# SM Jiraiya vs. Minato



## Coppur (Oct 10, 2013)

Who takes it?

Knowledge: Manga

Mindset: IC but intent to kill

Distance: 30m

Restrictions: Any form of KCM.

Conditions: Jiraiya starts in SM, Each have their own pair of toads (One Gamabunta for J-man, One Gamabunta for Mr. Colgate)

In my opinion Minato takes this Mid-High difficulty at best, but I have seen others that think otherwise.

Scenario 2: If this is too much of a stomp, add 70m and strip Minato of his summons.


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## Bonly (Oct 10, 2013)

I'd say Minato wins this more times then not as well. Minato can get rid of most(if not all) of Jiraiya's attacks with his S/T Barrier and Minato has the reflexes to land a touch on Jiraiya which means Jiraiya would be marked upon which Minato can finish Jiraiya off whenever he wants. Jiraiya's only shot at winning is by having Ma+Pa successfully use Magen: Gama Rinshō and successfully catch Minato inside but I don't see that happening more times then not. Adding in Minato's portrayal makes it puts the nails in the coffin.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2013)

30 meters is too short against Minato. He gloriously closes that in one flicker (Minato's Shunshin is a quicker technique than anything in Jiraiya's move-set) and now it's Hiraishin Minato (who's scarier than Obito & v2 Ei up close) vs. J-man in cqc. Things get ugly.

I don't see what Jiraiya can even do. Running away and attempting Gama Rinsho would entail out-speeding Minato, which is lol. Running in and attempting to overpower with his Sage body and Rasengan just earn him the Raikage treatment, and no, J-man's hair defense isn't quick enough to guard against speed that circumvented Obito's Kamui.


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## Coppur (Oct 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> 30 meters is too short against Minato. He gloriously closes that in one flicker (Minato's Shunshin is a quicker technique than anything in Jiraiya's move-set) and now it's Hiraishin Minato (who's scarier than Obito & v2 Ei up close) vs. J-man in cqc. Things get ugly.
> 
> I don't see what Jiraiya can even do. Running away and attempting Gama Rinsho would entail out-speeding Minato, which is lol. Running in and attempting to overpower with his Sage body and Rasengan just earn him the Raikage treatment, and no, J-man's hair defense isn't quick enough to guard against speed that circumvented Obito's Kamui.



Agreed, though I have seen quite a few people say that Sage Sensing edges out Minato, which I find to be extremely incorrect. In addition I'm going to add a different scenario at a different distance.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2013)

Coppur said:


> Agreed, though I have seen quite a few people say that Sage Sensing edges out Minato.




Raiton no Yori lightning reflex booster >>>> Imperfect Sage Mode. Ei could dodge Amaterasu, yet faltered against Minato. Jiraiya dies horrifically if the two fight hand to hand. Obito couldn't Kamui against Minato's assaults after he figured out the Jutsu.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Though what is in Minato's arsenal to even hurt SM Jiraiya? We're talking about a guy in base who could tank a 100 meter tall ram smashing into him through steel piping and through a skyscraper and one-shotted it after. And there's not just one sensor, there are _three_ while Jiraiya is in Sage Mode since he has Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders to keep him in Sage Mode indefinitely, and they are ALSO in Sage Mode which means Minato doesn't have the jutsu to injure them either.

Note: Minato is stronger than SM Jiraiya, but from the jutsu he's revealed he doesn't have ANYTHING in base to put SM Jiraiya down. Jiraiya can tank all of his Rasengans, his Tri-Kunai will snap and shatter on SM Jiraiya's skin, and with three sensors there's a probability that Jiraiya can predict where he'll appear.


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## Rocky (Oct 10, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Though what is in Minato's arsenal to even hurt SM Jiraiya? We're talking about a guy in base who could tank a 100 meter tall ram smashing into him through steel piping and through a skyscraper and one-shotted it after. And there's not just one sensor, there are _three_ while Jiraiya is in Sage Mode since he has Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders to keep him in Sage Mode indefinitely, and they are ALSO in Sage Mode which means Minato doesn't have the jutsu to injure them either.






Bee disagrees; he certainly thought his brother needed saving.

Other than that, a large Rasengan to the teeth works.


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## Havoc (Oct 10, 2013)

Minato goes into SM and steals J-Man's chakra.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 10, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Bee disagrees; he certainly thought his brother needed saving.
> 
> Other than that, a large Rasengan to the teeth works.


Is A anywhere as durable as the feat I displayed of base Jiraiya, Rocky? Has he ever tanked a boss summon ramming him through massive steel pipes and into a skyscraper? Jiraiya's already high durability increases to major levels in Sage Mode due to all the buffs the form gives.

And...Minato can only do the base, normal Rasengan. He can't do Odama Rasengan, nor can he do Cho Odama Rasengan.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

If you think SM J-Man is more durable than Ei then you aren't my friend anymore.


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## Havoc (Oct 11, 2013)

Jiraiya can be stabbed.

Minato can stab people.

Minato stabs Jiraiya to death.

Canon.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If you think SM J-Man is more durable than Ei then you aren't my friend anymore.


You do realize you're comparing a Chakra Disruption Blade, a manifestation of Madara's will to Sasuke's Chidori Gatana right? The Chakra Disruption Blades some of the sharpest objects in the manga, three steel scalpels are worn down just trying to get a shaving of the material off of them. 

And dude, Jiraiya, in BASE, tanked a boss summon ramming him through steel pipes and through a skyscraper. Sage Mode increases speed, strength, and durability.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

Are you insinuating that Jiraiya could just stand there an watch Sasuke's Chidori blade bounce off his skin. Or even (gulp) that J-man can tank Sasuke's Chidori?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Are you insinuating that Jiraiya could just stand there an watch Sasuke's Chidori blade bounce off his skin. Or even (gulp) that J-man can tank Sasuke's Chidori?


Depends: What is Sasuke's Chidori Gatana's best cutting feat and his Chidori's best piercing and destructive feat? Hell, from the panels you've shown A merely countered Sasuke's electric discharges with Chidori Gatana and Chidori through his Raiton no Yoroi. What happens when electricity meets electricity?

We are talking about a man who while in base can survive a Boss Summon plowing him through a skyscraper and take a kick to the face from Maito Gai with just a nosebleed to show from it. Sage Mode increases durability, speed, and strength Rocky.


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2013)

SM Jiraiya is more durable than base Ei. While I personally feel V2 is more durable, Jiraiya is still up there, being able to be stabbed, have his arm taken off, and then penetrated some more mulptiple times, and still being able to move.

Rocky your chidori is example is invalid IMO, as chidori was negated not because of durability(it straight up pierced his shroud and drew blood.) but because of lightning negating itself. By the time sasuke's chidori had pierced his shroud it wasn't powerful enough to pierce his big black pectorals as it normally would. 

Also Rocky mind showing me panel evidence as to how Minato is faster than SM users? Not interested in hype.

Edit: OMFG me and Supersaiyan and are actually slightly agreeing.... This shit is fucking crazy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Minato can be stronger than SM Jiraiya, but SM Jiraiya could be the worst opponent he can face due to SM Jiraiya's durability, sensing, and ninjutsu and taijutsu boost he gets. That's the point I'm getting at Rocky.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Jiraiya is still up there, being able to be stabbed, have his arm taken off, and then penetrated some more mulptiple times




You're trying to tell me how durable Jiraiya is by listing examples of how he is not very durable.



> Rocky your chidori is example is invalid IMO, as chidori was negated not because of durability(it straight up pierced his shroud and drew blood.) but because of lightning negating itself. By the time sasuke's chidori had pierced his shroud it wasn't powerful enough to pierce his big black pectorals as it normally would.




There's also swords bouncing off Ei, and Base Ei tanking a shredder transport technique that Tsunade needed life shortening medical Ninjutsu to survive. 



> Also Rocky mind showing me panel evidence as to how Minato is faster than SM users?



........:sanji


Dodging & Counter-Blitzing   Mangekyou Obito.

Blitzing Mangekyou Obito. Again.

Dodging and Counter-Blitzing v2 Ei.

Jiraiya's speed feats are?



> Not interested in hype.




I don't care what you're interested in. Manga canon blatantly points out that Minato is faster than the Raikage, whom Jiraiya doesn't even compare to.


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > You're trying to tell me how durable Jiraiya is by listing examples of how he is not very durable.
> 
> 
> No getting stabbed over 5 times, and getting your arm ripped off show greats feats of endurance, which is what I am arguing, my bad for saying durability. you got that point, bruh.
> ...


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

...Hiraishin is counted as Minato's speed, Dr. White. His Shunshin speed is fast enough to cross all of Konoha, summon Gamabunta, and use Toad Food Court Destroyer all before Kurama could complete a Bijudama.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

Minato has Flying Thunder God in the thread, so I don't see any purpose in excluding it.

If you're looking for Base/Shunshin feats, then Minato's showings are limited. Why use Shunshin when you have Hiraishin?

Nonetheless, he has some decent ones. Stealing Baby Naruto back from Obito before the latter could complete his point blank Kunai stab, which actually drew praise from Obito. Also, warping in, rescuing Kushina, and avoiding Kurama's point blank punch with his flicker (Kurama was noted to be very fast by Sage Naruto). 

This one tends to be unclear to some, but Minato crossed Konoha and summoned Bunta on the Kyuubi without the apparent use of Hiraishin, as no tags were in the nearby vicinity (they basically would've had to have been on Kurama).

As an Edo, he was able to spread 4 Kunai in corners around the Juubi, which is absolutely gargantuan, before any Kage could notice. Though it's unclear whether or not he did this in Base or KCM.


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## Dr. White (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> > Minato has Flying Thunder God in the thread, so I don't see any purpose in excluding it.
> 
> 
> Flying thunder god's effectiveness is diminished with knowledge/great spped and reactions.
> ...


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Flying thunder god's effectiveness is diminished with knowledge/great spped and reactions.




The surprise factor is gone when knowledge is gained, but I wouldn't say its effectiveness is diminished, at least not to any major extent.

I assume Ei pretty much was never able to beat it, thus his "can never be surpassed" statements. Also, Obito was Minato's student, yet he was trashed by FTG.

For a while, the main characters of the story were completely relying on it to hit Jubito. Hell, Sage Naruto blitzed Jubito with assistance from Hiraishin Tobirama.

So yeah, the current chapters all but solidify it. Hiraishin is deadly, regardless of knowledge/reactions. 



> Wasn't Tsunade able to cross Konoha in a comparable time? She is by no means a speedster. I'm not doubting Minato is fast as shit, its just I have seen post that claim base minato is >> &th gated Gai and what not. My questioning isn't really relevant to this match I just wanted to hear your opinion on the matter.




Minato crossed it before Kurama could finish charging a Bijuudama, while pulling off a summon at the same time. Does Tsunade have a feat like that? (I honestly don't know)

Minato in base isn't anywhere near Gai, Ei, or Naruto. FTG is primarily why Minato is regarded as the Yellow Flash.


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## Csdabest (Oct 11, 2013)

Minato gets obliterated. Its essentially 3 vs 1 w/o Boss summons. Jiraiya uses the toads to do either version of  Frog Song and Minato is fucked. Minato loses because he has zero genjutsu feats.


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## Coppur (Oct 11, 2013)

Csdabest said:


> Minato gets obliterated. Its essentially 3 vs 1 w/o Boss summons. Jiraiya uses the toads to do either version of  Frog Song and Minato is fucked. Minato loses because he has zero genjutsu feats.



He might not have any direct genjutsu feats, however, one thing to note (at least in scenario 1) is the fact that Minato can get his summons out, he can effectively nullify any sort of genjutsu, remember frog song isn't tsukuyomi, it can be broken with the user's chakra or an intervening force, that force being Minato's toads. And why would it be 3 v. 1 when Minato has his toads, can teleport any sort of summon Jiraiya has, bar Fugusaku and Shima, and can disrupt summoning contracts with a contract seal.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 11, 2013)

What is the location?

Jiraiya won't be wanting to try for close-range and Minato's isn't _Shunshin_ blitzing across 30 meters faster than any of Jiraiya's Jutsus are executed. His concept of speed _isn't_ traditional, and is reliant upon the positioning of the seals; he has to get a seal over there first before he can teleport and as long as Jiraiya, Fukusaku, and Shima are looking out for those marks Minato isn't getting near them without the Sage trio noticing.

The Fourth has no answer to a Senjutsu-empowered _Yomi Numa_; it'd suck all of his tags in, and seeing as he doesn't possess remarkable physical strength it'd prevent him from making the handseals needed to boss summon his way out if he himself is caught (and I wouldn't buy Minato being able to warp away a mud swamp either, because warping the ground itself off of the field just follows naturally and that'd be stupid beyond belief). If this happens to be an enclosed field, something like _Goemon_ could screw up Minato's tag placement, too.

The Toad Sage has displayed aptitude in _Kage Bunshin_ usage and feints, and if Minato does start to close in uncomfortably _Hari Jizō_ can be used as a deterrent to Taijutsu since he wouldn't want to stab his arm trying to attack Jiraiya, who could have Ma/Pa synching _Magen: Gamarinshō_ within the confines of the needles (and they shouldn't take as long to do that this time since it hasn't been forever and a half since their last performance).

So I'd give the edge to Jiraiya, just slightly; I don't think Minato's general superiority to the Sannin is great enough to comfortably overcome the advantageous stipulation of starting Jiraiya in his heightened form from a distance that Narutoverse considers long-range when manga knowledge is virtually full at least for Jiraiya.






Rocky said:


> Bee disagrees; he certainly thought his brother needed saving.



So I guess it was also implied that Ay needed saving from Sasuke's Chidori flowed katana, right? The one he effortlessly tanked?

And haven't you argued _RnY_ Ay could take shots that crack open _Susano'o_? Kunai _break_ on a weaker _Susano'o_, y'know.

The kunai couldn't logically do anything, and really there weren't any implications that it could.

For all Bee knew there was some weird durability ignoring Jutsu on that Kunai or something and he wanted to play it safe than be sorry.



Rocky said:


> Minato crossed it before Kurama could finish charging a Bijuudama, while pulling off a summon at the same time. Does Tsunade have a feat like that? (I honestly don't know)



I didn't think _Bijūdama_ charged especially quickly (not slowly either, but still).

Tsunade crossed like half of it without Naruto or the Gama armada noticing until she had already reached her destination despite her being on the verge of going into a chakra depletion coma (in such a state that she barely raised her fist when Asura dashed at her). So. . .I don't think crossing the village suggests his base _Shunshin_ is going to be troublesome for a Sage that was able to drop his sandals, crouch as his hands and feet transformed, talk for a bit, and then dart across the room to Preta before his shoe touched the ground and all that jazz.

Without _Hiraishin_, I'd place Sage Jiraiya and Minato at roughly comparable speeds.


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 11, 2013)

SS12Man is correct, Minato off course is the stronger combatant but he would need Death Reaper Seal to defeat Minato due to being a bad match up, and like I say knowledge is very critical in most matches and Jiriyia knows all of his jutsu


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Oct 11, 2013)

This thread is silly. Jiraiya can't hit Minato. At all. Yomi Numa won't work if Minato uses his own summons to get out. And from there, he pretty much buttrapes Jiraiya. 

Some of you are overrating Jiraiya way too much. Minato is at least a tier above him in overall strength.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> His concept of speed _isn't_ traditional, and is reliant upon the positioning of the seals; he has to get a seal over there first before he can teleport and as long as Jiraiya, Fukusaku, and Shima are looking out for those marks Minato isn't getting near them without the Sage trio noticing.




That's your interpretation of Minato. Kishomoto's interpretation is that Minato has no trouble getting a seal where he needs one. Whether or not it's a small distance such as above the Raikage's shoulder, or a large one like spreading Kunai around the Juubi, Minato has had no issues.

If you're set on this argument, bring fourth some Manga examples of _anyone_ efficiently defending against Hiraishin. There's a reason the Raikage directly credits Minato as having _greater speed_ than him, rather then saying Minato was just some guy that could teleport. Ei makes no note of Hiraishin being less effective/traditional than Shunshin. Therefore, I'm highly skeptical in granting anyone who would struggle with the Raikage's speed a free pass on Minato's.



> The Fourth has no answer to a Senjutsu-empowered _Yomi Numa_; it'd suck all of his tags in, and seeing as he doesn't possess remarkable physical strength it'd prevent him from making the handseals needed to boss summon his way out if he himself is caught (and I wouldn't buy Minato being able to warp away a mud swamp either, because warping the ground itself off of the field just follows naturally and that'd be stupid beyond belief). If this happens to be an enclosed field, something like _Goemon_ could screw up Minato's tag placement, too.




He would warp to a tag placed on a nearby tree, or any sort of elevated ground. Or of course, throw a Kunai into the air and warp himself out of it. The swamp forms at the feet; the hands are free for a time being.



> if Minato does start to close in uncomfortably _Hari Jizō_ can be used as a deterrent to Taijutsu since he wouldn't want to stab his arm trying to attack Jiraiya, who could have Ma/Pa synching _Magen: Gamarinshō_ within the confines of the needles (and they shouldn't take as long to do that this time since it hasn't been forever and a half since their last performance).




I don't know how Hari Jizo is supposed to defend against something that Kamui couldn't, but ok.

If you mean that Jiraiya turtles up in it, then Rasengan makes quick work of a now-blind, sitting duck Jiraiya.



> So I'd give the edge to Jiraiya, just slightly; I don't think Minato's general superiority to the Sannin is great enough to comfortably overcome the advantageous stipulation of starting Jiraiya in his heightened form from a distance that Narutoverse considers long-range when manga knowledge is virtually full at least for Jiraiya.




30 meters is not long range, and Jiraiya's knowledge is unknown. I'm aware Minato was Jiraiya's student, but Obito is Minato's and look how that worked out.


*Spoiler*: _Regarding Ei & Minato_ 






> So I guess it was also implied that Ay needed saving from Sasuke's Chidori flowed katana, right? The one he effortlessly tanked?




No, because nobody had to save Ei from Sasuke. 



> And haven't you argued _RnY_ Ay could take shots that crack open _Susano'o_? Kunai _break_ on a weaker _Susano'o_, y'know.




Yes. What does that have to do with Minato.



> The kunai couldn't logically do anything, and really there weren't any implications that it could.




There were plenty of implications that it could. 

First off, Bee wouldn't have smacked his brother in the back with the limb of a Bijuu, which opened _himself _up to a counterstrike from Minato, if Ei could tank it. Nobody on that battlefield was acting like that wouldn't have done anything. Even upon seeing what Minato's attack did, no one wondered why Bee did what he did. If the Kunai would've bounced off Ei, Bee wouldn't have been marked, and Ei could've counterattacked a surprised Minato. 

Second, Minato's Kunai are not normal. They're heavier, and he probably enhances them in some way. Notice how Minato tears through a Bijuu limb and creates a small crater with one thrust.



> For all Bee knew there was some weird durability ignoring Jutsu on that Kunai or something and he wanted to play it safe than be sorry.




Yeah, Bee had no knowledge on Minato, and no reason to think that. "For all Bee knew", Minato could've had an ability to completely suppress Bijuu upon touch, and it would've been a _bad_ idea to attack with a Hachibi limb. 

It appeared as a normal Kunai, and Bee clearly though Ei was in trouble. _Kishi_ clearly though Ei was in trouble, and that was the battle he used to support the Raikage's "Minato can never be surpassed" comments. I highly doubt Kishimoto thinks Minato's attacks all bounce off Ei, or Sage Jiraiya by extension. 





> Without _Hiraishin_, I'd place Sage Jiraiya and Minato at roughly comparable speeds.




That's fine.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky said:


> That's your interpretation of Minato. Kishomoto's interpretation is that Minato has no trouble getting a seal where he needs one. Whether or not it's a small distance such as above the Raikage's shoulder, or a large one like spreading Kunai around the Juubi, Minato has had no issues.
> 
> If you're set on this argument, bring fourth some Manga examples of _anyone_ efficiently defending against Hiraishin. There's a reason the Raikage directly credits Minato as having _greater speed_ than him, rather then saying Minato was just some guy that could teleport. Ei makes no note of Hiraishin being less effective/traditional than Shunshin. Therefore, I'm highly skeptical in granting anyone who would struggle with the Raikage's speed a free pass on Minato's.



Don't be Gump. My interpretation that _Hiraishin no Jutsu_ is reliant upon the placement of seals isn't one that Kishimoto disagrees with, because if it was we wouldn't see Minato consistently popping up near seals. Traditional speed doesn't rely on seal placement, _Hiraishin_ does, therefore it is not traditional speed.

I don't care nor am I contesting whether or not Kishimoto classifies it as 'speed' period, because he's a scientific retard, and I don't need to bring forth anything more until you discredit something that I've said, which you aren't doing right now, because you don't ask someone to refute you in order to refute them.

Methodology matters whilst Jiraiya unlike Kurama knows of _Hiraishin_, and unlike Ay and Obito he doesn't need to get into melee range to accomplish anything. Not a single one of those entities are similar to Jiraiya.

Get your straw-man of my post out of here and back your crap up before you ask me to back up mine. Don't bring me this piss poor and hypocritical nonsense that "Kishi has him do this without trouble so yeah" because you couldn't be any better than Matto on the topic Tsunade's regeneration which you so venomously disagree with. If anything you would be worse.

Stay consistent with your application of logic, please.



> He would warp to a tag placed on a nearby tree, or any sort of elevated ground. Or of course, throw a Kunai into the air and warp himself out of it. The swamp forms at the feet; the hands are free for a time being.



But any nearby trees would be sucked into the swamp as well, along with any elevated ground. . .

Yeah, Minato's hands will be free for a split second before he goes under, but my _primary_ point about _Yomi Numa_ was that it would suck up placed tags.

Or wait a second. . .is that just 'your' interpretation of _Yomi Numa_ whilst 'Kishi's' interpretation is that Jiraiya has no trouble ensnaring and immobilizing whatever he aims for?



> I don't know how Hari Jizo is supposed to defend against something that Kamui couldn't, but ok.
> 
> If you mean that Jiraiya turtles up in it, then Rasengan makes quick work of a now-blind, sitting duck Jiraiya.



By Jiraiya using it _before_ he is at point-blank with Minato, unlike Obito's use of _Kamui_ to get into range to physically grab Minato. I said if Minato "starts to close in", not "after he's up close and personal".

If it isn't evidenced otherwise I always assume that defensive Jutsus are at least as if not more durable than their users, even if only slightly. Base Jiraiya tanked being slammed into a wall by a boss summon hard enough to carve out a tunnel, so that's my baseline for _Hari Jizō_, until it gets dramatically enhanced by Sage Mode alongside Jiraiya's physical stats. So I personally don't see _Rasengan_ making 'quick work' of anything.



> 30 meters is not long range, and Jiraiya's knowledge is unknown. I'm aware Minato was Jiraiya's student, but Obito is Minato's and look how that worked out.



Yes 30 meters is long range, which is why Jutsus with such a reach are classified as _long range Jutsus_.

Obito _had to_ go Taijutsu with Minato. Jiraiya on the other hand is primarily a ranged fighter who wouldn't want to close in.

A>B>C doesn't work to discredit me when the opposing fighting styles in question are _non-comparable_.



> *Spoiler*: _Regarding Ei & Minato_
> 
> 
> 
> lalalalala




*Spoiler*: _Why you are wrong and Flamey is right once again_ 







> No, because nobody had to save Ei from Sasuke.



Darui intercepted Sasuke's initial slash attempt.



> Yes. What does that have to do with Minato.



Try everything?

You implied Minato's kunai was a threat to Ay when Kunai break on something weaker than the thing broken by the attacks you feel Ay would take better.

And that's why double standards fail hard, because Minato isn't going to hurt Ay with something that breaks upon clashing with his cloak, though.



> There were plenty of implications that it could.



If by 'plenty' you mean 'zero', then sure.



> First off, Bee wouldn't have smacked his brother in the back with the limb of a Bijuu, which opened _himself _up to a counterstrike from Minato, if Ei could tank it. Nobody on that battlefield was acting like that wouldn't have done anything. Even upon seeing what Minato's attack did, no one wondered why Bee did what he did. If the Kunai would've bounced off Ei, Bee wouldn't have been marked, and Ei could've counterattacked a surprised Minato.



Nobody was acting like it _would have_ done anything after they saw it either. Did you see any of the Kumo nin or Tsunade going "Oh so you could tank it after all" once Ay went through the _Tensō no Jutsu_ that neither Mabui nor Ay were confident he could survive? No you didn't, they just kept on.

There wouldn't have been a point in everybody bringing to attention that it was a false alarm. They were no more competent than Ay and Bee, and whatever they could have said would have already been known to the Kumo bros, so they kept their mouths shut. They were probably more pre-occupied with how everything just happened faster than they could believe.



> Second, Minato's Kunai are not normal. They're heavier, and he probably enhances them in some way. Notice how Minato tears through a Bijuu limb and creates a small crater with one thrust.



Minato's Kunai are heavier by virtue of having two additional spikes on their sides. Their increased weight doesn't lend credence to them being significantly superior in hardness, nor does it lead to an enhancement in cutting power.

Minato's slash tore into a gelatinous tentacle, I'm well aware of that and I'm not very impressed (said tentacle surviving the heated outburst force of an explosion does not mean that it isn't gelatinous, it is resistant to some forms of damage but its properties are still especially susceptible to cutting relative to other forms of damage).

Minato's Kunai is not what caused that crater, though. That crater isn't linear like what the thrust of a bladed weapon would produced. If it was the result of Minato's slash it would have looked much more like Tsunade's finger fissure. It was obviously the result of the heavy Hachibi tentacle falling to the ground. 



> Yeah, Bee had no knowledge on Minato, and no reason to think that. "For all Bee knew", Minato could've had an ability to completely suppress Bijuu upon touch, and it would've been a _bad_ idea to attack with a Hachibi limb.



Bee's reason was lack of knowledge. If I thought there was even a chance that something might injure my sister and I could throw a detachable, regrowing tentacle in the way, I would.

If the thought of a Bijū suppression method crossed his mind it should have also crossed his mind that such a method wouldn't have been in effect during a thrust intended for Ay who isn't a Bijū, especially without Minato even knowing that Bee was a Jinchūriki.



> It appeared as a normal Kunai, and Bee clearly though Ei was in trouble. _Kishi_ clearly though Ei was in trouble, and that was the battle he used to support the Raikage's "Minato can never be surpassed" comments. I highly doubt Kishimoto thinks Minato's attacks all bounce off Ei, or Sage Jiraiya by extension.



You maintaining that Bee saw it as a regular Kunai means that Bee sees regular Kunai stabs as being capable of injuring his brother. That would refute Ay taking a shot from something that broke a Susano'o more durable than the one that Kunai break on.

Your excuse that Minato probably 'enhances' his own Kunai flies right out the window with anything you're attempting to refute because Bee wouldn't know about that.

I remain unconvinced that Kishimoto thought Ay was in trouble anymore than he did when Darui defended Ay from Sasuke's slash. The only difference between those situations is your own wishful thinking.

You're trying to sell me that "Oh well Minato's stronger so his kunai can cut through RnY no problem cuz he's Minato". You may as well say Orochimaru can't tank a Katon from Itachi because the latter is superior.

Superiority does not guarantee victory; matchups matter and if one of your opponent's stronger points is advantageous against your weaker point then it remains advantageous against your weak point whether you're stronger in general or not. Neji admitted that Kidomaru was 'far' stronger than himself but who wound up killing who?

Minato's swiftness and superior maneuverability are what lead Ay to recognize who the superior combatant was, not his potential for destructive capacity, much in the same way Itachi's Kunai was not what made Orochimaru realize who was stronger. That is the entire why Naruto passed Ay's test by becoming the second person to _dodge_ Ay's fastest punch, not the second to kick Ay's Black ass up and down the street.






> That's fine.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Don't be Gump. My interpretation that _Hiraishin no Jutsu_ is reliant upon the placement of seals isn't one that Kishimoto disagrees with, because if it was we wouldn't see Minato consistently popping up near seals. Traditional speed doesn't rely on seal placement, _Hiraishin_ does, therefore it is not traditional speed. I don't care nor am I contesting whether or not Kishimoto classifies it as 'speed' period, because he's a scientific retard, and I don't need to bring forth anything more until you discredit something that I've said, which you aren't doing right now, because you don't ask someone to refute you in order to refute them.




I am not debating your interpretation on Hiraishin; I'm fully aware of its mechanics. I'm asking you to back your bold claim that Jiraiya will cope with Flying Thunder God simply because he is "looking out for" the markers. That is a lackluster defensive argument, as watching out for them does not entail that Jiraiya will stop every one that comes his way. Minato is regarded as a creative "once in a generation genius." There is a very slim chance that Jiraiya, Fukasaku, & Shima can consistently evade a Jutsu that is so versatile; the only prerequisite is placing a hunk a metal within a few feet of the target. If that happens, Jiraiya *cannot* mount a defense in time to Minato's strikes.

What will Jiraiya do should Minato grab a large quantity of Kunai and throws them in J-man's direction while flickering forward? Remember that the goal is not accuracy; Minato only needs one marker in Jiraiya's general vicinity to complete the set up for a Hiraishin flank. Jiraiya could possibly interrupt Minato's flicker, but then those Kunai are coming at him at the rate of Minato's Shunshin (they will decelerate rapidly, but they will start off at the speed of the vessel that launched them, which is Minato). That leaves him little time to do anything but barley dodge or block, which leaves him vulnerable to immediate follow up. 

I also think you underrate Minato's Shunshin no Jutsu which is indeed part of his moniker. Sure, Jiraiya may be capable of reacting to it, but it's a weapon nonetheless. A weapon that Minato can certainly use to set Jiraiya up for the more overwhelming Hiraishin.

Minato utilizes Hiraishin in a way that perfectly simulates 'traditional' speed, thus the Raikage claiming Minato to be the faster one. This is not a debatable matter; it is in the Manga. Minato is faster than the Raikage, and it is canon. That doesn't mean that Minato has a body flicker on the Raikage's level. However, it does indeed indicate that Minato's usage of FTG is so masterful, he overcomes the detriment that is Hiraishin's reliance on the jutsu-shiki. So, I ask you to support the notion that simply having knowledge and keeping watch is enough to completely negate Minato's legendary, world-renowned quickness. 

By the way, if Kishimoto states something, it becomes Manga canon and therefore true when regarding the Manga, no matter how accurate the statement is. If Kishimoto makes a statement claiming that Asuma is stronger than Tsunade, that match is no longer debatable. Asuma > Tsunade. This is the case _even if it's a scientific example_ that doesn't match out real world laws. If Kish explains in the Manga that water is made up of carbon dioxide and helium, that is now canon no matter how wrong it is. Scientific inaccuracies are present in nearly all examples of fiction. 




> Or wait a second. . .is that just 'your' interpretation of _Yomi Numa_ whilst 'Kishi's' interpretation is that Jiraiya has no trouble ensnaring and immobilizing whatever he aims for?




Yomi Numa is not going to completely sink Minato before he can flick up a Kunai if the Raikage's v2 flicker couldn't connect before Minato could flick up a Kunai. 

You didn't understand the "interpretation" argument I used. I was not trying to say that "Minato will blitz because he never has trouble blitzing". I agree, that's stupid. It was a counter-argument to you trying to tell me that Jiraiya will effectively defend against FTG based _solely_ on its need for tags. In Kishi's book, Hiraishin is considered "speed" just as much as Ei's Shunshin is. That doesn't mean we ignore the mechanics of FTG, but it does mean that Minato is skillful enough with the technique to still be considered "faster" than Ei. It doesn't have anything to do with the instantaneous teleportation. Genma & Raido can use Hiraishin as well, yet they aren't considered faster than the Raikage because they lack the skill.




> By Jiraiya using it _before_ he is at point-blank with Minato, unlike Obito's use of _Kamui_ to get into range to physically grab Minato. I said if Minato "starts to close in", not "after he's up close and personal".




Ah, but Hiraishin is teleportation. You don't see it coming. Point-blank can happen at anytime; it's dependent upon how Minato utilizes his Kunai.



> Base Jiraiya tanked being slammed into a wall by a boss summon hard enough to carve out a tunnel, so that's my baseline for _Hari Jizō_, until it gets dramatically enhanced by Sage Mode alongside Jiraiya's physical stats. So I personally don't see _Rasengan_ making 'quick work' of anything.




The Rasengan is not a battering ram. Tendo Pain got _smashed_ into a wall, and then proceeded to survive near the epicenter of a Bijuudama. Yet he was killed by Base Naruto's small Rasengan. It grinds away at the surface of the target, and then it explodes (which is usually when the target is sent spiraling away) and does major damage. 

It's interaction with the points of Hari Jizo would be interesting, and honestly, neither or us know enough about HJ's peak capabilities to truthfully judge. However, Jiraiya cannot see or move while using the technique, so Minato is free to wait for him to come out, setting up marks all around J-man in the meantime, ensuring a flash kill when Jiraiya decides he wants to go on the offensive. 




> Yes 30 meters is long range, which is why Jutsus with such a reach are classified as _long range Jutsus_.




Range is dependent upon the fighter. A Jutsu that reaches 30 meter out in considered a long range Jutsu, but 30m is not long range to certain individuals. The best example are large creatures than can cover 30m by leaning forward. However, another example is any man or woman with exceptional speed. Minato has traversed far greater distances than 30 pretty much instantly. It's long enough for Jiraiya to survive insta-blitzing, but nothing that gives J-man an extreme advantage.


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## Rocky (Oct 11, 2013)

> *Spoiler*: _Why you are wrong and Flamey is right once again_
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Might tackle this later...


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## FlamingRain (Oct 11, 2013)

Rocky, I am currently readying to go on an annual family trip, so I can respond, but it will probably be a while.

I will be back maybe tomorrow. :33


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 11, 2013)

Jiraiya said it best:

Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 11, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Jiraiya said it best:
> 
> Aw come on, everybody pales in comparison to the fourth lord. As a shinobi his capacity was unparalleled, a true one-of-a kind.


We know Minato is stronger than Jiraiya, Elite Uchiha. What is primarily being argued is if Minato can damage Jiraiya in Sage Mode who has insane durability behind him. In Sage Mode, Jiraiya is effectively the worst opponent for Minato to fight since none of his attacks or usual maneuvers can even damage him.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> We know Minato is stronger than Jiraiya, Elite Uchiha. What is primarily being argued is if Minato can damage Jiraiya in Sage Mode who has insane durability behind him. In Sage Mode, Jiraiya is effectively the worst opponent for Minato to fight since none of his attacks or usual maneuvers can even damage him.



Minato can very easily damage Jiraiya; this is the same man who threatened the Raikage with a kunai and wrecked Obito's Zetsu parts with a Rasengan.

Killing Jiraiya will take a little bit of work, though; J-man's not completely helpless.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Minato can very easily damage Jiraiya; this is the same man who threatened the Raikage with a kunai and wrecked Obito's Zetsu parts with a Rasengan.
> 
> Killing Jiraiya will take a little bit of work, though; J-man's not completely helpless.


Jiraiya in base was sent crashing through thick steel pipes and through a skyscraper and then retaliated while in Sage Mode. And the Raikage isn't as durable as a Sage Mode user anyway.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya in base was sent crashing through thick steel pipes and through a skyscraper and then retaliated while in Sage Mode.



Jiraiya's Sage Mode activated at some unseen point during that impact.



> And the Raikage isn't as durable as a Sage Mode user anyway.



The Raikage is much more durable than any Sage Mode user we have seen. He tanked Chidori and a Raiton blade. No Sage Mode user can do that or has done anything remotely close to it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Jiraiya's Sage Mode activated at some unseen point during that impact.


Jiraiya was hit while he was in base.




> The Raikage is much more durable than any Sage Mode user we have seen. He tanked Chidori and a Raiton blade. No Sage Mode user can do that or has done anything remotely close to it.


You do realize electricity cancels out electricity, right? Its basically putting two opposite charges together. Sage Mode users have tanked falling into a bed of spikes, Kurama's insane strength (which is enough to crawl out of Chibaku Tensei while not at full power), the full charge (and kinetic impact) of a boss summon, and much more. A's the one lacking feats, not Sage Mode users who you continually underestimate.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya was hit while he was in base.



We actually have no way of knowing that, based on the scans. He was in base before Pain's summon tackled him; the very next panel shows the summon ramming into a building and Jiraiya is obscured. When he emerges, he is in Sage Mode.



> You do realize electricity cancels out electricity, right?



I didn't know that, but I eagerly await yet another informed physics lesson from you. You do have an impeccable history of making accurate scientific statements. 



> Its basically putting two opposite charges together.



Except electricity is a current of electrons, which are all negatively charged and flow to positively-charged areas (where fewer electrons are present).

If there are opposite charges connected, there is going to be an electrical current between them. Do you know how batteries work, mein square?

I am literally dying right now. I can't even. Where the hell do you come up with this stuff? 


EDIT: I don't believe this is the first time I've had to correct you on this subject, either.



> Sage Mode users have tanked falling into a bed of spikes,



Yeah, Chidori can easily cut through stone and steel like rice paper; falling on sharp rocks isn't the same.



> Kurama's insane strength (which is enough to crawl out of Chibaku Tensei while not at full power),



So what?



> the full charge (and kinetic impact) of a boss summon, and much more.



Again, so what? You're listing off feats the Raikage (or Killer B, or Kisame) should easily be able to replicate. Part I Naruto had a boss-sized snake roll over his leg and he was fine. The Raikage is a guy who can physically fight a Bijuu and shrug off the same attacks that can mutilate one. And you're talking about surviving one attack from a boss summon? Come on.



> A's the one lacking feats, not Sage Mode users who you continually underestimate.



Apparently you missed it, so I'll type it again:

A tanked Chidori and a Raiton-charged sword to the neck.

The same attacks that can casually dismember the Hachibi, which withstood its own Bijuudama. Sasuke's Raiton attacks split conventional shinobi tools like cheap plywood; Chidori barely got through the Raikage's Raiton aura, much less his skin.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Oh right, you're the guy who believes that A's and Sasuke's attacks are stronger than Bijudama. Completely forgot about that.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Oh right, you're the guy who believes that A's and Sasuke's attacks are stronger than Bijudama. Completely forgot about that.



So you're going to distract from the issue by committing a genetic fallacy and use it as your excuse to run away. All right.

But I'll correct you on one more thing: I never said A's and Sasuke's attacks are stronger than Bijuudama; your own faulty understanding of measuring attack power has caused you to misconstrue my reasoning.

Bijuudama has a greater yield than anything the Raikage or Sasuke bring to the table. However, their attacks concentrate their power on a much narrower area; as a result, they are able to achieve greater penetration.

This is evident in their feats. Bijuudama can't take the limbs off of the Hachibi; Chidori Eisou and the Raikage's karate chop can.

You really ought to come up with a better defense than "I don't like it so it must be false" one of these days.

Until then, go pick up a middle school physical science textbook and educate yourself, because the level of comprehension you displayed with that tidbit about opposite electrical charges was just embarrassing.


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## Rocky (Oct 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> Bijuudama has a greater yield than anything the Raikage or Sasuke bring to the table. However, their attacks concentrate their power on a much narrower area; as a result, they are able to achieve greater penetration.




Mini Bijuudama has always complicated that argument. That Justu is just a very small portion of Bijuudama, yet it's stronger than the Rasengan. The Rasengan in turn is either equal or slightly more powerful than the Chodiri.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Mini Bijuudama has always complicated that argument. That Justu is just a very small portion of Bijuudama, yet it's stronger than the Rasengan. The Rasengan in turn is either equal or slightly more powerful than the Chodiri.



Mini Bijuudama has a greater yield as well, but doesn't focus that power on a tighter area.

If you're asking which one would win in a clash...do I even need to explain? Yeah, Rasengan or Chidori would penetrate it, but then it would blow up and snuff them out along with the poor bastard behind them.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> We actually have no way of knowing that, based on the scans. He was in base before Pain's summon tackled him; the very next panel shows the summon ramming into a building and Jiraiya is obscured. When he emerges, he is in Sage Mode.


I think its quite clear Jiraiya was in base when he was hit. Sage Mode's reveal afterwards was to show the one-shot.




> I didn't know that, but I eagerly await yet another informed physics lesson from you. You do have an impeccable history of making accurate scientific statements.


Its a standard in fiction. Electricity is canceled out by electricity. 




> Except electricity is a current of electrons, which are all negatively charged and flow to positively-charged areas (where fewer electrons are present).
> 
> If there are opposite charges connected, there is going to be an electrical current between them. Do you know how batteries work, mein square?
> 
> ...


Except in fiction, which I was referring to, electricity cancels out electricity. Hell look at what happened when Sasuke tried to cut Bee's stingers with Chidori Gatana, Bee just charged up his sword, blocked it, and turned Sasuke into a pin cushion. 




> Yeah, Chidori can easily cut through stone and steel like rice paper; falling on sharp rocks isn't the same.


Falling on dozens of extremely sharp spikes from an insanely high height is different than just being dropped from five feet up. Hell Naruto was FACE FIRST through it.




> So what?


If Naruto can survive undamaged by Kurama's physical strength, which can dig out of a small planetoid, A's strength is nothing and its a superior durability feat.




> Again, so what? You're listing off feats the Raikage (or Killer B, or Kisame) should easily be able to replicate. Part I Naruto had a boss-sized snake roll over his leg and he was fine. The Raikage is a guy who can physically fight a Bijuu and shrug off the same attacks that can mutilate one. And you're talking about surviving one attack from a boss summon? Come on.


Part I Naruto took on a large snake, but it wasn't boss size and he needed Kurama's chakra to take it on. We saw in the Sannin battle, that type of snake isn't anywhere near the size of a boss summon. And no, A isn't a guy who can physically battle a Biju-that is his _father_. A only landed a SINGLE blow when Gyuki was distracted after skewering Motoi's father, then Gyuki was sealed. You're not only exaggerating A's feat, you're completely forgetting he has NO feats of actually taking a blow from something that big. Hell he was standing by his dad's side through MOST of the battle, not even taking part of the chaining up Gyuki went through.




> Apparently you missed it, so I'll type it again:
> 
> A tanked Chidori and a Raiton-charged sword to the neck.
> 
> The same attacks that can casually dismember the Hachibi, which withstood its own Bijuudama. Sasuke's Raiton attacks split conventional shinobi tools like cheap plywood; Chidori barely got through the Raikage's Raiton aura, much less his skin.


A shorted out a Chidori and deflected a Raiton-charged sword to the neck with a flex of his aura due to the Raiton canceling effects. And no, neither technique can 'casually dismember Gyuki'. Severing the tails which are made to be cut off is different than actually cutting through his arm. Not only that, severing the horn isn't as good a feat as you continue to bring up.

And you're using A>B>C logic too.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 12, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I think its quite clear Jiraiya was in base when he was hit. Sage Mode's reveal afterwards was to show the one-shot.



It isn't clear, regardless of what you think. It isn't shown. It isn't evident in the manga because it was intentionally obscured. 

There is room for interpretation here. What is NOT open to interpretation is the fact that it's unverifiable and open to interpretation.

Honestly, it's nothing the Raikage shouldn't be able to easily replicate either way.



> Its a standard in fiction. Electricity is canceled out by electricity.



>Claims pseudoscientific physical phenomenon is a standard.
>Doesn't provide any relevant examples or cite a source.



> Except in fiction, which I was referring to, electricity cancels out electricity. Hell look at what happened when Sasuke tried to cut Bee's stingers with Chidori Gatana, Bee just charged up his sword, blocked it, and turned Sasuke into a pin cushion.



That seems to happen any time you take two generic masses of magical energy and ram them together. It's generally decided by which one is stronger, which doesn't at all detract from the Raikage's ability to withstand those attacks.



> Falling on dozens of extremely sharp spikes from an insanely high height is different than just being dropped from five feet up. Hell Naruto was FACE FIRST through it.



Raikage had a blade made of guided electrical current that can shear through steel rammed into his chest and it stopped. Killer B cut through Zabuza's beheader with a Raiton sword. Sasuke's Raiton sword countered B's Raiton sword. Sasuke's Raiton sword bounced off the back of the Raikage's neck.



> If Naruto can survive undamaged by Kurama's physical strength, which can dig out of a small planetoid, A's strength is nothing and its a superior durability feat.



Naruto survived one attack, not a vigorous and concentrated attempt at burrowing through his body. The fact that his body is so much smaller than Kurama's and is more resilient than generic earthen material like every named character and their grandmother also helps.



> Part I Naruto took on a large snake, but it wasn't boss size and he needed Kurama's chakra to take it on.



I hope you're not implying that Part I Naruto with a no-tailed Kyuubi chakra enhancement is more durable than the Raikage.

that type of snake isn't anywhere near the size of a boss summon.

In terms of scale, that snake seems exactly about as big as a boss summon, given a reasonable margin of error for demonstrable inconsistencies in Kishimoto's artwork. At the very least, it ought to be comparable to the one we saw in the Sannin fight.



> We saw in the Sannin battle, that type of snake isn't anywhere near the size of a boss summon.



It looks very close to the size of a boss summon:

that type of snake isn't anywhere near the size of a boss summon.



> And no, A isn't a guy who can physically battle a Biju-that is his _father_. A only landed a SINGLE blow when Gyuki was distracted after skewering Motoi's father, then Gyuki was sealed. You're not only exaggerating A's feat,



A did damage the Hachibi and he's faster than his dad- so fast that Sasuke's Sharingan can't track him and his body can't keep up. Short of tanking a Bijuudama, yes, A has displayed everything it takes to fight a Bijuu. He is a Kage, after all.



> you're completely forgetting he has NO feats of actually taking a blow from something that big.



Size is completely irrelevant. B sumo-wrestles giant bears for fun...and wins. He subjugated an entire island full of them. A took _several_ of B's Lariats without sustaining visible damage. His body is covered in Raiton chakra that repels attacks that can dismember Bijuu.



> A shorted out a Chidori and deflected a Raiton-charged sword to the neck with a flex of his aura due to the Raiton canceling effects.



No one EVER said this phenomenon was unique to Raiton-Raiton interaction. The same thing happens when Chidori hits Rasengan; Jutsu of equal strength cancel each other out. In the Raikage's case, Sasuke's Chidori was slightly stronger and put a scratch on him. That tells you exactly how tough it is to breach that Raiton armor.



> And no, neither technique can 'casually dismember Gyuki'.



...That's exactly what happened. A chopped off one of its horns and Sasuke chopped off one of its tentacles. Neither of them struggled with it.



> Severing the tails which are made to be cut off



"Made to be cut off"? Based on what, exactly?



> is different than actually cutting through his arm.



Back that up with some evidence, so that I can refute it by pointing out that the Hachibi sustained uniform damage across its entire body from its own Bijuudama.



> Not only that, severing the horn isn't as good a feat as you continue to bring up.



Again, based on what?



> And you're using A>B>C logic too.



Yeah, that's the transitive property of mathematics.

Let's see you tackle that one next.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2013)

Niku, the snake hit Naruto's leg and Naruto's leg snapped, the destruction that slam caused was also inferior to what was caused by the ram.

Jiraiya didn't get his bones broken by being smashed into a wall hard enough to tunnel it out.

That is the big difference you are overlooking.



Rocky said:


> I'm asking you to back your bold claim that Jiraiya will cope with Flying Thunder God simply because he is "looking out for" the markers. That is a lackluster defensive argument, as watching out for them does not entail that Jiraiya will stop every one that comes his way. Minato is regarded as a creative "once in a generation genius." There is a very slim chance that Jiraiya, Fukasaku, & Shima can consistently evade a Jutsu that is so versatile; the only prerequisite is placing a hunk a metal within a few feet of the target. If that happens, Jiraiya *cannot* mount a defense in time to Minato's strikes.
> 
> What will Jiraiya do should Minato grab a large quantity of Kunai and throws them in J-man's direction while flickering forward? Remember that the goal is not accuracy; Minato only needs one marker in Jiraiya's general vicinity to complete the set up for a Hiraishin flank. Jiraiya could possibly interrupt Minato's flicker, but then those Kunai are coming at him at the rate of Minato's Shunshin (they will decelerate rapidly, but they will start off at the speed of the vessel that launched them, which is Minato).
> 
> ...



I don't see the lackluster aspect of claiming that a trio of very experienced Sages (two by several centuries, one by half a century) who can sense and throw up a rather expansive detection barrier, being primarily ranged combatants unlike the close-quarters oriented fighters we have seen Minato pitted against, with the mobile one being fairly comparable to base Minato's speeds, can effectively defend from _Hiraishin_ when familiar with it and starting at 30 meters.

As I said initially, I don't believe there is a significant enough gap for Minato to comfortably overcome the stipulations of this thread being advantageous to Jiraiya. I'm well aware that Minato was regarded as a 'once in a generation genius', but the exact same was said of Orochimaru, one of the three prodigies that are recognized as the Sannin which include Jiraiya who is very intelligent himself, the elders even more so, and Minato himself regarded Jiraiya's skills as so exemplary that everyone ought to follow. I'm reluctant to put more faith in Minato's planning ability than the collective capacity of the Myōbokuzan trio. 

Jiraiya can dart backwards faster than a kunai flies (a larger quantity will not make them fly faster) and in all likelihood farther than it will stay airborne. Ay got nailed once he charged into it in an attempt to crush Minato, and Obito, similarly, got nailed once he charged through it in an attempt to grab Minato. There will be no such charging in by Minato's opponent here, who has access to less risky offenses and is well aware of that fact. In neither of those cases concerning Ay or Obito was the problem the rate at which the Kunai soared through the air, but rather the positioning of the Kunai, which is an advantage largely taken away against an enemy with superior sensory abilities who can cause a swamp to remotely pop into existence and suck in the very surfaces the seals lay upon as he attempts to maintain his distance.

I fail to see how Minato's utilization of _Hiraishin_ 'simulates' traditional speed. Overcome it? Yeah why not, but simulate it? I don't think so, and I don't believe Kishi's reference to it as speed changes the fact that it isn't traditional.

I already clarified that I'm not contesting whether or not Hiraishin is classified as 'speed', but Kidomaru > Neji didn't stop Neji from killing Kidomaru, so matches between specific individuals can actually still be debatable.



> Yomi Numa is not going to completely sink Minato before he can flick up a Kunai if the Raikage's v2 flicker couldn't connect before Minato could flick up a Kunai.
> 
> In Kishi's book, Hiraishin is considered "speed" just as much as Ei's Shunshin is. That doesn't mean we ignore the mechanics of FTG, but it does mean that Minato is skillful enough with the technique to still be considered "faster" than Ei. It doesn't have anything to do with the instantaneous teleportation.



It needn't be able to.

Us not ignoring the mechanics of _Hiraishin_ is exactly why I make it a point to differentiate it from traditional speed. How you do something is often as important as whether or not you can do it, and as you can probably tell I believe this is one of those cases where method matters. The Jutsu being instantaneous teleportation is the _entire reason_ Minato is considered faster than Ay; you can't get faster than instantaneous, and as you've just stated _Hiraishin_ is considered 'speed'.



> Ah, but Hiraishin is teleportation. You don't see it coming. Point-blank can happen at anytime; it's dependent upon how Minato utilizes his Kunai.



You don't see it coming _if_ you unknowingly step near a mark, and Minato doesn't want to hold his breath waiting for three sensors to do such a thing with possession of an ability to submerge said marks hastily.

It is every bit as dependent upon how Jiraiya, Fukusaku, and Shima respond to Minato's Kunai utilization.



> The Rasengan is not a battering ram. Tendo Pain got _smashed_ into a wall, and then proceeded to survive near the epicenter of a Bijuudama. Yet he was killed by Base Naruto's small Rasengan. It grinds away at the surface of the target, and then it explodes (which is usually when the target is sent spiraling away) and does major damage.
> 
> It's interaction with the points of Hari Jizo would be interesting, and honestly, neither or us know enough about HJ's peak capabilities to truthfully judge. However, Jiraiya cannot see or move while using the technique, so Minato is free to wait for him to come out, setting up marks all around J-man in the meantime, ensuring a flash kill when Jiraiya decides he wants to go on the offensive.



Deva had already been hampered by blows from Sage Naruto, his own _Shinra Tensei_ being smacked back into him, and the shockwave of a _Bijūdama_ from KN6, all of which are especially powerful moves, as well as exhausted by the use of _Chibaku Tensei_ (the path is dead, but Nagato was exhausted and that in turns reflects in Deva). It was only after that point that Naruto was able to kill him with a base _Rasengan_.

Deva faltering cannot be chalked up simply due to a difference in damage delivery method, if that's what you're implying, because he was already severely weakened at the time that he faltered, which Jiraiya won't be here.

Additionally, Jiraiya can 'see' through use of the detection barrier. Minato can try waiting out Jiraiya if he wants to, but that tactic isn't going to interrupt Ma and Pa's chant, and his placement of seals isn't going to save him from the resulting Genjutsu, which, being sound based, wouldn't require Jiraiya to exit his defense in order to be cast.



> Range is dependent upon the fighter. A Jutsu that reaches 30 meter out in considered a long range Jutsu, but 30m is not long range to certain individuals. Minato has traversed far greater distances than 30 pretty much instantly. It's long enough for Jiraiya to survive insta-blitzing, but nothing that gives J-man an extreme advantage.



There is some measure of truth in that statement, but Jiraiya should be able to quickly cross large distances not so unlike Minato (excluding _Hiraishin_), so, from their perspective, which is what really matters, it should still be long-range, especially when Minato is the one trying to close the gap whilst Jiraiya is the one working with the large ranged arsenal. Minato can't interrupt a retreating Jiraiya as easily as Jiraiya can interrupt an advancing Minato.


----------



## Rocky (Oct 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see the lackluster aspect of claiming that a trio of very experienced Sages (two by several centuries, one by half a century) who can sense and throw up a rather expansive detection barrier, being primarily ranged combatants unlike the close-quarters oriented fighters we have seen Minato pitted against, with the mobile one being fairly comparable to base Minato's speeds, can effectively defend from _Hiraishin_ when familiar with it and starting at 30 meters.
> 
> As I said initially, I don't believe there is a significant enough gap for Minato to comfortably overcome the stipulations of this thread being advantageous to Jiraiya. I'm well aware that Minato was regarded as a 'once in a generation genius', but the exact same was said of Orochimaru, one of the three prodigies that are recognized as the Sannin which include Jiraiya who is very intelligent himself, the elders even more so, and Minato himself regarded Jiraiya's skills as so exemplary that everyone ought to follow. I'm reluctant to put more faith in Minato's planning ability than the collective capacity of the Myōbokuzan trio.
> 
> ...




Like I already said, "watching out" is not a very effective defensive strategy. The detection barrier & Ma's tongue sensing simply give Jiraiya more ways to keep watch over the Markers, but you've yet to list any ways of how Jiraiya will effectively stop _every single one _from coming anywhere near him. In order to win, he has to keep Minato from getting into close range, or he'll be quickly overwhelmed by Minato's speed. He has the means to locate the Kunai so Minato doesn't surprise him, but he doesn't sport the defensive Jutsu necessary to ensure absolutely none of them _ever_ come within a few meters of him.

In Jiraiya's own words, Minato is an unparallelled Shinobi that no one compares to. I really think the outcome of a fight between them is clear. That's the way I talk about MJ in basketball, or Peyton playing quarterback. There's a pretty large gap between those guys and me. You make the stipulation argument, but these circumstances are not unfair in any sense of the word. They both have knowledge, 30 meters is a medium (neutral) distance, there's a neutral location (no location given, so assumed neutral), and there's no restrictions. 

I put complete faith in Minato's genius level intelligence over the intelligence of 3 above average level shinobi. Three people with an I.Q. of 100 working together aren't going to outsmart someone with an I.Q or 300, or even 200. I'm again fully aware that Orochimaru is a genius as well, but he and Jiraiya are two completely different people. Them sharing the same title is irrelevant when discussing individual aspects of their characters.

You keep referring to Ei & Obito, and their differences from Jiraiya. Well I know, and I'm not arguing that J-man will fall the exact same way. First off, Jiraiya does not move faster than Kunai thrown _while Minato is utilizing the body flicker_. Minato's Kunai when thrown on the move are faster than his base speed; those Kunai will start off at a speed greater than Minato Shunshin, which Jiraiya is not faster than. He won't be "darting back" as he'll be casting a Jutsu to stop Minato from just rushing in and killing him. He must stop his retreat to cast such Jutsu, so he won't continuously gain distance like you suggest. Minato isn't going to blitz Jiraiya with Kunai, but J-man certainly won't be comfortably dodging all of them by _multiple meters_. It just won't happen, and it never happens in the Manga when looking at _all _weapon users.

If you believe Minato's Hiraishin is _better_ than traditional speed (what does that even mean) then I don't need to argue that point anymore. Neji saying that Kidomaru is stronger than him if *far* different than Jiraiya saying "everyone pales on comparison to the unparalleled 4th lord." Also, just because something stands true for Kidomaru and Neji doesn't mean it does for everyone. Hashirama vs Jubito is not a debatable fight, for example. And by the way, Neji tied with Kidomaru, and needed advanced medical Ninjutsu to save his life.



FlamingRain said:


> IThe Jutsu being instantaneous teleportation is the _entire reason_ Minato is considered faster than Ay; you can't get faster than instantaneous, and as you've just stated _Hiraishin_ is considered 'speed'.




No, it isn't. As I said, Genma & Raido can use Hiraishin, but they aren't considered faster than Ei. Tobirama can use Hiraishin, but he wasn't considered faster than Ei. Obito has a form of instantaneous transportation, yet he wasn't considered faster than Ei.

Obviously Hiraishin travels faster than the v2 Shunshin, but it isn't the "entire" reason Minato is considered faster than Ei. Not even close.




FlamingRain said:


> You don't see it coming _if_ you unknowingly step near a mark, and Minato doesn't want to hold his breath waiting for three sensors to do such a thing with possession of an ability to submerge said marks hastily.




Jiraiya cannot sense, he is an imperfect Sage with no sensing feats. Pa is debatable, but we've never seen him do it, and IIRC Ma had to use her tongue. The fact the Asura Relam was able to sneak up on J-man's flank _completely unnoticed_ and proceed to rip his arm off before he could react makes me hesitant on granting perfect sensing to any of them. 

Yomi Numa is not an adequate counter to spreading marks every which way across the battlefield. Minato was also able to spread them around the Jubi without anyone noticing, the Juubi is far larger than any swamp Jiraiya can create. Minato won't be helpless against the Jutsu in the slightest.

Minato can also place marks of summons or clones, and Jiraiya will not see that coming unless he see's Minato perform the action.




FlamingRain said:


> Deva had already been hampered by blows from Sage Naruto, his own _Shinra Tensei_ being smacked back into him, and the shockwave of a _Bijūdama_ from KN6, all of which are especially powerful moves, as well as exhausted by the use of _Chibaku Tensei_ (the path is dead, but Nagato was exhausted and that in turns reflects in Deva). It was only after that point that Naruto was able to kill him with a base _Rasengan_.
> 
> Deva faltering cannot be chalked up simply due to a difference in damage delivery method, if that's what you're implying, because he was already severely weakened at the time that he faltered, which Jiraiya won't be here.
> 
> Additionally, Jiraiya can 'see' through use of the detection barrier. Minato can try waiting out Jiraiya if he wants to, but that tactic isn't going to interrupt Ma and Pa's chant, and his placement of seals isn't going to save him from the resulting Genjutsu, which, being sound based, wouldn't require Jiraiya to exit his defense in order to be cast.




I know that Tendo Pain was damaged, but that doesn't mean much to me. Rasengan would've had to have been considerably above the level of damage he'd previously received to kill him immediately like that. You're a fighter, you know that taking a beating throughout a fight doesn't automatically mean any punch that cleanly lands in the gut will flat out kill you.

Fighting by relying solely on the detection barrier has not been tested, and I doubt it completely compensates for a lack of eyesight. Furthermore, yes Jiraiya does have to exit his defense to use Frog Song.  There's a reason he didn't just camp it out against the Pains. I'm guessing it was because the sound would reflect right back at him if the Toads sung right into his hair barrier.



FlamingRain said:


> There is some measure of truth in that statement, but Jiraiya should be able to quickly cross large distances not so unlike Minato (excluding _Hiraishin_), so, from their perspective, which is what really matters, it should still be long-range, especially when Minato is the one trying to close the gap whilst Jiraiya is the one working with the large ranged arsenal. Minato can't interrupt a retreating Jiraiya as easily as Jiraiya can interrupt an advancing Minato.




Minato's weapons are an extension of his speed. Thrown projectiles usually move as fast, or even faster than the Shinobi that throw them, so Jiraiya is going to have difficulty consitently avoiding Minato's Kunai by large margins. 

Most of "Jiraiya's long range arsenal" is completely shut down or even redirected by the Space/Time Barrier. Yomi Numa is an exception, but to cast that, J-man must stop, form his seals and place his hands on the ground. Either of these Shinobi should be able to cross 30 meters nigh-instantaneously, so coming to a stop is a very very bad thing.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 12, 2013)

Wait, didnt SM Jiraiya get his arm ripped off by Pain?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Wait, didnt SM Jiraiya get his arm ripped off by Pain?


Asura Path, which is strong enough to restrain Killer B like he's a little kid.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> The detection barrier & Ma's tongue sensing simply give Jiraiya more ways to keep watch over the Markers, but you've yet to list any ways of how Jiraiya will effectively stop _every single one _from coming anywhere near him.



By moving, like I said he would, he isn't stationary.



> In Jiraiya's own words, Minato is an unparallelled Shinobi that no one compares to



He said that in the very same chapter he gave his contemporary Tsunade very similar praise by saying nobody could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her in either combat or medicine. That means she's peerless, which means the same thing as unparalleled.

So I'm going to disagree with the implication that such a statement means the victor is clear, rather heavily.



> They both have knowledge, 30 meters is a medium (neutral) distance, there's a neutral location (no location given, so assumed neutral), and there's no restrictions.



And then you have to consider that Minato can only deal damage up close.



> I put complete faith in Minato's genius level intelligence over the intelligence of 3 above average level shinobi. Them sharing the same title is irrelevant when discussing individual aspects of their characters.



Well I certainly don't, because they're more than 'above average'. There's no suggestion that any gap in intelligence between Minato and Jiraiya is huge. Being hailed as a prodigy _is synonymous with_ being hailed as a genius and that is something _all three_ members of the Sannin have been heralded as. Then you factor in the addition of two centuries old Sages on top of that.



> Minato's Kunai when thrown on the move are faster than his base speed;



No they aren't. Minato himself directly moving just means they can be thrown in a wider spread if need be.



> He won't be "darting back" as he'll be casting a Jutsu to stop Minato from just rushing in and killing him. He must stop his retreat to cast such Jutsu, so he won't continuously gain distance like you suggest.



Jiraiya does not have to stop to form a handseal, and unlike Ohnoki's golems _Yomi Numa_ does not require contact with the ground. The first time we saw Jiraiya utilize the Jutsu he was _in the air_.



> Also, just because something stands true for Kidomaru and Neji doesn't mean it does for everyone.



And this also applies in reverse, which is the entire reason topics can be debated.



> As I said, Genma & Raido can use Hiraishin, but they aren't considered faster than Ei. Tobirama can use Hiraishin, but he wasn't considered faster than Ei. Obito has a form of instantaneous transportation, yet he wasn't considered faster than Ei.



Minato's direct movement and reactions have been stated to be on the same level as base Ay's. Shrouded Ay is superior in those regards, but apparently not _so_ superior that someone with reflexes on the level of his base self would be completely blitzed. If Minato isn't completely blitzed, he can teleport, and you don't get faster than that. For that reason, he was formerly considered the fastest shinobi in the world.

Genma and Raido have to link up with Iwashi first in order to even use it, and would get blitzed in the process, so they couldn't be considered 'faster' than Ay.

Tobirama had been dead for decades. Considering that Ay said he was the fastest now that Minato was dead, we can conclude that dead people aren't considered for the title. Additionally, we know that living shinobi don't all have full knowledge on the shinobi of the past, and Tobirama was more well known for his Suitons, so Ay may not have even known he possessed _Hiraishin_ in the first place.

_Kamui_ is not instant either.



> Jiraiya cannot sense, he is an imperfect Sage with no sensing feats. Pa is debatable, but we've never seen him do it, and IIRC Ma had to use her tongue. The fact the Asura Relam was able to sneak up on J-man's flank _completely unnoticed_ and proceed to rip his arm off before he could react makes me hesitant on granting perfect sensing to any of them.



I'd think being an imperfect Sage would simply mean he can't sense as well as Naruto, not that he can't sense at all.

Sage sensing is also not a passive ability iirc. Naruto consciously did it in order to locate everyone when he arrived in the village, did he not?

The detection barrier is a sensing barrier, either way.



> Yomi Numa is not an adequate counter to spreading marks every which way across the battlefield. Minato was also able to spread them around the Jubi without anyone noticing, the Juubi is far larger than any swamp Jiraiya can create. Minato won't be helpless against the Jutsu in the slightest.



Yomi Numa was one of the larger AoE Jutsus whilst Jiraiya was drugged and in base; he one that immediately sucked in a boss snake was 'tiny' compared to his typical swamp, and the dramatic Senjutsu boost would naturally ensue that what he is capable of in his heightened form is far beyond even that. The Jutsu can be used remotely as well.

You've already acknowledged that we don't know whether or not Minato used KCM (there are no restrictions, but I won't assume he has it unless specified that he is an Edo or otherwise), and when you consider that Minato arrived a fairly significant amount of time before the other Hokages, meaning nobody was actually paying attention to him, the feat becomes less impressive than you seem to be trying to make it out to be. It isn't hard to do something without anyone noticing when they aren't paying attention.



> Minato can also place marks of summons or clones, and Jiraiya will not see that coming unless he see's Minato perform the action.



Why wouldn't he see Minato perform the action? And why would Jiraiya be any more inclined to let a clone or summon near him regardless?



> Rasengan would've had to have been considerably above the level of damage he'd previously received to kill him immediately like that.



No it wouldn't have. 



> You're a fighter, you know that taking a beating throughout a fight doesn't automatically mean any punch that cleanly lands in the gut will flat out kill you.



It is because I'm a fighter that I'm aware the longer a fight drags out the more things start to hurt like hell.

Deva isn't one of the manga's regenerators, so when damage is dealt it remains significant throughout the rest of the battle.



> Fighting by relying solely on the detection barrier has not been tested, and I doubt it completely compensates for a lack of eyesight.



It doesn't need to if Minato is trying to wait Jiraiya out.



> Furthermore, yes Jiraiya does have to exit his defense to use Frog Song.



No he doesn't.



> There's a reason he didn't just camp it out against the Pains. I'm guessing it was because the sound would reflect right back at him if the Toads sung right into his hair barrier.



Maybe it had something to do with the fact that he'd be using a Ninjutsu to turtle up against a path that can absorb Ninjutsu, which is stupid? He didn't even know what special abilities Human possessed and why would he let Animal summon a giant to send him hurtling down the hallway when he could just punt him off of the ceiling and into the floor?

Sound wouldn't be blocked by a covering of stands of hair, btw, no matter how hard those stands are.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> It isn't clear, regardless of what you think. It isn't shown. It isn't evident in the manga because it was intentionally obscured.
> 
> There is room for interpretation here. What is NOT open to interpretation is the fact that it's unverifiable and open to interpretation.
> 
> Honestly, it's nothing the Raikage shouldn't be able to easily replicate either way.


Not really. We see Jiraiya in base being smashed through the pipes and skyscraper, and then Jiraiya exits in Sage Mode. Jiraiya lacked Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders after all when the Boss Ram hit. 




> >Claims pseudoscientific physical phenomenon is a standard.
> >Doesn't provide any relevant examples or cite a source.


It is honestly a standard in fiction. Lightning vs Lightning always cancels itself out. Hell from the series that Naruto took the most out of for its Elemental Rashomon, Pokemon, its the same way. Lightning just is ineffective against itself.




> That seems to happen any time you take two generic masses of magical energy and ram them together. It's generally decided by which one is stronger, which doesn't at all detract from the Raikage's ability to withstand those attacks.


From the panel, its quite clear the electricity shorted each other out. Hell how does Sasuke counter the next Raiton flow? Charging another chidori and sending it through the Kubikiribocho to short out Bee's flow.




> Raikage had a blade made of guided electrical current that can shear through steel rammed into his chest and it stopped. Killer B cut through Zabuza's beheader with a Raiton sword. Sasuke's Raiton sword countered B's Raiton sword. Sasuke's Raiton sword bounced off the back of the Raikage's neck.


Sasuke's Raiton bounced off A's Shroud, as shown before Raiton vs Raiton cancels one another out.




> Naruto survived one attack, not a vigorous and concentrated attempt at burrowing through his body. The fact that his body is so much smaller than Kurama's and is more resilient than generic earthen material like every named character and their grandmother also helps.


Naruto's SM _clone_ survived the stomp from a creature which can pull out of the gravitational pull and millions of tons of rock through sheer physical strength. Its comparable to me stomping on a ant and the ant survives.




> I hope you're not implying that Part I Naruto with a no-tailed Kyuubi chakra enhancement is more durable than the Raikage.
> 
> Shroud
> 
> In terms of scale, that snake seems exactly about as big as a boss summon, given a reasonable margin of error for demonstrable inconsistencies in Kishimoto's artwork. At the very least, it ought to be comparable to the one we saw in the Sannin fight.


Given Kurama's power it shouldn't be impossible, and he never took it head on like Jiraiya did. And said snake is smaller than the Boss Summons, even crushed underfoot by Gamabunta!




> It looks very close to the size of a boss summon:
> 
> Shroud


Not really. Its been crushed under foot by the boss summons.




> A did damage the Hachibi and he's faster than his dad- so fast that Sasuke's Sharingan can't track him and his body can't keep up. Short of tanking a Bijuudama, yes, A has displayed everything it takes to fight a Bijuu. He is a Kage, after all.


How do you know he's faster than his dad? We've never seen the Sandaime Raikage's full speed. Hell the manga made it clear they have comparable speeds. And the manga made it _clear_ the Sandaime Raikage was the only Kage (minus Hashirama of course) that can go toe to toe with a Tailed Beast.

Hell even the manga showed A standing back and helping with the restraints behind his dad, which Gyuki casually resisted and broke out of and only attacking after Motoi's dad got impaled. Not much of a fight compared to what his dad was supposed to do.


> Size is completely irrelevant. B sumo-wrestles giant bears for fun...and wins. He subjugated an entire island full of them. A took _several_ of B's Lariats without sustaining visible damage. His body is covered in Raiton chakra that repels attacks that can dismember Bijuu.


Giant bears who aren't summons thus are weaker than summons. And no, you're again exaggerating A's power.




> No one EVER said this phenomenon was unique to Raiton-Raiton interaction. The same thing happens when Chidori hits Rasengan; Jutsu of equal strength cancel each other out. In the Raikage's case, Sasuke's Chidori was slightly stronger and put a scratch on him. That tells you exactly how tough it is to breach that Raiton armor.


I've cited several times that Raiton vs Raiton usually equals a short out of both. The Raiton no Yoroi vs Chidori clash caused a massive electrical discharge with both techs shorting out.




> ...That's exactly what happened. A chopped off one of its horns and Sasuke chopped off one of its tentacles. Neither of them struggled with it.


A chopped off a horn when Gyuki was distracted and Sasuke had gravity's help when the tentacle FELL on his blade. Gyuki is half octopi, octopi's tentacles are MADE to come off when there's danger.




> "Made to be cut off"? Based on what, exactly?


Its a defense mechanism. Octopi, which Gyuki is half of, always have their tentacles be easily severed if there's danger. Sacrifice one tentacle or two tentacles, get away and grow them back at a later date.  




> Back that up with some evidence, so that I can refute it by pointing out that the Hachibi sustained uniform damage across its entire body from its own Bijuudama.


Its basic biology? Gyuki got gored by Kokuo who could send him flying half a kilometer without losing his arm. Hell even his own Bijudama didn't vaporize his arms. Yet you want me to believe A can casually cut off the limbs _Gyuki can't afford to lose_, or even his fingers? You are mistaking defensive mechanisms like easily severed tentacles or a horn that would grow back at a later date for a bodypart Gyuki can't afford to lose.




> Again, based on what?


For one, A only did it when Gyuki was distracted. For two, Gyuki, being based on a bull can REGROW said horn.


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## Ƶero (Oct 12, 2013)

SM Jiraiya is underrated but he basically said Minato was the best ninja he's ever come across so I'll go with what he says.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 12, 2013)

Ƶero said:


> SM Jiraiya is underrated but he basically said Minato was the best ninja he's ever come across so I'll go with what he says.


Note: No one doubts that Sage Mode Jiraiya is weaker than Minato. What is being argued, is that with Minato's rather limited (but effective against other opponents) arsenal would even _damage_ Jiraiya while he is in Sage Mode considering all the punishment he can take without damage.


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## Rocky (Oct 12, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> By moving, like I said he would, he isn't stationary.




If Jiraiya dodged a Kunai thrown at him, Minato can simply jump to that Kunai and throw another. Eventually, Minato's going to get close enough. A man who's best speed feat is beating his sandal to the ground isn't consistently out maneuvering one of the the fastest Shinobi in the verse.




> He said that in the very same chapter he gave his contemporary Tsunade very similar praise by saying nobody could stand shoulder-to-shoulder with her in either combat or medicine. That means she's peerless, which means the same thing as unparalleled.
> 
> So I'm going to disagree with the implication that such a statement means the victor is clear, rather heavily.




You support me. 

Jiraiya used present tense in his praise of Tsunade. "There *are* none." That doesn't include the dead. He basically admitted inferiority to her. However, "everybody pales in comparison to the 4th lord" would include everyone that Jiraiya knows of, including Tsunade. 

Jiraiya < Tsunade < 4th Lord. Point still stands.  




> And then you have to consider that Minato can only deal damage up close.




So? Doesn't refute what I said.



> Well I certainly don't, because they're more than 'above average'. There's no suggestion that any gap in intelligence between Minato and Jiraiya is huge. Being hailed as a prodigy _is synonymous with_ being hailed as a genius and that is something _all three_ members of the Sannin have been heralded as. Then you factor in the addition of two centuries old Sages on top of that.




 specifically refers to intellect. Prodigy does not. Now, one could be an intellectual prodigy, but I don't think Jiraiya was regarded as a "prodigy" for his intelligence anymore than Mozart was.



> No they aren't. Minato himself directly moving just means they can be thrown in a wider spread if need be.




When Minato threw his Kunai at Obito, it traveled at his speed if not faster.




> Jiraiya does not have to stop to form a handseal, and unlike Ohnoki's golems _Yomi Numa_ does not require contact with the ground. The first time we saw Jiraiya utilize the Jutsu he was _in the air_.




Yes, I overlooked this. I was pulling feats from his Sage fight.




> Minato's direct movement and reactions have been stated to be on the same level as base Ay's. Shrouded Ay is superior in those regards, but apparently not _so_ superior that someone with reflexes on the level of his base self would be completely blitzed. If Minato isn't completely blitzed, he can teleport, and you don't get faster than that. For that reason, he was formerly considered the fastest shinobi in the world.




So you agree? That's basically what I said. The teleportaion alone is not what makes Minato faster than Ei, because then everyone with teleportaion would outspeed the Raikage.




> Sage sensing is also not a passive ability iirc. Naruto consciously did it in order to locate everyone when he arrived in the village, did he not?
> 
> The detection barrier is a sensing barrier, either way.




Sage Naruto passively sensed the War happening around him. He didn't even know about it, so it isn't like he was trying to do so.

The barrier is nothing more than detection of movement. It isn't a reflex-enhancement like danger sensing.




> Yomi Numa was one of the larger AoE Jutsus whilst Jiraiya was drugged and in base; he one that immediately sucked in a boss snake was 'tiny' compared to his typical swamp, and the dramatic Senjutsu boost would naturally ensue that what he is capable of in his heightened form is far beyond even that. The Jutsu can be used remotely as well.
> 
> You've already acknowledged that we don't know whether or not Minato used KCM (there are no restrictions, but I won't assume he has it unless specified that he is an Edo or otherwise), and when you consider that Minato arrived a fairly significant amount of time before the other Hokages, meaning nobody was actually paying attention to him, the feat becomes less impressive than you seem to be trying to make it out to be. It isn't hard to do something without anyone noticing when they aren't paying attention.




Sage Jutsu don't necessarily get bigger, they get stronger. Jiraiya's swamp would probably become more adhesive, and considering the one he actually used in Sage Mode was smaller, I'm like that explanation. 

Minato spread those Kunai after saving the alliance from the Jubi, a which point everyone was concentrating on him. If he spread them before, you would have to argue that Minato took his time running around the Ten-Tails placing those marks while an apocalyptic bomb was advancing uncontested towards his friends and family, which is stupid. The first thing he would have done is remove the Bijuudama.



> Why wouldn't he see Minato perform the action? And why would Jiraiya be any more inclined to let a clone or summon near him regardless?




Because it isn't that difficult to conceal placing a mark on something, and it isn't that difficult getting close to Jiraiya.




> No it wouldn't have.




Yes, it would.



> It is because I'm a fighter that I'm aware the longer a fight drags out the more things start to hurt like hell.




Hurts like hell =/= kill



> It doesn't need to if Minato is trying to wait Jiraiya out.




Orochimaru was able to maneuver around the Hari Jizo and bite Jiraiya, _without his arms._ I don't think Minao will have any issues finding an opening on a J-man with limited vision.



> No he doesn't.




Can he even use the technique with the toads on his shoulder?



> Sound wouldn't be blocked by a covering of stands of hair, btw, no matter how hard those stands are.




Blocked, no. Partially reflected, yes.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 12, 2013)

Rocky said:


> If Jiraiya dodged a Kunai thrown at him, Minato can simply jump to that Kunai and throw another.



Jiraiya can dodge backwards, and keep going backwards. . .

Heck, Shima's accelerant Fūton might even stall or blow back incoming airborne Kunai.



> You support me.
> 
> Jiraiya used present tense in his praise of Tsunade. "There *are* none." That doesn't include the dead. He basically admitted inferiority to her. However, "everybody pales in comparison to the 4th lord" would include everyone that Jiraiya knows of, including Tsunade.
> 
> Jiraiya < Tsunade < 4th Lord. Point still stands.



Not in the slightest.

For starters, Jiraiya's words preceding that were "_to this day_",and "still" preceded "none"; in other words "since that time". Such a statement _would_ include Minato whether he is deceased or not, as he rose to fame within that time frame.

"Everybody paling in comparison" is nothing more than a reiteration of being 'unparalleled', and 'peerless' continues to mean the same thing, it doesn't have to be spelled out in those exact words every time.

I doubt you legitimately believe Jiraiya < Tsunade given that he's ranked higher than she is on your tier list, but even if you did it wouldn't do more than lend credence to  there being no clear cut victor given Jiraiya's threat to take Tsunade's life and her being notably more wary of him than Orochimaru, the individual Hiruzen implied Minato would have to sacrifice his life against in order to protect the village from him, in spite of everyone's belief that if one of the other Sannin returned they would be sufficient to stop him.



> So? Doesn't refute what I said.



Both could easily traverse 30 meters rapidly, Minato can only deal damage up close, Jiraiya can deal damage at range, with them starting at a distance leaving Jiraiya out of Minato's reach whilst Minato is within Jiraiya's.

Minato is at an initial disadvantage. You might say it isn't insurmountable, but those are not even circumstances.



> specifically refers to intellect. Prodigy does not. Now, one could be an intellectual prodigy, but I don't think Jiraiya was regarded as a "prodigy" for his intelligence anymore than Mozart was.



Thank you for making it clear that you can't read. Even within the very link you just provided there are definitions of genius _*not*_ referring intellect. Heck, I've been called a 'genius' by my martial arts instructors and I'm absolutely certain they weren't meaning "you're IQ's over 140".

The terms remain synonymous going both ways, especially in this manga. That's why Neji could be considered the greatest 'genius' of the Hyūga clan despite scoring lower than Hinata, the failure of the clan, in terms of intellect. It's why Sasuke was a 'genius', too with consistently lower intelligence ratings than Sakura. It's why Lee has been called a 'genius' _of hard work_.



> When Minato threw his Kunai at Obito, it traveled at his speed if not faster.



No, because it goes from being further ahead than the measure of his arm to being shorter than the length of his shoulder to elbow before he warps to it a couple steps later.

Distance decreasing = slower movement. If it's decelerating _that fast_ I'm not going to see that as a problem for Jiraiya.



> Yes, I overlooked this. I was pulling feats from his Sage fight.







> So you agree? That's basically what I said.



Somehow I took it that you were implying _Hiraishin_ being instant had nothing to do with it, while I was simply trying to clarify that Minato couldn't be faster than Ay without _Hiraishin_ being instantaneous.



> Sage Naruto passively sensed the War happening around him. He didn't even know about it, so it isn't like he was trying to do so.



He was suspicious of something being hidden from him and wanted to find out what it was, whilst in Sage Mode, so I wouldn't be too sure that was a passive example of sensing because why not try looking for something in the most effective way?



> The barrier is nothing more than detection of movement.



Detection of movement is all it needs to be. Jiraiya will be alerted each time Minato leaps through Space-Time. It doesn't need to be reflex enhancing.



> Sage Jutsu don't necessarily get bigger, they get stronger. Jiraiya's swamp would probably become more adhesive, and considering the one he actually used in Sage Mode was smaller, I'm like that explanation.
> 
> Minato spread those Kunai after saving the alliance from the Jubi, a which point everyone was concentrating on him. If he spread them before, you would have to argue that Minato took his time running around the Ten-Tails placing those marks while an apocalyptic bomb was advancing uncontested towards his friends and family, which is stupid. The first thing he would have done is remove the Bijuudama.



I don't see how Jiraiya using a human sized swamp to trap a single human sized target (no pun intended, Human path) makes it more plausible than Senjutsu increasing its potential size. We know Jiraiya can make it vastly larger than that whilst drugged, and Jiraiya complained about that vastly larger swamp insufficient because it was tiny, not weak.


Removing the _Bijūdama_ didn't have to come first upon arrival if he was capable of getting back around to it in time anyway, not when he knows he's going to have to set up markers at four corners.

Considering that he stopped and started talking it's far more plausible that he circled (or 'squared'?) around and stopped the blast once he finished.



> Because it isn't that difficult to conceal placing a mark on something, and it isn't that difficult getting close to Jiraiya.



I'd have to scoff at the idea that it "isn't that difficult" to conceal placing a mark on something when the act of marking requires movement, which the multiple-times-the-size-of-a-100m-summon kind of expansive barrier alerts Jiraiya to, as well as the idea that it "isn't that difficult" getting close to a retreating figure of comparable speed in possession of the ability to interrupt your advance.



> Yes, it would.



Still no.



> Hurts like hell =/= kill



Don't skip the "more things start to" part.

Things start to hurt like hell more because damage has already been built up previously that hasn't recovered, resulting in it being easier to break someone down much in the same way it's easier to break down a wall with severe fractures extending across it than one that is in perfect condition. Easier breaking down goes hand in hand with easier killing.



> Orochimaru was able to maneuver around the Hari Jizo and bite Jiraiya, _without his arms._ I don't think Minao will have any issues finding an opening on a J-man with limited vision.



Well I'm going by what you proposed Minato doing, but Orochimaru specifically pointed out Jiraiya's condition when he did that. I'm not surprised that a Jiraiya unable to properly build up or mold his chakra because of a drug made by the world's leading medic wasn't able to completely grow his hair around him entirely when his other Jutsu had become 'tiny' compared to their typical usages. More chakra with more control leads to more hair growth and more and stronger cover.

Minato isn't going to smack into the needles and then try to pull it out of the way like the guy who doesn't care about being impaled.



> Can he even use the technique with the toads on his shoulder?



Don't see why not if he can use it with that giant scroll on his back.



> Blocked, no. Partially reflected, yes.



They wouldn't be partially reflected anymore than they were partially reflected by the surrounding pipes and hallways. Jiraiya could always hear the Jutsu just like everyone else in the vicinity, so it isn't as though he's going to Genjutsu himself or anything.

Minato would still become the victim of the chant once synched.


----------



## Deleted member 211714 (Oct 12, 2013)

At 30 meters, Senpou: Goemon or Yomi Numa should be able to burn/sink the kunai tags. I don't think Minato can overwhelm Jiraiya - from this distance, at least - and the man has too much experience under his belt.

With manga knowledge and two Sages atop his shoulders, Jiraiya has ample time to prepare for Magen: Gama Rinshou (through guerrilla tactics); their senses should make the fight easier, too.  Personally, I think Minato is the superior combatant, but his teacher happens to be a bad match-up.


SM Jiraiya takes the victory with mid-high difficulty.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> Jiraiya can dodge backwards, and keep going backwards. . .
> 
> Heck, Shima's accelerant Fūton might even stall or blow back incoming airborne Kunai.




Ah there we go, some actual defense strategies. Yes, Shima can defend against some, however I doubt she's accurate enough to repeatedly guard against them all. Also, Minato can create a clone and fire Kunai from different angles, making it impossible for Jiraiya to continuously dodge backwards.

I'd like to repeat that if this becomes a cat & mouse game, the _Yellow Flash_ gon' win son. 




> I doubt you legitimately believe Jiraiya < Tsunade given that he's ranked higher than she is on your tier list, but even if you did it wouldn't do more than lend credence to  there being no clear cut victor given Jiraiya's threat to take Tsunade's life and her being notably more wary of him than Orochimaru, the individual Hiruzen implied Minato would have to sacrifice his life against in order to protect the village from him, in spite of everyone's belief that if one of the other Sannin returned they would be sufficient to stop him.




I was just fucking with you, thus the "". I didn't actually read Jiraiya's full statement regarding Tsunade, but I will ask if it was the viz translation.




> Minato is at an initial disadvantage. You might say it isn't insurmountable, but those are not even circumstances.



Starting Minato within his range of attack is auto-win in most cases. Larger distances are given at the start of matches involving speedsters quite often. It isn't disadvantageous toward the speedster, it's mercy toward his opponent. It's the reason you don't see matches with the Raikage at 5m. He'll tear your head off.



> Thank you for making it clear that you can't read. Even within the very link you just provided there are definitions of genius _*not*_ referring intellect. Heck, I've been called a 'genius' by my martial arts instructors and I'm absolutely certain they weren't meaning "you're IQ's over 140".
> 
> The terms remain synonymous going both ways, especially in this manga. That's why Neji could be considered the greatest 'genius' of the Hyūga clan despite scoring lower than Hinata, the failure of the clan, in terms of intellect. It's why Sasuke was a 'genius', too with consistently lower intelligence ratings than Sakura. It's why Lee has been called a 'genius' _of hard work_




I can read, but I'm starting to question if you know what context is. There were 3 definitions of genius. Obviously, your martial arts example fits #2; you have a strong aptitude for it.  Same stands true for Lee & hard work. Genius of the Hyuuga, genius of the Uchiha, etc. these describe Shinobi that have a strong grasp of (aptitude for) their clan techniques. Neji was incredibly gifted in the Hyuuga's techniques, and Sasuke in the Uchiha's. Thus, geniuses of their clans. _That_ is the definition synonymous with "prodigy."

Now, Jiraiya referred to Minato as just a "rare genius" that you don't see too often. That's it. Is the #2 definition of genius applicable, or the #1? Was he said to be a genius "of, "for," or "at," something? I certainly don't see how definition two fits in that situation, unless Minato was a genius of being "kind yet full of grit."  Logical conclusion is that Minato was a traditional genius in the intellectual sense. 




> Distance decreasing = slower movement. If it's decelerating _that fast_ I'm not going to see that as a problem for Jiraiya.




The decease in distance is incredibly minor, and I did say they would decelerate. It's harder to completely dodge Ninja weapon projectiles than your making it out to be. Hell, I can't recall the last time someone dodged a thrown weapon by more than few inches. 



> He was suspicious of something being hidden from him and wanted to find out what it was, whilst in Sage Mode, so I wouldn't be too sure that was a passive example of sensing because why not try looking for something in the most effective way?




This makes it sound as if sensing is turned on and off. I'm hesitant because I don't recall sensing ever being stated to be an active ability. Usually, sensors just have it on at all times. With Jiraiya & co., Ma had to use handseals and appeared to do something with her tongue in order to locate the chameleon. If there was Naruto-level sensing present in that group, why was Animal Realm not detected immediately?  



> Detection of movement is all it needs to be. Jiraiya will be alerted each time Minato leaps through Space-Time. It doesn't need to be reflex enhancing.




Being alerted to Minato's movements does nothing if he cannot react to them, which he doesn't have the reflexes too accomplish. 



> Removing the _Bijūdama_ didn't have to come first upon arrival if he was capable of getting back around to it in time anyway, not when he knows he's going to have to set up markers at four corners.
> 
> Considering that he stopped and started talking it's far more plausible that he circled (or 'squared'?) around and stopped the blast once he finished.




I am not conceding that Minato arrived at the battlefield before his dramatic arrival at the battlefield, observed the Bijuu Bomb about to end the alliance, and decided he would gamble and spread the markers around the Juubi before the threat was dealt with. We'll just have to agree to disagree.



> I'd have to scoff at the idea that it "isn't that difficult" to conceal placing a mark on something when the act of marking requires movement, which the multiple-times-the-size-of-a-100m-summon kind of expansive barrier alerts Jiraiya to, as well as the idea that it "isn't that difficult" getting close to a retreating figure of comparable speed in possession of the ability to interrupt your advance.




You don't even know how that barrier works. When something crosses the barrier, position is given away. It does not detect what that thing was, or what action is performed, or really do anything other than inform Jiraiya that something's moved. Minato could create a clone, and Jiraiya's going to know Minato moved. Minato could mark that clone, but Jiraiya's not going to know the specifics to what Minato just did. Minato could've raised his arm, or started running, or made a hansdeal, etc. The barrier is movement detection only.

Jiraiya has no means to stop Minato's advance. Minato can go around all of Jiraiya's Jutsu, including Yomi Numa, with a thrown Hiraishin tag. Where is this coming from anyway? Jiraiya didn't continuously retreat against Pain until his Genjutsu was ready. He instead opted to take a gamble and try and isolate the bodies so he could fight one on one while the Toads prepared Gama Rinsho.

I'm also going to withdraw my concession on Jiraiya's base speed being equal to Minato's, as I actually went back and read the fight. He blitzed none of the bodies, and his best feat remains out-speeding a free falling shoe. 




> Well I'm going by what you proposed Minato doing, but Orochimaru specifically pointed out Jiraiya's condition when he did that. I'm not surprised that a Jiraiya unable to properly build up or mold his chakra because of a drug made by the world's leading medic wasn't able to completely grow his hair around him entirely when his other Jutsu had become 'tiny' compared to their typical usages. More chakra with more control leads to more hair growth and more and stronger cover.
> 
> Minato isn't going to smack into the needles and then try to pull it out of the way like the guy who doesn't care about being impaled.




If there is truly no vision, then Jiraiya is stuck relying on his detection barrier, and therefore would not know the specifics of Minato's actions. 

Minato could literally create a clone, have it throw 50 Kunai into the air, and have it warp between them rapidly, sending frantic signals of movement, overloading Jiraiya's sense. While Jiraiya sits blind in Hari Jizo wondering what the hell is happening, Minato waltzes up to him, touches a Kunai to the hair, and sends him to a desolate area like the middle of the ocean (where he canonically has tags placed).




> They wouldn't be partially reflected anymore than they were partially reflected by the surrounding pipes and hallways. Jiraiya could always hear the Jutsu just like everyone else in the vicinity, so it isn't as though he's going to Genjutsu himself or anything.
> 
> Minato would still become the victim of the chant once synched.




After reading Jiraiya's fight again, this match won't ever come to that point. Should Jiraiya attempt using the Genjutsu, Minato will hear the synching process. I'm sure Minato wouldn't wait there for the Genjutsu to take full effect, so he'll warp Jiraiya away, using a Rasengan or Kunai to protect his hands from the spikes of Hari Jizo.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2013)

Alright, I don't concede, but I'm _probably_ done after this because I'll be back to short responses for a while soon, and these aren't short.



Rocky said:


> Ah there we go, some actual defense strategies. Yes, Shima can defend against some, however I doubt she's accurate enough to repeatedly guard against them all. Also, Minato can create a clone and fire Kunai from different angles, making it impossible for Jiraiya to continuously dodge backwards.
> 
> I'd like to repeat that if this becomes a cat & mouse game, the _Yellow Flash_ gon' win son.



They don't all need to be guarded against in that manner considering that Jiraiya will be on the move focusing on evasion whilst sinking grounded marks with dark swamps. Jiraiya can make Sage clones to play with Minato's clones, and he can continuously dodge backwards unless Minato manages to run around Jiraiya and cut him off from an angle that isn't frontal.

I don't see that happening because that involves moving massively faster than Jiraiya, Minato ain't throwing those Kunai with Tsunade level strength behind them and he isn't running much faster than Jiraiya himself is.



> I didn't actually read Jiraiya's full statement regarding Tsunade, but I will ask if it was the viz translation.



It was.



> Starting Minato within his range of attack is auto-win in most cases.



'Most cases' is not 'this one'.



> I can read



Yeah that was me being an ass out of nowhere again. 

Sorry. 



> There were 3 definitions of genius. Obviously, your martial arts example fits #2; you have a strong aptitude for it.  Same stands true for Lee & hard work. Genius of the Hyuuga, genius of the Uchiha, etc. these describe Shinobi that have a strong grasp of their clan techniques. Neji was incredibly gifted in the Hyuuga's techniques, and Sasuke in the Uchiha's. Thus, geniuses of their clans. _That_ is the definition synonymous with "prodigy."
> 
> Now, Jiraiya referred to Minato as just a "rare genius" that you don't see too often. That's it. Is the #2 definition of genius applicable, or the #1? Was he said to be a genius "of, "for," or "at," something? I certainly don't see how definition two fits in that situation, unless Minato was a genius of being "kind yet full of grit."  Logical conclusion is that Minato was a traditional genius in the intellectual sense.



I'm just going to stop you and question your own comprehension of context in return.

Minato's praise has come forth in the context of strength and heroism as a shinobi as is the case with several of the other hype-monsters in the manga.

The large array of instances in which the term 'genius' has primarily been used throughout the manga are what set the precedent for one to assume it is the 2nd definition by default unless specified otherwise, as is the case with Shikamaru whose IQ was actually brought up during his praise, unlike Minato.

But can I ask where you're drawing Jiraiya's statement from? If you mean his chat with Tsunade before going after Akatsuki, I'm fairly sure that what Jiraiya said was that Minato "had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade", not "rare genius you don't see too often".



> The decease in distance is incredibly minor, and I did say they would decelerate.



Being minor over an incredibly minor time frame. Minato nearly caught back up and ran into that thing in like two steps.



> It's harder to completely dodge Ninja weapon projectiles than your making it out to be.



Why exactly?



> Hell, I can't recall the last time someone dodged a thrown weapon by more than few inches.



Well these all look like a couple meters to me, two a couple _dozen_: _(1)_, _(2)_, _(3)_, _(4)_, _(5)_.



> This makes it sound as if sensing is turned on and off.



Karin and C turn theirs on and off, and so do the Yamanaka.



> Being alerted to Minato's movements does nothing if he cannot react to them, which he doesn't have the reflexes too accomplish.



Why doesn't he? Minato's base movements aren't Sage-blitzing last I checked.



> I am not conceding that Minato arrived at the battlefield before his dramatic arrival at the battlefield, observed the Bijuu Bomb about to end the alliance, and decided he would gamble and spread the markers around the Juubi before the threat was dealt with. We'll just have to agree to disagree.



Alright then.

But can I ask why such a thing would be a 'gamble' on Minato's part in the first place? Or how you figure he only got there as the bomb was about to end the alliance? As far as I can recall we only know when he popped up in front of Naruto and Sakura, not when he got there period.



> When something crosses the barrier, position is given away. It does not detect what that thing was, or what action is performed, or really do anything other than inform Jiraiya that something's moved.



How can you conclude that _Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin_ _doesn't_ inform Jiraiya 'an arm just moved over here' instead of 'something over here just moved' when Animal remained stationary while it was in use.

I'd think that if it feels something move it should be able to feel its form.

But regardless if something is continuously moving such as a kunai its position is continuously given away, until it stops, where it will remain and Jiraiya will be aware that it is. Jiraiya can just go ahead and assume that a sudden 'stop and start' is a tag manually being placed in that vicinity. Those all become Yomi Numa targets and it also isn't as though Jiraiya is going to be tracing Minato's steps with his own. A certain amount of vagueness shouldn't be a problem.

Jiraiya opted for range initially, when that didn't work Taijutsu and when that didn't work he went right back to staying out of range. I'm pretty sure Jiraiya's got the sense not to challenge a legendary space-time close-combat specialist in close-quarters when that isn't his preference in the first place. He'd naturally just try to stay at range.

Minato cannot simply run through giant several dozen meter swamp. Minato would have to halt his advancement, then fling the kunai, and that would be what you call an interruption.



> He blitzed none of the bodies, and his best feat remains out-speeding a free falling shoe.



I'm hoping you didn't go re-read that fight if you can say that.

Jiraiya counter-blitzed Human _(6)_, dropped his shoes _(7)_ and morphed into what I'm assuming was a quicker form as he talked before deciding to cross the room and get right into Preta's face before those shoes touched the ground _(8)_, jumped out of the Rinnegan's field of vision _(9)_, blitzed Animal and punted him down the hall _(10)_, and finally escaped the Rinnegan's field of vision yet again after all six paths were revealed and rushed him _(11)_.

Pein's reactions fared _better_ against speedy characters such as Kakashi and Sage Naruto himself.

Minato's only confirmed base speed feat involves catching a newborn before it fell onto a Kunai from a relatively short distance and I'm not too impressed by the _Yatai Kuzushi_ feat if that was even done without _Hiraishin_ as I've already said. Base Ay's feat is blitzing a Zetsu over a desk. . .so transitive extension of that isn't putting him _above_ Sage Jiraiya's level of speed either.



> While Jiraiya sits blind in Hari Jizo wondering what the hell is happening, Minato waltzes up to him, touches a Kunai to the hair, and sends him to a desolate area like the middle of the ocean (where he canonically has tags placed).



I don't really consider this a 'win', honestly. But whatever. Jiraiya's hair is detachable.



> After reading Jiraiya's fight again, this match won't ever come to that point. Should Jiraiya attempt using the Genjutsu, Minato will hear the synching process. I'm sure Minato wouldn't wait there for the Genjutsu to take full effect, so he'll warp Jiraiya away, using a Rasengan or Kunai to protect his hands from the spikes of Hari Jizo.



If Jiraiya wasn't aware of their Genjutsu Minato won't be either. Pein suffered a delayed reaction each time the chant was in synch for even a split second, and if it does that to a corpse being manipulated like a puppet that Nagato is controlling with such precision that they share emotional expression, I'd hate to think what kind of delay a living creature such as Minato would suffer as the synchronization was in progress likely quicker than it was the last time (since it's likely more familiar with them this time than it was last time since they hate doing it so much, and were reluctant to perform it to save the world, with me not convinced the world is at stake often).

_Rasengan_ can't protect Minato's hands whilst he's placing a seal. The seal is placed with his bare hands. He tapped Obito with his bare hands after _Rasengan_ dissipated. Needles will still be in the way in this case, so Minato'd get his hand turned into swiss cheese before he placed a mark.


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## Master Sephiroth (Oct 13, 2013)

Minato's Kunai strike took out Obito's arm like butter. Obito blocked the Executioner's Blade with his arm. One can only wonder how much more durable Obito possibly could have gotten since then. It's clear though that his Kunai strikes with Chakra enhancement are lethal if placed properly. 

The simplest way to beat Jiraiya would be to get the toads off his shoulders. One Rasengan each should do the trick or one Kunai strike. He can still beat SM Jiraiya head on though because of how broken FTG is. 

SM Jiraiya is still inferior to base Minato. It's as simple as that.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2013)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Minato's Kunai strike took out Obito's arm like butter.



Not quite _(1)_.

Seems like _Rasengan_ did that.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

FlamingRain said:


> I don't see that happening because that involves moving massively faster than Jiraiya, Minato ain't throwing those Kunai with Tsunade level strength behind them and he isn't running much faster than Jiraiya himself is.




Jiraiya is going to have his focus _split_ between running and casting defensive Jutsu in an attempt to slow Minato down. Minato will be completely focused on catching up Jiraiya, and because of that he's going to close distance. Once he sees it once, Yomi Numa isn't going to do much to slow Minato down. It helps that Minato just generally operates on a different their of speed than Jiraiya. 

It sort of baffles me how you seem to be adamant in supporting the notion that Jiriaya can consistently _outrun the Yellow Flash._ This is honestly how you would see Kishimoto drawing a fight between the two? It reminds me of how people say Nagato soloes Hashirama with Preta Path & CT due to match-up advantage. 



> But can I ask where you're drawing Jiraiya's statement from? If you mean his chat with Tsunade before going after Akatsuki, I'm fairly sure that what Jiraiya said was that Minato "had the sort of talent you only find once in a decade", not "rare genius you don't see too often"




The . I struggle in that scan to see how the second definition of genius can be applied. What does Minato have an aptitude for?



> Being minor over an incredibly minor time frame. Minato nearly caught back up and ran into that thing in like two steps.




They do not need to move at his speed for very long to get the job done. They're primarily for escaping J-man's techniques, and then used in set up for the finishing blitz. 




> Why exactly?




Because if one comes anywhere near Jiraiya at any time, Minato will be on top of him. His _warp radius_ is huge.



> Well these all look like a couple meters to me, two a couple _dozen_: _(1)_, _(2)_, _(3)_, _(4)_, _(5)_.




I'm not looking at where they end up, I'm looking at their position when the Kunai's hit the ground, tree, wall, or whatever they ended up hitting. In each of those scans, the person dodging would have been in Minato's warp radius, or close enough that he could warp to that mark and immediate;ly enter close range with a Shunshin or another marker.




> Karin and C turn theirs on and off, and so do the Yamanaka.




They turn it off, or they mask their Chakra? 



> Why doesn't he? Minato's base movements aren't Sage-blitzing last I checked.




I'm talking about Minato's Hiraishin which is used in perfect harmony with his base abilities. 



> As far as I can recall we only know when he popped up in front of Naruto and Sakura, not when he got there period.




When do you think he got there?

Kishi had him make a pretty dramatic entrance, so I really think suggesting he arrived at the battle before it is silly.



> How can you conclude that _Kekkai: Tengai Hōjin_ _doesn't_ inform Jiraiya 'an arm just moved over here' instead of 'something over here just moved' when Animal remained stationary while it was in use.
> 
> I'd think that if it feels something move it should be able to feel its form.
> 
> ...




The barrier has no showings, so we should not automatically grant it these detailed feats. It was said to detect movement, so why would it be anymore than that? Of course I don't know anything for sure though. Hell, what's its Databook entry?

I have a problem with Jiraiya being able to conclude any sudden stop n' start is Minato marking something. He has no way of being sure, and Minato could take advantage of that by making false maneuvers. 

Every time Jiraiya wants to cast Yomi Numa, he has to _stop using Shunshin_ to do so. That's huge, as it allows Minato to massively close distance with his own. Minato can just activate the body flicker while jumping when Jiraiya makes the handseal to form the swamp. That way he'll clear the swamp in the air and come much closer to Jiraiya. I'm also going to add that Minato can mark himself, and this means he can warp any Kunai sunk by the swamp back into his hands, and then proceed to re-spread them.





> I'm hoping you didn't go re-read that fight if you can say that.
> 
> Jiraiya counter-blitzed Human _(6)_, dropped his shoes _(7)_ and morphed into what I'm assuming was a quicker form as he talked before deciding to cross the room and get right into Preta's face before those shoes touched the ground _(8)_, jumped out of the Rinnegan's field of vision _(9)_, blitzed Animal and punted him down the hall _(10)_, and finally escaped the Rinnegan's field of vision yet again after all six paths were revealed and rushed him _(11)_.
> 
> ...




Kicking the free falling Pain out of the air isn't that impressive considering Pain can't move in the air....In link 11, I don't see how Jiraiya left the Rinnegan's field of vision. The counter-kick to Human's face was a good reflxes/power feat, but Jiraiya...didn't actually go anywhere. I was more referring to flicker feats. Jiraiya's out speeding of his sandal is expected.  Even Preskip Bell Test Kakashi was faster than the Shinobi eye (Preskip Sakura) can track, and that's massively faster than a sandal in free fall.

Minato's best flicker/speed feat is by far his saving of Kushina. Kurama was in the process of smashing her into the ground, and Minato teleports in, realizes that he and Kushina are in immediate danger, grabs her, and still manages to Shunshin outta there before Kurama's hand hits the ground. The impressive part is that Kurama was noted to be incredibly fast by Sage Naruto himself.



> If Jiraiya wasn't aware of their Genjutsu Minato won't be either. Pein suffered a delayed reaction each time the chant was in synch for even a split second, and if it does that to a corpse being manipulated like a puppet that Nagato is controlling with such precision that they share emotional expression, I'd hate to think what kind of delay a living creature such as Minato would suffer as the synchronization was in progress likely quicker than it was the last time (since it's likely more familiar with them this time than it was last time since they hate doing it so much, and were reluctant to perform it to save the world, with me not convinced the world is at stake often




Nagato immediately deduced that the Toads were attempting Genjutsu upon first hearing them. Minato isn't going to play that shit. Sound Genjutsu is an issue for him. He'll run over to Hari Jizo-camping Jiraiya and warp him away. 

At WORST Shiki Fuujin would be used, but Minato has other options.



> I]Rasengan[/I] can't protect Minato's hands whilst he's placing a seal. The seal is placed with his bare hands. He tapped Obito with his bare hands after _Rasengan_ dissipated. Needles will still be in the way in this case, so Minato'd get his hand turned into swiss cheese before he placed a mark.




Minato doesn't need to place a seal on Jiraiya to warp him. Minato can warp anything that he or his Chakra is touching. Rasengan is Minato's Chakra, so therefore Minato can warp a Jiraiya touching Minato's Rasengan with his Hari Jizo.


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## Ghost (Oct 13, 2013)

SSM12 

Jiraiya was in SM when he got hit by that summon.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 13, 2013)

Knowledge: manga?

So, Jiraiya knows to say away from Minato. Use hari jizo when Minato teleports and frog call(not frog song) to stop him from attacking.

I don't see Minato's rasengan breaking through a sage mode hari jizo. I would say that Jiraiya, given his larger arsenal has more chance to win. Base Minato has poor offense and Jiraiya can nullify some of his offensive attacks. Yomi numa can sink tags, which gives him less options to teleport. Hari jizo can protect him from rasengan and frog call can give Jiraiya an opening


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

saikyou said:


> SSM12
> 
> Jiraiya was in SM when he got hit by that summon.


He lacks Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulderswhen the ram hit him at full force, thus he wasn't in Sage Mode Saikyou.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2013)

Had a minute after all.



Rocky said:


> Jiraiya is going to have his focus _split_ between running and casting defensive Jutsu in an attempt to slow Minato down.



He really isn't, though. That's the good thing about working on such a large scale, especially one accessible while you are still running away. Cast a jutsu in a vague direction and you're still likely to catch what you're intending to.



> Minato will be completely focused on catching up Jiraiya, and because of that he's going to close distance.



Minato will be focused on trying to evade and trying to catch up to Jiraiya at the same time, not completely focused on catching up to Jiraiya.



> Once he sees it once, Yomi Numa isn't going to do much to slow Minato down.



This is more unsubstantiated than anything you tried to harp on me about.



> This is honestly how you would see Kishimoto drawing a fight between the two?



Mmhmm. I'm aware that's unpopular opinion but if I'm being asked of my own views honestly, it wouldn't matter what other posters agree anyway.

The 'hero winning in the end' becomes irrelevant because Minato isn't trying to save anybody but himself. General superiority only goes so far for me, and I don't think the gap between Minato and the Sannin is a very sizable one; not sizable enough to grant a win in spite of match ups, that is. I can even go to your response below about the possibility of Shiki Fūjin, because that's basically already been suggested by Hiruzen concerning Orochimaru when he said to Anko they couldn't rely on Minato to give up his life _again_, and proceeds to stop Orochimaru using the life-sacrificing Jutsu.



> It reminds me of how people say Nagato soloes Hashirama with Preta Path & CT due to match-up advantage.



Wat?

There is no match-up advantage present there.



> The . I struggle in that scan to see how the second definition of genius can be applied.



Ah.

But my answer to that question is what I stated in my previous post. In most instances 'genius' is related to combat skill and/or potential. Primary usage is the default assumption unless specified otherwise. I mean, even before Lee was called a 'genius' of hard work, he was striving to be a 'genius', and went about it by attempting to become a splendid Taijutsu specialist, not a strategist  or anything.

We've no indicator that the sense in which Jiraiya was referring to Minato switched and we have him praising Minato's character there, which fits definition 2 by 'inclination' and definition 3. Why don't we also look to one of your linked definitions of 'prodigy', though? In Jiraiya's fourth sentence the extraordinary act or event Minato performed was becoming Hokage in the blink of an eye. That's consistent with the fact that Hiruzen chose Minato over Orochimaru because of a difference in personality. Those testaments go back to capacity as a shinobi, the people typically expected to go out and sneak around and do combat, not become Einsteins.



> They do not need to move at his speed for very long to get the job done.



Yes they do if they're trying to close a gap with him while he's on the move, because how else are they going to close in to set up for anything?



> Because if one comes anywhere near Jiraiya at any time.



The question was referring to why it would be so difficult for Jiraiya to avoid them coming near him while retreating in the opposite direction.



> I'm not looking at where they end up, I'm looking at their position when the Kunai's hit the ground, tree, wall, or whatever they ended up hitting.



Yeah I know. And those look like a couple meters to me. Consider how large those projectiles are in relation to a human normally, and then consider the equation that size changes proportionate to distance (double distance - half the size, for example). Tsunade is already a few meters away by the time that kunai hits the ground in that first scan as evidenced by it being slightly longer than the length of her lower body. Bent knees or not she's obviously more than a few inches away. Same with Kisame being out of the way by the time the attached kunai from the grenade hit the water despite the explosion that launched them having been at point blank with himself. Deidara having already circled around the trees a couple meters thick scaling off of the pursuing shadows, Tenten, as well as his bird and own body, etc. Perhaps a better scan of avoiding Sasori's projectiles would have been page 13, though.

Not sure how accurate the measurement of your second scan is since Minato hit the ground and slid after the warp, adding onto the radius, but you did say he could enter close-range after, so. . .



> They turn it off, or they mask their Chakra?



It seems like masking their Chakra requires them to turn it off since Karin stated that she'd needed to mask her chakra or she'd be found out by C trying to look for Danzō.



> I'm talking about Minato's Hiraishin.



And I'm talking about prevention based on reacting to his base abilities in direct movement and Kunai slinging.



> When do you think he got there?



I think he may have gotten there between the Dotons and Bee or something but my point is that we don't know.

I certainly don't think he just blitzed around the Ten Tails and back in front of everyone.



> The barrier has no showings, so we should not automatically grant it these detailed feats. It was said to detect movement, so why would it be anymore than that?
> 
> I have a problem with Jiraiya being able to conclude any sudden stop n' start is Minato marking something. He has no way of being sure.
> 
> Every time Jiraiya wants to cast Yomi Numa, he has to _stop using Shunshin_ to do so. Minato can just activate the body flicker while jumping when Jiraiya makes the handseal to form the swamp. That way he'll clear the swamp in the air and come much closer to Jiraiya.



I only assume that because it has to feel something to detect it moving, right? If it does feel it move it should be able to make out its form as it moves, right? I almost think of it as if someone is pressing against a bubble. The databook entry gives no specifications other than the user being able to. . .detect stuff, but detection is by definition the action of _identifying_ presence. 

He doesn't have to be sure. False maneuvers only result in more swamps, which is detrimental to advancing Minato, not retreating Jiraiya.

Huh? Absolutely nothing about _Shunshin_ prevents Jiraiya from clasping his hands together for _Yomi Numa_ and as long as he can make the seal, he can make the swamp. Multiple Ninjutsu can be used simultaneously if that's what you're getting at; hence Jiraiya being able to perform two summons whilst maintaining the detection barrier and his clone spitting Katons whilst a shadow on the wall, or him doing it himself as a shadow on the floor against Konan.

Jumping meets with Shima's wind stream.

I don't see the point in marking himself. The mark's only purpose is to attach his chakra to something, his chakra is always present on his own person already without the need for a mark, yet he seemingly couldn't warp Kakashi back to himself. . .he had to warp to Kakashi and warp back to his bag of Kunai.



> Kicking the free falling Pain out of the air isn't that impressive considering Pain can't move in the air....In link 11, I don't see how Jiraiya left the Rinnegan's field of vision. The counter-kick to Human's face was a good reflxes/power feat, but Jiraiya...didn't actually go anywhere. I was more referring to flicker feats. Jiraiya's out speeding of his sandal is expected.



The "he was free falling" excuse isn't adequate when the 'blitz' stems from Animal's inability to perform a Jutsu before getting bounced down the hallway.

He escaped because when we come back 5 out of the paths were on a wild goose chase for him and the other was led into a trap, which he'd need to be out of sight to set. Lol @ a tiny frog trapping someone otherwise.

Jiraiya had to have moved when he kicked sensor-blitzing Human because he was no longer on top of that shoulder-width crater he created with his initial stomp when he revealed Sage Mode afterwards.

No it isn't to be expected when you _aren't starting at the same time as the sandals_ . That's the impressive part, it would've already been near the ground by the time Jiraiya leapt and went much further than that sandal did. That whole thing is a fictional trope that implies astonishing speed. Preta only managed to raise his arms at the last second despite that distance and his own ability to intercept _FRS_ from some way off after being revived.



> Minato's best flicker/speed feat is by far his saving of Kushina. The impressive part is that Kurama was noted to be incredibly fast by Sage Naruto himself.



"Teleports in, realizes they're in immediate danger" - can't even be said without knowing when Minato got there. Clearly his dramatic appearance on the tree wasn't his entrance. The burden of proof would be upon you to get across that Minato didn't get there and notice before Kurama began his attempt to crush Kushina.

Kurama was fast in the eyes of 20% Naruto as you would call it, which only got hit because the clone had yet to land after springing off of his tails. That doesn't place Kurama at Sage Naruto level speed considering that you don't have to be as fast as or faster than something to be acknowledged as fast in general.

Saving Kushina doesn't place Minato above Jiraiya's level of speed in my eyes at all. We'll just agree to disagree.



> Nagato immediately deduced that the Toads were attempting Genjutsu upon first hearing them. Minato isn't going to play that shit



He won't have much of a choice considering that Nagato only ever deduced what it was after a split-second synch screwed with his mentality and delayed his actions. Minato can't deduce it in any other way, and the effect it'd have on him is likely to be more severe given his status as an actual living creature as opposed to an extensively precisely controlled corpse puppet.



> Shiki Fuujin would be used



I could see that.


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 13, 2013)

If Jiraiya uses Shima and Fuka, why wouldnt Minato?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 13, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> If Jiraiya uses Shima and Fuka, why wouldnt Minato?


Minato doesn't use Sage Mode and never got the training for them?


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Minato doesn't use Sage Mode and never got the training for them?



He signed the frog contract and Shima and Fukasaku both know of Minato. Some things you need to use common sense for considering Naruto summoned Bunta without even knowing who he was


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## Senjuclan (Oct 13, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> He signed the frog contract and Shima and Fukasaku both know of Minato. Some things you need to use common sense for considering Naruto summoned Bunta without even knowing who he was



Then explain why Minato does not summon them now? You know after he was told sage mode from Myobokuzan is the only thing that works on Obito?


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 13, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Then explain why Minato does not summon them now? You know after he was told sage mode from Myobokuzan is the only thing that works on Obito?



The same reason Naruto has not summoned them. The same reason Minato does not summon Bunta or any other toads he knows of. 

Its something called "Kishi wants this fight to be about Naruto and Sasuke."


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## Senjuclan (Oct 13, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> The same reason Naruto has not summoned them. The same reason Minato does not summon Bunta or any other toads he knows of.
> 
> Its something called "Kishi wants this fight to be about Naruto and Sasuke."



Naruto does not need them. He can use senjutsu himself.

Minato cannot use senjutsu, so he needs them. The toads are said to have only been summoned by very few people in history. This means even amongst those who signed the contract, few can summon them. Minato is not one of them


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## Elite Uchiha (Oct 13, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> Naruto does not need them. He can use senjutsu himself.



Frog Song and other frog jutsu would come in handy here. Having two other senjutsu users on his side turns the tide in his favor even more. So this still doesnt answer why Naruto does not summon them. 



> Minato cannot use senjutsu, so he needs them. *The toads are said to have only been summoned by very few people in history.* This means even amongst those who signed the contract, few can summon them. Minato is not one of them



Scan please? All I remember is that only a few people could use SM because it requires a large chakra pool. Not to mention Minato knows about Jiraiya's HM meaning he knows about Shima and Fukasaku.

You don't get it. Once you have signed the toad contract you can summon all toads.


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

FlamingRain, instead of us continuing to get nowhere in a quote war, I'm going to address one major point that isn't clear.

How is Jiraiya actually finishing Minato? If Jiraiya is somehow is consistent enough to continuously evade Minato, then Minato is going to turn around and go the other way once the Toads start synching their voices. If Jiraiya comes to a stop and camps in Hari Jizo, Minato will warp him away.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He lacks Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulderswhen the ram hit him at full force, thus he wasn't in Sage Mode Saikyou.



Please point out the panel where Jiraiya enters Sage Mode. If you can't, then stop claiming Jiraiya was hit before Sage Mode activated.



FlamingRain said:


> Niku, the snake hit Naruto's leg and Naruto's leg snapped, the destruction that slam caused was also inferior to what was caused by the ram.
> 
> Jiraiya didn't get his bones broken by being smashed into a wall hard enough to tunnel it out.
> 
> That is the big difference you are overlooking.



I'm not overlooking it; the point I'm trying to make is that even "normal" shinobi can handle a collision with large animal summons. Even before Naruto went all Kyuubi rage mode in the Forest of Death, Orochimaru's giant snake tail-whipped him through several tree branches and he survived.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Asura Path, which is strong enough to restrain Killer B like he's a little kid.



That was Nagato, who KCM Naruto explicitly stated was stronger than Pain (specifically, that all of his paths/Jutsu were).



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not really. We see Jiraiya in base being smashed through the pipes and skyscraper, and then Jiraiya exits in Sage Mode. Jiraiya lacked Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulders after all when the Boss Ram hit.



There appears to be 1-3 meters of space between that ram and Jiraiya in the last panel where he's visible before he is next seen in Sage Mode. The very next panel conceals Jiraiya within the smoke. It's unverifiable.



> It is honestly a standard in fiction. Lightning vs Lightning always cancels itself out. Hell from the series that Naruto took the most out of for its Elemental Rashomon, Pokemon, its the same way. Lightning just is ineffective against itself.



Is this based on your understanding or on an objective and verifiable source? If it's the latter, please cite. If it's the former, stop trying to defend the indefensible.

Fiction is rife with examples of energy attacks colliding with each other and cancelling each other out- it's pretty much a trope, if not a cliche. Again, I'll cite Rasengan vs. Chidori as an example.



> From the panel, its quite clear the electricity shorted each other out.



A short circuit occurs when a circuit is broken by the opening of a less resistant path for the electrical current to pass through. Two guided electrical currents ramming into each other generates resistance, which is the exact opposite of a short circuit. 



> Hell how does Sasuke counter the next Raiton flow? Charging another chidori and sending it through the Kubikiribocho to short out Bee's flow.



Sasuke can only use two elements: Katon and Raiton. Of those, only Raiton is designed for precision-cutting and only Raiton would be appropriate for him to use in that situation. The only alternative would have been to simply allow B to cut through the beheader and kill him. Naturally, Sasuke's response was to use Raiton to stop B's Raiton, since that's the only way that was available to him.



> Sasuke's Raiton bounced off A's Shroud, as shown before Raiton vs Raiton cancels one another out.



The same phenomenon can be observed if you take a stick and hit a brick wall. Notice how it was a different story when Sasuke concentrated a Chidori into A's Raiton armor instead. There was no "short"; it pierced through and did damage.



> Naruto's SM _clone_ survived the stomp from a creature which can pull out of the gravitational pull and millions of tons of rock through sheer physical strength.



Yeah, and as I pointed out, the Kyuubi didn't try digging through his body like that; it swatted him once. In addition, you're judging the Kyuubi's strength based on the volume of debris it can displace without taking into consideration its size relative to Naruto's; his body is too small for the Kyuubi to impart 100% of the force it generates with its attacks. You are acting as though Sage Naruto's body can take more punishment than Chibaku Tensei, which is just downright false.



> Its comparable to me stomping on a ant and the ant survives.



Wouldn't that just be a regular ant? 



> Given Kurama's power it shouldn't be impossible,





Shroud

Shroud

Shroud

Are you seriously going to try to defend the idea that part 1 Naruto with less than a full tail's chakra from the Kyuubi has durability even in the same ballpark as the Bijuu-level Raikage?



> and he never took it head on like Jiraiya did.



The point I'm trying to make is that it's not exactly uncommon for shinobi to take hits from large animals and walk away from it. Not that the feat isn't impressive, but it doesn't put Jiraiya so far above the rest of the crowd that...say...Kakashi or Itachi with a kunai couldn't slit open his throat if they got the chance.



> And said snake is smaller than the Boss Summons, even crushed underfoot by Gamabunta!



Gamabunta's fat ass landed right on top of it, but that snake was definitely almost as big; it was longer than Bunta is tall. You're splitting hairs.



> Not really. Its been crushed under foot by the boss summons.



So has the full Kyuubi. That's what happens when a summon is summoned on top of a summon. Cue Xzibit meme.



> How do you know he's faster than his dad? We've never seen the Sandaime Raikage's full speed.



What led you to that conclusion?


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## Nikushimi (Oct 13, 2013)

> Hell the manga made it clear they have comparable speeds.



It doesn't say they were comparable; it just says they're both fast, which wasn't ever in question.



> And the manga made it _clear_ the Sandaime Raikage was the only Kage (minus Hashirama of course) that can go toe to toe with a Tailed Beast.



When did the manga make this "clear"?

What about the Kazekage, who was able to stop Shukaku:

was the only Kage (minus Hashirama of course) that can go toe to toe with a Tailed Beast.

Or Minato, who sealed the Kyuubi:

was the only Kage (minus Hashirama of course) that can go toe to toe with a Tailed Beast.

Other shinobi have fought Bijuu, as well (with varying success): Kakuzu and Hidan, Kakashi and Gai, Sasuke and Team Taka...

We KNOW the Raikage possess sufficient power to damage the Hachibi. We also KNOW that he is much faster than the Hachibi. On top of both of those things, we also KNOW he's more durable than the Hachibi (if we go by their proven resistance to similar attacks, like Sasuke's Raiton). The only thing the 4th can't trump is Bijuudama, which he has a very good shot at avoiding or preventing with his speed and aggressive melee capabilities.



> Hell even the manga showed A standing back and helping with the restraints behind his dad, which Gyuki casually resisted and broke out of and only attacking after Motoi's dad got impaled. Not much of a fight compared to what his dad was supposed to do.



A wasn't the Raikage at that point yet and his physical build was much smaller back then; even if you assume that he had already reached his peak in spite of those considerations, the fact that he got stuck playing support doesn't prove anything. All the 3rd did (as far as we saw) was bring out the Amber Purifying Pot and seal the Hachibi; it's not like A was particularly challenged in his support role, either.

Beside all that, this still proves A is strong enough to damage the Hachibi, and it's not like he wouldn't be fast enough to land a hit without those restraints on it.



> Giant bears who aren't summons thus are weaker than summons.



Where are you getting that summons are stronger just because they're summons? Do shinobi who sign summoning contracts suddenly become stronger than regular shinobi just because they can be summoned? No, that's bull.



> And no, you're again exaggerating A's power.



It's not an exaggeration:

Link removed

Link removed

Link removed

A can withstand Sasuke's Raiton attacks. The Hachibi can't. If you want a direct comparison, look at A chopping off the Hachibi's horn with his bare hand; your "Raiton cancels Raiton" theory still doesn't explain _that_ one.



> I've cited several times that Raiton vs Raiton usually equals a short out of both. The Raiton no Yoroi vs Chidori clash caused a massive electrical discharge with both techs shorting out.



You have repeatedly failed to cite a source for that argument; you are basing your reasoning on the observed outcome, which does not necessitate that explanation because there are other possible explanations (such as attacks of the same strength generally negating each other, typing aside). *You're making a circular argument* by claiming that Raiton negates Raiton because Sasuke's attack cancelled out the Raikage's or B's and then claiming that these things happened because Raiton negates Raiton. You haven't actually provided any evidence for that yet; you just keep bringing up examples that you think demonstrate the rule in practice without ever showing the rule to be in fact true.



> A chopped off a horn when Gyuki was distracted



Again, so what? Would A not be able to do that kind of damage to the Hachibi if it weren't distracted? The Hachibi isn't going to be any more durable just because it isn't tied down.



> and Sasuke had gravity's help when the tentacle FELL on his blade.



...Are you seriously making this argument?

If there was that much resistance, how the hell come Sasuke's arm didn't break?

He cut through the tentacle with Raiton. Just let it go already and stop trying to make excuses; the Raikage did the same thing with his hand, and the piece he severed was actually skeletal. Their Raiton can cut the Hachibi; it can't cut the Raikage.



> Gyuki is half octopi, octopi's tentacles are MADE to come off when there's danger.



That's not what happened here- Sasuke made a clean slice through the tissue.



> Its a defense mechanism. Octopi, which Gyuki is half of, always have their tentacles be easily severed if there's danger. Sacrifice one tentacle or two tentacles, get away and grow them back at a later date.



I'm not really an expert on marine life, but if it's anything like a gecko's tail, it's probably meant to be pulled apart easily. That doesn't matter when you're talking about taking a knife and chopping it off.



> Its basic biology? Gyuki got gored by Kokuo who could send him flying half a kilometer without losing his arm. Hell even his own Bijudama didn't vaporize his arms.



That says something about the Raikage's karate chop. That's why the idea that Naruto is going to tank it in Sage Mode is just insane. He was in danger of being killed by the Raikage in KCM, which actually has a dense chakra cloak like V2.



> Yet you want me to believe A can casually cut off the limbs _Gyuki can't afford to lose_,



A has not demonstrated the ability to do that. Even the 3rd wasn't able to do that. But they both can definitely inflict damage on the Hachibi and carve off large chunks of its flesh with each of their attacks.



> or even his fingers?



A cut off its horn, so yeah, a finger or two should be a cakewalk.



> You are mistaking defensive mechanisms like easily severed tentacles or a horn that would grow back at a later date for a bodypart Gyuki can't afford to lose.



And you are assuming these parts are less durable than the rest of the Hachibi simply because they are expendable, even though full-body exposure to its own Bijuudama proved otherwise.



> For one, A only did it when Gyuki was distracted.



Why does that matter?



> For two, Gyuki, being based on a bull can REGROW said horn.



The horn on a bull is still a part of its skeletal structure, its primary natural weapon, and harder than any other visible part of its body. The fact that it can regrow has no bearing on its hardness.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Note: No one doubts that Sage Mode Jiraiya is weaker than Minato. What is being argued, is that with Minato's rather limited (but effective against other opponents) arsenal would even _damage_ Jiraiya while he is in Sage Mode considering all the punishment he can take without damage.



Minato would very easily be able to damage Jiraiya in Sage Mode; a few hits with Rasengan or a kunai to a vital spot is all it takes.


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## Senjuclan (Oct 13, 2013)

Elite Uchiha said:


> Frog Song and other frog jutsu would come in handy here. Having two other senjutsu users on his side turns the tide in his favor even more. So this still doesnt answer why Naruto does not summon them.
> 
> Scan please? All I remember is that only a few people could use SM because it requires a large chakra pool. Not to mention Minato knows about Jiraiya's HM meaning he knows about Shima and Fukasaku.
> 
> You don't get it. Once you have signed the toad contract you can summon all toads.



1. Naruto does not know about frog song. Even Jiraiya did not know about it
2. Read the data book profile of the sages, it says that few people in history have been able to summon them
3. Signing the toad contract does not mean you can summon all toads. You need to have the chakra for it. It took the combined effort of Naruto, Pa and AMA to summon the toad army to Konoha. The databook clearly says few people could summon the sages, that could only apply to those who have signed the contract


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## Rocky (Oct 13, 2013)

Senjuclan said:


> 3. Signing the toad contract does not mean you can summon all toads. You need to have the chakra for it. It took the combined effort of Naruto, Pa and AMA to summon the toad army to Konoha. The databook clearly says few people could summon the sages, that could only apply to those who have signed the contract




Actually, Kishimoto directly said in an interview that having the toad contract means you can summon any toad.


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## Ghost (Oct 14, 2013)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He lacks Fukasaku and Shima on his shoulderswhen the ram hit him at full force, thus he wasn't in Sage Mode Saikyou.



Uhm no. Jiraiya lacked the frogs on his shoulders when the Ram was a few meters in front of him. You have to be biased as hell if you deny the scene was meant to be dramatic "oh no the ram got a clear hit on jiraiya".its obvious as fuck that Jiraiya entered SM right before he got hit and immediately smacked the ram back.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Oct 14, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Uhm no. Jiraiya lacked the frogs on his shoulders when the Ram was a few meters in front of him. You have to be biased as hell if you deny the scene was meant to be dramatic "oh no the ram got a clear hit on jiraiya".its obvious as fuck that Jiraiya entered SM right before he got hit and immediately smacked the ram back.


We see a clear shot of Jiraiya without the toads on his shoulders, saikyou. That means he had yet entered Sage Mode. The ram hit him before he entered it and carved out a massive trench with just that movement.


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## Laozy (Oct 14, 2013)

Minato's summons are useless from point one:

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wodkc9oDq8Y[/YOUTUBE]


Which makes this fight Jiraiya + toads vs. Minato.

Minato's Rasengan is obviously weaker than Jiraiya's. Jiraiya has had more time to master it, along with several different variants of the jutsu.

Minato obviously takes this speed-wise, but Jiraiya will be stronger and will have better reactions and CQC skill (SM).


Either way, extreme diff on both sides.


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