# Where does Jiraiya rank among these groups?



## Kyu (Apr 24, 2015)

Played Jiraiya's story in Storm 2 yesterday(shit is done fairly well) and that led me trying to figure out what the consensus is on his strength around here. 

Note: SM Jiraiya at full power

_*Akatsuki*_

-Pein
-Itachi
-Obito (MS)
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Konan
-Hidan


_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


_*Previous Five Kage*_

-Ei
-Onoki
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei



_*Tailed Beasts*_

-Kurama
-Gyuki
-Beasts 2-7
-Shukaku 



Needless to say, your list may differentiate from mine.


Might do an Akatsuki member next.


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## Deer Lord (Apr 24, 2015)

Akatsuki

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-Itachi
-*Jiraiya*
-Kisame
-Sasori
-Kakuzu
-Deidara
-Konan
-Hidan


The Hokage

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Tobirama
-Minato
-*Jiraiya*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen
-Kakashi


Previous Five Kage

-Onoki
-Ei
*-Jiraiya*
-Tsunade
-Gaara
-Mei



Tailed Beasts

-Kurama
-Gyuki
-*Jiraiya*
-Beasts 2-7
-Shukaku


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 24, 2015)

Akatsuki

-Pein
-Obito (MS)
-*Jiraiya*
-(Healthy) Itachi
-Kisame
-Kakuzu
-Deidara
-Sasori
-Konan
-Hidan


The Hokage

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-*Jiraiya*
-Tsunade
-Hiruzen (Edo Feats)
-Kakashi (No Sharingan)


Previous Five Kage

-Onoki
-*Jiraiya*
-Gaara
-Tsunade
-Ei
-Mei



Tailed Beasts

-Kurama
-Gyuki
-*Jiraiya* (3rd Raikage was close to Gyuki's power)
-Beasts 2-7
-Shukaku

Overall, only among the Hokage (some of the strongest ninja in history) does he rank at/below the average (middle of the pack). Generally speaking, Jiraiya is at the literal peak of Mid-kage class, and is the example of what you must be stronger than to be considered High-kage (Onoki, EMS Sasuke, Obito, Killer Bee, Tobirama, SM Kabuto, Minato, Nagato).


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Apr 24, 2015)

Akatsuki
Below the dojutsu three but above kisame in overall power

Hokage
Above tsunade, hiruzen and kakashi but below tobirama, minato, hashirama and naruto

Previous gokage
He weaker than onoki overall and stronger than A overall but i would probably rank him below him(since he wouldn't win in a fight)

Tailed beast
He wouldn't beat any thinking tailed beast like they were in the war so he would technically be weaker than all of them. Nuking and great durability/size is too much for any ninja who don't got specific hax cheats or god type power. He could fight/do something to them tho.


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## Trojan (Apr 24, 2015)

> Akatsuki
> 
> -Pein
> -Itachi
> ...



Third Place after Pain and Obito. 
Stronger than everyone else. 



> The Hokage
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...



4th place after the Namikazes, and Hashirama. 
Stronger than the rest. 



> Previous Five Kage
> 
> -Ei
> -Onoki
> ...



Stronger than all of them. 


> Tailed Beasts
> 
> -Kurama
> -Gyuki
> ...



It's hard imo when it comes to the Bijuu to judge those whom we haven't seen them fighting a Bijuu directly because of the TBB. 

However, since the manga placed Jiraiya to be stronger than itachi, Kisame, and we were told that he could have won against Pain, I think it's fair to believe that he can defeat up until 7 tails perhaps, since the other Akatasuki were hunting them down and defeating them. 

At the same time we don't know in a lot of cases if they were fighting the Bijuu themselves, or only the hosts, or up to what tail exactly...etc.


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## Trojan (Apr 24, 2015)

> Needless to say, your list may differentiate from mine.



So, you want to change the order of the others as well? 
If so,

A: Akatsuki

1- Pain
2- Obito (he can win if he goes to Nagato right away tho) 
3- *Jiraiya*
4- Itachi
5- Kisame (Overall, but he loses to Deidara) 
6- Kakuzu
7- Konan (apparently?) 
8- Sasori
9- Deidara
10- Hidan

B: The Hokage

1- Narudo
2- Minato (BM, without it, he's after Hashirama)
3- Hashirama
*4- Jiraiya*
5- Hiruzen (4th Databook still mention that he is better than/superior to Tobirama)
6- Tobirama
7- Tsunade
8- Kakashi

C:
*1- Jiraiya*
2- Onoki (Overall, but I see A wining against him)
3- A
4- Tsunade
5- Gaara
6- Mei

D: Tailed Beasts

as in my previous post, It's hard when it comes to them. We know Base Jiraiya dealt with 4tails Narudo even though he did not want to harm him, so that's one thing.


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## Turrin (Apr 24, 2015)

1. Obito [Juubi]
2. Nagato
3. Edo- Itachi
4. *Jiraiya*, Itachi [Healthier], Sasori, Kisame [With Enough Stolen Chakra]
5. Itachi [Hebi-Sasuke-Fight]
6. Kakuzu
7. Kisame [With little to no Stolen Chakra]
8. Hidan

Konan and Zetsu can't be ranked.

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Edo-Minato
4. Prime-Hiruzen
5. Minato
6. Tobirama [No Edo]
7. *Jiriaya*
8. Old-Hiruzen, Tsunade [Normal Amount of Byakugo-Chakra]

Tsunade w/ 2.5-3 Years of Byakugo Chakra is hard to rank, as is Tobirama w/ Edo-Tensei

1. *Jiraiya*, Onoki
2. Tsunade [Normal Amount of Byakugo-Chakra]
3. Gaara
4. Ei
5. Mei

Same as above regarding Tsunade w/ 2.5-3 Years Byakugo Chakra

1. Juubi
2. Kurama
3. Hachibi [Pre-B], *Jiraiya*
4. Beasts 2-7
5. Shukaku

Characters placed on the same number, are characters i'm not sure whose stronger.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 25, 2015)

*Akatsuki*

1. Pain/Itachi
2. Obito (MS)
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
-Jiraiya-
5. Kisame
6. Kakuzu
7. Konan
8. Hidan
9. Zetsu

*Hokage*

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Minato/Tobirama
-Jiraiya-
4. Tsunade
5. Kakashi
6. Hiruzen (old)

*5 Kage*

1. A
-Jiraiya-
2. Oonoki
3. Tsunade
4. Gaara
5. Mei

*4 Edo Kage*

1. A (3)
-Jiraiya-
2. Muu/Gengetsu
3. Rasa

*Bijuu*

0. Juubi
1. Kyuubi
2. Hachibi
-Jiraiya-
3. Nanabi
4. Rokubi
5. Gobi
6. Yonbi
7. Sanbi
8. Nibi
9. Ichibi


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## Empathy (Apr 25, 2015)

*Akatsuki*
Rinnegan Obito
Pain
Itachi
*Jiraiya*
Part I Orochimaru
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan

I put Rinnegan Obito because I don't know if pre-Rinnegan is stronger than Itachi. Part II Orochimaru before Sasuke revived him would probably go underneath Deidara. Orochimaru before his fight with Hiruzen might actually be stronger than Jiraiya, but we never really got to see what he was capable of. Zetsu and Taka omitted.



*Hokage*
Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
*Jiraiya*
Tsunade
Kakashi
Old Hiruzen




*Kage*
*Jiraiya*
Onoki
A
Gaara
Tsunade
Mei

Tsunade might be stronger than Gaara; they're pretty close.



*Edo Kage*
*Jiraiya*
Muu
Gengetsu
A
Rasa

I included Edo Kages because Niku did and I wanted to put Jiraiya at the top of another list. Muu and Gengetsu are probably equal, but Muu was portrayed the best. 

The Kyuubi is the strongest bijuu not counting the Juubi. The Hachibi is second strongest. The rest are about the same, except with the Ichibi maybe at the weakest. Jiraiya might be able to beat the Hachibi. I put Jiraiya above the Sandaime Raikage, who tied with it in the past. I think Jiraiya could give Bee a close fight, so he might fare better against the Hachibi not using his powers well. _Bijuudama_ from any bijuu will still kill him, though.


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## Cord (Apr 25, 2015)

_*Akatsuki*_

- Obito
- Nagato
- Itachi
- _*Jiraiya*_
- Orochimaru (part 1)
- Sasori
- Deidara
- Kisame
- Kakuzu
- Konan
- Hidan​
I was honestly tempted to put Jiraiya and Orochimaru in the same ranking because I've always had the impression that Orochimaru was intended to be the strongest Sannin despite his misfortunes at the hands of the Uchihas. In any case, Jiraiya's power display against Pain was impressive enough for me to put him slightly above Orochimaru. That said, I still hold the opinion that the latter's disappointing feats in part 2 isn't necessarily reflective of his ability or strength nor a testament of his incompetence. It just so happened that he's doomed to be thwarted from the very start due to his role in the story/plans (involving the Uchihas) if the narrative context were to be taken into account.

_*The Hokage*_

- Naruto
- Hashirama
- Minato
- Tobirama
- _*Jiraiya*_
- Tsunade
- Hiruzen
- Kakashi (no Sharingan)​
Jiraiya is unarguably below Naruto, Hashirama, Minato, and Tobirama. Although he's frequently the favorite in a hypothetical battle against Tsunade and Hiruzen. Sharinganless Kakashi is definitely below him.

_*Previous Five Kage*_

- Onoki, *Jiraiya*
- Ei
- Tsunade
- Gaara
- Mei​
This, I'm quite unsure of. I view Jiraiya and Onoki as equals and thinking of a hypothetical battle scenario between them tends to leave me indecisive as to who would win. It's perhaps entirely dependent on what conditions their battle would have. I would say he's slightly stronger than Ei though and as previously mentioned, he'd defeat Tsunade more often than not.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Apr 25, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Played Jiraiya's story in Storm 2 yesterday(shit is done fairly well) and that led me trying to figure out what the consensus is on his strength around here.
> 
> Note: SM Jiraiya at full power
> 
> ...


1. Pain
2. Obito (MS)
3. *SM Jiraiya*
4. Itachi
5. Sasori
6. Deidara
7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Hidan

SM Jiraiya was strong enough to pressure Pain, and would have won with prior knowledge. He lived up to Itachi's hype and then some, and given Dojutsu is susceptible to Gamarinsho's effects, he could potentially screw Obito over. He truly was this strong.

Ranking Jiraiya below Itachi, when Itachi had trouble with one Sage Mode user (getting bisected twice) kind of doesn't make sense given Jiraiya, despite having an imperfect version, was arguably a better Sage than Kabuto in terms of battle and jutsus.



> _*The Hokage*_
> 
> -Naruto
> -Hashirama
> ...


1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. *SM Jiraiya*
6. Tobirama
7. Tsunade
8. Hiruzen
9. Kakashi

I put Jiraiya over Tobirama since Tobirama, while Jiraiya is in Sage Mode...simply can't be hurt by any of the jutsu Tobirama displayed. And he has the elemental advantage with Doton over Suiton.



> _*Previous Five Kage*_
> 
> -Ei
> -Onoki
> ...


1. *SM Jiraiya*
2. Onoki
3. Tsunade
4. Gaara
5. A
6. Mei Terumi

If Jiraiya was one of the Gokage, he'd be its strongest member. Sage Mode, even incomplete, is just that broken of an ability.
_*Tailed Beasts*_



> -Kurama
> -Gyuki
> -Beasts 2-7
> -Shukaku


1. Kurama
2. Gyuki
3. Matatabi, Isobu, Son Goku, Kokuo, Saiken, and Chomei
5. *SM Jiraiya*
6. Shukaku

SM Jiriaya, despite how strong he is...doesn't match up well when facing Biju. He could potentially beat one or two, but in the end would lose to most. Especially Kurama or Gyuki.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

1. Pain
2. Itachi
3. Obito 
4. *Sage Jiraiya*
5. Kisame
6. Deidara
7. Sasori
_8. Base Jiraiya_
9. Kakuzu
10. Konan
11. Hidan
12. Zetsu

1. Naruto
2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. *Sage Jiraiya*
6. Hiruzen
7. Tsunade
8._ Base Jiraiya_
9. Kakashi

1. *Sage Jiraiya*
2. Oonoki
3. Gaara
4. A
5. _Base Jiraiya_
6. Mei
7. Tsunade

1. Mu
2. Rasa
3. *Sage Jiraiya*
4. Gengetsu
5. A
6. _Base Jiraiya_

0. Juubi
1. Kyuubi
2. *Sage Jiraiya *
3. Hachibi
4. Nanabi
5. Rokubi
6. Gobi
7. Yonbi
8. _Base Jiraiya_
9. Sanbi
10. Nibi
11. Ichibi


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## Rocky (Apr 25, 2015)

"--" = Tier gap. I'm including them because battles invloving guys in the same tier are heavily based on match conditions.

_Akatsuki_


Pain
Itachi
Obito
--

*Jiraiya*
Sasori
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
--

Konan
Hidan

_Hokage_


Naruto
--

Hashirama
--

Minato
Tobirama
--

*Jiraiya*/Tsunade
--

Kakashi
Old Hiruzen

_Gokage_


Onoki/A
*Jiraiya*/Tsunade
Gaara
Mei

_Past Kage_


A
*Jiraiya*
Mu/Gengetsu
--

Rasa

This is Jiraiya starting in Base mind you. Once in Sage Mode he'd be nearing the top of almost every list, but accessing that power is a hassle, and most shinobi can ascend to their A-game with _much_ less effort.


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## ARGUS (Apr 25, 2015)

*Akatsuki*
-Pein
-Tobi
-Itachi
-*SM Jiraiya*
-Kisame
-Deidara
-Kakuzu
-Sasori
-Konan
-Hidan


_*The Hokage*_

-Naruto
-Hashirama
-Minato
-Tobirama
-*SM Jiraiya*
-Hiruzen
-Tsunade
-Kakashi


_*Previous Five Kage*_

-Ei
-*SM Jiraiya*
-Onoki
-Gaara
-Tsunade
-Mei



_*Tailed Beasts*_

-Kurama
-Gyuki
-Beasts 2-7
-*SM Jiraiya*
-Shukaku 




> Needless to say, your list may differentiate from mine.


Yeah i have  made my edits on ur placementts


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> 1. Mu
> *2. Rasa*
> 3. *Sage Jiraiya*
> 4. Gengetsu
> ...





> 1. Pain
> 2. Itachi
> 3. Obito
> 4.* Sage Jiraiya*
> ...



Sunagakuru-Ninja, "Sandaime Kazekage, among the successive generations of Kazekage, towers above the rest in strength"

"That such a person...could be beaten so easily, the fact is no one could believe it"

Sasori, "It was because of this jutsu Sandamie Kazekage was extolled as the strongest [Kazekage*]"

Chiyo, Sungakuru's most feared weapon....Satetsu"

DBII, "Sasori sought excellency in his puppets, it's only natural the Kazekage hailed as the strongest would catch his eye. Upon manufacturing a puppet out of his painstakingly defeated opponent,"


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## Nikushimi (Apr 25, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> 1. Pain
> 2. Obito (MS)
> 3. *SM Jiraiya*
> 4. Itachi
> ...



He would have beaten Pain if he had full knowledge and Pain didn't; if Pain knew about Gamarinsho and he didn't care about his own village (or if they were simply fighting somewhere else...like a place that didn't have giant buildings to hide in), Jiraiya would have been paste before the Genjutsu could take effect.



> He lived up to Itachi's hype and then some, and given Dojutsu is susceptible to Gamarinsho's effects, he could potentially screw Obito over. He truly was this strong.



The problem is Gamarinsho's prep time and audible give-away. Obito can teleport anywhere on the planet at will and travel through walls, so hiding to buy time until the Genjutsu takes effect isn't an option (and again, hiding anywhere is contingent on fighting where there are places to hide).



> Ranking Jiraiya below Itachi, when Itachi had trouble with one Sage Mode user kind of doesn't make sense



It makes sense when you take into account a few things:

1. Sage Kabuto had built-in eye protection to negate visual Genjutsu (including Tsukuyomi); Jiraiya does not.
2. Kabuto knew more about Itachi's abilities going into that fight than vice-versa.
3. Itachi was fighting specifically to capture Kabuto alive and stop the Edo Tensei; Kabuto had no qualms about ripping Itachi's body to pieces before trying to mind tag him.
4. Kabuto had more than just Sage Mode augmenting his body; he had also taken Karin's healing, Jugo's natural energy absorption, Suigetsu's body melting, and the Jutsu of the Sound 5 and Orochimaru.



> (getting bisected twice)



Itachi was bisected once, and that was after he deactivated Susano'o of his own accord to use Izanami (which falls into the whole "he was trying to capture Kabuto alive" thing).



> given Jiraiya, despite having an imperfect version, was arguably a better Sage than Kabuto in terms of battle and jutsus.



There is nothing arguable about that; Kabuto and Jiraiya each have Jutsu in their Sage Modes that are more useful in certain situations, and Jiraiya has better showings of physical strength, but Kabuto has far better damage soak thanks to his healing abilities and a Genjutsu seemingly every bit as dangerous to the conventional enemy as Gamarinsho, with only a fraction of the prep time. If you wanna talk about their sensing capabilities, there is no comparison; Kabuto was weaving around attacks he wasn't even looking at while Jiraiya got his arm torn off by Pain as soon as he turned his back. At the bottom line, Kabuto perfected _his_ Sage Mode.



> I put Jiraiya over Tobirama since Tobirama, while Jiraiya is in Sage Mode...simply can't be hurt by any of the jutsu Tobirama displayed.



That Suiton jet Tobirama used to cut through one of the Shinju's roots ought to hurt Jiraiya. And if Sage Madara had to dodge his kunai and block his water needles with Susano'o, that does not suggest Jiraiya would simply tank them.

Oh, and the multiplying explosive tag Jutsu. Jiraiya is not tanking that.



> And he has the elemental advantage with Doton over Suiton.



Jiraiya has shown exactly one Doton Jutsu (Yomi Numa), and it wouldn't be useful at all against Tobirama (who can use Hiraishin). If you wanna speculate about the possibility of Jiraiya using other Doton Jutsu, remember that Kishi just released info on what elements each ninja was capable of using; I don't remember Tobirama's but based on what I do remember I'd be willing to bet he can use at least most of them, and that brings elemental advantage to a matter of circumstance based on the Jutsu they use.



> 1. *SM Jiraiya*
> 2. Onoki
> 3. Tsunade
> 4. Gaara
> ...



There is nothing inherently broken about Sage Mode; it makes the user stronger, faster, more durable, and boosts the power of Jutsu, and it allows for sensing chakra. Jinton is a million times more broken, since it will kill basically anyone it touches--Oonoki is just shit compared to Jiraiya apart from that.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 25, 2015)

This is mostly a quote of Rocky's list
This assumes Obito is pre-rinnegan(Konan fight~), Jiraiya starts base with SM unrestricted

Akatsuki


Pain
--
Obito/Itachi
--
*Jiraiya*
Kisame
Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu
--
Konan
Hidan

Hokage

Naruto w/ Hagoromo's chakra
--
Hashirama
--
Minato/Tobirama
--
*Jiraiya*/Tsunade
--
Kakashi(no sharingan)
Old Hiruzen

Gokage

Onoki/A
*Jiraiya*/Tsunade
--
Gaara
Mei

Past Kage


A
*Jiraiya*/Trollkage
Mu
--
Rasa

I think Jiraiya's placement is largely dependent on which parts of his hype you believe and don't believe. There are more than three, but the three parts that mostly pertain to his strength as a character in my view are:


Naruto wasn't attacked by Akatsuki again because Jiraiya has been watching over him
Jiraiya equaled Itachi and other Akatsuki back up such as Kisame wouldn't make any difference in swaying the outcome.
Jiraiya could of defeated pain with prior knowledge.
I believe the former to a certain extent but not the latter two at all. There's probably an exceedingly large correlation between where Jiraiya is placed on a tier list and what amount of his hype an individual believes in.


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## Nikushimi (Apr 25, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think Jiraiya's placement is largely dependent on which parts of his hype you believe and don't believe. There are more than three, but the three parts that mostly pertain to his strength as a character in my view are:
> 
> 
> Naruto wasn't attacked by Akatsuki again because Jiraiya has been watching over him
> ...



The first issue was actually brought up in the manga; Chiyo supported an alternate explanation.

The second, put into perspective, has obvious limitations (like Jiraiya not taking on Itachi+Pain or Itachi and the entire rest of Akatsuki minus Pain). Jiraiya is, optimistically, just barely strong enough to beat every Akatsuki member under Pain, Obito, and Itachi in a one-on-one fight; taking on two or more at a time is not feasible for J-man unless you deal from the bottom of the deck (Zetsu, Hidan, Konan; I hesitate to include Kakuzu, because he is actually competent and fairly strong).

As to the third...beating Pain while fighting in the dense environment of his village that he couldn't just blow away in one shot with a good conscience...is not the same as overcoming Pain directly on neutral ground. So the battlefield, as always, is a significant factor. And if Pain also had full knowledge, that changes things too; intel is very important to all participants in a conflict, when destroying the other(s) is within the means of each.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 25, 2015)

I had forgotten about Chiyo's alternative explanation. That no doubt weakens the hype, but I still think it's mere speculation as a possibility adds some weight to how strong we should think Jiraiya is. Just like for instance, Shikaku's speculation regarding Itachi still hyped his strength regardless of being wrong in actuality.

I don't believe the latter two for my own reasons, but I do believe Kisame's admission of inferiority to Jiraiya was genuine, and he was one of the strongest akatsuki members IMO. We probably differ on Jiraiya's general strength level.


I think Base Jiraiya's already strong enough to _at least_ compete if not beat most of the mid tier akatsuki between boss summons and his large scale ninjutsu without resorting to SM. In SM, I don't think he'd be much more than inconvenienced by Kakuzu/Sasori and could potentially beat both if he has knowledge of poison. 

I don't think he's as strong as Itachi, but I still think he's plenty strong enough to juggle combinations of 2 mid tier kage levels or 3 lower level kages.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 25, 2015)

Jiraiya himself thinks that the general level of Akatsuki members is around his own. So Chiyo's explanation sounds closer to the truth.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Godaime Tsunade (Apr 25, 2015)

_*Akatsuki*_

- Obito 
- Pein
- Itachi
- SM Jiraiya
- Kisame
- Deidara
- Kakuzu
- Konan
- Sasori
- Hidan


_*The Hokage*_

- Naruto
- Hashirama
- Minato
- SM Jiraiya
- Tobirama / Tsunade
- Kakashi
- Hiruzen


_*Previous Five Kage*_

- SM Jiraiya
- Tsunade
- Onoki
- Gaara
- Ei
- Mei

_*Tailed Beasts*_

- Kurama
- Gyuki
- SM Jiraiya (?)
- Beasts 2-7
- Shukaku​​


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## Duhul10 (Apr 25, 2015)

Akatsuki

1. Pein
2. Ms Obito
3. Sm Jiraiya

4. Alive Itachi ( sick ) / Sasori
5. Kisame
6. Deidara/ Konan/ Kakuzu


7. Zetsu

Edo kages

1. A / Sm Jiraiya
2. Muu/Gengetsu
3. Gaara's dad

Former kages

1. A/Sm Jiraiya
2. Ohnoki
3. Tsunade/ Danzo ( he was a former kage too )
4. Gaara

Hokages

1. Naruto

2. Hashirama
3. Minato
4. Tobirama
5. Jiraiya
6. Tsunade
7. Hiruzen

8. Sharingan-less Kakashi


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I think Jiraiya's placement is largely dependent on which parts of his hype you believe and don't believe. There are more than three, but the three parts that mostly pertain to his strength as a character in my view are:
> 
> 
> Naruto wasn't attacked by Akatsuki again because Jiraiya has been watching over him
> ...


So I re read the Raws for the Pain and Itachi statements

Kisame, "If it's you one way or another you could potentially do something against that opponent, but me well I don't think so..." "our levels differ"

Itachi, "So...if we were to compete with him we'd both be killed, if it goes well it might end in mutual death [a draw]" ".....supposing that even if the number of people increase I guess this won't change"

Itachi uses the word "だろう" when talking about the outcome not changing if the number of people increased. "だろう" is the speaker guessing, but not in anyway certain. So in this case Itachi is guessing more people isn't going to change anything, but he's definitely not certain this is the case. No different than saying i guess that guy's name is John, it might be correct or it might not be. 

Pain, "I guess I would not have won if it was not for this secret of mine "

Same thing as the Itachi statement. Again, "だろう" is used, and again this is Pain just guessing, but not at all certain. 

--------

Simply put both Itachi and Nagato are speaking towards hypothetical scenario's and just guessing that Jiraiya would still force a draw or win, in these hypothetical circumstances. But there is no real certainty there, it's more like Kishi is posing the question to readers, and than later answer it as no he would not have drawn or won, by revealing additional Akatsuki in Itachi's case and revealing CST/CT/GM in Nagato's case.

So really the only part of Itachi's statement we should take seriously is his belief that Jiraiya would ether kill him and Kisame or the fight would end in a draw. And in Pain's case the only thing we should take seriously is the fact that he's praising Jiriaya. The more men and beating Pain parts should not be.

This effectively settles in my mind the Pain vs Jiraiya w/ intel debate as it seems he would have never won even w/ intel. But increases my conviction in the fact that Jiriaya >= P1 Itachi.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 25, 2015)

I think pain didn't lie, but of course he was thinking about an amekagure fight, where he cannot use his god level techs ( CST and chibaku )
So he would probably win with knowledge and with a Deva path like the one who fought kakashi


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Duhul10 said:


> I think pain didn't lie, but of course he was thinking about an amekagure fight, where he cannot use his god level techs ( CST and chibaku )
> So he would probably win with knowledge and with a Deva path like the one who fought kakashi



It's really not a matter of lying, it's just that he's hazarding a guess on something he's not certain about as a sign of respect for his former master. 

It's like if you fought a famous boxer and hid the fact from the world that your left hook was much stronger than your right hook. Than in the match you throw your left hook and KO the boxer. Afterwards someone asks you how you beat the guy, and you say, "Well he was really strong, but I guess it's because he didn't know about my left hook". 

Yes maybe you only won due to said boxer not knowing about how strong left hook was, but you could have also won regardless, because this is only a respectful guess your throwing out there to explain your victory.

That doesn't mean Nagato wasn't praising Jiraiya strength, because he was, but his guess shouldn't be taken as proof of anything and is intentionally ambiguous on Kishi's part. Later we learn Pain has all these all powerful moves he never used on Jiraiya, and we can say to ourselves, the guess was wrong. That's all that is.


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2015)

a battle does not need to have every single move X character have. It can very well end before it goes to that point. Just saying...


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 25, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Jiraiya himself thinks that the general level of Akatsuki members is around his own. So Chiyo's explanation sounds closer to the truth.


I wasn't able to open up that link Alex. I tried to look at the same page in narutobase[1] but I'm not sure I caught the comparison.

Regardless though, I meant to suggest that the _mere postulation_ by the author that one plausible explanation for Akatsuki's laying low has been due to Jiraiya is hype in itself regardless if it's false. 

@Turrin
I had my own reasons for believing and not believing some of the hype concerning Jiraiya that go beyond just those singular statements. I was moreso making an observation on the tier lists that had come so far to that point. I will say though imo Jiraiya being => Itachi became less likely as time progressed and one acquired more feats while the other stayed dead. I could elaborate on my own take but it's a hell of a lot more nuanced than one individual statement, I'll make that post a bit later.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> @Turrin
> I had my own reasons for believing and not believing some of the hype concerning Jiraiya that go beyond just those singular statements. I was moreso making an observation on the tier lists that had come so far to that point. I will say though imo Jiraiya being => Itachi became less likely as time progressed and one acquired more feats while the other stayed dead. I could elaborate on my own take but it's a hell of a lot more nuanced than one individual statement, I'll make that post a bit later.


It really shouldn't take anymore than one statement, when it's as point-blank as Itachi's statement. But I digress, because what I find more interesting is these other feats Itachi acquired, that changed your opinion. Jiraiya and Itachi died in the same arc and had back to back battles showing new and impressive feats. The only time Itachi was active when Jiraiya was dead, was when brought back as a Tensei. But as a Tensei Itachi literally only showed 3 new feats; C-Rank Katon, Magatama, and Izanami. C-Rank Katon, is really not even worth discussing, as both Itachi and Jiraiya probably had a myriad of C-Rank Elemental Jutsu they never showed in the manga-cannon, considering how many elemental affinities DBIV lists them having and in Jiraiya's case it's more than Itachi [2 more if I remember correctly], plus it's not making any huge difference in battle against each other or anyone else. 

Magatama is really good because Itachi had before that lacked any kind of really compelling range game, but it's not some uber powerful technique that excels anything Itachi had shown before, in-fact it's not as good as Itachi other MS class attacks [Amaterasu, Tsukuyomi, Totasuka]. So it more adds to his versatility than anything else, which Jiraiya already had in spades prior to his death and is still superior to Itachi in, considering the sheer scope of the different style of techniques Jiraiya or his Toads have mastery over. 

That leaves Izanami, but Izanami is extremely situational to the point where really it's only likely to work on certain villains [certainly not Jiraiya] and is incredibly difficult to execute 1v1. It's still a good feat, because it useful in multi-man battles and against villains, but it's not going to be superior to what Itachi had already shown, not by a long-shot. 

Beyond that Jiraiya also gets feats post-death, from the DB granting him Frog Katas and SM-Sensing. He also gets feats from his Toads, most notably Fusaku and Shima, post-death. All of which to be perfectly honest are more useful in battle than Izanami will be in most situations.

So I don't really see what Itachi could have shown that changed your mind, unless your talking about general Edo-Perks allowing him to use MS more freely, doing away with illness, and enhanced durability. Which if that is the case, than I'd agree with you that, Itachi after that stuff is probably stronger than Jiraiya, but that's Edo-Itachi, not Living-Itachi.

-------

Besides that, the only other thing we saw was Senjutsu Techniques/Abilities and Sound Techs being extremely effective against MS and Itachi. Been told another Senjutsu user is equivalent to another MS user. And so on. All of which supports Jiriaya >= Itachi, rather than diminishing it.


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2015)

> The only time Itachi was active when Jiraiya was dead, was when brought back as a Tensei. But as a Tensei Itachi literally only showed 3 new feats; C-Rank Katon, Magatama, and Izanami. C-Rank Katon, is really not even worth discussing, as both Itachi and Jiraiya probably had a myriad of C-Rank Elemental Jutsu they never showed in the manga-cannon, considering how many elemental affinities DBIV lists them having and in Jiraiya's case it's more than Itachi [2 more if I remember correctly], plus it's not making any huge difference in battle against each other or anyone else.



Exactly. Finally someone said it.  
those feats he got is barely anything new or impressive. As for the elements, Jiraiya has 4, and itachi has 3.



> Besides that, the only other thing we saw was Senjutsu Techniques/Abilities and Sound Techs being extremely effective against MS and Itachi. Been told another Senjutsu user is equivalent to another MS user. And so on. All of which supports Jiriaya >= Itachi, rather than diminishing it.



Every SM user (and FTG for that matter) were shown/stated to be superior to their counterpart from the uchiha. I.E why Kishi made Jiraiya superior to itachi. 
What came latter on just supported that statement as we have seen SM Hashirama, Naruto, Kabuto, Minato, and Jiraiya, being superior to Madara, Sasuke, itachi, and obito.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Itachi got many more new feats, just not many new jutsu. I remember that people in the telegrams thought Bee was going to blitz Itachi when they faced off. But it turned out to be Bee who needed frequent help and warnings to keep up with Itachi.

Similarly, it was thought that a perfect Sage would basically KO Itachi the second a taijutsu exchange occurred. But we saw that Itachi could deflect blows from a perfect Sage (or KCM Naruto) without much sweat, as well as repeatedly clone feint them. 

Next, it was also commonly believed by some that Sages, with superior sage chakra, could shake off his genjutsu no problem. Kabuto's caution proved that to _not_ be the case, and stressed how important sage sensing was against Itachi's genjutsu.

If anything, Itachi's feats upon resurrection show that his base skills would keep pace with Sage Jiraiya, the weakest Sage, particularly because summons/biju are especially vulnerable to genjutsu control, and that Itachi would curbstomp base Jiraiya.​


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 25, 2015)

Itachi being able to outplay Bee and is well capable of tango'ing with a superior, Perfect Sage doesn't make him stand out from an inferior, Imperfect Sage?

 Edo/ Healthy Itachi >> SM Jiraiya should be obvious considering War Arc Power Inflation.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Plus: there's nothing indicating that base Jiraiya has _anywhere near_ Bee's reflexes. Hell, he couldn't block Gai's dynamic entry like Haku. Itachi's clone feint would wreck him. He's closer to Deidara, who couldn't keep up with Hebi Sasuke and needed to flee to the air.​


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2015)

> Similarly, it was thought that a perfect Sage would basically KO Itachi the second a taijutsu exchange occurred.



Kabuto's SM did not really have the same abilities like the frogs in the Taijutsu's power. Just like how Hashirama's SM does not give much durability (that's how Sasuke was able to cut through madara easily) 



> Next, it was also commonly believed by some that Sages, with superior sage chakra, could shake off his genjutsu no problem. Kabuto's caution proved that to not be the case, and stressed how important sage sensing was against Itachi's genjutsu.



Which is irrelevant because SM did solve that problem in either case. which provid that Genjutsu is not a problem against a sage.



> If anything, Itachi's feats upon resurrection show that his base skills would be able to keep pace with Sage Jiraiya, the weakest Sage, particularly because summons/biju are especially vulnerable to genjutsu control, and that Itachi would curbstomp base Jiraiya.



Not really. It showed exactly the opposite and that itachi will get fodderstompped.  
As we have seen his most powerful jutsu (Susanoo) is completely useless against the sound, and was pretty much defeated by a B-Rank jutsu which is no where near as powerful as the Frogs' sound jutsu. 

We have seen the overwhelmingly wanked Amatersu to be completely useless against the sensing abilities. 
And the same thing with Genjutsu. In addition, Kabuto's case in term of Genjutsu is different because he does not have partners attached to him directly, unlike with Jiraiya. 

We know Genjutsu is useless against several opponents. Ironically, that's how itachi survived even though he is weak agains sound based genjutsu. Yes, because sasuke was with him. So, even if he tried to genjutsu someone, that someone will get freed by the others. That's also way itachi was running every-time he is against more than 1 opponent.



> Plus: there's nothing indicating that base Jiraiya has anywhere near Bee's reflexes. Hell, he couldn't block Gai's dynamic entry like Haku. Itachi's clone feint would wreck him. He's closer to Deidara, who couldn't keep up with Hebi Sasuke and needed to flee to the air.



> implying they were fighting like with Haku's case. 

itachi got killed by Hebi Sasuke tho, and he admitted how powerful he became. 



> Itachi's clone feint would wreck him.


Sure.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Sunagakuru-Ninja, "Sandaime Kazekage, among the successive generations of Kazekage, towers above the rest in strength"
> 
> "That such a person...could be beaten so easily, the fact is no one could believe it"
> 
> ...



It might have been a retcon, or it might have been a match Sasori was ideally suited for, or Sasori might have had advantageous circumstances when he fought the 3rd Kazekage.

But Rasa literally summons a gold sand tsunami out of thin air, and then controls it like Gaara in the desert. He subdues biju that way. I believe that's a pretty devastatingly powerful opening ability.

And against Sasori starting in Hiruko, I think Rasa would clap his hands, cover him, and then crush him. Rasa is below Gaara in the desert, but above Gaara in any other circumstance.​


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Hussein, half your arguments revolve around sensing, which Sage Jiraiya didn't use against Pain, and wouldn't use against Itachi.​


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi got many more new feats, just not many new jutsu. I remember that people in the telegrams thought Bee was going to blitz Itachi when they faced off. But it turned out to be Bee who needed frequent help and warnings to keep up with Itachi.​



Most people thought Itachi would be outmatched by B-Seven-Sword-Style in CQC, which he was, as he was pushed back by it and than went for MS. 



> Similarly, it was thought that a perfect Sage would basically KO Itachi the second a taijutsu exchange occurred. But we saw that Itachi could deflect blows from a perfect Sage (or KCM Naruto) without much sweat, as well as repeatedly clone feint them.


The main belief was Itachi having trouble with Frog Katas due to Ghost Punches countering Sharingan's prediction. Something Itachi did not shown anything to go against. 

As for KCM-Naruto, it was more KCM-Naruto that consistently underperformed rather than Itachi over-performing. And I don't say that to discredit Itachi, I say it because it's the truth. KCM should have logically been a-lot more impressive, considering how much of the Kyuubi's chakra it contained and what Tailed-States had previously been capable of, as well as the speed KCM-Naruto displayed against Ei and the comparison to Minato that Kishi drew. Instead what we got was Naruto constantly being tripped up, literally and figuratively, by enemies that the Tailed-Forms would obliterate no diff. Like breaking his ankle against Kisame, BZ lol tripping him twice mere roots, failing against Sandaime and needing SM and Dodai to bail him out, somehow incapable of tacking down Chiyo and Kimimaro, being owned by 1-Tail or no tail Jinchuuriki. Never being allowed to use the Shunshin he displayed against Ei, and so on. 

KCM-Naruto should have raped Itachi, especially in CQC, from what had been previously established and shown, the fact that he didn't rape him is just another instance of the mode being vastly underwhelming compared to where it should have logically been, just like the above examples. 



> Next, it was also commonly believed by some that Sages, with superior sage chakra, could shake off his genjutsu no problem. Kabuto's caution proved that to not be the case, and stressed how important sage sensing was against Itachi's genjutsu.


Kabuto example also proved how Sage-Sensing was a hard-counter to all of Itachi's Genjutsu sans the highly circumstantial Izanami. So that just seems like trading the means, not the end result.



> If anything, Itachi's feats upon resurrection show that his base skills would keep pace with Sage Jiraiya, the weakest Sage, particularly because summons/biju are especially vulnerable to genjutsu control, and that Itachi would curbstomp base Jiraiya.


​


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2015)

Except he used the barrier sensing, and Pain is a different case, that you can't apply his case to itachi.
We know for a fact that Nagato keeps changing his chakra frequency (Not sure if it's the correct word, sorry. lol)
and that's why no one was able to know where he is even with Byakaugan, and Naruto did not know either until he stabbed himself with the black rod. 

Obviously itachi can't do that, so I don't see what the point of trying to apply this to him.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

I love that Chapelle emoticon.


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## Turrin (Apr 25, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> It might have been a retcon, or it might have been a match Sasori was ideally suited for, or Sasori might have had advantageous circumstances when he fought the 3rd Kazekage.​



Nothing indicates it was a Retcon. Sandaime-Kazekage considering the massive gulf in his abilities and the other Kazekage's was at least "Mid-Kage". Gaara another "Mid-Kage" beat Rasa w/o needing to go all out and seemingly Orochimaru did as well. That fits precisely with where he should place relatively to Sandaime-Kazekage. I could believe a retecon if Rasa beat Gaara, maybe even if Rasa pushed Gaara to extreme diff, but being mid-diff'd by Gaara does not at all upset the applecart to the point where it's at all logical to consider a retecon. 

As far as bad match up goes. Sandaime-Kazekage is a bad match up for Sasori, since Satetsu renders metalic weapons ineffective, which is Sasori's main mans of defeating someone; not to mention Sasori had many years [decades?] to improve and gained the power of the Kazekage since then. And this is also a denial of what the manga is trying to indicate as Kishi specifically brought up Sandaime-Kazekage's strength to hype Sasori's strength for defeating him and Sasori now having his power.



> But Rasa literally summons a gold sand tsunami out of thin air, and then controls it like Gaara in the desert.


And your point is what exactly? Rasa was capable of doing similar, but ultimately inferior things to what Gaara was capable off. And even Gaara's abilities are not some god-like abilities that put him above even most Mid-Kages.



> He subdues biju that way. I believe that's a pretty devastatingly powerful opening ability.


What the fuck was Sasori in Akatsuki for lol. And do you have any evidence that Sandaime-Kazekage could not subdue Shukaku?



> And against Sasori starting in Hiruko, I think Rasa would clap his hands, cover him, and then crush him.


So Sasori can defeat the strongest Kazekage and Jiton wielder in the manga, but a much stronger Sasori is being fodderized by a weaker Kazekage and Jiton wielder. 

Rasa, will be too busy evading Hiroku's traps to pull out Dust-Tsunami right away, from there he'll probably smash Hiroku, but Sasori will escape and pull out Sandaime-Kazekage. Than it's Sandaime-Kazekage's stronger Satetsu vs Rasa's weaker Gold-Dust, and Rasa looses. And yes i'm not going strictly by feats, because we don't have to as we are told which is better directly. However it's a kindness on my part to not go off feats in the first place considering Rasa has no real notable feats of defense, evasion, reactions, are very much lacking, being easily tagged time and time again by not even Gaara's gourd sand.​


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 25, 2015)

Obito

Pain 

*Jiraiya/Itachi*

Sasori/Kisame



Hokage

Naruto

Hashirama

Minato

Hiruzen

*Jiraiya/Tobirama*

Tsunade



Gokage

*Jiraiya
*
Tsunade

Onoki

Gaara

Ei 

Mei


Bijuu

Juubi

Kurama

*Hachibi/Jiraiya*


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Nothing indicates it was a Retcon. Sandaime-Kazekage considering the massive gulf in his abilities and the other Kazekage's was at least "Mid-Kage". Gaara another "Mid-Kage" beat Rasa w/o needing to go all out and seemingly Orochimaru did as well.



I'd consider them all Mid Kage, but with Rasa being the strongest. The 3rd Kazekage's supremacy being retconned, and Gaara beating Rasa because of his location. Gaara is High Kage-ish in a desert.

And didn't Orochimaru have Kimimaro helping him take down Rasa? And wasn't it an assassination? So perhaps it wasn't really a fair battle e.g. Kakashi's raikiri opener on Kakuzu.​


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## Nikushimi (Apr 25, 2015)

What's this about a retcon? We never saw the 3rd Kazekage in action, except as a puppet. We have no idea what kind of physical abilities he had or what other Jutsu he may have been able to use, or even necessarily the full potential of Satetsu.

The 3rd was explicitly stated to be the strongest Kazekage; there's no reason to call it into question because of a fight that happened roughly a year later in-series between an Edo Tensei of the 4th and an improved (excluding the loss of Shukaku) Gaara.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 25, 2015)

We've seen Satetsu (and the 3rd didn't have Sasori's poison) and we've seen Rasu's gold dust jutsu. Rasu's is undeniably better, and also requires much more powerful magnetic control because gold's atomic weight is more than double that of iron.

Besides, Hiruzen was also known as the strongest Hokage, which is completely laughable in hindsight. Public opinion means jack shit.​


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## Trojan (Apr 25, 2015)

the public opinion was talking about Hiruzen in his prime tho. What people do is taking the others power, and compare it to old Hiruzen. For example, they take Hashirama's full power in his prime, and compare to Hiruzen who was canonly weaker than Oro at the time. Obviously the conclusion would be ridiculous to compare because what people do is simply misrepresentation of the statement and taking it out of context. 

However, the Kazekages were not that ridiculously old as Hiruzen is.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> I'd consider them all Mid Kage, but with Rasa being the strongest. The 3rd Kazekage's supremacy being retconned, and Gaara beating Rasa because of his location. Gaara is High Kage-ish in a desert.​



The problem I have with this interpretation is the fact that Gaara never seemed High-Kage at any point in the war-arc. The scope of his Sand-Tsunami while impressive paled in comparison to the one he used in Sungakuru and Kishi didn't even make a big deal out of the topography advantaging Gaara in anyway. Than later when Gaara faced other Mid-Kages like Mu and Nindaime-Mizukage, it's very much debatable whether he would have won against them w/o outside help and situational advantages like having Rasa's gold dust still on the field. He was also eclipsed in the Madara battle by Tsunade and Onoki, fuck he was debatably less useful than Ei. If he was really high-kage he shouldn't have had the issues he did with these Kages and been so eclipsed in the Madara battle. Though perhaps our definitions of High and Mid-Kage simply differ and you'd consider Mu, Tsunade, Onoki, Ei and Nindaime-Kazekage High-Kages. But even in that case I don't see how Rasa being mid-diff'd by a guy who struggles with Mu and Nindaime-Mizukage, and is out performed by Onoki and Tsunade [debatably Ei] discounts Sandaime-Kazekage's hype, it's not like ether of those Shinobi are so strong that Sandaime-Kazekage can't possibly be close to them. 

Let's also remember that Rasa was mid-diff'd by Gaara, despite Gold-Dust specifically being indicated to be especially effective against Sand.



> And didn't Orochimaru have Kimimaro helping him take down Rasa?


That was the Anime as far as I know.



> And wasn't it an assassination? So perhaps it wasn't really a fair battle e.g. Kakashi's raikiri opener on Kakuzu.


I have serious issues with treating it as an assassination as Kabuto specifically puts it into the context of hyping Orochimaru's capabilities, when he talks about how Orochimaru took down Rasa and Hiruzen. I also see no reason to believe Orochimaru is incapable of defeating Rasa.



Strategoob said:


> We've seen Satetsu (and the 3rd didn't have Sasori's poison) and we've seen Rasu's gold dust jutsu. Rasu's is undeniably better.​


I fail to see what this is based on. Thee only thing Rasa has shown better than Sandaime is AOE, but if AOE is all it takes than Jiriaya with Gama Yu Endan [which wasn't even Senjutsu enhanced] is the strongest Shinobi until we get to BM-Naruto level considering the sheer scope of that Jutsu.

In every other conceivable way Satetsu is superior to Gold-Dust. Satetsu was faster than Gold-Dust, could be made into any kind of Shape Sandaime desired to create much more diverse weapons and defenses than Rasa ever showed. And despite your claim of Rasa having superior Magnetic force, he was never shown nor stated to have the attraction force of Sandaime's Magentic force, which rendered any metal useless as it was drawn into Satetsu and rendered anything that Setetsu touched immobile due to the mangetic force, in essence making his Satetsu nigh unblockable.  And one should bare in mind this is only based on the feats of Satetsu Sasori showed, while significantly underestimating and thus for the large part toying around with Chiyo and Sakura

And that is merely comparing their Satetsu and Gold-Dust, w/o at all accounting for their speed, reactions, other Jutsu, etc... Which matter significantly, because Rasa was not that impressive relatively speaking as far as speed and reactions go.



> and also requires much more powerful magnetic control because gold's atomic weight is more than double that of iron.


You are absolutely fooling yourself if you think Kishi is accounting for this. 



> Besides, Hiruzen was also known as the strongest Hokage, which is completely laughable in hindsight. Public opinion means jack shit.


Hiruzen the manga made blatantly obvious that he was retecon'd. Kishi gave his title over to Hashirama, put in the Edo-Tensei retecon to justify Hashirama and Tobirama's loss to Shiki Fuujin. Made Hashirama eons stronger than Old-Hiruzen, and offered no justification for how Prime-Hiruzen could possibly bridge the massive gap, despite having ample oppertunity to do so having Hiruzen being brought back as an Edo. Tied Hashirama's story-arc and relative strength importance into the plot in such a way that it eclipsed Hiruzen's. And provided the Fairy-Tale explanation for why people didn't believe his strength. And so on.

There are tons of very solid reasons to believe the Hiruzen statement was retecon'd and absolutely none of these apply to Sandaime-Kazekage and Rasa.

Kishi never gave any of Sandaime-Kazekage's titles to Rasa. He didn't say Rasa's Gold-Dust was the Greatest weapon in Sungakuru for instance or call him the strongest Kazekage. He didn't show any blatant signs of retecon's, like trying to justify Rasa's loss to Orochimaru or Gaara. Rasa was not eons stronger than where Sandaime-Kazekage towered over other Kages in strength, should be at, fuck he wasn't even as strong as where that would place Sandaime. Sandaime was not brought back as an Edo alongside Rasa and consistently vastly outperformed by Rasa, while not showing any signs of why he could be better. There is no story-arc reason for Rasa needing to be stronger than Sandaime and no explanation provided for why people might mistakenly underrate Rasa's strength. 

All Rasa did was appear and get mid-diffed by Gaara, despite having a jutsu that is situationally well suited against Gaara. 

And I must say that even with all the stuff that makes a retecon extremely like for the Hashirama/Hiruzen, thing I still have at least 1% doubts left, because that's how much weight multiple direct Statements should hold. So here where they is literally no good reason to discount the statement, other than seemingly your blind faith that Gold-Dust Tsunami > than anything Sandaime-Kazekage showed or could possibly have, it's a really weak premise to me, to assert that multiple statements should be disregard in favor of this.​


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## Trojan (Apr 26, 2015)

titles does not really mean any retecons, unless you believe Kishi also reteconed Hagoromo to Hashirama since the latter was given the title after the former as well.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> titles does not really mean any retecons, unless you believe Kishi also reteconed Hagoromo to Hashirama since the latter was given the title after the former as well.


Firstly it's not so much that Hashirama was also called the God of Shinobi, but the fact that no one ever brought up Hiruzen having that title ever. Everyone was like wow i'm in the presence of Hashirama the God of Shinobi, while not batting an eye at Hiruzen. 

However even still that alone would not be enough for me to discount the statements as a retecon, rather it's the sum total of all the points I mentioned that makes me believe a retecon occured. As you should know Hussain I was one of the few people that till the very end of the manga, still thought there was a chance that Prime-Hiruzen could take his title back, but it just never happened. Though like I said I still have at least 1% doubt, left in my mind, because these statements carry that weight for me.

So yeah I think i've been more than fair to Hiruzen through the years, and I think even now i'm being extremely fair by acknowledging that it's still possible that he's the strongest, even in the capacity of it being an EXTREMELY remote possibility. And I also think the situation between Prime-Hiruzen vs Hashirama, couldn't be more widely different than the situation with Sandaime-Kazekage and Rasa, if Kishimoto was directly trying to contrast the two.


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## Trojan (Apr 26, 2015)

- I don't think that matters either. It's what the X characters want or admire. For example, Oro cares/respect Tobirama more than the other Hokages. Naruto wouldn't give a damn about the Hokages as much as he does about Minato, his father, and so on and so forth. The same with Sasuke for example caring and admiring his brother. At least that how I see it.

- Yes I know that, and I honestly don't think Kishi cares about Hiruzen at all (or anyone who's not Senju/uchiha for that matter), but at the same time, I don't see it right to judge it that way because of the lack of feats. Hiruzen as you may know since you're the one who translated his profile (IIRC) is still hyped to be better than Tobirama since a young age, and having every single move in konoha. Even little things can do massive differences. For example, how Ino could have literally killed Obito when she mind-raped him the second time. 

Usually people do not count those little things which can make a different. 

- the last point as I said it's highly likely, but who knows without us actually even getting the chance to see it. For example, and this relate yo your first point, no one cared about Dai or thought of him as an impressive Shinobi, and yet he can use all 8-gates, and he is far more powerful than Hashirama, and yet he was unknown genin, and did not get any of the hype Hashirama got, or even near that hype.

If Hiruzen does indeed know how to use all the jutsu in konoha like for example the gates, in addition to his knowledge and power with Ninjutsu..etc then that idea could be possible.  

oh well, it's kinda pointless to talk about Hiruzen tho since we will never know now. Long story short, I don't think if Y character got a title like X that means the latter does not have it anymore. Otherwise, we will have to assume that Hashirama is stronger than Hagoromo, and Kishi gave Hago's title to him.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Apr 26, 2015)

Strange..

99% of people in this thread have ranked Minato higher than Tobirama and some even ranking Sage Jiraya above him. If that's the case the. Why was the Minato vs Tobirama thread such a stupidly long and ongoing thread.

Edit:
I see, the Tobirama fans have gone into hibernation.


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## Alex Payne (Apr 26, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> I wasn't able to open up that link Alex. I tried to look at the same page in narutobase[1] but I'm not sure I caught the comparison.


"The Sand have been warned and preparing, ANBU have been deployed to key points in the outskirts... even so I wonder if they'd be able to forcibly stop someone like me from entering the country..."

J-Man relayed the info about Akatsuki to Suna but he seems unsure that they are capable of stopping people on his level from invading. Looked like he used himself as an example of Akatsuki member. 

_*Akatsuki*_

Obito (MS) ~ Pain
Itachi

Taka Sasuke 
Jiraiya ~ Orochimaru
Sasori ~ Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan

Hidan
Karin
Jugo~Suigetsu

_*The Hokage*_

Naruto
Hashirama

Minato~Tobirama
Jiraiya
Tsunade
Kakashi~Hiruzen

_*Previous Five Kage*_

Jiraiya~Onoki
Ei ~Tsunade ~Gaara
Mei

_*Tailed Beasts*_

-Kurama
-Gyuki
-Beasts 2-7 ~ Jiraiya(Nibi and Sanbi were defeated without much difficulties by Akatsuki so I can see SM Jiraiya being capable of beating lower end and some mid bijus too)
-Shukaku


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Strange..
> 
> 99% of people in this thread have ranked Minato higher than Tobirama and some even ranking Sage Jiraya above him. If that's the case the. Why was the Minato vs Tobirama thread such a stupidly long and ongoing thread.
> 
> ...



Cause most people include Edo Minato's feats who has Kyuubi Chakra Mode and Bjuii Mode.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - I don't think that matters either. It's what the X characters want or admire. For example, Oro cares/respect Tobirama more than the other Hokages. Naruto wouldn't give a damn about the Hokages as much as he does about Minato, his father, and so on and so forth. The same with Sasuke for example caring and admiring his brother. At least that how I see it.


The problem is Hiruzen was around thousands of different Shinobi and not a single one evoked his title. 



> Yes I know that, and I honestly don't think Kishi cares about Hiruzen at all (or anyone who's not Senju/uchiha for that matter), but at the same time, I don't see it right to judge it that way because of the lack of feats.


It's not just a lack of feats, it all the factors I spoke towards.



> is still hyped to be better than Tobirama since a young age, and having every single move in konoha. Even little things can do massive differences. For example, how Ino could have literally killed Obito when she mind-raped him the second time.


Tobirama is a-lot more believable, because there isn't a massive gulf between Tobirama's and Old-Hiruzen's abilities, so one can see how Prime-Hiruzen could potentially be stronger than him. And there are no obvious retecons, and so on.



> the last point as I said it's highly likely, but who knows without us actually even getting the chance to see it. For example, and this relate yo your first point, no one cared about Dai or thought of him as an impressive Shinobi, and yet he can use all 8-gates, and he is far more powerful than Hashirama, and yet he was unknown genin, and did not get any of the hype Hashirama got, or even near that hype.


Yes this is one possible way it could have been down, but there wasn't a single hint at Hiruzen having Gates. He didn't comment on Gai's Gates display or even open some of the smaller Gates. Plus Hiruzen hype has to do with Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu.



> If Hiruzen does indeed know how to use all the jutsu in konoha like for example the gates, in addition to his knowledge and power with Ninjutsu..etc then that idea could be possible


I've said before, but I'll say it again, I think Kishi initially conceptualized the Orochimaru to be a much bigger antagonist or be thee main antagonist [besides Sasuke] in the series, and Oro/Jiriaya were going to basically have Hashirama and Madara's role. But due to power-scaling and Kishi not being able to figure out how to get Sasuke vs Naruto to be the last match Kishi ended up changing things, and due to that Orochimaru became much weaker on the relative power scale and so did Prime-Hiruzen.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 26, 2015)

@Turrin
I didn't believe the Itachi comment for several reasons but these are the main ones. The reasons can be broken down into

alternative character hype
Itachi himself making an inaccurate guess based on the information he had, or lying
 the passage of time and Itachi acquiring new feats/hype
There all kinda together though rather than being separate things except the very latter which I indicate. This is tldr and wasn't planning on writing this much. I didn't have time to format and proofread but yeah heads up for minor typos.


Regarding the first bit, I think on the whole during part 1 we’re led to believe strictly in the power ranks ala Kage > Jonin > Chuunin. Orochimaru is the main villain and firmly established as kage level. Orochimaru terrifies Kakashi, a Jonin level, and kills two Kage (kaze and hokage). He also goes it alone and attacks Konohagakure by himself. This gives us an idea of how strong Orochimaru and the group he’s associated with (the sannin) is.


The remaining sannin get hype just by being associated with Orochimaru. The term legendary three is repeatedly used.  Several direct comparisons between Orochimaru and Jiraiya also take place.
(1)
(1) 


Itachi’s also introduced during this time and he makes short work of Kakashi, giving us the impression he’s superior to Jonin level for sure, but no idea where he falls in that caste of “The Strong characters”, whether he’s above or below the sannin.  Orochimaru’s statements seem to suggest he’s stronger, but it’s contradicted by Itachi’s assessment of Jiraiya, another sannin. So this bit really ends inconclusively. (1)
(1)


Moving on, were left with two statements, but I think Itachi’s statement held less veracity than Orochimaru’s. Orochimaru had an altercation with Itachi in the past and used that for his basis of deciding Itachi is superior and defeating him would not be possible. The audience is also important, seeing as Orochimaru said this in privacy to himself essentially (Kabuto’s basically irrelevant and a yes man.)


Contrast that to Itachi’s statement. Its evidence seemed to be based in Itachi’s knowledge of the sannin title and the hype it confers. Unless Itachi knows Jiraiya’s abilities, which I don’t believe there was any evidence of, he’s haphazarding a guess of how he would do based off Jiraiya’s title of sannin. That guess is that he’d at best tie, and Kisame or other backup would not make much of a difference.


Itachi has already had an altercation with a sannin member however, and came away the victor. If his only basis of sannin level is his fight with Orochimaru, of which he was the victor, why would he believe he could at best tie? Shouldn’t he believe an outcome similar to what had happened with Orochimaru(victory) is also a possibility?


Kisame’s statements are also of interest. Kisame had no knowledge on Jiraiya’s abilities other than he was sannin level; he’d seen some of Itachi’s moves and made a guess Itachi could maybe fight someone that powerful. It’s important to note though that this assessment has little evidence other than the sannin title. 


Later on, upon witnessing some of Jiraiya’s abilities, Kisame forms a second, more accurate assessment. I say this second one is more accurate because he has more information than the first. Kisame questions Itachi’s decision to retreat. Having seen some of what Jiraiya can do, and already knowing what Itachi can do, he ventured to second guess and ask Itachi if a retreat was really necessary. Kisame had determined that either Itachi, or himself and Itachi, would be enough to defeat Jiraiya and capture Naruto/ complete the mission, essentially weakening if not completely contradicting what Itachi had said about Jiraiya. 


Then there’s part 2/ the future, and I think we’re looking at it two different ways. I didn’t think Jiraiya was greater than or equal to Itachi at the time of both their deaths, which seems to be the way you took my statement. I meant every chapter from that statement (through part II and till their deaths) was making that statement weaker. This isn’t as directly damning as the second point and more opinioned though.


Sasuke shows up and says something along the lines of for Orochimaru(Jiraiya’s near-equal) defeating Itachi would not just be unlikely, but impossible. That isn’t as vague as the “stronger” and “can’t beat him” language Orochimaru was using; that type of comparison seems enough to separate them entirely.


Later on near Itachi’s death, Itachi does kind of fulfill the hype by defeating Orochimaru pretty decisively. Itachi’s demeanor while defeating Orochimaru is also important I think. Itachi’s so nonchalant and dismissive about defeating Orochimaru that he doesn’t bother talk to him and is more busy with asking Sasuke what his next move is; as if Orochimaru’s emergence is little more than a blip for Itachi’s day.  This is even further compounded by Zetsu, who just witnessed how easily Itachi was able to dispatch Orochimaru.  Even having witnessing that, Zetsu determines Itachi should have been significantly stronger, as in significantly stronger than the Itachi that just beat Orochimaru easily.


Itachi got hyped even more in the war arc(Shikaku postulating he was potentially influencing the whole alliance army at one point) beyond just the three techniques you mentioned but yeah the above is the bulk of the reason I didn’t believe Itachi’s statement, the war arc just made it less and less likely. I used some citations but didn’t want to scour the whole manga so I’ll find those later where asked. I think most the statements used are known to be in the manga.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 26, 2015)

All solid points, but the viz interpretation definitely makes one think that Itachi's hyping Kurama, not Jiraiya, and it flows seamlessly with Sasuke's question on the same two-page spread.



And after all, the only thing even 12-year-old Naruto needs to become BM Naruto, is for Kurama to not want him to die against and go, "Okay. This guy's strong. Have _all_ my chakra."

And BM Naruto taking on Itachi, Kisame, and more Akatsuki backup makes a _fuck load_ more sense than base Jiraiya, who is Orochimaru's (mid-Akatsuki) peer, borderline inferior.
​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Apr 26, 2015)

12 year old Naruto is clearly greater than the Akatasuki.  Only Itachi can match his might.  Which means early P2 Sasuke shutting down his kyuubi mode puts that Sasuke above in a league above Kisame and the rest of Akatsuki.  Only Itachi stood a chance against the true beast of Konoha.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 26, 2015)

KN0-KN3 is only chakra leaking through the seals. Never Naruto opening the gates per Kurama's request and letting  (BM) loose. Him being 12 is a deflection of that common sense.

Itachi and Kisame's attitude and comments when facing Jiraiya indicate that their opinion either did a complete 180, or that they were never hyping Jiraiya to begin with.

And common sense also points to the fact that Jiraiya's never done anything to deserve that kind of hype, and is known to be mildly inferior to Orochimaru (failing to bring him back, not a genius, etc.)

With Orochimaru being someone that individual members of Akatsuki i.e. Deidara, Sasori, Itachi, etc. confidently believe that they can defeat by themselves, let alone 3+ v 1.

You'll also remember that Kisame wansn't particularly threatened by Hebi Sasuke with backup even after hearing that he killed a Sannin. He was ready to fight them all (and could, feat-wise.) 

On the other hand, Pain's strongest technique failed to work on a portion of Kurama's full power, let alone his full power working in tandem with a host's ninjutsu. So 3+ v 1 is believable. 

Plus you gotta' remember that all they initially knew was that Naruto was Minato's son (who was Jonin+ level at that age) with a potential ally of Kurama inside of him.​


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 26, 2015)

Law 777 your post is rather long winded but I'll get to the jist of it 


Itachi easily dispatched of Kakashi but Kakashi also quivered in fear at the mere presence of Orochimaru and Jiraiya out right states Kakashi isn't in his league. so that doesn't really give any one an advantage.

Your point about comparing Jiraiya vs Orochimaru to Itachi vs Orochimaru is faulty as well , because Orochimaru has fought an actual drawn out battle against Jiraiya to the point Orochimaru is trying to kill him in a one on one bout , Orochimaru in the past didn't fight Itachi with killer intent as he was simply trying to take his body , defeating Itachi in combat was never a goal of his it was just trying to take over his body,

When Orochimaru admits inferiority to Itachi it has to do with being able to take his body which was the impossible dream thats why he then switches his focus to Sasuke .

In their second fight Itachi doesn't casually defeat orochimaru it took Stage 4 Susanoo which was his strongest technique and using that jutsu is what cost him his life , it would be like saying Minato casually defeated Kurama even if his victory came at the cost of his own life , and yes Itachi was ill , but Orochimaru was unable to use any jutsu especially his strongest technique Edo Tensei .

Orochimaru is such a mysterious character to rank in a combat scenario because he's never really gone all out w killing intent and the machinations of his techniques require prep time which his power can easily fluctuate , the truth is if killing Itachi was his goal , Itachi would've been dead , he could've used Edo Tensei as he held most of the same DNA and research that Kabuto held.


Also going back to Itachi and Kisame conversation it was all about Jiraiya as they wanted to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto so they can capture him w/o engaging in a lengthy battle because Kisame was out of his league and Itachi wasn't in any condition to fight an all out battle as he had to keep himself alive for Sasuke. but common sense should tell you he wouldn't be talking about Naruto as he had no intentions of capturing him in the first place , he just wanted to keep Kisame off his lie and avoid fighting Jiraiya to stay alive.


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## Bonly (Apr 26, 2015)

I'd rank Jiraiya's placements as:

_*Akatsuki*_


Nagato
Obito
Pain
Itachi/*Jiraiya*

Kisame

Konan/Zetsu

Sasori/Deidara/Kakuzu

-Hidan


_*The Hokage*_


Naruto
Hashirama
Minato
Tobirama
*Jiraiya* 
Tsunade
Hiruzen
Kakashi


_*Previous Five Kage*_


Onoki/*Jiraiya*
Tsunade
Gaara
Mei
A



_*Tailed Beasts*_


Kurama
Gyuki
Shukaku
*Jiraiya*/Son Goku
The Rest 


I just took at shot in the dark when it came to the Bijuu list since it's hard to rank most of them.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 26, 2015)

Not bringing him back does not mean he lost the battle, especially because we do not know how the fight went, maybe Orochimaru has just dissapeared like he did in the sannins battle or just ran away
Not Genius... :| are you kidding me ? Itachi is considered a genius, gai is not , but still gai wrecks the shit out of him. 
Naruto.. Every fight he had, he was way inferior in intelligence than His opponents, but he has lost a single battle ( because he did not want to kill His enemy )
If we are talking about which one is the best in 1 vs 1 ( not necesarily against each other ), Jiraiya is superior.
If we are talking about which one is smarter and has the Most effective defense jutsus, Oro is superior
If Oro has prep time, then , he beats Most of the verse.


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## Lawrence777 (Apr 26, 2015)

@Strategos
That translations a hell of a lot different from narutobase's, I don't think I ever actually saw it. lol, I figured the translations wouldn't be so drastically different. Anyway, thats an interesting take but I'm just gonna stay with their subject being Jiraiya, half out of laziness because I don't want to account for all that.

Eliyua,
I'm not really banking on changing any preexisting opinions, I was just giving my own since I think Turrin wanted an elaboration. For some of your points though: 



> Itachi easily dispatched of Kakashi but Kakashi also quivered in fear at the mere presence of Orochimaru and Jiraiya out right states Kakashi isn't in his league. so that doesn't really give any one an advantage.


I basically said the same thing here 





> Orochimaru’s statements seem to suggest he’s stronger, but it’s contradicted by Itachi’s assessment of Jiraiya, another sannin. So this bit really ends inconclusively


So I think we agree here.




> Your point about comparing Jiraiya vs Orochimaru to Itachi vs Orochimaru is faulty as well , because Orochimaru has fought an actual drawn out battle against Jiraiya to the point Orochimaru is trying to kill him in a one on one bout , Orochimaru in the past didn't fight Itachi with killer intent as he was simply trying to take his body , defeating Itachi in combat was never a goal of his it was just trying to take over his body,
> 
> When Orochimaru admits inferiority to Itachi it has to do with being able to take his body which was the impossible dream thats why he then switches his focus to Sasuke .


Orochimaru still said Itachi was stronger Eliyua. Then Sasuke corroborates the same thing suggesting again Itachi is flat out stronger. Orochimaru said his strength, is below Itachi's strength.



> In their second fight Itachi doesn't casually defeat orochimaru it took Stage 4 Susanoo which was his strongest technique and using that jutsu is what cost him his life , it would be like saying Minato casually defeated Kurama even if his victory came at the cost of his own life , and yes Itachi was ill , but Orochimaru was unable to use any jutsu especially his strongest technique Edo Tensei .


I understand your perspective totally, it just differs from mine.
When I saw this [1] I viewed it as being very dismissive and easy. I thought the author is sending a message "this guy just defeated that guy and he isn't even recognizing him or giving him the time of day". If you genuinely believe that was a fairly equal portrayal and Kishi was trying to portray them as nearly equal then like I said, I'm not planning on convincing anyone.



> Orochimaru is such a mysterious character to rank in a combat scenario because he's never really gone all out w killing intent and the machinations of his techniques require prep time which his power can easily fluctuate , the truth is if killing Itachi was his goal , Itachi would've been dead , he could've used Edo Tensei as he held most of the same DNA and research that Kabuto held.


I think that's a perfectly fair take.



> Also going back to Itachi and Kisame conversation it was all about Jiraiya as they wanted to lure Jiraiya away from Naruto so they can capture him w/o engaging in a lengthy battle because Kisame was out of his league and Itachi wasn't in any condition to fight an all out battle as he had to keep himself alive for Sasuke. but common sense should tell you he wouldn't be talking about Naruto as he had no intentions of capturing him in the first place , he just wanted to keep Kisame off his lie and avoid fighting Jiraiya to stay alive.


I think this maybe directed at Strategos. I said my own opinion though in my own post. That's part of the beauty of reading though because there's a lot of different ways to interpret things. I gotta go but I'll reply in a bit.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> ...​



Common sense points to the fact that the Akatsuki duo would be more wary of the village soloing "god-like" skills of the Sannin that shake the heavens and are feared worldwide than 12 year old Naruto. Jinchūriki or not he was just a brat, that's the entire reson he even has a babysitter- he needs someone to protect him because he isn't strong enough to fend for himself- it's why the elders were concerned about Naruto fighting Pain _because_ he was the man that killed even Jiraiya. 

Kakashi also thought Jiraiya's presence was the reason Akatsuki stayed away from Naruto over the timeskip, so as far as residents of the Narutoverse are concerned a fight with Jiraiya resulting in the Akatsuki members in question being at least badly injured if not dead is entirely believable.


Everything that happened at the inn was status quo only if they were talking about Jiraiya instead of Naruto.

I mean they were _oh just *so* cautious_ about the big bad Genin that they strolled right up to his room and said he was coming with them, right? The guy who supposedly didn't even think he was in his league was just like "I'm just gonna go ahead and cut off a leg so he isn't scampering around". If you wanna talk about attitudes doing a complete 180 then there you go. They clearly had no anxiety about facing _Naruto_, because _that_ was going to be a breeze.

On the other hand Itachi and Kisame exercise more caution with _Jiraiya_. "Even the strongest heroes have their weaknesses" is why they Genjutsu'd the woman to distract him. If they weren't confident it would work but bothered wasting their time with it anyway then they _really_ must not have wanted to mess with him if they didn't absolutely have to.

When Naruto prepared to attack Kisame casually rendered it useless with a swing of his sword and went back to thinking about that leg, when Jiraiya attacked the duo took off with Kisame starting to panic until Itachi got them out with Amaterasu.

So in summation you had the two big dogs (Jiraiya and Itachi) and one significantly weaker dude that can't even change the final result (Kisame) fighting over a baby Naruto; the significantly weaker dude begins freaking out once one of the big dogs gets rolling while the other big dog comparatively remains calm and manages to get them out of dodge. Weaker dog then asks his partner big dog why a retreat was necessary for him, as someone who he thought could compete.

Their interaction with Jiraiya is entirely in alignment with their sentiments that Itachi might be able to take on their opponent but not Kisame. Their interaction with Naruto isn't consistent with it _at all_.

They were talking about Jiraiya.



> Plus you gotta' remember that all they initially knew was that Naruto was Minato's son (who was Jonin+ level at that age) with a potential ally of Kurama inside of him.​



Who said they knew that?

Minato said that Hiruzen kept that a secret because if anyone knew Naruto was Minato's son he'd be in constant danger.


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## Sadgoob (Apr 26, 2015)

Flamingrain, age shouldn't be the factor being focused on. Itachi was a Kage level at that age, and they called Naruto "The Fourth's Legacy" and (Itachi at least) knew he was his son. 

Genius genes and Kurama are plenty to warrant caution from Itachi, and definitely moreso than a Sannin, as he has been shown casually discarding a Sannin twice in the manga.

_Nobody_ in Akatsuki has stated that they feel inferior to Sannin. Deidara, Sasori, Itachi, Pain, etc. have stated the opposite, in fact. Orochimaru and Sasuke put Itachi clearly above Sannin level.

When Jiraiya was in Suna, he also equated his level to a typical Akatsuki member. Nobody in Akatsuki respects Sannin more than they respect themselves, but they _all_ respect the legend of Kurama.

Kurama's the one that took on the world superpower solo, killing hundreds, and forcing the legendary 4th Hokage to sacrifice his life. What has Jiraiya done? Failed to beat Hanzo, and Orochimaru?​


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## Eliyua23 (Apr 26, 2015)

Itachi was in the village when Naruto was a loser dropout

and even though Itachi was a genius it didn't stop people (Orochimaru) from challenging him did it .


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## Sadgoob (Apr 26, 2015)

Eliyua23 said:


> Itachi was in the village when Naruto was a loser dropout.



No he wasn't? He hadn't been to village since fleeing when he was 13, and when Naruto was 7. 

All he knew was that Naruto had Kurama, was Minato's son, and saw him at the Ramen shop.​


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## Hazuki (Apr 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> _Nobody_ in Akatsuki has stated that they feel inferior to Sannin. Deidara, Sasori, Itachi, Pain, etc. have stated the opposite, in fact. Orochimaru and Sasuke put Itachi clearly above Sannin level.



no one in akatsuki think that sannin is a level of equal power 
sannin is just a title for 3  ninja with each capacity 

it's like been hokage , you know that a hokage is strong enough to obtein that title but their strengh can be much weaker or mucher stronger than the other hokage

do you think tsunade became super strong since she became hokage ? it's just a title 

being hokage or sannin doesnt't mean been equal...

you can be afraid of one of sannin and don't care to the other sannin

jiraiya one of the sannin was confident to meet and fight the akatstuki leader ( who is suppose to be much stronger than the rest of akatsuki ( orochimaru and itachi include)

and he could have even won 

orochimaru an other sannin left akatsuki because he felt inferior to one of akatsuki..

it's not because deidara isn't afraid of orochimaru , that he would think the same against jiraiya just because he is an other sannin 

that's really no clever to think that 




> When Jiraiya was in Suna, he also equated his level to a typical Akatsuki member. Nobody in Akatsuki respects Sannin more than they respect themselves, but they _all_ respect the legend of Kurama.



jiraiya equated his level to akatsuki duo knowing that akatsuki work by pair 

so he equated his level to 2 akatsuki , and i don't even know if he put his sennin mod in the analyse



> What has Jiraiya done? Failed to beat Hanzo, and Orochimaru? [/indent]



jiraiya is maybe the most praised ninja of all the manga , so i wonder what are you talking about...

minato , sandaime, itachi , nagato , kisame , obito , juubito etc  all of them praised him because of his legendary statut , strong , brave and experimented


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## Kyu (Apr 26, 2015)

> Cause most people include Edo Minato's feats who has Kyuubi Chakra Mode and Bjuii Mode.



Yeah, but according to those people; nerfed Tobirama's reflexes exceed that of Kyuubi Minato.


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## Veracity (Apr 26, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Yeah, but according to those people; nerfed Tobirama's reflexes exceed that of Kyuubi Minato.



They are atleast on Par with KCM Minato's reflexes( they both were nerfed clearly) and even having superior reflexes to that minato doesn't mean he's as powerful as him.


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## Kyu (Apr 26, 2015)

Both of them were nerfed? 

Weren't the Senju bros the only two Hokage not brought back at full power due to Oro's shenanigans with them back in part I?


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## Trojan (Apr 26, 2015)

That fan-made fiction Kyu. No where was it stated in the manga that it was only the Senju bros, and Oro used another ET on the other two.


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## Trojan (Apr 26, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Strange..
> 
> 99% of people in this thread have ranked Minato higher than Tobirama and some even ranking Sage Jiraya above him. If that's the case the. Why was the Minato vs Tobirama thread such a stupidly long and ongoing thread.
> 
> ...



All of Minato's feats and hype are automatically given to Tobirama. Cuz "same jutsu" 


> =Turrin;53457705]The problem is Hiruzen was around thousands of different Shinobi and not a single one evoked his title.



If you are talking about the SA, then no one of them spoke anything about the others either. No one gave a damn about Hashirama or called him "god if shinobi" no one cared about Minato or called him "Yellow Flash" even Hiruzen himself no one called him even "the professor", and generally no one cares about Tobirama since he was just thrown in there with punch of retecons. lol  



> Tobirama is a-lot more believable, because there isn't a massive gulf between Tobirama's and Old-Hiruzen's abilities, so one can see how Prime-Hiruzen could potentially be stronger than him. And there are no obvious retecons, and so on.



Still, those "massive gulf" can exist depending on how weaker Hiruzen got over the years. We have no clue about how powerful he was, or even who called him the strongest, and why...etc. All possibilities are there honestly. 


> Yes this is one possible way it could have been down, but there wasn't a single hint at Hiruzen having Gates. He didn't comment on Gai's Gates display or even open some of the smaller Gates. Plus Hiruzen hype has to do with Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu.



Him knowing all the jutsu in konoha can be consider a hint. Also, he did not comment on Gai's Gates because obviously he was not there with them against madara (unless you mean something else?)

Hiruzen has 5 In Ninjutsu, Genjutsu, Taijutsu, and that he knows all the jutsu in konoha. The gates are considered as jutsu. 


> I've said before, but I'll say it again, I think Kishi initially conceptualized the Orochimaru to be a much bigger antagonist or be thee main antagonist [besides Sasuke] in the series, and Oro/Jiriaya were going to basically have Hashirama and Madara's role. But due to power-scaling and Kishi not being able to figure out how to get Sasuke vs Naruto to be the last match Kishi ended up changing things, and due to that Orochimaru became much weaker on the relative power scale and so did Prime-Hiruzen.[



Although that's possible, but Hashirama and Madara crap was in the manga from part 1 when Narudo and Sasuke fought at the VOTE. 

It's simply hard to appreciate someone if you haven't seen him battle, and then it all goes to people bias and agenda and they start playing the weak/weaker, and strong/stronger game. For example,

If they don't like X character, or it does not fit with what they draw about the characters in their head, they will use the weak/weaker. Such that,

We do know the 8 gates make the user at the Juubi's host level. However, because people haven't seen Dai on panel, they don't say the 7swordsmen are strong because they survived, but rather they are weak, but Dai was weaker. 

Or when Hiruzen destroy the wood several time with Enma, they don't say it's effective when you put him against Hashirama, but they go stright away to say the Tree is weak, and destroying its root does not mean anything.

On the other hand, if they like X character, then they take the strong/stronger to hype that character.
For example,

It's not Kakashi that is weak (so, he's strong), but Tsukuyomi is too powerful and it will take down anyone. 

It's not the Wooden hands that weak, but PS's is powerful.


Unfortunately for Hiruzen, people tend to use the first example to dehype him so to speak. We have seen that Hiruzen (with probably some help) was able to take Kurama out of the village, and from the look of it, he apparently had to deal with at least 1 TBB since he said "Not again" but because we haven't seen what happened, people won't give him the benefit of the doubt. That's in addition that he is not very likeable around here, so there you have it. 


But overall, I guess I agree with your overall conclusion.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Lawrence777 said:


> Moving on, were left with two statements, but I think Itachi?s statement held less veracity than Orochimaru?s.


So correct me if i'm wrong, but essentially the idea here is that Itachi lied about his strength in relation to Jiraiya to keep up his double-agent facade, while at the same time providing a compelling reason to not go ahead and capture Naruto. As far as that hypothesis goes, it's merit resist on the necessity, productivity, and indication of Itachi lying, and that's how I think one should fairly evaluate this hypothesis. 

As far as necessity goes, the manga provides other "excuses" for why Itachi would not follow through with capturing Naruto. For instance, when confronted with several Jonin, that Itachi and Kisame, could beat, Itachi does not lie and say these Jonin are >= to him, he simply says they are skilled enough where if the battle drug on, other Konoha Shinobi would show up and things would escalate in a problematic direction. Kisame accepted this "excuse" and agreed to move on without taking things any further. Additionally in Part II Itachi, also speaks towards the fact that it is not necessary for Akatsuki to go out of their way to capture Naruto even than, because Kurama couldn't be sealed until the other 8 Bijuu were sealed, which Kisame also acknowledges and accepts. So why than could Itachi not have simply said the same thing about Jiraiya he did about the Jonin, that fighting him would escalate the situation in an unfavorable manner and there was no reason to take that risk, when they had plenty of time to capture Naruto? Basically what i'm driving at here, is that it was not necessary for Itachi to call Jiriaya >= to him, to achieve his ends there. And w/o necessity he is just lying for the sake of lying, which is not smart as it only opens his words up to cross examination, and being not smart, is out-of-character for Itachi.

Secondly, when it comes to productivity, it's not a very productive lie because even if Jiraiya's strength provides a reason for Itachi and Kisame not attempting to capture Naurto, when he's around, it does not provide a reason for why they wouldn't simply wait and target Naruto when Jiriaya isn't around, which obviously Akatsuki had the resources to know, even if Itachi and Kisame personally were not capable of keeping tabs on Jiriaya, which I find suspect to begin with, due to the existence of Zetsu, whose the perfect spying agent.

Thirdly when it comes to indication of a lie, Kishi despite having ample oppertunity, never once directly indicated the this was a lie, in any of the talks and flashbacks about Itachi's status as a double agent. He never had Jiraiya, Itachi, or any character for that matter state anything that directly indicates Itachi would perform differently than he suggested he would. There are statements, which one could interpret as indirect indications, but i'll address them later in this post.

So w/o the lie being necessary, productive, or any indication of Itachi lying, the premise doesn't produce enough of a compelling argument to discount a direct statement; it just doesn't.



> Its evidence seemed to be based in Itachi?s knowledge of the sannin title and the hype it confers. Unless Itachi knows Jiraiya?s abilities, which I don?t believe there was any evidence of, h


I think a man such as Itachi whose incredibly knowledgeable about many things in the manga having knowledge of Jiriaya's capabilities, would hardly be surprising. You can say there is no specific instance where Itachi shows knowledge of Jiraiya, besides potentially the statement in question, but that's not the same thing as coming anywhere close to proving he does not know.

So rationally the only thing we can say is that we don't know how much Itachi knows about Jiriaya.



> Itachi has already had an altercation with a sannin member however, and came away the victor. If his only basis of sannin level is his fight with Orochimaru, of which he was the victor, why would he believe he could at best tie?


I think this presupposes that all Sannin [at all times] are equal, match up doesn't matter, and Itachi buys into both of these presuppositions. All of which are assumptions, that very easily could not be the case. Itachi could view Jiraiya as stronger than Orochimaru, for whatever reason, he could view his victory over Orochimaru as him being well suited to overcoming Orochimaru's abilities, or that Jiraiya's abilities would specifically be more difficult for him to deal with.

Without Itachi giving us a clear rational for why he believes at best he could draw with Jiraiya, there is no way to fairly call into question his words, due to his performance against Orochimaru.



> Kisame had no knowledge on Jiraiya?s abilities other than he was sannin level; he?d seen some of Itachi?s moves and made a guess Itachi could maybe fight someone that powerful. It?s important to note though that this assessment has little evidence other than the sannin title.


I never have seen why people think Kisame's statement contradicts Itachi's and I still don't. Itachi directly indicates in his statement, that he [and Kisame, though largely him], could fight a good match against Jiraiya, and potentially force a draw. If two parties are relatively equal and one of said party has to protect two other people who are relatively fodder in comparison from being killed or grabbed, obviously that individual is going to be at a disadvantage. So Kisame question why they opted to retreat so quickly was necessary in a situation that heavily advantaged them makes perfect sense with Itachi's original assessment. And Itachi answers him in a perfectly rational manner, they weren't as advantaged as Kisame supposed because he was tired from using MS multiple times, which effectively ends that conversation.

Beyond that the opposing assessment that Kisame suddenly now believe Itachi is stronger than Jiriaya, to put it bluntly doesn't make any sense. All Kisame witnessed in that interaction was Jiraiya;s casual Jutsu forcing [and indeed in the good translations Itachi admits he was forced to] Itachi to use MS to save their assess. An exchange that very clearly left Itachi on relatively on the losing end, would not and can not logically go against Itachi's previous assessment. If anything Kisame should be saying to himself that Itachi overestimated their capability against Jiraiya, after that exchanged, rather than the opposite, but at the very least he should see evidence to support Itachi's estimation, rather than evidence to discount it. And this doesn't just speak to the veracity of the statement on a character "level", but also on a narrative "level", what Kishi choose to show when Jiraiya and Itachi actually confronted each other, was Jiraiya forcing Itachi's second best Technique, with one of not even close to his best techniques. Kishi structuring the narrative that way, also does not make readers question Itachi's statement, but rather makes them buy into it more.



> Sasuke shows up and says something along the lines of for Orochimaru(Jiraiya?s near-equal) defeating Itachi would not just be unlikely, but impossible. .


The problem with this argument is it's holding Jiraiya to a different standard than we hold any other character in the NBD. Literally the NBD is almost always a discussion of match ups, aside from unbalanced thread. So it's very clear that anyone in the NBD, acknowledges that nearly every character matches up differently than any other character, however this argument forces us to embraced the idea that this does not apply to Jiraiya and Orochimaru. Despite having widely different fighting styles, abilities, knowledge, and mind-set, they will undoubtably match up the same. To me this is a completely unreasonable, unfair, hypocritical, and bias standard we'd be holding Jiraiya to. And don't take that the wrong way, because i'm not saying your are those things, I just think you may not have considered this or thought about it this way. So Jiraiya can conceivably defeat someone who Orochimaru can not, and visa versa, which quit frankly is enough to prevent this idea from holding enough merit by itself or even as part of a collective train of though to discount a point blank statement.

However, I also wish to point out that this relies on the assumption that Jiraiya and Orochimaru are exactly equivalent in strength, which quite honestly I don't see anything forcing that to be the case. People have always been wrapped up in the Sannin being equivalent, but I really struggle to see how the manga supports this; rather it seems to me the manga consistently has them specifically not being equivalent. At the start of the manga Tsunade was rusty and had blood-phobia, thus she clearly was not equal to the other two. After the Hiruzen battle Orochimaru had part of his soul ripped out and lost many of his Jutsu, so he clearly was not equivalent to Jiraiya anymore. In Part II Orochimaru still had lost many of his Jutsu, but also suffered from body failure, he clearly was not equivalent to Jiraiya or Tsunade at that point. Jiraiya in the Pain fight, found out about another incredibly powerful ability he didn't even know Fusaku and Shima had, so if he was thought to be equivalent to the other Sannin before, he clearly was in reality stronger. In the war-arc Tsunade's Byakugo pushes her way above the other two Sannin, until Orochimaru gets improved Edo-Tensei and he is now the top Sannin.  So really at no point are the Sannin all equal in the manga-cannon.



> Even having witnessing that, Zetsu determines Itachi should have been significantly stronger, as in significantly stronger than the Itachi that just beat Orochimaru easily.


Orochimaru himself should have been significantly stronger. He lost his arms and jutsu to Shiki Fuujin, and at that point was disembodied leeching himself to Sasuke. So Itachi should have been significantly stronger, which was mostly not based on his display against Orochimaru, but his failures against Hebi-Sasuke, is really not that surprising.



> Itachi got hyped even more in the war arc(Shikaku postulating he was potentially influencing the whole alliance army at one point) beyond just the three techniques you mentioned but yeah the above is the bulk of the reason I didn?t believe Itachi?s statement, the war arc just made it less and less likely. I used some citations but didn?t want to scour the whole manga so I?ll find those later where asked.


And Jiraiya gets more hype through DBIV and his Toads. So again I think that is quite equal, beyond the fact that Itachi got more panel time at the end of the manga, though Jiraiya had gotten more panel time previously.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

Hussain said:


> If you are talking about the SA, then no one of them spoke anything about the others either. No one gave a damn about Hashirama or called him "god if shinobi" no one cared about Minato or called him "Yellow Flash" even Hiruzen himself no one called him even "the professor", and generally no one cares about Tobirama since he was just thrown in there with punch of retecons. lol


What's SA? But what I mean is that ever since Hashirama was introduced as God-Of-Shinobi, never once did Kishi reiterate this title for Hiruzen. Not in the Manga or DBIV.



> Still, those "massive gulf" can exist depending on how weaker Hiruzen got over the years. We have no clue about how powerful he was, or even who called him the strongest, and why...etc. All possibilities are there honestly.


Can exist and being anywhere close to likely to exists are very different concepts. Never once did Kishi show that Old-Age could make such a vast difference and provides no reason why it would make such a vast difference for Hiruzen specifically. The gulf is simply that large.



> Him knowing all the jutsu in konoha can be consider a hint. Also, he did not comment on Gai's Gates because obviously he was not there with them against madara (unless you mean something else?)


Again it had to do with Ninjutsu, not Taijutsu. And Hiruzen was never once indicated to be some Taijutsu master anywhere close to Gai. So again, is it possible, sure, anything is possible, but it's not at all likely from anything we've been shown or anything indicated in the manga.



> Although that's possible, but Hashirama and Madara crap was in the manga from part 1 when Narudo and Sasuke fought at the VOTE.


And I think the Retecon took place or was being at least considered around that time, because it was around that time that Kishi decided Sasuke would goto Orochimaru and had to start to plan out how events would shape from there.



> If they don't like X character, or it does not fit with what they draw about the characters in their head, they will use the weak/weaker.


Normally I would agree, the problem is their is a mountain of evidence against Hiruzen in this case, with no indication whatsoever to discount this evidence, despite Kishi having ample oppertunity to show otherwise.


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## FlamingRain (Apr 26, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Flamingrain, age shouldn't be the factor being focused on.​



It's not _the_ factor I'm focusing on.

I mean we the readers already knew Naruto was no S-Rank threat despite the Nine Tails, so there's no point for the readers on that front.

Saying,

_"Oh the Nine Tails Jinchūriki is so strong we might kill each other. Sure is a good thing we found him. 

But that living legend protecting him, though?with him as our enemy?.if we could just get around him we could simply go knock on the real threat's door without any sort of plan and see what happens "​_
also snaps any continuity like a twig.

Does that really sound right to you?

Why end the conversation contemplating a weakness of Jiraiya in order to try and get him out of the picture, if he wasn't even the actual issue here? If the first part of the conversation is about Naruto why is there not even a conclusion to it? What is the point of even bringing it up before bringing up Jiraiya? Where is their indication of a plan for Naruto?

If they were that concerned about _Naruto's_ strength they could have just left after their conversation on that rock. But not if it was about Jiraiya, the guard who they might have been able to sneak around, meaning Itachi had an incentive to at least try something to get to Naruto so that he doesn't blow his cover as a member of Akatsuki.



> They called Naruto "The Fourth's Legacy".​



The Fourth Hokage's legacy being the _Bijū sealed within Naruto_. Everybody older than Naruto knew that much, but not that they were father and son.

Doesn't change the fact that following this they exercised no caution whatsoever about snatching Naruto, despite doing such with Jiraiya, indicating that the one they were concerned about was?Jiraiya.



> He has been shown casually discarding a Sannin twice in the manga.



Casually?

Their second fight began with both already using their strongest techniques, which isn't casual nor is it reflective of the pacing of a normal fight between the two unless Itachi already acknowledges that he needs to use the Totsuka in order to kill Orochimaru. It also happened well after the statements in question were made.

Does Kisame even know _why_ Orochimaru left the Akatsuki? If he does, does he know _how_ the fight between him and Itachi actually went? Even we only see a snippet of Itachi and Orochimaru's first fight. One might say that what Kisame knew about that encounter was the basis for his opinion that Itachi might be able to take Jiraiya, if he even knew about it.



> _Nobody_ in Akatsuki has stated that they feel inferior to Sannin. Deidara, Sasori, Itachi, Pain, etc. have stated the opposite, in fact.​



Wanting to kill somebody doesn't translate into actually being as strong as the person you want to kill. Deidara wanted to kill Itachi, too.

There are power disparities in Akatsuki's ranks. When Sasuke was berated for having so much difficulty with Deidara despite being the man who defeated Orochimaru his explanation was that it was because Orochimaru was weakened when he beat him, not that Deidara was simply that strong. Orochimaru intended to go kill Sasori at the Tenchi Bridge, and Pain recognized Jiraiya as a threat just going by his Chakra before later admitting that he wouldn't have beaten him had he not kept his other bodies a secret. We saw for ourselves Kisame nearly getting himself killed by Jiraiya and Konan being shut down in two moves.



> When Jiraiya was in Suna, he also equated his level to a typical Akatsuki member.​



This never happened.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

There's no reason to even entertain the statement is about Kurama when every translator ever has said it's about Jiriaya and the Japanese people themselves treat the statement as if it were about Jiriaya.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 26, 2015)

I do agree that the statement wasn't in regards to Kurama, though it's likely both Itachi (Healthy) and Part 2 Kisame are portrayed to be much stronger than their Part 1 counterparts due to Part 2 Power Inflation and the fact that Jiraiya outright stated that they develop new jutsu along their quest of attaining all of the Bijuu.

 I really don't think it's a fair assumption for Base Jiraiya >= Kisame + Itachi. With feats that have been shown, I simply do believe that it would be illogical. All that scan has shown that Jiraiya could potentially be a nuissance and clearly both were basing it off of hype as Kisame noted how Jiraiya's title was held in higher regard than being one of the Seven Swordsman or the Uchiha that annihilated the entire Uchiha clan.

 That's my opinion on it anyways.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I do agree that the statement wasn't in regards to Kurama, though it's likely both Itachi (Healthy) and Part 2 Kisame are portrayed to be much stronger than their Part 1 counterparts due to Part 2 Power Inflation and the fact that Jiraiya outright stated that they develop new jutsu along their quest of attaining all of the Bijuu.


Jiraiya was also subject to Part 2 power inflation.



> I really don't think it's a fair assumption for Base Jiraiya >= Kisame + Itachi. With feats that have been shown, I simply do believe that it would be illogical. All that scan has shown that Jiraiya could potentially be a nuissance and clearly both were basing it off of hype as Kisame noted how Jiraiya's title was held in higher regard than being one of the Seven Swordsman or the Uchiha that annihilated the entire Uchiha clan.


The statement is not that Base-Jiraiya > Kisame + Itachi.  The statement is more along the lines of Jiriaya >= Itachi, with Kisame being largely irrelevant because his "level" is too far off from theirs.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 26, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Jiraiya was also subject to Part 2 power inflation.



 I was referring to Base Jiraiya. SM Jiraiya may or may not be above Kisame. I'm part of the minority who believes Part 2 Kisame could actually defeat SM Jiraiya.



> The statement is not that Base-Jiraiya > Kisame + Itachi.  The statement is more along the lines of Jiriaya >= Itachi, with Kisame being largely irrelevant because his "level" is too far off from theirs.



 What implications do we have that Kisame would be vastly inferior to Itachi?

 If he was, it seems rather ridiculous to me to see Kisame actually feel rather confident fighting Hebi Sasuke and his team with Hebi Sasuke being believed to actually  be considered a threat against Itachi. That's partially why I would think Kisame especially was subject to a huge Part 2 Power Inflation compared to Jiraiya and Itachi if he truly was vastly inferior to both of them.


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## Turrin (Apr 26, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I was referring to Base Jiraiya. SM Jiraiya may or may not be above Kisame. I'm part of the minority who believes Part 2 Kisame could actually defeat SM Jiraiya.


P2-Kisame could beat SM-Jiraiya, but he could also beat Itachi. However that relies completely on him having stolen enough chakra to be at that "level". One has to remember the times Kisame was really impressive were when he absorbed massive quantities of Hachibi chakra. As Kisame himself says, his strength grows in proportion to the amount of chakra he steals. So Kisame has a huge growth rate when he can absorb large quantities of chakra



> What implications do we have that Kisame would be vastly inferior to Itachi?


Kisame stating Jiraiya was on a whole other "level" to him, but Itachi could perform much better against him. Itachi stating Kisame would have a rough time w/ Part I-Kakashi. The DB saying the following:

"For Akatsuki's mission, Kisame travels together with Itachi, but at times he
shows unexpected docileness towards him. Is it from loyalty to the organization
and comrades or is it from the fact that Itachi's power surpasses his own"

"He shows a sense of awe for Itachi's ability"

The fact that Kisame said he had trouble with Roshi and is always playing second fiddle to Itachi.



> If he was, it seems rather ridiculous to me to see Kisame actually feel rather confident fight Hebi Sasuke and his team with Hebi Sasuke being believed to actually be posed a threat to Itachi. That's partially why I would think Kisame especially was subject to a huge Part 2 Power Inflation compared to Jiraiya and Itachi if he truly was vastly inferior to both of them.


Hebi-Sasuke was much weaker than Itachi, and Kisame had just chowed down on Yonbi-Chakra previously in that arc. Plus I don't remember him really being confident about taking down Team-Hebi, but more confident about the fact that he could take on Suigetsu, Karin, and Juugo, and that Sasuke would go ahead to meet with Itachi.


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## UchihaX28 (Apr 26, 2015)

Turrin said:


> P2-Kisame could beat SM-Jiraiya, but he could also beat Itachi. However that relies completely on him having stolen enough chakra to be at that "level". One has to remember the times Kisame was really impressive were when he absorbed massive quantities of Hachibi chakra. As Kisame himself says, his strength grows in proportion to the amount of chakra he steals. So Kisame has a huge growth rate when he can absorb large quantities of chakra



 This is true and I can certainly agree with that.




> Kisame stating Jiraiya was on a whole other "level" to him, but Itachi could perform much better against him. Itachi stating Kisame would have a rough time w/ Part I-Kakashi. The DB saying the following:
> 
> "For Akatsuki's mission, Kisame travels together with Itachi, but at times he
> shows unexpected docileness towards him. Is it from loyalty to the organization
> ...



 I don't necessarily believe Kisame claiming Roshi was a difficult opponent is an excuse to nerf Kisame as we don't know the specifics of the fight. Considering the Hachibi even wanting Bee to use Bijuu Mode implies Roshi and Goku would do the same seeing how Goku isn't as analytical as the Hachibi and we know most Bijuu are portrayed to be fairly strong (though unfortunately portrayal of the Bijuus is different back then than what it was in the War Arc). 

 Those quotes are convincing however, so I'll take your word for it. After all, Kisame isn't one to show loyalty to a comrade unless they were superior to them or if they were Obito ....



> Hebi-Sasuke was much weaker than Itachi, and Kisame had just chowed down on Yonbi-Chakra previously in that arc. Plus I don't remember him really being confident about taking down Team-Hebi, but more confident about the fact that he could take on Suigetsu, Karin, and Juugo, and that Sasuke would go ahead to meet with Itachi.



 Kisame certainly was confident as he mentioned about interfering if Hebi Sasuke didn't conform to his wishes. Hebi Sasuke being much weaker than Itachi at that time is never once implied and quite the opposite as Hebi Sasuke was only confirmed to be inferior to Sick Itachi prior to absorbing Orochimaru. Kisame is also well aware that Hebi Sasuke defeated Orochimaru with the only person at the time who officially defeated Orochimaru was Itachi, so Kisame would certainly believe that Hebi Sasuke would pose a threat towards Itachi.

 Him chowing down on Yonbi Chakra really shouldn't change anything considering Kisame admitted he struggled and the fact that Kisame seemed deprived of chara though I have no idea if that was in relation to Kisame's "bushin feint" in order to infiltrate the Island through hiding in Samehada.


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## Turrin (Apr 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> I don't necessarily believe Kisame claiming Roshi was a difficult opponent is an excuse to nerf Kisame as we don't know the specifics of the fight. Considering the Hachibi even wanting Bee to use Bijuu Mode implies Roshi and Goku would do the same seeing how Goku isn't as analytical as the Hachibi and we know most Bijuu are portrayed to be fairly strong (though unfortunately portrayal of the Bijuus is different back then than what it was in the War Arc).


The problem I have is Kisame says the Yonbi Jinchuuriki, not the Yonbi. I also don't really see any reason to believe Roshi was a perfect Jinchuuriki that could use Full-Bijuu Mode, as he was not listed among the perfect jins during the Kage summit. I think Kisame had a tough time with Roshi simply because Kisame is not that strong, unless he absorbed chakra. That's why at first he was struggling with Base-B and than was putting up a fight against V1/V2-B and eventually owning V2-B, because he kept growing stronger the more chakra he absorbed.



> Kisame certainly was confident as he mentioned about interfering if Hebi Sasuke didn't conform to his wishes.


Yeah, but again I take that as confidence that Sasuke would not risk fighting him before meeting Itachi. Ether that or, like I said after absorbing Yonbi Chakra, he was stronger than he was before.



> Hebi Sasuke being much weaker than Itachi at that time is never once implied and quite the opposite as Hebi Sasuke was only confirmed to be inferior to Sick Itachi prior to absorbing Orochimaru. Kisame is also well aware that Hebi Sasuke defeated Orochimaru with the only person at the time who officially defeated Orochimaru was Itachi, so Kisame would certainly believe that Hebi Sasuke would pose a threat towards Itachi.


I think Hebi-Sasuke being weaker than Sick-Itachi was confirmed by Tobi stating Itachi could have killed him if he wished and was intentionally taking it easy on him.



> Him chowing down on Yonbi Chakra really shouldn't change anything considering Kisame admitted he struggled and the fact that Kisame seemed deprived of chara though I have no idea if that was in relation to Kisame's "bushin feint" in order to infiltrate the Island through hiding in Samehada.


When did Kisame say he was deprived of chakra after facing Roshi?


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## Icegaze (Apr 30, 2015)

Kyu said:


> Played Jiraiya's story in Storm 2 yesterday(shit is done fairly well) and that led me trying to figure out what the consensus is on his strength around here.
> 
> Note: SM Jiraiya at full power
> 
> ...



Not going to get into ur rankings
In the akatsuki he will be on itachi level so top 3 on the list 

Previous Kage he will be below Tobirama . So mid of the Kage pool 

Previous gokage . He is stronger than all of them . Onoki only beats him if he doesn't start in SM

He will beat shukaku, nibi, and perhaps sanbi

So jiriaya is mid on the list 

I see him loosing to the rest as they have abilities which would counter jiriayas 

Not a bad match up though could do a thread about that 

Oil trolls shukaku . So jiriaya should take that 
Nibi bar BD isn't hard to handle at all 
Sanbi is the same

Yonbi and up should beat him 

Though 7 tails could be beat as well


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