# Korra vs Part 1 Naruto



## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

As of , Korra now has hypersonic  reactions.   Can she bring down Naruto when he's channeling one tail of Kurama's power at the Valley of the End?

Edit: Summoning restricted for Naruto.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

Naruto and her should be around the same level, but he has clones which can beat her and chakra arms and shit that extend his range casually. Also Gamabunta.


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## Red Angel (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan trying to get revenge against Nardo for bodying his favorite verse like everything else does

By trying to nerf Nardo massively

Pay him no heed


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Naruto and her should be around the same level, but he has clones which can beat her and chakra arms and shit that extend his range casually. Also Gamabunta.



Naruto never used clones in his one-tailed form, and Korra can match the chakra arms with water whips.  As for Gamabunta...I'll just restrict that for this match, should have done so in the first place.  He never came up in the fight in the Valley of the End, anyways.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> Naruto never used clones in his one-tailed form, and Korra can match the chakra arms with water whips.  As for Gamabunta...I'll just restrict that for this match, should have done so in the first place.  He never came up in the fight in the Valley of the End, anyways.



So he has no clones, no summoning, and can only use natural stuff like his chakra and Rasengan while Korra can do w/e she wants? Doesn't seem fair to me. I don't see the whips helping as much as you'd think though, the chakra arms move at least as fast as Sasuke was moving and only Korra's reactions are on that level, while she has to make at least some sort of bending movement to use them. Naruto also has his roars which can reflect Sasuke's boulder melting Grand Fireball which is on the level of or above most of her arsenal of bending tricks.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 27, 2014)

So fire's probably not of much use.



Sasuke tanked the thing that made that hole as far as physical strikes are concerned.


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## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 27, 2014)

also regened from being stabbed in the chest and withstood this explosion:


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> So he has no clones, no summoning, and can only use natural stuff like his chakra and Rasengan while Korra can do w/e she wants? Doesn't seem fair to me. I don't see the whips helping as much as you'd think though, the chakra arms move at least as fast as Sasuke was moving and only Korra's reactions are on that level, while she has to make at least some sort of bending movement to use them. Naruto also has his roars which can reflect Sasuke's boulder melting Grand Fireball which is on the level of or above most of her arsenal of bending tricks.



"No clones" isn't a restriction that I'm putting on him, it's more just an effect of being in 1 tailed form.  Naruto simply can't use shadow clones when he's like that, Kurama's chakra prevents that IIRC.

Korra's reaction speed means she can fight at that speed.  She wouldn't be able to land hits on her own enemies otherwise.

When did Sasuke melt a boulder with katons?



Nightbringer said:


> So fire's probably not of much use.
> 
> 
> 
> Sasuke tanked the thing that made that hole as far as physical strikes are concerned.



Tanking _one_ katon from Sasuke means that Naruto could probably take one solid hit from Korra's firebending, but just saying that fire's not much use because of that is a no-limits fallacy.


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## LoveLessNHK (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> "No clones" isn't a restriction that I'm putting on him, it's more just an effect of being in 1 tailed form.  Naruto simply can't use shadow clones when he's like that, Kurama's chakra prevents that IIRC.
> 
> Korra's reaction speed means she can fight at that speed.  She wouldn't be able to land hits on her own enemies otherwise.
> 
> When did Sasuke melt a boulder with katons?



I think it was more of a he just didn't do it because the battle was coming to an end and Kishi needed Sasuke to be able to escape, which would have been kind of hard to believe if chakra cloak Naruto had made a ton of clones.

He was able to do the Rasengan. I recall that having control over chakra was one thing that Naruto needed to be able to achieve in order to do that, and that the fox's chakra made it harder, but not impossible. I feel like if he could control his chakra in the fox's cloak enough to make a Rasengan, he should have been able to make clones as well.

But, I could be mistaken.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Not much use =/= no use

So not NFL there


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> Not much use =/= no use
> 
> So not NFL there



It's a rather unquantified statement, either way.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Not really. She's implying fire won't deal significant damage to Naruto due to the chakra protecting him and any damage could be regenerated. Her implying that can be inferred from what she gave as an example.

She can use fire if she wants but the usage would be purely utility based (smoke screens, distractions, etc)


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> Not really. She's implying fire won't deal significant damage to Naruto due to the chakra protecting him and any damage could be regenerated. Her implying that can be inferred from what she gave as an example.
> 
> She can use fire if she wants but the usage would be purely utility based (smoke screens, distractions, etc)



That goes right back into NLF territory though.  Naruto withstood _one_ katon from Sasuke, therefore no amount of firebending from Korra will deal significant damage to him?  What about 10 hits, or 20?  Naruto's healing factor is a separate discussion; he regenerated from a stab wound, not burns.  The healing factor itself seems to have limits; either Naruto ran out of chakra or the healing factor simply wasn't enough to bring him back to consciousness at the end of the fight.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Jul 27, 2014)

^Must have edited my reply in my head because I don't see my edits there fml

Let's get this fire thing over then so you guys can continue with your debate:

1. How much DC does Korra have with her firebending?
2. How much DC does part 1 Sasuke have with his Katon?


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## Adamant soul (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> That goes right back into NLF territory though.  Naruto withstood _one_ katon from Sasuke, therefore no amount of firebending from Korra will deal significant damage to him?  What about 10 hits, or 20?  Naruto's healing factor is a separate discussion; he regenerated from a stab wound, not burns.  *The healing factor itself seems to have limits; either Naruto ran out of chakra or the healing factor simply wasn't enough to bring him back to consciousness at the end of the fight*.



Or it was an inconsistency brought on by PIS since the plot required Sasuke win. He took a similar stab in a weaker form earlier in the fight and essentially brushed it off. By the way, the chakra cloak itself produces a lot of heat (notice the steam rising from the water as a mere effect of 1 tail Naruto standing on it), his regeneration should thus easily handle any burns he does get, which wont be much since he tanked Sasuke's katon.


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## Hyperion1O1 (Jul 27, 2014)

Follow up question:

How much time does Korra needs to bend fire for offense
How much time does Sasuke needs to use Katons


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> Follow up question:
> 
> How much time does Korra needs to bend fire for offense
> How much time does Sasuke needs to use Katons



I'd say a second or so, give or take for the jutsu since his fire jutsu use very few seals and can be used while moving. Korra can actually punch and kick and cause much fire balls to appear which is much simpler than hand seals, but those aren't comparable to Sasuke's katons and Naruto can easily tank/roar them back.


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Hyperion1O1 said:


> ^Must have edited my reply in my head because I don't see my edits there fml
> 
> Let's get this fire thing over then so you guys can continue with your debate:
> 
> ...



Sure, here are some examples:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Korra using firebending to shatter a large ice wall Unalaq made:


*Spoiler*: __


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## Foxve (Jul 27, 2014)

Not really seeing korra beating one-tailed naruto. Her best bet is to use earthbending to trap him, then dropping a bigass rock on him since water most likly won't do it and fire will do jack of all shit to a tailed form. Lol airbending


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## AgentAAA (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> That goes right back into NLF territory though.  Naruto withstood _one_ katon from Sasuke, therefore no amount of firebending from Korra will deal significant damage to him?  What about 10 hits, or 20?  Naruto's healing factor is a separate discussion; he regenerated from a stab wound, not burns.  The healing factor itself seems to have limits; either Naruto ran out of chakra or the healing factor simply wasn't enough to bring him back to consciousness at the end of the fight.



Big issue is the fact that by the end of the fight the "form" was at it's limit, to the point he was out a hand due to the fact his body just couldn't handle that much chakra at the time, and that the fox chakra was eating him away incredibly similarly to how sasuke's cursed seal was eating away at him - a parallel that screwed him in the end.
As a result, half the problem there likely has a lot to do with just Naruto's body overstraining itself due to time in the form with such a young body.


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## Ghazan (Jul 27, 2014)

Make it Giant Spirit Korra


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 27, 2014)

Current Naruto shows up and Talks no Jutsu Korra into oblivion . Talk no Jutsu is just too strong .


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## Fujita (Jul 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> only Korra's reactions are on that level, while she has to make at least some sort of bending movement to use them.



Look at the feat again 



You'll notice that she not only had to react, she also had to create an air sphere in the extremely short time before the explosion hit 

Bit silly to say that her bending isn't that fast


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 27, 2014)

Hey Avatar the Legend of Korra fans: Do you have a good site that has the episodes of Avatar the Legend of Korra ? It seams REALLY, REALLY cool, I loved Aang's legend and I heard people saying a lot good about it a LOT . 

So, could you name the site where you watch(If you watch at a site), please ?


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## Ghazan (Jul 27, 2014)

Mr. Black Leg said:


> Hey Avatar the Legend of Korra fans: Do you have a good site that has the episodes of Avatar the Legend of Korra ? It seams REALLY, REALLY cool, I loved Aang's legend and I heard people saying a lot good about it a LOT .
> 
> So, could you name the site where you watch(If you watch at a site), please ?




Pretty good site for specifically the avatar series.

This site has alot more than korra,animated movies, anime, and cartoons.

The first site doesn't crash as much but the second one updates with the new episodes faster.


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

There's also the only _legal_ way of viewing episodes, and the only way that registers in Nickelodeon's view counts and actually supports the show, which is watching on Nick.com.  They post all the recent episodes there in HD.  They don't have all the episodes from Books 1 and 2, up, though, so you would have to find them on other sites.


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## Atlantic Storm (Jul 27, 2014)

Ghazan said:


> Make it Giant Spirit Korra



Giant Spirit Korra would kill Naruto just by sitting on him or, I don't know, kick an ocean into his face.


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 27, 2014)

Where does the Avatarverse(Both Korra and Aang) stand on in their god tiers maximum ?


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Island level DC at the very highest.


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## King Kakarot (Jul 27, 2014)

Korra is around mach 23 ish right?


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Korra is around mach 23 ish right?



The explosion feat puts her at Mach 5 minimum if the explosive was a gas, Mach 10 if it was a solid.  Mach 23 is the upper limit going by the maximum propagation speed of a solid explosive.


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## Foxve (Jul 27, 2014)

Are the 2nd and 3rd seasons better than the first? I honestly stopped watching after the 1 season cause of how disappointing the ending was as well korra's lack of maturity throughout it. Mako's manhoring didn't help ether. 

As to the match, I'd say naruto takes it 7-8\10.


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Foxve said:


> Are the 2nd and 3rd seasons better than the first? I honestly stopped watching after the 1 season cause of how disappointing the ending was as well korra's lack of maturity throughout it. Mako's manhoring didn't help ether.



I liked season 2, Korra was still somewhat annoying at the beginning but midway through she grew up, so to speak.  Season 3 has been awesome so far and Korra herself is really likable now, IMO.



> As to the match, I'd say naruto takes it 7-8\10.



Can you elaborate why?


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 27, 2014)

What's Kora's current durability? 

Naruto with the kyubi cloak has some pretty good durability. 

Pretty sure a single punch from kn1 naruto take her out.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> I liked season 2, Korra was still somewhat annoying at the beginning but midway through she grew up, so to speak.  Season 3 has been awesome so far and Korra herself is really likable now, IMO.



Must be why Nick took it off air 

They don't even make good shows anymore, why would they cancel their only one?


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Must be why Nick took it off air
> 
> They don't even make good shows anymore, why would they cancel their only one?



Korra isn't cancelled, it's been moved to online distribution.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> Korra isn't cancelled, it's been moved to online distribution.



When did I say it was cancelled?


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> When did I say it was cancelled?



"Why would they cancel their only one" sounded like you were talking as if it was cancelled.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 27, 2014)

Unless Korra has some durability feats I don't know about, going to give Naruto the advantage in this one, though it'd be close. Korra has more variety, but Naruto's capable of taking a few hits from the looks of it, while it takes about one for Naruto to end this.


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> What's Kora's current durability?
> 
> Naruto with the kyubi cloak has some pretty good durability.
> 
> Pretty sure a single punch from kn1 naruto take her out.



Well, she can take being thrown into the ground and creating this crater:



And she can use her firebending to deflect hits with the force of Vaatu's arms:



Which can do stuff like this:


*Spoiler*: __


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## AlligatorBalls (Jul 27, 2014)

So what's Korra's beast Destructive feat? Compared to Part 1 Naruto, whose rasengans were breaking trees and making large holes on metallic like barrels filled with tons of water, I actually think she might have a good chance of beating him here. 

But anyways, is kyuubi nartuto involved in this fight? I really don't see what sort of damage she could inflict upon Naruto's kyuubi chakra shroud looking at how he is immune to fire when he is protected by the Kyuubi's shroud. The amount of fire sasuke released looked more than what Korra had ever released with her fire bending, well, as far as I am concerned anyways.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 27, 2014)

Okay...
I kinda need korra stats but:
Cloaked nardo is cb+-mcb(likely higher with part 2 scalling) and has mach 14
Korra is a glass cannon with mach 15 and likely city blockish dc by the images you posted.


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## King Kakarot (Jul 27, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Okay...
> I kinda need korra stats but:
> Cloaked nardo is cb+-mcb(likely higher with part 2 scalling) and has mach 14
> Korra is a glass cannon with mach 15 and likely city blockish dc by the images you posted.


Korra is mach 23 high end


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 27, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Korra is mach 23 high end



If we used high end then Naruto top tiers would be mach 700


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## Iwandesu (Jul 27, 2014)

King Kakarot said:


> Korra is mach 23 high end


Bro...
We rarely even use the mid end.
High ends are pointless 99% of the time.


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## King Kakarot (Jul 27, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Bro...
> We rarely even use the mid end.
> High ends are pointless 99% of the time.


Didn't know that


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 27, 2014)

Using high ends ? Let's roll with some 3 teraton Fujitora


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## Foxve (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> I liked season 2, Korra was still somewhat annoying at the beginning but midway through she grew up, so to speak.  Season 3 has been awesome so far and Korra herself is really likable now, IMO.



Good to know. I'll give season 2 a try then...




> Can you elaborate why?



As most posters have already said, korra will need multiple attacks (none of which should be fire) to put naruto down. Where as he only needs one. He can casually stretch his chakra arms and spit out shockwaves that'll, more or less, bust through almost anything she throws at him. She's fucked if she gets grabbed by one....



King Kakarot said:


> Korra is mach 23 high end



Can she physically move that fast?


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

Foxve said:


> As most posters have already said, korra will need multiple attacks (none of which should be fire) to put naruto down. Where as he only needs one. He can casually stretch his chakra arms and spit out shockwaves that'll, more or less, bust through almost anything she throws at him. She's fucked if she gets grabbed by one....



Physically Korra _can_ take a hit, and as I showed on the last page that Korra can deflect strikes from Vaatu's arms, so she deflect strikes from Naruto's chakra arms.

And shockwaves?





> Can she physically move that fast?



As per the feat I linked to in the OP, she saw an explosion coming at her from no more than a few meters away, and managed to kneel, extend her arms on each side of her, and create an airshield to protect her and her friends.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> Physically Korra _can_ take a hit, and as I showed on the last page that Korra can deflect strikes from Vaatu's arms, so she deflect strikes from Naruto's chakra arms.
> And shockwaves?
> 
> .


Did this shockwave actually destroy anything?
Size is not relevant unless really massive.
 Nardo kyuubi punches can kill average superhuman, unless vattu's has feats to back him off, tanking a punch from him is episode 2 nardo (gag feats on) business.


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Did this shockwave actually destroy anything?



Did Naruto's?



> Size is not relevant unless really massive Nardo kyuubi punches can kill average superhuman, unless vattu's has feats to back him off, tanking a punch from him is episode 2 nardo (gag feats on) business.


Kindly read the last post on the previous page. And since when did Part 1 Naruto's kyuubi punches kill anyone?


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## Iwandesu (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> Did Naruto's?
> Kindly read the last post on the previous page. And since when did Part 1 Naruto's kyuubi punches kill anyone?


I'm not comparing the 2 shockwaves yet but i do think so.
I did, it is episode 2 nardo, sakura bfr'ing punch worthy.
He... doesn't need to.
Cloaked nardo is stronger than base chouji which has enough power to wipe out an attack which would either kill or severely wound the remaining members of Sauce rescue team (by feats, calc and portrayal)


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## Wan (Jul 27, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> I did, it is episode 2 nardo, sakura bfr'ing punch worthy.
> He... doesn't need to.
> Cloaked nardo is stronger than base chouji which has enough power to wipe out an attack which would either kill or severely wound the remaining members of Sauce rescue team (by feats, calc and portrayal)



Chouji?  Seriously?  I'll need to see some scans.


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## Foxve (Jul 27, 2014)

Wan said:


> Physically Korra _can_ take a hit, and as I showed on the last page that Korra can deflect strikes from Vaatu's arms, so she deflect strikes from Naruto's chakra arms.
> 
> And shockwaves?



He can do more than just strike. He could literally rip her apart with them. He's also got claws. How did she deflect this vato guy's arms? It wasn't with water was it? 

I can't really comment on the shockwave thing. What happening there? Was it casual and if not how long did it take to charge?



> As per the feat I linked to in the OP, she saw an explosion coming at her from no more than a few meters away, and managed to kneel, extend her arms on each side of her, and create an airshield to protect her and her friends.



But can she actually run around that fast? He can just wail on her with speedy attacks till something gives. With Naruto's strength, close combat is suicidal for Korra since despite her bending strength she still has a human body. I can actually see naruto punching a hole through her chest....


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 27, 2014)

Just reread all of the VOTE fight. 

Best  feats are: 

Naruto tanking sasukes katon Justu. 

Naruto has dozens of meters in range with kyubi chakra hands. 

His chakra hands can move independantly, it's interesting because it's works similar to frog fu. Even if you dodge Naruto's punch, a chakra hand extends attacking the opponent. 

Naruto punches Sasuke so hard that he creates a fairly large cavern in the stone monument. 



The rubble that Sasuke is standing in, was caused by a single punch from naruto.


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## Plague (Jul 27, 2014)

I think Korra's Earth Bending will be the real trouble. 

If Naruto can get close enough to land a hit, he wins.

EDIT: You also gotta remember Naruto has ninja tactics too. He could Henge into a rock during a large attack and wait for Korra to let her guard down.


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## Ghazan (Jul 27, 2014)

Is comparing Sasuke's Flames and Korra's Flames reasonable?
Because Korra's fire burned through (presumably) steel


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## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 27, 2014)

Ghazan said:


> Is comparing Sasuke's Flames and Korra's Flames reasonable?
> Because Korra's fire burned through (presumably) steel



I'd bet on iron, but steel is iron plus carbon .


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## Blitzomaru (Jul 27, 2014)

But can anyone name a single time someone was mortally wounded by the basic fire attacks? Almost every fire attack in the show if it hits someone it just knocks them back. no burns, no melting flesh.

Naruto could simply overwhelm Korra with clones like he did against Gaara.2000 clones with 1000 Rasengans. Kyuubi might not even be needed.


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## Ghazan (Jul 27, 2014)

Blitzomaru said:


> But can anyone name a single time someone was mortally wounded by the basic fire attacks? Almost every fire attack in the show if it hits someone it just knocks them back. no burns, no melting flesh.
> 
> Naruto could simply overwhelm Korra with clones like he did against Gaara.2000 clones with 1000 Rasengans. Kyuubi might not even be needed.



It's a nick show. They won't be able to show burns or gore. If they do they'd have to it subtle so kids wouldn't realize it. (I.e Amon suicide scene)
Furthermore It can be safely assumed she holds back most of the time (killing isn't really in character for her anyway but both bloodlust in this case) Being trained by the white lotus for most of her life;a group that's relatively peaceful.

Name a time PTS naruto used clones during one tail kyubi cloak


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## Fujita (Jul 28, 2014)

Are we honestly using the "but why doesn't it kill the fuck out of everybody" argument 

It's not like Avatarverse fire is just genuinely that weak, it's that it puts a damper on the show's tone when everybody comes away from fights with massive burn scars. Or shattered limbs from earthbending. Or severed limbs when somebody uses a water saw that can cut through metal.


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## Foxve (Jul 28, 2014)

Wan said:


> I posted the screenshots on the last page.  She actually deflected them with firebending.  Naruto can't rip her apart if Korra deflects the arms and prevents them from ever grabbing her.



Naruto's chakra's arms don't exactly feel pain when stretched so whipping them won't stop them from coming at her (especially if its fire). I should also point out that his chakra arms can move just as fast as he can (if not faster).



> She's making a large air wave a a group of spirits charging toward her.  She used the Avatar State for it, but it didn't take any particular time to charge.



Did it hurt/destroy them? Or just blow them back? Naruto shockwaves have a more "impact" to them as opposed to simply blowing things back. Not to mention they're much more casual. Naruto can just throw one at a opponent and is still fast enough to hit them before the effects of it are over.



> She can move that fast and pull off bending moves that fast, yes.  She doesn't need to "run", she just has to dodge.



Considering how big his shockwaves and chakra arms can grow and stretch as well as the speed they can be thrown at kinda makes "dodging" almost moot.....



> there's a chance that Korra could use her spiritual purification technique that she destroyed Unalaq with to purify the kyuubi's chakra from Naruto.



I honestly can't see her doing that. Maybe suppressing it's chakra (and that's a hell of a stretch). Though I don't see her having time to do that in this kind of fight....


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## Wan (Jul 28, 2014)

Foxve said:


> Naruto's chakra's arms don't exactly feel pain when stretched so whipping them won't stop them from coming at her (especially if its fire). I should also point out that his chakra arms can move just as fast as he can (if not faster).



And Vaatu's arms did feel pain?  Deflecting them means deflecting the _force_ of the hit.



> Did it hurt/destroy them? Or just blow them back? Naruto shockwaves have a more "impact" to them as opposed to simply blowing things back. Not to mention they're much more casual. Naruto can just throw one at a opponent and is still fast enough to hit them before the effects of it are over.



They didn't come back after being blown back, presumably they dissipated.  What's an example of the shockwaves Naruto can make?



> Considering how big his shockwaves and chakra arms can grow and stretch as well as the speed they can be thrown at kinda makes "dodging" almost moot.....



Korra can defend against the shockwaves with bending.  Can you quantify the speed of the arms?  The arms spontaneously growing and stretching is pretty similar to what Vaatu's arms could do.



> I honestly can't see her doing that. Maybe suppressing it's chakra (and that's a hell of a stretch). Though I don't see her having time to do that in this kind of fight....



It's not really _suppressing_, but rather, turning negative energy into positive energy and dissipating it.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 28, 2014)

Wan said:


> I posted the screenshots on the last page.  She actually deflected them with firebending.  Naruto can't rip her apart if Korra deflects the arms and prevents them from ever grabbing her.
> 
> 
> 
> She's making a large air wave a a group of spirits charging toward her.  She used the Avatar State for it, but it didn't take any particular time to charge.


Not sure if pure boiling energy is going to be blocked by firebending.




Wan said:


> She can move that fast and pull off bending moves that fast, yes.  She doesn't need to "run", she just has to dodge.


Which is nice till she's in close-combat, at which point everything gets harder for her. it also means she can't achieve distance in the fight.



Wan said:


> That is a specific jutsu of Chouji's, right? I don't see how that can be scaled to Naruto's punches or striking things with his chakra arms.  Rasengan, maybe.




That's just entirely incorrect by portrayal. Base Jinchuuriki Naruto was considered at least high up in the Retrieval team, and KN1 naruto should honestly be past anything else - especially given how casually he'd manhandled sasuke at the time. Naruto's chakra in that form was unprecedented and given that that chouji still couldn't handle Jirobo's second seal form without help... it'd be odd if Kyuubi cloaked naruto had an actual problem. There's no reason a high-level genin's technique'd be above any level of Tailed cloak power, or even slightly close.
Keep in mind this wasn't one of Chouji's larger techniques, either - He's being fairly casual there.


Wan said:


> That's a fair point, though it's also a simple move and would be fairly easy for Korra to anticipate if she had prior knowledge.  As long as we're talking about exotic techniques, there's a chance that Korra could use her spiritual purification technique that she destroyed Unalaq with to purify the kyuubi's chakra from Naruto.



Isn't Kyuubi chakra senjutsu in the first place? at least by current understanding? Not sure if that'd be purifiable since it's not all that negative. Not to mention that to my knowledge Kyuubi's got a crapton more.



Wan said:


> Korra can defend against the shockwaves with bending.  Can you quantify the speed of the arms?  The arms spontaneously growing and stretching is pretty similar to what Vaatu's arms could do.


Probably mach 14+ - they're treated as much more of a problem for Sasuke to dodge, which does come partially from unpredictability, but overall seem much quicker to actually strike their target either way. At least mach 14 given they could hound a serious Curse seal level 1 Sasuke, though.


----------



## trance (Jul 28, 2014)

Part I Naruto? Is Korra _that_ weak?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 28, 2014)

Stαrkiller said:


> Part I Naruto? Is Korra _that_ weak?



Yep, she's slightly weaker than him while in base  (this is without summoning/clones too )


----------



## Ghazan (Jul 28, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Not sure if pure boiling energy is going to be blocked by firebending.


It blocked the Embodiment of chaos and destruction's arms. I don't see why it shouldn't


AgentAAA said:


> Which is nice till she's in close-combat, at which point everything gets harder for her. it also means she can't achieve distance in the fight.


It'll be hard for naruto to close in on her. She could simply fly, launch herself, etc.



AgentAAA said:


> Isn't Kyuubi chakra senjutsu in the first place? at least by current understanding? Not sure if that'd be purifiable since it's not all that negative. Not to mention that to my knowledge Kyuubi's got a crapton more.


I'm 50/50 on this. But if it won't work on kyubi, it has been shown to work on humans. She'd purify Naruto if anything 


AgentAAA said:


> Probably mach 14+ - they're treated as much more of a problem for Sasuke to dodge, which does come partially from unpredictability, but overall seem much quicker to actually strike their target either way. At least mach 14 given they could hound a serious Curse seal level 1 Sasuke, though.


I don't recall them being Mach 14. I only remember them being so hard to dodge because they were unpredictable and came out randomly when they were fighting.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 28, 2014)

Ghazan said:


> It blocked the Embodiment of chaos and destruction's arms. I don't see why it shouldn't
> 
> It'll be hard for naruto to close in on her. She could simply fly, launch herself, etc.
> 
> ...



1) Being the embodiment of chaos doesnot really mean much stat wise. What are its arms best dc feats? Destroying rocks? 

I believe saying sasukes katons are relatively = to Kora's is accurate.. If his katon couldnot do anything to stop naruto why would Koras?? 

2) agreed, if Kora goes airborne naruto can  only reach her with chakra arms/jumping 

3) I thought she had to stand still and do some hand motions  to purify anything- I doubt naruto would just stand by and let her. 

Regardless, purifying the kyubi chakra would benefit naruto. Since then we get base naruto vs Korra. - without the haze of the kyubi cloak, naruto would be more cognizant. I don't see Korra ovcomming mass kage bunshin. Some basic bunshin feints utilizing henge would take her out. ( bunshin turning Into shuriken + rocks etc....) 

4) I've never heard of Mach 14 chakra arms, it is probably power scaled from p2. 
However the point still stands that if Sasuke uchiha, someone who is much faster than Korra and has precognition struggled against chakra arms, what chance does Korra stand? 

Just to clear this up: 

In the manga naruto doesnot use chakra roars in VOTE, he creates shock waves with chakra arms but those seem fairly harmless.  The first time we see an impressive chakra roar is when he is in 3 tailed form against Kabuto 



Naruto can create omnidirectional chakra waves. But not in 1 tailed form. 

- if you
Continue reading the  chapter- you see that Naruto's roar destroyed the bridge and sent Kabuto flying quite a distance into the forest. ( funny ennough, Sakura gets sent  flying too )


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## AgentAAA (Jul 28, 2014)

Ghazan said:


> It blocked the Embodiment of chaos and destruction's arms. I don't see why it shouldn't
> 
> It'll be hard for naruto to close in on her. She could simply fly, launch herself, etc.
> 
> ...


-Nardo and sauce is mach 14
--Sauce had trouble reacting to them
-Only thing cause notes is that the _Sharingan_ couldn't predict them
-If they're less than mach 14, Sauce is going to have 0 issue dodging them

As for Korra launching herself and flying on the other hand, there's no proof THAT is mach 14.

Also, naruto's a fundamentally good being at the time(And not badly written yet, either) not sure if that works.


----------



## Plague (Jul 28, 2014)

How fast can Naruto throw Kunai? I saw Neji catch them, but that could just be cause Neji was a beast.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 28, 2014)

Plague said:


> How fast can Naruto throw Kunai? I saw Neji catch them, but that could just be cause Neji was a beast.


Mach 14 is from dodging reacting to gaara sand shurikens.
Anyone faster than nardo get the scaling (aka:anyone worthy a jack)
Neji is included for clear reasons


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## Kazu (Jul 28, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> Mach 14 is from dodging reacting to gaara sand shurikens.
> Anyone faster than nardo get the scaling (aka:anyone worthy a jack)
> Neji is included for clear reasons



Wasn't hypersonic sand shuriken debunked?


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 28, 2014)

Kazu said:


> Wasn't hypersonic sand shuriken debunked?


I do recall people arguing against it.(not sure how it ended)
Other than this we only have some supersonic+-low hypersonic calcs that can be applied with part 2 scalling.
Though kn1 has a really iffy possibility to get base shippuden nardo scalling (as pre cloak naruto  in Kazekage arc was able to tag deidara )
I myself am skeptical about it,though.


----------



## LoveLessNHK (Jul 28, 2014)

I'm going with Naruto here from everything I've read.

Even with her 'high end' reactions, which shouldn't be used, Naruto would eventually land a hit on her, and then it'd be over.


----------



## Wan (Jul 28, 2014)

Ok, just some disproof of the notion that a single direct hit from Naruto would be enough to end the fight.  I've already shown that Korra's bending can simply deflect hits, and that she's fast enough to contend with Naruto.

Korra took a direct, unblocked hit from Vaatu's energy blast:



And it didn't end the fight.  That really was towards the beginning of the final battle in book 2.

Examples of Vaatu's blasts:




*Spoiler*: __ 










*Spoiler*: __ 









If she can take a hit from that, and keep fighting not much worse for wear, one hit from the chakra claws or from Naruto's fists are not going to end the fight.

Anyways:



			
				AgentAAA said:
			
		

> That's just entirely incorrect by portrayal. Base Jinchuuriki Naruto was considered at least high up in the Retrieval team, and KN1 naruto should honestly be past anything else - especially given how casually he'd manhandled sasuke at the time. Naruto's chakra in that form was unprecedented and given that that chouji still couldn't handle Jirobo's second seal form without help... it'd be odd if Kyuubi cloaked naruto had an actual problem. There's no reason a high-level genin's technique'd be above any level of Tailed cloak power, or even slightly close.
> Keep in mind this wasn't one of Chouji's larger techniques, either - He's being fairly casual there.



High up for what?  His physical strength?  No, what made Naruto special was the Shadow Clone jutsu and rasengan.  The former doesn't pertain to strength (and doesn't seem to be usable when Naruto is in one-tailed mode, the chakra shroud seems to  rather than help them) and the latter is a very specific technique which takes a moment of prep, which gives Korra an additional moment to be ready to deflect it with bending (and she doesn't have to hit the rasengan itself with a bending move, she can hit Naruto's body while he's charging at her to knock him away).



> Isn't Kyuubi chakra senjutsu in the first place? at least by current understanding? Not sure if that'd be purifiable since it's not all that negative. Not to mention that to my knowledge Kyuubi's got a crapton more.



No, Naruto wouldn't have specifically switched to using Sage Mode against Jinchuriki Obito if that was the case.  Kurama in Part 1 is a very hateful being, and the way Kurama's chakra consumes Naruto and makes him animalistic is pretty much matches spiritual imbalance to Korra.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Ok, just some disproof of the notion that a single direct hit from Naruto would be enough to end the fight.  I've already shown that Korra's bending can simply deflect hits, and that she's fast enough to contend with Naruto.
> 
> Korra took a direct, unblocked hit from Vaatu's energy blast:
> 
> ...




Oh, yeah, It's not as though the very first appearance of Kyuubi naruto involved him easily and casually breaking Haku's ice mirror that was previously entirely unfazed by Gokakyuu no jutsu, or that the entire point of KN0 naruto is the gigantic strength and speed boost it gives him - a boost which is constantly pointed out and talked about in every single appearance. just KN0 allows him the amount of chakra required to summon Bunta.

We also know Bijuu cloaks passively increase those stats quite a bit simply due to later arcs, as well. He ALSO goes hand-to-hand evenly with sasuke who at that point had gotten even stronger than when he fought Gaara, where he was showing physical strength comparable to lee... see what I'm getting at? Naruto's >> Anyone else on genin teams at this point, and KN1 tier just outright shits on anything not named sasuke among the rookies.





> No, Naruto wouldn't have specifically switched to using Sage Mode against Jinchuriki Obito if that was the case.  Kurama in Part 1 is a very hateful being, and the way Kurama's chakra consumes Naruto and makes him animalistic is pretty much matches spiritual imbalance to Korra.



Kurama's character isn't really explored at all in part 1. She's fairly ambiguous. And it's merely a rage amp either way. She's more grumpy than anything else in all honesty, particularly since she still didn't mind naruto taking some of her chakra. 
Still, I'll submit it might work, but I don't believe it's a property of the energy itself. Kyuubi's also a lot more to purify than anything else Korra would have done by this point.


----------



## Ghazan (Jul 29, 2014)

Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> 1) Being the embodiment of chaos doesnot really mean much stat wise. What are its arms best dc feats? Destroying rocks?


Until I do a calc on it, it merely hit the ground causing a shockwave with rocks coming up. Not sure how to word this either..


Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> I believe saying sasukes katons are relatively = to Kora's is accurate.. If his katon couldnot do anything to stop naruto why would Koras??


Sasuke's Fire /=/ Korra's Fire
Has Sasuke's fire ever burned through Steel?


Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> 3) I thought she had to stand still and do some hand motions  to purify anything- I doubt naruto would just stand by and let her.


If Naruto were to get caught in the moment, He'd be unable to move similar to Jinora. But it's pretty unlikely she'd get a chance of attempting it.


Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Regardless, purifying the kyubi chakra would benefit naruto. Since then we get base naruto vs Korra. - without the haze of the kyubi cloak, naruto would be more cognizant. I don't see Korra ovcomming mass kage bunshin. Some basic bunshin feints utilizing henge would take her out. ( bunshin turning Into shuriken + rocks etc....)


Speculation. IIRC Spirit Purification causes one to pacified. Meaning Naruto would no longer feel the need to fight. I might be wrong however..


Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> 4) I've never heard of Mach 14 chakra arms, it is probably power scaled from p2.
> However the point still stands that if Sasuke uchiha, someone who is much faster than Korra and has precognition struggled against chakra arms, what chance does Korra stand?


Sasuke struggled because:
1. Sharingan couldn't detect it and he was basically relying on it at that point
2. Surprise Factor
3. He had his hands full blocking Nardos Punches IIRC


Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Just to clear this up:
> In the manga naruto doesnot use chakra roars in VOTE, he creates shock waves with chakra arms but those seem fairly harmless.  The first time we see an impressive chakra roar is when he is in 3 tailed form against Kabuto
> 
> 
> ...


Irrelevant. This is PTS Nardo in one tailed form.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

If we're going to start crap about Naruto's chakra arms somehow being slower than Naruto themselves, I'm going to start asking about the speed of every one of Korra's attacks, because frankly, the idea that an attack with higher distance between two people would be somehow slower than the melee strikes the character had less trouble with is the stupidest argument I've ever heard of.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Kurama's character isn't really explored at all in part 1. She's fairly ambiguous. And it's merely a rage amp either way. She's more grumpy than anything else in all honesty, particularly since she still didn't mind naruto taking some of her chakra.
> Still, I'll submit it might work, but I don't believe it's a property of the energy itself. Kyuubi's also a lot more to purify than anything else Korra would have done by this point.



Kurama is a she?


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Oh, yeah, It's not as though the very first appearance of Kyuubi naruto involved him easily and casually breaking Haku's ice mirror that was previously entirely unfazed by Gokakyuu no jutsu, or that the entire point of KN0 naruto is the gigantic strength and speed boost it gives him - a boost which is constantly pointed out and talked about in every single appearance. just KN0 allows him the amount of chakra required to summon Bunta.
> 
> We also know Bijuu cloaks passively increase those stats quite a bit simply due to later arcs, as well. He ALSO goes hand-to-hand evenly with sasuke who at that point had gotten even stronger than when he fought Gaara, where he was showing physical strength comparable to lee... see what I'm getting at? Naruto's >> Anyone else on genin teams at this point, and KN1 tier just outright shits on anything not named sasuke among the rookies.



Haku's mirrors could take hits from verrrrry early Part 1 Sasuke's katons...okay?  Korra herself would easily break out of Haku's mirrors.

KN0 provides a combination of strength, speed, skill, durability and chakra.  It's not _just_ strength, and those traits are used in combination with the techniques he knows.  It's not as simple as saying "Naruto is automatically physically stronger than all the rest of the Konoha genin and all techniques they use, no feats required".  He's a more dangerous combatant _overall_, but strength is only one part of that.



> Kurama's character isn't really explored at all in part 1. She's fairly ambiguous. And it's merely a rage amp either way. She's more grumpy than anything else in all honesty, particularly since she still didn't mind naruto taking some of her chakra.
> Still, I'll submit it might work, but I don't believe it's a property of the energy itself. Kyuubi's also a lot more to purify than anything else Korra would have done by this point.



Korra purified the combination of Unalaq and Vaatu, which was stronger than one-tailed Naruto. Korra wouldn't have to purify the entire Kyuubi, just the chakra that powers Naruto in the one-tailed form.


----------



## Foxve (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Ok, just some disproof of the notion that a single direct hit from Naruto would be enough to end the fight.  I've already shown that Korra's bending can simply deflect hits, and that she's fast enough to contend with Naruto.
> 
> Korra took a direct, unblocked hit from Vaatu's energy blast:
> 
> ...



Naruto's chakra arms can stretch just as big as those blasts and cause much more destruction. Like I said before, if he grabs her that's it. His claws can scratch through steel. She won't tank that. Hell if that's vato's actual size, naruto could actually pick his ass up with them too. Yeah his hands can grow that big. 

And no way is she blocking a kyuubi charged rasengan (if he ever felt the need to use one).


----------



## Foxve (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Haku's mirrors could take hits from verrrrry early Part 1 Sasuke's katons...okay?  Korra herself would easily break out of Haku's mirrors.



I recall haku using a ice mirror barrier of some kind to block out an explosion that fucked up a good portion of the forest they were in during the war arc. Don't really see her breaking them as easily as you say.



> Korra purified the combination of Unalaq and Vaatu, which was stronger than one-tailed Naruto. Korra wouldn't have to purify the entire Kyuubi, just the chakra that powers Naruto in the one-tailed form.



Kyuubi feeds naruto a consistent supply of chakra for any tailed state. Its just the amount he can give naruto at once tends to change. So yeah, she would have to purify all of kurama......


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## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

Foxve said:


> Naruto's chakra arms can stretch just as big as those blasts and cause much more destruction. Like I said before, if he grabs her that's it. His claws can scratch through steel. She won't tank that. Hell if that's vato's actual size, naruto could actually pick his ass up with them too. Yeah his hands can grow that big.



Can you provide scans as examples?  Because I think you're throwing in feats the anime added there.  And the place Naruto fought Sasuke in didn't have any steel or metal structures in the area, so I'm pretty sure that bit is BS.



> And no way is she blocking a kyuubi charged rasengan (if he ever felt the need to use one).



I said _deflect_, not block.  She can hit Naruto's body with a bending move to knock him aside without ever touching the rasengan.



Foxve said:


> I recall haku using a ice mirror barrier of some kind to block out an explosion that fucked up a good portion of the forest they were in during the war arc. Don't really see her breaking them as easily as you say.



Then it sounds like Haku's power increased for the war arc, because KN0 broke through the mirrors fairly easily and that sounds more powerful than KN0 Naruto or Part 1 Sasuke could manage.



> Kyuubi feeds naruto a consistent supply of chakra for any tailed state. Its just the amount he can give naruto at once tends to change. So yeah, she would have to purify all of kurama......



Evidence?  Because Naruto obviously has a limit, as he was knocked out by Sasuke and didn't just get back up and keep going.  But if it is a steady flow of chakra, alternately she could use energybending to sever the flow.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Haku's mirrors could take hits from verrrrry early Part 1 Sasuke's katons...okay?  Korra herself would easily break out of Haku's mirrors.


Sasuke's Katon's don't change throughout the entirety of part 1, and were always portrayed as very heavy, dangerous things. Haku was also a ice-user who had fought jonin before and had yet to find a technique capable of breaking them - holding back or no, the ice-mirror durability is impressive. The fact that one of Sasuke's named techniques was > Naruto's casual hits was what I'm getting at. 



> KN0 provides a combination of strength, speed, skill, durability and chakra.  It's not _just_ strength, and those traits are used in combination with the techniques he knows.  It's not as simple as saying "Naruto is automatically physically stronger than all the rest of the Konoha genin and all techniques they use, no feats required".  He's a more dangerous combatant _overall_, but strength is only one part of that.


Except every single different part of it is implied to be far more than had ever been seen from any of the genin. Whether it's a combination or not, it's like implying Roshi was stronger than End-of-part-1 dragonball's goku was really comparable to all of roshi's abilities, because "He's stronger in a variety of ways"
When the gap has now increased by TWO different steps, this is no longer in question, and the idea of KN1 doing anything but Dicing Chouji in a serious confrontation is overly optimistic at best, utter downplaying at worst. This is pretty much claiming Yamcha wouldn't be scalable to Goku.



> Korra purified the combination of Unalaq and Vaatu, which was stronger than one-tailed Naruto. Korra wouldn't have to purify the entire Kyuubi, just the chakra that powers Naruto in the one-tailed form.


Except that wouldn't really work - Kurama can keep funneling chakra into him. The limit of doing so comes more from Naruto's physical limitations as a 12 year old than it does the fact that it bothers Kurama in any way to do so - once he turns 14, despite not really having more control over the fox, Kurama's able to push it up to 8-tails vs. Pein.
Why is this relevant, you ask?
Because this is all Kurama herself's doing, meaning she has no reason not to just keep it up short of overloading her user, which - unless we're adding a form time-out, in which case Korra gets to fight the arguably scarier for her base naruto, doesn't usually get to factor into OBD fights.


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Sasuke's Katon's don't change throughout the entirety of part 1, and were always portrayed as very heavy, dangerous things. Haku was also a ice-user who had fought jonin before and had yet to find a technique capable of breaking them - holding back or no, the ice-mirror durability is impressive. The fact that one of Sasuke's named techniques was > Naruto's casual hits was what I'm getting at.



Right after the Wave arc was the Chunin exam arc, which everyone had to train for and improve their abilities.  Sasuke's personality and rivalry with Naruto means he would always be striving to improve himself; the very katons that couldn't break through the mirrors were used to good effect against KN0 Naruto early in the VotE fight.



> Except every single different part of it is implied to be far more than had ever been seen from any of the genin. Whether it's a combination or not, it's like implying Roshi was stronger than End-of-part-1 dragonball's goku was really comparable to all of roshi's abilities, because "He's stronger in a variety of ways"
> When the gap has now increased by TWO different steps, this is no longer in question, and the idea of KN1 doing anything but Dicing Chouji in a serious confrontation is overly optimistic at best, utter downplaying at worst. This is pretty much claiming Yamcha wouldn't be scalable to Goku.



I'm not seeing any good evidence for it.  Going back to the initial claim I was responding to, there's no feats to back up the claim that Naruto's individual punches can kill the "average superhuman" (a claim that makes no sense with no other context, really).



> Except that wouldn't really work - Kurama can keep funneling chakra into him. The limit of doing so comes more from Naruto's physical limitations as a 12 year old than it does the fact that it bothers Kurama in any way to do so - once he turns 14, despite not really having more control over the fox, Kurama's able to push it up to 8-tails vs. Pein.
> Why is this relevant, you ask?
> Because this is all Kurama herself's doing, meaning she has no reason not to just keep it up short of overloading her user, which - unless we're adding a form time-out, in which case Korra gets to fight the arguably scarier for her base naruto, doesn't usually get to factor into OBD fights.



Then why didn't she keep it up so that Naruto could stay conscious and beat Sasuke?


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jul 29, 2014)

It's already been said to you why Kurama couldn't keep it up during the fight against Sauce in Part I: physical limitations.

He was 12 during that battle so he couldn't handle all of the chakra Kurama sends his way.

Your reading comprehension is terrible, Wan.


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> It's already been said to you why Kurama couldn't keep it up during the fight against Sauce in Part I: physical limitations.
> 
> He was 12 during that battle so he couldn't handle all of the chakra Kurama sends his way.
> 
> Your reading comprehension is terrible, Wan.



If the limitation is on how much chakra Kurama can feed Naruto continuously, then Sasuke's chidori would not have knocked Naruto out.  It wasn't that Naruto suddenly fell down from the strain, it was Sasuke's doing.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Right after the Wave arc was the Chunin exam arc, which everyone had to train for and improve their abilities.  Sasuke's personality and rivalry with Naruto means he would always be striving to improve himself; the very katons that couldn't break through the mirrors were used to good effect against KN0 Naruto early in the VotE fight.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Sasuke's Katons didn't get "magically" stronger in part 1. C rank techniques are C rank techniques and his was still the breath version unlike Itachi's "fireball" like one which seemed stronger. Katons are just as useless against KN0 Naruto who can roar fire back at Sasuke and can't even hurt him in his one tailed state.

Naruto hit Sasuke hard enough that he broke through a pillar and in a weaker form broke Haku's mirror's which are > Sasuke's Katons

Again why do people on this thread think Kurama is a girl? It is genderless with a male personality. Additionally after healing the gaping whole in Naruto's stomach via Chidori twice and providing him a power boost a bit earlier as well as one during the fight and then going one tail, Naruto's body was at its limit. Kyuubi's chakra is provided as a constant stream as a bubbling aura around Naruto.


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Sasuke's Katons didn't get "magically" stronger in part 1. C rank techniques are C rank techniques and his was still the breath version unlike Itachi's "fireball" like one which seemed stronger. Katons are just as useless against KN0 Naruto who can roar fire back at Sasuke and can't even hurt him in his one tailed state.
> 
> Naruto hit Sasuke hard enough that he broke through a pillar and in a weaker form broke Haku's mirror's which are > Sasuke's Katons



Alright, before this line of discussion can go further, I think we need to clarify just what Sasuke's gokakyu specifically is capable of doing, even throughout part 1.



> Again why do people on this thread think Kurama is a girl? It is genderless with a male personality. Additionally after healing the gaping whole in Naruto's stomach via Chidori twice and providing him a power boost a bit earlier as well as one during the fight and then going one tail, Naruto's body was at its limit. Kyuubi's chakra is provided as a constant stream as a bubbling aura around Naruto.



Read one too many fanfics with Kurama as a tsundere, maybe?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Alright, before this line of discussion can go further, I think we need to clarify just what Sasuke's gokakyu specifically is capable of doing, even throughout part 1.
> 
> 
> 
> Read one too many fanfics with Kurama as a tsundere, maybe?



BOS Sasuke is building+ with it, he's done some other shit with it though (the most obvious one was slipped into the anime to make the fight at the VOTE fight cooler

Too much fem Kyuubi  most don't even pull that off the right way


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## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> BOS Sasuke is building+ with it, he's done some other shit with it though (the most obvious one was slipped into the anime to make the fight at the VOTE fight cooler
> 
> Too much fem Kyuubi  most don't even pull that off the right way



"BOS"?  Are we talking about Sasuke in general, or the specific gokakyu no jutsu?  What are some examples?


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> "BOS"?  Are we talking about Sasuke in general, or the specific gokakyu no jutsu?  What are some examples?



Beginning of Series. So Naruto's casual punches/chakra arms are at least scaled to that


It's probably improved somewhat by then but not by too much (Ryuka in the anime melted a boulder though)


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Beginning of Series. So Naruto's punches are at least scaled to that
> 
> 
> It's probably improved somewhat by then but not by too much (Ryuka in the anime melted a boulder though)



I've seen that calc before.  It's nonsense; it doesn't explain its methodology.  It makes a bunch of measurements plugs them into a calculator with no explanation why.


----------



## Chad (Jul 29, 2014)

It doesn't take a genius to figure out what he did in that calculation.


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## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Right after the Wave arc was the Chunin exam arc, which everyone had to train for and improve their abilities.  Sasuke's personality and rivalry with Naruto means he would always be striving to improve himself; the very katons that couldn't break through the mirrors were used to good effect against KN0 Naruto early in the VotE fight.


Except he never once was shown training/changing his Katon after that. It's showings were always very consistent. Sasuke DID do some training, but mostly regarding his hand-to-hand combat and chidori, as well as the speed technique. Unless you can give a good reason why his Fireball jutsu would have changed, doesn't matter.

Naruto's durability doesn't really have an effect on what those ice mirrors are - his DC does.





> I'm not seeing any good evidence for it.  Going back to the initial claim I was responding to, there's no feats to back up the claim that Naruto's individual punches can kill the "average superhuman" (a claim that makes no sense with no other context, really).


 It's simple math. Chakra is pretty much ki, and is treated that way in series. If one person has much more chakra to put in their hits even on a casual level, it will do more damage.  Named technique or no, Naruto in KN0 is >>> Choji's casual technique without any boosters, who is <<< KN1 naruto. His casual shit has every reason to be above the tiny amounts of chakra the other genin could output.
And the evidence needed is their DC. Naruto has a lot of that. 
Korra needs a proper durability showing



> Then why didn't she keep it up so that Naruto could stay conscious and beat Sasuke?


Because having that much chakra in him for as long as he did had already started causing damage to his body - hence his arm going numb and forcing him to make a one-handed rasengan.  KN1 boosted him a lot, but he was already to the point he was sans a limb in that last clash.




Wan said:


> I've seen that calc before.  It's nonsense; it doesn't explain its methodology.  It makes a bunch of measurements plugs them into a calculator with no explanation why.


It's such a simple thing once read through and so easy to check it really shouldn't need explanation. But do you have a reason for why it's nonsense other than "He didn't explain himself well enough" or was that the only point? Because the calc itself looks pretty solid.


----------



## NightmareCinema (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> It's such a simple thing once read through and so easy to check it really shouldn't need explanation. *But do you have a reason for why it's nonsense other than "He didn't explain himself well enough" or was that the only point? *Because the calc itself looks pretty solid.



You mean apart from lolWan not liking it thus leading to him disregarding it because of his own personal bias?

No, he does not.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

NightmareCinema said:


> You mean apart from lolWan not liking it thus leading to him disregarding it because of his own personal bias?
> 
> No, he does not.



lolWan is basically half of this thread in a nutshell


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> lolWan is basically half of this thread in a nutshell



Oh, it's not all bad. For instance, if this thread weren't made, I wouldn't have noticed your lovely gif of a man boxing a bear.
I'm sure there's other positive points too, if we look hard enough...


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Oh, it's not all bad. For instance, if this thread weren't made, I wouldn't have noticed your lovely gif of a man boxing a bear.
> I'm sure there's other positive points too, if we look hard enough...



Takamura isn't a man, he is _the_ man as corny as that sounds


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Takamura isn't a man, he is _the_ man as corny as that sounds



My apologies  I know better now.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> My apologies  I know better now.



Good, now go read/watch Ippo since you seem misinformed 

and if you already have, then do it again


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> Good, now go read/watch Ippo since you seem misinformed
> 
> and if you already have, then do it again



is it really good? To be honest, I keep telling myself "I'll go read ippo next"... and then get intimidated by the chapter numbers.
I definitely want to though, it sounds like a great manga, I like how it's apparently really good despite being this long
(Am assuming you mean Hajime no Ippo btw. If I'm terribly misinformed yet again lemme know.)


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> is it really good? To be honest, I keep telling myself "I'll go read ippo next"... and then get intimidated by the chapter numbers.
> I definitely want to though, it sounds like a great manga, I like how it's apparently really good despite being this long
> (Am assuming you mean Hajime no Ippo btw. If I'm terribly misinformed yet again lemme know.)



Yes I do mean Hajime no Ippo. And yes it's really really good and by the end of it all you'll wish there were another 1000+ chapters. It's actually my favorite series. I make a point to rewatch the anime or reread the manga at least once per year


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 29, 2014)

Wait, so does Korra not have access to the avatar state or something?


----------



## Foxve (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> Can you provide scans as examples?  Because I think you're throwing in feats the anime added there.  And the place Naruto fought Sasuke in didn't have any steel or metal structures in the area, so I'm pretty sure that bit is BS.



I was referring to when naruto scratched a big gash in sasuke's headband. I can't post pics on this phone sorry. I at least try to find the link of the pages for you though.



> I said _deflect_, not block.  She can hit Naruto's body with a bending move to knock him aside without ever touching the rasengan.



You make it sound as if naruto can't just use the rasengan to plow through the attack while he's coming at her. Or use his other chakra arm to block/deflect it.....



> Then it sounds like Haku's power increased for the war arc, because KN0 broke through the mirrors fairly easily and that sounds more powerful than KN0 Naruto or Part 1 Sasuke could manage.



Haku's power never increased. The edos from the war arc were just as strong as they were when they were alive. He just never felt the need to use it in the fight against naruto and sasuke. It's like how kakashi knows 1000 jutsus, but we're never going to see them all...



> Evidence?  Because Naruto obviously has a limit, as he was knocked out by Sasuke and didn't just get back up and keep going.  But if it is a steady flow of chakra, alternately she could use energybending to sever the flow.



I believe everyone else has already explained this before I got the chance to respond. Also, when someone is knocked unconscious, feeding them chakra won't wake them back up.  And she's not energybending something with kurama's level of energy. Half or not.....


----------



## Mr. Black Leg (Jul 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Wait, so does Korra not have access to the avatar state or something?



Yes, she had when she was racing wind against Tenzin's children to get a edge . At beginning of book 2 I believe .


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 29, 2014)

So then, how exactly is she losing this? Power scailing is a thing after all.


----------



## Prog (Jul 29, 2014)

Korra lost her connection to the past Avatars at the end of Book 2.


----------



## Kazu (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> is it really good? To be honest, I keep telling myself "I'll go read ippo next"... and then get intimidated by the chapter numbers.
> I definitely want to though, it sounds like a great manga, I like how it's apparently really good despite being this long
> (Am assuming you mean Hajime no Ippo btw. If I'm terribly misinformed yet again lemme know.)



I'd recommend watching the anime first though, because the manga's art isn't very good in the beginning. Also because the anime is fucking great.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Kazu said:


> I'd recommend watching the anime first though, because the manga's art isn't very good in the beginning. Also because the anime is fucking great.



The anime does fix the problem in art by using its middling style but honestly even at the start Ippo's art is above average with the only real annoyances at the start being Miyata's dad looking like Frankenstein and the Coach's lips (which gets fixed in under 20 chapters). 

The first anime is indeed particular amazing and has solid art and has above average animation for the time, second is great, but the 3rd season is a poor adaption. Watching the first anime might be a good choice if you're up for it as it skips almost nothing.


----------



## Ghazan (Jul 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> So then, how exactly is she losing this? Power scailing is a thing after all.



Apparently she can't fly as fast as aang in this thread


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> It's simple math. Chakra is pretty much ki, and is treated that way in series. If one person has much more chakra to put in their hits even on a casual level, it will do more damage.  Named technique or no, Naruto in KN0 is >>> Choji's casual technique without any boosters, who is <<< KN1 naruto. His casual shit has every reason to be above the tiny amounts of chakra the other genin could output.
> And the evidence needed is their DC. Naruto has a lot of that.
> Korra needs a proper durability showing



So more chakra = more physical strength?  Yeah, I'll need to see a source on that.  Because there are some powerhouses of chakra in the Narutoverse who don't have any strength of note -- Gaara, for example.



> Because having that much chakra in him for as long as he did had already started causing damage to his body - hence his arm going numb and forcing him to make a one-handed rasengan.  KN1 boosted him a lot, but he was already to the point he was sans a limb in that last clash.



You know what, fair enough.



> It's such a simple thing once read through and so easy to check it really shouldn't need explanation. But do you have a reason for why it's nonsense other than "He didn't explain himself well enough" or was that the only point? Because the calc itself looks pretty solid.



I can't argue with something that's unexplained and I don't fully understand.  If it's not worth actually explaining, then it's not worth me giving it consideration.



LazyWaka said:


> Wait, so does Korra not have access to the avatar state or something?



Yes, but at the end of Book 2 she loses her connection with the past Avatars, meaning no more scaling with them (and really, the way she used it throughout Book 2 indicates that scaling with past Avatars wasn't going on in the first place).


Foxve said:


> I was referring to when naruto scratched a big gash in sasuke's headband. I can't post pics on this phone sorry. I at least try to find the link of the pages for you though.



That scratch was done by _rasengan_, not the chakra arms, and it's sort of a pathetic scratch either way.



> You make it sound as if naruto can't just use the rasengan to plow through the attack while he's coming at her. Or use his other chakra arm to block/deflect it.....



If Korra uses, say, airbending, there's nothing to "plow through".  Rasengan is a single point, not a shield; the air would flow around rasengan and still push Naruto's body.  And if Naruto exerts force towards a hit to his side when he's airborne and unrooted, he still would end pushing himself to the other side -- every action has an equal and opposite reaction.



> Haku's power never increased. The edos from the war arc were just as strong as they were when they were alive. He just never felt the need to use it in the fight against naruto and sasuke. It's like how kakashi knows 1000 jutsus, but we're never going to see them all...



He never felt the need to do it while _Naruto was punching his face in_?  Yeah, no, not buying it.


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> So more chakra = more physical strength?  Yeah, I'll need to see a source on that.  Because there are some powerhouses of chakra in the Narutoverse who don't have any strength of note -- Gaara, for example.



Don't recall Gaara being noted to have abnormally large chakra reserves (tapping ino Bijuu powers aside.)


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 29, 2014)

In any case, Vaatu on his own is a top tier, right? His attacks should be able to be scaled from pretty much anything (save stuff from avatar state characters) including Comet powered Ozai (I seem to recall a rather impressive calc from him or something.) And seeing as Korra tanked one of his energy beams, her durability would be on that level.


----------



## Iwandesu (Jul 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Don't recall Gaara being noted to have abnormally large chakra reserves (tapping ino Bijuu powers aside.)


He doesn't.
At least not part 1 gaara.
he has solid cb-mcb feats from his fight against nardo and kimimaro while using sanbi chakra,though.


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Don't recall Gaara being noted to have abnormally large chakra reserves (tapping ino Bijuu powers aside.)



He's a jinchuriki, and those naturally have large chakra reserves, right?  It's why Naruto could make so many shadow clones without it straining him like it would someone else.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> So more chakra = more physical strength?  Yeah, I'll need to see a source on that.  Because there are some powerhouses of chakra in the Narutoverse who don't have any strength of note -- Gaara, for example.


Gaara has never shown no strength - and has a lot of it in his transformation states as far as raw power. He doesn't fight up-close as a matter of form, because of his various sand abilities being much more useful in power.
Gaara's also not the hugest powerhouse of Chakra - merely being the ichibi doesn't give him near the amount of base power added onto his strength that, say, naruto gets, especially without his transformations where he then ends up being a physical powerhouse of a sand monster.
This isn't exactly a new way of thinking regarding energy, Wan. Naruto, bleach, DB all fall into the "More energy = harder hits" section, and it's been treated that way in-manga for a while.

Let me put it this way, Toriyama has outright said he meant it to be like Ki from dragon ball, and only referred to that as Chakra via an error that he then had to stick by. It's ki.






> I can't argue with something that's unexplained and I don't fully understand.  If it's not worth actually explaining, then it's not worth me giving it consideration.


How about look up how it works then? This isn't complex - this is high school level math. It's explained itself perfectly, you're just refusing to do any research. Which would be fine if you went with other's opinion on it, but seriously, if you can't understand the science behind it, then even with explanation you'd have no clue whether it was legitimate, wouldn't you?
Literally nothing there is unexplained either - he explains where he gets the values from with every calculation. Did you bother looking any of his math up, or are you just dismissing it because you didn't take the time to research into it? A calc being valid or not doesn't depend on whether it's dumbed down enough for you to be able to cry foul. It's up to you to tell us why we should throw it away when several people agree it's a valid calc.





> He never felt the need to do it while _Naruto was punching his face in_?  Yeah, no, not buying it.


Haku got punched at all? Other than with the mirrors?
Also keep in mind - it's VERY obvious that Haku was throwing the fight from the start. He specifically avoided every vital point with his senbon and dragged the fight out far longer than a ninja who had easily defeated Jonin in the past ever had. This was notable to the very end, and was outright stated in-manga.
And, sorry, but you need to give evidence the edo got magically stronger since there's 0 precedent for such occurring.


----------



## LoveLessNHK (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Gaara has never shown no strength - and has a lot of it in his transformation states as far as raw power. He doesn't fight up-close as a matter of form, because of his various sand abilities being much more useful in power.
> Gaara's also not the hugest powerhouse of Chakra - merely being the ichibi doesn't give him near the amount of base power added onto his strength that, say, naruto gets, especially without his transformations where he then ends up being a physical powerhouse of a sand monster.
> This isn't exactly a new way of thinking regarding energy, Wan. Naruto, bleach, DB all fall into the "More energy = harder hits" section, and it's been treated that way in-manga for a while.
> 
> Let me put it this way, Toriyama has outright said he meant it to be like Ki from dragon ball, and only referred to that as Chakra via an error that he then had to stick by. It's ki.



I think you mean Kishimoto


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

LoveLessNHK said:


> I think you mean Kishimoto



That I do. thank you. I was thinking about DBZ while writing that, subbed toriyama in by mistake.


----------



## Foxve (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> That scratch was done by _rasengan_, not the chakra arms, and it's sort of a pathetic scratch either way.



Really? Looked more like his claw scratched it. I'll have to look at it again...




> If Korra uses, say, airbending, there's nothing to "plow through".  Rasengan is a single point, not a shield; the air would flow around rasengan and still push Naruto's body.  And if Naruto exerts force towards a hit to his side when he's airborne and unrooted, he still would end pushing himself to the other side -- every action has an equal and opposite reaction.



I'll give the one when he's airborne. Though nothing's stopping him from just using one arm to grab on to something while the other one go's fo her. When I said he could use the rasengan to plow though her attack I really ment the water and earth ones. Should have specified my bad.





> He never felt the need to do it while _Naruto was punching his face in_?  Yeah, no, not buying it.



Someone already answered this but i'll add that haku stated (in his head) that keeping up the mirrors were draining his chakra. Something that sasuke noted was making him slower....


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> That scratch was done by _rasengan_, not the chakra arms, and it's sort of a pathetic scratch either way.



It was done by a claw. The reason Naruto lost is because he let his Rasengan fade and moved his arm in favor of carving the line.


----------



## LoveLessNHK (Jul 29, 2014)

MusubiKazesaru said:


> It was done by a claw. The reason Naruto lost is because he let his Rasengan fade and moved his arm in favor of carving the line.



Yeah, Naruto went for the metaphorical victory.

There was the thing about Sasuke not wanting to even wear the headband when they fought outside the hospital, because Naruto 'would not be able to scratch his forehead'. In the VotE fight, Sasuke finally admits Naruto is strong, but then further states that he still won't be able to scratch his forehead.

So, Naruto scratches his forehead, proving Sasuke wrong, but ultimately losing at his goal of bringing Sasuke back. 

Yay for metaphorical victories, I guess.


----------



## Punchsplosion (Jul 29, 2014)

Wan said:


> So more chakra = more physical strength?  Yeah, I'll need to see a source on that.  Because there are some powerhouses of chakra in the Narutoverse who don't have any strength of note -- Gaara, for example.



[YOUTUBE]D8BE6CaPSZk[/YOUTUBE] @ 1:10

Yeah, because his casual bitchslap that sent Temari slamming into a tree while weakened from a stab wound through the chest displays no strength whatsoever.  Or the fact, that when he channels the Shukaku chakra later on, Gaara's able to smash through said trees.  Or every other character (Kisame/Madara/etc) being able to dish out and tank blows to/from Gai.

Having more chakra ups your strength, speed, durability, and agility standard.  Additionally, there are people that can channel it into physical attributes or are just naturally more inclined towards the physical aspect of chakra.  See:  Gai, Rock Lee, Tsunade, Sakura, etc.


----------



## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 29, 2014)

Punchsplosion said:


> [YOUTUBE]D8BE6CaPSZk[/YOUTUBE] @ 1:10



That song is really nostalgic, I remember if from the first Pokemon movie


----------



## LazyWaka (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Let me put it this way, Toriyama has outright said he meant it to be like Ki from dragon ball, and only referred to that as Chakra via an error that he then had to stick by. It's ki.



He also compared it to the force from star wars.


----------



## Wan (Jul 29, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Gaara has never shown no strength - and has a lot of it in his transformation states as far as raw power. He doesn't fight up-close as a matter of form, because of his various sand abilities being much more useful in power.
> Gaara's also not the hugest powerhouse of Chakra - merely being the ichibi doesn't give him near the amount of base power added onto his strength that, say, naruto gets, especially without his transformations where he then ends up being a physical powerhouse of a sand monster.
> This isn't exactly a new way of thinking regarding energy, Wan. Naruto, bleach, DB all fall into the "More energy = harder hits" section, and it's been treated that way in-manga for a while.
> 
> Let me put it this way, Toriyama has outright said he meant it to be like Ki from dragon ball, and only referred to that as Chakra via an error that he then had to stick by. It's ki.



If Gaara had strength to match his chakra, or increased levels of chakra increased all of his physical attributes, he should have been able to retaliate physically against Rock Lee even when Rock Lee started breaking through the sand, but he didn't.  Base Naruto's high levels of chakra never seemed to directly give him particularly better strength or speed than his fellow shinobi, either.  You generally need a high level of chakra in order to reach that strength and speed, but that alone isn't enough; you need the training and techniques to make use of that chakra.

"Like ki" does not make it ki.  It makes it conceptually like ki but not functionally identical.  



> How about look up how it works then? This isn't complex - this is high school level math. It's explained itself perfectly, you're just refusing to do any research. Which would be fine if you went with other's opinion on it, but seriously, if you can't understand the science behind it, then even with explanation you'd have no clue whether it was legitimate, wouldn't you?
> Literally nothing there is unexplained either - he explains where he gets the values from with every calculation. Did you bother looking any of his math up, or are you just dismissing it because you didn't take the time to research into it? A calc being valid or not doesn't depend on whether it's dumbed down enough for you to be able to cry foul. It's up to you to tell us why we should throw it away when several people agree it's a valid calc.



The math is fine.  My problem isn't with with the math.  There is nothing to look up because _he doesn't even say what he's trying to calculate_.  There are no terms to look up aside from "pulverize", which doesn't help.  For all I know, I could completely agree with it, but I don't know because nothing about the methodology is explained.  What do _you_ think is being calced there?



> Haku got punched at all? Other than with the mirrors?
> Also keep in mind - it's VERY obvious that Haku was throwing the fight from the start. He specifically avoided every vital point with his senbon and dragged the fight out far longer than a ninja who had easily defeated Jonin in the past ever had. This was notable to the very end, and was outright stated in-manga.
> And, sorry, but you need to give evidence the edo got magically stronger since there's 0 precedent for such occurring.





And if Haku was throwing the fight from the start that's just another way of saying he wasn't using as much power as he later did in the war arc.



Foxve said:


> Really? Looked more like his claw scratched it. I'll have to look at it again...



Yeah, upon another look it seems the rasengan had inexplicably faded from his hand (though rasengan sound effects are apparently still being made).  Again, it's still sort of pathetic that the claw only left a a small scratch on the forehead protector.  That's no more notable than Korra using a small finger "blow torch" to break some metal chains that Ghazan showed a couple pages ago.

Really, going by the manga, the only things of note that Naruto did with his chakra arms were knock and throw Sasuke around a bit:


*Spoiler*: __ 













They never got huge, and they never did anything like directly smash the surroundings up or throw large objects, just a bit of damage wherever  Sasuke got knocked into.  That's no more impressive than Vaatu's showings with his arms and blasts, which Korra was able to deflect and tank.



> I'll give the one when he's airborne. Though nothing's stopping him from just using one arm to grab on to something while the other one go's fo her. When I said he could use the rasengan to plow though her attack I really ment the water and earth ones. Should have specified my bad.



It's worth noting that Korra uses the air spout technique to get a fair bit of altitude (basically the entire Korra vs Unalaq fight was spent with both of them zooming back and forth on air/water spouts), so Naruto will have to get airborne if he wants to close to melee range for punches and rasengan.  If he tries rooting himself, that already stops him from getting close to Korra.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 29, 2014)

Oh, you mean the same lee that, weighted, was incredibly above the sasuke of that point in time? And the same one that had amped all his chakra to Taijutsu? there's also the fact that Gaara was overconfident at the start and unable to follow by the end - which says more about Lee than it does Gaara.

Stats do not scale _linearly_, correct, but they definitely scale and that's shown constantly and consistently in part 2, as well.

Let's ignore the rest of the points for a second, though:


> The math is fine.  My problem isn't with with the math.  There is nothing to look up because _he doesn't even say what he's trying to calculate_.  There are no terms to look up aside from "pulverize", which doesn't help.  For all I know, I could completely agree with it, but I don't know because nothing about the methodology is explained.  What do _you_ think is being calced there?


Are. You. Serious.
You know what? I'll entertain this, with my high school level understanding of math and physics, and very clearly outline what's going on, despite the fact that, again, it's obvious to someone with just high school level understanding, and not with any sort of advanced course in either field at that.
I'll move through this quickly so I don't waste my time too much.


> During the Bell Test Sasuke uses a katon technique. (I think it was the Grand Fireball one) It leaves a small crater.


So we clearly know what's being calced. It's the crater.



> Sasuke is 1.508 m and for a person who is 1.75 m their arm is .8m long making Sasuke's arm...
> 
> (1.508/1.75) x .8 = 0.68937142857 m.


So clearly here he's finding how large sasuke's arm is in relation to the panel. Incredibly clear.



> Sasuke's arm is 12.3 pixels. The crater diameter is 175 pixels and the height is 19 pixels.


Pixel-scaling here, showing how many pixels the crater's diameter and height make up.


> (0.68937142857/12.3) x 175 = 9.8081300813 m


Here he is first dividing sasuke's earlier stated arm length by the amount of pixels it took up, then multiplying it by the amount of pixels that make up the crater's diameter. Wanna know how I know that? because he's using the same 175 number that = the amount of pixels he previously scaled the crater's diameter to.


> (0.68937142857/12.3) x 19 =
> 1.06488269454 m



Same shit done, just using the crater's height now.


> Plug that into the dome calculator and you get the volume to be 40.86 m^3.


Where he therein calculates using the dome calculator.
Despite how far I've already gone, I'm afraid I'm not willing to explain to you in minute detail how exactly he managed that, for the same reason I just feel it's beneath me to try and confirm a trigonometry calculator's assumption. If you really want to see if you can refute the calc, look up how dome measurement works, take the values he used, and do it by hand on pen and paper after looking up the formulas, or maybe using a scientific calculator, I don't judge, and then show us the evidence that that measurement is clearly wrong.
I'm going to point out the site the calculator is on makes dome HOUSES - meaning, they've got about as much practical experience regarding domes and needing precise measurements for tools and equipments as would be required for the purposes of construction and architecture.
That's generally what I consider a trusted source.



> Since there's no debris I feel it's safe to use 214.35 j/cc (pulverization).
> (40.86 x 1000000) x 214.35 =
> 8758341000 J or 2.09 tons.


Here he's saying he's using pulverization values - meaning(as shown in the next calculation) he's directly multiplying the cubic meters by the 214.45 j/cc after converting the meters to centimeters.

If you need it to be made simpler for you, I really don't know how it can be done. Most of this is math I learned in elementary school, and is written so simply I could explain it to a ten-year old. 
That said: Are you really, seriously saying that you're not going to accept any calc that might possibly be out of your realm of comprehension? Does the OBD now have to make sure to dumb down every calc to meet your standard of incompetency, just in case you feel the need to downplay it? 
LolWan to the max.




> And if Haku was throwing the fight from the start that's just another way of saying he wasn't using as much power as he later did in the war arc.


Except that shouldn't affect his defensive strength of his mirrors - he was more attempting to make them give up then try to outright destroy them, and Much of his "holding back" was possibly subconscious.
And while he was being punched, surprised by naruto's spurt of power, it's likely the reason he didn't immediately retaliate with higher level attacks is due to the fact he was getting several hard and strong punches distracting him.



ignoring the chakra arms debate, as that's just something I frankly don't feel like looking at scans for...


> It's worth noting that Korra uses the air spout technique to get a fair bit of altitude (basically the entire Korra vs Unalaq fight was spent with both of them zooming back and forth on air/water spouts), so Naruto will have to get airborne if he wants to close to melee range for punches and rasengan.  If he tries rooting himself, that already stops him from getting close to Korra.


which is fine.
Do those air/water spouts move at mach 14? And are they going to be fast enough to stop Naruto from grabbing midway up the spout?


----------



## Wan (Jul 30, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Oh, you mean the same lee that, weighted, was incredibly above the sasuke of that point in time? And the same one that had amped all his chakra to Taijutsu? there's also the fact that Gaara was overconfident at the start and unable to follow by the end - which says more about Lee than it does Gaara.
> 
> Stats do not scale _linearly_, correct, but they definitely scale and that's shown constantly and consistently in part 2, as well.



If Lee had to "amp all his chakra to Taijutsu", that's just a sign that raw chakra power =/= raw physical strength, you need to train for it or have jutsu that utilize it.  You don't get as strong and fast as Lee just with a large raw amount of chakra.  Is Lee ever stated to have a high amount of chakra, anyways?

Thank you for going into at least a little more detail on the calc.  I'm sorry for being frustrating.



> So we clearly know what's being calced. It's the crater.



"The crater"?  That's meaningless.  The crater is not an event, it's a result.  Is the calc assuming the crater was made by an explosion, or by the fire sustaining over the area for a period of time (which would make it hard to calc, since we can't know the exact amount of time it was held).  Are we assuming the damage was done by physical force, or by heat?  Well?



> So clearly here he's finding how large sasuke's arm is in relation to the panel. Incredibly clear.
> 
> Pixel-scaling here, showing how many pixels the crater's diameter and height make up.
> 
> ...



The last one I actually have a problem with upon thinking about it.  The picture does not show the crater from a flat perspective; it's skewed.  How does he come to the conclusion that the line red line he drew can be compared to Sasuke's arm as representative of the crater's depth?



> Where he therein calculates using the dome calculator.



Which is only valid if the measurements are accurate.



> Here he's saying he's using pulverization values - meaning(as shown in the next calculation) he's directly multiplying the cubic meters by the 214.45 j/cc after converting the meters to centimeters.



Where does the 214.45 j/cc number come from?  What does it assume happened?



> Except that shouldn't affect his defensive strength of his mirrors - he was more attempting to make them give up then try to outright destroy them, and Much of his "holding back" was possibly subconscious.



It would mean starting there at that fight he would be fighting more seriously if he could and wanted to, pulling stuff on the level of what he did later in the war arc.  Either he couldn't, or he didn't want to and was holding back.



> which is fine.
> Do those air/water spouts move at mach 14? And are they going to be fast enough to stop Naruto from grabbing midway up the spout?



It was airbending that Korra used block the explosion she reacted to, so evidently she can make wind move that fast.

Korra used the air spout technique to dodge the dark spirit that previously been blitzing her and all her friends in the fight starting at 17:30 , so it's supposed to be fast.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 30, 2014)

Wan said:


> If Lee had to "amp all his chakra to Taijutsu", that's just a sign that raw chakra power =/= raw physical strength, you need to train for it or have jutsu that utilize it.  You don't get as strong and fast as Lee just with a large raw amount of chakra.  Is Lee ever stated to have a high amount of chakra, anyways?


Has nothing to do with the fact he amped all his chakra, has to do with the fact that he has only trained physically - so he still has more practiced combos, some specific taijutsu abilities mastered that give him an advantage, and the gigantic buffs that are the eight gates technique. they just happened to be higher than what base gaara had for advantages, especially when he was relying on his sand shield anyways.
Honestly, half the issue here is that Gaara's chakra isn' necessarily higher than lees, and the fact that it's not a linear scaling, but...


> You don't get as strong and fast as Lee just with a large raw amount of chakra


Except he's capable of at least having his initial lotus matched in strength by naruto and sasuke, the first merely using shadow clones to bridge the gap, but the other just using his own physical strength. Moreover, if it didn't require "just chakra" than the big speed/strength amps going on in part 2 from naruto's constant power-ups wouldn't be the slightest issue. If just being the highest in physical training ='d fastest/strongest, Gai would be able to kick Madara around WITHOUT the eight gates technique, and assume ownership of nardoverse. The fact that naruto hasn't spent any significant time training his physical stats but is now constantly matching and surpassing his physical stats is proof enough. This has also been true all the way from late part 1 to part 2 - Adding chakra is always noted to increase Naruto's strength and speed, and KN1 is above it both by it's current showings and by what is shown of Bijuu cloaks later.



> Thank you for going into at least a little more detail on the calc.  I'm sorry for being frustrating.


the reason people get frustrated with you is the fact you're nitpicky as all heck and interject in calcs without having a high background or understanding of them, more often than not. The fact you're willing to go "I don't understand the calc so I'll ignore it" despite multiple OBDers more experienced not seeing a single problem is a big part of the issue, as well.




> "The crater"?  That's meaningless.  The crater is not an event, it's a result.  Is the calc assuming the crater was made by an explosion, or by the fire sustaining over the area for a period of time (which would make it hard to calc, since we can't know the exact amount of time it was held).  Are we assuming the damage was done by physical force, or by heat?  Well?


Doesn't matter, it's the energy involved. the fireball was a quick attack, and was letting off all it's energy quickly. Since it's not shown to have physical force, heat can be assumed, and since it's still destroying all that, creating the crater, it's still letting off X amount of energy, which can be calculated. The event was it making that crater in the first place.




> The last one I actually have a problem with upon thinking about it.  The picture does not show the crater from a flat perspective; it's skewed.  How does he come to the conclusion that the line red line he drew can be compared to Sasuke's arm as representative of the crater's depth?


Because it's still a straight line, and we're viewing sasuke's arm and the crater from the same perspective.



> Which is only valid if the measurements are accurate.


Good thing they are.




> Where does the 214.45 j/cc number come from?  What does it assume happened?


It is the number for the energy required to pulverize rock. It
wait for it
Assumes the rock is pulverized.




> It would mean starting there at that fight he would be fighting more seriously if he could and wanted to, pulling stuff on the level of what he did later in the war arc.  Either he couldn't, or he didn't want to and was holding back.


The only thing he wasn't doing in that fight, was using higher DC attacks. The reason he was holding back was to make naruto and sauce give up so that he could just take out the target without having to kill the 2 genin. He wanted it notable that they couldn't reach his level.
He did not, however, state he had any reason to die, so the idea his defenses would be any weaker dun fly.
And - Seriously, there is 0 factors supporting, and several factors detracting, from the theory that Edos can be any stronger than they were in life. they're constantly noted to be exactly the same, and there's absolutely no way Haku could have possibly gotten stronger while he was busy coming down with a case of death.




> It was airbending that Korra used block the explosion she reacted to, so evidently she can make wind move that fast.


Nice. Can she make herself that fast WITH wind. One of these involves moving wind by itself. the other involves lifting an entire person.



> Korra used the air spout technique to dodge the dark spirit that previously been blitzing her and all her friends in the fight starting at 17:30 , so it's supposed to be fast.


That's fine - not sure I'm seeing mach 14 value there though.


----------



## Wan (Jul 30, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> Has nothing to do with the fact he amped all his chakra, has to do with the fact that he has only trained physically - so he still has more practiced combos, some specific taijutsu abilities mastered that give him an advantage, and the gigantic buffs that are the eight gates technique. they just happened to be higher than what base gaara had for advantages, especially when he was relying on his sand shield anyways.
> Honestly, half the issue here is that Gaara's chakra isn' necessarily higher than lees, and the fact that it's not a linear scaling, but...
> 
> Except he's capable of at least having his initial lotus matched in strength by naruto and sasuke, the first merely using shadow clones to bridge the gap, but the other just using his own physical strength. Moreover, if it didn't require "just chakra" than the big speed/strength amps going on in part 2 from naruto's constant power-ups wouldn't be the slightest issue. If just being the highest in physical training ='d fastest/strongest, Gai would be able to kick Madara around WITHOUT the eight gates technique, and assume ownership of nardoverse. The fact that naruto hasn't spent any significant time training his physical stats but is now constantly matching and surpassing his physical stats is proof enough. This has also been true all the way from late part 1 to part 2 - Adding chakra is always noted to increase Naruto's strength and speed, and KN1 is above it both by it's current showings and by what is shown of Bijuu cloaks later.



This is going in circles.  Do you have any quotes from the manga to the effect that a high chakra level means more physical strength than anyone with a lower chakra level, or their specific jutsus?



> Doesn't matter, it's the energy involved. the fireball was a quick attack, and was letting off all it's energy quickly. Since it's not shown to have physical force, heat can be assumed, and since it's still destroying all that, creating the crater, it's still letting off X amount of energy, which can be calculated. The event was it making that crater in the first place.



Not shown to have physical force?  This is the first time the technique was even shown.  It could very well be either heat or physical force, there's no clear evidence for either.



> Because it's still a straight line, and we're viewing sasuke's arm and the crater from the same perspective.



It's not a straight line _down_, which would be the way to measure it directly.  It's diagonal, which would make the length greater than the actual height.



> It is the number for the energy required to pulverize rock.



I figured that, but based on what formula?  What frame of time?  What method?



> wait for it
> Assumes the rock is pulverized.



_Why?_



> The only thing he wasn't doing in that fight, was using higher DC attacks. The reason he was holding back was to make naruto and sauce give up so that he could just take out the target without having to kill the 2 genin. He wanted it notable that they couldn't reach his level.
> He did not, however, state he had any reason to die, so the idea his defenses would be any weaker dun fly.
> And - Seriously, there is 0 factors supporting, and several factors detracting, from the theory that Edos can be any stronger than they were in life. they're constantly noted to be exactly the same, and there's absolutely no way Haku could have possibly gotten stronger while he was busy coming down with a case of death.



Why are bringing up his DC as if it matters to the durability of one of his specific jutsus, then?  After all, a ninja technique doesn't change with it's user's power level, right?  The only thing we know about the mirrors for certain is that they can withstand Sasuke's gokakyu no jutsu, and that Naruto can punch through them.



> Nice. Can she make herself that fast WITH wind. One of these involves moving wind by itself. the other involves lifting an entire person.



Well, she threw an airbending attack at Unalaq, which he avoided:


*Spoiler*: __ 











Korra and Unalaq were on par with speed on their water and air spouts, so they were both moving as fast as Korra could move air by itself.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 30, 2014)

Wan said:


> This is going in circles.  Do you have any quotes from the manga to the effect that a high chakra level means more physical strength than anyone with a lower chakra level, or their specific jutsus?


There isn't needed. There's simply the fact that Naruto and any other character get amps in speed and strength every single time they've got a boost in chakra. There is 0 circle there. 
Again, you're ignoring the many times where KN0 naruto is directly stated to be much stronger and faster than normal in the form, and the fact Bijuu cloaks have always affected stats. You're also ignoring the fact that in part 2 more chakra generally = win. The burden of proof to prove it doesn't add anything to their strength/speed comes to you to disprove the fact that any of the points in time Naruto and co. Have become much stronger/faster through chakra boosts.
This isn't circular and really requires nothing to be proven. 




> Not shown to have physical force?  This is the first time the technique was even shown.  It could very well be either heat or physical force, there's no clear evidence for either.


There's the evidence that it's literally just a gout of flame. There's nothing suggesting it was physical force, and given it's literally referred to as "a fire technique" the most sensible assumption is that it's acting as flames until proven otherwise.




> It's not a straight line _down_, which would be the way to measure it directly.  It's diagonal, which would make the length greater than the actual height.


Because it's a circular crater. Measuring directly down doesn't work from this perspective, since at that point we'd be measuring the length/width again, which would give an inaccurate result.




> I figured that, but based on what formula?  What frame of time?  What method?


That one I'm too lazy to dig up, but if you have a problem with it, I'll note that same value is used in several different places on the OBD for things from Nardo to bleach to actually good series. I'd let someone skilled at calc'ing dig that one up for you if you're that interested, but given it's being used several times here, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's not an asspulled value, particularly when it's a value on several different calcs.
Unless we're going to start questioning every single OBD calc in existence while we're at it here.



_Why?_
Because the rock there is safest to be assumed as being pulverized. It's a crater with little in the way of fragments but leaving dust, so it's not melted and it's not fragmented. Pulverization. This is really simple logic here, I'm not sure whether you know what we're talking about, or are just throwing questions out, because this is something very basic.




> Why are bringing up his DC as if it matters to the durability of one of his specific jutsus, then?  After all, a ninja technique doesn't change with it's user's power level, right?  The only thing we know about the mirrors for certain is that they can withstand Sasuke's gokakyu no jutsu, and that Naruto can punch through them.


That they can withstand Sasuke's early gokakyu. And that's correct. Naruto can punch through them. The point I was making was that haku wasn't any weaker than in the war arc. We seem to be agreed on that, so let's ignore it for now and move on.




> Well, she threw an airbending attack at Unalaq, which he avoided:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Fair enough. Doesn't necessarily help Korra here - more distance gives KN1 Naruto more time to dodge, too.

Again, She can get grabbed mid-spurt via Chakra claw, too.

I'm probably not going to dispute regarding the calc here any longer, as this is fairly asinine, but if you have an actual issue, why don't you post on the blog what your question is and get it answered by the guy who actually made it rather than go "I don't understand the math or what it means" And deciding that it's made invalid via your lack of physics knowledge. You don't have to agree with the calcs, but unless you can bring evidence to outright get it disproven, we generally abide by them in the dome - this is something you should know given the large length of time you've spent here.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Jul 30, 2014)

dunno where that specific figure comes from

I'd search around the various conceptual calcers, i.e feebas/cable/flutter

they have some blogs on general calcing values/standards/applications/whatever


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## Blitzomaru (Jul 30, 2014)

Can't naruto, I dunno, NOT used kyuubi chakra and just simply make 2000 clones and bum rush Korra? Like I said before, he made 2000 clones when he fought Gaara. And had him beat until Gaara transformed into Shukaku. why not do it here?


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## AgentAAA (Jul 30, 2014)

Blitzomaru said:


> Can't naruto, I dunno, NOT used kyuubi chakra and just simply make 2000 clones and bum rush Korra? Like I said before, he made 2000 clones when he fought Gaara. And had him beat until Gaara transformed into Shukaku. why not do it here?


to be frank, the fact that one-tailed Kyuubi Naruto is so weak overall really screws him here. Hell, he could just go with regular kyuubi 0 mode - that's actually got more feats for itself, and it leaves him able to do clones still.
the fact KN1 is so featless really screws it over, all in all.


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## ChaosTheory123 (Jul 30, 2014)

Wan said:


> I figured that, but based on what formula?  What frame of time?  What method?



Wow... the places lurking at 6 am takes you around here.

The fuck am I doing in an avatar vs naruto thread

Anyway...

The value for pulverization was something fluttershit dug up.  It was a good 2 years ago now I'd figure at least.

Couldn't tell you where it came from any longer, but older blogs were better about linking shit.

Thing is, it became common knowledge over time, so we got lazy.

Tough luck for you, but have fun digging chuckles.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 30, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> to be frank, the fact that one-tailed Kyuubi Naruto is so weak overall really screws him here. Hell, he could just go with regular kyuubi 0 mode - that's actually got more feats for itself, and it leaves him able to do clones still.
> the fact KN1 is so featless really screws it over, all in all.



Do we really need feats in this case? Can't we assume he can use clones, I mean I understand 4 tailed naruto having that restriction- but don't think it
Makes much sense in this match. 

Why don't we just  say that making clones is easier then forming a rasengan? 

Naruto who is bad at making clones learned the Justu in a few hours, rasengan took weeks. I don't see why we should allow naruto to use rasengan and not shadow clones. 



The argument that he is too feral to make clones doesnot  hold because he made a rasengan. 

Lastly, in regards to physical streanght I believe the best scalable feat is: 





Has this feat been calced? Naruto stops orochimarus summoned snake cold.


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## Iwandesu (Jul 30, 2014)

powescalling is a thing.
kn1 not getting base chouji casual showing is utter bs.
even more when chunnin exam sauce chidori has cb piercing and base nardo rasengan is above it.


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## Wan (Jul 30, 2014)

AgentAAA said:


> There isn't needed. There's simply the fact that Naruto and any other character get amps in speed and strength every single time they've got a boost in chakra. There is 0 circle there.
> Again, you're ignoring the many times where KN0 naruto is directly stated to be much stronger and faster than normal in the form, and the fact Bijuu cloaks have always affected stats. You're also ignoring the fact that in part 2 more chakra generally = win. The burden of proof to prove it doesn't add anything to their strength/speed comes to you to disprove the fact that any of the points in time Naruto and co. Have become much stronger/faster through chakra boosts.
> This isn't circular and really requires nothing to be proven.



And you're ignoring that base Naruto doesn't have particularly noteworthy strength despite his high levels of chakra, which allows him to use so many shadow clones.  As far as I'm concerned, this is just an interpretation with no hard proof behind it.



> There's the evidence that it's literally just a gout of flame. There's nothing suggesting it was physical force, and given it's literally referred to as "a fire technique" the most sensible assumption is that it's acting as flames until proven otherwise.



And yet the actual full scan of the fire impacting shows bits of debris being ripped up.  That wouldn't happen if it was all heat and no physical force.

Alternately, if it _is_ just heat, then Haku's mirrors withstanding it is just a feat of heat resistance.  It says nothing about the physical hardness of the mirrors, meaning Naruto's punch through it has nothing to compare to.



> Because it's a circular crater. Measuring directly down doesn't work from this perspective, since at that point we'd be measuring the length/width again, which would give an inaccurate result.



And how is measuring it like he did any better?



> That one I'm too lazy to dig up, but if you have a problem with it, I'll note that same value is used in several different places on the OBD for things from Nardo to bleach to actually good series. I'd let someone skilled at calc'ing dig that one up for you if you're that interested, but given it's being used several times here, I'm going to go ahead and assume it's not an asspulled value, particularly when it's a value on several different calcs.
> Unless we're going to start questioning every single OBD calc in existence while we're at it here.



I'm not going to look up stuff for the opposite side of the argument.  If it's not worth your time to look up, it's not worth my time.



> Fair enough. Doesn't necessarily help Korra here - more distance gives KN1 Naruto more time to dodge, too.
> 
> Again, She can get grabbed mid-spurt via Chakra claw, too.



True, both can dodge if Korra keeps her distance, but that still works in Korra's favor, given that Naruto is on a clock for how long he can keep KN1 up.



Blitzomaru said:


> Can't naruto, I dunno, NOT used kyuubi chakra and just simply make 2000 clones and bum rush Korra? Like I said before, he made 2000 clones when he fought Gaara. And had him beat until Gaara transformed into Shukaku. why not do it here?



Gaara was a relatively immobile enemy that Naruto could dogpile on.  Korra isn't.  There's no reason to think clones would be any more effective against her than Sasuke, and Korra has more ability to get out of the clones' reach and throw them all back with air spouts and expanding air spheres.



Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Do we really need feats in this case? Can't we assume he can use clones, I mean I understand 4 tailed naruto having that restriction- but don't think it



In Part 2 when Naruto triggered the chakra cloak in an early fight with Deidara, his clones were crippled with pain rather than being augmented themselves.



> Has this feat been calced? Naruto stops orochimarus summoned snake cold.



That seems like it wouldn't really be calcable since it's a combination of the Naruto's strength and the branch they're standing on stopping the snake.  And we don't know the snake's strength.


----------



## AgentAAA (Jul 30, 2014)

Wan said:


> And you're ignoring that base Naruto doesn't have particularly noteworthy strength despite his high levels of chakra, which allows him to use so many shadow clones.  As far as I'm concerned, this is just an interpretation with no hard proof behind it.


He does. He has superhuman showings all through story. How are you missing the fact that later in part 2 there's gigantic boosts.
Unless you're suggesting Base Naruto is = to RM mode nardo later in-story. This is an interpretation with much more support than what you're giving, which is "I don't think it's noteworthy ENOUGH strength to be considered"




> And yet the actual full scan of the fire impacting shows bits of debris being ripped up.  That wouldn't happen if it was all heat and no physical force.


Throw enough energy at anything, and, heat or not, it's going to show a lot of damage.
Again, it's irrelevant. What matters is that the energy pulverized X amount of rock. That's all that's being calced is the base energy amount.



> Alternately, if it _is_ just heat, then Haku's mirrors withstanding it is just a feat of heat resistance.  It says nothing about the physical hardness of the mirrors, meaning Naruto's punch through it has nothing to compare to.


Don't start with split durability bullshit now. This isn't something that I'll even bother arguing about. It's been done way too many times at this point.




> And how is measuring it like he did any better?


Because it's following a line there that gives a clear start and endpoint. If you look he matches the line towards a slope line in the crater, giving him a clear start and endpoint to work with - since it's going to go down at least that far. It gives a clear slope to work with.




> I'm not going to look up stuff for the opposite side of the argument.  If it's not worth your time to look up, it's not worth my time.


You're the one attempting to disprove the calc many people agree with. Reason it's not worth my time is because it's something widely accepted as a value by people with higher education thant I have. Bring up a legitimate argument against the energy amount or stop wasting time. Not every calc needs to be reproofed to your standards, particularly when it needs to be explained to you in the first place.




> True, both can dodge if Korra keeps her distance, but that still works in Korra's favor, given that Naruto is on a clock for how long he can keep KN1 up.


I was generally assuming that we were keeping him off the timer here. If we're making Nardo stay in a possibly unfavorable form(based on if we can reach a consensus on the clones) and giving him the time limit... seems a bit unfairly favored towards Korra.





> Gaara was a relatively immobile enemy that Naruto could dogpile on.  Korra isn't.  There's no reason to think clones would be any more effective against her than Sasuke, and Korra has more ability to get out of the clones' reach and throw them all back with air spouts and expanding air spheres.


Several things.
First off, Gaara wasn't immobile. He just had no way of getting away when surrounded on all sides.
Secondly, 




> In Part 2 when Naruto triggered the chakra cloak in an early fight with Deidara, his clones were crippled with pain rather than being augmented themselves.


 If I recall correctly, that was 2-tails. In other words, not 1-tail.




> That seems like it wouldn't really be calcable since it's a combination of the Naruto's strength and the branch they're standing on stopping the snake.  And we don't know the snake's strength.


Oh, clearly the branch is doing all the work.

Of course.

It's not as though Naruto would still have to stop a snake of that size(and size + momentum matters a lot here, just by it's size and given the fact it's just a larger-than-normal snake we can get an estimate from that) From crushing him between it and the branch.

 Clearly if a normal human had that leverage they could stop a snake that from eyeballing looks to be several tons in weight at least by sheer size alone(Unless you think a snake that looks proportionally larger than an elephant is a few hundred pounds of force) it's a clearly superhuman feat from just eyeballing.

The snake's strength here matters less than it's size and weight. Naruto stops both cold. and this is ridiculous downplay to say that stopping a gigantic snake is any less than superhuman.
Nardo has no feats of strength at all, clearly 

I'm going to go off of being ordered and calm in my response here.
Look at this thing:

Look. At this thing!


It's goddamn head in that panel is easily larger than an adult man by over a dozen times!
It's. a giant. snake.
It's head. is comparable. to an elephant.
Are you seriously going to say that something with that size and mass is not a several-tons feat to stop the momentum when it's in quick motion. I've no idea how to respond to that.
The damn snake's large building level by virtue of being able to just walk into and through a large building.
But alright. you wanna know the snake's strength?



Going to point out... Naruto tanked that. I wonder what superhuman force is somehow empowering him to be able to do so. maybe his stats AREN'T peak human except for jutsu. And maybe you're downplaying where downplaying is clearly not due and forcing an interpretation contradicted by the source material.

Gee, maybe it's that chakra thing that every character in the series uses, that Naruto has increased in order to amp strength and speed in every form, to the point he could keep up with high-tiers like raikage, then go further and equal top-tiers like Obito, capable of blitzing and harming anyone else.
I wonder if the fact he's using physical blows and the like there means that he's using chakra to enhance himself. I just wonder.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 30, 2014)

Let's talk clones 





So, it's true that of naruto enters two tails his clones feel a 'burning sensation' however  they don't dispell. We know they don't dispell because on pg 13 of the same chapter I linked we see the two shadow clones still active that naruto made prior to entering two tailed mode. 

So Naruto's clones stay even if naruto goes two tailed. 



In this chapter, during Naruto's training, his clone uses the kyubi cloak. 



So, clearly Naruto's clones are capable of utilizing kyubi cloak. The fact that his clones can use it, should solidify that he can make clones in KN1- the only problem with shadow clones usingn the kyubi cloak, is that at that point in time his seal was weakening, meaning that is clones risked KN3. 

Basically, Naruto's clones work fine with kyubi chakra, in part 2. Only problem is if they use too much kyubi chakra they become feral and attack Everbody. Obviously, kn1 doesnot fear this because on KN1 he was cognizant enough to not want to kill Sasuke. 

Furthermore, I understand that apparently Korra is fast enough and durable enough to take not get 1 hit. 

However, naruto does have the dc and speed to take her out eventually. 

Does Korra have anything to hurt naruto? Does she have anything on the level of sasukes black chidori?? 

As I see it, it's basically a slug fest however naruto can take a much greater beating then Korra. 

Unless Korra has a way to take naruto out, then it becomes a battle of attribution. I don't see Korra beating kyubi enhanced naruto in that type of battle. Atleast without avatar state z


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## DarQDawG (Jul 30, 2014)

It's absurd to claim Korra has "hypersonic" reflexes, but whatever.

The fact is nothing Korra has can damage one taile Naruto. She simply can't penetrate his cloak because her shape manipulation isn't on the same level as the Narutoverse. Water is what they use to cut with and that ain't going to cut Naruto in one tailed mode.


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## Fujita (Jul 30, 2014)

DarQDawG said:


> It's absurd to claim Korra has "hypersonic" reflexes, but whatever.


----------



## Wan (Jul 31, 2014)

Again, going in circles.  If I leave anything out it's because I don't feel like there's anything to be added to that bit of discussion.



AgentAAA said:


> He does. He has superhuman showings all through story. How are you missing the fact that later in part 2 there's gigantic boosts.
> Unless you're suggesting Base Naruto is = to RM mode nardo later in-story. This is an interpretation with much more support than what you're giving, which is "I don't think it's noteworthy ENOUGH strength to be considered"



The point is that pathetic, right at the start of the series Naruto didn't have any particular talent with superstrength, but he still had large reserves of chakra.  That's what made him able to use the shadow clone jutsu on such a large scale right off the bat.



> Because it's following a line there that gives a clear start and endpoint. If you look he matches the line towards a slope line in the crater, giving him a clear start and endpoint to work with - since it's going to go down at least that far. It gives a clear slope to work with.



"Slope"?  The height of a dome is not a "slope".



> I was generally assuming that we were keeping him off the timer here. If we're making Nardo stay in a possibly unfavorable form(based on if we can reach a consensus on the clones) and giving him the time limit... seems a bit unfairly favored towards Korra.



If you do that, then Naruto's range is limited because of the lack of chakra claws, giving Korra the advantage if she stays airborne.



> Several things.
> First off, Gaara wasn't immobile. He just had no way of getting away when surrounded on all sides.



His fighting style was a lot more stationary than Korra's.  If he didn't have a way, then Korra does through the air spout and expanding air shields.



> If I recall correctly, that was 2-tails. In other words, not 1-tail.



Naruto goes straight to 2 tails; we know that intense heat comes with the chakra cloak even at 1 tail, and what affected the clones was a crippling sensation of heat. It makes more sense that it's simply the chakra cloak and it explains why Naruto stopped using clones once he went 1 tail. 




> Oh, clearly the branch is doing all the work.
> 
> Of course.



I didn't say it was doing _all_ the work.  But yes, Naruto clearly had to contribute a significant amount of strength.  It's clearly taking everything he has to keep it off.  Either way, it's an impressive strength feat.  It's better for direct evidence than trying to scale with Chouji.



Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha said:


> Let's talk clones
> 
> 
> 
> ...



They stay, but they're useless if they're crippled by the heat channeled through the cloak.



> In this chapter, during Naruto's training, his clone uses the kyubi cloak.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The other clones clearly freak out at the sight of that clone going kyuubi.  Naruto seems to lose control of clones if they do that.  This could be a tradeoff with the fact that a clone going kyuubi didn't cause the rest of them to have that crippling heat sensation.



> Does Korra have anything to hurt naruto? Does she have anything on the level of sasukes black chidori??
> 
> As I see it, it's basically a slug fest however naruto can take a much greater beating then Korra.
> 
> Unless Korra has a way to take naruto out, then it becomes a battle of attribution. I don't see Korra beating kyubi enhanced naruto in that type of battle. Atleast without avatar state z



I've posted destruction and defense feats for Korra throughout the thread. And I'm not sure why you added that last bit, because Korra can use the Avatar State and used it frequently in her fights with Vaatu and Unalaq.



DarQDawG said:


> It's absurd to claim Korra has "hypersonic" reflexes, but whatever.
> 
> The fact is nothing Korra has can damage one taile Naruto. She simply can't penetrate his cloak because her shape manipulation isn't on the same level as the Narutoverse. Water is what they use to cut with and that ain't going to cut Naruto in one tailed mode.



"Shape manipluation"?  What is that even supposed to mean?  Her firebending has explosive force, enough to shatter a large ice wall made by Unalaq that I showed pages back.  Her waterbending is also on par with Unalaq's, who used it to slice through several large boulders Korra threw at him.


*Spoiler*: __ 











Also notable is that Korra made an ice shield that withstood a follow up attack from Unalaq:



*Spoiler*: __


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jul 31, 2014)

Wan said:


> Again, going in circles.  If I leave anything out it's because I don't feel like there's anything to be added to that bit of discussion.
> 
> The point is that pathetic, right at the start of the series Naruto didn't have any particular talent with superstrength, but he still had large reserves of chakra.  That's what made him able to use the shadow clone jutsu on such a large scale right off the bat.
> 
> I didn't say it was doing _all_ the work.  But yes, Naruto clearly had to contribute a significant amount of strength.  It's clearly taking everything he has to keep it off.  Either way, it's an impressive strength feat.  It's better for direct evidence than trying to scale with Chouji.



large reserves =/= super strength, in that regard you're right. However chakra can be used to enhance the body and increase speed and strength. Naruto never did this early in the series, however with the Kyuubi's chakra it works differently, it enhances everything about him including strength, speed, reserves, and regen without Naruto having to do any work.

There's no reason for Naruto to not scale to base Chouji when he's been enhanced physically to the point where he's beyond most shinobi. Chouji himself received a similar boost with his pills and thus there's no reason why Naruto's cloak wouldn't do the same for him.


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Jul 31, 2014)

Wan said:


> So more chakra = more physical strength?  Yeah, I'll need to see a source on that.  Because there are some powerhouses of chakra in the Narutoverse who don't have any strength of note -- Gaara, for example.
> 
> 
> .



This is fairly basic. 

From a definition standpoint, chakra is composed of  physical and spiritual strength. 






So, more chakra does mean more physical strength, by definition. 

When you consider that the kyubi doesnot have any ying chakra and is only yang ( physical) then it makes sense that Kyubi naruto is so physically powerfull. 

Essentially, the fact that naruto has more chakra means he has more of its parts. Well, its parts include physical and mental energy. Unless you think he has more mental energy, then aslong as he has more chakra then someone he also has more physical energy. So, if a streanght amplification technique is not  being used and naruto has more chakra- he should get the appropriate power scaling. 


Chakra is about utility, depending on how you want it used it can do different things- from ninjustu to physical enhancement. Considering that Naruto isnot using clones this match --- It should make sense that all of his chakra goes to physical enhancement. furthermore, while impossible to calc, we know that the naruto we saw fight sasuke wasnot at full chakra capacity. He fought sasuke, and before that made hundreds of clones against kimimaro. 

- Since chakra = physical streanght/mental streanght, it should follow that a rested naruto in KN1 would be significantly stronger then his VOTE showing. 



I Still don't think we are on the same page in regards to speed. Naruto gets scaling from Sasuke vs Gaara fight. 

- Naruto in KN0 was too fast for sasuke to respond to. Essentially, putting Naruto in KN0 as faster then unweighted lee. ( sasuke is said to be just as fast as lee + sasuke has precog) 

- If naruto can be faster then lee( unweighted), I don't see why he cant be stronger then choji. Of course, KN1 is a order of magnitude above KN0. 

My point is that, Naruto in KN1 is faster then characters that are > speed of sound. I know that Korra can react to naruto, she can even put of a wind barrier- but that's not enough. 

She is fast enough to react to naruto, but can she hit him? Whats her fastest attack? 

As far as I can tell, her elemental attacks are very slow atleast compared to Naruto. 

Peak humans can dodge bending attacks. 

Furthermore, I took a look a the DC feats you posted in the thread-- 

Naruto can take and continue to fight after atleast 1 chidori. 



Does korra have anything that does that much damage- and is fast enough to hit naruto? 

Note- Naruto surived sauskes attack via regen not direct durability. - 

I don't even think korra can break through Naruto's cloak. - With a roar in KNO he dispersed sasukes katon,-- KN1 he completely tanked it. Not only does she need to break the cloak, but she would need to do damage comparable to sasukes chidori. 

Sure, narutos regen has limits, he can only regen once ( without passing out). - However I don't see korra doing that severe damage once,- forget about doing it twice.


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## AgentAAA (Aug 1, 2014)

Wan said:


> Again, going in circles.  If I leave anything out it's because I don't feel like there's anything to be added to that bit of discussion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Reborns Allmark (Aug 1, 2014)

> large reserves =/= super strength, in that regard you're right. However chakra can be used to enhance the body and increase speed and strength. Naruto never did this early in the series, however with the Kyuubi's chakra it works differently, it enhances everything about him including strength, speed, reserves, and regen without Naruto having to do any work.



I'd think you'd need superhuman strength to do this, at least:


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## Naruto Maelstrom Uchiha (Aug 1, 2014)

Reborns Allmark said:


> I'd think you'd need superhuman strength to do this, at least:




Of course you need superhuman streanght. A full grown man would struggle opening that jaw of a real world regular everyday snake. Forget about the giant chakra enhanced one.


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