# Why Kage levels should still fear Genjutsu



## Itachі (Mar 9, 2016)

I have to say that as long as I've been here I've commonly seen people grant all competent Shinobi nigh-immunity to Genjutsu and treat Genjutsu as something that a Jonin uses to bully Genin on the playground. In my opinion, Genjutsu is a very viable threat against Kage level opponents but it seems that many people here don't share the same sentiment. I don't really agree with the notion of every competent Ninja being able to immediately discern Genjutsu and break out of it as if it were nothing to them. 

Naruto who was trained to break Genjutsu couldn't break out of Itachi's Utakata. Now, even if one can break out of conventional Genjutsu, that's not to say that it's the end. Naruto was skilled enough to force Itachi's hand, when Naruto attempted to break out of Utakata Itachi was able to strengthen his Genjutsu. To me, this suggests that for someone to break out of Utakata alone they must be more skilled at breaking Genjutsu than Itachi is at maintaining Genjutsu. Naruto was not a very powerful Shinobi but he had trained in resisting Genjutsu and he still fell to it. Yeah, nobody's probably going to take that example seriously but wait, I have more.

Danzo was definitely a Kage level and he had the advantage of Genjutsu defence in Sharingan but he still lost to Sasuke's . A few seconds had passed and Danzo had still not realised that he was even in a Genjutsu, and that's really all a Genjutsu user needs in order to kill their opponent.

Ei was a Kage but he was still caught in Madara's Genjutsu long enough for Madara's Susano'o clones to surround him. He was effectively at Madara's mercy here, he knew instantly that he was going to be caught in a Genjutsu but he didn't put up any resistance whatsoever.

Yagura was also a Kage but he wasn't just duped by Genjutsu, he was controlled by it. Yagura also had additional Genjutsu defence from the Sanbi since . If Yagura was _outright controlled_ by Genjutsu imagine how easy it would be to simply catch him in one.

Killer Bee was Kage level but he was paralysed by Sasuke's Genjutsu, though to be fair he broke out of it and proceeded to blitz the fuck out of Sasuke.

And perhaps the most infamous example of all, here Orochimaru; a Sannin, is left . Granted he could have broken out of it if Itachi didn't cut his hands off, but it doesn't change that Orochimaru, like Ei, was at the mercy of a Genjutsu user.

Danzo, Yagura, Ei and Orochimaru all would have been trained in breaking Genjutsu but they were still defeated by it. Danzo also had protection in Sharingan and Yagura had protection in the Sanbi. So you have two actual Kage and two Hokage candidates who have been fucked over by Genjutsu.

Even if a person is able to break Genjutsu, it's still not over, the victim is still at a disadvantage. Kurenai; a Genjutsu specialist, was able to break Itachi's Genjutsu but she was still hard pressed to keep up with Itachi. Sasuke had Genjutsu defence in Sharingan and he was able to see through Shi's Genjutsu but he was at a disadvantage because Ei & Darui were already in position, Sasuke had to be saved by Suigetsu & Jugo. So yeah, I find it pretty hard to believe that all Kage level opponents can instantly discern that they're in a Genjutsu, break out of it and then counter their opponent's attack when Genjutsu specialists and Sharingan users haven't had ease with the aforementioned task.

While I agree with users like Turrin that Genjutsu isn't portrayed to be a deal breaker in the Manga, I believe that different logic applies when we are talking Battledome. Obviously it wouldn't be exciting for Sharingan users to 'Genjutsu GG' any battle they're in, same way it wouldn't be exciting for Jiraiya to 'FCD GG' or for Orochimaru to 'Neurotoxins GG'.


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## Matty (Mar 9, 2016)

Yes I agree


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## ImSerious (Mar 9, 2016)

I acknowledge that genjutsu(the one where your opponent looks into your eyes and is immediately trapped in a dream, while you can harass them in any way you like) is OP and broken.

I also acknowledge that it's the most boring shit in the entire Naruto manga for me.



*Spoiler*: __ 



i'm not salty


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## Itachі (Mar 9, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> I acknowledge that genjutsu(the one where your opponent looks into your eyes and is immediately trapped in a dream, while you can harass them in any way you like) is OP and broken.
> 
> I also acknowledge that it's the most boring shit in the entire Naruto manga for me.
> 
> ...



I don't need to make a thread convincing people of Tsukuyomi's effectiveness, even the most stubborn Minato fans acknowledge its power.


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## ImSerious (Mar 9, 2016)

Itach?– said:


> I don't need to make a thread convincing people of Tsukuyomi's effectiveness, even the most stubborn Minato fans acknowledge its power.


Hey! I said it's OP and broken, but that still doesn't mean it will work on the GOAT


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## Itachі (Mar 9, 2016)

ImSerious said:


> Hey! I said it's OP and broken, but that still doesn't mean it will work on the GOAT



'Why God levels should still fear Tsukuyomi'


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## Sadgoob (Mar 9, 2016)

Finger genjutsu is OP.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

I think Genjutsu in general is pretty broken, not just in Naruto either.


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## Ashi (Mar 10, 2016)

LolGenjutsu is a silly argument


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

LolGenjutsu is a silly argument is a silly argument


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## Ashi (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> LolGenjutsu is a silly argument is a silly argument



Trying to cop out an obvious power gab by saying genjutsu is a stupid argument


If it would've worked that easily any genjutsu user would be much higher on the tier list


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Trying to cop out an obvious power gab by saying genjutsu is a stupid argument
> 
> If it would've worked that easily any genjutsu user would be much higher on the tier list



Except I'm not just saying 'Genjutsu', I've provided evidence of high tier Shinobi getting defeated by Genjutsu.


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## Skaddix (Mar 10, 2016)

The problem is Genjutsu and Genjutsu resistance is hard to rank and sort out in BD...some characters dont even have feats against it so how do you rate them. Not to mention variance between casters just because Madara can do something doesnt mean Sasuke can do something with it

Still you dont need to one shot someone, it gives you a few seconds you need to make your seals, move in to position, coordinate, etc.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> The problem is Genjutsu and Genjutsu resistance is hard to rank and sort out in BD...some characters dont even have feats against it so how do you rate them. Not to mention variance between casters just because Madara can do something doesnt mean Sasuke can do something with it



This it true, I think that all Kage levels should definitely have standard Genjutsu defence but I don't agree with people who think Kage levels brush off Genjutsu without effort.

Madara paralysed Ei so it would have been much more difficult to perform than a standard subtle Genjutsu, yeah. However, most illusionists have shown to be able to create realistic illusions.


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## Skaddix (Mar 10, 2016)

I agree I think what makes Genjutsu especially effective is you cant really preemptively block it. Even if you can break it besides lets stick to visual (avoiding line of sight) you still gotta get hit first, then figure it out and then break it which in high level fights gives someone the few seconds they need to change the course of a batle...what is weird to me is no one does a super subtle one usually u see crazy visions, get tortured or get paralyzed...be interesting to see someone just shift their position a few meters or something. 

I would like to see less Sight Based Genjutsu...some more sound or even smell related ones would be nice.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> I agree I think what makes Genjutsu especially effective is you cant really preemptively block it. Even if you can break it besides lets stick to visual (avoiding line of sight) you still gotta get hit first, then figure it out and then break it which in high level fights gives someone the few seconds they need to change the course of a batle...what is weird to me is no one does a super subtle one usually u see crazy visions, get tortured or get paralyzed...be interesting to see someone just shift their position a few meters or something.
> 
> I would like to see less Sight Based Genjutsu...some more sound or even smell related ones would be nice.



Sasuke used subtle Genjutsu on Danzo, Itachi & Sasuke had a bout with realistic Genjutsu and Itachi's Utakata was subtle at first for Naruto. Naruto only realised that he was in a Genjutsu when Itachi started levitating in the air.

Well, we've had Tayuya's Genjutsu, Gamarinsho & Shi's Lightning Pillar, I believe it was called. Kurenai's Genjutsu too.


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## Skaddix (Mar 10, 2016)

Didnt say we had none just said it be nice to see more.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2016)

I think most everyone agrees that genjutsu in general, more so than ninjutsu or taijutsu, is broken. I think most everyone agrees that even high kage tier ninjas are susceptible to it. Where we disagree with Uchihatards is that genjutsu guarantees a victory. 

Most high tier ninjas have ways to deal with genjutsu, either directly or indirectly. Some are sensors, most can use kage bunshin, others can use summons and a few can simply regenerate. It is not enough to catch a ninja in genjutsu, the follow up attack has to be successful as well.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I think most everyone agrees that genjutsu in general, more so than ninjutsu or taijutsu, is broken. I think most everyone agrees that even high kage tier ninjas are susceptible to it. Where we disagree with Uchihatards is that genjutsu guarantees a victory.
> 
> Most high tier ninjas have ways to deal with genjutsu, either directly or indirectly. Some are sensors, most can use kage bunshin, others can use summons and a few can simply regenerate. It is not enough to catch a ninja in genjutsu, the follow up attack has to be successful as well.



My problem is when people completely write off Genjutsu when there's a battle that involves two high tiers. I agree that there are counters to Genjutsu obviously, but they're not completely foolproof, you know? Genjutsu doesn't guarantee victory (in general) but Genjutsu defence (in general) does not guarantee safety from Genjutsu either.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> My problem is when people completely write off Genjutsu when there's a battle that involves two high tiers. I agree that there are counters to Genjutsu obviously, but they're not completely foolproof, you know? Genjutsu doesn't guarantee victory (in general) but Genjutsu defence (in general) does not guarantee safety from Genjutsu either.



But the same thing can be said about anything. A kunai should not be written off when there's a battle involving two high tiers. Yet if someone said that Tobirama could jam a kunai down Itachi's throat and kill him, you would laugh it off. Goes both ways B.

Genjutsu is not foolproof. I don't believe for a minute that tsukuyomi is either. Most reasonable people recognize that genjutsu can trap anyone but also recognize that many high tiers have some kind of move that could help them out


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> But the same thing can be said about anything. A kunai should not be written off when there's a battle involving two high tiers. Yet if someone said that Tobirama could jam a kunai down Itachi's throat and kill him, you would laugh it off. Goes both ways B.
> 
> Genjutsu is not foolproof. I don't believe for a minute that tsukuyomi is either. Most reasonable people recognize that genjutsu can trap anyone but also recognize that many high tiers have some kind of move that could help them out



What are you talking about? Tobirama could kill Itachi with a Kunai...

I don't disagree.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What are you talking about? Tobirama could kill Itachi with a Kunai...
> 
> I don't disagree.



I did not mean to say that you disagree ... just making the case that it would not be that easy. Itachi is likely to have an answer to a straight kunai blitz but Tobirama can outsmart him of course. Same thing with genjutsu, most high tiers will have an answer but an astute genjutsu user can outsmart them.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I did not mean to say that you disagree ... just making the case that it would not be that easy. Itachi is likely to have an answer to a straight kunai blitz but Tobirama can outsmart him of course. Same thing with genjutsu, most high tiers will have an answer but an astute genjutsu user can outsmart them.



Oh right yeah. However, the nature of subtle Genjutsu means that it's a lot easier, since Genjutsu is deceptive and a Kunai blitz is not. If someone doesn't have explicit knowledge on Genjutsu they could be easily duped, for example someone could have no knowledge on Utakata and get their throat slit, same for a Genjutsu like Gamarinsho. A person may know that their opponent is an Uchiha, but if they go up against Itachi they're likely to heavily underestimate his Genjutsu. Same goes for the Genjutsu user as well, like when Sasuke thought he had successfully paralysed Bee only for him to get blitzed. With full knowledge though, Genjutsu can be answered well.


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## Senjuclan (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Oh right yeah. However, the nature of subtle Genjutsu means that it's a lot easier, since Genjutsu is deceptive and a Kunai blitz is not. If someone doesn't have explicit knowledge on Genjutsu they could be easily duped, for example someone could have no knowledge on Utakata and get their throat slit, same for a Genjutsu like Gamarinsho. A person may know that their opponent is an Uchiha, but if they go up against Itachi they're likely to heavily underestimate his Genjutsu. With full knowledge though, Genjutsu can be answered well.



I generally agree with you but a couple of notes:

1. You are hyping utakata based on its performance against Naruto who was pretty weak at the time. Sure he trained in genjutsu resistance but still he was weak compared to most high tiers. 
2. Most of the techniques I listed originally would counter a subtle genjutsu (sensing, partner with a kuchiyose, using a kage bunshin instead of the real body, Hashirama level regeneration to just take the next attack). So, again even subtle genjutsu is not foolproof

Genjutsu IS dangerous, more dangerous than ninjutsu and taijutsu (the average genjutsu is tactically more advantageous than the average nin or tai jutsu). However, there is a reason why the Uchiha clan even with izanami and izanagi was not the strongest clan. There are ways around genjutsu. As long as you understand that, we are cool


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

Senjuclan said:


> I generally agree with you but a couple of notes:
> 
> 1. You are hyping utakata based on its performance against Naruto who was pretty weak at the time. Sure he trained in genjutsu resistance but still he was weak compared to most high tiers.
> 2. Most of the techniques I listed originally would counter a subtle genjutsu (sensing, partner with a kuchiyose, using a kage bunshin instead of the real body, Hashirama level regeneration to just take the next attack). So, again even subtle genjutsu is not foolproof
> ...



I don't believe that Utakata is very powerful in itself, however I don't believe that it should be written off just because Naruto was its victim. I don't believe that the Genjutsu can do anything crazy but it is a subtle Genjutsu at the beginning, with its realism coupled with its unorthodox application I think it's probably a more dangerous tool than Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu. 3 Tomoe Genjutsu is more useful in general but Utakata could help Itachi defeat opponents if he's in a tight spot by using its surprise factor as an advantage to land a much needed hit.

Yeah, I don't disagree that there are counters to Genjutsu. I just disagree with those who think that all relevant Ninja can shrug off Genjutsu when it's simply not the case, it's ridiculous to say that Genjutsu is 100% foolproof but it's also ridiculous to say that Genjutsu only works on Chunin.


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## Skaddix (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Oh right yeah. However, the nature of subtle Genjutsu means that it's a lot easier, since Genjutsu is deceptive and a Kunai blitz is not. If someone doesn't have explicit knowledge on Genjutsu they could be easily duped, for example someone could have no knowledge on Utakata and get their throat slit, same for a Genjutsu like Gamarinsho. A person may know that their opponent is an Uchiha, but if they go up against Itachi they're likely to heavily underestimate his Genjutsu. Same goes for the Genjutsu user as well, like when Sasuke thought he had successfully paralysed Bee only for him to get blitzed. With full knowledge though, Genjutsu can be answered well.



Good Point you can open yourself up to a counter as Genjutsu.


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## LostSelf (Mar 10, 2016)

Yeah, i don't like how people put it.

"Avoid eye contact". This is not so easy and people acts as if everyone is as skilled as Gai avoiding it just because they are "Kage". High IQ Kakashi couldn't even come up with the tactic of avoiding eye contact. Yet, Onoki/Tsunade/and a huge etc. will. Kabuto with sensing knew perfectly well that avoiding eye contact is not as easy, nor is replicating Gai's method, so he had to cover up his eyes.

This is also being quite unfair to both, someone who fights using genjutsu or someone who made a method to avoid it. It's like saying to that character "I don't care your hyped genjutsu or your so called method that an extremely inteligent shinobi couldn't do easily. My character will avoid it and stomp on your big effort with non-proven methods he/she hasn't shown".

And there are more examples of that. Just "Not looking at his eyes" is something applicable to Gai or high-powerful sensors. Any other won't have it that easy and is just unbased.


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## Itachі (Mar 10, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Yeah, i don't like how people put it.
> 
> "Avoid eye contact". This is not so easy and people acts as if everyone is as skilled as Gai avoiding it just because they are "Kage". High IQ Kakashi couldn't even come up with the tactic of avoiding eye contact. Yet, Onoki/Tsunade/and a huge etc. will. Kabuto with sensing knew perfectly well that avoiding eye contact is not as easy, nor is replicating Gai's method, so he had to cover up his eyes.
> 
> ...



I agree with you but I don't think that Kabuto _had_ to cover his eyes, it was just more beneficial for him to do so than risk getting caught in Tsukuyomi.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 10, 2016)

The thing with genjutsu is at best it serves as a momentary distraction, in essence it serves the same purpose as a shadow clone, to push the opponent off balance and create an opening in their defense.


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## Turrin (Mar 10, 2016)

Itachі said:


> While I agree with users like Turrin that *Genjutsu isn't portrayed to be a deal breaker in the Manga, I believe that different logic applies when we are talking Battledome*. Obviously it wouldn't be exciting for Sharingan users to 'Genjutsu GG' any battle they're in, same way it wouldn't be exciting for Jiraiya to 'FCD GG' or for Orochimaru to 'Neurotoxins GG'.


I'm sorry, but the moment anyone says something like the bold, you stand-point looses all validity. The NBD is about determining who would realistically win a match as defined by the manga, so the moment you say different logic applies, your talking fanfiction and not reality. I mean what is the difference really between your Genjutsu argument, and me saying Itachi should fear Fu, because Mind-Transfer-Puppet-Trap is broken; even though I know for a fact that Itachi would murder Fu in the manga, under any conditions. Again your not arguing who actually is the superior ninja and who would actually win, your arguing who you think should win and author be dammed, which is not the purpose of the NBD, and rather that logic belongs in the KC or OBD.

In the actual manga most Genjutsu has not been that big of a deal. Your examples really don't cut the mustard ether. Orochimaru was not defeated by the binding Genjutsu, all that did was create an opening; an opening Itachi could have used to beat him w/ another technique, but it would be Binding Genjutsu + Totsuka (for example) that was defeating Orochimaru, not just binding Genjutsu. Same-thing for Ei, it wasn't just Genjutsu that defeated Ei, it was Ei fighting 5 Madara clones at once using Susano'o to put him into a position where a slight distraction allowed them to force eye contact w/ Susano'o and than follow up w/ multiple Susano'o attacks after landing the Genjutsu. Yagura we have no clue the circumstances off. And while Itachi did beat Naruto w/ Finger Genjutsu, that was also SPII-Naruto who was far beneath Itachi's level at that point, so not really a relevant example to how two characters of similar level will perform. And against Danzo, Sasuke used Genjutsu and it was easily countered by Danzo, his final illusion only worked because it was changing a very small otherwise inconsequential detail that Danzo overlooked; and it hardly was due to that Genjutsu alone that Sasuke won that battle, so very much more was involved.

And if you look at Genjutsu's overall track record it's not so good. 

Sasuke had high 3T/Mangekyo Genjutsu skill since the time-skip, yet look at his battles:

1) Against Team 7, was irrelevant
2) Against Orochimaru, tried binding, but Orochimaru seemingly overcame it
3) Against Deidara, was countered
4) Against Itachi was countered
5) Against B was countered
6) Against Gokage was irrelevant
7) See above
8) Etc....

Obito had very high Genjutsu mastery too, enough to tame the Kyuubi of all things, yet in all of his battles, Genjutsu was ether irrelevant or he needed to beat down his enemy before getting a chance to use it, I.E. Obito vs Konan.

Same deal w/ Kakashi. Same deal w/ Madara. Etc...

Even in the case of Genjutsu Master Itachi, most characters he actually defeated are due to his higher end Genjutsu, like Totsuka Sword, Tsukuyomi, or Izanami, rather than 3T. In reality his best victory w/ 3T was against Young Deidara who was of unknown strength besides being a talented Jonin.

-----

Again this is just like the Kamui thing. Kakashi has fought a shit ton of enemies in the manga over a wide variety of circumstances, and has never one-shot anyone w/ Kamui. Yet many people will come into every NBD thread no matter the circumstance and argue Kakashi one-shotting w/ Kamui is extremely likely. At a certain point people need to acknowledge that maybe their expectations for a Jutsu are just not correct, and so the same case is true here.

That's not to say Genjutsu isn't an important and useful skill, but there is a big difference between that, and the expectation some people hold of Genjutsu being a likely game ender in every match, when it simply isn't in most cases. Most Genjtusu are more or less comparable in effectiveness toBushin, it can create some openings for bigger Jutsu to land or for the caster to evade being hit by a certain attack, but it's unlikely to win the match for the caster by itself or even in tandem w/ more minor attacks (like Kunai stab) unless the gap between the caster and target is extremely large.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachi would never realistically lose a match if Kishi's the author.


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

@Turrin

I disagree with you on this, we've talked about this quite a lot. I believe that characters can defeat other characters way out of their ballpark if they have the right tools, for example Minato could defeat Madara if the conditions were skewed in his favour. I don't think it's accurate to base a Jutsu's power solely on its track records. Amaterasu has been shat on throughout the Manga but we know that logically many people will still die to it. Kishi wouldn't have Jiraiya one-shot with Gamarinsho and Kishi wouldn't have Kakashi one-shot with Kamui, it can still happen though.

About the Genjutsu not defeating them, obviously most Genjutsu isn't going to kill, my point is exactly what you're saying, it allows for an opening.


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## Zef (Mar 11, 2016)

I never understood why people think genjutsu is thrown to the wayside against upper tier characters.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> @Turrin
> 
> I disagree with you on this, we've talked about this quite a lot. I believe that characters can defeat other characters way out of their ballpark if they have the right tools, for example Minato could defeat Madara if the conditions were skewed in his favour. I don't think it's accurate to base a Jutsu's power solely on its track records. Amaterasu has been shat on throughout the Manga but we know that logically many people will still die to it. Kishi wouldn't have Jiraiya one-shot with Gamarinsho and Kishi wouldn't have Kakashi one-shot with Kamui, it can still happen though.
> 
> About the Genjutsu not defeating them, obviously most Genjutsu isn't going to kill, my point is exactly what you're saying, it allows for an opening.


There is a difference, between saying a Jutsu can win someone a match under certain circumstances and saying it's is likely to happen in nearly every NBD match. 

For example, let me give you a mock match

Kakashi vs Orochimaru
Knowledge: Full for Kakashi, Basic knowledge for Orochimaru and none on Kamui
Starting Distance: 10m
Location: FOD

Now let me give you two examples of response to said mock match

Example A:
Kakashi may be out matched in most other areas by Orochimaru, but considering the knowledge stipulation, he will know this and know he needs to use Kamui. Also considering the location he can use the Forest to fall back and come up w/ a strategy to create an opening to use Kamui on Orochimaru. This may be a difficult fight for Kakashi, but the conditions allow Kakashi a chance at victory here w/ the right utilization of Kamui.

Example B:
Orochimaru has no counter to Kamui, no matter the conditions, because it's faster than KCM-Minato can see, so Kakashi oneshots him w/ Kamui.

------

Example A is the right way to argue this, because it acknowledges that Kamui's track record demonstrates that Kakashi is unlikely to pull off a one-shot w/ it, but use the conditions of this specific match to argue effectively that the possibility exists here, while still acknowledging it will be tough as Kakashi is out matched outside of Kamui. Example B is the wrong way, because it completely ignores track record, and just argues that the Jutsu should perform how Example-B poster believes it should, rather than how it actually does, w/ a bit of clear bias thrown in ontop of it.

Not saying your doing quite the same thing w/ Genjutsu (as far as bias goes), just saying that your walking a narrow line.


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

Well, here's where I don't agree with you. Kamui is actually too fast for Orochimaru to do anything about it, if Orochimaru had knowledge he could just surround himself with snakes every time he is anticipating a Kamui but with no knowledge on Kamui he's going to be defenceless when it starts. Characters like Minato can handily counter Kamui without knowledge but Orochimaru's not included. He has no way of escaping once Kakashi starts the warping process. If Orochimaru could counter Kamui without knowledge I'd agree with you, however he doesn't have a Jutsu like Hiraishin. Early Part 2 Kakashi's Kamui can be avoided without that much difficulty but War Arc Kakashi's going to give everyone a much harder time. Though I don't agree with Example B either, conditions matter of course, I just think that Kakashi will easily defeat Orochimaru in the conditions you have described. He's not winning in all conditions though, obviously.

My point with this thread is that Genjutsu can be a significant factor in a match-up, that's all. I'm not saying that it one-shots everyone, I'm just saying that people shouldn't treat it as something that every Genin and their mother can instantly counter. I feel like people give too much benefit of the doubt, for example, saying that Tsunade could figure out that she's in a Genjutsu and breaking it within a second, before her opponent gets to do anything. I just find that there are a lot of double standards when it comes to Genjutsu and people treat it like its a worthless tool to have when it can in fact turn the tide of a battle. Just like any tool used well.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, here's where I don't agree with you. Kamui is actually too fast for Orochimaru to do anything about it, if Orochimaru had knowledge he could just surround himself with snakes every time he is anticipating a Kamui but with no knowledge on Kamui he's going to be defenceless when it starts. Characters like Minato can handily counter Kamui without knowledge but Orochimaru's not included. He has no way of escaping once Kakashi starts the warping process. If Orochimaru could counter Kamui without knowledge I'd agree with you, however he doesn't have a Jutsu like Hiraishin. Early Part 2 Kakashi's Kamui can be avoided without that much difficulty but War Arc Kakashi's going to give everyone a much harder time.


1) I think your overrating Kamui's speed. Sakura reacted to it, and that was a Kamui used a point blank range. We also saw Madara's Gododama prempt it and the Gododama weren't that fast; Kakashi was able to throw a Hiraishin Kunai at around the same speed as them. So I think Orochimaru especially w/ his hand-seal speed being maxed out, can respond w/ a Jutsu to defend himself as long as he realizes the Kamui warp is happening pretty quickly (or at the very least use Oral Rebirth to escape) or is at a far distance away from Kakashi.

2) In a no knowledge scenario Kakashi isn't likely to pull out Kamui until it's too late anyway. The guy is hesitant to use Kamui for obvious reasons, while Orochimaru has plenty of techniques that can kill Kakashi that he is not hesitant to use. 

Now granted if Kakashi say pulls a feint and starts to initiate Kamui, while Orochimaru is distracted by his clone, than by the time Orochimaru realizes Kamui is happening it may be too late, so Kakashi could pull off Kamui in a no knowledge scenario, but to me that's K, so what. In a no knowledge scenario most of the time both fighters have a myriad of ways they can defeat the other, because going in blind is vary dangerous in the Naruto world. For example Orochimaru could kill Kakashi numerous ways in a no knowledge scenario, Oral-Rebirth feint, Ksunagi sword, Yamata no Orochi, WSM Poison, etc...The fact that Kakashi has just one plausible means w/ Kamui doesn't mean much, actually it means the opposite that Kakashi is quite inferior to Orochimaru as he only has one option, while Orochimaru has a whole plethora of options.



> My point with this thread is that Genjutsu can be a significant factor in a match-up, that's all. I'm not saying that it one-shots everyone, I'm just saying that people shouldn't treat it as something that every Genin and their mother can instantly counter. I feel like people give too much benefit of the doubt, for example, saying that Tsunade could figure out that she's in a Genjutsu and breaking it within a second, before her opponent gets to do anything. I just find that there are a lot of double standards when it comes to Genjutsu and people treat it like its a worthless tool to have when it can in fact turn the tide of a battle. Just like any tool used well.


I agree w/ this, just saying the part about ignoring track record and all that is something I do not agree with.


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## Nikushimi (Mar 11, 2016)

Anyone who doesn't have a good Genjutsu defense or natural resistance is going to succumb to a skilled Genjutsu user, just like anybody bad at Taijutsu would get wrecked by Gai in that arena.

It's got nothing to do with levels; someone like Orochimaru or Kurenai (experts in the field; both have a 5, a perfect score, in Genjutsu) can fall prey just as easily as a novice Deidara if they encounter someone better. Anyone not trained to deal with it at all isn't going to be able to just shrug it off by virtue of their proficiency in other areas, and trying to avoid it by not making eye contact is going to compromise a shinobi's ability to read attacks and perform in the field.

Look at the Kyuubi. Incredible power, but zero Genjutsu defense or aptitude, and the damn thing is a sock puppet for the Uchiha.


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

Turrin said:


> 1) I think your overrating Kamui's speed. Sakura reacted to it, and that was a Kamui used a point blank range. We also saw Madara's Gododama prempt it and the Gododama weren't that fast; Kakashi was able to throw a Hiraishin Kunai at around the same speed as them. So I think Orochimaru especially w/ his hand-seal speed being maxed out, can respond w/ a Jutsu to defend himself as long as he realizes the Kamui warp is happening pretty quickly (or at the very least use Oral Rebirth to escape) or is at a far distance away from Kakashi.
> 
> 2) In a no knowledge scenario Kakashi isn't likely to pull out Kamui until it's too late anyway. The guy is hesitant to use Kamui for obvious reasons, while Orochimaru has plenty of techniques that can kill Kakashi that he is not hesitant to use.
> 
> Now granted if Kakashi say pulls a feint and starts to initiate Kamui, while Orochimaru is distracted by his clone, than by the time Orochimaru realizes Kamui is happening it may be too late, so Kakashi could pull off Kamui in a no knowledge scenario, but to me that's K, so what. In a no knowledge scenario most of the time both fighters have a myriad of ways they can defeat the other, because going in blind is vary dangerous in the Naruto world. For example Orochimaru could kill Kakashi numerous ways in a no knowledge scenario, Oral-Rebirth feint, Ksunagi sword, Yamata no Orochi, WSM Poison, etc...The fact that Kakashi has just one plausible means w/ Kamui doesn't mean much, actually it means the opposite that Kakashi is quite inferior to Orochimaru as he only has one option, while Orochimaru has a whole plethora of options.



1. Shinobi can react to Kamui, doesn't mean that they can mount a defence against it. Deidara still got his arm warped by Kakashi's shoddy Kamui and he was on a bird. Sakura can react to Kamui yes, but she can't do shit against it. Orochimaru has the best tools to defend against Kamui warp out of the Sannin imo because he can literally just summon a hell of a lot of snakes at his whim. It's like how Hebi Sasuke defended himself with snakes in the Itachi fight and the Deidara fight, though Orochimaru can use his quicker variant in Shadow Snake Hands. 

2. I agree with this, Kakashi is probably going to lose. He will attempt a Kunai slash or Raikiri stab, when that doesn't work he will probably try bisection/beheading, when that doesn't work he'll probably be killed by an Orochimaru playing possum or poison.

Yeah, that's not the point though. Like, I think Kakashi could defeat Tobirama with the knowledge lop-sided but I don't consider Kakashi to be stronger than Tobirama.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Naruto who was trained to break Genjutsu couldn't break out of Itachi's Utakata. Now, even if one can break out of conventional Genjutsu, that's not to say that it's the end. Naruto was skilled enough to force Itachi's hand, when Naruto attempted to break out of Utakata Itachi was able to strengthen his Genjutsu. To me, this suggests that for someone to break out of Utakata alone they must be more skilled at breaking Genjutsu than Itachi is at maintaining Genjutsu. Naruto was not a very powerful Shinobi but he had trained in resisting Genjutsu and he still fell to it. Yeah, nobody's probably going to take that example seriously but wait, I have more.




I don't see why it shouldn't be taken seriously. Itachi's Finger Genjutsu was never actually broken. In fact, Chiyo and Sakura had to save him. That doesn't suggest that that particular genjutsu is easy to resist. Quite the opposite, in fact.




> Sasuke had Genjutsu defence in Sharingan and he was able to see through Shi's Genjutsu but he was at a disadvantage because Ei & Darui were already in position, Sasuke had to be saved by Suigetsu & Jugo.




Just a nitpick, but Sasuke didn't need his teammates to save him.



The fact that Sasuke had acquired Susano'o at that point is reason to take his word at face value.



> While I agree with users like Turrin that *Genjutsu isn't portrayed to be a deal breaker in the Manga*, I believe that different logic applies when we are talking Battledome. Obviously it wouldn't be exciting for Sharingan users to 'Genjutsu GG' any battle they're in, same way it wouldn't be exciting for Jiraiya to 'FCD GG' or for Orochimaru to 'Neurotoxins GG'.




Define "deal breaker." If by deal breaker you mean potent enough to take someone out, then It depends on whose genjutsu you're referring to. Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu has indeed been portrayed to be Game Over in the manga. Sasuke and Kakashi have weaker Genjutsu, so they aren't going to be able to knock out Kage-level ninja with Sharingan Genjutsu in the same way that Itachi would be able to. Kakashi is never replicating Itachi's Kasegui feat against Orochimaru, for example, even with a free shot of Sharingan Genjutsu.​


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> I don't see why it shouldn't be taken seriously. Itachi's Finger Genjutsu was never actually broken. In fact, Chiyo and Sakura had to save him. That doesn't suggest that that particular genjutsu is easy to resist. Quite the opposite, in fact.​




Yeah, I'm just saying that some people downplay it because it was Naruto, though I don't agree with such logic.



> Just a nitpick, but Sasuke didn't need his teammates to save him.
> 
> 
> 
> The fact that Sasuke had acquired Susano'o at that point is reason to take his word at face value.



True, but if a ranged attack was used or Ei used V2 Sasuke wouldn't have dealt with it in ease. Main point is that even if a Genjutsu is broken, crucial time is still wasted.



> Define "deal breaker." If by deal breaker you mean potent enough to take someone out, then It depends on whose genjutsu you're referring to. Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu has indeed been portrayed to be Game Over in the manga. Sasuke and Kakashi have weaker Genjutsu, so they aren't going to be able to knock out Kage-level ninja with Sharingan Genjutsu in the same way that Itachi would be able to. Kakashi is never replicating Itachi's Kasegui feat against Orochimaru, for example, even with a free shot of Sharingan Genjutsu.



Genjutsu can win a battle for a Shinobi but it's not been portrayed as something that means game over if the opponent hasn't got a named Genjutsu defence method. Like, Sage Mode has been portrayed to be very powerful but it's not something that an opponent without such boosts is helpless against.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yeah, I'm just saying that some people downplay it because it was Naruto, though I don't agree with such logic.




I think it's just that people are perturbed by the thought of Itachi defeating Kage-level ninja with his finger. 




> True, but if a ranged attack was used or Ei used V2 Sasuke wouldn't have dealt with it in ease. Main point is that even if a Genjutsu is broken, crucial time is still wasted.




Sasuke was tracking A and Darui, and nothing in Darui's arsenal can put a chink in Sasuke's Susano'o. But yeah, I agree with the point you were getting across.




> Genjutsu can win a battle for a Shinobi but it's not been portrayed as something that means game over if the opponent hasn't got a named Genjutsu defence method. Like, Sage Mode has been portrayed to be very powerful but it's not something that an opponent without such boosts is helpless against.




Sage Mode is not an attack. Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is an attack that affects the opponent. It's certainly something that can result in his opponent's defeat. If Itachi was somehow able to hold down and lock eyes with A, he would be able to knock him out the same way that Madara was able to. A would be just as helpless as Orochimaru. Ohnoki, Mei, Gaara, Jiraiya, Muu, Gengetsu, Hiruzen, Rasa... There's an entire list of Kage-level ninja that Itachi can dispatch with Sharingan Genjutsu.​


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> Sage Mode is not an attack. Itachi's Sharingan Genjutsu is an attack that affects the opponent. It's certainly something that can result in his opponent's defeat. If Itachi was somehow able to hold down and lock eyes with A, he would be able to knock him out the same way that Madara was able to. A would be just as helpless as Orochimaru. Ohnoki, Mei, Gaara, Jiraiya, Muu, Gengetsu, Hiruzen, Rasa... There's an entire list of Kage-level ninja that Itachi can dispatch with Sharingan Genjutsu.



I agree with you, but it's not something that guarantees a victory. Itachi is extremely proficient in Genjutsu yet he would still have a difficult time catching some Shinobi in Genjutsu, Genjutsu is very powerful when it connects but a Shinobi being a proficient Genjutsu user doesn't mean that they can always defeat other Shinobi around their level, or that they can even catch them in Genjutsu in the first place.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Itach?– said:


> I agree with you, but it's not something that guarantees a victory. Itachi is extremely proficient in Genjutsu yet he would still have a difficult time catching some Shinobi in Genjutsu, Genjutsu is very powerful when it connects but a Shinobi being a proficient Genjutsu user doesn't mean that they can always defeat other Shinobi around their level, or that they can even catch them in Genjutsu in the first place.




I agree that Genjutsu is difficult to connect against a Kage-level opponent, but so is Rasengan in that sense. Ohnoki has Iwa Bunshin and experience fighting Sharingan Genjutsu to lower the chances of Itachi's genjutsu landing. Mei has Hidden Mist to obscure Itachi's vision. Gaara has Suna Bunshin to lower the chances of being ensnared by genjutsu. Jiraiya has Kage Bunshin, smoke clouds, and partners that can be summoned to counter or break genjutsu. Muu doesn't have any counters, but he is squirrelly due to invisibility (unless you think the Sharingan can see through that jutsu). Gengetsu doesn't have any notable counters. Hiruzen has Kage Bunshin to reduce the chances of being ensnared. Rasa is Rasa.

My point is that Itachi's more powerful Sharingan Genjutsu cannot be broken by *any* Kage-level ninja unless they have some sort of explicit resistance like the Sharingan or a partner to break them out of it, which is huge, because it means that Itachi can defeat Kage-level ninja with mere three-tomoe Sharingan. This is compounded by the fact that Itachi is faster than almost all Kage-level ninja, so he can force eye contact (as he did against Kakashi) in the same way that say Hiraishinless Minato can speed at someone and take them out with Rasengan.

This is why I feel that Itachi's genjutsu specifically is underrated, and it shouldn't be compared to other charaters' genjutsu. It's like comparing Rasengan to an average punch in terms of potency. 

Other characters can create distractions with genjutsu, but Itachi's genjutsu ends matches.​


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

Saru said:


> I agree that Genjutsu is difficult to connect against a Kage-level opponent, but so is Rasengan in that sense. Ohnoki has Iwa Bunshin and experience fighting Sharingan Genjutsu to lower the chances of Itachi's genjutsu landing. Mei has Hidden Mist to obscure Itachi's vision. Gaara has Suna Bunshin to lower the chances of being ensnared by genjutsu. Jiraiya has Kage Bunshin, smoke clouds, and partners that can be summoned to counter or break genjutsu. Muu doesn't have any counters, but he is squirrelly due to invisibility (unless you think the Sharingan can see through that jutsu). Gengetsu doesn't have any notable counters. Hiruzen has Kage Bunshin to reduce the chances of being ensnared. Rasa is Rasa.
> 
> My point is that Itachi's more powerful Sharingan Genjutsu cannot be broken by *any* Kage-level ninja unless they have some sort of explicit resistance like the Sharingan or a partner to break them out of it, which is huge, because it means that Itachi can defeat Kage-level ninja with mere three-tomoe Sharingan. This is compounded by the fact that Itachi is faster than almost all Kage-level ninja, so he can force eye contact (as he did against Kakashi) in the same way that say Hiraishinless Minato can speed at someone and take them out with Rasengan.​



Yeah, but what I said about Genjutsu 'not being a deal breaker' is that a Shinobi simply having powerful Genjutsu in their arsenal is not enough to net them the win against opponents around their level. I acknowledge that once Itachi has you in a Genjutsu, you're probably done for.

Kage levels should be able to break Itachi's paralysis Genjutsu but subtle Genjutsu is the real issue for Itachi's opponents, Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu can be broken out of but it's irrelevant if the opponent doesn't know that they're in a Genjutsu in the first place. Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu hasn't been hyped as 'unbreakable' like Tsukuyomi, so I see no reason to see it in such a way. Though I don't think it's going to be easy, Orochimaru was struggling to Kai out of Itachi's paralysis Genjutsu.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Itach?– said:


> Yeah, but what I said about Genjutsu 'not being a deal breaker' is that a Shinobi simply having powerful Genjutsu in their arsenal is not enough to net them the win against opponents around their level. I acknowledge that once Itachi has you in a Genjutsu, you're probably done for.




Yeah, I agree with you.



> Kage levels should be able to break Itachi's paralysis Genjutsu but subtle Genjutsu is the real issue for Itachi's opponents, Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu can be broken out of but it's irrelevant if the opponent doesn't know that they're in a Genjutsu in the first place. Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu hasn't been hyped as 'unbreakable' like Tsukuyomi, so I see no reason to see it in such a way. Though I don't think it's going to be easy, Orochimaru was struggling to Kai out of Itachi's paralysis Genjutsu.




And based on what should Kage be able to break Itachi's Kasegui genjutsu? They're not going to be able to break out before Itachi attacks them, and none of those Kage I mentioned bar A and perhaps Gaara (due to durability and automatic sand defense, respectively) are going to survive Itachi's attack. Orochimaru was unable to do anything to Itachi once he was ensnared by his genjutsu. People breaking out of Itachi's genjutsu before they can be attacked has absolutely no basis. Quite the opposite, in fact.

Tsukuyomi is overkill to defeat a Kage-level ninja without special genjutsu resistance (as in after being successfully ensnared) in the same way that Senpou: Chou Oodama Rasengan is overkill to defeat a Kage-level ninja without special durability.​


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## Itachі (Mar 11, 2016)

I'm not saying that they will break it before Itachi kills them, I'm saying that Kage level Shinobi should be able to break Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu if they find out that they're in it.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not saying that they will break it before Itachi kills them, I'm saying that Kage level Shinobi should be able to break Itachi's 3 Tomoe Genjutsu if they find out that they're in it.




I disagree. Not only can Itachi attack someone he's placed in genjutsu before they can do anything, he can increase the strength of the genjutsu or add more layers of genjutsu. I see the subtlety of Itachi's genjutsu emphasized in the NBD, but his overt Sharingan Genjutsu is powerful enough to subdue almost any Kage-level ninja. Subtle genjutsu was used against Killer B because Killer B has genjutsu resistance and it was appropriate to do so. By no means is subtle genjutsu the best option against all Kage-level ninja. I have no idea where that conception came from.

Why would Itachi use a subtle genjutsu on his opponent when he could bring them to their knees with something like Kasegui? He wouldn't.​


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## Sapherosth (Mar 11, 2016)

They can 'try' to avoid it.....but they'll be caught eventually.  It's hypocritical to say that a genjutsu user would not have a way to counter the enemy's genjutsu counter, especially someone who specialises in Genjutsu.


We've already seen it happen with the crows/bunshins method to force a genjutsu and the finger method. It's a shame we didn't see more, but it just shows that there are other ways catch someone in a genjutsu  than there ways to avoid them.


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## Big Mom (Mar 11, 2016)

Actually, you are wrong in the regards to Danzo. First of all, Danzo didn't have Sharingan defense in that situation, so he couldn't use his Sharingan to break the genjutsu. If you recall, he has his Sharingan covered up as it was recharging in order to use Koto once again, which meant that his eye wasn't useable. Furthermore, it was stated that the Sharingans on his arm only serve as fodder for Izanagi, he can't actually see out of them. So couple his blind/useless eyes on his arm, and a recharging and covered Sharingan, Danzo didn't have the Sharingan to break out of it. 

You also are forgetting that Danzo broke through Sasuke's Tsukiyomi.


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## Saru (Mar 11, 2016)

Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 11, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Anyone who doesn't have a good Genjutsu defense or natural resistance is going to succumb to a skilled Genjutsu user, just like anybody bad at Taijutsu would get wrecked by Gai in that arena.
> 
> It's got nothing to do with levels; someone like Orochimaru or Kurenai (experts in the field; both have a 5, a perfect score, in Genjutsu) can fall prey just as easily as a novice Deidara if they encounter someone better. Anyone not trained to deal with it at all isn't going to be able to just shrug it off by virtue of their proficiency in other areas, and trying to avoid it by not making eye contact is going to compromise a shinobi's ability to read attacks and perform in the field.
> 
> Look at the Kyuubi. Incredible power, but zero Genjutsu defense or aptitude, and the damn thing is a sock puppet for the Uchiha.


All true, great post.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2016)

Itachі said:


> 1. Shinobi can react to Kamui, doesn't mean that they can mount a defence against it. Deidara still got his arm warped by Kakashi's shoddy Kamui and he was on a bird. Sakura can react to Kamui yes, but she can't do shit against it. Orochimaru has the best tools to defend against Kamui warp out of the Sannin imo because he can literally just summon a hell of a lot of snakes at his whim. It's like how Hebi Sasuke defended himself with snakes in the Itachi fight and the Deidara fight, though Orochimaru can use his quicker variant in Shadow Snake Hands.


The defense is blocking LOS or using a feint, which all three Sannin have Jutsu to accomplish.



> Yeah, that's not the point though. Like, I think Kakashi could defeat Tobirama with the knowledge lop-sided but I don't consider Kakashi to be stronger than Tobirama.


Don't really see how Kakashi beats Tobirama under any conditions.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 12, 2016)

Genjutsu is a quite effective way to cheaply hype villains. Even by making them own that way powerful good guys.

Since genjutsu usually does not kill(aside from potentially Itachi's Tsukuyomi) therefore its effectiveness can be shown without destroying good guys plot shields.

Other than that it is good as a plot device. Like making Naruto and Jiraiya look for Tsunade to wake up Sasuke and Itachi, to make Itachi free himself from Kabuto's ET control or MT putting all -aside from the main villains and main heroes- out of the equation.

But fights with it are boring yeah,


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## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Actually, you are wrong in the regards to Danzo. First of all, Danzo didn't have Sharingan defense in that situation, so he couldn't use his Sharingan to break the genjutsu. If you recall, he has his Sharingan covered up as it was recharging in order to use Koto once again, which meant that his eye wasn't useable. Furthermore, it was stated that the Sharingans on his arm only serve as fodder for Izanagi, he can't actually see out of them. So couple his blind/useless eyes on his arm, and a recharging and covered Sharingan, Danzo didn't have the Sharingan to break out of it.
> 
> You also are forgetting that Danzo broke through Sasuke's Tsukiyomi.



He had his Sharingan activated though, I imagine that it can still be used for defence even if it can't see out of the bandages. I wasn't talking about the Sharingan on his arm either.

Danzo never broke Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, Sasuke doesn't even have Tsukuyomi.



Turrin said:


> The defense is blocking LOS or using a feint, which all three Sannin have Jutsu to accomplish.
> 
> 
> Don't really see how Kakashi beats Tobirama under any conditions.



Kakashi's much better at feinting than Jiraiya/Orochimaru and only Orochimaru can consistently defend himself against Kamui. Jiraiya has to constantly sacrifice toads or get into Sage Mode, Tsunade can only defend against Kamui by summoning Katsuyu in front of her or by hiding in Katsuyu.

Kakashi could beat Tobirama by Raiton Bunshin Feint + Kamui Combo.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Dude, if you are a shinobi and if you want to survive @ a higher level, you need to be able to deal with genjutsu, thats no brainer. 

Just like in the UFC, if you are a striker and if you want to survive, you have to have some kind of a takedown defense, you have to know what you have to do on the ground etc. But that doesn't mean you'll never be taken down. 

I think it is logical to assume  that most high level shinobi know how to deal with genjutsu, but then not all genjutsu users are the same. Being able to deal with genjutsu doesn't mean you can deal with the highest level genjutsu out there. 
We've seen genjutsu play a big factor in high level fights against guys who supposedly have good understanding and proficiency of genjutsu, like Sasuke vs Danzo for example. 

A kage level wouldn't worry about genjutsu, as they wouldn't worry about ninjutsu or taijutsu but eventually there will be certain moves that will slip past their guard and KO them.


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## Itachі (Mar 12, 2016)

I agree, I think because of the deceptive nature of Genjutsu it's important for Shinobi to have good Genjutsu defence. However, I don't think all characters would really have good Genjutsu defence. For example, Ei is fast enough to avoid eye contact against many opponents so he's less in need of it compared to someone like Tsunade or Onoki. It's like how most Kage should have upped their essentials to a good extent, except someone like Gaara doesn't need to train in Taijutsu because he's not likely to engage in it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 12, 2016)

Thats the thing, most Kage should have a defense against conventional genjutsu, but not every genjutsu is conventional. An unorthodox genjutsu user like Itachi should be definitely left outside the norm. Being able to defend against genjutsu doesn't translate into defending against Itachi's genjutsu. 
That is a common mistake people make in BD.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kakashi's much better at feinting than Jiraiya/Orochimaru and only Orochimaru can consistently defend himself against Kamui. Jiraiya has to constantly sacrifice toads or get into Sage Mode, Tsunade can only defend against Kamui by summoning Katsuyu in front of her or by hiding in Katsuyu.
> .


Kakashi being better at feinting, which I'm not sure is even true, doesn't have any baring on the Sannin's ability to cast KB to use a feint once they see a Jutsu like Kamui coming. And Jiriaya really doesn't have to sacrifice a toad, he can just summon Gammaken whose giant shield would block LOS, thus forcing Kakashi to stop Kamui or waste it on Ken's Shield. And Tsunade can consistently defend it w/ pieces of Katsuya of which she can summon a-lot considering Boss Sized Katsuya is really made up off like 1k smaller body sized Katsuya, and Boss Sized Katsuya is only a mere piece of the main Katsuya.



> Kakashi could beat Tobirama by Raiton Bunshin Feint + Kamui Combo.


RKB would only stop Tobirama's movements, it wouldn't stop him from using Hiraishin to escape Kamui. Hiraishin users are like really bad match ups for Kamui users, as seen in Obito vs Minato.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> RKB would only stop Tobirama's movements, it wouldn't stop him from using Hiraishin to escape Kamui. Hiraishin users are like really bad match ups for Kamui users, as seen in Obito vs Minato.



I don't know about that, RKB would be a solid temporary paralysis that didn't allow any chakra transmission whatsoever for Asura, I don't see why Hiraishin users would be given a pass, they would need chakra to jump.

Obito vs. Minato is a poor example because he's not a skilled a fighter like Kakashi. He's got an automatic exceptionally high level defense, I mean when used properly he was trumping BSM Naruto.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't know about that, RKB would be a solid temporary paralysis that didn't allow any chakra transmission whatsoever for Asura, I don't see why Hiraishin users would be given a pass, they would need chakra to jump.


Where was it ever stated that RKB stopped chakra transmission for Ashura.



> Obito vs. Minato is a poor example because he's not a skilled a fighter like Kakashi. He's got an automatic exceptionally high level defense, I mean when used properly he was trumping BSM Naruto.


Obito is more skilled w/ Kamui than Kakashi and can use if far more freely.


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## Saru (Mar 12, 2016)

Gamaken's shield is not a Kamui counter.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Where was it ever stated that RKB stopped chakra transmission for Ashura.


Common sense really, Deva Path was able to move away but Asura was still stuck there immediately after the RKB attack.



Turrin said:


> Obito is more skilled w/ Kamui than Kakashi and can use if far more freely.



Obito has a different version of the technique which he was skilled with but after reading the databook entry, his intangibility was more a subconscious activity, he really did nothing other than activate his MS. Kakashi was much more a skilled shinobi who would have adapted to his opponent better than Obito could. Obito was far to unskilled and unrefined, kind of like the difference between Sasuke and Naruto.


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## Skaddix (Mar 12, 2016)

Because he was paralyzed and couldnt move whereas Hirashin requires thought so as long as Tobiramas conscious he should be able to move. .


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## Big Mom (Mar 12, 2016)

Itachі said:


> He had his Sharingan activated though, I imagine that it can still be used for defence even if it can't see out of the bandages. I wasn't talking about the Sharingan on his arm either.
> 
> Danzo never broke Sasuke's Tsukuyomi, Sasuke doesn't even have Tsukuyomi.



We have nothing to indicate that he could still use his Sharingan. It was recharging and was covered, which as we have seen with Kakashi, covering it is useful with reducing the amount of usage of said Sharingan. So no, we have nothing indicating he could still use it.

And yes, my apologies. But he still broke through a genjutsu from Sasuke. He is a genjutsu master, I don't know why you are downplaying Danzo.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 12, 2016)

Skaddix said:


> Because he was paralyzed and couldnt move whereas Hirashin requires thought so as long as Tobiramas conscious he should be able to move. .



So Hiraishin doesn't require any chakra? Just thinking right?


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Common sense really, Deva Path was able to move away but Asura was still stuck there immediately after the RKB attack.
> .


Which means his body was paralyzed. Says zilch about chakra.



> Obito has a different version of the technique which he was skilled with but after reading the databook entry, his intangibility was more a subconscious activity, he really did nothing other than activate his MS. Kakashi was much more a skilled shinobi who would have adapted to his opponent better than Obito could. Obito was far to unskilled and unrefined, kind of like the difference between Sasuke and Naruto


The phasing was said to be subconscious, Obito was highly skilled in regular warping and teleportation w/ Kamui as well, and has much better feats than Kakashi, who only learned to warp himself in and out of Kamui land towards the very end of the War-Arc, while Obito was warping himself, others, and dozens of objects in and out of Kamui-Land w/ absolute skill and accuracy, over huge distances. Whether this is due to skill or Obito being a true blood Uchiha and having Hashirama's DNA, at the end of the day Obito's capabilities w/ Kamui, even phasing aside vastly excelled Kakashi's; and his Kamui was countered by a Hiraishin user multiple times. 

So I do not agree whatsoever.



Saru said:


> Gamaken's shield is not a Kamui counter.


Yes it is


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Which means his body was paralyzed. Says zilch about chakra.


Umm, Asura was moving around through and through while taking hits, in fact even after being carved in half Nagato made it a point to move him. Why wouldn't he move him then? 



Turrin said:


> The phasing was said to be subconscious, Obito was highly skilled in regular warping and teleportation w/ Kamui as well, and has much better feats than Kakashi, who only learned to warp himself in and out of Kamui land towards the very end of the War-Arc, while Obito was warping himself, others, and dozens of objects in and out of Kamui-Land w/ absolute skill and accuracy, over huge distances. Whether this is due to skill or Obito being a true blood Uchiha and having Hashirama's DNA, at the end of the day Obito's capabilities w/ Kamui, even phasing aside vastly excelled Kakashi's; and his Kamui was countered by a Hiraishin user multiple times.


Yeah but you can't compare Kakashi's Kamui to Obito's Kamui, because Obito had a different version of the technique. I mean, if Kakashi was able to use intangibility with his technique, given his intellect he'd automatically be above Obito. The point I was trying to make is that Obito's Kamui gave him the luxury (nigh untouchable defense) to be careless whereas despite having learned Kamui, Kakashi was still just as skillful.


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## Saru (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes it is




If Kakashi used Kamui on Jiraiya's head at mid or short range, Jiraiya would not be able to form hand seals in time to summon Gamaken. Kamui's activation time is faster than Kage-level ninja can form three hand seals as per cannon. If Gamaken was already summoned and tried to "block Kakashi's LOS," Kakashi would warp Gamaken's shield and half of his entire body along with it.



Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> We have nothing to indicate that he could still use his Sharingan. It was recharging and was covered, which as we have seen with Kakashi, covering it is useful with reducing the amount of usage of said Sharingan. So no, we have nothing indicating he could still use it.
> 
> And yes, my apologies. But he still broke through a genjutsu from Sasuke. He is a genjutsu master, I don't know why you are downplaying Danzo.




I don't think that Itachi was trying to downplay Danzo but rather show that characters inferior to Danzo in genjutsu resistance should be just as susceptible to Sasuke's brief genjutsu.​


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Umm, Asura was moving around through and through while taking hits, in fact even after being carved in half Nagato made it a point to move him. Why wouldn't he move him then?


Asura could still move around w/ heavy damage because he was part cyborg. RKB however paralyzed his entire body and likely machinery preventing him from moving. However at no point was there ever any mention of it paralyzing his chakra or any Raiton in the manga being capable of that, for that matter. So Don't expect me to just accept some fanfiction ability you've given Kakashi as real.



> Yeah but you can't compare Kakashi's Kamui to Obito's Kamui, because Obito had a different version of the technique. I mean, if Kakashi was able to use intangibility with his technique, given his intellect he'd automatically be above Obito. The point I was trying to make is that Obito's Kamui gave him the luxury (nigh untouchable defense) to be careless whereas despite having learned Kamui, Kakashi was still just as skillful.


For the third time I wasn't comparing their intangibility, I was comparing Obito's ability to warp himself, others, and objects to Kakashi's. 

And the point I'm trying to make isn't about whose more skillful, it's about if Hiraishin was able to counter Kamui twice in the hands of the vasty superior Kamui users (Obito), than it's not going to be very effective in the hands of Kakashi.



Saru said:


> f Kakashi used Kamui on Jiraiya's head at mid or short range, Jiraiya would not be able to form hand seals in time to summon Gamaken.​



Yes he would. Literally nothing places Kamui as faster than someone who can form seals extremely quickly like Jiraiya can form a single seal.

Again Gododama prempted Kamui and it's speed was directly compared to how FTG Kunai tossed by Kakashi. Gaara's Sand Wall also prempted Kamui. And even Sakura reacted to it long before being warped away. 



> Kamui's activation time is faster than Kage-level ninja can form three hand seals as per cannon


Based on what...



> Kakashi would warp Gamaken's shield and half of his entire body along with it.


Gammaken's shield is enormous, Kakashi doesn't have any feats that suggest he could warp away something that large and Ken as well. Though assuming he could warp away the shield, which is a pretty beneficial assumption and assuming he was aggressive enough w/ his Kamui usage to waste such a huge Kamui on warping away the shield (which I don't think is IC or smart), Jiraiya will have still countered Kamui.​


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## Saru (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Yes he would. Literally nothing places Kamui as faster than someone who can form seals extremely quickly like Jiraiya can form a single seal.
> 
> Again Gododama prempted Kamui and it's speed was directly compared to how FTG Kunai tossed by Kakashi. Gaara's Sand Wall also prempted Kamui. And even Sakura reacted to it long before being warped away.




Sakura didn't "react" to anything. She "reacted" to the S/T barrier of Kamui spawning around her in the same way that Danzo "reacted" to Sasuke's Amaterasu when the black flames spawned on his body--too slowly to do anything about it. 




> Based on what...





*Spoiler*: __ 










Kamui's activation speed *>* hand seal speed. Refute that.




> Gammaken's shield is enormous, Kakashi doesn't have any feats that suggest he could warp away something that large and Ken as well. Though assuming he could warp away the shield, which is a pretty beneficial assumption and assuming he was aggressive enough w/ his Kamui usage to waste such a huge Kamui on warping away the shield (which I don't think is IC or smart), Jiraiya will have still countered Kamui.





*Spoiler*: __ 








You must have a grudge against Gamaken.

Once Gamaken is taken out, Jiraiya will not summon any more toads to use as meatshields, because he loves those toads more than you seem to.​


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> Sakura didn't "react" to anything. She "reacted" to the S/T barrier of Kamui spawning around her in the same way that Danzo "reacted" to Sasuke's Amaterasu when the black flames spawned on his body--too slowly to do anything about it. ​



The difference being that when the Amaterasu flames have spawned on you, the Jutsu has already accomplished it's end goal. On the other hand when a Kamui warp forms around someone, that's not the end of the Jutsu, the wormhole still needs to be controlled by the user to suck the target into box-land. So if someone reacts to the distortion in space the moment it starts, they can still do something about the Jutsu; we saw that w/ Deidara. 
"reacted"
"reacted"



> Kamui's activation speed > hand seal speed. Refute that.


It's extremely easy to refute.

1) Danzo's Seal speed isn't representative of everyones and Danzo had to form not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 seals to activate Izanagi

2) Danzo says no time for seals, when Susano'o arrow had already been fired and was already extremely close to him as well as him being in a compromised position from his previous jump and injury from S3-Susano'o. While on the other hand Kakashi started going for Kamui the moment Sasuke loosed his arrow from his bow, and it was not a Mid or even really short-range Kamui, but a point-blank Kamui, as the arrow was right in-front of his face by the time he finished warping it away.

So not at all comparable to what were discussing here, which is a Shinobi needing to complete a single hand-seal before being warped away by Kamui at distances larger than point-blank range.



> You must have a grudge against Gamaken.


Yeah GM's Arm is not bigger than Gammaken's Shield, let alone his Shield and other half of his body.



> Once Gamaken is taken out, Jiraiya will not summon any more toads to use as meatshields, because he loves those toads more than you seem to.


Yeah he'll just cast another Jutsu to block LOS, while Kakashi recover from the recoil of using such a gigantic Kamui usage.​


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Asura could still move around w/ heavy damage because he was part cyborg. RKB however paralyzed his entire body and likely machinery preventing him from moving. However at no point was there ever any mention of it paralyzing his chakra or any Raiton in the manga being capable of that, for that matter. So Don't expect me to just accept some fanfiction ability you've given Kakashi as real.


RKB stopped him from moving, i.e. shocked his body, i.e. unable to make gather the physical or spiritual aspect to form chakra required by Hiraishin to jump. It's not fan fiction, it's common sense, you get electrocuted, you're body stops its regular functions momentarily despite what you might be thinking about doing. Minato goes to use Rasengan on a RKB, he needs to make physical contact for that happen, when he does, he'll be stuck there due to the effects of the RKB.



Turrin said:


> For the third time I wasn't comparing their intangibility, I was comparing Obito's ability to warp himself, others, and objects to Kakashi's.
> 
> And the point I'm trying to make isn't about whose more skillful, it's about if Hiraishin was able to counter Kamui twice in the hands of the vasty superior Kamui users (Obito), than it's not going to be very effective in the hands of Kakashi.


For the 9230535823th time, Kakashi in War Arc was better with Kamui than Obito was, since he tricked Obito with the same technique. He's more intelligent than Obito stating that both Kamui users are below Hiraishin users is inaccurate since both Kamui users are definitely not on the same level as each other. I see Kakashi being better than Obito (in terms of offense), whereas Obito is better with defense.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 13, 2016)

As a rule of thumb, I tend to assume that all high level characters have some degree of proficiency in ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu. From what I recall, it's actually one of the requirements to be a jōnin; specialists or people who specialise in one area are tokubetsu jōnin instead. Considering this, I don't think it's entirely unfair to give characters like Mei or Gaara _some_ degree of taijutsu skill or knowledge; the latter noticeably improves in hand to hand combat between the first and second databook and also has an above average score in genjutsu.

That said, _"some degree of proficiency"_ doesn't necessarily equate to mastery, either. For example, Gaara might have an above average score in genjutsu, but that doesn't mean he can cast it or be able to resist illusions cast by an absolute master. The scores in the databook refer to their knowledge of that specific field just as much as it does their ability to use it. So, both he and Mei would lose in a close combat fight to anyone who's properly trained in it.

Skilled genjutsu users have shown the ability to catch other skilled genjutsu users in their illusions if they're good enough. Itachi reversed Kurenai's, who is meant to be Konoha's specialist, and Sasuke immobilized C, who in turn was at least good enough to temporarily paralyse Sasuke. So even though it's probably fair to give kage-level shinobi the benefit of the doubt when it comes to genjutsu (I assume that, at the minimum, they have the same level of skill Naruto did at the start of part II), they're definitely not immune to it by any means.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> RKB stopped him from moving, i.e. shocked his body, i.e. unable to make gather the physical or spiritual aspect to form chakra required by Hiraishin to jump. It's not fan fiction, it's common sense, you get electrocuted, you're body stops its regular functions momentarily despite what you might be thinking about doing. Minato goes to use Rasengan on a RKB, he needs to make physical contact for that happen, when he does, he'll be stuck there due to the effects of the RKB.


I challenge you to find me one scan that states, if the body is physically paralyzed that a person can't mold chakra. Because we've certainly seen many examples where the body was paralyzed by a Genjutsu and the person could still mold chakra to use Techniques; see Tayuya's Genjutsu against Shikkamaru, Sasuke, and Itachi. See Itachi's and Sasuke's binding Genjutsu against people, and so on. We've also directly seen Sasuke flowing Raiton Chakra through Yamato's body to paralyze him and it didn't stop him from casting Jutsu.



> For the 9230535823th time, Kakashi in War Arc was better with Kamui than Obito was, since he tricked Obito with the same technique.


WTF, Kakashi is better, because he was able to outmatch Obito w/ the help of BM-Naruto, Gai, and B.. You got to be fucking kidding me dude.



> He's more intelligent than Obito stating that both Kamui users are below Hiraishin users is inaccurate since both Kamui users are definitely not on the same level as each other. I see Kakashi being better than Obito (in terms of offense), whereas Obito is better with defense.


Yeah, your right they are not the same level, Obito is vastly superior to Kakashi; in both offense and defense.

If Kakashi could use his Kamui as freely as Obito could use his maybe we could talk about offense vs defense, but that's not the case. Obito's ability to freely use Kamui makes him vastly superior in both regards.


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I challenge you to find me one scan that states, if the body is physically paralyzed that a person can't mold chakra. Because we've certainly seen many examples where the body was paralyzed by a Genjutsu and the person could still mold chakra to use Techniques; see Tayuya's Genjutsu against Shikkamaru, Sasuke, and Itachi. See Itachi's and Sasuke's binding Genjutsu against people, and so on. We've also directly seen Sasuke flowing Raiton Chakra through Yamato's body to paralyze him and it didn't stop him from casting Jutsu.


Deidara couldn't mold anything after he was hit with raiton flow. I don't see any Hiraishin user being able to jump in the same instant after being hit with the RKB. Even Yamato was able to mold after, he needed time to adjust to his current situation. The key point being needing time to adjust, Hiraishin users aren't safe from the side-effects of jutsu. I mean, Minato will require time to mitigate the effects of the technique, such time that Kakashi could use to take him out.



Turrin said:


> WTF, Kakashi is better, because he was able to outmatch Obito w/ the help of BM-Naruto, Gai, and B.. You got to be fucking kidding me dude.


A fresh Kakashi would have replicated that with clones if he wanted to. The others distracting him could have been done by Kakashi himself too. The point is Kakashi was able to use a Kamui better than Obito in that encounter, in fact he completely fooled him.



Turrin said:


> Yeah, your right they are not the same level, Obito is vastly superior to Kakashi; in both offense and defense.


The latter is true, Obito's intangibility defense is something Kakahsi doesn't have but Kakashi has had better offensive feats with it than Obito. What has Obito done with it aside from throw shuriken? 



Turrin said:


> If Kakashi could use his Kamui as freely as Obito could use his maybe we could talk about offense vs defense, but that's not the case. Obito's ability to freely use Kamui makes him vastly superior in both regards.


Kakashi needed the intangibility aspect of Kamui to be nigh untouchable, if you give him that ability and then attempt to compare these two, I think it becomes obvious that Obito is nowhere near as skilled.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 13, 2016)

Deidara not being able to mold anything after being hit by raiton is probably more to do with the fact that his affinity is completely neutralised by lightning than anything else. If there's raiton chakra flowing through his body, then it's obvious that he wouldn't be able to turn his chakra into the earth affinity necessary to shape his clay.


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## Saru (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The difference being that when the Amaterasu flames have spawned on you, the Jutsu has already accomplished it's end goal. On the other hand when a Kamui warp forms around someone, that's not the end of the Jutsu, the wormhole still needs to be controlled by the user to suck the target into box-land. So if someone reacts to the distortion in space the moment it starts, they can still do something about the Jutsu; we saw that w/ Deidara.
> "reacted"
> "reacted"




You're using the earliest and absolute worst showing of Kamui to make a rather disingenuous argument. Kakashi's speed and skill with Kamui increased. You should acknowledge that before expecting people to debate with you on the mechanics of Kamui further, myself included. 

Post a panel of Sakura performing handseals or doing anything before being warped. I'll wait. You're also neglecting the fact that smaller targets are easier to warp.




> It's extremely easy to refute.
> 
> 1) Danzo's Seal speed isn't representative of everyones and Danzo had to form not 1, not 2, not 3, but 4 seals to activate Izanagi
> 
> ...




1) Prove that Jiraiya's hand seal speed is _significantly_ faster than Danzo's. I'll wait for you to provide empirical evidence.

2) None of that would significantly impact the equivalence of both scenarios. But the fact that you find the situations "not *at all* comparable" is an indication to me that discussing this matter with you any further would be futile.



> Yeah GM's Arm is not bigger than Gammaken's Shield, let alone his Shield and other half of his body.




It is indeed larger than Gamaken's shield, and Kakashi wasn't finished using Kamui when he used it on the Gedou Mazou either, so he can warp away even more mass than he did.




> Yeah he'll just cast another Jutsu to block LOS, while Kakashi recover from the recoil of using such a gigantic Kamui usage.




Not in the manga I read...
​


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## Dr. White (Mar 13, 2016)

I doubt one can Hirashin out of an RKB if they indeed get hit with the shock.


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## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> You're using the earliest and absolute worst showing of Kamui to make a rather disingenuous argument. Kakashi's speed and skill with Kamui increased. You should acknowledge that before expecting people to debate with you on the mechanics of Kamui further, myself included. ​



Please read my post before attacking a straw-man or i'm done w/ this conversation. I didn't use the Deidara scene, to illustrate the speed of Kamui. I used it to illustrate that there is a time-gap between when the spatial distortion first appears and when a person and object are sucked into Kamui. Of course as Kakashi became more skilled that time-gap became smaller, but it still exists, while Amaterasu has no such gap, once the flames are on you that's it; it's not like the space distorts around a person before the flames ignite on them.



> Post a panel of Sakura performing handseals or doing anything before being warped. I'll wait. You're also neglecting the fact that smaller targets are easier to warp.


I said Sakura reacted the moment the spatial distortion appears. Her shocked expression and exclamation point thought bubble is her reacting to said spatial distortion.



> Prove that Jiraiya's hand seal speed is significantly faster than Danzo's. I'll wait for you to provide empirical evidence.


Saru my point wasn't to compare Jiraiya and Danzo's hand-seal speeds, my point was that when you say X is > Hand-Seal speed, because Danzo couldn't form seals fast enough in respond to X; your making a false equivalency that everyone has the same exact hand-seal speed as Danzo. For example just because Danzo couldn't form seals in that situation does that necessarily mean a hand-seal wizard like Itachi couldn't? 

As far as Jiraiya compares to Danzo, his seal speed may be better or worse than Danzo's, as far as i'm concerned before we even get into that comparison, we must first tackle yet another false equivalency the point is already myriad in, and that's that 4 Hand-Seals is equal to 1 Hand-Seal (Or really Jiriaya just place his hand on a surface, if he has blood drawn).



> None of that would significantly impact the equivalence of both scenarios. But the fact that you find the situations "not at all comparable" is an indication to me that discussing this matter with you any further would be futile.


I'm saying it's not comparable the way your trying to use it, I.E. assert that Kamui > than all hand-seals, no matter distance, skill of user, and amount of seals that have to be performed. Your counter is well these details won't have a significant impact, to which I ask prove to me that they don't. Show me that someone w/ faster hand-seals than Danzo and not in a compromised position like Danzo couldn't have done better. Show me that someone only needing one seal for their Jutsu still couldn't have done so in time. Show me that Kakashi only starting Kamui once the arrow was right in-front of his face, rather than right when it was loose from the bow, wouldn't have changed anything. And so on.



> and Kakashi wasn't finished using Kamui when he used it on the Gedou Mazou either, so he can warp away even more mass than he did.


Kakashi was going for GM's head, he misfired and hit the arm due to Kuchiyose. I'll accept that he could warp away GM's head, and maybe that means he can warp Gammaken's Shield, but not Gammaken's entire body. And even if he could using such an over the top Kamui just to deal w/ a single Boss toad, would be dumb trade off for Kakashi and his Kamui would still have been countered 



> Not in the manga I read...


Okay, i'll bite, show me one scene in the manga where Kakashi warps away an object as big as Gammaken, and than proceeds to use another Kamui immediately after it, w/o leaving any time inbetween for the enemy to cast Jutsu. It's in the manga you read, so you should be able to show me that, right?



Ryuzaki said:


> Deidara couldn't mold anything after he was hit with raiton flow. I don't see any Hiraishin user being able to jump in the same instant after being hit with the RKB. Even Yamato was able to mold after, he needed time to adjust to his current situation. The key point being needing time to adjust, Hiraishin users aren't safe from the side-effects of jutsu. I mean, Minato will require time to mitigate the effects of the technique, such time that Kakashi could use to take him out.
> .


Atlantic Storm already answered this. Yamato needed time to adjust so he could form the needed hand-seal, not to mold chakra. Literally nothing indicates this.



> A fresh Kakashi would have replicated that with clones if he wanted to. .


 .... And I'm done

How about this Let's not discuss Kakashi Ryuzaki and keep our discussions centered around Flash/Arrow, I think we'll both be happier that way.​


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## Ryuzaki (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Atlantic Storm already answered this. Yamato needed time to adjust so he could form the needed hand-seal, not to mold chakra. Literally nothing indicates this.


The point I was trying to make is that Minato would be mid-attack and already using a Rasengan (if we use that example). I'm just trying to see if Minato can see the future or if he's just as susceptible to a clone feint. Because from the looks of it, he'd just know it's a clone and instantly zip away on Hiraishin or something. 



Turrin said:


> .... And I'm done


Hey, don't be like that. I mean, he did make a clone to use Raiden after I don't know how many hours of fighting. The thing most people don't give him credit for is that he's actually really intelligent in battle and probably is the best strategist in the manga. For someone like that, a few tricks and trinkets aren't going to stop him. That's why it's frustrating when people just compare techniques by themselves and don't include individual intelligence and adaptability. 



Turrin said:


> How about this Let's not discuss Kakashi Ryuzaki and keep our discussions centered around Flash/Arrow, I think we'll both be happier that way.


Sure, that works


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## Itachі (Mar 13, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> We have nothing to indicate that he could still use his Sharingan. It was recharging and was covered, which as we have seen with Kakashi, covering it is useful with reducing the amount of usage of said Sharingan. So no, we have nothing indicating he could still use it.
> 
> And yes, my apologies. But he still broke through a genjutsu from Sasuke. He is a genjutsu master, I don't know why you are downplaying Danzo.



I'm not saying that Danzo could still use it but wouldn't the Sharingan still provide a defence, even if Danzo didn't actively try to use it? Though yeah, we don't really know the mechanics of Genjutsu defence in Sharingan.

I'm not trying to downplay Danzo, I don't think Danzo losing to Sasuke's Genjutsu is something that makes him weak because most Ninja in Danzo's position would have been fucked too.


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## Saru (Mar 13, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Please read my post before attacking a straw-man or i'm done w/ this conversation. I didn't use the Deidara scene, to illustrate the speed of Kamui. I used it to illustrate that there is a time-gap between when the spatial distortion first appears and when a person and object are sucked into Kamui. Of course as Kakashi became more skilled that time-gap became smaller, but it still exists, while Amaterasu has no such gap, once the flames are on you that's it; it's not like the space distorts around a person before the flames ignite on them.
> 
> 
> I said Sakura reacted the moment the spatial distortion appears. Her shocked expression and exclamation point thought bubble is her reacting to said spatial distortion.




No need to get so defensive about your argument.

There is no point in bringing up Deidara's _swooshing!_ away from Kamui when moving around is clearly an impossibility against War Arc Kakashi's Kamui. Any character whose speed is less Yondaime Raikage's speed is going to get warped away before they can do anything barring extraordinarily fast defense or offense that requires no physical movement to generate. You failed to address the fact that Sakura was incapable of doing anything before being warped, let alone provide panels that suggest otherwise, so I'll take that as a concession that that Sakura's "reaction" does nothing to prove that Jiraiya can form hand seals before being warped.




> Saru my point wasn't to compare Jiraiya and Danzo's hand-seal speeds, my point was that when you say X is > Hand-Seal speed, because Danzo couldn't form seals fast enough in respond to X; your making a false equivalency that everyone has the same exact hand-seal speed as Danzo. For example just because Danzo couldn't form seals in that situation does that necessarily mean a hand-seal wizard like Itachi couldn't?
> 
> As far as Jiraiya compares to Danzo, his seal speed may be better or worse than Danzo's, as far as i'm concerned before we even get into that comparison, we must first tackle yet another false equivalency the point is already myriad in, and that's that 4 Hand-Seals is equal to 1 Hand-Seal (Or really Jiriaya just place his hand on a surface, if he has blood drawn).
> 
> I'm saying it's not comparable the way your trying to use it, I.E. assert that Kamui > than all hand-seals, no matter distance, skill of user, and amount of seals that have to be performed. Your counter is well these details won't have a significant impact, to which I ask prove to me that they don't. Show me that someone w/ faster hand-seals than Danzo and not in a compromised position like Danzo couldn't have done better. Show me that someone only needing one seal for their Jutsu still couldn't have done so in time. Show me that Kakashi only starting Kamui once the arrow was right in-front of his face, rather than right when it was loose from the bow, wouldn't have changed anything. And so on.




Hand seal speed is not something that varies widely between Kage-level ninja. Jiraiya and Danzo's hand seal speed are going to be roughly equal. The only--and I do mean only--non-Madara-level exceptions are Itachi, whose hand seal speed has been excessively emphasized as faster than other ninja around as level, and perhaps Mei, who depending upon interpretation is able to weave hand seals for her Suiton exceptionally fast. Itachi and Mei are both irrelevant to the character at hand: *Jiraiya*. Nitpicking at my statement by pointing out the one or two possible exceptions is pointless. The statement had perfect clarity of intent, and trying to twist it into something it *clearly* wasn't intended to be (a no-limits fallacy) is not only irksome but wildly inaccurate. 

Kuchiyose is also something that requires multiple hand seals. Kishimoto stopped drawing out panels for hand seals in Part II. Just because we don't see every hand seal being formed doesn't mean that they weren't formed. With that said, Kuchiyose requires several hand seals--more than Izanagi, in fact--which Jiraiya would not be able to form in time to prevent being warped.

As for your request, the burden of evidence is in fact on you in regards to hand seals speed, and this is why I invited you to provide panels of Jiraiya using hand seals faster than Danzo could (which you have failed to do). Danzo was not "compromised" due to his position. That has nothing to do with his ability to move his hands. As for Kakashi, maybe you missed it, but Kakashi didn't have his Mangekyou Sharingan activated when Sasuke had _already_ launched his arrow at Kakashi. That means that Kakashi had to activate his Mangekyou Sharingan, build up the chakra for Kamui, and manipulate the S/T barrier all before that arrow reached him in time. That fact negates any negligible difference in distance between Danzo and Kakashi when faced with a Susano'o Arrow. 

I'm not going to waste my time addressing this hypothetical character who can form seals faster than Danzo, because Jiraiya is not that person.




> Kakashi was going for GM's head, he misfired and hit the arm due to Kuchiyose. I'll accept that he could warp away GM's head, and maybe that means he can warp Gammaken's Shield, but not Gammaken's entire body. And even if he could using such an over the top Kamui just to deal w/ a single Boss toad, would be dumb trade off for Kakashi and his Kamui would still have been countered
> 
> 
> Okay, i'll bite, show me one scene in the manga where Kakashi warps away an object as big as Gammaken, and than proceeds to use another Kamui immediately after it, w/o leaving any time inbetween for the enemy to cast Jutsu. It's in the manga you read, so you should be able to show me that, right?




No one said that Kakashi would warp away Gamabunta's entire body with Kamui, and no one said that Kakashi would be able to do so before Jiraiya got away either. _That_ is a straw man.​


----------



## Turrin (Mar 13, 2016)

Saru said:


> There is no point in bringing up Deidara's _swooshing!_ away from Kamui when moving around is clearly an impossibility against War Arc Kakashi's Kamui.​



The point was to illustrate the difference between Kamui and Amaterasu, because you had drawn yet another false equivalency between the two.



> Any character whose speed is less Yondaime Raikage's speed is going to get warped away before they can do anything barring extraordinarily fast defense or offense that requires no physical movement to generate. You failed to address the fact that Sakura was incapable of doing anything before being warped, let alone provide panels that suggest otherwise, so I'll take that as a concession that that Sakura's "reaction" does nothing to prove that Jiraiya can form hand seals before being warped.


Sakura reacted the moment space began to distort around her. I bring that up not as an example of Sakura being fast enough to defend Kamui, but to show that most high-tiers (if not all) will be able to immediately notice the spatial distortion and react to it. Whether they can respond w/ a quick enough defense to escape or block Kamui, is another point entirely. 

Again this point was only here to establish that Jiraiya should have no problem noticing and reacting the moment Kamui begins to distort space around him. From there it comes down to whether Jiraiya can pull out a defense quick enough to prevent him from being sucked into box land, which brings us to our next points:



> Hand seal speed is not something that varies widely between Kage-level ninja. Jiraiya and Danzo's hand seal speed are going to be roughly equal. The only--and I do mean only--non-Madara-level exceptions are Itachi, whose hand seal speed has been excessively emphasized as faster than other ninja around as level, and perhaps Mei, who depending upon interpretation is able to weave hand seals for her Suiton exceptionally fast. Itachi and Mei are both irrelevant to the character at hand: Jiraiya. Nitpicking at my statement by pointing out the one or two possible exceptions is pointless. The statement had perfect clarity of intent, and trying to twist it into something it clearly wasn't intended to be (a no-limits fallacy) is not only irksome but wildly inaccurate. .


We have a Data-book that plainly illustrates, that hand-seal speed varies among high tiers. That alone is enough to shut down this claim that hand-seal speed is the same outside notable exceptions.



> Kuchiyose is also something that requires multiple hand seals. Kishimoto stopped drawing out panels for hand seals in Part II. Just because we don't see every hand seal being formed doesn't mean that they weren't formed. With that said, Kuchiyose requires several hand seals--more than Izanagi, in fact--which Jiraiya would not be able to form in time to prevent being warped.


This is like claiming Sasuke is actually making the seals for Chidori every time he uses it. We've seen that w/ certain Jutsu the amount of seals or whether seals need to be used at all can be altered depending on the user's skill, and in the case of Kuchiyose Toads, we've seen users cast it w/ one hand-seal and w/ no hand-seals, just blood and contact w/ a surface.



> As for your request, the burden of evidence is in fact on you in regards to hand seals speed, and this is why I invited you to provide panels of Jiraiya using hand seals faster than Danzo could (which you have failed to do). Danzo was not "compromised" due to his position. That has nothing to do with his ability to move his hands.


No dude, your bring the example forward, saying Danzo can form 4 seals as quick or quick than Jiraiya can form 1 (or making contact w/ a surface). If your going to make a claim than your the one that needs to back it up. Just like if I claimed Jiraiya could make 10 hand-seals faster than Danzo can make 4 I'd have to back it up w/ something.

And yes Danzo being on his hands and knees using one of his hands to prop himself up does effect the speed which he can get into a position to case several seals.



> As for Kakashi, maybe you missed it, but Kakashi didn't have his Mangekyou Sharingan activated when Sasuke had already launched his arrow at Kakashi. That means that Kakashi had to activate his Mangekyou Sharingan, build up the chakra for Kamui, and manipulate the S/T barrier all before that arrow reached him in time. That fact negates any negligible difference in distance between Danzo and Kakashi when faced with a Susano'o Arrow.


And where is the evidence that Kakashi didn't have chakra already built up to his eyes incase he needed Kamui? Yes he need to activate Kamui, which takes all of a split instance, and no that alone is not making up for Kakashi having a much bigger head start over Danzo.



> No one said that Kakashi would warp away Gamabunta's entire body with Kamui, and no one said that Kakashi would be able to do so before Jiraiya got away either. That is a straw man.


Okay cool, so you agree if Gammaken is summoned in time him and his shield block LOS and counter Kamui?​


----------



## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> The point was to illustrate the difference between Kamui and Amaterasu, because you had drawn yet another false equivalency between the two.
> 
> Sakura reacted the moment space began to distort around her. I bring that up not as an example of Sakura being fast enough to defend Kamui, but to show that most high-tiers (if not all) will be able to immediately notice the spatial distortion and react to it. Whether they can respond w/ a quick enough defense to escape or block Kamui, is another point entirely.
> 
> Again this point was only here to establish that Jiraiya should have no problem noticing and reacting the moment Kamui begins to distort space around him. From there it comes down to whether Jiraiya can pull out a defense quick enough to prevent him from being sucked into box land, which brings us to our next points:




Then you misunderstood my intent, because I drew no such equivalency. I said that Sakura was unable to do anything about being warped by Kamui in the same way that Danzo was unable to do anything about being roasted by Amaterasu. You have still not addressed the fact that Kamui requires less time, chakra, and concentration when used on smaller targets such as a human head, and it was that usage of Kamui which I was trying to draw attention to. Warping away an entire body is overkill.




> We have a Data-book that plainly illustrates, that hand-seal speed varies among high tiers. That alone is enough to shut down this claim that hand-seal speed is the same outside notable exceptions.




The variation is not enough to suggest that there would be a difference in ability to react between Danzo, which is why I said that hand seal speed does not vary widely. Hand seal speed has almost never come into play in Kishimoto's manga except when Itachi is involved, and it would certainly not be a factor when comparing Danzo's hand seal speed and Jiraiya's hand seal speed.




> This is like claiming Sasuke is actually making the seals for Chidori every time he uses it. We've seen that w/ certain Jutsu the amount of seals or whether seals need to be used at all can be altered depending on the user's skill, and in the case of Kuchiyose Toads, we've seen users cast it w/ one hand-seal and w/ no hand-seals, just blood and contact w/ a surface.




Even if that is that is the case, the difference between one seal and three is not going to be dramatic enough to suggest that other characters would be able to do something before being warped by Kamui, which is in fact faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow. Let's also bear in mind that Jiraiya has to make the motion to draw blood, does he not? Factor that in as well. Unless you think that Jiraiya can perform Kuchiyose without drawing blood as well since it wasn't shown on panel when he summoned Gamaken. That would be interesting.




> No dude, your bring the example forward, saying Danzo can form 4 seals as quick or quick than Jiraiya can form 1 (or making contact w/ a surface). If your going to make a claim than your the one that needs to back it up. Just like if I claimed Jiraiya could make 10 hand-seals faster than Danzo can make 4 I'd have to back it up w/ something.
> 
> And yes Danzo being on his hands and knees using one of his hands to prop himself up does effect the speed which he can get into a position to case several seals.




No, Danzo did not need to "prop himself up" to make hand seals. Danzo does not need to stand to make hand seals. He can make hand seals while sitting, standing, squatting, laying down, and hopping on one foot. He's a ninja. 




> And where is the evidence that Kakashi didn't have chakra already built up to his eyes incase he needed Kamui? Yes he need to activate Kamui, which takes all of a split instance, and no that alone is not making up for Kakashi having a much bigger head start over Danzo.




Oh, no, the burden of evidence is on you. Building up chakra _after_ activating the Mangekyou is the norm, not the exception. It already has precedent.




> Okay cool, so you agree if Gammaken is summoned in time him and his shield block LOS and counter Kamui?




That was a typo. I typed "got away" and meant to type "used other jutsu."​


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## StarWanderer (Mar 14, 2016)

Sadgoob said:


> Finger genjutsu is OP.



Finger genjutsu is sh*t - Kotoamatsukami is OP.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> Then you misunderstood my intent, because I drew no such equivalency. I said that Sakura was unable to do anything about being warped by Kamui in the same way that Danzo was unable to do anything about being roasted by Amaterasu. You have still not addressed the fact that Kamui requires less time, chakra, and concentration when used on smaller targets such as a human head, and it was that usage of Kamui which I was trying to draw attention to. Warping away an entire body is overkill.​



Saru I understood your intent just fine, and I showed you that your example does not apply, as Kamui functions differently than Amaterasu, and that shinobi can react to the spatial distortion appearing. Saying Kamui can be performed faster on smaller objects/body-parts, does not change what i'm saying in the slightest, because Kamui being performed faster doesn't change it's internal mechanics.



> The variation is not enough to suggest that there would be a difference in ability to react between Danzo, which is why I said that hand seal speed does not vary widely. Hand seal speed has almost never come into play in Kishimoto's manga except when Itachi is involved, and it would certainly not be a factor when comparing Danzo's hand seal speed and Jiraiya's hand seal speed.


Prove that a variation the author spent time to record in the Data-book would not make a difference in a situation where a character is tasked w/ performing hand-seals as quickly as possible.



> Even if that is that is the case, the difference between one seal and three is not going to be dramatic enough to suggest that other characters would be able to do something before being warped by Kamui,


Prove it's not dramatic enough.



> which is in fact faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow. .


Kamui isn't faster than Susano'o arrow, it's faster than Susano'o arrow + crossing distance, when used at point blank range.



> Let's also bear in mind that Jiraiya has to make the motion to draw blood, does he not? Factor that in as well. Unless you think that Jiraiya can perform Kuchiyose without drawing blood as well since it wasn't shown on panel when he summoned Gamaken. That would be interesting


Yeah I think he can do it w/o blood, but even if he needed blood, all the guy needs to do is bite his finger and slam his hand on the ground, that motion can certainly be completely before Kamui by someone w/ extremely quick hand-speed like Jiriaya (4.5 in DB). I see no evidence Kamu is faster than that.



> No, Danzo did not need to "prop himself up" to make hand seals. Danzo does not need to stand to make hand seals. He can make hand seals while sitting, standing, squatting, laying down, and hopping on one foot. He's a ninja.


They guy was injured and was holding himself up w/ the palm of his hand, yes that's going to slow down any physical motion.



> Oh, no, the burden of evidence is on you. Building up chakra after activating the Mangekyou is the norm, not the exception. It already has precedent.


What are you talking about. We've seen Kakashi build chakra to his 3T every time he's used a 3T Genjutsu. So we know he can do it, and it stands to reason he did so prior to Kamui. Pretty sure he charged chakra to his 3T before using Kamui against Deidara as well, but I'd have to go back and check. Ether way we know Kakashi can do this, so the burden of proof is absolutely on you, as again it's your point to support.



> I typed "got away" and meant to type "used other jutsu."


Okay cool, so you agree if Gammaken is summoned in time him and his shield block LOS and counter Kamui?​


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Saru I understood your intent just fine, and I showed you that your example does not apply, as Kamui functions differently than Amaterasu, and that shinobi can react to the spatial distortion appearing. Saying Kamui can be performed faster on smaller objects/body-parts, does not change what i'm saying in the slightest, because Kamui being performed faster doesn't change it's internal mechanics.




I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't change it's internal mechanics," but if Kamui is performed faster, the target will have less time to react. No amount of semantics will negate the fact that Kamui can be performed faster on smaller targets than Sakura's body. The point of me bringing up Amaterasu was to show that both Amaterasu and Kamui are jutsu which only the fastest of characters can react to [1].




> Prove that a variation the author spent time to record in the Data-book would not make a difference in a situation where a character is tasked w/ performing hand-seals as quickly as possible.




I already have supported my statement in citing the entire manga. Show me an instance of hand seal speed making a difference or being relevant in any fight ever. You should be able to prove me wrong by citing examples if such examples truly exist.




> Prove it's not dramatic enough.




I don't have to. The time it takes for Jiraiya to draw blood, form two additional hand seals, and slap the ground is well above the time it takes for Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow to travel the distance in question.




> Kamui isn't faster than Susano'o arrow, it's faster than Susano'o arrow + crossing distance, *when used at point blank range*.




That would make Kamui _faster_ than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow. Or as fast as Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow at a *minimum*.




> Yeah I think he can do it w/o blood, but even if he needed blood, all the guy needs to do is bite his finger and slam his hand on the ground, that motion can certainly be completely before Kamui by someone w/ extremely quick hand-speed like Jiriaya (4.5 in DB). I see no evidence Kamu is faster than that.




Can you provide panels of Jiraiya drawing blood and slapping the ground to use Kuchiyose?




> They guy was injured and was holding himself up w/ the palm of his hand, yes that's going to slow down any physical motion.




He wasn't "holding himself up," he was landing.




> What are you talking about. We've seen Kakashi build chakra to his 3T every time he's used a 3T Genjutsu. So we know he can do it, and it stands to reason he did so prior to Kamui. Pretty sure he charged chakra to his 3T before using Kamui against Deidara as well, but I'd have to go back and check. Ether way we know Kakashi can do this, so the burden of proof is absolutely on you, as again it's your point to support.




No, that's not the way it works. Whenever Kakashi "built up" chakra for Kamui, he explicitly stated that he had to do so, or it was made plainly obvious. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something took place when there is *no evidence* that it took place on panel. It's not on me to "prove" something happened that clearly never happened.




> Okay cool, so you agree if Gammaken is summoned in time him and his shield block LOS and counter Kamui?




No, and you still haven't provided any of the evidence I've asked you to provide.

*Burden of Proof:*

Sakura doing anything before being warped by Kamui.
Jiraiya's hand seal speed being greater than Danzo's.
Jiraiya drawing blood and slapping the ground to use Kuchiyose.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'm not sure what you mean by "doesn't change it's internal mechanics," but if Kamui is performed faster, the target will have less time to react. No amount of semantics will negate the fact that Kamui can be performed faster on smaller targets than Sakura's body. The point of me bringing up Amaterasu was to show that both Amaterasu and Kamui are jutsu which only the fastest of characters can react to [1].​



I already explained this, but here it is again:

"The difference being that when the Amaterasu flames have spawned on you, the Jutsu has already accomplished it's end goal. On the other hand when a Kamui warp forms around someone, that's not the end of the Jutsu, the wormhole still needs to be controlled by the user to suck the target into box-land. So if someone reacts to the distortion in space the moment it starts, they can still do something about the Jutsu"



> I already have supported my statement in citing the entire manga. Show me an instance of hand seal speed making a difference or being relevant in any fight ever. You should be able to prove me wrong by citing examples if such examples truly exist


Citing a source, means showing actual examples of that. What you did is make a claim, that differences in Hand-Seal speed hasn't matter ever outside hand-seal prodigies; w/o providing any proof of it. And I already proved you wrong w/ the fact that the author went out of his way to stastically show a difference in hand-seal capabilities between Shinobi in the DB.



> I don't have to. The time it takes for Jiraiya to draw blood, form two additional hand seals, and slap the ground is well above the time it takes for Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow to travel the distance in question.


Jiraiya doesn't have to form any hand-seals, he has to draw blood and have his hand make contact w/ a surface that's it. 

I'm not going to even bother w/ the rest until you acknowledge that fact.



> That would make Kamui faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow. Or as fast as Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow at a minimum.


No it doesn't. It means exactly what I said it does, that it takes Kakashi about the same time to warp an arrow at point-Blank range as it takes for a Susano'o arrow to cross a short distance.



> Can you provide panels of Jiraiya drawing blood and slapping the ground to use Kuchiyose?


Are you seriously arguing that Jiraiya can't do something that a Tsunade on her death bed could accomplish:
[1]

And if you come back saying well that's not Jiraiya, this convo is done, because that is disingenuous as shit and just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not actually acknowledging the point.



> He wasn't "holding himself up," he was landing.


Yeah he was holding himself up after landing and being injured.



> No, that's not the way it works. Whenever Kakashi "built up" chakra for Kamui, he explicitly stated that he had to do so, or it was made plainly obvious. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you to prove that something took place when there is no evidence that it took place on panel. It's not on me to "prove" something happened that clearly never happened.


I already proved Kakashi builds up chakra to three tome all the time for shit like Genjutsu and stuff; and it stands to reason that every time he goes to use Mangekyo he's build chakra up to his 3T.



> No, and you still haven't provided any of the evidence I've asked you to provide.
> 
> Burden of Proof:
> Sakura doing anything before being warped by Kamui.
> ...


You haven't provided any evidence of anything. Why should I do all the work. 

But fine

Point 1 I already provided proof off. Sakura's demonstrating shock is "doing something"

Point 2 the burden of proof is on you to show Danzo can form 4 Hand-Seals faster than Jiraiya can form 1 or simply draw blood and touch a surface, which you haven't proved, as that is my main problem w/ your assertion not whose hand-seal speed is faster, but if you really want to go there, yeah Danzo seal speed seems pretty slow comparatively to most top-tiers considering that sprouting an entire massive tree from his body was considered much faster than he could form 4 seals.

Point 3, I showed above is nothing beyond what should be expect from a Sannin, considering a half dead one was able to do so.​


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## Saru (Mar 14, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I already explained this, but here it is again:
> 
> "The difference being that when the Amaterasu flames have spawned on you, the Jutsu has already accomplished it's end goal. On the other hand when a Kamui warp forms around someone, that's not the end of the Jutsu, the wormhole still needs to be controlled by the user to suck the target into box-land. So if someone reacts to the distortion in space the moment it starts, they can still do something about the Jutsu"




If that someone is Naruto, Minato, Tobirama, Obito, or the Raikage, then yes.




> Citing a source, means showing actual examples of that. What you did is make a claim, that differences in Hand-Seal speed hasn't matter ever outside hand-seal prodigies; w/o providing any proof of it. And I already proved you wrong w/ the fact that the author went out of his way to stastically show a difference in hand-seal capabilities between Shinobi in the DB.




You haven't proven anything, because you have failed to show an instance of hand seal speed making a difference in a fight. Someone who's not Itachi, I mean. Again, this should be rather simple to provide. Hand seal speed coming into play doesn't have precedent, and it certainly doesn't have precedent when faced with jutsu as fast as Kamui.




> Jiraiya doesn't have to form any hand-seals, he has to draw blood and have his hand make contact w/ a surface that's it.
> 
> I'm not going to even bother w/ the rest until you acknowledge that fact.




All of that movement is still more time than it takes to makes *three* hand seals. Izanagi requires three hand seals.




> No it doesn't. It means exactly what I said it does, that it takes Kakashi about the same time to warp an arrow at point-Blank range as it takes for a Susano'o arrow to cross a short distance.




If Kakashi is warping the arrow at _point-blank_ range, key word being point-blank, then its activation time is faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow travels _*period*_. Kakashi used Kamui at the drop of a dime, _after_ Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow had already been launched at him, so the jutsu is faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow from the initial distance at which it was fired *at a minimum*. You're going in circles around the issue, which is Jiraiya's ability to react to Kamui, not Kakashi's ability to "build up chakra."




> Are you seriously arguing that Jiraiya can't do something that a Tsunade on her death bed could accomplish:
> [1]
> 
> And if you come back saying well that's not Jiraiya, this convo is done, because that is disingenuous as shit and just arguing for the sake of arguing, and not actually acknowledging the point.




This is the same as you asking me to "prove" that Kakashi didn't build up chakra for Kamui beforehand. 




> Yeah he was holding himself up after landing and being injured.




No, he was merely landing. You added the other stuff which isn't supported by Danzo's words or actions.




> I already proved Kakashi builds up chakra to three tome all the time for shit like Genjutsu and stuff; and it stands to reason that every time he goes to use Mangekyo he's build chakra up to his 3T.




So, in other words, you can't refute Kakashi's use of Kamui in that situation because there is evidence (or a lack thereof) to support the exact opposite of what you're suggesting?





> You haven't provided any evidence of anything. Why should I do all the work.
> 
> But fine
> 
> Point 1 I already provided proof off. Sakura's demonstrating shock is "doing something"







You know that's not what I asked for. I asked for you to show panels of Sakura doing anything before being warped by Kamui. A few hand seals, maybe some hand gestures, a train of thought--anything. Sakura was warped before she had even realized what happened. She reflected on what happened only *after* she had already been warped.



> Point 2 the burden of proof is on you to show Danzo can form 4 Hand-Seals faster than Jiraiya can form 1 or simply draw blood and touch a surface, which you haven't proved, as that is my main problem w/ your assertion not whose hand-seal speed is faster, but if you really want to go there, yeah Danzo seal speed seems pretty slow comparatively to most top-tiers considering that sprouting an entire massive tree from his body was considered much faster than he could form 4 seals.




The difference in speed between these two actions is clearly not going to be enough to matter. There's no need for me to point out something so plainly obvious.




> Point 3, I showed above is nothing beyond what should be expect from a Sannin, considering a half dead one was able to do so.




Okay, I'll bite. Jiraiya can draw blood and slap the ground to perform Kuchiyose. Now, can you provide some evidence that Jiraiya can do that faster than Danzo can form hand seals? Bear in mind that Kamui's activation speed is also greater than the speed at which Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows can travel, so you would only be scratching the surface in terms of the physical movement speed required.​


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2016)

Saru said:


> If that someone is Naruto, Minato, Tobirama, Obito, or the Raikage, then yes.​



Prove it.



> You haven't proven anything, because you have failed to show an instance of hand seal speed making a difference in a fight. Someone who's not Itachi, I mean. Again, this should be rather simple to provide. Hand seal speed coming into play doesn't have precedent, and it certainly doesn't have precedent when faced with jutsu as fast as Kamui.


So your counter argument is that the author wasted his time recording a totally irrelevant statistic. K, please excuse me if I don't take that stand-point seriously. 

But if you really need an example, like thee very first major battle in the manga highlighted the fact that Kakashi could form his seals so quickly as the reason why he was able to copy & keep up w/ Zabuza's Suiton Ninjutsu:
[1]
[1]
[1]

And the fact that Zabuza couldn't keep up, allowed Kakashi to land Water Explosion on him before he could defend himself:
[1]
[1]



> All of that movement is still more time than it takes to makes three hand seals. Izanagi requires three hand seals.


At most it's the movement required to make 2 hand-seals, 1 moment to bring hand to mouth and another to slam it down (and the first motion is only required if Jiraiya hasn't already drawn blood at that point, which he probably has, as he's a summoner by nature, or one if he simply forms a single hand-seal as he did to summon Ken in the manga). And for the 50th time Danzo requires 4 hand-seals not 3. If you continue to say 3 I'm done, because your being intentionally dishonest then.



> If Kakashi is warping the arrow at point-blank range, key word being point-blank, then its activation time is faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow travels period. Kakashi used Kamui at the drop of a dime, after Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow had already been launched at him, so the jutsu is faster than Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow from the initial distance at which it was fired at a minimum. You're going in circles around the issue, which is Jiraiya's ability to react to Kamui, not Kakashi's ability to "build up chakra.


If Kakashi uses Kamui the moment the arrow is fired, and the arrow doesn't disappear until it's right in-front of Kakashi's face, all that means is Kamui is faster than the time it takes for the Arrow to cross that distance; not that it's faster than the arrow. For it to be faster than the arrow Kakashi would need to Kamui away the arrow the moment it was released from the bow, but that's not what happened.



> This is the same as you asking me to "prove" that Kakashi didn't build up chakra for Kamui beforehand.


No it's not. We've consistently seen Kakashi build chakra to his 3T. So we know he could have had chakra already built to his 3T, especially considering the threat of Suano'o. When you say Jiraiya can't use Kuchiyose w/o hand-seals, despite a half dead Tsunade being able to, you arguing something we know isn't true. There's a big difference.



> No, he was merely landing. You added the other stuff which isn't supported by Danzo's words or actions.


I added nothing. We saw Danzo get injured and than land on his knees, using his hand to hold himself up. Your denying canon, end of story.



> So, in other words, you can't refute Kakashi's use of Kamui in that situation because there is evidence (or a lack thereof) to support the exact opposite of what you're suggesting?


No one's refuting Kakashi's usage of Kamui. He used Kamui. You however made a claim that he had no chakra built up to his eyes and had to charge all of it to his eyes in that moment. To which I merely said that is not necessarily true. You asked me to prove why, that could not necessarily be true, and I've provided evidence for the fact that Kakashi can charge chakra to his eyes even in 3T form and that Kakashi would have reason to have charged some chakra to his 3T at that point, mid battle against a formidable enemy such as Sasuke. 

If you want to make the assertion that Kakashi absolutely did not have any chakra charged to his eye at that point, than the burden of proof is on you to prove that w/o a shadow of a doubt.



> You know that's not what I asked for. I asked for you to show panels of Sakura doing anything before being warped by Kamui. A few hand seals, maybe some hand gestures, a train of thought--anything. Sakura was warped before she had even realized what happened. She reflected on what happened only after she had already been warped.


And you know that's not what I was ever arguing, so stop attacking this straw man.



> The difference in speed between these two actions is clearly not going to be enough to matter. There's no need for me to point out something so plainly obvious.


Prove it



> Okay, I'll bite. Jiraiya can draw blood and slap the ground to perform Kuchiyose. Now, can you provide some evidence that Jiraiya can do that faster than Danzo can form hand seals? Bear in mind that Kamui's activation speed is also greater than the speed at which Sasuke's Susano'o Arrows can travel, so you would only be scratching the surface in terms of the physical movement speed required.


Can I provide evidence that Jiraiya can perform 2 hand motions (or 1) faster than Danzo can perform 4. Well considering you've decided arbitrarily that their hand-speed is the same (all hand-seal speeds are equal) that much should be obvious. Fuck your premise helps me out a-lot if were just assuming everyone's seal speed is equal, cause fuck then I can just attribute everyone's seal feats to Jiriaya, like Animal-Realm casting Kuchiyose before he could be hit by SM-Jriaiya's fastest attack at point blank range. So you better get straight what exactly your saying about hand-seal speed, before we go further, because ether A)You can keep up this charade of everyone is equal in hand-seal speed, besides Itachi, in which case there are some pretty ridiculous fastest feats of forming 1-2 seals, or you can accept seal speeds vary a-lot among high tiers, in which case your Danzo example is proof of nothing besides Danzo being unable to cast 4 seals before Kamui.

And as far as Kamui goes i'm more than willing to show many examples that indicated Jiraiya should be able to perform a 1~2 high speed hand motions before Kamui can warp him away.

Edit: Also not to go off topic, but Jiriaya could also block LOS by spitting fire or Oil, which he can do w/o hand-seals as well, if that really is the big point of contention here:
 the manga
 the manga
 the manga​


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## Big Mom (Mar 14, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I'm not saying that Danzo could still use it but wouldn't the Sharingan still provide a defence, even if Danzo didn't actively try to use it? Though yeah, we don't really know the mechanics of Genjutsu defence in Sharingan.
> 
> I'm not trying to downplay Danzo, I don't think Danzo losing to Sasuke's Genjutsu is something that makes him weak because most Ninja in Danzo's position would have been fucked too.



I don't see anything indicating that the Sharingan can still provide defense despite being covered and "recharging". 

And yes, Sasuke's genjutsu was very subtle and took advantage of the fact that Danzo had to look at his eyes. It wouldn't have worked in any other situation.

But I agree with your main point.


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## Turrin (Mar 14, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> I don't see anything indicating that the Sharingan can still provide defense despite being covered and "recharging".
> 
> And yes, Sasuke's genjutsu was very subtle and took advantage of the fact that Danzo had to look at his eyes. It wouldn't have worked in any other situation.
> 
> But I agree with your main point.


To add to your point, both times Danzo uses Shisui's eye on panel he removes the bandages first:
while a Karasu bunshin disorients
while a Karasu bunshin disorients

So I find it likely Danzo performed his feats in the Sasuke battle w/o ever using Shisui's eye.


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## Sadgoob (Mar 14, 2016)

Naruto had literally clone-trained for _*decades*_ of intense practice in chakra control, to attain the 50% FRS.

He was still worried about finger genjutsu the next time he saw Itachi. And then Itachi shut him down with a crow-cloak genjutsu.

So yeah, no amount of chakra control makes you safe from genjutsu. You actually need a counter like dojutsu, internal partners, etc. It's ridiculous to assume any Joe-Jonin or Ken-Kage can make genjutsu a non-factor.


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## Saru (Mar 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Prove it.




Kamui activation speed is faster than almost all but those aforementioned characters can move.




> So your counter argument is that the author wasted his time recording a totally irrelevant statistic. K, please excuse me if I don't take that stand-point seriously.
> 
> But if you really need an example, like thee very first major battle in the manga highlighted the fact that Kakashi could form his seals so quickly as the reason why he was able to copy & keep up w/ Zabuza's Suiton Ninjutsu:
> Raiton: Kuropansa
> ...




That had nothing to do with Zabuza's hand seal speed being too slow, it had to do with Kakashi having the Sharingan an being to keep up with Zabuza's hand seal speed, then psyching Zabuza out with Sharingan to make Zabuza lose his edge and allow Kakashi to preempt his hand seals with Sharingan precognition. In other words, that was a feat that had to do with the Sharingan.

So that won't cut it.



> At most it's the movement required to make 2 hand-seals, 1 moment to bring hand to mouth and another to slam it down (and the first motion is only required if Jiraiya hasn't already drawn blood at that point, which he probably has, as he's a summoner by nature, or one if he simply forms a single hand-seal as he did to summon Ken in the manga). And for the 50th time Danzo requires 4 hand-seals not 3. If you continue to say 3 I'm done, because your being intentionally dishonest then.




No one is holding a gun to your head, but Izanagi is in fact *three* hand seals. Making a full-body motion still takes more time than moving your hands, so the amount of time it would take Jiraiya to do what you're suggesting would take as long as it would take Danzo to make those three hand seals if not longer.




> If Kakashi uses Kamui the moment the arrow is fired, and the arrow doesn't disappear until it's right in-front of Kakashi's face, all that means is Kamui is faster than the time it takes for the Arrow to cross that distance; not that it's faster than the arrow. For it to be faster than the arrow Kakashi would need to Kamui away the arrow the moment it was released from the bow, but that's not what happened.





Kakashi didn't use Kamui "the moment the arrow was fired," because as you can see in the scan, his Mangekyou Sharingan is not yet activated when Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow is fired.




> No it's not. We've consistently seen Kakashi build chakra to his 3T. So we know he could have had chakra already built to his 3T, especially considering the threat of Suano'o. When you say Jiraiya can't use Kuchiyose w/o hand-seals, despite a half dead Tsunade being able to, you arguing something we know isn't true. There's a big difference.




Not from my perspective. As stated, Kakashi has always either explicitly mentioned or shown that he was building up chakra if he required time to do so. This is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, because we're talking about the time it takes for Kakashi to activate Kamui, not the time it takes for Kakashi to build up enough chakra to warp Jiraiya's head (which is not very long).




> I added nothing. We saw Danzo get injured and than land on his knees, using his hand to hold himself up. Your denying canon, end of story.




Except Danzo doesn't say "I'm compromised" or "I was in a tough spot," he says "no *time* for seals," indicating that he couldn't move his hands quickly enough. 




> No one's refuting Kakashi's usage of Kamui. He used Kamui. You however made a claim that he had no chakra built up to his eyes and had to charge all of it to his eyes in that moment. To which I merely said that is not necessarily true. You asked me to prove why, that could not necessarily be true, and I've provided evidence for the fact that Kakashi can charge chakra to his eyes even in 3T form and that Kakashi would have reason to have charged some chakra to his 3T at that point, mid battle against a formidable enemy such as Sasuke.
> 
> If you want to make the assertion that Kakashi absolutely did not have any chakra charged to his eye at that point, than the burden of proof is on you to prove that w/o a shadow of a doubt.




I've already explained that Kakashi explicitly comments on or makes it obvious when an extended charge time for Kamui is necessary.




> And you know that's not what I was ever arguing, so stop attacking this straw man.




Yeah, and bringing up Sakura was pointless because absolutely nothing comes out of that panel.




> Prove it




I don't have to. Drawing blood and slapping the ground is going to take roughly the same amount of time as Danzo making three simple hand seals, and that much should be obvious. Full-body motions logically take more time to do than moving one's hands.




> Can I provide evidence that Jiraiya can perform 2 hand motions (or 1) faster than Danzo can perform 4. Well considering you've decided arbitrarily that their hand-speed is the same (all hand-seal speeds are equal) that much should be obvious. Fuck your premise helps me out a-lot if were just assuming everyone's seal speed is equal, cause fuck then I can just attribute everyone's seal feats to Jiriaya, like Animal-Realm casting Kuchiyose before he could be hit by SM-Jriaiya's fastest attack at point blank range. So you better get straight what exactly your saying about hand-seal speed, before we go further, because ether A)You can keep up this charade of everyone is equal in hand-seal speed, besides Itachi, in which case there are some pretty ridiculous fastest feats of forming 1-2 seals, or you can accept seal speeds vary a-lot among high tiers, in which case your Danzo example is proof of nothing besides Danzo being unable to cast 4 seals before Kamui.
> 
> And as far as Kamui goes i'm more than willing to show many examples that indicated Jiraiya should be able to perform a 1~2 high speed hand motions before Kamui can warp him away.
> 
> ...




I said that hand seal speed among Kage-level ninja was roughly equal because it does not vary widely enough to make a difference in this particular situation, and hand seal speed has never made a difference in any battle. The time it takes for Jiraiya to use Kuchiyose is going to be roughly equal to the time it would take Danzo to form the three hand seals required for Izanagi unless you can prove that Jiraiya moves at ungodly speeds.

Like those characters I mentioned earlier.​


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## Turrin (Mar 15, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kamui activation speed is faster than almost all but those aforementioned characters can move.​



That's not evidence, that's just a statement w/o substance. One which i'm not inclined to believe as i've seen Gododama that travel about as fast as a thrown Kunai from Kakashi prempt Kamui and Gaara's Sand wall prempt Kamui (and both times were a point blank range Kamui).



> That had nothing to do with Zabuza's hand seal speed being too slow, it had to do with Kakashi having the Sharingan an being to keep up with Zabuza's hand seal speed, then psyching Zabuza out with Sharingan to make Zabuza lose his edge and allow Kakashi to preempt his hand seals with Sharingan precognition. In other words, that was a feat that had to do with the Sharingan.


Sigh.. I shouldn't have to explain this too you. Yes Sharingan tom foolerly was involved, but Kakashi wouldn't have been able to pull that off his seals speed wasn't so incredibly fast in the first place. Sasuke even comments on this. Than Kakashi using Sharingan Genjutsu slowed Zabuza's seal speed down, allowing him to prempt him. Simply put Kakashi's seal speed and Zabuza's seal speed were key components to Kakashi's ultimate victory.

And once again you are blatantly ignoring DBI, DBII, DBIII, all of which distinguished differences in seal speed as a key stat among Shinobi.



> No one is holding a gun to your head, but Izanagi is in fact three hand seals.




Last chance



> Making a full-body motion still takes more time than moving your hands, so the amount of time it would take Jiraiya to do what you're suggesting would take as long as it would take Danzo to make those three hand seals if not longer.


A) I don't agree it takes longer than Danzo forming 4 Seals (from his own compromised position). B)This assumes that Jiraiya has to touch the ground and crouch over to do so, that's not the case, Jiraiya can touch any surface to complete the contract (or may already be crouching when he pulls the summon) or can summon with a single hand-seal. So your assuming a universal truth for something that is dependent on the situation, surroundings, and method for which Jiraiya goes to summon.



> Kakashi didn't use Kamui "the moment the arrow was fired," because as you can see in the scan, his Mangekyou Sharingan is not yet activated when Sasuke's Susano'o Arrow is fired.


The focus on the Sharingan makes me believe he was activating Mangekyo and going for Kamui in that moment, his 3T just hadn't shifted yet. Ether way unless Kakashi was able to Kamui the arrow before it crossed any distance whatsoever, obviously Kamui is not faster than the arrow or even equally as fast, rather it's simply as fast as it takes the arrow to cross a certain amount of distance.



> Not from my perspective. As stated, Kakashi has always either explicitly mentioned or shown that he was building up chakra if he required time to do so. This is irrelevant to the discussion anyway, because we're talking about the time it takes for Kakashi to activate Kamui, not the time it takes for Kakashi to build up enough chakra to warp Jiraiya's head (which is not very long).
> I've already explained that Kakashi explicitly comments on or makes it obvious when an extended charge time for Kamui is necessary.


That is straight false. Kakashi hardly ever mentions when he gathers chakra to his 3T for a specific Jutsu, when he went against Pain we didn't see any indication he was gathering chakra here ether, but do you really think he was just kicking back allowing Deva to prep the nail attack w/o thinking about gathering some chakra in case he needed to use his Dojutsu (strike one of the legendary Kingin Kyoudai with his blade) and that's just one example.. And your the one that brought up chakra build up time, so don't even give me this is irrelevant, it's your point, if you want to concede it that's fine, but don't push it off on me, k.



> Except Danzo doesn't say "I'm compromised" or "I was in a tough spot," he says "no time for seals," indicating that he couldn't move his hands quickly enough.


Yeah he doesn't say "there is no time for seals because a super fast arrow is coming towards me" ether. Why? Because such information is superfluous as we are directly shown that this is a reason why there is no time for seals, just like we are directly shown that Danzo is in a compromised position after being injured and narrowly evading death at the hands of Susano'o. 



> Yeah, and bringing up Sakura was pointless because absolutely nothing comes out of that panel.


Once again the point was to illustrate that any high-tier can react to the spatial distortion, not that they can all pull out a defense in time. You turning it into something that it's not is nobody's problem but your own.



> I don't have to. Drawing blood and slapping the ground is going to take roughly the same amount of time as Danzo making three simple hand seals, and that much should be obvious. Full-body motions logically take more time to do than moving one's hands. I said that hand seal speed among Kage-level ninja was roughly equal because it does not vary widely enough to make a difference in this particular situation, and hand seal speed has never made a difference in any battle.


Yes you do. You are making a claim; Jiriaya drawing blood and slapping the ground is going to take about as much time as Danzo performing 4 Seals; now you need to back up that claim.

It's not my job to comb through the manga to find evidence to debunk every half assed substanceless claim you make. Sorry, but it just isn't. If you want to have a good back and forth conversation, than bring evidence to support your assertions.



> The time it takes for Jiraiya to use Kuchiyose is going to be roughly equal to the time it would take Danzo to form the three hand seals required for Izanagi unless you can prove that Jiraiya moves at ungodly speeds.


Dude like I said even if I accept your premise that differences in hand-seal speed doesn't matter, ignore Danzo being in a compromised position, and assume that Jiriaya slapping the ground and drawing blood takes as much time as Danzo weaving 4 seals, all substances claims on your part, as you haven't provided even a singe piece evidence to support them, that still doesn't prove your premise, that summoning Ken can't ever be a viable counter Kamui.

Why? Because we've seen Jiraiay summon Ken w/ a single hand-seal. And there are also going to be times when Jiriaya can make contact w/ a surface right next to him w/o slapping the ground or already has blood thus lowering the time it takes. Thus both actons should take less time than weaving 4 seals by your own estimations.

So even if I give your baseless claims the benefit of the doubt, (not to mention the innate bias of using one of Kamui's best displays, while ignoring it's less displays), at best you've shown that summoning Ken may not work under certain situations, I.E. when Jiraiya is up against Kamui at Point-Blank Range and for whatever reason has to draw blood and slap the ground before he can summon Ken, but summoning Ken could still work in a myriad of other situations, and therefore is still a very viable counter most of the time.​


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## Big Mom (Mar 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> To add to your point, both times Danzo uses Shisui's eye on panel he removes the bandages first:
> strike one of the legendary Kingin Kyoudai with his blade
> strike one of the legendary Kingin Kyoudai with his blade
> 
> So I find it likely Danzo performed his feats in the Sasuke battle w/o ever using Shisui's eye.



Thank you, I agree. He fought Sasuke to a standstill, without Sharingan prediction and Sharingan defense.


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## Saru (Mar 15, 2016)

Turrin said:


> That's not evidence, that's just a statement w/o substance. One which i'm not inclined to believe as i've seen Gododama that travel about as fast as a thrown Kunai from Kakashi prempt Kamui and Gaara's Sand wall prempt Kamui (and both times were a point blank range Kamui).




It's a statement supported by the showings of Kamui throughout the manga, especially the more recent ones. Gaara's sand did not preempt Kamui. That was a coordinated effort between Kakashi, Gaara, and Minato, and you should acknowledge that fact. Darui was able to attack Sasuke at the exact same time as A, but he's certainly not as fast as him. I have no idea what you're going on about with the kunai bit.




> Sigh.. I shouldn't have to explain this too you. Yes Sharingan tom foolerly was involved, but Kakashi wouldn't have been able to pull that off his seals speed wasn't so incredibly fast in the first place. Sasuke even comments on this. Than Kakashi using Sharingan Genjutsu slowed Zabuza's seal speed down, allowing him to prempt him. Simply put Kakashi's seal speed and Zabuza's seal speed were key components to Kakashi's ultimate victory.
> 
> And once again you are blatantly ignoring DBI, DBII, DBIII, all of which distinguished differences in seal speed as a key stat among Shinobi.




I'm not ignoring anything. I acknowledge the fact that the Databooks have a "hand seals" stat, but that's not what we're discussing. 

Kakashi used a combination of Sharingan precognition and the suggestive power of the Sharingan in that exchange. Jiraiya doesn't have Sharingan precognition or Sharingan Genjutsu. So you'll need to provide a different piece of evidence.



> Last chance




That first panel that you numbered is not a hand seal.




> A) I don't agree it takes longer than Danzo forming 4 Seals (from his own compromised position). B)This assumes that Jiraiya has to touch the ground and crouch over to do so, that's not the case, Jiraiya can touch any surface to complete the contract (or may already be crouching when he pulls the summon) or can summon with a single hand-seal. So your assuming a universal truth for something that is dependent on the situation, surroundings, and method for which Jiraiya goes to summon.




Okay.




> *The focus on the Sharingan makes me believe he was activating Mangekyo and going for Kamui in that moment, his 3T just hadn't shifted yet.* Ether way unless Kakashi was able to Kamui the arrow before it crossed any distance whatsoever, obviously Kamui is not faster than the arrow or even equally as fast, rather it's simply as fast as it takes the arrow to cross a certain amount of distance.




Really? Okay, we can agree to disagree.





> That is straight false. Kakashi hardly ever mentions when he gathers chakra to his 3T for a specific Jutsu, when he went against Pain we didn't see any indication he was gathering chakra here ether, but do you really think he was just kicking back allowing Deva to prep the nail attack w/o thinking about gathering some chakra in case he needed to use his Dojutsu (4 Bijuus with charged bijudamas) and that's just one example.. And your the one that brought up chakra build up time, so don't even give me this is irrelevant, it's your point, if you want to concede it that's fine, but don't push it off on me, k.




I said that Kakashi has *either* stated *or* made it clear when he needed to build up chakra for Kamui. Two options. The example you're pointing to is another instance of Kakashi not requiring a significant amount of chakra to use Kamui. He warped away a nail. That's not something that would require a lot of chakra. 



			
				You said:
			
		

> *And where is the evidence that Kakashi didn't have chakra already built up to his eyes incase he needed Kamui?* Yes he need to activate Kamui, which takes all of a split instance, and no that alone is not making up for Kakashi having a much bigger head start over Danzo.




I was not the one to introduce "buildup" into the discussion as a point of contention. You were--originally in an attempt to blend it with Kamui's activation speed.




> Yeah he doesn't say "there is no time for seals because a super fast arrow is coming towards me" ether. Why? Because such information is superfluous as we are directly shown that this is a reason why there is no time for seals, just like we are directly shown that Danzo is in a compromised position after being injured and narrowly evading death at the hands of Susano'o.




*Time*. *Time* is key word. Danzo didn't have *time* to form seals because he wasn't *fast* enough.




> Once again the point was to illustrate that any high-tier can react to the spatial distortion, not that they can all pull out a defense in time. You turning it into something that it's not is nobody's problem but your own.




I've been waiting an entire page waiting for the other half of that argument, and it has yet to come before my eyes.




> Yes you do. You are making a claim; Jiriaya drawing blood and slapping the ground is going to take about as much time as Danzo performing 4 Seals; now you need to back up that claim.
> 
> It's not my job to comb through the manga to find evidence to debunk every half assed substanceless claim you make. Sorry, but it just isn't. If you want to have a good back and forth conversation, than bring evidence to support your assertions.




The logic being used isn't "half assed." It's pretty easy to follow. You wouldn't even need to have to read the manga to understand it.




> Dude like I said even if I accept your premise that differences in hand-seal speed doesn't matter, ignore Danzo being in a compromised position, and assume that Jiriaya slapping the ground and drawing blood takes as much time as Danzo weaving 4 seals, all substances claims on your part, as you haven't provided even a singe piece evidence to support them, that still doesn't prove your premise, that summoning Ken can't ever be a viable counter Kamui.
> 
> Why? Because we've seen Jiraiay summon Ken w/ a single hand-seal. And there are also going to be times when Jiriaya can make contact w/ a surface right next to him w/o slapping the ground or already has blood thus lowering the time it takes. Thus both actons should take less time than weaving 4 seals by your own estimations.
> 
> So even if I give your baseless claims the benefit of the doubt, (not to mention the innate bias of using one of Kamui's best displays, while ignoring it's less displays), at best you've shown that summoning Ken may not work under certain situations, I.E. when Jiraiya is up against Kamui at Point-Blank Range and for whatever reason has to draw blood and slap the ground before he can summon Ken, but summoning Ken could still work in a myriad of other situations, and therefore is still a very viable counter most of the time.




Well, you'd have to work pretty hard to prove something that isn't true, so if you feel like you've been given a tall order, that's probably the reason why. There is more evidence standing against you then there is evidence to support you.​


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Not about level so much as it is about an actual defence against genjutsu 

Hinata is fodder level yet would deal with itachi genjutsu a lot better than tsunade would for example 

Strategy is either pull a Kabuto and fight in retreat , pull a zabuza and fight with eyes closed , be a sensor , have dojutsu , be a bijuu , be too fast to make eye contact 

Bar those things mentioned , everyone else would get caught more often that not


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## Sadgoob (Mar 15, 2016)

Hiruzen Sarutobi said:


> Thank you, I agree. He fought Sasuke to a standstill, without Sharingan prediction and Sharingan defense.



No, he can see with the Sharingan in his arm. When he was put in genjutsu, you see the _WIGGLE_ of them as they saw through it.

It'd be _really_ dumb for IC Danzo to leave himself as a sitting duck against genjutsu and speed by leaving his eye wrapped.


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## Itachі (Mar 15, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Not about level so much as it is about an actual defence against genjutsu
> 
> Hinata is fodder level yet would deal with itachi genjutsu a lot better than tsunade would for example
> 
> ...



I agree, people act like being a certain level removes the threat of Genjutsu. It reminds me of when Ei said 'Me of all people, falling to a measly Sharingan Genjutsu'.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2016)

Well A does have a particular defence against it 

So his statements is correct . Such normally should not work on him, proven by Madara needing to hold him down first 

not everyone gets benefit of A abilities simply cuz they are on his level


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## Yoko (Mar 15, 2016)

The stretch Turrin is making here is as far fetched as it gets.  Rather than adopting the generally accepted notion that Kamui (and Mangekyo techniques in general) are, you know, *fast*, just as the manga has emphasized time and time again. . . you're trying to rationalize that it's actually slower than it actually is because of a kunai tossing feat by Kakashi, which, lets face it, is an outlier.  If Kakashi could throw kunai as fast as Gedo Dama, he'd open every fight with a Raikiri-enhanced kunai toss.  

And again with this "build-up" mechanic you keep bringing up to rationalize why Kakashi can use the technique faster or making massive assumptions like "Kakashi was already trying to turn his 3T into a Mangekyo, thus why he was able to warp Susano'o arrows in the first place."  Kakashi warped Gedo Mazo's arm off mid-teleport without any lead time when it popped out of Obito's body without notice.  It is impossible for a build-up to have occurred there, and if you're going to assume he casually has giant summon-level Kamui-buildup's on hold at all times, it isn't worth mentioning at all because . . . he'll always have that much built up, anyway.

Your reasoning that tries to disprove Kamui's speed is not only far fetched but is weakly connected as well, requiring many leaps and assumptions to be made for it to even begin making sense.  I mean, we've seriously come to the point of comparing kunai tosses and casting multiple hand seals competing with the speed of a Mangekyo-powered space time technique . . . just, no.


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## Turrin (Mar 16, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The stretch Turrin is making here is as far fetched as it gets.  Rather than adopting the generally accepted notion that Kamui (and Mangekyo techniques in general) are, you know, *fast*


Straw-Man, never said it wasn't fast.



> . . you're trying to rationalize that it's actually slower than it actually is because of a kunai tossing feat by Kakashi, which, lets face it, is an outlier. If Kakashi could throw kunai as fast as Gedo Dama, he'd open every fight with a Raikiri-enhanced kunai toss.


Someone w/ quick hand-speed tossing a Kunai is a fast action. It's just not as fast, as the irrational standard you hold Kamui to, and yes I feel totally justified using "irrational" as the qualifier here, as Kamui has never in the entire manga lived up to the standards you hold it to Yoko. Anyway despite it being a quick action the reason Kakashi can't win a fight w/ Raiton-Kunai toss, is most High-Tier Shinobi have their own quick techniques, that require little to no seals, that can counter, or the conditions of the match aren't conducive to it (Long/Mid Range, obstructions in the way, etc...). Kamui is good because it's a super powerful attack, that is as fast as some of the quickest attacks to pull out (I.E. the ones that take little to no seals), and it is able to do so across all ranges.

As far as it being an outlier goes. It really isn't at all. In another instance we see Gaara being able to raise a sand wall (not even gourd sand) long before Kakashi can complete Kamui. And in that same scene we also see Minato being able to complete his FTG Kunai toss, enter SM, teleport in-front of Madara, swing at him w/ Rasengan, have his arm cut off, and have both his arm and himself kicked away, before Kakashi could complete Kamui.  Than in another instance we see Kakashi going for Kamui, than later on Obito having time to clash w/ Naruto, and than still counter Kakashi Kamui before it could go off against GM. And so on.



> And again with this "build-up" mechanic you keep bringing up to rationalize why Kakashi can use the technique faster or making massive assumptions like "Kakashi was already trying to turn his 3T into a Mangekyo, thus why he was able to warp Susano'o arrows in the first place." Kakashi warped Gedo Mazo's arm off mid-teleport without any lead time when it popped out of Obito's body without notice. It is impossible for a build-up to have occurred there, and if you're going to assume he casually has giant summon-level Kamui-buildup's on hold at all times, it isn't worth mentioning at all because . . . he'll always have that much built up, anyway


Please don't speak to me about outliers, when your going to outright twist facts. Kakashi did not Kamui warp GM mid Kuchiyose. He started using Kamui long before GM was actually transported by Kuchiyose. This has nothing to do w/ even chakra build up, but rather that your presenting an outright false interpretation of how that scene went down.



> Your reasoning that tries to disprove Kamui's speed is not only far fetched but is weakly connected as well, requiring many leaps and assumptions to be made for it to even begin making sense. I mean, we've seriously come to the point of comparing kunai tosses and casting multiple hand seals competing with the speed of a Mangekyo-powered space time technique . . . just, no.


My stance on Kamu is that it's a fast and powerful technique, but it's not fast or powerful enough where Kakashi is likely to one-shot any high-tier w/ it while just standing there and using it in a straight forward manner. It's something that needs to be used w/ finesse and strategy. And because of it's draw-backs Kakashi isn't likely to pull it out unless he realizes there is no other way. So basically Kakashi can die before he realizes he needs Kamui and he can die before he gets a good chance to set up a strategy to give him good odds of landing Kamui. Which is why we've literally never once seen Kamui one-shot anyone in the entire manga, because against the quality of enemies  Kakashi faces relative to himself, at each juncture, make it a very hard thing to pull off. Basically 1 technique w/ heavily drawbacks isn't making up for Kakashi being solidly outclassed otherwise.


And guess what that is exactly how the author treats Kamui in the manga. It has never one-shot any Kakashi MANY enemies and though it's been useful when used strategically or defensively. While on the other hand your estimation of Kamui has never once been brought to bear in the entire manga and therefore it's obvious as fuck that you are straying way far off from the author's intent, when you come into every NBD thread and act like Kakashi has almost assured victory w/ Kamui one-shot.

*@Saru*

Allow me to trim some fat. You've presented one piece of evidence in our entire discussion to support your claims and that's that Kamui is quicker than Danzo can form seals, so it will be quicker than Jiraiya can summon Ken. So I'm going to focus purely on proving that as a false equation, using purely your own reasoning.

1) According to you there is no substantial difference in Jiraiya and Danzo's seal speed.
2) According to you Danzo needed to perform 3 Seals for Izanagi 

So basically following your logic this "shows" that Kamui is faster than Jiraiya can form 3 Seals.

Problem: It does not prove Kamui is faster than Jiraiya can perform 1 Seal. 

Jiraiya has performed Kuchiyose w/ 1 Seal before.

Therefore, thee only evidence you have presented in this entire back and forth, doesn't really prove anything in relation to this discussion.


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## Saru (Mar 16, 2016)

Turrin said:


> *@Saru*
> 
> Allow me to trim some fat. You've presented one piece of evidence in our entire discussion to support your claims and that's that Kamui is quicker than Danzo can form seals, so it will be quicker than Jiraiya can summon Ken. So I'm going to focus purely on proving that as a false equation, using purely your own reasoning.
> 
> ...




You've gotten to the point where you're trying to say making a full body motion and a hand seal is so much faster than making three hand seals that Jiraiya would be able to fare better than Danzo did, and there's no need for me to prove that assertion wrong when it's blatantly so. You must have realized this somewhere along the way in our discussion, because you started to throw out different scenarios like "if Jiraiya is near a wall" (which obviously wouldn't make enough of a difference to matter) or "if Jiraiya already has blood" (which is irrelevant, because Jiraiya would still need to make the motion to draw or use that blood) in order to make your stance seem more feasible in certain situations, but clearly what you're suggesting doesn't make any sense.

A better argument would have been "Jiraiya can exploit the fact that Kakashi needs to be up close in order to use Kamui accurately," or "Jiraiya can fight Kakashi from long range with his superior ninjutsu AoE and use Bunshin feints and distractions to make usage of Kamui more difficult."

Not "Jiraiya's hands and body move faster than Kamui's activation speed."​


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## Yoko (Mar 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Straw-Man, never said it wasn't fast.



When we're talking about people making multiple hand-seals mid-Kamui, you don't have to say it's not fast to inherently imply it.  "P1 Konohamaru can beat Jiraiya" and "Jiraiya is weak" are synonymous.  I never said Jiraiya is weak in the first statement . . . but that's exactly what the first statement means.  So no, it isn't a strawman.



> Someone w/ quick hand-speed tossing a Kunai is a fast action.



So Kakashi can toss kunai faster than a Mangekyo technique and faster than a Juubi Jinchuuriki can hurl an omni-element attack? Is that what we're going with here rather than acknowledge that it's an outlier? So Kakashi can just go into threads solo-ing Kage with Kunai tosses? Nothing any Kage has would come close to that.



> As far as it being an outlier goes. It really isn't at all. In another instance we see Gaara being able to raise a sand wall (not even gourd sand) long before Kakashi can complete Kamui.



Team coordination, which is something that has been pointed out to you dozens of times.  



> Please don't speak to me about outliers, when your going to outright twist facts. Kakashi did not Kamui warp GM mid Kuchiyose. He started using Kamui long before GM was actually transported by Kuchiyose. This has nothing to do w/ even chakra build up, but rather that your presenting an outright false interpretation of how that scene went down.



"Long before"? 

Gedo Mazo appeared because Madara initiated a summon.  Once it came out of Obito's body, the summon teleport activated.  Kakashi was reacting to the situation - he wasn't being the aggressor.  How can Kakashi start using Kamui "long before" when Gedo Mazo literally popped out of nowhere? He had less than an instant and he capitalized on it.



> And guess what that is exactly how the author treats Kamui in the manga. It has never one-shot any Kakashi MANY enemies and though it's been useful when used strategically or defensively.



Retreading old waters.

Kakashi's expertise with Kamui reached its full potential in the War Arc where he was fighting someone immune to the technique, God tiers, and primordial threats.  It still worked on occasions too, like threatening the Juubi, shutting down god-element defenses, etc.  Using Kakashi's track record with the technique as a detriment when he clearly wasn't skilled with it and lacked the stamina to use it aggressively earlier on in the manga is an equally flawed method to support your argument.

The Kamui that Kakashi used against Deidara vs. the Kamui that insta-warped Gedo Mazo's arm and left BM Minato wondering what happened are not the same Kamui.  Stop using the former to downgrade the latter.  It's like me using Part 1 Naruto and Part 1 Sasuke to prove that Kakashi can beat the EoS versions of them.



> While on the other hand your estimation of Kamui has never once been brought to bear in the entire manga and therefore it's obvious as fuck that you are straying way far off from the author's intent, when you come into every NBD thread and act like Kakashi has almost assured victory w/ Kamui one-shot.



No, I acknowledge the enemy's potential counters when they actually have them.  It's just that Jiraiya lacks them.  Telling me someone like Jiraiya can weave multiple hand seals before War Arc Kamui is executed is as far fetched as it gets.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2016)

Yoko said:


> When we're talking about people making multiple hand-seals mid-Kamui, you don't have to say it's not fast to inherently imply it.  "P1 Konohamaru can beat Jiraiya" and "Jiraiya is weak" are synonymous.  I never said Jiraiya is weak in the first statement . . . but that's exactly what the first statement means.  So no, it isn't a strawman.


1) Most high Tiers can form multiple hand-seals extremely quickly. So something can easily be very fast, but still not be able to hit the enemy before they complete multiple hand-seals. So your comparison is disingenuous as fuck, just saying.

2) This is yet another straw-man anyway, as I said Jiraiya could complete 1 Hand-Seal, not multiple before Kamui is completed. 



> So Kakashi can toss kunai faster than a Mangekyo technique and faster than a Juubi Jinchuuriki can hurl an omni-element attack? Is that what we're going with here rather than acknowledge that it's an outlier? So Kakashi can just go into threads solo-ing Kage with Kunai tosses? Nothing any Kage has would come close to that.


I already told you it's not an outlier, rather it conforms to the norm.

Or perhaps firing Gododama is fast, but not insanely fast. Old-Hiruzen was able to partially avoid a Gododama attack fired at him at point blank range by Juubito. Sasuke reacted to another Gododama attack w/ Susano'o arm. And so on.



> Team coordination, which is something that has been pointed out to you dozens of times.


And it continues to be nonsense, as there is no indication it was a coordinated effort whatsoever, and everything instead points to it simply being Gaara, Minato, and Kakashi individually all trying their own  ways to stop Obito  from reaching Madara, as literally none of there moves have anything to do with each others, and Kakashi specifically was trying to warp Obito away as quickly as possible.

So your coordinate attack fanfic is not a counter point.



> Gedo Mazo appeared because Madara initiated a summon. Once it came out of Obito's body, the summon teleport activated. Kakashi was reacting to the situation - he wasn't being the aggressor. How can Kakashi start using Kamui "long before" when Gedo Mazo literally popped out of nowhere? He had less than an instant and he capitalized on it.


You can blatantly see that Kakashi starts using Kamui 2 Panels before the actual Kuchiyose happens:
Link removed

He had a significant head start. 



> Kakashi's expertise with Kamui reached its full potential in the War Arc where he was fighting someone immune to the technique, God tiers, and primordial threats. It still worked on occasions too, like threatening the Juubi, shutting down god-element defenses, etc. Using Kakashi's track record with the technique as a detriment when he clearly wasn't skilled with it and lacked the stamina to use it aggressively earlier on in the manga is an equally flawed method to support your argument.
> 
> The Kamui that Kakashi used against Deidara vs. the Kamui that insta-warped Gedo Mazo's arm and left BM Minato wondering what happened are not the same Kamui. Stop using the former to downgrade the latter. It's like me using Part 1 Naruto and Part 1 Sasuke to prove that Kakashi can beat the EoS versions of them


Yes it is a retred and the issue remains the same, you treat Kakashi's skill w/ Kamui as if he was at the same level as Deiadara fight the entire manga and than magically in the latter half of the war arc got suddenly better. In reality Kakashi as of the Pain arc at the very least already had the ability to warp objects at the same speeds he displayed in the war-arc, he just couldn't use Kamui as freely back then, however if it was as much of an unstoppable one-shot as you claim, it should only take 1 use anyway, so that distinction is pointless for the sake of your argument. 

And no your fanfic overestimations off Kakashi's Kamui is not evidence to the contrary. Minato knew Kakashi used Kamui, that's why he asked Kakashi if Kamui had worked in the panel right after that. The only part Minato couldn't follow is the very tale end of Kamui that happened right before GM was teleported away, not the entire process, which is inherently different than what your claiming, I.E. that Kakashi used Kamui against GM faster than Minato could recognize, which is absurd and laughable.

The rest is a straw man as I never once have used the speed of the Deidara fight Kamui to talk about Kamui's speed throughout the entire manga. 



> No, I acknowledge the enemy's potential counters when they actually have them. It's just that Jiraiya lacks them. Telling me someone like Jiraiya can weave multiple hand seals before War Arc Kamui is executed is as far fetched as it gets.


No one ever told you that, your attacking a straw man.

Jiriaya needs one seal (or to merely touch a surface w/ his hand if he already has blood) to summon Ken to block LOS w/ his shield.
Jiraiya needs one seal for Kage Bushin
Jiriaya also has Katon and Oil Jutsu he can cast w/o needing any seals that can block LOS

That's w/o even getting into the potential for Jiraiya to already have an LOS blocker on the field, or have a KB out already, or Kakashi being too busy focusing on surviving Jiraiya's attacks to get an opening to use Kamui. And that's Base-Jiraiya were talking about not even SM-Jiriaya, who easily defends Kamui thanks to SM sensing.

Not one of those things requires multiple seals to be completed.

Beyond that, acknowledging the few counters you think would work is not conforming w/ authorial intent, it's conforming w/ your own estimation (a biased one at that) of how good you feel Kamui sould be. When in reality tons of characters weaker than Jiraiya have faced Kakashi, and not a single one has been one-shot by Kamui, which tells us that it's not nearly as easy or likely for Kakashi to pull Kamui out and one-shot as you claim.



Saru said:


> You've gotten to the point where you're trying to say making a full body motion and a hand seal is so much faster than making three hand seals that Jiraiya would be able to fare better than Danzo did, and there's no need for me to prove that assertion wrong when it's blatantly so. You must have realized this somewhere along the way in our discussion, because you started to throw out different scenarios like "if Jiraiya is near a wall" (which obviously wouldn't make enough of a difference to matter) or "if Jiraiya already has blood" (which is irrelevant, because Jiraiya would still need to make the motion to draw or use that blood) in order to make your stance seem more feasible in certain situations, but clearly what you're suggesting doesn't make any sense.
> 
> A better argument would have been "Jiraiya can exploit the fact that Kakashi needs to be up close in order to use Kamui accurately," or "Jiraiya can fight Kakashi from long range with his superior ninjutsu AoE and use Bunshin feints and distractions to make usage of Kamui more difficult."
> 
> Not "Jiraiya's hands and body move faster than Kamui's activation speed."​


What in the actual fuck, how is it actually possible that you missed the point. No I'm saying we've seen Jiriaya use Kuchiyose w/ 1 hand-seal, not needing to draw blood or slap the ground. So 1 hand-seal is faster than 3, by your own estimation. Please answer the question instead of attacking straw men every time it's raised.


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## Saru (Mar 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> What in the actual fuck, how is it actually possible that you missed the point. No I'm saying we've seen Jiriaya use Kuchiyose w/ 1 hand-seal, not needing to draw blood or slap the ground. So 1 hand-seal is faster than 3, by your own estimation. Please answer the question instead of attacking straw men every time it's raised.




So you're denying what you've clearly stated? 

I digress. I lack the stamina or patience that Yoko mustered to debate with you on Kamui's activation speed in the past. 

Although, it's funny how you try to use buzzwords or phrases like "authorial intent" to try to support your argument. Kishimoto's "authorial intent" was for Kamui to be a deadly one-shot move which cannot be casually countered with hand seals.

Kamui is a big enough threat to Jiraiya that he can't counter it as casually as you would like him to. Acknowledge that, think of a more feasible counter, and move on.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 17, 2016)

I don't think Jiraiya can casually counter Kamui with handseals but rather, Kakashi can't execute it as flawlessly as people picture he will in their minds.
Feats alone debates are something else, but Turrin has a point. Kamui would play a major part in Jiraiya vs Kakashi, but from a portrayal standpoint, it would never be able to oneshot Jiraiya. And most likely would fail to get the job done, as Jiraiya's portrayal was on a higher level than Kakashi's @ any point in the manga, save for the last 10 chapters which we all can dismiss because it was utter and pure horseshit of a writing.


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## Saru (Mar 17, 2016)

Yeah, no one was arguing that Jiraiya was _completely_ helpless to the Authority of the Gods, but saying that he can stop it with hand seals while his head is being warped is just silly.


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## Turrin (Mar 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> So you're denying what you've clearly stated?
> 
> I digress. I lack the stamina or patience that Yoko mustered to debate with you on Kamui's activation speed in the past.
> 
> ...



You've consistently evaded my questions about 5 times now, and gone off attacking straw men, so it's clear to me that you ether aren't actually reading most posts or your just trolling. So until you address my actual point i'm done.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think Jiraiya can casually counter Kamui with handseals but rather, .


I never said that he could. I said Jiraiya could probably summon Ken in time to block LOS. Jiriaya has can summon w/ 1 hand-seal or no hand-seals (if has blood already drawn). So it's not that Jiriaya is pulling out a string of hand-seals before Kakashi can finish Kamui, it's Jiraiya is using 1 hand-seal at most to utilize his own Space-Time Technique.

The other proposed counters I've stated for Jiriaya are seal-less LOS blockers (his Katon techs that he doesn't need seals for) and Bushin Feint (which requires 1 seal), which he also only requires one-seal for. 

Also bare in mind that i've only ever been talking about Kakashi using a straight forward Kamui, I.E. standing right in-front of the enemy and just using Kamui on them, when I propose these counters; if Kakashi catches someone off guard it's an entirely different story.

Just to set the record straight.​


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