# [Spoilers 641] Tobirama vs. Itachi



## Kai (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama really shined this chapter and took a leadership role, enough of an existence in the manga where we should be able to discuss on the level of feats. 

Location: Alliance vs. Final Villains
Distance: 30 meters
Knowledge: Itachi and Tobirama have basic knowledge on each other's jutsu, but don't know each other's strategies with those jutsu.
Restrictions: None

Will it be the 2nd Hokage or the child prodigy of the Uchiha that takes it?


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## Yagura (Jul 31, 2013)

The chances of Itachi getting tagged here are practically non-existent. Tobirama can't exactly play keep away either, as he doesn't have a quick and effective way of spreading around tags like Minato with his marked kunai.  
As for Gojo Kibaku, that was designed to be used with Edo Tensei and would be suicide otherwise. 


So yeah, not really seeing how Itachi can lose here. He should win quite handily.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2013)

Itachi takes this low difficulty.

Tobirama has shown decent supportive feats with Hirashin, but his Hirashin is still inferior to Minato's, given it lacks mobility(kunais). 

He'd probably try a close quarter engagement to tag Itachi and get flash ripped apart by ribcage susano'o hand, If Itachi doesn't just pin him down with genjutsu/blitz combo.


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## Jagger (Jul 31, 2013)

Come on, Itachi still wins. We don't know the limits or the rage of Tobirama's Hiraishin, the combo they performed was something he only did with Minato.


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## Edward Nygma (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Itachi still wins.

On another note, I don't see why people don't think Tobirama can spread tags easily. I mean, sure he doesn't have pre tagged kunai, but what is stopping him from tagging the kunai he does have?

Also, his explosive tag jutsu isn't out of the question either, since he could just use a KB.

In the end though, I think Itachi will take this more times than not, though I don't think it is a complete stomp either way.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 31, 2013)

I'm surprised so many people are still vouching for Itachi after the latest chapter. Old habits die harder than I thought, I guess.

That said, I don't buy that Tobirama can't spread his Hiraishin range using throwing weapons; he can attach seals to surfaces with his chakra just like Minato can, so he should be able to just, like...pick up a decent-sized rock and throw it with the seal attached.

We've at least seen that his speed is comparable to Minato's (not using Hiraishin or Shunshin), though his reaction time isn't as good as Hashirama's; that's significant. So we can say without a doubt (although we had every reason to believe it before) that he's got speed comparable to Itachi's, with possibly inferior reaction time (due to Sharingan).

We could still use some more info on his Edo Tensei capabilities, which could actually make a big difference here; unlike other Edo Tensei users, Tobirama seems extremely competent AND possesses a Jutsu (Hiraishin) that can let him evade personal attacks. He's experienced fighting the Uchiha, so he has SOME sense of the threat their Genjutsu poses. And, if I'm understanding Minato's "Shakuton: Kourin Shippuu blah blah" Jutsu correctly as the thing he and Tobirama used together, that means T-dawg should be capable of switching places with anything/anyone he tags. If he can use that Goujou Kibakufuda thing and then swap out with his opponent, that's game over for like 99.99% of the Narutoverse. Even Itachi wouldn't be able to react to that, most likely (unless I'm underestimating him again).

Tobirama also probably has greater stamina than Itachi, like...every other high/top tier shinobi. And he can use clones that can use Hiraishin.

This match is closer than ever, but I think Tobirama's weakpoint (compared to Minato, a fellow Hiraishin user) is his reaction time. He has essentially the same ability as Minato, but he's not equipped with the same number of seals already on paper (like Minato is) and he isn't as quick; it's more likely Itachi will be able to hit him, either with a Genjutsu or with an attack from a blind spot after a clone feint. The limited offense Tobirama has displayed and his disposition also make him extremely vulnerable to Izanami.

I still think Itachi wins more often than not, but Tobirama has already pretty well lived up to my expectations that he could give Itachi a run for his money.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

The Itachi wanking needs to stop. The idea that Itachi wins with low-mid difficulty is ridiculous. Tobirama has displayed a counter to every single one of Itachi's Jutsu.


Suitons > Katons
Chakra Sensing Counters Sharingan Genjutsu
Tobirama has clones to counter Itachi's clones
FTG + Chakra Sensing Counter Amaterasu
FTG Counters Susano'o

Tobirama also:


Tobirama Speed > Itachi's
Tobirama Strength > Itachi's
Tobirama's Stamina > Itachi's
Tobirama's Ninjutsu > Itachi's
Tobirama's Intelligence/knowleedge are at least Equivalent to Itachi's

The only area's Itachi may be better than Tobirama at besides Genjutsu are Hand-seals and Taijutsu, but even than Taijutsu is extremely doubtful.

People are saying he can't spread FTG Markers around as quickly as Minato, which is true, but it's not like it will take him a long time to create a KB he can teleport to and than him and the KB start marking various strategic locations. It's also not like Itachi is fast enough where he can blitz Tobirama if he takes somewhat longer to spread FTG makers than an absolute speed beast like Minato.

On the flip-side of this Itachi has not shown confirmed counters to all of Tobirama's Jutsu. 


He hasn't demonstrated the ability to react to FTG or Hiraishingiri, especially LV 2
Susano'o hasn't demonstrated the ability to tank Gofuki Explosive Tags
He hasn't demonstrated the ability to defend against Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu

People say Gofuki is a suicide technique but it really isn't. A KB or an Edo Tensei can use it with zero danger and even Tobirama can use it with FTG if he's careful enough w/o dying.

Anyway the only thing that may be able to defend against these abilities is Susano'o, but Susano'o can be teleported away with FTG so even than it's not a perfect defense. Ultimately it than comes down to if Tobirama can get a FTG marker or KB close enough to Itachi to warp Susano'o away and deploy his attack.

Than Edo Tensei adds another interesting aspect to his match up. Having multiple Tensei Tobirama can tag with FTG Markers and can deploy Gofuki Explosive Tags, that Itachi needs Stage 4 Susano'o with Totsuka Sword to seal, are always going to add a much greater degree of difficulty to the match, no matter what Tensei Tobirama summons. 

However depending on how strong the Tensei are and what abilities they have they could be even more troublesome for Itachi than that, especially since Tobirama can use FTG to create combo attacks with them allowing them to deploy their Jutsu at a much faster rate than they normally could. But this part is totally speculation until we get some confirmation on what type of Tensei he summoned or the OP stipulates who he can summon.

So Tobirama even w/o Edo Tensei can beat Itachi and if Itachi did manage to pull out a win there is no way it's with anything short of extremely high difficulty. With Edo Tensei I give Tobirama by far the better chances of winning.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Jul 31, 2013)

I agree with Niku, this match is closer than ever. It is unbelievable how closer to power Tobirama and Itachi actually is, even I can't call it. Minato vs Itachi threads lasting over 14 page is a joke. 

Tobirama counters amaterasu with Sensing + Hirashin, counters genjutsu with Kage Bunshin (That he uses regularly), counters Susano with Edo Tensei. So far Tobirama is the perfect counter to Itachi. His experience of fighting Uchiha's gives him the knowledge to fight genjutsu user this tells me he won't get caught in Tsukiyomi. 

That being said, Itachi is too skilled and fast enough to react to Tobirama's jutsus.

I have no doubt, with more incoming panel time he will be stronger than Itachi. Right now, I can't call it, it can go either way.


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## Yagura (Jul 31, 2013)

*@Nikushimi * I'm pretty sure that Shakuton-whatever requires two people to use Hiraishin simultaneously, so he shouldn't be able to use it on just anything he tags.


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## Axiom (Jul 31, 2013)

Yagura said:


> *@Nikushimi * I'm pretty sure that Shakuton-whatever requires two people to use Hiraishin simultaneously, so he shouldn't be able to use it on just anything he tags.



All he would need to do is create a KB and it's the same effect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The Itachi wanking needs to stop.


If thats the case, then I'll have the right to ask you to stop wanking to Tobirama 




> Suitons > Katons




Itachi has suitons as well.
Not that Itachi's victory would be reliant on Katons anyways.



> [*]Chakra Sensing Counters Sharingan Genjutsu


Oh yeah, Tobirama can fight eyes closed 




> [*]Tobirama has clones to counter Itachi's clones


Itachi pulls them out alot faster and Itachi has exploding bunshins and karasu bunshins.
So he has the clear upperhand.



> [*]FTG + Chakra Sensing Counter Amaterasu


How ? 
There is absolutely no reason to believe that Tobirama has reactions to pull that off. 
And he needs preset tags somewhere to escape Amaterasu.



> [*]FTG Counters Susano'o



Same as above.




> Tobirama Speed > Itachi's





 no.




> [*]Tobirama Strength > Itachi's


debatable. 
I forgot if this guy had stats though.



> [*]Tobirama's Stamina > Itachi's


Most likely.



> [*]Tobirama's Ninjutsu > Itachi's


Wut ? No.
Amaterasu & susano'o > anything in Tobi's arsenal, including inferior Edo tensei and Hirashin.



> [*]Tobirama's Intelligence/knowleedge are at least Equivalent to Itachi's



Knowledge maybe, Intelligence no.
Not every smart character is as intelligent as Itachi.
Thats like saying every physically strong character is as strong as Tsunade.



> People are saying he can't spread FTG Markers around as quickly as Minato, which is true, but it's not like it will take him a long time to create a KB he can teleport to and than him and the KB start marking various strategic locations.


Which is sorta like prep and goes with the assumption that his opponent will give him the opportunity to do that.





> He hasn't demonstrated the ability to react to FTG or Hiraishingiri, especially LV 2




Reacting to Lightning would suffice.



> [*]Susano'o hasn't demonstrated the ability to tank Gofuki Explosive Tags



Kirin is most definitely 1000x stronger than those fodder tags.




> [*]He hasn't demonstrated the ability to defend against Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu



What the hell is that ? 

The jutsu he used in conjunction with Minato ?



> People say Gofuki is a suicide technique but it really isn't. A KB or an Edo Tensei can use it with zero danger and even Tobirama can use it with FTG if he's careful enough w/o dying.
> 
> Anyway the only thing that may be able to defend against these abilities is Susano'o, but Susano'o can be teleported away with FTG so even than it's not a perfect defense. Ultimately it than comes down to if Tobirama can get a FTG marker or KB close enough to Itachi to warp Susano'o away and deploy his attack.
> 
> ...




Nearly all of your strategies for Tobirama involve Itachi not doing anything while Tobirama "prepares" some shit. I don't get the deal with that.

Itachi not only is a smarter guy with better insight than Tobirama, he is also faster and is a proactive fighter. 

Tobirama will be hard pressed from the moment match begins, he won't be able to sit back and set things up as easily as you say.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> [*]FTG + Chakra Sensing Counter Amaterasu



The thing about sensing Amaterasu is, Tobirama kinda has to be doing it in advance. He didn't notice in the latest chapter when Sasuke did it because he wasn't looking out for it. Without proper intel on Itachi, and while probably avoiding eye-contact, he's probably going to be hit with Amaterasu.

Although he can just teleport out of it, probably.



> Tobirama Speed > Itachi's
> Tobirama Strength > Itachi's
> Tobirama's Ninjutsu > Itachi's



I don't see anything in the manga to support any of these claims; Tobirama has not displayed speed or strength Itachi couldn't believably replicate and he is pretty far from showing a Ninjutsu that trumps Amaterasu or Susano'o.



> On the flip-side of this Itachi has not shown confirmed counters to all of Tobirama's Jutsu.
> 
> He hasn't demonstrated the ability to react to FTG or Hiraishingiri, especially LV 2



Sasuke protected Naruto with Susano'o before T-dawg's Bunshin grabbed that mini-Bijuudama and teleported out. Itachi protected Sasuke with Susano'o before Sasuke could protect himself.



> Susano'o hasn't demonstrated the ability to tank Gofuki Explosive Tags



Are you kidding me? An attack of that level would do absolutely nothing to Susano'o.



> He hasn't demonstrated the ability to defend against Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu



Tobirama would have to be making physical contact with him in order for that to work, which is extremely unlikely (and if he can do that, he may as well just stab Itachi). Also, the Jutsu is useless unless T-rama can force him into a position where he takes an attack that is already on the destination tag, which will be difficult for Tobirama to do by himself (he admitted this, more or less).



> Anyway the only thing that may be able to defend against these abilities is Susano'o, but Susano'o can be teleported away with FTG so even than it's not a perfect defense.



Has Tobirama shown the ability to do that or are you extrapolating from Minato?



> Ultimately it than comes down to if Tobirama can get a FTG marker or KB close enough to Itachi to warp Susano'o away and deploy his attack.
> 
> Than Edo Tensei adds another interesting aspect to his match up. Having multiple Tensei Tobirama can tag with FTG Markers and can deploy Gofuki Explosive Tags, that Itachi needs Stage 4 Susano'o with Totsuka Sword to seal, are always going to add a much greater degree of difficulty to the match, no matter what Tensei Tobirama summons.
> 
> ...



You forget that something as simple as Tsukuyomi can end this fight in a heartbeat if Itachi lands it.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 31, 2013)

Yagura said:


> *@Nikushimi * I'm pretty sure that Shakuton-whatever requires two people to use Hiraishin simultaneously, so he shouldn't be able to use it on just anything he tags.



It can be used with Kage Bunshin, apparently, although Tobirama stated that it's slower (somehow; may need to wait for a better translation).


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> The thing about sensing Amaterasu is, Tobirama kinda has to be doing it in advance. He didn't notice in the latest chapter when Sasuke did it because he wasn't looking out for it. Without proper intel on Itachi, and while probably avoiding eye-contact, he's probably going to be hit with Amaterasu.
> .


Tobirama wasn't proactively using Sensing on Sasuke because why would he spend time & energy sensing someone whose on his team. So yeah if Tobirama thinks Itachi is his ally and than Itachi suddenly uses Amaterasu on him, he might not sense it coming, but that's a completely inapplicable scenario. In an actual 1v1 battle there is no reason why Tobirama wouldn't be using sensing on his opponent to predict their movements at all times, it's just common sense.



> Although he can just teleport out of it, probably.


Than there is this, which completely counters Amaterasu even if it lands.



> I don't see anything in the manga to support any of these claims; Tobirama has not displayed speed or strength Itachi couldn't believably replicate and he is pretty far from showing a Ninjutsu that trumps Amaterasu or Susano'o.


Tobirama reacted to Juubiobito, which resulted in the sentient god of speed in this manga hyping him for his speed. Tobirama reacting to Obito's bomb right when it's about to explode also exceeds any speed feat Itachi has. Than Tobirama also has FTG and Kishi also seems to think Tobirama's Shunshin is quite fast otherwise it wouldn't have been a big deal that Minato's Shunshin was faster than his. Itachi on the other hand does not have speed feats that match these, nor has ever been hyped for his movement speed (hand-seal speed is measured in a different category) like Tobirama hase been.

As for strength Tobirama crack a solid stone wall by just resting his hand on it, indicating great physical strength. Than we have this chapter which from how I saw things Minatgo even with KCM improvement was having his hand forced back by the shockwave of the exploding Bomb, but Tobirama casually pushed his hand through it as if it was nothing. And even if you read the latter feat differently than I do, the former feat still differentiates him from Itachi in the physical strength department.  Plus the guy is a Senju who are all about strength of the body, while Itachi just has slightly above average strength according to the DB.

As for Ninjutsu, Tobirama can not just use some of the best techniques in the manga, but also invented them; Edo Tensei,  Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu, Hiraishingiri, Gofuki Explosive Tags, & Hiraishin. He has also displayed higher level natural alteration than Itachi even with his gimped Part I Edo self, being able to use such high level suitons w/o a water source. All of that combined is certainly shows better proficiency with Ninjutsu than Itachi's two MS techniques which require essentially no actual ninjutsu skill to master just  or 

But even if we talk in terms of how good the techniques are and not how proficient they are in Ninjutsu itself, which is what I was referring to, certainly all of those high class Jutsu combined are going to be more useful than Amaterasu and Susano'o. Heck we saw how Hiraishin Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu was more useful than Amaterasu this very chapter and that's just one of those Jutsu. 



> Sasuke protected Naruto with Susano'o before T-dawg's Bunshin grabbed that mini-Bijuudama and teleported out.


But Tobirama did not use FTG until after he grabbed the Bomb, so at best you showed Sasuke can react to Tobirama's Shunshin at worst all you showed is Sasuke can react to Tobirama's foot speed.



> Are you kidding me? An attack of that level would do absolutely nothing to Susano'o.


An attack of that level? You make it sound like something small and insignificant when in reality it was an absolutely massive explosion that dwarfed a boss summon, was as large as most Bijuu Bombs, and was filled with constant successive attacks. Take a second look:
 stick that ball to Minato and he teleported with it

It's also an incredibly fast technique, so we don't know what level of Susano'o Itachi could conjure up before the blast went off.



> Tobirama would have to be making physical contact with him in order for that to work, which is extremely unlikely (and if he can do that, he may as well just stab Itachi).


No he wouldn't have to be making physical contact, that's only one way to deploy FTG. FTG as we learned can also be deployed when the users chakra is touching something. So all Tobirama would have to do is get a FTG Marker close enough to Itachi, where the chakra stored within is touching him. Also it's a-lot easier to physically touch someone than it is to landing a killing stab with a Kuni. Tobirama finger could brush Itachi's hair and that's all that he needs to teleport him.



> Also, the Jutsu is useless unless T-rama can force him into a position where he takes an attack


Which is easily set up with clones. Than all he needs to do is touch Itachi and he is instantly transported into his clones attack.



> (he admitted this, more or less).


He admitted this would be difficult against the Obito the Juubi Jinchuuriki. You guys need to stop applying the difficulty Juubi Jinchuuriki gives guys like Minato and Tobirama to anyone who is not the Juubi Jinchuuriki, because the difference in Obito's ability right now and everyone else not named Rikudo Sannin is absolutely massive.



> Has Tobirama shown the ability to do that or are you extrapolating from Minato?


Tobirama has shown the ability to do that because he commands FTG, which is the same Jutsu as Minato. But Tobirama also showed this chapter the ability to teleport chakra constructs as he teleported Obito's Bijuu Bomb this chapter.



> You forget that something as simple as Tsukuyomi can end this fight in a heartbeat if Itachi lands it.


Itachi landing Tsukuyomi on Tobirama is next to impossible. Tobirama can proactively avoid eye contact while relying on Chakra Sensing, this means Itachi would have to force eye contact for long enough to cast Tsukuyomi, which with Tobirama's speed, FTG, and KB, is just downright not very plausible. With Edo Tensei it's even worse since he'll have to concentrate on many targets at once.

Though anyway I never said Itachi had no chance to win were zero, I just don't think he'd be doing it w/o extreme difficulty and with Edo Tensei added in I give Tobirama better odds, though how much better depends on how good the Tensei were aside from FTG Combo potential and Gofuki, which we don't know.


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## Ennoia (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama was able to grab Obito's black ball before Minato could and he was not on the panel last we saw, I think thats a decent speed feat.


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## Rain (Jul 31, 2013)

Its still too early.

Itachi still has the edge simply because of his armada of one-hit-kill jutsus.


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## Darth Xanatos (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama knows Itachi is an Uchiha and he`s a sensor so he can just shut his eyes so he won`t get genjutsued.

First he will shunshin away. Then he will place teleporting tags at multiple different positions in order to avoid contact with Itachi as long as possible.  Then he will summon a   few edo tenseis, let`s assume they are genin level, it doesen`t really matter cause all Tobirama needs are masses of exploding tags. Itachi will be unable to catch Tobirama while he will be forced to constantly use Susanoo in order to avoid being killed by the explosion tags. Once Itachi is exhausted, it`s game over.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> But Tobirama also showed this chapter the ability to teleport chakra constructs as he teleported Obito's Bijuu Bomb this chapter.



Susano'o generates outwards from Itachi so he can't warp Susano'o _away_ from Itachi. They are in contact.


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## Hamaru (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama is like the anti-uchiha, with the only one he hasn't beaten, his brother has. I'd pick him to win this fight any day of the week. Obito just proved that if you are a sensor, you should be able to tell when chakra is being stored in the eye for an attack, which Tobirama should know considering he fought against Uchiha for most of his life. That would make Itachi's MS jutsu extremely hard to land. 

Moreover, Tobirama should have faster movement speed, his Edo tactics, suiton jutsu, and should be equally as smart, if not smarter than Itachi. The only thing that I would need more proof of is Tobirama's ability to deal with Itachi's Susanoo.


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## joshhookway (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama easily wins mid difficulty without Edo Tensei.

If Tobirama tags Itachi, he can blow the fuck out of him. Itachi is much slower than Tobirama.


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## Hamaru (Jul 31, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I love your signature, Hamaru. I was about to troll, but then I stupided.



Thank you, I put work into coming up with a good sig....probably more than I should


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I love your signature, Hamaru. I was about to troll, but then I stupided.



I gotta say....I agree. 

Le siiiigh. 

Lesbo creep.


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## KnightGhost (Jul 31, 2013)

LOL turrin thinks any char wit new feats can bet Itachi nothing new.

As far as the thread i saw this coming.

Itachi wins but im not sure with what lvl of diff tho.

Ama is uselss here i think Tobirama's Senseing+ FTG  means he probably will dodge every time.

Itachi can counter any Edo with ST and YM will counter any Water justu.

But Tsukuyomi ultimately will end him Tobirama might have massive exp in fightering sharingan but in the end this could work against him since Tsukuyomi is miles upon miles upon miles so far above any eye genjustu or genjustu period that he as ever faced its not even funny.

I think hes in the same tier but Tobirama can't beat Itachi.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Susano'o generates outwards from Itachi so he can't warp Susano'o _away_ from Itachi. They are in contact.



A Susano'o user can be separated from Susano'o we saw that with Gaara. Minato and Tobirama can selectively teleport whatever is physically touching them or their chakra. That's the reason why they don't teleport the earth under their feat every time they use FTG, the air, and why they can select to teleport just one object touching their FTG markings such as when Minato teleports Bijuu bombs.

We also saw Minato teleport Sasuke out of Susano'o with FTG last chapter.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Turrin said:


> A Susano'o user can be separated from Susano'o we saw that with Gaara. Minato and Tobirama can selectively teleport whatever is physically touching them or their chakra. That's the reason why they don't teleport the earth under their feat every time they use FTG, the air, and why they can select to teleport just one object touching their FTG markings such as when Minato teleports Bijuu bombs.
> 
> We also saw Minato teleport Sasuke out of Susano'o with FTG last chapter.



We've seen the caster of Susano'o be separated from it, but there were other factors in play.

With Gaara, Susano'o had to be forcibly held down so it couldn't keep up with Madara being ripped out. With Minato, he selects how large a dimensional space he chooses to open to send whatever object through. It's how he can teleport even Gamakichi when he is contact with him. He opened the dimensional space large enough to take Sasuke but not anything extending out from him. If Tobirama could make direct contact with Sasuke, or have a mark on him, yes, he could warp him out from Susano'o because he could create a dimensional space that wasn't large enough to accommodate Susano'o. Of course he can't make direct contact with Sasuke if Susano'o is active which is the problem. 

(Also, Minato teleports Bijuudama not by having them touch his markings, but by setting up a barrier. Once they make contact with the barrier (aka, his chakra), he uses Hiraishin to send it away. It's a totally different principle. There has also never been any objects in contact with Jikukan Kekkai except the Bijuudama he is warping except air. )

And the notion that he has unlimited selective power because of the examples of the air and earth is rather odd, since the air and earth are always ignored in space time ninjutsu. Obito's phasing is automatic once he starts using Kamui for that purpose. But that doesn't mean he phases through the earth automatically (he has to actively choose to do so) or phase through the air or light or sound (so he couldn't hear or see). These kind of things are ignored in Kishi logic as a general rule. Plus, even if this was self selective for a Hirashin user, does this mean a Hirashin user could....touch the ground of Konoha and choose to teleport half the houses and leave the other half? It's an exaggerated example since I doubt either Tobirama or Minato could teleport all of Konoha but Minato managed Kurama so clearly there is no clear size limit. 

If he could teleport a thing he is touching and start leaving parts out like that, do you realize that he could, for instance, teleport just Itachis head and kill him instantly? Why stop with warping Susano'o by touching it? Why not Susano'o and his head? I mean, space time jutsu can in principle do this as seen with Kakashi's Kamui. You are pretty much inventing a whole new application of Hiraishin on the spot. This isn't like anything he has ever done before.


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## Quab (Jul 31, 2013)

This would be a tough fight, but I would definitely still put Itachi ahead of Tobirama.  Unless Tobirama gets a massive power increase or a greater intelligence feat than Itachi, then I'd vote otherwise.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2013)

Quab said:


> This would be a tough fight, but I would definitely still put Itachi ahead of Tobirama.  Unless Tobirama gets a massive power increase or a greater intelligence feat than Itachi, then I'd vote otherwise.


Before this chapter, Tobirama already had a feat of defeating a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal. He also can use his Gojō Kibaku Fuda with a clone or place them himself, summoning them right onto Itachi's body before he can react since Tobirama placed all five tags + a Hiraishin tag on Obito, the fastest/second fastest character in the entire series without Obito noticing. He can use his Hiraishin Gōshun Mawashi no Jutsu to switch out with a clone and get Itachi stabbed on one of Tobirama's swords. Kishimoto also has hyped Tobirama's speed up, and his Suitons counter Itachi's Katons with ease.

Sorry, Itachi has been left in the dust. He's beaten in sheer strength, ninjutsu, speed, and taijutsu. Genjutsu is a non factor because of Tobirama's sensory abilities. 

Itachi should STOP being put on this 'unbeatable' pedestal. He's not winning against Tobirama, he isn't even on the same fucking tier from Tobirama's feats.


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## Jinemba (Jul 31, 2013)

Tobirama wins.

None of Itachi's ninjutsu can compete with someone who can use suiton on a grander scale than Kisame and with more skill. Genjutsu would help Itachi but he is fighting a Hiraishin user here so it would be extremely difficult to land genjutsu on him. Tobirama also has Edo Tensei on his side and no doubt his brother's DNA somewhere and also Tobirama is the best or tied for best senser in the manga.

Keep in mind Tobirama can use suiton strong enough to pressure susanoo and on top of that he can create rivers out of thin air. All he needs to do is use a best suiton user in history type technique and pressure susanoo from all sides, and Hiraishin when he gets an opening.


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## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2013)

Jinemba said:


> Tobirama wins.
> 
> None of Itachi's ninjutsu can compete with someone who can use suiton on a grander scale than Kisame and with more skill.



Where was this said?​


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Genjutsu is a non factor because of Tobirama's sensory abilities.



C says differently. And the normal sensing technique is no substitute for sight accoding to Jiriaya. Tobirama also has no knowledge of Itachi, so he'd look at his eyes anyway.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Dafuq? Tobirama's Suiton are greater than Kisame's? Since when?

He has Suiryuudan and Suijenhiki. Now, sure, at his full power, he can probably use Suiton at Mei's level (they were beneath that when Orochimaru resurrected him in Part I), but Kisame is on another level beyond that.


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## Jagger (Jul 31, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Tobirama was able to grab Obito's black ball before Minato could and he was not on the panel last we saw, I think thats a decent speed feat.


Tobirama most likely jumped the same moment Minato was surprised about the jutsu, I'd say they both arguably have the same FTG speed. The factor that put Tobirama over Minato was the fact he just lost an arm and he was caught off-guard by Obito's black ball.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Before this chapter, Tobirama already had a feat of defeating a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal.


This argument brings too many assumptions to the table to even be used.


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## joshhookway (Jul 31, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Dafuq? Tobirama's Suiton are greater than Kisame's? Since when?
> 
> He has Suiryuudan and Suijenhiki. Now, sure, at his full power, he can probably use Suiton at Mei's level (they were beneath that when Orochimaru resurrected him in Part I), but Kisame is on another level beyond that.



Tobirama was said to have the strongest suiton.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Jul 31, 2013)

Madara was placed on a pedestal above Izuna when they were first discussed and Madara is to Izuna as Hasharima is to Tobirama.





joshhookway said:


> Tobirama was said to have the strongest suiton.



Source for this.


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## Ennoia (Jul 31, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Tobirama most likely jumped the same moment Minato was surprised about the jutsu, I'd say they both arguably have the same FTG speed. The factor that put Tobirama over Minato was the fact he just lost an arm and he was caught off-guard by Obito's black ball.



I dont believe he had anyone tagged at that moment, we know he tagged Minato after that situation and I dont think he was interacting with Naruto or Sasuke to have tagged them. We know he didnt jump the same moment Minato was suprised because he realized it the previous chapter then the next chapter we see Tobirama is nowhere in sight and Minato reaches for it then Tobirama grabs it. Tobirama had to have gotten there with pure speed (as no one was tagged) and grabbed it before Minato could move his arm. If im getting this right it implies that Tobirama is faster than Minato or at least has faster reactions. I dont think the loss of his arm matters much because most edo dont even show pain and Minato kind of shrugged it off and said it was no problem.


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## Turrin (Jul 31, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> We've seen the caster of Susano'o be separated from it, but there were other factors in play.
> 
> With Gaara, Susano'o had to be forcibly held down so it couldn't keep up with Madara being ripped out. With Minato, he selects how large a dimensional space he chooses to open to send whatever object through. It's how he can teleport even Gamakichi when he is contact with him. He opened the dimensional space large enough to take Sasuke but not anything extending out from him.


Where is this ever stated to be the mechanic for FTG? 

The only things were told about FTG's mechanics is that it's similar to Kuchiyose. Kuchiyose is all about selectively teleporting something specific to you. It does not create a wormhole of sorts that teleports everything within it's radius. 

Also the idea of the wormhole just plain does not make sense, since Obito had is hand touching both Naruto and Sasuke's faces. There is no way Minato could make a wormhole of sorts precise enough to encompass Naruto and Sasuke but not take with it part of Obito's hands or leave behind part of Sasuke and Naruto's faces. And if for some logic defying reason he could shape his dimensional space that perfectly than he certainly could make one that encompasses only Sasuke or only Susano'o, thus once again arriving at the same result as before.

Another instance of selectivity is shown at the end of this chapter where Minato teleports and leaves the Fuuton Amaterasu Shuriken behind despite it touching him, which again would hardly be possible if he's opening specifically sized dimensional spaces. Rather he is moving specific things into subspace (as DB III describes space-time Jutsu as movement into subspace)



> (Also, Minato teleports Bijuudama not by having them touch his markings, but by setting up a barrier. Once they make contact with the barrier (aka, his chakra), he uses Hiraishin to send it away. It's a totally different principle. There has also never been any objects in contact with Jikukan Kekkai except the Bijuudama he is warping except air. )


Not true he can do both. In Chapter 630 he did not set up any kind of barrier to teleport Juubi's Bijuu Bomb, he simply regular FTG teleported it away:
chapter

Like wise in chapter 631 we see Minato teleporting Hiruzen and Tobirama to a FTG kuni w/o having to move their himself and w/o using a space time barrier. All he had to do is have his chakra touching them and he could teleport them to any FTG Marker he designated:
 chapter
chapter

In this chapter we another demonstrations of that, when Tobirama's clone teleports Obito's bomb just by touching it.

So all any attacks needs to be is just touching Minato's chakra or body to be teleported. The purpose of the barrier is by putting up a barrier infused with his chakra infront of him he's expand the range of what his chakra can touch, thus allowing him to teleport things that typically his chakra would not reach. As was illustrated against Kyuubi's Bijuu Bomb here:
chapter

 At least that makes thee most sense for why he'd use the barrier to me.



> And the notion that he has unlimited selective power because of the examples of the air and earth is rather odd, since the air and earth are always ignored in space time ninjutsu. Obito's phasing is automatic once he starts using Kamui for that purpose. But that doesn't mean he phases through the earth automatically (he has to actively choose to do so) or phase through the air or light or sound (so he couldn't hear or see). These kind of things are ignored in Kishi logic as a general rule


Actually with Obito it makes perfect sense, because Obito was "phasing" specific parts of his body, so all he'd have to do is not "phase" out the soles of his feat that way he doesn't fall through the earth. Now don't ask me how his legs don't collapse because that makes no sense, but according to Kishi your body is fine if specific part is moved to the other dimension while the rest stays in this dimension:
chapter



> Plus, even if this was self selective for a Hirashin user, does this mean a Hirashin user could....touch the ground of Konoha and choose to teleport half the houses and leave the other half? It's an exaggerated example since I doubt either Tobirama or Minato could teleport all of Konoha but Minato managed Kurama so clearly there is no clear size limit.


It depends on if he could extend his chakra so that it's touching half the houses in Konoha, we've never seen Tobirama or Minato display such an ability so I'd have to say no. 

If they could indeed extend their chakra that far then yes, they could do that.



> If he could teleport a thing he is touching and start leaving parts out like that, do you realize that he could, for instance, teleport just Itachis head and kill him instantly? Why stop with warping Susano'o by touching it? Why not Susano'o and his head? I mean, space time jutsu can in principle do this as seen with Kakashi's Kamui. You are pretty much inventing a whole new application of Hiraishin on the spot. This isn't like anything he has ever done before


Yeah it's crazy hax'd, what can I say, blame Kishimoto lol. But in all seriousness Kamui could have solo'd everyone if Obito used it in a certain way, I.E. phasing out his hand reaching into someone's chest and than phasing in his hand crushing their heart. We also saw Obito make other objects tangible and than intangible, so technically he should have been able to turn someone intangible by just touching them and not needing to warp them to box land, which would have own'd so many people, he also showed the ability to eject something out of his dimension, so he could turn someone's body part intangible and than release it from the dimension from his eye tearing that person apart. 

So really there is a-lot of hax potential that I don't think Kishi realizes when he introduces a Jutsu, the potential your describe of Minato's FTG and what I describe of Obito's Kamui are probably examples of that or at very least I wouldn't consider them likely to be actual abilities of Obito/Minato with them not yet demonstrating them using the Jutsu in that way. If Kishi does show it eventually though I wouldn't be like oh shit where did that come from, I'd be like so Kishimoto actually does realizes how hax he made that technique, imagine that!

The reason why I took Minato teleporting Susano'o or the user away seriously is because I've seen Minato actually use FTG to teleport away chakra constructs and other physical beings before, while selecting to leave other behind. Than he directly demonstrated the ability in ch 640, which sealed the deal for me.

This is not the case with the suggested ability, at least not yet and hopefully never will be because it would make so much shit make no sense whatsoever, like why didn't Tobirama just teleport Obito's head off this whole time.


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## Quab (Jul 31, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Before this chapter, Tobirama already had a feat of defeating a MS using Izuna who was said to be Madara's equal.


Yes, defeating a Mangekyo Sharingan Izuna is a feat in itself, but he was still not an equal to Madara.  Hence the reason why Madara was the main factor in the "Uchiha-Senju" fight as was Hashirama.  Portrayal wise Hashirama and Madara are closer to equals, with Hashirama edging Madara out and then you have Tobirama and Izuna. 

Plus we don't have much feats on Izuna, but to think that Izuna was better than Itachi is not debatable.  Izuna has no feats, other than small flashbacks. 



> He also can use his Gojō Kibaku Fuda with a clone or place them himself, summoning them right onto Itachi's body before he can react since Tobirama placed all five tags + a Hiraishin tag on Obito, the fastest/second fastest character in the entire series without Obito noticing.



Yes, Tobirama can use that technique on Itachi but what you're forgetting is that Itachi loves fighting with Bunshins.  Something Obito doesn't use.  And anyways Obito didn't really care for the tags to explode on him.  But Tobirama summoning tags before Itachi can react? 
A Sage-mode Kabuto (enhanced speed and perception) couldn't even speed blitz Itachi and then he only got him out of a sneak-attack (Itachi couldn't even activate Susanoo, as he was casting Izanami).  This means that speed blitzing Itachi is more difficult than you may think.



> He can use his Hiraishin Gōshun Mawashi no Jutsu to switch out with a clone and get Itachi stabbed on one of Tobirama's swords. Kishimoto also has hyped Tobirama's speed up, and his Suitons counter Itachi's Katons with ease.



Again, Itachi fights with bunshins and he has shown a better capability with his bunshins then Tobirama.  Itachi's handseal speed is still the fastest in the manga and with his expertise in Bunshin's he can lay a trap before Tobirama and could counter with a exploding clone or crow bunshin.



> Sorry, Itachi has been left in the dust. He's beaten in sheer strength, ninjutsu, speed, and taijutsu. Genjutsu is a non factor because of Tobirama's sensory abilities.



There's one thing that you forgot to mention.  *Battle Intelligence.*
This is where he outclasses Tobirama.
You forgot that Itachi is one of the most wise, intelligent, and insightful characters in this manga.  The reason why he is so deadly is because of this [1].  He could read Tobirama like a book and counter all of his abilities.



> Itachi should STOP being put on this 'unbeatable' pedestal. He's not winning against Tobirama, he isn't even on the same fucking tier from Tobirama's feats.



Wow.  I don't need to argue with you about this.  Just one or two Tobirama feats and you put him above Itachi (who has shown better and years of more feats).  Don't bother replying to my post.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2013)

Quab said:


> Yes, defeating a Mangekyo Sharingan Izuna is a feat in itself, but he was still not an equal to Madara.  Hence the reason why Madara was the main factor in the "Uchiha-Senju" fight as was Hashirama.  Portrayal wise Hashirama and Madara are closer to equals, with Hashirama edging Madara out and then you have Tobirama and Izuna.
> 
> Plus we don't have much feats on Izuna, but to think that Izuna was better than Itachi is not debatable.  Izuna has no feats, other than small flashbacks.


The manga has put Izuna as Madara's equal when they both had the Sharingan and Mangekyo Sharingan within the Uchiha Clan. Tobirama defeating MS Izuna already automatically puts him above Itachi within the story.




> Yes, Tobirama can use that technique on Itachi but what you're forgetting is that Itachi loves fighting with Bunshins.  Something Obito doesn't use.  And anyways Obito didn't really care for the tags to explode on him.  But Tobirama summoning tags before Itachi can react?


Tobirama ALSO uses Bushins. And you're comparing Itachi's Bushin speed with Obito's? SERIOUSLY? And you fail to grasp: Tobirama placed the tags on Obito, the fastest/second fastest being in *THE ENTIRE FUCKING MANGA* and put his seal on him before Obito even reacted. Yet...just because Itachi uses Bushins, despite being not even in the same ballpark of speed, can react and avoid? Seriously?


> A Sage-mode Kabuto (enhanced speed and perception) couldn't even speed blitz Itachi and then he only got him out of a sneak-attack (Itachi couldn't even activate Susanoo, as he was casting Izanami).  This means that speed blitzing Itachi is more difficult than you may think.


Sage Mode Kabuto outright blitzed Itachi (not a sneak attack) and Itachi was at his mercy. Sage Mode Kabuto is far slower than Obito, Minato, BM/KCM full power Naruto, A, and Tobirama. The manga had Tobirama's speed being hyped up.

Tobirama with FTG can blitz Itachi really easily.



> Again, Itachi fights with bunshins and he has shown a better capability with his bunshins then Tobirama.  Itachi's handseal speed is still the fastest in the manga and with his expertise in Bunshin's he can lay a trap before Tobirama and could counter with a exploding clone or crow bunshin.


Stop it with the Itachi wank. Tobirama's shown good Bushin usage. Not only that Itachi's hand seal speed the 'best in the manga'? It hasn't been hyped up since Part I and frankly, Sasuke, SM Kabuto, and post-Timeskip Kakashi ALL have kept up with it in Part II. 

Exploding Bushin, you mean the tech that barely scratched Part I Kakashi?


> There's one thing that you forgot to mention.  *Battle Intelligence.*
> This is where he outclasses Tobirama.
> You forgot that Itachi is one of the most wise, intelligent, and insightful characters in this manga.  The reason why he is so deadly is because of this [1].  He could read Tobirama like a book and counter all of his abilities.


So your argument 'He's Itachi'. Sorry, you aren't making an argument. Tobirama outclasses Itachi in battle intelligence, spotted weaknesses in Obito, and has had decades of experience over Itachi. Tobirama created FTG and Edo Tensei.

Oh, and that panel: if Itachi was so smart he'd have known already, before Kabuto told him, that killing the summoner doesn't cancel Edo Tensei. 


> Wow.  I don't need to argue with you about this.  Just one or two Tobirama feats and you put him above Itachi (who has shown better and years of more feats).  Don't bother replying to my post.


Tobirama's been consistently put higher than Itachi for the past few months. Not only that, you're wanking Itachi and basically saying he can react to current Obito with a clone.


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## Nikushimi (Jul 31, 2013)

I was waiting for SSM12's reaction. It was pretty much what I expected. 

I bet he didn't even notice that Sasuke put a Susano'o hand around Naruto before Minato or Tobirama could do anything.

Inb4 "Sasuke is faster than Itachi now."


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Aug 1, 2013)

U guys do realize that half the shit Nidaime has done would not be possible if he weren't an edo?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 1, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> U guys do realize that half the shit Nidaime has done would not be possible if he weren't an edo?


Tobirama has alluded he CAN do it without being an Edo Tensei. He can make a clone for Goju Kibafuda, he can leave a Hiraishin mark with a touch while Obito can't even tell.


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## Mangeykou Byakugan (Aug 1, 2013)

Ummm no, that paper tag move was meant for Edo Tensei purposes only 
Its a suicide technique

And I meant he wouldnt be alive to place marks on anything cause he lacks the speed, reflexes, a n d Hirashin utilization that Minato has


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 1, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Ummm no, that paper tag move was meant for Edo Tensei purposes only
> Its a suicide technique
> 
> And I meant he wouldnt be alive to place marks on anything cause he lacks the speed, reflexes, a n d Hirashin utilization that Minato has


Tobirama said its normally used in conjunction with Edo Tensei, but all it requires is placing five seals on the enemy. When that happens, they automatically summon more tags. 

Minato is faster than Tobirama, but the manga has hyped up Tobirama's speed a few times. And given Minato and Tobirama's timing this chapter, their speed and reflexes aren't that far off.


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## Almondsand (Aug 1, 2013)

Itachi is the best with shadow clones and using feints. Speed is nothing without reaction and prep. Tobirama have to prep for all his techniques that is why they are so powerful in a straight unplanned battle Itachi will outsmart him and kill him with a simple shadow clone feint. Itachi will not be befuddled by a hokage he knows about from the history text he read as a 7 year old child. His skill partnered with his strategic intelligence still have yet to be unsurpassed in this manga.


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## Ersa (Aug 1, 2013)

Close honestly.

I think Tobirama is superior to Sick Itachi but still weaker then healthy Itachi, at this point in time he seems to be a weaker Minato in my eyes. Edo Tensei is useless here as we know little to nothing, can he summon people at their full power and who can he summon?

I see Itachi ensnaring him in genjutsu eventually.

Itachi high difficulty.


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## Yagura (Aug 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It can be used with Kage Bunshin, apparently, although Tobirama stated that it's slower (somehow; may need to wait for a better translation).



Oh, well, I misunderstood what you meant. 

Anyway, don't you think your giving Tobirama a bit too much credit? His Hiraishin's effectiveness is really held back due to a lack of immediate mobility and range and his Edo Tensei should be even weaker than part 1 Orochimaru's fodder kage (and who is he suppose to summon?). So I'm not really seeing how he is suppose to press Itachi here.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 1, 2013)

Yagura said:


> Oh, well, I misunderstood what you meant.
> 
> Anyway, don't you think your giving Tobirama a bit too much credit? His Hiraishin's effectiveness is really held back due to a lack of immediate mobility and range and his Edo Tensei should be even weaker than part 1 Orochimaru's fodder kage (and who is he suppose to summon?). So I'm not really seeing how he is suppose to press Itachi here.



Unless Itachi whips out Amaterasu like right away and then shuriken-spams Tobirama to death while he's stop-drop-n'-rolling, T-dawg should be able to set up some Hiraishin tags around the battlefield or just attach one to any object of adequate size and throw it.

At this starting distance, there's no immediate threat of being hit with Amaterasu, so Tobirama's safe until he can get some tags in place.


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## Kisame (Aug 1, 2013)

Tobirama has no answer to Tsukiyomi, and I don't believe he will be able to defeat Itachi before he catches a glimps of the Sharingan.


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## Yagura (Aug 1, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Unless Itachi whips out Amaterasu like right away and then shuriken-spams Tobirama to death while he's stop-drop-n'-rolling, T-dawg should be able to set up some Hiraishin tags around the battlefield or just attach one to any object of adequate size and throw it.
> 
> At this starting distance, there's no immediate threat of being hit with Amaterasu, so Tobirama's safe until he can get some tags in place.



Eh, would he really have the luxury of running around tagging shit with Itachi right on top of him? The distance isn't so much of a barrier that Tobirama gets to do whatever. They have knowledge, too, so Itachi will know what's up and can acclimate quickly.


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## Dominus (Aug 1, 2013)

Mangeykou Byakugan said:


> Ummm no, that paper tag move was meant for Edo Tensei purposes only
> Its a suicide technique
> 
> And I meant he wouldnt be alive to place marks on anything cause he lacks the speed, reflexes, a n d Hirashin utilization that Minato has



That technique won't kill Tobirama because he won't be using it with his body, he'll use it with the body of the shinobi he reincarnates, that's why he said that it was the first time he used that technique with his body when he attacked Obito.


----------



## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 1, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Where is this ever stated to be the mechanic for FTG?
> 
> The only things were told about FTG's mechanics is that it's similar to Kuchiyose. Kuchiyose is all about selectively teleporting something specific to you. It does not create a wormhole of sorts that teleports everything within it's radius.



You yourself have often posited that Hiraishin uses dimensional space. As a form of Kuchiyose, Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit (although not necessarily the same space). 


> Also the idea of the wormhole just plain does not make sense, since Obito had is hand touching both Naruto and Sasuke's faces. There is no way Minato could make a wormhole of sorts precise enough to encompass Naruto and Sasuke but not take with it part of Obito's hands or leave behind part of Sasuke and Naruto's faces. And if for some logic defying reason he could shape his dimensional space that perfectly than he certainly could make one that encompasses only Sasuke or only Susano'o, thus once again arriving at the same result as before.
> 
> Another instance of selectivity is shown at the end of this chapter where Minato teleports and leaves the Fuuton Amaterasu Shuriken behind despite it touching him, which again would hardly be possible if he's opening specifically sized dimensional spaces. Rather he is moving specific things into subspace (as DB III describes space-time Jutsu as movement into subspace)



Mmm, but the only way for him to move things into subspace that are in contact with him or his chakra is if the jutsu is _extended_ to them. There has to be some kind of portal to that subspace; just as Kamui requires a barrier to determine what is sucked into it. It doesn't open along the same lines as Kamui, but it seems to automatically adapt to the shape of the objects he or his chakra is touching...unless he doesn't want to extend the wormhole any further.


> Not true he can do both. In Chapter 630 he did not set up any kind of barrier to teleport Juubi's Bijuu Bomb, he simply regular FTG teleported it away:
> Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit



You know this how, exactly? We didn't see the warp and we know that his chakra needs to be touching it if he is not not. The only thing possible is a barrier, and we know his Jikukan Kekkai is invisible. And he always uses it to warp Bijuudama as he did against Kurama and as we was going to do in chapter 640 when Obito attacked himself.


> Like wise in chapter 631 we see Minato teleporting Hiruzen and Tobirama to a FTG kuni w/o having to move their himself and w/o using a space time barrier. All he had to do is have his chakra touching them and he could teleport them to any FTG Marker he designated:
> Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit
> Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit



That literally has nothing to do with my point. He obviously had his chakra touching them (somehow or another; the only way I see is if he had surrounded them within Jikukan Kekkai), and all you are talking about now is his ability to teleport objects to other kunai than him without direct contact.

I never denied that so...I have no idea what you are talking about.


> In this chapter we another demonstrations of that, when Tobirama's clone teleports Obito's bomb just by touching it.



Yes, he needs to make contact. That doesn't mean there isn't a wormhole. Obito's warping aspect of Kamui requires contact but he still determines the size of the wormhole....


> So all any attacks needs to be is just touching Minato's chakra or body to be teleported. The purpose of the barrier is by putting up a barrier infused with his chakra infront of him he's expand the range of what his chakra can touch, thus allowing him to teleport things that typically his chakra would not reach. As was illustrated against Kyuubi's Bijuu Bomb here:
> Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit



Yes, obviously. You seem to have missed my point or are just losing track of what the argument is.


> Actually with Obito it makes perfect sense, because Obito was "phasing" specific parts of his body, so all he'd have to do is not "phase" out the soles of his feat that way he doesn't fall through the earth. Now don't ask me how his legs don't collapse because that makes no sense, but according to Kishi your body is fine if specific part is moved to the other dimension while the rest stays in this dimension:
> Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit



So you admit that Kishi logic neglects such simple logic but you think Obito is actively concentrating _not to phase through the air, light, sound, and earth_? Because we know that his phasing, once turned on, is automatic. It is why, when he is in phasing mode, he can't strike. No, this is just Kishi logic. The jutsu automatically ignores those things because....Kishi logic.


> It depends on if he could extend his chakra so that it's touching half the houses in Konoha, we've never seen Tobirama or Minato display such an ability so I'd have to say no.
> 
> If they could indeed extend their chakra that far then yes, they could do that.



OMG. You really think there is no limit whatsoever to Hiraishin other than how far they can spread their chakra. If you were correct, then why does he have Jikukan Kekkai at all? If he can simply expand Hiraishin by being in contact with the same air or ground, then why would he need to extend his chakra? We saw against Kurama he didn't put the barrier that far from him. By your logic, Minato, now that he has KCM and a whole shit ton of chakra should be able to warp things over some truly massive distance. Seriously, don't say "blame Kishi", I blame you. This isn't what Kishi ever said Hiraishin does: you have to be in pretty direct contact with things and air and earth and the like are always excluded automatically. Otherwise, Minato is in contact with the earth...the whole Earth, in a sense. So he can just teleport anything on it. 


> Yeah it's crazy hax'd, what can I say, blame Kishimoto lol. But in all seriousness Kamui could have solo'd everyone if Obito used it in a certain way, I.E. phasing out his hand reaching into someone's chest and than phasing in his hand crushing their heart.We also saw Obito make other objects tangible and than intangible, so technically he should have been able to turn someone intangible by just touching them and not needing to warp them to box land, which would have own'd so many people, he also showed the ability to eject something out of his dimension, so he could turn someone's body part intangible and than release it from the dimension from his eye tearing that person apart.



And he never did any of that, so I am going to assume he can't because I can't introduce whatever hax I like just because the jutsu's mechanics might possibly allow for it. 


> So really there is a-lot of hax potential that I don't think Kishi realizes when he introduces a Jutsu, the potential your describe of Minato's FTG and what I describe of Obito's Kamui are probably examples of that or at very least I wouldn't consider them likely to be actual abilities of Obito/Minato with them not yet demonstrating them using the Jutsu in that way. If Kishi does show it eventually though I wouldn't be like oh shit where did that come from, I'd be like so Kishimoto actually does realizes how hax he made that technique, imagine that!
> 
> The reason why I took Minato teleporting Susano'o or the user away seriously is because I've seen Minato actually use FTG to teleport away chakra constructs and other physical beings before, while selecting to leave other behind. Than he directly demonstrated the ability in ch 640, which sealed the deal for me.



You forget, he hasn't done it the way you are talking about. Susano'o is not simply something else, it is a chakra aura much like Raiton no Yoroi. You can move the user without moving it if you pin down the chakra or if you teleport the user without extending it outwards (just like Minato did when he didn't teleport Obito) but not move it without moving the user (they always go flying when Susano'o goes flying). Susano'o has never been separated from it's user. Only vice versa.


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Susano'o has never been separated from it's user. Only vice versa.



Yeah it doesn't work like that.....

X can't be "separated" from Y without Y also being separated from X. It doesn't just work one way.



> Susano'o is not simply something else, it is a chakra aura much like Raiton no Yoroi. You can move the user without moving it if you pin down the chakra



This similarly makes no sense.

If Gaara held down Ei, he couldn't actually grab his body and pull him out of the lighting armor. Ei & the Ration armor are truly connected, Susano'o & its user are not. Susano'o wasn't in the way of Gaara's sand when it grabbed Madara's arm. Gaara holding down Susano'o has no bearing on the matter. You can't separate connected items by holding down part of it and pulling on another. If you apply enough force, you can break them apart, but Gaara did no such thing.

EX: If I pull on your arm, you and your arm are going to come towards me. If someone holds you down, you aren't going to move, but your arm won't magically plop off either. You'll stay together unless I literally apply enough force to rip your arm off.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 1, 2013)

What's Tobirama's counter for finger or crow genjutsu?

**​


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Rocky, I like your tier list, but prime Itachi should be S+.​



Prime Itachi is actually too high on my tier list to be seen on most surfaces. 

Try casting an image of my tier list on the moon for better results.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 1, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Yeah it doesn't work like that.....
> 
> X can't be "separated" from Y without Y also being separated from X. It doesn't just work one way.
> 
> ...



Except it has been proven not to work that way. Otherwise, when Susano'o is sent flying, the user would stay in the same place. Or Baku would have sucked out Sasuke while Susano'o remained in place. And yes, Gaara did literally rip Madara out of Susano'o with sheer force.

Susano'o and the user are connected unless you forcibly separate them. Of course, since Susano'o is a giant shield against such force, you really have no chance of doing that unless you find a way to target the user directly.


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## Rocky (Aug 1, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> And yes, Gaara did literally rip Madara out of Susano'o with sheer force.



So your belief is that Gaara, with lightened (weakened), non-gourd sand, forcibly broke Susano'o 's hold on Madara without any struggle whatsoever...

Okay. That must be a piss poor connection. 

Here's another question, how did Gaara's sand even grab Madara? If Susano'o stems outward from the user like RnY, then it would have been in the sand's way.


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## Dr. White (Aug 1, 2013)

Susano is connected mentally, and worn like ethereal armor.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 1, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Susano is connected mentally, and worn like ethereal armor.



Then why the hell did Gaara get Madara out of Susanoo and why when Minato teleported Sasuke, he left part of his Susanoo


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## Turrin (Aug 1, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> You yourself have often posited that Hiraishin uses dimensional space. As a form of Kuchiyose, Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit (although not necessarily the same space).


I never argued that they don't enter a subspace for transit. What I disagree with is the idea that they enter this subspace through the usage of a "wormhole"



> Mmm, but the only way for him to move things into subspace that are in contact with him or his chakra is if the jutsu is extended to them. There has to be some kind of portal to that subspace; just as Kamui requires a barrier to determine what is sucked into it. It doesn't open along the same lines as Kamui, but it seems to automatically adapt to the shape of the objects he or his chakra is touching...unless he doesn't want to extend the wormhole any further.


.
I don't think it's a "worm hole" as again that would make no sense with the selectivity Minato has shown, because how could he open a wormhole that encompasses Naruto/Sasuke's entire body, but not Obito's hand that was touching their body or AmaterasuShuriken which was touching his body. He'd have to have molecular precision with his wormhole and if that's the case he certainly create a wormhole that encompasses Susano'o and not Sasuke anyway, so like I said before we arrive at the same conclusion. 

What I think happens is not a wormhole, but rather something simply moves into subspace through some unexplainable force, that Kishi has never thought through.



> You know this how, exactly? We didn't see the warp and we know that his chakra needs to be touching it if he is not not. The only thing possible is a barrier, and we know his Jikukan Kekkai is invisible. And he always uses it to warp Bijuudama as he did against Kurama and as we was going to do in chapter 640 when Obito attacked himself.


Because when the barrier is used the Bijuu Bomb is not transported instantly as we saw with Kyuubi's bomb and there are also these weird black squiggly lines, which are not present in that scan. Look at the difference:
Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit
Gyuki seemed clear that space/time ninjutsu use other dimensional space for transit



> So you admit that Kishi logic neglects such simple logic but you think Obito is actively concentrating not to phase through the air, light, sound, and earth? Because we know that his phasing, once turned on, is automatic. It is why, when he is in phasing mode, he can't strike. No, this is just Kishi logic. The jutsu automatically ignores those things because....Kishi logic.


All i'm saying is why call BS when it's not necessary since it can be explained by the soles of Obito's feat being left in this dimension?

Also never heard of Obito Jutsu being automatic.



> OMG. You really think there is no limit whatsoever to Hiraishin other than how far they can spread their chakra. If you were correct, then why does he have Jikukan Kekkai at all? If he can simply expand Hiraishin by being in contact with the same air or ground, then why would he need to extend his chakra? We saw against Kurama he didn't put the barrier that far from him.


I don't know what your talking about. Minato doesn't have the ability to expand his chakra out into the air like a Hyuuga can, that's why he needs the Barrier as a means to expand his chakra out in-front of them.

If Minato was a Hyuuga and has massive chakra than he could do what your suggesting. 



> OMG. You really think there is no limit whatsoever to Hiraishin other than how far they can spread their chakra. If you were correct, then why does he have Jikukan Kekkai at all? If he can simply expand Hiraishin by being in contact with the same air or ground, then why would he need to extend his chakra? We saw against Kurama he didn't put the barrier that far from him. By your logic, Minato, now that he has KCM and a whole shit ton of chakra should be able to warp things over some truly massive distance. Seriously, don't say "blame Kishi", I blame you. This isn't what Kishi ever said Hiraishin does: you have to be in pretty direct contact with things and air and earth and the like are always excluded automatically. Otherwise, Minato is in contact with the earth...the whole Earth, in a sense. So he can just teleport anything on it.


Viewing the earth as one object is ridiculous as it doesn't work that way. If Minato is touching the ground he's simply making contact with that specific patch of dirt and could only teleport that dirt. Yes he could select if he wanted to which pieces of dirt he or his chakra is touching to teleport or not, but he couldn't teleport the entire earth, because the earth is not one single object.



> You forget, he hasn't done it the way you are talking about. Susano'o is not simply something else, it is a chakra aura much like Raiton no Yoroi. You can move the user without moving it if you pin down the chakra or if you teleport the user without extending it outwards (just like Minato did when he didn't teleport Obito) but not move it without moving the user (they always go flying when Susano'o goes flying). Susano'o has never been separated from it's user. Only vice versa.


I don't get what your saying, it's like Zen riddles level of confusing. Yes there is a connection between Susano'o and the user, but if Sasuke can be teleported out of Susano'o as we saw last chapter, that means that FTG has the ability to sever that connection between Susano'o and the caster, so of course it could than teleport Susano'o away from the user, because we already established that FTG can serve the connection.


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## Almondsand (Aug 1, 2013)

What you people arguing for Tobirama feels to realize is that Haraishin and Edo tensei needs prep... And Itachi moves efficiently wasting as little energy as possible to dispose of his threat as early as possible by the best means possible. Basically Tobirama without doing anything prepatory will not defeat Itachi due to Itachi already knowing about his abilities anyways when he was just a 7 year old kid.


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## Illusive Frame (Aug 1, 2013)

Lol people really think Tobirama wins this. 

Lol people think Tobirama has better suiton than Kisame. 

Lol Tobirama fans. 

What does Tobirama have to break through Susanoo? What does Tobirama have to get out of Itachi's Genjutsu? Closing his eyes?(He does not know about looking at their feet). Susanoo Sword to the face. 

Tobirama gets new feats and people wank it and overrate it. It's Hinata all over again.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2013)

Its a bandwagon dawg. They all come to an halt @ some point.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2013)

Illusive Frame said:


> Lol people really think Tobirama wins this.


Since he has the feats for it.


> Lol people think Tobirama has better suiton than Kisame.


One seal for a complex Suiton, has the hype and status of the best suiton user in the verse.


> Lol Tobirama fans.


LOL rudeness.


> What does Tobirama have to break through Susanoo?


Hiraishin no Jutsu and Gojo Kibafuda.


> What does Tobirama have to get out of Itachi's Genjutsu? Closing his eyes?(He does not know about looking at their feet). Susanoo Sword to the face.


...you're inquiring something about a character *WHOSE FOUGHT UCHIHA EVER SINCE HE CAN FUCKING WALK?* And Susano'o sword touching a FTG user? Are you serious?


> Tobirama gets new feats and people wank it and overrate it. It's Hinata all over again.


Tobirama gets new feats that put him above Itachi, no wank involve kid.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 2, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since he has the feats for it.



Tobirama may or may not beat Itachi. With the feats he's got so far, he couldn't pull it off more often than not.



> One seal for a complex Suiton, has the hype and status of the best suiton user in the verse.



Uh...no. Kisame is the best Suiton user we've seen. Mei has displayed better Suiton Ninjutsu than Tobirama and Hanzou has databook hype of being the best at aquatic combat/mobility.



> Hiraishin no Jutsu and Gojo Kibafuda.



The latter wouldn't do anything to Susano'o and Hiraishin requires Tobirama to get a tag inside Susano'o, which he can't do unless he leads Itachi over one on the ground.



> ...you're inquiring something about a character *WHOSE FOUGHT UCHIHA EVER SINCE HE CAN FUCKING WALK?*



Itachi's a special case, as not every Uchiha is as proficient with Genjutsu as he is. Finger Genjutsu elevates Itachi's threat level significantly over your standard Uchiha, to say nothing of Tsukuyomi (which throws conventional logic for fighting the Sharingan right out the window).



> And Susano'o sword touching a FTG user? Are you serious?



Hey, Minato died by impalement. Crazier things have happened.



> Tobirama gets new feats that put him above Itachi, no wank involve



None of Tobirama's feats put him above Itachi.



> kid.





That's cute.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tobirama may or may not beat Itachi. With the feats he's got so far, he couldn't pull it off more often than not.


Tobirama is the perfect example of why I don't take Itachi-fans seriously anymore. 

Tobirama has shown counters to  all of Itachi's Jutsu
Tobirama has been shown to excel in more Ninja arts than Itachi
Tobirama has years of experience fighting Sharingan/MS users
Itachi has not shown confirmed counters to all of Tobirama's Jutsu
Tobirama has been portrayed to be one of the best ninja's ever & there should be no big shock if Itachi were to loose to him or insult to his prowess.

If with all of that taken into consideration there's still no chance that Tobirama could be stronger than Itachi or beat him more often than not, than obviously there is never going to be a character that Itachi fans admit would best him in combat.


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## Kai (Aug 2, 2013)

It is for those reasons that this fight is likely to be down to the wire. I'd imagine Tobirama vs. Itachi to be one of the closest fights between two characters of the manga.

For the record, Itachi is in healthy condition with perfect eyesight.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama has shown counters to  all of Itachi's Jutsu



He hasn't shown counters or knowledge of finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, or Izanami. His counters to Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are largely hypothetical and not without their own problems.​


Turrin said:


> Tobirama has been shown to excel in more Ninja arts than Itachi



Ninjutsu: Itachi has more skill and hype in casting ninjutsu than practically any other ninja. Tobirama invented more jutsu than Itachi, or Ōnoki, but that doesn't mean he excels more in the art than they do.

Fūinjutsu: Hiraishin is more prominent, but Itachi used (and invented) trap, seemingly seal-less fūinjutsu that amazed the highly knowledgeable Obito, so Itachi definitely excels no less than Tobirama in the art.

Genjutsu: Itachi dominates in skillful applications of genjutsu, as well as the less important area of invention. Genjutsu is his specialty yet its hype and feats are typically discarded in the Battledome.

Seals: Itachi definitely has more hype and better feats in quickly and skillfully molding seals, but Tobirama is probably comparable. Still, Tobirama definitely doesn't excel more.

Taijutsu: There's nothing indicating that Tobirama would overcome sick, base Itachi's solid 4.5 proficiency in taijutsu, let alone healthy Itachi using his Sharingan. Tobirama's skilled, but definitely not moreso.

Weapons: Itachi has Kabuto & Sasuke hyping up his shurikenjutsu and Itachi being shown to be highly proficient with a swords against Kabuto. Tobirama used a sword, but we never saw his swordsmanship. 

Strength: Tobirama didn't make cracks in walls. Those cracks were there from Hashirama's chakra pressure. So he has nothing putting him above the average level of elite strength possessed by sick Itachi.

Speed: Hiraishin is included as ninjutsu, not speed, just like Susano'o is ninjutsu, not strength. Hence they're more likely about equal, occupying that space just a _bit_ below Minato.

Intelligence: Tobirama is no doubt one of the smartest ninja, but he definitely doesn't have the feats to clearly best Itachi in overall, raw intelligence. They're comparable at the very least.

Stamina: Itachi, when a day away from keeling over and dying from sickness, loses this category against any high tier. Healthy Itachi's stamina is debatable, just like Tobirama's stamina in life.

Medical: Itachi did some weird-ass surgical shit to make that crow sustain a Sharingan and cast Mangekyō jutsu. He also treated his disease with medicines. Tobirama's never used this art.​


Turrin said:


> Tobirama has years of experience fighting Sharingan/MS users


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the perfect example of why I don't take Itachi-fans seriously anymore.
> 
> 
> Tobirama has been shown to excel in more Ninja arts than Itachi


This is false.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

alex payne said:


> This is false.


Care to explain how it's false?


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Care to explain how it's false?



*Elemental Ninjutsu:* One Element Grandmastery(Hype)/One Element Mastery(Feats) is either inferior or _equal_ to 1 Element Mastery+1 Element Proficiency/Mastery. 

*Bunshinjutsu:* Kagebunshin+Bunshin Daibakuha+Karasu Bunshin is obviously _superior_ to Normal KB.

*Genjutsu:* 

*Fuinjutsu:* Tensha Fuin: Amaterasu is _comparable_ or superior to Fuinjutsu-elements in Hiraishin and Kibaku Fuda(if it even has fuinjutsu part)

*Taijutsu:* _Itachi_ has superior feats(KCM Naruto+Killer B)

*Weapon and tools usage:* Either _comparable_(hiraishin-giri, tag placement vs advanced shurikenjutsu, Kabuto-fight feats) or Itachi is superior due to numerous showings.

*Handseals:* 

*Intelligence:* Close with _Itachi_ having insane hype from Kabuto and Sarutobi + Hebi Sasuke fight/Kabuto fight feats

*Trump Cards:* Tsukiyomi+Amaterasu+equipped Susano are at the very least _comparable_ to Hiraishin, Gojō Kibaku Fuda and watered down Edo Tensei. Each requires high-end chakra control and ninjutsu mastery.

*Misc:* _Tobirama_ showed sensing and advanced Barrier. (2 points to _Nidaime_)


Can't see why Tobirama is superior in "Ninja Arts". They are roughly equal with each having different specialization. Unless you downplay MS mastery and play with grouping of "Arts" there is nothing that puts Tobirama ahead of Itachi.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Strength: Tobirama didn't make cracks in walls. Those cracks were there from Hashirama's chakra pressure. So he has nothing putting him above the average level of elite strength possessed by sick Itachi.
> 
> Speed: Hiraishin is included as ninjutsu, not speed, just like Susano'o is ninjutsu, not strength. Hence they're more likely about equal, occupying that space just a _bit_ below Minato.
> 
> Stamina: Itachi, when a day away from keeling over and dying from sickness, loses this category against any high tier. Healthy Itachi's stamina is debatable, just like Tobirama's stamina in life.



What!?    

None of these are debatable. Tobirama's a senju (one of the strongest ones at that) meaning his stamina and strength far exceed Itachi regardless of him being healthy or not. 

And Hiraishin is classified as speed in this manga meaning the speed department isn't debatable either.

And btw, Tobirama actually did crack the wall with his hand. In the top panel here (blank) you see him place his hand on the wall. In middle right panel of the same scan you see a crack circling his hand. There was no such crack in the top panel, which means he did indeed crack the wall there.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Tobirama's a senju (one of the strongest ones at that) meaning his stamina and strength far exceed Itachi



Sounds less like "arts" or skills and more like "traits." I also reject that blanket statement about Senju trumping Uchiha in general in those areas. Chakra stamina and enhanced strength from chakra vitalization are _equal parts_ spritual and bodily energy.​


The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And btw, Tobirama actually did crack the wall with his hand. In the top panel here (blank) you see him place his hand on the wall. In middle right panel of the same scan you see a crack circling his hand. There was no such crack in the top panel.



It was definitely already there. Don't let the perspective zooming out fool you. Besides, even if it wasn't, further cracking an already cracked wall isn't a strength feat because the integrity was already compromised. And Itachi smashed _through_ stone anyway.​


The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> And Hiraishin is classified as speed in this manga meaning the speed department isn't debatable either.



Don't be ridiculous. Is Hiraishin ninjutsu or not? Yes. Then why would it factor into the physical speed and reflexes category? It's like giving Itachi +20 points in taijutsu "empty-hand combat" because he can paralyze people for varied amounts of time by waving his finger.​


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> You make them sound less like "arts" or skills and more like *"traits.*"



Because that's basically  what they are when it comes to the Senju. They're the body (strength, stamina, and chakra). That's what they naturally excel in.



> It was definitely already there. Don't let the perspective zooming out fool you. Besides, even if it wasn't, further cracking an already cracked wall isn't a strength feat.[/indent​




No, it wasn't. Anybody with common sense can see it. In the top panel there's clearly no crack circling his hand while in the middle right panel there is.



> Don't be ridiculous. Is Hiraishin ninjutsu or not? Yes. Then why would it factor into the physical speed and reflexes category? It's like giving Itachi +20 points in taijutsu because he can paralyze people for varied amounts of time by waving his finger.​



I'm not talking about physical speed, I'm talking about speed in general and hiraishin is considered speed in this manga and thus the speed department isn't debatable.

You Itachi fans seem to think Itachi bests everyone in every category. Hate to break it you, he doesn't.​


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## Alex Payne (Aug 2, 2013)

Cracking that wall isn't actually impressive by Narutoverse standarts. Considering people with inferior to Itachi's strength can do this. Every generic jonin is superhuman in strength.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Tobirama is the perfect example of why I don't take Itachi-fans seriously anymore.
> 
> Tobirama has shown counters to  all of Itachi's Jutsu
> Tobirama has been shown to excel in more Ninja arts than Itachi
> ...




From a pure Battledome perspective I can understand what you're saying that with the jutsu Tobirama has displayed there are scenarios in which he can defeat Itachi, but it's hard for most to fathom without indisputable evidence(feats, hype) or unless his role within the manga increases the likes of Tobirama being stronger than Itachi is hard to believe based upon what he's shown,

I think most logical readers can accept Minato(more relevant benchmark), Naruto/Sasuke(MC's) and Obito/Madara/Kabuto(Major Villians) all as being stronger than Itachi, from a pure story telling  standpoint it doesn't make sense considering Itachi's role is much more important than Tobirama's within the manga and his connection is greater to one of the MC's 


This seems to be a trend on the forums

New or cool characters show feats, most of the forum jump on bandwagon and say he's as strong or stronger than Itachi, and this is coming from someone who isn't even a fan

It happened with Killer Bee, then boom Itachi outperforms him against Nagato and Killer Bee fails to live up to expectations

I happened with Raikage the. Boom, Raikage is unable to defeat Sasuke even at stage 3 Susanoo and Raikage so far has failed to live up to expectations,

Then there was Danzo/Nagato who most thought were way above Itachi then let's see

Itachi basically scoffs as Sasuke's victory and displays a jutsu that can counter Izanagi in Izanami

Itachi counters all of Nagato's techniques and just shows that he's overall a more capable shinobi , you can argue help , but overall most would walk away thinking at best Kishi wants you to see Itachi is slightly better,


Now we have Tobirama he's the new guy that doesn't make sense from a story perspective that's placed above Itachi after a great showing, but people faile to realize Sasuke hasn't officially surpassed Itachi yet, which means yes there is possibility more hype is coming his way, shit last time we heard Itachi's name 1st Hokage wanked the shit out of him saying he's a better shinobi than himself which means he thinks Itachi is a better shinobi than Tobirama,

To me from what he's shown he's a very powerful shinobi but he's not in the class of Minato, Naruto, Sasuke, Obito, Madara, Hashirama at least not yet


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Because that's basically  what they are when it comes to the Senju. They're the body (strength, stamina, and chakra). That's what they naturally excel in.



Chakra (stamina) isn't just the " energy" so there goes two categories. Nor was it ever shown that Senju had superior physical strength. Uchiha and Senju seeme evenly matched there.

At least according to actual evidence, they tend to be evenly matched in their physical clashes 1 2 3. So unless Tobirama does something, then don't grant it to him, eh?​


The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> No, it wasn't. Anybody with common sense can see it.



Sure, whatever, let's say he cracked it more. I'd rather not argue about a point made worthless by Itachi smashing through a building instead of just further cracking an already cracked wall.

And as Alex showed, that wasn't a great relativistic strength feat anway. Part one Lee, with less than Itachi's databook strength, did  without effort. Sasuke owned a giant bear with even less.​


The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> I'm not talking about physical speed, I'm talking about speed in general and hiraishin is considered speed in this manga and thus the speed department isn't debatable.



I broke down the ninja arts and Hiraishin fell under ninjutsu because it's ninjutsu. It's the same reason Susano'o isn't factored into . If you/Turrin prefer a double standard then good for you.​


The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> You Itachi fans seem to think Itachi bests everyone in every category. Hate to break it you, he doesn't.



I'll wait for someone to present an effective counterargument then.​


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Chakra (stamina) isn't just the , so there goes two categories. Nor was it ever implied that Senju had superior strength, least of all by Izuna and Tobirama being matched in their sword clash.​





Whose word am I going to take, the mangas or the word of an Itachi fanboy? I wonder 



> I'm not going to argue about a worthless point given that Itachi smashed through a building anyway instead of just cracking it.​



Concession accepted. 



> I broke down the ninja arts, and Hiraishin fell under ninjutsu not speed, because it's ninjutsu. Deal with it.​



Ei stated that Minato was the fastest man in the world and why was that? Hiraishin. 

Yet we still have an Itachitard trying to say the speed department is debatable. Amusing.


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 2, 2013)

Speed/Reaction are two different things , just because Tobirama is faster doesn't mean Itachi can't react to his speed, he's got elite reaction time + the Sharingan, I'm pretty sure he's faster than Madara as well yet he cant defeat him.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> He hasn't shown counters or knowledge of finger genjutsu, crow genjutsu, or Izanami. His counters to Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are largely hypothetical and not without their own problems.​


First off the OP gives Tobirama knowledge of Itachi's Jutsu, so there's that big elephant in the room your ignoring.

1. He'd sense Itachi gathering chakra in his finger and know it's Finger Genjutsu, than avoid it. With that aside I find the whole Finger Genjutsu argument laughable most of the time as all it amounts to is Itachi-fans reducing reducing way more skilled/powerful ninja to Start of Part II Naruto level, which is an argument so weak that no other fandom, but Itachi-fans would try to employ it to argue the case of whatever character they are shipping. Hence why you don't see Deidara-fans arguing that shinobi of Tobirama's stature would be deceived by a clay bushin Kwarimi, to give but one example.

2. He knows about the Sharingan Crow from OP's stipulations. If Itachi starts bring out crows he'll senses the Crow has Sharingan and avoid eye contact with the crow long enough to gun it down with a Suiton, which would take all of 2 seconds because the crow is just your average fodder crow.

3. Tobirama does not deny his fate, proven by the fact that he was willing to accept his fate and die happy in-order to save the new generation of Konoha Ninja, so Izanami won't even work on him. Good luck any way trying to get someone to duplicate the same exact physical sensation with Itachi twice, when they are a teleporter, and have knowledge that Itachi can use Izanami

Saying the counters to Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are hypothetical is just trolling and you know it. We've seen avoiding eye contact and fighting with Chakra sensing as a counter to Tsukuyomi and we've know Chakra Sensing + FTG is enough speed to evade Susano'o's attacks and we've seen FTG separate an Uchiha from Susano'o. So nothing hypothetical about it.



> Ninjutsu: Itachi has more skill and hype in casting ninjutsu than practically any other ninja. Tobirama invented more jutsu than Itachi, or Ōnoki, but that doesn't mean he excels more in the art than they do.


If someone can invent and utilize:

Edo Tensei
Tandem Explosive Tags
Hiraishin
Hiraishingiri 
Goshun Mawashi no Jutsu

And still not be considered more proficient with Ninjutsu than Itachi, than this is yet another example why people should not take Itachi-fans seriously anymore.



> Fūinjutsu: Hiraishin is more prominent, but Itachi used (and invented) trap, seemingly seal-less fūinjutsu that amazed the highly knowledgeable Obito, so Itachi definitely excels no less than Tobirama in the art.


I'm talking about the actual Ninja Art Area's indicate by the author in the DB. But if your seriously think Itachi using Tensha Fuuin displays better Fuuinjutsu skill than Tobirama inventing Hiraishin, The Seal Formula for Tandem Explosive Tags, and the Seal Tags for Edo Tensei, again this is:

 copy - another example why people should not take Itachi-fans seriously anymore - paste.



> Genjutsu: Itachi dominates in skillful applications of genjutsu, as well as the less important area of invention.


Finally something that I can agree with



> Genjutsu is his specialty yet its hype and feats are typically discarded in the Battledome.


Itachi's Genjutsu feats are the most overhyped things on any area of the forum. Itachi's Genjutsu constantly touted as an instant One-shot technique and we're not ever talking Tsukuyomi or Izanami here;' we're talking Three Tome and Finger Genjutsu. Despite the list of the characters who even got trapped by it being:

1. Start of Part II Naruto
2. Rookie Deidara who only showed C1 and never seemed to even hear of Sharingan before
3. Post Wind Training Base Naruto
4. Orochimaru

1 & 2 are fodder compared to any Part II Skilled/Elite Jonin, not even Kage

3. Is inferior to any Kage and inferior to most highly skilled Jonin in exp/common sense, yet still he put up a good enough defense where Itachi needed to use Shisui Eye crow

4. Is thee only Kage Class individual. Though he was indicated to be overly arrogant and careless in that battle due to his lust for Sharigan and not understanding the bloodline itself in DB III. What's more he is one of thee worst equipped Kage Class Ninja to take on Sharingan Genjutsu as he is one of the easiest Kage Class individuals to make eye contact with. 

Raikges have insane speed/reflexes making them difficult to maintain eye contact with long enough for Genjutsu

Mei has demonic Mist & Nindaime Mizukage has Clam Mist as well as his style to hide out while having Joki boi fight for him

Kazekages have Sand LOS Blockers, Third Eye, Flight, and Superior speed to Orochimaru with their Sand acting as a hover craft

Mu has chakra sensing invisibility, while Onoki has great speed with his flight, slow down his opponents dramatically, and can spam Iwa Bushin

And I don't think I even need to get into the Hokages.

So basically we have it working on the Kage Class person individually least equipped in arsenal and mind-set to deal with it and even still it did not one-shot him just resulted in his hand being cut off an injury that insignificant to Orochimaru on any other level than wounding his pride.

Yet the perception of these techniques is that executing them against even shinobi who excel beyond the typical Kage level and many times have knowledge of Uchiha/Sharingan/Genjutsu is easy and they ensure instant victory for Itachi.

I'm not saying these techniques are useless against higher tier character and could never trip them up, but to hear there feats are underestimate is just joke material that I laugh at, at this point 



> Seals: Itachi definitely has more hype and better feats in quickly and skillfully molding seals, but Tobirama is probably comparable. Still, Tobirama definitely doesn't excel more.


Agree, heck I'd even give Itachi more credit here and say he could easily be better than Tobirama in this area. If you want to talk about an underestimated area of Itachi, it is his seal speed, and not Genjutsu.



> Taijutsu: There's nothing indicating that Tobirama would overcome sick, base Itachi's solid 4.5 proficiency in taijutsu, let alone healthy Itachi using his Sharingan. Tobirama's skilled, but definitely not moreso.


Itachi having a 4.5 gives Tobirama room to excel him and Sharingan's advantages are more than balanced by Tobirama's chakra sensing advantages. 

With that said we have no clue whose more skilled here as we haven't been given much to evaluate Tobirama on, I wouldn't be surprised if he got a 4.5 in DB IV and was equal to Itachi, nor would I be surprised if he got a 5 and excelled Itachi.

Sickness has nothing to do with Taijutsu skill, it might effect physical areas, but not skill.



> Weapons: Itachi has Kabuto & Sasuke hyping up his shurikenjutsu and Itachi being shown to be highly proficient with a swords against Kabuto. Tobirama used a sword, but we never saw his swordsmanship.


Again I was referring to the actual Ninja area's Kishimoto has outlined. Weapons skill seems to be factored into Taijutsu, which again we don't know who is better.



> Strength: Tobirama didn't make cracks in walls. Those cracks were there from Hashirama's chakra pressure. So he has nothing putting him above the average level of elite strength possessed by sick Itachi.


No we can clearly see the cracks are forming around his hand and the sound effect is even there:
appearing

Plus let's try some commonsense, the dude is a Senju and the second strongest at that, so the dude's body strength is probably much higher than an Uchiha who became sick at a relatively young age and probably could not tone up his muscle strength all that efficiently, nor specializes in that  area, and is only a .5 above average according to the DB.



> Speed: Hiraishin is included as ninjutsu, not speed, just like Susano'o is ninjutsu, not strength. Hence they're more likely about equal, occupying that space just a bit below Minato.


Kishi seems to include FTG in Minato's speed as that's the reason he's called faster than the Raikage. Also the DB stat description of speed does not leave out the possibility of Ninjutsu enhancements  it just measures generally how quick the character is.

It also seems completely silly to call too characters equal in speed when one can indeed move faster than thee other, whether it's due to a Jutsu speeding him up or not.

Even than Tobirama has better reaction feats than Itachi reacting to Obito and Obito's bomb right before it detonated.



> Intelligence:


Agree they are comparable



> Stamina


We have a Senju who could maintain a massive barrier while still using 2 KB vs a speculatively Healthy Itachi who does not specialize or has ever been indicated to specialize in stamina. Again let's try some common sense.



> Medical


You mean Support - Ninjutsu. Not only does this fall under the category of Ninjutsu, but even if we separated it FTG support practicalities s well as chakra sensing and even Edo Tensei far excel anything Itachi's shown. 

As for your little picture he was being controlled and not even in combat mode at that time. Plus why the hell would he ever think someone summoned him back to life just to Tsukuyomi or heck any type of Genjutsu him, it would be silly, just like this image is. 

So yes if Itachi teemed up with Orochimaru. Orochimaru summoned back the Hokages and than Itachi randomly used Tsukuyomi on Tobirama while they were in the middle of a discussion, that could indeed work, but what an inapplicable scenario which relies on him having the aid of another powerful ninja and him doing something totally pointless and stupid.

So again this is:

copy - another example why people should not take Itachi-fans seriously anymore - paste.

So to recap Itachi is better in Gen & I'll give him hand-seals to. We don't know with Taijutsu and so far they are comparable in intellect. Than Tobirama is better at everything else, which means drumroll....he's better in more ninja areas than Itachi


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Yet we still have an Itachitard trying to say the speed department is debatable. Amusing.



I'm amused that name calling is the best part of your argument.​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Saying the counters to Tsukuyomi and Susano'o are hypothetical is just trolling and you know it. We've seen avoiding eye contact and fighting with Chakra sensing



From perfect sages? Sage Jiraiya said against Pain that normal chakra sensing techniques don't cut it without vision, and Itachi's a hell of a lot more offensively dangerous than those paths.​


Turrin said:


> 1. He'd sense Itachi gathering chakra in his finger and know it's Finger Genjutsu, than avoid it.



Because better sensors have sensed the immensely larger amount of chakra required for long ranged Amaterasu, Tobirama is going to preempt finger genjutsu? Okay.​


Turrin said:


> 2. He knows about the Sharingan Crow from OP's stipulations. If Itachi starts bring out crows he'll senses the Crow has Sharingan and avoid eye contact with the crow long enough to gun it down with a Suiton, which would take all of 2 seconds because the crow is just your average fodder crow.



He'll sense the Sharingan? And where was this ever shown? It's strange how Tobirama decided to look at Sasuke's eyes to notice them instead of just feeling it with his apparent sage-level sensing.​


Turrin said:


> 3. Tobirama does not deny his fate



That's not a prerequisite, as Izanami is what  the victim's fate. The caster of Izanami removes the free will of the victim by setting his own prerequisites for them to escape the jutsu.

I'll definitely get back to the rest. I'm out of time. ​


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## YoSoy (Aug 2, 2013)

Just as an aside, on the point of the crow Genjutsu, didn't Itachi modify it so that it would only react to his MS? Shouldn't re-modifying it to affect someone other than a person wielding his MS be under "preparation" department which the OP gives none for this scenario?


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 2, 2013)

Rocky said:


> So your belief is that Gaara, with lightened (weakened), non-gourd sand, forcibly broke Susano'o 's hold on Madara without any struggle whatsoever...
> 
> Okay. That must be a piss poor connection.
> 
> Here's another question, how did Gaara's sand even grab Madara? If Susano'o stems outward from the user like RnY, then it would have been in the sand's way.



I mean, his sand was strong enough to hold Susano'o, so it obviously wasn't weakened. So either Onoki increased it's weight again as he did with Ei once it actually reached it's target, or the strength of the sand is pretty much entirely generated by Gaara's chakra and not the sand itself (which is why gourd sand is better to begin with). Either way, holding down Susano'o at all with relatively little sand (for Gaara) goes to show that it was not weakened sand. It wasn't noted at all. 

And the answer to your second question is that the chakra is weakest at the bottom of Susano'o as was pointed out at a time. It is also weaker immediately around the caster than the chakra further out, which is why the mere aura of Susano'o without even the ribcage is not an especially impressive defense. And let's note that Gaara's sand was imploding bodies in Part I, so ripping things apart is par for the course.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> From perfect sages? Sage Jiraiya said against Pain that normal chakra sensing techniques don't cut it without vision, and Itachi's a hell of a lot more offensively dangerous than those paths.​


First off I was more referring to the fact that Tobirama can sense when Itachi is starts gathering chakra in his eye and simply avoid eye contact then. There is no reason for Tobirama to even have to stress himself over avoiding eye-contact the entire battle as he will know when Itachi is about to use a Dojutsu technique, he might even from experience know specifically when it's a Dojutsu-Genjutsu.

Second Tobirama's sensing skills have been displayed as insane. He was shown to sense down to a cellular level, recognize someone's clan from just their chakra, sense the location of Madara & Naruto's chakra from what a whole country away or something insane like that. So I'm pretty sure his sensing does not fall all that short of SM Kabuto.

Finally in the Jiraiya scan your posting, you need to learn how to read things in context, Jiraiya is referring to how the pains have been able to perfectly coordinate attacking and defending together without any wasted movement or giving each other any kind of verbal or physical cues to make each other aware of the attacks that thee others might not see. The focus is on the they part not the individual. The other focus is on J-man's attacks themselves. Jiraiya is confused because previously Human Path was totally blitz'd and could not defend himself well against his SM attacks, but suddenly he starts casually blocking them.

Additionally Jiraiya is not talking about avoiding eye-contact, but not being able to see the opponent whatsoever, which is not the same thing. But ultimately Jiriaya is not saying a skilled sensor can't fight with no sight, because we've seen that and Jiriaya was aware of Senjutsu, so he would not make that assertion. Again his assertion merely speaks towards that specific scenario with the coordination of the Pain bodies and them suddenly being able to react to attacks they couldn't initially.



> Because better sensors have sensed the immensely larger amount of chakra required for long ranged Amaterasu, Tobirama is going to preempt finger genjutsu? Okay.


This is a man who sensed down to the cellular level so him not being aware of extra chakra gathering on a part of Itachi's body is actually the ridiculous assertion here.



> He'll sense the Sharingan? And where was this ever shown?


He'll sense Shisui's Chakra/Doryoku if it's still in his Sharigan or he'll sense Itachi's chakra in the crows eye, it really doesn't matter which.



> It's strange how Tobirama decided to look at Sasuke's eyes to notice them instead of just feeling it with his apparent sage-level sensing.


Why bother chakra sensing something when your not throwing down for a fight and in the middle of a conversation. 

I mean this argument is so dumb that it's the same thing as asking why Tobirama wouldn't be proactively sensing when sitting on the crapper in his house.

People aren't always sensing 24/7, but if Tobirama is in a battle it's a totally different story.



> That's not a prerequisite, as Izanami is what decides the victim's fate. The caster of Izanami removes the free will of the victim by setting his own prerequisites for them to escape the jutsu.



"Once one accepts the real results of his actions without running away, Izanami’s loop will dissolve by itself"

Accepts the results of "his" actions Izanami dissolves. So no the caster can not simply decide the victims fate, whatever their fate is, is something decided by their own actions, Izanami merely prevents them from running away from that fate through the usage of one Jutsu or another.

"It is a technique that stops those who want to run away from reality by using a technique"

The reason it worked on Kabuto was because Kabuto was using a technique (Orochimaru fusion machine) to run away from the reality of who he was, convincing himself that to quote Itachi, "that other peoples’ power is his own power".

Tobirama is not using a technique to run away from reality due to not being able to accept the results of his actions, so again as Itachi says the loop would simply dissolve if initiated on him.

The Jutsu really only works against the villains of the series as they are really the only ones you see  not being able to accept the results of their actions and attempting to use Jutsu to alter their fate. It decides fate by forcing a character to accept their original fate, rather than the altered fate achieved by a technique.

Itachi-fans are simply trying to turn this Jutsu into something it's not, so it seems more practical in battle, but this really shouldn't be taken seriously when Itachi himself says the Jutsu is not practical in battle and was labeled a Kinjutsu for that reason. The fact we constantly get assertions of Izanami being this deadly battle ready technique that will work on anyone, really just shows that Itachi-fans don't give a shit about what their character's says/thinks or how his techniques/attributes are presented in a stylistically, and if a fandom doesn't care about those aspects of the character they supposedly are fan's off than they really aren't fans of that character, just fans of power/hax, which is a bit funny to me .


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## Sadgoob (Aug 2, 2013)

Turrin, bro. I need you to be more concise with me. Your Wall of Text no Jutsu is way too powerful a defense for me. With that said, I'll chip away it at my pace and pick up where I left off.​


Turrin said:


> I mean this argument is so dumb that it's the same thing as asking why Tobirama wouldn't be proactively sensing when sitting on the crapper in his house.
> 
> People aren't always sensing 24/7, but if Tobirama is in a battle it's a totally different story.



Which argument is dumb?​


Turrin said:


> Finally in the Jiraiya scan your posting, you need to learn how to read things in context



_"Even if all three are chakra-sensing types, without seeing the attacks, they shouldn't be able to form such perfect defenses."_ If you're arguing context, then show me some.

Where has a chakra sensor used the technique like you say? Did C predict every bit of chakra moving to Sasuke's eyes before going down? Did Zetsu see Chōjūrō's ninjutsu coming? Show me context.
​


Turrin said:


> If someone can invent and utilize:
> 
> Edo Tensei
> Tandem Explosive Tags
> ...



Basically, weaker prototypes of Hiraishin and Edo Tensei. He's no Minato or Kabuto. This shows that he conceptulaizes and creates well, but hasn't mastered it with _proficiency_.

On the other hand, Itachi being able to mold ninjutsu so quickly that the Sharingan, staring right at it, can barely tell that he isn't just holding shuriken is _virtuosic_ ninjutsu proficiency.​


Turrin said:


> I'm talking about the actual Ninja Art Area's indicate by the author in the DB. But if your seriously think Itachi using Tensha Fuuin displays better Fuuinjutsu skill than Tobirama inventing Hiraishin, The Seal Formula for Tandem Explosive Tags, and the Seal Tags for Edo Tensei, again this is:



I didn't say he was better. I said it shows that his proficiency is just as high. Don't underrate Obito being amazed by the new sealing methods, and he didn't even know about the crow.​


Turrin said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu feats are the most overhyped things on any area of the forum. Itachi's Genjutsu constantly touted as an instant One-shot technique and we're not ever talking Tsukuyomi or Izanami here;' we're talking Three Tome and Finger Genjutsu. Despite the list of the characters who even got trapped by it being



Yeah, who would have thought that the ability to remotely isolate a person from the real world and stealthily manipulate their actions into suicide would be seen as valuable in battle?

And it's not like Itachi showed that he could cast genjutsu, ninjutsu, and use weapons virtually simulataneously against Killer Bee, right? It's an _extremely_ broken skill subset that is overlooked.​


Turrin said:


> 1 & 2 are fodder compared to any Part II Skilled/Elite Jonin, not even Kage



Deidara was headhunted by an S-ranked (Kage) organization and Naruto could _easily_ contend with weaker Kages between Gamabunta, other giant toads, clones, and the Rasengan.​


Turrin said:


> Yet the perception of these techniques is that executing them against even shinobi who excel beyond the typical Kage level and many times have knowledge of Uchiha/Sharingan/Genjutsu is easy and they ensure instant victory for Itachi.



Killer Bee would have been defeated if not for having a genjutsu defense that far surpassed most Kage. Itachi's opponents always have top tier genjutsu defense abilities. Not basic chakra sensing.​


Turrin said:


> Itachi having a 4.5 gives Tobirama room to excel him and Sharingan's advantages are more than balanced by Tobirama's chakra sensing advantages.



Assuming that Tobirama has a 5/5 taijutsu score is a pretty huge assumption given that he has no feats. And even if he did, the Sharingan's precognition advantage is a bigger advantage.

C said clearly that using chakra sensing while fighting is scarcely possible. Sage Jiraiya also said sensing was no substitute for vision. Chakra sensors being able to do what Sage Kabuto did is unrealistic.​


Turrin said:


> Sickness has nothing to do with Taijutsu skill, it might effect physical areas, but not skill.



The word is technically "proficiency" and being a day from death could definitely affect taijutsu proficiency, along with strength proficiency and stamina. That seems pretty straightforward.

Zetsu, in speculating that Itachi had been severely injured before his battle with Itachi, shows the extreme degree Itachi's skills had depleted because of the sickness eating away at his body.​


Turrin said:


> Weapons skill seems to be factored into Taijutsu, which again we don't know who is better.



Weapon skill is ignored in the databook, because taijutsu refers to "empty-hand combat." And we do know who is better based on feats, and that someone is Itachi, quite comfortably.​


Turrin said:


> Plus let's try some commonsense, the dude is a Senju and the second strongest at that, so the dude's body strength is probably much higher than an Uchiha who became sick at a relatively young age and probably could not tone up his muscle strength all that efficiently, nor specializes in that  area, and is only a .5 above average according to the DB.



Senju and Uchiha were shown to be  in clashes of physical strength. And we've never seen Hashirama or Tobirama being said or shown to be physically stronger than Izuna or Madara.​


Turrin said:


> So to recap Itachi is better in Gen & I'll give him hand-seals to. We don't know with Taijutsu and so far they are comparable in intellect. Than Tobirama is better at everything else, which means drumroll....he's better in more ninja areas than Itachi



I'd say it's more like this:

*Ninjutsu:* Equal. Itachi's more proficient at executing it. Inventiveness isn't proficiency. Tobirama invented Edo Tensei and Hiraishin, but wasn't as proficient at using them.

*Fūinjutsu:* Equal. Itachi amazed Obito with his fūinjutsu. 'Nuff said. Amazing Obito implies that his proficiency is plenty high enough for them to be equal, even if the jutsu is less useful than Hiraishin.

*Genjutsu:* Itachi. Shikaku basically thought that Itachi was the best genjutsu manipulator, and Ao confirmed that Itachi was the only one he knew that could work minor genjutsu miracles.

*Seals:* Itachi. Kakashi said Itachi's so fast at molding that most people would only see him holding shuriken while he's actually molding jutsu faster than even the Sharingan can properly see.

*Weapons:* Itachi. Kabuto saying Itachi was "so skilled" that he could blind a bunch of Rinnegans through their blindspots is plenty. Sasuke needing a lightning-draw counter is also solid.

*Taijutsu:* Equal. Assuming Tobirama has a 5/5 proficiency is even more unwarranted than assuming healthy Itachi had that proficiency. The Sharingan is also more advantageous than chakra sensing.

*Strength:* Equal. Itachi has better feats. Assuming Tobirama or Hashirama were physically stronger than their Uchiha rivals ignores multiple instances showing equal physical clashes.

*Speed:* Equal. Not counting Hiraishin. If you do count ninjutsu, then give Itachi the above strength category from partial Susano'o transformations since we might as well count his ninjutsu too. 

*Intelligence:* Equal. Itachi's overall intelligence is higher given his more varied feats and hype in this category. Tobirama's very inventive, but that's his sole claim to this category.

*Stamina:* Tobirama. Eh, he used mass Kage Bunshin. I don't really see even healthy Itachi using that, although that may speak more to Itachi's efficiency than his limitations since old Hiruzen did so.

*Medical:* Itachi. If Itachi had transplated Kakashi's Sharingan instead of Rin then he'd have epic crow-level stamina way back when. Itachi also treated his own disease.

So in ninja arts, I'm counting 4 Itachi, 1 Tobirama, and 6 ties where I was being lenient on Tobirama. I don't mind people arguing that he may lose to Tobirama, but Itachi's a better overall ninja.​


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## joshhookway (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Turrin, bro. I need you to be more concise with me. Your Wall of Text no Jutsu is way too powerful a defense for me. With that said, I'll chip away it at my pace and pick up where I left off.​
> 
> 
> Which argument is dumb?​
> ...



*Ninjutsu:* Tobirama. Edo Tensei, Strongest Suiton, and FTG is too much for Itachi to handle.

*Fūinjutsu:* Only Itachi has feats.

*Genjutsu:* Itachi. Tobirama doesn't use genjutsu.

*Seals:* Tobirama. He tagged Juubito. Itachi was getting handled by Kabuto.

*Weapons:* Tobirama. He killed a MS user with a sword.

*Taijutsu:* Tobirama. His pure chakra cracked walls.

*Strength:* Cannot be determined.

*Speed:* Tobirama. He tagged Juubito. Minato even commented on his speed.

*Intelligence:* Tobirama. He has years of experience on the battlefield and as hokage. 

*Stamina:* Tobirama. 

*Medical:* Cannot be determined.


Tobirama is the more well-rounded and superior shinobi.


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## Turrin (Aug 2, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Basically, weaker prototypes Hiraishin and Edo Tensei. He's no Minato or Kabuto. This shows that he conceptulaizes and creates well, but hasn't mastered it with raw proficiency.


No it shows that he is so vastly proficient in Ninjutsu that he was able to not just use but invent some of the best jutsu in the manga. You pointing out that two other Ninja who are also more proficient than Itachi with Ninjutsu each being able to take 1 of Jutsu Tobirama invented each and over a course of many years (over 60 in Orochimaru's case) eventually gain greater proficiency with that technique, only is further proof of how insane Tobirama's proficiency was.



> On the other hand, Itachi being able to mold ninjutsu so quickly that the Sharingan, staring right at it, can barely tell that he isn't just holding shuriken is virtuosic ninjutsu proficiency.


Your talking about Hand-seal proficiency not Ninjutsu proficiency. Itachi Ninjutsu are cast quickly because he can form his hand-seals so quickly. As for molding Jutsu so quickly Tobirama was able to use Water Dragon Jutsu, a Jutsu that takes 43 plus hand-seals normally, with a single hand-seal, so he's better than Itachi there as well.



> I didn't say he was better. I said it shows that his proficiency is just as high. Don't underrate Obito being amazed by the new sealing methods, and he didn't even know about the crow.


Obito wasn't amazed by the skill it took, he was amazed by the planning. 

This is just silly Tobirama invented Hiraishin, Edo Tensei (which makes use of Fuda), and Tandem Explosive Tags (which relies on a seal formula). There is no way in hell just using 1 Fuuinjutsu is enough to put Itachi on par with that.



> Yeah, who would have thought that the ability to completely isolate a person from the real world or manipulate their actions like he did to Deidara would be seen as valuable in battle?


There is a difference in battle value and something being treated as a 1-hit-OKO technique against everyone in the manga. Kishi understands the distinction since he hasn't had Finger Genjutsu or Three Tome Genjutsu be effective in god knows how long.



> And it's not like Itachi showed that he could cast genjutsu, ninjutsu, and use weapons virtually simulataneously against Killer Bee, right? It's an extremely broken skill subset that is overlooked.


I don't consider someone trapped, if they easily dispel the Genjutsu a moment later and than proceed to casually block Itachi's next attack as if they were never in it in the first place.. 

So simply put, you can  me a river if you think Itachi's Genjutsu is underestimated.



> Deidara was in an S-ranked organization .


So were those fodder members Kakuzu off paneled, so was Zetsu who was defeated by Chojiro, & so was Hidan who got owned by Shikkamaru. 

Being in Akatsuki does not guarantee that you are even stronger than a great many top Jonin in Part II of this manga. 

Also it's not just about Deidara's strength level it's also about the fact that he was basically a young teen at that time who had so little battle experience he seemingly knew nothing about Sharingan or Uchiha. As soon as he learned about it he develop several counters that would make three tome and finger Genjutsu a total bitch to execute against him.



> Naruto could easily contend with weaker Kages at the time between Gamabunta and his powerful ninjutsu and clone tactics.


LOL, Naruto at the time even with Sakura's help had to use a silly trick just to take some bells from a Kakashi who was fing around. So no he's not winning against any Kages or even any Top Jonin.



> Killer Bee would have been defeated if not for having a genjutsu defense that far surpassed most Kage. Itachi's opponents always have top tier genjutsu defense abilities. Not basic chakra sensing.


This is such a horrible argument. Why? Because if Killer B doesn't have Hachibi than he'd be a totally different Ninja, where we don't know how strong he'd be or how he'd act in that situation. 

So all this is, is basically you saying, well if I take away a characters Genjutsu defense than they loose to Genjutsu, which it's like okay yeah no duh, but that's as ridiculous as if I take away Itachi's defenses to a Kunai he looses to a Kunai 



> Assuming that Tobirama has a 5/5 taijutsu score is a pretty huge assumption given that he has no feats.


LOL I didn't assume anything, just that I wouldn't be surprised if he did. You seem to have missed how I said we don't know multiple times in that post.



> And even if he did, the Sharingan's precognition advantage is a bigger advantage.


Why is it a bigger advantage?



> Besides, C said clearly that it's hardly possible to use the chakra sensing technique when focusing in the middle of battle. Sages are the exception to the rule because that sensing is on another level.


C says it would be hard for HIM to scan the entire area looking for other members of Sasuke's brigade and fight at the same time. That tells us nothing about using Sensing to fight, it only tells us about using sensing to track someone completely unrelated to the fight, makes it hard for C to fight. Which again is a no duh statement on your part, because obviously if C is trying to focus on tracking someone whose not in the fight down with his sensing, than not only is he going to loose focus on the fight itself, but he won't be able to focus on using his sensing to keep track of his opponents.

Plus why the hell are we comparing C to Tobirama, again this is an instance of hey let's reduce one of the top ninja in the manga to a far inferior level so Itachi can win.

It's like the same logic as oh man Sasuke with Sharingan perception was manhandled by Chuunin Exam's Lee's Taijutsu, I guess Itachi would also get manhandled by Chuunin exam's Lee 



> The word is technically "proficiency" and being a day from death could definitely affect taijutsu proficiency, along with strength proficiency and stamina. That seems pretty straightforward.
> 
> Zetsu, in speculating that Itachi had been severely injured before his battle with Itachi, shows the extreme degree Itachi's skills had depleted because of the sickness eating away at his body.


I really don't care to get into a prolonged healthy Itachi discussion here, because to me such a discussion would be stupid. Because we don't know if a healthy Itachi ever existed with the same knowledge/exp/etc..., we don't know what areas it effected him in such as Taijutsu or by how much, and we don't know if sickness was accounted for in the DB stats.

So all this discussion does is add on more unknowns, which arrives us at the same conclusion I already came to that we don't know whose better in Taijutsu.



> I weapon skill is ignored, because taijutsu means "empty hand combat." And we do know who is better based on feats, and that someone is Itachi quite comfortably.


Nope Kishi applies a broader definition to Taijutsu than that to include weapons. How do I know well that's pretty easy; Asuma's Hein with chakra knives is consider Taijutsu, so is Choji's spiked human bolder technique which uses Kunai, For shit's sake so fricken Kimi's moves where he uses his spinal colume as a whip, creates bone projectiles, creates bone swords,  and creates a giant bone spear.



> Senju and Uchiha were shown to be equal in clashes of physical strength.


Can't see your link



> And we've never seen Hashirama or Tobirama being said or shown to be physically stronger than Izuna or Madara.


Who cares? Maybe Madara and Izuna were the outliers. Maybe they were inferior. Oh and SM Hashirama > Madara in strength, so yes he was. Tobirama doesn't have SM (to our knowledge), but  i'm just saying relatively speaking Senju/Uzamaki tend to get superior physical attributes to Uchiha besides speed, since Sharingan hax helps out there.

I'm just saying it's guy whose been sickly all his life vs guy who was born into a clan of physical beasts according to the manga. To me it's common sense whose likely to be better here, but fortunately we don't even need to rely on that since Tobirama's wall cracking feat by just resting his hand on it far excels anything Itachi's shown anyway.



> I'd say it's more like this:


Since your also the one who said there is nothing Minato could ever show that would make him stronger than Itachi in your eyes, despite me listing insane shit like him getting a Perfect SM or Beast Mode out of nowhere, and you still didn't think that would confirm Minato as stronger than him, I really don't take your opinion seriously though. I don't believe you will ever be able to accept someone excels in more areas than Itachi, besides maybe and this is a big maybe Rikudo. Heck I think if Kishi released DB IV and Kishi had Tobirama's stats be all 5's you'd still ether argue Kishi is wrong in the DB or that some nonsensical way Itachi still has better stats.


I'm not trying to be dick because I think your a good poster in other ways and are great in the KC, it's just when it comes to this one subject ether you are too biased to think straight or can't help but troll, I'm not sure which, probably a combo. Which is why I typically steer clear of discussing Itachi with you, I only have been doing so thus far because  once in awhile it's funny just to see the shit Itachi-fans come up with, also had a slow day


----------



## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 3, 2013)

I am starting to see Tobirama as perfect counter to Itachi. No one can say for definite that Itachi wins, especially with low/mid difficulty knowing Tobirama already defeated an MS user before who was hailed to be as strong as MS Madara. 

*Ninjutsu:* Tobirama.
By hype and feats, Tobirama is the strongest Ninjutsu user. He has created the most powerful ninjutsu in the manga, Edo Tensei. It doesn't make any difference if his is weaker than Orochimaru's or Kabuto's since his purpose and method is different. Tobirama specifically stated that he created tactics to go with Edo Tensei, this tactic turns out to be better version Konan's jutsu. These combinations of jutsu's makes him a top tier ninjutsu user. Itachi also has several hax ninjutsu up his sleeves but they have requirements and risks that is higher than Tobirama's.

*Taijutsu:* Itachi.
Itachi has superior feats.

*Genjutsu:* Itachi.
Only Itachi shown feats in this field.

*Seal:* Equal.
Itachi has the fastest hand seal but Tobirama has the ability to shorten 40+ seals into one, now I don't know how people determine the seal requirements. I am basing this on how long it takes them to perform jutsu. Itachi is the fastest while Tobirama only requires one hand seal to perform jutsu. 

The rest is common sense.

*Fuinjutsu:* Itachi.
*Weapon:* Itachi.
*Strength:* Tobirama.
*Speed:* Tobirama.
*Intelligence:* Itachi.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

@Kakashi Hatake

How is Tobirama inferior to Itachi in Fuuinjutsu? Tobirama invented Hiraishin, which is part Fuuinjutsu. He also invented Edo Tensei which means he at least created a base Seal Tag to go with it (not the one Orochimaru invented to turn them into mindless zombies, but still). Tandem Explosive Tags also relies on a Seal formula embedded in the tags that releases not only the detonation, but the Kuchiyose effect, so that is another thing he invented in the Fuuin department.

Itachi showed he can use a pretty good Fuuinjutsu in the form of Transcription Seal, however that is a single Fuuinjutsu, which I don't think he invented. 

So that does not seem better than Tobirama's display to me in regards to Fuuinjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 3, 2013)

Why don't you think Itachi invented Tensha Fūin or the crow sealing? Obito had no knowledge of it or how it was accomplished despite Madara teaching him pretty much everything he knew.

Plus, if we're stubborn about crediting inventions, I don't _think_ it was actually said that Tobirama invented Hiraishin. For all we know he bummed the concept off an Uzamaki whom he was familiar with.  

Ditto for tandem explosive or whatever. Granted, I actually do think Tobirama invented both jutsu, but I'm just pointing out that it's not necessarily a certainty that he did it, or started from scratch.​


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## Antos (Aug 3, 2013)

Ninjutsu: Itachi here why edo takes prep sure he might have some zombies stashed away but he has yet summon them out for use.  Itachi's most Dangerous moves  take little to no prep what so ever.

Taijutsu: Both 

Genjutsu: Itachi.
to argue this would make me lose all respect.  The guy was classified as  a level and the only one person could be better.

Seal: Equal.
this reason
Itachi has the fastest hand seal but Tobirama has the ability to shorten 40+ seals into one, now I don't know how people determine the seal requirements. I am basing this on how long it takes them to perform jutsu. Itachi is the fastest while Tobirama only requires one hand seal to perform jutsu.

Fuinjutsu: Itachi.
Weapon: Itachi.
Strength: Tobirama.  Senju
Speed: Tobirama.
Intelligence: Itachi. Saru's statement he has known all the hokages and compared itachi's wisdom to theres


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Why don't you think Itachi invented Tensha Fūin or the crow sealing? Obito had no knowledge of it or how it was accomplished despite Madara teaching him pretty much everything he knew.
> 
> Plus, if we're stubborn about crediting inventions, I don't _think_ it was actually said that Tobirama invented Hiraishin. For all we know he bummed the concept off an Uzamaki whom he was familiar with.
> 
> Ditto for tandem explosive or whatever. Granted, I actually do think Tobirama invented both jutsu, but I'm just pointing out that it's not necessarily a certainty that he did it, or started from scratch.​


There's no reason to think he invented it. No one calls it Itachi's Jutsu or says it's original to him. Itachi's never been presented as a person who invents Jutsu ether. The DB also says the "user" of the technique not just "Itachi", so that further implies there is more than one user. When did Obito say he had no knowledge of it, if anything he seemed to know exactly what happened, which would imply he did have knowledge of it.

In the case of Hiraishin and Tandem Explosive Tags we actually have reason to believe Tobirama invented those Jutsu, really good reasons.


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## Kisame (Aug 3, 2013)

What is Tobirama's answer to Tsukiyomi?


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## Sadgoob (Aug 3, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The DB also says the "user" of the technique not just "Itachi", so that further implies there is more than one user.



It lists Itachi as the only user of the jutsu.​


Turrin said:


> There's no reason to think he invented it. No one calls it Itachi's Jutsu or says it's original to him.



When Obito said "somehow" it implied he did not know how it was done despite knowing virtually every other jutsu involving the Sharingan thanks to Madara. Hence it's probably Itachi's innovation.

Furthermore, Obito watched the video of Itachi and Sasuke's battle and didn't predict the possibility, so I think that sealing was unique. Also, the crow sealing through genjutsu also seems unique, no?​


Turrin said:


> Itachi's never been presented as a person who invents Jutsu ether.



That's debatable. Shikaku, Nagato, Ao, and Itachi indicated that he possessed unique genjutsu techniques. It's also likely he was the first one to transplant dōjutsu into an animal for the animal's use.

I'm also fairly sure he's the only ninja to use summons to make clones, which he seemed to invent or take up after his body became weakened from sickness (he used Kage Bunshin in part one.)​


Turrin said:


> In the case of Hiraishin and Tandem Explosive Tags we actually have reason to believe Tobirama invented those Jutsu, really good reasons.



Enlighten me as to why he couldn't have adapted Uzamaki seals? From what I can tell, its attributed to him because he's the earliest known user, much like Itachi is for the jutsu I mentioned.​


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

@Strategoob

1. DB only list who have used the Jutsu so far
2. Where did Obito say "somehow" I don't remember reading that in the trans I've seen
3. He didn't predict it because he didn't expect Itachi to plan that far ahead, that was explained in the manga
4. Ao & comp never indicated unique jutsu Itachi invented they just praised Itachi's skill
5. Whether it's an animal or not doesn't matter the Dojutsu transfer ( I don't know if it's even a tech) has been around for a long time
6.Crow Clone may have been made by Itachi who knows, but if it was it's a C-Rank Tech, which doesn't make Itachi seem like some brilliant inventor type to me
7.It would be strange dialog if Tobirama says Minato is copying him, when Tobirama is copying someone else. It's also made unlikely he copied Hiraishin off the Uzamaki since he invented it before Uzamaki allied with the Senju


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## Kisame (Aug 3, 2013)

Kisame is a better Jutsu inventor than Itachi, look at the beauty of Daikodan, Senjikizame, Suiro: Sameodori, etc.


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## Turrin (Aug 3, 2013)

Shark said:


> Kisame is a better Jutsu inventor than Itachi, look at the beauty of Daikodan, Senjikizame, Suiro: Sameodori, etc.


There seems to be a whole race of Shark People in the Mist, so It seems likely that those Jutsu could just be Shark people Jutsu, instead of being unique to Kisame. Though Kisame probably could use them on a way higher scale than most Shark people.


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## Kisame (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> There seems to be a whole race of Shark People in the Mist, so It seems likely that those Jutsu could just be Shark people Jutsu, instead of being unique to Kisame. Though Kisame probably could use them on a way higher scale than most Shark people.



Not really, maybe Kisame was the first Sharkman.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 4, 2013)

Was there a whole race? I know Samehada's previous owner was shark-like too. Were fodder shark-people shown in the war?​


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Was there a whole race? I know Samehada's previous owner was shark-like too. Were fodder shark-people shown in the war?​


Do I really have to explain where babies come from to you guys? Well when a mommy and daddy shark person love each other very much, one of them lays eggs or something, wait how does this work with sharks?

But the point is Kisame was a shark person before Samehada and it's not implied Fuguki is related to Kisame, so you need several sets of parent shark people to give birth to Fuguki and Kisame, which means there has to be a race of Shark people, no matter how small it is.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Kakashi Hatake
> 
> How is Tobirama inferior to Itachi in Fuuinjutsu? Tobirama invented Hiraishin, which is part Fuuinjutsu. He also invented Edo Tensei which means he at least created a base Seal Tag to go with it (not the one Orochimaru invented to turn them into mindless zombies, but still). Tandem Explosive Tags also relies on a Seal formula embedded in the tags that releases not only the detonation, but the Kuchiyose effect, so that is another thing he invented in the Fuuin department.
> 
> ...



I found Itachi's skill in Fuuinjutsu more impressive since it seems like anybody can do what Tobirama can in Fuuinjutsu.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Do I really have to explain where babies come from to you guys? Well when a mommy and daddy shark person love each other very much, one of them lays eggs or something, wait how does this work with sharks?
> 
> But the point is Kisame was a shark person before Samehada and it's not implied Fuguki is related to Kisame, so you need several sets of parent shark people to give birth to Fuguki and Kisame, which means there has to be a race of Shark people, no matter how small it is.



I think it's more likely Kisame and the older swordsman mastered the same kinjutsu. It would be like an older person having tongues in his hands because he used the same forbidden kinjutsu as Deidara.

It's probably what grants Kisame his Gai-stomping strength and chakra absorbtion abilities.​


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## Kisame (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Do I really have to explain where babies come from to you guys? Well when a mommy and daddy shark person love each other very much, one of them lays eggs or something, wait how does this work with sharks?
> 
> But the point is Kisame was a shark person before Samehada and it's not implied Fuguki is related to Kisame, so you need several sets of parent shark people to give birth to Fuguki and Kisame, which means there has to be a race of Shark people, no matter how small it is.


How do you figure Fuguki was a sharkman? From what I remember he just had sharp teeth (like all swordsmen do).

Also, what I'm saying is that Kisame was the first person to be "born a shark", maybe it's genetic or whatever. Or that he mastered a Kinjutsu (like Deidara's) sometime later in his life.


Strategoob said:


> I think it's more likely Kisame and the older swordsman mastered the same kinjutsu. It would be like an older person having tongues in his hands because he used the same forbidden kinjutsu as Deidara.
> 
> It's probably what grants Kisame his Gai-stomping strength and chakra absorbtion abilities.​


Yeah, probably.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> I found Itachi's skill in Fuuinjutsu more impressive since it seems like anybody can do what Tobirama can in Fuuinjutsu.


We've never seen anybody be able to replicate the seal formula for Tandem Explosive Tags. We have only seen Minato be able to use Hiraishin on his own. We've only seen Orochimaru and Kabuto be able to use Edo Tensei. 

I would not call Minato, Orochimaru, and Kabuto "anybody"



Strategoob said:


> I think it's more likely Kisame and the older swordsman mastered the same kinjutsu. It would be like an older person having tongues in his hands because he used the same forbidden kinjutsu as Deidara.
> 
> It's probably what grants Kisame his Gai-stomping strength and chakra absorbtion abilities.​


Maybe but if it's a Kinjutsu that other people have used before we still arrive at the same conclusion that there are shark people running around and we don't know if they or Kisame invented the Shark Style Water Ninjutsu


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## KnightGhost (Aug 4, 2013)

Itachi is the most advanced Fuuinjutsu user in the manga.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> We've never seen anybody be able to replicate the seal formula for Tandem Explosive Tags. We have only seen Minato be able to use Hiraishin on his own. We've only seen Orochimaru and Kabuto be able to use Edo Tensei.
> 
> I would not call Minato, Orochimaru, and Kabuto "anybody"



Anybody can learn Edo Tensei, Kabuto and Orochimaru seal tag is superior than Tobirama's.

If Kabuto can learn it then anyone can learn it as well. By anyone, I of course mean Jonin's that have moderate intelligence score.

The seals Itachi uses looks complex in a way that means not many shinobis can learn it.

Regardless, it does not matter who has more skill in this area. Both are excellent in seals, I just see Itachi's as superior due to the complexity.


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## Yagura (Aug 4, 2013)

I thought Kabuto could only use Edo Tensei because of Orochimaru's powers?


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Anybody can learn Edo Tensei


This is based on what exactly?

1. Edo Tensei requires the usage of what looks to me like a very complex Fuuinjutsu formula:
barely
barely
barely

Than another Fuda is required to be planted into the Tensei to command them:
barely

2. It's also stated to be S-Rank in it's acquisition difficulty in the DB. 

3.The only Ninja whose shown the ability to learn it is Orochimaru, which Tobirama indicate is really something extraordinary, even when he only showed Part I level Edo Tensei. Orochimaru is not only one of the best Ninjutsu users in the entire manga, but he's shown high skill with Fuuinjutsu as well. He invented curse seal, invented Shikokumujin, could use  Five Elements type Fuuinjutsu to tamper with Naruto's Hakke Seal, & most likely knew Hōin seals as he's the only one who could have taught Sasuke and he showed recognition of the seals. Even Kabuto a very skilled Ninja in his own right only showed the ability to use it after stealing Orochimaru's abilities and powers. 



> Kabuto and Orochimaru seal tag is superior than Tobirama's.



The implication of the manga is that learning Edo Tensei requires great skill, & Tobirama didn't just learn it but invented it.



> Kabuto and Orochimaru seal tag is superior than Tobirama's.


The seal tag Orochimaru used is most likely the same one Tobirama used, since the Anbu explained the erasing of the personalities via the Fuda as a basic mechanic of Edo Tensei, despite this being the first time seeing Orochimaru utilize the technique:
is really something extraordinary
is really something extraordinary

Kabuto was displayed the usage of a another tag, that does not lock away the Tensei's personalities, though whether he invented it or not is unclear. Also it's unclear if that tag is any better than the one Orochimaru and Tobirama utilize, since quite a-lot of problems were caused in the war by the Tensei maintaining their personalities and many times Kabuto had to mind erase them anyway.



> If Kabuto can learn it then anyone can learn it as well. By anyone, I of course mean Jonin's that have moderate intelligence score.


Since when has Kabuto such fodder that any moderately intelligent Jonin can replicate his feats? Kabuto's a genius Ninja whose trained alongside a Sannin and Snake Sages, whose shown the intelligence to manipulate things on a DNA level. Though again he only showed Edo Tensei after absorbing Orochimaru's power and abilities, so it's not like he learned the Jutsu himself anyway, though I find it bit ridiculous how much your underestimating Kabuto.



> The seals Itachi uses looks complex in a way that means not many shinobis can learn it.


Itachi show one seal type, basically a seal that releases an Jutsu when a certain condition is met. It's a good seal for traps, but I don't see anything indicating it's as complex as inventing the Fuuin Formulas for Hiraishin, Edo Tensei, and Tandem Explosive Tags. I mean even if we say it's as complex a Fuuin as one of these techniques, that still means Tobirama has 3 equally complex Fuuin he can't just use but invented, while Itachi has only shown one he can use.



> Regardless, it does not matter who has more skill in this area. Both are excellent in seals, I just see Itachi's as superior due to the complexity


I agree the area doesn't matter and should be rolled into Ninjutsu as was my point to Strategoob, but still it's just perplexing to me that someone can invent the Fuuin Formula for 2 S-Rank Top Ninjutsu in the manga and Tandem Explosive Tags (which is probably S-Rank too), and still be inferior to someone who showed he can use 1 Fuuinjutsu of really unknown difficulty to learn.


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## Kisame (Aug 4, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Itachi is the most advanced Fuuinjutsu user in the manga.


I doubt that, I'd say Minato and possibly Jiraiya/Orochimaru are better.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> The Itachi wanking needs to stop. The idea that Itachi wins with low-mid difficulty is ridiculous. Tobirama has displayed a counter to every single one of Itachi's Jutsu.
> 
> 
> Suitons > Katons
> ...



Agreed. Though I'd like to add that FTG is actually a way around Susanoo, to be more precise. So should Itachi walk over a marked location, or get Susanoo branded with a seal, he's screwed. 

If Tobirama tags the surroundings well enough, Itachi could actually axed via Hiraishingiri. Just like Izuna was.



> The only area's Itachi may be better than Tobirama at besides Genjutsu are Hand-seals and Taijutsu, but even than Taijutsu is extremely doubtful.



Agreed again. Just note that Karin showed that sensors can tell if they're under Genjutsu. So being better than Tobirama at casting Genjutsu won't necessarily be an advantage.



> People are saying he can't spread FTG Markers around as quickly as Minato, which is true, but it's not like it will take him a long time to create a KB he can teleport to and than him and the KB start marking various strategic locations. It's also not like Itachi is fast enough where he can blitz Tobirama if he takes somewhat longer to spread FTG makers than an absolute speed beast like Minato.



Agreed again. Though I'd like to add that without maintaining a powerful barrier, Tobirama isn't constrained with the amount of clones he can make. This could mean a lot. Especially as Itachi's Sharingan is incapable of telling between Kage Bunshins and the users.



> On the flip-side of this Itachi has not shown confirmed counters to all of Tobirama's Jutsu.
> 
> 
> He hasn't demonstrated the ability to react to FTG or Hiraishingiri, especially LV 2
> ...



I agree with most of your points. Unless Itachi is a sensor who _*also *_happens to have very fast reactions, or special jutsu that could be used to counter Hiraishin... then a hit from FTG/Hiraishingiri means he's out.

When discussing Susanoo's tanking feats, you've got to have a particular Susanoo form in mind. The basic forms like the ribcage form, or the skeletal form probably wouldn't tank the Gofuki jutsu. Though it is undoubted that the forms above it likely will. 



> People say Gofuki is a suicide technique but it really isn't. A KB or an Edo Tensei can use it with zero danger and even Tobirama can use it with FTG if he's careful enough w/o dying.
> 
> Anyway the only thing that may be able to defend against these abilities is Susano'o, but Susano'o can be teleported away with FTG so even than it's not a perfect defense. Ultimately it than comes down to if Tobirama can get a FTG marker or KB close enough to Itachi to warp Susano'o away and deploy his attack.



Very true.

I know a lot will argue passionately that Susanoo cannot be warped away from Itachi. However like it or not, Hiraishin users can choose what they teleport. For instance Minato was able to teleport Kurama away just because he was touching him in some way; he didn't need to teleport Gamabunta. 
In a similar vein, if Tobirama simply touches Susanoo, he can teleport it away without needing to teleport Itachi. Though Tobirama could alternatively teleport Itachi without needing to teleport Susanoo alongside him.
Hiraishin users simply have total control over who they choose to teleport, provided they're touching the target in some way.



> Than Edo Tensei adds another interesting aspect to his match up. Having multiple Tensei Tobirama can tag with FTG Markers and can deploy Gofuki Explosive Tags, that Itachi needs Stage 4 Susano'o with Totsuka Sword to seal, are always going to add a much greater degree of difficulty to the match, no matter what Tensei Tobirama summons.
> 
> However depending on how strong the Tensei are and what abilities they have they could be even more troublesome for Itachi than that, especially since Tobirama can use FTG to create combo attacks with them allowing them to deploy their Jutsu at a much faster rate than they normally could. But this part is totally speculation until we get some confirmation on what type of Tensei he summoned or the OP stipulates who he can summon.
> 
> So Tobirama even w/o Edo Tensei can beat Itachi and if Itachi did manage to pull out a win there is no way it's with anything short of extremely high difficulty. With Edo Tensei I give Tobirama by far the better chances of winning.



Indeed you're right. 

Though it is worth noting that Tobirama's Edo Tensei probably would be beneath the standard Orochimaru used the jutsu in part 1 (strength wise). However the Gofuki and Hiraishin jutsu more than compensate for that.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 4, 2013)

That was top of the line circlejerking, Munboy. Nice.

Anyway, Itachi was hyped to be able to manipulate with genjutsu without sensors noticing, so I doubt Karen would be able to decipher his genjutsu immediately if at all.​


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## Trojan (Aug 4, 2013)

Turrin said:


> People say Gofuki is a suicide technique but it really isn't. A KB or an Edo Tensei can use it with zero danger and even Tobirama can use it with FTG if he's careful enough w/o dying.



I disagree. 
Kurama

He putted his hand his heart? (So to speak) if he weren't an Edo, he would have been died. 
And a clone will poof if that happened. However, you're right about using it with Edo.


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## Turrin (Aug 4, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> I disagree.
> barely
> 
> He putted his hand his heart? (So to speak) if he weren't an Edo, he would have been died.
> And a clone will poof if that happened. However, you're right about using it with Edo.


He just stored the Tandem Explosive Tags in his chest because he was an Edo Tensei, there's no reason he has to do that.


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## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2013)

Shark said:


> I doubt that, I'd say Minato and possibly Jiraiya/Orochimaru are better.



Itachi doesn't even use seals in fuuinjutsu he is in his own tier.

Also being the best=/=being the most advanced


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> Itachi doesn't even use seals in fuuinjutsu he is in his own tier.



Minato & Tobirama don't require seals for Hiraishin, and Minato has sealed things like the Nine-Tails without legendary weapons.



> Also being the best=/=being the most advanced



Having a Sword that does it for you =/= Being the most advanced.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 5, 2013)

Lets wait 2 more days to see if Tobirama will get any new feats to make this match up a bit interesting. As of now, it is one sided.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 5, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lets wait 2 more days to see if Tobirama will get any new feats to make this match up a bit interesting. As of now, it is one sided.



The bad thing is, its hard to get new feats on a ninja that is so superior to everyone else on the battlefield. If Tobirama actually does something good but doesn't work, people will disregard it as usual.


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## KnightGhost (Aug 5, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Minato & Tobirama don't require seals for Hiraishin,



All there fuuinjustu need steals stop trolling  Hiraishin will not even work without seals you need to brush up on your manga thats why then both need to tag.




> Minato has sealed things like the Nine-Tails without legendary weapons.




Im not sure why this matters? *who cares itachi can seal without Dieing or the help of a women.*



> Having a Sword that does it for you =/= Being the most advanced.



And what about the Crow in genjsutu that got sealed in naruto at will and the Ama Seal that itachi did with 2 fingers without anybody knowing?

Having death god seal for you=/=being good at sealing NOW GTFO what a sad try at a troll this was.


Trying to act has if the median that the user uses to cast the seal is irrelevant


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## Rocky (Aug 5, 2013)

KnightGhost said:


> All there fuuinjustu need steals stop trolling  Hiraishin will not even work without seals you need to brush up on your manga thats why then both need to tag.



Thought you meant handseals.




> Im not sure why this matters? *who cares itachi can seal without Dieing or the help of a women.*



Minato didn't have to die to seal the Nine-Tails. Using the Shiki Fuuin was his choice, made so Kushina could live.

By the way, get back to me when Itachi seals something like the Kyubi.



> And what about the Crow in genjsutu that got sealed in naruto at will and the Ama Seal that itachi did with 2 fingers without anybody knowing?



Those are nothing more than cute compared to Minato's Fuinjutsu feats.



> Having death god seal for you=/=being good at sealing NOW GTFO what a sad try at a troll this was. Trying to act has if the median that the user uses to cast the seal is irrelevant



Shiki Fuuin is the sealing Jutsu Minato uses. He activates it.

Itachi stabs someone with a legendary sword, and it proceeds to seal the target. He isn't the thing doing the actual sealing.


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## Vice (Aug 5, 2013)

Sealing a small crow > sealing a bijuu bomb? Hilarious.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> This is based on what exactly?
> 
> 1. Edo Tensei requires the usage of what looks to me like a very complex Fuuinjutsu formula:
> states that kamui creates a barrier around the target
> ...



Orochimaru said Edo Tensei wasn't very complicated. Kabuto explained how to use Edo Tensei in couple of panels. So it does seem like anyone can use it if they have the knowledge and resource Kabuto did. 

Kabuto only got powerful after getting Orochimaru's DNA and mastering Sage Mode. Before that he was hyped to be on part 1 Kakashi level. But based on feats he was weaker than Part 1 Kakashi.

Hirashin and Exploding Tag is the only contender for top score in Fuuinjutsu. What I would say is that sealing a crow into Naruto to activate with the command he set after is death is one of the most impressive technique I have seen. A sealing technique that works after death and then we have him sealing amaterasu while he is near to death with just a tap on Sasuke's forehead. Obito was even impressed by it.


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> Orochimaru said Edo Tensei wasn't very complicated. .


When did he say that and what was the context, because everything in the manga indicates this is not true. I mean you seem to be ignoring the three major pieces of evidence I showed you that support this Jutsu being extremely hard to master. 



> Kabuto explained how to use Edo Tensei in couple of panels.


Explaining how to do it doesn't mean that person can do it. Itachi can explain any of his Jutsu he wants to any random fodder it doesn't mean they'd be able to do it.



> Kabuto only got powerful after getting Orochimaru's DNA and mastering Sage Mode. Before that he was hyped to be on part 1 Kakashi level.


Being on par with Kakashi in genius is no small feat. 



> Hirashin and Exploding Tag is the only contender for top score in Fuuinjutsu. What I would say is that sealing a crow into Naruto to activate with the command he set after is death is one of the most impressive technique I have seen. A sealing technique that works after death and then we have him sealing amaterasu while he is near to death with just a tap on Sasuke's forehead. Obito was even impressed by it.


Edo Tensei's Fuuin still works after death. Tandem Explosive Tags Fuuin would still work after death. Hiraishin's Fuuin markers still stay in place after the users death.

Obito was impressed by the planning. And honestly a Fuuin that simply set to release an effect when a certain condition is met seems basically the same to me a s Tandem Explosive Tags as it also has a Fuuin which releases an effect when a certain condition is met. However when compared to bring back and control the dead Fuuin or move someone in an out of another dimension Fuuin, it doesn't seem that amazing to me. 

It also seems less impressive to me because Tobirama invented these things, something I see people ignoring.


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 5, 2013)

Turrin said:


> When did he say that and what was the context, because everything in the manga indicates this is not true. I mean you seem to be ignoring the three major pieces of evidence I showed you that support this Jutsu being extremely hard to master.



When he summoned the four Hokages, Tobirama was surprised Orochimaru could use it so easily. Orochimaru response was that it wasn't very complicated. The user of the jutsu thinks its not very complicated to use and then we have someone showing us how to perform this jutsu in couple of panels. 



> Explaining how to do it doesn't mean that person can do it. Itachi can explain any of his Jutsu he wants to any random fodder it doesn't mean they'd be able to do it.



The difference is Kabuto actually showed Obito how to use the jutsu step by step while explaining it. The process is not very complicated if you have the resources and the knowledge, that was implied when he was showing it to Obito.


> Being on par with Kakashi in genius is no small feat.



From what I recall, he was on par with Kakashi in ability, not genius.


> Edo Tensei's Fuuin still works after death. Tandem Explosive Tags Fuuin would still work after death. Hiraishin's Fuuin markers still stay in place after the users death.



Edo Tensei does work after death but the process is not complicated. The Tandem Explosive Tags complexity is completely unknown. Seem like he sets one off and then a domino effect occurs where one sets/summons of another seal and so on. 



> Obito was impressed by the planning. And honestly a Fuuin that simply set to release an effect when a certain condition is met seems basically the same to me a s Tandem Explosive Tags as it also has a Fuuin which releases an effect when a certain condition is met. However when compared to bring back and control the dead Fuuin or move someone in an out of another dimension Fuuin, it doesn't seem that amazing to me.
> 
> It also seems less impressive to me because Tobirama invented these things, something I see people ignoring.



Exploding tag is not a trap where a condition has to be met, it is a jutsu that can be set of by Tobirama once in place at any time. Itachi's fuuinjutsu is superior in a way that he used it. He sealed Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye just by tapping his forehead while he was near death and out of chakra. That is impressive to me, more so then anything we have seen.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 5, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> That was top of the line circlejerking, Munboy. Nice.
> 
> Anyway, Itachi was hyped to be able to manipulate with genjutsu without sensors noticing, so I doubt Karen would be able to decipher his genjutsu immediately if at all.​



Except you misunderstood. Itachi can _control_ shinobi (shown to be weak minded ones) without sensors noticing. Casting other Genjutsu is another story altogether.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 5, 2013)

Those shinobi weren't weakminded. They wouldn't give up their life ambitions and commit suicide because a character in a pornographic novella was named after them. Those were _real_ shinobi.

​


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## Turrin (Aug 5, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> When he summoned the four Hokages, Tobirama was surprised Orochimaru could use it so easily. Orochimaru response was that it wasn't very complicated. The user of the jutsu thinks its not very complicated to use and then we have someone showing us how to perform this jutsu in couple of panels.


Dude i'm pretty sure Orochimaru is just being a braggart in that instance, considering all the information we have to supports it's not easy to use. I mean even in that scene Tobirama was impressed and i'm pretty sure Tobirama knows how easy his Jutsu is to use considering he invented it. 



> The difference is Kabuto actually showed Obito how to use the jutsu step by step while explaining it. The process is not very complicated if you have the resources and the knowledge, that was implied when he was showing it to Obito.


The process look complicated to me since you needed to know 2 different Fuuin, one of them looking excessively complex. And it's not like Obito showed he could use Edo Tensei after that scene.



> From what I recall, he was on par with Kakashi in ability, not genius.


In the Viz translation Kakashi states something along the lines of with someone of Kabuto's talent around he'll quickly be left behind when he confronts him in the hospital during CE. Though I don't need any statement really because it's common sense that. If Kabuto is 19 in Part I vs Kakashi who is 27 in Part I, & the two were equals that means Kabuto reached Kakashi's "level" in a far quicker amount of time than it took Kakashi. Kabuto's genius is also exhibited in his flashback where he was able to take on the duties of an elite double agent as a mere kid.



> Edo Tensei does work after death but the process is not complicated. The Tandem Explosive Tags complexity is completely unknown. Seem like he sets one off and then a domino effect occurs where one sets/summons of another seal and so on.


I was only point this out to illustrate that most Fuuinjutsu work after the person is dead, so that's not something unique to Itachi's Fuuin



> Exploding tag is not a trap where a condition has to be met, it is a jutsu that can be set of by Tobirama once in place at any time.


It is a trap where the condition needs to be met, the condition be Tobirama forming the right hand-sign. 



> He sealed Amaterasu into Sasuke's eye just by tapping his forehead while he was near death and out of chakra. That is impressive to me, more so then anything we have seen.


If he was out of chakra he couldn't do it. His planning is impressive to me since he made sure to have the chakra left. As for placing a fuuin with just a touch we've seen that as well many times in the manga, in-fact Tobirama does it every time he places a FTG marker.


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## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

What dudes don't understand is that Tobirama have to actually prep his techiniques while Itachi can simultaneously put a field of genjutsu layers around while making karasu bushin, kage bushin and attack with sharingan in a matter of seconds. He also was shown fighting KCM Naruto easily blocking all his attacks and dodging Bee sword dance... He is a problem.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 6, 2013)

While I think it is too early to really tell because we have not seen Tobirama fight one on one and more importantly we have not seen him fight the sharingan, I can safely say that Tobirama would win 7/10 times. My reasoning is quite simple: Tobirama has the better defense (hiraishin+sensing), more stamina while their offense are near equal. 

In my opinion, this fight comes down to cunning. Both characters have shown amazing in battle cunning skills. Both have the habit of using kage bunshin effectively. However, if Itachi can land tsukuyomi, he wins. Same thing with Tobirama, if he tags Itachi for FTG he wins. I think it will be easier for Itachi to be tagged than for him to genjutsu Tobirama.

*Itachi's Ninjutsu*

Base Itachi skills are not extraordinary. His suiton would fail against Tobirama who has more chakra than him. His katon would fail since suiton>katon. His exploding clone jutsu won't help much since Tobirama is a sensor and can retreat with shunshin or FTG. 

So, pretty quickly Itachi would have to switch to MS to have a chance. Amaterasu won't help much either because Tobirama is a sensor and has FTG. He can avoid amaterasu through teleportation. Same thing goes for susano'o-based attacks and magamatas. 

*Itachi's Genjutsu*

I am breaking out genjutsu as a separate category because it is the one area where Itachi is clearly superior to Tobirama. The truth is that we simply do not know how Tobirama would defend against the sharingan. Now, I would like to point out 3 three things. (1) Tobirama has extensive knowledge of the sharingan (2) Tobirama is extremely fast and speed makes it hard to genjutsu the opponent and (3) Tobirama uses clones. 

As we have seen the sharingan works wonders when you are fighting someone with zero knowledge of it (Zabuza, Deidara, etc.). However, knowledge itself is not an antidote and particularly because Itachi can use finger genjutsu. This is where I think that Tobirama's speed (shunshin coupled with FTG) would come in handy. Given his knowledge, high speed movement would make it difficult for Itachi to lock eyes with him long enough to genjutsu him. However, I would be remiss not to mention that Itachi himself is super fast. So, it is possible that he could match his shunshin (not FTG). This is where I believe that clones come in. IF, a big if, Tobirama chooses to, he could have his clones break him out of genjutsu. However, one needs to note that this method would only work before Itachi uses tsukuyomi. In conclusion, I have to be honest and say that I do not know how this would play out. I think that Tobirama has a good chance to deal with Itachi's genjutsu but cannot in good conscience say that he would never fall to it. Hence why I believe that Itachi would win 3/10 times.

*Hiraishin No Jutsu*

Hiraishin presents the best chance for Tobirama to win. As we have seen many times, Itachi has a tendency to engage in CQC before using MS or genjutsu. He did that against Kakashi. He did that against the jinchiruki as well as against Kabuto. If he chooses to get into CQC with Tobirama, he would die. Tobirama has shown that he can put both a FTG mark and fuuda bombs on a RS level ninja faster than they can notice. While most people think that susano'o would save Itachi, they don't realize that if the bomb tag is ON Itachi, susano'o won't help him. Furthermore, with FTG Tobirama can pull out Itachi out of susano'o quite easily. Once he is out, hiraishingiri finishes him. I believe it is fair to say that if Itachi is tagged, he is done

*Edo Tensei*

I see edo tensei playing a primarily support role. I doubt that Tobirama can summon someone as strong as Itachi or himself. However, Itachi still has to deal with Tobirama, who is stronger than him, and some pesky zombies. This plays in Tobirama's favor because Itachi has poor chakra. With no knowledge, Itachi would waste some chakra fighting them and defending against them. Assuming that Tobirama places FTG marks on his zombies, Itachi would be in serious trouble because he would have a hard time sealing the zombies with his totsuka sword. Plus, Itachi would have to use susano'o multiple times to defend himself against Gojō Kibaku Fuda. So, this does not bode well for him. 

All in all, Itachi CAN win but would have a very hard time winning.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

@Senjuclan

You forget in your list of Genjutsu counters, that Tobirama's Chakra Sensing would also alert him to when Itachi is gatheirng chakra into his eyes to use a Genjutsu and that would give him the heads up, which would make it even more difficult for Itachi to pin him down with Genjutsu.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except you misunderstood. Itachi can _control_ shinobi (shown to be weak minded ones) without sensors noticing. Casting other Genjutsu is another story altogether.


Actually you both misunderstand. Itachi can't control Shinobi with Genjutsu w/o sensors noticing. Itachi's the only one  HQ could think of who can control shinobi outside sensors range. The focus is on distance.


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## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> @Senjuclan
> 
> You forget in your list of Genjutsu counters, that Tobirama's Chakra Sensing would also alert him to when Itachi is gatheirng chakra into his eyes to use a Genjutsu and that would give him the heads up, which would make it even more difficult for Itachi to pin him down with Genjutsu.



No dippy, Shi got caught in a genjutsu while looking at Sasuke and he is a sensor. You also forget that sensors have to focus on sensing which means that have to be comfortable to focus. Also a Sasuke attack which isn't genjutsu but ninjutsu going against arguably the strongest character who is the jinchurikki to a GOD shown in the manga is irrelevant to Tobirama's ability.

Genjutsu have been shown to not be able to be picked up on as noted by AO who *speculated*that Itachi must be controlling people while amongst sensors powered by a machine. Also Itachi doesn't just cast genjutsu from his eye or have you forgot? His genjutsu also takes effect immediately as noted by Kakashi being in a world for 3 days in 1 second. 

Also Itachi's intangibles is knowledge and deductive ability and he knows about Tobirama skillset than Tobirama knows about his. Itachi is the person with the infamous line "every jutsu have a weakness" and about what people percieve to be reality. He will feint Tobirama and kill him in his sleep.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> No dippy, Shi got caught in a genjutsu while looking at Sasuke and he is a sensor. You also forget that sensors have to focus on sensing which means that have to be comfortable to focus. Also a Sasuke attack which isn't genjutsu but ninjutsu going against arguably the strongest character who is the jinchurikki to a GOD shown in the manga is irrelevant to Tobirama's ability.
> 
> Genjutsu have been shown to not be able to be picked up on as noted by AO who *speculated*that Itachi must be controlling people while amongst sensors powered by a machine. Also Itachi doesn't just cast genjutsu from his eye or have you forgot? His genjutsu also takes effect immediately as noted by Kakashi being in a world for 3 days in 1 second.
> 
> Also Itachi's intangibles is knowledge and deductive ability and he knows about Tobirama skillset than Tobirama knows about his. Itachi is the person with the infamous line "every jutsu have a weakness" and about what people percieve to be reality. He will feint Tobirama and kill him in his sleep.



Yes let's reduce the incredibly skilled Hokage with superior sensing powers to the level of a C who wasn't even focusing on sensing Sasuke, but tracking Karin. That makes total sense. 

AO said Itachi can control people out of range of sensors, I.E. it's about range & nothing else.


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## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Yes let's reduce the incredibly skilled Hokage with superior sensing powers to the level of a C who wasn't even focusing on sensing Sasuke, but tracking Karin. That makes total sense.
> 
> AO said Itachi can control people out of range of sensors, I.E. it's about range & nothing else.



He looked Sasuke right in his Mangekyou upon first meeting him. He did it right after he was about to attack him.. So I will assume Tsukyomi will hit him as it takes effect immediately. Also the only sensor that seems to be able to use it in combat is Juubito not Tobirama.. So stop giving him feats.


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## Turrin (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> He looked Sasuke right in his Mangekyou upon first meeting him. He did it right after he was about to attack him.. So I will assume Tsukyomi will hit him as it takes effect immediately. Also the only sensor that seems to be able to use it in combat is Juubito not Tobirama.. So stop giving him feats.


Okay so your trolling, moving on.


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## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> He looked Sasuke right in his Mangekyou upon first meeting him. He did it right after he was about to attack him.



They were not fighting at the time, not was Tobirama planning on fighting.


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## Almondsand (Aug 6, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Okay so your trolling, moving on.


Stop giving characters feats that they didn't show.. Then you will be a credible debater.



Rocky said:


> They were not fighting at the time, not was Tobirama planning on fighting.



He perceived Sasuke as a threat at that moment and looked him right in the eye.


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## Rocky (Aug 6, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> He perceived Sasuke as a threat at that moment and looked him right in the eye.



No he didn't. 

He looked at Sasuke's eyes in casual conversation. It was after Sasuke deactivated his Mangekyou that Tobirama Chakra surged them.


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## Kanki (Aug 7, 2013)

Actually amazed that 1 or 2 people think Itachi low-diffs this fight. Only read the first few pages but I trust they have been corrected.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

There's never been a non-Sage sensor that uses in combat like people grant. Sensor types focus on chakra detection. It's not sophisticated like sage sensing. Itachi would chuck a chakra-less kunai between their eyes and they'd never see it coming.​


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## joshhookway (Aug 7, 2013)

Just wait till next chaper and Tobirama gets senjutsu and uses monster tsunamis.


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Yeah keep hoping Tobirama get something to make this a much more better match-up.


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## HappyHalloween (Aug 8, 2013)

Tobirama continues his favourite past-time of slaughtering Uchiha.  Tobirama wins with ease and adds Itachi to the personal killed Uchiha list.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> There's never been a non-Sage sensor that uses in combat like people grant. Sensor types focus on chakra detection. It's not sophisticated like sage sensing. Itachi would chuck a chakra-less kunai between their eyes and they'd never see it coming.​



I guess this did not happen in combat and Torune was trolling when he said this to Fuu during battle.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2013)

Fū identifying someone's position with the chakra sensing technique while standing around looking for a hiding opponent is a great example of _not_ being in the heat of combat while sensing.​


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## Senjuclan (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Fū identifying someone's position with the chakra sensing technique while standing around looking for a hiding opponent is a great example of _not_ being in the heat of combat while sensing.​



 Fuu sensed "Madara" the minute he reappeared and attacked. How is that different from Naruto sensing Kisame and attacking him? Are you saying Naruto did not sense Kisame?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> There's never been a non-Sage sensor that uses in combat like people grant. Sensor types focus on chakra detection. It's not sophisticated like sage sensing. Itachi would chuck a chakra-less kunai between their eyes and they'd never see it coming.​



If you can tell us when sage sensing was shown to be very different from sensing, that would help to make your point more believable.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If you can tell us when sage sensing was shown to be very different from sensing, that would help to make your point more believable.



They can sense objects have no chakra, for starters. Like swords. Sage sensing also "senses danger," which is what gives them ridiculous reflexes. It's like a spidey-sense. 

Typical chakra sensing is a technique that's used to detect chakra. It's not active all the time, and C indicated that it's not something that can be used if focused on battling a strong opponent.​


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## Alex Payne (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> They can sense objects have no chakra, for starters. Like swords. Sage sensing also "senses danger," which is what gives them ridiculous reflexes. It's like a spidey-sense.
> 
> Typical chakra sensing is a technique that's used to detect chakra. It's not active all the time, and C indicated that it's not something that can be used if focused on battling a strong opponent.​


C is just a noob sensor. Muu was sensing mid-battle to counter Naruto's surprise attack while fighting Gaara+Onoki. Sage sensing is the same as normal sensing. Danger-sensing is based around natural energy surrounding Sage's body - same Natural Energy Aura is used in Kawazu Kumite. Karin "saw" the room clearly through sensing - similarly to how Naruto perceived the War after he busted out of Jin Training Temple.

Tired again, Strat?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> They can sense objects have no chakra, for starters. Like swords. Sage sensing also "senses danger," which is what gives them ridiculous reflexes. It's like a spidey-sense.
> 
> Typical chakra sensing is a technique that's used to detect chakra. It's not active all the time, and C indicated that it's not something that can be used if focused on battling a strong opponent.​



Except Tobirama has used it in battle against very strong foes. Granted he won't be able to sense inanimate objects, but Itachi will be mostly all chakra against Tobirama.

And no usual excuse can work for Itachi seeing as Tobirama was able to survive against superior Uchiha (for example, those who could actually take their Amaterasu to the Kagutsuchi level). Given we know he's got Hiraishin, chakra sensing and Suiton mastery, we can infer that it is due to those he was able to accomplish this. 

But I digress, the salient point is that you have yet to actually tell us anything substantial to suggest that Tobirama's sensing isn't a viable option against Itachi.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> And no usual excuse can work for Itachi seeing as Tobirama was able to survive against superior Uchiha



​


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> (for example, those who could actually take their Amaterasu to the Kagutsuchi level).



Kagutsuchi is a separate techinque present in a separate eye. The technique itself has nothing to do with skill, and we don't know how skillfully Izuna could use the technique, or even if he possessed it.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Kagutsuchi is a separate techinque present in a separate eye.



So Sasuke awakened three MS jutsu before Susanoo? 

Anyhow, the fact you only jumped onto a point which suggested Tobirama took stronger Uchiha whom were skilled enough to use Enton more effectively. As opposed to tackling the other points in my post only suggests that you have no real plausible explanation as to why Tobirama's sensing wouldn't be very useful against Itachi. 

How do I know this? You only wanted to touch on an example which suggested there were Uchiha superior to Itachi... .


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

I didn't jump on anything. You're just repeating yourself and I'd rather not do likewise. Secondly, no, Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. He has Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, and Susano'o.​


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> I didn't jump on anything. You're just repeating yourself and I'd rather not do likewise. Secondly, no, Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. He has Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, and Susano'o.​



That doesn't change the fact that you've not actually given a valid reason for Tobirama's sensing not being useful. 

Secondly, you can discuss your opinion about Sasuke's Tsukuyomi else where.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So Sasuke awakened three MS jutsu before Susanoo?
> 
> Anyhow, the fact you only jumped onto a point which suggested Tobirama took stronger Uchiha whom were skilled enough to use Enton more effectively. As opposed to tackling the other points in my post only suggests that you have no real plausible explanation as to why Tobirama's sensing wouldn't be very useful against Itachi.
> 
> How do I know this? You only wanted to touch on an example which suggested there were Uchiha superior to Itachi... .



If by "stronger Uchiha" you mean Izuna, he was fodder.


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## Kai (Aug 9, 2013)

Except being weak does not make one fodder. Being irrelevant does.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Except being weak does not make one fodder. Being irrelevant does.



The two aren't really mutually exclusive. Irrelevant characters will tend to be weaker than relevant ones e.g. the 3rd Raikage going down to a clone, Hanzō going down to Mifune, etc.​


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## Kai (Aug 9, 2013)

They aren't absolutely so. Hatake Sakumo was a very powerful, yet highly irrelevant fodder.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2013)

Kai said:


> Except being weak does not make one fodder. Being irrelevant does.


My definition for fodder would be : expandable, non factor character.

As for your definition, we don't know how weak he was or how strong he was(given the strength of a MS user can vary and once you are expandable your strength doesn't mean anything), but he certainly isn't relevant in any level.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If by "stronger Uchiha" you mean Izuna, he was fodder.



Tobirama saw Kagutsuchi more often, a jutsu Itachi couldn't obtain. That suggests there were more talented Uchiha. Couple that with the fact that Itachi's only real threatening qualities are those that all Uchiha possess... Itachi would likely be weaker than the standard of Uchiha that Tobirama's used to.

Like it or not, Izuna showed that Hiraishin would be more than effective against the Sharingan. Throw in Tobirama's sensory abilities and Suiton, and you've got a solid case for Tobirama. That is if you stop fixating on one example I used for Tobirama's prowess. 

As for the 'fodder' cop-out, Kai explained it well.



> As for your definition, we don't know how weak he was or how strong he was(given the strength of a MS user can vary and once you are expandable your strength doesn't mean anything(, but he certainly isn't relevant.



So you don't know how strong Izuna was, but you simply just dismissed him as an example for Tobirama's prowess.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Tobirama saw Kagutsuchi more often, a jutsu Itachi couldn't obtain. That suggests there were more talented Uchiha.



That is absolute bullshit based on nothing.




> Couple that with the fact that Itachi's only real threatening qualities are those that all Uchiha possess... Itachi would likely be weaker than the standard of Uchiha that Tobirama's used to.


Guys like Obito, Madara and Shusui didn't have Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.
What the hell are you tralking about ? 



> Like it or not, Izuna showed that Hiraishin would be more than effective against the Sharingan. Throw in Tobirama's sensory abilities and Suiton, and you've got a solid case for Tobirama. That is if you stop fixating on one example I used for Tobirama's prowess.


There is absolutely no indication that Izuna had Susano'o or Tsukiyomi, or talent on par with Itachi.




> As for the 'fodder' cop-out, Kai explained it well.


Izuna fits the definition of fodder perfectly well.



> So you don't know how strong Izuna was, but you simply just dismissed him as an example for Tobirama's prowess.


So you don't know how strong Izuna was, and yet claim that he is stronger than Iachi ?


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## Vice (Aug 9, 2013)

Do you really think Kishi intended for Izuna to be looked at as fodder?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 9, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is absolute bullshit based on nothing.



> Tobirama tells the readers he's seen Kagutsuchi before
> C says Kagutsuchi is a sign of being better with Enton
> Itachi lacks Enton control

Sounds like a strong basis. The only thing without a basis is your reason for dismissing this.



> Guys like Obito, Madara and Shusui didn't have Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu.
> What the hell are you tralking about ?



Obito and Shisui are special cases given their Senju DNA. Madara, the man's only shown Susanoo. You don't know if he has Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi, given the towering evidence he probably does like Sasuke, and every other MS Uchiha as per se the manga and the DBs.

However I notice you didn't counter the argument that Itachi's main threatening qualities (Sharingan Genjutsu and Katon) are precisely the same traits that the Uchiha clan were known for. Instead you chose to shift the focus to what each Uchiha in this manga uses with their MS.



> There is absolutely no indication that Izuna had Susano'o or Tsukiyomi, or talent on par with Itachi.



You can't go against the possibility either. Given that Tobirama has seen Susanoo in his life time, and that the DB as well as Obito have suggested there have been other Susanoo users... It isn't illogical to believe the brother of Madara Uchiha had Susanoo. Also I'd let go of this Tsukuyomi thing you've got going on, we've seen enough evidence to call it a generic MS jutsu. As such, Tobirama would be familiar with it.



> Izuna fits the definition of fodder perfectly well.



That's just a cop-out you're hiding behind because you can't concretely say Itachi was superior to him, which has implications for this match. 
Whereas I'm not hiding behind any such cop-out. All I said was that Tobirama has seen an Enton jutsu more advanced than Amaterasu (according to C this translates to being better than Itachi with the black flames), suggesting that he's seen Uchiha with more talent than Itachi. 
It is your choice whether or not you want to include Izuna in that bunch, though I see no logical reason to say no to that.



> So you don't know how strong Izuna was, and yet claim that he is stronger than Iachi ?



You made that assumption, I merely said Tobirama came across Uchiha who've got superior MS talent compared to Itachi. Given that they were able to control the black flames. Don't like it? Then take it up with C, who said that spatially controlling the Amaterasu flames made Sasuke better than Itachi with said flames. Obviously this means anyone who can spatially recompose the black flames - use Kagutsuchi - is more talented than Itachi.
It just happens that it seems Tobirama has seen a few users who match the bill.

Though, it feels that you're making more of an effort to argue for Tsukuyomi and Izuna's strength, over trying to argue how this links to Itachi's chances against Tobirama ITT.
At the very least I used the example that's been contested, by two users now, over the actual argument over _why_ this actually applies to Tobirama vs Itachi.


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Izuna is clearly suppose to be seen as incredibly strong considering he trained alongside Madara, awakened MS, and was the second strongest Uchiha during the height of the clan wars. I don't think Tobirama beating him means he's stronger than Itachi, because we don't know if Izuna was > or = to Itachi, but to belittle Izuna to the point of fodder is ridiculous.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 9, 2013)

Izuna was fodder. Upper class fodder, probably, but still fodder that would get foddered by Shikamaru or Mifune if given the chance. If the manga was set in a time period where Hanzō, Izuma, etc. weren't filler then they wouldn't be treated like filler. In this manga, they're superficial devices that augment other characters' stories.​


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## Sok (Aug 9, 2013)

izuna>itachi


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Izuna was fodder. Upper class fodder, probably, but still fodder that would get foddered by Shikamaru or Mifune if given the chance. If the manga was set in a time period where Hanzō, Izuma, etc. weren't filler then they wouldn't be treated like filler. In this manga, they're superficial devices that augment other characters' stories.​


Strategoob, your trolls before at least used to be somewhat funny, now I can't even understand what your saying half the time, like this post.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 9, 2013)

This match can still go either way; we at least know what Tobirama can do with his space-time Ninjutsu, but he has yet to show a more convenient way of setting up tags (like what Minato can do with kunai).

His offense is also a bit lacking, but that's not such a big deal. Still, I think the question this match hinges on is "Does he make eye-contact with Itachi at some point during the fight?"


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## Turrin (Aug 9, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> This match can still go either way; we at least know what Tobirama can do with his space-time Ninjutsu, but he has yet to show a more convenient way of setting up tags (like what Minato can do with kunai).
> 
> His offense is also a bit lacking, but that's not such a big deal. Still, I think the question this match hinges on is "Does he make eye-contact with Itachi at some point during the fight?"


How is his offense lacking when he has Tandem Explosive Tags and FTG. I mean he's not the biggest offensive beast in this manga, but I wouldn't describe that as lacking.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 10, 2013)

Vice said:


> Do you really think Kishi intended for Izuna to be looked at as fodder?



He certainly didn't intend him to look strong, otherwise he'd give him some character development and allow him to have a proper display.

So while I don't think Kishi intend the guy to seem as fodder, he also didn't do much to make him look any better than that.

And by definition, he was fodder.




Turrin said:


> Izuna is clearly suppose to be seen as incredibly strong considering he trained alongside Madara, awakened MS, and was the second strongest Uchiha during the height of the clan wars. I don't think Tobirama beating him means he's stronger than Itachi, because we don't know if Izuna was > or = to Itachi, but to belittle Izuna to the point of fodder is ridiculous.



Yahiko trained alongside Nagato.
Kakashi trained alongside Minato.
Asuma is Hiruzen's son.
etc etc.

Just because Izuna had a powerful role model to look up to doesn't mean he was anywhere close his level.


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## Trojan (Aug 10, 2013)

Although I think tobirama is stronger than itachi, perhaps much stronger, but by feats 
I'd say itachi wins more times than not with extremely high difficult. However, I think some 
More feats from tobirama will mean that there is no hope for itachi. @@


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yahiko trained alongside Nagato.
> Kakashi trained alongside Minato.
> Asuma is Hiruzen's son.
> etc etc.
> ...


We don't know if any of these guys constantly sparred and competed with each other.  Asuma is a completely different scenario entirely. Kakashi is strong and Yahiko seems indicated to be quite strong as well, but never indicated to have something like Sharingan/MS.

With that said I never stated Izuna was as strong as Madara, that's an equally silly assertion as Izuna is fodder


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 10, 2013)

Izuna is Itachi level; meaning weaker than Tobirama.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2013)

Hashirama never said Izuna put him to shame as a shinobi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 10, 2013)

Turrin said:


> We don't know if any of these guys constantly sparred and competed with each other.  Asuma is a completely different scenario entirely. Kakashi is strong and Yahiko seems indicated to be quite strong as well, but never indicated to have something like Sharingan/MS.
> 
> With that said I never stated Izuna was as strong as Madara, that's an equally silly assertion as Izuna is fodder



Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi is fairly weak imo, for a MS user. 
So I am ok if we could assume that Izuna was around that level. 

But in our current reality(with the stuff what've observed on panel), Izuna is sadly nothing more than a fodder.


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## Dominus (Aug 10, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi is fairly weak imo, for a MS user.
> So I am ok if we could assume that Izuna was around that level.



Kakashi is not an Uchiha and like Madara said you need to have both eyes to awaken their full potential.


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## Almondsand (Aug 10, 2013)

Fact of the matter is this.. Itachi died on his own accord. Tobirama got killed by fodder.. Itachi makes main characters in the story degrade to fodder level when around him.. So Tobirama dies like fodder.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 10, 2013)

Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> Kakashi is not an Uchiha and like Madara said you need to have both eyes to awaken their full potential.



I didn't say he was.
Just used him as an example for a MS user.

Sasuke when he fought B wasn't much different. He had a mediocre MS genjutsu and Amaterasu he couldn't control well.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 10, 2013)

^ He didn't have Amaterasu at all until the end.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 10, 2013)

Call Izuna fodder if you wish. However it comes across as you've got no real counter argument to it as a valid example ITT though.



Nikushimi said:


> This match can still go either way; we at least know what Tobirama can do with his space-time Ninjutsu, but he has yet to show a more convenient way of setting up tags (like what Minato can do with kunai).



Couldn't he mark locations by touching them, as Minato does? Then there is the seal-less Hiraishin variation that Tobirama and Minato used to leave the Uchiha shirine, and after leaving the Uchiha shrine... Minato did something like that when he teleported to Kurama.



> His offense is also a bit lacking, but that's not such a big deal. Still, I think the question this match hinges on is "Does he make eye-contact with Itachi at some point during the fight?"



His Uchiha experience could come into this. Also you can choose to assert his sensing is useless based on nothing, or suggest he can use his sensing to prevent eye contact based on his battles thus far.


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## Turrin (Aug 10, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Beginning of Part 2 Kakashi is fairly weak imo, for a MS user.
> So I am ok if we could assume that Izuna was around that level.
> 
> Sasuke when he fought B wasn't much different. He had a mediocre MS genjutsu and Amaterasu he couldn't control well


Kakashi is a dumb example and you know it. Sasuke is at least an Uchiha with both Sharingan, but Sasuke is not really a good example ether. For one thing Sasuke did not spar with someone like Madara growing up, & even with EMS/MS aside Madara's base skills are incredible complete with absolutely giant Katons, Uchiha Kaijin, etc.. so if Izuna was able to match those he's probably superior to Sasuke in a number of Base areas, not the least of which being exp & knowledge. No to mention Izuna probably knew Uchiha Kinjutsu like Izanami and Izanagi, considering he was at the height of the clan at the time alongside Madara, and Itachi implies a-lot of Uchiha elites could use these Jutsu:
hitting Sasuke with Amaterasu

Additionally Izuna was indicated to have gained the MS at the same time as Madara and we know Izuna had his MS long enough for Madara to go blind from his, so Izuna must have had his MS much longer than Sasuke had his MS by the time of the Killer B fight and most likely had greater mastery of it. Than there is also possibility that he had some level of Enton due to Tobirama's statement.

So yeah I doubt Izuna was as weak as Killer B fight Sasuke, who amounts to the weakest MS Uchiha we've seen in the manga.


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## Vice (Aug 11, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He certainly didn't intend him to look strong, otherwise he'd give him some character development and allow him to have a proper display.
> 
> So while I don't think Kishi intend the guy to seem as fodder, he also didn't do much to make him look any better than that.



What the fuck are you talking about? The manga went out of its way to directly compare him to Madara. Of course he came up short, but do you know how strong you have to be to even be in the same sentence as that man? Madara is a god.



> And by definition, he was fodder.



No he isn't.


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## Dominus (Aug 11, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say he was.
> Just used him as an example for a MS user.
> 
> Sasuke when he fought B wasn't much different. He had a mediocre MS genjutsu and Amaterasu he couldn't control well.



I'm pretty sure Izuna used his MS more than once. That was the first time Sasuke used his MS and I didn't notice that he couldn't control Amaterasu because he did extinguish the flames.



Strategoob said:


> ^ He didn't have Amaterasu at all until the end.



Not using something isn't the same as not being able to use it.


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## Illusive Frame (Aug 11, 2013)

If people really thought Tobirama would win, they wouldn't be comparing a featless Izuna to Itachi. We've already seen that not all MS users are equal. That goes for base skills as well. Izuna was equal to a MS Madara who's only feats are a small Katon and kenjutsu. There's nothing proving that Izuna was equal or stronger than Itachi. Izuna was compared to a MS Madara. Who was weaker than the EMS Madara who only could use an incomplete Susanoo.

 So there's no way in hell that Izuna and MS Madara are on an healthy MS Itachi's level. 

Tobirama isn't Minato. He can't throw around Kunai's to bounce around to. Tobirama is going to have to mark Itachi in order to hurt him. Tobirama has nothing to get through Itachi's Susanoo. Tobirama eventually gets caught in Genjutsu or killed/sealed by Susanoo. It's a joke that people actually think that Tobirama wins this. Just shows how overrated he is.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 11, 2013)

Illusive Frame said:


> If people really thought Tobirama would win, they wouldn't be comparing a featless Izuna to Itachi. We've already seen that not all MS users are equal. That goes for base skills as well. Izuna was equal to a MS Madara who's only feats are a small Katon and kenjutsu. There's nothing proving that Izuna was equal or stronger than Itachi. Izuna was compared to a MS Madara. Who was weaker than the EMS Madara who only could use an incomplete Susanoo.



Not all MS users are equal, however we've only seen that it is the Obito/Sasuke/Madara/Shisui types which are above the rest. The rest being those who have the standard 3 MS jutsu, and some greater ones who've obtained Kagutsuchi.

MS Madara would still have access to his feats which do not use the Rinnegan or EMS.

Furthermore your claim is unsupported about EMS Madara who could _only_ use a incomplete Susanoo. We saw Madara forming Susanoo. Not too long later we saw a lot of the fight missed. In other words, Madara likely used a fully formed Susanoo.



> So there's no way in hell that Izuna and MS Madara are on an healthy MS Itachi's level.



Except healthy MS Itachi's level is _exactly_ what we saw against Sasuke. The _only_ difference, as per manga canon, would be that a healthy Itachi would be a bit faster (to dodge a rigged shuriken) and wouldn't cough blood.

Tobirama suggested, there were MS Uchiha whom could casually use Enton: Kagutsuchi - an extension of Amaterasu that Itachi's level of MS ability prevented him from achieving.

One could easily speculate that Izuna had more ability than Itachi with all the pieces of info we. Itachi wasn't the only Susanoo user, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu have been around longer than Itachi (hint: Kakashi, C etc knew of it). There were also Uchiha that could take Amaterasu to the next level. 
Also considering the quality of Madara's base Katon, you could easily speculate that Izuna had Katon of a similar quality. To add perspective, Obito trained with Madara and had super sized Katon; you can say the same is applied to Izuna.

So no, you cannot readily dismiss that Izuna is on a lower level than Itachi. Of course, in not dismissing it, it means conceding to the notion that Tobirama is used to fighting higher quality Uchiha compared to Itachi.



> Tobirama isn't Minato. He can't throw around Kunai's to bounce around to. Tobirama is going to have to mark Itachi in order to hurt him. Tobirama has nothing to get through Itachi's Susanoo. Tobirama eventually gets caught in Genjutsu or killed/sealed by Susanoo. It's a joke that people actually think that Tobirama wins this. Just shows how overrated he is.



There is a seal-less Hiraishin variation. You've not considered that actual parts of the battlefield can be marked. So Tobirama has a way to distribute seals, not as efficient as Minato but efficient nevertheless.

You really can't talk about how overrated Tobirama is when your only defence for Itachi is "he has nothing to get through Susanoo" (Hiraishin) and "he will eventually get caught in Genjutsu" (Tobirama is a sensor). 

The fact is there have been solid points ITT that suggest Tobirama wins. It just happens that the Izuna example used to support those points caught the most attention for some reason.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 11, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Sasuke doesn't have Tsukuyomi. He has Amaterasu, Kagutsuchi, and Susano'o.​





Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You can discuss your opinion about Sasuke's Tsukuyomi else where.



You gotta love this. 

"You're wrong."

"Take it elsewhere."

You would think that means it doesn't belong in this this thread because it's not on topic.

But no, then Munboy just keeps on repeating the same line. Basically, "your opinion is opinion so can't be seriously discussed, mine is fact so I can use it as a basis of my opinion that Sasuke is a more advanced MS user."


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## Kakashi Hatake (Aug 11, 2013)

People using Izuna as their argument to support a notion that Tobirama can handle fighting Uchiha's. 

Lets not forget what Chiyo said, not everyone is suited to fight Uchiha's (Sharingan users). You need genjutsu defense (Kage Bunshin, High Chakra Control) to fight an Uchiha, without it you automatically lose, that's what was implied in the manga.

Defeating Izuna is the difference between Tobirama and Minato. No one can build a strong argument for Minato successfully defending against Itachi's genjutsu than Tobirama. That is why this match is very close, Tobirama basically has the tools to counter Itachi's jutsu's. 

- Sensing + Hirashin > Amaterasu
- Avoid Eye Contact and use Sensing to fight > Tsukiyomi
- Hirashin to avoid getting a critical hit from Susano, Edo Tensei + Tag to make damage to Susano

Tobirama has superior knowledge, experience and offensive power than Minato. That what makes Tobirama closer to Itachi than Minato. 

Honestly, Base Itachi can deal with Minato, read Baroxia post in Base Itachi vs Base Minato thread. He presented a indisputable argument for Base Itachi > Minato. I have yet to see a strong argument for Itachi > Tobirama without high difficulty. I seen couple of Itachi fans think this match is close, too close to call.


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## Turrin (Aug 11, 2013)

Kakashi Hatake said:


> People using Izuna as their argument to support a notion that Tobirama can handle fighting Uchiha's.
> 
> Lets not forget what Chiyo said, not everyone is suited to fight Uchiha's (Sharingan users). You need genjutsu defense (Kage Bunshin, High Chakra Control) to fight an Uchiha, without it you automatically lose, that's what was implied in the manga.
> 
> ...


Minato beat his own MS wielding Uchiha as well (who also had Senju DNA) & anyone who thinks Base Itachi can beat Minato should not be taken seriously


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 11, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Kakashi is a dumb example and you know it.


It might be an extreme example, but it isn't dumb.
Kakashi is a guy with close to excellent base skill and abilities and a pretty decent MS jutsu(albeit with lower mastery level @ that point).



> Sasuke is at least an Uchiha with both Sharingan, but Sasuke is not really a good example ether. For one thing Sasuke did not spar with someone like Madara growing up, & even with EMS/MS aside Madara's base skills are incredible complete with absolutely giant Katons, Uchiha Kaijin, etc.. so if Izuna was able to match those he's probably superior to Sasuke in a number of Base areas, not the least of which being exp & knowledge.



These are all with the assumption that Izuna was somehow on Madara's level in those areas.
And its not like Madara sat all day and trained Izuna. 



> No to mention Izuna probably knew Uchiha Kinjutsu like Izanami and Izanagi, considering he was at the height of the clan at the time alongside Madara, and Itachi implies a-lot of Uchiha elites could use these Jutsu:
> Link removed


"Probably." Ok.

Not that knowing about them changes anything unless you use them. And knowing the fact that he had both of his eyes intact, he didn't use them.



> Additionally Izuna was indicated to have gained the MS at the same time as Madara and we know Izuna had his MS long enough for Madara to go blind from his, so Izuna must have had his MS much longer than Sasuke had his MS by the time of the Killer B fight and most likely had greater mastery of it.


Or he had a brand new shiny MS because he awakened it alot later than Madara, or he didn't use it as much as him thus he wasn't as experienced.

We also don't know what MS jutsu he had. So its pretty much a shot in the dark.

No one could have guessed what Shisui had in both eyes.




> Than there is also possibility that he had some level of Enton due to Tobirama's statement.


Enton it self isn't that much of a big deal. Especially without seeing how much mastery he possessed with it.




> So yeah I doubt Izuna was as weak as Killer B fight Sasuke, who amounts to the weakest MS Uchiha we've seen in the manga.


I am not saying he definitely was, but he could be. That is a possibility.

He could be a powerful dude, but going by what we know and seen and how Izuna was treated, he was nothing special. 

Characters like Izuna are in a very bad spot. They have little to no character development, they have no feats and all we know about them is that how they were owned.



Vice said:


> What the fuck are you talking about? The manga went out of its way to directly compare him to Madara.


Yes, in Itachi's story when he was talking about the brothers when they were young.

Which later on got retconned in Madara's flashbacks, making it look like Madara was always alot stronger than the little bro.




> Of course he came up short, but do you know how strong you have to be to even be in the same sentence as that man? Madara is a god.



Izuna was never compared to Madara in his peak in any way or form.



> No he isn't.



He is a featless guy who pretty much got killed off panel and  doesn't/didn't have much impact on the story. 
He fits the profile.



Dark Prince of Awesome said:


> I'm pretty sure Izuna used his MS more than once. That was the first time Sasuke used his MS and I didn't notice that he couldn't control Amaterasu because he did extinguish the flames.


His first use was pretty much impulsive and by the time he was done using both abilities, he was in a terrible shape. 



> Not using something isn't the same as not being able to use it.



Its not that he didn't use it. He unlocked it @ that very moment.


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## RockyIII (Oct 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If thats the case, then I'll have the right to ask you to stop wanking to Tobirama
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi's stamina is the problem for him in this fight. I know we'd love to believe he can use susanoo and ametarasu infinitely like he did when he was edo tensei but he just can't. When he was alive he used ametarasu once and he was severely winded. He used tsukuyomi once and questions of stamina were brought up. He couldn't hold susanoo for 5 minutes let alone an entire fight.

Tobirama has senju DNA, a complete knowledge of how to deal with superior Uchihas (he fought extensively with madara and izuna)


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