# Sasuke vs Nagato



## ueharakk (Nov 7, 2013)

Location: Madara vs Gokage
Mindset: IC going for the kill
Knowledge: both have naruto's knowledge on each other's abilities on top of their own manga knowledge
Distance: 100 meters
Conditions:
- Nagato is non-edo prime state after he absorbed the hachibi's chakra
- Nagato can summon, control and fight alongside Gedo mazou
- Gedo mazou is powered by 7/9 tailed beasts


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## Katou (Nov 7, 2013)

Sasuke Dies. . . Mid Difficulty


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## kaminogan (Nov 7, 2013)

^ he's so strong that its difficult for him to kill himself,


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## Katou (Nov 7, 2013)

is that so  

maybe


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## Ersa (Nov 7, 2013)

Sasuke is superior to Nagato at this point in the manga I feel.

CST can be tanked via Perfect Susanoo, Chibaku Tensei core can be bust with PS Enton arrows (which he should have) or a few Perfect Susanoo Enton-powered slashes. Considering Preta Path took time to absorb a mere Odama Rasengan, absorbing a chakra construct literally hundred of times bigger will take time. Gedo Mazo can be socked with Perfect Susanoo, if Hachibi manages to pound the crap of the thing I don't see why a PS slash won't knock it over for a bit considering Hachibi does not have mountain slicing power/punches. Asura Missiles are useless before final Susanoo let alone PS. Add on the fact that Sasuke should also have Yata/Totsuka, Tsukiyomi and I don't see how he loses here. Nagato puts up a hell of a fight but PS renders most of his arsenal moot.

EMS Sasuke, mid-high difficulty.


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## pato454 (Nov 8, 2013)

without gedo, nagato wins mid-high diff

with gedo, nagato rapes PS Sasuke


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## rubberguy (Nov 8, 2013)

Sasuke's ps lacks feat maybe if he is allowed madara's ps feat he can win.


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## Raiken (Nov 8, 2013)

A Full Health Nagato can take on EMS Sasuke without Gedo Mazou.

Without Gedo Mazou: Nagato Wins: Very High Difficulty
With Gedo Mazou: Nagato Wins: Medium Difficulty

The thing is Nagato goes up in Tiers depending on his state:
All alive and not Edo:
(Single Body) Full Health Nagato >> (Paths) Crippled Nagato > (Single Body) Crippled Nagato


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## Blu-ray (Nov 8, 2013)

I'd say PS Susano'o busts open the core of CT and the shockwave of the sword swing kills Nagato, but that would be just assuming what Sasuke can do. Sasuke doesn't really have any feats as of now, so he still loses. Don't see the point of Gedo Mazo though. That thing is a non factor before Sasuke and it easily goes up in flames.


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## Atlantic Storm (Nov 8, 2013)

rubberguy said:


> Sasuke's ps lacks feat maybe if he is allowed madara's ps feat he can win.



Sasuke's perfect Susano'o was portrayed to be equal to Naruto's bijū-mode. An enton-imbued strike with his Susano'o would be enough to counter chibaku tensei, which is his only real challenge here, along with gedō mazō. Nagato himself and his summons aren't worth anything here; the summons can be eliminated easily through enton: yasaka no magatama, and none of Nagato's arsenal aside from chibaku tensei would dent or pose any real threat to current Sasuke.


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## Trojan (Nov 8, 2013)

Nagato is still superior IMO, Sasuke has done nothing that make me feel that he's stronger than
Nagato.


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## DaVizWiz (Nov 8, 2013)

What the fuck?

Sasuke can't even counter normal BT variants from Deva Path. He's pulled out of Susano casually by Healthy Nagato and slammed around the landscape until he decides to drop a meteor on him.

Nagato is a terrible matchup for a conventional MS/EMS Uchiha. 



> Sasuke's perfect Susano'o was portrayed to be equal to Naruto's bijū-mode.


He doesn't have a perfect Susano, that is Madara's title for his own Susano, which scales several multiples larger than Sasuke's and creates mountain-busting shockwave force with the speed of his chakra sword swings. 

And no, it's not equal to Naruto's BM. Can he create Super Bijuudamas? Can he manifest rippling shock waves with sound outbursts? 

It mimics it's durability capacity, overall size and it's speed with the help of Jugo's curse seal. Without it, it only mimics it's overall size. 

No chakra avatar in the manga will ever be equal to Naruto's Bijuu Mode.


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## ReverseZero12 (Nov 8, 2013)

Nagato wins mild difficulty up until this point. Sasuke hasn't displayed any feats that put him above nagato's level.


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## Jagger (Nov 8, 2013)

This is a wild match. Both contenders have the ability to counter the other one's abilities, but it really depends on how they play out their cards. If NAgato is smart, he could outlast Sasuke as it obvious the uzumaki's chakra reserves are superior right now. But if he doesn't bring out the big guns, he is screwed. Perfect Susano'O can be only countered through CST and CT.

Maybe Gedo Mazo could make a difference holding back Sasuke for a while. Amaterasu can be sent back through a chakra wave (yes, I do believe it's possible).


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 8, 2013)

even if he had madaras PS feats he would still lose nagato can just use BT to take him out of it


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## Joakim3 (Nov 8, 2013)

Sasuke's PS lacks the uber size and mountain oneshotting abilities of Madara's, which means it's going to be treated like a plaything by Nagato's boss sized + _Shinra Tensei_

Gedo Mazo provides enough issues as _Amaterasu_ is going to be ineffective when it can simply chakra roar it off or back, and physically it's *more* than capable of competing with Sasuke's PS variant. Thats not factoring things like Gedo Mazo holding PS in place and letting Nagato BT Sasuke out, or the _Soul Dragon_ which should _theoretically_ make Sasuno'o irrelevant as the attack is corporal 

Seeing Sasuke can survive CST based on v3 Sasuno'o (alight senju boosted) survived Obito's comparable attack (granted PS itself may not survive CST) Nagato just chooses the more brutal route and uses CT after launching Sasuke a sufficient distance to allow the core to gain sufficient mass so Sas can't break it, GG from that point on.


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## richard lewis (Nov 8, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> even if he had madaras PS feats he would still lose nagato can just use BT to take him out of it



That's doubtful

Source
Source

You can see that susanoo was dragged along with sasuke when obito used BT. and even if nagato could BT sasuke out of susanoo sasuke can just use amaterasu on him, nagato's only counter to it is ST so he would have to cancel BT in order to activate ST and get rid of the flames.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 8, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> That's doubtful
> 
> Source
> Source
> ...



Or just use _Fujustu Kuyin_..... and vaporize Sasuke with _Laser Explosion_ in the process


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Or just use _Fujustu Kuyin_..... and vaporize Sasuke with _Laser Explosion_ in the process



I'm not sure what Fujustu Kuyin is, I tried to look it up but found nothing, can you post a scan? lasers along with all of nagato's other attacks are tanked by susanoo.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> I'm not sure what Fujustu Kuyin is, I tried to look it up but found nothing, can you post a scan? lasers along with all of nagato's other attacks are tanked by susanoo.



It's the absorption sphere Nagato or his path uses to absorb attacks like FRS or Rasengan

If Sasuke is forcibly removed from his _Sasuno'o_ then no.... no he is not taking a laser


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2013)

Sasuke's only shot at winning imo is if he manages to use PS and it has the firepower closely comparable to Madara's PS(which is the only reason why I see EMS Madara without Kurama, winning against Nagato.), other then that Nagato has been slightly better portrayed with his around good defense against ninjutsu and sheer amount of firepower thanks to the Rinnegan. Although since Obito seems to be done, this may change sooner rather then later as Sasuke might be able to use PS to help stop Madara.


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## RBL (Nov 9, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Sasuke's only shot at winning imo is if he manages to use PS and it has the firepower closely comparable to Madara's PS(which is the only reason why I see EMS Madara without Kurama, winning against Nagato.), other then that Nagato has been slightly better portrayed with his around good defense against ninjutsu and sheer amount of firepower thanks to the Rinnegan. Although since Obito seems to be done, this may change sooner rather then later as Sasuke might be able to use PS to help stop Madara.



Sasuke can use the perfec susanoo? I thought madara stated it was a rinnegan technique,
Also, didn't he have a kyuubi cloak?

Rinnegan > EMS

And sasuke is not that impressive without his sharingan, so I doubt he could win this.


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> Sasuke can use the perfec susanoo?



Look at Sasuke's Susanoo when he used it after he got his EMS on the Zetsu clones and now look at Madara's Perfect Susanoo before stabilizing the chakra.

They look a bit similar, not exactly the same but very close right?

Now look at Madara's Perfect Susanoo once he stabalize the chakra and look at Sasuke's Susanoo when he used it in the last panel of chapter 651. 

It's pretty much implied that he can use it and that he already has, he just used it in the same fashion Madara did against Hashi at vote.  



> I thought madara stated it was a rinnegan technique,



Nope, not that I can remember.

Also, didn't he have a kyuubi cloak?[/QUOTE]

Nope. He lost the cloak of chakra Naruto gave him when Obito slammed them into the ground.



> Rinnegan > EMS



Unless the EMS belonged to Itachi 



> And sasuke is not that impressive without his sharingan,



Tis be true sir 



> so I doubt he could win this.


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> It's the absorption sphere Nagato or his path uses to absorb attacks like FRS or Rasengan
> 
> If Sasuke is forcibly removed from his _Sasuno'o_ then no.... no he is not taking a laser



If sasuke is forcibly removed from susanoo which based on the scan I previously posted is doubtful he blasts nagato with amaterasu. We've already seen against itachi that nagato isn't quick enough to avoid or absorb amaterasu, so his only option is ST it away after it's already made contact. and like I said b4 he can use ST and BT at the same time so he will have to cancel BT to do so.


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> Sasuke can use the perfec susanoo? I thought madara stated it was a rinnegan technique,
> Also, didn't he have a kyuubi cloak?
> 
> Rinnegan > EMS
> ...



Really? he has karin, chidori, katons, high level taijutsu/kenjutsu, shuriken usage, ect... What does nagato have w/o Rinnegan? nothing! he'd be fodder w/o it. So IDK what your point is. Regardless of whether sasuke has PS or not his susanoo has been portrayed to be on par with naruto's BM avatar so it can still tank anything nagato has. and BTW no he didn't use a chakra cloak to power susano. This is how much water     This is how much water       no chakra cloak


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## Joakim3 (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> If sasuke is forcibly removed from susanoo which based on the scan I previously posted is doubtful he blasts nagato with amaterasu.



That wasn't _Bansho Tenin_, Obito straight up blitzed them? Nagato could restrain PS with Gedo Mazo, or use the force of _Laser Explosion_ as the "pushing" force while BT is used as the "pulling" force to separate them



richard lewis said:


> We've already seen against itachi that nagato isn't quick enough to avoid or absorb amaterasu, so his only option is ST it away after it's already made contact. and like I said b4 he can use ST and BT at the same time so he will have to cancel BT to do so.



Nagato sensed the pressure build up, warned Naruto & Killer B and used _Shinra Tensei_ before Edo Itachi even fired _Ameterasu_ (and he can use it as fast as EMS Sasuke), so no _Amaterasu_ is a complete non factor

Second Nagato _choose_ to be hit, which is why he remarked "Ah... I see what you did, then smiled" rather than launching Itachi into the horizon with another ST.


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## Jagger (Nov 9, 2013)

Brandon Lee said:


> Sasuke can use the perfec susanoo? I thought madara stated it was a rinnegan technique,
> Also, didn't he have a kyuubi cloak?
> 
> Rinnegan > EMS
> ...


1)Yes, he can. It has been debated way too many times and evidence has been brought that Sasuke is capable of using Perfect Susano'O.

2). No, it's not. EMS Madara was capable of using Perfect Susano'O despite not having the RInnegan back then.

3)It depends on the user.

4)Your point is? Nagato is shit without his Rinnegan and would probably lose to Base Sasuke w/o Sharingan.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 9, 2013)

Sasuke do not have the feats yet only dazzling hype with hype showings(like manifesting a PS armor not a full blown PS).

I still think it ends with a chibaku tensei  after some preta path trolling's until sasuke delve into his PS offenses more...like bigger enton.


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> That wasn't _Bansho Tenin_, Obito straight up blitzed them? Nagato could restrain PS with Gedo Mazo, or use the force of _Laser Explosion_ as the "pushing" force while BT is used as the "pulling" force to separate them



 why would the upper left hand pannel focus in on the rennigan if he wasn't using a rennigan jutsu?




Joakim3 said:


> Nagato sensed the pressure build up, warned Naruto & Killer B and used _Shinra Tensei_ before Edo Itachi even fired _Ameterasu_ (and he can use it as fast as EMS Sasuke), so no _Amaterasu_ is a complete non factor
> 
> Second Nagato _choose_ to be hit, which is why he remarked "Ah... I see what you did, then smiled" rather than launching Itachi into the horizon with another ST.



 really nagato used ST b4 itachi fired amaterasu
here itachi used amaterasu
Sasuke used that tactic with his Housenka when he fought Zaku
and here 7 pages later he finally repels it
Sasuke used that tactic with his Housenka when he fought Zaku


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## Psp123789 (Nov 9, 2013)

Sasuke stomps Nagato with low-mid diff. With PS Sasuke can pretty much counter Nagato's entire arsenal. Asura path is useless as it won't damage PS at all. Soul Rip is useless as he needs to make physical contact with sasuke which isn't happening thanks to PS. Summons are instantly incinerated with enton. Preta path isn't absorbing PS in a few seconds and it won't protect Nagato from shock waves that can destroy mountains. CST is easily withstood by sticking those giant PS swords into the ground. The core of CT is instantly destroyed by giant enton magatamas and enton arrows and enton PS strikes. BT is also useless as Nagato has never shown the ability to pull something as massive as PS. The only thing left is the gedo statue but that gets easily obliterated by those mountain busting swords. The sasuke proceeds to either incinerate Nagato with enton or cut him into pieces with sword strikes. However this entire scenario is using the assumption that Sasuke's PS is the same as Madaras but with enton.


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## kaminogan (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> Really? he has karin, chidori, katons, high level taijutsu/kenjutsu, shuriken usage, ect... What does nagato have w/o Rinnegan? nothing! he'd be fodder w/o it. So IDK what your point is. Regardless of whether sasuke has PS or not his susanoo has been portrayed to be on par with naruto's BM avatar so it can still tank anything nagato has. and BTW no he didn't use a chakra cloak to power susano. face     face       no chakra cloak



he has gedo mazo,


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> he has gedo mazo,



which gets burned to the ground by amaterasu


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## kaminogan (Nov 9, 2013)

sasuke w/o sharingan does not have amaterasu


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## richard lewis (Nov 9, 2013)

kaminogan said:


> sasuke w/o sharingan does not have amaterasu




last I checked sharingan isn't restricted here


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## Coppur (Nov 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Sasuke is superior to Nagato at this point in the manga I feel.
> 
> CST can be tanked via Perfect Susanoo, Chibaku Tensei core can be bust with PS Enton arrows (which he should have) or a few Perfect Susanoo Enton-powered slashes. Considering Preta Path took time to absorb a mere Odama Rasengan, absorbing a chakra construct literally hundred of times bigger will take time. Gedo Mazo can be socked with Perfect Susanoo, if Hachibi manages to pound the crap of the thing I don't see why a PS slash won't knock it over for a bit considering Hachibi does not have mountain slicing power/punches. Asura Missiles are useless before final Susanoo let alone PS. Add on the fact that Sasuke should also have Yata/Totsuka, Tsukiyomi and I don't see how he loses here. Nagato puts up a hell of a fight but PS renders most of his arsenal moot.
> 
> EMS Sasuke, mid-high difficulty.



I agree with this one the most, with the exception of the difficulty, mid-high difficulty? I'd say it'd be at least high difficulty.


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## Jagger (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> really nagato used ST b4 itachi fired amaterasu
> here itachi used amaterasu
> told
> and here 7 pages later he finally repels it
> told


That wasn't even Nagato, but Kabuto controlling him. Nagato choose to be hit because he kind of figured out Itachi broke out of ET's control.


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## Bonly (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> last I checked sharingan isn't restricted here



I don't believe he was referring to the fight in this thread but more so on something you said. Brandon Lee had said "sasuke is not that impressive without his sharingan". 

Then you replied with "Really? he has karin, chidori, katons, high level taijutsu/kenjutsu, shuriken usage, ect... *What does nagato have w/o Rinnegan? nothing! he'd be fodder w/o it*. So IDK what your point is.". 

Kaminogan brought up how Nagato has the Gedo as for something Nagato has, you mentioned Ama and he told you Sasuke doesn't have Ama without the Sharingan. 

You need to get on that Alpha level swagger and keep up


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## kaminogan (Nov 9, 2013)

richard lewis said:


> last I checked sharingan isn't restricted here





EDIT: what bonly said ^


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 9, 2013)

No Uchiha is going to so much as challenge Nagato if they rely on chakra based jutsu like Susanoo. 

Meaning Sasuke can only defend against Nagato... which will eventually lead to his loss.


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## Ersa (Nov 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> No Uchiha is going to so much as challenge Nagato if they rely on chakra based jutsu like Susanoo.
> 
> Meaning Sasuke can only defend against Nagato... which will eventually lead to his loss.


I'm sorry, that is extremely flawed logic. By that logic Nagato is going to beat Hashirama because he relies on chakra-based Kekkai Genkai.

Also note here, Preta took a while to absorb the Rasengan. Perfect Susanoo is hundreds of times bigger than an Chou Odama Rasengan. Nagato isn't absorbing it before Sasuke does something about it, not to mention it's a massive NLF assuming Preta can absorb that much chakra when it's best feat is absorbing FRS; it's why we don't say Yata's Mirror can tank Juubi TBB's.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 9, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> I'm sorry, that is extremely flawed logic. By that logic Nagato is going to beat Hashirama because he relies on chakra-based Kekkai Genkai.



Read the databooks, Hashirama uses chakra to manipulate actual trees. In other words Hashirama cannot be stopped as easily as Sasuke.



> Also note here, Preta took a while to absorb the Rasengan. Perfect Susanoo is hundreds of times bigger than an Chou Odama Rasengan. Nagato isn't absorbing it before Sasuke does something about it, not to mention it's a massive NLF assuming Preta can absorb that much chakra when it's best feat is absorbing FRS; it's why we don't say Yata's Mirror can tank Juubi TBB's.



The amount of time Preta takes to absorb jutsu is meaningless as all Ninjutsu against it was always helpless. Otherwise the Gokage wouldn't have resorted to trapping Madara; Naruto and Jiraiya wouldn't have resorted to taking out Preta Path altogether; Killer B wouldn't have stopped using Ninjutsu upon discovering the Preta Path.

The pattern is your conceived drawback of the Preta Path doesn't actually exist. 

What's Sasuke going to do, send more chakra attacks? 

Preta Path is stated and shown to absorb all types of jutsu. *At this point* it should be undeniable that this is the case. Fact is, Sasuke has shown nothing to make us believe he can so much as challenge Nagato.


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## Ersa (Nov 9, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Read the databooks, Hashirama uses chakra to manipulate actual trees. In other words Hashirama cannot be stopped as easily as Sasuke.
> 
> The amount of time Preta takes to absorb jutsu is meaningless as all Ninjutsu against it was always helpless. Otherwise the Gokage wouldn't have resorted to trapping Madara; Naruto and Jiraiya wouldn't have resorted to taking out Preta Path altogether; Killer B wouldn't have stopped using Ninjutsu upon discovering the Preta Path.


So you at least agree that it'd take Nagato a while to absorb PS? Sasuke isn't dumb, he can send Aoda and his hawk down to attack Nagato while Nagato's trying to fend off Perfect Susanoo slashes. And Shurado isn't stopping Aoda. If Nagato switches to ST to blast the snake away, Sasuke can then step on him with PS.



> The pattern is your conceived drawback of the Preta Path doesn't actually exist.


It does, it doesn't instantly absorb ninjutsu, meaning in the time he's taking to do it, the opponent can try something else.



> What's Sasuke going to do, send more chakra attacks?


Summons, I doubt Preta can stop the momentum behind a mountain slashing sword either.



> Preta Path is stated and shown to absorb all types of jutsu. *At this point* it should be undeniable that this is the case. Fact is, Sasuke has shown nothing to make us believe he can so much *as challenge Nagato*.


An EMS user who just fought and survived a clash with Narutoverse's second God, who is portrayed to be equal with BSM+ Naruto can't even challenge a character who became irrelevant over 100 chapters over? That's seriously overrating Nagato.

Sasuke has both the feats and portrayal to suggest he can beat Nagato now. It's not easy due to Nagato's power but if his Perfect Susanoo is anything like Madara's (and everything points to it being equal) then he wins. You're more or less relying on NLF to hype Preta because Nagato literally has no other way to win.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> So you at least agree that it'd take Nagato a while to absorb PS? Sasuke isn't dumb, he can send Aoda and his hawk down to attack Nagato while Nagato's trying to fend off Perfect Susanoo slashes. And Shurado isn't stopping Aoda. If Nagato switches to ST to blast the snake away, Sasuke can then step on him with PS.



You assume "taking a while" means anything. It just means Susanoo will be useless, as Naruto proved, Nagato is far from harmless whilst absorbing jutsu.

Yes, Nagato can merely summon or send an Asura Path weapon towards the summons you mentioned. Fending off the slashes won't be difficult for Nagato, he just needs to avoid. As a cripple he showed he was very capable of short bursts of very impressive speed. 

If Sasuke would like to lose PS by trying to step on a guy who can absorb it, that's his choice. 

Either way, Perfect Susanoo isn't much of a threat to Nagato when he has the Preta Path.



> It does, it doesn't instantly absorb ninjutsu, meaning in the time he's taking to do it, the opponent can try something else.



Now why hasn't _any_ opponent done that thus far? Why have they _always_ resorted to taking out the Path or stalling the power in some way?

If the alleged immense amount of time to absorb the jutsu is a drawback like you're _trying_ to _assume_ it is... In the *four* times we've seen that Path in action, we wouldn't have seen top tier foes resort to working around the Path.



> Summons, I doubt Preta can stop the momentum behind a mountain slashing sword either.



Preta Path was able to stop any jutsu from FRS to Jinton... Perfect Susanoo's sword won't be trouble at all. 

Summons can be countered by Nagato's own summons. That includes Gedo Mazo.



> An EMS user who just fought and survived a clash with Narutoverse's second God, who is portrayed to be equal with BSM+ Naruto can't even challenge a character who became irrelevant over 100 chapters over? That's seriously overrating Nagato.
> 
> Sasuke has both the feats and portrayal to suggest he can beat Nagato now. It's not easy due to Nagato's power but if his Perfect Susanoo is anything like Madara's (and everything points to it being equal) then he wins. You're more or less relying on NLF to hype Preta because Nagato literally has no other way to win.



An EMS user with help from a Hokage, Bijuu Sage user and the vast majority of the Narutoverse was able to survive Obito. 
You've got nothing at all to put Sasuke on Nagato's level at the moment. In fact if Obito was actually making full use of his power (that includes Rinnegan, Kamui ejections and even Mokuton) then your point would've meant something. One could say you're overestimating Sasuke with little to go on.

Sasuke has _no_ feats, nor has he got _any_ portrayal to suggest he can beat Nagato. That's just a fact you've pulled out of the air with no real support. 

The "NLF" shit with Preta kind of got stale when we saw that the Path was capable of absorbing Sage chakra, Bijuu chakra, Susanoo, Jinton etc. It comes across as if you're hiding behind the NLF to try to rationalise the idea that Sasuke is a threat to Nagato. 

Portrayal of Sasuke ever touching a Rinnegan user always leans towards him becoming one on his own.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> So you at least agree that it'd take Nagato a while to absorb PS? Sasuke isn't dumb, he can send Aoda and his hawk down to attack Nagato while Nagato's trying to fend off Perfect Susanoo slashes. And Shurado isn't stopping Aoda. If Nagato switches to ST to blast the snake away, Sasuke can then step on him with PS.


Sasuke doesn't have perfect Susanoo...and even so its featless.





> It does, it doesn't instantly absorb ninjutsu, meaning in the time he's taking to do it, the opponent can try something else.


 Nagato absorbed everything near instantly as well as Madara. And even so no chakra based attack is going to get through the barrier.





> Summons, I doubt Preta can stop the momentum behind a mountain slashing sword either.


 Sasuke has a mountain slashing sword? What manga are you reading?





> An EMS user who just fought and survived a clash with Narutoverse's second God, who is portrayed to be equal with BSM+ Naruto can't even challenge a character who became irrelevant over 100 chapters over? That's seriously overrating Nagato.


 Portrayed to be. Naruto would shitstomp Sasuke. And Sasuke never clashed with Obito, if it wasn't for juugo or Naruto Sasuke would be a non-factor. Irrelevant? The master of the rinnegan Irrelevant? You are fucking ridiculous.





> Sasuke has both the feats and portrayal to suggest he can beat Nagato now. It's not easy due to Nagato's power but if his Perfect Susanoo is anything like Madara's (and everything points to it being equal) then he wins. You're more or less relying on NLF to hype Preta because Nagato literally has no other way to win.


Portrayal...lol. Feats....lol.



> if his Perfect Susanoo is anything like Madara's (and everything points to it being equal)




*IF* I remember people saying that Sasuke had Totsuka after getting EMS...well he didn't, People suggested that he would have a shield and sword...well he doesn't.


Quit giving Sasuke Madara's feats...you are making your self look dumb.


Also why aren't you putting this in spoiler text...technically it hasn't(if it even will) been put in the manga yet...do I need to report you.


You are probably one of the worst if not the worst active debater in the battledome.


Oh yea and about the no limits Fallacy of Preta.

Unlike YM and its NLF(YM hasn't been shown to protect against everything and Kirin busted Susanoo), Preta has shown to have no limits to what it can absorb. It isn't like someone can overload Nagato's chakra pool and make him OD on chakra.


Also I find it quite funny that Sasuke has never engaged a person that is actively using Rinnegan. Its like obito got Rinnegan to look cool.


Susanoo-Absorbed by Preta.
Amaterasu- Preta
everything Sasuke has besides taijutsu-preta.


Also Aoda can be taken care of by Asura path or just letting human path kill it in a 1 touch kill.


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## God of this Forum (Nov 10, 2013)

We need more feats from Sasuke's PS.

We can all agree that he has PS but has yet to do a thing with it on its own.

Nagato wins but once we get more feats Sasuke is above him.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Look at Sasuke's Susanoo when he used it after he got his EMS on the Zetsu clones and now look at Madara's Perfect Susanoo before stabilizing the chakra.
> 
> They look a bit similar, not exactly the same but very close right?
> 
> ...


All I see is a Susanoo face. I don't see a skyscraper tall Susanoo with 2 faces, 4 arms and legs.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

God of this Forum said:


> We need more feats from Sasuke's PS.
> 
> We can all agree that he has PS but has yet to do a thing with it on its own.
> 
> Nagato wins but once we get more feats Sasuke is above him.



No goddammit we fucking can't. We haven't seen the size, the power, or its abilities. 

It FUCKING FEATLESS AND YET TO BE SHOWN.

Unless yall want to say that Sasuke Perfect Susanoo is just a face of Susanoo...then ok.


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## God of this Forum (Nov 10, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> No goddammit we fucking can't. We haven't seen the size, the power, or its abilities.
> 
> It FUCKING FEATLESS AND YET TO BE SHOWN.
> 
> Unless yall want to say that Sasuke Perfect Susanoo is just a face of Susanoo...then ok.



I clearly said that we need more feats, calm down its only manga at the end of the day.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

NOt to mention Gedo Mazo

used it in the last panel

used it in the last panel

used it in the last panel

used it in the last panel



Gedo Dragon Good motherfucking GAME>

/thread


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 10, 2013)

It took naruto killer bee and itachi to beat Nagato who was operating like a mindless puppet which restricts his full capabilities.  what makes you think sasuke stands any chance against him c'mon now Nagato takes this low difficulty  6 arms allows the guy to not only use shinra tensai, summon gedo mazo plus all the other summons at the same time but  prepare and fire two powerful asura attacks, and perform CT all at the same time.


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## Enki (Nov 10, 2013)

Until we see some impressive feats from Sasuke, Nagato takes this without a doubt.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Nov 10, 2013)

If Gedou Mazou is powered by 7 Bijuu, Nagato takes the victory with moderate difficulty. 

Sasuke isn't Madara; he doesn't have the power output to fight Nagato and GM simultaneously.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 10, 2013)

If we go by portrayal PS Sasuke is equal to BSM Naruto which means Sasuke should be much stronger than Nagato. If we go by feats then Sasuke hasn't really done anything except put legs on his susano'o which hasn't shown strength comparable to madara's. Even if we assume he has PS he really hasn't done anything with it. Since the gedo statue is powered by 7 tailed beasts it can hold down sasuke's susano'o easily and let Nagato go to town on him. Sasuke needs Madara's PS feats to win.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 10, 2013)

It isn't transitive, just because BSM Naruto stands a _very good_ chance against Rinnegan users, it doesn't automatically mean Sasuke does.

Naruto, unlike Sasuke, actually has a very special counter to the Preta Path; frog-fu. Y'know, the Path that fucks over everyone who relies on Ninjutsu, such as Sasuke. 

The closest Sasuke has is his sword skill, but that isn't effective considering the Outer Path stakes and Asura Path. 

Portrayal suggests Naruto and Sasuke can fight on par with each other. Not Sasuke can beat everyone Naruto has fought, or Naruto can beat everyone that Sasuke's fought.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

Portrayal has nothing to do with the battledome.


What is this portrayal between Sasuke and Naruto?


Naruto absolutely wrecks Sasuke, like he's a fucking child.


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## Misaki Yata (Nov 10, 2013)

IchLiebe soloed the Sauske wankers.

Nagato is wa out of Sasuke's league.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 10, 2013)

Of course I did.



I solo Uchiha's.


You think Itachi and Obito killed the Uchiha...It was Ichliebe, the honorable bastion of truth. Obito was unbeatable due to Kamui, Itachi ran, and Sasuke cried.


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## Ersa (Nov 11, 2013)

@IchiLiebe; I'm really not going to bother to address any of your points because you're resorting to attacks and simply claiming Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo when it's blatantly obvious he does (Tengu mask, he claims this is the same thing Madara did).

I also wouldn't call someone the worst debater when you believe Mei would easily defeat Itachi. 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You assume "taking a while" means anything. It just means Susanoo will be useless, as Naruto proved, Nagato is far from harmless whilst absorbing jutsu.


No it doesn't, the Naruto situation is different as he had Naruto caught in his summon so he couldn't move and that was a vastly weakened KCM Naruto. Someone who would get creamed by EMS Sasuke.



> Yes, Nagato can merely summon or send an Asura Path weapon towards the summons you mentioned. Fending off the slashes won't be difficult for Nagato, he just needs to avoid. As a cripple he showed he was very capable of short bursts of very impressive speed.


Shorts bursts of speed aren't going to allow Nagato to escape a mountain-sized sword when he couldn't even dodge Totsuka . Yes it was in a dust cloud but he has Rinnegan sensing and a Perfect Susanoo sword has multi-tudes times more AOE and reach. 


> If Sasuke would like to lose PS by trying to step on a guy who can absorb it, that's his choice.


If Nagato is busy summoning or using Asura Path to blow up Sasuke's summons he won't be able to activate Preta in time. 

Interesting ueharakk pointed out something to me. Sasuke could literally swamp the field in Amaterasu/Enton (because his chakra levels are just that great now) and drop 1-2 Kirins on Nagato. And Preta isn't absorbing that cause it doesn't actually use chakra as Zetsu noted. Do I need to grab the panel up for you?  



> Either way, Perfect Susanoo isn't much of a threat to Nagato when he has the Preta Path.


But Kirin is 



> Now why hasn't _any_ opponent done that thus far? Why have they _always_ resorted to taking out the Path or stalling the power in some way?


The Gokage were fighting Madara, they had no other way to counter it. They were literally Genin before their teacher. When the other person with Preta is stronger than you then yes you have to take out the path or stall the power. Sasuke, EMS Madara, Hashirama are people who can literally brute-force their way through Preta with their respective jutsu.



> If the alleged immense amount of time to absorb the jutsu is a drawback like you're _trying_ to _assume_ it is... In the *four* times we've seen that Path in action, we wouldn't have seen top tier foes resort to working around the Path.


Weakened KCM Naruto is not a top tier, neither is Onoki or B.  



> Summons can be countered by Nagato's own summons. That includes Gedo Mazo.


Perfect Susanoo sits Gedo Mazo on his ass, Hachibi B did it and he doesn't have a feats to suggest he can compare to Perfect Susanoo.



> An EMS user with help from a Hokage, Bijuu Sage user and the vast majority of the Narutoverse was able to survive Obito.


Actually he got slammed to the ground by Obito and got back up. The same Obito who in a weaker forme busted the Hokage barrier with his arms. It was just him and Naruto fighting Obito at one point.



> You've got nothing at all to put Sasuke on Nagato's level at the moment. In fact if Obito was actually making full use of his power (that includes Rinnegan, Kamui ejections and even Mokuton) then your point would've meant something. One could say you're overestimating Sasuke with little to go on.


Obito is the same dude who blitzed Tobirama and a Hashirama clone, is stronger than Hashirama, is so powerful Edo Tensei zombies can't regenerate from him and can fire Bijuudamas even stronger than V2 Juubi. He doesn't need Rinnegan, Kamui or Mokuton. He can literally nuke and kill 99% of the Narutoverse. He also has speed faster then BSM Naruto.

The difference between Obito and Nagato is the difference between Iruka and Nagato. I'm not even joking 



> Sasuke has _no_ feats, nor has he got _any_ portrayal to suggest he can beat Nagato. That's just a fact you've pulled out of the air with no real support.


Actually he does, he's going to fight BSM Naruto eventually. Who would defeat Nagato with zero difficulty. He does have feats, he survived a hit from a god tier and latter defeated the same god tier in combination with Naruto. 



> The "NLF" shit with Preta kind of got stale when we saw that the Path was capable of absorbing Sage chakra, Bijuu chakra, Susanoo, Jinton etc. It comes across as if you're hiding behind the NLF to try to rationalise the idea that Sasuke is a threat to Nagato.


NLF applies; we haven't seen Preta absorb Susanoo btw.

Otherwise prove to me Yata is not unbreakable.



> Portrayal of Sasuke ever touching a Rinnegan user always leans towards him becoming one on his own.


EMS Madara would defeat Nagato and he doesn't have Rinnegan. Same with Naruto, Hashirama, Minato. Rinnegan =/= Top tier.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 11, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Portrayal has nothing to do with the battledome.
> 
> 
> What is this portrayal between Sasuke and Naruto?
> ...


I was just saying that they are portrayed to be able to fight at a similar lvl. In order to fight at a similar lvl with someone who is a stronger than Nagato by a very large margin, has to mean he at least stands a chance of beating him. I agree that Naruto would stomp Sasuke.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> It isn't transitive, just because BSM Naruto stands a _very good_ chance against Rinnegan users, it doesn't automatically mean Sasuke does.
> 
> Naruto, unlike Sasuke, actually has a very special counter to the Preta Path; frog-fu. Y'know, the Path that fucks over everyone who relies on Ninjutsu, such as Sasuke.
> 
> ...


I already said that by feats Nagato beats him. I was just saying that Sasuke is being portrayed as stronger than Nagato with his PS which he hasn't shown any feats with.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> @IchiLiebe; I'm really not going to bother to address any of your points because you're resorting to attacks and simply claiming Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo when it's blatantly obvious he does (Tengu mask, he claims this is the same thing Madara did).
> 
> I also wouldn't call someone the worst debater when you believe Mei would easily defeat Itachi.
> 
> ...


watch your mouth dont ever say ems madara is stronger than nagato


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## Joakim3 (Nov 11, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> watch your mouth dont ever say ems madara is stronger than nagato



EMS Madara is stronger than Nagato...... by a substantial amount


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> No it doesn't, the Naruto situation is different as he had Naruto caught in his summon so he couldn't move and that was a vastly weakened KCM Naruto. Someone who would get creamed by EMS Sasuke.



Again your assumption actually differs from what people who actually fought the Preta Path thought and did.



> Shorts bursts of speed aren't going to allow Nagato to escape a mountain-sized sword when he couldn't even dodge Totsuka . Yes it was in a dust cloud but he has Rinnegan sensing and a Perfect Susanoo sword has multi-tudes times more AOE and reach.
> 
> If Nagato is busy summoning or using Asura Path to blow up Sasuke's summons he won't be able to activate Preta in time.



Short bursts of speed allowed Nagato to reach KCM Naruto, outpace a ST to get Bee and avoid an attack by V2 Bee. Dodging a slash won't be hard. 

Nagato tried to dodge Totsuka?
The point you made after that makes no sense due to this unsupported assumption you made.

Nagato was able to use Preta while pulling Naruto's soul out and summoning the Enma-Dai-O, whilst using the Asura Path on Bee; multi tasking is fine for him. 



> Interesting ueharakk pointed out something to me. Sasuke could literally swamp the field in Amaterasu/Enton (because his chakra levels are just that great now) and drop 1-2 Kirins on Nagato. And Preta isn't absorbing that cause it doesn't actually use chakra as Zetsu noted. Do I need to grab the panel up for you?



That's cool, but the Enton would simply be absorbed. Kirin could be countered by a simple ST barrier; Nagato summoned a ST shield against a bunch of Kunai coming for him.

Lets look at our stances so far, you are now resorting to made up strategies alongside baseless assumptions to keep your stance going. Whilst I'm still sticking to the reasonable inferences we can make with information that's actually in the manga. In other words, your stance is coming across as less credible as it makes little use of actual manga facts.



> But Kirin is



So you're admitting PS isn't a threat then? 



> The Gokage were fighting Madara, they had no other way to counter it. They were literally Genin before their teacher. When the other person with Preta is stronger than you then yes you have to take out the path or stall the power. Sasuke, EMS Madara, Hashirama are people who can literally brute-force their way through Preta with their respective jutsu.





Now you're actually disregarding manga facts with power scaling which makes no difference whatsoever. 
If _Jinton_ can be absorbed instantly, then no other jutsu has hope. Are you going to forget that Madara was able to absorb his own Susanoo instantly when he absorbed Jinton?



> Weakened KCM Naruto is not a top tier, neither is Onoki or B.



Those characters don't lose their top tier status because their showings shatter your baseless Preta assumption.



> Perfect Susanoo sits Gedo Mazo on his ass, Hachibi B did it and he doesn't have a feats to suggest he can compare to Perfect Susanoo.



Gedo Mazo still has its powerful Raiton jutsu and its shockwave jutsu, which can be a powerful offense and defensive offense against Perfect Susanoo. The Hachibi had help, as you forgot. In this case, Perfect Susanoo can be stomped seeing as Nagato's one Path can nullify its effectiveness altogether.

But its good to see that you acknowledge Gedo Mazo and Nagato's summons completely negate the effectiveness Sasuke's summons can have.



> Actually he got slammed to the ground by Obito and got back up. The same Obito who in a weaker forme busted the Hokage barrier with his arms. It was just him and Naruto fighting Obito at one point.



Oh right, so an EMS user just gets slammed onto the ground by the second God of the Narutoverse. Your point was what again?



> Obito is the same dude who blitzed Tobirama and a Hashirama clone, is stronger than Hashirama, is so powerful Edo Tensei zombies can't regenerate from him and can fire Bijuudamas even stronger than V2 Juubi. He doesn't need Rinnegan, Kamui or Mokuton. He can literally nuke and kill 99% of the Narutoverse. He also has speed faster then BSM Naruto.
> 
> The difference between Obito and Nagato is the difference between Iruka and Nagato. I'm not even joking



That's nice but Obito as no relevance here. 

Anyone with the Juubi would be immensely powerful. Though you can only say your point readily if, and only if, you factor in Obito using Rinnegan powers and MS powers too... which he can. But either way: Jubito with Rinnegan-MS powers>Nagato>>>Sasuke. 

Now the fact you've avoided Sasuke altogether, that in-itself shatters your point.



> Actually he does, he's going to fight BSM Naruto eventually. Who would defeat Nagato with zero difficulty. He does have feats, he survived a hit from a god tier and latter defeated the same god tier in combination with Naruto.



That is very poor reasoning. If Naruto can take Rinnegan users, it means he can take Rinnegan users. It doesn't mean Sasuke can, the fact your main Sasuke reasoning relies on Naruto's capabilities destroys your point altogether. You don't rely on Sasuke's abilities; this sort of reasoning would've been more appropriate in a Naruto vs Nagato thread.



> NLF applies; we haven't seen Preta absorb Susanoo btw.
> 
> Otherwise prove to me Yata is not unbreakable.



Yata has no relevance here. Also tell me Yata isn't Ninjutsu; think Yin-Yang jutsu to see where I'm going with this.

What did Madara have active before he absorbed Jinton? 

[QUIOTE]EMS Madara would defeat Nagato and he doesn't have Rinnegan. Same with Naruto, Hashirama, Minato. Rinnegan =/= Top tier.[/QUOTE]

EMS Madara has a chance at beating a Rinnegan user. Then again, EMS Madara is far more capable than Sasuke. 

Minato with KCM has a shot, not without. Naruto has the right abilities as does Hashirama.

Rinnegan generally means top tiers as all the users of the Rinnegan have consistently shown to be top tier. Their powers are considered legendary and out of this world. Portrayal alone tells you this, feats cement this. 

Of course you failed to mention Sasuke anywhere. You have no Sasuke centric reasoning whatsoever.



Psp123789 said:


> I already said that by feats Nagato beats him. I was just saying that Sasuke is being portrayed as stronger than Nagato with his PS which he hasn't shown any feats with.



Except you only said it. You made a statement without any reasoning. 

Sasuke surpassing Nagato was a prerequisite to him being synchronised with the Gedo Mazo. That meant some steps had to be taken for Sasuke to be stronger than Nagato.
If anything, Sasuke becoming a Rinnegan user would make him stronger than Nagato. 
Sasuke exceeding Madara, Rinnegan, linked to him using Senjutsu.

So body and eye powers, that's what the portrayal suggests would put Sasuke above these Rikudou shinobi. 

His EMS is only enough to put him above Uchiha, even then it isn't going to be the highest EMS as he can't make use of the MS' primary function: controlling Kurama. 
Seeing as Kurama is one reason EMS Madara has a very powerful case when he's put against Nagato.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> Shorts bursts of speed aren't going to allow Nagato to escape a mountain-sized sword when he couldn't even dodge Totsuka . Yes it was in a dust cloud but he has Rinnegan sensing and a Perfect Susanoo sword has multi-tudes times more AOE and reach.



A cripple emcaicated Nagato mannaged to out_shunshin_ his own _Shinra Tensei_ and blitz Killer B from several hundred meters, a mobile Nagato would be capable of dodging Sasuke's non mountain range one shooting sword swings quite comfortable, assuming Gedo Mazo doesn't step in (which it canonically does with Nagato)



Kyokan said:


> If Nagato is busy summoning or using Asura Path to blow up Sasuke's summons he won't be able to activate Preta in time.



Why wouldn't he be able to activate _Fujustu Kuyin_ in time? He's a sensor, can see chakra buildup and has quite literally the _best_ multi tasking feats in the manga bar Naruto thanks to his clones



Kyokan said:


> Interesting ueharakk pointed out something to me. Sasuke could literally swamp the field in Amaterasu/Enton (because his chakra levels are just that great now) and drop 1-2 Kirins on Nagato. And Preta isn't absorbing that cause it doesn't actually use chakra as Zetsu noted. Do I need to grab the panel up for you?



Couldn't Nagato just disperse the clouds with _Ujizokai no Jutsu_?



Kyokan said:


> But Kirin is



Gedo Mazo chakra roars that bitch back , but in all seriousness, it should be more than capable of shielding him as unlike Obito, Nagato likes camp under neath it



Kyokan said:


> Perfect Susanoo sits Gedo Mazo on his ass, Hachibi B did it and he doesn't have a feats to suggest he can compare to Perfect Susanoo.



Killer B back handed Kokuo 3km across the _Biju Hamachimi_ crater... When Sasuke's PS shows strength feats like that then we can argue. If it comes down to hacking away with his sword... Gedo Mazo nuked *itself* along with 90% of the 4th division with a _Kirin_ level lighting spam to blow up _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_ (something the size of the Uchiha hide out), Sasuke's sword is going to be child's play to that thing especially when it's actively attacking

Gedo Mazo eats a sword swing grabs Sasuke's PS by the face and slams it into the ground Juubito style..... and Nagato goes to town 



Kyokan said:


> Actually he got slammed to the ground by Obito and got back up. The same Obito who in a weaker forme busted the Hokage barrier with his arms. It was just him and Naruto fighting Obito at one point.



Lets not forget Sasuke was being juiced by Naruto's V1 Cloak and Juugo's CS2 (the former which gives him 3+ times amount of chakra)... I'd think a lone Sasuke's PS would be around the formers level in terms of durability and firepower



Kyokan said:


> Actually he does, he's going to fight BSM Naruto eventually. Who would defeat Nagato with zero difficulty. He does have feats, he survived a hit from a god tier and latter defeated the same god tier in combination with Naruto.



That god tier was induced with PIS like every other villain. It's like saying Pain Arc SM Naruto could beat Edo Itachi because he was capable of defeating the _Pein Rikudo_. Obito could have literally set up the barrier used 4 Juubidama's and the manga would have ended right then and their.... all on a whim

I think we all can agree Sasuke is literally on verge of being stronger than Nagato, he really just need better PS feats, thats all.



Kyokan said:


> NLF applies; we haven't seen Preta absorb Susanoo btw.
> 
> Otherwise prove to me Yata is not unbreakable.



The thing is _Fujutsu Kuyin_ works based on chakra _quantity_ not _size_ and has absorbed Biju level chakra constructs, where as Yata hasn't been shown to tank really anything

It took longer to absorb an FRS than it took to absorb SM Jiraiyas _Senpo: Gomen_, despite the latter being literally 1000's of times larger. Then we have the fact that an emaciated Nagato's _Fujutsu Kuyin_ absorbed a V2 cloak in seconds, shows it can handle Biju level quantities something that i doubt Sasuke's PS exceeds

Now I'm not going to say _Fujustu Kuyin_ can absorb a _Juubidama_ or a _Super Bijudama_, but a Biju sized _Sasuno'o_ is a little more realistic when it's already absorbed Biju _level_ amounts of chakra in seconds



Everything I didn't comment on I agree with


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## Psp123789 (Nov 11, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Except you only said it. You made a statement without any reasoning.
> 
> Sasuke surpassing Nagato was a prerequisite to him being synchronised with the Gedo Mazo. That meant some steps had to be taken for Sasuke to be stronger than Nagato.
> If anything, Sasuke becoming a Rinnegan user would make him stronger than Nagato.
> ...


Actually PS is all Sasuke's needs to beat Nagato. Same with EMS Madara. I don't see how he's going to gain the rinnegan before getting PS.He's already indicated to have PS and he is portrayed as Naruto's equal with it. But he lacks the feats to prove it. That's why I said by portrayal he's above Nagato's lvl.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 11, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Actually PS is all Sasuke's needs to beat Nagato. Same with EMS Madara. I don't see how he's going to gain the rinnegan before getting PS.He's already indicated to have PS and he is portrayed as Naruto's equal with it. But he lacks the feats to prove it. That's why I said by portrayal he's above Nagato's lvl.



EMS Madara has Kurama, EMS Sasuke just has a chakra construct waiting to be devoured by Preta Path.

You didn't understand my point, I said Perfect Susanoo makes no difference because it can be absorbed. And having something like BM just means he has something that can match Naruto.
It does not mean he has BSM Naruto's capabilities and thus by the law of transitivity he must be superior to Nagato. You fail to account for Sasuke's actual capabilities with this approach.

So your choice of portrayal says Sasuke can fight on Naruto's level. Not that Sasuke can take Nagato, that's a point you incorrectly derived from the portrayal.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 11, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> EMS Madara has Kurama, EMS Sasuke just has a chakra construct waiting to be devoured by Preta Path.


Not if Sasuke obliterates him first with a mountain busting shock wave.


> You didn't understand my point, I said Perfect Susanoo makes no difference because it can be absorbed. And having something like BM just means he has something that can match Naruto.


No it makes a big difference. EMS madara with only the PS he used against the gokage would easily stomp Nagato. Nagato isn't going to absorb this. If Sasuke has a PS similar to this he would easily stomp Nagato.


> It does not mean he has BSM Naruto's capabilities and thus by the law of transitivity he must be superior to Nagato. You fail to account for Sasuke's actual capabilities with this approach.


He doesn't need to have Naruto's capabilities. You don't need senjutsu in order to beat Nagato. You don't understand what I'm saying. Sasuke is portrayed to have a PS that is near Naruto's lvl. Since he is portrayed to have a PS that is near Naruto's lvl in power, by portrayal he is above Nagato since he is depicted to have a PS near Naruto's lvl in power. With a PS similar to Madara or Naruto in power he would be above Nagato but he hasn't shown feats with his PS yet.That was my point.


> So your choice of portrayal says Sasuke can fight on Naruto's level. Not that Sasuke can take Nagato, that's a point you incorrectly derived from the portrayal.


No it says that Sasuke has PS that it near Naruto's lvl in power. So drawing from the assumption that there is only one PS, he should be able to beat Nagato.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 11, 2013)

no he's not are you smoking? The only thing that would give nagato a problem is PS and thats already nullified due to BT so whats madara going to do after that? fire style that would just get absorbed?


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## DeK3iDE (Nov 11, 2013)

I haven't seen a thing from Sasuke yet that tells me he would be able to hold his own against 1 person using all 6 Rinnegan powers, or even 5 excluding GM. And that's w/o mentioning not having anything that says he's more powerful than Nagato when he's gotten power boosts from Kurama.


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## Arles Celes (Nov 11, 2013)

It depends.

Would Nagato be able to absorb the shockwave from Sasuke PS slash? Or a Kirin exploding in close proximity but not directed at him? How does he deal with Sasuke's very high speed without being able to move?

It is true that Nagato can probably absorb PS but said PS( and possibly even a regular Susanoo) makes all of his attacks useless too. ST would just push PS a bit, Ashura missiles would do nothing, summons would get cut easily...

It also remains to be seen if Nagato could resist Sasuke's genjutsu as Preta does not give genjutsu immunity from what I know.

Furthermore we had seen with Madara that if an attack is executed before the preta path user can react then ninjutsu CAN work like how Oonoki's powered up jinton damaged Madara while destroying all of his clones. Possibly if a preta path user is using a jutsu at that time he can't use preta path at the same time giving Sasuke an possible opening.

If Preta is so invincible then Nagato could even defeat Juubi Jin Naruto with an chakra avatar of all bijuus protecting him instead of just Kurama. I doubt that it would be the case.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 11, 2013)

Arles Celes said:


> It depends.
> 
> Would Nagato be able to absorb the shockwave from Sasuke PS slash? Or a Kirin exploding in close proximity but not directed at him? How does he deal with Sasuke's very high speed without being able to move?
> 
> ...


Nagato cant absorb a shockwave but he wont need to because he can just use his gravitational powers and not let the shockwave touch him kind of what Tendo did to the Rasenshuriken and even if PS makes all his attacks useless hes not going to be able to use PS due to Bansho Tenin he can just pull sasuke out of the PS and from their sasuke loses cause nothing else would give nagato a run for his money. You guys seem to sleep on Bansho Tenin


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## Ersa (Nov 11, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> A cripple emcaicated Nagato mannaged to out_shunshin_ his own _Shinra Tensei_ and blitz Killer B from several hundred meters, a mobile Nagato would be capable of dodging Sasuke's non mountain range one shooting sword swings quite comfortable, assuming Gedo Mazo doesn't step in (which it canonically does with Nagato).


If Nagato is capable of straight-up blitzing Killer B (a top tier speedster) I fail to see why Kabuto would complain about his mobility. I don't view that feat as a legitimate blitz because of the S/T distracting B. Except we have no idea on how fast mobile Nagato is save he's faster than crippled Nagato. 

Considering a senjutsu-powered version of Sasuke's PS sword destroyed the Sage of Six Path's swords. I fail to see why Sasuke's normal PS sword wouldn't at least be a mountain razer like Madara. His eyes were stated to have even greater potential that a top tier Uchiha like Itachi's. Nothing suggests that Sasuke's PS is weaker then Madara's, everything points to the opposite. Even if it is weaker, it won't be by much and I doubt a crippled Nagato is outrunning it's AOE. 



> Why wouldn't he be able to activate _Fujustu Kuyin_ in time? He's a sensor, can see chakra buildup and has quite literally the _best_ multi tasking feats in the manga bar Naruto thanks to his clones


I'll concede this.



> Couldn't Nagato just disperse the clouds with _Ujizokai no Jutsu_?


Doesn't _Ujizokai no Jutsu_ only allow Nagato to control the rain not clouds. Do you have the DB entry for it?



> Gedo Mazo chakra roars that bitch back , but in all seriousness, it should be more than capable of shielding him as unlike Obito, Nagato likes camp under neath it


Sasuke knocks Gedo Mazo down and then blasts Nagato with Kirin.



> Killer B back handed Kokuo 3km across the _Biju Hamachimi_ crater... When Sasuke's PS shows strength feats like that then we can argue. If it comes down to hacking away with his sword... Gedo Mazo nuked *itself* along with 90% of the 4th division with a _Kirin_ level lighting spam to blow up _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_ (something the size of the Uchiha hide out), Sasuke's sword is going to be child's play to that thing especially when it's actively attacking.


That's impressive but as Madara claimed PS = Bijuu in power; (Viz mentions it's even stronger). Unless Sasuke's is a pissweak version of PS that is weaker than Bijuu I struggle to see why a few Enton powered PS slashes won't sit Gedo Mazo on his ass.



> Gedo Mazo eats a sword swing grabs Sasuke's PS by the face and slams it into the ground Juubito style..... and Nagato goes to town


We'll have to agree to disagree here; until Sauce shows more feats. But as I said even if Sauce's PS is weaker (which it shouldn't) I can't see Gedo Mazo tanking it.



> Lets not forget Sasuke was being juiced by Naruto's V1 Cloak and Juugo's CS2 (the former which gives him 3+ times amount of chakra)... I'd think a lone Sasuke's PS would be around the formers level in terms of durability and firepower


Hashirama had the cloak and it didn't change his jutsu at all. The boost seems much smaller for top tiers. Otherwise why wouldn't Hashirama with a 3x Buddha absolutely mess up Madara? CS2 makes no difference to Susanoo's power save for adding senjutsu to it's attacks, plus SM >>>>>>>> CS2.

Sasuke lost the cloak after being slammed into the ground CST-style.



> That god tier was induced with PIS like every other villain. It's like saying Pain Arc SM Naruto could beat Edo Itachi because he was capable of defeating the _Pein Rikudo_. Obito could have literally set up the barrier used 4 Juubidama's and the manga would have ended right then and their.... all on a whim


If we neglected PIS; there'd be little to no feats we could use. There was PIS however it stands they survived against one of Narutoverse's Gods, got slammed into the ground by the same guy who busted the Hokage barrier (which tanked a Juubidama) and defeated the said God in the end. 

Edo Itachi could defeat the Pein Rikudo though  Not Nagato himself however.



> I think we all can agree Sasuke is literally on verge of being stronger than Nagato, he really just need better PS feats, thats all.


I think he's a bit stronger at this stage, not by much. We'll agree to disagree here as well.



> The thing is _Fujutsu Kuyin_ works based on chakra _quantity_ not _size_ and has absorbed Biju level chakra constructs, where as Yata hasn't been shown to tank really anything


Yata and Preta have both not shown their limits (Yata was not busted by Kirin btw). It's the same thing. It's NLF to claim Preta can easily suck up all of PS just as it's NLF to assume Yata can tank Juubidama.



> It took longer to absorb an FRS than it took to absorb SM Jiraiyas _Senpo: Gomen_, despite the latter being literally 1000's of times larger. Then we have the fact that an emaciated Nagato's _Fujutsu Kuyin_ absorbed a V2 cloak in seconds, shows it can handle Biju level quantities something that i doubt Sasuke's PS exceeds


A V2 cloak is nothing compared to Perfect Susanoo. FRS contains far more chakra than Jiraiya's Gomen.



> Now I'm not going to say _Fujustu Kuyin_ can absorb a _Juubidama_ or a _Super Bijudama_, but a Biju sized _Sasuno'o_ is a little more realistic when it's already absorbed Biju _level_ amounts of chakra in seconds


Sasuke's PS size is not capped at 50% BM Naruto size; Madara's downsized his PS to fit 100% Kyuubi (stablized PS is taller than 100% Kyuubi); V2 cloak isn't an enormous amount of chakra, it's a fair bit but even Samehada sliced off most of B's V2 cloak in one hit. It doesn't compare to a Bijuu+ sized chakra construct.




> Everything I didn't comment on I agree with


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## ueharakk (Nov 11, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato cant absorb a shockwave but he wont need to because he can just use his gravitational powers and not let the shockwave touch him kind of what Tendo did to the Rasenshuriken


considering the shockwave is... a shockwave and not actually a ninjutsu, nagato is going to have to match the power of the shockwave with a gravity wave (or at least the part of the shockwave that would have hit nagato).  he's going to tire out quickly if he has to do that again and again.



sanninme rikudo said:


> and even if PS makes all his attacks useless hes not going to be able to use PS due to Bansho Tenin he can just pull sasuke out of the PS and from their sasuke loses cause nothing else would give nagato a run for his money. You guys seem to sleep on Bansho Tenin


Banshou tennin can't pull him out of PS.  Nagato has shown us that his powers can't affect objects on another side of a barrier.  That's why he needed to open the chameleon's mouth in order to *shinra tensei naruto, bee and itachi.*  He can't affect them if there's a wall of flesh in between him and them and he can't affect Sasuke if there's a wall of chakra between him and sasuke.  He'd have to banshou tennin the entire technique.

but lets pretend he could banshou tennin just sasuke.  Why would that rip him out of PS?  PS users stay in the diamond which is way more durable and a complete defense than the ribcage which is somewhat permeable.  The Diamond protected madara from hashirama's shinsuusenjuu fists.  that thing is solid and Sasuke wouldn't phase through it, he'd just get pressed up against the glass.


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## Arles Celes (Nov 11, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato cant absorb a shockwave but he wont need to because he can just use his gravitational powers and not let the shockwave touch him kind of what Tendo did to the Rasenshuriken and even if PS makes all his attacks useless hes not going to be able to use PS due to Bansho Tenin he can just pull sasuke out of the PS and from their sasuke loses cause nothing else would give nagato a run for his money. You guys seem to sleep on Bansho Tenin



I'm not sure if a regular ST can withstand the power of a mountain cutting PS slash. The ST he used to destroy Konoha sure, but I wonder if he can use it with impunity.

And Naruto in KCM resisted BT by using a chakra arm to grab his surroundings. Sasuke may create a chakra arm too for the same effect.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> If Nagato is capable of straight-up blitzing Killer B (a top tier speedster) I fail to see why Kabuto would complain about his mobility. I don't view that feat as a legitimate blitz because of the S/T distracting B. Except we have no idea on how fast mobile Nagato is save he's faster than crippled Nagato.
> 
> Considering a senjutsu-powered version of Sasuke's PS sword destroyed the Sage of Six Path's swords. I fail to see why Sasuke's normal PS sword wouldn't at least be a mountain razer like Madara. His eyes were stated to have even greater potential that a top tier Uchiha like Itachi's. Nothing suggests that Sasuke's PS is weaker then Madara's, everything points to the opposite. Even if it is weaker, it won't be by much and I doubt a crippled Nagato is outrunning it's AOE.
> 
> ...


you seem to keep mentioning sasuke's PS a lot as if nagato cant just BT him out of it then soul rip him


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## Ersa (Nov 11, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> you seem to keep mentioning sasuke's PS a lot as if nagato cant just BT him out of it then soul rip him


ueharakk made some excellent points on that actually, I suggest you read his post. No top tier is falling to BT + Soul Rip anyways.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> @IchiLiebe; I'm really not going to bother to address any of your points because you're resorting to attacks and simply claiming Sasuke doesn't have Perfect Susanoo when it's blatantly obvious he does (Tengu mask, he claims this is the same thing Madara did).


 Then show me 1 single feat of Sasuke's perfect Susanoo...JUST ONE. Then Ill say he gots PS, but until then Im not going to *assume* that he does based on what has been shown to date in the mange(could change Wednesday).





> I also wouldn't call someone the worst debater when you believe Mei would easily defeat Itachi.
> 
> .


Mei wreck Itachi any form any day, anytime.


No knowledge, forest area or any area, or what ever fucking stipulations other than acid mist being restricted.


Acid mist has a large AOE, made of chakra, so there goes seeing Chakra to be able to locate an opponent, also Kakashi wasn't able to locate Zabuza. Acid Mist also has shown to be able to melt through Susanoo.

What you said just goes to show how biased you really are on subjects pertaining to your lord and savior Itachi Uchiha.



@Whomever said that preta wouldn't be able to absorb a genjutsu. First of all Sasukes hasn't shown to be able to knock people with 3 tomoe+ sharingan out cold. Second genjutsu is shot into the opponents body, so technically it can be absorbed.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> ueharakk made some excellent points on that actually, I suggest you read his post. No top tier is falling to BT + Soul Rip anyways.



HIs post are almost as funny as yours.

Yall keep saying Sasuke has PS, and yet to provide 1 feat.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 11, 2013)

ueharakk said:


> considering the shockwave is... a shockwave and not actually a ninjutsu, nagato is going to have to match the power of the shockwave with a gravity wave (or at least the part of the shockwave that would have hit nagato).  he's going to tire out quickly if he has to do that again and again.
> 
> 
> Banshou tennin can't pull him out of PS.  Nagato has shown us that his powers can't affect objects on another side of a barrier.  That's why he needed to open the chameleon's mouth in order to *shinra tensei naruto, bee and itachi.*  He can't affect them if there's a wall of flesh in between him and them and he can't affect Sasuke if there's a wall of chakra between him and sasuke.  He'd have to banshou tennin the entire technique.
> ...


he opened the chameleon's mouth because he would harm the chameleon and you cant just come in and out of a chameleon like you can with susanoo susanoo is only defensive to the opponent but other than that people using it seem to slip out fine so BT will just pull him out of it


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## Joakim3 (Nov 11, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> If Nagato is capable of straight-up blitzing Killer B (a top tier speedster) I fail to see why Kabuto would complain about his mobility. I don't view that feat as a legitimate blitz because of the S/T distracting B. Except we have no idea on how fast mobile Nagato is save he's faster than crippled Nagato.



Nagato was limited to just burst of speed. The only time he physically moved in that fight was getting on his bird summon, blitzing Killer B and then jumping to a restrained Naruto's location. The blitzing of Killer B isn't what was impressive and yes ST did distract, it was the fact Nagato managed to get to Killer B's location before the man hit the ground. 

Thats what is so impressive when you take into account how damn fast ST is



Kyokan said:


> Considering a senjutsu-powered version of Sasuke's PS sword destroyed the Sage of Six Path's swords. I fail to see why Sasuke's normal PS sword wouldn't at least be a mountain razer like Madara. His eyes were stated to have even greater potential that a top tier Uchiha like Itachi's. Nothing suggests that Sasuke's PS is weaker then Madara's, everything points to the opposite. Even if it is weaker, it won't be by much and I doubt a crippled Nagato is outrunning it's AOE.



Key word... senjutsu.

Onmyoton was capable of surviving *4 Juubidama*, but Obito's ultimate battle shield was broken by 10_ Senpo: Odama Rasengans_. _Anything_ Senjutsu is quite literally super effective against Obito or his _Onmyoton_ constructs (which the sword is made of)

Sure portrayal wise yes Sasuke should very well be stronger than Nagato, feat wise his PS hasn't obliterated 10km of landscape though, and I'd seriously doubt he has the chakra levels of Madara seeing his actually has to be stabilized due to it's ~2km size



Kyokan said:


> I'll concede this.



Cool



Kyokan said:


> Doesn't _Ujizokai no Jutsu_ only allow Nagato to control the rain not clouds. Do you have the DB entry for it?



Nagato forms the clouds as well as the rain, he does it every sunday

I could only find the Japanese version atm, but ill dig it up



Kyokan said:


> Sasuke knocks Gedo Mazo down and then blasts Nagato with Kirin.



Again feat wise, seeing Gedo Mazo is larger than Sasuke's current PS, and it lacks strengths feats, I don't really see the force of a sword swing (seeing it can be buffered a chakra roar) is knocking it down when it has the physical strength to stop several millions tons for force by _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_



Kyokan said:


> That's impressive but as Madara claimed PS = Bijuu in power; (Viz mentions it's even stronger). Unless Sasuke's is a pissweak version of PS that is weaker than Bijuu I struggle to see why a few Enton powered PS slashes won't sit Gedo Mazo on his ass.



He called _his_ PS equal in power as he was the sole PS user up until Sasuke did it. We have no barring on how each stacks up to each other atm other than Sasuke achieved a _level_ no one other than Madara has



Kyokan said:


> We'll have to agree to disagree here; until Sauce shows more feats. But as I said even if Sauce's PS is weaker (which it shouldn't) I can't see Gedo Mazo tanking it.



Gedo Mazo survived it's own _Kirin_ level attack without zero damage what so ever, all just to simply to obltirate _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_, something Sasuke's sword swing (the PS sword isn't any bigger than his V3) could not achieve. We are talking about the shell of _Shinju_ powered by 7 biju here



Kyokan said:


> Hashirama had the cloak and it didn't change his jutsu at all. The boost seems much smaller for top tiers. Otherwise why wouldn't Hashirama with a 3x Buddha absolutely mess up Madara? CS2 makes no difference to Susanoo's power save for adding senjutsu to it's attacks, plus SM >>>>>>>> CS2.



Because Hashirama, has chakra levels comparable to the entire V1 chakra alliance... Sasuke does not. There is a reason Sasuke's grew legs and increased to Biju size the second Naruto gave him the V1 cloak 



Kyokan said:


> Sasuke lost the cloak after being slammed into the ground CST-style.



Which could arguably happen again if we power scale Tendo's CST to Nagato's own



Kyokan said:


> If we neglected PIS; there'd be little to no feats we could use. There was PIS however it stands they survived against one of Narutoverse's Gods, got slammed into the ground by the same guy who busted the Hokage barrier (which tanked a Juubidama) and defeated the said God in the end.



Sure we can... PIS only dictates certain actions the character _chooses_ to do, the actual action (or result of an action) itself is still very much valid to be used in the battledome



Kyokan said:


> Edo Itachi could defeat the Pein Rikudo though  Not Nagato himself however.



Gedo Mazo and CT, ends the King whether he's alive or not..... lol



Kyokan said:


> I think he's a bit stronger at this stage, not by much. We'll agree to disagree here as well.



Again feat wise he's knocking at Nagato's front door with a S.W.A.T. team, portrayal & hype wise I'm in the same boat as you in EMS Sasuke being stronger



Kyokan said:


> Yata and Preta have both not shown their limits (Yata was not busted by Kirin btw). It's the same thing. It's NLF to claim Preta can easily suck up all of PS just as it's NLF to assume Yata can tank Juubidama.



Feat wise Itachi's V2.5 Sasuno'o (the fastest version he can auto spawn) would have not survived nor protected him from Kirin, when Danzo's _Fuuton_ was blowing open MS Sasuke's V3.

It's HIGHLY implied _Yata's Mirror_ was the reason Itachi survived that attack (seeing that was the first thing he erected after _Sasuno'o_ again)



Kyokan said:


> A V2 cloak is nothing compared to Perfect Susanoo. FRS contains far more chakra than Jiraiya's Gomen.



The problem is chakra _quantity_ wise a V2 cloak would compare to a PS (in regards to current Sasukes). KN6 Naruto feat wise has more firepower than an V1+CS2 EMS Sasuke's V3 _Sasuno'o_ via _Bijudama_ spammage, and created a shockwave felt across the CST crater from merely transforming

The problem is the amount of chakra a Biju has is so astronomically idiotic, even their partial transformations _chakra levels_ can be compared directly to max level chakra constructs like _Sasuno'o_



Kyokan said:


> Sasuke's PS size is not capped at 50% BM Naruto size; Madara's downsized his PS to fit 100% Kyuubi (stablized PS is taller than 100% Kyuubi);



Lets put it this way, seeing PS is essentially just another layer on top of lv4.. Madara's Lv4 (and 2.5) was taller than *Tengai Shinsei* *before* he stabilized it to form PS

.....where as Sasuke's Lv3 was no larger than BSM Naruto (and that was to show boat in-front of Naruto by cutting Shinju's 500m branch)

If that doesn't say something..... Idk what else does



Kyokan said:


> V2 cloak isn't an enormous amount of chakra, it's a fair bit but even Samehada sliced off most of B's V2 cloak in one hit. It doesn't compare to a Bijuu+ sized chakra construct.



Kisame was capable of robbing Gyuki of so much chakra, that he was incapable of entering BM to save Killer B from having his legs chopped off.... and Kisame _shaved_ Killer B/Gyuki a total of 3x times in that fight. Based on that alone V2 carries a SUBSTANTIAL amount of chakra relative the bijou.

Just look at KN6 Naruto and the insanity that was, seeing that had more firepower that Sasuke's V3 and physically hurt the air when it Naruto entered it. V2 is essentially the full Biju compressed into a human sized package, with only limiting factor being the amount of firepower they can produce due to their size 



Kyokan said:


>



I was being truthful


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## Ersa (Nov 12, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Nagato was limited to just burst of speed. The only time he physically moved in that fight was getting on his bird summon, blitzing Killer B and then jumping to a restrained Naruto's location. The blitzing of Killer B isn't what was impressive and yes ST did distract, it was the fact Nagato managed to get to Killer B's location before the man hit the ground.
> 
> Thats what is so impressive when you take into account how damn fast ST is


The problem is we have a statement claiming Nagato's mobility is awful (which includes speed obviously). The fact that Kabuto attributed his loss to that is a better indication of Nagato's level of speed that a questionable speed feat.



> Key word... senjutsu.
> 
> Onmyoton was capable of surviving *4 Juubidama*, but Obito's ultimate battle shield was broken by 10_ Senpo: Odama Rasengans_. _Anything_ Senjutsu is quite literally super effective against Obito or his _Onmyoton_ constructs (which the sword is made of)


Onmyoton can still block senjutsu however, just not very well. The fact that the sword break through even enhanced by senjutsu is an indication that the sword has to be powerful.



> Sure portrayal wise yes Sasuke should very well be stronger than Nagato, feat wise his PS hasn't obliterated 10km of landscape though, and I'd seriously doubt he has the chakra levels of Madara seeing his actually has to be stabilized due to it's ~2km size


Sasuke's chakra levels are absolutely insane now. Previously using Amaterasu and skeletal Susanoo would have him on his knees in agony; even Zetsu regenerating his chakra didn't help much. EMS Sasuke whips out V4 Susanoo for fodders, spams Enton/Amaterasu/V3 Susanoo in his all his fights and doesn't look remotely phased. He should have comparable stamina to Madara now.



> Nagato forms the clouds as well as the rain, he does it every sunday
> 
> I could only find the Japanese version atm, but ill dig it up


I found an extract somewhere saying it was only control of the clouds. But I think the DB entry is more reliable.



> Again feat wise, seeing Gedo Mazo is larger than Sasuke's current PS, and it lacks strengths feats, I don't really see the force of a sword swing (seeing it can be buffered a chakra roar) is knocking it down when it has the physical strength to stop several millions tons for force by _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_


Gedo Mazo isn't much bigger than the Hachibi and Sasuke should be able to make his PS bigger than BM Naruto if Madara's can make his bigger than 100% Kurama. 



> He called _his_ PS equal in power as he was the sole PS user up until Sasuke did it. We have no barring on how each stacks up to each other atm other than Sasuke achieved a _level_ no one other than Madara has


Why shouldn't Sasuke's be comparable? He's set on course to surpass Madara and the manga is about to end. Even if it was weaker it's still enough to deal with the Gedo Mazo.



> Gedo Mazo survived it's own _Kirin_ level attack without zero damage what so ever, all just to simply to obltirate _Doton: Sando no Jutsu_, something Sasuke's sword swing (the PS sword isn't any bigger than his V3) could not achieve. We are talking about the shell of _Shinju_ powered by 7 biju here


The shell of Shinju that got pounded to the ground by Hachibi and KCM Naruto. Who got held back by Choji and Choza. I agree the Gedo Mazo is a beastly summon and will play a role here but I don't think it compares to PS.



> Because Hashirama, has chakra levels comparable to the entire V1 chakra alliance... Sasuke does not. There is a reason Sasuke's grew legs and increased to Biju size the second Naruto gave him the V1 cloak


Sasuke's stamina is not as high as Hashirama's but it's definitely up there now. The point is Hashirama did not receive the 3x boost, considering EMS Sasuke is in a similar tier to base Hashirama, it's likely he didn't get it either.  Legs are a trait of the EMS and there's no proof Sasuke couldn't make a Bijuu-sized V3 considering his current stamina levels.




> Which could arguably happen again if we power scale Tendo's CST to Nagato's own


Busting Naruto's Juubidama tanking cloak >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CST.



> Sure we can... PIS only dictates certain actions the character _chooses_ to do, the actual action (or result of an action) itself is still very much valid to be used in the battledome


He still tried to beat them (smacking them into the ground with his Juubi level strength) and they got back up.



> Gedo Mazo and CT, ends the King whether he's alive or not..... lol


I doubt Gedo Mazo is an IC move for Pein; also Itachi can go all-out with clones, Amaterasu and Susanoo from the getgo. As long as he kills Deva and Naraka quickly, he can then play volleyball with the rest. And considering Susanoo formation is much faster than Itachi himself who is faster than Deva to begin with; he has a solid chance of doing so. Let's not argue that here though.



> Again feat wise he's knocking at Nagato's front door with a S.W.A.T. team, portrayal & hype wise I'm in the same boat as you in EMS Sasuke being stronger


Portrayal he's much stronger; feats he's a bit stronger imo. 



> Feat wise Itachi's V2.5 Sasuno'o (the fastest version he can auto spawn) would have not survived nor protected him from Kirin, when Danzo's _Fuuton_ was blowing open MS Sasuke's V3.
> 
> It's HIGHLY implied _Yata's Mirror_ was the reason Itachi survived that attack (seeing that was the first thing he erected after _Sasuno'o_ again)


It makes no sense for Kishimoto to say Yata is invincible after it got busted. I mean there's some bad writing in Naruto but Kishimoto is not borderline stupid. He didn't make Obito claim the Rikudo Sword was unbeatable after it broke. As it stands we have no idea what Itachi took Kirin with.



> The problem is chakra _quantity_ wise a V2 cloak would compare to a PS (in regards to current Sasukes). KN6 Naruto feat wise has more firepower than an V1+CS2 EMS Sasuke's V3 _Sasuno'o_ via _Bijudama_ spammage, and created a shockwave felt across the CST crater from merely transforming
> 
> The problem is the amount of chakra a Biju has is so astronomically idiotic, even their partial transformations _chakra levels_ can be compared directly to max level chakra constructs like _Sasuno'o_.


We have no comparsion between Susanoo's chakra levels and a Bijuu's. If we assume Hashirama have chakra equal to 50% Kurama who in turn is stronger than 5 Bijuu then I don't see why Madara/Sasuke's PS can't have chakras similar to the weaker Bijuu.



> Lets put it this way, seeing PS is essentially just another layer on top of lv4.. Madara's Lv4 (and 2.5) was taller than *Tengai Shinsei* *before* he stabilized it to form PS
> 
> .....where as Sasuke's Lv3 was no larger than BSM Naruto (and that was to show boat in-front of Naruto by cutting Shinju's 500m branch)
> 
> If that doesn't say something..... Idk what else does


The PS whipped out against the Kages was 1km+ tall; the one in the VOTE fight was no bigger than 100% Kurama who is at best 200m tall. EMS users can alter the size of their PS.




> Kisame was capable of robbing Gyuki of so much chakra, that he was incapable of entering BM to save Killer B from having his legs chopped off.... and Kisame _shaved_ Killer B/Gyuki a total of 3x times in that fight. Based on that alone V2 carries a SUBSTANTIAL amount of chakra relative the bijou.
> 
> Just look at KN6 Naruto and the insanity that was, seeing that had more firepower that Sasuke's V3 and physically hurt the air when it Naruto entered it. V2 is essentially the full Biju compressed into a human sized package, with only limiting factor being the amount of firepower they can produce due to their size


B also used V1 a few times and going by Kurama's word a Bijuu can only give so much chakra before they have to gather more. V2 is a hefty amount but it's still pretty small compared to the Bijuu itself.



> I was being truthful


I know, I was only trolling


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## Jagger (Nov 12, 2013)

Guys, stop saying Nagato has blitzed someone because it has never happened. A non-crippled Nagato does not exist in this plot. We know nothing of how agile or fast Nagato was before Hanzo lethally damaged his legs forever.

However, anyone saying Sasuke wins the fight with a moderate difficulty is severely underestimating Nagato.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 12, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Guys, stop saying Nagato has blitzed someone because it has never happened. A non-crippled Nagato does not exist in this plot. We know nothing of how agile or fast Nagato was before Hanzo lethally damaged his legs forever.
> 
> However, anyone saying Sasuke wins the fight with a moderate difficulty is severely underestimating Nagato.



Why not? 

It canonically *did happen* seeing Nagato got to Killer B before he hit the ground, which is blitz imho. Nagato was limited in mobility in the fact he could only use a burst of speed (said burst just happened to be border line top tier)


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## Joakim3 (Nov 12, 2013)

Kyokan said:


> The problem is we have a statement claiming Nagato's mobility is awful (which includes speed obviously). The fact that Kabuto attributed his loss to that is a better indication of Nagato's level of speed that a questionable speed feat.



Mobility =/= speed

His lack of mobility was just that, mobility. I.e he simply could not move spot to spot very well, the thing is when he did move, he was capable of doing it incredibly rapidly 



Kyokan said:


> Onmyoton can still block senjutsu however, just not very well. The fact that the sword break through even enhanced by senjutsu is an indication that the sword has to be powerful.



The fact Naruto chose to break Obtio's sheild with 10 BSM _Senpo: Odoama Rasengans_ rather than just cleaving it in two with the sword, kind of implies it's not the last word in all out power, unlike Madara... which is



Kyokan said:


> Sasuke's chakra levels are absolutely insane now. Previously using Amaterasu and skeletal Susanoo would have him on his knees in agony; even Zetsu regenerating his chakra didn't help much. EMS Sasuke whips out V4 Susanoo for fodders, spams Enton/Amaterasu/V3 Susanoo in his all his fights and doesn't look remotely phased. He should have comparable stamina to Madara now.



Sure Sasuke has reached the uber tier, but the chakra scale is not linear. Madara covered a 100% Kurama with PS, while keeping it under control via Genjustu and then actively fought SM Hashirama for 2 damn chapters, and then still fought him after that. 

Not even factoring his feat of a 24 hour none stop bought against the Senju clan (including Hashi & Tobirama).... solo



Kyokan said:


> I found an extract somewhere saying it was only control of the clouds. But I think the DB entry is more reliable.



Agree



Kyokan said:


> Gedo Mazo isn't much bigger than the Hachibi and Sasuke should be able to make his PS bigger than BM Naruto if Madara's can make his bigger than 100% Kurama.



Gedo Mazo is almost twice the height of Gyuki?

Because Sasuke doesn't have the chakra levels of Madara, and the fact when Sasuke show boats flamboyantly the he makes a Biju sized V3 CS2 _Sasuno'o_, not 2km tall V4 to express his power >>> yours



Kyokan said:


> Why shouldn't Sasuke's be comparable? He's set on course to surpass Madara and the manga is about to end. Even if it was weaker it's still enough to deal with the Gedo Mazo.



He set on a course... to surpass Madara in the same manner he was on a course to surpass Nagato, both of which he was compared to.

The fact that feat wise he has just reached Nagato+ levels means nothing when EMS Madara would obliterate Nagato with almost no difficulty



Kyokan said:


> The shell of Shinju that got pounded to the ground by Hachibi and KCM Naruto. Who got held back by Choji and Choza. I agree the Gedo Mazo is a beastly summon and will play a role here but I don't think it compares to PS.



Again strength wise Gyuki is arguably as strong as BM Naruto... so I don't see how thats a bad thing when Gedo Mazo can tank it with zero damage in anyway

Um.. Choji & Choza both attacked with a twin blow, Gedo Mazo stepped back & with one chakra roar sent them across the battlefield, BM style. Sasuke feat wise has literally zero ways of taking Gedo Mazo down, and outlasting it is impossible unless your name is BSM Naruto or Shinju



Kyokan said:


> Sasuke's stamina is not as high as Hashirama's but it's definitely up there now. The point is Hashirama did not receive the 3x boost, considering EMS Sasuke is in a similar tier to base Hashirama, it's likely he didn't get it either.  Legs are a trait of the EMS and there's no proof Sasuke couldn't make a Bijuu-sized V3 considering his current stamina levels.



Um Sasuke made a CS2 V3 to cut Shinju's branch off...... Seeing in terms of using obesely overkill techs to deal with the smallest of factors, Sasuke and Madara are the same, id think if Sasuke could he would have made a larger V3



Kyokan said:


> Busting Naruto's Juubidama tanking cloak >>>>>>>>>>>>>> CST.



Disregarding tanking a Juubilaser isn't the same as surviving 200+ mt of blunt force trauma.. Tendo's CST produced a crater roughly the same size & depth as the one Obito produced, both of which used blunt force trauma to achieve there lvl of destruction

They are comfortably in the same ball park of force



Kyokan said:


> He still tried to beat them (smacking them into the ground with his Juubi level strength) and they got back up.



Sure CST won't kill Sasuke, but give Nagato an opportunity to capitalize on his _Sasuno'o_ less-ness yes it would



Kyokan said:


> I doubt Gedo Mazo is an IC move for Pein; also Itachi can go all-out with clones, Amaterasu and Susanoo from the getgo. As long as he kills Deva and Naraka quickly, he can then play volleyball with the rest. And considering Susanoo formation is much faster than Itachi himself who is faster than Deva to begin with; he has a solid chance of doing so. Let's not argue that here though.



Um if Itachi instantly brings out V3+ (which he would facing a Rinnegan user) Nagato isn't going to play any games at that point. _Sasuno'o_ formation is no faster than a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ activation time... so it has no wins in that regards



Kyokan said:


> Portrayal he's much stronger; feats he's a bit stronger imo.



Sure portrayal wise yes he is...... feat wise, he still dies the second Nagato uses a boss sized ST + CT combo



Kyokan said:


> It makes no sense for Kishimoto to say Yata is invincible after it got busted. I mean there's some bad writing in Naruto but Kishimoto is not borderline stupid. He didn't make Obito claim the Rikudo Sword was unbeatable after it broke. As it stands we have no idea what Itachi took Kirin with.



Kishimoto never said Yata Mirror was invincible, he said Itachi was in conjuction with the sword of Totsuka. 

Um V2.5 _Sasuno'o_ really doesn't have the feats saying it could defend against Kirin when a weight enhanced Ei foddered Madara's V3. Every notion points to Yata's Mirror being the reason Itachi survived



Kyokan said:


> We have no comparsion between Susanoo's chakra levels and a Bijuu's. If we assume Hashirama have chakra equal to 50% Kurama who in turn is stronger than 5 Bijuu then I don't see why Madara/Sasuke's PS can't have chakras similar to the weaker Bijuu.



Hashirama doesn't have chakra levels comparable to 50% Kurama, he compared his SM levels to the amount Naruto was giving out to the alliance, major difference. Hell, Shinju was chasing Killer B more than it was chasing Hashirama and Madara kinda emphasis that the Jin/Biju have a truly absurd amount of chakra

The problem is Biju 1-7 (in terms of chakra reserves) are fodder compared to Gyuki who has significantly less compared to Kurama. 



Kyokan said:


> The PS whipped out against the Kages was 1km+ tall; the one in the VOTE fight was no bigger than 100% Kurama who is at best 200m tall. EMS users can alter the size of their PS.



Thats fine, but unlike Sasuke, Madara used his lvl4 and maintained a skeletal version as well at ~2km in size. Sasuke has never shown anything even remotely approaching that ball park seeing all PS is is another layer onto of lvl4



Kyokan said:


> B also used V1 a few times and going by Kurama's word a Bijuu can only give so much chakra before they have to gather more. V2 is a hefty amount but it's still pretty small compared to the Bijuu itself.



Yeah when in relative terms to the Biju itself. Naruto's KN6 could theoretically hold as much chakra as the full Sanbi due to Kurama having that much damn chakra



Kyokan said:


> I know, I was only trolling


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 12, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Guys, stop saying Nagato has blitzed someone because it has never happened. A non-crippled Nagato does not exist in this plot. We know nothing of how agile or fast Nagato was before Hanzo lethally damaged his legs forever.
> 
> However, anyone saying Sasuke wins the fight with a moderate difficulty is severely underestimating Nagato.


anyone saying sasuke wins at all is underestimating nagato


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 12, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Not if Sasuke obliterates him first with a mountain busting shock wave.



So you concede; PS will just be absorbed. The slash can be dodged.



> No it makes a big difference. EMS madara with only the PS he used against the gokage would easily stomp Nagato. Nagato isn't going to absorb this. If Sasuke has a PS similar to this he would easily stomp Nagato.



Madara with only PS wouldn't do anything to Nagato. Nagato can absorb PS.

You have no real reason for why PS can't be absorbed. Your only defence is a slash that can be dodged.



> He doesn't need to have Naruto's capabilities. You don't need senjutsu in order to beat Nagato. You don't understand what I'm saying. Sasuke is portrayed to have a PS that is near Naruto's lvl. Since he is portrayed to have a PS that is near Naruto's lvl in power, by portrayal he is above Nagato since he is depicted to have a PS near Naruto's lvl in power. With a PS similar to Madara or Naruto in power he would be above Nagato but he hasn't shown feats with his PS yet.That was my point.



Your point is weak. You're only saying Sasuke can take Nagato because Naruto can. That logic is flawed and you're using portrayal in the wrong way.

It doesn't matter if Sasuke can match Naruto; he still lacks the abilities to match Nagato. The portrayal shows Sasuke has the abilities to match Naruto.

When you can prove Sasuke has anything like Kurama Mode and Sage Mode, then you can bring this point back again.

Your PS being featless is still weak because you're failing to actually address the Preta argument.



> No it says that Sasuke has PS that it near Naruto's lvl in power. So drawing from the assumption that there is only one PS, he should be able to beat Nagato.



Not with your reasoning. Why? It is simple: you've only said "PS" and referred to a slash. Not at all explaining why Preta Path can't fodderise the jutsu like it does with other Ninjutsu. 

When your only defence is a slash that can be avoided, it suggests that you don't have a strong case.


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## Ersa (Nov 12, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Mobility =/= speed
> 
> His lack of mobility was just that, mobility. I.e he simply could not move spot to spot very well, the thing is when he did move, he was capable of doing it incredibly rapidly.


Speed factors into mobility, you can't be immobile and be incredibly quick over short distances. It doesn't work like that I feel.



> The fact Naruto chose to break Obtio's sheild with 10 BSM _Senpo: Odoama Rasengans_ rather than just cleaving it in two with the sword, kind of implies it's not the last word in all out power, unlike Madara... which is


C'mon you know Kishimoto wanted to use FT-level logic there, it was symbolising the nakama breaking the shield so the dynamic boyfriends could slice Obito in half. Hence the caption, "Who has friends will win" bs. It does not by any means suggest _Senpo COR_ > PS sword.




> Sure Sasuke has reached the uber tier, but the chakra scale is not linear. Madara covered a 100% Kurama with PS, while keeping it under control via Genjustu and then actively fought SM Hashirama for 2 damn chapters, and then still fought him after that.
> 
> Not even factoring his feat of a 24 hour none stop bought against the Senju clan (including Hashi & Tobirama).... solo


Yet Madara opted to pull out V3 Susanoo in the 24 hour fight against his strongest enemies while Sasuke proceeds to pull out both Enton and V4 Susanoo for fodders. 

And Sasuke has been spamming MS non-stop this whole war; he never looked fatigued apart from the time Obito smacked him into the ground. He may have put down Susanoo in the recent chapter but Naruto also pulled down his avatar. Sasuke's chakra is insane at the moment, comparable to Madara's I feel.



> Gedo Mazo is almost twice the height of Gyuki?
> 
> Because Sasuke doesn't have the chakra levels of Madara, and the fact when Sasuke show boats flamboyantly the he makes a Biju sized V3 CS2 _Sasuno'o_, not 2km tall V4 to express his power >>> yours


I don't think it's a stretch to say Sasuke might have reached EMS Madara levels of chakra. Making a V4 2km sized Susanoo against Obito is just asking to get nuked by Juubidamas and I doubt the Susanoo was to showboat.




> He set on a course... to surpass Madara in the same manner he was on a course to surpass Nagato, both of which he was compared to.
> 
> The fact that feat wise he has just reached Nagato+ levels means nothing when EMS Madara would obliterate Nagato with almost no difficulty


If you think EMS Madara stomps Nagato then Sasuke winning against Nagato shouldn't be too far-fetched. They have the same level of dojutsu, Sasuke has been stated to have one of the strongest eyes potential in all the history of the Uchiha and his current chakra levels are insane too and currently he's being portrayed to be equal to a being who would demolish Nagato.



> Again strength wise Gyuki is arguably as strong as BM Naruto... so I don't see how thats a bad thing when Gedo Mazo can tank it with zero damage in anyway
> 
> Um.. Choji & Choza both attacked with a twin blow, Gedo Mazo stepped back & with one chakra roar sent them across the battlefield, BM style. Sasuke feat wise has literally zero ways of taking Gedo Mazo down, and outlasting it is impossible unless your name is BSM Naruto or Shinju


Doubtful, Hachibi is not capable of Flash Shunshining and knocking away 5 Bijuudama (extremely heavy). Gyuki is nowhere near BM Naruto in strength, he's pretty strong though granted. 

Even if Gedo Mazo can get back up, Sasuke just needs to knock it down before nuking Nagato with Kirin. It's not a good feat for the Gedo Mazo to be pushed back by Choji of all people, when his punch didn't do much to Azuma.



> Um Sasuke made a CS2 V3 to cut Shinju's branch off...... Seeing in terms of using obesely overkill techs to deal with the smallest of factors, Sasuke and Madara are the same, id think if Sasuke could he would have made a larger V3


Sasuke doesn't showboat as much as Madara; why not make PS there for more power?



> Disregarding tanking a Juubilaser isn't the same as surviving 200+ mt of blunt force trauma.. Tendo's CST produced a crater roughly the same size & depth as the one Obito produced, both of which used blunt force trauma to achieve there lvl of destruction
> 
> They are comfortably in the same ball park of force.


It still shows how ludicrously durable his cloak is; I don't see a huge difference between tanking a concentrated beam of energy and the shockwave from a gravity push. And considering Katsuyu was enough to protect people pretty close to the epicentre of the CST, I'm confident Naruto's cloak would not be destroyed by CST.

I don't think getting slammed into the ground at BSM+ Naruto speeds is comparable to getting hit by a shockwave.



> Sure CST won't kill Sasuke, but give Nagato an opportunity to capitalize on his _Sasuno'o_ less-ness yes it would


Possibly blast him back and damage his Susanoo but it'll tire Nagato out immensely (Nagato has insane stamina but CST still takes a lot out of him), it won't bust Perfect Susanoo I feel. 



> Um if Itachi instantly brings out V3+ (which he would facing a Rinnegan user) Nagato isn't going to play any games at that point. _Sasuno'o_ formation is no faster than a boss sized _Shinra Tensei_ activation time... so it has no wins in that regards


Only to realize he blasted a clone with ST, I digress this is a matter we can discuss in another thread.



> Sure portrayal wise yes he is...... feat wise, he still dies the second Nagato uses a boss sized ST + CT combo


He proceeds to survive the ST with Susanoo and he has enough firepower to bust CT. Enton powered PS slashes should be close in power to the weaker Bijuudama, FRS and Yasaka used to bust CT.



> Kishimoto never said Yata Mirror was invincible, he said Itachi was in conjuction with the sword of Totsuka.
> 
> Um V2.5 _Sasuno'o_ really doesn't have the feats saying it could defend against Kirin when a weight enhanced Ei foddered Madara's V3. Every notion points to Yata's Mirror being the reason Itachi survived


Yet that would mean Kirin busted it which is not true as Kishimoto says right after it blocks any attack. Also we don't see which Susanoo form used, it's possible Itachi's V3 Susanoo had Kirin durability but Kishimoto retconned it later. 





> Hashirama doesn't have chakra levels comparable to 50% Kurama, he compared his SM levels to the amount Naruto was giving out to the alliance, major difference. Hell, Shinju was chasing Killer B more than it was chasing Hashirama and Madara kinda emphasis that the Jin/Biju have a truly absurd amount of chakra






> The problem is Biju 1-7 (in terms of chakra reserves) are fodder compared to Gyuki who has significantly less compared to Kurama.


Gyuki doesn't seem to have a great deal more than Bijuu 1-7; the only Bijuu whose difference is clear is Kurama.



> Thats fine, but unlike Sasuke, Madara used his lvl4 and maintained a skeletal version as well at ~2km in size. Sasuke has never shown anything even remotely approaching that ball park seeing all PS is is another layer onto of lvl4.


To be fair, EMS Madara never made a 2km either. His was only bigger than 100% Kurama. Sasuke doesn't need a 2km one to beat Nagato however. If his is similar to VOTE Madara's one I'm sure it'll suffice and considering he's only capable of making a PS slightly bigger than 50% Kurama, I don't think it's a stretch to say he might be capable of making the same sized PS Madara had at VOTE.



> Yeah when in relative terms to the Biju itself. Naruto's KN6 could theoretically hold as much chakra as the full Sanbi due to Kurama having that much damn chakra


Possibly but irrevelant as Nagato never absorbed Naruto's V2 cloak, only Gyuki's.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 12, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> So you concede; PS will just be absorbed. The slash can be dodged.


No it won't be absorbed. No Nagato isn't dodging the slash.  Concession accepted as you have failed yet again to show me these godly speed feats Nagato has. Madara is able to do this with just shockwaves from his PS swords. Now show me how Nagato is going to avoid someone spamming those slashes when just one of them is capable of obliterating multiple mountains. What speed feats does he have that prove he's going to avoid every single PS slash and then somehow get close enough to PS in order to absorb it?


> Madara with only PS wouldn't do anything to Nagato. Nagato can absorb PS.
> You have no real reason for why PS can't be absorbed. Your only defence is a slash that can be dodged.


I don't need to address preta path absorbing PS because Nagato isn't absorbing PS before the PS swords destroy him. Concession Accepted as you still haven't proved that Nagato has enough to speed to dodge it completely.


> Your point is weak. You're only saying Sasuke can take Nagato because Naruto can. That logic is flawed and you're using portrayal in the wrong way.


No Im saying he can take Nagato because he has PS. Him being portrayed as near equals with Naruto and just defeating jubbito together with Naruto is just to prove the point that by portrayal he is above Nagato.


> It doesn't matter if Sasuke can match Naruto; he still lacks the abilities to match Nagato. The portrayal shows Sasuke has the abilities to match Naruto.


PS is all Sasuke needs to match Nagato.


> When you can prove Sasuke has anything like Kurama Mode and Sage Mode, then you can bring this point back again.


Does Madara have KCM or SM? Yet he still beats Nagato. Like i said earlier PS is all he needs to match Nagato.


> Your PS being featless is still weak because you're failing to actually address the Preta argument.


 You're *STILL* failing to state how Nagato is going to stop those multi mountain busting slashes. All you are saying is "Nagato dodges and absorbs PS" without even giving any speed feats that prove what you're saying.


> Not with your reasoning. Why? It is simple: you've only said "PS" and referred to a slash. Not at all explaining why Preta Path can't fodderise the jutsu like it does with other Ninjutsu. When your only defence is a slash that can be avoided, it suggests that you don't have a strong case.


 Are you actually reading everything I'm posting? Because you are still ignoring half the things I wrote. First of all Preta path only absorbs ninjutsu. How is creating a massive shockwave just by swinging a sword a ninjutsu? Your logic is "preta path beats PS because it uses chakra" You haven't even stated how Nagato will get close enough to PS in order to absorb it and how he is going to absorb the whole thing before Sasuke kills him with another attack.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 12, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> No it won't be absorbed. No Nagato isn't dodging the slash.  Concession accepted as you have failed yet again to show me these godly speed feats Nagato has. Madara is able to do this with just shockwaves from his PS swords. Now show me how Nagato is going to avoid someone spamming those slashes when just one of them is capable of obliterating multiple mountains. What speed feats does he have that prove he's going to avoid every single PS slash and then somehow get close enough to PS in order to absorb it?
> 
> I don't need to address preta path absorbing PS because Nagato isn't absorbing PS before the PS swords destroy him. Concession Accepted as you still haven't proved that Nagato has enough to speed to dodge it completely.
> 
> ...


Nagato can also use the asura jet boosters to dodge the PS slash thats if nagato doesn't decide to BT him out of it first that being said nagato has quite a few ways to take down PS and from there what is sasuke going to do? give me a perfect argument saying how sasuke can by pass this


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## Rinnegan Zetsu (Nov 12, 2013)

LOL. Stop it. Nagato kills the fuck out of Sasuke.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 12, 2013)

sanninme rikudo said:


> Nagato can also use the asura jet boosters to dodge the PS slash thats if nagato doesn't decide to BT him out of it first that being said nagato has quite a few ways to take down PS and from there what is sasuke going to do? give me a perfect argument saying how sasuke can by pass this


Asura's jet boosters are not very fast. He couldn't even reach tsunade before SM naruto could blitz him from a good bit of distance away from the paths. Asura isn't fast enough to avoid this. Even if he avoids one he has to avoid another and another one and another one which isn't going to happen. Sasuke could also always finish Nagato off with kirin.


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## Joakim3 (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> Asura's jet boosters are not very fast. He couldn't even reach tsunade before SM naruto could blitz him from a good bit of distance away from the paths. Asura isn't fast enough to avoid this. Even if he avoids one he has to avoid another and another one and another one which isn't going to happen. Sasuke could also always finish Nagato off with kirin.



Shurado had 1/6th of Nagato's chakra at that point, and was in air (so dodging was impossible)...... Second SM Naruto isn't really slow by any standard. We are talking about a man who outmaneuvered the FRS fodder dodging Raikagenaut and Tendo. 

Nagato himself was capable of outrunning his own _Shinra Tensei_ and reaching Killer B before he hit through ground, he is comically fast. 

All assuming he doesn't camp under Gedo Mazo.. which Sasuke he has ZERO way of putting down (feat wise at least)


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> No it won't be absorbed. No Nagato isn't dodging the slash.  Concession accepted as you have failed yet again to show me these godly speed feats Nagato has. Madara is able to do this with just shockwaves from his PS swords. Now show me how Nagato is going to avoid someone spamming those slashes when just one of them is capable of obliterating multiple mountains. What speed feats does he have that prove he's going to avoid every single PS slash and then somehow get close enough to PS in order to absorb it?
> 
> I don't need to address preta path absorbing PS because Nagato isn't absorbing PS before the PS swords destroy him. Concession Accepted as you still haven't proved that Nagato has enough to speed to dodge it completely.
> 
> ...



Your only defence is literally a slash that can be avoided. You've not at all said why Nagato _cannot_ absorb Perfect Susanoo.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your only defence is literally a slash that can be avoided. You've not at all said why Nagato _cannot_ absorb Perfect Susanoo.


All you're saying is "Nagato dodges and absorbs PS". I asked you to show me speed feats that prove he can dodge an attack with such a massive AOE and you didn't. There's also the fact that those slahes can be done over and over again. Why do I need to explain why he can't absorb it when it's obvious that he can?


Joakim3 said:


> Shurado had 1/6th of Nagato's chakra at that point, and was in air (so dodging was impossible)...... Second SM Naruto isn't really slow by any standard. We are talking about a man who outmaneuvered the FRS fodder dodging Raikagenaut and Tendo.
> 
> Nagato himself was capable of outrunning his own _Shinra Tensei_ and reaching Killer B before he hit through ground, he is comically fast.
> 
> All assuming he doesn't camp under Gedo Mazo.. which Sasuke he has ZERO way of putting down (feat wise at least)


Do you agree that EMS madara would beat Nagato?


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> All you're saying is "Nagato dodges and absorbs PS". I asked you to show me speed feats that prove he can dodge an attack with such a massive AOE and you didn't. There's also the fact that those slahes can be done over and over again. Why do I need to explain why he can't absorb it when it's obvious that he can?



You're the one who needs to show feats that a slash can stop Nagato from absorbing. Now if very impressive speed feats as a cripple can't convince you, I'm not sure what will.

The slashes can be done over and over again; Shunshin is a jutsu that can be done over and over again.

The slash approach is a poor one at best. It ignores key factors in the fight, for instance, if Nagato aims a very powerful directional Shinra Tensei at PS (which could get it down long enough for Nagato to absorb). 
Or the fact it totally ignores the summonings Nagato can do, let alone all the Demon Realm rockets and lasers that can enter the fight.

The slash approach simply ignores to much. What's worse, it is backed up with the false notion that Naruto = Sasuke (by portrayal) means that Sasuke must be able to take Nagato. Despite the fact Naruto has _far_ more suitable abilities to fight a Rinnegan user.


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## sanninme rikudo (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> All you're saying is "Nagato dodges and absorbs PS". I asked you to show me speed feats that prove he can dodge an attack with such a massive AOE and you didn't. There's also the fact that those slahes can be done over and over again. Why do I need to explain why he can't absorb it when it's obvious that he can?
> 
> Do you agree that EMS madara would beat Nagato?


okay even if nagato cant avoid the slash or absorb susanoo which he can do both but say he didnt why cant he just BT him out of the susanooo


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## Psp123789 (Nov 13, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're the one who needs to show feats that a slash can stop Nagato from absorbing. Now if very impressive speed feats as a cripple can't convince you, I'm not sure what will.


It's a shockwave capable of doing this with one swing. Nagato can't absorb that since it isn't ninjutsu obviously. I shouldn't need to explain that. The AOE of the attack is gigantic and that is just one swing. What impressive speed feats? He hasn't done anything that proves he can avoid an attack with such a huge AOE.



> The slashes can be done over and over again; Shunshin is a jutsu that can be done over and over again.


Unless Nagato's shunsin is as fast as BM Naruto's he isn't avoiding that slash. Even EI couldn't avoid those slashes.



> The slash approach is a poor one at best. It ignores key factors in the fight, for instance, if Nagato aims a very powerful directional Shinra Tensei at PS (which could get it down long enough for Nagato to absorb).


No it's not because that's all Sasuke's needs to do. Just keep swinging and Nagato can't do anything about it. What is ST going to do? Push PS back a little? PS just shrugs it off and destroys Nagato.


> Or the fact it totally ignores the summonings Nagato can do, let alone all the Demon Realm rockets and lasers that can enter the fight.


None of those summons besides gedo can do anything to PS. So he doesn't even have to worry about them. Gedo gets destroyed by enton or PS slashes. Those weak rockets are not going to do anything to PS which protected Madara from a TBB. Even a casual TBB far surpasses those rockets in power.



> The slash approach simply ignores to much. What's worse, it is backed up with the false notion that Naruto = Sasuke (by portrayal) means that Sasuke must be able to take Nagato. Despite the fact Naruto has _far_ more suitable abilities to fight a Rinnegan user.


I said Sasuke can take Nagato because he has PS. The fact that he was portrayed as equals with Naruto and took down juubito with Naruto is just to prove that he's portrayed above Nagato.


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## IchLiebe (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> It's a shockwave capable of doing this with one swing. Nagato can't absorb that since it isn't ninjutsu obviously. I shouldn't need to explain that. The AOE of the attack is gigantic and that is just one swing. What impressive speed feats? He hasn't done anything that proves he can avoid an attack with such a huge AOE.


 I only see MADARA in that scan, where is Sasuke?





> Unless Nagato's shunsin is as fast as BM Naruto's he isn't avoiding that slash. Even EI couldn't avoid those slashes.


Again where is the feat of Sasuke doing this type of power slash?





> No it's not because that's all Sasuke's needs to do. Just keep swinging and Nagato can't do anything about it. What is ST going to do? Push PS back a little? PS just shrugs it off and destroys Nagato


Where is Sasuke shown fighting with PS, and where is its feats?





> .
> 
> None of those summons besides gedo can do anything to PS. So he doesn't even have to worry about them. Gedo gets destroyed by enton or PS slashes. Those weak rockets are not going to do anything to PS which protected Madara from a TBB. Even a casual TBB far surpasses those rockets in power.


Again where is the scan?





> I said Sasuke can take Nagato because he has PS. The fact that he was portrayed as equals with Naruto and took down juubito with Naruto is just to prove that he's portrayed above Nagato.


First of all where is this scan? Where was Sasuke portrayed as an equal to Naruto, because Hashirama shit stomped Madara? Actually the manga clearly portrays that Senjus>Uchihas and that Hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara, and going by what both have shown up to now, Naruto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sasuke.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Nov 13, 2013)

Psp123789 said:


> It's a shockwave capable of doing this with one swing. Nagato can't absorb that since it isn't ninjutsu obviously. I shouldn't need to explain that. The AOE of the attack is gigantic and that is just one swing. What impressive speed feats? He hasn't done anything that proves he can avoid an attack with such a huge AOE.
> 
> 
> Unless Nagato's shunsin is as fast as BM Naruto's he isn't avoiding that slash. Even EI couldn't avoid those slashes.
> ...



Overestimating a slash and underestimating the Shunshin from a guy whose mastered mainstream Ninjutsu don't help your case.

Again, we're not going to get very far in the debate for two main points: the slash overestimation coupled with the poor use of portrayal.

We've spent enough time talking about the slash (our stances won't change). 

Lets talk about portrayal: you're wrong to assume the fact Naruto and Sasuke can fight as equals means that Sasuke can take Nagato.

The portrayal is that Naruto has the abilities to fight with Sasuke and Sasuke has the abilities to fight with Naruto. _That's it_.
Anything beyond that is baseless speculation, for example automatically assuming Sasuke can fight Nagato despite the former lacking the abilities to challenge the latter.

Though I'm getting the impression that your slash argument isn't used by for its own merit. Rather you're using it to support the fact that PS was what was used in that portrayal you mentioned. So ignoring the slash, argument lets continue this debate at the source the portrayal.

Am I to assume that Sasuke can take the two, three, five, six and seven tailed beasts because Naruto did? For the simple fact that Naruto was able to?
That is essentially the logic you're using to justify the Sasuke>Nagato notion.


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## Psp123789 (Nov 13, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> I only see MADARA in that scan, where is Sasuke?Again where is the feat of Sasuke doing this type of power slash?Where is Sasuke shown fighting with PS, and where is its feats?Again where is the scan?


The person I'm arguing with claims that even if Sasuke has a PS like Madara's he would still lose to Nagato. 


> First of all where is this scan? Where was Sasuke portrayed as an equal to Naruto, because Hashirama shit stomped Madara? Actually the manga clearly portrays that Senjus>Uchihas and that Hashirama>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Madara, and going by what both have shown up to now, Naruto>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Sasuke.


They've been portrayed as near equals multiple times during the war arc. It's obvious that Naruto stomps Sasuke from what he has shown.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Overestimating a slash and underestimating the Shunshin from a guy whose mastered mainstream Ninjutsu don't help your case.


How am I underestimating his shunsin? How am I overestimating a slash that obliterated mountains? He's fighting something that made the gokage look like genin. He hasn't shown feats that prove he can survive a PS slash.



> Again, we're not going to get very far in the debate for two main points: the slash overestimation coupled with the poor use of portrayal.


It's one of the most powerful techs in the manga, Idk how I'm overestimating it. PS is why I said Sasuke can take Nagato. The portrayal is just something bonus(being portrayed as equals to someone who can easily stomp Nagato).



> Lets talk about portrayal: you're wrong to assume the fact Naruto and Sasuke can fight as equals means that Sasuke can take Nagato.
> 
> The portrayal is that Naruto has the abilities to fight with Sasuke and Sasuke has the abilities to fight with Naruto. _That's it_.
> Anything beyond that is baseless speculation, for example automatically assuming Sasuke can fight Nagato despite the former lacking the abilities to challenge the latter.
> ...


Again you still don't get what I'm saying. You are thinking that portrayal is the only reason I think Sasuke could beat Nagato. Why would I base that statement on portrayal only? I said he might win because he is indicated to have PS and assuming that it's the same as Madara's, he should be able to win. I also said he seems to be portrayed above Nagato.  You then said that even if he had Madara's PS he would still lose and that portyrayal isn't enough to prove Sasuke can beat Nagato. I never tried to use portrayal as a legit reason. Basically that portrayal statement was just to further my point a little,  it wasn't my main argument and no I don't think Sasuke can take rinnegan obito w paths.


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## ARGUS (Dec 3, 2013)

Sasukes PS is featless 
Dnt assume it's like madaras 
Plus it's not stabilized yet 

Regardless, without gedo mazo nagato takes it mid/high diff 
Since preta and deva negate all of sasukes arsenal useless 

With gedo mazo nagato wins low/mid diff


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