# jounin class take on the sound 4



## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2015)

who of these contenders can beat the sound 4 in a 1 vs 4 battle
We know all elite jounin: asuma, darui, kimi, kakashi, zabuza, kitsuchi, hiashi can pull this off no issues

so can these people do it as well

War arc kiba
Sasuke rescue arc gaara
War arc kankuro
war arc temari
War arc neji
haku 
war arc chouji
Vote P1 sasuke
war arc shikamaru

Location: forest
knowledge: none for everyone
distance: 20m

Can any of these contenders win. if so explain why and how

I really don't think any of them can take this besides chouji. who could still fall to tayuya genjutsu

sound 4 individual skills really do put them at the highest end of chunin class


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## Ghost (Aug 27, 2015)

1. Kiba stomps them.
2. Gaara is way stronger than any of them individually but as a group they can beat him. I would favor Gaara though.
3. Kankuro stomps.
4. Temari stomps.
5. Haku probably. I see him bringing out the mirrors quite quickly.
6. Chouji stomps.
7. Like Gaara, Sasuke is way stronger than any of them but the S4 has a chance to win.
8. Shikamaru stomps. He outsmarts them and shadows GG.

S4 can beat both Sasuke and Gaara if they are all still alive when they realize they need to use CS lvl 2.


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## Icegaze (Aug 27, 2015)

Kiba can't cut through kido webs how on earth does he stomp them ?
Explain further please 

So in short U favor gaara Cuz what exactly ? You didn't explain 

How does kankuro stomp ? Kido and tayuya fighting style would make them difficult for kankuro to reach them 

Temari stomping hmm I can see why U would think that 

Haku mirrors will get countered by jirobo Doton tech if haku doesn't target jirobo first . Also catching all 4 within his mirrors isn't at all easy to pull off. Based on how differently they fight 

Tayuya doki will also make it very easy for her to defend against haku if haku catches Her around mirros 
All 3 summons can block all angles by simply stading around 

Shikamaru stomping is a huge stretch I feel his fighting style takes too much focus . Despite him being much smarter than all of them he is again dealing with 2 tacticians who will exploit the other 2 being killed or caught to strike 

Just to put things in perspective genma and raido>>>>>shikamaru or any individual person on this thread 
Yet they couldn't beat sound 4 

Temari is the only one really due to her AoE attacks


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## thechickensage (Aug 27, 2015)

just neji wins, others all die embarrassingly.  

Actually Neji succumbs to flute genjutsu then dies.  

They all die.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 27, 2015)

90% of these aren't Jonin.



> We know all elite jounin: asuma, darui, kimi, kakashi, shizune, zabuza, kitsuchi, hiashi, can pull this off no issues



fix'd


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## Sadgoob (Aug 27, 2015)

Jonin is a huge spectrum ranging from the ten fodder Sound Jonin Asuma paneled, to kid Kakashi who was a more polished CE Sasuke, to the most famous, powerful elite Jonin in the world villages like adult Kakashi, Zabuza, Asuma, part one Kabuto, etc.

The Sound 4, even in base, are likely stronger than fodder Sound Jonin, and IMO in CS2 are stronger than kid Kakashi. Realistically they lost to some pretty broken stuff like Butterfly Mode, a forest-destroying summon, a Hyuga prodigy that was a perfect match up.

Icegaze, in your list, I'd also make a case for Choji and maybe Kankuro being low Kage level. The former was the MVP hero of a major battle in the war that included Akatsuki, and the latter had Sasori's body and used other puppets quite cunningly. 

Choji, however, is the only one I can realistically see beating the sound 4 here. Kidomaru in particular is a nightmare, since he hides and snipes through blindspots, even hitting Neji, who had virtually no blindspot along with a 4.5 taijutsu and 4 speed.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 27, 2015)

I think they're above fodder chunin but below fodder jonin.  Their specialty in sealing allows them to, in that aspect, surpass most jonin.  Which is why they're on Orochimaru's special squad.  Cursed mark amplification bumps them up to be king chunin.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 27, 2015)

They're far above fodder Chunin, like the Demon Brothers. The Sound 4 called CE Sasuke trash, and IMO CE Sasuke was a high Chunin. (He'd neg-diff Wave Sasuke + Demon Bros.)

Really, the big divide between Jonin and Chunin is speed. People like Lee, Sasuke, Neji, etc. already had low Jonin speed, and could neg-diff multiple Chunin like the Demon Brothers at once. (Like Kakashi.)

I think you overestimate fodder Jonin. CE Shikamaru managed to temporarily incapacitate ten fodder Jonin, for instance. Tayuya just turned on CS and walked right on out.

Supposedly, Jonin are well rounded, but that's certainly not always true. Kazekage Gaara has shit taijutsu, Gai isn't good at ninjutsu, Jiraiya sucks at genjutsu, etc. Speed and one specialty is enough. 

I'd say Jirobo is the only one that is high Chunin, because he's slow (although insanely durable, strong, and great ninjutsu.) The others all have the speed and unique jutsu to make them low Jonin IMO​.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 27, 2015)

Ten fodder chunin.  One fodder jonin was going to murder him, Naruto, Sakura, and Pakkun.

Jonin are generally well rounded.  There are exceptions, sure, but Lee wouldn't be working so hard to prove you can be a good one dimensional ninja if it was commonly accepted you didn't need to be well rounded to be a good jonin.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 27, 2015)

I'm sure the entire squad was said to be beyond Chunin level. Why do you remember otherwise? And Naruto was stronger than fodder Jonin at that point (CE Sasuke speed, Kage level ninjutsu.)​


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## The Undying (Aug 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I think they're above fodder chunin but below fodder jonin.  Their specialty in sealing allows them to, in that aspect, surpass most jonin.  Which is why they're on Orochimaru's special squad.  Cursed mark amplification bumps them up to be king chunin.




This. They struggled to take out two exhausted Special Jounin even with their full cooperation, it stands to reason that most full-fledged Jounin would easily trash them.

Suggesting that CE Sasuke was "high Chuunin" is also completely asinine.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

The Undying said:


> This. They struggled to take out two exhausted Special Jounin even with their full cooperation, it stands to reason that most full-fledged Jounin would easily trash them.



People say this, but then forget that Shizune, a "full fledged Jonin," said it was _impossible_ for both of them to have been defeated. So your argument is the only thing that's "completely asinine."​


The Undying said:


> Suggesting that CE Sasuke was "high Chuunin" is also completely asinine.



Compare CE Sasuke to the Demon Brothers or CE Shikamaru. Sasuke would be able to beat 3-5 of them at once. So it's " completely asinine" to say he's not high and they're not low.​


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## The Undying (Aug 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> People say this, but then forget that Shizune, a "full fledged Jonin," said it was _impossible_ for both of them to have been defeated.​




Doesn't change a thing about what I just said. Mental gymnastics aren't helping you here.



> Compare CE Sasuke to the Demon Brothers or CE Shikamaru. Sasuke would be able to beat 3-5 of them at once. So I don't know what's "asinine" about saying he's high and they're low.​




Doesn't surprise me at all that you'd hold that opinion considering you consistently seem to overestimate every form of Sasuke there is.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Doesn't change a thing about what I just said. Mental gymnastics aren't helping you here.



No, mental gymnastics is ignoring a Jonin saying a feat was impossible and then saying any Jonin could perform said feat with ease. Like, really, re-read that and think about it.​


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## The Undying (Aug 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> No, mental gymnastics is ignoring a Jonin saying a feat was impossible and then saying any Jonin could perform said feat with ease.​




Did she say it was impossible _for her_ or was she just commenting on the unlikelihood of them being defeated in their perceived circumstances, i.e. how any decently rational person would interpret that statement?

Even then, your half-assed rebuttal isn't relevant to what I actually said. You're just changing the goalposts and then expecting me to give you a serious response.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

Did she say it was impossible for her?

Or are you adding in words that aren't there to change the meaning?​


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## The Undying (Aug 28, 2015)

I love how you seriously think she was implying the very idea of two _weary_ Special Jounin getting defeated was an impossibility in general.

Congratulations, you're even more daft than I thought.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> 90% of these aren't Jonin.
> 
> 
> 
> fix'd



 
Jounin level I thought that was obvious so which competitor isn't jounin level

@start 
It could have been impossible for genma and raido to loose due to Hirashin though 
So far it's the only tbing displayed that would guarantee they won't loose 
Which they didn't 


They escaped something most people forget


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## Amol (Aug 28, 2015)

They get stomped by everyone on the list


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

@strat chouji and kankuro being anywhere close to kage level is hilarious when you consider both would loose to part 1 kakashi or asuma  and stand no chance of beating Mei 

Chouji and kankuro are jounin level at best 

@Amol vote part 1 Sasuke beating the sound 4 is hilarious at best


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 28, 2015)

Temari and Choji stomp the shit out of them.

Everyone else bar Sasuke & Gaara win with medium difficulty.


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## Sorin (Aug 28, 2015)

Yeah i'm with DaWizWiz with some exceptions...they get stomped into fine paste by chouji at least. Temari can take them in one attack as well. The rest besides vote Sasuke and Haku are beating them with low to mid diff as well. 

Vote part 1 Sasuke if he goes full blown CS2 from the start can beat them. But that's unlikely since he was pretty arrogant back there and could fall before he levels up. Individually he shits on them. But Sasuke at the end of part 1 isn't jounin level by any stretch of the imagination. He's a top chunin at best. 

Haku, i don't know if he has weapons to beat them. He can trap them in ice mirrors then what? Throws senbons at them? As wanked as these sound 4 are they are easily better than that. Not to mention that they have weapons to trap Haku as well. Some webs will do him in. So yeah he loses mid diff.

And i really can't fathom how some people can put Kimimaro as elite jounin. Everything above wave arc Kakashi can murk Kimimaro. For example Kimi would be blitzed to hell and back with no answer by both Kisame and Itachi. Elite jounin like Base Gai and post Oro Invasion arc Kakashi mid diff Kimi. 

Anyway I mentioned the above because i think solid jounins like Kimimaro canonically wreck these bitches(fodder 4) which is where most of these guys stand, besides part1 vote Sasuke and Haku like i said. 

- Kiba garougas them to hell and back. It will be like a hot knife slicing trough butter. 

- Neji bumrushes these fools and closes their tenketsus before they can say fuck. Alternatively he just spins and launches these bitches in the some other zip code. When you can repel Juubi's tail you can do that easily.

- Shikamaru has full knowledge on them. He either chokes them, impales them with shadows or simply makes a plan where they kill each other like the fodders they are.

- Kankuro makes some new puppets out of them, some of them will be simply massacred like Sakon or Ukon but a little faster and more gruesome. Or he can simply poison them and let them die a slow agonizing death.

- End of part 1 Gaara is pretty much at Kimi's level so yeah.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @strat chouji and kankuro being anywhere close to kage level is hilarious when you consider both would loose to part 1 kakashi



Kakashi's going to hurt giant Butterfly Choji with those 4 Raikiri?


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## Ghost (Aug 28, 2015)

Sorin said:


> part 1 isn't jounin level by any stretch of the imagination. He's a top chunin at best.



Genma said Sasuke is Chuunin level during the CE/Sound Invasion. VotE Sauce is way stronger. He is awfully close to that level.


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## Skywalker (Aug 28, 2015)

Sound Four dies to all, what's with the overrating? They're trash.


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## Yoko (Aug 28, 2015)

Individually, these guys would get thrashed here but as a unit they might be able to accomplish something.  If the CQC fighters in Jirobo and Sakon / Ukon manage to last long enough to give Tayuya and Kidomaru time to flee into the forest and out of line-of-sight, these contestants will have to worry about troublesome Genjutsu and 100%+ accurate blind-spot arrows that even 359 degree Byakugan vision struggled with.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

Thank you for dat reasoning skill Yoko.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Temari and Choji stomp the shit out of them.
> 
> Everyone else bar Sasuke & Gaara win with medium difficulty.



explain how kiba wins please
or shikamaru am really curious


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kakashi's going to hurt giant Butterfly Choji with those 4 Raikiri?



Yes why not. being giant doesn't suddenly make his body immune to having little holes in it. also doubt chouji foot gets drilled and he still stays in super size. considering he would be in pain

lets not forget raikiri to the eyes either.


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 28, 2015)

What's with the overyhpe with the sound 4. They struggled against a group of genins.

Like someone said previously, Kiba will just cut through them like butter


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

@sorin

End of part 1 gaara is clearly not kimi level considering the only reason he didn't die was due to sickness
end of part 1 gaara isn't hidan level however would do very well against hidan. its called type match ups 

hidan cant get blood from gaara if he tried his best to do so. and he can very easily be crushed by gaara


Vote sasuke even starting in cs2 isn't suddenly going to beat all 4. that would only make them go cs2, though none have knowledge

sasuke has no knowledge of sakon ability and could engage in cqc then be laughably killed by sakon. he sure as hell wont stab himself when he got 4 other enemies to deal with 

war arc kiba cant spin off kidomaru webs, if EMS sasuke didn't think to use some version of chidori which is clearly sharper than kiba spinning no reason to think kiba spin cuts the webs

war arc neji really lacks feats defensively yh he could certainly be hard for them to kill. but then again he could fall to sakon if he doesn't air palm him or close his chakra points


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> What's with the overyhpe with the sound 4. They struggled against a group of genins.



1. Butterfly Choji wans't Genin level. He was physically stronger than Tsunade and had a huge speed boost.

2. Neji wasn't Genin level. He had a 4.5 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed, and had the perfect abilities to counter Kidomaru's webs and sniping.

3. Temari wasn't Genin level. She used a very broken summoning jutsu that instantly destroyed the forest.

4. Sakon wasn't Genin level, since in base he easily beat up CE Sasuke, who was said to be Chunin level.

You can say they're all elite Chunin level at worst, light years ahead of weak Chunin like the Demon Brothers.​


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> 1. Butterfly Choji wans't Genin level. He was physically stronger than Tsunade and had a huge speed boost.
> 
> 2. Neji wasn't Genin level. He had a 4.5 in taijutsu and a 4 in speed, and had the perfect abilities to counter Kidomaru's webs and sniping.
> 
> ...



Hey, I'm just saying how it is in the manga. 
In Sasuke Retrieval team, Shikamaru was chunin....the rest were genin. 
The sound 4 struggled with all of them. (technically it's sound 5 since Sakon had his conjoined brother Ukon with him)

PS; SRA Butterfly choji was physically stronger than Tsunade ??? Butterfly mode doesn't really show that it gives a huge speed boost considering the fact that Jirobo was the slowest and weakest of the sound 4


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## The Undying (Aug 28, 2015)

Two of them working together were equal to one exhausted Special Jounin, so all four of them combined are probably capable of matching a low-end Jounin _at the absolute most_. One of them could defeat CE Sasuke, who was basically on par with the average Chuunin.

So individually, they should be around the higher end of mid Chuunin by Konoha's standards. Elite Chuunin like the early Part II rookies shouldn't have any trouble dealing with them.


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## Matty (Aug 28, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> Hey, I'm just saying it how it is in the manga.
> In Sasuke Retrieval team, Shikamaru was chunin....the rest were genin.
> The sound 4 struggled with all of them. (technically it's sound 5 since Sakon had his conjoined brother Ukon with him)
> 
> PS; SRA Butterfly choji was physically stronger than Tsunade ??? Butterfly mode doesn't really show that it gives a huge speed boost considering the fact that Jirobo was the slowest and weakest of the sound 4



Wasn't Naruto a genin when he fought Kakuzu? Just going by the manga...


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 28, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Wasn't Naruto a genin when he fought Kakuzu? Just going by the manga...



Ninja ranking became less and less significant as the series progressed. (especially in shippuden).
As the MC, Ninja ranks were even less significant for him since he's going to be the star regardless of rank.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 28, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> Hey, I'm just saying how it is in the manga.
> In Sasuke Retrieval team, Shikamaru was chunin....the rest were genin.



EoS Naruto and Sasuke were also Genin.

Ranks aren't the end-all-be-all of anything.


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## Matty (Aug 28, 2015)

Well @king you can't just pick and choose when ranks matter. Technically CE gaara was a genin and we all know he was easily high Chunin level already. So they didn't really struggle with genin they struggled with genin ranked ninja who were all more or less chunin level except honestly maybe kiba. And that's not to be a dick I just don't know if he was chunin level yet. Shikamaru was chunin simply based on tactical ability and mental prowess. Choji wouldn't be chunin level without the pills.


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## Deer Lord (Aug 28, 2015)

Errr
VOTE1 sauce wasn't that much stronger than the sound 4.
He'd have trouble with just two of them, all four is overkill.

And I personally don't think so highly of war arc rookies with the exception of chouji.


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

So I still don't get how kiba wins 
since when could he cut kido webs?

also how does he attack all four before being caught in genjutsu?

unless kiba has gotten more than 4 times stronger since his bout with sakon he miserably looses


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## Ghost (Aug 28, 2015)

Dude his wolf mode rips them apart with ease.


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 28, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> EoS Naruto and Sasuke were also Genin.
> 
> *Ranks aren't the end-all-be-all of anything*.



I know, that's why I said Ninja ranks ended up having zero significance for the MC's



KingForever7 said:


> _Ninja ranking became less and less significant as the series progressed. (especially in shippuden).
> As the MC, Ninja ranks were even less significant for him since he's going to be the star regardless of rank_.





matty1991 said:


> Well @king you can't just pick and choose when ranks matter. Technically CE gaara was a genin and we all know he was easily high Chunin level already. So they didn't really struggle with genin they struggled with genin ranked ninja who were all more or less chunin level except honestly maybe kiba. And that's not to be a dick I just don't know if he was chunin level yet. Shikamaru was chunin simply based on tactical ability and mental prowess. Choji wouldn't be chunin level without the pills.



I didn't pick and choose when ranks matter. I just said that the ranks became less significant over the course of the story.......but I guess you're right that even in part 1, Ninja ranks doesn't neccessarily represent some characters skill level.

The problem I have is how the fandom assess skill levels for characters.E.g. Like many people don't factor in that Jirobo is the weakest/slowest of sound 4 and that Sakon/Ukon were the strongest and (manga implied) fastest. So If you say the rest of SRA team were chunin level (except Kiba), when Kiba fought against the strongest of the four and was in a pinch just like shikamaru was.....I just don't comprehend how you wouldn't say that Kiba is Chunin level like the rest.

This doesn't apply to just this case, but in most power/skill level ranking discussions I see.... and It's mostly because it's difficult to compare characters skill/power levels (especially ones that barely appear or fight).

This is also why I think Long (50-100) Character Tier lists are the most pointless/redundant things I see people make/argue over.

PS: I went off topic a bit...oops


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

ghostcrawler said:


> Dude his wolf mode rips them apart with ease.



dude his wolf spinning isn't sharper than chidori. something sasuke opted not to use when faced against kido webs

why on earth would he opt for amaterasu if he could simply use chidori to cut it

he even says cutting it wouldn't work .

kiba dies because he sure as hell hasn't gotten over 4 times stronger since he got beat like a pup against sakon


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## Icegaze (Aug 28, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> I know, that's why I said Ninja ranks ended up having zero significance for the MC's
> 
> 
> 
> ...



manga never implied sakon as the fastest, strongest that wasn't even implied either
do you have scans

all we know and what was clearly stated was jirobo was the weakest and the least skilled as shown from feats. 

ps: kiba in part 1 lost to sakon and ukon and fled. unless u are implying he is gotten well over 4 times stronger than in part 1 he isn't going to beating sound 4 easily 

what we do know is his attack power has tripled. that doesn't suddenly mean sound 4 have forgotten how to use their fire barrier or rashomon 

nor does it mean kiba can target all 4 before tayuya can launch genjutsu, lets not forget the chakra draining monsters she has. they are slow as hell but it does help that kiba would be spinning straight at them


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## thechickensage (Aug 28, 2015)

None of them can win.  And Asuma dies as well.


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## Amol (Aug 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> @Amol vote part 1 Sasuke beating the sound 4 is hilarious at best


Not my fault .
You put a misleading title .
I thought sound 4 is facing Jonin class opponent here .
Then you proceeded to put Sasuke and Haku in it.
Make up your mind .
Now as for thread : Any Jonin stomps them.


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## Bonly (Aug 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> manga never implied sakon as the fastest, strongest that wasn't even implied either
> do you have scans



Manga did imply Sakon was the strongest of the sound four


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2015)

Shizune is a jounin Amol and they would kill her 
Also unless u saying shizune is twice as strong as genma
STFU


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2015)

Bonly said:


> Manga did imply Sakon was the strongest of the sound four



Next panel orochimaru says hahaha who knows to kabuto statement about sakon

Literally next panel you know


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2015)

Shizune neg diffs the sound fodder.


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## Bonly (Aug 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Next panel orochimaru says hahaha who knows to kabuto statement about sakon
> 
> Literally next panel you know



And? **


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## Amol (Aug 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shizune neg diffs the sound fodder.



This.
-snip-
Genma was very tired from a mission which he had just completed.
Orochimaru could have killed either a Naruto or Sasuke after their fight on Vote 2.
Does that make him stronger than either of two ?
It does not .
Use logic if you have ability to think.
Sound 4 are fodders and lost to bunch of genins.
I am lost to words about what in the God's Green Earth they did to deserve this level of wanking .


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2015)

I want to take a minute to talk about how cool Shizune is for a second.

Kabuto had to actually _fight_ Shizune.  Multiple exchanges.  The gas surprised and almost killed him.  Shizune was at a disadvantage by means of having to babysit comatose Tsunade, and she'd already revealed two of her concealed needle attacks to Kabuto beforehand.  Both of which almost killed Kabuto, and gained his recognition.

If you remember, Kabuto instantly killed a room full of Anbu hand picked by Kakashi, laughed at PII Naruto's rasengan ambush.  Jiraiya instantly assessed Kabuto to be around Kakashi's level, and thought Shizune could fight him.  (Entirely different level)  Can dodge giant snake summon attacks while carrying Tsunade.  She's pretty casually twice as strong as tired Genma of the toothpick, unless you think Genma would beat Kabuto in two moves or less.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'm sure the entire squad was said to be beyond Chunin level. Why do you remember otherwise? And Naruto was stronger than fodder Jonin at that point (CE Sasuke speed, Kage level ninjutsu.)​



Oh crap people talked to me.  Strategos people.

I remember them being a squad that was exceptionally skilled and specialized in tracking.  The worst case scenario was that there was a Jonin with them, which there was.  He was shadowing the chunin squad.  The phrase I remember from back in the day was, "They're all probably chunin or above."  Which is different.  We probably had different translations.

Naruto can't really be stronger than fodder Jonin, because he was pretty around the level of his chunin buddies when he got back.  Unless every one of the Konoha 12 were Jonin and beyond, and that doesn't really work out.  You can't even assume they arbitrarily decided none of them got to be Jonin for some reason, because Neji was promoted.  With kyuubi chakra, he was around there and climbing with the more tails he got.


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2015)

Bonly said:


> And? **



 it refutes the sakon is the strongest 
since right after orochimaru suggests it could be tayuya


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> I want to take a minute to talk about how cool Shizune is for a second.
> 
> Kabuto had to actually _fight_ Shizune.  Multiple exchanges.  The gas surprised and almost killed him.  Shizune was at a disadvantage by means of having to babysit comatose Tsunade, and she'd already revealed two of her concealed needle attacks to Kabuto beforehand.  Both of which almost killed Kabuto, and gained his recognition.
> 
> If you remember, Kabuto instantly killed a room full of Anbu hand picked by Kakashi, laughed at PII Naruto's rasengan ambush.  Jiraiya instantly assessed Kabuto to be around Kakashi's level, and thought Shizune could fight him.  (Entirely different level)  Can dodge giant snake summon attacks while carrying Tsunade.  She's pretty casually twice as strong as tired Genma of the toothpick, unless you think Genma would beat Kabuto in two moves or less.



well shizune lost to kabuto casually I might add
she never came close to beating him. he finished her in 2 moves

so nothing at all indicates shizune is above genma to begin with considering when kabuto and baki fought genma and kakashi genma was killed in 2 moves

off panel, however considering they both lack feats and genma is the one who is on minato personal bodyguard I don't really see how one can consider shizune superior to him or raido

also again tired genma and raido didn't win, they fled.

ps: about shizune handling kabuto we know how that went, she tried kabuto used 2 moves and she lost. so one cant really say shizune is above genma based on that. jiraiya thought she could handle kabuto but she clearly couldn't 

team ino+shika+chou thought they could beat kakuzu and hidan on their own. we know how that would have gone don't we


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> manga never implied sakon as the fastest, strongest that wasn't even implied either
> do you have scans
> 
> all we know and what was clearly stated was jirobo was the weakest and the least skilled as shown from feats.



I'm sure you've already seen this panel but,  here's the scan where Orochimaru states Sakon as the *strongest of the 4*.  Oro was just concerned about their personalities.


Here are 2 scans where we have reactions from both Naruto and Kiba regarding Sakon's speed. With this it can be infered that Sakon is the* fastest of the four*.






Icegaze said:


> ps: kiba in part 1 lost to sakon and ukon and fled. unless u are implying he is gotten well over 4 times stronger than in part 1 he isn't going to beating sound 4 easily
> 
> what we do know is his attack power has tripled. that doesn't suddenly mean sound 4 have forgotten how to use their fire barrier or rashomon



I think this gif best represents what would happen if they tried using the rashomon gates again.




Icegaze said:


> nor does it mean kiba can target all 4 before tayuya can launch genjutsu, lets not forget the chakra draining monsters she has. they are slow as hell but it does help that kiba would be spinning straight at them



pff, Tayuya .
Literally, stab yourself to escape her genjutsu and move out of danger.
+ Kiba was already physically stronger and faster than Shikamaru in part 1, so a rematch with Tayuya would be a slice of butter



Icegaze said:


> dude his wolf spinning isn't sharper than chidori. something sasuke opted not to use when faced against kido webs
> 
> he even says cutting it wouldn't work .
> 
> kiba dies because he sure as hell hasn't gotten over 4 times stronger since he got beat like a pup against sakon



What makes you think Kiba's mid-range Tail spinning fang isn't sharper than the short ranged  part 1 chidori ? 

Plus, People never seem to realise that Kiba (and his puppy) were fighting 2 people, Sakon *and* Ukon (They each have individual stats too......Which is why Orochimaru said they were the strongest because it was a 2 in 1).  In SRA, if Kiba used his 2HW on any of the of the other sound four (at least Jirobo or Tayuya).....They would've been one-shotted


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## Icegaze (Aug 29, 2015)

KingForever7 said:


> I'm sure you've already seen this panel but,  here's the scan where Orochimaru states Sakon as the *strongest of the 4*.  Oro was just concerned about their personalities.



oro says who knows then mentions tayuya next panel 



> Here are 2 scans where we have reactions from both Naruto and Kiba regarding Sakon's speed. With this it can be infered that Sakon is the* fastest of the four*.



sakon was the only one actively chasing them 





> I think this gif best represents what would happen if they tried using the rashomon gates again.



lol non canon 
try harder 




> pff, Tayuya .
> Literally, stab yourself to escape her genjutsu and move out of danger.
> + Kiba was already physically stronger and faster than Shikamaru in part 1, so a rematch with Tayuya would be a slice of butter




yh and someone like kiba has the intelligence to do that?  maybe actually he does like to stab himself. 



> What makes you think Kiba's mid-range Tail spinning fang isn't sharper than the short ranged  part 1 chidori


? 

 part 2 chidori from EMS sasuke you mean 

its in part 2 that saske decided to use amaterasu against kido webs vs usng chidori to cut through 

so whats sharper kiba spin or chidori. feel free to poll it 



> Plus, People never seem to realise that Kiba (and his puppy) were fighting 2 people, Sakon *and* Ukon (They each have individual stats too......Which is why Orochimaru said they were the strongest because it was a 2 in 1).  In SRA, if Kiba used his 2HW on any of the of the other sound four (at least Jirobo or Tayuya).....They would've been one-shotted


[/QUOTE]

well I concede perhaps ukon and sakon are the strongest. 

possibly yh if kiba managed to pull it off against any of them they could have been though, kiba spin didn't seem fast enough at the time to blitz them. ukon and sakon avoided it and also reacted to it 

the spin still has nothing to suggest it cuts kido webs in part 1 or 2 

then again like I said unless kiba has become several times stronger since part 1 he isn't going to win a 5 vs 1 match here.


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## Punished Kiba (Aug 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oro says who knows then mentions tayuya next panel



Read the scan again. 
Oro says "who knows, Tayuya has a personality just as bad".....he's clearly referring to the their personalities, not their powers.

If he wanted to say that Tayuya is just as strong as Sakon he would'be said "who knows, Tayuya is just as strong"....



Icegaze said:


> sakon was the only one actively chasing them



Unless you have proof to show that the others are faster.....I'm gonna stick with Sakon being the fastest.



Icegaze said:


> lol non canon
> try harder



I know 
But, It's still a good representation of what would happen when they try rashomon gates again with war arc kiba.




Icegaze said:


> part 2 chidori from EMS sasuke you mean
> 
> its in part 2 that saske decided to use amaterasu against kido webs vs usng chidori to cut through
> 
> so whats sharper kiba spin or chidori. feel free to poll it



Oh, you're referring to the fight between kabuto and the uchiha bros. (One of the most forgettable fights in the war imo). Perhaps, the chidori is specialized for piercing, not slicing. (There's a difference)

I could poll it.....but it's pointless pitting an unpopular technique against a popular technique.



Icegaze said:


> well I concede perhaps ukon and sakon are the strongest.
> 
> possibly yh if kiba managed to pull it off against any of them they could have been though, kiba spin didn't seem fast enough at the time to blitz them. ukon and sakon avoided it and also reacted to it



Regarding Kiba's fight with Sakon and Ukon, his first attack didn't work because he wasn't aware that he was actually fighting two people. So, Kiba was suddenly at a disadvantage.

Also, with Kiba's 2HW, they avoided it slightly, and even though it didn't directly hit them, It was still strong enough to rip them in two.


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## Bonly (Aug 29, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> it refutes the sakon is the strongest
> since right after orochimaru suggests it could be tayuya





No it doesn't. The entire page is them talking about reason why the sound four might be late like Kido playing games and what not. Kabuto mentioned Sakon's bad personalty traits and Orochi says "who knows, *Tayuya has a personality just as bad*". Orochi isn't doubt that Sakon the strongest just that Tayuya has as bad a personality


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## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Naruto can't really be stronger than fodder Jonin, because he was pretty around the level of his chunin buddies when he got back.



You're depending way too much on rank. A decent chunk of the Konoha 12 would wreck kid Kakashi despite being a lower rank than him, and even kid Kakashi is _way_ above fodder Jonin.​


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## Yoko (Aug 29, 2015)

Naruto wrecked a Chunin in the very first chapter in Mizuki, which in of itself should speak volumes of his power standing.  Get that very same Naruto, give him a boss summon, Rasengan, and Kyuubi boosts in addition to the "casual" physical boost he got from training throughout Part 1 (speed, strength, Taijutsu skill, chakra control, basically general improvements in the fundamentals), and it shouldn't be far fetched to say he's Jonin level.

Another example - Obito, who'd just unlocked his 2-tomoe Sharingan literally ten seconds prior, managed to kill the invisible Jonin that was harassing him and Kakashi.  Naruto, on the other hand, was fighting on par with a seasoned 3-tomoe Sharingan user, and that 3-tomoe Sharingan user had a Senjutsu boost in CS1 and CS2.  Keep in mind this was without using Gamabunta in the battle.

Of course, it all depends on which characters you use to represent a rank.  If we use people like Asuma to describe the Jonin rank, then you'll obviously run into some problems, but I'd think people like him are supposed to represent the epitome of Jonin level rather than the status quo.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

Yoko, don't tell Kom, but I love you. That's 100% my viewpoint.​


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

I'm with POW here. If the Konoha 12 were Jounin-level at the beginning of Part II, there isn't a single reason they wouldn't have been promoted to that rank, and comparing them to someone like kid Kakashi who we saw _very little of_ in less circumstantial combat situations doesn't really change that. They're elite Chuunin, but Chuunin nonetheless. This point is further established in Road to Ninja when Tsunade rejects their applications for the Jounin rank (and that movie's canonicity is besides the point since it was still written by Kishimoto).

Now if we take that and scale it, I'd argue that Asuma represents the status quo rather than the epitome. Really, the population of Jounin in Konoha were implied to be small to begin with. Most of the familiar ones posssessed exceptional fighting capabilities and were usually well-rounded to boot, and the term "fodder Jounin" in general sounds contradictory when one considers that there have in fact been few confirmed Leaf Jounin from the get-go that were even seen in combat. They're the cream of the crop for a reason.

Early Shippuuden Naruto is Chuunin-level without his Kyuubi boosts IMO, with them he's higher.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Undying said:


> I'm with POW here. If the Konoha 12 were Jounin-level at the beginning of Part II, there isn't a single reason they wouldn't have been promoted to that rank



Look at the CE. Shikamaru was promoted while Neji, Sasuke, Lee, KN0, and Gaara weren't. Yet Shikamaru would be blitzed and neg-diffed by them, just like prelim Sasuke against weighted Lee.

With this fact in mind, it's perfectly plausible that other Konoha 12 shinobi met the power qualification for Jonin, but were lacking in something non-power to be promoted, if they even tried.​


The Undying said:


> Now if we take that and scale it, I'd argue that Asuma represents the status quo rather than the epitome.



Definitely not. He was one of the 12 Guardian ninja, had an enormous bounty on his head, and when reincarnated, was named as one of the two strongest ninja on the (multination) battlefield.

I'd even go so far as to say that any ninja Kabuto bothered to revive with Edo Tensei was a Jonin+ level in terms of power, as thousands of other Jonin that lived never earned that honor.​


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

The CE doesn't really contradict my point though, since Chuunin promotions obviously involve an entirely different process than Jounin ones. The _entire_ point of that one scene where Neji is revealed to have been promoted above everyone else was to establish him being a step ahead in terms of the rank's minimum entailed requirements, there's also the Road to Ninja bit that conclusively shows that the Konoha 12 weren't considered to satisfy those requirements. 

And of course not all Jounin are going to defeat all Chuunin. I never claimed that, nor did I claim that power was the only consideration for rank promotions.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Undying said:


> The CE doesn't really contradict my point though, since Chuunin promotions obviously involve an entirely different process than Jounin ones.



We don't know the process of the Jonin Exams so I don't know how you drew that conclusion. And like the Chunin Exams, it's possible that power is not the deciding factor in promotion.

In any case, kid Obito with the 2-tomoe was able to kill a Jonin. Kid Obito's stats were provided, and he's overall much less skilled than CE Sasuke. It thus makes sense that CE Sasuke can kill low Jonin.

And we already saw Wave Arc Sasuke and beginning of the series Naruto defeat Chunin, so they pretty much went into the series with a Chunin level of power despite only having a Genin rank.​


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 29, 2015)

Gamabunta alone would make Part 1 Naruto Kage-level if he could reliably summon him at will, but he couldn't.

There is no such thing as a "very weak Jōnin", since Jōnin are by definition the elites. It doesn't matter if they're fodder because that only has to do with relevance, not power.

It's far fetched that any of the Part 1 Konoha 12 were actually Jōnin level fighters when you consider Sasuke's difficulty breathing near Zabuza, Neji's inability to reach Hinata before all of the Jōnin stopped him, CE Sasuke being explicitly stated to be Chūnin level, how Naruto was treated in the Search for Tsunade arc compared to Shizune, and how much of a problem the Sasuke Retrieval Team had with the individual members of the Sound 4 (Chōji almost dying, Neji admitting Kidomaru was far stronger than he was, Shikamaru and Kiba requiring assistance from the Sand) who themselves could only beat two special Jōnin because they were already exhausted from their previous mission (their rank actually being pointed out by the smartest of the Sound 4 when they were trying to recover).

The only reason Obito was able to stab Taiseki was because he didn't think he could be seen at the time. Nothing about that shows that Obito was Jōnin-level once he unlocked the two-tomoe.


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

Jounin promotions were already confirmed to consist of an application-approval process. General fighting ability and overall versatility was said to be a defining trait of the rank, not just raw power, so I never disputed that point.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> It's far fetched that any of the Part 1 Konoha 12 were actually Jōnin level fighters when you consider Sasuke's difficulty breathing near Zabuza



Sasuke wasn't afraid at all the second time facing Zabuza, when he blitzed all of Zabuza water clones. And CE Sasuke was _way_ stronger than Wave Sasuke. Zabuza's also a _legendary_ Jonin swordsman.​


FlamingRain said:


> Neji's inability to reach Hinata before all of the Jōnin stopped him



Like how Tobirama blitzed past BM Minato and Jubito at points? It was an interception device for the sake of the story, and not a reflection of how the characters' speeds actually matched up.​


FlamingRain said:


> CE Sasuke being explicitly stated to be Chūnin level



After only briefly seeing some of his abilities, namely speed and the Jonin+ Chidori, and not the extent of skill or arsenal. Yeah, he said he was definitely Chunin, at a minimum.​


FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke Retrieval Team had with the individual members of the Sound 4



Sound Village elites. Sakon in base easily beat up CE Sasuke, who you just said was stated to be Chunin level. So that would put _base_ Sakon at a high Chunin level, at a minimum.​


FlamingRain said:


> who themselves could only beat two special Jōnin



The two special Jonin that were said to be _impossible to defeat_ by Shizune, a full-fledged Jonin. You'd think after a statement like that from a Jonin you'd stop focusing so much on rank.​


FlamingRain said:


> The only reason Obito was able to stab Taiseki was because he didn't think he could be seen at the time. N*othing about that shows that Obito was Jōnin-level *once he unlocked the two-tomoe.



Uh, other than killing a Jonin. It's not like Taiseki was blind to Obito's actions. And Chunin Lee with a 5 in taijutsu and a 4.5 in speed would neg diff the fuck out of kid Obito.​


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## Yoko (Aug 29, 2015)

To build upon what Strategos said, the toothpick proctor stated that Sasuke was "already at the Chunin level," and his tone (or at least how I perceive it) doesn't make it seem as if Sasuke _barely_ qualified, but was already well within the Chunin tier.  He didn't seem to express any doubt in Sasuke's standing (purely subjective from my point of view, but thought I'd mention it).

Now give a Chunin 3-tomoe Sharingan (massive reflex boost, as demonstrated against KN0 Naruto) and pseudo-Sage Mode in CS1 and CS2 . . . and can you still honestly say he is Chunin level? Those are pretty big power ups to keep someone in the same tier.

IMO this entire discussion is extremely circular until we pin point whom defines the benchmark for any given tier, and that is impossible.  What is Genin level? Is academy Naruto Genin level, despite beating a Chunin? Is Wave Sasuke Genin level, despite holding off two Chunin? Is Lee Genin level, who rag-dolled that same Sasuke while artificially restricting himself? I don't think the manga did a great job in establishing consistency in rankings, even before Part II.


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

Missed this point since you were editing while I was posting:



Strategoob said:


> Definitely not. He was one of the 12 Guardian ninja, had an enormous bounty on his head, and when reincarnated, was named as one of the two strongest ninja on the (multination) battlefield.



I fail to see how this conflicts with my point when I've already said that all Jounin in general are reputed on several occasions to _stand out_ among their military peers in how formidable they are. Asuma having some prior achievements just reinforces his standing as a Jounin, it's not in spite of it. There's no basis for arguing this rank is anything but uncommon as a whole.

Even if Asuma _is_ above the average Jounin, there is absolutely no reason to think he's in another league entirely.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Undying said:


> I fail to see how this conflicts with my point when I've already said that all Jounin in general are reputed on several occasions to _stand out_ among their military peers in how formidable they are. Asuma having some prior achievements just reinforces his standing as a Jounin, it's not in spite of it. There's no basis for arguing this rank is anything but uncommon as a whole.
> 
> Even if Asuma _is_ above the average Jounin, there is absolutely no reason to think he's in another league entirely.



Think of it this way: the Chunin spectrum, from your viewpoint, spans from the two Demon Brothers that were held off by Wave Sasuke, to p2 Lee who could probably beat 1000 Wave Sasukes.

The Kage spectrum spans from rusty Tsunade, who was struggling against elite Jonin level Kabuto, to Hashirama, who could defeat 1000 Kabutos and then some.

The Jonin spectrum has that same large scale from low to high, and Asuma was indicated by Kakuzu to be on the upper end, with people on the lower end being kid Kakashi and Taiseki.

The enormous spectrum of each rank makes each rank relatively pointless to mention in the BD. Strong Jonin are stronger than weak Kage, strong Chunin are stronger than weak Jonin, etc. 

The results of the Chunin Exam reinforced this point to me. I'd say that post-CE Sasuke, Neji, Lee, and Gaara would be able to defeat several Shikamarus at once despite being lower rank.​


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## FlamingRain (Aug 29, 2015)

It isn't pointless because references to Genin, Chūnin, and Jōnin-level are only meant to compare certain characters to the anticipated threat levels of ninja ranked as such.

That's all it is both in the Narutoverse and in the BD.

There are no Kage weaker than strong Jōnin-levels, there are Kage-level Jōnin. There are no Jōnin weaker than Chūnin-levels, there are Chūnin that can fight at the Jōnin-level.

Sasuke was canonically a Chūnin-level Genin, and there is no issue there. I mean does suggesting somebody is ready for the Chūnin Exams not presuppose that they're Chūnin level?



Strategoob said:


> Sasuke wasn't afraid at all the second time facing Zabuza, when he blitzed all of Zabuza water clones. And CE Sasuke was _way_ stronger than Wave Sasuke. Zabuza's also a legendary Jonin swordsmen.​



I'm just listing examples up to the point where the Sound 4 came in. Sasuke's growth during the first and second battles with Zabuza and Haku doesn't negate the fact that he's observed to only be a Chūnin-level fighter in Part 1.



> Kind of like how Tobirama was blitzing BM Minato and Jubito at points, right?​



He wasn't. Minato and Jūbito both realized what was happening when Tobirama acted. Obito even shielded himself before the detonation.

Speed is required to intercept something, and yes Kishi knows that because Jiraiya couldn't intercept Orochimaru's attack on Naruto in time from his position whereas the much closer Tsunade could. Tobirama was able to do what he did because he could teleport, meaning he could register the event and be there.



> After only briefly seeing some of his abilities, and not the extent.​



What he had shown was the best he could have even offered at the time.



> The sound 4, who one member in base, easily beat up CE Sasuke, who you just said was stated to be Chunin level.​



Easily beating up a Chūnin-level fighter does not make you a Jōnin-level fighter.



> The two special Jonin that were said to be impossible to defeat by Shizune, a full-fledhe Jonin.​



I've only seen translations where Shizune asks how they could both be defeated.

Regardless, that only shows that it's surprising for two higher ups to be taken out like that, which is reasonable since most people shouldn't be able to do that. Most ninja aren't Jōnin or even special Jōnin strong, though, and we're informed that the loss was due to their prior exhaustion. Consider also that it was 4 on 2, and the level of the individual Sound 4 would be even lesser, and naturally so would the level of the SRA team.

Shizune's own rank is impertinent, since she doesn't have to be unable to do something herself to find it surprising that someone else could do it.



> Other than killing a Jonin.



Which only goes to show that Taiseki was _that_ taken aback by the fact that he could suddenly be seen when up 'til just a moment ago he could sneak around just fine. _(1)_ _(2)_ _(3)_.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2015)

Ninja aren't graded based on what they can do with unreliable or forbidden power.  Naruto's summoning was incredibly unreliable, as was his ability to manifest kyuubi chakra, and his control over himself while tapping it.  Likewise, Dai could open 8 gates and beat up the 7 Mist Swordsman, but his standard power and ability was that of a genin.  

You can't send they Dai guy on an S or A or even B rank mission because he's capable of doing a bang up job once before death.  Likewise, you can't send Naruto alone on a Jounin class mission, just because 1/5 times he can summon something other than a tadpole he'll win, and if he happens to come across some Jonin that stab him in the heart, the Kyuubi will come out and heal him as he runs around with an increasing number of tails berzerk across the countryside until he goes full kyuubi, passes out, or dies.  What Naruto could do was fight reliably at the level of a really good chunin, and back up a squad of fellow chunin lead by a good Jonin.  So that's what they had him do.  That's what his team mates could do too, which is what Chunin do, and they were graded at that, and asked to do that.


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Think of it this way: the Chunin spectrum, from your viewpoint, spans from the two Demon Brothers that were held off by Wave Sasuke, to p2 Lee who could probably beat 1000 Wave Sasukes.




Wave Sasuke holding off the Demon Brothers doesn't necessarily make Sasuke an equivalent combatant to the Demon Brothers, so I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove. Wave Arc Team 7 basically consisted of elite Genin if we ignore power-ups, and I'm certainly not about to argue that post-CE Sasuke, Neji, Lee, and Gaara could defeat _several_ Shikamarus at once. That sounds asinine when you consider some of Shikamaru's individual feats; to be honest, I think you're just underestimating him horribly.



> The Kage spectrum spans from rusty Tsunade, who was struggling against elite Jonin level Kabuto, to Hashirama, who could defeat 1000 Kabutos and then some.




Are you implying that a _rusty_ Kage-level shinobi couldn't possibly struggle against an elite Jounin? Because that makes very little sense to me. Kage isn't even technically a _spectrum_ since there can only be one at a time and it's something that, strength-wise, at least, is almost always arbitrarily ranked by the single most formidable individual in any given village. Any overlap in rank spectrums, I think, can mostly be attributed to the differences in military strength between villages.



> The Jonin spectrum has that same large scale from low to high, and Asuma was indicated by Kakuzu to be on the upper end, with people on the lower end being kid Kakashi and Taiseki.




I simply don't think we're going to agree at this point, particularly when talking about "weak Jounin" since there's barely anything in the entire series that would even allow us to postulate such a ranking. We haven't seen enough of kid Kakashi to determine how he'd fare in extensive combat, and to me it's _insanely_ obvious that Taiseki wouldn't have died if he hadn't underestimated Obito's awakening of the Sharingan. You don't automatically become a Jounin-level ninja just because you managed to catch one off-guard mentally, that's absurd reasoning. Pit those two against each other under full-knowledge stipulations and I'm positive that Taiseki would have very little trouble with Obito.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Undying said:


> I'm certainly not about to argue that post-CE Sasuke, Neji, Lee, and Gaara could defeat _several_ Shikamarus at once.



Shikamaru was slower than Wave Sasuke, who couldn't react to weighted Lee at all, even with the 2-tomoe. So the three fast Genin would wreck multiple Shikamaru just like Wave Kakashi would.​


----------



## FlamingRain (Aug 29, 2015)

> I'm certainly not about to argue that post-CE Sasuke, Neji, Lee, and Gaara could defeat several Shikamarus at once.



Where did I even say this? 



Oh, okay, you edited it.


----------



## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Speed is required to intercept something



Interception feats have been used so often in the manga that I'm amazed we're arguing about it.

Take for instance this panel of Genin Naruto (with a broken leg) getting up off the ground from this distance and intercepting Kabuto with his headband before Kabuto can react to the movement.

Thst has just as much bearing on relevant speed and refelxes as the Jonin intercepting Neji beating Hinata. Which is _none_. Because interception feats are plot driven and not relevant to combat speed.​


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Shikamaru was slower than Wave Sasuke, who couldn't react to weighted Lee at all, even with the 2-tomoe. So the three fast Genin would wreck multiple Shikamaru just like Wave Kakashi would.




Shikamaru's movement speed is irrelevant considering he was capable of easily binding someone in the exact same speed tier as Sasuke in the exams. What on earth gives you the impression he's _that_ far below his peers when his arsenal consists of ranged techniques that can move _at least_ as quickly as a 3-tier speedster?


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## Sadgoob (Aug 29, 2015)

The Undying said:


> Shikamaru's movement speed is irrelevant considering he was capable of easily binding someone in the exact same speed tier as Sasuke in the exams. What on earth gives you the impression he's _that_ far below his peers when his arsenal consists of ranged techniques that can move _at least_ as quickly as a 3-tier speedster?



Wave Sasuke with the 2-tomoe Sharingan was faster than Shikamaru and was still easily  by weighted Lee. CE Sasuke was weightless Lee speed and would bltiz Shikamaru.​


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## The Undying (Aug 29, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Who's the speedster Shikamaru bound?




Dosu. The databook pegs him as having a 3 in that category and was physically fast enough to give Lee difficulty. He was moving at _full_ speed towards Chouji at a distance of only a few feet and was still caught by Shikamaru's shadow before he could reach that distance despite Shikamaru himself physically being further away. If Shikamaru couldn't react to that level of speed and if his shadow abilities couldn't travel at least as fast as Dosu, he wouldn't be accomplishing that feat. That's not even including Shika's individual improvements (including body speed and Ninjutsu) between DB1 and DB2.

There's generally no way Shikamaru would achieve half the feats we see from a ninja of his caliber if he was so weak he'd stand no chance against someone like weighted Lee or Wave Sasuke, not to mention highly doubtful that he'd be considered worthy of the Chuunin rank at all. You're underestimating him.

To answer your question about the "Chuunin spectrum", it ranges from PI Shikamaru to PII Konoha 12. I don't think that contradicts any information we've been given about their individual standings, and there's nothing that would suggest the lower end of Jounin overlaps with this range (at least in Konoha specifically).


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 29, 2015)

> well shizune lost



If that's all you consider then you're doing less than skimming the surface of the manga to assess characters.



> casually I might add



If it was casually, Kabuto wouldn't have gone "!" as the poison cloud enveloped him, and Shizune wouldn't have thought she defeated him.  Kabuto wouldn't have sweat her needle spit if it was something he could handle casually.  Face it, they were close encounters he barely escaped, and ninjas don't twice almost kill someone who casually beats them.


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## Icegaze (Aug 30, 2015)

Madara went "!" Against 7th gate gai yet still casually beat him 
Kakashi went "!" Against genin sasuke yet we know they are worlds apart 

If that's all ur considering then you are just skimming the surface 

The end result is what matters . And in the end she got slapped aside 

If she almost killed him he would have commented on it and at least been hurt from it 

He received no damage therefore she couldn't have almost killed him 

Try harder pls


----------



## FlamingRain (Sep 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Interception feats have been used so often in the manga that I'm amazed we're arguing about it.​



And certain requirements still have to be met for them to be pulled off. How close character x is to character y, what direction characters x and y are going in, how character x and y are moving, the point at which they began to move/where they were at what time, etc, still matter. They are not automatically ignored. That's why when Gai did it during Operation Destroy Konoha he got a remark about his speed, and why Tsunade/Bunta/Fukasaku saw images of Jiraiya and Minato when Naruto smashed Asura before it got to Tsunade. They're not supposed to just be ignored.

Kishi _didn't need to_ have _each_ of those Jōnin stop Neji, either. He could have just let Hayate do it alone, but no that's not what happened- everybody else got there, too. Nothing about the plot really demanded that they get over there, so that doesn't explain how they did it.

It's just one example of several where the dissimilarity in level was highlighted.


*Spoiler*: _Your earlier list if you still care_ 





> Sage Naruto effortlessly blitzed Asura, but Kakashi couldn't hit Asura. So could Sage Naruto effortlessly blitz Kakashi?​



The Six Paths of Pain are all being seen through by the same Nagato. Nagato's reactions are theirs, and Nagato's focus on Naruto is the main difference between Asura being blitzed while charging Tsunade and speed being a non factor against the other paths later on when they were actually trying to deal with Naruto (the other being simply getting used to his speed). Nagato was focused on Kakashi when Asura ducked Raikiri.

Naruto also seemingly sensed the incoming assault before Asura even took off _(1)_, so he likely started moving pretty early.



> Bee intercepted A against KCM Naruto from a much further distance. Does this mean Bee's faster than those two?​



It's Ay and Naruto's direct movement speeds with Shunshin that are outrageously fast, and they were not using them in that instance.

We don't even know at what point Bee started moving. It could have been when Raikage first said he'd kill Naruto before he even threw the punch or Naruto even formed that hand sign for all we know. Notice that Tsunade was soon shown having started over there too but didn't intercept him, she just noticed that Bee (who is faster than she is and again could have started sooner) did.

The proctor and senseis moved _in response to Neji advancing towards Hinata_ and then still cut him off, having stated that the match was already finished at that point. It highlights the difference between them just like Asuma casually decimating the group of ninja that were supposed to annihilate Sakura, Shikamaru, and Naruto (who Shikamaru and Sakura watched beat Neji earlier).



> Naurto swooped in and saved Sakura from Sasuke when Sasuke was much closer. Can Naruto can blitz Sasuke?​



The tired out, battle-worn Sasuke that had only barely been healed by Karin and was starting to deal with vision problems? The one that was repeatedly stated to be in trouble because of his condition? I wouldn't be surprised if he could.

Naruto's Shunshin should be able to carry him and then Sakura for a bit in the time it takes that Sasuke to snatch the kunai from her and slash her with a swing of it.

Kakashi would've made it in time had it not been for some rather untimely Mangekyō recoil.



> Haku covered fifty times the distances than Kakashi when Kakashi was about to land Raikiri on Zabuza, and Kakashi didn't perceive it.​



Yet Zabuza did.

I don't know where you're getting "fifty times the distances" from either.

In the Land of Waves Prologue Kakashi and Zabuza's entire fight took place in the space between Sakura/Tazuna and Haku's Crystal Ice Mirrors. Naruto knocked Haku through the mirrors and Haku stood up facing his direction, yet looked over his shoulder behind him when he sensed that Zabuza was in danger, meaning that Naruto's punch that broke him through had actually knocked Haku even farther in Kakashi and Zabuza's direction.

Haku shouldn't have had that far to go, and when using his ice mirrors to project himself he should have been much faster than Wave Arc Kakashi's physical speed anyway (since Haku's own is in the same range according to the databook).

In the Fourth Great Ninja War we have no idea where Haku might've started from, at least as far as I'm aware.



> Tobirama swept in with a shunshin and saved the day when BM Minato wasn't able to react. Tobirama blitzes BM Minato?​



Minato did react because he asked when Obito got it there, then noted that Obito had attached the orb to him when he was hit earlier and said he'd have to jump with it. This particular feat also has even more ambiguity around how long the performer was in motion than any other feat on the list.

So no it doesn't equate to Tobirama blitzing BM Minato.






Strategoob said:


> Take for instance this panel of Genin Naruto (with a broken leg) getting up off the ground from this distance and intercepting Kabuto with his headband before Kabuto can react to the movement.​



Kabuto said that if it was only the fracture in his leg he'd still be able to move, and before he hit him with the Scalpel again that's all it was.

Kabuto had also already hit Tsunade several times before Naruto actually got over there, and you can see in the panel on the page just before the first one you linked to that when Naruto actually got over there Kabuto _did_ notice him. I'm not really sure what one would have expected Kabuto to have done besides watch Naruto take the hit, though.


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## Mercurial (Sep 2, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> If that's all you consider then you're doing less than skimming the surface of the manga to assess characters.
> 
> 
> 
> If it was casually, Kabuto wouldn't have gone "!" as the poison cloud enveloped him, and Shizune wouldn't have thought she defeated him.  Kabuto wouldn't have sweat her needle spit if it was something he could handle casually.  Face it, they were close encounters he barely escaped, and ninjas don't twice almost kill someone who casually beats them.



In the bell test Kakashi went "!" against Sasuke and Sasuke thought that his Katon defeated Kakashi. Oh well. Kabuto casually manhandled Shizune.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> In the bell test Kakashi went "!" against Sasuke and Sasuke thought that his Katon defeated Kakashi. Oh well. Kabuto casually manhandled Shizune.



POW solo'd right there

shizune almost defeated kabuto is a hilarious statement 

considering 2 moves and she was out of the game. just 2...


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## Stermor (Sep 2, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> War arc kiba
> Sasuke rescue arc gaara
> War arc kankuro
> war arc temari
> ...



war arc kiba is plenty.. pre skip kiba can dent rashomons.. war arc can just run through them easily.. 
sasuke rescue arc gaara will kill them, barring a genjutsu from tayuya, but considering the hole load of trouble shikemaru had it is quite unlikely.. 
war arc kankuro summons 4 puppets stonger then the sound four and kills them.. 
war arc temari swings her fan.. pre skip temari has shown more power then any of the sound 4 has.. so one swing is enough.. 
war arc neji makes then fodder.
haku loses.. ice mirror won't last long eonugh to kill all. especially wit the defense from jirobo.
war arc chouji casually steps on them.. 
vote p1 sasuke kills a couple then get taken down. 
shikemaru easily captures them and kills them.


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## Icegaze (Sep 2, 2015)

Stermor said:


> war arc kiba is plenty.. pre skip kiba can dent rashomons.. war arc can just run through them easily..
> sasuke rescue arc gaara will kill them, barring a genjutsu from tayuya, but considering the hole load of trouble shikemaru had it is quite unlikely..
> war arc kankuro summons 4 puppets stonger then the sound four and kills them..
> war arc temari swings her fan.. pre skip temari has shown more power then any of the sound 4 has.. so one swing is enough..
> ...



pre skip kiba lost against 1 of them . war arc kiba gets to fight all 4. nothing suggests he has gotten more than 4 times stronger

shikamaru is much smarter than gaara though and knows how to break genjutsu. nothing implies gaara knows how to 

what 4 puppets does war arc kankuro have that are stronger than the 4? yes scorpion puppet. what else?

u didn't explain how war arc neji makes them fodder though

war arc chouji can still be 1 shotted by cs2 sakon. he wont know that he cant get touched

shikamaru might be able to he does have tricks up his sleeve. though all 4 vs 1...makes it unlikely 

unless shikamaru>>genma and raido something I doubt


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## Tarot (Sep 2, 2015)

I think some people tend to not notice that the series uses different parameters for rankings than what we like to imagine in the battledome. In the series, ninja ranks are correlated to how well suited you are to taking on higher level missions. In the BD, people correlate it to level of opponents you can fight against. It really just depends on what standard you're using. In terms of skill, I'm quite confident that Part II Lee can fight on the same level as most others in the high jonin rank, but I don't think he's well suited to lead others during a sensitive mission, and for that reason he probably not suitable to be promoted to jonin. However if I use BD rankings, he's a mid-high jonin tier fighter. 
That being said, I do think people are underrating the Part II K12. Naruto spent years training under a sanin, ambushed Deidara, reacted to Chiyo, and was rivals with Sai (a trusted member of the ANBU) even before his Wind style training (Where Kakashi says he surpassed him). Same with Sakura who managed to survive against Sasori, and S-ranked akatsuki, and even outright impress him and Chiyo a few times. Those are not feats to expect from the basic chunin rank.

OT: They can beat Shikamaru, SRA Sasuke, Haku, Neji, Kiba, maybe SRA Gaara.


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## Matty (Sep 2, 2015)

^ I think it's safe to say @DeathArcana that Sakura and Naruto are really exceptions. They were just destined for greatness. As much as people trash Sakura, she was more talented than the rest of the K12 aside from Sauce and Naruto. Maybe she wasn't the most skilled fighter but her expertise in Medical fields and super human strength certainly puts her above most. 

I don't really find the rest to be that impressive besides Shikamaru but with him it's really just his tactical genius. If Shikamaru takes on the people Naruto or Sakura does he gets wasted in 2 seconds


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## The Undying (Sep 2, 2015)

The thing is, Chuunin is said to representative of the _average_ mid-level shinobi combatant. They were never intended to be these lowly peons just because we've seen some unnamed characters portrayed as fodder against Jounin and Kage-levels, and they're certainly not automatically exempt from impressive feats or techniques simply because they aren't Jounin-level ninja.

Besides, a lot of official materials have already confirmed that Jounin are supposed to possess well-rounded skills in most of the ninja arts, which is not exactly a bill that Rock Lee fits despite his incredible speed and Taijutsu ability.


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## Tarot (Sep 3, 2015)

Among the K11, I feel that some do excel enough to be above the average chunin tier bar Naruto and Sakura. Shikamaru, Choji, Lee, and Shino come off as above the average crop of ninja. I'm aware that Jonin are elite, but I'm not sure if it's *that* exclusive as the elder Ina-Shika-Cho as well as Shino's father were all jonin and yet they seem to rely on the same fighting style as their kids. I think that they at least belong in the special jonin tier. 

Although I am curious how people measure the requisites of the Sp.Jonin class compared to the chunin class.


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## The Undying (Sep 3, 2015)

I partially agree. Lee and Chouji excel due to forbidden power-ups, which I don't think is included in the ranking system if Dai is anything to go by. Rank doesn't account for what can't be consistently utilized under someone's base arsenal, it would seem.

I just think that some people are heavily underestimating what the average Chuunin is capable of, particularly when you consider the inclination of clans in passing down special techniques, how much they comprise Konoha's military strength, how strict the Chuunin exams were shown to be, and many individual feats from combatants like Izumo and Kotetsu or even clan fodder during the war. The series has made it obvious that most people in this rank can do much more than just toss kunai knives around and execute basic Ninjutsu, and given the overall routines of Konoha's clans, it's perfectly feasible that most Chuunin go on to specialize in something regardless of whether they're ever considered for promotion.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 3, 2015)

Lets see .. Genma and Raido, two Tokubetsu Jounin, pushed the Sound 4 into their CS2 forms and left them exhausted.

I'd say any of these Mid Jounin levels are about as strong, some even stronger, than Genma and Raido fighting together as a team.



> War arc kiba



Kiba should be able to successfully blitz all of them. He has a 4.5 in speed, which is augmented further when he takes soldier pills, and then uses the Four Legs Technique. Actually, Kiba has the potential to be a very fast fighter. Even if, by some miracle, they are fast enough to avoid Kiba and Akamaru's regular taijutsu, once they pull out the Three-Headed Wolf, the match is over. 

Kiba wins, mid difficulty at most.



> Sasuke rescue arc gaara



Summons a giant wave of sand an buries them all under it. Gaara could threaten Kimimaro in combat, who was already above all of the Sound 4 put together. Imo SRA Gaara was already Elite Jounin in level, so he demolishes the Sound 4.



> War arc kankuro



He has 4 puppets, one for each member of the Sound 4. Between their swift poison projectiles, and poison bombs and explosives, the Sound 4 don't stand much of a chance here. Even in CS2, their speed and resilience isn't great enough to retaliate Kankuro's crowd control abilities. 



> war arc temari



Quickly solos all four of them with a wide AOE, steel-cutting Kamataichi.



> War arc neji



The Sound 4 attack Neji in CQC, and he quickly demolishes them with strikes to their vital organs. As they're coughing up blood and dying, he finishes them off.



> haku



Haku isn't Jounin-level, so he dies a horrible, bloody death.



> war arc chouji



Turns giant and body slams the Sound 4, quickly ending the match.



> Vote P1 sasuke



Is stronger than the likes of Kiba, Kankuro and Temari, so he should have no problem defeating the Sound 4. His speed with the Raikiri is likely enough to kill them off one by one, and he is certainly faster than any of the CS2 Sound 4.



> war arc shikamaru



Catches all four of them in a Shadow Neck Binding, and his stamina has improved enough from Part I to kill them even if they do activate CS2.
​​


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