# Report: Turkey navy to escort aid ships to Palestinians in Gaza



## xenopyre (Sep 3, 2011)

> The Turkish navy will significantly strengthen its presence in the eastern Mediterranean Sea as one of the steps the Turkish government has decided to take following the release of the UN Palmer report on the 2010 Gaza flotilla, Turkish officials told the Hurriyet Daily News.
> 
> "The eastern Mediterranean will no longer be a place where Israeli naval forces can freely exercise their bullying practices against civilian vessels," a Turkish official was quoted as saying.
> Israel navy July 19, 2011 (AP)
> ...




I smell war if situation keep escalating this way .


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## Nemesis (Sep 3, 2011)

Lemme guess if Israel does anything Turkey will run crying screaming Article 5 of NATO.


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## Terra Branford (Sep 3, 2011)

And when they try something, Israel will spank them for being bad little children.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 3, 2011)

So it's a war against a nuclear state Turkey wants eh. How touching they're willing to risk their very existence over the Pali's when just over the border people in Syria are suffering far more.

Anyway, this is just a stupid bluff by butthurt Turks over the naval blockade being declared legal by the UN. You can bet not even Erdogan would even be that crazy enough and NATO, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, etc. would all come down hard on Turkey to stop this in order to avoid a regional war.

A "war" wouldn't be a good option for Turkey even if you accept they're militarily stronger then Israel. Despite Turkey's large well-equipped army they would have little means of using it, they don't border Israel and coming down through Syria would mean coordinating their army with Assad, something that would be a diplomatic/PR disaster for Turkey and something Assad couldn't accept foreign troops streaming through the country by the hundreds when he has to crack down on dissent. This would mean the only real action they could take against Israel are with their navy/air force operating fairly far from home, in which case they'll run into extensive Israeli air/coastal defenses and take heavy losses.


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## Nemesis (Sep 3, 2011)

Mega I think it is because Turkey is going to use itself as a NATO member to try to make it seem like they are the victims of an attack and activate the alliance.  It will almost certainly backfire though.  Although Turkey does have a history of trying to flex its military might for next to no reason.


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## JH24 (Sep 3, 2011)

I'm sorry to say, but Turkey's actions are starting to become annoying. They're acting immature and are helping no one with this.

I hope it's just meant to look tough and for domestic purposes. Because I don't want to think what could happen if it would lead to a confrontation.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 3, 2011)

Nemesis said:


> Mega I think it is because Turkey is going to use itself as a NATO member to try to make it seem like they are the victims of an attack and activate the alliance.  It will almost certainly backfire though.  Although Turkey does have a history of trying to flex its military might for next to no reason.



Of course the Turks would try to play the NATO card. But nobody in NATO, not even the fiercely anti-Israel states like Norway, would want anything to do with a new war, nevermind one with a country like Israel.

All that would happen is Erdogan being embarrassed. He'll sick his NATO dogs on Israel and nobody shows up with him redfaced. Maybe he'll cry again.


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## Shinigami Perv (Sep 3, 2011)

Oh dear. I don't think anything will come of it, however. So far it's just a report which doesn't mean a whole lot. I'll worry about it when it looks like it will actually happen.

Israel should really make an attempt to bury the hatchet. This whole thing has spiraled out of control since the infamous chair humiliation incident of the Turkish ambassador. I suspect that Erdogan politically benefits from this and will not stop any time soon unless Israel makes some gesture. Actually he probably wants it to continue to gain political capital on a domestically meaningless issue and spend it on his reforms.


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## kayanathera (Sep 4, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Of course the Turks would try to play the NATO card. But nobody in NATO, not even the fiercely anti-Israel states like Norway, would want anything to do with a new war, nevermind one with a country like Israel.
> 
> All that would happen is Erdogan being embarrassed. He'll sick his NATO dogs on Israel and nobody shows up with him redfaced. Maybe he'll cry again.



you are too cocky jewish boy.why would turkey react so retarded? instead of selling the palestinians top quality anti-tank missiles and let them drag you into a quagmire, have you forgotten the last meeting with the russian kornet missiles?


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## Megaharrison (Sep 4, 2011)

kayanathera said:


> you are too cocky jewish boy.why would turkey react so retarded? instead of selling the palestinians top quality anti-tank missiles and let them drag you into a quagmire, have you forgotten the last meeting with the russian kornet missiles?



So Turkey would illegally smuggle American/European-made Anti-Tank missiles to a recognized terrorist group by the EU/civilized world against the wishes of allied Egypt (who it would have to smuggle through) for no apparent reason (give a legitimate reason as to why it's in Turkey's benefit to arm Hamas). You effectively have turned Turkey into Iran. Brilliant plan! U shoed dem juice!

Moreover Kornets != great victory. Hamas had plenty of them in Cast Lead and still suffered a serious defeat. Moreover the last few instances of Kornet encounters they've been intercepted the Trophy APS (look it up as you obviously don't know what this is). 

And you tell me why Turkey would react so retardedly with the naval escort thing. I'm not the one who made the report.


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## thekingisback (Sep 4, 2011)

So Turkey is about to bitchslap Israel? Me do like to see.


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## Berserk (Sep 4, 2011)

thekingisback said:


> So Turkey is about to bitchslap Israel? Me do like to see.



And then, you woke up.


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## Altron (Sep 4, 2011)

Just wait till German built Israeli Dolphin Submarines start sinking Turkish Ships if they join the flotilla.


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## Jin-E (Sep 4, 2011)

Damn, is Turkey's anus really that sore?


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## Oil Can (Sep 4, 2011)

There will be a war, the corrupt jews (or just specifically MH, whatever) will be killed and/or returned to Europe (or whatever it is we want to happen to them these days AND WE KNOW IT MUST BE DONE).

Just kidding. Turkey's just butthurt that it can't get into the EU and is all like "well I'll just go and join back up with the arab kids... Oh, we've gotta help palestine with their rich step-brother than took over the greater part of their room when their dad got remarried"


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey look, more racism against brown people by the usual suspects. Who would have guessed ?


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## thekingisback (Sep 4, 2011)

Berserk said:


> And then, you woke up.


Hahahahahaha


*Spoiler*: __ 



haha


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## g_core18 (Sep 4, 2011)

Turkey is gonna lose some ships.


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## Oil Can (Sep 4, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Hey look, more racism against brown people by the usual suspects. Who would have guessed ?



Dem j00s

You should do something about them.


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## ThatsWhatIsLove (Sep 4, 2011)

Nice that some one is standing up for the little guys.


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## Coteaz (Sep 4, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> Nice that some one is standing up for the little guys.


You mean the little guys that shoot up school buses?


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 4, 2011)

All this mess could be solve if a Palestinian state is created.


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## Akatora (Sep 4, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> All this mess could be solve if a Palestinian state is created.



Hopefully, Gaza is the biggest problem on one side and the settlers the biggest at the west bank.


Gaza should become independant of the westbank since a country that got another country in between is not a smart idea.


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## stream (Sep 4, 2011)

Not looking forward to this. It would be ridiculous for armies to fight over such an irrelevant issue as the blockade.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 4, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> All this mess could be solve if a Palestinian state is created.



How? Explain.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 4, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> How? Explain.



Israel impose a embargo to the region. As a State, it would be more difficult for Israel to impose this embargo (and then ease the tension with Turkey) and also easier for Israel to have an international support if they are attacked by the Palestinian State. If after be allowed to have a State, they still mess, they would not be supported. They couldn't be supported.


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## stream (Sep 4, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> Israel impose a embargo to the region. As a State, it would be more difficult for Israel to impose this embargo (and then ease the tension with Turkey) and also easier for Israel to have an international support if they are attacked by the Palestinian State. If after be allowed to have a State, they still mess, they would not be supported. They couldn't be supported.



I must say I don't see how having Palestine be a state change any of that. Rockets will still fall on Israel ? why would they stop? They are not even all organized by the Hamas, who will in any case refuse to recognize the existence of Israel, claim victory for being recognized as a country, and thus encouraged, vow to keep fighting the invader. Israel will still send the occasional targeted attack or punitive bombing (like they did on Lebanon, which has been a state for a very long time). Israel will certainly continue the embargo, citing the rocket attacks and the right to protect themselves; and people will continue to complain about it, even though anything can be sent to Palestinians through Egypt.

And I don't see why people would stop supporting the Palestinian State if it messed up. It is already a de facto state, and they mess up frequently. In fact, it would be stupid to stop supporting Palestinians when they go on messing up after becoming a state, because it is delusional to think that they would stop messing up just because they would become a state.

At least in my opinion.


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## Seph (Sep 4, 2011)

Terra Branford said:


> And when they try something, Israel will spank them for being bad little children.



Turkey is ranked the sixth strongest military in the world. Israel is tenth.


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## Mael (Sep 4, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> Nice that some one is standing up for the little guys.



This was a retarded thing to say.


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## Nemesis (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Turkey is ranked the sixth strongest military in the world. Israel is tenth.



But does turkey have the ability not only to launch an attack on Israel but have the quality of airmen and navy to effectively blockaid israel enough for them to back down.  Not to mention possibility of Cyprus somehow getting involved (in non military ways) helping Israel as well.


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## Altron (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Turkey is ranked the sixth strongest military in the world. Israel is tenth.


Nuclear tipped Jericho ICBM's say hello


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 4, 2011)

stream said:


> I must say I don't see how having Palestine be a state change any of that. Rockets will still fall on Israel ? why would they stop? They are not even all organized by the Hamas, who will in any case refuse to recognize the existence of Israel, claim victory for being recognized as a country, and thus encouraged, vow to keep fighting the invader. Israel will still send the occasional targeted attack or punitive bombing (like they did on Lebanon, which has been a state for a very long time). Israel will certainly continue the embargo, citing the rocket attacks and the right to protect themselves; and people will continue to complain about it, even though anything can be sent to Palestinians through Egypt.
> 
> And I don't see why people would stop supporting the Palestinian State if it messed up. It is already a de facto state, and they mess up frequently. In fact, it would be stupid to stop supporting Palestinians when they go on messing up after becoming a state, because it is delusional to think that they would stop messing up just because they would become a state.
> 
> At least in my opinion.



My opinion is that the international community would change their way to treat the situation if there is a Palestinian state. The situation of being without a state help them be shown are the victims. 

Most of time, I avoid to give my opinion on the Israeli Palestinian conflict because the subject is very very very sensitive in NF and we can learn nothing except anger from the Pro Israeli and the pro Palestinian.


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## Seph (Sep 4, 2011)

Altron said:


> Nuclear tipped Jericho ICBM's say hello



Using them would have very, very dire consequences for Israel.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 4, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> Israel impose a embargo to the region. As a State, it would be more difficult for Israel to impose this embargo (and then ease the tension with Turkey) and also easier for Israel to have an international support if they are attacked by the Palestinian State. If after be allowed to have a State, they still mess, they would not be supported. They couldn't be supported.



The embargo is not the reason for the tensions with Turkey, it's just an excuse by the Turkish government. Moreover Turkey doesn't care if we're attacked by the Palestinians, state or not. Erdogan has even vocally supported Palestinian attacks on Israel.



			
				Sephiran said:
			
		

> Turkey is ranked the sixth strongest military in the world. Israel is tenth.



Lol, says who? 

Also let me reiterate:

A "war" wouldn't be a good option for Turkey even if you accept they're militarily stronger then Israel. Despite Turkey's large well-equipped army they would have little means of using it, they don't border Israel and coming down through Syria would mean coordinating their army with Assad, something that would be a diplomatic/PR disaster for Turkey and something Assad couldn't accept foreign troops streaming through the country by the hundreds when he has to crack down on dissent. This would mean the only real action they could take against Israel are with their navy/air force operating fairly far from home, in which case they'll run into extensive Israeli air/coastal defenses and take heavy losses.

Until you are able to counter this, go away.


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## Seph (Sep 4, 2011)

> Lol, says who?







> Until you are able to counter this, go away.



Don't try to make yourself feel important, I wasn't even replying to you.  I am under no obligation to respond to your worthless paragraph. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with mine.


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## Sky is Over (Sep 4, 2011)

I could see this getting really ugly if it were to become hot. Turkey by naval standards has a capable surface fleet, but the Israelis have some high-end submarines and an experienced air force to back it up. I could see only a campaign in the Med. happening, but not something on the equivalent of an all out war.


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## Altron (Sep 4, 2011)

LOL @ your source. India is stronger than the UK? 

FYI Megaharrison has already brought up points which you obviously can't respond too. 

Concession is accepted.


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## Seph (Sep 4, 2011)

Altron said:


> LOL @ your source. India is stronger than the UK?
> 
> FYI Megaharrison has already brought up points which you obviously can't respond too.
> 
> Concession is accepted.



Yes. They have a population several times greater than the UK. What's so hard to believe? 

Don't be retarded. Megaharrison's post has absolutely nothing to do with mine. I simply stated that Turkey has a stronger military than Israel. That doesn't mean that Turkey can beat Israel in a war.

Learn to read, and don't post like a toddler next time.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 4, 2011)

Oh God not that website. 

Do you really think you gauge a nations military strength by putting numbers into an equation? 

A good example: Brazil is ranked higher then Germany. Brazil has 12 modern fighter jets to Germany's ~300. Are you really going to claim Brazil is militarily stronger then Germany? 

Global firepower takes 45 statistics into account. Seen . Among the areas it does _not_ take into account are:

-Equipment quality
-training
-terrain
-command & control
-electronic warfare capability
-deployment
-organizational capability
-logistical management capability
-irregular warfare capability
-who is defending and who is attacking
-in what context is the combat occurring. 
-international reaction & measures to the combat itself.

Are you really going to claim all of those are unnecessary in determining military strength? That website is full of bullshit and doesn't take actual knowledge or context into account. 



> Don't try to make yourself feel important, I wasn't even replying to you.  I am under no obligation to respond to your worthless paragraph. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with mine.



Except it counters it in every fashion. You claim Turkey's apparent military superiority is relevant in this issue when I've proven it hasn't. Either counter it or go away and cry about how mean I am like the rest of you people have done. Neg rep me if it makes you feel better. I'm not more important, I'm just smarter.


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## Coteaz (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Don't try to make yourself feel important, I wasn't even replying to you.  I am under no obligation to respond to your worthless paragraph. Your post has absolutely nothing to do with mine.


You're throwing around military power levels like this is DBZ. It isn't.



> Don't be retarded. Megaharrison's post has absolutely nothing to do with mine. *I simply stated that Turkey has a stronger military than Israel. That doesn't mean that Turkey can beat Israel in a war.*


You tossed it out to retaliate against Terra saying that Israel could beat Turkey. If Turkey has a stronger military, but can't beat Israel, what is the point of your entire argument? 

Answer: You can't admit that you lost, badly.



> Yes. They have a population several times greater than the UK. What's so hard to believe?


Oh boy oh boy.

Listen kid, this isn't 300 BC anymore. Population does not equal military superiority.


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## Seph (Sep 4, 2011)

> Are you really going to claim all of those are unnecessary in determining military strength? That website is full of bullshit and doesn't take actual knowledge or context into account.



You need to prove that Israel is superior to Turkey in each and every one of those if you want to make it a valid point, because if not, it's just an empty statement.



> Except it counters it in every fashion. You claim Turkey's apparent military superiority is relevant in this issue when I've proven it hasn't. Either counter it or go away and cry about how mean I am like the rest of you people have done. Neg rep me if it makes you feel better. I'm not more important, I'm just smarter.



I never stated that Turkey would beat Israel in a war. When I was talking about strength, I was simply talking about their relative sizes - Turkey has a much larger navy and air force, for example.

So, you're smarter than me because you have patriotic outbursts on an internet forum? That's lovely and all, but you really need to grow up.



> You tossed it out to retaliate against Terra saying that Israel could beat Turkey.



HAHAHA. I said Turkey had a stronger military than Israel. Not that one could beat another. Learn to read.



> Listen kid, this isn't 300 BC anymore. Population does not equal military superiority.



Of course not, but it's a very significant factor. A greater population - more manpower, etc. etc.


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## Altron (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> Yes. They have a population several times greater than the UK. What's so hard to believe?
> 
> Don't be retarded. Megaharrison's post has absolutely nothing to do with mine. I simply stated that Turkey has a stronger military than Israel. That doesn't mean that Turkey can beat Israel in a war.
> 
> Learn to read, and don't post like a toddler next time.





Megaharrison said:


> Oh God not that website.
> 
> Do you really think you gauge a nations military strength by putting numbers into an equation?
> 
> ...





Coteaz said:


> You're throwing around military power levels like this is DBZ. It isn't.
> 
> 
> You tossed it out to retaliate against Terra saying that Israel could beat Turkey. If Turkey has a stronger military, but can't beat Israel, what is the point of your entire argument?
> ...


I don't even have to post anymore


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## Coteaz (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> I never stated that Turkey would beat Israel in a war. When I was talking about strength, I was simply talking about their relative sizes - *Turkey has a much larger navy and air force, for example.*





From your own website. 



> HAHAHA. I said Turkey had a stronger military than Israel. Not that one could beat another. Learn to read.


Nope, you put it out as a direct refutation of Terra's post. Claim all you like, but it's there plain as can be. 

Also: a stronger military that is incapable of defeating a weaker one in conventional war. Great argument.



> Of course not, but it's a very significant factor. A greater population - more manpower, etc. etc.


Manpower means nothing without industry to arm them, agriculture to feed them, logistics to guide them...


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## Megaharrison (Sep 4, 2011)

Sephiran said:


> You need to prove that Israel is superior to Turkey in each and every one of those if you want to make it a valid point, because if not, it's just an empty statement.



Except I don't because you've presented your own source as to why Turkey is supposedly stronger. I've introduced points as to why your source is invalid. You must now defend your source, or else admit your source was BS. If you admit you source is BS, you must introduce another.

I asked for actual evidence as to how Turkey is stronger then Israel. You've yet to provide it.



> I never stated that Turkey would beat Israel in a war. When I was talking about strength, I was simply talking about their relative sizes - Turkey has a much larger navy and air force, for example.
> 
> So, you're smarter than me because you have patriotic outbursts on an internet forum? That's lovely and all, but you really need to grow up.



So if the two fought on a big flat open plain with no other interference's and ignored everything else Turkey might win? Hooray. That's so important when talking about actual warfare between two countries. Brilliant plan.

This isn't the OBD, it doesn't work like that. 

Now that you've obviously conceded with this whole "Derp I never said Turkey could beat Israel I just said it was _stronger_" (lol) thing you've pretty much admitted defeat. Your argument now is that while Turkey is stronger then Israel Turkey can't actually beat Israel. Great success.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey look, its the MH wankers.


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## Coteaz (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey look, it's a Turk


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 4, 2011)

Hey look, its someone with a useless degree


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## ExoSkel (Sep 4, 2011)

What would the Turks do if the Israeli supported the Kurds?


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## Oil Can (Sep 5, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Hey look, its someone with a useless degree



Ooo what?

English? Journalism? Theater? PLEASE TELL I NEED A SELF ESTEEM BOAST NAO


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## stream (Sep 5, 2011)

Whatever. It is highly doubtful that there is going to be a war. Turkey certainly knows better than starting one.


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## xenopyre (Sep 5, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> A "war" wouldn't be a good option for Turkey even if you accept they're militarily stronger then Israel. Despite Turkey's large well-equipped army they would have little means of using it, they don't border Israel and coming down through Syria would mean coordinating their army with Assad, something that would be a diplomatic/PR disaster for Turkey and something Assad couldn't accept foreign troops streaming through the country by the hundreds when he has to crack down on dissent. This would mean the only real action they could take against Israel are with their navy/air force operating fairly far from home, in which case they'll run into extensive Israeli air/coastal defenses and take heavy losses.


Actually if  Turkey declared war on israel the protests in Syria will stop automatically . Do you really think those people are freedom fighters for equality and justice ? they are mostly Sunnis and Wahhabis(and that's why the haven't been so successful since they have alienated the Alevi and Christians ) and freedom for them means the freedom to grow a beard and to apply sharia law , and actually one of the critics of bashar's regime is that he was kinda of sluggish on retaking the Golan heights , so if a war on Israel was declared Syria's protests will calm down and a coordination with the Syrian army will be in place , also if such a war is declared the Arabs countries would be morally obliged to take place in it by popular demands , while the war scenario is very fictional for the time being but once it takes place it will be an all out war by every definition . also Turkey is already looking  for strategic alliance with


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## JH24 (Sep 5, 2011)

Let's just hope a war is not going to happen. Unless one of the two parties makes a mistake and shoots someone from the other side the chance of a war is minimal. Regardless if Turkey could hurt Israel or not, their standing in the western world will be completely ruined if they go to war with Israel, they'll have a lot to loose. 

For Israel it will be bad as well, because besides Turkey chances are Hamas and Hezbollah would start firing rockets as well, making this at the very least a three front war.


Everyone will loose if a war would erupt, and there would be very little to gain for all parties involved. It would only result in pain, fear and people dying.


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## hcheng02 (Sep 5, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> Israel impose a embargo to the region. As a State, it would be more difficult for Israel to impose this embargo (and then ease the tension with Turkey) and also easier for Israel to have an international support if they are attacked by the Palestinian State. If after be allowed to have a State, they still mess, they would not be supported. They couldn't be supported.



You are working under the assumption that international law actually operates based on things like truth, fairness, or justice. International law is none of these things - it has been and will always be a tool of state conflict - a weapon of war. The Arab world is at war with Israel and it will use international law as its weapon. If enough people say something long enough, it will become the truth in politics - facts don't matter.

Even if a Palestinian state is formed, there will be no increase in support for Israel. The Islamic and Arab world would never take Israel's side under any circumstances. Europe's opinion on Israel is frankly barely a step away from the Arab world. Both the Arabs and Europeans believe that Israel is a colonialist state and they will paint the Palestinians as the victims. If the Palestinians and Israel sign a peace accord tomorrow, and then the Palestinians launch an unprovoked wave of bombings that kill thousands of Israelis - the Palestinians need only claim that it is just due for their years of oppression and the Arab world would support it. Europe would also go along with it, because its ultimately a numbers game. The Arab world consists of many states, whereas Israel and its supporter USA only represent two states. Hence, the Europeans would only fulfill their role as representing the new world order if it sides with the faction that better represents world opinion. Since there are more states in the Arab and Muslim world, then obviously they represent world opinion better.


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## ThatsWhatIsLove (Sep 5, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> You are working under the assumption that international law actually operates based on things like truth, fairness, or justice. International law is none of these things - it has been and will always be a tool of state conflict - a weapon of war. The Arab world is at war with Israel and it will use international law as its weapon. If enough people say something long enough, it will become the truth in politics - facts don't matter.
> 
> Even if a Palestinian state is formed, there will be no increase in support for Israel. The Islamic and Arab world would never take Israel's side under any circumstances. Europe's opinion on Israel is frankly barely a step away from the Arab world. Both the Arabs and Europeans believe that *Israel is a colonialist state* and they will paint the Palestinians as the victims. If the Palestinians and Israel sign a peace accord tomorrow, and then the Palestinians launch an unprovoked wave of bombings that kill thousands of Israelis - the Palestinians need only claim that it is just due for their years of oppression and the Arab world would support it. Europe would also go along with it, because its ultimately a numbers game. The Arab world consists of many states, whereas Israel and its supporter USA only represent two states. Hence, the Europeans would only fulfill their role as representing the new world order if it sides with the faction that better represents world opinion. Since there are more states in the Arab and Muslim world, then obviously they represent world opinion better.



But Israel is a colonial state. They shouldn't be there, I mean really whos bright idea was it to give the Jews a country right in the heart of muslim world?

This whole situation is like a school bully taking a kids money every day (Israel) and then crying foul play when the kid punches him in the face or kicks him in the balls (Palestine). Israel are the invaders it's just been to many decades now that the majority of people forget that / don't even care.


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## Kanali (Sep 5, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> But Israel is a colonial state. They shouldn't be there, I mean really whos bright idea was it to give the Jews a country right in the heart of muslim world?
> 
> This whole situation is like a school bully taking a kids money every day (Israel) and then crying foul play when the kid punches him in the face or kicks him in the balls (Palestine). Israel are the invaders it's just been to many decades now that the majority of people forget that / don't even care.



Except in this case the bully has nukes and the only way to deal with him without both parties getting expelled is to give him that hug his dad never gave him and become friends


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## Mael (Sep 5, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> But Israel is a colonial state. They shouldn't be there, I mean really whos bright idea was it to give the Jews a country right in the heart of muslim world?
> 
> This whole situation is like a school bully taking a kids money every day (Israel) and then crying foul play when the kid punches him in the face or kicks him in the balls (Palestine). Israel are the invaders it's just been to many decades now that the majority of people forget that / don't even care.



1. The UN.
2. Case you hadn't remembered, which I'm sure you hadn't, didn't the Arab world collectively launch an invasion pretty much near the creation of Israel itself?  Forgive their defensive mentality after that but it seems you also know precisely dick of geopolitics so I'll just assume you're going to write this off into another idealistic piece of shit repartee.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 5, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> Actually if  Turkey declared war on israel the protests in Syria will stop automatically . Do you really think those people are freedom fighters for equality and justice ? they are mostly Sunnis and Wahhabis(and that's why the haven't been so successful since they have alienated the Alevi and Christians ) and freedom for them means the freedom to grow a beard and to apply sharia law , and actually one of the critics of bashar's regime is that he was kinda of sluggish on retaking the Golan heights , so if a war on Israel was declared Syria's protests will calm down and a coordination with the Syrian army will be in place , also if such a war is declared the Arabs countries would be morally obliged to take place in it by popular demands , while the war scenario is very fictional for the time being but once it takes place it will be an all out war by every definition . also Turkey is already looking  for strategic alliance with



Not at all. While the protesters in Syria do hate us they have more important things to worry about right now. Moreover the opposition has stated that they're . And since the protesters only chance of success lies in Western support, being more passive for the time being is vital. It's not that the protesters like it, they certainly hate us. However we're not their problem and they've shown little concern with Israel (for instance, not burning Israeli flags in rallies, etc.). The fact that Assad is playing the anti-Israel card also isolates that political strategy for the opposition as well.

Egypt and Turkey have already been allies for decades. It's just hot air by the press. A good deal of the Egyptian Air Force's F-16's originated in Turkey, for instance. Egypt has already said they .

Do you really think Egypts military junta wants to cause more shit with Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, etc. at this vital and unstable time? Right. They don't care about Erdogan's tantrums .


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## hcheng02 (Sep 5, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> But Israel is a colonial state. They shouldn't be there, I mean really whos bright idea was it to give the Jews a country right in the heart of muslim world?
> 
> This whole situation is like a school bully taking a kids money every day (Israel) and then crying foul play when the kid punches him in the face or kicks him in the balls (Palestine). Israel are the invaders it's just been to many decades now that the majority of people forget that / don't even care.



The Jews have a longer history with the land and they had always had population in the area. Palestine was a backwards Ottoman province until Jewish immigration brought investment and infrastructure into the area. Arab population growth didn't kick in until the Jews started coming in. 

As for the school bully scenario, remember that the Arab collectively attacked Israel at its very birth. The Arabs had bigger and stronger armies as well as the world willing to sell its weapons while banning Israel from doing the same. If anything the Arabs are the bullies, and Israel is the scrawny little kid who they decided to pick on until they all got beat up because the victim was a martial arts expert. Then the bullies simply started whining to their parents and kept up a 60 + year grudge. Oh, and the bullies also started blaming the scrawny kid for them having bad grades and being unpopular with girls too.


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## Oil Can (Sep 5, 2011)

In this metaphor, who are the girls?


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 5, 2011)

Maybe actual women? They're treated like crap in muslim countries after all


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## Altron (Sep 5, 2011)

ThatsWhatIsLove said:


> But Israel is a colonial state. They shouldn't be there, I mean really whos bright idea was it to give the Jews a country right in the heart of muslim world?
> 
> This whole situation is like a school bully taking a kids money every day (Israel) and then crying foul play when the kid punches him in the face or kicks him in the balls (Palestine). Israel are the invaders it's just been to many decades now that the majority of people forget that / don't even care.


*1948 Arab–Israeli War, Yom Kipper War & Six Day War* say hello. Not to mention the fact that despite outnumbering and being better equipped, the Arab world still couldn't beat Israel even after launching a sneak attack on Israel during the Yom Kippur War when Israel was at its most vulnerable since all military personnel were off duty.


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## The Pink Ninja (Sep 5, 2011)

Erdogan isn't going to risk his ass by actually getting in a fire fight with Israel. This is all posing for the Muslim in the street which is pretty damn irresponsible and has brought down bigger men than him.

He either doesn't care about peace and is doing this for the ratings or he's an idiot and is blundering in there like all the other idiots who blunder in there. Probably the former but who knows, he's head of a religious party afterall. None of this is helping anyone but you know, Hamas and Islamic Jihad ect ect

As for fighting, on the off chance he was actually stupid enough to send Turkish military ships to Gaza he knows Israel can't lets anyone push them around which means those ships will be warned then boarded then attacked. Whether or not Turkey could take Israel in a fight, they won't. They'd gain nothing if they win and have a lot to lose.

NATO won't get involved because I doubt article five covers wandering into an active warzone. Even if it did, the USA won't attack Israel and without the USA NATO won't do anything. Without NATO Turkey is way vulnerable to various comboes, most notably Russia, Greece and Israel.



Le M?le Dominant said:


> All this mess could be solve if a Palestinian state is created.



A Palestinian state could only be created once most of the other problems are fixed.

It's like saying "There will be compromise once everyone thinks the same way as me."


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## Trias (Sep 5, 2011)

Hmm, let me elaborate a bit on Turkey vs Israel war situation. First of all, I'm a Turkishfag.

 Turkey is a powerhouse to its bordering regions, it contains the strongest economic power, strongest military and technology. But in a war situation with Israel, even without using any nuclear warheads (and probably, Israel wont even need to use them anyway) Israel will spank Turkey's ass like it's a rented mule.

 Except for 2000 Panthers positioned in western (greek-turkish) coastline, most of Turkey's primary battletanks are revisioned Abrams, most of them sold to Turkey during Gulf war, even with the revisions, they're definitely not a match to superior Israeli tanks, given we can even move them through Syrian territory. Most of Turkish personel are conscripts and their military training, as well as discipline and experience, is far inferior to those of Israeli's. And I'm not talking about just the privates, I'm also talking about the commanders. Two weeks ago a tape was leaked into media, former Chief Commander talking about how disorganized the commanders are. (Leakage is a direct result of Islamist factions trying to discredit secularist Army, but nonetheless, the point of records are true.) Apparently that's why Turkey cant even solve a small-time insurgency in their hands for 40 years, let alone matching a superior personel.

 As for naval and air superiority, I dont know for sure, but most of Turkish ships are obsolote compared to Israeli navy, and they dont even have number advantage at this point either. A few years ago I remember Israel having 550 assault helicopters for example, and I'll be happy if we even have 200 of them at the moment. Turkey has only recently been doing shit to manufacture its own stuff -and actually future battle tanks designs are quite promising, based on Korean K2 Black Panther, with some improvements, even. Same goes for navy as well, but at the moment, I hardly doubt Turkish navy may do a good job of fighting in the Mediterranean soil with Israeli navy.

 Nah, Israel more than capable of beating our ass without nuclear warheads, if we're on a offensive campaign that we cant support with our groundforce for a direct attack.

 And seriously, Arabs or Palestiniphilias in the forums, dont get wet dreams of Turkey beating Israeli asses with a slapstick. Our army is little different than that of North Korea's. If Turkey can't live with its butthurt pride, then only thing warring with Israeli will bring to Turkey is more dead Turkish young males, which we've been doing succesfully enough on our own lands for last 40 years anyway.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 5, 2011)

Trias said:


> Hmm, let me elaborate a bit on Turkey vs Israel war situation. First of all, I'm a Turkishfag.
> 
> Turkey is a powerhouse to its bordering regions, it contains the strongest economic power, strongest military and technology. But in a war situation with Israel, even without using any nuclear warheads (and probably, Israel wont even need to use them anyway) Israel will spank Turkey's ass like it's a rented mule.
> 
> Except for 2000 Panthers positioned in western (greek-turkish) coastline, most of *Turkey's primary battletanks are revisioned Abrams,* most of them sold to Turkey during Gulf war, even with the revisions, they're definitely not a match to superior Israeli tanks, given we can even move them through Syrian territory. Most of Turkish personel are conscripts and their military training, as well as discipline and experience, is far inferior to those of Israeli's. And I'm not talking about just the privates, I'm also talking about the commanders. Two weeks ago a tape was leaked into media, former Chief Commander talking about how disorganized the commanders are. (Leakage is a direct result of Islamist factions trying to discredit secularist Army, but nonetheless, the point of records are true.) Apparently that's why Turkey cant even solve a small-time insurgency in their hands for 40 years, let alone matching a superior personel.



Actually they're M60's, many of them upgraded by Israel ironically enough. They're a step below Abrams. However Israel only has about ~1,600 modern tanks itself (merkava series) while the remaining ~1,000 are also M60's.

According to my silly stats it pretty much goes as:
Turkey
-Tier 1 Tanks: 300 (Leopard 2A4)
-Tier 2 Tanks: 1,150 (400 Leopard 1A2/A3/A5, 100 M60 Sabra, 650 M60A1/A3/A5)
-Tier 3 Tanks: ~1,600 (M48's)

Israel
-Tier 1 Tanks: 1,600 (Merkava Mk.1/2/3/4)
-Tier 2 Tanks: ~1,040 (M60 Magach-6/7)
-Tier 3 Tanks: 890 (~200 M48 Magach-5, ~390 Sho't, ~300 captured Soviet T-54/T-62)




> As for naval and air superiority, I dont know for sure, but most of Turkish ships are obsolote compared to Israeli navy, and they dont even have number advantage at this point either. A few years ago I remember Israel having 550 assault helicopters for example, and I'll be happy if we even have 200 of them at the moment. Turkey has only recently been doing shit to manufacture its own stuff -and actually future battle tanks designs are quite promising, based on Korean K2 Black Panther, with some improvements, even. Same goes for navy as well, but at the moment, I hardly doubt Turkish navy may do a good job of fighting in the Mediterranean soil with Israeli navy.
> 
> Nah, Israel more than capable of beating our ass without nuclear warheads, if we're on a offensive campaign that we cant support with our groundforce for a direct attack.



Turkish navy is clearly vastly superior to Israel in terms of operational bluewater  capability (i.e. the ability to operate far from its shores). It has like 15 Frigates to Israel's 3. The problem is Turkey would have to be operating along the Israeli coastline, which would mean it'd run into not only the Israeli surface fleet of 3 Corvettes + 12 Missile Boats but also 5 Submarines (soon to be 6), all of which are modern AIP models that make them nigh-undetectable by modern ASW standards. That includes the American-made Sonar/ASW systems Turkey's navy operations. Capable of launching cruise missiles at an engagement distance much farther than Turkish Frigate engagement distance. 

And this problem with AIP Submarines isn't just a Turkish problem, nobody has a solution to them. Current ASW systems are based around Cold War-era detection of much nosier nuclear-powered subs. No navy in the world is bothering to counter the new generation of diesel/AIP Subs and no navy in the world could deal with them. Israel included, but fortunately for Israel it's the only navy in the region with such a sub fleet.

There's also additional problems besides the submarines. Namely the Israeli Air Force which has been training to take out American-made Frigates due to Egypt's aquisition of Perry Classes and also a coastal artillery network of mobile cruise missile launchers, mostly armed with Delilah-SB or Harpy kamikaze UAV's. 

Which is why I was going on about context/where the engagement is taking place before. We obviously couldn't conquer Turkey and on paper we're conventionally weaker. The problem is how Turkey would go about fighting Israel if it came to it, and how this naval escort theory would go badly for them just as it would go even worse for Israel if it tried to escort ships to the PKK in Turkey or whatever. We'd be blown out of the water and have little means of retaliating as well. 

As for attack choppers. We have 48 AH-64's, 60 AH-1's, and 5 Panther's plus some OH-6/OH-58's in reserve. Future acquisitions include 16 modified Blackhawks to attack gunships (AH-60 Battlehawk) and 10 more AH-64's. Well below 550. Turkey has 30 AH-1's with a future acquisition of ~100 Italian Mangustas. Only ones with 550 or over is the US. Reason America is hax.

In terms of air power Turkey has ~220 F-16's (many of which with Israeli systems, which would make them very vulnerable to Israeli Electronic Attacks), ~120 F-4's (again many with Israeli systems), and ~50 F-5's. Israel has ~320 F-16's and ~97 F-15's plus about 100 more F-4's/Kfir's/A-4's in emergency reserve. A big issue for Turkey would be electronic warfare, it's a huge part of Israeli warfare doctrine and if you're fighting the IAF you're pretty much facing hacking 24/7, be it through cyber means or airborne EW platforms such as the Eitam/Shavit/Kookiya EW aircraft. This requires very well-trained ground crews to wage a constant battle against hacking attacks during combat and for the aircraft themselves to have modern ECM capabilities. Turkey actually has at least the latter (not informed enough to say if they don't or do have the former),  but they're mostly Israeli ECM systems such as the Elta-2060,  which complicates things.

Really it goes Turkey having a better navy, Israel a better air force, and the two are more debatable in terms of army but it'd probably come down to Turkey if we're talking OBD-style "flat open field battle with no prep time or interference"). 



> And seriously, Arabs or Palestiniphilias in the forums, dont get wet dreams of Turkey beating Israeli asses with a slapstick. Our army is little different than that of North Korea's. If Turkey can't live with its butthurt pride, then only thing warring with Israeli will bring to Turkey is more dead Turkish young males, which we've been doing succesfully enough on our own lands for last 40 years anyway.



I think the fact that the majority of Turks would turn on Erdogan decided to start a war anyway, while I'm sure we're mostly reviled in Turkey they still don't want an all-out war. And until recently the Turkish military has been training alongside Israel constantly and the officer corps has consistently indicated its hostility to Erdogan's pan-Islamism and overtures to Syria at the expense of Israel.


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## hcheng02 (Sep 5, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Erdogan isn't going to risk his ass by actually getting in a fire fight with Israel. This is all posing for the Muslim in the street which is pretty damn irresponsible and has brought down bigger men than him.
> 
> He either doesn't care about peace and is doing this for the ratings or he's an idiot and is blundering in there like all the other idiots who blunder in there. Probably the former but who knows, he's head of a religious party afterall. None of this is helping anyone but you know, Hamas and Islamic Jihad ect ect
> 
> ...



Why would Russia join forces with Israel in a war against Turkey?


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## Mael (Sep 5, 2011)

I owe you rep, Trias.


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## Trias (Sep 5, 2011)

And I owe a rep to Megaharrison, for correcting many of my mistakes with stats. (I actually think he gets some little bit of sexual pleasure from those stats, but we love him that way anyway.) 

 Fuck me for confusing Leopard with Panther and m60 with Abrams, but anyway. Frankly I'm quite surprised, I mean I didnt have the stats but I thought Israel would have more than 3 frigates. I'd like to see the technological comparison of Turkish and Israeli navy tho -I'm fairly sure majority of those frigates are almost obsolete by now. (I mean what the fuck, I remember one that have been around since pre-WW2?)  As for assault helicopters, yeah fuck me, where did I get that. I mean, yeah, 550 is pretty crazy, but then again, we're talking about the guys who did Six Day War... whatever.

 And a war wont be taken lightly by any crowd, but you're underestimating power and authority Erdoğan's regime has taken control of. It's pretty much like Putin's Russia, to a smaller scale. Media completely is taken control of, many crucial goverment agencies privatized for almost funny prices, to "islamist" corporations, with police under complete control of Erdoğan regime and under orders to actively but subtly strengthen it... Yeah Army is not fond of Islamist regime, but a considerable amount of crowd (most of them would be completely okay with Israel being deleted off the world map) does. And Army cant do anything against it unless they do a Coup -and no one wishes that, except for the most hardcore Erdoğan haters. Plus, they've been battering Army for years now and with certain prosecutions and other things, they recently changed Chief of Army to a name that's "familar" with their ideology, after a series of resignations.

 And it really is not a matter of preferring Syria over Israel, Turkey has fucked up its relationships with Syria as well. In fact, they managed to fuck up every single one of them. We burnt every bridge we tried to build, Syria, Armenia, etc.

 I personally find it extremely funny that certain European political blocks that found Erdoğan a voice to be supported in early 2000s, are slowly changing their views as Erdoğan shows more and more of his radical views. Nah, state of Turkey I'd say, is something between Berlusconi's Italy and Putin's Russia. With some Islam sauce of course.

 But just dont expect that Army will weight heavier than the Erdoğan Regime. It wont, especially after latest resignations.

P.S: Fuck yeah CSM.


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## Mael (Sep 5, 2011)

^Ew, heretics.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 6, 2011)

Altron said:


> *1948 Arab?Israeli War, Yom Kipper War & Six Day War* say hello. Not to mention the fact that despite outnumbering and being better equipped, the Arab world still couldn't beat Israel even after launching a sneak attack on Israel during the Yom Kippur War when Israel was at its most vulnerable since all military personnel were off duty.



That was 1948, this is 2011. Israel failed in its invasion of Lebanon when they were confronted by Hezbollah soldiers trained in Iran. Turkey has the second largest military in NATO right after the US. Attacking Turkey would mean that Israel might have bigger concerns than Iran. 

Also did you know that an attack on the Turkish Navy (in international water), is an attack on NATO.


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## StaleMate (Sep 6, 2011)

Altron said:


> Nuclear tipped Jericho ICBM's say hello



Turkey is amongst the members of NATO that have access to US nukes, how much are you willing to bet that they won't use them if Israel decides to start a Nuclear war against them.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Also did you know that an attack on the Turkish Navy (in international water), is an attack on NATO.



Did you know that breaching a blockade is an act of war? The NATO doesn't support you in wars of aggression.



StaleMate said:


> Turkey is amongst the members of NATO that have access to US nukes, how much are you willing to bet that they won't use them if Israel decides to start a Nuclear war against them.



Having nukes stationed on your soil =/= Having access to nukes


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## Trias (Sep 6, 2011)

Turkey has 80 US nukes stationed in Incirlik, yet they'd literally have to fight US forces there in order to use them. Turkey does NOT control those nukes, in any way. And if you think that US will let them use nukes against Israel, oh well, lets say top echelons of US are not _that_ anti-semitic YET.

 Nato simply should not and can not and will not give a darn if Turkey tries to overrun a Blockade by military force and gets lit up in a designated Israeli war zone. That's like bombing China and calling out for NATO when one of your bombers is shot down.


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## JH24 (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> That was 1948, this is 2011. Israel failed in its invasion of Lebanon when they were confronted by Hezbollah soldiers trained in Iran. Turkey has the second largest military in NATO right after the US. Attacking Turkey would mean that Israel might have bigger concerns than Iran.
> 
> Also did you know that an attack on the Turkish Navy (in international water), is an attack on NATO.



You're underestimating Israel, they have one of the best and most experienced militaries in the world. If they're really going all out (and especially if they have nothing left to loose), very few would be able to stand up to them.

Also, a war between Turkey and Israel is not going to happen. Turkey can't attack Israel over land so their options are already limited. Any war would be pointless and a waste of resources unless Turkey or other Arab countries are aiming for the total conquest of Israel, which is not going to happen.


And there is still the USA. They are having money problems, that's true, but they still have the best military in the world and I doubt any US president can afford to stand aside when Israel is attacked. (They will support Israel with huge amount of supplies, weapons and munition. And no one would dare to attack the transports unless they  also want to declare war at the USA)


I don't think Israel wants to attack Turkey, a NATO member with (like you said) a huge military. Israel would definitely have problems when they would fire on a Turkish ship. But even then Turkey's options would still be limited. And I doubt they could wage a full scale war without the risk of the USA stepping inbetween.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 6, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Did you know that breaching a blockade is an act of war? The NATO doesn't support you in wars of aggression.



Did you know that blocking food and medicine from going into a country is against international law. The Turkish Navy could break it for humanitarian reasons the same way NATO attacked Ghadaffi in Libya. 





> Having nukes stationed on your soil =/= Having access to nukes



The US has trained members of the NATO nucleur weapons sharing agreement, how to deploy Nucleur weapons. They're allowed to use them in the case of a Nucleur attack.


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## The Pink Ninja (Sep 6, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Why would Russia join forces with Israel in a war against Turkey?



Because Russia has always wanted the Dardanelles and the Bosphorus.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Did you know that blocking food and medicine from going into a country is against international law. The Turkish Navy could break it for humanitarian reasons the same way NATO attacked Ghadaffi in Libya.



Good thing that Israel doesn't block food or medicine from going in then, isn't it?

How many people starve in Gaza every day? None. What about the humanitarian crisis there? It doesn't exist, according to the red cross.

Gaza is better off than most African countries and has a better standard of living than Egypt. Quit your whining over non-existent war crimes.



> The US has trained members of the NATO nucleur weapons sharing agreement, how to deploy Nucleur weapons. They're allowed to use them in the case of a Nucleur attack.



They're not allowed to use them in wars of aggression, period. And that is all it would be if Turkey starts a war with Israel by breaching its legal blockade of Gaza.


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## Mael (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Did you know that blocking food and medicine from going into a country is against international law. The Turkish Navy could break it for humanitarian reasons the same way NATO attacked Ghadaffi in Libya.
> 
> The US has trained members of the NATO nucleur weapons sharing agreement, how to deploy Nucleur weapons. They're allowed to use them in the case of a Nucleur attack.



This is pretty fucking stupid, even from you.

Look we all know it's fun to fap to Hamas videos and Schutzstaffel art, but this goes beyond that absurdity.  There is no clause I've ever read where the US would let Turkey of all NATO countries, with pro-Pali Erdo at the helm, use American nukes on Israel of all nations.  Matter of fact, the US would simply say that Erdo is reaping what he sowed.  Why would we waste a better relationship over your shitty ideology?

Please admit you know dick about geopolitics.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 6, 2011)

^
You guys fail to see the difference between a conventional war and a Nucleur war. If Turkey started a conventional war with Israel but Israel resulted to nukes, the US is obligated through treaties to protect its NATO allies. It doesn't have much of a choice that's the reason nuclear weapons are stored in Turkey, in the first place. If Israel is dumb enough to fire at Turkey, the Turkish military will take control over the US Nukes and fire back in self defense.


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## Mael (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> ^
> You guys fail to see the difference between a conventional war and a Nucleur war.* If Turkey started a conventional war with Israel but Israel resulted to nukes, the US is obligated through treaties to protect its NATO allies.* It doesn't have much of a choice that's the reason nuclear weapons are stored in Turkey, in the first place. If Israel is dumb enough to fire at Turkey, the Turkish military will take control over the US Nukes and fire back in self defense.



Yet you're failing to understand that Israel wouldn't fire first but more or less you're willing to bet they will which given your loyalties is already an unfair assumption.  Also, it's cute that you really think that if Turkey *started* a war with Israel that the US would actually abide by that shit.  But I love that.  I love how you first say if Turkey started a war and then finish off with if Israel is dumb enough to fire at Turkey.  So...by your logic, Turkey has carte blanche over any military operation and Israel is forced to be on both knees?  Brilliant.  Israel has proven its worth to the US many a time and in terms of military tech and prowess is only on the up.  Think smarter, not harder, kiddo.

For your sake, I hope Israel lasts two thousand years.  I ain't even Jewish or find any real loyalty to Israel, but I recognize the lesser of two evils when I see it.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> ^
> You guys fail to see the difference between a conventional war and a Nucleur war. If Turkey started a conventional war with Israel but Israel resulted to nukes, the US is obligated through treaties to protect its NATO allies. It doesn't have much of a choice that's the reason nuclear weapons are stored in Turkey, in the first place.



Please quote the part of the NATO charter that says any member is obligated to help another member in a war of aggression (nuclear or otherwise).



> If Israel is dumb enough to fire at Turkey, the Turkish military will take control over the US Nukes and fire back in self defense.



How would they go about doing something like that? Do you think all you need to do is stroll into the NATO base and press a big, red button? Also, please look up the word "self-defense" I assure you that when you attack someone unprovoked, none of your actions afterwards will qualify as self-defense.

That being said, Israel wouldn't use their nukes unless there's a serious threat to its existence (which Turkey's navy and air force obviously aren't).


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## JH24 (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> ^
> You guys fail to see the difference between a conventional war and a Nucleur war. If Turkey started a conventional war with Israel but Israel resulted to nukes, the US is obligated through treaties to protect its NATO allies. It doesn't have much of a choice that's the reason nuclear weapons are stored in Turkey, in the first place. If Israel is dumb enough to fire at Turkey, the Turkish military will take control over the US Nukes and fire back in self defense.



I'm sorry, but this is too much. It almost seems if you want a war to happen. 

Israel is not going to fire its nukes, if they would strike first the whole world opinion would turn against them. With all due respect, this kind of scenario isn't even realistic.


Also, Turkey is not in a position to push Israel to the point they would even consider looking at their nukes. But if it would happen (just an example) America would step in to help Israel, so the chance of Israel using its nukes still won't be an issue. 

Nukes are meant as a last chance resort when all else fails, if there's nothing else to fall back on, they aren't meant to be used in conventional warfare.


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## Mael (Sep 6, 2011)

JH24 said:


> I'm sorry, but this is a bit too much. It almost seems if you want a war to happen.
> 
> Israel is not going to fire its nukes, if they would strike first the whole world opinion would turn against them. With all due respect, this kind of scenarios isn't even realistic.
> 
> ...



This kid really wants a war...that's how much he stupidly hates Israel.  I want to see his dreams dashed just so he can cry some more.


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## JH24 (Sep 6, 2011)

Mael said:


> This kid really wants a war...that's how much he stupidly hates Israel.  I want to see his dreams dashed just so he can cry some more.




Yeah, I also get that feeling.


I'm no fan of the government of Israel (and definitely not of Hamas), but I have nothing against the Israelis, the state of Israel, the Palestinians or a Palestinian state itself. It's just that the whole conflict gives me a feeling of hopelessness.

I would love to see both Israelis and Palestinians living in peace and prosperity together, but I'm afraid we won't be seeing this in our lifetimes if the conflict keeps going like this. I remember when I was 15 we had our first real history discussion about Israel/Palestine in our class. Tensions flared so much between pro- and anti-israel debaters our teacher had to step in to pull some classmates away from each other because they started hitting each other. I never forget that moment.


And then there's the internet. Sometimes I visit other forums or read comments underneath articles, and the amount of hate and negativity towards Israel is amazing. So much hate can't be a healthy thing, right? There are many conflicts and injustices in the world, why is it always the Israeli/Palestinian confllict that draws the most attention?


Why no positive discussions about possible solutions to the conflict? It's always the same negative spiral time and time again.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 6, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> That was 1948, this is 2011. Israel failed in its invasion of Lebanon when they were confronted by Hezbollah soldiers trained in Iran. Turkey has the second largest military in NATO right after the US. Attacking Turkey would mean that Israel might have bigger concerns than Iran.



The issue isn't Israel attacking Turkey, the issue is Turkey attacking Israel. Again, you people aren't addressing the military realities I've laid forth. 



> Also did you know that an attack on the Turkish Navy (in international water), is an attack on NATO.



Again, the rest of NATO won't get involved in a Turkish provocation. Do you really think Portugal is going to go to war against Israel because Turkey decided to start shit? Right. Not only do any NATO members not want a war of any kind right now due to the economic/political situation, they sure as hell wouldn't want one against Israel, which would be one of the bloodiest wars since Korea at the very least and a war which had no tangible benefits besides defending Erdogan's temper tantrum.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 6, 2011)

People are giving Israel way too much credit. They haven't faced an army in more than 20 years and even camel jockeys with no training give them headaches (Lebanon)


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## Nemesis (Sep 6, 2011)

IF that is so then camel hearders in the South East of Turkey gives Turkey major migraines borderline brain tumours.

Lebanon while maybe a propergander victory for Hez was a military total victory for Israel.  Going so far as the Hezbollah leaders saying it was stupid for his group to start the war in the first place.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 6, 2011)

^Camel herders backed and trained by Europe :/


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## hcheng02 (Sep 6, 2011)

Why do people think that NATO will step in to help Turkey if it starts shit with Israel? It won't happen. First of all, look at the USA invasion of Iraq. NATO didn't step in because it didn't want to get involved. Second of all, there is no way the US will get in a war with Israel. Notwithstanding the fact that the US public is sick of interventions after 3 wars, its simply political suicide considering how pro-Israel the US public is. And as Libya has shown, the rest of NATO does not amount to much if the US does not get involved.


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## Keile (Sep 7, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Good thing that Israel doesn't block food or medicine from going in then, isn't it?



Yes, actually, Israel does block food and medicine - but that's not all. It also blocks wheelchairs, building supplies, toys, as well as just about anything else arbitrary and nonsensical you can think of that doesn't have squat to do with weapons. Indeed, depending on the time of day in question and the IDF official in charge, one can find their electricity and/or water shut off  - and turned back on again after a routine change of guard. 

Now some will say Israel isn't obligated to give the Palestinians access to working lights or running water, but given Israel is responsible for obliterating Gaza's civilian energy infrastructure, as well as inhibiting efforts to rehabilitate it, the absurdity of asserting the Jewish guard has no responsibility in providing for the Gazan people reveals itself. 



> How many people starve in Gaza every day? None. What about the humanitarian crisis there? It doesn't exist, according to the red cross.



Mass amounts of people don't have to starve or die for Israel to be guilty of breaking international law. This is a non-sequitor - and a wicked one at that. 

To be honest, the only thing that has to be proved is "collective punishment" imposed, which again is evidenced by the incomprehensible methods through which Israel uses to pray upon innocent women and children, under the holy grail pretense of protecting its sovereignty and right to exist. 



> Gaza is better off than most African countries and has a better standard of living than Egypt. Quit your whining over non-existent war crimes.



The issue is whether or not Israel's policies collectively punish the wider people for the actions of a few in an effort to catalyze political changes. It undeniably does, as deprivation of electricity and water and wheelchairs and toys have everything to do with punishing normal people, and little specifically to do with targeting terrorists.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 7, 2011)

Keile said:


> Yes, actually, Israel does block food and medicine and building supplies and wheelchairs and toys from going in, depending on the day of the week ("Tuesday") and whether the responsible IDF officials enjoyed a good breakfast that morning ("Horrible").
> 
> That is to say Israel arbitrarily imposes undue hardship on Palestinians, rather than terrorists, through food and development rationing.


They don't block food and medicine, they search everything that comes in for weapons. 

It is NOT arbitrary considering how many rocket attacks there are against Israel from Gaza. 

Or do you go as far to deny that Gaza is actively attacking Israel.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 7, 2011)

Keile said:


> Yes, actually, Israel does block food and medicine - but that's not all. It also blocks wheelchairs, building supplies, toys, as well as just about anything else arbitrary and nonsensical you can think of that doesn't have squat to do with weapons. Indeed, depending on the time of day in question and the IDF official in charge, one can find their electricity and/or water shut off  - and turned back on again after a routine change of guard.



We can not actually ban any of these things going into Gaza due to Gaza's geography. 

Moreover there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza according to the Red Cross and according to a UN committee the blockade is perfectly legal. Sorry. 



> Now some will say Israel isn't obligated to give the Palestinians access to working lights or running water, but given Israel is responsible for obliterating Gaza's civilian energy infrastructure, as well as inhibiting efforts to rehabilitate it, the absurdity of asserting the Jewish guard has no responsibility in providing for the Gazan people reveals itself.



We have no obligation to aid an enemy state that fires rockets at us on a daily basis. I'm sorry, but what you're saying basically has no precedent in all of human history: namely, one country is responsible for the wellbeing of other despite a state of war.

We still aid Gaza despite the war though, it's truly incredible. 





> Mass amounts of people don't have to starve or die for Israel to be guilty of breaking international law. This is a non-sequitor - and a wicked one at that.
> 
> To be honest, the only thing that has to be proved is "collective punishment" imposed, which again is evidenced by the incomprehensible methods through which Israel uses to pray upon innocent women and children, under the holy grail pretense of protecting its sovereignty and right to exist.
> 
> The issue is whether or not Israel's policies collectively punish the wider people for the actions of a few in an effort to catalyze political changes. It undeniably does, as deprivation of electricity and water and wheelchairs and toys have everything to do with punishing normal people, and little specifically to do with targeting terrorists.




Starvation isn't some very hard thing to induce, it's a very real and easily produced problem that affects millions worldwide and is present in dozens upon dozens upon dozens of countries. Gaza doesn't even approach to having this problem though, indicating how little of a crisis there is. Again, the Red Cross, probably one of the best sources in the world for such things, has said there's no humanitarian crisis. 

And we aren't breaking international law. The blockade is legal, there's no crisis. Moreover even if we wanted to do what you said, we would not be able to due to basic geography.


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## Keile (Sep 7, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> They don't block food and medicine, they search everything that comes in for weapons.



Israel has never, at least presumably, blocked all food and medicine and I never said it did, but in January 2010 Israel's government admitted, in a moment of coerced candor, to [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8654337.stm] blocking some food while allowing others into Gaza.[/url] 

This administrative admission in and of itself invalidates half of your assertion and reinforces half of my own, but at the time it really didn't go far enough in revealing the extent of the bans. Questions still remain, like what exact foods and household items does Israel ban, how much of these in total does Israel confiscate (estimates say 75%), and 

For further reference,  complied by the BBC of food and household items, including toothbrushes and shoes and juice, that hitherto April 2010 were presumably banned by Israel for import. 

Please tell me how banning sugar will affect terrorism in the region now and forever, and further, in light of any disconnection between the two ideas of sugar and rockets, what such a sugar banning policy is logically meant to achieve?  



> It is NOT arbitrary considering how many rocket attacks there are against Israel from Gaza.



A good way to stop terrorist activity is to regulate weapons, catch terrorists and defuse propaganda, not to maintain Gaza's economy at the "brink of collapse without quite pushing it over the edge", like Israeli officials told US diplomatic counterparts was the aim of the blockade in 2008. 

Banning food has nothing to do at all with rocket attacks on Israel, even assuming it is at war with Gaza - because at face what Israel is doing sounds illegal. If what Israel wishes to do is crush civilians as well as target enemy militants, then it should just say that.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 7, 2011)

Keile said:


> Israel has never, at least presumably, blocked all food and medicine and I never said it did, but in January 2010 Israel's government admitted, in a moment of coerced candor, to , like Israeli officials told US diplomatic counterparts was the aim of the blockade in 2008.
> 
> Banning food has nothing to do at all with rocket attacks on Israel, even assuming it is at war with Gaza - because at face what Israel is doing sounds illegal. If what Israel wishes to do is crush civilians as well as target enemy militants, then it should just say that.



So you dislike the methods by which Israel goes about regulating weapons? You feel they go too far and should be more relaxed on what they allow to be imported to an area that is actively attacking them with rocket fire?

I don't have much sympathy for you here, they haven't banned food. The food gets passed through as we have discussed before. 

That some items look suspicious and therefore blocked is not a policy of restricting certain types of food but suspicious packages. AKA something label as food but is instead something else.


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## CrazyMoronX (Sep 7, 2011)

So they're shipping their AIDs off to another country? That's tragic.


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## Trias (Sep 8, 2011)

Is it just me or mods, with exceptions, have become quite anti semitic since last time I was here? I kinda get that vibe... Is Jello still around? She'd be proud.

Edit: Actually I went to another thread and, what the fuck, either half of the cafe is now mods or green name thing indicates something different now.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 8, 2011)

Erdogan has confirmed he plans to do this now:



The issue now is what the Turkish military will do with his warmongering. Erdogan's starting a new Cuban Missile Crisis in the Mediterranean. By this point it's clear that he is out of his mind and mentally unstable.

He also says he is going to take steps to "stop Israel from exploiting Mediterranean resources" (aka make moves on Cypriot/Israeli natural gas in their territorial waters) and admitted already his recent "sanctions" against Israel has cost Turkey $200 million, but that's alright as at least he still has his pride.


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## Bleach (Sep 8, 2011)

World sucking Israeili nuts.

Nice


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## xenopyre (Sep 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Erdogan has confirmed he plans to do this now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what will be Israel's policy to deal with this ? will it fire at the battleships ? also Lebanon have as much claim to the Tamar gas field as Israel .


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## Megaharrison (Sep 8, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> So what will be Israel's policy to deal with this ? will it fire at the battleships ?



First off we need to take legal action against Turkey as our blockade has been declared legal and the UN has declared past flotillas needless provocations. NATO also needs to act decisive here to avoid a regional war and threaten harsh actions against Turkey, including expelling them from NATO. And before you say "ZOMG IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM", Erdogan will try to rope you into his war with article 5. 

Everyone in the region will be trying to stop Erdogan though, even countries that don't like us. US, NATO, the EU, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, probably even Syria as Assad doesn't want to be drawn into this right now. There's also the issue of the Turks themselves, they must stand up to Erdogan and force him to not drag his country into war. Hopefully under such pressure, cooler heads will prevail and Erdogan can get the help he needs. 

But if Erdogan is determined to have his war, we have no choice but to attack and/or disable the ships, we can't have an enemy state bringing convoys to a state we're at war with and it'd set a precedent for other enemy states to do the same. Our blockade is legal according to the UN and this is nothing but an act of war. 



> also Lebanon have as much claim to the Tamar gas field as Israel .



Lol, no. It falls within our exclusive economic zone. Just look to where Tamar is relation to Israel vs. Lebanon



If Lebanon wants another war over this then so be it. The Lebo's do this over every gas field we discover. We're in a state of war with Lebanon right now and will not listen to anything they say. If they make peace then maybe there's something to discuss.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 8, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> So what will be Israel's policy to deal with this ? will it fire at the battleships ? also Lebanon have as much claim to the Tamar gas field as Israel .





Here is a map, draw the line of economic waters that you think gives them "as much claim"


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## Jin-E (Sep 8, 2011)

Ok....this has long since passed the treshold of what constitutes realpolitik, even if Erdo is partially doing this to suck up to the Arabs. 

This will probably also reflect badly on the US-Turkey relations. I wouldnt be surprised if the US congress recognize the Armenian genocide within a few months.


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## xenopyre (Sep 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> First off we need to take legal action against Turkey as our blockade has been declared legal and the UN has declared past flotillas needless provocations. NATO also needs to act decisive here to avoid a regional war and threaten harsh actions against Turkey, including expelling them from NATO. And before you say "ZOMG IT'S NOT OUR PROBLEM", Erdogan will try to rope you into his war with article 5.
> 
> Everyone in the region will be trying to stop Erdogan though, even countries that don't like us. US, NATO, the EU, Egypt, Saudi Arabia, probably even Syria as Assad doesn't want to be drawn into this right now. There's also the issue of the Turks themselves, they must stand up to Erdogan and force him to not drag his country into war. Hopefully under such pressure, cooler heads will prevail and Erdogan can get the help he needs.
> 
> But if Erdogan is determined to have his war, we have no choice but to attack and/or disable the ships, we can't have an enemy state bringing convoys to a state we're at war with and it'd set a precedent for other enemy states to do the same. Our blockade is legal according to the UN and this is nothing but an act of war.


I'm not sure if Egypt will do something like that with the volatile situation that is we will see with Erdo next trip to Egypt , I personaly hope that there won't be a war or conflict the Arab countries aren't ready for that yet , also I think Nato didn't comment on this yet and its realtion with turkey seems good for the moment 




> Lol, no. It falls within our exclusive economic zone. Just look to where Tamar is relation to Israel vs. Lebanon    If Lebanon wants another war over this then so be it. The Lebo's do this over every gas field we discover. We're in a state of war with Lebanon right now and will not listen to anything they say. If they make peace then maybe there's something to discuss.





IMO this where Turkey will come in they want the gas and so do Lebanon so they would most likely collaborate to drill .


sadated_peon said:


> Here is a map, draw the line of economic waters that you think gives them "as much claim"



By Tamar i meant the reserves of the field not the specific Tamar1 field , since that's what they called it on aljazeera ,


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 8, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> Ok....this has long since passed the treshold of what constitutes realpolitik, even if Erdo is partially doing this to suck up to the Arabs.



Erdogan is the opposite of realpolitik, his foreign policy is completely motivated by emotion/Islamist ideology and by this point I think childish tantrums that produce dangerous results. It's to the point now where he's more damaging to the region then Assad. 

You can have close relations to both Israel and the Arabs at the same time. US, Germany, Italy, Netherlands, South Korea, Ukraine, India say hi. It's why all of this is unnecessary, every pragmatic leader knows relations with the Arab world are unaffected by those with Israel. Was Turkey ever having a difficult relationship with the Arab world because of its relationship to Israel in the past? Nope.



			
				xenopyre said:
			
		

> http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition...srael-1.372377
> By Tamar i meant the reserves of the fiels not the specific Tamar1 field , since that's what they called it on aljazeera



Da-Nile's not just a river in Egypt basically. Al Jazeera claims a lot of things. The specific Tamar field where drilling is going to occur is within our territorial waters. If any fall into Lebanon's then they can have at it.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 8, 2011)

xenopyre said:


> By Tamar i meant the reserves of the field not the specific Tamar1 field , since that's what they called it on aljazeera ,



By Tamar, you didn't mean Tamar, and to prove this you quote an article that states

"The Lebanese proposal *does not include the large Tamar and Leviathan gas prospects*, operated by Delek Energy and U.S. company Noble Energy. But the National Infrastructure Ministry found that the proposal contains reserves with a potential value in the billions of dollars."

How in the fuck do you think that an article which STATES that the even the lebanon's own economic border drawing does not include the Tamar fields goes toward your point?!?!

-

Look you really need to start looking into positions instead of some knee jerk "death to Israel" BS every time topic comes up.


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## Nemesis (Sep 8, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Here is a map, draw the line of economic waters that you think gives them "as much claim"



Small question but why is the Israel/Lebanon sea border not following the E-W land border they have.  Does it have anything to do with the Egypt/Israel border?

Granted these fields are in Israel (and I bet if Lebanon had the will to look there would be lots in their waters too) and Israel has every right to mine or sell the rights to mine to who ever they want.  Just the sea border direction seems odd.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 8, 2011)

Nemesis said:


> Small question but why is the Israel/Lebanon sea border not following the E-W land border they have.  Does it have anything to do with the Egypt/Israel border?
> 
> Granted these fields are in Israel (and I bet if Lebanon had the will to look there would be lots in their waters too) and Israel has every right to mine or sell the rights to mine to who ever they want.  Just the sea border direction seems odd.



It would not follow east west, it would go perpendicular to the land.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 8, 2011)

Jin-E said:


> This will probably also reflect badly on the US-Turkey relations. I wouldnt be surprised if the US congress recognize the Armenian genocide within a few months.



Looks like God won't be the only fictional thing that the Congress will recognize


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## Oil Can (Sep 8, 2011)

^
You don't believe in God?


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## Nemesis (Sep 9, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Looks like God won't be the only fictional thing that the Congress will recognize



Only fictional if you ignore the historical evidence and the countless dead.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 9, 2011)

> *Erdogan: Turkish navy to protect Gaza aid*
> Turkish prime minister says he is ready to deploy warships to accompany Gaza-bound vessels delivering humanitarian aid.



I can't wait for the action to start. This is going to make Israel's defeat  at the hands of Hezbollah (in 2006) feel like getting eliminated from a sporting event, by comparison.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I can't wait for the action to start. This is going to make Israel's defeat  at the hands of Hezbollah (in 2006) feel like getting eliminated from a sporting event, by comparison.



The anti-Israel crowd always comes off as such warmongerers. 

Yeah, I can't wait for a war between two major military powers one of which has nuclear weapons either. Everybody knows how awesome war is.


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## Mael (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I can't wait for the action to start. This is going to make Israel's defeat  at the hands of Hezbollah (in 2006) feel like getting eliminated from a sporting event, by comparison.



You're in for a disappointment, kiddo.

I mean your logic is already fucking idiotic, but this is going to be the icing on the cake.  It's so nice to see your hatred of this place reach near Nazism levels, but what'll be even funnier is the watching of your b'awwwing when either Turkey gets a slap or nothing actually happens to Israel.  But it's cool, you endorse kidnapping of IDF and rocket attacks on civilians in Sderot.  Nice to know you ally with intentional civilian-killers.

I wonder if you ever catch the irony in your idiocy.


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## JH24 (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I can't wait for the action to start. This is going to make Israel's defeat  at the hands of Hezbollah (in 2006) feel like getting eliminated from a sporting event, by comparison.




Okay, normally I'm a pretty calm person, but this comment made me angry.

You are an idiot. How can any person wish for a war like that? The only thing this will lead to are people dying and you say "that you can't wait for the action to start?"


This isn't some kind of game, you know.


----------



## Mael (Sep 9, 2011)

JH24 said:


> Okay, normally I'm a pretty calm person, but this comment made me angry.
> 
> You are an idiot. How can any person wish for a war like that? The only thing this will lead to are people dying and you say "that you can't wait for the action to start?"
> 
> ...



The anti-Israel crowd isn't exactly know for its sense of reason or intelligence.

Sage is either a troll or just plain hypocritical.

It's going to be fun watching Turkey either puss out or take a punch to the face.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 9, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> The anti-Israel crowd always comes off as such warmongerers.
> 
> Yeah, I can't wait for a war between two major military powers one of which has nuclear weapons either. Everybody knows how awesome war is.



ever heard of the saying: "The weapon doesn't make the man". Israeli soldiers are all big pussies, they didn't sign up to fight advanced millitaries like Turkey's. They're only trained to massacre Palestinian civilians and fight those who try to hang on to their property. Most of their soldiers would flee at the sight of danger. 

Israel wouldn't dare use Nucleur weapons against Turkey. Especially since the US has milltary bases on Turkish soil. Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Belgium have all trained their Air force how to deliver American nukes. Turkey has roughly 90 B61 NATO allocated nuclear weapons, in the direct possession of the Turkish Air Force stored under Turkeys Incerlik Air Force base. Neither side would test each other in the nuclear department because it would be suicide for both. these weapons are guarded by American soldiers but are to be activated during a Nuclear attack upon any of these 5 states.


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## Mael (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> ^
> ever heard of the saying: "The weapon doesn't make the man". Israeli soldiers are all big pussies, they didn't sign up to fight advanced millitaries like Turkey's.
> 
> Israel wouldn't dare use Nucleur weapons against Turkey. Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Belgium have all trained their Air force how to deliver American nukes. Turkey has roughly 90 B61 NATO allocated nuclear weapons, in the direct possession of the Turkish Air Force stored under Turkeys Incerlik Air Force base. Neither side would test each other in the nuclear department because it would be suicide for both. these weapons are guarded by American soldiers but are to be activated during a Nuclear attack upon any of these 5 states.



Again you display your stupidity and inability to grasp geopolitics.  In the grand scheme of things, the US DOES NOT give a darn about Turkey's NATO inclusion in comparison to Israel's worth.  Also, where in your misbegotten mind do you really convince yourself that the US would simply let Turkey have access to nuke another ally?  Where and why would Israel resort to that so soon?  



> *They're only trained to massacre Palestinian civilians and fight those who try to hang on to their property. Most of their soldiers would flee at the sight of danger. *



You're out of your fucking mind, bordering on retardation if not already retarded.  Get out.  Get the fuck out and take your idiotic Hamas-apologist ass with you.

You're either an Arab troll or some American/Westerner who thinks after reading a blog knows what the fuck he's talking about.  Get the fuck out.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 9, 2011)

The question is if the Turkish military is willing to risk ships and soldiers over Erdogan's temper tantrum.


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## zuul (Sep 9, 2011)

Pissing off the Government of Israel must be damn funny. 

I can perfectly picture Erdogan making the troll face.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 9, 2011)

Mael said:


> Again you display your stupidity and inability to grasp geopolitics.  In the grand scheme of things, the US DOES NOT give a darn about Turkey's NATO inclusion in comparison to Israel's worth.  Also, where in your misbegotten mind do you really convince yourself that the US would simply let Turkey have access to nuke another ally?  Where and why would Israel resort to that so soon?



Israel won't be using them since the US has millitary bases on Turkish soil. The turkish air force itself is trained how to deliver nukes so if the US has a change of heart which it can't (according to NATO ploicies attack one you attack all i.e nuke one you nuke all) the Turkish Airforce would deliver them anyway. 





> You're out of your fucking mind, bordering on retardation if not already retarded.  Get out.  Get the fuck out and take your idiotic Hamas-apologist ass with you.
> 
> You're either an Arab troll or some American/Westerner who thinks after reading a blog knows what the fuck he's talking about.  Get the fuck out.



Erdogan has announced additional sanctions against Israel, to which he referred to as a *"spoiled child"*

spoken by a wise man


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## JH24 (Sep 9, 2011)

Mael said:


> The anti-Israel crowd isn't exactly know for its sense of reason or intelligence.
> 
> Sage is either a troll or just plain hypocritical.
> 
> It's going to be fun watching Turkey either puss out or take a punch to the face.




Yeah, I actually hope he's trolling because it would be pretty sad if he actually believed all of this.



SagemodePrinz said:


> ever heard of the saying: "The weapon doesn't make the man". Israeli soldiers are all big pussies, they didn't sign up to fight advanced millitaries like Turkey's. They're only trained to massacre Palestinian civilians and fight those who try to hang on to their property. Most of their soldiers would flee at the sight of danger.
> 
> Israel wouldn't dare use Nucleur weapons against Turkey. Especially since the US has milltary bases on Turkish soil. Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Belgium have all trained their Air force how to deliver American nukes. Turkey has roughly 90 B61 NATO allocated nuclear weapons, in the direct possession of the Turkish Air Force stored under Turkeys Incerlik Air Force base. Neither side would test each other in the nuclear department because it would be suicide for both. these weapons are guarded by American soldiers but are to be activated during a Nuclear attack upon any of these 5 states.




Oh, please stop already! Do you actually believe all this stuff you're posting? You live in your own dream world, and it's only making you write nonsense. Get a grasp of reality, you're just embarassing yourself now.


----------



## Mael (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Erdogan has announced additional sanctions against Israel, to which he referred to as a *"spoiled child"*
> 
> spoken by a wise man



Wow...you're serious.  Just when I was optimistic of mankind...


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Israel won't be using them since the US has millitary bases on Turkish soil. The turkish air force itself is trained how to deliver nukes so if the US has a change of heart which it can't (according to NATO ploicies attack one you attack all i.e nuke one you nuke all) the Turkish Airforce would deliver them anyway.



Where in the North Atlantic Treaty does it say that? Please, quote it, cite your sources. I've looked over it and nowhere does it say that any member state is obligated to help another member state in a war of aggression.



zuul said:


> Pissing off the Government of Israel must be damn funny.
> 
> I can perfectly picture Erdogan making the troll face.



I assure you that any Turk with half a brain is way more pissed at this than Israel, especially the military.


----------



## Mael (Sep 9, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Where in the North Atlantic Treaty does it say that? Please, quote it, cite your sources. I've looked over it and nowhere does it say that any member state is obligated to help another member state in a war of aggression.



He can't do that because he's either a troll or just plain retarded.


----------



## hcheng02 (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Israel won't be using them since the US has millitary bases on Turkish soil. The turkish air force itself is trained how to deliver nukes so if the US has a change of heart which it can't (according to NATO ploicies attack one you attack all i.e nuke one you nuke all) the Turkish Airforce would deliver them anyway.



NATO isn't obligated to come to your aid if you start shit on your own that your allies don't agree with. Look at Iraq for a recent example.



> Erdogan has announced additional sanctions against Israel, to which he referred to as a *"spoiled child"*
> 
> spoken by a wise man



Erdrogan is simply trying to salvage his Muslim street rep which is in tatters ever since he was shown to be butt buddies with guys like Gaddafi and Assad. If he was a wise man he would have supported the revolutionaries or dumped Assad.

And LOL for thinking that the IDF would flee before Turkey. If you have any basic knowledge of Israel's history, you would know that they are no stranger to fighting against advanced armies.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 9, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Where in the North Atlantic Treaty does it say that? Please, quote it, cite your sources. I've looked over it and nowhere does it say that any member state is obligated to help another member state in a war of aggression.



*Article 5 *

The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> *5 Article *
> 
> The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.



As I said, nothing about helping in wars of aggression. If Turkey attacks first by breaking Israel's blockade, they're on their own. Not to mention Turkey would be starting the war outside of Europe, so article 5 wouldn't to relevant anyway.


----------



## Helios (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> *Article 5 *
> 
> The Parties agree that an armed *attack against* one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.



Israel will act on self defence which is absolutely legal.So leave NATO out of this.

Article 5 has been activated only once.The ratio of the article is parallel to the general idea that serves as the foundation of the structure,a defensive mechanism.The context is not to be considered as a way so that every member can use NATO as a mean to expand its territorial or geopolitical interests.


----------



## Coteaz (Sep 9, 2011)

zuul said:


> Pissing off the Government of Israel must be damn funny.
> 
> I can perfectly picture Erdogan making the troll face.


Yeah, I bet Turkey is laughing it up about losing a strong political, economic, and military ally in the region.


----------



## sadated_peon (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Israel won't be using them since the US has millitary bases on Turkish soil. The turkish air force itself is trained how to deliver nukes so if the US has a change of heart which it can't (according to NATO ploicies attack one you attack all i.e nuke one you nuke all) the Turkish Airforce would deliver them anyway.



Yes, by all means, grab those nukes... throw them on a plane and drop them on Israel. 

And they will make a nice *thunk* noise when they hit the ground, 

because considering that you need the U.S. to ARM the nuke, they are just large paper weights. 
The best that the Turks to try and hope for is to try and hotwire them themselves to arm the nukes, which is more than likely just going to end up with them blowing themselves up.

*oh and trying to steal and hotwire a U.S. nuke would be consider an act of war against the United States. Have fun with that turkey.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> *Article 5 *
> 
> The Parties agree that an armed attack against one or more of them in Europe or North America shall be considered an attack against them all and consequently they agree that, if such an armed attack occurs, each of them, in exercise of the right of individual or collective self-defence recognised by Article 51 of the Charter of the United Nations, will assist the Party or Parties so attacked by taking forthwith, individually and in concert with the other Parties, such action as it deems necessary, including the use of armed force, to restore and maintain the security of the North Atlantic area.



Considering the Following

Vietnam
Iraq
British involvement in Malaysia and the Malaysia/Indonesia war

All involved NATO members going outside their own nations to fight a war and none involved NATO involvement then you can see that NATO is not going to follow turkey into a stupid war with israel if Turkey decides to be stupid.


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 9, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> ever heard of the saying: "The weapon doesn't make the man". Israeli soldiers are all big pussies, they didn't sign up to fight advanced millitaries like Turkey's. They're only trained to massacre Palestinian civilians and fight those who try to hang on to their property. Most of their soldiers would flee at the sight of danger.
> 
> Israel wouldn't dare use Nucleur weapons against Turkey. Especially since the US has milltary bases on Turkish soil. Turkey, Germany, Netherlands, Italy and Belgium have all trained their Air force how to deliver American nukes. Turkey has roughly 90 B61 NATO allocated nuclear weapons, in the direct possession of the Turkish Air Force stored under Turkeys Incerlik Air Force base. Neither side would test each other in the nuclear department because it would be suicide for both. these weapons are guarded by American soldiers but are to be activated during a Nuclear attack upon any of these 5 states.



This post just comes off as butthurt/bitter/childishly angry. Remarkably apt for the Erdogan government actually. 

Yes yes, Israel weak Turkey MIGHTY! I don't even feel like going into the military specifics again to show that you're full of shit but if you insist I'll just copypasta from an earlier post. However you still haven't explained why you want a war so much or why war would be such a great thing. What would such a war accomplish? What good would it do? Would you even fight in this "fun" war yourself? I would. 

Keep in mind that:

A.) the Red Cross has declared there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza and UN/Western aid is regularly delivered through Israeli border crossings. There is no urgent need for any aid flotillas. So why start a war over it?
B.) If Turkey insists on delivering aid, it can do so through UN channels or by unloading the aid in Egypt/Israel. So why start a war with a naval "escort"?
C.) Israel's naval blockade has been declared legal by a UN report. What is the great injustice being done that needs a catastrophic war over?

This whole "OMG ARTICLE 5" thing is idiotic too as there are tons of past instances where it hasn't been invoked despite member states fighting a war:

-Vietnam War
-Portuguese Colonial Wars
-Suez War
-Turkish occupation of Cyprus
-Falklands War
-French Indochina/Algerian Wars

You're even more stupid then I previously thought if you think Europe/US will start a war against Israel that Turkey itself is responsible for creating. 

Also with this "hur hur Turkey could steal American nukes!" idea, Turkey would  also be at war with the US and probably the rest of NATO afterwards as they would have attacked a NATO member to steal its nuclear weapons and then use them. Turkey would be the psychopath of the world and probably destroyed as a result, in addition to the catastrophic damage it would receive by starting a nuclear war with Israel.


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## Jin-E (Sep 9, 2011)

Looks like Israel might be planning to diplomatically counter attack Turkey:




> *Israel to ?punish? Turkey
> Jerusalem fights back: Foreign Minister Lieberman formulates series of tough moves in response to Turkish steps; Israel to cooperate with Armenian lobby in US, may offer military aid to Kurdish rebels*
> 
> Senior Foreign Ministry officials convened Thursday to prepare for a meeting to be held Saturday with Lieberman on the matter. Saturday?s session will be dedicated to discussing Israel?s response to Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan?s recent threats and his decision to downgrade Ankara?s diplomatic ties with Jerusalem.
> ...


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## Megaharrison (Sep 9, 2011)

Meh I don't think we should even pay attention to what the Turks are saying. I appreciate that Lieberman was instrumental in not having us capitulate to Turkish threats and "apologize", but now it's best to just ignore them as Erdogan continues his daily temper tantrums.

Part of this is Turkey wants a public confrontation with Israel, which is why Erdogan and his cronies are saying the most outlandish things they can every day in order to provoke a reaction. A reason the Turks are saying crazier and crazier things is because every Israeli response to their provocations so far has been "meh" and apathetic. It's like a child holding his breath to get what he wants. And like a child who does that, he'll pass out eventually.

However we do need to form a coalition with Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Armenia, and the Kurds as Turkey's leadership is showing signs of derangement and mental instability these days and is clearly becoming more and more dangerous and unpredictable. Fortunately this is already happening, though Armenia is a tougher sell due to its past ties with Iran.


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## Helios (Sep 9, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> However we do need to form a coalition with Greece, Cyprus, Bulgaria, Armenia, and the Kurds as Turkey's leadership is showing signs of derangement and mental instability these days and is clearly becoming more and more dangerous and unpredictable. Fortunately this is already happening, though Armenia is a tougher sell due to its past ties with Iran.



The greek vice president stated today in the parliament that any action against Cyprus is an action against Greece.

The greek minister of National Defense had a long visit in Israel some days before and it is certain that Turkey was one of the topics of discussion.


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## Oil Can (Sep 9, 2011)

Someone needs to do something about Israel, SagemodePrinz. Are you ready to step up to the big leagues?


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 9, 2011)

> Jerusalem fights back: Foreign Minister Lieberman formulates series of tough moves in response to Turkish steps; Israel to cooperate with Armenian lobby in US, *may offer military aid to Kurdish rebels*



Offering military aid to an internationally recognized terrorist group ? Good luck with that


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## Megaharrison (Sep 9, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Offering military aid to an internationally recognized terrorist group ? Good luck with that



Turkey invites Hamas leaders to Ankara and now wants to send them flotillas under armed guard. Can't imagine what Turkey would do if we did that with the PKK. Instead, we helped Turkey capture the PKK leader.

Also he probably means the Peshmerga.


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## Trias (Sep 10, 2011)

^ Nah, he doesnt mean Peshmerga. Lieberman was talking about supporting PKK publicly. Plus, Peshmerga at the moment, are officers of Northern Kurdistan. That's why we dont touch them, and they dont touch us.

 Mind you, at least some part of Israeli intelligence should indeed be assisting PKK, I mean, lets be honest, it's too much of an opportunity for any Middle Eastern powerhouse to not get involved. It's most likely like OSI/Taliban relationship, where majority of Pakistani goverment apparently supports US but there's still OSI fingerprint all over the place.

 Plus, it would not be the first time that one of our Allies did that either, one and half a year ago, I think, we found US m1a4's on the terrorists, and it's not a new instance to find some very european looking, obviously non middle eastern "terrorists" amongst dead PKK members.

 In any case, Israel should act with pre-caution. It's sad but most of the public opinion of Israel is real, real bad in Turkey, due to constant media propoganda. So even if other major parties won't follow Erdoğan to a war, they still pretty much dislike Israel at the moment. And that even includes PKK's political arm, BDP. So supporting PKK will actually NOT get you sympathy of even the Kurds (because making analogy of their struggle against Turkish Goverment with Gazans vs Israel is profitable for them, propoganda-wise) and rest of the Turkish population will dislike Israel even more. 

 Israel is already doing good, it's not like they'll have too much problems if Turkey jerks off lonely. Israel definitely should not start jerking off as well, however "rightful" as that may seem. It's not like it'll give Israel a direct benefit (other than maybe pleasing some ultra-nationalists) and it'll strengthen Anti-Israeli feelings in Turkey even more.

 Erdoğan is already making a big deal of fuss, accusing other political party leaders of "being lawyers of Israel" and whatnot. Of course, it's funny this is coming from Erdoğan, who did a good job of pleasing certain Israeli echelons in past, but nonetheless, it plays well politically.  If anti-israeli feelings strengthen in public, opposition parties will have no choice but to either join Erdoğan's camp, or be labelled as "pro-Israeli" even if they critisize Israeli but just do not want to take punny actions like these. Playing into Erdoğan's hands and strengthening his regime was what Europe did so in past, and they're backpedalling like a circus cycler at the moment. Israel should not do the same mistake.


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## Lucaniel (Sep 10, 2011)

i have to say, i'm not entirely surely why turkey cares, beyond the usual inter-country pissing contest reasons


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## Megaharrison (Sep 10, 2011)

Trias said:


> ^ Nah, he doesnt mean Peshmerga. Lieberman was talking about supporting PKK publicly. Plus, Peshmerga at the moment, are officers of Northern Kurdistan. That's why we dont touch them, and they dont touch us.
> 
> Mind you, at least some part of Israeli intelligence should indeed be assisting PKK, I mean, lets be honest, it's too much of an opportunity for any Middle Eastern powerhouse to not get involved. It's most likely like OSI/Taliban relationship, where majority of Pakistani goverment apparently supports US but there's still OSI fingerprint all over the place.
> 
> ...



Lieberman is just being Lieberman and wants to drastically redefine Israeli foreign policy. We are the most passive diplomatically of any country in the world as our own goal is acceptance. What we let other countries get away with while still officially dubbing them "friends" is ridiculous and most of our ties are down military to military rather then politician to politician. A good example is India, our trade/military/strategic ties are flourishing but they still lambast us politically and at the UN. Lieberman is finally trying to give Israel the interactions with the world that most other countries take for granted, but it's an unrealistic goal. 

As I've said most of Israel's foreign policy is done through the defense establishment apparatuses to another countries own defense establishment. Our foreign ministry are mostly for day-to-day and formality purposes. Thus Lieberman's power is vastly overstated by the media, who don't understand how Israeli politics work. If you _really_ want to see how Israel is reacting to something, look at what the defense officials are up to (though this is complicated as they're very secretive). A good piece of evidence for this is when Netanyahu was trying to reconcile with Turkey after the flotilla raid a Defense Ministry official was sent to Turkey secretly without Lieberman even knowing. In Israel, the Defense establishment reigns supreme over all foreign policy yet we still retain a functioning civilian diplomatic base and democratic tradition. Israeli politics is complicated like that.

I agree that we should simply ignore what Turkey is saying everyday, it's clearly getting Erdogan pretty butthurt as he tries to provoke one response after another each day. 

Recognizing the Armenian genocide is probably going to happen though, as we need to foster ties with Armenia now in the face of Turkish threats, and Greece/Bulgaria/Cyprus have been pushing for Israeli recognition and Armenia has suggested they would halt ties with Iran if we filled the void. Even if one doesn't believe in the Armenian genocide I still think it's something we should do for pragmatic reasons, just as we haven't recognized it for years to appease Turkey.

As for the Kurds, it's unclear who Lieberman meant. He didn't say the PKK and he didn't mean the Peshmerga. Supporting a Communist Muslim militia which links to Syria is not something we'd contemplate. As for the Pakistan comparison, we have far better control over of our military/intelligence apparatus so that isn't the case. Whatever Israeli's may be involved with the Kurds are either doing so as American-hired private mercenaries or retired rogue Mossad agents who have started working black market operations as mercenaries (there are a few of these unfortunately, pop up in Africa mostly and don't return to Israel due to legal consequences).

Anyway, Erdogan is already covering his tracks ala Ahmadinejad with the "I was misquoted" act. My guess is either he either got to emotional in the Al Jazeera interview and realized he said something he shouldn't have after he calmed down (he is a very emotional guy) or that he got a verbal beatdown by the US for its war mongering. The latter seems more likely as he lashed out at Obama today:



Clearly venting his butthurt.


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## Perseverance (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm now officially turkey's fan, well done. Please wage war and wipe Israel of the map, thanks.


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## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I'm now officially turkey's fan, well done. Please wage war and wipe Israel of the map, thanks.



1: Thanks for letting everyone know you're a fan of genocide

2: Turkey can't successfully invade Israel.

3: Operation Samson.


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## Perseverance (Sep 11, 2011)

Watchman said:


> 1: Thanks for letting everyone know you're a fan of genocide
> 
> 2: Turkey can't successfully invade Israel.
> 
> 3: Operation Samson.



I support genocide against Palastinian oppressors, ie. Israel. It's not that bad


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Big troll here.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I support genocide against Palastinian oppressors, ie. Israel. It's not that bad




Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.


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## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Big troll here.


Eh, check out his posts in the Mohammed debate thread. Guy thinks Islam is perfect. Might be dealing with a real fanatic here.



			
				SagemodePrinz said:
			
		

> Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.


Turkey has  active military personnel. The nation itself has a population of 73 million. What the fuck are you talking about?


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.



Oh look it's Mr. I Don't Know Shit About Actual Warfighting Capabilities.



Coteaz said:


> Eh, check out his posts in the Mohammed debate thread. Guy thinks Islam is perfect. Might be dealing with a real fanatic here.



Call the FBI.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Oh look it's Mr. I Don't Know Shit About Actual Warfighting Capabilities.



Says the guy pretending to be in the military


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## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.



Do you understand the difference between guerrilla warfare and conventional warfare? (Also feel free to google the Six Day War or Yom Kippur War)


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I support genocide against Palastinian oppressors, ie. Israel. It's not that bad





SagemodePrinz said:


> Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.



Truly Islam is the religion of peace, who else could advocate the murder or millions of people? Not only do you want genocide, you also want millions of Turks to die when Israel has to resort to nukes in order to stop the invading barbarians.


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Says the guy pretending to be in the military



Says the guy pretending to be all about Turkey while wanking Canada.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Turkey has  active military personnel. The nation itself has a population of 73 million. What the fuck are you talking about?



I'm talking about the number of people that are available for military service, excluding the number that are fit for military service.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Says the guy pretending to be all about Turkey while wanking Canada.



Says the Yank wanking all over Korea. 

And people like you and Sauf have the nerve to call other people trolls


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I'm talking about the number of people that are available for military service, excluding the number that are fit for military service.



Assuming they're all going to serve, but you've already made an ass out of yourself so that covers part of what an assumption does.



Elim Rawne said:


> Says the Yank wanking all over Korea.
> 
> And people like you and Sauf have the nerve to call other people trolls



Pot, meet kettle.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Truly Islam is the religion of peace, who else could advocate the murder or millions of people? Not only do you want genocide, you also want millions of Turks to die when Israel has to resort to nukes in order to stop the invading barbarians.




If Turkey is nuked they'll have nothing to lose so they might as well hot wire the American nukes and turn Israel into a car park.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I'm talking about the number of people that are available for military service, excluding the number that are fit for military service.



Well, we're talking about actual military personnel. Turkey has around 1 million active+reserve, while Israel has around 650.000 active+reserve personnel. Add to that the fact that Israel would have home advantage (partisans, lots of stationary defenses) and of course their nukes and you have a war that's impossible to win for Turkey.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Assuming they're all going to serve, but you've already made an ass out of yourself so that covers part of what an assumption does.



There's a jail sentence at the end of it you don't serve. A good majority of those people won't risk it.
And you made an ass out of yourself again.


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## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> I'm talking about the number of people that are available for military service, excluding the number that are fit for military service.


You realize that:

1) Turkey does not have the industrial strength to arm 40 million soldiers.
2) Conscripting half of its population would immediately devastate its economy.
3) Turkey does not have the air/sea capabilities to transport 40 million soldiers to Israel.
4) Population alone does not win any wars.

Good day, Herr Prinz.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> If Turkey is nuked they'll have nothing to lose so they might as well hot wire the American nukes and turn Israel into a car park.



Bullshit. Getting nuked doesn't mean you have nothing to lose. Even a nuke directly on Ankara would only kill a few hundred thousand, that's still over 70 million people who all have something to lose. "Hotwiring" the nukes would not only result in a war with the entire NATO but also likely kill everyone in a few kilometer radius.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Well, we're talking about actual military personnel. Turkey has around 1 million active+reserve, while Israel has around 650.000 active+reserve personnel. Add to that the fact that Israel would have home advantage (partisans, lots of stationary defenses) and of course their nukes and you have a war that's impossible to win for Turkey.



If Turkey attempts that invasion they'll be looking to increase that number. They've got more than 40 million that are available for service, 5 million should get the job done. Turkey could take Israel's Nucleur weapons out before they get a chance to use them and then strike with the American nukes.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Bullshit. Getting nuked doesn't mean you have nothing to lose. Even a nuke directly on Ankara would only kill a few hundred thousand, that's still over 70 million people who all have something to lose. "Hotwiring" the nukes would not only result in a war with the entire NATO but also likely kill everyone in a few kilometer radius.



They could nuke the crap out of Israel, ask the millitary surrender while Erdogan and the rest of the goverment flees to Egypt. By the way Turkey has the right to defend itself against a Nucleur attack. If Israel launches first they've been given the permission to strike back by the US.


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> There's a jail sentence at the end of it you don't serve. A good majority of those people won't risk it.
> And you made an ass out of yourself again.





Coteaz said:


> You realize that:
> 
> 1) Turkey does not have the industrial strength to arm 40 million soldiers.
> 2) Conscripting half of its population would immediately devastate its economy.
> ...



Shut the fuck up Elim.  Coteaz helped with that before I could.


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## Perseverance (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Truly Islam is the religion of peace, who else could advocate the murder or millions of people? Not only do you want genocide, you also want millions of Turks to die when Israel has to resort to nukes in order to stop the invading barbarians.



Actually, you'd find Jews and people of all faiths and backgrounds share my opinions on matter.

Oh, and are you really that dumb to judge religion by the action of people


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## Sanity Check (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> 1) Turkey does not have the industrial strength to arm 40 million soldiers.
> 2) Conscripting half of its population would immediately devastate its economy.




Out of curiosity, how do you know what Turkey's population is?  

Do you know this offhand or are you googling?  

If you know it offhand what's the practical application for this type of information?


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> If Turkey attempts that invasion they'll be looking to increase that number. They've got more than 40 million that are available for service, 5 million should get the job done.



No, numbers don't actually help you when you have no way of getting them to the enemy. By your logic China could invade Europe because they have so many people. They can't get their soldiers there by sea or by air, Israel's defenses are too good for that and to get them there by land, they'd have to make a deal with Assad (highly unlikely) and then still force-march all the soldiers towards Israel in a timely manner while Israel has all the time in the world to set up their defenses and bomb the shit out of Turkey's forces.

Add to that the lack of morale in the Turkish military. Unlike Erdogan, the military staff is very much sane and most of the high-ranking officers support secularism as opposed to your religion of death. A military coup to prevent millions of Turks from dying because of Erdogan's mental issues is more likely than your bullshit.



> Turkey could take Israel's Nucleur weapons out before they get a chance to use them and then strike with the American nukes.



Maybe in your fantasy dream land where Islam is an actual religion of peace and all the Jews are exterminated, but in reality things look a little different.


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## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Out of curiosity, how do you know what Turkey's population is?


Wikipedia, citing the 2008 census done by the Turkish Statistical Institute. 



> If you know it offhand what's the practical application for this type of information?


Why, slapping down noobs on the internet, duh


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> They could nuke the crap out of Israel, ask the millitary surrender while Erdogan and the rest of the goverment flees to Egypt. By the way Turkey has the right to defend itself against a Nucleur attack. If Israel launches first they've been given the permission to strike back by the US.



They couldn't nuke anything out of Israel because (for the last time):

Turkey does not have any nukes.

And no, the US wouldn't allow a genocidal madman to nuke one of its best allies.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> Actually, you'd find Jews and people of all faiths and backgrounds share my opinions on matter.



Well yeah, racists and they come in all colors, there's not a lot of people who share your dream of mass murder, though. I'm pretty sure most people prefer not to murder others. I think that's really just you and a few others.



> Oh, and are you really that dumb to judge religion by the action of people



Sorry, I really shouldn't judge your religion just because you're a genocidal asshole.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat

How old are you?? Were you born during the 2006 Lebonan war??? If not you should google it , you should get a lot of info on how Israel's military practically shited themselves when they were confronted by Hezbollah soldiers that were trained and armed in Iran. 

By the way Assad hates Israel just like the next guy, if Turkey was willing to get rid of them for him especially since they're still occupying Syrian land, I'm pretty sure he'll help out.


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## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> I think someone's _trying too hard_ to appear "intelligent" on the intern37z.


You mean the entirety of the Cafe? Yeah, I agree.



> I never google unless its for a link, etc.
> 
> Maybe I should put more effort in...


The internet, and search engines, have opened up a vast realm of information available to all. It is truly a wonder of the modern age.

You're trying very hard to sound "superior" by _not_ taking advantage of this near-unlimited repository of knowledge.


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## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> They couldn't nuke anything out of Israel because (for the last time):
> 
> Turkey does not have any nukes.
> 
> And no, the US wouldn't allow a genocidal madman to nuke one of its best allies.



Pakistan and Iran could help Turkey with hot wiring the nukes. The Turkish air force will drop them on Israel and surrender as soon as Israel has been turned into a car park. Meanwhile Erdogan flees to Egypt just like Ben Ali of Tunisia. 

Israel won't get a chance to use their nukes since the Turkish military could take them out with missiles.


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## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Lol this is starting to turn into a battledome thread.


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Pakistan and Iran could help Turkey with hot wiring the nukes. The Turkish air force will drop them on Israel and surrender as soon as Israel has been turned into a car park. Meanwhile Erdogan flees to Egypt just like Ben Ali of Tunisia.
> 
> Israel won't get a chance to use their nukes since the Turkish military could take them out with missiles.



It's true.  I've seen the fanfic you wrote for this.


----------



## bullsh3t (Sep 11, 2011)

Turkey would destroy Israel in a naval battle. Turkey has way more manpower and more money. WTF is Israel doing they can't handle Turkey.


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## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Someone has been playing too much command and conquer generals or COD... none of these senarios that sage gives can actually happen...


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## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

This thread has really brought them all out, like weevils crawling from a bag of flour.


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## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> This thread has really brought them all out, like weevils crawling from a bag of flour.



Now we need a can of RAID!


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## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> This thread has really brought them all out, like weevils crawling from a bag of flour.



Who exactly is ''them''?


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## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> Who exactly is ''them''?



Apparently anyone against Israel.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Saufsoldat
> 
> How old are you?? Were you born during the 2006 Lebonan war??? If not you should google it , you should get a lot of info on how Israel's military practically shited themselves when they were confronted by Hezbollah soldiers that were trained and armed in Iran.



Hezbollah casualties: 500
Hezbollah injured: 1500
IDF casualties: 121
IDF injured: 628

All of that while Hezbollah had both the advantage of the first strike and that the war was fought on their territory. Not to mention that the IDF has to restrain itself while Hezbollah murders without regard for civilians.



> By the way Assad hates Israel just like the next guy, if Turkey was willing to get rid of them for him especially since they're still occupying Syrian land, I'm pretty sure he'll help out.



Yes, I'm sure he'll let that fly and thereby jeopardize his regime even further. Co-ordinating an entire army through your country while there's lots of insurgents and anti-government protests. It's the perfect plan for Assad to stay in power.



SagemodePrinz said:


> Pakistan and Iran could help Turkey with hot wiring the nukes. The Turkish air force will drop them on Israel and surrender as soon as Israel has been turned into a car park. Meanwhile Erdogan flees to Egypt just like Ben Ali of Tunisia.
> 
> Israel won't get a chance to use their nukes since the Turkish military could take them out with missiles.



Turkey has no idea where Israel's nukes are (unlike Pakistan, Israeli intelligence can actually find their own ass in the dark), while Israel and the NATO know exactly where to find the nukes in Turkey and could take them out in a heartbeat if Turkey does indeed decide to declare war on the USA and all of its allies.



bullsh3t said:


> Turkey would destroy Israel in a naval battle. Turkey has way more manpower and more money. WTF is Israel doing they can't handle Turkey.



Are you kidding? Turkey has nothing (as in *absolutely nothing*) to counter Israel's submarines, which are among the most advanced in the world. This isn't the 19th century, you don't win a naval battle just by having the most and the biggest ships.


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Apparently anyone against Israel.



There is a difference between people who have issues against Israel yet somehow remain logical, and then there are the fanatics....


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## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Is Sagemode really hinging on a country's intelligence service that knowingly harbored OBL?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Apparently anyone against Israel.



More like anyone who has no knowledge of the political and military reality of the world. "herp derp Turkey can hotwire nukes and then take out israeli nukes just like that" "hurr durr turkey has many, many peoples and big, strong ships. obviously they very strong and can crush israel"

It physically hurts to read this bullshit from people who want to see the entire population of Israel murdered. I don't know how some people can look at themselves in the mirror.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> More like anyone who has no knowledge of the political and military reality of the world. "herp derp Turkey can hotwire nukes and then take out israeli nukes just like that" "hurr durr turkey has many, many peoples and big, strong ships. obviously they very strong and can crush israel"
> 
> It physically hurts to read this bullshit from people who want to see the entire population of Israel murdered. I don't know how some people can look at themselves in the mirror.



Allah is their mirror?


----------



## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

Chelydra said:


> There is a difference between people who have issues against Israel yet somehow remain logical, and then there are the fanatics....



Fanatic? Who's that?



Saufsoldat said:


> More like anyone who has no knowledge of the political and military reality of the world. "herp derp Turkey can hotwire nukes and then take out israeli nukes just like that" "hurr durr turkey has many, many peoples and big, strong ships. obviously they very strong and can crush israel"
> 
> It physically hurts to read this bullshit from people who want to see the entire population of Israel murdered. I don't know how some people can look at themselves in the mirror.



I've seen some other people say similar things in wiping off different Muslim/Arab countries as well. Idiots on both sides I guess.


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Read this thread from page one, its full of fanatics...


----------



## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

> Fanatic? Who's that?





Perseverance said:


> I support genocide against Palastinian oppressors, ie. Israel. It's not that bad


And, responding to the above:


SagemodePrinz said:


> Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.



You'd think Israel raped their puppies or something.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Fanatic? Who's that?



Who indeed.



Perseverance said:


> I support genocide against Palastinian oppressors, ie. Israel. It's not that bad





SagemodePrinz said:


> Couldn't have said it any better, Turkey could invade Israel in a couple of days its the second largest military in NATO (after the US). Turkey's armed forces has more than 40 million men, while Israel's entire population is only 7,746,000. Still not convinced Google 2006 Lebanon war.



Maybe those guys are fanatics? I dunno, just a weird hunch I get when people openly advocate genocide. I guess I shouldn't judge Mein Kampf by its cover.



Syed said:


> I've seen some other people say similar things in wiping off different Muslim/Arab countries as well. Idiots on both sides I guess.



Well, Israel could potentially wipe out most Arab countries, considering that it has nukes, so the statement is not as insane as the reverse.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Is Sagemode really hinging on a country's intelligence service that knowingly harbored OBL?



You mean unknowingly?



Mael said:


> Allah is their mirror?



Failblog.org


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> You mean unknowingly?



Oh wait, you're serious.


----------



## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> And, responding to the above:
> 
> 
> You'd think Israel raped their puppies or something.



Seems to me he was trolling you all.


----------



## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> And, responding to the above:
> 
> 
> You'd think Israel raped their puppies or something.



I wouldn't put it past those dirty, dirty j00z.

-------

SagemodePrinz reminds me of that Korean guy who claimed that Korea could defeat the USA in a war, _if_ a bunch of increasingly bizarre conditions took place, and Korea 'won' despite having its entire country bombed to rubble.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Seems to me he was trolling you all.



You never looked at the "Was Muhammed Evil?" thread did you?


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Oh wait, you're serious.



What you were saying wouldn't make sense otherwise, unless you're suggesting they are incapable because they knowingly harboured ''OBL''.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Watchman said:


> I wouldn't put it past those dirty, dirty j00z.
> 
> -------
> 
> SagemodePrinz reminds me of that Korean guy who claimed that Korea could defeat the USA in a war, _if_ a bunch of increasingly bizarre conditions took place, and Korea 'won' despite having its entire country bombed to rubble.



There was a hilarious book written over that.  I love Korea but even that had me rolling on the floor.



> What you were saying wouldn't make sense otherwise, unless you're suggesting they are incapable because they knowingly harboured ''OBL''.



You're right...I meant to say they willingly harbored him and thus are rather incapable of integrity.


----------



## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Who indeed.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






> Well, Israel could potentially wipe out most Arab countries, considering that it has nukes, so the statement is not as insane as the reverse.



Potentially yes. But it would be stupid unless they were cornered which will never happen.

I've always wondered why Israel has nukes anyways.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Potentially yes. But it would be stupid unless they were cornered which will never happen.
> 
> I've always wondered why Israel has nukes anyways.



Surrounded by countries who have tried to invade you in the past 50 years?

Hmmmm......


----------



## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> There was a hilarious book written over that.  I love Korea but even that had me rolling on the floor.



Yeah - I want to get ahold of that book, but I've forgotten what it was called. Would've thought it was a parody if the same guy didn't write other books about Korea beating Russia, China, etc.



Syed said:


> Potentially yes. But it would be stupid unless they were cornered which will never happen.
> 
> I've always wondered why Israel has nukes anyways.



Israel has nukes to dissuade Arab aggression, preventing a repeat of the Yom Kippur War where the Arab world declares war on it in a moment of weakness, because nobody (Erdogan included, hopefully) is stupid enough to risk nuclear devastation at Israel's hands.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Hezbollah casualties: 500
> Hezbollah injured: 1500
> IDF casualties: 121
> IDF injured: 628
> ...



Hezbollah met its primary objective defend its land from the IDF, while the IDF didn't since they failed in their invasion of Lebanon. This means that all of the zionist bitches I mean IDF's sacrificed themselves for nothing. 

Israeli civilians:
43 dead
33 seriously wounded
68 moderately wounded
1,388 lightly wounded

Lebanese civilians:
*1,191 dead
4,409 wounded*

So much for your restraining theory




> Yes, I'm sure he'll let that fly and thereby jeopardize his regime even further. Co-ordinating an entire army through your country while there's lots of insurgents and anti-government protests. It's the perfect plan for Assad to stay in power.



Actually it could increase his chances of staying in power, the Syrians all hate Israel just like the Egyptians. Helping Turkey  invade it which could ultimately result in Syria getting their land back might gain him some extra support/recognition. 





> Turkey has no idea where Israel's nukes are (unlike Pakistan, Israeli intelligence can actually find their own ass in the dark), while Israel and the NATO know exactly where to find the nukes in Turkey and could take them out in a heartbeat if Turkey does indeed decide to declare war on the USA and its allies.



Turkey isn't stupid they would surrender the moment they've launched their nukes making sure that Erdogan has fled to Egypt.


----------



## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Surrounded by countries who have tried to invade you in the past 50 years?
> 
> Hmmmm......



With USA backing and a powerful military which you all stated can defeat countries like Turkey I don't see a need for nukes.



Watchman said:


> Israel has nukes to dissuade Arab aggression, preventing a repeat of the Yom Kippur War where the Arab world declares war on it in a moment of weakness, because nobody (Erdogan included, hopefully) is stupid enough to risk nuclear devastation at Israel's hands.



Arab invasion probably won't happen again. Iran's a threat to Israel's power in the Middle East if anything. 

I still don't like the idea of Israel having nukes but if it gives them some sense of security than more power to them.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> With USA backing and a powerful military which you all stated can defeat countries like Turkey I don't see a need for nukes.



Yeah you'd think that...but then why would France have nukes?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> Potentially yes. But it would be stupid unless they were cornered which will never happen.



Of course, Israel has one of the few mentally healthy governments of the region. 



> I've always wondered why Israel has nukes anyways.



As a last resort, obviously. A strong and advanced military can only get you so far when all of your neighbors have a bigger population and hate you with a passion.


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> With USA backing and a powerful military which you all stated can defeat countries like Turkey I don't see a need for nukes.



The USA has never backed Israel militarily, all our backing consists of is sending money and supplies... No American troops have ever been sent to assist Israel in combat ops.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Syed said:


> With USA backing and a powerful military which you all stated can defeat countries like Turkey I don't see a need for nukes.



The USA won't be getting involved since Turkey is a NATO ally. if they did get involved this would results in the entire Arab world along with Pakistan and Iran joining Turkey's side. Russia, China and N.Korea could also get involved resulting in WW3. 

"...World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones." 

Albert Einstein


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

I'm sick of repeating myself for the umpteenth time. Yes, Sagemode, Turkey will launch all their pretend nukes against Israel, which will pretend kill millions and Turkey will have pretend won their pretend war. Great success, I applaud you for your knowledge about Turkey's non-existent nuclear capabilities.

I'll think of you next time I burn a Koran.


----------



## JH24 (Sep 11, 2011)

Well, this thread really made some people show their true colors. I actually regret reading this thread. Some comments are just shocking. How can people actually defend/advocate genocide and starting a war?


Glad to see there are members who know how to discuss and can back up their points instead of some who are clearly living in a dreamworld. 

(I'm looking at you, SagemodePrinz. Just stop already, you're just embarassing yourself)


----------



## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> The USA won't be getting involved since Turkey is a NATO ally. if they did get involved this would results in the entire Arab world along with Pakistan and Iran joining Turkey's side. Russia, China and N.Korea could also get involved resulting in WW3.
> 
> "...World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
> 
> Albert Einstein





You have the worst understanding of geopolitics and military I've seen since that clown Cirus.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> The USA won't be getting involved since Turkey is a NATO ally. if they did get involved this would results in the entire Arab world along with Pakistan and Iran joining Turkey's side. Russia, China and N.Korea could also get involved resulting in WW3.
> 
> "...World War 4 will be fought with sticks and stones."
> 
> Albert Einstein


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)




----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

This is hilarious.


----------



## bullsh3t (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Are you kidding? Turkey has nothing (as in *absolutely nothing*) to counter Israel's submarines, which are among the most advanced in the world. This isn't the 19th century, you don't win a naval battle just by having the most and the biggest ships.



True but Israel only has 3 submarines while Turkey has 16 submarines these aren't tanks 1 hit could fuck you up.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'll think of you next time I burn a Koran.



You're German right?

You're starting to sound like a new Hitler for Muslims.


----------



## Yondaime Namikaze (Sep 11, 2011)

Fisticuffs will take place and Krav Maga shall be used.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> You're German right?
> 
> You're starting to sound like a new Hitler for Muslims.




Yeah, and here I thought the Nazi party was banned in Germany. Seems like Nazis have moved on to Muslims.


----------



## Yondaime Namikaze (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I'm sick of repeating myself for the umpteenth
> I'll think of you next time I burn a Koran.


Lol, learn to spell Qur'an and also learn to not be an idiot. Racist fuck.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> Yeah, and here I thought the Nazi party was banned in Germany. Seems like Nazis have moved on to Muslims.



Says Herr Prinz.


----------



## JH24 (Sep 11, 2011)

Frankly, I'm disgusted with some of the comments. Why would some people actually want a war to happen between Israel and Turkey? It would accomplish nothing, absolutely nothing!


How can anyone wish for a war? It makes my heart sink to read that. Honestly, I just can't wrap my mind around it. I really can't.


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 11, 2011)

JH24 said:


> Frankyl, I'm disgusted with some of the comments. Why would some people actually want a war to happen between Israel and Turkey? It would accomplish nothing, absolutely nothing!.



It's what the anti-Israel OMG ZIONISTS crowd is reduced to these days. Fanatical warmongerers. 

Anyway, Erdogan has already said he was "misquoted" in the warship escorting thing so I think this thread is pretty much done. International pressure against his childish warmongering probably forced such a reversal.


----------



## Watchman (Sep 11, 2011)

And now Godwin's Law on top of everything else.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Says Herr Prinz.



There's a difference between being an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite. I've got no problem with Palestinian Jews living in Palestine alongside Muslim and Christian Palestinians.


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> There's a difference between being an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite. I've got no problem with Palestinian Jews living in Palestine alongside Muslim and Christian Palestinians.



You've openly called for mass genocide and devastating war for no real reason. No matter what you ever say again, nothing can rebuild your credibility. You're done here and will continue to be a laughing stock. My advice is go to another section or get a dupe.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> It's what the anti-Israel OMG ZIONISTS crowd is reduced to these days. Fanatical warmongerers.
> 
> Anyway, Erdogan has already said he was "misquoted" in the warship escorting thing so I think this thread is pretty much done. International pressure against his childish warmongering probably forced such a reversal.



He repeated several times that his Navy will dominate the Mediterranean. He's also called Israel a spoiled child. So no he wasn't misquoted. 

He's planning on visiting Gaza himself


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> There's a difference between being an anti-Zionist and an anti-Semite. I've got no problem with Palestinian Jews living in Palestine alongside Muslim and Christian Palestinians.



Wholesale destruction of Israel includes all of them, and Israel is mostly Jewish...so don't tell me you're calling a spade a spade.


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> He's planning on visiting Gaza himself


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> He repeated several times that his Navy will dominate the Mediterranean. He's also called Israel a spoiled child. So no he wasn't misquoted.
> 
> He's planning on visiting Gaza himself



FFFFFhahahahahaha...US Navy says hello.


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

> Anyway, Erdogan has already said he was "misquoted" in the warship escorting thing so I think this thread is pretty much done. International pressure against his childish warmongering probably forced such a reversal.



LOL he was "misquoted"


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> You've openly called for mass genocide and devastating war for no real reason. No matter what you ever say again, nothing can rebuild your credibility. You're done here and will continue to be a laughing stock. My advice is go to another section or get a dupe.



No I've called for an invasion that will lead to freeing the Palestinian people.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> You've openly called for mass genocide and devastating war for no real reason. No matter what you ever say again, nothing can rebuild your credibility. You're done here and will continue to be a laughing stock. My advice is go to another section or get a dupe.



Being a laughing stock in the cafe usually means you're doing something right.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> True but Israel only has 3 submarines while Turkey has 16 submarines these aren't tanks 1 hit could fuck you up.



Again, you're thinking in 19th century terms. 

More =/= better

Israel can detect and potentially destroy Turkish submarines, Turkey can't even detect Israeli submarines.

Oh and they're getting two new (as in brand new) submarines very soon, which makes a total of five highly advanced submarines.



No.1Moose said:


> You're German right?
> 
> You're starting to sound like a new Hitler for Muslims.



Elaborate, please. Did I ever express any desire to have another human being be hurt or even killed? I think not. You on the other hand are casting your lot with people who advocate the slaughter of the entire Israeli population. Does it feel good, standing there?



SagemodePrinz said:


> Yeah, and here I thought the Nazi party was banned in Germany. Seems like Nazis have moved on to Muslims.



A genocide supporter has the nerves to compare me to a nazi?


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> No I've called for an invasion that will lead to freeing the Palestinian people.



As in eliminating all the Israel Jews/Israelis in general.  You made no reference to relocation nor movement out, just pure and simple annihilation which would also include Palestinian territories.  You clearly are an idiot, please get the fuck out.



No.1Moose said:


> Being a laughing stock in the cafe usually means you're doing something right.



No that's just you being deluded.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Muay Thai said:


> Lol, learn to spell Qur'an and also learn to not be an idiot. Racist fuck.



Muslim isn't a race...but nice try.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Elaborate, please. Did I ever express any desire to have another human being be hurt or even killed?


Your random comments about the Quran and Muslims I have seen on a regular basis.



> You on the other hand are casting your lot with people who advocate the slaughter of the entire Israeli population. Does it feel good, standing there?



I'm not casting my lot with anyone.





Mael said:


> No that's just you being deluded.



I didn't expect you to agree.


----------



## Nemesis (Sep 11, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> True but Israel only has 3 submarines while Turkey has 16 submarines these aren't tanks 1 hit could fuck you up.



Never EVER EVER go into battle thinking about numbers.  Seriously a size of a military may matter at some point but when one side has military technology and training far superior to another numbers mean nothing more than how many coffins will be filled.

Turkey may have 16 subs but I doubt any of them could compare to an Israeli one and i bet they are all in the Aegean violating Greek waters just to make their dicks look big anyway like with their aircraft violating Greek airspace every other week.


----------



## Yondaime Namikaze (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Muslim isn't a race...but nice try.


He's singling out a race of people, namely Turkish people. Whoever said I was referring Muslims to be a race?


----------



## Megaharrison (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:
			
		

> No I've called for an invasion that will lead to freeing the Palestinian people.



Lets start a nuclear war to free Tibet then. An Kashmir. And Chechnya. And Kurdistan. Lets start 40-50 more wars from the 40-50 other land disputes in the world. Brilliant plan! 

Again, you're pro-genocide and seem to think that North Korea and Pakistan are going to ally with Turkey if they go to war.  You see completely wrong things that are then debunked in 3 seconds in the post below you. Nothing you ever say will make you able to post here without being laughed at again. Though if you apologize and are a good boy then maybe I at least will consider pitying you instead of laughing at you.



No.1Moose said:


> Being a laughing stock in the cafe usually means you're doing something right.



Usually means being homophobic, thinking 9/11 is a conspiracy, or BAWWW ISRAEL.

Oh and whoever said we have 3 Submarines, we actually have 5 and they're significantly more advanced than the Turkish Type 209's. AIP engines, EW systems, cruise missiles, far greater endurance, etc.. Moreover if you know anything about submarine warfare, submarines that are deployed in a defensive posture close to their port have a far greater advantage than advancing ones. Read about the Battle of the Atlantic if you don't believe me.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Muay Thai said:


> He's singling out a race of people, namely Turkish people. Whoever said I was referring Muslims to be a race?



He said he'd burn a Qu'ran/Koran (really don't care about spelling).  How does that specifically imply Turkish people who are more an ethnicity than a race?


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> Your random comments about the Quran and Muslims I have seen on a regular basis.



The Koran is a despicable book full of violence and intolerance. I oppose violence, so naturally I have to oppose the Koran and Islam, my conscience doesn't allow for anything else. Do tell me how that makes me in any way similar to Hitler.



> I'm not casting my lot with anyone.



My apologies then.



Muay Thai said:


> He's singling out a race of people, namely Turkish people. Whoever said I was referring Muslims to be a race?



Turkish people aren't a race either, but pray tell when did I ever say anything against the Turkish people? Please, quote me, point me to the right post and I'll acknoledge it. Maybe my memory is failing me, but I'm fairly certain that I did not at any point say anything negative about the Turkish people.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Usually means being homophobic, *thinking 9/11 is a conspiracy, or BAWWW ISRAEL*.



Like I said, you're doing something right.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> The Koran is a *despicable book* full of violence and intolerance.



Thinking that would usually imply you're not very fond of Muslims.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> Thinking that would usually imply you're not very fond of Muslims.



And that would make me Hitler? Good to know


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> Like I said, you're doing something right.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

At least make it a PNG, here you go:


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> And that would make me Hitler? Good to know



When I say ''not very fond'' I actually mean you hate Muslims. That and talking about burning Qurans, makes you *start to sound like* a Hitler for Muslims.


That's nice.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> When I say ''not very fond'' I actually mean you hate Muslims.



Well, I didn't mean that. I think they're deluded (as are all religious people in my opinion) and adhere to a disgusting philosophy, but that doesn't mean I hate muslims as people.



> That and talking about burning Qurans, makes you *start to sound like* a Hitler for Muslims.



I don't get the logical connection here. I never hurt anyone and never advocated violence against human beings, so how could you possibly compare me to someone who instigated the murder of millions?

How would burning a book (which of course I haven't actually done) make me anything like a genocidal, fascist dictator?


----------



## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> How would burning a book (which of course I haven't actually done) make me anything like a genocidal, fascist dictator?


Nazi Germany did undertake book burning campaigns. Just saying.


----------



## Banhammer (Sep 11, 2011)

Good. Honestly, Israel needs a goddamned spanking sometimes


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

Banhammer said:


> Good. Honestly, Israel needs a goddamned spanking sometimes



Yeah, like that'll happen. 

Oh you people and your naivete.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Nazi Germany did undertake book burning campaigns. Just saying.



I'm perfectly aware of that, but that's like saying jaywalking makes you look like Jeffrey Dahmer because he also did that (I'm talking out of my ass here, in case Mr. Dahmer didn't actually ever commit the horrible crime of jaywalking, I apologize for slandering his name).

Not to mention that book burning now and in the 30s are two entirely different things. Back then you were actually destroying information, nowadays it's little more than a political statement.


----------



## No.1Moose (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Yeah, like that'll happen.
> 
> Oh you people and your naivete.





Mael said:


> Frankly I'm not a fan of either. I just, if I had to, pick the one that doesn't elect Hamas.



Lol            .


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

No.1Moose said:


> Lol            .



So what?  Being realistic doesn't mean liking one or the other.

Learn2relate.


----------



## αce (Sep 11, 2011)

13 pages?
Let me just sum this up.

1. Israel intercepts Turkish ship
2. International community cries
3. Most legal scholars agree it is legal
4. Turkey cries and attempts to save their manhood with a political ploy
5. NF Israeli lovers and NF Palestinian lovers argue over it
6. Israel wins in the end and does whatever they want anyways


----------



## Coteaz (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Not to mention that book burning now and in the 30s are two entirely different things. Back then you were actually destroying information, nowadays it's little more than a political statement.


Most people associate book burning with Nazis, which is partially why Godwin's Law was invoked. Also, you're German, which makes it even easier.


----------



## SagemodePrinz (Sep 11, 2011)

Mael said:


> Yeah, like that'll happen.
> 
> Oh you people and your naivete.



It has already happened back in 2006


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

SagemodePrinz said:


> It has already happened back in 2006



Because they were there to specifically occupy.  Let me break it down for you.  If Israel REALLY wanted to, parts of Lebanon would be more flattened.  But good on you for your genocidal wishes, Oberst Prinz.


----------



## Trias (Sep 11, 2011)

So why is everyone Green. Srsly?


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Trias said:


> So why is everyone Green. Srsly?



I direct you here:


----------



## bullsh3t (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Again, you're thinking in 19th century terms.
> 
> More =/= better
> 
> ...


hehe we'll see once a submarine fires that would give away their position the dolphins subs maybe more advanced than the type 209 subs but they are outnumbered here hit one then you got 4more firing right at ya. "Turkey can't even detect Israeli submarines." not sure if that's entirely true we'll see once they fight but most likely not. Turkey purchasing power is 4x greater than Israel they can get better weapons. It'll come down to money.


----------



## S (Sep 11, 2011)

♠Ace♠ said:


> 13 pages?
> Let me just sum this up.
> 
> 1. Israel intercepts Turkish ship
> ...


Pretty much. The less friends Israel has the better.
trollolo


----------



## Saufsoldat (Sep 11, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> hehe we'll see once a submarine fires that would give away their position the dolphins subs maybe more advanced than the type 209 subs but they are outnumbered here hit one then you got 4more firing right at ya. "Turkey can't even detect Israeli submarines." not sure if that's entirely true we'll see once they fight but most likely not.



You can fire one torpedo and leave the action before anyone knows you're there. Besides, as megaharrison pointed out Israel would have home advantage. Just station the submarines near a port and they can take out any Turkish ship or submarine that comes too close.



> Turkey purchasing power is 4x greater than Israel they can get better weapons. It'll come down to money.



You can't just buy a submarine on ebay and have it one week later, that shit takes years to build and commission. The two new submarines that Israel is getting right now were ordered in 2005.


----------



## Mael (Sep 11, 2011)

S said:


> Pretty much. The less friends Israel has the better.
> trollolo



Saw what you did there, SuperTurk.


----------



## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

This pissing match is still going on? Why can people accept that Israel has the military advantage on their home court.


----------



## bullsh3t (Sep 11, 2011)

Chelydra said:


> This pissing match is still going on? Why can people accept that Israel has the military advantage on their home court.



Home court maybe but Israel is surrounded by enemies. Turkey has numbers on their side and most of their military is modern. Israel just has more advanced technology on their side but not to the point that they are untouchable it can only get them so far. Turkey is not even trying to invade I see them winning b/c they just want Israel to stop bullying them over the eastern Mediterranean.


----------



## AtomCy (Sep 11, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> Home court maybe but Israel is surrounded by enemies. Turkey has numbers on their side and most of their military is modern. Israel just has more advanced technology on their side but not to the point that they are untouchable it can only get them so far. Turkey is not even trying to invade I see them winning b/c they just want Israel to stop bullying them over the eastern Mediterranean.




3 words for you. 

Israeli Air Force.


----------



## Perseverance (Sep 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Well yeah, racists and they come in all colors, there's not a lot of people who share your dream of mass murder, though. I'm pretty sure most people prefer not to murder others. I think that's really just you and a few others.



I forgot, it's "collateral damage" when Americans kill afghans/iraqi's or when Isaeli's kill palastinians. 

What a hypocrite. 

ps. How am I racist lol?





Saufsoldat said:


> Sorry, I really shouldn't judge your religion just because you're a genocidal asshole.



Yes you do, your thinking is very narrow minded.



AtomCy said:


> 3 words for you.
> 
> Israeli Air Force.



I can see iran get involved, that's when the big boys (nuclears) come out to play


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## Megaharrison (Sep 11, 2011)

AtomCy said:


> 3 words for you.
> 
> Israeli Air Force.



Also Submarines, Coastal Artillery, Corvettes, and Missile Boats but hey lets ignore those too.

And Iran has no ability to strike Israel beyond some ballistic missile attacks on civilians. Such attacks would be limited in scale and some would be intercepted by Israeli missile defenses systems. Overall they would have no impact on military campaign. 

And Perserverance, if you want a genocide against Israel why does the supposed plight of the Palestinians bother you so? Are you racist and think certain groups should live while others should die?


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## Chelydra (Sep 11, 2011)

Number of enemies dont matter last time I checked Israel completely owned them all despite combined assaults. Also I doubt USA will sit idely by if the mid east launch a combined attack against Israel. Despite all your twisted fantacies Israel will prevail and the other countries will be utterly humiliated again.


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## Oil Can (Sep 11, 2011)

Why are people still arguing over this?


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 11, 2011)

Ehandz said:


> Why are people still arguing over this?



Aspergers ?
Loneliness ?
Jewishness ?


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## Dolohov27 (Sep 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> Nazi Germany did undertake book burning campaigns. Just saying.


This is true, i saw it in Indiana Jones: The Last Crusade


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## Oil Can (Sep 11, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Aspergers ?
> Loneliness ?
> Jewishness ?



Do you dislike Jews?


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## Nemesis (Sep 11, 2011)

bullsh3t said:


> Home court maybe but Israel is surrounded by enemies. Turkey has numbers on their side and most of their military is modern. Israel just has more advanced technology on their side but not to the point that they are untouchable it can only get them so far. Turkey is not even trying to invade I see them winning b/c they just want Israel to stop bullying them over the eastern Mediterranean.



Surrounded by enemies no.  Jordan and Egypt will not be going to war with Israel and while their citizens don't like Israel the leaders are not going to rip up their peace treaty over this.

Syria is having a ton of internal issues right now and not going to do anything.  Lebanon is too messed up with internal issues to do much and Saudi is too far in US pockets to care.

Turkey would be alone in any kind of military engagement.  Meanwhile Israel has Cyprus to help out and maybe some of the other neighbours of Turkey (who is also surrounded by enemies of their own making) may give some support in one way or another.


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## Elim Rawne (Sep 11, 2011)

Ehandz said:


> Do you dislike Jews?



Nope, I am jewish. I dislike Zionists thats all


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## Oil Can (Sep 11, 2011)

You'll have to forgive me for asking. I understand the inherit problems with Zionism and can understand why people would be against it but in my experience a lot people that claim to be anti-Zionist just don't like Jews. I'm not accusing you of that but a lot of the time you get people that just substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and it becomes rather tiring because it makes it harder to take the people who really have a legitimate things to say seriously (I do not consider racism or antisemitism or whatever you want to call it legitimate.)


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## Syed (Sep 11, 2011)

Ehandz said:


> You'll have to forgive me for asking. I understand the inherit problems with Zionism and can understand why people would be against it but in my experience a lot people that claim to be anti-Zionist just don't like Jews. I'm not accusing you of that but a lot of the time you get people that just substitute the word "Zionist" for "Jew" and it becomes rather tiring because it makes it harder to take the people who really have a legitimate things to say seriously (I do not consider racism or antisemitism or whatever you want to call it legitimate.)



Yes a lot of people think being anti-zionist means anti-jewish which means being anti semetic. But if someone is anti-zionist or even anti-Israeli it doesn't mean they hate Jews or are anti semetic. Some people are but not all of them. Similarly I can't consider all pro Israelis or Zionists to be also anti-Arab/anti-Muslim. Yet some are but not all. 

That's been my experience with people like these on different websites on the net.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 12, 2011)

Perseverance said:


> I forgot, it's "collateral damage" when Americans kill afghans/iraqi's or when Isaeli's kill palastinians.



Indeed it is, as neither target civilians on purpose. You advocate the deliberate slaughter of millions of civilians. There's a world of difference between the two.



> What a hypocrite.
> 
> ps. How am I racist lol?



The whole genocide thing.



> Yes you do, your thinking is very narrow minded.



Well, I haven't seen any non-muslims here advocating genocide, so that might factor into it.


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 12, 2011)

@AfterGlow

If you don't like my comment or disagree with my opinion, why don't you comment it here like Mega, hcheng02 and other did ??? Oh no, it's so easier and it's without risk to neg someone rather that coming here and debate. I'm not pretending to know everything about the conflict in the region so that's why I read the comments made on my opinion but thread like this one is so full of nervous people who defend their side to the death and flaming. This is why I avoids such thread. 

If you disagree with me, don't be a coward and tell me or at least in a PM but don't neg the comment of someone without even trying to debate with him.


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## hcheng02 (Sep 12, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> @AfterGlow
> 
> If you don't like my comment or disagree with my opinion, why don't you comment it here like Mega, hcheng02 and other did ??? Oh no, it's so easier and it's without risk to neg someone rather that coming here and debate. I'm not pretending to know everything about the conflict in the region so that's why I read the comments made on my opinion but thread like this one is so full of nervous people who defend their side to the death and flaming. This is why I avoids such thread.
> 
> If you disagree with me, don't be a coward and tell me or at least in a PM but don't neg the comment of someone without even trying to debate with him.



Which comment did he disagree with?


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 12, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Which comment did he disagree with?



The one you quoted and answered.
Here your answer


 The problem is not that he disagree, It's his attitude that piss me off. So easy to neg the opinion of someone without even trying to debate or just explain to m why I'm wrong.. I'm open mind guys, if you disagree with me, no problem, I'm open to read the opinions of the others.


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## hcheng02 (Sep 12, 2011)

Le M?le Dominant said:


> The one you quoted and answered.
> Here your answer
> 
> 
> The problem is not that he disagree, It's his attitude that piss me off. So easy to neg the opinion of someone without even trying to debate or just explain to m why I'm wrong.. I'm open mind guys, if you disagree with me, no problem, I'm open to read the opinions of the others.



Did you even reply to my post though?


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## Le Mâle-Pensant (Sep 12, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Did you even reply to my post though?



No, I read it. Your opinion and the others was enough for me to see that it's not so easy. So I did not need to answer.


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## Jin-E (Sep 13, 2011)

Richard Falk disagrees with the Palmer report. Im shocked i tell you, SHOCKED



> (Reuters) - Israel's naval blockade of the Gaza Strip violates international law, a panel of human rights experts reporting to a U.N. body said on Tuesday, disputing a conclusion reached by a separate U.N. probe into Israel's raid on a Gaza-bound aid ship.
> 
> The so-called Palmer Report on the Israeli raid of May 2010 that killed nine Turkish activists said earlier this month that Israel had used unreasonable force in last year's raid, but its naval blockade of the Hamas-ruled strip was legal.
> 
> ...


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## Watchman (Sep 13, 2011)

I think we already had a mention of Falk earlier in this thread.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 13, 2011)

> At least two-thirds of Gazan households lack secure access to food, he said. "People are forced to make unacceptable trade-offs, often having to choose between food or medicine or water for their families."



Sooooo, then why doesn't anyone starve in Gaza? Why do they have a better standard of living than Egypt?

If we were to believe the Israel haters, Gaza would be almost as miserable as half of Africa, when in reality it's better off than most of the actual poor countries in the world.


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## Mael (Sep 13, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Sooooo, then why doesn't anyone starve in Gaza? Why do they have a better standard of living than Egypt?
> 
> If we were to believe the Israel haters, Gaza would be almost as miserable as half of Africa, when in reality it's better off than most of the actual poor countries in the world.



Evil Jews are involved...that's why people care.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 13, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Sooooo, then why doesn't anyone starve in Gaza? Why do they have a better standard of living than Egypt?
> 
> If we were to believe the Israel haters, Gaza would be almost as miserable as half of Africa, when in reality it's better off than most of the actual poor countries in the world.



Sounds like Falk doesn't  either. 

This is the desperate pallywood victimization machine not getting what it wants and spitting at the judgement of the very institutions they often bitch Israel for supposedly not listening to. It also demonstrates why the UN is so unable to properly deal or resolve the Palestinian problem, as his "judgement" on Gaza doesn't include any attention or notice to rocket fire.


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## sadated_peon (Sep 13, 2011)

> At least two-thirds of Gazan households lack secure access to food, he said. "People are forced to make unacceptable trade-offs, often having to choose between food or medicine or water for their families."


Americans have to do the same thing. 



> Each day, people are forced to choose between groceries and health care, a no-win situation that jeopardizes many of the freedoms we cherish. The United States is the only industrialized nation that fails to guarantee health care for all our citizens, and the result is a health care system that is untenable not only morally, but also financially.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 13, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> Americans have to do the same thing.



Freedom flotilla to America! Hoooo!

I'll call the Turkish navy for escort.


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## Grep (Sep 14, 2011)

As a Jew I find this thread pretty ridiculous. And not just because people are saying shit against Israel but for the insane amount of support Israel gets no matter what. And the pure irony of intolerant people accusing each other of being intolerant. 

The lack of respect for Turkey as a military and economical power is also strange to me. People in this thread seem pretty ignorant about Turkey on both sides though. 

But either way Israel isn't the good innocent child people seem to love to make it out to be. They are just as responsible and guilty in many of if not most of its conflicts. I don't get why with Israel it has to be can do no wrong or can do no right though. How about being legitimately critical. The Israel fapping and bias needs to be toned way down though. At least as far as the government goes and shit. The people and the culture though is a different matter of course. American jews are clearly superior due to moar lulz and neurosis though.

EDIT: I also love the military fapping in this thread. 

When Americans do that shit people flip out. And we are one of the only countries with legitimate reason to brag and we get shit for it.


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## Saufsoldat (Sep 14, 2011)

BGtymin said:


> As a Jew I find this thread pretty ridiculous. And not just because people are saying shit against Israel but for the insane amount of support Israel gets no matter what. And the pure irony of intolerant people accusing each other of being intolerant.
> 
> The lack of respect for Turkey as a military and economical power is also strange to me. People in this thread seem pretty ignorant about Turkey on both sides though.
> 
> ...



It would be helpful if you could address specific points rather than accusing everyone except yourself of bias.


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## Megaharrison (Sep 14, 2011)

BGtymin said:


> As a Jew I find this thread pretty ridiculous. And not just because people are saying shit against Israel but for the insane amount of support Israel gets no matter what. And the pure irony of intolerant people accusing each other of being intolerant.
> 
> The lack of respect for Turkey as a military and economical power is also strange to me. People in this thread seem pretty ignorant about Turkey on both sides though.
> 
> ...



What exactly is your problem wioth what evil Israel has done now? Keep in mind a UN report determined the blockade is legal and the soldiers acted in self-defense. Also, that the Red Cross has stated there's no humanitarian crisis in Gaza thus starting a war to deliver aid to them is unnecessary, even if one accepts the Palestinians are worth global apocalypse.


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