# Ninja Levels Progression



## Alex Payne (Aug 30, 2015)

​
Quite a few threads with P1 characters being ranked differently in terms of genin/chunin/jonin levels. Let's see if we can compile everything here. I am also interested in progress.

Levels in question:

Genin
High Genin
Low Chunin
Mid Chunin
High Chunin
Low Jonin
Mid Jonin
High Jonin
Elite Jonin
Kage

Evaluated Characters:

Sasuke(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2)
Naruto(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2 with KN1 and up restricted)
Neji(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)
Kiba(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)
Gaara(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)
Shikamaru(Chunin Exams, SRA, Immortals Arc)
Ino(Chunin Exams, Immortals Arc, War Arc)
Lee(Chunin Exams, SRA, War Arc)
Sound 4 Members
Kimimaro(Gaara fight)
Gaiden Kakashi(Original Eyes, Sharingan)
Gaiden Obito(Sharingan)
Haku

Example: 

Sasuke - high genin at Wave Arc, low chunin in Forest of Death, high chunin vs Gaara, mid jonin at VotE, Kage at the beginning of Part 2.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2015)

Yay!

*Wave Sasuke - Low Chunin *

He rescued Sakura and disarmed two low Chunin. I'm not saying he could win, but he definitely looked better than they did in that instant, and I'd say he'd put up a solid fight against either.

*Wave Sasuke P2 - Mid Chunin *

Sasuke went from frozen in fear from Zabuza to blitzing all ten of Zabuza's water clones, impressing the elite Jonin. Kakashi also later tells Iruka that he believes Sasuke surpassed Iruka.

*CE Sasuke (After Speed Training) - Low Jonin*

Weightless Lee had Jonin speed, as he blitzed P2 Wave Sasuke. Sasuke copied that, and then went a step further with Chidori. He's a carbon copy of kid Kakashi, but with Uchiha blood and the CS.

*VotE Sasuke - High Jonin*

KN0 was blitzing weightless Lee level. After unlocking the 3-tomoe, Sasuke was destroying KN0. Then CS2 gave him a senjutsu Chidori, increased durability, and more speed.

*Start of P2 Sasuke - Mid Kage*

We saw him singlehandedly defeat what looked to be Orochimaru's entire Sound army without drawing blood from any of them and without taking damage from them. Seemingly without exertion.

*Wave Naruto - High Genin*

Naruto had already defeated a Chunin in the beginning of the manga, and his usage of Kage Bunshin made him very special by Genin standards. He still had atrocious CQC skill though.

*CE Naruto - High Chunin*

In base he had the Rasengan, but was still overly reliant on Kage Bunshin to make up for his (improving!) CQC skill. I'd say mid Chunin in base, and Low Jonin in KN0. Low Kage with Gamabuta.

*VotE Naruto - High Jonin*

His KN0 at this point was more powerful: blitzing Sasuke with weightless Lee speed. He then took his speed and threat level up a second level with KN1 armor and the super-Rasengan.

*Start of P2 Naruto - Low Kage*

Naruto actually had some CQC skill as we saw him counter Chiyo and Kakashi well. I also give him the benefit of the doubt in thinking he could summon Gamabuta and access KN0 more reliably.

*CE Neji - Low Jonin*

The same Lee that effortlessly battered Wave Sasuke knew he'd need to unlock five gates to beat Neji. Neji had the speed to blitz most people, and the CQC skill to dominate those he couldn't.

*SRA Neji - Mid Jonin*

After finally being allowed to train with Hiashi, his skill shot up. The databook lists him as 4.5 in taijutsu and 4 in speed. With those numbers, Kaiten, and 359 degree perception, he's a tough cookie.

*Start of P2 Neji - Elite Jonin*

I'd say Neji was elite Jonin level at this point, although his key stats improved very marginally (he's a little faster.) With his abilities, I can't see him losing to P1 Kabuto or Zabuza at this point.

*CE Gaara - Low Jonin*

Gaara had Chunin level reactions (below Lee, Neji, Sasuke, etc.) but extremely defensive and effective ninjutsu. He beat the 2nd test so fast that the Anko put him above the level of Chunin.

*SRA Gaara - Low Kage*

Gaara's primary weakness - lower level reactions - was rectified. Kimimaro and his 4.5 speed couldn't get through. His ninjutsu was also _massive_, particularly by weeny P1 scaling.

*Start of P2 Gaara - High Kage*

Shukaku Gaara operated on a scale never seen again until god tiers came into play. He flew around in a protective aerial sphere and threw around the desert like an angry god. 

*CE Lee - Low Jonin*

Lee was one-dimensional, but his Jonin level speed without weights made him virtually untouchable to lower level contestants. The gates gave him oompf, but left him vulnerable afterward. 

*SRA Drunk Lee - High Jonin*

Drunk Lee was hyped to knock out Gai, and he had the edge over Kimimaro, who had a 5 in taijutsu and 4.5 in speed. I'd pick Drunk Lee over Itachi in a taijutsu match.

*CE Shikamaru - Mid Chunin*

Shikamaru was limited against the top competitors by his Chunin level reactions, but he was still a fairly dangerous guy that earned the Chunin rank. (His DB reflexes jumped to p2 levels in the SRA.)

*Start of P2 Shikamaru - Mid Jonin*

His reflexes were more polished at this point and he was still the same wildcard as always. Most importantly, he singlehandedly lured an S-rank Akatsuki member into an ambush and took him down.

*Sick Kimimaro - Low Kage*

He was able to tank sand coffin and chakra blades, had crazy regeneration, had a 5 in taijutsu and 4.5 in speed, and could become a bone logia with spears he shot remotely out of the ground.

*Gaiden Obito (with Sharingan) - Low Jonin*

With the 2-tomoe Sharingan and a 3 in speed, he was likely in the Jonin tier of movement which is the key gap between those levels. Obito defeated an invisible Jonin sneaking up behind him.

*Gaiden Kakashi (no Sharingan) - Low Jonin*

He had Chidori at this point, and was most likely faster than base Obito's 3 but slower than Wave Arc Kakashi's 4, so I'd peg him at 3.5 speed like P1 Kabuto, with similar taijutsu. He was Jonin in rank.

*Haku - Elite Jonin*

It was said he was holding back from the beginning in P1, but as an Edo, we say Haku react to Gai and Lee's 5's in speed. Zabuza also said Haku's bloodline (speed) put him above himself and Kakashi.

*Kidomaru - High Jonin*

If Kidomaru wasn't fighting the one ninja that could destroy his webs (without Amaterasu) and 359 desgree perception for sniping, and Jonin level CQC stats... his summon-sniping style was glorious.

*Sakon - Mid Jonin*

In base, Sakon easily beat up CE Sasuke. Sakon also had a "5" mastery in ninjutsu, a full tier higher than P1 Kabuto, and a powerful bloodline. He was blindsided by a puppet ambush, like Edo Deidara.

*Tayuya - Low Jonin*

Tayuya has a "5" in genjutsu mastery, and further boosts it with senjutsu. In the end, she lost to a summon of unprecedented speed and power (that destroyed the forest in an instant.)

*Jirobo - Low Jonin*

With CS boosting his speed, he's strong and decently fast. His ninjutsu incapacitated the entire rescue team for a time. And he only went down to Butterfly Choji, a Hachimon-like incarnation.

*P1 Butterfly Choji - Low Kage*

Like the 8 Gates, it was death for power. Choji flash-stepped behind Jirobi in an instant, and blocked his casual boss-summon-tossing power when 100% of Choji's chakra power was in the other hand.​


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## Altair21 (Aug 30, 2015)

Sasuke - Wave Arc - Genin Chunin Exams - Low Chunin VotE - Mid Jonin Start of Part 2 - Low to mid Kage
Naruto - Wave Arc - Genin Chunin Exams - Low Chunin VotE - Low Jonin Start of Part 2 with KN1 and up restricted - High Jonin 
Neji - Chunin Exams - Low Chunin SRA - High Chunin Start of Part 2 - High Jonin
Kiba - Chunin Exams - Genin SRA - Low Chunin Start of Part 2 - High Chunin
Gaara - Chunin Exams - Elite Jonin SRA - Elite Jonin Start of Part 2 - Low to mid Kage
Shikamaru - Chunin Exams - Low Chunin SRA - Low Chunin Immortals Arc - Mid Jonin
Ino - Chunin Exams - Genin Immortals Arc - Mid Chunin War Arc - High Chunin - Low Jonin
Lee - Chunin Exams Elite Jonin with gates and low Chunin otherwise -  SRA - Same as Chunin Exams War Arc - Elite Jonin in base and low to mid kage with gates
Sound 4 Members - Mid Chunin
Kimimaro(Gaara fight) - Elite Jonin
Gaiden Kakashi(Original Eyes, Sharingan) - Mid Jonin
Gaiden Obito(Sharingan) - Mid Chunin


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## Bonly (Aug 30, 2015)

*Genin lvl*

CE Kiba 
WA Sasuke
WA Naruto
CE Ino(she still da best)

*Chunin lvl*

SRA Gaara
VoTE Naruto+VoTE Sasuke+SRA Neji
Immortals arc Ino
CE Gaara
CE Lee
SRA Shika
CE Naruto
CE Sasuke
SRA Lee
SRA Kiba 
CE Shika

*Low Jonin*

Sound four
Immortals arc Shika

*Mid Jonin*

Kakashi

*Elite Jonin*

Ino
Part one Kimi
Part two Neji
Haku

*Kage lvl*

Homecoming arc Gaara
Part two Sasuke
Part two Naruto


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## Mercurial (Aug 30, 2015)

I'll explain if asked/needed.

*Wave Arc Sasuke - High Genin*
*Wave Arc End Sasuke - Low Chunin *
*CE Sasuke (After Speed Training) - Low Jonin*
*VotE Sasuke - High Jonin*
*Start of P2 Sasuke - Low Kage*

*Wave Arc Naruto - High Genin*
*CE Naruto - High Chunin*
*VotE Naruto - Low Jonin to High Jonin*
*Start of P2 Naruto - High Jonin to Mid Kage**

* with KNO/KN1/KN2/KN3/KN4 potentially unrestricted

*CE Neji - Low Jonin*
*SRA Neji - Mid Jonin*
*Start of P2 Neji - High Jonin*

*CE Gaara - Low Jonin*
*SRA Gaara - High Jonin*
*Start of P2 Gaara - Low/Mid Kage*

*CE Lee - Mid Jonin*
*SRA Drunk Lee - Mid Jonin*

*CE Shikamaru - Low Chunin*
*Start of P2 Shikamaru - Mid/High Jonin*

*CE Ino - Mid/High Genin*
*Immortals Arc Ino - Low Chunin*
*War Arc Ino - High Chunin*

*Sick Kimimaro - High Jonin/Low Kage*

*Gaiden pre Sharingan Obito - Mid Chunin*
*Gaiden Sharingan Obito - Low Jonin*

*Gaiden pre Sharingan Kakashi - Low Jonin*
*Gaiden Sharingan Kakashi - High Jonin*

*Haku - Elite Jonin*

*Kidomaru - Mid Jonin*

*Sakon - Mid Jonin*

*Tayuya - High Chunin*

*Jirobo - High Chunin/Low Jonin*

*P1 Butterfly Choji - Mid/High Jonin*


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## Sadgoob (Aug 30, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Haku - Elite Jonin*





Bonly said:


> *Elite Jonin*
> Haku


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## Alex Payne (Aug 30, 2015)

So... it takes about a month of irregular training/fighting to jump from high-end genin/low-end chunin up to higher jonin range. But from that point it takes _2.5 years_ under the tutelage of Elder Legendary Shinobi to progress into the next sub-level... Did I get that part right?

And that Konoha higher-ups have no idea about jonin-level people running around for years and only being promoted to chunins afterwards? Guys like Lee sure are underestimated by whoever is in charge of promotions...


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2015)

Sasuke(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2) C,HC,LJ,J
Naruto(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2 ) C,HC,LJ,J
Neji(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)HC,LJ,J
Kiba(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)C,HC
Gaara(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)HC,LJ,J
Shikamaru(Chunin Exams, SRA, Immortals Arc)C,HC,J"Prep"
Ino(Chunin Exams, Immortals Arc, War Arc)C,HC,J
Lee(Chunin Exams, SRA, War Arc)HC,LJ,J
Sound 4 Members HC
Kimimaro(Gaara fight) HJ
Gaiden Kakashi(Original Eyes, Sharingan) J
Gaiden Obito(Sharingan) J
Haku HC


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## Icegaze (Aug 30, 2015)

Kimi elite jounin/ low kage depending on how u feel about it 

Kidomaru - high end chunin
Tayuya- high end chunin
Sakon/ukon- low jounin
Jirobo- mid chunin
Haku- high end chunin

Vote sasuke - low jounin
Vote naruto - low jounin


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> So... it takes about a month of irregular training/fighting to jump from high-end genin/low-end chunin up to higher jonin range. But from that point it takes _2.5 years_ under the tutelage of Elder Legendary Shinobi to progress into the next sub-level... Did I get that part right?
> 
> And that Konoha higher-ups have no idea about jonin-level people running around for years and only being promoted to chunins afterwards? Guys like Lee sure are underestimated by whoever is in charge of promotions...



For shounen to make sense, you always have to throw out the final balls out overloaded powerup fight.  Or just say it wasn't really top tier, or they powered down significantly after the fight.  Otherwise the story doesn't make sense.


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## The Undying (Aug 30, 2015)

Yeah, my opinion of the Jounin benchmark is that it's a lot higher than what some others have expressed.

*Genin Tier*

Wave Arc Sasuke
Wave Arc Naruto
Chuunin Exams Kiba
Chuunin Exams Ino

*Chuunin Tier*

Chuunin Exams Sasuke
VOTE Sasuke (without CS)
Chuunin Exams Naruto
VOTE Naruto (without KN and boss summons)
Chuunin Exams Neji
SRA Kiba
Start of Part II Kiba
Chuunin Exams Shikamaru
SRA Shikamaru
Immortals Arc Ino
Gaiden Obito

*Elite Chuunin / Special Jounin Tier*

Sound 4 Members
Haku
SRA Neji
Immortals Arc Shikamaru
Start of Part II Naruto (without KN and boss summons)

*Jounin+ Tier*

Kimimaro
Start of Part II Neji
Start of Part II Gaara
Start of Part II Sasuke


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## Eliyua23 (Aug 30, 2015)

Did I just read that Haku is stronger than Ino in the war , please tell me I didn't just see that , even Tenten was close to low jounin level in the war let alone the rest of the rookies


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## Sans (Aug 30, 2015)

*Sick Kimimaro - Low Genin*

Struggled against 0.001% strength clones from Part I Naruto.​
*Haku - Low Genin*

Struggled against just one crappy Part I Naruto.​
*Kom - Ultimate Troll*

He wants Strategos to cry.​


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## Sans (Aug 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> So... it takes about a month of irregular training/fighting to jump from high-end genin/low-end chunin up to higher jonin range. But from that point it takes _2.5 years_ under the tutelage of Elder Legendary Shinobi to progress into the next sub-level... Did I get that part right?



I've thought about this. My opinion is that Naruto had absolutely crappy fundamentals in Part I thanks to his goofing off and terrible training during the Academy. After that he was able to jury-rig victories through learning two powerful ninjutsu - Kage Bunshin and Rasengan. Combine that with some guts and quick thinking, and Naruto was able to progress leaps and bounds in battle effectiveness.

He still didn't know the basics when it came to decent chakra control, or proper taijutsu methods, or how genjutsu worked, etc. Part I Naruto reached pretty much the best level he could by just abusing gimmicks without having a fleshed out understanding of the shinobi arts. Jiraiya spent the timeskip hammering into shape, which meant he for all appearances didn't benefit much, but had the fundamentals in place to continue growing with a strong foundation during Part II.

Also, Strategos is a lonely virgin.


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## Tarot (Aug 30, 2015)

Wave arc Sasuke -High genin
Wave arc end/Prelims Sasuke -low chunin
CE Sasuke - High chunin
VotE Sasuke - low jonin
Early Part 2 Sasuke - low kage

Wave arc Naruto - high genin
Wave arc/Prelims - low chunin
CE Naruto - mid chunin
VotE Naruto - low jonin
Early Part 2 Naruto - high jonin

Part 1 Sakura - high genin
Early part 2 Sakura - mid jonin

CE Neji - high chunin
SRA Neji - low jonin 
Ep2 Neji - high jonin

Part 1 Lee - low jonin
Part 2 Lee - high jonin

CE Kiba - high genin
SRA Kiba - mid chunin
Part 2 Kiba - low jonin

Part 1 Shino - high chunin
Part 2 Shino - mid jonin

Part 1 Hinata - high genin
Early Part 2 Hinata - high chunin

CE Shikamru - mid chunin
SRA Shikamaru - high chunin
Part 2 Shikamru - low jonin

CE Choji - high genin
SRA Choji - high chunin
Early part 2 Choji - low jonin

Part 1 Ino - high genin
Part 2 Ino - high chunin

CE Gaara - low jonin
SRA Gaara - mid jonin
Part 2 Gaara - mid kage

CE Temari - mid chunin
SRA Temari - low jonin
Part 2 Temari - high jonin

CE Kankuro - high chunin
SRA Kankuro - low jonin
Part 2 Kankuro - high jonin

Zabuza - high jonin
Haku - low jonin

Gaiden Obito - Mid chunin 
Gaiden Kakashi - high chunin
Gaiden Kakashi (Sharingan) - low jonin

Jirobo - high chunin
Kidomaru - low jonin
Tayuya - low jonin
Sakon - low jonin
Kimimaro - high jonin


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

Komnenos just mad I won't give it up.



Alex Payne said:


> So... it takes about a month of irregular training/fighting to jump from high-end genin/low-end chunin up to higher jonin range. But from that point it takes _2.5 years_ under the tutelage of Elder Legendary Shinobi to progress into the next sub-level... Did I get that part right?



Who you talkin' about? In general, I'd say we see much more progress after short training montages than in the big time skip i.e. Sage Naruto, War Arc Choji, War Arc Kakasi, etc. 

Such is life.​


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> I've thought about this. My opinion is that Naruto had absolutely crappy fundamentals in Part I thanks to his goofing off and terrible training during the Academy. After that he was able to jury-rig victories through learning two powerful ninjutsu - Kage Bunshin and Rasengan. Combine that with some guts and quick thinking, and Naruto was able to progress leaps and bounds in battle effectiveness.
> 
> He still didn't know the basics when it came to decent chakra control, or proper taijutsu methods, or how genjutsu worked, etc. Part I Naruto reached pretty much the best level he could by just abusing gimmicks without having a fleshed out understanding of the shinobi arts. Jiraiya spent the timeskip hammering into shape, which meant he for all appearances didn't benefit much, but had the fundamentals in place to continue growing with a strong foundation during Part II.
> 
> Also, Strategos is a lonely virgin.


All good points. Especially the last one. 

Still. Naruto was able to learn Taiju Kagebunshin in half a day. Rasengan in some weeks. Was on par with Sasuke in Tree Climbing training. Water Walking also was learned fast even with messed up chakra due to Oro's seal. Naruto is shown repeatedly that he can learn basic stuff very quickly with enough motivation and proper direction/tips. Don't think the necessary fundamentals took so long to learn.



Strategoob said:


> Komnenos just mad I won't give it up.
> 
> 
> Who you talkin' about? In general, I'd say we see much more  progress after short training montages than in the big time skip i.e.  Sage Naruto, War Arc Choji, War Arc Kakasi, etc.
> ...


You think that Start of P2 Naruto without uncontrolled Kyubi modes is Low Kage. What does that make Start of P2 Kakashi? Mid Kage?


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## Sans (Aug 31, 2015)

Maybe this is proof that Jiraiya is a crappy teacher who spent most of his time going to brothels.


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## Miyazaki Haiko (Aug 31, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> What does that make Start of P2 Kakashi? Mid Kage?



Easy. With Sharingan, and with the Mangekyō's Kamui in his arsenal, Mid Kage. He was able to go against Deidara, albeit not directly, and come out unscathed.


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Did I just read that Haku is stronger than Ino in the war , please tell me I didn't just see that , even Tenten was close to low jounin level in the war let alone the rest of the rookies



Haku would 1 panel ino
The guy blitz Sai who isn't slow and is certainly much faster than ino

1 Senbon to the neck and she drops


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Start of part 2 naruto is jounin top tier 
Even in jutsu and ability 

The only reason people would say Kimi is low kage is due to his 5th dance which exceed what jounin tier are capable of


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Haku would 1 panel ino
> The guy blitz Sai who isn't slow and is certainly much faster than ino
> 
> 1 Senbon to the neck and she drops


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Yes that's ino boosted with Kn1 chakra 
And yes her shintenshin is fast 
Odd how shikamaru wasn't confident that she could catch hidan on her own with it 

So like I said she gets blitz casually


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2015)

Haku can blitz War Arc Ino? On foot or with Mirrors?


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## Sans (Aug 31, 2015)

Option C: He can't blitz at all.


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## Sans (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Komnenos just mad I won't give it up.
> 
> Such is life.[/INDENT]



I'm mad that you love Haku more than you love me.



Alex Payne said:


> All good points. Especially the last one.



Don't worry, I can already feel lucidity fading. Soon I will return to smashing my face into the keyboard and posting the results.

Also at some point I'm doing a European holiday, we'll get drinks.



Alex Payne said:


> Still. Naruto was able to learn Taiju Kagebunshin in half a day. Rasengan in some weeks. Was on par with Sasuke in Tree Climbing training. Water Walking also was learned fast even with messed up chakra due to Oro's seal. Naruto is shown repeatedly that he can learn basic stuff very quickly with enough motivation and proper direction/tips. Don't think the necessary fundamentals took so long to learn.



I guess you can say stuff that requires learning just one specific thing is something Naruto can put his mind to, focus on, and then he can learn quickly. TKB can partially be explained by the hardest part being the required chakra reserves as well. If you need to get Naruto to practice over and over again to master the proper form and techniques for entire taijutsu ranges, moves, blocks, etc, that's when his proclivity for goofing around or getting distracted or being a spazz or getting bored can kick in. 

I imagine Naruto would be even worse when it comes to something like genjutsu, which would probably require a fair bit of academic sitting there and studying to understand.

Factor in Jiraiya himself taking personal time to do whatever, the fact they're traveling around to be undetected (cutting into training time), and Jiraiya still needing to maintain his spy network for Konoha, and I think it's not terribly implausible.


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Haku can blitz War Arc Ino? On foot or with Mirrors?



Mirrors the same ones he used to blitz sai and intercept Kakashi twice in the manga 

Despite being much further away


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Mirrors the same ones he used to blitz sai and intercept Kakashi twice in the manga
> 
> Despite being much further away


Haku creates Mirror right near his targets. All three times Mirrors appeared right next to Kakashi/Sai with Haku jumping out of them. That's not how you blitz someone. Not when your targets are preoccupied at least.


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## Mercurial (Aug 31, 2015)

Haku was able to blitz Sai with his jutsu enhanced speed through Makyo Hyosho, he can casually blitz Ino of all people.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2015)

Alright. Let's do this another way. What is "blitz"?


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## Mercurial (Aug 31, 2015)

Attack someone so fast that he isn't able to counterattack/try to put a defense/react. The more the opponent is unable to respond to your attack, the more you blitzed him. One can directly blitz or counterblitz. Basically the greater the speed gap, the more you pass from fighting on par your opponent to pressuring him and to blitz him.


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> You think that Start of P2 Naruto without uncontrolled Kyubi modes is Low Kage. What does that make Start of P2 Kakashi? Mid Kage?



Like I said, I was giving Naruto the benefit of the doubt in that he could more reliably access KN0 and Gamabuta in battle. I also don't think Kakashi would necessarily beat Naruto in a fight at that point.

Start of P2 Kakashi I'd put at Mid Kage though, as he had top physical stats, and his trump card Kamui was broken even back then, like when he blinked away the Deidara clone.​


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## Mercurial (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Like I said, I was giving Naruto the benefit of the doubt in that he could more reliably access KN0 and Gamabuta in battle. I also don't think Kakashi would necessarily beat Naruto in a fight at that point.
> 
> Start of P2 Kakashi I'd put at Mid Kage though, as he had top physical stats, and his trump card Kamui was broken even back then, like when he blinked away the Deidara clone.​



Start of P2 Kakashi (databook covers until volume 43) was stated to be Konoha's number one shinobi at that point , > Gai (who was stated to be more than equal to everyone from the Akatsuki ), > Jiraiya, >> pre SM Naruto and >>> Tsunade.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 31, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Attack someone so fast that he isn't able to counterattack/try to put a defense/react. The more the opponent is unable to respond to your attack, the more you blitzed him. One can directly blitz or counterblitz. Basically the greater the speed gap, the more you pass from fighting on par your opponent to pressuring him and to blitz him.


And how does it translate into placing a warping point behind your opponent's back when said opponent doesn't see you/is specifically fighting you? Where was the overwhelming speed part in Haku's attack on Sai? And Sai did react to Ice Mirror before Haku threw them senbons. He even threw his guard up protecting his vitals.

Assume Haku is facing Ino one on one in a proper battleground. Do you think he would be able to create one mirror near him, one mirror behind Ino, jump into his mirror, appear in Ino's mirror and attack her... before she can react?




Strategoob said:


> Start of P2 Kakashi I'd put at Mid Kage.​





Miyazaki Haiko said:


> Easy. With Sharingan, and with the Mangekyō's Kamui in his arsenal, Mid Kage. He was able to go against Deidara, albeit not directly, and come out unscathed.


 This pleases me


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## Mercurial (Aug 31, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> And how does it translate into placing a warping point behind your opponent's back when said opponent doesn't see you/is specifically fighting you? Where was the overwhelming speed part in Haku's attack on Sai? And Sai did react to Ice Mirror before Haku threw them senbons. He even threw his guard up protecting his vitals.
> 
> Assume Haku is facing Ino one on one in a proper battleground. Do you think he would be able to create one mirror near him, one mirror behind Ino, jump into his mirror, appear in Ino's mirror and attack her... before she can react?



S/T jutsu and similar jutsu aren't proper physical speed, but they are still a way to approach someone so fast that he is unable to react or counter or defend properly. Kishimoto calls Minato vs young Obito a fight based on speed, even if it was Hiraishin speed vs Kamui speed.

Sai could react, but couldn't counter him, so Haku was still too fast. If Sai was faster/Haku slower, Sai would have countered Haku's attack before he could pinpoint him with senbon. For example, like when the V2 jinchuriki dashed against Kakashi and Gai. If the V2 were faster and Gai and Kakashi slower, the V2 would have hit them. But Kakashi and Gai were faster, a lor faster, so they were able not only to react at the blitz attemped by the V2 jinchuriki, but also to counter them with their own dash, and even counterhitting them before they could defend, landing a lot of hits. If Ei was a lot faster and Minato slower, Minato wouldn't have been able to activate and use Hiraishin to dodge and counterattack Ei. And so on.

With Haku's feats and Ino's feats, I don't see why not honestly, especially if she has no knowledge.


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## Sans (Aug 31, 2015)

Not even Atlantic Storm's parents love him.

He has no friends.

I suspect he will die alone.


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Haku forms mirror behind ino and ends her 
If he can do such and intercept Kakashi trying to stab zabuza with raikiri there is no reason at all ino doesn't get blitz 

Again Haku can easily form 21 mirrors and surround ino ensuring she dies miserably


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> The only reason people would say Kimi is low kage is due to his 5th dance which exceed what jounin tier are capable of



Plus his armor/regeneration/evasion are all above that level.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Tokubetsu Jounin is a rank above Chuunin, but below Jounin. So I would include it in there too.

*Low Kage Level*

Beginning of Part II Gaara
War Arc Rock Lee
Beginning of Part II Sasuke

*Elite Jounin*

Kimimaro
Sasuke Retrieval Arc Gaara
VOTE Naruto / VOTE Sasuke
War Arc Neji Hyuuga

*Mid Jounin*

Chuunin Exam Naruto Uzumaki / Chuunin Exam Gaara
War Arc Kiba Inuzuka
Chuunin Exam Sasuke 
Gaiden Arc Kakashi (with sharingan)
War Arc Shikamaru Nara / War Arc Ino Yamanaka

*Low Jounin*

Immortals Arc Shikamaru Nara
Gaiden Arc Kakashi (without Sharingan)

*Tokubetsu Jounin*

Sakon and Ukon
Tayuya
Sasuke Retrieval Arc Neji Hyuuga / Kidomaru
Jirobo

*High Chuunin*

Chuunin Exam Rock Lee
Chuunin Exam Neji Hyuuga

*Mid Chuunin*

Sasuke Retrieval Arc Shikamaru Nara
Sasuke Retrieval Arc Kiba Inuzuka
Gaiden Arc Obito Uchiha

*Low Chuunin*

Haku
Wave Arc Naruto Uzumaki
Wave Arc Sasuke Uchiha
Immortals Arc Ino Yamanaka

*Genin*

Chuunin Exam Shikamaru Nara
Chuunin Exam Kiba Inuzuka
Chuunin Exam Ino Yamanaka
​​


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Plus his armor/regeneration/evasion are all above that level.



but his base skills aren't anywhere close to kage level though. 
which is where his general level drops

for me kimimaro like jugo or chouji are massively type match up dependent 

they fair very well against some and badly against others

however Mei who is the weakest kage by a good margin would beat kimimaro 

to me that shows he isn't kage level 

kimimaro also has no feats in evasion or any base skill that are above asuma's


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

@godaime war arc rock lee is featless. what do u base low kage level on?

hype? he doesn't even have hype 

Mei trashes rock lee with no difficulty how can he be considered anything close to kage level


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

It's tricky because people underestimate SRA Gaara's growth and Drunk Lee's ability. A 4.5 speed, 5 in taijutsu, and analytical mind puts Kimimaro next to base Gai and Itachi's skill.

His armor in particular is more or less another version of doton: domu in my mind, likened to being harder than steel, and tanking a sand coffin that peeled off (exploded) his outer skin.

Then finally regeneration of flesh and bones, even massive spinal injuries, which I would think would be the toughest to recover from. So somewhat comparable to Tsunade or Orochimaru's regen.

Then Sawarabi no Mai was huge and he became an ambushing logia with it. If healthy and able to stay in there for prolonged amount of times, I'd put him at Mid Kage. But when sick, his time is short.​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Good thing Mei is a Mid Kage and not a Low Kage then.

Rock Lee has access to the Sixth Gate, and showed some impressive speed when he was helping Gai, Minato and Kakashi to fight Madara.

I presume that he's about as strong as Sixth Gated Gai when using his sixth gate, who is about Low Kage Level.​​


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It's tricky because people underestimate SRA Gaara's growth and Drunk Lee's ability. A 4.5 speed, 5 in taijutsu, and analytical mind puts Kimimaro next to base Gai and Itachi's skill.
> 
> His armor in particular is more or less another version of doton: domu in my mind, likened to being harder than steel, and tanking a sand coffin that peeled off (exploded) his outer skin.
> 
> ...



mid kage? wow I thought I was a fan of kimi. I applaud you 

however if we compare sawarabi no mai to something very similar a mid kage can do 

i.e. sasori iron sand world order I think we know which of the 2 is vastly superior 

However unlike iron sand kimi bones don't sprout out nearly as quickly, a simple lava blanket and they will melt before they get to Mei for example

I think its waaaay too much of a stretch based solely on bone forest to put him so high 

because bar that, he cant fight any kage level or even be competition for the weakest of them all 

bar that even part 1 kakashi should beat him, as would asuma

yes I know 1 technique is ususally all it takes for a ninja level to drop or sky rocket. 

am just rambling now, however mid kage is way too much when u consider sasori is also a mid kage  level ninja


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Good thing Mei is a Mid Kage and not a Low Kage then.
> 
> Rock Lee has access to the Sixth Gate, and showed some impressive speed when he was helping Gai, Minato and Kakashi to fight Madara.
> 
> I presume that he's about as strong as Sixth Gated Gai when using his sixth gate, who is about Low Kage Level.​​



so I see our ranking systems differ

I find it odd that the weakest on panel kage Is considered mid kage but sure why not



huge presumption considering gai>>>>>>>>>>>> lee 

I don't see why with the same boost the gap would somehow close


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## Turrin (Aug 31, 2015)

The ranks end up being meaningless, due to the fact that Kishimoto kept shifting the standards for each rank.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so I see our ranking systems differ
> 
> I find it odd that the weakest on panel kage Is considered mid kage but sure why not



I think Mei is stronger than Rasa, Hiruzen and the Sandaime Kazekage. Additionally, there are plenty of shinobi who are Low Kage despite not ever being actual Kage themselves eg. Konan, Mifune, Chiyo, Roshi, that are all weaker than Mei.



> huge presumption considering gai>>>>>>>>>>>> lee
> 
> I don't see why with the same boost the gap would somehow close



Gai is so much stronger than Lee because he has access to the seventh and eighth gate, and is slightly more diverse in that he can use a bit of ninjutsu and has mastery over nunchucks. Lee's base taijutsu stats aren't far off Base Gai's though, so I don't see why he would be significantly weaker in his sixth gate.​​


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> mid kage? wow I thought I was a fan of kimi. I applaud you
> 
> however if we compare sawarabi no mai to something very similar a mid kage can do
> 
> i.e. sasori iron sand world order I think we know which of the 2 is vastly superior



Sasori, however, can't fuse and become one with Satetsu, which is a major strength of Sawarabi, as it adds a great deal to defense and stealth. Sawarabi is also bigger, and more unpredictable.​


Icegaze said:


> bar that even part 1 kakashi should beat him, as would asuma



I strongly disagree. I don't think Hien would cut the bones significantly better than chakra blades, and Asuma's outmatched in skill and speed anyway. Raikiri would work if it landed on a fatal spot like his heart, but Kimimaro can divert blows too easily by sprouting bones at the last second, maybe lock Kakashi in.​


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I think Mei is stronger than Rasa, Hiruzen and the Sandaime Kazekage. Additionally, there are plenty of shinobi who are Low Kage despite not ever being actual Kage themselves eg. Konan, Mifune, Chiyo, Roshi, that are all weaker than Mei.​





care to share why cuz I don't see how her abilities stack up against iron sand, 
or 5 elemental jutsu+ diamond hard staff+ theoretical knowledge of all jutsu in konoha
or gold dust. she could melt it but rasa got more sand than she does lava or acid mist



> Gai is so much stronger than Lee because he has access to the seventh and eighth gate, and is slightly more diverse in that he can use a bit of ninjutsu and has mastery over nunchucks. Lee's base taijutsu stats aren't far off Base Gai's though, so I don't see why he would be significantly weaker in his sixth gate.


​[

if lee was as strong as gai or even close his limit wont be 6th gate. yet it is

that shows their base forms are hugely different

they remind me of super sayians, base goku who can go to SSJ2>>>>>>> base goku who can only go up to SSJ1 

he is significantly weaker, in strength, experience , speed 

so even powering up to 6th he would still be weaker than gai 

unless of course u think goten in SSJ1= goku in SSJ1 

and yes I am assuming u watched DBZ


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Sasori, however, can't fuse and become one with Satetsu, which is a major strength of Sawarabi.​
> 
> 
> I strongly disagree. I don't think Hien would cut the bones significantly better than chakra blades, and Asuma's outmatched in skill and speed anyway. Raikiri would work if it landed on a fatal spot like his heart, but Kimimaro can divert blows to easily by sprouting bones at the last second, then lock Kakashi in.​



sasori however can restrict ur movement through cutting off all escape routes like sawarabi no mai. however poison is a bonus

poison> surprise attack 

outmatched in speed or skill? by feats we have asuma reacting to kisame and kimimaro being countered by rock lee. kisame shits on rock lee hard in cqc even 

I agree he can do that to prevent raikiri. 

in any case who am I kidding I mostly agree with what ur saying, just the ranking seems too much for someone who even sick and dying took more than 2 seconds to dispatch lee


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## Sadgoob (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasori however can restrict ur movement through cutting off all escape routes like sawarabi no mai. however poison is a bonus
> 
> poison> surprise attack



I agree that Satetsu's poison makes it offensively superior, I'm merely pointing out the ways in which Sawarabi no Mai is somewhat better, like for defense, stealth, and control of the terrain.​


Icegaze said:


> outmatched in speed or skill? by feats we have asuma reacting to kisame and kimimaro being countered by rock lee. kisame shits on rock lee hard in cqc even



We've never seen drunk Lee again, but he was hyped to knock out Gai, which says enough. Kimimaro's stats (5 tai, 4.5 speed) back up the fact that drunk Lee was a beast as well.​


Icegaze said:


> in any case who am I kidding I mostly agree with what ur saying, just the ranking seems too much for someone who even sick and dying took more than 2 seconds to dispatch lee



Sick Kimimaro I said was Low Kage. A healthy Kimimaro that can camp in Sawarabi no Mai for prolonged amounts of time would be a nightmare of a Mid Kage. Especially when you remember P1 scaling.​


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I agree that Satetsu's poison makes it offensively superior, I'm merely pointing out the ways in which Sawarabi no Mai is somewhat better, like for defense, stealth, and control of the terrain.​



agreed. so why do so few see it. the way we do?



> We've never seen drunk Lee again, but he was hyped to knock out Gai, which says enough. Kimimaro's stats (5 tai, 4.5 speed) back up the fact that drunk Lee was a beast as well.​



well drunk lee was a beast true. but nothing compared to sober kisame.



> Sick Kimimaro I said was Low Kage. A healthy Kimimaro that can camp in Sawarabi no Mai for prolonged amounts of time would be a nightmare of a Mid Kage. Especially when you remember P1 scaling.​


[/QUOTE]

well it depends on how u define low kage. I say Mei beats him, so he cant be low kage or even mid kage

him being healthy would improve his physical stat and prevent him from dying. it shouldn't however improve his jutsu. not that it needs improvement 

but I don't see how bone forest defeats Mei. I used to, but not anymore


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> care to share why cuz I don't see how her abilities stack up against iron sand,



She has suiton to repel iron sand projectiles - I believe her reaction speed against Madara's katons was enough proof to suggest that she could react to Satetsu. Futon melts the Sandaime in the meantime, while she defends herself.



> or 5 elemental jutsu+ diamond hard staff+ theoretical knowledge of all jutsu in konoha



Mei has access to four elemental styles, on top of two Kekkei Genkai. Hiruzen isn't really out-diversifying her with just his one extra basic element. He would surpass her if his stamina was higher imo, because then he could spam Kage Bunshin, but he can't, as we saw in his fight with Orochimaru. Mei can cloud his vision with the Hidden Mist, and even if Hiruzen can smell her/sense her, she can put him down with Futon before he can kill her. His diamond hard staff can't help him against corrosive mist, and no basic Konoha jutsu should be very useful in that situation either.



> or gold dust. she could melt it but rasa got more sand than she does lava or acid mist



Mei's suiton are high-powered, very wide AoE and fast. If Rasa tries to catch her with gold, she should be able to blast it away with large suitons. There's also her Hidden Mist to blind him and his Third Eye. Additionally, unless he camps inside a sphere of gold dust for the entire match, he will be melted by Futon sooner or later.



> if lee was as strong as gai or even close his limit wont be 6th gate. yet it is
> 
> that shows their base forms are hugely different



No it doesn't, it simply shows that Gai has more skill and practice with the Eight Gates than Lee, and therefore that his tolerance for pain is higher too. It says nothing for his skill in normal close quarters taijutsu though, which Lee should rival, if not match him in. Lee has a 5/5 in taijutsu after all, and his speed was already at 4.5 at the beginning of Part II.



> he is significantly weaker, in strength, experience , speed



Lee has a 5/5 in taijutsu just as Gai does, and by the end of the war arc he should have increases in physical strength and speed too. He should have 5s in all three of those stats. The only other stat that matters to their fighting style is stamina, which I admit Gai is better at, being able to fight for hours on end and go and in and out of the gates. But Lee still has a 3.5 in stamina, and that was at the beginning of Part II when he could only access the fifth gate. By the war he can enter the sixth, meaning his stamina obviously increased.

Lee might be less experienced but, given their fighting styles, I don't think battle experience and a wide knowledge of different jutsu is overly important. 



> so even powering up to 6th he would still be weaker than gai
> 
> unless of course u think goten in SSJ1= goku in SSJ1
> 
> and yes I am assuming u watched DBZ



Lee might not be able to sustain the sixth gate for as long as Gai, and he might not be able to use Asa Kujaku either (he probably can though), but other than that, he should be about as strong as him.​​


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## Icegaze (Aug 31, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> She has suiton to repel iron sand projectiles - I believe her reaction speed against Madara's katons was enough proof to suggest that she could react to Satetsu. Futon melts the Sandaime in the meantime, while she defends herself.​




suiton repelling sand projectiles. not sure how u figure that would work but since I have no feats for nor do u have suggesting iron sand would fail, I guess we cant really say 


however she cant be defending herself with suiton while using futon. that much we know..its one then the other. however once iron sand is out, he can shape it to his liking giving him an attack speed advantage



> Mei has access to four elemental styles, on top of two Kekkei Genkai. Hiruzen isn't really out-diversifying her with just his one extra basic element. He would surpass her if his stamina was higher imo, because then he could spam Kage Bunshin, but he can't, as we saw in his fight with Orochimaru. Mei can cloud his vision with the Hidden Mist, and even if Hiruzen can smell her/sense her, she can put him down with Futon before he can kill her. His diamond hard staff can't help him against corrosive mist, and no basic Konoha jutsu should be very useful in that situation either.



fair enough. however fuma shiruken kage bunshin no jutsu followed with melee attacks should keep things in his favour 

considering mei doesn't have anything to suggest she is decent in cqc



> Mei's suiton are high-powered, very wide AoE and fast. If Rasa tries to catch her with gold, she should be able to blast it away with large suitons. There's also her Hidden Mist to blind him and his Third Eye. Additionally, unless he camps inside a sphere of gold dust for the entire match, he will be melted by Futon sooner or later.



rasa would use sand to sense her easily. blinding rasa wont do anything 

I am interested in polling this. considering rasa gold dust by feats in kishi manga has a vastly larger AoE than anything Mei has shown



> No it doesn't, it simply shows that Gai has more skill and practice with the Eight Gates than Lee, and therefore that his tolerance for pain is higher too. It says nothing for his skill in normal close quarters taijutsu though, which Lee should rival, if not match him in. Lee has a 5/5 in taijutsu after all, and his speed was already at 4.5 at the beginning of Part II.


 
gai has better feats. come at me when u got something that suggests different




> Lee has a 5/5 in taijutsu just as Gai does, and by the end of the war arc he should have increases in physical strength and speed too. He should have 5s in all three of those stats. The only other stat that matters to their fighting style is stamina, which I admit Gai is better at, being able to fight for hours on end and go and in and out of the gates. But Lee still has a 3.5 in stamina, and that was at the beginning of Part II when he could only access the fifth gate. By the war he can enter the sixth, meaning his stamina obviously increased.



see above 



> Lee might be less experienced but, given their fighting styles, I don't think battle experience and a wide knowledge of different jutsu is overly important.



kishi does. seeing the gap in their abilities portrayed in kishi manga



> Lee might not be able to sustain the sixth gate for as long as Gai, and he might not be able to use Asa Kujaku either (he probably can though), but other than that, he should be about as strong as him.


​
feats suggest otherwise. considering base gai can break boulders, something base lee wasn't implied to be able to do


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## DaVizWiz (Aug 31, 2015)

Two KG, Massive high-speed Suitons, surviving against V3 Susano Mokuton Rinnegan Madara Clones for extended period = not Mid Kage

Mei has weakest kage feats on panel? What manga are you reading bro? 

And where did you get the presumption that Iron Sand is superior to her Suitons in speed? 

Chiyo reacted to it with a chakra shield and puppet movement, she was reacting to it while controlling Sakura with one arm maneuvering her out of the way and punching the shit out of it, and then she completely dodged it's expansion with limited space to maneuver in a cave to the outside.

Don't tell me you're basing it's speed off the fact that Drizzle made air distortions?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Aug 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> suiton repelling sand projectiles. not sure how u figure that would work but since I have no feats for nor do u have suggesting iron sand would fail, I guess we cant really say



Satetsu bullets and projectiles can be smacked away by Mei's suitons .. so that would work quite simply. For larger spheres and solid objects, like the ones Sakura was punching, Mei's larger AOE suitons should be equally as effective at pushing Satetsu attacks away. World Order is her biggest threat, but then again, the iron sand might be melted in a potent enough Futon mist.




> however she cant be defending herself with suiton while using futon. that much we know..its one then the other. however once iron sand is out, he can shape it to his liking giving him an attack speed advantage



If she uses Futon first, it will linger on the battlefield, allowing her to freely use suitons afterwards.



> fair enough. however fuma shiruken kage bunshin no jutsu followed with melee attacks should keep things in his favour



Mei will laugh at shuriken with large suitons to blast them away. 



> considering mei doesn't have anything to suggest she is decent in cqc



A Jounin has to be above average in ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu to qualify for the position, and Mei is above Jounin level. I'd be surprised if she possessed anything short of a 3.5/5 in taijutsu. That's about as good as Orochimaru, who could at least defend himself in close quarters against Hiruzen.




> rasa would use sand to sense her easily.



Does Rasa even have sensor sand?



> I am interested in polling this. considering rasa gold dust by feats in kishi manga has a vastly larger AoE than anything Mei has shown



Did he? _This_ was the largest amount he ever controlled at one time. Mei created similar AOE attacks when she extinguished Madara's huge katon and pushed him into the air.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason Rasa managed to manipulate such large volumes of gold dust is because he mixed it in with pre-existing sand. He could then manipulate the sand because the gold dust was mixed in with it. He was lucky enough to live in a village where sand surrounded him so he could employ this tactic often, and it made him useful in stopping the One-Tail's attacks .. but what if he's fighting Mei in an area where there isn't any sand?

In that case, surely his Jiton will only be effective in working _like_ _this_. In which case, as long as Mei isn't touched, she should be fine.




> gai has better feats. come at me when u got something that suggests different



Meh. Gai has had more screen time and fights in Part II. Lee kept pace with him in the War Arc while they were fighting the Seven Swordsmen, and if his speed increased as much as his stamina did, then I see no reason why the gap between Base Gai an Base Lee should be as big as you'r suggesting.



> feats suggest otherwise. considering base gai can break boulders, something base lee wasn't implied to be able to do



Base Lee was pulling giant roots of trees out of the ground when he was just a Genin in the Chuunin exam, and his strength increased enormously over the timeskip. Kakuzu, who possesses less physical strength than Lee does, was able to kick Kakashi so hard that he flew into a giant tree and _blew a large hole in it_. It probably would have sustained even more damage had Kakuzu kicked the tree directly.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Two KG, Massive high-speed Suitons, surviving against V3 Susano Mokuton Rinnegan Madara Clones for extended period = not Mid Kage
> 
> Mei has weakest kage feats on panel? What manga are you reading bro?
> 
> ...




when iron sand got the sonic booms that follow it and also when iron sand is the one with speed hype as per DB

sorry who failed to react to Mei water dragon again? madara was the only one it was used against 

Her lava was evaded by Karin who gets taken out by a single kick from danzo, now what proof do u have her suiton is faster than her lava?


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Satetsu bullets and projectiles can be smacked away by Mei's suitons .. so that would work quite simply. For larger spheres and solid objects, like the ones Sakura was punching, Mei's larger AOE suitons should be equally as effective at pushing Satetsu attacks away. World Order is her biggest threat, but then again, the iron sand might be melted in a potent enough Futon mist.​




u would have to prove that. no feats it can




> If she uses Futon first, it will linger on the battlefield, allowing her to freely use suitons afterwards.



odd we haven't seen how it works in open space. maybe it doesn't linger very long



> Mei will laugh at shuriken with large suitons to blast them away.



odd if it was so fodder I don't think hiruzen would have attempted such against jubito 
again no feats her suiton can laugh them off




> A Jounin has to be above average in ninjutsu, taijutsu and genjutsu to qualify for the position, and Mei is above Jounin level. I'd be surprised if she possessed anything short of a 3.5/5 in taijutsu. That's about as good as Orochimaru, who could at least defend himself in close quarters against Hiruzen.



hiruzen outdid oro in cqc. oro got much better feats and body which aids in cqc ability. Mei gets smaked in cqc. also hiruzen pushed back kyuubi with enma. Mei stands no chance in cqc




> Does Rasa even have sensor sand?



 gaara doesn't have sensor sand. he uses the sand to physically sense the enemy. rasa can do the same. its a physical sensing ability. not like the sand becomes particularly sensor in nature



> Did he? _This_ was the largest amount he ever controlled at one time. Mei created similar AOE attacks when she extinguished Madara's huge katon and pushed him into the air.



well rasa by hype controls enough to slow down a bijuu. so if u think that little size is all it takes to slow down shukaku u would need to explain why



> Also, correct me if I'm wrong, but the reason Rasa managed to manipulate such large volumes of gold dust is because he mixed it in with pre-existing sand. He could then manipulate the sand because the gold dust was mixed in with it. He was lucky enough to live in a village where sand surrounded him so he could employ this tactic often, and it made him useful in stopping the One-Tail's attacks .. but what if he's fighting Mei in an area where there isn't any sand?



scans of anyone suggesting he mixed it with pre exisiting sand. then again considering all terrains bar water have sand on them. shouldn't be an issue. considering the scale of sasuke retrieval arc gaara sand, rasa should easily be able to make that much. unless part 1 gaara>>>>>>>>>>rasa. that u would need to prove. considering rasa could stop shukaku. type advantage yes. but u cant tell me heavy gold sand much much smaller in scale than what shukaku can make is enough to stop it. lets use some logic here

btw part 1 gaara sand tsunami is larger than all of Mei jutsu. 




> In that case, surely his Jiton will only be effective in working _like_ _this_. In which case, as long as Mei isn't touched, she should be fine.


 
??. why wont Mei be touched. can she evade gaara sand? last I checked gaara beat his dad due to emotional BS and PIS 



> Meh. Gai has had more screen time and fights in Part II. Lee kept pace with him in the War Arc while they were fighting the Seven Swordsmen, and if his speed increased as much as his stamina did, then I see no reason why the gap between Base Gai an Base Lee should be as big as you'r suggesting.



gai>>>>>>>lee I don't see the pointless debate. would be like saying neji is close to hiashi

its just as silly 




> Base Lee was pulling giant roots of trees out of the ground when he was just a Genin in the Chuunin exam, and his strength increased enormously over the timeskip. Kakuzu, who possesses less physical strength than Lee does, was able to kick Kakashi so hard that he flew into a giant tree and _blew a large hole in it_. It probably would have sustained even more damage had Kakuzu kicked the tree directly.


​
pointless debate see above.


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## Mercurial (Sep 1, 2015)

Icegaze is soloing the debate so hard. I love how people bring databook stats still in 2015


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## Amol (Sep 1, 2015)

This thread reminded me how fucked up power levels are in Naruto.
Everybody was as strong as plot demanded them to be.
On some more important point.
Ino shintenshin's Haku before he even manages to think.
KN0 Naruto's speed was too much for Haku.


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## Pirao (Sep 1, 2015)

It's funny when you look back now at old threads when people where saying part 2 Naruto was not Jounin level, like fodder jounin's possesed some mythical level of skill or something 

Case in point: 

Butterfly Chouji not jounin level


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## Matty (Sep 1, 2015)

I agree with Kimi at least being Low Kage when healthy. Taijutsu, Bone Defense, Bone Forest, CS2... The dude was a stud. But I am not so sure I would put him at Mid Kage


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Icegaze is soloing the debate so hard. I love how people bring databook stats still in 2015




thanks if you not being sarcastic


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when iron sand got the sonic booms that follow it and also when iron sand is the one with speed hype as per DB
> 
> sorry who failed to react to Mei water dragon again? madara was the only one it was used against
> 
> Her lava was evaded by Karin who gets taken out by a single kick from danzo, now what proof do u have her suiton is faster than her lava?


5th Gated Lee made sonic booms in Part 1, you consistently belittle his speed even as a War-arc version with TSB level-feats. 

You are a hypocrite.

Madara was hit with it- twice. In other words, every time she used the dragon- it hit Madara without reaction. 

As I thought, your only argument is sonic booms, which mean absolutely nothing. RSM Naruto didn't make sonic booms, anyone Jounin and above can and have been argued as faster than the speed of sound- none of them make sonic booms.

Chiyo reacted to it with her foot speed, puppet movement, and chakra shielding. She was clearly superior to it in speed.


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## Reznor (Sep 1, 2015)

Guys, stop acting like Haku is remotely consistent


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## ARGUS (Sep 1, 2015)

> Sasuke(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2)


Wave Arc - High Genin 
Chuunin Exams - Mid Chuunin 
VOTE - Jonin 
Start of Part 2 - Elite Jonin/Low Kage  


> Naruto(Wave Arc, Chunin Exams, VotE, Start of Part 2 with KN1 and up restricted)


Wave Arc - Mid Genin 
Chuunin Exams - High Chuunin 
VOTE - Jonin 
Start of Part 2 - Jonin 


> Neji(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)


CE - High Chuunin 
SRA - High Chuunin 
Start of Part 2 - Jonin 


> Kiba(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)


CE - Low Chuunin 
SRA - Mid Chuunin 
Start of Part 2 - High Chuunin 


> Gaara(Chunin Exams, SRA, Start of Part 2)


CE - Jonin 
SRA - Jonin 
Start of Part 2 - Kage 


> Shikamaru(Chunin Exams, SRA, Immortals Arc)


CE - Mid Chuunin 
SRA - Mid Chuunin 
Immortals Arc - Elite jonin 


> Ino(Chunin Exams, Immortals Arc, War Arc)


CE - Mid Genin 
Immortals - Chuunin 
War Arc - Jonin 


> Lee(Chunin Exams, SRA, War Arc)


CE - High Chuunin 
SRA - Jonin 
War arc - Elite Jonin/Low kage 


> Sound 4 Members


All of them are jonin level 


> Kimimaro(Gaara fight)


Elite Jonin/Low kage 


> Gaiden Kakashi(Original Eyes, Sharingan)


Jonin 


> Gaiden Obito(Sharingan)


mid chuunin  


> Haku


High chuunin


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> 5th Gated Lee made sonic booms in Part 1, you consistently belittle his speed even as a War-arc version with TSB level-feats.
> 
> You are a hypocrite.
> 
> ...



 
iron sand is hyped his speed sadly isn't 

madara was hit once, try harder 

so suiton has no hype or speed feats. hitting an enemy in the air hardly counts as a speed feat considering said enemy doesn't have freedom of movement 

so whats ur argument I like Mei so bla bla bla?

scans of said sonic booms from lee though. please do share..only seen those with susanoo arrows and iron sand. clearly iron sand is slower by feats but both share that trait


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2015)

> iron sand is hyped his speed sadly isn't


It's doesn't have speed hype.. like, at all... it's hype is it's ability to transform into any weapon. [1]

This is Chiyo reacting to it [1] [2]

A second time (with the mini-sonic booms) [1] [3]

A third time [1] [2]

A fourth time [1]

Early PT.1 Base Sakura reacting herself [1]

A fifth time [1] [2]



> madara was hit once, try harder


He was hit twice, the second time had lightning and sand infused into it. 



> so suiton has no hype or speed feats. hitting an enemy in the air hardly counts as a speed feat considering said enemy doesn't have freedom of movement


Hitting Madara twice is a speed feat.

Do you understand what a feat is?

Do you understand who Madara is?



> so whats ur argument I like Mei so bla bla bla?


What's your argument? Mei hitting Madara twice with her Suitons is an indication she's weak?

Lmao  



> scans of said sonic booms from lee though. please do share..only seen those with susanoo arrows and iron sand. clearly iron sand is slower by feats but both share that trait


[1] [2] [3]

Granted this is partially his physical power, it is also his speed that allows him to create multiple air distortions simultaneously by hitting Gaara a second, third, and fourth time before the first boom disperses clearly proving his speed is faster than sound

This is the same guy you argue isn't very fast.

So choose now.. 

Sonic booms = very fast

Or 

Sonic booms = not very fast

Lee = very fast
Iron Sand = very fast

Or 

Lee= not very fast
Iron Sand= not very fast

You don't get to have it both ways

Either way, as I've said, the fastest ninja in the verse do not create sonic booms (V2 Ei, V2 Bee, RSM Naruto, Sasuke, etc.), so your point is moot.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > It's doesn't have speed hype.. it's hype is it's ability to transform into any weapon. [1]
> ...


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

though tbh am not sure how on earth this debate turned into arguing about Mei water dragon speed. 
and why that matters in relation to iron sand. never even said iron sand would somehow outspeed it. 

however nothing suggests water dragon would simply repel it. especially the satetsu kesshu forms


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 1, 2015)

> never implied it was impossible to react to . so don't get the bla bla here


You're arguing it's faster than her suitons... without any proof 



> he wasn't trying to avoid it. he was in the air. second time he tried to absorb it


There's absolutely nothing that supports he didn't want to avoid it. In fact, he outright admitted that he was actively competing with them when Tsunade questioned why he used a bunshin against them.

In the air is irrelevant, he couldn't react either time.

The second time he did try to absorb it- and it failed- because the water dragon (with lightning infused into it) already hit him, nullifying his body.

It _already hit him_. 



> see above. if am not trying to avoid it. an attack can be slow as hell and still hit. also madara was in the air


His position is irrelevant, he didn't have to dodge, you can still use Ninjusu while in the air (Jukai Koutan, Wood Dragon, increase the size of Susano, Susano arms to punch the water away, etc.)

He simply failed to react altogether. 



> So in the end Mei hits someone in the air who on first occasion
> 
> 1) was in the air therefore couldn't dodge and didn't need to due to susanoo
> 2) was in the air again therefore couldn't dodge and didn't need to or so he thought due to preta


Position of the body is irrelevant, he had multiple options with Ninjutsu to disallow his Susano from being taken and his body from being hit with the dragon (second time). 



> so how on earth is that a speed feat. I guess KN1 lee did blitz madara who didn't try to block or dodge him


Because the dragon hit him before he could do anything?

What the fuck man.. 



> or MS sasuke blitz A when he uses his chidori sword on his back, or mei lava blitz sasuke when he used rib cage to block yet somehow Karin could jump away


Dude, why do you always bring completely irrelevant feats into a debate?

Tired, no-knowledge Sasuke being hit with Lava Release in close quarters- when he didn't give a shit about being hit by the combined attacks of Gaara, Darui, Kankuro and Temari previously mean nothing. 

He was hit by Chojuro directly afterward as well. 

Once he brought out Susano he didn't give a shit about avoiding attacks, he literally stated a moment prior that it was the ultimate defense (even better than Gaara's). 

Can you prove Madara didn't care about being hit by Flood Dragon twice?

I don't think you can.

>Actively avoided/absorbed Jinton
>Blocked Ei
>Actively avoided Lava Release
>Avoided being hit by Tsunade a second time by using a Bunshin
>Used Mokuton against Earth Golem


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

> DaVizWiz said:
> 
> 
> > You're arguing it's faster than her suitons... without any proof
> ...


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## Mercurial (Sep 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> thanks if you not being sarcastic



I'm not. You are actually soloing by bringing actual manga facts against arguments based on inconsistend databook stats that are inconsistely compared when they are inconsistent in first place and are used to create fanfiction scenarios.


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## Icegaze (Sep 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I'm not. You are actually soloing by bringing actual manga facts against arguments based on inconsistend databook stats that are inconsistely compared when they are inconsistent in first place and are used to create fanfiction scenarios.



thanks do input on my sasori vs mei thread

I actually want to know how those polls end up.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u would have to prove that. no feats it can



I don't see why I would need to prove that. Mei's water dragon inflicts physical damage, and is described as a technique that possesses "formidable might". It was a technique Tobirama relied on to attack Hiruzen, and one that Zabuza was convinced could injure Kakashi. It clearly packs quite a punch. Enough to knock away Sasori's bullet-form Satetsu Arare, which only managed to make a few small holes in a rock wall [1] Larger or more powerful Satetsu forms (like Satetsu Kaihou) probably can't be repelled in the same way, but then Mei has a Hidden Mist to stop the Sandaime Kazekage targeting her with those, if it comes down to it.




> odd we haven't seen how it works in open space. maybe it doesn't linger very long



Why wouldn't it linger very long? Its a mist.



> odd if it was so fodder I don't think hiruzen would have attempted such against jubito



Hiruzen was only trying to figure out Obito's abilities - he knew his shuriken weren't going to do very much, if any damage.



> again no feats her suiton can laugh them off



I think it is blatantly obvious that a giant suiton is going to push away some shuriken. If you need clarification of that, look at Zaku's Air Cutter blasting away Sakura's shuriken, or better yet, Kakashi's Suiton repelling Itachi's shuriken. Hiruzen's shuriken might be bigger, but Mei's suiton are still considerably larger than those.




> hiruzen outdid oro in cqc. oro got much better feats and body which aids in cqc ability. Mei gets smaked in cqc. also hiruzen pushed back kyuubi with enma. Mei stands no chance in cqc


 
I don't deny that Mei would be defeated in a straight CQC match, but you act like Hiruzen is going to rush in, smack her immediately and then be done with it. She isn't that defenceless. Orochimaru defended himself for a while before he was disarmed, and Hiruzen could very well be fighting Mei blinded inside of a Hidden Mist, so he'll be relying sheerly on smell, which we know he can do, but _less effectively_ than by sight. Mei can _spit lava globs in CQC_ too, so he's probably going to get hit by those, just like he was hit by Hashirama and Tobirama when blinded.




> gaara doesn't have sensor sand. he uses the sand to physically sense the enemy. rasa can do the same. its a physical sensing ability. not like the sand becomes particularly sensor in nature



Its a technique, called _Sensa Kaibyō_. Rasa never used it, only Gaara did. Rasa _might_ be able to use it, but you don't know that, you'd only be baselessly assuming that he does.



> well rasa by hype controls enough to slow down a bijuu. so if u think that little size is all it takes to slow down shukaku u would need to explain why



He mixed his gold dust into Shukaku's sand body, true. That only means that he can _generate_ that much gold dust though, we've no idea if he can manipulate all of it at once. 



> scans of anyone suggesting he mixed it with pre exisiting sand.



He blatantly _told us_ himself. Also, if you look at Rasa's battle with Gaara, you can see that all of his Gold Dust is _coming out of the sand below him_ ie. he was using the gold dust he had already pre-mixed with the sand at the beginning of the battle. He doesn't seem to be like the Sandaime Kazekage, who could generate Iron Sand from his body and use it as a weapon by itself.



> then again considering all terrains bar water have sand on them. shouldn't be an issue. considering the scale of sasuke retrieval arc gaara sand, rasa should easily be able to make that much.  unless part 1 gaara>>>>>>>>>>rasa. that u would need to prove. considering rasa could stop shukaku. type advantage yes. but u cant tell me heavy gold sand much much smaller in scale than what shukaku can make is enough to stop it. lets use some logic here



Gaara is the one who can manipulate sand, not Rasa. The reason Gaara could summon as much sand from the ground as he did during his match with Kimimaro, is because he has the ability to break earth down into sand. Rasa does not have that ability, so unless he was fighting in a desert/an area with lots of pre-existing sand, he can't use his gold dust in that way.



> ??. why wont Mei be touched. can she evade gaara sand? last I checked gaara beat his dad due to emotional BS and PIS



If Rasa isn't fighting her in a desert, then she isn't going to need to evade sand, because Rasa can't attack her with sand unless its already on the battlefield for him to mix his gold dust into. 



> gai>>>>>>>lee I don't see the pointless debate. would be like saying neji is close to hiashi



Neji is close to Hiashi.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 4, 2015)

neji is close to hiashi yet couldn't deflect basic moukton projectiles while hiashi slapped away the arm creating them 

also note hiashi clearly said Their air palm wont be enough he said nothing of his own 

then we have them using kaiten to deflect moukuton spikes before that and only neji is struggling saying he cant spin fast enough. hiash was just fine there

the difference is clear through feats. 

odd despite all ur statements on water dragon u cant provide a single feat of it doing damage to anyone at all 

u suggest rasa cant use sensing sand because he doesn't have the feats to do it, yet suggest water dragon is capable of doing things it clearly wasn't shown to do. Since it couldn't damage anyone despite being used multiple times

double standard much?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> neji is close to hiashi yet couldn't deflect basic moukton projectiles while hiashi slapped away the arm creating them



Hinata was reflecting mokuton projectiles with Air Palm, so obviously Neji could do the same. He just didn't have time - neither did Hiashi, for that matter. Hiashi used a double palmed Air Wall to reflect the Juubi arm too, not a single-handed Air Palm. That being said, Neji is probably still weaker than Hiashi, but only marginally. 



> then we have them using kaiten to deflect moukuton spikes before that and only neji is struggling saying he cant spin fast enough. hiash was just fine there



Didn't Neji repel Juubi arms with Hiashi earlier on just fine? And I'm pretty sure Juubi arms > mokuton projectiles. As for Hiashi, we never saw how he fared with the mokuton projectiles' speed, he may have struggled just as much as Neji, but it was never shown, so we'll never know.



> odd despite all ur statements on water dragon u cant provide a single feat of it doing damage to anyone at all



Water Dragon has never hit anyone on-panel, so obviously I can't provide a feat of it doing damage. That doesn't mean that it doesn't, whenever its sole purpose as a technique is to _damage the opponent_. 



> u suggest rasa cant use sensing sand because he doesn't have the feats to do it, yet suggest water dragon is capable of doing things it clearly wasn't shown to do. Since it couldn't damage anyone despite being used multiple times
> 
> double standard much?



It would be a double standard if Mei had never used the Suiryuudan on panel, and I argued that she could use it despite there being absolutely no indication that she could. Which is essentially what you're trying to argue with Rasa and his sand sensing.

I'm arguing that a giant, high-powered suiton(as it was accredited in the databook) which was used by multiple Kage-levels in multiple Kage-level battles, which has enough power to blast rock off of Hiruzen's giant Earth Wall and launch Madara's Susano'o about a hundred feet into the air, packs enough of a punch to redirect some Satetsu bullets with only enough power to put some small, shallow holes in a rock face.

That is not unreasonable, and has a lot more merit than Rasa randomly being able to sense, whenever he couldn't do it/never attempted to do it before.​​


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

Madara tanked attacks from V1 Ei, and his Rib-cage Susano'o took attacks from a V2 Ei whose power had been increased by Onoki. Ei's physical strength > Suiryuudan's, so obviously it wasn't going to do much damage, that doesn't mean that it _can't_ inflict damage. Your comparison fails.

The suiton that Kakashi hit Zabuza with left the latter drowning, wincing and had enough force to smash him into a tree, which clearly injured him, albeit not critically. Anyway, the Suiryuudan has been used in two Kage-level battles, while the Daibakufu was used only once by a less prodigous suiton user (Mei and Tobirama are more talented with suiton than Zabuza) in a Jonin-level battle. Take from that what you will.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Madara tanked attacks from V1 Ei, and his Rib-cage Susano'o took attacks from a V2 Ei whose power had been increased by Onoki. Ei's physical strength > Suiryuudan's, so obviously it wasn't going to do much damage, that doesn't mean that it _can't_ inflict damage. Your comparison fails.
> 
> The suiton that Kakashi hit Zabuza with left the latter drowning, wincing and had enough force to smash him into a tree, which clearly injured him, albeit not critically. Anyway, the Suiryuudan has been used in two Kage-level battles, while the Daibakufu was used only once by a less prodigous suiton user (Mei and Tobirama are more talented with suiton than Zabuza) in a Jonin-level battle. Take from that what you will.​​



ok so what proof do u have that it would do enough damage to kill or injure anyone if it hit directly?

yh smashed him so hard into a tree kakashi felt he needed to follow the attack with kunai to keep zabuza down right

katon great fire ball has also been used in kage level battles. yet that's not about to kill any decent ninja 

because a technique is used in a certain battle level doesn't mean much

what did it do in those battles? nothing its a stall technique...would be as silly as saying itachi beats any named character above jounin level with 1 katon or even does enough to put them down 

oh btw double standards much again...fuma shiruken kage bunshin no jutsu was used in a god level battle and used in a kage level battle 

so by that logic it should certainly overpower Mei jutsu no?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

I'm not arguing that Suiryuudan would kill anyone, just that it has enough power to overpower and redirect small Satetsu bullets. Great Fireball Jutsu has the potential to inflict a lot of damage, even in Kage-level battles, so its no surprise that it was used so often.

And no.. again, that isn't a double standard. Hiruzen's giant shuriken have the potential to inflict critical damage, so obviously he would use them in a Kage-level battle. But the context of that situation was vastly different to the one where Mei/Tobirama used the Suiryuudan. In Hiruzen's battle, he threw those shuriken while perfectly aware that Obito would come out unharmed - he simply wanted to know more about his abilities. In Mei and Tobirama's situation, they outright knew that their attacks could maim or be of use offensively.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> I'm not arguing that Suiryuudan would kill anyone, just that it has enough power to overpower and redirect small Satetsu bullets. Great Fireball Jutsu has the potential to inflict a lot of damage, even in Kage-level battles, so its no surprise that it was used so often.
> 
> And no.. again, that isn't a double standard. Hiruzen's giant shuriken have the potential to inflict critical damage, so obviously he would use them in a Kage-level battle. But the context of that situation was vastly different to the one where Mei/Tobirama used the Suiryuudan. In Hiruzen's battle, he threw those shuriken while perfectly aware that Obito would come out unharmed - he simply wanted to know more about his abilities. In Mei and Tobirama's situation, they outright knew that their attacks could maim or be of use offensively.​​



oh kk. yh sure it does. it will deflect the small ones however I doubt the larger ones can be deflected 

well despite being used so often it never really did anything did it?

Mei used water dragon against madara in susanoo are u saying she was hoping she could overcome his defence with that???? when her lava jutsu previously failed?

It was simply to push him towards A and onoki attack which is the best she could have hoped for

Tobirama only used it as an ET under orochimaru instructions who wsnt tying to kill old hiruzen

someone having memory lapses here?


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> oh kk. yh sure it does. it will deflect the small ones however I doubt the larger ones can be deflected



Have you actually been reading my posts in their entirety then? Because I made it explicitly clear in all of them that this is what I'm arguing. I don't know why it took you so long to grasp this. 



> well despite being used so often it never really did anything did it?



Yet its still a big ball of scorching fire, so it will obviously burn the shit out of whoever it touches.



> Mei used water dragon against madara in susanoo are u saying she was hoping she could overcome his defence with that???? when her lava jutsu previously failed?



Obviously not, no.



> It was simply to push him towards A and onoki attack which is the best she could have hoped for



Which gave it use in combat.



> Tobirama only used it as an ET under orochimaru instructions who wsnt tying to kill old hiruzen



It was still used with intent to maim. At the end of the day, if Suiryuudan inflicts as little damage as you suggest, Hiruzen wouldn't have wasted chakra summoning a massive, dense earth wall to block it. 



> someone having memory lapses here?



No.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Hiruzen was old and frail maybe he was scared being knocked back a little would hurt him or impede his ability to counter attack hence the wall 

Scorching fire sure , hidan got hit by a stronger tech so did naruto and sasuke point blank they were fine after it though 

so we agree water dragon use in combat is to push people back . Good , that's what I think it does


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Hiruzen was old and frail maybe he was scared being knocked back a little *would hurt him* or impede his ability to counter attack hence the wall



Concession accepted, then.



> Scorching fire sure , hidan got hit by a stronger tech so did naruto and sasuke point blank they were fine after it though



Hidan is immortal, but his body got burned badly when he was hit by Asuma's Ash Cloud. I don't remember Naruto and Sasuke being hit by fire, but I'm certain that unless they were using Kurama's chakra/Orochimaru's snake power/Susano'o, they were burned.



> so we agree water dragon use in combat is to push people back . Good , that's what I think it does



As well as damage, as the databook and manga made 100% clear. See previous 2 pages of posts for explanations on why.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

Then read the manga 
Madara used a Katon point blank against them and they were majorly unharmed 


Damage level is what is questionable . Konohamaru punch does damage how much and to who is the variable 

Which is what am putting into question . Can Mei kill fodder with it sure 

Can she do anything to sasori with it . Nothing suggests it


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

I have obviously read the manga. Scans of the instance you're talking about. -snip-

And that was never what I was arguing. Mei can't kill Sasori with just suiton, so you're arguing with yourself on that one.​​


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## Icegaze (Sep 5, 2015)

when in Konoha


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 5, 2015)

*Translation:*  Fire Release: Hiding in Ash and Dust Technique

*Trivia:*
In the manga the technique is apparently made ​​up of ash, whereas in the anime small flames surround the technique.

Seems more like the uncomfortable katon version of hidden mist than a kill technique.  A smokescreen.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Sep 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> when in Konoha





And with that, I take my leave of this thread. -snip-​​


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

> so we agree water dragon use in combat is to push people back . Good , that's what I think it does


A suiton of that level would have no issue destroying Sasori or any of his puppets.

I suggest you take a physics class or go to your friendly neighborhood firehouse and ask them about the power of concentrated water.

And before you bring up Zabuza's tanking feat, be fully aware that Mei's Suiton is larger & faster, unlike Kakashi's linear landscape washing suiton, is guided (which means Sasori is slammed into everything in the landscape repeatedly, he's not just hit with water spilling forward at him), and that Sasori is not Zabuza, whom which the tanking feat belongs to, not to say that it can even be considered a tanking feat, he didn't even display the ability to move his body after being hit with it because he was paralyzed by Haku playing good guy right afterward.


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## Icegaze (Sep 6, 2015)

Lol that burns yet no significant damage 
He gets up cool after 
Sasuke didn't even comment on the technique that's how irrelevant it was 

Lol so no scans suiton of that level can destroy puppets davizwiz u must be an idiot if u think physics is required to read naruto


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