# 7th Gate Gai takes a gauntlet



## Kai (Mar 2, 2015)

There exists some of the wildest division of opinions in here regarding 7th Gate Gai. You decide where Gai stands in this spectrum of mid-high tier combatants.

Note: Gai's chakra is replenished each round and the consequences of the gates are undone each round. Damage from opponents however carry over to the next round. 

Round 1: Chiyo
Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi
Round 3: Deidara
Round 4: A (4th Raikage)
Round 5: Tsunade
Round 6: SM Naruto
Round 7: Onoki
Round 8: Itachi
Round 9: Minato
Round 10: Nagato

Restrictions: Gedo Mazo, Shiki Fuujin

How far does Gai go with the 7th Gate?


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## Trojan (Mar 2, 2015)

I'll consider him fresh each time, as that much easier.  



> Round 1: Chiyo
> Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi
> Round 3: Deidara



Gai wins 1 on 1. 


> Round 4: A (4th Raikage)
> Round 5: Tsunade
> Round 6: SM Naruto
> Round 7: Onoki
> ...



Gai loses against all of those 1 on 1. 
(7th Gate)

If we consider A, Tsunade, Gaara...etc as mid Kage level, I would  say Gai is also a mid Kage level overall. 
And no, I don't believe in the nonsense that he can use multiple AT without a problem since the 8th Gate is different than the 7th.
That's as silly as saying SM Naruto can use his FRS as much, and as easily as him using in them in his RM. 

and considering him needing 7 Gates to defeat Kisame who admitted that he is too far apart from a Sannin-level (Even with his sword)
yeah, I can't see him any higher than that, and no, what he did against Madara does not prove anything in this regard either.


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## Ghost (Mar 2, 2015)

Stops at Kakashi or Ei.


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## LostSelf (Mar 2, 2015)

> Round 1: Chiyo



Gai wins. He is too fast for Chiyo and in any case he needs to hit her safely avoiding all the puppets he can just use Hirudora.



> Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi



Kakashi is tricky, however, i see Gai sooner or later finding him out and blasting him away with ranged attacks. Gai can fall to RKB depending on the knowledge.



> Round 3: Deidara



Gai blasts down Deidara once he goes airborne (If he manages to go, depending on the knowledge on both). Or might eat an exploding clone, again, depending on the knowledge.



> Round 4: A (4th Raikage)



Ei wins. He is fast enough to not be blitzed by Gai, and durable enough to not be one-shotted right of the bat. Yet, Gai cannot block his Karate chops, wich hurts him badly here.



> Round 5: Tsunade



Either Gai outspeed her regeneration with super sonic hits, leaving no room for Tsunade to strike while he uses her like a ragdoll, or Katsuyu attempts to use acid on Gai, just for Gai to kick Tsunade in the middle of the blasts, or Tsunade hides inside Katsuyu, putting her head out to breath ocassionally and the outcome of the match ends with no winner. Or Tsunade outlasts him.

I am tempted with the first one, as Tsunade tends to rampage in a linear fashion towards her opponents. And that will end up in a repeat of Gaara vs Lee fight. Only that Gai can last much more than Lee (Tsunade can, as well) and in this scenario, he can deal damage much faster than Byakugo's healing rate.

But yet, no knowledge Gai can block a punch, and die right there.



> Round 6: SM Naruto



Gai should win unless Naruto goes for frog song. He is not skilled enough in CqC to hang with Gai, durable, but not enough to not be damaged, and unfortunate enough to be facing a man with a huge AoE blast that can take down his clone army. If Gai has knowledge of frog Katas, then Naruto is hardly landing it as Gai's striking speed greatly outclasses Naruto's, and the moment Naruto goes to attack, he will be hit first, and will be sent flying all the way.

I doubt summons can bother Gai more than being shieldmeat for Naruto. They couldn't even hit Deva Path, and i doubt they will be using big blasts if Naruto is in the way,



> Round 7: Onoki



Onoki goes airborn, tries to use Jinton and Gai interrupts him with Hirudora and blasts him off the life. Or Gai dodges Jinton, jumps and throws Hirudora, either way, his hand-speed is greater enough to hit Onoki the moment he tries to use Jinton on him, and Onoki has nothing to dodge the speed at wich Hirudora travels.



> Round 8: Itachi
> Round 9: Minato
> Round 10: Nagato



He loses the last three.



> How far does Gai go with the 7th Gate?



Enough to be one of the strongest of the Gokage, losing to Tsunade (Possibly and only because of matchup) and Ei, but winning against Onoki, who is the strongest of them.


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## Legendary Itachi (Mar 2, 2015)

Generally I see Gai and his Eternal Rival in the middle of High Kage without their final powerup (Ghostbito and Red Gate) - above the Sannin, around ppl like Danzo and Onoki but below guys like Itachi and the S/T Hokages.

Matchup-wise Gai stops at Ay, the Raikage is just a bad match for him.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

gai doesnt get past Ei since this is a gauntlet


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

7 Gate Gai clears this. Too fast for everyone in the list and can deal damage to everyone in the list. Even Ei, who gets knocked out by Hirudora.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

Gaara would win if he was on this list.
He does not clear at all.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Gaara would win if he was on this list.
> He does not clear at all.



Gaara gets speedblitzed.

And whom cant he beat in the list?


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

​


StarWanderer said:


> Gaara gets speedblitzed.
> 
> And whom cant he beat in the list?



Gaara tricks him with clones. 
He stops at A


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> ​
> Gaara tricks him with clones.
> He stops at A



Gaara gets blitzed before he can do anything.

Ei gets knocked out by Hirudora to the jaw.


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## Icegaze (Mar 2, 2015)

oh no lets not do a gai vs gaara thread. 
lol actually anyone want to do that thread with polls. 
99% would tell u 7 gate gai absolutely fucking murders gaara. zero competition 

as for this thread he stops at Ei. gai needs to be at 100% to beat Ei


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh no lets not do a gai vs gaara thread.
> lol actually anyone want to do that thread with polls.
> 99% would tell u 7 gate gai absolutely fucking murders gaara. zero competition
> 
> as for this thread he stops at Ei. gai needs to be at 100% to beat Ei



7 Gate Gai wont take any damage from first 3 rounds. He wont take any damage from any round here, because he can dodge any of their attacks. Nagato gets speedblitzed before he can use any of his abilities. Ei falls asleep from Hirudora.


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## Mercurial (Mar 2, 2015)

Round 1: Chiyo = Gai neg diff
Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi = Gai mid/high diff
Round 3: Deidara = Gai low diff
Round 4: A (4th Raikage) = Gai mid diff
Round 5: Tsunade = Gai low diff
Round 6: SM Naruto = Gai mid/high diff
Round 7: Onoki = Gai low diff
Round 8: Itachi = Gai high diff
Round 9: Minato = Gai high diff
Round 10: Nagato = Gai high/extreme diff


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## Ghost (Mar 2, 2015)

^ what the fuck


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## sabre320 (Mar 2, 2015)

jesus gai wank is back


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Gaara gets blitzed before he can do anything.
> 
> Ei gets knocked out by Hirudora to the jaw.



A dodges that.

And no Gaara doesn't.


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

That Riaikiri guy would obviously say Gai. His favorite character is Guys' s best friend.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> A dodges that.
> 
> And no Gaara doesn't.



7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him with taijutsu and utilised Hirudora against him. When Gaara has movement speed and reaction speed to put up a fight against 7 Gate Gai, let me know. Until that moment, 7 Gate Gai speedblitz Gaara.

Ei cant dodge 7 Gate Gai's attacks, because 7 Gate Gai is much faster than even V2 Ei.


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## Jabba (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> That Riaikiri guy would obviously say Gai. His favorite character is Guys' s best friend.



Dat irony tho.


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## Bonly (Mar 2, 2015)

Gai prolly stops at A. His speed and durability is going to be enough to put down Gai after he fought in the three matches before hand


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

Jabba said:


> Dat irony tho.



FYI

IAMe was the best crew in ABDC. 

But yea lol


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 7 Gate Gaaren't surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him with taijutsu and utilised Hirudora against him. When Gaara has movement speed and reaction speed to put up a fight against 7 Gate Gai, let me know. Until that moment, 7 Gate Gai speedblitz Gaara.
> 
> Ei cant dodge 7 Gate Gai's attacks, because 7 Gate Gai is much faster than even V2 Ei.



Guy isn't intelligent, he can be tricked by a clone. Look at the Lee vs Gaara fight. 
Gaara can slip in a quick one just like before. 

Excuse me? But 7th Gated Guys attacks arent as fast as he is and im sure Ay can tank Hiduroa.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> Guy isn't intelligent, he can be tricked by a clone. Look at the Lee vs Gaara fight.
> Gaara can slip in a quick one just like before.
> 
> Excuse me? But 7th Gated Guys attacks arent as fast as he is and im sure Ay can tank Hiduroa.



Gaara wont create any clone - he gets speedblitzed before he can use anything. He simply cant react to someone who can pressure Juubidara with taijutsu.

Arent as fast? 

7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him with taijutsu, dodged his blitz and used Hirudora on him. *7 Gate Gai is a lot faster than Ei, even if we are talking about V2 Ei. *


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## Kazekage94 (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Gaara wont create any clone - he gets speedblitzed before he can use anything. He simply cant react to someone who can pressure Juubidara with taijutsu.
> 
> Arent as fast?
> 
> 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him with taijutsu, dodged his blitz and used Hirudora on him. *7 Gate Gai is a lot faster than Ei, even if we are talking about V2 Ei. *



In close combat maybe not

We have no proof of that for Ei. Ei is pretty durable.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> In close combat maybe not
> 
> We have no proof of that for Ei. Ei is pretty durable.



Hirudora could at least heavily damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Ei gets knocked out.

As for Gaara, 7 Gate Gai could move great distances in moments: _this_ _this_

Gaara has no chance against 7 Gate Gai. He is too fast for him.


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## Mercurial (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> That Riaikiri guy would obviously say Gai. His favorite character is Guys' s best friend.



It's not like you are a biased person, after all.

For the rest, StarWanderer is soloing like the Green Beast would. I will just add that Edo Madara could react and parry V2 Ei when he was already distracted having to dodge Mei Terumi's Yoton. While Edo Madara couldn't react, let alone dodge or counter, to Gai's Hiru Tora used right in front of him. Gaara called 7th Gate Gai's speed and taijutsu "non human" and that was when he witnessed Ei more than once, even lightned and weighted Ei. 7th Gate Gai could pressure SM Juubi jinchuriki Madara to the point he couldn't counterattack him like he did with SM Minato, because Gai's speed and continuous taijutsu was too much; Gai also managed to shot Hiru Tora in Madara's face with Madara trying to cut his arm off to stop the punch but not managing in time (while Minato tried to Rasengan his face and was negged with ease the same way) and having to stop the Hiru Tora blast itself. 

And about Ei's durability, he has been swatted to the ground by a Lariat of base Bee. A serious Hiru Tora can destroy Madara's V3 Susanoo (as Madara was out of the entire chapter after having being hit in spite of Kakashi and Naruto potentially absolutely able to kill Obito and fuck his Rinne Tensei plan and in spite of himself saying that he just decided to go all out seriously, as the Mokuton that was blocking the Hachibi lessened just after Madara and the Susanoo were knocked blasted away), keep on mind that Madara's V1 needed two full power hits from Tsunade + Byakugo and one from weighted Ei.

Gai blitzes most of people here and who he doesn't blitzes he still defeats more times than not with speed, power and his taijutsu skills, both in fast CQC and in his special attacks.


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## Jabba (Mar 2, 2015)

Kazekage94 said:


> FYI
> 
> IAMe was the best crew in ABDC.
> 
> But yea lol



Shame you sealed your reputation. Would've repped you just for mentioning ABDC.


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## Thunder (Mar 2, 2015)

I'd say Gai clears the first three and stops at A or Tsunade. A is durable enough and quick enough to trade blows with Gai while Tsunade can potentially outlast.


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## Empathy (Mar 2, 2015)

If he starts in base, then I think he potentially stops at Deidara depending on knowledge and distance. Base Kakashi could stop him with a _Raiton Kage Bunshin_, especially if he doesn't start in the _Kyomon_. Kakashi would need _Kamui_ for a chance to win more often than not, though. If Gai starts in _Kyomon_ then he stops at A or Tsunade.


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## Mercurial (Mar 2, 2015)

Gai shits on Ei or Tsunade. It's sad to still believe otherwise in 2015 after the manga even ended.

He is too fast and skilled, far too fast and skilled, for Tsunade to do anything. In base and when worn out, he can intercept a fight between Obito and KCM Naruto, and Obito can't even manage to let a single finger on him, please note that kid Obito could touch Minato (Minato escaped with Hiraishin, but he was tagged; and I know that Gai had knowledge, but the second time Minato had too, but was tagged nonethless). Lower Gate Gai can move together with a first class speedster like Kakashi who can move better than normal thanks to Sharingan, and can intercept Gudodama. 6th Gate Gai blitzes Kisame, crosses km wide distances in blink of the eye. 7th Gate Gai's fastest punch is something that Edo Madara can't counter in time, and his speed and taijutsu are so quick that he can perform far better than SM enhanced Minato, and do that against an opponent far stronger than the same person that reacted to Tobirama's surprise Hiraishingiri with ease. Gai is a thousand times more skilled than Tsunade in taijutsu, and with his giant advantage in speed can blitz and ragdoll her. A nunchaku barrage on her head or neck with Gates speed and strength crushes her spine, then Gai, who knows about her medical ninjutsu, finishes her with a kunai, that he canonically carries. Or he just break her neck with Omote Renge, then finishes with Asa Kujaku barrage. Or he just use Hiru Tora. She can't even see him, she is not reacting, not doing anything. Katsuyu is useless, if Gai wants to blitz her she is not even making in time to summon; also, Asa Kujaku vaporizes her, as she is mostly made of water (as a slug) and Asa Kujaku canonically vaporized 1000 Suiton sharks.

Gai is faster than Ei, stronger than Ei, better in taijutsu than Ei, far more versatile than Ei with long range special taijutsu attacks. He can put him down with better speed + combo or Hiru Tora, definitely. Once you're faster than Ei and you have enough power or something to put him down, whatever it is, you basically wins mid diff at worst against him.

Portrayal, not only feats, also puts Gai far above that level, as one of the key players in the War Arc (even before the 8th Gate) and the rival of a shinobi of Kakashi's caliber, who is a protagonist and one of the main villains' nemesis.


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## KeyofMiracles (Mar 2, 2015)

Ay being a threat to Gai is probably the best joke I've heard all day. He stops at Minato.


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## RBL (Mar 2, 2015)

Yeah, 100% seven gated gai shits on both Ei and Tsunade, but this is a gauntlet, i think he stops at SM Naruto.


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## Jad (Mar 2, 2015)

Not sure how far the distance is, so I am going with 15 meters ave. distance. Now I am assuming Gai starts in 7th Gate, meaning the guy has two things on his mind; Firing Hirudora instantly or 7th Gate Combo with Hirudora follow up.

*Round 1: Chiyo:* Blitzes.
*Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi:* Sorry Kakashi.
*Round 3: Deidara:* The guy thought Hebi Sasuke was very fast, he gets blitzed when he sees how fast Gai is.
*Round 4: A (4th Raikage):* A needs to charge to go into Version 2 Shunshin mode, Gai is already in his mode at 15 meter's distance. So he effectively puts him in a 7th Gate Combo like Madara. And for reasons I have explained numerous times with proof, A loses his Raiton Shroud when met with a strong force or pressure. E.g. Base Bee. Not only that, Gai can use numerous Afternoon Tigers. He lasted in the 8th Gate with numerous moves, when previously he was so out of it he needed Lee to carry him. Hussains point of 7th Gate and 8th Gate being two different modes like Naruto's Kyuubi's mode is hilarious. It's an excuse. Gai feels more pain in the 8th Gate than any other Gate, but can last through the pain. This applies  to Gai  as well when using multiple Hirudora's, especially as his beaten up, bloodied, stamina ridden body did against Madara without immediately falling unconscious. 

Futhermore due to the stipulations, Gai has yet to sustain injury, and per OP's thread, replenishes his 7th Gate effect. Meaning any damage made by the 7th Gate is reset. Kai only stated it was damage from opponents he carries over.

*Round 5: Tsunade:* I've probably warned my self out on this debate. If by all means, everything fails according to a few people, he pulls out a Kunai he uses in conjunction with his Dynamic Entry technique, and uses the uncouth method of being a ninja. Gai has been stated twice to be a weapons specialist, and even in Lee's databook where Lee throws a Kunai accurately for Minato. It states it was only through sheer Taijutsu training he achieved this feat. Gai prefers blunted weapons, however it has never been stated he won't resort to bladed as. It's not like his afraid of killing someone.
*Round 6: SM Naruto*: Same as A.
*Round 7: Onoki*: Same as Deidara.
*Round 8: Itachi*: I've given my opinion a few times. Itachi (Hebi Sasuke arc) won't out last Gai in my honest opinion. Nor can he mix and match Mangekyo Techniques without killing himself. His always felt a large affect on his body due to those moves, while Gai can just keep avoiding and pounding at him. Note: I've also touched on my reasoning with Ameterasu not working in the specified _Gates vs. Amerterasu_ thread.
*Round 9: Minato*: If Minato has no markers on the field, so no prep, he may lose. Minato's reflexes weren't good enough against Juubidara, nor was his arm speed or technique. Gai however is. Going into CQC with Gai will not show Minato bobbing and weaving out of his punches and kicks, he will get killed. There is also the fact he has to pull out a Kunai and throw it, and I doubt at 15 Meter's he will be fast enough. Minato vs. Gai starting in base is a totally different matter.

*Round 10: Nagato:* Loses

All of Gai's matches have him in an advantage since he starts in 7th Gate (or I assume) meaning his already using his full power while others can only hope to use theirs. If Gai starts in base against these guys and gets fully healed after each round, than it would be a longer discussion. Definitely.

--- 

Hussain you accept The Last Naruto the Movie feats, but disregard Lee's involvement/feat. You are a class act. Even at the lowest feat of Lee's involvement with shattering that Meteor by dividing it into 13 slices. The amount of force Lee still has to exert would put most people down with a few 6 Gated blows. People you would not recognize as Lee being able to put down. Whatever, you seem to quarrel with most posters on this forum. Why should I be another one.​


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 2, 2015)

7th Gate Gai destroys them all with Nagato being the weakest one of the bunch.


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## ARGUS (Mar 3, 2015)

Kai said:


> There exists some of the wildest division of opinions in here regarding 7th Gate Gai. You decide where Gai stands in this spectrum of mid-high tier combatants.
> 
> Note: Gai's chakra is replenished each round and the consequences of the gates are undone each round. *Damage from opponents however carry over to the next round. *
> 
> ...



They all get blitzed and clowned, guy stomps 


> Round 4: A (4th Raikage)


Guy wins this mid diff at most, 
faster speed, faster reactions, and striking speed, along with the fact that Ay cant tank hirudora so he dies 


> Round 5: Tsunade
> Round 6: SM Naruto
> Round 7: Onoki


Guy wins these mid diff, 
none of these people could react to him, as they get blitzed and ragdolled by guys attack turning them into a smear on the ground, 
tsunade gets cut in half by a gated kick, leaving her immobilised, 
they dont land a single hit on guy 


> Round 8: Itachi


Guy wins this more times than not 
itachi is not reacting to him, and nothing short of V4 susanoo is tanking hirudora, which can get outlasted by guy, using just mere speed on gates isnt dropping him out of them, not at all, 
so itachi loses V4, and gets obliterated 


> Round 9: Minato


This could go either way, i need the battle conditions to make a judgement 


> Round 10: Nagato


Nagato wins this more times than  not, 
a boss sized ST off the bat is going to break every bone in guys body, 
and using chameleon to hide himself and catch guy off guard with an ST this large is inevitable


> How far does Gai go with the 7th Gate?


he could either stop at minato or nagato,


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## StarWanderer (Mar 3, 2015)

Nagato cant mentally react to 7 Gate Gai's speed. Gai speedblitz him before he can use any ability. He can speedblitz anyone in this gauntlet.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 3, 2015)

gai stops at raikage, the problem with that match is he may be able to physically keep up or even best him, but raikage is also durable, he will likely survive the 7th gate onslaught until it runs out.



in the grand scheme of things, i consider gai around itachi's and base minato's level, maybe slightly lower


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> gai stops at raikage, the problem with that match is he may be able to physically keep up or even best him, but raikage is also durable, he will likely survive the 7th gate onslaught until it runs out.
> 
> 
> 
> in the grand scheme of things, i consider gai around itachi's and base minato's level, maybe slightly lower



 No he won't.

 Juubidara had to block Gai's Hirudora, the same guy who's far durable to Madara who tanked the Bijuu's hits. Gai's Hirudora or even attacks that Juubidara attempted to avoid will destroy Ei.


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## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2015)

some believe gai beats nagato while others believe he stops at A

i gotta go with the latter. gai will always get murdered by nagato till 8th gate shows up 

again gai did not in no way blitz juudara. at all..i have seen raikiri try make it sound like that. 

gai faster than any other punch was trolled with as much ease as minato attack. 

again its foolish when people say gai blitz juudara (though he didnt) therefore he is faster than Ei 

Ei was never in that situation, also note madara did block Ei punch true

however Ei only mentioned he needed more speed to by pass susanoo not madara being able to go toe to toe with him in a taijutsu exchange

also note if juudara where serious he could have casually camped in black stuff before gai got close to him. if juudara was reacting to 8th gate gai. it stands to reason 7th gate gai speed was lackluster to him


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## kingcools (Mar 4, 2015)

Jad;53003756
[B said:
			
		

> Round 9: Minato[/B]: If Minato has no markers on the field, so no prep, he may lose. Minato's reflexes weren't good enough against Juubidara, nor was his arm speed or technique. Gai however is. Going into CQC with Gai will not show Minato bobbing and weaving out of his punches and kicks, he will get killed. There is also the fact he has to pull out a Kunai and throw it, and I doubt at 15 Meter's he will be fast enough. Minato vs. Gai starting in base is a totally different matter.


minato does not need to throw the kunais to use them for dodgeing. he is able to teleport around he area of the FTG seal which in this case will be within his bag/jacket. So he can teleport around it (see minato vs Ei where he teleported close to the mid air kunai).
Minato wins if he is not blitzed right at the start.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

kingcools said:


> minato does not need to throw the kunais to use them for dodgeing. he is able to teleport around he area of the FTG seal which in this case will be within his bag/jacket. So he can teleport around it (see minato vs Ei where he teleported close to the mid air kunai).
> Minato wins if he is not blitzed right at the start.



Even base Gai is faster than base Minato. SM Edo Minato couldnt react to Juubidara. He couldnt teleport away to avoid his hits. Later, 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed and pressured him with taijutsu. 

Minato stands 0 chance against 7 Gate Gai, 7 Gate Gai speedblitz him without any problem.


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## kingcools (Mar 4, 2015)

yet minato was able to teleport infront of 8 gated guy, "grab" madaras balls and teleport out again without guy moving further than a few centimeters


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

@narutox28
Sorry why is it impossible for Ei to dodge a hit from gai? again gai faster than any other punch was as fast as minato strike speed. 

Ei isnt so much slower than that. 

hirudora is the only threat here against Ei. 

Again its annoying to keep repeating. gai absolutely did not in anyway come close to blitzing juudara. 

as his faster than any pther punch was casually countered


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## Arles Celes (Mar 4, 2015)

Depends how much Hirudora can damage Ei. Even if he is not quite as durable as his dad he is still VERY durable and capable of resisting Mabui's teleporting without damage which could kill any normal person.

If he inflicts heavy damage and is capable of landing a 2nd hit then who knows. That is unless Ei does not dodge with Shunshin.

If Guy defeats Ei then he may last till he fights Itachi but I see his wounds from previous fights making him to weak to have any real chance to go past that match. Even 3 tomoe Kakashi can damage him with raiton bunshins or shit.


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

i dont believe Ei is incapable of dodging hirudora. however i would say 2 shots or more entirely put him down. 

if gai defeats Ei. the next person takes him out considering he cant use the 8th gate to troll this gauntlet


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

kingcools said:


> yet minato was able to teleport infront of 8 gated guy, "grab" madaras balls and teleport out again without guy moving further than a few centimeters



Yet Gai obviously slowed down to give his comrades an opportunity to make an opening in Gudoudama so he can hit Juubidara himself, not his Gudoudama ball. Its pretty much logical, seeing SM Edo Minato's (who is superior to base Edo Minato because of Sage Mode) "performance" against Juubidara and his words to Gai before that opening in Gudoudama. 



> Sorry why is it impossible for Ei to dodge a hit from gai? again gai faster than any other punch was as fast as minato strike speed.
> 
> Ei isnt so much slower than that.
> 
> ...



7 Gate Gai was much faster than SM Edo Minato. And Ei has no feats to suggest he can dodge 7 Gate Gai. Its a fact Ei, even at his max speed, cant dodge 7 Gate Gai's hits. 

Ei gets knocked out, or killed, because of Hirudora to his face.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Depends how much Hirudora can damage Ei. Even if he is not quite as durable as his dad he is still VERY durable and capable of resisting Mabui's teleporting without damage which could kill any normal person.
> 
> If he inflicts heavy damage and is capable of landing a 2nd hit then who knows. That is unless Ei does not dodge with Shunshin.
> 
> If Guy defeats Ei then he may last till he fights Itachi but I see his wounds from previous fights making him to weak to have any real chance to go past that match. Even 3 tomoe Kakashi can damage him with raiton bunshins or shit.



There is no chance for Ei to dodge 7 Gate Gai. 



And his Hirudora could damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo. Ei gets aither knocked out, or killed.


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

Gai's speed and power weren't the only factors there. His taijutsu skill and taijutsu style (similar to kung fu) was as well. A is also a taijutsu master (wrestling) who's focus _is_ speed. 

A is also insanely durable. Sasuke's Chidorigatana bounced off the neck of this guy, and he survived Mubai's teleportation jutsu _without a scratch_. In _base_. While Tsunade suffered internal and external damage and was forced to heal.

Raiton Chakra Mode ups A's durability. Not just his speed and reactions. 



> Raiton Chakra Mode
> 
> Raiton Chakra collects on the body, it's a body invigoration ninjutsu.  From inside the body lightning gushes out, the speed of ones nerve  transmissions rises. The body is wrapped in lightning, the jutsu  durability is like that of armor. The Raikages' application of it causes  their combat power to rise considerably.
> 
> It managed to chase Naruto's Bijuu Chakra Mode, however it was inferior to the great speed of the Yellow-Flash.


So I wouldn't completely write off A here. He may be able to take a punch from Gai, or at least _react_ quick enough to reduce the damage.


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Gai's speed and power weren't the only factors there. His taijutsu skill and taijutsu style (similar to kung fu) was as well. A is also a taijutsu master (wrestling) who's focus _is_ speed.
> 
> A is also insanely durable. Sasuke's Chidorigatana bounced off the neck of this guy, and he survived Mubai's teleportation jutsu _without a scratch_. In _base_. While Tsunade suffered internal and external damage and was forced to heal.
> 
> ...



agreed bar the he may be able to take a punch 

thats a certainty unless u mean hirudora. in which case he still will. however he cannot take several. 

gai is more skilled in a different type of taijutsu than Ei, however Ei is also a taijutsu master as u have pointed out. 

i think even without a gauntlet scenario 7th gate gai would be hard pressed to beat gai. 

again while yes hirudora has good chances of taking Ei out, in a shot or more (depending on fan bias) 

laiga bomb will casually do the same to gai (again depending on fan bias) 

so both perfectly have the ability to take each other out.


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> agreed bar the he may be able to take a punch
> 
> thats a certainty unless u mean hirudora. in which case he still will. however he cannot take several.
> 
> ...



Yeah, I was talking Hirudora. One? Sure. Multiple? A is going down.


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

agreed thunder. 
1 sure 
multiple no he wont be getting back up 

what do u think about laiga bomb putting gai down. would it take more than one or more

i think one would do


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

Well, Gai seems like an all around taijutsu master while A is more of a specialist of one style. Depends on how good Gai's wrestling game is. 

If A can grab a hold of Gai, I think it's reasonable to assume Gai would sustain a lot of damage from Liger Bomb since it's A's finishing move and all. 

Not sure if it would take Gai out of the match for good, though. Worst case scenario for A is Gai gets back up, but is weakened enough for A to lay on the pressure even more than he could before.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

> Gai's speed and power weren't the only factors there. His taijutsu skill and taijutsu style (similar to kung fu) was as well. A is also a taijutsu master (wrestling) who's focus is speed.



Taijutsu is meaningless against someone as fast as Juubidara if you are slow. He would have easily countered Gai's blows and speedblitzed him in the same way he speedblitzed SM Edo Minato. But he couldnt do that. Because 7 Gate Gai was too fast for him to do that. His movements were so fast Juubidara couldnt counter them, which in my opinion is pretty obvious. He surprised Juubidara with his speed (remember Juubidara's face expression when Gai closed the distance?), pressured him with his speed and was fast enough to utilise Hirudora without being blitzed, which requires hand seal, by the way.

Ei's taijutsu mastery is meaningless here because his taijutsu movements are a lot slower than 7 Gate Gai's taijutsu movements. Ei gets speedblitzed.



> A is also insanely durable. Sasuke's Chidorigatana bounced off the neck of this guy, and he survived Mubai's teleportation jutsu without a scratch. In base. While Tsunade suffered internal and external damage and was forced to heal.



He was scratched by it, as i remember. 

And Hirudora was capable of busting Edo Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which easily deflected Planetary Rasengan and withstood Gokage's hits (Ei's hits as well). Ei does not have durability high enough to withstand Hirudora in his face.



> Raiton Chakra Mode ups A's durability. Not just his speed and reactions.



But not to the point where he can withstand Hirudora. 

Ei gets speedblitzed against 7 Gate Gai.



> So I wouldn't completely write off A here. He may be able to take a punch from Gai, or at least react quick enough to reduce the damage.



I will. Ei cant react to someone who is fast enough to compete with Juubidara. Even Edo Madara reacted to V2 Ei's speed. 

Ei stands 0 chance against 7 Gate Gai.


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

You've convinced me: A gets speed-blitzed.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Thunder said:


> You've convinced me: A gets speed-blitzed.



Realy? I didnt expect that.


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

@thunder your reply to starwander was sarcasm right ?


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

We'll never know, Icegaze.


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## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

Lol I take it you were
I don't read it's posts but whatever it said must have exhausted u


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 4, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Gai's speed and power weren't the only factors there. His taijutsu skill and taijutsu style (similar to kung fu) was as well. A is also a taijutsu master (wrestling) who's focus _is_ speed.
> 
> A is also insanely durable. Sasuke's Chidorigatana bounced off the neck of this guy, and he survived Mubai's teleportation jutsu _without a scratch_. In _base_. While Tsunade suffered internal and external damage and was forced to heal.
> 
> ...



I think the chidorigatana thing was more because his raiton shroud diffused the attack more than a feat of durability from Ei.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Lol I take it you were
> I don't read it's posts but whatever it said must have exhausted u



"It"? Thats harsh, dont you think? 

But anyway, i havent seen good arguements from you about 7 Gate Gai's feat of pressuring Juubidara not being very impressive. You tried to downplay that feat, and you havent succeed. 

Its pretty much obvious 7 Gate Gai is fast enough to effortlessly speedblitz Ei with Hirudora to Ei's face. 

But you may think whatever you want.


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think the chidorigatana thing was more because his raiton shroud diffused the attack more than a feat of durability from Ei.



Yeah, Raiton on Raiton there (sounds kinky, er). The sword still flew back though. But that's probably because A increased the energy output of his shroud.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I think the chidorigatana thing was more because his raiton shroud diffused the attack more than a feat of durability from Ei.



Ei was scratched by Sasuke's Chidori, am i right?


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## Thunder (Mar 4, 2015)

More than scratched. It looked like Sasuke went, what, an inch through?

Chidori > Chidorigatana in cutting / piercing power.


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## Atlantic Storm (Mar 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Ei was scratched by Sasuke's Chidori, am i right?



I guess? The point you're trying to make here confuses me, though.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Atlantic Storm said:


> I guess? The point you're trying to make here confuses me, though.



If Sasuke's Chidori could cut him, than Hirudora can damage Ei a lot. It could bust Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which withstood Planetary Rasengan and Gokage's attacks. 

I think Ei gets knocked out by Hirudora.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @narutox28
> Sorry why is it impossible for Ei to dodge a hit from gai? again gai faster than any other punch was as fast as minato strike speed.



 The same reason why Juubidara couldn't use the Gedodama at close range or the same reason Juubidara couldn't strike 7th Gate Gai down while he was preparing his Hirudora.

 Minato's strike speed being on par with 7th Gate Gai's is based on what? SM Minato easily got his arm chopped off. The same guy was pressured by 7th Gate Gai and could only dodge his strikes while 7th Gate Gai had to avoid hitting his Gedodama as well.



> Ei isnt so much slower than that.



 It doesn't matter. Minato is still implied to be able to dodge Adult Ei's speed while that same Minato who is stronger due to Sage Mode got his arm chopped off before he could even react with HIraishin. 7th Gate Gai then pressured Juubidara to the point where he couldn't strike back.



> hirudora is the only threat here against Ei.



 No it's not. Not when Juubidara was afraid of getting hit by 7th Gate Gai.



> Again its annoying to keep repeating. gai absolutely did not in anyway come close to blitzing juudara.
> 
> as his faster than any pther punch was casually countered



 He never blitzed Juubidara, but he managed to surprise him with his speed as well as managing to not get his arm chopped off while SM Minato did. Do you honestly think V2 Ei can surprise Juubidara with his speed when Edo Madara could easily block V2 Ei's punch while dodging Mei's Lava Release? That makes no sense and you know it.

 And no, while his Hirudora is faster, 7th Gate Gai had to make a seal in order to activate it meaning Juubidara was given a small window of opportunity to react. He anticipated what 7th Gate Gai was trying to do once he recognized his seal. It was not casually countered, not even close or Juubidara wouldn't have shat himself trying to block it in time. That's still impressive regardless of whether or not he had to resort to Gedodama to block it.


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## Jad (Mar 5, 2015)

Well, Juubuito (incomplete) casually and inadvertently shattered Sasuke's Sasuno (Rib Cage) when he went into grab his neck and Naruto's. However, a much stronger more powerful Juubidara was pushed back by Gai's onslaught in the 7th Gate. And let's not forget Madara's mentality beforehand when he 'pistol whipped' Minato by taking one step. So 7th Gate Gai's strength should be Sasuno shattering level (at least when compared to Rib Cage Sasuke).

I doubt a barrage of hits from Gai won't effectively hurt A and follow it up with a couple of Hirudora's if need be. I've also have that example of Base Bee smacking A into the ground with his Raiton shroud clearly shut down from it. So there is those examples.

Also take note that Kisame and Bee's base strength is around the same level. And when we compare 6th Gate Gai's strength to Kisame's strength in chapter 258, we can see the difference. Gai smacked Kisame into the depths of the ocean with enough force to send him into a crater at the bottom. And we can sought of compare A's strength to Gai's 6th Gate strength by comparing the craters created by both their strikes. A with Juugo and Gai with Kisame (although he had to pass through volumes of water).

Also if Naruto the Last movie is anything, Lee's strength (even calculating his feat at the lowest end) is massive town level.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

Jad said:


> Well, Juubuito (incomplete) casually and inadvertently shattered Sasuke's Sasuno (Rib Cage) when he went into grab his neck and Naruto's. However, a much stronger more powerful Juubidara was pushed back by Gai's onslaught in the 7th Gate. And let's not forget Madara's mentality beforehand when he 'pistol whipped' Minato by taking one step. So 7th Gate Gai's strength should be Sasuno shattering level (at least when compared to Rib Cage Sasuke).
> 
> I doubt a barrage of hits from Gai won't effectively hurt A and follow it up with a couple of Hirudora's if need be. I've also have that example of Base Bee smacking A into the ground with his Raiton shroud clearly shut down from it. So there is those examples.
> 
> ...



One Hirudora is enough to knock him out. Gai busted Madara's imperfect Susanoo, which withstood Planetary Rasengan like it was nothing and Gokage's hits.


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## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

> NarutoX28 said:
> 
> 
> > The same reason why Juubidara couldn't use the Gedodama at close range or the same reason Juubidara couldn't strike 7th Gate Gai down while he was preparing his Hirudora.
> ...


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## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

> yet was able to against 8th gate gai. doesnt that prove. juudara wasnt trying to use it. VS couldnt use it



Yet Gai wasnt in a close range with Juubidara all the time after he opened 8 Gate. And Evening Elephants first step is not all that much faster than 7 Gate Gai's casual movements.



> based on juudara dealing with both minato strike speed and hirudora gai faster than any other punch with the same ease.



Not with the same ease. In fact, he could only block Hirudora with his own staff. He couldnt cut Gai's hand like he cut SM Minato's. Also, Hirudora requires hand seal. 

SM Edo Minato got blitzed effortlessly. 7 Gate Gai wasnt blitzed, could react to Juubidara, pressure him with taijutsu and surprise him with speed. Remember Juubidara's face expressions?



> lol pressured juudara. is that why juudara casually blocked gai fastest punch?



Casually? No. He blocked all of Gai's hits, but the thing is - Gai pressured him, wasnt blitzed by him and surprised Juubidara with his speed.



> looooooooooooooool. omg i cant believe u said that. he never mentioned any fear about getting hit by gai. till gai went 8th gate. then he was like i cant get hit directly. 7th gate gai, the only remark juudara made was i am being underestimated.



Maybe there was no fear, but the fact is - Juubidara wasnt toying with him. He was serious. Just look at his face expressions there. And if he wasnt toying with SM Minato, why should he not be serious with Gai? 



> madara noted Ei was fast. juudara said nothing of 7th gate gai speed. the surrpise would probably be because his LoS was blocked u know from the dust kicked up by releasing the 7th gate



Yeah, Gaara said nothing about Ei's max speed, but said 7 Gate Gai's movements werent human. Also, it seems you ignore Juubidara's face expressions. His surprise expression was right after that dust cloud, where he didnt seem to be surprised. There was a "!" sign and later, we see how Gai closed the distance. Juubidara was clearly surprised by 7 Gate Gai's speed when he closed the distance. 



> kishi disagrees. hirudora>>>>>>anything else gai has in 7th gate. this statement was made by gai. its also the only movement that generates compressed air.
> prove juudara recognized the seal. nothign of that was mentioned
> 
> yet juudara could block 8th gate gai who is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>7th gate gai.
> ...



The punch itself is the fastest in Gai's arsenal. But in order to make Hirudora, Gai have to make a hand seal, which gave Juubidara a "small window of opportunity". It wasnt blocked casually - just look at Juubidara's face expression. And i want you to explain to me why Juubidara just blocked Hirudora and couldnt cut Gai's arm off. Remember what he did to SM Minato? 

He was looking at Gai, he is a super-sensor, yet he couldnt recognise Gai making a seal? Realy?

8 Gate Gai's Evening Elephant's first step is not all that superior to 7 Gate Gai's hits in terms of speed. Of course it is faster, but:

1. Not much faster.
2. 8 Gate Gai wasnt in a close distance with him all the time, like 7 Gate Gai was.

I would agree with you if he was in a close distance with Juubidara all the time. But he wasnt. He was surcling around him before the first step, when Juubidara knew Gai is gonna attack him. 

And there was no sense for Juubidara to hold himself back against Gai. 

Ei, as i wrote before, gets speedblitzed.


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## Bkprince33 (Mar 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> So you believe Hirudora doesn't have the fire power to cripple Ei?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



A direct hirudora will, but E should have the speed to avoid a direct shot at the very least.




E won't be able to dodge any of his punches and kicks, i think he can block a few and i think he can tank a few tho.


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2015)

i dont see why Ei cant dodge his punches and kicks 
same way i dont see why gai cant dodge Ei punches and kicks. 

we have already seen sooo many times a physically slower opponent being capable of dodging a faster opponent. 

sasuke, deidara etc


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## SSMG (Mar 7, 2015)

Are you guys seriously debating if ei can stand up to seventh gated guy? 

Ei is a good match up for base guy which could go either way.... seven gates shits on ei no diff....


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## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i dont see why Ei cant dodge his punches and kicks
> same way i dont see why gai cant dodge Ei punches and kicks.
> 
> we have already seen sooo many times a physically slower opponent being capable of dodging a faster opponent.
> ...



Maybe because 7 Gate Gai is faster than Ei to the point he can speedblitz Ei?

MS Sasuke was physically fast enough to react to V1 Ei. MS gives only precognition. It doesnt boost physical stats. And Deidara was almost blitzed by Sasuke, as i remember.


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2015)

starwander u cant prove 7th gate gai is that much faster than Ei that he can blitz him

again very slowly. 7th gate gai did not blitz juudara. his fastest punch was blocked with the same ease as minato attack. 

7th gate gai has shown nothing at all to suggest his blitz Ei. take that or leave it but most of the forum i think agree with me on that. 

Ei never failed to blitz juudara so i dont get why people somehow make it seem like because gai was in that situation and Ei wasnt that gai is so much faster than Ei who actually never attempted and failed such.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

> starwander u cant prove 7th gate gai is that much faster than Ei that he can blitz him



Wrong - i can. 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured Juubidara with taijutsu and was fast enough to utilise Hirudora. And Juubidara failed to do to Gai the same thing he did to SM Minato.

7 Gate Gai is obviously a lot faster than Ei.



> again very slowly. 7th gate gai did not blitz juudara. his fastest punch was blocked with the same ease as minato attack.



1. His fastest punch requires a hand seal.
2. The fact Juubidara blocked it proves nothing. He blocked any other of 7 Gate Gai's attacks. And he was fast enough to block Hirudora.
3. With the same ease? Wrong. Look at Juubidara's face expression. And explain to me why he couldnt cut 7 Gate Gai's hand with his Gudoudama's staff.



> 7th gate gai has shown nothing at all to suggest his blitz Ei. take that or leave it but most of the forum i think agree with me on that.



Wrong again - he has shown enough to suggest he can speedblitz Ei without any problem. He is too fast for Ei.

So, those few people are "the whole forum"? 

And do you think i care about them having the same opinion as you? 



> Ei never failed to blitz juudara so i dont get why people somehow make it seem like because gai was in that situation and Ei wasnt that gai is so much faster than Ei who actually never attempted and failed such.



Edo Madara blocked V2 Ei's punch without any problem. 

Ei gets speedblitzed.


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## Icegaze (Mar 7, 2015)

i see why u on my ignore list. i shall keep u there. 

hirudora requiring a seal or not>>>>>>>>>anything else gai has in 7th gate by his own words. faster than any other punch

juudara swung down and trolled hirudora. he did the same to Sm minato. not cutting gai hand is well because hirudora being trolled sent gai flying backwards. 

surprised juudara with his speed. i guess thats why gai fastest punch didnt surprise juudara

in any case. if it makes u sleep at night 7th gate gai kicks Ei head off.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i see why u on my ignore list. i shall keep u there.
> 
> hirudora requiring a seal or not>>>>>>>>>anything else gai has in 7th gate by his own words. faster than any other punch
> 
> ...



1. I dont care. 
2. By such a large margin its so strange that Juubidara blocked his Hirudora? How much faster it is compare to his other attacks?
3. He didnt "trolled" it - he blocked it. But it wasnt easy. And in case with SM Minato, he cut his arm. Explain to me why he failed to do so against 7 Gate Gai.
4. He wasnt flying away at the moment of the attack.
5. It did, look at his face expression.
6. It has nothing to do with my badtime, but yeah, 7 Gate Gai speedblitz Ei.


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## Veracity (Mar 7, 2015)

I think Gai's speed is being overrated here. If the same Juubidara that got rushed by seventh gated GAI cold react to pointblank EE, and a dashing punch from Red Aura Gai then; it's clear he was fucking around with 7th gated Gai.

Unless anyone wants to say that the speed gap between the 7th gate and 8th gate is minimal, then Madara easily could have pulled up a black shield before Gai got to him as he canonically did to 8th gated Gai.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 7, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Maybe because 7 Gate Gai is faster than Ei to the point he can speedblitz Ei?
> 
> MS Sasuke was physically fast enough to react to V1 Ei. MS gives only precognition. It doesnt boost physical stats. And Deidara was almost blitzed by Sasuke, as i remember.



 He still hasn't explained to me why Ei can outspeed 7th Gate Gai when Juubidara pissed himself at 7th Gate Gai's speed whereas Edo Madara easily tracked V2 Ei's speed after dodging Mei's Lava Release.

 ^ Well, for the most part, Juubidara used Gedodama to defend against 8th Gate Gai's attacks whereas Juubidara was physically dodging 7th Gate Gai's moves and trying to evade him. That's still very impressive for 7th Gate Gai managing to pressure Juubidara to the point where he can't attack him physically. 

 That and maybe because 8th Gate Gai was constantly attacking from a farther distance giving Juubidara time to react whereas 7th Gate Gai was in close range the entire time?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 7, 2015)

Loool.

V2 Ei> 7G Gai

He's superior in both speed and durability. Physical strength is debatable.

Ei, praised as the fastest man alive after the fourth Hokages death. Gai who has been around for many years, who has fought and displayed his 7G power many times in the past, yet he was not called the fastest. People need to slap themselves with their fake speculation. I'll take manga fact over all this bull crap.

Kishi stated he was the fastest. Tsuande was also their when Ei made the statement. Tsuande who as Hokage, knows full well what Gai is capable of. Tsuande who was shocked that Naruto was able to his own against just V1, not even V2.

I shake my head when I see some of the arguments here. "Juudara pissing himself at Gai's speed" Looool. Don't make me laugh. The pressure and force that Gai was giving off from opening the 7th gate, caused Madara to shield his eyes and obscure his vision. So when Gai appeared right infront of Madara, of course he was shocked, he couldn't even see it coming. And then what happened, Judara blocked and countered every single one of Gais attacks, and then even sent Gai flying back, and almost killing him (if not for Lee).

Manga statement/proof that Gai is faster than Ei? I'll wait... Taijutsu speed? Yes Gai is superior to Ei. Movement speed. Hell no, Ei is still the fastest.  Anyone can surprise anyone when their vision is obstructed.

Madara was tracking and following Gais speed in the eight gate, because this time he wasn't being obstructed. Are we going to pretend that 7G is faster than 8G. Because by some of you people's logic, since Madara was able to follow 8G speed, yet was surprised by 7G speed, en 7G>>>>>>8G in speed. 

Let's not use that retarded logic. Gai never had any kind of speed reputation ever, for his 7G. He needs to kill himself to surpass Ei in speed.


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## Sferr (Mar 7, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> hirudora requiring a seal or not>>>>>>>>>anything else gai has in 7th gate by his own words. faster than any other punch


Gai never said that Hirudora is his fastest attack. What Gai did say is that a punch, required to create Hirudora is the fastest punch ever. But not an actual Hirudora. 


RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ei, praised as the fastest man alive after the fourth Hokages death. Gai who has been around for many years, who has fought and displayed his 7G power many times in the past, yet he was not called the fastest. People need to slap themselves with their fake speculation. I'll take manga fact over all this bull crap.
> 
> Kishi stated he was the fastest. Tsuande was also their when Ei made the statement. Tsuande who as Hokage, knows full well what Gai is capable of. Tsuande who was shocked that Naruto was able to his own against just V1, not even V2.



Is A faster than 8th Gate Gai?


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2015)

2015 and people still think Ei was right about him being the fastest man alive when he said it.


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2015)

He was, there is nothing against it. The only people who are faster (living characters) than him are KCM Naruto, and 8th Gate Gai. 
7th Gate Gai is overwanked. ...


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## LostSelf (Mar 7, 2015)

You said it yourself. Gai in the 8th gate is faster than Ei. Gai had Eight gate available when Ei said that.

Conclusion:

Ei was wrong.

Aside from that, saying 7th gate Gai being faster than Ei is not overwanking.


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## Trojan (Mar 7, 2015)

Except Gai used the 7th Gates before, and had never used the 8th Gate at that point. The statement is meant to be taken around the time it was stated in, not after that. Therefore, A > 7th Gate Gai. However, he is slower than the 8th Gate since it came after the statement, so it obviously not included in it.



> Aside from that, saying 7th gate Gai being faster than Ei is not overwanking.



It is, and he is overwanked in general when using the 7th Gate.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 8, 2015)

> I think Gai's speed is being overrated here. If the same Juubidara that got rushed by seventh gated GAI cold react to pointblank EE, and a dashing punch from Red Aura Gai then; it's clear he was fucking around with 7th gated Gai.
> 
> Unless anyone wants to say that the speed gap between the 7th gate and 8th gate is minimal, then Madara easily could have pulled up a black shield before Gai got to him as he canonically did to 8th gated Gai.



First step Evening Elephant, when Gai wasnt in a close distance with him. 7 Gate Gai was in a close distance with him *all the time*. He wasnt f*cking around with 7 Gate Gai. Look at his face expressions. Gai surprised him with his speed, pressured him, avoided his speedblitz and was fast enough to use Hirudora.



> Unless anyone wants to say that the speed gap between the 7th gate and 8th gate is minimal, then Madara easily could have pulled up a black shield before Gai got to him as he canonically did to 8th gated Gai.



8 Gate Gai, unlike 7 Gate Gai, wasnt in a close distance with him all the time. And i dont think the speed gap between first step EE and 7 Gate Gai's movements is super-huge.



> Loool.
> 
> V2 Ei> 7G Gai
> 
> He's superior in both speed and durability. Physical strength is debatable.



Ei has no feats to suggest he is as fast as 7 Gate Gai. Ei would have been killed if he was in Gai's place.



> Kishi stated he was the fastest.



Well, Kishi wrote manga in such a way that Ei thought he was the fastest. But he was wrong.




> Gai who has been around for many years, who has fought and displayed his 7G power many times in the past, yet he was not called the fastest. People need to slap themselves with their fake speculation. I'll take manga fact over all this bull crap.



The manga fact is: 7 Gate Gai >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Raikage Ei. Explain to me why Gaara, who saw Ei's V2 speed, didnt say anything about his speed, but was so impressed by 7 Gate Gai's speed that he sayd his movements werent human.



> I shake my head when I see some of the arguments here. "Juudara pissing himself at Gai's speed" Looool. Don't make me laugh. The pressure and force that Gai was giving off from opening the 7th gate, caused Madara to shield his eyes and obscure his vision. So when Gai appeared right infront of Madara, of course he was shocked, he couldn't even see it coming. And then what happened, Judara blocked and countered every single one of Gais attacks, and then even sent Gai flying back, and almost killing him (if not for Lee).



Re-read the manga and stop bringing out your fantasy. He wasnt shocked by Gai's "pressure" at all.

Ad i want you explain to me why he couldnt do to Gai the same thing he did to SM Edo Minato.



> Manga statement/proof that Gai is faster than Ei? I'll wait... Taijutsu speed? Yes Gai is superior to Ei. Movement speed. Hell no, Ei is still the fastest. Anyone can surprise anyone when their vision is obstructed.



His fight against Juubidara - thats a proof enough to say 7 Gate Gai speedblitz Ei, who has *no feats* to compete with 7 Gate Gai. 

And man, are you serious? if you are fast in taijutsu (hand-to-hand combat), then of course your movement speed is fast as well. And 7 gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his *travel speed* as well. And no one's vision was obscured. Thats your fantasy out there.



> Madara was tracking and following Gais speed in the eight gate, because this time he wasn't being obstructed. Are we going to pretend that 7G is faster than 8G. Because by some of you people's logic, since Madara was able to follow 8G speed, yet was surprised by 7G speed, en 7G>>>>>>8G in speed.



No, but the speed gap between 1 step EE and 7 gate Gai's movement isnt all that big. And, unlike 7 Gate Gai, 8 Gate Gai wasnt in a close distance with him.



> Let's not use that retarded logic. Gai never had any kind of speed reputation ever, for his 7G. He needs to kill himself to surpass Ei in speed



Lets not use that retarted fantasy about *obscured vision*. 7 Gate Gai, in fact, is a lot faster than Ei. And reputation is bullsh*t. People thought Alistair Overeem is one of the most dangerous opponents for Junior Dos Santos, or Cain. And where is he now?



> He was, there is nothing against it



There are lots of things against it. Even base Gai could compete with Obito, who almost got KCM Naruto - the one who surpassed Ei in speed department.



> Therefore, A > 7th Gate Gai.



Wrong. 7 gate Gai is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Ei. Ei's statement was completely wrong.




> It is, and he is overwanked in general when using the 7th Gate.



No he is not. It is the manga fact that even in 7 Gate, he was fast enough to compete with Juubidara, who is many times faster than Ei. 7 Gate Gai is not overwanked, or overrated. 

People arent seems to be objective here. People are trying to lowball Gai's manga feat. Well, i can write here all day long.


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Except Gai used the 7th Gates before, and had never used the 8th Gate at that point. The statement is meant to be taken around the time it was stated in, not after that. Therefore, A > 7th Gate Gai. However, he is slower than the 8th Gate since it came after the statement, so it obviously not included in it.



Did Kishi show us a tutorial on how to take the statements, though? I prefer to take it story wise. It's more accurate and we don't have to rely on "Kishi retconned" of other arguments as if we knew Kishimoto's intentions. Just because we found out later in the story that Gai had all this speed available doesn't make Ei's statement true.

Story Wise, Ei was wrong. Is as simple as that. Now, taking it how you said it, Ei _was_ right (probably, and a huge probably), but now he _was_ wrong.



> It is, and he is overwanked in general when using the 7th Gate.




Yeah, not when 3 (or less) gated Gai outruns the black balls, that were too fast for double Kamui and Gaara calls him not human. Taking feats for granted here, because nowadays, everything Gai does, is plot-shield of art-error.

And even if Juudara could perfectly react to his movements, as we know he could barely react to 8th gated one, how surprised he was is a no-brainer.

But then again. I am not saying people thinking V2 Ei to be faster are wrong. Just that thinking Gai is faster than V2 Ei is not overwanking. Gai has enough feats in the 7th to compete with Ei's max speed.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Did Kishi show us a tutorial on how to take the statements, though? I prefer to take it story wise. It's more accurate and we don't have to rely on "Kishi retconned" of other arguments as if we knew Kishimoto's intentions. Just because we found out later in the story that Gai had all this speed available doesn't make Ei's statement true.
> 
> Story Wise, Ei was wrong. Is as simple as that. Now, taking it how you said it, Ei _was_ right (probably, and a huge probably), but now he _was_ wrong.
> 
> ...



7 Gate Gai can speedblitz Ei because of his far superior speed feats.


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## Mercurial (Mar 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Loool.
> 
> V2 Ei> 7G Gai
> 
> ...



Edo Madara can react and parry V2 Ei when already distracted and busy dodging Mei Terumi's Yoton attacks. Juubi jinchuriki Madara is canonically pressured by 7th Gate Gai's speed. Minato, who negs Ei's speed with his reflexes and the Hiraishin no jutsu, even when powered by SM (remember how SM empowers people, Minato's SM is shitty as it's too brief, and he himself never thought to use it in battle, but we have no reason to think he isn't empowered) can't even end his Rasengan swing post Hiraishin before Juudara cuts his arm off before he can react, while 7th Gate Gai can attack Juudara with the latter being able to defend but not to curbstomp him as he did with Minato. Minato can't even end his attack, a single attack, Gai can pressure Madara and land his final attack, just Madara manages to overpower him; but he couldn't outspeed him. Hell Gaara saw V2 Ei multiple times, he even saw lightned V2 Ei, and he still thought that 7th Gate Gai "wasn't human". 7th Gate Gai >>> Minato >>> Ei.

In strength, you have Hiru Tora, one of Gai's punches executed with 7th Gate power up, stomping away and destroying Madara's V3 Susanoo, while Ei needed his chop to be enhanced by Onoki and combo'd with two hits from Tsunade's superhuman strength empowered by Byakugo chakra just to destroy Madara's V1 Susanoo. It's also worth note that Gai was nearly exausted at that point, and that he did all that alone by himself, with Madara who just stated that he was taking things seriously, while Ei wouldn't have did anything without Tsunade and Onoki, and Madara was joking for all the Gokage fight.

In durability, Ei tanked Chidori and Chidorigatana just thanks to the Raiton Chakra Mode stopping or stopping for the most part that attacks because they were Raiton enhanced. Ei was swatted away by base Bee's Lariat, he wasn't damaged too much, but he felt the hit definitely. Gai can tank his own Hiru Tora with just some broken bones, and still open the 8th Gate, feel all the stress on the body and fight for an extended time. Gai laughs at Ei.

Ei said that himself. He said that Minato had no chances against him, we saw how it went. Self statements means nothing when feats don't support it. With Naruto's life on the line, I don't think that Tsunade would have had the willingness to argue with Ei about one of her villagers being faster than him. Suigetsu and Juugo could react and intercept V1 Ei with relative ease. Darui could move at the same pace of V1 Ei. Sasuke could dodge and hit V1 Ei with ease. KCM Naruto wasn't seriously trying, that's it.

So you need manga statements of Konohamaru not being stronger than Minato, we haven't so it can be debated that Konohamaru > Minato. Good for you. "Anyone can surprise anyone when their vision is obstructed.", you said. Yeah, I guess why SM Minato couldn't suprise Juudara even if he teleported right in front of him with Gaara covering Madara's field of vision. I guess Tenten can throw a smoke bomb and blitz Hagoromo, as anyone can surprise anyone when their vision is obstructed.

Madara wasn't tracking Gai at all, come on. He was blitzed and ragdolled like Lee did with Gaara in part 1 at the chunin exam. He reacted only when Gai slowed himself to let his companions help him. In the same istance when not only Kakashi (an exausted Kakashi with his Sharingan nearly blind) could track 8th Gate Gai's speed, but also Minato (blitzed by slower people), and Lee and Gaara of all prople could track Gai's speed.

Gai negs Ei on every aspect. Taijutsu skillfullness, mastery and swiftness, physical speed, physical strength, reflexes, durability, versatility/range. Ei's body is just harder, that's it. Not taking in account 8th Gate that makes Ei compared to him like 0.1 to 10000000000. Gai is portrayed as a far stronger shinobi overall also, Ei is just one of the Gokage, and definitely not the best/strongest one.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Edo Madara can react and parry V2 Ei when already distracted and busy dodging Mei Terumi's Yoton attacks. Juubi jinchuriki Madara is canonically pressured by 7th Gate Gai's speed.



 I don't know how many times this needs to be said since I said that a few times, but is always left ignored. 

 You know people are bullshitting when they think Ei has a chance against Juubidara. 

 To add to what StarWanderer said, 7th Gate Gai was so fast that Juubidara himself couldn't even gain some distance away from 7th Gate Gai which means 7th Gate Gai's movement speed is within Juubidara's speed tier.


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2015)

No. 7th Gates Gai is not in Juudara's level of movement. Eight Gated Gai was hit by Juudara in their off panel fight, as he was bleeding. Unless, of course, that were a side effect of the last gate.

He was also missing part of his clothes. I do agree that he surprised Juudara with his 7th gated speed. His facial expression says nothing but surprise. And that's a pretty good feat that plays in his favor.

However, i disagree with him being in Juudara's level of speed. Not that this diminishes his feat. Nothing at all

Oh, and i disagree with him blitzing Ei. Only the last gate is capable of that.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> No. 7th Gates Gai is not in Juudara's level of movement. Eight Gated Gai was hit by Juudara in their off panel fight, as he was bleeding. Unless, of course, that were a side effect of the last gate.
> 
> He was also missing part of his clothes. I do agree that he surprised Juudara with his 7th gated speed. His facial expression says nothing but surprise. And that's a pretty good feat that plays in his favor.
> 
> ...



He is at least very close to Juubidara's movement speed. And can you explain why you disagree with 7 Gate Gai blitzing Ei?


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## Trojan (Mar 8, 2015)

> =LostSelf;53050069]Did Kishi show us a tutorial on how to take the statements, though?



this is a basic reading comprehension works in EVERYTHING. If something new were to say/discover, then the old one does not work anymore. Other than that, it's like it is.  


> I prefer to take it story wise


Story wise A is faster than him because that what the story needed at that point. 


> . It's more accurate and we don't have to rely on "Kishi retconned" of other arguments as if we knew Kishimoto's intentions. Just because we found out later in the story that Gai had all this speed available doesn't make Ei's statement true.


Yes it does. The author told us flat out that he was the fastest man alive, so he was.



> Story Wise, Ei was wrong. Is as simple as that. Now, taking it how you said it, Ei _was_ right (probably, and a huge probably), but now he _was_ wrong.



No, story was he was correct since it's used to show both Minato and Naruto's speed as being the greatest. Plain simple. No, he was not wrong, because the statements is about that point, showing that characters surpassed him AFTER the statement, does NOT make the statement wrong before him being surpassed. Just like how when Naruto surpassed him did not change that he was faster than him before that.


Can was say, oh Naruto was alive when he was 3 years old, and we know he will surpass A after 13 years, therefore 3 years old Naruto is also faster and that statement is wrong? 

Even if we used SM Naruto, heck even if we used KCM Naruto himself, when A said that statement he was still faster than KCM Naruto, he only became faster than A AFTER that. So, A's statement is true about ALL the characters were shown their speed before it as well, which includes 7th Gate Gai. 



> Yeah, not when 3 (or less) gated Gai outruns the black balls, that were too fast for double Kamui and Gaara calls him not human. Taking feats for granted here, because nowadays, everything Gai does, is plot-shield of art-error.



I don't even know how did you know that it was 3. And everyone and their mothers know how those off-panel feat work. It's 2015 and you still don't know? 

It's just like when Suigetsu saved Sasuke from the Raikage. It does not make him faster than A. 
Also, A never needed to dodge those, so I don't know how do know that he won't be able to do the same. Please don't tell me that you think now 3 Gates Gai is faster than him as well.  


> And even if Juudara could perfectly react to his movements, as we know he could barely react to 8th gated one, how surprised he was is a no-brainer.



This point was already explained to Gai-fanboys in details. And being surprised does matter, unless you believe Sakura is faster than Kaguya as well. 


> But then again. I am not saying people thinking V2 Ei to be faster are wrong. Just that thinking Gai is faster than V2 Ei is not overwanking. Gai has enough feats in the 7th to compete with Ei's max speed.



Except we can't determine the speed, so we have to go with what we are told. I have made a thread about the characters' speed with those Gifs

*Spoiler*: __ 












No one was able to say that this looks faster than this or this is slower than that. Heck, I have seen Lee fan boy claiming that Lee is as fast as FTG because he kicked Sasuke, and then appeared behind him the same way like FTG does. 

Not to mention Madara was protecting his eyes, like for example in this case
Link removed
Link removed

Even the Juubi did not move, so I guess you believe those characters are faster than BM Naruto/B?
Link removed
Link removed

That's basically it, and what we were told is the fact that A IS faster than Gai up until that moment, which includes his 7th Gate. It's that simple...


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> No. 7th Gates Gai is not in Juudara's level of movement. Eight Gated Gai was hit by Juudara in their off panel fight, as he was bleeding. Unless, of course, that were a side effect of the last gate.




 Fair enough. I just think he is within his speed tier because Juubidara was unable to get out of range from 7th Gate Gai's Taijutsu.



> He was also missing part of his clothes. I do agree that he surprised Juudara with his 7th gated speed. His facial expression says nothing but surprise. And that's a pretty good feat that plays in his favor.



 That's good that you agree with that.



> However, i disagree with him being in Juudara's level of speed. Not that this diminishes his feat. Nothing at all.



 Fair enough.



> Oh, and i disagree with him blitzing Ei. Only the last gate is capable of that.



 I personally think so. V2 Ei can't even blitz Edo Madara even after Madara had to dodge Mei's Lava Release. Actually, Edo Madara easily tracked V2 Ei the whole time while dodging Mei while Juubidara was surprised by 7th Gate Gai's speed. That's a huge gap considering Juubidara's reactions are far above Edo Madara's. I think 7th Gate Gai blitzing Ei is very likely.

 Edit: Dang, quoting you affected the color of my text and I'm too lazy to fix it.


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## LostSelf (Mar 8, 2015)

Hussain said:


> this is a basic reading comprehension works in EVERYTHING. If something new were to say/discover, then the old one does not work anymore. Other than that, it's like it is.



This is not reading comprehension. This is how YOU take it. Ei didn't know everything, unless we agree that Sakura is on BM Naruto's level, then character self statements are wrong sometimes, like this one, proven.



> Story wise A is faster than him because that what the story needed at that point.
> 
> Yes it does. The author told us flat out that he was the fastest man alive, so he was.



It's useless debating that point. The same author showed how Gai, who had eight gate, a move introduced in PART 1, was light years ahead of Ei. The same author is proving Ei and you, wrong. That's story wise. Ei was never the fastest man alive.



> No, story was he was correct since it's used to show both Minato and Naruto's speed as being the greatest. Plain simple. No, he was not wrong, because the statements is about that point, showing that characters surpassed him AFTER the statement, does NOT make the statement wrong before him being surpassed. Just like how when Naruto surpassed him did not change that he was faster than him before that.
> 
> 
> Can was say, oh Naruto was alive when he was 3 years old, and we know he will surpass A after 13 years, therefore 3 years old Naruto is also faster and that statement is wrong?



Come on Hussain, you know this is a terrible example .

The huge difference with your example is that Gai had _already_ the Eight gate available. So, Ei said he was the fastest man alive when somebody had a mode that greatly surpassed his speed.

So yes, it doesn't matter, Ei was wrong and the only way you can prove his *self* hype true is showing me why the eight gate was slower than his V2. Until then, Gai was the fastest man alive when Ei talked based on his general knowledge. And giving the author's unknown intentions says nothing, because that same author created the 8th gate when Ei said it .

@Star: Their speed should be close. No matter who's faster between both, the other doesn't have the speed advantage enough to blitz the other


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## StarWanderer (Mar 8, 2015)

> @Star: Their speed should be close. No matter who's faster between both, the other doesn't have the speed advantage enough to blitz the other



Why their speed should be close? Why the one doesnt have the speed advantage enough to blitz the other?


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Mar 8, 2015)

Ei is faster because that is what kishi wrote. "Fastest man alive". Gai was also a "man alive". We know Gai has used 7th Gate in the past because Yamato knew what Hirudora was, which means he's witnessed Hirudora. If Yamato who was in the Anbu most of his life has witnessed it, then many others, including the likes of Kakashi would have witnessed it. You don't think someone like Kaakshi wouldn't have said Gai was the fastest shinobi in the world.

Honestly, what speed feat does 7G Gai have that puts him above Ei? Surprising a visually impaired Madara? Don't make me laught, I spit at such stupidity. Some idiot said its because he pushed Madara back Loool. No, that's got nothing to do with Gais movement speed, that's taijutsu speed, the speed at which he punches and kicks. That's where Gai is superior to Ei. Movement speed however, kishis words say Gai.

It was written plain and simple. Just because Gai had 8 gates since he was young, doesn't make him the fastest. By that logic, that would have made him  the strongest shinobi in the world, since he had access to 8 gates. Any moron knows that doesn't count, because it's a suicide technique that he never used. Madara even made it apparent that he knows full well about gate users and what they're capable of. Meaning he would have come across one before, the same Madara who praised Tobirama as the fastest ninja of their era. 

I'll wait for the manga or databook statement that says Gai was the fastest man alive. And I'll be here when everyone fails to provide me that imaginary conspiracy.


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## ARGUS (Mar 8, 2015)

Ay beating guy is a joke, a funny one 
And I'm seeing the same guy bashers trying to make baseless arguments


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 8, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ei is faster because that is what kishi wrote. "Fastest man alive". Gai was also a "man alive". We know Gai has used 7th Gate in the past because Yamato knew what Hirudora was, which means he's witnessed Hirudora. If Yamato who was in the Anbu most of his life has witnessed it, then many others, including the likes of Kakashi would have witnessed it. You don't think someone like Kaakshi wouldn't have said Gai was the fastest shinobi in the world.



 Because Kakashi was there when Ei made his statement correct? 

 Tell me, do you know when Yamato saw Hirudora? 

 For all we know, that could have very well have been from a younger, less experienced Gai which implies his 7th Gate was no where near as good as it was now considering Dai's 8 Gates couldn't even kill all of the Legendary Seven Swordsman.

 Check. 



> Honestly, what speed feat does 7G Gai have that puts him above Ei? Surprising a visually impaired Madara? Don't make me laught, I spit at such stupidity. Some idiot said its because he pushed Madara back Loool. No, that's got nothing to do with Gais movement speed, that's taijutsu speed, the speed at which he punches and kicks. That's where Gai is superior to Ei. Movement speed however, kishis words say Gai.



 Oh shit, EMS Madara >> Juubidara confirmed. 

 Check. 



> It was written plain and simple. Just because Gai had 8 gates since he was young, doesn't make him the fastest. By that logic, that would have made him  the strongest shinobi in the world, since he had access to 8 gates. Any moron knows that doesn't count, because it's a suicide technique that he never used. Madara even made it apparent that he knows full well about gate users and what they're capable of. Meaning he would have come across one before, the same Madara who praised Tobirama as the fastest ninja of their era.



 Obviously because 8th Gate Dai was substantially weaker than 8th Gate Gai meaning a Younger Gai would be substantially weaker while using Gates compared to his older self that actually reached Kage Level status.

 Check. 



> I'll wait for the manga or databook statement that says Gai was the fastest man alive. And I'll be here when everyone fails to provide me that imaginary conspiracy .



 I'll wait for the manga or databook statement that says Ei is faster than 7th Gate Gai. 

 Also, LMAO @ visually impaired Juubidara. 

 Checkmate.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

> Ei is faster because that is what kishi wrote. "Fastest man alive". Gai was also a "man alive". We know Gai has used 7th Gate in the past because Yamato knew what Hirudora was, which means he's witnessed Hirudora. If Yamato who was in the Anbu most of his life has witnessed it, then many others, including the likes of Kakashi would have witnessed it. You don't think someone like Kaakshi wouldn't have said Gai was the fastest shinobi in the world.



First of all, Ei was not the fastest man alive. His self-proclaimed hype was completely wrong. Second, hype means nothing at all in the manga. Nobody said about Mark Hunt the same hype sh*t everybody said about Alistair Overeem, yet what can we see now? Where is Mark and where is Overeem? Third, what is realy important in this manga is a number of feats.



> Honestly, what speed feat does 7G Gai have that puts him above Ei? Surprising a visually impaired Madara? Don't make me laught, I spit at such stupidity. Some idiot said its because he pushed Madara back Loool. No, that's got nothing to do with Gais movement speed, that's taijutsu speed, the speed at which he punches and kicks. That's where Gai is superior to Ei. Movement speed however, kishis words say Gai.



1. Juubidara wasnt visually impaired against 8 Gate Gai, who's "energy output" is even more powerfull than that of 7 Gate Gai. 
2. There is nothing to suggest Juubidara's vision was impaled. And Juubidara is a powerfull sensor. So your arguement is rendered useless.

He surprised Juubidara with his travel speed, while Juubidara was a super-sensor (Edo Madara felt Hashirama's chakra earlier than enyone else + Hashirama's SM). And taijutsu speed = movement speed. Have you ever fought in your life? Taijutsu = hand-to-hand combat. His close combat movements were so fast Juubidara weas pressured by them and couldnt blitz Gai in the same way he blitzed SM Edo Minato.



> It was written plain and simple. Just because Gai had 8 gates since he was young, doesn't make him the fastest. By that logic, that would have made him the strongest shinobi in the world, since he had access to 8 gates. Any moron knows that doesn't count, because it's a suicide technique that he never used. Madara even made it apparent that he knows full well about gate users and what they're capable of. Meaning he would have come across one before, the same Madara who praised Tobirama as the fastest ninja of their era.



*Yes, he was the strongest shinobi in the world because he had access to 8 Gate. No matter if its a suicide technique - he can beat anyone with it. He can kill the whole Gokage with it. And it was stated in the manga what level of power Gates give. Its that simple. You got problems with that? Write a letter to Kishimoto.*

And Gai's Gates  >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> everyone else's Gates, even his father Dai's Gates.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

while i dont doubt 7th gate gai would win i find it hilarious people say base gai is a good match up for Ei
Ei who splits hachibi horn with a chop and breaks rib cage susanoo would simply run his hand through base gai guts

gai cant even block his punch without dying. u know this thing called zero durability feats and struggling against shouten yes shouten kisame!!!....Ei demolishes base gai 

as for 7th gate gai hirudora well takes the cake. 

in this match up gai would loose because its a gauntlet. we saw what gai looked like after using hirudora against Et madara once, he was out of the match


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> while i dont doubt 7th gate gai would win i find it hilarious people say base gai is a good match up for Ei
> Ei who splits hachibi horn with a chop and breaks rib cage susanoo would simply run his hand through base gai guts
> 
> gai cant even block his punch without dying. u know this thing called zero durability feats and struggling against shouten yes shouten kisame!!!....Ei demolishes base gai
> ...



But did you not see what condition Gai was in before using Hirudora?

The best evidence is Gai using Hirudora against Juubidara, getting hit by his own attack (albiet a failed version), then heading into 8th Gate and proceeding to spam attacks. All while getting over the painful effects of the 8 Gates, which were effectively killing his body. 

The first battles before Gai takes on Ei are all easy wins. His already in the 7th Gate and basically going to be blitzing (assuming we use the standard 15 meters/20 meters starting distance). The fact that Kai gave Gai replenishment from using the 7th Gate in each round means any damage done to himself is no more. So he effectively starts out fresh against Ei.

Note: Gai's durability has actually been explicitly stated in the Datebook as being very high. Hence why, quote "He can use his body like a weapon".

---

Base Gai is not beating A.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

Jad said:


> But did you not see what condition Gai was in before using Hirudora?


yes he was in that condition from using 6th gate before hand 



> The best evidence is Gai using Hirudora against Juubidara, getting hit by his own attack (albiet a failed version), then heading into 8th Gate and proceeding to spam attacks. All while getting over the painful effects of the 8 Gates, which were effectively killing his body.



its not because 8th gate gives him new limits and new stamina. hence why if u notice 8th gate was by far the longest gate usage he has used. against kisame he has only used asa kujaku and 1 hirudora and he was out from fighting till the war started. dont forget that because its inconvenient to u 


> The first battles before Gai takes on Ei are all easy wins. His already in the 7th Gate and basically going to be blitzing (assuming we use the standard 15 meters/20 meters starting distance). The fact that Kai gave Gai replenishment from using the 7th Gate in each round means any damage done to himself is no more. So he effectively starts out fresh against Ei.



starting out fresh yh. puts Ei in a bind. but if Ei can avoid hirudora he should be fine. i doubt gai regular punches can put him down. however Ei regular chop is a problem for gai. unless gai hand>>>hachibi horn or rib cage susanoo or juugo cs2 skin 



> Note: Gai's durability has actually been explicitly stated in the Datebook as being very high. Hence why, quote "He can use his body like a weapon".



his durability isnt that high. shouten kisame punched him and hurt him. gai coughed up blood and his flag jacket showed signs he was bleeding. Ei runs his hand through base gai with neg difficulty 
---



> Base Gai is not beating A.



you are at least a reasonable fan unlike SSMG or whatever its name is

like i said though 7th gate gai should beat Ei. however if it was a fair match and gai starts in base. i strongly doubt he would win because Ei can cloak up and get to him long before he gets to 7th gate.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> while i dont doubt 7th gate gai would win i find it hilarious people say base gai is a good match up for Ei
> Ei who splits hachibi horn with a chop and breaks rib cage susanoo would simply run his hand through base gai guts
> 
> gai cant even block his punch without dying. u know this thing called zero durability feats and struggling against shouten yes shouten kisame!!!....Ei demolishes base gai
> ...



Base Gai cant beat Ei because he cant damage Ei. But he is fast enough to dodge Ei's hits. Remember what KCM Naruto did to Ei? Remember what Obito did to KCM Naruto? Remember how base Gai performed against Obito?

And re-read the OP.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@starwander
U would have to prove base gai is as fast as KCM whixh U can't
Otherwise itachi is as fast as KCM
KCM naruto wasn't mocinf at full speed at all 
Defeats the purpose of combination attacks 

Base gai is faster than obito trying to grab him big whoop 
I don't see how that's impressive 

Base gai got nothing at all to show he doesn't die off the bat against Ei he got no speed at all to show that 

Unless like I said u implying Itachi can go about avoiding full speed Ei


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> =LostSelf;53052946]This is not reading comprehension. This is how YOU take it. Ei didn't know everything, unless we agree that Sakura is on BM Naruto's level, then character self statements are wrong sometimes, like this one, proven.


How do you know that A did not know? A's speed is well known since Minato's time, and during more than 2 decades no one claimed anything other than that. Why was not Gai even once stated as such?
Why did not Tsunade correct him, and say "Oh, A, how foolish of you, Gai is way faster than you... " 

I don't remember Sakura saying she is BM Naruto's level, not even once...  
Unless you mean the comparison with KCM Naruto, then there is a big different between KCM and BM. 



> It's useless debating that point. The same author showed how Gai, who had eight gate, a move introduced in PART 1, was light years ahead of Ei. The same author is proving Ei and you, wrong. That's story wise. Ei was never the fastest man alive.


lol, no it was NOT introduced in part 1, it was only MENTIONED, and since no one knew if how "fast" that gate really is, they obviously won't include it, and even if they knew, Gai never used it that time. However, Gai did use the 7th Gate several times, and Lee's reaction to see how Gai was at the start of the War also prove that... 


> Come on Hussain, you know this is a terrible example .
> 
> The huge difference with your example is that Gai had _already_ the Eight gate available. So, Ei said he was the fastest man alive when somebody had a mode that greatly surpassed his speed.



And KCM Naruto already had KCM as well, no? 
However, he was not as fast at that point, and Gai never used the 8th Gate, unlike the 7th, which I have already explained several times.. 


> So yes, it doesn't matter, Ei was wrong and the only way you can prove his *self* hype true is showing me why the eight gate was slower than his V2. Until then, Gai was the fastest man alive when Ei talked based on his general knowledge. And giving the author's unknown intentions says nothing, because that same author created the 8th gate when Ei said it .


Yes, he was wrong about the 8th Gate. Never wrong about the 7th. And it's not a "self" hype. 
his speed was known, otherwise Minato wouldn't have said "rumours said you have a really fast attack" 
The man is known for his speed for over 20 years. Why no one corrected him that Gai is faster? 

And do not tell me that Gai was not using his gates, or that people don't know about them. There are many characters that
are well known for the strongest points like Minato, Tobirama, Han, Itachi, Kakashi, Hashirama, Tsunade, Sakumo....etc
why wouldn't Gai from all the people not be known for his speciality?  

Ok, can you prove that 7th Gate Gai is faster by showing as the exact speed of both of them? 
like for example Gai being 800km/h and A for example 500km/h. Please, show us those numbers that made you think that you know better than Kishi... 

I must say tho, I like how you ignored Sakura hitting Kaguya, and how is that supposedly proves her "speed" that perhaps superior to Sasuke's S/T jutsu...


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@Lostself 
reading comprehension fails you 

Kishi from the start of the manga already stated that 8th gate would be faster than Ei. Since he said 8th gate gives you power that surpasses all hokage or kage. which ever. 

now considering gai is a taijutus specialist it makes sense that power granting him the ability to surprass the kage would give him greater speed than Ei who is a speed and taijutsu based fighter like gai 

however 7th gate which, yamato, lee and most likely tsunade have all seen and know of never once stated gai to have speed that surprasses all. like minato or Ei. who are famed for that. 

So no the author did not prove anything wrong when he made the statement Ei is the fastest man alive. as he no doubt included 7th gate. Even the databook describes Ei speed as being able to keep up with KCM however his speed fell behind minato's. 

which is basically due to hirashin. 

since u know hirashin>>8th gate gai speed. unless u think gai can get from suna to konoha before minato. if minato has a mark in konoha 

*None of what i just said changes the outcome of their battle though. Gai can take out Ei as much as Ei can take him out. Speed has never been an issue in this manga for speedsters fighting each other. its only when one opponent isnt known for speed that the speed of the faster ninja then becomes a huge issue.* 

base lee was already much faster than Ei but still couldnt beat him. till he went to create a ridiculous gap between their speeds by using gates.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> like i said though 7th gate gai should beat Ei. however if it was a fair match and gai starts in base. i strongly doubt he would win because Ei can cloak up and get to him long before he gets to 7th gate.



Even Gai's strongest punch in this gate is not enough to put A down. A survived the teleportation that is supposedly able to turn people into pieces because of the speed of light. Please don't tell me you think Gai's punch is as fast as light. 

Edit:
actually, even if his punch was as fast as light, it's still not going to put A down when he was able to survive that in BASE.




> base lee was already much faster than Ei but still couldnt beat him. till he went to create a ridiculous gap between their speeds by using gates.



You mean Gaara?


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

> U would have to prove base gai is as fast as KCM whixh U can't
> Otherwise itachi is as fast as KCM



Oh realy?

Itachi wasnt fighting the same KCM Naruto Ei fought - there were lots of KCM Naruto's Bunshins active at that moment.

And base Gai performed better than KCM Naruto against Obito.

So yeah - do the math.



> Even Gai's strongest punch in this gate is not enough to put A down. A survived the teleportation that is supposedly able to turn people into pieces because of the speed of light. Please don't tell me you think Gai's punch is as fast as light.



Speed of light? Can you prove that? 

That teleportation is fast, but nevertheless it is below Hirudora, which can damage Madara's imperfect Susanoo.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@starwanderer same applies for gai 
That wasn't 100% KCM naruto he had used a lot of chakra already U know from all his previous battles 
Which include the itachi one 
Won't that mean since gai battle against obito happened later that the KCM that fought itachi had more chakra than the KCM that gai was apparently keeping up with ?
 

you know since naruto went BM mode used BD fought 6 jin's etc. 

KCM naruto had no reason at all to be going full speed when using combination techniques with someone else. considering he just learnt Ei who he can outpace was the fastest. 

Its odd how people like to forget those obvious facts 

So u do the math. 

Again it's entirely dumb to think base gai with zero feats is faster than Ei . Considering the author very firmly disagrees with that 

@hussain 
I meant neji not Ei. Base lee was much faster than neji


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## Sferr (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> this is a basic reading comprehension works in EVERYTHING. If something new were to say/discover, then the old one does not work anymore. Other than that, it's like it is.
> 
> Story wise A is faster than him because that what the story needed at that point.
> 
> Yes it does. The author told us flat out that he was the fastest man alive, so he was.



You can have it only two ways. It's either Kishi is telling through his words that Ei is the fastest man in the manga, or it's Ei claiming what he is claiming based on information he has. 

If it's the first variant, than Ei is faster than 8th Gate Gai. Plain and simple. 

If it's the second variant, than Ei should have absolutely zero idea what Gai is capable of because Zetsu - the main Akatsuki informer and "land itself" had no idea who Gai was when he saw him. If Zetsu didn't know about Gai, than Ei surely didn't either.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> because Zetsu - the main Akatsuki informer and "land itself" had no idea who Gai was when he saw him. If Zetsu didn't know about Gai, than Ei surely didn't either.



Amazing logic. I assume all ninja in konoha did not know him as well since the amazing Zetsu did not (Even though I don't remember that honestly)
Nor did Kisame and itachi since Zetsu did not know (assuming he did not)


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

@Stefrr 
Thats silly logic
zetsu not knowing him has no baring on Ei not knowing what gai is capable of
considering before the war each village shared infromation on their ninja. 

How else did shikaku know who does what? and how to create the teams? how would he know what ninja outside konoha ninja to put in the sensory division or in the med division if he didnt know thats what they can do?

The specifics of each person jutsu granted shikaku didnt know. however Ei not knowing precisely how many gates he can use makes sense. however assuming Ei has never heard of hirudora or assuming tsunade wont have mentioned gai speed exceeds Ei is silly. 

kishi through more than one character has had ample chances to say gai speed exceeds Ei's this never happened

bar kakashi in part one saying *whoever opens 8th gate>>>kages*


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

That's actually a great point. Did not think about it....


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## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because Kakashi was there when Ei made his statement correct?



Tsunade, whose job as the Fifth Hokage involves the process of sifting through the individual skillsets of the ninja she sends out in order to determine and pick those whose abilities are the most suited for each specific mission with each specific team, was there.

We know she keeps tabs on improvements in order to keep their classified profiles up to date, too, as evidenced by her checking up on Kakashi's progression with the Mangekyō.

If Gai was faster than Ay she should have corrected him.


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

That would indicate that she's aware of how many gates he can open, but unless she's literally timed Gai during an evaluation and A informed her of his 40 yard dash time, then her opinion is irrelevant.

I doubt she's knows the specifics of how fast Gai's maximum speed truly is, and it's even less likely that she knows A's.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That would indicate that she's aware of how many gates he can open, but unless she's literally timed Gai during an evaluation and A informed her of his 40 yard dash time, then her opinion is irrelevant.
> 
> I doubt she's knows the specifics of how fast Gai's maximum speed truly is, and it's even less likely that she knows A's.



 
of course she is aware of it. i never said otherwise. i said Ei might not be aware of it. because she doesnt need to tell him that. 

she however is very aware of it. same way lee is aware of the number of gates his master can open. yamato is aware of hirudora ETC. and even noes about its AoE 

She doesnt need to time gai to know how fast gai is. She saw Ei move at naruto and would have seen gai fight. heard about gai speed from kakashi ETC. she can make an asssement from the knowledge she knows to determine that indeed Ei is faster than gai

I havent timed u or seen u run. but hussain bolt is faster than you. Or would u try to claim u are faster?

with kishi multiple chances to state gai is faster than Ei he never did that. Gai isnt even that famous despite fighting in wars. 

its important to note that speed is mainly attack speed. i think Ei can power up and get to an opponent before gai can do the same. because Ei can shroud up quicker with no risk.


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

Um I wasn't talking to you buddy, but the difference between your comparison and the manga is that Tsunade cannot visually track Raikage or Gai. There isn't any way she can calculate how long it takes either of them to get from point A to point B.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2015)

If she repeatedly checked up on _how well Kakashi used the Mangekyō_ and not just whether or not he can activate it (she'd known that for a while), then I don't see why she couldn't have checked in on _how well Gai used the Gates_, too, and not just whether or not he can open them.

Tsunade also didn't seem to be surprised at Ay's speed in V1 or V2 when they encountered Naruto and Bee, she was only impressed with Naruto's.


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## Sferr (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Amazing logic. I assume all ninja in konoha did not know him as well since the amazing Zetsu did not (Even though I don't remember that honestly)
> Nor did Kisame and itachi since Zetsu did not know (assuming he did not)



I'm pretty sure far from everyone in Konoha knows what Gai is capable of considering that he does not open 6th, let alone 7th Gates very often.

Kisame did not know what Gai was capable of till his death. And Itachi was the one who informed Akatsuki about Gai's abilities when Zetsu described him. That was when he said to not underestimate Gai. And I'm also pretty sure Itachi as well did not know full well of Gai's capabilities.



Icegaze said:


> @Stefrr
> Thats silly logic
> zetsu not knowing him has no baring on Ei not knowing what gai is capable of
> considering before the war each village shared infromation on their ninja.
> ...





FlamingRain said:


> Tsunade, whose job as the Fifth Hokage involves the process of sifting through the individual skillsets of the ninja she sends out in order to determine and pick those whose abilities are the most suited for each specific mission with each specific team, was there.
> 
> We know she keeps tabs on improvements in order to keep their classified profiles up to date, too, as evidenced by her checking up on Kakashi's progression with the Mangekyō.
> 
> If Gai was faster than Ay she should have corrected him.



That's assuming Tsunade herself knows what Gai is capable of. And judging by what Katsuyu said to Gai during the Pain invasion arc, she doesn't. And why would she? She returned to the village only a few years ago and have never seen Gai actually fight. The only information she can have on him is that Gai is a extremely strong taijutsu user and can open Gates. She would not think that Gai under 7th Gates Gai would be so extremely fast or that he would be capable of killing Juubi Jinchuuriki under 8th.

By the way, there is absolutely no reason why Gaara would know less about Gai than Ei. And he clearly didn't know about Gai's 7th Gated speed, considering how much he was surprised when he actually saw it.


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If she repeatedly checked up on _how well Kakashi used the Mangekyō_ and not just whether or not he can activate it, then I don't see why she couldn't have checked in on _how well Gai used the Gates_, too, and not just whether or not he can open them.



Keeping up on "how well he can use them" still doesn't mean that she's aware of exactly how many meters he can travel per second. Hell, Gai probably doesn't even know that, so the only way he can possibly be compared to A is if they had a race or attempted to blitz the same opponent under the same conditions. 

Tsunade may know that Gai is incredibly fast in the 7th Gate, and she may also know that A is incredibly fast as well, but she has no basis to compare the two without exact measurements.



			
				FlamingRain said:
			
		

> Tsunade also didn't seem to be surprised at Ay's speed in V1 or V2 when they encountered Naruto and Bee, she was only impressed with Naruto's.





She was impressed with Naruto's speed _solely based on how well he was doing against the Raikage._ Also, like I said, her being aware that A moves faster than she can visually process is not a reason to proclaim her a qualified person to compare him to Gai.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

@Rocky

I am kinda lost with you. lol
which one do you think is faster?


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

I personally don't know. It's likely negligible.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

> That wasn't 100% KCM naruto he had used a lot of chakra already U know from all his previous battles



When Bunshins are gone, their chakra comes back to the technique's user. So Naruto had more chakra when he fought Obito.

But... I dont think it is important in this thread if base Gai is faster, or slower than KCM Naruto. If some of his first gates is active, he is very comparable to KCM Naruto in speed, probably even faster. When he is in 7 Gate, KCM Naruto is nothing compare to him in terms of speed. Even BSM Naruto is much slower than 7 Gate Gai. I wont talk about 8 Gate.

Also, Kurama's chakra regenerates all the time. 



> KCM naruto had no reason at all to be going full speed when using combination techniques with someone else. considering he just learnt Ei who he can outpace was the fastest.



First of all, Kurama's chakra regenerates. So it could be that KCM Naruto was at least close to his prime conditions when he fought Obito. Especially when his clones were not active at that moment, as i remember.

Second, whatta hell? A World War. KCM Naruto is fighting there. He knows what will happen if Shinobi Alliance lose the war. And he is holding himself back, just because Ei told to him his cr*p that he is the fastest? 

Nice. 



> Again it's entirely dumb to think base gai with zero feats is faster than Ei .



The author makes those words for characters, but the plot can be in such a way that Character's words can be wrong. For example, someone says that nobody can defeat him and later, he is defeated. 

Characters words can be wrong, so they cant be taken as a proof of anything. Hype and praise also means nothing. 

I can bring here one example. About myself, by the way. Before there was an olympiad of english language in my university, nobody believed i can take the first place. Some other people were hyped and praised a lot. But i wasnt. At all.

And who do you think took the first place? *Me.* Hype is cr*p, praise is cr*p, and so on.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2015)

Rocky if Tsunade had no basis for comparisons as you claim then she should have been impressed with Ay's speed _just as she was with Naruto's_. That Naruto's speed garnered all of her attention instead implies existing familiarity with how fast Ay can go. There is no need for her to measure exactly how many meters per second they can cross or to see them race each other. She just has to be able to come up with a ballpark figure, and if that estimate doesn't even cause her to question Ay's status as the fastest ninja alive at the time we get pointed in the same direction, which is that Ay's faster than Gai.



Sferr said:


> That's assuming Tsunade herself knows what Gai is capable of. And judging by what Katsuyu said to Gai during the Pain invasion arc, she doesn't. And why would she? She returned to the village only a few years ago and have never seen Gai actually fight. The only information she can have on him is that Gai is a extremely strong taijutsu user and can open Gates. She would not think that Gai under 7th Gates Gai would be so extremely fast or that he would be capable of killing Juubi Jinchuuriki under 8th.



I get the feeling you didn't read anything else I said.

"Never seen Gai..." completely misses the point. How do you know she hasn't? She's the Hokage and she has information that needs to be kept up to date; she checks up on her other ninjas so exactly what is it that excludes Gai from this? Knowing that he can open the gates doesn't mean she'll stop checking up on him when she kept checking up on Kakashi _well after_ learning that he could activate the Mangekyō. To maximize effectiveness she needs to be aware of how well they can use their techniques not just whether or not they possess them. All things considered it's more likely than not that she actually does know what Gai is capable of.

Katsuyu's statement is perfectly consistent with the way Gai's tier has been treated in this manga. Gai is most comparable to Kisame and Kakashi. Kisame said Jiraiya was in another league compared to himself and Pain is the guy that beat Jiraiya, Kakashi fought two paths of Pain himself and got demolished even with backup- being astonished that Jiraiya fought all six. Gai would be destroyed if he went out there.


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## Jad (Mar 9, 2015)

You know, the longer this discussion about Ei's statement and if Tsunade knew goes on, the more it starts to creepily get into real made up territory.

All I know is A had his chance to seem somewhat impressive against Madara with his speed, but I never got that impression. However, on the other hand you have Kishi pretty much giving Gai the spot light for his 7th Gate power up, rush and combo [basically having him show up even Minato, Gaara, and Kakashi]. And that was against a much more frightening opponent.

I say if you want any simplicity in this argument, just compare the pair (Gai and A's demonstrations). Gai seemed much more impressive. It beats having to assume much more than you should.



FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu's statement is perfectly consistent with the way Gai's tier has been treated in this manga. Gai is most comparable to Kisame and Kakashi. Kisame said Jiraiya was in another league compared to himself and Pain is the guy that beat Jiraiya, Kakashi fought two paths of Pain himself and got demolished even with backup- being astonished that Jiraiya fought all six. Gai would be destroyed if he went out there.



Yeah, and in Part 2 Kisame pretty much called himself the perfect Bijuu/Jinchuuriki hunter, and claiming the more powerful his opponent, the more powerful he gets. Part 1 makes fools of us all. Even so, Kisame probably drew his knowledge from stories and legend about the Sannin [which could be mixed with truthes and lies, it happens a lot]. Which makes perfectly reasonable sense.

Also Kakashi fought the strongest Pain, Deva, alongside the most durable Pain, Asura (?). It beats the hell out of Preta, Animal Summoner, and the other dude who even I forgot his power.​


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

I don't really know how you came to that. Tsunade being impressed with Naruto and not A allows us to conclude that she had prior knowledge of A's skill set. She knew he was supposed to go fast, and he did.

Both v2 A and Gate 7 Gai are going to appear as flashes to her. The whole ballpark argument is meaningless, because I personally don't expect someone to correct another if they aren't positive they're correct.

Basically, Tsunade may not be sure who is faster, so why speak up?


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## Sferr (Mar 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I get the feeling you didn't read anything else I said.
> 
> "Never seen Gai..." completely misses the point. How do you know she hasn't? She's the Hokage and she has information that needs to be kept up to date; she checks up on her other ninjas so exactly what is it that excludes Gai from this? Knowing that he can open the gates doesn't mean she'll stop checking up on him when she kept checking up on Kakashi _well after_ learning that he could activate the Mangekyō. To maximize effectiveness she needs to be aware of how well they can use their techniques not just whether or not they possess them. All things considered it's more likely than not that she actually does know what Gai is capable of.
> 
> Katsuyu's statement is perfectly consistent with the way Gai's tier has been treated in this manga. Gai is most comparable to Kisame and Kakashi. Kisame said Jiraiya was in another league compared to himself and Pain is the guy that beat Jiraiya, Kakashi fought two paths of Pain himself and got demolished even with backup- being astonished that Jiraiya fought all six. Gai would be destroyed if he went out there.



This logic fails when you start to consider 8th Gates. Tsunade was not considering that under 8th Gates Gai could be faster than Ei. Katsuyu was not considering that 8th Gated Gai might have actually defeated Pain. (I'm also not sure how making one character easily oneshot another  is showing that they are comparable with each other).  And Gai had 8th Gates both during the Pain invasion arc and definitely during Ei's and Naruto's skirmish. That just plainly shows that Tsunade does not know full well of what Gai can be capable of. The only way Tsunade can know how fast Gai is under 7th Gate is by actually seeing it. And there is no reason to believe that Gai, a person who does not open 7th Gates easily (Gates that make him suffer afterwards) will open them so that Tsunade would see how fast he would be. Tsunade checking on Kakashi (who was a Hokage candidate and who was getting himself into hospital constantly after using MS) does not mean she would be checking on Gai unless there is a specific reason for it.


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## Mercurial (Mar 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Katsuyu's statement is perfectly consistent with the way Gai's tier has been treated in this manga. Gai is most comparable to Kisame and Kakashi. Kisame said Jiraiya was in another league compared to himself and Pain is the guy that beat Jiraiya, Kakashi fought two paths of Pain himself and got demolished even with backup- being astonished that Jiraiya fought all six. Gai would be destroyed if he went out there.



Gai was definitely portrayed far above Kisame, he stomped him everytime he fought him. He is said to be "more than equal to anyone in the Akatsuki" (that is obviously not counting the 8th Gate, because with that suicide power up he has the power to stomp the entire Akatsuki all at once in a couple of seconds), that means he can fight people like Obito, Nagato and Itachi on a more than equal ground, and that's more than backed up by his feats (). 7th Gate Gai would have murked the Six Paths by himself with just speed, power, taijutsu and taijutsu special moves, imagine against only a Deva Path.

Jiraiya fought all six, and was killed. And Deva Path didn't fight him seriously, as he was completely stomped, because he didn't even start to use the gravitational powers, as Kakashi had zero intel on these powers from Fukasaku and had to figure them by himself. Nagato sent only Animal to face Jiraiya, and then Jiraiya had to go Sennin Mode, and Nagato sent Preta and Human too. Then Jiraiya admitted he was outclassed and he would have been killed, so he had to run away and use a trick that he couldn't have performed without Shima and Fukasaku. Kakashi was fighting Deva Path, the stronger body by far, and Nagato felt he had to send the second stronger body to support him; this speaks far louder. Especially when Kakashi tricked and cornered Deva and Asura not once but twice, and that was without using the Mangekyo (he only used at the end of the fight for defensive/supportive purposes) that would have probably sealed his victory. Kishimoto also nerfed him sending Choji and Choza to fuck up everything, because they ruined his strategy: when Deva had no clue on his position and Asura was paralyzed, Kakashi would have silent blitzed him with Raikiri, or just used long range Kamui with ease, but they tried to attack and messed up everything, as it was easy for Deva to dodge them. They helped Kakashi by attacking Deva and pulling the chains, but Kakashi could have easily did the same with Kage Bunshin.


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

@FR,

Gai wouldn't have been demolished by a worn out Deva Path. Actually, protecting his village fulfills the prerequisites to opening all the gates, so he could've beat Pain by himself.


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

I dont see why on earth people are so confused by this
why imply tsunade has never seen gai fight in 7th gate?
yamato has seen it. why wont tsunade have?

implying katsuyu didnt know about 7th gate is silly. she said gai would get in the way. that doesnt mean gai was fodder or would have been beaten. just that he would get in the way. u cant have 2 nukers (hirudora and FRS fighting ) 

the would basically be counter productive. thats all she meant. 

so yh 7th gate gai would give a whole of trouble to pain. 

As for gai feat against juudara. again very slowly his faster than any other punch was countered with the same ease juudara blocked minato attack.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> Round 1: Chiyo



Gai takes out Chiyo pretty easily. Her only chance of winning is if she has poison prepared and managed to scratch him..but since he can blitz her and one shot her frail body in one blow, that doesn't seem likely to happen.



> Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi



Hirudora ends the match, and Kakashi dies.



> Round 3: Deidara



Hirudora blows back all of Deidara's explosives in his face, and then doubly fucks him over as his own explosions mix with the impact of Hirudora. Deidara dies.



> Round 4: A (4th Raikage)



Ei can match Gai in speed by merit of his Shunshin and reflexes in Raiton no Yoroi. His durability allows him to tank pretty much anything Gai throws at him, and his taijutsu skill is great enough to match Gai in a brawl too. Gai exhausts himself, and then Ei retaliates while he's tired and lands a decisive blow. Gai probably loses, but he puts Ei under a lot of pressure. 



> Round 5: Tsunade



Between her regeneration and Katsuyu, Tsunade can be batted around or pulverised without ever dying. Gai exhausts himself and then Tsunade bashes his brains out while he's on his cool down period. 



> Round 6: SM Naruto



Probably durable enough to take a few hits from Gai. His Frog Kata used in unison with Kage Bunshin and the aid of Ma/Pa's diverse set of ninjutsu give Naruto the win. 



> Round 7: Onoki



Onoki is at a perfect range to set up a massive jinton beam and vaporise Gai from the outset. If Gai managed to evade it somehow, then the Tsuchikage might have screwed himself over, because he probably can't use it again. That said, Gai isn't overly bright. Onoki could use a bunshin feint to distract Gai and hit him with the Ultra Heavy Weight Technique. Then it would simply be a matter of hitting him with a normal-size jinton, which he wouldn't be able to dodge because of his body weight. I think Onoki wins more times than not.



> Round 8: Itachi



Itachi camps in a fully armoured Susano'o shield and then lights Gai ablaze with Amaterasu once he's in close range. As far as I'm aware, Gated Gai doesn't have the necessary reactions to continually evade Amaterasu flames. That said, if this is sick Itachi, then he might die before Gai does, because he is absolutely going to need to spam MS techniques to have any chance of winning. I think this match all depends on who succumbs to exhaustion first, but since Gai starts off in the seventh gate and is probably going to use Hirudora early on, I think it will probably be him.



> Round 9: Minato



Minato has the reactions necessary to dodge Gai's attacks. He should be able to tag Gai in order to Hiraishin behind him and evade Hirudora too. My only concern is that he lacks significant fire power to hurt him; Gai is quite durable after all. However, it will be easier to inflict damage when Gai is tired out, and repeated Rasengans and Sage Mode jutsu are bound to ware him out.



> Round 10: Nagato



Nagato's Shinra Tensei effectively negates anything that Gai tries to do. I'm fairly certain his reflexes are high enough to cope with the speed of Gai's attacks. Basically, Nagato wears him out with repeated Shinra Tenseis, and then ends him once the effects of gates ware off.


__________


7th Gated Gai is about Mid-Kage level and stops at Ei, who is just above him in the same tier.​​


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## Icegaze (Mar 9, 2015)

The last 2 matches gai stands no chance of winning at all 
The rest outside a gauntlet scenario he could win


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## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2015)

Didn't Kai say Gai was healed after each match?

Oh, damage from opponents stays, but if he won wouldn't he have avoided taking damage from them? Since their attacks could kind of...kill him?



Rocky said:


> Gai wouldn't have been demolished by a worn out Deva Path. Actually, protecting his village fulfills the prerequisites to opening all the gates, so he could've beat Pain by himself.



Deva didn't look exhausted at the time. Since he's an animated corpse he should only be able to lose Chakra, which replenishes as long as Nagato is powering him, and not stamina. He didn't perform like he was exhausted either, Shinra Tensei dispersing a Rasenshuriken before dodging the one in its shadow at point-blank Rasenshuriken as he took out Naruto's clones, and Shinra Tensei blasting another horde of shadow clones immediately after that. _Nagato_ may have been exhausting himself at that point but it's not like Katsuyu stopped by to ask how he was holding up before telling Gai not to interfere.

And Naruto requested that nobody else interfere for their own safety. Gai killing himself is obviously not safe for Gai, so it wouldn't matter if he could use the 8th gate and win or not because it still goes against Naruto's intentions.



Jad said:


> Yeah, and in Part 2 Kisame pretty much called himself the perfect Bijuu/Jinchuuriki hunter, and claiming the more powerful his opponent, the more powerful he gets.​



Which _is_ impressive, but also an example of a ridiculous matchup advantage instead of a reflection of Kisame's general threat level. His skillset is _tailor-made_ to combat Jinchūriki. Kisame will never perform as well as he did against Bee against anyone else who doesn't consistently cloak themselves and their attacks in raw Chakra that is easily absorbed and converted into Kisame's own power.



> Even so, Kisame probably drew his knowledge from stories and legend about the Sannin [which could be mixed with truthes and lies, it happens a lot].​



Kabuto did that, and he's smarter than Kisame, yet he wound up having _under_estimated the Sannin.

Why is it more likely that Kisame _over_estimated them? When Itachi and Kisame actually ran into Jiraiya it seemed like Kisame was right on the mark with his earlier comments, since Jiraiya's opening Jutsu had him panicked and they only escaped because of his superior partner named Itachi.



> Also Kakashi fought the strongest Pain, Deva, alongside the most durable Pain, Asura (?). It beats the hell out of Preta, Animal Summoner, and the other dude who even I forgot his power.​



What part of "Jiraiya fought _all six_" do you not understand?



Rocky said:


> I don't really know how you came to that. Tsunade being impressed with Naruto and not A allows us to conclude that she had prior knowledge of A's skill set. She knew he was supposed to go fast, and he did.



Look at what happened when Minato fought Ay and Bee. They were both supposed to go fast and yet each surprised each other nonetheless, because they didn't know beforehand _how_ fast. If she knew he was supposed to go fast but now _how_ fast then he should have still surprised her. He didn't though, _Naruto_ did, because she didn't know how fast _he_ could go.



> Both v2 A and Gate 7 Gai are going to appear as flashes to her. The whole ballpark argument is meaningless, because I personally don't expect someone to correct another if they aren't positive they're correct.



This is Tsunade we're talking about, though. How positive could she have been that Naruto was stronger than Pain knew, since she didn't know Pain in order to know how much he knows? She said it anyway. If the difference wasn't even discernible _that'd_ be a reason to question the authoritative claim that Ay was the world's fastest.

V2 Ay tried striking Madara and he was still able to put up a guard despite being preoccupied with Mei's Yoton until Raikage was already right in his face. When Tsunade and Ay got shot out of Tensō no Jutsu immediately in front of Madara and Mū she angled her kick beneath this same Madara's attempt to block.

She'd notice at least how quickly they reappear after they disappear; if Ay wasn't faster than Gai she would have voiced it.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> Minato has the reactions necessary to dodge Gai's attacks. He should be able to tag Gai in order to Hiraishin behind him and evade Hirudora too. My only concern is that he lacks significant fire power to hurt him; Gai is quite durable after all. However, it will be easier to inflict damage when Gai is tired out, and repeated Rasengans and Sage Mode jutsu are bound to ware him out.




Naruto's rassengan in SM opened a hole in JJ Obito. 
Minato's rassenga made Obito's hand get completely destroyed even though he had Hashirama's cells and
healing  abilities. 

When did Gai take on jutsu as powerful anyway?


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> If she knew he was supposed to go fast but now _how_ fast then he should have still surprised her. He didn't though, _Naruto_ did, because she didn't know how fast _he_ could go.



Honestly, I simply don't understand your thought process on this one. Tsunade didn't know that Naruto could go fast, _period._ The fact that Naruto could match A's pace is what merited surprise. 

I don't understand what you expected Tsunade's reaction to be. Like, "wow, he's really fast!"..? There is no need for that; she was already aware. A was surprised that Minato was able to avoid his unavoidable punch, but since Tsunade was not fighting A in this scenario, I don't see the reason to bring that up. Furthermore, Minato was not surprised by A's speed once in that battle.



> This is Tsunade we're talking about, though. How positive could she have been that Naruto was stronger than Pain knew, since she didn't know Pain in order to know how much he knows? She said it anyway. If the difference wasn't even discernible _that'd_ be a reason to question the authoritative claim that Ay was the world's fastest.



You'll have to link me so I can read that statement in context. If she was making that statement to say that Naruto was stronger than Pain, then she was wrong, which only supports my point.

I also disagree that there being no visible difference is a reason to interrupt. She could have trolled his moment and said that she didn't think he was definitively faster than some Jonin from her village, but what does that add? 



> V2 Ay tried striking Madara and he was still able to put up a guard despite being preoccupied with Mei's Yoton until Raikage was already right in his face. When Tsunade and Ay got shot out of Tensō no Jutsu immediately in front of Madara and Mū she angled her kick beneath this same Madara's attempt to block.



What is the point of you telling me this. The Raikage doesn't angle his punches under guards. He usually doesn't need to given his herculean strength, unlike Tsunade in that situation who had her muscles torn to shreds from that transfer technique. In A's case against Madara, he didn't have time anyway given that Madara blocked at the _last possible moment._

If you are trying to say that Tsunade can follow v2 A with her eyes when Mangekyou Sharingan Sasuke failed to do so, then you'll have to give me more than that.



> She'd notice at least how quickly they reappear after they disappear; if Ay wasn't faster than Gai she would have voiced it.



Tell me this: why wouldn't she have spoken up about the 8th Gate then? Personally, I don't think she would have spoken up in that instance because correcting the Raikage there serves no purpose, but if you believe she would have, then why didn't she mention that Gai has the potential to go faster?


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## Rocky (Mar 9, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Deva didn't look exhausted at the time. Since he's an animated corpse he should only be able to lose Chakra, which replenishes as long as Nagato is powering him, and not stamina.



Well he _did_ lose stamina, and he didn't exactly look fresh even before that. Nevertheless, 7th Gate Gai would not have gotten in a worn Naruto's way. That's just ridiculous. 



> And Naruto requested that nobody else interfere for their own safety. Gai killing himself is obviously not safe for Gai, so it wouldn't matter if he could use the 8th gate and win or not because it still goes against Naruto's intentions.



If you believe Katsuyu said what she did to Gai because Naruto was trying to keep everyone safe by doing it alone, then they were both in the wrong:



7th Gate Gai & 5th (or 6th) Gate Lee are not non-factors against any individual Pain body, and they certainly aren't when paired with Naruto.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto's rassengan in SM opened a whole in JJ Obito.
> Minato's rassenga made Obito's hand get completely destroyed even though he had Hashirama's cells and
> healing  abilities.
> 
> When did Gai take on jutsu as powerful anyway?



Fair enough, I forgot how destructive a SM Rasengan could be.​​


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

> 7th Gated Gai is about Mid-Kage level and stops at Ei, who is just above him in the same tier.



7 Gate Gai clears this list and Ei cant beat him. Ei is not fast enough to compete with Juubidara, with whom 7 Gate Gai could compete. 7 Gate Gai speedblitz Ei with Hirudora.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Naruto's rassengan in SM opened a whole in JJ Obito.
> Minato's rassenga made Obito's hand get completely destroyed even though he had Hashirama's cells and
> healing  abilities.
> 
> When did Gai take on jutsu as powerful anyway?



 Hope you do realize Juubi Jin are weak to Senjutsu and that SM Naruto struck his weak-spot. Way to ignore Juubito outright tanking Naruto and Sasuke's Futon + Enton combination like it was nothing.

 Hashirama's cells also don't grant the user with durability or regeneration to the point where it'd actually heal wounds very quickly. Only Hashirama can do that and quite frankly, the users of Hashi's cells have only a small portion of Hashirama's cells and aren't capable of handling it as well as Hashirama can which negates any user being capable of getting any notable egeneration. I don't even believe it was ever implied that Obito, Danzo, Yamato, or even Madara got any regeneration out of it (Madara's being caused by Hashi's Senjutsu Chakra).

 But yeah, I doubt any Gated User can take a hit head on considering their muscles are being torn to shreds, but then again, that depends on the strength of the attack. A Rasengan will likely fuck Gai up, but considering he can actually handle the pain of using the 8th Gates and survive even after all that, I don't know. Will likely injure one of his body parts at the very least I'd think.


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> [=NarutoX28;53065169]Hope you do realize Juubi Jin are weak to Senjutsu and that SM Naruto struck his weak-spot. Way to ignore Juubito outright tanking Naruto and Sasuke's Futon + Enton combination like it was nothing.


And? 
He healed himself from that damage, but he still got damaged. Being weak against something does not mean any amount of that thing would hurt you. For example, the lightning is weaker than the wind, and yet the Raikage tanked Naruto's FRS.  


> Hashirama's cells also don't grant the user with durability or regeneration to the point where it'd actually heal wounds very quickly. Only Hashirama can do that and quite frankly, the users of Hashi's cells have only a small portion of Hashirama's cells and aren't capable of handling it as well as Hashirama can which negates any user being capable of getting any notable egeneration. I don't even believe it was ever implied that Obito, Danzo, Yamato, or even Madara got any regeneration out of it (Madara's being caused by Hashi's Senjutsu Chakra).


Says you? 
Because it was shown and stated otherwise. 
and Obito does not have small portion of his cells, half of his body is made of it. 

Don't care what you believe, it was directly shown. 
_did_

even in the filler




> But yeah, I doubt any Gated User can take a hit head on considering their muscles are being torn to shreds, but then again, that depends on the strength of the attack. A Rasengan will likely fuck Gai up, but considering he can actually handle the pain of using the 8th Gates and survive even after all that, I don't know. Will likely injure one of his body parts at the very least I'd think.


The 8th Gate gives him new limitation, I don't know what's with people bring up such foolish points to lower gates! 

Can SM Naruto use 9 FRS because his RM self can? :amazed

Also, the Rassengan damage the body from the inside, even Kabuto with A-Rank healing jutsu that Tsunade claimed to have surpassed her in her prime was barely able to move from Naruto's first Rassengan which is no where near as powerful as base Minato's Rassengan...


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## StarWanderer (Mar 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hope you do realize Juubi Jin are weak to Senjutsu and that SM Naruto struck his weak-spot. Way to ignore Juubito outright tanking Naruto and Sasuke's Futon + Enton combination like it was nothing.
> 
> Hashirama's cells also don't grant the user with durability or regeneration to the point where it'd actually heal wounds very quickly. Only Hashirama can do that and quite frankly, the users of Hashi's cells have only a small portion of Hashirama's cells and aren't capable of handling it as well as Hashirama can which negates any user being capable of getting any notable egeneration. I don't even believe it was ever implied that Obito, Danzo, Yamato, or even Madara got any regeneration out of it (Madara's being caused by Hashi's Senjutsu Chakra).
> 
> But yeah, I doubt any Gated User can take a hit head on considering their muscles are being torn to shreds, but then again, that depends on the strength of the attack. A Rasengan will likely fuck Gai up, but considering he can actually handle the pain of using the 8th Gates and survive even after all that, I don't know. Will likely injure one of his body parts at the very least I'd think.



7 Gate Gai's durability is not a factor here at all, when he can speedblitz people and dodge their attacks easily.


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## ARGUS (Mar 9, 2015)

Sigh, it seems that this thread is turning into a joke, or more like an embarassment 
in what world is Ay beating Guy? 

 -- Guys reactions and striking speed >> SM Minatos > Minatos > Ays,

> SM minato teleports and attempts to attack madara, he then gets one shotteed with his arm chopped off and tossed back at him before he even has time to react, and this is the same guy who is above base minato, who schooled Ays top speed, and tagged him with literally no effort

> 7th gate guy on the other hand, attempts to attack madara, and not only tags him but lands clean blows on him as well as avoiding his TSBs and staff, then there is the fact that he executed his hirudora on an opponent of JJ madaras level, and was fast enough to make him unable to evade his attack, forcing him to block instead, 

with all the above being said, people have the nerve to say that Guy is slower than Ay? 
an important thing to note is that its not the movement speed  that enables to land hits, its the superior reactions and striking speed that helps them do such things, and GUy is well above Ay in that department so he lands them perfectly 

Guys movement speed being below Ay is based on nothing but a baseless claim, and is completely illogical 

there is also the BS going on about Ay tanking hirudora, which is also obviously a joke, 

 -- Hirudora eradicated V3 susanoo and pushed back madara himself to an extent where madaras control over the mokuton was compeltely gone, 
Ays durability has not been shown anywhere near  that level, his durability is piss poor infront of his fathers 

inb4, kisame tanked it, Lol god no he didnt, 
especially when we have the fact that hirudora had to go through something as large as GSB which also diminshed it abit, in-order to go at Kisame, and even then it raped him
and the larger the hirudora, the less focused and weaker it is, so a full frontal focused hirudora would obviously finish kisame or Ay to paste


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> in what world is Ay beating Guy?



Naruto's world.



> > SM minato teleports and attempts to attack madara, he then gets one shotteed with his arm chopped off and tossed back at him before he even has time to react, and this is the same guy who is above base minato, who schooled Ays top speed, and tagged him with literally no effort



Let me see this. SM Minato is the same Minato who is above base Minato. This is the same guy that wiped the floor with Kamui, when it trolled JJ SM Madara
with absolutly no effort. 

The same base Minato who out-sped 5th step 8th Gate Gai who is >>>>>>>>>>>> 7th Gate Gai, without him moving an inch...etc





> > 7th gate guy on the other hand, attempts to attack madara, and not only tags him but lands clean blows on him as well as avoiding his TSBs and staff, then there is the fact that he executed his hirudora on an opponent of JJ madaras level, and was fast enough to make him unable to evade his attack, forcing him to block instead,



Indeed, just like how Sakura attacked Kaguya in her strongest form, when Sasuke failed against a weaker one over and over again. That's a prove
of how Sakura is stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke.



> with all the above being said, people have the nerve to say that Guy is slower than Ay?
> an important thing to note is that its not the movement speed that enables to land hits, its the superior reactions and striking speed that helps them do such things, and GUy is well above Ay in that department so he lands them perfectly



I know right?
People also have the nerves to say Madara is stronger than chojiro, when madara got fodderstompped by Zetsu.
or they have the nerves to say Hashirama is powerful when he suffered against madara, and Lee fodderstompped him one kick.

Those people... 



> Guys movement speed being below Ay is based on nothing but a baseless claim, and is completely illogical



True, since when Kishi knows anything anyway, of course he is just a foolish guy who does not know anything 



> there is also the BS going on about Ay tanking hirudora, which is also obviously a joke,



Indeed, it's not like his body survived the lightning speed or anything, right? And we know that Gai is several tiers above lightning speed
and how A's body is no where near as powerful as Kisame, I mean, is it? Those foolish people never learn...



> -- Hirudora eradicated V3 susanoo and pushed back madara himself to an extent where madaras control over the mokuton was compeltely gone,
> Ays durability has not been shown anywhere near that level, his durability is piss poor infront of his fathers



That's completely true, that's why he was compared to his father when he was going to be teleported in base. Of course that's such a shitty feat...
everyone with a brain know that Gai is faster than light...



> inb4, kisame tanked it, Lol god no he didnt,
> especially when we have the fact that hirudora had to go through something as large as GSB which also diminshed it abit, in-order to go at Kisame, and even then it raped him
> and the larger the hirudora, the less focused and weaker it is, so a full frontal focused hirudora would obviously finish kisame or Ay to paste



Indeed, those delusional folks blind their eyes, and haven't seen Kisame getting killed right away, the wank is real with them.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 9, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And?
> He healed himself from that damage, but he still got damaged. Being weak against something does not mean any amount of that thing would hurt you. For example, the lightning is weaker than the wind, and yet the Raikage tanked Naruto's FRS.



 He received an injury that SM Naruto utilized against him. The only reason A didn't really feel anything is because Edo Tensei's have a higher pain tolerance than their Alive bodies which is clear when both Muu and Madara were perfectly fine after being affected by Madara's AoE of his two enormous Meteors.

 Sure, but it's outright stated that Senjutsu counters Juubi Jin and that Naruto struck his weak-spot. Are we to assume Edo Madara is more durable than Juubito because Madara was shown to be able to take SM Naruto's Chou Oodama Rasenshuriken and Hashirama's Gates?  
 Even Juubidara who was far more arrogant than Juubito couldn't even afford taking a hit from SM Minato's Rasengan and Juubidara >> Juubito, the same person who managed to survive Naruto and Sasuke's Kyuubisano piercing through his gut. 



> Says you?
> Because it was shown and stated otherwise.
> and Obito does not have small portion of his cells, half of his body is made of it.
> 
> ...



 Healing a minor wound is hardly an impressive feat.

 Hashi's Regen still didn't help Obito recover from a punch in the gut by a Weakened Kakashi now did it?

 Oh man, filler shows that Obito can heal minor wounds. That's hardly impressive.

 I specifically mentioned "notable regeneration" meaning anything worth commenting on. Healing minor wounds is hardly classified as notable regeneration.




> The 8th Gate gives him new limitation, I don't know what's with people bring up such foolish points to lower gates!



 I didn't mention anything about Gai lowering his gates. I don't know why he would anyways. 



> Can SM Naruto use 9 FRS because his RM self can? :amazed



 I don't, I don't ... I don't understand your point. 



> Also, the Rassengan damage the body from the inside, even Kabuto with A-Rank healing jutsu that Tsunade claimed to have surpassed her in her prime was barely able to move from Naruto's first Rassengan which is no where near as powerful as base Minato's Rassengan...



 Meh, Obito managed to tank KCM Naruto's Rasengan to the shoulder and KCM Naruto has much more fire-power than Base Minato. 

 Your argument does seem convincing though. 

 I'll concede to this considering Gai's muscles are actually being torn to shreds.


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## Kai (Mar 9, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Healing a minor wound is hardly an impressive feat.
> 
> Hashi's Regen still didn't help Obito recover from a punch in the gut by a Weakened Kakashi now did it?
> 
> ...


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## Trojan (Mar 9, 2015)

> =NarutoX28;53066441]He received an injury that SM Naruto utilized against him. The only reason A didn't really feel anything is because Edo Tensei's have a higher pain tolerance than their Alive bodies which is clear when both Muu and Madara were perfectly fine after being affected by Madara's AoE of his two enormous Meteors.


Both Mu and Madara got completetly destroyed, and regenerated after that. None of which happened to the Raikage. 



> Healing a minor wound is hardly an impressive feat.
> 
> Hashi's Regen still didn't help Obito recover from a punch in the gut by a Weakened Kakashi now did it?
> 
> ...


The point is he had it. The damaged was healed and that's what's important, how do you want him to heal "extra"? 

Who said his healing makes you immune to pain? Obito after that fought just fin for hours..

Except the Rassengan IS notable as even the ET itself takes time to make the victim fully healed as in Mu's case.  





> I didn't mention anything about Gai lowering his gates. I don't know why he would anyways.
> I don't, I don't ... I don't understand your point.


What I mean is, if the 8th Gates give Gai new abilities, and limitations, that CANNOT be applied to the others because his power has increased, and his endure to the pain as well. 

Naruto in his RM has enough chakra to use 9 FRS, but just because he has that chakra in that mode, does not make him able to do the same in his SM. The same with Gai, just because he can do something in the 8th Gate does not mean he can do it in the 7th Gate. 


> Meh, Obito managed to tank KCM Naruto's Rasengan to the shoulder and KCM Naruto has much more fire-power than Base Minato.


Actually Minato's Rassengan in base showed more power than Naruto's KCM rassengan as well..


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 9, 2015)

Kai said:


>



 Oh never mind, Obito was regenerating from KCM Naruto's blow at a hefty rate.

 I take back what I said. Accept my concession.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Both Mu and Madara got completetly destroyed, and regenerated after that. None of which happened to the Raikage.



 Better examples would be Itachi having similar pain tolerance that EMS Sasuke had towards Susanoo or Muu getting punched in by Ei that actually managed to crack some of Madara's V3 Susanoo's ribs while still being relatively fine, Edo Madara not even wincing in pain at part of his body being obliterated by Onoki's Mass Jinton, or Kakuzu getting sliced through while not even cringing at all.

 Raikage's feat is impressive, but he still sustained damage and got an injury because of it and due to Edo Tensei's increased tolerance of pain, allowed himself to feel relatively fine.





> What I mean is, if the 8th Gates give Gai new abilities, and limitations, that CANNOT be applied to the others because his power has increased, and his endure to the pain as well.



 This is actually rather true.



> Naruto in his RM has enough chakra to use 9 FRS, but just because he has that chakra in that mode, does not make him able to do the same in his SM. The same with Gai, just because he can do something in the 8th Gate does not mean he can do it in the 7th Gate.



 True. Didn't mean to imply that, but I can see why you would think I did.



> Actually Minato's Rassengan in base showed more power than Naruto's KCM rassengan as well..



 Any feats of this?


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## Veracity (Mar 10, 2015)

I thought Edo's never felt pain....


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## StarWanderer (Mar 10, 2015)

> Naruto's world.



Wrong - your fantasy world. Ei cant beat 7 Gate Gai.



> Let me see this. SM Minato is the same Minato who is above base Minato. This is the same guy that wiped the floor with Kamui, when it trolled JJ SM Madara
> with absolutly no effort.
> 
> The same base Minato who out-sped 5th step 8th Gate Gai who is >>>>>>>>>>>> 7th Gate Gai, without him moving an inch...etc



It is completely illogical and irrational. I will explain why.

First of all, Obito almost killed Minato in their fight. He took his hand and almost got him in Kamui. Later, he caught him with his chains. It was not easy at all.

Second, SM Edo Minato could be a little bit higher than alive base Minato due to SM, but alive base Minato >>>>>>>> Edo base Minato due to Orochimaru's Edo reanimation, which havent brought Hokages with their full power.

Third, Obito "trolled" Juubidara with his Kamui due to Senjutsu chakra and Rikudou's chakra he absorbed from Juubidara. 

Also, it is stupid to suggest base Edo Minato realy outpased 8 Gate Gai, when SM Edo Minato, who is superior to base Edo Minato, was speedblitzed by Juubidara. Plus, Minato was infront of Gai because of Lee's Kunai's thrown. And Gaara's sand could "keep up" with Gai, although Gaara said before that his sand cant keep up with Juubidara's Gudoudama. And Kakashi also reacted to 8 Gate Gai there. It is obvious that 8 Gate Gai slowed down to let his comrades help him. Because he wanted to hit Juubidara himself, not his Gudoudama.



> Indeed, just like how Sakura attacked Kaguya in her strongest form, when Sasuke failed against a weaker one over and over again. That's a prove
> of how Sakura is stronger than Rinnegan Sasuke.



Sakura hit her while she was trying to dodge Sasuke and Naruto. And she hit her only once, from above. Its not the same as 7 Gate Gai *keeping up* with Juubidara.

Terrible example, Hussain. 



> I know right?
> People also have the nerves to say Madara is stronger than chojiro, when madara got fodderstompped by Zetsu.
> or they have the nerves to say Hashirama is powerful when he suffered against madara, and Lee fodderstompped him one kick.
> 
> Those people...



Terrible example, again. Zetsu was few inches behind him and attacked him from behind, when Juubidara didnt expect that because he thought Zetsu is *his* will.

Another terrible example. Madara was attached to Juubi and was trying to gain control over Juubi. And that Lee had Kurama's chakra.





> True, since when Kishi knows anything anyway, of course he is just a foolish guy who does not know anything



He is the God of Naruto Manga. And he made Gai *that* powerfull. You dont like it? Well, thats your problem.



> Indeed, it's not like his body survived the lightning speed or anything, right? And we know that Gai is several tiers above lightning speed
> and how A's body is no where near as powerful as Kisame, I mean, is it? Those foolish people never learn...



Lightning speed teleportation >>>> Hirudora? And was it truly a lightning speed?

Gai didnt want to kill Kisame. Realy, he was bleeding from a casual 7 Gate hit and yet he wasnt torn to peaces with Hirudora? 

And you also forget Sasuke's Chidori and Bee's Lariat.

Hirudora to the jaw takes him out. 



> That's completely true, that's why he was compared to his father when he was going to be teleported in base. Of course that's such a shitty feat...
> everyone with a brain know that Gai is faster than light...



See those quastions above? 



> Indeed, those delusional folks blind their eyes, and haven't seen Kisame getting killed right away, the wank is real with them.



Because of that shark, and because Gai didnt want to kill him.


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

> Any feats of this?



Minato's Rassengan impact
_did_

Naruto's 
_did_
_did_


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato's Rassengan impact
> _did_
> 
> Naruto's
> ...



 Except KCM Naruto's Rasengan outright demolished the guy he used it on while Minato actually caught a featless Young Obito off-guard and failed to demolish him. Sure his arm was damaged, but that didn't even compare to outright destroying a person with a single Rasengan.

 Fact of the matter is, BM Minato and BM Naruto have the same damage output, so logically, KCM Naruto's damage output is greater than Base Minato's.

 While we're on the subject, 3rd Raikage's body is not entirely made up of Raiton, only his armor is, so thus, Futon is only effective against his armor, but is not super effective against the Raikage's skin while Juubito's entire body is practically made up of Senjutsu which is stated to be countered by Senjutsu. 

 @Likesboss

 This is what I thought, but Hussain seems to think otherwise.


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

I don't care about that old story which is already covered with dust and dirt. I don't see how Obito's knowledge, or lack thereof would change how strong the rassengan is.  

long story short, Minato's rassengan showed more impact than Naruto. The excuses you creates are useless and do not change anything.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't care about that old story which is already covered with dust and dirt. I don't see how Obito's knowledge, or lack thereof would change how strong the rassengan is.
> 
> long story short, Minato's rassengan showed more impact than Naruto. The excuses you creates are useless and do not change anything.



 Likely because KCM Naruto's Rasengan was more focused allowing it to have more of an impact on the people that it was used on.

 Unless you can prove Young Obito has increased durability, then your scans proved nothing.


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## Trojan (Mar 10, 2015)

Obito had the same body as zetsu.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 10, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Obito had the same body as zetsu.



 Except Obito only received enough of Hashirama's cells to even move the body, not enough to actually fight with it meaning he actually had to recover. Considering Obito at the time had a small amount of Hashirama's cells, I doubt his durability was increased that much.

 And also, I'm certain Minato struck Obito's arm that was not made up of Zetsu's body 

 What makes matters worse is that Obito managed to jump out of Minato's Rasengan despite suffering from the brunt of Minato's Rasengan.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2015)

Since when Obito's durability is important here?


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## FlamingRain (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Honestly, I simply don't understand your thought process on this one. Tsunade didn't know that Naruto could go fast, _period._



Actually she knew that the Kyūbi's Chakra enhanced his speed because she was informed of what everybody did at the Chūnin Exams once she came into office (I daresay the power up from even that is up there with a few of the Gates since it allowed Naruto to defeat the guy Lee admitted was stronger than he was _during the Chūnin Exam where he used 5 of the Gates_ _(1)_), and she knew that he was in Kyūbi Chakra Mode upon their arrival, so it would have been obvious to her that Naruto could go fast. The only thing she didn't know was _how_ fast, which is why she was surprised. 



> I don't understand what you expected Tsunade's reaction to be. Like, "wow, he's really fast!"..? There is no need for that; she was already aware.



I'm aware that there was no need for her to say that, what I'm saying is that there was no need for it _because_ she already knew how fast Ay was. Your claim is that she didn't and was only aware by hearsay, but by that same token there would have been no need for her to make a remark about Naruto's speed either because she was already aware that the Kyūbi's Chakra made him go fast and here he was having mastered it. If she wasn't actually familiar with Ay's speed and only aware through his reputation then she should've said something like "the speed these two are moving at is amazing" instead of "it's amazing that you're able to match the Raikage's speed".



> A was surprised that Minato was able to avoid his unavoidable punch, but since Tsunade was not fighting A in this scenario, I don't see the reason to bring that up. Furthermore, Minato was not surprised by A's speed once in that battle.



"Minato was not surprised,"...lol? Playing ignorant on purpose? This _(2)_ is a far cry from this _(3)_. If you're saying that we're supposed to look at Minato's wide-eyed wtf expression and somehow _not_ think that he was surprised I'm just going to go for a swim in all the lols to come.

As for Ay, he threw more than one "unavoidable punch", and he wasn't surprised when Minato avoided his next one. Why? Because at that point he knew how fast Minato was.



> You'll have to link me so I can read that statement in context. If she was making that statement to say that Naruto was stronger than Pain, then she was wrong, which only supports my point.



It was in the context of responding to Pain's sentiment about Konoha's ability to keep protecting Naruto. I fail to see how it would support your point, because your point was that she wouldn't say anything if she wasn't certain she was correct; there's no way she could have been certain of what she told Pain and yet that apparently didn't stop her from saying it.



> She could have trolled his moment and said that she didn't think he was definitively faster than some Jonin from her village, but what does that add?



Maybe for the same reason she told Raikage to stop kissing up to her instead of agreeing with him that they had some fine underlings.



> What is the point of you telling me this.



It being the last possible moment.

Ay said Naruto was the second person to ever dodge his full-speed, not react to it (it's just that he'd break most defenses anyway; that's why Kishi made him strong and tough instead of just speedy). Re-coordinating a strike to land under an attempt to guard requires the strike to move with at least comparable swiftness to the guard, and in order to throw a strike you have to know what's going on/be reacting, so if Madara can get his arms up quickly enough to guard against Ay at the last possible moment, and Tsunade can readjust her legs to hit beneath such a guard once its raised, then she should be able to notice when Ay reappears after disappearing. He's not going _*so*_ fast that she can't even realize how quickly he's moved.



> Tell me this: why wouldn't she have spoken up about the 8th Gate then?



Because 8th Gated Gai did not exist yet, and it kills him. Same reason we have Hiruzen saying nobody in the village could stand up to Orochimaru despite 8th Gate > Hokage being established back in the Chūnin Exam Prelims, Choza not bringing it up when Dan said nobody could beat Madara besides Hashirama, and even Kakashi telling Gai he couldn't use it because he would die when they were confronted with the 5 Bijūdama (that last one just seems silly if they were gonna die anyway, but?it's there).



> Well he did lose stamina, and he didn't exactly look fresh even before that.



You could only tell _after_ Katsuyu's warning, so...

They don't have to be non-factors for Naruto to be worried about their safety. I mean it only takes one strong Shinra Tensei to cripple them, possibly even at the same time since they tend to attack together _(4)_, almost like Choji and Choza, or the Gama Trio.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Actually she knew that the Kyūbi's Chakra enhanced his speed because she was informed of what everybody did at the Chūnin Exams once she came into office (I daresay the power up from even that is up there with a few of the Gates since it allowed Naruto to defeat the guy Lee admitted was stronger than he was _during the Chūnin Exam where he used 5 of the Gates_ _(1)_), and she knew that he was in Kyūbi Chakra Mode upon their arrival, so it would have been obvious to her that Naruto could go fast. The only thing she didn't know was _how_ fast, which is why she was surprised.
> 
> I'm aware that there was no need for her to say that, what I'm saying is that there was no need for it _because_ she already knew how fast Ay was. Your claim is that she didn't and was only aware by hearsay, but by that same token there would have been no need for her to make a remark about Naruto's speed either because she was already aware that the Kyūbi's Chakra made him go fast and here he was having mastered it.



There is a rather _large_ difference between Chunin Naruto's fast and v2 A's fast. Tsunade was aware that Kurama's chakra enhanced Naruto's speed, but she didn't know that he had ascended into the upper echelon of speedsters that A was sitting at. 

Tsunade likely knew that A was one of the quickest shinobi in existence, and the boost Naruto had received in the past from Kyubi forms do not compare. Tsunade can be shocked by Naruto's ability to keep pace with A and still be unaware of _precisely_ how fast A is going because Naruto's previous speed was nowhere near "fastest dude ever" tier. 



> If she wasn't actually familiar with Ay's speed and only aware through his reputation then she should've said something like "the speed these two are moving at is amazing" instead of "it's amazing that you're able to match the Raikage's speed".



What Tsunade said was fine considering that A's reputation as "the fastest shinobi" is _exponentially_ above what she previously thought Naruto was capable of competing with.



> "Minato was not surprised,"...lol? Playing ignorant on purpose? This _(2)_ is a far cry from this _(3)_. If you're saying that we're supposed to look at Minato's wide-eyed wtf expression and somehow _not_ think that he was surprised I'm just going to go for a swim in all the lols to come.



Surprise is portrayed via exclamation marks consistently throughout the entire story. I mean, like in every single damn instance. If you look at the panel, you'll notice that there aren't any appearing above Minato's head. I don't know what you believe a "wtf expression" looks like, but that certainly isn't it. 

Minato was collected. He had to have been, otherwise there wouldn't have been time to flick a knife above A's head after getting back on-guard if we operate under the conclusion that he wasn't when A was but a hair from his face.



> It was in the context of responding to Pain's sentiment about Konoha's ability to keep protecting Naruto. I fail to see how it would support your point, because your point was that she wouldn't say anything if she wasn't certain she was correct; there's no way she could have been certain of what she told Pain and yet that apparently didn't stop her from saying it.



The reason that I believe such a thing is that speaking out when uncertain can lead to false statements. Tsunade's statement here is an example of that.

Tsuande may have agreed that A is faster than Gai. I simply don't give a shit, because she is not qualified to judge speeds her eyes cannot follow. 



> ...then she should be able to notice when Ay reappears after disappearing. He's not going _*so*_ fast that she can't even realize how quickly he's moved.



What do you mean...? When A stops moving at flicker speeds, her eyes are capable of seeing him, yes. That should be obvious though. 

When bullets stop moving at supersonic speeds, I can see them too. That doesn't mean I can tell the difference between a Mach 3 bullet and a Mach 5 one.



> Because 8th Gated Gai did not exist yet, and it kills him. Same reason we have Hiruzen saying nobody in the village could stand up to Orochimaru despite 8th Gate > Hokage being established back in the Chūnin Exam Prelims, Choza not bringing it up when Dan said nobody could beat Madara besides Hashirama, and even Kakashi telling Gai he couldn't use it because he would die when they were confronted with the 5 Bijūdama (that last one just seems silly if they were gonna die anyway, but…it's there).



8th Gate Gai did exist. 

We as readers were not introduced to the form until later, but Tsunade being Hokage would have been aware of Gai's ability to use it. 

An explanation for Hiruzen's statement is possibly because Gai wasn't capable of entering the final gate way back in the Suna Invasion Arc. Dan was just factually wrong. There are multiple characters in the story that could have beaten Madara other than Hashirama, such as the Sage of Six Paths. He was likely uninformed. Kakashi's was just idiotic when you look at the fact that five mountain busters were about to kill the both of them.



> They don't have to be non-factors for Naruto to be worried about their safety. I mean it only takes one strong Shinra Tensei to cripple them, possibly even at the same time since they tend to attack together _(4)_, almost like Choji and Choza, or the Gama Trio.



Base Naruto was swallowing up those Shinra Tensei, and Gai & Lee are far more physically beastly than he...


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2015)

7 Gate Gai has one speed feats that puts him above anyone in this list - he was capable of competing with Juubidara, who can speedblitz anyone in this list. 

7 Gate Gai speedblitz anyone in this list, including Nagato, who will be demolished before he can use any of his Rinnegan tools.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@trollwander ok 
*I would like to point out that gates gives gai absolutely no added durability *

while generally no one can claim 7th gate gai can kill Ei with a single punch bar hirudora 

Ei can basically kill gai with any of his attacks, which have u know, ripped though hachibi horn, punched a hole in jugo, sent jugo flying, cracked susanoo rib cage

killer bee needed partial transformation to stop Ei fist, naruto said he would die if he took a clean hit  

all of these things are more durable than gai. who basically bleeds when shouten kisame punched him. 

if Ei hits gai once he could die. 

even if we want to claim gai is faster based on something Ei never failed to do. he wasnt there. 

gai certainly has nothing at all to suggest he wont get a massive hole in him if Ei punches him once. which isnt impossible. the only thing Ei has to worry about is his hirudora


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2015)

> @trollwander ok
> I would like to point out that gates gives gai absolutely no added durability



Which wont prevent Gai from blitzing each gauntlet round, because he is much faster than anyone in the list.



> while generally no one can claim 7th gate gai can kill Ei with a single punch bar hirudora



Yeah, thats exactly how he beats Ei - with Hirudora to his head. He might not kill him, but he definetely knocks him out with it.



> Ei can basically kill gai with any of his attacks, which have u know, ripped though hachibi horn, punched a hole in jugo, sent jugo flying, cracked susanoo rib cage



The thing is - 7 Gate Gai can easily dodge any of Ei's attacks. Because he is a lot faster than Ei.

7 Gate Gai was keeping up with Juubidara, who is faster than Juubito, who could easily react to both EMS Sasuke and BSM Naruto at the same time and dodge their attacks. And he wasnt just keeping up with Juubidara - he surprised him with his speed and with Hirudora.

That feat puts him high above Ei in speed department. He is too fast for Ei. He speedblitz Ei.



> killer bee needed partial transformation to stop Ei fist, naruto said he would die if he took a clean hit



7 Gate Gai wont take any hit from Ei - he can dodge Ei effortlessly and speedblitz him with Hirudora.



> all of these things are more durable than gai. who basically bleeds when shouten kisame punched him.



*Ei wont land a single hit on 7 Gate Gai.*



> if Ei hits gai once he could die.



7 Gate Gai easily evades Ei.

And if Gai hits Ei once with Hirudora - Ei loses.



> even if we want to claim gai is faster based on something Ei never failed to do. he wasnt there.



7 Gate Gai is faster than Ei because he could compete with someone who is faster than Juubito, who trolled both BSM Naruto and EMS Sasuke at the same time. Should i remind you how much faster is BSM Naruto compare to Ei?

And remember - *feats rules these debates.*



> gai certainly has nothing at all to suggest he wont get a massive hole in him if Ei punches him once. which isnt impossible. the only thing Ei has to worry about is his hirudora



He wont get a massive hole in him because he evades Ei's attacks effortlessly. 



> which isnt impossible



It is impossible, since V2 Ei is like a slow mo for 7 Gate Gai. Feats proves that. 



> the only thing Ei has to worry about is his hirudora



7 Gate Gai speedblitz Ei with Hirudora. And after that, Ei wont worry about anything. Because he will be knocked out.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 12, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @trollwander ok







> *I would like to point out that gates gives gai absolutely no added durability *



 Durability aint' needed doe.



> while generally no one can claim 7th gate gai can kill Ei with a single punch bar hirudora



 Considering Juubidara was struggling to evade an onslaught of 7th Gate Gai's attacks, 7th Gate Gai can easily land multiple punches and kicks, and one kick to the head will cause Ei's neck to snap.



> Ei can basically kill gai with any of his attacks, which have u know, ripped though hachibi horn, punched a hole in jugo, sent jugo flying, cracked susanoo rib cage



 You don't think 7th Gate Gai with superior momentum can't do all of these things? Ei was unable to do anything against Madara's Susano'o without Onoki's help. Ripping through Hachibi's horn is fairly impressive if you provide a scan of that, but it's not like Ei's landing a hit.



> killer bee needed partial transformation to stop Ei fist, naruto said he would die if he took a clean hit



 Except KCM Naruto has the reactions to block and dodge V2 Ei, the former which is inferior to 7th Gate Gai and even Base Gai's reflexes in CQC. Killer Bee needing only partial transformations to stop Ei and not even dying from V2 Ei does Ei no justice here. Especially when 7th Gate Gai will have superior strength and momentum that will allow him to overpower V2 Raikage.



> all of these things are more durable than gai. who basically bleeds when shouten kisame punched him.



 That was Base Gai and wasn't even War Arc Gaii. 7th Gate Gai is much much stronger than Base Gai.



> if Ei hits gai once he could die.



 Ei will be unable to land a hit, so that point's meaningless. From a mid-range, 7th Gate Gai also has Hirudora which V2 Ei isn't evading and we know V3 Susano'o from Madara was unable to strike the Hachibi in time, just to prove that 7th Gate Gai wins even if he can't blitz.



> even if we want to claim gai is faster based on something Ei never failed to do. he wasnt there.
> 
> gai certainly has nothing at all to suggest he wont get a massive hole in him if Ei punches him once. which isnt impossible. the only thing Ei has to worry about is his hirudora



 You're right. Ei was busy being manhandled by a weaker Madara, the same Madara who he admitted that he needed more speed in order to even fight Madara.

 And Ei wouldn't? One flying Dynamic entry followed by a series of punches and kicks will severely cripple Ei to the point where he won't be able to fight. 7th Gate Gai basically kicks one of V2 Ei's strikes right through his own heart just because he has superior reactions to SM Naruto that will allow him to do so.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Durability aint' needed doe.



if he gets punched he will need it. he is going to get hit


> Considering Juubidara was struggling to evade an onslaught of 7th Gate Gai's attacks, 7th Gate Gai can easily land multiple punches and kicks, and one kick to the head will cause Ei's neck to snap.



yet he blocked gai faster than any other punch right. and was able to defend himself against 8th gate gai who is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faster than 7th gate. u know 

feats of this please. this super kick of gai which has never been shown. ill wait




> You don't think 7th Gate Gai with superior momentum can't do all of these things? Ei was unable to do anything against Madara's Susano'o without Onoki's help. Ripping through Hachibi's horn is fairly impressive if you provide a scan of that, but it's not like Ei's landing a hit.



he hasnt shown it. thats why. it was never implied or even assumed he can. thats ur fanfic 



> Except KCM Naruto has the reactions to block and dodge V2 Ei, the former which is inferior to 7th Gate Gai and even Base Gai's reflexes in CQC. Killer Bee needing only partial transformations to stop Ei and not even dying from V2 Ei does Ei no justice here. Especially when 7th Gate Gai will have superior strength and momentum that will allow him to overpower V2 Raikage.



KCM naruto wasnt moving at full speed. for fucks sake. seriously base gai reflexes are very far from KCM. all gai did was counter obito cqc skills. u know since obito foolishly feels the need to grab u before kamui. kakashi trolled obito in taijutsu. obito is useless in that department 
strength feats of gai please. go on ill wait. 

in 6th gate he punched shouten kisame dozens of times. no holes or anything 



> That was Base Gai and wasn't even War Arc Gaii. 7th Gate Gai is much much stronger than Base Gai.



base gai has no strength feats at all. has nothign to imply he is even on Ei level. never stated. 1 manga panel please which emphaizes on gai super human strength. the only one i can think of is shouten kisame overpowering him and gai saying "kisame has super human strength"



> Ei will be unable to land a hit, so that point's meaningless. From a mid-range, 7th Gate Gai also has Hirudora which V2 Ei isn't evading and we know V3 Susano'o from Madara was unable to strike the Hachibi in time, just to prove that 7th Gate Gai wins even if he can't blitz.



lol gai must hirudora. Ei can use any hit to drop gai. again no panel evidence u can provide shows gai is more durable to CS2 jugo or rib cage susanoo or hachibi horn. The DB never states gates increases his durability 




> You're right. Ei was busy being manhandled by a weaker Madara, the same Madara who he admitted that he needed more speed in order to even fight Madara.



the same madara who coudl camp in susanoo. juudara didnt camp . being able to move from point A to point B quicker doesnt at all mean u can win. or minato would be >>>>>>hashirama




> And Ei wouldn't? One flying Dynamic entry followed by a series of punches and kicks will severely cripple Ei to the point where he won't be able to fight. 7th Gate Gai basically kicks one of V2 Ei's strikes right through his own heart just because he has superior reactions to SM Naruto that will allow him to do so.


[/QUOTE]

lol again dynamic entry with no feats to say it can harm Ei. considering Db says raiton chakra mode enhances his defense 

lol severely cripple Ei. please feats go on ill wait. however i can certainly provide panels of Ei hitting people and putting holes in them, or breaking rib cage susanoo. or KCM naruto saying he could die from a punch 

lol the wank is true. please do show me any at all any please just one. single panel of gai being physically strong enough to kick Ei to the point it hurts Ei or cripples him.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> There is a rather _large_ difference between Chunin Naruto's fast and v2 A's fast. Tsunade was aware that Kurama's chakra enhanced Naruto's speed, but she didn't know that he had ascended into the upper echelon of speedsters that A was sitting at.



I know there is, but I tend to give intelligent characters the benefit of the doubt when it comes to putting two and two together. There is also a rather _large_ difference between simply releasing a lot of Chakra and showing an advanced amount of control over it, hence the "you finally did it" in Tsunade's head (there's no finally if it's just the same thing he did before) and "this Chakra is amazing" from the same slug that was there in the front row for the entire Kn6-8 experience.

The random release enabled Naruto to surpass the guy that Lee admitted was stronger than him at the time despite the fact that he had 5 gates then. So if only 2 more gates can supposedly put somebody high enough into the upper echelon of speedsters and there is an obvious big difference between a quick expulsion of power at the exams and KCM, why would Tsunade _not_ expect that Naruto, too, reach the upper echelon of speedsters? Why should she have thought he would still be _exponentially_ below Raikage?



> Tsunade likely knew that A was one of the quickest shinobi in existence, and the boost Naruto had received in the past from Kyubi forms do not compare. Tsunade can be shocked by Naruto's ability to keep pace with A and still be unaware of _precisely_ how fast A is going because Naruto's previous speed was nowhere near "fastest dude ever" tier.



_Minato_ likely knew that Ay was one of the quickest shinobi in existence; the only difference between the Raikage's reputation then and now is that Minato is no longer alive to take up top spot. Didn't stop him from being surprised at just how fast Ay really was.

The boosts from past Kyūbi forms don't need to compare because those forms don't compare to KCM. Why are you requiring _exact_ awareness, anyway? Approximates should be good enough unless you think Gai is virtually as fast as Ay is, which I don't think is necessarily true.



> Surprise is portrayed via exclamation marks consistently throughout the entire story. I mean, like in every single damn instance. If you look at the panel, you'll notice that there aren't any appearing above Minato's head..



And it seems I swim in the lols.

That's brilliantly false. Exclamations are often used to indicate surprise but expressions of surprise have never been _limited to_ instances where exclamation points are shown.

I can give you three off the top of my head from one fight alone: There was no exclamation point when Kabuto figured out how to move after being hit with Ranshinshō, even thought that obviously surprised Tsunade. There was no exclamation point when Orochimaru wrapped up Jiraiya's ankle with his tongue, but surely that still surprised Jiraiya. There was no exclamation point when Tsunade's injuries started regenerating even though Orochimaru was clearly surprised. Trying to fit an exclamation mark in that close-up of Minato's face and Ay's fist wouldn't even make sense aesthetically, but his facial expression is one of shock, so it's just another one of those examples where the exclamation mark simply isn't there- it shouldn't need to be there.

Minato being able to flick that kunai doesn't mean he wasn't surprised, it just means he was able to react in spite of being surprised; same principle as Kabuto noticing and blocking Shizune's surprise needles even with his reaction speed still slowed, it's just more of a feat for him, and I don't see why that'd have taken too much time considering that it isn't as though Minato has to enter a ready stance first in order to flick a kunai or anything.



> The reason that I believe such a thing is that speaking out when uncertain can lead to false statements. Tsunade's statement here is an example of that.



That's you, though. We're not talking about you would do or what I would do, we're talking about what _Tsunade_ could be expected to do. If Tsunade isn't afraid to make statements without certainty then you brought up the "she may not have said anything if she wasn't positive" argument for literally no reason.



> Tsuande may have agreed that A is faster than Gai. I simply don't give a shit, because she is not qualified to judge speeds her eyes cannot follow.



In that case why did you even bother starting with me?



> What do you mean...? When A stops moving at flicker speeds, her eyes are capable of seeing him, yes.



?

Ay didn't stop moving at those speeds before Madara's guard went up.

The reason I pointed out Madara's guard is because it went up faster than a speeding Ay connected with him from a few inches away. Tsunade apparently saw said guard get set up in time to make sure her kick went below it. She should at least be able to tell how fast Ay can get somewhere- not every single step needs to be caught in order to recognize that much.

I again point out that Ay said Naruto was the second person to _dodge_, not simply _see_, his full super speed. Sasuke probably reacted to Raikage darting off to the side of Amaterasu because he turned his head to watch him go, he only lost track because Raikage can run in a circle faster than Sasuke can keep turning his head/body around (and who says that if Tsunade saw his speed he went in a circle around her instead of in a straight line?); Ohnoki casted a weighted-rock Jutsu on a lightened Ay while he was moving so that he delivered a heavier hit to Madara's Susano'o.

The one who looks like a flash at full speed is _Naruto_, not Ay.



> 8th Gate Gai did exist.
> 
> We as readers were not introduced to the form until later, but Tsunade being Hokage would have been aware of Gai's ability to use it.



No he didn't. 8th Gated Gai _cannot_ exist before Gai has actually used the 8th Gate. That would make about as much sense as you saying that I existed before conception. Consider that Kakashi knew Gai could open the 8th Gate beforehand and yet he never admitted that Gai was stronger than he was until _after_ Gai _actually opened that Gate_. We as the readers knew as much as any of the characters talking about it did before it was shown to us, because nobody was there when Dai opened it, and most of them weren't born back when Madara last saw somebody use the 8th Gate.

Gai has _known how_ to open the last Gate since that _Genin_ Dai taught him when he was a kid, he just hadn't back then, but then he hadn't at the beginning of the war either. I wasn't talking about Dan, I was talking about _Choza_, who actually knows who Gai is, and how he didn't bring 8th Gated Gai up _in response to Dan's claim_. Kakashi's statement being idiotic for the scenario they were in doesn't detract from the point I was making by bringing it up- that in-universe characters seem to simply not even consider those types of skills, so Tsunade doesn't need to be expected to break the pattern.



> Base Naruto was swallowing up those Shinra Tensei, and Gai & Lee are far more physically beastly than he...



I think Gai and Lee would have died from having a Tailed Beast pulled out of them, and I said one _strong_ Shinra Tensei.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

no one would have included gai 8th gated speed in their statements bar kakashi in part 1 since 
obvious such an ability granting u power over any hokage would kill u 

now they cannot use that as a basis to say gai is faster. considering if anyone saw gai using it before he did in the manga. that would mean gai died. 

like i said everyone had seen gai hirudora and 7th gated speed. yet no one bar gaara decides to say he has inhuman *movement * not speed 

the movement could easily have to do with his taijutsu skill. which has nothing to do with the ability to move from point A to B. 

if 7th gate gai was that fast why on earth didnt he just blitz ET madara and kill him??  

u know since ET madara fought 7th gate gai as well as hachibi and the others


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> why would Tsunade _not_ expect that Naruto, too, reach the upper echelon of speedsters? Why should she have thought he would still be _exponentially_ below Raikage?



If your stance is that Tsunade was _expecting_ Naruto to be at A's level upon simply discovering that he had masted KCM, then why would she have been _surprised_ at all?

That doesn't make sense. The fact that she found Naruto's chakra mode to be amazing for simply matching A's initial stage of Raiton Chakra mode should tell us that she didn't expect him to be busting out v2-level flickers upon learning that he had mastered Kurama's power.



> _Minato_ likely knew that Ay was one of the quickest shinobi in existence; the only difference between the Raikage's reputation then and now is that Minato is no longer alive to take up top spot. Didn't stop him from being surprised at just how fast Ay really was.



Even if we assume that to be true, I would think Tsunade's face in reaction to A's blitz from ten meters out would resemble scan #1 rather than the latter example. 



> Why are you requiring _exact_ awareness, anyway? Approximates should be good enough unless you think Gai is virtually as fast as Ay is, which I don't think is necessarily true.



Well I do. I can't say for sure who's burst speed is faster, particularly because they haven't fought the same or comparable opponents. 



> That's you, though. We're not talking about you would do or what I would do, we're talking about what _Tsunade_ could be expected to do. If Tsunade isn't afraid to make statements without certainty then you brought up the "she may not have said anything if she wasn't positive" argument for literally no reason.



I have to concede the point that Tsunade will shout out things she is uncertain of because you've brought up examples of her doing do. It's just that when the things she believes are wrong, it reaffirms my own beliefs that characters statements aren't always _fact_ when regarding something they don't or can't possibly be sure of.



> Ay didn't stop moving at those speeds before Madara's guard went up. The reason I pointed out Madara's guard is because it went up faster than a speeding Ay connected with him from a few inches away.



Soooo, the speed at which Madara can raise his hands to his face is _higher_ than the speed at which A's fist can move an inch when vitalized by his v2 Raiton: Shunshin?

I think not. A probably canceled Shunshin upon reaching Madara and throwing a punch, likely to avoid _going with him_ into Mei's lava pool.



> Sasuke probably reacted to Raikage darting off to the side of Amaterasu because he turned his head to watch him go, he only lost track because Raikage can run in a circle faster than Sasuke can keep turning his head/body around.



Sasuke didn't turn his head until _after_ the Raikage had skidded to a stop in an attempt to avoid running into Kagutsuchi. Sasuke "reacted" to the Raikage leaving his field of vision and threw up an omnidirectional fire shield to prevent himself from being attacked.

If A's speed is above what the Mangekyou can visually follow, then Tsunade sure as hell isn't tracking him when he's using Shunshin. Her trying to compare A to Gai is like me trying to compare a bullet fired in movie I'm watching now to a bullet fired in one that I saw last week.



> that in-universe characters seem to simply not even consider those types of skills, so Tsunade doesn't need to be expected to break the pattern.



Oh, okay, I agree with this. 



> I think Gai and Lee would have died from having a Tailed Beast pulled out of them, and I said one _strong_ Shinra Tensei.



Naruto would have too. Life force and durability are different things though.

A strong Shinra Tensei would have crippled Naruto as well btw. It was definitely an idiotic move to attempt and shoulder everything himself. He was just incredibly lucky it worked out in the end.


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## LostSelf (Mar 12, 2015)

I still find weird and definitely out of place that, in a world war with the invincible Madara, where they had to keep Naruto safe or let them go, in a serious moment, that Tsunade interrupts Ei.

Ei: I am the fastest man alive.
Tsunade: Hey! Hold on! No, you're not. There's a shinobi in Konoha called Might Guy. He is the fastest man alive.

I mean, even if she disagreed, interrupting Ei for something like this would be stupid. Now that we are being very technical here.

But even then, there's the possibility that 7th Gate has been retconned later in the war. However, Ei and Tsunade were as wrong as Katsuyu was, considering there's a man in green that could bent time and space when Ei was hyping his ass .


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## pluuuuffff (Mar 12, 2015)

> Round 1: Chiyo
> Round 2: 3 tomoe Kakashi
> Round 3: Deidara
> Round 4: A (4th Raikage)
> ...



1,2,3,, 5 loses hard.

4 gives a good speed match, but Gai's even faster and strong with 7 gates open.

6 loses, but not that hard. Medium difficult, just because of SM reflexes.

7 loses hard, since he can't hit Jinton, and flying isn't fast enough against his speed blitz.

8 depends where Hirudora hits. Yata mirror? Susano'o himself?
Gai's too fast, he can just go to itachi's back and use Hirudora. Yata can't protect 360?.

9, I'm from the time that everyone said: "Kira A speed is just amazing. Even Minato can't kill him". And then, Kishimoto shows HOW EASY it was, for Minato, to outplay such a guy like Kira A, with is 2nd level.

So, Minato can win. His eyes are like Sharingan (really '.'), he reacts so fucking fast. And Tobirama could win here too, in my opinion.

10 - Nagato's stronger and versatile, but i've my doubts.

He has his Rinnegan Summonings, Sensor (a stronger one, no doubts, since he tracked Kabuto that was inside a barrier, got a feel about amaterasu, etc... He can use a Shinra Tensei like the one he used on the frogs, and since Gai's body i t's fragile when he has his gates open, that Shinra Tensei could damage him so much.

However... There's a chance for Gai too. Depends on the knowledge of the fight (Nagato needs to be prepared for a speed blitz), and Gai needs knowledge (for the use of the 7th gate instantly). If Nagato has knowledge, even If he opens the 7th gate, he loses. If Nagato has no knowledge, Gai (7th gate) wins.

However, with the 8th gate, Gai gets a draw, but a easy easy easy win. In that case, not even shared vision, sensor, or even a mobile body could help him, LOL


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## Thunder (Mar 12, 2015)

Yeah, I don't think Tsunade would interrupt A either. But why would casual readers of this manga assume A was lying or misinformed there? Okay, you doubt A was fastest man alive at that point for some reason. Now I ask you this: what exactly is stopping you from thinking the same about Minato? Or Tobirama? 

All three held the "fastest man alive" title at one point. So why is A's claim to fame in dispute here? 

Observe the context of Naruto vs. A. What would be the point of Naruto surpassing A in speed if A wasn't the fastest guy around? "Hey Naruto. You just outpaced A who is called the fastest man alive, but Gai is still faster. It's just a well kept secret. Sorry."

In order for the "7th Gate Gai is faster than A" argument to pan out you've got to completely ignore the statement about A's speed (something that was shoved in our faces for chapters), while downplaying Naruto's achievement to boot.

Seems a bit much just to make 7th Gate Gai faster than A. Especially when we know "final form" Gai is faster than A anyway. You'd think fans of Gai would be satisfied with that.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

@thunder i need to clap for u
would certainly rate your post. simply put. 

what would be the point of kishi saying it at that point to showcase KCM naruto if it wasnt true??

maybe he didnt know about gai 7th gate....

oh no wait gai had just used it in battle. kishi memory cant be that bad now can it


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## Mercurial (Mar 12, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yeah, I don't think Tsunade would interrupt A either. But why would casual readers of this manga assume A was lying or misinformed there? Okay, you doubt A was fastest man alive at that point for some reason. Now I ask you this: what exactly is stopping you from thinking the same about Minato? Or Tobirama?
> 
> All three held the "fastest man alive" title at one point. So why is A's claim to fame in dispute here?
> 
> ...



Then why Kishimoto decided to draw Gai as far more impressing than Ei in everything, especially in speed (without the 8th Gate)? Ei was sort of an enemy, at that point, someone who fought Naruto's father trying to kill him and was trying to stop Naruto at the cost of killing him if necessary. Naruto had to surpass him in order to survive, if he didn't get serious showcasing his full speed Ei would have killed him. Gai was an ally, the best friend of Naruto's beloved master, a close figure but not really a benchmark as he didn't have real common points with Naruto, so Naruto didn't have a reason to surpass Gai. He had to surpass Ei, on the opposite.

Kishimoto made Gaara witness Ei's speed more than once, even with Onoki's jutsu making him even faster than he normally was. Gaara was never especially impressed. Still he couldn't believe to his eyes, when he saw 7th Gate Gai dashing against Madara.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

Is this for me?



Thunder said:


> Now I ask you this: what exactly is stopping you from thinking the same about Minato? Or Tobirama?
> 
> All three held the "fastest man alive" title at one point. So why is A's claim to fame in dispute here?



Tobirama had no competition in his era that we are aware of.

Minato was stated directly by A to be superior to A. I have no reason to believe that isn't true, primarily because A is qualified to compare his own speed to another ninja's. 

A had never fought or even met Gai to our knowledge, so his statement regarding his own speed wouldn't account for 7th Gate Gai. That wouldn't make sense to me. 

That said, A _still could be correct._ I just don't know, and neither does Tsunade. That was my whole point. 



> Observe the context of Naruto vs. A. What would be the point of Naruto surpassing A in speed if A wasn't the fastest guy around?



I am 99% certain that the benchmark for Naruto was _Minato_, not A. It wasn't about surpassing A. Nobody gives a damn about A lol. It was more about Naruto matching or even surpassing his father than stealing the "fastest man" title from a side character, imo.



> In order for the "7th Gate Gai is faster than A" argument to pan out you've got to completely ignore the statement about A's speed (something that was shoved in our faces for chapters), while downplaying Naruto's achievement to boot.



I don't believe I ever claimed Gai to be _faster_ than A. I said there was no way to compare the two. I merely has an issue with FR taking Tsunade's unwillingness to correct A had he been wrong as some sort of confirmation that the Raikage's statement is fact.


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## Thunder (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky, none of what I wrote was a response to you just so you know. I would have just quoted you if that were the case. I'm not even following your back and forth with FlamingRain. So I'll respond to what's relevant. 



> I am 99% certain that the benchmark for Naruto was _Minato_, not A.  It wasn't about surpassing A. Nobody gives a damn about A lol. It was  more about Naruto matching or even surpassing his father than stealing  the "fastest man" title from a side character, imo.


The author gives a damn about A's _speed_. To suggest otherwise is just a flat out lie. If you don't give a damn about A as a _character_, that's fine. That's not what this is about.

A character can have multiple benchmarks. Every single opponent Naruto has faced can be considered a "benchmark" to some degree as they all helped Naruto improve. Depends on how loosely you define the term.

But I never said anything about benchmarks in first place. _You_ did. I only said Naruto surpassing A in speed was an important moment. Which is why several chapters were dedicated to that event.


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## LostSelf (Mar 12, 2015)

I guess it was directed to me. I have no problems saying Ei was faster than Gai in the 7th. In fact, i've been saying that Ei in V2 is faster than Gai in the 7th _until_ Gai showcased great speed enough to surprise a being far superior than the one Ei fought and didn't seem to be bothered by his speed. Both guys that Madara didn't know at first, Gaara's comment and Gai outrunning Madara's black balls, that were too fast for double Kamui, in lesser gates.

Therefore, if Gai was retconned later on, then my point is that _story-wise_ and _unless_ Gai gained more speed in the war, story wise, then Ei might've been wrong.

As there would be now more than one 'excuse' aside from feats to assume Ei was wrong. It's not the first time that Kishi says something out of logic in order to hype Naruto.

Katsuyu said team Gai, who probably had 8th gate available and the trigger to use it (Lee there), to only get in Naruto's way against a tired Deva Path.

The Tsunade interrupting Ei was said mostly for comical purposes. The reason i wouldn't think so easy that Ei's faster is because of the feats Gai displayed in the war, war that happened when Ei hyped himself. And i used the 8th gate as an example as to why Ei was really never the fastest man alive as a start of rebutting his words.


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## Icegaze (Mar 12, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Then why Kishimoto decided to draw Gai as far more impressing than Ei in everything, especially in speed (without the 8th Gate)? Ei was sort of an enemy, at that point, someone who fought Naruto's father trying to kill him and was trying to stop Naruto at the cost of killing him if necessary. Naruto had to surpass him in order to survive, if he didn't get serious showcasing his full speed Ei would have killed him. Gai was an ally, the best friend of Naruto's beloved master, a close figure but not really a benchmark as he didn't have real common points with Naruto, so Naruto didn't have a reason to surpass Gai. He had to surpass Ei, on the opposite.
> 
> Kishimoto made Gaara witness Ei's speed more than once, even with Onoki's jutsu making him even faster than he normally was. Gaara was never especially impressed. Still he couldn't believe to his eyes, when he saw 7th Gate Gai dashing against Madara.



gaara was impressed with gai movement not speed. 
he said inhuman movement and right after he said that we seen panels of gai attempting to hit juudara
kishi didnt draw gai as far more impressive

gai faced juudara Ei did not. 

i guess using ur logic killer bee speed is far more impressive than Ei since killer bee was able to shunshin to a mountain in a panel and Ei never did that. 

gai did not blitz or come close to blitzing juudara. unless gai fastest punch is somehow slower than his actual movement. which would make gai a liar wouldnt it

its odd how u people come to conclusions on something using 1 panel. i have never gotten that. 

kishi also had multiple opportunties noteable gaara as you mentioned to say that gai is faster than Ei. why didnt gaara make that comment 

i guess gai is also faster than minato and kakashi kamui...ooops hit a spot there. 

you know since gaara never commented on kakashi kamui speed or minato speed


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

Thunder said:


> The author gives a damn about A's _speed_. To suggest otherwise is just a flat out lie. If you don't give a damn about A as a _character_, that's fine. That's not what this is about.



A is one of my favorite characters. However, Naruto outpacing A was only an important moment because Minato had previously done it.



> A character can have multiple benchmarks. Every single opponent Naruto has faced can be considered a "benchmark" to some degree as they all helped Naruto improve. Depends on how loosely you define the term.





Yes, and Minato, Naruto's father, is far more important as a benchmark for Naruto than the Raikage.



> But I never said anything about benchmarks in first place. _You_ did. I only said Naruto surpassing A in speed was an important moment. Which is why several chapters were dedicated to that event.



Several chapters dedicated to it? 

Of the four chapters that Naruto & A were together, roughly one chapter's worth of pages were "dedicated" to actual interactions between them, and most of the time they were talking about Minato. The other pages comprised of A and B's relationship and the Minato flashback. 

"Surpassing A" was B's shtick. Naruto surpassing A was important _because of Minato._ A's speed relative to anyone else at the time is irrelevant because it was clear that all Kishimoto was doing was having Naruto _mimic_ Minato's past feat. I mean, the scans are literally drawn so that the two scenes look the same...


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## Thunder (Mar 12, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I guess it was directed to me. I have no problems saying Ei was faster than Gai in the 7th. In fact, i've been saying that Ei in V2 is faster than Gai in the 7th _until_ Gai showcased great speed enough to surprise a being far superior than the one Ei fought and didn't seem to be bothered by his speed. Both guys that Madara didn't know at first, Gaara's comment and Gai outrunning Madara's black balls, that were too fast for double Kamui, in lesser gates.
> 
> Therefore, if Gai was retconned later on, then my point is that _story-wise_ and _unless_ Gai gained more speed in the war, story wise, then Ei might've been wrong.
> 
> ...



The first sentence was a response to you, LostSelf. I agreed with you on one point: I think it would out of place for Tsunade to suddenly yell "Shut up A my man Gai is faster!". As it would ruin the mood. 

The rest was just my take on the matter. Not a response to anyone in particular. I guess I should've been more clear on that since I confused a few people already. 

To be honest I'm not really following this thread man. I did read some of Rocky vs. FlamingRain though, since I always learn something new about manga from those two. 

If you added anything groundbreaking to the discussion, I'm afraid I missed it. Got buried in walls of text.


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## Thunder (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A is one of my favorite characters. However, Naruto outpacing A was only an important moment because Minato had previously done it.



That doesn't take away from the fact that Naruto surpassed a guy who was called the fastest man alive, does it? 

I don't see what the contention is here. 



> Yes, and Minato, Naruto's father, is far more important as a benchmark for Naruto than the Raikage.


Never disputed that. 



> Several chapters dedicated to it?
> 
> Of the four chapters that Naruto & A were together, roughly one chapter's worth of pages were "dedicated" to actual interactions between them, and most of the time they were talking about Minato. The other pages comprised of A and B's relationship and the Minato flashback.


Again, I'm not seeing what we're arguing here. It doesn't make sense to say A wasn't important there because he was the guy who tested Naruto. The guy who stood in his way, the leader of the shinobi alliance. If Naruto didn't get past A certain key events in story would have never occurred, right? How is that not an important moment in the War Arc? 

Naruto and Bee proved their worthiness to fight alongside the other shinobi to the commander of the alliance. That's a big deal. 



> "Surpassing A" was B's shtick. Naruto surpassing A was important _because of Minato._ A's speed relative to anyone else at the time is irrelevant because it was clear that all Kishimoto was doing was having Naruto _mimic_ Minato's past feat. I mean, the scans are literally drawn so that the two scenes look the same...


It was both. Bee overpowered A in their Lariat battle, Naruto out sped A in their Shunshin battle. Those are two most important attributes to A: strength and speed.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

I was originally arguing your claim that A not being the fastest would take away from Naruto's accomplishment. That feat was important because Naruto had finally reached Minato's level. A didn't have to be the fastest guy. He just had to be as fast as he was when he fought Minato so Naruto could perform just as well as Minato did.

Think about it: Was Jiraiya the best Sage when Naruto surpassed him in senjutsu? No, but it was still a big deal, because Jiraiya was a major benchmark for Naruto. The Raikage scene was a big deal because Naruto matched the Yellow Flash. A and Gai having around the same speed doesn't take away from Naruto matching his father.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 12, 2015)

Thunder said:


> Yeah, I don't think Tsunade would interrupt A either. But why would casual readers of this manga assume A was lying or misinformed there? Okay, you doubt A was fastest man alive at that point for some reason. Now I ask you this: what exactly is stopping you from thinking the same about Minato? Or Tobirama?



 I don't see why Minato and Tobirama would be considered the fastest men alive. I never once believed that to be true and there are so many feats that contradicts that notion IMO. Minato and Tobirama are only considered to be the fastest men alive due to Hiraishin, that's pretty much it. It was made clear during Minato's fight against an inferior Young Ei that Minato needed Hiraishin to even tango with Ei.

 But yes, Ei was obviously misinformed and based his claim around the people he's faced. Since Minato himself was hyped up to be the fastest man out there, wouldn't it make sense that if you can tango with the fastest man out there that you yourself would be approximately as fast as "the fastest man alive?" It seems logical.

 Though Kishimoto likely didn't give it that much thought and only hyped up Ei just to convince the readers that he is indeed really fast.



> All three held the "fastest man alive" title at one point. So why is A's claim to fame in dispute here?



 Because Ei's claims were based on fighting the fastest man alive, the same guy who nearly lost to a Young Obito who lacks any sort of speed and reflexes that he had in the War Arc. It's embarrassing considering Base Gai's performance was better in the fact that Obito's strikes were never implied to be too quick for Gai while Young Obito's was too quick for Minato's.



> Observe the context of Naruto vs. A. What would be the point of Naruto surpassing A in speed if A wasn't the fastest guy around? "Hey Naruto. You just outpaced A who is called the fastest man alive, but Gai is still faster. It's just a well kept secret. Sorry."



 It was simply to compare KCM Naruto to the "Yellow Flash" and showcase Naruto's growth as a Jinchuuriki.



> In order for the "7th Gate Gai is faster than A" argument to pan out you've got to completely ignore the statement about A's speed (something that was shoved in our faces for chapters), while downplaying Naruto's achievement to boot.



 Really? Juubidara's shocked expression when 7th Gate Gai surpassed his expectations wasn't shoved in our faces either? Feats >> Statements as Statements can always be contradicted, feats cannot.



> Seems a bit much just to make 7th Gate Gai faster than A. Especially when we know "final form" Gai is faster than A anyway. You'd think fans of Gai would be satisfied with that.



 Do you think KCM Naruto and Ei can tango with Juubidara the same way 7th Gate Gai did?


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## Thunder (Mar 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I was originally arguing your claim that A not being the fastest would take away from Naruto's accomplishment. That feat was important because Naruto had finally reached Minato's level. A didn't have to be the fastest guy. He just had to be as fast as he was when he fought Minato so Naruto could perform just as well as Minato did.



A did have to be the fastest guy because how do we accurately measure speed in this manga? With transitive logic. We were _told_ A was the fastest guy (confirmation) and then we were _shown_ that Naruto surpassed him. Naruto is now the undisputed fastest man alive. 

That's where Minato comes in: Naruto achieved the same status as is father. Fastest man alive. 



> Think about it: Was Jiraiya the best Sage when Naruto surpassed him in senjutsu? No, but it was still a big deal, because Jiraiya was a major benchmark for Naruto. The Raikage scene was a big deal because Naruto matched the Yellow Flash. A and Gai having around the same speed doesn't take away from Naruto matching his father.


Not the same situation as explained above. Jiraiya was never called the _best_ Sage. We knew he was an imperfect Sage from the beginning. However, Jiraiya was the was _best_ _Sage benchmark_ for Naruto since he was the only Sage active in the story. Naruto took Sage Mode to a higher level than his master was able to achieve. 

Whereas, A _was_ the best speed benchmark for Naruto because he _was_ the fastest according to Kishimoto. 

The only ones disputing this fact are the readers. I'm simply taking the author's word over yours.


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## Rocky (Mar 12, 2015)

Thunder said:


> A did have to be the fastest guy because how do we accurately measure speed in this manga? With transitive logic. We were _told_ A was the fastest guy (confirmation) and then we were _shown_ that Naruto surpassed him.



I've said it once and I'll say it again; character statements are not fact when the character's knowledge of what he is claiming to be true is shoddy.  



> Naruto is now the undisputed fastest man alive.
> 
> That's where Minato comes in: Naruto achieved the same status as is father. Fastest man alive.



Naruto was never called that. 

The point of that scene wasn't for Naruto to hold the title "fastest man alive." It was for him to reach Minato's level. I do personally believe that Naruto _was_ the fastest man at that point in the story, but you've yet to convince how someone possibly being faster would undermine the importance of the scene. 

If Gai were hypothetically faster than Minato, A, and Naruto, the scene would have still been important because Naruto is finally reaching his father's level regardless of Gai.



> Not the same situation as explained above. Jiraiya was never called the _best_ Sage. We knew he was an imperfect Sage from the beginning. However, Jiraiya was the was _best_ _Sage benchmark_ for Naruto since he was the only Sage active in the story. Naruto took Sage Mode to a higher level than his master was able to achieve.



That's my point... 

Jiraiya didn't have to be the best Sage for him to be an _important _benchmark. So why does A have to be the fastest man for him to be a speed benchmark? If the goal is to reach Minato, why does it matter how A compares to Gai if we know how A compares to Minato?



> Whereas, A _was_ the best speed benchmark for Naruto because he _was_ the fastest according to Kishimoto.



You mean according to A, right? 



> The only ones disputing this fact are the readers. I'm simply taking the author's word over yours.



The author did not speak on this matter.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

When Ay made his statement of being the fastest ninja alive, I'm pretty sure he knew about Gai and his gates.

I mean not only did he have knowledge of Kakashis techniques: at the level of Bee's base strength

But he even could distinguish the difference between the 3 tomoe and the Mangeyko Sharingan: at the level of Bee's base strength

People can sit here and claim that Gai is faster because Ay wouldn't fully know the extent of Gais abilities, but then again Kishi is the author who chose to write down that dialogue for Ay. Why the hell would he have him say he's the the fastest Shinobi alive and then have Gai laying around ? Was he just wasting his time with that statement for shits and giggles. He easily could have had Ay as " extremely fast " or " one of the fastest " if that's exactly what he wanted Ay to be. 

This whole 8th gate Gai argument is annoying as hell too. You can't consider the 8th gate as a variable because Gai dies when he uses it ? If he needs the 8th gate to supersede Ays speed, then he would supersede his speed for 6 minutes and then die after giving the title right back to Ay . Not only this, but Gai didn't know the extent of the technique. He really didn't know how fast he would have been... The Red aura gate isn't for practical use and isn't in Gais Regular arsenal therefore it shouldn't qualify Gai to be faster than Ay.

Gais  7th gated feats against juubidara were clearly retconned and straight up plot bullshit anyway . Same way rock less throwing feats, base Minato's reactions, Gaara's sand speed, and Kakashis Kamui are > to the red aura gate. I mean that's funny as hell.


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> When Ay made his statement of being the fastest ninja alive, I'm pretty sure he knew about Gai and his gates.
> 
> I mean not only did he have knowledge of Kakashis techniques: at the level of Bee's base strength
> 
> But he even could distinguish the difference between the 3 tomoe and the Mangeyko Sharingan: at the level of Bee's base strength



It's possible, but nothing more than speculation. He may be familiar with the Gates in general, and maybe even that Gai uses them, but I doubt he's familiar with how quick 7th Gate Gai is.

Gai is less famous than the Copy Ninja and the legendary Mangekyou anyway.



> Why the hell would he have him say he's the the fastest Shinobi alive and then have Gai laying around ?



So you think characters are never wrong or misinformed?


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

I mean he is a Raikage, I would expect him to have knowledge of a threat as dangerous as Gai. Especially if he knows not only of Kakashi, but of his specific techniques.

Maybe I'm mistaken,  but when did the MS become famous? I thought it was only something few know about considering only a  handful have actually awakened it. Nevertheless being able to perfectly distinguish between the 3 tomoe and MS? If he knows that, he is bound to Atleast have knowledge on gates. He also doesn't have to know how fast Gai is , but rather know how big the 7th gate boost is.

I have never seen a character make a statement that outright bold/generalized and be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong that is.


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I mean he is a Raikage, I would expect him to have knowledge of a threat as dangerous as Gai. Especially if he knows not only of Kakashi, but of his specific techniques.



Knowledge that someone exists and can use certain techniques is different than viewing them first hand when it comes to something like burst speed.

Oh, and how is Gai a_ threat?_ Were they at war?



> Maybe I'm mistaken,  but when did the MS become famous? I thought it was only something few know about considering only a  handful have actually awakened it.



It was Madara's dojutsu, and anybody who's anybody seemed to be familiar with his power. Also, wasn't the Raikage and his team briefed on Sasuke's abilities? I mean, he seemed to know that Amaterasu was coming.



> I have never seen a character make a statement that outright bold/generalized and be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong that is.





Examples are everywhere thanks to the arrogant minds in the manga. Edo Madara's "nobody can stop me but Hashirama" comes to mind as an incorrect statement. The majority of the Part 1 statements regarding the Sannin are other examples.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Knowledge that someone exists and can use certain techniques is different than viewing them first hand when it comes to something like burst speed.
> 
> Oh, and how is Gai a_ threat?_ Were they at war?
> 
> ...



By the time Ay had made the statement that he was the fastest ninja alive he had been promoted to the commander of the Shinobi alliance. He definitely has a great deal of information on Gai, especially considering he had knowledge on Kakashi back when Kumo and Leaf didn't get along. And someone in leaf( Tsuande, apparently Yamato, Kakashi, and definitely team Gai as a whole) was able to gather information of just how fast Gai is to give to Tsuande and Ay as that's very important in the face of a World War.

How was Gai a threat ? In case you forgot, Leaf and Kumo were not the closest villages. Gai as easily top 5 in the leaf is definitely a potential threat and having knowledge on him wouldn't hurt. 

I swore Madara was known for his proficiency with the sharingan, his legends chakra reserves, taming Kurama and rivaling Hashirama. I don't remember anything about his MS being famous or..? As far as I recall the MS wasn't confirmed until Kakashi started busting out Kamui and Itachi was battling Hebi Sasuke( unless it was stated during Itachi/Kisame vs Jounin , and the Jirayia skirmish and I skimmed over it).  Even if it as shown early on, only select few even knew about its abilities. Mostly only the users.

I don't remember Raikage being briefed about his abilities. You have a panel for this? Though they clearly has knowledge on amaterasu( probably through the watching Kumo ninja at Sasuke vs bee?) but not enough to validate the difference between MS and 3 tomoe or to even know the MS existed. And as far as I'm concerned, Ay skidded to a stop after Sasuke activated his flames:   at the level of Bee's base strength

I think those examples differ though. There's a difference between exaggerating and literally placing yourself as the best at something. Even if Ay had said" nobody can compare to my speed , that wouldn't be enough to validate him being the fastest. But he literally says I am the fastest ninja alive many times. And as the commander of the Shinobi alliance, he knows a lot about the alliance. It would be different if someone he didn't know was faster than him, but he knows a lot about Gai , and he made that statement after becoming the SA commander.


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## Thunder (Mar 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I have never seen a character make a statement that outright bold/generalized and be wrong. Correct me if I'm wrong that is.


Exactly. 

Statements become more or less reliable depending on the context. Just because some have been proven wrong it doesn't mean we hand wave _all _of them away. 

Especially if said statement is only bestowed upon very few characters in the entire manga. Generally, if a character is called the greatest in one category, we can safely assume _it means something_. 

Same with the databooks. Speaking of databooks, I'm pretty sure A's entry would mention something about him being the fastest shinobi. The databooks are written by Kishimoto.

A was noted to be fast by . . . everyone. Even shinobi who are outright stronger than the guy. So I will maintain that A knew what he was talking about it when he confidently labeled himself the fastest shinobi. And it's not like we're basing A's speed placement off statements alone. A's speed feats aren't lacking at all. 

If you don't agree Rocky and others who quoted me, that's fine. I'm not going to argue the point anymore. Because A being faster than Gai doesn't necessarily equate to A winning the match anyway.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

Let me also throw something out here for all the Gai wankers and I dare someone to try to refute this because it basically cannot be.

Ay is faster than Gai in movement speed for sure. He Shunshins a small distance faster than  7th gated Gai could move that small distance anyday. What Gai exceeds Ay in is CQC speed and skill.

When Gai rushed juubidara in the 7th gate, it's absolutely clear that Madara could have avoided the confrontation all together by pulling up a black shield and blocking all the damage. Instead, he decided to let Gai step up to him, and was surprised by his CQC speed and skill, NOT HIS MOVEMENT SPEED. Which Ay has him beat him in.

For clarification, the same juubidara was able to react to Red Aura Gai at a closer distance and pull up a black shield: at the level of Bee's base strength

Notice how the distance difference, you can even see the spot where Red Aura Gai jumped off of air in this panel: at the level of Bee's base strength
at the level of Bee's base strength

Now look how very far 7th gate Gai was to Madara and he rushed Madara even after basically warning him: at the level of Bee's base strength

So yeah. Madara outright reacted to a faster Gai, so this whole  7th gate Gai is physically to fast for Madara argument is dead , and should have been dead for a long ass time.


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## Rocky (Mar 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> He Shunshins a small distance faster than  7th gated Gai could move that small distance anyday. What Gai exceeds Ay in is CQC speed and skill.



Why a "small" distance?



			
				Databook said:
			
		

> If seen by an ordinary person, it would seem as if the user has teleported... In reality, the user has vitalized his body with chakra and moved at super speeds. *The amount of chakra used up differs depending on the distance and elevation of their stopping point in comparison to the starting point.*



A person can travel as far as they want as long as they have the chakra to spend. The 4th Raikage has chakra levels comparable to that of a Tailed Beast, so I cannot fathom why he of all people would have issues with maintaining body flicker speeds over larger distances.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

Ei has no issues with using a flicker at large distances
he just never did it in the manga. because no enemy he faced was that far from him

i wouldnt say anyone is trolling. i just dont get the importance placed on speed here

juudara also showed less impressive movement speed than 7th gate gai did that mean he got his ass handed to him??

hashirama less movement speed than his brother, doesnt help his brother win. 

Speed isnt all there is, i got no issues with gai being faster. but no opponent has ever been so fast the person they face cant put up a defense or at least see the attack coming. 

Ei can kill gai with a punch, gai has no feats to suggest he can do the same to Ei. bar hirudora which again looks like to took out v3 susanoo. yet left kisame a little chared. the same kisame which btw cant take more than a punch from Ei without dying if he doesnt heal 

unless one wants to start claiming kisame body is much more durable than jugo body which actually transforms the body. last i checked kisame got pierced by a kunai. jugo could block a blade with his skin with no damage


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## Jad (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Ei has no issues with using a flicker at large distances
> he just never did it in the manga. because no enemy he faced was that far from him





Alright I concede. 

I stand by my Raiton Armour point.



Icegaze said:


> fantastic post
> but for all of that Ei karate chop can actually split guy in half



Wouldn't argue it any other way.


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## Icegaze (Mar 13, 2015)

what was ur raiton armour point??? 

when did Ei struggle to shunshin a large distance jad??

i mean killer bee crossed a mountain range with that. are u saying killer bee can get from point A to B at a large distance before Ei can?? that would make killer bee faster which he isnt


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## Jad (Mar 13, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> what was ur raiton armour point???



I quoted this from my post "Take into consideration after I said all those points, that Ei loses his Raiton no Shroud when met with great force [at the level of Bee's base strength] Notice the Raiton sparks coming off Ei, almost like the armour collapsed and got beaten. Didn't think I noticed that did you?"



Icegaze said:


> when did Ei struggle to shunshin a large distance jad??
> 
> i mean killer bee crossed a mountain range with that. are u saying killer bee can get from point A to B at a large distance before Ei can?? that would make killer bee faster which he isnt



You're beating a dead horse. Look at my post. I conceded.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

> if he gets punched he will need it. he is going to get hit



No he is not. Ei has no feats to say something like that.



> yet he blocked gai faster than any other punch right. and was able to defend himself against 8th gate gai who is>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>faster than 7th gate. u know
> 
> feats of this please. this super kick of gai which has never been shown. ill wait



The fact he blocked Hirudora proves nothing at all. You have yet to prove there is super huge gap between Hirudora and his casual 7 Gate punches.

Oh, by the way, show me a panel where it is said Hirudora is his fastest attack, except 8 Gate attacks.

Also, do you remember Juubidara's face expressions? You dont care about them, dont you?

Well, it is obvious Juubidara wasnt toying with Gai at that moment. Also, i want you to explain to me why Juubidara couldnt cut Gai's hand when he used Hirudora, or when he closed a distance with Juubidara and pressured him. Why he couldnt blitz 7 Gate Gai?

8 Gate Gai wasnt in a close distance with Juubidara all the time, 7 Gate Gai *was*. And you have yet to prove there is a super-huge gap between first step EE and 7 gate Gai's hits.



> he hasnt shown it. thats why. it was never implied or even assumed he can. thats ur fanfic



7 Gate Gai has a feat with Juubidara that puts him high above Ei, *who's V2 punch was blocked easily by Edo Madara.*

*Ei being able to hit 7 Gate Gai is your fanfic, which is based on nothing at all. You cant counter my arguements, you cant bring here some realy good proofs that can back up your words. You just continue to bring here your fanfic. And you call me a trollwander? LOL.*



> KCM naruto wasnt moving at full speed. for fucks sake. seriously base gai reflexes are very far from KCM. all gai did was counter obito cqc skills. u know since obito foolishly feels the need to grab u before kamui. kakashi trolled obito in taijutsu. obito is useless in that department
> strength feats of gai please. go on ill wait.
> 
> in 6th gate he punched shouten kisame dozens of times. no holes or anything



Base Gai reflexes allowed him to engage Obito in CQC and dodge his Kamui attempts, when KCM Naruto was almost absorbed in Kamui. ANd yes, Obito needs to grab opponents to absorb them in Kamui demention.

But we are talking about 7 Gate Gai. He is many times faster than even V2 Ei and his Hirudora is powerfull enough to knock him out. 7 Gate Gai speedblitz.



> base gai has no strength feats at all. has nothign to imply he is even on Ei level. never stated. 1 manga panel please which emphaizes on gai super human strength. the only one i can think of is shouten kisame overpowering him and gai saying "kisame has super human strength"



Base Gai is quite strong, seen from his CQC battles.

But thats not important here. Because 7 Gate Gai is a lot faster than Ei and can beat him with only 1 Hirudora.



> lol gai must hirudora. Ei can use any hit to drop gai. again no panel evidence u can provide shows gai is more durable to CS2 jugo or rib cage susanoo or hachibi horn. The DB never states gates increases his durability



7 Gate Gai has speed good enough to compete with Juubidara, who is many times faster than V2 Ei, who's top speed punch was outshunshined by KCM Naruto and blocked by Edo Madara. 

7 Gate Gai is much faster than Ei. Juubidara wasnt toying with him and there are lots of evidences of that, yet you ignore them all the time. Well, its your problem. V2 Ei is literally like a slow mo for 7 Gate Gai. 

7 Gate Gai speedblitz Ei with Hirudora without any problem at all.



> the same madara who coudl camp in susanoo. juudara didnt camp . being able to move from point A to point B quicker doesnt at all mean u can win. or minato would be >>>>>>hashirama



Juubidara didnt need his Susanoo at all. He had Gudoudamas and his own durability. He was a Juubi's Jin. Why does he need his Susanoo?



> lol again dynamic entry with no feats to say it can harm Ei. considering Db says raiton chakra mode enhances his defense
> 
> lol severely cripple Ei. please feats go on ill wait. however i can certainly provide panels of Ei hitting people and putting holes in them, or breaking rib cage susanoo. or KCM naruto saying he could die from a punch
> 
> lol the wank is true. please do show me any at all any please just one. single panel of gai being physically strong enough to kick Ei to the point it hurts Ei or cripples him.



7 Gate Gai knocks Ei out by Hirudora. Gai's base feats are not needed at all.


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 13, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Let me also throw something out here for all the Gai wankers and I dare someone to try to refute this because it basically cannot be.
> 
> Ay is faster than Gai in movement speed for sure. He Shunshins a small distance faster than  7th gated Gai could move that small distance anyday. What Gai exceeds Ay in is CQC speed and skill.
> 
> ...



 Juubidara still couldn't pull himself away from 7th Gate Gai's Taijutsu meaning they are within the same speed tier. Doesn't matter if he didn't use Gedodama or not, you can't deny this.


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## StarWanderer (Mar 13, 2015)

> read the first use of hirudora. gai calls it his faster than any other punch. why argue a character when you dont even know the character jutsu.
> 
> if gai said hirudora is faster than any other punch it is. case closed. i bet next thing u would start arguing is SM jiriaya hair needles which he called his fastest attack actually isnt his fastest attack based on panels.
> 
> ...



I have a surprise for you, Icegaze. 



Now, i will ask you a quastion - do you realy think *your translation* is the right one? Maybe in your translation the translators wanted to translate that part in a way of hyperbole? 

But it doesnt matter. Because even if Hirudora is his fastest punch except 8 Gate punches, it proves nothing at all. *Because Hirudora needs a hand seal, Juubidara was unable to cut Gai's hand to prevent Hirudora and speedblitz Gai, and you havent proved there is a very huge gap between Hirudora and his base 7 Gate punches. *

Also, just look at Juubidara's face expressions. 

He was serious with Gai. It is obvious. 



> i shall highlight what he said
> 
> A SIMPLE PUNCH BUT FASTER THAN ANY OTHER
> 
> ...



I dont care about Jiraya. We are not debating about Jiraya. 

And you can insult me as much as you want. I dont care, to be honest.


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## Veracity (Mar 13, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Juubidara still couldn't pull himself away from 7th Gate Gai's Taijutsu meaning they are within the same speed tier. Doesn't matter if he didn't use Gedodama or not, you can't deny this.



Well for one, I never said 7th hated Gai wasn't super speedy in CQC( his traveling speed ain't god tier though, so he's not blizting anyone), and you also don't tend to realize that not only did Madara mor use Shunshin for all of those chapters, but he also plays around. You know how I know he was also playing around ? Because he could have trolled Gai as soon as he rushed him. Gai's 7th gated punches wouldn't have done shit to Madara, and even assuming Gai was to fast for him, Madara could have easily simply let Gai hit the shit out of him, and counterattacked. People always say Madara didnt have time to react, um no. Madara chose not to fight back, and chose to sit there and hop back and dodge/block his attacks. He didn't need to do any of that, he actually chose to.


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## SSMG (Mar 13, 2015)

There should be no debate here.

Raikage is confirmed slower than kcm naruto. He is also too slow to land hits on Edo madara and so slow that Edo madara wood clones can grab him.

Guy on the other hand is faster than kcm in base. He has landed clean hits on Edo madara and he didn't get grabbed by any weak ass wood clones. 

In all comparable feats between the two guy looks better in every single comparison. Why people still think ei is insanely  fast compared to end game characters is beyond me.


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## FlamingRain (Mar 14, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If your stance is that Tsunade was _expecting_ Naruto to be at A's level upon simply discovering that he had masted KCM, then why would she have been _surprised_ at all?



That's not my stance. 

My stance is just that she should have expected him to be incredibly fast. Since she was surprised in spite of that, my question to you is what you think the best explanation for that is.

Earlier you said _"Tsunade may know that Gai is incredibly fast in the 7th Gate, and she may also know that A is incredibly fast as well,"_, but if Tsunade's knowledge is no more specific than that vague generically "incredibly fast" hype then exactly what is it that she could have found so _amazing_ about some incredibly fast guy keeping up with another incredibly fast guy that she didn't just go "huh, okay that's that"?

You say that she wasn't expecting him to bust out V2 level body flickers but then also try to say that at the same time she didn't even know what V2 level body flickers were. How does that work? Just how does she figure that those speeds are _*so*_ high Naruto shouldn't be expected to be able to rival them in his should-be incredibly fast new form if all she knows is that they're "incredibly fast" by hearsay? There is nothing about her _not knowing what level that even is_ that could make her discriminate in her expectations as to whether or not some other expectantly incredibly fast guy would be able to keep pace with it. Why would she find such a thing astonishing, then? It makes _far_ more sense if she knew approximately _how_ fast one of them (the one she _wasn't_ surprised with, but instead was surprised the other could keep up with) was beforehand.



> Even if we assume that to be true, I would think Tsunade's face in reaction to A's blitz from ten meters out would resemble scan #1 rather than the latter example.



Alright?

He didn't have to try blitzing Tsunade in order for her to be familiar with his true speed, though. Does Tsunade knowing what Minato's complete Rasengan looks like mean he tried shoving one in her face? I don't think so.



> Well I do. I can't say for sure who's burst speed is faster, particularly because they haven't fought the same or comparable opponents.



If you can't say for sure whose burst speed is faster, and then Ay's speed gets more attention/emphasis than Gai's, would the commonsensical thing to do not be to assume that Ay is in fact faster than Gai?



> I have to concede the point that Tsunade will shout out things she is uncertain of because you've brought up examples of her doing do. It's just that when the things she believes are wrong, it reaffirms my own beliefs that characters statements aren't always _fact_ when regarding something they don't or can't possibly be sure of.



Well she was _technically_ right because Pain _didn't_ get what he wanted there. 

Even if those character statements may not themselves be fact, the fact that those characters hold those opinions can still point us in a certain direction over another. They can at least make a certain thing _more likely_.



> Soooo, the speed at which Madara can raise his hands to his face is _higher_ than the speed at which A's fist can move an inch when vitalized by his v2 Raiton: Shunshin?



Yes.

It was more like inch_es_, but…Ay was airborne, it'd be too late for "canceling" Shunshin to accomplish anything _when he's in mid-air_, would it not? It's not like he's flying. Honestly I'm not even sure that "canceling Shunshin" even makes sense after it's already been used. It seems to me more like the Chakra used is directed into an initial burst _(1)_, _(2)_, rather than something that has to be sustained as the user is crossing the distance from their starting point to the finishing line, and if that's the case then it can't really be "canceled" after it's already been used- you just get to pick whether or not to use another one once you reach your first goal.

I also think Ay just kept running on purpose once he hit Jūgo the first time. His other leg is forward in the panel where Jūgo's up against the wall, you'd _typically_ switch to the opposite leg when you swing like that. He didn't go anywhere when he elbowed him right after that, though, and he didn't after missing Minato either.



> Sasuke didn't turn his head until _after_ the Raikage had skidded to a stop in an attempt to avoid running into Kagutsuchi. Sasuke "reacted" to the Raikage leaving his field of vision and threw up an omnidirectional fire shield to prevent himself from being attacked.



I was referring to the moment _just_ before that. When Raikage first dodged Amaterasu Sasuke turned his head in the direction Raikage ran. Sasuke saw him moving while his line of sight was still facing that direction; he only lost track once Ay circled around him faster than Sasuke turned to keep watching. _Then_ he put up the Enton barrier, and the next time he turned his head it was in the other direction. It's been stated before that it's easier for the Sharingan to pick up straight paths of movement; had Raikage just run straight forwards or backwards in the room and Sasuke been standing in a spot where he could see across that entire would-be path he probably would have seen him.



> Naruto would have too. Life force and durability are different things though.
> 
> A strong Shinra Tensei would have crippled Naruto as well btw. It was definitely an idiotic move to attempt and shoulder everything himself. He was just incredibly lucky it worked out in the end.



Not instantly.

People have been shouldering everything themselves since Part 1. The idea is a common one. Itachi only warned about shouldering everything himself because he was sour about how he tried it and failed. And Naruto went into that fight with a plan; to say that it was just incredible luck seems a bit unfair.


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## Rocky (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't really have an issue with your stance at this point. I understand where you're coming from overall. However, a few points:



FlamingRain said:


> It was more like inch_es_, but?Ay was airborne, it'd be too late for "canceling" Shunshin to accomplish anything _when he's in mid-air_, would it not? It's not like he's flying. Honestly I'm not even sure that "canceling Shunshin" even makes sense after it's already been used. It seems to me more like the Chakra used is directed into an initial burst _(1)_, _(2)_, rather than something that has to be sustained as the user is crossing the distance from their starting point to the finishing line, and if that's the case then it can't really be "canceled" after it's already been used- you just get to pick whether or not to use another one once you reach your first goal.



I don't believe what Sakura used there was the body flicker. The Databook entry describes the technique at "vitalizing the body," while Sakura essentially flung herself at Ino using gathered chakra at her feet to push off, the opposite of what Tsunade was attempting to do against Pain.

A circling Sasuke wasn't just A launching himself using built-up chakra. I feel that Shunshin is something that accelerates the entire body using gathered chakra until you stop putting chakra into the technique; then you come to a complete stop The fact that Shinobi seem to control their momentum only supports that. It also makes sense with the Databook description. 



> I also think Ay just kept running on purpose once he hit Jūgo the first time. His other leg is forward in the panel where Jūgo's up against the wall, you'd _typically_ switch to the opposite leg when you swing like that. He didn't go anywhere when he elbowed him right after that, though, and he didn't after missing Minato either.



But he _did_ go somewhere after swinging at Naruto; right into a cliff. He also ran through the wall when Obito phased through his fist. 



> I was referring to the moment _just_ before that. When Raikage first dodged Amaterasu Sasuke turned his head in the direction Raikage ran. Sasuke saw him moving while his line of sight was still facing that direction; he only lost track once Ay circled around him faster than Sasuke turned to keep watching.



How are you sure that Sasuke actually saw A once he began moving at flicker speeds?


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

@narutoX28
Seal or not ur excuses or not hirudora >>>>>>everything else in speed from 7tj gate gai

Juudara trolled that by being faster therefore he wasn't struggling against gai much slower attacks 

The end /


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## FlamingRain (Mar 15, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't believe what Sakura used there was the body flicker. The Databook entry describes the technique at "vitalizing the body," while Sakura essentially flung herself at Ino using gathered chakra at her feet to push off, the opposite of what Tsunade was attempting to do against Pain.



It doesn't really make as much sense to me that it wouldn't have been. The body flicker is an academy/Genin level technique, Sakura's Chakra control at the time was already just about perfect for a rookie according to Kakashi, and he reflected on her "ability to gather Chakra from every part of the body and then use it with great timing". It's probably no mere coincidence that she made the same hand sign Hanzo did when he used Shunshin _(1)_, and that we see a similar burst off the ground effect with Naruto even here _(2)_. She was putting her all into that fight, so unless a rudimentary burst of Chakra is even more effective than a Shunshin I don't see why she'd have gone with that, and if it is I'd have to wonder why Shunshin even exists. So long as her Chakra is responsible for her enhanced movement it could be considered to be "vitalizing the body".



> I feel that Shunshin is something that accelerates the entire body using gathered chakra until you stop putting chakra into the technique; then you come to a complete stop.



If that were the case we wouldn't ever see them _skid_ to a halt?but?.we do. Their stops are no more complete than sprinters crossing the finish line.



> But he _did_ go somewhere after swinging at Naruto; right into a cliff. He also ran through the wall when Obito phased through his fist.



Naruto was only like a couple meters away from the cliff, though.

He jumped at Obito; again I don't think canceling Shunshin would have done anything there. I don't think it's like DBZ or even Bleach where you can put on the breaks in mid-air.



> How are you sure that Sasuke actually saw A once he began moving at flicker speeds?



I said "probably"?

Ay was moving at flicker speeds since the instant he dodged Amaterasu. How would Sasuke have known what direction to look in if he _didn't_ see Ay zip off that way?

By the way Ay's shroud is yellow in the manga , but the only times people comment on seeing a yellow flash are when Naruto is around, so take that how you will.


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## Icegaze (Mar 15, 2015)

sorry is there an actual discussion on when ninja use shunshin?

its an academy skill every ninja and their mother who get to an opponent face quickly enough are using shushin 

now chakra mode type shusnhin enhances reactions as well which a regular shunshin doesnt 

shunshin also has to do with chakra quantity and control. hence why Ei can blitz alot of people.


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## Rocky (Mar 15, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's probably no mere coincidence that she made the same hand sign Hanzo did when he used Shunshin _(1)_, and that we see a similar burst off the ground effect with Naruto even here _(2)_.



That seal seems to be a general seal shinobi make when gathering chakra, or doing anything. Itachi made it when "preparing to activate" Izanami. Minato is even shown making it when using Hiraishin in certain instances.  

As for the ground burst deal, no lie, I believe that is just something Kishimoto decides to add randomly to enhance the art quality. If Shunshin was just a single explosion of chakra from the feet, then in order to travel quickly or far, that explosion would have to be gigantic. Yet, not all characters break the ground when they move _fast_ or _far._



> She was putting her all into that fight, so unless a rudimentary burst of Chakra is even more effective than a Shunshin I don't see why she'd have gone with that, and if it is I'd have to wonder why Shunshin even exists. So long as her Chakra is responsible for her enhanced movement it could be considered to be "vitalizing the body".



I don't know. Maybe Sakura's launching method is more effective for people who don't have high reflexes, or maybe the technique works differently than it did in the past because the author changed his mind.

What I do know is that ninja seem to be perfectly in control of their speed during and immediately following Shunshin, and what Sakura did wouldn't allow for that.



> If that were the case we wouldn't ever see them _skid_ to a halt…but….we do. Their stops are no more complete than sprinters crossing the finish line.



We don't.

If that were true, Sasuke couldn't just _appear_ in front of Naruto without running into him. Gai couldn't just _pop up_ in front of Kisame and stay in perfect position without momentum carrying him further. There are various examples.



> Naruto was only like a couple meters away from the cliff, though.
> 
> He jumped at Obito; again I don't think canceling Shunshin would have done anything there. I don't think it's like DBZ or even Bleach where you can put on the breaks in mid-air.



The Raikage only continued on a meter or so before coming to a complete stop after missing Minato & Naruto, so I believe you can "put on the brakes." A running into the cliff and running past Minato's Kunai so that it appeared behind his shoulder would be what happened during the time frame that A kept going at flicker speeds before he turned it off.

If it had been regular momentum, we would have seen him skidding to stop himself. 



> By the way Ay's shroud is yellow in the manga , but the only times people comment on seeing a yellow flash are when Naruto is around, so take that how you will.



fuck


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