# current toriko well not current current vs kaguya



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

who wins here?


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

Kaguya takes any toriko handily.
she can either bfr or outright kill him.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

how?how can she even dream of this let alone to do this let alone actually manage it before she gets served as an appetizer


----------



## ShadowReaper (Nov 28, 2014)

Kaguya terribly stomps. 

Planet level/Moon level>>>>>>country level.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

nope moon lv + > multi continent which is kaguya also 5 diigits > than 4 digits and of course 1000 moon lv + punches damaging internally > moon lv 

mugen kugi punch dont forget that


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> how?how can she even dream of this let alone to do this let alone actually manage it before she gets served as an appetizer


...
let's assume this is base kaguya.
4 digit MHS+ reactions ,spatial manipulation that ignores range has enough physical power to blow away Ashura Nardo.(Continent level physically) and can output Moon+-Small planet level Chibaku tensei's
while Toriko is
4 digit Mhs+ reactions/Speed and Continent+ Hype


----------



## ShadowReaper (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> nope moon lv + > multi continent which is kaguya also 5 diigits > than 4 digits and of course 1000 moon lv + punches damaging internally > moon lv
> 
> mugen kugi punch dont forget that





Even Juudara did a planet/moon level feat with Mugen Tsukiyomi.

Even dying Rikudo, in an old age and being weakened because of Juubi's extraction from his body created a new planet out of nothing. 

And just imagine how strong is EoS Kaguya with Juubi?

Even Naruto and Sasuke will stomp Toriko and his friends.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

hype you kidding right?so current toriko is the same as just the limbs of the four beast and not even the 4beast himself?

after all those boosts?im doing you a favor and saying moon lv and the highest speed of buranch ages ago should be more than suited for him

also creating a thing destroying it if there was a cold statement that he destroyed a moon lv thingy and then somehow remade(a little pointless) but he just used gravity to take some parts which can be done easily and {Even Juudara did a planet/moon level feat with Mugen Tsukiyomi.} post scan if you can

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ShadowReaper (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> hype you kidding right?so current toriko is the same as just the limbs of the four beast and not even the 4beast himself?
> 
> after all those boosts?im doing you a favor and saying moon lv and the highest speed of buranch ages ago should be more than suited for him
> 
> also creating a thing destroying it if there was a cold statement that he destroyed a moon lv thingy and then somehow remade(a little pointless) but he just used gravity to take some parts which can be done easily and {Even Juudara did a planet/moon level feat with Mugen Tsukiyomi.} post scan if you can









As you can see, he created an artificial mini "Moon", that had an effect on the whole planet. 

And with Juubi's powers, he surely can do even more.

Kaguya is the original holder of Juubi's powers, so the obvious conclusion is that she can easily do all this and a lot more.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> hype you kidding right?so current toriko is the same as just the limbs of the four beast and not even the 4beast himself?
> after all those boosts?im doing you a favor and saying moon lv


He could have ten more boosts.
w/out continent level feats or legit continent level scalling he is stuck with Country level+ (not even sure if that's is the case)


> and the highest speed of buranch ages ago should be more than suited for him


Buranchi Speed scalling ?
wether it is or not applied to anyone besides buranchi and the disciples of acacia is something i can't really discuss.
the current consensus is for the latter,tho.



> also creating a thing destroying it if there was a cold statement that he destroyed a moon lv thingy and then somehow remade(a little pointless) *but he just used gravity to take some parts which can be done easily* and {Even Juudara did a planet/moon level feat with Mugen Tsukiyomi.} post scan if you can


no he didn't, he also projected the moon out of the orbit.
and no it isn't,the energy needed to create CT is huge and if he can display this much of energy via gravity control nothing stops him from crushing toriko with this same gravity.
Madara moon level feat comes from his CT raindrop, each of them being bigger than his first meteor.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2014)

> Mugen Kugi Punch
> Joa-level attack
> Not above country-level


----------



## Linkofone (Nov 28, 2014)

The debate here is strong.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

Black Leg Sanji said:


> > Mugen Kugi Punch
> > Joa-level attack
> > Not above country-level


Sadly i didn't read timeskip toriko yet.
but if it is legitimely above Joa.
then,yeah...
how casual is it,tho ?
Kaguya Bfr is always her first move and will land way before any ranged attack from a character on her same speed ballpark.


----------



## MysticBlade (Nov 28, 2014)

> He could have ten more boosts.w/out continent level feats or legit continent level scalling he is stuck with Country level+ (not even sure if that's is the case)



Pre air toriko was multi continent+ scaling off base sani, what the hell are you talking about?



> Buranchi Speed scalling ?



Sani was out speeding buranchi, you figure out the rest.

Also, toriko is capable of outputting joa level attacks which should be way beyond multi continent. 

Mind you i honestly don't give a damn about the outcome of match, only here for correcting stats.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

MysticBlade said:


> Pre air toriko was multi continent+ scaling off base sani, what the hell are you talking about?


i'm talking about the fact you are the only one who ever talks about this scalling.
i legitimaly don't know if it is legit.


> Sani was out speeding buranchi, you figure out the rest.


wasn't buranchi speed only for reactions and short movement ?


> Also, toriko is capable of outputting joa level attacks which should be way beyond multi continent.


How casual they were?
How much time was needed to charge them ?
Is there any reason to toriko pick them over his usual attacks ?
regardless, Kaguya will just BFR Toriko right away.


----------



## MysticBlade (Nov 28, 2014)

> i'm talking about the fact you are the only one who ever talks about this scalling.i legitimaly don't know if it is legit.



No I'm not, it's just other people just don't give a damn to even post on anything toriko related lately. 

The first calc dealt with sani compressing air, it came out 700 petetons. Later kazu did another calc, this time. We went with planet stated values. It came out to 410 petetons, it droped quite a bite. 
This can be scale to the heavenly kings seeing as it's zebra> toriko> sani=coco.
Later during the same arc, it was stated and shown that toriko is more powerful than that. he can now output joa level attacks after air power up.



> wasn't buranchi speed only for reactions and short movement ?



He said he can travel 10,000 k/s, that's his maximum long distance travel speed. Same with short distance,  there's really no difference between the two. alot ignore this fact sani out speed him, though i'll end here concerning that.



> How casual they were?How much time was needed to charge them ?Is there any reason to toriko pick them over his usual attacks ?



Very casual, toriko didn't look strained at all when doing it. He was freaking piss as hell though.
There's no charge time, it's just like his normal kugi punches when you compare time needed to preform. 



> regardless, Kaguya will just BFR Toriko right away.


This all depends on speed tbh, though if the obd still has a problem with sani out speeding buranchi.  Then yeah, he gets bfr.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

MysticBlade said:


> No I'm not, it's just *other people just don't give a damn to even post on anything toriko related lately. *


true enough.


> The first calc dealt with sani compressing air, it came out 700 petetons. Later kazu did another calc, this time. We went with planet stated values. It came out to 410 petetons, it droped quite a bite.
> This can be scale to the heavenly kings seeing as it's zebra> toriko> sani=coco.


just checked the calc.


			
				God Movement said:
			
		

> Mid continent level heavenly kings


if GM said who am i to oppose ?
Toriko is indeed getting stronger.


> Later during the same arc, it was stated and shown that toriko is more powerful than that. he can now output joa level attacks after air power up.


Wasn't Joa Planet+ ? this would be quite a boost for wathever way this power up works.


> He said he can travel 10,000 k/s, that's his maximum long distance travel speed. Same with short distance,  there's really no difference between the two. alot ignore this fact sani out speed him, though i'll end here concerning that.


well, i'll just take your word there, then.


> Very casual, toriko didn't look strained at all when doing it. *He was freaking piss as hell though*.There's no charge time, it's just like his normal kugi punches when you compare time needed to preform.


>Very Casual. 
>Planet level+
>Toriko
Holy powerup, Batman 
Would a Bl Toriko just outrigth attain this kind of level, then ?



> This all depends on speed tbh, though if the obd still has a problem with sani out speeding buranchi.  Then yeah, he gets bfr.


Mach 30k is not enough to blitz,tho (even if it was accepted)
He would need a ranged attack to kill her.
and even then, it would likely end being a stalemate.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

so you dont read toriko  and actually debate?and you have madara meteors really?do you even know mugen kugi punch which one shotted shigematsu

also not you go with an increase as just + in toriko each increase is a whole tier and yes current toriko should be maybe faster than mach 30000


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> so you dont read toriko  and actually debate?


i do read Toriko.
i'm finishing Ice Hell at the moment.
Regardless, one doesn't really need to read a fiction to debate it on a fight against a verse he knows about as far as it is given the overral stats of the characters.


> and you have madara meteors really?


what was this supposed to mean ? 


> do you even know mugen kugi punch which one shotted shigematsu
> also not you go with an increase as just + in toriko each increase is a whole tier and yes current toriko should be maybe faster than mach 30000


 you'd better organise your replies better,really.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

you'd better organise your replies better,really.
that really have been told to me a gogleplex times also mind if i spoil latest chapter/?


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

Kaguya is faster than Madara who reacts the instant teleportation occurs(he has done so on at least three different panels). So Toriko gets bfr'd right off the bat.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

^is that your first time posting?gaoh reacted to ftl lasers if you want like that and tele doesnt matter its the person reaction so if he was mach 3 and bale to tele then kaguya would be mach 7 most


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> ^is that your first time posting?gaoh reacted to ftl lasers if you want like that and tele doesnt matter its the person reaction so if he was mach 3 and bale to tele then kaguya would be mach 7 most


You realize we have a post count right? Yet you ask if that was my first post? Smh.

s/t teleportation>FTL.

Also Madara reacts the panel teleportation occurs which has no thing to do with the TP users reactions. And kaguya gets scaled to be faster than Madara so....


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

s/t teleportation>FTL.


u serious right you really serious?a feat barely in the 4 digit range as ftl but here take this 

 thats a real feat


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Kaguya is faster than Madara who reacts the instant teleportation occurs(he has done so on at least three different panels). So Toriko gets bfr'd right off the bat.


this just means he is way faster than both minato and tobirama (which is true even by calcs alone)
the moment minato ended teleporting he got detected by madara who kicked him away before he could do jackish.


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> this just means he is way faster than both minato and tobirama (which is true even by calcs alone)
> the moment minato ended teleporting he got detected by madara who kicked him away before he could do jackish.


The instant Tobirama appears using hiriashin Madara reacts with an !


The instant Minato appears Madara is already looking towards him indicating a reaction.


The instant Sasuke teleported his sword into Madara he reacted with a !!?


Going by feats Madara can react to Instanteous teleporters and Kaguya gets scaled past Madara


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> The instant Tobirama appears using hiriashin Madara reacts with an !
> 
> 
> The instant Minato appears Madara is already looking towards him indicating a reaction.
> ...


...maybe because Madara can sense chakra ? and has precognition ? and is way faster than his enemy in at least one of these examples ?


> The instant Sasuke teleported his sword into Madara he reacted with a !!?


this isn't even a reaction feat.
Madara was helpless against sauce teleportation, hence why he couldn't even move away.
am i really having to explain why Madara is not ftl ?


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

iwandesu has it tough...well carry on then i can continue


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> ...maybe because Madara can sense chakra ? and has precognition ? and is way faster than his enemy in at least one of these examples ?
> 
> this isn't even a reaction feat.
> Madara was helpless against sauce teleportation, hence why he couldn't even move away.
> am i really having to explain why Madara is not ftl ?



He was able to react due to those reasons yes(and precog wouldn't help because hiriashin is not movement)... But that doesn't take any way from him actually reacting the instant/ panel the teleportation occurred.

If Madara has a !? The panel its actively getting teleported into his body then yes that is a reaction feat. You do know what reaction means right? 
The reason he couldn't move out of the way is because he got the sword teleported into his body. And he was actively moving beforehand so that point is moot.

All the evidence supports Madara having FTL reactions.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 28, 2014)

huuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr is all I'm seeing from the above post

teleportation =/= actual speed 

derp derp INSTANTANEOUS REFLEXES is a Phenomenol tier argument


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

so madara is ftl....good to know


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> huuuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr is all I'm seeing from the above post
> 
> teleportation =/= actual speed
> 
> derp derp INSTANTANEOUS REFLEXES is a Phenomenol tier argument



When the evidence contradicts preconceived notions.. We must change our notions.




yujiro said:


> so madara is ftl....good to know


Glad I can help.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> He was able to react due to those reasons yes(and precog wouldn't help because hiriashin is not movement)... But that doesn't take any way from him actually reacting the instant/ panel the teleportation occurred.


nah you're right, is not the fact he can sense from where the attacks are coming that proves he didn't reacted to the telepor.
is the fact he is not reacting to the teleportation but to the attacks that come after it.


> If Madara has a !? The panel its actively getting teleported into his body then yes that is a reaction feat. You do know what reaction means right?
> The reason he couldn't move out of the way is because he got the sword teleported into his body. And he was actively moving beforehand so that point is moot.


no if madara has an a "!?" it means he realised there is a freaking sword piercing his gut.
i mean are you for real here ? i'm pretty sure kisame had the same reaction when nardo kicked him after teleporting.


> All the evidence supports Madara having FTL reactions.


which is pretty obvious when there is no evidence at all.


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> nah you're right, is not the fact he can sense from where the attacks are coming that proves he didn't reacted to the telepor.
> is the fact he is not reacting to the teleportation but to the attacks that come after it.
> 
> no if madara has an a "!?" it means he realised there is a freaking sword piercing his gut.
> ...



How does he sense Instanteous spacetime attacks before the said space time jutsu was used? Are you saying he can sense chakra before it even gets there(and it gets there by teleporting). Even if he did it was never shown hinted nor implied and thus has no evidence behind said claim.
Also the panels I showed was him reacting the panel teleportation occurred(hence the movement lines on Minato and the jutsu name in the panel of tobirama teleporting in).. Not to the attacks that follow the immediate panel after wards.

Exactly he realized the sword was piercing his gut the instant the sword Pierce's his gut. Thus he reacted the instant he was stabbed.

Also Naruto does not have teleportation... He did react to Naruto shunshin though.

And personal bias does not discount the evidence at hand.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

ssmg let me show you sth


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

Yujro is that picture of flash?


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

yep yep it is also dont forget the i after j


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> How does he sense Instanteous spacetime attacks before the said space time jutsu was used? Are you saying he can sense chakra before it even gets there(and it gets there by teleporting). Even if he did it was never shown hinted nor implied and thus has no evidence behind said claim.
> Also the panels I showed was him reacting the panel teleportation occurred(hence the movement lines on Minato and the jutsu name in the panel of tobirama teleporting in).. Not to the attacks that follow the immediate panel after wards.


on the panels you showed we just see madara reacting to the attacks that followed the teleportation.
he never reacts to the actual teleport, just realise the event via sensing the chakra.
the only thing which is ftl about minato's teleportation is the teleportation by itself not the attack he uses right after it.  


> Exactly he realized the sword was piercing his gut the instant the sword Pierce's his gut. Thus he reacted the instant he was stabbed.
> Also Naruto does not have teleportation... He did react to Naruto shunshin though.


which is not a reaction feat,neither of them can move at that speed.


> And personal bias does not discount the evidence at hand.


>Me
>having personal bias against Nardo

i really hope you are trolling


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 28, 2014)

Butbut Madara blocked a LS punch from Tsunade


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

how is tsunade ls?


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

in what form or shape is that lightspeed?


----------



## Adamant soul (Nov 28, 2014)

Wow, Madara is FTL now. Guess I can make Lightning from FF13 FTL because she reacted to Caius teleporting right in front of her. I mean Lightning couldn't possibly have reacted to him after he teleported or anything, just like Madara couldn't possibly have reacted after Minato and Tobirama teleported but before they had a chance to attack especially since he's so much faster than they are? 

Yeah, reacting to someone AFTER they teleport isn't impressive nor does it make you FTL.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

^what the poster above says 

by that logic most of the characters in super human verses would be ftl


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 28, 2014)

exactly.
you would do everyone a favour if you stopped your useless attempts to wank nardo SSMG


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

yujiro said:


> yep yep it is also dont forget the i after j



Flash has beat a teleporter in a straight up race across a galaxy. He has also outraced time and death I believe. Also my bad about the mispell.



iwandesu said:


> on the panels you showed we just see madara reacting to the attacks that followed the teleportation.
> he never reacts to the actual teleport, just realise the event via sensing the chakra.
> the only thing which is ftl about minato's teleportation is the teleportation by itself not the attack he uses right after it.
> 
> ...



No the panels i showed have madara reacting the panel they appear using teleportation.You saying Madara reacting to only the follow up attack shows your bias.. Because the attacks occur the next panel after Madara had already reacted so that is moot. 
If he doesn't react to the actual teleportation why does he have symbols representing a reaction the panel they appear? If he knew they were coming through sensing he would not have ! And ? Reactions shots when they do show up(this is when they appear due to Minatos body is covered in movement lines indicating total body displacement and tobirama had the jutsu name in the panel he was in)

I think you have that next part confused. Being able to react to Instanteous movement does not equate to Madara having Instanteous movement himself.

It seems so. The evidence supports Madara having Instanteous or at the minimum near Instanteous reactions.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

Common mistake is they arre.diffrent versions


----------



## MysticBlade (Nov 28, 2014)

> Wasn't Joa Planet+ ? this would be quite a boost for wathever way this power up works.Quote:



Yep.



> >Very Casual.☻>Planet level+>TorikoHoly powerup,☻Batman☻Would a Bl Toriko just outrigth attain this kind of level, then ?



Toriko's not planet +, though he is capable of outputting attacks on base joa's level. it's hard to determine how strong that is,  I'll wait a little more before saying he's at that level. Though it's up there.



> Mach 30k is not enough to blitz,tho (even if it was accepted)He would need a ranged attack to kill her.and even then, it would likely end being a stalemate.



Toriko has some fairly impressive range attacks, though i see where yyou're coming from.

Forget to mention that he can only reach base joa level with red oni's arm.


----------



## Fujita (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> No the panels i showed have madara reacting the panel they appear using teleportation.



A panel is not by definition an instant of time

if it was, any reaction we see in any panel in any manga would confer "instantaneous reactions"

and that's the only way you'd be able to justify this reaction being instant, instead of after the fact

it doesn't take "instantaneous" reactions to notice that a sword has been teleported through your gut. that sort of thing tends to hurt.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 28, 2014)

So the match is about even until we see what happens to poor toriko


----------



## MysticBlade (Nov 28, 2014)

> So the match is about even until we see what happens to poor toriko



Nah, ☻kaguya☻has the advantage. Toriko needs to active devil form to launch a attack, meanwhile all☻kaguya☻needs is to bfr.


----------



## Qinglong (Nov 28, 2014)

SSMG said:


> He was able to react due to those reasons yes(and precog wouldn't help because hiriashin is not movement)... But that doesn't take any way from him actually reacting the instant/ panel the teleportation occurred.
> 
> If Madara has a !? The panel its actively getting teleported into his body then yes that is a reaction feat. You do know what reaction means right?
> The reason he couldn't move out of the way is because he got the sword teleported into his body. And he was actively moving beforehand so that point is moot.
> ...


----------



## Bruce Wayne (Nov 28, 2014)

Lightspeed Haku solo.


----------



## SSMG (Nov 28, 2014)

Fujita said:


> A panel is not by definition an instant of time
> 
> if it was, any reaction we see in any panel in any manga would confer "instantaneous reactions"
> 
> ...



Yeah I 100% agree with that notion of reacting the panel something happens doesn't insinuate instant reactions. It implies they reacted at whatever speed the thing they reacted to was appearing at or traveling at. So for example somoen in a manga panel reacts to a car before it hits them they can atleast react to the speed of said car.

But the action that is occurring for Madara's reaction feat's is an instanteous action(the instant a ftg user appears) so if Madara reacts the panel they appear in it implies an instanteous or at the minimum near instanteous reaction.

 And yeah I do agree that for the sword, he may have reacted to the pain of it and not the actual action of it teleporting.


----------



## Sir Cool Blizzard (Nov 28, 2014)

Don't know who wins....but LS Madara is legit.
The databook describes Light fang as a technique which consists of a stream of light particles and using this technique those who have six paths power can cut at the speed of light. And Naruto reacted to that casually.

術 / 仙術 - 仙法・嵐遁光牙

六道の力を得た者が光線を放
ち敵を両断する忍術。牙の様
に鋭く尖り、光速を誇る一閃
は万物を断ち、敵は光線の一
振りを防ぐことすら敵わない。

Ninjutsu / Senjutsu - Sage Art: Storm Release Light Fang

A ninjutsu used by those who gained
the six paths power, they emit a beam
of light to bisect the enemy. Like a sharp
and pointed fang, it cuts all things with
the speed of light, making it impossible
for the enemy to evade even one swing.

Not sure if it will be counted here, since there is no calc to prove anthing.

Also Kaguya is immortal right??  So she just flies launches her planet busting gudoudama(according to databook and BZ in the manga) and leaves the dimension. Or she changes the dimension to lava, acid dimension and leaves. So I think she can win this. Also her bone ash hax and gudoudama hax should be considered too. They are one shot tech for anyone regardless of their durabilities.


----------



## DarkTorrent (Nov 28, 2014)

we rarely take the databook seriously


----------



## Qinglong (Nov 28, 2014)

Never mind it contradicts itself by saying "it's impossible to evade"... and then you say right before that someone reacted to it


----------



## LineageCold (Nov 28, 2014)

Sir Cool Blizzard said:


> Don't know who wins....but LS Madara is legit.
> The databook describes Light fang as a technique which consists of a stream of light particles and using this technique those who have six paths power can cut at the speed of light. And Naruto reacted to that casually.
> 
> 
> ...



Where can I find the original sources for both of these i've highlighted (or the actual data book itself).


----------



## Red Angel (Nov 28, 2014)

ITT: Some ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) harps on about how reacting to teleporters makes you FTL

FactPile tier+ logic



DarkTorrent said:


> we rarely take the databook seriously



That and, you know, unless there's feats to back it, in Japanese media the whole "speed of light" and "lightspeed" and "faster than light" are very common figures of speech for really fast, you know, kind of like "lightning fast" is alot of the time


----------



## shade0180 (Nov 29, 2014)

> planet busting gudoudama



The manga kind of have this on panel.. She was about to do it before she got sealed,


----------



## LineageCold (Nov 29, 2014)

shade0180 said:


> *The manga kind of have this on panel*.. She was about to do it before she got sealed,



True, but more confirmation wouldn't hurt. ("Author statement >> character statement ")


----------



## Sir Cool Blizzard (Nov 29, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Where can I find the original sources for both of these i've highlighted (or the actual data book itself).



Its there in the Databook translation thread in Konoha Library.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

Toriko can also one shot her and also evade her the hax is the problem which toriko doesnt really have except an attack that hits infinite times internally and minor reality warping also his attacks are about mack 10 k +    the attack may be just a badass name but it overpowered joa and oneshotted shigematsu  and of course


----------



## Red Angel (Nov 29, 2014)

>Library

No thank you


----------



## Sir Cool Blizzard (Nov 29, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> That and, you know, unless there's feats to back it, in Japanese media the whole "speed of light" and "lightspeed" and "faster than light" are very common figures of speech for really fast, you know, kind of like "lightning fast" is alot of the time


Thats true but it says that its a *beam of light* (laser?) and it *cuts at the speed of light*. It doesn't say that its a lightspeed technique which may be a hyperbole for highspeed. 




yujiro said:


> Toriko can also one shot her and also evade her the hax is the problem which toriko doesnt really have except an attack that hits infinite times internally and minor reality warping also his attacks are about mack 10 k +    the attack may be just a badass name but it overpowered joa and oneshotted shigematsu  and of course


But the problem is that she is immortal. So you should turn her immortality off for this match. She can still fly high in the sky, change the dimension to lava or acid dimension, open a portal and leave him to burn, dissolve. 
I think if the immortality is off, it can go either way.


----------



## Red Angel (Nov 29, 2014)

Sir Cool Blizzard said:


> Semantics



Beside the fucking point, there are no feats for it being lightspeed, and it's not literal light, I think you know what that means

Anyways, with this FTL Nardo shit, maybe some rematches are overdue

Anyone else up for Round 2 of God Emperor vs Kanoha?


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

If you want to use that then i will have to use rain of laserea literally so ...also gaoh doged beams quite far from the planet but do whatever you want


----------



## Sir Cool Blizzard (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> If you want to use that then i will have to use rain of laserea literally so ...also gaoh doged beams quite far from the planet but do whatever you want



They were not dodged at point blank range. But regardless, there isn't that much of difference in speed so it must not be a problem. Although Kaguya has more advantage in the form of her hax, immortality, versatility etc.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

Yeah ok immortality off he cant really kill her like that but he has mugen kugi punch his main way to win


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

MysticBlade said:


> Nah, ☻kaguya☻has the advantage. Toriko needs to active devil form to launch a attack, meanwhile all☻kaguya☻needs is to bfr.



^ this.Toriko gets bfr'ed.


----------



## LineageCold (Nov 29, 2014)

Sir Cool Blizzard said:


> Its there in the Databook translation thread in "*Konoha Library*.



Go figure.

After looking over the translations it seems pretty legit (also coming directly out of kishi's mouth) in summary, the attack was outright stated to cut/bisect "at the speed of light" & Ashura naruto himself reacted/evaded it pretty handily 

I'm honestly not surprise, since the beginning of the "4th shinobi war" kishi has been on a mass ass-pull power increase, ( multiple country busters, planet buster/planet creator kuguya , moon creation etc)


LS "EOS" god tiers" doesn't seem far fetched or outliner to me .(not like the BOS "haku" incident)


----------



## Darth Niggatron (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> Toriko can also one shot her and also evade her the hax is the problem which toriko doesnt really have except an attack that hits infinite times internally and minor reality warping also his attacks are about mack 10 k +    the attack may be just a badass name but it overpowered joa and oneshotted shigematsu  and of course



Toriko isn't one-shotting shit. Kaguya was going to survive the destruction of her planet/dimension, and that's far above anything Toriko can output.
As to relativistic Naruto? I'm ok with it, really. It's not like this is the first time 'lightspeed' has been thrown around. And while that isn't much evidence, there really isn't much that speaks against it, either. We have Gai bending space by his sheer speed, a feat that was obviously(but scientifically unsupported) intended to be a relativistic effect.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

Mugen kugi punch look it up also toriko should be in the low 5 digits like kaguya diffrence is that hisbreactions are 10 times that without conduct of the king so good luck landing a hit


----------



## Alita (Nov 29, 2014)

LineageCold said:


> Go figure.
> 
> After looking over the translations it seems pretty legit (also coming directly out of kishi's mouth) in summary, the attack was outright stated to cut/bisect "at the speed of light" & Ashura naruto himself reacted/evaded it pretty handily
> 
> ...


Yeah, I don't see it being outlierish either for the absolute strongest characters in naruto to be at or around that speed level. Gai was doing some insanely fast shit in the 8th gate that could be argued somewhere in relativistic range at least. And naruto, sasuke, kaguya, etc. were at least equal to and likely above him speed wise. I can't think of anything that contradicts it at the least.


----------



## AgentAAA (Nov 29, 2014)

frankly I'm still against it. It's a databook. It should be treated with the same dose of salt that the DBZ daizenshuu does - that is, enough to kill you if ingested. It's very shaky evidence IMO.


----------



## Nighty the Mighty (Nov 29, 2014)

even if this is Lightspeed Naruto didn't react to the actual technique itself

based on the path of the beam all he did was see that Madara was about to fire something and punch him in the face to turn his head sideways before it fired.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

Also gais feat is idiotic and should not be regarded you can think why you-cannot put words in the aithors mouth/ its ifiotic to believe he even cared and not just put cause it sounds badass


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> even if this is Lightspeed Naruto didn't react to the actual technique itself
> 
> based on the path of the beam all he did was see that Madara was about to fire something and punch him in the face to turn his head sideways before it fired.



Naruto didn't punch him.Madara swang his head sideways.he wanted to cut Naruto in half.you can see Naruto's Onmyouton stick getting cut in half.


----------



## Black Leg Sanji (Nov 29, 2014)

Skarbrand said:


> ITT: Some ^ (not the meaning of the word "respect".) harps on about how reacting to teleporters makes you FTL
> 
> FactPile tier+ logic



Here i thought the maybe would give away muh trolling

You break my heart mate 












Oh, you're talking about SSMG 

Carry on then


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

so ssmg is known as a wanker?also can anyone tell me those green cell loking cells at my name represent?they were red yesterday


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 29, 2014)

A full Green bar means you have good rep.
a red bar means bad rep.
You can check how much rep you own in your profile options.


----------



## Source (Nov 29, 2014)

Nightbringer said:


> even if this is Lightspeed Naruto didn't react to the actual technique itself
> 
> based on the path of the beam all he did was see that Madara was about to fire something and punch him in the face to turn his head sideways before it fired.



He actually didn't punch Madara. Here's how it went:

1)Naruto attempts to hit Madara
2)Limbo blocks it
3)Madara uses the opportunity to try to use the "lightspeed" technique but Naruto dodges it.

Madara didn't turn his head because he got punched, he turned it to cut Naruto's head off with the beam. He just looks like he got punched because he's "blowing" it out of his mouth.

I don't care/don't know whether the technique is lightspeed or not (or even where this claim originates from), just pointing this out.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

ok ty iwandesu amd no naruto is not ftl except by wank and lol guidebooks....the same dragonball uses and make spc solar system lv 

5 diigt mach for mmax seems ok the match here is pretty even with a 50/50


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> ok ty iwandesu amd no naruto is not ftl except by wank and lol guidebooks....the same dragonball uses and make spc solar system lv
> 
> 5 diigt mach for mmax seems ok the match here is pretty even with a 50/50



I didn't know multiple feats from the manga are wank....And databooks are official canon material written by kishimoto. Its the word of god in this case. Authors opinion> fan fiction.

Also all kaguya needs to do is think that it and toriko gets sent to another dimension. Considering the speeds she can think at, she'll almost 100% of the time.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

ok then the whole hst gets done in by 23rd budokai goku 
wanna go that way or drop that shit right now?i can  argue mftl toriko 100 ch ago if i want to but i would like to avoid that despite the fact i can do with feats


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> ok then the whole hst gets done in by 23rd budokai goku
> wanna go that way or drop that shit right now?i can  argue mftl toriko 100 ch ago if i want to but i would like to avoid that despite the fact i can do with feats



Why are you bringing Goku into this topic?

And if you are able to present that argument I wouldn't stop ya.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

because guidebooks are not taken seriously everywhere 

if you base your arguments on guidebooks dont even present them go by feats and how the author inside the manga presented sth


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> because guidebooks are not taken seriously everywhere
> 
> if you base your arguments on guidebooks dont even present them go by feats and how the author inside the manga presented sth



Hmm I may be missing something but I don't know how believing in the guidebooks equates to that Goku soloing the hst?

But I agree with you on the second part. You have to go by feats first and foremost then supplement that with statements made in the canon sources. So in this case supplement the feats with manga and data book statements.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

no no if an author wanted to mention sth why would he mention in a databook and not his own manga

also a beam of light is a commmon trope there is that so you generally also dont accept themm

 thats why in toriko i disregard ftl at least for everyone except discples and eight kings maybe


----------



## Fujita (Nov 29, 2014)

SSMG said:


> Yeah I 100% agree with that notion of reacting the panel something happens doesn't insinuate instant reactions. It implies they reacted at whatever speed the thing they reacted to was appearing at or traveling at. So for example somoen in a manga panel reacts to a car before it hits them they can atleast react to the speed of said car.
> 
> But the action that is occurring for Madara's reaction feat's is an instanteous action(the instant a ftg user appears) so if Madara reacts the panel they appear in it implies an instanteous or at the minimum near instanteous reaction.



...it really doesn't. The panel takes as much time as all the events on the panel, but the events on the panel aren't related in any easy way like this. Since they're just static pictures, it's generally not certain exactly how quickly some thing happened relative to some other thing, and the only standard that you can actually justify is looking at the time in which some event must have happened. None of this meta stuff about panels actually matters. 

So if a guy moves before a car hits him, you get the time frame that it would have taken for the car to hit him, and assume he reacted within that time frame. Maybe he reacted in a quicker time frame, but you can't actually prove that.

And with Madara, we know that he managed to react before the guy who teleported behind him could connect his attack. (Yes, I'm stringing panels together here, but events are what's important, not the number of panels.) That's a decent feat, but it doesn't *have* to be instantaneous. The guy teleporting behind Madara and Madara then noticing that something was amiss (in some amount of time) can happen just as easily in one panel as Madara fucking over cause and effect and instantly noticing him. The difference is that the first one has actual support, while you've got no good reason to choose "instantaneous" reactions over some other number. 



> And yeah I do agree that for the sword, he may have reacted to the pain of it and not the actual action of it teleporting.



same idea with the other feats, then 

It makes more sense than instant reactions.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

^what the person above said


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> no no if an author wanted to mention sth why would he mention in a databook and not his own manga
> 
> also a beam of light is a commmon trope there is that so you generally also dont accept themm
> 
> thats why in toriko i disregard ftl at least for everyone except discples and eight kings maybe



Because that's the point of data book.. To elaborate on the data that was skimmed over in the story, due to the progression of said sory.

All visible light travels at the same speed because its composed of photons and photons travel at a fixed speed...the speed of light. So I don't know who came up with that troupe(it must not be well known its not on tvtroupes), so I wouldn't discredit a light based attacks speed due to that troupe. But a lot of things in fiction appear to be light based attacks but are not so it only works if its described as being a light based attack and not just energy beams and the like.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

By that logic spiderman would be ftl


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

speed isn't even important in this match,Kaguya should win anyway.

and for that speed thing,data books are canon material or secondary canon material.so that speed thing can thrown out for other reasons,but not because it's from data book.


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 29, 2014)

tkpirate said:


> speed isn't even important in this match,Kaguya should win anyway.
> 
> and for that speed thing,data books are canon material or secondary canon material.so that speed thing *can thrown out for other reasons*,but not because it's from data book.


The lack of supporting feats would be a good start.
regardless, kaguya bfr him. Maybe he can stalemate but not win.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

he needs one last power up and some hax why only him no hax well except mugen kugi punch but meh hax like hungry space


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

iwandesu said:


> The lack of supporting feats would be a good start.



well,a weaker character was bending space with sheer speed.but yeah that's unquantifiable.
i don't really know or care about it either.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

^about that feat....you bend space yourself


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> ^about that feat....you bend space yourself



no i don't bend space like that.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

yep you do exactly like that by just moving thats why its unquantible


----------



## tkpirate (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> yep you do exactly like that by just moving thats why its unquantible



and you're an idiot.stop replying to me.


----------



## LazyWaka (Nov 29, 2014)

DarkTorrent said:


> we rarely take the databook seriously



Yeah no. Data book statements are not thrown out because "lol data books". They hold unless contradicted, are blatantly outlier, or hyperbole.

I don't care about whether or not this gets accepted. But disregarding the data book, which is explicitly made to explain shit "just because" is not a valid counterargument.

We treat it the same as we treat all statements. Valid unless visual evidence proves otherwise.

Admittedly this sorta comes off as another Kizaru scenario. light is involved, fairly vague light speed claims are made. A fairly vague dodging of said light attack occurred. Big fucking mind screw we have here.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

i would expect the think to have been solved 5k mach would be fair imo


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

Fujita said:


> ...it really doesn't. The panel takes as much time as all the events on the panel, but the events on the panel aren't related in any easy way like this. Since they're just static pictures, it's generally not certain exactly how quickly some thing happened relative to some other thing, and the only standard that you can actually justify is looking at the time in which some event must have happened. None of this meta stuff about panels actually matters.
> 
> So if a guy moves before a car hits him, you get the time frame that it would have taken for the car to hit him, and assume he reacted within that time frame. Maybe he reacted in a quicker time frame, but you can't actually prove that.
> 
> ...



They are just static pictures exactly. You said it yourself they are limited to the time the event actually happened. Minato was appearing during the panel Madara reacted to him in. So if someone is reacting while an Instanteous action is occurring the panel its happening it implies its an Instanteous reaction. If it took some time for the reaction to occur after the Instanteous action occurred it wouldn't occur within the same static timeframe(panel) it'd occur the next panel or after some indication that time has passed(same person being in multiple positions in one panel). We have no indication any time passed for Madara reacting to Tobirama(since the name of the jutsu appeared the panel Madara reacted) and for Minato(since he had the motion lines indicating total body displacement, is his teleportation). Now some panels have mutlpile things occurring after another which are usually indicated by motion lines of an object moving. But the only motion lines in the feats I'm referring to are on Minato when he is appearing after using teleportation. Since his action is instant the lines indicate that is in fact the instant he appears and not some short time after.

And exactly so for the car if it accelerated to a certain speed in one panel and someone reacted in that same panel we can say he can react to the speed of the car at whatever the given distance was.But if it was spread out through multiple given shots then we can say they can react after such and such time. 

There's more to support my stance besides these feats themselves. Naruto reacted and dodged an attack that was described to travel at light speed at point blank range. That puts him at FTL reactions and Madaras in his speed tier.


And about the sword Madara never actually showed any signs of pain at all from that sword attack so he may or may not have responded to the pain stimuli or from his eyesight/reaction stimuli.


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> yep you do exactly like that by just moving thats why its unquantible



Lol what? So before I touch anything it bends around my hand and snaps? No it doesn't.  There may be a small devitation on the atomic level sure.. But thats it. And the object that Guy snapped with his speed is an near unbreakable object that can only be harmed using senjutsu .


----------



## ZenithXAbyss (Nov 29, 2014)

Waka, put a leash on your dogs. Smh.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

Lol what? So before I touch anything it bends around my hand and snaps? No it doesn't. There may be a small devitation on the atomic level sure.. But thats it. And the object that Guy snapped with his speed is an near unbreakable object that can only be harmed using senjutsu .  yeah that just guy did at a much larger extent still not relativistic exceot if you want to use relativity 

also gai is the fastest in the series prob


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

@zenith reading too hard for ya m8?



yujiro said:


> Lol what? So before I touch anything it bends around my hand and snaps? No it doesn't. There may be a small devitation on the atomic level sure.. But thats it. And the object that Guy snapped with his speed is an near unbreakable object that can only be harmed using senjutsu .  yeah that just guy did at a much larger extent still not relativistic exceot if you want to use relativity
> 
> also gai is the fastest in the series prob



 I'm just addressing your assertion that we do what Guy did all the time.. No we don't not even close.. We don't do one billionth of what guy did, probably not even a trillionth of that level, to normal materials let alone to a near unbreakable material.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

he couldnt just break them with air pressure right/?


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> he couldnt just break them with air pressure right/?



Its possible. But how fast would a human need to go to produce said air pressure to break a near unbreakable object? Idk myself but it'd be fast.


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

there is nothing unbreakable....especially when he just smashed it with pure strenght 

its not a term than can be used easily against other fictions 

for example toriko can break it most likely quite easily like with captain america shield 

forgot exact material but its though as nearly impossible to break still any herald can easily do it and so can magneto

see why


----------



## DarkTorrent (Nov 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Yeah no. Data book statements are not thrown out because "lol data books". They hold unless contradicted, are blatantly outlier, or hyperbole.
> 
> I don't care about whether or not this gets accepted. But disregarding the data book, which is explicitly made to explain shit "just because" is not a valid counterargument.
> 
> We treat it the same as we treat all statements. Valid unless visual evidence proves otherwise.



that is what I'm saying?

we rarely take the databook seriously because usually most of it is full of hyperboles, and those rare times that we do take it seriously are when it's not a hyperbole and actually gets supported by the manga itself

I've never even implied that databook gets thrown out all together

geez, Waka


----------



## Sablés (Nov 29, 2014)

ugotrektm8


----------



## Totally not a cat (Nov 29, 2014)

Is this what cancer is like? Man, I really  miss the cancerdome, at least I could stay away from it when it was all concentrated in one horrible, obscure pit


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Nov 29, 2014)

this is a taste of what it was like when Phenomenol was running around

feels bad, man


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

am i suposed to be phenomenol?also i have heard some stories


----------



## SSMG (Nov 29, 2014)

yujiro said:


> there is nothing unbreakable....especially when he just smashed it with pure strenght
> 
> its not a term than can be used easily against other fictions
> 
> ...



That's why I keep saying nearly unbreakable


----------



## Kazu (Nov 29, 2014)

Why is this thread still going?


----------



## Iwandesu (Nov 29, 2014)

Nah, SSMG would.
@kazu no reason anymore.
Someone please call UD .


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

who is ud ....for now the odds lean to to kaguya or best possibility a tie from what i have concluded


----------



## Toaa (Nov 29, 2014)

now im confused what belongs to the cancerdome?


----------



## LineageCold (Nov 29, 2014)

LazyWaka said:


> Admittedly this sorta comes off as another *Kizaru scenario. light is involved, fairly vague light speed claims are made. A fairly vague* dodging of said light attack occurred. Big fucking mind screw we have here.



Many folks here accept kizaru as "LS" (using his mirror travel technique ). his other statements of him being "LS" for casual movement speed has been contradicted/outliner a few times (the same goes with characters like haku, kuma etc)

There isn't really a contradiction/outliner going on with naruto's case (EOS, god power ups/final battle), honestly i've seen many other vague statements been accepted before (through characters statements or speculation). but for this case, we have kishi outright stating that "in summary" that the beam of light wielded by the six path user can bisect/cut "at the speed of light" 


I personally myself don't care if it's accepted, but there isn't nothing thats contradicting it as well. 



*Spoiler*: __ 



But IMO, I myself do believe its a legit "LS" feat.


----------



## Ultimate Deathsaurer (Nov 29, 2014)

Oh good databook debate


----------

