# Rikudo Naruto (The Last) vs. Hagoromo Otsutsuki



## Ersa (Feb 11, 2015)

Another thread aroused my curiosity.

This is purely hypothetical since Rikudo Mode was not used in The Last, either because he lost it or because he didn't need it. And he didn't use it because this *[]* looks nothing like this *[]*, he lacks the Gedodamas too. 

*Location*: The Moon
*Distance*: 50m
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill.
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Restrictions*: None.

*Scenario 1*: Pre-Juubi Hagoromo 
*Scenario 2*: Prime Hagoromo


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 11, 2015)

For all intents and purposes, that was his Rikudo Sage Mode in The Last Erzatz. He could still fly in the form (which he can't without Six Path chakra) and I think he purposely didn't use Gudodama because he was up against a Gudodama user (which didn't work too well against Madara's). The look is just different since he has 100% of Kurama inside him instead of 50%.


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## Ersa (Feb 11, 2015)

He used Gudodama against Kaguya and Madara, actually it was pretty crucial in the Kaguya fight. And no if you look at the designs closer, it looks much closer to Bijuu Mode then his Rikudo Mode. Can't he use Six Paths chakra even in base? He did kick away a Gudodama with just his feet, the flight was never stated to be exclusive to his Rikudo Mode. Design and lack of Gudodama orbs points to Bijuu Mode.

Just assume for this thread anyway, it's hypothetical.


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## Euraj (Feb 11, 2015)

I've slacked with the manga since it ended, to be honest, but I don't think we ever saw Hagoromo in combat or ever got enough information to accurately place him anywhere. You know he has the Six Paths, the Treasured tools, and a lot chakra. But does he have a chakra mech? How fast is he? Does he have his mother or Madara's Rin'negan jutsu? If I threw him in a thread, I'd make a list of some things to assume about his abilities.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 11, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> He used Gudodama against Kaguya and Madara, actually it was pretty crucial in the Kaguya fight. And no if you look at the designs closer, it looks much closer to Bijuu Mode then his Rikudo Mode. Can't he use Six Paths chakra even in base? He did kick away a Gudodama with just his feet, the flight was never stated to be exclusive to his Rikudo Mode. Design and lack of Gudodama orbs points to Bijuu Mode.
> 
> Just assume for this thread anyway, it's hypothetical.


Again, Naruto never went Gudodama vs Gudodama against Madara or Kaguya. Its far more effective using senjutsu ninjutsu against Gudodama then Gudodama against it. And the reason for the appearance change is due to having 100% of Kurama inside him, the seal changed and markings changed. Hell at one point Naruto DID use Gudodama in _The Last_ when he landed a Rasengan on Toneri, we see a Gudodama Shield behind him to cushion the blow from Toneri's counter.

Flight is only able to be used in Rikudo Mode.


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## Kyu (Feb 11, 2015)

Hagoromo should be stronger than Naruto looking back at all the tools & powers he's got up his sleeve, but we really don't know much at all about his combat prowess. His mother Kaguya is above him yet she got bitched out by Naruto(two years prior to The Last) mostly due to her lack of actual combat experience. So that plays a pretty big role when your opposition is someone who's a competent shinobi and has trolled the Rinnegan more than a few times.

The Sage created the 'moon' on his deathbed; on the other hand, Naruto defeated Moon-cutting Toneri w/o RSM.

Leaning towards Naruto.


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## Zef (Feb 11, 2015)

Hmmm....Naruto has put up quite a fight against people with better feats then Hagoromo (Madara, Toneri, Kaguya).I mean......RSM Naruto tore Kaguya's arm off. BSM Naruto(The movie Databook confirms it as BSM) got to the level where he could fight against a moon buster.

If I'm going by feats I'll give it to Naruto high diff. High diff since Hagaromo's Rinnegan will give Naruto trouble. 

If I'm going by hype however then Hagoromo med diff.

Adult Naruto should be perfectly capable of handling Hagoromo though.The rate at which Naruto, and Sasuke get stronger is just to fast.In the War Arc alone they received several power ups, and jumped at least 10 tiers.Their older forms post 699 should be monsters if we follow the same trend. 

This is all my opinion of course.....


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## Nikushimi (Feb 11, 2015)

Itachi solos.


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## ARGUS (Feb 12, 2015)

Hagoromo beats him in the first scenario mid diff, whilst he clowns him in the second, 

 -- Naruto recieved Non Jin Hagoromos Yang half, which enabled him to get six path senjutsu, something which hagoromo already has, added with full mastery of the rinnegan that he has as well as the other Yin half as well, leading to much stronger and greater chakra 

 -- narutos ashura avatar is good and all, but hagoromo can do nearly everything that he could do on a greater scale, as well as use his eye techniques that would trump on anything that sasuke had showed, so with that being said naruto doesnt stand much of a chance against him and would still lose 

 -- giving hagoromo the juubi means that he clowns him with the easiest of diffiiculties seeing how he would get the masssive boost of being a JJ, as welll as the enormous chakra, and boost in firepower, puttting him a tier above naruto


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## Veracity (Feb 12, 2015)

Yeah logically hagoromo in his prime should be massively superior to JJ Madara, given how powerful he can make Naruto and Sasuke by just giving half his chakra. Imagine 100% of that chakra + the complete JUUBI inside him? Look him powerful Naruto is, and the sage essentially has everything he has + full mastery of the rinnegan + 8 other Bjuii + better mastery of his ability. The sage is literally Naruto and Sasuke combined + better mastery of his abilities/more experience  .



But given how poorly Kishi powerscaled Kaguya I donno anymore.


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## Ersa (Feb 12, 2015)

I doubt someone with half of Hagaromo's power could tear the arm off someone stronger then Hagaromo. I don't think Naruto is only half of Hagaromo's power or at least Kishimoto wasn't trying to show that going off what happened in the manga.


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## Zef (Feb 12, 2015)

To add on to my original post. Kaguya, and JJ Madara were immortal.


If Naruto does to Hagaromo what he did to Madara, and Kaguya the Sage is done for.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Hagoromo beats him in the first scenario mid diff, whilst he clowns him in the second,
> 
> -- Naruto recieved Non Jin Hagoromos Yang half, which enabled him to get six path senjutsu, something which hagoromo already has, added with full mastery of the rinnegan that he has as well as the other Yin half as well, leading to much stronger and greater chakra
> 
> ...



ARGUS owned this thread all by himself.


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

Hagoromo has all of Naruto's powers and has an *entire set* more. How can one possibly argue in Naruto's favor?


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## Alex Payne (Feb 12, 2015)

Kai said:


> Hagoromo has all of Naruto's powers and has an *entire set* more. How can one possibly argue in Naruto's favor?


This. You can somewhat argue about pre-Jin Hagoromo. But someone with Jubi, Naruto's powers and mastered Rinnegan should be decisively stronger. Even assuming that friendly Kyubi and bits of Biju-friends working together > unfriendly Jubi(heaviliy debatable considering Sasuke's high level control over bijus was compared to Hagoromo's). Mastered Rinnegan is a big deal. Sasuke's lack of mastery of his new eye was specifically pointed out.


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## Source (Feb 12, 2015)

Hagoromo destroys him.

Hokage Naruto may stand a chance...who knows. 



Zef said:


> RSM Naruto tore Kaguya's arm off.



I'm inclined to call that feat bullshit/an outlier given that she shrugged off his steam-enhanced attack and also the Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken which is his strongest attack outside of his mech. It's completely nonsensical for him to then seriously injure her with a regular attack.


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## Alucardemi (Feb 12, 2015)

Source said:


> I'm inclined to call that feat bullshit/an outlier given that she shrugged off his steam-enhanced attack and also the Super Bijuu Rasenshuriken which is his strongest attack outside of his mech. It's completely nonsensical for him to then seriously injure her with a regular attack.



maybe it had something to do with the coolest guy dying


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## LostSelf (Feb 12, 2015)

I second Kai. Harogromo has Naruto's and Sasuke's powers. I seriously don't see Naruto winning.


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## Ersa (Feb 12, 2015)

He made some pretty huge gains between chapter 699 and The Last. I mean the dude is throwing around laser guided FRS in base without clones. The improvement is day and night.

The fact that even without accessing his Six Paths mode he was able to match someone who cut the moon in half at least suggests to me with full use of his Truthseekers he'd give Hagoromo more then a bit of trouble. 

And we can't forget what his weaker form accomplished against Hagoromo's superior. *[1][2]*


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## Alex Payne (Feb 12, 2015)

I have my doubts about pre-power up Kaguya being superior to Jin Hagoromo. And we still don't know the details about Bros battles vs Kaguya/Jubi. There is some weird stuff about it like Bros not being aware that they are fighting Kaguya. Maybe she was using controlled Biju Mode or something.


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## Kai (Feb 12, 2015)

Again. Landing a hit on Kaguya doesn't tell tale anything in comparison to Hagoromo's strength.

Unless you believe Hagoromo and Hamura weren't landing any hits whatsoever on their mother until the final Chibaku Tensei. A character stated to be stronger than another does not mean the lesser character is useless against them. Kaguya is flat out superior to Hagoromo, yet it's inconceivable that Hagoromo wouldn't be able to dish out a successful blow(s) on her.


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## ARGUS (Feb 12, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I doubt someone with half of Hagaromo's power could tear the arm off someone stronger then Hagaromo. I don't think Naruto is only half of Hagaromo's power or at least Kishimoto wasn't trying to show that going off what happened in the manga.



Sakura landed a hit on Kaguya, does that make her a level above Hagoromo? No it doesnt

RSM naruto is 50% of Non Jin Hagooromos power, 
now if we give him mastery of his powers and the ashura avatar, then at the very most he gets to be near non jin hagoromos level, which is still far fetched seeing how he has the rinnegan and the extra yin half as well 

a prime jin hagoromo poops on him with the utmost ease, that shouldnt be even debatable 



Zef said:


> To add on to my original post. Kaguya, and JJ Madara were immortal.
> 
> 
> *If Naruto does to Hagaromo what he did to Madara, and Kaguya the Sage is done for*.



hagoromo could very well be more reflexive than RSM naruto, 
afterall its his power boost that got naruto to do that, 
so the bold is wrong


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## Zef (Feb 12, 2015)

Source said:


> Hagoromo destroys him.
> 
> Hokage Naruto may stand a chance...who knows.
> 
> ...



Calling the feat bullshit doesn't change the fact that it happened. 

Again, Kaguya has the benefit of being immortal. 

If Hagoromo sustains the damage she, and Madara took he's dead.

Whether Naruto gets the chance to do such damage is another story.


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## Csdabest (Feb 12, 2015)

Honestly it didn't seem like Naruto got all that Stronger In Raw power. Toneri was stated to be at Madara's Level. I believe Naruto made huge SKILL gain during the time skip and learned how to use abilities on his own. Now on the other side of the coin Sasuke vaporized a meteor in base with a basic chidori. If you ask me he seemed to have had Raw power gains. 

But to be real. There is nothing much that was shown to stop Naruto from having his Chakra absorbed. I think I saw some scenes of Naruto chakra being absorbed by Toneri.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

Hagoromo comfortably beats Naruto. The *half* of Hagoromo's chakra is the reason why Naruto was so strong in The Last and during his fight with Kaguya.


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## Arles Celes (Feb 12, 2015)

Depends how high we do scale RS.

If he got Juubi and both Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki powers then he can be more versatile than either RSM Naruto or Rinnegan Sasuke.

He also got tons of knowledge and supposedly fully mastered his Rinnegan along with getting cooperation with bijuus.

He admitted inferiority to his mother but then again Naruto was also weaker than her.

If Naruto actually lost RSM and cannot use gudoudamas then he cannot use bijuu frs nor any jutsu he could perform in cooperation with bijuus.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 12, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Depends how high we do scale RS.
> 
> If he got Juubi and both Uchiha and Senju/Uzumaki powers then he can be more versatile than either RSM Naruto or Rinnegan Sasuke.
> 
> ...



Hagoromo has 50% more powerfull chakra than Naruto + Rinnegan and knowledge. Non-Juubi Hagoromo beats Naruto. Juubi Jin Hagoromo might stomp him.


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## Lurko (Feb 13, 2015)

Hagoromo beats the last Naruto atleast, we never got to see to see Naruto at the Eos so we don't know.


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## Ersa (Feb 13, 2015)

Kai said:


> Again. Landing a hit on Kaguya doesn't tell tale anything in comparison to Hagoromo's strength.


Matching her briefly and managing a blitz on Hagoromo's superior can indicate that Hagoromo might struggle against him in some areas. For example if Itachi went and blitzed Madara you might be inclined to change your mind on the Nagato vs. Itachi match-up even if Nagato and Madara have different movesets.

Of course I have no doubt Hagoromo can easily deal with 17 year old Naruto, the thread is asking if Naruto with massive gains over 2 years can take down Hagoromo. 



> Unless you believe Hagoromo and Hamura weren't landing any hits whatsoever on their mother until the final Chibaku Tensei. A character stated to be stronger than another does not mean the lesser character is useless against them. Kaguya is flat out superior to Hagoromo, yet it's inconceivable that Hagoromo wouldn't be able to dish out a successful blow(s) on her.


I never said Hagoromo could never touch Kaguya.

It's more how much weight does having good feats against Hagoromo's superior do in relation to their power levels.


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## Blu-ray (Feb 13, 2015)

None Jin Hagoromo is debatable, but it should be common sense that Naruto loses to the Jinchuriki version. Naruto's speed, reactions, and reflexes are nice, but it's a pointless argument in his favor because they came from Hagoromo to begin with. Same goes for his destructive power. Naruto is at best on par with him in physical stats, and Hagoromo not only has the Yin power stacked on top of that, but with a full power Rinnegan as well.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> For all intents and purposes, that was his Rikudo Sage Mode in The Last Erzatz. He could still fly in the form (which he can't without Six Path chakra) and I think he purposely didn't use Gudodama because he was up against a Gudodama user (which didn't work too well against Madara's). The look is just different since he has 100% of Kurama inside him instead of 50%.



He didn't fly, (jumping and floating in low g isn't flight) and the movie book confirms it to be Kurama Mode. Godudama also come automatically with the mode. When inert, they'd simply float behind and do nothing.


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## StarWanderer (Feb 13, 2015)

> None Jin Hagoromo is debatable, but it should be common sense that Naruto loses to the Jinchuriki version.



None Jin Hagoromo has 50% stronger chakra and the Rinnegan, most likely fully mastered. How the fork is that debatable?

None Jin Hagoromo beats Rikudou Naruto. Juubi Jin Hagoromo might stomp.


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## Mercurial (Aug 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again, Naruto never went Gudodama vs Gudodama against Madara or Kaguya. Its far more effective using senjutsu ninjutsu against Gudodama then Gudodama against it. And the reason for the appearance change is due to having 100% of Kurama inside him, the seal changed and markings changed. *Hell at one point Naruto DID use Gudodama in The Last when he landed a Rasengan on Toneri, we see a Gudodama Shield behind him to cushion the blow from Toneri's counter.*
> 
> Flight is only able to be used in Rikudo Mode.



Could you please post an image or the timing for that? I'm really interested in seeing that feat.


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## Bonly (Aug 2, 2015)

Naruto got half of the Sages powers when he wasn't a Juubi Jin. That means the Sage has pretty much what Naruto showed off as well as the Rinnegan and it's jutsu as well as being a Juubi Jin and all the perks that come with that among a few other things. And Naruto is suppose to win with a fraction of all of the Sage's power?


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## sanninme rikudo (Aug 3, 2015)

Hagoromo sweeps Naruto, then mops the floor with him in both scenarios.


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## Rocky (Aug 4, 2015)

Both Naruto _and Sasuke_ would have lost to Kaguya a dozen different times throughout the final chapters if it weren't for their friends supporting them alongside Kaguya's unwillingness to kill them at first. Naruto wasn't fodder before her, but it should've been pretty clear that he didn't really stand a chance at beating her by himself. 

Naruto improved in The Last, but so much that he's superior to his younger self & Rinnegan Sasuke working together....and that's essentially what Hagoromo is.

You know, plus far more experience.

And the Jūbi...


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 5, 2015)

Rikudou Sennin mops the floor with any version of Naruto. It's not even debatable.
He's got far more experience/knowledge than Naruto; stronger chakra; much larger reserves; complete mastery of Rinnegan's techniques; and Juubi to top it off.


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## The Undying (Aug 6, 2015)

The gains Naruto made between EoS and The Last are significant, but not nearly as massive as certain people would like to believe. One thing that should be considered is the inherent difference in power boosts between 100% Kurama and 50% Kurama, which doesn't really scale with other forms that have independent improvements on their own.

Naruto would lose this pretty handily.


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## Shinobi no Kami (Aug 6, 2015)

naruto didnt show better feats in the last than in the manga. 

neither naruto or sasuke increased their full power after VOTE featwise. their full power probably peaked excluding outside powers_(such as biju PS)_.
their abilities simply became more refined.

sasukes base abilities have gotten better apparently, but as shown by the gaiden his full power is still the same PS that he has had from the war.
narutos full power would still be the six paths kurama avatar, but i guess you could say that his base skills look more impressive.

naruto the last doesnt have anything more to threaten hagoromo with then his war arc counterpart does. hagoromo destroys him.


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## Raiken (Aug 6, 2015)

So this is Naruto with SPSM, during The Last, and with 100% Kurama.

VS Pre-Juubi Hagaromo, Naruto wins.

VS Juubi Jinchuuriki Hagoromo, Hagaromo wins.


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