# Pain/Sasori vs Sannin



## Matty (May 6, 2015)

Area: Gaara vs Kimimaro
Intel: None
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: Edo Tensei, Chibaku Tensei
Distance: 50 meters

This is 6 paths of pain. Sasori starts with 3rd kazekage out.


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## UchihaX28 (May 6, 2015)

I'm honestly not sure. I'm certain Nagato would resort to using all of the Paths of Pain considering he's up against the 3 Legendary Sannin, same as Sasori as Sasori has knowledge on Orochimaru's capabilities and should at least resort to Iron Sand taking into consideration that he's up against all 3 of them as well.

 I would Team 1 takes this comfortably. Tsunade and Orochimaru really have nothing that can counter Bansho Tenin or Shinra Tensei with a full-on onslaught of Asura Path's missiles while Animal Path has Cerberus that constantly regenerates (which takes advantage of Asura Path's offensive power) and can easily pressure Orochimaru and Jiraiya's summons.

 From there, Sasori can easily gather a massive amount of Iron Sand which alone, should be enough to take down Base Jiraiya and Tsunade before Jiraiya can even utilize Sage Mode.

 Hydra is easily wiped out by Iron Sand, Cerberus, Asura Path, and a Boss-Sized Shinra Tensei if Orochimaru even resorts to Hydra.

 What hurts even more is that unexpected toxins cannot effect Sasori or Pain due to Sasori's puppet body and the Path's being corpses.

 I don't see the Sannin making it out here alive.


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## FlamingRain (May 7, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I'm certain Nagato would resort to using all of the Paths of Pain considering he's up against the 3 Legendary Sannin, same as Sasori as Sasori has knowledge on Orochimaru's capabilities and should at least resort to Iron Sand taking into consideration that he's up against all 3 of them as well.



Intel is none, though.


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Intel is none, though.



 I was assuming that was based on their techniques.

 If there's no intel on even their prestige, then Nagato can still resort to sensing to determine the threat of their target.


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## FlamingRain (May 7, 2015)

I always took no intel to mean you didn't recognize who it was you were fighting but might still recognize abilities.

Like how Tsunade had no intel on _Kabuto_ but knew what the _Chakra Scalpels_ were when she saw _them_, Jiraiya went looking for Pain without intel _on him_ but recognized the _Rinnegan_ when he saw _it_, etc.


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## UchihaX28 (May 7, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I always took no intel to mean you didn't recognize who it was you were fighting but might still recognize abilities.
> 
> Like how Tsunade had no intel on Kabuto but knew what the Chakra Scalpels were when she saw them, Jiraiya went looking for Pain without intel but recognized the Rinnegan when he saw it, etc.



 That makes sense.

 I'm not sure if I feel compelled to change my position, but the Sannin certainly have more intel if that's truly what the OP implied.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

The Sanin should win 
Jiriaya has more than enough time to get to SM 

Tsunade is a solid counter to sasori . Poison breaks down the body , through internal bleeding and what not she heals all that and kills him . 

It's tjen 3 vs 6 

The Sanin win mid diff at best .

Not many ninja have any counter to bansho+ soul rip

Orochimadu does though . He uses oral rebirth to escape 

I really don't think Sasori can stand up to tsunade who would have no issue summoning katsuyu .


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## Legendary Itachi (May 7, 2015)

Chibaku Tensei always ends the match, and not even sure if they can push Pain that far when it takes a shit load of effort for the village to fully understands Pain's abilities.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Chibaku Tensei always ends the match, and not even sure if they can push Pain that far when it takes a shit load of effort for the village to fully understands Pain's abilities.



its restricted though 
reading skills much 

yes for the village where 99% of them are horribly inferior to the sanin

only kakashi at that time in the village was remotely comparable

1000 fodder are nothing to an actual ninja


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## Legendary Itachi (May 7, 2015)

My bad. 

But my point still stands, they gonna have a big terrible time against Pain without any knowledge. Things may change though if Oro is supposed to have full knowledge on Rinnegan here, still Pain has more options to end the Sannin than the Sannin have and Sasori alone can give either one of them a tough match.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Legendary Itachi said:


> My bad.
> 
> But my point still stands, they gonna have a big terrible time against Pain without any knowledge. Things may change though if Oro is supposed to have full knowledge on Rinnegan here, still Pain has more options to end the Sannin than the Sannin have and Sasori alone can give either one of them a tough match.



without CT your point falls appart actually 

no knowledge when fighting 3 sannin isnt enough to guarantee a win 

when 2 things have been implied

with knowledge jiraiya could have won
and 2 paths of pain were needed to take on kakashi. Nagato felt so 

also Ct and powerful ST can only be used when the other paths are down 

pain vs sannin alone is hardly a match. its a stomp in the sannin favor a horrible one. 
again CT and powerful ST can only be used when its deva left on the field. doubt he would have the time to pull off CT when 3 sannin are facing him 

sasori gets taken out by tsunade he cant do anything against her

he a victim. or at worst jiriaya takes him out


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## Turrin (May 7, 2015)

I'll assume this is Tsunade with War-Arc Byakugo, to avoid the 2.5 Year speculation. If so the match is very dangerous. We know a single Sannin can't take Pain, so it will require 2 Sannin and even than there is the danger of CST & GM if it's pulled out. That also leaves Sasori against 1 Sannin w/ no intel of his poison. On the plus side the match starts at 50m, and even w/o direct intel the Sannin seeing 7 Akatsuki Cloaked figures will likely opt for a defensive strategy and told at least give Jiraiya time to reach SM. So than SM-Jiraiya could potentially beat Sasori even w/o knowledge, if he matches up against him, though he may also loose, depending on how the match plays out; Orochimaru if his poison immune could also take Sasori 1v1, though if he's not immune he's going down. Tsunade is the one who really stands no chance against Sasori. 

So the most beneficial circumstances for the Sannin would be Orochimaru being immune and defeating Sasori eventually, while SM-Jiraiya and Tsunade face off against Pain. Those two can beat Pain if GM doesn't come out.

In the worst case scenario Tsunade or non-poison immune Orochimaru goes up against Sasori, and looses quickly, and than it's Pain and Sasori vs SM-Jiriaya and Orochimaru, which they loose. 

Middle of the road scenario would be SM-Jiraiya vs Sasori, while Orochimaru + Tsunade vs Pain. SM-Jiriaya has better odds overall at winning against Sasori, while Orochimaru and Tsunade should be able to hold out against Pain for that long, than it's the Three Sannin vs Pain, which they win. Albeit if Sasori beats SM-J-man, than they probably loose. 

So while this is actually quite a close match, I lean towards the Sannin having slightly better odds overall. It's quite hard to make up the difference of an entire extra Kage-Class fighter on one team.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

Why would byakuyo not heal poison . Read up on poison in the manga and what it does 
Also read up on what actual poison does in the real world 
Then tell me why the ability to regenerate not heal but regenerate organs won't laugh away sasori 1 thing that makes him a threat 

Tsunade low diffs sasori



Sasori poison breaks down muscle tissue . Tsunade regens muscle tissue 

Something that takes 3 days to kill a normal person who isn't healing isn't killing Tsunade mid fight while she is healing 

Also from the entry it seems oral rebirth should have no issue escaping the technique . It breaks down muscle tissue Oro uses his soft body modification cjakra to move his body . Doubtful it even stops him


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## LostSelf (May 7, 2015)

Good thing you restricted CT. OTherwise we would be seeing the core being destroyed even by Jiraiya's hair .

OT: Even with no knowledge, Pain is a bit outmatched here. They are three. 

Edit: Forgot Sasori. Then it depends. Pain can kill Jiraiya with a powerful Shinra Tensei. Also, Deva Path managed to pull SM Naruto's with a more powerful BT and the guy didn't even react. If he replicates the same thing here and Human soul rips, Sasori entertaining one, Akatsuki would win more times than not.


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## Icegaze (May 7, 2015)

@lostself 
Maybe the hair can just crush it 
It's got pipe denting strength


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## LostSelf (May 7, 2015)

Or Tsunade throw a rock on it, or Orochimaru destroy it with Kusanagi. The thing is the core is featless and anybody with a range jutsu can destroy it .


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## Joakim3 (May 8, 2015)

This has been done countless times... even with CT restricted. The _Pein Rikudo_ solo, Tsunade is personally foddered by Tendo, while Jiraiya & Orochimaru have the living life stomped out of them via the other 5 paths.

If all else fails (which it won't) Nagato summons Gedo Mazo and it's GG from there

Nagato having Sasori of all people as back up in a no-knowledge match makes this fight completely one sided


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## FlamingRain (May 9, 2015)

A single Sannin would give Pain _a_ _hard_ _enough_ _time_ by themselves, _two_ _ought to win_. He most definitely will *not* solo all three.

Adding one more Akatsuki member to Pain's side would only be likely to tip the scales into his favor if it was another of the dōjutsu users, as the Sannin have been repeatedly suggested to be in a tier ahead of the the "normals" of the Akatsuki.

Jiraiya took care of Konan in a few seconds and would have done the same to Kisame (who himself admitted that he was out of his league prior) had it not been for Itachi. Karin berated Sasuke for having so much difficulty against Deidara and Sasuke's response was attributing Orochimaru's defeat to the white snake having already been weakened as opposed to saying that Deidara was simply that strong (it being pre-hebi vs hebi is irrelevant because Sasuke never used any of the powers he gained after absorbing Orochimaru in that fight).

Sasori _is_ said to probably be stronger than Deidara, but considering that Orochimaru intended to just kill him when he showed up at the Tenchi Bridge it's doubtful that he's so much stronger that it's going to take more than one Sannin to deal with him (at the very least until the other two beat Pain).

Akatsuki most likely winds up dead.


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## Lawrence777 (May 9, 2015)

By Jiraiya's own admission[1], Pain was going to beat him with three bodies and forced him to retreat and prepare Magen Gama Rinshō. This was SM Jiraiya, and Deva Path was absent.

additionally, I don't think the other two present as much a threat to Pain as Jiraiya had SM to further enhance his power, which the other two sannin don't.

So there's another way in which to view this really. 3bodies were roughly = SM Jiraiya( = being conservative, given they forced him to retreat) and neither orochimaru nor Tsunade have SM to rival the power of three bodies.

I don't believe Orochimaru and Tsunade are superior to the general akatsuki level off of just hype. Deidara considered himself to be able to kill Orochimaru and nobody in akatsuki uttered anything to the contrary or implied he was out of his league. Sasori was acknowledged as the stronger of the two between him and Deidara. And those two aren't so much stronger than Kisame/Kakuzu to believe the potential to kill Orochimaru changes.

When Deva Path came online, he basically twoshot SM Naruto with BT and in general was ragdolling Naruto, and Naruto's decisively stronger than 2/3 the sannin. Pain can out-summon them as well if they choose to go that route. I think 6 paths are enough to beat 2 sannin handily, and sasori's battle with the third can go either way although again, even if he loses, without knowledge it'll be likely he's grazed them with poison and forced a draw(although Tsunade maybe immune).

I'd be more inclined to think the Sannin could win if Jiraiya started in SM, but he starts base here. SM wouldn't guarantee victory but It'd be closer imo.  

There's just not going to be anytime for Jiraiya to reach SM imo, whomever's fighting Pain is going to get absolutely demolished via banshou tennin combinations. Like, SM-Naruto level demolished, except worse. That's probably one of the worse techniques in the manga to lack knowledge on.


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## Turrin (May 9, 2015)

3 bodies aren't equal to SM-Jiriaya as he directly beat 3 Bodies, and than went on to beat 4th, while all 6 were out and he was down 1 arm, and this was before SM retcons like Frog Katas and SM Danger Sensing. I'd say short of Deva-Path, SM-Jiriaya can beat Pain-Rikudo with a huge amount of difficulty. With Deva Path he's certainly weaker though. As far as soloing two Sannin goes, Jiriaya and Orochimaru lack a counter to CST, so those 2 can be defeated with that. Jiriaya or Orochi + Tsunade can though with Katsuya + Sousou Saisei would allow them to survive. So depending on the combination or if up against all 3 CST, can be dealt with. GM is more difficult, but I believe any combo of two Sannin can repel GM with a considerable amount of effort, however depending on what the other paths can do while Nagato is focused on controlling GM the 2 Sannin or even 3 Sannin may still loose. CT is the real bitch here though as the Sannin have no demonstrated a Long-Range Technique powerful enough to deal with the Core, though perhaps Orochimaru or Jiraiya have a powerful Jutsu that could get them there, and w/ Tsunade boosting perhaps they could still pull it out in a unified front. 

This is of course excluding Edo-Tensei and 2.5 Years Byakugo, which allow them to steamroll Pain.


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## Lawrence777 (May 9, 2015)

Jiraiya did end up working them into a disadvantageous position by forcing them to be offensive(due to toad genjutsu ) rather than being defensive. Had there been no toad genjutsu, and they maintained their defensive posturing as they were, I fully believe Jiraiya's statement that he would of lost.

Jiraiya never demonstrated those, and we have no idea how proficient he is with them or whether he'd even use them IC given he never used them against Pain when he battle'd against him. And he had a perfect opportunity during that melee with preta and human.

Pain doesn't need CST or CT or GM(He never used Bijuu-powered GM as a summon in canon either, so I don't really consider it part of his arsenal).

Pain can fodderize them the way he did Naruto with BT, while negating jutsu with preta and applying pressure via asura and animal.
SM Naruto vs BT [1] [2]
Going for the kill here and not capture as with naruto, he pulls them into head laser or missiles or a ram summon. I see no reason to believe any combination of only 2 sannin can beat Pain conventionally without his nukes. 

Preta alone makes half of Jiraiya's arsenal useless. Cereberus and the numerous other summons overwhelm there summons as well. Without Knowledge, Pain is going to be reviving bodies also until they figure it out and by that time are not fresh(while Pain will still be fresh).

Again, if Jiraiya started in SM I believe a case could be made but even then Pain'd probably still beat a duo of SM Jiraiya and 1 other sannin.

Here with starting in base, I see no reason to believe any 2 of them are going to beat all the 6 paths of Pain though? Why would that be the case?

Edo tensei is restricted in OP. Byakugo's okay but I don't really see what Tsunade's going to do to Pain tbh. Her whole arsenal is based off taijutsu and Pain has BT as well as ST. That's basically Jiraiya's situation of having much of his arsenal negated by preta path.


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## FlamingRain (May 9, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> By Jiraiya's own admission[1], Pain was going to beat him with three bodies and forced him to retreat and prepare Magen Gama Rinshō. This was SM Jiraiya, and Deva Path was absent.



The question is which way is the right way.

Keep in mind the _"this is going from bad to worse"_ and _"if I keep fighting like this"_ parts of Jiraiya's statements.

At that point Jiraiya still hadn't even figured out for sure that each path only had one ability (he only ever confirmed that in the pipes), so he was saying it might keep getting worse and if _that_ kept happening he'd be killed. But we know what those three Paths can do and we know what Jiraiya can do now; he's demonstrated the ability necessary to defeat those paths even before casting Gamarinshō.

Besides that, Jiraiya coming up with a plan to fight the paths is _still_ Jiraiya fighting the paths (it's not like he had to go grab some extra materials he doesn't always have on him that elevate his level), so it hardly does anything to discredit Akatsuki's own sentiments about how Pain _was_ having a hard time dealing with Jiraiya, _who after all had a reputation as one of the Sannin_.

With one arm and the sage toads' throats sore he was able to dance with all six paths for a bit, and at some point even slip away again. Had the remaining paths happened to be revealed _before_ Gamarinshō was employed he could have caught them _all_ in the technique. While _that specifically_ may not apply to the other two Sannin, Pain just having a hard time handling them still should.



> Jiraiya had SM to further enhance his power, which the other two sannin don't.



Jiraiya isn't the only member of the Sannin that can enhance his power, though.

The other two Sannin may not have Sage Mode specifically, but they _do_ have their own unique ascensions, and one might say that Jiraiya's being more drastic only serves to make up for the fact that he actually has to find the chance to remain still in order to bide for it while both of his contemporaries can go straight to their peak performances as soon as they please. I'd much sooner go with the interpretation that leads to the fewest inconsistencies with what we've already been told so often from multiple sources that one can't help but feel a general point is being hammered home.

I mean the _"only a Sannin can beat a Sannin"_ maxim we first heard from Ebisu before it was basically repeated in the databook implies equality, the fan book says Tsunade is every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru which requires that Jiraiya and Orochimaru themselves be a match for each other, the three-way-deadlock theme implies it and the Sannin's interactions throughout the Search for Tsunade Arc were consistent with that even when mutually handicapped, and after Jiraiya repelled the ram and emerged from the tunnel Nagato _thought about Orochimaru_ and Jiraiya then figured _all three_ of the Sannin must have their own unique skills as if he just threw Tsunade in there for good measure because it's already known that they're of the same caliber.

They're supposed to be on equal footing with each other, and Pain wouldn't have beaten two Jiraiyas at once. That's why Tsunade offered to go back Jiraiya up and why she said that had Orochimaru changed sooner Jiraiya would still be alive (even though she should have known all of what Pain was capable of through Katsuyu at that point).



> I don't believe Orochimaru and Tsunade are superior to the general akatsuki level off of just hype. Deidara considered himself to be able to kill Orochimaru and nobody in akatsuki uttered anything to the contrary or implied he was out of his league. Sasori was acknowledged as the stronger of the two between him and Deidara. And those two aren't so much stronger than Kisame/Kakuzu to believe the potential to kill Orochimaru changes.



Speaking in terms of the general/overall threat they present what applies to Jiraiya can be transitively extended to the other two Sannin. If you don't think Deidara and Sasori are so much stronger than Kisame then it stands to reason that the Sannin are superior to them, too.

Like I said in my previous post, Sasuke defeated Deidara without relying on the powers he gained from absorbing Orochimaru yet when criticized for the trouble he had explained that he beat Orochimaru because he was already weakened as opposed to pointing out that Deidara was just that powerful.

Deidara also thought he'd be able to kill Itachi, another one of the people Kisame indicates is in a different league...doesn't mean it would have actually worked out for him.

Orochimaru was already dead at that point, the first time Deidara said he wanted to kill him he was just complaining and the second time it was brought up Deidara left immediately. There'd be like no point in contesting him.


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## UchihaX28 (May 9, 2015)

Yeah, Jiraiya certainly isn't the only one with enhanced power.

 In my post, I literally forgot the take into account a hypothetical Sage Mode Orochimaru which should be possible due to having Zetsu's Cells and Kabuto's knowledge of performing Sage Mode.


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## Joakim3 (May 9, 2015)

Turrin said:


> *3 bodies aren't equal to SM-Jiriaya as he directly beat 3 Bodies,*.



Jiraiya, Shima & Fukusaku flat out stated Jiraiya was going to die if he _continued to fight against_ Chikushodo, Ningendo & Gakido.

Jiraiya had to retreat (a sign of inferiority) in order to ambush the paths and take advantage of Nagato's lack of knowledge on his genjutsu, something he wouldn't have been able to pull off had it not been in Ame

With current manga knowledge and _this_ location, those 3 paths would borderline _stomp_ SM Jiraiya 


Secondly... Tsunade  & Orochimaru does not make up for then presence of Tendo backed up with Jigukudo & Shurado's


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## Nikushimi (May 9, 2015)

Pain could damn near solo even with Chibaku Tensei restricted.

The addition of Sasori is gonna be overkill.


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## Lawrence777 (May 10, 2015)

@FlamingRain


> Keep in mind the "this is going from bad to worse" and "if I keep fighting like this" parts of Jiraiya's statements.
> 
> At that point Jiraiya still hadn't even figured out for sure that each path only had one ability (he only ever confirmed that in the pipes), so he was saying it might keep getting worse and if that kept happening he'd be killed. But we know what those three Paths can do and we know what Jiraiya can do now; he's demonstrated the ability necessary to defeat those paths even before casting Gamarinshō.
> 
> Besides that, Jiraiya coming up with a plan to fight the paths is still Jiraiya fighting the paths (it's not like he had to go grab some extra materials he doesn't always have on him that elevate his level), so it hardly does anything to discredit Akatsuki's own sentiments about how Pain was having a hard time dealing with Jiraiya, who after all had a reputation as one of the Sannin.


 I agree Jiraiya beat them, but the toad genjutsu played a key role. Because until then, the paths had been reactive. Jiraiya uses ninjutsu, they react with preta. Jiraiya goes for cqc, they react with summons and shared vision. They rarely took the offensive and had been defensive. 

The toad genjutsu counting down to K.O. forced them to haphazardly rush Jiraiya and get fodderized in Jiraiya's hallway of traps. I'd have to maintain though, without that long range genjutsu changing the dynamic of the battle, if the Pains had just stuck to being reactive they would of beat Jiraiya.



> With one arm and the sage toads' throats sore he was able to dance with all six paths for a bit, and at some point even slip away again. Had the remaining paths happened to be revealed before Gamarinshō was employed he could have caught them all in the technique. While that specifically may not apply to the other two Sannin, Pain just having a hard time handling them still should.


Well I'm not sure that's fair because it happened off panel and Pain was fresh while Jiraiya was on his last at that point. I don't think he would of been able to fight all six using their abilities in that condition(could he even use ninjutsu with 1 arm?). Concerning them all being present, Deva path would probably make Jiraiya's attempt to run away futile. Or if he was in the hallway, he could of just blown the whole thing down and interrupt the genjutsu with shinra tensei. Deva being there could of changed that entire scenario so I wouldn't hastily say they'd all get K.O'd.



> Jiraiya isn't the only member of the Sannin that can enhance his power, though.
> 
> The other two Sannin may not have Sage Mode specifically, but they do have their own unique ascensions, and one might say that Jiraiya's being more drastic only serves to make up for the fact that he actually has to find the chance to remain still in order to bide for it while both of his contemporaries can go straight to their peak performances as soon as they please. I'd much sooner go with the interpretation that leads to the fewest inconsistencies with what we've already been told so often from multiple sources that one can't help but feel a general point is being hammered home.


Sage Mode's more hyped than either of the possible ascensions the other sannin have. I don't believe Orochimaru has an 'ascension' outside of ET, and that doesn't seem like something he'd always use IC anyway(never mind it being restricted here). I don't think Byakugo's as good or multifaceted as SM either and besides, kishi hasn't hyped them to nearly the same degree. As an example, towards the end of the manga last 15~ or so chapters almost every top tier had some degree of sage chakra augmenting their performance.



> I mean the "only a Sannin can beat a Sannin" maxim we first heard from Ebisu before it was basically repeated in the databook implies equality, the fan book says Tsunade is every bit a match for Jiraiya and Orochimaru which requires that Jiraiya and Orochimaru themselves be a match for each other, the three-way-deadlock theme implies it and the Sannin's interactions throughout the Search for Tsunade Arc were consistent with that even when mutually handicapped, and after Jiraiya repelled the ram and emerged from the tunnel Nagato thought about Orochimaru and Jiraiya then figured all three of the Sannin must have their own unique skills as if he just threw Tsunade in there for good measure because it's already known that they're of the same caliber.
> 
> 
> They're supposed to be on equal footing with each other, and Pain wouldn't have beaten two Jiraiyas at once. That's why Tsunade offered to go back Jiraiya up and why she said that had Orochimaru changed sooner Jiraiya would still be alive (even though she should have known all of what Pain was capable of through Katsuyu at that point).



I do believe they're roughly equal outside of SM in their own ways. Tsunade's jutsu reservoir and area of expertise is more supportive focused than combat focused for instance. Orochimaru would of been equal had he actually learned SM as he was going to(probably even a better match for Pain given his lack of reliance on elemental jutsu contrary to Jiraiya), but he couldn't do that. So the acquisition of SM pulled Jiraiya ahead and makes the comparison of fighting 2 Jiraiya's not really the same imo.



> Speaking in terms of the general/overall threat they present what applies to Jiraiya can be transitively extended to the other two Sannin.


Would you feel the same way about this though with respect to how Itachi treated Orochimaru? You could say Jiraiya maybe was portrayed differently and rationalize that it maybe due to SM. If SM's accounted for, then that hype doesn't extend to the other two sannin.



> Like I said in my previous post, Sasuke defeated Deidara without relying on the powers he gained from absorbing Orochimaru yet when criticized for the trouble he had explained that he beat Orochimaru because he was already weakened as opposed to pointing out that Deidara was just that powerful.


I think Orochimaru's powers were actually quite pertinent to Sasuke defeating Deidara. His physique was enhanced by white snake powers, he also had cursed seal (Orochimaru's ghetto SM), and he used snake hands. Sasuke's DB entry refers to some of these things. Hebi Sasuke stands a good chance of beating sannin and most akatsuki in his own right anyway, he's far from a slouch.




> Deidara also thought he'd be able to kill Itachi, another one of the people Kisame indicates is in a different league...doesn't mean it would have actually worked out for him.
> 
> Orochimaru was already dead at that point, the first time Deidara said he wanted to kill him he was just complaining and the second time it was brought up Deidara left immediately. There'd be like no point in contesting him.


This is a fair but I maintain my position on the other points.


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## Bonly (May 10, 2015)

I'd say this depends how Nagato uses all six paths of pain when fighting because with all six paths he has some pretty broken combos he can do and with Sasori as backup(with no knowledge) he's dangerous for Jiraiya(and possibly Orochi depending on poison immunity), the Sannin are gonna have a tough fight here. I'd slightly favor Team Akatsuki to pull out the win more times then thanks to their potential but this could go either way really


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

@Lawrence

I'm not sure if there's anything in the manga more clear than the equality of the Sannin. There are so many statements that refer to them as equals, so I can't fathom why anyone would attempt to argue it isn't true. Flamey listed the majority of them in his post, and you can't just go against those because Jiraiya looked the most impressive. That should have been the case given that he's the _only one_ of the three who got a climactic fight. Orochimaru was either jobbing or ill in all of his bouts, and Tsunade fought as part of a hopelessly outclassed team against King Jobber himself.

Oh, and while you're right about Senjutsu being above the likes of Byakugo or Yama no Orochi, its drawback cannot be ignored. Orochimaru & Tsunade can power up in a few seconds, but Jiraiya has to perform a time-consuming ritual that creates one big opening for any opponent. Had Nagato had the proper knowledge, Jiraiya wouldn't have had opportunity to actually enter Sage Mode and would have gotten ripped apart.


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## Lawrence777 (May 10, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Lawrence
> 
> I'm not sure if there's anything in the manga more clear than the equality of the Sannin. There are so many statements that refer to them as equals, so I can't fathom why anyone would attempt to argue it isn't true. Flamey listed the majority of them in his post, and you can't just go against those because Jiraiya looked the most impressive. That should have been the case given that he's the _only one_ of the three who got a climactic fight. Orochimaru was either jobbing or ill in all of his bouts, and Tsunade fought as part of a hopelessly outclassed team against King Jobber himself.


I do believe in the sannin equality hype Rocky,  atleast to a certain extent; I've had long posts on the matter. And I'm not (entirely  ) going against the hype because Jiraiya looked the most impressive. To the contrary actually, I was just refuting Flame's point with a simple similar stance.  

Flame said:


> Speaking in terms of the general/overall threat they present what applies to Jiraiya can be transitively extended to the other two Sannin.


And I said:



> Would you feel the same way about this though with respect to how Itachi treated Orochimaru? You could say Jiraiya maybe was portrayed differently and rationalize that it maybe due to SM. If SM's accounted for, then that hype doesn't extend to the other two sannin.



I figure, if were going to believe in the sannin hype it can't extend when it's positive yet not extend when it's negative. So I agree with you, it has to be all or nothing, it can't just be used situationally(to, in this specific case, suggest any sannin > sasori). 

Also though, it can make sense to a certain extent SM Jiraiya would be > Orochimaru, because otherwise if they were equal(SM Jiraiya =  hypothetical Base Orochimaru) it'd mean SM Jiraiya < SM Orochimaru wouldn't it? Food for thought but this is a secondary point.



Rocky said:


> Oh, and while you're right about Senjutsu being above the likes of Byakugo or Yama no Orochi, its drawback cannot be ignored. Orochimaru & Tsunade can power up in a few seconds, but Jiraiya has to perform a time-consuming ritual that creates one big opening for any opponent. Had Nagato had the proper knowledge, Jiraiya wouldn't have had opportunity to actually enter Sage Mode and would have gotten ripped apart.


 Plenty of SM user's enter SM almost instantly, Jiraiya just isn't a master of it. Granted though, if he starts in SM as is sometimes  stipulated the entry period doesn't really matter and thus he incurs no disadvantageous. But in practicality all things being fair yeah I agree it comes at a disadvantage(for Jiraiya)


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## Rocky (May 10, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Would you feel the same way about this though with respect to how Itachi treated Orochimaru?



Itachi plays in the same ballpark as the Sannin do. Kind of. In my tier list he's a lower High Kage while the Sannin are the stronger Mid Kages. Itachi is definitely stronger, but not to the point that he stomps them. We've seen very little of the interactions Itachi and Orochimaru had, but when you take into consideration that they recognized each other's trump cards, it's safe to say that they're close to each other than chapter 345 may indicate. 



> I figure, if were going to believe in the sannin hype it can't extend when it's positive yet not extend when it's negative. So I agree with you, it has to be all or nothing, it can't just be used situationally(to, in this specific case, suggest any sannin > sasori).



I think his point was that Sasori doesn't compete on their tier to begin with (though that's debatable), so it really doesn't matter which Sannin fights him. 

FlamingRain pretty much went all portrayal on this one.



> Also though, it can make sense to a certain extent SM Jiraiya would be > Orochimaru, because otherwise if they were equal(SM Jiraiya =  hypothetical Base Orochimaru) it'd mean SM Jiraiya < SM Orochimaru wouldn't it? Food for thought but this is a secondary point.



Jiraiya = Orochimaru.

Sage Jiraiya in generally better than Orochimaru (so yes, SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru), but reaching Sage Mode isn't a given in some scenarios. Match ups are key.

For example, A's likely to lose to Orochimaru imo. However, he's likely to beat (base) Jiraiya who probably wouldn't have an opening to enter Sage Mode, and it can go either way between him and Tsunade. If Jiraiya started in Sage Mode then he'd have a much better shot against A, but I don't think that should translate to Jiraiya > A because it ignores an important detail.



> Plenty of SM user's enter SM almost instantly, Jiraiya just isn't a master of it. Granted though, if he starts in SM as is sometimes  stipulated the entry period doesn't really matter and thus he incurs no disadvantageous. But in practicality all things being fair yeah I agree it comes at a disadvantage(for Jiraiya)



Jiraiya not being a master at Sage Mode should factor into his overall strength. 

"J-man starts in SM" isn't something exists in the manga. The Sannin are equal in the context of the manga, which doesn't take into account Battledome thread stipulations.


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## Lawrence777 (May 10, 2015)

> Itachi plays in the same ballpark as the Sannin do. Kind of. In my tier list he's a lower High Kage while the Sannin are the stronger Mid Kages. Itachi is definitely stronger, but not to the point that he stomps them. We've seen very little of the interactions Itachi and Orochimaru had, but when you take into consideration that they recognized each other's trump cards, it's safe to say that they're close to each other than chapter 345 may indicate.


 I can agree with this assessment. It's not so far away from my own that I'd conflate the issue by debating it.



> I think his point was that Sasori doesn't compete on their tier to begin with (_though that's debatable_), so it really doesn't matter which Sannin fights him.
> 
> FlamingRain pretty much went all portrayal on this one.


 Yeah Rocky, the italicized was my  goal post  with respect to the specific argument of any of the sannin beating sasori. I'm saying it's debatable and Sasori may win and not to count him out just out of hype. If you agree it's debatable too, that's mostly what I was working towards with FlamingRain.



> Jiraiya = Orochimaru.
> 
> Sage Jiraiya in generally better than Orochimaru (so yes, SM Jiraiya > Orochimaru), but reaching Sage Mode isn't a given in some scenarios. Match ups are key.
> 
> ...


Thing is, I'm not really in disagreeance with any of this. I've probably been the most vocal when it comes to calling out Jiraiya's starting in base here and he's screwed ITT. 

I don't view Jiraiya as above the rest either, in my mind he's with all three of the sannin but while in sm he is stronger. He may or may not get the chance to use it against every fighter but if he enters it he's a fair deal elevated. If I had a tier list I'd probably reflect that by placing two Jiraiya's on it, one with sm and one without. Placing him altogether can lead to discrepancies as you said. But honestly, were not really disagreeing here it seems as though your echoing a lot of what I've been trying to get across



> I'd be more inclined to think the Sannin could win if Jiraiya started in SM, but he starts base here. SM wouldn't guarantee victory but It'd be closer imo.
> 
> ...There's just not going to be anytime for Jiraiya to reach SM imo, whomever's fighting Pain is going to get absolutely demolished via banshou tennin combinations.





> I don't believe Orochimaru and Tsunade are superior to the general akatsuki level off of just hype


edit: I'll reply to the below sometime tonight  .


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## StickaStick (May 10, 2015)

With no intel the Sannin are probably getting plastered by a CST sooner or latter.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

Yeah, Sasori is difficult to place, for me at least. Beating the strongest Kazekage and assimilating the techniques that made him so famous should have Sasori chilling on the high end of Mid Kage, but I do feel that the Sannin were generally seen as stronger than the "regular" Akatsuki members (ie. _not_ the legendary-dojutsu wielding members with plot importance).

That said, no-knowledge poison could allow Sasori to fight outside of his tier, similar to how Kisame can fight jinchuriki. Kisame didn't find himself to be much of a match for any of the prodigal three, yet the man took down Killer B who is _easily_ Sannin-tier at the absolute minimum (and many, myself included, find B to be decisively stronger than that).

Basically, I agree with FlamingRain in that two Sannin should finish with Pain before the last Sannin finishes his/her fight with Sasori, and the other two could go on to support their teammate. That said, poison could score a quick win for Sasori, allowing him to go support Pain...so I can see this going either way. I just lead towards the Sannin because it's difficult to side with the Akatsuki when it's 3 vs. 2, even if Pain is comfortably the strongest. When factoring in their renowned teamwork, I think it is fair to give the Sannin the benefit of the doubt here.


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I agree Jiraiya beat them, but the toad genjutsu played a key role. Because until then, the paths had been reactive. Jiraiya uses ninjutsu, they react with preta. Jiraiya goes for cqc, they react with summons and shared vision. They rarely took the offensive and had been defensive.



When Jiraiya first stepped out of the tunnel Animal summoned Preta and Human after which Human charged Jiraiya, readied their Chakra rods when the Myōbokuzan trio was talking about shared vision, and they went into seek and destroy mode once Jiraiya hid in the pipes _before_ they realized he was preparing a Genjutsu.

They were attacking when Jiraiya wasn't.

Giving his location away could have been done without Gamarinshō- they didn't go "Oh no it's a one-hit KO Genjutsu we have to hurry", they went "the sound's coming from there- that's where he is".

We saw Jiraiya effectively shut them down by himself once they entered that hall- Human Realm was stuck on the ceiling, Preta was still absorbing flames, and Animal had just been smacked down the hall like a ping-pong ball. If Fukasaku and Shima weren't preoccupied with synching that Genjutsu what do you think would have happened? I think that in all likelihood Animal and Human would be crushed and solo Preta would be demolished shortly afterwards.



> Well I'm not sure that's fair because it happened off panel and Pain was fresh while Jiraiya was on his last at that point. I don't think he would of been able to fight all six using their abilities in that condition(could he even use ninjutsu with 1 arm?).



Well..._this is before_ and _this is after_.

Deva making Jiraiya's attempt to hide futile when they're all present _is exactly the opposite of what happened in canon_.

Blowing the whole hallway down was something Animal Realm could have done, but didn't.



> Sage Mode's more hyped than either of the possible ascensions the other sannin have.





> I do believe they're roughly equal outside of SM in their own ways.



I already said that Sage Mode was a more drastic power up than what the other two Sannin have access to.

However, if they're only equal outside of Sage Mode then they're not equal. The thing is that it's been suggested multiple times that they _are_ equal, even with Jiraiya being _renowned as_ the Toad _Sage of the Sannin_.

I think that Tsunade and Orochimaru are actually _superior to_ Jiraiya's _base_ form, and Jiraiya _evens that out_ by receiving the most drastic power up of the three when he's able to find the opportunity to utilize it.



> Would you feel the same way about this though with respect to how Itachi treated Orochimaru?



Yes, interpreting how Jiraiya was portrayed as "in the same competitive range that Itachi is in, which is beyond what Kisame is generally capable of hanging with".

Kisame seemed to think that the fight could swing either way. Deidara and Jiraiya both indicated that capturing somebody alive is more difficult than just killing them, too, and that might be worth considering as relevant as Jiraiya would have just been trying to kill Itachi whereas Orochimaru had been aiming to take over Itachi's body.

We only saw a snippet of Itachi and Orochimaru's first fight in a flashback, we're _not_ shown a start and finish including what was in-between. Their second clash was one between their strongest Jutsus from the outset, which wouldn't be a blowout or even reflective of the pacing of a normal fight between the two (at least not unless Itachi already knows he needs the Totsuka to take Orochimaru out).

In regards to the first fight I doubt Itachi _instantly_ caught Orochimaru in that Genjutsu, which was seemingly about to be broken in a second if Itachi hadn't severed Orochimaru's hand (which should have broken it itself, due to the pain), and just cutting off a hand isn't even close to sufficient to beat Orochimaru (as Orochimaru implied Itachi ought to already know), so I doubt that was the end of the battle either. I'd say much more happening than what was actually revealed on-panel is the best explanation for Sasuke being aware of Amaterasu despite only ever experiencing Tsukuyomi personally (Orochimaru must've told him in preparation for Itachi), Itachi being so familiar with the feeling of Yamata no Orochi, and Orochimaru expressing surprise at the presence of the Totsuka no Tsurugi but not Susano'o itself.

So I'm not one of the many that think Itachi just up and stomped Orochimaru...in base...I think he'd wind up having to use a fully-realized manifestation of Susano'o in order to actually take out Orochimaru.



> I think Orochimaru's powers were actually quite pertinent to Sasuke defeating Deidara.



Sasuke's physique was enhanced in the sense that his recovery rate had been significantly accelerated, but that was only really pertinent in regards to how short a time he needed to rest before moving out again post-fight. He never used Orochimaru's "Kawarimi" until the fight with Itachi, nor did Orochimaru ever emerge while entering his ultimate transformation into an eight-headed regenerating giant larger than Manda.

The Curse Mark is something Orochimaru gave to him, but not something he gained from absorbing the white snake. Sasuke had the Curse Mark _prior to_ absorbing Orochimaru, and even used it against the Sannin.

What Sasuke actually did against Deidara he was capable of before, so attributing his defeat of Orochimaru to the Sannin having already been weakened is...saying something.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

I am surprised about the exaggeration of pain abilities which even kishi disagrees with 
How can he say on panel jiriaya with knowledge will win yet pain vs all 3 of them 
Means the Sannin loose ? 

Also ST is entirely useless aganst oro. He barfs himself out , that kinda physical damage is a waste of time 

BT+ soul rip meets oral rebirth 

Tsunade with katsuyu has already survived CST 

So really it's only jiriaya threatened by the Jutsu . 

With the other 2 Sanin as back up he has more than enough time to get into SM . Use frog call and pick the paths appart 

Sasori is really not a threat to any Sanin. I  curious why poison is somehow dangerous to Oro and tsunade 

Oro creates a new body why would the poison follow into the new body . Cellular regen easily trolls what sasori poison does . 

When one remembers that omyoton struck Sakura and she survived thanks to byakuyo


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## LostSelf (May 11, 2015)

Sage Mode Naruto could do nothing to prevent BT + Preta Push when Deva got serious. How can Oro open his mouth and go away from it better than Naruto? And if he comes out of his mouth, shouldn't he still be dragged on?


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Sage Mode Naruto could do nothing to prevent BT + Preta Push when Deva got serious. How can Oro open his mouth and go away from it better than Naruto? And if he comes out of his mouth, shouldn't he still be dragged on?



Naruto doesn't have orochimaru jutsu though

why would he be dragged on the pull would be affecting the body he just left. since BT pulls a specific object towards deva the center of gravity. also deva has no way to anticipate oro spitting out a kusanagi sword which kills deva 

or orochimaru spitting himself out with a kusanagi sword in his mouth ready to impale deva or human path 

Naruto is overall stronger but your statement makes it sound like anything Naruto cant do orochimaru cant either

perfect example. oro can lol at amaterasu sage mode Naruto cant

btw it was base Naruto who was shocked by Pa frog death btw who was pulled

base Naruto<<<<<<<<<<<<<orochimaru

kakashi clone still managed to slow itself down. no reason orochimaru should have trouble dealing with BT

also he could easily have swapped with a bunshin like kakashi did and bite either path once they are close immobilizing them and preventing chakra use at the same time. 

oro knows how to use clones


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## LostSelf (May 11, 2015)

Naruto could've thrown a punch, or frog Katas. Yet, he couldn't. Naruto has better reflexes to react to the jutsu, yet, he couldn't.

What are Orochimaru's reflexes? He was blitzed by Totsuka, and was blitzed by a left-for-dead rusty Tsunade who got up and punched his face and the guy couldn't do a thing.

Now, why would he react to something faster than that?


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Naruto could've thrown a punch, or frog Katas. Yet, he couldn't. Naruto has better reflexes to react to the jutsu, yet, he couldn't.
> 
> What are Orochimaru's reflexes? He was blitzed by Totsuka, and was blitzed by a left-for-dead rusty Tsunade who got up and punched his face and the guy couldn't do a thing.
> 
> Now, why would he react to something faster than that?



base Naruto doesn't have that jutsu

also range of katas punch doesn't allow for such. its not like it can hit a target before Naruto actual fist gets there. its only useful if the victim tries to dodge

why does oro need godly reflexes? 

the pull of BT has never been implied to be usually fast in anyway. considering a kakashi clone had the time to basically get a chain out of his bag and throw it to something 

no reason to think a kakashi clone reflexes are so much better than orochimaru's that kakashi clone can perform 2 different actions when all it takes for orochimaru is to open his mouth to land any number of surprise attacks 

or use snake binding spell (jutsu sasuke used to troll jugo and suigetsu )

which is a summon much faster than the snakes used in snake hands again something that requires no movement from orochimaru he only need think of it

oro options that only take reaction no movement on his part

-oral rebirth
-spit out kusanagi
-oral rebirth with kusangi in his mouth ready to impale either path
- cursed seal bite using his neck extension 
- snake binding spell 
- good old clone feint something orochimaru has done in the manga

Naruto has none of those jutsu which can be pulled off with just orochimaru reacting no seals or body movement required on his part


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

Even if Naruto could react to Banshō Ten'in (which he should have been able to because Kakashi's clone could even after Yahiko Pain cranked up the power) to Banshō Ten'in what exactly would he do?

His only ranged technique is a Rasenshūriken that takes two Kage Bunshins to help form. A punch would be seen coming and Kawazu Kumite could be aim dodged because the paths had knowledge at that point, so that wouldn't help him.

Naruto falling prey to the attack doesn't mean someone with quick, sneaky methods such as suddenly shooting a blade right out of their mouth with no warning will also fall prey to it.


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## LostSelf (May 11, 2015)

The thing is, it's not base Naruto. It's Sage Mode Naruto:

. He could do nothing. Yes, he could've thrown a punch, he couldn't move correctly, how is Oro moving? Even thought it's not all about moving, it's about reacting to something SM Naruto couldn't, when Oro has the worst record of reacting to surprise attacks.

Kakashi reacted because Deva didn't use enough power in the jutsu. All those jutsus, save spitting out Kusanagi, requires more time than it took Naruto to react. And even then, spitting out Kusanagi is slower than a reaction.

----------------------------

It's better to do something that do nothing. Naruto is not the type of guy that doesn't do a thing. He could've punched. In fact, he could've grabbed Preta's hand. He just couldn't react in time.

Oro's quickness, to be honest, are on vacation. The man couldn't do a thing to a rusty Tsunade when she punched him. I don't expect him to react to something like this here.

If Deva uses the same BT he used on Naruto.


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

Deva holding back when he was trying to wrench Kakashi off of that chain doesn't make any sense.

We already saw Preta prove that he could evade Naruto's punches- he only got hit so quickly because he didn't know about Kawazu Kumite. There would be no head grabbing.

That doesn't mean Naruto got drawn in so fast he couldn't so much as react.


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## LostSelf (May 11, 2015)

Don't ask me. How many ST he used on Kakashi, when he could've sent him flying to another manga with a ST strong enough like the ones he did to the summons?

Yet, Pain didn't. He held back, and it's clearly shown when he used more power on BT to destroy the chain.


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> Even if Naruto could react to Banshō Ten'in (which he should have been able to because Kakashi's clone could even after Yahiko Pain cranked up the power) to Banshō Ten'in what exactly would he do?
> 
> His only ranged technique is a Rasenshūriken that takes two Kage Bunshins to help form. A punch would be seen coming and Kawazu Kumite could be aim dodged because the paths had knowledge at that point, so that wouldn't help him.
> 
> Naruto falling prey to the attack doesn't mean someone with quick, sneaky methods such as suddenly shooting a blade right out of their mouth with no warning will also fall prey to it.



thank you nice to know some agrees 

orochimaru has more than 7 jutsu he can use in that situation that Naruto simply doesn't have. kakashi clone reacting really doesn't make me think the jutsu is so fast it leaves people unable to react 

I just cant see how people think paths of pain vs sannin isn't anything but a win for the sanin 

when only deva in a 1 on 1 situation is the only threat. any other path one on one is simply a victim of quick death. something jiriaya confirmed. the power of pain comes with their combined might of 6 and their combination attacks

here the best they can hope for is 3 vs 1. and we already saw how that worked out for them. if naraka is neutralized early on it wouldn't be an issue. 

I must say any sannin takes sasori without much trouble

@lost if deva held back why assume he wont old back this time?  

again any proof totsuka extension is slower than BT btw? cuz you saying oro got blitz by it as if to imply he is slow cuz of it is just wrong 

BT doesn't prevent movement never has.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> A punch would be seen coming and Kawazu Kumite could be aim dodged because the paths had knowledge at that point, so that wouldn't help him.



How would they aim dodge natural energy? They can't see it and they don't know its maximum range.


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## LostSelf (May 11, 2015)

Icegaze: I agree on that. If Deva uses a BT on a similar power as he did with Kakashi, Oro should react accordingly. I was talking about a serious Deva. He's facing the Sannin here, after all. And they have no knowledge on the jutsu, therefore a powerful BT or a powerful ST on the right enemy can lead this battle to a victory.

But yeah, i agree with you. Also, it's not only Totsuka's extension (Wich shouldn't be _that_ fast either. It's how Oro was blitzed by a Tsunade who was in the floor lying. 

Look the distance and her condition:





How the fuck did she stood up in that condition and Oro never, ever reacted?


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## Icegaze (May 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Icegaze: I agree on that. If Deva uses a BT on a similar power as he did with Kakashi, Oro should react accordingly. I was talking about a serious Deva. He's facing the Sannin here, after all. And they have no knowledge on the jutsu, therefore a powerful BT or a powerful ST on the right enemy can lead this battle to a victory.
> 
> But yeah, i agree with you. Also, it's not only Totsuka's extension (Wich shouldn't be _that_ fast either. It's how Oro was blitzed by a Tsunade who was in the floor lying.
> 
> ...



you forget orochimaru condition as well 

tsunade could hear him breathing and in pain. go back to a few chapter before the scans you just posted. 

why should totsuka extension not be that fast yet BT is this super fast technique simply because Naruto with no jutsu to do anything about it didn't. what was he going to do in that situation?

if BT was described as fast or hyped to be in DB you would certainly have a point 

The sannin are fighting a rinnegan user. why oro wont use clones is beyond me. so it could very well be a clone or another sannin could intercept 

since it only takes 1 sannin to beat sasori anyway

btw the excuse of deva was holding back against kakashi isn't a valid one 

its far more likely nagato wasn't channelling enough chakra to deva which would be the result of having 6 bodies present vs when against Naruto which he had only 2 left 

so it would be stronger the less pains on the field though this implies the sannin don't target deva who is the biggest threat amongst the paths


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They don't know its maximum range.



Did they assume that there was a good chance it could have been larger and draw Naruto in anyway because they somehow _did_ know the full extent to which his reflexes had been enhanced?

How good of a chance is there that Kawazu Kumite's range would actually be wider than that? It wouldn't make much sense for Naruto to repeatedly get so close to the paths if the whole time he was capable of extending it past what he already did (and what they already knew he could). If he actually could, he should have done it already, so it'd be a fairly safe bet that he couldn't. 

A somewhat similar kind of assumption is what Nagato's _teacher_ based his plan around when he fought Pain in Amegakure (Jiraiya, essentially- "strange that they wouldn't have already done more than that at this point if they could have.....could it be that's all they can do).


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I was assuming that was based on their techniques.
> 
> If there's no intel on even their prestige, then Nagato can still resort to sensing to determine the threat of their target.



You know sensing doesn't really give you power levels.  You can sense when people build up a massive amount of chakra for a big move, like when Neji viewed Kisame before he spit a lake, or when Naruto used a FRS, or Raikage amped his chakra to bijuu levels for V2, and you can tell when chakra is sickly and evil like CS or Orochimaru or Kakuzu with his masks out, but they only hold that for a little bit.  Just saying.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Or Tsunade throw a rock on it, or Orochimaru destroy it with Kusanagi. The thing is the core is featless and anybody with a range jutsu can destroy it .



The thing is that the core is probably not stronger than Madara's Susano, as Susano is specifically an absolute defence, and the core is not.  In fact, the core is called a weak point.  So Tsuande using Susano busting strength to lob an indestructable diamond piercing Kusunagi at it would probably pierce it, yes.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

Naruto not reacting to BT means little when Kakashi proved it's possible.  Maybe Kakashi had sharingan to precog the attack, or more battle experience, or better tools.  That's speculation, but what's demonstrably true is that the technique has been countered.

Assuming it goes BT to rod stab, or BT to Asura stab, that means nothing to two of the characters.  Sakura impaled herself on Madara's rod, and still threw a punch at his face, so Tsunade can too, and Oro will snake out of it, or bite the opponent with cursed seal or something.  BT into 3KK sand wave would be pretty good though.  I don't know how long he'll last with all the jutsu flying around.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> How good of a chance is there that Kawazu Kumite's range would actually be wider than that? It wouldn't make much sense for Naruto to repeatedly get so close to the paths if the whole time he was capable of extending it past what he already did (and what they already knew he could). If he actually could, he should have done it already, so it'd be a fairly safe bet that he couldn't.



I'm pretty sure he displayed a longer reach with it when pushing Obito's Chakra Receiver out of Son Goku, so if they did indeed make the assumption that was they saw was all that Naruto is capable of, then they were wrong. Granted I'll give you that it's possible he improved the range between his fight with Pain and the 4th war.

That wasn't my main point though. Aim dodging is positioning oneself away from the path of a fast attack before it's actually used, like dodging a bullet by jumping away before the gunman fires. Attacks that get aim-dodged are obviously linear and incapable of changing direction, and my interpretation of ghost punching was always Naruto manipulating the natural energy around his fist and _guiding_ it into the target's face.


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## FlamingRain (May 11, 2015)

I thought that was just the shock and not the reach of the actual technique?

I also thought the ghost punches always followed the same path Naruto's physical punches did. Like the Tajutsu version of Shadow Shuriken or something.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Itachi plays in the same ballpark as the Sannin do. Kind of. In my tier list he's a lower High Kage while the Sannin are the stronger Mid Kages. Itachi is definitely stronger, but not to the point that he stomps them. We've seen very little of the interactions Itachi and Orochimaru had, but when you take into consideration that they recognized each other's trump cards, it's safe to say that they're close to each other than chapter 345 may indicate.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Something troubling is that every other sage mode user largely cast off the limitations of sage mode after their debut with it.  Even Minato, who couldn't ever use sage mode properly, could access some form of it with a near minimal charge, and even Pa and Ma were able to charge a usable amount during the Pain fight in a few panels.  This extends to every other power up in the series as well.  Gates, tails, byako and it's amperage, CS, kamui, MS blindness to EMS spammage...pretty much anything that took time or had a drawback lost it in subsequent showings, as the manga moved towards characters quickly obtaining and always fighting at their peak, and abusing their strongest jutsu.  Jiraiya died on his first showing of his super mode, when it was still special, and is limited to that showing.  Which is somewhat unfair given the near 100% odds that he'd have received the same benefit of feats improvement as everyone else in the series.  That's probably why using portrayal to smooth over sections, or just going 100% portrayal, is a better fit overall.

Not that I see Jiraiya having difficulties entering his debut sage mode with his perfect team as backup.  Orochimaru could barf a tidal wall of snakes as the Sannin get in a little froggy and hop or spill away into the nearby forest, and there's not much they'll do to track that before J-man emerges at full power.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought that was just the shock and not the reach of the actual technique?
> 
> I also thought the ghost punches always followed the same path Naruto's physical punches did. Like the Tajutsu version of Shadow Shuriken or something.



From my understanding, it's like the taijutsu version of shadow shuriken, but the ghost punch can extend a bit beyond the fist in any direction, including forward.  That lets it catch people who dodge left or duck it, but also catch people who lean away from it.  It's probably only a foot or so in any direction, but that would be enough to punch out the rod in monkey d lavamonster.

I also think the natural energy lags a little behind the arm until so it can be sent it on a different course.  Which is predicted or reacted to with sage sensing.  If your normal punch were to land, you could theoretically follow it up with the natural energy, for a one two.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

FlamingRain said:


> I thought that was just the shock and not the reach of the actual technique?



I've seen people argue that. 

I dunno; I interpreted it as Naruto pushing the receiver out using natural energy. I mean, if Naruto had hit the Yonbi from the inside, wouldn't the energy from Naruto's palm disperse throughout Goku's body instead of beelining it for the specific spot where a stake was protruding from his skin?

It makes more sense to me that Naruto guided natural energy into the receiver after locating it with sensing, especially given that he yells "Frog Fu" as he's slamming his palm down. I guess that would also support Frog Katas being guided as opposed to linear. How exactly do you picture the paths going about aim dodging them?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 11, 2015)

If the one-two, or combined normal and ghost punch was true, it could probably also knock it out with the shockwave.  Isn't there a databook entry on those things?

The only way I see dodging the ghost punches is if you're out of range, or you have byakugan or something.  Rinnegan can't see crap.


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## Rocky (May 11, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Jiraiya died on his first showing of his super mode, when it was still special, and is limited to that showing.  Which is somewhat unfair given the near 100% odds that he'd have received the same benefit of feats improvement as everyone else in the series.



What took Jiraiya long was _summoning Ma & Pa_, not actually entering Sage Mode. He needed to gather natural energy to enter Sage Mode, which means that he had to stay perfectly still...which is impossible when riding a giant toad being chased by a giant 3-headed dog. Tbh, now that I'm looking back at it I don't see how Jiraiya even got into SM in the first place, but whatevs.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2015)

Jiraiya's ritual is weird and inconsistent with everything we learned 2 chapters later about sage mode.


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## Lawrence777 (May 12, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Yeah, Sasori is difficult to place, for me at least. Beating the strongest Kazekage and assimilating the techniques that made him so famous should have Sasori chilling on the high end of Mid Kage, but I do feel that the Sannin were generally seen as stronger than the "regular" Akatsuki members (ie. _not_ the legendary-dojutsu wielding members with plot importance).


Well, hypothetically how much stronger do you believe they were if they are stronger? If your beliefs are still relatively similar to  your earlier assessments in the Oro v akatsuki gauntlet thread(where he'd potentially lose to some mid akatsuki and win with high/extreme diff against others) then I'd be willing to continue under that assumption of difference of strength, which wouldn't be too much and could, as you imply below, potentially vary by the akatsuki's arsenal. I'd have to scrutinize the hype a bit more for me to believe any mid akatsuki'd lose irregardless of individual peculiarities though.



> That said, no-knowledge poison could allow Sasori to fight outside of his tier, similar to how Kisame can fight jinchuriki. Kisame didn't find himself to be much of a match for any of the prodigal three, yet the man took down Killer B who is _easily_ Sannin-tier at the absolute minimum (and many, myself included, find B to be decisively stronger than that).


I agree in general with the no knowledge poison(it'll probably come up later) though I don't believe there's a full tier worth of difference between the sannin and sasori in need of being accounted for anyway. If anything no knowledge lethal poison'd overshoot that goal.

Kisame's assessment was limited to a title however, not actual battle experience. Kishi's opinion of Kisame may have evolved over time as well because...  Kisame became very powerful in part II when he showed all he can do as you stated. 

Outside of hype, from a purely feats perspective I'd make the case Kisame could beat if not push to extreme difficulty either tsunade or base jiraiya. Featwise I'd think at the very least those matchups would be heavily debated if not victories in Kisame's favor. And my point's not regarding who would win, but instead to illustrate such closeness signifies a departure from the notion that any of the sannin'd win convincingly without much difficulty vs Kisame. They'd literally need knew abilities to be drawn for that initial hype to stay consistent IMO, so Kishi may have pulled Sarutobi level revisionist history with that one in particular.



> Basically, I agree with FlamingRain in that two Sannin should finish with Pain before the last Sannin finishes his/her fight with Sasori, and the other two could go on to support their teammate.


 I still don't believe two sannin'd beat Pain though, so we'll flesh this out and I'll link some of my earlier points pertaining to that later.



> That said, poison could score a quick win for Sasori, allowing him to go support Pain...so I can see this going either way. I just lead towards the Sannin because it's difficult to side with the Akatsuki when it's 3 vs. 2, even if Pain is comfortably the strongest. When factoring in their renowned teamwork, I think it is fair to give the Sannin the benefit of the doubt here.


This is fair, though the Pains having there own synergy, combined with Sasori occupying a member of the sannin(and thus lessening team work) could perhaps shift that benefit of the doubt.


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## Lawrence777 (May 12, 2015)

@Flaming


> When Jiraiya first stepped out of the tunnel Animal summoned Preta and Human after which Human charged Jiraiya, readied their Chakra rods when the Myōbokuzan trio was talking about shared vision, and they went into seek and destroy mode once Jiraiya hid in the pipes before they realized he was preparing a Genjutsu.
> 
> They were attacking when Jiraiya wasn't.


I believe there only attack that whole fight was conservative(they send human path in alone to test the waters and he basically got kicked, then they were defense whole time. Some links[1-> ,2,3,4,5]



> Giving his location away could have been done without Gamarinshō- they didn't go "Oh no it's a one-hit KO Genjutsu we have to hurry", they went "the sound's coming from there- that's where he is".


The genjutsu was the whole reason Jiraiya and company ran away in the first place to hide Flaming [1]. Without the genjutsu, they may not have even decided to hide. Additionally, without genjutsu Pain could have taken his time sweeping the area methodically as well. 



> We saw Jiraiya effectively shut them down by himself once they entered that hall- Human Realm was stuck on the ceiling, Preta was still absorbing flames, and Animal had just been smacked down the hall like a ping-pong ball. If Fukasaku and Shima weren't preoccupied with synching that Genjutsu what do you think would have happened? I think that in all likelihood Animal and Human would be crushed and solo Preta would be demolished shortly afterwards.


And the implication had been the three Pains would win w/o the genjutsu[2]. If your point is Jiraiya's superior to 3 bodies if he runs away and attempts irregular tactics with a prepped kage bushin (because that's what he did) then you'd have a point I feel. But we saw what was happening when Jiraiya tried to go head to head with those bodies-he wasn't winning head to head.



> Well...this is before and this is after.
> 
> Deva making Jiraiya's attempt to hide futile when they're all present is exactly the opposite of what happened in canon.
> 
> Blowing the whole hallway down was something Animal Realm could have done, but didn't.


That is true, Deva must of decided to not use BT. We don't really know how he escaped but that's a fair point. I think deva could of blown the hallway down much more effectively(not sure how animal would have done it). He could of just sent a shockwave down that whole narrow hallway though.



> However, if they're only equal outside of Sage Mode then they're not equal. The thing is that it's been suggested multiple times that they are equal, even with Jiraiya being renowned as the Toad Sage of the Sannin.
> 
> I think that Tsunade and Orochimaru are actually superior to Jiraiya's base form, and Jiraiya evens that out by receiving the most drastic power up of the three when he's able to find the opportunity to utilize it.


Your way implies inequality as well. And regardless, I don't see why you'd believe Tsunade's arsenal is superior to base Jiraiya's between large scale dotons/large scale katons/large scale suitons/large scale oil/kage bushin and potentially toad army. Jiraiya's base arsenal from a purely offensive standpoint is clearly superior to Tsunade's cqc-limited, speed-limited linear hulk-smash attacks IMO. 



> Kisame seemed to think that the fight could swing either way. Deidara and Jiraiya both indicated that capturing somebody alive is more difficult than just killing them, too, and that might be worth considering as relevant as Jiraiya would have just been trying to kill Itachi whereas Orochimaru had been aiming to take over Itachi's body.


Fair enough, though he wasn't trying to capture him alive the second time around and much help that did.



> We only saw a snippet of Itachi and Orochimaru's first fight in a flashback, we're not shown a start and finish including what was in-between. Their second clash was one between their strongest Jutsus from the outset, which wouldn't be a blowout or even reflective of the pacing of a normal fight between the two (at least not unless Itachi already knows he needs the Totsuka to take Orochimaru out).


Plenty of character's strongest techniques clash. EoS Naruto's technique clashed with EoS Sasuke and they both mutually and gravely injured the other.That was an instance of an even trade. That was not the case with what happened with Orochimaru and Itachi; Orochimaru's strongest technique basically got embarrassed by Itachi's strongest technique alongside Itachi having a dismissive tone of voice.



> In regards to the first fight I doubt Itachi instantly caught Orochimaru in that Genjutsu, which was seemingly about to be broken in a second if Itachi hadn't severed Orochimaru's hand (which should have broken it itself, due to the pain), and just cutting off a hand isn't even close to sufficient to beat Orochimaru (as Orochimaru implied Itachi ought to already know), so I doubt that was the end of the battle either. I'd say much more happening than what was actually revealed on-panel is the best explanation for Sasuke being aware of Amaterasu despite only ever experiencing Tsukuyomi personally (Orochimaru must've told him in preparation for Itachi), Itachi being so familiar with the feeling of Yamata no Orochi, and Orochimaru expressing surprise at the presence of the Totsuka no Tsurugi but not Susano'o itself.
> 
> So I'm not one of the many that think Itachi just up and stomped Orochimaru...in base...I think he'd wind up having to use a fully-realized manifestation of Susano'o in order to actually take out Orochimaru.


If it was that drawn out then Kishi sure picked a peculiar way of illustrating how their encounter went down, wouldn't you say? Because I don't know why a writer would show someone panel the other person and want the reader to take away from it "That was a pretty close death match involving their strongest techniques"?

Orochimaru likely saw mostly everything through Sasuke's cursed mark the way he viewed the uchiha bros battle through Anko. So I'm not surprised he isn't surprised. He knew Itachi had drained Sasuke's chakra and everything. The yamata no Orochi is an interesting point but it wouldn't be the first time characters have recognized something they've never seen before(like young Jiraiya recognizing rinnegan despite having never seen it before). It could be possible Itachi "felt" Orochimarujust like Fu could "feel" and recognize shisui's chakra within Danzo.



> Sasuke's physique was enhanced in the sense that his recovery rate had been significantly accelerated, but that was only really pertinent in regards to how short a time he needed to rest before moving out again post-fight. He never used Orochimaru's "Kawarimi" until the fight with Itachi, nor did Orochimaru ever emerge while entering his ultimate transformation into an eight-headed regenerating giant larger than Manda.


Him not using those specific moves doesn't indicate Orochimaru's absorption didn't play a roll. The databook mentions regeneration as one of the perks, but the language doesn't imply it's the only perk. I do believe it's implied heavily in the databook page for Sasuke Orochimaru's power/ the white snake  enhanced him. For instance, this bit:


> [Godlike speed]
> _Adding up to his innate talent_, *Orochimaru's strength* — "cursed seal" included — granted him a power a normal shinobi could not even dream of


So the category is concerning speed, and it makes a point to differentiate between sasuke's innate skill and Orochimaru's strength(and note, it further differentiates between Orochimaru's strength and the powers granted by cursed seal, although they fall under the same umbrella). I think everything about Sasuke got enhanced when he absorbed orochimaru; durability speed strength chakra etc.



> What Sasuke actually did against Deidara he was capable of before, so attributing his defeat of Orochimaru to the Sannin having already been weakened is...saying something.


 SPII Sasuke was weaker than Hebi Sasuke though(honestly, he should be weaker in every way) so I wouldn't ascribe Deidara's defeat by Hebi Sauce to something a weaker incarnation can do.

And SPII Sasuke (the incarnation that fought and actually absorbed Orochimaru) _is_ weaker than a healthy or even armless Orochimaru so it'd make sense for Sasuke to say Orochimaru was weakened anyway. 

Mind you, Sasuke held back against Deidara regardless and didn't use his biggest hitters (ala Full CS2 Mode/Oral Rebirth/Kirin). I say this because I think what your working toward is Oro > Hebi Sauce when that still wouldn't be the case given Sasuke beat Deidara convincingly without his strongest moves. He's conservatively _at minimum_ equal if not stronger(and I think a poll would reflect that.)


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## Icegaze (May 12, 2015)

its odd to assume the sannin wont have knowledge on poison when tsunade herself is a poison expert who has experience fighting chiyo a puppet user who uses poison 

so off the bat they are going to know sasori uses poison. again his poison is only effective if he manages to land hits on the sannin which isn't going to be easy not when puppet chakra shield is capable of blocking his iron sand


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## LostSelf (May 12, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> The thing is that the core is probably not stronger than Madara's Susano, as Susano is specifically an absolute defence, and the core is not.  In fact, the core is called a weak point.  So Tsuande using Susano busting strength to lob an indestructable diamond piercing Kusunagi at it would probably pierce it, yes.



This is tergiversed. Weak point of something doesn't necessarily needs to be something weak that anybody can destroy.

The core itself sustains the huge rocks that are pushed towards itself with extreme force, force powerful enough to keep KN6 in place and make him unable to come out. KN6 could've died with such an attack, and diamond piercing Kusanagi failed miserably, even dealing cutting damage, against KN4 Naruto.

The core is extremely durable. Also, that post you quoted was joking from the Itachi vs Chibaku Tensei thread. Where people were saying he could bust it by himself with Magatama because the core 'it's featless', when it's clearly not.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 12, 2015)

Kusunagi failed because Oro lacked strength. Do you really think the core is more durable than Madara's Susano?


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## FlamingRain (May 12, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I believe there only attack that whole fight was conservative.



A conservative attack to test the waters would have been throwing another summoning at Jiraiya, not one of the paths so he can wind up getting his eyes kicked into the back of his head.

Drawing their Chakra rods before Jiraiya ever threw another attack implies they were about to go on the offensive before Jiraiya went into the pipes, and they were going after him before they ever realized he was preparing a Genjutsu. They were on the defensive before that because Jiraiya kept taking the offensive himself.



> The genjutsu was the whole reason Jiraiya and company ran away in the first place to hide.



_Jiraiya_ (the one who actually came up with the plan) was apparently also thinking that they ought to retreat for the time being despite not even knowing that _Gamarinshō_ existed yet, and Pa _said they ran because he needed a little time to think_.

If the Genjutsu were the whole reason they hid there wasn't much of a point to even retreating, considering that their position was given away all of a couple seconds after they started trying to synchronize, as they knew it would be. 

"Sweeping the area methodically" is something Pain did a fine job of never doing even before realizing the Genjutsu was being readied so I don't know why you keep acting as if the Genjutsu is the only way Pain could have been lured in..._especially_ when he didn't even think the Genjutsu would be so potent before it was actually cast.



> And the implication had been the three Pains would win w/o the genjutsu[2].



Again _before_ they confirmed that each body only had one ability.

Jiraiya didn't just up and say "I'm going to lose _period_", he said "This _is going_ from bad to worse..."/"If I keep fighting _like this_".

The implication is that _if the paths kept pulling out new tricks like they had been_ Jiraiya would be beaten. The "gamble" Jiraiya mentions in that page is referring to whether the bodies will keep using those same techniques or pull out new ones. However Jiraiya _later confirms_ that each body can only use one technique once they keep doing the same things they had been after entering the hallway (going "yes! it paid off!"), and clearly he has them shut down before Gamarinshō ever activates. It would have taken a couple more moves but he still could have killed them without it.

Jiriaya thought he would have been killed by those paths using only those abilities without Gamarinshō is about as believable as Jiraiya thinking Animal Path would solo him if he didn't summon the two sages, because Jiraiya has already demonstrated the ability necessary to kill those one-ability-per-body paths without using it.



> If your point is Jiraiya's superior to 3 bodies if he runs away and attempts irregular tactics with a prepped kage bushin then you'd have a point I feel.



"Irregular"? How do you know those are aren't regular tactics? I mean these _are_ _*ninjas*_ we are talking about and some are known to make a _habit_ out of such tactics. Jiraiya had already tried playing trickster to catch Pain off guard with smokescreens and summoning distractions. Why single out _Kage Bunshin_ and say _that's_ not normal?



> But we saw what was happening when Jiraiya tried to go head to head with those bodies-he wasn't winning head to head.



The only one who had taken any damage so far was Pain. 



> That is true, Deva must of decided to not use BT.



_Or_ Deva _used_ Banshō Ten'in and it was just interrupted because Jiraiya spit a fireball at him or something, or any number of things that could have happened.



> Your way implies inequality as well.



It doesn't because characters can be equal even while they have specific advantages and disadvantages compared to each other, since said advantages and disadvantages can in a sense actually even each other out, and this is especially true when different styles are being used.

My way implies that equality is maintained between the Sannin in that way- due to the most drastic boost being the one that is the biggest hassle to even access in the first place the overall effectiveness is practically the same.

That makes more sense than Tsunade and Orochimaru merely being on par with _base_ Jiraiya, because there is no distinct second character named "base Jiraiya" that doesn't have Sage Mode in the manga (nor is there one named "Sage Mode Jiraiya" that starts all of his fights in that form). Sage Mode is simply one part of the single character in the manga named "Jiraiya" that is canonically equal to Tsunade and Orochimaru even though he's known as the Toad Sage of the Three Great Shinobi.



> And regardless, I don't see why you'd believe Tsunade's arsenal is superior to base Jiraiya's.



"Speed-limited" sounds like you're implying Tsunade is slow, which _which_ _is_ _simply_ _not_ _at_ _all_ _the_ _case_.

She may be at her most lethal in close-quarters but she's hardly limited to it.

Katsuyu itself is gigantic and has Zesshi Nensan, which Tsunade could in theory supercharge to make even larger like she did Ohnoki's Jinton, its ability to perpetually split into a bunch of independent slugs that can slide across the battlefield spitting acid and trying to grab or slam into opponents could be seen as the Slug Princess's version of Aka Higi: Hyakki no Sōen, and its ability to melt across the field into a sticky slug floor could be used to hinder enemy movement and even potentially channel an excess amount of Chakra through in order to put them into a coma.

But just listing off skills doesn't get anybody anywhere. Everyone can do that.

I see a ninja's strength as representative of the number of people they would beat on a list of the people in the verse, and I can see Tsunade beating a larger number than base Jiraiya.



> Fair enough, though he wasn't trying to capture him alive the second time around and much help that did.



The second time said he was going to take over Sasuke's body, _then_ kill Itachi.



> Plenty of character's strongest techniques clash. EoS Naruto's technique clashed with EoS Sasuke and they both mutually and gravely injured the other.That was an instance of an even trade. That was not the case with what happened with Orochimaru and Itachi.



I don't recall saying that they didn't. 

Naruto and Sasuke were gravely injured because they both clashed with giant explosives like they were in DBZ, but I never argued that when Orochimaru and Itachi's best techniques clashed it was an "even trade" like that in the first place so you're attacking a straw man.

My point is how unusually quickly that point was reached in their second fight. People don't normally _start off_ a fight with their strongest Jutsu active, and when they do the fight will naturally conclude a lot quicker than it would between them in normal circumstances. That is, unless it is already known that said strongest technique is a necessity in order to win, and if you're forced to use such costly techniques in order to take out the opposition like that they're in your league- you didn't stomp them.

Itachi was never dismissive until _after_ Orochimaru had been stabbed by the Totsuka- opponents that are being sealed up don't need to be considered even if powerful.



> If it was that drawn out then Kishi sure picked a peculiar way of illustrating how their encounter went down, wouldn't you say?



No.

This "panel the other person" thing can be dropped until you show that that was where the fight started and stopped.

We can't do that, though, and the reason the event was even recalled at that moment was because Sasuke cast _the same Genjutsu_. Yet, that _didn't_ stop Orochimaru from persisting.

What is truly peculiar here is why anybody thinks a severed hand would stop the man who smiles at taking fireballs to the face, piercing his feet all the way through with hair needles, being ripped in two by Chakra claws, disfigured by giant Chakra explosions, and skewered by swords the size of his upper body.

You think Orochimaru laughed at Itachi expecting a "little cut" like a giant sword through the torso to stop him because the last time they fought Itachi stopped him by cutting off his hand?



> The yamata no Orochi is an interesting point but it wouldn't be the first time characters have recognized something they've never seen before(like young Jiraiya recognizing rinnegan despite having never seen it before).



Jiraiya didn't recognize the Rinnegan by "feeling" the Rinnegan, but by the pattern he was looking right at. You could probably find an illustration of the Rinnegan in any scroll or on any tablet or in any book about the Sage of Six Paths or something. That's really non-comparable to recognizing a Jutsu by the feeling of its emergence.

When did Fu feel Shisui's Chakra, though? Ao _saw_ it once he used the Byakugan, and the reason he recognized it was because he _fought against it before_.



> Him not using those specific moves doesn't indicate Orochimaru's absorption didn't play a roll. The databook mentions regeneration as one of the perks, but the language doesn't imply it's the only perk. I do believe it's implied heavily in the databook page for Sasuke Orochimaru's power/ the white snake  enhanced him.



The power of the white snake _is regeneration_, so Sasuke capturing the white snake's power is Sasuke gaining Orochimaru's regenerative abilities such as an accelerated recovery rate and his unique "Kawarimi", neither of which were relied on in the fight with Deidara.

Also, _this_ translation reads: .

Inborn talent and the Curse Mark are things Sasuke had pre-Hebi, and we already knew he was incredibly fast _Pre_-_Hebi_.


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## Icegaze (May 13, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Well, hypothetically how much stronger do you believe they were if they are stronger? If your beliefs are still relatively similar to  your earlier assessments in the Oro v akatsuki gauntlet thread(where he'd potentially lose to some mid akatsuki and win with high/extreme diff against others) then I'd be willing to continue under that assumption of difference of strength, which wouldn't be too much and could, as you imply below, potentially vary by the akatsuki's arsenal. I'd have to scrutinize the hype a bit more for me to believe any mid akatsuki'd lose irregardless of individual peculiarities though.



if all I could pitch in I believe all sannin are above all akatsuki bar the dojutsu wielding users. 
from kisame comment about not being able to do much against jiriaya. jiriaya who couldn't beat orochimaru, so on and so forth. 

I have always thought based on how they fight and portrayal that tsunade beats oro, jiriaya looses to oro, and jiriaya beats tsunade




> I agree in general with the no knowledge poison(it'll probably come up later) though I don't believe there's a full tier worth of difference between the sannin and sasori in need of being accounted for anyway. If anything no knowledge lethal poison'd overshoot that goal


.

well I think all sannin are high kage level and sasori is mid kage level. the poison only would work on jiriaya, tsunade and orochimaru would be just fine if hit by poison. 
will explain why if you reply 



> Kisame's assessment was limited to a title however, not actual battle experience. Kishi's opinion of Kisame may have evolved over time as well because...  Kisame became very powerful in part II when he showed all he can do as you stated.



yes kisame became very powerful, however the outcome of a fight with jiriaya would be the same he would loose quite badly. kishi progressing characters overtime is natural, frog katas and frog call only came about after jiriaya died. techniques which would have been useful against pain if jiriaya used them 



> Outside of hype, from a purely feats perspective I'd make the case Kisame could beat if not push to extreme difficulty either tsunade or base jiraiya. Featwise I'd think at the very least those matchups would be heavily debated if not victories in Kisame's favor. And my point's not regarding who would win, but instead to illustrate such closeness signifies a departure from the notion that any of the sannin'd win convincingly without much difficulty vs Kisame. They'd literally need knew abilities to be drawn for that initial hype to stay consistent IMO, so Kishi may have pulled Sarutobi level revisionist history with that one in particular.



kisame could beat base jiriaya to be honest. but the thing is kisame could have been sure that jiriaya didn't get his hype that easily. since he knew nothing of jiriaya he could have guess jiriaya got such hype from having jutsu beyond kisame's. which SM jiriaya has

a kisame vs tsunade match frankly should end in kisame loss. with katsuyu around kisame only resort is to chakra drain. Vs tsunade 1 shot kill punch. 



> I still don't believe two sannin'd beat Pain though, so we'll flesh this out and I'll link some of my earlier points pertaining to that later.



well kishi stated one could with full knowledge. I wouldn't go against kishi words on it. he was trying to tell us something 



> This is fair, though the Pains having there own synergy, combined with Sasori occupying a member of the sannin(and thus lessening team work) could perhaps shift that benefit of the doubt.



the pains have the best synergy one can think of. however hows does sasori iron sand work with pain metal rods?
sasori also isn't occupying any sannin for 2 long. not when chiyo and sakura beat him quickly according to deidara.


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## LostSelf (May 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kusunagi failed because Oro lacked strength. Do you really think the core is more durable than Madara's Susano?



Why not? It depends how you see Madara's ribcage Susano'o being captured by CT'. Because the core supports twice or triple the pressure of that, as it has all the rocks completely surrounding it. Oro will lack the strenght to pierce it, and Tsunade probably doesn't either.

Do you think a punch would destroy a semi god-tier's strongest jutsu? or a simple sword coming from the mouth?


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 13, 2015)

Because it took 9 bijuu going berserk on Madara's lesser Susano for awhile to eventually strip it away.  Tsunade cracked up that version of Susano in one punch, and shattered it in a few.  The first core got broken by 8 tails Naruto alone, while he was being indiscriminate. The focused attack of 9 bijuu beats the indiscriminate attack of less than one in my book.


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## LostSelf (May 13, 2015)

We don't know how manny attacks were needed to bust Madara's Susano'o, their (Bijuus) attack obliterated the entire thing. If we follow that, we can say it took a Bijuudama, FRS and Magatama to destroy the core, in wich Tsunade's punch would fall short too, if we follow it this way.


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## Empathy (May 13, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Because it took 9 bijuu going berserk on Madara's lesser Susano for awhile to eventually strip it away.  Tsunade cracked up that version of Susano in one punch, and shattered it in a few.  The first core got broken by 8 tails Naruto alone, while he was being indiscriminate. The focused attack of 9 bijuu beats the indiscriminate attack of less than one in my book.



_Susanoo_ was boosted by natural energy, no?


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## UchihaX28 (May 13, 2015)

Empathy said:


> _Susanoo_ was boosted by natural energy, no?



 It depends whether or not Madara can mold Natural Energy with his chakra to form Sage Chakra IMO.


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## Empathy (May 13, 2015)

Well obviously he can, seeing as he was in _Sennin Modo_ at the time and all his jutsu were boosted due to that fact. That level of durability isn't consistent with that level of _Susanoo_. This is highlighted by the inconsistency PoW tried to use as a testament to Tsunade. Tsunade's strong, but she isn't one-punch-equal-to-the-physical-strength-of-literally-all-the-bijuu strong. Madara's _Susanoo_ was obviously boosted by _Sennin Modo_.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 13, 2015)

Empathy said:


> _Susanoo_ was boosted by natural energy, no?



Maybe.  If each bijuu only hit twice, that's a x18 boost in durability, which is very generous for a man without eyeballs.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (May 13, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> We don't know how manny attacks were needed to bust Madara's Susano'o, their (Bijuus) attack obliterated the entire thing. If we follow that, we can say it took a Bijuudama, FRS and Magatama to destroy the core, in wich Tsunade's punch would fall short too, if we follow it this way.



If I'm wrong for forgetting natural energy, then you're wrong for forgetting Nagato's jutsu are stronger than Pain Rikkudo's.  So no, it wouldn't take a bijuudama and magatama and frs to break Deva's core, it would take whatever 8 trails Naruto did.


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