# Is Tobirama above Sannin level?



## Itachі (Jun 27, 2016)

I don't mean whether he could survive against Hanzo, I mean whether you think he's stronger than the Sannin members overall.


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## Mercurial (Jun 27, 2016)

By far. Faster, smarter, more haxxed, basically more effective in a 1 vs 1 fight, plus definitely a better portrayal.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2016)

No, they are all stronger than him.



Raikiri19 said:


> plus definitely a better portrayal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Android (Jun 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> No, they are all stronger than him.


Not exactly


Raikiri19 said:


> a better portrayal.


How the f**k is getting " freaking floored " by kinkaku and ginkaku a better portrayl 
They did not even show any respect for his abilities like Madara with Hashirama , Tobi with Minato , or Pain with Jiraiya
They blatantly stated that they " freaking wiped the floor with him "


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 27, 2016)

He's not better than orochimaru but he is stronger/better than tsunade.


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## Itachі (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not exactly
> 
> How the f**k is getting " freaking floored " by kinkaku and ginkaku a better portrayl
> They did not even show any respect for his abilities like Madara with Hashirama , Tobi with Minato , or Pain with Jiraiya
> They blatantly stated that they " freaking wiped the floor with him "



Well, weren't they established as unruly morons? I don't think they were the type to show respect. Tobirama was also praised by characters like Madara, so it's not like he has nothing on that spectrum.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Not exactly


The only argument that could be made is against Tsunade. And even then, people will go with their usual nonsense like

"Tobirama will chop off her head" or "Tobirama will use his water and cut off her neck" 
or some other fanfiction fighting-style that Tobirama never uses like

"Tobirama uses ET, go back home, and then start teleporting his ET with FTG and blow Tsunade up" or some other shit of this sort.

It's like saying, Tsunade summons Katsuya, then she stays inside her to protect herself of anything, and Katsuya kill Tobirama eventually"

Most of the threads about Tobirama are either
1- Rely on fanfiction too much in term of his fighting style 
2- Rely on nonsense like thinking that "he tagged Obito with his hands, he is faster than JJ Obito"

And then they start turning behind their tails when you ask them to explain where was his hand-speed against the weaker RT Asspulldara or Kin/Gin. and so on. lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jun 27, 2016)

Tobirama is one tie above Orochimaru the strongest among the sannin .


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, weren't they established as unruly morons? I don't think they were the type to show respect. Tobirama was also praised by characters like Madara, so it's not like he has nothing on that spectrum.


They clrealy respect the 3rd Raikage and were thinking "highly" of Darui because he had the 3rd's tattoo.



hbcaptain said:


> Tobirama is one tie above Orochimaru the strongest among the sannin .


In which manga? 
Any comparison with Oro, had Oro being on the top.
In both, his jutsu, and his talent.


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## Itachі (Jun 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> They clrealy respect the 3rd Raikage and were thinking "highly" of Darui because he had the 3rd's tattoo.



Yes, but they didn't fight. I don't think we should take their words to heart and assume that they actually did 'wipe the floor' with Tobirama. It's possible sure, but it's also possible that they were just arrogant idiots.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yes, but they didn't fight. I don't think we should take their words to heart and assume that they actually did 'wipe the floor' with Tobirama. It's possible sure, but it's also possible that they were just arrogant idiots.


Why shouldn't we? 
They fought him, and they killed him. That's the only proof we have from people were actually there in the fight.


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## Itachі (Jun 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> Why shouldn't we?
> They fought him, and they killed him. That's the only proof we have from people were actually there in the fight.



Because of their personalities? Just look at how much shit Orochimaru has been wrong about.


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## Trojan (Jun 27, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Because of their personalities? Just look at how much shit Orochimaru has been wrong about.


I don't get your comparison.  
What is the shit that that Oro was wrong with, and how do Kin/Gin personality effect what they said about Tobirama?


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## Itachі (Jun 27, 2016)

Hussain said:


> I don't get your comparison.
> What is the shit that that Oro was wrong with, and how do Kin/Gin personality effect what they said about Tobirama?



Didn't Kinkaku/Ginkaku come off as very prideful and cocky to you? I Might have to re-read the fight, lol.

Orochimaru treated Jiraiya like trash even though Jiraiya was his equal, if not his superior.


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## Saru (Jun 27, 2016)

I think so. 

Not so much that he'd stomp them, but I would favor Tobirama in a fight against any of the Sannin, as well as a number of other opponents that I don't think the Sannin could defeat.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Jun 27, 2016)

Nah I find him to be pretty equal with the Sannin more or less between feats+hype+portrayal and all that jazz though over the years I've come to find speed to be overrated as a whole so I don't see him being as high up as others since most of his speed don't impress me that much

Reactions: Like 1


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## Divell (Jun 28, 2016)

He is above them. Him, Sarutobi and Minato are above them.


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## Android (Jun 28, 2016)

@Second Hokage Tobirama is not gonna love the responses in this thread


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 28, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> @Second Hokage Tobirama is not gonna love the responses in this thread


Hah nah not at all,everyone has their own opinion. Although I admit always find hilarious Hussains hate and downplay for Hashirama,Tobirama and Madara. 

I personally don't see how being defeated from ambush and surprise once from two Monsters with Rokkudou Tools and Kyubi Modes and surviving can make someone look weak. Do you think any of the Sannin has even ghost of a chance against Kin/Gin 1 VS 2 or even 2 VS 3 and especially if they lack knowledge on their Tools and Kyubi Powers.

Tobirama is decent amount above the Sannin to me at least. Orochimaru is close in Intellect at least if not equal.


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## Matty (Jun 28, 2016)

A full powered Orochimaru should be around Tobirama's level. His access to ET is better than anything Tobirama has.

I'd say he's stronger than the sannin, but the Orochimaru who was controlling the kage in the war is far better in terms of raw power. Tobirama should still have the edge in speed/reflexes but his Hiraishin doesn't work well against Oro with Oral rebirth


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## Icegaze (Jun 28, 2016)

He is 
Comfortably so 
2 of the jutsu he created were the most influencial in the war 
Hirashin and edo tensei
He can use a combination of both as well 

Jutsu wise though he showed less his jutsu ability to me is only matched by the likes of Jiriaya 
The other 2 are left in the dust


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## hbcaptain (Jun 28, 2016)

Matty said:


> A full powered Orochimaru should be around Tobirama's level. His access to ET is better than anything Tobirama has.
> 
> I'd say he's stronger than the sannin, but the Orochimaru who was controlling the kage in the war is far better in terms of raw power. Tobirama should still have the edge in speed/reflexes but his Hiraishin doesn't work well against Oro with Oral rebirth


I would say it's the opposit , oral rebirth isn't a good counter to FTG since Tobirama can easily caut him of until he dies spaming Hiraishin and Suiton/Taijutsu , Kawarimi is a taxing technique .


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## Jad (Jun 28, 2016)

I'd be surprised if he wasn't.


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## Matty (Jun 28, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I would say it's the opposit , oral rebirth isn't a good counter to FTG since Tobirama can easily caut him of until he dies spaming Hiraishin and Suiton/Taijutsu , Kawarimi is a taxing technique .



Good point. It certainly is taxing. I think Orochimaru is beneath him. His mastery of ET, though, is clearly above Tobirama's use. Although, they might use them differently anyway. But I do agree he is above the sannin and I still stand by Pro having about as much raw power as any non god tier since he can summon Madara and other highly skilled fighters


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## hbcaptain (Jun 28, 2016)

Matty said:


> Good point. It certainly is taxing. I think Orochimaru is beneath him. His mastery of ET, though, is clearly above Tobirama's use. Although, they might use them differently anyway. But I do agree he is above the sannin and I still stand by Pro having about as much raw power as any non god tier since he can summon Madara and other highly skilled fighters


Well, Oro with Full Powered Edo Tensei is ways above Jiraya and Tsunade . And I would say P1 Oro with Edo Hashirama and Tobirama might be the same tier as him but still a little weaker .


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## Icegaze (Jun 28, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Well, Oro with Full Powered Edo Tensei is ways above Jiraya and Tsunade . And I would say P1 Oro with Edo Hashirama and Tobirama might be the same tier as him but still a little weaker .



Full powered or close to it requires 2 things 

Oro having hashirama DNA and the bodies he is using being hashirama DNA

Something normally he doesn't possess 

Part 1 ET aren't bad and at least can defend themselves 

However Tobirama needs to support his ET more actively 

Though GFk>>>> anytbing part 1 ET can do


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 28, 2016)

Oro uses ET in a way that I don't consider it part of his Power,cuz literally Summons Strong individuals to fight his battles fro him,while Tobirama uses weak ET but in Tactical and Effective way in which I can say it is part if his Skill,and Tactical Skills and combined with Mawashi and GKF it is even more impressive!

Reactions: Like 1


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## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2016)

I think Tobirama is above the Sannin, save Orochimaru because of ET. But his tactics, Hiraishin, and powerful Suiton jutsus with overall portrayal makes me see him above.

His powerful chakra was also like a way of Kishimoto showing off he is a pretty strong individual. And he fought a MS Sharingan user (Wich i hold above Sannin Tsunade and probably equal to MS Madara, who could beat Mu and Onoki at the same time pretty easily) and beat him.

So, yeah.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jun 28, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Oro uses ET in a way that I don't consider it part of his Power,cuz literally Summons Strong individuals to fight his battles fro him


It's a part of his arsenal 
It's his " jutsu " , and he controls them , do you think we should also not consider Bunta , Hero , and Ken a part of Jiraiya's arsenal cuz they are summon that fights for him


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 28, 2016)

In my opinion actually yes! Someone who does the fighting for you is not your Power/Skills/Ability or anything like.

Enma is somewhat different cuz he is a Weapon too. Summons are help but they are not your "own" power. Same goes for Oros Edo he summons a bunch of OP People who can basically beat any one not God Tier and boom he is the strongest!! No that is a big NO in my book my friend! 

While Tobirama uses ET as a Tools or even Bunshins with incredible destrcutive capeablity!


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## Android (Jun 28, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> In my opinion actually yes! Someone who does the fighting for you is not your Power/Skills/Ability or anything like.
> 
> Enma is somewhat different cuz he is a Weapon too. Summons are help but they are not your "own" power. Same goes for Oros Edo he summons a bunch of OP People who can basically beat any one not God Tier and boom he is the strongest!! No that is a big NO in my book my friend!
> 
> While Tobirama uses ET as a Tools or even Bunshins with incredible destrcutive capeablity!


Should i bring the Databook page that says :
Summoning : Impure world of reincarnation (Edo Tensei)
classification : *Ninjutsu* , Kinjutsu , Reincarnation Ninjutsu 
It's a ninjutsu , a " jutsu " my friend , so it's a part of Oro's arsenal , don't forget that he actually has to prepare many things , to make a good use of this jutsu , he still has to control them , and if the users isn't strong enuff , the EDOs probably won't be strong or useful . Like part 01 Hashirama who's basically a fodder .
So yeah , it's still a jutsu , and a jutsu is as strong as the Shinobi that uses it .


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## Richard Lionheart (Jun 28, 2016)

Tobirama is not weaker than the Sannin. He is not really stronger either.

The fights he would fight would depend on some circumstances. E.g. if Oro may use Edo Tensei, if J-man starts in SM or if Tsunade has enough chakra in her seal.

Calling them equal is far from ridiculous.


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## Marsala (Jun 28, 2016)

Tobirama is on the same level as the Sannin, particularly Orochimaru. His genius in inventing new jutsu is above them, though.


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## Mithos (Jun 28, 2016)

He might be a little stronger, but I don't see him as much more powerful than the Sannin, personally. 

In fact, I would say Orochimaru would beat him even without Edo Tensei; I put SM Jiraiya above Tobirama, so a victory would depend on circumstances to see if Jiraiya could achieve it; as for Tsunade, I'm not sure.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 28, 2016)

Originally it went something like Tobirama<=Hashirama<Old Hiruzen<Sannin<Prime Hiruzen.

Hence why Tobirama lost to Gin/Kin Squad, and Hashirama died during a war, and Old Hiruzen was still the God of Shinobi and strongest of the kage.  Being able to seal the two previous Kage and almost draw with Orochimaru despite being long past his prime was a statement.

So the Sannin should have been better individually than Tobirama.  Then Madara was scaled up, and so Hashirama had to be scaled up, and Tobirama was drug with him as he had a fixed relationship with his brother, but Kin and Gin were drug down so Darui could have a good fight with him, and then Tsunade was put with the current kage below Edo Madara, while Orochimaru was put below Kabuto, and Jiraiya was put below or barely about the Six Path, and Tobirama was put with living Madara though below living Sage Madara.  To make this more confusing, Edo Hiruzen was then grouped with the previous Hokage, and it was heavily reinforced that Hokage are the definitive best of the Kage, even while nerfed.  Now remember that any average Sannin sans super mode is supposed to be better than that version of Hiruzen and the current living Sannin gained much more power as the series went on, we get a confusing mix of themes and mixed messages that Kishi revived and remembered after we thought them long dead.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 28, 2016)

Easily

Same Tier as Minato aka superior to the sannin. Smarter, faster, more haxed jutsus, more experience and so on. I actually think its almost down right foolish to think otherwise


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## LostSelf (Jun 28, 2016)

I still think he is. I mean, how much more powerful than Izuna was Madara? I doubt they were far apart before Madara acquired EMS. And MS Madara defeated both Muu and Onoki, Mu being at the level of a Sannin.

Yet, Tobirama defeated Madara's probably near equal. If both brothers weren't far apart, then Tobirama should easily beat any Sannin on any ground (unless it's SM Jiraiya hidden with Frog Song prepped).


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## Mithos (Jun 28, 2016)

Do we even know how powerful Izuna was though? 

If Izuna was anywhere near as powerful as Madara, Tobirama would not have lost to Kin/Gin even with a Raikage as back-up.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 28, 2016)

Madara, Izuna, Hashirama, and Tobirama were all supposed to be roughly equal to each other, with the Senju brothers having the edge.  Izuna being the Tobirama of Madara's side, supposedly equal to MS Madara, and Madara only definitely surpassed him when he took his eyes and got EMS.  Of course EMS Madara lost to Hashirama, who, in response to Madara's dramatic rise in power, uhh, tried harder the next day.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 28, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Do we even know how powerful Izuna was though?
> 
> If Izuna was anywhere near as powerful as Madara, Tobirama would not have lost to Kin/Gin even with a Raikage as back-up.



Gin and Kin were supposed to be so strong they almost killed Tobirama and Nidaime Raikage, and their mention made Ei have a panic attack and talk about how he needed to go down there himself to mitigate their threat.  They were theorized to be direct decedents of the Sage of Six paths, inheriting the horns and features of them, like Kumo's version of the Kaguya clan.  They captured the nine tails, or something... and got eaten by it.  Did they use that to attack Tobirama and Sandaime Raikage too?  But that was before they killed Tobirama.  Uhh.  Wait, they couldn't have been with their squad, since they were disgraced after the coup.  ... did Kishi make the Kumo version of the Kaguya clan also stage a coup?  More literary parallels?  Really?

In practice, they just kind of sucked, and their hax sealing abilities are so complicated it's hard to imagine anyone they could already beat with taijutsu would get caught by it.  Also, this means that the squad that killed Tobirama didn't even have the two people on it who's namesake it beared.  They also took 4 of the 5 sacred treasures with them after they died, so those weren't even available to use against Tobirama.

Why...


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## Sapherosth (Jun 29, 2016)

Not sure why some people think that Tobirama = Sanin or are below them. The dude is literally a smarter version of Minato with the Hirashin. The only difference is he doesn't finish you off with a rasengan.

Reactions: Like 1


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## StarWanderer (Jun 29, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> By far. Faster, smarter, more haxxed, basically more effective in a 1 vs 1 fight, plus definitely a better portrayal.



Agree.

Tobirama can basicly speedblitz any Sannin in 1-on-1 combat.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Agree.
> 
> Tobirama can basicly speedblitz any Sannin in 1-on-1 combat.


Yeah pretty much this. They are too slow.


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## Android (Jun 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> The only difference is he doesn't finish you off with a rasengan.


The only difference is Minato took on Tobi and 100 % Kurama
On the other hand Tobirama with the Raikage and several othe jounin got beat up by 2 pseudo Jinchuurikis that actually didn't even use their V2 transformation , problem ? 

And Kurama solo'd both Kin and Gin in canon

I guess , Minato > Kurama > Kin/Gin > Tobirama , problem ?


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## Sapherosth (Jun 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> The only difference is Minato took on Tobi and 100 % Kurama
> On the other hand Tobirama with the Raikage and several othe jounin got beat up by 2 pseudo Jinchuurikis that actually didn't even use their V2 transformation , problem ?
> And Kurama solo'd both Kin and Gin in canon
> I guess , Minato > Kurama > Kin/Gin > Tobirama , problem ?




Well....Minato didn't take them both on at the same time...lmao. 

On the contrary, if you want to play that way, it was Obito+Kyuubi vs Minato, 3rd Hokage and the rest of Konoha 


Oh yeah, Minato never "defeated" Kurama.. lmao. Not sure what you're smoking. Last I checked, Minato had no other option than to seal it. Kushina on her deathbed could've dragged the Kyuubi in the die with her. Does that mean Kushina is stronger than Kyuubi? 






> On the other hand Tobirama with the Raikage and several othe jounin got beat up by 2 pseudo Jinchuurikis that actually didn't even use their V2 transformation , problem ?



Some scans of the fight?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## StarWanderer (Jun 29, 2016)

Raikiri19 said:


> Yeah pretty much this. They are too slow.



There is one problem though.

Tobirama will have a hard time killing Orochimaru.


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## Mercurial (Jun 29, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> There is one problem though.
> 
> Tobirama will have a hard time killing Orochimaru.


Not at all. He marks him every time and he teleports a fodder Edo Tensei to make him continuatively explode with Gojokibaku Fuda until Orochimaru can't tank and can't regenerate anymore. 

Jiraiya and/or Tsunade would just lose their heads to Hiraishingiri.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Jun 29, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well....Minato didn't take them both on at the same time...lmao.


Never said he did , but he beat up Tobi's ass , and then teleported Kurama's TBB away , end removed Tobi's control over Kurama , and then sealed it


Sapherosth said:


> On the contrary, if you want to play that way, it was Obito+Kyuubi vs Minato, 3rd Hokage and the rest of Konoha


The rest of Konoha ? the rest of Konoha were running like rats when Kurama attacked the village 


Sapherosth said:


> Oh yeah, Minato never "defeated" Kurama


He protected the village from it , and sealed it within him and his son , this alone takes a big crap on Tobirama getting killed by Kin/Gin 


Sapherosth said:


> Not sure what you're smoking.


Not the shit you smoke , that's for sure 


Sapherosth said:


> Last I checked, Minato had no other option than to seal it


I guess that means , Itachi didn't defeat Oro or Nagato , because he only sealed them ? 


Sapherosth said:


> Does that mean Kushina is stronger than Kyuubi?


No , that means the Uzumaki's Fuinjutsu is THAT good


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 29, 2016)

How do you know that Kin and Gin didn't use V2 and where is even Mentioned that they or even one of them killed Tobirama!?

As far as we know neither was in the Kinkaku Force!


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## Sapherosth (Jun 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Never said he did , but he beat up Tobi's ass , and then teleported Kurama's TBB away , end removed Tobi's control over Kurama , and then sealed it
> 
> The rest of Konoha ? the rest of Konoha were running like rats when Kurama attacked the village
> 
> ...




Orochimaru and Nagato can only be stopped by sealing them 


Kurama CAN be killed, but Minato just lacked the means to do it, which is why he went suicide mode.


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## Android (Jun 29, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> How do you know that Kin and Gin didn't use V2


Because after Kin went V2 against Darui , Kakuzu said this  :
" Heh , Kinkaku look like this , only when Ginkaku is done for " 
which implays that they didn't go V2 against Tobirama , because both Kinkaku and Ginkaku were fine after they defeated the second hokage 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> where is even Mentioned that they or even one of them killed Tobirama!?


In the manga 
Don't get me wrong please , i actually love Tobirama , he's a great character , and i wish kishi didn't mistreat him with this Kin/Gin thing 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> As far as we know neither was in the Kinkaku Force!


I think they were , otherwise why would the manga say that they killed him


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## ARGUS (Jun 29, 2016)

Tobirama is *far* above the sannin.  
there is a tier gap  atleast.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 29, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Because after Kin went V2 against Darui , Kakuzu said this  :
> " Heh , Kinkaku look like this , only when Ginkaku is done for "
> which implays that they didn't go V2 against Tobirama , because both Kinkaku and Ginkaku were fine after they defeated the second hokage
> 
> ...


Kishi indeed has made bad mistakes in developing and showing Tobirama character no doubt there.

Well we don't know how th fight went and what happened I find it highly unlikely for two Kage not be able to endanger at least one of them even in an ambush,what Kakuzu said may also mean that the one acts out of rage and loses his temper only when the other is in grave or mortal danger. I really don't think they can beat two Kage one of which with FTG without their Kyubi Cloak.

Where in the Manga is said they killed him,I really can't remember my friend,sorry!


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## LostSelf (Jun 29, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Do we even know how powerful Izuna was though?
> 
> If Izuna was anywhere near as powerful as Madara, Tobirama would not have lost to Kin/Gin even with a Raikage as back-up.



Their gap shouldn't have been that big. Both MS users (wich proves to be very powerful) in a village that abused Izanagi, and Tobirama was on par with that guy, as well. I don't think Kishi made them both far apart, until Madara gained EMS.

We also make a huge mistake saying Tobirama might be weaker than he is when we don't know half of the squadron that faced him. And sometimes rank doesn't mean much. Just look at Kakashi and Gai, who are Jounin and are easily Kage-Level.

The squad that ambushed Tobi and the other Raikage, wich, mind you, an ambush helps a lot. Just see Zetsu ambushing Madara when he doesn't expect it, could've been full of Kakashis and Gais, or full of people like Asuma. Powerful squadron and ambush. (I think they met twice? Either way, the squadron's most members ar unknown).

Kishi also makes statements that feats doesn't back up sometimes. Like Hanzo's. But i think the Kinkaku Force were much stronger than what we in this forum give them credit for. They killed a man that survived war against Uchihas, against Madara himself, earning Madara's respect of being the fastest, etc. So they should've been powerful.



The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara, Izuna, Hashirama, and Tobirama were all supposed to be roughly equal to each other, with the Senju brothers having the edge.  Izuna being the Tobirama of Madara's side, supposedly equal to MS Madara, and Madara only definitely surpassed him when he took his eyes and got EMS.  Of course EMS Madara lost to Hashirama, who, in response to Madara's dramatic rise in power, uhh, tried harder the next day.



Also, this.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Turrin (Jun 29, 2016)

There is no such thing as Sannin level. Tobirama is certainly superior to Orochimaru and Tsunade. It's debatable when it comes to Jiraiya, but I do place him a shade better than Jiraiya as well.


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## Isaiah13000 (Jun 29, 2016)

I'd put Tobirama above Jiraiya and Tsunade, but not above Orochimaru at his strongest.


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## Mithos (Jun 29, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Madara, Izuna, Hashirama, and Tobirama were all supposed to be roughly equal to each other, with the Senju brothers having the edge.  Izuna being the Tobirama of Madara's side, supposedly equal to MS Madara, and Madara only definitely surpassed him when he took his eyes and got EMS.  Of course EMS Madara lost to Hashirama, who, in response to Madara's dramatic rise in power, uhh, tried harder the next day.



Except Hashirama is far more powerful than Tobirama is. And Tobirama, as far as I can remember, has never been portrayed as being near the same level as Madara.



LostSelf said:


> Their gap shouldn't have been that big. Both MS users (wich proves to be very powerful) in a village that abused Izanagi, and Tobirama was on par with that guy, as well. I don't think Kishi made them both far apart, until Madara gained EMS.
> 
> We also make a huge mistake saying Tobirama might be weaker than he is when we don't know half of the squadron that faced him. And sometimes rank doesn't mean much. Just look at Kakashi and Gai, who are Jounin and are easily Kage-Level.
> 
> ...



I find it hard to believe there was a squadron of 20 Kakashi level ninja. It's even unlikely with 20 Asuma level ninja, if we judge by Konoha's strength in Part I and II. Sure we don't know who they were, but someone supposedly around Madara's level would not lose to them.

And that still doesn't change the fact that even with back-up he got his ass kicked by Gin/Kin. While they're far from weak, his loss makes it hard for me to believe that he's far superior to the Sannin.

Then in DBIV, Kishi says Hiruzen was more talented than Tobirama from a young age, possibly suggesting Hiruzen's superiority. 

Really, I've seen nothing that suggests Tobirama is anywhere near as strong as some on this forum think he is. His feats, portrayal, and character statements suggest otherwise.

And Izuna having MS doesn't tell us a whole lot. Not really. Sasuke had MS when he attacked the Kage summit, but he got his ass handed to him.

Tobirama is strong, and I don't have a problem believing he's a little stronger than the Sannin, but anyone who thinks he wipes the floor with them is kidding themselves.

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 29, 2016)

Madara said that for as strong as Tobirama was, there is now a gulf between their powers.  Translation:  You used to be on my level, but now you ain't.  FOR REASONS.

Tobirama was the cool speedy intelligent counterpart to Hashirama's dorky impassioned power.  I agree that Hashirama is way stronger than he's stated to be.  Actually, they all are.  But even though he's way better, that doesn't mean that the rest of the three aren't around the same level, and that doesn't mean that they weren't all way above everyone else.  The plot doesn't really make sense, because their deaths were written before the series raised them so far above the universe that it no longer made sense for them to die in the way they did.  Gin/Kin's squad logically had to be filled with 20 kage who can null hiraishin.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 29, 2016)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Gin/Kin's squad logically had to be filled with 20 kage who can null hiraishin.



Not at all

Tobiramas war arc feats shit all over kin/gins than this opion up many option suchs as

1) Tobirama along with kin/gin got retconned to hell just like a thousand other things
2) That we have no idea WTF took place prior or during that period
3) We know Tobirama had a mark on the hokage mountain so why not teleport his group?
4) Why couldnt Tobirama create clones or use edo tensei to delay them while they escape
5) Why couldnt Tobirama mark one of his students then use his real self to delay them long enough so they could escape then teleport to them before his death
6) Did Tobirama kill the entire elite squad before his death like a boss?
7) Were they even part of the squad since they were outkasts by then?

People also like to downplay kin/gin power due to the exchange with darui. Darui had massive intel on the sage weapons abilities and got away with one hell of a PIS moment. Kin even with the first division having massive intel damn near wiped out the first division alone. Raikage also thought they were important enough for him to join the battle even knowing Mu, Trollkage, and his father were also reserected.  Without intel on the sage weapons kin/gin damn near have the ability to beat anyone bar shinobi of Madara/ Hashirama calibur and above

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jun 29, 2016)

I'm not sure Gin and Kin were part of the Kumo squad.  They were ousted from Kumo after Tobirama and Nidaime Sandaime beat them during their attempted coup, which took place before the squad killed Tobirama.  The squad that had their name wouldn't have contained them, or had the sealing tools that the brother took with them when they left.  

Unless the squad both wasn't killed during the coup, left with them, and then decided to go kill Tobirama for the lolz.


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## LostSelf (Jun 29, 2016)

Mithos said:


> Except Hashirama is far more powerful than Tobirama is. And Tobirama, as far as I can remember, has never been portrayed as being near the same level as Madara.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hashirama is far more powerful, but that doesn't have nothing to do with MS Madara. Hashirama was also far more powerful than MS Madara. And he was the one that schooled Mu and Suigetsu.

We don't know how powerful they were. I don't mean Part 2 Kakashis or Gai. Part 1 Gai and Kakashi, 20 of them plus Gin and Kin are enough to kill either Sannin as well (Using them as comparison because it's the purpose of the thread). But they could've been, remember Gai had the 8th gate since part 1, probably. Or at least, 7th gates. I think either Sannin would've died in Tobirama's place. Hiruzen is also more talented, yea. He was labelled as the god of Shinobi. That also puts him above the Sannin.

Well, him beating Izuna, Madara saying something with Tobirama being on his level once, said Madara schooling Muu and Onoki might be his help, IMO. Sasuke had MS for sure. But he was not as experienced with it, and fighting 5 Kages is far more difficult than fighting two. Either Sannin would've died in Sasuke's place as well.

What do you mean with Hashirama being far more powerful than Izuna? I mean, i agree. The only Madara that stands up to Hashirama is the EMS one, wich is far above Izuna. But Madara didn't need EMS to take down Mu and Onoki. Maybe he only needed MS, wich might put him on par with Izuna and Tobi. Like PoW said, of Tobi was sometime on his level.


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 30, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Is Tobirama above Sannin-level


*Nope.* But he's above Itachi level I can tell you that.


Hussain said:


> No, they are all stronger than him.





cctr9 said:


> Not exactly
> 
> How the f**k is getting " freaking floored " by kinkaku and ginkaku a better portrayl
> They did not even show any respect for his abilities like Madara with Hashirama , Tobi with Minato , or Pain with Jiraiya
> They blatantly stated that they " freaking wiped the floor with him "


I know right.

Anyway, any of the Sannin beat him High Diff.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## StarWanderer (Jun 30, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> *Nope.* But he's above Itachi level I can tell you that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Jiraya cant react to him, so he dies.

Tsunade cant react to him, so she dies.

Orochimaru can be killed if Tobirama has ET.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 30, 2016)

StarWanderer said:


> Jiraya cant react to him, so he dies.


Sage Mode
Anyway Pain > Tobirama



> Tsunade cant react to him, so she dies.


So? She has Regeneration, Katsuyu, Terrain Manipulation and all sorts



> Orochimaru can be killed if Tobirama has ET.


Tobirama kills him how? Cuts him up? Well neurotoxins say hi. And then bye.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 30, 2016)

The only Sannin who has a chance is Orochimaru,and even against him I think Tobirama can win!


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## IzayaOrihara (Jun 30, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> The only Sannin who has a chance is Orochimaru,and even against him I think Tobirama can win!


Wrong. Any of them beat him.

But anyway I'll allow y'all to believe what you want.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 2


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## ARGUS (Jun 30, 2016)

lets see what matters more 

 -- Kin/gin instances where their power was retconned and where we don't know any circumstances of the battle 

Or

 -- actual manga events and feats of tobirama where we could easily keep up with the likes of KCM minato, KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. All of whom could solo all the sannin together

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Jun 30, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> The only Sannin who has a chance is Orochimaru,and even against him I think Tobirama can win!


I disagree

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jun 30, 2016)

ARGUS said:


> -- actual manga events and feats of tobirama where we could easily keep up with the likes of KCM minato, KCM Naruto and EMS Sasuke. All of whom could solo all the sannin together


He only survived thanks to Obito not having Onmyuton or whatever the hell it's called , when he fodderized him in half , otherwise he would've been over before the fight could even start 
Alive Tobirama got " floored " twice by Kin/Gin , and that's a fact people gonna have to learn to deal with it 

With all due respect to @ARGUS and @Second Hokage Tobirama


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jun 30, 2016)

And the Sannin can each bear Kin/Gin 2 vs 1,heck they can't beat them even 2 VS 3. They simply can't beat two Power Monsters with Kyubi Mode and Rokkudou Tools,especially if they don't have detailed information on their Abilities!

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And the Sannin can each bear Kin/Gin 2 vs 1,heck they can't beat them even 2 VS 3. They simply can't beat two Power Monsters with Kyubi Mode and Rokkudou Tools,especially if they don't have detailed information on their Abilities!


Jiraiya was stated to be above Itachi (Yeah stay salty haters) , and he took on Pain and was said that he could've defeated him if he had full knowledge 
Pain >>> Tobirama , so don't tell me Jiraiya can't beat Tobirama or Kin/Gin , plus he has the seal that can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra , so he can beat them , problem ? 
Orochimaru in a very weak form took on Naruto in his 4 tails form , and he also has a special seal that can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra like he did to Naruto in the death forest during the CE 
War arc Oro is evern faaaaar greater and stronger , and he has a strong Edo tensei , problem ?  
Jiraiya was trained under the great Toad Sage " Gamamaru " , the same Toad sage who was a friend with Otsutsuki Hagoromo , and Jiraiya was traveling the world , so he damn sure knows about the rikudou tools , problem ? 
Orochimaru is like a dated and a Archaeologist, always doing researchs and stuff to gain power , so he damn sure knows about the rikudou tools , problem ? 
The only argument that can be made is against Tsunade 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> they can't beat them even 2 VS 3


Oh boy 
Anyway , like i said before , Kin/Gin did not even use V2 against Tobirama *and his team *


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 1, 2016)

You want to tell me that Jiraya can fight against 2 V2 6 Tails pseudo jins who have full control on their actions and mind!? While he barely subdued 4 Tails Naruto,although Jiraya wasn't going for the kill there! 

All Oro did was survive long enough for Yamato to subdue Naruto,and all he can do against 2 6 Tails Kyubi Modes is to exhaust himself and die eventually.

And Tsunade loses most easily of the three!


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Jiraiya was stated to be above Itachi (Yeah stay salty haters) , and he took on Pain and was said that he could've defeated him if he had full knowledge
> Pain >>> Tobirama , so don't tell me Jiraiya can't beat Tobirama or Kin/Gin , plus he has the seal that can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra , so he can beat them , problem ?
> Orochimaru in a very weak form took on Naruto in his 4 tails form , and he also has a special seal that can suppress the Kyuubi's chakra like he did to Naruto in the death forest during the CE
> War arc Oro is evern faaaaar greater and stronger , and he has a strong Edo tensei , problem ?
> ...








> Jiraiya was stated to be above Itachi (Yeah stay salty haters) , and he took on Pain and was said that he could've defeated him if he had full knowledge




Jiraiya was never stated to be above Itachi. Obito stated Itachi could've killed him if Itachi knew his secret. Obito > Sannin. So don't tell me Itachi can't beat Sannin. Kisame also said Itachi could've taken on Jiraiya.

Come at me.

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> You want to tell me that Jiraya can fight against 2 V2 6 Tails pseudo jins who have full control on their actions and mind!?


Yes . because  :
- He can fight against and beat someone like Itachi .
- Kisame stated that Jiraiya was faaaaaaaar above him , and we all know that Kisame took on and defeated many jinchuurikis , in fact Kisame was called " the tail-less Bijuu " .
- Jiraiya can take on Pain , the same Pain who also captured many Jinchuurikis .
- Jiraiya is very suited to fight V2 Jinchuurikis with his Senjutsu , his Fuinjutsu , his Toad army , his defense and offense .


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> although Jiraya wasn't going for the kill there!


There you go 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> All Oro did was survive long enough for Yamato to subdue Naruto,and all he can do against 2 6 Tails Kyubi Modes is to exhaust himself and die eventually.


OMG no ! Oro was almost armless , jutsuless , weak , and sick , and still fight on par with 4 tails Naruto , hit for a hit , and even counter his strongest TBB 
- Kin/Gin can't even use TBB 
Like i said War arc Oro is stronger than BOS Oro
Far stronger i might add 


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And Tsunade loses most easily of the three!


Tsunade was giving troubles to Madara , the same Madara who easily finished off Tobirama 
Wait , not the same Madara , it was sage mode Madara , but still


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Jiraiya was never stated to be above Itachi. Obito stated Itachi could've killed him if Itachi knew his secret. Obito > Sannin. So don't tell me Itachi can't beat Sannin. Kisame also said Itachi could've taken on Jiraiya.


Yes , Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi , Pain stated that Jiraiya could've defeated him with full knowledge , Pain > Itachi . 
Obito also hyped Jiraiya , even when he was a Juubi Jinchuuriki , and said " I guess you could say , i was defeated by Jiraiya Sensei " 
To me , that is far greater than Hashirama wanking Itachi " he puts a shinobi like me to shame " , since Juubito >>> Hashirama


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 1, 2016)

What Juubito said was in the same sense as when Minato said to Naruto that it was the Shinobi World/System that killed Jiraya same here it is just that Jiraya student someone who inherited his Spirit and Will defeated him! 

And it is the same as Hashirama saying that for Itachi,he meant that Itachi had to endure much more which made him better Shinobi in a way but nothing to do with who is stronger!


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yes , Jiraiya is stronger than Itachi , Pain stated that Jiraiya could've defeated him with full knowledge , Pain > Itachi .
> Obito also hyped Jiraiya , even when he was a Juubi Jinchuuriki , and said " I guess you could say , i was defeated by Jiraiya Sensei "
> To me , that is far greater than Hashirama wanking Itachi " he puts a shinobi like me to shame " , since Juubito >>> Hashirama





Lol....Obito wasn't defeated by Jiraiya. He was defeated by the IDEOLOGY. That's like me saying Itachi > Hashirama because he said Itachi was a better Shinobi. That's stupid. It's also the same as me saying Black Zetsu stated that Itachi was invincible (despite knowing of SOT6P and Kaguya) does that mean it's true?  

Your logic is flawed.

Anyways, Obito > Pain, so if Itachi can beat Obito with knowledge on his secret (which neither BM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai or Killer Bee could do on their own even with knowledge) that would also mean Itachi > all those guys as well? 

Once again your logic is flawed. Just admit it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol....Obito wasn't defeated by Jiraiya. He was defeated by the IDEOLOGY.


That is what i am implaying you fool 
I didn't mean that Itachi or Jiraiya can beat Hashirama or Juubito 
I was comparing hype 


Sapherosth said:


> Your logic is flawed.


Your comprehension is flawed 


Sapherosth said:


> Anyways, Obito > Pain


MS Obito ? No , he is not , and Pain is above Itachi . End of story


Sapherosth said:


> which neither BM Naruto, Kakashi, Gai or Killer Bee could do on their own even with knowledge



That was Rinnegan Obito + the Gedo Mazo + 7 Bijuu who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> MS Obito
Itachi can't even deal with his new Pain , let alone Obito with full power


Sapherosth said:


> Once again your logic is flawed.


Really M8 ????? Really ?????


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> What Juubito said was in the same sense as when Minato said to Naruto that it was the Shinobi World/System that killed Jiraya same here it is just that Jiraya student someone who inherited his Spirit and Will defeated him!
> 
> And it is the same as Hashirama saying that for Itachi,he meant that Itachi had to endure much more which made him better Shinobi in a way but nothing to do with who is stronger!


Thanks for proving my point


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> That is what i am implaying you fool
> I didn't mean that Itachi or Jiraiya can beat Hashirama or Juubito
> I was comparing hype
> 
> ...




Lol...the one thing that kept Obito in the game was his MS technique.....Kamui........Neither Rinnegan OR Jin were giving them a big problem at all. Granted it's what allowed him to take them all on at the same time, if we take the rinnegan/jins away from him, he can still take on any of them individually.

Obito can deal with Pain actually....His technique can counter literally every he has and he can pick apart each body individually. Add to that with IZANAGI which can take Pain by surprise. 

Oh yeah, the "hype" we were comparing with was STRENGTH HYPE, not who is the better Ninja or who has the best Ideology. I guess you're just getting desperate and being intellectually dishonest just to try and have something to say. 


Once again, your logic is flawed.


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Lol...the one thing that kept Obito in the game was his MS technique.....Kamui........Neither Rinnegan OR Jin were giving them a big problem at all. Granted it's what allowed him to take them all on at the same time, if we take the rinnegan/jins away from him, he can still take on any of them individually.


 
First of all , they all had to fight his 5 Bijuu , Kakashi , Gai , Naruto , and Bee were all in a far weaker state , Second of all Hachibi NEVER engaged with Obito , and Kakashi too exept for the time when he throw his Kunai and when he wraped Naruto's Rasengan , at all , Third of all , they had no knowledge at the begining , but they all reacted to him and kept up with his Kamui
Even base Gai 
Once they figured out how his Kamui works , Obito was f**ked , no ? 
A clone from Naruto and Kakashi's Kamui kicked his ass 
And the second time even Kurama tricked him and made him look like a fool
Even Konan gave him troubles when she figured out how his Kamui works 
And forced him to use Izanagi 


Sapherosth said:


> Obito can deal with Pain actually....His technique can counter literally every he has and he can pick apart each body individually. Add to that with IZANAGI which can take Pain by surprise.


Nop , Pain can counter Obito , shared vision + fast reflexes counters Kamui , and Obito gets killed when he solidify to attack , and if Obito wrap away a Path or two , you know what will happen to him 


Sapherosth said:


> I guess you're just getting desperate and being intellectually dishonest just to try and have something to say.


Reflecting your despair on me eh ?? nice try 
I'm cool as ice , the manga made it clear that Jiraiya is above Itachi , and that is a fact people will have to deal with it


Sapherosth said:


> Once again, your logic is flawed.


Once again , you're reaching too much


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Any way , @Sapherosth and @Second Hokage Tobirama , going to sleep right now , see ya !

Reactions: Like 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 1, 2016)

Have a good sleep mate!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 1, 2016)

I don't know why people feel as if there is something wrong with Gin&Kin being > Tobirama. DBIV specifically states that someone able to use the tools proficiently has power surpassing any Gokage. Now this of course refers to the present Gokage, but that still means that both Gin and Kin are > Onoki, as both Gin and Kin can use the treasures interchangably & proficiently. So Tobirama being defeated by guys stronger than Onoki, is really not that surprising. And this level of power is certainly portrayed clearly in the manga. Amber-Jar's Fuuinjutsu was great enough to casually seal the second strongest Bijuu, a Bijuu that one it's own stalemated the strongest Raikage; and later was able to seal V2-Kinkaku w/o issue ether. Likewise the Crimson gourd was able to seal Ginkaku and Darui w/ no issue. Banana-Fan's elemental Jutsu were strong enough to clash at least evenly w/ Kakuzu's, even when wielded by Tenten, as we saw Banana-Fan's Wind Elemental Blast whipe out Kakuzu's Raiton Masked Beast. Given these displays, it's not surprising that someone able to wield the treasures proficiently would be > Onoki, especially when you than consider the immense amount of raw power needed to be proficient with the tools, and how powerful someone needs to be just to wield them; in Gin/Kin's case this meant having the ability to enter V2 KN6 another very powerful ability, considering a KN6 Jin was owning on Deva Path and required Chibaku Tensei to contain. Additionally Ei's reaction to Gin and Kin's threat being greater than even his own father's threat, also speaks volumes towards their intended "power-level". 

So it's not really Gin & Kin's portrayal that makes it unbelievable that Tobirama lost to them, it's Gin and Kin's performance in the battle w/ Darui. However I think Gin&Kin are more victims of the sloppy writing of the war arc there than anything else. Kishimoto really didn't spend enough time on certain characters and concepts, resulting in many unquantifiable aspects that could largely explain the performances of many characters. For example it's implied that the dead characters are inferior to their living selves because they lack the will they once had in life, we know this is a big thing for Kishimoto, but Kishi still never is clear about how big of a thing it really is. Like-wise Kishimoto doesn't spend enough time fleshing out just how disadvantage the dead are, when it comes to lacking tools they had in life and the enemy having detailed knowledge of them, again it's implied in several instances, and we can see that w/ Gin & Kin lacking the Amber-Jar, and the knowledge Kumo had on them, but it's never completely quantified. Like-wise some major characters in the War-Arc were rushed; Darui is made a division commander the same rank as Gaara & Kakashi two extremely skilled Shinobi, so perhaps Kishimoto wants us to see Darui as around their level, but because Darui's only match is against an equally somewhat unquantifiable Gin/Kin as they only have a fight against Darui on panel, and because Kitsuchi and Mifune are also Division Commanders but also have unquantifiable levels and are rushed we can't really make that call or in general place Darui's exact strength. I tend to believe more and more that was Kishimoto's intention though and Darui, Mifune, and Kitsuchi are criminally underrated, especially considering Darui is made Raikage in the flash-forward, but it's hard to defend position due to Kishi rushing their character arcs.

Ontop of that the writting itself was just sloppy when it comes to Gin and Kin. Darui only prevailed due to the sheer luck of his favorite word changing, which is just BS dues ex machina and therefore has literally nothing to do w/ strength. And potentially w/o that and even w/ the division having the Amber-Jar instead of Gin&Kin, they may have been completely wiped out by Gin&Kin, so that too makes figuring out their strength from that fight very convoluted.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## IzayaOrihara (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Yes . because  :
> - He can fight against and beat someone like Itachi .
> - Kisame stated that Jiraiya was faaaaaaaar above him , and we all know that Kisame took on and defeated many jinchuurikis , in fact Kisame was called " the tail-less Bijuu " .
> - Jiraiya can take on Pain , the same Pain who also captured many Jinchuurikis .
> ...


i second this

No need for me to waste your time @StarWanderer, everything I would have said is in this post

Ill only add, BOS Oro is enough to beat Tobirama. Maybe even KN4 fight, cos the Jinchuriki he fought was the real one, not the fake ones, and had TBB, unlike KinGin. Tobirama goes down to Neurotoxin after using Hiraishingiri, falling into the same trap Sasuke did. And might I add, Sasuke has a Sharingan, some degree of poison resistance, is a main character and did research on Orochimaru before he fought him. So yeah, Orochimaru beats him. Jiraiya didnt go al ut against KN4 cos he didnt want to hurt Naruto. If Nerfed Orochimaru can go toe to toe with KN4, is Full Powered Jiraiya gonna go down without a fight? Tsunade uses terrain manipulation to keep Tobirama away and outlasts him (Senju + Uzumaki reserves/resilience + Yin Seal reserves + Medical Ninja's perfect chakra control > Senju Reserves). It might sound silly at first, but is Tobirama even gonna tag her when she can use Byakugo Level Sakura terrain manipulation (she did so as a 5 year old brat, now she is a 55 year old Byakugo Mode using shinobi)

@Turrin - very good post. At the end of the day Tobirama is only a little below the Sannin. Like a subtier below them. They are all in High Kage tier though with the likes of Itachi and Pain etc etc.


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## LostSelf (Jul 1, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't know why people feel as if there is something wrong with Gin&Kin being > Tobirama. DBIV specifically states that someone able to use the tools proficiently has power surpassing any Gokage. Now this of course refers to the present Gokage, but that still means that both Gin and Kin are > Onoki, as both Gin and Kin can use the treasures interchangably & proficiently. So Tobirama being defeated by guys stronger than Onoki, is really not that surprising. And this level of power is certainly portrayed clearly in the manga. Amber-Jar's Fuuinjutsu was great enough to casually seal the second strongest Bijuu, a Bijuu that one it's own stalemated the strongest Raikage; and later was able to seal V2-Kinkaku w/o issue ether. Likewise the Crimson gourd was able to seal Ginkaku and Darui w/ no issue. Banana-Fan's elemental Jutsu were strong enough to clash at least evenly w/ Kakuzu's, even when wielded by Tenten, as we saw Banana-Fan's Wind Elemental Blast whipe out Kakuzu's Raiton Masked Beast. Given these displays, it's not surprising that someone able to wield the treasures proficiently would be > Onoki, especially when you than consider the immense amount of raw power needed to be proficient with the tools, and how powerful someone needs to be just to wield them; in Gin/Kin's case this meant having the ability to enter V2 KN6 another very powerful ability, considering a KN6 Jin was owning on Deva Path and required Chibaku Tensei to contain. Additionally Ei's reaction to Gin and Kin's threat being greater than even his own father's threat, also speaks volumes towards their intended "power-level".
> 
> So it's not really Gin & Kin's portrayal that makes it unbelievable that Tobirama lost to them, it's Gin and Kin's performance in the battle w/ Darui. However I think Gin&Kin are more victims of the sloppy writing of the war arc there than anything else. Kishimoto really didn't spend enough time on certain characters and concepts, resulting in many unquantifiable aspects that could largely explain the performances of many characters. For example it's implied that the dead characters are inferior to their living selves because they lack the will they once had in life, we know this is a big thing for Kishimoto, but Kishi still never is clear about how big of a thing it really is. Like-wise Kishimoto doesn't spend enough time fleshing out just how disadvantage the dead are, when it comes to lacking tools they had in life and the enemy having detailed knowledge of them, again it's implied in several instances, and we can see that w/ Gin & Kin lacking the Amber-Jar, and the knowledge Kumo had on them, but it's never completely quantified. Like-wise some major characters in the War-Arc were rushed; Darui is made a division commander the same rank as Gaara & Kakashi two extremely skilled Shinobi, so perhaps Kishimoto wants us to see Darui as around their level, but because Darui's only match is against an equally somewhat unquantifiable Gin/Kin as they only have a fight against Darui on panel, and because Kitsuchi and Mifune are also Division Commanders but also have unquantifiable levels and are rushed we can't really make that call or in general place Darui's exact strength. I tend to believe more and more that was Kishimoto's intention though and Darui, Mifune, and Kitsuchi are criminally underrated, especially considering Darui is made Raikage in the flash-forward, but it's hard to defend position due to Kishi rushing their character arcs.
> 
> Ontop of that the writting itself was just sloppy when it comes to Gin and Kin. Darui only prevailed due to the sheer luck of his favorite word changing, which is just BS dues ex machina and therefore has literally nothing to do w/ strength. And potentially w/o that and even w/ the division having the Amber-Jar instead of Gin&Kin, they may have been completely wiped out by Gin&Kin, so that too makes figuring out their strength from that fight very convoluted.



I gotta aplaud this post. Finally! People are mistreating Gin and Kin. In fact,most of these people mistreating them are people who rely on portrayal, manga reactions and statements of other characters. Yet, here, they don't?

Gin and Kin were portrayed to be very powerful. And, like i said, they had backup. I keep saying it,Gin/Kin would've defeated either Sannin (not counting Edo Tensei) as well.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Sapherosth (Jul 1, 2016)

IzayaOrihara said:


> i second this
> 
> No need for me to waste your time @StarWanderer, everything I would have said is in this post
> 
> ...



The Sannin wank is strong with this one.....Despite an on panel rape that Pain and Itachi gave to the Sannins, he still believes the Sannin is in a tier above them. The same Orochimaru Sannin who was shitting himself when Tobirama was releasing his chakra.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 1, 2016)

Just ignore the trolls and move on

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Duhul10 (Jul 1, 2016)

There is no sannin level. SM Jiraiya is the strongest ( maybe bar part 2 ET Oro ), while Tsunade should be the weakest. ( out of the sannin group)
As for the match-up, I only see SM Jiraiya being able to go toe to toe with Tobirama and even go for a 50/50. Oro might do it to because of his durability.
Izuna is being overrated in order to overrate Tobirama. The second Hokage Is only a cut above Sm Jiraiya overall.


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## SenPAIN (Jul 1, 2016)

I would say that Tobirama is at the sannin level or below this, perhaps at a jounin level.
Btw almost nothing was shown about him, i would love see Tobirama killing some Uchiha's in fillers, must have been very difficult to Hashirama have a brother like that.
A good Uchiha is a dead Uchiha.


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Jiraiya >>> Itachi . Deal . With . It

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 1, 2016)

Bloodina said:


> I would say that Tobirama is at the sannin level or below this, perhaps at a jounin level.
> Btw almost nothing was shown about him, i would love see Tobirama killing some Uchiha's in fillers, must have been very difficult to Hashirama have a brother like that.
> A good Uchiha is a dead Uchiha.


True that Kishi showed nearly nothing to support how truly strong was Tobirama but what he gave us is enough to know he is not on Jounin Level mate.

He killed Madaras near equal,Madara said they were close in power in life,he had monstrous Speed ,Reflexes,not to mention Intellect. One finger amd Chakra Surge were meant to show how much power he has but Kishi failed to display it later... still he managed to brake free from Oro ET till Oro used the recently obtained Hashirama DNA,guess what would have happened if he didn't had then!? 

So yes,Tobirama is definitely no Jounin Level and is above Sannin Level! 

Also about Kin/Gin I never found it weird to lose to them with all their Power and Tools and especially without Knowledge on them.They can beat every Kage bar Hashirama...especially 2 vs 1,they are Monster Powerhouses for sure...what I find it weird is why didn't Tobirama FTG away against them,or when the 20 Elite Ninja were against him!


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> They can beat every Kage bar Hashirama.


They can't beat Minato , or Naruto who's a million times stronger than Shodai , problem ?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 1, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> They can't beat Minato , or Naruto who's a million times stronger than Shodai , problem ?


Oh yeah forgot that Naruto is a Kage too,my bad there! 

About Minato hmm not seeing him win except with Shiki Fujin if you can call that a win!


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> About Minato hmm not seeing him win except with Shiki Fujin if you can call that a win!


He also has Fuinjutsu that can suppress the Kyuubi chakra , 8 trigrames seals , Rasengan Variants , and FTG variants 
He tookon the kyuubi who is a millions times stronger than KinGin , the Same Kyuubi 
Who eat KinGin alive literlly !


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## Icegaze (Jul 1, 2016)

Turrin post was solid
if we take what was intended for the kin gin and their items it's not too surprising that they would be able to beat Tobirama
It's all about type match ups

Their sealing rope hard and both gourds counters ET. Their V2 forms hard counters Tobirama speed as he would be hard pressed to damage them

Even if the excuse is they only go V2 when one is defeated

That still leaves V1 which is still rather durable

Tobirama 5 use of elements is countered by their fan

So anyhow u slice it

Stacking up their jutsu against Tobirama's there isn't an actual reason they shouldn't beat him

Tobirama helped against juubito as a support based on use of 2 specific jutsu . Hiradhin and ET (himself )

As discussed ET if he uses them himself would be hard countered

Kin/gin also hard counter orochimaru 
ET would be countered 
Oro durability is countered by the rope
Oro attacks are countered by their durability 
Oro elemental jutsu is countered by their fan 

Tsunade and Jiriaya stand a better chance but even then tsunade durability is hard countered 

Not sure why kin/gin are understimated 

Would be like only remembering deidara got blitz by sai


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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 1, 2016)

Thats why I said kin/gin + tools would pretty much beat anyone bar Madara & Hashirama level and above


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## Itachі (Jul 1, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> I gotta aplaud this post. Finally! People are mistreating Gin and Kin. In fact,most of these people mistreating them are people who rely on portrayal, manga reactions and statements of other characters. Yet, here, they don't?
> 
> Gin and Kin were portrayed to be very powerful. And, like i said, they had backup. I keep saying it,Gin/Kin would've defeated either Sannin (not counting Edo Tensei) as well.



Absolutely agree with this.


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## kageturk (Jul 1, 2016)

Anyone who thinks Tobirama isn't three orders of magnitude above Tsunade, comfortably above Jiraiya and respectably above Orochimaru must have begun this series with Shippuden.

Reactions: Disagree 1 | Dislike 1


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 1, 2016)

kageturk said:


> Anyone who thinks Tobirama isn't three orders of magnitude above Tsunade, comfortably above Jiraiya and respectably above Orochimaru must have begun this series with Shippuden.


Really? That's interesting considering that back in Part 1 Hiruzen didn't believe that he could deal with Orochimaru himself (when he had no knowledge of Edo Tensei), and ultimately lost to Orochimaru while he was holding back (didn't use Manda and many of his other techs at all). Whilst he could handle both Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama himself (When back then, that was considered their actual strength and they were portrayed much weaker than Hiruzen in general). So there was absolutely nothing in Part 1 that suggested that Tobirama was above the Sannin... at all. It sounds more like you're the one who started the series at Shippuden.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 1, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Really? That's interesting considering that back in Part 1 Hiruzen didn't believe that he could deal with Orochimaru himself (when he had no knowledge of Edo Tensei), and ultimately lost to Orochimaru while he was holding back (didn't use Manda and many of his other techs at all). Whilst he could handle both Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama himself (When back then, that was considered their actual strength and they were portrayed much weaker than Hiruzen in general). So there was absolutely nothing in Part 1 that suggested that Tobirama was above the Sannin... at all. It sounds more like you're the one who started the series at Shippuden.


I would rep+ you Isaiah , just too lazy to spread some right now , but i'll be back for this particular post


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## kageturk (Jul 2, 2016)

Isaiah13000 said:


> Really? That's interesting considering that back in Part 1 Hiruzen didn't believe that he could deal with Orochimaru himself (when he had no knowledge of Edo Tensei), and ultimately lost to Orochimaru while he was holding back (didn't use Manda and many of his other techs at all). Whilst he could handle both Edo Hashirama and Edo Tobirama himself (When back then, that was considered their actual strength and they were portrayed much weaker than Hiruzen in general). So there was absolutely nothing in Part 1 that suggested that Tobirama was above the Sannin... at all. It sounds more like you're the one who started the series at Shippuden.



Look kid, I was reading the manga while you were still in grade school, and participating in destroying fanboy arguments long before you had any capacity to read at all.

Considering the fact that you rate Nagato above Minato or Sasuke, some long-timers will get pissed at me for answering you, but here it goes:

1) The original series did not have power-inflation yet. You know what that means? Let me elaborate it for you, you won't find it on dictionary.com. Power inflation is the furtive aspect within a long running manga series (or mythos in general) that the longer you run a narrative, the more difficult it becomes to find a suitably powerful villain for your tricked up, advancing protagonists. In the first series Sarutobi was specifically referred to as "The God of Shinobi", and that Tobirama/Hashirama gave him the Hokage mantle in a peaceful spring day in Konoha. A lot of retcons glossed over many things.

2) Edo Hashirama and Tobirama used the scroll-kunai control method, the imperfect version of Edo Tensei that Kabuto perfected in Shippuden.

3) Tobirama created the 2 main jutsus that decided the fate of the final arc, whatever you say, whatever justification or bogus demagogy you type is utterly irrelevant. He had more of an impact on the world than the Sannin will ever have. This includes Jiraiya the Goddamn Great Bro-Tier Master of Naruto. Take out Tobirama from the equation, and NOTHING in the manga proceeds the way it does. He is key to everything. Perhaps even more so than Hashirama himself.

We, in storytelling, call that a catalyst. It's a Robert McKee school of thought term that denotes how one specific character was central in skill and aptitude to alter the flow of the entire narrative. Japanese fetishize this aspect, ever since Jippensha Ikku, the great author wrote his monolithic _Hizakurige-- _Japanese literature and comics have adopted the fact that narrative-alteration could only be done by the central or central-side character. This all means, to simplify it for you, that any character relevant enough to alter the series with his actions (directly or indirectly) is considered _Watakushi shōsetsu _which basically means a Confessional Character. They are considered the *winds that change the story world*.

Orochimaru references this, and those of us who aren't juvenile demagogues actually gave smiles of mirth when Orochimaru actually breaks the wall between literature in Naruto and the storyline.

Tobirama's aptitude in strategy, improvisation, jutsus and speed can't even be COMPARED to Tsunade. And although Jiraiya and Orochimaru are extremely talented Kage-level shinobi, Tobirama is above them in every conceivable way as well. Otherwise we'd have Orochimaru in the final fights, not the be-all end-all previous Kages. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy whose favorite character is Orochimaru. 

So listen to what your predecessors teach you. Don't be a slave to your sympathy or empathy for a specific shounen character. Be objective, be empirical. 

Don't be like one of the comical Pein-fanboys of yore who had to wait years to be demolished in arguments. The kids who kept praising Pein as above anyone in the manga/anime including Hashi or Tobi.

You don't see them around anymore do you? They're probably in a Danzo-bunker crying perpetually at the pulverization of their claims unable to log back in here.

Best,

--Oniisan

Reactions: Agree 1 | Disagree 1


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Absolutely agree with that mate.

I will only add that there are 3 not 2 crucial Jutsu which had such a Key role and that is FTG,without it the Alliance would have been destroyed few times and even Konoha when Obito Attacked!


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Absolutely agree with that mate.
> 
> I will only add that there are 3 not 2 crucial Jutsu which had such a Key role and that is FTG,without it the Alliance would have been destroyed few times and even Konoha when Obito Attacked!


yeah , but Jiraiya was Naruto's sensei , the man who took him under his wings , and put him on the paths to become who he is right now , not only this but , he's also the man whom Naruto walked carrying his willpower and ideology , and become the savior of this world , this is far better than any " key role " Tobirama had
And Jiraiya was more relevant than Tobirama could ever be TBH .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Let's not go there my friend.

If it wasn't for Tobirama and Hashirama,Hiruzen wouldn't have been who he is,then The Sannin including Jiraya wouldn't have been who they are,and Minato wouldn't have been who he is without Jiraya anx FTG and etc... you see this can go very long. And Naruto without KB and etc. and etc.

Everyone had his role,but Tobirama had quite the influence on the Future of the Shinobi World'

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Let's not go there my friend.
> 
> If it wasn't for Tobirama and Hashirama,Hiruzen wouldn't have been who he is,then The Sannin including Jiraya wouldn't have been who they are,and Minato wouldn't have been who he is without Jiraya anx FTG and etc... you see this can go very long. And Naruto without KB and etc. and etc.
> 
> Everyone had his role,but Tobirama had quite the influence on the Future of the Shinobi World'


Not exactly , Jiraiya was also training under the great toad sage , no ? 
And it was Jiraiya who had the biggest effect on Naruto anyway lol


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

My point is that if we go by that logic we can go all the way back to Hagoromo...


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> My point is that if we go by that logic we can go all the way back to Hagoromo...


Again , not exactly 
who was the man who took Naruto under his wings , when Kakashi neglected him ?
who was the man who helped Naruto with his chakra control problems ?
who was the man who teached him summoning techniques (which leads to him learning senjutsu) , Rasengan , taijutsu .....etc etc etc
Cuz sure as hell it wasn't Kakashi , Iruka , or Hiruzen 
who was the man who cared for Naruto , when Konoha (excluding Hinata , and Iruka sensei) treated him like crap ?
FTG saved the SA from getting killed ? guess what , it would've been useless without Naruto's chakra , no ?


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

And then if it wasn't Kaguya and then hwr Sons and etc. many people would not have been born or have those to Mentor them,accept them an etc. 

I hope you understand my friend,I mean not to be offensive or anything!


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> And then if it wasn't Kaguya and then hwr Sons and etc. many people would not have been born or have those to Mentor them,accept them an etc.


So , by this logic , do you love and appreciate you grand grand grand grandpa as much as you do for your father ?
By this logic , does this mean that your grand grand grand grandpa has the same influence on your life as your father ???!!!


Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I hope you understand my friend,I mean not to be offensive or anything!


Lol nothing but love m8 , nothing but love


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Wel things with my Father and etc. are complicated 

But what I mean is that everyone had their roles to play and some were more important that others.

But Jiraya having emotional influence on Naruto doesn't make him better or stronger than Tobirama. If it wasn't for Tobirama Techniques then neither Minato nor Naruto would have been what they are despite having Jiraya. Each of then had their own role but I think in a Term of Skills and etc. Tobirama wins!


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## Isaiah13000 (Jul 2, 2016)

kageturk said:


> Look kid, I was reading the manga while you were still in grade school, and participating in destroying fanboy arguments long before you had any capacity to read at all.


 Evidently not.



> Considering the fact that you rate Nagato above Minato or Sasuke, some long-timers will get pissed at me for answering you, but here it goes:


 I rate Nagato himself beyond them because that is how he was portrayed.



> 1) The original series did not have power-inflation yet. You know what that means? Let me elaborate it for you, you won't find it on dictionary.com. Power inflation is the furtive aspect within a long running manga series (or mythos in general) that the longer you run a narrative, the more difficult it becomes to find a suitably powerful villain for your tricked up, advancing protagonists. In the first series Sarutobi was specifically referred to as "The God of Shinobi", and that Tobirama/Hashirama gave him the Hokage mantle in a peaceful spring day in Konoha. A lot of retcons glossed over many things.


 Drop the superiority complex, I'm well-aware of what power inflation is.



> 2) Edo Hashirama and Tobirama used the scroll-kunai control method, the imperfect version of Edo Tensei that Kabuto perfected in Shippuden.
> 
> 3) Tobirama created the 2 main jutsus that decided the fate of the final arc, whatever you say, whatever justification or bogus demagogy you type is utterly irrelevant. He had more of an impact on the world than the Sannin will ever have. This includes Jiraiya the Goddamn Great Bro-Tier Master of Naruto. Take out Tobirama from the equation, and NOTHING in the manga proceeds the way it does. He is key to everything. Perhaps even more so than Hashirama himself.


 How does that at all put him above the Sannin? Being more relevant doesn't make you stronger.



> We, in storytelling, call that a catalyst. It's a Robert McKee school of thought term that denotes how one specific character was central in skill and aptitude to alter the flow of the entire narrative. Japanese fetishize this aspect, ever since Jippensha Ikku, the great author wrote his monolithic _Hizakurige-- _Japanese literature and comics have adopted the fact that narrative-alteration could only be done by the central or central-side character. This all means, to simplify it for you, that any character relevant enough to alter the series with his actions (directly or indirectly) is considered _Watakushi shōsetsu _which basically means a Confessional Character. They are considered the *winds that change the story world*.


 That's great, that still does not put him above the Sannin in actual ability though.



> Orochimaru references this, and those of us who aren't juvenile demagogues actually gave smiles of mirth when Orochimaru actually breaks the wall between literature in Naruto and the storyline.
> 
> Tobirama's aptitude in strategy, improvisation, jutsus and speed can't even be COMPARED to Tsunade. And although Jiraiya and Orochimaru are extremely talented Kage-level shinobi, Tobirama is above them in every conceivable way as well. Otherwise we'd have Orochimaru in the final fights, not the be-all end-all previous Kages. Keep in mind, this is coming from a guy whose favorite character is Orochimaru.


 No, that is not good reasoning at all. By that logic, Rock Lee is above all of the Sannin because he was put in one of the final fights in the Manga and they weren't.



> So listen to what your predecessors teach you. Don't be a slave to your sympathy or empathy for a specific shounen character. Be objective, be empirical.


 You've literally said pretty much nothing at all.



> Don't be like one of the comical Pein-fanboys of yore who had to wait years to be demolished in arguments. The kids who kept praising Pein as above anyone in the manga/anime including Hashi or Tobi.
> 
> You don't see them around anymore do you? They're probably in a Danzo-bunker crying perpetually at the pulverization of their claims unable to log back in here.
> 
> ...


 I'm not being anything like them, I'm simply calling out pure bullshit when I see it. If you're gonna respond with several paragraphs, then at least make it full of actual substance. Your entire post is just filled to the brim with retarded nonsense backed up by an aura of believed superior intellectual capacity and maturity. In reality, you've done nothing more than make yourself look like some kind of troll or complete joke.


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

kageturk said:


> Look kid, I was reading the manga while you were still in grade school, and participating in destroying fanboy arguments long before you had any capacity to read at all.
> 
> Considering the fact that you rate Nagato above Minato or Sasuke, some long-timers will get pissed at me for answering you, but here it goes:
> 
> ...



congratulations on making yourself look like a fucking retard

Reactions: Like 2


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## Muah (Jul 2, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> Tobirama is one tie above Orochimaru the strongest among the sannin .



Stop we all know jiriya was the strongest sannin. I think tobi was pverall more powerful but hes more or less equal to jiriya.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Muah said:


> Stop we all know jiriya was the strongest sannin. I think tobi was pverall more powerful but hes more or less equal to jiriya.


I agree that Jiraya is the Strongest among the Sannin but still he is weaker than Tobirama.

Jiraya biggest chance of a win is SM and against someone like Tobirama he won't get the time to get into SM he will ne defeated much before he get the chance.


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## Android (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> congratulations on making yourself look like a fucking retard


Exactly what i thought 
I would rep+ you again Itachi

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## Muah (Jul 2, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> I agree that Jiraya is the Strongest among the Sannin but still he is weaker than Tobirama.
> 
> Jiraya biggest chance of a win is SM and against someone like Tobirama he won't get the time to get into SM he will ne defeated much before he get the chance.


He went into sm mode against pein.


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 2, 2016)

Muah said:


> He went into sm mode against pein.


Someone who doesn't rely on Speed and didn't start at Max Power or in other words with all 6 Pains or the Strongest of them,but with mainly Summoning. What if Yahiko was there and used Bansho Tenin from the start or Shinra Tensei!?

While Tobirama will attack in CQC Mark him and then there won't be hide and seek game like with Pain till he gets into SM.


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## kageturk (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> congratulations on making yourself look like a fucking retard



Says the tensai who never had one good post in 3 years. Don't make me call Grimmjow to disintegrate you kid. 



Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> While Tobirama will attack in CQC Mark him and then there won't be hide and seek game like with Pain till he gets into SM.



This is the part the juvies can't comprehend. All they want is to venerate their own personal avatars, but you need to get used to this bro. This was much worse when the Pein retards were around. They've just evolved to other characters these days.

Take any opinion by an author who registered after 2010 with a grain of salt. Logical discourse like your own is rare these days amongst the newcomers. They probably started with Shippuden and the inherent power-inflation is carved onto their grey matter. Persevere Hokage Sama!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Itachі (Jul 2, 2016)

kageturk said:


> Says the tensai who never had one good post in 3 years. Don't make me call Grimmjow to disintegrate you kid.



I've only seen like 4 of your posts and 3 have been shit.

Reactions: Like 2


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## kageturk (Jul 2, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I've only seen like 4 of your posts and 3 have been shit.



Don't rush it, give yourself 8 years as you catch up in common sense and lose the groupies.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Someone who doesn't rely on Speed and didn't start at Max Power or in other words with all 6 Pains or the Strongest of them,but with mainly Summoning. What if Yahiko was there and used Bansho Tenin from the start or Shinra Tensei!?
> 
> While Tobirama will attack in CQC Mark him and then there won't be hide and seek game like with Pain till he gets into SM.


Almost never does anyone start a fight at Max Power, so when people bring that up for Pain as this major point it never makes any sense to me.

Pain doesn't rely on speed, but spamming boss summons of all different varieties is a much stronger opening hand than most characters dish out. For example someone like Deidara starts a match w/ C1. Sasori w/ Hiroku. Etc... Jiraiya being able to handle that opening move while still reaching SM, speaks volumes towards his ability to achieve SM against most shinobi in the verse. We don't know how strong of an opening hand Tobirama uses, but chances are slim it's better than Pain's. 

Granted not everything is A > B > C, type mismatch matters, and you can argue Tobirama's speedy style is a bat match up for Jiraiya's SM, but even if Tobirama's opening hand is to use Hiraishin [which nothing confirms it is], he doesn't have pre-marked weapons accessible like Minato does, so he has to manually place markings on his weapons one at a time, which takes time and will slow him down. Jiraiya also has knowledge of Hiraishin, so he will be on guard for markings getting close to him and proactively seek to prevent that from happening; such as using a KB or summoning Bunta to deflect any thrown weapons away from him w/ Elemental Jutsu while he falls back for SM. Than there are also other factors to consider like distance, location, and circumstances; it's a very rare occurrence that two opposing shinobi just bump into each other at short distance on a clear battlefield w/o any kind of prior warning, in most cases one or both of the parties will be made aware of the other's presence well before then and have time to prepare themselves. If Jiraiya is able to start preparations at Long or on a more obstacle driven battlefield, Tobirama's speed is hardly an issue at all.

My point being that while I consider Tobirama slightly better than Jiraiya overall, I think the argument that Jiriaya isn't likely to reach SM is usually BS considering Kishimoto allowed him to reach it against Pain, who is not only stronger than most of the fighters people say Jiraiya will have a tough time reaching it against, but much more versatile and equipped to engage someone w/ a stronger opening hand under all different types of circumstances and terrains.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2016)

Turrin said:
			
		

> My point being that while I consider Tobirama slightly better than Jiraiya overall, I think the argument that Jiriaya isn't likely to reach SM is usually BS considering Kishimoto allowed him to reach it against Pain, who is not only stronger than most of the fighters people say Jiraiya will have a tough time reaching it against, but much more versatile and equipped to engage someone w/ a stronger opening hand under all different types of circumstances and terrains.


I think most of what you said in the post is true , but Jiraya only managed to enter SM because he as fighting Chikushodo alone who is two/three tiers below all the Pains at once .


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I think most of what you said in the post is true , but Jiraya only managed to enter SM because he as fighting Chikushodo alone who is two/three tiers below all the Pains at once .


Pretty much what I meant!


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> I think most of what you said in the post is true , but Jiraya only managed to enter SM because he as fighting Chikushodo alone who is two/three tiers below all the Pains at once .


Than you missed the point of what I said.

Yes Pain started that match not using his full power, I.E. only using Animal Realm, but how is that different from any other match? Itachi starts matches w/ Basic Taijutsu, Basic Katons, or Basic Genjutsu, which is far from his full power (Stage 4 Susano'o), Kakashi starts matches w/ basic Elemental Jutsu, Taijutsu, etc... which is far from his full power (Kamui), Deidara starts matches with C1, which is far from his full power (C3, C4, CO), Sasori starts matches with Hiroku which is far from his full power (100 Puppets, Saitetsu, etc...). Kakuzu starts matches with Basic application of tentacles or Domu, which is far from his full power (Utilizing All Masked Beasts at Once). And so on.

Pain's opening hand of mass summoning various boss summons is harder to defend against than all of the characters I just mentioned opening moves, yet Jiraiya still reached SM against him. Sure if Pain used his full power maybe Jiraiya wouldn't reach SM, but since like no one hardly ever does that it's irrelevant, and it still counts as the author allowing him to reach SM against Pain. So to penalize him for Pain not using his full power, when like no one ever does, is just dumb


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Than you missed the point of what I said.
> 
> Yes Pain started that match not using his full power, I.E. only using Animal Realm, but how is that different from any other match? Itachi starts matches w/ Basic Taijutsu, Basic Katons, or Basic Genjutsu, which is far from his full power (Stage 4 Susano'o), Kakashi starts matches w/ basic Elemental Jutsu, Taijutsu, etc... which is far from his full power (Kamui), Deidara starts matches with C1, which is far from his full power (C3, C4, CO), Sasori starts matches with Hiroku which is far from his full power (100 Puppets, Saitetsu, etc...). Kakuzu starts matches with Basic application of tentacles or Domu, which is far from his full power (Utilizing All Masked Beasts at Once). And so on.
> 
> Pain's opening hand of mass summoning various boss summons is harder to defend against than all of the characters I just mentioned opening moves, yet Jiraiya still reached SM against him. Sure if Pain used his full power maybe Jiraiya wouldn't reach SM, but since like no one hardly ever does that it's irrelevant, and it still counts as the author allowing him to reach SM against Pain. So to penalize him for Pain not using his full power, when like no one ever does, is just dumb



I think it depends on the mindset of the opponent in all honesty. For example, if Pain knew that Naruto would be very difficult to put down he'd probably just bring out the big guns. Like when Kakashi was prepared to use Kamui against Obito (who he thought to be Madara) because he wanted to end it quickly against a very powerful opponent. Same way that Itachi would try and use MS techniques against Tsunade (with knowledge) because Elemental Ninjutsu is only useful for distractions against her.


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## hbcaptain (Jul 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> Than you missed the point of what I said.
> 
> Yes Pain started that match not using his full power, I.E. only using Animal Realm, but how is that different from any other match? Itachi starts matches w/ Basic Taijutsu, Basic Katons, or Basic Genjutsu, which is far from his full power (Stage 4 Susano'o), Kakashi starts matches w/ basic Elemental Jutsu, Taijutsu, etc... which is far from his full power (Kamui), Deidara starts matches with C1, which is far from his full power (C3, C4, CO), Sasori starts matches with Hiroku which is far from his full power (100 Puppets, Saitetsu, etc...). Kakuzu starts matches with Basic application of tentacles or Domu, which is far from his full power (Utilizing All Masked Beasts at Once). And so on.
> 
> Pain's opening hand of mass summoning various boss summons is harder to defend against than all of the characters I just mentioned opening moves, yet Jiraiya still reached SM against him. Sure if Pain used his full power maybe Jiraiya wouldn't reach SM, but since like no one hardly ever does that it's irrelevant, and it still counts as the author allowing him to reach SM against Pain. So to penalize him for Pain not using his full power, when like no one ever does, is just dumb


What you said is partially true , but it depends on the oppenent , Mifune for example always start the battle with his fastest Iai , Minato starts directly using FTG , Raikage starts using V1 cloak . And I believe , Tobirama also starts using FTG or at least his super Shunshin no Jutsu (at least Mifune's level) . And I don't think Jiraya can survive against such a monstruous oppenent just relying on Boss summons while his hands are both joined and useless in battle trying to summon Fukasaku and Shima .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I think it depends on the mindset of the opponent in all honesty. For example, if Pain knew that Naruto would be very difficult to put down he'd probably just bring out the big guns. Like when Kakashi was prepared to use Kamui against Obito (who he thought to be Madara) because he wanted to end it quickly against a very powerful opponent. Same way that Itachi would try and use MS techniques against Tsunade (with knowledge) because Elemental Ninjutsu is only useful for distractions against her.


I'm simply not buying that. Itachi was under the spell of Edo-Tensei and forced to be completely serious against his enemies, and he knew he was going up against 2 powerful Jinchuuriki yet he still started off w/ Basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and at best 3T Genjutsu. Like wise Nagato when going up against his former master someone he clearly deeply respected the strength off given his statement at the end of their match, he still opted to start with 1 Realm. Same thing w/ Deidara who started w/ C1 against a Hebi-Sasuke he thought was stronger than Orochimaru. Same thing with B when he went up against Kisame, despite the fact that he admitted the last Akatsuki member he fought (Sasuke) was one of the strongest guys he'd ever faced in his life he still opted to start in Base w/ Kenjutsu. Same thing w/ Ei, despite believing Sasuke beat B, he opted to start w/ R1 and didn't move up to max speed until much later in the match. Same thing with Gengetsu, despite being faced w/ 2 Kages he still opted to not use Joki Boi and fuck around w/ Clam Genjutsu and Water Pistol. And so on.

The only examples I can think off where a character opts to use their strongest move from the jump is when there are story reasons in play, such as extreme anger, like Sasuke rage hulking out on Danzo due to vegence high and jumping to Susano'o right off the bat or Onoki raging out at Deidara and jumping to Jinton right off the bat. And usually in those instances these attempts are shown to be misguided and short sighted. Sasuke's abuse of MS was indicated to be poor strategy by Obito and it ultimately caused his eyesight to go bad incredibly quickly in comparison to Itachi or Kakashi; like wise Akatsuchi stopped Onoki from using Jinton because it would have blown up turtle island. And so on.

The only other time I can think off is when the gap between characters is simply massive. Like Kakashi believing Obito was Madara and going straight for Kamui basically as a desperation ploy. Not only do these ploys always fail, but they ether accomplish nothing or leave the character trying to do so worse off.

Basically in both instance the manga punishes character for fighting that way, and heavily implies it's not a good move to make to unleash ones full power right from the jump, and ultimately most character will not do so.


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

hbcaptain said:


> What you said is partially true , but it depends on the oppenent , Mifune for example always start the battle with his fastest Iai ,


No Mifune doesn't. Clearly the IAI technique he used on Hanzo at the start of there match was slower than the one he used at the end of their match, because the later was so fast that the momentum allowed his slash to cut through Hanzo's scythe while the former did not; and we don't even know if that was Mifune's fastest slash; though we do know for certain it wasn't Mifune's strongest slash because we know the Samurai can clad their blades in a massive amount of chakra and Mifune didn't even go so far as to do that in his final slash against Hanzo. So Mifune at that point still wasn't going all out. Thus the Mifune example runs contrary to your point and supports my own.



> Minato starts directly using FTG , Raikage starts using V1 cloak . .


Minato throwing a FTG Kunai and porting to it is not his best shit
Like wise Ei using R1 isn't his best shit ether

Far from it in both cases.



> And I believe , Tobirama also starts using FTG or at least his super Shunshin no Jutsu (at least Mifune's level) .


Absolutely baseless conjecture, as we've never seen the start of a 1v1 fight w/ Tobirama 1 on 1; and what is Mifune's level lol, we have no way to measure that.



> And I don't think Jiraya can survive against such a monstruous oppenent just relying on Boss summons while his hands are both joined and useless in battle trying to summon Fukasaku and Shima


He wouldn't just rely on boss summons, he would augment his strategy to reach SM depending on the enemy


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I'm simply not buying that. Itachi was under the spell of Edo-Tensei and forced to be completely serious against his enemies, and he knew he was going up against 2 powerful Jinchuuriki yet he still started off w/ Basic Ninjutsu, Taijutsu, and at best 3T Genjutsu. Like wise Nagato when going up against his former master someone he clearly deeply respected the strength off given his statement at the end of their match, he still opted to start with 1 Realm. Same thing w/ Deidara who started w/ C1 against a Hebi-Sasuke he thought was stronger than Orochimaru. Same thing with B when he went up against Kisame, despite the fact that he admitted the last Akatsuki member he fought (Sasuke) was one of the strongest guys he'd ever faced in his life he still opted to start in Base w/ Kenjutsu. Same thing w/ Ei, despite believing Sasuke beat B, he opted to start w/ R1 and didn't move up to max speed until much later in the match. Same thing with Gengetsu, despite being faced w/ 2 Kages he still opted to not use Joki Boi and fuck around w/ Clam Genjutsu and Water Pistol. And so on.
> 
> The only examples I can think off where a character opts to use their strongest move from the jump is when there are story reasons in play, such as extreme anger, like Sasuke rage hulking out on Danzo due to vegence high and jumping to Susano'o right off the bat or Onoki raging out at Deidara and jumping to Jinton right off the bat. And usually in those instances these attempts are shown to be misguided and short sighted. Sasuke's abuse of MS was indicated to be poor strategy by Obito and it ultimately caused his eyesight to go bad incredibly quickly in comparison to Itachi or Kakashi; like wise Akatsuchi stopped Onoki from using Jinton because it would have blown up turtle island. And so on.
> 
> ...



I understand your points, but I mean in match-ups where the characters would actually heavily fear losing and have knowledge on their opponent's abilities. Like Gai would probably use 7th Gate on Tsunade because his base attacks are useless, Kakashi would try and setup Kamui as early as possible in combination with Bunshin feints against Minato and Minato would try and seal Orochimaru as quickly as possible before he brings out Edo Tensei. In conventional battles I agree with you, for example Itachi vs Jiraiya wouldn't start with Itachi using MS or Jiraiya immediately going into SM but they would build up and aim to go for those techniques.


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2016)

While characters don't tend to go all out off the bat there tends to be reasons why they do not
Long set up or draw backs to going all out

Hirashin has no such disadvantage so there is little reason to think Tobirama whose hype is for being the fastest of his era doesn't always start fights with hirashin
In fact pretty sure he always does

Same way Obito will always start off using Kamui in battle

I think it's a rather fine twist when one tries to assume Tobirama won't start off with Hirashin

Which won't be Tobirama going all out btw

Considering ET using GFk would be a lot more dangerous

Pain started with 1 path as strategically speaking that's more dangerous than all 6 at once considering Jiriaya would have figured out the real nagato wasn't there a lot quicker 

Having Jiriaya fight 1, then face and defeat 3 only to face all 6 is a lot worse than all 6 at once 

The result would be the same but mind set speaking it's more exhausting for jiraiya to have gone through what he did 

Itachi won't start with Ms because of blindness and chakra output required 

A doesn't go V2 unless needed considering he stands there and amps to bijuu levels 

Hirashin movement for Hirashin users is a default setting that isn't going all out 

Far from it


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## Icegaze (Jul 3, 2016)

Second Hokage Tobirama said:


> Absolutely agree with that mate.
> 
> I will only add that there are 3 not 2 crucial Jutsu which had such a Key role and that is FTG,without it the Alliance would have been destroyed few times and even Konoha when Obito Attacked!



Actually Tobirama created the 3 most vital jutsu used in the war 
Kage bunshin by Naruto who helped share his chakra to everyone 
And also go around the battlefields getting rid of zetsu 

Hirashin which saved the alliance twice 

Edo tensei which helped Kabuto side greatly even the odds they were at 

So basically as far as impact to the ninja world Tobirama is clearly up there 

As far as difficulty and effectiveness of jutsu 

I guess we can attempt stacking it up 

Edo tensei +Hirashin+ GFK+suiton jutsu +KB

Would you consider that greater than

SM+Boss summons +katon+doton

Or Yamata +ET+ boss summons 

Or byakuyo +okasho+ boss summon + her nerve jutsu 

I would say I can make an argument for how they are all in the same league jutsu wise


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I understand your points, but I mean in match-ups where the characters would actually heavily fear losing and have knowledge on their opponent's abilities. Like Gai would probably use 7th Gate on Tsunade because his base attacks are useless, Kakashi would try and setup Kamui as early as possible in combination with Bunshin feints against Minato and Minato would try and seal Orochimaru as quickly as possible before he brings out Edo Tensei. In conventional battles I agree with you, for example Itachi vs Jiraiya wouldn't start with Itachi using MS or Jiraiya immediately going into SM but they would build up and aim to go for those techniques.


I don't buy this ether. Let's use the Gai example for instance, it's not like every time Gai throws a punch or a kick he believes he's going to one-shot the enemy with that attack; instead it's more like he's trying to wear the enemy down and get a more accurate feel for the enemy's capabilities. So I do not think Gai knowing that his enemy is capable of high-speed regeneration is going to suddenly opt him to use 7th-Gate, instead he's going to still likely try to wear the enemy down w/ basic punches and kicks, until he ether decides that he'll wear out before the enemy or the enemy starts pressuring him enough offensively that he's in danger. Like for instance Madara didn't opt for a stronger offensive technique against Tsunade's Byakugo, he just choose to keep stabbing her w/ Susano'o Swords to wear her down, because he believed she'd falter before he did and she wasn't posing a big enough threat to him offensively for him to up his game. Gai will play it the same way at first.

So unless were saying Gai not only knows about Tsunade's high speed regen, but her exact limits stamina wise, and that he has no chance of wearing her down w/ any of his his less skills, I don't see him opting for 7th-Gate right away. And even then he probably won't opt for 7th-Gate, because for example Sasuke knew that Lee's speed wasn't enough against Gaara's ultimate defense, but he didn't opt for Chidori out the gate he still attacked him w/ Lee's speed first, so chances are Gai will still attack w/ his regular speed first before 7th-Gate even when he has that intel. And the example I cited is like one of the very few instances where a character literally had that level of detailed knowledge, and still we see the character not starting out w/ their best shit.


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## Itachі (Jul 3, 2016)

Turrin said:


> I don't buy this ether. Let's use the Gai example for instance, it's not like every time Gai throws a punch or a kick he believes he's going to one-shot the enemy with that attack; instead it's more like he's trying to wear the enemy down and get a more accurate feel for the enemy's capabilities. So I do not think Gai knowing that his enemy is capable of high-speed regeneration is going to suddenly opt him to use 7th-Gate, instead he's going to still likely try to wear the enemy down w/ basic punches and kicks, until he ether decides that he'll wear out before the enemy or the enemy starts pressuring him enough offensively that he's in danger. Like for instance Madara didn't opt for a stronger offensive technique against Tsunade's Byakugo, he just choose to keep stabbing her w/ Susano'o Swords to wear her down, because he believed she'd falter before he did and she wasn't posing a big enough threat to him offensively for him to up his game. Gai will play it the same way at first.
> 
> So unless were saying Gai not only knows about Tsunade's high speed regen, but her exact limits stamina wise, and that he has no chance of wearing her down w/ any of his his less skills, I don't see him opting for 7th-Gate right away. And even then he probably won't opt for 7th-Gate, because for example Sasuke knew that Lee's speed wasn't enough against Gaara's ultimate defense, but he didn't opt for Chidori out the gate he still attacked him w/ Lee's speed first, so chances are Gai will still attack w/ his regular speed first before 7th-Gate even when he has that intel. And the example I cited is like one of the very few instances where a character literally had that level of detailed knowledge, and still we see the character not starting out w/ their best shit.



Your second paragraph is more of what I'm thinking of, if Gai had knowledge of Tsunade's absolutely monstrous strength, her CQC prowess, her durability and Byakugo he'd have no reason to engage with her in base since a single mis-step would leave him dead.


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## Turrin (Jul 3, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Your second paragraph is more of what I'm thinking of, if Gai had knowledge of Tsunade's absolutely monstrous strength, her CQC prowess, her durability and Byakugo he'd have no reason to engage with her in base since a single mis-step would leave him dead.


Only if Gai thought he'd be at serious risk if he were to engage her in CQC, if he instead believes he could evade her hits for awhile, he'd probably still engage her in Base for awhile, the same way Sasuke engaged Gaara w/ Lee's Taijutsu despite knowing that he couldn't win using that alone. Otherwise in the worst case scenario he'd open a few Gates to ensure he could evade Tsunade's hits for awhile, but that still doesn't get us to him starting out w/ 7th-Gate, probably not even 6th-Gate. I also have to once again stress that this level of detailed knowledge on an enemy is pretty unlikely to ever be the case.


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## Icegaze (Jul 4, 2016)

@Itachi. 
Turrin is using a convenient example where by the chakra jutsu is double edge hence why they don't resort to it quickly or start with it 

Tsunade used byakuyo off the bat once she joined the fight 

It really all depends on ease of use 

So yes gai won't resort to 7th gate quickly because of damage to his body 

However there is zero reason for Tobirama not to use ET which has no effect on his chakra levels and once prepped can always be used 
Or Hirashn


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## Second Hokage Tobirama (Jul 4, 2016)

From what we have seen FTG,KB, and GKF are Tobirama specialties,he mastered all Elements including Yin and Yang,but with the lack of Info we have on him and his Battle Prowess we can at least conclude that he Heavily Relied on his Incredible Speed,Shunsin and FTG with devastating ET and Mawashi combined with FTG and Surprise and with his quite above Average Sensing Skills plus his FTG and Shunshin Speed he is hard to hit but cat mark most opponents quite quickly,and when you add Surprise Marked Kunais it becomes harder to counter him,cuz unlike with Minato you can't be sure or know which Kunai or weapon he could have marked.

I think Tobirama has better Mastery over Ninjutsu plus some decent Level Genjutsu(Having Yin And Yang and etc.) with quite good CQC/ Taijutsu and Kenjutsu battling Uchihas and all ,so he can outperform Jiraya much before Jiraya gets the chance to go in SM!


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