basically saying better vision. But as i've said, better vision isn't going to help you react to attacks.



No you fucking didn't. Read the damn quote. You said it gives him better REFLEXES.[/QUOTE]
Yeh, reflexes; as in adjusting to the movement of the object, and reacting accordingly...


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> _But how would he see that future movement?_
> 
> In the chapter, Sasuke with the 3 Tomoe Sharingan sees the image of where Naruto would move to next. The image denotes where Naruto's body would move.


But that doesn't explain *how* he sees the future movement.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Renegade is just trying to screw up the thread with bullshit, so he should be ignored now.


A typical reaction from someone who is frustrated by their own stupidity.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> I said the Sharingan let's you see things in slower motion. And all Zabuza and Kakashi said was that it grants better perception of movements.



Again, its NOT slow motion, and what Zabuza said is alot more fucking proof than anything you said. You haven't posted any examples from the manga at all. You're just going by your opinion instead of fact.

And the fact is that Sharingan isn't seeing slow motion. Its said in manga, its clearly shown, and you're pulling the slow motion stuff out of your ass and you need to stop. 


> The 2 manga scans you gave don't explain how it works. All Zabuza said was it's an evolved perception of movement. All that was said in the other one was that he could see where naruto was going to move... neither of those scans proved that his abilities are limited to body movements alone.



Well, thats all that was done. So thats all you can use. Untill a Sharingan user predicts the movement of light, shut up.

You are speculating. Speculation is bad in battledome, as we go by feats.



> HOOOOOOW!?!?



Seriously, go back and read the last two pages. And don't ignore anything. Read all of it.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> A typical reaction from someone who is frustrated by their own stupidity.



Says the guy who thought Sasuke could beat Sanji.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> If it didn't say it slows down time it doesn't.
> 
> I'm looking through the manga scans now and I don't see anything about time slowing down for the user
> 
> It sounds like you're assuming that it slows down time for the user and taking that as fact


Not slowing down time, but *seeming* like it slows down time for the user, by giving ample communication between the optic nerve and the brain.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Not slowing down time, but *seeming* like it slows down time for the user, by giving ample communication between the optic nerve and the brain.



Proof besides your imagination?

If it does what you say, then why the fuck couldn't Sasuke beat Rock Lee. Sasuke's speed wouldn't have had anything to do with it if he sees Rock Lee in slow motion.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_neither of those scans proved that his abilities are limited to body movements alone._

Though with double standard, all examples so far depicted body movement.

_I said the Sharingan let's you see things in slower motion._

And this would explain the future movement images how?

_But that doesn't explain how he sees the future movement._

One could use a comparison with Cassandra Cain's ability of reading body movement, or one could argue that the 3 Tomoe Sharingan is a form of precog.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 26, 2006)

You're all kinda forgetting that Sharingan couldn't predict Kyuubi-Narutos chakra attacks at all. That alone is a reason enough to believe that sharingan can't predict energy attacks.

Sharingan gives limited foresight to future, not slow-mo vision. It constructs a most likely outcome based on the observations of opponents movements and muscles. Then it displays it to the user, who can start reacting to the coming motion somewhat earlier than he normally would be able to.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> You're all kinda forgetting that Sharingan couldn't predict Kyuubi-Narutos chakra attacks at all. That alone is a reason enough to believe that sharingan can't predict energy attacks.
> 
> Sharingan gives limited foresight to future, not slow-mo vision. It constructs a most likely outcome based on the observations of opponents movements and muscles. Then it displays it to the user, who can start reacting to the coming motion somewhat earlier than he normally would be able to.



Renegade doesn't care.


----------



## Hiruma (Aug 26, 2006)

It is explaining how it works. It sees how hte muscles move and predicts the movements.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> You're all kinda forgetting that Sharingan couldn't predict Kyuubi-Narutos chakra attacks at all. That alone is a reason enough to believe that sharingan can't predict energy attacks.
> 
> Sharingan gives limited foresight to future, not slow-mo vision. It constructs a most likely outcome based on the observations of opponents movements and muscles. Then it displays it to the user, who can start reacting to the coming motion somewhat earlier than he normally would be able to.



That's what I was trying to say with my limited knowledge.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Again, its NOT slow motion, and what Zabuza said is alot more fucking proof than anything you said. You haven't posted any examples from the manga at all. You're just going by your opinion instead of fact.


I'm giving explanation of how it would work. You posted meaningless scans that did nothing for your argument. You're saying that the Sharingan is limited to only body movement. You showed that scan of zabuza explaining it, but all he said was that it grants the user better perception of movement in general. None of the scans you posted provided evidence to your argument that it is limited to only body movement.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> And the fact is that Sharingan isn't seeing slow motion. Its said in manga, its clearly shown, and you're pulling the slow motion stuff out of your ass and you need to stop.


What's said in the manga? All that is said in the manga is that is grants the user better perception of movement. That doesn't mean that it is limited to only body movement.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Well, thats all that was done. So thats all you can use. Untill a Sharingan user predicts the movement of light, shut up.
> 
> You are speculating. Speculation is bad in battledome, as we go by feats.


I'm not speculating, I'm giving the only feasible explanation of how the Sharingan works, since it hasn't been specifically explained in the manga, nor by you. Until *you* have an explanation that is actually an explanation, I suggest *you* shut up.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Seriously, go back and read the last two pages. And don't ignore anything. Read all of it.


I read all of it... nothing proves that the Sharingan is limited to body movements alone.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> I read all of it... nothing proves that the Sharingan is limited to body movements alone.



And what proves that it isn't limited besides your crappy speculation with no evidence?

Speculation we don't use in the battledome btw.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> You're all kinda forgetting that Sharingan couldn't predict Kyuubi-Narutos chakra attacks at all. That alone is a reason enough to believe that sharingan can't predict energy attacks.


Naruto's Kyuubi chakra movements were eradic and unpredictable. Cyclops eye beams are linear and easy to predict, especially with the Sharingan.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> And what proves that it isn't limited?


What proves that it is?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> Naruto's Kyuubi chakra movements were eradic and unpredictable.



But how are the unpredictable if Sasuke slows down time? o_O

Contradicting, aren't we?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> What proves that it is?



Your speculation being retarded and nothing in the manga backing up your claim. Thats what.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_Cyclops eye beams are linear and easy to predict, especially with the Sharingan._

If the Sharingan can predict the movement of energy.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Naruto's Kyuubi chakra movements were eradic and unpredictable. Cyclops eye beams are linear and easy to predict, especially with the Sharingan.



Your argument sucks though, since sharingan is supposed to exactly help with hard to predict opponents. Sharingan wouldn't be regarded with such respect if all you had to do to fool it was to move erratically. I don't remember the reason for not predicting them being because of the erratic behauvior of them. You saying them being unpredictable is almost like conceding your point.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_You showed that scan of zabuza explaining it, but all he said was that it grants the user better perception of movement in general. None of the scans you posted provided evidence to your argument that it is limited to only body movement._

Depends whether you interpret Zabuza's comment of movement being body movement or general movement of all things.

_And what proves that it isn't limited? 

What proves that it is?_

What's been shown in the manga depicts how the Sharingan can be applied so far. We can speculate all the way until something concrete proves or disproves it, but for now, we have to go with what's been established so far.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> What's been shown in the manga depicts how the Sharingan can be applied so far. We can speculate all the way until something concrete proves or disproves it, but for now, we have to go with what's been established so far.



Renegade doesn't care.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Your speculation being retarded and nothing in the manga backing up your claim. Thats what.


It's not a speculation, it's an explanation. And much better one than yours.

You have nothing in the manga backing up your claim either... All you have is Zabuza saying that it grants better perception of movement. How does that prove that it's limited to only body movement? You're a moron.

Btw, I find it funny that you leave me neg rep with no name just because you're frustrated by your own stupidity. You have got to be the most imature and ignorant person I have ever came in contact with on this forum to date.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_It's not a speculation, it's an explanation. And much better one than yours._

Yes, "the absence of proof does not mean the proof of absence."

_You have nothing in the manga backing up your claim either... All you have is Zabuza saying that it grants better perception of movement. How does that prove that it's limited to only body movement? _

It depends on how one interprets the statement, movement being body movement or movement for all things in general. Body movement prediction is obviously clear. I don't remember whether the predictions extends to physical bodies and to the non-physical.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> It's not a speculation, it's an explanation. And much better one than yours.
> 
> You have nothing in the manga backing up your claim either... All you have is Zabuza saying that it grants better perception of movement. How does that prove that it's limited to only body movement? You're a moron.



I'm an idiot? Many would agree that you are made of nothing but bullshit, fanboy, and retarded logic that makes no sense. *remembers naruto and sasuke vs luffy and sanji thread*

You're on your way to being Phenomenol Jr.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I'm an idiot? Many would agree that you are made of nothing but bullshit, fanboy, and retarded logic that makes no sense. *remembers naruto and sasuke vs luffy and sanji thread*
> 
> You're on your way to being Phenomenol Jr.


What about that thread... I did nothing but support false statements that were being made about the Narutoverse. Stop trying to bring in unrelevent bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic, in attempts to tarnish my character.

I wish I hadn't taken out that idoitic quote you made from my sig.

And btw, was it not you who didn't realize this was a fake post:
Click


----------



## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> You're on your way to being Phenomenol Jr.



I believe that is awarded to Sharingan Yondaime (or w/e his name is).

He said the Living Tribunal cannot defeat all DB characters


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> I wish I hadn't taken out that idoitic quote you made from my sig.



Like my sig?


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Like my sig?


It's great! 

I stand by everything I say in those statements, and there's nothing wrong with them. And like you did (because you were ashamed of your own words), i'm not gonna go running to a moderator asking them to request that you to take it out of your sig.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> It's great!
> 
> I stand by everything I say in it, and like you did (because you were ashamed of your own words), i'm not gonna go run to a moderator asking them to request that you to take it out of your sig.



Yay! I get approval from the guy who says Sasuke beats Sanji!

I feel special! 

You still haven't proved how Sharingan sees the future, in fact, all you did was attack me and ignore everyone else. Just so you know.



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Naruto's Kyuubi chakra movements were eradic and unpredictable. Cyclops eye beams are linear and easy to predict, especially with the Sharingan.



LOL! This one is especially sig worthy.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> I believe that is awarded to Sharingan Yondaime (or w/e his name is).
> 
> He said the Living Tribunal cannot defeat all DB characters



That could be somewhat forgiveable, if he didn't know what LT can do.

But if he said that after knowing LT can do. . . I'd just shake my head, and sigh.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Yay! I get approval from the guy who says Sasuke beats Sanji!


Stop confusing me with LaZyL0o. I never said that. It's a very shameful thing to put words in other people's mouth. Unless you can actually find a post of me saying that, and providing a link to that specific post, I suggest not make up shit about people, it just shows how pathetic and frustrated you really are.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Stop confusing me with LaZyL0o. I never said that. It's a very shameful thing to put words in other people's mouth. Unless you can actually find a post of me saying that, and providing a link to that specific post, I suggest not make up shit about people, it just shows how pathetic and frustrated you really are.



Says the guy who ignored every single post just because he felt like fighting someone who pwnd him in the past.

EDIT: Did I say 'guy'? I meant Phenomenol Jr.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> LOL! This one is especially sig worthy.
> 
> 
> > Naruto's Kyuubi chakra movements were eradic and unpredictable. Cyclops eye beams are linear and easy to predict, especially with the Sharingan.
> ...


... It's a valid statement, I have no problems with you putting that into your sig. 

Frustration can often cause desperation. 

By all means, put it in your sig. Whatever makes you sleep at night.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Says the guy who ignored every single post just because he felt like fighting someone who pwnd him in the past.


Says the moron who didn't realize this was a fake post:

Click


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Frustration can often cause desperation.
> 
> By all means, put it in your sig. Whatever makes you sleep at night.



Desperation? Surely you don't mean like this....


*Spoiler*: __ 





			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> What about that thread... I did nothing but support false statements that were being made about the Narutoverse. Stop trying to bring in unrelevent bullshit that has nothing to do with the topic, in attempts to tarnish my character.
> 
> I wish I hadn't taken out that idoitic quote you made from my sig.
> 
> ...


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Desperation? Surely you don't mean like this....
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


That's not desperation. You didn't realize a blattanly obvious fake post, and I brought it to surface.

You on the other hand are desperately searching for whatever posts you can find of me that seem somewhat wrong, and appear to be having no luck.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

@Renegade: about the sharingan, so far it has only been able to predict bodily motion. It works on the premise that any action you do is preceded by a number of smaller movements as your body prepares. If you stand up from a chair, your leg muscles become tense and your back begins to tip forward in preparation for the movement. Sharingan sees these small preparation movments and uses then to predict the final movement. That's how a sharingan user can appear to see things before they happen. The sharingan user's reflexes aren't increased, he/she just has a longer time in which to react. 

When it comes to energy, there aren't any preceding movements or in the case or sasuke vs kyuubi naruto, some indicator that Kyuubi chakra is about to launch.

The way this would work in this particular fight, is that Itachi would have to figure out from the movements of Cyclop's eyes, where the beam would go. This is a problem for him because unless I'm mistaken, Cyclops wears a visor.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> The way this would work in this particular fight, is that Itachi would have to figure out from the movements of Cyclop's eyes, where the beam would go. This is a problem for him because unless I'm mistaken, Cyclops wears a visor.


Or he just needs to see which way his head is pointing.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> This is a problem for him because unless I'm mistaken, Cyclops wears a visor.



In this fight, Cyclops has no visor. So whenever he just opens his eyes, he fires the beams. To win, Itachi will have be bookin', because Scott can beat him if he  even gets a good look at Itachi.

Also, Renegade doesn't care. He just wanted to fight me.


----------



## konflikti (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> This is a problem for him because unless I'm mistaken, Cyclops wears a visor.



You are. Cyclops doesn't have visor in this match-up.

This pretty much boils down to if it is blood-lust match-up or not.

Bloodlusted, Cyclops obliterates pretty much everything in his vision and there isn't much Itachi can do to him before getting blasted to oblivion. That is if they start in front of each other.

Not bloodlusted, Itachi has a chance of dodging the beam and beating Cyclops up.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_Or he just needs to see which way his head is pointing_

Depends on the range of Cyclops' optic blasts.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Also, Renegade doesn't care. He just wanted to fight me.


Said the fool who is desperately searching for posts made by me, to put in his sig.


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

Can we get back to the debate at hand here?


----------



## Endless Mike (Aug 26, 2006)

Yeah, this thread is just turning into a personal feud.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Said the fool who is desperately searching for posts made by me, to put in his sig.



Said the guy who proved my point by not debating his and keeps attacking me.

Way to show how much more mature you are than me buddy. 

But then again..you never did debate. You merely posted your totally wrong opinion and insisted that it was fact when you never had anything to back it up at all, and admitted it too. I must be really bad at this if I didn't see those 'fake posts'...Just goes to show people how stupid I am, just like how you went waaay out of your way to show.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Can we get back to the debate at hand here?



I was trying to. Renegade just hates black people though.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

How wide is the angle of Cyclop's blasts?


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

Max range so far is the scan on page 2. I can't remember whether Cyclops shot an optic blast with an even wider range.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> I was trying to. Renegade just hates black people though.



That's going too far


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Havoc said:
			
		

> Impressive optic blast:




Looks to be all his peripheral vision.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> That's going too far



We're done with Renegade. Let it go.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> We're done with Renegade. Let it go.



I wasn't in the argument


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Said the guy who proved my point by not debating his and keeps attacking me.



Said the guy who completely contradicted himself by hypocritically doing the exact same thing in the same post.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Way to show how much more mature you are than me buddy.


Hmm...



> I was trying to. Renegade just hates black people though.


And *i'm* being imature?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Said the guy who completely contradicted himself by hypocritically doing the exact same thing in the same post.
> 
> 
> Hmm...
> ...



Way to get back in the debate.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

That third page confused me for a moment, I've become so used to reading the manga from right to left. His angle of attack is maybe to wide to dodge above ground. Itachi may have to attack from below...


----------



## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

Regardless of the 'last-word-syndrome', it would be best to cease bickering.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Comic Book Guy said:
			
		

> Regardless of the 'last-word-syndrome', it would be best to cease bickering.


I'm done.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> That third page confused me for a moment, I've become so used to reading the manga from right to left. His angle of attack is maybe to wide to dodge above ground. Itachi may have to attack from below...



What most people would do when something suprises them like that, they look to see what or where was. If Itachi attacks from the ground, Cyclops will look at the ground.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

suzu said:
			
		

> What most people would do when something suprises them like that, they look to see what or where was. If Itachi attacks from the ground, Cyclops will look at the ground.


From the first attack, Itachi would no that it was related to cylops's eye's. He could choose to attack from below and behind. The time it takes for cyclops to turn and look would be more than enough for Itachi. Decoys would work against cyclops, and who's better at decoy attacks than Itachi?


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> From the first attack, Itachi would no that it was related to cylops's eye's. He could choose to attack from below and behind. The time it takes for cyclops to turn and look would be more than enough for Itachi. Decoys would work against cyclops, and who's better at decoy attacks than Itachi?



Itachi is fast, but not that fast.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Questions for somebody who knows a lot about Naruto. 

1.Does all shinobi have faster then normal human speed? because it dosen't seem like it. 

It looked liked the only exceptions were guys like Rock Lee and Sasuke. 

2. Does all shinobi have stronger than normal strength? it looked like the only exceptions were people like Sakura and Tsunade.

The anwsers to these two questions will decide this argument


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> 1.Does all shinobi have faster then normal human speed? because it dosen't seem like it.



They are all pretty much normal humans, but chakra enhanced. They can move fast like that because they put their chakra into their feet and legs and such. Most ninja are indeed trained to be faster than the avereage civilian in Naruto. 



> 2. Does all shinobi have stronger than normal strength? it looked like the only exceptions were people like Sakura and Tsunade.



Nope. Its very possible that Itachi is weaker than Cyclops physically.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Because in the Airbender vs Naruto thread, Renegade assumed that every shinobi would be automatically faster and stronger than all the benders.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Questions for somebody who knows a lot about Naruto.
> 
> 1.Does all shinobi have faster then normal human speed? because it dosen't seem like it.
> 
> It looked liked the only exceptions were guys like Rock Lee and Sasuke.


And Naruto, and Gai, and Neji, and Kakashi, and Orochimaru, and Jiraiya, and pretty much every other main character... 

Of course narutoverse shinobi are much faster than any normal human... What kind of a question is that?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> And Naruto, and Gai, and Neji, and Kakashi, and Orochimaru, and Jiraiya, and pretty much every other main character...
> 
> Of course narutoverse shinobi are much faster than any normal human... What kind of a question is that?



Not really, Naruto is slow as snails. You're starting to look very fanboyish.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> And Naruto, and Gai, and Neji, and Kakashi, and Orochimaru, and Jiraiya, and pretty much every other main character...
> 
> Of course narutoverse shinobi are much faster than any normal human... What kind of a question is that?



One that doesn't call for rudeness.


----------



## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

> Questions for somebody who knows a lot about Naruto.
> 
> 1.Does all shinobi have faster then normal human speed? because it dosen't seem like it.
> 
> ...


Naruto ninja are superhuman. Their strength, reflexes and speed are above normal humans. That's why they are the military force, only ninjas can fight ninjas in Naruto



			
				suzu said:
			
		

> Itachi is fast, but not that fast.


Think he is that fast. Destroying a clan of sharingan users considering it's potential is no small feat. He posses good bodily speed as well. In the instance where Kakashi was to meet Sasuke, Itachi and Kisame were able to leave the cafe in a the blink of an eye, with no one but the most experienced ninjas noticing.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Not really, Naruto is slow as snails. You're starting to look very fanboyish.


Comparing the narutoverse speed to X-Men speed, is like comparing a Ferrari to a bicycle. I've never seen anyone other than quicksilver move as fast as i've seen characters in the narutoverse move. 

Why do people always feel the need to call someone a fanboy just because they're making statements that support a side. It's not fanboyism, it's the truth.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> Naruto ninja are superhuman. Their strength, reflexes and speed are above normal humans. That's why they are the military force, only ninjas can fight ninjas in Naruto
> 
> Think he is that fast. Destroying a clan of sharingan users considering it's potential is no small feat. He posses good bodily speed as well. In the instance where Kakashi was to meet Sasuke, Itachi and Kisame were able to leave the cafe in a the blink of an eye, with no one but the most experienced ninjas noticing.



I mean shinobi as a whole when I ask these questions.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

blacklusterseph004 said:
			
		

> Naruto ninja are superhuman. Their strength, reflexes and speed are above normal humans. That's why they are the military force, only ninjas can fight ninjas in Naruto


^ You gonna call him a fanboy aswell?


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Comparing the narutoverse speed to X-Men speed, is like comparing a Ferrari to a bicycle. I've never seen anyone other than quicksilver move as fast as i've seen characters in the narutoverse move.
> 
> Why do people always feel the need to call someone a fanboy just because they're making statements that support a side. _*It's not fanboyism, it's the truth*_.



Look at your previous posts dude


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> They are all pretty much normal humans, but chakra enhanced. They can move fast like that because they put their chakra into their feet and legs and such. Most ninja are indeed trained to be faster than the avereage civilian in Naruto.
> 
> Nope. Its very possible that Itachi is weaker than Cyclops physically.



...
Were these trully serious replies?  
And chakra is a part of the Narutoverse characters bodies, them molding it to increase speed does not matter, that is their speed.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> One that doesn't call for rudeness.


Wasn't being rude... it was a queston with a completely obvious answer. Only a moron would think narutoverse shinobi move at the same speed as a regular human.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> ...
> Were these trully serious replies?
> And chakra is a part of the Narutoverse characters bodies, them molding it to increase speed does not matter, that is their speed.



Not really. Am I going to get trouble to get this anwser? 

I'm asking for base speed and strength for shinobi in general from Naruto, not as a result from techs


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

> Naruto ninja are superhuman. Their strength, reflexes and speed are above normal humans. That's why they are the military force, only ninjas can fight ninjas in Naruto



Strength? No. Not at all. Only Gai has displayed a sort of superhuman strength that is not a jutsu. Reflexes? Regular humans have the potential to gain that. They are just better trained than the average human in Naruto. 
The reflexes are not superhuman. Cyclops got that.



> Think he is that fast. Destroying a clan of sharingan users considering it's potential is no small feat. He posses good bodily speed as well. In the instance where Kakashi was to meet Sasuke, Itachi and Kisame were able to leave the cafe in a the blink of an eye, with no one but the most experienced ninjas noticing.



Cyclops could kill all the Uchiha too. Quicker than Itachi did. Walk up to their district and blast it full power. 

BTW, blink of an eye = demolished landscape where Itachi can't hide.

He never did a doton, so I don't know where people are getting that from.



> It's not fanboyism, it's the truth.



No, other people post the truth. You post fanboyish opinions.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Look at your previous posts dude


What about them... I find nothing wrong with them. I was arguing something I believe to be true.

Besides, look at your posts in the Avatarverse vs. Narutoverse thread. I honestly got a pos-rep saying *you* were a fanboy, and that I should't bother arguing with you. So don't give me that bs about me being a fanboy, because you've contributed nothing to either threads.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> ...
> Were these trully serious replies?
> And chakra is a part of the Narutoverse characters bodies, them molding it to increase speed does not matter, that is their speed.



???

Not really.


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Not really. Am I going to get trouble to get this anwser?
> 
> I'm asking for base speed and strength for shinobi in general from Naruto, not as a result from techs



What do you mean a result from techs? 
It is the utmost and amongest the most basic things in narutoverse to mold chakra and move to increase your speed. If you want to exclude chakra from you're acessment of narutoninja's speed you cannot properly acess them.



			
				Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> ???
> 
> Not really.



this is what I was trying to say, not that it is not a technique, but that it is so basic a technique that it is a part of the narutoverse and should be a part in judging their speed.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> No, other people post the truth. You post fanboyish opinions.


I'm not even taking you seriously anymore, so don't bother with your pointless remarks.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

*You pissed me off*



			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> What about them... I find nothing wrong with them. I was arguing something I believe to be true.
> 
> Besides, look at your posts in the Avatarverse vs. Narutoverse thread. I honestly got a pos-rep saying *you* were a fanboy, and that I should't bother arguing with you. So don't give me that bs about me being a fanboy, because you've contributed nothing to either threads.





			
				Renegade said:
			
		

> Wasn't being rude... it was a queston with a completely obvious answer. Only a moron would think narutoverse shinobi move at the same speed as a regular human.



I stated the truth and I don't give a damn about rep. 

Phenomenol may bullshit, but you bullshit and you're a rude bastard. You're full of shit and you're a flaming fanboy. 

I had a positive opinion of you, but that positive opinion practically evaporated when you insulted me like this.

 You need to evolve from trolling and insulting people who don't agree with you


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> I'm not even taking you seriously anymore, so don't bother with your pointless remarks.



Seriously, get out of the battledome. All you do is being condescending to people. You do nothing but post bullshit, like Sasuke couldn't predict chakra because it was moving at random, and be an asshole to anyone who disagrees and just say they are wrong despite what evidence they post. And its not just to me and in this thread either.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> What do you mean a result from techs?
> It is the utmost and amongest the most basic things in narutoverse to mold chakra and move to increase your speed. If you want to exclude chakra from you're acessment of narutoninja's speed you cannot properly acess them.



What I meant was the pure strength and speed without the chakra compared to similar series like ranma 1%2 and normal humans and then apply the chakra-enhanced strength and speed


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> I stated the truth and I don't give a damn about rep.
> 
> Phenomenol may bullshit, but you bullshit and you're a rude bastard. You're full of shit and you're a flaming fanboy.
> 
> ...


Lol, it's only morons like you and suzu that bring out the rudeness in me. 

I had to argue with you for 2 pages because you felt that in the battle between Narutoverse and Avatarverse, genjutsu should not be applied, simply because you say "chakra" doesn't exist in the avatarverse. And you're calling *me* a fanboy?

Haha, I can't believe this shit.


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Lol, it's only morons like you and suzu that bring out the rudeness in me.
> 
> I had to argue with you for 2 pages because you felt that in the battle between Narutoverse and Avatarverse, genjutsu should not be applied, simply because you say "chakra" doesn't exist in the avatarverse. And you're calling *me* a fanboy?
> 
> Haha, I can't believe this shit.



Another thing, you often don't argue. You just go ''Lol, you kidding? that dumb. you stupid. i dont need to say why because im smart"


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Lol, it's only morons like you and suzu that bring out the rudeness in me.
> 
> I had to argue with you for 2 pages because you felt that in the battle between Narutoverse and Avatarverse, genjutsu should not be applied, simply because you say "chakra" doesn't exist in the avatarverse. And you're calling *me* a fanboy?
> 
> Haha, I can't believe this shit.



Chakra doesn't exsist in Avatarverse, you stupid jackass.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> Seriously, get out of the battledome. All you do is being condescending to people. You do nothing but post bullshit


Likewise.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Chakra doesn't exsist in Avatarverse, you stupid jackass.


AHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!! YOU'RE STILL ARGUING THAT!?!?!?!

AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH!!!!!


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> AHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAH!!!!! YOU'RE STILL ARGUING THAT!?!?!?!
> 
> AHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAH!!!!!



God, you're stupid


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> God, you're stupid


Nah, just tired of you're ignorance.

Click

Click

Whoever wants to look at that argument can be the judge. I'm done arguing with monkeys.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> Nah, just tired of you're ignorance.
> 
> Click
> 
> ...



all I see is a fool(That's you) trying to apply real world physics to two fictional worlds


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> all I see is a fool(That's you) trying to apply real world physics to two fictional worlds


And as i've said:


> Click
> 
> Click
> 
> Whoever wants to look at that argument can be the judge. I'm done arguing with monkeys.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> And as i've said:



And I'm done with arguing with ignorant dumb fuck trolls


----------



## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

To clarify: everyone in NARUTO has chakra. Not everyone believes in ki, not all writers incorperate it into their stories, Avatar is one of them. They say chakra is something everyone has in Naruto, Avatar is not Naruto.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> To clarify: everyone in NARUTO has chakra. Not everyone believes in ki, not all writers incorperate it into their stories, Avatar is one of them. They say chakra is something everyone has in Naruto, Avatar is not Naruto.



That guy is a complete asshole. I'm thinking long and hard about Ignoring him


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> To clarify: everyone in NARUTO has chakra. Not everyone believes in ki, not all writers incorperate it into their stories, Avatar is one of them. They say chakra is something everyone has in Naruto, Avatar is not Naruto.


What joy, we got another one.

As i've stated countless times in the argument which i'm sure you didn't even bother to look at:



> For the sake of all battledome battles, physics from both series must be transferred into a common universe where both physics apply. That's how these battles work, you can't simply ignore abilities from one series just because the physics behind them are different.


----------



## Renegade (Aug 26, 2006)

And with that. I will make my exist from this thread infested with morons.

I bid you, adue.


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Renegade said:
			
		

> What joy, we got another one.
> 
> As i've stated countless times in the argument which i'm sure you didn't even bother to look at:



Nobody goes by your retarded rules, stupid ass. Edit: Fuck you loser


----------



## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 26, 2006)

Imo, on sharigan

Sasuke cannot predict pure chakra and that is what the Kyuubi claw was. The sharigan is like a weakened precog on physical bodied things when in it's sight. The sharigan reads subtle movements of muscles in the body in order to predict how the opponent will react. This then can be said to be so exact and concise that it is able to formulate a continued methology of attack. The sharigan users is not simply one step ahead but several. They know the punch is coming before the user even begins to throw it.( in terms of several, I mean that before you throw a punch there are steps, while you throw it there are steps, and when you're done throwing it there are steps.) movement before the action, movement during and movent after. 
proof...

Anbu Spare Time

Anbu Spare Time

Anbu Spare Time

Anbu Spare Time  


Anbu Spare Time
(Notice there how Naruto gets behind Sasuke, and yet Sasuke is able to dodge.)This is not simple anticipation,Sasuke knew for a fact where naruto would be before naruto would be there himself. Otherwise, how could he have dodged by side stepping if he didn't know Naruto was going to attack like that? Seriouly, ee was not facing Naruto in the instance where Naruto was behind. 

----


----------



## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> Imo, on sharigan, I'm not sure if this was posted already but...
> 
> Sasuke cannot predict pure chakra and that is what the Kyuubi claw was. The sharigan is like a weakened precog on physical bodied things when in it's sight. The sharigan reads subtle movements of muscles in the body in order to predict how the opponent will react. This then can be said to be so exact and concise that it is able to formulate a continued methology of attack. The sharigan users is not simply one step ahead but several. They know the punch is coming before the user even begins to throw it.( in terms of several, I mean that before you throw a punch there are steps, while you throw it there are steps and when you're done throwing it there are steps.)
> 
> ...



That settles it. Great job on posting this


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## Suzumebachi (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> Imo, on sharigan, I'm not sure if this was posted already but...
> 
> Sasuke cannot predict pure chakra and that is what the Kyuubi claw was. The sharigan is like a weakened precog on physical bodied things when in it's sight. The sharigan reads subtle movements of muscles in the body in order to predict how the opponent will react. This then can be said to be so exact and concise that it is able to formulate a continued methology of attack. The sharigan users is not simply one step ahead but several. They know the punch is coming before the user even begins to throw it.( in terms of several, I mean that before you throw a punch there are steps, while you throw it there are steps and when you're done throwing it there are steps.)
> 
> ...




The only who was disputing this was Renegade, and even though everyone told him he was wrong, he insisted that we were wrong, or rather that I was wrong since he ignored everyone but me.

But he's gone now.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Suzumebachi said:
			
		

> The only who was disputing this was Renegade, and even though everyone told him he was wrong, he insisted that we were wrong, or rather that I was wrong since he ignored everyone but me.
> 
> But he's gone now.



The Troll thought neg-repping me was doing something.


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## Cthulhu-versailles (Aug 26, 2006)

@ rild

 I thought about the speed and strength rating part of naruto chars and I stand by my original statement even more then before. Speed and strength are too hard to predict without including chakra. Outside of using Sasuke before he was even a Genin, all we could do is guesswork on speed. Although it should be noted that even that Sasuke, pre genin, although genin level, already showed faster then human movement. 

-Why is it to hard to predict? 
-Sasuke stated Lee had some strong chakra on his hands. Lee may be a taijutsu beast, but what Sasuke said does not seem unique to Lee in the least. Nor is it. For instances, Tsunade has developed a technique to expotentially increasse chakra and release it. This technique, along with the fact that molding chakra to one's feet is amongst the most basic ninja techniques, makes me believe that chakra on the hands is also likely an ongoing thing. Hence, ninja's would be projecting and or have chakra on their hands when they attack as well. Even if the level is minute, it would still be there. Seriously, I think this is more then plausible considering the techniques we've seen, Sasuke's comment, and the overall importance of chakra in Narutoverse. So, strength without chakra isn't something you can really judge well either. You need to include chakra. Speed is even worse to judge.


-Ambigious situation on speed -
Kakashi and some other Jounin were standing atop far away and Neji was already in the process of lunging. Yet, they were all able to move to block him. Even Neji did not see them appear, as is denoted by the exclamation mark. That speed is utterly beyond human. The point is thatit is impossible to say whether chakra was gathered to their feet or not. Although, I would say it may be evident to say it was not, based on the principle of them not having time to do so. However, in reality, chakra modling could likely be done that fast. Without thought behind it. It is so basic a technique, imagine refining it... So, basically, in this situation whether or not they molded chakra to their feet to move is utterly ambigious. Arguments can be made for either side. We just don't know. 

What we do know though is that Kurenai was amongst those that travel that distance to block Neji. Itachi still pwned her in close combat. Itachi also pwned kakashi. Cyclops needs to have time to fire his blast and I'm not sure if Cylops would be able to do that before itachi moves behind him. Just look at the type of speed itachi can already deal with. Cyclops is not faster in Neji in reaction speed. C'mon. Lets be serious. You guys are forgetting that if someone can move and get behind another before the destruction comes, all that destruction is useless. ( Astonishing X-men cyclops with his visor off is uber, but if you're behind him...

Opening one's eyes may seem like a simple matter, but if someone can move faster then you can even open your eyes... imo

--
Itachi can win. Note the possible and not the absoltule. I'm assuming we are at least making Scott, if he has visor off, start with his eyes closed and need to open them or something. Otherwise it is simply silly. Cyclops starting with his eyes already open and viosr off means there would be no opponent to fight, unless they have more durability then the beam, or can move faster then the beam itself.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> @ rild
> 
> I thought about the speed and strength rating part of naruto chars and I stand by my original statement even more then before. Speed and strength are too hard to predict without including chakra. Outside of using Sasuke before he was even a Genin, all we could do is guesswork on speed. Although it should be noted that even that Sasuke, pre genin, although genin level, already showed faster then human movement.
> 
> ...



Thanks for the info. At least you took your time to explain it to me. 

Chakra is like air to Narutoverse then in terms of importance?

 I wanted to see what kind of speed and strength Cyclops and future foes of Narutoverse on OB would face


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## konflikti (Aug 26, 2006)

Udesphikaiyo said:
			
		

> --
> Itachi can win. Note the possible and not the absoltule. I'm assuming we are at least making Scott, if he has visor off, start with his eyes closed and need to open them or something. Otherwise it is simply silly. Cyclops starting with his eyes already open and viosr off means there would be no opponent to fight, unless they have more durability then the beam, or can move faster then the beam itself.



Yes. Cyclops without visor should have called some elaborate fight setting in the first post. If they start like one would assume couple random contestant do, obviously Cyclops is going to have his eyes open => no Itachi.

Orginal post should have stated something like 15 meters apart, both have eyes closed to be even somewhat fair match-up.


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## blacklusterseph004 (Aug 26, 2006)

Either that or cyclops starts with visor on, but promptly removes it or something. Itachi could then be placed at a great enough distance that he can't attack directly with the first move.


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 26, 2006)

konflikti said:
			
		

> Not bloodlusted, Itachi has a chance of dodging the beam and beating Cyclops up.



The problem I see is that not bloodlusted, it's quite in character for Cyclops to keep his eyes sealed shut and try to fight blind (or nearly blind with a few very brief attacks that are just intended to distract).

That would be utter slaughter.

A better fight IMO would be Cyclops in character with his visor vs. Itachi without his MS.


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## Master of the Sharingan (Aug 26, 2006)

Itachi Melts him w/Amaterasu.


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## Masaki (Aug 26, 2006)

Cyclops wins this fight.  They look in each other's eyes... and gg Itachi.


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## UchihaCurse (Aug 26, 2006)

People in Naruto move at superhuman speeds in battle. I seriously doubt Cyclops can match Itachi's speed, hell his eyes probably wouldn't be able to keep up with Itachi. Even with Cyclops' blasts, Itachi would have a Kunai at his throat in a second.


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## Shiron (Aug 26, 2006)

UchihaCurse said:
			
		

> People in Naruto move at superhuman speeds in battle. I seriously doubt Cyclops can match Itachi's speed, hell his eyes probably wouldn't be able to keep up with Itachi. Even with Cyclops' blasts, Itachi would have a Kunai at his throat in a second.


No, they don't. That was never stated. There is no confimation that people in Naruto are any faster than normal people. And even if that were the case, Cyclops has hit Quicksilver, a speedster who can run at the speed of sound, with his blasts before anyways, so speed is a moot issue unless you can prove Itachi to be faster than Quicksilver.


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## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

Shiron said:
			
		

> No, they don't. That was never stated. There is no confimation that people in Naruto are any faster than normal people. And even if that were the case, Cyclops has hit Quicksilver, a speedster who can run at the speed of sound, with his blasts before anyways, so speed is a moot issue unless you can prove Itachi to be faster than Quicksilver.



I dont think Quicksilver is anywhere close to the speed of sound



Is this what your thinking about when you say Cyclops has hit Quicksilver?


I'd say that falls within the 0 to 60 in 7 seconds, so quicksilver couldnt have been going top speed in that pic.


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

_I dont think Quicksilver is anywhere close to the speed of sound_

Son of M, #1 is it?

Usually, Quicksilver is written with a speed generally around sound among writers, give or take. I can't remember whether he was able to break the sound barrier though, since I don't read much on Quicksilver save for House of M.

With the Isotope E, he achieved Mach 1 speed.

During HoM, I think Quicksilver was able to achieve sonic speeds, thanks to Wanda.


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## ZergKage (Aug 26, 2006)

Not saying that thats not true, but asking you to find something like that would be tough and unreasonable so i wont.

I also dont read that much Quick Silver but everything i look at puts him around 180mph tho i think 220 is reasonable

And yes i would agree that Isotope QS is much faster than normal


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## Delta Shell (Aug 26, 2006)

Wait, people in Naruto don't move at above human speeds? Are you kidding me did I just read that?



> *No, they don't. That was never stated. There is no confimation that people in Naruto are any faster than normal people*. And even if that were the case, Cyclops has hit Quicksilver, a speedster who can run at the speed of sound, with his blasts before anyways, so speed is a moot issue unless you can prove Itachi to be faster than Quicksilver.



Oh yeah, I think I did. Are you telling me that people in Naruto aren't faster than normal people? Really? How about Rock Lee without weights for starters? How about with gates open? How about Kakashi as a kid running at super high speed with the Chidori? How about the number of times people have "vanished" and appeared behind someone? How about Yondaime (without Hiarashin) How can you call that normal human speed? What a silly comment.

Also how fast was Quicksilver moving when Cyclops hit him? Was he going at the speed of sound at that time?


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 26, 2006)

Curious, how fast does ninjas move without using chakra to enhance their speed?

_Also how fast was Quicksilver moving when Cyclops hit him? Was he going at the speed of sound at that time?_

I don't know. Judging by the art, it's quite early -- I'd say well over 10 years ago, maybe 15. I wouldn't know how fast Quicksilver was then.


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## Shiron (Aug 26, 2006)

I suppose I should have better worded that. Yes, there are some people in Naruto who can run extremely fast, like Gai and Lee. However, Itachi has not demonstrated any great speed feats; at least none that are better than Cyclops. Basically, I was arguing against the whole ninja=super fast thing. Just because someone is a ninja, doesn't mean that they can necessarily run faster than normal people. Itachi hasn't shown any real great speed feats. Therefore, the whole "Itachi is faster than Cyclops because he's a ninja" argument is null.

@CBG: There are no stated speeds, nor actual distances between vilages, so it makes it hard to calculate.


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## Delta Shell (Aug 26, 2006)

No idea. Ninjas use ckakra for everything, even tying shoelaces presumably.

Itachi doesn't have speed feats? He uses Jutsu faster than Sharingan Kakashi can see, he doesn't really _have_ to move that fast if he's creating Kage Bunshins etc at an almost invisible speed.

(Also i'll have to check but i'm sure Kakashi could follow Lee). Anyway, he _does_ seem to be pretty nonchalant about taking on characters that are already fast (Kakahi) and he has done that "appear out of nowhere" crap quite a few times.

Also there's the fact that Sasuke stills states he's weaker than Itachi and Sasuke is incredibly fast..That's not a direct feat but it's something I see as "implied". Even Genin Sasuke had "appear behind you" speed (not great but it's above human) i'm pretty sure Itachi is faster than that (anyway we know Itachi can do that too).


Edit: Hmm now that I read it again I was wrong, Quicksilver dodged Cyclops's blast he wasn't hit.


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## EvilMoogle (Aug 26, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> Is this what your thinking about when you say Cyclops has hit Quicksilver?


I've been looking at this for a while now.  Really that's a useless picture for determining the speed of Cyclops' attacks (and if that's the only time Quicksilver's gone head-to-head with Cyclops I rescend my earlier statements).

At that range, the time it would take to hit Quicksilver would be nearly instantanious from when he attacks.  But in order to attack that version of Cyclops had to actually touch his visor.

It's really more of a measure of Cyclops' reaction speed vs. Quicksilver's reaction speed.  Which doesn't really come to play in this matchup.

I'll see if I can find a better measurement of his blasts speed later.


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 26, 2006)

Your Spam-no-Jutsu won't work here


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## Delta Shell (Aug 26, 2006)

QUINTUPLE POST NO JUTSU!!


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## ZergKage (Aug 27, 2006)

EvilMoogle said:
			
		

> I've been looking at this for a while now.  Really that's a useless picture for determining the speed of Cyclops' attacks (and if that's the only time Quicksilver's gone head-to-head with Cyclops I rescend my earlier statements).
> 
> At that range, the time it would take to hit Quicksilver would be nearly instantanious from when he attacks.  But in order to attack that version of Cyclops had to actually touch his visor.
> 
> ...



All i kept hearing was about how Cyclops has tagged Quicksilver, which i've never seen in 616(has happened in the ultimates), so i started looking for it and thats what i came across and is what i thought people were talking about. Here are a few more


*Spoiler*: __


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## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 27, 2006)

Master of the Sharingan said:
			
		

> Itachi Melts him w/Amaterasu.



Foolish Master of the Sharingan.
You are wrong,
Why are you wrong?

Because you lack......right

I will show you how it's done

lolz itahci can jus amerutsu dem al lzol!


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## Aruarian (Aug 27, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> lolz itahci can jus amerutsu dem al lzol!


You enjoy doing that way too much. XD


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## Comic Book Guy (Aug 27, 2006)

ZergKage said:
			
		

> All i kept hearing was about how Cyclops has tagged Quicksilver, which i've never seen in 616(has happened in the ultimates), so i started looking for it and thats what i came across and is what i thought people were talking about. Here are a few more
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



The first image came from the Infinity Crusade, where Quicksilver was brainwashed by the Magus.

The second image came from the early days of the X-Men. And I mean early.

The scan earlier took place after the second image, but WAY before the first.


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## omg laser pew pew! (Aug 28, 2006)

Minami Ryusuke said:
			
		

> You enjoy doing that way too much. XD



It's my Datteboyo


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## Giovanni Rild (Aug 28, 2006)

blue.rellik said:
			
		

> It's my Datteboyo


Datteboyo? Explain


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## Shiron (Aug 28, 2006)

rild said:
			
		

> Datteboyo? Explain


He mean .


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