# 100% Kyuubi-BM+SM Naruto VS SM Hashirama



## Raiken (Nov 8, 2013)

_Both start at Full Health and Stamina_
*Terrain:* Rocky Landscape at Night.
*Mindset:* Blood-lusted
*Restrictions:* Summoning Jutsu


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## Blu-ray (Nov 8, 2013)

I'd go with Hashirama extremely high diff. Thanks to sage mode, I doubt Naruto's speed is going to be overwhelming. Once Shinsuusenju comes out, it grabs all Bijuudama and shove them back in Naruto's face along with Chojo Kebutsu. When something that huge attacks, dodging isn't possible anyway. Thanks to sage mode, clone feints are a non factor for both of them in this fight.


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## Yukiteru (Nov 8, 2013)

Naruto wins.

In my opinion, multiple clones of Naruto are sufficient enough to distract, outclass, and overpower Hashirama.

Simultaneous Beast Bombs + Frog Kata + Sound Genjutsu + Multiple Naruto's + Ma and Pa + Multiple Dual FRS + Summoning Jutsus +++ = Hashirama is simply curbstomped. 

Of course, I could be wrong.


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## Etherborn (Nov 8, 2013)

This is basically end of series Naruto unless he gets some other type of powerup, so I give it to Naruto.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Nov 8, 2013)

naruto is no replacement for madara

sm hashirama mid diff


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## Ghost (Nov 8, 2013)

ehh... Naruto mid diff.


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## Legendary Itachi (Nov 8, 2013)

Not sure what Naruto can do with Hashi's Buddha now, his Bijuudama isn't enough to destroy sth in such size. With other combinations of Mokuton, Hashi should still take this.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Naruto is already stronger than hashi IMO.


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Based on feats only. BM Naruto could take this high diff, while current BSM Naruto could take this mid-diff.

BM Naruto has tanked Juubi's laserdama with just 6 of his tails, so Buddha and it's thousand punches aren't putting him down, unless some people here believe that Buddha's punches ---> V1 Juubi's laserdama in dmg output. Naruto destroy's Hashi's Buddha with super-bijuudama, FRS and COFRS spamm from 13 RM clones and 3 BM clones. The FRS from the BM clones will just cut trough the Buddha statues arms like butter since they aren't more durable than V2 Juubi's tails which got sliced in half by 1 FRS, then there is also COFRS which can't be catched by the statues hand since it would just slice trough, if COFRS explodes it would probably engulf half the buddha in it's wind sphere.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 8, 2013)

BM Naruto can handle this. C'mon mangggg


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## Enki (Nov 8, 2013)

Naruto *might* win this with extreme diff.


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## Ghost (Nov 8, 2013)

^ lol. BM Naruto could take this extreme diff.


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## Kai (Nov 8, 2013)

Panther said:


> Based on feats only. BM Naruto could take this high diff, while current BSM Naruto could take this mid-diff.
> 
> BM Naruto has tanked Juubi's laserdama with just 6 of his tails, so Buddha and it's thousand punches aren't putting him down, unless some people here believe that Buddha's punches ---> V1 Juubi's laserdama in dmg output. Naruto destroy's Hashi's Buddha with super-bijuudama, FRS and COFRS spamm from 13 RM clones and 3 BM clones. The FRS from the BM clones will just cut trough the Buddha statues arms like butter since they aren't more durable than V2 Juubi's tails which got sliced in half by 1 FRS, then there is also COFRS which can't be catched by the statues hand since it would just slice trough, if COFRS explodes it would probably engulf half the buddha in it's wind sphere.


BM Naruto hasn't displayed power that can bust Hashi's Mokuton: Hobi that withstood the impact of Kurama's bijuudama at point blank without a scratch.

And if powered by Sage Mode? Naruto has absolutely no way of getting through, regardless of how many COFRS or clones are in play. That doesn't increase his damage output whatsoever on powers of this level.

And we have witnessed countless times in this manga that the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 8, 2013)

Based on feats....Naruto can do what, what?

Yea, let's start using the proper feats Naruto fans.

Naruto was 

Similar too.....

yea, let's start using the proper feats Naruto fans.

Hashirama dealing with TBB

The problem with the feats argument as Naruto's FEATS implicate the complete opposite of what many of you are arbitrating.

BM Naruto = BM + SM Naruto in terms of feats, and both proved to be just as susceptible to WOOD.

Naruto's BM Tanked Juubi's six laser beams, but PROVED TO BE NO MORE DURABLE THAN A LESSER SUSANO'O, IN WHICH Hashi manage to best.   

And did Mr. Panther just state that FRS slices through the statues arms?LMAO   Naruto's FRS couldn't even slice through the Kyuubi, mate.

The same Kyuubi in which was protected by the Susano'o, in which Hashi's FIST DESTROYED.

Naruto's thirteen clones would get fodderized, as they've done ALL MANGA LONG AGAINST THE BIG BOYS, hence is what he isn't using them. And it's not as if Hashi doesn't have clones himself, LMAO.

Read the fine print opening, Naruto isn't on HASHI'S LEVEL. He hasn't been portrayed as such, nor has he done anything significant himself sense almost a 100 chapters ago. Read the fine print opening, the difference between Naruto and Obito was the former had friends AND HELP. On his own, Naruto hasn't produced much success against any of the big boys.

Stop it Naruto fans. Stop giving Iphr0z3nI a platform to school you on your fav. Feat wise Naruto isn't even close, as Hashi's best FEAT HAS HIM SOLOING THE VERY THING IN WHICH NARUTO AND SASUKE utilized to beat Juubito. That makes this an open and shut case. The lack on distinguishable factors between BM Naruto, BSM Naruto, and 100% Kurama BSM(the later is ficitonal), is all theoretic's at this point. Canonically the addition of SM has only proven useful in harming Juubito and nothing else.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 8, 2013)

Base Hashirama was casually blocking and redirecting bijū-dama from a full Kyūbi. Sennin mōdō might help Naruto's attack do a bit more damage to his mokuton structures, but the fact that they blocked them so easily even in base on top of Hashirama also being in sennin mōdō leads me to believe that there isn't really going to be much of a difference here.

Hashirama also effectively one shot the Kyūbi with perfect Susano'o coating once he entered sage mode. I'm not seeing what's stopping Hashirama from pushing it's own attacks back onto it like it did with Madara; especially considering Naruto can't make the bijū-damas uncatchable with Susano'o blades, or block the redirected attacks like Madara could.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Base Hashirama was casually blocking and redirecting bijū-dama from a full Kyūbi. Sennin mōdō might help Naruto's attack do a bit more damage to his mokuton structures, but the fact that they blocked them so easily even in base on top of Hashirama also being in sennin mōdō leads me to believe that there isn't really going to be much of a difference here.
> 
> Hashirama also effectively one shot the Kyūbi with perfect Susano'o coating once he entered sage mode. I'm not seeing what's stopping Hashirama from pushing it's own attacks back onto it like it did with Madara; especially considering Naruto can't make the bijū-damas uncatchable with Susano'o blades, or block the redirected attacks like Madara could.



- Naruto's resengan destroyed obito's black shield which is at least two tiers above Hashi's wood. 
- So, are you suggesting that Hashi's wood is stronger than obito's black spheres? 
- I don't think 1000 punch is one, but regardless, we all know that the jin is stronger than the Bijuu.
- Because Narutp can redirect them against as he did the 5 Bijuus? 
- Yeah, but he can use his speed to dodge Hashi's attack and then fire them off.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2013)

Distance is a big factor, 100% BSM Kurama can create a bijuudama twice as large (arguably) and has an attack extension twice as large as BM Naruto. 

I've argued BM Naruto could defeat Hashirama, there is no question he defeats him with double the chakra powerup, double the size and overall enhancement of Natural Energy.

Madara defeated Hashirama in the conventional battle, he was simply tricked into defeat at the very end. With that being said, he also held back a great deal allowing Hashirama to enter SM and summon the statue. There's also the fact that he clearly did not abuse his PS slash early in the battle and pretty much let Hashirama take Kurama out of the fight. 

That's another debate entirely though. You can be sure Naruto doesn't make the same mistakes.


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> was
> 
> Similar too.....


 God Tree -----> Moukuton dragon that would get trashed by a single FRS or chakra roar if BM Naruto had intel and didn't decide to wrestle it.



> yea, let's start using the proper feats Naruto fans.
> 
> Hashirama dealing with TBB


 oh wow he catched a standart bijuudama from Kurama.... let's see how he deals with 5 of those in rapid succesion when his Moukuton Mokujin has only 2 arms.



> *BM Naruto = BM + SM Naruto *in terms of feats, and both proved to be just as susceptible to WOOD.


 stop spreading you're biased opinion as fact when it's manga canon that SM is a stat booster



> Naruto's BM Tanked Juubi's six laser beams, but PROVED TO BE NO MORE DURABLE THAN A LESSER SUSANO'O, IN WHICH Hashi manage to best.


 That "lesser" susanoo was being powered up more than 3x by Naruto's chakra cloack + Juugo's CS, still doesn't change the fact that BM Naruto tanked a more powerfull attack than Buddha's 1000 punches with just 6 of his tails.



> And did Mr. Panther just state that FRS slices through the statues arms?LMAO   Naruto's FRS couldn't even slice through the Kyuubi, mate.


 do you by any chance have a lack of reading comprehension ? that "mate" is SM FRS. What I was talking about was This BM Naruto's FRS casually slicing V2 Juubi's tails which tanked it's own country busting Bijuudama



> Naruto's thirteen clones would get fodderized, as they've done ALL



First of all Madara =/= Hashirama. 

Hashirama doesn't have sharingan to track fast objects like BM Naruto + he also doesn't have Madara's fan

And even if he had his fan he wouldn't be able to replicate that feat, the first time that BM clone didn't have any knowledge about the fan repelling attacks, with knowledge the clone can easily use his chakra arm to guide his mini-tbb around Hashi/Madz fan and strike from behind. 



> MANGA LONG AGAINST THE BIG BOYS


 what exactly are you trying to show here ? that SM clone sacrificed himself to safe Kakashi at the last moment and got popped by Juubi's tail. Which i dodn't see Hashirama replicating when he has to concentrate on BM Naruto



> . And it's not as if Hashi doesn't have clones himself, LMAO.


 and it's not as if Hashi's clones aren't fodder lvl that got pierced by a sitting madara 
come again when Hashirama's clones are displaying kage lvl feats and running around battlefields owning Kage lvl opponents with minimal help.


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## Kyu (Nov 8, 2013)

Eh, depends on what Naruto is able to dish out with a 100% Kyuubi+BSM. It'll be an uphill battle for Naruto, Hashirama is a horrible match up for him(mokuton being a Biju's kryptonite and all). We don't know how much stronger BSM Naruto is with both Ying+Yang Kurama so it's difficult to say really.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2013)

I don't think his durability is a factor Panther. Personally I think the statue would decimate Naruto even with these powerups, but that's not important.

You were right in majority of your analysis as I don't believe Naruto would have to suffer a single hit from the Statue because he will attack before it's in place.

Depending on the distance he could fire up to 20 bijuudama before the statue is even summoned. He could blitz the distance before the statue is even ready to move- all depending on the distance.

Anything less than 500m I do not think Hashirama would survive the initial 10 second exchange. Madara was several kilometers away from Hashirama when his statue was summoned and allowed him to walk it into attacking range for a firefight.

Kurama is fully aware of what the statue and Hashirama are capable of, there is simply no way he and Naruto allow it to be summoned, and if it should be, allow it within attacking range when they have the ability to manifest Ultra Superbijuudamas from afar and shunshin away at gargantuan speeds.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

I like how Madara and Hashirama are casually having a detailed conversation while dodging the God tree effortlessly, while BM Naruto instantly got caught. That kinda gets overlooked quite frequently.

Also that Hashirama clone statement. Dumbest thing I've seen in ages. Hashirama is focusing all of his chakra on 2 top tier barriers that have been restraining the entire Juubi. & his clones are automatically top tier ? Does anybody forget that it's been confirmed that clones just divide the chakra up, but sustain speed, strength, durabilty, and skill. So his clones are the exact same as him, meaning the only reason they got soloed was due to him focusing on an advanced barrier 

Madara even confirmed this by saying " your focusing to my attention on your real body." 

And EVEN if were to assume his clones were equal to himself, they only got fodderizing because Madara is on the same level as Hashirama. We have a DIRECT example of such with part 1 Naruto and Sasuke. They were relatively equal In strength yet , Sasuke was fodderizing countless clones. The same clone Justu Naruto uses now. We ready know that if Current Naruto and Sasuke fought, his clones would he useless .


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I like how Madara and Hashirama are casually having a detailed conversation while dodging the God tree effortlessly, while BM Naruto instantly got caught. That kinda gets overlooked quite frequently.
> .



Naruto was at the center, Hashi was far away from it.  Also, Naruto has more chakra than Hashi
and that's why the roots were more against him, unlike hashi who was attacked by just small
one.


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> BM Naruto hasn't displayed power that can bust Hashi's Mokuton: Hobi that withstood the impact of Kurama's bijuudama at point blank without a scratch.


 Moukuton: Hobi didn't get hit at point blank by the TBB, it tanked the TBB blast radius by going underground since we see only it's face emerge from the ground after the blast.



> *And if powered by Sage Mode? Naruto has absolutely no way of getting through*, regardless of how many COFRS or clones are in play. That doesn't increase his damage output whatsoever on powers of this level.QUOTE]


 Moukuton: Hobi is nothing more then a defense jutsu and hasn't shown to have a body.... If Moukuton: Hobi did have a body then SM Hashirama would be stupid to use his Moukuton : human construct that got destroyed by a standart TBB blast instead of Moukuton: Hobi. And yes 13 RM clones spamming FRS + 3 BM clones Spamming COFRS as big as summons are gonna make a big difference.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Elia said:


> Naruto was at the center, Hashi was far away from it.  Also, Naruto has more chakra than Hashi
> and that's why the roots were more against him, unlike hashi who was attacked by just small
> one.



There chakra is comparable. Naruto also had a good amount of time to escape.

And does that really matter. Remember BM Naruto>>>>>>>>>>Hashirama in terms of speed so the distance shouldn't matter at all. Especially the fact that Hashirama isn't being pressured at all, and is fighting Madara at the same, while his other clones are dodging other branches and leading the alliance.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> There chakra is comparable. Naruto also had a good amount of time to escape.
> 
> And does that really matter. Remember BM Naruto>>>>>>>>>>Hashirama in terms of speed so the distance shouldn't matter at all. Especially the fact that Hashirama isn't being pressured at all, and is fighting Madara at the same, while his other clones are dodging other branches and leading the alliance.



the comparable is the chakra that Naruto gave to the alliance + that was before BSM. 

but Naruto was not using his speed, but rather was preparing to attack with the TBB. I don't recall
any of Hashi's clones dodging anything @.@


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> I like how Madara and Hashirama are casually having a detailed conversation while dodging the God tree effortlessly, while BM Naruto instantly got caught. That kinda gets overlooked quite frequently.


 Yeah whatever... just ignore the fact that Hashirama and Madara are Edo's and dodn't have to worry about jack shit while BSM Naruto was at the epicenter



> Also that Hashirama clone statement. Dumbest thing I've seen in ages. Hashirama is focusing all of his chakra on 2 top tier barriers that have been restraining the entire Juubi. & his clones are automatically top tier ? Does anybody forget that it's been confirmed that clones just divide the chakra up, but sustain speed, strength, durabilty, and skill. So his clones are the exact same as him, meaning the only reason they got soloed was due to him focusing on an advanced barrier
> Madara even confirmed this by saying " your focusing to my attention on your real body."


 And in this fight Hashirama will be concentrating on BM Naruto... so his clones are gonna be fodder and get destroyed by Kage lvl SM and RM clones.



> And EVEN if were to assume his clones were equal to himself, they only got fodderizing because Madara is on the same level as Hashirama. We have a DIRECT example of such with part 1 Naruto and Sasuke. They were relatively equal In strength yet , Sasuke was fodderizing countless clones. The same clone Justu Naruto uses now. *We ready know that if Current Naruto and Sasuke fought, his clones would he useless *.


   are you freaking serious?


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Panther said:


> Yeah whatever... just ignore the fact that Hashirama and Madara are Edo's and dodn't have to worry about jack shit while BSM Naruto was at the epicenter
> 
> BASE Hashirama had still yet to be caught. He basically has been dancing around them effortlessly.
> 
> ...



When the fuck has clones ever pressured Sasuke in a battle against Naruto?


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2013)

Naruto nearly ended a 5 nation ninja war with the utilization of clones. Hashirama killed Madara with a clone distraction. Jiraiya beat 3 of Nagato's paths because of a clone. 

Clones will always be useful. They multiply the effectiveness of a ninja in almost every category as they are capable of doing almost anything the original can.

The only clones I've seen thus far in the manga that were clearly inferior to the original were Hashirama's, and that was only based on the fact that Madara thought they weren't worth his time and managed to destroy several of them without PS. 

I can confidently say Naruto's clones are very close if not equal to his own output. The only thing they lack showing is the ability to utilize BM, but for obvious reasons- that would be too broken.


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## ueharakk (Nov 8, 2013)

Kai said:


> BM Naruto hasn't displayed power that can bust Hashi's Mokuton: Hobi that withstood the impact of Kurama's bijuudama at point blank without a scratch.


it wasn't hit directly, it took on the mere blast radius of the technique and it was most likely underground when it did so as the blast only dug up enough ground to expose the technique's head.



Kai said:


> And if powered by Sage Mode? Naruto has absolutely no way of getting through, regardless of how many COFRS or clones are in play. That doesn't increase his damage output whatsoever on powers of this level.


Um, it most definitely does.  A direct hit from SM COFRS would destroy mokuhobi, it's significantly more concentrated than the blast mokuhobi survived as unlike bijuudama's the wind sphere of even the 50% FRS naruto used on kakuzu destroys any and all earth that come into contact with it.  



Kai said:


> And we have witnessed countless times in this manga that the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts.


Except that's not true for shadow clones as 1 base Naruto punching a transformed gaara does diddly squat to him while 1,000 base naruto clones beats the hell out of gaara.  By your 'the whole is always greater than the sum of its parts" logic, chapter one naruto would have stomped the hell out of Mizuki as he's greater than 1,000 base clones.

shadow clones merely divides the users chakra, it doesn't divide the user or his overall battle capacity, shadow clones increase the amount of power naruto can output at any given time.

As for the thread, Naruto handily wins.  He blocked the juubi's laser with just BM, that's an attack that's at least a tier more powerful than 9 bijuudamas.  Here he's got an avatar that's multiple times larger than the one before and more powerful due to sage mode.  Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu isn't surviving a senpou super bijuudama, nor is it catching an attack that's at least twice the size of 100% Kurama and throwing it back at him all the while dealing with Chou oodama FRS spam from however many clones naruto puts in his tails.  This ends with hashirama getting incinerated.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Base Hashirama was casually blocking and redirecting bijū-dama from a full Kyūbi.


he caught normal bijuudamas small enough for his constructs to palm one at a time and when one exploded it whiped out his three most powerful base techniques.  That's not casually doing anything.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Sennin mōdō might help Naruto's attack do a bit more damage to his mokuton structures, but the fact that they blocked them so easily even in base on top of Hashirama also being in sennin mōdō leads me to believe that there isn't really going to be much of a difference here.


Um, except for the fact that mokujin, mokuryu and FTW were all obliterated by one normal bijuudama going off.  Sure if Naruto just lollygags around and fires one normal bijuudama at a time for the whole fight, that's what's going to happen, but obviously if Naruto can rapidfire them or make ones that are double the size of 100% Kurama Hashirama isn't going to be able to do any of what you are postulating he does.



Atlantic Storm said:


> Hashirama also effectively one shot the Kyūbi with perfect Susano'o coating once he entered sage mode. I'm not seeing what's stopping Hashirama from pushing it's own attacks back onto it like it did with Madara; especially considering Naruto can't make the bijū-damas uncatchable with Susano'o blades, or block the redirected attacks like Madara could.


How about the fact that naruto can rapidfire them?  How about the fact that naruto has uncatchable nukes in the form of BSM COFRS or even BSM FRS.  How about the fact that naruto can fire super bijuudamas which are too big to be caught.  How about the fact that Naruto's durability feats crap on Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu barrage output.  How about the fact that Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu's durability feats get crapped on by BSM super bijuudama's power output? 

Geeze, if you have to pretty much ignore all of Naruto's abilities or feats in order for Hashirama to win, then i'm pretty sure HAshirama loses.


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> When the fuck has clones ever pressured Sasuke in a battle against Naruto?


 The reason why Naruto's clones where fodderized in part one is because people like Sasuke - Kimi and Neji all had better taijutsu than Naruto and his clones were fodder lvl at that time. current Base Naruto is on par with Sasuke in base stats and would stomp Sasuke in a taijutsu fight if Naruto were to spam bunshin that all have the same skil as the Original who's on par with base Sasuke.


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Nov 8, 2013)

you had to restrict Naruto.

he still takes it mid difficulty.





Likes boss said:


> When the fuck has clones ever pressured Sasuke in a battle against Naruto?


hrmm? the roof top fight and Vote. oh, and Naruto no longer sucks so his clones aren't near as weak.


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## Krippy (Nov 8, 2013)

Unless Kishi pulls some shit like SM prevents Kurama from being surpressed, then Hashirama still rapes. Mokuton: Hotei, Mokujin, and Shinsuusenju are too much for Nardo to handle without something that negates surpression.



Panther said:


> The reason why Naruto's clones where fodderized in part one is because people like Sasuke - Kimi and Neji all had better taijutsu than Naruto and his clones were fodder lvl at that time. current Base Naruto is on par with Sasuke in base stats and would stomp Sasuke in a taijutsu fight if Naruto were to spam bunshin that all have the same skil as the Original who's on par with base Sasuke.



Nah, his base clones aint shit. It's been 400 chapters, give it a rest.


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Nah, his base clones aint shit. It's been 400 chapters, give it a rest.


 Concession accepted as you didn't refute my argument aside from stating that his clones are shit without backing it up with evidence, when in fact Naruto has shown multiple times in the manga that he has improved in base stats to content with sasuke and that his clones have improved to the point that they dodn't pop when flung away by madara's susanoo

but what can you except from someone as biased as you who believes that the little sauce can take on RM Naruto in base .


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## Raiken (Nov 8, 2013)

Remember, this is 100% Kyuubi in Naruto, he's gotten the other half from Minato in this battle.
Which was shown to be around 3x as big as 50%. The same size as Madara's Perfect Susano'o roughly. 

Do you think I should restrict Hashirama's: Bijuu Chakra Suppression?


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## Krippy (Nov 8, 2013)

Panther said:


> Concession accepted as you didn't refute my argument aside from stating that his clones are shit when Naruto has shown multiple times to have improved in base stats to content with sasuke and that his clones have improved to the point that they dodn't pop when flung away by madara's susanoo



Concession accepted as you didn't provide any evidence in the first place that Base clones can do anything worth while with out Kurama's help.

But there's not much to expect from nardo wankers these days I guess 



> but what can you except from someone as biased as you who believes that the little sauce can take on RM Naruto in base .



If Itachi can do it, so can alot of characters I guess


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## Panther (Nov 8, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Concession accepted as you didn't provide any evidence in the first place that Base clones can do anything worth while with out Kurama's help.


 Concession accepted as you still haven't given any evidence that naruto's clones are shit and that they haven't improved over the last 400chapters aside from stating your biased opinion as fact.



> If Itachi can do it, so can alot of characters I guess


 so you agree that RM Naruto would curbstomp the sauce if RM Naruto is'nt restricted only to 7% of his chakra and to talking instead of easily crushing the sauce.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 8, 2013)

Naruto wins mid diff. Wood dragon is destroyed by clones if it manages to catch Naruto. Any base mokuton is easily destroyed by COFRS. The gates won't be able to do shit since naruto has danger sensing and can easily avoid them. The wood god is the only problem but a super TBB vaporizes the entire thing. Then Naruto proceeds to obliterate hashirama who won't be able to do anything to defend himself. By feats even without the other half of the kyuubi naruto could take this.



Krippy said:


> If Itachi can do it, so can alot of characters I guess


You can't be serious. Even SM naruto would wreck base itachi and base sasuke let alone KCM Naruto. They can't even hurt KCM naruto in base.


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## Jagger (Nov 8, 2013)

The problem with Naruto beating Hashirama isn't about fire power, but because Hashirama is basically the kryptonite of every single Jinchuuriki out there. Even if Naruto gets the other half of Kurama, half of his power are basically crippled away because of Hashirama's ability to suppress the power of Bijuu.

Things like Bijuu Mode are kind of disadvantageous against Hashi because it can be easily caught by him and get its chakra sucked away. 

But, Naruto will win this. Not that as easy people make it to be.


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## ReverseZero12 (Nov 8, 2013)

It's kind of tough to say at this point because we haven't really seen how power 100% Kyuubi BSM Naruto EXACTLY is. If I were to give him a ballpark power level, it would definitely be around hashirama's and edo madara's level. Without the other part of the kyuubi, naruto isn't that close to there level regardless of whether he uses BSM or just regular BM, especially since Hashirama beat EMS Madara+Kyuubi cloaked with susanoo which is obviously far above 50% BM/BSM Naruto 

I'm inclined towards hashirama winning with extremely high high difficulty for now.


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## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Panther said:


> The reason why Naruto's clones where fodderized in part one is because people like Sasuke - Kimi and Neji all had better taijutsu than Naruto and his clones were fodder lvl at that time. current Base Naruto is on par with Sasuke in base stats and would stomp Sasuke in a taijutsu fight if Naruto were to spam bunshin that all have the same skil as the Original who's on par with base Sasuke.



Lol tf? Why were his clones fodder back then but so powerful now ? It's the same Justu, literally nothing has changed about it. That makes no sense.

And at the Roof Top battle Naruto and Sasuke were extremely close in taijustu skill but 10's of his clones were getting destroyed by Sasuke effortlessly.


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## Raiken (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> Lol tf? Why were his clones fodder back then but so powerful now ? It's the same Justu, literally nothing has changed about it. That makes no sense.
> 
> And at the Roof Top battle Naruto and Sasuke were extremely close in taijustu skill but 10's of his clones were getting destroyed by Sasuke effortlessly.


Not about the Clone Jutsu it self, but about his increased skill in it's usage, combined with new techniques and abilities that can be used with them.


----------



## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Not about the Clone Jutsu it self, but about his increased skill in it's usage, combined with new techniques and abilities that can be used with them.



No. His shadow clone technique is exactly how it was back then. HE has gotten stronger but so has Sasuke.

If they both are equal, his clones should be just as fodder now as they were back then.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 8, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> No. His shadow clone technique is exactly how it was back then. HE has gotten stronger but so has Sasuke.
> 
> If they both are equal, his clones should be just as fodder now as they were back then.


That is clearly not the case, how good Clones are depends on the skill and abilities of the user, and the strategy you employ in the Clones usage.

Look at Naruto's Dat Clone: Partially defeated the Edo 2nd Tsuchikage with Gaara's support. Defeated the Edo 3rd Raikage with Dodai's support.
In in regards to how hard it is to kill/beat something: Edo-Tensei >> Living Being >> Clone: Yet here we have Naruto making use of Clones and with a little bit of support, defeating Edo-Tensei Kages. And he solely stopped Madara's Jukai Koutan, after those fights with the Kages.
Dat Clone

Also the strategy employed with Clones since fighting Kakuzu onwards is very impressive. Usage of feints and trickery with Clones at high levels against: Kakuzu, Pain, Kurama; primarily.


----------



## Veracity (Nov 8, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> That is clearly not the case, how good Clones are depends on the skill and abilities of the user, and the strategy you employ in the Clones usage.
> 
> Look at Naruto's Dat Clone: Partially defeated the Edo 2nd Tsuchikage with Gaara's support. Defeated the Edo 3rd Raikage with Dodai's support.
> In in regards to how hard it is to kill/beat something: Edo-Tensei >> Living Being >> Clone: Yet here we have Naruto making use of Clones and with a little bit of support, defeating Edo-Tensei Kages. And he solely stopped Madara's Jukai Koutan, after those fights with the Kages.
> ...



All because he is naturally that strong.

The usage of a clone Justu is just splitting your chakra up. You sustain the same skill, intelligence, speed, strength, etc. So everyone has the exact same clone. Meaning Jirayia < Naruto isn't true in clone Justu. Maybe amount of clones; Naruto > Jirayia 

Naruto mastered his clone Justu back in part 1. NOTHING has changed about his Justu. He himself has become powerful enough to split his chakra into several clones to defeat multiple Kages.

He also has gotten more battle tactical(using clones more strategically) but his Justu is the same.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 8, 2013)

I will virtually slap anyone who actually responds to the nonsense above.
Some people are meant to be ignored.


----------



## Coppur (Nov 8, 2013)

I favor Hashirama in most situations. Hashi is a great counter to Naruto and jinchūriki in general. Making him a rather bad matchup for Nardo, even with the full Kyuubi, I don't think it will make too much of a difference.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 9, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> Do you think I should restrict Hashirama's: Bijuu Chakra Suppression?



No you don't have to restrict that as it never comes into play against a naruto with knowledge.  

That's exactly why everyone in this thread who has argued that suppression plays a significant role in the fight never addresses how Hashirama actually pulls it off, they'll simply say "hashirama can suppress bijuus, BM Naruto uses a bijuu, Hashirama suppresses BM" the equivalent of saying "naruto can put a kunai in someone's head, Hashirama has a head, Naruto puts a kunai in Hashirama's head."


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 10, 2013)

SM hashirama wins extreme difficultly
I don't see how naruto has any hope of beating the budda that thing completely destroys him. Bijuu damas are reflected and hashirama matches naruto with whatever number of clones.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> SM hashirama wins extreme difficultly
> I don't see how naruto has any hope of beating the budda that thing completely destroys him. Bijuu damas are reflected and hashirama matches naruto with whatever number of clones.



How can the Buddha attack Naruto to begin with? 
there is a HUGE gap in speed, you can't destroy what you can't hit.


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> How can the Buddha attack Naruto to begin with?
> there is a HUGE gap in speed, you can't destroy what you can't hit.



I'm not talking about BSM naruto I'm talking about  naruto when he uses the chakra to resemble kurama. If naruto brings out kurama it gets stomped by the budda. What also matters is the distance of this battle if the distance is large enough no matter what the Buddha could attack naruto. If narutos close enough the Buddhas attacks won't work.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> SM hashirama wins extreme difficultly
> I don't see how naruto has any hope of beating the budda that thing completely destroys him. Bijuu damas are reflected and hashirama matches naruto with whatever number of clones.


Naruto can just destroy the hands with COFRS spam and nuke the buddha with a super TBB. Similar to what Madara did.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Aizen said:


> I'm not talking about BSM naruto I'm talking about  naruto when he uses the chakra to resemble kurama. If naruto brings out kurama it gets stomped by the budda. What also matters is the distance of this battle if the distance is large enough no matter what the Buddha could attack naruto. If narutos close enough the Buddhas attacks won't work.



Again, even is Naruto used the Kurama avatar, how is the Buddha going to stomp him if he
can't hit him? Naruto can easily dodge any attack from it. 

Also, 50% of Kurama's chakra was able to tank Juubi's TBB. Now this it 100% of Kurama with
SM. Are you going to tell me that Hashi's Buddha is stronger than the Jubbi's TBB.


----------



## Ashi (Nov 10, 2013)

Can't hashirama use his gracious gates to pin naruto? I mean Naruto might have greater speed seeing as he could somewhat keep up with ten tailed obito


----------



## Lord Aizen (Nov 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Again, even is Naruto used the Kurama avatar, how is the Buddha going to stomp him if he
> can't hit him? Naruto can easily dodge any attack from it.
> 
> Also, 50% of Kurama's chakra was able to tank Juubi's TBB. Now this it 100% of Kurama with
> SM. Are you going to tell me that Hashi's Buddha is stronger than the Jubbi's TBB.



What you mean the Buddha will hit naruto if he is using the kurama avatar how could it not hit him. Kurama isn't that fast and I'm sure the Buddha is most likely not slow at all. He's not dodging anything from the Buddha it is absolutely massive it will hit him if naruto uses the avatar.
Yea that feat everyone brings up. The difference is once the Buddha starts pounding on kurama it won't stop until there is nothing left. It's going to beat down kurama till there is no more cloak and naruto is implanted into the ground like pancake. Juubis beam is much stronger but at the same time the juubi only used it for a small amount of time, the duration of the technique also matters. If the juubi kept on beaming kurama there wouldn't of been anything left. in this case that's what I see the Buddha doing


----------



## Kai (Nov 10, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Can't hashirama use his gracious gates to pin naruto? I mean Naruto might have greater speed seeing as he could somewhat keep up with ten tailed obito


Good point; the issue there would be jutsu execution speed, which Naruto should be able to avoid with his speed and paramount sensing ability.

If caught however, Naruto may not have the power to get out unless he calls upon the power of the bijuus.


----------



## Misaki Yata (Nov 10, 2013)

Hashirama wins.

Naruto is literally fueling Hashirama's Mokuton.


----------



## Krippy (Nov 10, 2013)

Panther said:


> Concession accepted as you still haven't given any evidence that naruto's clones are shit and that they haven't improved over the last 400chapters aside from stating your biased opinion as fact.



The burden of proof is on you who said that his clones weren't shit in the first place 

But I didn't expect much from a shit poster like yourself.



> so you agree that RM Naruto would curbstomp the sauce if RM Naruto is'nt restricted only to 7% of his chakra and to talking instead of easily crushing the sauce.



you're the one arguing that clones his clones aren't fodder, why couldn't he get the edge on Itachi with just a fraction of his chakra? Cuz he aint shit ofc.

Btw show scans of RM Naruto's "godly taijutsu" or stop posting. You suck at this.



> You can't be serious. Even SM naruto would wreck base itachi and base sasuke let alone KCM Naruto.



Lel. Just....Lel.



> They can't even hurt KCM naruto in base.



They dont need to hurt him, just keep up, which they can do easily.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> you're the one arguing that clones his clones aren't fodder, why couldn't he get the edge on Itachi with just a fraction of his chakra? Cuz he aint shit ofc.


 Maybe because he was trying to talk to him?




> Lel. Just....Lel.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No they can't keep up with him, unless you can show me itachi or sasuke reacting to something faster than V2 Ei. His physical strength and speed are all that's needed to stomp them.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> They dont need to hurt him, just keep up, which they can do easily.




Sasuke can.

Itachi cannot if Naruto's at full Chakra using Shunshin.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

You'd have to be a fool or a wanker to believe Naruto can defeat Hashirama. 

His power perfectly counters Naruto's. Kyuubi < Mokuton. Sage Mode meets Sage Mode. Senju meets Uzumaki. Hashirama base stats > Naruto base stats. Hashirama SM feats > SM Naruto feats. 

Hashi still wears the crown. I wont go into real detail here since other have already done a fine job of it.


----------



## Panther (Nov 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> The burden of proof is on you who said that his clones weren't shit in the first place


 Nope. You stated that they haven't improved over the last 400 chapters and that they are shit, and i asked for you to prove it, thus burden on proof is on you.



> But you dodn't have to expect much from a shitty poster like myself


 trust me i ain't expecting anything from a poster who's talking out of his ass 



> you're the one arguing that clones his clones aren't fodder, why couldn't he get the edge on Itachi with just a fraction of his chakra? Cuz he aint shit ofc.


 seeing as you didn't refute my argument that an unrestricted KCM Naruto that doesn't decide to casually chat with the enemie and instead fights would curbstomp base fagsuke, then you agree that fagsuke get's curbstomped. 



> *Btw show scans of RM Naruto's "godly taijutsu"* or stop posting. You suck at this


 stop putting words in my mouth. I never stated RM Naruto's taijutsu is godly, so do you care to point that out where i said that or are you talking out of your ass like you alwas do. P.S you should improve in your trolling skills cuz your shit at it.



> Lel. Just....Lel.


 I know right... Just loling and no argument aside from talking out of your ass like the shitty poster you are


----------



## Trojan (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> You'd have to be a fool or a wanker to believe Naruto can defeat Hashirama.
> 
> His power perfectly counters Naruto's. *Kyuubi > Mokuton*. Sage Mode meets Sage Mode. Senju meets Uzumaki. Hashirama base stats > Naruto base stats. Hashirama SM feats > SM Naruto feats.
> 
> Hashi still wears the crown. I wont go into real detail here since other have already done a fine job of it.



a fool or Hashi's wankers, no? 

I liked how you spelled it. lol 

Anyway, go again and see what Naruto did against obito who fodderized the Mr overrated Hashi
with no effort.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> You'd have to be a fool or a wanker to believe Naruto can defeat Hashirama.
> 
> His power perfectly counters Naruto's. Kyuubi > Mokuton.


So Yamato > BM Naruto by your logic?



Lord Valgaav said:


> Sage Mode meets Sage Mode. Senju meets Uzumaki. Hashirama base stats > Naruto base stats. Hashirama SM feats > SM Naruto feats.


That doesn't make any sense.  Them being senju and uzumaki is irrelevant to comparing who'd win or who doesn't.

I have no idea why you'd compare SM Hashirama's feats to SM Naruto's feats when SM Naruto isn't fighting SM Hashirama in this thread, it's BSM Naruto, and if you want to compare their feats, then BSM Naruto handily wins as all his BM jutsu are more than doubled in power and thus he'd be popping out Bijuudaamas *more powerful than this* which is something that Hashirama's mokuton can't catch because it's too big, nor can it block since it's too powerful.




Lord Valgaav said:


> Hashi still wears the crown. I wont go into real detail here since other have already done a fine job of it.


the others you claim that have done a 'fine job' have pretty much said "mokuton suppresses bijuu, Naruto uses a bijuu, therefore Hashirama suppresses Naruto" the same argument that would lead you to the conclusion that Yamato beats BSM Naruto and the same logic that would lead you to conclude that base naruto > base Hashirama.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> So Yamato > BM Naruto by your logic?
> 
> 
> That doesn't make any sense.  Them being senju and uzumaki is irrelevant to comparing who'd win or who doesn't.
> ...


i would like a direct feat that shows this.


----------



## Krippy (Nov 10, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Maybe because he was trying to talk to him?



Still waiting for those scans showing RM naruto's god level taijustu.



> No they can't keep up with him, unless you can show me itachi or sasuke reacting to something faster than V2 Ei. His physical strength and speed are all that's needed to stomp them.



>2013
>people still think naruto's shunshin is good enough to constantly use during a fight, and he will always open with his max speed



Rocky said:


> Sasuke can.
> 
> Itachi cannot if Naruto's at full Chakra using Shunshin.



Hmm. I dont think Naruto is skilled enough to engage someone in taijustu and use his max shunshin at the same time. It could be PIS but whatever.



Panther said:


> Nope. You stated that they haven't improved over the last 400 chapters and that they are shit, and i asked for you to prove it, thus burden on proof is on you.



Nope, I said they were shit 400 chapters ago and their still shit today. The only evidence I need is his lack of decent feats in base mode.



> trust me i ain't expecting anything from a poster who's talking out of his ass



cute neg, I think someone's rustled :33



> seeing as you didn't refute my argument that an unrestricted KCM Naruto that doesn't decide to casually chat with the enemie and instead fights would curbstomp base fagsuke, then you agree that fagsuke get's curbstomped.



I did refute it, Sasuke, Itachi, Minato, Tobirama, Kakashi, and anyone with their level of reactions and speed can keep up with him even if its only momentarily.



> stop putting words in my mouth. I never stated RM Naruto's taijutsu is godly, so do you care to point that out where i said that or are you talking out of your ass like you always do. P.S you should improve in your trolling skills cuz your shit at it.



Itachi had a 4.5 in taijustu and he kept up fine thanks to his base speed and sharingan. Kakashi and Sasuke are at a similar level and also have sharingan. Minato and Tobirama have FTG. They should keep up with his non-shunshin speed just fine. If the shunshin occurs, Susano'o/Kamui/Hiraishin counters it.

you're welcome 



> I know right... Just loling and no argument aside from talking out of your ass like the shitty poster you are



Says the guy with disabled rep 

Hashirama's clones should be able to stall Naruto's clones if they even get close enough.

until further notice: SM Hashirama > BSM Naruto > Base Hashirama ~ BM Naruto


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> i would like a direct feat that shows this.



*BM rasengan before it's enhanced by SM.* *BM raesngan after it's enhanced by SM.*


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> a fool or Hashi's wankers, no?
> 
> I liked how you spelled it. lol
> 
> ...



I Globbed up. 

Fixed it though. 

And Obito fodderized a Wood Clone. 



ueharakk said:


> So Yamato > BM Naruto by your logic?



Yamato's Mokuton like everyone else's is far inferior to Hashi's. Don't even try that.





ueharakk said:


> That doesn't make any sense.  Them being senju and uzumaki is irrelevant to comparing who'd win or who doesn't.



Just pointing out how both have naturally strong bodies with large chakra pools. Basically just lining up their stats.




ueharakk said:


> I have no idea why you'd compare SM Hashirama's feats to SM Naruto's feats when SM Naruto isn't fighting SM Hashirama in this thread, it's BSM Naruto, and if you want to compare their feats, then BSM Naruto handily wins as all his BM jutsu are more than doubled in power and thus he'd be popping out Bijuudaamas *more powerful than this* which is something that Hashirama's mokuton can't catch because it's too big, nor can it block since it's too powerful.



I'm comparing them because since both have and use SM, I'm pointing out how it won't be an advantage for either. And since base Hashirama has shown stronger than 100% Kyuubi, there goes any advantage in power Naruto may have had.

Hashirama also knows Fuijutsu so he could just throw Gates on Naruto.




ueharakk said:


> the others you claim that have done a 'fine job' have pretty much said "mokuton suppresses bijuu, Naruto uses a bijuu, therefore Hashirama suppresses Naruto" the same argument that would lead you to the conclusion that Yamato beats BSM Naruto and the same logic that would lead you to conclude that base naruto > base Hashirama.



Again, Yamato's Mokuton is piss poor compared to Hashirama's.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> Yamato's Mokuton like everyone else's is far inferior to Hashi's. Don't even try that.


that's irrelevant though.  You said mokuton > Kurama, yamato has mokuton thus yamato > kurama.






Lord Valgaav said:


> I'm comparing them because since both have and use SM, I'm pointing out how it won't be an advantage for either. *And since base Hashirama has shown stronger than 100% Kyuubi, there goes any advantage in power Naruto may have had.*


The bolded isn't true at all the only reason Hashirama even survived against Kurama in base is because Madara was gracious enough to not use *rapidfire bijuudama* until Hashirama brought out Shinsuusenjuu.  And even if it were true, it wouldn't apply to BM Naruto since BM Naruto =/= Kurama.  SM Naruto was beating Kurama, it doesn't mean SM Naruto > BM Naruto does it?



Lord Valgaav said:


> Hashirama also knows Fuijutsu so he could just throw Gates on Naruto.


to which he either senses and shunshins away, breaks out of due to being a jinchuriki super powered by sennin mode, or does the same thing he did against mokuryu.





Lord Valgaav said:


> Again, Yamato's Mokuton is piss poor compared to Hashirama's.


Then don't say mokuton > Kurama you have to specify which mokuton is > Kurama.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's irrelevant though.  You said mokuton > Kurama, yamato has mokuton thus yamato > kurama.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


you need to stop talking about how strong you want naruto to be hypothetically.

i need some strength feats which straight up show that naruto can break the myoujinmon just like juubito did.

i need scans of naruto showing speed feats that indicates that he can dodge the gates that juubito couldnt(whom reacted to ftg with utter ease)

you basically just said that narutos physical strength is greater than the juubi. he has never shown strength like that so please stop with this nonsense.



ueharakk said:


> *BM rasengan before it's enhanced by SM.* *BM raesngan after it's enhanced by SM.*


im seeing no difference.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> that's irrelevant though.  You said mokuton > Kurama, yamato has mokuton thus yamato > kurama.



In a thread involving Hashirama and not Yamato, I would think it obvious which version I'm talking about. 





ueharakk said:


> The bolded isn't true at all the only reason Hashirama even survived against Kurama in base is because Madara was gracious enough to not use *rapidfire bijuudama* until Hashirama brought out Shinsuusenjuu.  And even if it were true, it wouldn't apply to BM Naruto since BM Naruto =/= Kurama.  SM Naruto was beating Kurama, it doesn't mean SM Naruto > BM Naruto does it?



100% Kurama may very well be stronger than 50% BM Naruto though. And SM Naruto defeated a weakened 50% Kyuubi. Even then he needed Kushina and Bee's help. 



ueharakk said:


> to which he either senses and shunshins away, breaks out of due to being a jinchuriki super powered by sennin mode, or does the same thing he did against mokuryu.



I'm suggesting Fuinjutsu Gates as a counter to a Bijuu-dama. Since one has to charge and the other just falls on a target. And its possible he could break free. But how long would it take? If its not automatically then that give Hashi enough time to end him.




ueharakk said:


> Then don't say mokuton > Kurama you have to specify which mokuton is > Kurama.



Come on dude. We're talking about Hashi for Grob sake.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> 100% Kurama may very well be stronger than 50% BM Naruto though.


Not by feats.   100% Kurama has less firepower, is flesh and blood, has less durability, can't do things like flash shunshin, and fire jutsu from his tails, use clones or even turn his tails into arms and extend them.

But anyways the OP said that this is 100% BM Naruto, not the Naruto in the manga.



Lord Valgaav said:


> And SM Naruto defeated a weakened 50% Kyuubi. Even then he needed Kushina and Bee's help.


No SM Naruto never needed anyone's help, Bee's assistance was only given to base naruto, Kushina's assistance wouldn't have even been needed if it were an actual fight instead of a chakra tug of war and even then she only assisted base naruto.




Lord Valgaav said:


> I'm suggesting Fuinjutsu Gates as a counter to a Bijuu-dama. Since one has to charge and the other just falls on a target. And its possible he could break free. But how long would it take? If its not automatically then that give Hashi enough time to end him.


Well, hashirama would pretty much have to have like none of his giant mokutons out in order to do that (especially not shinsuusenjuu) and if that's the case naruto doesn't need to charge a bijuudama or even go into full fox mode for that matter.





Lord Valgaav said:


> Come on dude. We're talking about Hashi for Grob sake.


well, hashirama has a ton of mokutons and some of them yamato possesses so you have to specify which ones.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 10, 2013)

Lmao.

As if I would take a single drop of my time to address these hard heads.

Ace. Where are you.
I need someone to push me to make proper posts.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> you need to stop talking about how strong you want naruto to be hypothetically.
> 
> i need some strength feats which straight up show that naruto can break the myoujinmon just like juubito did.


What strength feats has Juubito displayed that would show how much power it requires to break out of moujinmon?



Shinobi no Kami said:


> i need scans of naruto showing speed feats that indicates that he can dodge the gates that juubito couldnt(whom reacted to ftg with utter ease)


Juubito did not opt to dodge the gates, nor do the gates hitting a mindless juubito means it gets the feats of a concious juubito.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you basically just said that narutos physical strength is greater than the juubi. he has never shown strength like that so please stop with this nonsense.


It doesn't have to be greater than the juubi, juubito's physical strength isn't greater than the juubi's it's just more focused.  BSM Naruto was knocking away the juubi's chakra arms with his strength the same chakra arms that up and tore away the barrier that hashirama alone couldn't create.

Now Naruto is powered by 100% Kurama which makes him much stronger than what he is in canon.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> im seeing no difference.


First off, the rasengan in the first panel is in the middle of the page split, thus the vertical diameter of the technique would be the correct one not the horizontal diameter and thus the diameter of the rasengan in the first scan would only be comparable to the length of BSM Naruto's forearm.

And in the second scan it's clear as day that the powered up rasengan has a diameter more than double the length of BSM Naruto's forearm which conclusively proves the rasengan in the second scan is much larger than the one in the first scan.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Not by feats.   100% Kurama has less firepower, is flesh and blood, has less durability, can't do things like flash shunshin, and fire jutsu from his tails, use clones or even turn his tails into arms and extend them.
> 
> But anyways the OP said that this is 100% BM Naruto, not the Naruto in the manga.



All those feats are nice but when it comes to sheer fire power 100% Kyuubi should still logically be stronger. Its just never been given a proper fight where his opponent wasn't a perfect counter for him(Madara, Hashi, Minato), or he wasn't weakened(Naruto). 

And seeing as 100% BSM Naruto doesn't exist yet, I'm just gonna count  it and current Naruto as the same thing.




ueharakk said:


> No SM Naruto never needed anyone's help, Bee's assistance was only given to base naruto, Kushina's assistance wouldn't have even been needed if it were an actual fight instead of a chakra tug of war and even then she only assisted base naruto.



Fair enough. Kyuubi was still at 50% and weakened. 





ueharakk said:


> Well, hashirama would pretty much have to have like none of his giant mokutons out in order to do that (especially not shinsuusenjuu) and if that's the case naruto doesn't need to charge a bijuudama or even go into full fox mode for that matter.



And why is that? Was it stated he can't have any Mokuton structures out while using that jutsu? If its a chakra issue, you know Hashi has a fuckton so thats not even a problem.




ueharakk said:


> well, hashirama has a ton of mokutons and some of them yamato possesses so you have to specify which ones.



Ugh, fine.



Jak N Blak said:


> Lmao.
> 
> As if I would take a single drop of my time to address these hard heads.
> 
> ...



.....who are you?


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> All those feats are nice but when it comes to sheer fire power 100% Kyuubi should still logically be stronger. Its just never been given a proper fight where his opponent wasn't a perfect counter for him(Madara, Hashi, Minato), or he wasn't weakened(Naruto).


Logically it should, but it hasn't displayed more and that's even against Hashirama, so you can't gauge Hashiramas performance against 100% Kurama as a kind of measure for Hashirama vs BM Naruto if Kurama doesn't display as much firepower as BM Naruto.



Lord Valgaav said:


> And seeing as 100% BSM Naruto doesn't exist yet, I'm just gonna count  it and current Naruto as the same thing.


you can't count it out, it's a stipulation by the OP.  Thus you have to factor that in.  Whether you think it's a non-factor or not is up to you but you have to take it into account.





Lord Valgaav said:


> Fair enough. Kyuubi was still at 50% and weakened.


He was at 50%, he wasn't weakened until Naruto won.  But anyways since you agree to that, then you can't gauge BM Naruto as Kurama or vice versa since that would lead you to the conclusion that SM Naruto > BM Naruto which is something you just agreed isn't true.






Lord Valgaav said:


> And why is that? Was it stated he can't have any Mokuton structures out while using that jutsu? If its a chakra issue, you know Hashi has a fuckton so thats not even a problem.


Maintaining any jutsu especially sentient ones like mokuton requires not only constant chakra, but constant concentration.  Its the reason why naruto can't use too many shadow clones while he has other clones prepping sage mode.  

Hashirama hasn't performed his gates with mokuton around despite having all the reason to do so on multiple occasions (against EMS Madara, against rinnegan madara), thus unless he gives us reason to believe he can do so, the evidence is against his ability to do so.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> I Globbed up.
> 
> Fixed it though.
> 
> ...



your beloved Hashirama


What Hashi thinks about the jin's power?


Remember that the host is stronger than the bijuu + Naruto has SM as well 

No, he fodderized the REAL Hashirama 
*rapidfire bijuudama*
*rapidfire bijuudama*

Nice try though.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Nov 10, 2013)

put it like this Naruto was apart of the power that defeated Juubito, Hashirama admitted inferiority to him and didn't even participate in the battle, he's surpassed him by now


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Logically it should, but it hasn't displayed more and that's even against Hashirama, so you can't gauge Hashiramas performance against 100% Kurama as a kind of measure for Hashirama vs BM Naruto if Kurama doesn't display as much firepower as BM Naruto.



But I can if said Kurama was also being amped by Susanoo armor. 




ueharakk said:


> you can't count it out, it's a stipulation by the OP.  Thus you have to factor that in.  Whether you think it's a non-factor or not is up to you but you have to take it into account.



Fine whatever. 





ueharakk said:


> He was at 50%, he wasn't weakened until Naruto won.  But anyways since you agree to that, then you can't gauge BM Naruto as Kurama or vice versa since that would lead you to the conclusion that SM Naruto > BM Naruto which is something you just agreed isn't true.



He seemed pretty out of it even before they started fighting. 

Anyway I agree that SM Naruto can beat 50% Kyuubi who's of course weaker than 100% who is >/= BM Naruto who are both weaker than BSM Naruto current or 100%.

But 100% Kyuubi with PS Armor is likely stronger than BM Naruto without question.




ueharakk said:


> Maintaining any jutsu especially sentient ones like mokuton requires not only constant chakra, but constant concentration.  Its the reason why naruto can't use too many shadow clones while he has other clones prepping sage mode.
> 
> Hashirama hasn't performed his gates with mokuton around despite having all the reason to do so on multiple occasions (against EMS Madara, against rinnegan madara), thus unless he gives us reason to believe he can do so, the evidence is against his ability to do so.



But wouldn't that just be a matter of chakra control? 

Against Edo Madara I always count that was Kishi's way of keeping Hashi out of the fight so as to let the others shine. Which is why he and Madara spent most of the time just standing around talking. Against EMS Madara that was two on 1. If he tried to seal Kyuubi Madara would just destroy the Gates.



Elia said:


> your beloved Hashirama



Hashi is a humble guy. I mean thats the same guy who pats Kyuubi on the head and gets it to calm down. That statement doesn't mean much. 



Elia said:


> What Hashi thinks about the jin's power?
> 
> 
> Remember that the host is stronger than the bijuu + Naruto has SM as well



Okay....



Elia said:


> No, he fodderized the REAL Hashirama
> Blue samurai bridge
> Blue samurai bridge
> 
> Nice try though.



Those scans proved nothing.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Hmm. I dont think Naruto is skilled enough to engage someone in taijustu and use his max shunshin at the same time. It could be PIS but whatever.




Naruto did just that against Kisame when he first activated KCM. He hurt his foot though as he hadn't yet mastered the speed; he didn't have control of Shunshin,

I think that the moment he avoided the Raikage is the point in which he gained control of that flicker, so he should be able to blitz without hurting himself now. Itachi without Susano'o isn't doing shit against v2 Raikage level flickers. 

Sasuke can because of his recent feat of tracking Jubito (Bijuu-Sage Naruto level perceptual ability), but Itachi has nothing on that.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord Valgaav said:


> But I can if said Kurama was also being amped by Susanoo armor.


Sure you can, but then that's comparing Kyuusanoo to SM Hashirama, and of course Kurama loses to SM Hashirama.





Lord Valgaav said:


> Fine whatever.


if it's any consolation, I think current BSM Naruto loses to Hashirama.






Lord Valgaav said:


> He seemed pretty out of it even before they started fighting.
> 
> Anyway I agree that SM Naruto can beat 50% Kyuubi who's of course weaker than 100% who is >/= BM Naruto who are both weaker than BSM Naruto current or 100%.
> 
> But 100% Kyuubi with PS Armor is likely stronger than BM Naruto without question.


Sure, I think Hashirama > Kyuusanoo > BSM Naruto > BM NAruto.





Lord Valgaav said:


> But wouldn't that just be a matter of chakra control?
> 
> Against Edo Madara I always count that was Kishi's way of keeping Hashi out of the fight so as to let the others shine. Which is why he and Madara spent most of the time just standing around talking. Against EMS Madara that was two on 1. If he tried to seal Kyuubi Madara would just destroy the Gates.


I guess you could call it a matter of chakra control though that would be more specific than 'concentration'.

Well, then it means PIS against edo madara right?  I can agree to that.  Against Kyuusanoo however, if he could have done the tori gates, it would have massively helped him as it would have pinned down kyuusanoo's face and susanoo's arms, thus eliminating bijuudamas or PS sword slashes.  It would have made the battle very onesided if he could have done that.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 10, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> What strength feats has Juubito displayed that would show how much power it requires to break out of moujinmon?


when has naruto showed physical strength greater than V2 juubi?



> Juubito did not opt to dodge the gates, nor do the gates hitting a mindless juubito means it gets the feats of a concious juubito.


it doesnt matter if you think he opted to dodge it or not. the manga showed hashirama tagged someone faster than naruto with absolute ease. narutos "speed" doesnt mean anything, just like it hasnt meant anything in any of his fights in the manga.



> It doesn't have to be greater than the juubi, juubito's physical strength isn't greater than the juubi's it's just more focused.  BSM Naruto was knocking away the juubi's chakra arms with his strength the same chakra arms that up and tore away the barrier that hashirama alone couldn't create.


50% yin kurama did the exact same thing. is 50% yin kurama>god gates now?

by your logic, since 50% yin kurama smacked away the chakra arms that took down the hokage barrier, 50% yin kuramas strength>juubidama.
thats like saying that itachis susano is stronger than sasukes just because he smacked it away.
both halves of kurama are equal and the yang half was smacked across the battlefield by V1 juubi.

in raw physical strength, juubito>V2 juubi>V1 juubi>50% yin kyuubi=BSM 50% yang kyuubi.


> Now Naruto is powered by 100% Kurama which makes him much stronger than what he is in canon.


this is just senseless noise. he still isnt comparable to any form of the juubi in physical strength.



> First off, the rasengan in the first panel is in the middle of the page split, thus the vertical diameter of the technique would be the correct one not the horizontal diameter and thus the diameter of the rasengan in the first scan would only be comparable to the length of BSM Naruto's forearm.


they are both the same size compared to the kyuubis hand in both panels.


> And in the second scan it's clear as day that the powered up rasengan has a diameter more than double the length of BSM Naruto's forearm which conclusively proves the rasengan in the second scan is much larger than the one in the first scan.


no it doesnt. thats merely you conjuring up false evidence in your mind because you want to believe that BSM boosts naruto to another level when the manga hasnt given him the feats to support your stance.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 10, 2013)

Lord valgaav

- his face with the blood all over it does not make that a humble attitude. 
- hashi and madara were inside the barrier, and they were blown up. Simple as that. 
You can see later that hashi returned to his base state after obito fodderized  him.


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 10, 2013)

Elia said:


> Lord valgaav
> 
> - his face with the blood all over it does not make that a humble attitude.



The only time Hashi is out of his humble nice guy character is when dealing with Madara or scolding Tobirama about the Uchiha. 

Even if we don't look at his humble attitude, are you really trying to suggest that Kyuubi is any kind of threat to him? Its more like Hashi worried about how others would do against Kyuubi, and thus saw it as too dangerous to let roam around.




Elia said:


> - hashi and madara were inside the barrier, and they were blown up. Simple as that.
> You can see later that hashi returned to his base state after obito fodderized  him.



They don't really care since they're Edo. Similar to how Madara didn't care about his protection when he dropped meteors. The only real danger to them is the Black Jinton which effects even Edo.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 10, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Still waiting for those scans showing RM naruto's god level taijustu.


 when did i say he had god lvl taijutsu?





> >2013
> >people still think naruto's shunshin is good enough to constantly use during a fight, and he will always open with his max speed


Why can't he if he wants to? He used it without trouble against Ei.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> when has naruto showed physical strength greater than V2 juubi?


Since that doesn't answer the question i've asked then i guess you dropped your initial point of contention.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> it doesnt matter if you think he opted to dodge it or not. the manga showed hashirama tagged someone faster than naruto with absolute ease. narutos "speed" doesnt mean anything, just like it hasnt meant anything in any of his fights in the manga.


It completely matters if juubito opted to dodge the gates or not, that's the whole point of any tagging feat: if the target is hit while trying to dodge.  So no, juubito shown just standing there not opting to dodge means nothing about Hashirama being able to tag him if he's trying to dodge and thus isn't any kind of evidence that hashirama can tag BSM Naruto.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> 50% yin kurama did the exact same thing. is 50% yin kurama>god gates now?


50% yin kurama didn't do the same thing, BM Minato who's powered by 50% yin kurama did the same thing, and I do not credit BSM > god gates because of that, I credit him that ability because BM Naruto could do that, BSM Naruto > BM Naruto and 100% BSM Naruto > BSM Naruto



Shinobi no Kami said:


> by your logic, since 50% yin kurama smacked away the chakra arms that took down the hokage barrier, 50% yin kuramas strength>juubidama.
> thats like saying that itachis susano is stronger than sasukes just because he smacked it away.
> both halves of kurama are equal and the yang half was smacked across the battlefield by V1 juubi.


Wait, are you saying that Itachi's ribcage susanoo isn't on the same level as Sasuke's ribcage susanoo?

Smacking away chakra arms =/= being as strong as those chakra arms, however it does require them to be not be magnitudes apart in power.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> in raw physical strength, juubito>V2 juubi>V1 juubi>50% yin kyuubi=BSM 50% yang kyuubi.


no, juubito using chakra arms = V2 juubi > V1 Juubi > BSM Naruto > BM Minato in raw physical strength



Shinobi no Kami said:


> this is just senseless noise. he still isnt comparable to any form of the juubi in physical strength.


What is that based on?  100% BSM Naruto doesn't have to even be as strong as juubito, juubito effortlessly destroyed those gates and he doesn't have to be as powerful as the juubi since a jinchuriki actually focuses his power effectively unlike a raw bijuu which is why juubito with the exact same power as the juubi laughs at those gates while the juubi stays pinned.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> they are both the same size compared to the kyuubis hand in both panels.
> 
> no it doesnt. thats merely you conjuring up false evidence in your mind because you want to believe that BSM boosts naruto to another level when the manga hasnt given him the feats to support your stance.


Since you haven't addressed my arguments which use the forearm of BSM Naruto as a reference which clear-as-day shows the second rasengan is at least double the diameter of the first rasengan then it's a tacit concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.

Debate honestly.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> they are both the same size compared to the kyuubis hand in both panels.
> 
> no it doesnt. thats merely you conjuring up false evidence in your mind because you want to believe that BSM boosts naruto to another level when the manga hasnt given him the feats to support your stance.


Are you serious? It's flat out stated that sage mode is a huge power up. It's shown MUL-    TI - PLE times that it is a huge power up. Why are you denying something that is so goddamn obvious?


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

I'm leaning a bit more towards Hashi on this one. Hashi was catching and redirecting Bijuudama's from 100 percent Kurama with his Mokuton, used the Mokuton: Hōbi to protect himself from 100 percent Kurama's Bijuudama, had Mokuton: Mokuryū catch Kurama, and was able to catch Kurama covered in Susanoo strikes with Mokuton: Hotei all in base along with having his Mokuton being able to surpress Kurama's chakra which would be a pain to Naruto. With Sage Mode Hashi's jutsu get a huge boost and he can also use Senpō: Myōjinmon to hold down Naruto for a short period of time as well as having Senpō: Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju which completely dwafs 100 percent Kurama which was able to take 9(IIRC) Bijuudama's with Susanoo swords and still punched the PS covering Kurama off as well as put him to sleep shortly after. Hashi is just a good counter to Naruto thanks to Mokuton.


----------



## Azula (Nov 11, 2013)

well lets see, naruto blows up low level mokuton techs like wood dragon or flower tree world etc with bijuu dama(s)
and blows up mokujin with chou oodama FRS
the only problem is the shinsuusenju

oh wait if he blows up mokujin hashi gets caught in the wind sphere and his chakra network gets shot down


----------



## Legendary Itachi (Nov 11, 2013)

Implying Hobi or Goju Rashomon won't neglect any version of FRS completely. 

I always think that 100% BM Mode is Kurama itself - like Gyuki to Bee - instead of chakra aura form, so can Hashi put the full bijuu to sleep by a touch?


----------



## Azula (Nov 11, 2013)

It cuts through them like hot knife through butter


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> Implying Hobi or Goju Rashomon won't neglect any version of FRS completely.


Hobi and Goju Rashoman were bisected by the bladed version of the Bijudama that Madara used, remember? Futon: Rasenshuriken in Biju Mode can completely sever the Ten-Tails' own tails, which took this barrage (which would absolutely slaughter Hashirama's defensive techs) without damage.


> I always think that 100% BM Mode is Kurama itself - like Gyuki to Bee - instead of chakra aura form, so can Hashi put the full bijuu to sleep by a touch?


Hashirama can suppress a Biju with a touch on a Mokujin, but the difficulty is Naruto's speed and reflexes. Naruto was reacting, while in Biju Sage Mode to _Obito_ (who blitzed Hashirama and Tobirama) and even cornered him and attacked. Even though Hashirama can suppress Kurama, he won't be _able_ to due to Naruto's speed and reflexes.



Bonly said:


> I'm leaning a bit more towards Hashi on this one. Hashi was catching and redirecting Bijuudama's from 100 percent Kurama with his Mokuton, used the Mokuton: Hōbi to protect himself from 100 percent Kurama's Bijuudama, had Mokuton: Mokuryū catch Kurama, and was able to catch Kurama covered in Susanoo strikes with Mokuton: Hotei all in base along with having his Mokuton being able to surpress Kurama's chakra which would be a pain to Naruto. With Sage Mode Hashi's jutsu get a huge boost and he can also use Senpō: Myōjinmon to hold down Naruto for a short period of time as well as having Senpō: Mokuton: Shin Sūsenju which completely dwafs 100 percent Kurama which was able to take 9(IIRC) Bijuudama's with Susanoo swords and still punched the PS covering Kurama off as well as put him to sleep shortly after. Hashi is just a good counter to Naruto thanks to Mokuton.


100% Kurama still is weaker than Biju Mode Naruto, much less Biju Sage Mode Naruto due to him being unable to focus that power. 100% Kurama Bijudama _is no more powerful than any of the other Biju's_ in both size, scope, and power. Its not that impressive. And Madara used Susano'o's own arms, *NOT* having Kurama wield the Susano'o Swords due to his own pride. Naruto can casually create Sage Mode Cho Bijudama's and Sage Mode Cho Odama Rasenshruiken's which counter almost all of Hashirama's jutsus.

And Senpo: Myojinmon hits Naruto _how?_ Naruto can literally sense it and move away. Naruto's speed is far, far greater than Hashirama's, and he can react and counter Ten-Tailed Obito's speed-who, by the way *blitzed* Hashirama in his first form. 

Flower World? Single Rasenshuriken is needed
Myojinmon? Naruto dodges.
Hobi and Mokujin? Hobi is dealt with Cho Odama Rasenshuriken and Mokujin with Bijudama (Mokujin's shown it cannot survive a standard powered one)
Shinsusenju? Dodge with greater agility and speed before launching a Senpo: Cho Bijudama right at Hashirama's face which is too big and powerful to catch.

Sorry, Naruto rightfully has this won. His speed, strength, power, jutsu boosts from both Sage Mode and Biju Mode, and his strength and durability are all higher than the damage Hashirama can deal out. Most of these pro-Hashirama arguments completely and utterly ignore Naruto's speed advantages and that his durability is greater than what Hashirama can deal out.


----------



## Panther (Nov 11, 2013)

Krippy said:


> Nope, I said they were shit 400 chapters ago and their still shit today. The only evidence I need is his lack of decent feats in base mode.


 It's not the ''lack'' of decent feats but the fact that you dodn't want to post any scans cuz your talking out of your ass when you say that Naruto's base clones are shit and can't do anything without Kurama's help.

Concession Accepted
without damage. without damage.



> I did refute it, Sasuke, Itachi, Minato, Tobirama, Kakashi, and anyone with their level of reactions and speed can keep up with him even if its only momentarily.


 nope. *you ignored my argument 2x that an unrestriced RM Naruto who hasn't his chakra divided among 13 other RM clones and isn't restriced to talking instead of fighting his enemy with killing intent would destroy base Sasuke and base Itachi*, and seeing as you didn't refute that argument of mine then you concede that an unrestricted RM Naruto would stomp base Sasuke and base Itachi.

your trying to create the illusion that base Sasuke would keep up with an unrestriced RM Naruto while using the example of the RM Naruto vs Itachi fight without counting in the restriction that RM Naruto had in that fight.



> Itachi had a 4.5 in taijustu and he kept up fine thanks to his base speed and sharingan. Kakashi and Sasuke are at a similar level and also have sharingan.


 Itachi kept up fine cuz *RM Naruto had his chakra divided with 13 other RM clones, didn't use his speed, didn't use any ninjutsu and just talked with his enemy instead of fighting with killing intent*. Under those conditions many characters would perform the same.



> Minato and Tobirama have FTG. They should keep up with his non-shunshin speed just fine. If the shunshin occurs, Susano'o/Kamui/Hiraishin counters it.


 those people are all irrevelant since we aren't talking about them, but about base sasuke against an unrestricted RM Naruto.



> Hashirama's clones should be able to stall Naruto's clones if they even get close enough.


 Hashirama's clones are fodder when Hashirama is focusing his power on his real body  which he's gonna do against BSM Naruto. come again when Hashirama's clones are displaying kage lvl feats and running around battlefields owning Kage lvl opponents with minimal help



> until further notice: BSM Naruto > SM Hashirama ~ BM Naruto > Base Hashirama


 fix'd for you


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 100% Kurama still is weaker than Biju Mode Naruto.



Got to here and stopped. How is 100 percent Kurama weaker then BM Naruto?


----------



## Lord Valgaav (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Got to here and stopped. How is 100 percent Kurama weaker then BM Naruto?



Even better, how is 100% Kyuubi with Susanoo armor and swords weaker than 50% BM Naruto?


----------



## Kai (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 100% Kurama Bijudama _is no more powerful than any of the other Biju's_ in both size, scope, and power. Its not that impressive.


Please SSM12.



50% Kurama who just had his chakra separated from his will still created a bijuudama far more powerful than what we have seen from any of the other bijuus.

Furthermore, BM Naruto's bijuudama was equivalent to *six* bijuus. That is definitely less powerful than a full powered Kurama.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Since that doesn't answer the question i've asked then i guess you dropped your initial point of contention.


what did your point have to do with mine? 

you are saying that naruto can straight up destroy the god gates just like juubito did. with this, you claim that narutos physical strength is greater than the juubi whom he canonically got smacked around by when it was in a weaker state than what hashirama restrained.



> It completely matters if juubito opted to dodge the gates or not, that's the whole point of any tagging feat: if the target is hit while trying to dodge.  So no, juubito shown just standing there not opting to dodge means nothing about Hashirama being able to tag him if he's trying to dodge and thus isn't any kind of evidence that hashirama can tag BSM Naruto.


you cant prove whether juubito opted to dodge or not. he reacted to pretty much everyones attack but because this point destroys your argument, you are trying to claim that he just stood there like a retard.
juubito had gates slammed on him before he could react. period.



> 50% yin kurama didn't do the same thing, BM Minato who's powered by 50% yin kurama did the same thing, and I do not credit BSM > god gates because of that, I credit him that ability because BM Naruto could do that, BSM Naruto > BM Naruto and 100% BSM Naruto > BSM Naruto


prove that the kurama avatar has physical strength greater than kurama.



> Wait, are you saying that Itachi's ribcage susanoo isn't on the same level as Sasuke's ribcage susanoo?


ems ribcage susano has better tanking feats than ms ribcage susano.


> Smacking away chakra arms =/= being as strong as those chakra arms, however it does require them to be not be magnitudes apart in power.


are you saying that naruto and minato can tear down the hokage barrier?



> no, juubito using chakra arms = V2 juubi > V1 Juubi > BSM Naruto > BM Minato in raw physical strength


if the V2 juubi couldnt break the gates and you have naruto weaker than it, why are you claiming that naruto can break it just like juubito.?



> What is that based on?  100% BSM Naruto doesn't have to even be as strong as juubito, juubito effortlessly destroyed those gates and he doesn't have to be as powerful as the juubi since a jinchuriki actually focuses his power effectively unlike a raw bijuu which is why juubito with the exact same power as the juubi laughs at those gates while the juubi stays pinned.


you just said that the V2 juubis raw physical power is greater than naruto then went on to say that naruto can break them. you are contradicting yourself. concession accepted. 
naruto has no strength feats that allow him to break the gates, period.



> Since you haven't addressed my arguments which use the forearm of BSM Naruto as a reference which clear-as-day shows the second rasengan is at least double the diameter of the first rasengan then it's a tacit concession on your part as an ignored argument is a conceded one.
> 
> Debate honestly.


i didnt ignore anything. the kyuubis hands are the exact same size compared to the rasengan in both panels.



Psp123789 said:


> Are you serious? It's flat out stated that sage mode is a huge power up. It's shown MUL-    TI - PLE times that it is a huge power up. Why are you denying something that is so goddamn obvious?


well you arent actually posting any feats.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> what did your point have to do with mine?
> 
> you are saying that naruto can straight up destroy the god gates just like juubito did. with this, you claim that narutos physical strength is greater than the juubi whom he canonically got smacked around by when it was in a weaker state than what hashirama restrained.


You don't need physical strength greater than the juubi's to destroy the god gates.  Juubito has the exact same physical strength as the juubi and he laughed at those gates, the only difference is that he can actually use that physical strength a lot more efficiently and effectively than the juubi.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> you cant prove whether juubito opted to dodge or not. he reacted to pretty much everyones attack but because this point destroys your argument, you are trying to claim that he just stood there like a retard.
> juubito had gates slammed on him before he could react. period.


mindless Juubito has never even tried to dodge another attack.  He either just stands there and takes the hit or he blocks the hit with black jinton which is something he didn't have out at the time of the gates.  

But really Juubito just standing there and not even trying to move is conclusive proof that he's not trying to dodge the gates, if you want to say otherwise the burden of proof is on you to do so.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> prove that the kurama avatar has physical strength greater than kurama.


It doesn't, but it doesn't have to.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> ems ribcage susano has better tanking feats than ms ribcage susano.


No it doesn't.  Madara's ribcage that blocked Ei's hit was much larger and thicker than sasuke's ribcage.  Both itachi and Sasuke's ribcages were the same size.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> are you saying that naruto and minato can tear down the hokage barrier?


nope, but again, they don't need to.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> if the V2 juubi couldnt break the gates and you have naruto weaker than it, why are you claiming that naruto can break it just like juubito.?


Because Juubito isn't more physically powerful than the juubi, the hachibi made it clear that he only seems stronger because he can actually use his power effectively which allows him to effortlessly destroy those gates.  So you don't need physical power at the level of the V2 juubi if you are a jinchuriki and thus if BM Naruto is physically strong enough to smack away the juubi's arms, BSM Naruto is even more powerful and 100 BSM Naruto is even more powerful, then that power combined with the fact that he's a perfect jinchuriki allows him to defeat the gates even if he gets tagged (which won't ever happen in the first place).




Shinobi no Kami said:


> i didnt ignore anything. the kyuubis hands are the exact same size compared to the rasengan in both panels.


You didn't address the forearm comparison which shows the diameter of the rasengan is at least double the original.  The *kyuubi's hands* aren't the *exact same size compared to the rasengan* in both panels and you have to factor in the page split which means the horizontal diameter of the rasengan isn't the actual diameter, it's the vertical diameter.  You can compare any part of kurama's body to the vertical diameter of both rasengans and the second rasengan is easily much larger than the first one.  

If you want to argue more about this, how about you do it in


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Got to here and stopped. How is 100 percent Kurama weaker then BM Naruto?


Because 100% Kurama cannot control his power well enough. BM Naruto, like all Jinchuriki focuses that power instead of throwing it around randomly. Its the same thing that happened with Obito, the Ten-Tails was unable to focus its power against the Hokage barrier but when Obito became the Jinchuriki all that power is focused. BM Naruto is no different.

BM Naruto regularly uses Super Bijudama, 100% Kurama throws around Bijudamas no stronger than the other Biju. BM Naruto can use all of his ninjutsus, 100% Kurama cannot. BM Naruto can use insane speed and reflexes, 100% Kurama can't.

How are we supposed to view that with all the advantages BM Naruto has over 100% Kurama? Just because its '100%'? Since the manga never said Kurama got any weaker when Minato split him into Yin and Yang.



Kai said:


> Please SSM12.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


And Kurama only did that _after he had already lost the fight_. Jinchuriki, as it has repeatedly been said over the course of the manga, focus all that power the Biju uses and makes it far more effective. 100% Kurama can't focus that power, so in a sense is weaker than BM Naruto.

And you just showed WHY BM Naruto's Bijudama is stronger than 100% Kurama's: BM Naruto can focus it to equal 5 Biju at the same time, 100% Kurama creates Bijudama as strong as any of the Biju.

The whole 100% Kurama bullshit is nothing more than a bias against BM/BSM Naruto so his haters can continue to claim that he stands no chance against SM Hashirama. Its bias, it fits no logic in the story, and finally its just, plain, wrong.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 11, 2013)

Alright. I'm gonna dive the fuck in.

When all is said and done its going to end up being Kurama vs Budha.

Budha is garbage to Naruto's arsenal.

- Naruto sends 100 Clones with Senpo: Cho Odama Rasengans at it first. (Which were capable of grinding through Juubi's Tails and cracking Rikudo's Black Shield.)
- Spawns 9 *BSM* COFRSz in his Tails with clones. (Had to highlight BSM because motherfuckers gonna only wanna imagine the KCM version.)
- Main Naruto gets the *BSM* Super BijuuDama  ready while the 100 Clones clean house.
- He sends out the 9 COFRSz first to prevent any stopping of the Super BijuuDama's traveling.
- He then sends the Super BijuuDama right behind the COFRSz.
- Fight over.

Now was this complicated?


----------



## Kai (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And Kurama only did that _after he had already lost the fight_. Jinchuriki, as it has repeatedly been said over the course of the manga, focus all that power the Biju uses and makes it far more effective. 100% Kurama can't focus that power, so in a sense is weaker than BM Naruto.


That can be said about 50% Kurama which we have seen for the majority of the series and is a more appropriate object of comparison to BM Naruto.

BM Naruto with only Yang Kurama is not likely to be more powerful than the full Kurama with both halves in one. You can revisit that comparison once Naruto has both Yin and Yang chakras in BM under his control against a full 100% Kurama.



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> And you just showed WHY BM Naruto's Bijudama is stronger than 100% Kurama's: BM Naruto can focus it to equal 5 Biju at the same time, 100% Kurama creates Bijudama as strong as any of the Biju.


This is just nonsense.

Kurama and therefore his bijuudama is tiers more powerful than any of the lesser bijuus, however large he decides to make them.



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> The whole 100% Kurama bullshit is nothing more than a bias against BM/BSM Naruto so his haters can continue to claim that he stands no chance against SM Hashirama. Its bias, it fits no logic in the story, and finally its just, plain, wrong.


It is not the bullshit people used to speculate on.

We already saw Minato's Kurama chakra feeding towards Naruto so there is such a thing as only possessing half of Kurama's full might.

In fact, before the hokages were revived Naruto supporters tried to ease the discrepancy stating nonsense like "50% of Kurama's chakra will eventually regenerate to full capacity" so there's not much difference between 50% and 100%.

We see when Minato arrives *there is a clear distinction* with having only half of Kurama's power.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Because 100% Kurama cannot control his power well enough. BM Naruto, like all Jinchuriki focuses that power instead of throwing it around randomly. Its the same thing that happened with Obito, the Ten-Tails was unable to focus its power against the Hokage barrier but when Obito became the Jinchuriki all that power is focused. BM Naruto is no different.



Do you have proof that 100 percent Kurama can't control his power?



> BM Naruto regularly uses Super Bijudama, 100% Kurama throws around Bijudamas no stronger than the other Biju.



False. What you mean to say is that an 100 percent Kurama being controlled by an Uchiha throws around Bijuudama's no stronger then other Bijuu. 



> BM Naruto can use all of his ninjutsus, 100% Kurama cannot. BM Naruto can use insane speed and reflexes, 100% Kurama can't.



The only Ninjutsu Naruto uses in BM is Bijudama's and made a few clones once, nothing much over Kurama. Naruto hasn't shown to move at "insane speeds" or show "insane reflexes" in BM either, in V2, yup but no BM.



> How are we supposed to view that with all the advantages BM Naruto has over 100% Kurama? Just because its '100%'? Since the manga never said Kurama got any weaker when Minato split him into Yin and Yang.



There's this cool thing called common sense which most people have which tells one that 100 Percent Kurama can do what Naruto can do and with more power.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> well you arent actually posting any feats.


Yes I did. 3 times in fact. I shouldn't need to when it's shown multiple times that SM is a giant power up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Kai said:


> That can be said about 50% Kurama which we have seen for the majority of the series and is a more appropriate object of comparison to BM Naruto.


It applies to Kurama period Kai. 100% or just Yang Kurama. A Jinchuriki ALWAYS makes a Biju more powerful due to the fact it can focus the power.


> BM Naruto with only Yang Kurama is not likely to be more powerful than the full Kurama with both halves in one. You can revisit that comparison once Naruto has both Yin and Yang chakras in BM under his control against a full 100% Kurama.


BM Naruto isn't just Yang Kurama, its Naruto's Chakra + Kurama's Chakra, formed into a stronger being overall. BM Naruto could defeat five Biju at once and overpower them with a single Bijudama, while 100% Kurama was throwing out power on the same level as the other Biju.



> This is just nonsense.
> 
> Kurama and therefore his bijuudama is tiers more powerful than any of the lesser bijuus, however large he decides to make them.


Kurama's Bijudama's during the battle with Hashirama were on the same level as the other Biju. Hell, the Biju 2-7 here is on the same level here.



> It is not the bullshit people used to speculate on.


It is bullshit and it is bias. 


> We already saw Minato's Kurama chakra feeding towards Naruto so there is such a thing as only possessing half of Kurama's full might.


Tell me: when was it ever said Kurama got any weaker? Show the panel.


> In fact, before the hokages were revived Naruto supporters tried to ease the discrepancy stating nonsense like "50% of Kurama's chakra will eventually regenerate to full capacity" so there's not much difference between 50% and 100%.
> 
> We see when Minato arrives *there is a clear distinction* with having only half of Kurama's power.


Its not as clear cut as that, Kai. And not only that, a unsealed, 100% Kurama was still weaker than BM Naruto due to throwing around power comparable to the other Biju, not on another level at all. BM Naruto was equaling five Biju at the same exact time. That's a feat '100% Kurama' doesn't have.


Bonly said:


> Do you have proof that 100 percent Kurama can't control his power?


Given he was basically throwing around power comparable to the other Biju, yeah. Not only that the manga ITSELF says 'Biju without Jinchuriki are weaker than Biju + Jinchuriki'. Its been established and reinforced over and over again. Not to mention the fact BM Naruto was equaling five Biju at once, while 100% Kurama didn't do anything near that feat.




> False. What you mean to say is that an 100 percent Kurama being controlled by an Uchiha throws around Bijuudama's no stronger then other Bijuu.


Its the same thing. Kurama is stronger overall in Naruto than he is unsealed. 




> The only Ninjutsu Naruto uses in BM is Bijudama's and made a few clones once, nothing much over Kurama. Naruto hasn't shown to move at "insane speeds" or show "insane reflexes" in BM either, in V2, yup but no BM.




Naruto's BM Rasenshuriken _cut the Ten-Tails tails in half_. BM Naruto's clones give him more options than what Kurama has. And Naruto hasn't shown to use insane speeds or insane reflexes? BM Naruto deflected five Bijudama at once. BM Naruto is both the Avatar and the cape and mantle he gets. He doesn't have 'version 2'.





> There's this cool thing called common sense which most people have which tells one that 100 Percent Kurama can do what Naruto can do and with more power.


Then why did the manga show 100% Kurama doing what any other Biju can do in destructive capacity then? More to the point why didn't the manga even say Kurama got weaker when sealed in Naruto? 

Its bias, plain and simple.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

@ Kai and Bonly

You guys realize that if you want to give 100% Kurama feats or abilities that he hasn't shown in a fight, then you can't use A>B>C logic where you say Base Hashirama > 100% Kurama and then go on to say that 100% Kurama > BM Naruto if you allow 100% Kurama to do things like super bijuudama or rapidfire bijuudama against Naruto.  Plus if you guys are using the A>B>C logic of what happened in the manga then we've seen that a bijuu by itself is far weaker than the jinchuriki when SM Naruto dominated 50% Kurama.  Thus at most you could say that 100% Kurama has more raw power than BM Naruto, not that he'd win in a fight, or that he can use all that raw power in a fight.

@ Bonly specifically, if you say that "the only ninjutsu BM Naruto has ever done in BM is clones" then like you restrict BM Naruto to the jutsu he's done on panel, you'd have to restrict 100% Kurama to the jutsu he's done on panel, and thus he doesn't make bijuudamas as powerful as BM Naruto, nor does he fire them as quickly.  If you want to use reason/logic/evidence outside of merely what they've shown on panel to make logical arguments of what they are capable of, then you can't restrict BM Naruto to just using the ninjutsu he's done on panel.

So basically it's okay if you want to say 100% Kurama has more power than BM Naruto, however if you want to argue who'd win in a fight, you'd have to match them up against each other, you can't just say "100% Kurama has more power/chakra therefore he's > BM Naruto".  And if you match them up in a fight, you'd either have to allow both to use hypothetical powers, or restrict both to only what they've done on panel.  Finally, if you want to draw comparisons to how shinobi would stack up against BM Naruto by using 100% Kurama as a medium, then you'd have to evaluate that shinobi vs 100% Kurama with the same logic as 100% Kurama vs Naruto.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

@ Bonly

Naruto's BM/BSM Speed:
* Bijuu Mode Cloak*
* Bijuu Mode Cloak*
* Bijuu Mode Cloak*
* Bijuu Mode Cloak*
Link removed


----------



## Kai (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It applies to Kurama period Kai. 100% or just Yang Kurama. A Jinchuriki ALWAYS makes a Biju more powerful due to the fact it can focus the power.


Nowhere does it say that a jinchuuriki of half the bijuu's chakra is more powerful than the full bijuu.

Is Obito as jinchuuriki of 1st stage Juubi going to be more powerful than Juubi's final form?



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> BM Naruto isn't just Yang Kurama, its Naruto's Chakra + Kurama's Chakra, formed into a stronger being overall. BM Naruto could defeat five Biju at once and overpower them with a single Bijudama, while 100% Kurama was throwing out power on the same level as the other Biju.


Trying to convince me that 100% Kurama throws out power on the same level as other bijuus is a direct denial of canon. It is just outright false and just as bad as Shinobi no Kami's claim that SM doesn't boost BM power.



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Kurama's Bijudama's during the battle with Hashirama were on the same level as the other Biju. Hell, the Biju 2-7 here is on the same level here.


Even Hashirama stated Kurama's power was too great and couldn't be left to roam freely. This is not a matter of equivalence among the bijuus.

Why do you think Hashi made negotiations with the other countries regarding bijuu trading but had Kurama already sealed within his wife?



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Tell me: when was it ever said Kurama got any weaker? Show the panel.


Are you saying Kurama's chakra can be divided into even more proportions and all fractions will maintain the same power as 100%?



			
				SuperSaiyaMan12 said:
			
		

> Its not as clear cut as that, Kai. And not only that, a unsealed, 100% Kurama was still weaker than BM Naruto due to throwing around power comparable to the other Biju, not on another level at all. BM Naruto was equaling five Biju at the same exact time. That's a feat '100% Kurama' doesn't have.


How much stronger Kurama is compared to the other bijuus was already established when Kisame stated all the tailed beasts need to be sealed first just to balance its power.

@ueharakk

I'm responding to someone who believes Yang Kurama is no weaker than the full Kurama, even though we see what the distinction for what it is once Minato arrives on the battlefield with Yin Kurama, and later leaking Yin Kurama's chakras directly to Naruto.

If and when Naruto receives both halves of Kurama, the idea will surely reach new levels of silly.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Given he was basically throwing around power comparable to the other Biju, yeah. Not only that the manga ITSELF says 'Biju without Jinchuriki are weaker than Biju + Jinchuriki'. Its been established and reinforced over and over again. Not to mention the fact BM Naruto was equaling five Biju at once, while 100% Kurama didn't do anything near that feat.



It was said by Deidara that "It lacked a mind to actually control the power afterall". He was basically saying that they are more or less stupid and can't control their power(unless you think he meant they don't actually don't have any minds at all) and as we have seen the Bijuu aren't stupid so that doesn't hold any weight for your "the manga ITSELF says 'Biju without Jinchuriki are weaker than Biju + Jinchuriki'". So come back with a creditable source for where it was stated that Bijuu can't control their power.




> Its the same thing. Kurama is stronger overall in Naruto than he is unsealed.



No it isn't. Kurama being controlled can only do what the controller wants/tells him to do as opposed to being free and doing whatever he wants with his power. 





> Naruto's BM Rasenshuriken _cut the Ten-Tails tails in half_. BM Naruto's clones give him more options than what Kurama has. And Naruto hasn't shown to use insane speeds or insane reflexes? BM Naruto deflected five Bijudama at once. BM Naruto is both the Avatar and the cape and mantle he gets. He doesn't have 'version 2'.



Naruto did RS when he was in V2, not Bijuu Mode. Naruto deflected five Bijuudama's in V2, not Bijuu Mode. V2 was said that it contained the power of Hachibi in human form and that pretty much applies to all Jins. Bijuu Mode is when he puts on the Kurama avatar like other Jin's going Bijuu Mode actually turn into their Bijuus.



> Then why did the manga show 100% Kurama doing what any other Biju can do in destructive capacity then?



Because he was being controlled and ordered what to do. 



> More to the point why didn't the manga even say Kurama got weaker when sealed in Naruto?
> 
> Its bias, plain and simple.



Common sense and Kishi not needing to hold your hand and spell out every single thing. Do I even need to bring up how many things isn't stated in the manga but yet you can come to a conclusion on things? 

No it's common sense which most people have but a Naruto fanboy like you won't see it as such. I might as well be talking to an Itachi fanboy on how Kakashi can beat Itachi


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It was said by Deidara that "It lacked a mind to actually control the power afterall". He was basically saying that they are more or less stupid and can't control their power(unless you think he meant they don't actually don't have any minds at all) and as we have seen the Bijuu aren't stupid so that doesn't hold any weight for your "the manga ITSELF says 'Biju without Jinchuriki are weaker than Biju + Jinchuriki'". So come back with a creditable source for where it was stated that Bijuu can't control their power.


Again, look at the Obito example: the Jyubi wasn't able to focus its power to break the Hokage barrier or shatter the torii binding it. When its sealed in Obito though, that power is focused and Obito was able to do feats that the Jyubi itself was unable to do. And Deidara's statement is still true, after all Isobu began chasing Deidara and Obito like a wild beast.





> No it isn't. Kurama being controlled can only do what the controller wants/tells him to do as opposed to being free and doing whatever he wants with his power.


However, those are the only feats 100% Kurama actually HAS. He was using his power far less effectively than BM Naruto and on an lower level.






> Naruto did RS when he was in V2, not Bijuu Mode. Naruto deflected five Bijuudama's in V2, not Bijuu Mode. V2 was said that it contained the power of Hachibi in human form and that pretty much applies to all Jins. Bijuu Mode is when he puts on the Kurama avatar like other Jin's going Bijuu Mode actually turn into their Bijuus.


No, Naruto's Biju Mode is both the caped form and the full Kurama Avatar. Its the same state just with different forms. Hell the manga itself called the caped form Biju Mode. Hell you even show why Naruto's Biju Mode form is different from the other Biju there: Version 2 is the trait of red chakra forming a beast like form around the Jinchuriki's body. Now does that describe the form you're seeing there? And we've SEEN Naruto's Version 2 forms, remember against Orochimaru? Or against Pain? That is Version 2, Naruto with the golden cape is Biju Mode.




> Because he was being controlled and ordered what to do.


And those are the only feats he has.




> Common sense and Kishi not needing to hold your hand and spell out every single thing. Do I even need to bring up how many things isn't stated in the manga but yet you can come to a conclusion on things?
> 
> No it's common sense which most people have but a Naruto fanboy like you won't see it as such. I might as well be talking to an Itachi fanboy on how Kakashi can beat Itachi


Except it isn't common sense when the manga goes on and on and on about Kurama's power being very strong. Gyuki, nor Hashirama, nor Madara ever commented on Kurama being weaker since he wasn't.


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Nov 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> You don't need physical strength greater than the juubi's to destroy the god gates.  Juubito has the exact same physical strength as the juubi and he laughed at those gates, the only difference is that he can actually use that physical strength a lot more efficiently and effectively than the juubi.


ok.



> mindless Juubito has never even tried to dodge another attack.  He either just stands there and takes the hit or he blocks the hit with black jinton which is something he didn't have out at the time of the gates.


the only way your point would make sense is if he never tried to react to anyones attacks.


> But really Juubito just standing there and not even trying to move is conclusive proof that he's not trying to dodge the gates, if you want to say otherwise the burden of proof is on you to do so.


so you are saying that juubito wasnt trying to move just because hashirama tagged him? thats sounds like a whole lot of wank and downplay.



> It doesn't, but it doesn't have to.


in order to validate your point, yes it does.



> No it doesn't.  Madara's ribcage that blocked Ei's hit was much larger and thicker than sasuke's ribcage.  Both itachi and Sasuke's ribcages were the same size.


sasukes susano blocked juubitos black jinton. now post a feat of itachis ribcage that would put it on the same level.



> nope, but again, they don't need to.


yes they need to show that level of strength to do what you claim.



> Because Juubito isn't more physically powerful than the juubi, the hachibi made it clear that he only seems stronger because he can actually use his power effectively which allows him to effortlessly destroy those gates.  So you don't need physical power at the level of the V2 juubi if you are a jinchuriki and thus if BM Naruto is physically strong enough to smack away the juubi's arms, BSM Naruto is even more powerful and 100 BSM Naruto is even more powerful, then that power combined with the fact that he's a perfect jinchuriki allows him to defeat the gates even if he gets tagged (which won't ever happen in the first place).


well now you are just blatantly saying that juubi jinchuriki=50% kyuubi jinchuriki.




> You didn't address the forearm comparison which shows the diameter of the rasengan is at least double the original.  The *kyuubi's hands* aren't the *exact same size compared to the rasengan* in both panels and you have to factor in the page split which means the horizontal diameter of the rasengan isn't the actual diameter, it's the vertical diameter.  You can compare any part of kurama's body to the vertical diameter of both rasengans and the second rasengan is easily much larger than the first one.
> 
> If you want to argue more about this, how about you do it in


you didnt address the hand comparison.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

Shinobi no Kami said:


> the only way your point would make sense is if he never tried to react to anyones attacks.
> 
> so you are saying that juubito wasnt trying to move just because hashirama tagged him? thats sounds like a whole lot of wank and downplay.


No, I'm saying that juubito wasn't trying to move because.... we are shown that he wasn't trying to move.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> in order to validate your point, yes it does.


no it doesn't as like Juubito doesn't have to have physical strength greater than the juubi to fodderize the gates, so does BM Naruto not have to have physical strength greater than Kurama to use his power more efficiently and perform better than kurama would have.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> sasukes susano blocked juubitos black jinton. now post a feat of itachis ribcage that would put it on the same level.


Itachi's susanoo never was put up against a technique of the same level, however that doesn't mean anything in regards to its ability to do so or not as that would be the absence of evidence is evidence of absence logical fallacy.  If you want to use the jinton feat, the burden of proof is on you to show that itachi's gets damaged more by a weaker force or would have been damaged more.



Shinobi no Kami said:


> well now you are just blatantly saying that juubi jinchuriki=50% kyuubi jinchuriki.


Where in the world am I saying that?  Juubito fodderized those gates, he let himself get hit, and he crumbled them without a second thought, all the while he wasn't even focused on destroying them as his mind was busy fighting off the juubi's influence.

BSM Naruto doesn't need anywhere near the power of Juubito to defeat the gates.




Shinobi no Kami said:


> you didnt address the hand comparison.


Um, I just did when I stated:





ueharakk said:


> The *kyuubi's hands* aren't the *exact same size compared to the rasengan* in both panels and you have to factor in the page split which means the horizontal diameter of the rasengan isn't the actual diameter, it's the vertical diameter.



and since you haven't addressed my comparison of the forearm or rather any other part of BM Naruto to the rasengan, then you have tacitly conceded the point since an ignored argument is a conceded one. 

Just debate honestly, if you really think you are right, how about you argue your case inand show everyone exactly the level of integrity you bring into debates.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, look at the Obito example: the Jyubi wasn't able to focus its power to break the Hokage barrier or shatter the torii binding it. When its sealed in Obito though, that power is focused and Obito was able to do feats that the Jyubi itself was unable to do.



That's pretty neat. Perfect Jins are said that they can break out of Genjutsu due to the parthner method and yet Obito was able to control Yagura. See what I just did? I took something that was stated in the manga and showed an example which shows otherwise. Does this means what B said was false? No, it just shows that, that isn't always the case. Same thing with you, you show one example but that doesn't outright support that Bijuu can't control their powers, in fact we haven't really seen just Bijuu alone able to use his powers bar Isobu who got little showing as such. So how can you claim that it applies to all Bijuu based on one case when you haven't even seen how Bijuu to correctly make that claim? 



> And Deidara's statement is still true, after all Isobu began chasing Deidara and Obito like a wild beast.



He was in the water and started attacking Obito who was running away. Of course he would look like a wild beast but that doesn't mean he was mindless, in fact with all that Kishi has shown us that the only other thing Isobu could have done was shoot off a Bijuudama. What was he support to do? Stand there? 



> However, those are the only feats 100% Kurama actually HAS. He was using his power far less effectively than BM Naruto and on an lower level.






> And those are the only feats he has.



Glad you agree Kurama has yet to be free to use the power he wants freely instead of being control which can effect him.




> Except it isn't common sense when the manga goes on and on and on about Kurama's power being very strong.



Except common sense should kick in and tell you that just because someone comments on someones power being strong, that doesn't mean that it isn't weaker then what the same person could put out.



> Gyuki, nor Hashirama, nor Madara ever commented on Kurama being weaker since he wasn't.



That's pretty neat, doesn't change the fact that he's weaker.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> That's pretty neat. Perfect Jins are said that they can break out of Genjutsu due to the parthner method and yet Obito was able to control Yagura. See what I just did? I took something that was stated in the manga and showed an example which shows otherwise. Does this means what B said was false? No, it just shows that, that isn't always the case. Same thing with you, you show one example but that doesn't outright support that Bijuu can't control their powers, in fact we haven't really seen just Bijuu alone able to use his powers bar Isobu who got little showing as such. So how can you claim that it applies to all Bijuu based on one case when you haven't even seen how Bijuu to correctly make that claim?


We don't know HOW Yagura was controlled by Obito, Bonly. What sort of genjutsu it was and such. Not only that, several times over we saw Biju using their powers less effectively than the Jinchuriki themselves. Even Gyuki himself describes himself as a wild beast before he met Bee. And hell, Gyuki himself showed he was using his power far less effectively considering he got fricken chained up by fodder Kumo ninja and only threw around his power randomly. Look at what happens when Bee uses said power, he would have broken the hold fodderized everyone there and left before the Sandaime Raikage or anyone could pursue due to the damage he could use.




> He was in the water and started attacking Obito who was running away. Of course he would look like a wild beast but that doesn't mean he was mindless, in fact with all that Kishi has shown us that the only other thing Isobu could have done was shoot off a Bijuudama. What was he support to do? Stand there?


How about curl up in a ball and spin after him? Or use coral to try to box Obito in? Isobu only gave chase like a wild beast, not an intelligent being despite having other abilities he could use.

Manga makes it blatantly clear Biju's can't control their own power effectively and throw it around randomly. Its something that was there ever since the Ten-Tails.





> Glad you agree Kurama has yet to be free to use the power he wants freely instead of being control which can effect him.


Except when Kurama _was_ free (from Obito's control) he still created a Bijudama no more powerful than the other Biju. 




> Except common sense should kick in and tell you that just because someone comments on someones power being strong, that doesn't mean that it isn't weaker then what the same person could put out.


However the manga has emphasized how powerful Kurama is. No where, not once, not even when Minato did the split, was Kurama said to be any weaker than he normally was. What sense would there be to give Naruto a Kurama who wasn't as powerful if his main purpose was defeating Obito?




> That's pretty neat, doesn't change the fact that he's weaker.


No, it kind of means Kurama is as strong as ever. The manga goes over, and over, and over again on how powerful Kurama is after the split. No one, not even Kurama himself says he got weaker due to the Yin/Yang split.


----------



## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> We don't know HOW Yagura was controlled by Obito, Bonly.



Stopped right here. If you're not smart enough to use common sense on how Obito with Sharingan's only managed to controlled Yagura then there is no need to go any further. 




> How about curl up in a ball and spin after him? Or use coral to try to box Obito in? Isobu only gave chase like a wild beast, not an intelligent being despite having other abilities he could use.



How would him curling up in a ball and spinning after Obito make him look less like a beast? It'll be the same as in the manga but he'll be a ball. Why would he use coral right off the bat and why would he try and trap Obito instead of attacking? How many people actually trap to people first and then attack instead of attacking first? I can guarantee you that I can find more examples of people attacking first instead of trying to trap someone. Does that mean their wild beast as well? 



> Manga makes it blatantly clear Biju's can't control their own power effectively and throw it around randomly. Its something that was there ever since the Ten-Tails.



Manga made it bluntly clear that Bijuu are mindless, stupid beat that are only good for turning them into weapons via Jins. And yet we see they aren't stupid mindless beast with actually feelings.




> Except when Kurama _was_ free (from Obito's control) he still created a Bijudama no more powerful than the other Biju.



Cool you used one instance where a huge ass toad fall ontop of him. Wait was this suppose to back up your case that Kurama can't control his powers and make them more powerful like he did in Naruto mind at the end of that tug of war battle?



> Snip



We're pretty much done with this point, we're just going in circles. I use common sense and you just fanboy out over feats only and flawed logic.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Stopped right here. If you're not smart enough to use common sense on how Obito with Sharingan's only managed to controlled Yagura then there is no need to go any further.


I know it was a Sharingan genjutsu, but we don't know which, how often it had to be reapplied, etc. We need more specifics?





> How would him curling up in a ball and spinning after Obito make him look less like a beast? It'll be the same as in the manga but he'll be a ball. Why would he use coral right off the bat and why would he try and trap Obito instead of attacking? How many people actually trap to people first and then attack instead of attacking first? I can guarantee you that I can find more examples of people attacking first instead of trying to trap someone. Does that mean their wild beast as well?


Getting into a ball would enable Isobu to avoid the C3 bomb that Deidara sent against him, overtake Obito, and get distance to corner him. Its like Sonic's ball attack. And the coral also would provide an offensive ranged attack other than the Bijudama.




> Manga made it bluntly clear that Bijuu are mindless, stupid beat that are only good for turning them into weapons via Jins. And yet we see they aren't stupid mindless beast with actually feelings.


We know they aren't mindless and stupid, but they act more like animals than intelligent beings when using their own power, throwing it around randomly. There's plenty of evidence of that. Being in a Jinchuriki focuses their power and in a way makes them stronger.





> Cool you used one instance where a huge ass toad fall ontop of him. Wait was this suppose to back up your case that Kurama can't control his powers and make them more powerful like he did in Naruto mind at the end of that tug of war battle?


Kurama throws around a Bijudama, while free on his own mind, that is no more powerful than any of the other Biju. Gamabunta didn't prevent him from completing the Bijudama either.




> We're pretty much done with this point, we're just going in circles. I use common sense and you just fanboy out over feats only and flawed logic.


No, you're not using logic and common sense. You're using _assumptions_. If the manga said Kurama got any weaker, it would have said so. We'd have even got Kurama himself saying 'can't hold this for long because I'm not at full power' and such. The manga goes onto say Kurama is as strong as ever and no point calls him weaker. That's canon. Your assumption is that he got weaker with no proof.


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## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I know it was a Sharingan genjutsu, but we don't know which, how often it had to be reapplied, etc. We need more specifics?




> First said "We don't know HOW Yagura was controlled by Obito, Bonly."
> Now saying "I know it was a Sharingan genjutsu"

Well that was a quick change.



> Getting into a ball would enable Isobu to avoid the C3 bomb that Deidara sent against him, overtake Obito, and get distance to corner him. Its like Sonic's ball attack. And the coral also would provide an offensive ranged attack other than the Bijudama.



Being a ball wouldn't allowed him to avoid the C3 bomb. It would allow him to defend from it better, the only way he could've avoided it is if he was faster as a ball to the point where Deidara's fish couldn't have caught up to him.  



> We know they aren't mindless and stupid, but they act more like animals than intelligent beings when using their own power, throwing it around randomly. There's plenty of evidence of that. Being in a Jinchuriki focuses their power and in a way makes them stronger.



So are you saying that Part one wave arc Naruto could control and focus Kurama power better then Kurama can? Because you do realize that Naruto at that point was a Jin right? So you do realize that the ground your point stands on of "Being in a Jinchuriki focuses their power and in a way makes them stronger" would indeed be false as that isn't the case right? So you do realize the best you could could up with would be a perfect Jin would fit that?



> Kurama throws around a Bijudama, while free on his own mind, that is no more powerful than any of the other Biju. Gamabunta didn't prevent him from completing the Bijudama either.



Well lets stop and actually use our brains for a second. If a normal Bijuudama can nuke a shitload of people that are attacking him and he had a huge ass frog just fall ontop of him out of nowhere, exactly why would he bother to make a stronger Bijuudama then a normal one? Oh wait but I forgot, by your logic just because of this one instance this but means it applies all of the time.



> No, you're not using logic and common sense.



Well you do lack such so you wouldn't think so but for any non Naruto fanboys 9/10 times they'll know that Kurama with only have his strength isn't stronger then Kurama with all of his strength just because of feats(which the latter lacks on his own compared to the former).


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> > First said "We don't know HOW Yagura was controlled by Obito, Bonly."
> > Now saying "I know it was a Sharingan genjutsu"
> 
> Well that was a quick change.


No change at all. I knew Yagura was controlled by a Sharingan Genjutsu, but we need more specifics.




> Being a ball wouldn't allowed him to avoid the C3 bomb. It would allow him to defend from it better, the only way he could've avoided it is if he was faster as a ball to the point where Deidara's fish couldn't have caught up to him.


The ball would have allowed Isobu to tank that bomb since his vulnerable belly wouldn't have been hit. Not only that, he would have moved far faster than just swimming given he's spinning like a wheel. 




> So are you saying that Part one wave arc Naruto could control and focus Kurama power better then Kurama can? Because you do realize that Naruto at that point was a Jin right? So you do realize that the ground your point stands on of "Being in a Jinchuriki focuses their power and in a way makes them stronger" would indeed be false as that isn't the case right? So you do realize the best you could could up with would be a perfect Jin would fit that?


Why bring up Part I Naruto who let _Kurama_ take control whenever he lost it? And I thought Perfect Jinchuriki would have been a given, Bonly. 




> Well lets stop and actually use our brains for a second. If a normal Bijuudama can nuke a shitload of people that are attacking him and he had a huge ass frog just fall ontop of him out of nowhere, exactly why would he bother to make a stronger Bijuudama then a normal one? Oh wait but I forgot, by your logic just because of this one instance this but means it applies all of the time.


What about when Kurama was in control of Naruto's body against Orochimaru and Deva Path? He was throwing around his power randomly those instances without focusing them.




> Well you do lack such so you wouldn't think so but for any non Naruto fanboys 9/10 times they'll know that Kurama with only have his strength isn't stronger then Kurama with all of his strength just because of feats(which the latter lacks on his own compared to the former).


Cut with the insults or I'll report you my friend. The manga never at all says Kurama got weaker so we can't assume it.


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## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No change at all. I knew Yagura was controlled by a Sharingan Genjutsu, but we need more specifics.



Not going by your first comment you didn't but glad we agree. 




> The ball would have allowed Isobu to tank that bomb since his vulnerable belly wouldn't have been hit.



The bomb was in his face.



> Not only that, he would have moved far faster than just swimming given he's spinning like a wheel.




Do you have an actually proof of this? To me it seems like you're just making assumptions which apparently by you doesn't include any form of logic or common sense for one to make an assumption. 




> Why bring up Part I Naruto who let _Kurama_ take control whenever he lost it?



You said Jins were more power then Bijuu did you not?



> And I thought Perfect Jinchuriki would have been a given, Bonly.



Can't be sure with you unless I see actually see you say it in such a fashion, don't wanna make an assumptions which lack logic and common sense.



> What about when Kurama was in control of Naruto's body against Orochimaru and Deva Path? He was throwing around his power randomly those instances without focusing them.



How was he randomly throwing his power around? Because he went on the offensive and was in their face and kept attacking? Because Kishi didn't have Kurama act like how you think he should've acted?



> Cut with the insults or I'll report you my friend. The manga never at all says Kurama got weaker so we can't assume it.



There are no insults unless your getting butthurt over being called a fanboy which isn't an insult, just truths being said.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 11, 2013)

I really don't see how Naruto wins here. Saying he is durable enough to block Juubidama means nothing when Hashirama's wood will suppress Naruto's chakra. Hashi doesn't have to overpower him. 

Arguing about the size of Naruto's bijuudama explosion is also irrelevant as they aren't even going to explode. Hashi already caught one and it didn't explode until he let it. Even if Naruto can make a barrage of giant bijuudama, Shinsuusenju at most will only require two hands to catch one. One hand is as big as a PS clad 100% kyuubi. Even being generous and saying Naruto can make one twice that size, Shisuusenju would still just need 2 hands at most to catch one. It has a thousand hands. I don't think Naruto can make almost 500 giant Bijuudama before they get caught and slammed back into him. 

The very idea of clone feints is ridiculous as both are sensors and clones are not going to fool them when the can sense everything that is happening and know where everything on the battlefield is. Naruto can make as many clones as he wants to. Not only can Hashi match his number, Hashi's large scale techniques means he can take out a large amount at once.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Not going by your first comment you didn't but glad we agree.


As in 'we don't know what Sharingan genjutsu it was or the specifics of said genjutsu'. Not a blanket 'we don't know what'.





> The bomb was in his face.


and in that ball form, his face would be protected, no.





> Do you have an actually proof of this? To me it seems like you're just making assumptions which apparently by you doesn't include any form of logic or common sense for one to make an assumption.


...its kind of common sense. A wheel is faster than swimming. Isobu was able to avoid a BM Naruto pile drive with it, remember?






> You said Jins were more power then Bijuu did you not?


As in fully realized Jinchuriki's, not 'Jins tapping into the Biju power' for the first time.




> Can't be sure with you unless I see actually see you say it in such a fashion, don't wanna make an assumptions which lack logic and common sense.







> How was he randomly throwing his power around? Because he went on the offensive and was in their face and kept attacking? Because Kishi didn't have Kurama act like how you think he should've acted?


Because Kurama attacked without plans, throwing around his power randomly, and got into a trap easily set up by Nagato via Chibaku Tensei? He was attacking like a wild beast, not a intelligent creature despite the fact he is the latter. 

Notice how you also brush off the Gyuki example too.


> There are no insults unless your getting butthurt over being called a fanboy which isn't an insult, just truths being said.


You're speaking to someone who was _banned_ for calling people fanboys. Its been a flaming insult for years.


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## Arles Celes (Nov 11, 2013)

It depends how much will Naruto's BM power increase after getting Yin Kurama. Will his power be doubled? Will it be just an increase in chakra to use more clones or/and make his chakra sharing more powerful? How compares Naruto's power mixed with Kurama to 100% Kurama alone? Is the Budda that SM Hashi created superior to Naruto and Sasuke Kyuusano as it kinda was to Madara's Kyuusano? Is Naruto's and Sasuke's Kyuusano more powerful than Naruto's 100% SBM?

I think Kishi would try to make such a match interesting so regardless of how much powerful on paper Naruto should logically get with such a power up he should be only a bit above Hashirama at best with their respective WoF being the deciding factor or some corny stuff like that.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> I really don't see how Naruto wins here. Saying he is durable enough to block Juubidama means nothing when Hashirama's wood will suppress Naruto's chakra. Hashi doesn't have to overpower him.


Hashirama has only _two_ techniques which suppress Biju, Mokuryu and Mokujin + Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu ? Kakuan Nitten Suishu, neither of which can even HIT Naruto while in BM/BSM.


> Arguing about the size of Naruto's bijuudama explosion is also irrelevant as they aren't even going to explode. Hashi already caught one and it didn't explode until he let it.


The Bijudama exploded on its own there. And it was no stronger than other Biju's, while Naruto can create ones the size of that dwarf entire Biju or equal the combined might of _five_ casually.


> Even if Naruto can make a barrage of giant bijuudama, Shinsuusenju at most will only require two hands to catch one.


Even though most of the Giant Bijudama would be larger than the Shinsusenju hands' about the same size of the head or torso?


> One hand is as big as a PS clad 100% kyuubi.


Last I checked, those hands weren't used for the offensive. Even if they could catch, all that would happen is the Super Bijudama exploding in Hashirama's face.


> Even being generous and saying Naruto can make one twice that size, Shisuusenju would still just need 2 hands at most to catch one. It has a thousand hands. I don't think Naruto can make almost 500 giant Bijuudama before they get caught and slammed back into him.


Said thousand hands were knocked out of commission by weaker rapidfire Bijudama. One Super Bijudama, if caught, would just explode and take Shinsusenju with it. And the barrage from Shinsusenju wouldn't even hurt BM/BSM Naruto.


> The very idea of clone feints is ridiculous as both are sensors and clones are not going to fool them when the can sense everything that is happening and know where everything on the battlefield is. Naruto can make as many clones as he wants to. Not only can Hashi match his number, Hashi's large scale techniques means he can take out a large amount at once.


Naruto's clone feinted Sensor's before-he feinted Nagato who is one of the best sensors in the entire manga. Hashirama's clones are also inferior to Naruto's Kage Bushin's as said in the manga given if he focuses far too much, they'll be weaker. And the large scaled techs are cancelled by Naruto's FRS or Odama Rasengan variants.


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## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> It depends how much will Naruto's BM power increase after getting Yin Kurama. Will his power be doubled? Will it be just an increase in chakra to use more clones or/and make his chakra sharing more powerful? How compares Naruto's power mixed with Kurama to 100% Kurama alone? Is the Budda that SM Hashi created superior to Naruto and Sasuke Kyuusano as it kinda was to Madara's Kyuusano? Is Naruto's and Sasuke's Kyuusano more powerful than Naruto's 100% SBM?


At the very least, Naruto with 100% Kurama should be able to make a chakra avatar comparable in size to 100% Kurama, thus his defenses would massively increase since there's a lot more 'chakra' that attacks have to go through, in addition to the 'physical' power of his chakra avatar being increased proportionally.

I think Naruto will also get an increase in firepower and basically everything, maybe even a new cloak, but those things aren't as certain as the larger avatar and by extension greater defenses and physical strength.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Hashirama has only _two_ techniques which suppress Biju, Mokuryu and Mokujin + Hokage-Shiki Jijun Jutsu ? Kakuan Nitten Suishu, neither of which can even HIT Naruto while in BM/BSM.



They can't hit? In normal form I can see that, but in the fox's avatar? They will hit. In that form Naruto doesn't have any notable speed and he's a giant target, and if he doesn't use that form, then Hashirama can easily take him out with Shinsuusenju as he won't have the defense from the fox's avatar. 



> The Bijudama exploded on its own there. And it was no stronger than other Biju's, while Naruto can create ones the size of that dwarf entire Biju or equal the combined might of _five_ casually.



It only exploded because Hashirama rammed it in Madara's face. He could  have just as easily flung it away. The giant bijuudama Naruto used was slightly larger than himself. I stand corrected. Shinsuusenju only needs one hand to grab it. Since this is 100% Kurama BM, I'll be under the assumption that Naruto makes Bijuudama scaled up in size. Still, Shinsuusenju only needs two hands maximum to grab a single giant Bijuudama assuming it is twice the size of 100% Kyuubi.



> Even though most of the Giant Bijudama would be larger than the Shinsusenju hands' about the same size of the head or torso?



You're talking about the explosion, not the Bijuudama. The Bijuudama itself was slightly larger than 50% Kurama. That is not bigger than PS clad 100% Kurama. Posting a pic of the explosion is pointless as Shinsuusenju grabbing it will not let it explode. Hell, Hashirama was confident he could lead away one of Juubito's bijuudama away, obviously without it exploding. Naruto's is nothing compared to that. If the Bijuudama is larger, then Hashirama simply uses more hands to grab it.



> Last I checked, those hands weren't used for the offensive. Even if they could catch, all that would happen is the Super Bijudama exploding in Hashirama's face.



I'm talking about Shinsuusenju's hands, and what do you mean explode in his face? It's like you're ignoring Hashirama's ability to grab Bijuudama with his wood and stop them from exploding. The only person's face they are exploding in is Naruto's when Hashirama returns them.



> Said thousand hands were knocked out of commission by weaker rapidfire Bijudama. One Super Bijudama, if caught, would just explode and take Shinsusenju with it. And the barrage from Shinsusenju wouldn't even hurt BM/BSM Naruto.



Weaker? They had Perfect Susano'o blades jammed in them. Do you think they were there for show? They increased the Bijuudama's power. In fact, the blades served another purpose. They were there so Hashirama wouldn't simply grab the Bijuudama and them back in Maddy's face. Unless Naruto can do the same thing Madara can, his Bijuudama will simply get caught and sent back. Also, you're not under the impression that Naruto is gonna rapid fire Super Bijudama are you? I doubt he can rapid fire something that takes significant more time to charge.

Naruto's own Bijuudama plus Choju Kebetsu will hurt Naruto, however small the damage. It will just stack up with more hits and more of his own Bijuudama pounding away at him, and if not, Mokujin and Mokuryu to the rescue. Once again, the Bijuudamas wouldn't explode. I find it interesting that you speak with confidence that one Super Bijuudama would take out Shinsuusenju. Certainly you are giving Naruto the feat of an explosion that had power from 5 other Bijuu.



> Naruto's clone feinted Sensor's before-he feinted Nagato who is one of the best sensors in the entire manga. Hashirama's clones are also inferior to Naruto's Kage Bushin's as said in the manga given if he focuses far too much, they'll be weaker. And the large scaled techs are cancelled by Naruto's FRS or Odama Rasengan variants.



Naruto never feinted Nagato. He feinted Pain who displayed no sensing feats. He never showed he could sense through his paths at all. If he could, it makes no sense that he would get fooled by rocks or he wouldn't know where his own path of pain and his enemy is. That, and obscuring his vision should not have been such a big deal. And one of the best? What feat puts him with the best? Besides, Sage Mode makes anyone a formidable sensor. Certainly you won't deny that. Naruto could sense the entirety of Konoha with great detail, sensed everything that was going on in the war, and Kabuto could even fight blind. Clone feints can only fool eyes. Hashirama won't need to rely on his. 

His clones are weaker than Naruto's? I didn't see that. Hashi's clones were weaker because he was focusing all of his power into the most powerful barrier shown in the series. Not only that, the one that fodderized him was Madara, who had power close or equal to 100% Hashirama. I do agree with Naruto handling his large scale techniques. Hashirama will need to use no less than Shisuusenju to handle the swarming clones. Of course, Shisuusenju's range will make ordinary clones non factors, and I've yet to see any Naruto but the original use the fox's avatar.


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## Bonly (Nov 11, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...its kind of common sense.



I started reading and then I got to this. I had one hell of a good laugh, in fact I had a couple and I honestly couldn't get past this part lol. 

So let me make sure I understand this. 

So I ask for actually feats of Isobu moving faster in the form of a ball spinning(in a fashion which mocks you).

You then provide about zero actually evidence to shows or a statement that is being made about Isobu being faster in the form of a ball instead or swimming. You then can go and justify it by saying it's common sense and you thinks it's ok. And yet you refuse to even think 100 Kurama is not weaker because it hasn't been stated by anyone that he did get weaker. Wait. What's that smell? Oh yeah, that's the sweet smell of hypocrisy.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 11, 2013)

You motherfuckers need to stop arguing like chicks and get down to meat of it.

It's 100% Sage Kurama vs Budha.

Stop wasting your energy on all these irrelevant arguments.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 11, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> They can't hit? In normal form I can see that, but in the fox's avatar? They will hit. In that form Naruto doesn't have any notable speed and he's a giant target, and if he doesn't use that form, then Hashirama can easily take him out with Shinsuusenju as he won't have the defense from the fox's avatar.


Naruto in Biju Sage Mode both tracked and cornered Obito in his Jyubi form. Same Obito which blitzed Hashirama utterly. And Shinsusenju is literally in slow motion if Naruto stays without the full Avatar. 




> It only exploded because Hashirama rammed it in Madara's face. He could  have just as easily flung it away. The giant bijuudama Naruto used was slightly larger than himself. I stand corrected. Shinsuusenju only needs one hand to grab it. Since this is 100% Kurama BM, I'll be under the assumption that Naruto makes Bijuudama scaled up in size. Still, Shinsuusenju only needs two hands maximum to grab a single giant Bijuudama assuming it is twice the size of 100% Kyuubi.


No, it exploded since the Bijudama itself detonated. Super Bijudama grows to the size of the Shinsusenju's head or torso when Naruto uses it, and he can make 'smaller' ones while partially transformed (making a Bijudama larger than an entire Biju's body) and one that's powerful and large enough that dwarves the size of five Biju at the same time (same size and power as the one the Biju's used against him). Shinsusenju would be obliterated by the size of the Super Bijudama's explosion. Hell, now with Sage Mode adding to it, Super Bijudama gets not only bigger but far more powerful, why hadn't you accounted for that?




> You're talking about the explosion, not the Bijuudama. The Bijuudama itself was slightly larger than 50% Kurama. That is not bigger than PS clad 100% Kurama. Posting a pic of the explosion is pointless as Shinsuusenju grabbing it will not let it explode. Hell, Hashirama was confident he could lead away one of Juubito's bijuudama away, obviously without it exploding. Naruto's is nothing compared to that. If the Bijuudama is larger, then Hashirama simply uses more hands to grab it.


Hashirama is kind of an idiot and he has no feats that show he can deflect a Bijudama the size of those Obito or the Juubi made. Not only that, Naruto can regularly create Bijudama's the size of Shinsusenju's head or torso, and enhanced with Senjutsu means they are far more powerful. 




> I'm talking about Shinsuusenju's hands, and what do you mean explode in his face? It's like you're ignoring Hashirama's ability to grab Bijuudama with his wood and stop them from exploding. The only person's face they are exploding in is Naruto's when Hashirama returns them.


He doesn't 'stop them from exploding' though. Bijudama have been caught before and still exploded, remember during SM Naruto vs Kurama when Gyuki caught the Bijudama and it exploded afterwards? 




> Weaker? They had Perfect Susano'o blades jammed in them. Do you think they were there for show? They increased the Bijuudama's power. In fact, the blades served another purpose. They were there so Hashirama wouldn't simply grab the Bijuudama and them back in Maddy's face. Unless Naruto can do the same thing Madara can, his Bijuudama will simply get caught and sent back. Also, you're not under the impression that Naruto is gonna rapid fire Super Bijudama are you? I doubt he can rapid fire something that takes significant more time to charge.


You do realize the blades don't ADD firepower, just _cutting_ power, right? Swords alone don't do the damage Perfect Susano'o swinging them does. Madara put the swords to make it harder for Hashirama to catch, NOT increase their power since a sword alone doesn't have the power. 

Naruto only needs one Cho Bijudama to destroy Shinsusenju. Or he could use Cho Odama Rasenshuriken.


> Naruto's own Bijuudama plus Choju Kebetsu will hurt Naruto, however small the damage. It will just stack up with more hits and more of his own Bijuudama pounding away at him, and if not, Mokujin and Mokuryu to the rescue. Once again, the Bijuudamas wouldn't explode. I find it interesting that you speak with confidence that one Super Bijuudama would take out Shinsuusenju. Certainly you are giving Naruto the feat of an explosion that had power from 5 other Bijuu.


Naruto's Super Bijudama is far stronger than Shinsusenju and it would obliterate it. He equaled the might of FIVE of them with ONE, that is more power than Shinsusenju can handle. And why can't Naruto detonate it himself?




> Naruto never feinted Nagato. He feinted Pain who displayed no sensing feats. He never showed he could sense through his paths at all. If he could, it makes no sense that he would get fooled by rocks or he wouldn't know where his own path of pain and his enemy is. That, and obscuring his vision should not have been such a big deal. And one of the best? What feat puts him with the best? Besides, Sage Mode makes anyone a formidable sensor. Certainly you won't deny that. Naruto could sense the entirety of Konoha with great detail, sensed everything that was going on in the war, and Kabuto could even fight blind. Clone feints can only fool eyes. Hashirama won't need to rely on his.


So now you're giving Hashirama Sage Mode Naruto's sensing feats then? And Nagato is a sensor regardless, Pain is just an extension of Nagato's own body due to him being immobile. Nagato can sense countries away and he was STILL feinted by Naruto.


> His clones are weaker than Naruto's? I didn't see that. Hashi's clones were weaker because he was focusing all of his power into the most powerful barrier shown in the series. Not only that, the one that fodderized him was Madara, who had power close or equal to 100% Hashirama. I do agree with Naruto handling his large scale techniques. Hashirama will need to use no less than Shisuusenju to handle the swarming clones. Of course, Shisuusenju's range will make ordinary clones non factors, and I've yet to see any Naruto but the original use the fox's avatar.


Yeah, his clones are weaker than Naruto's. Madara fucking defeated them while _sitting down_. Naruto's clones were beating Kages and turning the tide of an entire War remember? And Madara used the clone's OWN ATTACK to destroy it, remember? And said Swarming Clones can toss hundreds of Futon: Rasenshurikens and use Cho Odama Rasengans to counter things. And not only that, Biju Mode Clones should be able to use the full fox Avatar too.


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## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> *The Bijuudama itself was slightly larger than 50% Kurama. *That is not bigger than PS clad 100% Kurama.





VolatileSoul said:


> *The Bijuudama itself was slightly larger than 50% Kurama. *





VolatileSoul said:


> *The Bijuudama itself was slightly larger than 50% Kurama. *






Look me straight in the eye and tell me that this bijuudama is only "slightly larger" than 50% Kurama:


in addition to that mokujin's hands had to be large enough to grab the whole bijuudama, now he's up against a bijuudama that's by your own words 'double the size of that one' in addition to being doubled beyond that due to it being powered up by sennin mode.  So even if we allow Mokubuddah mokujin's catching feats, it won't be able to do it because the new bijuudama is far larger than what mokubuddah can grab, and don't even get me started on using *this scan* to scale the bijuudama vs mokubuddah rather than the later one which has 100% Kurama on the lowest end of its size spectrum.


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## IpHr0z3nI (Nov 11, 2013)

Panther said:


> God Tree -----> Moukuton dragon that would get trashed by a single FRS or chakra roar if BM Naruto had intel and didn't decide to wrestle it.


Sigh

Panther, panther, panther.........There's something called proof, you'd seem to be ignoring.

FRS or Chakara roar have showcased little to arbitrate them being effective against something as featured as Mokuryū. And Mokuryū can easily be paired with Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu, or this much like here.




> oh wow he catched a standart bijuudama from Kurama.... let's see how he deals with 5 of those in rapid succesion when his Moukuton Mokujin has only 2 arms.


Only has two arms, A? Someone hasn't been reading.

He also has this in his back pocket.




> stop spreading you're biased opinion as fact when it's manga canon that SM is a stat booster


Stop calling something bias, in which you cannot disprove.

I'm perfectly aware what SM enhances ones stats, but THIS IS THE BATTLEDOME Mr. Panther sir, thus there's something called feats and such.

SM has yet to be demonstrated enhancing any of Naruto's attacks while utilizing BM, thus far. As such, you have no room to call something a bias OPINION, as what I arbitrated wasn't an opinion at all.



> That "lesser" susanoo was being powered up more than 3x by Naruto's chakra cloack + Juugo's CS, still doesn't change the fact that BM Naruto tanked a more powerfull attack than Buddha's 1000 punches with just 6 of his tails.


That "lesser" Susano'o was arbitrated too.............

"Still not at maximum" potential, HELL IT WAS CONSIDERED TO BE LESSER THAN THIS.

Mr. Panther earlier you argued something along the lines of "BIAS OPINION", yet you seem to be full of that.

""FRS or Chakara" being able to trash Mokuton dragon"
"Lesser Susano'o being powered by Naruto's chakara + Juugo"

Both are OPINIONS that are jaded.

Sasuke's SUSANO'O THERE was never passed off to be anything more than Sasuke's potential. Hell, it was even ARGUABLY AN APPETIZER to THIS main course.

Add another ENTRY on your "BIAS OPINION" list, mate. 

"still doesn't change the fact that BM Naruto tanked a more powerfull attack than Buddha's 1000 punches with just 6 of his tails."

Note that THIS SUSANO'O is considered to be above this Susano'o. Hence is why Sasuke's later feat trump the previous one. Hence is why the later was compared to what Madara did years before.

The Buddha's statue is more than capable of breaching Naruto's shroud. Unless you want to arbitrate THIS IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THIS.






> do you by any chance have a lack of reading comprehension ? that "mate" is SM FRS. What I was talking about was This BM Naruto's FRS casually slicing V2 Juubi's tails which tanked it's own country busting Bijuudama


Lack of reading comprehension, A? 

Yet none of the panels presented showcases FRS slicing through anything.

This isn't FRS.






> First of all Madara =/= Hashirama.
> 
> Hashirama doesn't have sharingan to track fast objects like BM Naruto + he also doesn't have Madara's fan


LMAO, what?

So naruto is going to speed blitz Hashirama?

Perhaps you should read before responding, as I merely showcase the above to arbitrate just how useless Naruto's clones have been against big fish.



> And even if he had his fan he wouldn't be able to replicate that feat, the first time that BM clone didn't have any knowledge about the fan repelling attacks, with knowledge the clone can easily use his chakra arm to guide his mini-tbb around Hashi/Madz fan and strike from behind.


Doesn't need a fan....

And again, you fail to see my point.

I was arbitrating just how useless Naruto's clones have been, and nothing in this portion of your post disproves that argument.



> what exactly are you trying to show here ? that SM clone sacrificed himself to safe Kakashi at the last moment and got popped by Juubi's tail. Which i dodn't see Hashirama replicating when he has to concentrate on BM Naruto


What, what? How it happened is irrelevant, as my only point was Naruto's clones were fodderized against the big boys...

Hashirama doesn't have to concentrate just on BM Naruto, as he has clones HIMSELF, ALSO. Clones that have proven to be capable of surviving longer on the battle than Naruto's own variation.



> and it's not as if Hashi's clones aren't fodder lvl that got pierced by a sitting madara
> come again when Hashirama's clones are displaying kage lvl feats and running around battlefields owning Kage lvl opponents with minimal help.


That's exactly my point.....

Clones can and will be fodderized against major players.

And only a single Naruto clone his still on kage lvl feats.
The rest of them have been well..................

And finally what's a Kage lvl to Hashi, the quote on quote "GOD OF SHINOBI"
Wasn't Naruto's clones being handled by Madara's Susano'o as well.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 12, 2013)

Lmao. These fucking hard heads.

Anyone in here that was around when Naruto first got KCM? Can you remember the absolutely retarded Battledome arguments about his speed? That you know...KCM DID NOT increase his speed in any shape or form? THAT SHIT?!

Well this is it all over again.
But worse. 
I'm begging you guys to STOP FEEDING INTO THEIR REALITY.
For fuck sake its obvious even they know their talking goat dung by standing firm on this absolutely stupid point that Sage Mode does nothing to Naruto's BM.

But if you GUYS...are gonna KEEP ARGUING WITH THEM ABOUT IT...well ofcourse they're going to continue to fight their point. It's as bad as people buying & giving Call of Duty 1 Billion annually and wonder why its more of the same.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto in Biju Sage Mode both tracked and cornered Obito in his Jyubi form. Same Obito which blitzed Hashirama utterly. And Shinsusenju is literally in slow motion if Naruto stays without the full Avatar.



Yes. He blitzed a base Hashirama clone. If I'm not mistaken, this is Sage Mode Hashirama no? Besides, evading something that can cover miles in a short moment is difficult even for Naruto, and impossible if he is in the fox's avatar. If he is not in that state, then he can't do anything to Hashirama either.




> No, it exploded since the Bijudama itself detonated. Super Bijudama grows to the size of the Shinsusenju's head or torso when Naruto uses it, and he can make 'smaller' ones while partially transformed (making a Bijudama larger than an entire Biju's body) and one that's powerful and large enough that dwarves the size of five Biju at the same time (same size and power as the one the Biju's used against him). Shinsusenju would be obliterated by the size of the Super Bijudama's explosion. Hell, now with Sage Mode adding to it, Super Bijudama gets not only bigger but far more powerful, why hadn't you accounted for that?



That's not what I saw. He grabbed it and it only exploded when he rammed it in Madara's face. It didn't explode by touching the wood. Am I correct or not? Again with it being blown up by the explosion. What don't you get about the whole catching them thing? Even if it is as big as the head or torso, then Hashirama simply uses more hands to catch them. I doubt more than four hands will be necessary. I didn't need to account for Sage Mode as I didn't see the bijuudama exploding on contact.




> Hashirama is kind of an idiot and he has no feats that show he can deflect a Bijudama the size of those Obito or the Juubi made. Not only that, Naruto can regularly create Bijudama's the size of Shinsusenju's head or torso, and enhanced with Senjutsu means they are far more powerful.



This seems like trolling right here. Hashirama of all people an idiot? I don't know if I should take you seriously at this point. Certainly the man knows his own limits. Again, Naruto could make a Bijuudama as big as Shinsuusenju itself. Hashirama can then grab it with all 1000 hands. This argument is over and done with. 



> He doesn't 'stop them from exploding' though. Bijudama have been caught before and still exploded, remember during SM Naruto vs Kurama when Gyuki caught the Bijudama and it exploded afterwards?



This is Hashirama not Bee or Gyuuki. Hashirama has shown the feats of catching them without them exploding. He has the power to suppress Bijuu after all. 



> You do realize the blades don't ADD firepower, just _cutting_ power, right? Swords alone don't do the damage Perfect Susano'o swinging them does. Madara put the swords to make it harder for Hashirama to catch, NOT increase their power since a sword alone doesn't have the power.



You know what I mean. They were for added destructive capacity. Perfect Susano'o was the one that flung the swords in the first place so I don't see what your getting at. Throwing those huge things by something as strong as Perfect Susano'o put momentum behind them. Just as the sword slash had momentum behind it.



> Naruto only needs one Cho Bijudama to destroy Shinsusenju. Or he could use Cho Odama Rasenshuriken.
> Naruto's Super Bijudama is far stronger than Shinsusenju and it would obliterate it. He equaled the might of FIVE of them with ONE, that is more power than Shinsusenju can handle. And why can't Naruto detonate it himself?



The giant Bijuudama, assuming it was twice the size of 100% Kurama, would not destroy Shisuusenju. Significantly damage, but not destroy. Not only that, Hashirama once again will simply catch it and either ram it into Naruto or throw it away. Naruto equaling the might of 5 other bijuu. Impressive, but against the guy who kept those things as pets, Naruto is going to need something more impressive. I don't know why that is more than what Shinsuusenju can handle. It handled 10 Bijuudama equipped with PS blades, all coming from a stronger bijuu. Five lesser bijuudama, even when combined, is nothing.



> So now you're giving Hashirama Sage Mode Naruto's sensing feats then? And Nagato is a sensor regardless, Pain is just an extension of Nagato's own body due to him being immobile. Nagato can sense countries away and he was STILL feinted by Naruto.



Exactly, because Perfect Sage Mode is Perfect Sage Mode. If anything, Hashirama should be better due to having it longer and being more experienced, and being better at everything than everyone else. I doubt you believe Hashirama doesn't possess Sensing in Sage Mode. I don't remember Nagato sensing anything countries away. In fact, I remember Pain having to use Rain Tiger at Will to sense within his own country. Unless Nagato has shown some feat of sensing through Pain, then I will still operate under the assumption that he cannot.

Explain to me a scenario in which Naruto could feint Hashirama. The only way I see a clone feint working is if Naruto uses it to play dead, but then Hashirama would be able to sense that the original is still alive.



> Yeah, his clones are weaker than Naruto's. Madara fucking defeated them while _sitting down_. Naruto's clones were beating Kages and turning the tide of an entire War remember? And Madara used the clone's OWN ATTACK to destroy it, remember? And said Swarming Clones can toss hundreds of Futon: Rasenshurikens and use Cho Odama Rasengans to counter things. And not only that, Biju Mode Clones should be able to use the full fox Avatar too.



Don't pretend you can't read. Madara said Hashirama was focusing too much of his power into the Four Red Suns barrier. The barrier is clearly draining as it took four Hokage to perform. Hashirama said his chakra was equal to or greater Minato's and Naruto's chakra combined, yet was barely able to make clones in the first place. Hell Minato wasn't even able to use it in base, unless he simply activated BM for show. As the icing on the cake, it was Madara himself who beat the clone. Madara, who is stronger than everyone Naruto beat in the war combined. Besides, he beat Naruto's clone with even less effort. He didn't even need to use Susano'o or any ninjutsu, and that clone had half of Naruto's full power, while Hashirama's had almost none.



ueharakk said:


> Look me straight in the eye and tell me that this bijuudama is only "slightly larger" than 50% Kurama:
> 
> 
> in addition to that mokujin's hands had to be large enough to grab the whole bijuudama, now he's up against a bijuudama that's by your own words 'double the size of that one' in addition to being doubled beyond that due to it being powered up by sennin mode.  So even if we allow Mokubuddah mokujin's catching feats, it won't be able to do it because the new bijuudama is far larger than what mokubuddah can grab, and don't even get me started on using *this scan* to scale the bijuudama vs mokubuddah rather than the later one which has 100% Kurama on the lowest end of its size spectrum.



I stand corrected. Forgive me. Also, I was under the assumption Shinsuusenju would be doing the grabbing, not Mokujin. I really don't see why it can't grab it. We can make it four times the size of PS clad 100% Kurama. It simply uses more hands to catch something that is bigger.


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## Kai (Nov 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto in Biju Sage Mode both tracked and cornered Obito in his Jyubi form. Same Obito which blitzed Hashirama utterly.


Madara was handling six Hashiramas while sitting down.

Doesn't sound so right when it's not in favor of your cause, does it?


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## Panther (Nov 12, 2013)

IpHr0z3nI said:


> Sigh
> 
> Panther, panther, panther.........There's something called proof, you'd seem to be ignoring.
> 
> *FRS or Chakara roar have showcased little to arbitrate them being effective against something as featured as Mokuryū*.


 So you have no proof to support what you said aside from your opinion? good to know.

your downplaying FRS and BM Naruto's Chakra roar and overrrating Mokuryu that got bisected in half by Kurama's claw, but it also got busted open by BM Naruto's shunshin

So yes Mokuryu gets bisected and destroyed by FRS or gets crushed and thrown away some couple km by BM Naruto's chakra roar, unless you believe that Kurama's claw -> FRS and BM Naruto's shunshin burst -> BM Naruto's chakra roar which send 5 bijuu's away some couple of km



> And Mokuryū can easily be paired with Mokuton: Hōbi no Jutsu, Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu, or this much like here.


 Both get destroyed by 3 rapidfire bijuudama's, 2get catched while the third hits them and destroys them in the blast radius.



> Only has two arms, A? Someone hasn't been reading.


 featless and hasn't shown to catch bijuudama's like Moukuton: Hobi no jutsu, that's the only jutsu in Hashirama's arsenal that has shown feats of catching bijuudama's and it's stay's that way till we actually see any bijuudama catching feats from those arms.



> He also has this in his back pocket.


 lol that shit was only effective cuz Madara put his PS blade inside that standart TBB which resulting in it's trajectory being changed, those rashoumon gates are fodder since 3 of them were destroyed by KN4 tiny ass bijuudama which isn't nowhere near in firepower to a mountain buster and 2 more gates aren't gonna chance anything.



> Stop calling something bias, in which you cannot disprove.
> 
> I'm perfectly aware what SM enhances ones stats, but THIS IS THE BATTLEDOME Mr. Panther sir, thus there's something called feats and such.
> 
> *SM has yet to be demonstrated enhancing any of Naruto's attacks while utilizing BM, thus far*. As such, you have no room to call something a bias OPINION, as what I arbitrated wasn't an opinion at all.


 We didn't get a direct scan of SM enhancing BM Naruto's jutsu, but we saw how BSM Naruto enhanced BM Minato's normal rasengan, if he can do that to other people then he can do that to his own jutsu while in BSM

but if you want to talk about feats then lets talk about feats.



> "Still not at maximum" potential, HELL IT WAS CONSIDERED TO BE LESSER THAN THIS.


 That ''maximum potential'' has yet to show any feats that imply's ---> the former Susanoo that got boosted by Naruto's chakra cloack and Juugo's CS. That '' Maximum potential'' has just the PS look going on since in the feats department its lacking a llot.



> Mr. Panther earlier you argued something along the lines of "BIAS OPINION", yet you seem to be full of that.
> 
> ""FRS or Chakara" being able to trash Mokuton dragon"
> "*Lesser Susano'o being powered by Naruto's chakara + Juugo*"


 Still in denial that Sasuke was only relevant against Juubito because of the power boost he got of Naruto's chakra cloack and Juugo's CS  

Sasuke =/= Madara, only Madara has shown to add legs to his lower forms of susanoo, just as he has shown to be the only one to see trough kb's, it's also Canon that BM Naruto's chakra cloack boost your chakra and jutsu more than 3x, it's also *Canon* that the chakra cloack that the sauce received was even more powerfull than the previous one that was stated to be more 3x powerfull It's only thanks to Naruto chakra cloack that Saske unlocked that Susanoo otherwise Sasuke wouldn't be useless at the side line till he got Naruto cloack.



> The Buddha's statue is more than capable of breaching Naruto's shroud. Unless you want to arbitrate THIS IS MORE POWERFUL THAN THIS.


 Sure it's more powerfull, it destroyed BSM Naruto shroud which is something Juubi couldn't do and created a crater almost as big as the one created from CST. Hashirama's Buddha isn't breaching BM Naruto's shroud, unless your implying that the Buddha's punches that were getting destroyed by rapidfire bijuudama's -----> Juubi's laderdama in firepower.



> *Lack of reading comprehension*, A?
> 
> Yet none of the panels presented showcases FRS slicing through anything.
> 
> This isn't FRS.


 well it's gonna be the lack of reading comprehension or the fact that you dodn't want to see things that dodn't suit your argument.

everyone who isn't biased or blind can see Naruto leading the charge with 2 FRS in his hands while extending his right arm with his FRS to slice Juubi's tails In the next scan wee see BM Naruto leading the charge with only 1 FRS in his left hand cuz he used the FRS from his right hand one to slice Juubi's tails



> LMAO, what?
> 
> So naruto is going to speed blitz Hashirama?


 Hashirama gets blitzed since he hasn't shown any reaction and physical feats to suggest he can react to RM Naruto's shunshin speed let alone BM Naruto's speed.



> Perhaps you should read before responding, as I merely showcase the above to arbitrate just how useless Naruto's clones have been against big fish.


 And your ignoring the circumentstances in which those clones got destroyed since that shows how bullshit your argument is of Naruto's ''clones being useless''



> Doesn't need a fan....
> 
> And again, you fail to see my point.
> 
> I was arbitrating just how useless Naruto's clones have been, and nothing in this portion of your post disproves that argument.


 I disproved your argument by showing the circumentstances that those clones got destroyed.



> What, what? How it happened is irrelevant, as my only point was Naruto's clones were fodderized against the big boys...


 It's irrevelant cuz that Big boy is the Juubi which is ----------> Hashi and Madz combined at their best day.



> *Hashirama doesn't have to concentrate just on BM Naruto, as he has clones HIMSELF, ALSO*. Clones that have proven to be capable of surviving longer on the battle than Naruto's own variation.


 ugh whut ? are you implying that Hashirama doesn't have to concentrate on BM Naruto because his clones are gonna stall BM Naruto ? 

Hashirama is gonna *need* to concentrate on BSM Naruto if he wants to stay alive.

Also Hashirama's clones are featless and got killed by a sitting Madara, some Base clones with chou odama rasengan would destroy Hashirama's clones 



> And only a single Naruto clone his still on kage lvl feats.
> The rest of them have been well..................


 Irrelevant since all KB's are made the same, if Dat clone could defeat Mu and Sandaime Raikage with minimal help, then any other RM clone can do the same.



> And finally what's a Kage lvl to Hashi, the quote on quote "GOD OF SHINOBI"
> Wasn't Naruto's clones being handled by Madara's Susano'o as well.


 Hashi's ''GOD Of SHINOBI'' title isn't gonna take care of Naruto's kage lvl RM clones, neither are his featless clones that get soloe'd by a sitting Madara

Shows how bias you are by posting a scan of Madara's Susanoo throwing away *Naruto's BASE clones *to try and prove that RM clones are useless


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 12, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Yes. He blitzed a base Hashirama clone. If I'm not mistaken, this is Sage Mode Hashirama no? Besides, evading something that can cover miles in a short moment is difficult even for Naruto, and impossible if he is in the fox's avatar. If he is not in that state, then he can't do anything to Hashirama either.


Jinchuriki Obito also blitzed Tobirama, who is by all rights faster than Hashirama (the two kept to the same speed, if not Tobirama being a bit faster due to Hiraishin). Naruto managed to not only track Jinchuriki Obito's insane speed (in a more powerful form) but _corner and attack him._





> That's not what I saw. He grabbed it and it only exploded when he rammed it in Madara's face. It didn't explode by touching the wood. Am I correct or not? Again with it being blown up by the explosion. What don't you get about the whole catching them thing? Even if it is as big as the head or torso, then Hashirama simply uses more hands to catch them. I doubt more than four hands will be necessary. I didn't need to account for Sage Mode as I didn't see the bijuudama exploding on contact.


You do realize that the Bijudama also melts everything that it comes in contact with right?  And the Bijudama was going to detonate anyway, Hashirama didn't stop its explosion at all. Just like how Killer Bee didn't stop the explosion of the Bijudama he caught.





> This seems like trolling right here. Hashirama of all people an idiot? I don't know if I should take you seriously at this point. Certainly the man knows his own limits. Again, Naruto could make a Bijuudama as big as Shinsuusenju itself. Hashirama can then grab it with all 1000 hands. This argument is over and done with.


You do realize the bigger the Bijudama the greater the mass right? Shinsusenju nor Hashirama can survive a Bijudama explosion this fucking big. Naruto also lent most of the energy to that Bijudama with Bee's help being minimal. And all 1000 hands grabbing it will just ignite from the heat Bijudama gives off.

And there is no fucking way Hashirama can stop a Juubi Bijudama on his own, its far out of his league. 


> This is Hashirama not Bee or Gyuuki. Hashirama has shown the feats of catching them without them exploding. He has the power to suppress Bijuu after all.


Except he only has two techniques which DO suppress Biju chakra. Just Mokuton alone doesn't. Not only that, Hashirama never stopped a Bijudama as powerful as a super Bijudama, only one that was as strong as the individual ones the other Biju shot out.




> You know what I mean. They were for added destructive capacity. Perfect Susano'o was the one that flung the swords in the first place so I don't see what your getting at. Throwing those huge things by something as strong as Perfect Susano'o put momentum behind them. Just as the sword slash had momentum behind it.


The sword was used to turn the Bijudama into a giant shuriken. The blades alone don't add more power to the Bijudama-just cutting ability. Unless you can show the sword making the Bijudama actually stronger?




> The giant Bijuudama, assuming it was twice the size of 100% Kurama, would not destroy Shisuusenju. Significantly damage, but not destroy. Not only that, Hashirama once again will simply catch it and either ram it into Naruto or throw it away. Naruto equaling the might of 5 other bijuu. Impressive, but against the guy who kept those things as pets, Naruto is going to need something more impressive. I don't know why that is more than what Shinsuusenju can handle. It handled 10 Bijuudama equipped with PS blades, all coming from a stronger bijuu. Five lesser bijuudama, even when combined, is nothing.


The Super Bijudama would by four to six times as large as 100% Kurama, which would dwarf Shinsusenju. Shinsusenju was taken out by a weaker barrage of Renkozu Bijudama, yet you believe the Super Bijudama wouldn't wipe the Shinsusenju off the map? Seriously? And Hashirama has two techniques which suppress the chakra and put the Biju asleep-he never _overpowered_ a Biju like Naruto has, much less _five_. Renkozu Bijudama (the PS blades just add cutting power, nothing more) is a weaker technique than the standard Bijudama since its a rapid fire attack.

Naruto equaling the might of five fucking Biju after physically beating them down then beating all five at once is more impressive than what Hashirama did. And this is WITHOUT Sage Mode added to Biju Mode.




> Exactly, because Perfect Sage Mode is Perfect Sage Mode. If anything, Hashirama should be better due to having it longer and being more experienced, and being better at everything than everyone else. I doubt you believe Hashirama doesn't possess Sensing in Sage Mode. I don't remember Nagato sensing anything countries away. In fact, I remember Pain having to use Rain Tiger at Will to sense within his own country. Unless Nagato has shown some feat of sensing through Pain, then I will still operate under the assumption that he cannot.


Except we don't know what Hashirama's Sage Mode actually does differently than Naruto's or Kabuto's. Hashirama's only gives him the ability to create constructs as big as Shinsusenju so far. He's already a natural sensor, but guess what its inferior to Tobirama's. 

Nagato sensed a country away during the War. Remember, he was the one who found Kabuto in his barrier hideout all the way in Mountain's Grave and told Itachi where he was. And Nagato himself does the sensing, not the Pain bodies since they are just extensions through his body.


> Explain to me a scenario in which Naruto could feint Hashirama. The only way I see a clone feint working is if Naruto uses it to play dead, but then Hashirama would be able to sense that the original is still alive.


Naruto's fooled sensors before (Nagato example) and even the fucking Byakugan. There is no reason why Hashirama is exempt from it other than your preference towards him.




> Don't pretend you can't read. Madara said Hashirama was focusing too much of his power into the Four Red Suns barrier. The barrier is clearly draining as it took four Hokage to perform. Hashirama said his chakra was equal to or greater Minato's and Naruto's chakra combined, yet was barely able to make clones in the first place. Hell Minato wasn't even able to use it in base, unless he simply activated BM for show. As the icing on the cake, it was Madara himself who beat the clone. Madara, who is stronger than everyone Naruto beat in the war combined. Besides, he beat Naruto's clone with even less effort. He didn't even need to use Susano'o or any ninjutsu, and that clone had half of Naruto's full power, while Hashirama's had almost none.


And you need reading comprehension too. Hashirama said the volume of the chakra that _Naruto had given out_ was comparable to his own, not that his own chakra was equal to or greater than Hashirama's combined. 

And again, Madara only defeated the BM Naruto clone by turning his own attack against him. Funny how you forgot that little detail.

Oh and if Madara was so much stronger than BM Naruto, why was Naruto not only able to force him to become serious or Madara wasn't able to defeat BM Naruto?


> I stand corrected. Forgive me. Also, I was under the assumption Shinsuusenju would be doing the grabbing, not Mokujin. I really don't see why it can't grab it. We can make it four times the size of PS clad 100% Kurama. It simply uses more hands to catch something that is bigger.


And those hands would melt. The Bijudama would erupt in an explosion that would literally wipe Shinsusenju off the map: it was fucking taken out by a weaker variant of the Bijudama for fuck's sake.


Kai said:


> Madara was handling six Hashiramas while sitting down.
> 
> Doesn't sound so right when it's not in favor of your cause, does it?


Jinchuriki Obito blitzed the real Tobirama though whose speed is equal to or greater than Hashirama's. The real Hashirama would have been blitzed too.


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## Kai (Nov 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jinchuriki Obito blitzed the real Tobirama though whose speed is equal to or greater than Hashirama's. The real Hashirama would have been blitzed too.


That remains to be seen as there are multiple instances where Hashi's Mokuton clones are fodder against a top tier.

Plus, Naruto says: "Shit. He really is fast. *But I'm slowly getting his timing down...!"*



Naruto has been fighting Jin Obito since he became the jin and was blitzed several times. What he says implies that he is starting to be able to see Obito (through fighting experience), which is similar to what Sasuke said about Haku as Haku continuously moved through his Ice Mirrors.

There's nothing to really go against the idea that Hashi can begin to "see" Obito as he fights him through an extensive battle.

If Naruto fought Obito without getting used to Obito's attacks and timing, he would be blitzed from the start. As we've seen throughout the fight, Naruto has been knocked down multiple times and gotten back up to try again. His skills have been refined *while* fighting Obito. That can't be used against Hashi who has been occupied by Madara throughout the entire fight.


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Nov 12, 2013)

As much as I'd like to say Naruto, Madara has already shown us what Mokuton can do against Tailed Beast Mode. While adding Sage Mode would help Naruto, with Hashirama having it as well, any advantages Naruto had are thrown out of the window (and by that, I mean like not having his sage chakra absorbed). Not only that, but Hashirama has Gate of the Great God which was strong enough to subdue Juubi. If Naruto uses multiple shadow clones, Hashirama can counter with multiple wood clones. Naruto has nothing to counter Advent of a World of Flowers, and gets put to sleep. Hashirama can summon the Ten Thousand Hand Buddha, already confirmed to be bigger than Kurama, and thrash the fuck out of Naruto. So, yeah, Naruto is pretty outclassed here.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 12, 2013)

Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> As much as I'd like to say Naruto, Madara has already shown us what Mokuton can do against Tailed Beast Mode. While adding Sage Mode would help Naruto, with Hashirama having it as well, any advantages Naruto had are thrown out of the window (and by that, I mean like not having his sage chakra absorbed). Not only that, but Hashirama has Gate of the Great God which was strong enough to subdue Juubi. If Naruto uses multiple shadow clones, Hashirama can counter with multiple wood clones. Naruto has nothing to counter Advent of a World of Flowers, and gets put to sleep. Hashirama can summon the Ten Thousand Hand Buddha, already confirmed to be bigger than Kurama, and thrash the fuck out of Naruto. So, yeah, Naruto is pretty outclassed here.


You mean force Naruto out of his full Avatar, Rinnegan Zetsu, before destroying the Mokuryu and reforming it with ease? And no, Biju Sage Mode is a greater force magnifier than what Hashirama has. Myojinmon will never hurt Naruto as well and Naruto can't counter Flower Tree World? One Bijudama or FRS completely annihilates it. And Shinsusenju isn't strong enough to defeat the Kurama Avatar Naruto summons around him in Biju Mode given he can fucking tank a Jyubidama from the Jyubi! One Super Bijudama from Naruto wipes Shinsusenju off the map.

Also you convienently ignore Naruto's speed advantage, his sensing advantage (both chakra sensing AND negative emotions sensing), his higher durability (tanked Obito's smash and V1 Jyuubi Bijudama), as well as his overall greater firepower.


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## ueharakk (Nov 12, 2013)

Cringe-worthy



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> As much as I'd like to say Naruto, Madara has already shown us what Mokuton can do against Tailed Beast Mode. While adding Sage Mode would help Naruto, with Hashirama having it as well, any advantages Naruto had are thrown out of the window (and by that, I mean like not having his sage chakra absorbed).


Yes, Madara's shown us exactly what happens when you try to fight mokuton without using any ninjutsu: you eventually get your chakra cloak absorbed.

*Madara* and *Naruto* also show us that when you do use ninjutsu, how utterly easy it is *to destroy* all of base hashirama's mokutons.

So unless you want to argue that BSM Naruto despite having manga knowledge is going to go and wrestle with every mokuton that is thrown at him throughout the entire match without ever stopping and thinking "hey maybe i should use ninjutsu on this stuff" then none of what you've just typed has no play on the fight.



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> Not only that, but Hashirama has Gate of the Great God which was strong enough to subdue Juubi.


yet juubito just fodderizes them which shows that you don't need juubi-level power if your channeling your chakra through a jinchuriki.  BM Minato was able to slap away the same juubi tails that the gates were suppressing.  Not that Hashirama would ever hit Naruto with that technique anyways.



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> If Naruto uses multiple shadow clones, Hashirama can counter with multiple wood clones.



When a base naruto clone, amped with such little kurama chakra he can't even regain the KCM cloak, *destroys a mokuton far greater* than anything any of *hashirama's base clones have been shown to be capable of*, Hashirama's clones are fodder compared to KCM, KSM, BM, or BSM Naruto clones.



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> Naruto has nothing to counter Advent of a World of Flowers, and gets put to sleep.



How about bijuudama, you know the attack *even Bee can spam,* and the attack that canonically destroyed *Mokuryu, mokujin and a flower tree world larger than the one madara used?*

Or how about just sitting in FTW since Naruto's cloak is airtight?  KCM Naruto can deal with FTW, the technique is complete fodder to people who can spam nukes.



Rinnegan Zetsu said:


> Hashirama can summon the Ten Thousand Hand Buddha, already confirmed to be bigger than Kurama, and thrash the fuck out of Naruto. So, yeah, Naruto is pretty outclassed here.


How exactly is it going to do that when Naruto's mere BM cloak is so durable it can block the Juubi's laser, an attack on another level than 9 bijuudamas, *with just 6 of his tails?*

That's only BM Naruto utilizing 50% Kurama BTW.  In this thread, HAshi is up against BSM Naruto using 100% Kurama which means a much larger and more durable chakra avatar, much more physical strength, and his max bijuudamas are much larger.  

How is Hashirama's mokubuddah going to deal with a super bijuudama from 100% BSM Naruto, or waves of BSM Chou oodama FRS that can be fired from his tails?


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 13, 2013)

Lmao.

Debate over.

Base Naruto be making COFRSz the size of Pluto.
Imagine what BSM Naruto would do.

No Super BijuuDama needed.
Budha is sliced in half CLEAN.


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## Veracity (Nov 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Lmao.
> 
> Debate over.
> 
> ...



What is your proof he was in base ?


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 13, 2013)

Likes boss said:


> What is your proof he was in base ?



LOL
You gotta love the Dome!

Are you one of those guys that are gonna ask me where is the proof that Senjutsu enhances BijuuMode too?


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## Trojan (Nov 13, 2013)

Kishi can make that such a huge feat if Naruto through it and it somehow effected Madara's susanoo.


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## Veracity (Nov 13, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> LOL
> You gotta love the Dome!
> 
> Are you one of those guys that are gonna ask me where is the proof that Senjutsu enhances BijuuMode too?



No I'm not that retarded.

But seriously, what's your proof ?

; Naruto has never created a Chou FRS in base.
; He cannot throw his FRS in base
; SM enchnaces him in everyway and should be preferable to base.

- So wtf would he be in base ?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 13, 2013)

Since he had no time to enter Sage Mode and the last panel we see him is doing clones instead of standing still and entering Sage Mode, Likes Boss?

Not only that, there is no reason why that now, the Rasenshuriken is *complete* he can't throw it in base. Why are you all basing this on Naruto's 50% incomplete version?


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 13, 2013)

Where did this idea that Naruto NEEDS Sage Mode to throw the FRS come from to begin with?

KCM/BM is in no way comparable to Sage Mode yet he throws it in those modes.
Am I missing something here?


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## Krippy (Nov 14, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Naruto did just that against Kisame when he first activated KCM. He hurt his foot though as he hadn't yet mastered the speed; he didn't have control of Shunshin,
> 
> I think that the moment he avoided the Raikage is the point in which he gained control of that flicker, so he should be able to blitz without hurting himself now. Itachi without Susano'o isn't doing shit against v2 Raikage level flickers.
> 
> Sasuke can because of his recent feat of tracking Jubito (Bijuu-Sage Naruto level perceptual ability), but Itachi has nothing on that.



Fuck it, I'm too tired to argue so I conceed

till next time 



Panther said:


> It's not the ''lack'' of decent feats but the fact that you dodn't want to post any scans cuz your talking out of your ass when you say that Naruto's base clones are shit and can't do anything without Kurama's help.
> 
> Concession Accepted
> Link removed Link removed



So hitting a restrained Kurama that did jack shit and a big rasengan that he needed a distraction to land and still did jack shit.

you sure showed me.



> nope. *you ignored my argument 2x that an unrestriced RM Naruto who hasn't his chakra divided among 13 other RM clones and isn't restriced to talking instead of fighting his enemy with killing intent would destroy base Sasuke and base Itachi*, and seeing as you didn't refute that argument of mine then you concede that an unrestricted RM Naruto would stomp base Sasuke and base Itachi.



Nope. You still haven't posted proof of 100% RM naruto's Taijutsu skills. Concession accepted.



> your trying to create the illusion that base Sasuke would keep up with an unrestriced RM Naruto while using the example of the RM Naruto vs Itachi fight without counting in the restriction that RM Naruto had in that fight.



He would. The notion that any high or top-tier would need to pull out their trump card to handle someone like RM naruto in simple taijutsu is laughable. Thus your entire argument is laughable.



> Itachi kept up fine cuz *RM Naruto had his chakra divided with 13 other RM clones, didn't use his speed, didn't use any ninjutsu and just talked with his enemy instead of fighting with killing intent*. Under those conditions many characters would perform the same.



And in an unrestricted fight many characters would also fare the same. Unless you have scans to back up any of these words.



> those people are all irrevelant since we aren't talking about them, but about base sasuke against an unrestricted RM Naruto.



No they are not. They are all comparable statwise so they are perfect for my argument. 



> Hashirama's clones are fodder when Hashirama is focusing his power on his real body  which he's gonna do against BSM Naruto. come again when Hashirama's clones are displaying kage lvl feats and running around battlefields owning Kage lvl opponents with minimal help



"minimal help" lol. Naruto's never defeated any kage level opponent in his life without outside help, while Hashirama has owned Madara for years with just his Mokuton + Senjutsu. 



> fix'd for you



Nope. Hashirama still rapes till further notice. Only nardo fanboys would believe that he could stand a chance against the guy who makes Bijuu his pet.


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## Panther (Nov 15, 2013)

Krippy said:


> So hitting a restrained Kurama that did jack shit and a big rasengan that he needed a distraction to land and still did jack shit.
> 
> you sure showed me.


 All irrelevant.

Those scans refuted your baseless claims, that's all that matters.

You stated this: 





> Nope, I said they were shit 400 chapters ago and their still shit today. The only evidence I need is *his lack of decent feats in base mode.*





> Concession accepted *as you didn't provide any evidence in the first place that Base clones can do anything worth while with out Kurama's help*.



far larger scale. is the so called ''decent feat'' and far larger scale. is the evidence that Base Naruto or his clones dodn't need Kurama's chakra to use COR. Concession accepted.




> Nope. *You still haven't posted proof of 100% RM naruto's Taijutsu skills*. Concession accepted.


 Your attacking a straw man. What's laughable here is your belief that Base Sasuke would be able to keep up with 100% RM Naruto when even SM Naruto can wipe the dirt with him.

I never claimed that RM Naruto's taijutsu is godly or that 100% RM Naruto's taijutsu is better than the RM Naruto that fought Base Itachi



> He would. *The notion that any high or top-tier would need to pull out their trump card to handle someone like RM naruto in simple taijutsu is laughable.* Thus your entire argument is laughable.


 Your attacking a straw man.

The only thing laughable here is your claim that Base Sasuke can keep up with 100% RM Naruto just because Base Itachi did with a RM Naruto that had only 7% of his chakra and didn't use any ninjutsu and chakra arms.



> "minimal help" lol. Naruto's never defeated any kage level opponent in his life without outside help, *while Hashirama has owned Madara for years with just his Mokuton + Senjutsu.*


 Gaara's platform for Dat clone was minimal help. Dat clones talk with Hachibi about the 3rd Raikage is considered minimal help when in fact he got no special info out of Hachibi

Bolded: *After a full day of fighting.... Madara laid down on the ground for the first time* with the help of an entire Senju platoon and Tobirama.

This is a waste of my time, my stance is still the same 

What I agree is that if Base Sasuke were to fight the RM Naruto that Base Itachi fought, then he would be able to keep up like base Itachi since they have around the same base stats, and also because RM Naruto didn't use his superior speed, ninjutsu and chakra arms.

What i disagree is that if Base Sasuke were to fight against an unrestricted RM Naruto that uses his speed, ninjutsu, chakra arms, then Base Sasuke wouldn't be able to keep up and he would get wrecked.


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## Blu-ray (Nov 15, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jinchuriki Obito also blitzed Tobirama, who is by all rights faster than Hashirama (the two kept to the same speed, if not Tobirama being a bit faster due to Hiraishin). Naruto managed to not only track Jinchuriki Obito's insane speed (in a more powerful form) but _corner and attack him._



Again, that was a base clone. Sage Mode drastically enhances all abilities, including reaction time and speed, and gives one the ability to sense, and the original has greater abilities than a wood clone.



> You do realize that the Bijudama also melts everything that it comes in contact with right?  And the Bijudama was going to detonate anyway, Hashirama didn't stop its explosion at all. Just like how Killer Bee didn't stop the explosion of the Bijudama he caught.



It sure took its sweet time blowing up though. In that time, Hashi could have thrown it miles away. In the scan you showed, it didn't melt anything. The barrier simply cracked because of the force that the bijuudama hit it with. In fact, Naruto holds it with his bare hands, and Hashi's wood didn't even melt.



> You do realize the bigger the Bijudama the greater the mass right? Shinsusenju nor Hashirama can survive a Bijudama explosion this fucking big. Naruto also lent most of the energy to that Bijudama with Bee's help being minimal. And all 1000 hands grabbing it will just ignite from the heat Bijudama gives off.



Whether or not they can survive it means little when he can hurl it away. Why don't you argue for another one of Naruto's techniques, because this bijuudama thing is getting old. Understand this. He catches it and does one of two things. He either throws it away, or rams it in Naruto's face. The heat will melt it? When in this manga has a bijuudama given off heat before it explodes? Naruto touched it with his bare hands and Mokujin, which is made of freaking wood didn't even get singed.



> And there is no fucking way Hashirama can stop a Juubi Bijudama on his own, its far out of his league. Two people who are weaker than him can do it, but thee freaking god of shinobi can't.



This right here made me give up. This is my last response. Hashirama blatantly said he was going to lead it away with Mokuton, yet you say it's out of his league.



> Except he only has two techniques which DO suppress Biju chakra. Just Mokuton alone doesn't. Not only that, Hashirama never stopped a Bijudama as powerful as a super Bijudama, only one that was as strong as the individual ones the other Biju shot out.



Mokuton itself suppresses bijuu chakra. He simply uses Kukuan through any of his wooden constructs. Are you saying he can't stop a super bijuudama? You'll need a better reason than he has never done it before. He has the abilities to do so, and I already explained why.



> The sword was used to turn the Bijudama into a giant shuriken. The blades alone don't add more power to the Bijudama-just cutting ability. Unless you can show the sword making the Bijudama actually stronger?



You can't be this dense. Those blade can demolish mountain yet they didn't add any power to the bijuudama? Even when rotating at high speeds? They're essentially giant buzz saws attached to bombs.



> The Super Bijudama would by four to six times as large as 100% Kurama, which would dwarf Shinsusenju. Shinsusenju was taken out by a weaker barrage of Renkozu Bijudama, yet you believe the Super Bijudama wouldn't wipe the Shinsusenju off the map? Seriously? And Hashirama has two techniques which suppress the chakra and put the Biju asleep-he never _overpowered_ a Biju like Naruto has, much less _five_. Renkozu Bijudama (the PS blades just add cutting power, nothing more) is a weaker technique than the standard Bijudama since its a rapid fire attack.



It doesn't even matter. If Hashi can get rid of the Juubi's, then Naruto's will not be an issue. I won't bother with this anymore. You're basically ignoring Hashirama's abilities while exaggerating Naruto's. Rendan bijuudama are weaker than standard, says who? PS blades don't add any power. Were they there for show? Hashirama gets blown up despite the fact that he treats bijuudama as rasengans.



> Naruto equaling the might of five fucking Biju after physically beating them down then beating all five at once is more impressive than what Hashirama did. And this is WITHOUT Sage Mode added to Biju Mode.



Who the hell cares about five bijuu? Hashirama kept those little shits as pets and restrained the the second form of freaking Juubi when it was buffed up even when most of his power was directed to the barrier. Not to mention he stomped a stronger Kurama clad with PS. Of course, this means nothing to you since apparently PS didn't add any destructive power and was there for show.



> Except we don't know what Hashirama's Sage Mode actually does differently than Naruto's or Kabuto's. Hashirama's only gives him the ability to create constructs as big as Shinsusenju so far. He's already a natural sensor, but guess what its inferior to Tobirama's.



I assume it does what sage mode normally does. The only things Hashi shouldn't have are things unique to the different sage modes, like Frog Kata or Kabuto's snake cornea. Kishi already established what sage mode does. We shouldn't need to have the same technique explained to us everytime a different person uses it. 



> Nagato sensed a country away during the War. Remember, he was the one who found Kabuto in his barrier hideout all the way in Mountain's Grave and told Itachi where he was. And Nagato himself does the sensing, not the Pain bodies since they are just extensions through his body.



Explain this to me. If he could sense as well as you say he could, how could rocks fool him when they give off chakra? How could he not know where his own freaking Pain was and how did he not know where Naruto was when they were in Bunta's mouth? Why was his shared vision such a big deal and why was obscuring his vision his weakness? How was it possible to hide from him in pipes? I assumed chakra sensing is knowing where chakra sources are without having to use your five main senses.



> Naruto's fooled sensors before (Nagato example) and even the fucking Byakugan. There is no reason why Hashirama is exempt from it other than your preference towards him.



He has never feinted the Byakugan. Neji didn't have it active when he got one shotted. They can't tell the difference between fakes and originals, but that means little when you know where they all are.



> And you need reading comprehension too. Hashirama said the volume of the chakra that _Naruto had given out_ was comparable to his own, not that his own chakra was equal to or greater than Hashirama's combined.



I must have read a wrong translation because Hashirama's exact words were "That's an impressive volume of chakra comparable to my own." He never made it clear that he was taking about the distributed chakra alone, nor does it make any sense why he would even do that.



> And again, Madara only defeated the BM Naruto clone by turning his own attack against him. Funny how you forgot that little detail.



Why does it even matter how he beat the clone? He beat it with as much ease as he beat Hashirama's, except Hashi's clone had almost no power while Naruto's had half of his.



> Oh and if Madara was so much stronger than BM Naruto, why was Naruto not only able to force him to become serious or Madara wasn't able to defeat BM Naruto?



I thought Madara getting serious was when he decided to use PS. He wasn't unable to beat Naruto. He was unable to do it before the Juubi arrived, and as I remember it, that wasn't due to any of Naruto's merits. Gai was the one who blew Madara away with Daytime Tiger.



> And those hands would melt. The Bijudama would erupt in an explosion that would literally wipe Shinsusenju off the map: it was fucking taken out by a weaker variant of the Bijudama for fuck's sake.



Based on what? The man caught Bijuudama and it didn't melt anything or explode. Naruto touched it with his bare hands.



> Jinchuriki Obito blitzed the real Tobirama though whose speed is equal to or greater than Hashirama's. The real Hashirama would have been blitzed too.



Niether of them even expected such a drastic increase in power, and just like Naruto, Tobirama adjusted to Obito and even marked him.


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## puma21 (Nov 15, 2013)

There are still a few stubborn people out there, Naruto could have taken him high diff with BM alone.  Every single technique can be countered by BM Naruto, all base mokuton techniques can be destroyed via rasengan variants or tbb. That shield that Hashirama used to bloack a tbb can be sliced in half with a rasenshuriken. 

That 1000 hand thing is overrated as well, Naruto can flat out tank all of the punches with the kyuubi avatar given it tanked the Juubi's laser tbb. It can also be destroyed in the same manner Madara did and that was by spamming, Naruto can spam tbb and regular rasenshurikens. A odama rasenshuriken would slice it in half and the explosion would cover most of the statue and the same for a charge tbb. 

Also Mokuton suppression isn't working, we've seen him get through it already, wood dragon is supposed to be the best thing to supress the kyuubi chakra and Naruto still dealt with it with a lousy method canonically. Don't even mention the Juubi tree draining him, Hashirama's mokuton is nowhere near that on top of the fact he was at the epicentre and more branches latch onto people with the most chakra.

BSM Naruto is far stronger than BM Naruto given his performance against the 10 tails jinchuuriki and the multiplier sm has.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 15, 2013)

VolatileSoul said:


> Again, that was a base clone. Sage Mode drastically enhances all abilities, including reaction time and speed, and gives one the ability to sense, and the original has greater abilities than a wood clone.


Not all Sage Modes are the same, VolatileSoul. Only the Toad version gives all those buffs. Hashirama never displayed greater speed or strength in his own Sage Mode, only the ability to create even more massive constructs with his Mokuton.




> It sure took its sweet time blowing up though. In that time, Hashi could have thrown it miles away. In the scan you showed, it didn't melt anything. The barrier simply cracked because of the force that the bijuudama hit it with. In fact, Naruto holds it with his bare hands, and Hashi's wood didn't even melt.


There is 'no sweet time'. Hashirama caught it, redirected it, and it blew up. That entire sequence took less time than you're claiming. And you're missing the melted rock spires that the Bijudama plowed through.




> Whether or not they can survive it means little when he can hurl it away. Why don't you argue for another one of Naruto's techniques, because this bijuudama thing is getting old. Understand this. He catches it and does one of two things. He either throws it away, or rams it in Naruto's face. The heat will melt it? When in this manga has a bijuudama given off heat before it explodes? Naruto touched it with his bare hands and Mokujin, which is made of freaking wood didn't even get singed.


Since you're wanking Hashirama for god sake. He has no feats which even show he can redirect a Super Bijudama, one powerful enough to equal a combined Bijudama from five Biju. All Hashirama's feats show he can deal with *standard* Bijudama, not the supersize one. And Bijudama is an object traveling at massively hypersonic speeds, it has a lot of heat around it due to the friction. The larger the Bijudama, the more heat from friction.




> This right here made me give up. This is my last response. Hashirama blatantly said he was going to lead it away with Mokuton, yet you say it's out of his league.


Working with the other Hokages and an entire army he's going to _try_ to redirect a Bijudama of the Jyubi's caliber. Even though he says he's going to do it, guess fucking what: the Jyubi is a beast of such power he has _zero_ reason to succeed on his own. Hell for all we know it was Hashirama again trying to keep the army's spirit from breaking.




> Mokuton itself suppresses bijuu chakra. He simply uses Kukuan through any of his wooden constructs. Are you saying he can't stop a super bijuudama? You'll need a better reason than he has never done it before. He has the abilities to do so, and I already explained why.


Then why has KN4 touched normal Mokuton without chakra drain? Why has BM Naruto and Kurama? Why has Gyuki? Hashirama has two techniques _specifically_ to suppress the chakra and he can't use Kukuan through any of his constructs, he himself has to lay his hand on the Biju to do it or use it through Mokujin. Not only that, he can't stop Super Bijudama. Too big, way too much mass, and far too much firepower behind it. Shinsusenju isn't strong enough. ESPECIALLY with the fucking Sage Mode boost Naruto gives his Super Bijudama which you keep neglecting.




> You can't be this dense. Those blade can demolish mountain yet they didn't add any power to the bijuudama? Even when rotating at high speeds? They're essentially giant buzz saws attached to bombs.


You do realize the power of a blade depends on what is swinging it right? The Susano'o sword alone doesn't bisect mountains, its Perfect Susano'o's _strength_ behind it. Even Hashirama noted the Bijudama didn't get stronger and Madara alluded that the combo was just to stop Hashirama from catching the normal size Bijudama's that he could command Kurama to create.




> It doesn't even matter. If Hashi can get rid of the Juubi's, then Naruto's will not be an issue. I won't bother with this anymore. You're basically ignoring Hashirama's abilities while exaggerating Naruto's. Rendan bijuudama are weaker than standard, says who? PS blades don't add any power. Were they there for show? Hashirama gets blown up despite the fact that he treats bijuudama as rasengans.


 Doesn't even matter? A Bijudama _twice the size of Shinsusenju_ with far more power than it is normally due to Sage Mode is stopped by Hashirama with ease? Hashirama _can't_ fucking get rid of the Juubi's, not on his own! He needed the help of an entire army and the other Hokages to do so, and there's no way, based on his feats he can deal with one on his own. 

And yes, the PS blades don't add power, they give Bijudama a cutting edge and even Madara himself catch it like before. You act like the sword alone has the power when its the swing that does the fucking damage. And Hashirama WOULD get blown up by a Bijudama far stronger than anything he ever dealt with before.




> Who the hell cares about five bijuu? Hashirama kept those little shits as pets and restrained the the second form of freaking Juubi when it was buffed up even when most of his power was directed to the barrier. Not to mention he stomped a stronger Kurama clad with PS. Of course, this means nothing to you since apparently PS didn't add any destructive power and was there for show.


Defeating five Biju without cheap suppression abilities>>>>>Hashirama putting them to sleep every time. And he restrained the freaking Jyubi with the help of the other Hokages, strange how you neglect that. And for a 'stomp' of PS Kurama, his own primary weapon was neutralized in the clash. Stop, wanking, Hashirama. Its really fucking annoying.




> I assume it does what sage mode normally does. The only things Hashi shouldn't have are things unique to the different sage modes, like Frog Kata or Kabuto's snake cornea. Kishi already established what sage mode does. We shouldn't need to have the same technique explained to us everytime a different person uses it.


Except the only consistent things that Sage Mode gives out is enhanced ninjutsu and chakra sensing, each have shown different abilities in what they actually enhance. Toad Sage Mode enhances ninjutsu, taijutsu, genjutsu, strength, speed, and durability. Snake Sage Mode enhances ninjutsu, genjutsu, and speed while not enhancing strength and durability. Hashirama Sage Mode enhances Ninjutsu while his speed, strength, durability, taijutsu, and genjutsu stay the same. Again, this is all from feats.




> Explain this to me. If he could sense as well as you say he could, how could rocks fool him when they give off chakra? How could he not know where his own freaking Pain was and how did he not know where Naruto was when they were in Bunta's mouth? Why was his shared vision such a big deal and why was obscuring his vision his weakness? How was it possible to hide from him in pipes? I assumed chakra sensing is knowing where chakra sources are without having to use your five main senses.


Dude, he was able to sense Kabuto all the way from fucking Frost Country to Mountain's grave. Chakra Sensing isn't active all the time nor is it a passive ability, even Madara fooled Tobirama's superior sensing to his brother. 




> He has never feinted the Byakugan. Neji didn't have it active when he got one shotted. They can't tell the difference between fakes and originals, but that means little when you know where they all are.


Fair enough, Naruto did the same thing Hashirama did to beat Madara to defeat Neji then.




> I must have read a wrong translation because Hashirama's exact words were "That's an impressive volume of chakra comparable to my own." He never made it clear that he was taking about the distributed chakra alone, nor does it make any sense why he would even do that.


Most translations agree he was talking about the distributed chakra, not 'Naruto + Minato + Yin/Yang Kurama'. He specifically talked about it AFTER the cloaks appeared around the entire army and were enhanced by Yin Kurama. Hell even your translation says 'That's an impressive volume of chakra, comparable to my own'. 




> Why does it even matter how he beat the clone? He beat it with as much ease as he beat Hashirama's, except Hashi's clone had almost no power while Naruto's had half of his.


It matters since he basically turned an _mini-bijudama_'s worth of power right back on the clone. Its not like Madara tapped it and it was destroyed, he turned its own attack against it.




> I thought Madara getting serious was when he decided to use PS. He wasn't unable to beat Naruto. He was unable to do it before the Juubi arrived, and as I remember it, that wasn't due to any of Naruto's merits. Gai was the one who blew Madara away with Daytime Tiger.


Madara: I see...I was trying to hold back since you are the Jinchuriki...but in this case, I will take this seriously. *creates Mokuryu*

From Edo Madara's own mouth, he started taking Naruto seriously. Perfect Susano'o alone wouldn't hlep.


> Based on what? The man caught Bijuudama and it didn't melt anything or explode. Naruto touched it with his bare hands.


Naruto had a dense chakra cloak _on his hands_ when he touched Bijudama, strange how you ignore that. Hell during his training his hands kept getting burned from the Bijudama despite his KCM cloak.




> Niether of them even expected such a drastic increase in power, and just like Naruto, Tobirama adjusted to Obito and even marked him.


If Tobirama was alive, there'd be no way to 'adjust'. He was flat out blitzed despite being on the same level of speed if not faster than his brother.


----------



## Oberyn Nymeros (Nov 15, 2013)

Chapter 655 killed this thread.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 15, 2013)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Chapter 655 killed this thread.



Without a doubt.

BSM COFRS cannot be stopped.


----------



## the_symbol_of_rebirth (Nov 15, 2013)

One of those hands of Hashirama's huge summon grabbed a 100% Kyuubi. People are underestimating how big it is without the Perfect Susanoo protection Naruto and the Kyuubi will be stomped in the ground.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 15, 2013)

the_symbol_of_rebirth said:


> One of those hands of Hashirama's huge summon grabbed a 100% Kyuubi. People are underestimating how big it is without the Perfect Susanoo protection Naruto and the Kyuubi will be stomped in the ground.


Notice how Madara, instead of retaliating from being grabbed, just let the main Shinsusenju hand grab Kurama and retreated. And Perfect Susano'o doesn't make Kurama bigger too.

And no, nothing that Shinsusenju does can remotely hurt Biju Mode, much less Sage Biju Mode Naruto. Naruto can dispel the avatar, run up Shinsusenju's arm while creating three clones and then they can toss Jyubi damaging Rasenshurikens or create an Odama Rasenshuriken the size of Shinsusenju's head to obliterate it, leaving Hashirama completely open for a partially transformed Bijudama at point blank.


----------



## Raiken (Nov 16, 2013)

Oberyn Nymeros said:


> Chapter 655 killed this thread.


In what way and why?
Because Naruto is seemingly using an Oodama FRS, possibly a Cho-Oodama FRS in Base?


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 16, 2013)

Cryorex said:


> In what way and why?
> Because Naruto is seemingly using an Oodama FRS, possibly a Cho-Oodama FRS in Base?



Shit is the size God Tree's entire bud at the end of the chapter.

What ends the thread is what happens when you *SCALE THAT TO WHAT BIJUUSAGEMODE* would allow him to do with that Jutsu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 16, 2013)

Budha Statue annihilates.
SM alone can't make up for lack of PS here.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Budha Statue annihilates.
> SM alone can't make up for lack of PS here.


Shinsusenju is too slow and cumbersome to hit a BSM Naruto moving at full speed. Shinsusenju also lacks the firepower to even damage BM Naruto, much less the enhanced BSM Naruto. Naruto can blow it away with a single Super Bijudama too or Cho Odama Rasenshuriken. 

Here's the thing, Perfect Susano'o didn't add anything to Kurama's power during the Shinsusenju vs Kurama clash. it was explicitly stated that Perfect Susano'o was used to prevent Hashirama from suppressing Kurama.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

Bloodlusted?

Hashirama stomps. He wipes them both off the map with Shinsuusenju, without breaking a sweat.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju is too slow and cumbersome to hit a BSM Naruto moving at full speed.



With that kind of size and enough speed to punch Bijuudama out of the air, it's plenty fast enough.



> Shinsusenju also lacks the firepower to even damage BM Naruto, much less the enhanced BSM Naruto.



Shinsuusenju breached Perfect Susano'o; Naruto's Bijuu Mode gets vaped. Not sure how well Sage enhancements would protect Naruto since there are no feats to go by.



> Naruto can blow it away with a single Super Bijudama too



It took multiple Bijuudama combined with Perfect Susano'o blades just to destroy its arms.



> or Cho Odama Rasenshuriken.



Does that thing even have feats? Is it even stronger than a regular Bijuudama?



> Here's the thing, Perfect Susano'o didn't add anything to Kurama's power during the Shinsusenju vs Kurama clash.



Are you sure that was stated in the manga? Are you sure you didn't just *make it up?*

It sure seemed like those Perfect Susano'o blades augmented those Bijuudama.



> it was explicitly stated that Perfect Susano'o was used to prevent Hashirama from suppressing Kurama.



Which does not, in any shape or form, mean that's all it did.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Shinsuusenju breached Perfect Susano'o; Naruto's Bijuu Mode gets vaped. Not sure how well Sage enhancements would protect Naruto since there are no feats to go by.


You say that you're not sure how well Sage enhancements would protect Naruto due to a lack of feats, but by what feats do you attribute breaching PS = vaporizing Naruto's bijuumode?

you know what, ill just answer all of them since they're not that hard.



Nikushimi said:


> With that kind of size and enough speed to punch Bijuudama out of the air, it's plenty fast enough.


they have the speed to clash with bijuudamas in midair, BM Naruto blitzed bijuudamas fired at point blank despite being 100+ meters away and starting his movement after the damas were fired, this is 100% BSM Naruto hashirama isn't hitting him if he uses shunshin.



Nikushimi said:


> It took multiple Bijuudama combined with Perfect Susano'o blades just to destroy its arms.


And despite that, the total power of those damas didn't even amount to the combined bijuudama that Naruto and Bee made.  SM more than doubles the power of naruto's jutsu, 100% Kurama's chakra most likely ups his max sized bijuudama as well.




Nikushimi said:


> Does that thing even have feats? Is it even stronger than a regular Bijuudama?


By scaling it's much more powerful than a bijuudama seeing as a BM FRS cuts through the juubi's tails while a bijuudama and tons of superpowered slicer attacks can't and this one is powered by BSM chakra.

By feats, it's much more powerful as well as even the 50% FRS used against kakuzu created a perfectly spherical crater in the ground, showing that the damage density of the wind sphere is much greater than that of a bijuudamas, and judging by the size of the FRS its wind sphere would be about as large as a normal bijuudama's blast.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Bloodlusted?
> 
> Hashirama stomps. He wipes them both off the map with Shinsuusenju, without breaking a sweat.


And Naruto can't completely destroy it or turn back on his avatar after it is destroyed because??


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Shinsusenju is too slow and cumbersome to hit a BSM Naruto moving at full speed.


It has 1000 hands. Numbers will compansate for lack of speed if he is has any.




> Shinsusenju also lacks the firepower to even damage BM Naruto, much less the enhanced BSM Naruto.


Since when BM or BSM Naruto have more durability than PS ? 




> Naruto can blow it away with a single Super Bijudama too or Cho Odama Rasenshuriken.


Statue tanked like 100s of bijuudama shurikens, so no.



> Here's the thing, Perfect Susano'o didn't add anything to Kurama's power during the Shinsusenju vs Kurama clash. it was explicitly stated that Perfect Susano'o was used to prevent Hashirama from suppressing Kurama.


It also prevented Kurama from getting destroyed given all of Budha's attacks were soaked by PS till it was no more.


----------



## Jak N Blak (Nov 17, 2013)

Since when is Perfect Susanoo more durable than Kurama is the motherfucking question.

As if Madara's chakra is anything remotely comparable to the Lord.

Point remains: BUDHA IS SLICED IN HALF.

The thread is over. See you in two weeks. Lmao.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

Jak N Blak said:


> Since when is Perfect Susanoo more durable than Kurama is the motherfucking question.
> 
> As if Madara's chakra is anything remotely comparable to the Lord.
> 
> ...



Since Madara coated Kyuubi with perfect Susano'o for protection.

You wouldn't wear an armor if you were more durable than the armor.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since Madara coated Kyuubi with perfect Susano'o for protection.
> *
> You wouldn't wear an armor if you were more durable than the armor.*



Um, the bolded makes zero sense.   Even if the armor is less durable than kurama, coating kurama with it will give it an added layer of protection and increase it's defenses.  So say Susanoo armor was just as durable as kurama, that would mean you'd have to use twice the power to defeat Kyuusanoo than what it would take to defeat Kurama which is obviously a very good reason to wear the armor.

And it gets even worse because Susanoo doesn't just increase kurama's durability, it creates a barrier around kurama that prevents him from being palm-suppressed and gives him 2 extra arms, 2 mountain cutting swords and the ability to make his normal bijuudamas uncatchable.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Um, the bolded makes zero sense.



0 sense ? 

Why would you wear armor in the first place ? 

This too pathetic, even for a strawman argument


----------



## Bansai (Nov 17, 2013)

I'm pretty sure Hashirama still wins. At some point Nauro will certainly surpass Hashirama, but it's way too soon for that, even if he has all of Kurama's chakra inside him.


----------



## Kai (Nov 17, 2013)

Also doesn't make much sense for Naruto to have already surpassed Hashirama while Sasuke "one day" surpasses Madara.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> Also doesn't make much sense for Naruto to have already surpassed Hashirama while Sasuke "one day" surpasses Madara.



Then why neither oro nor Tobirama said Naruto will "one day" surpass Hashi?
Unless he's already stronger than him of course. 

Or does it make sense that Sasuke will one day surpass Madara, but Naruto won't surpass
Hashi? 

but regardless of that, Hashi is not Naruto's benchmark to begin with in term of power, as
Kishi always compare them in term of personality, and that's it.


----------



## Kai (Nov 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> Then why neither oro nor Tobirama said Naruto will "one day" surpass Hashi?
> Unless he's already stronger than him of course.


I'd take the less fanon stance.

Why didn't Tobirama say Naruto has already surpassed Hashi?
Unless he still has room to develop and improve


----------



## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

Kai said:


> I'd take the less fanon stance.
> 
> Why didn't Tobirama say Naruto has already surpassed Hashi?
> Unless he still has room to develop and improve



Because there is no need to state the obvious. 
If Kishi wanted us to see Naruto still inferior to Hashi he would have stated that. 

Also, current madara is stronger than Hashi, it's foolish to make a statement for Sasuke
to surpass Madara who is stronger than hashi, and give the weaker one for Naruto!

In that way, it will make Naruto look weaker.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 0 sense ?
> 
> Why would you wear armor in the first place ?
> 
> This too pathetic, even for a strawman argument



Lets see, I assert it makes zero sense, and then I go on to EXPLAIN why it makes zero sense and why despite being more durable than your armor it would makes sense to wear armor.

No strawman is being attacked and by the very fact that you didn't even attempt to address my argument means that you can't come up with a logically coherent counterargument and thus it's a concession on your part.



Kai said:


> Also doesn't make much sense for Naruto to have already surpassed Hashirama while Sasuke "one day" surpasses Madara.



Except the naruto in this thread isn't current Naruto, it's a hypothetical naruto who has the 100% Kurama inside of him rather than 50%.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

Hashi's Buddha is smaller than the Juubi in its second form. Now, Naruto's Kurama with the 8tails were
able to use a TBB who its explosion is bigger than the Tree itself! 
As shown here
sharingan.

the other half of Kurama is stronger than the 8tails, therefore, there TBB should be even stronger
how is Hashi going to deal with that?


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> Hashi's Buddha is smaller than the Juubi in its second form. Now, Naruto's Kurama with the 8tails were
> able to use a TBB who its explosion is bigger than the Tree itself!
> As shown here
> sharingan.
> ...



actually, that crater you refer to was created by tenpen chi.  The combined TBB created a much smaller crater, you can sort of see it underneath the middle of the god tree.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> You say that you're not sure how well Sage enhancements would protect Naruto due to a lack of feats, but by what feats do you attribute breaching PS = vaporizing Naruto's bijuumode?



Perfect Susano'o is more durable than Bijuu Mode (or the Kyuubi).



> they have the speed to clash with bijuudamas in midair, BM Naruto blitzed bijuudamas fired at point blank despite being 100+ meters away and starting his movement after the damas were fired, this is 100% BSM Naruto hashirama isn't hitting him if he uses shunshin.



Hashirama is very easily hitting him, just like the much-slower Bijuu were doing in far lesser numbers than what the 1st can produce with his much larger Mokuton.



> And despite that, the total power of those damas didn't even amount to the combined bijuudama that Naruto and Bee made.  SM more than doubles the power of naruto's jutsu, 100% Kurama's chakra most likely ups his max sized bijuudama as well.



That's all pretty meaningless when you consider that Hashirama countered quite literally _dozens_ of Bijuudama combined with Perfect Susano'o blades and still managed to breach Perfect Susano'o, a construct that can withstand the Kyuubi's ordinary Bijuudama unscathed in its incomplete state.



> By scaling it's much more powerful than a bijuudama seeing as a BM FRS cuts through the juubi's tails while a bijuudama and tons of superpowered slicer attacks can't and this one is powered by BSM chakra.



Bijuudama isn't a cutting attack.



> By feats, it's much more powerful as well as even the 50% FRS used against kakuzu created a perfectly spherical crater in the ground, showing that the damage density of the wind sphere is much greater than that of a bijuudamas, and judging by the size of the FRS its wind sphere would be about as large as a normal bijuudama's blast.



So can I tell SSM12 that Kakuzu can survive a Bijuudama because he survived FRS? 

I'll concede this point if you say yes. :ignoramus



Psp123789 said:


> And Naruto can't completely destroy it or turn back on his avatar after it is destroyed because??



He'll be charred organic mess smeared across kilometers of powderized sediment.



Jak N Blak said:


> Since when is Perfect Susanoo more durable than Kurama is the motherfucking question.



Since it took multiple attacks from something that could casually swat down Bijuudama+PS swords and _still_ protected Madara (and the Kyuubi).



> As if Madara's chakra is anything remotely comparable to the Lord.



The Kyuubi itself stated that Madara's chakra was more sinister than its own.



> Point remains: BUDHA IS SLICED IN HALF.



Half of its arms would be more than enough to completely disassemble the Kyuubi and its host on a molecular level.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> He'll be charred organic mess smeared across kilometers of powderized sediment.


Since when was hashirama's buddha stronger than the juubi's laser? Naruto can just hide behind his tails while his clones spam COFRS and destroy the hands. Or he can just simply nuke the entire thing before it even does anything.


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Perfect Susano'o is more durable than Bijuu Mode (or the Kyuubi).


I know that's the conclusion you are trying to push, but I want to see the reasoning behind that conclusion.




Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama is very easily hitting him, just like the much-slower Bijuu were doing in far lesser numbers than what the first can produce with his much larger Mokuton.


You mean V2 bijuus vs KCM Naruto?  KCM Naruto wasn't even using super speed let alone flash shunshin and he was running on almost empty as far as chakra goes.  he didn't even try to dodge their attacks anyways.




Nikushimi said:


> That's all pretty meaningless when you consider that Hashirama countered quite literally _dozens_ of Bijuudama combined with Perfect Susano'o blades and still managed to breach Perfect Susano'o, a construct that can withstand the Kyuubi's ordinary Bijuudama unscathed in its incomplete state.


PS didn't withstand the kyuubi's bijuudama unscathed in its incomplete state, it was in the process of leveling up, blocked the dama with its swords and wasn't hit directly.  

And how does what you've typed in anyway counter my point?  If the combined bijuudama is more powerful than the collective power of all the sword damas fired at the buddah, then it at least does as much damage to the buddah.




Nikushimi said:


> Bijuudama isn't a cutting attack.


Why does that matter? 




Nikushimi said:


> So can I tell SSM12 that Kakuzu can survive a Bijuudama because he survived FRS?
> 
> I'll concede this point if you say yes. :ignoramus


 The wind sphere is more DAMAGE DENSE than a bijuudama's explosion, which only means that if the explosion of a BD is as big as the wind sphere, the wind sphere is more powerful.  So technically yes,  if kakuzu was hit with a bijuudama so weak that it's blast radius was under 20 meters then sure he could survive it.  However that has nothing to do with him surviving ones that vaporize mountains.


----------



## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> actually, that crater you refer to was created by tenpen chi.  The combined TBB created a much smaller crater, you can sort of see it underneath the middle of the god tree.



It seems to me the same here
sharingan.

what's under the Tree are its branches I believe. @.@
sharingan.

And even if that was the case, Hashi's Buddha is still smaller than that.


----------



## Nikushimi (Nov 17, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Since when was hashirama's buddha stronger than the juubi's laser?



Since it overpowered the 100% Kyuubi's Bijuudama spam combined with Madara's Perfect Susano'o's sword spam.



> Naruto can just hide behind his tails while his clones spam COFRS and destroy the hands.



Just like the Bijuudama+PS swords did. 



> Or he can just simply nuke the entire thing before it even does anything.



It's not like Madara didn't try that. 



ueharakk said:


> I know that's the conclusion you are trying to push, but I want to see the reasoning behind that conclusion.



Would you wear armor that is less durable than yourself? 



> You mean V2 bijuus vs KCM Naruto?  KCM Naruto wasn't even using super speed let alone flash shunshin and he was running on almost empty as far as chakra goes.  he didn't even try to dodge their attacks anyways.



I mean the Bijuu Battle Royale. Where Bowel Movement Nardo was getting gang-banged by the other Bijuu and Hachibi B needed to step in.



> PS didn't withstand the kyuubi's bijuudama unscathed in its incomplete state, it was in the process of leveling up, blocked the dama with its swords and wasn't hit directly.



The swords are a part of PS, last I checked.

Unless Kishi decides to introduce another legendary spiritual weapon we have never heard of. 



> And how does what you've typed in anyway counter my point?  If the combined bijuudama is more powerful than the collective power of all the sword damas fired at the buddah, then it at least does as much damage to the buddah.



What makes the combined Bijuudama more powerful than the collective power of Madara's Rape Spam (shorter name; I'm gonna stick with that)?



> Why does that matter?



That's why it didn't cut the Juubi, silly. 



> The wind sphere is more DAMAGE DENSE than a bijuudama's explosion, which only means that if the explosion of a BD is as big as the wind sphere, the wind sphere is more powerful.  So technically yes,  if kakuzu was hit with a bijuudama so weak that it's blast radius was under 20 meters then sure he could survive it.  However that has nothing to do with him surviving ones that vaporize mountains.



But Kakuzu's body remains the same size regardless of the attack.

So if FRS has greater "damage density," then Kakuzu should be able to survive Bijuudama (or at least the fraction of it his body is actually exposed to).


----------



## αce (Nov 17, 2013)

First form Juubi laser is insanely overrated and the only argument for its power usually revolves around referring back to the fact that it's the Juubi. You can see just how much damage that laser did. It's nothing that Hashirama couldn't also accomplish with his Buddha and nothing that EMS Madara couldn't have accomplished with multiple bijuu dama's.


----------



## αce (Nov 17, 2013)

I mean, you can see the other bijuu dama's right above it. Now line up the amount of Bijuu dama's that the _Kyuubi_ fired with _enhancements_ via Susano-o swords and you'd get a similar destructive output. Hashirama walked through it and still had enough to overpower the Kyuubi.


----------



## Psp123789 (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Since it overpowered the 100% Kyuubi's Bijuudama spam combined with Madara's Perfect Susano'o's sword spam.


Overpowered? Last time I checked the hands that clashed with Madara's attack were destroyed by I counted 10 TBB's 
Also in order to completely destroy the avatar the hands that are able to hit Naruto will have to be significantly more powerful than the juubi's laser  


> Just like the Bijuudama+PS swords did.


Hey they protected kurama from damage. There's also the fact that COFRS is much larger than those TBB's and can explode whenever Naruto wants them to. Also the kyuubi can't make clones.


> It's not like Madara didn't try that.


Huh? Looks to me like he just stared at it. Also comparing those TBB's to this?


----------



## Trojan (Nov 17, 2013)

αce said:


> First form Juubi laser is insanely overrated and the only argument for its power usually revolves around referring back to the fact that it's the Juubi. You can see just how much damage that laser did. It's nothing that Hashirama couldn't also accomplish with his Buddha and nothing that EMS Madara couldn't have accomplished with multiple bijuu dama's.



The laser defeated 9 TBBs all at the same time. Hashi's Buddha did more or less the same
and yet people overrate to no end. The same with his other jutsus that Onoki defeated them with
one jinton, or Naruto who defeated it with rasengans or even by his speed...etc


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Nov 17, 2013)

αce said:


> First form Juubi laser is insanely overrated and the only argument for its power usually revolves around referring back to the fact that it's the Juubi. You can see just how much damage that laser did. It's nothing that Hashirama couldn't also accomplish with his Buddha and nothing that EMS Madara couldn't have accomplished with multiple bijuu dama's.


Jyubi's Bijudama plowed through nine/ten Renkozu Bijudama without losing any momentum or power. In the same clash that the Shinsusenju did, Shinsusenju was neutralized, lost its primary armament and began slowing down temendously. Its obvious which is superior.


αce said:


> I mean, you can see the other bijuu dama's right above it. Now line up the amount of Bijuu dama's that the _Kyuubi_ fired with _enhancements_ via Susano-o swords and you'd get a similar destructive output. Hashirama walked through it and still had enough to overpower the Kyuubi.


The swords only give the Bijudama's cutting power, nothing more, nothing less. They don't increase its firepower, they don't make it stronger. They're a fucking SWORD for christ sake, which means that unless swung they aren't powerful.

And Hashirama never 'walked through' it. Shinsusenju's primary armament was completely obliterated and it slowed down.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Lets see, I assert it makes zero sense, and then I go on to EXPLAIN why it makes zero sense and why despite being more durable than your armor it would makes sense to wear armor.


The thing is, you didn't explain anything. You just tried to strawman but it failed.

Ok. You see a guy wearing a bullet proof vest. What would be the logical approach ?

A ) To assume that the vest is more durable than the person wearing it.
B ) To assume that the vest is less durable than the person wearing it.

Now you are telling me that the likehood of an armor being more durable than its owner is less likely than it being less durable ? 

And what I said makes 0 sense ? 







> No strawman is being attacked and by the very fact that you didn't even attempt to address my argument means that you can't come up with a logically coherent counterargument and thus it's a concession on your part.


I did now. Happy ?


----------



## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Would you wear armor that is less durable than yourself?




Um.... to stack the durability of the armor on your own durability.  Armor that isn't as durable as your own body is still much better than no armor at all.  And that's barring the fact that the armor makes kurama unsuppressable, gives him two extra arms, mountain slicer swords, protects madara, as well as makes normal bijuudamas uncatchable.




Nikushimi said:


> I mean the Bijuu Battle Royale. Where Bowel Movement Nardo was getting gang-banged by the other Bijuu and Hachibi B needed to step in.


I don't think he was referring to Naruto in full bijuumode.




Nikushimi said:


> The swords are a part of PS, last I checked.
> 
> Unless Kishi decides to introduce another legendary spiritual weapon we have never heard of.


sure, but the swords weren't blocking hashirama's punches they were being used to make the bijuudamas uncatchable, so you'd have to factor how a bijuudama would fair if it hit PS directly.  And what about the other points of the argument?




Nikushimi said:


> What makes the combined Bijuudama more powerful than the collective power of Madara's Rape Spam (shorter name; I'm gonna stick with that)?


The fact that its yielded a larger explosion?  Fact that the explosion shown on panel was the more deadly kind.  The fact that the combined was larger than all 11 bijuudamas combined.




Nikushimi said:


> That's why it didn't cut the Juubi, silly.


But that's not the point.




Nikushimi said:


> But Kakuzu's body remains the same size regardless of the attack.
> 
> So if FRS has greater "damage density," then Kakuzu should be able to survive Bijuudama (or at least the fraction of it his body is actually exposed to).


That would only be true if a bijuudama or FRS's damage density was constant throughout its AoE regardless of the size of the explosion which obviously isn't true.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, you didn't explain anything. You just tried to strawman but it failed.


How am I attacking a strawman?  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Ok. You see a guy wearing a bullet proof vest. What would be the logical approach ?
> 
> A ) To assume that the vest is more durable than the person wearing it.
> B ) To assume that the vest is less durable than the person wearing it.
> ...


Now you are attacking a strawman.  You didn't assert anything about 'likelyhoood of armor being more durable than the person wearing it' you said 'why would you wear armor that's less durable than yourself', the logical equivalent of "there's no reason to wear armor that's less durable than yourself". 

And to match your bulletproof vest example, i'll give you an example of a skateboarder wearing long jeans.  Are the long jeans more durable than himself?  No, but does it increase his defenses?  Obviously since if he eats it the pants are going to get shredded a lot more than the legs under the pants.  You could swap the pants with a tissue that's just as durable as his own skin and it still protects him from the fall and skid.

Armor is not by definition something that is more durable than the wearer, it's something that 



αce said:


> First form Juubi laser is insanely overrated and the only argument for its power usually revolves around referring back to the fact that it's the Juubi. You can see just how much damage that laser did. It's nothing that Hashirama couldn't also accomplish with his Buddha and nothing that EMS Madara couldn't have accomplished with multiple bijuu dama's.


that trench leading to the combined bijuudama isn't the damage the laser did, that was *created by the combined bijuudama before it exploded.*  Kishi simply left out the destruction caused by the laser.



αce said:


> I mean, you can see the other bijuu dama's right above it. Now line up the amount of Bijuu dama's that the _Kyuubi_ fired with _enhancements_ via Susano-o swords and you'd get a similar destructive output. Hashirama walked through it and still had enough to overpower the Kyuubi.



dude, giving Hashirama's shinsuusenjuu similar destructive output to the juubi's laser is against your case.  The laser only destroyed 6 of BM Naruto's 9 tails, in this thread, Naruto not only has the superior BSM form, but he's also powered by the full kurama, thus the sheer size of his avatar is multiple times the size of his BM, and thus he doesn't need anywhere near 6 to stop the laser it's be more like 1 or 2.


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Elia said:


> It seems to me the same here
> *created by the combined bijuudama before it exploded.*
> 
> what's under the Tree are its branches I believe. @.@
> ...



*this crater is the combined bijuudama created.*  note the barrier takes up a good portion of that crater.

*Now look at how big that barrier compares to the tree.*

*the crater the tree is in even reaches the ocean* something that we know didn't happen when the combined bijuudama went off.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 17, 2013)

It is easy to give this to Hashirama considering the suppression factor. Though Naruto never lost his V2 when his BM got suppressed; Naruto was even able to strike in this state. Though Hashirama could get Naruto up close and stop him completely.

Though with enhanced perception thanks to Sage Mode (the first link suggests KM can do this do a certain degree), it is unlikely that Hashirama will be able to get that close to Naruto. 
We've seen BM's capabilities... now with SM, Naruto has those capabilities rapidly enhanced. So Naruto's obviously not going to get stomped by Hashirama. 

The logical inference is that KM2>KM1 in all aspects, so for instance, you can argue that it can generate bigger mini FRSs... imagine that enhanced by SM. That's a small example. In fact, we saw what sort of FRS Naruto is capable of making without KM2 via KCM and without. That obviously tells us how lethal a KM2+BM combo will be. 
Also lets not forget that FRS can actually expand if Naruto wills it. Obviously the effect will be so much greater with BSM.

Yes, it is easy to say Hashirama without actually considering BM Naruto's abilities... but honestly thinking about it... Hashirama actually had a very decent chance of losing here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

> Now you are attacking a strawman.  You didn't assert anything about 'likelyhoood of armor being more durable than the person wearing it' you said 'why would you wear armor that's less durable than yourself',* the logical equivalent of "there's no reason to wear armor that's less durable than yourself"*.


That is also true.
Why would you wear something that is less durable than yourself ? 

Can there be exceptions to this ? Yes, there can be. But generally, an armor you are wearing(and by armor I am talking about shit that people wear to war, that are build to withstand weapons) will be more durable than you.

So its more like what you said makes 0 sense, not mine.




> And to match your bulletproof vest example, i'll give you an example of a skateboarder wearing long jeans.  Are the long jeans more durable than himself?  No, but does it increase his defenses?  Obviously since if he eats it the pants are going to get shredded a lot more than the legs under the pants.  You could swap the pants with a tissue that's just as durable as his own skin and it still protects him from the fall and skid.


I'd say jeans are probably more durable than your skin.
And jeans are not armor, they are clothing. 
Big fucking difference.

A better example would be kneepads and they aren't exactly armor either.



> Armor is not by definition something that is more durable than the wearer, it's something that


And guess what, something that can withstand a blow from a weapon will by default be more durable than you because our bodies aren't exactly build to recieve punishment. We don't have thick skins or shells like some animals.
For example if you are wearing an armor that prevents a sword from piercing you, then it is more durable than your own body because your body can't stop a sword.


#stopthebullshit


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## ueharakk (Nov 17, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That is also true.
> Why would you wear something that is less durable than yourself ?
> 
> Can there be exceptions to this ? Yes, there can be. But generally, an armor you are wearing(and by armor I am talking about shit that people wear to war, that are build to withstand weapons) will be more durable than you.
> ...


then that just presupposes that susanoo is to kurama what a bulletproof vest is to a human.  And that's not something you can presuppose, you have to argue that by some kind of evidence.  If Naruto gave Sandaime raikage his cloak, does that mean his chakra cloak is more durable than sandaime raikage?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I'd say jeans are probably more durable than your skin.
> And jeans are not armor, they are clothing.
> Big fucking difference.
> 
> A better example would be kneepads and they aren't exactly armor either.


Armor is anything you wear to protect yourself, so yes jeans are considered armor and thus you have reason to wear it to protect yourself.  And i'm guessing since you ignored the example of a material as durable as your skin, then you concede that point that wearing something that no more durable than your skin will protect you and thus you have all the reason to do so.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And guess what, something that can withstand a blow from a weapon will by default be more durable than you because our bodies aren't exactly build to recieve punishment. We don't have thick skins or shells like some animals.
> For example if you are wearing an armor that prevents a sword from piercing you, then it is more durable than your own body because your body can't stop a sword.


The definition never ever said anything about 'withstanding' only 'protecting' or 'as a defense against' something.  

So no, armor does not have to be more durable than the wearer.  Is vegeta's armor more durable than vegeta?  How about frieza?  No, armor is not by definition more durable than the wearer, in order to assert that you have to bring up the durability feats of that armor.

Finally since none of what you've typed disproves the point that regardless whether susanoo is more or less durable than kurama, it will increase his defenses then you concede that point that 'why would you wear armor that's weaker than yourself' as you have the answer: because it increases your defenses.


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## Jak N Blak (Nov 17, 2013)

Why are arguments still being made?

Do I need to bold this shit?

*BASE NARUTO MADE AN FUUTON:RASENSHUURIKEN THE SIZE OF GOD TREE'S FLOWER BUD*.

Hell...it probably was BIGGER than the bud.

It got so big by time the last panel that it could be seen like a star in the sky from miles upon MILES away.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 17, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> then that just presupposes that susanoo is to kurama what a bulletproof vest is to a human.  And that's not something you can presuppose, you have to argue that by some kind of evidence.  If Naruto gave Sandaime raikage his cloak, does that mean his chakra cloak is more durable than sandaime raikage?


Naruto's chakra cloak is not exactly armor.
And obviously the context would be important. 
If Naruto's cloak popped up @ the very second raikage was about to recieve an attack, then perhaps you could make an argument that NAruto's cloak is more durable than Sandaime Raikage.



> Armor is anything you wear to protect yourself, so yes jeans are considered armor and thus you have reason to wear it to protect yourself.


No. You wear jeans because they are fashionable.



> And i'm guessing since you ignored the example of a material as durable as your skin, then you concede that point that wearing something that no more durable than your skin will protect you and thus you have all the reason to do so.


I didn't ignore it, its just that jeans aren't armor.The main reason why we wear clothes is not because we need protection.

Trying to nitpick is not helping either you or me here.

By armor we are talking about, armor here. Not about "anything that can be used as armor".




> The definition never ever said anything about 'withstanding' only 'protecting' or 'as a defense against' something.


What definition ? 



> So no, armor does not have to be more durable than the wearer.


I am not sure if there is a universal rule about this, but yeah armor tend to be more durable than its wearer.

Way back in the day, when people started building weapons which allowed them to bypass the durability your flesh grants you, they realized they needed armor to protect themselves from those weapons they built.

So a knights armor is obviously more durable than the knight himself because it was designed and built to protect him from the very weapon that is capable of killing him.




> Is vegeta's armor more durable than vegeta?  How about frieza?


I don't know those characters well enough to comment on this.



> No, armor is not by definition more durable than the wearer, in order to assert that you have to bring up the durability feats of that armor.


I am just taking the logical approach here.
If the armor you are wearing is less durable than youself, it is pointless to wear it, it'd just slow you down.



> Finally since none of what you've typed disproves the point that regardless whether susanoo is more or less durable than kurama, it will increase his defenses then you concede that point that 'why would you wear armor that's weaker than yourself' as you have the answer: because it increases your defenses.



Sure, if you want to take an illogical approach and contradict everything we know about armors, you could make that assumption and perhaps you'd be right in some very extreme cases.


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto's chakra cloak is not exactly armor.
> And obviously the context would be important.
> If Naruto's cloak popped up @ the very second raikage was about to recieve an attack, then perhaps you could make an argument that NAruto's cloak is more durable than Sandaime Raikage.


Why would naruto's chakra cloak not be considered armor?  What exactly is your definition of what 'armor' is?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. You wear jeans because they are fashionable.


that's just one of the reasons you wear them, if they offer protection then by definition they are armor.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't ignore it, its just that jeans aren't armor.The main reason why we wear clothes is not because we need protection.
> 
> Trying to nitpick is not helping either you or me here.
> 
> By armor we are talking about, armor here. Not about "anything that can be used as armor".


You keep on saying that 'jeans aren't armor' yet by what definition of the word 'armor' are you using that would rule out jeans? 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> What definition ?


The definition straight from dictionary.com that I linked you in the previous post.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not sure if there is a universal rule about this, but yeah armor tend to be more durable than its wearer.


Then if armor is not necessarily more durable than the wearer, then you can't say that because you call something 'armor' that it's more durable than the wearer.  You have to actually go and see how durable they are based on how they hold out against attacks.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Way back in the day, when people started building weapons which allowed them to bypass the durability your flesh grants you, they realized they needed armor to protect themselves from those weapons they built.
> 
> So a knights armor is obviously more durable than the knight himself because it was designed and built to protect him from the very weapon that is capable of killing him.


All that you just typed is that wearing armor that's much more durable than yourself would offer better protection than armor that isn't as durable or is only slightly more durable and that's something that I agree with.  However that obviously does not in anyway support your argument unless you show that by necessity armor is more durable than the wearer.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know those characters well enough to comment on this.


Lets walk through this step by step.

When vegeta was on planet namek, did he use armor?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am just taking the logical approach here.
> If the armor you are wearing is less durable than youself, it is pointless to wear it, it'd just slow you down.


Um, that's basically a concession on your part as you flat out ignore that even if you wear armor that's less durable than yourself it still puts a layer or defense that an attack has to go through in order to hurt you and that gives you which increases your defenses, thus it's obviously a reason to wear the armor.  Whether or not an armor is deemed pointless would be the pros and cons subjectively weight against each other in the certain scenario.  If the benefit of X more defense is greater than Y decreased mobility then no it wouldn't be pointless and vice versa.  

Oh and was it ever stated or implied that Susanoo slowed 100% Kurama down?  Even if i gave you your argument with zero need for any reasoning that the speed decrease made the defense decrease 'pointless' the suppression prevention, the additional arms, the mountain range slicing blades and ability to make bijuudamas uncatcheable are still there and thus Madara has more than enough reason to coat kurama with PS.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure, if you want to take an illogical approach and contradict everything we know about armors, you could make that assumption and perhaps you'd be right in some very extreme cases.


Um nothing I've stated even remotely contradicts what we know about armors as what we know about armor is that by definition all it is is something that:  thus it has absolutely nothing to do with how durable that armor is compared to the wearer nor does it have anything to do with how effective it is at defending against the weapon.

What you are doing is straight up reasoning in a circle.  You make up your own definition of what armor is, call Susanoo 'armor' and then say 'because susanoo is called 'armor' then it gets the made up definition of what defines a construct as 'armor' and thus susanoo is more durable than kurama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 18, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> Why would naruto's chakra cloak not be considered armor?  What exactly is your definition of what 'armor' is?


I didn't say it isn't considered as armor, I said it isn't exactly armor.
It obviously can be considered as armor because it grants significant protection to the user.

And as for the raikage example you chose to ignore, like I said, context would be important.

If Raikage is given chakra cloak simply because it is basically given to every single shinobi in the entire battlefield, then no I wouldn't exactly say that the cloak is more durable than Raikage.

But if Raikage gets saved by the cloak, just like how Madara manifested Susano'o around Kyuubi the moment before he was hit by the Bijuudama, then yeah, I'd argue that the cloak itself is more durable than Raikage.





> that's just one of the reasons you wear them, if they offer protection then by definition they are armor.




You are hiding behind a dictionary definition which says "any covering worn as defense against weapons."
Ok lets see how much that definition will protect you. Answer this :

What weapon does a jean protect you from ? 




> You keep on saying that 'jeans aren't armor' yet by what definition of the word 'armor' are you using that would rule out jeans?


"Covering worn as protection against weapons ?"

Human flesh isn't strong enough to protect you against weapons.
Yet armors do. So by default, armors you wear are more durable than you are.

Common sense and logic. You tend to ignore these 2.



> The definition straight from dictionary.com that I linked you in the previous post.


I don't think that definition support you in this case.

It says any covering worn as a protection against weapons.

So everyday clothing doesn't fit the criteria.




> Then if armor is not necessarily more durable than the wearer, then you can't say that because you call something 'armor' that it's more durable than the wearer.  You have to actually go and see how durable they are based on how they hold out against attacks.


What ?

It is common sense.
If a sword can pierce your gut and if you are wearing an armor to prevent that, then by default the armor is more durable than your flesh.




> All that you just typed is that wearing armor that's much more durable than yourself would offer better protection than armor that isn't as durable or is only slightly more durable and that's something that I agree with.  However that obviously does not in anyway support your argument unless you show that by necessity armor is more durable than the wearer.


Like I said, common sense.

Lets do a research on armor on the web, and see if we can find armor that are less durable than human flesh. 






> Lets walk through this step by step.
> 
> When vegeta was on planet namek, did he use armor?




I haven't seen DB... I only know those characters from you tube clips and shit.




> Um, that's basically a concession on your part as you flat out ignore that even if you wear armor that's less durable than yourself it still puts a layer or defense that an attack has to go through in order to hurt you and that gives you which increases your defenses, thus it's obviously a reason to wear the armor.


I didn't ignore it, I am just saying that it is not likely you'll wear an armor that is less durable than your flesh.




> Whether or not an armor is deemed pointless would be the pros and cons subjectively weight against each other in the certain scenario.  If the benefit of X more defense is greater than Y decreased mobility then no it wouldn't be pointless and vice versa.


And what I am saying is, the benefit of an armor less durable than yourself is slim to none.
Because the main purpose you wear armor is to protect yourself against attacks that you normally can't.
So armor tend to be more durable than human flesh.




> Oh and was it ever stated or implied that Susanoo slowed 100% Kurama down?  Even if i gave you your argument with zero need for any reasoning that the speed decrease made the defense decrease 'pointless' the suppression prevention, the additional arms, the mountain range slicing blades and ability to make bijuudamas uncatcheable are still there and thus Madara has more than enough reason to coat kurama with PS.


Not that I remember of.
I wasn't referring to that particular instance, rather I was making a general statement.




> Um nothing I've stated even remotely contradicts what we know about armors as what we know about armor is that by definition all it is is something that:  thus it has absolutely nothing to do with how durable that armor is compared to the wearer nor does it have anything to do with how effective it is at defending against the weapon.



You are missing one detail there.
It mentions "weapons."
Most weapons(whether it is a projectile or a melee) have the capability of easily cutting through flesh, even bones.
Armor are built taking that into consideration.
So by default, armors are on a different ballpark than human flesh in regards to durability.
Maybe the dictionary doesn't meantion this because it is common sense.



> What you are doing is straight up reasoning in a circle.  You make up your own definition of what armor is, call Susanoo 'armor' and then say 'because susanoo is called 'armor' then it gets the made up definition of what defines a construct as 'armor' and thus susanoo is more durable than kurama.



Susano'o wears armor. It is a fact.
Susano'o is boasted for its protective properties, it is mainly a defensive technique. That is also a fact.

I am not making any assumptions here. Just using common sense.
You are the one constantly nit picking and struggling with semantics.


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't say it isn't considered as armor, I said it isn't exactly armor.
> It obviously can be considered as armor because it grants significant protection to the user.


So your definition of 'armor' is that it has to grant 'significant protection to the user'.  Well, by that definition why would Susanoo have to be more durable than Kurama?  If it's as durable as Kurama, it most definitely is providing significant protection to it since it's doubling its defenses.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And as for the raikage example you chose to ignore, like I said, context would be important.
> 
> If Raikage is given chakra cloak simply because it is basically given to every single shinobi in the entire battlefield, then no I wouldn't exactly say that the cloak is more durable than Raikage.
> 
> But if Raikage gets saved by the cloak, just like how Madara manifested Susano'o around Kyuubi the moment before he was hit by the Bijuudama, then yeah, I'd argue that the cloak itself is more durable than Raikage.


Um that has nothing to do with the question: if the cloak was given to him, would it be considered armor, all you are saying is whether or not the cloak would be more durable than sandaime raikage.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are hiding behind a dictionary definition which says "any covering worn as defense against weapons."
> Ok lets see how much that definition will protect you. Answer this :
> 
> What weapon does a jean protect you from ?


So grimmjowsensei's logic is that using the actual definition of something is 'hiding behind the definition'.

And airsoft guns would be something jeans protect you from, abrasive weapons, corrosive weapons such as acid.  Oh and guess what?  The definition you've just quoted does not mean it has to completely protect you from any weapon at all, all it has to do is be worn as a defense against the weapon, it doesn't mean that it has to succeed as a defense.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> "Covering worn as protection against weapons ?"
> 
> Human flesh isn't strong enough to protect you against weapons.
> Yet armors do. So by default, armors you wear are more durable than you are.
> ...


Covering worn as a DEFENSE against weapons, which says absolutely nothing about the success fullness or quality of that defense.  And human flesh IS strong enough to protect you against weapons as weapons by definition are   and human flesh most definitely protects you from all hosts of things that can be used as a weapon, that actually one of the functions of skin.

Nothing you've typed remotely resembles common sense or logic, that's just you showing your lack of understanding of the terms you are throwing around in this argument.  



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't think that definition support you in this case.
> 
> It says any covering worn as a protection against weapons.
> 
> So everyday clothing doesn't fit the criteria.


It says any covering worn as DEFENSE against weapons and it also says 'any protective covering'.  Thus the second definition straight up supports jeans as armor unless you prove that it is not protective covering. 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> What ?
> 
> It is common sense.
> If a sword can pierce your gut and if you are wearing an armor to prevent that, then by default the armor is more durable than your flesh.




No crap if a sword can pierce your gut and you wear armor that you believe can stop that from happening, then you'd believe that the armor is more durable than your flesh.  But that's only if the weapon is a sword and you believe that the defense of your armor is so great that it would stop the sword from doing that.  If the weapon is a fist, a rock, a plank of wood full of nails, or even a paintball gun, and you are wearing an armor that to DEFEND against that, it doesn't mean that the armor is more durable than yourself.

So by your sword and gut example, do you have any argument that had the amount of punches that hit susanoo hit kurama instead, Kurama would have been in a worse condition?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Like I said, common sense.
> 
> Lets do a research on armor on the web, and see if we can find armor that are less durable than human flesh.


Except that's not common sense, if anything it's a common misconception which you are exploiting to make a non-sequitor case logically possible by coming up with your own definition for what is 'armor'.

and why would us being able to find armor less durable than human flesh have anything to do with the argument that armor doesn't have to be as durable as human flesh to be considered armor?  If people have  the means to make armor more durable than human flesh, obviously they'd choose to make that rather than armor that's less durable since it offers more protection and thus you wouldn't see any products of that sort, however it means jack squat about those less durable protections being armor.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> I haven't seen DB... I only know those characters from you tube clips and shit.


Well, let me tell you frieza and vegeta both use armor, yet are magnitudes more durable than the armor that they wear.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I didn't ignore it, I am just saying that it is not likely you'll wear an armor that is less durable than your flesh.


Are you saying this as merely people in the real world or people in fiction and reality?  The reason why people in reality can wear armor that's more durable than their flesh is because they have access to those kinds of armor.  If none of those armors were available, then they'd definitely use armor that are less durable than human flesh since it still increases their durability and offers protection and protection is better than no protection.

Madara had no other options, his only way of armoring kurama was to quote it with susanoo, thus since armor isn't necessarily more durable than the wearer, you'd have to go by feats.  Why are you so afraid of going by feats? Is susanoo just that weak of a defense?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> And what I am saying is, the benefit of an armor less durable than yourself is slim to none.
> Because the main purpose you wear armor is to protect yourself against attacks that you normally can't.


Hell no the benefit of armor less durable than yourself is slim to none, it depends on what you are going up against.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not that I remember of.
> I wasn't referring to that particular instance, rather I was making a general statement.


I'm guessing you concede this as you ignored the fact that even if i granted you without any evidence that the speed decrease balances out the defense increase, Madara still has all the reason to coat kurama.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> You are missing one detail there.
> It mentions "weapons."
> Most weapons(whether it is a projectile or a melee) have the capability of easily cutting through flesh, even bones.
> Armor are built taking that into consideration.
> ...


None of that is true, that's just making up your own definition for what a weapon is just like you make up your own definition for what armor is.  




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Susano'o wears armor. It is a fact.
> Susano'o is boasted for its protective properties, it is mainly a defensive technique. That is also a fact.


So?  Susanoo being a defensive technique means jack squat about it being more durable than the stuff its suppose to protect.  Sasuke, Itachi and madara aren't less durable than susanoo because susanoo is used as a defense, they are less durable than susanoo because susanoo has withstood attacks that would outright kill sasuke and itachi with no problems in the most basic stages.  thus it's BY FEATS that we attribute the defense to be greater than the defended it's never that by default the defense is greater.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I am not making any assumptions here. Just using common sense.
> You are the one constantly nit picking and struggling with semantics.


You aren't using any sense.  If 'common sense' requires that you make up your own definition and use logical fallacies in order to generate a non-sequiter argument then even if most people believed that train of thought, you are straight up wrong.  If the entire world believed that 1 + 1 = 7, does that suddenly mean that 1 + 1 = 7 is a true statement? Of course not, it means that the entire world is mistaken.  So no, the guy who's only argument is just saying 'im using common sense' while ignoring why what he toughts as 'common sense' is straight up wrong is the guy who doesn't know what he's talking about and can't support his argument with actual reasoning, logic or evidence.

Seriously, why are you so afraid of arguing by feats? Is Susanoo that crappy of a defense?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2013)

Can Hashirama's dragon absorb the chakra of other jutsu like FRS?


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Can Hashirama's dragon absorb the chakra of other jutsu like FRS?



not until it actually shows it can and by what mechanics it can absorb ninjutsu. That ninjutsu absorbing ability would have sure come in handy when *Kurama fired a bijuudama right into its face.* Or when it had susanoo's sword in its mouth.

Even if we gave it the ability to absorb ninjutsu, t had to bite the kurama avatar before it could begin absorbing it.  If it tries to do that to FRs its head gets blown up before it can begin absorbing the tech.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> not until it actually shows it can and by what mechanics it can absorb ninjutsu. That ninjutsu absorbing ability would have sure come in handy when *Kurama fired a bijuudama right into its face.* Or when it had susanoo's sword in its mouth.
> 
> Even if we gave it the ability to absorb ninjutsu, t had to bite the kurama avatar before it could begin absorbing it.  If it tries to do that to FRs its head gets blown up before it can begin absorbing the tech.



I'll give you that, so what Madara did was simple suppression to Naruto. However you can argue that if timed right, Hashirama can actually wield the FRS and use it against Naruto when using Mokuton: Mokujin. Similar to how he did with the Bijuu-Dama.


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> I'll give you that, so what Madara did was simple suppression to Naruto. However you can argue that if timed right, Hashirama can actually wield the FRS and use it against Naruto when using Mokuton: Mokujin. Similar to how he did with the Bijuu-Dama.



no, Hashirama can't wield a FRS any better than he can wield a bijuudama with a PS blade inside of it.  that was the whole point of the combining the bomb and the blade: so hashi can't just grab them and shove them back at madara.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 18, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> no, Hashirama can't wield a FRS any better than he can wield a bijuudama with a PS blade inside of it.  that was the whole point of the combining the bomb and the blade: so hashi can't just grab them and shove them back at madara.



You're referring to Madara using that on attack on Hashirama who _didn't_ have Mokujin out.


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## ueharakk (Nov 18, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're referring to Madara using that on attack on Hashirama who _didn't_ have Mokujin out.



And is that some kind of evidence that he didn't use that to make bijuudamas uncatchable?  If mokujin can catch one of those why even bother using that technique instead of a normal bijuudama or PS slashes?


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## Fiiction (Jan 5, 2014)

Hashirama mid-difficulty


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## ARGUS (Jan 5, 2014)

Hashirama still wins this 

Regardless of the full kyuubi and BSM,,, Hashirama can still counter all or narutos moves 
His SS will put kyuubi to sleep... And will make Nardo run out of his BM 
Hashirama will then end naruto with CK 
Assuming that 100% BSM jus gives u extra chakra... 
Unless we see Nardo get a different ability from this power up he can't win this 
Hashirama wins this extreme diff


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Jan 5, 2014)

Given that Hashirama has Mokuton dragons which can specifically suppress chakra and specifically absorb chakra... Obviously he wins.


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## Senjuclan (Jan 5, 2014)

Elia said:


> - Naruto's resengan destroyed obito's black shield which is at least two tiers above Hashi's wood.
> - So, are you suggesting that Hashi's wood is stronger than obito's black spheres?
> - I don't think 1000 punch is one, but regardless, we all know that the jin is stronger than the Bijuu.
> - Because Narutp can redirect them against as he did the 5 Bijuus?
> - Yeah, but he can use his speed to dodge Hashi's attack and then fire them off.



This is just a dumb argument. Sage mode rasengan broke through the sphere because it is sage mode not because it is strong. Any sage mode attack would work on the sphere. Rasengan is a joke compared to mokuton. Feats prove that.

Anyways, to answer the question, Hashirama wins mid difficulty because he is stronger and is a bad match up for Naruto. He can seal him with his gates, which sealed jyuubi itself. Naruto has nothing to hurt Hashirama with. He can block ALL his attacks and heal from anything Naruto dishes out.


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## Jak N Blak (Jan 6, 2014)

It seems...war never changes.

I thought we could have come into 2014 peacefully but no...
It seems I will have to strap on my armor once again and battle for Naruto honour.


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## Jagger (Jan 6, 2014)

Oh man, not this again.


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