# SM Naruto vs. V1 Ei



## ATastyMuffin (May 24, 2015)

*Restrictions:* Jutsu for Naruto, 'V2' Shunshin for Ei

Assume Naruto has two clones waiting in another location with charged Sage chakra. This thread is to test which fighter is superior in close-quarters overall, barring things such as time limits for Naruto's mode.


----------



## Veracity (May 24, 2015)

Naruto would dick . His reactions are superior to KCM naruto( reacts to V2 shunshin)

So he prolly just catches ays fist and snaps his arm, or liger bombs him lol.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 24, 2015)

Naruto doesn't have jutsu ? 
A no difs.


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Raikage should win. he catches Naruto and laiga bomb


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 24, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto doesn't have jutsu ?
> A no difs.



I think fifteen minutes is enough for SM Naruto to incapacitate him. 

Not like Ei is gonna shrug off his blows either. And Liger Bomb wouldn't do much to Naruto given SM Jiraiya's feat of tanking the yak.


----------



## Mercurial (May 24, 2015)

SM Naruto stomps his ass


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 24, 2015)

Generally I favor Ei in matches with Pain Arc SM Naruto.  Ei can't blitz his pants off, because of SM boost and SM sensing, and Naruto's mastery of frog fu gave him taijutsu mastery on a level that he can avoid being totally overwhelmed by Ei's moves and power.  The durability and strength increase from Sage Mode also allows him to take some punishment.  The Raikage would eventually overwhelm him, but he could hang in there for awhile.  That "awhile" meant Naruto could set up clone fients and tricks in order to land his futons, be it FRS, comple or incomplete, or even a futon rasengan, which are the only things in Naruto's arsenal that can bypass his shroud, and kill Ei.

That path isn't afforded to him here.  He has none of the things he needs to win, and the only thing he can do are land meaningless punches on Ei, in a taxing battle he's destined to lose.


----------



## ARGUS (May 24, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Naruto would dick . *His reactions are superior to KCM naruto*( reacts to V2 shunshin)
> 
> So he prolly just catches ays fist and snaps his arm, or liger bombs him lol.


Lol, No 




*Spoiler*: __ 















having superior chakra sensing =/= having superior reactions 
your claim is clearly debunked by these scans unless you think that blind madaras shunshin is above V2 Ay, or even close to the calibre of juubito, which it clearly isnt


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

Argus does have a point 
however kishi had Naruto say his reactions in Sm are superior to KCM which allow him to better sense his enemy and deliver a counter

however his speed is massively inferior. so that wont help him here. A is faster than his dad 

also Naruto got zero feats to assume he is more durable than rib cage susanoo. falling on his shoulder dislocated it. A karate chops his neck and breaks it and breaks any body part he hits. 

Naruto durability isn't so far above jugo that one can assume A hitting Naruto wont be crippling Naruto when V1 A hitting KCM Naruto which Naruto himself admitted was much stronger than SM had Naruto believe A could kill him if he got hit directly


----------



## KeyofMiracles (May 24, 2015)

Ay eats him for breakfast.


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 24, 2015)

if this is War arc SM Naruto then he smashes A. Better sensing and reactions then KCM means A wont hit him, and he is durable enough to withstand whatever A throws at him. SM Naruto is above MS Sasuke and his Susanoo so why wouldnt he be that durable? he also took hits from Kurama who is >>A physically


----------



## Veracity (May 24, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Lol, No
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What the fuck? Sage Naruto clearly has superior CQC reactions to KCM Naruto seeing as the statement is absolute canon: 
_meet him there_

The panels you provided don't mean anything as you seem to not understand that sage Naruto has better reactions but KCM Naruto has a much faster flicker allowing him to escape something like a V2 flicker . Sage Naruto put up against the same attack, would have enough time to put up block, but wouldn't be able to actually move out the way. Alive Madara forcing Sage Naruto to block just proves that he is faster than V1 Ay, which is logical.

And being unable to react to Juubito means what ?


----------



## Icegaze (May 24, 2015)

actually kcm did react to juubito. he was able to grab minato which allowed his escape
that's reacting right there.


----------



## Veracity (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually kcm did react to juubito. he was able to grab minato which allowed his escape
> that's reacting right there.



I guess that's true. But he didn't react to his Shunshin at all. He reacted after Juubito was already grabbing his face so it doesn't prove anything tbh .


----------



## kingcools (May 24, 2015)

SM Naruto grabs EI and throws him into the Stratosphere as he did canonically with a waaaaay heavier being. SM Naruto neg diff.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 24, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> actually kcm did react to juubito. he was able to grab minato which allowed his escape
> that's reacting right there.



 The Gedodama he used in those instances were far slower than his actual Shunshin.


----------



## Ashi (May 24, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> The Gedodama he used in those instances were far slower than his actual Shunshin.



Who Minato's?


----------



## Bonly (May 25, 2015)

So it's basically one big slug fest going on here, could go either way though I'd favor Naruto


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2015)

If Ei loses slug fests with a kid who's arm doesn't even reach up Ei's elbow, there's a problem with Ei.


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

What is Naruto supposed to do? Sasuke rammed a huge Chidori into A's chest and it barely did anything, and attacks that penetrate or cut are _far_ more effective against humans than blunt force. Naruto only has his fists to work with here, and he's not going to accomplish anything by punching the Raikage. 

On the flipside, A's got lightsaber hands, and avoiding them _consistently_ isn't going to be easy in a prolonged taijutsu exchange. A's physical strength alone is likely not something Naruto can shrug off either given that CS2 Jugo went down in two blows.

Sensing only helps bridge the gap in speed; it does nothing about Naruto's inferior durability, inferior strength, and Sage Mode time limit. He either catches an Erubo or electric chop to the neck after slipping up or runs out of senjutsu chakra and gets speedblitzed. He has no hope of actually winning without Rasenshuriken or _at least_ Rasengan.


----------



## Bonly (May 25, 2015)

What is Naruto supposed to do? Sasuke rammed a huge Chidori into A's chest and it barely did anything, and attacks that penetrate or cut are _far_ more effective against humans than blunt force. Naruto only has his fists to work with here, and he's not going to accomplish anything by punching the Raikage. 

On the flipside, A's got lightsaber hands, and avoiding them _consistently_ isn't going to be easy in a prolonged taijutsu exchange. A's physical strength alone is likely not something Naruto can shrug off either given that CS2 Jugo went down in two blows.

Naruto either catches an Elbow or electric chop to the neck after slipping up or runs out of senjutsu chakra and gets speedblitzed. He has no hope of actually winning without Rasenshuriken or _at least_ Rasengan.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 25, 2015)

Eh, I could give Sage Naruto his Rasengan,  though it'd be a less interesting fight since he'd pretty much do what three-tomoed Sasuke did, though actually succeed in severely injuring or killing him since Sage Art: Rasengan is miles ahead of Chidori in power.

Though, come on guys, Sage Naruto isn't going down without a fight. He took a full-force strike from Kurama and shrugged it off, and his raw physical strength can stop a charging boss summon in its tracks. With his skill, he can deflect most of Ei's punches; the Lighting Horizontal Cutter is one he can't, though.

Naruto isn't exactly getting blitzed either, his sensing is canonically faster than NTCM. Do you think NTCM Naruto couldn't sense V2, much less V1 Ei?


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Eh, I could give Sage Naruto his Rasengan,  though it'd be a less interesting fight since he'd pretty much do what three-tomoed Sasuke did, though actually succeed in severely injuring or killing him since Sage Art: Rasengan is miles ahead of Chidori in power.



Well, I personally don't think it would do all that much. Senjutsu & biju enhancement should at least be comparable, and KCM Naruto's Rasengan didn't outright obliterate Obito's shoulder or anything, and he's nowhere near A's level of durability.

It'd probably hurt (as in A wouldn't just stand there and compliment Naruto for actually touching him), but serious injury is a bit of an exaggeration. 



> Though, come on guys, Sage Naruto isn't going down without a fight. He took a full-force strike from Kurama and shrugged it off, and his raw physical strength can stop a charging boss summon in its tracks. With his skill, he can deflect most of Ei's punches; the Lighting Horizontal Cutter is one he can't, though?



Have you ever tried deflecting a sword with your hand? It isn't that simple, and while Naruto is strong he isn't _as_ strong as A. I think the consensus is that Naruto puts up a fight but loses out due to his fists being his only option against Chidori-tanking Raikage, not to mention there's a time limit on the jutsu that allows him to even compete at all.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky why would you make that comparison instead of making an even more direct comparison of sasukes chidori piercing through ay ? Now I know that Resengan doesn't necessarily pierce like chidori , but not only is A sage enchnaced resengan vastly superior to a regular Chidori, but sage Naruto is at very least 15 times stronger than Sasuke. If he aimed for a temple, the neck, the face, or certain areas in the spinal cord then he'd either outright kill Ay or incapacitate him. 

But the more that I look at it, Raikage would prolly win of Justu is all restricted for Naruto. But if Resengan is allowed, than Naruto wins.


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

_Maybe _if he was hit in like the eye he'd be incapacitated, but generally speaking I don't see Rasengan as a jutsu capable of seriously harming Raikage when Obito was fighting through them. 

I think the penetrative element of Chidori really mattered that much. Look at the 3rd Raikage vs. Futon fodder squad; they could cut his skin, but that didn't stop him from tanking FRS, which is Wind Rasengan on steroids. You think a Rasengan to the temple would have put _him_ down?


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 25, 2015)

If Sasuke's regular Chidori could pierce Ai's cloak and skin, then a SM rasengan will be doing way more. He took out Asura Path with 1 rasengan (or was it a punch?) then double Rasengan'd 2 more paths later on. He was strong enough to throw a boss summon and could throw Kurama and take blows from him.

SM Naruto wins 9/10


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _Maybe _if he was hit in like the eye he'd be incapacitated, but generally speaking I don't see Rasengan as a jutsu capable of seriously harming Raikage when Obito was fighting through them.
> 
> I think the penetrative element of Chidori really mattered that much. Look at the 3rd Raikage vs. Futon fodder squad; they could cut his skin, but that didn't stop him from tanking FRS, which is Wind Rasengan on steroids. You think a Rasengan to the temple would have put _him_ down?



I still don't see why you're using all this whimsical comparisons when we essentially have a direct one lmao. But so be it:

Doesnt obito have a Zetsu enhanced body, and weren't the Resengans connecting to the Zetsu portion of his body? Cause I remember Minato severely injuring him, and his resengan isn't as powerful as a Senjustu enhances resengan, nor is he even close as strong as Sage Naruto.

I swore the futton squad was only injuring the Raikage because his RnY cloak wasn't activated.

Not the Sandiame no, because he makes the Yondaime look like a warm pudding cup. But against Ay? Yes . A sage enhanced resengan slammed in his temple would wreck his shit. Especially considering Naruto tosses boss summon sized rhinos into the clouds Rocky....


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I still don't see why you're using all this whimsical comparisons when we essentially have a direct one lmao. But so be it:



Because Chidori functions fundamentally different from Rasengan, so it _isn't_ a direct comparison. 



> I swore the futton squad was only injuring the Raikage because his RnY cloak wasn't activated.



It wouldn't matter because Futon nullifies Raiton. A lightning cloak isn't going to help against the wind element. 



> Not the Sandiame no, because he makes the Yondaime look like a warm pudding cup.



Yeah, you don't have a basis for comparison, now do you?

Both Raikage have similar builds, both have survived Mabui's lightspeed technique, and both were cut by relatively minor attacks (nameless Futon techniques & Chidori respectively). 

The 3rd survived FRS, but A hasn't faced it. 



> But against Ay? Yes . A sage enhanced resengan slammed in his temple would wreck his shit.



Bullshit. 

Your entire point revolves around A being cut by Chidori, but Sandaime Raikage was cut by random wind techniques just the same. 

Yet I'm supposed to believe that a Rasengan puts A out of commission when Rasenshuriken blowing up in Sandaime's face did fuck all to him.

Even if you want to put the 3rd above the 4th because of his hype alone, they'd still be comparable. On the flip side, Rasenshuriken absolutely _dwarfs_ Rasengan in terms of power.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 25, 2015)

Rasengan, if it touches the skin, can cause internal damage.  But Ei's insides can take resist Mabui's teleport, and it's not getting through his shroud.  At the very least, it would take repeated rasengans.

Futon rasengan would mess him up proper though.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Because Chidori functions fundamentally different from Rasengan, so it _isn't_ a direct comparison.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



? Doesn't matter if chidori functions fundamentally different given the situation. A Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by sage Naruto is at the very least 30x stronger than a base chidori from sasuke. If I take a knife and stab clean through a person, and then I punch that person with 30x the same amount of force, chances are that the punch still does a lot more damage. Now add in the fact that resengan does blunt force, internal and shredding damage. Now add in the fact that it only takes a small amount of blunt force damage concentrated to the temple to kill someone..

The futton blades clearly didn't completely negate the Durabilty boost of RNY.  FRS cuts clean through solid stone and the Juubi's tails, and you're telling me that Damage + the explosion of the FRS is similar to the damage of a futton squad ? . Let's be real here . The RnY clearly boosted his durabilty despite the infinity advantage. Kakashis part 1 vortex isn't going to cancel a juubi sized katon just because of the infinity advantage.

Are you seriously comparing Ay and his father in terms of durabilty ? Ay would be turned into a dust cloud by a FRS.

Ay and his father aren't comparable at all. That claim is actually kinda surprising . I don't know why you think futton justu automatically completely negates RnY. But Ay being injured by a chidori is more than enough evidence to prove that an FRS that cleaves straight through a JUUBI tails and attacks every single cell would obliterate Ay .


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Naruto needs Kagebunshin and FRS to defeat A.
Give A V2 and then even that goes out of the window.

A > SM Naruto.


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> ? Doesn't matter if chidori functions fundamentally different given the situation. A Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by sage Naruto is at the very least 30x stronger than a base chidori from sasuke.



If we're going to debate, then start providing some sort of basis for your claims. You pulled the number "30" out of your ass...

It's clear the gap isn't that big. If that were the case, Naruto's Double Rasengan in SM would have torn Animal Path's torso off, for example. You're exaggerating. Grossly exaggerating. 



> The RnY clearly boosted his durabilty despite the infinity advantage. Kakashis part 1 vortex isn't going to cancel a juubi sized katon just because of the infinity advantage.



Raiton Chakra Mode would be negated by Futon techniques of the same level. Even if we say that his shroud would be able to stand up to barrages of wind techniques from Temari & co. (which is unsubstantiated in its own right), there's still absolutely no reason to say that his B-rank cloak was still a factor against _the most advanced Futon Jutsu in the manga._

Sandaime survived FRS with his base durability. Why do you think the alliance was attacking him with Futon in the first place? 



> Are you seriously comparing Ay and his father in terms of durabilty ? Ay would be turned into a dust cloud by a FRS.



No, he wouldn't. Fucking Domu-less Kakuzu wasn't even damaged _that_ badly.



> But Ay being injured by a chidori is more than enough evidence to prove that an FRS that cleaves straight through a JUUBI tails and attacks every single cell would obliterate Ay .



Yeah...uh, no. The Jubi tail thing was done by Biju Mode Naruto and it's a friendship-powered outlier. Seriously, the Jubi's tails were going to protect it from its own Bijudama, an attack bordering country level. You saying the 3rd would survive that? 

They are comparable, and the 3rd being cut by random futonjutsu is pretty decent evidence of that. No way Rasengan is putting either Raikage down.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If we're going to debate, then start providing some sort of basis for your claims. You pulled the number "30" out of your ass...
> 
> It's clear the gap isn't that big. If that were the case, Naruto's Double Rasengan in SM would have torn Animal Path's torso off, for example. You're exaggerating. Grossly exaggerating.
> 
> ...



I'm not exaggerating at all. I'm downplaying it. How much stronger do you think sage Naruto is to Sasuke? Do you think Sasuke can even lift a boss summon ? Let alone toss it into the clouds ? He's literally like hundreds of times stronger. I'm down playing like crazy. Now add the difference between base chidori and Sage resengan. Lol.

Well it clearly did. Unless you want to sit here and compare an FRS to a Futton squad. Or better yet, let's compare an FRS slammed into an opponent by KCM Naruto to a base chidori slammed into an opponent by a much slower and weaker Sasuke. Lol again .

Are you gonna compare an incomplete FRS to a sage or KCM enchnaced FRS? Come on that's disrespectful. But again, let's compare chidori to FRS if Ya want.

I don't understand why Bjuii Naruto in his cloak throwing an FRS of the same size and proportion to his KCM Version would yield any different results . That's about as much of an outlier as us assuming that futton completely negates raiton, given by the damage comparison between a team of fodder and The strongest futton tech in existence.


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I'm not exaggerating at all. I'm downplaying it. How much stronger do you think sage Naruto is to Sasuke? Do you think Sasuke can even lift a boss summon ? Let alone toss it into the clouds ? He's literally like hundreds of times stronger. I'm down playing like crazy. Now add the difference between base chidori and Sage resengan. Lol.



Sages are not _that_ much stronger than humans. Human Path caught J-man's fist, and Jiraiya's likely stronger than Naruto due to starting with higher base strength before any senjutsu enhancement.

"Hundreds of times stronger" is like the grossest wank I've ever seen regarding senjutsu. The 8th Gate is only a 100x modifier, and with it Gai nearly killed Jubi Madz with a kick. 



> Well it clearly did.



No, it didn't, and that's a _fact._

Does Futon beat Raiton? Check.

Is FRS on a higher level than RCM? Check.

Then Rasenshuriken nullified the cloak. It isn't debatable without just outright denying canon. 

FRS isn't a straight up cutting/piercing attack like Chidori, which is why I Rasengan would fail to do anything.



> Are you gonna compare an incomplete FRS to a sage or KCM enchnaced FRS? Come on that's disrespectful.



Your point is based on A being damaged by Chidori right?

Isn't FRS, even from Base Naruto, still far above Chidori from base Sasuke?



> I don't understand why Bjuii Naruto in his cloak throwing an FRS of the same size and proportion to his KCM Version would yield any different results.



The Jubi tail feat should just be attributed to the friendship chakra bird, which is not something Naruto could accomplish on his own.

Otherwise, we either have a BM Naruto with country-level FRS or a 3rd Raikage with the durability to no-sell said country-level FRS. 

That is no.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well, I personally don't think it would do all that much. Senjutsu & biju enhancement should at least be comparable, and KCM Naruto's Rasengan didn't outright obliterate Obito's shoulder or anything, and he's nowhere near A's level of durability.



You should probably mention that NTCM Naruto's Rasengan inly grazed Obito's shoulder, not to mention it seemed as if it lost all momentum once warped into another dimension.

I mean, if anything I'd chalk Obito's feat as pure outlier (God knows how many there are), since it seemed as if NTCM's Rasengan did no damage whatsoever when Raikiri is implied to be able to run him through with no resistance, yet we know Rasengan is at least comparable with Raikiri in damage, let alone one enhancsd with the Kyūbi's chakra.



> It'd probably hurt (as in A wouldn't just stand there and compliment Naruto for actually touching him), but serious injury is a bit of an exaggeration.



Put it this way, Kakashi's Raikiri + Lightning Dog + Akimichi assault + Deva's Shinra Tensei that knocked out a physical powerhouse like Chōza wasn't enough to put Asura Path down for good before he got off one last missile.

A single Sage Art:Rasengan kills him. The difference js _massive_.



> Have you ever tried deflecting a sword with your hand? It isn't that simple, and while Naruto is strong he isn't _as_ strong as A. I think the consensus is that Naruto puts up a fight but loses out due to his fists being his only option against Chidori-tanking Raikage, not to mention there's a time limit on the jutsu that allows him to even compete at all.



The question mark was an accident lol, I'm in agreement that Naruto can't block Lightning Horizontal Cutter.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Sages are not _that_ much stronger than humans. Human Path caught J-man's fist, and Jiraiya's likely stronger than Naruto due to starting with higher base strength before any senjutsu enhancement.
> 
> "Hundreds of times stronger" is like the grossest wank I've ever seen regarding senjutsu. The 8th Gate is only a 100x modifier, and with it Gai nearly killed Jubi Madz with a kick.
> 
> ...



Dude what the fuck? Sages are way stronger than humans. You literally took the only single outlier sage feat and applied it to your argument.

? Sage Jirayia tossed a boss summing sized yak liked a stuffed animal
? Sage Jirayia was hurling the paths around several hundred feet with his strikes 
? Sage Naruto tossed a boss summoning rhino into their clouds.
? Sage Naruto tore Asura path apart with his palm.
? novice sage Naruto was lifting giant ass boulders easily
? Sage Naruto tossed Deva pain hundreds of feet with single strikes and casually split his chakra rods in half.
? Sage Naruto can body slam 50% Kurama.
? Sage Naruto displayed he was massively stronger then KCM Naruto 
? Hell fukasakus small ass was able to toss 100m Gambunta easily .

I don't know what the leads you to believe Naruto isn't literally hundreds of times Stronger than Sasuke. What feats does Sasuke have ? Sasuke can't even lift a boss summoning, let alone toss it on the clouds. Sasukes full kick didn't even budge Killer Bee, while Sage Narutos Palm absolutely wrecked Asura path.

Why is FRS > to RnY just because it's a harder technique to learn ?? The Sandaime clearly has much more chakra than AY, and probably pumps a good deal of chakra into his cloak increasing his durabilty. We know that it increase his Durabilty as FRS was canonically > to the Futton squad yet the results were almost identical. That must mean that his RnY cloak boosted his durabilty. Even if the FRS completely negated the cloak, it probabaly had to use up part of his power to do so. Which is the clear difference between having the RnY Cloak activated and not. It's childish to compare FRS to Temari and her squad because the power difference is large. Even if you are to say that the Sandiame took the attack in base, Ay cuts through his arm like butter in base. Are you telling me that the piercing effects of FRS( right through stone and the Juubi's tail) on top of the explosive effects(which target every single atom) wouldn't absolutely destroy Ay. And yes like I said, resengan would murder Ay. Naruto can Palm Asura path to death. Are you telling me that amount of force + a resengan aimed at Ays temple wouldn't kill him? Especially considering the resengan doesn't blunt + shredding + internal damage ? Especially considering weak ass sasukes base chidori pierced cleanly into Ay? 

Which is my point. A KCM Narutos FRS + flicker slam injured the Sandaime Raikage less than Ay merely just cutting his arm off or chidori. There's a massive gap between durability.

Except Narutos FRS was at the tip of the bird lol so..... Not like we completely write off that feat or something. And the Juubis BD does no cutting Damage while FRS does shredding, cutting and explosive power.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 25, 2015)

Rasengan is overrated. Naruto hit Obito in the face with full force and it only broke the mask. Obito's nose didn't even bleed.

And before someone says the mask is made out of the most durable material the entire Narutoverse, well then you have to discard "rasengan deals internal damage" argument as well. Because rasengan can't deal internal damage if the exterior is durable enough to withstand, ie Obito's face being intact.

We know for a fact that Kakashi's raikiri kunai grazed that mask. We know for a fact that Sasuke's chidori katana bounced off A's neck without any visible damage. I'm going to saythat A is more durable than Obito's mask with the raiton shroud on.

That means rasengan won't do jack shit to him.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

annoyingl enough gotta agree with grimm
it would take way more than 1 rasengan. sadly Naruto doesn't have the speed to keep landing them 

however 1 karate chop or 1 raiga bomb puts Naruto out of commission easily


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

@Likes boss

Either you ignore what I say or make something up. I'm not going to continue to debate like that.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 25, 2015)

Sage Naruto is being a bit underrated. He still has ghost punches and can easily react to V1 Ei if Sasuke's 3-tomoe can keep up. If I'm not mistaken, he also put Asura Path out of commission in one punch, who is physically strong and quite durable.

I'd still give V1 Ei the victory, but it wouldn't come without high difficulty.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

King Itachi said:


> Sage Naruto is being a bit underrated. He still has ghost punches and can easily react to V1 Ei if Sasuke's 3-tomoe can keep up. If I'm not mistaken, he also put Asura Path out of commission in one punch, who is physically strong and quite durable.
> 
> I'd still give V1 Ei the victory, but it wouldn't come without high difficulty.



he rasengan'd asura 

btw chouji partial transformation put asura out of commission for abit as well. so that's really not impressive 

A could do the same with 1 punch. 

while 1 can argue A can tank Naruto attacks. I really haven't seen anyone claim Naruto doesn't get broken by any of A attacks 

this is the guy who dislocated his shoulder by falling on it. and has zero feats to suggest he is remotely as durable as rib cage susanoo

A grabs him and drops him. the end


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (May 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> he rasengan'd asura
> 
> btw chouji partial transformation put asura out of commission for abit as well. so that's really not impressive
> 
> ...



Fair enough. It has been quite some time.
Naruto won't get very far without Ninjutsu, then.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Wait this thread has SM Naruto restricted 


why? even with FRS Naruto needs to be able to land it and that's unlikely. A is just a bad match up against Naruto


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 25, 2015)

SM Naruto took hits from Kurama just fine. A wont be taking him down easily at all


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

OneSimpleAnime said:


> SM Naruto took hits from Kurama just fine. A wont be taking him down easily at all



scans please
what hits?

Naruto durability <<rib cage susanoo
A breaks him


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> @Likes boss
> 
> Either you ignore what I say or make something up. I'm not going to continue to debate like that.



How the hell did I ignore what you said? I definitely proved that via feats , Sage Naruto is 100 times stronger than Sasuke. Check.

Then I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that FRS completely negated the his cloak. We still have to compare the Sandaime and Yondaimes base durabilty. Ay is easily cut with his raiton arm while Sandaime isn't badly damaged by an FRS slammed into his body. You do the math on who's more durable. You also seem to forget that it takes a lot of futton power to negate the RnY cloak( same logic behind a Suiton team negating Madara's Katon) so any way you slice it , the Raikage's RnY still enhanced his durabilty. 

You said that the Juubi rail feat can't he given Naruto because it was a " teamwork " thing even though Narutos FRS was at the tip.

You actually said that Sasuke isn't that much weaker than Sage Naruto even though he can launch a boss summon thousands of feet into the air ? 

You sat here and said that The Sandaime and Yondaime have comparable even though Ay is cut cleanly with A simple raiton enhanced chop and a chidori yet the Sandaime takes less damage from a complete FRS? And now you make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about after you made those bold statements? If anything I should be done with this debate.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> How the hell did I ignore what you said? I definitely proved that via feats , Sage Naruto is 100 times stronger than Sasuke. Check.
> 
> Then I actually gave you the benefit of the doubt and assumed that FRS completely negated the his cloak. We still have to compare the Sandaime and Yondaimes base durabilty. Ay is easily cut with his raiton arm while Sandaime isn't badly damaged by an FRS slammed into his body. You do the math on who's more durable. You also seem to forget that it takes a lot of futton power to negate the RnY cloak( same logic behind a Suiton team negating Madara's Katon) so any way you slice it , the Raikage's RnY still enhanced his durabilty.
> 
> ...



the only thing going for sandaime in having more durability than his son is he faced FRS. A hasn't

base sandaime got damaged by temari futon. which would be a lot less sharp than A using ration to cut his arm off. 

while SM rasengan is stronger than A rasengan seeing the damage it did to the likes of animal path there is no reason at all to think that would damage A so easily that it wouldn't take more than a few

sadly A only need hit SM Naruto once. 

considering KCM Naruto who is far superior to SM Naruto. BY Naruto own admission felt A could kill him if he landed a direct hit


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> the only thing going for sandaime in having more durability than his son is he faced FRS. A hasn't
> 
> base sandaime got damaged by temari futon. which would be a lot less sharp than A using ration to cut his arm off.
> 
> ...



Why did you quote me to debate Naruto Vs Ay, as If that was me and Rockys Initial argument . It wasn't so idk why you even quoted this.

Either Temaris futton are >>>>>>>> to chidori or the Sandaime's RnY increased his durabilty when eating that FRS. Pick one.

I already proved why a Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by Sage Naruto would kill Ay. So idk what you are arguing about.


----------



## Rocky (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> How the hell did I ignore what you said? I definitely proved that via feats , Sage Naruto is 100 times stronger than Sasuke. Check.



Eighth Gate Gai is 100x stronger than base Gai. Sage Naruto is not 100x stronger than his base self (or Sasuke). _Not even close._



> We still have to compare the Sandaime and Yondaimes base durabilty. Ay is easily cut with his raiton arm while Sandaime isn't badly damaged by an FRS slammed into his body.



A's chop took part of the Hachibi's head off, so it isn't like they're weak or anything. The futon that cut Sandaime must be greater than Rasenshuriken in direct cutting power, just like Chidori/Raigyaku Suihei are.

That could be because Rasenshuriken true might comes from the explosion of microscopic blades, _not_ its cutting power before it detonates.



> You also seem to forget that it takes a lot of futton power to negate the RnY cloak( same logic behind a Suiton team negating Madara's Katon) so any way you slice it , the Raikage's RnY still enhanced his durabilty.



So your argument is:

"Because fodder needed to team up to stop Madara's gigantic Katon, Sandaime's think lightning armor cannot t be negated by FRS alone."

Gotcha. 



> You said that the Juubi rail feat can't he given Naruto because it was a " teamwork " thing even though Narutos FRS was at the tip.



You're missing the point, but whatever.

Since that was BM Naruto, all I have to say is "prove KCM Naruto's Rasenshuriken is on that level," which you can't do because it doesn't have that outlandish feat.



> You sat here and said that The Sandaime and Yondaime have comparable even though Ay is cut cleanly with A simple raiton enhanced chop and a chidori yet the Sandaime takes less damage from a complete FRS? And now you make it seem like I don't know what I'm talking about after you made those bold statements? If anything I should be done with this debate.



You ignore that the 3rd was cut by standard futonjutsu.

Rasenshuriken isn't a typical cutting attack. It deals internal damage just like Rasengan, which is why Kakuzu wasn't torn to pieces despite Kakashi Raikiri's going right through him.

Cutting/piercing attacks (Nukite, Chidori, run-of-the-mill Futon) are more effective than techniques like Rasengan or FRS against the Raikage, which makes sense given that he's a human and not a wall.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Why did you quote me to debate Naruto Vs Ay, as If that was me and Rockys Initial argument . It wasn't so idk why you even quoted this.
> 
> Either Temaris futton are >>>>>>>> to chidori or the Sandaime's RnY increased his durabilty when eating that FRS. Pick one.
> 
> I already proved why a Senjustu enhanced resengan swung by Sage Naruto would kill Ay. So idk what you are arguing about.



 you didn't prove anything 

u brought Naruto physical strength as if to say that actually helps when using rasengan 

if so mind proving that. 

 temari futon>>>chidori

ok buddy you win. if u can write stuff like that and not feel the need to slap urself then yh imam leave u to it


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Eighth Gate Gai is 100x stronger than base Gai. Sage Naruto is not 100x stronger than his base self (or Sasuke). _Not even close._
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yes Naruto is. The difference is that 8th gated Gai is also that much faster and reflexive. Simple question. Do you think base Naruto can lift gambunta? 

Ay was also putting a lot of force into said chop unlike the one he used to cut through his arm like butter. That's still inferior to the cutting + shredding + blunt force damage all inflicted onto the 3rd Raikage all at once. And even then , the 3rd Raikage took less damage than Ay. Even Naruto said his FRS was useless against the 3rd.

I don't see your point ? Do you think FRS only does explosive damage ? Cause you seem to erase all the other damage it does. As if the explosive damage itself isn't actually cutting every single cell. If the Raikage is barely cut up by that then how can you compare that to chidori ? 

Naw I never said it wasn't negated by FRS . It just used some of the FRS power to negate the shield. So any way you cook it, the shield still enhanced his durabilty. And that's my point.

No that's not the case because an FRS of the same size isn't any stronger or sharper . Why would it be ? When he enhances his FRS, it's either enhanced by different chakra( Senjustu), changes its properties( lava, Bjuii Dama , etc) or increases in size. The FRS he used there was the exact same size. Even if it was stronger, cutting through the JUUBI tail that easily is enough to assume that a KCM version does massive amount of cutting damage.

And my argument was that the 3rd Raikage was only cut by the base futton because his cloak wasn't activate. Even if you assume God damn FRS doesn't do any cutting damage( which is outlandish) then I'm actually gonna expect you to give me a decent argument on to why the team of futton is even comparable to something like an FRS.  You exaggerate cutting damage to the max RN.

FRS just doesn't do one type of damage. First you need to understand that. It cuts right through solid shine, shreds like a massive resengan, and then explodes targeting every single cell. But I mean if you want to compare all that damage to fucking base chidori be my guest. And stop comparing Base 50% FRS to 100% KCM FRS. Not comparable at all.

But let me just end this right now. You also seem to forget that Naruto doesn't need any piercing damage to kill someone with a temple shot. You can kill someone with minor damage if aimed towards the temple. People can survive being hit by cars , yet are killed by stone throws to the temple. And you're gonna tell me that a Sage enhanced resengan( >> to Chidori that went right into RnY enchnaced Ay) swung by Sage Naruto who can one panel Asura path( stands up after raiton assault + Choza assault + ST blast) isn't going to kill Ay if aimed at the temple? Mind you the internal damage of resengan would fuck his temple up badly without even piercing the skin. Now add in the blunt force damage and the shredding damage.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> you didn't prove anything
> 
> u brought Naruto physical strength as if to say that actually helps when using rasengan
> 
> ...



Are you serious rn ? I really hope you aren't a grown ass adult that just said the force behind a resengan doesn't matter at all....

Why would I prove that. That just proves that the RnY cloak enhances durabilty. Which has been obvious as hell this entire time.

I mean unless you think the Sandaime and Ay are close in durabilty despite the hype and feat difference.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Are you serious rn ? I really hope you aren't a grown ass adult that just said the force behind a resengan doesn't matter at all....
> 
> Why would I prove that. That just proves that the RnY cloak enhances durabilty. Which has been obvious as hell this entire time.
> 
> I mean unless you think the Sandaime and Ay are close in durabilty despite the hype and feat difference.



your argument is SM Naruto got loads of physical strength therefore his rasengan would do more damage than sasuke chidori. which is entirely silly. 

rasengan can already do damage by it just making contact. slamming it to improve the power behind it has never been stated. that's like saying chidori cant stab a person unless u running full speed. 

do tell me where kishi the author implies the force behind a rasengan matters. considering minato the original user got very normal strength. so he would invent a technique boosting by the force behind the attack yet do nothing to boost his force behind rasengan attacks. yh suuure


Also note regardless of how hard rasengan is slammed its <<<<<<FRS being flicked.  


yes sandaime and A are close in durability. the only thing both withstood in base with equal level of ease was mabui technique. 

I don't think the author hyped sandaime being so durable he could withstand mabui technique in base only to have A withstand it and him not implying the obvious parallel 

also note so6p Naruto uses yoton FRS it fails to divide juudara before shinju tree absorption. so6p sasuke cuts him in half with chidori

just saying


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

Wtf? Of course a Resegnan can still dig into a target without applying much force. But more force = more damage. That's logic. You don't really understand how ridiculous you sound right now saying force doesn't matter at all. We aren't in elementary school.

They aren't close in durabilty as the Sandaime takes less damage from FRS than Ay does from chidori or a raiton cut.

Except FRS and YRS are different . Futton is more tailored to cutting damage just like raiton unlike Yuton. Sasuke also had a Riduko amped blade.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Wtf? Of course a Resegnan can still dig into a target without applying much force. But more force = more damage. That's logic. You don't really understand how ridiculous you sound right now saying force doesn't matter at all. We aren't in elementary school.
> 
> They aren't close in durabilty as the Sandaime takes less damage from FRS than Ay does from chidori or a raiton cut.
> 
> Except FRS and YRS are different . Futton is more tailored to cutting damage just like raiton unlike Yuton. Sasuke also had a Riduko amped blade.



you have to prove more force equal more damage. and then explain how being able to throw a rhino means Naruto can physical slam a rasegan with that same force. 

A don't got the feat of doing that but we sure as hell know who punches harder between him and Naruto 

lol if we aren't in elementary school why u sounding like a hurt child being bullied?

they are since the only thing kishi used to directly compare them they dealt with it with the same ease. 

perhaps chidori simply is a more piercing jutsu than FRS. did you ever think of that?

lol yoton FRS. still has wind element in it. nice try bro.  

and Naruto had a sage of 6 paths enhanced yoton futon rasen shiruken and it did less damage than sasuke simple chidori amped with So6p

so ill say something I denied more than once chidori got more piercing power than FRS. 

same way nikute got way more piercing power than FRS.


----------



## Veracity (May 25, 2015)

I have to prove more force equals more power ? Lol that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.

Naruto can one shot Asura path with his palm. Asura path stands up after a raiton + Choza + ST assault. He has massive amounts of force behind his strikes.

No. YRS doesn't have futton in it . That pretty much kills your argument.


----------



## Icegaze (May 25, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> I have to prove more force equals more power ? Lol that's one of the dumbest things I've ever read.
> 
> Naruto can one shot Asura path with his palm. Asura path stands up after a raiton + Choza + ST assault. He has massive amounts of force behind his strikes.
> 
> No. YRS doesn't have futton in it . That pretty much kills your argument.



no u have to prove that because SM Naruto is so much stronger than sasuke that his rasengan would harm the raikage

or are u saying if minato used his rasengan on the raikage it would be much weaker since minato has a lot less strength ? 

loooool Naruto used a rasengan, selective reading at its best. Naruto used rasengan to 1 shot asura. which is hardly a big deal. chouji partial transformation attack took asura out of commission for a while. 

so unless ur saying chouji attack is remotely comparable to a rasengan in power I don't see why u bring it up. asura simply isn't that durable that's all 

hahaah so what forms the shiruken shape in the yoton rasenshiruken allow me to show you the scan again since you failed to read it. 

No????

those shuriken blades formed what are they made of? fluff and candy. also notice Naruto uses this jutsu again against kaguya 9 times. 

No????

or are u telling me the 9 shuriken blades are all made of 9 different elements? despite them looking like shuriken and Naruto having wind the best element for cutting things?


----------



## kingcools (May 25, 2015)

kingcools said:


> SM Naruto grabs EI and throws him into the Stratosphere as he did canonically with a waaaaay heavier being. SM Naruto neg diff.



I told you how it ends. Raikage by feats is not even close to narutos strength in SM. He gets thrown into the outer atmosphere and dies.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 26, 2015)

Naruto's strength is grossly overrated. He grabs A, A grabs him and the rips his arms off.

Tossing a rhino in the air or toppling the Kyuubi over isn't impressive as long as we know that Deva realm can block Naruto's kick without sustaining any damage to his arms.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Naruto's strength is grossly overrated. He grabs A, A grabs him and the rips his arms off.
> 
> Tossing a rhino in the air or toppling the Kyuubi over isn't impressive as long as we know that Deva realm can block Naruto's kick without sustaining any damage to his arms.



If anything, Ei has less physical strength than SM Naruto, the only thing that makes his singular hits more powerful are the piercing properties of his hits due to his cloak and the momentum he gains from using shunshin.

As far as grappling goes, the impact that naruto's throws generate are > the impact Ei's liger bomb makes.

As for the thread, I don't think naruto has what it takes to put Ei down before Ei puts him down due to Ei having significantly higher offense and defense.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> If anything, Ei has less physical strength than SM Naruto, the only thing that makes his singular hits more powerful are the piercing properties of his hits due to his cloak and the momentum he gains from using shunshin.
> 
> As far as grappling goes, the impact that naruto's throws generate are > the impact Ei's liger bomb makes.
> 
> As for the thread, I don't think naruto has what it takes to put Ei down before Ei puts him down due to Ei having significantly higher offense and defense.




The thing is, unless they are strictly wresting, Naruto's grappling strength won't come into play here. And A is a wrestler himself, so I doubt Naruto would defeat him in his own game even if it were that.

As for how much other characters can lift, it is impossible to know, because Kishimoto bothered to show it on Naruto only to emphasize the strength he gained from SM.


----------



## Rocky (May 27, 2015)

Preskip, tired, out-of-shape Tsunade jumped over a boss summon carrying the sword the size of a building, and I'm not sure if I'd put her _above_ A in strength, especially without her chakra enhanced striking.

Imo A is stronger than sages. He's got better striking feats, and he's only lacking in lifting feats because he hasn't actually attempted to lift anything. I also doubt KCM Naruto would be marveling at his Sage strength like he was A's.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

^
I completely agree with that. I also think A is stronger than Sages. The thing is, as stupid as it sounds, a feat performed on a fodder animal, no matter how big it is, won't transfer directly into other stuff. I mean Chuunin arc(pre final training) Sasuke oneshot a giant bear(near the size of a boss summon) with a fucking drop kick.

But I know what Ueharakk is going to say. He is going to tell you that A has greater striking power because of his momentum, aka speed and weight factoring in the power behind his hits.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The thing is, unless they are strictly wresting, Naruto's grappling strength won't come into play here. And A is a wrestler himself, so I doubt Naruto would defeat him in his own game even if it were that.
> 
> As for how much other characters can lift, it is impossible to know, because Kishimoto bothered to show it on Naruto only to emphasize the strength he gained from SM.



it's impossible to 'know' almost anything in this manga, even the most blatant of comparisons can be argued against.  Kishimoto doesn't have to show every character trying to lift or throw a boss summon, there are other ways of comparing character strength, so saying kishi only bothere to show it on naruto isn't a valid argument, you have to find other methods of comparing their strength if you don't have another instance of someone boss tossing.

Compare the impacts naruto causes with his throws to the impacts that ei causes with his liger bomb and naruto has the greater raw physical strength.



Rocky said:


> Preskip, tired, out-of-shape Tsunade jumped over a boss summon carrying the sword the size of a building, and I'm not sure if I'd put her _above_ A in strength, especially without her chakra enhanced striking.
> 
> Marveling at Ei's punch isn't the equivalent of Ei's raw strength, and it means even less considering that same Naruto was marvelling at Ei's speed despite being faster than Ei.
> 
> Imo A is stronger than sages. He's got better striking feats, and he's only lacking in lifting feats because he hasn't actually attempted to lift anything. I also doubt KCM Naruto would be marveling at his Sage strength like he was A's.



my argument about their physical strengths has nothing to do with the weight they lift since Ei doesn't have a lifting feat, it's the impact generated by their raw physical throws.  Naruto's impacts are greater.

Marveling at Ei's hitting strength doesn't mean much when we're talking about raw strength and when the same naruto marveled at Ei and even Ei's father's speed despite being faster than both.


----------



## ZE (May 27, 2015)

For those saying A is physically stronger than the sages, I'm interested about what you think of the strength Sage of the Six Paths Naruto (the one that fought Kaguya and Sasuke) has in comparison to A, Tsunade etc. 

Since the source of his strength is the same as SM Naruto, shouldn't it be the same thing? What would happen if A grabs EOS Naruto? can he replicate and overpower that Naruto like he'd most likely do to SM Naruto? 

I'm just curious because I'm at the point where I don't know shit about this series anymore.


----------



## kingcools (May 27, 2015)

SM Naruto is waaaaaaaay stronger than Ei.
He tossed a rhino. Show me Ei doing it.


----------



## Rocky (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> my argument about their physical strengths has nothing to do with the weight they lift since Ei doesn't have a lifting feat, it's the impact generated by their raw physical throws.  Naruto's impacts are greater.



Correct me if I'm wrong, but Naruto's never slammed a human-sized target into the ground to give us a feat to compare to Liger Bomb.



> Marveling at Ei's hitting strength doesn't mean much when we're talking about raw strength and when the same naruto marveled at Ei and even Ei's father's speed despite being faster than both.



Strength is usually handled differently than speed. I can recall many instances where fast characters have referred to slower characters as "fast!", such as KCM Minato calling Tobirama quick. 

However, I don't recall many, if any, moments where a stronger character is shocked at how heavy the weaker character's fist feels.


----------



## UchihaX28 (May 27, 2015)

^ Well, Tobirama's reaction speed is canonically proven to be higher than KCM Minato's.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, but Naruto's never slammed a human-sized target into the ground to give us a feat to compare to Liger Bomb.


why would naruto need to do such a thing?  Naruto provides the energy to send a boss summon high in the air, and therefore the equivalent energy to create the impact crater the boss generates upon landing.  If you include wind resistance, naruto's throw provides much more energy than what generated the crater. 




Rocky said:


> Strength is usually handled differently than speed. I can recall many instances where fast characters have referred to slower characters as "fast!", such as KCM Minato calling Tobirama quick.
> 
> However, I don't recall many if any moments where a stronger character is shocked at how heavy the weaker character's fist feels.


Base Gai is shocked at how powerful 30% kisame is, but does that mean 30% kisame is more powerful than 6th, 7th or even 8th gated Gai?

If you want to say "Gai wasn't in the gates when he made that statement" then I'll say "naruto wasn't in SM when he made that statement".  The statement at best was in regards to KCM Naruto.

Not only that, minato's statement wasn't that of a movement speed, but of initiative just like Tobirama complimented base minato being 'quick to act' when he set all those markers all over the battlefield.


----------



## Rocky (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> why would naruto need to do such a thing?  Naruto provides the energy to send a boss summon high in the air, and therefore the equivalent energy to create the impact crater the boss generates upon landing.  If you include wind resistance, naruto's throw provides much more energy than the crater generates.



I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. 

Naruto throwing Sasuke into the ground is going to produce a smaller crater than Naruto throwing a summon into the ground though. The splash when he _tossed_ Kurama wasn't all that either.



> The statement at best was in regards to KCM Naruto who doesn't have the physical strength to toss bosses.



What is that based on?

He had the strength to push a full sized Bijudama through a barrier, and that technique is known to be quite dense.

I think KCM Naruto's physical strength is comparable to sages.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> it's impossible to 'know' almost anything in this manga, even the most blatant of comparisons can be argued against.  Kishimoto doesn't have to show every character trying to lift or throw a boss summon, there are other ways of comparing character strength, so saying kishi only bothere to show it on naruto isn't a valid argument, you have to find other methods of comparing their strength if you don't have another instance of someone boss tossing.


Well, I wasn't using that as an argument. I was just stating a fact. 
Naruto, being the main character, and being relatively weak compared to the opponents he faces most of the time(in base form), needs more focus and emphasis on his improvements so that the reader can know how strong he has become.



> Compare the impacts naruto causes with his throws to the impacts that ei causes with his liger bomb and naruto has the greater raw physical strength.


I actually don't remember SM Naruto generating an impact like Liger bomb, ever.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I honestly have no idea what you're talking about.
> 
> Naruto throwing Sasuke into the ground is going to produce a smaller crater than Naruto throwing a summon into the ground though. The splash when he _tossed_ Kurama wasn't all that either.


Why would naruto throwing sasuke into the ground produce a smaller crater than naruto throwing a summon into the ground?  If naruto exerts X amount of energy into the ground through a body, that amount of energy is going to go into the ground regardless of what body it's exerted through unless you want to break laws of physics.

Why would you use the splash generated by a fight on water as an indicator of the power of a throw?  Ei isn't throwing sasuke into water, he's throwing him onto solid rock, the instances where boss summon hits rock are applicable.  Plus, if you compare how much debri kurama's claw palm does *here* to how much water it scatters *in his mind battle* (relative to the size of the paw) the water was not operating with naruto-verse physics.  




Rocky said:


> What is that based on?
> 
> He had the strength to push a full sized Bijudama through a barrier, and that technique is known to be quite dense.
> 
> I think KCM Naruto's physical strength is comparable to sages.


How do you compare pushing a full sized bijuudama through a barrier to SM Naruto's strength feats? 

 As far as lifting goes, *KCM Naruto was complaining about how heavy a bijuudama rasengan was* while the actual bijuus are *powerful enough to hold much larger ones,* and* this is how SM Naruto's strength compares to the strongest of those bijuu.
*



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Well, I wasn't using that as an argument. I was just stating a fact.
> Naruto, being the main character, and being relatively weak compared to the opponents he faces most of the time(in base form), needs more focus and emphasis on his improvements so that the reader can know how strong he has become.


so you were stating a fact that's true for almost every claim to knowledge one can make about the manga which means you're stating the obvious and thus adding nothing to the conversation.  The rest of your post is just an explanation why we have feats from naruto, it has nothing to do with attributing quality to said feats or generating comparisons between those feats and others.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I actually don't remember SM Naruto generating an impact like Liger bomb, ever.


He threw a boss summon into the clouds.  Boss summons generate* these kinds of impacts* when they drop from lesser heights, therefore had the boss fell to the ground or had naruto thrown the boss at the ground, the impact would have been at least as big since air resistance takes away the kinetic energy from the body.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 27, 2015)

You don't think Bijuu's can lift each other easily ? 

Makes no sense, they are more or less around the same weight class, and they should be strong enough to lift their own body weight.

I am pretty sure a bijuu is much stronger than sage Naruto in terms of raw strength.


----------



## ueharakk (May 27, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You don't think Bijuu's can lift each other easily ?
> 
> Makes no sense, they are more or less around the same weight class, and they should be strong enough to lift their own body weight.
> 
> I am pretty sure a bijuu is much stronger than sage Naruto in terms of raw strength.



I'm pretty sure the manga showed bijuu being able to lift each other and throw each other.  Easily?  I'm not sure where that was shown or implied, nor can I find anything to indicate that they are much stronger than SM Naruto in terms of raw strength.

If they were significantly stronger than SM naruto, or in a totally different strength class, he wouldn't be able to slam Kurama, it would be a repeat of taka sasuke trying to kick bee and bee not moving, kurama would just pick SM Naruto up with his tail and slam him into the water.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> so you were stating a fact that's true for almost every claim to knowledge one can make about the manga which means you're stating the obvious and thus adding nothing to the conversation.  The rest of your post is just an explanation why we have feats from naruto, it has nothing to do with attributing quality to said feats or generating comparisons between those feats and others.


I was just making a conversation m8. 
No need to be so strict 



> He threw a boss summon into the clouds.  Boss summons generate* these kinds of impacts* when they drop from lesser heights, therefore had the boss fell to the ground or had naruto thrown the boss at the ground, the impact would have been at least as big since air resistance takes away the kinetic energy from the body.



Its not the same thing, mainly because Liger bomb is more of  a striking feat than a lifting feat. And the crater it created is just as deep, if not deeper :* these kinds of impacts*

And also because I don't think Sasuke'd create a crater like that with just free fall. Unless he fell from the stratopshere or something. 



ueharakk said:


> I'm pretty sure the manga showed bijuu being able to lift each other and throw each other.  Easily?  I'm not sure where that was shown or implied, nor can I find anything to indicate that they are much stronger than SM Naruto in terms of raw strength.
> 
> If they were significantly stronger than SM naruto, or in a totally different strength class, he wouldn't be able to slam Kurama, it would be a repeat of taka sasuke trying to kick bee and bee not moving, kurama would just pick SM Naruto up with his tail and slam him into the water.


Dude we have this : * these kinds of impacts*
Don't tell me that kid is much stronger than a bijuu.

Also we know for a fact that shinobi can easily lift each other up, given they are multiple times stronger than regular humans despite being in the same weight class. IF bijuu's strength is in proportion to their size, they should also be able to lift each other up pretty easily.

As for Taka Sasuke.. Just like how B couldn't budge A with a laritat in mid air : * these kinds of impacts*
A is 100kgs. We know that B has more than enough strength to toss him easily.
Lifting =/=Striking.


----------



## Icegaze (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> I'm pretty sure the manga showed bijuu being able to lift each other and throw each other.  Easily?  I'm not sure where that was shown or implied, nor can I find anything to indicate that they are much stronger than SM Naruto in terms of raw strength.
> 
> If they were significantly stronger than SM naruto, or in a totally different strength class, he wouldn't be able to slam Kurama, it would be a repeat of taka sasuke trying to kick bee and bee not moving, kurama would just pick SM Naruto up with his tail and slam him into the water.



hachibi spinning on itself causes a forest levelling whirlwind

speed and power. think about how much force a person must exert to be able to cause a whirlwind

bijuu are much much much stronger thn SM Naruto 

so is A. what is this piercing property due to ration cloak people mention? like why weren't madara arm pierced with this magical piercing property. Or jugo back after the elbow smash


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its not the same thing, mainly because Liger bomb is more of  a striking feat than a lifting feat. And the crater it created is just as deep, if not deeper :Marvel vs. Capcom.


Both are impact feats, as both instances are a character physically hurling their opponent in a direction, therefore the impacts of the character or body are compared.  And that scan that you've provided is massively inconsistent with all the other scans of the liger bomb, so those would be the ones you'd be using for comparison: 1 2 3 4 5



Grimmjowsensei said:


> And also because I don't think Sasuke'd create a crater like that with just free fall. Unless he fell from the stratopshere or something.


I'm guessing this is you just 'making conversation' again since what you've just said has nothing to do with the conversation.  Naruto is the one who provides the kinetic energy for the boss to 'free fall' in the first place.  It takes far less raw strength to throw sasuke an equal distance in the air than it does to throw a boss, thus obviously the impact of sasuke and the ground would be a lot less than the boss and the ground.  

If Naruto throws Sasuke with the same force that he throws the summon, Sasuke goes much further than the summon into the sky, and (assuming no air resistance and atmosphere is unlimited distance from the earth's surface) sasuke's fall will do the same amount of damage to the earth as the boss's fall.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Dude we have this : 5
> Don't tell me that kid is much stronger than a bijuu.


1) When did I ever say Naruto was much stronger than a bijuu
2) unless you have evidence that that chouji is on the same strength tier as a bijuu, a scan of someone lifting him is irrelevant in regards to naruto vs bijuu.  If anything 
3) all that guy did was push chouji a few dozen meters in the air, if you want to go weight vs weight, it has nothing to do with naruto throwing the equivalent of chouji into the clouds.
4) That kid is really powerful at least when it comes to raw strength, even by most of part 2 standards



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Also we know for a fact that shinobi can easily lift each other up, given they are multiple times stronger than regular humans despite being in the same weight class. IF bijuu's strength is in proportion to their size, they should also be able to lift each other up pretty easily.


That only applies to shinobo who are in the same strength class, which is why Sasuke's kick doesn't even budge bee.  had NAruto been in a different strength class than Kurama, kurama doesn't budge as I've already explained.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> As for Taka Sasuke.. Just like how B couldn't budge A with a laritat in mid air : 5
> A is 100kgs. We know that B has more than enough strength to toss him easily.
> Lifting =/=Striking.


What implies that the lariat didn't reposition Ei's location in the air?  The only thing we see is that it didn't phase him physically, and we already know that Bee's lariat does this to Ei, so using an instance where Bee is holding back doesn't mean anything.



Icegaze said:


> hachibi spinning on itself causes a forest levelling whirlwind
> 
> speed and power. think about how much force a person must exert to be able to cause a whirlwind
> 
> ...


The hachibi is not only one of the most powerful bijuu, but its ability to even use the whirlwind is due to it having multiple appendages.  None of the other bijuu have been implied to be able to replicate that feat, by your logic they'd all be massively inferior to the hachibi strength-wise.  

If the biju were significantly stronger than SM Naruto, Naruto wouldn't be able to ragdoll yang Kurama, and gamabunta wouldn't be able to pin 100% Kurama or put up such resistance against Shukaku.

You've given zero arguments for why Ei is stronger, and ignored my own arguments against that. * Piercing property of Ei's raiton cloak* *were shown* multiple times.  Just like the fact that a significant amount of the power of Ei's greatest hits come from the momentum of his shunshins rather than his raw physical strength.

Madara's arm didn't get pierced because madara is really durable, most likely because he's madara.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Both are impact feats, as both instances are a character physically hurling their opponent in a direction, therefore the impacts of the character or body are compared.



The difference being one of  them is not hurled but rather smashed to the ground. 
Eitherway, Liger bomb is more impressive.



> And that scan that you've provided is massively inconsistent with all the other scans of the liger bomb, so those would be the ones you'd be using for comparison: 1 2 3 4 5


Nah I rather go with the one I posted, because that is Kishimoto basically showing the aftermath of the impact, to show how impressive it is. The rest of the times, its just decoration on the floor. 



> I'm guessing this is you just 'making conversation' again since what you've just said has nothing to do with the conversation.  Naruto is the one who provides the kinetic energy for the boss to 'free fall' in the first place.  It takes far less raw strength to throw sasuke an equal distance in the air than it does to throw a boss, thus obviously the impact of sasuke and the ground would be a lot less than the boss and the ground.
> 
> If Naruto throws Sasuke with the same force that he throws the summon, Sasuke goes much further than the summon into the sky, and (assuming no air resistance and atmosphere is unlimited distance from the earth's surface) sasuke's fall will do the same amount of damage to the earth as the boss's fall.



Fair enough.



> 1) When did I ever say Naruto was much stronger than a bijuu


I don't know, what does this have anything to do with what I said ?

I was just showing you a human sized shinobi easily lifting a Bijuu sized Shinobi with 1 hand. 
You claimed that bijuu's can't lift and throw each other easily.



> 2) unless you have evidence that that chouji is on the same strength tier as a bijuu, a scan of someone lifting him is irrelevant in regards to naruto vs biju


Strength doesn't make him heavier.



> That only applies to shinobo who are in the same strength class, which is why Sasuke's kick doesn't even budge bee.  had NAruto been in a different strength class than Kurama, kurama doesn't budge as I've already explained.


Read above.



> What implies that the lariat didn't reposition Ei's location in the air?  The only thing we see is that it didn't phase him physically, and we already know that Bee's lariat does this to Ei, so using an instance where Bee is holding back doesn't mean anything.


Because it wasn't shown, his body posture and angle was the same. 

Even if we assume that B was holding back significantly, do you think B with 50% of his strength can't move 100kgs ?

And this happens right after B "wins" the lariat clash : 5
Raikage launches B back 10 - 20 meters with a simple smack. So again, A can easily lift and throw B around.


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The difference being one of  them is not hurled but rather smashed to the ground.
> Eitherway, Liger bomb is more impressive.


You've stated how the attacks are different, but that alone is irrelevant if you don't show how that difference means anything in regards to who's stronger.

Why is liger bomb more impressive?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nah I rather go with the one I posted, because that is Kishimoto basically showing the aftermath of the impact, to show how impressive it is. The rest of the times, its just decoration on the floor.


Well then that just shows that your stance is more implausible since you are forced to use massively inconsistent showings in order to support it rather than go with what the manga consistently shows.  Your scan also doesn't work since it contradicts the established size of the crater we've seen *before Ei liger bombs *



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I don't know, what does this have anything to do with what I said ?
> 
> *I was just showing you a human sized shinobi easily lifting a Bijuu sized Shinobi with 1 hand.
> You claimed that bijuu's can't lift and throw each other easily*.


You asked me if I believed if that kid was much stronger than the bijuu.  That means you're attacking the stance that "if you can do what that kid did, then you're much stronger than the bijuu".  Where have I ever taken such a stance? Why are you addressing such a stance if I haven't made it?  

We already know there exist human sized shinobi who can easily lift bijuu-sized objecs what in the world does that have to do with bijuu's easily lifting and throwing each other?  The only way I can see that having any implications is if you compare the power of that kid to the power of a bijuu, but you've done no such thing.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Strength doesn't make him heavier.


In the NV, it makes him harder to move which is why bee doesn't flinch when he gets hit by sasuke.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because it wasn't shown, his body posture and angle was the same.
> 
> Even if we assume that B was holding back significantly, do you think B with 50% of his strength can't move 100kgs ?
> 
> ...


body posture and angle are completely irrelevant to Ei's physical location in the air, especially since a lariat forces the target into a particular body posture and angle until the target is released.

Ei hit bee before bee could even react.  Kurama reacted to naruto grabbing his tail long before naruto began his motion to pick him up and throw him.  The instances are not comparable.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> You've stated how the attacks are different, but that alone is irrelevant if you don't show how that difference means anything in regards to who's stronger.


Because to be able to compare them, then A would have to toss Sasuke in the air, and you'd comapre the impact damage with Naruto's when Sasuke collides with the floor.



> Why is liger bomb more impressive?


Because the material(its either concrete or blocks of stone) Sasuke came in contact with is touger than earth and the crater A created is much deeper.



> Well then that just shows that your stance is more implausible since you are forced to use massively inconsistent showings in order to support it rather than go with what the manga consistently shows.  Your scan also doesn't work since it contradicts the established size of the crater we've seen *before Ei liger bombs *


Thats the moment of impact. Like the first couple of frames. There is nothing wrong with the crater getting deeper afterwards.
If you take the first few frames of a bomb going off, you'll probably end up with a much smaller area effect.



> You asked me if I believed if that kid was much stronger than the bijuu.  That means you're attacking the stance that "if you can do what that kid did, then you're much stronger than the bijuu".  Where have I ever taken such a stance? Why are you addressing such a stance if I haven't made it?


You said Bijuu can't lift and toss each other easily.
That kid did what you claim can't be done.



> We already know there exist human sized shinobi who can easily lift bijuu-sized objecs what in the world does that have to do with bijuu's easily lifting and throwing each other?  The only way I can see that having any implications is if you compare the power of that kid to the power of a bijuu, but you've done no such thing.


I lost you here. What are you saying ? How is lifting a bijuu sized object is any different than lifting a bijuu ? 



> In the NV, it makes him harder to move which is why bee doesn't flinch when he gets hit by sasuke.


Its the same in the real world.
Ask your friend to punch or kick you but flex your muscles and brace yourself. Then ask your friend to grab you and lift you off the ground and hurl you.
And see the difference in dispositon.




> body posture and angle are completely irrelevant to Ei's physical location in the air, especially since a lariat forces the target into a particular body posture and angle until the target is released.


It is relevant because he was in mid air, so he had no ground to brace himself, if you pushed the head of a guy in mid air, his feet would come up.



> Ei hit bee before bee could even react.  Kurama reacted to naruto grabbing his tail long before naruto began his motion to pick him up and throw him.  The instances are not comparable.



I wasn't comparing those 2 instances, I was just showing that A is physically capable of easily throwing around shinobi of B's size. 

As for Naruto & Kurama, Kurama couldn't brace himself because Naruto lifted him up. Once your feet leaves the floor, your strength is irrelevant and looking @ Kurama's body and actions he didn't/couldn't try to brace himself


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Preskip, tired, out-of-shape Tsunade jumped over a boss summon carrying the sword the size of a building, and I'm not sure if I'd put her _above_ A in strength, especially without her chakra enhanced striking.
> 
> Imo A is stronger than sages. He's got better striking feats, and he's only lacking in lifting feats because he hasn't actually attempted to lift anything. I also doubt KCM Naruto would be marveling at his Sage strength like he was A's.



Oh really?


----------



## ueharakk (May 28, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because to be able to compare them, then A would have to toss Sasuke in the air, and you'd comapre the impact damage with Naruto's when Sasuke collides with the floor.


Why in the world would that be the only way to compare the raw strength exerted by Ei and Naruto via their throws?  
I've explained many times why compareing the impact of the boss with the ground to Sasuke and he ground would be valid, you've never given attacked the reasoning of that argument, thus you have no reason to disagree with me.  If you do disagree, attack the reasoning behind my argument if you can't, then you can't claim that the impact damages aren't comparable.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because the material(its either concrete or blocks of stone) Sasuke came in contact with is touger than earth and the crater A created is much deeper.


Based on what are those materials significantly tougher than the earth naruto stood on, we've been over why Ei didn't create a deeper crater, then there's the fact that the boss summon loses kinetic energy due to wind resistance meaning had naruto slammed it into the ground like Ei did to sasuke the crater would have been bigger + the boss created a much larger crater.  If anyone's feat is more impressive it's naruto's.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats the moment of impact. Like the first couple of frames. There is nothing wrong with the crater getting deeper afterwards.
> If you take the first few frames of a bomb going off, you'll probably end up with a much smaller area effect.


I'm not talking about the depth, but the size or circumference of the crater.  Plus, none of the debri get sent into the sky or flying, so Ei's liger bomb wouldn't add any depth to the crater, it would only distirb the ground which is consistent with almost all the other striking feats we've seen in the manga.  

So no, you're still forced to accept a massively inconsistent panel over tons of consitent panels that contradict it, as well as impact feats in the manga.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> You said Bijuu can't lift and toss each other easily.
> That kid did what you claim can't be done.


Which is false since tossing a bijuu which is much stronger than chouji would be much harder to do than tossing chouji.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> I lost you here. What are you saying ? How is lifting a bijuu sized object is any different than lifting a bijuu ?


The same reason why Sasuke can't budge bee with a kick despite having the physical strength to move something of equal size with a kick.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its the same in the real world.
> Ask your friend to punch or kick you but flex your muscles and brace yourself. Then ask your friend to grab you and lift you off the ground and hurl you.
> And see the difference in dispositon.


So in one instance, you're allowed to resist the force your friend applies to your body, but in the other instance you're not allowed to do so? 

How about treating this fairly and allowing yourself to resist your friend lifting you off the ground if you're allowed to resist your friend pushing you with a motion?




Grimmjowsensei said:


> It is relevant because he was in mid air, so he had no ground to brace himself, if you pushed the head of a guy in mid air, his feet would come up.


Not if Ei has momentum of his own before he gets hit.  Plus, Naruto and Pa can punch each other multiple times while not moving anywhere in the sky.  The NV does not operate by real world physics in this regard.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> I wasn't comparing those 2 instances, I was just showing that A is physically capable of easily throwing around shinobi of B's size.
> 
> As for Naruto & Kurama, Kurama couldn't brace himself because Naruto lifted him up. Once your feet leaves the floor, your strength is irrelevant and looking @ Kurama's body and actions he didn't/couldn't try to brace himself


Kurama could very well brace himself since he reacted to naruto BEFORE Naruto lifted him up.  Thus his feet were on the floor.  Kurama knows naruto has super strength, knows naruto has grabbed his tail, no reason and nothing indicating he didn't try, but failed to brace himself.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Oh really?





I always found that funny. There's not even a lot of weight on that bar. By feats  even, preskip Sasuke should be capable of spinning that thing around like a combat staff.

I wish this was canon. It kind of reflects my views. 

[YOUTUBE]V61Bjp8FXXg[/YOUTUBE]

Ueharakk's probably right when it comes to A's actual strength being a bit less that the sages, but his speed puts his striking power above them.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2015)

I've, personally, always put Sages above Ā ever since Jiraiya's kicking Human Path _from a stationary position_ yielded greater destruction than Ā elbowing Jūgo *with* enhanced speed.

Tanking Kurama's hits, throwing him around, kicking boss summons and one-shotting them...these are all feats that allow Sages to at least compete physically with V1 Ā, wouldn't you all agree?

I do think I should've allowed Sage Naruto at least Rasengan, however.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I've, personally, always put Sages above Ā ever since Jiraiya's kicking Human Path _from a stationary position_ yielded greater destruction than Ā elbowing Jūgo *with* enhanced speed.



I try to avoid comparing crater sizes (unless there's a ridiculous and obvious difference) and instead rely on basic power scaling and the struck ninja's durability. Human path took a kick to the head and got right back up, while Jugo was knocked out in his Curse Seal form by and elbow to the side.

Jugo had already proved his resiliency (he had a hole punched through him and laughed it off), and _common sense_ should tell you that Jugo'd likely be stronger and more sturdy than the random ninja Nagato turned into his puppet as Jugo is super strong brawler with a super form that increases strength and durability.

You could say that they're comparable, generally speaking, but A has the better feats (two-shotting a Curse Seal brawler, breaking Susano'o, matching v1 B's Lariat) and portrayal when it comes to striking imo. 



> Tanking Kurama's hits, throwing him around, kicking boss summons and one-shotting them...these are all feats that allow Sages to at least compete physically with V1 Ā, wouldn't you all agree?



Compete? Yes, I agree. A's not going to just take a shit on Naruto in a few seconds. He'll probably have to outlast Sage Mode, though he could win before that with Raiton Karate chops that Naruto can't simply block.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I try to avoid comparing crater sizes (unless there's a ridiculous and obvious difference) and instead rely on basic power scaling and the struck ninja's durability. Human path took a kick to the head and got right back up, while Jugo was knocked out in his Curse Seal form by and elbow to the side.



I'm in favour of comparing environmental destruction as a means of deducing relative power; they help us differentiate attacks that can't be directly compared, i.e., Kirin to Bijūdama.



> Jugo had already proved his resiliency (he had a hole punched through him and laughed it off), and _common sense_ should tell you that Jugo'd likely be stronger and more sturdy than the random ninja Nagato turned into his puppet as Jugo is super strong brawler with a super form that increases strength and durability.



Why should common sense be just thrown in as a lazy substitute for legitimate comparisons (crater scaling, that is)? That's just handwaving Jiraiya's feats; by that logic, a 'random ninja that Nagato turned into his puppet' shouldn't be capable of stopping, effortlessly, the blows of a Sannin's ultimate power-up that enabled him to _one-shot giant summons_, but... there you have it.



> You could say that they're comparable, generally speaking, but A has the better feats (two-shotting a Curse Seal brawler, breaking Susano'o, matching v1 B's Lariat) and portrayal when it comes to striking imo.



Breaking Susanoo doesn't really mean much since it's only durability feat was...getting snapped by Liger Bomb  and Jiraiya's already survived, unscratched, a force stronger than that.

Matching V1 B's Lariat probably puts him above Jiraiya (with Lariat though, not just any generic punch/elbow).



> Compete? Yes, I agree. A's not going to just take a shit on Naruto in a few seconds. He'll probably have to outlast Sage Mode, though he could win before that with Raiton Karate chops that Naruto can't simply block.



I don't think Naruto really needs to block them, however. His Frog Katas, labelled a 'perfect and flawless taijutsu style' in Data book IV or something to that effect, should allow him to dodge something as readable as a simple chop. Never mind natural energy which could just as easily deflect it.

His agility when evading the Third's Nukite an inch from his face convinces me on that, as well.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I'm in favour of comparing environmental destruction as a means of deducing relative power; they help us differentiate attacks that can't be directly compared, i.e., Kirin to Bijūdama.



I'm not, because the author is too inconsistent with it, at least when it comes to strength feats.

Bijudama is pretty consistent when it comes to environmental damage (mountain-level), and Kirin has only been used once. With strength though, you have Preskip Lee hitting Gaara into the ground with more force than Jubito kicked Minato with. That's only one of _many_ examples.




> Why should common sense be just thrown in as a lazy substitute for legitimate comparisons (crater scaling, that is)?



Define "legitimate."



> That's just handwaving Jiraiya's feats; by that logic, a 'random ninja that Nagato turned into his puppet' shouldn't be capable of stopping, effortlessly, the blows of a Sannin's ultimate power-up that enabled him to _one-shot giant summons_, but... there you have it.



Well one, if we're going to use that feat, then Jiraiya shouldn't even be _close_ to A. I'm not about to say that Human Path is stronger than Curse Seal Jugo or KCM Naruto, who couldn't just lolnope A's punches.

I don't even like using that feat though looking at Naruto's fight with the Pain bodies. With all the inconsistencies, it's hard to determine shit like strength. It's why I lean towards portrayal/power scaling more so than I did in the past.



> Jiraiya's already survived, unscratched, a force stronger than that.



What force? Didn't Shurado like blow his arm off? You thinking it used something stronger than the Raikage's famed insta-death Liger Bomb?



> I don't think Naruto really needs to block them, however. His Frog Katas, labelled a 'perfect and flawless taijutsu style' in Data book IV or something to that effect, should allow him to dodge something as readable as a simple chop. Never mind natural energy which could just as easily deflect it.



A wouldn't just run up and chop him in half.

Avoiding something _consistently_ over the course of an extended taijutsu exchange is different than doing it once though, and A isn't some slow noob at melee range.


----------



## Veracity (May 28, 2015)

I don't think crater size is reliable at all... I mean just think about it. Does anyone really think KISHI draws all his crater damage to perfect scale ? Do you think he remembers the size of all his craters to make the comparison lol. That's extremely doubtful. It's also outright inconsistent( like Kisames full body swing not pushing the no named road through a wooden floor or 30% Kisames arm yielding a much bigger water splash than a 100% Kisame swing) and then you have add in the inflation from part 1 to part 2.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I'm not, because the author is too inconsistent with it, at least when it comes to strength feats.
> 
> Bijudama is pretty consistent when it comes to environmental damage (mountain-level), and Kirin has only been used once. With strength though, you have Preskip Lee hitting Gaara into the ground with more force than Jubito kicked Minato with. That's only one of _many_ examples.



I don't subscribe to the mentality that inconsistencies of calculations invalidate the entire system as a whole, just as the share of fallacious and clearly hyperbolic statements in the Databook don't negate Naruto's height being 166 cm.

I mean, flaws with calculations are bound to appear, but the way I see it, you disregard those that are blatant outliers (i.e., if Tsunade's punch yielded greater energy than a Bijūdama), but for those that have nothing contradicting it, why not accept them?

Furthermore, the way I compared Jiraiya and Ā's respective attacks weren't in the same vein as calculations anyways; just based off of casual observation: Human Path blew out an gaping hole in a giant boulder from being launched, Jūgo only cracked a wall. That's only *basic visual comparison*, which is how everything is compared if direct ones aren't possible, no?

One is more clearly impressive than the other. I don't see a problem with that. 



> Define "legitimate."



See above.



> Well one, if we're going to use that feat, then Jiraiya shouldn't even be _close_ to A. I'm not about to say that Human Path is stronger than Curse Seal Jugo or KCM Naruto, who couldn't just lolnope A's punches.



I don't really see why not, you're refusing to accept that Human Path could be possibly on NTCM Naruto's or Jūgo's physical level for arbitrary reasons.

I mean, what has Human Path done or failed to do that would invalidate a notion as such?



> I don't even like using that feat though looking at Naruto's fight with the Pain bodies. With all the inconsistencies, it's hard to determine shit like strength. It's why I lean towards portrayal/power scaling more so than I did in the past.



Okay. I'm of the opinion that Sage Jiraiya and Ā have similar strength, both lifting and striking just based off general portrayal: punting around boss-sized summons, launching human bodies hard enough to crack rock a good distance away, etc.

That's about as basic as it gets. 



> What force? Didn't Shurado like blow his arm off? You thinking it used something stronger than the Raikage's famed insta-death Liger Bomb?



Blow? We don't know that. Did Asura Path rip his arm off, then punt him through a wall? Did he use cutting attacks? Who knows? Why couldn't those be more damaging than Liger Bomb?



> A wouldn't just run up and chop him in half.



Usually, as per his fighting style, that's something Ā _would_
do, lol. Not like Sage Naruto would let him.



> Avoiding something _consistently_ over the course of an extended taijutsu exchange is different than doing it once though, and A isn't some slow noob at melee range.



Of course, but I simply see Naruto's sensing, which is virtually precognition, taijutsu prowess (as depicted against the Third), and general speed as being enough to dodge, if not block the vast majority of Ā's hits. 

For those he can't dodge outright, Frog Katas comes into play. The notion of an invisible force that can hit potentially as hard as Sage Naruto is a *huge* gamechanger here.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Okay. I'm of the opinion that Sage Jiraiya and Ā have similar strength, both lifting and striking just based off general portrayal: punting around boss-sized summons, launching human bodies hard enough to crack rock a good distance away, etc.



If that's your opinion then I don't see a reason to argue the individual points any longer. I agree, for standard strikes at least.

Lariat and Raigyaku Suihei are more powerful striking techniques than anything the Sages have demonstrated though.  



> Of course, but I simply see Naruto's sensing, which is virtually precognition, taijutsu prowess (as depicted against the Third), and general speed as being enough to dodge, if not block the vast majority of Ā's hits.



Evading and blocking the _majority_ of your opponents hits is usually required if you're going to last long in a taijutsu exchange, so I don't _disagree_ with that.

Naruto's still going to get hit though, and when he does he'd better hope that A isn't chopping.



> For those he can't dodge outright, Frog Katas comes into play. The notion of an invisible force that can hit potentially as hard as Sage Naruto is a *huge* gamechanger here.



Naruto can't do anything to A with bunt force, so whatever you're suggesting here isn't likely a "game changer."

What are you suggesting though? How are the ghost punches going to help Naruto block/parry Raigyaku Suihei?


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> If that's your opinion then I don't see a reason to argue the individual points any longer. I agree, for standard strikes at least.







> Lariat and Raigyaku Suihei are more powerful striking techniques than anything the Sages have demonstrated though.



That, I can jive with.

To replicate something on the level of Liger Bomb, though, is probably well within Sage Naruto's capacity to perform given his feat with the rhino.



> Evading and blocking the _majority_ of your opponents hits is usually required if you're going to last long in a taijutsu exchange, so I don't _disagree_ with that.
> 
> Naruto's still going to get hit though, and when he does he'd better hope that A isn't chopping.



Eh, it depends. What I meant by gamechanger is that with Frog Katas, Sage Naruto is granted basically another set of limbs but invisible and costs him nothing to use. Against those, it becomes very possible that Ā doesn't do much damage  Naruto at all, because everytime he tries, his attacks are either a) deflected or b) blocked, therefore cushioned, by Frog Katas.

So the battle becomes one where Naruto is constantly able to evade his adversary's blows, but is also capable of landing counterattacks that can't be seen by Ā. Quite a different game than what you suggested, though Ā does win by outlasting, I'll agree to that.



> What are you suggesting though? How are the ghost punches going to help Naruto block/parry Raigyaku Suihei?



See above.


----------



## Rocky (May 28, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Eh, it depends. What I meant by gamechanger is that with Frog Katas, Sage Naruto is granted basically another set of limbs but invisible and costs him nothing to use. Against those, it becomes very possible that Ā doesn't do much damage  Naruto at all, because everytime he tries, his attacks are either a) deflected or b) blocked, therefore cushioned, by Frog Katas.



Assuming that's true, what's to stop A's lightsaber hand from cleaving right through the "natural energy shield" and continuing on its way to Naruto?



> So the battle becomes one where Naruto is constantly able to evade his adversary's blows, but is also capable of landing counterattacks that can't be seen by Ā. Quite a different game than what you suggested, though Ā does win by outlasting, I'll agree to that.



Naruto would likely connect with A more, yes, given that anything A "dodges" is probably going to still hit him because of the surrounding natural energy.

It's probably not going to do anything though, much like B's Lariat on a A when he was airborne.


----------



## Turrin (May 29, 2015)

Are people honestly saying Ei strength is anywhere near a Sennin Modo users. Sennin Mod users could toss around boss summons like nothing and even Fusaku despite his frail old body could deadlift a massive solid stone statue with a single arm. Fuck Naruto toss the goddam Kyuubi w/ his bare hands. I've not come to a decision about who looses in this thread given the restrictions, but jesus, how is this even an argument.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

A's never actually attempted to lift anything heavy, but given the feats of tired rusty base Tsunade & the lowly Jirobo, I doubt Kishi'd have A fail miserably at lifting huge creatures. That's my opinion on it.

When you compare their striking feats...it just goes down hill for the sages. Jiraiya was _extremely_ lackluster. He couldn't overpower the Pain bodies with his physical strength & speed, which is one of the two main reasons Pa decided to resort to genjutsu. 

Granted this could have been the result of a retcon, because the supposedly weaker Sage Naruto performed much better in the sense that he actually killed one of them with a direct hit to the face, but even he wasn't consistent as he couldn't knock out worn-down Tendo with an _unguarded_ kick.

Kabuto didn't even appear to get stronger _at all._ I guess he could bisect people with his scalpels, but I still wonder why he didn't just snap Edo Itachi's blade and rip him in half with his "boss summon tossing" strength.

Kishimoto decided to _emphasize_ _how _ _heavy_ A's fist was on more than one occasion, and sages have never had similar portrayal in that manner. When people fail to block A, they also tend to _stay_ _down_ for a bit, while Sages have inconsistent showings there. The Pain bodies often got right back up after being struck before they could mount a guard, and they have no outside durability hype like a user of the durability-enhancing Curse Seal does.


----------



## ueharakk (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> When you compare their striking feats...it just goes down hill for the sages. Jiraiya was _extremely_ lackluster. He couldn't overpower the Pain bodies with his physical strength & speed, which is one of the two main reasons Pa decided to resort to genjutsu.


doesn't that just mean the pain body that jiraiya couldn't overpower are simply crazy strong themselves?  SM users strength has been given lots of emphasis with their boss tossing feats and jiraiya's striking feat against human path, if someone blocks someone who's really strong, then it means the blocker is really strong as well.  Plus "pain body" is an unfair generalized statement as we know the physical stats vary from body to body.

And jiraiya could overpower the pain bodies with physical strength and speed, but only when it was 1 vs 1.



Rocky said:


> Granted this could have been the result of a retcon, because the supposedly weaker Sage Naruto performed much better in the sense that he actually killed one of them with a direct hit to the face, but even he wasn't consistent as he couldn't knock out worn-down Tendo with an _unguarded_ kick.


Tendou, especially when all nagato's chakra is on him and he's closer to nagato, is just really durable or rather can take a ton of punishment which is why he doesn't even get seriously hurt by things like *getting sent across the city by his own shinra tensei*.  

Compare that tendou to the one *who couldn't even get up* after *blocking one of naruto's kicks,* the difference is real.



Rocky said:


> Kabuto didn't even appear to get stronger _at all._ I guess he could bisect people with his scalpels, but I still wonder why he didn't just snap Edo Itachi's blade and rip him in half with his "boss summon tossing" strength.


you're talking about the blade that could somehow pierce juubi jin madara, so I don't see why the scalpels not snapping it in half means anything, even if that didn't happen scalpels not snapping it in half is a piercing feat of the scalpels, not a strength feat for kabuto.



Rocky said:


> Kishimoto decided to _emphasize_ _how _ _heavy_ A's fist was on more than one occasion, and sages have never had similar portrayal in that manner. When people fail to block A, they also tend to _stay_ _down_ for a bit, while Sages have inconsistent showings there. The Pain bodies often got right back up after being struck before they could mount a guard, and they have no outside durability hype like a user of the durability-enhancing Curse Seal does.


I couldn't disagree with more about this portrayal.

The only person to kill a significant character with a single punch has been a SM user.  Naruto's strikes at least have been *portrayed to be lethal to people as powerful as Pain*.  

As far as people getting up after a sage hits them, I can't recall a time where Naruto or Jiraiya land a hit on Pain and the pain's aren't incapacitated for some time.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> doesn't that just mean the pain body that jiraiya couldn't overpower are simply crazy strong themselves?  SM users strength has been given lots of emphasis with their boss tossing feats and jiraiya's striking feat against human path, if someone blocks someone who's really strong, then it means the blocker is really strong as well.



Scaling Human Path up to Sage level is one way to save face for Jiraiya, but since that particular path has _nothing _in the way of strength hype nor has he demonstrated to be above your typical shinobi on a _consistent _basis, I don't advocate doing that.

I get could get behind Human Path maybe being _slightly_ stronger, similar to how the female Animal Path was slightly slower than the others, but if Jiraiya's _above_ A in striking power, Human Path would have to be pretty comfortably superior to guys like KCM Naruto & CS Jugo...which is ridiculous. 

It's easier to just say that the Sages aren't better than A, which isn't contradicted by anything, and supported by the Human Path thing, Kabuto's failure to overpower Itachi, etc.



> And jiraiya could overpower the pain bodies with physical strength and speed, but only when it was 1 vs 1.



IIRC, linked vision was causing a problem for Jiraiya's taijutsu because he couldn't take their back and blindside them. Shared vision wouldn't increase the strength of the paths or their ability to guard the hits any better.



> Tendou, especially when all nagato's chakra is on him and he's closer to nagato, is just really durable or rather can take a ton of punishment which is why he doesn't even get seriously hurt by things like *getting sent across the city by his own shinra tensei*.
> 
> Compare that tendou to the one *who couldn't even get up* after *blocking one of naruto's kicks,* the difference is real.



My friend, that's reaching.

Tendo didn't have "trouble getting up" from Naruto's kick just because Naruto just threw the Rasenshuriken before he could do so. Tendo was fine, and he got right back up and continued to fight.



> The only person to kill a significant character with a single punch has been a SM user.  Naruto's strikes at least have been *portrayed to be lethal to people as powerful as Pain*.



Not sure how that scan proves lethality, and even if they were that wouldn't be how strength portrayal works. Pain is powerful, but that's because of his Rinnegan, not his strength and durability. 

A impaling/knocking out a freakshow brawler all hopped up on pseudo-sage chakra in two hits is more impressive than Naruto knocking out or even killing a Pain body imo. 



> As far as people getting up after a sage hits them, I can't recall a time where Naruto or Jiraiya land a hit on Pain and the pain's aren't incapacitated for some time.





How about every single Pain path they've ever hit outside of Preta Path?

Compare that to Jugo, who was out for the whole Sasuke fight (and needed to absorb some Samurai juice to survive IIRC), or Mu, who was down for Tsunade's Creation Rebirth and then A & Mei's whole combination attack (presumably to regenerate), and it isn't even a contest.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> Why in the world would that be the only way to compare the raw strength exerted by Ei and Naruto via their throws?
> I've explained many times why compareing the impact of the boss with the ground to Sasuke and he ground would be valid, you've never given attacked the reasoning of that argument, thus you have no reason to disagree with me.  If you do disagree, attack the reasoning behind my argument if you can't, then you can't claim that the impact damages aren't comparable.


The difference is, Sasuke never accelerated towards the collision. He was basically slammed on the floor. He never left A's hands.

And like I mentioned earlier, Kishimoto isn't a physics engineer. There is no way he is a master @ newtonian physics and brings absolute realism into his manga by making calculations for every single panel.

In that sense it is impossible to compare crater sizes(not that the are consistent anyways) coming from different types of impact.



> Based on what are those materials significantly tougher than the earth naruto stood on,


Based on logic. Concrete or a block of stone used in construction is tougher than soil.

Try to dig a hole on the soil by using a shovel or a pickaxe. You can probably dig using your hands to some extend.
Then try the same thing on concrete. 




> we've been over why Ei didn't create a deeper crater, then there's the fact that the boss summon loses kinetic energy due to wind resistance meaning had naruto slammed it into the ground like Ei did to sasuke the crater would have been bigger + the boss created a much larger crater.  If anyone's feat is more impressive it's naruto's.


Only if you could convince me that Kishimoto thought about the boss summon losing Kinetic energy or calculated every single detail and tried to convey the realism as much as possible.
Not that the attacks are comparable anyway. 



> I'm not talking about the depth, but the size or circumference of the crater.  Plus, none of the debri get sent into the sky or flying, so Ei's liger bomb wouldn't add any depth to the crater, it would only distirb the ground which is consistent with almost all the other striking feats we've seen in the manga.
> 
> So no, you're still forced to accept a massively inconsistent panel over tons of consitent panels that contradict it, as well as impact feats in the manga.



Authors intention is more important than physics calculations we attempt to do. 
So when he shows you the aftermath of liger bomb, his intention is to show you  the significance of that attack. I doubt he thought "where did the debris go ?"
The point is, debris went somewhere, no one cares. 



> Which is false since tossing a bijuu which is much stronger than chouji would be much harder to do than tossing chouji.


Not if they are around the same weight.
And considering Chouji is more bulkier than Kyuubi for example, he should be even heavier.



> The same reason why Sasuke can't budge bee with a kick despite having the physical strength to move something of equal size with a kick.


I already explained they are irrelevant.



> So in one instance, you're allowed to resist the force your friend applies to your body, but in the other instance you're not allowed to do so?
> 
> How about treating this fairly and allowing yourself to resist your friend lifting you off the ground if you're allowed to resist your friend pushing you with a motion?


Lifting is different than striking. You can't resist lifting the way you can resist strikes or pushes. The moment you'r off the ground, your strength becomes irrelevant.



> Not if Ei has momentum of his own before he gets hit.  Plus, Naruto and Pa can punch each other multiple times while not moving anywhere in the sky.  The NV does not operate by real world physics in this regard.


Oh now you decided to dismiss physics ? 



> Kurama could very well brace himself since he reacted to naruto BEFORE Naruto lifted him up.  Thus his feet were on the floor.  Kurama knows naruto has super strength, knows naruto has grabbed his tail, no reason and nothing indicating he didn't try, but failed to brace himself.



He noticed Naruto behind him when Naruto grabbed his tail but he seemed surprised when Naruto lift him off the grounds.
Besides, it is physically impossible for him to brace himself against lifting unless he had something to hold on to which he didn't.
If he could grab onto something, or grab Naruto's arms and prevent him from applying force by using counter force, then you'd have an argument but you don't.

Its like pulling a rug under someones feet. Doesn't matter how strong they are.


----------



## Turrin (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> A's never actually attempted to lift anything heavy, but given the feats of tired rusty base Tsunade & the lowly Jirobo, I doubt Kishi'd have A fail miserably at lifting huge creatures. That's my opinion on it.


Rusty-Tsunade does not have the raw feats of the Sages. The best she's got is lifting Bunta's sword, which is actually quite far off from toss around actual boss-summons, tossing Kurama, and Fukaksaku dead lifting giant stone statue w/ a single arm..

Jirobo is one of the physically strongest characters in the entire verse and I see no reason to even remotely equate Ei to him.



> When you compare their striking feats...it just goes down hill for the sages. Jiraiya was extremely lackluster. He couldn't overpower the Pain bodies with his physical strength & speed, which is one of the two main reasons Pa decided to resort to genjutsu.


Scaling off Pain doesn't make much sense. The Pain Realms are corpses so unless they are hit by something that completely stops their body from being able to move or have enough of their black rods destroyed/removed, they will get back up no matter the amount of damage. That's why Deva could take being hit by ST and sent flying into a sheer cliff and could tank a partial TBB hit. It's also why paths like Human and Animal could get back up despite SM-Jiriaya ragdolling them when his hits landed. 

As far as couldn't overpower the bodies goes. Thee only body who held back his strength was Human-Realm, who was clearly presented as one of the main CQC oriented paths. So I tend to believe Human Realm is just that strong rather than it being an issue of Jiraiya being weak, which his other feats and the feats of other Toad SM users clearly contradict. 

And when it comes to speed, Rinnegan's Perception and Shared Vision trolls speed. Fuck Nagato who was crippled and therefore slower than the Paths was reacting to Killer-B despite dealing with Naruto, simply due to shared vision. And Killer-B easily kept up with V1 Ei. And the implication is that Nagato even while dealing with Naruto and B, could have reacted to Itachi's Susano'o ambush as well had Itachi not taken out his shared vision during that attack. So shared vision is just extremely good against speed, and it clearly can counter V1-Ei speed characters just as easily as it can counter SM-Jiraiya.



> Granted this could have been the result of a retcon, because the supposedly weaker Sage Naruto performed much better in the sense that he actually killed one of them with a direct hit to the face, but even he wasn't consistent as he couldn't knock out worn-down Tendo with an unguarded kick.


While I do think the whole SM spider senses were retecon'd, and if Jiraiya had them when facing Pain, he would have performed better. I don't think this is a retecon. Rather I think it just comes down to Naruto lucking into how he hit Pain. They way he hit fatty broke his neck, thus stopping any movement from being possible. 



> Kabuto didn't even appear to get stronger at all. I guess he could bisect people with his scalpels, but I still wonder why he didn't just snap Edo Itachi's blade and rip him in half with his "boss summon tossing" strength.


Kabuto is an outlier and perhaps that has to do with the difference between Ryuuchi-SM and Toad-SM. Kishi just never bother to explain it. Though I suspect it's more due to the dues ex machina durability of Sasuke's sword that has allowed it to tank CO in the past.



> Kishimoto decided to emphasize how heavy A's fist was on more than one occasion, and sages have never had similar portrayal in that manner. When people fail to block A, they also tend to stay down for a bit, while Sages have inconsistent showings there.


In terms of weight of ones fist, such a thing is much more clearly shown with SM-Naruto here than in any other instance:
*portrayed to be lethal to people as powerful as Pain*

So yes they have had similar portrayal. 

In terms of people failing to block Ei. Ei's blow on half-power Mu you just showed was far less impressive than Jiraiya's strike against the Bull-Boss Summon, Human-Realm, and Naruto's strike against HG Realm. And so on. 

And when Ei's attacks hit some people have a hard time getting up, while when a Sage's attack hits fucking Boss Summons are one-shot. They are incomparable.

And your also are clearly avoiding comparing any other strength feats, such as lifting, throwing, etc... because your know the Sages troll Ei in those regards.



> The Pain bodies often got right back up after being struck before they could mount a guard, and they have no outside durability hype like a user of the durability-enhancing Curse Seal does.


Again they are literally corpses so their movements need to be stopped to be defeated.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (May 29, 2015)

Dude Naruto's strength isn't hyped there, its his "ghost punches."

A utility aspect of SM.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

Turrin said:


> Rusty-Tsunade does not have the raw feats of the Sages. The best she's got is lifting Bunta's sword, which is actually quite far off from toss around actual boss-summons, tossing Kurama, and Fukaksaku dead lifting giant stone statue w/ a single arm..



Tsunade didn't just lift that sword. She jumped with it and swung it, pretty quickly at that.

It's easily comparable to the boss summon feats.



> Jirobo is one of the physically strongest characters in the entire verse and I see no reason to even remotely equate Ei to him.



Do you know what power scaling is?

Jirobo's punch was noped by Preskip Choji's off hand, and Choji proceeded to one-shot him through his CS2 durability. 

If you want to think that it goes KCM Naruto < Raikage <<< Jirobo <<< Preskip Choji, then go ahead. I'll just disagree for eternity. 



> The Pain Realms are corpses so unless they are hit by something that completely stops their body from being able to move or have enough of their black rods destroyed/removed, they will get back up no matter the amount of damage. That's why Deva could take being hit by ST and sent flying into a sheer cliff and could tank a partial TBB hit. It's also why paths like Human and Animal could get back up despite SM-Jiriaya ragdolling them when his hits landed.



They're _animated_ corpses and they behave like normal human beings. They can talk, feel pain, feel fatigue, etc. 

Naruto put them down with Rasengan, Jiraiya put them down by stabbing them, and Jiraiya later killed Animal Path by submerging his lower half in acid.



> As far as couldn't overpower the bodies goes. Thee only body who held back his strength was Human-Realm, who was clearly presented as one of the main CQC oriented paths. So I tend to believe Human Realm is just that strong rather than it being an issue of Jiraiya being weak, which his other feats and the feats of other Toad SM users clearly contradict.



Human Path has no other showings of strength, nor did _anyone_ comment on his strength. He's literally got that one feat. I'd rather call it an outlier than say Human Path is Sage tier in physical might. 



> And when it comes to speed, Rinnegan's Perception and Shared Vision trolls speed. Fuck Nagato who was crippled and therefore slower than the Paths was reacting to Killer-B despite dealing with Naruto, simply due to shared vision. And Killer-B easily kept up with V1 Ei. And the implication is that Nagato even while dealing with Naruto and B, could have reacted to Itachi's Susano'o ambush as well had Itachi not taken out his shared vision during that attack. So shared vision is just extremely good against speed, and it clearly can counter V1-Ei speed characters just as easily as it can counter SM-Jiraiya.



One, Naruto said something along the lines of Nagato being "faster and stronger" than Pain was. Being crippled doesn't lower Nagato's _reflex _speed, just his foot speed, which was not used in countering B (or Itachi).

Two, the only character there that has a batter flicker than A is KCM Naruto, and he didn't use it on Nagato, but instead was caught in midair by the chameleon while he was worrying about B. 

This doesn't  atter much though, because I don't think Jiraiuya should have been able to blitz the paths anyway. His _strength_ still should have been too much for the bodies that were present, if it was Raikage-level at least.



> Kabuto is an outlier and perhaps that has to do with the difference between Ryuuchi-SM and Toad-SM. Kishi just never bother to explain it. Though I suspect it's more due to the dues ex machina durability of Sasuke's sword that has allowed it to tank CO in the past.



Sage Kabuto's _whole character_ is an outlier? 



> In terms of weight of ones fist, such a thing is much more clearly shown with SM-Naruto here than in any other instance:
> Link removed



Instead of linking a scan showing somebody commenting on how much power there is behind one of Naruto's blows, you linked a scan of him manipulating natural energy into a chakra reciever.

Want to tell me why? 



> In terms of people failing to block Ei. Ei's blow on half-power Mu you just showed was far less impressive than Jiraiya's strike against the Bull-Boss Summon, Human-Realm, and Naruto's strike against HG Realm. And so on.



A put Mu & CS Jugo down for *far* longer than Jiraiya kept any Pain body down for. The boss summon thing would have been a good feat _had we actually had evidence that ke kicked it_ rather than using some jutsu there. It's like how we say that Shurado didn't just rip Sage Jiraiya's arm off; it wasn't shown.



> And your also are clearly avoiding comparing any other strength feats, such as lifting, throwing, etc... because your know the Sages troll Ei in those regards.



No debate from me here. Sages have the better lifting feats. I just think A'd be able to replicate them via power scaling.


----------



## ueharakk (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Scaling Human Path up to Sage level is one way to save face for Jiraiya, but since that particular path has _nothing _in the way of strength hype nor has he demonstrated to be above your typical shinobi on a _consistent _basis, I don't advocate doing that.
> 
> I get could get behind Human Path maybe being _slightly_ stronger, similar to how the female Animal Path was slightly slower than the others, but if Jiraiya's _above_ A in striking power, Human Path would have to be pretty comfortably superior to guys like KCM Naruto & CS Jugo...which is ridiculous.
> 
> It's easier to just say that the Sages aren't better than A, which isn't contradicted by anything, and supported by the Human Path thing, Kabuto's failure to overpower Itachi, etc.


When did Human path ever perform below the strength level he'd be if he's strong enough to catch jiraiya's hit?  




Rocky said:


> IIRC, linked vision was causing a problem for Jiraiya's taijutsu because he couldn't take their back and blindside them. Shared vision wouldn't increase the strength of the paths or their ability to guard the hits any better.


you said Jiraiya couldn't overwhelm them in speed and strength, so you'd have to disregard your statement about speed if you're comparing the characters, and as far as strength goes, the only one who actually showed it could physically compete is human path.



Rocky said:


> My friend, that's reaching.
> 
> Tendo didn't have "trouble getting up" from Naruto's kick just because Naruto just threw the Rasenshuriken before he could do so. Tendo was fine, and he got right back up and continued to fight.


how in the world is that reaching?

Naruto kicks tendou, and has the time to create 2 kagebunshins, form a rasenshuriken, throw it, and then watch as preta path runs in front of it and completely absorbs it before tendou is back on his feet.  That's incapacitation for a substantial amount of time in terms of a battle.  When has anyone else in the manga rendered unable to even stand after blocking a hit with their arms? 




Rocky said:


> Not sure how that scan proves lethality, and even if they were that wouldn't be how strength portrayal works. Pain is powerful, but that's because of his Rinnegan, not his strength and durability.
> 
> A impaling/knocking out a freakshow brawler all hopped up on pseudo-sage chakra in two hits is more impressive than Naruto knocking out or even killing a Pain body imo.


a ninja's durability and resilience isn't only based on their physicality, it increases with powerscale and more powerful chakra which is why the path's of pain can take such punishment.

I don't see how doing that to juugo is all that more impressive when juugo is in a kid's body and Ei has to boost the power of his hits by shunshin + make juugo believe he's dead in order to land the decisive second hit.




Rocky said:


> How about every single Pain path they've ever hit outside of Preta Path?
> 
> Compare that to Jugo, who was out for the whole Sasuke fight (and needed to absorb some Samurai juice to survive IIRC), or Mu, who was down for Tsunade's Creation Rebirth and then A & Mei's whole combination attack (presumably to regenerate), and it isn't even a contest.


Literally none of what you typed contradicted my post.  

I claimed that in every instance sages land a hit on their opponent, the opponent is incapacitated for some time, and you do not dispute it.

Sure Ei's second hit on a completely oblivious juugo took him out, but why wouldn't SM Naruto using his full shunshin to aid his punch do the same to a juugo who doesn't even know he's there?  
How is downing muu for that amount of time impressive when muu has no physical or durability feats to speak of and is in such a weakened state that he can't even use jinton?

Lets look at the score, there are 4 instances where SM users land hits on people.  The first is more impressive destruction-wise than Ei's hits on juugo.  The second sends animal realm bouncing off the wall and then the scene gets cut off.  The third is the one time someone is actually killed by a single punch in the manga.  The fourth incaps a and sends path who has increadible durability/reslience feats flying, and the hit hardly had any power in it considering naruto's momentum is moving in the opposite direction of his kick.  

Put jiraiya or Naruto in Ei's position where kid juugo believes both are dead and they are allowed to shunshin hit him, why would it be surprising that juugo would be knocked out by that?


----------



## ueharakk (May 29, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> The difference is, Sasuke never accelerated towards the collision. He was basically slammed on the floor. He never left A's hands.
> 
> And like I mentioned earlier, Kishimoto isn't a physics engineer. There is no way he is a master @ newtonian physics and brings absolute realism into his manga by making calculations for every single panel.
> 
> In that sense it is impossible to compare crater sizes(not that the are consistent anyways) coming from different types of impact.


The only reason Sasuke's body wouldn't also be accelerating to the ground under the affects of gravity is if Ei is providing some upward force to counter that force which is obviously false since as you've stated, Ei is slamming sasuke down into the ground, all the force Ei is providing is downard which means it stacks on top of the gravitational pull on Sasuke's body.  It takes a very very elementary level understanding of physics to comprehend this mind you.

Lol, no one is saying or requiring Kishi to be a physics engineer.  Bigger crater = bigger impact, that's the only thing being asserted here, and that's again an extremely elementary concept that's typical of shounen authors to incorporate into power displays.

So no, crater impact sizes are by far the best way to gauge both attacks.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Based on logic. *Concrete or a block of stone used in construction is tougher than soil.*
> 
> Try to dig a hole on the soil by using a shovel or a pickaxe. You can probably dig using your hands to some extend.
> Then try the same thing on concrete.


The bolded is asserting that the crater naruto made was on soil.  If so, why do we see that 'soil' break up into stone fragments?  The 'ground' that naruto created a crater in is made of solid rock as *literally shown in the manga.*

And what implies that concrete is more durable than solid bedrock?  There have been nothing that implied that the ground liger bomb was used on was any more or less durable than the ground gamahiro fell on, or any ground for that matter other than sand.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Only if you could convince me that Kishimoto thought about the boss summon losing Kinetic energy or calculated every single detail and tried to convey the realism as much as possible.
> Not that the attacks are comparable anyway.


Wait a second, why in the world am I trying to convince you?  If someone doesn't want to be convinced, there's no convincing them no matter how compelling an argument you make.  However what you can do is show how terrible the other person's reasoning is that they use to reject your own argument.

And like i've already stated before, a bigger crater = a bigger impact is in no way shape or form Kishi calculating every single detail or trying to convey realism as much as possible, that's just typical shounen power display.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Authors intention is more important than physics calculations we attempt to do.
> So when he shows you the aftermath of liger bomb, his intention is to show you  the significance of that attack. I doubt he thought "where did the debris go ?"
> The point is, debris went somewhere, no one cares.


We're literally arguing about author's intention, you merely saying that 'this is what kishi intended to do' is just an assertion backed up by zero arguments.  We don't see any debri from Ei's hit, all we see is disturbed ground just like 90% of all physical hits on the ground in the manga, and we see that every other scan contradicts that singular scan that your entire argument banks on.  So no, authors intent is on my side.  Even if your scan was the only one to work with, the 'crater' that Ei was in was already that deep before he liger bombed based on the slope of the outside of the crater.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Not if they are around the same weight.
> 
> And considering Chouji is more bulkier than Kyuubi for example, he should be even heavier.
> I already explained they are irrelevant.
> ...


The instance where naruto lifts the kyuubi is when the kyuubi is first on the ground and able to resist.  So strength of combatants definitely applies, not just dead weight, Bee vs Sasuke's kick is relevant.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> Oh now you decided to dismiss physics ?


I've given my reasoning for that which is that we know kishi literally does the same thing for those kinds of cases, since you've provided no counterargument that would be you conceding that point.




Grimmjowsensei said:


> He noticed Naruto behind him when Naruto grabbed his tail but he seemed surprised when Naruto lift him off the grounds.
> Besides, it is physically impossible for him to brace himself against lifting unless he had something to hold on to which he didn't.
> If he could grab onto something, or grab Naruto's arms and prevent him from applying force by using counter force, then you'd have an argument but you don't.
> 
> Its like pulling a rug under someones feet. Doesn't matter how strong they are.


Obviously the kyuubi would be surprised that naruto lifted him if he tried to resist.  The kyuubi used chakra to his feet to hold onto the water/ground which is why he doesn't just sink, and why naruto can anchor himself to the floor in order to throw the kyuubi something that would be impossible for him to do so otherwise.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> When did Human path ever perform below the strength level he'd be if he's strong enough to catch jiraiya's hit?



He never performed to that level strength ever again, nor was anything ever stated about his strength being special. 

I'm not even sure if it's contradictory considering other sages have failed to overpower regular human characters like Itachi and Madara.



> Naruto kicks tendou, and has the time to create 2 kagebunshins, form a rasenshuriken, throw it, and then watch as preta path runs in front of it and completely absorbs it before tendou is back on his feet.



Which doesn't take alot of time. 

By the time Tendo looked up, presumably after he finished tumbling, Naruto already had the Rasenshuriken formed. 

You're making something out of nothing.



> a ninja's durability and resilience isn't only based on their physicality, it increases with powerscale and more powerful chakra which is why the path's of pain can take such punishment.



...yeah no.

EMS Sasuke is not even close to A in terms of durability despite being tiers stronger with far more potent & sinister chakra. 



> Lets look at the score, there are 4 instances where SM users land hits on people.  The first is more impressive destruction-wise than Ei's hits on juugo.  The second sends animal realm bouncing off the wall and then the scene gets cut off.  The third is the one time someone is actually killed by a single punch in the manga.  The fourth incaps a and sends path who has increadible durability/reslience feats flying, and the hit hardly had any power in it considering naruto's momentum is moving in the opposite direction of his kick.



Human Path and Deva Path have both gotten up from the attacks of Sages yet gone down to attacks like Rasengan and Jiraiya's sword, which probably wouldn't take down Jugo given that he was fine after the Raikage punched a giant hole in him.

I doubt the sages have what it takes to get through Susano'o either, what with Kabuto getting cockblocked by it against the Uchiha brothers.



> Put jiraiya or Naruto in Ei's position where kid juugo believes both are dead and they are allowed to shunshin hit him, why would it be surprising that juugo would be knocked out by that?



Jugo wasn't put down being impaled, so the guy is clearly above the Pain bodies in terms of resiliency, sans possibly Shurado. He's also likely above them all in durability _given the hype of the Curse Seal enhancing it_, so why _wouldn't_ I be surprised?


----------



## Turrin (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Tsunade didn't just lift that sword. She jumped with it and swung it, pretty quickly at that.
> 
> It's easily comparable to the boss summon feats.





Not even in the same universe



> Do you know what power scaling is?
> 
> Jirobo's punch was noped by Preskip Choji's off hand, and Choji proceeded to one-shot him through his CS2 durability.
> 
> If you want to think that it goes KCM Naruto < Raikage <<< Jirobo <<< Preskip Choji, then go ahead. I'll just disagree for eternity.


I know exactly what power-scaling is, and it's not an excuse to say Ei is better than every PI character there ever was in Str. Power-scaling means on average the characters have gotten stronger, and we certainly see that with Ei and Jirobo, as Ei is way stronger than Jirobo and BM-Choji, due to far excelling Jirobo in other areas such as spd, taijutsu-skill, ninjutsu, etc...

However Jirobo and BM-Choji being better than Ei in 1 area from P1, does not in any way go against Power-scalling. Anymore than P1-Kakashi still being smarter than most P2 characters means power-scaling is invalidate.

So yes I do believe Jirobo and BM-Choji >>>> Ei/KCM-Naruto in physical strength, until you show me anything those two show that is remotely in the same universe as this:





> They're animated corpses and they behave like normal human beings. They can talk, feel pain, feel fatigue, etc.
> 
> Naruto put them down with Rasengan, Jiraiya put them down by stabbing them, and Jiraiya later killed Animal Path by submerging his lower half in acid.


And you realize that in all instances your citing they were not put down due to simply blunt damage but due to Naruto and Jriaiya ether dealing them damage that stopped them from being able to move or destroying their black rods at mass.



> Human Path has no other showings of strength, nor did anyone comment on his strength. He's literally got that one feat. I'd rather call it an outlier than say Human Path is Sage tier in physical might.


He also doesn't have any showing that contradict that showing, so your literally taking that away from him for no reason. But even if you want to call it an outlier, you can't than turn around and argue it as a reason for why SM-Jriaya's strength isn't impressive. 



> One, Naruto said something along the lines of Nagato being "faster and stronger" than Pain was. Being crippled doesn't lower Nagato's reflex speed, just his foot speed, which was not used in countering B (or Itachi).


He said his moves are better, which could refer to his movement or his actual attacks. And even if you wish to discount that Nagato was any slower than the Paths in reacting, it doesn't really matter as they still held a numerical advantage on top of having all the same advantages Nagato had.



> Two, the only character there that has a batter flicker than A is KCM Naruto, and he didn't use it on Nagato, but instead was caught in midair by the chameleon while he was worrying about B.


Base-B kept up with V1-Ei, so I don't know what your talking about. Three-Tome-Sasuke also aimed dodged V1 Ei, and both B and KCM-Naruto are faster than him, and so is Itachi especially with Susano'o, and yet Itachi also had to take out shared vision to get past Nagato. You have absolutely no argument for V1-Ei performing any better against Shared Vision than these characters did.



> This doesn't atter much though, because I don't think Jiraiuya should have been able to blitz the paths anyway. His strength still should have been too much for the bodies that were present, if it was Raikage-level at least.


It was too much for the bodies. Again literally thee only body who stopped his blow was Human-Realm, which you said was an outlier. So make up your mind Rocky.



> Sage Kabuto's whole character is an outlier?


I meant he is an outlier compared to the other Sages, which maybe due to the difference between Toad and Snake SM, which Kishi never bother to completely explain. But he never demonstrated any massive increase to strength like the other Sages did.



> Instead of linking a scan showing somebody commenting on how much power there is behind one of Naruto's blows, you linked a scan of him manipulating natural energy into a chakra reciever.


I'll have to translate the Frog Smash entry in the DB to know if this is correct, don't have time right now, but i'll get back to it. 

As far as comments go, read Fusaku talking about Senjutsu and displays of strength and read DB's 



> A put Mu & CS Jugo down for far longer than Jiraiya kept any Pain body down for.


V1 Ei hit Juugo and Juugo immediately used lazers against him. So now Juugo got back in the game quicker than ether Pain body. It was only after Juugo was hit a second time that he submitted for awhile and SM-Jiraiya never hit a Pain body twice. Beyond that Pain bodies again do not follow normal conventions as they are already dead and are made to move, so they will get up no matter the damage unless they are rendered immobile 



> he boss summon thing would have been a good feat had we actually had evidence that ke kicked it rather than using some jutsu there. It's like how we say that Shurado didn't just rip Sage Jiraiya's arm off; it wasn't shown.


It's obvious that he kicked it. 



> No debate from me here. Sages have the better lifting feats.


So how the fuck are they not physically stronger than.



> I just think A'd be able to replicate them via power scaling.


Cool and ChoCho >>>>>>>>>>>> Ei because of powerscaling


----------



## Trojan (May 29, 2015)

Just because A was not showing in the same situation as Jirobo, does not mean he can't do it.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

Here's what I ended up with reading that post.

Strength tiers:

CS Jugo ≤ KCM Naruto < A <<<< CS Jirobo << Preskip Choji ~ Sages except Kabuto 'cause reasons ~ Human Path.


----------



## Bonly (May 29, 2015)

Here's what I ended up with reading that post.

Strength tiers:

CS Jugo ≤ KCM Naruto < A <<<< CS Jirobo << Preskip Choji ~ Sages except Kabuto 'cause reasons ~ Human Path.


----------



## Veracity (May 29, 2015)

The Choji and Jirubo are overhyped as hell. By pure portrayal, they pale in comparison to Tsunade and Ay. I don't even think BM Choji punches as hard as tsuande tbh.

The fest with human path is an outlier, and that's obvious as shit. Feats and hype put the sages on the same level as Ay, as proved in the thread. At probably has a slight edge in striking ability( based on the speed he applies) while Sages have the edge in lifting strength. However Byakago Tsuande should be at the very least equal to a Sage in lifting ability and a good deal better in striking ability.


----------



## ueharakk (May 29, 2015)

Rocky said:


> He never performed to that level strength ever again, nor was anything ever stated about his strength being special.


him never performing that level of strength again is completely irrelevant if he never gets the chance to do so.  Nothing was ever 'stated' about sm jiraiya's strength being special, there are many characters who don't get statements about speed or strength yet are put on the level of people who get those statements.  If a character only has one instance to judge them by, then that's all you can judge them by.



Rocky said:


> I'm not even sure if it's contradictory considering other sages have failed to overpower regular human characters like Itachi and Madara.


since when did sages ever try to overpower itachi or madara?  scalpel clashing with a sword?  Madara is a regular human character?



Rocky said:


> Which doesn't take alot of time.
> 
> By the time Tendo looked up, presumably after he finished tumbling, Naruto already had the Rasenshuriken formed.


...and what about him not being able to even begin to get up until the rasenshuriken was thrown, traveled to him, preta jumped in the way and completely absorbed the entire thing?



Rocky said:


> You're making something out of nothing.


You're trying to make nothing out of something to suit your agenda which is why you ignore the later of what happens.  Is there ever a time when a character gets ragdolled like deva did after merely blocking a kick?  




Rocky said:


> ...yeah no.
> 
> EMS Sasuke is not even close to A in terms of durability despite being tiers stronger with far more potent & sinister chakra.



Don't waste my time.  Did I say that stronger/more chakra = necessarily stronger?  It's a FACTOR, do you dispute that or do you not?  




Rocky said:


> Human Path and Deva Path have both gotten up from the attacks of Sages yet gone down to attacks like Rasengan and Jiraiya's sword, which probably wouldn't take down Jugo given that he was fine after the Raikage punched a giant hole in him.


So you're going to ignore all the punishment deva path took before he got rasenganed?  Not only that, but how is juugo surviving a rasengan to the stomache when rasengans are strong enough to rip through things much more durable than weaponized steel and are equal to chidori.  Raikage's punch only dented juugo, it was him forcing his arm into juugo that eventually made the hole.



Rocky said:


> I doubt the sages have what it takes to get through Susano'o either, what with Kabuto getting cockblocked by it against the Uchiha brothers.


Ei at best could get through the weakest of ribcage susanoo, and he had to go V2 shunshin slash in order to merely damage sasuke through it.  His liger bomb (which is the thing being compared here btw) merely snapped a small rib off of it and cracked it.  Was that the susanoo that was used against Kabuto?  Obviously not, he got blocked by giant susanoo hands.  Put Ei into the same situation and he doesn't get through those susanoo either.






Rocky said:


> Jugo wasn't put down being impaled, so the guy is clearly above the Pain bodies in terms of resiliency, sans possibly Shurado. He's also likely above them all in durability _given the hype of the Curse Seal enhancing it_, so why _wouldn't_ I be surprised?


When was Juugo impaled?  And to what extent was he damaged when he was impaled?  Why does his hpe of durability put him above them when we've seen them take hits that are worse?  By hype juugo should be much more durable than edo madara, but that's obviously not the case.


----------



## Rocky (May 29, 2015)

We derailed this thread, so I'll make a separate one to see what people think.


----------



## Turrin (May 30, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Here's what I ended up with reading that post.
> 
> Strength tiers:
> 
> CS Jugo ≤ KCM Naruto < A <<<< CS Jirobo << Preskip Choji ~ Sages except Kabuto 'cause reasons ~ Human Path.



No it's 

Ei < Toad Sages < CS2-Jirobo < BM-Choji


----------



## OneSimpleAnime (May 30, 2015)

Turrin said:


> No it's
> 
> Ei < Toad Sages < CS2-Jirobo < BM-Choji



Its actually 

CS2-Jirobo<<<BM-Choji<=Ei<Toad Sages


----------



## ATastyMuffin (May 31, 2015)

I think we've come to a consensus here, regarding strength: (I have absolutely zero idea how this thread blew up, but it is the Naruto Battledome )

Ā's regular striking power can be matched or even eclipsed by the Sages (see Jūgo vs. Ā's elbow compared to Jiraiya vs. Human Path/Yak), and his raw physical prowess is outperformed by Naruto's rhino-hurling power, but when he applies his speed to his strikes to an insane degree (just V2, mind you), or opt to utilize cutting techniques, he can substantially exceed what the Sages can dish out.


----------



## Turrin (May 31, 2015)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I think we've come to a consensus here, regarding strength: (I have absolutely zero idea how this thread blew up, but it is the Naruto Battledome )
> 
> Ā's regular striking power can be matched or even eclipsed by the Sages (see Jūgo vs. Ā's elbow compared to Jiraiya vs. Human Path/Yak), and his raw physical prowess is outperformed by Naruto's rhino-hurling power, but when he applies his speed to his strikes to an insane degree (just V2, mind you), or opt to utilize cutting techniques, he can substantially exceed what the Sages can dish out.



No I think at best his Max-Speed Strikes are around the Toad-Sages, and quite frankly that's being generous, as Ei has nowhere near the strength feats that the Sages have.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 1, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> The hachibi is not only one of the most powerful bijuu, but its ability to even use the whirlwind is due to it having multiple appendages.  None of the other bijuu have been implied to be able to replicate that feat, by your logic they'd all be massively inferior to the hachibi strength-wise.



kyuubi has 9 tails. and could casually replicate that feat. without trying. Kyuubi has been implied as a much stronger beast. its you who assumes he cant replicate such a simple feat. when a mini version of him just leaking chakra is causing shockwaves and craters



> If the biju were significantly stronger than SM Naruto, Naruto wouldn't be able to ragdoll yang Kurama, and gamabunta wouldn't be able to pin 100% Kurama or put up such resistance against Shukaku.



being able to lift kurama doesnt mean kurama isnt much stronger. what kind of logic is that? kurama weight doesnt change because he is much stronger than naruto. all naruto had to lift was kurama weight. btw kurama was tricked by a bunshin. kurama wasnt straight up overpowered. 


> You've given zero arguments for why Ei is stronger, and ignored my own arguments against that. * Piercing property of Ei's raiton cloak* *were shown* multiple times.  Just like the fact that a significant amount of the power of Ei's greatest hits come from the momentum of his shunshins rather than his raw physical strength.



A punches have been implied to kill KCm naruto who KCM implied to be much stronger than his SM version

A can use raiton to cut things. that has nothing to do with using RCM to boost his speed and power. which is why i ask what piercing properties? 



> Madara's arm didn't get pierced because madara is really durable, most likely because he's madara.




and jugo back is really durable as well?

A RCM has not been implied to cut or pierce. this doesnt mean he cannot use raiton to cut. i think people get that confused and for no reason as well.


----------



## ueharakk (Jun 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> kyuubi has 9 tails. and could casually replicate that feat. without trying. Kyuubi has been implied as a much stronger beast. its you who assumes he cant replicate such a simple feat. when a mini version of him just leaking chakra is causing shockwaves and craters


that's not what you have to argue.  You attributed that level of strength to 'the bijuu'.  That means you'd have to argue that ALL bijuu are capable of that.  Not only that, but the whole shockwave thing has been toned down as powerscale increases which is why KN6 doesn't produce shockwaves from hitting things or from just roaring, and why KCM Naruto and even BM Naruto don't produce shockwaves like KN3 did with just a wave of his hand.  




Icegaze said:


> being able to lift kurama doesnt mean kurama isnt much stronger. what kind of logic is that? kurama weight doesnt change because he is much stronger than naruto. all naruto had to lift was kurama weight. btw kurama was tricked by a bunshin. kurama wasnt straight up overpowered.


Obviously being able to lift Kurama when Kurama isn't knocked out and is able to resist means Kurama isn't much stronger.  If Kurama was much stronger than naruto, he'd pick naruto up with his tail and slam him into the water, not get lifted off the ground and thrown down.



Icegaze said:


> A punches have been implied to kill KCm naruto who KCM implied to be much stronger than his SM version
> 
> A can use raiton to cut things. that has nothing to do with using RCM to boost his speed and power. which is why i ask what piercing properties?


Ei's punches have never been implied to kill KCM Naruto.  Naruto never says anything about "if I take a clean hit, I'm screwed" nor does he say anything about Ei's punch "weighing a million pounds" despite that translation circulating around the internet.

*Bee was stopping Ei's hits without even moving,* even *KCM Naruto hardly moved once his feet hit the floor,* yet KCM Naruto took a clean hit to the face so powerful than* it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*  And naruto came out of that hit with almost no damage. So no, Ei's hits were never implied to be lethal.  

KCM Naruto was never ever implied to be physically stronger than SM Naruto, if anything, the opposite was implied when SM Naruto was the one who provided the strength to free Son Goku's spike while KCM Naruto was there just to send him the coordinates.

The scans I've given you show Ei's chakra cloak increases the piercing properties of his attacks which obviously means it increases the piercing power of his punches since it adds an edge to them. 



Icegaze said:


> and jugo back is really durable as well?


I have no idea what you're trying to say here.



Icegaze said:


> A RCM has not been implied to cut or pierce. this doesnt mean he cannot use raiton to cut. i think people get that confused and for no reason as well.


Surrounding something in raition chakra alone increases its penetrating properties, we've seen people like bee do this with his raiton swords, we've seen darui do this with his shuriken, we've seen sasuke and kakashi do this with their weapons and arms, we've seen Ei do this with his hands, why in the world wouldn't Ei's punch have increased penetrating properties when it's surrounded by the same cloak that increases the penetrating properties of his chops?  

There's no reason, and it obviously has been implied to cut and pierce when we saw Ei's arm go through juugo's shield and chest and we know the cloak increases the piercing power of his attacks.


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

ueharakk said:


> that's not what you have to argue.  You attributed that level of strength to 'the bijuu'.  That means you'd have to argue that ALL bijuu are capable of that.  Not only that, but the whole shockwave thing has been toned down as powerscale increases which is why KN6 doesn't produce shockwaves from hitting things or from just roaring, and why KCM Naruto and even BM Naruto don't produce shockwaves like KN3 did with just a wave of his hand.



i argue all bijuu using strength however they choose to apply it can pull that off. yes

the whole powerscale explanation is yours. and one i dont care for. kn4 producing shockwaves means if kyuubi wanted it could do the same with its finger. 



> Obviously being able to lift Kurama when Kurama isn't knocked out and is able to resist means Kurama isn't much stronger.  If Kurama was much stronger than naruto, he'd pick naruto up with his tail and slam him into the water, not get lifted off the ground and thrown down.



again kurama was blindsided. strength doesnt make u omnipotent. he didnt realize naruto had picked him up till it was too late 



> Ei's punches have never been implied to kill KCM Naruto.  Naruto never says anything about "if I take a clean hit, I'm screwed" nor does he say anything about Ei's punch "weighing a million pounds" despite that translation circulating around the internet.



ok feel free to tell me what he says then, because it is circulating for a reason. so unless u japanese and got the raws u gonna loose this argument 



> *Bee was stopping Ei's hits without even moving,* even *KCM Naruto hardly moved once his feet hit the floor,* yet KCM Naruto took a clean hit to the face so powerful than* it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*  And naruto came out of that hit with almost no damage. So no, Ei's hits were never implied to be lethal.



yh and i can show u bee using partial transformation to catch A fist. when A himself isnt movign. or A straight up tanking bee lariat in mid air. 
* it sent bee flying through the earth in a futile attempt to stop it.*

V1 A punch. notice how far back naruto goes after he hits the floor. 




> KCM Naruto was never ever implied to be physically stronger than SM Naruto, if anything, the opposite was implied when SM Naruto was the one who provided the strength to free Son Goku's spike while KCM Naruto was there just to send him the coordinates.



no he wasnt. he was just implied to be overall>>>>>> 

so if a guy like that is fearing death from A hit. a weaker opponent should be dying casually 



> The scans I've given you show Ei's chakra cloak increases the piercing properties of his attacks which obviously means it increases the piercing power of his punches since it adds an edge to them.



RCM doesnt increase piercing properties. if they did please explain why none of A techniques are described by the author as having any piercing effect. none what so ever are described in that way 

RCM boosts speed and power so he can hit harder. thats it





> I have no idea what you're trying to say here.



think harder 



> Surrounding something in raition chakra alone increases its penetrating properties, we've seen people like bee do this with his raiton swords, we've seen darui do this with his shuriken, we've seen sasuke and kakashi do this with their weapons and arms, we've seen Ei do this with his hands, why in the world wouldn't Ei's punch have increased penetrating properties when it's surrounded by the same cloak that increases the penetrating properties of his chops?



then show me where the DB says or A says in the manga that being cloaked increases his piercing properties. a single scan or statement please 

your statement implies all raiton have penetrative properties. you realize thats just not smart right

chidori nagashi cant penetrate shit if it tried its best,

futton gives cutting properties. kakuzu futon atsugi cant cut shit if it stood there to be cut 

being raiton doesnt equal oh it must have piercing properties. Thats not just silly, it doesnt go at all with how the author chose to describe a technique he invented. 



> There's no reason, and it obviously has been implied to cut and pierce when we saw Ei's arm go through juugo's shield and chest and we know the cloak increases the piercing power of his attacks.



A forced his arm through jugo shield 

unless u think a piercing attack like raikiri would have met with any resistance against that shield 

u have yet to show me the cloak increasing any properties or any statements from the manga or DB

A chopped his arm, his cloak was not activated. the technique he used has nothing to do with RCM

he can channel raiton to make it sharp. however that isnt at all what he uses RCM for

same way raikiri is meant to stab you. so its not like kakashi is going to be using raikiri to numb u. for example 

different techniques work different. raiton default doesnt just cut things unless its made to


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jun 4, 2015)

Naruto would win. He'd get stomped by v2 Ei though


----------



## Icegaze (Jun 4, 2015)

I still don't see how Naruto is more durable than hachibi horn or rib cage susanoo 
if A lands 1 or 2 blows max Naruto will be down for the count

I also don't think Naruto is more durable than jugo either


----------

