# Beerus vs Sailormoon



## Unlucky13 (Sep 27, 2015)

In light of recent feats I want to see how this match goes now that we've confirmed at least Skyfather DB level characters.

I pray that this doesn't end up to be a shitstorm and that it can be a nice friendly discussion/debate. 

I mean this isn't a DB vs Comic character after all 

So onward.


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 27, 2015)

Depends. How fast is Sailor Moon again? Because if it's faster than 12 billion times FTL, she still soulfucks Beerus for the victory.


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## Red Angel (Sep 27, 2015)

>skyfather DB god tiers

Since when?


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 27, 2015)

Skarbrand said:


> >skyfather DB god tiers
> 
> Since when?



Since episode 12 of Dragon Ball Super. Check the meta thread out and witness how many people jizzed themselves over it.


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## trance (Sep 27, 2015)

Pretty sure Beerus gets skullfucked.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

Beerus fists are in the double digit GigaFoe range (Small Galaxy level)


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> Beerus fists are in the double digit GigaFoe range (Small Galaxy level)



Considering Goku's and Beerus' clash was going to destroy everything, nah.

Galaxy to multi-galaxy at minimum. With the added ability of being able to tear space apart since the shockwave reached King Kai's planet too in the episode.

Still, though, Beerus is still rather lacking in the speed department compared to Sailor Moon so I'm willing to still give this to her via soulfuck.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

Personally, I feel like Beerus takes this.

Sailor Moon is faster, certainly. But when you aren't so much as flinching from galaxy level punches being thrown one after the other. The likelihood of Sailor Moon actually hurting him are pretty slim. However, if he so much as hits her. Or decides he wants to release a galaxy level blast, he won't die from the collateral. But she will.

Beerus' individual punches are galaxy level. His blasts? No doubt, multi-galaxy level flat out and he's not getting one shotted by one of his blasts.


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## trance (Sep 27, 2015)

Is Beerus millions or billions times FTL?


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## NightmareCinema (Sep 27, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Yes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Doesn't Sailor Moon have soulfuck, though? Or am I remembering things wrong?


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

NightmareCinema said:


> Considering Goku's and Beerus' clash was going to destroy everything, nah.
> 
> Galaxy to multi-galaxy at minimum. With the added ability of being able to tear space apart since the shockwave reached King Kai's planet too in the episode.
> 
> Still, though, Beerus is still rather lacking in the speed department compared to Sailor Moon so I'm willing to still give this to her via soulfuck.



actually no. The best we have to go on is it stretching hundreds of thousands of light years to Kaioshin's planet.

Again even if They were able to destroy the entire universe (even multiverse) it would still only be Galaxy level. (In the ExaFoe's max)


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## Unlucky13 (Sep 27, 2015)

Power wise and durability wise it looks like Beerus has that in spades over Sailor Moon.

Speed wise and hax wise belongs to Sailor Moon I think. Don't know much about her Soul raping abilities but I heard she has time manipulative abilities as well. 

Heard she also has the ability to revive herself or something like that due to that feat where she melted her soul in the galaxy cauldron or something like that.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

I can't recall all of her hax feats. If anyone has scans, I'd appreciate it. Nevermind would know most about it. But she can't win this off power.


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## XImpossibruX (Sep 27, 2015)

So how does Soul Fuck even work?

Would God Ki that can destroy universes negate that? Or is there really no way to know.


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## Montanz (Sep 27, 2015)

No, you need to show specific resistance to soulfuck otherwise you're fucked, that kind of hax negates physical durability.


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## shade0180 (Sep 27, 2015)

> No, you need to show specific resistance to soulfuck otherwise you're fucked,



not really you can scale other character to a lower characters that has a soul fuck resistant. in the case if the character exist as a higher being.. to the lower character...

well something like that...

basically if a human has a soul fuck resistant.. you obviously expect a demon god or a god in that verse to automatically have it. 

another example would be LT and TOAA.. 



But this is DB so I'm not sure how people would react to it. I'm just going to point out that...
Well Beerus would not be hindered even if you do remove his body and soul apart. probably... if we are to scale him to elder Kai/King Kai who had lived normally as a soul after discarding his life/Dieing from Cell. 

There's also some cases where they are stronger as a soul than when they have mortal bodies which was shown, twice or more...

when Goku fought Majin Buu as a soul or during the time with the original db with Gohan(Goku's Grandfather) when Baba called him back.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

XImpossibruX said:


> So how does Soul Fuck even work?
> 
> Would God Ki that can destroy universes negate that? Or is there really no way to know.



Beerus doesnt qualify for that so it's irrelevant.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> actually no. The best we have to go on is it stretching hundreds of thousands of light years to Kaioshin's planet.
> 
> Again even if They were able to destroy the entire universe (even multiverse) it would still only be Galaxy level. (In the ExaFoe's max)



no.
We've got reliable statements putting a few hits from goku/beerus as universe level.

And as people pointed out, four galaxies is a mistranslation. 4 quadrants is the more correct kanji.
So... multi-galaxy at the lowest.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

Does anyone have reliable sources for the four quadrant thing? I'm aware of it, but I can't find definitive data.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> no.
> We've got reliable statements putting a few hits from goku/beerus as universe level.
> 
> And as people pointed out, four galaxies is a mistranslation. 4 quadrants is the more correct kanji.
> So... multi-galaxy at the lowest.



No and no. Its not a mistranslation ive seen the actual people are just interpreting because of the "stretching out for infinity" statement. 

Also its pretty obvious we cant even take Old Kais statement at face value since A) he was panicked. B) theres no proof to back this up. C) theres nothing indicating hes seen, or known Beerus to have gone all out enough to have done this and D.) Its what he was afraid was gonna happen because the shockwaves reached the kaioshin planet.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> No and no. Its not a mistranslation ive seen the actual people are just interpreting because of the "stretching out for infinity" statement.



[citation needed]
Several people have noted that ONLY the english translation - inconsistently - refers to it as 4 galaxies - and most I've seen have stated the kanji's incorrect. as well as pointed out that it's only translated to singular form here.



> Also its pretty obvious we cant even take Old Kais statement at face value since A) he was panicked. B) theres no proof to back this up. C) theres nothing indicating hes seen, or known Beerus to have gone all out enough to have done this and D.) Its what he was afraid was gonna happen because the shockwaves reached the kaioshin planet.


Elder kai wasn't really all that panicked, and if he was just scared about the waves reaching the kaioshin planet instant movement was an option.
Elder kai wasn't stating "The universe will be destroyed" he went into heavy detail about how everything would become vacuum, specifically stated how many hits of that magnitude, has the ability to actually look over the universe, and next to Whis seems to be the most knowledgeable about Beerus of the current main cast.
This is pretty much ostrich-head-in-the-sand.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

Sailor Moon wins. Similar DC/Durability/Speed (although she has a potential advantage in all of those) but way better hax.

She can regen from nothingness which is something Beerus has no counter. Offensively she has Spacetime manipulation, Essence Removal (which destroys the body, mind, and soul of the person and allows her to remake all three loyal to her), can seal him within her Crystal, can drain his energy, etc.

If you want details on her stats, at her maximum power she has the lambda power which maintains and can restore the entire static cosmos, all of Spacetime, which includes at least one universe or potentially more (Naoko Takeuchi did write a manga short story that explicitly took place in an alternate universe.) Her speed in somewhere in the Billions of Times Faster then Light with the calc suggesting she has a slight speed advantage of ~6 or 7 times. There is also one really high end feat for Neo-Queen Serenitythat suggest her attack/reflex speed is even higher (While Neo-Queen Serenity was comatose she felt her younger self in danger and sent out a burst of light all the way from Earth to Planet Nemesis that Wiseman described as "penetrating the Spacetime interval" or in other words, it moved between two infinitesimal moments of time. Don't know if that is a legit feat or not but that's what it seems it's saying to me). Of course Spacetime Manipulation, particularly the ability to send psionic messages to yourself as well as going back in time to duplicate yourself sort of makes a mockery of speed anyway,

Beerus with his new stats would be a Top-Tier Fighter in Sailor Moon. But he'd lose to anyone with the Lambda Power for the reasons mentioned above, as well as to Chaos and any of it's spawn due to defensive hax he has no counter to it. He MIGHT also lose to Galaxia and some of the Animates who he has a DC/Durability advantage but are similar in speed and have hax that would work on him.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Sailor Moon wins. Similar DC/Durability/Speed (*although she has a potential advantage in all of those*) but way better hax.
> 
> She can regen from nothingness which is something Beerus has no counter. Offensively she has Spacetime manipulation, Essence Removal (which destroys the body, mind, and soul of the person and allows her to remake all three loyal to her, can seal him within her Crystal, can drain his energy, etc.



No. No she really does not. She does not come close to multi-galaxy level PUNCHES. She does not come close to withstanding multi-galaxy level punches without a single scratch. Never in the entire series has there even been an instance of solid galaxy level feats in Sailor Moon. We just give her the benefit of the doubt based on a few instances/statements.

Plus, cite scans for all the feats you're claiming.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

God Movement said:


> No. No she really does not. She does not come close to multi-galaxy level PUNCHES. She does not come close to withstanding multi-galaxy level punches without a single scratch. Never in the entire series has there even been an instance of solid galaxy level feats in Sailor Moon. We just give her the benefit of the doubt based on a few instances/statements.
> 
> Plus, cite scans for all the feats you're claiming.


Give me a second and I will give scans for all of my claims.


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## Nevermind (Sep 27, 2015)

Looks like I missed quite a bit. I'm still only at episode 3 of DB Super.

We've seen that "galaxies that exist infinitely in all the universe" before. What does that even mean? It's flowery language that does not tell us much. Exist infinitely in space? Exist infinitely in time?

Someone should get the raw Daizenshuu and ask Imperator to translate it. She's a native speaker.

Beerus is vastly outmatched in hax though. Like Imperator said. There's really nothing stopping her from stopping time, sending him somewhere else in time, or soulfucking him with the Lambda Power which restored the entire galaxy.

I don't think sealing him within the crystal would work though. He's quite a bit above Nehellenia's pay grade.

Furthermore her raw DC is easily at least small galaxy level given the ability to bust the galactic center.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Sep 27, 2015)

That's the thing about DB characters. Yea they now have the raw DC and speed of characters of the skyfather+ tier, but they severely lack the hax that most characters in that tier possess meaning they're still likely to lose any match with those characters. 

If only the writers would display more hax rather than just punch, kick, beam.


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## 3DSSD (Sep 27, 2015)

Here is the raw scan of the galaxy thing.

It clearly states that 4 galaxies are just administration units.


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## Toaa (Sep 27, 2015)

Also i remeber the universe the mortal one is very similar to ours ans other fictions for whatever that means


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

So I have the original Japanese scans but I know that most of the people here can not speak Japanese. As such to avoid the error of personal translation I will be using the latest more accurate English Translation which I physically have in my hands. If you don't trust that me that I am going to directly write what is int he latest English translation, everything I am writing as translation is something that can be verified by anyone who has the Kodansha translation.  I can't show the Kazenshu translation because unfortunately it's not online as of yet.

At the end of the third arc, the dramatic tension is that Saturn is going to collapse "everything" because she needs to destroy Pharaoh 90 and no weaker power can be used to do so:

Neptune: The Silence Glaive! The scythe of the goddess of death!
Pluto: For her to swing it down means the annihilation of everything "Sailor Saturn!!"
Uranus: No way!! How can this be our preordained fate?! "It can't be true! Don't do it Saturn!"

But Saturn surprises everyone by sending Pharaoh 90 back though the dimension hole it came from back to it's own dimension, and it's home Nebula, the Tau Nebula.

Translation Saturn: And I, Sailor Saturn, will guide you to death and lead you into the silent world of the void!
Translation Moon: Saturn?! If she keeps going, she'll get sucked into that warped airspace too!

Saturn demands Pluto to close the dimension door so that her destruction doesn't end the Earth as well.


It is clear that Saturn destroyed the dimension, as otherwise Pluto would not have had to close the portal to protect the Earth. How big is the dimension. Well it's large enough to contain a clear Spiral Galaxy:


Saturn even in base form, is galactic in power. Depending on how you regard the Planet Nemesis at the end of the second arc, the other Senshi might be Low Galactic in power by that point:

(New Revisions say that Low Galactic starts at 10 KiloFoe.) Although I will say in respect that Nevermind apparently still does not accept that calc completely.  Just thought I'd mention it.

Now the Silver Crystal at it's strongest is FAR more powerful then the Saturn Crystal. The Silver Crystal was the source of all energy in the universe:

Translation Queen Beryl: I have been informed that the "Legendary Silver Crystal" is a stone that is the source of all energy. It contains unfathomable, limitless power! The one who wields it will become the ruler of all the universe!

At the end of the fourth arc Sailor Moon is gathering energy from all the Sailor Crystals of the Solar System. The power is so intense that the Sol System Senshi have to transform first into their Princess Forms and then finally into Eternal forms to handle it. This includes Saturn:


What follows is a big long charging thing where Usagi gathers the planet power of all the Star System's Star Seeds, the Guardian Cats, the Planetary Castles, and the Power Guardians. This attack includes all the energy of Usagi's Silver Crystal which, if I may remind you, created all the energy in the universe, as well as Chibiusa's Silver Crystal, and Mamoru's Golden Crystal said to be of the same strength as the Silver Crystal:


*Spoiler*: __ 







Everyone: All our strength and power, gather here, now...!

All this energy goes into Usagi's first attack as Eternal Sailor Moon: Starlight Honeymoon Therapy Kiss

Yet in the fifth arc this level of attack is nothing. Sailor Galaxia, in civilian form, unleashes her Planet Power on Usagi in civilian form, who says it's greater then any other power she's ever seen:

Usagi: This incredible power!! ...So unlike any previous enemy's!! Who is she?!

In the final battle with Chaos, Usagi absorbs and unleashes the strongest power in the SM universe, the Lambda Power which maintains and restores everything in the Cosmos:

Sailor Cosmos: This is the Cosmos Crystal's ultimate Lambda Power, which restores everything to the static "cosmos".

Cosmos as a concept includes all of spacetime within it. Cosmos is the idea of existence not as a chaotic thing but a single orderly static thing.

Again all translations are from latest official english source. This covers DC. Anything else you want evidence for?


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## ~M~ (Sep 27, 2015)

^lol great post 

get fucked Beerus


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## Nevermind (Sep 27, 2015)

The galaxy thing? Pluto closed the door, there was no evidence that Saturn destroyed the Tau Nebula. She closed the door to prevent Pharaoh 90 from coming back.

Unless you're saying all the translations into English have been wrong.









Tokyopop translation, I know, but there's no evidence that Saturn busted the Tau Nebula.

This doesn't change the outcome in any way, but I'm just saying.

Edit: Also GM mirrored what I was saying about vague infinite energy.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 27, 2015)

Regardless, Definitely agree Sailor takes this with ease.


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## Toaa (Sep 27, 2015)

^ with ease no....if he hits her once she loses.only soul fuck can save him and beerus has resistance to that i think in some degree


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## ZenithXAbyss (Sep 27, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> That's the thing about DB characters. Yea they now have the raw DC and speed of characters of the skyfather+ tier, but they severely lack the hax that most characters in that tier possess meaning they're still likely to lose any match with those characters.
> 
> If only the writers would display more hax rather than just punch, kick, beam.



Well, there are plenty hax in db universe.
But i don't think the _relevant_ fighters (goku, vegeta, gohan , etc) themselves would learn to use one.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Regardless, Definitely agree Sailor takes this with ease.



If the hax is legit, then the chances of her taking it are high based on where we stand now. Depending on whether Daizenshuu 7's statements are verified Beerus would take it. Because at that point, the speed calculation gets revised, and Whis ends up crossing universal distances.


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## Nevermind (Sep 27, 2015)

Though the feat in question is the one in episode 2.

I'm not really sure how relevant that is to the Daiz map, like the one in BoG was. Seemed it was used as a stopgap.


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## Toaa (Sep 27, 2015)

Whcih member here can translate it?


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

> The galaxy thing? Pluto closed the door, there was no evidence that Saturn destroyed the Tau Nebula. She closed the door to prevent Pharaoh 90 from coming back.
> 
> Unless you're saying all the translations into English have been wrong.
> 
> ...





> Nothing alludes to Saturn destroying the dimension in the text. I'm not sure why you are even inferring it.



If Sailor Saturn didn't destroy the dimension then she died for no reason. Her attack paralyzed Pharaoh 90, and she could have easily dragged him anywhere in that dimension if she wanted. Pharaoh 90 wasn't a threat to Saturn and the reason she had Pluto close the door was that she could use her big ultimate power and not destroy the Earth. She had Pharaoh 90 on stun-lock and only her strongest attack could end the threat permantly.

Another reason why the scenario you postulated doesn't make sense. What killed Saturn then so she could be resurrected? Unlike the anime, Manga Saturn is not bound by any taboo like Pluto is. What caused her to die and be resurrected after she used her big attack.

Also Nevermind, I honestly don't see how those Tokyopop translation scans contradict that in any way?



> I've looked at it. It's a solid solar system level feat at the low end, and we go with low ends.


Their are 4 values calced. The Foe and the TeraFoe one are both unlikely. We don't go with Low-Ends when they are less likely. The most probably answer is either the KiloFoe or the MegaFoe answers. I personally think the MegaFoe answer makes the most sense to me because I don't know how Death Phantom was supposed to envelop the entire Solar System if he was so much smaller then it but either way they are both in the Low Galactic Range.



> Vague. What we were told from Galaxia was if she was to gather all the Senshi Crystals that she would be able to create a new galaxy, without any hint of vagueness or statements about infinite energy.



How is it vague and how does that relate at all? It clearly says that the Silver Crystal source of all energy. I wasn't to the "limitless energy" bit at all. I was referring to the sentence before that. The importance of that quote was that it was the source of all energy in the universe, suggesting that if it's full power was released like at the end of the fourth arc it would be in the Multi-Galactic to Low Universal Range.

Also are you claiming that Galaxia's desire to create a new galaxy means she Galactic or below? Because that is like showing a scan of Odin creating a planet and saying he's only planet level. It's even more absurd because Galaxia explicitly is the Senshi of destruction and does not have the creation of powers of the Silver Crystal. She says within the arc that once she has the Saphir Crystal (Her Own Crystal), the Ultimate Power of Destruction, and the Silver Crystal, the Ultimate Power of Creation, she will be invincible.



> Carries on from the excerpt above. Vague statements about infinite energy mean nothing, and do not allude to universe level power.


It's not the "infinite energy" bit, it's the fact that it's responsible for all the energy in the universe and ESM's first attack had all of that 3 times over plus a bunch of other stuff including something that is above galactic.



> Not when Sailor Galaxia could not even destroy the Galaxy Cauldron. Direct contradiction to what you are claiming, but not a direct contradiction to what is in the manga because you're misinterpreting the information. She isn't universe level.


I have dealt with this claim so many times. The Galaxy Cauldron IS NOT Sagittarius A Star. The Galaxy Cauldron is not normally even a Celestial Body. It is the primordial birthplace of all the Star Seeds. Chaos corrupted it into the Chaos Star "Sagittarius Zero Star". We have no idea what the durability of the Galaxy Cauldron is. You can't claim it's only the same as Sagittarius A Star when they have almost nothing in common.



> Extremely vague as to what exactly it was that Chaos destroyed, or how widespread the destruction was.


How is that vague? The Lambda Power restores and maintains everything to the Static Cosmos. Cosmos is by definition, everything regarded as an orderly unit.  Merriam-Webster defines cosmos as "the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system". Sailor Moon absorbed and unleashed it.



> Considering the entire manga takes place in the Milky Way Galaxy


It doesn't though. Wiseman's Domain is the edge of spacetime. Pharaoh 90 came from a different dimension. Queen Nehelenia came from a different galaxy. Only one of the four Chaos-Spawn comes from the Milky Way Galaxy. It is a common thing in the fifth arc that people say that Galaxia will have domain over "all the galaxy, no all the universe!" Chaos was warping all the way to the edges of spacetime. The Earth is a portal to an entirely different Dimension, the Dream Kingdom Elysion. A whole lot of the series takes place outside the Galaxy. And Sailor Cosmos is literally the Sailor Guardian of all "The Cosmos", which is spacetime, the entire universe regarded as an orderly system.



> it is more than likely referring to the destruction of the entire galaxy,


It is neither destruction (as the lambda Power restores and maintains everything), nor is it galactic because explictly restores everything to the static cosmos, which is the entirety of spacetime.



> over an unspecified amount of time


Unspecified amount of time? There isn't any time in it at all, it's Sailor Cosmos giving a description of what the Lambda Power does, which is maintain and restores everything including space and time. There can't be an unspecified timeframe when it applies to all time.



> Which actually is perfectly in line with Galaxia's statement of creating a new galaxy with the power of all the Senshi Crystals.


Galaxia needed one Crystal to create a new galaxy, namely the Silver Crystal of Creation. She does not have Creation in her powerset. She is the Sailor Senshi of destruction. Also again, that would be like saying if Odin created a planet, that means he's only planetary. Nowhere does Galaxia say she *needs* all the Crystals to create the Galaxy.

Also even if Beerus did manage to harm Usagi and destroy her it wouldn't work. She has had been melted down, even her very essence, into the Galaxy Cauldron and regenerated. He has nothing that can put her down.


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## Haro (Sep 27, 2015)

I think Iwandesu lowered down the Bills flight feat IIRC.


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Elder kai wasn't really all that panicked, and if he was just scared about the waves reaching the kaioshin planet instant movement was an option.
> Elder kai wasn't stating "The universe will be destroyed" he went into heavy detail about how everything would become vacuum, specifically stated how many hits of that magnitude, has the ability to actually look over the universe, and next to Whis seems to be the most knowledgeable about Beerus of the current main cast.
> This is pretty much ostrich-head-in-the-sand.



That easily could just be shot up to more shitty writing. You're making an assumption here that Elder Kai knows what Beerus is capable of when the only thing we have to go on is that Beerus scares the crap out of him like everyone else.



3DSSD said:


> Here is the raw scan of the galaxy thing.
> 
> It clearly states that 4 galaxies are just administration units.



There's also the universe statement that says the kais watch over each of the galaxies.


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## Xadlin (Sep 27, 2015)

Is the resistance feat where beerus resisted being controlled by demigra in that DB game canon?

Cause, if so, then he has some sort of immunity to being controlled and maybe some sort of resistance to soulfucks?


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> If Sailor Saturn didn't destroy the dimension then she died for no reason. Her attack paralyzed Pharaoh 90, and she could have easily dragged him anywhere in that dimension if she wanted. Pharaoh 90 wasn't a threat to Saturn and the reason she had Pluto close the door was that she could use her big ultimate power and not destroy the Earth. She had Pharaoh 90 on stun-lock and only her strongest attack could end the threat permantly.
> 
> Another reason why the scenario you postulated doesn't make sense. What killed Saturn then so she could be resurrected? Unlike the anime, Manga Saturn is not bound by any taboo like Pluto is. What caused her to die and be resurrected after she used her big attack.



How? Her aim to was to return Pharoah 90 to the dimension which he came from and to close it. You can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dimension was destroyed so why mention it?



> Their are 4 values calced. The Foe and the TeraFoe one are both unlikely. We don't go with Low-Ends when they are less likely. The most probably answer is either the KiloFoe or the MegaFoe answers. I personally think the MegaFoe answer makes the most sense to me because I don't know how Death Phantom was supposed to envelop the entire Solar System if he was so much smaller then it but either way they are both in the Low Galactic Range.



We go with low-ends when we're forced to make assumptions in the first place. Solar system - small galaxy level as a range is fine, but when we aren't given 100% concrete information and make some assumptions to even calculate the feat the low end is what we go with.



> How is it vague and how does that relate at all? It clearly says that the Silver Crystal source of all energy. I wasn't to the "limitless energy" bit at all. I was referring to the sentence before that. The importance of that quote was that it was the source of all energy in the universe, suggesting that if it's full power was released like at the end of the fourth arc it would be in the Multi-Galactic to Low Universal Range.



In the statement you provided it does not even state that the Silver Crystal contains all of the energy in the universe - the source of all energy where? Where is it further elaborated on? The source of all Senshi energy perhaps? That makes more sense. 

According to the TokyoPop scans it even makes a point to state that the SIlver Crystal is simply just a "great source of energy". So neither the Japanese or English follows through with that trail of thought.

My point is that the statement is vague and at no point explicitly states what you are attempting to claim. Infinite/Immeasurable/Limitless = No limits fallacy. That level of energy was never demonstrated.



> Also are you claiming that Galaxia's desire to create a new galaxy means she Galactic or below? Because that is like showing a scan of Odin creating a planet and saying he's only planet level. It's even more absurd because Galaxia explicitly is the Senshi of destruction and does not have the creation of powers of the Silver Crystal. She says within the arc that once she has the Saphir Crystal (Her Own Crystal), the Ultimate Power of Destruction, and the Silver Crystal, the Ultimate Power of Creation, she will be invincible.



Yes, I am stating that statement in itself is the only statement which definitively outlines a baseline for power for the top tiers of the verse, without any vagueness and without leaving room for interpretation.



> It's not the "infinite energy" bit, it's the fact that it's responsible for all the energy in the universe and ESM's first attack had all of that 3 times over plus a bunch of other stuff including something that is above galactic.



That was never stated. Nor does it even make sense all things considered (3x universe level when it is supposed [according to you] to be the source of all energy in the universe which can be considered infinite).



> I have dealt with this claim so many times. The Galaxy Cauldron IS NOT Sagittarius A Star. The Galaxy Cauldron is not normally even a Celestial Body. It is the primordial birthplace of all the Star Seeds. Chaos corrupted it into the Chaos Star "Sagittarius Zero Star". We have no idea what the durability of the Galaxy Cauldron is. You can't claim it's only the same as Sagittarius A Star when they have almost nothing in common.



It is in the center of the galaxy where the Supermassive black hole is in our galaxy. It is the Milky Way Galaxy. It is even called "_Sagittarius Zero Star_". I think it's a black hole.



> How is that vague? The Lambda Power restores and maintains everything to the Static Cosmos. Cosmos is by definition, everything regarded as an orderly unit.  Merriam-Webster defines cosmos as "the universe especially when it is understood as an ordered system". Sailor Moon absorbed and unleashed it.



Since this follows on from your initial claim of universal energy, it needs not being addressed. Statement again, is vague. The Lambda power's explanation was vague and is largely down to interpretation due to the complete lack of data surrounding it. Furthermore. besides restoration it's never even alluded to as a power of destruction either so there's that too.



> It doesn't though. Wiseman's Domain is the edge of spacetime. Pharaoh 90 came from a different dimension. Queen Nehelenia came from a different galaxy. Only one of the four Chaos-Spawn comes from the Milky Way Galaxy. It is a common thing in the fifth arc that people say that Galaxia will have domain over "all the galaxy, no all the universe!" Chaos was warping all the way to the edges of spacetime. The Earth is a portal to an entirely different Dimension, the Dream Kingdom Elysion. A whole lot of the series takes place outside the Galaxy. And Sailor Cosmos is literally the Sailor Guardian of all "The Cosmos", which is spacetime, the entire universe regarded as an orderly system.
> 
> It is neither destruction (as the lambda Power restores and maintains everything), nor is it galactic because explictly restores everything to the static cosmos, which is the entirety of spacetime.



All true, nonetheless all the battles partake in the Milky Way Galaxy which is what I was alluding to. All vague statements which in near enough any other manga verse wouldn't even get a second look. Dragon Ball has its fair share of them.



> Galaxia needed one Crystal to create a new galaxy, namely the Silver Crystal of Creation. She does not have Creation in her powerset. She is the Sailor Senshi of destruction. Also again, that would be like saying if Odin created a planet, that means he's only planetary. Nowhere does Galaxia say she *needs* all the Crystals to create the Galaxy.



No, she needed all crystals. She just had collected every one sans the Silver one at the time.



> Also even if Beerus did manage to harm Usagi and destroy her it wouldn't work. She has had been melted down, even her very essence, into the Galaxy Cauldron and regenerated. He has nothing that can put her down.



I don't believe it worked like that. IIRC Cosmos (future Usagi) had something to do with the restoration of current Usagi.


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## SkylineGTR (Sep 27, 2015)

Aren't SM top tiers at Galaxy level Max? The only thing that might save her is the soul fuck, but other then that the shock waves alone that come outta Beerus's fists would one shot her.


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## God Movement (Sep 27, 2015)

Sailor Cosmos can BFR to the future, so if she's faster she wins off of that (if you can call that a legit win, any other kind of BFR can be countered with Shunkan Ido). However, again, if Daizenshuu 7 is confirmed to be legit the fight ends differently.


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## SkylineGTR (Sep 27, 2015)

God Movement said:


> Sailor Cosmos can BFR to the future, so if she's faster she wins off of that (if you can call that a legit win, any other kind of BFR can be countered with Shunkan Ido). However, again, if Daizenshuu 7 is confirmed to be legit the fight ends differently.





Ahh I see, interesting. I guess the outcome depends more on the size of DB universe right now then anything, since I believe Beerus would get a huge speed buff if the universe=ours in size.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

> How? Her aim to was to return Pharoah 90 to the dimension which he came from and to close it. You can't confirm beyond a shadow of a doubt that the dimension was destroyed so why mention it?


Her aim was to use her ultimate attack to destroy Pharaoh 90, and so she told Pluto to close the portal so that she could do it without destroying the Earth. Are you claiming that she didn't actually kill Pharaoh 90 because she said clearly she was going to guide him to death. 

If she didn't collapse the dimension that what did she die from and thus get resurrected by Neo-Queen Serenity? Saying the dimension wasn't destroyed doesn't make any sense.




> We go with low-ends when we're forced to make assumptions in the first place. Solar system - small galaxy level as a range is fine, but when we aren't given 100% concrete information and make some assumptions to even calculate the feat the low end is what we go with.


We go with the "end" that is most logical. The Alternative C that Nevermind did uses Earth's density for Planet Nemesis which is highely, highely unlikely. Conversely the original and Alternative A are in the KiloFoe to MegaFoe range, both of which are Low Galactic, and both of which are much more likely. Alternative B is in the TeraFoe range which is outright Galactic, albeit I don't reallly use that one much like I don't use Alt. C




> In the statement you provided it does not even state that the Silver Crystal contains all of the energy in the universe - the source of all energy where? Where is it further elaborated on? The source of all Senshi energy perhaps? That makes more sense.



The source of all energy. Period. Not the source of all Senshi energy, the source of all energy. Further specification is not needed. Your saying that she meant only the energy of a specific group is a claim that needs evidence.



> According to the TokyoPop scans it even makes a point to state that the SIlver Crystal is simply just a "great source of energy". So neither the Japanese or English follows through with that trail of thought.


...What? I don't know what you are saying here but it sounds like you are saying that the Tokyopop Translation takes precedence over both the latest more accurate official English Translation, the Kodansha, and over the original Japanese. Which doesn't make any sense.



> My point is that the statement is vague and at no point explicitly states what you are attempting to claim. Infinite/Immeasurable/Limitless = No limits fallacy. That level of energy was never demonstrated.


I am NOT talking about the limitless energy claim AT ALL. I am talking about the satatement that the Silver Crystal created all energy and therefore when Eternal Sailor Moon uses all the energy from the Solar System including all the Crystals of the Solar Systems this would include energy similar to the creation of the universe 3x over (Her Crystal, Chibiusa's Crystal, Mamoru's crystal) + more.




> Yes, I am stating that statement in itself is the only statement which definitively outlines a baseline for power for the top tiers of the verse, without any vagueness and without leaving room for interpretation.


None of what I am saying is vague. These are fairly clear things. And there is a massive problem of interpretation with yours in that Galaxia is the Sailor Senshi of Destruction, she can not create things like that no matter how much power she has. She wanted the Silver Crystal because it has the Power of Creation. She says this. She says that she will be invincible once she has the Saphir Crystal, the Ultimate Power of Destruction, and the Silver Crystal, the Ultimate Power of Creation. She clearly destroyed a planet by pointing but she can't create a planet because Creation is not a part of her powerset. 




> That was never stated. Nor does it even make sense all things considered (3x universe level when it is supposed [according to you] to be the source of all energy in the universe which can be considered infinite).


The Sailor Moon Universe is not infinite. There is an edge of spacetime that Wiseman comes from. There is not infinite energy in the SM universe. The energy that the Silver Crystal produced when it created all energy is essentially the Mass-Energy of the Universe, or the Big Bang in our universe. This is not actually enough energy to destroy the universe but it is Multi-Galactic level. I did not say that Eternal Sailor Senshi, Sailor Animamates, or Sailor Galaxia had Universal DC or Durability. I would say they have Multi-Galactic+ of those though.



> It is in the center of the galaxy where the Supermassive black hole is in our galaxy. It is the Milky Way Galaxy. It is even called "_Sagittarius Zero Star_". I think it's a black hole.


The Galaxy Cauldron is not quite the same thing as Sagittarius Zero Star. Sagittarius Zero Star was a Chaos Star that Chaos corrupted the Galaxy Cauldron into. Yes it does share the same position as Sagittarius A Star but it is entirely different in name, function, appearance. It's very clearly not a Black Hole either because we see it and it does essentially the opposite of Black Hole, constantly outputting things rather then sucking them in.




> Since this follows on from your initial claim of universal energy, it needs not being addressed. Statement again, is vague. The Lambda power's explanation was vague and is largely down to interpretation due to the complete lack of data surrounding it.


It's not vague at all. Sailor Cosmos says very clearly that it restroes everything to the static cosmos. The Lambda Power restores everything to the static cosmos. There is nothing ambiguous or up for interpretation about that. The Cosmos is everything. The Lambda Power restores everything to a single static (not-changing state) that is the universe. 



> Furthermore. besides restoration it's never even alluded to as a power of destruction either so there's that too.


It maintains the static cosmos. Because it's static that means there isn't any change because of all space and time are maintained. From what I've seen, standard OBD assumption is that maintenance of something still works as a power feat. Maintaining and restoring the entirety of the cosmos, is a Universal level feat. 



> All true, nonetheless all the battles partake in the Milky Way Galaxy which is what I was alluding to. All vague statements which in near enough any other manga verse wouldn't even get a second look. Dragon Ball has its fair share of them.


Please stop saying that they are vague because they are not. Chaos was a threat to everything. Period. The Primary battle between Usagi and Chaos was indeed in the Milky Way but that doesn't mean that the extent of the power was "only galactic". That doesn't make any sense as an argument.



> No, she needed all crystals. She just had collected every one sans the Silver one at the time.


Please provide evidence for this.



> I don't believe it worked like that. IIRC Cosmos (future Usagi) had something to do with the restoration of current Usagi.


No she didn't. Sailor Cosmos explicitly says that Usagi was regenerated by the Lambda Power which is the power she absorbed. I have the manga right here in front of me and nowhere is it even implied that Sailor Cosmos regenerated Lambda Usagi. All Sailor Cosmos was sent the Sailor Quartet back to the future.



EDIT: Beerus is not going to win this no matter how fast he is because he has nothing that can overcome Usagi's regen.


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## Iwandesu (Sep 27, 2015)

Ryo Asuka said:


> I think Iwandesu lowered down the Bills flight feat IIRC.


i brought a low end in the calc commentaries for the ones claiming the galaxy was one of dots in panel yes
no idea if it is the accepted one,tho


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## Nevermind (Sep 27, 2015)

GM, the Lambda power did destroy Chaos and restore the galaxy back to life, so it does have definitive feats, destructive and otherwise.

The Cauldron is the galactic center and all the stars in the galaxy orbit it so it's pretty much a moot point. Don't know where that came from but Usagi can destroy it so it's an impressive DC feat, good for small galaxy level and should be on par.


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## Haro (Sep 27, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> i brought a low end in the calc commentaries for the ones claiming the galaxy was one of dots in panel yes
> no idea if it is the accepted one,tho



I accept it, Idk your reasoning seemed more sound.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Sep 27, 2015)

iwandesu said:


> i brought a low end in the calc commentaries for the ones claiming the galaxy was one of dots in panel yes
> no idea if it is the accepted one,tho



Didn't Regi do that or was it Taco? Can't remember  Came out to like 3 billion c instead of 12 billion I believe.

Not sure why people are still arguing. Most seem to agree Sailormoon wins due to hax.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

The Saiyan Prince Vegeta said:


> Not sure why people are still arguing. Most seem to agree Sailormoon wins due to hax.



Partially because GM because the outcome of the fight might change if their is a reevaluation of Beerus's Speed, and so I'm trying to convince that they have similar stats and even without hax SM could/probably would win. Partially because I don't get many chances to explain why SM should be upgraded.


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## Unlucky13 (Sep 27, 2015)

Imperator100 said:


> Partially because GM because the outcome of the fight might change if their is a reevaluation of Beerus's Speed, and so I'm trying to convince that they have similar stats and even without hax SM could/probably would win. Partially because I don't get many chances to explain why SM should be upgraded.


I've heard that SM has the ability to revive herself so I was wondering if this is true and how it works? 

I'm also glad this thread turned out to be reasonably okay. Not raging shit storm or insults thrown.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

Unlucky13 said:


> I've heard that SM has the ability to revive herself so I was wondering if this is true and how it works?
> 
> I'm also glad this thread turned out to be reasonably okay. Not raging shit storm or insults thrown.



After absorbing the lambda power, Usagi showed the capacity to regenerate herself even after having her essence itself melted down into nothingness. This is what the wiki calls Mid-Godly regen. The ability to regenerate from nothingness.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

> That has nothing to do with her destroying the entire _dimension_ which is what you are claiming.


It very much does. She wanted to unleash her ultimate attack against Pharaoh 90, an attack which she is not bound by any taboos over, and needed Pluto close the door so that she could do that without harming the Earth. If she didn't collapse the dimension, that she could have brought the paralyzed Pharaoh 90 to that part and used the attack and then left perfectly fine. Her attack not collapsing the dimension doesn't make any sense because then she would have died for nothing.




> A life and death battle with Pharoah 90? There are numerous options and your stance is not confirmed.


Pharaoh 90 was paralyzed and helpless. Saturn had easily under Stunlock. How could Pharaoh 90 have been the cause of Saturn's death? Especially since she killed Pharaoh 90.



> The calculation makes other assumptions, assumptions that may be right, or wrong. Either way, it makes them and that's enough basis to simply go with the low end.


I fail to see any assumptions that are not entirely warranted. If you disagree please give an example.



> Further specification is needed, especially when TokyoPop's interpretation is simply a source of "great energy".


Tokyopop translation is famously inaccurate. I can assure that the original Japanese is similar to the Kodansha. You do not get to to use a mistranslation to invalidate something from the original.




> I'm stating that it requires further specification because it's vague


How is it vague? It's a clear universal statement. The Silver Crystal is the source of all energy. There is no ambiguity there. 



> and your interpretation of the statement is no more accurate than TokyoPop's.


I'm not _"interpreting"_ anything. This is a direct statement from the manga. There is nothing about this that is "interpretation". Tokyopop is a mistranslation.



> The statement is what it is and since it isn't clear it's down to interpretation.


How is it not clear? Give me one way it's not clear? It very clearly says That the Silver Crystal is the source of all energy. Period. There is no ambiguities in that sentence. There are no pronouns that could be referring to multiple subjects. There sentence is clear cut.




> And the Galaxy Cauldron created all stars, planets and nebula. This means nothing, and has no bearing on the latent energy the cauldron may possess.


The Cauldron is the source of all Star Seeds which turn into celestial bodies. Has nothing to do with the energy output of the Silver Crystal.



> I am aware. I am stating that she required ALL crystals to do so.
> 
> 
> 
> Or are you arguing that she collected the other Senshi crystals for no particular reason?



Um...your link is saying "sorry it's licensed and not available". Also she was gathering Sailor Crystals because:
A: She's a sadist
B: When she steals someone's star seed she can recreate their body, mind, and soul loyal to her like she did with the Sailor Animamates
C: She was feeding them to Chaos who was growing the "Ultimate Chaos Star"



> That never happened. The Galaxy Cauldron produced all the stars, planets and nebula in the galaxy, and potentially the universe.



Same thing with this link. Not showing up. But the Galaxy Cauldron does not actually create matter, it creates "Star Seeds" or the Essences of things. The energy of the universe on the other hand was created by the Silver Crystal originated within the Galaxy Cauldron and was given to Queen Serenity.

This is because all Star Seeds are in fact aspects of the Cosmos Crystal, the same way all of existence is really one static "cosmos".



> It can only be assumed to be a black hole, different application


Woah. Woah. Woah. That is a HUGE assumption when the Galaxy Cauldron acts NOTHING like a Black Hole. People said I was wanking for saying Nemesis was a Black Hole despite explictly being said to act like a Black Hole and having a number of black hole like traits. But the GC acts nothing like a Black Hole. It does not have spacetime dilation, it does not absorb energy and matter into itself to grow, it is not naturally a celestial body, it is visible to the naked eye, etc. etc.



> sure but a black hole in its position, name and ability to destroy what ever enters it. The implications are that it is a (magical) supermassive black hole which is just about all you can run with. There's really no way around it.


The GC is nothing like a Black Hole. A Black takes matter and energy in to grow. Dead Star Seeds true to the GC to be recycled into new Star Seeds. If you want to suggest that the GC is a Black Hole you need way more evidence then just it's ability to destroy things and it's position. Also name doesn't help case. The GC is not naturally Sagittarius Zero Star, which itself is not the same thing as Sagittarius Alpha Star. At best it's a reference to the real world Black Hole.



> Galaxy level is all you can run with. Everything else - vague and borders on statements and major interpretation.


I could agree that the Saturn is interpretation because we don't see it directly. I would say it's the only interpretation that makes sense because nothing else explains it but regardless none of the rest of stuff I've said is interpretation.  Everything else I've said is directly stated in the manga. Galaxy Level is Base Saturn Level. Eternal Senshi are in the Multi-Galactic Level and Lambda Power or Chaos Level beings are in the Universal Range. 




> They collected all the crystals, the sapphire crystal harnessed all of the power and in accordance with the powered up sapphire crystal and silver crystal she gains the power we're talking about.



Same thing as before. Says it's not available.



> I've seen this link - nowhere. It simply states in the source I have available that they were regenerated. Not as a result of Lambda power and either way, it's not instant regen. So not battle applicable.


I will get the scan if you want but in the Kodansha Sailor Cosmos says "Both your princess and the other guardians have all been regenerated thanks to the Lambda Power. Very Very much Battle Applicable.



> It's not instant regen by any means (which is really what you're painting it to be).


I never said it's "instant" but it's pretty quick. It certainly doesn't take more then a few minutes. Certainly Battle Applicable, which is really what you're painting it to be.



> It doesn't really make much sense in its functionality either. And since the Cauldron is really a point of birth or REBIRTH,


The GC is a place of BIRTH, not REBIRTH. Things don't get restores normally in the GC. Normally they get recycled into new things. Star Seeds go there after Death to be turned into New Ones. The GC has nothing to do with Usagi regenerating. If anything it makes the feat MORE impressive.



> that sort of affects the validity of any sort of legitimate regeneration. You can't account for any such contribution the cauldron made towards it, especially when it is more or less stated in canon that the Senshi in the cauldron will be reborn when their seeds reach their home planet.


Again that's because of the Lambda Power, not the GC. The GC turns Star Seeds into New Ones. Usually when something is thrown in the Cauldron it's never coming back, at least in the same way. Or did you not notice Usagi's despair when Galaxia threw the Star Seeds of her friends in?

What revived everyone was the Lambda Power which restores everything to static cosmos.



> There is no proof that if Cosmos herself is killed that she can self regnerate.


Except for that fact that that is exactly what happened with Lambda Usagi.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> That easily could just be shot up to more shitty writing. You're making an assumption here that Elder Kai knows what Beerus is capable of when the only thing we have to go on is that Beerus scares the crap out of him like everyone else.


Beerus was the guy who sealed him into the Z-sword, he has conversed with Beerus in the past, he has full knowledge of Beerus's purpose, knew when he was waking up, etc.
If nothing else, it makes absolutely 0 sense for him to go into great detail on, not only how much damage the 2 gods are making while clashing, extensively explaining what'll happen to the universe as a whole, calmly, and then to give a specific number of hits the universe has left before it all dies off. 
Elder Kai has some form of limited omniscience and is judging off the shockwaves they're currently making. This would require it to be several minutes of him talking out his ass. Super has some shitty writing, but the amount of assumptions you're making to assume old kai's talking out his ass are pretty damn extensive - and suspect as a result.
Seriously, if "it might just be bad writing" disqualified a feat, there's no way Twilight would even have one to it's name.




> There's also the universe statement that says the kais watch over each of the galaxies.



"universe"?
Can't tell what specifically you're referring to here.
DB is getting over merchandised at this point.


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## Oomura Yoshitsugu (Sep 27, 2015)

Can Usagi regenerate indefinitely? Maybe Beerus could go for a stalemate depending on how fast he is, otherwise he probably loses.


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## BreakFlame (Sep 27, 2015)

---> Multi-Galaxy DBZ


And now we now why ScrewAttack said they'd never redo Supes vs Goku


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## Imperator100 (Sep 27, 2015)

BreakFlame said:


> ---> Multi-Galaxy DBZ
> 
> 
> And now we now why ScrewAttack said they'd never redo Supes vs Goku



Limitless Superman still curbstomps


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## Tom Servo (Sep 27, 2015)

AgentAAA said:


> Beerus was the guy who sealed him into the Z-sword, he has conversed with Beerus in the past, he has full knowledge of Beerus's purpose, knew when he was waking up, etc.
> If nothing else, it makes absolutely 0 sense for him to go into great detail on, not only how much damage the 2 gods are making while clashing, extensively explaining what'll happen to the universe as a whole, calmly, and then to give a specific number of hits the universe has left before it all dies off.
> Elder Kai has some form of limited omniscience and is judging off the shockwaves they're currently making. This would require it to be several minutes of him talking out his ass. Super has some shitty writing, but the amount of assumptions you're making to assume old kai's talking out his ass are pretty damn extensive - and suspect as a result.
> Seriously, if "it might just be bad writing" disqualified a feat, there's no way Twilight would even have one to it's name.
> ...




1. He was making an assumption. The way he was describing the shockwave didn't make any sense at all (getting stronger instead of dissipating) If that was the case than it downplays the feat much less if its a direct strike. (Makes no sense I know) guess it kind of explains why the sun and Earth were unaffected.

2.


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## Warlordgab (Sep 27, 2015)

Tom Servo said:


> 1. He was making an assumption. The way he was describing the shockwave didn't make any sense at all (getting stronger instead of dissipating) If that was the case than it downplays the feat much less if its a direct strike. (Makes no sense I know) guess it kind of explains why the sun and Earth were unaffected.
> 
> 2.



Well, that means Dragon Ball seventh universe really have only 4 galaxies 

Still, how much energy was that? How do you guys calc punches that destroy planets across four galaxies?

Last time I checked, Odin's obd wiki profile stated his striking strenght was galactic level because his clash with Seth shook the multiverse and shattered countless galaxies. But nobdoy calced that either


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## Unlucky13 (Sep 28, 2015)

So from what it looks like, Beerus can contend with SM (depending on the accepted speed of both) on a sheer power/physical level, but lacks resistance against exotic abilities that effect the soul (depending on the feat of those soul abilities it seems). 

Beerus can easily destroy SM if speed is in his favor but SM seems to also have the ability to reviver herself but I don't know to what degree or how fast, so it seems she can maybe win a battle of attrition perhaps.


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## ZeroRaiser (Sep 28, 2015)

Endlessly expansive DBZverse would make Beerus faster, people also forget Beerus could just seal her away like he did Old Kai and win by BFR.


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## Imperator100 (Sep 28, 2015)

ZeroRaiser said:


> Endlessly expansive DBZverse would make Beerus faster, people also forget Beerus could just seal her away like he did Old Kai and win by BFR.



Beerus's speed is still not accepted. Either way, Usagi has better Spacetime and Dimension Manipulation so that really wouldn't work. Not to mention she sort of has an Attack/Reflex Speed Feat that would be way on par with even the most high end interpretation of Beerus's Speed (Comatose Neo-Queen Serenity's Magic moved so fast as to penetrate the spacetime interval itself).


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## Unlucky13 (Oct 3, 2015)

Going to bump this up now that we have some new feats from Ep 13. Can universal Beerus tip the scales in his favor now?


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## Sablés (Oct 3, 2015)

man, couldn't even wait for the bullet to load could you?

Unless there's a speed feat involved somewhere, the end is the same as before.


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## NightmareCinema (Oct 3, 2015)

Pretty much what Stables said.

Beerus is still a helluva lot slower than SM and still lacks hax resistance.


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## Unlucky13 (Oct 3, 2015)

Liquid said:


> man, couldn't even wait for the bullet to load could you?
> 
> Unless there's a speed feat involved somewhere, the end is the same as before.


I thought speed figures were still not sure? If the scale is still in SMs favor because of speed how much would change if speed were equalized?


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## Blade (Oct 3, 2015)

Ban unlucky13.


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## The Saiyan Prince Vegeta (Oct 3, 2015)

It doesn't matter how much raw power Beerus has. He's still a fair bit slower meaning hax is going to be his undoing. 

Raw power only gets you so far. DB can't hang with characters of this tier with just raw power alone.


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## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Oct 3, 2015)

Let's just let this thread die shall we


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