# Itachi vs Obito



## Kyu (Sep 7, 2014)

*Scenario I*

Healthy Itachi vs Defensive Kamui Obito

*Location:* Minato vs Obito
*Distance:* 10 meters
*Mindset:* IC to kill
*Intel:* Manga
*Conditions/Stipulations:*

No holds barred

*Scenario II*

Healthy Itachi vs Dual-Kamui Obito

*Location:* Uchiha Hideout
*Distance:* 10 meters
*Mindset:* IC to kill
*Intel:* Manga
*Conditions/Stipulations:*

Obito cant use _Izanagi_ or any _Susano'o_ variant.

*Scenario III*

Edo Itachi & EMS Sasuke vs Rinnegan Obito w/ Neo Paths+Gedo Mazo

*Location:* Naruto/Bee vs Neo Paths
*Distance:* 20 meters
*Mindset:* Bloodlusted
*Intel:* Manga
*Conditions/Stipulations:*

Neo Paths begin in base
Sauce can't use Legged _Susano'o_


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## Nikushimi (Sep 7, 2014)

Kyu said:


> *Scenario I*
> 
> Healthy Itachi vs Defensive Kamui Obito
> 
> ...



Itachi puts Obito in Izanami, and then puts him in the Totsuka gourd.



> *Scenario II*
> 
> Healthy Itachi vs Dual-Kamui Obito
> 
> ...



Obito with both Kamui should be able too warp too fast for Itachi. He probably wins via BFR by sending Itachi to Box World.



> *Scenario III*
> 
> Edo Itachi & EMS Sasuke vs Rinnegan Obito w/ Neo Paths+Gedo Mazo
> 
> ...



The Jinchuuriki get massacred with Amaterasu and sealed with the Totsuka Blade unless Obito actually fights alongside them, but there are canon doubts about his chakra capacity allowing that.

Going by how he fought in the manga, Obito would lose this; his pets would get wrecked and then he'd get tag-teamed himself. He probably falls prey to Izanami.


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## Trojan (Sep 7, 2014)

Obito is stronger than itachi, and itachi know(s) it...


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## Mercurial (Sep 7, 2014)

Obito wins every scenario low diff. Itachi can't counter defensive Kamui and can't survive double Kamui for sure.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 7, 2014)

I agree with Niku.

1st scenario is definitely Itachi's win. Even without Izanami Itachi'd stand a good chance.
2nd scenario can go eitherway, but probably Obito has the edge here.
Itachi & Sasuke massacre the jins in the 3rd scenario. Though I am not sure if they could still win if Obito is allowed to fight amongside his paths.


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## RedChidori (Sep 7, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi puts Obito in Izanami, and then puts him in the Totsuka gourd.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This .


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## Hachibi (Sep 7, 2014)

ItachiGetSolo'd.
Except in the third scenario depending if they manage to deal with the Edo Jin fast enough before they go Full Bijuu and only Sasuke could put a fight after that.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 7, 2014)

Itachi loses every scenario. I will not even address the last 2 scenarios just the first one.



Itachi can't hit Obito effectively. Izanami isn't being used, its OOC for Itachi and even Itachi says its not suitable in a regular battle and only meant to counter Izanagi. At worse Obtio can just outlast Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Sep 7, 2014)

MS Obito didn't know Itachi had the crow. Karasu clones can counter getting warped, and Itachi is smart enough to figure out what even Fu and torune could. With clones, genjutsu and MS me thinks he can beat out MS Obito High - extreme diff.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 8, 2014)

Obito wins all
Scenario 1 he outlasts with izanagi + kamui
Scenario 2 he has both ms
Scenario 3  he has rinnegan


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Itachi loses every scenario. I will not even address the last 2 scenarios just the first one.
> 
> 
> 
> Itachi can't hit Obito effectively. Izanami isn't being used, its OOC for Itachi and even Itachi says its not suitable in a regular battle and only meant to counter Izanagi. At worse Obtio can just outlast Itachi.



Its OOC for Itachi ? What do you base this on ?

He didn't say its not suitable in regular battle. He said it is risky to use in battle beause the opponent has a way out.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its OOC for Itachi ? What do you base this on ?


Yes as he will not use it unless he knows he must and this situation is highly different than the Kabuto fight where Itachi needed genjutsu to accomplish his goal and went in with that belief. For you to say its IC is ridiculous as he has only used it one time and that was as an Edo. Also it is genjutsu and theoretically if Obito is phasing then the chakra would go straight through Obito.



> He didn't say its not suitable in regular battle. He said it is risky to use in battle beause the opponent has a way out.


Yes and given that he is sacrificing an eye, its very very very risky. Its a last resort and even then its risky. 


Ok Itachi hits Obito with it...then what?...Obito breaks free immediately as he knows what his goals are and why they are what they are. Obito never lost himself, he has some of the strongest convictions that we've seen.




HEy Dr.WHite? How well did that work out for them two?...Oh Yea Obito tricked the fuck out of them, because he isn't an idiot.


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## Complete_Ownage (Sep 8, 2014)

Obito has been portrayed stronger then Obito since well forever...Ok when we got "series tobi"

Welcome to the manga


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Yes as he will not use it unless he knows he must and this situation is highly different than the Kabuto fight where Itachi needed genjutsu to accomplish his goal and went in with that belief. For you to say its IC is ridiculous as he has only used it one time and that was as an Edo. Also it is genjutsu and theoretically if Obito is phasing then the chakra would go straight through Obito.


The word you are looking for is "circumstantial." Something circumstantial doesn't mean it is OOC, the fact that Itachi used it means that it is IC for him to use it.

Izanami was developed to counter Izanagi. Itachi is facing a Izanagi user. Go figure.




> Yes and given that he is sacrificing an eye, its very very very risky. Its a last resort and even then its risky.


Itachi used it and knew its risks. So yeah, he can use it.



> Ok Itachi hits Obito with it...then what?...Obito breaks free immediately as he knows what his goals are and why they are what they are. Obito never lost himself, he has some of the strongest convictions that we've seen.


Obito was TNJ material broski. And in a way he was TNJ'd and later on became a good guy.

You might have missed this page : _hair._
Obito and Kabuto parallel is uncanny.

Obito gets hit with Izanami and he is done for.


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## StickaStick (Sep 8, 2014)

Izanami is interesting because in theory it should be incredibly easy to counter if you're facing it with knowledge (which Kabuto obviously lacked). You simply "acknowledge" your true self (or whatever the hell that means) at the start of the battle and it won't work. I also agree with IchLiebe that I don't think Itachi would risk loosing an eye under conditions where he could potentially win the match through others mean (i.e., his other haxx). To suggest so would imply that Single-MS Obito is so far removed from Alive-Itachi power wise that it would require him sacrificing one of his Mangekyō Sharingan on a risk chance, which I don't think is the case. 

BTW, Obito is technically a "good guy" now so that shit wouldn't work anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

Obito doesn't know Itachi has Izanami, so he won't try to acknowledge his true self @ the start of the battle(not sure if it'd work that way anyways).


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2014)

Obito is the one who taught itachi, of course he knows what itachi has. U_U

Not as if itachi can tough obito to begin with. lol


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## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Obito has been portrayed stronger then Obito since well forever...Ok when we got "series tobi"
> 
> Welcome to the manga



Most coherent post of 2014.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Obito is the one who taught itachi, of course he knows what itachi has. U_U
> 
> Not as if itachi can tough obito to begin with. lol



I highly doubt Obito, who was "keeping secrets" from Itachi, would teach Itachi a technique that counters his own.

Obito has done stupid shit but he ain't that stupid.


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2014)

let's assume for the sake of the argument that it's the case. Well, too bad Obito already realised that in the manga
and got over it, so izanami is useless either way.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> let's assume for the sake of the argument that it's the case. Well, too bad Obito already realised that in the manga
> and got over it, so izanami is useless either way.



Itachi & Izanami has 100% win ratio. Obito and Kamui on the other hand


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## Garcher (Sep 8, 2014)

Hussain said:


> Obito is stronger than itachi, and itachi know(s) it...



you are a joke 


Why are you even trying to seem serious


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## Trojan (Sep 8, 2014)

Aikuro said:


> you are a joke
> 
> 
> Why are you even trying to seem serious



Not sure if trolling, or just too stupid. 

obito said had itachi known his secrets he would have been dead...

the question is, does itachi know them? 

hint: No.

Not to mention his statement is about the exact situation, not in a fight where they are fighting directly against each other.


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## Turrin (Sep 8, 2014)

Itachi really can't hit MS-Obito, and if it's drawn out into a stamina contest MS-Obito wins due to dat Hashirama-DNA. So I don't really see how he can win. 

The second scenario is an ungodly stomp

The third scenario Itachi and Sasuke could probably beat Neo-Pain, but I don't see them having enough left over to face Rinnegan-Obito, afterwards.


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## Dr. White (Sep 8, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Itachi really can't hit MS-Obito, and if it's drawn out into a stamina contest MS-Obito wins due to dat Hashirama-DNA. So I don't really see how he can win.



Itachi can hit Obito. Obito has no way of dealing with Itachi's clone feinting skill. He can't risk warping a clone, and has no way to tell if what he is attacking will be a clone. Obito got caught off guard by Amaterasu before, and it can certainly happen again.

There is also the fact that if Itachi is about to get warped he can just simply summon Susano to stike Obito simultaneously like Gai did with his Nunchuku.

Honestly it can go either way.

Second scenario is close, but I favor the brothers. Amaterasu completely rapes all the paths and neither bro has to worry about MS strain here. Totsuka sword + Kagatsuchi also ensures the Bjuu don't come out, and then eventually it will be 2 v 1, and Obito's biggest help Izanagi, is countered.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can hit Obito. Obito has no way of dealing with Itachi's clone feinting skill. He can't risk warping a clone, and has no way to tell if what he is attacking will be a clone.



If it's really a problem, then he just won't warp. He'll wait until Itachi tires and roast him with that gigantic Katon.

I don't know how much of a problem it would be though, considering Obito didn't have many issues against two of the mos avid clone users in the Manga in Kakashi & Naruto. 



> Obito got caught off guard by Amaterasu before, and it can certainly happen again.



Obito would just phase through Amaterasu, like he did before..



> There is also the fact that if Itachi is about to get warped he can just simply summon Susano to stike Obito simultaneously like Gai did with his Nunchuku.



...which Obito would just phase through like every other counter-attack that wasn't Hiraishin-level speed.


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If it's really a problem, then he just won't warp. He'll wait until Itachi tires and roast him with that gigantic Katon.


Because Itachi is just gonna stand by and let that happen? With Itachi's casting speed he can engage Obito in CqC and simply swap a clone in his place (like he did vs Kabuto), attacking Obito from a blind spot. 

He also has the option of sneaking him with Koto, or using Tensha Fuin + his crow to utterly blindside Obito, if Obito just wants to give him time to dilly dally.



> I don't know how much of a problem it would be though, considering Obito didn't have many issues against two of the mos avid clone users in the Manga in Kakashi & Naruto.


When is the last time Naruto used clones for the purpose of feinting? Vs Kakuzu? His clone game (regarding deception) is not on Itachi's level, partially because of the intelligence gap, the other part being casting speed.

Kakashi is good, but in that fight he had no way of actually pressuring Obito without Gai and Naruto's help. It didn't help that the technique that allowed him to hang with said people was inhenrently countered by Obito's signature technique. Itachi doesn't face any of those problems vs 1 eyed Rinnengan Obito (without paths and limited to feats) let alone Ms Obito.





> Obito would just phase through Amaterasu, like he did before..


We don't know how Obito survived that. Seeing as he Kishi didn't just show us him phasing the flames off (which given that his clothes warp with him and the flames will be sticking to his clothes and skin) and instead had him deal with it in the shadows. Then he went on to say if he didn't keep secrets from Itachi he'd be dead. My bet is on Izanagi, as Kamui was his trumpcard and something we already sawy before, so it didn't make sense for kishi to offpanel and have tobi refer to it as a secret; which he then used as a trump card to beat Konan who studied Obito extensively only failing to know he had Izanagi.




> ...which Obito would just phase through like every other counter-attack that wasn't Hiraishin-level speed.


Uhm No? Obito's reaction speed is not Hirashin level so if he commits to warping or attacking a clone, and gets attacked from an angle he can't perceive in time, he is going to get hit. 

Hell even Torune was able to slighlty tag Obito. Itachi and his clones will outperform Fu and torune any day.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Because Itachi is just gonna stand by and let that happen? With Itachi's casting speed he can engage Obito in CqC and simply swap a clone in his place (like he did vs Kabuto), attacking Obito from a blind spot.



Obito is intangible until the .000etc.1 seconds he materializes to touch you. 

Itachi is not touching Obito with a clone trick when a three man gangbang attempt by KCM Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai only managed to scratch his mask. 



> When is the last time Naruto used clones for the purpose of feinting? Vs Kakuzu?



He played Pain like a fool like, five times with feints.



> Kakashi is good, but in that fight he had no way of actually pressuring Obito without Gai and Naruto's help.



Clones? Like you're saying Itachi would. Sure he doesn't have Itachi's hand speed, but blocking LOS works just as well.



> We don't know how Obito survived that. Seeing as he Kishi didn't just show us him phasing the flames off (which given that his clothes warp with him and the flames will be sticking to his clothes and skin) and instead had him deal with it in the shadows. Then he went on to say if he didn't keep secrets from Itachi he'd be dead. My bet is on Izanagi, as Kamui was his trumpcard and something we already sawy before, so it didn't make sense for kishi to offpanel and have tobi refer to it as a secret; which he then used as a trump card to beat Konan who studied Obito extensively only failing to know he had Izanagi.



An excerpt from Tobito's Databook entry:

_"No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are. Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, *keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu*, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air."_

This is obviously describing Kamui, so we do know how he survived it after all. 



> Uhm No? Obito's reaction speed is not Hirashin level so if he commits to warping or attacking a clone, and gets attacked from an angle he can't perceive in time, he is going to get hit.



What?

Obito committed to warping Naruto many times during their fight, and then Gai would come rushing in from above with his Nunchuk screaming at Obito's face, or Kakashi would throw a small Kunai through a rock with no forewarning, and Obito still lolphased.

Obviously attacking from blind spots did not work. Kakashi and Gai literally used Naruto as bait so Obito would become tangible and launched a _sneak attack_ and what happened?


lolphased.



> Hell even Torune was able to slighlty tag Obito. Itachi and his clones will outperform Fu and torune any day.



Torune was covered in poisonous bugs and Obito touched _him._

Torune was like the ultimate counter to Obito and still got murked.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> MS Obito didn't know Itachi had the crow. Karasu clones can counter getting warped, and Itachi is smart enough to figure out what even Fu and torune could. With clones, genjutsu and MS me thinks he can beat out MS Obito High - extreme diff.



Itachi knew Itachi had the crow, and he thought he couldn't possibly win in the history of ever.  I think Itachi is smart enough to know Itachi's chances, given that he hung around Obito for years learning about him.  

However, I always thought that if Itachi and Konan compared notes and combined arsenals, they could have taken Obito extreme diff with some kind of plan.


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Will respond to wall of text tomorrow.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> However, I always thought that if Itachi and Konan compared notes and combined arsenals, they could have taken Obito extreme diff with some kind of plan.


At the time Itachi died Konan didn't have a reason to turn against Obito. However, IIRC during the Obito flashback where he approaches Yahiko and others Konan shows some early animosity, so if Itachi ever found out that that used to be the case then he might have had angle from which to approach her with towards taking out Obito. Chances are though if Konan was approached this way she would have fed the information to Nagato + Obito that Itachi was trying to make a move and Itachi would have been subsequently taken care of.

If you're just throwing a hypothetical out there then yeah I agree.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito doesn't know Itachi has Izanami, so he won't try to acknowledge his true self @ the start of the battle(not sure if it'd work that way anyways).



Of course he knew he had Izanami. Even if you argue the fact that Itachi outright stated "Madara" (Obito) was his mentor (which he had no reason to lie about, but w/e), it would be hard to deny the fact that Obito knew Itachi was studying Uchiha lore and whatnot so the dots would have been incredibly easy to connect.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Of course he knew he had Izanami. .



Thats a generous assumption. Scans ?


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## The World (Sep 9, 2014)

Obito wins all three scenarios

scenario 1 with high difficulty and the rest are a cakewalk 

Where is your gawd now Itachi?


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi can hit Obito. Obito has no way of dealing with Itachi's clone feinting skill. He can't risk warping a clone, and has no way to tell if what he is attacking will be a clone. Obito got caught off guard by Amaterasu before, and it can certainly happen again.
> 
> There is also the fact that if Itachi is about to get warped he can just simply summon Susano to stike Obito simultaneously like Gai did with his Nunchuku.
> 
> Honestly it can go either way.


Problem with this is your coming up with strategies for Itachi based on the knowledge you as a reader have on Obito's capabilities. Itachi didn't have this knowledge and that's why Itachi could not defeat Obito.

If Itachi had knowledge of how Obito's Kamui works he could maybe set up some complex clone feint to get Obito to warp a clone, than hit Obito hard in the real world, forcing him to phase, while attacking his individual parts with his Bushin in Box-land. But that relies on meticulous knowledge of how Kamui works. It took Kakashi, whose smarter than Itachi and has Kamui himself, several chapters and the combined efforts of Gai/Naruto/himself, to figure out this strategy. It's not something Itachi can just figure out in 2 seconds and than proceed to shut down Kamui with it. 

Itachi doesn't know that Obito parts phase to a specific dimension when Obito becomes intangible. He doesn't know that anything Obito warps is sent to the same dimension. Or anything necessary to formulate this plan. 

Itachi would have, to get lucky enough to have Obito warp a clone. Than the clone would have to observe Obito's parts appearing in that dimension. Disperse itself and to give Itachi the intel. Than he'd need to get Obito to warp another clone. Than pressure Obito into warping individual parts for the clone to target. By the time he figures all of that out, if he is even lucky enough to have Obito warp two clones, he's already going to be exhausted. 

Than he still needs to deal with Izanagi. Which requires him to figure out Obito is using Izanagi, avoid the successive ambush w/ no knowledge. Than he has to last long enough against an immortal/indestructible Obito to set up two identical points to catch him with the illusion.

There is no way Itachi's stamina holds out that long, and this also necessitates that Obito never warps back into his dimension and deals with a mere clone, rendering that strategy ineffective. 

If Itachi had full knowledge this would be debatable, and I could see it going ether way, but Itachi lacked the knowledge necessary to do defeat Obito; and that's exactly what the manga indicates.


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## Rosi (Sep 9, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Obito has been portrayed stronger then Obito since well forever...Ok when we got "series tobi"
> 
> Welcome to the manga


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito doesn't know Itachi has Izanami, so he won't try to acknowledge his true self @ the start of the battle(not sure if it'd work that way anyways).



Obito was itachis sensai wouldn't he be the one to teach him that technique


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Obito is intangible until the .000etc.1 seconds he materializes to touch you.


Okay, don't sharingan users have an advantage in attempting to counter tobi than? Itachi's Susano activation takes about the same time. Obito won't know to Kamui if he's attack from a blindside and committing to a clone or deceived by genjutsu.



> Itachi is not touching Obito with a clone trick when a three man gangbang attempt by KCM Naruto, Kakashi, and Gai only managed to scratch his mask.


Flawed logic. Unless Obito has some feats of seeing through clones I don't wanna hear it. Even Kabuto with top tier sensing couldn't pick up Itachi's using clone feints, and attacking from a blindspot.

 Kakashi and Gai had just got done fighting paths/bjuu's and Naruto had just gotten done soloing the war. Naruto and Gai also didn't have the brains to figure out and counter Kamui. Hence why Kakashi (who couldn't contribute as much as Kyuubi Naruto and gated Gai physically) contributed mentally in order to give them the edge. 

Also once they figured out his weakness they did much more than "just scratch his mask". 




> He played Pain like a fool like, five times with feints.


I don't remember him feinting Pein with clones, I only remember Naruto using clone + Henge to trick Deva. Mind showing me the scans?





> Clones? Like you're saying Itachi would. Sure he doesn't have Itachi's hand speed, but blocking LOS works just as well.


Itachi's jutsu isn't fast enough to reach Obito if he falls for a feint. Itachi has Amaterasu and Susano activation, along with Genjutsu to threaten an offguard Obito, while Kakashi's main OHKO was Kamui, which Obito was a walking counter to.



An excerpt from Tobito's Databook entry:



> _"No one has a clue as to what Tobi-Madara's powers are._


_
I think this applies to his whole moveset, only a certain amount of dead people know Obito has Izanagi/Mokuton for example.




			Even before Akatsuki members, he never exerted them. In his rare battle happenstances, jutsu hardly leave any traces upon him. His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception, *keeps his body unscathed after Itachi's Amaterasu*, and apparently transcends space so he can vanish into thin air."
		
Click to expand...

_The fact that it implies Obito got off unscathed after being hit, implies Izanagi. For example if Kakashi pierced Obito, using Kamui wouldn't heal him. Obito was hit by amaterasu and IIRC uttered in Pain, only to come out unscathed. Which to me once again is more consistent with Izanagi, which is the much more secret technique.



> This is obviously describing Kamui, so we do know how he survived it after all.


See above. Why would Kishi off panel it and call it a secret if it was Kamui, something we saw him and Kakashi use before the incident. Not only have multiple people seen Kamui being used, but Itachi (who has extensive knowledge on Uchiha history/techniques) is implied to deduce Kamui upon meeting Obito, with his inferences as to how Obito was getting into the Shrine.

*Spoiler*: __ 







Not only does Itachi mentioning spying on Obito without his knowledge, and analyzing his movements, but even alludes to Obito being able to "slip" through the Uchiha defense. this coupled with them both slaying the clan, and being in the same organization as Itachi for years leads me to believe Itachi knew about Kamui.




> What?
> 
> Obito committed to warping Naruto many times during their fight, and then Gai would come rushing in from above with his Nunchuk screaming at Obito's face, or Kakashi would throw a small Kunai through a rock with no forewarning, and Obito still lolphased.
> 
> ...


They weren't doing it in the most discreet ways. Likewise attacks like genjutsu, amaterasu, and Susano are all marginally faster than everything you mentioned, and Itachi is smarter than 2 out of 3 of the people you mentioned.

Once again Itachi's clone feint on Kabuto puts his feint game on a whole new level. Kabuto literally had 3 methods of sensing, and could fight completely blind, yet couldn't detect the 2 separate bodies encroaching him, which allowed Itachi to initiate Izanami (which means Obito attacking clones, or warping them can be used as set up for the technique.) and injure Kabuto.

Obito doesn't have such sensing leisures, and if in a similar situation Itachi decided to use Amaterasu or Susano, than Tobi's chances of phasing through it depreciate. 




> Torune was covered in poisonous bugs and Obito touched _him._


It was implied Obito could have warped him without being injured, but because he was dealing with two opponents and slipped up on his reaction time.



> Torune was like the ultimate counter to Obito and still got murked.


That's usually what happens when a High Kage level ninja fights a one dimensional elite Jounin.

Kabuto was a perfect counter to genjutsu/clone feints, and he got convincingly beat with stipulations in his favor.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> Obito was itachis sensai wouldn't he be the one to teach him that technique



There is no evidence that Obito actually thought Itachi anything. Why would we assume that he thought him that ? 

Itachi called him "mentor and accomplice." And other than that reference, we got nothing on the subject.


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## crisler (Sep 9, 2014)

itachi uses kage bunshin quite a lot, and obito 'always' uses kamui even against fodders. itachi would figure out that obito is using some type of intangibility and teleportation ninjutsu, and having that much knowledge already is a huge deal when fighting against jutsus like kamui.

on the other hand, itachis' jutsus are rather instant, 1 chance attacks that has less to do with knowledge. the only time obito will find out about itachis' main weapons are when he uses it, and when he does, itachi won't use them again. why? because it's too chakra costly and he can't just spam it like ems users. (amaterasu tsukuyomi)

if obito belives he can deal with itachis genjutsu just fine and proceed to fight it, then he's gonna be heavily damaged by tsukuyomi. plus, we've seen that obito can't react fast enough against amaterasu (when obito met sasuke) and had to use probably izanagi to survive. 

lastly, susanoo is gonna be difficult for obito to face directly. so, while itachi can gain knowledge of obito easily, it's difficult for obito to do so because even if he does, those knowledge would be practically useless as itachi is likely to use it only once.

the key is to actually land a hit, which is the reason this won't be easy, but i'd still go with itachi. tsukuyomi is far too dangerous, especially because their opponents generally assume it's 'just another sharingan genjutsu' when it's actually not.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Okay, don't sharingan users have an advantage in attempting to counter tobi than? Itachi's Susano activation takes about the same time. Obito won't know to Kamui if he's attack from a blindside and committing to a clone or deceived by genjutsu.



Obito has Kamui'd through blindside attacks before, so what exactly is your basis for all of this?




> Also once they figured out his weakness they did much more than "just scratch his mask".



You completely misunderstood the point.

Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai knew the secret behind Obito's ability. Obito targeted Naruto, and Kakashi and Gai attacked from _blind spots_....and _failed._

Do you not get it? How are Itachi and his clone supposed to perform the _same exact strategy_ better than Naruto & Gai when _both_ are faster than 50% Itachi?



> I don't remember him feinting Pein with clones, I only remember Naruto using clone + Henge to trick Deva. Mind showing me the scans?



1
2
3
4
5



> I think this applies to his whole moveset, only a certain amount of dead people know Obito has Izanagi/Mokuton for example.



"Ability" is not plural. Therefore, it cannot be referring to his entire move-set.



> The fact that it implies Obito got off unscathed after being hit, implies Izanagi. For example if Kakashi pierced Obito, using Kamui wouldn't heal him. Obito was hit by amaterasu and IIRC uttered in Pain, only to come out unscathed. Which to me once again is more consistent with Izanagi, which is the much more secret technique.



No matter how much you want to believe otherwise, "manipulating *space* to vanish into thin air" obviously describes Kamui because Izanagi doesn't do that. 

He was uninjured because Amaterasu doesn't cause injury if it's only on you for a few seconds. 



> They weren't doing it in the most discreet ways. Likewise attacks like genjutsu, amaterasu, and Susano are all marginally faster than everything you mentioned, and Itachi is smarter than 2 out of 3 of the people you mentioned.



Obito can see through genjutsu, and using that to attack from a blind spot makes no sense.

Susano'o likewise is not faster than Gai, only it's formation speed is. Formation ≠ striking.



> Once again Itachi's clone feint on Kabuto puts his feint game on a whole new level. Kabuto literally had 3 methods of sensing, and could fight completely blind, yet couldn't detect the 2 separate bodies encroaching him, which allowed Itachi to initiate Izanami (which means Obito attacking clones, or warping them can be used as set up for the technique.) and injure Kabuto.



I don't understand. Kabuto did detect Itachi's follow up attack, he just failed to notice the actual clone creation. So will Obito.

It's just irrelevant, because Itachi isn't going to do any better than Gai or Kakashi did with a blind spot attack unless he uses Amaterasu, which Obito will just phase through.



> It was implied Obito could have warped him without being injured, but because he was dealing with two opponents and slipped up on his reaction time.



What.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence that Obito actually thought Itachi anything. Why would we assume that he thought him that ?
> 
> Itachi called him "mentor and accomplice." And other than that reference, we got nothing on the subject.



its safe to assume because he was his mentor he taught him some techniques but i see what youre saying. just speculation


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

Lord Aizen said:


> its safe to assume because he was his mentor he taught him some techniques but i see what youre saying. just speculation



Its a pretty baseless specualtion @ that.

Itachi and Obito don't share any techniques. They are people who weren't really fond of each other too, there is no evidence that they spent time together other than what we were shown.

And since Kishimoto never expanded on the subject, I am just going to brush it off as part of the bullshit Itachi was telling Sasuke to make him believe that he was the bad guy.

If anything, I'd think that it was Shisui that taught him Izanami or mentioned it so that Itachi could find more about it and learn it in the future.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> There is no evidence that Obito actually thought Itachi anything. *Why would we assume that he thought him that ?*
> 
> Itachi called him "mentor and accomplice." And other than that reference, we got nothing on the subject.


Because Obito knew all the Uchiha Kinjutsu. What exactly would you expect Obito to have taught Itachi?

My only question is why would Obito have taught Itachi anything when Itachi clearly wasn't on his side even from Day 1. Buy hey, I'm not about to argue against a direct manga canon statement with no underlying motives involved.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> What exactly would you expect Obito to have taught Itachi?


Nothing.
Why would I assume that he taught Itachi something ? 




> My only question is why would Obito have taught Itachi anything when Itachi clearly wasn't on his side even from Day 1.


Exactly.

Even thought Kakashi & Naruto were on the same side and were pretty close, Kakash didn't teach him anything. He was still his mentor though.



> Buy hey, I'm not about to argue against a direct manga canon statement with no underlying motives involved.



There is no direct manga statement that says Obito taught Itachi Izanami. So I am not sure what you are talking about.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nothing.
> Why would I assume that he taught Itachi something ?


Because he was his mentor.



> Even thought Kakashi & Naruto were on the same side and were pretty close, Kakash didn't teach him anything. He was still his mentor though.


Regardless it still signifies a certain kind of relationship. Under these circumstances I don't think Obito would have been teaching Itachi howto become a better ninja like Kakashi did with Naruto, so that eliminates one possibility on what exactly the mentorship entailed.  

At that point Uchiha Kinjutsu makes the most sense by far.



> There is no direct manga statement that says Obito taught Itachi Izanami. So I am not sure what you are talking about.


I'm referring to the statement he made that Madara (Obito) was his mentor.


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its a pretty baseless specualtion @ that.
> 
> Itachi and Obito don't share any techniques. They are people who weren't really fond of each other too, there is no evidence that they spent time together other than what we were shown.
> 
> ...



itachi said he was his mentor therefore obito had to of taught itachi something whether its jutsus, history of the uchiha or battle tactics etc so its not baseless. most likely it being the uchihas history and uchiha eye techniques.

he didnt need to expand on it no point really.

I dont see shisui having that type of knowledge or teaching itachi izanami at the age itachi was at.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Because he was his mentor.


That means Obito taught him some techniques, namely Izanami ? 
There are no dots to connect here, I am having trouble how  you arrived to that conclusion.



> Regardless it still signifies a certain kind of relationship.


The term relationship is pretty vague. 



> Under these circumstances I don't think Obito would have been teaching Itachi howto become a better ninja like Kakashi did with Naruto, so that eliminates one possibility on what exactly the mentorship entailed.


I agree with that, if anything Itachi'd teach him a thing or two.



> At that point Uchiha Kinjutsu makes the most sense by far.


Or maybe just Uchiha History ? How the clan was formed, why Madara did what he did etc ? 




> I'm referring to the statement he made that Madara (Obito) was his mentor.


Ok how does that connect with Izanami ? 




Lord Aizen said:


> itachi said he was his mentor therefore obito had to of taught itachi something whether its jutsus, history of the uchiha or battle tactics etc so its not baseless.


I didn't say Obito teaching Itachi something is baseless, I said Obito teaching him Izanami is baseless. I do think that Itachi has learned some part of Uchiha history from Obito at least.



> most likely it being the uchihas history and uchiha eye techniques.


Possibly.



> he didnt need to expand on it no point really.


I know, Kishimoto kinda low balled us with the whole Uchiha massacre thing. But still, anything regarding the interraction of Obito & Itachi is purely speculation @ this point.



> I dont see shisui having that type of knowledge or teaching itachi izanami at the age itachi was at.



Shisui was the strongest Genjutsu user of his time, and had access to the most haxxed MS genjutsu. 
I am pretty sure the guy knew a thing or two 



Seriously, you guys are making a huge leap. All we know is that, Itachi called Obito his mentor. And all of a sudden, that means Obito taught Itachi Izanami. Well no. It sadly doesn't, not even close.

Why would Obito teach Itachi anything that'd make him a bigger threat ? Let alone something as game changing as Izanami, which happens to be a convenient counter to his technique... 

Sorry bros, I am not buying it.
I don't think Obito taught Itachi anything "ninja" related. I think he told him about history of Uchiha and Madara's exploits.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

W/e. I do agree it's probably too ambiguous to say with any real certainty.  

Although your suggestion of him teaching Itachi about the clan history and Madara stuff doesn't even come close to representing a mentor-student relationship. Sounds like Obito's telling him bedtime stories actually


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## Bonly (Sep 9, 2014)

Obito sucks Itachi right on up to boxland or he getss close enough to finish him off with things like Mokuton or a giant Katon or something else of that nature.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 9, 2014)

Obito beats him in all three scenarios. 

Surviving against Minato immediately means any attempt to touch Obito is shit on from the start, so Izanami isn't a factor.

Beyond that, he warped through continuous attacks from Naruto, Kakashi and Gai. There is generally no way Itachi lays a pigment of his essence onto Obito's mass structure during this entire bout.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Buy hey, I'm not about to argue against a direct manga canon statement with no underlying motives involved.



Itachi didn't want Sasuke sympathizing with Obito, thus he called him his master. There was a motive in his speech of lies.​


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Sep 9, 2014)

Itachi does not have the moveset to beat obito it lacks specifics then tie in his lower stamina/physical stats and it's clear he lose. Izanami is useless since the basis for it to work is not in this match and besides that obito can kamui/avoid everything else. Susanoo is itachi best defense and it cannot stop kamui defense or offense really not seeing how he wins.

Scenario three itachi and sasuke get nuked while obito can just kamui and avoid all damage including friendly fire. Not even sure they can override obito's control on the beast so long as outer path binding is in play which shits on nagato's. Not to mention obito can use genjutsu to strengthen his control and fight off theirs. So long as they can't touch him they can't beat him.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2014)

1. Obito said if Itachi knew his secret, he'd die.

2. Itachi is smart and would learn his secret in battle.

3. Obito would die.

Hence Obito staying out of Akatsuki and keeping distance from Itachi.


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

DaVizWiz said:


> Obito beats him in all three scenarios.
> 
> Surviving against Minato immediately means any attempt to touch Obito is shit on from the start, so Izanami isn't a factor.
> 
> Beyond that, he warped through continuous attacks from Naruto, Kakashi and Gai. There is generally no way Itachi lays a pigment of his essence onto Obito's mass structure during this entire bout.



Too bad Itachi doesn't have to touch Obito to initiate the move, he can just simply get a clone killed.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

I think Obito simply didn't want to risk anything. Regardless of whether or not he could win, taking down one of the three strongest ninjas in the world (at that time, of course) isn't some simple feat.

Better safe than sorry.


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## Trojan (Sep 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> 1. Obito said if Itachi knew his secret, he'd die.
> 
> 2. Itachi is smart and would learn his secret in battle.
> 
> ...



1- itachi never did + he was talking about the trap.
2- itachi was with him over 10 years, and did not learn it. What makes you think he will learn it all of sudden in a battle?

3- He still can return from the afterlife via Kamui. 

4- itachi was only a pawn in obito's hand actually.


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## Sadgoob (Sep 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> 1- itachi never did + he was talking about the trap.



Not really seeing how. The trap was aimed at the Kamui-eye. Sasuke just shifted his eye at the last moment, allowing Obito to use Kamui. Obito was making a general statement about how dangerous Itachi would be with knowledge. 



Hussain said:


> 2- itachi was with him over 10 years, and did not learn it. What makes you think he will learn it all of sudden in a battle?



How could Itachi be around Obito for 10 years and not know about Kamui? Because he never fought Obito. Because Obito steered far clear of Itachi, even when it meant avoiding his own organization for years.



Hussain said:


> 4- itachi was only a pawn in obito's hand actually.



Not really. Obito said that Itachi was what was stopping him, and everything kick-started immediately after Itachi's death. Then Itachi came back and fucked it up for Obito by rescueing Naruto, Bee, and turning Sasuke and Orochimaru.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi didn't want Sasuke sympathizing with Obito, thus he called him his master. There was a motive in his speech of lies.​



Once Itachi confirmed "Madara" as his accomplice there was no reason for Sasuke to sympathize with him, so try again. 

Perhaps Itachi should have used stronger language considering Obito had no problem TnJ'ing Sasuke regardless?



Strategoob said:


> 1. Obito said if Itachi knew his secret, he'd die.


Do you understand what Obito meant by this?



> 2. Itachi is smart and would learn his secret in battle.


It took Kakashi (a batter battle tactician and strategist) a fair amount of time to figure it out with Naruto, Bee, and Gai's assistance.



> Hence Obito staying out of Akatsuki and keeping distance from Itachi.


lol


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## Trojan (Sep 9, 2014)

> How could Itachi be around Obito for 10 years and not know about Kamui?



because itachi is a denser.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Hussain said:


> because itachi is a denser.



Confirmed by BZ himself, aka Kaguya's will, aka the one who has "seen it all"


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Obito has Kamui'd through blindside attacks before, so what exactly is your basis for all of this?


The fact that Itachi will be much more efficient when blindsiding him.


You completely misunderstood the point.



> Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai knew the secret behind Obito's ability. Obito targeted Naruto, and Kakashi and Gai attacked from _blind spots_....and _failed._
> 
> Do you not get it? How are Itachi and his clone supposed to perform the _same exact strategy_ better than Naruto & Gai when _both_ are faster than 50% Itachi?


I just explained it to you. They did not know his secret they knew he could turn intangible but not by what means. Obviously they had a hard time hitting him with Taijutsu and such CqC moves that Gai and KCM Naruto specialize in, but once Kakashi applied knowledge they ended the fight. None of the moves they used are comparable to Amaterasu, Kotoamatsuki, and susano in speed or scope. 

You are also forgetting completely that Gai and Naruto are not Itachi and way more straightforward fighters. Obito knew Gai's position so attacking from above is a half assed blindside. Itachi's clone will be hidden, and Obito won't ever know if he's attacking the real Itachi, or not. Itachi can use Ama from range, so he doesn't have to approach Obito like those two were.

Obito was blindsided by Minato as well. by your logic he should have been able to Kamui himself as soon as he saw Minato disappear because it still took time for Minato to move his arm and slam Obito with a rasengan.




> 1
> 2
> 3
> 4
> 5



The first feat which for some reason you decide to list as two, is a henge feat more so than a clone feint. Naruto was using genjutsu to essentially lolgrope the paths.

The second one as said from Pain's mouth is a shadow shuriken jutsu.

The rest are Henge feats as well. Naruto gets his clone's close enough to successfully distract or perform a function to lead up to an attack. That isn't clone feinting which involves getting your opponent to commit to attacking a shadow clone so that you may not only attack from a physical blindside, but attack them at the moment in which they think they have one.





> "Ability" is not plural. Therefore, it cannot be referring to his entire move-set.


Yes but it can refer to his combat ability overall. e.i "His ability in basketball is amazing": "His ability to play guitar is amazing." Both of the aforementioned subjects require multiple skills to be qualitatively good in either, yet are referred to as an ability. 




> No matter how much you want to believe otherwise, "manipulating *space* to vanish into thin air" obviously describes Kamui because Izanagi doesn't do that.


Izanagi is a reality warper which def does involve manipulating space and making one vanish. Just saying. I agree that in the sentence you mentioned they are most likely talking about Kamui, but that doesn't rule out the whole paragraph refering to his overall ability. 



> He was uninjured because Amaterasu doesn't cause injury if it's only on you for a few seconds.


 This is false. The only instance of this is Madara (who had sensing and Preta so his feat is an outlier), and Karin. Karin is an uzumaki, Sasuke ut out his flames on her, and Kishi obviously wasn't gonna spend time showing us in depth injuries she sustained because it wasn't being used as an offensive means against her, just showing the situation was dangerous and Karin almost died.

When Amaterasu has been used offensively it immediately begins to sear the target; See, Hachibi, Cerberus, and Toad stomach (which Itachi burned a couple meter hole in before the esaphogus could enclose them).

Also lets us here you can see Obito gets hit in the upmost right panel.. The next panel is Obito full realizing he is being burned, you can clearly see SFX signs indicating he's burning.
The very next panel not only shows* the flame grow on him*, but shows him* audibly gasp in pain*.
After which (still on fire) we can see him slip into the shadows. He continues to groan for multiple panels ( 1, 2  ) before coming out completely unscathed including his shirt. (look at the bottom right panel)

Then we have again the fact that Obito refers to his secret ability being his means to survive Ama. I already gave you evidence suggesting Itachi knew about Kamui, as well as a shit ton of other people. No one at that time except Dead Madara knew he could use that technique which Konan found out the hard way.

When Obito gets hit he takes damage. By your logic Obito could have simply warped after being hit for a millisecond by Rasengan. Evidence that directly goes against your argument is that Obito was forced to take his arm off when touched for a second by torune, yet somehow Kamui dealt with amaterasu (which needs to be sealed, absorbed, or dispelled) despite hit harming him and staying on him for multiple panels?




> Obito can see through genjutsu, and using that to attack from a blind spot makes no sense.


Ok Rocky I didn't Uchiha are immune to genjutsu? (see Sasuke vs Danzo, Kakashi avoiding eye contact with Itachi, Sasuke layering Sasuke for the lulz). Even if he can alter his perception for a couple seconds that is all he needs to follow up with one of the MS Trio.

Even if you don't think Itachi's genjutsu game is good enough outside of Tsukuyomi, he still has Shisui's sharingan which tops all. Tobi has no knowledge on the crow IIRC.



> Susano'o likewise is not faster than Gai, only it's formation speed is. Formation ≠ striking.


Itachi showed he can form and strike at the same time.

Here Itachi shows the ability to form and cover sasuke
 Here immediately after being free'd from genjutsu, Itachi forms and holds the dagger to Orochimaru head.





> I don't understand. Kabuto did detect Itachi's follow up attack, he just failed to notice the actual clone creation. So will Obito.


His sensing failed to pick up two separate bodies of chakra, that whole time Itachi was coming up to him. The clone feint getting stabbed was the first point in Izanami, and his follow up was to distract Kabuto from figuring anything out and set up chain link 2. Itachi didn't let Sasuke throw shuriken with intent to kill, he clearly was not aiming to cut off Kabuto's head or gravely injure him 



> It's just irrelevant, because Itachi isn't going to do any better than Gai or Kakashi did with a blind spot attack unless he uses Amaterasu, which Obito will just phase through.


See above as to why this argument is terrible.





> What.


Obito said something along the lines that he was being sloppy, and that's the only reason he got touched. Meaning he is far below not getting hit with anything other than "Hirahsin level attacks".


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Izanagi requires activation before it goes into effect, so Obito would need to have activated it before Ama made contact. Yeah... 

It was obviously Kamui that saved him.

If Gai, Naruto's, and Kakashi's efforts weren't enough to blind side him than Itachi's won't be. The only time Obito has ever been canonically blindsided cleanly is off of a Hiraishin follow-through, which Itachi has no means of replicating in terms of speed and execution.


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> Izanagi requires activation before it goes into effect, so Obito would need to have activated it before Ama made contact. Yeah...


Da fuck? Karin was noticing Danzo's eyes closing after he died. Obito likewise had no idea Konan's explosions would exceed his own ability and used Izanagi, despite still being injured. Ama didn't kill him so he could have activated it at any time.

Kamui wouldn't have healed his burns, and as I evidenced Obito being touched for a second by Torune's bugs made him lose his arm. Amaterasu is similarly hard to deal with and remove, yet Obito came out unscathed despite being light ablaze for multiple panels (a feat Obito's Kamui has never shown)



> It was obviously Kamui that saved him.


Nice counter argument. How about you read up on how to debate and then come back when you get better. You aren't even inconspicuous about your Itachi bias, so at this point it's just sad.

We can start by showing me these feats of Kamui protecting Obito from an attack that has already hit him (and likewise is as hard to deal with as Amaterasu), and then show me where Obito has healed from using Kamui.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

If Izanagi had been activated proceeding the black flames making contact with him they wouldn't have been "healed" as that damage would already have been set into "reality". 

Rocky gave you a databook entry that clearly refers to Kamui (_No one has a clue as to what *Tobi-Madara's* powers are_; Izanagi is an Uchiha Kinjutsu not exclusive to any particular individual) and you're sitting here in denial at the fact. And I'm the one showing bias


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

The Format said:


> If Izanagi had been activated proceeding the black flames making contact with him they wouldn't have been "healed" as that damage would already have been set into "reality".


FUCK ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT?
Let me try to make it clear for you.
-Obito makes eye contact with Sauce activating Itachi's seal.
-Obito gets hit with Amaterasu and drops his mask.
-It spread on him and starts burning him prompting him to scream in pain.
-He hurls over into the darkness screaming.
-He activates Izanagi prompting queitness.
-He comes out unscathed.

Unless he for some reason decided to Kamui to his dimesnion and seal amaterasu there while switching his clothes. I don't see how what happened is at all consistent with Kamui.

By your logic we wouldn't have seen Danzo get crushed and impaled before reappearing as the damage would have already set in. The fact that Karin saw his eyes close (which signifies release of the jutsu) post mortem also adds to the fact.

Rocky gave you a databook entry that clearly refers to Kamui (_No one has a clue as to what *Tobi-Madara's* powers are_; Izanagi is an Uchiha Kinjutsu not exclusive to any particular individual) and you're sitting here in denial at the fact. And I'm the one showing bias 

so how about instead of hiding under his scrotum, you come out and give your counter argument towards my response to him?


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## Turrin (Sep 9, 2014)

Or Obito just warped away the black flames before they burned through his clothing. It wouldn't be the first time that Amaterasu's burning speed was inconsistent as fuck.


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## StickaStick (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White, first of all, you might want to calm down because it isn't that serious.



> By your logic we wouldn't have seen Danzo get crushed and impaled before reappearing as the damage would have already set in. The fact that Karin saw his eyes close (which signifies release of the jutsu) post mortem also adds to the fact.


Not sure I follow. The jutsu was already in effect at this point. Once he actually dies then the eye has been exhausted (if its timer doesn't run out first). If he had been killed while Izanagi wasn't active then, obviously, he wouldn't have been able to come back. As would have been the case if Danzo had been killed after kia'ing it after Sasuke was immobilized. If Obito had used Izanagi in reaction to the Tensha Fūin: Amaterasu any damage he received prior to activation would not have been erased.



> so how about instead of hiding under his scrotum, you come out and give your counter argument towards my response to him?


Pointing out your blatant bias after calling me out for bias = riding someone's scrotum


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## Dr. White (Sep 9, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Or Obito just warped away the black flames before they burned through his clothing. It wouldn't be the first time that Amaterasu's burning speed was inconsistent as fuck.



 even in the most inconsistent Amaterasu feat Karin's clothes got burned, and she was shown to have minor burns. They were also on fire for similar amounts of time. 

amaterasu has more going for it than against it. Cerberus (the FRS eating Dog), Toad Stomach Espohagus (which itself breathed fire), Hachibi (who tanked his own Bjuudama), burning katon from Sasuke in seconds, and turning Mukai Tensei/Kaguya Tensei into shit.

Obito has never shown ability to warp like yo are suggesting. Doesn't explain no injuries occuring. Your argument right now is that the laws of physics suspended completely and a katon burning jutsu that was on Obito for panels didn't scratch him.


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## Rocky (Sep 9, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> The fact that Itachi will be much more efficient when blindsiding him.



Based on _what?_

How exactly is Itachi going to top striking Obito the _exact moment_ he goes to warp somebody, which is _exactly_ what Gai did?



> None of the moves they used are comparable to Amaterasu, Kotoamatsuki, and susano in speed or scope.



I address Amaterasu later, Sasuke fight Itachi doesn't have access to Koto Amatsukami as it's in Naruto (which is why Edo Madara can't access the Nine Tails), and an Itachi clone with Susano'o (if i can even use it) is no faster than Gai.



> You are also forgetting completely that Gai and Naruto are not Itachi and way more straightforward fighters. Obito knew Gai's position so attacking from above is a half assed blindside. Itachi's clone will be hidden, and Obito won't ever know if he's attacking the real Itachi, or not.



Obito knew Gai's position, yet Gai attacked from above and Obito was looking straight forward at Naruto?

ck

Unless Obito has eyes on the top of his head, then you're wrong. 

Btw, there's also Gai attacking Obito from behind when they first get there too.



> Obito was blindsided by Minato as well. by your logic he should have been able to Kamui himself as soon as he saw Minato disappear because it still took time for Minato to move his arm and slam Obito with a rasengan.



Obito didn't have the reflexes necessary to react to Minato's Hiraishin flank. Neither did fucking Raikage. Can Itachi's Susano'o blitz v2 Raikage?

Minato's blitz is faster than anything Itachi can do, so I don't see what the point is in bringing him up. He'll have the reflexes to react to Itachi.



> That isn't clone feinting which involves getting your opponent to commit to attacking a shadow clone so that you may not only attack from a physical blindside, but attack them at the moment in which they think they have one.



Same thing. Naruto used clone tactics to create openings, which is what a clone feint does. He fooled Pain into using Fūjutsu Kyūin on a clone to create an opening for Rasenshuriken. He fooled Pain into using Shinra Tensei on a clone to create an opening for Rasenshuriken. Etc etc.



> By your logic...



You have to realize that this isn't my opinion. When I read that entry, it describes Kamui. _Clearly._

Izanagi also couldn't have been used in response to Amaterasu, because it must be activated _prior_ to the unfortunate event...which is why Danzo didn't just lolneagate being stabbed by Sasuke. _He didn't have the chance._





> Ok Rocky I didn't Uchiha are immune to genjutsu? (see Sasuke vs Danzo, Kakashi avoiding eye contact with Itachi, Sasuke layering Sasuke for the lulz). Even if he can alter his perception for a couple seconds that is all he needs to follow up with one of the MS Trio.



Danzo is not an Uchiha, nor does he have a Sharingan in his uncovered eye. 

Kakashi is not an Uchiha, and therefore vulnerable to Tsukuyomi. 

Sasuke saw through Itachi's layered genjutsu. 



> His sensing failed to pick up two separate bodies of chakra, that whole time Itachi was coming up to him. The clone feint getting stabbed was the first point in Izanami, and his follow up was to distract Kabuto from figuring anything out and set up chain link 2. Itachi didn't let Sasuke throw shuriken with intent to kill, he clearly was not aiming to cut off Kabuto's head or gravely injure him



I already said that it doesn't matter. Itachi's clone creation can go unnoticed, because the follow up attack will get phased through, just like Gai's blind side.



> Obito said something along the lines that he was being sloppy, and that's the only reason he got touched. Meaning he is far below not getting hit with anything other than "Hirahsin level attacks".



Scan? 

Because Torune never touched him. Go ahead, show me the scan of Torune touching him.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Based on _what?_


-He is more intelligent and has better clone feinting feats.
-MS is more Hax and this means Itachi has chanes for OHKO's or atleast moderate to severe injury.


> How exactly is Itachi going to top striking Obito the _exact moment_ he goes to warp somebody, which is _exactly_ what Gai did?


Because Itachi has the sharingan which is gonna give him the direct trajectory of his hand. He, unlike Gai, can use genjutsu and clone feints and in general, his brain, to actually have a successful plan for hitting Obito.





> Sasuke fight Itachi doesn't have access to Koto Amatsukami as it's in Naruto (which is why Edo Madara can't access the Nine Tails), and an Itachi clone with Susano'o (if i can even use it) is no faster than Gai.


Healthy Itachi is pt. 1 Itachi. 




> Obito knew Gai's position, yet Gai attacked from above and Obito was looking straight forward at Naruto?
> 
> ck
> 
> Unless Obito has eyes on the top of his head, then you're wrong.


This is terrible logic and you know it Rocky. Unless Obito didn't see Gai up until that point he was aware gai was fighting him, of course he was keeping some sort of mental note on Gai. Itachi has done this multiple times (destroying Naruto's blindside clones and dodging Bee's attempt to slice him with Sam) are you saying Obito can't replicate such a feat without "eyes on his head?"




> Obito didn't have the reflexes necessary to react to Minato's Hiraishin flank. Neither did fucking Raikage. Can Itachi's Susano'o blitz v2 Raikage?


But your argument was Obito could Kamui within 100/th of a second. So I'm asking if his reactions were so great why he couldn't Kamui (with the same speed he uses to time his warps/dodges) once Minato dissapeared instead of just being like "shit". It shows if tobi commits to warping as such he is vulnerable to attacks.

Using Ei feat is disingenious. Minato barely made it with his skull intact, and timed it at the end of his V2 flicker leaving him defensless. It was more a finesse/reaction feat. Minato's mental reaction is quicker than Ei's flicker, likewise with Obito's Kamui. Itachi also has better reactions and since his MS moves don't real on his physical capabilites the comparison I was making is completely fair despite Itachi not being as fast as Hirashin.



> Minato's blitz is faster than anything Itachi can do, so I don't see what the point is in bringing him up. He'll have the reflexes to react to Itachi.


Minato's Hirashin depends on his mental speed to react. If Ei was a mach or two faster, Hirashin being instant wouldn't mean jack. So as long as Itachi s on Obito's reaction tier, and uses genjutsu or clones to gain an advantage, he can definitely hit Obito. Especially since as I showed Itachi can form Susano extremely quick in offensive positions.





> Same thing. Naruto used clone tactics to create openings,


Equivocation fallacy. Not all clone tactics are the same things. Clone feinting and Henge Feinting are two different things. One involves transforming into something inconspicuous to either deceptively pre empt another attack or get in close, while clone feinting invovles timing the substitution of yourself with a clone in so much that your opponent commits to killing "you" so you can attac with their guard down. Just because they can lead to the same things doesn't make them equal at all.






> Izanagi also couldn't have been used in response to Amaterasu, because it must be activated _prior_ to the unfortunate event...which is why Danzo didn't just lolneagate being stabbed by Sasuke. _He didn't have the chance._


Each time Danzo physically died and then was seen "sifting" back into reality. Karin also notes after the body dies the eye closes meaning it happens a priori to Izanagi being activated.

What's more is the only reason he couldn't use Izanagi is because he was out of sharingan's and Sasuke tricked him.



> Danzo is not an Uchiha, nor does he have a Sharingan in his uncovered eye.


He does have Hashi cells to help him use it more though.




> Sasuke saw through Itachi's layered genjutsu.


Because ya boi Itachi was letting him. Hence the reason he could layer him.





> I already said that it doesn't matter. Itachi's clone creation can go unnoticed, because the follow up attack will get phased through, just like Gai's blind side.


Yep because Gai's physical movement speed from afar is comparable to Amaterasu which spawns on a target, and Susano which I already showed you feats for?

You aren't understaning Itachi has a plethora of ways. Amaterasu would be in the case he fooled Obito like he did Kabuto. He could easily hide in the background and cast Amaterasu at the same time Obito commits to attacking or warping the clone. If Kabuto couldn't sense Itachi chillen in the background I don't see how Obito would.

Susano can be used by Itachi at extremely close range in which Itachi can attack with a clone, have it be killed, and attempt to hit Obito with susano (which has lower odds than Ama admittedly) 





> Scan?
> 
> Because Torune never touched him. Go ahead, show me the scan of Torune touching him.


Fu went to touch him, Obito warped him and got a piece of Torune during the skirmish. 

also why not address Obito taking his arm off in response to being Nano bugged?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> -He is more intelligent and has better clone feinting feats.
> -MS is more Hax and this means Itachi has chanes for OHKO's or atleast moderate to severe injury.



None of Itachi's clone teamwork has shown to be on the level of Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi when it comes to _timing_, which is what matters against Obito.



> Because Itachi has the sharingan which is gonna give him the direct trajectory of his hand. He, unlike Gai, can use genjutsu and clone feints and in general, his brain, to actually have a successful plan for hitting Obito.



Any plan Itachi conjures up will be designed to grant him an opening that Gai _already had_ due to Obito's focus on Naruto, _a third party._



> Healthy Itachi is pt. 1 Itachi.



My b dog. When did he get Shisui's eye? I don't remember. 



> This is terrible logic and you know it Rocky. Unless Obito didn't see Gai up until that point he was aware gai was fighting him, of course he was keeping some sort of mental note on Gai. Itachi has done this multiple times (destroying Naruto's blindside clones and dodging Bee's attempt to slice him with Sam) are you saying Obito can't replicate such a feat without "eyes on his head?"



...thank you for supporting my point. 

Merely knowing that Gai was his opponent does not just grant Obito the ability to predict when Gai will _actually engage him_ from an angle he cannot possibly see coming.

Ninja have some innate ability to react to attacks from their blind spots. I can't explain how, but there are many examples of it happening without explanation. 


*Spoiler*: _Feints and timing_ 





> But your argument was Obito could Kamui within 100/th of a second. So I'm asking if his reactions were so great why he couldn't Kamui (with the same speed he uses to time his warps/dodges) once Minato dissapeared instead of just being like "shit". It shows if tobi commits to warping as such he is vulnerable to attacks.



It probably happened too fast for him to perceive. Had Minato been a _hair_ slower, Obito would have phased through the Rasengan. Itachi isn't matching Minato's speed, though. 



> So as long as Itachi s on Obito's reaction tier, and uses genjutsu or clones to gain an advantage, he can definitely hit Obito.



But we know that isn't true, because Gai is on Obito's reflexive tier, and had an advantage given too him by KCM Naruto, and couldn't connect.  



> ...while clone feinting invovles timing the substitution of yourself with a clone in so much that your opponent commits to killing "you" so you can attac with their guard down.



Where exactly are you drawing this from. Clones are mainly used as distractions, but the only person I can recall "letting their guard down" after killing a clone was Tsunade against Madara.





*Spoiler*: _Izanagi & MS_ 





> Each time Danzo physically died and then was seen "sifting" back into reality. Karin also notes after the body dies the eye closes meaning it happens a priori to Izanagi being activated.
> 
> What's more is the only reason he couldn't use Izanagi is because he was out of sharingan's and Sasuke tricked him.



You didn't explain whatever you were trying to say very well.

Regardless, Izanagi must be "turned on" _prior_ to any damaged received, which is why Danzo had to keep it activated against Sasuke's onslaught, rather than only using it when he actually get's injured (which would save valuable time).

It's also why Danzo couldn't negate Sasuke's final Chidori Spear with Izanagi using Shisui's eye, _which Obito even comments on.
_



> He does have Hashi cells to help him use it more though. Because ya boi Itachi was letting him. Hence the reason he could layer him.



Hashirama's cells don't grant Danzo the ability to see through genjutsu with a Sharingan in his arm, and where was it said that Itachi _let_ Sasuke see through his illusions? I know Itachi didn't go balls to the wall, but that was like his opening move. I doubt Sauce had trouble with Itachi's Base genjutsu.



> Amaterasu and Susano'o



I think the Amaterasu strategy would land, don't get me wrong. It's just that Obito would suck them up or whatever he did.

As for Susano'o, I don't think Itachi can get into position and swing Susano'o's fist faster than Gai could get into position to swing his Nunchaku.





*Spoiler*: _Danzo Goons_ 





> Fu went to touch him, Obito warped him and got a piece of Torune during the skirmish. also why not address Obito taking his arm off in response to being Nano bugged?



That isn't what happened. Obito touched Torune to suck him up, and since Torune was covered in poison, Obito was infected.



Notice Tobito is touching _him_, not the other way around.

As for why he ripped his arm off, I mean, he couldn't exactly do that when he was hit with Amaterasu since it engulfed him almost instantly.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Turrin said:


> Or Obito just warped away the black flames before they burned through his clothing. It wouldn't be the first time that Amaterasu's burning speed was inconsistent as fuck.



Then why was he screaming in pain ? 

Imo, @ that point Kishimoto didn't have a clear idea on Obito's powers, and his STJ had properties of Izanagi. Thats why he implied that Obito escaped Amaterasu with his STJ powers in the databook.
But then, in the databook he also said "what was the power that allowed Madara to survive vote ?" Trying to make a link between Vote Madara and Current Obito's powers.
Which later on turned out to be Izanagi.

100% sure Obito escaped Amaterasu with Izanagi.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 10, 2014)

> You aren't understaning Itachi has a plethora of ways. Amaterasu would be in the case he fooled Obito like he did Kabuto. He could easily hide in the background and cast Amaterasu at the same time Obito commits to attacking or warping the clone.



Even if you hit Obito with Ameterasu he'll phase away and leave the fire behind.

Itachi with a crow clone. Okay, the clone engages Obito, and lets Itachi sit in the back and exploit the infinitesimal opening.  

The whole argument is pretty stupid when you consider that Naruto and Guy are both hyper fast and skilled, and together should be superior to a clone.  They also had an intelligent MS user hiding in the background to take advantage of opening.  His name was Kakashi.  His kamui is far faster than anything in Itachi's arsenal by a large margin, and far more suited to countering Obito, because _even when he phased_, they could send the attack to his dimension.  But that didn't work.  They even make frustrated remarks that a meticulously planned and executed 3-man super combo didn't touch him.  Itachi is smarter than Guy and Naruto, okay, but what does Guy and Naruto's intelligence mean when Kakashi was doing the thinking for them?  That .5 in intelligence over Kakashi is going to let 1 Itachi do what 3 more specialized people acting in tandem could not do in some 10 odd different attempts?


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## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> None of Itachi's clone teamwork has shown to be on the level of Naruto, Gai, and Kakashi when it comes to _timing_, which is what matters against Obito.


But Itachi's timing will be better than Gai's and Naruto's seeing as he has advantages they don't have, ala clone game, sharingan, and genjutsu.





> Any plan Itachi conjures up will be designed to grant him an opening that Gai _already had_ due to Obito's focus on Naruto, _a third party._


How are you just gonna claim this? Not all plans are equal, especially with the intelligent gap present. The thing about Itachi is he can do what Gai and Naruto were doing via MS/skills and still have his intelligence (fill in Kakashi here) to sift out a plan without using 3 people.




> My b dog. When did he get Shisui's eye? I don't remember.


Immediately after he died.




> ...thank you for supporting my point.
> 
> Merely knowing that Gai was his opponent does not just grant Obito the ability to predict when Gai will _actually engage him_ from an angle he cannot possibly see coming.


Okay but when you can go intangible and are a top tier person reacting to two taijutsu fighters at close range it isn't that hard to dodge them.

This is completely irrelevant to Itachi's clone game which once again which fools the enemy into attacking and takes advantage of that time frame in which the enemy thinks they have killed said user.



> Ninja have some innate ability to react to attacks from their blind spots. I can't explain how, but there are many examples of it happening without explanation.


It's called being aware of your surroundings and having good hearing/feeling. No sharingan kakashi was reacting to invisible Jonin, and I gave you feats of Itachi doing it. 




> It probably happened too fast for him to perceive. Had Minato been a _hair_ slower, Obito would have phased through the Rasengan. Itachi isn't matching Minato's speed, though.


Base Minato isn't >> Itachi in speed, or reactions. Once again Susano and Ama are both pendent on the users mental reaction like Hirashin. So if Obito goes to warp or injure a clone, and Itachi is watching from a safe place (like vs Kabuto) he'll be able to time is attacks so that they connect with Obito.





> But we know that isn't true, because Gai is on Obito's reflexive tier, and had an advantage given too him by KCM Naruto, and couldn't connect.


Ok and Gai still physically had to move to attack Obito. He was meters away in the air. Not comparable to being hit by Ama, which summons on the target, and Susano which forms literally out of no where.





> Where exactly are you drawing this from. Clones are mainly used as distractions, but the only person I can recall "letting their guard down" after killing a clone was Tsunade against Madara.


Reading the manga.
Kakashi used a clone to make Shouten Itachi commit to grabbing him and genjutsui'ing him, while Itachi was busy fucking with the clone, Naruto took the time to attack a blindside.

Kakashi clone feinted Deva and had him pull hin a clone using BT. Asura committed to killing it and it literally blew up in his face, which would have given Itachi a chance to blindside Deva with Raikiri as he was planning.

Itachi clone feinted Kabuto into killing a clone to set up Izanami.

Need more examples?







> Regardless, Izanagi must be "turned on" _prior_ to any damaged received, which is why Danzo had to keep it activated against Sasuke's onslaught, rather than only using it when he actually get's injured (which would save valuable time).


danzo used it reactively. Sasuke and Karin were watching him get bludgeoned to death which even prompted her to think it was a genjutsu because of how life like it is.

If the eyes on his arm were closing after he got injured it shows that Izanagi can be used before or after. In Danzo's case he had a ten minute period, but as Obito showed it could be activated on the fly.



> It's also why Danzo couldn't negate Sasuke's final Chidori Spear with Izanagi using Shisui's eye, _which Obito even comments on.
> _


I already explained to you that Danzo's ten minute time period was up and Sasuke used his genjutsu to show him 1 eye left. Hence why Danzo is being stabbed in the abdoment, he states he thinks he has won, because he was suspecting to be Izanagi'd. If he still had that one eye left he would have won. Not seeing your point.





> Hashirama's cells don't grant Danzo the ability to see through genjutsu with a Sharingan in his arm,


His eye sharingan (aka the strongest genjutsu casting sharingan) was fine, he used it on shinobi fodder before and that was the main reason Danzo believed he couldn't be genjutsu'd. Unless I am to believe his base self was touted as near MS genjutsu level. which I don't recall and given Oro's performance vs 3 tomoe is not likely.



> and where was it said that Itachi _let_ Sasuke see through his illusions? I know Itachi didn't go balls to the wall, but that was like his opening move. I doubt Sauce had trouble with Itachi's Base genjutsu.


Itachi was effortlessly spinning his brother in layers of genjutsu. Sasuke was actively using harmful genjutsu (showing images of stabbing Itachi) and Itachi was just cooling in his chair. The one with the ability to weave the other is obviously stronger.

It's the same thing Obito did to Kakashi when he implanted to idea of stabbing him, unless we are to believe kakashi 3 tomoe is = to Obito in genjutsu?





> I think the Amaterasu strategy would land, don't get me wrong. It's just that Obito would suck them up or whatever he did.


Obito has never shown the ability to warp things off of him. Like I said earlier if this was the case then he would have warped the bigs from Torune off of him, instead of resorting to tossing his arm.

when have we ever seen Obito get hit by a technique and simply just Kamui it away? Once again he would have done the samething with Rasengan (to mitigate the damage).



> As for Susano'o, I don't think Itachi can get into position and swing Susano'o's fist faster than Gai could get into position to swing his Nunchaku.


Susano formation speed over Gai's physical movement (of course not taking into consideration 8th gate). Once again if used deceptively it will be a different form of use than simply taijutsu to the face.



> That isn't what happened. Obito touched Torune to suck him up, and since Torune was covered in poison, Obito was infected.
> 
> 
> 
> Notice Tobito is touching _him_, not the other way around.


I concede about that part I thought I read him say he was slipping.



> As for why he ripped his arm off, I mean, he couldn't exactly do that when he was hit with Amaterasu since it engulfed him almost instantly.


That isn't my point. My point is if he could simply kamui away the Amaterasu flames (which stick to the target underwater even, and need to be sealed), which demonstratively were hurting/burning him, then why couldn't he had done the same with the nano bugs that were covering a way smaller surface area?

why did Kishi need to have Tobi escape into the shadow's if he was gonna show him using a jutsu he literally just used a chapter earlier?

Why wasn't Obito's clothes ripped or his arm burned?

these are the questions Kamui does no answer, but Izanagi (which was a secret jutsu neither we the readers of anyone else knew about) the "secret" Obito kept.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> But Itachi's timing will be better than Gai's and Naruto's seeing as he has advantages they don't have, ala clone game, sharingan, and genjutsu.



_"The whole argument is pretty stupid when you consider that Naruto and Guy are both hyper fast and skilled, and together should be superior to a clone. They also had an intelligent MS user hiding in the background to take advantage of opening. His name was Kakashi. His kamui is far faster than anything in Itachi's arsenal by a large margin, and far more suited to countering Obito, because even when he phased, they could send the attack to his dimension. But that didn't work. They even make frustrated remarks that a meticulously planned and executed 3-man super combo didn't touch him. Itachi is smarter than Guy and Naruto, okay, but what does Guy and Naruto's intelligence mean when Kakashi was doing the thinking for them? That .5 in intelligence over Kakashi is going to let 1 Itachi do what 3 more specialized people acting in tandem could not do in some 10 odd different attempts?"_



> How are you just gonna claim this? Not all plans are equal, especially with the intelligent gap present. The thing about Itachi is he can do what Gai and Naruto were doing via MS/skills and still have his intelligence (fill in Kakashi here) to sift out a plan without using 3 people.



There is no intelligence gap; Kakashi was there. There is no plan Itachi can create that will give him a better opening than Gai had there...



> Immediately after he died.



...and when was it on recharge?



> Okay but when you can go intangible and are a top tier person reacting to two taijutsu fighters at close range it isn't that hard to dodge them.
> 
> This is completely irrelevant to Itachi's clone game which once again which fools the enemy into attacking and takes advantage of that time frame in which the enemy thinks they have killed said user.



If you want to bring me a panel of Itachi's clone-feint blindside attacks succeeding, then maybe you'll sway me, because right now it isn't any better than what Gai tried against Obito using Naruto.



> Base Minato isn't >> Itachi in speed, or reactions. Once again Susano and Ama are both pendent on the users mental reaction like Hirashin. So if Obito goes to warp or injure a clone, and Itachi is watching from a safe place (like vs Kabuto) he'll be able to time is attacks so that they connect with Obito.



Minato with Hiraishin > Itachi. 

He may be able to do that with Amaterasu, not Susano'o though. That doesn't spawn on the target. 



> Ok and Gai still physically had to move to attack Obito. He was meters away in the air. Not comparable to being hit by Ama, which summons on the target, and Susano which forms literally out of no where.



If Itachi wants to attack Obito with Susano'o, he has to do the same exact thing.





> Need more examples?





Are you serious? Kakashi _grabbed_ Itachi to hold him in place for Naruto's attack, which won't work on Obito. Tendo _dodged_ the blind side attack after Kakashi's clone feint, while Asura couldn't dodge because of the paralysis. Kabuto dodged Itachi's blind side after his clone feint.

So yeah, how about some examples of it actually working, on somebody with Obito's level of reflexes nonetheless.  



> If the eyes on his arm were closing after he got injured it shows that Izanagi can be used before or after. In Danzo's case he had a ten minute period, but as Obito showed it could be activated on the fly.



...the eyes closing signifies the _end_ of Izanagi, not the activation. It must be _activated_ before damage is done.



> I already explained to you that Danzo's ten minute time period was up and Sasuke used his genjutsu to show him 1 eye left. Hence why Danzo is being stabbed in the abdoment, he states he thinks he has won, because he was suspecting to be Izanagi'd. If he still had that one eye left he would have won. Not seeing your point.



He had one eye left.

Have you forgotten about Shisui's eye?



> His eye sharingan (aka the strongest genjutsu casting sharingan) was fine, he used it on shinobi fodder before and that was the main reason Danzo believed he couldn't be genjutsu'd. Unless I am to believe his base self was touted as near MS genjutsu level. which I don't recall and given Oro's performance vs 3 tomoe is not likely.



Danzo's eye was covered up. 



> Itachi was effortlessly spinning his brother in layers of genjutsu. Sasuke was actively using harmful genjutsu (showing images of stabbing Itachi) and Itachi was just cooling in his chair. The one with the ability to weave the other is obviously stronger.



And then Sasuke stabbed Itachi through that chair.

They were having a genjutsu duel, as Zetsu noted.



> Obito has never shown the ability to warp things off of him. Like I said earlier if this was the case then he would have warped the bigs from Torune off of him, instead of resorting to tossing his arm.



The insects pretty much fused with his cells, so the technique may have been too complex to suck up. I guess continuous flames are different.



> Susano formation speed over Gai's physical movement (of course not taking into consideration 8th gate). Once again if used deceptively it will be a different form of use than simply taijutsu to the face.



Itachi still must move into close quarters in order to be in Susano'o's range, meaning that Obito will have time to activate Kamui.



> these are the questions Kamui does no answer, but Izanagi (which was a secret jutsu neither we the readers of anyone else knew about) the "secret" Obito kept.



You make sense, but fact of that matter is that Obito didn't use Izanagi before he was struck by Amaterasu, so it _couldn't_ have canceled the effects of the flames. It's impossible. Not debatable. Etc.

Then there's the Databook.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> There is no intelligence gap; Kakashi was there. There is no plan Itachi can create that will give him a better opening than Gai had there...


1. Kakashi is better at strategizing Itachi is better at simply analyzing things from the jump and countering, which Kishi made abundantly clear vs Nagato and Kabuto. Itachi not having the get relayed instruction and his ability to act right after thinking will make him a much more efficient fighter. 






> ...and when was it on recharge?


Shisui has never used or have been alluded to use Koto...He was going to but Danzo fucked that all up. Shisui gave him the eye to do with it as he pleased and seeing as the time from then until pt.1 isn't ten years, there is absolutely no reason to think the eye would be unusable.





> If you want to bring me a panel of Itachi's clone-feint blindside attacks succeeding, then maybe you'll sway me, because right now it isn't any better than what Gai tried against Obito using Naruto.


His clone feint on Kabuto did succeed. It was the first "touch" that Itachi used to start Izanami.

Everytime Itachi has feinted it has worked, his follow up attacks however have been blocked. e.g throwing Kunai at sasuke, blowing up Kurenai. Not only do the aformentioned situations share in common a non killing intent Itachi but they feature low ranked moves which still put said shinobi in danger (kakashi needed to save clueless kurenai, and Sasuke needed to use snake blocking.)





> Minato with Hiraishin > Itachi.


Okay but once again I am talking about Obito being unable to react to Minato's follow up attack which was dependant on his body speed. Hirashin doesn't make him move at instantaneous speeds it just transports him.

So If Itachi can replicate a sitatuion where Obito commits to attacking something, and times his counter attack right, then Obito gets hit.



> He may be able to do that with Amaterasu, not Susano'o though. That doesn't spawn on the target.


Okay? It spawns at lightning speeds, which are still enough to hit a distracted Obito. Hell Totsuka sword lol blitzed Orochimaru , despite standing right in front of him.




> If Itachi wants to attack Obito with Susano'o, he has to do the same exact thing.


Unless he feints him like Kabuto and is actually hiding somewhere close. If Obitos solidifies to touch the clone, Itachi can Susano blitz at that moment. 





> Are you serious? Kakashi _grabbed_ Itachi to hold him in place for Naruto's attack, which won't work on Obito. Tendo _dodged_ the blind side attack after Kakashi's clone feint, while Asura couldn't dodge because of the paralysis. Kabuto dodged Itachi's blind side after his clone feint.


No Kakashi feinted and doton'd to a safe place, because he figured Itachi would go for genjutsu. Itachi was counter grabbing him so he could force eye contact (unless you have proof that Kakashi was the only one instigating the hold and is physically superior to Itachi). Hence Itachi;s surprise in the genjutsu.

Deva had n clue where the real Kakashi was and was blinded. Kakashi is way faster then some pleeb ass Akamichi. Kakashi specifically is shown hiding with Raiir activated stating he had a back up plan.

Itachi did feint Kabuto.... He set up Izanami...

You seem to for some reason disregard the fact that Itachi wasn't trying to harm Kabuto, and was trying to inconspicuously set up there only hope at winning.



> So yeah, how about some examples of it actually working, on somebody with Obito's level of reflexes nonetheless.


As far as I'm concerned Sage Kabuto is on the same tier if not better than Obito...




> ...the eyes closing signifies the _end_ of Izanagi, not the activation. It must be _activated_ before damage is done.


When Itachi lost his light, the sharingan was sacrificed before Kabuto was put in a loop. It doesn't make sense for the eye to go out before the technique is used because the eye itself is what's being sacrificed.





> He had one eye left.
> 
> Have you forgotten about Shisui's eye?


He obviously wasn't gonna use that eye for whatever reason. Like Kishi spelled it out completely that Danzo was fooled into thinking he had time left on his Izanagi balance which he didn't. He had 10 minutes. 




> Danzo's eye was covered up.


That didn't stop him from using Koto.





> And then Sasuke stabbed Itachi through that chair.
> 
> They were having a genjutsu duel, as Zetsu noted.


Yeah and then Itachi lollooped him again with ease. Sasuke also thought he actually killed Itachi the first time (hinting that at first he didn't know). If Itachi was serious from the get, he would have taken advantage of the numerous times Sasuke thought he had Itachi qnd continued on to rape him.




> The insects pretty much fused with his cells, so the technique may have been too complex to suck up. I guess continuous flames are different.


The bugs don't fuse with his cells, they begin eating him at a nano level similar to C3. Amaterasu is extremely sticky, and burning him. Unless he pulled out some seal, and then lol Hashi healed while changing clothes then it was clear he Izanagi'd.





> Itachi still must move into close quarters in order to be in Susano'o's range, meaning that Obito will have time to activate Kamui.


Too bad his sword range is ridiculous and he happens to have long ranged Susano attacks. His shushin speed is also ridiculous so he can time it as to where he shushins next to him as Obito's attacking the clone, all the while prepping Susano. 





> You make sense, but fact of that matter is that Obito didn't use Izanagi before he was struck by Amaterasu, so it _couldn't_ have canceled the effects of the flames. It's impossible. Not debatable. Etc.


How do you know it wasn't Izanagi? I think I have done a good job at successfully giving you proof for Izanagi, and even more which disputes Kamui being used. the whole point goes to show Obito can be hit with Amaterasu if used deceivingly, and without Izanagi it will affect him.



> Then there's the Databook.


Which we know is infallible right 

Also didn't Grimm say the same "ability" was referenced as to how "Madara" survived the valley of the end?

Like your argument is literally "you make alot of sense, but this one vague databook statement is going to have to be superior than manga evidence."

Like when do we ever take databook evidence > the manga?


----------



## Lord Aizen (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> That means Obito taught him some techniques, namely Izanami ?
> There are no dots to connect here, I am having trouble how  you arrived to that conclusion.
> 
> 
> ...



thats why i said its merely speculation that itachi learned it from tobi. could or not be true.
Yea shisui had the most powerful genjutsu but i dont see him teaching itachi that technique either.
You do have a point but im guessing it couldve been to gain itachis trust or make him believe hes madara


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 10, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Even if you hit Obito with Ameterasu he'll phase away and leave the fire behind.
> 
> Itachi with a crow clone. Okay, the clone engages Obito, and lets Itachi sit in the back and exploit the infinitesimal opening.
> 
> The whole argument is pretty stupid when you consider that Naruto and Guy are both hyper fast and skilled, and together should be superior to a clone.  They also had an intelligent MS user hiding in the background to take advantage of opening.  His name was Kakashi.  His kamui is far faster than anything in Itachi's arsenal by a large margin, and far more suited to countering Obito, because _even when he phased_, they could send the attack to his dimension.  But that didn't work.  They even make frustrated remarks that a meticulously planned and executed 3-man super combo didn't touch him.  Itachi is smarter than Guy and Naruto, okay, but what does Guy and Naruto's intelligence mean when Kakashi was doing the thinking for them?  That .5 in intelligence over Kakashi is going to let 1 Itachi do what 3 more specialized people acting in tandem could not do in some 10 odd different attempts?



tobi cant phase away and leave the flames. the flames are on his body they will phase with him. just like how tobi clothes and mask will phase with him

it wouldnt take 10 attempts for itachi to figure out kamui it take one or two. When it comes to battle intelligence no one is above  itachi and minato. and it wont be 1 itachi it be 3-4 itachis as he uses shadow clones. itachi is smarter and develops counters to everything faster than anyone else. while everyone else panicks itachi has already come up with a counter.

im not saying itachi would beat tobi but the fight would be very close


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Kakashi is better at strategizing Itachi is better at simply analyzing things from the jump and countering, which Kishi made abundantly clear vs Nagato and Kabuto. Itachi not having the get relayed instruction and his ability to act right after thinking will make him a much more efficient fighter.



You're just spouting nonsense. I'll ask again;

How is Itachi going to create a _better_ opening than Gai & Kakashi had to hit him. Why don't you spell it out.



> Shisui has never used or have been alluded to use Koto...He was going to but Danzo fucked that all up. Shisui gave him the eye to do with it as he pleased and seeing as the time from then until pt.1 isn't ten years, there is absolutely no reason to think the eye would be unusable.



Why did he give it to Naruto instead of using it on Ssauke himself?



> Everytime Itachi has feinted it has worked, his follow up attacks however have been* blocked.*



Yep.



> So If Itachi can replicate a sitatuion where Obito commits to attacking something, and times his counter attack right, then Obito gets hit.



He can't. There is no plausible scenario in which Itachi can strike Obito during the miniscule interval of time he is tangible. Itachi's speed/timing isn't good enough, just like Gai's wasn't.



> Okay? It spawns at lightning speeds, which are still enough to hit a distracted Obito. Hell Totsuka sword lol blitzed Orochimaru , despite standing right in front of him.



I don't see any speed feats that have it spawning fast enough to strike Obito before he goes intangible. 



> Unless he feints him like Kabuto and is actually hiding somewhere close. If Obitos solidifies to touch the clone, Itachi can Susano blitz at that moment.



Then _this_ will happen.



> No Kakashi feinted and doton'd to a safe place, because he figured Itachi would go for genjutsu. Itachi was counter grabbing him so he could force eye contact (unless you have proof that Kakashi was the only one instigating the hold and is physically superior to Itachi).




*Spoiler*: __ 










> Kakashi is way faster then some pleeb ass Akamichi. Kakashi specifically is shown hiding with Raiir activated stating he had a back up plan.



lol, unless you can prove that Kakashi would have hit Tendo, then this doesn't fly.



> You seem to for some reason disregard the fact that Itachi wasn't trying to harm Kabuto, and was trying to inconspicuously set up there only hope at winning.



He still swung a sword at Kabuto's head, which was dodged.

You can't debate a fact.



> When Itachi lost his light, the sharingan was sacrificed before Kabuto was put in a loop. It doesn't make sense for the eye to go out before the technique is used because the eye itself is what's being sacrificed.



Itachi never used Izanagi.

When Obito used Izanagi, his eye shut _after_ he rewrote reality. 



> He obviously wasn't gonna use that eye for whatever reason. Like Kishi spelled it out completely that Danzo was fooled into thinking he had time left on his Izanagi balance which he didn't. He had 10 minutes.



10 minutes _and Shisui's eye_, which he _pondered_ using Izanagi for.

Then Sasuke stabs him, and Obito says he didn't have the chance.

Connect the dots.



> That didn't stop him from using Koto.



Making that the exception, not the norm. The Sharingan must be uncovered for it to work. 



> Yeah and then Itachi lollooped him again with ease.



Sasuke saw through that as well.

He even told Itachi so.



> The bugs don't fuse with his cells, they begin eating him at a nano level similar to C3. Amaterasu is extremely sticky, and burning him. Unless he pulled out some seal, and then lol Hashi healed while changing clothes then it was clear he Izanagi'd.



He couldn't have used Izanagi for the umpteeth time because it _must_ be activated before hand. His clothes weren't damaged for the same reason Madara's, A's, and Fodder Samurai's weren't. 

The only argument you have is the bugs, but that could have just been a choice of Obito's to pull off his arm. It sounds ridiculous, but I'm not about to just ignore facts like the Databook _and how Izanagi works._ 

Too bad his sword range is ridiculous and he happens to have long ranged Susano attacks. His shushin speed is also ridiculous so he can time it as to where he shushins next to him as Obito's attacking the clone, all the while prepping Susano. 



> How do you know it wasn't Izanagi?



I don't see him forming the hand signs to activate the technique before he's struck with the black flames. 



> Like your argument is literally "you make alot of sense, but this one vague databook statement is going to have to be superior than manga evidence."
> 
> Like when do we ever take databook evidence > the manga?



Evidence?

You don't have any evidence. You have theories; mere speculation. You have presented no _facts_ as to why Obito didn't use Kamui there. The Databook's description and the mechanics of Izanagi work against you.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Then why was he screaming in pain ?
> 
> Imo, @ that point Kishimoto didn't have a clear idea on Obito's powers, and his STJ had properties of Izanagi. Thats why he implied that Obito escaped Amaterasu with his STJ powers in the databook.
> But then, in the databook he also said "what was the power that allowed Madara to survive vote ?" Trying to make a link between Vote Madara and Current Obito's powers.
> ...


The issue here is that neither option quite fits the bill of what we would expect. However, one thing is for certain: it wasn't Izanagi that saved him. I won't bother mentioning why as the reasons for why have already been repeated Ad nauseam.

The problem people have with it being Kamui is the depiction of how it went down. Why wouldn't there be any burns/scars/etc. left. To be 100% honest it doesn't really matter. As per the Databook entry Kishi clearly dictates Kamui as the reason for him surviving the transcription seal Amaterasu. Latter on Kishi may have changed some things as far as how Kamui is _presented_, but that doesn't change the fact that he canonically survived Ama with Kamui; it just makes it a bit confusing as we can see evidenced by this discussion. This wouldn't be the first time either: recall when Obito first used Kamui-warp in-front of the Sasuke Retrial Team and did so by swooshing his arm around his body, clearly not consistent with how it would later by portrayed. But that doesn't change the mechanical aspects per se of how Kamui functions. Kishi just decide to start _presenting _it differently.

Concerning the reference to how he survived VoTE, here's the exact line:

_*And here is the biggest question of all*: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._

You can see as how it was written as kind of an aside almost. The fact that it's framed as a question unto itself should be a clear indicator that a different "ability" is being refereed to. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ask why he is alive when they just when over his ability (Kamui) in the preceding sentences.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You're just spouting nonsense. I'll ask again;
> 
> How is Itachi going to create a _better_ opening than Gai & Kakashi had to hit him. Why don't you spell it out.


I have been trying to explain to you how MS Itachi has all the tools neccessary to do what they did. He is the best at deciphering the enemy and countering their jutsu, like he did with Nagato, and like he did with Kabuto. 

Itachi makes support look like fodder. See Naruto, Killer Bee, and Itachi vs Nagato. Nagato fucking stomped them. Bee wasn't quick enough to realize his summons had eyes connecting his vision, and Naruto despite having full knowledge and fought each of his powers individually just completely mind blanked and tried to do shit like Rasengan to the face.

Sasuke was freaking out vs Kabuto and just wanted to slay him. Itachi protected from the initial no knowledge Hagueki, decided on the plan to get close to Kabuto, and ultimately beat him. Sasuke helped out twice in that fight, and the first time Itachi was only put in a situation to need help because he was protecting Sasuke. 

Itachi doesn't need to have the speed and power they have because Obito specifically specializes in negating shit like that. You can give him Tsunade and Ei, and he counters there arsenal so bad it isn't funny. Itachi's arsenal is way more suited to fight and catch Obito offguard, and he has the brains like Kakashi to see through his jutsu and counter it.




> Why did he give it to Naruto instead of using it on Ssauke himself?


Because Itachi wanted Sasuke to kill him so he could avenge the Uchiha clan. If all had gone right Kakashi would have spotted the Ama and picked him up, Sasuke would wake up in Konoha with a slap on the wrist and have had fufilled his number 1 dream in life.

Obito fucked that up. Itachi gave koto to Naruto because he saw how much Naruto cared about him, and decided that Koto would be his plan B, so that shit like exactly what happened (Obito warping Sasuke with the truth) would be countered.





> Yep.


So panels of Itachi with killing intent, and using MS with the follow up?





> He can't. There is no plausible scenario in which Itachi can strike Obito during the miniscule interval of time he is tangible. Itachi's speed/timing isn't good enough, just like Gai's wasn't.


You keep saying that without countering my evidence.




> I don't see any speed feats that have it spawning fast enough to strike Obito before he goes intangible.


The Oro mouth was literally a couple inches away from Itachi before he had control of his body and could counter which he did in time form an offesnive Susano form as I showed you. 

Itachi spawned V4 Susano before Kirin could touch ground, I think he'd be able to get up V1 much quicker as I showed.

You're still looking at this as if Itachi's just gonna come up and obviously do this in front of his face. He is gonna lead his bait.

Hell even the one time Itachi did just go for a blitz he did so to a freaking Sanin Orochimaru.

Also if Itachi does it while Obito is warping the clone he can't take advantage of the fact it takes longer for Obito to warp something that isn't himself.




> Then _this_ will happen.


Not if he's warping who he thinks is the real Itachi, but in fact the real Itachi had been watching and waiting with sharingan pre cog and chakra sight, to counter. 

MS Kakashi (who had Kamui for significantly less time) was able to snipe a Naruto clone before Obito could comprehend what happened. His reaction to his not infallible.





> *Spoiler*: __


What part of that refutes any of what I said?

Itachi was already grabbing Kakashi in a lock to use the genjutsu. The only reason Naruto hit is because Itachi didn't figure out he was feinted until it was too late. Kakashi just made his grip tighter, and KN0 Naruto proceeded to blitz.





> lol, unless you can prove that Kakashi would have hit Tendo, then this doesn't fly.


Why wouldn't he have been able to? That Tendo path explicitly stated Kakashi was a danger to him. He was also much weaker than when he fought with Naruto and Kyuubi Naruto.

Why wouldn't Kakashi have been able to Raikiri him?




> He still swung a sword at Kabuto's head, which was dodged.
> 
> You can't debate a fact.


I'm not arguing the fact of the actions, I'm arguing the meta around them which we the readers know but for some reason you won't accept. Itachi was making it seem as if he was attacking Kabuto, whilst secretly setting up steps one and two of Izanami. Itachi was not trying to lop his head off, as Kishi already gave two scenes prior to highlight. 

for all we know Itachi was aiming to just cut off his horns so that it would be a memorable event he could link in Kabuto's mind. Which he did.




> Itachi never used Izanagi.


Okay, Izanami is its twin jutsu and has the same effect. Itachi lost his light before the jutsu reality warped. 



> When Obito used Izanagi, his eye shut _after_ he rewrote reality.


IIRC we didn't see the exact moment Obito was like "shit I might need to use Izanagi here" so Kishi showing the eye go out could have been simply just to show us the light loss. 

But regardless it still doesn't cancel out Izanagi being how he survived it. 

If Obito used one Izanagi to survive 5 minutes of explosions, I don't see the problem with him activating it as soon as he saw Itachi's sharingan transcribe into Sasuke's non MS having eyes. What we do know is the flames were on him and burning him and somehow he came out of that experience alive. Amaterasu is not an insta kill so I don't see why it would have been impossible to cast it when he was on fire or the first panel we see where he shifts his focus to the left.





> 10 minutes _and Shisui's eye_, which he _pondered_ using Izanagi for.
> 
> Then Sasuke stabs him, and Obito says he didn't have the chance.
> 
> Connect the dots.


Danzo couldn't Izanagi because they eye he had thought was active was not active. Like putting an empty battery into your remote.

the panel you shows, shows us that Danzo was either gonna use genjutsu or Izanagi to escape, but hadn't made up his mind. Seeing as the injury sasuke gave him was fatal it would have been pointless to use his Shisui eye (which could have given him the insta win.) for Izanagi in that situation.





> Sasuke saw through that as well.
> 
> He even told Itachi so.


After he demanded Itachi told him everything, and even worked his blade around. Itachi was the one weaving him along, and wasn't worrying about using it for any other means besides talking with Sasuke. Sasuke had serious resolve their and was still noticeably behind.





> He couldn't have used Izanagi for the umpteeth time because it _must_ be activated before hand. His clothes weren't damaged for the same reason Madara's, A's, and Fodder Samurai's weren't.


-Madara's clothes were burning he just finessed out of them in time, and was wearing armor.
-Samurai's armor was burning, hence why he had to take it off. 
-Karin's cloak had a whole through it.
-Ei never got hit below the belt with Ama, cut his arm off before it could spread, and wasn't wearing a shirt.



> The only argument you have is the bugs, but that could have just been a choice of Obito's to pull off his arm. It sounds ridiculous, but I'm not about to just ignore facts like the Databook _and how Izanagi works._


Wha? Why not just lol Kamui them? They covered less surface area than Ama, yet he immediately lopped his arm off. Despite the fact that even Fu could soldier getting hit by them for a few seconds. The bugs similar to amaterasu will spread on you unless sealed or the casters dispels. Making the instances similar.

Too bad his sword range is ridiculous and he happens to have long ranged Susano attacks. His shushin speed is also ridiculous so he can time it as to where he shushins next to him as Obito's attacking the clone, all the while prepping Susano. 





> I don't see him forming the hand signs to activate the technique before he's struck with the black flames.


Lol Danzo was crushed by Susano and couldn't make a seal if he wanted to, yet Izanagi'd. Danzo was once blitzed and crushed by Susano before he could defend, no handseals. Danzo was stabbed by a Susano Arrow, made no seals, and sued Izanagi.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Concerning the reference to how he survived VoTE, here's the exact line:
> 
> _*And here is the biggest question of all*: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._
> 
> You can see as how it was written as kind of an aside almost. The fact that it's framed as a question unto itself should be a clear indicator that a different "ability" is being refereed to. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ask why he is alive when they just when over his ability (Kamui) in the preceding sentences.


An aside telling us Madara (Tobi) had a secret jutsu which kept him alive? Kinda like the one Madara (Tobi) refers to being the reason he survives the Ama attack?

Even right here we have a clear contradiction, as Danzo and Itachi also both knew about Izanagi. But I guess that means Itachi and Danzo don't know about Izanagi now because it's in the databook despite not making sense with the manga


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White, I'm not even sure it's worth bothering with you at this point, as you're clearly being obstinate about the issue. Not to mention the fact that for some reason you've become hostile towards me 

I already pointed out why it couldn't it couldn't have been Izanagi back on the previous page and you outright ignored me. I've pointed out that based on the structure of the text two different jutsu are clearly being referred to: 1) the one that is described as being his power, and 2) the one that was used to survive the VoTE. This you also apparently ignored. 

And it wasn't even Izanagi exactly but Tensha Fūin Izanagi, of which there is no canon proof Itachi or Dazno where aware of. But I'm sure you'll respond fighting this to the death with some answer based on how since Itachi knew Tensha Fūin Amaterasu he _must of_ been aware of Tensha Fūin Izanagi or some weak rationale like that despite, again, no evidence.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Itachi doesn't need to have the speed and power they have because Obito specifically specializes in negating shit like that. You can give him Tsunade and Ei, and he counters there arsenal so bad it isn't funny. Itachi's arsenal is way more suited to fight and catch Obito offguard, and he has the brains like Kakashi to see through his jutsu and counter it.



So lay it out.

Which steps does Itachi take to secure a better opening than Gai had, who struck Obito _the moment_ he went to touch Naruto.



> So panels of Itachi with killing intent, and using MS with the follow up?





> You keep saying that without countering my evidence.



There is no evidence that Itachi is as fast as Minato.

Or should I say, there is no evidence that he is faster than Gai.



> You're still looking at this as if Itachi's just gonna come up and obviously do this in front of his face. He is gonna lead his bait.



...and I keep telling you that Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai were trying to use that same strategy and failed.

Baiting Obito doesn't work.



> Itachi was already grabbing Kakashi in a lock to use the genjutsu. The only reason Naruto hit is because Itachi didn't figure out he was feinted until it was too late. Kakashi just made his grip tighter, and KN0 Naruto proceeded to blitz.



Naruto hit Itachi because Kakashi's clone grabbed him and held on. You can see the "grab" SFX in the panel.



> Why wouldn't Kakashi have been able to Raikiri him?



Because Tendo can dodge.



> I'm not arguing the fact of the actions, I'm arguing the meta around them which we the readers know but for some reason you won't accept.



Itachi likely knew that Kabuto would evade the blade, but that doesn't change "the fact of the actions."



> If Obito used one Izanagi to survive 5 minutes of explosions, I don't see the problem with him activating it as soon as he saw Itachi's sharingan transcribe into Sasuke's non MS having eyes.



Unless he activated it before the flames spawned on him, Izanagi would not remove them.

He would have just re-spawned with the flames on him, like he re-spawned with all of his prior injuries against Konan.



> The panel you shows, shows us that Danzo was either gonna use genjutsu or Izanagi to escape, but hadn't made up his mind. Seeing as the injury sasuke gave him was fatal it would have been pointless to use his Shisui eye (which could have given him the insta win.) for Izanagi in that situation.



The first stab was not fatal, which is why Danzo even contemplated using Shisui's eye for Izanagi in the first place. The Chidori Spear was, and Danzo didn't use Izanagi to save himself, and instead suicide bombed, because he _couldn't._ Obito says that much.



> After he demanded Itachi told him everything, and even worked his blade around. Itachi was the one weaving him along, and wasn't worrying about using it for any other means besides talking with Sasuke. Sasuke had serious resolve their and was still noticeably behind.



I reread the encounter it they appeared evenly matched. I have no idea what you are talking about.




> -Madara's clothes were burning he just finessed out of them in time, and was wearing armor.
> -Samurai's armor was burning, hence why he had to take it off.
> -Ei never got hit below the belt with Ama, cut his arm off before it could spread, and wasn't wearing a shirt.



By what you're saying, Madara's clothes should have burned to ashes in a second like the toad stomach, as well as the Samurai armor and Ei's armband.



> Wha? Why not just lol Kamui them?



Er, I dunno. What i do know is that Izanagi couldn't have been used to counter Amaterasu.



> Lol Danzo was crushed by Susano and couldn't make a seal if he wanted to, yet Izanagi'd. Danzo was once blitzed and crushed by Susano before he could defend, no handseals. Danzo was stabbed by a Susano Arrow, made no seals, and sued Izanagi.



Brahhhhh you serious doe? 

Danzo activated Izanagi by using _seals_ and began his match with Sauce. 

Then he Izanagi's through everything and paralyses him. Once that happens, Danzo releases the jutsu.

Sasuke breaks the seal and shoots an arrow at Danzo, who must block it with a tree because he _doesn't have time_ to use the seals for Izanagi.

Then he _reactivates it_ and continues the fuckery. 

Now you're saying Obito somehow used it in response to Amaterasu...


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Dr. White, I'm not even sure it's worth bothering with you at this point, as you're clearly being obstinate about the issue. Not to mention the fact that for some reason you've become hostile towards me


I just want you to stop ignoring my points and evidence. Obstinate is what you do with remarks like "Well while we don't know if Kamui is what he used to survive amaterasu, what we do know is he didn't use Izanagi". And then going to claim the ambiguous databook entry is ppositive evidence for an argument you just conceded ignorance upon.

I may keep arguing my points but I am not just claiming shit without argument to back them, and have conceded on a number of points to Rocky so far.

I'm not hostile towards you, that's just my personality. I respect Rocky alot as a poster but I'll throw some jabs his way mid debate. I just find you to be overly bias against Itachi which is evident in the many post I have seen from you about him both here and in the library.



> I already pointed out why it couldn't it couldn't have been Izanagi back on the previous page and you outright ignored me. I've pointed out that based on the structure of the text two different jutsu are clearly being referred to: 1) the one that is described as being his power, and 2) the one that was used to survive the VoTE. This you also apparently ignored.


I showed you a link between the direct databook statement and what Obito described his mysterious technique as. Furthermore the first databook entry is not 100% talking about Kamui which is a space time jutsu. Izanagi was also described as changing space and weaving oneself into reality from imagination. And I already gave my argument for ability referring to his overall combat prowess which in turn is based on his skills/techniques.



> And it wasn't even Izanagi exactly but Tensha Fūin Izanagi, of which there is no canon proof Itachi or Dazno where aware of.


Lol what? Tensha Fuin Izanagi is just using Tensha Fuin to cast Izanagi at a later time. Itachi obviously had info on Tensha Fuin seeing as he is the first on screen user of the technique, and danzo still knew about Izanagi, which is the core technique he sued to survive.



> But I'm sure you'll respond fighting this to the death with some answer based on how since Itachi knew Tensha Fūin Amaterasu he _must of_ been aware of Tensha Fūin Izanagi or some weak rationale like that despite, again, no evidence.


You are asserting that each Tensha Fuin use is a different jutsu but it's  not. You are just using 1 jutsu to cast another at a later time. It is 2 techniques Amaterasu and Tensha Fuin. 

So Itachi having knowledge on both techniques and using one on Obito himself (the only other time we saw Tensha Fuin? Izanagi.) means that only Madara knew about it>? Please tell me how Itachi having knowledge on the jutsu Madara used to survive doesn't contradict that?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> The issue here is that neither option quite fits the bill of what we would expect. However, one thing is for certain: it wasn't Izanagi that saved him. I won't bother mentioning why as the reasons for why have already been repeated Ad nauseam.
> 
> The problem people have with it being Kamui is the depiction of how it went down. Why wouldn't there be any burns/scars/etc. left. To be 100% honest it doesn't really matter. As per the Databook entry Kishi clearly dictates Kamui as the reason for him surviving the transcription seal Amaterasu. Latter on Kishi may have changed some things as far as how Kamui is _presented_, but that doesn't change the fact that he canonically survived Ama with Kamui; it just makes it a bit confusing as we can see evidenced by this discussion. This wouldn't be the first time either: recall when Obito first used Kamui-warp in-front of the Sasuke Retrial Team and did so by swooshing his arm around his body, clearly not consistent with how it would later by portrayed. But that doesn't change the mechanical aspects per se of how Kamui functions. Kishi just decide to start _presenting _it differently.



Clearly the databook indicates that it was Kamui, I have nothing against that. But I also believe that Kishimoto hadn't set boundaries for the jutsu at that point yet.

Kamui has no mechanic of allowing one to survive Amaterasu after the initial contact is made. Izanagi however can : _reactivates it_

If Obito's scene was cut right after the initial contact of the flames, I could perhaps buy the Kamui explanation, assume that he warped them quickly before they could even burn through his clothing.

But the flames spread through most of his upper body and he was screaming, clearly he was burning(and in pain) and he screamed a bit more in the darkness after he was completely silent. The last sound he made was "urgh." Painful screams turning into "urgh" indicates one thing. Death or passing out. _reactivates it_



> Concerning the reference to how he survived VoTE, here's the exact line:
> 
> _*And here is the biggest question of all*: why is Madara alive? Contemporary to Konoha's creation, the man supposed to have died at the Valley of the End lives to this day, his appearance unchanged. The jutsu that kept Madara alive, deceiving even Hashirama, the First Hokage, is known to Madara and him alone..._
> 
> You can see as how it was written as kind of an aside almost. The fact that it's framed as a question unto itself should be a clear indicator that a different "ability" is being refereed to. Otherwise, there would be no reason to ask why he is alive when they just when over his ability (Kamui) in the preceding sentences.



I should remind you that Obito's STJ wasn't labeled as "Kamui" at the time. We didn't even know it was a MS technique, as Obito was mostly seen using 3 tomoe. 
So at that time Kishimoto could have designed a broader range of abilities for Tobi/Madara's techniques and that "ability" could still be a part of it.

The link I am talking about is "cheating death." It was obvious that Madara cheated death @ Vote.
And Tobi cheated death when he was struck with Tensha Fuuin Amaterasu.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Kamui has no mechanic of allowing one to survive Amaterasu after the initial contact. Izanagi however can : _reactivates it_



Danzō hadn't released Izanagi at that point though, so the technique was _active._

That is a key point, because not having time to activate Izanagi was a _theme_ throughout the Danzō fight. It's the reason that he didn't release it against Susano'o to conserve his time, as well as the reason he had to block an arrow with a tree, rather than just tank it with the hax.

So tell me, how did Obito manage Izanagi against one of the faster jutsu in Amaterasu with almost no forewarning? Injuries sustained prior to the technique's activation remain, like this _cut_ on Danzō's arm, or Obito's injuries from Konan's suicide bombing. 

This means the flames would have _spawned with Obito_, as well as any burns on his clothing or injuries in general.

Izanagi wouldn't have helped him against Amaterasu.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Danzō hadn't released Izanagi at that point though, so the technique was _active._
> 
> That is a key point, because not having time to activate Izanagi was a _theme_ throughout the Danzō fight. It's the reason that he didn't release it against Susano'o to conserve his time, as well as the reason he had to block an arrow with a tree, rather than just tank it with the hax.
> 
> ...



A dojutsu user doesn't need to use seals to activate or deactivate Izanagi. Danzo was using the eyes on his arm as a medium to cast the technique, since they weren't connected to his brain via optic nerve he had to use seals to "activate them." It was a competely different case for him.

The moment Obito realized he got hit by Amaterasu he activated Izanagi with a thought.
Simple as that.
So when he "respawned" he came back unharmed.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

I would like the scan where that was explained.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I just want you to stop ignoring my points and evidence. Obstinate is what you do with remarks like "Well while we don't know if Kamui is what he used to survive amaterasu, what we do know is he didn't use Izanagi". And then going to claim the ambiguous databook entry is ppositive evidence for an argument you just conceded ignorance upon.


Fair enough; although I don't feel like I'm ignoring your points (at least intentionally). Perhaps I'm not being clear in how I address them.



> I just find you to be overly bias against Itachi which is evident in the many post I have seen from you about him both here and in the library.


Well, I can say I find you overly biased in favor of Itachi so I suppose the feeling in mutual.



> I showed you a link between the direct databook statement and what Obito described his mysterious technique as. Furthermore the first databook entry is not 100% talking about Kamui which is a space time jutsu. Izanagi was also described as changing space and weaving oneself into reality from imagination. And I already gave my argument for ability referring to his overall combat prowess which in turn is based on his skills/techniques.


But that's the thing: It can't be Izanagi. The ability is referred to as _Tobi-Madara's powers_. And as we know, Izanagi is not exclusive to any particular individual. This is was confirmed beyond a shadow of doubt during the Izanagi Wars. You also have this line:

_His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception_

Which is more attuned to the ability Kamui than it is Izanagi. Izanagi does not "[let] attacks fail to connect"--it merely "rewrites" the final result. In contrast, Kamui intangibility does allow attacks to fail to connect without exception. 



> Lol what? Tensha Fuin Izanagi is just using Tensha Fuin to cast Izanagi at a later time. Itachi obviously had info on Tensha Fuin seeing as he is the first on screen user of the technique, and danzo still knew about Izanagi, which is the core technique he sued to survive.
> 
> You are asserting that each Tensha Fuin use is a different jutsu but it's  not. You are just using 1 jutsu to cast another at a later time. It is 2 techniques Amaterasu and Tensha Fuin.
> 
> So Itachi having knowledge on both techniques and using one on Obito himself (the only other time we saw Tensha Fuin? Izanagi.) means that only Madara knew about it>?


Perhaps I worded it wrongly. Itachi having knowledge of Tensha Fuin and how to apply it to a single technique does not mean with any certainty that he was aware that it could be applied to Izanagi or how the seal would have to be written to implant Izanagi into it. Would I possibly give Itahi the benefit of the doubt here, yes; but there is a greater standards for proof, if you will, then simply assuming that would be the case, even given Itachi's genius.



> Please tell me how Itachi having knowledge on the jutsu Madara used to survive doesn't contradict that?


It doesn't necessarily. Itachi had knowledge on how to apply the transcription seal to Ama but we don't know about other techniques. This isn't, I don't think, a case of once you're applied one you've applied 'em all, even if the seal works with the same basic function.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> I would like the scan where that was explained.



I just explained it to you.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I just explained it to you.



Yes, but you pulled that out of your ass.

I want you to actually show me where the manga explains it so I know you didn't just make it up.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Yes, but you pulled that out of your ass.
> 
> I want you to actually show me where the manga explains it so I know you didn't just make it up.



Which part of my explanation is asspulled ? 

You can re-read it if you like and ask me which parts you didn't understand. I'll gladly go over them.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Here Danzo is "activating" Izanagi:
_cut_

Here he "deactivates" it via releasing/Kai'ing:
_cut_

We know he released it because Karin later comments that Danzo can now be killed:
_cut_

and before that Danzo mentions how there is "no time", referring to "reactivating" Izanagi.

Edit: and here we can see him activate it again:
_cut_


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Which part of my explanation is asspulled ?



The entire thing.



> You can re-read it if you like and ask me which parts you didn't understand. I'll gladly go over them.



Show me where it was stated that the reason Danzo needed seals was due to the Sharingan being in his arm. 

By the way, 3/10 dodging the question attempt.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Show me where it was stated that the reason Danzo needed seals was due to the Sharingan being in his arm.
> 
> By the way, 3/10 dodging the question attempt.



Why would they need to state it anywhere ? It is common sense.
Dojutsu don't require seals to use. Or is this news to you 


Danzo only used seals to cast it because those eyes aren't connected to his brain via optic nerve, so he can't use conventional dojutsu through them. 

I am not dodging anything btw, just can't understand why you can't make sense out of it.




The Format said:


> Here Danzo is "activating" Izanagi:
> _cut_
> 
> Here he "deactivates" it via releasing/Kai'ing:
> ...



I've read those parts. What does it have anything to do with what we are talking here ?


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why would they need to state it anywhere ? It is common sense.
> Dojutsu don't require seals to use. Or is this news to you



lol

"Dojutsu don't require seals" is not a fact. It just so happens that most don't. 



> Danzo only used seals to cast it because those eyes aren't connected to his brain via optic nerve, so he can't use conventional dojutsu through them.



Where was that stated.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> lol
> 
> "Dojutsu don't require seals" is not a fact. It just so happens that most don't.


Its actually a fact. 

Sharingan genjutsu, Amaterasu, Tsukiyomi, Kamui, Izanami, Izanagi(Obito & Madara didn't use handseals), Koto, Sasuke's STJ. I may be forgetting some, but no dojutsu require handseals.




> Where was that stated.



Eh you are just trolling now.

Do  you have a rebuttal, or have any say in the matter ? 
If not, please either concede, or ask for time to come up with an answer. 
Acting like a sore loser is pretty irritating.


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## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Its actually a fact.



Stated where. 



> Izanagi(Obito & Madara didn't use handseals).



Obito could have used his hand seals off panel, and Madara didn't use Izanagi traditionally.



> but no dojutsu require handseals



Izanagi and Rinne Tensei do.



> Do  you have a rebuttal, or have any say in the matter ?
> If not, please either concede, or ask for time to come up with an answer.
> Acting like a sore loser is pretty irritating.



You actually have no evidence. 

How deep inside your anus did you have to venture to discover this argument?


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Kishi has been wildly inconsistent with his characters using hand signs ever since the inception of PTI; hence why jutsus that should require hand signs have been shown being used without such on numerous occasions. Takes up too much panel space and makes incredible reactionary feats looks less possible.

Also, perhaps I'm mistaken, but what is Itachi doing here exactly?:
_cut_
_cut_


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Stated where.


Shown in the manga. Dojutsu are techniques cast through the eyes. They require no handseals, the eye is doing the casting.



> Obito could have used his hand seals off panel, and Madara didn't use Izanagi traditionally.


Lol'd.



> Izanagi and Rinne Tensei do.


Izanagi doesn't need them, when used *traditionally* 

I am not sure if 6 path techniques are traditional dojutsu, they don't seem eye related at all. 
Izanagi is a sharingan technique non-the-less. If  you are going to nitpick, lets say, "All sharingan techniques are cast without the aid of hand seals." That should do it 



> You actually have no evidence.


I've made an argument, evidence is the manga. You have no rebuttal or anything to say in the matter. I still don't understand why you are pushing it.



> How deep did you have to venture inside your anus to discover this argument?


Just used the fraction of the intelligence god has given me. 
You should try it.

Seriously though, didn't know you hated losing so much. I'll let you win next time. Good guy promise


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> Kishi has been wildly inconsistent with his characters using hand signs ever since the inception of PTI; hence why jutsus that should require hand signs have been shown being used without such on numerous occasions. Takes up too much panel space and makes incredible reactionary feats looks less possible.
> 
> Also, perhaps I'm mistaken, but what is Itachi doing here exactly?:
> _cut_
> _cut_



Baiting Sasuke into wasting his stamina and depleting his arsenal.

That big shuriken he tossed was his last. The tatoos are gone after that. _cut_

Seriously though. All this time you thought Amaterasu required handseals ? 

My fucking God.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Shown in the manga. Dojutsu are techniques cast through the eyes. They require no handseals, the eye is doing the casting.



We have Izanagi, a dojutsu, shown clearly requiring hand seals.

I've never seen somebody so adamant yet so wrong.



> Izanagi doesn't need them, when used *traditionally*



Danzo used it traditionally. Madara used Izanagi through Tensha Fuin, and he probably used hand seals when he set that up.



> I am not sure if 6 path techniques are traditional dojutsu, they don't seem eye related at all.



Did you really just say that the Rinnegan's Rinne Tensei is not a dojutsu....



> "All sharingan techniques are cast without the aid of hand seals." That should do it



Except that isn't true because Izanagi is a Sharingan technique. 



> I've made an argument, evidence is the manga. You have no rebuttal or anything to say in the matter. I still don't understand why you are pushing it.



Funny that when I ask for scans you cannot provide them.



> Just used the fraction of the intelligence god has given me.
> You should try it.



What intelligence.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 10, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Baiting Sasuke into wasting his stamina and depleting his arsenal.


Because Itachi knew definitely how Sasuke would respond next 

Also, BZ refers to them as "_*the *_seals" after he had just been discussing Ama with WZ.



> My fucking God.


Indeed


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> So lay it out.
> 
> Which steps does Itachi take to secure a better opening than Gai had, who struck Obito _the moment_ he went to touch Naruto.


-Itachi feels Obito out.
-Itachi figures his abilities and his weakness.
-Itachi clone feints making sure Obito doesn't take notice.
-Obito attacks or counterattacks the clone.
-At that moment using sharingan to track the movement of when Obito's hand will touch down, and from range use Amaterasu or Susano variant.






> There is no evidence that Itachi is as fast as Minato.
> 
> Or should I say, there is no evidence that he is faster than Gai.


For the umpteenth time, Itachi has reactions on par to Minato, and better than Gai. Which is what MS is dependant on. Not physical movement. It doesn't help that Itachi is one of the quickest characters in the manga either. Being able to dupe Bee over twice with speed.





> ...and I keep telling you that Kakashi, Naruto, and Gai were trying to use that same strategy and failed.


Naruto was not a clone. They don't have hax like Amaterasu or Susano, the closest thing they had was Kamui which functionally does nothing to Obito in of itself. If Kakashi and Obito had different dimensions and Obito could be affected by Kakashi's Kamui the fight would have went much different.



> Baiting Obito doesn't work.


It didn't work for to taijutsu user at close range with Obito being fully aware of who he was fighting. If Obito would have slayed a Kakashi clone, and then one of them tried I'd understand your point. But nothing about Gai's attack was stealthy at all, all they did was attack on two fronts.





> Naruto hit Itachi because Kakashi's clone grabbed him and held on. You can see the "grab" SFX in the panel.


Only made possible because Itachi grabbed him intially to genjutsu him.



> Because Tendo can dodge.


Cool and by that same one line simplistic logic, Kakashi can shushin, or better yet Kamui warp Tendo's head. Kamui is similar to Amaterasu. Would you really argue that A Kamui snipe wouldn't have ended a blinded deva there?

Nothing of this ditracts from my point of people using bushins to get there opponent to commit to attacking.




> Itachi likely knew that Kabuto would evade the blade, but that doesn't change "the fact of the actions."


Or Itachi swiped at him without killing intent, and likely held back on swinging as fast and accurate as he could. Once again dat sharingan does wonders.




> Unless he activated it before the flames spawned on him, Izanagi would not remove them.


Maybe he did? Maybe he activated them as soon as they touched down, or as soon as he saw Sasuke's 3 tomoe strangely turned into an MS. The only way for Obito to use Kamui to dodge amaterasu would be like raikage in that he dimension hopped before it spawned on him making the sharingan refocus on the target behind.



> He would have just re-spawned with the flames on him, like he re-spawned with all of his prior injuries against Konan.


But there was a signifigant time gap between from when he was intially injured by her, and when he actually was threatened enough to use Izanami. My point is Obito used Iznagi to cover a whole 5 mintues worth of Izanagi. Meaning he likely could just take his death by mass explosion and erase the whole event until PO stopped. 

If not then Obito would have sustained much more damage because he never had time to activate Izanagi in between the bombs going off and Kamui running out. Meaning somehow he just Izanagi'd the whole 5 minute event as opposed to Danzo's use which is limited in time and scope comparatively.





> The first stab was not fatal, which is why Danzo even contemplated using Shisui's eye for Izanagi in the first place. The Chidori Spear was, and Danzo didn't use Izanagi to save himself, and instead suicide bombed, because he _couldn't._ Obito says that much.


Okay I concede that point. 




> I reread the encounter it they appeared evenly matched. I have no idea what you are talking about.


I don't see how. Itachi was the one "leading the dance" so to speak, with 0 killing intent. Itachi has shown the capacity to raise the level of his genjutsu, so Sasuke was breaking some low level genjutsu cast by Itachi.





> By what you're saying, Madara's clothes should have burned to ashes in a second like the toad stomach, as well as the Samurai armor and Ei's armband.


It's not my fault Kishi is inconsistent. That doesn't take away from the fact it burned fire, the toad stomach, soloed cerberus after it ate an FRS or two, and made Hachibi cry like a girl. 

Once again a similar situation we see Karin's clothes completely burnt where Ama was. The amount on Obito was immense, and Obito physically cried out in pain meaning his skin was being burned, he even groaned after going intp the darkness which means from the time he dropped his mask, to the time he fell abck into the darkness he was being burned.

Yet his clothes don't even show a scratch and Kishi literally shows his whole backside. 





> Er, I dunno. What i do know is that Izanagi couldn't have been used to counter Amaterasu.


Unless Kishi just fucked up the mechanics because it happened prior to the danzo fight. Obito also being an Uchiha could have something to do with it. But once again when analyzing the effects of how Obito escaped it is much more consistent with Izanagi. I'm not gonna try to justify the means by which he did it because lol kishi. Like you honestly have me on that point, but at the same time I have you on the point of the end result which is Obito being completely unscathed, and Kishi mysteriously not showing how he escaped the flames, and having obito refer to it as a secret. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.




> Brahhhhh you serious doe?
> 
> Danzo activated Izanagi by using _seals_ and began his match with Sauce.
> 
> ...


you got me there, after reading the fight Danzo's does work like that. But once again Obito's use of Izanagi to me signififes Izanagi doesn't need to be done right away, and the fact it explains the scene more than Kamui.



> Now you're saying Obito somehow used it in response to Amaterasu...


The bottom line is that by my account him using Izanagi makes sense as to how he escaped the flames and consistent with Obito's description of the experience, and the way Kishi had things go down.

You do have the evidence of Izanagi not working that way for Danzo, but have already admitted that it makes no sense for Kamui to have been able to simply take away the flames especially since they already made contact with him.

So either Kishi was foreshadowing Obito's Izanagi use, and hadn't quite figured out how he would hash it out with Danzo using it extensively in a later fight, and didn't take into account that scene or Kishi gave Obito's Kamui some new powers, and said fuck it with art consistency after showing us Obito being englufed in the flames he just showcased burning katons and a forest, and being hot enough to cause updraughts; and decided to give him a new suit through the 4th wall.

I'm gonna go with the usual lolkishi


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

The Format said:


> But that's the thing: It can't be Izanagi. The ability is referred to as _Tobi-Madara's powers_.


While it may not have been neccassarily exclusive it could have been practically exclusive as in no one else simply knew how to use it, which until Danzo figured it out was true from what we know.




> _His ability lets attacks fail to connect without exception_


as I stated with rocky, ability is not exclusively singular ala "His ability to play guitar is amazing", guitar playing requires more than one skill but you refer to the overall skill as one ability even tough multiple contribute. So they can be describing multiple hax facets of Obito's arsenal. 



> Which is more attuned to the ability Kamui than it is Izanagi. Izanagi does not "[let] attacks fail to connect"--it merely "rewrites" the final result. In contrast, Kamui intangibility does allow attacks to fail to connect without exception.


I agree that line is most likely talking about Kamui but that line could also describe Izanagi.




> Itachi having knowledge of Tensha Fuin and how to apply it to a single technique does not mean with any certainty that he was aware that it could be applied to Izanagi or how the seal would have to be written to implant Izanagi into it.


Why not? Itachi didn't just wake up one day and figure out he could do that. It is a fuinjutsu technique that allows MS moves to be used later. Itachi just planned to have Amaterasu be used because it had the best chances to kill Obito in one strike, especially if it caught him before it could phase (which Itachi knew about), the only thin Itachi didn't know about that could have saved him is Izanagi.



> Would I possibly give Itahi the benefit of the doubt here, yes; but there is a greater standards for proof, if you will, then simply assuming that would be the case, even given Itachi's genius.


Fuinjutsu can be applied in multiple ways. I highly doubt Itachi thought it could only be applied to amaterasu. 



> It doesn't necessarily. Itachi had knowledge on how to apply the transcription seal to Ama but we don't know about other techniques. This isn't, I don't think, a case of once you're applied one you've applied 'em all, even if the seal works with the same basic function.


The whole point behind Tensha Fuin is using sharingan techniques in the future.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Okay, so I think the issue is clear.



Dr. White said:


> -At that moment using sharingan to track the movement of when Obito's hand will touch down, and from range use Amaterasu or Susano variant.



I've acknowledged that Amaterasu would work.

However, I don't think Itachi can form the Totsuka Blade and successfully strike Obito during the tangible interval. I'm sorry, but I simply don't see Clone Feint-Susano'o formation~Totsuka stab being as quick as Surprise Hiraishin warp~Rasengan.

I also feel that if Itachi popped out of hiding to strike Obito at the "exact" moment his hand touched down on the clone, Obito would see the real Itachi coming and go intangible again. 

Not to mention he probably knows of Itachi's proficiency in clone fuckery, so he may be more cautious with his touch warps. 



> If Obito would have slayed a Kakashi clone, and then one of them tried I'd understand your point. But nothing about Gai's attack was stealthy at all, all they did was attack on two fronts.



Okay, but what about when Gai struck at Obito from behind when they first got there? Obito hadn't yet been made aware of their presence.



> I'm not gonna try to justify the means by which he did it because lol kishi. Like you honestly have me on that point, but at the same time I have you on the point of the end result which is Obito being completely unscathed, and Kishi mysteriously not showing how he escaped the flames, and having obito refer to it as a secret. So we'll have to agree to disagree here.



I'm going to agree with you here on everything regarding what happened with Itachi's Amaterasu. The Format kinda said this already, but the way we know both jutsu to work, neither really could've been Obito's answer there.

So how about this. If Obito countered with Kamui, then he get's rid of the flames that way. If Obito countered with Izanagi, he does so, but Itachi counters with Izanami and should win the fight.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > However, I don't think Itachi can form the Totsuka Blade
> 
> 
> I don;t think he could get the totsuka up either because it would involved getting V4 out, and even though that is lightning speed, I don't see it happening.
> ...


----------



## Rocky (Sep 10, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> I don;t think he could get the totsuka up either because it would involved getting V4 out, and even though that is lightning speed, I don't see it happening. I was advocating for Ribcage strike from Itachi after his clone popped. Like what he did to Sasuke but sub in Susano at the moment Obito goes physical.



That would certainly be faster, but I question its ability to do anything to Obito's who's kind of a tank. The punches of Susano'o couldn't oneshot Mei, or Danzo, so I'm not certain it's going to be much of a bother for Tobi here. 

Multiple punches would ware him, yes, but I don't think Obito's going to get smacked by a clone trick more than once, twice (like Kabuto) maximum.

The fight depends on Amaterasu imo.



> Well as Konan said, if Obito commits to actually warping something (like he did with Minato) it takes him longer to recover from it to go intabgible. So if what he is warping is a clone, and Itachi comes out from the clones shadow like he did vs Sasuke and Kabuto, I think he'd have a chance.



That was if Obito actually began the warping process. If he did on a clone, he could be in trouble.



> True. But on the same note so was Kabuto, and had better means of detecting a feint than Obito does.



Agreed. 



> He obviously somehow sensed them, whether it have been air pressure, vibrations, or just good intuition/hearing.



Then that should help against Itachi's Susano'o attacks.



> That's fine. I honestly think Obito has decent chances of winning because of his hax and knowledge. I just feel portrayal wise Kishi has Itachi slightly above 1 MS obito. Before Itachi had Izanami/Edo feats I would call it an honest 50/50. But now I think he has the edge since Kishi conveniently gave him a counter.



I would tier them as:

Sick Itachi < Akatsuki Obito = Itachi < Edo Itachi < Double MS Obito < Rinnegan Obito & Neo Pein <<< God Obito.


----------



## Dr. White (Sep 10, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That would certainly be faster, but I question its ability to do anything to Obito's who's kind of a tank. The punches of Susano'o couldn't oneshot Mei, or Danzo, so I'm not certain it's going to be much of a bother for Tobi here.


I agree Obito could eat a punch but I was refering to him using the sword he used to slay Oro in Ribcage Mode. that would significantly hurt Obito whether he be sliced or stabbed.


> Multiple punches would ware him, yes, but I don't think Obito's going to get smacked by a clone trick more than once, twice (like Kabuto) maximum.
> 
> The fight depends on Amaterasu imo.


I agree clone feinting isn't something Itachi can do more than like 3 times maximum, but as I said if Obito gets stabbed or sliced by the blades the ripped through Senpo Hagaromo bones, he'll be in bd shape and in perfect shape for getting followed up on.




> That was if Obito actually began the warping process. If he did on a clone, he could be in trouble.


That's what I've been campaigning for. If Itachi could clone feint a sensor without them detecting his body, then I don't see how Obito would be able to tell what he was about to warp. Subsequenlty Itachi's "Inhuman Insight" and ability counter techniques doesn't do him very well seeing as surprise factor and mystery are two of Kamui's strongsuits.






> Then that should help against Itachi's Susano'o attacks.


True but that's why I stressed the clone feint because the whole idea is to have Obito actually start the process of warping or committing to piercing the clone with Mokuton or something along those lines.



I would tier them as:



> Sick Itachi < Akatsuki Obito = Itachi < Edo Itachi < Double MS Obito < Rinnegan Obito & Neo Pein <<< God Obito.


I agree with this although I would have sick Itachi <= Akatsuki Obito simply because he does have Izanami still and showed he could spam MS pretty decently for a near dead person. I'd still give it Obito him more time than not given the conditions of the fight.

Also I still don't see Koto restricted ck OP gotta change that.


----------



## StickaStick (Sep 11, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> While it may not have been neccassarily exclusive it could have been practically exclusive as in no one else simply knew how to use it, which until Danzo figured it out was true from what we know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah, I pretty much acknowledged the fact that there is sufficient ambiguity between what Obito could have used and what we actually saw that it does seem impossible to say; even if Kamui strikes me as the more likely option. 

As far as the Itachi stuff concerning Tensha Fuin, I don't really care to press the issue further and I'll even say you're right, even if I'm not sure I agree with the idea that Itachi would know about Obito's Kamui but not know/expect that "Madara" could use Izanagi . If anything this discussion has taught me that Obito better avoid Ama or I might have to check out of the debate


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 11, 2014)

I don't get how Itachi will hide his clone formation.  P1 Kakashi saw through his clone formation, and that was back when Itachi's seals were too fast for his sharingan to track.



> Obito has never shown the ability to warp things off of him. Like I said earlier if this was the case then he would have warped the bigs from Torune off of him, instead of resorting to tossing his arm.



NANObug infected every cell in his arm.  It's not like kamui would let him single out a bacterial infection in his body, and kamui that away without losing any healthy cells.  It's dumb to compare warping that, to warping the external fire off you.

Obito also has a fake arm.  His Hashi goop arm.  He can get replacements for those.  It's easy to just lop it off and get a new one.  Same thing happened when he got it lopped off by Konan.

Best example is Obito warping out of Shino's insect globe when he was covered by insect.  They didn't warp with him. 



Lord Aizen said:


> tobi cant phase away and leave the flames. the flames are on his body they will phase with him. just like how tobi clothes and mask will phase with him
> 
> it wouldnt take 10 attempts for itachi to figure out kamui it take one or two. When it comes to battle intelligence no one is above  itachi and minato. and it wont be 1 itachi it be 3-4 itachis as he uses shadow clones. itachi is smarter and develops counters to everything faster than anyone else. while everyone else panicks itachi has already come up with a counter.
> 
> im not saying itachi would beat tobi but the fight would be very close



They made 10 odd attempts with knowlege on his phasing and when he was open to attack.  10 attempts using the exact same plant Dr. White has outlined for Itachi here.  It's not a matter of being smarter.  Itachi can't execute the  exact same plan more smartly when it's the same plan.

Obito chooses what he warps.  Even down to which parts of his body he makes intangible.  You can see in the panel where Kakashi punched Obito in the kidney from kamuiverse, that it's just Obito's floating midsection he's hitting.

Best example is Obito warping out of Shino's insect globe when he was covered by insect.  They didn't warp with him.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> We have Izanagi, a dojutsu, shown clearly requiring hand seals.


It required handseals when Danzo wasn't casting it through the eyes which were on his arms.



> I've never seen somebody so adamant yet so wrong.


I have never seen someone who hated losing so much.



> Danzo used it traditionally.


Eyes anywhere other than your eye sockets is traditional ? 
Really ?



> Madara used Izanagi through Tensha Fuin, and he probably used hand seals when he set that up.


Itachi touched Sasuke's forehead to transfer it. I guess wireless transfer wasn't available @ the time 




> Did you really just say that the Rinnegan's Rinne Tensei is not a dojutsu....


No, I meant they aren't cast through the eyes like traditional sharingan dojutsu.



> Except that isn't true because Izanagi is a Sharingan technique.


Yes it is. Thats my point. All other sharingan dojutsu require no handseals, so why should Izanagi ? Its twin, Izanami doesn't require them either. Do you know why ? Because they are cast through the eyes.




> Funny that when I ask for scans you cannot provide them.


Thats like saying "provide me scans of YRS killing someone. If you can't then it means it can't kill anyone because I am not capable of using common sense."




> What intelligence.


I guess you are referring to yourself here, in which case I'll respond as "Exactly"


Look, I'll layout some facts :

Fact 1 : Sharingan dojutsu require no handseals.
Fact 2 : Danzo's sharingan's were implanted in his arm, they didn't function as eyes, as they weren't in danzo's eye sockets. So the only time we've seen a dojutsu require handseals was when the eyes weren't where they were supposed to be.
Fact 3 : We've seen Obito cast Izanagi without hand seals.

In light of these facts, how does my explanation make no sense ? 
And please, do not respond unless you have counter evidence, or a rebuttal that has an argument behind it.

"Show me scans" or "I can't use common sense" are responses I won't bother with.




The Format said:


> Because Itachi knew definitely how Sasuke would respond next


Yes.



> Also, BZ refers to them as "_*the *_seals" after he had just been discussing Ama with WZ.


Zetsu hasn't seen AMA before, so he didn't know what the fuck he was talking about. He assumed it'd be Amaterasu because the genjutsu battle was over.



> Indeed


Please tell me you'r just trolling. Please.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Sep 11, 2014)

I believe that datebook entry was written from the stand point off obito's abilities being hidden at the time.


author wasn't going to list a secret technique that he hadn't released in the manga yet.



as for the match its a close one i favor obito slighty more due to stamina advantage, itachi does have his chances at victory with izanami and clone trickery, but creating clones are very taxing so if that plan falls threw itachi will lose more times then not. I'm calling it


obito 6/10 times extreme difficulty


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It required handseals when Danzo wasn't casting it through the eyes which were on his arms.



Prove it.



> I have never seen someone who hated losing so much.



I haven't lost. You're just wrong.



> Eyes anywhere other than your eye sockets is traditional ?
> Really ?



Yes.



> Itachi touched Sasuke's forehead to transfer it. I guess wireless transfer wasn't available @ the time



Itachi never transferred Izanagi to Sasuke.



> No, I meant they aren't cast through the eyes like traditional sharingan dojutsu.



I don't know what this means. If you don't have a Rinnegan, you can't use Rinne Tensei, so it's obviously "cast through the eyes." 

If you mean it doesn't rely on visual focus, then neither does Susano'o.



> All other sharingan dojutsu require no handseals, so why should Izanagi ?



What kind of shitty logic is this? 

That is akin to claiming that Obama isn't black because all other presidents were white. 



> Thats like saying "provide me scans of YRS killing someone. If you can't then it means it can't kill anyone because I am not capable of using common sense."



What a terrible analogy. Assuming that YRS can kill because attacks with a weaker energy yield have killed is not a logical fallacy. 

That is not comparable to claiming that no dojutsu needs seals when there is actual evidence to the contrary and your "evidence" is based off coincidence. 



> Fact 1 : Sharingan dojutsu require no handseals.
> Fact 2 : Danzo's sharingan's were implanted in his arm, they didn't function as eyes, as they weren't in danzo's eye sockets. So the only time we've seen a dojutsu require handseals was when the eyes weren't where they were supposed to be.
> Fact 3 : We've seen Obito cast Izanagi without hand seals.



Fact 1 is not a fact. It's something you pulled out of your ass based on a coincidental pattern you noticed. Oh, and Tengai Shinsei requires hand seals too.

This is probably one of the worst arguments I have ever seen. When I ask you to prove the premise that "Sharingan dojutsu don't require seals," you say that they don't because none of them in the manga do. That's wrong, because Izanagi does, but _then_ you go and make up some bullshit reason as to why Izanagi requires seals for Danzo and claim that reason to be fact because "Sharingan dojutsu don't require seals," essentially assuming what you're trying to prove to be true. That is circular reasoning, cherry picking, etc.

Just stop. _Nothing_ was ever mentioned about the Sharingan having to be in one's eye socket in order to avoid hand seals. Itachi used Koto Amatsukami from a fucking crow without making seals.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Prove it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Dude like, are you really this dense or are you pretending to be just so you can wear me out and make me drop the argument ? 

Do you really think Danzo was seeing through the eyes in his arm ? Were they functional eyes ? 

Hand seals are a medium to cast jutsu, sort of like a trigger.
Sharingan dojutsu doesn't require it because the eye itself is the trigger. You channel the spell through your eye.
So yes, like all other dojutsu, Izanagi doesn't need handseals if it is used in a conventional way, aka used through a functional eye in your eye socket. 

And again, Danzo didn't have that option with those eyes on his arm, they weren't functioning as eyes, so he had to cast the jutsu through other means and the eyes were just the fuel. He had no control over the eye, so he had to activate and de activate the jutsu through his handseals.

Its pretty simple logic if you think about it.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Do you really think Danzo was seeing through the eyes in his arm ? Were they functional eyes?



1.) You do not need to see through an eye to use dojutsu from it.

2.) Danzo had some level of control over those arm-eyes as he was able to roll them.



> like all other dojutsu



So now we're back to all dojutsu.

I've already named three dojutsu that require hand seals. You have given no evidence as to why Izanagi cannot require hand seals.

"But other dojutsu techs don't require hand seals" is a shitty argument. 

Please stop.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> 1.) You do not need to see through an eye to use dojutsu from it.
> 
> 2.) Danzo had some level of control over those arm-eyes as he was able to roll them.



Or they were like rolling for the creepiness factor or twitching because of the muscle tissue on his arm.

Its like if they transplanted your  index finger to your buttcheek, it wouldn't function as a finger because it'd lack the bones and the muscle tissue to be able to do that. 

It is the same with Danzo's eyes. They can't function like a regular eye, they aren't connected to the brain via optic nerve, so danzo can't cast jutsu through them.




> So now we're back to all dojutsu.
> 
> I've already named three dojutsu that require hand seals. You have given no evidence as to why Izanagi cannot require hand seals.
> 
> ...



You keep saying Izanagi requires seals, but it only did in Danzo's case. 

And yes, it is a pretty solid argument, as Izanami doesn't require any handseals to cast.
So does Tsukiyomi, Amaterasu, Susano'o, Koto, Kagutschi, Sharingan genjutsu and Kamui.

Why would Izanagi be the outlier ? Your answer  : "Because Danzo used handseals." My answer :"In Danzo's case, he couldn't cast them through his eye, because he was only using the eyes implanted in his arm."

You are using the extreme case to show whats standart. Thats a wrong approach, and you know it.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 11, 2014)

Only on-panel usage of Izanagi was from Danzo. He used handseals. Obito and Madara used it off-panel. Se have one on-panel usage it was via handseals. There was no indication that Danzo's Izanagi was different from normal one - except for length. It is _possible_ that handseals are exclusive to him but considering all the evidence we have... Not very plausible imo. The nature of Izanagi is sacrificing the eye, it is not like other built-in techs that at best strain/damage the eye over time. Using hand seals for stuff like that makes more sense.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

This logic could be used to argue that Obama isn't black...

You: Obama is white. (Izanagi doesn't require seals)

Me: We can clearly see that he is black....(We see Danzo using seals)

You: No, he has a really good make up artist that enables him to _appear_ black to the public in order for him to gain the vote of the black community. (No, Danzo cannot cast dojutsu with eyes on his arm without the use of seals because they are not connected to the ocular nerve)

Me: Where the fuck did you get that. (Where the fuck did you get that.)

You: All presidents are white. (No dojutsu requires seals)

Me: That's not a fact. (That's not a fact)

You: Look at the evidence. Lincoln, Washington, Bush, Kennedy, Roosevelt, they are all white. Why would Obama be the exception? (Look at the evidence. Amaterasu, Koto, Tsukuyomi, Kamui, none require seals. Why would Izanagi be the exception?)


This is obviously flawless logic.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> This logic could be used to argue that Obama isn't black...
> 
> You: Obama is white. (Izanagi doesn't require seals)
> 
> ...



Your example doesn't relate to what we are talking about here. Not even close.

I'll come up with a better one.

Here is the scenario : 

You see Michael Jackson and say "White people look so weird man, they look like Orochimaru."

And I say "but dude, that is an extreme case, he went through some pigmentation shit, he was originally black."

You say : "eh ? Whats the difference. He is white now. He is what a white person looks like."

Anyway, I think once you realize that the way Danzo used Izanagi was pretty extreme and only unique to him, then you'll start to make sense out of what I said.

Think outside the argument for a second, forget this is about winning or losing or conceding. You'll understand it.



alex payne said:


> Only on-panel usage of Izanagi was from Danzo. He used handseals. Obito and Madara used it off-panel. Se have one on-panel usage it was via handseals. There was no indication that Danzo's Izanagi was different from normal one - except for length. It is _possible_ that handseals are exclusive to him but considering all the evidence we have... Not very plausible imo.



Danzo's usage of Izanagi was exclusive to him.
That is all the evidence you need to label it as an outlier in regards to dojutsu usage. For starters, the dude didn't use his eye to cast dojutsu.



> The nature of Izanagi is sacrificing the eye, it is not like other built-in techs that at best strain/damage the eye over time. Using hand seals for stuff like that makes more sense.


Lol Izanami


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

My example relates to the logic you are trying to apply, almost perfectly if I might add. 

Bottom line is that you have no evidence that a connection exists between Danzo's use of hand seals and the placement of the eyes. If being connected to the fucking ocular nerve was all it took to avoid seals, then NO dojutsu would require them, yet both Rinne Tensei and the Heavenly Meteor thing do. 

Oh, and Itachi activated Koto Amatsukami from a fucking crow; that eye was not connected to his ocular nerve.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 11, 2014)

Rocky said:


> My example relates to the logic you are trying to apply, almost perfectly if I might add.



You may want to re-read my example one more time then, because that is exactly what you are saying.



> Bottom line is that you have no evidence that a connection exists between Danzo's use of hand seals and the placement of the eyes.


The connection is pretty evident for me. I thought everyone knew this, and it was common knowledge.
Seriously, like all sharingan dojutsu use the eye as a medium and require no seals. Why would Izanagi be the exception, even when its twin Izanami doesn't require seals ?
The answer is pretty clear. It doesn't require seals, Danzo's version does, because he uses it unconventionally.



> If being connected to the fucking ocular nerve was all it took to avoid seals, then NO dojutsu would require them, yet both Rinne Tensei and the Heavenly Meteor thing do.


Izanagi is a sharingan technique. The ones you mentioned are rinnegan techniques. Animal path is basic kuchiyose, so it obviously doesn't follow similar rules as sharingan. Rinnegan grants a set of abilities that aren't exactly eye related.



> Oh, and Itachi activated Koto Amatsukami from a fucking crow; that eye was not connected to his ocular nerve.



Itachi pre-programmed it, and it activated on the condition that it made contact with Itachi's eyes.


----------



## Rocky (Sep 11, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Seriously, like all sharingan dojutsu use the eye as a medium and require no seals.



You know, I think it's time I asked you this question.

_What_ does the eye being connected to the optic nerve have to do with whether or not one needs seals?



> Izanagi is a sharingan technique. The ones you mentioned are rinnegan techniques. Animal path is basic kuchiyose, so it obviously doesn't follow similar rules as sharingan. Rinnegan grants a set of abilities that aren't exactly eye related.



Both the Sharingan and Rinnegan are dojutsu and use the eyes to cast the technique. If the reason that Danzo needs seals is because his eyes aren't connect to the optic nerve (which doesn't make sense btw), then there would be no need for seals in any of the Rinnegan techniques.



> Itachi pre-programmed it, and it activated on the condition that it made contact with Itachi's eyes.



I know.

He activated Koto Amatsukami with a Sharingan on a crow and didn't use signs.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 12, 2014)

Obamaterasu has been black in every instance on panel.


----------



## Trojan (Sep 12, 2014)

the jutsus that was shown once to need a seal, they always do need a seal. Kishi is not going to waste panels
every damn time to show the seals for the same damn jutsu every time someone uses it, and I mean those who
needs several seals....

So, don't bring Narudo using his clones seal every time. 

things like Chidori, Izanagi, some of the Fire jutsus, the water Dragon seals...etc
even the S/T barrier, we saw it in details the first time, but the second time, it did not even appear...

SM in the first time it took almost a chapter to build up for it, but Kishi is not going to waste a chapter every time
he wants a SM user to use it. I.e, Minato using it in one panel, yet stating that it took him "too long". 

and so one and so forth...


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 12, 2014)

SM takes too long by Minato standards.  In the time it takes him to get a charge, he could have already soloed an army.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2014)

Rocky said:


> You know, I think it's time I asked you this question.
> 
> _What_ does the eye being connected to the optic nerve have to do with whether or not one needs seals?



I've already explained this with the "finger and your buttcheek" example. A functioning eye can be used the cast the jutsu, like every other sharingan jutsu. An eye that isn't functioning can't.
Pretty Simple. 



> Both the Sharingan and Rinnegan are dojutsu and use the eyes to cast the technique. If the reason that Danzo needs seals is because his eyes aren't connect to the optic nerve (which doesn't make sense btw), then there would be no need for seals in any of the Rinnegan techniques.


I've also already explained why Rinnegan is a different case. The path powers for instance, aren't cast through the eyes. Take Kuchiyose for example. 



> I know.
> 
> He activated Koto Amatsukami with a Sharingan on a crow and didn't use signs.



Itachi didn't activate it.
He pre-programmed it to be activated(we have no idea how he did that, or the mechanics behind it).
Difference is clear.



All sharingan dojutsu are cast through the eyes, with no need for seals. 

The only time a sharingan dojutsu required seals to cast is when Danzo used it in a very unconventional way.

And you are saying that the way Danzo used it makes no difference, despite being a unique case.
I want to know your reasoning behind this. If there is any.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol Izanami


Yeah, true


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 12, 2014)

obito baby shakes


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Yeah, true



Thats basic chakra molding sign. He didn't cast Izanami there either, it was just a bait to lure Kabuto in.

He explains how Izanami is used next chapter : look at the Sandaime
He started Izanami when Kabuto first stabbed his clone. And closed the loop when the same thing happened again.
No seals were involved.


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats basic chakra molding sign.


Sure





Grimmjowsensei said:


> He didn't cast Izanami there either, it was just a bait to lure Kabuto in.


 Itachi states that he will now start Izanami. Izanami starts soon after he made them hand signs. Bait? When was that stated?



Grimmjowsensei said:


> He explains how Izanami is used next chapter : look at the Sandaime
> He started Izanami when Kabuto first stabbed his clone. And closed the loop when the same thing happened again.


 Itachi says when he started Izanami. That's all. He never said when he actually activated it. Well, except when he did - instance that you claim is "bait" for some reason.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No seals were involved.


 Itachi says "Imma start Izanami", makes hand seals, Izanami starts. I am pretty sure that I am seeing seals there.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> Sure


look at the Sandaime



> Itachi states that he will now start Izanami. Izanami starts soon after he made them hand signs. Bait? When was that stated?


No, Izanami doesn't start there.
Izanami started the moment Kabuto stabbed Itachi. look at the Sandaime

He taunted Kabuto and lowered Susano'o, so that Kabuto could come in close. Thats the bait, and Kabuto took it. And Itachi closed the loop as a result of that.

When he said "I'll start Izanami" he wasn't referring to casting the jutsu. He meant that he'd close the loop and by that *Izanami would start for Kabuto*.
It had nothing to do with casting of the Jutsu.
There is half a chapter dedicated to explain how the jutsu works, and guess what, your scan isn't in it.


> Itachi says when he started Izanami. That's all. He never said when he actually activated it. Well, except when he did - instance that you claim is "bait" for some reason.


I covered this.
The jutsu activates when Itachi is stabbed(starts recording) and ends when he is stabbed the 2nd time(stops recording and jutsu is cast on Kabuto).
Sasuke asks when he used it and Itachi answers. There is no need to look beyond that.



> Itachi says "Imma start Izanami", makes hand seals, Izanami starts. I am pretty sure that I am seeing seals there.


Only that Izanami doesn't start there 

I guess that is the only downside of your argument huh


----------



## Alex Payne (Sep 12, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> look at the Sandaime


 So? You do realize that that seal is also used by several people to activate ninjutsu, right? Onoki, Sai, Deidara. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No, Izanami doesn't start there.
> Izanami started the moment Kabuto stabbed Itachi. look at the Sandaime
> 
> He taunted Kabuto and lowered Susano'o, so that Kabuto could come in close. Thats the bait, and Kabuto took it. And Itachi closed the loop as a result of that.


 Yeah. And Itachi made hand-seals between repeating bunshin-feint. For some reason. Oh, wait. He was baiting a _blind sensor_ with them.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> When he said "I'll start Izanami" he wasn't referring to casting the jutsu. He meant that he'd close the loop and by that *Izanami would start for Kabuto*.
> It had nothing to do with casting of the Jutsu.
> There is half a chapter dedicated to explain how the jutsu works, and guess what, your scan isn't in it.
> 
> ...



Let me ask you are a simple question. By your words Uchiha fully activates Izanami the moment he starts recording. Assuming he fails to reproduce the exact same event to close the loop - what would happen?


----------



## Icegaze (Sep 12, 2014)

silly question alex. if he fails to close the loop izanami wont activate. hence why itachi said it isnt ideal to use in battle. apart from the obvious loosing and eye and easy to defeat should the character be TNJ immune. eg: kakuzu 
the whole idea is to close to loop. itachi can close the loop and did. 

however as far as this battle is concerned, obito wins quite handily. itachi needs to be able to attack in the fraction of a second obito is solid. despite itachi clone trickery which is well above anything seen so far i dont believe he can beat obito. 

Simple reason obito can use izanagi, which auto kills itachi when he respawns. izanami will be harder to pull off for itachi. 

obito is like the itachi counter. seriously all itachi haxx moves can be beat by kamui


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 12, 2014)

alex payne said:


> So? You do realize that that seal is also used by several people to activate ninjutsu, right? Onoki, Sai, Deidara.


Yeah, it was used like that. It was also used to mold chakra. 
I've never seen it used to cast ninjutsu though. 
Eitherway, Itachi didn't perform a seal sequence before he "started" Izanami or before he "closed" it. Like Danzo was doing with Izanagi.



> Yeah. And Itachi made hand-seals between repeating bunshin-feint. For some reason. Oh, wait. He was baiting a _blind sensor_ with them.


You are aware that Kabuto "sees" things right ? Snakes have infrared vision, they also "see" through vibrations and Kabuto has sage sensing on top of that.

When Naruto used sage sensing, he had a clear picture of what was happening in all the battlefields.

Also what are you suggesting ? There is one condition to complete Izanami, and that is to repeat the exact same moment you previously shared with your target.

*How does making a seal accomplish that goal ? *Think about it.

There is a reason why Itachi turned off Susano'o and taunted Kabuto. I am not sure how he foresaw what would happen, but he somehow did. Kabuto attacked, Sasuke wanted to retaliate quickly with his sword, Kabuto grabbed it and Itachi got himself stabbed for a second time and closed the loop.

So yes, in a sense what he said became true. "I will start Izanami."




> Let me ask you are a simple question. By your words Uchiha fully activates Izanami the moment he starts recording. Assuming he fails to reproduce the exact same event to close the loop - what would happen?



I don't know honestly. 
But my guess is that there is a limit to what you can record and if that time elapses before you can close the loop, then you lose the eye eitherway.


----------



## JuicyG (Sep 12, 2014)

Yea...pretty obv

Obito > Itachi


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 13, 2014)

> Yeah, it was used like that. It was also used to mold chakra.
> I've never seen it used to cast ninjutsu though.



All hand seals mold chakra.  You mold chakra to cast jutsu. That's why different jutsu use different signs.  You mold it different ways to do different jutsu.  There are only 12 hand seals, so you will see a lot of the same signs being used to cast different jutsu, especially when hand seals are abridged, and we only get the first or last one.

When you get to half seals, half ram and half tiger look pretty much the same, so it's actually going to be hard to distinguish them, even though they tend to be used for very different classes of jutsu.  If you want an example of Ram being used to cast jutsu, Zabuza uses a variation of it to cast the iconic Hidden Mist jutsu.  I think.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Are people seriously arguing handseals? What has the battledome become? Anyways, the handseal being debated here is said to be simply molding chakra and not a jutsu sign. Well Itachi has used that exact sign for jutsu several times so you tell me.

Here to use this.

Here for another jutsu.


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## OutlawJohn (Sep 13, 2014)

Scenario I: *Obito*

Obito has far more knowledge on Itachi's skillset than the other way around; Obito certainly knows of Izanami, even if he doesn't know that Itachi knows it. There's no guarantee it would work on him . Obito pretty much neutralizes Itachi's entire skillset here. Close range combat is suicide, even with Itachi's impressive speed and use of Kage Bushin, Obito can warp in and out of reality and his fast enough to keep up with Minato. If Obito is allowed use Mokuton jutsu than fighting here is even more dangerous.

Tobi has lol'd at Amaterasu before. In fact, he lol'd at Amaterasu when he had no idea it was coming. Now facing off against Itachi, and knowing that Amaterasu is Itachi's most powerful jutsu, Obito is certainly not going to be defeated by it.

Scenario 2: Obito

Similar reasons, except now Obito has no range warping skills.

Scenario 3: Obito

Those Bijuudamas and dat Rinnegan.


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2014)

older uchiha with hashirama DNA obviously beats younger one this match is like arguing who would win between madara and obito. 
yes the gap is that ridiculous. obito lol beats him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Are people seriously arguing handseals? What has the battledome become? Anyways, the handseal being debated here is said to be simply molding chakra and not a jutsu sign. Well Itachi has used that exact sign for jutsu several times so you tell me.
> 
> Here to use this.
> 
> Here for another jutsu.






The Pirate on Wheels said:


> All hand seals mold chakra.  You mold chakra to cast jutsu. That's why different jutsu use different signs.  You mold it different ways to do different jutsu.  There are only 12 hand seals, so you will see a lot of the same signs being used to cast different jutsu, especially when hand seals are abridged, and we only get the first or last one.
> 
> When you get to half seals, half ram and half tiger look pretty much the same, so it's actually going to be hard to distinguish them, even though they tend to be used for very different classes of jutsu.  If you want an example of Ram being used to cast jutsu, Zabuza uses a variation of it to cast the iconic Hidden Mist jutsu.  I think.



I know. What I meant was that in certain instances that sign wasn't used to cast a particular jutsu.

As for the matter at hand here, it wasn't used particularly for anything at all. Itachi might have used it just to channel chakra.
*
Its something shinobi do before they start an engagement : Here 
*
Actually, Obito taunting Kakashi and perfoming that sign is pretty much identical to what Itachi did here, and neither of them used it to cast a particular jutsu.



Icegaze said:


> older uchiha with hashirama DNA obviously beats younger one this match is like arguing who would win between madara and obito.
> yes the gap is that ridiculous. obito lol beats him



Being young and old has nothing to do with this.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know. What I meant was that in certain instances that sign wasn't used to cast a particular jutsu.
> 
> As for the matter at hand here, it wasn't used particularly for anything at all. Itachi might have used it just to channel chakra.
> *
> ...



Kakashi did it to Obito the page before. So how was Obito taunting him by doing that? 

What you are talking about is this. Which is what you do BEFORE the fight. To claim Itachi is doing that mid combat is ridiculous. Not only that, you do it with comrades not enemy's.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> Kakashi did it to Obito the page before. So how was Obito taunting him by doing that?
> 
> What you are talking about is this. Which is what you do BEFORE the fight. To claim Itachi is doing that mid combat is ridiculous. Not only that, you do it with comrades not enemy's.



Um yeah thats what I said. Its like Shinobi perform that seal as a sign that the fight is about to start.
They also use it to mold chakra for a jutsu they are going to use next.

Obito and Kakashi aren't comrades. 

My point is that, the sign doesn't necessarily mean a jutsu was used. That is all.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Um yeah thats what I said. Its like Shinobi perform that seal *as a sign that the fight is about to start.*
> They also use it to mold chakra for a jutsu they are going to use next.
> 
> Obito and Kakashi aren't comrades.
> ...



The fight started chapters ago. Itachi clearly did it for his next attack.

Obito and Kakashi had symbolism going there, hence the flashbacks to when they were kids. And when they were about to connect hands (in the flashback), they stabbed each other real time. Kabuto and Itachi has no symbolism. They were never comrades.

The sign means your preparing chakra for an attack, whether it's taijutsu or ninjutsu or even genjutsu.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> The sign means your preparing chakra for an attack, whether it's taijutsu or ninjutsu or even genjutsu.



I agree with that. Its not mandatory though.


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2014)

actually when it comes to experience in using the same jutsu years of experience matter. 
example: sasuke wondering how itachi could maintain full susanoo when he could barely keep up the rib cage in the kage summit arc 

so yes when it comes to prodigies their gap in age matters alot. in obito case he even got the hashirama boost. 

so this battle isnt even debatable. itachi has alot going for him but the likes of minato, tobirama and obito are like ridiculous counters to itachi 

itachi is a tricky speed fighter, each of those characters have jutsu that by passes all of itachi arsenal. 

what is the general opinion on obito ability to phase through itachi susanoo if itachi uses to try to defend himself. i.e can obito appear inside it?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I agree with that. Its not mandatory though.



So why are you arguing that it wasn't?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> actually when it comes to experience in using the same jutsu years of experience matter.
> example: sasuke wondering how itachi could maintain full susanoo when he could barely keep up the rib cage in the kage summit arc
> 
> so yes when it comes to prodigies their gap in age matters alot. in obito case he even got the hashirama boost.
> ...



Yes but Obito is not a prodigy and he & Itachi don't have a similar skillset.

You can't say that Obito is more experienced than Itachi using MS, because even if he is, it doesn't matter here. Itachi has a fully mastered MS, so does Obito. They don't one up each other.

It comes down to whose arsenal is superior and who can make better use of it.

STJ is generally a good counter against those who don't have it. But I wouldn't make such a generalization, considering Obito is a STJ user and an Uchiha, so he counters Itachi's genjutsu as well. Tobirama and Minato aren't in that category. 

All in all, I think Itachi most of the time defeats Obito simply because of Izanami. It is a perfect counter for Obito. His STJ doesn't allow him to defend against it, and his fighting style is too one dimensional, making him an effective prey for the jutsu.



IchLiebe said:


> So why are you arguing that it wasn't?



I wasn't arguing that.

Some others were saying that Itachi performed Izanami on that panel with that seal. I was just saying he didn't. I didn't say he wasn't molding chakra or anything.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Thats basic chakra molding sign. He didn't cast Izanami there either, *it was just a bait to lure Kabuto in.*



I'm talking about this fanfic. You were arguing that Itachi did it get Kabuto to attack. However we've established that seal is used for jutsu's and attacks so no need to argue that.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I'm talking about this fanfic. You were arguing that Itachi did it get Kabuto to attack. However we've established that seal is used for jutsu's and attacks so no need to argue that.



It was also the part of the bait yes. He dropped Susano'O, taunted Kabuto and performed the sign. He left himself defenseless, knowing that Kabuto would rush in.

Its not a fanfic, thats what happened.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> It was also the part of the bait yes. He dropped Susano'O, taunted Kabuto and performed the sign. He left himself defenseless, knowing that Kabuto would rush in.
> 
> Its not a fanfic, thats what happened.



No. He dropped susanoo because he wasn't using it. He put up a handseal to prep an attack and got blitz'd. He's fast and didn't expect to get blitz at that distance.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> No. He dropped susanoo because he wasn't using it. He put up a handseal to prep an attack and got blitz'd. He's fast and didn't expect to get blitz at that distance.



Lol, can't believe I need to spell out the details of a manga written for 12 years olds....

Anways, you are wrong.

It was a part of Itachi's plan to lure Kabuto in. How do you think he planned to close the loop unless Kabuto grabbed Sasuke's sword and stabbed him with it ?


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes but Obito is not a prodigy and he & Itachi don't have a similar skillset.
> 
> You can't say that Obito is more experienced than Itachi using MS, because even if he is, it doesn't matter here. Itachi has a fully mastered MS, so does Obito. They don't one up each other.
> 
> ...



ok fair point good analysis. However his 1 dimensional move is too convenient and has been shown to beat amaterasu already. As for tskuyomi obito experience in MS  comes into play hence why i brought it up. No way can itachi tskuyomi GG obito. If you think so explain why, then explain why he cannot do the same to madara. 
As for susanoo as fast as it is, its still slower than amaterasu 

i say obito wins 11/10 as for izanami being a perfect counter to obito i agree. However izanagi is also a perfect counter to itachi. obito takes a dive and uses izanagi. He pops up and slices itachi head off. Thanks to kamui he can slip right under itachi and itachi wont even know it. izanagi+kamui is way to hax for itachi


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Lol, can't believe I need to spell out the details of a manga written for 12 years olds....
> 
> Anways, you are wrong.
> 
> It was a part of Itachi's plan to lure Kabuto in. How do you think he planned to close the loop unless Kabuto grabbed Sasuke's sword and stabbed him with it ?



FANFIC. It was you fans came up with. It was never hinted at, said, or anything in the manga about it. Itachifans came up with it because it makes Itachi look smart.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

Icegaze said:


> ok fair point good analysis. However his 1 dimensional move is too convenient and has been shown to beat amaterasu already


Sure, I don't think Amaterasu can defeat him as long as he can use Izanagi.




> As for tskuyomi obito experience in MS  comes into play hence why i brought it up. No way can itachi tskuyomi GG obito. If you think so explain why, then explain why he cannot do the same to madara.
> As for susanoo as fast as it is, its still slower than amaterasu


I also agree that Tsukiyomi can't defeat him, Itachi impled MS wielding Uchiha could defeat it.
Susano'o would be used defensively most of the time, not as a means to finish off Obito.



> i say obito wins 11/10 as for izanami being a perfect counter to obito i agree. However izanagi is also a perfect counter to itachi. obito takes a dive and uses izanagi. He pops up and slices itachi head off. Thanks to kamui he can slip right under itachi and itachi wont even know it. izanagi+kamui is way to hax for itachi



I am pretty sure a jutsu solely built to counter Izanagi wouldn't be so easily defeated by it. Itachi'd take the necessary countermeasures against it.

And Itachi'd most likely use clones to perform it, like he did with Kabuto. 

It is easy to start and close a loop with Obito because his main means of offense is Kamui warp, and he IC grabs his opponents first to warp them.  I mean, if Itachi was somehow able to replicate getting stabbed upside down against someone with a diverse moveset, doing it against someone like Tobi should be much easier.

I am not saying that Izanami is 100% guarantee, but I'd say it'd give Itachi the win 8-9 times out of 10.

edit : 



IchLiebe said:


> FANFIC. It was you fans came up with. It was never hinted at, said, or anything in the manga about it. Itachifans came up with it because it makes Itachi look smart.



Um ok. Then you probably know better than me. Explain to me what Itachi was thinking when he used Izanami and what steps he took to close the loop ?


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Um ok. Then you probably know better than me. Explain to me what Itachi was thinking when he used Izanami and what steps he took to close the loop ?



I got no problem saying it.


*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi's a dumbfuck and didn't know what he was doing .


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> I got no problem saying it.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



So your argument is that Itachi used Izanami without a plan and it worked just through stroke of luck. Despite Itachi telling Sasuke that he had a plan... Ok.. Duly noted


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## IchLiebe (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> So your argument is that Itachi used Izanami without a plan and it worked just through stroke of luck. Despite Itachi telling Sasuke that he had a plan... Ok.. Duly noted



Well we know all of Itachi's plans fail so of course .


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## Icegaze (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sure, I don't think Amaterasu can defeat him as long as he can use Izanagi.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Good analysis 
You might be right 
However I think you are banking far too much on izanami
If it lands itachi wins 
I say maybe obito wins 6/10


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Sep 13, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I know. What I meant was that in certain instances that sign wasn't used to cast a particular jutsu.
> 
> As for the matter at hand here, it wasn't used particularly for anything at all. Itachi might have used it just to channel chakra.
> *
> ...



here

They started engagement with Kabuto twice, and both times were after they already fought?

The chapter that was introduced explained to us that it denotes a friendly sparring match between shinobi of the Leaf for training purposes.  This isn't friendly, this isn't sparring, and they've already been fighting for tons of chapters.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 13, 2014)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> here
> 
> They started engagement with Kabuto twice, and both times were after they already fought?
> 
> The chapter that was introduced explained to us that it denotes a friendly sparring match between shinobi of the Leaf for training purposes.  This isn't friendly, this isn't sparring, and they've already been fighting for tons of chapters.



Its just a generic sign. Thats the point. Its been used as a means of molding chakra, or as a stance than it was used for casting ninjutsu.


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## Nikushimi (Sep 14, 2014)

Obito's punk ass lost to Kakashi.

Itachi murders him with Izanami.


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## Killacale85 (Sep 14, 2014)

Lol at people thinking amaterusa will kill obito? Or izanami working on obito. Remember  obito wasn't like kabuto, he only Pretended to be madara. Unlike kabuto who really tried to be Oro 2.0, obito knew exactly who and what he was doing the whole time. He'd break izanami in a sec then throw itachi in his trash bin lol


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## Killacale85 (Sep 14, 2014)

Also itachi would have to hit obito at least twice or make obito fall for clone fient twice lol and as we know if u don't have hiraishin and he touches u your gone. Obito is not stupid at all, I'd argue he is just as cunning as itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 14, 2014)

Killacale85 said:


> Lol at people thinking amaterusa will kill obito? Or izanami working on obito. Remember  obito wasn't like kabuto, he only Pretended to be madara. Unlike kabuto who really tried to be Oro 2.0, obito knew exactly who and what he was doing the whole time. He'd break izanami in a sec then throw itachi in his trash bin lol



couldn't land a single hit on Kimi


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## Ryuzaki (Sep 14, 2014)

Obito takes all 3 scenarios without a problem, I think the stamina is going to be an issue. Scenario 3 is overkill and can Obito use Susano'o?


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## Nikushimi (Sep 14, 2014)

Killacale85 said:


> Lol at people thinking amaterusa will kill obito? Or izanami working on obito. Remember  obito wasn't like kabuto, he only Pretended to be madara. Unlike kabuto who really tried to be Oro 2.0, obito knew exactly who and what he was doing the whole time. He'd break izanami in a sec then throw itachi in his trash bin lol





Grimmjowsensei said:


> 2



^Beat me to it.

Obito denied that he was even Obito. He said he was no one. 

That is a textbook Izanami victim right there.

Itachi punishes his asshole for eternity in a Genjutsu loop.


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## IchLiebe (Sep 14, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi punishes his asshole for eternity in a Genjutsu loop.



LOL....oookkk? Don't see how you dreams pertain to this fight?

EDIT: Obito found out everything that was wrong with himself because of Naruto so Izanami won't work here. To play into it, why would Itachi even go for Izanami. Kabuto was stating he wasn't this and that and denied shit upfront to Itachi, Obito won't. He won't have any reason to here.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Sep 16, 2014)

IchLiebe said:


> LOL....oookkk? Don't see how you dreams pertain to this fight?
> 
> EDIT: Obito found out everything that was wrong with himself because of Naruto so Izanami won't work here. To play into it, why would Itachi even go for Izanami. Kabuto was stating he wasn't this and that and denied shit upfront to Itachi, Obito won't. He won't have any reason to here.


Obito was the same. 

He says some shit like "I am no one" and he is a fucking dead man.


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## The World (Sep 16, 2014)

Well he was no one

and he did die

like twice


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## The World (Sep 16, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Obito's punk ass lost to Kakashi.
> 
> Itachi murders him with Izanami.



Itachi lost to SAUCEGAG

itachi puts himself in an endless genjutsu loop of shame


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## Final Jutsu (Sep 18, 2014)

Obito with Kamui is too much of a counter against Itachi.  Even a surprise amaterasu failed.


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## Edo Madara (Nov 27, 2014)

Scenario I

Itachi have chance with exploding bunshin and using his smart to figure out kamui 5 mins limit, but his low stamina can be problem so Obito take this


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## SSMG (Nov 27, 2014)

Itachi loses all three matches. Scenario's 2&3 are utter stomps.


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## Itachі (Nov 28, 2014)

In the first scenario, Itachi loses unless he uses his Koto crow. He's not fast enough to hit Obito, though this is "Healthy Itachi" and we don't know how fast he would be, he's still not going to be as fast as KCM Naruto or the like. In the second and third scenario, Obito slaughters Itachi.


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## Pocalypse (Nov 28, 2014)

Itachi loses all three scenarios. Itachi never had any knowledge on Kamui and that's a dealbreaker for the first scenario. Even if Itachi somehow found a way to work out its mechanics it will be way too late. Scenario 2 and 3, Itachi gets demolished.


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## Bkprince33 (Nov 28, 2014)

imo itachi can only beat obito, with full knowledge, plus izanagi


it would be a decent fight, but obito has more intel on itachi and has the stamina to experiment and test the waters


obito wins high difficulty

with full knowledge i think itachi would win extreme difficulty


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## Flappy (Nov 29, 2014)

> Healthy Itachi vs Defensive Kamui Obito



Obito wins low to mid diff.




> Healthy Itachi vs Dual-Kamui Obito




Itachi gets raped.




> Edo Itachi & EMS Sasuke vs Rinnegan Obito w/ Neo Paths+Gedo Mazo




Obito wins. None of the brothers have a counter to Kamui and Itachi is non factor in such a large scale battle.


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## Мoon (Nov 29, 2014)

The World said:


> Itachi lost to SAUCEGAG



I'm sure Itachi wanted Sauce to kill him on purpose


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