# Itachi's genjutsu



## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

with regular sharingan is really GG for most of the ninja in the manga. People here in the battledome under-rate how actually great his proficiency with illusions really are.

First off it have been shown numerous times that Itachi's genjutsu can not be distinguished from reality. He can control people whle they are subjugated as was seen in his fight with Deidara. The strength of his genjutsu have been shown to have no counters unless he stops them or someone from the outside injects chakra in the person. He also have shown to _weave other techniques while the person is *subjugated*_ which is actually something that should *END *battles altogether. 

What I am trying to figure out is why people say that a shinobi can beat him because of the hype over one technique yet Itachi who has hype for illusionary techniques, have shown feats and multipurpose with them, yet people always say Minato or Tobirama or Kakashi or any ninja they feel gets a power-up or unfounded hype can counter it no problem.

How can Itachi's genjutsu be countered? Who can counter Itachi's regular genjutsu besides Jinchurriki? None and nobody on this board can say that with confidence especially since we are talking about the gifted genius and absolute best at illusionary techniques, not some low level genin.


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## Krippy (Aug 7, 2013)

Perfect Jinchuriki and any worthwile Sharingan user can counter it


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

That's why I asked who besides jinchurriki can counter his regular genjutsu? Also Sasuke couldn't counter Itachi's regular genjutsu, he decided to put it down and that is Sasuke powered up with Orochimaru and a three tomoe sharingan.


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## Krippy (Aug 7, 2013)

lolwat? Hebi Sauce countered all of Itachi's regular illusions and broke Tsukuyomi as well, Genjutsu is ineffective against someone who can see through it


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Speed is a good counter to genjutsu
Can't genjutsu someone you can't keep up with
Or clones is a good counter since they can't be genjutsu'd and can cancel gen on the original 
or being a sensor , or having the byakugan, or having sensing techniques 
so most high level can deal with his genjutsu just fine


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

I think Uchiha in general are all deadly because of Sharingan Genjutsu with Itachi in specific being the most deadly along side Shisui. Chiyo pretty much told us that when she said if you are alone you flee because once you are caught its over. Of course I would assume with enough skill you would be able to fight an Uchiha with no problem (Oro almost broke out) but that list would probably be limited. In Itachi's case I would think that Genjutsu would pretty much be the end of most people.

Based on manga I would say Oro, Kurenai?, hosts, and Sharingan/Rinnegan users would probably be able to get out of his Genjutsu before being killed. Whether or not a person gets caught is another story.


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## Senjuclan (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> The strength of his genjutsu have been shown to have no counters unless he stops them or someone from the outside injects chakra in the person.



Kirabi countered his genjutsu just fine and Kakashi made it null by using a kage bunshin



Almondsand said:


> What I am trying to figure out is why people say that a shinobi can beat him because of the hype over one technique yet Itachi who has hype for illusionary techniques, have shown feats and multipurpose with them, yet people always say Minato or Tobirama or Kakashi or any ninja they feel gets a power-up or unfounded hype can counter it no problem.



Because those people know that there are counters to genjutsu such as being jinchiruki, using kage bunshin, using a summon as a partner, moving at such speed that you don't lock eyes with Itachi or fighting with your eyes closed. On top of that you have people who are simply godly like Hashirama who can reject edo tensei control with ease and that is a stronger control than genjutsu



Almondsand said:


> How can Itachi's genjutsu be countered? Who can counter Itachi's regular genjutsu besides Jinchurriki? None and nobody on this board can say that with confidence especially since we are talking about the gifted genius and absolute best at illusionary techniques, not some low level genin.



Many people can. Kakashi did in the manga. Orochimaru did as well


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

Tayuga's genjutsu is superior to sharingan genjutsu as noted in the Kabuto vs Itachi + Sasuke battle. A simple bite on the lip > genjutsu.


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

That was a Sage amped Genjutsu and her Genjutsu abilities were already said to be top tier in the first place.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

Shikamaru > Sharingan genjutsu. I can dig it


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

While I agree genjutsu should not be underestimated
The vast majority of high level ninja can deal with it 
With alot of ease mind you 
obviously the likes of asuma fall against it because they aren't high level 
However kakuzu should have no issues against such or tobirama etc


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi's Genjutsu is definitely underrated by a lot of people.

However...



Krippy said:


> Perfect Jinchuriki and any worthwile Sharingan user can counter it



^This.

Actually, I would amend the statement to read "any worthwhile Doujutsu user."

Those counters don't necessarily work for Tsukuyomi and Izanami, but those are special Jutsu.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 7, 2013)

Sharingan users and Jinchuriki can do so easily. Also any high level shinobi can avoid eye contact easily; sensors can do this a lot easier than others given that they'll be able to detect Itachi without needing to look at him.
Tsukuyomi could be included as it is basically a special ocular illusion.

Izanami is a special case.


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Krippy said:


> lolwat? Hebi Sauce countered all of Itachi's regular illusions and broke Tsukuyomi as well, Genjutsu is ineffective against someone who can see through it


Hebi Sauce didn't, Itachi could had kept him subjugated but decided to continue to set-up play (can't call their fight a battle as it's not even a true measure of Itachi skill). Dude, Itachi allowed Sasuke to break Tsukyomi... Also who can see through genjutsu? No high level ninja without a bijuu will be able to do so, especially when it's the best in the manga doing it.


Icegaze said:


> Speed is a good counter to genjutsu
> Can't genjutsu someone you can't keep up with
> Or clones is a good counter since they can't be genjutsu'd and can cancel gen on the original
> or being a sensor , or having the byakugan, or having sensing techniques
> so most high level can deal with his genjutsu just fine


Itachi blocked attacks from KCM Naruto and sword dance equipped with Samehada Bee. He also gave them heads up so they can react to his speed. Itachi is much faster than a lot of the high tier ninja just by those feats shown alone. 

Clones have never shown the ability to cancel genjutsu on the original so stop that nonsense. Also people with sensing like Shi from the cloud was caught in a genjutsu by someone not even close to Itachi in genjutsu very easily, so sensing isn't a counter. Byakugan have not shown a counter to genjustu but it will make sense. 

Anyway Itachi have been shown to be the fastest when it comes to clones, being able to create clones even when an EMS user is watching as well as subjugate someone under a genjutsu. So speed to counter Itachi is out because Itachi have shown countless times he can keep up with the best of them, and out quick even the fastest eyes and go taijutsu by only defending with someone with sage mode. SO SPEED IS NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO COUNTER ITACHI's REGULAR GENJUTSU. We have panels to everything I just brought up.. you on the other hand do not.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Hebi Sauce didn't, Itachi could had kept him subjugated but decided to continue to set-up play (can't call their fight a battle as it's not even a true measure of Itachi skill). Dude, Itachi allowed Sasuke to break Tsukyomi... Also who can see through genjutsu? No high level ninja without a bijuu will be able to do so, especially when it's the best in the manga doing it.
> 
> Itachi blocked attacks from KCM Naruto and sword dance equipped with Samehada Bee. He also gave them heads up so they can react to his speed. Itachi is much faster than a lot of the high tier ninja just by those feats shown alone.
> 
> ...



The clone can simply inject chakra into the original 
If you don't know that no point arguing with you 
Genjutsu cannot work on clones cannon!! So the clones can fight while the original is in genjutsu 
The clone will also be able to tell if something is wrong with the original by you know simply paying attention 
the rest of your post 
There are panels of KB countering genjutsu 
Panels which state 1 on 1 vs sharingan isn't the way to
Go
Which makes clones an easy way round that . Attack from both sides 
panels which clearly show kakashi asking hinata to confirm they weren't all in genjutsu against tobi
Panels which show karin confirming neither she or sasuke are in genjutsu 
Panels which show sensors don't need eye
Contact to keep fighting normally 
etc


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 7, 2013)

Killer Bee was nearly annihilated from being dipped about 2-3 seconds in normal base sharingan Genjutsu. Naruto seemed pretty worried about Itachi's Tsukuyomi when Bee was with him. If he felt two Jinchuriki with complete control over their bijuus were vulnerable to his Tsukuyomi, it's probably very strong. Had the crow not been in Naruto, he may have been killed. But we'll never know. 

With that being said, most top-tiers can avoid it if they know about it, but no- if you do not have a Sharingan, a Bijuu inside you or advanced chakra control you cannot break his base Sharingan Genjutsu at any interval.

Nobody is really breaking his Beast Tsukuyomi, it does it's damage in a mere second. EMS users might be able to deflect the illusion if they have their MS oculars active- but that's just speculation.

His normal Tsukyuomi, however, what he used on Sasuke, and what most EMS/MS users use, can probably be broken after awhile by EMS/MS users once they discover they're in the illusion.


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Kirabi countered his genjutsu just fine and Kakashi made it null by using a kage bunshin


He's a jinchurikki so the 8 tails knocked him out of it and plus Itachi told him not to look in his eyes. So it shows even high level ninja do not have enough discipline to avoid eye contact at all times. 


> Because those people know that there are counters to genjutsu such as being jinchiruki, using kage bunshin, using a summon as a partner, moving at such speed that you don't lock eyes with Itachi or fighting with your eyes closed. On top of that you have people who are simply godly like Hashirama who can reject edo tensei control with ease and that is a stronger control than genjutsu


Moving at high speeds is not going to necessarily save you from getting caught by Itachi's genjutsu as he able to emit it from his person, not just his eyes. Using his finger as focal point indicates he has the capacity to cast an illusion without eye contact. Essentially all of his opponents will be at a disadvantage because they simply can not look at him as it is deadly altogether. Itachi also have genjutsu that covers great distances and areas all together which will nullify any counters with Kage Bunshin and Summoned partners who he can subjugate with his sharingan's hypnosis ability. Edo Tensei is a ninjutsu, not a illusionary technique of which an illusionary technique casted by Itachi countered it all together. 



> Many people can. Kakashi did in the manga. Orochimaru did as well


Kakashi countered a clone Itachi who wanted to lose... Do you honestly think Itachi was serious? He always educates Kakashi on how to fight the sharingan and it's abilities without killing him. Orochimaru didn't do it in time to get his hand sliced off. Itachi let him live as well... Itachi never got serious with a konoha ninja. Ever. That is the reason people under-rate his genjutsu ability altogether.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> with regular sharingan is really GG for most of the ninja in the manga. People here in the battledome under-rate how actually great his proficiency with illusions really are.
> 
> First off it have been shown numerous times that Itachi's genjutsu can not be distinguished from reality. He can control people whle they are subjugated as was seen in his fight with Deidara. The strength of his genjutsu have been shown to have no counters unless he stops them or someone from the outside injects chakra in the person. He also have shown to weave other techiques while the person is subjugated which is actually something that should battles altogether.
> 
> ...



Yep, I 100% agree. People ignore the power of his specialty. Namely, the layered genjutsu that does work on dōjutsu and Itachi being able to expertly manipulate people in his illusions.

Similarly, people for a long time disregarded the possibility that genjutsu could be multitasked with movement or other techniques, and some still argue 'sustained' eye contact is necessary.

However, the clash with Killer Bee showed Itachi cast genjutsu, throw shuriken, and use a fire release all in the split second he was midair. The Hachibi reacted much faster than it did with Sasuke too.

And aside from that, the vast majority of Kages lack Killer Bee's automatic genjutsu defense and the reflexes to react after being freed. Hence base Itachi beats most Kages.​


Elite Uchiha said:


> Shikamaru > Sharingan genjutsu.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

These ninja can fight itachi without fear of being genjutsu trolled
Perfect jins ( juubito, naruto and killer bee ) 
Minato , tobirama , hashirama, Sm users, byakugan users, kakuzu, deidara
Zabuza, haku (both can fight with their eyes closed) , Ei, gai, kakashi 
am sure there are more but right there I just gave you 15 or so people


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> These ninja can fight itachi without fear of being genjutsu trolled
> Perfect jins ( juubito, naruto and killer bee )



Not if you count Tsukuyomi.
​


Icegaze said:


> Minato , tobirama



Minato isn't a sensor. Everybody felt Naruto's chakra.

C showed that sensors are by no means immune to genjutsu. Nor are their senses at the level of perfect Sages who can close their eyes and fight effectively due to being one with nature.

C actually told Darui that he'd be unable to fight if he were using his sensor ability. It basically mitigates attention in direct battle rather than enhacing it, unlike sage sensing.

Karen's comment about not feeling disturbance in her chakra also doesn't cut it, because Ao hyped Itachi as being the only illusionist that can control people without sensors being wise to it.​


Icegaze said:


> byakugan users



By closing their eyes? This is a misconception. Two-way eye contact isn't required, as we saw Killer Bee put in genjutsu through his very dark sunglasses a few times. 

All that's needed is for a ninja to use their ocular sense to see the Sharingan. So as far as that goes, Byakugan users are particularly vulnerable because they'd instantly see the Sharingan.​


Icegaze said:


> kakuzu, deidara



Kakuzu has a brain, unlike Sasori, and Sasori can probably be put in genjutsu anyway since he clearly has an ocular sense. Just like tailed beasts (who also have no brain but can be put in genjutsu.)

Deidara's method was never tested against layered genjutsu, but he lacks the reflexes to survive what Killer Bee survived anyway. 

Similarly, most of the people you listed can't afford to fight Itachi by severely limiting their sight to avoid his eyes and hands.

Not that Itachi couldn't squeeze into their vision anyway, as it's much easier than landing a physical jutsu. Plus Itachi's hyped with curving kunai into smaller blindspots.​


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Yep, I 100% agree. People ignore the power of his specialty. Namely, the layered genjutsu that does work on dōjutsu and Itachi being able to expertly manipulate people in his illusions.
> 
> Similarly, people for a long time disregarded the possibility that genjutsu could be multitasked with movement or other techniques, and some still argue 'sustained' eye contact is necessary.
> 
> ...



Bro you should bring up the panel when Itachi breaks free out of edo tensei, Nagato a sensor was only able to feel amaterasu but not the illusionary technique being emitted from the crow. That panel alone shows that sensors can not pick up on genjutsu... So sensing is not a counter to genjutsu as these dumbos is trying to argue.. Also Sage Kabuto who has arguable the best sensing still closed his eyes to not be caught by genjutsu by Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Not if you count Tsukuyomi.
> ​
> 
> 
> ...




naruto had no knowledge of bijuu breaking genjutsu through partner method. 
but i would agree though if you count tskuyomi itachi genjutsu would be hard to beat. 

no one is sayign being a sensor means you can defeat genjutsu when caught in it or are immune all anyone is saying is being a sensor allows you to avoid being caught. Shii fought with his eyes open despite not needing to, though his sensing skills pale in comparison to the top tier sensors 

your killer bee example is rather dumb!! killer bee can see through his shades cant he. his eyes arent closed. thats 2 way eye contact right there. Are you even trying to imply that regular sharingan genjutsu can work if a person eyes are closed!!! dont be stupid!!

actually the byakugan is only vulnerable in your fan fic, byakugan insight would allow them to see through the genjutsu. As well as see it coming, since they would see the obvious chakra build up in the sharingan users eyes before the genjutsu happens. Also diversionary genjutsu is the most dangerous of the regular sharingan genjutsu. eg: sasuke genjutsu against deidara. This wont work on byakugan since they are essentially sensors. Go back and read very well what hinata said when kakashi asked if they are in genjutsu 

The others which keep you from moving , i.e the stakes one ,are obvious to get out of. Once you know you are in regular genjutsu getting out of it given enough skill isnt hard. 

deidara method was proven to work on sasuke genjutsu, cannon, this layered genjutsu again is your fan fic which says it would work on deidara eyes. 

minato can casually avoid looking at itachi eyes, hirashin+using KB would make it easy for him
itachi wont be able to distinguish the original from the clone. Both of whom would be moving about with hirahsin. good luck to itachi landing genjutsu on either. Also he cant afford to risk tskuyomi because if he hits the clone, it would have no effect and itachi would have lost alot of chakra. 

tobirama can use the same strategy!!...

anyone who knows they are fighting the sharigan can simply fight with clones. its that simple. 

Now if they are less skilled than itachi it wont help them much, so no one is saying konohamaru wont be genjtusu GG'd 

Ei wont have to look at itachi eyes because he will be blitzing and attacking from behind like he did against sasuke. Gai will apply the same strategy ETC

tskuyomi is itachi only way to genjutsu GG a top tier. regular genjutsu wont cut it, 
the characters i mentioned can work around it and can probably break out of it when caught 

however tskuyomi is GG, i admit.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Don't facepalm me, bra! The partner method was stated multiple times to not work against Tsukuyomi, and I think it's reasonable that Naruto knew Bee's relationship with his beast from their training arc.

I ought to leave right now, so I'll get back to the rest of your post later on. ​


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

sorry for the facepalm bra 
i agree with you tskuyomi still GG despite partner method no one is arguing with you on that 
However like i said you cannot prove naruto knew of the partner method 
thats all am saying 

get back to me on the rest of my post when you can


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 7, 2013)

I'm feeling numb enough to come in and post here. Plus, I don't know what else to do with myself. So without further ado.





Icegaze said:


> naruto had no knowledge of bijuu breaking genjutsu through partner method.



But Naruto does know the partner method doesn't work. As we see when Kirabi was under genjutsu, Gyuki does not share Kirabi's experiences, so in a time compressed illusion like Tsukuyomi, Kirabi would be hit by the full force of it prior to Gyuki being able to break him out.


> deidara method was proven to work on sasuke genjutsu, cannon, this layered genjutsu again is your fan fic which says it would work on deidara eyes.



We never saw Deidara's eyes tested like that. It seems to me that he trained his one eye to operate like a dojutsu to see through illusions. Just as Sasuke only saw through one layer of Itachi's illusions at a time, Deidara seeing through one layer of genjutsu doesn't mean he can see through them all at once.


Strategoob said:


> some still argue 'sustained' eye contact is necessary



At the start of the match? Absolutely. Itachi needs to mold the chakra. Furthermore, range matters for speed. The chakra has to travel the distance between the eyes. It doesn't teleport.


Almondsand said:


> Clones have never shown the ability to cancel genjutsu on the original so stop that nonsense



It's a simple matter of injecting chakra.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Also any high level shinobi can avoid eye contact easily; sensors can do this a lot easier than others given that they'll be able to detect Itachi without needing to look at him.



But Jiraiya also noted that fighting blind is beyond regular sensing. It takes perfect sage sensing to do that. While I agree that avoiding eye contact is, in principle, easy, it could prove difficult over the long haul against an opponent who can create openings to force eye contact. Furthermore, false images or subtle influence could be used from Itachi's finger genjutsu to cause them to fall into his Sharingan genjutsu. 


Icegaze said:


> However kakuzu should have no issues against such etc



He might be in a better position that most to break Sharingan genjutsu by using multiple chakra sources for his Kai, but he is in no better position than any high tier to notice he is in genjutsu.


Elite Uchiha said:


> Tayuga's genjutsu is superior to sharingan genjutsu as noted in the Kabuto vs Itachi + Sasuke battle. A simple bite on the lip > genjutsu.



Kabuto's sage chakra would be superior to Tayuya's own. And the level of pain needed to break an illusion would depend, likely, on a combination of the power of the illusion and the skill of the target in focusing through illusions. For instance, Shikamaru should have bitten his lip had it been that simple. But bone pain is much more painful, and required ninjutsu, indicating that was what was necessary for his mind to refocus.


Almondsand said:


> What I am trying to figure out is why people say that a shinobi can beat him because of the hype over one technique yet Itachi who has hype for illusionary techniques, have shown feats and multipurpose with them, yet people always say Minato or Tobirama or Kakashi or any ninja they feel gets a power-up or unfounded hype can counter it no problem.



Because hype matters to most posters. Saying, "no problem" is a problem, but none of these shinobi have actually faced Itachi's genjutsu in the manga so we can't say that them not beating it is "feats only" when they haven't been given the opportunity to beat it. So if you want to say that Itachi is going to effortlessly one shot Itachi with a genjutsu at the start of the match...

Well then, you have to ask yourself, "would Kishi ever present the fight that way?"





Almondsand said:


> That's why I asked who besides jinchurriki can counter his regular genjutsu? Also Sasuke couldn't counter Itachi's regular genjutsu, he decided to put it down and that is Sasuke powered up with Orochimaru and a three tomoe sharingan.



Sasuke saw through each and every illusion, and ultimately broke out. Now it's true, had Itachi been going all out, he could have taken advantage of Sasuke's confidence after having seen through the first layer of the genjutsu and "tricked" Itachi with his own illusion and attacked in the real world. Now, sustaining a layered genjutsu capable of fooling a Sharingan user while performing other actions  is not something even Itachi has demonstrated so Sasuke could likely penetrate it at that point, however, a Bunshin feint at that interval could have forced Sasuke to use Orochi Kawarami at the very beginning of the fight. 
And Orochimaru's power isn't relevant, since it isn't like it helped Orochimaru.





Icegaze said:


> Speed is a good counter to genjutsu



It's not a hard counter, however. You would have to be moving at Ei-Shunshin like speeds or above _non stop_ to avoid genjutsu this way.


> Or clones is a good counter since they can't be genjutsu'd



Clones can be genjutsu'd. After all, we saw Kakashi's Bunshin languishing under the effects of Itachi's genjutsu. The proper translation of Itachi's comment at that point was "I wouldn't have expected genjutsu to affect you". Indicating that Kakashi himself would have been able to escape Itachi's Sharingan genjutsu and the Bunshin was simply failing to do this to hold Itachi down and distract him. 


> or being a sensor , or having the byakugan, or having sensing techniques



Which inform them that they are in a genjutsu. It doesn't break it. Only if the genjutsu is as simple as a false image, while otherwise operating in the real world, does knowing you are in a genjutsu do all the work you need.





Almondsand said:


> Dude, Itachi allowed Sasuke to break Tsukyomi..



Then there would have been little panel in showing Sasuke bring out Juin powered senjutsu and altering his own eye as if to make it more potent. Itachi certainly didn't use Tsukuyomi as effectively as he could, since it creates phantom pain even for those who break it, but he used Tsukuyomi knowing that Sasuke would be able to handle it. Since unlike say, Amaterasu, which is just a gamble, he doesn't have to play around with Tsukuyomi. 





Almondsand said:


> So it shows even high level ninja do not have enough discipline to avoid eye contact at all times..



Except Kirabi didn't seem to make any effort to do so since Gyuki can pretty much instantly snap him out of it anyway and it can even give him an element of surprise against less cautious genjutsu users like Sasuke.


> Moving at high speeds is not going to necessarily save you from getting caught by Itachi's genjutsu as he able to emit it from his person, not just his eyes. Using his finger as focal point indicates he has the capacity to cast an illusion without eye contact.



True, but he has only demonstrated that ability through his hands. And without the hypnotic and special power of the Sharingan, his illusion will not be as powerful. 


> Itachi also have genjutsu that covers great distances and areas all together



Itachi has no AOE or long distance genjutsu. He can sustain genjutsu he has already cost from a great distance, but that isn't the same.


> Edo Tensei is a ninjutsu, not a illusionary technique of which an illusionary technique casted by Itachi countered it all together.



But the principle of control by flowing chakra through the brain is the same. It's why Kotoamatsukami was able to overrule Kabuto's command.





Strategoob said:


> Minato isn't a sensor. Everybody felt Naruto's chakra.



Lol. That's weak. Every sensor in the room felt Naruto's chakra. Hiruzen didn't feel it because he's not a sensor.


> C actually told Darui that he'd be unable to fight if he were using his sensor ability. It basically mitigates attention in direct battle rather than enhacing it, unlike sage sensing.



It depends on the skill of the sensor, no doubt. Like everything else. Shi is a very average sensor. 


> Karen's comment about not feeling disturbance in her chakra also doesn't cut it, because Ao hyped Itachi as being the only illusionist that can control people without sensors being wise to it.



No, Ao hyped Itachi being able to maintain genjutsu from outside the sensor's range. The sensors at HQ are using broad spectrum sensing to track life forms....they are not looking for, or capable of, sensing the particular details of individual jutsu from that distance. They never demonstrated anything like that. They couldn't, after all, inform the Nidaime Mizukage's opponents where he really was after all. 


> All that's needed is for a ninja to use their ocular sense to see the Sharingan. So as far as that goes, Byakugan users are particularly vulnerable because they'd instantly see the Sharingan.



For it to be the focus of their eye, that is. The Byakugan has almost 360 degree peripheral vision but it isn't focused on all points at once. We have never seen someone caught in Sharingan genjutsu through peripheral vision.


> Sasori can probably be put in genjutsu anyway since he clearly has an ocular sense. Just like tailed beasts (who also have no brain but can be put in genjutsu.)



I don't think Bijuu lack brains. They have stomachs just like a regular creature and other physical features just like a regular creature.


> Similarly, most of the people you listed can't afford to fight Itachi by severely limiting their sight to avoid his eyes and hands



Fighting while avoiding eye contact is easy. Avoiding the hands altogether isn't necessary, since when Itachi uses finger genjutsu, he draws attention to his hands first. That actually is an instance where speed could help, since unlike his Sharingan genjutsu, his finger genjutsu doesn't have the same speed casting feats, so if you see him trying to draw attention to his hands, one might avert their eyes. 





Almondsand said:


> Bro you should bring up the panel when Itachi breaks free out of edo tensei, Nagato a sensor was only able to feel amaterasu but not the illusionary technique being emitted from the crow.Also Sage Kabuto who has arguable the best sensing still closed his eyes to not be caught by genjutsu by Itachi.



Of course you can't sense what you aren't paying attention for. Kabuto thought he was immune to genjutsu and Nagato wasn't looking for genjutsu from the crow...he was paying attention to Itachi.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I'm feeling numb enough to come in and post here. Plus, I don't know what else to do with myself. So without further ado.
> 
> But Naruto does know the partner method doesn't work. As we see when Kirabi was under genjutsu, Gyuki does not share Kirabi's experiences, so in a time compressed illusion like Tsukuyomi, Kirabi would be hit by the full force of it prior to Gyuki being able to break him out.
> 
> ...



the proper translation on that issue says kakashi clone was immune to genjutsu hence why the KB wasnt affected by genjutsu. Look at the panels, you dont see the clone feeling any effects of the genjutsu. the clone held on to itachi just fine. Therefore clones are a good way to counter genjutsu because they are immune. 

i already said partner method wont work on tskuyomi, so we agree on that. 

i also never said byakugan means you can break out, like i said diversionary genjutsu will be seen through simply because they have 359 degree vision. being in genjutsu wont stop them from sensing whats around them. Again if byakugan could be so easily tricked by genjutsu, why did kakashi ask hinata to confirm that they werent in genjutsu????

i agree moving at Ei speed is needed to continue to avoid eye contact if you dont have clones and arent a sensor, so minato should have no problems avoiding eye contact. Gai shouldnt either, while not as fast as Ei he should be very very fast

Eg; if jiraiya is using his sensing barrier he doesnt need to look at itachi to fight him now does he? he can simply keep track of him and attack. since the barrier works as his senses. byakugan users can do the same thing automatically. kabuto also proved sensors can outright close their eyes and fight. 

you dont need Sm sensing to do that. We have already seen tobirama without Sm is an excellent sensor, so is Muu. both have no SM.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi's Genjutsu feats are the most overhyped things on any area of the forum. Itachi's Genjutsu constantly touted as an instant One-shot technique and we're not ever talking Tsukuyomi or Izanami here;' we're talking Three Tome and Finger Genjutsu. Despite the list of the characters who even got trapped by it being:

1. Start of Part II Naruto
2. Rookie Deidara who only showed C1 and never seemed to even hear of Sharingan before
3. Post Wind Training Base Naruto
4. Orochimaru

1 & 2 are fodder compared to any Part II Skilled/Elite Jonin, not even Kage

3. Is inferior to any Kage and inferior to most highly skilled Jonin in exp/common sense, yet still he put up a good enough defense where Itachi needed to use Shisui Eye crow

4. Is thee only Kage Class individual. Though he was indicated to be overly arrogant and careless in that battle due to his lust for Sharigan and not understanding the bloodline itself in DB III. What's more he is one of thee worst equipped Kage Class Ninja to take on Sharingan Genjutsu as he is one of the easiest Kage Class individuals to make eye contact with. 

Raikges have insane speed/reflexes making them difficult to maintain eye contact with long enough for Genjutsu

Mei has demonic Mist & Nindaime Mizukage has Clam Mist as well as his style to hide out while having Joki boi fight for him

Kazekages have Sand LOS Blockers, Third Eye, Flight, and Superior speed to Orochimaru with their Sand acting as a hover craft

Mu has chakra sensing invisibility, while Onoki has great speed with his flight, slow down his opponents dramatically, and can spam Iwa Bushin

And I don't think I even need to get into the Hokages.

So basically we have it working on the Kage Class person individually least equipped in arsenal and mind-set to deal with it and even still it did not one-shot him just resulted in his hand being cut off an injury that insignificant to Orochimaru on any other level than wounding his pride.

Yet the perception of these techniques is that executing them against even shinobi who excel beyond the typical Kage level and many times have knowledge of Uchiha/Sharingan/Genjutsu is easy and they ensure instant victory for Itachi.

I'm not saying these techniques are useless against higher tier character and could never trip them up, but to hear there feats are underestimate is just joke material that I laugh at, at this point.


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## Icegaze (Aug 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu feats are the most overhyped things on any area of the forum. Itachi's Genjutsu constantly touted as an instant One-shot technique and we're not ever talking Tsukuyomi or Izanami here;' we're talking Three Tome and Finger Genjutsu. Despite the list of the characters who even got trapped by it being:
> 
> 1. Start of Part II Naruto
> 2. Rookie Deidara who only showed C1 and never seemed to even hear of Sharingan before
> ...



only problem with your post is gaara 3rd eye
its not a counter to genjutsu. its connected to his optic nerve. so thats a big bulls eye for itachi right there. The rest i agree with


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Hebi Sauce didn't, Itachi could had kept him subjugated but decided to continue to set-up play (can't call their fight a battle as it's not even a true measure of Itachi skill). Dude, Itachi allowed Sasuke to break Tsukyomi... Also who can see through genjutsu? No high level ninja without a bijuu will be able to do so, especially when it's the best in the manga doing it.
> 
> Itachi blocked attacks from KCM Naruto and sword dance equipped with Samehada Bee. He also gave them heads up so they can react to his speed. Itachi is much faster than a lot of the high tier ninja just by those feats shown alone.
> 
> ...



Naruto wasn't even trying to destroy itachi.  He was talking to him...


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> only problem with your post is gaara 3rd eye
> its not a counter to genjutsu. its connected to his optic nerve. so thats a big bulls eye for itachi right there. The rest i agree with


It connects to the optic nerve using chakra. I don't think Itachi can project his chakra through a Sand eye which does not have a chakra system & back through Garaa's own chakra all the way to his eye.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 7, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> the proper translation on that issue says kakashi clone was immune to genjutsu hence why the KB wasnt affected by genjutsu. Look at the panels, you dont see the clone feeling any effects of the genjutsu. the clone held on to itachi just fine. Therefore clones are a good way to counter genjutsu because they are immune.



Kakashi's Bunshin was clearly caught by Itachi's genjutsu. He held on, however, because Kakashi with his Sharingan can actually fight Itachi's genjutsu. Since, even in Part I, Itachi confirmed that Kakashi should be able to muster some resistance to ordinary Mangekyo Sharingan genjutsu. He tightened his grip after Itachi released the illusion since he realized Kakashi wanted him to be occupied with that. And pay attention to what was said: I wouldn't expect you to be effected by genjutsu. 

It was _because_ Kakashi was effected by it that Itachi realized it was a Kage Bunshin. Because Kakashi didn't want the clone to break the illusion. It has nothing to do, nothing at all, with Kage Bunshin and genjutsu. They are neither more nor less effected by genjutsu.


> i also never said byakugan means you can break out, like i said diversionary genjutsu will be seen through simply because they have 359 degree vision. being in genjutsu wont stop them from sensing whats around them. Again if byakugan could be so easily tricked by genjutsu, why did kakashi ask hinata to confirm that they werent in genjutsu????



I didn't say they were easily tricked. They aren't. However, it depends on the level of the Byakugan compared to the level of the genjutsu. Could a two tomoe Part I Sasuke have seen through Itachi's Sharingan genjutsu? Honestly, I doubt it. 


> i agree moving at Ei speed is needed to continue to avoid eye contact if you dont have clones and arent a sensor, so minato should have no problems avoiding eye contact. Gai shouldnt either, while not as fast as Ei he should be very very fast



Avoiding eye contact is relatively easy. The trick is avoiding eye contact when your opponent is setting up distractions and Bunshin feints etc to force you to make eye contact. However, no one, not Minato, not Ei, and not Gai move around at full speed constantly. It would make it hard for Itachi to pin them down and force eye contact, but it would also make it hard for them to actually launch an organized and well planned offense.

Speed just isn't a real answer to genjutsu. 


> Eg; if jiraiya is using his sensing barrier he doesnt need to look at itachi to fight him now does he? he can simply keep track of him and attack. since the barrier works as his senses. byakugan users can do the same thing automatically. kabuto also proved sensors can outright close their eyes and fight.
> 
> you dont need Sm sensing to do that. We have already seen tobirama without Sm is an excellent sensor, so is Muu. both have no SM.



Kabuto is a sage sensor. That is the highest level of sensing when it comes to details. It allowed Naruto to visualize distant battles with great detail. Jiraiya confirmed that sensing can't let you fight blind efficiently and you can see why with Ino's sensing, which doesn't give you enough detail to know exactly what the opponent is doing. For instance, shruiken would be invisible to a sensor because they have no chakra. Plus, if you rely entirely on sensing, even sage sensing, Itachi can still trick you since his stealth was enough to Bunshin feint even Kabuto. Evidently, he can suppress his chakra to virtually nil.


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

Kakashi knocked out 2 ANBU, which are supposed to be the Leaf's best, with Sharingan simultaneously and he is inferior to Itachi in terms of Genjutsu. Its safe to say Itachi can put out high level opponents with Genjutsu if not restrain them for the necessary time to kill them.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Kakashi knocked out 2 ANBU, which are supposed to be the Leaf's best, with Sharingan simultaneously and he is inferior to Itachi in terms of Genjutsu. Its safe to say Itachi can put out high level opponents with Genjutsu if not restrain them for the necessary time to kill them.



ANBU are the nameless faceless fodder.  
They are supposed to be elite shinobi, but I don't think I have ever seen them depicted in that light.


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> ANBU are the nameless faceless fodder.
> They are supposed to be elite shinobi, but I don't think I have ever seen them depicted in that light.



ANBU are only ever seen fighting high level opponents and rarely get showings. Also the two Kakashi took out were squad captains and members of ROOT. Point is they are some of the best in Konoha and Kakashi takes them out with his Genjutsu so anyone can imagine what Itachi is capable of.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Fodder isn't a feat.

That is like saying sakura killed a white zetsu was a feat.
Any fucking body could kill a zetsu.  I could kill a damn zetsu!


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## Ennoia (Aug 7, 2013)

No because white Zetsu has never been called elite. Not every ninja can be Kage level because thats what you seem to be asking for in a shinobi for him not to be considered fodder. ANBU are at least mid level jonin. Danzo even took 2 of his members as Bodyguards so that shows that they are not fodder simply because they dont have the manga focused on them.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 7, 2013)

ANBU are chuunin level ninja


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

They are only called elite by name.  They have no feats themselves.  They are fodder!


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kabuto is a sage sensor. That is the highest level of sensing when it comes to details. It allowed Naruto to visualize distant battles with great detail. Jiraiya confirmed that sensing can't let you fight blind efficiently and you can see why with Ino's sensing, which doesn't give you enough detail to know exactly what the opponent is doing. For instance, shruiken would be invisible to a sensor because they have no chakra. Plus, if you rely entirely on sensing, even sage sensing, Itachi can still trick you since his stealth was enough to Bunshin feint even Kabuto. Evidently, he can suppress his chakra to virtually nil.


Subtle I think it totally depends on the level of the sensor. Of course someone like Ino is not good enough where she can track someone like Itachi's moves efficiently enough with sensing. However when you start to get into more advanced sensors whether Sage or otherwise than they have shown that sensing would be very efficient in combating Sharingan-Mangekyo's capabilities. 

To give some examples. Mu was able to react to Naruto's attack perfectly despite it being from outside his field vision, due his sensing abilities:
Ino's sensing, which doesn't give you enough detail to know exactly what the opponent is doing

Like wise Karin was stated to be an advance enough sensor where her sensing extended for roughly 6 miles, can sense any chakra setup her enemy takes, all the way down to precise calculations of their movement speed, etc... 

Nagato was able to sense exactly when a Dojutsu user was gathering chakra to their eye and so was Obito.

Than we have Tobirama who showed an even more insane range of chakra sensing, the ability to sense down to cell level, and figure out what clan a person belongs to simply by sensing their chakra

Kisame also was able to fight Killer B while blinded by the Ink, but than again hid did have the terrain advantage.

So i'm pretty sure advanced enough sensors could fight w/o their vision proficiently. And certainly in the case of a Dojutsu users they could sense when they are gathering chakra to their eyes and than avoid or block LOS to prevent being caught or hit by a Dojutsu technique, since we've seen that strategy in the manga cannon.

Of course someone like Karin would still probably get Genjutsu'd since Itachi would simply blitz her appearing right in her face, but Karin is fodder level compared to Itachi anyway in combat ability.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> At the start of the match? Absolutely. Itachi needs to mold the chakra. Furthermore, range matters for speed. The chakra has to travel the distance between the eyes. It doesn't teleport.



I don't think genjutsu works by little lasers of chakra. Rather, a sequence of chakra is built up in an object, and seeing this object and sequence naturally triggers reactions in the brain. 

For instance, I don't think the Moons Eye Plan is telegraphing bits of chakra back and forth hundreds of thousands of miles, but that simply seeing it will cause the onlooker's brain to enter Tsukuyomi. 

And if it were, then it's so fast that it doesn't really matter unless Obito expects people to stare at the moon for a few minutes before the genjutsu takes effect, in which case it's a pretty bad plan.​


Elite Uchiha said:


> ANBU are chuunin level ninja



Chūnin is "Middle Ninja," like the Demon Brothers. ANBU are undoubtedly "High Ninja" as they're handpicked by the Hokage for upper class missions and were exempt from typical policing.

Rank means almost nothing in the manga relative to named characters as part one Shikamaru captured ten "beyond Chūnin" ninja, and Asuma blitzed them all in a moment. ​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Lol. That's weak. Every sensor in the room felt Naruto's chakra. Hiruzen didn't feel it because he's not a sensor.



Fact.
​


Icegaze said:


> Shii fought with his eyes open despite not needing to, though his sensing skills pale in comparison to the top tier sensors



I don't think C, Karen, or any sensor can fight with their eyes closed. That technique is not as freely used or ubiquitous as perfect sage sensing. Nobody's ever done it because it's not possible.​


Icegaze said:


> your killer bee example is rather dumb!! killer bee can see through his shades cant he. his eyes arent closed. thats 2 way eye contact right there. Are you even trying to imply that regular sharingan genjutsu can work if a person eyes are closed!!! dont be stupid!!



Sasuke couldn't see Bee's eyes. They're concealed by sunglasses. So the eye contact isn't two ways, just like the Moon's Eye Plan doesn't mean the moon has to look at your eyes.​


Icegaze said:


> Go back and read very well what hinata said when kakashi asked if they are in genjutsu



So you think Hinata's immune to Itachi's genjutsu? ​


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> I think it totally* depends on the level* of the sensor. Of course someone like Ino is not good enough where she can track someone like Itachi's moves efficiently enough with sensing. However when you start to get into more advanced sensors whether Sage or otherwise than they have shown that sensing would be very efficient in combating Sharingan-Mangekyo's capabilities.



Itachi bunshin feinted a perfect sage easily...

All the people you listed is null from that factual evidence in the manga. Itachi showed he can enter seamlessly through sensors before they figure what is going on. Itachi also bypasses sensory barriers over Konoha that were on high alert. This all happen in the manga.. lol u mad


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi bunshin feinted a perfect sage easily...
> 
> All the people you listed is null from that factual evidence in the manga. Itachi showed he can enter seamlessly through sensors before they figure what is going on. Itachi also bypasses sensory barriers over Konoha that were on high alert. This all happen in the manga.. lol u mad


Dude i'm not going to discuss stuff with you, when your trolling in such a transparent way.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Itachi bunshin feinted a perfect sage easily...
> 
> All the people you listed is null from that factual evidence in the manga. Itachi showed he can enter seamlessly through sensors before they figure what is going on. Itachi also bypasses sensory barriers over Konoha that were on high alert. This all happen in the manga.. lol u mad



Itachi knew the password...  He didn't bypass shit.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 7, 2013)

Where did you pull a "password" from?


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

When pain infiltrated Konan asked why he couldn't infiltrate the same way Itachi did.
His response was that itachi knew the password.


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Turrin said:


> Dude i'm not going to discuss stuff with you, when your trolling in such a transparent way.



Reason is because my points are actually backed by the manga while you bring up other scenarios in the manga that is irrelevant to the discussion. 

You are obviously upset that there is nothing valid and hard pressed enough to devalue the potency and versatility of Itachi's genjutsu skill shown in the manga.


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## Almondsand (Aug 7, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Where did you pull a "password" from?



These guys are just... reaching.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> These guys are just... reaching.



Yah, you are right. 
Itachi infiltrated unnoticed in Konoha with his magical hidden powers!  
Which he can apparently share with Kisame....

Yah, that makes WAY more sense!
Way more believable than logical factual events from the series.


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## Veracity (Aug 7, 2013)

I honestly think anybody with a strong will, or anybody with extreme power can simply just avoid or break out of Genjustu. Cause I have no idea how(through his countless battles with EMS Madara) that Hashirama didn't fall into a Genjustu once. I just don't think Genjustu works against him.


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## Turrin (Aug 7, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Reason is because my points are actually backed by the manga while you bring up other scenarios in the manga that is irrelevant to the discussion.
> 
> You are obviously upset that there is nothing valid and hard pressed enough to devalue the potency and versatility of Itachi's genjutsu skill shown in the manga.


Okay, whatever you want to think bro


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> Naruto wasn't even trying to destroy itachi.  He was talking to him...



Itachi wasn't even trying to destroy Naruto. He was talking to him...






















Do you see what is wrong with that reasoning now?

Yeah, no; Itachi and Naruto were just evenly matched.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi wasn't even trying to destroy Naruto. He was talking to him...



He was being controlled and forced to fight.  
He could still talk though.  Naruto wasn't trying to kill him, sorry.



Nikushimi said:


> Yeah, no; Itachi and Naruto were just evenly matched.


Itachi is nowhere near KCM naruto's speed, sorry.
That is just ridiculous.


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## crisler (Aug 7, 2013)

The problem with Itachis' genjutsu is that, even a same, normal genjutsu works much more deadly with him.

Remember when Sasuke used a simple genjutsu on Danzou? 

Itachi uses something very similar with his base, so fast and without a trace that confuses other people.

When in need, he uses ones that causes mental breakdowns: like against Naruto, showing images of Sasuke, Sakura etc

In other occasions he uses it that's difficult to distinguish from reality. Meaning, if the enemy's aware that they might be in genjutsu, it's fine, but if they're not they might really end up killing themselves.

The key is to never trust yourself. Never be sure you've 100% avoided being caught. In fact, do the opposite: that you're always in a danger of it. That's how his genjutsu works: merge it with reality and confuse others.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> He was being controlled and forced to fight.



That's beside the point; arguing that Naruto had to be holding back just because he was talking is demonstrably untrue in Itachi's case, which I was using as an analogy to show how silly it was in Naruto's case.



> He could still talk though.  Naruto wasn't trying to kill him, sorry.



Based on what evidence? You can apologize to me after you've provided some or conceded that you don't have any.



> Itachi is nowhere near KCM naruto, sorry.
> That is just ridiculous.



It happened. You're the one trying to make excuses why it happened but isn't true.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> That's beside the point; arguing that Naruto had to be holding back just because he was talking is demonstrably untrue in Itachi's case, which I was using as an analogy to show how silly it was in Naruto's case.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why would that be silly?
That makes no sense.

Its not an excuse, it is a fact.
Simple logic brah.  Apply it!


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> Why would that be silly?
> That makes no sense.



No, the argument that Naruto was holding back because he was talking makes no sense; you don't have to hold back to talk while you're fighting, which is something I bothered to illustrate rather poignantly with Itachi by inverting your argument in his favor.



> Its not an excuse, it is a fact.
> Simple logic brah.  Apply it!



The only "fact" is that Itachi and Naruto were evenly matched; any further explanation is just your own poor attempt at rationalizing what you refuse to believe.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

Itachi can't respond to his questions if he is floating in pieces!  
Herp derp!

And time was of course a huge factor.  He knew it wouldn't take long before Kabuto took over full control!


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> Itachi can't respond to his questions if he is floating in pieces!
> Herp derp!



Neither can Naruto. What's your point?



> And time was of course a huge factor.  He knew it wouldn't take long before Kabuto took over full control!



And you know this...how?


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 7, 2013)

No, because itachi was controlled.
I guess he could have been resisting to some degree.  Either way, one or both weren't serious, thus its not a feat for either.

Common sense?  It would be the safe assumption to make actually.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 7, 2013)

FairyTailisBack said:


> No, because itachi was controlled.
> I guess he could have been resisting to some degree.  Either way, one or both weren't serious, thus its not a feat for either.
> 
> Common sense?  It would be the safe assumption to make actually.



"Common sense" is just another way of saying "What I believe isn't based on any empirical evidence but a lot of people seem to agree with me so LOL IDK WHATEVS."

How about we provide a little substantiation before we go making wild claims based on "common sense," hm?

In case you hadn't noticed, my statement about Itachi holding back was ironic; I was trying to show you what was wrong with you just arbitrarily claiming that Naruto was holding back based on the fact that he was talking.

I really don't see any reason to believe either of them were holding back; they fought evenly and nobody ever gave a particular excuse for it. B even tried to jump Itachi from behind and that just totally failed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

This doesnt need a poll but what do people think. can kage bunshin be affected by genjutsu. Those for and against explain why again. I thought they couldnt be but people are saying they are. 
Also with KB for itachi to run the battle he will have to have genjtusu'd both the clone and the original which cant be easy. 

ps: there is nothing like genjutsu immunity, however being a sensor does help you know when your chakra is being fucked with. 
Also sage sensing isnt the best sensing there is. There is nothign that kabuto did or that SM naruto did that tobirama cant do with his sensing, or that Muu cant do. 

please note madara had to hold down Ei to genjtusu him, it was 5 vs 1. So Ei speed is troublesome even to madara. Just pointing that out.

I guess most people against genjutsu effectiveness are sick of genjutusu GG even though i havent seen that in a while


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 8, 2013)

Itachi's genjutsu is a threat to anyone around Oro's level unless ofc they have exclusive counters. 
And even then, we've seen how B escaped by the skin of his teeth despite being a perfect Jin. Had Hachibee acted a little slower or B wasn't such an excellent CQC fighter with top notch speed and reactions, he'd be in a world of trouble.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi's genjutsu is a threat to anyone around Oro's level unless ofc they have exclusive counters.
> And even then, we've seen how B escaped by the skin of his teeth despite being a perfect Jin. Had Hachibee acted a little slower or B wasn't such an excellent CQC fighter with top notch speed and reactions, he'd be in a world of trouble.



so would you say using KB isnt a valid counter?
you know sensors like tobirama can close their eyes and fight just fine like kabuto did. No reason to believe kabuto is a better sensor. Tobirama did after all sense chakra to the point of familial similarity thats quite impressive. So did Muu

so yes like you said a threat to anyone who doesnt have counters but i count at 18 characters who are top tier who do. Hence why  itachi genjutsu GG isnt valid

here is a list tell me why you disagree with each this question is only to Grimmjowsensei!!

1)Minato
2)Muu
3)tobirama
4)Hashirama
5)Naruto
6)killer bee
7)kakashi
8)madara
9)obito
10) jiraiya 
11) zabuza - the first only none top tier to be able to avoid genjutsu GG
12) haku- the second for the same reason
13) 2nd mizukage
14) nagato
15) sasuke
16) Ei- madara fought 5 on 1 and needed to hold him down to genjutsu
17) Gai
18) onoki

i know his sharingan isnt the only way to cast genjutsu, however it is his most often used method and most lethal
ps: not saying they all beat itachi, however itachi wont be winning due to genjutsu GG
it still doesnt mean i dont believe he cant catch any of them in genjutsu
he can but his genjutsu will be supplementary and wont be the deciding factor in the match.


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## Blu-ray (Aug 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> so would you say using KB isnt a valid counter?
> you know sensors like tobirama can close their eyes and fight just fine like kabuto did. No reason to believe kabuto is a better sensor. Tobirama did after all sense chakra to the point of familial similarity thats quite impressive. So did Muu
> 
> so yes like you said a threat to anyone who doesnt have counters but i count at 18 characters who are top tier who do. Hence why  itachi genjutsu GG isnt valid
> ...



Everyone that can sense can fight with their eyes closed? Where did you get that? Kabuto trained to do that, had better sensing than most, and pointed out that his snake abilities also helped him in this area. The snake tongue smelling and all. Not to mention the reflexes and speed Sage Mode gave him. It's like saying all people can use Gai's foot watching strategy without training. It doesn't even matter against Itachi anyway, as you already know he can cast genjutsu as easily as pointing, or opening his cloak.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Everyone that can sense can fight with their eyes closed? Where did you get that? Kabuto trained to do that, had better sensing than most, and pointed out that his snake abilities also helped him in this area. The snake tongue smelling and all. Not to mention the reflexes and speed Sage Mode gave him. It's like saying all people can use Gai's foot watching strategy without training. It doesn't even matter against Itachi anyway, as you already know he can cast genjutsu as easily as pointing, or opening his cloak.



now you are making stuff up 
who said or where was it said kabuto trained to do that??
also what makes his sensing better than the top tiers who are sensors that i mentioned go on ill wait. 
again am not saying these people can avoid genjutsu for ever but to make it sound as if he can defeat the likes of Muu in 3 seconds because of genjutsu GG is outlandish at best.


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 8, 2013)

Manga proves KB >>>>> genjutsu. Move on already. Shit, Tayuya's genjutsu is on par with the sharingan and Shikamaru broke out of that


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

^lol i wont quite put it that way but i agree in someways
hence why i never got the itachi genjutsu GG hype 
doesnt mean he cant genjutsu GG the likes of asuma though


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## Almondsand (Aug 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I honestly think anybody with a strong will, or anybody with extreme power can simply just avoid or break out of Genjustu. Cause I have no idea how(through his countless battles with EMS Madara) that Hashirama didn't fall into a Genjustu once. I just don't think Genjustu works against him.


Madara affinity is obviously not genjutsu, him and Sasuke seem to have the same affinity towards ninjutsu and skill in genjutsu. When Madara did genjutsu on the Raikage it did the same effect as Sasuke's genjutsu did on Killer Bee. Itachi use illusions where you can not tell if you are inside it or not. If you ever seen the movie Inception then you would be hard pressed not to notice Itachi's genjutsu have the same effect as people not knowing the difference between reality and illusion.


crisler said:


> The problem with Itachis' genjutsu is that, even a same,* normal genjutsu works much more deadly with him.*
> 
> Remember when Sasuke used a simple genjutsu on Danzou?
> 
> ...



Excellent post! People do not understand that Itachi is not a regular ninja when it comes to genjutsu, he has been the only one in the manga that have shown skill to catch people in genjutsu without them even knowing. If you do not know you are in a genjutsu then how can you break it? Not only that but he has an Inception quality to his genjutsu, he can keep people subjugated without moving to kill. No top tier ninja have shown anything to counter any of that and the fact is I doubt anyone will have experience to deal with it as he have been shown to be the best. Even AO didn't think about anyone else in the history of ninja that can have genjutsu so good that even sensors can not tell and control many ninja from outside of range. That should tell you that Itachi is on another level and his genjutsu is pretty much gg.. it's not simple to counter his genjutsu at all because he is the master.


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## FairyTailisBack (Aug 8, 2013)

Ao was just throwing out wild guesses to explain what was happening.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

^ lol right, and people take that random statement at face value


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## korykal (Aug 8, 2013)

Hmmm ... a lot of people have a chance of evading it WITH KNOWLEDGE . Well here is my opinion :

- People who can avoid eye contact through special taijutsu ( Guy ) , being able to fight with eyes closed ( Kabuto , Zabuza , possibly Hiruzen ) or having very precise detecting jutsu ( Karin , Jiraiya's barrier )

- People who manage to keep their true position hidden ( mist users  ,  Muu , maybe Troll kage as not even sensors could feel him through his mirage ) 

- People who can summon / create some help like clones ( on which will itachi cast the illusion ? how will he find the real enemy ? ) or summons , especially those who can work on the chakra network ( elder frogs on your sholders , or one of those little snails on your shoulder ) 

-People with huge AOE justu that cand be cast from a distance and nuke a wide area before they are even caught and then keep on nuking it for the rest of the fight . Also people that can change the landscape in the same manner like Gaara or Hashirama .

- Jin's and sharingans users clearly but it would depend on skill


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

i dont see itachi genjutsu GG any top tier. This doesnt include tskuyomi btw
Please remember he cannot just point at someone and put them in genjtusu. They need to look at his finger or his eyes. 
most top tiers can evade making such mistakes. 
I alread gave a list. Though i forgot to include gaara. so that makes about 20 people who can fight itachi without being genjutsu trolled


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> now you are making stuff up
> who said or where was it said kabuto trained to do that??
> also what makes his sensing better than the top tiers who are sensors that i mentioned go on ill wait.t.



Look back to page 3. I already made the case for sage sensing being the best type of sensing. I provided links to manga pages from which I established this. You want to argue otherwise? Fine, but make a case, preferably with manga links.


Turrin said:


> So i'm pretty sure advanced enough sensors could fight w/o their vision proficiently.



Jiraiya said they couldn't fight efficiently. Not even three at once. Sure, a good sensor will know when and where an attack is coming from. They would be able to recognize jutsu they know of. But for unknown jutsu, sensing isn't going to tell them "what" or "how" and you won't be able to counter many high level jutsu (or even low level techniques without chakra like shruiken tosses) effectively most of the time. 





Strategoob said:


> I don't think genjutsu works by little lasers of chakra. Rather, a sequence of chakra is built up in an object, and seeing this object and sequence naturally triggers reactions in the brain.
> 
> For instance, I don't think the Moons Eye Plan is telegraphing bits of chakra back and forth hundreds of thousands of miles, but that simply seeing it will cause the onlooker's brain to enter Tsukuyomi.
> 
> And if it were, then it's so fast that it doesn't really matter unless Obito expects people to stare at the moon for a few minutes before the genjutsu takes effect, in which case it's a pretty bad plan.​



But genjutsu works by infiltrating a specific sense and sending chakra through the brain. The chakra seems to just be teleporting into the brain in your example. And yes, I do think Mugen Tsukuyomi, which for the record we haven't seen, would work by telegraphing chakra. And yes, it would be very damn fast since it is powered by the Juubi. Not all genjutsu moves with equal speed. For instance, Kabuto's genjutsu during the invasion of Konoha took awhile to work on the whole stadium. On the other hand, Sharingan genjutsu has always been faster than that. But so far as I recall, the only two people who managed a Sharingan genjutsu that we know definitely only took a split second (at fairly close range) were Itachi and Madara since they did them with a glance in the middle of fighting. Speed would definitely be connected to skill and power. 


> Fact.



I can't take you seriously right now. They can't even make out what the source of the chakra is, while Minato could sense both Kurama and Naruto's (comparatively tiny) chakra. Something only the sensors in the room accomplished. And thinking further, Sasuke should recognize Kurama's chakra if that is what they were feeling. He has met Kurama and battled against it's chakras. And what's more, the villagers of Konoha were unable to sense Kurama summoned out from Kushina until Kurama was close to the village. 

What would they be sensing? Well the obvious answer is the strongest chakra around. The Juubi's chakra, which once it reached the second stage, had a chakra so great it created a second sensing orb.


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## Vice (Aug 8, 2013)

Tayuya solos.


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## Nikushimi (Aug 8, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Manga proves KB >>>>> genjutsu. Move on already. Shit, Tayuya's genjutsu is on par with the sharingan and Shikamaru broke out of that



Tayuya herself is nowhere near "on par" with any Sharingan user; making that assumption about Mugen Onsa simply because it was used effectively against Itachi and Sasuke by a perfect Sage and attributing that feat to Tayuya as well is disingenuous.

Also, to the people saying normal sensor-type shinobi can fight with their eyes closed, that doesn't work very well. The only reason Kabuto could do it is because he also had the ability to detect heat and scent, and he was probably not completely blinded because his eye coverings were translucent.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Tayuya herself is nowhere near "on par" with any Sharingan user; making that assumption about Mugen Onsa simply because it was used effectively against Itachi and Sasuke by a perfect Sage and attributing that feat to Tayuya as well is disingenuous.
> 
> Also, to the people saying normal sensor-type shinobi can fight with their eyes closed, that doesn't work very well. The only reason Kabuto could do it is because he also had the ability to detect heat and scent, and he was probably not completely blinded because his eye coverings were translucent.



i agree his statement about tayuya genjutsu is disingenuous. 

however i disagree with jiraiya statement. Muu had no trouble avoiding KCM naruto even though muu didnt see naruto with his eyes. He detected him and moved away. Also jiraiya said *"It would impossible for them to fight SO efficiently. * So yes i agree fighting blind will hinder their abilities to fight at 100% however it wont compromise a sensor so much that they would be fighting at 10% capacity. 

I agree kabuto eye covering was translucent.  

I mainly think while itachi can catch any one of the people on the list i made in my previous posts in genjutsu, his chances are quite minimal. Also jiraiya statement only talked about regular sensing.  it did not include things such as the byakugan ( neji could dodge projectiles without ever seeing them with his eyes) , or jiraiya sensing barrier or gaara sand. Or tobirama and minato being able to put their finger to the ground to sense where a target is. (not saying its effective but still ) His statement also didnt include people like shino who cant be caught in genjutsu . Catching him doesnt stop his bugs from attacking you, thats cannon. It also didnt include people like kiba who can  fight with his nose as often as with his eyes. 

Not saying if he saw itachi he will know to do this, since kishi makes him stupid . However he has the tools to be able to avoid genjutsu GG

again not saying any one of them can automatically beat itachi but there are quite a few ways around genjutsu that people fail to mention quite often


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## Nikushimi (Aug 8, 2013)

Dodging is one thing, but what Jiraiya pointed out was the fact that a sensor cannot counter attacks so efficiently without relying on their eyes.

Which sort of makes sense, if you think about chakra-sensing like a built-in GPS ability; it doesn't tell you whether your opponent is going to throw a left-hook or a right.


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## Icegaze (Aug 8, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Dodging is one thing, but what Jiraiya pointed out was the fact that a sensor cannot counter attacks so efficiently without relying on their eyes.
> 
> Which sort of makes sense, if you think about chakra-sensing like a built-in GPS ability; it doesn't tell you whether your opponent is going to throw a left-hook or a right.



i agree !! good thing we see eye to eye on this at least 
so like i said no sensor would be at 100% but i doubt they would drop to 10% capacity if they only rely on chakra sensing 
which btw would let them know if ninjutsu is about to be used or if taijutsu is
with ninjutsu-chakra build up 
with taijutsu-same chakra that the sensor would have been sensing since the start of the fight


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I can't take you seriously right now. They can't even make out what the source of the chakra is, while Minato could sense both Kurama and Naruto's (comparatively tiny) chakra



You should take me seriously because I'm right and you're wrong. Orochimaru implied that both he and Sasuke knew the source was Naruto, and the others weren't familiar with Naruto. 

Therefore, them not recognizing Naruto's chakra isn't surprising at all, even though they clearly felt it. The huge chakra is mixed, and is just as identifiable to Naruto as it is Kurama.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> What would they be sensing? Well the obvious answer is the strongest chakra around.



No, the obvious answer to them suddenly sensing something isn't the chakra that had been around, but the one that had just been activated and was the subject of the chapter.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> But genjutsu works by infiltrating a specific sense and sending chakra through the brain.



Nothing is said about foreign chakra infiltration. All that's said about genjutsu is that it controls the chakra in an opponent's brain by using their five senses. Nothing more. Speed is limited only by the senses.

There is travel, but only in the medium. In sound genjutsu, the medium is sound waves. In visual genjutsu, the medium is _light_. This fulfills the definition given to us perfectly.

When the body perceives these special mediums―a chord in a duet, a projection on the moon―that triggers a shift in consciousness by manipulating the chakra in the brain linked to those senses. 

That, to me, is infinitely more reasonable than the moon micromanaging the trillions of synaptic gaps of millions of people with little lasers of chakra over hundreds of thousands of miles.​


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## Veracity (Aug 8, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Madara affinity is obviously not genjutsu, him and Sasuke seem to have the same affinity towards ninjutsu and skill in genjutsu. When Madara did genjutsu on the Raikage it did the same effect as Sasuke's genjutsu did on Killer Bee. Itachi use illusions where you can not tell if you are inside it or not. If you ever seen the movie Inception then you would be hard pressed not to notice Itachi's genjutsu have the same effect as people not knowing the difference between reality and illusion.
> 
> 
> Excellent post! People do not understand that Itachi is not a regular ninja when it comes to genjutsu, he has been the only one in the manga that have shown skill to catch people in genjutsu without them even knowing. If you do not know you are in a genjutsu then how can you break it? Not only that but he has an Inception quality to his genjutsu, he can keep people subjugated without moving to kill. No top tier ninja have shown anything to counter any of that and the fact is I doubt anyone will have experience to deal with it as he have been shown to be the best. Even AO didn't think about anyone else in the history of ninja that can have genjutsu so good that even sensors can not tell and control many ninja from outside of range. That should tell you that Itachi is on another level and his genjutsu is pretty much gg.. it's not simple to counter his genjutsu at all because he is the master.



That's all nice and cool I guess. But regarding only Genjustu(obviously Hashi would destroy Itachi with 0 effort.  I honestly think He can break out and or avoid Genjustu. He's implied by Kishi to he top tier in literally every aspect. Kishi even gives him abilities that make no sense(suppression of tailed beasts and rapid regen) He is the God of Shinobi and created the ninja world
Itself. It's almost guaranteed that he can break out of Genjustu, even if it's from the Genjustu master.


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob;48101203[Orochimaru[COLOR="Red" said:
			
		

> implied[/COLOR] that both he and Sasuke knew the source was Naruto, and the others weren't familiar with Naruto.



Again, this is not an argument to be taken seriously. I have read that page over and over and never, not even once, did I, or anyone else who ever read the manga ever make any reference to Naruto. None. Nada. Zilch. You are inventing the implication out of thin air. 

Orochimaru's observations of the chakra and of Sasuke's reactions don't touch on the source of the chakra. Only that Orochimaru was able to determine what it was, and it troubled Sasuke. The Juubi fits the bill for both those points entirely. Kurama, on the other hand, has never been detected from such a distance. Or else the villagers of Konoha would have been immediately aware when Obito forced Kurama out of Kushina. 





> Nothing is said about foreign chakra infiltration. All that's said about genjutsu is that it controls the chakra in an opponent's brain by using their five senses. Nothing more. Speed is limited only by the senses.



You cannot control the chakra in someone's brains without your own chakra being there. Your chakra has to actually be present where you are producing a chakra based effect. Otherwise, you wouldn't be able to control the illusion going on inside their head. 


> There is travel, but only in the medium. In sound genjutsu, the medium is sound waves. In visual genjutsu, the medium is _light_. This fulfills the definition given to us perfectly.
> 
> When the body perceives these special mediums―a chord in a duet, a projection on the moon―that triggers a shift in consciousness by manipulating the chakra in the brain linked to those senses.



You see, you have something here. But not like you think. The chakra has to reside in the brain. So maybe your point should be that the chakra is moving with the speed of light. Of course, the eyes don't actually register the movement of light with the speed of light, so there would still be a delay.


> That, to me, is infinitely more reasonable than the moon micromanaging the trillions of synaptic gaps of millions of people with little lasers of chakra over hundreds of thousands of miles.



There is nothing reasonable about Mugen Tsukuyomi based on what we have experienced with genjutsu before. Since when could you make a random inanimate object you have no contact with a focal point for visual genjutsu?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 8, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> so would you say using KB isnt a valid counter?


no.

KB is circumstantial. It requires you to outsmart/outmanuver your opponent.

In that line of thinking KB counters *everything.*



> you know sensors like tobirama can close their eyes and fight just fine like kabuto did.



no....


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> [Therefore, them not recognizing Naruto's chakra isn't surprising at all, even though they clearly felt it. The huge chakra is mixed, and is just as identifiable to Naruto as it is Kurama



You have to joking. Shi is a sensor. Of course he can feel Naruto's chakra. Plus he is right there and can see that the source of the chakra is Naruto, but he corrected it as Kurama's because he realized that it wasn't Naruto's chakra. 


> No, the obvious answer to them suddenly sensing something isn't the chakra that had been around, but the one that had just been activated and was the subject of the chapter.



We hadn't seen Sasuke and co for a good long while so there is no reason to suppose they were reacting to Kurama's chakra based purely on the coincidence of the chapter. Sasuke and co have been moving to Konoha for about 25 chapters. During that time, not only was Naruto using Kurama's chakra extensively, Kurama himself came out for an extended duration. So Naruto's chakra would not have been a new sensation. On the other hand, Gedo Mazo had a much smaller chakra and the first stage of the Juubi was apparently undetectable to sensing, which is why it was such a huge surprise when it suddenly created another sensing orb (presumably because Madara and Obito were no longer containing it's consciousness fully anymore) only a few chapters before the one where Sasuke and Orochimaru were commenting upon the obviously enormous chakra (to be felt from that distance).


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> You are inventing the implication out of thin air.



Look at the context. Naruto activated the mode one page prior and that the focus shifted right back to him after it was noted that Orochimaru's group felt his chakra.

Your opinion is that Orochimaru and the group randomly felt the Jūbi's chakra at that point even though it had been around for awhile, and not the mode Naruto _just_ activated. Seriously.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Orochimaru's observations of the chakra and of Sasuke's reactions don't touch on the source of the chakra.



Non-sensors can sense it. Minato is not a sensor, which is why he didn't recognize Obito's chakra mixed with Zetsu during their fight, or felt Obito kill all those ANBU guarding him.

Yet you believe that Minato, from miles away, felt Naruto's relatively small chakra mixed along with Kurama instead of accepting the evidence that _everybody_ could feel the mixed chakra.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> So maybe your point should be that the chakra is moving with the speed of light.



I maintain that a genjutsu user's chakra isn't travelling into an enemy's brain. A stimuli is being created with the chakra that has a causal effect. That is the most sensible conclusion.

Obito's plan is to project the image of his eye casting Tsukuyomi on the moon. Again, that's stimuli-based and implies a causal relationship rather than a direct interaction between individuals.

When a Sharingan user uses genjutsu, he charges his eye with chakra that creates a temporarily dangerous image that, if seen, triggers hallucinations that the caster conceived prior to casting.

Similarly, your argument about influence can't be dead-on given Itachi's Tsukuyomi. Unless his mind moves fast enough to think through 72 hours within an instant, then it's _causal_ control. 

Or alternatively, he sends in a laser of chakra and then expertly manipulates 72 hours of symphionic hallucinations by tinkering with the nuerons in a single instant. I wank Itachi too, but _come on_.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> Are you serious? Look at the context. Naruto activated the mode one page prior and that the focus shifted right back to him after it was noted that Orochimaru's group felt his chakra.
> 
> No, you're right. Orochimaru and the group must have just randomly felt the Jūbi's chakra at that point even though it had been around for awhile, and not the mode Naruto _just_ activated. Seriously.​



I accidentally cut out a portion of my response and posted it a couple posts above this one of yours. I addressed this point. 


> You can be in denial, but non-sensors can sense it. Minato is not a sensor, which is why he didn't recognize Obito's "tiny" chakra mixed with Zetsu, or felt Obito kill all those ANBU right behind him.
> 
> Yet you believe that Minato felt, from miles away, Naruto's relatively small chakra along with Kurama instead of accepting the evidence that _everybody_ could feel the mixed chakra.​



Lol, Tobirama didn't even feel the chakras until he paid attention. He didn't even feel Hasharima's power in Orochimaru. It's been pointed out by posters many times over, sensors don't sense if they aren't paying attention to such things. Minato was concentrated on his emotional conversation with Kushina at the time of Obito's premise. 

There is no evidence for your position other than than a force interpretation of Orochimaru and Sasuke reacting to an unnamed chakra, ignoring that Kurama's chakra had never been felt by them before, has never been felt from such a distance before, and passing off the feats of a sensor who could visually see that the source of the chakra was Naruto but it wasn't his chakra as the feats of anyone. You are making up your case from top to bottom. 


> This is another false premise. Imo.​



How are the exact goings on in the illusion controlled by the caster if their chakra is not present in the brain? How can a Kai work to escape an illusion and how can a caster overpower a Kai as Itachi did with Naruto? How does the caster communicate within genjutsu as Itachi and Sasuke did if it is all hallucinations made ahead of time? No, your explanation is not an explanation at all. It explains nothing about genjutsu. 


> I maintain that a genjutsu user's chakra isn't travelling into an enemy's brain. A stimuli is being created with the chakra that has a casual effect. That is the most sensible conclusion.​



"False premise", "I maintain", "most sensible".

All adds up to "I just happen to think this". There is no reason to it. You just don't like the idea of genjutsu telegraphing. But the notion that you can control the chakra in someone's brain based on chakra that is not in any contact with them is far more offensive to basic reasoning, since it erases any real reason why genjutsu needs to be medium based. 


> It's a projection jutsu that puts Obito's eye on the moon. So again, it's 100% stimuli based.​



...And I say again, when has there ever been any genjutsu like this? Ever? 

It's completely away from what we have seen from genjutsu thus far so the mass telegraphing is no less "sensible" .


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> It's completely away from what we have seen from genjutsu thus far so the mass telegraphing is no less "sensible" .



How is Obito micromanaging the planet for every step of their illusion with his own chakra no less sensible than him charging a stimuli that triggers those effects naturally in a chakra system?

Or Itachi micromanaging 72 hours in an instant? Or just the concept of anybody micromanaging their chakra remotely in an enemy's brain like a surgeon? That puts puppet string to absolute shame.

"Less sensible" was me being nice. It's wrong.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> Kurama's chakra has never been felt from such a distance before



We don't know how far away they were, nor do we know how far away Obito was when he released Kurama way back when, and we know that Kurama's chakra can be felt by non-sensors.​


SubtleObscurantist said:


> and passing off the feats of a sensor who could visually see that the source of the chakra was Naruto



Everybody could feel the chakra, and C identified it as Naruto's chakra. Feeling is what makes a sensor a sensor. Similarly, you said Orochimaru "worked out" the source.

And why couldn't Minato, of all people, have done likewise? I'm sure if Suigetsu sealed Kurama in Naruto earlier then he would have put two and two together when feeling the chakra too.

Regardless, I found your argument about Minato never trying to use his alleged sensory technique to identify the masked man pretty funny. Obito should have added that to last chapter's trash-talking.​


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## SubtleObscurantist (Aug 8, 2013)

Strategoob said:


> How is Obito micromanaging the planet for every step of their illusion with his own chakra no less sensible than him charging a stimuli that triggers those effects naturally in a chakra system?
> 
> Or Itachi micromanaging 72 hours in an instant? Or just the concept of anybody micromanaging their chakra remotely in an enemy's brain like a surgeon? That puts puppet string to absolute shame.
> 
> "Less sensible" was me being nice. It's wrong.​



"Charging a stimuli"...which he has no contact with....genjutsu never been done that way. Yeah, ok, sure, that's sensible. 

And ok, "I don't buy it" meaning "it's wrong". I will keep that in mind the next time you want to wank Itachi, since apparently this (non) logic can be applied, by your own admission, to Itachi. 

The hallucinations are not prearranged. We know this for a fact because communication occurs.


> We don't know how far away they were, nor do we know how far away Obito was when he released Kurama way back when, and we know that Kurama's chakra can be felt by non-sensors.​



Not exactly how far, but we know that Obito and Naruto were in another country. And one has to assume that Kurama was released within fire country. I mean, unless we have any reason at all to think otherwise.


> Everybody could feel the chakra, and C identified it as Naruto's chakra.



...

Yes, he felt a massive chakra coming from Naruto, who he could visibly see, and then realized it was Kurama's and not Naruto's. The fact he was able to make the distinction is because Shi is a sensor. Just like Minato. 


> Feeling is what makes a sensor a sensor. Similarly, you said Orochimaru "worked out" the source.



I said that he worked out that the source was the Juubi...not Kurama. 


> Regardless, I found your argument about Minato never trying to use his alleged sensory technique to identify the masked man pretty funny. Obito should have added that to last chapter's trash-talking



Would that have helped? Kurama never sensed that Obito wasn't Madara. His body was half Zetsu and his chakras had mixed to the point he had the chakras of a Rikudo. And by the way, you are only supporting my point. While there are reasons why Obito's chakra might not be recognizable even after time, only a sensor should be able to recognize Naruto's chakra so distinctly when the last time he would have seen Naruto is as a baby.


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## ImSerious (Aug 8, 2013)

the manga made it perfectly clear minato is immune to genjutsu.


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## Almondsand (Aug 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> That's all nice and cool I guess. But regarding only Genjustu(obviously Hashi would destroy Itachi with 0 effort.  I honestly think He can break out and or avoid Genjustu. He's implied by Kishi to he top tier in literally every aspect. Kishi even gives him abilities that make no sense(suppression of tailed beasts and rapid regen) He is the God of Shinobi and created the ninja world
> Itself. It's almost guaranteed that he can break out of Genjustu, even if it's from the Genjustu master.


Hashirama have not been shown to having any battles with a master of genjutsu such as Itachi. People with a strong affinity towards genjutsu is very much looked upon with greatness. Shisui with the strongest manipulation genjutsu eyes were destroyed because of how great and damaging the power had the potential to be. Not everything have to be brute strength, power-overcharge chakra busting techniques to be effective and powerful. 

Hashirama did not create the ninja world itself, he created the political system with the help of Uchiha Madara and Senju Tobirama. Read the manga..



ImSerious said:


> the manga made it perfectly clear minato is immune to genjutsu.



Scans?


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## Octavian (Aug 8, 2013)

this just in. kishi's reaction to the debate regarding the mechanics of genjutsu:


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## Doctor Lamperouge (Aug 8, 2013)

Genjutsus aren't automatic, they have to be casted, and its difficult to cast a jutsu on something you're having a hard time even tracking or keeping up with. So speed, if the gap is large enough, is a good counter against genjutsu. Also, people forget that when Tsukiyomi is used the Sharingan tomoes converge to form the Mangekyo (Itachi normally doesn't keep his MS constantly active, so he would only bring it out when using Tsukiyomi or Amaterasu). Since eye contact would be a given, a fast enough individual with knowledge whose paying attention could detect the change, and if they're fast enough they can break eye contact before Tsukiyomi is casted. 

Also, clones would be a good counter, since even if the clone is caught in genjutsu the original is not affected. 

Finally, there is of course the perfect jinchuuriki partner method.


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## ImSerious (Aug 8, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Scans?



n another country

Here you go. It's called Naruto.



Octavian said:


> this just in. kishi's reaction to the debate regarding the mechanics of genjutsu:


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## Sadgoob (Aug 8, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> I will keep that in mind the next time you want to wank Itachi



I find this incredibly insulting. I've never wanked Itachi!  

Reported for libel.


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## Veracity (Aug 8, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Hashirama have not been shown to having any battles with a master of genjutsu such as Itachi. People with a strong affinity towards genjutsu is very much looked upon with greatness. Shisui with the strongest manipulation genjutsu eyes were destroyed because of how great and damaging the power had the potential to be. Not everything have to be brute strength, power-overcharge chakra busting techniques to be effective and powerful.
> 
> Hashirama did not create the ninja world itself, he created the political system with the help of Uchiha Madara and Senju Tobirama. Read the manga..
> 
> ...



Your honestly interpreting me in the wrong manner. Hashirama doesn't necessarily have to fight an excellent Genjustu user to be able to counter one. He's hyped up to be the "God of Shinobi." Meaning no matter how hax Itachis Genjustu is, Kishi won't allow for one of his strongest characters to be beat in such a pitiful manner. Itachi barely makes top 10(just maybe) for strongest characters, while it's already a general consensus that Hashirama is either 2 or 3 in the list.

People with immense brute strentgh are looked upon as the strongest characters in Naruto. Just look at at all the very top tiers(Obito-Hashirama-Madara-Naruto-Nagato) Any Genjustu users? Nope. Just brute strentgh, insane destructive capability, and a large scale of attack. 

The problem with Genjustu implied with Hashirama is that you have to trap him in said Justu before it actually takes effect, which seems like a possible feat, but realistically(according to manga and Kishi) it's never going to happen. Hashirama is just going or pull something out his ass, avoid all sense contact, or have some sort of immunity towards Genjustu. I mean, why would he not? He's literally top tier in 90% of all categories. Senju stamina, Tsunade regen, PS busting attacks, BD tanking durabilty, outpacing BD speed, town-scaled attacks, Perfect Sage, proficient Genjustu, and was even known to be top notch in taijustu. Yeah he's the God of Shinobi.

Realistically speaking, Itachi should be able to trap Hashirmama in a Genjustu, but according to the consistency of the Manga. Hashirama is going to babyshake the hell out of Itachi with little to no effort. It's pretty much a fact now. Same way, realistically, Minato should be able to solo a large majority of the Naruto world. Buttttt that's not happening in this Manga. People like Madara and Hashirama are far above him. 

& I do read the manga you asshole. Hashirama helped create the first Great Ninja Village. Basically, he created the first important ninja establishment.


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2013)

SubtleObscurantist said:


> Jiraiya said they couldn't fight efficiently. Not even three at once. Sure, a good sensor will know when and where an attack is coming from. They would be able to recognize jutsu they know of. But for unknown jutsu, sensing isn't going to tell them "what" or "how" and you won't be able to counter many high level jutsu (or even low level techniques without chakra like shruiken tosses) effectively most of the time.


Jiraiya was talking about their ability to coordinate so perfectly with each other, even as Sensors they would not be able to fight as such an efficient team. He could not have been referring to an inability of sensors to fight blind, since we've seen that from Kabuto. 

But again a sensor does not need to fight blind anyway to combat Sharigan Genjutsu, that's a fallacy. All they need is the ability to sense when an Uchiha gather's chakra to their dojutsu, than they can avoid eye contact, block LOS, etc... in that moment.

As for techniques w/o chakra an advance enough sensor, can sense things w/o chakra. We see Kabuto sense Sasuke's Ksunagi Sword attacks many times. Here's just one example:
and gored him.

We also see Karin sense physical objects here:
and gored him.


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## Dr. White (Aug 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> lolwat? Hebi Sauce countered all of Itachi's regular illusions and broke Tsukuyomi as well, Genjutsu is ineffective against someone who can see through it



You mean Itachi let Sasuke break everything against him within reason, per manga canon?


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## Turrin (Aug 8, 2013)

Something I'd like to add to the Minato is a sensor convo, is I don't understand how he could pull of the same chakra transfer ability as Naruto w/o chakra sensing abilities:

kura: and naruto really had grown skilfully, as *he is able to feel the chakra of several different ninjas* and change mine in order to make it match with theirs…\\
kura: well… I can give my chakra to anyone by using naruto as an intermediary myself \\
kura: minato… this is the same as what you did when you gave and put your own chakra into naruto\\

I mean how else would Minato know each person's chakra type and be able to match his to theirs to perform the chakra transfer ability?

Also to be perfectly honest the only way being able to use FTG like Minato does makes sense, is if he's a chakra sensor. I mean first off all Minato scatters dozens of FTG Kunai & some times he doesn't even scatter them himself, yet he always seems to be aware of their exact locations. On top of that he seems to be aware of exactly what is around a FTG mark even when the FTG marker is not within his line of sight. The most ridiculous example of this is when Minato teleports Kurama's Bijuu Bomb away from the village:
Minato know each person's chakra type and be able to match his to theirs 

In that instance he not only knows exactly where all of his FTG markers even ones that are miles away, but also is able to tell exactly what's around them, allowing him to pick the safest one to teleport the Bijuu Bomb to.

I mean granted this could all just be plot-holes caused by oversights on Kishi part, but when combined with Minato's feat in Gaiden and his feat of being aware of Kurama's + Naruto's chakra and the fact that they are working together in ch 620, there is a really strong case to be made for Minato being a sensor.


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## Icegaze (Aug 9, 2013)

minato is a sensor this has already been confirmed Turrin is someone saying he isnt??
thats just  
there are different levels and different types of sensors. Not saying he is tobirama level sensor but he surely isnt fodder level sensor 
also like you said how else does he know whats happening around his FTG mark


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## LostSelf (Aug 9, 2013)

Sharingan genjutsu went down even more after the Madara vs Kages fight. Apparently, just because Madara restrained Ei to cast genjutsu on him makes the other kages inmune or extremely hard to be put in, to the point of being restrained. Ignoring Chiyo's hype, and Oro/Danzo falling for genjutsu. At best this claim would be valid with Ei, not all Kage level opponents. And Gai/Minato. Speedesters that are hard to keep up with, thus being hard to make eye contact and cast the genjutsu in time.

Sensors, like Nagato could effectively counter it as they do not need to use their eyes, feel the build of chakra in the uchihas, or Nagato can use linked vision/Rain sensing jutsu.

Kabuto, for obvious reasons.

And that's all i can come up now.


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## Almondsand (Aug 10, 2013)

ImSerious said:


> intercept Sasuke's dash
> 
> Here you go. It's called Naruto.


Nothing was said throughout the whole manga that Minato can counter genjutsu, you need to read the manga, not just look at the pictures. If you have trouble understanding, then my advice for you is to tune in to Sesame street and buy a volume of hook up phonics audio tape. 


LostSelf said:


> Sharingan genjutsu went down even more after the Madara vs Kages fight. Apparently, just because Madara restrained Ei to cast genjutsu on him makes the other kages inmune or extremely hard to be put in, to the point of being restrained. Ignoring Chiyo's hype, and Oro/Danzo falling for genjutsu. At best this claim would be valid with Ei, not all Kage level opponents. And Gai/Minato. Speedesters that are hard to keep up with, thus being hard to make eye contact and cast the genjutsu in time.
> 
> Sensors, like Nagato could effectively counter it as they do not need to use their eyes, feel the build of chakra in the uchihas, or Nagato can use linked vision/Rain sensing jutsu.
> 
> ...



Sharingan genjutsu went down because Madara and Sasuke are not masters at it.


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## Rocky (Aug 10, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Sharingan genjutsu went down because Madara and Sasuke are not masters at it.



Madara can casually control the Nine Tailed Fox. He's a master.


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## ImSerious (Aug 10, 2013)

Almondsand said:


> Nothing was said throughout the whole manga that Minato can counter genjutsu, you need to read the manga, not just look at the pictures. If you have trouble understanding, then my advice for you is to tune in to Sesame street and buy a volume of hook up phonics audio tape.



That's cute but Minato is still immune to genjutsu. Deal with it.


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## Bonly Jr. (Aug 10, 2013)

Current Minato is a perfect Jin.

Lawl.


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## Blaze Release (Aug 12, 2013)

Interesting how people claim Minato is a sensor, yet all of his so called sensing feats can be explained rather easily, but also to date all the sensors in the series have been stated in the manga to be sensors, yet the statement of minato being one has yet to be seen. Appears to be another attempt to increase a characters power, no different to the sennin modo that recently has been refuted though that was clear a couple of chapter ago.

It seems people confuse sensors or sensing with:


Trackers.
High tier shinobi's with extreme awareness of their surroundings
Shinobi's that have a form of sensing/tracking ability which may come in way of:
Doujutsu
Kekkai
Tomegane
Kikaichū
Suna no Kanchi
ETC.

I am not however going into that topic. I am here more genjutsu, or should i say the argument that speed is a counter to genjutsu.

This argument falls flat on its face because by genjutsu i am not sure that because majority of genjutsu have been dojutsu based majority by default think this way or they have embedded in their minds their Itachi vs Minato argument.
Sound genjutsu, in the form of gamarinsho or mugen onsa laughs at this so called counter from the start. 

It appears however that when people usually use this argument its usually against visual based, but there is still something wrong. The first is that the sharingan was able to keep up with EI's v1 raiton no yoroi and Bee in his first stage jinchrucki form. This allowed Sasuke to evade both of them. If the sharingan can keep track of these shinobi's, dojutsu based illusions will work on them. Its only in v2 raiton no yoroi it elude the sharingan.

But ask yourself how many shinobi's have the equal or greater foot speed as v2 Ei. The only Shinobi's are current obito and Naruto. Foot speed wise, the likes of Minato, Bee, Tobirama are at best roughly equal if not inferior to V1 EI.

Bee claimed nobody but his brother has managed to deflect his number 8 and this is hype being given to his speed in this form, yet the sharingan could read it and allow sasuke to overcome it.  [1, 2, 3, 4]

In this same form with this same speed, we know for a fact that the sharingan managed to keep up and allow sasuke to evade it. But at the same time with this same speed and form sasuke managed to catch Bee in an illusion [1, 2].

We also know for a fact that sharingan based illusion requires no handseal 



Its execution is more or less instant and Itachi managed to catch Bee 

[1].

Genjutsu offers many variations, the one's used in battle mostly are kanashibari based illusions and the generic illusion which aims to deceive the opponent.

The generic genjutsu is actually a counter to speed or any form of movement and we have seen this. When Itachi's clone met Naruto an illusion on naruto. However we know for a fact that once an illusion has been executed any form of movement that the victim experiences is all a deception, with the victim in real life not moving an inch. 


Itachi's genjutsu was executed on this page. The middle of the page where Itachi raises his hand and points, note that at the top of the page the team kakashi were all standing together.
[1]


We see naruto charge with a ransengan [1, 2]


It is then confirmed here that, the illusion was executed when itahci pointed his finger [1, 2].

Simply Meaning everything after that was an illusion including naruto charging in wit the ranengan. We know that for a fact naruto has never moved from his initial point which was besides Chiyo and Sakura and that is where he still was when they broke him free from the illusion. [1, 2]

That is one form of how genjutsu is actually a counter to speed or any form of movement, through deception where any movement experienced are illusions and in reality you are standing at the exact same spot.


The other form being a kanashibari based illusion, where you completely paralyze your opponent and restrict movement. We have the sound based form in mugen onsa an gamarinsho. Visual based form with Magen Kasegui or other visual based, examples are sasuke paralysis Shee and Madara paralyzing EI.

Which brings me to another topic concerning what madara did to EI. Many claim he had to hold EI down in order to execute the illusion as EI is too fast. That is one way of translating it. The other way is that sharingan based illusion are short range. There he had close the gap and bring EI within range to order to invoke the illusion and if infact you look closely it appears madara is leaning forward to further come within range [1]. While i do get the argument that he needed to restrict EI as in v2 his speed is creates a form of visual based counter, i believe what madara did was to get him within range of the illusion more than anything.

Anyway the whole speed is a counter to genjutsu hardly holds when we bring in sound based illusion. Even when we restrict this argument to visual based, not many people have the same speed as v2 raiton EI. Also no shinobi is constantly moving, its usually v1 raiton no yorai for EI and minato never constantly teleports nonstop.

*Finally  genjutsu offers two distinct ways of overcoming any form of movement. Either through deception where any form of movement experienced is an illusion and in reality the opponent is stationary or the ability to paralyze your opponent and strip them of any form of movement*



Bonly Jr. said:


> @Blaze
> 
> Current Onoki is as fast as Ay? Yo?



haha, typo. Meant Obito


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## Bonly Jr. (Aug 12, 2013)

@Blaze

Current Onoki is as fast as Ay? Yo?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi's Genjutsu is definitely underrated by a lot of people.
> 
> However...
> 
> ...



Add Kurenai to that list.  DB says she's Itachi level.

Orochimaru was also trying to break out, but got his hand cut off.  He probably could have broken it if he Itachi had a less hands off approach.

So you can make a case for most tier 5's being able to deal with it.


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## Bonly Jr. (Aug 12, 2013)

Lol, Kurenai isn't Itachi's level in Gen for shit,


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## Elite Uchiha (Aug 12, 2013)

Kurenai isnt even really Jounin level for shit


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## Complete_Ownage (Aug 12, 2013)

No one is immune to any forms of genjutsu however a few shinobi possess unique abilties that grant landing said genjutsu harder then normal if not impossible

We know many counters to genjutsu such as:
Partner method 
Jin Control
Speed
Sensing
KB
Chakra control to break free
Avoiding Eye contact(Gai)...however this is limited to ocular genjutsu

Even if a shinobi is caught in a genjutsu does not automatically equall them being victories which ALOT of pople seem to think. Nearly all the variations of genjutsu is used to create openings or delusions to throw the opponent off guard. However Itachis Tsukuyomi and Ma & Pas "Frog Song" are extremly unique and obviously way more difficult to deal with.

However Tsukuyomi has been resisted by both Kakashi and Sasuke in part one. In part two Danzo recognized Tsukuyomi so he must have seen it first hand. Granted all three of these people have sharingan and thats an argument on its self

Basically no genjutsu is an instant win besides the possibility of Tsukuyomi since it's unique and breaks down the opponents will power to say. Itachi would still have to add the finishing touches. But yes, getting hit with Tsukuyomi is more then likley going to end bad for anyone. To anyone that says GG genjutsu should simply be ingnored


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