# Tsunade, Mei & Onoki vs Itachi



## Itachі (Feb 15, 2016)

*Location:* Onoki vs Deidara

*Distance:* 25 metres

*Mindset:* IC

*Knowledge:* Full for Itachi, Manga for Kage


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2016)

Itachi opens with a Gokakyu to distract them. Oonoki counters with Jinton and gets blindsided with curved-trajectory throwing weapons. Mei and Tsunade are immediately roasted with an Amaterasu sweep following.


EDIT: Dat location, tho... Oonoki fought Deidara above the clouds over the open sea. Oonoki is the only one here who can fly... The rest of them plummet like rocks to the water below.


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## Cognitios (Feb 15, 2016)

> Oonoki is the only one here who can fly...


Itachi summons a crow to fly on


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## Itachі (Feb 15, 2016)

Assume that they're fighting on the ground.


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## Bonly (Feb 15, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> EDIT: Dat location, tho... Oonoki fought Deidara above the clouds over the open sea. Oonoki is the only one here who can fly... The rest of them plummet like rocks to the water below.



Why you wanking Onoki Niku? Naruto was able move about in the by using clones as well as use clones to be above the cloud by jumping off of them, Itachi has Shadow clones, Crow clones(which cost less chakra) and Exploding clones not to mention that when a crow clone is destroyed it is turned by into a flock of clones which not only stopped EMS Sasuke in his tracks slowing him down but also allowed a crow with a Sharingan to use genjutsu on Naruto. 

Onoki has canonly said he doesn't like the fighting style of Deidara which is running away and attacking from afar and Onoki has canonly got up in multiply peoples grills ready to attack them.

Onoki is gonna charge at Itachi and get hit by an exploding clone leaving him off balanced while blinded by crows shortly after resulting him in getting caught in a genjutsu. Once he's caught he won't be able to use his flight jutsu thus he'll fall into the water like a rock along with Mei and Tsunade while Itachi is jumping off of clones. Match ends in Itachi's victory, not sure why you're wanking Onoki all of the sudden but you need to check yourself before you wreck yourself son.

*Edit*: God damn it OP. I take the time to write all that out and go get the links when my mouse broke so I'm stuck using the shitty pad on the lad which take me forever to do something and you go ahead and say that they are fighting on the ground(well water since they was out at sea) making that post useless. Man I'm so filled with Nikushimi all up inside of me right now that it's not even funny. Well I guess that last sentence can be taken more then one way . Though one way it can't be taken is in a sucking way, because as we all know that's too nasty


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## Nikushimi (Feb 15, 2016)

I think we can all agree that you wouldn't suck Oonoki's dick (for free).

Therefore, blowjobs are gross.

Checkmate.


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## Baroxio (Feb 16, 2016)

Onoki is the main threat here since his Jinton can go through Susano. With full knowledge that means that the old guy is going to be roasted a live via Amaterasu 5 seconds into the match. Tsunade and Mei aren't doing anything to stop that. After that, it's likely Mei's turn, then Tsunade with Totsuka.

If the knowledge conditions were switched however, this match could totally go the other way. 

With no real knowledge to assume the worst, Itachi will not use Amaterasu right off the bat, allowing Mei to blind vision with Kirigakure. Now, Itachi has great feats of acting while blind or near-blind, so he's still effective, but it's cut off some of his major offenses. From there, a Tsunade-boosted Jinton in Itachi's general direction should spell the end of him.

Of course, I'm over-simplifing things. Itachi has clones and isn't going to stand there like an idiot. He'll likely do some recon, and use his weapon manipulation tricks to their fullest. But with Tsunade there to heal people up, it's not in his favor.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

When has itachi ever taken on 3 Kage level at the same time, or even implied to be able to do so? 

It's like 50/50 1 on 1
and Onoki trashes him more often than not alone...

But 3 on 1? 

you must really hate him. 
That's what itachi is getting here...


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

At the start of the match, Itachi can launch _Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu_ to block LOS, then use his breakneck _Body Flicker_ to get behind Mei and karate chop through her torso with the same V1 / V2 _Susano'o_ hand that was capable of slicing through Nagato's _Asura Path_ body [1]. This is the same _Asura Path_ that tanked a combination Partial Transformation attack from Choji and Chōza [2] [3] and briefly impeded Kakashi's Raikiri [4] [5]. According to Naruto, the strength and speed of Nagato's Paths are increased when used by Nagato himself [6], so Itachi's feat in easily chopping through Nagato is made even more impressive. In fact, from this instance, it can be concluded that Itachi's V1 / V2 _Susano'o_ can karate chop with forces that are comparable to Raikiri. This strength is also coupled with the fact that V2 _Susano'o_ limbs can be manifested instantaneously at the cost of the _Susano'o_ rib cage forming more slowly than its usual instantaneous speed [7]. 

Itachi was able to catch B off guard [8] [9]  and then later get in B's back with his _Body Flicker_ [10] (note Killer B's lack of awareness prior to Itachi and Nagato's warnings--the  has Killer B saying "Got it!" as opposed to "I know!"). He can _easily_ replicate that feat against Mei--only this time with lethal intent instead of intent to capture--and cut her in half with _Susano'o_. Once Mei is out the picture, Itachi has to cause only the briefest of distractions with _Karasu Bunshin_, _Sharingan Genjutsu_, or _Utakata_ (Finger Genjutsu), then capitalize on the Kages' confusion from long range with _Amaterasu_. _Amaterasu_ is Itachi's best option for dispatching Tsunade and Ōnoki, as Tsunade's Herculean strength would be dangerous for Itachi to test in CQC, and both Tsunade and Ōnoki lack the speed to evade _Amaterasu_. Neither Kage will be able to see _Amaterasu_ coming with a flock of crows obstructing their respective lines of sight beforehand. The use of _Karasu Bunshin_ in particular is a feint tactic which Itachi has employed with great success on more than one occasion, and they should certainly have an impact on this match (imagine Itachi doing this or this, but with _Susano'o_ limbs or _Amaterasu_ instead).

The Kage improve their chances of winning if Tsunade summons Katsuyu quickly, but Katsuyu can be subjugated by _Sharingan Genjutsu_ or swiftly dispatched by _Totsuka no Tsurugi_, so her presence is not significant enough to throw the match in the Kages' favor.

***​
I see Itachi winning this match with high difficulty--due mostly to the immediate threat of Ōnoki and stamina strain. Full knowledge for Itachi means that he has this match in the bag, though.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

If Itachi has full knowledge then he wins, if the Kage have full knowledge then they win. They all jump back and Mei uses Water Release: Water Formation Pillar and blows Itachi, any of his clones, and/or Susanoo completely away and obscures his vision while Onoki creates rock clones to pick up both Tsunade and Mei and carry them away as he flies alongside them into the sky. Tsunade activates Byakugo no Jutsu and then supercharges Onoki and he uses a gargantuan Jinton to completely obliterate the whole battlefield while Mei proceeds to immediately use Hidden Mist Jutsu to further obscure Itachi's sight preventing him looking at them. Itachi is obliterated. If they know how dangerous Itachi is and what he is capable of they will take him down very quickly.


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 16, 2016)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi opens with a Gokakyu to distract them.


Mei stands there and does nothing right? She doesn't neutralise it with Suiton? In this location?





> Oonoki counters with Jinton and gets blindsided with curved-trajectory throwing weapons.


Or maybe Tsunade runs up to Itachi and punches him in the face. She managed to close the distance between her and Edo Madara twice so i doubt Itachi is dodging this.


> Mei and Tsunade are immediately roasted with an Amaterasu sweep following.


They are IC here remember that please.


*And Tsunade did that on nigh empty reserves.*

But yeah Itachi wins anyway because nothing? As if.



Saru said:


> The Kage improve their chances of winning if Tsunade summons Katsuyu quickly, but Katsuyu can be subjugated by _Sharingan Genjutsu_ or swiftly dispatched by _Totsuka no Tsurugi_, so her presence is not significant enough to throw the match in the Kages' favor.
> .



Sharingan Genjutsu - Partner Method
Amaterasu/Totsuka - Split body (or summon another part of Katsuyu even if that part gets sealed)


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachi opens with a Katon? Lol. That would be an extremely idiotic thing to do when he has full knowledge and he's fighting Mei Terumi. She would extinguish his fireball and swamp him with a lake of water before he had time to do shit. If he body flickers he runs straight into a flood of suiton, and then he's GG to a Jinton while his body is rag-dolling. Fortunately I don't believe Itachi is an idiot, so I don't think he'd try such a thing. 

In saying that, no matter what Itachi does he's going to eventually lose. He admitted that taking on Jiraiya alone would be a very difficult task for him, and that he might only be able to make it a draw. And he had an incredible amount of difficulty with Hebi Sasuke, who isn't much, if at all stronger than Onoki or Tsunade, and only marginally more so than Mei. He can't take on three Mid Kage levels at once, and in fact Tsunade and Onoki are top of the Mid Kage tier, if not bottom of the High Kage tier. If it were Edo Itachi things might be different, but not Alive Itachi.​​


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## IzayaOrihara (Feb 16, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi opens with a Katon? Lol*. That would be an extremely idiotic thing to do when he has full knowledge and he's fighting Mei Terumi. *She would extinguish his fireball and swamp him with a lake of water before he had time to do shit. If he body flickers he runs straight into a flood of suiton, and then he's GG to a Jinton while his body is rag-dolling. Fortunately I don't believe Itachi is an idiot, so I don't think he'd try such a thing.
> 
> In saying that, no matter what Itachi does he's going to eventually lose. *He admitted that taking on Jiraiya alone would be a very difficult task for him, and that he might only be able to make it a draw. And he had an incredible amount of difficulty with Hebi Sasuke, who isn't much, if at all stronger than Onoki or Tsunade, and only marginally more so than Mei. He can't take on three Mid Kage levels at once, and in fact Tsunade and Onoki are top of the Mid Kage tier, if not bottom of the High Kage tier. If it were Edo Itachi things might be different, but not Alive Itachi.*​​



This. My point exactly.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Itachi opens with a Katon? Lol. That would be an extremely idiotic thing to do when he has full knowledge and he's fighting Mei Terumi. She would extinguish his fireball and swamp him with a lake of water before he had time to do shit. If he body flickers he runs straight into a flood of suiton, and then he's GG to a Jinton while his body is rag-dolling. Fortunately I don't believe Itachi is an idiot, so I don't think he'd try such a thing.
> 
> In saying that, no matter what Itachi does he's going to eventually lose. He admitted that taking on Jiraiya alone would be a very difficult task for him, and that he might only be able to make it a draw. And he had an incredible amount of difficulty with Hebi Sasuke, who isn't much, if at all stronger than Onoki or Tsunade, and only marginally more so than Mei. He can't take on three Mid Kage levels at once, and in fact Tsunade and Onoki are top of the Mid Kage tier, if not bottom of the High Kage tier. If it were Edo Itachi things might be different, but not Alive Itachi.​​



Mei alone is more than enough to shut this clown's abilities with her mist jutsu. All of his Genjutsu will be useless, and he can't aim at what he can't see either. And he is not a sensor either....


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> When has itachi ever taken on 3 Kage level at the same time, or even implied to be able to do so?
> 
> It's like 50/50 1 on 1
> and Onoki trashes him more often than not alone...
> ...





Godaime Tsunade said:


> In saying that, no matter what Itachi does he's going to eventually lose. He admitted that taking on Jiraiya alone would be a very difficult task for him, and that he might only be able to make it a draw. And he had an incredible amount of difficulty with Hebi Sasuke, who isn't much, if at all stronger than Onoki or Tsunade, and only marginally more so than Mei. He can't take on three Mid Kage levels at once, and in fact Tsunade and Onoki are top of the Mid Kage tier, if not bottom of the High Kage tier. If it were Edo Itachi things might be different, but not Alive Itachi.​​



solid argument guys


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

They murder itachi with mid diff at the very most 

Even then won't call it that 

Hidden mist off the bat . Mei naturally should have silent killing or hidden mist would be a dumb tech for her to use

Mist renders most of itachi Arsenal useless . Mei points out itachi location and jinton GG


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> They murder itachi with mid diff at the very most
> 
> Even then won't call it that
> 
> ...



Do you think Mei would beat Itachi 1v1?


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Sharingan Genjutsu - Partner Method
> Amaterasu/Totsuka - Split body (or summon another part of Katsuyu even if that part gets sealed)




The partner method isn't effective against Utakata if Itachi ensnares multiple targets at once--something he's done before in canon. Even if the partner method is used against _Sharingan Genjutsu_, it would require Tsunade and Ōnoki to be near each other and physically touch one another for it work. Hence the genjutsu being a distraction.

Splitting wouldn't help Katsuyu escape Totsuka because most of Katsuyu would be sealed before it split.




Godaime Tsunade said:


> ]Itachi opens with a Katon? Lol. That would be an extremely idiotic thing to do when he has full knowledge and he's fighting Mei Terumi. She would extinguish his fireball and swamp him with a lake of water before he had time to do shit. If he body flickers he runs straight into a flood of suiton, and then he's GG to a Jinton while his body is rag-dolling. Fortunately I don't believe Itachi is an idiot, so I don't think he'd try such a thing.




_Gōkakyū no Jutsu_ is an extremely IC jutsu for Itachi to start with. The point of the Katon is to cause a distraction, not kill the enemy. If Mei were to counter with Suiton, she would be playing into Itachi's hand. It's odd that you think that Mei's Suiton is too fast and large for Itachi to dodge considering that Mei's Suiton has never hit a mobile opponent before, let alone someone as speedy as Itachi.




> In saying that, no matter what Itachi does he's going to eventually lose. He admitted that taking on Jiraiya alone would be a very difficult task for him, and that he might only be able to make it a draw.




You do realize Itachi was loyal to Konoha while he was alive... Right?




> And he had an incredible amount of difficulty with Hebi Sasuke, who isn't much, if at all stronger than Onoki or Tsunade, and only marginally more so than Mei.




You do realize Itachi lost on purpose... Right?




> He can't take on three Mid Kage levels at once, and in fact Tsunade and Onoki are top of the Mid Kage tier, if not bottom of the High Kage tier. If it were Edo Itachi things might be different, but not Alive Itachi.




You do realize Edo Tensei are brought back at even _less_ strength than they had before.... Right? Kabuto improved Edo Tensei, but they still weren't at 100% of their power in life.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> solid argument guys



Honestly, any "argument" is probably just itachi's fans trolling. 
There is no way in hell is he standing to 3 kages, that's as clear as the sun in the sky.

But anyway, as I said...

1- Mai can shut down anything itachi can do with his sharingan by using her mist jutsu.
With Boil and lava, chances are itachi is not going to survive that. Keep in mind, that pretty much
the first thing Mei did against madara, so it cannot be said it's OOC.

2- Onoki was strong enough to defeat madara's 5 clones by himself, and I don't see itachi
who's basically a downgraded version of madara doing any better.

3- Tsunade should be able to deal with him fairly well with her Summon (or without?).

And that's 1 on 1. If all three of them are together they are going to fodderstomps the living shit out of that boy.
There is no doubt about it. 



Saru said:


> You do realize Edo Tensei are brought back at even _less_ strength than they had before.... Right? Kabuto improved Edo Tensei, but they still weren't at 100% of their power in life.



 Yes they were at their full power. Itachi case was even better than he was. lol

Don't mix Oro's ET with Kabuto's.
Only the 4 Hokages were not at full power, and even then, that was only by a little bit...


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Honestly, any "argument" is probably just itachi's fans trolling.
> There is no way in hell is he standing to 3 kages, that's as clear as the sun in the sky.





> 2- Onoki was strong enough to defeat madara's 5 clones by himself, and I don't see itachi
> who's basically a downgraded version of madara doing any better.



this is not okay



> But anyway, as I said...
> 
> 1- Mai can shut down anything itachi can do with his sharingan by using her mist jutsu.
> With Boil and lava, chances are itachi is not going to survive that. Keep in mind, that pretty much
> the first thing Mei did against madara, so it cannot be said it's OOC.



this is okay


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## Complete_Ownage (Feb 16, 2016)

Lets be real here....

Itachi stands no chance of winning what's so ever. Granted he's vastly superior 1v1 but he's not taking on 3 kage alone.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> this is not okay



Why is it not? Onoki is clearly superior to itachi. That's pretty obvious. 

He can fight while flying and get himself out of any possible close-range danger.
He has the firepower to destroy anything itachi has to offer, including his Susanoo.
He is more knowledgeable and wiser than itachi, and very likely smarter than him as well.

I don't see what does itachi have on him. He was even shown to be able to break the Genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Why is it not? Onoki is clearly superior to itachi. That's pretty obvious.
> 
> He can fight while flying and get himself out of any possible close-range danger.
> He has the firepower to destroy anything itachi has to offer, including his Susanoo.
> ...



Itachi's faster, more reactive and has multiple one-shot techniques. Itachi's superior imo, Onoki's best move is Jinton and that can be avoided and he can't use it many times.

Lol at Onoki being smarter than Itachi, dude was fucking shown up by Gaara in a battle of words. 

Anyway, Onoki doing better against Madara doesn't mean that he would beat Itachi 1v1, put your Itachi hate aside for once and post without malice.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Itachi's faster, more reactive and has multiple one-shot techniques. Itachi's superior imo, Onoki's best move is Jinton and that can be avoided and he can't use it many times.
> 
> Lol at Onoki being smarter than Itachi, dude was fucking shown up by Gaara in a battle of words.



How is itachi faster than madara? 



> multiple one-shot techniques.



Jinton is not a 1 shot? And even better since it's a long-range jutsu.
Wouldn't 1 touch of Onoki finish the battle by making him unable to move like he did to Mu and Madara's clones? 



> Onoki's best move is Jinton and that can be avoided and he can't use it many times.


And itachi's moves can be avoided as well. Also, Onoki used Jinton more than itachi used his "one-shot" jutsu. 



> Lol at Onoki being smarter than Itachi, dude was fucking shown up by Gaara in a battle of words.



Not sure how does that prove anything. That "battle of word" was about "losing their selves" and whatnot, and guess what? Itachi did the exact same thing and admitted that he was wrong. So, how does that make him any better? 



> Anyway, Onoki doing better against Madara doesn't mean that he would beat Itachi 1v1, put your Itachi hate aside for once and post without malice.



That's true when you are talking about different opponents with different fighting styles. However, the thing is, Madara and itachi are the same with their power
except madara is litterally better than him in every single thing.

1- He has more chakra
2- better eyes (EMS/Rinnegan)
3- More powerful moves (See Madara's Fire jutsu compared to itachi's for example)
4- Can use more superior clones (and all of which used V3 Susanoo, and yet still got defeated)

...etc


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Jinton is not a 1 shot? And even better since it's a long-range jutsu.
> Wouldn't 1 touch of Onoki finish the battle by making him unable to move like he did to Mu and Madara's clones?




If you want to counting weight manipulation as an OHKO, that's like counting kunai to the throat as an OHKO. Actually, it's a step below that, because no damage is done.




> And itachi's moves can be avoided as well.




None of the Kage can casually avoid Amaterasu.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> How is itachi faster than madara?



Nah, he's faster than grounded Onoki. 



> Jinton is not a 1 shot? And even better since it's a long-range jutsu.
> Wouldn't 1 touch of Onoki finish the battle by making him unable to move like he did to Mu and Madara's clones



It is, never said it isn't. Thing is that Itachi has to have no knowledge on his techniques for Onoki to win that way, if Onoki had no knowledge on Itachi he'd instantly get caught in Itachi's Genjutsu and killed. 



> And itachi's moves can be avoided as well. Also, Onoki used Jinton more than itachi used his "one-shot" jutsu.



Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are harder to avoid than Jinton, a lot of the time. Amaterasu especially. When has Onoki used Jinton more than Itachi has used MS without being boosted by Tsunade?



> Not sure how does that prove anything. That "battle of word" was about "losing their selves" and whatnot, and guess what? Itachi did the exact same thing and admitted that he was wrong. So, how does that make him any better?



Itachi's still shown to be wiser though, remember that Hokage level mindset? Onoki's obviously more knowledgeable but Itachi's intelligence has been displayed as well as wanked.



> That's true when you are talking about different opponents with different fighting styles. However, the thing is, Madara and itachi are the same with their power
> except madara is litterally better than him in every single thing.
> 
> 1- He has more chakra
> ...



Dude, I'm not talking about Madara. I'm talking about Onoki.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

> [=Saru;55210166]If you want to counting weight manipulation as an OHKO, that's like counting kunai to the throat as an OHKO. Actually, it's a step below that, because no damage is done.


They indeed are. That's just tell you about how silly the argument is. Any direct hit will be dangerous. 
So, it's not like itachi has this as specialty. 




> None of the Kage can casually avoid Amaterasu.



I don't take the Amatersu argument seriously. All the Kages can use the Kawarimi jutsu.
B got rid of it with Kawarimi, and so did Sasuke.

There are trillion way to deal with Amatersu. It only works against name-less fodders. That's much
should be obvious by now. 

Also, Mei mist will make it useless anyway, as Amatersu won't be able to hit what itachi can't see.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't take the Amatersu argument seriously. All the Kages can use the Kawarimi jutsu.
> B got rid of it with Kawarimi, and so did Sasuke.
> 
> There are trillion way to deal with Amatersu. It only works against name-less fodders. That's much
> ...



Rasengan? Kawarimi. Susano'o slash? Kawarimi. Bijudama? Kawarimi.

You realise how retarded this sounds?


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Do you think Mei would beat Itachi 1v1?



No I don't get the question 

Mist or not Mei can't by pass susanoo 

Onoki can 

Hence why as a team they would win 

Silly question really


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

> [=Itachі;55210190]Nah, he's faster than grounded Onoki.


Well, good thing Onoki always fight while flying then. 


> It is, never said it isn't. Thing is that Itachi has to have no knowledge on his techniques for Onoki to win that way, if Onoki had no knowledge on Itachi he'd instantly get caught in Itachi's Genjutsu and killed.



Madara has knowlwedge of this jutsu. Did that save his 5 clones? I think not.  




> Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are harder to avoid than Jinton, a lot of the time. Amaterasu especially. When has Onoki used Jinton more than Itachi has used MS without being boosted by Tsunade?



Not really. Tsukuyomi was only used 1 time against Kakashi who was looking it at directly. The same can't be said about Onoki who fight while flying, and Tsukuyomi is a short-range jutsu, so it won't work.

Onoki was fighting Mu before fighting madara, and you can see the place by destroyed by the beams.




> Itachi's still shown to be wiser though, remember that Hokage level mindset? Onoki's obviously more knowledgeable but Itachi's intelligence has been displayed as well as wanked.



There is nothing like "Hokage-level mindset". Unless you think all the Hokages are as smart as each other which obviously not the case. What Hiruzen was talking about is itachi's perspective. The thing
the Hokage shares is saving the village as a whole. itachi looked at the village as a whole, and not only the clan. That's about it. 





> Dude, I'm not talking about Madara. I'm talking about Onoki.



What I am saying is, Onoki had to deal with someone who has the same abilities like itachi, but much superior to him. And yet, he was able to defeat 5 of his clones at the same time.

So, onoki should have an even easier time dealing with itachi who's a water-down version of madara.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Rasengan? Kawarimi. Susano'o slash? Kawarimi. Bijudama? Kawarimi.
> 
> You realise how retarded this sounds?



It does not matter how retarded you think it sounds. It was indeed used against Amatersu several times. Unlike your other examples which have greater AoE distraction. 

The point is,  Amatersu is not as a big of a deal as itachi's fans would like to believe...
And it's clearly not meant to be seen as a jutsu capable of dealing with Kage-level opponent. 
As we have already seen many different Kage dealing with it easily.


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> They indeed are. That's just tell you about how silly the argument is. Any direct hit will be dangerous.
> So, it's not like itachi has this as specialty.
> 
> 
> ...


B used a special type in tandem with Gyuki's tentacle and Sasuke did it with Orochimaru's unique type of Kawarimi. But yeah I agree Amaterasu has never ever worked on top-tiers at any point in the series. Killer B, Sasuke, Naruto, A, Gaara, Nagato, Jiraiya, and Obito have all shown ways of combating and several others probably can too but unfortunately most characters do not have the abilities to combat it. That is why it's such an important factor. But like I said, if the Kage have full knowledge too then they take Itachi out quickly.


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## Kai (Feb 16, 2016)

Mei and Onoki are enough to beat Itachi with manga knowledge.

Mei snuffs Itachi's greatest asset to his powers, his visual targeting, with the Hidden Mist jutsu. As long as the Kage are aware of Itachi's positioning, Onoki sweeps Itachi's area with Jinton or drops a large cube in Itachi's direction. Without the ability to see, Itachi's senses are dulled and physical defenses are futile against Dust Release. Onoki can also offer Mei greater coverage by giving her the ability to fly.

Tsunade's ability to strengthen techniques with Byakugo makes this an overkill.


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> They indeed are. That's just tell you about how silly the argument is. *Any direct hit will be dangerous.
> So, it's not like itachi has this as specialty. *
> 
> I don't take the Amatersu argument seriously. *All the Kages can use the Kawarimi jutsu.*
> ...




 


You just lost all credibility with Itachi threads, bro. 




> Also, Mei mist will make it useless anyway, as Amatersu won't be able to hit what itachi can't see.




Hidden Mist is a problem, but Mei has to release the mist at the start of the match and before Itachi can do anything. She would likely need a distraction (like she had against Madara, with the help of the Alliance) to use that jutsu.


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> B used a special type in tandem with Gyuki's tentacle and Sasuke did it with Orochimaru's unique type of Kawarimi. But yeah I agree Amaterasu has never ever worked on top-tiers at any point in the series. Killer B, Sasuke, Naruto, A, Nagato, and Obito have all shown ways of combating it but unfortunately most characters do not have the abilities to combat it. That is why it's such an important factor. But like I said, if the Kage have full knowledge too then they take Itachi out quickly.



I don't see this as a good argument. 
There are different Kawarimis, but they are Kawarimis nonetheless. 

It's like you are trying to say if someone use Water clones, Shadow clones, Wooden Clones....etc etc
those clones won't get what the real one have of abilities because the named differ. Yes, there is a tiny different (if they disappear, rocks, water...etc appear) but they function in the exact same way.


----------



## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> It does not matter how retarded you think it sounds. It was indeed used against Amatersu several times. Unlike your other examples which have greater AoE distraction.
> 
> The point is,  Amatersu is not as a big of a deal as itachi's fans would like to believe...
> And it's clearly not meant to be seen as a jutsu capable of dealing with Kage-level opponent.
> As we have already seen many different Kage dealing with it easily.



Why was Obito freaking out about Amaterasu when he could just use Kawarimi? Why would anyone even care about it if they could use Kawarimi? When you bring this up it shows how slanted you are, Itachi's opponents are always going to use Kawarimi against Amaterasu but it like never comes up in any other argument...


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

@hussain oro kawarimi and bee's do not remotely function the same way as the basic 

For one both cost a lot more chakra and both can't be easily seen through 

Sasuke went through this in detail . If it was the exact same as basic kawarimi why did Sasuke use up his reserves using a special type of kawarimi 

Why did bee ? Considering even Hachibi said BM mode consumed more chakra than bee needed for the fight


----------



## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> You just lost all credibility with Itachi threads, bro.



Nice try of trying to avoid giving proof, but you will have to work harder. 

but going with your trolling... 

about this


> It only works against name-less fodders.



That fodder jutsu only worked with Zetsu-clones, and Juubi-clones. 

Did it work against Gaara? No
B? No
Sasuke? No
Kabuto? No
Narudo? No
Minato? No
Obito (masked)? No
Danzo? No
JJ Obito? No
Kaguya? No
Madara? No
Juubi? No

It only caused A's arm when HE did it Intentionally.  

Even Karin and the Samuri fodder survived it. lol


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

Don't think Minato ever had to deal with Amaterasu.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Did it work against Gaara? No
> B? No
> Sasuke? No
> Kabuto? No
> ...



Those opponents actually having a meanas of avoiding it. Against Sasuke Itachi aimed for the wing and Bee was in Biju form when he was lit up.

When did Minato avoid Amaterasu?


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Why was Obito freaking out about Amaterasu when he could just use Kawarimi? Why would anyone even care about it if they could use Kawarimi? When you bring this up it shows how slanted you are, Itachi's opponents are always going to use Kawarimi against Amaterasu but it like never comes up in any other argument...



Obito was surprised, and he STILL got rid of it easily. lol 



> Amaterasu but it like never comes up in any other argument



What are itachi's fans argument that it will work against Kage-level opponent exactly?
That it worked against Zetsu clones?


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain is right 

Amaterasu is so fodder kaguya refused jumping to an entire dimension because of it 

That fodder dimension threatening technique 

These guys can deal with it so they win . But it's abit silly when Hussain decides to be a child over it . Not 1 shotting this team


----------



## Kai (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't see this as a good argument.
> There are different Kawarimis, but they are Kawarimis nonetheless.
> 
> It's like you are trying to say if someone use Water clones, Shadow clones, Wooden Clones....etc etc
> those clones won't get what the real one have of abilities because the named differ. Yes, there is a tiny different (if they disappear, rocks, water...etc appear) but they function in the exact same way.


The substitutions used to avoid a high level technique like Amaterasu were high cost substitutions.

Sasuke used Orochimaru's substitution, which was stated to be difficult to detect and drained a large amount of his chakra. One can assume that since Itachi says Oro's substitution is difficult to detect, the common academy level substitution isn't a challenge to notice by the trained eye, much like academy level clones aren't difficult to see through by the trained eye.
B used Gyuki's substitution, one which Gyuki scolded B for having to risk several limbs so that he could escape.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Those opponents actually having a meanas of avoiding it. Against Sasuke Itachi aimed for the wing and Bee was in Biju form when he was lit up.
> 
> When did Minato avoid Amaterasu?



And yet they both got rid of it after a direct hit. 

You are assuming characters have no means of doing so, when they weren't in such a scenario...

Isn't Mei's mist a mean to it? Itachi still needs to look at her.
We have seen Tsunade reflecting Madara's fire attack, right? 
And her legendary summon.  

Onoki can simply stay flying at the very least, or use clones 



Isaiah13000 said:


> Don't think Minato ever had to deal with Amaterasu.





And powered up by FRS.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Obito was surprised, and he STILL got rid of it easily. lol
> 
> What are itachi's fans argument that it will work against Kage-level opponent exactly?
> That it worked against Zetsu clones?



He saw blood coming out of Sasuke's eye and MS beforehand and still freaked out when he got hit by it. Why didn't he use Kawarimi then?

There are no legitimate arguments that all characters will dodge Amaterasu, the Kawarimi argument is frankly fucking moronic. Come up with a legitimate argument instead of pretending like all characters will use Kawarimi when characters have been hit by lethal things before and haven't used Kawarimi.


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## Trojan (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Hussain is right
> 
> Amaterasu is so fodder kaguya refused jumping to an entire dimension because of it
> 
> ...



> implying Kaguya was fearing Amatersu. 


She got a direct hit, and still trashed it.


----------



## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Did it work against Gaara? No




That was Enton. Go reread the fight.




> B? No




Do the Kage here have bijuu substitution? No, so this isn't relevant to the discussion.




> Sasuke?




Was Itachi trying to kill Sasuke? No, so this isn't relevant to the discussion. Do you really think Kishi would have Amaterasu work on Sasuke for him to die? 




> Kabuto? No




What in the world are you even talking about? They didn't even attempt Amaterasu because the entire point of that fight was to capture him and force him to undo Edo Tensei. They needed to keep him alive. That was a plot point.






> Narudo? No




Do the Kage have bijuu cloaks? No, so it's not relevant to this discussion.




> Minato? No




Are the Kage Minato? No.




> Obito (masked)? No




Do the Kage have Izanagi? No.




> Danzo? No




Same as above.




> JJ Obito? No
> Kaguya? No
> Madara? No
> Juubi? No










> It only caused A's arm when HE did it Intentionally.




That was Enton, and A is one of the few characters who can evade it with movement speed anyway--movement speed that the Kage here don't have, so I'm not sure why on earth you brought this up.



> Even Karin and the Samuri fodder survived it. lol




Amaterasu takes time to burn. That doesn't matter since once the flames consume the target, they're stuck to them. Or Itachi could just, you know, Amaterasu his targets' faces.

Now, how do the Kage deal with Amaterasu exactly?


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

Alright, that may be true. But Amaterasu is really a non-factor here, what people should be discussing is how does Itachi deal with Mei's enormous one hand seal Suiton that blows him and his susanoo away while obscuring his vision. Followed up by a Tsunade's Byakugo-empowered Jinton from Onoki large and powerful enough to wipe out Madara's Perfect Susanoo, and that was while they were all severely weakened and exhausted lol. Imagine what they can do at full power with knowledge of Itachi's lethal abilities.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> > implying Kaguya was fearing Amatersu.
> 
> 
> She got a direct hit, and still trashed it.



I've never seen that panel 

What chapter 

Do tell


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> And yet they both got rid of it after a direct hit.
> 
> You are assuming characters have no means of doing so, when they weren't in such a scenario...
> 
> ...



With Orochimaru's Kawarimi, if he was hit in the face then he wouldn't have had that chance. Tell me why Sasuke chose to use Orochimaru's Chakra heavy Kawarimi when he could just use the normal Kawarimi though, ah well, Sasuke's probably just retarded and used it for fun. Bee's Kawarimi was also no normal Kawarimi.

I'm not assuming anything, that award goes to you.

That's preventing Amaterasu, not a direct counter.

You cannot be serious about the Tsunade thing, that's retarded scaling. What's Tsunade's gonna do with Katsuyu? She's gonna hide in Katsuyu the entire fight?

Not a direct counter, similar to the Mei example.


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## Kai (Feb 16, 2016)

Hussain said:


> > implying Kaguya was fearing Amatersu.
> 
> 
> She got a direct hit, and still trashed it.


>Made Kaguya think twice about switching to the ice dimension. 



*Won't work. Indra's successor has Amaterasu.*


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

A lot of people here are mentioning Mei's Kirigakure no Jutsu being a large factor in Itachi's defeat, with full knowledge why can't Itachi just Amaterasu Mei right off the bat? He knows that he's facing 3 Kage so he's not going to hold back.


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> A lot of people here are mentioning Mei's Kirigakure no Jutsu being a large factor in Itachi's defeat, with full knowledge why can't Itachi just Amaterasu Mei right off the bat? He knows that he's facing 3 Kage so he's not going to hold back.




Amaterasu, despite how fast and deadly it is, is not something Itachi can use recklessly right off the bat. The Kage should all have knowledge on that jutsu given that _C_ of all people somehow had intel on it. If they see Itachi's eye starting to bleed, they can muster some sort of defense (Doton, Kuchiyose with Katsuyu, etc.). If Itachi uses some sort of distraction before using Amaterasu, his chances of landing it go up considerably.

Just my 2 cents.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> Amaterasu, despite how fast and deadly it is, is not something Itachi can use recklessly right off the bat. The Kage should all have knowledge on that jutsu given that _C_ of all people somehow had intel on it. If they see Itachi's eye starting to bleed, they can muster some sort of defense (Doton, Kuchiyose with Katsuyu, etc.). If Itachi uses some sort of distraction before using Amaterasu, his chances of landing it go up considerably.
> 
> Just my 2 cents.



Yeah, I didn't mean _right away_, sorry. They can avoid it from 25 metres but I think that Itachi's more likely to kill Mei with Amaterasu if he tried than I think Mei is to throw up Kirigakure no Jutsu.


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yeah, I didn't mean _right away_, sorry. They can avoid it from 25 metres but I think that Itachi's more likely to kill Mei with Amaterasu if he tried than I think Mei is to throw up Kirigakure no Jutsu.




I agree with you on that point. The Kage have no way to evade Amaterasu. In fact, if Itachi opens with Goukakyuu and Mei uses Suiton, he can use Amaterasu and potentially burn her while her LOS is blocked.



Itachi can keep his eye open instead of closing it (to protect Sasuke's face) and roast her.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

itachi using amaterasu off the bat puts him in a predicament he would rather not be in off the bat

he could use it quickly in the fight, to stop hidden mist

but then he going to suffer side effects from amaterasu. during that point nothing stops onoki from replying to itachi off the bat amaterasu against Mei with jinton which effectively kills itachi as I do not believe

he can summon a level of susanoo which can tank jinton while suffering backlash from amaterasu

an initial amaterasu has also been prompted twice in the manga. So they see blood, and tell attack during its charge time like bee and sasuke did 

by then hidden mist could be up 

so anyway you look at it. itacih isn't winning here


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> itachi using amaterasu off the bat puts him in a predicament he would rather not be in off the bat
> 
> he could use it quickly in the fight, to stop hidden mist
> 
> ...



No level of Susano'o tanks Jinton, Susano'o is just Chakra.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

well there you go 

itachi looses even quicker 

though I disagree that jinton can by pass any form of defence which is what you seem to be implying


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> but then he going to suffer side effects from amaterasu. during that point nothing stops onoki from replying to itachi off the bat amaterasu against Mei with jinton which effectively kills itachi




What side effects are you talking about? Itachi doesn't become immobilized after using Amaterasu.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> What side effects are you talking about? Itachi doesn't become immobilized after using Amaterasu.



starts panting quite heavily and becomes visibly slower. Same way he did after using tskuyomi, he kneeled to the ground 

amaterasu has the same draw backs 

itachi certainly doesn't have the physical speed to move out of jinton AoE, so unless he using susanoo in the specific situation discussed he just gets himself killed after killing mei with amaterasu


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> starts panting quite heavily and becomes visibly slower. Same way he did after using tskuyomi, he kneeled to the ground
> 
> amaterasu has the same draw backs







Does that look like kneeling to you? Itachi did not become "visibly slower" after using Amaterasu in that instance. It's not like Itachi has to take a knee after one shot of Amaterasu.




> itachi certainly doesn't have the physical speed to move out of jinton AoE, so unless he using susanoo in the specific situation discussed he just gets himself killed after killing mei with amaterasu




So no one can dodge Jinton now?




			
				OP said:
			
		

> Distance: 25 metres




More than enough space for Itachi to Body Flicker out of Jinton's range and behind Tsunade and/or Ōnoki.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> Does that look like kneeling to you? Itachi did not become "visibly slower" after using Amaterasu in that instance. It's not like Itachi has to take a knee after one shot of Amaterasu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



saru read the sasuke vs itachi fight. I do not need to post scans to counter the one you just posted

though in that scan itachi was fleeing the scene due to overusing his MS. so it equates to the same thing 

itachi isn't no one, silly argument. 

I am saying he doesn't have the physical speed to dodge it. simple as that...

flower tree world was well above 25m in AoE jinton busted that in a panel. this itachi flickering behind onoki and the rest is hilarious, getting behind bee expecting at countering it doesn't suddenly equate to doing that to onoki to avoid jinton

esp after using MS which is taxing for itachi and sasuke. especially using them back to back.. MS sasuke who has shown far more stamina than itachi using V1 susanoo and amaterasu basically knelt to the ground and even obito said he is overdoing it

MS aint something one can use back to back. never has without said MS user dropping to the ground quickly


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> saru read the sasuke vs itachi fight. I do not need to post scans to counter the one you just posted
> 
> though in that scan itachi was fleeing the scene due to overusing his MS. so it equates to the same thing




That was after having used it three times as opposed to the one time we're talking about.




> itachi isn't no one, silly argument.
> 
> I am saying he doesn't have the physical speed to dodge it. simple as that...




Who's the slowest person that you think can evade Jinton? Mind you, Itachi has Bunshin as well.




> flower tree world was well above 25m in AoE jinton busted that in a panel. this itachi flickering behind onoki and the rest is hilarious, getting behind bee expecting at countering it doesn't suddenly equate to doing that to onoki to avoid jinton
> 
> esp after using MS which is taxing for itachi and sasuke. especially using them back to back.. MS sasuke who has shown far more stamina than itachi using V1 susanoo and amaterasu basically knelt to the ground and even obito said he is overdoing it
> 
> MS aint something one can use back to back. never has without said MS user dropping to the ground quickly




No one said anything about back to back.


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## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

> Saru said:
> 
> 
> > That was after having used it three times as opposed to the one time we're talking about.
> ...


----------



## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> that was also in part 1. where he seemed to have better eye sight. compare that to when he fought sasuke the guy was already half dead after 1 use




Why would you assume Itachi to be deathbed Itachi as opposed to his healthier self? I'm assuming that Itachi, Tsunade, Mei, and Ōnoki are all in the best possible condition.




> itachi isn't splitting his chakra pool after using amaterasu. please attempt understanding this situatin deals specifically wth itachi having used MS to 1 shot Mei in this battle.
> 
> so again your question doesn't make a lot of sense as far as the situation I believed we were discussing




You didn't answer the question.




> I am saying if he uses 1 amaterasu. he isn't going to be following up with another MS technique without putting himself massively at risk againt multiple enemies here




I'm saying he doesn't need to.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Itachi is as he was during his battle with Sasuke.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 16, 2016)

the kages probably win. mei can cover the battlefield with mist to block LOS for amaterasu. 

onoki can weigh down itachis susano like he did with madaras clones. tsunade can either supercharge jinton which would completely engulf itachis susano and obliterate him along with it, or onoki can do what he did with Ei and increase tsunades weight when she gets close to susano in order to increase her power and smash it.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> Why would you assume Itachi to be deathbed Itachi as opposed to his healthier self? I'm assuming that Itachi, Tsunade, Mei, and Ōnoki are all in the best possible condition.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Itachi known condition where he has had his actual battle was against sasuke hence why I refer to that

using feats where he had the option of running away and wasn't in an actual battle condition. seems odd to me

regardless he is going to need to use MS constantly as his base skills simply aren't enough to put these guys down. 

constant MS usage= he kills himself 

itachi don't have the feats to physically avoided jinton. who can dodge it is irrelevant to the thread. 


itachi who it will be used against here cant physically dodge it. after he has weakened himself by using MS. 

no healthier version of itachi can be assumed to have more stamina or deal with MS drawbacks better than sasuke did against danzo. and sasuke could hardly keep using his techniques without some rest time in between


----------



## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Itachi known condition where he has had his actual battle was against sasuke hence why I refer to that
> 
> using feats where he had the option of running away and wasn't in an actual battle condition. seems odd to me
> 
> regardless he is going to need to use MS constantly as his base skills simply aren't enough to put these guys down.




If he can take out Mei with Amaterasu, why would he be using MS "constantly" to deal with Tsunade and Ōnoki? Using Susano'o against Ōnoki is futile in the first place, and he should be capable of evading Tsunade and Ōnoki. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are one shots. There's no need to "constantly" or repeatedly use those techniques to take someone out.




> itachi don't have the feats to physically avoided jinton. who can dodge it is irrelevant to the thread.




The minimum speed required to evade Ōnoki's Jinton is irrelevant in a thread involving Ōnoki? You still haven't answered the question.




> itachi who it will be used against here cant physically dodge it. after he has weakened himself by using MS.




If this was deathbed Itachi, maybe. But Part 1 Itachi? There is zero panel evidence that Itachi moves slower after using Amaterasu.




> no healthier version of itachi can be assumed to have more stamina *or deal with MS drawbacks better than sasuke did against danzo*. and sasuke could hardly keep using his techniques without some rest time in between




Sasuke was using the Mangekyou for the first time, and he was still getting used to the side effects, so their respective recoil is in no way comparable.



> Itachi is as he was during his battle with Sasuke.




If that's the case, he'll probably wind up losing what with him having double vision after using the Mangekyou and coughing up blood.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

> Saru said:
> 
> 
> > If he can take out Mei with Amaterasu, why would he be using MS "constantly" to deal with Tsunade and Ōnoki? Using Susano'o against Ōnoki is futile in the first place, and he should be capable of evading Tsunade and Ōnoki. Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu are one shots. There's no need to "constantly" or repeatedly use those techniques to take someone out.
> ...


----------



## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> or uses it on what he thinks is onoki and it turns out to be a clone. he cant tell clones from the original, so it aint as clear cut. he also sure as hell cant hold susanoo and use any other MS jutsu while keeping susanoo up. Even sasuke couldn't maintain susanoo while using amaterasu




And what stops Itachi or his clones from taking out Onoki's clones with kenjutsu? Ōnoki's clones with Jinton usage are going to run out of juice a lot quicker than Itachi's clones if Itachi's clones are only using crows, shuriken, kunai, and Katon to get the job done. The more Ōnoki uses Jinton to counter those tactics, the more worn out his clones get. Itachi's stamina may be average, but his clones are going to be using tactics that require far less chakra. It's not like Ōnoki has Tajū Iwa Bunshin that he can use to switch places with. He can only make a few at a time. Why would Itachi have trouble keeping track of Ōnoki when he can put eyes on him and Tsunade with his clones as well? That train of thought makes no sense.




> block LoS. crush itachi who has zero durability. unless you implying itachi kicks it back with his super uchiha kick.
> 
> itachi without MS is very easily outclassed. He cant even deal with said golem without MS. so forcing itachi into MS is a feat i would say.




Itachi doesn't need to engage Ōnoki's slow golem at all. It's a waste of chakra for Ōnoki, really. Itachi sidesteps it and closes in or attacks from afar.




> We have already seen power wise little onoki making his rck fist super heavy 1 shotted the clam. Making the golem fist super heavy before an attack would sure as hell paste itachi




Ōnoki is too slow to hit Itachi with that particular jutsu.




> scans please. i don't remember his hands being crossed when that happened. he was fighting the alliance, the ground beneath his feat shot up, catching him off guard and he needed susanoo to defend himself




My bad--he didn't have his arms crossed at that point, but he didn't attempt to get out the way either, and he was also distracted by an entire unit of the Alliance. There's no Alliance in this thread.




> good thing she got assistance here




Not if Mei's dead. Tsunade can't distract Itachi and attack him from above at the same time. But Itachi can distract Tsunade and attack her at the same time with crows.




> being super weighted might. i don't know...he wont move with susanoo




Weight manipulation would shatter Susano'o, but what's stopping Itachi from fighting back with the limbs? Or going V4 and knocking Tsunade and Ōnoki aside (like he did to Naruto) so that he can stab Tsunade with Totsuka?




> anyone faster than itachi




So Ōnoki can move his hands faster than Itachi can Body Flicker? Sounds legit. Ōnoki's Jinton has no speed hype. At all. A forest can't move. I'm not saying that Ōnoki's Jinton is slow by any means, but it doesn't have the feats or hype to suggest that it can take out someone with Itachi's movement speed as casually as you suggest.




> agreed. and onoki has the same to interrupt amaterasu. unlike itachi onoki got a team backing him up here. or is it only jinton which can be interrupted in ur fan fic?




Except Amaterasu can be fired in bursts after the chakra has been built up, so Amaterasu has no activation lag unlike Ōnoki's Jinton, which has to be shaped to the desired geometry in Ōnoki's hands before firing. Amaterasu also travels faster than Jinton does, so checkmate on that front.




> horribly unlikely seeing sasuke and killer bee had no issues interrupting amaterasu. despite sasuke planning for amaterasu to happen. if he kept the pressure up itachi may not even have pulled it off




Why are you bringing up Itachi's fight with Hebi Sasuke? What part of "If Itachi was serious you'd be dead" is not clear? Itachi could've killed Sasuke multiple times with Amaterasu. Killer B didn't interrupt anything, and regardless the distance between B and Sasuke was much, _much_ further than the starting distance in the OP.




> if you believe so. everything implies he would....
> 
> i don't see how these guys who all separately dealth with 5 susanoo clones which by right are at the very least at itachi level would somehow in a 3 vs 1 loose
> 
> they each fought 5 V3 susanoo for hours. itachi cant even use susanoo for 5 mins




Madara was fooling around with Gokage. When he got serious he blitzed SM Naruto. Do you think the Gokage have better reaction speed than SM Naruto? Do you think Madara wouldn't be able to blitz any of the Gokage bar A with his Body Flicker? Explain that feat. Using Susano'o is also slower than Itachi's movement speed to begin with. Unless you think Itachi would be unable to avoid Madara's Susano'o sword swings the same way Mei was somehow able to.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 16, 2016)

Saru said:


> And what stops Itachi or his clones from taking out Onoki's clones with kenjutsu? Ōnoki's clones with Jinton usage are going to run out of juice a lot quicker than Itachi's clones if Itachi's clones are only using crows, shuriken, kunai, and Katon to get the job done. The more Ōnoki uses Jinton to counter those tactics, the more worn out his clones get. Itachi's stamina may be average, but his clones are going to be using tactics that require far less chakra. It's not like Ōnoki has Tajū Iwa Bunshin that he can use to switch places with. He can only make a few at a time. Why would Itachi have trouble keeping track of Ōnoki when he can put eyes on him and Tsunade with his clones as well? That train of thought makes no sense.




is there any proof itachi clones can tae out onoki clones? onoki clones don't need to use jinton, never implied they would. what job done? who says that's enough to defeat onoki clones, who can change the battlefield to suit them. use heavy weighted attacks to beat itachi clones in cqc. use rock golems and possibly giant rock golems. Itachi Non MS skills are not superior in anyway to onoki non jinton skill set. Onoki can use 5 clones at a time. itach certainly doesn't use more than one clone at a time, nor can he. 

itachi can have 100 eyes on onoki he still wont be able to tell which is a clone or not. I mean bloody kaguya couldn't even tell clone frm the original. only madara for some reason could. 

Onoki could simply attempt using jinton with a clone and have itachi immediately believing that's the original. Which would have itachi focus his attention on a specific clone while the real one attempts a blind side. itachi clones sure as hell cant use MS. so the real itachi will be found out

feinting works both ways. onoki who can use more clones can simply feint more often. 




> Itachi doesn't need to engage Ōnoki's slow golem at all. It's a waste of chakra for Ōnoki, really. Itachi sidesteps it and closes in or attacks from afar.



lol since when was the golem slow. any feats that indicate its slow? itachi hasn't shown much footspeed to imply golem its slow. not like madara side stepped it

love the fan fic. we know madara>>>>>>>itachi in basically every department and he didn't side step it. 

attacks from afar with what? if u say MS techniques. then u proving my point. with anything else, it would be comically ineffective






> Ōnoki is too slow to hit Itachi with that particular jutsu.



good thing he can use clones more freely than itachi can. and use things like doton underground techs to rob itachi of his footpseed





> My bad--he didn't have his arms crossed at that point, but he didn't attempt to get out the way either, and he was also distracted by an entire unit of the Alliance. There's no Alliance in this thread.



stopped at the first few words. the rest sounded like excuses. he didn't know he had to. he looks down he is moved up so quick, Naruto is already above him with rasengan. he could not get out of the way 





> Not if Mei's dead. Tsunade can't distract Itachi and attack him from above at the same time. But Itachi can distract Tsunade and attack her at the same time with crows.



onoki clones can distract it. onoki again can use clones with so much more ease than itachi can. itachi uses anything that isn't a crow clone and he cuts his very limited chakra pool in half




> Weight manipulation would shatter Susano'o, but what's stopping Itachi from fighting back with the limbs? Or going V4 and knocking Tsunade and Ōnoki aside (like he did to Naruto) so that he can stab Tsunade with Totsuka?



because you just said it would shatter it. what limbs when its shattered. yes he could upgrade to V4 and knock tsunade aside 

yes then he stabs tsunade. in that time frame jinton is charging up and aimed at him. he dies right after that. 





> So Ōnoki can move his hands faster than Itachi can Body Flicker? Sounds legit. Ōnoki's Jinton has no speed hype. At all. A forest can't move. I'm not saying that Ōnoki's Jinton is slow by any means, but it doesn't have the feats or hype to suggest that it can take out someone with Itachi's movement speed as casually as you suggest.




lol of course he can. itachi has zero speed feats to suggest he can flicker faster than onoki can move his hands. 

what movement speed. itachi has hardly done much in terms of movement speed. hand seal speed and jutsu execution yes no doubt. itachi movement speed has no hype either




> Except Amaterasu can be fired in bursts after the chakra has been built up, so Amaterasu has no activation lag unlike Ōnoki's Jinton, which has to be shaped to the desired geometry in Ōnoki's hands before firing. Amaterasu also travels faster than Jinton does, so checkmate on that front.



agreed. however during amaterasu charge up, in a 3 vs 1 situation itachi gets gang rapped considering he will be limited to base skills till that point

not like he can be charging up ama while using his other MS skill. So even an amaterasu off the bat isn't happening. considering the charge up time is more than enough for hidden mist to be up. 




> Why are you bringing up Itachi's fight with Hebi Sasuke? What part of "If Itachi was serious you'd be dead" is not clear? Itachi could've killed Sasuke multiple times with Amaterasu. Killer B didn't interrupt anything, and regardless the distance between B and Sasuke was much, _much_ further than the starting distance in the OP.



a serious itachi could mean susanoo off the bat. it doesn't imply his other skills were held back. or tskuyomi was magically weaker because u want it to be. itachi could not have killed sasuke with amaterasu. oral rebirth shits on amaterasu casually 

killer bee did interrupt it. nagato had to use ST, itachi didn't even attempt to move there. 

if bee and sasuke were further away doesn't it make it even easier for these guys to interrupt it?






> Madara was fooling around with Gokage. When he got serious he blitzed SM Naruto. Do you think the Gokage have better reaction speed than SM Naruto? Do you think Madara wouldn't be able to blitz any of the Gokage bar A with his Body Flicker? Explain that feat. Using Susano'o is also slower than Itachi's movement speed to begin with. Unless you think Itachi would be unable to avoid Madara's Susano'o sword swings the same way Mei was somehow able to.



fooling around madara still>>>>>>>>itachi

considering hours of V3 susanoo easily exceeds all itachi can do 

itachi movement got zero feats or hype for u to say itach is faster than madara clones. 

itachi could avoid them however he would be getting bullied as they were


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## Isaiah13000 (Feb 16, 2016)

If Mei opens up with Suiton: Suijinchu then Itachi has no counter. Mei can easily literally flood the entire area in a second with a tsunami of water that would blow Itachi completely away like a rag-doll. If Itachi attempted to use Body Flicker to get behind them he'd just get hit by Mei's Suijinchu in the process. He cannot just look at Mei and use Amaterasu before she can blow him, any of his clones, and his whole susanoo away with extreme ease just by using one basic hand seal. 

Once Itachi is hit, Tsunade and Onoki work together to create a gargantuan Jinton to wipe him off the map and Itachi has no counter at all. What makes you think any of them are even going to make eye contact with him at all? It's completely foolish and unnecessary. Or that Itachi will somehow be able to Body Flicker behind them before they can even do anything? One Hand Seal > Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, and Susanoo's activation speed.


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## Saru (Feb 16, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> is there any proof itachi clones can tae out onoki clones? onoki clones don't need to use jinton, never implied they would. what job done? who says that's enough to defeat onoki clones, who can change the battlefield to suit them. use heavy weighted attacks to beat itachi clones in cqc. use rock golems and *possibly giant rock golems*. Itachi Non MS skills are not superior in anyway to onoki non jinton skill set. Onoki can use 5 clones at a time. itach certainly doesn't use more than one clone at a time, nor can he.




Itachi doesn't need to use MS to take out Ōnoki's clones. Itachi is faster than Ōnoki and has superior kenjutsu skills. Ōnoki has no kenjutsu skills at all. Itachi's shurikenjutsu is so fast that Sasuke needed prep and extra shuriken to keep up with him, and he still lost that exchange considering that Itachi made a Bunshin and switched places with it in front of his face. Ōnoki countering Itachi's shurikenjutsu with Doton uses far more chakra than shuriken jutsu.




> itachi can have 100 eyes on onoki he still wont be able to tell which is a clone or not. I mean bloody kaguya couldn't even tell clone frm the original. only madara for some reason could.




What are you talking about? Ōnoki can only make a few clones. He's not at Naruto's level of Bunshin production, so he can't deceive the enemy as easily with his Bunshin.




> Onoki could simply attempt using jinton with a clone and have itachi immediately believing that's the original




Itachi's smarter than Ōnoki, so that's not going to happen (especially since Itachi can use clones too), and using Jinton wouldn't make Itachi jump to conclusions. Itachi would never see Ōnoki preparing Jinton, freak out, and get caught off guard like some scrub. This is Itachi we're talking about here, not Part 1 Sakura.



> Which would have itachi focus his attention on a specific clone while the real one attempts a blind side.




What are you talking about? Itachi's clones are autonomous. They don't need guidance from Itachi to dodge Ōnoki's attacks.




> itachi clones sure as hell cant use MS. so the real itachi will be found out




Nobody said anything about Itachi or his clones using MS. His Mangekyou techniques are _one-shots_, and when he uses them, he will do so in an effective manner and _one-shot_ someone on the other team with each use.




> feinting works both ways. onoki who can use more clones can simply feint more often.




Ōnoki could only make six clones. 

*On his deathbed, Itachi was able to use:*

3 x Karasu Clone
3 x Sharingan Genjutsu
1 x Tsukuyomi
2 x Katon Gokyaku
1 x normal Amaterasu
1 x Amaterasu (sustained for 3-5 bursts)
v4 Susano'o (for quite a few minutes/V3 after coughing up blood)
1 x Tensha Fuin Amaterasu
Credit to Strat for compiling that list.

Based on that list, Itachi should not have an issue making Bunshin to fight Ōnoki's Iwa Bunshin, especially if he's in good condition. Again, Itachi's arsenal is deadly without having to utilize chakra unlike Ōnoki's arsenal, so Ōnoki would likely wear out more quickly in a battle of Bunshin.




> lol since when was the golem slow. any feats that indicate its slow? itachi hasn't shown much footspeed to imply golem its slow. not like madara side stepped it




See, the way burden of proof works is that you have to provide evidence of Ōnoki's golem having speed anywhere near Itachi's ballpark. When you can show me a panel of Ōnoki's golem getting in B's blind spot with sheer movement speed, then I'll consider it a threat worth discussing more in depth.



> attacks from afar with what? if u say MS techniques. then u proving my point. with anything else, it would be comically ineffective




Katon, Suiton, kenjutsu, and genjutsu. Itachi has plenty to work with and put Ōnoki on the defensive.



> good thing he can use clones more freely than itachi can. and use things like *doton underground techs* to rob itachi of his footpseed




What are you talking about? Hiding Like a Mole Technique? Post some panels of Ōnoki using that jutsu. It's ironic that you cry fanfic.




> stopped at the first few words. the rest sounded like excuses. he didn't know he had to. he looks down he is moved up so quick, Naruto is already above him with rasengan. he could not get out of the way




Ignorance is bliss.




> onoki clones can distract it. onoki again can use clones with so much more ease than itachi can. itachi uses anything that isn't a crow clone and he cuts his very limited chakra pool in half




Itachi's clones can distract Ōnoki's clones. Especially since Itachi's clones explode or disperse into crows which obstruct LOS when _poofed_.




> because you just said it would shatter it. what limbs when its shattered.




She can't shatter the ribcage and the limbs at the same time. That's physically not possible.



> yes he could upgrade to V4 and knock tsunade aside




Agreed.



> yes then he stabs tsunade. in that time frame jinton is charging up and aimed at him. he dies right after that.




Itachi's clones can interrupt Ōnoki.




> lol of course he can. itachi has zero speed feats to suggest he can flicker faster than onoki can move his hands.




If you think Ōnoki can move his body and spin in a circle faster than Itachi can Shunshin, I don't know what to tell you.




> what movement speed. itachi has hardly done much in terms of movement speed. hand seal speed and jutsu execution yes no doubt. itachi movement speed has no hype either




Read my first post in this thread. His performance against B is all the evidence of exceptional movement speed that is needed. In addition to that, he blitzed Kurenai, switched places with his clone in front of Hebi Sasuke's face, and was able to keep pace with KCM Naruto. Itachi has plenty of speed feats whether or not you choose to acknowledge them.




> agreed. however during amaterasu charge up, in a 3 vs 1 situation itachi gets gang rapped considering he will be limited to base skills till that point




You must have forgotten the context of this discussion. If Itachi opens with Gōkakyū no Jutsu and Mei counters with Suiton, Itachi can use that time to use Amaterasu to overpower Mei's Suiton and burn her. Or, Itachi could open with Gōkakyū no Jutsu, get behind one of the Kage like he did to B, and chop through them with a V2 Susano'o hand.




> not like he can be charging up ama while using his other MS skill. So even an amaterasu off the bat isn't happening. considering the charge up time is more than enough for hidden mist to be up.




Itachi with full knowledge can take out Mei long before that happens, and Mei wouldn't use that move immediately IC anyway.



> a serious itachi could mean susanoo off the bat. it doesn't imply his other skills were held back. or tskuyomi was magically weaker because u want it to be. itachi could not have killed sasuke with amaterasu. oral rebirth shits on amaterasu casually




It's a good thing Itachi's not a blithering idiot and wouldn't use Susano'o off the bat with full knowledge. If you think that Itachi wasn't able to defeat Sasuke with the Mangekyou when he used it, then you need to reread Chapter 401. Literally, first page of the chapter. If you still think Itachi would've had difficulty killing Sasuke when the panels of Itachi using Tsukuyomi and Amaterau are lain out right there in front of you, I don't know what to tell you.




> killer bee did interrupt it. nagato had to use ST, itachi didn't even attempt to move there.




... Because Nagato knocked the sword away.



> if bee and sasuke were further away doesn't it make it even easier for these guys to interrupt it?




The wider the distance between Itachi and his target, the farther Amaterasu has to travel, so of course it will be easier to react to Amaterasu at from a football field away. _I_ could react to Amaterasu from a football field away. And no, it doesn't make it easier to interrupt, because like I said in my first post of this thread, Itachi can distract or preoccupy the Kage with crows and then roast them.




> fooling around madara still>>>>>>>>itachi
> 
> considering hours of V3 susanoo easily exceeds all itachi can do
> 
> ...




Twist it however you like, but the fact of the matter is that Susano'o sword swings are slower than Itachi's movement speed.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Oral Rebirth can counter Amaterasu but couldn't an Amaterasu user with knowledge just make the flames appear on their face?..


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Oh right. I always thought that Sasuke cut a hole in the ground and then put his face over it.


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## Dr. White (Feb 16, 2016)

Oral Rebirth works as an ama counter if the caster isn't trying to kill you.


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## Itachі (Feb 16, 2016)

Oral Rebirth isn't really the fastest either, I could see Oro's opponent just Shunshining over there and putting him down again.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

@itachi oral rebirth has been used so much quicker than that . We both know that . In that same fight in fact 

And against Sasuke 

But you ignore this 

Why?

As for itachi held back which is why oral rebirth worked that's BS. Kishi didn't imply such 

Sasuke won't have banked on oral rebirth escaping considering he couldn't possibly know itachi would hold back at all 

Amaterasu slow burning feats give the oral rebirth user all the time to barf themselves out


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

@saru going to need my laptop to respond to your post 

Summary 

1) listing itachi techniques is abit pointless . Onoki has more stamina . Fact 

2) Karasu bunshin are weaker than kage bunshin . Since they take less chakra , iwa bunshin, raiton bunshin and kage bunshin all seem to consume 50% chakra 

3) itachi has only ever used one clone at a time . His 1 clone isn't beating or stalling onoki 6 clones in this match up . Even if it were just onoki vs itachi , clone game onoki wins . Each of his clones got more chakra and he has more 

4) onoki did use underground tech to save A from Madara swing . Attempt getting ur head out of itachi ass perhaps you would see the other panels in the manga 

5) the situation of Mei being taken out earlier is erroneous . In the situation where itachi uses fodder katon which is countered by Mei Suiton. Now itachi must dodge it while , tsunade closes in and jinton gets ready to be fired 

6) onoki got better speed feats . Naruto slammed Muu and sent him flying and onoki crossed a mountain range to get to Muu easily 

7) out manuvering 5 susanoo clones and weighing them down >>>>> getting behind bee and not even being able to land an attack

8) itachi opening with fodder katon then immediately using Amaterasu to overpower Mei is horrible fan fic . First up Amaterasu initial usage takes longer than that o charge up 

Sasuke could use katon , chiyo to and another katon before Amaterasu was ready . 

Mei counters fodder katon with suiton dragon and by then itachi must dodge while dealing an incoming jinton 

Itachi katon usage is at best a waste of chakra . If Mei can easily deal with Madara katon , itachi katon shouldn't even be mentioned as a 1/2 second stall tactic

Or you know tsunade can slap it away , rock golem can tank it 

Anyhow you look at it . Hidden mist will come up. Itachi can't stop it


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## Godaime Tsunade (Feb 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> _Gōkakyū no Jutsu_ is an extremely IC jutsu for Itachi to start with. The point of the Katon is to cause a distraction, not kill the enemy. If Mei were to counter with Suiton, she would be playing into Itachi's hand. It's odd that you think that Mei's Suiton is too fast and large for Itachi to dodge considering that Mei's Suiton has never hit a mobile opponent before, let alone someone as speedy as Itachi.



I know it's IC, but he's fighting a Suiton master and he has full knowledge on her. I dunno why he would even attempt a Katon when he has an extremely diverse arsenal and numerous other techniques to open with that would be more effective. As for her suiton, it was bigger than Madara's Katon, which was dozens of times bigger than Tsunade, so I don't think he can just run around it, especially since Mei can channel that water into another suiton afterwards and use her head to change the direction it moves in. Then you've got two other Kage on the field as well, while he's trying to dodge.



> You do realize Itachi was loyal to Konoha while he was alive... Right?



Obviously. I've been reading the manga since I was 12, there's no need to be so conceited. 

But that makes no difference to anything. Itachi made no such confession when he fought Kakashi, or Gai, or Asuma or Kurenai. Nor when he fought Chiyo, or BoS Naruto...or any other character, really. He didn't make Jiraiya a special case for no reason. 



> You do realize Itachi lost on purpose... Right?



Even if Itachi could have killed Sasuke earlier, my point was that he had a huge amount of difficulty fighting him, not that he lost. 



> You do realize Edo Tensei are brought back at even _less_ strength than they had before.... Right? Kabuto improved Edo Tensei, but they still weren't at 100% of their power in life.



Itachi had regeneration, limitless reserves and no illness. Even if he wasn't technically at 100%, he was still close to it, and got three other huge advantages that he never had before he died.​​


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I know it's IC, but he's fighting a Suiton master and he has full knowledge on her. I dunno why he would even attempt a Katon when he has an extremely diverse arsenal and numerous other techniques to open with that would be more effective.




... Like what, exactly?

Nothing else in Itachi's arsenal blocks LOS as effectively as Gōkakyū no Jutsu. Perhaps he could use Suiryūdan no Jutsu. However, those are the only options that Itachi has to distract the Kage from this distance. His fighting style revolves around deceptive tactics, low maintenance jusu, and speed. The only thing that would be more IC and logical for Itachi to attempt would be Finger Genjutsu.



> As for her suiton, it was bigger than Madara's Katon, which was dozens of times bigger than Tsunade, so I don't think he can just run around it, especially since Mei can channel that water into another suiton afterwards and use her head to change the direction it moves in.




I don't think that Mei would make a Suiton as large as Madara's Susano'o in the first place--her target here is human-sized. Even so, Itachi has the speed feats to suggest that he can dodge or go around Mei's Suiton without issue. His jutsu execution speed is superior to Mei's based on both hype and feats, and his Gōkakyū no Jutsu does not need to be sustained unlike Suiryūdan no Jutsu. Therefore, Itachi will have more time to act after launching his jutsu than Mei will. By the time that Mei's Suiton is released, Itachi will already be on the move. He could opt to leap over Mei's Suiton and approach the Kage from the air, as he did against Naruto and B. It seems as though this strategy would be very effective here, as B was unaware of Itachi's position until Nagato pointed it out [x]. I have no reason to believe the Kage would do much better than B did in that situation.



> Then you've got two other Kage on the field as well, while he's trying to dodge.




Again, I don't think that Mei's Suiton is as much of a nuisance as you're making it out to be. It's not like Mei can make her Suiton spin in circles. Besides, if B wasn't able to track Itachi's movement, what makes you think that Mei while using her Suiton will be able to (especially if she makes it large enough to obstruct her own LOS)?




> Obviously. I've been reading the manga since I was 12, there's no need to be so conceited.
> 
> But that makes no difference to anything. Itachi made no such confession when he fought Kakashi, or Gai, or Asuma or Kurenai. Nor when he fought Chiyo, or BoS Naruto...or any other character, really. He didn't make Jiraiya a special case for no reason.




My point is that, in all of those instances you mentioned, Itachi was not trying to fight in a manner that would lead to his victory. Victory was never Itachi's goal, and that would obviously have an impact on how effectively Itachi fought in those instances. For example, when he fought Kurenai, he appeared to have outright blitzed her after a brief CQC exchange. If Itachi could have done that from the beginning why didn't he? Why didn't Itachi simply kill her then and there instead of stalling with words as he did when he was sent to kidnap Naruto? It goes back Itachi's refusal to actually attempt victory.




> Even if Itachi could have killed Sasuke earlier, my point was that he had a huge amount of difficulty fighting him, not that he lost.




Fair enough, but this is also due to the fact that Itachi was fighting Itachi without the intent to win. It's not like Itachi was fighting Part 1 Sasuke. He was fighting someone who had managed to take out a member of the Akatsuki and obtained the Powers of the White Snake. Most characters would have trouble if they had to fight against someone with the ability to kill them in a convincing but non-lethal manner. Then there's also the fact that Itachi was on his deathbed. That probably had a lot do with his performance. However, according the OP, this is deathbed Itachi, so I actually agree with you that Itachi would be unable to win in such a state.




> Itachi had regeneration, limitless reserves and no illness. Even if he wasn't technically at 100%, he was still close to it, and got three other huge advantages that he never had before he died.




Itachi didn't use his regeneration in his fights with Naruto, B, or Nagato. The only times that Itachi was actually able to benefit from his regeneration were when *a)* he was protecting Sasuke at his own peril and *b)* when he was forming the seals for Izanami. As for his reserves--can you prove that Itachi (Edo Tensei) was able to benefit from having his chakra replenished over time in any one fight that he had? Itachi was able to use the Mangekyō without panting or recoil--that much is clear. However, there is nothing to suggest that his Edo Tensei feats can be attributed to his chakra being replenished over time. The removal of Itachi's illness was a godsend, but Itachi didn't suffer from any of those side effects in Part 1, so I would say that his stamina as an Edo Tensei is more representative of how he would've fought in Part 1 (i.e. without popping pills to prevent himself from collapsing on the floor in a puddle of his own blood).​​


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

Saru to save time. You cant possibly convince me he wins 3 vs 1. or even lasts long enough to make it a decent fight. For me he dies miserably 

Full knowledge means his immediate target is tsunade. Foolish to not kill the medic off first. 

Killing tsunade with a team as back up requires undoubtedly use of MS. sadly using amaterasu or tskuyomi off the bat seems to require charge time while susanoo, we limited feats of alive itachi using it

Remember it causes actual bodily pain to the user. Itachi is even a worse health condition than MS sasuke was 

For me itachi nightmare starts when hidden mist goes up. While this isn't an auto blind tactic. it removes genjutsu as a threat as well as things such as Amaterasu. remember sharingan sees chakra, what exactly would he be focused on? a blanket area of chakra?

From there its downhill he gets tagged by jinton or exhausted while camping in susanoo and dies

they cant take this with anything other than low diff


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

what threat did itachi fodder karasu clones pose to sasuke? he blocked the attack then defeated the clone

itachi only ever used 1 crow clone against sasuke. the rest was during their genjutsu exchange. that had nothing to do with cloning

the scans of itachi shiruken skills being a threat actually show his attacks being easily blocked. Not sure you want to use those scans. unless you implying the kage got no reactions to block them at all. shiruken little attacks will be blocked. they are effective distractions. Which is good in 1 on 1. 3 on 1...distracting 1 enemy leaves 2 completely undistracted ready to attack u

in any case we going round in circles. 

you believe itachi would win based on well got no idea...omnipotence or something not sure. I firmly believe he wont


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

Itachi's shurikenjutsu can take out Onoki's clones or distract them as Itachi deals with Tsunade. And again, Itachi has clones, and by the time they come out, the match will be 2-on-1. The clones mitigate Itachi's number disadvantage. 

Itachi in Part 1 health can certainly win this difficulty.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

Saru said:


> Itachi's shurikenjutsu can take out Onoki's clones or distract them as Itachi deals with Tsunade. And again, Itachi has clones, and by the time they come out, the match will be 2-on-1. The clones mitigate Itachi's number disadvantage.
> 
> Itachi in Part 1 health can certainly win this difficulty.



itachi shiruken jutsu taking out onoki clones is baseless. horribly so. every scan shows them being blocked without much effort. itachi has clones big whoop onoki got more clones, 

when they come out, they are welcomed with open arms by onoki clones

so itachi aint mitigating any number disadvantage. he will always be at a heavy disadvantage

itachi in part 1 health did not have a fight. he used 3 MS jutsu in the whole day and fled because he needed to rest. hardly sounds like a stamina healthy beast to me

but like I said we can never see eye to eye. when u make shit up like featless shiruken jutsu beat onoki clones, when everytime it has been used in battle it has been blocked without much effort


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## Itachі (Feb 17, 2016)

I remember Itachi dealing with Naruto's clones behind him with Shuriken and Sasuke was only able to deal with Itachi's Shuriken because he summoned Shuriken straight to his hands...

Itachi also used Shuriken in Part 1 as a distraction and he used them in his Katon: Hosenka and Bee blocked them with his partial transformation.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I remember Itachi dealing with Naruto's clones behind him with Shuriken and Sasuke was only able to deal with Itachi's Shuriken because he summoned Shuriken straight to his hands...
> 
> Itachi also used Shuriken in Part 1 as a distraction and he used them in his Katon: Hosenka and Bee blocked them with his partial transformation.



yes base wind arc Naruto clones. horribly weak entities compared to those discussed here. 

true however these guys don't need to respond with shiruken. Mei can use jutsu to block, so can onoki. those shiruken wont do much to tsunade so she runs through them 

yes shiruken can be used as very good distractions, 1 on 1. however becomes less effective when u fighting a clone user like onoki, and 2 other kage each with very different skill sets

eg: a weapon distraction followed by a base jutsu would not really have tsunade respond or loose footing since she would simply keep running at him. naturally the idea here is they cover each other backs 

so all she need to do is focus on attacking him, whatever attack that is used following the kunai feinting should be dealt with by the other kage

I cant see how itachi by himself beats 3 of them. its really ridiculous


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> any other version of itachi is mostly baseless. part 1 itachi fled. we have no idea what he is like in an actual battle situation. the guy got less chakra than sasuke and even sasuke runs out of steam quickly after using MS




It's not baseless. You have simply chosen to ignore circumstance.




> too much chakra consumed prevents his high end techs from being used.




Obviously. That's why I posted the list of jutsu that deathbed Itachi can use and discussed ways that Itachi can pose a threat _without_ the Mangekyou.




> yes if 1 clone is used its got 50% of onoki chakra. that's not an arbitrary value




That's for Kage Bunshin, not Iwa Bunshin. You made numbers up for the latter.




> true. however itachi clones will be using projectile weapons against onoki clones capable of using rock fist, rock golem (most likely the smaller versions), weight manipulation techs, earth core techs etc. Then we got the obvious fact that IC itachi doesn't clone spam due to the obvious consequence for a low stamina fighter to split his chakra
> 
> 
> so itachi would have less clones on the field using kunai to deal with more onoki clones using jutsu




That much is fine; Itachi is obviously at a disadvantage. He doesn't need to beat Onoki with his clones, he just needs to distract him long enough to take out Tsunade.



> lol what fictional levelling effect would there be. one clone due to less access to chakra
> has inherently a weaker body, slower reactions, weaker jutsu etc. Clone= weaker version of original. crow clone are even weaker versions of that. I cant see how there is a levelling effect when onoki can simply use more clones who have access to more jutsu




Onoki can't use any more than six clones without running out of chakra for Jinton. Itachi's Karasu Bunshin are strong enough to put up a fight against Onoki's clones as Itachi takes out Tsunade.




> all out certainly doesn't involve pussy footing which you have been implying so far. that involves running at them with susanoo. which I hope he does. only way he doesn't die quick




Susano'o spam is not the way that Itachi fights.




> first few words are pure fan fic. he is incapable of dispatching her quickly. baseless assumption, not founded in anything at all. so at this point...after this post. Wont carry on the tardism is too much




Ignorance is bliss.




> it makes his clones weaker. again less access to chakra means less jutsu available. kunai tricks have been blocked




That's fine; the intent is not to kill Onoki with kenjutsu anyway. If you read my post, that much should've come across.




> you show him using shiruken tricks, being blocked effortlessly as a means to say it would be effective here.
> 
> onoki blocks kunai with rock golem or a clone spat out of his mouth takes the hit.




Making them defend is the point. 




> Mei water wall's it. tsunade simply takes it and keeps it moving




Mei would already be taken care of within the first few moments of the match. Itachi wouldn't come at Tsunade with shurikenjutsu in the first place with full knowledge. That would be idiotic. She gets the Totsuka treatment or put down by Amaterasu.



> you cant show sasuke and bee dealing with it easily then implying the kages in a 3 on 1 situation wont




I never said they wouldn't be able to deal with it. Reread my post. I was talking about Itachi fighting and distracting Onoki.




> kunai tricks would be a distraction at best. which is effective in 1 on 1 scenarios not 3 vs 1




I disagree.




> onoki wont dodge. he will block, easily at that.




And then Itachi's Karasu Bunshin is behind him. Itachi just has to put pressure on Onoki and his clones long enough to defeat Tsunade.




> been truing to find the scan. what chapter?




[x]




> ok and itachi has never used multiple clones. so he wont use it here. since we arguing in that fashion. it isn't IC. itachi 1 clone gets overwhelmed by onoki 6




It is IC because Itachi is trying to win and needs clones to do so. Cop out argument. If you don't see the difference between a character using a jutsu that they've used before and using a jutsu _*they've never used before*_, there is no help for you. U_U




> that's a horribly flawed logic. Naruto without trying could keep track. this is 3 vs 1. unlike bee and Naruto, they have a suiton user who would laugh at itachi fodder katon. so loosing track of itachi is unlikely.
> 
> though, if they loose track itachi gets feinted by onoki clones.




Unlikely based on what? B countered Itachi's Katon and got blindsided, so this isn't even an a proper refutation. The Kage don't have reaction speed on par with KCM Naruto.




> the fact thay you agree. shows no point talking with u. hilarious to suggest itachi got V2 A level of speed. nothing remotely suggests such. nothing at all, no feats or hype could justify such dumbness




I _never_ said that Itachi had V2 A speed. 




> not If itachi wants to win. again he doesn't have eyes behind his head. its foolish to think all kages remain in his LOS and attack simply from the front. they will obviously surround him




Itachi will attack first and gain the offensive advantage for the simple fact that Itachi's jutsu speed > anyone else's jutsu speed on the opposing team. The Kage will be the ones on the defensive at the beginning of the match.




> being camped in susanoo keeps him in attack while defending. its silly to think outnumbered he will use pussy foot ineffective tactics. shiruken throwing at 3 kages




It's silly to think Itachi would camp in Susano'o the majority of the match--something he's literally never done. The problem is that you think Itachi's skillset consists solely of Susano'o, Amaterasu, and Tsukuyomi, and it doesn't. He can pressure Onoki in particular through less exhaustive means.




> when 1 on 1 in both situations he attempted that he got easily blocked.
> 
> katon when madara katon was useless against 2 of the kages mentioned here. Really dude. we reading a different manga




Putting Onoki on the defensive is the point.




> it certainly has a longer reach. however all samehada needs to be is close susanoo and it would drain itachi baby chakra. so bee aint getting struck while blocking the attack with samehada




Unless Itachi's Susano'o hand actually uses its range advantage and goes around Samehada.




> kakashi said it wouldn't, ill take his word over fan biased speculation.




That literally never happened.




> ...zetsu mentions the air shifting then says sasuke is trying to stop him from using amaterasu. like a full chapter before he actually uses it.
> 
> fact is at that point. first thing zetsu mentions is itachi is going to use amaterasu, he has gotten serious. so clearly if sasuke could easily interrupt him 1 on 1. how are 3 kages going to fail at doing so?




That's what distractions are for. I can see it's hopeless to debate Amaterasu with you, because you have it confused with Kotoamatsukami in terms of its charge time.




> lol yes with his impressive speed that part 1 kakashi could cope with. certainly




When Itachi was jobbing.




> the kages aren't bee.




No, they're not. They're slower and have worse reactions than B, which is why Mei will get karate chopped within the first few moments of the match.




> so itachi can distract them. 1 against 3. but they cant distract him. am loving this bias




If Mei's dead, and Onoki and Tsunade are the only ones there, Itachi can distract Onoki long enough to take out Tsunade.




> from madara. who is>>>>>>>>>>>itachi. or is the argument that itachi katon is stronger?




Itachi's Katon is too big for Tsunade to swat away. I thought that much was clear when I explicitly commented on its size.




> is itachi katon more than 5 times the size of it? what stops her from batting it when she could bat 5 more advanced katon technique. notice the rank difference, the shape manipulation difference and that's the same tech sasuke needed CS2 to actually use. its clearly above itachi fire ball.




Rank has nothing to with strength. I'm talking about size.




> why she can heal her hands or body. sasuke called itachi katon attack little burns not worth dodging. yes in 1 on 1 he can. not when he gotta deal with 2 others coming from different angles.




The Kage are not CS2 Sasuke, and Tsunade is no more immune to Katon than she was two posts ago.




> which get blocked. easily as per the scans you posted. as for katon, its not a threat. same way you would claim onoki rock golem can be side stepped. if itachi has to side step it, therefore evade it, is the golem a threat?
> 
> despite the omnipotence you seem to have given itachi




Onoki's golem is fodder and too slow to hit Itachi in the first place. Itachi's shurikenjutsu is fast and deadly enough to force Onoki to defend with Doton. 




> in the manga. don't they know of itachi MS jutsu. They sure as hell knew sasuke MS jutsu during the summit.




Probably. That doesn't have any bearing on my argument.




> ok targets Mei first. unless he eradicates her body or kills her instantly tsunade will simply heal her.




She'll be chopped in half by a V2 Susano'o hand and bleed out. There's no healing from bisection. Mei isn't Tsunade.




> even after Mei used hidden mist against madara, madara still opted to target tsunade. to which Mei replies its common sense to attack tsunade. guessing you believe itacih lacks common sense




Madara's not bothered by Mei's mist as much as Madara is. 




> lol why? katsuyu can heal remotely they don't have to stand still. love how you forget tsunade can heal via katsuyu. oh gotta love the fan tards. she summons katsuyu and can heal them regardless of where they are on the field. do you need scans of this?




In which case Itachi roasts Tsunade with Amaterasu or seals her with Totsuka while Onoki is being healed. I love how you forget the size Katsuyu needs to be to heal her allies. It's not exactly something you can fight with as it heals you.




> u ready 388 where zetsu talks about him using it. and sasuke interrupting his use of it. The whole pressure and air shifting was him prepping it. Nagato notices something similar when he tries to use it as an edo




Mhm. What's your point? He wasn't prepping it the whole entire chapter, which is what you claimed.




> if she was alone yes. she would die there. however after gokayu is blocked and itachi attacks her with susanoo. whats onoki doing? is he having a cup of tea




Onoki's moving out of the way of the Susano'o hand slicing through Mei's torso. Again, Itachi will have the offensive advantage due to the distraction from Goukakyu, so the Kage will be on the defensive at the start. Itachi can defeat one of Kage in that time, then proceed to move elsewhere and stall Onoki with Bunshin as he goes to work on Tsunade.




> hahaha  the bias is real. so itachi is as healthy as can be but onoki is left with his back problems
> 
> unlike fan fic baseless healthy itachi. onoki going through a fight with no back issues has been seen. he had no issues with it against madara.
> 
> sad attempt mate.




That's because Onoki didn't fly at high speeds against Madara.


*Spoiler*: __ 











And somehow you think Itachi is going to crumble faster than Onoki. As long as Itachi's doesn't do something idiotic like, I don't know, camp in Susano'o against a Jinton user, he'll win this match.



> so deluded you mention shiruken skills being a thing yet kishi disagrees with u. as he shows them being easily blocked




Actually, Kishi disagrees with you downplaying Itachi's shurikenjutsu considering Sasuke needed prep and Orochimaru's power to counter it.




> ps: tsunade could slap fire away. why is itacih fire physically impossible to slap. or are we saying madara katon got some fundamental flaw with it which makes it easier to bat away. do explain what flaw this is. am curious oh fan fic saru san




Again...

... It's about size.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

Saru we going around in circles

you say itachi wins. I  at the ridiculousness of it. 

I say he looses terrible 

the end

who else sides with itachi and why lets hear your argument. Hope it would be more than itachi shiruken jutsu is super fast but onoki golem is slow type of argument. despite its hand being quick and strong enough to save A from madara susanoo clone strikes 

or itachi katon is too big to be dealt with by tsunade....

or he got magical speed and can feint and get behind the kages and they too slow to move. Despite onoki being able to slow 5 clones down and save A all in the time it took susanoo clones to swing down. their blades 

guess getting behind bee is considered more impressive for some very strange reason

really want to read a proper argument not based in hilarious itachi got omnipotence scenario

*ps: unless statd otherwise ration bunshin, kage bunshin and iwa bunshin disperse chakra evenly. When it isn't the case kishi has made a point to clarify that, either via scans or DB in the case of karasu and mizu bunshin

nothing is said of iwa bunshin having less chakra than kage bunshin *

Sadgoob, itachi , Grimmjaw lets hear your arguments. quite curious


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

B was unable to track Itachi's position until Nagato's warning, and he needed Itachi's warning to react to Itachi's blindside. There's no explanation for that other than that Itachi was faster than B and faster than he could react. 

Itachi can flank the Kage the same way he flanked B.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

madara clones with rinnegan were unable to react to onoki heavy weighting all of them and saving A

no other way to say it than onoki can outpace madara clones so bad he can immobilize them and save A all in the time it takes for them to swimg a sword

that's more impressive than getting behind bee.

unless of course the claim is bee got better reactions than madara rinnegan clones. hilarious claim though


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## Itachі (Feb 17, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Sadgoob, itachi , Grimmjaw lets hear your arguments. quite curious



You assume that I think Itachi could win? 

Anyway, I think that Itachi _could_ win high diff but Tsunade, Mei & Onoki will take it most of the time. Reason I think that this is an alright match up is that Tsunade is weak to Itachi's MS Jutsu and Onoki's go-to move is Jinton which consumes a lot of Chakra. Onoki's Jutsu is very powerful but he could very well waste Chakra by using Jinton on Bunshin. Mei's just kind of there to provide support, lol. But yeah, once Itachi uses MS once his stats are going to drop which will allow his opponents to overwhelm him sooner or later. I also gave Itachi full knowledge to make it more balanced.


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

Onoki merely needs to touch Susano'o to weigh it down. It's a lot easier for Onoki to incapacitate the Susano'o clones than it is for them to strike him. Nothing about Madara's Susano'o clones came across as fast. They're big and powerful, but they can be evaded.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

not strike him

strike A!!!! 

he weighed all 5 down and saved A by the end of the swing here

[x]

notice onoki can create just the hand for underground attacks. 

*I don't see how you cant see 3 vs 1 is a hard hard situation for anyone. * 1 on 1 yes then all your posts make so much more sense. 3 on 1...even jobbin madara needed to start playing defensively to not loose against 5. Madara we talking about.....the gap between the 2 uchiha is like heaven an earth. IN speed, battle prowess , ninjutsu 

btw as to kakashi statement on tskuyomi you are right. I got confused. he never said it would work in fact he said it wouldn't 

I apologize for that one.


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

He saved A first (hence the Doton), then weighed down the Susano'o. It's impressive but it doesn't say anything about Onoki's ability to react to someone attacking him. No one ever said that Onoki would have trouble reacting to Itachi in the first place. But swooping in from off panel to tag slower opponents is not _more _impressive than anything Itachi's done. Itachi did the same thing to Nagato and the shared vision of his Kuchiyose.


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## Icegaze (Feb 17, 2016)

ok so he saved A first. stood next to A, yet had the speed to off panel the susanoo so hard. they were paralyzed in that same panel? sounds like he is even faster. if he didn't weigh them down before saving A, and weighed them down after. then he is that much faster than they are since, they had already seen onoki standing next to A 

that's a blitz of epic epic proportions 

yes itachi did to that to nagato summons. which is the only on panel successful feat of the shiruken jutsu u keep hyping. every other time he attempted such it failed 

you did say multiple times bee didn't react to itachi gets behind all 3. that includes onoki 

each kage has shown reactions and jutsu speed which heavily implies they can not only react to itachi but counter

like I said we cant see eye to eye, I already think 1 on 1 onoki has high chances of winning


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## Saru (Feb 17, 2016)

He sliced Nagato's Asura Path arms off.

What has Mei shown to suggest that she can do better than B did?


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## Ryuzaki (Feb 17, 2016)

Itachi takes out all three without a question with high to extreme difficulty in this one only because Oonoki is in it. Tsunade/Mei are effectively useless in the battle and can literally be one-shot. Oonoki is going to give him the greatest trouble throughout the match, he's easily the strongest 2-way fighter the Gokage had, easily the best performance out of the other kages in their 5 vs. 1 bout against ET Madara.

His performance as an Edo is something worth noting as well, Itachi was never shown at his full capacity until he was an Edo Tensei (showed his limits and strengths).

Itachi takes this 8.5-9.0/10, no way he's losing with full knowledge, especially if he can one-shot someone with Tsukuyomi at the start.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 17, 2016)

Solid win for Itachi under these conditions. Full knowledge for Itachi means that there isn't much they can offer here. Itachi oneshots Onoki with Amaterasu, kills Tsunade with totsuka or Tsukiyom, and taijutsu blitzes Mei with a clone feint or genjutsu.


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## Itachі (Feb 17, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi oneshots Onoki with Amaterasu, kills Tsunade with totsuka or Tsukiyom, and taijutsu blitzes Mei with a clone feint or genjutsu.



Raikiri19, is that you?


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> He sliced Nagato's Asura Path arms off.
> 
> What has Mei shown to suggest that she can do better than B did?



Reacting to Madara jutsu perhaps 

Unless u implying itachi is faster than Madara 

Would be funny though


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Nah. Mei's not reacting to Itachi's Body Flicker from 20m after using a jutsu.

She's not more reactive than B, and she's not doing anything when Itachi is in her face.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Ryuzaki said:


> Itachi takes out all three without a question with high to extreme difficulty in this one only because Oonoki is in it. Tsunade/Mei are effectively useless in the battle and can literally be one-shot. Oonoki is going to give him the greatest trouble throughout the match, he's easily the strongest 2-way fighter the Gokage had, easily the best performance out of the other kages in their 5 vs. 1 bout against ET Madara.
> 
> His performance as an Edo is something worth noting as well, Itachi was never shown at his full capacity until he was an Edo Tensei (showed his limits and strengths).
> 
> Itachi takes this 8.5-9.0/10, no way he's losing with full knowledge, especially if he can one-shot someone with Tsukuyomi at the start.



It's scary that you think that . Terrifying even . Oh wow 

Mei with hidden mist is hardly useless she robs itachi of his effective Arsenal . Very easily with that 1 move 

Edo tensei removes draw back from MS which allows every tech to be used easier 

He felt no pain while using susanoo . No draw back from tskuyomi which he did while alive and same for Amaterasu 

Edo itachi clearly stands above anytning itachi could do while alive 

They got manga knowledge which means off the bat Mei trying to mist , onoki spitting out clones and tsunade uses Byakuyo

Mei has already shown very decent hand seal speed . Enough to imply she can spit out mist to cover the battle field quickly 

Despite knowledge on the opposition side this tech really hasn't been interrupted before . Doubt itachi can ignore 2 kage and kill Mei before she performs 1 hand seal


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> Nah. Mei's not reacting to Itachi's Body Flicker from 20m after using a jutsu.
> 
> She's not more reactive than B, and she's not doing anything when Itachi is in her face.



Yet could react to Madara jutsu who we know is faster than itachi 

Or do u think itachi is faster than Madara ?

I assure you feats say otherwise 

She doesn't need to be more reactive than bee . Bee after all did not get hit , he showed no exclamation marks indicating he was surprised by itachi being behind him 

Some translations say I know , others am on it 

That's doesn't imply omg you saved my life by telling me where you are


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

The VIZ translation has B saying _"Got it!"_

Itachi felt the need to give B a warning before he attacked. Now how many times has that happened in the manga? The attacker giving their opponent a heads up? Just a few seconds earlier, B was just as confused by Itachi's Katon into Body Flicker until Nagato told him to look up. There's no logical explanation for those two accounts other than that Itachi's too fast for B to keep track of his Body Flicker. Now, Itachi's CQC movement speed is something that B could handle, but not his Body Flicker. Apparently only Naruto could. I don't know why it's so hard for you to believe that Itachi would have injured B if B didn't have those warnings from Itachi and Nagato. Kishi didn't throw those warnings in there for no Reisen.

And yes, Itachi's Body Flicker is faster than Madara's Katon. If it wasn't, no one would be able to avoid his Katon. Hell, no one would be able to avoid Mei's Suiton since she intercepted Madara's Katon. So I don't know what your angle is there.

Mei's not going to be able to react to a Susano'o blindside any better than Nagato did.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Ya no. Nobody in their right mind actually believes that Itachis flicker was really pressuring KB. If you literally analyze that feat you'll realize that Killer needing to be warned was tied to the fact that he wasn't paying attention to if Itachi had moved or not. Itachi capitalized on the fact that KB and Naruto were caught off guard to attack. Its why Naruto almost tipped himself over being awed by the massive summonings appearing right in front of his face, which is more or line the same line of though that Bee was having given his character2

I mean if you actually believe KB couldn't keep track of Itachi's flicker , then you also have to believe Itachis attack speed is piss poor. KB caught the warning after Itachi appeared and still had time to swing heavy ass Samehada before Itachi could swing his Kunai. And KB was in the worst of positions.

I'm more inclined to believe that both Naruto and Killer Bee can react to Itachis flicker, then Itachi being that much slower in CQC than KB weilding Samehada. Which again, is instantly negated by the fact that Itachi could physically react to the much faster SSS.


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Oh, man. 

Is that why Killer B needed Nagato's warning at the start of the match?

Note the smoke cloud from Itachi's Body Flicker and Killer B's confusion.



Killler B lost track of Itachi twice. Regardless of what excuse you want to make up for B, you don't let somebody get behind your back. Ever. If you wanna talk about circumstance, Itachi wasn't even trying to kill B; he was ordered to capture.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 18, 2016)

The only difference between Itachi and Madara is their firepower and stamina.     Speed, Intellect, Battle smart, Mind-set and prior knowledge all contribute. 

And remember, Madara doesn't have Tsukuyomi OR Amateratsu and Madara flat out admitted he was just playing around.

Itachi with full intel can give 99% of people a hard time I believe. You're talking about one of the smartest ninja's in the Manga who will quickly analyse and learn your weaknesses.  With full Intel, Itachi will know ALL of their weaknesses and exploit them in the most efficient way as possible.



With Intel Itachi will take this. Without Intel, he will probably lose since he'll be using jutsu's to test their abilities first and not go for their weaknesses since he doesn't know them yet. 


At the very LEAST he takes 1 or 2 down with him. Tosuka is more than capable of taking either Mei or Tsunade since neither of them has shown any considerable speed feats to dodge.   

The hidden mist won't be much of a problem considering Itachi is capable of attacking without seeing (Itachi pierced Orochimaru when he was already blind and pierced Nagato when Itachi was inside a smoke). 


The only major threat against Itachi here is a Jinton, and Itachi has more or less the reaction and actual speed to dodge it.  Remember Itachi managed to react before EMS Sasuke could even react against Kabuto.

Worst comes to worse,  use Izanagi take everyone down with him at the cost of 2 of his eyes which should give him a very long time (considering it's MS) and being practically unkillable and able to appear almost anywhere as shown in the Sasuke vs Danzo fight and he can use Amateratsu from behind at close range.

(Assuming Izanagi isn't banned)  Even though Itachi's never shown us he can use Izanagi, it's pretty much stated in the manga that any uchiha can use it as long as they know how, and Itachi will undoubtedly know since he knows about Izanami and Izanagi.

Remember the fact that only Itachi and Madara has shown the ability to program their eyes to use any particular techniques even after their death (E.g. Madara using Izanagi after death, Itachi Implanting Amateratsu into Sasuke's eyes, Rigged Shisui's eyes to react a certain way) and all of it are effects after his death. It would be no surprise to me if Itachi can use Izanagi in the same way as Madara where if he dies in Battle, he can use Izanagi to come back to life.   I'm not stating this is the way Itachi is going to win, but I'm just putting this possibility out there.


I rest my case.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

" I know", means KB was aware just like Naruto. He didnt ask for any of those warnings. Which makes sense considering both those body flickers didn't catch any of them off guard. Verbal warning would also hold no merit if the opponent was actually fast enough to escape LoS completely.

Then there the fact that Itachi wasn't able to swing his kunai fast enough from a blindside attack to hit KB, yet the latter was able to swing something slower than his original arsenal. Which all just leads me to believe that KB can keep track of Itachis flicker. And KB doesn't always go by the rules. He kinda fucks around. Like letting himself get kicked in the chest against Sasuke. For all he knew, that could have been a Tsunade level kick, and we could have seen a dead Bee.

So was Itachi gonna flciker behind Bee and do nothing? I also kinda think a Kunai stab is less lethal than a hoarde of flaming ninja stars.


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> " I know", means KB was aware just like Naruto. He didnt ask for any of those warnings. Which makes sense considering both those body flickers didn't catch any of them off guard. Verbal warning would also hold no merit if the opponent was actually fast enough to escape LoS completely.
> 
> Then there the fact that Itachi wasn't able to swing his kunai fast enough from a blindside attack to hit KB, yet the latter was able to swing something slower than his original arsenal. Which all just leads me to believe that KB can keep track of Itachis flicker. And KB doesn't always go by the rules. He kinda fucks around. Like letting himself get kicked in the chest against Sasuke. For all he knew, that could have been a Tsunade level kick, and we could have seen a dead Bee.




I wasn't talking about the second warning. I was talking about the first one. Look in the spoiler above. And physical reflexes =/= ability to follow an opponents speed. The issue isn't with Itachi's CQC speed or Killer B's reflexes, the issue is that B simply lost track of Itachi. Twice. That's why he needed a warning on both occasions. Killer B has the _physical movement_ speed to fight and react to Itachi, he's just unable to follow his Body Flicker.




> So was Itachi gonna flciker behind Bee and do nothing? I also kinda think a Kunai stab is less lethal than a hoarde of flaming ninja stars.




Itachi could've swung his kunai if he hadn't alerted B to his location. If Itachi really wanted to kill B he would've attempted to chop him half in with Susano'o. Or he would've used Tsukuyomi instead of Sharingan Genjutsu. Of course Itachi had to pose some sort of offensive threat because he was commanded by Kabuto to "attack."


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> I wasn't talking about the second warning. I was talking about the first one. Look in the spoiler above. And physical reflexes =/= ability to follow an opponents speed. The issue isn't with Itachi's CQC speed or Killer B's reflexes, the issue is that B simply lost track of Itachi. Twice. That's why he needed a warning on both occasions. Killer B has the _physical movement_ speed to fight and react to Itachi, he's just unable to follow his Body Flicker.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know you were. But the reply Bee gave in the first spoiler negates any factor of surprise. The warning wasn't actually needed there at all. You can argue that it was the 2nd time, but definitely not the first. And that's where he disagree. Bee didn't lose track of him twice. The first time Itachi used a LoS blocker and KB still knew where he was. The 2nd time Nagato used a LoS blocker, and given by the way KB reacted in such close proximity leads me to KB could in fact react to Itachi.

I think you should consider when the warning was given in the 2nd stipulation. Itachi was kind of already behind Bee . I think if Bee didn't already realize where Itachi was, then he wouldn't gotten Stabbed. Itachi had more than enough time to attack, and he isn't that slow in CQC. That would place him below a lot of characters.

Why is that actually relevant? It doesn't matter what Itachi was using, it only matters that when he was attacking, he was attacking at his fastest speeds. He didn't pull his blow, or slow it down. That was physically Itachis peak.


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> I know you were. But the reply Bee gave in the first spoiler negates any factor of surprise. The warning wasn't actually needed there at all. You can argue that it was the 2nd time, but definitely not the first. And that's where he disagree. Bee didn't lose track of him twice. The first time Itachi used a LoS blocker and KB still knew where he was. The 2nd time Nagato used a LoS blocker, and given by the way KB reacted in such close proximity leads me to KB could in fact react to Itachi.




That "!!?" indicates B doesn't know what the fuck is going on.




> I think you should consider when the warning was given in the 2nd stipulation. Itachi was kind of already behind Bee . I think if Bee didn't already realize where Itachi was, then he wouldn't gotten Stabbed. Itachi had more than enough time to attack, and he isn't that slow in CQC. That would place him below a lot of characters.
> 
> Why is that actually relevant? It doesn't matter what Itachi was using, it only matters that when he was attacking, he was attacking at his fastest speeds. He didn't pull his blow, or slow it down. That was physically Itachis peak.




The ViZ translation is "Got it!" In other words, "Okay!" He was responding to Itachi.

So B didn't know Itachi was there until Itachi told him he was there.

We know that Itachi wasn't fighting with intent to kill, so there was no reason for him to go all out in that instance. It has nothing to with Itachi's physical peak and everything to do with intent. It becomes blatantly obvious later that Itachi was holding back when he uses Sharingan Genjutsu on B instead of Tsukuyomi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> The VIZ translation has B saying _"Got it!"_
> 
> Itachi felt the need to give B a warning before he attacked. Now how many times has that happened in the manga? The attacker giving their opponent a heads up? Just a few seconds earlier, B was just as confused by Itachi's Katon into Body Flicker until Nagato told him to look up. There's no logical explanation for those two accounts other than that Itachi's too fast for B to keep track of his Body Flicker.



I'd say combined with a distraction, Itachi is quick enough to flank B. That is somewhat close to a legit blitz. Actually the second time around, there wasn't much of a distraction. B took his eyes off Itachi for a second and Itachi was behind him in the next panel, pretty much identical to this : 2

And yes, the author was making a point. Nagato & Itachi were the top dogs in that fight and they needed to job a little for the kids to stand a chance.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> That "!!?" indicates B doesn't know what the fuck is going on.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Not always. Killer Bee also had his LoS blocked and was talking to Naruto. It wasn't a factor of Itachi's body flciker being too fast for KB, as he flickered after Bee's LOS was broken.

I know. Which is contributed to KB being distracted by Nagato. And again, the reason I think he genuinely can react to Itachi, is the fact that Itachi couldn't actually get a blow for that advantage positioIsn.

Itachi isn't in control of his body. Which is why he tries to warn Bee instead of simply slowing himself down. Kabuto would have no reason to slow Itachi down in this situations, and a kunai stab isn't killing KB of all people.
☻


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say combined with a distraction, Itachi is quick enough to flank B. That is somewhat close to a legit blitz. Actually the second time around, there wasn't much of a distraction. A took his eyes off Itachi for a second and Itachi was behind him in the next panel.
> And yes, the author was making a point. Nagato & Itachi were the top dogs in that fight and they needed to job a little for the kids to stand a chance.




Yeah, that's exactly my point. If Itachi opens with a subtle distraction like Goukakyuu, there's nothing to suggest that Mei would be able to react better to Itachi's Body Flicker better than B did.



Likes boss said:


> Not always. Killer Bee also had his LoS blocked and was talking to Naruto. It wasn't a factor of Itachi's body flciker being too fast for KB, as he flickered after Bee's LOS was broken.




If someone else has to tell you what's going on, yet your teammate (i.e. Naruto) already knows what was going on, it means _you don't know what's going on_. There's no ambiguity. Naruto was talking too; that's not an excuse.




> I know. Which is contributed to KB being distracted by Nagato. And again, the reason I think he genuinely can react to Itachi, is the fact that Itachi couldn't actually get a blow for that advantage positioIsn.




Of course Itachi wasn't able to attack. He let B know he was there.




> Itachi isn't in control of his body.




He was in control. Itachi was on autopilot at that point, which is why Itachi was able to speak at all. It's also why he was able to activate the Mangekyou of his own accord. Itachi may not have been capable of stopping his attack, but he was the one calling all of the shots.




> Which is why he tries to warn Bee instead of simply slowing himself down. Kabuto would have no reason to slow Itachi down in this situations, and a kunai stab isn't killing KB of all people.
> ☻




A serious Itachi wouldn't have attempted a kunai stab in the first place. 

I only mentioned the kunai because you introduced a hypothetical kunai into the discussion.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 18, 2016)

No she won't.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

It would be dishonest to claim itachi first flicker against killer bee didn't surprise him 

The exclamation marks are there for a reason 

However I question his ability to flicker and attack all 3 kages or 1 without them being able to defend 

No different from people claiming even after minato appears at a marked area he still needs to attack 

So here itachi lacks the jutsu scale to target all 3 at the same time , targeting one allows the other to defend 

He isn't going to flicker , kill Mei or tsunade without any of them seeing what happened 

That's horrible fan bias to claim that


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 18, 2016)

Of course not. If Itachi tries that he will get intercepted. He can only pull that off if he can create the same conditions for each kage, like distract them or have them focus on something else.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Of course not. If Itachi tries that he will get intercepted. He can only pull that off if he can create the same conditions for each kage, like distract them or have them focus on something else.



I am really impressed with this post 

Kudos 

Have to rep you . Surprised mostly 

So who do you think wins 

Let's hear your argument . You sounding very reasonable


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> Yeah, that's exactly my point. If Itachi opens with a subtle distraction like Goukakyuu, there's nothing to suggest that Mei would be able to react better to Itachi's Body Flicker better than B did.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah no. Thats also where we disagree. Nodody had to tell KB or Naruto what was happening. They chose to themselves, just like other Edo Tensai have don't throughout the war. 

Bruh really? Letting B know he was there AFTER he was already behind him, would just mean Itachi strikes really slow. In a manga like this, there is no time to let people know where you are after you are already that close.

Yet again it doesn't matter if he was AutoPilot or not. We still know that whatever attack hebwanted to use, he was forced to do it at his best. So whatever strike was used to hit Bee, was either slow as fuck, or Bee already knew itachi was behind him. That last pitch effort to telp bee where he was at when he was inched away from his body wouldn't have worked, if Bee didn't already figure where Itachi was.


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Speech bubbles are a terrible indication of time elapsed. If B didn't need the warning, Itachi wouldn't have given him the warning. Just like Nagato felt the need to give Naruto and B a warning the first time Itachi used his Body Flicker. Naruto didn't need a warning, but B did. It's that simple. It makes sense that Naruto's reflexes operate on a higher level than B's reflexes because Naruto has malice sensing and superior speed--speed which would be useless without the reflexes to match.

"Got it!" in response to "Behind you." doesn't make sense if B already knew Itachi was there. B was essentially saying "OK" in response to Itachi telling him to defend himself. Even if B didn't need the second warning, the fact that Itachi was able to get that close to him is enough for Itachi karate chop Mei in half with Susano'o in a similar situation.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Were gonna have to agree to disagree on whether on not we think those warnings were actually needed. Other Edo have given out warnings that werent really needed tbh
 I don't think KCM Naruto and KB need warnings against Itachi. They are simply above the level of needing that. Just seems like they are the characters to not pay attention at all times, which has happened on multiple occasions.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Nagato saved itachi when killer bee threw his Tanto

Nagato won't have done that if he didn't need to 

Itachi needed saving from a sword throw

That's basically how u arguing


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> Nagato saved itachi when killer bee threw his Tanto
> 
> Nagato won't have done that if he didn't need to
> 
> That's basically how u arguing



You're gonna have to explain that better.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Am criticising the way Saru is arguing 

Bee needed warning hence why itachi warned him

Am saying nagato saved itachi because itachi needed saving


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Were gonna have to agree to disagree on whether on not we think those warnings were actually needed. Other Edo have given out warnings that werent really needed tbh
> I don't think KCM Naruto and KB need warnings against Itachi. They are simply above the level of needing that. Just seems like they are the characters to not pay attention at all times, which has happened on multiple occasions.




Even if you don't think that B needed the warning in the second instance, the fact that Itachi was able to get behind him with his Body Flicker is enough to suggest that Itachi can take out Mei in a similar situation. Mei isn't near B in terms of physical movement speed, and if Itachi is already behind her, he can chop through her with Susano'o and take her out.




Icegaze said:


> Nagato saved itachi when killer bee threw his Tanto
> 
> Nagato won't have done that if he didn't need to
> 
> ...




Itachi had no reason to be concerned about B's sword from that distance because he was an Edo Tensei (not to mention the fact that Nagato was right beside him). B is not an Edo Tensei.


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Itachi didn't react to it 

He couldn't dodge it . Nagato saved him

I could claim killer bee had no reason to keep track of itachi 

He a perfect Jin he can heal or transform at will to simply shit on itachi 

Anyone can make a BS claim 

you can't have it both ways


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Nah. 

That's not how it works. Itachi can kill B. B can't kill Itachi.

There's a difference between having someone behind your back about to light you up and having someone's sword thrown at your immortal body from 50+ meters away.


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## Veracity (Feb 18, 2016)

@Saru

Well my argument isn't even about Mei. My argument is that Itachi needs distractions in order to get the jump on him. He isn't simply fast enough dominate Bee with his flicker.


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

I was never intending to argue that Itachi's Body Flicker could cause problems for B without subtle distractions. 

Goukakyuu + Body Flicker + Susano'o chop seems like a pretty good strategy for taking out Mei quickly.


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## Dr. White (Feb 18, 2016)

Mei actually has some bomb ass durability. She took direct punches from V2 Susanoo, and Bhudda Statue somehow


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

Well, Itachi's V2 hand chopped through Nagato's Asura Path limbs. So I think he'd be able to take her out with that.

Maybe.


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## Dr. White (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> Well, Itachi's V2 hand chopped through Nagato's Asura Path limbs. So I think he'd be able to take her out with that.
> 
> Maybe.



Itachi just knows it's all about the Chop


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## Icegaze (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> Nah.
> 
> That's not how it works. Itachi can kill B. B can't kill Itachi.
> 
> There's a difference between having someone behind your back about to light you up and having someone's sword thrown at your immortal body from 50+ meters away.



Bee can seal itachi though . Itachi had no way of knowing the limits of bee ability 

Weak BS argument u presenting


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)

*@Icegaze:* Not with a sword. 

A sword being thrown at you from someone 50 meters below hardly compares to that person being right behind or above you.


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## Itachі (Feb 18, 2016)

Saru..

:letgo


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## Saru (Feb 18, 2016)




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