# Hashirama vs V2 Raikage



## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Location : battle of the three sannins
Knowledge : manga 
Distance : 5m

Raikage starts in V2 lightning armour state .


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## Ghost (Sep 23, 2015)

If Ei goes for a head shot he wins. I think.


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## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

Depend if Ei manage to one-shot him or not.

If he does, he win.

If not, he dies.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 23, 2015)

Considering how Edo Madara was able to treat A's speed(and Hashirama's own great feats) I have my doubts about blitz working. Hashirama should be capable of at least partially reacting and doing something to lessen the damage. After that it is his regen+Mokuton. And that's gg.


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## Mercurial (Sep 23, 2015)

Edo Madara (speed and reactions and CQC seemingly on par with Hashirama's) could casually react to V2 Ei's speed and parry him while he was already distracted and busy at dodging the Mizukage's ninjutsu. So Hashirama doesn't have any problem in reacting to Ei and block or lessen his hit with Mokuton and then fodderstomp him.


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

hashirama trolls hard

without trying 

restrict hashirama to not fighting back or he wins


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## J★J♥ (Sep 23, 2015)

A blitzing Hashirama ?


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## Kai (Sep 23, 2015)

A will get a hit in off his initial blitz, but his show ends there. Hashirama regenerates without seals and uses Mokubunshin substitutes to get in position and ends A with any one of his devastating offenses.

Hashirama low difficulty. Madara said the Five Kage would be child's play for Hashirama.


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2015)

A trashes Hashirama in 1 second. There is no way in hell is Hashirama reacting to V2 A from 5m.
and no, Madara reacting to V1 A, does not proof Hashirama can do that to V2 A. 

Hashirama couldn't even dodge the 6 black rods Madara putted in his back, so much for being as fast as Edo Madara.


> Hashirama regenerates without seals



Hashirama will regenerate his face?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

The distance between Edo Madara and V1 Raikage was about 25-30m , Hashirama has nearly the same speed of Madara , if we add that there is only 5m between both of them , then V2 Raikage strikes , Hashirama can't regenerate his brain .


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## Trojan (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> The distance between Edo Madara and V1 Raikage was about 25-30m , Hashirama has nearly the same speed of Madara , if we add that there is only 5m between both of them , then V2 Raikage strikes , Hashirama can't regenerate his brain .



The funny part is people still think that V2 A. 

and it's even more hilarious to think Hashirama can react. 

Kishi shows and state that A is one of the fastest characters, and made a point that only Minato and
Narudo can dodge him.

and then shows that base Minato's shunshin left the rest of the Hokages in the dust by a huge deal, but all of a sudden Hashirama will get faster and react to V2 A's speed? 

then what was the point Kishi was trying to portrayed/show?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

I agree , it's not a coincidance that Kishi make a huge distance between Madara and make him react to V1 version not V2 .


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## Ghoztly (Sep 23, 2015)

Hashirama stomps him through the ground, then grows some trees over his corpse.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 23, 2015)

What is the point of this match?


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

not sure  blackguyinpinksuit

someone hates A thoroughly 

A punches madara, yet madara hand can resist his blow

even if hashirama takes a direct blow to the face he will chuckle get up then violate. 

thats as good as it gets for A, he gets to claim he hit a god


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## Nikushimi (Sep 23, 2015)

...An unrestricted Hashirama versus the Raikage--a guy who was helpless against Madara, even with backup from four other Kage?

Hashirama damage soaks his best punch with medical Ninjutsu on par with Tsunade's, then rapes with chakra-sucking Mokuton spamming across the battlefield.


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## Amol (Sep 23, 2015)

If Hashirama have regeneration as good as Tsunade then he wins.
Hashirama only needs to react partially which he should be able to do.
As long as he avoids getting hit in the head he will survive the attack.
Raikage needs a clean hit on head at very first second to have any kind of hope at victory.
I sincerely doubts that Hashirama would allow that .
So yeah Hashirama wins.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Considering how Edo Madara was able to treat A's speed(and Hashirama's own great feats) I have my doubts about blitz working. Hashirama should be capable of at least partially reacting and doing something to lessen the damage. After that it is his regen+Mokuton. And that's gg.



I'm going with this.
5 meters is pretty extreme but I think unless Hashirama is totally unexpecting it, I don't think A can just blitz one shot Hashirama. Hashirama is a sensor so he should be able to sense that A is charging up bijuu levels of chakra and get his guard up in time.

Hashirama should have comparable reactions and speed to Madara and that means he should be able to react to A, and sprout mokuton to stop his advance or perhaps pull a mokuton clone feint or some shit before he gets his head torn off.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Grimmjow said:
			
		

> Hashirama should have comparable reactions and speed to Madara and that means he should be able to react to A, and sprout mokuton to stop his advance or perhaps pull a mokuton clone feint or some shit before he gets his head torn off.


I doubt Hashirama could use hand seals at such a distance against V2 Raikage (Madara reacted to V1) , even Minato didn't have the time to do so .


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## Icegaze (Sep 23, 2015)

I once recall a madara vs hashirama thread was locked by the mod yet this hasn't been


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 23, 2015)

Against Sasuke's Susano'o, Danzo sprouted mokuton only because he didn't have time to form handseals. I'm pretty sure Hashirama can do a similar thing, considering he is the better mokuton user.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

I think it's a valid argument , so yeah maybe Hashirama can avoid him using that kind of method .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

Is this a joke?

Edo Madara could react to V2 Ei (and yes - it was V2, there were lots of debates about that and it realy was V2). Alive Madara, who is on par with hashirama in terms of speed, was faster than Edo Madara.

Alive Hashirama completely trolls him. If he activates his Sage Mode, he can most likely speedblitz V2 Ei by himself.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

You are the only one to think that , did you forget your own thread ?


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## Bonly (Sep 23, 2015)

Hashi is gonna end up ragdolling A, none of the previous Gokage members alone is gonna beat Hashi, best A can do is get in a good few hits before he dies upon which Hashi is gonna regen from so yeah


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## Hachibi (Sep 23, 2015)

When I think about it, yeah Ei die.

At least he would get the honor of touching the God of Shinobi.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> You are the only one to think that , did you forget your own thread ?



Nope. The thing is - i dont remember myself being refuted in that thread. And other threads about Hashirama's and Madara's speed.

Edo Madara could block V2 Ei's punch point blank. Alive Madara is faster and he is alive Hashirama's equal in terms of speed and Shunshin. 

SM RT Madara, basicly alive SM Hashirama's equal as far as speed goes, dodged a strike from someone who could react to Juubito and mark him (Edo Tobirama). Ei, even in his V2, doesnt have feats of that caliber. And considering Hashirama's Shunshin, equal to that of alive Madara, who trashed War Arc SM Naruto with it, being amped by Sage Mode - yeah, alive Hashirama can easily react to V2 Ei and kill him, SM Hashirama can speedblitz V2 Ei.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

I have already explained that Tobirama never reacted to Juubito's speed but to GudoDama's changing form , and you had nothing to say about it , just like did KCM Naruto . Tobirama is the guy who is worried beeing instantly killed by all-mind Juubito (not talking about bestial Juubito who never look arround him and never think to dodge) , even if he si marked while SM Naruto striked him .

Hashirama is fast for sure , but he is much slower than guys like V2 Raikage , Minato ... Maybe in SM , he can equal them without FTG .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

> I have already explained that Tobirama never reacted to Juubito's speed but to GudoDama's changing form



When you can give me a scan, where it is shown that Juubito changed Gudoudama while striking both Hashirama's clone and Tobirama, let me know. He changed Gudoudama's form during Edo Hokage's speech about his power, about him being stronger than Hashirama, and only then attacked. He moved at Tobirama, he stroke him (put up his hand as if he was striking him). Yet Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed. Seemingly, he marked him with the exact same hand which was destroyed.



> and you had nothing to say about it



LOL wat? 

Read what i wrote above, dude. 



> just like did KCM Naruto



I dont remember KCM Naruto reacting to Gudoudama's "changing form".



> Tobirama is the guy who is worried beeing instantly killed by all-mind Juubito (not talking about bestial Juubito who never look arround him and never think to dodge)



KCM Minato had a chance to mark him when Juubito counter-attacked him and teared his hand off. He could mark him. But he didnt. Maybe he couldnt mark him? That's right - he couldnt.



> even if he si marked while SM Naruto striked him .



He was afraid *after* SM Naruto stroke him.



> Hashirama is fast for sure , but he is much slower than guys like V2 Raikage , Minato ... Maybe in SM , he can equal them without FTG .



Edo Madara could react to V2 Ei, we are talking about alive Hashirama, with his full physical prowess. 

He utterly trashes Ei and in SM, he can speedblitz him, because V2 Ei has never, ever, demonstrated speed fast enough to win this fight. A guy who was faster than KCM Minato couldnt hit SM Hashirama's speed equal. 

V2 Ei gets stomped.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> I have already explained that Tobirama never reacted to Juubito's speed but to GudoDama's changing form , and you had nothing to say about it , just like did KCM Naruto . Tobirama is the guy who is worried beeing instantly killed by all-mind Juubito (not talking about bestial Juubito who never look arround him and never think to dodge) , even if he si marked while SM Naruto striked him .
> 
> Hashirama is fast for sure , but he is much slower than guys like V2 Raikage , Minato ... Maybe in SM , he can equal them without FTG .



By the way - have you seen the scans i provided above?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> I dont remember KCM Naruto reacting to Gudoudama's "changing form".


LOOOOOL , the why are those chakra arms catching Minato and Sasuke :

*Spoiler*: __ 










> KCM Minato had a chance to mark him when Juubito counter-attacked him and teared his hand off. He could mark him. But he didnt. Maybe he couldnt mark him? That's right - he couldnt.


Full Mind Juubito's Taijutsu>>>>>>>>>>Mindless Juubito Taijutsu , the bestial Juubito don't even think to counter or look arround him :









Tobirama coul never mark the full-mind Juubito because he will be severly blited and killed in an instant , he is so much slower than he thinks Obito can hit him even if he is marked while Minato jsut lost one arm against him :




> He was afraid after SM Naruto stroke him.


Why SM stroke him ? It's obviously because he was marked , otherwise , Naruto would be instantly killed before even he think to touch him .




> Edo Madara could react to V2 Ei, we are talking about alive Hashirama, with his full physical prowess.


No it was V1 Ei ,everyone think that , you're the only exception , plus manga's feats are clear for all only you .



> He utterly trashes Ei and in SM, he can speedblitz him, because V2 Ei has never, ever, demonstrated speed fast enough to win this fight. A guy who was faster than KCM Minato couldnt hit SM Hashirama's speed equal.


Tobirama<<<<<<<<KCM Minato in speed , even while he was marked , Juubito scare him with his moves speed while KCM Minato lost just one arm in Taijutsu exhange without FTG dude . And Hashirama is even slower than Tobirama , he dosen't have a chance with classic avoiding methods , maybe he would use Danzo's Jutsu like said Grimmjow , it's a valid argument unlike your blablating nonsens .


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 23, 2015)

Madara blocked V2. It's pretty much undeniable at this point. The decisive point in this tired debate is that Ā would have never commented on the second strongest shinobi of his era being capable of blocking his V1 punch if literally *every other person* Ā has fought against has managed to react to it. And Ā never commented on any of his other adversaries, even random like Jūgo, being able to block a hit.

Far as I'm concerned, there has been no counter to that point.

So Hashirama blocks Ā here and rapes.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Is that looking like V2 ?


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 23, 2015)

I take hard logic over flimsy visual cues that are often inconsistent.

Tell me, what makes more sense: Ā praising Madara of all people for blocking V1 speed when every other person on the planet who has ever fought Ā has managed it, or Kishimoto forgetting to draw Ā's spiked hair one time?.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

No he was distracted by Mei's attack , that's why .



> Kishimoto forgetting to draw Ā's spiked hair one time?.


Not just one time but many times .

Plus anyone managed to stop V1 Raikage's Shunshin (not talking about Taijutsu moves) .


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## Itachi san88 (Sep 23, 2015)

> Edo Madara (speed and reactions and CQC seemingly on par with Hashirama's) could casually react to V2 Ei's speed and parry him while he was already distracted and busy at dodging the Mizukage's ninjutsu. So Hashirama doesn't have any problem in reacting to Ei and block or lessen his hit with Mokuton and then fodderstomp him.


I agree. Madara blocked V2. Also, the healing jutsu (the same of Tsunade) is very useful.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 23, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> No he was distracted by Mei's attack , that's why .
> 
> 
> Not just one time but many times .
> ...



He didn't say shit about Mei.

He didn't say 'he can block my speed while being distracted'. All he marveled at was Madara's ability to defend against his speed and his speed alone.

Yeah, Kishimoto being inconsistent many times? Color me surprised. Besides, Ā striking Madara head-on had hair about as spiked as Ā striking Madara's V3 Susanoo. And the latter was indisputably V2.

So yeah, you have no ground to stand on.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Against Sasuke's Susano'o, Danzo sprouted mokuton only because he didn't have time to form handseals. I'm pretty sure Hashirama can do a similar thing, considering he is the better mokuton user.


Certainly possible, considering Obito restrained BM Naruto (physically more powerful, physically faster than Ei) with a non-seal Mokuton Branch [1].


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## Ghoztly (Sep 23, 2015)

All five Kage would struggle against Hashirama, the Raikage and Hashirama are worlds apart. He would absolutely demolish him even in V2.

Low diff


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

Hashirama doesnt even have advanced dodjutsu that allows him to anticipate raikage, like madara did. So why are people trying to compare him to madara, who didnt even react to eis top speed. Ei isnt jumping this time, hes running at top speed. Hashiramas head will fly off, even in sm hashirama isnt reacting from 5 freaking meters. Wow people. Also if he goes for a lateral chop via v2, then theres no regenerating from that.

Ei sliced the 8 tails horn off, let hashirama regenerate from that.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Certainly possible, considering Obito restrained BM Naruto (physically more powerful, physically faster than Ei) with a non-seal Mokuton Branch [1].



You mean obito restrained one third of bm naruto. A shadow clone mind you. How is a shadow clone woth one third of narutos chakra the same as 100% bm naruto.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

That one third of his chakra is _far_ faster than V2 Ei.

None of identical Naruto clones are slower than him, what the hell have you been reading?

And Hashirama not being as fast/reflexive/skilled as Madara is flat out wrong. Not only has Hashirama clashed directly with EMS Living Madara in CQC equaling his speed, reflexes and ability, he outran a (real PS, Madara's, not Sasuke's bitch ass Susano) PS Clad 100% Kurama over a distance of 3 mountains, which it traveled over nigh instantly, a display of speed that transcends any speed feat from any other Kage- save Naruto.

I challenge you to say avoiding/outrunning/reacting to a PS Claded 100% Kurama over a distance of 3 mountains is anything less than a top tier speed feature.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Sep 23, 2015)

Based on nothing. Thanks for that.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

No problem, Minato (and by default hater of Hashirama: a rivaling Hokage, and lover of Ei the nemesis and closest challenger of Minato across his lifetime) fanboy.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

Madara barely blocked V1 Raikage's punch and easily countered BM Naruto's clone , so V2 Ei is faster .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

Despite being focused on a lava attack he didn't know Mei could use, Edo (not full power) Madara reacts and blocks V2 Ei's punch by looking at him at the last possible second with his fist a foot from his face and Madara's arms still at his side. 

BM Naruto, who is superior to KCM Naruto in speed and physical reflexes, was caught by a Mokuton Release inferior to Hashirama's, a shinobi shown to have equal reflexes/shunshin speed to Living Full Powered EMS Madara. 

KCM Naruto reacted and avoided V2 Ei's fastest speed. 

I can do that too, hpcaptain.


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## ARGUS (Sep 23, 2015)

Lol, hashirama mauls him 

 -- base hashirama is physically on par with madara who managed to react and physically block V2 Ays strike head on, now give hashirama the SM boost and not only does he react much faster but Ays strike won't do jack shit to him 

 -- his strike gets blocked. And then hashirama finishes him off with FTW alone


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> BM Naruto, who is superior to KCM Naruto in speed and physical reflexes, was caught by a Mokuton Release inferior to Hashirama's, a shinobi shown to have equal reflexes/shunshin speed to Living Full Powered EMS Madara.


I think Hashirama can evade him using Mokuton like did Danzo against Susano'o's arrow but he would never do it physically at such a small distance . Madara caugh BM clone who is much slower than the original .



> Edo (not full power) Madara reacts and blocks V2 Ei's punch


It was V1 , then he didn't reacted to V1 boosted by Onoki . Plus Alive Madara has Rikudo Chakra jsut as Hagoromo said witch drastically boost speed and reflexes .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

BM Humanoid (Non-avatar) Clone is much slower than the BM Humanoid (Non-avatar) Naruto? Please provide reasoning and scans to prove your assertion. 

It was full speed Ei that attacked Edo Madara.


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## Mercurial (Sep 23, 2015)

Because obviously Ei won't bother using V2 against Madara. Yeah.

Ei tried his full speed right off the bat and Madara laughed about that. Hence Ei being lightned by Onoki to become even faster.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

No point in explaining it once again, if they don't think it's V2 Ei by now they really won't ever change their opinion. I instantly knew it the first time I read the chapter, there's literally nothing that indicates that's a slower version of Ei, whether it's the first time you've read the chapter or the 100th time.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> BM Humanoid (Non-avatar) Clone is much slower than the BM Humanoid (Non-avatar) Naruto? Please provide reasoning and scans to prove your assertion.


Madara easily reacted to BM Naruto's clone while he barely blocked V1 Raikage's attack :


So , I can't say that the clone is slower than V1 because Madara was distracted by Mei's Yoton , so maybe they are both the same speed maybe they don't . At any case , there is no big difference .

BM Naruto>V2 Raikage>V1 Raikage=BM clone .



> It was full speed Ei that attacked Edo Madara.


Raikage and Mei's task was only to hold back Madara while Tsunade was healing Gaara and Onoki , there is any reason for him to go at full speed . This passage illustrate well his intentions :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Why would he dumby lost chakra by using V2 .

Then , is that V2 : 


And this :amazed :

*Spoiler*: __ 








And above of all Raikage himsel said he can raise his speed and power :


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

Let me make this simple, this is the only time I will reply to your assertion, 

He did not say
"I can up my speed" or "I better up my speed for the next attack"

He said
"I've got to up the speed"

Prior to this, he says "You can guard yourself against even *my speed*"

Where's your argument? 

He said Madara *could guard himself against his speed*, and then he said *I've got to up the speed*.

Onoki then grants him more speed a few panels after this, solving his dilemma.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

His answer and facial expression is pretty clear , you're just making absurd conclusions as always .

I have to up my speed = I can up my speed , his speed will never miraculously increase just like that . Plus , all the pictures and feats show that he only used V1 , you aren't objective at all .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

Fine, you think it's V1 Ei with laughable logic, we think it's V2 Ei with good logic. 

If he could up his speed, he'd of said "I can up my speed" or "I'll use my full speed to crush his guard"

He didn't say that.

Literally, all the picutres PROVE it is V2 Ei, his fucking braids are above his ears when he powers up.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 23, 2015)

> Fine, you think it's V1 Ei with laughable logic, we think it's V2 Ei with good logic.


Iam not interpreting anything , pictures show that he was in V1 , same for his says and intentions .



> If he could up his speed, he'd of said "I can up my speed" or "I'll use my full speed to crush his guard"


V1 and V2 anre just two principal states , Raikage could gradually speed up even in V1 or V2 like we saw here , and when he use his full speed he said it :

Then he says :
I get to up my speed , to have enough power to crush his guard . 
So he is even thinking that he can blitz Madara without his full speed .




> Literally, all the picutres PROVE it is V2 Ei, his fucking braids are above his ears when he powers up.


Lol , go read my previous post , or maybe you have vision problems , I can understand in that case .


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 23, 2015)

Nope, he says "I've got to up _the_ speed"

The only way you could suggest he was not at full speed is if he said "I can up my speed" or "I'll up my speed to crush his guard"

He stated Madara could guard against his speed, nothing you say will nullify that. After he said this, he did not say he could increase his speed.

Ergo, he cannot blitz Edo Madara. 

Ergo, he cannot blitz Hashirama, who is as fast as Living Madara. 

We're done here.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> LOOOOOL , the why are those chakra arms catching Minato and Sasuke



It was KCM Minato who reacted to Gudoudama's "changing form", not KCM Naruto.



> Full Mind Juubito's Taijutsu>>>>>>>>>>Mindless Juubito Taijutsu , the bestial Juubito don't even think to counter or look arround him :



*It doesnt matter.* Because Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed. He was retarted, yes, but he attacked Tobirama at that moment and Tobirama could react to him. KCM Minato couldnt react to him when Juubito attacked him. He had a chance to mark him, to do anything, but he did nothing. That proves Edo Tobirama was faster than KCM Edo Minato.



> Why SM stroke him ? It's obviously because he was marked , otherwise , Naruto would be instantly killed before even he think to touch him .



Yes.

But why in the world does that matter in this debate? 



> No it was V1 Ei ,everyone think that , you're the only exception , plus manga's feats are clear for all only you .



Everyone? Nope, not everyone. Lots of people think it was V2. That scan you provided proves nothing - Ei's hair moves with him when he moves in V2. You can see his hair there from such an angle that you cant be sure it is not up. Plus, Madara stopped his movement by blocking his punch. His Raiton Armor, however, was as thick as V2.

And here, it is even thicker than in his fight with Sasuke. I will post 2 scans for you to compare Raiton Armor's thickness.



The rest was brought by DaWizViz. I will only add that he said "you can guard yourself against *EVEN* my speed".

Clearly, it was V2. And if Edo Madara can block his punch point blank, then alive Hashirama, who is faster than Edo Madara, laughs at his speed, goes into Sage Mode and speedblitz V2 Ei, effortlessly.


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## Ghoztly (Sep 24, 2015)

It doesn't matter if it was v1 or v2, Hashirama takes a massive shit on him anyways with little effort.


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## Icegaze (Sep 24, 2015)

Wow this is an actual debate isn't it 

What evidence is there that A can knock out hashirama in 1 hit for those who laughably believe he will blitz


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> Is that looking like V2 ?



I already proved that A wasn't in his max speed in another thread(provided 3 or 4 arguments for that), but I believe Madara would be able to react to V2 A just like Minato or Sasuke did. Placing Hashi in the same ballpark, we could argue that Hashirama could as well.

Although neither Hashirama or Madara are anywhere close to A in terms of speed. They are just fast enough to prevent getting blitzed.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> I already proved that A wasn't in his max speed in another thread(provided 3 or 4 arguments for that), but I believe Madara would be able to react to V2 A just like Minato or Sasuke did. Placing Hashi in the same ballpark, we could argue that Hashirama could as well.


If you are talking about using Susano'o at the last second (and Hashi using Mokuton like Danzo) , then yeah I agree with you , but if you are talking about physical dodging , not at all .

Sasuke never dodged V2 Raikage , he couldn't even move a finger when he was Shunshinning , he is far below Minato in terms of reflexes and raw moves speed . But indeed , he used Enton , Jutsu's activation are sometimes much faster than moving .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I already proved that A wasn't in his max speed in another thread(provided 3 or 4 arguments for that), but I believe Madara would be able to react to V2 A just like Minato or Sasuke did. Placing Hashi in the same ballpark, we could argue that Hashirama could as well.
> 
> Although neither Hashirama or Madara are anywhere close to A in terms of speed. They are just fast enough to prevent getting blitzed.



No you didnt. You got countered by me, DaWizViz and few others. Even this scan was explained multiple times.

Alive Hashirama trolls V2 Ei and speedblitz him if he uses Sage Mode.



> If you are talking about using Susano'o at the last second (and Hashi using Mokuton like Danzo) , then yeah I agree with you , but if you are talking about physical dodging , not at all .
> 
> Sasuke never dodged V2 Raikage , he couldn't even move a finger when he was Shunshinning , he is far below Minato in terms of reflexes and raw moves speed . But indeed , he used Enton , Jutsu's activation are sometimes much faster than moving .



Not only Ei used his V2 against Edo Madara - judging from Raiton Armor's thickness, that V2 was even better than that which he used against Sasuke.

Alive Hashirama is more than fast enough to easily dodge/troll him. Sage Mode Hashirama can speedblitz him.


----------



## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> Not only Ei used his V2 against Edo Madara - judging from Raiton Armor's thickness, that V2 was even better than that which he used against Sasuke.


LOOOOL .



> Alive Hashirama is more than fast enough to easily dodge/troll him. Sage Mode Hashirama can speedblitz him.


Another LOOOL , Valley of the end alive Madara=Hashirama<Edo Madara<<alive War arc Madara .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> LOOOOL



Concession accepted. 



> Another LOOOL , Valley of the end alive Madara=Hashirama<Edo Madara<<alive War arc Madara .



In terms of speed, Alive Hashirama/Alive EMS Madara/RT blind Madara (but EMS Madara, unlike RT blind Madara, has precognition) > Edo Madara=Edo Hashirama.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 24, 2015)

> In terms of speed, Alive Hashirama/Alive EMS Madara/RT blind Madara (but EMS Madara, unlike RT blind Madara, has precognition) > Edo Madara=Edo Hashirama.


Go read the manga , only chakra's weaker than MSE level or a little higher are weakened by Kabuto's Edo Tensei , The proof Edo Hashi wasn't as strong as his alive version but  SDR , Muu , Gengetsu , Zabuza , Haku .... are all bringed back with their full power , and Madara can use his PS the most powerful MSE Jutsu so ....

Kabuto said that Madara was bring back even stronger than his prime :

So yeah it's confirmed :
Edo Madara>Alive valley of the end Madara .

Then we have Rikudo's word , a key moment to explain Madara's sudden increased speed , and apparently when his cells and Hashi cells perfectly fused , he obtained Rikudo Chakra level , that's why SM Naruto was easily striked , and that's why Edo Tensei can't bring him at his full power and speed :


----------



## LostSelf (Sep 24, 2015)

Ei's horribly stomped.

He might get a hit, _might_. But that's all he will do against the strongest Hokage (not counting Naruto).

Madara treated the kages like kids. And his Susano'o clones were fighting Ei's speed very well. Don't see why Hashi wouldn't.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> No you didnt. You got countered by me, DaWizViz and few others. Even this scan was explained multiple times.


Countered ? 
You couldn't adress even one of the points I presented.



> Alive Hashirama trolls V2 Ei and* speedblitz him if he uses Sage Mode*.



Thats the most baseless and trollish thing I've heard in a long while.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> Go read the manga , only chakra's weaker than MSE level or a little higher are weakened by Kabuto's Edo Tensei , The proof Edo Hashi wasn't as strong as his alive version but SDR , Muu , Gengetsu , Zabuza , Haku .... are all bringed back with their full power , and Madara can use his PS the most powerful MSE Jutsu so ....



The fact he can use PS doesnt prove he was brought back with his full power, with his full physical prowess. He was "beyond his golden age" according to Kabuto because he had Hashirama's mokuton and The Rinnegan. According to Kabuto, he was a fusion of Madara and Hashirama. But there is literally no proof his speed was amped.



> Kabuto said that Madara was bring back even stronger than his prime :



Generally stronger than EMS Madara without Kurama, but faster? Nope.



> So yeah it's confirmed :
> Edo Madara>Alive valley of the end Madara .



Not in terms of speed.



> Then we have Rikudo's word , a key moment to explain Madara's sudden increased speed , and apparently when his cells and Hashi cells perfectly fused , he obtained Rikudo Chakra level , that's why SM Naruto was easily striked , and that's why Edo Tensei can't bring him at his full power and speed :



He obtained Rikudou's chakra. A portion of it. He was never, ever, on Rikudou's level. And the chakra he obtained had nothing to do with his physical stats - it gave him The Rinnegan, that's it.

Finally, take a look at this.



You've lost this debate already.



> Countered ?
> You couldn't adress even one of the points I presented.



Yes, countered. And yes, i could. I countered you in that debate - it was V2 Ei. We can continue and i can counter you again, if you want. ANd i am not the only one who did that, by the way. 



> Thats the most baseless and trollish thing I've heard in a long while.



Oh realy? Tobirama could react to Juubi Jin's movement speed and striking speed, and marked him before half of his body was destroyed. SM RT Madara - basicly an equal of alive SM Hashirama in terms of speed - easily dodged Tobirama's strike. You call that "baseless and trollish thing"? 

SM Hashirama is more than fast enough to speedblitz V2 Ei.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 24, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Yes, countered. And yes, i could. I countered you in that debate - it was V2 Ei


Saying that he was V2 A over and over again doesn't counter anything. It is called denial.



> . We can continue and i can counter you again, if you want. ANd i am not the only one who did that, by the way.


You mean ignore everything I say and repeat your "argument" over and over again ?
And yes you are the only one who thinks what Madara is as fast as A or faster than Minato or whatever the hell you were claiming in that thread. 



> Oh realy? Tobirama could react to Juubi Jin's movement speed and striking speed, and marked him before half of his body was destroyed.


Marking Juubito required him to stop moving and rip him in half. Guess what ? He isn't fast when he stops moving.

Also that Juubi jin at that point was @ its weakest. Brainless and wasn't able to harness that power. 



> SM RT Madara - basicly an equal of alive SM Hashirama in terms of speed - easily dodged Tobirama's strike. You call that "baseless and trollish thing"?


What ? Dodging Tobirama makes him faster or as fast a V2 A ? 
How did you manage to connect those dots? Added a few extra manga chapters in between ? 


> SM Hashirama is more than fast enough to speedblitz V2 Ei.


There is absolutely no evidence that SM Hashirama is even fast enough to speed blitz V1 A. 
I have no idea what the hell you are smoking.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 24, 2015)

> Saying that he was V2 A over and over again doesn't counter anything. It is called denial.



Saying the opposite does?

Anyway, i wasnt just repeating that "it was V2 Ei".



> You mean ignore everything I say and repeat your "argument" over and over again ?
> And yes you are the only one who thinks what Madara is as fast as A or faster than Minato or whatever the hell you were claiming in that thread.



Can you give me an example of any arguement of yours which i ignored? At least one.

Let me start this all over again. It will fit this thread no problem. At first, i want you to explain, why his Raiton Armor here:



Is thicker then here.



I remember you complaining about his hair being different then in his previous V2 usages, although in both occasions, his hair is spikey.

In before you writing about Ei's own words.

I will copypaste DaWiz's words.



> He did not say
> "I can up my speed" or "I better up my speed for the next attack"
> 
> He said
> ...



By the way, we have the same opinion. That means i am not the only one. As if that matters anyway. I can back up my words. You, on the other hand, cant.



> Marking Juubito required him to stop moving and rip him in half. Guess what ? He isn't fast when he stops moving.
> 
> Also that Juubi jin at that point was @ its weakest. Brainless and wasn't able to harness that power.



In order to mark him, he had to react to his movement speed from point A to point B and to his striking speed, because he was, obviously, using his hands there. He marked him before he got ripped. 

Obito couldnt control The Juubi, so it took control over his body. But the chakra was stable. In terms of speed, mindless Juubito = non-mindless Juubito. Unless you have a proof of the opposite.



> What ? Dodging Tobirama makes him faster or as fast a V2 A ?
> How did you manage to connect those dots? Added a few extra manga chapters in between ?



That makes him capable of dodging V2 Ei's strike and killing him with mokuton without much of an effort. v2 Ei has no striking speed feats comparable to what Tobirama has done.



> There is absolutely no evidence that SM Hashirama is even fast enough to speed blitz V1 A.
> I have no idea what the hell you are smoking.



Not the super-strong weed you are seemingly smoking, that's for sure.

Who is faster in CQC - V1 Ei or SM Naruto?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 24, 2015)

At a five meter distance, A has the advantage. Though unless he scores a killing blow right at the start of the match (punching off Hashirama's head or crushing it) he can't win. Hashirama may have the slowest speed and reflexes of all the Hokages, but his damage soak is far greater and his ability to heal like Tsunade gives him a clear advantage despite being inferior in speed.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 24, 2015)

If Hashi is not decapitated and "only" has his ribcage damaged like it happened with Sasuke and Kisame- both of which were hit by Bee's lariat which was powered with Hachibi's chakra and Bee defeated Ei in a lariat clash- then he will heal rather fast and the Ei is doomed.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> At a five meter distance, A has the advantage. Though unless he scores a killing blow right at the start of the match (punching off Hashirama's head or crushing it) he can't win. Hashirama may have the slowest speed and reflexes of all the Hokages, but his damage soak is far greater and his ability to heal like Tsunade gives him a clear advantage despite being inferior in speed.



Edo Hashirama could keep up with Edo Madara, RT SM Madara, an equal of alive SM Hashirama (Rinnegan does not give any kind of speed boost, or precognition), dodged Tobirama's strike, easily.

V2 Ei has no chance of winning this fight.


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## Alex Payne (Sep 25, 2015)

Hashirama slower than Tsunade now? d


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## StarWanderer (Sep 25, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Hashirama slower than Tsunade now? d



Hashirama is slower than old Hiruzen? d


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

> Hashirama may have the slowest speed and reflexes of all the Hokages


Dude, did you read his Madara fights?


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## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> If you are talking about using Susano'o at the last second (and Hashi using Mokuton like Danzo) , then yeah I agree with you , but if you are talking about physical dodging , not at all .
> 
> Sasuke never dodged V2 Raikage , he couldn't even move a finger when he was Shunshinning , he is far below Minato in terms of reflexes and raw moves speed . But indeed , he used Enton , Jutsu's activation are sometimes much faster than moving .



Sasuke moved his hand before KCM Minato touched his right shoulder.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Sasuke moved his hand before KCM Minato touched his right shoulder.


1-Comparing Shunshin or FTG to raw moves speed.......:amazed
2-Bofore Sasuke moves his hands for 10cm , Minato already move his left hand 60cm , plus moving to the exact opposit side needs much more time , so KCM Minato's raw moves may be about ten times faster than EMS Sasuke .  .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Saying the opposite does?
> 
> Anyway, i wasnt just repeating that "it was V2 Ei".
> 
> ...



>2015
>Thinks Dawiz is a credible source for any kind of argument.

You must be really new.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 25, 2015)

>The 30-something year old man in love with a fictional male comic book character questions my credibility 
>
>


----------



## Hasan (Sep 25, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The funny part is people still think that V2 A.
> 
> and it's even more hilarious to think Hashirama can react.
> 
> ...



Did you seriously bring up portrayal, and still decided to argue for Ei? 



hbcaptain said:


> Is that looking like V2 ?



Ignoring the aesthetic inconsistencies that so often found their way into Kishi's work, seems to be case. There's literally no reason for Ei to not use his full speed, considering he was up against Madara. As the battle progresses further, and all of the Gokage seem to giving their best, there's still no visual indication that he's using version 2 of his armor, compared to when it debuted?but the writing seems to suggest, he is.


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## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> 1-Comparing Shunshin or FTG to raw moves speed.......:amazed
> 2-Bofore Sasuke moves his hands for 10cm , Minato already move his left hand 60cm , plus moving to the exact opposit side needs much more time , so KCM Minato's raw moves may be about ten times faster than EMS Sasuke .  .



Don't know what you're talking about. I'm talking when Juubito placed the bomb on Minato's shoulder.

Minato was desperately trying to take the bomb away with his left hann. While he was doing so, Sasuke moved his arm a bigger distance than Minato and activated Susano'o before Minato in KCM touched his right shoulder .

It doesn't take much more time. Also, Sasuke moved it after Minato was mid-movement .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> Minato was desperately trying to take the bomb away with his left hann. While he was doing so, Sasuke moved his arm a bigger distance than Minato and activated Susano'o before Minato in KCM touched his right shoulder .


I was talking about that , and go read the manga :

*Spoiler*: __ 







Sasuke just moved his hands 10 cm while Minato moved his left hand (slower than the right) 60 cm and near the shoulder , it even took much more time ,=====>KCM Minato's moves are at least 10 times faster ..... 

Plus the ribcage Susano'o can be instantly activated just like Obito's Kamui and FTG , it's so fast that even Juubi Jins moves can't be compared to it .


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## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

Sasuke moved his hand when Minato's hand was less than three inches away (It's so clear drawn in the panel that it's incredibly laughable that you ignore it). Lay down your picture of Minato and see better. Sasuke outpaced KCM Minato greatly. Unless, 60 meters for you is the distance his hand is crealy shown in the panel where he tries to grab the bomb.



> and go read the manga :



Of course, HBcaptain. Nobody reads the manga when we don't agree with your twisted and bizzarre logic.

I better don't bother with you, anymore .


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> Sasuke moved his hand when Minato's hand was less than three inches away (It's so clear drawn in the panel that it's incredibly laughable that you ignore it). Lay down your picture of Minato and see better. Sasuke outpaced KCM Minato greatly. Unless, 60 meters for you is the distance his hand is crealy shown in the panel where he tries to grab the bomb.










I we add that raising hand to the hole opposite and higher side is much more difficult , then KCM Minato's moves are about 10 times faster at least .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 25, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> >The 30-something year old man in love with a fictional male comic book character questions my credibility
> >
> >



And you think questioning someones sexual preference in regards to their knowledge and comprehension of a manga adds to your credibility ? 

The reason why you have 0 credibility is you actually lack the capability of understanding a 20 page comic with mainly pictures in it.  I don't care who you are in love with mate.


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## LostSelf (Sep 25, 2015)

Aren't you mistaking Sasuke's right hand with his left? The hand Sasuuke moved was his left, not his right. And Sasuke's shown moving one panel _after_ Minato.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 25, 2015)

> Aren't you mistaking Sasuke's right hand with his left? The hand Sasuuke moved was his left, not his right. And Sasuke's shown moving one panel after Minato.


Sasuke raised his two hands at the same time for few cm thath's all . And no Sasuke moved one panel after Minato .


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## Rocky (Sep 25, 2015)

A's going to connect with Hashirama as far as I'm concerned. For one, there's no actual feat that puts Hashirama's reflexes on par with Madara's. Two, not even Madara has proven that he can block v2 A from only five meters out.

That said, Hashirama can regenerate, so he'll be fine. Shodai still wins.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 25, 2015)

Ei couldnt blitz madara and hashiramas speed and reactions are on par with madara shown by the fact that they clashed equally in cqc for extended periods of time.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

> >2015
> >Thinks Dawiz is a credible source for any kind of argument.
> 
> You must be really new.



Do you have anything to say on the topic?



> A's going to connect with Hashirama as far as I'm concerned. For one, there's no actual feat that puts Hashirama's reflexes on par with Madara's. Two, not even Madara has proven that he can block v2 A from only five meters out.
> 
> That said, Hashirama can regenerate, so he'll be fine. Shodai still wins.



The distance was greater than 5 meters, sure, but Edo Madara reacted to V2 Ei only when Ei's fist was few inches from his face. Even if there was 5 meters distance, he would have reacted in the same way, putting up his hands to block his punch. That feat proves 2 things:

1) Edo Madara's hand speed is at least V2 Ei's level.
2) Edo Madara's reaction speed is fast enough to react to V2 Ei's speed even at point blank range.

Take a look at these scans:



Take a look at this scan:



Their movement speed, their Shunshin and their reflexes seemed to be on the same level, dont you think?

Plus, Hashirama is a sensor.

He is fast enough to react to V2 Ei's blitz even from 5 meters distance. After he activates Sage Mode, he is capable of speedblitzing V2 Ei by himself.


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## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2015)

Well mods have decided to stop giving a shit 
I mean when has A ever blitz and 1 shotted someone 

Isn't that the best one can hope for ?

The guy failed to blitz spiral zetsu mehn


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The guy failed to blitz spiral zetsu mehn



Yeah, because Ei totally wasn't exhausted SZ totally isn't on his statue.

Try harder.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 26, 2015)

@StarWandered

Look at your own thread :


*Ei used V2 * : 
StarWandered 
Alex Payne 
Lostself

*Ei didn't use V2 :* 
Hussain 
t0xeus 
ATastyMuffin  
Icegaze  
RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki  
Strategoob  
Grimmjowsensei  
hbcaptain 

Feats and majority show that Ei used Just V1 against Edo Madara and you are still blablating nonsens as always ... rol

Madara can't physically react to V2 Raikage , he is forced to use Susano'o to protect himself against someone much faster and stronger than him .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @StarWandered
> 
> Look at your own thread :
> 
> ...



I commented that nonsense.

As for "feats" - dude, either you can write something on the topic, or i wont take you seriously. You couldnt refute what i've written so far. 

And one more thing:



*DEFINITELY* V1, lol.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 26, 2015)

So that's definytly V2   

You are trolling as awlyas , here your troll list :

-Tobirama's raw moves are faster than Juubitos .
-Tobirama is faster than KCM Minato .
-Madara can react to V2 Raikage .
-SM Naruto is faster than KCM Minato .
.....

And I surly forgot a lot of other absurd statements .


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @StarWandered
> 
> Look at your own thread :
> 
> ...





DaVizWiz said:


> 12 active debaters for V2, majority:
> >ARGUS
> >Rocky
> >DaVizWiz
> ...



Hussain plz


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## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

> So that's definytly V2



Due to the speed of his movement, his hair also "moves". Also, Madara stopped his movement by blocking his punch, which also resulted in hair movement, you know. His Raiton Armor's thickness, however, was as good, or even thicker, then in his previous V2 usages. 



> You are trolling as awlyas , here your troll list :
> 
> -Tobirama's raw moves are faster than Juubitos .
> -Tobirama is faster than KCM Minato .
> ...



1) Tobirama's raw *striking* speed was fast enough to mark Juubito.
2) Yes, he is. He could do what KCM Minato couldnt whe he had a chance.
3) Yes, he can. In fact - he did that in manga.
4) I have never, ever, wrote such a thing. 

That's not trolling. I can back all of these up with canon. You couldnt refute any of those.


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2015)

People who said that it's V1 Ei have to tell me why he used V1 against motherfucking Madara.

Because that doesn't make sense.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 26, 2015)

> Due to the speed of his movement, his hair also "moves". Also, Madara stopped his movement by blocking his punch, which also resulted in hair movement, you know. His Raiton Armor's thickness, however, was as good, or even thicker, then in his previous V2 usages.


Yeah , so his air suddenly moved to V1 against Madara while it didn't against MS Sasuke , apparently trolling as always :

*Spoiler*: __ 












> 1) Tobirama's raw striking speed was fast enough to mark Juubito.
> 2) Yes, he is. He could do what KCM Minato couldnt whe he had a chance.
> 3) Yes, he can. In fact - he did that in manga.
> 4) I have never, ever, wrote such a thing.


1-loooool , since when bestial Juubito care about beeing marked , tagged or striked , he himself striked his own self . Plus comparing Juubito's Shunshin to the very slow GudoDama's changng form , lol .
2-Another lol comparing FTG speed to move speed .
3-Another looool , he never did it , plus V2 take too much chakra to Raikage .
4-OOOOOOOOOOL , You are always blabalting that Tobirama is faster than KCM Minato because he teleported before he can moves , SM Naruto striked Juubito before he can move , so by your absrud logic , SM Naruto is also faster than KCM Minato .

Plus Tobirama's moves are so slow (tens of times slower) than Juubito's that he is scared by him even while he was marked :


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 26, 2015)

> Yeah , so his air suddenly moved to V1 against Madara while it didn't against MS Sasuke , apparently trolling as always :



We can see his hair from above, so we cant be sure his hair was not spikey. Plus, in the scan you brought there, you cant see his hair right at the moment of movement stoppage. Madara slowed down his movement by blocking his punch. So that hair makes sense.

Take a look at this:



Plus, he used V2 against MS Sasuke, against KCM Naruto. Why do you think he wont use it against Madara?



> 1-loooool , since when bestial Juubito care about beeing marked , tagged or striked , he himself striked his own self . Plus comparing Juubito's Shunshin to the very slow GudoDama's changng form , lol .
> 2-Another lol comparing FTG speed to move speed .
> 3-Another looool , he never did it , plus V2 take too much chakra to Raikage .
> 4-OOOOOOOOOOL , You are always blabalting that Tobirama is faster than KCM Minato because he teleported before he can moves , SM Naruto striked Juubito before he can move , so by your absrud logic , SM Naruto is also faster than KCM Minato .
> ...



1. You clearly dont understand what i am talking about. 

At that moment, Juubito Shunshinned to him and stroke him. Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed. It doesnt matter that he didnt care about himself being attacked - he attacked Tobirama at that moment and Tobirama could mark him. KCM Minato was also attacked by Juubito, but couldnt do anything. There is no speed difference between mindless Juubito and non-mindless one.

2. Do you have any proof he used FTG in order to get to Gudoudama? Do you have any proof he could use FTG to get there? 

3. He did. There were tons of proofs in this debate, and many others.

4. Not because of that, although that is a great feat as well, since Tobirama's clone Shunshinned there. 

Juubito was marked. And it was Tobirama who teleported him there.

Yeah, because he was guarding his back.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 26, 2015)

> We can see his hair from above, so we cant be sure his hair was not spikey. Plus, in the scan you brought there, you cant see his hair right at the moment of movement stoppage. Madara slowed down his movement by blocking his punch. So that hair makes sense.


It wasn't moved down to V1 chakra level , it was V2 level just as always , *his V2 hair move just horizontally  *, plus why would he suddenly stop V1 if even V2 isn't affecting Madara LOOOOL ? 




> Plus, he used V2 against MS Sasuke, against KCM Naruto. Why do you think he wont use it against Madara?


Raikage never use V1 form the first , Minato is an exception because he has a god-like speeder reputation , plus he said himself that he was just trying to hold Madara while Tusnade is healing Gaara and Onoki :




> At that moment, Juubito Shunshinned to him and stroke him. Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed. It doesnt matter that he didnt care about himself being attacked - he attacked Tobirama at that moment and Tobirama could mark him. KCM Minato was also attacked by Juubito, but couldnt do anything. There is no speed difference between mindless Juubito and non-mindless one.


Then show me the exact moment when Tobirama tagged Juubito .lol ,  . And show exactly me where Tobirama reacted to his MOVEMENT speed not GudoDama's changing form , always balblating nonsens .


> 3. He did. There were tons of proofs in this debate, and many others.


No there is a lot of proofs but you don't seem to accept it .



> 4. Not because of that, although that is a great feat as well, since Tobirama's clone Shunshinned there.


Loooooooool , you have already forgotten his shoulder mark on Minato's body , apparently ....
And so You are saying that Tobirama is a dumb , he just used Shunshin while he can use FTG , much easier to use and activate in such a situation . You have to chose :
-Tobirama is the dumbest character of the manga .
-Tobirama's clone is faster than KCM Minato .
The feat is very clear , but as always blablatin nonsens .




> 2. Do you have any proof he used FTG in order to get to Gudoudama? Do you have any proof he could use FTG to get there?


Whuut ?


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> People who said that it's V1 Ei have to tell me why he used V1 against motherfucking Madara.
> 
> Because that doesn't make sense.



The same reason why he used V1 against someone who allegedly captured and potentially killed his brother.
A was bloodlusted from the start and he only opted to use his max speed when the situation required him to.


I don't think "he was against Madara, ofcourse he used his strongest attack" is a legit argument. 
It isn't a legit argument in any case.


----------



## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The same reason why he used V1 against someone who allegedly captured and potentially killed his brother.
> A was bloodlusted from the start and he only opted to use his max speed when the situation required him to.
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah sure, but you have to realise that unlike with Madara, he (probably, I don't remember well) didn't know that Sasuke had the MS and thus likely thought that V1 would be enough (which it was until Susano).

When he actually saw the MS he went straight up V2, so I don't get why he wouldn't go V2 against someone who actually had the Rinnegan.

Plus there's the whole fact about commenting on Madara blocking him, which wouldn't make sense if it was V1 because even motherfucking Juugo blocked it


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Yeah sure, but you have to realise that unlike with Madara, he (probably, I don't remember well) didn't know that Sasuke had the MS and thus likely thought that V1 would be enough (which it was until Susano).


I think it is like a general rule that characters first feel each other out and then opt to use their stronger moves depending on the circumstances.It would be more convenient for A to simply erase Sasuke with V2 right from the start because he thought Sasuke was the guy who killed his brother and he was completely bloodlusted, but he didn't.

In that sense there is no reason for him to go at Madara with his strongest. 

I also explained why that wasn't the replica of his feat against Minato, even if A had V2 cloak on(if we chose to round 6 up to 10 instead of 5).



> When he actually saw the MS he went straight up V2, so I don't get why he wouldn't go V2 against someone who actually had the Rinnegan.


PIS/CIS

Characters do it all the time.
Everybody knew who Madara was and no one used their strongest ability right from the start against him.

Why does A have to be the exception here ? 

I think this is just using double standarts to justify what you believe in.



> Plus there's the whole fact about commenting on Madara blocking him, which wouldn't make sense if it was V1 because even motherfucking Juugo blocked it



Juugo didn't block it, he got wrecked.

I think it is more impressive than reacting to A's speed. Guarding against it bare handed.

Also If you notice, A never mentions the word "react" or "keep up". He says "guard." Then he says "I have to up that speed and crush his guard."


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## Icegaze (Sep 26, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Yeah, because Ei totally wasn't exhausted SZ totally isn't on his statue.
> 
> Try harder.



so exhausted he could still use RNY?  troll much?

hashirama in 1 clap of his hands can create an over 200m distance between them. budda statue takes 1 clap. we saw how A performed against a baby version 

hashirama is only getting blitz by choice, killed never again such a fly 


for those who say why would A use V1 against madara..

well he did start in V1 when bloodlusted against team taka, the same people who he thought killed his brother

so bloodlusted even A started in v1. any thoughts?

going V2 against minato yet not against madara makes as much sense as minato hearing A is fast and spreading 30+ kunai yet 

minato only decides to throw 6 when engaging a blood juubi jin, or 1 in madara case

characters do dumb things. 

though V1 or V2..A has no feats to suggest he kills hashirama


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## Hachibi (Sep 26, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so exhausted he could still use RNY?  troll much?



Look like someone doesn't know that being exhausted decrease physical capabilities.

Just because he was in RNY doesn't mean he has the same speed.



> we saw how A performed against a baby version



Sasuga Ice-kun, it look like you don't know what a context is.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 26, 2015)

hbcaptain said:


> @StarWandered
> 
> Look at your own thread :
> 
> ...



Literally wrong, here's the actual list:


			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> 12 active debaters for V2, majority:
> >ARGUS
> >Rocky
> >DaVizWiz
> ...



Because you're a n00b who was only active for under a month, you're not counted hpcaptain.

Again, stop singling out StarWanderer, because YOU'RE in the MINORITY, HE'S in the MAJORITY.

And for the record, Icegaze is neutral on it 

Nice shit post


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## Nikushimi (Sep 26, 2015)

Even if A instantly powers up and blitzes Hashirama with everything he has from the match start...

Hashirama has natural regenerative abilities AND medical Ninjutsu Madara considered on another level from Tsunade's until she revealed Byakugo.

Plus, he was fast enough to wood clone feint Juubito, who speedblitzed KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. The Raikage hasn't got shit on that.



			
				DaVizWiz said:
			
		

> >Nikushima (super fanboy, rarely taken seriously)
> 
> Nice company you've got there btw.



Trying to smear the people who don't agree with you, with unprovoked insults, doesn't validate or lend credibility to your reasoning.

I don't know how you got me on that list in the first place, because I never commented in this thread whether I thought A attacked Madara at his max speed when Madara blocked (I don't; good guess).

What's truly ironic is that your division between V1 and V2 comes from a distinction between states that don't exist. A has one state that he is constantly in: Raiton armor. However much he pumps that up with chakra and pours into his Shunshin determines how fast he is.

But I guess if you weren't attacking and marginalizing people, you'd have no way to distract us from your weak argument.

Facts aren't democratically elected; instead of taking inventory, how about you actually synthesize a coherent proof that A was attacking with his maximum speed. It's not gonna matter how many people voted for one answer or the other until an answer has been demonstrated correct.


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## ARGUS (Sep 27, 2015)

Ay going V2 right before striking madara 


the dude instantly went V2, the second  he saw the MS, against sasuke, 

knowing madara, and his immense status as the legendary shinobi, as well as the fact that he not only singlehandedly obliterated the entire 4th division of  the army but also has the EMS (a superior dojutsu) but also mokuton and also the rinnegan (the strongest known dojutsu at that point of time) 

it makes absolutely no sense why Ay wont go all out against madara, especially when hes trying to break his guard with his speed, 
and Ay being surprised on madara blocking against his speed is further proof that he used V2, 

whats implied and whats clearly evident has far more value than a mere drawing error 

and as for there being no evidence on hashirama being on par with Madara?  Lol what? 
they have been physical equals throughout their lives, which includes speed, and strength 

hashirama ran through the entire mountain ranges and was briefly able to outrun kilometer the  PS-TBB and gain enough space and time to form the gates to change its trajectory 

that alone puts him in the same echelon as Madara, who blocked Ays sneak attack whilst dodging Meis lava at the same time,


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## ShadoLord (Sep 27, 2015)

Hashirama would fodderize Ay. 

You didn't put any restrictions whatsoever on Hashirama?


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 27, 2015)

> Trying to smear the people who don't agree with you, with unprovoked insults, doesn't validate or lend credibility to your reasoning.


I'm not trying to do anything, people don't need me to flag you as fanboys, you have no problem showing that yourselves.

I've been here for years, read and replied to hundreds of your posts. I give everyone a fair shake, my conclusion, where I am more qualified than most to provide, is you are a fanboy. I'm sorry if that offends you. 

But it will be brought up to question who that fanboy's opinion sits with, especially when he's claiming his opinion is majority when it's clearly minority-compliments of debate sullying Itachi and Minotard fanboys like yourself. 



> I don't know how you got me on that list in the first place, because I never commented in this thread whether I thought A attacked Madara at his max speed when Madara blocked (I don't; good guess).


It wasn't a guess, I remember you claiming it was V1 multiple times in different threads.

Basically, you, Grimmjow & Strategoob, the Itachitard fanboys, are usually all on the same 4th grade thinking wave. You all agree on 95% of topics, and 100% on Itachi topics. It's actually quite interesting. 

You can throw in Ersatz as well (another Itachitard), he's on that thinking wave 80% of the time.

As for Minotards (Hussain & RaSenko) I give them the benefit of the doubt and put them on that 9th grade thinking wave because they often disagree on other topics. 



> Facts aren't democratically elected; instead of taking inventory, how about you actually synthesize a coherent proof that A was attacking with his maximum speed. It's not gonna matter how many people voted for one answer or the other until an answer has been demonstrated correct.


I have constructed dozens of paragraphs of arguments on this specific topic in several different threads. 

You may click my name, and look through my past posts to find them. 

Here's one of my posts: 

Now please don't storm into a thread and charge me with providing an argument again. At least until you've actually provided any semblance of one not pertaining to "Itachi solos"


> What's truly ironic is that your division between V1 and V2 comes from a distinction between states that don't exist. A has one state that he is constantly in: Raiton armor. However much he pumps that up with chakra and pours into his Shunshin determines how fast he is.


Now you're really in the minority, your fellow Itachitard bunshins wouldn't even agree with you on this one. This is that 5% deviation I was talking about. 

You're still the only dude on here denying V2 as an accurate indication of full powered Raikage, where there is a clear distinction between his speed as apposed to his less-than-fully-amped cloak.


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

> It wasn't moved down to V1 chakra level , it was V2 level just as always , his V2 hair move just horizontally , plus why would he suddenly stop V1 if even V2 isn't affecting Madara LOOOOL ?



His hair moves due to the great speed of his. Madara blocked his punch, thus slowed him down. That is why his hair looked like that. But not only he pumped up his chakra levels even greater than in his fight with Sasuke, due to a thicker Raiton Armor, but in the scan which you use to refute me his Raiton Armor is as thick as V2. Hair is not the only indication of V2 RCM.



> Raikage never use V1 form the first , Minato is an exception because he has a god-like speeder reputation , plus he said himself that he was just trying to hold Madara while Tusnade is healing Gaara and Onoki :



He used his top speed from the start against Minato. And he was reputed for stopping Kyuubi's abduction, as i remember. He was not even remotively close to Madara Uchiha in terms of hype. Here, we have Edo Madara, who was renimated, who's mere *name* provoked all countries to unite. It doesnt matter if he was trying to hold him off - due to his level of hype, that wont make sense for him to not use his V2 speed.

Ei used V2. That makes sense and he pumped his chakra to V2 right before attacking Madara. It clearly was V2.



> Then show me the exact moment when Tobirama tagged Juubito .lol , . And show exactly me where Tobirama reacted to his MOVEMENT speed not GudoDama's changing form , always balblating nonsens .



Can you show me Juubito changing his Gudoudama while attacking him? No you cant. What can we see there, in the manga? We can see that Tobirama, judging from his body's position after being teared by Gudoudama, marked him with his hand before it vanished. KCM Minato doesnt have feats of that caliber. And he failed to do anything when he had to deal with Juubito's striking speed.



> No there is a lot of proofs but you don't seem to accept it .



Such as? Can you bring them up here? Because as far as this debate goes, i've countered all of them.



> Loooooooool , you have already forgotten his shoulder mark on Minato's body , apparently ....
> And so You are saying that Tobirama is a dumb , he just used Shunshin while he can use FTG , much easier to use and activate in such a situation . You have to chose :
> -Tobirama is the dumbest character of the manga .
> -Tobirama's clone is faster than KCM Minato .
> The feat is very clear , but as always blablatin nonsens .



Can you show me an instance where he marked Minato *before* Juubito attached Gudoudama to him? Because i dont remember that moment.

He couldnt use FTG, because no one there was marked and Gudoudama wasnt marked too. The only option he had was to Shunshin there. And his Shunshin was fast. since even after that, he could save shinobi from Shinju's tree branches.



> Whuut ?



Let me ask you another, more suitable quastion - do you have any proof someone, or something there was marked by Tobirama's FTG formula?


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## hbcaptain (Sep 27, 2015)

StarWanderer; said:
			
		

> His hair moves due to the great speed of his. Madara blocked his punch, thus slowed him down. That is why his hair looked like that. But not only he pumped up his chakra levels even greater than in his fight with Sasuke, due to a thicker Raiton Armor, but in the scan which you use to refute me his Raiton Armor is as thick as V2. Hair is not the only indication of V2 RCM.


-Ei always talks about his top speed when he use it .
-Ei said he should raise his speed and power .
-Lee was able to slice Madara ===>Ei wasn't using his full power , if he use it , Madara would be severly crushed no matter what , his arm is nothing compared to his full power punch .
-[B]Ei's hair in V2 move only horizontally[/B] like against Sasuke ,* it never get off to V1 level *, Ei was always in V2 even when he used many Shunshin and moves against MS Sasuke , that was never the case against Madara .

===>It's pretty clear that he used V2 , only minority , Hashirama/Tobirama/Madara fans say that he was using V2 .




> He used his top speed from the start against Minato. And he was reputed for stopping Kyuubi's abduction, as i remember. He was not even remotively close to Madara Uchiha in terms of hype. Here, we have Edo Madara, who was renimated, who's mere *name* provoked all countries to unite. It doesnt matter if he was trying to hold him off - due to his level of hype, that wont make sense for him to not use his V2 speed.


Since when Madara=Minato in speed ? Are you trolling , Minato was known as a god-speed , anyone can keep up with him while Madara is only known because of his destrcutive Susano'o power . *He himself said that he was only holding him until Tsunade heal the other Kages .*





> Can you show me Juubito changing his Gudoudama while attacking him? No you cant. What can we see there, in the manga? We can see that Tobirama, judging from his body's position after being teared by Gudoudama, marked him with his hand before it vanished. KCM Minato doesnt have feats of that caliber. And he failed to do anything when he had to deal with Juubito's striking speed.


No I can't but you can't show me that he reacted to his Shunshin before GudoDama's Changinf form either , since we know that changing form is pretty slow and that* Tobirama is scared by Juubito's moves speed , I have already posted that many times .* Then it's pretty clear that he never reacted to his Shunshin or moves but only GudoDama's changing form :






> Can you show me an instance where he marked Minato *before* Juubito attached Gudoudama to him? Because i dont remember that moment.


Yeah ok , then :

-Injured Lee is faster than Kimimaro : 

-Sai is faster than Sasuke :  

*Spoiler*: __ 







-Yamato is faster than Sasuke  

*Spoiler*: __ 







-Suigetsu is faster than V1 Raikage :  


*Shunshin+move>>>>>>>>>>>>Raw moves , it was always the case since the beginning of the manga , and you can nver change that . And that's not proving anything about Tobirama's clone faster than KCM Minato , torilling as always , just thinking that is obvious that Tobirama will never reach KCM Minato's speed even if he dreams about it .
*


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## Icegaze (Sep 27, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Look like someone doesn't know that being exhausted decrease physical capabilities.
> 
> Just because he was in RNY doesn't mean he has the same speed.
> 
> ...



Lol hachibi-chan 

By how much did his abilities decrease then cuz we all know hashirama >>>>spiral in every single way 

So again try not to troll


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

> -Ei always talks about his top speed when he use it .
> -Ei said he should raise his speed and power .
> -Lee was able to slice Madara ===>Ei wasn't using his full power , if he use it , Madara would be severly crushed no matter what , his arm is nothing compared to his full power punch .
> -*Ei's hair in V2 move only horizontally* like against Sasuke , it never get off to V1 level , Ei was always in V2 even when he used many Shunshin and moves against MS Sasuke , that was never the case against Madara .
> ...



And he said "even my speed". 

He said "i've got to up the speed". He never said something like "i will up my speed", or something like that. He had a dilemma, which Onoki solved by making him lighter. And even then, Edo Madara could track lightened Ei's movement.

Lee was able to do that due to Madara having problems with Juubi's control. Lee moved as fast as FRS, to which Edo Madara could easily react earlier. And Lee's kick was linear. Plus, Lee was amped by Kurama's chakra. So that doesnt refute anything i've written earlier. And it doesnt refute Edo Madara's durability.

It havent got off to V1. Take a look at this scan. Looks familiar, doesnt it?



His hair is visible from such an angle that you cant be sure if it was spiked or not.

As for V2's deactivation - what's the point to use it further when your opponent can easily block it? He would waste his chakra without getting any result.

By the way, is this V2?





> Since when Madara=Minato in speed ? Are you trolling , Minato was known as a god-speed , anyone can keep up with him while Madara is only known because of his destrcutive Susano'o power . He himself said that he was only holding him until Tsunade heal the other Kages .



Madara was reputed to be *God of Shinobi's rival*. Shinobi all over the world feared his mere name and unitied because of fear of Madara Uchiha. Right before Gokage arrived there, he destroyed most of the 4th Division. 

How idiotic Raikage must be to not use his full speed against Madara Uchiha, even to hold him? Madara Uchiha's hype was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minato's hype. It would have been retarted for Raikage to hold himself back against such an opponent, especially when V2 makes his attacks not only faster, but more powerful.

And again - do you think i give a rat's backdoor about the majority, or minority? I can back up my words with canon, with scans, with common sense. You, on the other hand, cant. That's why you've lost this debate long before this comment of yours.



> No I can't but you can't show me that he reacted to his Shunshin before GudoDama's Changinf form either , since we know that changing form is pretty slow and that Tobirama is scared by Juubito's moves speed , I have already posted that many times . Then it's pretty clear that he never reacted to his Shunshin or moves but only GudoDama's changing form :



We cant see him forming his Gudoudama during that attack, at all. Plus, before that attack, Hokages were talking about how powerful he was. He could create Gudoudamas during their speach, that fits the manga pretty well. Plus, he had to put up his hand in order to use those Gudoudamas to strike Hashirama's clone and Tobirama himself. Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed, marking him by the hand which was destroyed by Gudoudama - he did something KCM Minato couldnt do.

Because he started to guard his back. KCM Minato would have been destroyed if he teleported there by himself. 



> Yeah ok , then :
> 
> -Injured Lee is faster than Kimimaro :
> Spoiler:
> ...



I asked you a quastion. You had no answer.

Sai just reacted to his attack, that doesnt prove he is faster. The same with Yamato and Suigetsu. 

I am not saying that Tobirama's clone was faster than KCM Minato. The original Tobirama was. Clone, however, wasnt. But that clone demonstrated comparable reaction speed in that instance.


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## Icegaze (Sep 27, 2015)

And juubi hype >>>>>>>>> A's hype yet Minato uses 30 kunai to DEFEND himself against A while choosing to attack juubito with 6 and juudara with 1 

Clearly characters can be dumb . If with 6 Kunai he didn't get the drop on juubito clearly would be foolish to attack juudara with just 1 yet he did 

So A having to go V2 cuz of madara hype would be false logic 

Was he in V1 or 2 against madara clones I don't even know 

However I think he went V2 off the bat based on his bout with sasuke and how sasuke could defend himself .


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## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

> And juubi hype >>>>>>>>> A's hype yet Minato uses 30 kunai to DEFEND himself against A while choosing to attack juubito with 6 and juudara with 1



because he didnt have lots of them? Or because those situations were completely different from Ei's confrontation? Using 30+ Kunais against Juubito would have been useless. He wanted to attack him, not to dodge his attack, although that was a possibility, to kunais on the battlefield. And what's the point to use 30+ kunai against Juubidara when you cant through them strong enough to get past Juubidara in order to hit his back and when you have to act fast? 



> Clearly characters can be dumb . If with 6 Kunai he didn't get the drop on juubito clearly would be foolish to attack juudara with just 1 yet he did



Raikage, basicly a governor of his village, cant be *that* dumb. 



> So A having to go V2 cuz of madara hype would be false logic



Nope. That will make sense, especially when he used top speed right from the start against someone who is not even close to Madara in terms of hype.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 27, 2015)

> Madara was reputed to be *God of Shinobi's rival*. Shinobi all over the world feared his mere name and unitied because of fear of Madara Uchiha. Right before Gokage arrived there, he destroyed most of the 4th Division.
> 
> How idiotic Raikage must be to not use his full speed against Madara Uchiha, even to hold him? Madara Uchiha's hype was >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Minato's hype. It would have been retarted for Raikage to hold himself back against such an opponent, especially when V2 makes his attacks not only faster, but more powerful.


Apparently , you need to reread the manga , until he fought Madara with the other Kages , *Minato was the strongest Shinobis and no one had never surpassed him* , and so for the Raikage Minato's hype>Hashirama and Madara .





> We cant see him forming his Gudoudama during that attack, at all. Plus, before that attack, Hokages were talking about how powerful he was. He could create Gudoudamas during their speach, that fits the manga pretty well. Plus, he had to put up his hand in order to use those Gudoudamas to strike Hashirama's clone and Tobirama himself. Tobirama reacted to his movement speed and striking speed, marking him by the hand which was destroyed by Gudoudama - he did something KCM Minato couldnt do.


*Tobirama is scared by Juubito's moves speed , * what you say is totaly absurd , he didn"t  create Gudodamas during their speach but when he grabbed them both Hashirama and Tobirama , then when he was changing his GudoDamas form , Tobirama tagged and marked him because it's slow, Tobirama himself said that Juubito is by faaaaaaaaar faster than him .




> Because he started to guard his back. KCM Minato would have been destroyed if he teleported there by himself.


No , he would teleport before , he can mark him in many places , and FTG before beeing hit by GudoDamas because he is faster than Tobirama , he even teleported his son in the same situation so....




> I asked you a quastion. You had no answer.


What's taht question  .



> Sai just reacted to his attack, that doesnt prove he is faster. The same with Yamato and Suigetsu.
> 
> I am not saying that Tobirama's clone was faster than KCM Minato. The original Tobirama was. Clone, however, wasnt. But that clone demonstrated comparable reaction speed in that instance.


And that doesn't prove anything , Sasuke is by faaaaaaar faster than Sai or Yamato , V1 Raikage is by faaaaaaaaaar faster , but they reacted to raw moves using Shunshin . it's prove one only statement :
Shunshin+move>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Raw moves in terms of speed , so your Tobirama's clone example is just shit as an argument .

Tobirama can never reach even 1/5 of KCM Minato's speed :
-Tobirama's feats : he said himself that Juubito will completly annihilate him even when he was marked .
-KCM Minato's feats : He stand up against Juubito for some moves and just lost one arm .

Conclusion : KCM Minato's raw moves>>>>>>>>Tobirama's raw moves .

As for your V2 Ei picture , it doesn't prove anything , since Ei was V1 when he hit him and didn't broke his guard (or are you saying that Lee is stronger) , Raikage wasn't even using half of his speed .


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Sep 27, 2015)

Hashirama grabs Ei's throat and crushes him with his immense chakra.


----------



## StarWanderer (Sep 27, 2015)

> Apparently , you need to reread the manga , until he fought Madara with the other Kages , Minato was the strongest Shinobis and no one had never surpassed him , and so for the Raikage Minato's hype>Hashirama and Madara .



Minato was not even close to be the strongest shinobi up to that moment. Not even remotively close. 

But yeah, Raikage said to Naruto that he *thought* no one could surpass him. However, Madara had a lot more hype than Minato. God of Shinobi's rival, who's *name only* forced all shinobi in the world to unite because of fear. 

That is why it would have been stupid for Raikage to hold himself back against such an opponent. And you have nothing to counter this scan.





> Tobirama is scared by Juubito's moves speed , what you say is totaly absurd , he didn"t create Gudodamas during their speach but when he grabbed them both Hashirama and Tobirama , then when he was changing his GudoDamas form , Tobirama tagged and marked him because it's slow, Tobirama himself said that Juubito is by faaaaaaaaar faster than him .



He started to guard his back, but that doesnt mean he would have used movement speed only to kill anyone who appeares behind him. Tobirama didnt know anything about Juubito, after all.

You have to back up your words. My words perfectly make sense, because we cant see him changing Gudoudamas while attacking both of them. And they had a speach during which Juubito could create those Gudoudamas.

Tobirama marked him because he reacted to his movement speed and striking speed. Juubito had to Shunshin, had to move his hand there. 

When did he say that Juubito is by far faster than him? Provide a scan, please.



> No , he would teleport before , he can mark him in many places , and FTG before beeing hit by GudoDamas because he is faster than Tobirama , he even teleported his son in the same situation so....



That is your fanfic which you cant back up by anything. You dont have any proof, any common sense on your side, at all. 

He teleported his son in a completely different situations. Should i remind you why those situations were completely different?



> What's taht question .



This question:



> Let me ask you another, more suitable quastion - do you have any proof someone, or something there was marked by Tobirama's FTG formula?



You had no answer. 



> And that doesn't prove anything , Sasuke is by faaaaaaar faster than Sai or Yamato , V1 Raikage is by faaaaaaaaaar faster , but they reacted to raw moves using Shunshin . it's prove one only statement :
> Shunshin+move>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Raw moves in terms of speed , so your Tobirama's clone example is just shit as an argument .



Hebi Sasuke was faster, but not by far. That is your assumption. 

V1 Ei was not "by far" faster than MS Sasuke. That is another assumption of yours.

As for your logic - that is laughable. And you should re-read my post there. Tobirama's clone has shown comparable reaction speed there. That's it.



> Tobirama can never reach even 1/5 of KCM Minato's speed :
> -Tobirama's feats : he said himself that Juubito will completly annihilate him even when he was marked .
> -KCM Minato's feats : He stand up against Juubito for some moves and just lost one arm .



-he said that after Juubito started to protect his back. Plus, he didnt know about all of Juubito's powers. How does that prove anything is beyond me.
-And did nothing, while Tobirama could mark him. Plus, Tobirama didnt attempt to dodge him in that instance.

Anyway, it is clear as day that you are Minato's fanboy. Alright.



> Conclusion : KCM Minato's raw moves>>>>>>>>Tobirama's raw moves .



According to your fanfic? Tobirama's raw movements, in fact, were faster than Minato's.



> As for your V2 Ei picture , it doesn't prove anything , since Ei was V1 when he hit him and didn't broke his guard (or are you saying that Lee is stronger) , Raikage wasn't even using half of his speed .



And again - assumptions. Only assumptions without any proof, any common sense. I've already explained that his hair is visible from such an angle that you cant be sure if they are spiked or not, plus his hair moves as the result of his own speed, plus Madara blocked his punch, thus slowed him down momentarily. 

In before you concede.


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## hbcaptain (Sep 27, 2015)

StarWandered said:
			
		

> Minato was not even close to be the strongest shinobi up to that moment. Not even remotively close.
> 
> But yeah, Raikage said to Naruto that he *thought* no one could surpass him. However, Madara had a lot more hype than Minato. God of Shinobi's rival, who's *name only* forced all shinobi in the world to unite because of fear.
> 
> That is why it would have been stupid for Raikage to hold himself back against such an opponent. And you have nothing to counter this scan.


No , Madara has 7 Bijuu , the Gedo Mazo , Edo Tensei in his side , one indiviudal means nothing when it comes to an army . And yeah , until he fought Madara , for him Minato was never surpassed by anyone even Madara , you can never change that . Hashirama was known as  the god of Shinobis while Minato was known as the Yellow flash the God-like speed .






> He started to guard his back, but that doesnt mean he would have used movement speed only to kill anyone who appeares behind him. Tobirama didnt know anything about Juubito, after all.
> 
> You have to back up your words. My words perfectly make sense, because we cant see him changing Gudoudamas while attacking both of them. And they had a speach during which Juubito could create those Gudoudamas.
> 
> ...


Apparently you never read my posts , Tobirama said himself that he is scared by Juubito's moves speed , even when he is marked and Tobirama can use FTG he will be stabed and completely annihilated , if he appears next time behind him :
It's the fourth or fifth time I post this picture :

And that's an enough prove that :
Juubito's raw moves>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Tobirama's raw moves , even when he marked him and can use FTG , the guy is scared beeing instantly annihilated .

If you say even more that Tobirama is faster that Juubito then you not Tobirama's fan , but Tobirama's fanatic . 




> That is your fanfic which you cant back up by anything. You dont have any proof, any common sense on your side, at all.
> 
> He teleported his son in a completely different situations. Should i remind you why those situations were completely different?


No it's just logic , KCM Naruto can use his chara arm and move it to 10/15 + FTG use before Juubito change GudoDama's form ==>Minato can tagg him 10 times more and use FTG before beeing blitzed .










> Hebi Sasuke was faster, but not by far. That is your assumption.
> 
> V1 Ei was not "by far" faster than MS Sasuke. That is another assumption of yours.
> 
> As for your logic - that is laughable. And you should re-read my post there. Tobirama's clone has shown comparable reaction speed there. That's it.


No , I alraedy respond you by four manga's example :
-Lee kicking Kimimro before he blitz naruto .
-Sai used Shunshin and blocked Sasuke before he striked Naruto .
-Yamato used Shunshin and blocked Sasuke before he strike Sakura .
-Suigetsu used Shunshin and blocked Raikage's attack before he blitz Sasuke .

If I said that then I was wrong at that time .






-





> he said that after Juubito started to protect his back. Plus, he didnt know about all of Juubito's powers. How does that prove anything is beyond me.
> -And did nothing, while Tobirama could mark him. Plus, Tobirama didnt attempt to dodge him in that instance.


Instant annihilation when the ennemy is marked = He can't even compare to him in speed .



> According to your fanfic? Tobirama's raw movements, in fact, were faster than Minato's.


No , he never showed such a thing , but he showed that his moves are slower than KCM Naruto himself slower than base Minato , even Obito can evade his chakra arms without usign Kamui some times .



> And again - assumptions. Only assumptions without any proof, any common sense. I've already explained that his hair is visible from such an angle that you cant be sure if they are spiked or not, plus his hair moves as the result of his own speed, plus Madara blocked his punch, thus slowed him down momentarily.


No you can never know if his hait was V1 or V2 in that position , so you just argue bullshit as always , I aready developped many arguments but you seem to not understand , and you seem to accept that Lee is a loooooooot more powerful than V2 Raikage , yeah very logic , absurd thinking as always lol .


I will not respond you anymore , the manga is pretty clear , but because you are Tobirama's fanatic so .


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## Hachibi (Sep 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol hachibi-chan
> 
> By how much did his abilities decrease then cuz we all know hashirama >>>>spiral in every single way
> 
> So again try not to troll



Good thing that wasn't my point 

It's using SZ fight when:
-Everyone against him bar Hiruzen were out of chakra
-Motherfucking Karin did better than everyone else


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## Icegaze (Sep 28, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Good thing that wasn't my point
> 
> It's using SZ fight when:
> -Everyone against him bar Hiruzen were out of chakra
> -Motherfucking Karin did better than everyone else



Well 
Karin doing better is plot , doesn't negate the fact that A couldn't do shit to a specimen horrendously weaker than hashirama while he had backup

From what was shown he could at least use V1

An army of A would still loose to hashirama . 1000 A at that distance loose quickly


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## Ghoztly (Sep 28, 2015)

Hashirama = boot

Raikage = ant.

I know, what an analysis right?


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## StarWanderer (Oct 5, 2015)

> No , Madara has 7 Bijuu , the Gedo Mazo , Edo Tensei in his side , one indiviudal means nothing when it comes to an army . And yeah , until he fought Madara , for him Minato was never surpassed by anyone even Madara , you can never change that . Hashirama was known as the god of Shinobis while Minato was known as the Yellow flash the God-like speed .



Madara was knows as a rival of someone who's might was compared to that of Sage of Six Paths. His name only was feared all around the world to the point when all countries unitied because of fear of his name. Before fighting 5 Kage, Madara destroyed most of the Fourth Division. Yet Raikage would hold himself back against someone like Madara? No, of course not. It would have been smart to go all out from the start. Because holding back against Madara could be a suicide.

Plus, you couldnt refute what i've written before. It is clear as day that Raikage used V2 RCM against Edo Madara.

If Edo Madara can effortlessly block his V2 speed punch, then alive prime Hashirama wont have any problem avoiding his V2 speed, even from 5 meters distance, considering that slower Edo Madara reacted to his V2 punch when Ei's fist was few inches from his face.



> Apparently you never read my posts , Tobirama said himself that he is scared by Juubito's moves speed , even when he is marked and Tobirama can use FTG he will be stabed and completely annihilated , if he appears next time behind him :
> It's the fourth or fifth time I post this picture :



Read the very scan you've provided. Plus, he talked about "us". Minato would have been annihilated too if he jumped.

I am not saying that Tobirama is faster than Juubito - i am saying that his raw moves and reaction speed are faster than those of Minato.



> No it's just logic , KCM Naruto can use his chara arm and move it to 10/15 + FTG use before Juubito change GudoDama's form ==>Minato can tagg him 10 times more and use FTG before beeing blitzed .



KCM Naruto would have been killed if not for Minato saving him.

And no - Minato cant tag Juubito 10 times. Amped Minato was blitzed twice. 



> No , I alraedy respond you by four manga's example :
> -Lee kicking Kimimro before he blitz naruto .
> -Sai used Shunshin and blocked Sasuke before he striked Naruto .
> -Yamato used Shunshin and blocked Sasuke before he strike Sakura .
> ...



Tobirama also used raw move to touch Gudoudama. And it was a *shadow clone*. 



> Instant annihilation when the ennemy is marked = He can't even compare to him in speed .



As i said before - Minato would have been annihilated too if he jumped.



> No , he never showed such a thing , but he showed that his moves are slower than KCM Naruto himself slower than base Minato , even Obito can evade his chakra arms without usign Kamui some times .



KCM Naruto's raw moves and Shunshin were faster than those of base Minato. And Tobirama could mark Juubito when KCM Minato, in a close distance too, couldnt mark him. We discussed that. Tobirama demonstrated that his raw movement speed is by far faster than that of base Minato and faster than that of KCM Minato.



> No you can never know if his hait was V1 or V2 in that position , so you just argue bullshit as always , I aready developped many arguments but you seem to not understand , and you seem to accept that Lee is a loooooooot more powerful than V2 Raikage , yeah very logic , absurd thinking as always lol .
> 
> 
> I will not respond you anymore , the manga is pretty clear , but because you are Tobirama's fanatic so .



V2 right before attacking him (spiked hair, Raiton Armor thick as hell) + common sense + his own words + his Raiton Armor's thickness at the moment of the attack + his own words and behavior after that attack = yes, Ei used V2 against Madara. Plus, a bad example, since Madara had a trouble with a control over Juubi.

Dude, you have lost this debate already. Each and every of your arguements has been countered. It is over. You may not respond to me, that's your choice.


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## Altair21 (Oct 5, 2015)

Hashirama has ridiculous regeneration, so even if Ei got a hit in and I emphasis IF it would hardly even deter Hashirama. 

Hashirama stomps.


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