# The Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan: Result of an Exchange, or Fusion of eyes?



## SaiST (Aug 17, 2011)

A discussion about the technicalities involved in the creation of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, which branched off from(and eventually, completely overwhelmed) . Posts were moved, copied, and edited to clean up the old thread, and make a smooth transition to the one we have here.

Please, review the thread as thoroughly as you can before voting, or sharing your opinion with the rest of us.


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## King Of Gamesxx (Aug 17, 2011)

Is it confirmed that to get EMS all you have to do is transplant the eyes? I thought it was more of a merging of the eyes or something.


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## senjutsu naruto (Aug 19, 2011)

King Of Gamesxx said:


> Also is it confirmed that to get EMS all you have to do is transplant the eyes? I thought it was more of a merging of the eyes or something.



Yes people, EMS is not a simple swap of eyes, its the merging of two sets into a new set which is transplanted into the person. Or else why didnt Madara's brother get EMS, he gave up his eyes to his brother so only he and not both of them would gain the EMS.

Susake eyes is gone ppl doesnt exist anymore, what's there now is a merged eye set.


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## Hexa (Aug 19, 2011)

It could be that it's just additionally rare for a ninja to be able to awaken the EMS by implanting his brother's eyes. Perhaps if Izuna implanted Madara's eyes he would simply remain blind as he doesn't have the potential to awaken the EMS.  Or it's a fusion.


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## senjutsu naruto (Aug 19, 2011)

Hexa said:


> It could be that it's just additionally rare for a ninja to be able to awaken the EMS by implanting his brother's eyes. Perhaps if Izuna implanted Madara's eyes he would simply remain blind as he doesn't have the potential to awaken the EMS.  Or it's a fusion.




You could be right, but obviously we wont know until its fully explain in manga again.
But:
* Statue with two set of eyes ( one set empty)when Itachi was explaining EMS to susake.
* Itachi never said it was a plain swap ( might be wrong)
* If you look at Madara after the gaining of EMS, its a combination of his MS and Izuna MS, adding more weight to a merger/fusion


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## Faustus (Aug 19, 2011)

@OP
1. The state of ET body cannot be changed and Edo jins are bad example because they are simply reflecting Madara's eyes being his "paths".
2. It's more likely EMS is a fusion and not a simple replacement.


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## SaiST (Aug 19, 2011)

senjutsu naruto said:


> King Of Gamesxx said:
> 
> 
> > Also is it confirmed that to get EMS all you have to do is transplant the eyes? I thought it was more of a merging of the eyes or something.
> ...





> _* If you look at Madara after the gaining of EMS, its a combination of his MS and Izuna MS, adding more weight to a merger/fusion_





Faustus said:


> 2. It's more likely EMS is a fusion and not a simple replacement.




It's a transplant. A swap. An exchange... That's how it's been described in the manga and it's supplementary reading.


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## Faustus (Aug 19, 2011)

SaiST said:


> It's a transplant. A swap. An exchange... That's how it's been described in the manga and it's supplementary reading.



Well, you can believe whatever you want, your proves are not better than ours, when the secret revealed somebody would happily say "I told ya!"


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## senjutsu naruto (Aug 19, 2011)

SaiST said:


> It's a transplant. A swap. An exchange... That's how it's been described in the manga and it's supplementary reading.



Well then why is sasuake relaxing for ages if its a simple eye transplant, Kakashi was running around in about 5 min after his and he isnt a uchila to start with. 
You mention transformation in your post, hence sasuke taking so long? What transformation? You say due to the douryoku (power) of two Mangekyou Sharingan users are melding. According to you is a simple swap so there isnt the douryoku of two MS but only one. So what exactly is transformating unless some form of fusion is occuring.


Plus in your own post you said Izuna wouldnt take Madaras eyes because they were considered useless i'm assuming after extensive MS usage. Last I checked so was Itachi's after the brothers fight,  so by your own admission transplanting those would make sauce just as bad as he was.......blind


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## Faustus (Aug 19, 2011)

senjutsu naruto said:


> Plus in your own post you said Izuna wouldnt take Madaras eyes because they were considered useless i'm assuming after extensive MS usage. Last I checked so was Itachi's after the brothers fight,  so by your own admission transplanting those would make sauce just as bad as he was.......blind



lol, some ownage here!


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## SaiST (Aug 19, 2011)

senjutsu naruto said:


> Well then why is sasuake relaxing for ages if its a simple eye transplant, Kakashi was running around in about 5 min after his and he isnt a uchila to start with.
> You mention transformation in your post, hence sasuke taking so long? What transformation? You say due to the douryoku (power) of two Mangekyou Sharingan users are melding. According to you is a simple swap so there isnt the douryoku of two MS but only one. So what exactly is transformating unless some form of fusion is occuring.


Just as the power of Shisui's chakra was present in his eyes after being transplanted to both Danzou and Itachi's crow, the power of Itachi's chakra is still there now that they're in Sasuke's eye sockets. Hence, why Sasuke could sense Itachi's douryoku flowing through him—increasing his power—after the transplant.

But Sasuke has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan. As a Mangekyou Sharingan user, his chakra—the root of his own douryoku—is now acclimating with Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan. This is how the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan grants greater power. This is why the Tomoe Seals of both users' Mangekyou Sharingan combine, even though they are still Itachi's eyes. This explains the appearance of the creature with two sets of Sharingan depicted in Chapter 386 behind Madara. This is why the recovery is taking so much longer than other eye transplants we've witnessed thus far. And this is why this _"exchange"_ of Mangekyou Sharingan, to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, can only be done between immediate family due to their compatibility.



> _Plus in your own post you said Izuna wouldnt take Madaras eyes because they were considered useless i'm assuming after extensive MS usage. Last I checked so was Itachi's after the brothers fight, so by your own admission transplanting those would make sauce just as bad as he was.......blind_


Is it just me, or do folks read through my posts very selectively whenever this subject pops up? :I

Itachi explained how this works, the transplant permanently restores the eyes' lost _"light"_. But as I pointed out in the post I linked to earlier, Madara and Izuna were the first two Uchiha to awaken to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan; this was all unknown territory for them. Unless we're told otherwise, neither of them had any way of knowing that this exchange would provide such benefits; so Izuna had no reason to take Madara's eyes under those circumstances. By the time he found out, Madara's eyes could have either been destroyed(to protect the clan's secrets/bloodline), and/or Izuna could have already fallen in battle.

Does this make sense to you?... Also, Itachi, Madara, and Sasuke have all referred to it as a _"plain swap"_–a transplant and/or exchange, to be more specific–on numerous occassions. That's also the way it's been described in the 3rd Databook. There's been no implication of the physical fusion between eyes that so many people in this community are stuck on.


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## King Of Gamesxx (Aug 19, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Just as the power of Shisui's chakra was present in his eyes after being transplanted to both Danzou and Itachi's crow, the power of Itachi's chakra is still there now that they're in Sasuke's eye sockets. Hence, why Sasuke could sense Itachi's douryoku flowing through him–increasing his power–after the transplant.
> 
> But Sasuke has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan. As a Mangekyou Sharingan user, his chakra–the root of his own douryoku–is now acclimating with Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan. This is how the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan grants greater power. This is why the Tomoe Seals of both users' Mangekyou Sharingan combine, even though they are still Itachi's eyes. This explains the appearance of the creature with two sets of Sharingan depicted in Chapter 386 behind Madara. This is why the recovery is taking so much longer than other eye transplants we've witnessed thus far. And this is why this _"exchange"_ of Mangekyou Sharingan, to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, can only be done between immediate family due to their compatibility.
> 
> ...



It could also be possible that Madara just straight up plucked the eyes out of his brother and just left him to die, that's what Itachi seemed to imply at least.


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## SaiST (Aug 20, 2011)

King Of Gamesxx said:


> It could also be possible that Madara just straight up plucked the eyes out of his brother and just left him to die, that's what Itachi seemed to imply at least.


Right, forgot to mention that. Very probable, especially since we know Madara was willing to twist the facts in order to gain Sasuke's trust.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Aug 20, 2011)

Wait a minute, if it was that simple that you just take someone's eyes and replace it with your own...

why wouldn't everyone just trade eyes?

IE:
Izuna gives Madara his eyes, Madara gives Izuna his eyes, both gain EMS
Itachi gives Sasuke his eyes, Sasuke gives Itachi his eyes, both gain EMS

No need for everyone to kill each other through the history of the clan like Itachi told Sasuke.


No, I think either Sasuke has 4 eyeballs in those sockets of his, or he somehow combines them


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## SaiST (Aug 20, 2011)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Wait a minute, if it was that simple that you just take someone's eyes and replace it with your own...
> 
> why wouldn't everyone just trade eyes?
> 
> ...


Please review my discussion with FallenAngelII in the thread I linked to above. The taboo nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan in general, combined with the strict requirements of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, are perfectly sensible reasons as to why Madara and Sasuke have been the only success stories thus far.

To begin with, those capable of awakening the Sharingan within the Uchiha clan are rare. Those with the capacity to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, even moreso. And then to expedite this process, they must betray, and murder those closest to them–likely fellow clansmen or villagers–to awaken it's power. And to make that power permanent, they can only take the Mangekyou Sharingan of those with close blood ties to them... Think about it, considering those circumstances, what are the chances of things falling into place so conveniently?

Explanations for Madara and Izuna have already been laid out earlier in this thread. But in Sasuke and Itachi's case... Itachi simply didn't _want_ the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. Through his death, there were other things Itachi intended to do for Sasuke's sake; which included setting up the conditions for his little brother to awaken his own Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## DragonOfChoas (Aug 23, 2011)

King Of Gamesxx said:


> It could also be possible that Madara just straight up plucked the eyes out of his brother and just left him to die, that's what Itachi seemed to imply at least.



It would seem odd thinking he could do it when his brother was on par with him. If Madara was at a weakened state he couldn't have been able to take his brother eyes. 

And it seems EMS is the merging of both eyes. It's seems to be the only logical explanation as to why they can't just swap eyes.


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## Shidoshi (Aug 23, 2011)

King Of Gamesxx said:


> It could also be possible that Madara just straight up plucked the eyes out of his brother and just left him to die, that's what Itachi seemed to imply at least.


The Databook confirms Izuna willingly giving Madara his eyes and dying in battle later on.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 23, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Just as the power of Shisui's chakra was present in his eyes after being transplanted to both Danzou and Itachi's crow, the power of Itachi's chakra is still there now that they're in Sasuke's eye sockets. Hence, why Sasuke could sense Itachi's douryoku flowing through him?increasing his power?after the transplant.
> 
> But Sasuke has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan. As a Mangekyou Sharingan user, his chakra?the root of his own douryoku?is now acclimating with Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan. This is how the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan grants greater power. This is why the Tomoe Seals of both users' Mangekyou Sharingan combine, even though they are still Itachi's eyes. This explains the appearance of the creature with two sets of Sharingan depicted in Chapter 386 behind Madara. This is why the recovery is taking so much longer than other eye transplants we've witnessed thus far. And this is why this _"exchange"_ of Mangekyou Sharingan, to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, can only be done between immediate family due to their compatibility.
> 
> ...





SaiST said:


> Please review my discussion with FallenAngelII in the thread I linked to above. The taboo nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan in general, combined with the strict requirements of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, are perfectly sensible reasons as to why Madara and Sasuke have been the only success stories thus far.
> 
> To begin with, those capable of awakening the Sharingan within the Uchiha clan are rare. Those with the capacity to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, even moreso. And then to expedite this process, they must betray, and murder those closest to them?likely fellow clansmen or villagers?to awaken it's power. And to make that power permanent, they can only take the Mangekyou Sharingan of those with close blood ties to them... Think about it, considering those circumstances, what are the chances of things falling into place so conveniently?
> 
> Explanations for Madara and Izuna have already been laid out earlier in this thread. But in Sasuke and Itachi's case... Itachi simply didn't _want_ the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. Through his death, there were other things Itachi intended to do for Sasuke's sake; which included setting up the conditions for his little brother to awaken his own Mangekyou Sharingan.



      Danzo stole Shisui's actually eye an transplanted it in his own head. Shisui gave Itachi his other eye than commited suicide, Itachi put said eye in the crow. Shisui's body had no eyes.
      After Itachi's death Madara removed Itachi's eyes from his body, at the smallest sign of blindness Sasuke asked Madara to transplant the eyes.
     Yes he still had his MS when he asked Madara to transplant Itachi's MS, just like Madara still had his MS when he took izuna's MS. That chapter said Madara did everything he could but failed, takin by despair he was possesed by the MS seaching for a new source of light. he plucked his brothers eyes from his head. By changing host the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguihable light. The creature behind Madara has both sets of eyes, the same with the creature behind Itachi it had one set an empty sockets for the second set. The creature represents the Uchiha with both eye sets in one head.
     Your right about the base sharingan, but the MS is not unlocked by betraying an murdering someone close. Its unlocked by the emotional stress of losing someone close to you. When Itachi told Sasuke about Madara and Izuna training he said they unlocked sharingan, they kept pushing each other to get stronger at that point it showed blood splatter than he said they than gained the MS. They were the closest person each other had but both of them lived to get MS. When the 3 police questioned Itachi about Shisui's death, he gave them a speech about misconceptions and illusions. He never said he didn't do it. We find out shisui commited suicide, He was the closet person to Itachi. he didn't betray an murder him. The last is Sasuke. We see the exact moment when he unlocks his MS, when Madara is telling him Itachi's secret mission. If it was when he betrayed an murdered someone close to him, it would have unlocked when he murdered Orochimaru(or when he thought he murdered Orochimaru) He first reveals his MS at the beach.


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## Shidoshi (Aug 23, 2011)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Wait a minute, if it was that simple that you just take someone's eyes and replace it with your own...
> 
> why wouldn't everyone just trade eyes?


Because the odds of finding a sibling with Mangekyou of their own...assuming you didn't get yours from killing them or witnessing their death, in order to swap eyes with was and is pretty rare.



> _IE:
> Izuna gives Madara his eyes, Madara gives Izuna his eyes, both gain EMS_


Neither of them would have known that Madara would gain the EMS, because at that time, they were the first people (and possibly only Uchiha) to have gained the Mangekyou Sharingan to begin with.  Izuna offered them up only to restore his older brother's eyesight; he did not and could not have known that *that* would have happened.  He died shortly after on the battlefield.  We don't if Izuna was still alive when Madara discovered his "new" eyes.


> _Itachi gives Sasuke his eyes, Sasuke gives Itachi his eyes, both gain EMS_


Sasuke didn't gain his Mangekyou until *after* Itachi died.  The swap needs to occur between two siblings with Mangekyou Sharingan.  Sasuke taking Itachi's eyes without Mangekyou of his own would do no good, and Itachi taking Sasuke's non-Mangekyou eyes would do him no good, either.

Seriously; do people just not read anymore?


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## SaiST (Aug 23, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> The creature represents the Uchiha with both eye sets in one head.


... Or it could represent the conjoined douryoku of an Uchiha that has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan, and taken a family member's Mangekyou Sharingan through a simple transplant, as I laid out in my earlier post.

I'm honestly not sure what the point of the earlier part of your post was. I'm assuming it was all to lead up to the point of yours I quoted above, but none of it actually contests the information I laid out before.



> _Your right about the base sharingan, but the MS is not unlocked by betraying an murdering someone close. Its unlocked by the emotional stress of losing someone close to you._


_"...to *expedite* this process..."_

Yes, it's true that simply _witnessing_ the death of those closest to them, without sullying their own hands, could do the job; but clearly not everyone was willing to wait for a _chance_ for things to take a more _"natural"_ turn. As Itachi pointed out, since Madara's time, the Uchiha have been killing those closest to them in order to awaken their Mangekyou Sharingan. Lots of sacrifices piled up over the decades for this very reason, with even more blood shed through _failed_ attempts to make it's power permanent.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but were you implying that witnessing the death of soley those absolutely closest to them wasn't necessary? That witnessing the death of *anyone* that's close enough to them to induce a strong enough emotional reaction can trigger the awakening of the Mangekyou Sharingan?... If so, even though it hasn't necessarily been confirmed, I can't say I disagree with you.

That said, we don't know if Izuna was the person closest to Madara, and conversely. And Sasuke felt nothing for Orochimaru, despite their relationship as student and teacher. There was never a strong chance of Sasuke awakening his own Mangekyou Sharingan by killing Orochimaru.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 23, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> We see the exact moment when he unlocks his MS, when Madara is telling him Itachi's secret mission. If it was when he betrayed an murdered someone close to him, it would have unlocked when he murdered Orochimaru(or when he thought he murdered Orochimaru) He first reveals his MS at the beach.



Thats not true.

By Madara and Itachi's admissions, Itachi's death would automatically give him his MS. He didn't need to learn the truth.
Itachi was his brother, whether he was bound by hatred or not, Itachi was close to him.

Sasuke simply chose to activate his MS @ that point, not because that was the exact moment he awakened it..


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## Blaze (Aug 23, 2011)

I also think it's a transplant and the design happens because the body/blood of Madara/Sasuke adjusts to Izuna/Itachi's eyes.


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## HighLevelPlayer (Aug 24, 2011)

I always thought EMS was a fusion of the irises of two mangekyo sharingan eyes. But SaiST's "swap" thing makes more sense.

The transplanted eyes probably get morphed into combining the first pair's design by the body of the Uchiha who is receiving the eyes and their own original design. In the case of someone who is not closely related enough, the eyes are . 

In case I didn't make much sense:

Sasuke gets Itachi's eyes
Sasuke's body try to change the design of Itachi's eyes back to Sasuke's eye's original design, but only succeed half-way
This strange mutation of the eye results in the technique unique to the EMS


In the case of someone who tries this with someone who isn't their sibling (which I will be calling Uchiha A and Uchiha B:
Uchiha A gets Uchiha B's eyes
Uchiha A's body completely rejects Uchiha B's eyes because they're not closely related enough


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## Ankit (Aug 24, 2011)

Then why didnt Izuna got EMS. Madara eyes were there for him.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 24, 2011)

SaiST said:


> ... Or it could represent the conjoined douryoku of an Uchiha that has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan, and taken a family member's Mangekyou Sharingan through a simple transplant, as I laid out in my earlier post.
> 
> I'm honestly not sure what the point of the earlier part of your post was. I'm assuming it was all to lead up to the point of yours I quoted above, but none of it actually contests the information I laid out before.
> 
> ...





Grimmjowsensei said:


> /thread
> edit :
> 
> 
> ...



   @ SaiST I put both of your post and explained each part, I just can't break up the qoutes and put my explanation in between 

    From your qoutes you say it takes *One set of eyes and the power from the second set of eyes*. You said Madara *got rid of/hidden* his eyes and just put in Izuna. If that was the case than that would mean Sasuke got rid of/hidden his eyes and Itachi would of did the same by just putting in Sasuke's eyes(which were not MS at the time) and discarding his eyes. Before Itachi died he *GAVE* sasuke his eye power already, on top of that his eyes were powerless(they were white as the sharingan had faded). The only thing that was left was the actual eye. If he just needed his MS plus Itachi' power to become EMS, when he unlock his MS it would of immediately became EMS. That would mean Madara's EMS( Izuna's slightly damaged MS with Madara's damaged MS power) is different than Sauke's EMS( Sasuke's slightly damaged MS with Itachi's damaged MS power). They still would be different it Madara's EMS( Izuna's slightly damaged MS with Madara's damaged MS power) an Sasuke's EMS( Itachi's damaged MS with Sasuke's slightly damaged MS power) if it was a transplant/exchange in your words(Sidenote: We do not know how bad Izuna's eyes were, if they were worser than Sasukes or not). The creature represents the only situation that fits both case evenly, The Uchiha his both MS and the power from both eyes(whether one or both eyes are damaged). 

    Your right the word *close* was a bad word to use. The better thing to say is *stronger bond*. When Itachi told Sasuke about Madara and Izuna during the whole story he constantly implied they were the close(they had a strong bond), how they were equal in everyway, they trained together, they pushed each other to do their best, they took control of the clan together(with Madara the leader), even that Madara asked for  forgiveness for taking Izuna's eyes( something he didn't do in his own telling of the story). When Madara told the story he said Izuna was ok (even though he showed remorse). This is also true for Itachi and Shishui out of everyone in the clan his strongset bond was with Shisui, the person that taught him his ideals, the one he looked up to as an older brother and a mentor. At that time Orochimaru was his strongest bond(even if it was a weak bond).That was why Madara told Sasuke the story of Itachi's life, to tell him why he had to lie to Sasuke(Itachi really was his kind older brother, but lied and said it was a show to measure his capabilites). Sasuke found out he was right about Itachi an that bond was always there and stronger than he thought.

 @ Grimmjowsensei  If that were true when he "beat" Itachi they would of unlocked after the fight, but it took Madara's story revealing everything Itachi tried io hide, to open Sasuke's eyes to the truth of the situation. In Chapter 400 page 16 panel 2 it shows his eye "opening" after 4 chapters of his reality of things were shown to be illusions, at the beach he revealed his MS impling his eyes are open and he sees everything clearly now. Well thats what that part symbolized to me


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## SaiST (Aug 24, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> @ SaiST I put both of your post and explained each part, I just can't break up the qoutes and put my explanation in between
> 
> From your qoutes you say it takes *One set of eyes and the power from the second set of eyes*. You said Madara *got rid of/hidden* his eyes and just put in Izuna. If that was the case than that would mean Sasuke got rid of/hidden his eyes and Itachi would of did the same by just putting in Sasuke's eyes(which were not MS at the time) and discarding his eyes.


Pretty much... I think. I'm kind of decyphering your posts here, bro.



> _Before Itachi died he *GAVE* sasuke his eye power already_


The douryoku he gave Sasuke was , that was set to release upon the sight of Madara's Sharingan. He didn't give Sasuke his entire set of Mangekyou Sharingan techniques, it was more like using Sasuke's eye as a medium to cast Amaterasu on Madara as soon as the pre-specified conditions were met.



> _on top of that his eyes were powerless(they were white as the sharingan had faded). The only thing that was left was the actual eye. If he just needed his MS plus Itachi' power to become EMS, when he unlock his MS it would of immediately became EMS. That would mean Madara's EMS( Izuna's slightly damaged MS with Madara's damaged MS power) is different than Sauke's EMS( Sasuke's slightly damaged MS with Itachi's damaged MS power). They still would be different it Madara's EMS( Izuna's slightly damaged MS with Madara's damaged MS power) an Sasuke's EMS( Itachi's damaged MS with Sasuke's slightly damaged MS power) if it was a transplant/exchange in your words(Sidenote: We do not know how bad Izuna's eyes were, if they were worser than Sasukes or not). The creature represents the only situation that fits both case evenly, The Uchiha his both MS and the power from both eyes(whether one or both eyes are damaged)._


You'll have to excuse me for asking, but I'm having a somewhat difficult time following your words here.

You're basically questioning how Itachi's eyes would benefit Sasuke through a simple transplant if their _"light"_ had already been exhausted, right? If so, that's already been touched on earlier in the thread as well.

_"By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguishable light!"_

The transplant permanently *restores* the eyes' lost light. And as I pointed out in the thread I linked to earlier, I suspect that this may very well be part of the reason Sasuke's recovery seems to be taking so long, with the way Itachi's eyesight had deteriorated as far as it did.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 24, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> @ Grimmjowsensei  If that were true when he "beat" Itachi they would of unlocked after the fight, but it took Madara's story revealing everything Itachi tried io hide, to open Sasuke's eyes to the truth of the situation. In Chapter 400 page 16 panel 2 it shows his eye "opening" after 4 chapters of his reality of things were shown to be illusions, at the beach he revealed his MS impling his eyes are open and he sees everything clearly now. Well thats what that part symbolized to me



I understand what you are saying. 
However you should read these parts : 

there were things I wanted to for Sasuke with my death"

and 

there were things I wanted to for Sasuke with my death"

and 

there were things I wanted to for Sasuke with my death"

Probably these parts will clear things out.

Itachi planned to give Sasuke MS with his death. Madara confirms it. It isn't Madara's story that unlocked the MS.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 25, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Pretty much... I think. I'm kind of decyphering your posts here, bro.
> 
> 
> *The douryoku he gave Sasuke was *, that was set to release upon the sight of Madara's Sharingan. *He didn't give Sasuke his entire set of Mangekyou Sharingan techniques,* it was more like using Sasuke's eye as a medium to cast Amaterasu on Madara as soon as the pre-specified conditions were met.
> ...



 I have to disagree with the bold part about the eye powers. If you read chapter 397 The Man That Know The Truth About Itachi page 10-11( more specifically the last panel on page 10 to panel 3 on page 11) Madara said "Itachi did something to you just before he died, right?" Sasuke remembers something it shows the flashback of Itachi poking Sasuke's forehead." Somehow at the last second, *He transferred all his eye techniques into you*." Danzo confirms this. When he and Sasuke fought he comments on Amaterasu and how Sasukes Tsukiyomi is inferior to Itachi's Tsukiyomi( Madara agrees with Danzo, but states that sasuke knows how to use it even though its weaker).

  To the bold part about the eye transplant, thats not what I meant. I was showing parts and explaining why it takes *two sets of eyes*. In your earlier post you said Madara and Izuna were the first to unlock MS so they won't know what to do when they lost their light. This is true an I agree. 

 In chapter 386 My new light full page 7 Itachi said Madara lost his light and tried everything to get it back but failed,( in panel 5 the important part) Itachi said " *He fell into despair. And finally possesed by the Mangeko, grasping for a new light*...".  On page 8 " *He plucked both eyes out his youger brother's head. Light returned to Madara world... and the darkness never came again*". Then the sentence you quoted. "*By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguishable light*." *No were does it say Madara removed his own eyes* he just *transplanted in Izuna's eyes*. The creature with the four eyes behind the sentence you quoted is the visual representation of the Uchiha with both sets of eyes. *Itachi had the same demon but two of the eye sockets was empty*(were Sasuke's MS would have went but he didn't have MS, so Itachi died an gave his MS techinques to Sasuke. See above for chapter) Madara took Itachi's MS from Itachi's dead body . When Sasuke showed the slightest sign of losing his light , *he asked Madara to transplant Itachi's MS*. There was no reason to remove Sasuke's eyes as he would need them to make EMS, because it takes both sets of MS.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 25, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I understand what you are saying.
> However you should read these parts :
> 
> there were things I wanted to for Sasuke with my death"
> ...



     That is my point Madara showed him the truth, the last page you posted showed his sharingan "break through to a new level of power"( the black and white picture of the sharingan with cracks around it). In Chapter 549 Itachi's Question starting from page 6 Itachi ask about Sasuke and why he didn't return to the village? When Naruto tells him Madara told his secret he was surprised, he was mad Madara knew and told Sasuke to keep it secret.

    The Amaterasu trap was plan A just in case that didn't work The Crow was Plan B(we find this out in Chapter 550 Koto Amatsukami), from what he said when he gave the crow to Naruto( I pray that you never have to use this, His surprise in chapter 549, and the comment he makes in chapter 550 page 11 panel 4) he thought it would not come to plan B. He never meant for Sasuke to get MS( well not that soon) or for Sasuke to talk to Madara. Sasuke was suppose to kill Madara with the Amaterasu trap and return to the village a hero restoring the Uchiha clan( if he wanted to give Sasuke more that will be explain, and if Sasuke were to unlock MS later he would have Itachi's MS. But it didn't happen that way.)

    When he revealed his MS at the beach( I used that symbolism for Sasuke's point of view, we know Sasuke is being malipulated), Madara made that "Just as planned" face. After that first thing Madara did was make Sasuke go after Bee, than he made him attack the kages, and after that fight Danzo. The first two fight there was no reason to have Sasuke fight as he had better people for those jobs. Kisame to get Bee. Zetsu to distract the Kages as they were not important( he lied to the kages about taking them hostage as he told Zetsu later), When Sasuke killed Danzo Madara made that " Just as planned" face again saying "Thats it". After Sasuke fought Kakashi then Naruto an his eyes showed the slightest sign of damage Sasuke askeed Madara for Itachi's eyes Madara made the "just as planned" face a THIRD TIME, Asking " Are you sure?" Madara knew Sasuke would go all out to fight Naruto( he told Naruto, Kakashi, an Yamato as such after Nagato' death), and he knew Sasuke would lose his sight and he would need Itachi's eyes(its how he lost his sight and took Izuna's eyes to get his EMS). He made Sasuke walk down his path of darkness. Plan B was for this sitaution.

This would have been much easier if I learn how to link pages.


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## SaiST (Aug 25, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I have to disagree with the bold part about the eye powers. If you read chapter 397 The Man That Know The Truth About Itachi page 10-11( more specifically the last panel on page 10 to panel 3 on page 11) Madara said "Itachi did something to you just before he died, right?" Sasuke remembers something it shows the flashback of Itachi poking Sasuke's forehead." Somehow at the last second, *He transferred all his eye techniques into you*."


_* SaiST sighs._

This again... 


*Spoiler*: _Please read the following_ 



This is from over *three years ago*. I can't believe this misconception keeps persisting. See what you've done, Hisshou?! XD



			
				Sho said:
			
		

> > Sho said:
> >
> >
> >
> ...






Notice how the blood from Itachi's fingers flows down to Sasuke's left eye on the 8th page of Chapter 394.
Also, that it's that same eye to soley react once Madara reveals his Sharingan to Sasuke a couple of Chapters later.
And that when this attempt to protect Sasuke from Madara is brought up at least two times later, _"Amaterasu"_ is specifically mentioned.
Finally, review the Databook entry for .
It was a single casting of Amaterasu. *That* was the _"douryoku"_ that Itachi sealed into Sasuke's left eye on that day, and was *released* upon Sasuke catching his first glimpse of Madara's Sharingan. Sasuke is able to use Amaterasu and Susanoo *not* because of anything his older brother sealed into his eye(s), but by the power of his *own* Mangekyou Sharingan.



> _Danzo confirms this. When he and Sasuke fought he comments on Amaterasu and how Sasukes Tsukiyomi is inferior to Itachi's Tsukiyomi( Madara agrees with Danzo, but states that sasuke knows how to use it even though its weaker)._


Danzou never referred to Sasuke's _"Genjutsu"_ as Tsukuyomi. When comparing it to Itachi's Tsukuyomi, he calls it just that: a _"*Genjutsu*"_. And all Madara did is repeat exactly what Danzou said.

You're probably thinking, like so many other people in this community, that there'd be no sense in comparing them if it wasn't Tsukuyomi. But it's completely understandable, as it's a Genjutsu being cast from another Mangekyou Sharingan user that happens to be Itachi's younger brother. And as you pointed out, he also brought up this relationship between them earlier, when Sasuke used Amaterasu.

Tsukuyomi can't be Tsukuyomi without it's defining characteristic, which is the ability to manipulate the victim's perception of time. Sasuke clearly lacks the ability to use his Sharingan Genjutsu in that manner, so he cannot use–or rather, *has not* used Tsukuyomi.



> _In chapter 386 My new light full page 7 Itachi said Madara lost his light and tried everything to get it back but failed,( in panel 5 the important part) Itachi said " *He fell into despair. And finally possesed by the Mangeko, grasping for a new light*...".  On page 8 " *He plucked both eyes out his youger brother's head. Light returned to Madara world... and the darkness never came again*". Then the sentence you quoted. "*By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguishable light*." *No were does it say Madara removed his own eyes* he just *transplanted in Izuna's eyes*._


Dude...

Why would the author have to go out of his way to say that Madara and Sasuke's eyes were removed before they transplanted their brothers' eyes? When you think of an _"organ transplant"_, what immediately comes to mind?



Plus, if this was some kind of physical fusion of eyes, why not say _"...*both Madara and his younger brother's eyes* found an inextinguishable light"_ instead of: _"By *changing hosts*, the *younger brother's eyes* found an inextinguishable light"_?



> _The creature with the four eyes behind the sentence you quoted is the visual representation of the Uchiha with both sets of eyes._




Y'know, a perfectly reasonable explanation for the creature behind Madara with two sets of Sharingan–amongst other things–that fits perfectly in line with what the manga has shown us regarding other examples of eye transplants. No indication of any kind of eyeball smashin' going on.


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## Shidoshi (Aug 25, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I have to disagree with the bold part about the eye powers. If you read chapter 397 The Man That Know The Truth About Itachi page 10-11( more specifically the last panel on page 10 to panel 3 on page 11) Madara said "Itachi did something to you just before he died, right?" Sasuke remembers something it shows the flashback of Itachi poking Sasuke's forehead." Somehow at the last second, *He transferred all his eye techniques into you*." Danzo confirms this. When he and Sasuke fought he comments on Amaterasu and how Sasukes Tsukiyomi is inferior to Itachi's Tsukiyomi( Madara agrees with Danzo, but states that sasuke knows how to use it even though its weaker).


Why do people still believe this?  Hell, the Databook already explained that it wasn't "*all his eye techniques*", but "eye power", and that eye power was the Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu.

It's why it took on Itachi's Mangekyou pupil shape.



> _In chapter 386 My new light full page 7 Itachi said Madara lost his light and tried everything to get it back but failed,( in panel 5 the important part) Itachi said " *He fell into despair. And finally possesed by the Mangeko, grasping for a new light*...".  On page 8 " *He plucked both eyes out his youger brother's head. Light returned to Madara world... and the darkness never came again*". Then the sentence you quoted. "*By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes found an inextinguishable light*." *No were does it say Madara removed his own eyes* he just *transplanted in Izuna's eyes*. The creature with the four eyes behind the sentence you quoted is the visual representation of the Uchiha with both sets of eyes. *Itachi had the same demon but two of the eye sockets was empty*(were Sasuke's MS would have went but he didn't have MS, so Itachi died an gave his MS techinques to Sasuke. See above for chapter) Madara took Itachi's MS from Itachi's dead body . When Sasuke showed the slightest sign of losing his light , *he asked Madara to transplant Itachi's MS*. There was no reason to remove Sasuke's eyes as he would need them to make EMS, because it takes both sets of MS._


1)  Where is that actually stated?  And don't say "Itachi's flashback", because the Databook invalidates the parts of Itachi's story *directly* pertinent to Madara and his brother.

Itachi spent his entire life lying to Sasuke, and wanted him to stay away from Madara at all costs.

2)  The Databook already explains that Izuna willingly gave up his eyes in order to restore his brother's (and Clan leader's) eyesight.  He did not and *could* not know that a *transplanted* Mangekyou between siblings would result in making the eye permanent, and, according to the Databook, he died in battle, blind.  Nothing in Izuna's Databook entry is listed about his eyes fusing with Madara's blind ones.

There's nothing explicit in the manga that says the eyes are physically joined or mashed into a weird amalgam.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 27, 2011)

Shidoshi said:


> Why do people still believe this?  Hell, the Databook already explained that it wasn't "*all his eye techniques*", but "eye power", and that eye power was the Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu.
> 
> It's why it took on Itachi's Mangekyou pupil shape.
> 
> ...



 To Answer the first part(*this is @ Shidoshi & SaiSt*), I have read 5 different versions(different translators) of chapter 478 to see if they match(I might of read a bad translation). In most of them on page 2 Danzo *is congratulationing or commending Sasuke*(3 & 2 respectively) *for casting or trapping*(3 & 2 respectively) *in an illusion*(this word was used 5 times Genjutsu was used 0 times). on page 3 Danzo said *That's nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi*(3 start with thats nothing 2 with campared they all say *Itachi's Tsukiyomi*, the second part of Danzo statement is), *which could control the length of the illusion*( that is used 3 times, the 2 others are more detailed) *where he could alter your perception of time at his whim... your as far below him as the land is below the sky*(both sets are saying the same thing, the latter with an insult).
In Chapter 480 page 4 Madara said( In all 5 they say the same thing) *Danzo... It's just as you said. It's no match for Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which can control time...* On page 6 Madara said(again the same all 5 times) *It's a weak genjutsu that doesn't last long. The trick is knowing when to use it... Not long before they stabbed each other. Sasuke cast a genjutsu on you...* Sidenote *on page 12 both Madara and Danzo call Shisui's MS Genjutsu*.
 The reason I mentioned Shisui's MS(all 5 were the same by the way, I will not mention this again unless the translations are different) is because we only know of 2 confirmed MS genjutsu Tsukiyomi & Koto Amatsukami(the whole battle Sasuke only did sword techniques, chidori, and MS techniques(Susano'O, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi) as he used his MS to do these moves). The genjutsu Sasuke did was compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, why not Shisui's MS genjutsu? *I'll compare what Sasuke's MS "genjutsu" did to Itachi's & Shusui's MS genjutsu*. It comes from a MS eye(*all three do*), Its effect was instant(*Sasuke's was, Itachi"s was, Shisui''s at the time was used by Danzo at the kage meeting didn't seem instant at the moment as Mifune was still considering Raikage when Ao caught him, that would be a no. Just recently we learned what it looks like let alone its effect and that its instant. At the time with what we knew Sasuke's was more like Itachi's than Shisui's. Now we know their the same*.) What is the effect of each MS genjutsu.(*what was suggested and what we recently found out about is that Shisui's MS genjutsu does is subtly commands the target. Both Sasuke's MS genjutsu & Itachi's MS genjutsu casts or traps the person in an illusion. Both Madara and Danzo confirm this, both also confirm that the only difference between the MS genjutsus Itachi's can control the time of the illusion and Sasuke's can't. That is why Madara said even though Sasuke's is weaker, he is good enough to use it(also the insults Danzo said in the more detailed translation*). The biggest point is that both Danzo & Madara say "*Itachi's Tsukiyomi*"(even though the Danzo's wordings were different *Itachi's Tsukiyomi* was common in all translations). If it was different Danzo & Madara would of said something like " This genjutsu that your("Sasuke" is what Madara would say as he was not talking directly to Sasuke) using is nowhere near the level of Itachi's genjutsu, Tsukiyomi.(add second part)",but they don't its "*compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi*". A bunch of jutsu are referred like that(like Naruto's Rasengan he uses clones while Minato's,Jiraiya's, & Kakashi's Rasengan don't. Madara's neo paths & Nagato' paths. Gai's 8 gates & Lee's 8 gates. Oonki's dust element & Muu's dust element. Hashirama's mokuton & Yamato's mokuton. Kabuto's Edo tensei & Orochimaru's Edo Tensei. And a ton of others), each performed alittle different & with varying power levels. Does that make those jutsus different? If Sasuke's MS genjutsu is proven not to be Tsukiyomi, I'll be the first to admit I'm wrong. But it fits.

 This part is @ Shidohi. & SaiST. I assume you mean when I said Madara tried everything to return his light? Or when he was Possesed by the MS? or both? And *I never said it was Itachi's flashback*, I said Itachi said, to be more accurate he put Sasuke in a Tsukiyomi(whlie Sasuke can only put targets in the illusion for short times(like when he made Danzo see Itachi than hit him with Amaterasu & when he made him see the eye on his hand open right before he stabbed him), Itachi controls the time(like when he tortured both Sasuke & Kakashi for three days each). In this illusion(in chapter 386 My New Light starting on page 4-16) he shows Sasuke, Madara and Izuna training, unlock sharingan, unlock MS, gain control of the Uchiha clan. Than he talks about Madara noticing changes in his body, losing his light, trying to do everything to get his light back, falling into despair being possessed by his MS to gain a new light, and taking his brothers eyes. He got EMS. Itachi talks about the clan(" Obviously this "exchange" could only be done by clansmen. And simply gaining another's eyes didn't equate to gaining this power. Many sacrifies piled up over the clan's history... Now you know why.(this translation is 4 times the last is). ("However such an exchange could only ever take place between members of the same clan. Besides which, it was not as if just anyone could obtain new power in this way. That much is clear from the many sacrifies that followed.") basically the same thing.) Itachi tells how Madara conquered other clans, forms Konoha with Hashirama senju, Fights him for the title of Hokage, loses at VOTE, forms Akatsuki, Attackes with the fox 16 years ago, loses again. He calls Madara a shell, he yells "Sasuke. You will become my new light" with that evil smile(that was a illusion), He reveals his demon with two empty eye sockets. He grabs Sasuke an is about to plucks out one of his eyes. Sasuke has a flashback. *Itachi stops Tsukiyomi* Sasuke takes off his headban & cloak. Itachi asks "*I take it... You saw my true self clearly*." Sasuke said " ... It was for this moment, Huh". *All that in one Tsukiyomi*. When Madara fills in the story, some of the things he talk about are things Sasuke shouldn't know(like Itachi's secret mission), some are lies(like he didn't use the fox attack to attack 16 years ago, guessed by Jiraiya proven by Minato). The only thing that is alittle different is if he took his brothers eyes or if they were given to him.

 This is @ Shidoshi. I know Izuna died in battle this is what Madara said. But We do not know when Izuna died? Or how long it took for Madara to transplant the eye? Did Madara get EMS before or after Izuna died? Where Madara and Izuna fighting in the same battle or was it a seperate battles that Izuna died in? Did Izuna die protecting Madara while he healed, If not why did Madara not give Izuna the eye he supposedly got rid of? Izuna's death is to vague to answer these question. We need more info. You referenced the databook alot. The databook just puts everything we learned in neat sections, as we learn new things the data in these books will change an be updated. And we still have things to learn like Izuna's death, about Sasuke's MS jutsu and the EMS in general. You posted "There's nothing explicit in the manga that says the eyes are physically joined or mashed into a weird amalgam." The same can be said about the opposite, as we don't have enough info on EMS. *The databooks are good for remembering old info not learning new info*.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Aug 27, 2011)

This is @ SaiST. You linked three pages, the first was a repost of one of your older post(if your TNJ would have worked on me than we wouldn't be having this little debate, if it didn't work on me than it won't work on me now  besides I have a strong TNJ,too  ). The second you post a description of transplant for this world, not the Naruto world. There are a couple of transplants that happen in the Naruto world that do not fit that description(like when Orochimaru "transplants" his soul into someones body their soul is dimished than stuck in a seperate genjutsu dimension, both souls are still in the same body. The jinchuuriki get a seperate chakra(even though the bijuu have a mind they are still just massive amounts of chakra). A couple of people had Hashirama's cells transplanted into their bodies. Edo Tensei are basically souls transplanted over live people. Ino transplants her soul into people to control their body(the souls are still in their bodies). Genjutsu users transplant their chakra into their targets to control their minds.The third is a post you had with someone about a ??? symybol people did not understand. You said he translated "the ??? as literally means power of the eye(s) or it can be translated as eye power". And you said That the ??? symbol means dourkoyo which means eye power. You got your answer so you didn't see or notice his mistake, look at his translation again *the ??? as literally means power of the eye(s) or it can be translated as eye power* The first translation *has a Singular AND a Plural* while the second doesn't. How can two things that mean the samething not have BOTH a PLURAL to a SINGULAR? I have seen poster use DOUYOKOS the PLURAL. *So the singulars would be Douryoko means Power of the eye or Eye power, So the plurals would be Douryokos means Power of the eyes or Eye powers.*


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## SaiST (Aug 27, 2011)

​
I'll come back to this discussion when I feel more confident in my ability to address you without coming off as a total douche. Until then, I hope somebody else can help you better understand how the conclusion you came to concerning the term _"douryoku"_ is absolutely wrong.


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## SaiST (Nov 12, 2011)

Continuing where we left off from  thread...​


Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> Yes I know that I have very a little understanding of Japanese, which is why I read the English translations. Yes I also know that the English translations may be mistranslations, which is why in the post in the other thread I stated that I looked at 6 different translations(plus the translation by your friend making it 7). If that many people are wrong about the same thing I might a well fully learn Japanese and translate it myself.


Seven *translations*? Or *scanslations* that have used the same translations?


*Spoiler*: _Because there are only four I'm aware of_ 



_"In his last moments... for your own sake, he channelled the power of his own eyes into you." -*cnet*_

_"In his last moments, he implanted his own eye power into you for your sake." -*tora-chan*_

_"Somehow, at the last second, he transferred all his eye techniques into you." -*hisshou*_

And there's Sho's, of course. I can't find the the spoiler thread in which he posted his original translation, but the  concerns what's relevant to this topic.



As I said before, the context is the key. As long as you understand that there's nothing within the original text to indicate that _"all"_ of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan techniques were handed down to Sasuke, we'll be able to move foward. Without context, with this line alone, there's no telling the extent of what Itachi had given to Sasuke at the end of their fight—it's quite vague.


*Spoiler*: _But, as I explained earlier_ 





> Notice how the blood from Itachi's fingers flows down to Sasuke's left eye on the 8th page of Chapter 394.
> Also, that it's that same eye to soley react once Madara reveals his Sharingan to Sasuke a couple of Chapters later.
> And that when this attempt to protect Sasuke from Madara is brought up at least two times later, _"Amaterasu"_ is specifically mentioned.
> Finally, review the Databook entry for .





... We are given that context from other pages of the manga. And the 3rd Databook finally detailed to us the specific _"douryoku"_ Itachi sealed into Sasuke's left eye. Since this seems to be the crux of your argument against my interpretation of the "swap method" to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, I ask that you reevaluate this matter once you've come to terms with it.

Now, I don't want to come off as insulting, so I'm apologizing beforehand in case I do... I *want* to address the rest of your points; particularly those pertaining to Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Sasuke's Genjutsu. But, I'm having something of an ordeal trying to, uh... *Decypher* them, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. I realize that you're trying to be thorough—and that's good!


*Spoiler*: _Seriously, it is_ 





FFXFan13 said:


> SaiST said:
> 
> 
> > FFXFan13 said:
> ...





But it's also important to be *concise*. It can be difficult to keep a firm grasp of the point you're trying to get across because, honestly, you tend to go out of your way to place an abundant amount of superfluous details while doing so. And it doesn't help that you don't break things off with either paragraphs, or quotes more frequently, like others who also have a tendency to post in this manner.

Concerning the ongoing debate about Sasuke's possession of Tsukuyomi though, I think it'd be best that I link to  , which pretty much compiles all of the arguments for, and against it. I pretty much said my piece and abandoned it. But , mentioned from an even earlier thread, does a pretty good job of summing up why a lot of people misinterpret Danzou's comment as an absolute confirmation of Sasuke casting Tsukuyomi.


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## -ScRaTcH- (Nov 12, 2011)

Except you need 4 eyes for EMS, mate.​


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## Divinstrosity (Nov 12, 2011)

This evolution of the sharingan jazz is boring. 

It'd be very hypocritical for people to accuse Kishimoto of being unoriginal with Naruto and his Rasengan variants, and not think the same of the sharingan.

Though the Rinnegan has different techniques, to me, it is nothing but more eyeball haxx. 

Meteors? Really, Kishimoto? 

What's the freakin' point of attacking with a sword when you can manipulate gravity, and create meteors.


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## SaiST (Nov 12, 2011)

-ScRaTcH- said:


> Except you need 4 eyes for EMS, mate.​


Says who?

Also, it's good to see you've moved on from _"son"._ *Progress!*



Divinstrosity said:


> What's the freakin' point of attacking with a sword when you can manipulate gravity, and create meteors.


Cardiovascular exercise?

Mages need to stay in shape too.


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## Daylight (Nov 12, 2011)

Badassery?


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## BrokenBonds (Nov 12, 2011)

Eh, I've always just assumed you need to merge two Mangekyou Sharingans to create the Eternal Mangekyou... I don't see how just swapping makes any sense. and would result in the Eternal Mangekyou.

If it's just a simple swap then why didn't Izuna just take Madara's eyes? And what was with this thing:​


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## SaiST (Nov 12, 2011)

... All of that has been covered earlier in the thread, BrokenBonds.

In the time I'm assuming it took you to crop, upload, and post those images, you could've read posts , and  and had your answers.


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## BrokenBonds (Nov 12, 2011)

SaiST said:


> ... All of that has been covered earlier in the thread, BrokenBonds.
> 
> In the time I'm assuming it took you to crop, upload, and post those images, you could've read posts , and  and had your answers.


I've seen the jist of the argument many times before, and I'm still not convinced. I really doubt Kishimoto put _that_ much thought into how one obtains the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan nor do I believe he intends on explaining it to us. There's a reason why most people initially believe the operation is simply the merging of the two eyes, it's because it's a simpler explanation where one doesn't need to interpret anything. In your eyes the swap could be a very simple explanation, in my eyes it just seems too unnecessarily complex over something Kishimoto, most likely, gave no thought too.

It's also more preferable in my eyes. I don't want Sasuke's cherished eyes, the same eyes we've watched matured all the way through the course of the series, sit in a jar for the rest of the series, unmentioned. Yes, the chakra of his Sharingan may still be in his sockets or whatever, but it's not literally his eye, it's his brother. It also just seems way too convenient where both brothers can share in the "light." It's way too convenient for the Uchiha clan who's full of betrayal and hatred.

I can see both sides of the argument, and I think both explanations make sense and, honestly, I wouldn't care if the opposite argument came true. It's just so irrelevant, either way I wouldn't care all too much. For me, it just widdles down to preferences, and I slightly prefer the idea of merging the eyes.

Also, I got the picture on Google Images.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 13, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Continuing where we left off from  thread...​
> Seven *translations*? Or *scanslations* that have used the same translations?
> 
> 
> ...



  I found 6 different translators(it was not easy), the 7th was found the 1 you provided. I've haven't come across the first 2, but the 1st translation, the 3rd(the one I saw) & the one you provided are in the plural. 


  I explained the first 3 points In 397 page 7-10 covers that, page 11 uses the word in a different context. The 4th point Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, my problem with that is that it is still Amaterasu. That's like saying Naruto could learn Shiruken Rasengan if Jiraiya did not give(teach) Naruto Rasengan. Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu is just an upgraded Amaterasu. Sasuke did to Amaterasu, the same thing he did to Chidori earlier. Sasuke just made a jutsu someone gave him an made it more versatile.


  I read Hexa's post & I have to say I don't agree with his explanation or maybe I do it's confusing I would have to explain.


> Hexa
> I bring this up whenever Danzou's statement comes, but there are two things people get confused about with the line. First, it's a continuation of Danzou's previous line, despite there being a page in between the two. Second, the object of the last bit really isn't Sasuke but Sasuke's genjutsu. From adamkun,
> Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
> 
> ...


  Danzou said Genjutsu(in the translation I found it said illusion). Genjutsu is a broad word. Tsukiyomi, Koto Amatsukami, Frog Song, what the Miukage's clam did, are all Genjutsu. The second part is more direct. In all the translation I found the bold read "That's nothing compared to". A big clue is that Danzou is comparing the two genjutsu but the bigger clue is Danou said Itachi's Tsukiyomi.  

*Spoiler*: __ 



I'll use Rasengan as an example. Random ninja to Jiraiya.
  I'll commend you for (being able to) use a ninjutsu on me.
  [The ninjutsu you used on me] and Minato's "Rasengan" that can be used with the thunder god seal at the same time are as different as heaven and earth. Random ninja to Naruto.
  I'll commend you for (being able to) use a ninjutsu on me.
  [The ninjutsu you used on me] and Jiraiya's "Rasengan" that can be used without a clone are as different as heaven and earth.
  I can do one for the other Rasengan users.



Wouldn't a more accurate translation to prove they are different be.
  Danzou: I'll commend you for (being able to) use a genjutsu on me.
  Danzou: [The genjutsu you used on me] and Itachi's genjutsu: "Tsukuyomi", that can freely manipulate genjutsu time are as different as heaven and earth.


  I have to agree have BrokenBonds. The pic he showed is after Madara took Iuna's eyes, in 386 page 13 Itachi had the same thing with two empty sockets, he would need another set of eyes to fill those sockets. Its within reason to think Sasuke would have the same thing and he would need 4 eyes or 2 sets to fill those sockets.


  I apologize for the blocks of post. I've lost a good number of post & had to re-type it and it gets lumped together. I tried to keep it well spaced and as straight to the point as possible.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 14, 2011)

SaiST said:


> It's a transplant. A swap. An exchange... That's how it's been described in the manga and it's supplementary reading.



This should be obvious to everyone by now. I have no idea where this "merger/fusion" nonsense came from in the first place. Eyeballs don't just combine.


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## BlinkST (Nov 14, 2011)

It made sense for a while because of the Housoushi yokai shown with both eyes, but now...


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## SaiST (Nov 14, 2011)

BrokenBonds said:


> I don't see how just swapping makes any sense.





> _I've seen the jist of the argument many times before, and I'm still not convinced._





> _I can see both sides of the argument, and I think both explanations make sense..._


Make up your mind! 



> _I really doubt Kishimoto put that much thought into how one obtains the Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan nor do I believe he intends on explaining it to us. There's a reason why most people initially believe the operation is simply the merging of the two eyes, it's because it's a simpler explanation where one doesn't need to interpret anything. In your eyes the swap could be a very simple explanation, in my eyes it just seems too unnecessarily complex over something Kishimoto, most likely, gave no thought too._




'kay.

​
Man, you're right. This really does seems simple to me, as all I'm doing is sticking to what's been said in the manga... Which is that it's an exchange, in which the *donor's* eyes—not their, *and* the receiver's eyes—are granted eternal _"light"_ upon finding their new hosts. Furthermore, that in order to successfully create this Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, this exchange of Mangekyou Sharingan can only be done between immediate family.

That's what's laid out to us from the offset. But, due to the *results* of this exchange:
The amalgamation of the donor and receiver's Tomoe Seals.
The Housoushi youkai(thanks, Blinx)—acting as something of a visual metaphor of the receiver's power—depicted with one and two sets of Sharingan, before and after the exchange.
The fact that—prior to Sasuke—Madara has been the only one to successfully perfect his Doujutsu, despite all of the attempts that have spanned across nearly a century
... A lot of people are dismissing the prior established information, and choosing to cling to this fabricated concept of eyeballs physically fusing with each other to explain it... Which, as I've said numerous times already, has never been so much as hinted at.

And this is why I contest it so much. There are perfectly sensible explanations for all of them, that are actually rooted in the canon story, and stay consistent with what we've been told, and seen. There's nothing convoluted about it, there's no cypher needed; just look at the facts! Review the prerequisites, look at the other examples of eye transplants... READ THE MANGA!

Chibason, one of the first people I discussed this at length with, was also against the thought of the procedure being a simple exchange, because he didn't think it would be appropiate for a power-up to be gained while losing something... Or something along those lines.

... Even so, he was eventually ... :3​


Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I found 6 different translators(it was not easy), the 7th was found the 1 you provided. I've haven't come across the first 2, but the 1st translation, the 3rd(the one I saw) & the one you provided are in the plural.


I hope you're not confusing translations with scanslations. hisshou's translations were used quite a bit by various groups back then.

Not that it makes much of a difference in this case. You could bring any Japanese speaking user in this thread, and they'll probably tell you the same thing.



> _The 4th point Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, my problem with that is that it is still Amaterasu. That's like saying Naruto could learn Shiruken Rasengan if Jiraiya did not give(teach) Naruto Rasengan. Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu is just an upgraded Amaterasu. Sasuke did to Amaterasu, the same thing he did to Chidori earlier. Sasuke just made a jutsu someone gave him an made it more versatile._


... Oh, wow. You're confusing Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu with Enton: Kagutsuchi.

Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu is essentially a sealing technique, in which Itachi used Sasuke's Sharingan as a medium to cast his Amaterasu upon Madara, once the conditions were met.

Enton: Kagutsuchi is what you were describing. Though  differs.



> _I read Hexa's post & I have to say I don't agree with his explanation or maybe I do it's confusing_


... 



> _Danzou said Genjutsu(in the translation I found it said illusion)_


Genjutsu is literally translated as _"Illusionary Technique"_. Most of the time, at least in hisshou's translations, it is simply translated as _"Illusion"_.



> _Genjutsu is a broad word. Tsukiyomi, Koto Amatsukami, Frog Song, what the Miukage's clam did, are all Genjutsu. The second part is more direct. In all the translation I found the bold read "That's nothing compared to". A big clue is that Danzou is comparing the two genjutsu but the bigger clue is Danou said Itachi's Tsukiyomi.
> 
> *Spoiler*:
> 
> ...


You're missing the point. The line is often taken as direct confirmation that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi, as many are under the impression that Danzou identifies it as such... He doesn't.

He's not saying that Sasuke does *not* possess Tsukuyomi, but he is most definitely not saying that he *does*. It is another case of ambiguity and context. And it is this ambiguity surrounding Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan Genjutsu—the fact that it has never been identified, and lacking Tsukuyomi's defining trait—that has lead so many to believe that he does not possess it.



> _I apologize for the blocks of post. I've lost a good number of post & had to re-type it and it gets lumped together. I tried to keep it well spaced and as straight to the point as possible._


S'cool, you're doing better.


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## DragonOfChoas (Nov 14, 2011)

The main problem with just plain swapping eyes is that it raises the question of what happened to your pair and why on earth you both didn't just swap it. 
Wouldn't it be plain stupid if it could be done like this?


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## SaiST (Nov 14, 2011)

DragonOfChoas said:


> The main problem with just plain swapping eyes is that it raises the question of what happened to your pair and why on earth you both didn't just swap it.
> Wouldn't it be plain stupid if it could be done like this?


​

*Spoiler*: _The prerequisites_ 





SaiST said:


> To create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, there are two important requirements: Both Uchiha must have awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan, and they must be closely related by blood.







*Spoiler*: _Madara, and Izuna_ 





SaiST said:


> Madara and Izuna were the first two to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan. And unless it turns out that Rikudou Sennin's stone tablet made mention of it, they should have had no way of knowing how to perfect their Doujutsu.
> 
> Madara was mostly, or *completely* blind... And desperate. Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan were still functional. Assuming that Tobi's story is true, and Izuna did willingly offer up his eyes to his older brother, he would have had no good reason to take his brother's, as they would have considered them useless. Considering the nature of clans, and the way they like to protect the secrets of their bloodlines, it would've made perfect sense to destroy them at that point. Even if they hadn't destroyed them, Izuna could have already fallen in battle by the time Madara realized the amazing additional benefits of exchanging his brother's eyes with his own.
> 
> But again, this is assuming that Tobi was telling the truth. We know that he was willing to twist the facts a bit in order to gain even a little bit of Sasuke's trust. It's also possible that Madara, being as desperate as he was, simply betrayed his brother.







*Spoiler*: _Sasuke, Itachi, and the rest_ 





SaiST said:


> The taboo nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan in general, combined with the strict requirements of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, are perfectly sensible reasons as to why Madara and Sasuke have been the only success stories thus far.
> 
> To begin with, those capable of awakening the Sharingan within the Uchiha clan are rare. Those with the capacity to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, even moreso. And then to expedite this process, they must betray, and murder those closest to them–likely fellow clansmen or villagers–to awaken it's power. And to make that power permanent, they can only take the Mangekyou Sharingan of those with close blood ties to them... Think about it, considering those circumstances, what are the chances of things falling into place so conveniently?
> 
> Explanations for Madara and Izuna have already been laid out earlier in this thread. But in Sasuke and Itachi's case... Itachi simply didn't _want_ the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan. Through his death, there were other things Itachi intended to do for Sasuke's sake; which included setting up the conditions for his little brother to awaken his own Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 15, 2011)

I see the problem now.  I can't believe I didn't see it. "*Your To Close...*". I'll explain. It's like we are we're looking at the same thing. Your looking at it close up, I'm looking from farther back. "*Your To Close, Take A Step Back"*.  



SaiST said:


> > I hope you're not confusing translations with scanslations. hisshou's translations were used quite a bit by various groups back then.
> 
> 
> I didn't know this, I thought those groups did the translations themselves. PLEASE tell me those plagiarist hacks are NOT getting payed for that??
> ...


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## Faustus (Nov 15, 2011)

*SaiST*, I have a personal question for you  I'll just provide your own opinions on different topics related to sharingan and you just tell if I'm right and that is exactly your thoughts:
1. EMS is not a fusion, it's a result of an exchange
2. Sasuke never possessed Tsukuyomi
3. Totsuka and Yata are separate items which were later added to Itachi's Susanoo, which originally didn't have them. Also, nobody (of MS users) could unlock them just achieving Susanoo.
4. Every MS user can have their unique MS jutsus that are not related to the basic ones (Ama, Tsuki, Susanoo). In fact, there are no basic MS jutsus.
5. After MS jutsu is unlocked, it becomes dependent on the eye it was originally unlocked in, i.e. it is impossible to cast different MS jutsu with different eyes and every case Kishi showed otherwise was just Kishi being bad artist?

Am I correct?


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## 4ghost (Nov 15, 2011)

While I understand the logic behind the theory that the EMS can be formed with just 1 pair of swapped MS eyes, I'm still not inclined to dismiss the theory that it is necessary to physically have both MS eyes for EMS to be gained.

At least for me it makes sense that the EMS can only be gained by the brother to possess both MS eyes.  As others have noted the demon with the 2 pairs of eyes certainly is a reason that I lean toward this theory.  The other reason is that the various translations that I have seen regarding the EMS does not lead me to believe that the "replaced" eye is unimportant in the process.  Granted there are likely still translations I haven't encountered yet and I have yet to review the raw regarding it.

Just as an aside, even if the term transplant were used, that is not really definitive proof that the original eye is completely replaced.  For instance consider kidney transplant or even eye transplant.  In both those cases the recipient will take on from the donor without out right replacing their original organ.


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## Faustus (Nov 16, 2011)

^The only real argument some people have against fusion is that it is medically impossible 
Impossible.
In manga.
In manga full of fiction.
In Kishimoto's manga.
Where toads talk and souls have their own physical manifestations (Oro). Where it is possible to create human-like beings from plants and some DNA (Zetsus). Where eye transplant could be done instantly on the battlefield (Obito-Kakashi). Should I go on?


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## Talis (Nov 16, 2011)

Faustus said:


> @OP
> 1. The state of ET body cannot be changed and Edo jins are bad example because they are simply reflecting Madara's eyes being his "paths".
> 2. It's more likely EMS is a fusion and not a simple replacement.



How do people come with a conlusion like this lol.
We clearly saw Sasuke lying while Tobi was clearly up to exchange the eyes.
The 4 eyed demon beast wasnt even there.
And dont tell me that Tobi put Itachis eyebals through Sasukes eyeballs lol.
That 4 eyed demon beast was more likely presenting Madara+Izuna as a beast.


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## Faustus (Nov 16, 2011)

loool3 said:


> That 4 eyed demon beast was more likely presenting Madara+Izuna as a beast.



How do people come with a conlusion like this lol.



> And dont tell me that Tobi put Itachis eyebals through Sasukes eyeballs lol.


And don't tell me that humans in this manga can't turn into giant white snake or shoot lasers out of their heads  Oh, wait 

There is a jutsu for everything. Chakra can do everything. And to merge 2 eyeballs into one is not that bad comparing to dragging meteorites from the space


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## Talis (Nov 16, 2011)

Faustus said:


> How do people come with a conlusion like this lol.
> 
> 
> And don't tell me that humans in this manga can't turn into giant white snake or shoot lasers out of their heads  Oh, wait
> ...


Where was that statue when Tobi was up to put Itachis eyeballs in Sasukes eye socket lol

So basically you really think Tobi put Itachis eyes right through Sasukes eyes? loll'd.

Well yeah, but where in the manga has it been stated that its a fusing of 2 pair of eyeballs? The only proof you got is that demon statue.
Its basically like this; Sasukes has his own eye balls with his genetic MS design+jutsus, Sasuke puts Itachis MS eyeballs in his eye sockets= Sasuke uses his genetic MS design+skills on Itachis eyeballs to awaken the ''MS'' but since its Itachis MS eyeballs it awakens Itachis MS design and Itachis MS abilities which causes a ''fusion'' between the eyes. 
Quotes are kinda messed up since i dont know how this whole multi quote system works.


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## Faustus (Nov 16, 2011)

loool3 said:


> Where was that statue when Tobi was up to put Itachis eyeballs in Sasukes eye socket lol


 Statue is symbolic, why you are bringing this up again and again  Do you think it is real or what? 



> So basically you really think Tobi put Itachis eyes right through Sasukes eyes? loll'd.


 No, I think he merged their eyes 



> Well yeah, but where in the manga has it been stated that its a fusing of 2 pair of eyeballs? The only proof you got is that demon statue.


 No, this proof is not even secondary (for me). The main proof is merged pattern of EMS (pattern of 2 MS)


> Its basically like this; Sasukes has his own eye balls with his genetic MS design+jutsus, Sasuke puts Itachis MS eyeballs in his eye sockets= Sasuke uses his genetic MS design+skills on Itachis eyeballs to awaken the ''MS'' but since its Itachis MS eyeballs it awakens Itachis MS design and Itachis MS abilities which causes a ''fusion'' between the eyes.


 That "basic" explanation doesn't explain secondary proof - why 2 brothers couldn't just switch their eyes and both would have EMS. Or maybe this proof is the most important   Why all these "killing brothers" through Uchiha history?


> Quotes are kinda messed up since i dont know how this whole multi quote system works.


 I don't use it. I just use [QUOTE /QUOTE] and copy-paste


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 17, 2011)

This is the second part of the post, to be the completion of this

*Spoiler*: __ 





Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I see the problem now.  I can't believe I didn't see it. "*Your To Close...*". I'll explain. It's like we are we're looking at the same thing. Your looking at it close up, I'm looking from farther back. "*Your To Close, Take A Step Back"*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...








Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> First I'll prove why it is highly likely that Sauske has Tsukiyomi(along with what I said about Amaterasu in the 1st part), which in turn will prove what Madara said(Itachi transferred all his eye techniques into you) is True. You brought up & I asked. What do you believe is the Tsukiyomi's defining trait? I'll answer it.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


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## Faustus (Nov 17, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> which in turn will prove what Madara said(Itachi transferred all his eye techniques into you) is True.



Can't you read? Madara didn't say that, it was a mistranslation  And it was explained like over 600 billions times on this and other forums


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## DragonOfChoas (Nov 17, 2011)

SaiST said:


> The prerequisites:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...




You do realize their is one problem with what you are saying right?

Itachi was *blind* and yet Sasuke got EMS.
so if we take your reasons as to why Madara and Izuna didn't swap eyes (because Madara was blind) it doesn't fit with the what the manga has shown.

I assume you can understand my confusion then?​


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## Faustus (Nov 17, 2011)

DragonOfChoas said:


> I assume you can understand my confusion then?



No, he can't. He will say Itachi wasn't blind  He just "felt bad" because he overused his sharingan


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## SaiST (Nov 17, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I didn't know this, I thought those groups did the translations themselves. PLEASE tell me those plagiarist hacks are NOT getting payed for that??


Usually, using someone's translation is perfectly fine, so long as the translator gives their consent, and is at least credited. Sometimes, translations are made available for all to read, but can only be used for scanslation purposes by a specific group; those terms are specified by the translator.

*Did* you check the credits pages of these different scanslations?



> _I'm not denying the translation, that is not my point. My point is that the MAJORITY of them are using Douryoku in the plural. For example the 4 translations you gave(the 3 in you post & the link to the last 1), 3 out of 4 are using Douryoku in the Plural(the 2nd is in the Sinigular). That's why I looked for different groups , I thought they did it themselves. Your point is that the 2nd is right(Douryoku is in the singular, 1 out of 4)._


Recount that. It's two each.

And if you really want some closure on this matter, just bring it up in . Be sure to share the answer with us.



> _I'm not confusing the two._


_"[highlight]Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu[/highlight] is just an [highlight]upgraded Amaterasu[/highlight]."_

Immediately followed by:

_"Sasuke did to Amaterasu, [highlight]the same thing he did to Chidori earlier[/highlight]. Sasuke just made a jutsu someone gave him an made it more versatile."_

*Kagutsuchi* is what allowed him to do _"the same thing he did to Chidori earlier"_. Which was, employing different applications of Keitai Henka—or _Shape Transformation_—to further enhance, and/or diversify an already established technique.

You sure do seem to be mixing them up to me.



> _My point was if Sasuke didn't have the BASE(Amaterasu=the black flames) jutsu, Sasuke would not be able to do either of them. If Itachi didn't give(seal Amaterasu=the black flames in Sasuke's eye) to Sasuke, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu would not happen. If Itachi didn't give(seal Amaterasu=the black flames in Sasuke's eye) to Sasuke, he would not be able to manipulate the black flames later._


Itachi's Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu has nothing to do with Sasuke's ability to cast Amaterasu with his own Mangekyou Sharingan, and by extension, applying Keitai Henka to the black flames with Kagutsuchi. 

Basically, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu = *Itachi*, casting Amaterasu on Tobi, through *Sasuke's* Sharingan.

And there's nothing more to it. I don't know if I can make a more rudimentary example.



> _What do you believe is the Tsukiyomi's defining trait??_


To alter the victim's perception of time, which is what allows it's user to compress hours, or even *days* worth of mental torture in an instant. That is what defines Tsukuyomi. This point is driven home in . 



> _2. It a MS jutsu. This trait eliminates most other genjutsu(as explained in my reference to chapter 257). So far there are only two known MS Genjutsu(Tsukiyomi & Koto Amatsukami)._


But it isn't limited to casting these two, ultimate Genjutsu. Even if the Mangekyou Sharingan is active, lesser Genjutsu can still be employed(with the possibility of being enhanced, due to being cast from the superior Doujutsu), just as we saw when Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke.

But, you probably thought *that* was Tsukuyomi too, didn't you? 



> _3. Tsukiyomi's defining trait, it's instant affect._


Genjutsu has been used to *instantly* restrict movements, lull victims to slumber, or leave them unconscious with potent mental shocks. Normally, these kinds of Genjutsu—provided the recipients are capable enough—can be resisted, or even dispelled with Genjutsu Kai, and their recipients can function normally soon afterwards.

Not the case with Tsukuyomi, and it does more than just bind, or knock folks out.

Genjutsu usually require *real time* hours—*days* worth of mental prodding to shatter an individual's mental fortitude. Tsukuyomi takes all that time, and compresses it to a *real time*, minuscule moment; it is capable of instantly inflicting lasting mental damage that is substantial enough for it's victims to eventually end up *comatose*. That's why it's been called the strongest Genjutsu, and why it can only be dispelled by a skilled, true Sharingan successor.



> _1. Chapter 413 page 8 panel 3 - page 9 panel 6. Sasuke ues it on Bee, as Bee coming at him at full speed. Paralyzing Bee mid-attack, then an instant later gets hit with the lariat._



See the example of *Binding* Genjutsu above.
Review the 3rd Databook's entry for , a particularly powerful type of Binding Genjutsu that both Itachi and Sasuke have cast from their Sharingan in the past.
Notice the similarities shared between their effects, and aspects of their aesthetics.



> _2. Chapter 477 page 15 panel 2 - panel 3. Danzo is caught an seeing Itachi. In chapter 478 page 1 Danzo thinks Itachi uses Amaterasu on him, so he checks the eye to see if he "died". On page 2 panel 1 Danzo said "*Congratulations on casting an illusion on me..*.".
> 3. Chapter 479 page 15 panel 3 - 4. As Sasuke & Danzo are just about to tab each other, Sasuke cast it on Danzo. In chapter 480 page 2 panel s Madara said "*So this is the extent of Sasuke's power..*.". On page 3 - 5 panel 1 Danzo believes that the eye is still open until he realizes he was under a genjutsu. On page 6 panel 3 -6 Madara said "So the last Sharingan must have closed... Not long before they stabbed each other" comments on Sasuke & Danzo "*Sasuke cast a genjutsu on you*"._


So, where is Tsukuyomi's defining trait in all of this? How are you going about trying to reason that Sasuke succeeded in altering Danzou's sense of time, when it's said outright—and even *reiterated* a few chapters later—that he could not?



> _4. This one expands on the 1st trait. It's about the experience of using genjutsu. Most of the ninja that have a genjutsu fighting style or are considered Genjutsu masters are capable of using their genjutsu to it's full potential, whether it's the length of the genjutsu, the details of the genjutsu, its effect of the genjutsu on the target. Basically the overall effectiveness of the genjutsu. Itachi is a genjutsu style fighter, while Sasuke is a ninjutsu style fighter.
> 
> The only difference between Itachi's & Sasuke's is the time control, which translates to their experience with it or their experience with genjutsu in general._


Look, I think it's totally sensible to suspect that there could be differences between Tsukuyomi cast from different Mangekyou Sharingan users, depending on how their skill with, and knowledge of Genjutsu compares. But, that doesn't mean that Tsukuyomi can completely *lack* the ability to alter a victim's sense of time, and still be called _"Tsukuyomi"_; we have never been given such an impression. This would be the equivalent of identifying any type of emission of spiraling chakra from an individual's palm, without any added power, or spherical compression, as a Rasengan.

It would make a great deal more sense if these distinctions were made apparent by the *amount* of time that could be compressed, rather than claiming that—contrary to what we've been told about Tsukuyomi—*any* Genjutsu cast from the Mangekyou Sharingan can be classified as Tsukuyomi without the ability to compress time *entirely*.

Now, to cut this short:
Why go through all of this, and not—even *once*—IDENTIFY the Genjutsu that Sasuke's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan as Tsukuyomi?
To quote Yagami_:



> _To farther prove Sasuke has Amaterasu. The first time we see Itachi do Amaterasu(chapter 389 page 15 panel 4 - page 16). The first time we see Sasuke do Amaterasu(chapter 414 page 17 panel 2 - chapter 415 page 2). At the end of chapter 414 the ending line reads "Looking back, he wasn't alone... *Sasuke's emotional Amaterasu*". In chapter 415 page 2 panel 4 Juugo said "Th-These are the *inextingushable black flames* Sasuke was talking about."_


That Sasuke is able to cast Amaterasu after awakening his own Mangekyou Sharingan isn't in doubt. What you have unsuccessfully been trying to prove, against all evidence to the contrary, is that Itachi somehow granted all of his Mangekyou Sharingan techniques to Sasuke, before he could even awaken a Mangekyou Sharingan of his own.



> _As for your obsevation about the blood running down his face into the eye That Itachi set the trap, is very obsevant. But by concentrating on that detail you missed the bigger detail... the forehead poke. In the cave Madara said "*After the fight Itachi did something*". Sasuke remembers something, the express on his face is that of realization. Later we learn Itachi said "*I'm sorry Sasuke, but this is the last time.*". So what is Sasuke remembering? This is the last time of what? Blood running down his face or the forehead poke(something Itachi has been doing to Sasuke his whole childhood)??_


What Itachi *did* was poke Sasuke's forehead, which *resulted* in the blood from his fingers running down to Sasuke's eye. That was the *POINT* of what Itachi *DID*.


----------



## SaiST (Nov 17, 2011)

Faustus said:


> *SaiST*, I have a personal question for you  I'll just provide your own opinions on different topics related to sharingan and you just tell if I'm right and that is exactly your thoughts:
> 1. EMS is not a fusion, it's a result of an exchange


Correct.



> _2. Sasuke never possessed Tsukuyomi_


Correct.



> _3. Totsuka and Yata are separate items which were later added to Itachi's Susanoo, which originally didn't have them. Also, nobody (of MS users) could unlock them just achieving Susanoo._


Incorrect. Didn't you try calling me out for the *contrary* in the Predictions thread last week?

I believe that the Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami are essentially abilities that can only be used through Susanoo, brought about by the specific ocular powers that Itachi has used to manifest it. I'll expand upon this in #4.



> _4. Every MS user can have their unique MS jutsus that are not related to the basic ones (Ama, Tsuki, Susanoo). In fact, there are no basic MS jutsus._


Right now, I am assuming that Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu are not so much _"basic"_, but have been more common, or more frequently reoccurring amongst the few Mangekyou Sharingan users that have popped up throughout the Uchiha clan's history. I'd like to think they hold this kind of significance, as they both represent the apex of the Uchiha clan's two most prominent combat abilities.

But even if this turns out to be the case, it doesn't mean that they had to always come in a pair. For example, I'm of the opinion that Kagutsuchi is the sole ocular power of Sasuke's right Mangekyou Sharingan(spoiler tag down below will explain why), while he casts Amaterasu with the opposing eye. There could have been cases of Mangekyou Sharingan users having Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu in one eye, and different techniques like Kamui or Kotoamatsukami in the other.

... And then, there's Susanoo. I share the belief that the 3rd Databook's description of Susanoo—the ocular powers used to materialize it, and the items it wields—applied to the example we saw from Itachi. In this case, I think Sasuke's more general description of the prerequisites for materializing it are more appropiate: Once a Mangekyou Sharingan user awakens the ocular powers present in both of their eyes... Meaning, it doesn't have to be Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu specifically.

And rather than the armament of each Mangekyou Sharingan user's Susanoo being unique, I suspect that they are dependant upon the ocular powers used to manifest them. So, basically:
Itachi's mastery of Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu, grants his Susanoo the Totsuka no Tsurugi, and Yata no Kagami.
Sasuke's mastery of Amaterasu, and Kagutsuchi, grants his Susanoo this orb of Enton, and currently unnamed Bow/Shield.

*Spoiler*: _I believe that Sasuke's example is a pretty substantial piece of evidence, for the reasons outlined below_ 





SaiST said:


> kaiyokoon said:
> 
> 
> > Kagutsuchi is a derived technique it is not in the same class as the primary abilities of the Sharingan, it technically falls under the category of advanced nature release and has no impact on Susanoo's development.
> ...





Also, the prominence I believe that Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu have held, also support my stance on whether or not Itachi holds exclusivity to the Totsuka no Tsurugi and Yata no Kagami. A Mangekyou Sharingan user could have used both techniques in the past, which means that his or her Susanoo could have also wielded the exact same armament... Of course, this would explain how Orochimaru and Zetsu knew of these items long before Itachi had even been born.

It also seems quite appropiate for two of Japan's Imperial Regalia to be born from such a combination.



> _5. After MS jutsu is unlocked, it becomes dependent on the eye it was originally unlocked in, i.e. it is impossible to cast different MS jutsu with different eyes and every case Kishi showed otherwise was just Kishi being bad artist?_


I don't believe I've ever touched on this, you may have gotten me mixed up with another Sharingan-obsessed forum-trotter you exchanged words with in the past.

But, if I'm understanding you correctly... I wouldn't say it's impossible. Even though he's using Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke's Susanoo is still capable of using the same equipment it had with his own eyes. Since his chakra is the root of his ocular powers, he still retains the ability to use them through Itachi's eyes.

Are we on the same track here?



4ghost said:


> The other reason is that the various translations that I have seen regarding the EMS does not lead me to believe that the "replaced" eye is unimportant in the process.


But have you seen any indication that they *are* important?

_" In finding a new master, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light" -*cnet*_

_"It seems that by acquiring a new host, [highlight]his brother's eyes[/highlight] gained eternal light..." -*tora-chan*_

_"By changing hosts, [highlight]the younger brother's eyes[/highlight] found an inextinguishable light!" -*hisshou*_

Again, perfectly sensible explanation that stays consistent with everything we've heard about eye transplants in this manga thus far, as opposed to... What?



> _Just as an aside, even if the term transplant were used, that is not really definitive proof that the original eye is completely replaced._


_"However, such an [highlight]exchange[/highlight] could only ever take place between members of the same clan." -*cnet*_

_"However, this [highlight]trade[/highlight] can only be carried out among family members. (note: you could read it as "among clan members" as well, but I believe it refers to "family"; ndt)" -*tora-chan*_

_"Obviously, this [highlight]"exchange"[/highlight] could only be done between clansmen. -*hisshou*_



DragonOfChoas said:


> You do realize their is one problem with what you are saying right?
> 
> Itachi was *blind* and yet Sasuke got EMS.
> so if we take your reasons as to why Madara and Izuna didn't swap eyes (because Madara was blind) it doesn't fit with the what the manga has shown.
> ...



*Spoiler*: _That, too, was addressed earlier in this thread_ 





SaiST said:


> senjutsu naruto said:
> 
> 
> > Plus in your own post you said Izuna wouldnt take Madaras eyes because they were considered useless i'm assuming after extensive MS usage. Last I checked so was Itachi's after the brothers fight, so by your own admission transplanting those would make sauce just as bad as he was.......blind
> ...





_" In finding a new master, his brother's eyes [highlight]gained eternal light[/highlight]" -*cnet*_

_"It seems that by acquiring a new host, his brother's eyes [highlight]gained eternal light[/highlight]..." -*tora-chan*_

_"By changing hosts, the younger brother's eyes [highlight]found an inextinguishable light![/highlight]" -*hisshou*_

This exchange between Mangekyou Sharingan wielding siblings permanently restores the eyes' lost _"light"._


----------



## Faustus (Nov 18, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Correct.
> 
> Correct.


So, we are on the opposite here 



> Incorrect.
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...


I see. You're much more flexible on this than I thought and I actually like your explanations. In my case they would be only slightly different. Like:
1. Every sharingan user which unlocks Susanoo gains his items depending on his usage of 2 other MS jutsus.
2. I.E. Itachi was about genjutsu, illusions. His main power (for me) was Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu was secondary comparing to it. So he got Totsuka - the sword that deals with spirits and _*seals the souls in the eternal illusion*_.
Sasuke was about agressive fighting style and Amaterasu. His Tsukuyomi was weak and secondary. But his Ama got higher form and even a separate jutsu for the manipulation - Kagutsuchi (though one can argue Itachi's unnamed ability to manipulate Ama was also Kagutsuchi. But it was still not on the Sasuke's level). So Sasuke's Susanoo got Amaterasu's enhanced weapons (arrows and sword), which correlate with his aggresive fighting style, which is more based on ninjutsu. 
3. Yata case is more difficult. Itachi's Yata has no real feats and Sasuke's bow-shield just seems as strong because his was absolutely unaffected by Danzo's attacks.


> I don't believe I've ever touched on this, you may have gotten me mixed up with another Sharingan-obsessed forum-trotter you exchanged words with in the past.
> 
> But, if I'm understanding you correctly... I wouldn't say it's impossible. Even though he's using Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan, Sasuke's Susanoo is still capable of using the same equipment it had with his own eyes. Since his chakra is the root of his ocular powers, he still retains the ability to use them through Itachi's eyes.
> 
> Are we on the same track here?



You have not, I just tried to conclude this basing on the fact we're in opposition 
But it's not about Susanoo. It is about Amaterasu and Tsukuyomi. Stupid Zetsu's comment made many users believe these jutsu are forever tied to the respective eyes after being unlocked. I.e. if Itachi unlocked Amaterasu in his right eye, he is only able to use it with right eye. I believe it is a quite stupid misconception, because Itachi used Tsukuyomi like 4 times in the entire manga, and his 2 times were with right eye and other 2 were with the left. The only counterargument about this I heard was that Kishi is an idiot and that they know better how it should be (i.e. Tsukuyomi is left and left only)


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Nov 18, 2011)

SaiST said:


> *Spoiler*: _That, too, was addressed earlier in this thread_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This still doesn't fit. You said that Madara didn't swap with Izuna because his eyes were blind and as such couldn't become EMS, but now you say transplanting restores and gives "permanent light" for that eye.  
So again, why could they just swap eyes? Seeing as it was done with Itachi's eyes.
Unless of course they did tried to swap eyes and it didn't work for Izuna.


----------



## SaiST (Nov 18, 2011)

DragonOfChoas said:


> This still doesn't fit. You said that Madara didn't swap with Izuna because his eyes were blind and as such couldn't become EMS, but now you say transplanting restores and gives "permanent light" for that eye.
> So again, why could they just swap eyes? Seeing as it was done with Itachi's eyes.
> Unless of course they did tried to swap eyes and it didn't work for Izuna.


​

*Spoiler*: _I quoted this in my first reply to you_ 





SaiST said:


> [highlight]Madara and Izuna were the first two to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan. And unless it turns out that Rikudou Sennin's stone tablet made mention of it, they should have had no way of knowing how to perfect their Doujutsu.[/highlight]
> 
> Madara was mostly, or *completely* blind... And desperate. Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan were still functional. Assuming that Tobi's story is true, and Izuna did willingly offer up his eyes to his older brother, he would have had no good reason to take his brother's, as they would have considered them useless. Considering the nature of clans, and the way they like to protect the secrets of their bloodlines, it would've made perfect sense to destroy them at that point. Even if they hadn't destroyed them, Izuna could have already fallen in battle by the time Madara realized the amazing additional benefits of exchanging his brother's eyes with his own.
> 
> But again, this is assuming that Tobi was telling the truth. We know that he was willing to twist the facts a bit in order to gain even a little bit of Sasuke's trust. It's also possible that Madara, being as desperate as he was, simply betrayed his brother.





Is it clicking yet? Madara's eyes were sealed, and the exchange permanently restores the eyes' lost light, but *they* didn't know that.

[EDIT] - Just noticed that I missed this:



Faustus said:


> That "basic" explanation doesn't explain secondary proof - why 2 brothers couldn't just switch their eyes and both would have EMS. Or maybe this proof is the most important   Why all these "killing brothers" through Uchiha history?


Mostly for the reasons outlined in . The Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan has strict requirements, and because of that, it's understandable why they have been met so rarely.

Regardless of whether it is awakened naturally, or if an Uchiha murders their closest friend to expedite this process, the Mangekyou Sharingan is something that they would likely want to *keep*, for obvious reasons:



Now, let's just wrap it all up, and take all of these points into consideration.
Due to the strict requirements of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan...
The taboo that surrounds the Mangekyou Sharingan in general...
And the desperation that would come from the risk of Mangekyou Sharingan users losing their _"light"_...
It's sensible to conclude that Mangekyou Sharingan users in the past have killed their clanmates to either steal the eyes of immediate family that had not awakened Mangekyou Sharingan of their own, or the Mangekyou Sharingan of those *not* closely related to them... Neither of which would meet the necessary conditions to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.


----------



## Faustus (Nov 18, 2011)

SaiST said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I actually didn't read your earlier posts in this thread and was discussing with others, but now, when I read your latest ones (because you were answering me at least at one part of your post)... You know... Your explanations began to shake my beliefs in "fusion theory". FOR THE FIRST TIME. I still believe in it, but for the first time ever I have good counterarguments to think about. I don't even want to argue with them, I'll just... accept them and keep them in mind. Because they are sufficiently valid in my eyes to make the rate between fusion/exchange close to 50%/50% from approximately 85%/15%


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2011)

IF you are a single child who happened to awaken your MS.... Then all you have to do is to replace your moms birth control pills with some vitamin c's...

mom : "we don't know how to tell you this but... you'll have a brother/sister soon..."

you : "just as planned".


----------



## SaiST (Nov 18, 2011)

Faustus said:


> I actually didn't read your earlier posts in this thread and was discussing with others, but now, when I read your latest ones (because you were answering me at least at one part of your post)... You know... Your explanations began to shake my beliefs in "fusion theory". FOR THE FIRST TIME. I still believe in it, but for the first time ever I have good counterarguments to think about. I don't even want to argue with them, I'll just... accept them and keep them in mind. Because they are sufficiently valid in my eyes to make the rate between fusion/exchange close to 50%/50% from approximately 85%/15%


Heh. Well, I'll take what I can get.


----------



## Faustus (Nov 18, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Heh. Well, I'll take what I can get.



But you still didn't answer my last question in the previous post  
I will wait


----------



## SaiST (Nov 18, 2011)

About the techniques in different eyes?

Itachi used both eyes for Tsukuyomi here, but I have no recollection of him using his right eye alone to cast it.


----------



## Faustus (Nov 18, 2011)

SaiST said:


> About the techniques in different eyes?
> 
> Itachi used both eyes for Tsukuyomi here, but I have no recollection of him using his right eye alone to cast it.



^The emphasis was on the right eye nevertheless. 

Here is the second time: here


----------



## Ryuzaki (Nov 18, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> IF you are a single child who happened to awaken your MS.... Then all you have to do is to replace your moms birth control pills with some vitamin c's...
> 
> mom : "we don't know how to tell you this but... you'll have a brother/sister soon..."
> 
> you : "just as planned".



That's hilarious, so how many siblings DO you have? And how many WERE you supposed to have?


----------



## SaiST (Nov 19, 2011)

Faustus said:


> ^The emphasis was on the right eye nevertheless.
> 
> Here is the second time: animals are ninja tools


Ah... Dunno. 

Seriously, I think you'd have a better case if we saw Itachi using his right eye alone to cast it. Emphasis may have been placed on his right eye as he was opening it in both instances, but in the later example that I provided(when we're finally able to see what Itachi's eyes looks like as he's casting Tsukuyomi), we can clearly see him using them both.

I never really gave it much thought. When we were finally told that Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan techniques were tied to different eyes, I just chalked it up to Kishimoto not having made a firm decision about it, back when we saw him use both eyes.

That said, I don't think what you're saying is impossible. Perhaps the manner in which Mangekyou Sharingan techniques are tied to each eye are a matter of preference, like... Orthodox, and southpaw boxers.

_* SaiST shrugs._


----------



## DragonOfChoas (Nov 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> ​
> 
> Is it clicking yet? Madara's eyes were sealed, and the exchange permanently restores the eyes' lost light, but *they* didn't know that.



Okay, my bad I kinda skimmed your post... It does seem that you are right, even more so if Madara betrayed his brother.


----------



## SaiST (Nov 20, 2011)

​


----------



## T-Bag (Nov 20, 2011)

johny drama solos


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 22, 2011)

Faustus said:


> Can't you read? Madara didn't say that, it was a mistranslation  And it was explained like over 600 billions times on this and other forums



You tell me this...



Faustus said:


> So, we are on the opposite here
> I see. You're much more flexible on this than I thought and I actually like your explanations. In my case they would be only slightly different. Like:
> 1. Every sharingan user which unlocks Susanoo gains his items depending on his usage of 2 other MS jutsus.
> *2. I.E. Itachi was about genjutsu, illusions. His main power (for me) was Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu was secondary comparing to it. So he got Totsuka - the sword that deals with spirits and seals the souls in the eternal illusion.
> ...



... as you state why it's TRUE here. 



> SaiST
> Usually, using someone's translation is perfectly fine, so long as the translator gives their consent, and is at least credited. Sometimes, translations are made available for all to read, but can only be used for scanslation purposes by a specific group; those terms are specified by the translator.
> 
> *Did* you check the credits pages of these different scanslations?



 I thought they translated it themselves, so I just checked for different names.



> Recount that. It's two each.



"In his last moments... for your own sake, he channelled the *power of his own eyes* into you." -cnet - Plural

"In his last moments, he implanted his own *eye power* into you for your sake." -tora-chan - Singular

"Somehow, at the last second, he transferred *all his eye techniques* into you." -hisshou - Plural

No problem. I actually remember that one well since I remember translating the spoiler for the text. In it, they say that Itachi transferred his "瞳力" to Sasuke. That literally means "power of eye(s)" or it can be translated as "eye power"
 I prove why that could be singular or plural here.

*Spoiler*: __ 



So you just verifed that my definition of Douryoku is correct, without my English mistake of adding S to the end of Douryoku. The Singular is

*Spoiler*: __ 



Douryoku means power of the eye OR eye power
Douryoku means power of the eye
Douryoku means eye power


 
The Plural is 

*Spoiler*: __ 



Douryoku means power of the eyes OR eye powers
Douryoku means power of the eyes
Douryoku means eye powers





 
 This one is both, either the singular or the plural. So it's 2 & a half and 1 & a half. Plural is still used more times.



> And if you really want some closure on this matter, just bring it up in . Be sure to share the answer with us.



 Ok



> > _"[highlight]Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu[/highlight] is just an [highlight]upgraded Amaterasu[/highlight]."_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 22, 2011)

> To alter the victim's perception of time, which is what allows it's user to compress hours, or even *days* worth of mental torture in an instant. That is what defines Tsukuyomi. This point is driven home in .



 That is exactly what I said. I even posted the pages where it is explained in the Manga. The conversation between Kakashi, Elder Chiyo, & Itachi 



> But it isn't limited to casting these two, ultimate Genjutsu.



 I never said that. I just said that Tsukiyomi and Koto Amatsukami are exclusive to MS.



> Even if the Mangekyou Sharingan is active, lesser Genjutsu can still be employed(with the possibility of being enhanced, due to being cast from the superior Doujutsu), just as we saw when Itachi detailed Madara's history to Sasuke.
> 
> But, you probably thought *that* was Tsukuyomi too, didn't you?


It was, you just gave the definition of what he did a paragraph ago.


> To alter the victim's perception of time, which is what allows it's user to compress hours, or even *days* worth of mental torture in an instant. That is what defines Tsukuyomi.



 He just didn't torture Sasuke, after the fight we find out Itachi didn't want to win so he went easy on Sasuke. He wanted to show Sasuke that what he believed was not "reality" but "illusions". Again I gave the Manga pages to prove that. 



> 1. Genjutsu has been used to *instantly* restrict movements, lull victims to slumber, or leave them unconscious with potent mental shocks. Normally, these kinds of Genjutsuprovided the recipients are capable enoughcan be resisted, or even dispelled with Genjutsu Kai, and their recipients can function normally soon afterwards.
> 
> 2. Not the case with Tsukuyomi, and it does more than just bind, or knock folks out.
> 
> 3. Genjutsu usually require *real time* hours*days* worth of mental prodding to shatter an individual's mental fortitude. Tsukuyomi takes all that time, and compresses it to a *real time*, minuscule moment; it is capable of instantly inflicting lasting mental damage that is substantial enough for it's victims to eventually end up *comatose*. That's why it's been called the strongest Genjutsu, and why it can only be dispelled by a skilled, true Sharingan successor.



 Again I gave the Manga pages explaining just that. Elder Chiyo talks about 1, Kakashi explains part 2 & 3, & Itachi praises him for figuring that out. *You do know that you just put 4 paragraghs that contained 2 definitions & 1 example that only re-enforces the Manga pages that I gaves as proof, right??*  



> See the example of *Binding* Genjutsu above.
> Review the 3rd Databook's entry for , a particularly powerful type of Binding Genjutsu that both Itachi and Sasuke have cast from their Sharingan in the past.
> Notice the similarities shared between their effects, and aspects of their aesthetics.



I'll check it out.



> So, where is Tsukuyomi's defining trait in all of this? How are you going about trying to reason that Sasuke succeeded in altering Danzou's sense of time, when it's said outrightand even *reiterated* a few chapters laterthat he could not?



 Again in the chapter with the conversation with Kakashi, Elder Chiyo, & Itachi for the defining trait. In the chapter pages I provided showing the differences of Itachi and Sasuke, although the example of Bee can be discarded if it is a different genjutsu. The only thing the chapter reiterated was Sasuke is not as good in genjutsu as Itachi, & Sasuke doesn't do Tsukiyomi as good as Itachi.



> Look, I think it's totally sensible to suspect that there could be differences between Tsukuyomi cast from different Mangekyou Sharingan users, depending on how their skill with, and knowledge of Genjutsu compares. But, that doesn't mean that Tsukuyomi can completely *lack* the ability to alter a victim's sense of time, and still be called _"Tsukuyomi"_; we have never been given such an impression. This would be the equivalent of identifying any type of emission of spiraling chakra from an individual's palm, without any added power, or spherical compression, as a Rasengan.



 So you agree & disagree with me in the same breath. Now your even using the same jutsu I gave as an example before. How many people have Rasengan? Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Konohamaru. All five of them have the same jutsu but not all of them have the same skill. All five of them have 2 out of 3 of those traits(the spiraling chakra from th palm, & spherical compression) not all of them have the same power(Konohamaru has to attack with a clone). Naruto has to use a clone to even do Rasengan, does that make his Rasengan any weaker than Minato's, Kakashi's, or Jiraiya's even though he doen't have the kill in handling his chakra? It's the same with Tsukiyomi, & Itachi and Sasuke's use of it. 



> It would make a great deal more sense if these distinctions were made apparent by the *amount* of time that could be compressed, rather than claiming thatcontrary to what we've been told about Tsukuyomi*any* Genjutsu cast from the Mangekyou Sharingan can be classified as Tsukuyomi without the ability to compress time *entirely*.



 In the chapters pages I provided except the exclution of Sasuke's genjutsu on Bee shows the amount of time that can be compressed. The point I made and the chapter pages I show proves Sasuke *DOES NOT* have the skill to pull off that trait of Tsukiyomi, but he has the defining trait of the Tsukiyomi affects his target in an instant.



> Now, to cut this short:
> Why go through all of this, and noteven *once*IDENTIFY the Genjutsu that Sasuke's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan as Tsukuyomi?
> To quote Yagami_:



 I hate using this arguement. 
Why did it take Kishi so long to reveal Minato as Naruto's dad?
Why did it take Kishi so long to reveal Naruto's mom?
Why did it take Kishi so long to reveal Shishui's MS design?
Why did it take Kishi so long to reveal Shihui' Genjutsu name?
Why did it take Kishi so long to reveal what Itachi gave Naruto?
Why has Kishi not given the names of Tobi(Madara)'s S/T warping & Intangibilty yet?



> That Sasuke is able to cast Amaterasu after awakening his own Mangekyou Sharingan isn't in doubt. What you have unsuccessfully been trying to prove, against all evidence to the contrary, is that Itachi somehow granted all of his Mangekyou Sharingan techniques to Sasuke, before he could even awaken a Mangekyou Sharingan of his own.



 No, I'm explaining & showing Manga Pages as proof, why the translation that Itachi gave Sasuke all his MS jutsu is correct. Even some of your examples definition of phrases or terms are supporting my explanations. Itachi gave Sasuke his MS jutsu, & Sasuke used them after awakening his MS.



> What Itachi *did* was poke Sasuke's forehead, which *resulted* in the blood from his fingers running down to Sasuke's eye. That was the *POINT* of what Itachi *DID*.



 There you go with the blood again.  
What if there was no pictures? 
What if Itachi coughed blood in his left hand & used his right hand to poke Sasukes forehead? 
What if it was water, mud, saliva, urine or any other liquid that ran down to Sasuke's eye?
 In the context of that one chapter the blood makes sense because Itachi was dying & coughing up blood. In the context of the Manga as a whole the forehead poke which happens more than once is more important than the finer details of one specific event.

Question: I've been following you debate with Faustus an he/she has used Tsukiyomi.


> Faustus
> 2. I.E. Itachi was about genjutsu, illusions. His main power (for me) was Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu was secondary comparing to it. So he got Totsuka - the sword that deals with spirits and _*seals the souls in the eternal illusion*_.
> Sasuke was about agressive fighting style and Amaterasu. His Tsukuyomi was weak and secondary. But his Ama got higher form and even a separate jutsu for the manipulation - Kagutsuchi (though one can argue Itachi's unnamed ability to manipulate Ama was also Kagutsuchi. But it was still not on the Sasuke's level).


 Why have you not disputed this with him/her?


----------



## Faustus (Nov 22, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> You tell me this...
> 
> 
> 
> ... as you state why it's TRUE here.


 I fail to see a connection there, bro


----------



## Timeshift (Nov 22, 2011)

(re)acquires the Rinnegan.

"I believed Sasuke would transplant my eyes in order to gain "true" power... the eternal mangekyo."

Itachi says EMS is achieved through a transplant, not a merge or fusion.


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Nov 22, 2011)

Faustus said:


> I fail to see a connection there, bro



 The connection is that the only reason Sasuke has those MS jutsu(Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi) is because Itachi gave them to him.


----------



## Faustus (Nov 22, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> The connection is that the only reason Sasuke has those MS jutsu(Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi) is because Itachi gave them to him.



 That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard


----------



## SaiST (Nov 23, 2011)

Faustus, be nice... 

Alright, I'll give your post a more thorough reply a bit later, but I just want to lay this out for you to think about:

Even if we were to all assume that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi, allowing him to use the same three Mangekyou Sharingan techniques as his brother, how exactly does that *prove* that Itachi gave all three of those techniques to Sasuke, and that they are not the result of Sasuke's *own* Mangekyou Sharingan?

What makes that conclusion more *likely* than Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu being the sole douryoku Itachi sealed into Sasuke, despite all the contextual evidence that opposes it?


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## Shikamaru Nara (Nov 23, 2011)

LoL@ the shitstorm turning out of this


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Dec 1, 2011)

Faustus said:


> That's the dumbest thing I have ever heard



 Your right that is a dumb reply, I'll put my answer with my reply to SaiST.



> SaiST
> Faustus, be nice...



 I don't think he was that mean. 



> Alright, I'll give your post a more thorough reply a bit later, but I just want to lay this out for you to think about:
> 
> Even if we were to all assume that Sasuke possesses Tsukuyomi, allowing him to use the same three Mangekyou Sharingan techniques as his brother, how exactly does that *prove* that Itachi gave all three of those techniques to Sasuke, and that they are not the result of Sasuke's *own* Mangekyou Sharingan?
> 
> What makes that conclusion more *likely* than Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu being the sole douryoku Itachi sealed into Sasuke, despite all the contextual evidence that opposes it?



 I have never said all three, I've never said Itachi gave Sasuke Susano'o just Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi. 

From what we learned over the course of the Manga about the growth of the Sharingan. When someone unlocks the MS they get two individual jutsu(one in the left eye the other in the right), when they can do those they unlock the third Susano'o. All the people we know that have MS in order are Madara, Izuna, Shisui, Itachi, & Sasuke. Their MS jutsu are

Itachi: Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu are his eye MS techs so he unlocked Susano'o 

Shisui: Both of his individual MS techs are Koto Amatsukami its unknown if he could do Susano'o

Tobi(Madara) & Edo Madara: S/T warping & Intangibilty are his individual MS jutsu so he unlocked Susano'o 
The S/T warping & Itangibility have yet to be named.

Izuna: His individual MS are unknown & its unknown if he had Susano'o

 From those 4 thats 7 different MS techs(6 if Izuna has the same eye tech in both eyes like Shisui. I'm inclined to think Izuna has two MS techs, and that Shisui is the only exception to that rule), each MS user has different techs. To further that when Tobi(Madara) found out Danzo had one of Shisui's eyes he tried to get the eye, if he could do that tech already why would he need the eye? 

   Now we have Sasuke who has shown Amterasu, Tsukiyomi, & Susano'o, the same MS tech set like Itachi. That doesn't fit what we have been shown. 

*Spoiler*: __ 



I've said from the beginning that Sasuke has been using Itachi's MS techs(Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi), & his own Susano'o, and that when he gets EMS he display his own MS techs


 



Shikamaru Nara said:


> LoL@ the shitstorm turning out of this



 Its not a shitstorm, but a heated debate from both sides.


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## Chappz316 (Dec 1, 2011)

So when Itachi's Tensha Fuin was tripped by tobi it was itachi casting amaterasu on tobi, thus the MS at that point looking like Itachi's. 

And by your logic Sasuke is using Itachi's MS tech's and hasn't displayed his own, how come it didn't look like itachi's MS each time amaterasu was used?

And also we can now assume Izuna unlocked Susanoo because Madara's EMS Susanoo was two bodied. Symbolising the fusion of their individual Susanoo's. 

And Sasuke's EMS reveal in chapter 553 shows a susanoo has two arms on the right side of it's body


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Dec 1, 2011)

Are you using my post from this thread or the other? I have found if I use info that is not directly related to the topic my post get long and confusing, but I'll answer if your referring to both.



> Chappz316
> So when Itachi's Tensha Fuin was tripped by tobi it was itachi casting amaterasu on tobi, thus the MS at that point looking like Itachi's.



   Yes, not to long ago he did the same thing with the crow. Itachi put something(Amaterasu, Shisui's eye) into a medium(Sasuke, the crow) to activate at the sight of the target(Madara's eye, Itachi's eye). It is the same concept. 
   Another example of this is the seals that hold the Bijuu in the host. Both Elder Chiyo & Bee prove this. Chiyo said that each village uses different seals to put the Bijuu in a host, Bee said that the seal used on Naruto was stronger than the seal used on him.
   Another interesting thing to note is that Shisui's eye was set to activate at the sight of *Itachi's eye*. Why not set it to activate at the sight of *Sasuke's eye* ? Itachi said he set it up if Sasuke used his eyes things he planned went wrong.
   On the Amaterasu trap he set it for *Madara's eye*(I explained that in the other thread. Itachi bieng the one to figure out Madara's alive, Itachi saying Madara's eyes are fine, Itachi knowing Tobi(Madara) would show Sasuke his eye). Which brings up another question.

 If Madara swapped, switched, replaced his own eyes with Izuna, and Itachi KNEW this. Why would he set the trap to activate at the sight of *Madara's eye* but not Izuna's eye?

 Also another interesting thing to note is that Itachi destroyed the crow to destroy the eye, it was never removed. If the sealed eye in the crow was not removed, Why would Amaterasu sealed in Sasuke's eye disappear just to reappear in Sasuke's eye? How is it least logical to believe that Amaterasu never disappeared, and Sasuke just learned to use it later?       



> And by your logic Sasuke is using Itachi's MS tech's and hasn't displayed his own, how come it didn't look like itachi's MS each time amaterasu was used?



  I don't know what you mean. How can you tell the difference between one black flame & another black flame.  Just kidding, Faustus explains it best. 


> Faustus
> 2. I.E. Itachi was about genjutsu, illusions. His main power (for me) was Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu was secondary comparing to it. So he got Totsuka - the sword that deals with spirits and seals the souls in the eternal illusion.
> Sasuke was about agressive fighting style and Amaterasu. His Tsukuyomi was weak and secondary. But his Ama got higher form and even a separate jutsu for the manipulation - Kagutsuchi (though one can argue Itachi's unnamed ability to manipulate Ama was also Kagutsuchi. But it was still not on the Sasuke's level).


 I agree with that just not his other part. 



> And also we can now assume Izuna unlocked Susanoo because Madara's EMS Susanoo was two bodied. Symbolising the fusion of their individual Susanoo's.



 I agree with this, but I'm not gonna use definites like true, does, proven until it is stated in the Manga or the Databook(even though I don't read the Databook).  



> And Sasuke's EMS reveal in chapter 553 shows a susanoo has two arms on the right side of it's body



 I don't disagree with that.


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> This one is both, either the singular or the plural.



*Spoiler*: _The most important part_ 





			
				Sho said:
			
		

> There's absolutely nothing in the text that says he transferred his "eye techniques", and especially not "all his eye techniques".






*Spoiler*: _Also_ 





takL said:


> "At the(/his) end… (itachi) poured his own eye(/ocular) power into you for your good."





suarhnir said:


> *literal:* in the end... for your sake, [his] eye power was imbued within you.
> *smoother:* in the end... [he] infused his power into you for your sake.
> *meaning:* taking just that small panel, it talks of how itachi passed some power on to sasuke for his benefit. it's not specific that it was 'all techniques' of itachi's mangekyou, simply that he passed his 'eye power/ability' onto sasuke.





But regardless of how translators chose to convey that term at the time, the fact remains that there was no way to ascertain the extent of what Itachi had given to Sasuke from that panel alone.



> _Except that none of that would be possible if Itachi didn't give Sasuke the Amaterasu. You said Tensha Fuuin was a seal, so he sealed Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye. So we both agree on this point?? So now I just have to prove that Itachi also sealed Tsukiyomi in Sasuke's eye._


Yes, we agree that Itachi sealed Amaterasu within Sasuke's eye. 

The problem is that you're under the impression that it was a permanent thing, when the seal was released upon Sasuke catching sight of Tobi's eye; that was it's purpose. That was *it* for Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu. Sasuke isn't casting Amaterasu with his own Mangekyou Sharingan as a result of it.



> _That is exactly what I said._


Yet you don't seem to understand what it means. You're making the mistake of assuming that any Genjutsu that starts working it's magic right away is functioning the same way as Tsukuyomi, when the truth of the matter is that most Genjutsu we've seen throughout this manga have done just that—hence, why I went through the trouble of providing those examples of different types of Genjutsu for you... Which seemed to be fruitless. :/

Both Itachi and Sasuke have used Magen: Kasegui no Jutsu to "instantly" restrict Orochimaru's movements, but Kasegui does not function anything like Tsukuyomi. They didn't compress hours worth of mental prodding just to leave his movements temporarily bound with giant, illusionary spikes.



> _I never said that. I just said that Tsukiyomi and Koto Amatsukami are exclusive to MS._


So if you acknowledge this, while keeping what I said above in mind, how exactly would you go about differentiating Tsukuyomi from any of these lesser Genjutsu, without it's name, and/or it's ability to compress hours 'n days worth of time being mentioned?



> _It was, you just gave the definition of what he did a paragraph ago._


It wasn't, because there's no indication that any of the time spent conveying that imagery transpired in a single moment.

Besides the fact that it was cast from a Mangekyou Sharingan, there's no difference between what Itachi used there, and the Genjutsu Sasuke used on Kabuto to show how he overcame Orochimaru's Fushi Tensei.



> _So you agree & disagree with me in the same breath. Now your even using the same jutsu I gave as an example before._


I agree that it would make sense for there to be differences between the power of Tsukuyomi cast from different users, what we disagree on is how those differences can be made apparent. And while I may have used the same technique as an example, the example itself significantly differs from your own.

You are using the Rasengan users' varying skill levels as a way to demonstrate how the same could apply to the manner in which Itachi and Sasuke handle Tsukuyomi. Basically, you are saying that Sasuke cannot make a Rasengan as big, and powerful as Itachi's...

While *I'm* saying that what Sasuke's making isn't a Rasengan at all, he's just flinging about a bunch of spinning chakra from the palm of his hand, nothing's being spherically compressed—a "Rasen" without the "gan".



> _How many people have Rasengan? Naruto, Minato, Jiraiya, Kakashi, Konohamaru. All five of them have the same jutsu but not all of them have the same skill. All five of them have 2 out of 3 of those traits(the spiraling chakra from th palm, & spherical compression) not all of them have the same power(Konohamaru has to attack with a clone)._


Review the second step of Naruto's training for the Rasengan.

All five of 'em employ ALL three steps; Konohamaru is no exception. They are all *necessary* to complete the Rasengan.

The differences between their results lie in HOW much power they are able to conjure up for the technique, and how they are able to handle it during, and after the process of it's completion.



> _The point I made and the chapter pages I show proves Sasuke *DOES NOT* have the skill to pull off that trait of Tsukiyomi_


Which means he has never used Tsukuyomi.



> _but he has the defining trait of the Tsukiyomi affects his target in an instant._


And hopefully you've come to realize your mistake in assuming that any Genjutsu that immediately starts affecting it's victims functions the same way as Tsukuyomi.



> _I hate using this arguement. _


Then don't, they're terrible examples in this case.

Those are details related to important plot revelations. This is a simple matter of confirming Sasuke's possession of a technique that has already been well established, long after he has not only taken his Mangekyou Sharingan to it's limits, but has gone and transcended those limits by exchanging them with his brother's Mangekyou Sharingan.

If he had Tsukuyomi, the Genjutsu he's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan would've been identified as such by now. There's no point in avoiding it.



> _Even some of your examples definition of phrases or terms are supporting my explanations._


Only in your mind, depressing as that may be.



> _In the context of the Manga as a whole the forehead poke which happens more than once is more important than the finer details of one specific event._


This specific event, this particular moment in which Itachi's fingers make contact with Sasuke's head, just so happens to be the very moment—the *ONLY* moment—that this transference of douryoku takes place.

So it makes perfect sense to observe the finer details of this specific event, and the results of it, to ascertain not only *how* this douryoku was given, but come to a better understanding of the *extent* of it.







And you think that's all just some kind of an insubstantial coincidence?



> _Question: I've been following you debate with Faustus an he/she has used Tsukiyomi.
> 
> Why have you not disputed this with him/her?  _


Why should I? He offered his own interpretation of the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities in response to my own.

I don't see eye to eye on all of it, but the reasons behind that are already being discussed.



> _I have never said all three, I've never said Itachi gave Sasuke Susano'o just Amaterasu & Tsukiyomi._


Which basically ends up with the same result.



> _Itachi: Tsukiyomi & Amaterasu are his eye MS techs so he unlocked Susano'o
> 
> Shisui: Both of his individual MS techs are Koto Amatsukami its unknown if he could do Susano'o
> 
> ...



Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan techniques have yet to be revealed. We don't know what abilities he's using to materialize his Susanoo.
Tobi's Jikuukan Ninjutsu, which encompasses his teleporting, and intangibility, originate from his right eye alone. And there's nothing to suggest that Madara also possesses this ocular power thus far.
Yagura, the Yondaime Mizukage and Sanbi Jinchuuriki, was subjugated by Tobi with a Genjutsu that was said to be very similar to Kotoamatsukami.
Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu have implied history within the Uchiha clan. Neither of them were unique to Itachi in the sense that he was the only Uchiha capable of wielding either of them before Sasuke.


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## SaVaGe609 (Dec 19, 2011)

Everytime it comes up in the manga they describe it as a swap. Naturally I'll consider it as such until proven otherwise.

Sidenote: You mods always have the most intense Thread titles.


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## Chibason (Dec 19, 2011)

Hey, I missed this thread until now. I'm still in the fusion camp. I've debated it with SaiST in depth before so don't care to again atm. 

I will only say this- It doesn't make sense to me that Sasuke would simply discard his powerful sharingan and simply implant Itachi's nearly blind eyes to gain more power. 

I believe that stacking the power, fusing both sets of eyes, is the key to unlocking the EMS. I too believe that the Mangekyou demon shown behind EMS Madara with all 4 eyes is the proof.


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

[EDIT] - Missed this post:



Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> Yes, not to long ago he did the same thing with the crow. Itachi put something(Amaterasu, Shisui's eye) into a medium(Sasuke, the crow) to activate at the sight of the target(Madara's eye, Itachi's eye). It is the same concept.


... Not quite.



> _Also another interesting thing to note is that Itachi destroyed the crow to destroy the eye, it was never removed. If the sealed eye in the crow was not removed, Why would Amaterasu sealed in Sasuke's eye disappear just to reappear in Sasuke's eye? How is it least logical to believe that Amaterasu never disappeared, and Sasuke just learned to use it later?_


Because the former example is the result of one of Shisui's actual Mangekyou Sharingan being physically transplanted into one of Itachi's crows.

While the latter example is the result of a portion of Itachi's intangible ocular power being sealed within Sasuke's eye.



> _Another interesting thing to note is that Shisui's eye was set to activate at the sight of *Itachi's eye*. Why not set it to activate at the sight of *Sasuke's eye* ? Itachi said he set it up if Sasuke used his eyes things he planned went wrong.
> On the Amaterasu trap he set it for *Madara's eye*(I explained that in the other thread. Itachi bieng the one to figure out Madara's alive, Itachi saying Madara's eyes are fine, Itachi knowing Tobi(Madara) would show Sasuke his eye). Which brings up another question.
> 
> If Madara swapped, switched, replaced his own eyes with Izuna, and Itachi KNEW this. Why would he set the trap to activate at the sight of *Madara's eye* but not Izuna's eye?_


The sealing technique was set to activate at the sight of the Sharingan belonging to *Tobi*, who Itachi *believed* to be Madara. Regardless of who Tobi actually is, or to whom that Sharingan he's got stuck in his right eye socket right now originated with, *that* is the eye that Itachi specified to be the trigger for releasing that sealed ocular power.

Itachi did not hold such intimate details of Madara or Izuna from nearly a century ago—he didn't even know much about Tobi(and Tobi was quite thankful for that).



> _I don't know what you mean. How can you tell the difference between one black flame & another black flame.  Just kidding, Faustus explains it best._


I don't think you really understood what he's trying to get across.

If Sasuke's ability to willingly cast Amaterasu from his own Mangekyou Sharingan was the result of Itachi's Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, as you believe, why does his Sharingan's Tomoe Seal no longer take on the appearance of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan while casting it?... Y'know, since you seem to be under the impression that Amaterasu is Itachi's exclusive, unique ocular power, and Sasuke shouldn't be able to cast it otherwise.



SaVaGe609 said:


> Sidenote: You mods always have the most intense Thread titles.


I tend to be a bit on the dramatic side.



Chibason said:


> Hey, I missed this thread until now. I'm still in the fusion camp. I've debated it with SaiST in depth before so don't care to again atm.




_"That's right, you mothas! *RUN!!*"_​
...


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## Tengu (Dec 19, 2011)

Kishi didn't made it very clear, i mean the EMS looks like a fusion of both eyes, but in the manga it is said that you just need to take your brothers eyes.
Then why didn't Madara and Izuna just swap eyes, thus both gaining the EMS?


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Then why didn't Madara and Izuna just swap eyes, thus both gaining the EMS?


Please, review the thread. Question's already been asked and addressed.


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## Chibason (Dec 19, 2011)

@SaiST- Lol I never run from a debate. 

It's just that we've debated every aspect of the matter already. I respect your position, and have already agreed to concede if it's never specifically  explained....so now we wait.

Oh and btw, I'm still waiting to hear the particulars of our bet....

Unless you're worried and want to call it off


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

_* SaiST shrugs._

Rock a Sakura av/sig set for a few months or somethin'. :I


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## Chibason (Dec 19, 2011)

SaiST said:


> _* SaiST shrugs._
> 
> Rock a Sakura av/sig set for a few months or somethin'. :I



Ok Loser wears Sackura set for 2 mnths.

That's a little harsh but it works for me...


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## eyeknockout (Dec 19, 2011)

it will become apparent when itachi returns with EMS because he found sasuke's eyes and exchanged them.


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## Tengu (Dec 19, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Please, review the thread. Question's already been asked and addressed.



Well the answer you gave is just one big assumption, it would have made much better sense if the eyes merged somehow, i mean why does the EMS look like a combination of both MS design?


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Well the answer you gave is just one big assumption


We're all making assumptions here, smart guy.

The point is to understand which assumption is the most logically sound based on all of the facts surrounding the subject.



> _i mean why does the EMS look like a combination of both MS design?_


That's been answered too.


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## Jizznificent (Dec 19, 2011)

an exchange should be the answer as that is what it was described as.


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## Nikushimi (Dec 19, 2011)

It's obviously an exchange. That's what "transplant" means.

How the fuck are you gonna "fuse" eyeballs? Where did this "fusion" nonsense even come from, anyway? There's absolutely no mention of it in the manga.


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## SaiST (Dec 19, 2011)

_* SaiST tears up a bit._ 

Uuu... Common sense...


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## JPongo (Dec 19, 2011)

Sounds more like a result of an asspull to further the Uchihahas' story.


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## Zerst?ren (Dec 19, 2011)

None. I think it's the fusion of two Uchiha DNA's who have the MS, and by combining each other return the light to one set of eyes.


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## aifa (Dec 19, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> It's obviously an exchange. That's what "transplant" means.
> 
> How the fuck are you gonna "fuse" eyeballs? Where did this "fusion" nonsense even come from, anyway? There's absolutely no mention of it in the manga.



It's a manga dude. Anything is possible here.


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## First Tsurugi (Dec 19, 2011)

I'm guessing it's a transplant of eyes, but I've always been puzzled that it's never been made more clear.


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## Jeαnne (Dec 19, 2011)

you need to have a...container


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## Klue (Dec 20, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> The first translation *has a Singular AND a Plural* while the second doesn't. How can two things that mean the samething not have BOTH a PLURAL to a SINGULAR? I have seen poster use DOUYOKOS the PLURAL. *So the singulars would be Douryoko means Power of the eye or Eye power, So the plurals would be Douryokos means Power of the eyes or Eye powers.*



Plurals in Japanese doesn't follow the same procedures as the English language.

Most words have no plual form, the same word is used for both singular and plural - with rare exceptions. Some nouns have a plural form, such as: Kami (God) becomes Kamigami (Gods). 

But as you can see, it's not like English. Douryoko (Eye Power / Technique) doesn't become Douryoko(*s*) (Eye Powers / Techniques) - or whatever.

Basically, HisshouBuraiKen decided to translate that passage using a plural. But according to the 3rd Databook, he was wrong. Itachi gave Sasuke a single shot of Amaterasu, triggered at the sight of Tobi's Sharingan - that's why Itachi's MS pattern appeared in Sasuke's eye.


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## Tengu (Dec 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> We're all making assumptions here, smart guy.
> 
> The point is to understand which assumption is the most logically sound based on all of the facts surrounding the subject.
> 
> ...



Well i don't like your explanation, Madara took Izuna's eyes, and Izuna decides to destroy Madara's eyes instead? it doesn't really make sense to me.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

Nikushimi said:


> It's obviously an exchange. That's what "transplant" means.
> 
> *How the fuck are you gonna "fuse" eyeballs? *Where did this "fusion" nonsense even come from, anyway? There's absolutely no mention of it in the manga.


No it's not obvious.It's possible but not obvious.

How the fuck do you fire black flames out of your eyes?
It's fiction.They create Meteors ffs.

I gotta admit that I havent read everything here.So don't yell at me when I repeat what someone already said.

I personally think it's a fusion.The eyes maybe get fused by some kind of sealing ritual.
We can see that Sasukes and Madaras EMS inherit the tomoe seals of both brothers.Why would Sasukes or Madaras tomoe seal appear if he's using Itachis/Izunas eyes?

Does the body of an Uchiha that awakanes or uses the MangeykouSharingan influence the look of the tomoe seal? I really wonder about that.
Would Obitos MS look different than Kakashis using Obitos eye?

That would be really interesting to know.And theres just one way to find out.Tobi has to be Obito


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## SaiST (Dec 20, 2011)

Tengu said:


> Well i don't like your explanation, Madara took Izuna's eyes, and Izuna decides to destroy Madara's eyes instead? it doesn't really make sense to me.


It makes perfect sense because Madara's eyes were sealed, and Izuna's were not. Izuna had no reason to take Madara's eyes, as Izuna couldn't have known that Madara would gain the kind of benefits he did from taking Izuna's eyes.

And this is all assuming that Izuna really did willingly offer up his eyes to Madara.

All of this has already been explained.



Shikamaru Nara said:


> I personally think it's a fusion.The eyes maybe get fused by some kind of sealing ritual.


Which would be a perfectly acceptable theory if there were any indication of such a sealing ritual for two pairs of eyes existing.



> _We can see that Sasukes and Madaras EMS inherit the tomoe seals of both brothers.Why would Sasukes or Madaras tomoe seal appear if he's using Itachis/Izunas eyes?_


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2011)

guys lol..

What happens is this :

blind useless eyes are transplanted to a new host. And voila, they become functioning set of eyes + they evolve to the next stage.

Where did it mention fusion or anything like that ? 

Is it because of the 4 eyes demon like thingy ?


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## SaiST (Dec 20, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Is it because of the 4 eyes demon like thingy ?


It's that, the combination of the Mangekyou Sharingan's Tomoe Seals, and the confusion over how Izuna and so many other Uchiha were left with empty eye sockets over the past century.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Which would be a perfectly acceptable theory if there were any indication of such a sealing ritual for two pairs of eyes existing.


Yeah that makes sence.I forgot that the eyes themselfs inherit the chakra of the original user even after their death.Thx for clearing it up

My idea of a sealing ritual actually came from the creature you mentioned.

The same creature appears behind Itachi when he tells Sasuke about his plan.
(I know it all happens in a Genjutsu)

The interesting part is that this creature behind Itachi is missing two eyes and tries to rip Sasukes Sharingan out.


That was what made me think it could be the ritual that's fusing those eyes.Since it's showing 4 sockets and not 2.
I'm really looking forward to Kishis explanation about this.And some other things of course


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## SaiST (Dec 20, 2011)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> My idea of a sealing ritual actually came from the creature you mentioned.
> 
> The same creature appears behind Itachi when he tells Sasuke about his plan.
> (I know it all happens in a Genjutsu)
> ...


Symbolic, yo.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Symbolic, yo.


Or a hint, yo.


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## BlinkST (Dec 20, 2011)

That was just genjutsu though. Really, what exactly is that thing, otherwise?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Dec 20, 2011)

Blinx-182 said:


> That was just genjutsu though. Really, what exactly is that thing, otherwise?



Final Villain 



SaiST said:


> It's that, the combination of the Mangekyou Sharingan's Tomoe Seals, and the confusion over how Izuna and so many other Uchiha were left with empty eye sockets over the past century.



Izuna had empty eye sockets because his eyes were removed. 

Madara's eyes were probably thrown to a dumpster.


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## First Tsurugi (Dec 20, 2011)

Wasn't it stated that merely transplanting eyes between brothers isn't enough?

I thought Itachi said something to that effect, which would answer why you can't simply swap eyes, though it wouldn't really explain why.

The brother who got the short end of the stick would just be left with a set of blind eyes.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Final Villain
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well did Izuna die without eyes or...


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## G Felon (Dec 20, 2011)

Why can't anyone properly read the manga, watch the show or read naruto wiki. The fact that this is a thread exists shows how all of you can't read properly they said it a thousand times "transplant eyes" there is no fusion were did you people get that from? This is as ridiculous as the obito theory.....c'mon people.


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## Golden Circle (Dec 20, 2011)

Ehh, it's both. It's an exchange of eyes, but the powers fuse.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

G Felon said:


> Why can't anyone properly read the manga, watch the show or read naruto wiki. The fact that this is a thread exists shows how all of you can't read properly they said it a thousand times "transplant eyes" there is no fusion were did you people get that from? This is as ridiculous as the obito theory.....c'mon people.


Dude:



> transplant,
> v 1. to remove and plant in another place, as from one body or part of a body to another.
> n 2. implantation of living or nonliving tissue or bone into another part of the body; it then serves as a scaffold in the healing process and is progressively resorbed and replaced by newly formed bone.
> v 3. to move a tooth or tissue from one site to another, often but not always autogenously.


As far as my english skills allow me to understand this definition and adding  my logical understanding aswell,  a "transplant" doesn't neccessarily include an exchange, or a swap.

A doctor could transplant me an additional finger if I wanted to.That doesn't mean I don't already have fingers.Of course that finger would be useless since my body doesn't provide any nerves to control that finger.But considering that we are talking about a fictional Manga where people can summon giant Toads, fire black flames out of their strangely shaped red eyes and have faces of dead people on their arms, it's not that unlikely that those eyes are fused in some way using a seal.


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## Edo Madara (Dec 20, 2011)

lol i dont think kishi gives too much thought about this
dont think too much about science or anything just enjoy the manga


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## SaiST (Dec 20, 2011)

Golden Circle said:


> Ehh, it's both. It's an exchange of eyes, but the powers fuse.


That would describe the first option. 

When folks are talking about the eyes fusing, they're thinking that they're being physically merged, like two eyeballs being smashed together.



Shikamaru Nara said:


> As far as my english skills allow me to understand this definition and adding  my logical understanding aswell,  a "transplant" doesn't neccessarily include an exchange, or a swap.



*Spoiler*: _YOOOOOO_ 





SaiST said:


> 4ghost said:
> 
> 
> > Just as an aside, even if the term transplant were used, that is not really definitive proof that the original eye is completely replaced.
> ...


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## Uzumakinaru (Dec 20, 2011)

It's easier to say that Madara cheated on his brother, taking his eyes and destroying his own. He is a lier, people still believe that his brother just gave his MS to him?


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> That would describe the first option.
> 
> When folks are talking about the eyes fusing, they're thinking that they're being physically merged, like two eyeballs being smashed together.



You sure the "exchange" is not referring to the hosts or users?

Did somone maybe already requested further translation/explanation of this in the translation section?Maybe that could help.


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## Jizznificent (Dec 20, 2011)

lol what if madara and izuna actually did exchange eyes: madara got izuna's eyes and dot the jackpot (EMS); izuna got madara's eye but got nothing at all and was still left blind ? lucky madara.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Dec 20, 2011)

Jizznificent said:


> lol what if madara and izuna actually did exchange eyes: madara got izuna's eyes and dot the jackpot (EMS); izuna got madara's eye but got nothing at all and was still left blind ? lucky madara.


 I'd lol so hard.But why did Izuna had bandages over his eyes when we saw him in his coffin?Kishis final troll? 

But idc right now actually.What would it change right now?Sasuke has an EMS.Itachi is an Edo.Madara is an Edo and has EMS + Rinnegan.And if Tobi is an Uchiha he doesn't seem to be interested in getting an EMS since he has a Rinnegan aswell.It'd just be extremely stupid that no one did it b4.This eye swap plug and play thing is stupid anyways.

But I personally could wait till Kishi shows us Sasukes eyes swimming in a bottle or not.But I just can't help it and always have to discuss this stuff  Stupid me...


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## vegeta2002 (Dec 20, 2011)

Madara discovered the Eternal MS. When he was going blind and did not know what to do, do you think he stole and implanted Izuna's working set of eyes or do you think he combined the two and hoped that something good would happen? 

Why would Madara risk combining the first (possibly only) two mangekyo sharingans without knowing the results? How did Madara fuse two sharingans while blind and with no previous experience? The whole idea that the fusion of sharingan powers is a physical one doesn't make sense under further scrutiny.


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## Jeαnne (Dec 20, 2011)

SaiST said:


> Symbolic, yo.


we cant always take everything as symbolic , a lot of things that kishi puts in the manga are not symbolic.


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## PikaCheeka (Dec 20, 2011)

Uzumakinaru said:


> It's easier to say that Madara cheated on his brother, taking his eyes and destroying his own. He is a lier, people still believe that his brother just gave his MS to him?



Disagree here but I had to rep you for making me laugh with your Freudian slip.

We have no real reason to NOT believe him in that instance. He lied about some things and told the truth about others. Just because someone is a villain, it doesn't mean that everything they ever did was evil and/or nobody ever cared about them.

Far more things support the idea that Izuna willingly sacrificed his eyes than otherwise.


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## BlinkST (Dec 20, 2011)

That's not Madara though, so you can't really trust him on that kind of information.


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## Naklin (Dec 20, 2011)

Jizznificent said:


> lol what if madara and izuna actually did exchange eyes: madara got izuna's eyes and dot the jackpot (EMS); izuna got madara's eye but got nothing at all and was still left blind ? lucky madara.



Another thing, what if it is actually an exchange but whoever's eyes get taken out first cannot possibly be able to find his brother's eyes and transplant them. And if the brother is a jerk, then there is no way that the brother would help him. Maybe that's what happened to Izuna


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## Dolohov27 (Dec 20, 2011)

Everything he said from Madara point of view is true though, like becoming the second Rikudou an whatnot.


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## Yuna (Dec 20, 2011)

Itachi said that "countless" Uchiha lives were lost when siblings tried to kill each other for their eyes. If it was a question of a mere exchange, *why didn't they just exchange eyes* and create a clan just *bursting* with Eternal Mangekyou Sharingans?

And why did Izuna have to make any kind of sacrifice? They could've just jammed Madara's eyes into his eyesockets and voila, an Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan tag team.


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## Thdyingbreed (Dec 20, 2011)

I think it's a fusion, and the thing with four sets of eyes in the head symbolizes it a swap seems too simple imo


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## SaiST (Dec 20, 2011)

Yuna said:


> Itachi said that "countless" Uchiha lives were lost when siblings tried to kill each other for their eyes. If it was a question of a mere exchange, *why didn't they just exchange eyes* and create a clan just *bursting* with Eternal Mangekyou Sharingans?


Pretty sure I've been through this with you already. 


*Spoiler*: _Well, whatever_ 





SaiST said:


> The taboo nature of the Mangekyou Sharingan in general, combined with the strict requirements of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, are perfectly sensible reasons as to why Madara and Sasuke have been the only success stories thus far.
> 
> To begin with, those capable of awakening the Sharingan within the Uchiha clan are rare. Those with the capacity to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan, even moreso. And then to expedite this process, they must betray, and murder those closest to them–likely fellow clansmen or villagers–to awaken it's power. And to make that power permanent, they can only take the Mangekyou Sharingan of those with close blood ties to them... Think about it, considering those circumstances, what are the chances of things falling into place so conveniently?





SaiST said:


> Faustus said:
> 
> 
> > That "basic" explanation doesn't explain secondary proof - why 2 brothers couldn't just switch their eyes and both would have EMS. Or maybe this proof is the most important   Why all these "killing brothers" through Uchiha history?
> ...








> _And why did Izuna have to make any kind of sacrifice? They could've just jammed Madara's eyes into his eyesockets and voila, an Eternal Mangekyou Sharingan tag team._



*Spoiler*: _Perhaps if they knew, they would have_ 





SaiST said:


> Madara and Izuna were the first two to awaken the Mangekyou Sharingan. And unless it turns out that Rikudou Sennin's stone tablet made mention of it, they should have had no way of knowing how to perfect their Doujutsu.
> 
> Madara was mostly, or *completely* blind... And desperate. Izuna's Mangekyou Sharingan were still functional. Assuming that Tobi's story is true, and Izuna did willingly offer up his eyes to his older brother, he would have had no good reason to take his brother's, as they would have considered them useless. Considering the nature of clans, and the way they like to protect the secrets of their bloodlines, it would've made perfect sense to destroy them at that point. Even if they hadn't destroyed them, Izuna could have already fallen in battle by the time Madara realized the amazing additional benefits of exchanging his brother's eyes with his own.
> 
> But again, this is assuming that Tobi was telling the truth. We know that he was willing to twist the facts a bit in order to gain even a little bit of Sasuke's trust. It's also possible that Madara, being as desperate as he was, simply betrayed his brother.


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Dec 27, 2011)

> SaiST said:
> 
> 
> > *Spoiler*: _Also_
> ...


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Dec 27, 2011)

> Then don't, they're terrible examples in this case.
> 
> Those are details related to important plot revelations. This is a simple matter of confirming Sasuke's possession of a technique that has already been well established, long after he has not only taken his Mangekyou Sharingan to it's limits, but has gone and transcended those limits by exchanging them with his brother's Mangekyou Sharingan.
> 
> If he had Tsukuyomi, the Genjutsu he's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan would've been identified as such by now. There's no point in avoiding it.



 Than this is an important plot revelation as Sasuke fights with his new power he will put to rest & answer some questions: 1. Swap or Fusion 2. What power is unlocked with EMS? 3. My favorite. What are Sasuke's left & right eye MS jutsu? 




> Only in your mind, depressing as that may be.








> This specific event, this particular moment in which Itachi's fingers make contact with Sasuke's head, just so happens to be the very moment—the *ONLY* moment—that this transference of douryoku takes place.
> 
> So it makes perfect sense to observe the finer details of this specific event, and the results of it, to ascertain not only *how* this douryoku was given, but come to a better understanding of the *extent* of it.
> 
> ...



 But you are leaving out some key details. When Madara asked Sasuke what Itachi did Sasuke was surprised. Why was he surprised? We also find out that Itachi said something "Sorry Sasuke, but this is the last time.". The last time of what? Itachi is clearly mentioning something he did before. I can say those pics are focusing on his fingers which just happen to have blood on them, which can be replaced with any liquid.




> Why should I? He offered his own interpretation of the Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities in response to my own.
> 
> I don't see eye to eye on all of it, but the reasons behind that are already being discussed.



 Fair enough




> Which basically ends up with the same result.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[/QUOTE]

 Why do you think that is? He clearly has a left & right if he has Susano'o, that would prove without a shadow of a doubt Tobi is not Madara or has a part of him mainly his eyes. Jikuukan is that the name that was stated in the manga? If not the haven't been named yet? Were was it stated that they were of the same eye? I can understand S/T warping & bringing to and from another dimesion being of the same move, but S/T warping & Intangiblity are fundamentally different. The key word similar it's not the same. Were was the Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi's history implied at? 



SaiST said:


> [EDIT] - Missed this post:
> 
> ... Not quite.
> 
> ...


The concept is the same. Think of it as a tripwire, if it has a bomb you blow up, if it has a gun you get shoot, if it has a spear you get impaled. The effects may be different but they activate the sameway, you trip the wire your screwed.

 Alot of things get sealed most are not even physical things, like souls. Also those tailed "beast" are not actaul beasts but masses of chakra with minds. No matter what the name of the seal it's still a SEAL.



> The sealing technique was set to activate at the sight of the Sharingan belonging to *Tobi*, who Itachi *believed* to be Madara. Regardless of who Tobi actually is, or to whom that Sharingan he's got stuck in his right eye socket right now originated with, *that* is the eye that Itachi specified to be the trigger for releasing that sealed ocular power.


Yes and this is one of the biggest things to disprove the exchange/ transplant threory. If Itachi KNEW Madara exchanged his eyes for Izuna's why did he set the trap for Madara's eyes and not Izuna's eyes. The crow trap Itachi said Sasuke would use his eyes so he set it for those that would fit the transplant threory but the first trap totally throws doubt on it. Another detail that should be consider is that Itachi said Madara was alive and HIS eyes were intact, a reasonal explanation is that Itachi needs to see or know about the eye which is why he set the crow trap for his eye and not Sasuke's eye which he has not seen. 



> Itachi did not hold such intimate details of Madara or Izuna from nearly a century ago—he didn't even know much about Tobi(and Tobi was quite thankful for that).


Itachi is the one who told Sasuke Madara was alive. Both Itachi and Tobi said Itachi sought Madara out. Itachi is also the one who SHOWED Sasuke Madara & Izuna's early days. A century ago I'm pretty sure it wasn't that far back.



> I don't think you really understood what he's trying to get across.
> 
> If Sasuke's ability to willingly cast Amaterasu from his own Mangekyou Sharingan was the result of Itachi's Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, as you believe, why does his Sharingan's Tomoe Seal no longer take on the appearance of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan while casting it?... Y'know, since you seem to be under the impression that Amaterasu is Itachi's exclusive, unique ocular power, and Sasuke shouldn't be able to cast it otherwise.


[/QUOTE]
Because Itachi sealed it in his eye. The first time it was used from his body was not his doing. Were we disagree at is what happened after the trap was set, you beleive Sasuke used up all of the power(Amaterasu) on Tobi but the flames just barly caught his shoulder and upper bicep. I think it was sealed and after the trap it remained until he got his MS and was capable to use it himself.


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## Dolohov27 (Dec 27, 2011)

Its not simple eye exchange that would be to easy, remember one does does simply walk into Mordor.


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## Kiss (Dec 28, 2011)

I think it's a mix of both.


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## tgm2x (Dec 28, 2011)

Physically exchanging while spiritually merging


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## Edo Madara (Dec 28, 2011)

the formula to unlocked ems 



*=*


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## Klue (Dec 29, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> It's a *SEAL*.
> Like how Shisui's eye was sealed in the crow, souls are sealed in the Death God seal, and the bijuu are sealed in the host.



Shisui's eye was transplanted into the crow. Pretty sure it was done via transplant, using medical jutsu or skills. 

Just like Kakashi's, Ao's and Danzou's. 



Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> So I'm supposed to believe that Itachi sealed Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye, Sasuke used all of that Amaterasu on Tobi, than when Sasuke got his MS he just so happened to unlock the same jutsu he just lost, Amaterasu. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to assume its the same Amaterasu.



Yes.

Why do you think _*ITACHI*_ Mangekyou (design) appeared in Sasuke's eye and not - ummm - Sasuke's Mangekyou?

Sasuke shares the same Doujutsu powers as his brother, because it's likely as Danzou said, they're brothers.

_This shouldn't even be a discussion, because there is an entry about it in the 3rd Databook that was released shortly following that incident._


*Spoiler*: _Databook 3 - Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu_ 




Transcription Seal: Amaterasu (転写封印・天照, Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu)
Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Supplementary, Short range (0-5m)
User: Uchiha Itachi

A ranging fire of black flames, handed out using the "Sharingan" as a medium

[*picture sequence of Sasuke's Sharingan morphing into Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan*]
→The "Sharingan" with the "Amaterasu" sealed into it seizes the target determined by the user...

"Amaterasu," only usable by those who activated the "Mangekyou Sharingan," is the highest ranked ninjutsu from the Fire Release group. "Transcription Seal: Amaterasu" seals this effect into the Sharingan of a third party. Once the eye wherein the technique is sealed sees the specific target, *the seal is broken* and the "black flame that even consumes other flames" swoops down on its prey!!

[picture of Tobi being hit by the Amaterasu]
←Jet-black raging flames spring forth from the eye, attacking the target! There is no way to escape from this fury!

Now burning brightly
A jet-black world-destroying conflagration!!


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## izanagi x izanami (Dec 29, 2011)

Link



> そしてそればかりか　変化を起こした
> Itachi: Perhaps as a consequence, a metamorphosis occurred in his eyes.
> 
> 特有の新しい瞳術がその眼に生まれたのだ
> Itachi: A peculiar new doujutsu was born in them.



EMS is a fusion of DNAs not eyes,

_Dang, bro. Didn't have to quote the entire script. -*SaiST*_


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## SaiST (Dec 31, 2011)

First, I apologize for taking so long to reply to your posts. I just don't have the drive I used to have for back 'n forth debates with huge blocks of texts like this, and the fact that I've already discussed many of these topics at length ain't helping. Though I presume that, this being the holiday season and all, you aren't exactly waiting for my replies with bated breath. 



Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> It's a *SEAL*.


Which was *RELEASED*. 



> _So I'm supposed to believe that Itachi sealed Amaterasu in Sasuke's eye, Sasuke used all of that Amaterasu on Tobi, than when Sasuke got his MS he just so happened to unlock the same jutsu he just lost, Amaterasu._


Yes. Amaterasu wasn't unique to Itachi. Moreover, Sasuke and Itachi are siblings, a relationship which Danzou took note of in response to Sasuke casting Amaterasu around the start of their bout. 


*Spoiler*: _Also, this_ 





_"With that tap, he was, in fact, passing on the ocular ninjutsu, Amaterasu, to Sasuke in order to protect him."-*Viz*_

B-b-but what about TSUKUYOMI Mr. Databook?! ​





> _But it was named and it's ability to compress time was explained. Danzo said "*yours is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi*". I found to different translation but that part didn't change. If they were different jutsu wouldn't a better translation be "*this genjutsu is nothing compared to Itachi's genjutsu, Tsukiyomi*"._


That'd be needlessly redundant.


*Spoiler*: _If somebody's drawing a comparison between two sports cars, claiming_ 



_"I'll commend you for being able to keep up with me in your sports car. But... It's nothing compared to Good Boy Turned Bad's Ferrari Enzo, which can go 0 to 60 in 3.4 seconds."_



Doesn't mean that the former sports car has to be another Ferrari. Just as they are both sports cars, these are both Genjutsu cast from Mangekyou Sharingan wieldin' siblings. Not a single translator I've seen speak on the matter has taken the comparison as anything close to a confirmation that Sasuke possessed Tsukuyomi. The only people insisting on that interpretation are readers that WANT it that way.



> _Ohh there is but it's hard to tell because its a manga. Zetsu was watching the fight, before that part Zetsu was narrating the fight saying it was just genjutsu, and it showed Itachi & Sasuke standing there. Then Itachi did it, Sasuke takes off his cape(?) then throws kunei. The next time we see Zetsu he comments on their speed at throwing kunei. From Zetsu's point of veiw after the genjutsu(before Itachi did it) between the kunei. He didn't mention anything of interest, he didn't notice anything._


The next time we saw Zetsu after remarking upon their motionless contest of Genjutsu, he showed an exclamatory reaction right in the middle of what *we* were seeing of Itachi's Tsukuyomi[1], which was cast AFTER his exchange of shuriken with Sasuke[2]. Between that, we saw nothing of him. Not even during the exchange of shuriken?which we know wasn't a part of any of their illusions, as we could see those shuriken littered on the floor after Sasuke dispelled Tsukuyomi.[3]

That means everything from this point, to the moment Itachi used Tsukuyomi after the shuriken exchange, was all real. There's no indication that the Genjutsu Itachi used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke *before* that point transpired in a single instant?not even Zetsu's lack of commentary, as he didn't even show any reaction to the shuriken exchange that immediately followed.



> _Sasuke can compress time_


... 





> _but not enough that makes a big difference, compressing 5-15 minutes in a second is a far cry from 3 days in a second._


Danzou didn't say Itachi's Tsukuyomi could _"freely alter the victim's sense of time *for much longer*"_, guy. Tobi reiterated Danzou's statement from two chapters prior, and went on to essentially claim that even a weaker Genjutsu?lacking that which makes Tsukuyomi so powerful?can be beneficial if used in a timely fashion.

Please, consider the PURPOSE of the Genjutsu Sasuke cast on Danzou. The first was not only to test if his Genjutsu was strong enough to ensnare Danzou, but to ascertain how long it could be kept up while he went for the killing blow. The second, using the first Genjutsu's results as reference, and a more subtle approach, was to trick Danzou into thinking that the last remaining Sharingan on his arm was still open. The point is that Sasuke cast these two Genjutsu so their effects would last long enough for him to take advantage of them in *reality*. Tsukuyomi, which only lasts for an instant in reality, serves an entirely different purpose.



> _Than this is an important plot revelation_


We know there's a good reason we have yet to see the Tomoe Seal of Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan, or the abilities of Madara's?but what would be the point in skirting this particular issue after Sasuke has gone as far as fully materializing his Susanoo, which is manifested through mastery of the Mangekyou Sharingan's first two techniques? In addition to the fact that none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan have functioned the way Tsukuyomi has been defined, it just wouldn't make sense after coming so far and revealing so many details about his Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities, and paving the way for even MORE to be revealed, just to finally say _"the Genjutsu he's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan was Tsukuyomi after all!"_

Just so you know, .



> _But you are leaving out some key details. When Madara asked Sasuke what Itachi did Sasuke was surprised. Why was he surprised? We also find out that Itachi said something "Sorry Sasuke, but this is the last time.". The last time of what? Itachi is clearly mentioning something he did before._


Itachi always said _"Sorry Sasuke, maybe next time"_ as he did this. In this case, there would be no _"next time"_. That's the significance of Itachi's words.



> _I can say those pics are focusing on his fingers which just happen to have blood on them, which can be replaced with any liquid._


Why do you think the author goes out of his way to emphasize the fact that this blood from Itachi's fingers goes on to make contact with the same eye Itachi's Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu reacts with? What do you think is the significance behind an entire page being dedicated to this incident, immediately after making it so painfully obvious that the blood came as a result of Itachi's actions?

Think about this, then ask yourself how that blood could just be nonchalantly replaced with mud, snot, piss, nuclear waste?and whatever else you brought up earlier. :/



> _Why do you think that is?_


For the same reason the author has yet to reveal the appearance of Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan: sustaining the mystery surrounding his identity. I was simply correcting you; you spoke of Tobi's Jikuukan Ninjutsu as one of the abilities of Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan, when that has yet to be confirmed.



> _Jikuukan is that the name that was stated in the manga?_


Jikuukan = _"Time?Space"_



> _Were was it stated that they were of the same eye? I can understand S/T warping & bringing to and from another dimesion being of the same move, but S/T warping & Intangiblity are fundamentally different._



*Spoiler*: _He's able to make himself intangible because of his Jikuukan Ninjutsu_ 



_"No way...But then again...Assuming he CAN make himself disappear at will, it makes sense he could do the same with individual body parts, too...In other words, he could..."remove" whatever part was about to be hit by an attack, making it appear like the attack just slipped through."-*hisshou*_



What does he use to cast his Jikuukan Ninjtusu? The Sharingan in his right eye socket.



> _The key word similar it's not the same._


More appropiately: _"They may not be the same"_.



> _Were was the Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi's history implied at?_



*Spoiler*: _2nd Databook. Amaterasu's entry_ 



_"...there are not many who have learned this jutsu."_



And there are similar implications within Tsukuyomi's. Never are they spoken of as unique to Itachi. It's perfectly sensible for them to be reoccuring amongst the few Mangekyou Sharingan users that have popped up since Madara's time, for the reasons I pointed out in my earlier reply to Faustus.

Additionally, Madara intends to use a Mugen *Tsukuyomi* after becoming the Juubi's Jinchuuriki and amplifying his ocular powers. Doesn't necessarily *confirm* that he, or even his brother wield(ed) Tsukuyomi, but it lends credence to that notion.


----------



## Star★Platinum (Dec 31, 2011)

Woah, the results are closer than i thought.
I always assumed it was a fusion, hence the fused MS design of the two offspring afterwards, otherwise they could simply trade eyes, and have eternal light and it'd make the sacrifice a little less meaningful.


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## SaiST (Dec 31, 2011)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> The concept is the same.


Besides the fact that these things related to the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai are being rigged somehow, it really isn't.

Shisui's actual eye was transplanted to Itachi's crow, not sealed.
Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan was embedded with a command to brainwash the recipient into a loyal Konoha Shinobi with Kotoamatsukami.
And Itachi's crow was rigged to respond to the douryoku of Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan by casting Kotoamatsukami upon the source.
In the case of Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu, that intangible douryoku, that effect of casting Amaterasu, was sealed into Sasuke's left eye, and rigged to release once Sasuke caught sight of Tobi's Sharingan.



> _Yes and this is one of the biggest things to disprove the exchange/ transplant threory._



*Spoiler*: _That ain't no theory, that's what we've been told_ 



_"By [highlight]changing hosts[/highlight], the [highlight]younger brother's eyes[/highlight] found an inextinguishable light"_



You guys rambling on about eyeball fusing and sealing rituals are those that bear the burden of proof. 



> _If Itachi KNEW Madara exchanged his eyes for Izuna's why did he set the trap for Madara's eyes and not Izuna's eyes. The crow trap Itachi said Sasuke would use his eyes so he set it for those that would fit the transplant threory but the first trap totally throws doubt on it._


Again, Itachi did not personally know either Madara or Izuna. He knew Tobi, who claimed to be Madara. He could only set Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu to release based on intel he had gathered from personal interaction with this individual impersonating Madara?which only went as far as the mere sight of his Sharingan.

Regardless of who Tobi really is, or who's eyes he has, Itachi would have no way of comparing the more intimate details of Tobi and his eyes, to that of Madara, Izuna, and their eyes from nearly a century prior. Recent events should make it clear that while Itachi may have known more than he let on, he didn't know *everything*.


*Spoiler*: _Case in point_ 





> _Another detail that should be consider is that Itachi said Madara was alive_


How'd that turn out? Who just got ressurected as Kabuto's trump card?

Hm? Hm? 

​





> _and HIS eyes were intact_



*Spoiler*: _He said Madara's douryoku(瞳力) was intact, not his physical eyes_ 



その主導権争いに敗れはしたが　マダラは今も　その[highlight]瞳力[/highlight]と共に在り続けている



It was mentioned immediately afterwards, on the next page, that Tobi used the Kyuubi sixteen years ago to attack Konoha, just as Madara did nearly a century ago. Bijuu subjugation being Madara's power[1], and Tobi possessing power great enough to do the same[2]?hence, the claim of Madara's _"power"_ being intact.

And even that doesn't prove that Itachi had the means of comparing the root of that power, to that of the real Madara's, or Izuna's.


*Spoiler*: _As an aside, concerning Madara's physical eyes_ 



This doesn't mean they aren't still around out there. But there's understandably a lot of doubt and confusion surrounding this entire situation since all of these plot points have been revealed:
That Tobi has been impersonating Madara...
Who awakened to the power of the Rinnegan shortly before his actual death...
Which couldn't have happened until Nagato was at least born, as Madara was aware of his existence...
In addition to that of Tobi's, who seems to have been in cahoots with Madara...
And claims that he was responsible for giving Nagato the Rinnegan...
Which Tobi also claims belonged to him in the first place shortly thereafter.

_... *cough*izuna**hack!**..._​





> _Itachi is also the one who SHOWED Sasuke Madara & Izuna's early days._


Which was just illusionary imagery that could have been shown to him before by Tobi. Doesn't mean he had sufficient knowledge of their abilities to equip his Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu with something quite as particular as the trigger he set up for the crow wielding Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan. And thus, something to compare with this man impersonating Madara.

Now, bringing up Itachi's crow has brought something interesting to mind~ 

Itachi rigged his crow to react to his Mangekyou Sharingan's douryoku, in order to cast Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke. Itachi knew this would happen because he was confident that Sasuke would take his eyes to acquire the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan... But, if Sasuke already had Tsukuyomi 'n Amaterasu?Itachi's douryoku?permanently sealed up in his eyes as you claim, he would've met the conditions before even taking his brother's eyes, right?

Please, explain.



> _A century ago I'm pretty sure it wasn't that far back._


I did say _"nearly"_. It's been more around seventy years, if you want to be nit-picky about it... It rounds off! The point I'm trying to get across is that it's been a WHILE!


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 15, 2012)

> SaiST
> First, I apologize for taking so long to reply to your posts. I just don't have the drive I used to have for back 'n forth debates with huge blocks of texts like this, and the fact that I've already discussed many of these topics at length ain't helping. Though I presume that, this being the holiday season and all, you aren't exactly waiting for my replies with bated breath.



 And I answer two weeks later after such an apology. I know how you feel as I have lost some drive(although for different reasons).




> Which was *RELEASED*.



 I see it more as the trap being "activated" rather than being "dismantled" if you follow my tripwire analogy. So your impling that at that moment Sasuke used up all the "power" Itachi gave him, I'm under the impression that their was more "power" left over.




> Yes. Amaterasu wasn't unique to Itachi. Moreover, Sasuke and Itachi are siblings, a relationship which Danzou took note of in response to Sasuke casting Amaterasu around the start of their bout.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Also, this_
> ...



*Spoiler*: _Also, this_ 





 That was from the databook? Than I must thank tou for adding that for it supports what I have been saying. Which tou translated an tried to hide in small text. 

*"With that tap, he was, in fact, passing on the ocular ninjutsu, Amaterasu, to Sasuke in order to protect him."*

 The *TAP*(which I refer to as the forehead poke) is more important than the blood(I'll comment on the blood a little later). 



> B-b-but what about TSUKUYOMI Mr. Databook?!








> That'd be needlessly redundant.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _If somebody's drawing a comparison between two sports cars, claiming_
> ...



 I think this is one of the big parts where we don't see eye to eye an is a big roadblock in  us seeing eye to eye. My opinion an understand of the part is that Danzou is not comparing the sports car(genjutsu in question) but the people driving the sports car.

Danzou said "*Congrats on putting me in a genjutsu, but*" or "*I commend you on caughting me in an illusion, but*". In your comparison with the Ferrari "I'll commend you for being able to keep up with me in your sports car. But". For the first part.

 The second part Danzou said "*yours is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which could control the length of the illusion*" or "*yours is nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, who could control the time and length of the illusion is as different as heaven and earth.*"(I like and feel the second longer is better and more clear in the wording, even though they are saying the same thing.). The second part of your comparison would be more accurate if you said "*It's nothing compared to Good Boy Turned Bad's Ferrari Enzo, which can go 0 to 60 in 3.4 seconds faster than you*." or "*It's nothing compared to Good Boy Turned Bad's Ferrari Enzo, who can go 0 to 60 in 3.4 seconds faster than you and also drift is as different as a Nascar driver and a regular driver*."

 Danzo is comparing the effective use of the genjutsu in question between the two brothers. Danzou gives Sasuke a backhanded complement than insults his skill compared to Itachi with the genjutsu(Tsukiyomi). Madara also confirms this by saying its just as you said but he knows how to use it.

 On the Databook, I said this to someone awhile ago. the databook is just a book that organizes the data we have already learned. Their good for remembering old data not gaining new info. I bet early books said Itachi was a bad guy, Pain was the leader of Akatsuki, Minato no the Fourth hokage(has name was not known at the time) just used the death seal to put the fox in Naruto an other such things that changed in later Databooks.




> The next time we saw Zetsu after remarking upon their motionless contest of Genjutsu, he showed an exclamatory reaction right in the middle of what *we* were seeing of Itachi's Tsukuyomi[1], which was cast AFTER his exchange of shuriken with Sasuke[2]. Between that, we saw nothing of him. Not even during the exchange of shuriken?which we know wasn't a part of any of their illusions, as we could see those shuriken littered on the floor after Sasuke dispelled Tsukuyomi.[3]
> 
> That means everything from this point, to the moment Itachi used Tsukuyomi after the shuriken exchange, was all real. There's no indication that the Genjutsu Itachi used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke *before* that point transpired in a single instant?not even Zetsu's lack of commentary, as he didn't even show any reaction to the shuriken exchange that immediately followed.



 Wow I re-read those chapters over this is the sequence of events Chp 385 Pg 13 Pnl 1 Zetsu comments on genjutsu battle, Chp 386 Pg 4 Pnl 1 Itachi puts  Sasuke in Tsukiyomi showing Madara & Izuna, Chp 386 Pg 15 Pnl 5 Itachi lets sauke out, Chp 387 Pg 12 Pnl 3 Itachi puts Sasuke in a SECOND Tsukiyomi, Chp 388 Pg 11 Pnl 5 Sasuke "breaks out" of the SECOND Tsukiyomi, Chp 388 Pg 13 Pnl 1 Zetsu comments on Itachi winning because he caught Sasuke in that SECOND Tsukiyomi.


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 15, 2012)

> Danzou didn't say Itachi's Tsukuyomi could _"freely alter the victim's sense of time *for much longer*"_, guy. Tobi reiterated Danzou's statement from two chapters prior, and went on to essentially claim that even a weaker Genjutsulacking that which makes Tsukuyomi so powerfulcan be beneficial if used in a timely fashion.
> 
> Please, consider the PURPOSE of the Genjutsu Sasuke cast on Danzou. The first was not only to test if his Genjutsu was strong enough to ensnare Danzou, but to ascertain how long it could be kept up while he went for the killing blow. The second, using the first Genjutsu's results as reference, and a more subtle approach, was to trick Danzou into thinking that the last remaining Sharingan on his arm was still open. The point is that Sasuke cast these two Genjutsu so their effects would last long enough for him to take advantage of them in *reality*. Tsukuyomi, which only lasts for an instant in reality, serves an entirely different purpose.



 I don't understand this statement  "Danzou didn't say Itachi's Tsukuyomi could _"freely alter the victim's sense of time *for much longer*"_" 

 Danzou said "*But that's nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which could control the time of the illusion*". I don't like this translation it doesn't make any sense. How can the illusion control it's own time? As I said before I like the other translation. "*But that's nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, WHO can control the time and length of the illusion are as different as heaven and earth.*"  This translation is more clear and plainly states that Itachi is far superior with Tsukiyomi. Also when Itachi first used Tsukiyomi on Kakashi Itachi said In the Tsukiyomi I control time & space in this world", Danzou didn't say that Itachi said that HIMSELF.

 I understand the PURPOSE, but your overlooking the REASON. Why would he test Tsukiyomi(or any genjutsu) in such a way. Because he is not a Genjutsu user. Sasuke is not used to doing genjutsu in battle as he is a Ninjutsu user and relies on ninjutsu but that wasn't working so he switched it up, it was made clear that he does not have the skill with genjutsu like a Genjutsu specialist(Itachi specificly). 




> We know there's a good reason we have yet to see the Tomoe Seal of Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan, or the abilities of Madara'sbut what would be the point in skirting this particular issue after Sasuke has gone as far as fully materializing his Susanoo, which is manifested through mastery of the Mangekyou Sharingan's first two techniques? In addition to the fact that none of the Genjutsu Sasuke's cast from his Mangekyou Sharingan have functioned the way Tsukuyomi has been defined, it just wouldn't make sense after coming so far and revealing so many details about his Mangekyou Sharingan's abilities, and paving the way for even MORE to be revealed, just to finally say _"the Genjutsu he's been casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan was Tsukuyomi after all!"_
> 
> Just so you know, .



 But we haven't seen Sasuke's MS abilites, we've seen his MS design, skills with his brothers techniques, & his skill with his Susano'o. That's it. Actually through out the course of the whole manga we have seen Sasuke using other people's powers.




> Itachi always said _"Sorry Sasuke, maybe next time"_ as he did this. In this case, there would be no _"next time"_. That's the significance of Itachi's words.



 Your leaving out the action he always did while saying those words. Itachi would call Sasuke over TAP Sasuke's forehead(as I have referred to it "poke" his forehead), than say those words.




> Why do you think the author goes out of his way to emphasize the fact that this blood from Itachi's fingers goes on to make contact with the same eye Itachi's Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu reacts with? What do you think is the significance behind an entire page being dedicated to this incident, immediately after making it so painfully obvious that the blood came as a result of Itachi's actions?
> 
> Think about this, then ask yourself how that blood could just be nonchalantly replaced with mud, snot, piss, nuclear wasteand whatever else you brought up earlier. :/



 As I said earler I'll explain the blood. The blood that ran down Sasuke's face made it look like Sasuke was crying. Crying, when Sasuke remembered the night of the Massacre he said Itachi was crying, the Pic that was shown looked similar but was alittle off compared to the Pic in Sasuke's telling off his one ambition. The blood could symbolize Itachi's pain, the crying could symbolize that Itachi had passed that pain to Sasuke. Passing something to someone younger like the Will of fire passing from the older generation to the younger generation. In that one scene alot of themes(from Brothers, Bonds, Will of Fire, The Uchiha Eyes, Older & Younger Generations) were touched upon there. Or that could just be me "Looking To Close, And Should Take A Step Back."  takes off shades  




> For the same reason the author has yet to reveal the appearance of Tobi's Mangekyou Sharingan: sustaining the mystery surrounding his identity. I was simply correcting you; you spoke of Tobi's Jikuukan Ninjutsu as one of the abilities of Madara's Mangekyou Sharingan, when that has yet to be confirmed.


 I didn't confirm that, I'm suggesting that it's a high possibility that the abilities Tobi are using are Madara's MS techinques. The fact that neither Tobi's MS design and Madara"s left or right eye MS have been shown yet jutsu prove this possiblity. It may do nothing for the Tobi=Madara but it is highly possible for Tobi's Eyes= Madara's Eyes as either would dispel that.  




> Jikuukan = _"TimeSpace"_



 Ok



> He's able to make himself intangible because of his Jikuukan Ninjutsu_"No way...But then again...Assuming he CAN make himself disappear at will, it makes sense he could do the same with individual body parts, too...In other words, he could..."remove" whatever part was about to be hit by an attack, making it appear like the attack just slipped through."-*hisshou*_
> What does he use to cast his Jikuukan Ninjtusu? The Sharingan in his right eye socket.



 I have an alternate idea on his S/T warping & Intangiblity. The S/t warping & Madara's pocket dimesion are the same thing & in his right eye, while his Intangiblity is in is left eye. Tobi doesn't show his left eye while he does it because it's not nessecary, unlike the majority of MS techniques, which have to be shown to focus on the target. The Intangiblity focuses on the USER, so it doesn't matter if the eye is shown or not as the target is the one casting it.  




> More appropiately: _"They may not be the same"_.



Agreed 



> *Spoiler*: _2nd Databook. Amaterasu's entry_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 I have not read a Databook so comment on this but from what has been shown of the few MS users they all unlocked different jutsus, just like different MS designs, and different Susano'os


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 15, 2012)

> SaiST
> Besides the fact that these things related to the Uchiha's Kekkei Genkai are being rigged somehow, it really isn't.
> 
> Shisui's actual eye was transplanted to Itachi's crow, not sealed.
> ...



 I guess my analogy to a tripwire trap was not sufficient. The minor details of the traps making & it's effects when it goes off may be different but they still both work in the same way. When he target sets off the trap it activates and the effect goes off. The concept is the same.




> That ain't no theory, that's what we've been told_"By [highlight]changing hosts[/highlight], the [highlight]younger brother's eyes[/highlight] found an inextinguishable light"_
> You guys rambling on about eyeball fusing and sealing rituals are those that bear the burden of proof.



 I would like to quote what Tobi said to Naruto at the end of Chp 564. 
"*If you wanna see what's under my mask... You're gonna have to work for it." * 
 I feel that fits here, and that statement is more to the readers than Naruto.



> Again, Itachi did not personally know either Madara or Izuna. He knew Tobi, who claimed to be Madara. He could only set Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu to release based on intel he had gathered from personal interaction with this individual impersonating Madara?which only went as far as the mere sight of his Sharingan.



 You know I've been thinking about this. I looked through  plenty of old chapters and I noticed that Itachi may have NEVER met Tobi in person. The only time they have been shown together is with the projection technique of Pain. The only time they have been shown PHYSICALLY together in the flashback when "Tobi" had long hair, plus his statement Madara is alive and well with as are his eyes. Take a look at Edo Madara his eyes are with him, he died with them intact, also turn hm side ways an slap a mask on him, & I'll bet that profile will match that of Tobi's in the woods that day.



> Regardless of who Tobi really is, or who's eyes he has, Itachi would have no way of comparing the more intimate details of Tobi and his eyes, to that of Madara, Izuna, and their eyes from nearly a century prior. Recent events should make it clear that while Itachi may have known more than he let on, he didn't know *everything*.
> 
> Case in point
> How'd that turn out? Who just got ressurected as Kabuto's trump card?
> ...



 You know, I been thinking about this, too. And Kabuto's detailed explaination of Edo Tensai came to mind. 1) You need a sacrifice. 2) You need dna of the one you want to summon. 3) The SOUL of the one you want to summon has to be in the pure world. Kabuto never said the person had to be dead, thou...  WHAT? stop lookining at me like that. Like I was saying. Kabuto never said the person has to be dead even though if the persons SOUL is in the pure world 99% they are dead. I can find one exception Orochimaru waves his SOULESS hands at you(painfully it might add), even though his hands are not in the pure world. 

 Yeah it's a stretch but I would like to point out when the Sarutobi said Minato used the Death God seal to put the Kyuubi in Naruto. That did not make sense, then when it wa shown it's revealed that it was Minato & Kushina tht used the Death God seal in combination with other techniques. It may not be definative proof but it's not impossible and I'm not gonna rule it out.



> "He said Madara's douryoku(瞳力) was intact, not his physical eyes."
> "その主導権争いに敗れはしたが　マダラは今も　その[highlight]瞳力[/highlight]と共に在り続けている"
> It was mentioned immediately afterwards, on the next page, that Tobi used the Kyuubi sixteen years ago to attack Konoha, just as Madara did nearly a century ago. Bijuu subjugation being Madara's power[1][/size], and Tobi possessing power great enough to do the same[2]?hence, the claim of Madara's _"power"_ being intact.
> 
> And even that doesn't prove that Itachi had the means of comparing the root of that power, to that of the real Madara's, or Izuna's.



 That doesn't prove he was right or wrong but the manga suggest that this is the data he used make his trap with.



> As an aside, concerning Madara's physical eyes. This doesn't mean they aren't still around out there. But there's understandably a lot of doubt and confusion surrounding this entire situation since all of these plot points have been revealed:
> That Tobi has been impersonating Madara...
> Who awakened to the power of the Rinnegan shortly before his actual death...
> Which couldn't have happened until Nagato was at least born, as Madara was aware of his existence...
> ...



 There are logical situations were all those can be true.
1) Madara & Tobi were working together from the beginning. They both wore similar mask so they both could use the name "Madara Uchiha" or they had one mask they both shared. One wore the mask while in public. The other did things secretly without the mask & vise versa. Both would produce the same result but I'll go with the former.
2) Madara did most things himself with the mask(he was in hiding) then he made Tobi sometime before he died. I don't have to add the mask part because either could still be true.
3) Madara unlocking the Rinnegan & how Nagato got it could only have happen in one way. Madara unlocked it than he ordered Tobi to give it to Nagato when he died(Madara died with them intact or he would not have them now). In what way Nagato got them is a different story. Tobi could have kept the eyes and just gave Nagato some of it's powers or Tobi gave the eyes to Nagato but kept some of it's power for himself. Either could be true paired with either 1) or 2).
4) Both claming the eyes are their is because they both used the name "Madara Uchiha", since those eyes belonged to Madara Uchiha or Madara had them first than they belong to Tobi after Madara whether Madara let him have it or Tobi stole them claiming them for himself. Still those could be paired with 1), 2), or 3).  



> Which was just illusionary imagery that could have been shown to him before by Tobi. Doesn't mean he had sufficient knowledge of their abilities to equip his Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu with something quite as particular as the trigger he set up for the crow wielding Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan. And thus, something to compare with this man impersonating Madara.



 OR both the Manga statements said by Itachi("Madara is alive and well so are his eyes") and Tobi("Itachi is the only one that found me out". Tobi referring to himself as Madara) are TRUE, with what I said about Itachi using that data to make his trap.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 15, 2012)

> Now, bringing up Itachi's crow has brought something interesting to mind~
> 
> Itachi rigged his crow to react to his Mangekyou Sharingan's douryoku, in order to cast Kotoamatsukami on Sasuke. Itachi knew this would happen because he was confident that Sasuke would take his eyes to acquire the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan... But, if Sasuke already had Tsukuyomi 'n Amaterasu?Itachi's douryoku?permanently sealed up in his eyes as you claim, he would've met the conditions before even taking his brother's eyes, right?
> 
> Please, explain.



 I brought up this very point a while ago, I dont remember it it was to you or somebody else. I said Itachi gave Sasuke the power of his eyes, then Sasuke unlocked his own MS shortly after. I asked when he revealed his MS design by the water(he unlocked the MS in the cave), why did his eyes not instantly become EMS at that point? Then I asked why did Sasuke ask Tobi for Itachi's powerless eyes if he already had everything he needed to make EMS without them? I don't recall getting any answer to either of these questions.



> I did say _"nearly"_. It's been more around seventy years, if you want to be nit-picky about it... It rounds off! The point I'm trying to get across is that it's been a WHILE!



 Seventy years that's still a bit to long. I'm pretty certain it was between late 40s or early 50s(like in between 47-53 range) give or take a couple years. How can I be so sure? Visual clues, specifically Hashirama, Tobimaru, & Madara. 

1) When Orochimaru brought Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobimaru, what is the difference in age between Edo Hashirama and Hashirama that we saw the first time we saw him in the grassy plain against Madara? Or at Hashirama t VOTE?
2) In one of Tsunade's flashback Hashirama is rubbing a young Tsunades head Tobimaru is standing next to Hashirama. What was Hashirama's age than compared to Edo Hashirama? What was Tsunade's age than? What is Tsunade's age now? 
3) In Tobi's story after Hashirama died Tobimaru gave the Uchiha the duty of police. What was Tobimaru's age than compared to Edo Tobimara? Or compared to that of when we see him next to young Tsunade?
4) In Danzou story of when Sarutobi became Hokage that mission was when Tobimaru died. So that Tobimaru is probably close in age to that of Edo Tobimaru. So I'll ask what age is that of Danzou & Sarutobi than? What were their ages at their deaths?
5) We see Edo Madara now. What is the age difference of Edo Madara compared to when we first saw him in Itachi's story? Or when he fought Hashirama at VOTE compared to Edo Madara now?
6) When Edo Madara was talking to Tsuchikage he said said he already put him in his place before. It showed a young Tsuchikage to Madara. Tsuchikage also said to Madara "*I LIVED LONGER THAN YOU*". What was Madara's age than to Edo Madara? What is the age of young of Tsuchikage than? What is Tsuchikages age now?
7) Now to questions comparing the three. How long was Hashirama's Hokage-ism? How long was Tobimaru's Hokage-ism? How long was it between the time when Hashirama wasn't Hokage until he became Hokage? How long was it between the time when Tobimaru wasn't Hokage until he became Hokage? When Madara was talking to Tsuchikage, How long was Hashirama died? Or was he still alive at the time?
 Obviously some of these questions don't have to be answered if you answer some of the KEY questions.

 Damn that was alot.


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## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 15, 2012)

Hello Klue-Sama, I don't I've had the pleasure of debating with you as of yet.



Klue said:


> Plurals in Japanese doesn't follow the same procedures as the English language.
> 
> Most words have no plual form, the same word is used for both singular and plural - with rare exceptions. Some nouns have a plural form, such as: Kami (God) becomes Kamigami (Gods).
> 
> ...



 Yes, I have this has been discussed and resolve. I'll summerize for you.

 I said the translation was correct SaiST said it was wrong than showed he a link to a post his friend made which said the kanji that everyone was having trouble with was for Douryoku and that if their is no context can mean eye power(s) or power of the eye since he just translated that word their was no context.

 I pointed out that there was alittle problem with the translation in the fact that one the eye power(s) part was in the singular & plurual while the other was just in singular.

 So I wrote out the Singulars & Plurals. As 

Singulars
Douryoku = eye power 
Douryoku = power of the eye
Douryoku = eye power or power of the eye
Plurals
Douryokus = eye powers
Douryokus = power of the eyes
Douryokus = eye powers or power of the eyes

 SaiST pointed out that the word "Douryokos" doesn't exist.
So I fixed my mistake to be.

Douryoku = eye power
Douryoku = power of the eye
Douryoku = eye power or power of the eye
Douryoku = eye powers
Douryoku = power of the eyes
Douryoku = eye powers or power of the eyes
 Or simply
Douryoku = eye power(s) or power of the eye(s)

 Databooks are for info we learned already not learning new info. As new info becomes available in the manga, "Data" in the Databooks changes      



> Klue
> Shisui's eye was transplanted into the crow. Pretty sure it was done via transplant, using medical jutsu or skills.
> 
> Just like Kakashi's, Ao's and Danzou's.



 That doesn't change the fact that it still acted in the same manner as the trap that used Amateasu. When the target was in range it activated the trap an set it off 



> Yes.
> 
> Why do you think _*ITACHI*_ Mangekyou (design) appeared in Sasuke's eye and not - ummm - Sasuke's Mangekyou?
> 
> ...



 If the brothers theme is a big part then we can conculde that Madara & Izuna had the same MS techniques as well seeing the similarites that have been made between both sets. From what we've have seen of the few MS users, all of their left and right eye jutsus are as different as the MS designs.


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

You know that frustrating feeling that starts bubblin' up, as you watch somebody trying to parallel park in a spot with only a few inches to spare? Forcing their way in, one centimeter at a timedrive, reverse, drive, reverse...

_* SaiST sighs._


*Spoiler*: _AnywaysGood Boy Turned Bad_ 



You'll notice that some blocks of text are a bit out of the order you originally had them in, as I wanted to keep the subjects consistent, with an easier flow to follow. But, I am a mere mortal, and mistakes can be made. So, if you find that any of the context present in your arguments are being tarnished at *all* from this, let it be known so that I may rectify it.





Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> That was from the databook? Than I must thank tou for adding that for it supports what I have been saying. Which tou translated an tried to hide in small text.


Well, I guess I'm trying to be sneaky with all of my quotes. Because, in case you haven't noticed, they were ALL in small text. 

But if you find it difficult to read, I'll stop using it in my replies to you.



> _The *TAP*(which I refer to as the forehead poke) is more important than the blood._


_*WHOOSH!*_ Point missed! You believe Itachi sealed both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in Sasuke's noggin'. Why is Amaterasu the *only one* mentioned in the description of this crucial moment? Why is it that Amaterasu is the only technique *ever* brought upboth in this particular example, and in the mangawhen this transference of _"douryoku"_ is discussed?



> _Your leaving out the action he always did while saying those words._


_"... as he did *this*."_

Referring to the act in question. You've persistently brought this up throughout our discussion, as if I'm being just as obtuse about recognizing the significance behind Itachi's forehead tap as you've been about acknowledging the consequence of it. I recognize them as both important, while you're attempting to completely disregard the latter.

Sasuke is reminded of the tap in particular because that is, as Tobi brought out, specifically what Itachi did to Sasuke before he died. The tap is chiefly mentioned in the example from the 3rd Databook above due to the subject concerning Itachi's final moments, and the emotional impact it served to induce as the readers were being lead to believe that he was trying to pluck Sasuke's eyes out.

This doesn't change the fact that the blood going into Sasuke's left eye was *clearly pronounced*in the panels, and chapter that immediately followedas a *direct result* of this act. Nor does it serve to ease the massive weight it carries as contextual evidence of Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu being the sole ocular power granted to Sasuke.



> _In that one scene alot of themes(from Brothers, Bonds, Will of Fire, The Uchiha Eyes, Older & Younger Generations) were touched upon there. Or that could just be me "Looking To Close, And Should Take A Step Back."  takes off shades _


Stop taste testing your aunt's hair care products.

But seriously, I realize you're trying to be humorous, but the image of Itachi weeping bears no similarity to any of the panels featured on that page whatsoever. And if the author intended to make such a comparison, we would have been beaten over the head with it.

I suspect that you recognize just how convoluted this proposition of unspoken analogies and themes all sounds, compared to the rather simple sequence of events I've already laid out to you.



> _My opinion an understand of the part is that Danzou is not comparing the sports car(genjutsu in question) but the people driving the sports car._



*Spoiler*: _And your understanding of it is WRONG_ 





adamkun said:


> The implied subject of this sentence is the "genjutsu" of the previous sentence.  So that gives us (literally and unnaturally):
> (Your genjutsu) and Itachi's "tsukiyomi" that freely manipulates genjutsu time are the heaven and earth different.
> 
> A more natural translation:
> ...





Sho said:


> What he first says is that he'll praise Sasuke for catching him in a genjutsu.
> 
> Then he states that it has no comparison to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
> 
> ...








> _Danzou said "*But that's nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, which could control the time of the illusion*". I don't like this translation it doesn't make any sense. How can the illusion control it's own time?_


Tsukuyomi *itself* possesses the power to alter the recipient's sense of time, just as Kotoamatsukami has the inherent ability to rewrite the recipient's experiences. They are the traits that *define* these two techniques, *not* expressions of their users' innate skill that can be _"optionally"_ applied to them.

Thus, if there are to be any distinctions made between the skill of two Mangekyou Sharingan users that happen to wield these techniques, it would have to be between how *much* time can be compressed into a mere second in Tsukuyomi's case, or how *thoroughly* Kotoamatsukami does it's brainwashing.



> _As I said before I like the other translation. "*But that's nothing compared to Itachi's Tsukiyomi, WHO can control the time and length of the illusion are as different as heaven and earth.*"_


As pointed out in adamkun's breakdown(which Hexa ), the subject marker is Sasuke's Genjutsu, and what Danzou goes on to compare the Genjutsu *to* is the Tsukuyomi that Itachi *has*not Itachi himself.

You may dislike it, but the former example is how it's supposed to be read.



> _Wow I re-read those chapters over this is the sequence of events_


Stay with me, Good Boy Turned Bad.

You tried to use Zetsu's lack of commentary as a means of proving thatfrom *his* perspectivethere was nothing TO comment on, until Sasuke's knees hit the floor after dispelling what you claimed to be Itachi's _"second"_ Tsukuyomi. But as I explained to you, he *did* have plenty to comment on from the exchange of shuriken and Ninjutsu, yet *didn't*. We were shown no reaction from him until he noticed the Uchiha siblings exchange come to a sudden halt due to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.

So, *AGAIN:* What makes you think that all of the illusionary imagery used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke transpired in an instant?



> _I don't understand this statement  "Danzou didn't say Itachi's Tsukuyomi could "freely alter the victim's sense of time *for much longer*"_


Hence, the point of that statement, and explaining the purpose of the Genjutsu Sasuke cast upon Danzouwhich you completely missed. It's not that Sasuke's Genjutsu hasn't altered the victim's sense of time for *as long* as Itachi's Tsukuyomi, it hasn't altered the victim's sense of time *at all*. There were no minuscule number of seconds being compressed to a single instance, as that would *defy* what actually transpired.


*Spoiler*: _And instead of addressing THAT, you give me THIS_ 





> _I understand the PURPOSE_


... 



> _but your overlooking the REASON. Why would he test Tsukiyomi(or any genjutsu) in such a way. Because he is not a Genjutsu user._


While I have never tried to deny Itachi's superiority in this field, Sasuke hasn't been made out to be any kind of slouch when it comes to Genjutsu either. It went from one of his weakest abilities, to one of his strongest throughout the course of his two and a half years of training with Orochimaru. 


*Spoiler*: _And while he clearly prefers Ninjutsu, he's had much success with Genjutsu_ 




Suppressing the Kyuubi's chakra.
Subjugating a creature as great as Manda, which was attributed as a glimpse of the Sharingan's fearsome, latent potential to control even the Bijuu.
Instantly taking C out of the fight at the Kage Summit, despite the Kumo Nin showing clear talent in the field; this earned Sasuke praise of uncommon prodigious aptitude.



So, while *you* assume that Sasuke would feel it necessary to test his Genjutsu on Danzou in that manner because of his preferences, and supposed lack of skill... *I* would say the fact that he was up against a guy with nearly a dozen Sharingan(those magic, Genjutsu-dispellin' eyeballs), and a mysterious, yet obviously correlated ability that allowed him to come through all of Sasuke's prior attacks as if they never happened at all, would be a much more logical, and *apparent* reason for doing so.


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

> _But we haven't seen Sasuke's MS abilites_



From his left Mangekyou Sharingan, he casts the apex of Katon Ninjutsu: *Amaterasu*?which can alternatively be classified as _"Enton"._
His right Mangekyou Sharingan wields an ability that allows him to exert greater control over that Enton, an ocular power named after the Shinto God of Fire: *Kagutsuchi*. It has also been used almost exclusively to cast Genjutsu?the first one used on Danzou being the lone exception.
With these two techniques, his fully materialized *Susanoo* is equipped with a bow, and arrows(which Amaterasu Omikami armed herself[] and lesser deities[2] with)?the latter originating from an orb of Enton held by it's second right hand.



> _ I guess my analogy to a tripwire trap was not sufficient._


It was, and I acknowledged that solitary likeness at the offset of my reply. What I took issue with was your claim of Shisui's actual Mangekyou Sharingan being _"sealed"_ as Itachi's intangible ocular power was, with the former being used as an example of what you believe to be the latter's permanency.

But it is precisely because of those apparent differences that the example of Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan cannot be used as proof of Itachi's ocular power being indefinitely imbued within Sasuke's left eye once the seal was broken.


*Spoiler*: _CONJECTURE RELEASE - STRAW GRASP NO JUTSU_ 





> _I have an alternate idea on his S/T warping & Intangiblity. The S/t warping & Madara's pocket dimesion are the same thing & in his right eye, while his Intangiblity is in is left eye. Tobi doesn't show his left eye while he does it because it's not nessecary, unlike the majority of MS techniques, which have to be shown to focus on the target. The Intangiblity focuses on the USER, so it doesn't matter if the eye is shown or not as the target is the one casting it._


While it's an interesting thought, it's just supposition; Tobi's intangibility has already been linked to the Jikuukan Ninjutsu cast from his right Sharingan.

If his ability to make himself intangible originated from his left Sharingan, you'd have to explain how he was able to retain the ability after replacing it with one of the Rinnegan. And if you believe he could still make use of it even with the different Doujutsu, you'd then have to explain why he didn't simply pop the Rinnegan in *both* of his eye sockets?because the commonly accepted reason for Tobi bothering to keep his right Sharingan has been attributed to him retaining his Jikuukan Ninjutsu.



> _The only time they have been shown PHYSICALLY together in the flashback when "Tobi" had long hair, plus his statement Madara is alive and well with as are his eyes. Take a look at Edo Madara his eyes are with him, he died with them intact, also turn hm side ways an slap a mask on him, & I'll bet that profile will match that of Tobi's in the woods that day._


Upon closer inspection, you'll notice that his hair wasn't nearly as long, or full as Madara's; neither then, or when he first introduced himself to Kisame as Madara. I suspect the lengthy hair was just a red herring.



> _You know, I been thinking about this, too. And Kabuto's detailed explaination of Edo Tensai came to mind. 1) You need a sacrifice. 2) You need dna of the one you want to summon. 3) The SOUL of the one you want to summon has to be in the pure world. Kabuto never said the person had to be dead, thou..._


​


> _ WHAT? stop lookining at me like that._


  ​


> _Yeah it's a stretch_


​


> _the manga suggest that this is the data he used make his trap with._


The manga never suggests that Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu was triggered by anything quite as intimate as the trigger for Itachi's crow was, which was the very *power* that emanates from his Mangekyou Sharingan. Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu's release trigger was merely the sight of the Sharingan belonging to this man that Itachi thought to be Madara. Nothing more, nothing less.

You're taking a lot of leaps in your attempt to correlate their particulars, with the only link being that they are rigged, Uchiha Kekkei Genkai related subjects. The entire premise is on very shakey foundation.





> _I brought up this very point a while ago_


Yes, and you brought it up for a completely different reason, which was just addressed above.

The reason I brought the example back on you was to make it clear to you that Sasuke was not wielding *Itachi's* ocular powers. That the techniques he was casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan were his alone, and not the result of anything Itachi had given him.



> _I said Itachi gave Sasuke the power of his eyes, then Sasuke unlocked his own MS shortly after. I asked when he revealed his MS design by the water(he unlocked the MS in the cave), why did his eyes not instantly become EMS at that point?_


Because the douryoku Itachi sealed into Sasuke that day was *superficial*?neither permanent, nor representing the full extent of his repertoire of Mangekyou Sharingan techniques. All it was meant for was the trap we saw unleashed upon Tobi.



> _Then I asked why did Sasuke ask Tobi for Itachi's powerless eyes if he already had everything he needed to make EMS without them?_


Because he *didn't* have everything he needed; the douryoku of Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan was his alone.



> _I don't recall getting any answer to either of these questions._


I'm sure you've already understood from the responses to your last two questions, but you *did* get them. Those answers spurred all of these sub-topics we're discussing now?I'm actually thinking about movin' and/or copyin' even *more* posts to another thread... 


*Spoiler*: _To recap_ 




You disagreed with my explanation of the exchange, as you were under the impression that Sasuke had already inherited Itachi's douryoku.
This lead to the clarification on the matter of hisshou's translation, _"*ALL* of his Doujutsu"._
Which in turn lead to the discussion of all the contextual evidence implicating Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu as the lone douryoku passed on to Sasuke.
And the matter of whether or not Sasuke possessed Tsukuyomi.
Which then lead to the issue of Itachi's supposed exclusivity to Tsukuyomi, and Amaterasu.
And whether or not Itachi's douryoku?whatever the extent of it?was permanently imbued within Sasuke.









> _Seventy years that's still a bit to long. I'm pretty certain it was between late 40s or early 50s(like in between 47-53 range) give or take a couple years. How can I be so sure? Visual clues, specifically Hashirama, Tobimaru, & Madara._


_"The story begins *over 80 years ago*..."_

I undershot it too...


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2012)

This is fucking stupid.

We are told that EMS results from a transplant.

Since when the hell does transplanting body parts entail a "fusion" of any kind? Where is such a thing even suggested in the manga? 

The answers are "never" and "nowhere", respectively. This argument is based on one of the most *unnecessary* misconceptions I've ever seen.


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## butcher50 (Jan 20, 2012)

Nikushimi said:


> This is fucking stupid.
> 
> We are told that EMS results from a transplant.
> 
> ...



then you must accept that the whole EMS-granting surgery can only be plausibly accomplished by a third party to do the whole connecting.

(extract your MS rusting eyes and then transplant your sibling's MS eyes back to your empty sockets, re-connecting with the optic veins/nerve endings, how is one person alone supposed to do this whole thing exactly ?)


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

butcher50 said:


> then you must accept that the whole EMS-granting surgery can only be plausibly accomplished by a third party to do the whole connecting.


... Has anyone who's pushed for the exchange ever had trouble accepting this? I don't recall this being an issue.


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 20, 2012)

Interesting I think they are actually a swap because I got this from the viz translation thread of this page. When Sasuke talks about feeling Itachi's power.

His head even looks like he "dodged" to the side.

*They actually fit quite nicely... I already feel Itachi's occular power. I have already become stronger.*

Scan.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Which would suggest that they were swapped rather then a fusion, because. 

I don't see why Sasuke would need to comment on how they fit unless it was a transplant.


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## BlinkST (Jan 20, 2012)

@Sai
I doubt the transplant is that complicated. I mean, Rin transplanted Obito's eye into Kakashi's socket with no issues. 

Unless.. Oh no.. Kishi 

@Breed
All translations imply it's a swap.


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## BlinkST (Jan 20, 2012)

There's limited info on that thing, so you'll always run into the same information about it. I hope Kishimoto explores it, because it otherwise just seems to be meaningless genjutsu. I was seriously hyped up about the ems until Kishimoto gave Madara the Rinnegan. Bunk theories now.


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> I was seriously hyped up about the ems until Kishimoto gave Madara the Rinnegan. Bunk theories now.


...

There's still Sasuke!


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## G Felon (Jan 20, 2012)

54.29% of the people here cannot read a simple manga


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## navy (Jan 20, 2012)

Yeah, Kishi has offered no logical explanation why they cant swap eyes.


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

navy said:


> Yeah, Kishi has offered no logical explanation why they cant swap eyes.


Er... Kishimoto has never implied that the Uchiha have *not* attempted to create their own Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by swapping eyes, only that due to the necessity of an immediate family member's Mangekyou Sharingan, simply exchanging their Mangekyou Sharingan with any pair of eyes they could get their hands on wouldn't equate to gaining this newfound power. Hence, why nobody was able to repeat Madara's success until now.

There has been a lot of blood shed over attempts to make the Mangekyou Sharingan's power permanent. But as I laid out to Faustus earlier in the thread, the taboo that surrounds the Mangekyou Sharingan, along with the desperation that would come from these treacherous individuals' desire to retain their _"light"_ can infer why things had gotten so nasty.


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## navy (Jan 20, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Er... Kishimoto has never implied that the Uchiha have *not* attempted to create their own Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by swapping eyes, only that due to the necessity of an immediate family member's Mangekyou Sharingan, simply exchanging their Mangekyou Sharingan with any pair of eyes they could get their hands on wouldn't equate to gaining this newfound power. Hence, why nobody was able to repeat Madara's success until now.
> 
> There has been a lot of blood shed over attempts to make the Mangekyou Sharingan's power permanent. But as I laid out to Faustus earlier in the thread, the taboo that surrounds the Mangekyou Sharingan, along with the desperation that would come from these treacherous individuals' desire to retain their _"light"_ can infer why things had gotten so nasty.



I dont recall anyone ever transplanting and failing...
Pages?


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

Madara was said to be the only one throughout the clan's history to uncover the Sharingan's _"final secret"_, which turned out to be everlasting _"light"_ through the creation of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.


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## navy (Jan 20, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Madara was said to be the only one throughout the clan's history to uncover the Sharingan's _"final secret"_, which turned out to be everlasting _"light"_ through the creation of the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan.



I dont believe it was because he was different, maybe he's the only one to obtain his brothers _light._


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

Maybe I'm just dull-witted, but I'm honestly not seeing much room for any other interpretation. Enlighten me.


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## navy (Jan 20, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Maybe I'm just dull-witted, but I'm honestly not seeing much room for any other interpretation. Enlighten me.



Not sure what you mean. 

I'm saying only Madara and Sasuke have implanted their brothers MS...


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## Nikushimi (Jan 20, 2012)

butcher50 said:


> then you must accept that the whole EMS-granting surgery can only be plausibly accomplished by a third party to do the whole connecting.
> 
> (extract your MS rusting eyes and then transplant your sibling's MS eyes back to your empty sockets, re-connecting with the optic veins/nerve endings, how is one person alone supposed to do this whole thing exactly ?)



I thought it was a given that a third party was required?

Unless someone is just GAR enough to perform eye surgery on themselves while awake and without an anesthetic. But Kishi isn't ballsy enough to put that in his manga, so yeah, a third party is definitely required.


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## SaiST (Jan 20, 2012)

navy said:


> Not sure what you mean.
> 
> I'm saying only Madara and Sasuke have implanted their brothers MS...


Which is true. I thought you were questioning all of the failed attempts to create the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan by exchanging eyes.

... In which case, looking back, I only provided part of what I should have. So, I *am* dull witted right now. 

_"...However, such an exchange could only ever take place between members of the same clan. // Besides which, it was not as if just anyone could obtain new power in this way. // That much is clear from history, from the many sacrifices that followed..."-*cnet*_

_"However, this trade can only be carried out among family members. (note: you could read it as "among clan members" as well, but I believe it refers to "family"; ndt) Besides, it does not mean that *anyone* can obtain a new power with this method. This fact has been proved true by the numerous victims that followed..."-*tora-chan*_

Apologies!


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## BlinkST (Jan 20, 2012)

navy said:


> Not sure what you mean.
> 
> I'm saying only Madara and Sasuke have implanted their brothers MS...


Kind of what he was trying to say in the first place. The transplant's success depends on the blood ties of the two people making the trade. Many tried and failed, which led to a decline in the clan's population.


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## SaiST (Jan 21, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> Many tried and failed, which led to a decline in the clan's population.


Actually forgot this piece of information. The Uchiha's desire for perfect eyes would explain their decline(in such apparently peaceful times, no less) quite well.

Would also suggest that there were a lot more Mangekyou Sharingan users since Madara's time than a lot of people here seem to think... But still, _"few"_ in the grand scheme of things.


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## αce (Jan 21, 2012)

At first I thought it was simply swapping eyes. But at this point I'm almost certain it's the fusion of two MS's.

The first clue was the "monster" we saw behind Madara and Itachi. Madara's had 4 eyes after taking his brothers and Itachi's only had 2.
There's also the fact that Madara's Susano-o has 2 heads and 4 arms, and Sasuke's new Susano-o has 4 arms. It probably has 2 heads also.


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## BlinkST (Jan 21, 2012)

Tsukuyomi
Amaterasu
Susanoo
Kamui
Kagutsuchi
Mugen Tskuyomi
Kotoamatsukami

Yay more jutsu to look forward to.


@ Ace
Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have 4 arms.


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## SaiST (Jan 21, 2012)

♠Ace♠ said:


> At first I thought it was simply swapping eyes. But at this point I'm almost certain it's the fusion of two MS's.
> 
> The first clue was the "monster" we saw behind Madara and Itachi. Madara's had 4 eyes after taking his brothers and Itachi's only had 2.
> There's also the fact that Madara's Susano-o has 2 heads and 4 arms, and Sasuke's new Susano-o has 4 arms. It probably has 2 heads also.


You too, Ace?! 


*Spoiler*: _DON'T GO INTO THE LIGHT_ 





SaiST said:


> Just as the power of Shisui's chakra was present in his eyes after being transplanted to both Danzou and Itachi's crow, the power of Itachi's chakra is still there now that they're in Sasuke's eye sockets. Hence, why Sasuke could sense Itachi's douryoku flowing through him–increasing his power–after the transplant.
> 
> But Sasuke has already awakened to the power of the Mangekyou Sharingan. As a Mangekyou Sharingan user, his chakra–the root of his own douryoku–is now acclimating with Itachi's Mangekyou Sharingan. This is how the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan grants greater power. This is why the Tomoe Seals of both users' Mangekyou Sharingan combine, even though they are still Itachi's eyes. This explains the appearance of the creature with two sets of Sharingan depicted in Chapter 386 behind Madara. This is why the recovery is taking so much longer than other eye transplants we've witnessed thus far. And this is why this _"exchange"_ of Mangekyou Sharingan, to create an Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan, can only be done between immediate family due to their compatibility.





SaiST said:


> But, due to the *results* of this exchange:
> The amalgamation of the donor and receiver's Tomoe Seals.
> The Housoushi youkai(thanks, Blinx)—acting as something of a visual metaphor of the receiver's power—depicted with one and two sets of Sharingan, before and after the exchange.
> The fact that—prior to Sasuke—Madara has been the only one to successfully perfect his Doujutsu, despite all of the attempts that have spanned across nearly a century
> ... A lot of people are dismissing the prior established information, and choosing to cling to this fabricated concept of eyeballs physically fusing with each other to explain it... Which, as I've said numerous times already, has never been so much as hinted at.








Blinx-182 said:


> @ Ace
> Sasuke's Susanoo doesn't have 4 arms.


Could be a result of further mastery of both ocular powers.

[EDIT] - Just want to say, before I'm accused of doing exactly what I've been warning others of in this thread, that Madara's Susanoo really could just be *unique* like that. I just think it's pretty convenient that, as a guy wielding the ocular power of two Mangekyou Sharingan users, happens to end up with what appears to be two different Susanoo conjoined into one.


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## T-Bag (Jan 21, 2012)

they fuse, thats why the eyes are a combination. its simply called an exchange because your exchanging your old eyes for a brand new pair


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## SaiST (Jan 21, 2012)

The Tomoe Seals combine because the donor's Mangekyou Sharingan acclimates with the ocular powers of the receiver's.

It was said that *Izuna's* eyes gained eternal light, not Izuna and Madara's. It's called an exchange because that's exactly what it is; nobody's making any implications of the eyes being smashed together.

Man, we're going full circle here.


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## T-Bag (Jan 21, 2012)

yeah my bad didnt read any convo i just straight up said my opinion. still not gona change my mind though. and by izuna's eyes gaining a new light.. i dont think its supposed to be taken literal. i think it simply means that his eyes found a new host. they did since his eyes are now combined with madara's. reason why madara's eyes werent mentioned was because thats already a given


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## SaiST (Jan 21, 2012)

It would only be a _"given"_ if we saw any other examples, or at least implications of eyes being physically conjoined together.

The Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan's results can be explained away perfectly fine based on the prior examples of eye transplants.


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## αce (Jan 21, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:


> Tsukuyomi
> Amaterasu
> Susanoo
> Kamui
> ...




*Spoiler*: __ 








It's got two on one side.
I only assumed it was 4.


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## BlinkST (Jan 21, 2012)

All Susanoo have that extra forearm thing going on.


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## Klue (Jan 22, 2012)

After reading through SaiST and Blinx-182's posts, I can't believe I ever supported the fusion idea. 

I still hope it's right.


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## SaiST (Jan 22, 2012)

Feels good, man...

Feels *real* good...

Reactions: Like 1


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## BlinkST (Jan 22, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Actually forgot this piece of information. The Uchiha's desire for perfect eyes would explain their decline(in such apparently peaceful times, no less) quite well.
> 
> Would also suggest that there were a lot more Mangekyou Sharingan users since Madara's time than a lot of people here seem to think... But still, _"few"_ in the grand scheme of things.


Yes, their desire for perfect eyes led to a decline. 

It's a given that they were trying to get the Mangekyo. But given how Itachi *might have been speaking about the Rinnegan, was what they were seeking indeed.. The Rinnegan? 


That's right, I went there 

I seriously have a hard time seeing how Sasuke will top Madara. Either Itachi didn't know shit or he was talking about the Rinnegan.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 22, 2012)

Klue said:


> After reading through SaiST and Blinx-182's posts, I can't believe I ever supported the fusion idea.
> 
> I still hope it's right.


I still do...haven't read all of them though 

Still my believes and hopes go towards a fusion.No particiular reason besides being right


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## shintebukuro (Jan 22, 2012)

Blinx-182 said:
			
		

> I seriously have a hard time seeing how Sasuke will top Madara. Either Itachi didn't know shit or he was talking about the Rinnegan.



Don't you dare doubt the power of hatred and Juubi eye.


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## Mister (Jan 22, 2012)

Transplant, Tobi did ask Sasuke if he wanted to _transplant_ Itachi's eyes and make them his own.
Furthermore, Sasuke wouldn't likely need bandages if it was a fusion; if an operation took place, the bandages make sense. Especially when you consider Sasuke was on the table that Tobi uses for surgical purposes (c.f. Tobi's attempt to extract Shisui's eye from Danzo).



Hexa said:


> It could be that it's just additionally rare for a ninja to be able to awaken the EMS by implanting his brother's eyes. Perhaps if Izuna implanted Madara's eyes he would simply remain blind as he doesn't have the potential to awaken the EMS.



I've gotto agree here. It isn't likely a coincidence that the two Uchiha with extraordinarily powerful chakra, by the Uchiha's standards, are the only ones who had the potential to awaken the EMS. 
(Itachi did mention that a lot of people did fail to gain the EMS this way.)


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## silenceofthelambs (Jan 22, 2012)

*What is this rubbish? Where did this "fusion" notion even originate? It's completely unsupported by the manga.

It is a transplant. A swap. An exchange. It couldn't be anything but that...how do two eyeballs even "fuse," anyway? And why would the manga say the donor's eyes received eternal light, and not the recipient's? 

Even for a manga like this, the idea of an "eyeball fusion" borders on sheer absurdity.*


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

^But sealing a magic red-eye into a crow is ok or what? 

But nontheless, SaiST and Blinx-182 did a great job in pointing out that it really tends to be an exchange of eyes.+reps for both

So assuming Madara was mostly or completely blind, there is no question that there was a third person who did that exchange right?No one of the 2 brothers was capable of doing it.Madara was blind, and Izuna couldn't possibly transplant his own eyes into Madara.Unfortunately, that third person was never mentioned(Tobi?  All that medical knowledge...).

But how is it possible that no one so far with this information asked himself how Madara could've forcefully taken his brothers eyes (who btw was said to be equally strong) if there was a third person needed to transplant them?

I mean there had to be a person who supported Madara.Or Izuna did give Madara his eyes on his own free will.So where comes the rumor from Madara took them by force if there was a clan member involved?

Correct me if I'm missing or forgot something.But there had to be some unknown circumstances for it to make sense...


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## takL (Jan 23, 2012)

Transplantation doesnt necessarily mean removing what is originally there.
Kish also says 'exchange of eyes' but its not like izuna got madaras eyes instead or itachi got sasukes.


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## Mister (Jan 23, 2012)

takL said:


> Transplantation doesnt necessarily mean removing what is originally there.
> Kish also says 'exchange of eyes' but its not like izuna got madaras eyes instead or itachi got sasukes.



Though if we pair this with other sources of information {databook III listing a 'donor'; Sasuke being on a surgical table}, wouldn't transplantation be the overall conclusion?


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## Hasan (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't think Madara was expecting to gain Eien no Mangekyo or knew such a thing even existed. He took Izuna's eyes in hopes to "see" again. Logically, this dictates that he exchanged the eyes.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 23, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> So assuming Madara was mostly or completely blind, there is no question that there was a third person who did that exchange right? No one of the 2 brothers was capable of doing it. Madara was blind, and Izuna couldn't possibly transplant his own eyes into Madara.


Why would sight be necessary for the transplant? Medic-nin have performed _Shōsen Jutsu_ ('Mystical Palm Technique') and other healing jutsu without seeing some or all of the injury.
It probably wouldn't be the most graceful of procedures, but it's still possible.


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## Klue (Jan 23, 2012)

Hasan said:


> I don't think Madara was expecting to gain Eien no Mangekyo or knew such a thing even existed. He took Izuna's eyes in hopes to "see" again. Logically, this dictates that he exchanged the eyes.



Isn't it likely that the tablet left to the Uchiha Clan has that information recorded there? _Pretty sure_ it lays out the requirements for the Mangekyou Sharingan and it _definitely_ speaks of the methods needed to gain the Rinnegan.

Wouldn't be surprised if the EMS is recorded there too.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

Dragonus Nesha said:


> Why would sight be necessary for the transplant? Medic-nin have performed _Shōsen Jutsu_ ('Mystical Palm Technique') and other healing jutsu without seeing some or all of the injury.
> It probably wouldn't be the most graceful of procedures, but it's still possible.


That question in some way, answers itself.How can you do a transplant while you're blind?


Those 2 things are not comparable at all.I quote:

*Spoiler*: __ 





> This medical ninjutsu allows the user to speed up the body's natural healing process by sending chakra from their hands into a wound or afflicted body part. This allows the user to heal a patient without the need for medical equipment or surgery, making it highly useful on the battlefield. It can be used to treat both external and internal injuries.





I really really doubt that could be helpful for an eye transplant.Maybe afterwards to speed up the healing process of the wounds an eye exchange undoubtly causes.

But just for the godlike irony Kishi should do it.A blind eye transplant holy crap...


Klue said:


> Isn't it likely that the tablet left to the Uchiha Clan has that information recorded there? _Pretty sure_ it lays out the requirements for the Mangekyou Sharingan and it _definitely_ speaks of the methods needed to gain the Rinnegan.
> 
> Wouldn't be surprised if the EMS is recorded there too.


Madara asked Kabuto something like: "You know about the secrets of my body without being able to read the tablet?"

So you're definitely right there are secrets of the Uchihas powers mentioned.I just wonder to what extend 

Tobi said that it becomes more and more visible depending on what KKG you posses.

Sharingan->Mangekyou Sharingan->Rinnegan.So maybe it's explained how to achieve the next stage.You can read with the Sharingan how to achieve the MS.And you can read with the MS, how to make it's light eternal.And after that, you maybe can read how to achieve an even higher stage of eye powers, the Rinnegan.


----------



## King Scoop (Jan 23, 2012)

It's funny how one person makes something up, and half the forum runs with it. I mean it was an interesting theory, but never made a whole lot of sense. Given that there was never any mention of it in the manga whatsoever. And the fact numerous people having been swapping eyes, throughout the story.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

^You give me an idea now.IIRC, when Rin "transplanted" Kakashi Obitos Sharingan, there was no exchange noticed.Is it possible that they simply transplant the red pupil and not the whole eye-ball?


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## SaiST (Jan 23, 2012)

Really, Shikamaru Nara?

*Really?*



takL said:


> Transplantation doesnt necessarily mean removing what is originally there.
> Kish also says 'exchange of eyes' but its not like izuna got madaras eyes instead or itachi got sasukes.


We are considering the term within the context of the recipient exchanging his eyes for another pair, as we've seen numerous examples of throughout the manga—not the recipient exchanging his eyes with the donor's, *and* vice versa.


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## King Scoop (Jan 23, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> ^You give me an idea now.IIRC, when Rin "transplanted" Kakashi Obitos Sharingan, there was no exchange noticed.Is it possible that they simply transplant the red pupil and not the whole eye-ball?



No, I'm sure Kakashi's eye was damaged too much for that. Besides it seems like a lot of work for little gain. And if your cut is off by just a little the eye is useless. It's much easier to just swap them out.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Really, Shikamaru Nara?
> 
> *Really?*


Yes, Y?


King Scoop said:


> No, I'm sure Kakashi's eye was damaged too much for that. Besides it seems like a lot of work for little gain. And if your cut is off by just a little the eye is useless. It's much easier to just swap them out.


Yeah Maybe 

EDIT: Was just looking for the chapter Kakashi got Obitos Sharingan.And it's called "implant" there.Implantation and transplantation are the exact opposite of each other.So the translation should not be an issue.


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## SaiST (Jan 23, 2012)

Five bucks says the term for _"exchange"_ is in the original text.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

*Taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaklllllllllllll!!!!* 

Did you already ask a translater or you really wanna bet ? 

BTW: Don't hate me for coming up with this stuff SaiST hate the game .I'm just trying to understand wth Kishi is thinking with all that eyeballs switching like ****.


----------



## SaiST (Jan 23, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> Did you already ask a translater or you really wanna bet ?


I wonder~...


----------



## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

Makes sense to me


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## Golden Circle (Jan 23, 2012)

It's both actually.

But never mind me, I'm sure someone is going to super-picky over this.



SaiST said:


> I wonder~...


Find a raw and use . You don't have to be a translator to work out what someone is saying.


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## SaiST (Jan 23, 2012)

Golden Circle said:


> It's both actually.
> 
> But never mind me, I'm sure someone is going to super-picky over this.






> _Find a raw and use . You don't have to be a translator to work out what someone is saying._


Already aware of it, and wouldn't even need it. I just don't have the raw scans of that tankobon.


----------



## MS81 (Jan 23, 2012)

I just want to see sasuke tear some ish up...


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 23, 2012)

SaiST said:


> Already aware of it, and wouldn't even need it. I just don't have the raw scans of that tankobon.


Maybe we don't even need them.I mean, is the japanese language that broken, that a translator like takl,yagami or whoever translated that chapter, couldn't possibly say that theres no way to translate "implant" like "transplant" or "exchange,trade" or whatever?

Really just what is the japanese language...but tbh, the more I talk about it, and think of the stupidest possibilitys, the less I care about and just want to enjoy the Manga again without bother discussing it to this extend...but I can't help myself


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 24, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> How can you do a transplant while you're blind?



Remove own eye
Remove donor's eye
Insert donor's eye into own's empty eye socket
Apply medical ninjutsu
Repeat Steps 1-3 until desired results
Medical ninjutsu generally doesn't require the user to be able to see the actual injury, so sight isn't really required. The senses of proprioception and touch can handle it.
I'm still not sure why you seem to dismiss the possibility offhand.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 24, 2012)

I never disagreed that Medical Ninjutsu can be used without sight, which as I said, should be helpful to heal the wounds and speed up the process as whole but is it really enough to transplant an eye?Is there no further knowledge neccessary than the Jutsu Ino used to do first treatment to Kakashi?I don't know...

Anyways I dare to say that an eye transplant should be a bit more complex than just plug and play and requires a skilled medic-nin.Although Kakashis scenario says otherwhise 

And for that scenario to work, it would be neccessary for Madara to be a medic-nin aswell, like he hasn't enough at his disposal already.

Madara stealing Izunas eyes and trasnplant them by himself aswell is just a scenario I wouldn't really want because I think Kishi can do better than this.The thought of that scenario just creates an expression like


----------



## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 24, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> And for that scenario to work, it would be neccessary for Madara to be a medic-nin aswell, like he hasn't enough at his disposal already.


Who knows, he may have watched countless uses of medical ninjutsu; he was alive during warring periods. And in his desperation from going blind, he may have studied eyes and learned the techniques; the eye transplant was a last resort.
As well, medical ninjutsu may be Inton ('Yin Release'), the realm in which the Uchiha are supposed to dominate.


----------



## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 24, 2012)

Why do you think medical ninjutsu is connected to the Yin release?It just uses the concentrated chakra of the medic-nin to speed up the natural healing process of the body.

So if I had to categorize it at an elemental stage, I'd actually say it's connected with the Yang release.


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## Dragonus Nesha (Jan 24, 2012)

Shikamaru Nara said:


> Why do you think medical ninjutsu is connected to the Yin release?It just uses the concentrated chakra of the medic-nin to speed up the natural healing process of the body.
> 
> So if I had to categorize it at an elemental stage, I'd actually say it's connected with the Yang release.


Largely because of Tsunade's _Infūin: Kai_ ('Yin Seal: Release') and Kabuto's _In'yu Shōmetsu_ ('Yin Healing Wound Destruction'). As well as its shared requirements with genjutsu, which has been labeled as Inton: high intelligence, precise chakra control.


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## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 24, 2012)

I actually interpreted that as the seal being Yin based which imo, would definitely make sense, but not that the chakra that is healing the wounds has an elemental affinity.


----------



## Fatback (Jan 25, 2012)

I'm not really getting how it's a combination of two eyes.. How does one go about merging two sets of eyes in to one. I also assumed it was an exchange... You cant stuff 4 eyes in to 2 sockets and get 2 eyes... Maybe I'm being to realistic it is a manga after all. I still subscribe to the exchange theory though.



Dragonus Nesha said:


> Remove own eye
> Remove donor's eye
> Insert donor's eye into own's empty eye socket
> Apply medical ninjutsu
> ...



So your a doctor now? Seems rather presumptuous on your part. You assume he sat there and pulled out his own eyeballs? Hahaha.. That makes no sense.. At all.. Not even a little.. none


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## SaiST (Jan 25, 2012)

Fatback said:


> I'm not really getting how it's a combination of two eyes.. How does one go about merging two sets of eyes in to one.


Unspoken sealing techniques, apparently.



> _So your a doctor now?_


He's talkin' about magical medical procedures in a fictional story...


----------



## takL (Jan 25, 2012)

i aint sure what the convo is about but
in kakashis case,
obito says "Lin... with your... medical ninjutsu...transplant my sharingan..., _the eye axis and all_...to Kakashi's left eye...."

when i read it i didnt know wtf the eye axis is and thought of something connecting your eye to the body but its not.


----------



## SaiST (Jan 25, 2012)

My five bucks! *Nuuuuuu!!*

Thanks, takL!


----------



## Shikamaru Nara (Jan 25, 2012)

Not bad SaiST^^

Need to learn japanese damn it...implant and transplant is the exact opposite, I was tricked by a mistranslation again...


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## SaiST (Jan 25, 2012)

Well, still... It wasn't _"exchange"_...



Blinx-182 said:


> Yes, their desire for perfect eyes led to a decline.
> 
> It's a given that they were trying to get the Mangekyo. But given how Itachi *might have been speaking about the Rinnegan, was what they were seeking indeed.. The Rinnegan?
> 
> ...


 How'd I miss this?

I refuse to even entertain you, Blinx!



> _I seriously have a hard time seeing how Sasuke will top Madara._


'cause he won't? :B



> _Either Itachi didn't know shit or he was talking about the Rinnegan. _


He just didn't know _everything._


----------



## takL (Jan 26, 2012)

i think i better add that Itachis word translated to exchange was yari-tori(=give and take, literally) 
"however, this exhange of the pupils(=hitomi, can mean  'the eyes' tho) can be done only among the clanfolks."


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 28, 2012)

> SaiST
> You know that frustrating feeling that starts bubblin' up, as you watch somebody trying to parallel park in a spot with only a few inches to spare? Forcing their way in, one centimeter at a time?drive, reverse, drive, reverse...
> 
> _* SaiST sighs._



 OOH, did you see the one with the lady that was trying to park in a space for 25 mins, than a guy took the keys from her an parked in the spot in under a 1 min.
HILAROUS.



> *Spoiler*: _Anyways?Good Boy Turned Bad_
> 
> 
> 
> You'll notice that some blocks of text are a bit out of the order you originally had them in, as I wanted to keep the subjects consistent, with an easier flow to follow. But, I am a mere mortal, and mistakes can be made. So, if you find that any of the context present in your arguments are being tarnished at *all* from this, let it be known so that I may rectify it.



 I wouldn't say that they are being tarnished but alot of it is being left out an unanswered, I'm not saying to add it in your post but at least mention them. 



> Well, I guess I'm trying to be sneaky with all of my quotes. Because, in case you haven't noticed, they were ALL in small text.
> 
> But if you find it difficult to read, I'll stop using it in my replies to you.



 Really? I hadn't notice. That particular part seemed really small. 
No feel free to keep on using them.




> _*WHOOSH!*_ Point missed! You believe Itachi sealed both Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu in Sasuke's noggin'. Why is Amaterasu the *only one* mentioned in the description of this crucial moment? Why is it that Amaterasu is the only technique *ever* brought up?both in this particular example, and in the manga?when this transference of _"douryoku"_ is discussed?



 Because that was the only one relevent at that point. I can give other example of info that was not given until a later time but I am determinded to keep this post shorter than the last.



> _"... as he did *this*."_
> 
> Referring to the act in question. You've persistently brought this up throughout our discussion, as if I'm being just as obtuse about recognizing the significance behind Itachi's forehead tap as you've been about acknowledging the consequence of it. I recognize them as both important, while you're attempting to completely disregard the latter.
> 
> ...



 I'm not disreading the blood. I'm saying that blood is not important to what Itachi gave Sasuke, its just important for other reasons.



> Stop taste testing your aunt's hair care products.
> 
> But seriously, I realize you're trying to be humorous, but the image of Itachi weeping bears no similarity to any of the panels featured on that page whatsoever. And if the author intended to make such a comparison, we would have been beaten over the head with it.
> 
> I suspect that you recognize just how convoluted this proposition of unspoken analogies and themes all sounds, compared to the rather simple sequence of events I've already laid out to you.




*Spoiler*: __ 



No, I find it hard to see why you can't recognize that its all connected like cats to rats to bats to mats to floor to door to house to mouse to rats to cats. Wabbajack. Wabbajack. WABBAJACK. Man this stuff is good.

 Seriously the last line was the only part  I was trying to be humorous.




 If it was that simple their would be no need for dissussion, nothing is that simple especially when it involves key characters and key plot point which will be explained later.




> *Spoiler*: _And your understanding of it is WRONG_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



 There is a big difference between "Yours" and "Your genjutsu" with the right context. I haven't found any "Your genjutsu" in my seaches.


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 28, 2012)

> Stay with me, Good Boy Turned Bad.
> 
> You tried to use Zetsu's lack of commentary as a means of proving that?from *his* perspective?there was nothing TO comment on, until Sasuke's knees hit the floor after dispelling what you claimed to be Itachi's _"second"_ Tsukuyomi. *But as I explained to you, he did have plenty to comment on from the exchange of shuriken and Ninjutsu, yet didn't*. We were shown no reaction from him until he noticed the Uchiha siblings exchange come to a sudden halt due to Itachi's Tsukuyomi.
> 
> So, *AGAIN:* What makes you think that all of the illusionary imagery used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke transpired in an instant?



 I don't understand the bold line. 

 I thought with all the other evidence that the genjutsu was Tsukiyomi it was obvious and Zetsu's lack of commentary was verification. I don't mean to sound rude but I think you should re-read those chapters.

 There are a couple of minor details that support that their were 2 Tsukiyomi's.
1) If it was one long genjutsu how do you explain the change of clothes? When Itachi put the first one on Sasuke he still had on his cloak, when Itachi fell to his knees when Zetsu commented Sasuke had no cloak on. If it was one long genjutsu wouldn't Sasuke still have his cloak on?
2) The visual of the beginning and ending of the genjutsu. The beginning it showed a close up of his MS eye at the ending it showed the image boxing off, Zetsu made no comments. The second time it showed a close up of the eye in the beginning and at the end it showed the image boxing off. This time Zetsu did comment about the fight being over because Itachi did Tsukiyomi. Both show the same imagery.
3) Previous example of Tsukiyomi. The first time Itachi did Tsukiyomi on Kakashi, & the twice before on Sasuke they fell in exhaustion. Each time we learn it was in an instant(especially when Kakashi was hit. Asuma's comment sums it up). All those other time he pressured the targets mind with either physical or mental pain. The third time on Sasuke(the first in the fight) Itachi was not trying to stress Sasuke's mind, he even stopped it himself. 
 The reason Zetsu didn't comment is because he didn't notice the first time, he missed it as would have Asuma if Kakshi didn't fall.

 Detail 1 proves it was two seperate genjutsu. Detail 2 proves it was Tsukiyomi. Detail 3(or detail 2) proves it was in an instant.    



> Hence, the point of that statement, and explaining the purpose of the Genjutsu Sasuke cast upon Danzou?which you completely missed. It's not that Sasuke's Genjutsu hasn't altered the victim's sense of time for *as long* as Itachi's Tsukuyomi, it hasn't altered the victim's sense of time *at all*. There were no minuscule number of seconds being compressed to a single instance, as that would *defy* what actually transpired.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _And instead of addressing THAT, you give me THIS_
> ...



*Spoiler*: _And instead of addressing THAT, you give me THIS_ 





 My latter post is a more indepth explaintion of my former post. If Sasuke doesn't have the skill(or the need or desire) to make long genjutsu's he can't perform Tsukiyomi to its full potentail and make the most effective use of Tsukiyomi defining trait.

 The problem with the word "instant" is not a defintive amount of time. It could be a second to a day depending on the context of time. If the amount of time in the genjutsu is longer(or shorter) than the "instant", that shows less skill in the handling.       



> While I have never tried to deny Itachi's superiority in this field, Sasuke hasn't been made out to be any kind of slouch when it comes to Genjutsu either. It went from one of his weakest abilities, to one of his strongest throughout the course of his two and a half years of training with Orochimaru.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _And while he clearly prefers Ninjutsu, he's had much success with Genjutsu_
> ...






 I never said Sasuke had no skill in genjusu, I said Sasuke was less skilled in genjutsu than genjutsu masters(specially Itachi) because ninjutsu is his specialty. Look at the examples you gave. 
1) The Kyuubi thing was after Sasuke beat the new Team Kakashi with ninjutsu, 2) The Mamba thing was a desperatation move that was done at the last second to survive a suicide move done by a target that was lost a fight that was mostly with ninjutsu.
Sidenote: How does the Mamba thing(which was attributed as a glimpse of the Sharingan's fearsome, latent potential to control even the Bijuu) prove that more than the known fact that Madara controlled the Kyuubi(a Bijuu) and the Kyuubi thing, which happened before the Mamba thing. I always found it odd that if Madara could control the Kyuubi(the strongest Bijuu) why was it not logical to think he could control the weaker Bijuu?
3) The kumo ninja thing was in the mist of a 5 on 3 situation that was fought with ninjutsu.
 All those example plus the Danzo fight, genjutsu was used secondary to his ninjutsu of either to cause a distraction to use ninjutsu or to escape near defeat, not as a main form of combat like genjutsu specialist.


----------



## Good Boy Turned Bad (Jan 28, 2012)

> SaiST
> 
> From his left Mangekyou Sharingan, he casts the apex of Katon Ninjutsu: *Amaterasu*which can alternatively be classified as _"Enton"._
> His right Mangekyou Sharingan wields an ability that allows him to exert greater control over that Enton, an ocular power named after the Shinto God of Fire: *Kagutsuchi*. It has also been used almost exclusively to cast Genjutsuthe first one used on Danzou being the lone exception.
> With these two techniques, his fully materialized *Susanoo* is equipped with a bow, and arrows(which Amaterasu Omikami armed herself[] and lesser deities[2] with)the latter originating from an orb of Enton held by it's second right hand.



 So Sasuke has three MS techs his left eye holds Enton while his right eye holds the ability to better control his Enton which also has a genjutsu that is like a poor mans cheap version of Tsukiyomi. That sound pretty complicated for your talk of things being simple.
 Wouldn't a more simple explanation be that his right eye has Enton & the ability control it better while his left eye has a cheap version of Tukiyomi, OR a more simple explanation his righ eye has Amaterasu(Sasuke being a ninjutsu specailist) uses it with better control & usage gives it the name Enton while he is not as good with Tsukiyomi(because Sasuke is not a genjutsu specailist) so it looks like a poor man's cheap version of Tsukiyomi?  



> It was, and I acknowledged that solitary likeness at the offset of my reply. What I took issue with was your claim of Shisui's actual Mangekyou Sharingan being _"sealed"_ as Itachi's intangible ocular power was, with the former being used as an example of what you believe to be the latter's permanency.
> 
> But it is precisely because of those apparent differences that the example of Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan cannot be used as proof of Itachi's ocular power being indefinitely imbued within Sasuke's left eye once the seal was broken.



 Do you remember were that crow came from? It was one of many genjutsu crow that split from Itachi's body when he had Naruto in genjutsu that he order to go down Naruto's throat. Unless your telling me that Itachi's body is actaully crows hiding under clothes? That "crow" is not a real crow. So Itachi's  intangible power was put in something real(Sasuke's eye), while a real thing(Shisui's MS) was put in something intangible(a genjutsu crow) which was put into something real Naruto.
 The trap was just activated, the seal was not released just like the Bijuu(which are massive forms of intangible power) are not released when the host activates that power or access it. The first time that intangible power that was sealed in Sasuke's head was not his doing after that each time after was Sasuke's own doing. 



> CONJECTURE RELEASE - STRAW GRASP NO JUTSU
> While it's an interesting thought, it's just supposition; Tobi's intangibility has already been linked to the Jikuukan Ninjutsu cast from his right Sharingan.
> 
> If his ability to make himself intangible originated from his left Sharingan, you'd have to explain how he was able to retain the ability after replacing it with one of the Rinnegan. And if you believe he could still make use of it even with the different Doujutsu, you'd then have to explain why he didn't simply pop the Rinnegan in *both* of his eye socketsbecause the commonly accepted reason for Tobi bothering to keep his right Sharingan has been attributed to him retaining his Jikuukan Ninjutsu.



 Were was this said in the manga if it was said in the Databook it subject to change when new data is made availible



> Upon closer inspection, you'll notice that his hair wasn't nearly as long, or full as Madara's; neither then, or when he first introduced himself to Kisame as Madara. I suspect the lengthy hair was just a red herring.



 It may not be the same length but its the same shape and style. There are alot of hairdo that changes length but close to none that change shape and style.



> ​


 
 Yes that was set up very nicely.

 It may be straws that I'm grabbing but there's something to grab at it's not impossible and I won't rule it out.




> The manga never suggests that Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu was triggered by anything quite as intimate as the trigger for Itachi's crow was, which was the very *power* that emanates from his Mangekyou Sharingan. Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu's release trigger was merely the sight of the Sharingan belonging to this man that Itachi thought to be Madara. Nothing more, nothing less.



 Obviously because he only had the sight of Madara's MS & EMS while he would have more intimate knowledge of his own MS. You said that he would not have intimate knowledge of Madara's MS abilities but as I said he used the knowledge at his disposal... the sight of Madara's MS which is what the trap was set while he could be more specific with his crow trap because he had a more intimate understanding of his own MS.



> You're taking a lot of leaps in your attempt to correlate their particulars, with the only link being that they are rigged, Uchiha Kekkei Genkai related subjects. The entire premise is on very shakey foundation.



 Alot of thing that are vaguely explained are gonna be dissussed with shaky foundations.



> Yes, and you brought it up for a completely different reason, which was just addressed above.
> 
> The reason I brought the example back on you was to make it clear to you that Sasuke was not wielding *Itachi's* ocular powers. That the techniques he was casting from his Mangekyou Sharingan were his alone, and not the result of anything Itachi had given him.



 And I disagree with that which is why this debate is still going on.



> Because the douryoku Itachi sealed into Sasuke that day was *superficial*neither permanent, nor representing the full extent of his repertoire of Mangekyou Sharingan techniques. All it was meant for was the trap we saw unleashed upon Tobi.



 And I disagree with that which is why this debate is still going on.



> Because he *didn't* have everything he needed; the douryoku of Sasuke's Mangekyou Sharingan was his alone.



 The manga suggest otherwise(and I disagree with that which is why this debate is still going on.)



> I'm sure you've already understood from the responses to your last two questions, but you *did* get them. Those answers spurred all of these sub-topics we're discussing nowI'm actually thinking about movin' and/or copyin' even *more* posts to another thread...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _To recap_
> ...



 I understand that the questions were answered with the same answers that I have problems with and when I give more data they are mostly overlooked and/or also answered with those same answered.

*Spoiler*: __ 



I have the distinct and sinking feeling in real life your a Lawyer.

*Spoiler*: __ 



And you also have a Ferrari Enzo 









> _"The story begins *over 80 years ago*..."_
> 
> I undershot it too...


[/QUOTE]

 Then your taking that one line out of context.

 Tobi said I'm gonna tell Itachi's story, Its a long story
 Sasuke said go on tell me.
 Tobi said The story begins *over 80 years ago* when there were no villages an clans were hired by different organizations the two strongest clans were the Senju and Uchiha, and within this renowned clan I was born with the greatest, strongest chakra they had ever seen.
 Tobi is talking about before the villages were made and how how clans were by themselves not how old Madara is. 
 I see you totally skipped my questions. Which is either a clarifacation of the time line or a re-write to clear up confusion on dates but with those events it gives a better picture of the timeline.


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## Thdyingbreed (Jan 28, 2012)

Something thats been bothering me and I thought I'd ask your guys thoughts on it now I think it's a transplant.

But the one thing I don't get if it's Itachi's eyes why was the Susanoo Sasuke's version instead of since there Itachi eyes not Sasukes. Or at least have some characteristics of Itachi's version. 

Like Yata mirror or Totsuka sword since Sasuke stated he could feel his power flowing into him.


----------



## SaiST (Feb 2, 2012)

Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> I wouldn't say that they are being tarnished but alot of it is being left out an unanswered, I'm not saying to add it in your post but at least mention them.


I left out what I felt was extraneous. Not only do I not want to derail this thread any further, I'm intent on having you keep a clear focus on why these sub-topics are being discussed in the first place?which has already strayed a number of times.



> _Because that was the only one relevent at that point._


Long into, and well past the period in which Sasuke steadily mastered the douryoku of his Mangekyou Sharingan, it's the only one that's EVER been relevant.



> _I'm not disreading the blood. I'm saying that blood is not important to what Itachi gave Sasuke, its just important for other reasons._


You claim that the blood has no significance pertaining to what Itachi passed on to Sasuke, despite the fact that it came into contact with with the very same eye Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu soley reacts with as a direct consequence of Itachi's actions.

Instead of acknowledging such a simple connection, you chose to resort to this far fetched, half baked reasoning of unspoken themes and analogies in an attempt to displace it's significance; despite this being an especially coddling shounen manga in which the author tends to practically SUFFOCATE us with redundant flashbacks and wasted panels to make themes and analogies of that nature clear. To me, that's the same as disregarding it.



> _There is a big difference between "Yours" and "Your genjutsu" with the right context. I haven't found any "Your genjutsu" in my seaches._


I just provided you a thorough  of what Danzou said to Sasuke?from every single character, literal to natural?and you're still searching? For WHAT exactly? Did you learn nothing from the example of hisshou's _"ALL your Doujutsu"?_



> _I don't understand the bold line._



*Spoiler*: _Review_ 





SaiST said:


> The next time we saw Zetsu after remarking upon their motionless contest of Genjutsu, he showed an exclamatory reaction right in the middle of what *we* were seeing of Itachi's Tsukuyomi[1], which was cast AFTER his exchange of shuriken with Sasuke[2]. Between that, we saw nothing of him. Not even during [highlight]the exchange of shuriken?which we know wasn't a part of any of their illusions, as we could see those shuriken littered on the floor after Sasuke dispelled Tsukuyomi[/highlight].[3]
> 
> [highlight]That means everything from this point, to the moment Itachi used Tsukuyomi after the shuriken exchange, was all real[/highlight]. There's no indication that the Genjutsu Itachi used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke *before* that point transpired in a single instant?[highlight]not even Zetsu's lack of commentary, as he didn't even show any reaction to the shuriken exchange that immediately followed[/highlight].








> _1) If it was one long genjutsu how do you explain the change of clothes?_


Do you see any indication in the post above, that I'm claiming there was _"one long Genjutsu"?_ I linked to the point immediately after the Genjutsu Itachi used to detail Madara's history ended, where Sasuke is clearly taking his cloak off.



> _2) The visual of the beginning and ending of the genjutsu. The beginning it showed a close up of his MS eye at the ending it showed the image boxing off, Zetsu made no comments. The second time it showed a close up of the eye in the beginning and at the end it showed the image boxing off. This time Zetsu did comment about the fight being over because Itachi did Tsukiyomi. Both show the same imagery._


The imagery you speak of, present within the Tsukuyomi that began here, and ended here... Was NOT present within the Genjutsu was used to detail Madara's history to Sasuke, which began here, and ended here.

And again, you attempted to prove that the Genjutsu used to detail Madara's history was Tsukuyomi due to Zetsu's silence upon it's end. But where's all that chattiness of his from this point, to that point? That fast paced exchange of shuriken and Ninjutsu that transpired between those two points was all reality, as the highlighted bits of my post above should make clear.



> _3) Previous example of Tsukiyomi. The first time Itachi did Tsukiyomi on Kakashi, & the twice before on Sasuke they fell in exhaustion. Each time we learn it was in an instant(especially when Kakashi was hit. Asuma's comment sums it up). All those other time he pressured the targets mind with either physical or mental pain. The third time on Sasuke(the first in the fight) Itachi was not trying to stress Sasuke's mind, he even stopped it himself.
> The reason Zetsu didn't comment is because he didn't notice the first time, he missed it as would have Asuma if Kakshi didn't fall._


... Instead of providing clear evidence of the imagery within the Genjutsu used to detail Madara's history transpiring in an instant, you're trying to reason that:
Because Itachi wasn't being as HARSH with the imagery present within this Genjutsu you THINK was Tsukuyomi...
Sasuke was able to come out of it fresh...
And claiming that as a result?completely decimating the prior means of proving your argument?Zetsu wouldn't have felt the need to say anything about it.
Is that really what you're trying to say to me now? Somebody PLEASE tell me I'm misunderstanding him.



> _My latter post is a more indepth explaintion of my former post. If Sasuke doesn't have the skill(or the need or desire) to make long genjutsu's he can't perform Tsukiyomi to its full potentail and make the most effective use of Tsukiyomi defining trait.
> 
> The problem with the word "instant" is not a defintive amount of time. It could be a second to a day depending on the context of time. If the amount of time in the genjutsu is longer(or shorter) than the "instant", that shows less skill in the handling._


For something to be accomplished _"instantaneously"_ means without delay, momentary, fleeting. In your attempt to prove that Sasuke wields the technique, you are complicating matters by bending the established rules which define it, as if the mere _"instant"_ in which the Genjutsu begins and ends can be much longer depending on it's caster's proficiency?as if it can essentially be used with the properties of any other standard Genjutsu cast from the Sharingan.

Tsukuyomi does not work that way.

Which reminds me: IF you agree that the Mangekyou Sharingan can be used to cast lesser Genjutsu, WHY?despite it not demonstrating any clear evidence of it's effects?are you so adamant about the Genjutsu used to detail Madara's history being Tsukuyomi? Do you think acknowledging such would give credence to the notion of Sasuke not using Tsukuyomi? Or are you just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative?



> _All those example plus the Danzo fight, genjutsu was used secondary to his ninjutsu of either to cause a distraction to use ninjutsu or to escape near defeat, not as a main form of combat like genjutsu specialist._


The strength of the Genjutsu he's capable of casting from his Sharingan is attested by those examples. Despite that established strength, there was a very apparent reason for Sasuke to test his Genjutsu out on Danzou, a reason that would logically provoke even specialists in this field to do the SAME?regardless of how far into the battle they choose to do so. His preferences have no bearing on WHY he chose to test out his Genjutsu on Danzou, you're trying to use them as a means of proving that he sucks at using a technique he didn't even HAVE.



> _So Sasuke has three MS techs_


Including Susanoo.

I didn't say that it's been recognized as any distinct power of his Mangekyou Sharingan, only that he has demonstrated a clear preference for that eye to cast Genjutsu, even without the Mangekyou Sharingan. It hasn't been identified as, or functions like Tsukuyomi?thus, the simple conclusion would be that it isn't.



> _Wouldn't a more simple explanation be that..._


Contorting rules ≠ Simple.

Left: Amaterasu
Right: Kagutsuchi
Both: Susanoo


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## SaiST (Feb 2, 2012)

> _Do you remember were that crow came from? It was one of many genjutsu crow that split from Itachi's body when he had Naruto in genjutsu that he order to go down Naruto's throat. Unless your telling me that Itachi's body is actaully crows hiding under clothes? That "crow" is not a real crow._


Crows are not only featured prominently within Itachi's illusions, but employed in actual flocks to create his a PHYSICAL clone technique akin to Kage Bunshin, and at least twice mistaken for it; what you mentioned above would be an example of one of those instances... The crow wielding Shisui's Mangekyou Sharingan was palpable, and eventually INCINERATED for the sake of destroying the eye.

Regardless of the crow's nature, you are comparing this intangible power to an actual eye from which like powers are cast in order to prove the former example's permanency... Do you really not see the fallacy in this?



> _The trap was just activated, the seal was not released just like the Bijuu(which are massive forms of intangible power) are not released when the host activates that power or access it._


Except it's clearly said in the technique's entry that it WAS _"released"_, or _"broken"_.



> _Were was this said in the manga_



*Spoiler*: _His intangibility's link to his right Sharingan_ 



Tobi clearly uses his right eye to cast his Jikuukan Ninjutsu. It's been said that if he can can transport his entire body with it, transporting mere portions of it would also be possibleresulting in his intangibility.



*Spoiler*: _Why he kept his right Sharingan_ 



It wasn't. I'm talking about the most logical explanation that has been generally accepted by the readers.





> _Obviously because he only had the sight of Madara's MS & EMS while he would have more intimate knowledge of his own MS. You said that he would not have intimate knowledge of Madara's MS abilities but as I said he used the knowledge at his disposal... the sight of Madara's MS which is what the trap was set while he could be more specific with his crow trap because he had a more intimate understanding of his own MS._



*Spoiler*: _Why you brought this up in the first place_ 





Good Boy Turned Bad said:


> Another interesting thing to note is that Shisui's eye was set to activate at the sight of *Itachi's eye*. Why not set it to activate at the sight of *Sasuke's eye* ? Itachi said he set it up if Sasuke used his eyes things he planned went wrong.
> On the Amaterasu trap he set it for *Madara's eye*(I explained that in the other thread. Itachi bieng the one to figure out Madara's alive, Itachi saying Madara's eyes are fine, Itachi knowing Tobi(Madara) would show Sasuke his eye). Which brings up another question.
> 
> If Madara swapped, switched, replaced his own eyes with Izuna, and Itachi KNEW this. Why would he set the trap to activate at the sight of *Madara's eye* but not Izuna's eye?





You thought that Itachi's crow was set to respond to the SIGHT of his eyes, when it was in fact the very POWER his Mangekyou Sharingan emanates.

In your attempt to debunk my elucidation of the details of the exchange, you tried to use this loose connection of rigged, Uchiha Kekkei Genkai related subjects to claim that if Itachi was able to accomplish something of that nature with his own eyes, knowing what he did about Madara's history, the trigger he set up for Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu should have been just as specific with Izuna's eyes. Clearly, it wasn't.

This branched off into attempts to prove the legitimacy of this man's identity as Madara, which were unnecessaryI feel stupid for getting carried away with it. Because even if the long-haired masked fellow Itachi found back then actually was Madara, with Izuna's eyes and their POWER, that's not what Itachi set Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu to react to. The conditions of Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu's release were not as particular as those involved with Itachi's crow; it was not the power emanating from Izuna's eyes, but the mere sight of the Sharingan belonging to this individual he believed to be Madara.



> _Alot of thing that are vaguely explained are gonna be dissussed with shaky foundations._


You're the one using this flimsy evidence to discredit my words though. How's that been working out for you?



> _I see you totally skipped my questions. Which is either a clarifacation of the time line or a re-write to clear up confusion on dates but with those events it gives a better picture of the timeline._


... Sarutobi Hiruzen was 68-69 at the time of his death, which would put his birth at 71-72 years before the point we're at now. Tobirama recommended him for the position of Hokage when he was around 15, and he entertained the prospect of taking the position when he was about half that agea position of leadership that wasn't established until a period of peace had followed the founding of the Hidden Villages... Even if the ages are approximate, that wouldn't be too far off from the aforementioned 80 years. Thus, it can be logically deduced that Tobi was speaking of the period in which Madara lead the Uchiha to their prominence.

Whether you agree or not is inconsequential, as it's irrelevant to the greater point(which was, if you recall, that it's been a WHILE). Hence, why I left it be.



> _It may be straws that I'm grabbing but there's something to grab at it's not impossible and I won't rule it out._


Which is quite telling of the way this exchange between us has developed, and another clear indication that I need to step away.



> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Then EXPLAIN: If you believe Sasuke already wields Itachi's douryoku because of what he sealed into his little brother before he died, if those are indeed Itachi's powers alone, why would Itachi set up the trigger for his crow to react to his douryoku in anticipation of Sasuke taking his eyes, if Sasuke already had it?



> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Because you think Itachi passed on the entirety of his douryoku to Sasuke, and that all the Mangekyou Sharingan techniques we've seen thus far are unique to those who originally cast them.
The consequences of the forehead tap, Amaterasu being the only douryoku mentioned when this transference is brought up, and Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu's entry within the 3rd Databook would ALL indicate that this trap alone was sealed within Sasuke's left eyewhich, as Sho pointed out, would fit _"douryoku"_ just as well.
Tensha Fuuin: Amaterasu's entry, and the trigger for Itachi's crow would denote that said _"douryoku"_ was not permanent. 
Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu have history within the Uchiha clan. Itachi has no implied exclusivity to them.
We've seen only a handful of Mangekyou Sharingan users, and the only one that shares one of Itachi's techniques happens to be his little brother; which Danzou took note of after it was used on him.
Madara and Tobi intend to use a Mugen Tsukuyomi upon becoming the Juubi's Jinchuuriki.

Tobi has used a Genjutsu that has been likened to Kotoamatsukami.



> _
> 
> 
> 
> ...


W H E R E ?



> _..which is why this debate is still going on._


​
You're welcome to retort if you wish, but I'm done. I think I've explained my side of things well enough.



Thdyingbreed said:


> But the one thing I don't get if it's Itachi's eyes why was the Susanoo Sasuke's version instead of since there Itachi eyes not Sasukes. Or at least have some characteristics of Itachi's version.


It may just be an issue of familiarity; something that he'll have to learn along the way.


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## G Felon (Feb 2, 2012)

I'm seeing this thread bumped again and I'm try to figure out it's so hard for you people to figure it out. Eyes transplanted that means sasuke's eyes are thrown in the trash can, and the mangekyous need time to fuse and become one. Read naruto wiki for questions like these.


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## SaiST (Mar 5, 2012)

*[*mono*]*omg rly?*[*/mono*]*

​


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## takL (Mar 5, 2012)

now i reeally dont get why viz should have picked the word 'implant' when any jp speaker thinks of  'transplant' first with the owrd 移植.


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## SaiST (Mar 5, 2012)

Viz ain't perfect either.


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## Karman (Mar 5, 2012)

Remember how Tobi said it was a rarity to find eyes capable of getting as far as Susanoo? After Shisui's Mangekyou revelation and Itachi's explanation of the sacrifices of the clan I'll bet that Mangekyou can be achieved but awakening Susanoo is yet still a rarity. I would posit that Susannoo is but one of many factors which indicate eyes that are, in essence, compatible with the process of furthering it's doujutsu. 

Example:

-As an Uchiha, there is a chance you can awaken Sharingan.
-If you have Sharingan, there is a chance you can master all 3 tomoe.
-If you mastered 3 tomoe, there is a possibility you can obtain Mangekyou
-If you acquired Mangekyou, there is a remote possibility of awakening the third power: Susanoo.
-With Susanoo, you could potentially commit fratricide and, in transplanting the eye of your dead brother, awaken an Eternal Mangekyou.
-With an Eternal Mangekyou there is a small likelihood you possess the genetic predisposition to incorporate the power of the Senju.
-With the power of the Senju, there is a chance you may obtain Rinnegan.

Therefore, it's entirely possible that Madara and Izuna obtained Mangekyou. That Madara accessed the third power: Susanoo where his brother didn't. That in transplanting his brother's eyes, he gained a new light but his brother's body rejected its new eyes and he was left forever blind.


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## SaiST (Mar 5, 2012)

Very interesting theory. It has been suggested in the past that another possible, undisclosed prerequisite for acquiring the Eien no Mangekyou Sharingan would be the exceptionally powerful chakra that Madara and Sasuke possess.


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## Jizznificent (Mar 5, 2012)

SaiST said:


> *[*mono*]*omg rly?*[*/mono*]*
> 
> ​


lol those 52 ppl. i doubt this will convince some of them still. oh well...


Karman said:


> Remember how Tobi said it was a rarity to find  eyes capable of getting as far as Susanoo? After Shisui's Mangekyou  revelation and Itachi's explanation of the sacrifices of the clan I'll  bet that Mangekyou can be achieved but awakening Susanoo is yet still a  rarity. I would posit that Susannoo is but one of many factors which  indicate eyes that are, in essence, compatible with the process of  furthering it's doujutsu.
> 
> Example:
> 
> ...


lol i came to a similar conclusion in this thread but i was half joking about it.


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## SageEnergyMode (Mar 5, 2012)

It isn't some fusion of eyes. It's a simple transplant. The Mangekyou Sharingan powers of the shinobi that implants a new pair of eyes into his own head, is simply given an eternal light that will no longer go blind, using another pair of eyes as the medium. The power of their original eyes, likely due to that power still residing somewhere in the ninja's body, is completely infused into the new pair of eyes, and I assume the powers of the transplanted eyes are somehow also infused into the ninja that has chosen to transplant the eyes.

What form the unique powers that belonged to the transplanted eyes will take in a new host, I simply don't know the answer to that one yet. Sasuke will provide an answer. There's no way we can get the answer from Madara unless Kishi decides to tell us precisely what abilities originally belonged to Madara's brother's Mangekyou.



SaiST said:


> Viz ain't perfect either.




Most major translators generally agree that they are as close to it as you will find anywhere.


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## Mister (Mar 5, 2012)

I don't understand how the 'fusion' argument works. The general vibe was a transplant; that's why Madara performed surgery on Sasuke.


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## SaiST (Mar 5, 2012)

Jizznificent said:


> lol those 52 ppl. i doubt this will convince some of them still. oh well...


Closed the poll as soon as the chapter came out... :ho

For some, it'll probably take seeing Sasuke's eyes in a jar for them to admit that it was just an exchange. But the past few chapters have kind of driven it home—not just the above panel, but Sasuke speakin' of burning images of terrible things into Itachi's eyes in the previous chapter.



Mister said:


> I don't understand how the 'fusion' argument works.



*Spoiler*: _The root of the confusion lies with these three points_ 





SaiST said:


> ...But, due to the *results* of this exchange:
> The amalgamation of the donor and receiver's Tomoe Seals.
> The Housoushi youkai(thanks, Blinx)—acting as something of a visual metaphor of the receiver's power—depicted with one and two sets of Sharingan, before and after the exchange.
> The fact that—prior to Sasuke—Madara has been the only one to successfully perfect his Doujutsu, despite all of the attempts that have spanned across nearly a century
> ... A lot of people are dismissing the prior established information, and choosing to cling to this fabricated concept of eyeballs physically fusing with each other to explain it... Which, as I've said numerous times already, has never been so much as hinted at.


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## T-Bag (Mar 5, 2012)

i thought it was a fusion but recent chapters have made it clear it's an exchange


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## Chibason (Mar 5, 2012)

I'm close to conceding..........


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## SaiST (Mar 5, 2012)

Chibason said:


> I'm close to conceding..........




_"Search your feelings. You know it to be true."_​


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## atduncan (Mar 22, 2012)

Neji and Hinata should trade eyes, maybe they get a normal sharingan lol


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## Gabe (Mar 22, 2012)

i was wonder if it is an eye exchange can brothers just trade their eye to each other to gain the ems. for example when madara took his brothers eye could madara just not give his eyes to the brother.


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## Qwills (Mar 22, 2012)

Gabe said:


> i was wonder if it is an eye exchange can brothers just trade their eye to each other to gain the ems. for example when madara took his brothers eye could madara just not give his eyes to the brother.



EMS Itachi+EMS Sauske would cream everyone.


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## SaiST (Mar 22, 2012)

Gabe said:


> i was wonder if it is an eye exchange can brothers just trade their eye to each other to gain the ems. for example when madara took his brothers eye could madara just not give his eyes to the brother.


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