# Strongest Stand user in JoJo's Bizarre Adventure, that Kenshiro can beat?



## Geomancertactics (Jan 8, 2016)

Scenario:

- Kenshiro is in character.

- Speed equalized.

- Kenshiro can see and touch/hurt stands.

- Kenshiro has all of his abilities.

Who's the strongest Stand user he can beat?


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 8, 2016)

I can see where you're going with this 

Equalizing speed I can see him taking on some top tier Stands 

Nothing too broken though


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## XImpossibruX (Jan 8, 2016)

Speed equalization is key here, since practically every stand get's scaled to FTL and faster. 

Then you would have to remove hax, but even then, Stands don't have pressure points for him to manipulate, so he has to overpower a Stand or go directly for the user. 

If speed is equalized, he beats Polnareff with superior DC, but that's like equalizing speed when fighting the Flash


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## Geomancertactics (Jan 8, 2016)

Alright, I'll equalize speed.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 8, 2016)

By equalizing speed he wrecks anything in part 3 besides vanilla ice and dio


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## creyzi4zb12 (Jan 8, 2016)

He could beat Dio, if he gets lucker


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## fyhb (Jan 10, 2016)

Would Kenshiro be equalized to FTL speed or the Stands equalized to Ken's speed? Because Kenshiro likely wouldn't be used to fighting that fast and (maybe) vice versa


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> By equalizing speed he wrecks anything in part 3 besides vanilla ice and dio



He's not beating end of part 3 Jotaro. Polnareff can also take him if the speed isn't equalized again when Silver chariot drops it's armor.


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## Haro (Jan 10, 2016)

> - Speed equalized.


You took out Jojo verse's main advantage over like, everything.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2016)

Vivo Diez said:


> He's not beating end of part 3 Jotaro. Polnareff can also take him if the speed isn't equalized again when Silver chariot drops it's armor.


He sure as hell is 
Ken and foes have many town level feats 
No part 3 stand can physically match him besides dio and 9 seconds muda spam


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## Vivo Diez (Jan 10, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> He sure as hell is
> Ken and foes have many town level feats
> No part 3 stand can physically match him besides dio and 9 seconds muda spam



[YOUTUBE]gkYdlgox6tY[/YOUTUBE]

+5 second time stop = gg


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2016)

You know diamond is easier to break than rock right? 
You just cant cut it


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## Qinglong (Jan 10, 2016)

It wasn't actual diamond to begin with anyway


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## fyhb (Jan 10, 2016)

Doesn't Star Platinum and such have really high striking strength? The best I've seen for Kenshiro is breaking a rock without actually hitting it.


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## Imagine (Jan 10, 2016)

Kenshiro on average has superior striking strength to SP and TW. He always has been physically superior to them but they can surpass him via timestop, not by much though.

SP and TW are packing city block level punches, Ken's punches range from small town to town level

If you're talking about the country level timestop stuff then that was throw out a while ago.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 10, 2016)

Kenshiro (actually insert kenshiro enemies here but hey ) punches can open holes in clouds and literally change weather with his punches 
Thats what SP is facing


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## fyhb (Jan 11, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Kenshiro on average has superior striking strength to SP and TW. He always has been physically superior to them but they can surpass him via timestop, not by much though.
> 
> SP and TW are packing city block level punches, Ken's punches range from small town to town level
> 
> If you're talking about the country level timestop stuff then that was throw out a while ago.



I'm not, I just haven't seen many Kenshiro feats up til now


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Kenshiro on average has superior striking strength to SP and TW. He always has been physically superior to them but they can surpass him via timestop, not by much though.
> 
> SP and TW are packing city block level punches, Ken's punches range from small town to town level
> 
> If you're talking about the country level timestop stuff then that was throw out a while ago.


reason being?


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> reason being?



Obvious calc stacking because of " muh JJBA " was obvious . I do love JJBA as much as the next guy but it was quite clear the calc stacking, imagine if it was for OP or something else ? It would have been thrown out ages ago, not even accepted to start with .



Xcano said:


> Would Kenshiro be equalized to FTL speed or the Stands equalized to Ken's speed? Because Kenshiro likely wouldn't be used to fighting that fast and (maybe) vice versa



We assume both fighters are normal to their newfound speeds.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 11, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> By equalizing speed he wrecks anything in part 3 besides vanilla ice and dio



>anubis
>hanged man


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Obvious calc stacking because of " muh JJBA " was obvious . I do love JJBA as much as the next guy but it was quite clear the calc stacking, imagine if it was for OP or something else ? It would have been thrown out ages ago, not even accepted to start with .
> .



I don't think you really answered Teh's question.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

Because of calc stacking involving The World's time stop+accumulated damage, and it should have been thrown out for a long time now, it wasn't before because people heavily like JJBA and want it to have a real good battledome standing . 

Answered ?


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jan 11, 2016)

it's not calc stacking

don't confuse the issue

the problem is the assumption of continuous hits in the calc, i.e stamina

last time this came up, afaik, no-one could really provide evidence that SP/TW could continuously punch at X output per punch, trillions/quadrillions of times in a few seconds.

Does timestop allow them to stack damage? Yes.

How much damage? Probably orders of magnitude easily.

Is that damage country level? Probably not.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 11, 2016)

Nighty said:


> it's not calc stacking
> 
> don't confuse the issue
> 
> the problem is the assumption of continuous hits in the calc, i.e stamina



That makes more sense.


> last time this came up, afaik, no-one could really provide evidence that *SP/TW* could continuously punch at X output per punch, trillions/quadrillions of times in a few seconds.
> 
> Does timestop allow them to stack damage? Yes.
> 
> ...


TBH have we ever seen stands tired?


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 11, 2016)

Nighty said:


> it's not calc stacking
> 
> don't confuse the issue
> 
> ...



I think it's stacking in the sense that you're using a fancalc speed to measure how many punch he could generate within the duration of the timestop.
And the fact that no one can prove he's dishing out trillions of punches anyway.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 11, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> I think it's stacking in the sense that you're using a fancalc speed


It's a fact they are FTL going by inverse and feats, I don't see how that involves fancalculations.


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __ 








Getting punched like this for ten seconds nonstop isn't my idea of a good time 

Let's not forget the fact that Dio could just slit Kenshiro's neck and drain his blood, increasing the duration of time stop. Regeneration, blood freezing, etc.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Obvious calc stacking because of " muh JJBA " was obvious . I do love JJBA as much as the next guy but it was quite clear the calc stacking, imagine if it was for OP or something else ? It would have been thrown out ages ago, not even accepted to start with .


I don't follow, the entire logic was that the energy from the punches accumulated in the first place due to SPs showings of a ORAORAORAing on Sheer Heart Attack had a noticeable difference when used both normally, and during Time Stop.

Its calc stacking because the punches literally did stack in that case


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Nighty said:


> it's not calc stacking
> 
> don't confuse the issue
> 
> ...


We clearly see several instances of such extended barrages now that it's been animated. Lovers, High Priestess, etc.

Moreover, since Stamina is a nonexistent concern, and the assumption of bloodlust along with proven speeds at which those limbs can,move...for what reason would you assume less than,what is possible?

That doesn't make any sense


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

Nighty said:


> it's not calc stacking
> 
> don't confuse the issue
> 
> ...



Of course it is . 

Calc stacking is using one or more calcs to provide or to complement each other to get the final result .

Example: Someone calculated Luffy's reaction speed to be A, Kizaru blitzed Luffy, so we calculate how fast Kizaru needs to be to blitz Luffy with reaction speed A from whatever distance it was given .

Someone calculated Star Platinum's punches against that "diamond" teeth, and the result was X(I'm too lazy to search the proper results), and someone calculated how far into FTL Star Platinum is . Then using the speed and using the DC, someone made a calc out of both of the results of supposedly how much his damage accumulation would be .

It's calc stacking because it uses one or more calcs(In this case two) to get to the final result of another thing . 

Hence the name, calc stacking, because it " stacks" a calc on top of another one, and doesn't use direct feats .

If any of this that I said is wrong(The definition of calc stacking, the reason why, etc) please correct me . I'm not saying that what you said is worng, I'm saying that might've had two different reasons .


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Of course it is .
> 
> Calc stacking is using one or more calcs to provide or to complement each other to get the final result .
> 
> ...



....

So you're implying that a simple calculation of X amount of force (based on a shown feat) being delivered at Y velocity (also shown as it's own feat) over a time period of Z is supposed to be calc stacking?

...

Get out.

Literally the only reason that applied to SP was because the Sheer Heart Attack example showed that the forces involved do indeed accumulate during JJBA's time stops.

...I honestly can't believe you had the audacity to call such a basic observation wanking.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 11, 2016)

Punching isn't exactly just moving your arms in and out.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Punching isn't exactly just moving your arms in and out.



It is when you're an incorporeal ghost thing that only punches via moving said arms in and out.

It's not like SP takes a stance or anything to put weight behind it's punches.

There's no real need to try and muddy up the interpretation with unnecessary qualifiers when we already know that Star Platinum moving it's arms in and out produces X amount of force.

It's fairly straightforward.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 11, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Punching isn't exactly just moving your arms in and out.



ORAORAORAOROAROAROAROAROAROAROAROAROAROA vs ATATATATATATATATA
Tell me the differences in those punches.


> Moreover, since Stamina is a nonexistent concern


Even if it was Dio certainly could after getting that blood.


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## XImpossibruX (Jan 11, 2016)

So JJBA country level comes from punching 28633083150 times, around 26 billion times for accumulated country damage. 

Is there evidence to doubt that SP or TW can dish out this many punches? Or is the burden of proof on proving that they can in fact punch that many times for each time stop?


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> So JJBA country level comes from punching 28633083150 times, around 26 billion times for accumulated country damage.
> 
> Is there evidence to doubt that SP or TW can dish out this many punches? Or is the burden of proof on proving that they can in fact punch that many times for each time stop?



There's no evidence for doubt. The duration of a Star Platinum Time Stop is five seconds, and there's numerous instances of Star Platinum ORAORAORAing in excess of that amount of time without pause.

Basically, the burden of proof is on the claim that for some reason, during time stop this is not the case. And there is no evidence indicating such, to my knowledge.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> ....
> 
> So you're implying that a simple calculation of X amount of force (based on a shown feat) being delivered at Y velocity (also shown as it's own feat) over a time period of Z is supposed to be calc stacking?
> 
> ...



Yes because you use two different calculations, that aren't direct feats with scalling to find a new one(Instead of, you know, calculating the damage that is directly done after the SP time stop damage accumulation) . Hence, _*calc stacking*_ . And I didn't call it wanking . I said that, for much less, things have been thrown for other series, being biased is not wanking, it's just a flaw .


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Yes because you use two different calculations, that aren't direct feats with scalling to find a new one(Instead of, you know, calculating the damage that is directly done after the SP time stop damage accumulation) . Hence, _*calc stacking*_ . And I didn't call it wanking . I said that, for much less, things have been thrown for other series, being biased is not wanking, it's just a flaw .



...

Time Stop Punches barrages are, as shown by the Sheer Heart Attack fight:

Total Energy = (Force of Single Punch x Speed of Action) x duration of time stop

There is no two different calculations. That's using the known force of a single punch (Punch > Durability of Diamonds) and the speed at which those punches are thrown (Movement > Speed of Light)

These are _actual feats_ which give us _concrete numbers to measure with_

There's no scaling involved because _in both cases we're referencing Star Platinum's own feats here_, the only one getting scaled would be DIO and only because he has the feat of matching the Star Platinum that performed those feats for an extended period of time.

Therefore, the only things being calculated are 1) How Many Punches Are Thrown During Time Stop and 2) How Much Accumulated Force That Results In

Which is only possible because, again, Sheer Heart Attack shows that is literally how Time Stop mechanics work with regards to Star Platinum and The World.

smfh

At least know what you're talking about if you're going to act high and mighty about standards and other dumb shit.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

I don't remember the said feat from Sheer Heart Attack (It's that tank thingy that represents Kira's left hand right?) and I advocate for calculating the feat itself, not what the feat should've been, cause, something that didn't even destroy that road roller be called country level isn't very much logic .

And when the fuck did I act high and mighty ? I even said to correct me if I was wrong, and know we're debating, you're the one arrogant here that doesn't want to debate .


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## Toaa (Jan 11, 2016)

Guys chill seriously.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> I don't remember the said feat from Sheer Heart Attack (It's that tank thingy that represents Kira's left hand right?) and I advocate for calculating the feat itself, not what the feat should've been, cause, something that didn't even destroy that road roller turn be called country level isn't very much logic .
> 
> And when the fuck did I act high and mighty ? I even said to correct me if I was wrong, and know we're debating, you're the one arrogant here that doesn't want to debate .



Sheer Heart Attack took no damage from a sustained ORAORAORA barrage outside of Time Stop

Jotaro decided that trying that again would turn out better if done during a Time Stop, and his assumption proved accurate.

What it does is establish a mechanic. If we already know what each individual punch does, then it simply becomes a matter of determining the math behind how the energy stacks up, and then plugging in a punching speed to determine what the final result was.

I'm pretty clearly debating by calling out erroneous logic for determining what the high end of Jotaro and DIO's destructive capacity is. 

And besides, you're the one that brought up bias and got called out for it by literally everyone when I asked why the continental calc was thrown out. If you don't want to have your ego checked, then don't act pithy when it isn't called for.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> Sheer Heart Attack took no damage from a sustained ORAORAORA barrage outside of Time Stop
> 
> Jotaro decided that trying that again would turn out better if done during a Time Stop, and his assumption proved accurate.



Can you please tell me what chapter it was or link to it ? Cause from what you said, it isn't clear cut that he says " It will accumulate the damage(kinetic energy, but of course a character isn't going to say kinectic energy, at least not Jotaro I think) it just says that he will try with time stopped . Might be because he has more time to punch Sheer heart attack freely or something else though .




> I'm pretty clearly debating by calling out erroneous logic for determining what the high end of Jotaro and DIO's destructive capacity is.



Yeah but it certainly has flaw when after the high end(That is in what ? Teraton ?) the biggest result is in _*tons*_ . Also, in the calc, Brohan says that it was done by one individual punch the whole breaking of the teeth, which is outrageous as it was a successive flury of punches, the final ora is for dramatic effect for sure .






> And besides, you're the one that brought up bias and got called out for it by literally everyone when I asked why the continental calc was thrown out. If you don't want to have your ego checked, then don't act pithy when it isn't called for.



First: isn't it country level ? Second: I was not calling people "wankers" like you said I did, I merely said that people have a very big liking of JJBA and it probably had some influence on the result and you act like I was trying to rape your family, chill mate, this is an argument,  ad hominem is not good .



> What it does is establish a mechanic. If we already know what each individual punch does, then it simply becomes a matter of determining the math behind how the energy stacks up, and then plugging in a punching speed to determine what the final result was.



That's the problem, they are two _results done by calcs_ . What is the difference from this to the example of Kizaru that I gave(Using reaction speed to get a new speed when someone blitzes someone) ? None . The final result is brought by two calcs, and that is the definition of calc stacking as far as I know, if it's not then .



> If any of this that I said is wrong(The definition of calc stacking, the reason why, etc) please correct



Such a hard act isn't it ? Oh man, must be really tough trying to argue with someone WHO IS OPEN TO NEW IDEAS . 



TehChron said:


> I mean _really_.
> 
> You act hard, get called out, and then play the victim?
> 
> That's cute and all, but i'm pretty sure that if that bravado of yours had any basis in reality you wouldn't be backtracking the second someone pokes a hole in your argument.




For fuck's sake what the fuck is acting hard ? Trying to answer someone with the knowledge I have is acting hard now ? Well fuck, then I'll sue my teachers for trying to give me their knowledge, those fuckers .


" Backtracking " ? Oh you mean doubting ? Yes . Yes, I am doubting my own arguments, and for goodness sake you should do it too, nothing is constructed by being certain, it might not have occured to you that I'm debating here, if you succeed in proving me wrong I'm not gonna do a seppuku, I'm just gonna learn something, wow, being wrong in a debate is something that bad ?


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## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 11, 2016)

Tarkus still has a city block feat that Stands like Star Platinum and The World get scaled too which leaves the timestop stacked damage around the same as with the diamond calc. The diamond punching was thrown out because it was bs.

 theres the chapter with the timestop barrage


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2016)

*Spoiler*: __


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## Sablés (Jan 11, 2016)

Jotaro throwing all those punches was never in question

Its that for him to get that country level scaling, you must assume that he's throwing the same amount of energy  full-force in every single punch which is something that isn't exactly easy to prove.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Jotaro throwing all those punches was never in question
> 
> Its that for him to get that country level scaling, you must assume that he's throwing the same amount of energy  full-force in every single punch which is something that isn't exactly easy to prove.



No, the burden of proof is to show that the physics breaking punch ghost punches with less than it's full strength when it's bloodlusted

Occlam's Razor does not fall on your side of things barring evidence indicating otherwise.

And feel free to quote Darthg on this, btw.

I've been tearing apart the general idiocy of that line of argument over in the main convo for the past couple of hours.


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## Sablés (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> No, the burden of proof is to show that the physics breaking punch ghost punches with less than it's full strength when it's bloodlusted
> 
> Occlam's Razor does not fall on your side of things barring evidence indicating otherwise.
> 
> ...



Uh correct me if I'm wrong, but you assuming because SP is of a spiritual nature stamina has no bearing on it? That arguments tantamount to saying SP has infinite energy.

Unless that's a mechanic of stands, it makes fuck all of sense from my perspective nor can I see how the two even begin to correlate.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

Liquid said:


> Uh correct me if I'm wrong, but you assuming because SP is of a spiritual nature stamina has no bearing on it?
> 
> Unless that's a mechanic of stands, it makes fuck all of sense from my perspective nor can I see how the two even begin to correlate.



Yeah

Show me an indication that Stamina is relevant to a Stand.

Like, it's a ghost.

Energy given form.

_Why would stamina be a relevant factor at all?_


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## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2016)

I dont think i ever saw a stand tire without his user tiring 
Star platinum can thrown a huge amount punches each second of the time stop 
Thats a fact
The only part of this feat where there is an actual problem is how many punches SP throws.
Because i dunno if you can exactly calc the punch barrage just basing of one fan calced attack speed
But stopped time damage stacking is a fact well showed in the manga


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## fyhb (Jan 11, 2016)

Even assuming that Star Platinum hits with just 5 Kilojoules per punch and is 1 m/s faster than lightspeed we get 716.5 tons of TNT, Multi-City Block for time-stop. Does that change anything or nah? This is a low-end though.


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> I dont think i ever saw a stand tire without his user tiring
> Star platinum can thrown a huge amount punches each second of the time stop
> Thats a fact
> The only part of this feat where there is an actual problem is how many punches SP throws.
> ...



The question here isn't "Can Star Platinum throws punches faster than Light moves?"

But the question that's relevant here seems to be "Is there evidence that Star Platinum would throw punches in his barrage at less than maximum speed at any point during it's barrage?"

I'm pretty firmly of the opinion that there isn't.

But if someone tries to pull that doublespeak shit on me then they better show up with some thick skin.


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## Haro (Jan 11, 2016)

To the stamina argument giorno stated as his stand punched in a rush they got progressilyve faster and stronger and he beat Green days ass for over a minute (As stated by bruno himself)

To be fair GE is only C class in power but still. 
Also the 1000 punches per second is never stated ever. I looked for it multiple times while re reading through parts 3-5


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## Darth Nihilus (Jan 11, 2016)

Just a bit of info 


*Spoiler*: __ 



A Stand's abilities are categorized by 6 statistics: Destructive  power, speed, range, durability/staying, precision, and developmental  potential/learning. 

*Destructive Power* (破壊力 _Hakairyoku_):
Measures the Stand's strength and ability to cause destruction (physical  injury or collateral environmental damage) in a given period of time.  Not only limited to brute force, but also to its abilities combined. 
*
Speed* (スピード _Supīdo_):
Measures the Stand's agility and performance speed. 
*
Range* (射程距離 _Shatei Kyori_):
Measures the Stand's range of manifestation, range of ability influence, and spatial mobility. 
*
Durability/Staying* (持続力 _Jizoku-ryoku_):
Measures the Stand's endurance and level of susceptibility to damage and  attacks. This category may also gauge the effectiveness of their  power's ability of binding toward physical objects. 
*
Precision* (精密動作性 _Seimitsu Dōsa-sei_):
Measures the Stand's accuracy and range of influence/effect of their abilities to specified targets. 
*
Development Potential/Learning* (成長性 _Seichō-sei_):
Measures the Stand's possible functions, utilization of its abilities  and powers, and capacity to improve its overall capabilities. 
Each statistic is ranked from A to E; though rankings of None and Infinite are also possible. Rankings are defined as follows: 
*
A*: Excellent
*B*: Good
*C*: Average (the same level as a normal person)
*D*: Weak
*E*: Very Weak 

For range, rankings are defined as follows: 
*
A*: 100 meters (little over 328 feet)
*B*: 50 meters (little over 164 feet)
*C*: 20 meters (66 feet)
*D*: 10 meters (33 feet)
*E*: 2 meters (7 feet) 

To elaborate on the Developmental Potential attribute, it  decreases in rank as the user masters his or her Stand. For example,  Star Platinum is Rank A in Developmental Potential during _Part III: Stardust Crusaders_, but is given Rank C during _Part VI: Stone Ocean_,  as Jotaro has had many years to hone Star Platinum's power, but it's  Rank C position means there was still some of Star Platinum's abilities  Jotaro hadn't discovered. 

For a Stand to gain an E-Ranking, it means that either their  Stand user discovered all of their Stand's abilities, or the Stand came  with very few abilities and thus cannot grow any more than it has.


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## Haro (Jan 11, 2016)

Saying SP is a glass canon is retarded in all honestly.

Fucker tanked white snake, Crazy diamond and Sheer heart attack's powers.

It most likely means that the time his time stop can be in effect is not very much.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> The question here isn't "Can Star Platinum throws punches faster than Light moves?"
> 
> But the question that's relevant here seems to be "Is there evidence that Star Platinum would throw punches in his barrage at less than maximum speed at any point during it's barrage?"
> 
> ...


Oh no thats for sure 
SP is throwing many punches at his calced ftl speed with city block level dc against his enemy 
I hope no one has any issues with this much 
The thing is 
Just because you can do a bunch of punch barrel at ftl speed doesnt means you are literally throwing billions of them 
There is a recoil time between each punch you are connecting and what not 
To give you an example
Many saint seiya characters throws barrels of punches at mftl speeds 
But this doesnt means they are throwing quadrillions of punches per second 
Aiolia lighting volt is an ougi that has a stated number of punches that fluctates from 10 millions to x billions of punches depending on the translation you look


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## Haro (Jan 11, 2016)

Just letting you know Im currently working with a man named steel ball jack on a up coming jojo video in a OBD like manner.

I asked him to translate SP and Dio's databooks from Jojoveller

Both were stated by araki to pass the speed of light with stand rushes.

IT was in a facebook chat with 10 other people a few weeks ago.

Il try to go look for it and screen cap it for all of you,

But yes stands DO infact pass the speed of light while punching

It stated something with the pace of punches too but I can't remember it 100%, but its in the favor of the pace being extremely fast too


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> Oh no thats for sure
> SP is throwing many punches at his calced ftl speed with city block level dc against his enemy
> I hope no one has any issues with this much
> The thing is
> ...



Dark Schneider disagrees.

Also. Naturally the ability to handle any force you dish out yourself comes into play.

So barring Star Platinum splitting it's knuckles every time it uses an ORAORA rush during Time Stop, then recoil is going to,be largely irrelevant 

Basically, when bloodlusted, why would SP or The World hold back?

It's a simple question.


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## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> It is when you're an incorporeal ghost thing that only punches via moving said arms in and out.
> 
> It's not like SP takes a stance or anything to put weight behind it's punches.
> 
> ...



Duh, do you know how to throw a punch?
A punch is more effective when dealt with a substanstial amount of contact given transfer of energy.

And also, not being able to damage some one or something using a mcb attack isn't proof that his attacks should be country level.

-
You also need to prove that he is dealing all those damage in a single point.


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## Iwandesu (Jan 11, 2016)

I havent gotten to this part in the bastard manga i suppose (Still at vol 6) so sorry i dont really know where he disagrees with me tbh


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## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Duh, do you know how to throw a punch?
> A punch is more effective when dealt with a substanstial amount of contact given transfer of energy.
> 
> And also, not being able to damage some one or something using a mcb attack isn't proof that his attacks should be country level.
> ...



I'm pretty sure if I floated in midair and flailed my arms in front of me while shouting really loud I wouldn't be able to break a window, let alone diamonds

The idea of applying realistic standards of punching to a fictional entity which is itself one of many powers that fly in the face of realism is flat out dumb.

Especially when there's ample visible evidence of how it punches

By moving it's arms back

And forth

_Back_

And _forth_

Say it with me now:

_Back_.

And _forth_.

I mean, you're free to,imagine Star Platinum winding up for haymakers as it punches, but sadly that's just not how it's portrayed in any medium which it appears in.

Insisting on this asinine line of argument is willful ignorance at best and disingenuous nonsense at worst.

Everything else sprung from it is just noise to try and obfuscate just how dumb it is on Its face.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

iwandesu said:


> I havent gotten to this part in the bastard manga i suppose (Still at vol 6) so sorry i dont really know where he disagrees with me tbh



He punches things millions of times in a second as part of an exchange of blows with an enemy.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> It's the arc with Sheer Heart Attack in Part 4, I can't be assed to look it up, I'm too busy laughing at the idiocy of people arguing that magic punch ghosts have stamina concerns



Never said that .




> Okay, but that doesn't take away from my point that there are actual numbers to base it off of.



Yeah, but it makes it inconsistent as fuck . For much less things have been called outlier .



> lol, you say that while engaging in ad homs and straw manning yourself
> 
> sure, bro. acting butthurt because of "bias" is totally you just being reasonable



Of course I'm engaging in ad homs, after you fucking insulted me . I'm not going to stand people calling me something that I'm not, when I was very well educated, and you, were the one "acting hard " tell me, if before you were rude, I was rude to you anytime . Nope I wasn't, even because I had no reason to, the moment you started putting words in my mouth is the moment that I started using ad hominem .



> might as well throw out calcs entirely if you're going to act so suspicious of shit like numbers then
> 
> oh no, someone used math to determine a figure or to determine what amount of force would be necessary to break something!


Again, if you wanted to correct something, there was no problem in that, I don't give a shit . But you not only did not correct anything, but started saying that I was acting high and mighty as if my words are true . 



> I don't care if you're open to new ideas.
> 
> The ones you have currently are asinine, and those are what I'm arguing against. Not your self-declared open-mindedness.



The problem is that you're saying shit like I was acting like I owned the truth when I tried to clarify a doubt .




> Like I said, it's hard to believe you're all magnanimous when you reacted to my rather innocuous question with rather naked butthurt.



What ? When did I do this ? Not once I acted as if my words are true nor was I rude, not before you were rude to me .



> I mean, that has nothing to do with me, but i guess that kind of stuff is what to expect from people with apparent self-confidence issues.



You my therapist now ?



Darth Nihilus said:


> *Spoiler*: __



This does confirm my theory, what theory ? That neither Jotaro nor someone else never said " Oh, the punches are added up "  . Koichi just says, may I quote, " You stopped time right ? That way you could fight it without exploding " nothing on that phrase even links to " You stopped the time so you could accumulate damage(That we would assume it means kinectic energy, that would be a good assumption that I wouldn't bother)" . 

Now if you prove with statements that this is true, I concede . Also, if my version of calc stacking is wrong, please show me the correct one .


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 11, 2016)

TehChron said:


> I'm pretty sure if I floated in midair and flailed my arms in front of me while shouting really loud I wouldn't be able to break a window, let alone diamonds


Why would something be referenced as a punch work nothing like a punch?


> The *idea of applying realistic standards o*f punching to a fictional entity which is itself one of many powers that fly in the face of realism is flat out dumb.


Like every other calc here.
Get out of here you hyprocritical ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).


----------



## bitethedust (Jan 11, 2016)

Ryo Asuka said:


> Saying SP is a glass canon is retarded in all honestly.
> 
> Fucker tanked white snake, Crazy diamond and Sheer heart attack's powers.
> 
> It most likely means that the time his time stop can be in effect is not very much.



The durability thing is a mistake that's been  going on because of bad translations. It's meant to mean "how long a Stand can use his special ability". Since shit like Star Platinum and Za Warudo can only use time stop for a few seconds, they have E durability (whereas it's more along the lines of endurance). There was a thread about this subject years ago in the metadome that proved it, had japanese translations and all.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 11, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Why would something be referenced as a punch work nothing like a punch?
> 
> Like every other calc here.
> Get out of here you hyprocritical ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).



Bitch please

You're the one that's muddying a feat with irrational nonsense about how a punch ghost that's demonstrated how it punches with actual yields somehow adds in entirely imagined movements and flourishes because

"Punches don't work that way in real life"

Tell you what, you show me how a Stand punches in real life and then we'll pick up this conversation again when we're comparing it to how Star Platinum clearly punches in every single portrayal

Until then, go take up that retarded stamina nonsense with Darthg as well and go be hypocritical little shits while you try and convince anyone who'll Tell anyone thatll  listen that Clorox is a planet buster or whatever stupid shit you come up with


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 11, 2016)

You know you can continue on with your mantra, whining, and tantrum fits.
It'll still be dropped.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 12, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> You know you can continue on with your mantra, whining, and tantrum fits.
> It'll still be dropped.



And I'll still roundly embarrass you for being dumb enough to spout such lines each time it comes up.

That kind of perspective is the refuge of the mentally infirm. You can't win the argument but all that matters is people don't disagree with you?

Pathetic.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 12, 2016)

TehChron said:


> And I'll still roundly embarrass you for being dumb enough to spout such lines each time it comes up.
> 
> That kind of perspective is the refuge of the mentally infirm. You can't win the argument but all that matters is people don't disagree with you?
> 
> Pathetic.


Ha.
Only thing you'll embarass is your hypocritical self, you ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
Whining about applying realistic shit when that's pretty much the basis for every calc out there shows how much of a hypocrite you are, you shmuck.

And no, i simply lost interest.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 12, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Ha.
> Only thing you'll embarass is your hypocritical self, you ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).
> Whining about applying realistic shit when that's pretty much the basis for every calc out there shows how much of a hypocrite you are, you shmuck.
> 
> And no, i simply lost interest.



Next you'll bring up conservation of energy and how lack of collateral damage from large amounts of destructive force colliding against each other disproves those yields entirely.

And you have the gall to call me a hypocrite while spouting such nonsense.

There's a difference between calculating yields based on observable effects and using arbitrary definitions of "realism" to bullshit away feats you don't like.

This punching nonsense, this stands getting tired nonsense, these are you being knowingly two faced in order to con dumbfucks into agreeing with you.

Sasuga cancer

Only you lot would be content with being considered a genius among imbeciles.


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 12, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Duh, do you know how to throw a punch?


You use your entire body.



> You also need to prove that he is dealing all those damage in a single point.


 Energy is energy. If he decides to use your head as a punching bag it's going to be taking that combined energy after time stop.


----------



## fyhb (Jan 12, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Why would something be referenced as a punch work nothing like a punch?
> 
> Like every other calc here.
> Get out of here you hyprocritical ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".).



That's a bit different. Calcs apply real physics to something that we see happening, they don't apply real techniques to something. You wouldn't see Kenshiro blocking 10,000 punches and say it actually took 5 hours because the guy was winding up each punch rather than just hitting really fast.


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 18, 2016)

Nearly forgot about this thread. 


Unlosing Ranger said:


> Energy is energy. If he decides to use your head as a punching bag it's going to be taking that combined energy after time stop.


While that notion is true, the damage inflicted wouldn't really "stack" if it isn't dealt continuously in a single point.



Xcano said:


> That's a bit different. Calcs apply real physics to something that we see happening, they don't apply real techniques to something. You wouldn't see Kenshiro blocking 10,000 punches and say it actually took 5 hours because the guy was winding up each punch rather than just hitting really fast.


This is actually irrelevant. 
What you're doing is applying rl standards on kenshiro's capacity to block the attacks.
That's like saying an iai attack is simply a vertical or horizontal slash or some shit even though it's referenced as an iai attack.
That's dumb af. 

Won't comment about techshit's bullshit. Fucker can't even do decent calcs and he dares lecture me on shit like CoE. :rofl


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

Zenath a shit


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 18, 2016)

Shut up magina.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Nearly forgot about this thread.
> 
> While that notion is true, the damage inflicted wouldn't really "stack" if it isn't dealt continuously in a single point.
> 
> ...



I find it laughable that you cite an inability to make decent calcs when you're arguing about a literal ghost putting its weight behind a punch while it hovers in midair

It just begs the question about your ability to apply critical thinking.

That question being, "So how much do you pay that ghost writer of yours to type up those posts for you? You clearly don't have the mental capacity to write them up yourself."


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 18, 2016)

TehChron said:


> It just begs the question about your ability to apply critical thinking.


Oh the irony.
You really need to go back to school or listen attentively to your hum11 class and hopefully acquire good logical thinking skills before you come back here, pls do acquire shit like reading comprehension too.


----------



## bitethedust (Jan 18, 2016)

This thread contains perhaps the most lukewarm attempts at taking shots at I've seen in quite some time. Congratulations people!


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Oh the irony.
> You really need to go back to school or listen attentively to your hum11 class and hopefully acquire good logical thinking skills before you come back here, pls do acquire shit like reading comprehension too.



Hey at least one of us can present arguments

Rather than you being limited only to taking potshots that only you're laughing at, you should try and apply some of that critical thinking you keep implying you're capable of.

...On the other hand, maybe it's for the best. 

If a clown like you can't even laugh at his own jokes where no one else does, then it's not like you'd have anything left.


----------



## Haro (Jan 18, 2016)

Also uh.

I couldn't find the databook statement, I asked Steel ball jack to get it again for me when he is back online

ALSO bad company's Guns and missiles are the same power and speed of their said weapons, just condensed.


So thats cool I guess.


----------



## Geomancertactics (Jan 18, 2016)




----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Jan 18, 2016)

TehChron said:


> Hey at least one of us can present arguments
> 
> Rather than you being limited only to taking potshots that only you're laughing at, you should try and apply some of that critical thinking you keep implying you're capable of.
> 
> ...



Uhh, i did but you're too stupid to think.
Can't exactly spoonfeed you each and everytime, boy. No siree!


----------



## Geomancertactics (Jan 18, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Uhh, i did but you're too stupid to think.
> Can't exactly spoonfeed you each and everytime, boy. No siree!



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2k0SmqbBIpQ[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

ZenithXAbyss said:


> Uhh, i did but you're too stupid to think.
> Can't exactly spoonfeed you each and everytime, boy. No siree!



lol 

Half assed potshots and ponyfaggotry 

Sasuga cancer


----------



## XImpossibruX (Jan 18, 2016)

I can understand applying as much realism as you can to attacks and/or use IRL physics to determine how powerful/fast/durable something is; since it's pretty much the basis for these vs. debates. It's also reasonable to assume that something humanistic and bipedal punches similar or the same to how humans punch, unless it's stated otherwise. 

But can the basis for IRL human punches (I.e. pulling back and following through with a punch) be applied to Stands? Something that is a ghost/energy form of a user, which floats in the air. 

And is there *doubt * that Jotaro can't constantly put that amount of energy in EVERY single punch, if he in fact punches billions of time during that timestop? 

Just curious, cause this devolved into some fine passive aggressive shit flinging


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 18, 2016)

XImpossibruX said:


> And is there *doubt * that Jotaro can't constantly put that amount of energy in EVERY single punch, if he in fact punches billions of time during that timestop?


 I don't see any way to doubt it and the way we've seen timestop work in the dio fight really only helps.


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

I never understood the stamina argument, what I do understand is the why we chose to say that Jotaro/Dio are always constantly reaching millions/billions/trillions of punches everytime they swing argument. 

This was just an arbitrary number that Brohan decided on when he made the timestop accumulation theory calc.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

Imagine said:


> I never understood the stamina argument, what I do understand is the why we chose to say that Jotaro/Dio are always constantly reaching millions/billions/trillions of punches everytime they swing argument.
> 
> This was just an arbitrary number that Brohan decided on when he made the timestop accumulation theory calc.


It wasn't arbitrary, iirc 

And the onus is on Zenith to prove that SP and The World can't keep up that pace of punching for five seconds

There's literally no reason for it.

Its not like Stands have human limitations 

In any sense of the term


----------



## JoJo (Jan 18, 2016)

Yeah, I also don't see eye to eye with Dartg and the others who make the stamina claim. Stands are just projections of the user's mental and spiritual energy. I don't see why they'd get pooped out.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 18, 2016)

Well, if you think about it in terms of energy reserves rather than fatigue as a human would experience it, does it make sense to say that Stands have infinite energy? The user certainly wouldn't have infinite mental power. Though if the Stand keeps up its barrage for a long time with no visible indication of tiring, I'd look at that as a stamina feat in and of itself, making the argument a bit pointless. I mean, the general assumption is that a bloodlusted character is going to go all out, and "this guy could have been half-assing it" has never been an acceptable argument (without supporting evidence for said character half-assing it, of course) because then you could say that about absolutely anything and make any and all powerscaling completely moot. 

Where does the number of punches come from, though?


----------



## XImpossibruX (Jan 18, 2016)

The comments accuse it of calc stacking and the stamina argument comes up again.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 18, 2016)

calc stacking
which is my problem
because being ftl doesnt even necessarily means you can deliver billions of punches any time you want
see aiolia who tops at about 100 millions despite being mftl


----------



## Fujita (Jan 18, 2016)

I have absolutely no fucking clue what those numbers Taco is dividing actually represent 



> 1.0929e11/1.6=68306250000 punches/s



???????


----------



## Fujita (Jan 18, 2016)

Never mind, he's dividing speed by what I assume is arm length or something. I see now why my teachers always bitched about including units in calculations. 

Also, could somebody link the actual punching feat (with the timestop), please? I'm like three volumes into part 3, so I have no clue where it is.


----------



## XImpossibruX (Jan 18, 2016)

It's a theoretical of the max DC that Jotaro and Dio can dish out with accumulated punching damage.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 18, 2016)

> theoretical



uh 

so have they ever actually continuously punched throughout one of their timestops?


----------



## Regicide (Jan 18, 2016)

They have

I think

But you run into a bunch of headaches like whether or not they actually maintain that speed all the way throughout or if they have the actual stamina for billions of punches and whatnot


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

TehChron said:


> It wasn't arbitrary, iirc
> 
> And the onus is on Zenith to prove that SP and The World can't keep up that pace of punching for five seconds
> 
> ...



There was never any millions/billions/trillions of punches being thrown on panel nor was it stated. 

We can't see the original blog in the first place. Brohan blocked his blogs iirc.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 18, 2016)

Fujita said:


> uh
> 
> so have they ever actually continuously punched throughout one of their timestops?



Jotaro did a barrage on Sheer Heart Attack without timestop and did no damage

with timestop, he did a small amount 

so there's some backing


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

Yare Yare Daze


----------



## Regicide (Jan 18, 2016)

Those empty categories


----------



## XImpossibruX (Jan 18, 2016)

Wait, that's the legendary Brohan?

When I used to lurk here, I heard his name come up so many times. So that's him huh?


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

Discuss


----------



## Regicide (Jan 18, 2016)

Plus if you take the calcs at face value then they kind of imply that Dio/ZA WARUDO have teratons worth of energy reserves or whatever


----------



## Imagine (Jan 18, 2016)

Small country level Kira Yoshikage. Everyone else can be wall level


----------



## Fujita (Jan 18, 2016)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Jotaro did a barrage on Sheer Heart Attack without timestop and did no damage
> 
> with timestop, he did a small amount
> 
> so there's some backing



This feat, right? 


*Spoiler*: __ 












It certainly proves that the timestop lets damage accumulate in a way that doesn't happen with regular punches  

This... really seems like creating a feat that we think the characters should hypothetically be able to do instead of taking the feat we're actually given. Looking at what's actually drawn, there are, uh, way less than a billion punches. It'd be idiotic to expect Araki to actually draw a billion punches (what a waste of an immortal lifespan ), but like Imagine said, there's also no obvious indicator that many more punches happened than what we saw, no gap in the punching sequence between panels and no statement to the contrary. (Granted, the number of fists we see drawn there isn't literally the number of punches, given that each ORA! seems to be a punch, but there aren't billions of those in the speech bubbles either.) 

Does it make sense given their other speed feats? Not particularly. But fiction has never really felt a strong obligation to make sense, particularly when it comes to superhumans operating at reasonable timescales given calced feats.

Of course, maybe there's another feat where the above isn't an issue. Like I said, I haven't really read much past part 2.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

Regicide said:


> They have
> 
> I think
> 
> But you run into a bunch of headaches like whether or not they actually maintain that speed all the way throughout or if they have the actual stamina for billions of punches and whatnot


ghosts don't have stamina 

Stands don't either

That argument is...dumb.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 18, 2016)

Regicide said:


> Plus if you take the calcs at face value then they kind of imply that Dio/ZA WARUDO have teratons worth of energy reserves or whatever



They time stop the entire universe

So it's not like it's that outlandish in context


----------



## Regicide (Jan 19, 2016)

TehChron said:


> ghosts don't have stamina
> 
> Stands don't either
> 
> That argument is...dumb.


What shounen nonsense bullshit they have going on for them then

It doesn't really matter what you label it as

Unless you're implying that they're perpetual motion machines with infinite energy and/or their users don't have to put any work into maintaining their/the stand's actions or whatever the fuck

Which is..

Kind of an extraordinary claim


TehChron said:


> They time stop the entire universe
> 
> So it's not like it's that outlandish in context


Well I mean however much energy it takes to stop the entire universe in time is clearly energy that they can't use for anything other than.. stopping time

I mean if your argument is actually "well really it's low end because they have this REALLY impressive other thing going for them that's much better" then you should just fucking say that outright

But since timestop is timestop I doubt you can actually put a real figure on that

So it's not really a great point


----------



## TehChron (Jan 19, 2016)

Regicide said:


> What shounen nonsense bullshit they have going on for them then
> 
> It doesn't really matter what you label it as
> 
> ...



So where does GER draw the energy to use the Death Loop thing from? What about the Super Spin? Or perhaps the energy generated for Hamon shenanigans?

Of course it's an extraordinary claim. But the forces involved show that they are indeed extraordinary circumstances. Moreover, they're hardly unparalleled. 

The moment you accept that "these things require an impossible amount of physics breaking energy" you can hardly claim skepticism by that point.




> Well I mean however much energy it takes to stop the entire universe in time is clearly energy that they can't use for anything other than.. stopping time
> 
> I mean if your argument is actually "well really it's low end because they have this REALLY impressive other thing going for them that's much better" then you should just fucking say that outright
> 
> ...



Expression of energy in super powers in one way is hardly a unique phenomenon. Wizards and magic users able to utilize massive amounts of energy for destruction or other uses, but being unable to bring similar energy to bear for the sake of something as simple as a punch, is nothing new.

Saying "Oh if they possess the energy to do this one thing then why can't they use it to punch?" is horribly pedantic.

So Occlam's razor comes into play, where the onus is on you to prove _why_ said absurdity, once you accept it is reality, is impossible when even more outlandish things are perfectly doable.

After a certain point, skepticism needs to be justified when the foundations of said skepticism are shown to be inapplicable. 

JJBA is a setting which makes casual usage of powers and feats which should be by all means impossible. And it does such regularly.

Ergo, the onus is on you to prove why the logical conclusion simply isn't. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, correct?

And the extraordinary claim in this situation is defining that Star Platinum and The World's ability to punch is something grounded in standard physiology when all indications are that it is not, the same as everything else about them.

To assert otherwise without basis is pedantic.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 19, 2016)

I think we can take this is as me winning the argument, for future reference


----------



## Gunstarvillain (Jan 19, 2016)

Darth Nihilus said:


> [YOUTUBE]DefXS17jZwE[/YOUTUBE]



Holy fuck I haven't read this far but Jojo verse don't fuck around. 
I know about broken ass stands but the animation of the fights make it look crazy incredible


----------



## XImpossibruX (Jan 19, 2016)

David Production does a great job.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 19, 2016)

Well, it seems like Regi doesn’t give a darn anymore, so I might as well continue this 

This “ghosts don’t have stamina” thing doesn’t… really make much sense. It’s not exactly uncommon to see ghosts in fiction exhaust their resources, even if those resources aren’t physical stamina per se. Stands are their own thing and don’t necessarily work the way ghosts or other mental projections work in other fictions do, but the principle is more or less the same. Stands may come from the user’s mind or willpower or something like that (can’t remember the exact explanation), but that shit certainly isn’t inexhaustible either, or if it is, nobody’s posted proof. Stamina (or energy reserves, if you’re defining stamina as something only biological/physical characters have) is only not a concern for a character to the extent that we see that it isn’t, i.e. they do something and don’t get tired (or don’t fail to keep doing it, if they don’t really experience fatigue). That doesn’t prove that they can also do something else entirely and also not get tired.  

Characters can do things they have feats for, and can’t do things that they don’t, with some reasonable extrapolation involved. If somebody punches a hundred times and doesn’t get tired, you can safely say they can do that again. But extending that by many orders of magnitude? Nah. 

Stopping time is unquantifiable. How much energy does it cost? Who the fuck knows. It could be much more than we’re claiming here, it could be less, or it could not even use energy in the conventional sense, and it doesn’t automatically translate to the ability to punch harder. You can’t appeal to it to support or debunk the punching calc, one way or the other. 

Not that all of that matters all that much. As far as I can tell from what’s been posted, the number of punches is a hypothetical, not something you can actually back up by looking at the actual feat itself without _heavy_ extrapolation, to the point that according to the calc, most of the feat actually happens off panel. That’s… incredibly dodgy. Granted, there are plenty of feats where we don’t see most of them, such as long-distance travel feats. But in those cases, we have some clear explanation of the feat that tells us what’s happening in-between panels. Billions of extra punches, never hinted at during the feat itself? Not so much.


----------



## bitethedust (Jan 19, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Well, it seems like Regi doesn?t give a darn anymore, so I might as well continue this
> 
> This ?ghosts don?t have stamina? thing doesn?t? really make much sense. It?s not exactly uncommon to see ghosts in fiction exhaust their resources, even if those resources aren?t physical stamina per se. Stands are their own thing and don?t necessarily work the way ghosts or other mental projections work in other fictions do, but the principle is more or less the same. Stands may come from the user?s mind or willpower or something like that (can?t remember the exact explanation), but that shit certainly isn?t inexhaustible either, or if it is, nobody?s posted proof. Stamina (or energy reserves, if you?re defining stamina as something only biological/physical characters have) is only not a concern for a character to the extent that we see that it isn?t, i.e. they do something and don?t get tired (or don?t fail to keep doing it, if they don?t really experience fatigue). That doesn?t prove that they can also do something else entirely and also not get tired.
> 
> ...



If it helps, Stands have never seen or stated to be exhausted or tired after doing anything at all. 
And only a few Stand users have ever been tired at all, namely the timestop users and Diavolo, and Diavolo's ability was also stated in the same fight to be related to how Diavolo's stamina, not that of his Stand.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 19, 2016)

bitethedust said:


> If it helps, Stands have never seen or stated to be exhausted or tired after doing anything at all.
> And only a few Stand users have ever been tired at all, namely the timestop users and Diavolo, and Diavolo's ability was also stated in the same fight to be related to how Diavolo's stamina, not that of his Stand.



Thanks for the info. That's well and good, but that still only means that they haven't gotten tired doing the things they've done, which in no way proves that they won't get tired or otherwise fail to do things much more impressive than what they've done. Sort of like how Saitama putting in zero effort for most of his fights doesn't mean that he can beat people with feats much better than his. It's not so much that I think the Stand is going to start sweating and develop muscle fatigue, it's that the lack of clearly demonstrated limits doesn't mean you don't still cap something at its best feats. That's the whole idea behind the no-limits fallacy.


----------



## Imagine (Jan 19, 2016)

Yeah fuck the stamina argument. 

What should be in question is the number of punches. That's what the argument should have always been about.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 19, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Yeah fuck the stamina argument.
> 
> What should be in question is the number of punches. That's what the argument should have always been about.



It helps that we have numerous examples of how the arm itself moves, and that all of those examples are themselves consistent


----------



## TehChron (Jan 19, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Thanks for the info. That's well and good, but that still only means that they haven't gotten tired doing the things they've done, which in no way proves that they won't get tired or otherwise fail to do things much more impressive than what they've done. Sort of like how Saitama putting in zero effort for most of his fights doesn't mean that he can beat people with feats much better than his. It's not so much that I think the Stand is going to start sweating and develop muscle fatigue, it's that the lack of clearly demonstrated limits doesn't mean you don't still cap something at its best feats. That's the whole idea behind the no-limits fallacy.



In the case of the Time Stoppers, their loss of stamina was caused by _multiple_ consecutive uses of Time Stop

Which means we can assume that said limitations don't come in to play during a single time stop.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 19, 2016)

Imagine said:


> Yeah fuck the stamina argument.
> 
> What should be in question is the number of punches. That's what the argument should have always been about.



Yep 

If you have a solid basis for the number of punches involved, the stamina issue more or less resolves itself  

The issue, then, is 



> As far as I can tell from what’s been posted, the number of punches is a hypothetical, not something you can actually back up by looking at the actual feat itself without heavy extrapolation, to the point that according to the calc, most of the feat actually happens off panel. That’s… incredibly dodgy. Granted, there are plenty of feats where we don’t see most of them, such as long-distance travel feats. But in those cases, we have some clear explanation of the feat that tells us what’s happening in-between panels. Billions of extra punches, never hinted at during the feat itself? Not so much.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 20, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Yep
> 
> If you have a solid basis for the number of punches involved, the stamina issue more or less resolves itself
> 
> The issue, then, is



At which point the issue becomes less "Do we see on panel proof of this" vs "Is there any reason why we wouldn't extrapolate the highest possible number?"

Because then the Razor comes into play, which is that naturally in absence of any reason for limitations to apply, then naturally limitations do not apply.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 20, 2016)

TehChron said:


> At which point the issue becomes less "Do we see on panel proof of this" vs "Is there any reason why we wouldn't extrapolate the highest possible number?"
> 
> Because then the Razor comes into play, which is that naturally in absence of any reason for limitations to apply, then naturally limitations do not apply.



…what 

“Let’s make the number as big as we can instead of going by on-panel proof” is some Red Hero logic and I seriously hope this is just a case of wording your post badly 

And that is… not how Occam’s Razor works. This is Occam’s Razor: “Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily.” Meaning that you look at the evidence, and extrapolate as little as you need to. On-panel evidence involves the absolute minimum amount of extrapolation, because it’s stuff that we know happened. 

And no matter how weird, physics-defying or generally bullshit a feat or a verse is, you have to actually look at the fucking panels in order to figure out what’s happening. It’s… kind of non-negotiable. So Occam’s Razor would _always_ support taking on-panel proof over extrapolating to get bigger numbers no matter what verse we’re using, unless we are given an extremely compelling reason somewhere else _in the story_ to distrust a particular panel. The question isn’t “Is there any reason why we wouldn't extrapolate the highest possible number,” it’s “Is there any reason why we _would_ extrapolate to get the highest possible number?” 

As far as I can see, the only reason given is that the characters can punch at a given speed. Swell. That does not translate into the ability to fire off vastly more punches than we’ve ever seen happen on-panel, even if the fight lasts long enough for them to (hypothetically) do so. Why? Because that’s a level of ability we’ve never seen, and it requires evidence besides a fan calculation. The OBD conceptualizes fictional fights in a particular way. We look at FTL characters and say that for them, a time frame like a second is an eternity and that in a battledome context it makes the most sense to assume that they can do many, many things in a second. Fiction… doesn’t always do this. There’s no intrinsic reason it should, because it’s just a guy drawing shit on a page and he can do whatever the hell he wants. When fiction is inconsistent, we can certainly disregard the inconsistency to make it fit better with how we handle vs battles, but we should not be in the business of writing fanfic to make things happen that we can’t prove happened. This calc is sort of like saying that Goku switched out his 40 ton weights for something more appropriate in-between panels, and using that as a lifting feat, instead of just writing off the scene as inconsistent.


----------



## TehChron (Jan 20, 2016)

All of that is great, except we're assuming bloodlust 

And in a bloodlusted scenario, he will go all out to kill his opponents 

Ergo, we need to determine what constitutes going "all out", which is naturally him putting in his utmost effort possible to kill his adversaries.

Which means that, barring actual limits, he'll do everything within his power. Occlams Razor comes in to play here, since what is under contention is not "how far he will go" but rather "what is Jotaro capable of"

So naturally we go for the highest reasonable showing. Barring a specific feat, yield, or other convenient number we figure one out based off of available evidence 

Evidence which consists of:

1) Attacks that would have no effect outside time stop do so within timestop 
2) Star Platinum moves a certain degree of FTL 
3) Time Stop is 5 seconds
4) Star Platinum can punch without limit during that interval 
5) Under these circumstances, Jotaro will do his utmost to kill his opponent 
6) Star Platinums punching style consists entirely of moving his arms back and forth

What lays next is figuring out "What is the worst damage Star Platinum could inflict under these circumstances?"

Naturally this question is answered by taking into account all relevant factors and evidence.

Just like how factors for which there are no evidence are dismissed. Hence the Razor.

Simple, right?


----------



## Fujita (Jan 20, 2016)

TehChron said:


> All of that is great, except we're assuming bloodlust
> 
> And in a bloodlusted scenario, he will go all out to kill his opponents
> 
> ...



Yes

None of this is inconsistent with what I’m saying  

So let’s look at your evidence 



> 1) Attacks that would have no effect outside time stop do so within timestop



Fine and dandy, but unquantifiable 

You can say the same sort of thing about blitzing, and we don’t try and put numbers on that 



> 2) Star Platinum moves a certain degree of FTL



sure  



> 3) Time Stop is 5 seconds



naturally



> 4) Star Platinum can punch without limit during that interval



…absolutely fucking not 

This is a no-limits fallacy 

He can punch as many times as he’s capable of, the number of times he’s capable of being determined by his feats and his feats alone, not how many times we’d like him to be capable of punching 



> 5) Under these circumstances, Jotaro will do his utmost to kill his opponent
> 6) Star Platinums punching style consists entirely of moving his arms back and forth



Right, none of which means anything in light of the problem with point 4 



> What lays next is figuring out "What is the worst damage Star Platinum could inflict under these circumstances?”



No, the question is “what is the damage Star Platinum could actually inflict based on what we see it do”

I don’t object to assuming that each punch is full power, and if you had a separate feat of him launching billions of punches, you could probably apply that to the time stop even if what he does inside the time stop seems relatively lackluster. But since nobody has posted a feat like that and the only responses I get to a request for the actual feat involved are “it’s hypothetical” and a link to a feat where nothing like what you’d need to prove billions of punches happens, I don’t see anything but a calc for a feat that never happened.


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## Ramius (Jan 20, 2016)

Even in bloodlust characters don't do shit we haven't seen them doing, don't even try to argue otherwise. It's not a "hypothetical battle between the characters fighting with the hypothetically most convenient method they haven't used in a bloodlusted scenario", it's simply a hypothetical battle between characters given their feats doing the best they have shown or are powerscaled to. Again, feats! Not hypothetical abilities they haven't shown on panel. They haven't punched billions or quadrillions of times, so they can't.

And Kenshiro isn't beating Jotaro/Dio anyway, because they'd still basically have him at his mercy for couple of second and it's not like Kenshiro's "town level" durability translates over his entire body at every point, similar to the concept of some blitzing another character of higher durability and cutting his neck off or some shit. A concentrated attack of some MCB magnitude, on piercing his chest and ripping his heart out would more than do the job.

Edit: nevermind, it seems like you guys are over this part of the argument


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 20, 2016)

There has been evidence of stands having infinite stamina.


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## Haro (Jan 20, 2016)

> There has been evidence of stands having infinite stamina.



Yeah and databooks state they have a punching speed and pace faster than light, its said in the worlds and SP's 
Jojoveller books.

Like I said still trying to find the chat


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## Fujita (Jan 20, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> There has been evidence of stands having infinite stamina.



then post it


----------



## TehChron (Jan 20, 2016)

Fujita said:


> then post it



I think that even that aside, we have examples of Stand Users getting tired

And that limit is "way beyond a single time stop filled with punches"

I'll go back to your other post once I'm on my laptop


----------



## Ramius (Jan 20, 2016)

Well, having read this thread I side with Teh on the stamina argument - if we look at it again, there really isn't a problem of them having stamina issues in 1 or 2 time stops. Even if it is, it's negligible. 

But then again - the number of punches they throw are never suggested to be in billions/quadrillions. 
As a safe realistic "low end" I counted 178 ORAs in that one scan from Part 4, but I'd say it's safe to assume at least 200. That's Part 4 Jotaro, with 1-2 seconds timestops, where most of them were a second. Besides, he took some sweet time in talking to the bomb before starting beating it, so one second is fair.

Multiply that by 5 for Jotaro's peak and by 9 for Dio's peak and that's 1000 and 1800 punches.
Each of those punches we assume to be Tarkus' level and higher, so that's 19.2 tons of tnt per punch. Since the damage accumulates as evidenced, we get 19.2 Kt and 34.5 kt for Dio. Regardless how we play with the numbers here, they are going to be some degree of town level. 

That's not too shabby and I'd imagine it's within the limits of what I'd expect them to output. In any case it's enough to kill Kenshiro. 

Another way of doing this is to scale them to Weather's Report feat, though I'm not too sure about that. Of course it would be perfect if we got some databook or some evidence as of how many punches they can throw, that would settle it. I'd imagine it's at least thousands in reality.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 20, 2016)

Ramius said:


> Well, having read this thread I side with Teh on the stamina argument - if we look at it again, there really isn't a problem of them having stamina issues in 1 or 2 time stops. Even if it is, it's negligible.



That's not the stamina argument exactly. They certainly don't get tired after throwing whatever number of punches they throw in the time stop. However, "stamina" is one reason to be incredibly skeptical about them having the ability to throw billions more punches offscreen, when all we can confirm is that they don't get tired after throwing the number of punches we see onscreen. Though you don't really need a reason to doubt the offscreen punches beyond "there's no proof that they did that," so the stamina thing is a bit... beside the point.


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## Fujita (Jan 22, 2016)

It's been two days 

is anybody going to continue this or nah


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 22, 2016)

Fujita said:


> then post it



It starts with a N and ends with a BIG


----------



## Hachibi (Jan 22, 2016)

Fujita said:


> It's been two days
> 
> is anybody going to continue this or nah



Please wait warmly until Asuka finally find what he's searching all along.


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## Haro (Jan 22, 2016)

Hachibi said:


> Please wait warmly until Asuka finally find what he's searching all along.



Im really sorry, I can't find it in my feed and im waiting for steel ball jack to get back online.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 23, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> It starts with a N and ends with a BIG



.
If no one got the hint this is a stand itself having infinite "stamina"


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## Hachibi (Jan 23, 2016)

I love how it redirect me to the story arc and not the stand page


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 23, 2016)

That stands power is to break links.


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## Fujita (Jan 23, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> .
> If no one got the hint this is a stand itself having infinite "stamina"



That's one Stand with infinite stamina 

You'd need proof that Stands generically have infinite stamina (which people have mentioned doesn't seem to be the case, at least as far as the user+Stand combo is concerned) for this to be relevant in this discussion, though, unless this somehow scales to Star Platinum or The World. I mean, GER is universal, but other Stands aren't necessarily universal because of that.


----------



## Sablés (Jan 23, 2016)

Rather, the fact that stand is highlighted to have infinite stamina only proves its not something all stands have and can't be equalized across the board.


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## TehChron (Jan 25, 2016)

No one should be arguing that Stands have infinite Stamina, nor should you be demanding that there be some kind of imaginary baseline that is founded in...whatever the fuck you're trying to say, I dont really care.

But in the cases where limits are indeed shown, they should be taken into account.

Or. More accurately.

"This Stand has performed these actions one after another without showing fatigue. Ergo, the upper limit for what that Stand can do is at this level or greater."

In the case of both Star Platinum and The World, we have a period of continuous, uninterrupted punching during a five second time stop.

Therefore, the limit of their "stamina" is greater to an undefined degree than the exertion from a singular instant of said continuous punching for five seconds during a time stop.

It's as simple as that.


----------



## Fujita (Jan 25, 2016)

TehChron said:


> No one should be arguing that Stands have infinite Stamina, nor should you be demanding that there be some kind of imaginary baseline that is founded in...whatever the fuck you're trying to say, I dont really care.



It’s very simple 

UR claims he has proof of Stands having infinite stamina, then points me to something that wouldn’t mean anything for Star Platinum or The World unless he also shows that 
a) this means that all stands have infinite stamina
b) Star Platinum and The World scale to this Stand 

if this is an “imaginary baseline” it’s because what UR posted isn’t actually proof of what he’s saying, and it’s an issue you should take up with him 



> But in the cases where limits are indeed shown, they should be taken into account.
> 
> Or. More accurately.
> 
> ...



You’re dodging the point. They punch continuously, yeah, but when they do, the number of punches we actually see falls hilariously short of what you’re claiming actually happened. 

Either you extrapolate from their FTL punching speed and the punching duration to get a result that’s inconsistent with on-panel showings, or you take on-panel showings and accept a result that might be inconsistent with the theoretical maximum punching rate. 

The first option involves inflating their destructive capacity and stamina by a factor of about a million (going by Ramius’s lazy calc) compared to what you can actually prove they did by looking at the panels. Being able to punch at a given speed doesn’t necessarily prove that they can punch any particular number of times. If they can punch a billion times, then yeah, that’s what they’ll do. If they can’t punch a billion times, then they aren’t going to do that, even if they have enough time to theoretically do so. The only way to prove that they can punch a billion times using the feats we’re given is by assuming that they have the stamina to do so, and then extrapolating billions of offscreen punches into their punching feats, which is circular.   

The second option involves fewer assumptions. You brought up Occam’s Razor before. In this case, it favors taking on-panel feats over guesswork. 

Also, kind of a tangent, but I can’t find any feat where they punch uninterrupted during a time stop. I decided to go ahead and read volume 16 of part 3 since I read volume 15 after I found it in the bookstore before I knew scans were a thing, and the only thing that comes close is when Jotaro and Dio are whaling on the steamroller… after seven seconds of timestop have already passed. This feat also involves a relatively lackluster number of punches. The best feat seems to be continuous punching for two or three seconds, going off the end of part 3 and the sheer heart attack feat, which was the only thing anybody bothered to supply as an actual feat when I asked for one. You’d only need a second or so if you buy the billions-of-punches-a-second thing, though, so like I said, a tangent.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2016)

Fujita said:


> You'd need proof that Stands generically have infinite stamina


It had no user that is what made  it special, *stands* themselves have infinite "stamina."
It's not a special case.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 25, 2016)

I mean the story made it obvious as fuck why N.B. was a threat.
If you only put The World in a match the same damn thing would happen.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jan 25, 2016)

not quite
big ability was to let loose with his user death
za warudo and SP needs dio and jotaro and thats why they protect them 
it would be dumb for thinking stands like both of them are to do otherwise if they could


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## Fujita (Jan 25, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> It had no user that is what made  it special, *stands* themselves have infinite "stamina."
> It's not a special case.



It persists after the user's death, while other Stands... don't. How is it not a special case? It's clearly got an atypical way of keeping itself around. It's not like other Stands have infinite regen as an ability, either, while this one does, so I... really can't see how this Stand isn't special.



Unlosing Ranger said:


> I mean the story made it obvious as fuck why N.B. was a threat.
> If you only put The World in a match the same damn thing would happen.



If you made a match with a fanfic version of The World which can exist without Dio, and gave it the infinite regeneration shenanigans which it hasn't displayed in the series, then sure.


----------



## Geomancertactics (Jan 25, 2016)

Silver Chariot didn't even have enough strength left to pull Polnareff out of they way of Cream's death ball thing, IIRC.

Does that mean anything for this stamina argument?


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (Jan 25, 2016)

That seems like PIS since Iggy could move Polnareff but was even more tired and actually died from doing it


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Jan 26, 2016)

Fujita said:


> It persists after the user's death, while other Stands... don't. How is it not a special case?


Because if you kill a stand. the user dies as well, they both die.
If the user dies the stand dies normally as well.
It makes a loop.

The special case of it remaining after death is all there is, there is no user.
It becomes you kill a stand and... fucking nothing, oh fuck it isn't actual dying because it can't. No user.

The activation was remaining after the users death and regeneration, the rest of the stuff isn't special.

There are other cases of a stand living on after a users death even after.




> It's clearly got an atypical way of keeping itself around. It's not like other Stands have infinite regen as an ability, either, while this one does, so I... really can't see how this Stand isn't special.


It couldn't die because it couldn't. There is no user.
It's regeneration is an ability it had that allowed it to remain and stay a threat.
The most fanfic part of that is giving regeneration to other stands separated.


> If you made a match with a fanfic version of The World which can exist without Dio, and gave it the infinite regeneration shenanigans which it hasn't displayed in the series, then sure.


Well obviously that couldn't happen normally.
But more bizarre things have happened.


> not quite
> big ability was to let loose with his user death


There seems to be a misunderstanding.
Yes, big is the only one that could because of that.
But that doesn't mean that it's actually just THAT stand and more that it bypasses what most stands can't in regards to death requirements.


> za warudo and SP needs dio and jotaro and thats why they protect them
> it would be dumb for thinking stands like both of them are to do otherwise if they could


 They certainly couldn't stop time without them. It's made pretty clear the timestop is a combination of the stand as well as the will and belief of the user to stopping time. Still would punch things to death however. Because punch ghosts. But this is to make it more clear that stands don't really have stamina.
It's not a thing.


Geomancertactics said:


> Silver Chariot didn't even have enough strength left to pull Polnareff out of they way of Cream's death ball thing, IIRC.
> 
> Does that mean anything for this stamina argument?


[YOUTUBE]zxuIPYGnrQk[/YOUTUBE]

*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Fujita (Jan 26, 2016)

The fact that most other Stands can’t remain around after death means that whatever property Notorious B.I.G. has that lets it stay around perpetually, unable to be killed, they don’t have it. It’s not something you can generalize to other Stands, because it’s not just any old Stand just without a user, since any old Stand doesn’t… work without a user. 

And as far as I can tell, the only reason to say that it has infinite stamina is that its “durability” is listed as infinite, since it can perpetually come back from the damage inflicted on it and will never die on its own. It’s destructive capabilities are also listed as infinite, for that matter, which you also couldn’t generalize to another Stand. Where’s the evidence that another Stand, without that particular ability, wouldn’t just fade away after some given time or something like that? Neither Star Platinum or The World have Notorious B.I.G.’s stats. It was impossible to kill because they weren’t able to kill the user _and_ because its particular ability made it immortal. We don’t know exactly what would have happened if it hadn’t been able to regenerate indefinitely. 

I’m not exactly sure what’s happening in your link. The guy used his Stand’s power to exchange his life for his son’s? Where exactly is the Stand living on? Is it moving the leaves? If so, that seems… sorta… unimpressive.


----------



## Vivi Ornitier (Jan 27, 2016)

Silver Chariot can move its arms faster than the speed of light. Star Platinum's arm speed is on par with it as evident by the Anubis fight. If you can move your arms that much faster than the speed of light, that means you moved your arms in a nanosecond long timeframe. So why wouldn't Star Platinum or the World be able to move that arm back and extend their other arm in the same nanosecond-long timeframe? That's hardly a matter of unnecessary extraploration by any means, the panels show their arms moving within nanoseconds so theoretically they can perform combos in multipliers of that time, only issue is how long the combos are in terms of hit count

You could argue stamina but considering that they are ghostly beings who don't have stamina problems the same way a regular human would and they have been shown punching for "long" durations before (entire seconds even) and damage is shown accumulating (Sheer Heart Attack fight, and IIRC Jotaro rubbed a piece of wood lightly in frozen time and when he unfroze time the wood burned up out of nowhere due to the friction) I find Taco's calc believable



> But then again - the number of punches they throw are never suggested to be in billions/quadrillions.
> As a safe realistic "low end" I counted 178 ORAs in that one scan from Part 4, but I'd say it's safe to assume at least 200. That's Part 4 Jotaro, with 1-2 seconds timestops, where most of them were a second. Besides, he took some sweet time in talking to the bomb before starting beating it, so one second is fair.



Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is a manga, we don't see every single little motion like that. Obviously not every punch will be shown, or even every ora. The scenes where stand barrages are depicted tend to be inconsistent in portrayal. Often times there will be more punches demonstrated than oras


*Spoiler*: __ 









Then other times more oras/mudas than punches will be shown


*Spoiler*: __ 









So counting the punches/sound effects to determine the number of attacks thrown in a stand barrage in general is very flawed to say the least, they really don't say anything beyond "a lot of punches were thrown really fast"



> Another way of doing this is to scale them to Weather's Report feat, though I'm not too sure about that. Of course it would be perfect if we got some databook or some evidence as of how many punches they can throw, that would settle it. I'd imagine it's at least thousands in reality.



Scaling them straight to Weather Report destroying the Ozone Layer is a no go, saying their punches are that strong is basically tantamount to saying they are moon level with a full time freeze barrage. That said Pucci does say he's more afraid of Star Platinum than Weather Report for what it's worth, so I could easily see a time freeze stand barrage being as powerful as Tacocat calced it to be



> In any case it's enough to kill Kenshiro.



Thread should have been done here 

That said, I'm pretty sure that both Kenshiro and Jonathan are city level and hypersonic if we use the Phantom Blood anime and Jagi Gaiden, so Ken VS Johnny would be both a thematic _and_ fair match going by those incarnations


----------



## Fujita (Jan 28, 2016)

Vivi Ornitier said:


> Jojo's Bizarre Adventure is a manga, we don't see every single little motion like that. Obviously not every punch will be shown, or even every ora. The scenes where stand barrages are depicted tend to be inconsistent in portrayal. Often times there will be more punches demonstrated than oras
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



I’m starting to think that the sound effects don’t really mean anything 


*Spoiler*: __ 








unless you think Dio threw 13 knives  

Anyways, the punches we see aren’t the only _possible_ punches, but they’re the only punches you can say happened for certain without some other clue, like narration or what have you. There _could_ be billions of punches and the manga panels wouldn’t be incompatible with that, but the manga panels offer no evidence for such a thing. Speed alone doesn’t prove the ability to punch a given number of times, and the ability to throw billions of punches is the sort of thing that needs support. You can only get the panels to support that if you assume it’s possible in the first place, which is circular. Going off of duration is a more solid argument, but the characters will only punch billions of times in a given time frame if they can. If they can’t, then all the bloodlust arguments in the world aren’t really very useful. 

There are plenty of instances where characters don’t show “logical” abilities for them to have, like hypersonic characters with great stamina failing to cross huge distances even when their fights last long enough for them to hypothetically do so. Fiction tends to be irrational, which is a big reason to stick as closely as you can to the feats you can actually see, instead of the feats you think might be possible if you assume that different sorts of stats line up exactly the way they “ought” to. 

also, here’s something interesting, now that I'm taking a closer look at the Sheer Heart Attack feat 



Fujita said:


> This feat, right?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Star Platinum can’t scratch Sheer Heart Attack without the timestop, but the first hit inside the timestop does a fairly appreciable amount of damage

Not a barrage, not stacked damage, one single hit 

You’d think that a billion more hits would have ground it into dust or something


----------



## Iwandesu (Feb 2, 2016)

>except it was not implied nor shown
thats literally all you need to make a claim


----------



## SunRise (Feb 2, 2016)

*iwandesu*, yeah, but simultaneously this claim will contradict common sense and facts from the manga (IIRC) though


----------



## Fujita (Feb 2, 2016)

SunRise said:


> Except it was never implied or shown



 

feats

or

gtfo 



> We know that stands do not have stamina issues



apparently Stand users show stamina issues due to using their Stands, going by what other people have posted in this thread  



> (they are ghosts



and ghosts don't automatically have limitless power sources 

really what the hell kind of argument is this 



> and I am at the end of Part 4 and don't remember this happen or even implied)



we go by feats

unless it's explicitly mentioned that they have infinite stamina within the context of their universe, you can't assume they have no limits because there's no evidence for it apart from their limits not being taxed _by whatever they've done_

which is obviously not proof that their limits won't be taxed by doing something beyond the capabilities they've shown 



> and they don't follow human's punching pattern - they just move their arms back and forth (every single panel shows that).



why the fuck does this matter 

it still presumably costs energy whether they're using perfect boxing form or doing the macarena


----------



## Hachibi (Feb 2, 2016)

I feel like this thread is, by talking about damage in Timestop, indirectly talking about SHA's dura


----------



## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 2, 2016)

> apparently Stand users show stamina issues due to using their Stands, going by what other people have posted in this thread


I wouldn't disagree with that. Some special cases with stands being independent like Rolling Stone's bullshit so they don't get tired or someone's stand being a fucking ship so it shouldn't really ever be tired.
Though I don't know if the stamina issues even matter when the battle has to go on for ages for stands like Star platinum that eat up the user's faster than others to even take effect.


> Star Platinum can’t scratch Sheer Heart Attack without the timestop, but the first hit inside the timestop does a fairly appreciable amount of damage
> 
> Not a barrage, not stacked damage, one single hit


I noticed that too, it's possible that time stop allows one to pierce defenses completely or at least enough to damage. Taking the full energy of his punch from time stop as opposed to non-time stop. What is the energy from star platinum's punches calculated from?
If might need to be bumped up in time stop if it isn't from that.


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 2, 2016)

Just stopped by to remember that Koichi said that Jotaro used his time stop so he could " Hit SHA without it exploding ", so it also might have something to do do with the fact that while punching SHA Jotaro was afraid of going all out because it could explode . 

Just saiyan .


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## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 2, 2016)

It's earlier in this thread, really(The statement by Koichi) . I'm not saying it was proved, I'm saying it was implied by Koichi . Wait a little .

Edit: found it :



" That way you could fight without it exploding " . 

At leat what I personally got from this was " You were pulling your punches because it might explode in your face, but since it can't you can go all out " .


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 2, 2016)

I recall there being only one point Jotaro pulls his punch and it fucked everyone over because of it.
I certainly wouldn't use Koichi's word there as evidence.
Though it makes sense in that context of him doing more damage, you don't have to particularly hold back in a time stop or anticipate the enemies movements.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Feb 2, 2016)

I mean if you were punching something that might explode, you wouldn't go crazy all out as SP usually does . I'd keep my distance even in cqc .


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 2, 2016)

It's probably a bit of both actually.


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## SunRise (Feb 3, 2016)

*Fujita*, 





> feats
> 
> or
> 
> gtfo


You don't need feats for this kind of things.


> apparently Stand users show stamina issues due to using their Stands, going by what other people have posted in this thread


I don't remember that nor in this thread nor almoust to the end of Part 4. Mind link me?


> and ghosts don't automatically have limitless power sources
> 
> really what the hell kind of argument is this


It wasn't implied nor shown that they have stamina issues IIRC. You need to prove that they have stamina issues.


> we go by feats
> 
> unless it's explicitly mentioned that they have infinite stamina within the context of their universe, you can't assume they have no limits because there's no evidence for it apart from their limits not being taxed by whatever they've done
> 
> which is obviously not proof that their limits won't be taxed by doing something beyond the capabilities they've shown


Yes and they have enough feats to assume that they very well can thrown billions of punches. Again - stamina is not issue IIRC. Nobody says it's infinite - it's infinite for something that doesn't require anything - like punches, flying, etc - they can't use timestop without limitations - also user's own limitations like being bored, hungry, sleepy, etc.


> why the fuck does this matter
> 
> it still presumably *costs energy* whether they're using perfect boxing form or doing the macarena


It was one of the issues that could decrease number of punches. 

Do you have proofs for that? Because they kinda don't (how someone who doesn't match properties of something to get tired can get tired?) unless there is something I miss of course and I mean scans from manga. They don't have muscles, blood or anything to have problems with punching. Burden of proof is on you here.


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## Fujita (Feb 3, 2016)

SunRise said:


> *Fujita*,
> You don't need feats for this kind of things.



No.

You need feats for everything. 

They don't have to be visual feats, strictly, so a statement that a guy did something can also be worked with, but if there isn't a feat you're calcing fanfiction.  



> I don't remember that nor in this thread nor almoust to the end of Part 4. Mind link me?



Sure.



bitethedust said:


> If it helps, Stands have never seen or stated to be exhausted or tired after doing anything at all.
> And only a few Stand users have ever been tired at all, namely the timestop users and Diavolo, and Diavolo's ability was also stated in the same fight to be related to how Diavolo's stamina, not that of his Stand.



Seems to disprove the infinite stamina notion, though not the notion that they have quite a bit of stamina if they don't generally get tired. Still doesn't escape the problems I've mentioned. 



> It wasn't implied nor shown that they have stamina issues IIRC. You need to prove that they have stamina issues.



...uh, no. If a guy can throw 100 punches without getting tired, but we only ever see him throw 100 punches, him not getting tired isn't grounds for assuming that he can throw a billion punches without getting tired. Unless we have an explicit confirmation that his power source is large enough to accommodate a billion punches, you can't prove that he's capable of doing things he hasn't. In cases like these, burden of proof is on you to show that there is no limit, not on the other person. The no-limits fallacy is a valid objection even when a limit isn't explicitly stated. In fact, that's the whole point behind it. A character's capabilities are limited to what they'd done, even if everything they've done has been casual. Because burden of proof is always on the person claiming a character can do something. That's how evidence works.   



> It was one of the issues that could decrease number of punches.



 

Wait, that was a zenith argument wasn't it. I'm not making that argument, so let's move on. 



> Do you have proofs for that?



Proof that it takes energy to punch? 

They do damage by punching. Damage takes energy. Therefore, punching requires energy. Arguably just moving ought to take energy, but given that they're mental projections of some sort... eh... 



> Because they kinda don't (how someone who doesn't match properties of something to get tired can get tired?) unless there is something I miss of course and I mean scans from manga. They don't have muscles, blood or anything to have problems with punching. Burden of proof is on you here.



Why the fuck is everybody so hung up on "stamina" being physical stamina of the exact same type that fleshy beings have. I'm not claiming that Star Platinum is suddenly going to develop muscle cramps and stop punching because of it.

I don't have to prove that they have stamina problems just because they don't have blood vessels or whatever bullshit. A magic projection doesn't have unlimited capabilities just because it isn't biological. _You_ need to prove that it has the ability to do what you're saying it does. "It doesn't get tired doing something less impressive" isn't a proper argument. 

Look, the real question is whether the panels support throwing billions of punches or not. If they do, then stamina is a non-issue. The panels prove that they can do it. If they don't, then stamina is a legitimate reason to doubt that we should be inflating their destructive capacity by many orders of magnitude.


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## SunRise (Feb 5, 2016)

*Fujita*,

1. We knew that special abilities like time-stop require some sort of stamina from Part 3 already. It's nothing new. What I didn't seen yet is scans that suggests that stands can have stamina issues with walking or punching or doing other casual stuff.

2. Do not compare Stands to everything else in fiction. They are not cars that need gas and they are not humans who need to eat. They are ghosts made of spirit who was not seen tired. Nor it was stated that stands can get tired of casual activities such as flying, punchin, etc. Not seen tired is really important part. Because of that + fact that they are not supposed to have stamina issues (why ghost should have problems with flying around or punching?), makes them kinda special case. I don't remember similar cases in other fictions. Pretty sure ghosts from other fictions can do their stuff as long as they wish if they don't need any kind of source of power. And Stands don't need it. Stands are special case and people need to accept it. 

Also if they need energy for punching or whatever, where are they even get it to replenish their resorces?   They do not feed on user's energy or whatever for casual activities such as punching or flying around at least. Their ability to freely move around or punch was *never* under doubt in manga. One or billion should not matter in this case.

There is stand that can chase it's target at 60 km/h relentlessly. Does he have infinite energy for this? I think no - he just have insane range and do not need stamina being ghostly being.

3. It wasn't stated or shown but there should be contradictions or limitations to say that they can't and there is no - we should think it for ourself - literally pull it out of our ass. It should not be any degree of NLF here. It's not same as saying that Saitama can destroy Universe because he was doing everything casually or other bs NLF things. If we agree on their stamina being enough to punch through entire timestop, there is nothing that stops them from doing so as they have speed and timestop for that. 

It really comes down to *why* Stands even should have stamina for casual actions? Because otherwise they will have infinite energy? I don't really know how it should work either just as I don't know from where the fuck they should get their energy to begin with. Anyways punching for few seconds with constant speed should not be issue really. But I am myself buying and not buying it simultaneously. Because it was never shown or implied (neither FTL speeds though - we had to calc them) but simultaneously there is no contradictions to common sense and logic, if we accept ghosts as ghosts (i.e. settle stamina shenanigans),

Wanted to write short answer. ._. Sorry.


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## Fujita (Feb 5, 2016)

SunRise said:


> *Fujita*,
> 
> 1. We knew that special abilities like time-stop require some sort of stamina from Part 3 already. It's nothing new. What I didn't seen yet is scans that suggests that stands can have stamina issues with walking or punching or doing other casual stuff.



…if you have stamina issues with one thing, that proves that you have stamina concerns in general. 

Certainly, Stands have never had stamina problems with the punching we see on-screen. But that only proves that they don’t have stamina problems with that many punches, not that punches are a free lunch somehow. It doesn’t prove that they can punch more than we’ve seen them punch. The evidence isn’t there. 



> 2. Do not compare Stands to everything else in fiction. They are not cars that need gas and they are not humans who need to eat. They are ghosts made of spirit who was not seen tired. Nor it was stated that stands can get tired of casual activities such as flying, punchin, etc. Not seen tired is really important part. Because of that + fact that they are not supposed to have stamina issues (why ghost should have problems with flying around or punching?), makes them kinda special case. I don't remember similar cases in other fictions. Pretty sure ghosts from other fictions can do their stuff as long as they wish if they don't need any kind of source of power. And Stands don't need it. Stands are special case and people need to accept it.
> 
> Also if they need energy for punching or whatever, where are they even get it to replenish their resorces?   They do not feed on user's energy or whatever for casual activities such as punching or flying around at least. Their ability to freely move around or punch was *never* under doubt in manga. One or billion should not matter in this case.
> 
> There is stand that can chase it's target at 60 km/h relentlessly. Does he have infinite energy for this? I think no - he just have insane range and do not need stamina being ghostly being.



“Stands are magic bullshit” doesn’t exempt them from the same standards of evidence that apply to everything else. 



> 3. It wasn't stated or shown but there should be contradictions or limitations to say that they can't and there is no - we should think it for ourself - literally pull it out of our ass. It should not be any degree of NLF here. It's not same as saying that Saitama can destroy Universe because he was doing everything casually or other bs NLF things. If we agree on their stamina being enough to punch through entire timestop, there is nothing that stops them from doing so as they have speed and timestop for that.



Yes, there has to be a reasonable limit for NLF to apply. Not giving something an ability it hasn’t shown is a reasonable limit.  



> It really comes down to *why* Stands even should have stamina for casual actions? Because otherwise they will have infinite energy? I don't really know how it should work either just as I don't know from where the fuck they should get their energy to begin with.



If we don’t know where they get their energy, how can you claim to know that their energy source is large enough for them to punch billions of times? Ignorance isn’t an excuse to assume whatever we like. Kind of the opposite, actually. 



> Anyways punching for few seconds with constant speed should not be issue really. But I am myself buying and not buying it simultaneously. Because it was never shown or implied (neither FTL speeds though - we had to calc them) but simultaneously there is no contradictions to common sense and logic, if we accept ghosts as ghosts (i.e. settle stamina shenanigans),



Generally we assume that if a character is serious, they get scaled to their best feats. So, if we see Star Platinum, which has an FTL punching feat, punch for a few seconds, it’s reasonable to assume FTL punching. The problem with that is that this also assumes, without much basis in the manga, that Star Platinum can punch billions of times. The panels might be inconsistent with their speed, but that doesn’t justify fixing the inconsistency ourselves. And the thing is, if they don’t have the ability to punch a billion times, they simply aren’t going to do it… which justifies the inconsistency as much as resolving it by guessing that there are a ton more punches does.


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## Fujita (Feb 5, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> I noticed that too, it's possible that time stop allows one to pierce defenses completely or at least enough to damage. Taking the full energy of his punch from time stop as opposed to non-time stop.



Actually, Star Platinum manages to do some damage to the treads outside of the time stop 



bottom center panel

When Jotaro stops time, Star Platinum is able to actually pin Sheer Heart Attack between two fists, rather than just hitting it with no counter force (or having just the ground bracing Sheer Heart Attack against the punches). Now that it has as much leverage as it needs, it's able to inflict far worse damage with one hit



The wheels, treads, and whatever the fuck that thing on top is are the first things to break/break off from the main body. Sort of what you'd expect, given that they're the most mechanically vulnerable bits of Sheer Heart Attack. What Star Platinum does to the treads shows that it's clearly capable of breaking the material Sheer Heart Attack is made of itself, but the larger body is less fragile, given that it's a solid chunk of the material and not a slender part, and so it takes more of a beating. Star Platinum manages to dent it and mangle a few parts after whaling on it for a while. (Sheer Heart Attack is drawn a bit inconsistently, so it's kinda hard to figure out what's damage and what's Araki's art  ) 

At any rate, Star Platinum's ability to damage Sheer Heart Attack doesn't come from stacked damage. What's the evidence for the damage stacking thing to begin with? The Sheer Heart Attack feat shows that every individual punch does damage on its own, which isn't the same as one big attack equal to a bunch of punches happening simultaneously. Sure, it appears like simultaneous damage from the perspective of whoever got frozen in time, but it doesn't appear like that from the perspective of the person/Stand actually putting in the work. They have to do damage one punch at a time. 

Even aside from the question of how many punches there are, I don't see why you can multiply by the number of punches to increase their destructive capacity when the ability doesn't seem to work like that.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 5, 2016)

> Actually, Star Platinum manages to do some damage to the treads outside of the time stop


He certainly wasn't scared there, that's for sure.


Fujita said:


> Even aside from the question of how many punches there are, I don't see why you can multiply by the number of punches to increase their destructive capacity when the ability doesn't seem to work like that.


It stops time, while it's true leverage would be given when you do that certain things seem unmovable in time stops before imparting energy and even after.

*Spoiler*: __ 



[YOUTUBE]PXHZ0TQDepA[/YOUTUBE]
[YOUTUBE]jGW7WvL7LHk[/YOUTUBE]



The rules are a bit sketchy and would probably require a closer look overall of them, certainly redefines jojo here though.


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## Fujita (Feb 5, 2016)

It seems like the time stop users can move around anything they touch, like normal 

but some things seem to stop moving some arbitrary amount of time after they stop touching them, like the knife and Kakyoin's blood  

Stopping time would be a relatively useless power if you literally froze everything in place... I mean, you couldn't even move through the air  They can still move things, but those things can only be influenced by them. Things still seem to have whatever "passive" qualities they had beforehand, though. Dio can't get through Joseph's hamon, presumably because if he touched it, he would let it do what it generally does to vampires.


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## Unlosing Ranger (Feb 5, 2016)

Fujita said:


> Things still seem to have whatever "passive" qualities they had beforehand, though. Dio can't get through Joseph's hamon, presumably because if he touched it, he would let it do what it generally does to vampires.


Yeah, a form of energy that should have stopped when he isn't breathing in timestop.
That's quite odd.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Feb 5, 2016)

all timestop users seem to have a very thin, pretty much skintight, bubble of normal time around themselves


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## Fujita (Feb 5, 2016)

Unlosing Ranger said:


> Yeah, a form of energy that should have stopped when he isn't breathing in timestop.
> That's quite odd.



It got frozen along with Joseph's breathing, so it wouldn't even be able to stop, would it. I mean, it takes time to vanish and all that. And if Dio touched it, he'd basically resume time for it and get injured? The entire thing is weird to think about. 



Nighty said:


> all timestop users seem to have a very thin, pretty much skintight, bubble of normal time around themselves



yep 

while time is stopped for everything else, timestop users have their own little personal time going on 

which is why somebody could take damage over what's really two seconds or something, but would perceive it as instantaneous because the rest of them was completely frozen while it was happening


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## SunRise (Feb 6, 2016)

*Fujita*, you ignore whole point of Stands everyone tells you about with this non-existent stamina thing.

About timestop damage. SHA already took beating against the floor and with timestop it took much more damage.


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## Fujita (Feb 6, 2016)

SunRise said:


> About timestop damage. SHA already took beating against the floor and with timestop it took much more damage.



do u not read 



Fujita said:


> Star Platinum can?t scratch Sheer Heart Attack without the timestop, but the *first hit* inside the timestop does a fairly appreciable amount of damage
> 
> Not a barrage, not stacked damage, one single hit
> 
> You?d think that a billion more hits would have ground it into dust or something





Fujita said:


> Actually, *Star Platinum manages to do some damage to the treads outside of the time stop *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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