# Jaime Lannister vs Robert Baratheon



## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

​
*The Hammer vs The Sword​*
*Location:* Ruby Ford, Trident
*Starting Distance:* 10 meters
*SOM:* Bloodlusted
*Notes:* Prime Robert (Rebellion Era)
- Robert has his war hammer and shield 
- Prime Jaime (Still has sword hand)
- Jaime has the longsword and shield

_Scenario 1:_ On horseback.
_Scenario 2:_ On foot melee.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

Jaimie is good, but prime Robert is just monstrous.


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## Blue (May 3, 2014)

The hammer is the better weapon here; it's made to penetrate plate.

Jaime is the better fighter but is at a disadvantage against someone in full plate. Barristan curbstomping that dothraki ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) is an example of why you don't want to bring a sword to an armor fight, especially not against someone big enough to remain fairly agile in it.

They can't really do anything to each other on horseback.


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## Zaru (May 3, 2014)

Blue said:


> They can't really do anything to each other on horseback.



Why          not?


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## Darth Niggatron (May 3, 2014)

Robert takes it on foot. Horseback can go either way, but Robert has the advantage there, too. A direct hit from Robert on Jaime's shield is likely to unhorse Jaime.


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## Blue (May 3, 2014)

Zaru said:


> Why          not?



Shields and not particularly long weapons, imagine trying to lean out a car window with a warhammer or a sword and nail someone in another car who has a shield and is ready for you.

So you unhorse them, which in a tournament involves a lance but on a battlefield I imagine involves waiting for the smallfolk to do their jobs.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Blue said:


> Shields and not particularly long weapons, imagine trying to lean out a car window with a warhammer or a sword and nail someone in another car who has a shield and is ready for you.
> 
> So you unhorse them, which in a tournament involves a lance but on a battlefield I imagine involves waiting for the smallfolk to do their jobs.


They could just approach the other side instead of swinging across the body.
If they chose not to, then they can still swing at each others horses which very quickly leads to at least one unhorsing.
Either way the war hammer wins against plate.


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## Lord Stark (May 3, 2014)

Blue said:


> The hammer is the better weapon here; it's made to penetrate plate.
> 
> Jaime is the better fighter but is at a disadvantage against someone in full plate. Barristan curbstomping that dothraki ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) is an example of why you don't want to bring a sword to an armor fight, especially not against someone big enough to remain fairly agile in it.
> 
> They can't really do anything to each other on horseback.



Robert killed Rhaegar while presumably on horseback, and I'm pretty certain Rhaegar was a jousting god.  

Now as for this battle, Robert is like the Mountain but faster.  On horseback its not a contest, Jamie is not even Loras-tier on horseback .  On foot melee its closer but the edge still goes to the Usurper.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

I still fail to see where people get the idea that Robert is such a great fighter based solely on the fact that he defeated Rhaegar under unknown conditions. Barristan said that Rhaegar was a good swordsman, but people over-exaggerate that statement. IIRC when asked who the most skilled fighter in Westeros was, GRRM mentioned Jamie Lannister, the Cleganes, Barristan Selmy, but never mentioned Robert in their class. He also said that any fighter can lose to anyone else on any given day, which alone should put Robert besting Rhaegar in the middle of a huge battle while fighting in a river as dubious in terms of powerscaling.

IMO Jamie takes it on horseback. On the ground it's less certain, but Jamie probably takes that as well.



Lord Stark said:


> Robert is like the Mountain but faster.



This is the perfect example of the kind of ridicules wank that Robert gets. He's not even described as being the same height as Hodor, nevermind the Mountain. Gregore wields a 6 foot greatsword with one hand. Furthermore the Mountain is described as a dim man whose skill in battle is all ferocity and instincts. Robert fights like a knight, not a berserker.


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## Blue (May 3, 2014)

Lord Stark said:


> Robert killed Rhaegar while presumably on horseback



I don't know why you're presuming that. .


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## J★J♥ (May 3, 2014)

Was not Jaimie confirmed as superior combatant in his fight with brianne when he realizes that she is physically superior and thinks about roberth and mountain ? 

anyway Jaimie wins only one who beats him 1o1 is Arthur Dane IMO.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

@ Ryjacork

In that GRRM interview was he pointing out the most skilled fighters currently? Even by the first book, Robert was hardly in fighting shape any more, since as King he didnt fight very often - if at all. 

Robert's war hammer was also something Ned Starrk could barely lift, yet Robert could wield it with one hand as well.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Was not Jaimie confirmed as superior combatant in his fight with brianne when he realizes that she is physically superior and thinks about roberth and mountain ?



He said to himself that he could defeat Robert or the Cleganes even though they were stronger than him, but the fact that he believes that doesn't necessarily make it so.



Rivers said:


> @ Ryjacork
> 
> In that GRRM interview was he pointing out the most skilled fighters currently? Even by the first book, Robert was hardly in fighting shape any more, since as King he didnt fight very often - if at all.



At the time of the interview Jamie Lannister only had one hand, so I assumed he was referring to the characters we see as they were in their prime. He also brought up Selmy as an afterthought.



Lord Stark said:


> Robert killed Rhaegar while presumably on horseback, and I'm pretty certain Rhaegar was a jousting god.



1) Jousting does not equate to horseback melee combat.

2) Rhaegar was not a jousting god. Barristan describes him as above average, ranking near the top of several tournaments, but he only ever mentions him winning the tourney at Herenhall. And this, much like the statement about his prowess in battle, only came after Danny pressed him.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 3, 2014)

Robert just needs one good hit, guys.
That will be enough to knock the wind out of Jaime and give Robert the chance for the finishing blow.

The horseback scenario comes down to bringing the opponents stallion down. 
For that the warhammer is the perfect tool. After that Robert has a severe advantage over Jaime.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> At the time of the interview Jamie Lannister only had one hand, so I assumed he was referring to the characters we see as they were in their prime. He also brought up Selmy as an afterthought.



Well, those characters were also still alive despite being past their prime. Unless he also mentioned dead legends like Arthur Dayne.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Robert just needs one good hit, guys.
> That will be enough to knock the wind out of Jaime and give Robert the chance for the finishing blow.



I think you have an unrealistic concept of how weapons and armor work here. Yes if he is able to hit him in the chest, neck, or head it will likely kill or disable him. But a hammer can also be blocked or parried, and he won't have as easy a time swinging it for a full force blow in combat while trying to fend of Jamie. And it's not like armor will allow him to attack with impunity and not worry about being killed. Longswords were designed to spit mail, and it's a faster weapon. Oberyn Martell pierced the Mountains armor multple times with a spear that had a wooden handle. You don't think Jamie can go for Robert's weakspots with a metal longsword? Plus the more armor Robert wears, the slower he's going to be, and the more vulnerable he's going to be to a faster combatant.



> The horseback scenario comes down to bringing the opponents stallion down.
> For that the warhammer is the perfect tool. After that Robert has a severe advantage over Jaime.



 A warhammer is not the perfect tool for bringing down a horse. Either he'd use a two-handed greathammer, in which case he wouldn't be able to ride, or he's use a one handed hammer, which would be difficult to use from the back of a horse, and would have inferior reach to a longsword.

You can't just slash at a horse with a melee weapon. If you do that while mounted, then the other rider will kill you while you're going for the horse, and if you do it on the ground then the thing will kick your face in or trample you as soon as you get close. Warhorses were brought down with spears and arrows, not swords and hammers.



Rivers said:


> Well, those characters were also still alive despite being past their prime. Unless he also mentioned dead legends like Arthur Dayne.


Gregore was dead at that point, possibly the Hound too.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Gregore was dead at that point, possibly the Hound too.



Arthur Dayne at his best was superior to Selmy / Jaime. Unless that interview proves GRRM believes Sandor was clearly better than Arthur Dayne, than it simply indicates who GRRM  off the top of his head thought were great fighters (in their prime), with the four you mentioned coming up since they had notable roles to play (even if it was being killed) at the current time of the story/ interview.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Arthur Dayne at his best was superior to Selmy / Jaime. Unless that interview proves GRRM believes Sandor was clearly better than Arthur Dayne, than it simply indicates who GRRM  off the top of his head thought were great fighters (in their prime), with the four you mentioned coming up since they had notable roles to play (even if it was being killed) at the current time of the story/ interview.



Arthur Dayne died before the start of the series though. Robert was still alive, and thus he could have considered him, even in his prime.

It doesn't really matter though, because the real point of that interview was that even the best warriors in ASOIAF can be killed by almost any other warrior on any given day. We don't know what happened when Robert defeated Rhaegar, and I already listed the reasons why Rhaegar is not so great a warrior that beating him is enough to put Robert tangibly above Jamie. And I certainly don't think Robert is "the Mountain but faster" as somebody else said.

Under ideal conditions I believe that Jamie is a better warrior.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Well from the Battle of the Trident, what we do know is that Robert with his immense strength + heavy hammer, could cave in the breast plate of what would be the finest steel / armour a Prince of Westeros would wear to battle.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Well from the Battle of the Trident, what we do know is that Robert with his immense strength + heavy hammer, could cave in the breast plate of what would be the finest steel / armour a Prince of Westeros would wear to battle.



Finest steel doesn't necessarily make it the most durable. Remember Tywin wears gold armor. That being said, yes the feat is impressive, although not extraordinarily so by war-hammer standards in general.


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## Alucardemi (May 3, 2014)

I'm gonna go with Jaime.

As we've been demonstrated with his fight against Brienne, Jaime is extremely skilled in fighting opponents way stronger than him -- which Brienne was, and still managed to push her back several times before exhaustion kicking in, at the conditions he was in, no less(chained + starved + lethargic). Not to mention how Brienne mentioned that at his peak, she(and any knight she knew in Westeros), wouldn't stand a chance against Jaime. 



> Brienne remembered her fight with Jaime Lannister in the woods. It had been all that she could do to keep his blade at bay. He was weak from his imprisonment, and chained at the wrists. No knight in the Seven Kingdoms could have stood against him at his full strength, with no chains to hamper him. Jaime had done many wicked things, but the man could fight! His maiming had been monstrously cruel. It was one thing to slay a lion, another to hack his paw off and leave him broken and bewildered.



He, of course, mentions that Robert and various others are physically stronger, but says that with speed and skill, he could beat them all. 

Interestingly enough, Barristan was never physically stronger than Jaime(I thought he might've been), which makes sense, I guess, considering their builds. But moving on, its clear to anyone whose read the books that Jaime's strength lies in speed and skill.

You can see GRRM demonstrating that speed and skill in the Battle of The Whispering Wood:



> “He mislaid his sword in Eddard Karstark’s neck, after he took Torrhen’s hand off and split Daryn Hornwood’s skull open,” Robb said. “All the time he was shouting for me. If they hadn’t tried to stop him--”



The implication is pretty clear here. Robb's honor guard tried to jump Jaime when he got too close to Robb(so much so that those three were Robb's last line of defense, according to him) and three guys got flurried into oblivion. Thankfully, or not thankfully, his sword got stuck in Karstark's neck, so Robb remained alive.

Natural swordsmanship? Barristan, a hardcore Jaime hater, has that covered:



> Black as maester’s ink he was, but fast and strong, the best natural swordsman Selmy had seen since Jaime Lannister.



He put that to good use, winning that melee at 13.

Oh, and of course, you can't forget Jaime's best feat; holding his own against The Smiling Knight at no more than 15 years of age. Before even learning from Arthur Dayne in the Kingsguard. Dayne was so impressed that day, he knighted Jaime on the spot. (And saving Lord Crakehall from Big Belly Ben)
Not to mention one quote from God himself on how Jaime is one of the great swordsman of the history of the continent, and another saying that he's arguably the first pick for best active combatant.

Now, the point I'm making is; Jaime has a _metric fuckton_ of evidence for his prowess. You'd be hard-pressed to find a character in the books with more material on his martial prowess than Jaime Lannister, like save people such as Arthur Dayne. The dude has everything. He has statements from God, statements from characters, and several displays of ability.

So, what does Robert have? Well, we know that for one, if he got a clean, two-handed blow on Jaime's breast-plate, it would be over. And even Jaime admits Robert is obviously physically stronger. So, no surprises here.
But aside fom strenght, which would be a no-brainer either way, how has Robert fared in battle against other swordsman? Statements on him from characters and God?

The only time we know Robert fought was against Rhaegar at the trident, under conditions that we can't quite place, but we know that Rhaegar wielded a sword, and wounded Robert to the point Robert himself couldn't continue his mad rush to the throne in Kingslanding, and had to send Ned himself to claim the throne. Rhaegar, by all accounts, would never be placed in Jaime's tier of swordsmanship. That's just not a sound assumption when you consider the evidence Jaime has for his tier, and the statements about Rhaegar. Rhaegar, for all we know, was good. He fought well, he was definitely above average. And he still wounded Robert harshly.

Jaime is several tiers above "above average", he's irrefutably one of the best in the history of his continent.

So, I cannot possibly give this win to Robert considering all of this. Just too much talk for Jaime's martial prowess, with too little evidence on the other side.

Not that Jaime would win every time, mind you. Robert does have a hammer, which is more effective against a sword in this situation. Still, it's also slower, and Jaime knows how to cleave against the hands, neck and head in extremely quick succession.

I give it Jaime, 6~7/10. Robert will definitely win some because all he needs is one direct hit, and no warrior, however great, will win every battle.

I'm not gonna go into horseback with these two, though. It's much more nebulous territory, with many more assumptions thrown in.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Blue said:


> I don't know why you're presuming that. .


If that things design is canonically at least close to what Robert was swinging, then Ned Starks comment about its weight loses all credibility. What kind of fighter can barely lift ten pounds with one hand, even if the majority of that weight is at the end of a stick?



Ryjacork said:


> snip
> Oberyn Martell pierced the Mountains armor multple times with a spear that had a wooden handle. You don't think Jamie can go for Robert's weakspots with a metal longsword? Plus the more armor Robert wears, the slower he's going to be, and the more vulnerable he's going to be to a faster combatant.
> some more snip


He only once went through the plate. To reach the weak spots he had to blind his opponent. Before that all he did was make scratches on the plate.

PS: Gilded armor is not the same as armor made of gold.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

Poxbox said:


> He only once went through the plate. To reach the weak spots he had to blind his opponent. Before that all he did was make scratches on the plate.



He also punched through the mail underneath the joints under the plate before that.


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## Alucardemi (May 3, 2014)

Well, it should be noted that Ned was, like, very young at the time? He was a teenager, if I recall. He wouldn't be very physically developed. Maybe that had something to do with it.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Poxbox said:


> If that things design is canonically at least close to what Robert was swinging, then Ned Starks comment about its weight loses all credibility. What kind of fighter can barely lift ten pounds with one hand, even if the majority of that weight is at the end of a stick?



Mate, 10 pounds is the "model weight" of the hammer. It's a well crafted prop. They have not made an actual war hammer fit for battle, let alone one equivalent to the legendary blacksmith Donal Noye forged for Robert.

That being said, GRRM did consult them during the design process and is probably the most official appearance of Robert's War Hammer you're going to  get. It has an extreme design by real world standards but for ASOFAI is a fantasy. According to GRRM, Robert was a beast with it in his hand and could still hold a shield with the other.

Ned in the story could lift and swing his 5'6" long greatsword but could barely hold up the Hammer. So yeah, it would be heavier than a real world sledge hammer to say the least.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> He also punched through the mail underneath the joints under the plate before that.


That was after blinding him.
1. He scratches at the plate and shouts at the Mountain
2. He loses his spear
3. The stableboy dies
4. The sun comes out


			
				5. said:
			
		

> Prince Oberyn tilted his dinted metal shield. A shaft of sunlight blazed blindingly off polished gold and copper, into the narrow slit of his foe's helm. Clegane lifted his own shield against the glare. Prince Oberyn's spear flashed like lightning and found the gap in the heavy plate, the joint under the arm.


That is the first time he actually gets through. Only after that (against a poisoned and heavily bleeding Mountain) does he get more hits on those weak points.
Roberts plate is not the Mountains' and a longsword isn't a spear, but the situation you were referring to still deserves an accurate representation.



Rivers said:


> Mate, 10 pounds is the "model weight" of the hammer. It's a well crafted prop. They have not made an actual war hammer fit for battle, let alone one equivalent to the legendary blacksmith Donal Noye forged for Robert.


Do tell how weapon steel is much heavier than model steel. A sturdier shaft does not add 30 pounds and the weight differences between steel types are minimal.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

Remember Valyrian steel is lighter than normal metals, so Ice probably isn't as heavy as your typical greatsword. Also teenagers are strong in Martin's world. Jon lifted Alliser Thorne into the air by his throat, and he was only something like 16 at the time.



Poxbox said:


> That was after blinding him.
> 1. He scratches at the plate and shouts at the Mountain
> 2. He loses his spear
> 3. The stableboy dies
> 4. The sun comes out



I have no idea what you are trying to say with that series of statements. 2 and 3 have nothing to do with 1 and 4, and none of them have anything to do with my original point, which was that a wood handled spear was able to punch through mail, and then later plate, so armor would not completely protect someone from being killed by a longsword.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Remember Valyrian steel is lighter than normal metals, so Ice probably isn't as heavy as your typical greatsword. Also teenagers are strong in Martin's world. Jon lifted Alliser Thorne into the air by his throat, and he was only something like 16 at the time.
> 
> 
> 
> I have no idea what you are trying to say with that series of statements. 2 and 3 have nothing to do with 1 and 4, that's not the order things happened in, and none of them have anything to do with my original point, which was that a wood handled spear was able to punch through mail, and then later plate, so armor would not completely protect someone from being killed by a longsword.


That is precisely the order it happens. I won't type up the entire fight. It starts on page 971. He shouts and scrapes for two pages, loses intentionally drops his spear, flees (yes he flees "headlong backwards flight" are the exact words) and uses the time it takes the Mountain to kill the stableboy to recover both his spear and composure. Every hit that did anything was on a basically incapacitated enemy. He only pierced the plate when he put his full weight into a jumping attack on a helpless Mountain who is lying on the ground. That same attack also snaps the spears shaft.
It just isn't as easy to get to those weak spots as you make it out to be. Or at least in Oberyns fight against the Mountain it certainly wasn't.


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Well, it should be noted that Ned was, like, very young at the time? He was a teenager, if I recall. He wouldn't be very physically developed. Maybe that had something to do with it.



Ned was 19. For a labour intensive world such as ASOFAI, where Ned squired along side the beast Robert for most of his adolescent life, regardless of his acquired combat skill, Id say he would be equivalent to a real world 19-year-old who has been lifting for at least a couple of years.   



Poxbox said:


> Do tell how weapon steel is much heavier than model steel. A sturdier shaft does not add 30 pounds and the weight differences between steel types are minimal.



GRRM, the god of this fiction says Ned could NOT lift it up off the ground. Your basically telling me that Ned a castle-trained nobel in a world of sword and armour, could not lift a barbell people here in the real world use with one hand to tone (not even bulk up) their bicep / tricep muscles. Even a 19 year old guy who has never set foot in the gym could lift up 4 kgs with two hands.

That's four milk cartons with two hands.

The heavier the hammer, the more costly the shipping costs to deliver.


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## Gone (May 3, 2014)

Poxbox said:


> That is precisely the order it happens. I won't type up the entire fight. It starts on page 971. He shouts and scrapes for two pages, loses his spear, flees (yes he flees "headlong backwards flight" are the exact words) and uses the time it takes the Mountain to kill the stableboy to recover both his spear and composure. Every hit that did anything was on a basically incapacitated enemy. He only pierced the plate when he put his full weight into a jumping attack on a helpless Mountain who is lying on the ground. That same attack also snaps the spears shaft.
> It just isn't as easy to get to those weak spots as you make it out to be. Or at least in Oberyns fight against the Mountain it certainly wasn't.



No you were right about the order, I edited that. I forgot that he lost his spear once before it snapped. 

I never said that it would be easy to kill someone in full armor. My point was that armor wouldn't allow Robert to attack with impunity and not worry about protecting himself, as others seemed to be implying.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Ned was 19. For a labour intensive world such as ASOFAI, where Ned squired along side the beast Robert for most of his adolescent life, regardless of his acquired combat skill, Id say he would be equivalent to a real world 19-year-old who has been lifting for at least a couple of years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I know. And you don't see conflict between that description and the GRRM approved model?
All I am saying is that one of those has to be way off.


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## Poxbox (May 3, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> No you were right about the order, I edited that. I forgot that he lost his spear once before it snapped.
> 
> I never said that it would be easy to kill someone in full armor. My point was that armor wouldn't allow Robert to attack with impunity and not worry about protecting himself, as others seemed to be implying.


Then we're pretty much on the same page now (pun absolutely intended).


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## Rivers (May 3, 2014)

Poxbox said:


> I know. And you don't see conflict between that description and the GRRM approved model?
> All I am saying is that one of those has to be way off.



And its pretty obvious which one it is.

They never sent GRRM the weight of the model, because they never made it yet. They wanted his input on the design and scale. GRRM replies, 



Till he eventually approved the below.



They already had manufacturing problems due to it's size, as if they were going to make it so heavy it could cave steel-hardened breastplate all day long (which Robert probably did at the Battle of Summer Hall against 3 armies in one day).


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## Alucardemi (May 3, 2014)

Now, I don't know much about historical martial arts, but if I were a swordsman of Jaime's caliber, I think against a guy who swings in large arcs and such, I'd try and go for the hands/arms. Even if they're plated, if Jaime hits your wrists/fingers with a slash, I think it's bound to at least break a few bones.

But, like I said, I don't know much of historical martial arts, and I don't know if Robb's Royal Guard was wearing plate when Jaime cut the hand, cleaved the skull and pierced their necks.


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## Blue (May 3, 2014)

If you think 10 pounds is light, try tying a 10lb weight (2x 2 liter bottles full of water) to the end of a broomstick and try swinging it. You will learn something about leverage.

Nevertheless, that is the prop weight. The hammer likely has a wooden core. Warhammers that big didn't exist in reality.


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## Sferr (May 4, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I'm gonna go with Jaime.
> 
> As we've been demonstrated with his fight against Brienne, Jaime is extremely skilled in fighting opponents way stronger than him -- which Brienne was, and still managed to push her back several times before exhaustion kicking in, at the conditions he was in, no less(chained + starved + lethargic). Not to mention how Brienne mentioned that at his peak, she(and any knight she knew in Westeros), wouldn't stand a chance against Jaime.
> 
> ...



I agree with this. When I was reading the books, I definitely did not have an impression that Robert was on Jaime's level, really. Yeah, he defeated Rhaegar, but Rhaegar himself was not even close to Jaime.

About horseback, Cersei once thought that Robert was a very average jouster after she slipped that Tommen's father was one of the best jousters in the kingdom and had to lie herself out of that one because while Jaime was one of the best, Robert was far from one.


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## Rivers (May 4, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Now, I don't know much about historical martial arts, but if I were a swordsman of Jaime's caliber, I think against a guy who swings in large arcs and such, I'd try and go for the hands/arms. Even if they're plated, if Jaime hits your wrists/fingers with a slash, I think it's bound to at least break a few bones.



Full plate would be made from hardened steel, which is what the edge of swords are made of. So hitting full plate with your sword is similar to hitting another sword. Your sword either ricochets off the plate or the plate moves back (most likely a bit of both) but unlikely to cut the plate (otherwise it's like cutting another sword with your own).

A longsword's effectiveness is dependent on its edge and point. It's meant to lacerate the body to cause severe bleeding and rapture organs. It only ever damages the bones if the bone it impacts has nowhere else to move but bare the brunt of the sword swing (not usual since unless the sword edge hits straight on, it will likely glance away reducing the force severely), that's with plate protection mind you. 

A swing at the wrists encased in a steel gauntlet wouldn't break bones. The wrist would sooner follow the direction of the swing after impact, before the bones themselves receive enough force to fracture. The steel plate would prevent the sword edge from rupturing the skin and hence stop the cut to the flesh/muscles to cause bleeding - which is what standard one-handed swords are supposed to do. 



> But, like I said, I don't know much of historical martial arts, and I don't know if Robb's Royal Guard was wearing plate when Jaime cut the hand, cleaved the skull and pierced their necks.



Based on GRRM's own inverse events, he acknowledges that plate armour is highly resilient to regular sword strikes. 



			
				Victorian Greyjoy vs Ser Talbert Serry said:
			
		

> “You!” the iron captain called across the carnage. “You of the rose! Be you the lord of Southshield?” The other raised his visor to show a beardless face.
> “His son and heir. Ser Talbert Serry. And who are you, kraken?”
> “Your death.”
> 
> ...





			
				Victorian Greyjoy vs Southshield Men said:
			
		

> They hacked at him from front and back, *but their swords might have been willow switches for all the harm they did him. No blade could cut through Victarion Greyjoy’s plate,* nor did he give his foes the time to find the weak points at the joints, where only mail and leather warded him.* Let three men assail him, or four, or five; it made no matter. He slew them one at a time, trusting in his steel to protect him from the others.* As each foe fell he turned his wroth upon the next.



The joints between the steel plate is the required way to damage Robert in his plate armour, that is if you're using a longsword.


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## Alucardemi (May 4, 2014)

I thought the neck/wrist were locations for joints in plate armor? I thought that would be so, at least to give those areas some flexibility of movement.

Either way, though, I'm sure Jaime knows alot more about armored combat with a longsword than I do.


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## Rivers (May 4, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I thought the neck/wrist were locations for joints in plate armor? I thought that would be so, at least to give those areas some flexibility of movement.
> 
> Either way, though, I'm sure Jaime knows alot more about armored combat with a longsword than I do.



The gorget covers the neck area and what actually connects the helm to the body. That's what stopped Oberyn's spear thrusts against Gregor, managing in only producing noise rather than damage.

Victorian Greyjoy *stopped dead* a downward slash of a *castle-forged longsword*, with one hand and pried it off the knight. Gauntlets have overlapping steel over the wrist anyway.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

Jamie is very balanced so while he's not as strong as Robert, he's faster and more agile(we don't have much on Robert though he did beat Rhaegar who was more slender and arguably faster than him so perhaps depending on his speed vs Jamie's it may work or not) plus arguably more skilled. If he does'nt fight like an idiot especially.

Jamie despite being tortured, rusting away for 6+ months, poor health and hands tied was still from Brienne's POV a frightening opponent, he just let his sexist views of women(Brienne exploits this as per POV of fights against men in general as the idea of losing to a woman angers them to make mistakes and burn themselves out) get the better of him and Brienne still barely fending him off from her POV though Jamie's POV gave her more respect. 

Jamie was knighted by Arthur Dayne himself. He's considered to be one of the greatest swordsmen in history. Victarion wanted to fight him, The Golden company men made reference to how "the Lannister bitch(Cersei)" would have the Kingslayer on them so even certain members of an elite Mercenary company fear him. Jamie says he was better than Loras(also considered a prodigy) when he was younger and Loras does not deny it, he just says that Jamie is now older and that was in the past in his prime. We saw what Loras could do at Dragonstone despite the condition he ended up in and he was 1/2 opponents Victarion besides Jamie wanted to fight. But perhaps Loras is'nt the best argument for Jamie.



> Yeah, he defeated Rhaegar, but Rhaegar himself was not even close to Jaime.



Rhaegar is an unknown outside everyone hyping how he was good at anything he touched including fighting. The best he has was giving Prime Robert a fight and even injuring him before being crushed by the giant hammer.

I also think Jamie is better than either but let's not stick too much towards an unknown like Rhaegar.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

> Jaime is extremely skilled in fighting opponents way stronger than him -- which Brienne was



Prime Robert wielded a giant hammer and beatdown opponents in tourneys(as per Cersei recalling in one of her POV) and despite being intoxicated/drugged in a time he was WAY past his prime he took a wild boar down with him. 

I don't think Brienne is Prime Robert level strength and she was struggling against Biter in a fight who I'm not sure if he's super skilled or not let alone Robert's level(who was considered a damn good fighter). While I agree Jamie could counter Robert's strength, Brienne arguably is'nt Robert level.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Briene was always fodder to me, when it comes to the big picture.
She just never really impressed me and seemed more like she had delusions of grandeur.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

She was praised her by teacher as per her POV chapter where she's recalling her past, did win Renly's tournament(regardless of the Loras fight she arguably had to beat others) and Jamie from his POV gave her praise. She's good at beating up generic sellswords or bandits or average knights but against a good fighter(assuming Biter is even considered good) she'd do horribly.


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

Brienne personally beat down several skilled fighters in the melee, including Loras Tyrell and Harry Potter (It's true, check it out) 





> In the melee at Bitterbridge she had sought out her suitors and battered them one by one, Farrow and Ambrose and Bushy, Mark Mullendore and Raymond Nayland and Will the Stork. *She had ridden over Harry Sawyer and broken Robin Potter’s helm, giving him a nasty scar.*



The fact that she could split open somebody's helm speaks to her strength, as well as the lack of invulnerability of armor in ASOIAF.

I wouldn't say she's top tier, but if you think that she's fodder then you need to seriously reread ACoK and AFfC. She was handicapped in the fight with Jamie as well btw. She had an arrow in her back and she was trying to beat him without hurting him.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

Loras was on horseback and required some unorthodox style to pick up the win(though as Jamie notes or think it was him that the balance required in horseback for such tourneys can be useful in a fight). Forgot that excerpt, good strength for Brienne then, she's a freak of nature.


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## Sferr (May 4, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Rhaegar is an unknown outside everyone hyping how he was good at anything he touched including fighting. The best he has was giving Prime Robert a fight and even injuring him before being crushed by the giant hammer.
> 
> I also think Jamie is better than either but let's not stick too much towards an unknown like Rhaegar.



Why, we have Barristan's words about him, when Dany thought Rhaegar was the best of the best and Barristan was gently trying to tell her that was not true without disappointing her.

_"King," Dany corrected. "He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?" His answer had not been one that she'd expected. "Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?"

"Your Grace," said Whitebeard, "the Prince of Dragonstone was a most puissant warrior, but . . . "

"Go on," she urged. "You may speak freely to me."

"As you command." The old man leaned upon his hardwood staff, his brow furrowed. "A warrior without peer . . . those are fine words, Your Grace, but words win no battles."_


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

Another thing about the battle between Rhaegar and Robert in the Ruby ford that should be noted is that they were actually fighting _in_ the river. Under those circumstances, a larger man like Robert wielding a hammer would have a terrain advantage over a smaller man like Rhaegar with a sword. So Robert winning that fight doesn't necessarily make him a better warrior than Rhaegar.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

^ Wouldn't it be the opposite.
A man of Roberts stature should be far more encumbered by the water.
Plus a sword moves far better in a denser environment, than a clunky hammer.


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## Rivers (May 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> ^ Wouldn't it be the opposite.
> A man of Roberts stature should be far more encumbered by the water.
> Plus a sword moves far better in a denser environment, than a clunky hammer.



That makes sense.


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> ^ Wouldn't it be the opposite.
> A man of Roberts stature should be far more encumbered by the water.
> Plus a sword moves far better in a denser environment, than a clunky hammer.



The water would encumber movement, which would prevent Rhaegar from taking full advantage of his agility, which he would need to defeat a larger and stronger man like Robert. Imagine if Oberyn had to fight the mountain without being able to scoot around him the way he did. And remember what Bronn said about the prospect of fighting Gregor: "Might be I could take him. Dance around him until he was so tired of hacking at me that he couldn't lift his sword."

The hammer has an advantage over a longsword in a stationary fight as well. There's only a few ways you can swing a big warhammer, and as was noted earlier, it can be deadly against armor no matter where it hits. With a longsword on the other hand, Rhaegar would have had to go for the neck, the armpits, the back of the knees, etc. and this would require him being able to move around.

Plus as a larger, heavier man, Robert would be more weighed down and less likely to be taken off his feet by the water. IIRC the Mountain crossed a river at the Battle of the Fords while being feathered by arrows.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

Sferr said:


> Why, we have Barristan's words about him, when Dany thought Rhaegar was the best of the best and Barristan was gently trying to tell her that was not true without disappointing her.
> 
> _"King," Dany corrected. "He was a king, though he never reigned. Viserys, the Third of His Name. But what do you mean?" His answer had not been one that she'd expected. "Ser Jorah named Rhaegar the last dragon once. He had to have been a peerless warrior to be called that, surely?"
> 
> ...



Barristan in that same POV chapter IIRC makes it clear Rhaegar lost fights too. He was clearly not peerless as Arthur Dayne and Barristan(who'd be almost two decades younger than his GOT and especially AFFC/ADWD self who could still own a skilled mercenary with a stick) were around then. Unless he's implying he was better than anyone around his age group but peerless generally does not mean that.

I agree Rhaegar was good, everyone speaks highly of his prodigical capabilities of fighting, riding, music and scholaristic knowledge but whether he was the best is doubtful. Dayne is considered the best by many with only Selmy considered the closest to him(some believing him to the best and word of god saying Prime Selmy=Prime Dayne).

The only feat outside not horseback was against Robert. His skill with a lance is very good as he could fight the best of the best and his riding skills also up there, that requires good balance as per Jamie in his AFFC POV chapters watching Loras. He was good but where he stacks upto Jamie Prime and others is unknown, though doubtful he's THAT good considering he rarely fought but if we get more info on his combat abilities that could change.


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## Sferr (May 4, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Barristan in that same POV chapter IIRC makes it clear Rhaegar lost fights too. He was clearly not peerless as Arthur Dayne and Barristan(who'd be almost two decades younger than his GOT and especially AFFC/ADWD self who could still own a skilled mercenary with a stick) were around then. Unless he's implying he was better than anyone around his age group but peerless generally does not mean that.
> 
> I agree Rhaegar was good, everyone speaks highly of his prodigical capabilities of fighting, riding, music and scholaristic knowledge but whether he was the best is doubtful. Dayne is considered the best by many with only Selmy considered the closest to him(some believing him to the best and word of god saying Prime Selmy=Prime Dayne).
> 
> The only feat outside not horseback was against Robert. His skill with a lance is very good as he could fight the best of the best and his riding skills also up there, that requires good balance as per Jamie in his AFFC POV chapters watching Loras. He was good but where he stacks upto Jamie Prime and others is unknown, though doubtful he's THAT good considering he rarely fought but if we get more info on his combat abilities that could change.



I agree with you, I'm arguing that we can tell that Rhaegar was not in Jaime's tier from Barristan's words. In the quote I have given it is Dany who is saying that Rhaegar was a peerless warrior and Barristan is clearly saying that was just not true. Rhaegar was a great warrior but no Arthur Dayne. And Jaime is in Dayne's tier.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 4, 2014)

Jamie is not Dayne's tier, he's someone whose skill level and characteristics that Jamie wishes to replicate/become like. Prime Barristan is Prime Dayne's tier, let that sink in.


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## Sferr (May 4, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Jamie is not Dayne's tier, he's someone whose skill level and characteristics that Jamie wishes to replicate/become like. Prime Barristan is Prime Dayne's tier, let that sink in.



Straight from the author's mouth, Jaime is one of the best warriors in the _history_ of Westeros. GRRM believed Jaime would defeat Aragorn. So yeah, Jaime is definitely in Dayne's tier. Prime Barristan, prime Arthur Dayne without Dawn and Prime Jaime are approximately similar in skill and would be able to defeat each other on different days.


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

I don't see why people are so determined to put Dayne in a tier of his own. All we have to go on are statements from other characters, some of which are clearly exaggerated, such as him being able to solo the current kingsguard with one hand while pissing with the other.

The only two combat feats that I recall are him defeating the Smiling Knight after an extended duel (whom Jamie also crossed swords with as only a squire), and the battle at the Tower of Joy. These are impressive, but no more so than what we saw many other accomplished warriors do, Syrio Forel for example.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 4, 2014)

Sferr said:


> Straight from the author's mouth, Jaime is one of the best warriors in the _history_ of Westeros. GRRM believed Jaime would defeat Aragorn. So yeah, Jaime is definitely in Dayne's tier. Prime Barristan, prime Arthur Dayne without Dawn and Prime Jaime are approximately similar in skill and would be able to defeat each other on different days.



That's meaningless.
The number one fighter can still be way above the number two, but both of them would still be counted among the best warriors in history.


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> The number one fighter can still be way above the number two



Not in Martin's writing, he grounds his characters in realism. As was stated earlier, there's often a narrow margin of skill that separates different warriors, and any of them could win or lose a battle under the right conditions.


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## Sferr (May 4, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Not in Martin's writing, he grounds his characters in realism. As was stated earlier, there's often a narrow margin of skill that separates different warriors, and any of them could win or lose a battle under the right conditions.



This. 


Here is what Barristan says about the matter:

_"He did, ser, but . . . I have seen a hundred tournaments and more wars than I would wish, and however strong or fast or skilled a knight may be, there are others who can match him. A man will win one tourney, and fall quickly in the next. A slick spot in the grass may mean defeat, or what you ate for supper the night before. A change in the wind may bring the gift of victory." He glanced at Ser Jorah. "Or a lady's favor knotted round an arm."_

And we know that Arthur Dayne lost in many tourneys.

Here is also a quote, where Jaime think he could beat him:

_ "Robert had been stronger than him, to be sure. The White Bull Gerold Hightower as well, in his heyday, and Ser Arthur Dayne. Amongst the living, Greatjon Umber was stronger, Strongboar of Crakehall most likely, both Cleganes for a certainty. The Mountain's strength was like nothing human. It did not matter. With speed and skill, Jaime could beat them all."_ 

It can be said that Jaime is biased, but Arthur Dayne was his idol that he admired and admires still and Jaime was the one who said that Arthur Dayne could take 5 kingsguards with his left hand while taking a piss with his right.


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## Alucardemi (May 4, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Prime Robert wielded a giant hammer and beatdown opponents in tourneys(as per Cersei recalling in one of her POV) and despite being intoxicated/drugged in a time he was WAY past his prime he took a wild boar down with him.
> 
> I don't think Brienne is Prime Robert level strength and she was struggling against Biter in a fight who I'm not sure if he's super skilled or not let alone Robert's level(who was considered a damn good fighter). While I agree Jamie could counter Robert's strength, Brienne arguably is'nt Robert level.



Oh, I wasn't implying that Brienne was Robert-level strong. Forgive the confusion if I did, but I was only pointing that out to highlight that Jaime's strenght is in speed and skill, and the fact that he can realize when an opponent is physically stronger than him, and then change his style accordingly.


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## Rivers (May 4, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Not in Martin's writing, he grounds his characters in realism. As was stated earlier, there's often a narrow margin of skill that separates different warriors, and any of them could win or lose a battle under the right conditions.



So Robert could indeed win against Jaime then, or is Jaime's skill so far above Robert that's a no?

Jaime is stuck in the river just like Rhaegar.

Robert did smash 3 armies in the one day, and unlike a commander directing his army from the rear, Robert was in the thick of it each time. Should suggest besides strength, Robert had great stamina and endurance as well.


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## Alucardemi (May 4, 2014)

Rivers said:


> So Robert could indeed win against Jaime then, or is Jaime's skill so far above Robert that's a no?.



Of course it wouldn't just be a huge no. I doubt anyone can say that. That's why ASOIF battles should always be how many wins would it go out of 10. It would be very, very, very rare for a fighter to best another 10 out of 10 times, even if he's a top-tier like Dayne, or Jaime or whoever.

Martin does set his universe on some bounds realism with the Barristan quote, at least for knightly combat, and as an example of that, Jorah Mormont was able to win the finals against Jaime in a tourney after something like 9 tilts because of several external factors(mostly he was obsessed with impressing a girl), even though Jorah is nowhere near as good a jouster as Jaime on a consistent basis, who regularly reached finals and semi-finals and won against other consistent jousters.

In this case, I'd give Jaime a win with something like 7/10 matches.


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## Rivers (May 4, 2014)

^ Im curious, in a stand up sword fight how many matches out of 10 would you give Jaime against Jorah Mormont?


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## Gone (May 4, 2014)

Rivers said:


> So Robert could indeed win against Jaime then, or is Jaime's skill so far above Robert that's a no?



Robert could win. I never meant to imply that he couldn't, just that I believe under optimal conditions Jamie is more skilled. Not sure what kind of number I'd put on it.

Idk about Jorah. IIRC he killed a few Dothraki who were mouthing off about his armor, but I don't know if he fought them all at once, or how many there were. He also killed one of Drogo's bloodriders, but in doing so he took a pretty serious injury. I think he's a skilled warrior, but not in the same tier as Robert or Jamie.


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## Alucardemi (May 4, 2014)

Rivers said:


> ^ Im curious, in a stand up sword fight how many matches out of 10 would you give Jaime against Jorah Mormont?



Against Jorah in a sword-fight? 9/10. Jorah is not a prodigal warrior in any sense of the word -- his win against Jaime in jousting is basically what you could call a fluke, and even then, Jaime is a far better swordsman than jouster, even though he is a terrific jouster.

Robert and Jaime are far above the likes of Jorah, without a doubt. They'd win almost everytime, if not everytime.


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## Rivers (May 5, 2014)

Thinking about it, Jaime needs to be avoiding Robert's swings to have him tire out, and then come in close to strike while his movement has slowed. Once in range, he has to stab Robert behind the knees, under the arms, or through his visor / helm to cause injury. He may be able to stab through Robert's breast plate (large target area) but he would need line in up perfectly, and use two hands full force to drive it through. 

Concerns include Robert having beastly stamina, and if Robert manages to move his body to missalign Jaimie's thrust before it penetrates his breast plate, he's up close with zero damage on Robert - while in range of the Usurper's strength.

Now, if Robert plants a hammer hit on say Jaime's thigh, shoulder, or arms I'd wager Jaime is not using those limbs for the rest of the battle. If it's only a glancing blow, Jaime is still taking a dip in the river. The force of something heavier than even a fit (probably 5'10" tall), 19-year-old Ned Starrk couldn't lift...making contact with you - however briefly would set you off balance. Jaime may not be injured, but it's about him getting up on his feet before the the bull Robert barrels down a killing blow on you. 

Concerns include Jaime's speed and accurate sword strikes, however the river hampers Jaime's speed attribute, and even obscures his view of weak points between plate joints behind Robert's legs. While again, Jaime's whole body is a suitable target for Robert's hammer, and even a sword in the hands of Jaime is not clashing or parrying a sledge slam targeted to his body. Get out of the way!

I'll give this to Robert 7/10 in melee on dry land.

In the river, I'll give Robert 8/10 in melee.


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## J★J♥ (May 5, 2014)

Rivers said:


> ^ Im curious, in a stand up sword fight how many matches out of 10 would you give Jaime against Jorah Mormont?



10 out of 10.

Considering how godlike George RR Martin thinks Jaime is.

He bealives that Jaime could defeat Aragorn without too much trouble, yet says that Mountain would lose to Gimly.

Also Barristan who himself claimed to be able to solo Kingsguard w/o Jaime rates him as N1 swordsman.

Come on people the Guy was fighting on par with elite such as Smiling Knight when he was 14/15 and got knighted the moment Arthur Dane saw him fight and afer that he only improved. 

He was steamrolling  Robs elite guards until his sword got stuck in someones neck, if he had valeryan sword there Rob Stark would be butchered right on the spot. He could hold his own against brianne with tied hands when he could barely stand there is absolutely no chance for him to lose against anyone in the books in fair fight.

And for the ones of you who think that SK was just a regular swordsmen you should know that he fought on par with Prime Arthur Dane, until "Dawn" shattered his sword.

And you should consider that Jaimie become N1 swordsmen with pure skill he never owned magical swords crafted with dragons breath or from fallen stars like people on his level did.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 5, 2014)

Jorah Mormont is an average knight at best so he'd get beaten down.



> his win against Jaime in jousting is basically what you could call a fluke,



Barristan under his alias hints it was something to do with the wind, it anger Jorah in Dany's presence so I assume he hit a nerve. This was before it was revealed Arstan was Barristan.


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## Tranquil Fury (May 5, 2014)

Sferr said:


> Straight from the author's mouth, Jaime is one of the best warriors in the _history_ of Westeros. GRRM believed Jaime would defeat Aragorn. So yeah, Jaime is definitely in Dayne's tier. Prime Barristan, prime Arthur Dayne without Dawn and Prime Jaime are approximately similar in skill and would be able to defeat each other on different days.



Aragorn would trounce Jamie but that's neither here nor there, writers claiming their characters can beat someone else's characters has no validity. Jamie is one of the best sure but then so would Dayne, Selmy and others. "one of the best in history" could mean top 30 or even top 50 out of many thousands of warriors throughout 3000+ years.

Infact here's some feats from Selmy



> Originally posted by *ASOS*
> Ser Barristan of House Selmy. Firstborn son of Ser Lyonel Selmy of Harvest Hall. Served as squire to Ser Manfred Swann. Named “the Bold” in his 10th year, when he donned borrowed armor to appear as a mystery knight in the tourney at Blackhaven, where he was defeated and unmasked by Duncan, Prince of Dragonflies. *Knighted in his 16th year by King Aegon V Targaryen, after performing great feats of prowess as a mystery knight in the winter tourney at King’s Landing, defeating Prince Duncan the Small and Ser Duncan the Tall, Lord Commander of the Kingsguard*. Slew Maelys the Monstrous, last of the Blackfyre Pretenders, in single combat during the War of the Ninepenny Kings. Defeated Lormelle Long Lance and Cedrik Storm, the Bastard of Bronzegate. Named to the Kingsguard in his 23rd year, by Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower. *Defended the passage against all challengers in the tourney of the Silver Bridge. Victor in the meddle at Maidenpool. Brought King Aerys II to safety during the Defiance of Duskendale, despite an arrow wound in the chest*. Avenged the murder of his Sworn Brother, Ser Gwayne Gaunt. *Rescued Lady Jeyne Swann and her septa from the Kingswood Brotherhood, defeating Simon Toyne and the Smiling Knight, and slaying the former*. In the Oldtown tourney, defeated and unmasked the mystery knight Blackshield, revealing him as the Bastard of Uplands. Sole champion of Lord Steffon’s tourney at Storm’s End, whereat he unhorsed Lord Robert Baratheon, Prince Oberyn Martell, Lord Leyton Hightower, Lord Jon Connington, Lord Jason Mallister, and Prince Rhaegar Targaryen. Wounded by arrow, spear, and sword at the Battle of the Trident whilst fighting beside his Sworn Brothers and Rhaegar Prince of Dragonstone. Pardoned, and named Lord Commander of the Kingsguard, by King Robert I Baratheon. Served in the honor guard that brought Lady Cersei of House Lannister to King’s Landing to wed King Robert. Led the attack on Old Wyk during Balon Greyjoy’s Rebellion. *Champion of the tourney at King’s Landing, in his 57th year*.



His resume in the Whitebook is one of the most impressive compared to Jamie's which was very small. This is not counting 60 year Barristan/Arstan owning a skilled mercenary Mero with a stick



> Originally posted by *ASOS*
> Mero wiped his sword on his breeches. “Who’s next?”
> “I am.” Arstan Whitebeard leapt from his horse and stood over her, the salt wind riffling through his snowy hair, both hands on his tall hardwood staff.
> “Grandfather,” Mero said, “run off before I break your stick in two and bugger you with -”
> *The old man feinted with one end of the staff, pulled it back, and whipped the other end about faster than Dany would have believed. The Titan’s Bastard staggered back into the surf, spitting blood and broken teeth from the ruin of his mouth. Whitebeard put Dany behind him. Mero slashed at his face. The old man jerked back, cat-quick. The staff thumped Mero’s ribs, sending him reeling. Arstan splashed sideways, parried a looping cut, danced away from a second, checked a third mid-swing. The moves were so fast she could hardly follow. Missandei was pulling Dany to her feet when she heard a crack. She thought Arstan’s staff had snapped until she saw the jagged bone jutting from Mero’s calf. As he fell, the Titan’s Bastard twisted and lunged, sending his point straight at the old man’s chest. Whitebeard swept the blade aside almost contemptuously and smashed the other end of his staff against the big man’s temple. Mero went sprawling, blood bubbling from his mouth as the waves washed over him*. A moment later the freedmen washed over him too, knives and stones and angry fists rising and falling in a frenzy.





> Originally posted by *ASOS*
> The loud refusal was surprise enough. Stranger still, it came from both men at once. Ser Jorah drew his sword. “The Titan’s Bastard was a nasty piece of work. *And good at killing*. Who are you, old man?”



Arstan laying the smackdown on him with a stick is something that made Jorah suspicious. 

Prime Barristan>>60 year old Barristan especially when not wielding a stick



> Originally posted by* GOT*
> Ned replied. “On the Trident, *Ser Barristan here cut down a dozen good men, Robert’s friends and mine. When they brought him to us, grievously wounded and near death*



Barristan at 50 or so years fought through the Trident with accumulating injuries, a feat noted in the Whitebook. He cut through a dozen men himself. Now imagine Prime Barristan.



> Originallly posted by *COK*
> Something his father had told him once when he was little came back to him suddenly. *He had asked Lord Eddard if the Kingsguard were truly the finest knights in the Seven Kingdoms. “No longer,” he answered, “but once they were a marvel, a shining lesson to the world.”
> “Was there one who was best of all?”
> “The finest knight I ever saw was Ser Arthur Dayne, who fought with a blade called Dawn, forged from the heart of a fallen star. They called him the Sword of the Morning, and he would have killed me but for Howland Reed.” Father had gotten sad then, and he would say no more*. Bran wished he had asked him what he meant



Now if you want you can say finest may not be meaning skill. Dayne was famous both for his uber skill and character so either could apply though Bran's "best of all" could be taken as skill or character or both criteria as well.



> Originally posted *GOT*
> His father would be with him, and the king with all his knights and sworn swords.Bran was going to be a knight himself someday, *one of the Kingsguard. Old Nan said they were the finest swords in all the realm*. There were only seven of them, and they wore white armor and had no wives or children, but lived only to serve the king. *Bran knew all the stories. Their names were like music to him. Serwyn of the Mirror Shield. Ser Ryam Redwyne. Prince Aemon the Dragonknight. The twins Ser Erryk and Ser Arryk, who had died on one another’s swords hundreds of years ago, when brother fought sister in the war the singers called the Dance of the Dragons. The White Bull, Gerold Hightower. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Barristan the Bold*





> Originally posted by *GOT*
> The greatest living knight was Ser Barristan Selmy, Barristan the Bold, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard



To be fair this is probabling in terms of resume/legend status.



> Originally posted by *GOT*
> 'Have no fear, sers, your king is safe... no thanks to you. *Even now, I could cut through the five of you as easy as a dagger cuts cheese*. If you would serve under the Kingslayer, not a one of you is fit to wear the white. Here, boy. Melt it down and add it to the others, if you like. It will do you more good than the swords in the hands of these five. Perhaps Lord Stannis will chance to sit on it when he takes your throne



Probably overconfidence but he believed he even at his current age was well beyond The Kingsguard at that point barring Jamie. 

Dayne and also Barristan at one point were considered the greatest knights in terms of combat capabilities and character. Jamie even ignoring the Kingslayer shame is not in terms of combat, he's considered very good but outside Jamie himself, his family and Brienne no one has rated him so high as the best.

Jamie at 15 years or so "held his own" against the Smilight Knight(depends on how long or well he did it too) but Barristan already defeated the same Knight despite being in his 40s or so and Dayne had wounded the Smiling Knight a dozen times even allowing him to switch weapons and off him(though Dawn was a facor). 

Dayne and Selmy are held in legendary status for their skills as much as their character/deeds, an aura not given to Jamie in either. He's considered very good and dangerous but Selmy and Dayne are like something from a myth.

Someone mentioned Syrio. He held off multiple guards and a Kingsguard with a wooden stick, that's one of the best feats in the novels actually but he's an unknown himself.


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## ClandestineSchemer (May 5, 2014)

Syrio was also the first sword of Braavos, so he must be way up there.
I doubt the best swordsmen in Braavos, wouldn't be able to rank among the best in the verse.


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## Poxbox (May 5, 2014)

ClandestineSchemer said:


> Syrio was also the first sword of Braavos, so he must be way up there.
> I doubt the best swordsmen in Braavos, wouldn't be able to rank among the best in the verse.


That is just a title like "Lord Commander" and does not mean that he is actually the best swordsman there.


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## Sferr (May 5, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Barristan under his alias hints it was something to do with the wind, it anger Jorah in Dany's presence so I assume he hit a nerve. This was before it was revealed Arstan was Barristan.


I do not think he hinted about the wind, just that he was extremely motivated to show himself to Lynesse. Jorah was angered because Barristan's tale meant he was in that tourney and Jorah did not know he was Barristan.




Tranquil Fury said:


> Aragorn would trounce Jamie but that's neither here nor there, writers claiming their characters can beat someone else's characters has no validity. Jamie is one of the best sure but then so would Dayne, Selmy and others. "one of the best in history" could mean top 30 or even top 50 out of many thousands of warriors throughout 3000+ years.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jaime vs Aragorn example just shows in how high regards GRRM holds Jaime. 

 But I do not think Jaime is stronger than Barristan, in this very thread I've written that prime Jaime, prime Barristan and prime Dayne are of the same level of skill. I definitely recognize that Barristan is a legendary swordsman and know about all those feats you have posted.

But why Barristan and Dayne are hold in the legendary status, while Jaime not so much is not really because of skill but because Barristan and Dayne are examples of true knights, their valor and loyalty being as legendary as their skill. While Jaime may have the same skill level, he is the Kingslayer, the very example of a knight without honor that everybody hates. So nobody looks up to him at all while young boys dream of becoming Barristans and Daynes. But even then, nobody diminishes Jaime's power. Northmen talks about his skill level, Victarion dream of fighting with him, Brienne thinks nobody would have beaten him in full strength.


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## Darth Niggatron (May 5, 2014)

Oh, man, ASoIaF threads are the shit these days.


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## Gone (May 5, 2014)

Also for the record i wouldn't put too much stock in the Aragorn statement. They kind of ambushed Martin with that stupid GRR vs JRR interview and I doubt he had time to think about his answers and re-familiarize himself with Lord of the Rings before responding. And the specific question was "who would win Aragorn or Jamie?" not "which warrior in all of ASOIAF would you compare to Aragorn?"


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## Alucardemi (May 5, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Also for the record i wouldn't put too much stock in the Aragorn statement. They kind of ambushed Martin with that stupid GRR vs JRR interview and I doubt he had time to think about his answers and re-familiarize himself with Lord of the Rings before responding.



I wouldn't put stock in it literally -- as in Jaime can definitely defeat Aragorn, as that's just silly, but the interview has value in the way he spoke about Jaime as one of the best in history, and the fact that in the same interview, he said Gimli could defeat The Mountain.


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## Gone (May 5, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I wouldn't put stock in it literally -- as in Jaime can definitely defeat Aragorn, as that's just silly, but the interview has value in the way he spoke about Jaime as one of the best in history, and the fact that in the same interview, he said Gimli could defeat The Mountain.



Even so, the very fact that he said Aragorn couldn't take Jamie probably means he didn't think the statement through. Although it can be used, as you said, for comparative purposes against other warriors he mentioned in the same interview. But even then, I wouldn't take it as word of god necessarily.


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## Darth Niggatron (May 5, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Like I've said before, Martin's characters are grounded in realism and aren't well suited to the OBD. The exception being the Mountain.


Er, you got me wrong.

There's a difference between being 'shit' and being 'the shit'. I meant the ASoIaF threads get lots of love these days...which isn't the norm in the OBD(Book series are usually ignored), especially considering they're just peak human at best.
I guess GoT is the cause.
On topic, Dayne and Barristan are obviously>Jaime. They, alongside the Dragonknight and guys like Blackfyre are the top toptiers of the verse.
Jaime is just a step below them, IMO.


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## Alucardemi (May 5, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Even so, the very fact that he said Aragorn couldn't take Jamie probably means he didn't think the statement through. Although it can be used, as you said, for comparative purposes against other warriors he mentioned in the same interview. But even then, I wouldn't take it as word of god necessarily.



I don't see how this is any different from what I said.

More than likely, he was just absent-minded of Araragorn's super-human prowess. But like I said, the value of that statement remains because GRRM said that Jaime is one of the best in history, and GRRM is not going to get confused about Jaime's position in his own creation; just maybe absent-minded of the super-human prowess of other creations.

So yes, there is word of God in that, but relating to Aragorn, the only word of God that counts is one which we don't know if Martin views Aragorn as a super-human, and so it's mostly worthless.

Its not like GRRM read LOTR thinking of feats, he probably doesn't even remember that Aragorn is super-human. You can still use the information he gave about his own creation, like if you were to compare Jaime to The Mountain, you could bring-up the interview as a form of evidence.


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## Gone (May 5, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> I don't see how this is any different from what I said.



I wasn't necessarily disagreeing with you in principle, just making a few interjections.



> if you were to compare Jaime to The Mountain, you could bring-up the interview as a form of evidence.



I know, I just did that very thing a few weeks ago in the thread with Ned and the Cleganes. So you can compare him with The Mountain yes, but not Dayne and Selmy. Although as you said the fact that he calls Jamie one of the great swordsman in the *history* of Westeros may very well indicate that he holds Jamie to be in their tier, but unless we have some feats or a substantive statement where he actually compares them, the comment isn't unimpeachable.


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## Alucardemi (May 5, 2014)

Oh, I never tried to interject in the Selmy/Dayne vs Jaime discussion, I'm sorry if it seemed like I was.

Personally, I think that's a rather speculative discussion. Sometimes I feel like they're all on the same level and it'd be a toss-up. Sometimes I feel like Barristan and Arthur would win against Jaime 5.5~6/10. It depends on my mood.

But I do believe that if I were ever to bet on someone winning againt Selmy/Dayne, I definitely bet on Jaime as the next in line. After all, he learned from Arthur.


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## Gone (May 5, 2014)

I wasn't necessarily making the initial statement against you. I think Sferr was the one who implied that the statement put Jamie in their tier. Based on hype and Martin's statement alone I actually would agree with that somewhat, but Selmy in particular just has so many more impressive feats.

Although as I said I wouldn't necessarily put them in a tier of their own either. I think under fair circumstances Jamie could probably fight on their level, or at least close to it. I think that Oberyn Martell, the Hound, and Syrio Forell potentially could as well tbh, despite their lack of renown and mystique.


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## Alucardemi (May 5, 2014)

Alright. I think we're on the same page, then.


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## Frost01 (May 14, 2014)

Giving this one to Robert Baratheon. It's just a bad match up for Jaime. 

A War Hammer > Longsword. 

A Donal Noye forged fantasy (heavier than Ned Starrk could lift)  War Hammer >>> Longsword / Shield.

Sword hand Jaime with a longsword is one of the deadliest Knights in Westeros. Robert  Rebellion Baratheon with a custom-forged War Hammer in his hand...is probably even more deadlier (if you dont have a significant reach advantage on him). 

Jaime was stopped after dispatching 3 of Rob Stark's personal guards...ask yourself, would Rhaegar Targaryen have had weaker guards during the Battle of the Trident? Would Robert Baratheon have been captured after dispatching the same 3 of Rob's personal guards? Or would he have likely reached Rob in that scenario (assuming he was Bloodlusted ala vs. Rhaegar Targaryen)?


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## Poxbox (May 14, 2014)

Frost01 said:


> SNIP
> 
> Jaime was stopped after dispatching 3 of Rob Stark's personal guards...ask yourself, would Rhaegar Targaryen have had weaker guards during the Battle of the Trident? Would Robert Baratheon have been captured after dispatching the same 3 of Rob's personal guards? Or would he have likely reached Rob in that scenario (assuming he was Bloodlusted ala vs. Rhaegar Targaryen)?


You can't really compare the two situations. There is a vast difference in cutting down the guards of a leader in a winning vs in a losing battle.


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## Alucardemi (May 15, 2014)

Frost, Jaime was only stopped because his sword got stuck.

Its true a warhammer would not get stuck, but how would that factor into a 1v1 scenario like this? Its a total non-sequitur.


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## Frost01 (May 15, 2014)

Poxbox said:


> You can't really compare the two situations. There is a vast difference in cutting down the guards of a leader in a winning vs in a losing battle.



What do you mean exactly? Care to quantify the difference in difficulty?

Pretty sure the army that has Ser  Barristan Selmy and two other LEGIT Kingsgaurd (one of whom commanding directly ten thousand Dornishmen), is the higher calibre Army than that of Rob's army (nothing against the North).

The Royalist Army only lost when Robert hammered Rhaegar's breast plate in the wrong way...


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## Poxbox (May 15, 2014)

Frost01 said:


> What do you mean exactly? *Care to quantify the difference in difficulty?*
> 
> Pretty sure the army that has Ser  Barristan Selmy and two other LEGIT Kingsgaurd (one of whom commanding directly ten thousand Dornishmen), is the higher calibre Army than that of Rob's army (nothing against the North).
> 
> The Royalist Army only lost when Robert hammered Rhaegar's breast plate in the wrong way...


Nope. If you don't see the difference between an open battle and a trap at first glance, you'll have to figure it out on your own.


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## Frost01 (May 15, 2014)

Alucardemi said:


> Frost, Jaime was only stopped because his sword got stuck.
> 
> Its true a warhammer would not get stuck, but how would that factor into a 1v1 scenario like this? Its a total non-sequitur.



People did bring up Jaime's feat before I actually, and that's when I thought to myself...Robert could do that just as well. So that's not really a point for Jaime.



Poxbox said:


> Nope. If you don't see the difference between an open battle and a trap at first glance, you'll have to figure it out on your own.



Well, if there isnt anything you plan on adding...then I'll stick with the stance of Robert Baratheon replicating Jamie's feat quite comfortably enough...or better. This isn't about army vs army only that the 3 Northmen falling to Jaime would fall to Robert just as badly probably even more.


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## Rivers (May 17, 2014)

Frost01 said:


> Well, if there isnt anything you plan on adding...then I'll stick with the stance of Robert Baratheon replicating Jamie's feat quite comfortably enough...or better. This isn't about army vs army only that the 3 Northmen falling to Jaime would fall to Robert just as badly probably even more.



Fair enough. I can see that happening.


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## Frost01 (May 18, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Fair enough. I can see that happening.



Yeah its a tough fight either way.


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## Sferr (Jun 12, 2014)

Frost01 said:


> People did bring up Jaime's feat before I actually, and that's when I thought to myself...Robert could do that just as well. So that's not really a point for Jaime.
> 
> 
> 
> Well, if there isnt anything you plan on adding...then I'll stick with the stance of Robert Baratheon replicating Jamie's feat quite comfortably enough...or better. This isn't about army vs army only that the 3 Northmen falling to Jaime would fall to Robert just as badly probably even more.



Jaime was not fighting just those 3 Northmen when he failed to reach Robb. He only _stopped_ at those three Northmen, the very fact that he got to them means that he cut like dozens of people on his way as Robb was located pretty far away from where Jaime was trapped. So to those three you should add a lot more.

And here is a problem for Robert to replicate this feat: Jaime was on horse when he did that. On foot it's impossible to do that if you are even twice as strong as Arthur Dayne. And on horse Robert is average at best.


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## Rivers (Jun 12, 2014)

Sferr said:


> Jaime was not fighting just those 3 Northmen when he failed to reach Robb. He only _stopped_ at those three Northmen, the very fact that he got to them means that he cut like dozens of people on his way as Robb was located pretty far away from where Jaime was trapped. So to those three you should add a lot more.



Dozens you say? By dozens you are saying multiples of 12 - so at the very least 27 soldiers, or even 39 of them...before unfortunately getting his sword stuck only on the 27th / 39th one?

So unless you unintentionally exaggerated in your post, you are stating in this thread that Jaime killed at the very least 27 soldiers, with his sword alone in his rush towards Robb. That seems a lot like a LOTR feat to me.



> And here is a problem for Robert to replicate this feat: Jaime was on horse when he did that. On foot it's impossible to do that if you are even twice as strong as Arthur Dayne. And on horse Robert is average at best.



Well I dont think personally slaying 27-39 soldiers in one charge, is that plausible a feat to being with in ASOFAI. Not to mention it was Jaime _and his men_ who charged towards Robb, which is getting less applicable to the thread scenario here.


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## Extravlad (Jun 12, 2014)

Jaime takes both scenario.
He is a better rider based on his tournament's feats, and in a fight well defeating Rhaegar doesn't make Robert a god, yes Rhaegar was good but nowhere close to be a legendary knight like Serwyn,Aemon,Daemon,Barristan and Dayne.

Jaime and Cregan Stark are the 2 strongest swordsmen who aren't legends.


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## Sferr (Jun 16, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Dozens you say? By dozens you are saying multiples of 12 - so at the very least 27 soldiers, or even 39 of them...before unfortunately getting his sword stuck only on the 27th / 39th one?
> 
> So unless you unintentionally exaggerated in your post, you are stating in this thread that Jaime killed at the very least 27 soldiers, with his sword alone in his rush towards Robb. That seems a lot like a LOTR feat to me.
> 
> ...



Dozens is like at least 24 but whatever. But yeah, he had a back-up initially but still he killed a lot more than 3 Northmen in that attack. Dozens does seem too much but definitely killed at least a dozen people there. 

Robert would still not get even close to Robb because of his lack of skill in horsemanship.


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## Rivers (Jun 28, 2014)

Blue said:


> Lord Stark said:
> 
> 
> > Robert killed Rhaegar while presumably on horseback, and I'm pretty certain Rhaegar was a jousting god.
> ...



Actually I've been re-reading up on Rhaegar vs Robert and apparently they DID fight on horseback. With Rhaegar dying on his horse / as he fell off it.



Sferr said:


> Robert would still not get even close to Robb because of his lack of skill in horsemanship.



I wouldn't say that. Horsemanship is not only encompassed in the sport of jousting. Robert didn't like jousting but he still participated from time to time, which means he was capable, just not very good or outstanding. 

However he loved the melee, and even won them in the tourneys. The thing is, melees also start on horseback [see: Loras vs Brienne]. Jaime on horseback didnt reach Robb with a lance in his hand, even though it's shown he has the horsemanship to be a great jouster. 

Rhaegar was also a great jouster, and his horsemanship (balance, control etc.) would have definitely helped him in his fight (on horseback) against Robert...he still died though. So it's NOT Robert's lack of skill in horsemanship really, but his lack of skill in jousting...which is not really applicable here since as already said, Jaime never used a lance to reach Robb. Meaning Robert who has fought on horseback against other skilled horse riders and won...opens the possibility of indeed replicating Jaime's feat especially with his Warhammer swinging with the momentum of his charging steed.


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## Akatora (Jun 28, 2014)

I'd imagine Robert takes horseback and Jaime takes on foot


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 28, 2014)

> Actually I've been re-reading up on Rhaegar vs Robert and apparently they DID fight on horseback. With Rhaegar dying on his horse / as he fell off it.



We only see it from Dany's House of the Undying Vision which shows it on foot with them exchanging multiple blows and bleeding out in the Trident river IIRC.

Is there another source that shows it or mentions the details I've forgotten or unaware of?


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## Rivers (Jun 28, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> We only see it from Dany's House of the Undying Vision which shows it on foot with them exchanging multiple blows and bleeding out in the Trident river IIRC.
> 
> Is there another source that shows it or mentions the details I've forgotten or unaware of?



Yes, one of Ned's chapters from GOT.  I think when he was talking with Robert while in the Winterfell Crypts:



> _They had come together at the ford of the Trident while the battle crashed around them, Robert with his warhammer and his great antlered helm, the Targaryen prince armored all in black. On his breastplate was the three headed dragon of his house, wrought all in rubies that flashed like fire in the sunlight. *The waters of the Trident ran red around the hooves of their destriers as they circled and clashed, again and again, until at last a crushing blow from Robert's hammer stove in the dragon and the chest beneath it.*_



Slight correction though, Rhaegar took his last breath dying in the river, while Robert looked down upon him. However, he suffered the killing strike while he was still on his horse.

Besides a full description of the battle, the only other tidbits of info Id really like to know are:

1. Was Rhaegar definitely using a Longsword in the battle?
2. Where and what type of injury did he inflict on Robert?
3. Was Robert bringing in with him prior injuries before the Trident?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 29, 2014)

Yeah I checked up the HOU vision


> “Help me. Show me.”
> ...help her... the whispers mocked.... show her...
> Then phantoms shivered through the murk, images in indigo. Viserys screamed as the molten gold ran down his cheeks and filled his mouth. A tall lord with copper skin and silver-gold hair stood beneath the banner of a fiery stallion, a burning city behind him. Rubies flew like drops of blood from the chest of a dying prince, and he sank to his knees in the water and with his last



No mention of the exchange just dying in the river, not sure why I remembered mention of them exchanging blows in the river.



> Stoney Sept was the biggest town Arya had seen since King’s Landing, and Harwin said her father had won a famous battle here.
> “The Mad King’s men had been hunting Robert, trying to catch him before he could rejoin your father,” he told her as they rode toward the gate. “*He was wounded, being tended by some friends*, when Lord Connington the Hand took the town with a mighty force and started



My apology again. Rereading through Arya's chapter, no mention is given outside that he was injured at the Trident, general assumption was against Rhaegar but could have been after he had already done Rhaegar in. 

Robert is a top class fighter and rider though, better than Rhaegar in a fight(at the very least he's stronger and fought more). I guess untill more details are out on this fight or something I've forgotten/am unaware of(like an interview or some source material or audiobook confirmation etc).  Robert IIRC was battle hardened even before the Trident, Rhaegar was not so as it seems it's most likely Robert was more skilled, stronger and experienced.

EDIT Man would really want to know the details on Robert's Rebellion like the fight between Robert/Rhaegar, if Varys really did save who he claimed he did etc. Come on Winds of Winter.


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## Rivers (Jun 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> My apology again. Rereading through Arya's chapter, no mention is given outside that he was injured at the Trident, general assumption was against Rhaegar but could have been after he had already done Rhaegar in.



Not to mention at the Stoney Sept the injured Robert came out to fight Jon Connington (aka Griff), _*without*_ his Warhammer (so sword vs sword), and STILL almost killed him. 



> Robert is a top class fighter and rider though, better than Rhaegar in a fight(at the very least he's stronger and fought more). I guess untill more details are out on this fight or something I've forgotten/am unaware of(like an interview or some source material or audiobook confirmation etc).  Robert IIRC was battle hardened even before the Trident, Rhaegar was not so as it seems it's most likely Robert was more skilled, stronger and experienced.



Agreed. Their castle-training would have been about the same level but Robert was:
- Bigger, stronger and likely had more endurance. 
- Battle hardened, having killed a lot of people already.
- The Fury! Absolutely bloodlusted for Rhaegar's death.
- HAMMER TIME! Better weapon.



> EDIT Man would really want to know the details on Robert's Rebellion like the fight between Robert/Rhaegar, if Varys really did save who he claimed he did etc. Come on Winds of Winter.



Indeed. Not sure how, but Id like more info about the Battle of the Trident and the Tower of Joy the most. 

Maybe GRRM will expand on those histories with the current world building stuff he is working on.


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## Reddan (Jun 29, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Not to mention at the Stoney Sept the injured Robert came out to fight Jon Connington (aka Griff), _*without*_ his Warhammer (so sword vs sword), and STILL almost killed him.


This is wrong. Robert was injured in the Stoney Sept and did come out to fight and killed knights, but he did not fight Jon Connington here. 


> Agreed. Their castle-training would have been about the same level but Robert was:
> - Bigger, stronger and likely had more endurance.
> - Battle hardened, having killed a lot of people already.
> - The Fury! Absolutely bloodlusted for Rhaegar's death.
> ...


Also Rhaegar did injure Robert at the trident. We don't know how serious the injury was, but probably not so bad since Robert could send his personal maester to tend to Selmy. We learn this from the chapter where Ned and Robert discuss Jaime sitting on the throne. The reason Ned led the vanguard after the Trident was, because Robert was injured. 

Jaime is on the same level as Rhaegar as a horseman, but more talented, more experienced and a better swordsman.


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## Extravlad (Jun 29, 2014)

Robert killing Rhaegar is by far the most overrated feat in ASOIAF.


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## Darth Niggatron (Jun 29, 2014)

WoIaF is coming out soon, so we'll get more details about the Trident.

Also, isn't young Griff Aegon?


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 29, 2014)

Extravlad said:


> Robert killing Rhaegar is by far the most overrated feat in ASOIAF.



How is it overrated? Rhaegar as per Selmy aka experienced and skilled knight was good as a fighter. Selmy called out Aerys and Viserys on being mad to Dany, he even corrected the idea that Rhaegar was some invincible hero that Viserys fed to Dany so he's being honest on flaws and skill.



> “It was said that no man ever knew Prince Rhaegar, truly. *I had the privilege of seeing him in tourney, though,* and often heard him play his harp with its silver strings.”
> 
> Ser Jorah snorted. “Along with a thousand others at some harvest feast. Next you’ll claim you squired for him.”
> “I make no such claim, ser. Myles Mooton was Prince Rhaegar’s squire, and Richard Lonmouth after him. When they won their spurs, he knighted them himself, and they remained his close companions. Young Lord Connington was dear to the prince as well, but his oldest friend was Arthur Dayne.”
> ...



Meaning of puissant


> having great power or influence.



Also "might" "potent" "powerful" etc as well. Selmy explains that Rhaegar was good just not invincible and that a fight is not always 100% going to have a repeat outcome, even something like slipping on mud could be a gamechanger from dominating to losing. GRRM has even said that while top tiers of Westeros include the likes of Clegane bros, Jamie Lannister, Selmy etc they could all be candidates for best swordsman and could beat each other in fights with outcome rarely the same so that supports Selmy. 

See also Jorah noting Rhaegar was good though you could interpret that as him simply knowing how to use one which is the other more direct interpretation.

That being said it seems Ned confirms Rhaegar wounded him


> “You took a wound from Rhaegar,” Ned reminded him.“So when the Targaryen host broke and ran, you gave the pursuit into my hands.



But what Reddan said should be taken into consideration. He did however crush Rhaegar's armor and drove the spike end through it to kill Rhaegar.

And since we are discussing horseback



> He remembered Brandon’s laughter, and *Robert’s berserk valor in the melee, the way he laughed as he unhorsed men left and right*. He remembered Jaime Lannister, a golden youth in scaled white armor, kneeling on the grass in front of the king’s pavilion and making his vows to protect and defend King Aerys. Afterward, Ser Oswell Whent helped Jaime to his feet, and the White Bull himself, Lord Commander Ser Gerold Hightower, fastened the snowy cloak of the Kingsguard about his shoulders. All six White Swords were there to welcome their newest brother.
> 
> *Yet when the jousting began, the day belonged to Rhaegar Targaryen*. The crown prince wore the armor he would die in: gleaming black plate with the three-headed dragon of his House wrought in rubies on the breast. A plume of scarlet silk streamed behind him when he rode, *and it seemed no lance could touch him. Brandon fell to him, and Bronze Yohn Royce, and even the splendid Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning.
> 
> Robert had been jesting with Jon and old Lord Hunter as the prince circled the field after unhorsing Ser Barristan in the final tilt to claim the champion’s crown*. Ned remembered the moment when all the smiles died, when Prince Rhaegar Targaryen urged his horse past his own wife, the Dornish princess Elia Martell, to lay the queen of beauty’s laurel in Lyanna’s lap. He could see it still: a crown of winter roses, blue as frost.



Both were quite good on horseback as per Ned recalling from the Tourney. Rhaegar offcourse has the famous feat vs Dayne where 12 lances were broken.

Now we have this from Cersei


> “No man will stand before him.” Margaery Tyrell gave the queen a coy smile. “But I never knew that King Robert was so accomplished at the joust. Pray tell us, Your Grace, what tourneys did he win? What great knights did he unseat? I know the king should like to hear about his father’s victories.”
> A flush crept up Cersei’s neck. The girl had caught her out. *Robert Baratheon had been an indifferent jouster, in truth. During tourneys he had much preferred the m?l?e, where he could beat men bloody with blunted axe or hammer*. It had been Jaime she had been thinking of when she spoke



Robert did'nt fight much at tourneys in jousting, Margaery who most likely knows about Cersei's affair with Jamie and Robert's history calls out Cersei's thinking of Jamie due to Robert lacking many feats in jousting vs Jamie's many jousting feats he probably has. Rhaegar did'nt fight in tourneys much either and started out late compared to boys in Westeros as he had no interest prior to stumbling upon a prophecy he misunderstood but it seems he prefered jousting over melee and is more famous for it.

Ned admittingly a biased source described Prime Robert as "peerless" once IIRC but that's not necessarily true, we've had Dayne described as such too and more times. Selmy himself praised Robert's fighting ability.

Prime Robert= top tier fighter and good jouster despite rarely doing the latter.


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## Luke (Jun 29, 2014)

Jaime takes both scenario's. He was literally one of the greatest fighters of all time before he lost his hand. Robert was more about brute force.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 29, 2014)

No, he was'nt. It's like saying Gregor or Sandor are more about brute force than skill, it's not true. Robert was about brute force *and* skill. But yes I do lean more towards Jamie, would be a good fight both scenarios.

He was physically a powerhouse so offcourse he hit hard and overwhelmed most but his skill has been hyped, he entered tourneys a lot for melee, fought in actual battles even pre Trident etc.

He's a strong dude with top class skill,not a strong dude with some skill.


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## Extravlad (Jun 29, 2014)

> How is it overrated? Rhaegar as per Selmy aka experienced and skilled knight was good as a fighter. Selmy called out Aerys and Viserys on being mad to Dany, he even corrected the idea that Rhaegar was some invincible hero that Viserys fed to Dany so he's being honest on flaws and skill.


Rhaegar was skilled, but he wasn't Dayne or Selmy, i'm not even sure if he was better than Oswell Whent or Gerold Hightower.
About his experience, did Rhaegar fight in a real battle before the Trident? 

Rhaegar is Loras/Sandor tier at best IMO. One of the greatest in westeros, but not as strong as legends like Jaime/Selmy/Dayne.


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## Rivers (Jun 29, 2014)

Reddan said:


> This is wrong. Robert was injured in the Stoney Sept and did come out to fight and killed knights, but he did not fight Jon Connington here.



It's right actually.



			
				A Dance With Dragons said:
			
		

> _Bells and battle followed, and Robert emerged from his brothel with a blade in hand, *and almost slew Jon on the steps of the old sept that gave the town its name.*_


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## Luke (Jun 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> No, he was'nt. It's like saying Gregor or Sandor are more about brute force than skill, it's not true. Robert was about brute force *and* skill. But yes I do lean more towards Jamie, would be a good fight both scenarios.
> 
> He was physically a powerhouse so offcourse he hit hard and overwhelmed most but his skill has been hyped, he entered tourneys a lot for melee, fought in actual battles even pre Trident etc.
> 
> He's a strong dude with top class skill,not a strong dude with some skill.



Of course Robert's got skill, but he's not among the best fighters of all time.


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## Rivers (Jun 29, 2014)

Master Luke said:


> Of course Robert's got skill, but he's not among the best fighters of all time.



Isn't that subjectivity now? How does one prove that?

If we are talking about the best fighters in Westeros within Selmy's lifetime, I have no problem saying Prime Robert Baratheon would be in that league. 

Being 6'6 and holding a 16-pound Warhammer in one hand, a shield in the other, wearing full-plate while riding a horse, and killing armoured Knights in one blow...shouldn't detract from his martial prowess.


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## Gone (Jun 29, 2014)

Rivers said:


> Isn't that subjectivity now? How does one prove that?
> 
> If we are talking about the best fighters in Westeros within Selmy's lifetime, I have no problem saying Prime Robert Baratheon would be in that league.
> 
> Being 6'6 and holding a 16-pound Warhammer in one hand, a shield in the other, wearing full-plate while riding a horse, and killing armoured Knights in one blow...shouldn't detract from his martial prowess.



Depends what you consider "the best".

Top 3? Top 10? Top 20?


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## Rivers (Jun 29, 2014)

Ryjacork said:


> Depends what you consider "the best".
> 
> Top 3? Top 10? Top 20?



Young Robert Baratheon? 

Top 5 no problem.

This is what his Warhammer would have been like:

[YOUTUBE]xFAzQQkUlFo[/YOUTUBE]

A modernday sledge hammer...wielded with ONE hand.

It's no surprise in hindsight that Rhaegar wouldn't be coming back to King's Landing that day (as he told Jaime)...alive at least.


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## Reddan (Jun 29, 2014)

Rivers said:


> It's right actually.


It seems that this was more a surprise attack, which led to Robert fighting Myles Mooton. Jon Connington was fighting off the army of Hoster Tully and Ned initially. He personally wounded Hoster Tully and killed Denys Arryn. We later learn that Robert and Jon Connington never actually fought each other. 

I will look for the quote, but it is later confirmed that the two never actually came to cross swords directly.


EDIT

I found the quote. It's in Arya's fifth chapter in ASOS. 

*They battled in the streets and alleys, even on the rooftops, and all the septons rang their bells so the smallfolk would know to lock their doors. Robert came out of hiding to join the fight when the bells began to ring. He slew six men that day, they say. One was Myles Mooton, a famous knight who'd been Prince Rhaegar's squire. He would have slain the Hand too, but the battle never brought them together. Connington wounded your grandfather Tully sore, though, and killed Ser Denys Arryn, the darling of the Vale. *

I think we can take from the quotes that Robert was without doubt a greater warrior than Jon Connington and if they met they would have killed him. Considering he killed Jon's good friend Myles Mooton then there is great chance he got close to Jon, but Myles jumped in the way. However, it confirms that they never actually fought.


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## Gone (Jun 29, 2014)

Taking note of who actually said the quote is important. Martin has used unreliable narrators before, like with Sandor and Sansa's UnKiss.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 29, 2014)

Also that. Remember, these are'nt from one omniscient narrator, they are the thoughts of characters and some remember or heard things differently. Catelyn heard that Ned killed Dayne and slept with Ashara, a rumor that spread based on something with Ashara and a Stark at Harrenhal(possibly Brandon). 

Jamie' POV of his Brienne fight gives her praise while Brienne's POV has her remembering how scared and overwhelmed she was of him.


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## Reddan (Jun 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> Also that. Remember, these are'nt from one omniscient narrator, they are the thoughts of characters and some remember or heard things differently. Catelyn heard that Ned killed Dayne and slept with Ashara, a rumor that spread based on something with Ashara and a Stark at Harrenhal(possibly Brandon).
> 
> Jamie' POV of his Brienne fight gives her praise while Brienne's POV has her remembering how scared and overwhelmed she was of him.



There is no real contradiction here in their opinions. Jaime rates and respects Brienne, but he does not consider her in the league of Loras. Ignoring when he is just trash talking Loras and looking at his thoughts he considers Loras as slightly inferior version of himself. He does not consider Brienne on quite that level, but still beleives she is capable.


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## Alucardemi (Jun 29, 2014)

I don't think he meant that there was contradiction between those particular PoV's, just used that as an example that you can be exposed to different opinions depending on who you ask.


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## Tranquil Fury (Jun 29, 2014)

I'm not saying Jamie did not respect Brienne as a fighter even commenting on her freakish strength. I'm saying from Jamie's POV it looked like he was having a hard time going off his thoughts as opposed to his arrogant demeanor he put up against her, Brienne's POV has her remembering as she quotes "struggling to hold his sword at bay" or something such. 

But it was mostly my example on contradicting POV which is fine as it's the character's perception. We're going too off topic on this though. The point was that POVs are not 100% reliable, I'm not saying to reject them but one should be careful on which they choose and reject.


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## Reddan (Jun 29, 2014)

Tranquil Fury said:


> I'm not saying Jamie did not respect Brienne as a fighter even commenting on her freakish strength. I'm saying from Jamie's POV it looked like he was having a hard time going off his thoughts as opposed to his arrogant demeanor he put up against her, Brienne's POV has her remembering as she quotes "struggling to hold his sword at bay" or something such.
> 
> But it was mostly my example on contradicting POV which is fine as it's the character's perception. We're going too off topic on this though. The point was that POVs are not 100% reliable, I'm not saying to reject them but one should be careful on which they choose and reject.



I very much agree with you. I think people are too quick when reading ASOIAG to take things they first hear or characters to repeat for granted. Right in the prologue we get an example of this with Waymar Royce, who his subordinates look down upon, but proves his worth when he faces an Other in single comabt. Another example is Cat referring to Renly's army as 'summer knights' when in reality they are the finest collection of warriors out of any army, Though as you say we are off topic.


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