# Strongest Akatsuki Duo That Itachi Can Beat



## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Similar sentiment to the  I created. This time, the challenge is on Itachi.

Name the strongest pair/s among the Akatsuki members you can think of that can be single handedly defeated by Itachi (sick and healthy) and EXPLAIN. It doesn't necessarily have to be a canonical pair btw (Sasori & Deidara/ Hidan & Kakuzu). You can also randomly pair anyone with someone as long as you think fits the bill.

Location: Forest of Death

Distance: 50m

Mindset: IC

Knowledge: Manga

Restrictions: None (Yeah, assume that he never gave KA to Nardo)


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Konan and Hidan. Both vulnerable to Genjutsu, Paper burns, and immortality doesn't exist with Totsuka around.

I would've chosen Sasori over Hidan since he's slower, but the fact he doesn't have tangible eye balls makes Genjutsu iffy, and since Itachi is the lazy type, he'd rather just KO via finger.

Problem with Hidan is Itachi might not know to behead him, though it's doubtful as they labeled him part of the "Zombie Team", meaning Itachi probably knows Hidan is immortal.

I would've put stronger opponents but I'm assuming this is sick Itachi, and there really isn't a different pair that Itachi would have a 100% guarantee in defeating as the remaining members are 
Kisame: Teammate (extended knowledge), Chakra Sapper, clear threat
Nagato: Nuff said
Obito: Nuff said
Kakuzu: Definite chance of a blindside kill (see Kakashi)
Deidara: Detailed knowledge on his Genjutsu, C0 can draw
Sasori: Chance of poisoning, Genjutsu resistance


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

Itachi has Kotoamatsukami?

Kisame and Sasori. I'd be tempted to say Kisame and Nagato if he could get Kotoamatsukami off on one of them and turn them into his ally. This is assuming he's allowed to use it. It's broken for Battledome fights, since no one cares about the 10 year cooldown for a single BD fight.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi has Kotoamatsukami?
> 
> Kisame and Sasori. I'd be tempted to say Kisame and Nagato if he could get Kotoamatsukami off on one of them and turn them into his ally. This is assuming he's allowed to use it. It's broken for Battledome fights, since no one cares about the 10 year cooldown for a single BD fight.


Sick Itachi drops dead after using it. 

The 2nd partner lives on, the 1st is unaffected as Itachi died before giving him orders. 

Moving on..


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Yeah Itachi dropped dead after giving it to Naruto. 

And yeah, the manga also states that the user dies after using it.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Nate River said:


> Yeah Itachi dropped dead after giving it to Naruto.
> 
> And yeah, the manga also states that anyone dies after using it.


A healthy Itachi cried to Kisame for a nap after using his own MS in pre-skip.

Though again, I'm not sure why I'm responding to you. Where am I?


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Spare my thread, smart guy.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Nate River said:


> Spare my thread, smart guy.


As a testament to its power it was strong enough to even negate Kabuto Yakushi's control over the reincarnated Itachi Uchiha, in spite of the former's authority being considered almost absolute. After the technique is used, it requires around a decade before it can be used again, but this period can be drastically reduced through the possession of Hashirama Senju's cells, as observed by Danzō Shimura's use.[2] However, despite the additional stamina granted by Hashirama's cells, it is asserted that this technique still can't be used multiple times in a single day.[3]

Itachi blows his chakra pool on a single MS use while healthy, fuck it.

-snip-


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

Well if we're going to go that far into canon then, Itachi wins because the other two, seeing that their opponent is Itachi, quickly swear undying loyalty and join his side.

They all get some BBQ in celebration. Kisame gets drunk and vomits up a small ocean. Konoha gets completely submerged. Somehow only Sakura dies in the destruction, and all of Konoha rejoices.

Except for Lee, who is somewhere right now hanging from a tree in depression.

Really this should be an Itachi, Kisame, and Nagato vs Lee thread. Lee gets (his heart) stomped.

Moving on.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

Also Itachi dying after 1 MS use while sick is fanfiction. He used well over 4 when he fought Sasuke.


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi has Kotoamatsukami?
> 
> Kisame and Sasori. I'd be tempted to say Kisame and Nagato if he could get Kotoamatsukami off on one of them and turn them into his ally. This is assuming he's allowed to use it. It's broken for Battledome fights, since no one cares about the 10 year cooldown for a single BD fight.



I'm not restricting it though, seeing as this is also a part of his arsenal. If the general consensus considers KA as part of Danzo's arsenal, then I think it will only be fair to include it to Itachi's as well.

But then again, it shall come down upon Itachi's willingness to utilize it. And that of course is dependent upon anyone's judgment and analysis on how the fight plays out.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Also Itachi dying after 1 MS use while sick is fanfiction. He used well over 4 when he fought Sasuke.


Edit, Copy. Edit, Paste.

As a testament to its power it was strong enough to even negate Kabuto Yakushi's control over the reincarnated Itachi Uchiha, in spite of the former's authority being considered almost absolute. After the technique is used, it requires around a decade before it can be used again, but this period can be drastically reduced through the possession of Hashirama Senju's cells, as observed by Danzō Shimura's use.[2] However, despite the additional stamina granted by Hashirama's cells, it is asserted that this technique still can't be used multiple times in a single day.[3]

Itachi blows his chakra pool on a single MS use while healthy, fuck it: 

Ninja aids blind Itachi says Justin is right so let's spam the most powerful Genjutsu in existence with a 10 year cool down and surely I'll remain unaffected.

As Itachi's corpse is eaten by his own crows he looks back on the mistakes he made and vows to never again listen to Justin the Uchiha Wanker.


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## Ersa (Feb 9, 2013)

*Sick Itachi* - Kisame and Kakuzu.

Totsuka for Kakuzu and Kisame can be put down with Tsukiyomi. Well within the limits of Sick Itachi's chakra pool though he'd be pretty damn tired after.

*Edo Itachi* - MS Sasuke & Six Paths of Pain


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

Nowhere does what you posted state that using the technique would drain all the user's chakra, or that it's any more draining than any other MS Jutsu. It only states that the technique itself becomes inactive for 10 or so years, regardless of the user's chakra level. No one's speaking of Itachi spamming it. We're assuming it's being used once.

This is assuming Itachi is sick, but there are no restrictions, so...


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Also Itachi dying after 1 MS use while sick is fanfiction. He used well over 4 when he fought Sasuke.



That's true. In fact, only Susano'o has been indicated to have such a devastating effect on the user's body- apart from Izanami that takes away the 'light' of the user's eye.

And really, there's no need for Itachi to use KA more than once.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

I mean, fuck. A fucking CROW used Kotoamatsukami and didn't keel over. Either that crow was fucking Chuck Norris, or Kotoamatsukami's strain is being blown out of proportion.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Nowhere does what you posted state that using the technique would drain all the user's chakra, or that it's any more draining than any other MS Jutsu. It only states that the technique itself becomes inactive for 10 or so years, regardless of the user's chakra level. No one's speaking of Itachi spamming it. We're assuming it's being used once.
> 
> This is assuming Itachi is sick, but there are no restrictions, so...


Except Itachi's most powerful MS Genjutsu drained his chakras entirely in pre-skip, when he was healthy, and he admitted this technique is more powerful. 

-10 year cool down
-Senjus (Hashirama, Tsunade, Naruto, Nagato- Largest pools) can't even spam it
-Itachi is blind and has aids

On a final note, how exactly does he use it? Does he summon the crow and speak chirp to have him use it? Hopefully the crow's chakra pool is worthy. No, better yet, he does an eye transplant in mid-combat only to die from ninja aids after using it.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

Obviously he wasn't truly drained back then, and was using it for an excuse, since we've seen a sick Itachi use Tsukuyomi, a few Amaterasu, and then stopped the one Amaterasu, and then Susano'o, among a few other Jutsu, without keeling over sans his disease. We have seen that he's capable of more even when sick. No use denying it. I'll disregard such denial because it's flat out wrong.

No one is saying he's going to spam it. Not sure _why_ you keep bringing this up. Since it has a 10 year cool down, which you yourself mentioned, it's kind of obvious it can't be spammed.

I don't see in the OP stating Itachi is sick or blind, though it didn't stop him from catching Sasuke in Tsukuyomi or from using multiple MS jutsu anyway, so this point is moot as well.

I thought it was self-explanitory that it's used via his crow. This is just assuming he never gave the crow to Naruto. Why question if the crow's chakra pool is worthy enough to use it, since it already HAS used it in the manga, without keeling over? Obviously it is worthy, since it... you know... used it


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

Justin, ignore that dude. He's an obvious Itachi hater, one that can't be reasoned with.

Let's move on. 

Editing the OP, BTW.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

I actually do have him on ignore, ironically. His arguments are too funny though. It feels like I'm fighting a CPU on Ninja Storm Generations at Very Weak difficulty with  my handicap all the way up lol.


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## Doge (Feb 9, 2013)

Rasant said:


> *Edo Itachi* - MS Sasuke & Six Paths of Pain



I was gonna rage, but Edo Itachi would not be able to die after Human path gets destroyed.

Heck, ANY Edo Tensei could beat Hidan, Kakuzu, Konan, Sasuke, and Kisame all at the same time considering they don't have a way to seal them.


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## Ersa (Feb 9, 2013)

Itachi can probably Koto Obito and then together they destroy Nagato.

With Koto not restricted, Sick/Edo can take Obito/Nagato.

Koto is far too broken, I'm not even joking


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

This thread showed me first-hand how broken Kotoamatsukami is, by placing it on the side of the character I'm routing for. It turns an "Itachi solo against Character A and Character B" into "Itachi and Character A/B against solo Character A/B".


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

> Obviously he wasn't truly drained back then, and was using it for an excuse, since we've seen a sick Itachi use Tsukuyomi, a few Amaterasu, and then stopped the one Amaterasu, and then Susano'o, among a few other Jutsu, without keeling over sans his disease. We have seen he's capable of more. No use denying it.


Obviously he was? There was generally no reason to back out and the Genjutsu was powerful enough to put Kakashi in a coma for a week. Canonically, it's the second strongest Genjutsu on panel.

He pumped a large amount of chakra into the Genjutsu to immediately take Kakashi out of the fight. It was clearly a specialized version of Tsukuyomi, one that tortures the opponent's mind for 42 hours over a second. Sasuke's doesn't do this, neither does Madara's. 



> No one is saying he's going to spam it. Not sure _why_ you keep bringing this up. Since it has a 10 year cool down, which you yourself mentioned, it's kind of obvious it can't be spammed.


If he uses it at all you're suggesting is he'll have enough chakra left to fight the other opponent, which is absurd. 



> I don't see in the OP stating Itachi is sick or blind, though it didn't stop him from catching Sasuke in Tsukuyomi or from using multiple MS jutsu anyway, so this point is moot as well.


Itachi was sick and blind when his best features came about. The only partially healthy example of Itachi is that of a man who ran after the use of one specialized MS Genjutsu, one that is weaker than Koto. 



> I thought it was self-explanitory that it's used via his crow. This is just assuming he never gave the crow to Naruto. Why question if the crow's chakra pool is worthy enough to use it, since it already HAS used it in the manga, without keeling over? Obviously it is.


Because you failed to explain how the crow knows when to use it and on whom. It's a mindless animal. Should the crow use it, what happens? Does the crow order the opponent to kill himself or bring it bird seeds? 

The only affect koto had was severing Kabuto's control of Itachi which was never explained how.


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## Seiji (Feb 9, 2013)

And guys, edo Itachi isn't included by the way.



Jυstin said:


> This thread showed me first-hand how broken Kotoamatsukami is, by placing it on the side of the character I'm routing for. It turns an "Itachi solo against Character A and Character B" into "Itachi and Character A/B against solo Character A/B".



I was thinking of restricting Koto as it might make this thread one sided. Apparently, there's someone who claims that he's gonna die once using it and that made me lost interest into unrestricting it.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

> Obviously he was? There was generally no reason to back out and the Genjutsu was powerful enough to put Kakashi in a coma for a week. Canonically, it's the second strongest Genjutsu on panel.
> 
> He pumped a large amount of chakra into the Genjutsu to immediately take Kakashi out of the fight. It was clearly a specialized version of Tsukuyomi, one that tortures the opponent's mind for 42 hours over a second. Sasuke's doesn't do this, neither does Madara's.



There was huge reason to back out. I'm not going to argue with someone over the fact that Itachi wasn't there for Naruto, nor to kill anyone. Kisame and Kakashi even questioned why Itachi didn't kill him, and Itachi said he didn't want to kill anyone, and Asuma questioned why someone who killed his clan would say that. We're told Itachi only returned to Konoha to let Danzou know he was alive. He had no reason to continue fighting.

And obviously what you spouted about Tsukuyomi is unsubstantiated bullshit. There's no evidence it was a special Tsukuyomi or that pumped more chakra into it. It doesn't change the fact that Itachi is capable of multiple MS Jutsu when sick, without keeling over.



> If he uses it at all you're suggesting is he'll have enough chakra left to fight the other opponent, which is absurd.



It's not absurd. Itachi can use multiple MS Genjutsu even when sick without keeling over. You're trying to quantify the amount of chakra it drains when you have nothing to substantiate it with. Obviously the drain on chakra wasn't enough to kill his crow when it used it. You're being absurd.



> Itachi was sick and blind when his best features came about. The only partially healthy example of Itachi is that of a man who ran after the use of one specialized MS Genjutsu, one that is weaker than Koto.



I'm glad you admitted Itachi performed better when sick (though not better than his Edo self). If Itachi could use all those MS Jutsu while sick without keeling over, he obviously could replicate this feat when healthy. Again, you're assuming something about Koto's chakra consumption that you can't substantiate. Disregarding.



> Because you failed to explain how the crow knows when to use it and on whom. It's a mindless animal. Should the crow use it, what happens? Does the crow order the opponent to kill himself or bring it bird seeds?



Itachi dictates how and when it activates, as he said he does. He gives it the trigger, or since he's in possession of it, can trigger it himself. If it's used, it puts the opponent in a strong Genjutsu, where the victim must follow the orders given to them by the caster.



> The only affect koto had was severing Kabuto's control of Itachi which was never explained how.



Yes, it was. I'm getting the feeling you don't really read the manga, or pay attention. The Genjutsu forces an order on the opponent, given by the user, that the opponent must follow. The order Itachi gave the Kotoamatsukami that affected him was, as he said, "Protect Konoha". It was set to force anyone trapped in the Genjutsu to protect Konoha by any means.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 9, 2013)

> There was huge reason to back out. I'm not going to argue with someone over the fact that Itachi wasn't there for Naruto, nor to kill anyone. Kisame and Kakashi even questioned why Itachi didn't kill him, and Itachi said he didn't want to kill anyone, and Asuma questioned why someone who killed his clan would say that. We're told Itachi only returned to Konoha to let Danzou know he was alive. He had no reason to continue fighting.


Kisame questioned why he wanted to leave, he answered with "My body needs to be at rest." This after using advanced Tsukuyomi twice and Amy once, while healthy. 



> And obviously what you spouted about Tsukuyomi is unsubstantiated bullshit. There's no evidence it was a special Tsukuyomi or that pumped more chakra into it. It doesn't change the fact that Itachi is capable of multiple MS Jutsu when sick, without keeling over.


How so? Kakashi passed out and Sasuke was in the hospital with him. Itachi's other Tsukuyomi never did that, the same goes for Sasuke's and Madara's. 



> It's not absurd. Itachi can use multiple MS Genjutsu even when sick without keeling over. You're trying to quantify the amount of chakra it drains when you have nothing to substantiate it with. Obviously the drain on chakra wasn't enough to kill his crow when it used it. You're being absurd.


We know the affects of MS while healthy and ill aren't the same, the difference is his heart won't stop when he's healthy, he'd probably just pass out. Using the MS emits a high level of stress and damage to the body, such was obvious when Sasuke and Itachi's eyes bleed after use and they grab their heads in severe pain, leaving a clear opening for the opponent to strike (Bee, Sasuke). Sasuke doesn't die though, because he doesn't have ninja aids. Itachi did, and Kishimoto gave him a hella while. 



> I'm glad you admitted Itachi performed better when sick (though not better than his Edo self). If Itachi could use all those MS Jutsu while sick without keeling over, he obviously could replicate this feat when healthy. Again, you're assuming something about Koto's chakra consumption that you can't substantiate. Disregarding.


Koto's chakra consumption must be greater than his advanced Tsukuyomi because it's a stronger Genjutsu. The follow-up evidence to that is the fact Senjus (particularly Hashirama) can't use it more than once a day and the cool down is 10 years. Is that not an obvious indicator that it is extremely taxing on the body? 



> Itachi dictates how and when it activates, as he said he does. He gives it the trigger, or since he's in possession of it, can trigger it himself. If it's used, it puts the opponent in a strong Genjutsu, where the victim must follow the orders given to them by the caster.


You make absolutely no sense. I asked for an explanation how a wild bird will utilize the Genjutsu and you reply with a baseless "Itachi will figure it out". 



> Yes, it was. I'm getting the feeling you don't really read the manga, or pay attention. The Genjutsu forces an order on the opponent, given by the user, that the opponent must follow. The order Itachi gave the Kotoamatsukami that affected him was, as he said, "Protect Konoha". It was set to force anyone trapped in the Genjutsu to protect Konoha by any means.


I read it frequently, and that part is common knowledge. What you didn't explain is how the Genjutsu defeated Kabuto's "absolute" control which transcends distance and allows him to peer into their visuals and literally remotely control an individual's specific movements and decisions, clearly superior to a one-order Genjutsu.


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## Jυstin (Feb 9, 2013)

It was already later stated why Itachi was in Konoha. He wasn't like, "Oh yeah. I totally want to capture Naruto-kun and kill all of you. I'll do it later when my chakra's replenished, kay?". He'd passed on opportunities to kill and flat out stated he didn't wish to kill any of them, even before we're flat out told he wasn't there to fight. Your argument is supported on the assertion that the thing that kept Itachi from continuing the fight was his fatigue, which is false when we're told that he didn't go to Konoha to fight in the first place.

Itachi's Tsukuyomi on little Sasuke put him out for quite a while as well. The only other time it's used is on Sasuke in part 2, which Itachi allowed him to break out of, so he didn't suffer its full effects.

The difference isn't only his heart won't stop when he's healthy. We've seen him fire off over 4 MS Jutsu, among other Jutsu in an all-out fight, while sick. There's no reason to believe he couldn't do this when his body is in a _better_ condition. That would be retarded even by animal reasoning's standards. Healthy Itachi didn't clutch his head in pain when he used MS Jutsu. MS isn't even what killed Itachi. His disease was, confirmed when Obito, speaking of Itachi's virus, shows us a panel referring to the heart attack he had moments before his death, because it was caused by his disease. He was already in such a bad physical condition that he'd taken medicine to prolong his life, because otherwise he would have been dead before his fight even started. That's how far Itachi was already in the grave, and he still managed all those techniques.

The time period between use of Kotoamatsukami has nothing to do with chakra consumption. If it did, then the time would vary since not everyone has the same chakra, but it's 10 years regardless who uses it, unless they possess Senju DNA. Consider that if a ninja uses up almost all their chakra, they need only rest a few days to replenish it completely. Kotoamatsukami requires 10 *years* to be able to use it again. This would mean that the user would have no chakra for several years, if this were the case. In fact, that amount of time is so steep compared to just a couple days of recovering, that it would kill *anyone* over a couple dozen times over. *NO ONE* would be able to use Kotoamatsukami without dying, or use a technique that required that much chakra at all, if it drained their chakra so much that they couldn't use it for 10 years. Certainly a crow wouldn't be able to use it.

No. It's just the cool-down for the Jutsu itself. Even if it's more costly than Tsukuyomi, that alone isn't evidence enough to say it would kill someone like Itachi, who had no trouble using it through a mere crow. This point is getting disregarded as well.

I already explained how the Jutsu works. Like any MS Jutsu, it can be cast by the user's will, but as Itachi demonstrated with Amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami, he can give their activation triggers as well, such as upon seeing certain things, like another Sharingan, for instance. If Itachi doesn't activate it himself, he provides the instructions on what will activate it, as he's already done twice. Why are you asking how a wild bird (it's not wild, it's Itachi's) will utilize said Jutsu when it *ALREADY HAS* in the manga? It did so because Itachi told it when and how to.

And I did explain it. Kabuto's control was overwritten by the order given to Itachi by Kotoamatsukami. The order was to "Protect Konoha". Kotoamatsukami is a Genjutsu where the user takes control over the victim, and enforces an order on them which they have to obey. The control of this order is even greater than the control that Edo Tensei has over its summons, as it's able to override the orders given to the Edo Tensei summons by the summoner.

It seems like you're almost trying to deny something in the manga that happened... happened. It happened. No use arguing that it can't. I'm explaining how it happened. Kotoamatsukami's control over the victim is stronger than Edo Tensei's control over the summon.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Feb 9, 2013)

With Kotoamatsukami, Itachi can attain victory over Nagato and Pre-Rinnegan Obito.

If it is excluded from this match-up, however, he would defeat any Akatsuki combination - bar the aforementioned members - but his arsenal is deadly against individuals who lack suitable methods to counter such abilities; he has the potential to eliminate three of them, though, being there is a spontaneous change of temperament. 

Kotoamatsukami:

Included - The entire Akatsuki (if Nagato happens to be his pawn)
Excluded - Deidara, Kisame and Sasori


People must realize that Itachi will be more inclined to utilize MS techniques.


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## Dr. White (Feb 9, 2013)

Strongest Duo would be Full powered Deva and Kisame. Ama, Tsuku and Susano would solo them(I assume if Itachi was ever in this situation he would get 100% serious from the start, essentially a logical bloodlusted character). Overall I don't think any other duo barring Pain and Tobi is stronger than the 6 paths though. So I say

Itachi beats
-*Every combo barring:*
-Tobi+Anyone from Akatsuki barring Hidan who gets soloed off the bat.
-6 Paths + Anyone 
-Diedara + Kisame, Deva, or Tobi.

With Kotoamatsuki no he has a chance at beating any duo.


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## richard lewis (Feb 10, 2013)

Rasant said:


> *Sick Itachi* - Kisame and Kakuzu.
> 
> Totsuka for Kakuzu and Kisame can be put down with Tsukiyomi. Well within the limits of Sick Itachi's chakra pool though he'd be pretty damn tired after.
> 
> *Edo Itachi* - *MS Sasuke & Six Paths of Pain*



I seriously doubt he could solo sasuke an pain at the same time. pain alone would be a challenge


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## LostSelf (Feb 10, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Itachi has Kotoamatsukami?
> 
> Kisame and Sasori. I'd be tempted to say Kisame and Nagato if he could get Kotoamatsukami off on one of them and turn them into his ally. This is assuming he's allowed to use it. It's broken for Battledome fights, since no one cares about the 10 year cooldown for a single BD fight.



Itachi's Koto was programmed to be used on Itachi's eyes (And i'm pretty sure it needs eye contact since it's a visual genjutsu). I think OP should specify if KA would do something more than that, because right now, i don't know how it will help other than putting Itachi or an EMS Sasuke in genjutsu.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Itachi's Koto was programmed to be used on Itachi's eyes (And i'm pretty sure it needs eye contact since it's a visual genjutsu). I think OP should specify if KA would do something more than that, because right now, i don't know how it will help other than putting Itachi or an EMS Sasuke in genjutsu.



Or he can just change the command of koto 

Thats like saying itachi can't use amatsuru on tsunade because he only ever used it on nagato and sasuke. 

It is shown that eye contact isn't required. itachi could easily trigger koto by telling it's bird as soon as you see this person make him my pawn.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 10, 2013)

Living Itachi probably caps out at Kakuzu + Hidan/Konan. Any combo of Sasori/Deidara/Kisame/Orochimaru should win more times than not

Edo Itachi w/ _Kotoamatsukami_ can beat any combo excluding Nagato/Obito (both who can solo regardless of which incarnation Itachi is, let alone both at the same time)


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 10, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Living Itachi probably caps out at Kakuzu + Hidan/Konan. Any combo of Sasori/Deidara/Kisame/Orochimaru should win more times than not
> 
> Edo Itachi w/ _Kotoamatsukami_ can beat any combo excluding Nagato/Obito (both who can solo regardless of which incarnation Itachi is, let alone both at the same time)



How does Nagato or obito beat koto

And i'll agree either one of obito or nagato can beat itachi w/o koto and with obito being 95% the winner in their encounter. But hell nagato and itachi are roughly equals you saying itachi stands no chance is ridicules.


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## Joakim3 (Feb 10, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> How does Nagato or obito beat koto
> 
> And i'll agree either one of obito or nagato can beat itachi w/o koto and with obito being 95% the winner in their encounter. But hell nagato and itachi are roughly equals you saying itachi stands no chance is ridicules.



Becuause Nagato canonically uses a set of _Pein Rikudo_..... which are immune?

People like to separate _Pain_ & Nagato when canonically thats not the case, Itachi would never be able to fight Nagato without going through his paths.


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## Nikushimi (Feb 10, 2013)

If Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami here, then he can beat any pair. 

But I'm gonna assume he doesn't have that, since he never did in the manga and it would be kinda cheap to steal one of his opponents as an ally anyway (since it wouldn't be Itachi who wins- it would be Itachi + whoever else he brainwashed, as a team).


The strongest pair Itachi can beat is Pain and Konan, but that's ONLY if he can dispatch Konan quickly at the beginning of the fight using Tsukuyomi or Amaterasu. And beating Pain would still be a daunting task that he might not accomplish after using his Mangekyou Sharingan, to say nothing of how unlikely it would be for him to resort to that right off the bat. Most likely, Konan would stick around for a while and assist Pain, and Itachi would be outmatched.

Alternatively, Itachi could beat Sasori and Deidara, but they are somewhat better-equipped to deal with his Jutsu. And he wouldn't be able to pull it off, more often than not.


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## Seiji (Feb 10, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Itachi can use Kotoamatsukami here, then he can beat any pair.
> 
> But I'm gonna assume he doesn't have that, since he never did in the manga and it would be kinda cheap to steal one of his opponents as an ally anyway (since it wouldn't be Itachi who wins- it would be Itachi + whoever else he brainwashed, as a team





Nate River said:


> I was thinking of restricting Koto as it might make this thread one sided. Apparently, there's someone who claims that he's gonna die once using it and that made me lost interest into unrestricting it.



 

Of course, it's up to you what kind of Itachi you want to discuss, be it healthy or sick Itachi or Iiving Itachi with KA.  Or all of 'em. Any Itachi version.


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## Turrin (Feb 10, 2013)

Even if he never gave KA to Naruto, KA is still not recharged while Itachi was alive, so he can't use it.

Basically the answer is any combo with Hidan or Zetsu besides (Nagato + Hidan/Zetsu & Obito + Hidan/Zetsu, Orochimaru/Sasuke + Hidan/Zetsu  too if you count Orochi/Sasuke as Akatsuki). So probably Sasori or Kisame + Hidan/Zetsu is the strongest combo he could certainly beat solo. 

On the more debatable side you could do some Konan combos. For example Sasori + Konan or Kisame + Konan are debatable depending on how strong you think Konan is suppose to be seen w/o Prep for Paper Ocean. 


Kakuzu + Kisame seems like too much for Itachi while having his chakra absorbed and being drowned at the same time. Sasori + Kakuzu seems like too much to handle when he only has to be scratched by Sasori's poison to loose. Not to say he has no chance against these combos, but I don't find his chances very high.

Kisame & Sasori, just seems like way to much to handle. To avoid getting a single scratch from Sasori while being drowned and chakra absorbed by Kisame, it just too much.

Orochi with any partner who can hold Itachi at bay long enough for Orochi to cast Edo Tensei would almost certainly beat Itachi unless the Edo Hokages are significantly handicapped for some reason or Orochimaru acts like a dumbass. Even Hidan and Zetsu could probably hold Itachi off for the time it takes to cast Edo Tensei and place the tags in the Edos heads. Plus who knows how strong Orochi is now that he has Hashirama DNA. Unless of course Orochi acts like a fool and stares Itachi in the eyes.

EMS Sasuke alone should be able to at least put up a close fight against Itachi, adding in any Akatsuki should really tip things in his favor. Even Zetsu or Hidan could give Sasuke the opening he needs to win. Same thing with Nagato/Obito, but with Nagato/Obito it's even more unlikely.

Than of course combos of the big guns like Nagato + Sasuke or Obito + Orochi, etc... shouldn't even really need to be discussed.


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## ZE (Feb 10, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Koto is far too broken, I'm not even joking





Jυstin said:


> This thread showed me first-hand how broken Kotoamatsukami is, by placing it on the side of the character I'm routing for. It turns an "Itachi solo against Character A and Character B" into "Itachi and Character A/B against solo Character A/B".


Remind me again why Danzou wasn't god level?



Jυstin said:


> Kotoamatsukami's control over the victim is stronger than Edo Tensei's control over the summon.



Obito's chakra rods also overrode Kabuto's control of the edo Jinchuurikis and I don't see anyone here saying "once you get hit with it, it's over."


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## Jυstin (Feb 10, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> Itachi's Koto was programmed to be used on Itachi's eyes (And i'm pretty sure it needs eye contact since it's a visual genjutsu). I think OP should specify if KA would do something more than that, because right now, i don't know how it will help other than putting Itachi or an EMS Sasuke in genjutsu.



Well we know how it works. Itachi determines what the trigger is. We don't know how he does it, but he did it with Amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami, with different triggers, and then Itachi can determine what order the Genjutsu gives the victim, such as "Defend Itachi". Pretty much, this technique with Itachi's skill with the MS is game over for any pair he'd be up against 

But without Kotoamatsukami, I'm inclined to agree with what Nikushimi. He possesses the ability to one-shot any one opponent and then take on the other one 1v1, but it depends on his opponents, how well equipped they are to handle his Jutsu, because he possesses quite a few hard-to-avoid one-shots.


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## Lawrence777 (Feb 10, 2013)

Kisame's probably Itachi's worst enemy. He has full knowledge and I'm not sure if yata mirror works on water dome. Not even sure if Amaterasu works in waterdome. And he has the knowledge to avoid eye contact.

Itachi should be able to beat any combination of Deidara/Sasori/Kakuzu though. 

They have barely any knowledge on his deadlier abilities(Tsukiyomi/Amaterasu/Susanoo). Said abilities don't give second chances, and Itachi can proceed to 1on1 the other after using it.

Itachi can shoot down Deidara even if he goes airborne with Amaterasu or crow genjutsu. He can probably implant Amaterasu into a crow and send it after Deidara also.

Anyone who's grounded wouldn't be able to handle both Amaterasu and Tsukiyomi, and he still has Susano to rely on if necessary.


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 10, 2013)

> It was already later stated why Itachi was in Konoha. He wasn't like, "Oh yeah. I totally want to capture Naruto-kun and kill all of you. I'll do it later when my chakra's replenished, kay?". He'd passed on opportunities to kill and flat out stated he didn't wish to kill any of them, even before we're flat out told he wasn't there to fight. Your argument is supported on the assertion that the thing that kept Itachi from continuing the fight was his fatigue, which is false when we're told that he didn't go to Konoha to fight in the first place.


He told Kisame more than once that they were seeking Naruto. He said he didn't wish to "start a war." At no point did he refuse killing them, in reality, at one point he commanded Kisame to flat out execute Kakashi before Gai arrived with a dynamic entry telling them reinforcements were on their way. They evaded Jiraiya later on mainly because Itachi only had a single MS technique in him after putting Sasuke into Genjutsu, such was obvious when he said he needed to rest while panting on the run. 



> Itachi's Tsukuyomi on little Sasuke put him out for quite a while as well. The only other time it's used is on Sasuke in part 2, which Itachi allowed him to break out of, so he didn't suffer its full effects.


He could have avoided death immediately by putting him in a mental drain with his advanced version, the Genjutsu Itachi was using was a normal Tsukuyomi which only immobilizes the opponent, such was clear when Sasuke wasn't tortured and let loose. 



> The difference isn't only his heart won't stop when he's healthy. We've seen him fire off over 4 MS Jutsu, among other Jutsu in an all-out fight, while sick. There's no reason to believe he couldn't do this when his body is in a _better_ condition. That would be retarded even by animal reasoning's standards. Healthy Itachi didn't clutch his head in pain when he used MS Jutsu. MS isn't even what killed Itachi. His disease was, confirmed when Obito, speaking of Itachi's virus, shows us a panel referring to the heart attack he had moments before his death, because it was caused by his disease. He was already in such a bad physical condition that he'd taken medicine to prolong his life, because otherwise he would have been dead before his fight even started. That's how far Itachi was already in the grave, and he still managed all those techniques.


Both Sasuke and Itachi held their head in pain after the use of MS techniques. Kakashi often does the same, until recent chapters where he has mastered it. During the fight against Sasuke after using Amy Itachi held his head in severe pain to the point he couldn't defend himself from a surprising dragon katon coming his way. Sasuke also held his eye in severe pain after putting Bee in Genjutsu, where he could not react to his counter-blitz. 



> The time period between use of Kotoamatsukami has nothing to do with chakra consumption. If it did, then the time would vary since not everyone has the same chakra, but it's 10 years regardless who uses it, unless they possess Senju DNA. Consider that if a ninja uses up almost all their chakra, they need only rest a few days to replenish it completely. Kotoamatsukami requires 10 *years* to be able to use it again. This would mean that the user would have no chakra for several years, if this were the case. In fact, that amount of time is so steep compared to just a couple days of recovering, that it would kill *anyone* over a couple dozen times over. *NO ONE* would be able to use Kotoamatsukami without dying, or use a technique that required that much chakra at all, if it drained their chakra so much that they couldn't use it for 10 years. Certainly a crow wouldn't be able to use it.


Senju DNA is the very definition of regeneration and stamina. When we look at those who possess Senju genes (Hashirama, Nagato, Tsunade, Naruto) we understand these individuals to have massively large chakra pools and amazing chakra/bodily stamina. The fact Danzo was able to use a technique once a day that anyone else could only use once a decade just because he had Hashirama's DNA in his arm makes me believe the technique is based entirely on one's physical stamina and chakra capacity. 



> No. It's just the cool-down for the Jutsu itself. Even if it's more costly than Tsukuyomi, that alone isn't evidence enough to say it would kill someone like Itachi, who had no trouble using it through a mere crow. This point is getting disregarded as well.


A crow that was stored inside Naruto somehow which you have yet to explain. The reality of it is I have a completely valid claim in the fact that Itachi's weaker normal MS techniques physically damage his body and stressed him to the point of death. 



> I already explained how the Jutsu works. Like any MS Jutsu, it can be cast by the user's will, but as Itachi demonstrated with Amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami, he can give their activation triggers as well, such as upon seeing certain things, like another Sharingan, for instance. If Itachi doesn't activate it himself, he provides the instructions on what will activate it, as he's already done twice. Why are you asking how a wild bird (it's not wild, it's Itachi's) will utilize said Jutsu when it *ALREADY HAS* in the manga? It did so because Itachi told it when and how to.


Because when dealing with this simulation I'm completely dumbfounded an individual who spends time writing books in debates on a website wouldn't understand it's logical to question how a fucking bird will cast a Genjutsu that orders an individual to do something when said bird doesn't have a brain larger than a peanut and is entirely incapable of worldly reason. 



> And I did explain it. Kabuto's control was overwritten by the order given to Itachi by Kotoamatsukami. The order was to "Protect Konoha". Kotoamatsukami is a Genjutsu where the user takes control over the victim, and enforces an order on them which they have to obey. The control of this order is *even greater* than the control that Edo Tensei has over its summons, as it's able to override the orders given to the Edo Tensei summons by the summoner.


We know this to be entirely incorrect, as Kabuto's technique allows him to physically control an individual's movement and see what they're seeing. By definition it's not greater, and you didn't explain how it overrode Kabuto's control, you simply repeated what bullshit the manga gave us in "Koto is the greatest Genjutsu therefore automatically it severed Kabuto's control." Our job is to question events in the manga. 



> It seems like you're almost trying to deny something in the manga that happened... happened. It happened. No use arguing that it can't. I'm explaining how it happened. Kotoamatsukami's control over the victim is stronger than Edo Tensei's control over the summon.


When dealing with plot it's important to understand something that happened in the manga can be designed in a way that logically cannot be explained for the betterment of the story line. 

I for one am not ready to concede a crow is going to cast a Genjutsu on a human being and then give that person orders that will affect the battle as a whole. This happened in the manga ONLY because plot required it.


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## Jυstin (Feb 10, 2013)

What he told Kisame and what his true intentions were are two different things. He was there for the sole reason of reminding Danzou that he was alive, and nothing more. The databook also says that Itachi only pretends to chase Naruto, while lying to Akatsuki at every corner. Itachi passed up the opportunity to capture Naruto when he gave Naruto his crow, for the purpose of stopping Sasuke from destroying Konoha (should he try). The most recent chapter revealed that Itachi was only in Akatsuki as a spy, to keep tabs on them. Seriously, how hard does it have to be beaten into your head to get that Itachi was never after Naruto? Furthermore, Itachi passed up on the opportunity to kill Kakashi, which was both stated by his partner and Kakashi himself.

There is no such thing as Normal and Abnormal Tsukuyomi. It's just Tsukuyomi. Period. Tsukuyomi allows the user to control time and space within the illusion. He could create the illusion of watching one's clan being massacred, of being repeatedly stabbed by swords, or of having one's eyes plucked out. It's all under his control. It's the same Jutsu.

Edo Itachi and part 1 Itachi never held his head after using MS, and being an Edo Tensei does not remove such strain (Edo Deidara himself exhausted himself, as stated by Edo Hanzou, and confirmed by Edo Deidara). He only held his head when he was sick. Itachi's mastery went beyond Kakashi's.

If the technique cool down was based on stamina, one requiring a 10 year cool down would mean their chakra would be so depleted, they wouldn't be able to use the Jutsu for 10 years. Since it only takes a few days to go from critical chakra levels back to full, a technique requiring 10 years would immediately kill anyone trying to use it (and also not work), because it would require hundreds times more chakra than their body can hold. Itachi was able to use Kotoamatsukami through his crow just fine. This means, since he already did it, that he can do it.

Your claim is anything but valid. Itachi didn't show head trauma when using MS in part 1 or as an Edo, and using the MS is NOT what killed him. The heart attack caused by his disease, which would have killed him before the fight even started had he not taken medicine, is what killed him. He would not have died had he not been sick.


Oh, and I need to quote this specifically 



> Because when dealing with this simulation I'm completely dumbfounded an individual who spends time writing books in debates on a website wouldn't understand it's logical to question how a fucking bird will cast a Genjutsu that orders an individual to do something when said bird doesn't have a brain larger than a peanut and is entirely incapable of worldly reason.



Because, my... _special_... friend, the bird *already did it* in the fucking manga, genius 



> We know this to be entirely incorrect, as Kabuto's technique allows him to physically control an individual's movement and see what they're seeing. By definition it's not greater, and you didn't explain how it overrode such.



You're just flat out wrong, because the manga already stated that the order given to Itachi by Kotoamatsukami overrode the orders given by Kabuto by Edo Tensei. The manga fucking stated in plain text that the orders of Kotoamatsukami overpowered and overrode the orders given by the Edo Tensei. Period. I don't need to explain anything. The manga already did.



> When dealing with plot it's important to understand something that happened in the manga can be designed in a way that logically cannot be explained for the betterment of the story line.
> 
> I for one am not ready to concede a crow is going to cast a Genjutsu on a human being and then give that person orders that will affect the battle as a whole.



Well that's too bad, because apparently Itachi's crow can cast his Genjutsu with the orders he gives it, because that's exactly what he did.

That's like me denying that Sasuke can use Chidori because creating lightning in one's hand is physically impossible, ignoring that in the manga, he CAN cast Chidori. You not understanding how something happened doesn't change the fact that it happened.


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## LostSelf (Feb 10, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> Well we know how it works. Itachi determines what the trigger is. We don't know how he does it, but he did it with Amaterasu and Kotoamatsukami, with different triggers, and then Itachi can determine what order the Genjutsu gives the victim, such as "Defend Itachi". Pretty much, this technique with Itachi's skill with the MS is game over for any pair he'd be up against
> 
> But without Kotoamatsukami, I'm inclined to agree with what Nikushimi. He possesses the ability to one-shot any one opponent and then take on the other one 1v1, but it depends on his opponents, how well equipped they are to handle his Jutsu, because he possesses quite a few hard-to-avoid one-shots.



And there's the problem. The trigger has already been determined by that time. Unless Itachi can change the programmed order. Because the time he used it, the eye had it's order implanted, and that was to use it once the crow made eye contact with Itachi's eyes. (I suppose any match concerning Itachi would have that order in KA unless OP specifies).

Also, Mifune looked that he was not being controlled anymore once he realized he was in a more powerful KA considering Hashirama's cells powered up the jutsu.


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## Rage of Hate (Feb 11, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> And there's the problem. The trigger has already been determined by that time. Unless Itachi can change the programmed order. Because the time he used it, the eye had it's order implanted, and that was to use it once the crow made eye contact with Itachi's eyes. (I suppose any match concerning Itachi would have that order in KA unless OP specifies).
> 
> Also, Mifune looked that he was not being controlled anymore once he realized he was in a more powerful KA considering Hashirama's cells powered up the jutsu.



Hashirama's cells haven't shown to power up koto just shorten the reactivation time. and the fact that itachi has better feats then danzou. So by feats Itachi's Koto usage > Danzous usage.  

Why can't itachi change the order of Koto if he has shown he has already.


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## IchLiebe (Feb 11, 2013)

All members of the organization can beat Itachi.

Hidan and Kakuzu- Itachi wins.
Deidara and Sasori- Itachi loses
Pain- Itachi loses
Konan- Itachi loses- fire isn't strong against paper... Oil is.
Kisame- Kisame wins if he has samahada.
Zetsu- I don't think Itachi can take on 100,000 Zetsu(same shinobi just mokuton clones)


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## IchLiebe (Feb 11, 2013)

Also if Itachi doesnn't have prep or knowledge of his opponets he don't have a way to activate the jutsu(which atm is Itachi's eye) nor make an order that is worthwhile(atm protect the leaf, well Itachi is an enemy of the leaf) so Koto A is useless in this scenario has under Itachi's controll he must see his eye, and the order won't do shit except making it a free for all.


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## Jυstin (Feb 11, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> And there's the problem. The trigger has already been determined by that time. Unless Itachi can change the programmed order. Because the time he used it, the eye had it's order implanted, and that was to use it once the crow made eye contact with Itachi's eyes. (I suppose any match concerning Itachi would have that order in KA unless OP specifies).
> 
> Also, Mifune looked that he was not being controlled anymore once he realized he was in a more powerful KA considering Hashirama's cells powered up the jutsu.



If he can give it a trigger in the first place, I don't see why he can't change the trigger. He was able to give Amaterasu a different trigger to Kotoamatsukami as well. This could also be under the assumption that, since Itachi never gave it to Naruto, he never gave it such a trigger. If he knew how to set up the order and trigger, it's silly to think he couldn't reset it.

The cells only shorten the cool down time between uses. If Mifune could break free upon knowing he was in the Genjutsu, I question its power, because despite knowing he was under Kotoamatsukami, Itchi's Edo Tensei control still couldn't override it.


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## LostSelf (Feb 11, 2013)

Rage of Hate said:


> Hashirama's cells haven't shown to power up koto just shorten the reactivation time. and the fact that itachi has better feats then danzou. So by feats Itachi's Koto usage > Danzous usage.
> 
> Why can't itachi change the order of Koto if he has shown he has already.



I don't think it's safe to assume that Itachi's koto > Danzo's since their power comes from Shisui's eye and Itachi's koto has only been used in himself. I'm not implying that Itachi can't change the order of Koto. I said i'm not sure about it.



Jυstin said:


> If he can give it a trigger in the first place, I don't see why he can't change the trigger. He was able to give Amaterasu a different trigger to Kotoamatsukami as well. This could also be under the assumption that, since Itachi never gave it to Naruto, he never gave it such a trigger. If he knew how to set up the order and trigger, it's silly to think he couldn't reset it.



I'm not sure if i got this right. Anyway, i'll concede this point. 



> The cells only shorten the cool down time between uses. If Mifune could break free upon knowing he was in the Genjutsu, I question its power, because despite knowing he was under Kotoamatsukami, Itchi's Edo Tensei control still couldn't override it.



This is the weird part. Yes, he looked to be out of the genjutsu's control once he realized Danzo used it on him.  Probably Danzo stopped using it, who knows.

Itachi, on the other hand, cancelled Edo tensei's control, so it could not override if the talisman was not working anymore (otherwise Kabuto would've just controlled him again). And Itachi had no intention on stopping the genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Feb 11, 2013)

Sasori & Deidara


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 11, 2013)

> What he told Kisame and what his true intentions were are two different things. He was there for the sole reason of reminding Danzou that he was alive, and nothing more. The databook also says that Itachi only pretends to chase Naruto, while lying to Akatsuki at every corner. Itachi passed up the opportunity to capture Naruto when he gave Naruto his crow, for the purpose of stopping Sasuke from destroying Konoha (should he try). The most recent chapter revealed that Itachi was only in Akatsuki as a spy, to keep tabs on them. Seriously, how hard does it have to be beaten into your head to get that Itachi was never after Naruto? Furthermore, Itachi passed up on the opportunity to kill Kakashi, which was both stated by his partner and Kakashi himself.


Itachi was a spy, though he did have intent to kill Kakashi and company, such was obvious when he used his most powerful Genjutsu on him after nearly obliterating him with an exploding clone, then ordered Kisame to execute him while he was immobile and shitfaced post-MS with no knowledge Gai was in the vicinity. 



> There is no such thing as Normal and Abnormal Tsukuyomi. It's just Tsukuyomi. Period. Tsukuyomi allows the user to control time and space within the illusion. He could create the illusion of watching one's clan being massacred, of being repeatedly stabbed by swords, or of having one's eyes plucked out. It's all under his control. It's the same Jutsu.


It's not the same Jutsu at all. Such was obvious when Danzo commented in how large a power gap between Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Sasuke's, where Sasuke could not control the illusion of time. A similar comparison would be Sasuke's Katons versus Madara's, the same Jutsus and yet entirely different power scales. 



> Edo Itachi and part 1 Itachi never held his head after using MS, and being an Edo Tensei does not remove such strain (Edo Deidara himself exhausted himself, as stated by Edo Hanzou, and confirmed by Edo Deidara). He only held his head when he was sick. Itachi's mastery went beyond Kakashi's.


Edo Itachi was a walking spirit with an unlimited regeneration capacity as well as chakra recovery, though his eye still bled. Part 1 Itachi showed clear levels of fatigue after the use of Tsukuyomi, not physical pain, though that isn't relevant as Kishimoto simply chose not to draw him holding his head. A healthy Sasuke's eye bled during activation of any MS tech, just as an unhealthy Itachi did, and there was a clear window of fatigue and/or physical pain directly afterward. 

Narutowiki agrees:
Use of the Mangekyō Sharingan put a great strain on Itachi's body and would quickly deplete his chakra reserves to the point that after using it three times in a day, he deactivated his eyes to their normal state.[17] A clone containing 30% of his chakra couldn't use it once. By the time he battled Sasuke, his sight had been reduced to a large blur, yet having resolved himself to dying at the hands of his brother, pushed past this limitation and used his Mangekyō Sharingan more than three times as well as other techniques. After Itachi's death, Sasuke, at first, refused to take his eyes despite his own deteriorating eye-sight, but eventually did so he could face Naruto at his best, obtaining an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan in the process.



> If the technique cool down was based on stamina, one requiring a 10 year cool down would mean their chakra would be so depleted, they wouldn't be able to use the Jutsu for 10 years. Since it only takes a few days to go from critical chakra levels back to full, a technique requiring 10 years would immediately kill anyone trying to use it (and also not work), because it would require hundreds times more chakra than their body can hold. Itachi was able to use Kotoamatsukami through his crow just fine. This means, since he already did it, that he can do it.


You severely underrate Senju DNA that basically derived directly from the creator of Ninjutsu himself. There are two direct descendants, Uchiha and Senju. Senju possess an astronomical amount of stamina and bodily resistance (Naruto resisting KN4's chakra density, Nagato resisting Rinnegan abuse, Tsunade resisting Bykugo, *Hashirama's cells resisting 10-year koto cool down*) while the Uchiha possess special ocular powers (Sharingan, MS, Izanagi). 

You do realize this is a manga site where users *DEBATE* and *ANALYZE* happenings in the manga? Plot is a real thing, someone who assumes a wild animal will cast an advanced Genjutsu that gives specific orders to the victim because it already happened in the manga doesn't belong in the section. 



> Your claim is anything but valid. Itachi didn't show head trauma when using MS in part 1 or as an Edo, and using the MS is NOT what killed him. The heart attack caused by his disease, which would have killed him before the fight even started had he not taken medicine, is what killed him. He would not have died had he not been sick.


Edo is irrelevant, he's a walking spirit with advanced regeneration and 0 chakra loss. A Jutsu that physically damages the body and grossly affects the chakra pool instantly would not affect an Edo. Part 1 Itachi was healthy, and in all seriousness Kishimoto didn't really know what he was going to do with the MS in the future. There isn't even a glimpse of what an MS looks like until shippuden, as every time Itachi used it the panel cut off directly to the victim. What we do know is an unhealthy Itachi clearly held his head in severe pain after using both Amy and Susano, coughed profusely and couldn't defend himself from incoming attacks directly afterward. 




> Oh, and I need to quote this specifically


What is this? Spite quoting with a laughing smiley? Should I be offended? 



> Because, my... _special_... friend, the bird *already did it* in the fucking manga, genius


"Well, because it happened already we don't need to question it." The philosophy of a child. 



> You're just flat out wrong, because the manga already stated that the order given to Itachi by Kotoamatsukami overrode the orders given by Kabuto by Edo Tensei. The manga fucking stated in plain text that the orders of Kotoamatsukami overpowered and overrode the orders given by the Edo Tensei. Period. I don't need to explain anything. The manga already did.


No need to get angry, all you did here was restate the same thing you did 3 posts ago. You've yet to explain *HOW* it overpowered it.



> Well that's too bad, because apparently Itachi's crow can cast his Genjutsu with the orders he gives it, because that's exactly what he did.


The crow didn't cast Genjutsu at all, Itachi's bobby-trapped Koto was casted onto him. In short, Plot ensured Itachi was saved, and you can't explain how the crow was physically inside Naruto's throat or how the Genjutsu was pre-set as a bobby trap. 



> That's like me denying that Sasuke can use Chidori because creating lightning in one's hand is physically impossible, ignoring that in the manga, he CAN cast Chidori. You not understanding how something happened doesn't change the fact that it happened.


I wouldn't question that, I would question it if a crow suddenly used Chidori. You're comparing a human being using Ninjutsu to a crow using the most powerful Genjutsu on panel consciously giving harming orders to the victim.


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## Jυstin (Feb 11, 2013)

ZE said:
			
		

> Obito's chakra rods also overrode Kabuto's control of the edo Jinchuurikis and I don't see anyone here saying "once you get hit with it, it's over."



For one thing, those chakra rods are placed all over in the body they control. One is not enough to assume control over an individual (but we've seen it's enough to seriously fuck with one's chakra). Also, I believe Kabuto knew about what Obito was doing, and allowed it? I don't fully remember. It's definitely not the same as what Kotoamatsukami's displayed, and we're going by the one Itachi's shown, not the seemingly weak excuse for it that Danzou used. The one used on Itachi had Kabuto gobsmacked at losing his control over Itachi. Apparently overriding the control of Edo Tensei is kind of a big deal.



TheIronMan said:


> I'm not sure if i got this right. Anyway, i'll concede this point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Danzou might have cancelled it once he was called out on it. I'm not entirely sure myself. I'll admit this one's a bit confusing.



> Itachi was a spy, though he did have intent to kill Kakashi and company, such was obvious when he used his most powerful Genjutsu on him after nearly obliterating him with an exploding clone, then ordered Kisame to execute him while he was immobile and shitfaced post-MS with no knowledge Gai was in the vicinity.



On the contrary. Itachi did that to _prevent_ the bloodshed. He called Kisame back and said he could finish the fight faster. He ended the fight just by taking Kakashi down, without killing him. Kakashi even acknowledged that Itachi could easily have killed him, but questioned why he didn't. When Kisame was kicked by Gai, he didn't seem to care, like he wasn't surprised. This particular part has been vague, but the idea set up, as stated by Kakashi, Kisame, Asuma, and Kurenai, is that Itachi passed up the opportunity to kill him when it was golden.



> It's not the same Jutsu at all. Such was obvious when Danzo commented in how large a power gap between Itachi's Tsukuyomi and Sasuke's, where Sasuke could not control the illusion of time. A similar comparison would be Sasuke's Katons versus Madara's, the same Jutsus and yet entirely different power scales.



No no no. Danzou was comparing the power of Itachi's Tsukuyomi to Sasuke's *normal* Genjutsu. Even Obito commented on it that Sasuke, even though he used a *normal* (actually his words were "weak Genjutsu") Genjutsu, still used it expertly. It was not Tsukuyomi. Unlike Tsukuyomi, which takes the victim to an illusionary world where the user controls time and space, where only 1 second passes in reality, Sasuke just used a normal Genjutsu to alter Danzou's perception of time *in reality* (he didn't take him into an illusionary world).

Unlike Tsukuyomi, time passed by normally, but Sasuke just made it look like one of Danzou's Sharingan was still open, when it wasn't. Danzou was just comparing Genjutsu, not the exact same technique, though.  In the scan I posted, Obito just said "Sasuke cast *a Genjutsu* on you.". It was not referred to as Tsukuyomi (or even given a name at all, which it would if it were, in fact, Tsukuyomi).



> Edo Itachi was a walking spirit with an unlimited regeneration capacity as well as chakra recovery, though his eye still bled. Part 1 Itachi showed clear levels of fatigue after the use of Tsukuyomi, not physical pain, though that isn't relevant as Kishimoto simply chose not to draw him holding his head. A healthy Sasuke's eye bled during activation of any MS tech, just as an unhealthy Itachi did, and there was a clear window of fatigue and/or physical pain directly afterward.
> 
> Narutowiki agrees:
> Use of the Mangekyō Sharingan put a great strain on Itachi's body and would quickly deplete his chakra reserves to the point that after using it three times in a day, he deactivated his eyes to their normal state.[17] A clone containing 30% of his chakra couldn't use it once. By the time he battled Sasuke, his sight had been reduced to a large blur, yet having resolved himself to dying at the hands of his brother, pushed past this limitation and used his Mangekyō Sharingan more than three times as well as other techniques. After Itachi's death, Sasuke, at first, refused to take his eyes despite his own deteriorating eye-sight, but eventually did so he could face Naruto at his best, obtaining an Eternal Mangekyō Sharingan in the process.



This is why I don't quote Narutowiki even to prove my own points. It's like wikipedia. It's as official as a bathroom stall wall.

The wiki ignores that Itachi has used MS *OVER FOUR TIMES* in a single fight before, which would add up to over 120% if they took 30% or more each. And this is SICK Itachi, who used more than just MS. Those restrictions placed on him from his showings in part 1 and his Shouten do not line up with his fight with Ssauke's performance, at all.


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## Jυstin (Feb 11, 2013)

> You severely underrate Senju DNA that basically derived directly from the creator of Ninjutsu himself. There are two direct descendants, Uchiha and Senju. Senju possess an astronomical amount of stamina and bodily resistance (Naruto resisting KN4's chakra density, Nagato resisting Rinnegan abuse, Tsunade resisting Bykugo, Hashirama's cells resisting 10-year koto cool down) while the Uchiha possess special ocular powers (Sharingan, MS, Izanagi).
> 
> You do realize this is a manga site where users DEBATE and ANALYZE happenings in the manga?



In the manga, Itachi states that it merely takes 10 years the _THE EYE *to reactivate*_, not for the chakra to use the technique to replenish. Shisui was going to use it to settle the Uchiha affair, and he does not possess the Senju DNA. It can obviously be used by non-Senju, but its reactivation time is much longer. The reason Itachi stated to have not used it on Sasuke himself was that he wanted to die fighting Sasuke, because there were things he wanted to accomplish with his death. He didn't contradict the notion that he could have used it on Sasuke himself, had he wanted.

You're a rookie compared to me. Here in the Battledome, we use manga canon and feats to prove our points. If a character has been shown doing something, they can do it. If you make a bold claim that hasn't been shown or outright stated in the mnaga, you'd better damn well back it up with the manga. Not your supposition. You're trying to use real world logic to apply to a manga where frogs can talk, people can create lightning in their hands, and people can summon black fire with their eyes. That's not going to work. According to Naruto logic, a crow housing a MS eye is capable of casting the MS Jutsu as long as the eye is given a trigger. Why do I say this can happen? Because it's been done in the manga. I'm using the manga canon to prove my point, because it's already happened.

Obviously a crow implanted with Shisui's eye _can_ cast Kotoamatsukami on a target who trips a preset trigger, because that's exactly what it did. I'm not assuming it can do something that it hasn't done. I'm stating something it's *already* done in the plot of the manga you _claim_ to read. You'd have to prove to me that it didn't happen before you can start spouting your mouth about how it can't happen.



> Plot is a real thing, someone who assumes a wild animal will cast an advanced Genjutsu that gives specific orders to the victim because it already happened in the manga doesn't belong in the section.



That was not a wild crow, by the way. It was Itachi's. It came from him, and it perched on his shoulder. Considering how Itachi's Karasu Bunshens work, it was probably made of chakra. Either way, it was Itachi's crow. To be technical, the *crow* did not cast the Jutsu. The eye reacted on its own, because Itachi preset a trigger *IN THE MS EYE* to cast a specific order *that ITACHI gave the eye*.

It's the same way he did it to Ssauke when he preset the Amaterasu trap in his left eye to act *on its own*. Sasuke did not use the Amaterasu on Obito. He didn't even know what had happened. *The eye reacted on its own* to the trigger Itachi placed in it. Now you asked me how he can do this? He did all this just by touching Sasuke's forehead. It was a Fuujin Jutsu. It's the same thing he did to the MS eye in the crow.

By Battledome debating standards, you don't belong here. I'm disregarding any nonsense you bring up about the crow's implanted eye not being able to cast Kotoamatsukami, because we've already seen that it can.



> Edo is irrelevant, he's a walking spirit with advanced regeneration and 0 chakra loss. A Jutsu that physically damages the body and grossly affects the chakra pool instantly would not affect an Edo. Part 1 Itachi was healthy, and in all seriousness Kishimoto didn't really know what he was going to do with the MS in the future. There isn't even a glimpse of what an MS looks like until shippuden, as every time Itachi used it the panel cut off directly to the victim. What we do know is an unhealthy Itachi clearly held his head in severe pain after using both Amy and Susano, coughed profusely and couldn't defend himself from incoming attacks directly afterward.



Deidara says otherwise. Also, Itachi showed his MS pattern in the manga, during Sasuke's flashback in part 1, so you're wrong there as well. It still doesn't change the fact that it was indisputably MS that he used in part 1. It was called Mangekyou Sharingan back then and labeled as another level of Sharingan altogether. "Kishi didn't know what he was doing" isn't a strong argument, and I don't even think it's true. Kishi even established in part 1 that there was another MS user, already hinting to us of Obito's existence and that he had MS as well.

You go and cite unhealthy Itachi clutching his head again. I'll accept your concession that part 1 Itachi did no such thing, therefore it was not an MS thing (Sasuke was inexperienced at the time), but due to his disease, as that's the only thing that changed. He even used it TWICE in Sasuke's flashback, after exterminating his clan, without showing signs of fatigue at all.



> "Well, because it happened already we don't need to question it." The philosophy of a child.



We can question it all we want. Nothing wrong with wanting to know _how_ it happened (which I explained more clearly above). What you're trying to do is *deny* that it can happen, despite the fact that it *already did happen*. This is akin to a child plugging their fingers in their ears and chanting "Lalallalalalalala", or covering their eyes and going, "If I can't see it, it can't see me.".



> No need to get angry, all you did here was restate the same thing you did 3 posts ago. You've yet to explain HOW it overpowered it.



Yes I did. The manga even explains it, though an explanation on how it happened is not needed, as we only need to know that Kotoamatsukami overpowered it.

I'll try to explain it *ONE MORE TIME*.

*1.* Kabuto uses talismans to assume control over the zombies he summons with Edo Tensei. Ok? Good. Stick with me.
*2.* Kotoamatsukami uses an order given by the caster to assume control over the victims who are caught in the Genjutsu, and are forced to obey that order.
*3.* The Genjutsu is so powerful, that the control assumed over the victim by Kotoamatsukami is more powerful than the control of the talisman used on the Edo Tensei summon.
*4.* Since Kotoamatsukami is more powerful than the talismans used to control the Edo Tensei, layering the Genjutsu order over the talisman's orders overrides the talisman, forcing the Edo Tensei to obey the new orders given to them by Kotoamatsukami, rather than the old orders given by the summoner through the talisman.

That is how it works. No need to question if it can be done or not, since according to the manga, it can be done, otherwise it would not have happened. If something can't be done, then we won't see it being done, because it can't be done. Since we saw that it was done, the only logical solution is... that it can be done. Otherwise, it wouldn't have been done.

It feels like I'm talking to a toddler at this point...



> The crow didn't cast Genjutsu at all, Itachi's bobby-trapped Koto was casted onto him. In short, Plot ensured Itachi was saved, and you can't explain how the crow was physically inside Naruto's throat or how the Genjutsu was pre-set as a bobby trap.



Oh, I'm sorry, Kishimoto. I didn't know you were here. It has to be you, Kishimoto, because no one but you can decide what is or isn't possible in your manga simply by their own reasoning. Only you could do that, Kishimoto, because what you draw and establish in your manga is law in your manga, and no one has the authority to question its legitimacy but you, the author 

Stop trying to apply real-world logic to Naruto. In Naruto, crows can apparently be shoved down people's throats and can have MS-implanted eyes that cast MS Jutsu on specific targets. Why? Because that's exactly what happened. If it could not happen, it would not happen. The crow did not cast the Jutsu. The eye itself did. Itachi programmed it to do so. How? Well that doesn't matter. The point is that Itachi can do it, since he's already done it twice. The first time, he programmed Sasuke's left Sharingan to cast Amaterasu, without Sasuke knowing, just by touching Sasuke's forehead right as he died. 

And why wouldn't you question how a human can use Chidori? By the real life standards you're applying to the crow, humans can't use Chidori any more than crows can use it.

You can question how Itachi shoves crows down people's throats or how he can pre-program Sharingan to use MS Jutsu all you want, it still doesn't change the fact that he's capable of doing it and has done it before. Get over it.


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## ZE (Feb 12, 2013)

Jυstin said:


> For one thing, those chakra rods are placed all over in the body they control. One is not enough to assume control over an individual



Actually, the jinchuurikis only had one chakra rod each. Apparently, one stab is all it takes. 

And why would Kabuto let Obito take control of his edos when moments before he stressed how important it was for him to abduct Naruto and Bee before obito?


There's an undisputed fact here; both Kotoamatsukami and the chakra rods have the same hype of overriding edo tensei. If one is a sure win due to that, so is the other. Pretty simple. Arguing for one in detriment of the other makes no sense.


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## Rain (Feb 12, 2013)

Pain and Rinnegan Obito w/ paths, albeit with extreme difficulty.

/bored


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## Jυstin (Feb 12, 2013)

ZE said:


> Actually, the jinchuurikis only had one chakra rod each. Apparently, one stab is all it takes.
> 
> And why would Kabuto let Obito take control of his edos when moments before he stressed how important it was for him to abduct Naruto and Bee before obito?
> 
> ...



I wonder why Nagato needed to use several, then. Possibly, it's the difference between one with Uchiha and Senju DNA using them, and one with neither. We've seen it fuck with the chakra of those who have been stuck with them, though.

The difference is whether or not the chakra rods _forcibly_ overrode the control or not. I can't remember, was Kabuto aware of Obito using them for his Rikkudo technique? If so, did he display any kind of objection to the point of fighting against Obito's control? Were those 6 given Kabuto's talismans, or did Kabuto leave it up to Obito to use them as he pleased? These are critical factors we _need_ to know. I would imagine hostilities would arise if Kabuto refused letting Obito use them, but I can't remember or not.

Hell it's possible Obito could control people by sticking them once (he did manage to control Goku, the 4-Tailed beast, against his will with just that 1 rod). If he, unlike Nagato, needs only one rod, and assuming it did fight Edo Tensei's control, then by the same logic, it probably could. We know Kotoamatsukami is capable of that level of control. Denying it would get nowhere.

I should also point out that it's a fallacy to use both Obito's chakra rods and Kotoamatsukami overpowering the control of Edo Tensei to say they are both equal in power. All it tells us about them is that they are both strong enough to overpower Edo Tensei's control, but it says nothing about the two in relation to each other. Both a 3 ton boulder and a 50 lb T.V. could crush an empty can of soda, but it doesn't make them comparable in power.

Another point I should make is that Kotoamatsukami was apparently strong enough to be considered for use in controlling Sasuke and in stopping the Uchiha coup (or settling things).


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## Alita (Feb 12, 2013)

If it's sick itachi he could MAYBE beat sasori and deidara though I doubt it.


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