# Itachi vs. Nagato



## Rocky (May 24, 2013)

I'm aware this has been done, but I want to see where people believe these two stand at this point.

Location: An open, grassy field. There is a water source.
Distance: 25m
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Koto Crow, Gedo Mazo, Pein Bodies.



*Spoiler*: _Bonus_ 



Location: A very large, thick forest. Think "Forest of Death", but just expanded massively.
Distance: 25m apart. There is LOS.
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Full
Restrictions: Koto Crow, Gedo Mazo, Pein Bodies.





In both scenarios Itachi and Nagato are alive and without their respective drawbacks. Nagato can move at the pace of Tendo.


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## DaVizWiz (May 24, 2013)

Shitstorm keeps shitting on.


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## Jagger (May 24, 2013)

Oh boy, Rocky. What have you done?!

Itachi gets outclassed and outlasted by Nagato, simple as that.


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## Luftwaffles (May 24, 2013)

Nagato has no counter to Tsukuyomi.
And by manga portrayal and author favoritism, Itachi would never lose vs Nagato.


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## eyeknockout (May 24, 2013)

why isn't a tie an option? because that's what i'll go with


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## Jagger (May 24, 2013)

Itachi does have the tools to beat Nagato, but his chances are extremely slim and it will uphill battle for him. Stamina and firepower are probably the two biggest reasons of Nagato's victory.


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## crisler (May 24, 2013)

I always stick with the idea that if someone wants to defeat nagato he either

- should be able to defeat CT alone
- or defeat nagato before he casts CT

Itachi can't defeat CT alone, but his fighting style and arsenals suggests that he's one of the few that may end the battle before nagato decides to use CT.

While NAgato overall has superior ninjutsu, itachis' MS are still fatal to nagato...he was caught by amaterasu, susanoo proved useful against nagato. Whether nagatos' rinnegan has genjutsu resistance like ms or sharingan is still in mystery..

If the two were fighting as edos I would give this to itachi. 

If the two were fighting as living form then I would give this to nagato.


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## Thunder (May 24, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Nagato has no counter to Tsukuyomi.
> And by manga portrayal and author favoritism, Itachi would never lose vs Nagato.



Depending on your interpretation crippled Edo Nagato and Edo Itachi were portrayed as equals. They're in the same tier in my eyes, but I'd say rejuvenated Nagato is stronger than any incarnation of Itachi. 

If we go by manga portrayal and author favoritism _only _then yeah_,_ it's sort of diffcult to envision Itachi looking bad. But a line needs to be drawn somewhere.


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## Vice (May 25, 2013)

The manga makes it perfectly clear, come on. It was 3 vs. 1.


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## Grimm6Jack (May 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Nagato has no counter to Tsukuyomi.
> And by manga portrayal and author favoritism, Itachi would never lose vs Nagato.



... What Vice said.


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## Thdyingbreed (May 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Nagato has no counter to Tsukuyomi.
> And by manga portrayal and author favoritism, Itachi would never lose vs Nagato.


He has the Rinnegan which is the highest form of the Sharigan which should grant him some degree of immunity and Itachi has no counter for Chibaku tensei.


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## Bkprince33 (May 25, 2013)

Making Nagato move at the pace of tendo, gives him a pretty big advantage, genjutsu is still a mystery, and we don't know what would happened if itachi attempted to destroy ct as soon as its formed.


I personally view this match as a 50/50 


I actually believe itachi has a better chance at beating Nagato  but has slimmer chances against the six paths.


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## Luftwaffles (May 25, 2013)

Grimm6Jack said:


> ... What Vice said.





Thdyingbreed said:


> He has the Rinnegan which is the highest form of the Sharigan which should grant him some degree of immunity and Itachi has no counter for Chibaku tensei.



I based my opinion on how Kishimoto would write it, not how my mind would play it out.


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## Bonly (May 25, 2013)

I'd say Nagato would win more times then not. Nagato can outlast Itachi and with Itachi's arsenal, he isn't likely to pull out the win.


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## Empathy (May 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> Nagato has no counter to Tsukuyomi.
> And by manga portrayal and author favoritism, Itachi would never lose vs Nagato.



It's up to you if you think Nagato's evolved sharingan eyes and distant relation to Uchiha (Uzumaki are related to the Senju, and also Uchiha by transitive extension) are enough to compensate for Itachi's, '_same eyes and lineage as me_' prerequisites. If you don't, then that still shouldn't condemn Nagato to an automatic _Tsukuyomi_ downfall. Nagato's a sensor with multiple sets of linked eyeballs; he's especially well suited to avoid looking at Itachi's sharingan. As for Itachi winning through portrayal and favoritism, that's unsubstantiated. Nagato was given doujutsu two levels above Itachi, made the leader of the organization Itachi was part of, and fought Itachi with two characters of his tier backing him. 

No portrayal supports Itachi being above Nagato. On an individual level Edo Nagato beat Itachi before he got to him with the _Totsuka_, when he caught him with _Chibaku Tensei_ (a jutsu he couldn't stop on his own). Author favoritism is an especially poor cop-out given Kishimoto stated Deidara was his favorite reincarnated shinobi and he had him immediately beaten by Sai. As far as favoritism goes, he had Kabuto chop Itachi right in half. To presume the author would forsake credibility of his story due to personal subjectivity is just absurd. If he truly wanted to do so, then he wouldn't have given Itachi weaker abilities and had Itachi face him with the backing of the two strongest jinchuuriki. He wouldn't need to resort to such dubious methods when he could've just made Itachi strong enough to face him by himself in the first place.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2013)

Nagato wins obviously. 
the only thing Itachi has is his sword to defeat Nagato
and since Nagato can move itachi cant hit him, he only does that to those
who can't move or those who they let him hit them, if that makes any sense. @.@


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## Luftwaffles (May 25, 2013)

Empathy said:


> It's up to you if you think Nagato's evolved sharingan eyes and distant relation to Uchiha (Uzumaki are related to the Senju, and also Uchiha by transitive extension) are enough to compensate for Itachi's, '_same eyes and lineage as me_' prerequisites. If you don't, then that still shouldn't condemn Nagato to an automatic _Tsukuyomi_ downfall. Nagato's a sensor with multiple sets of linked eyeballs; he's especially well suited to avoid looking at Itachi's sharingan. As for Itachi winning through portrayal and favoritism, that's unsubstantiated. Nagato was given doujutsu two levels above Itachi, made the leader of the organization Itachi was part of, and fought Itachi with two characters of his tier backing him.
> 
> No portrayal supports Itachi being above Nagato. On an individual level Edo Nagato beat Itachi before he got to him with the _Totsuka_, when he caught him with _Chibaku Tensei_ (a jutsu he couldn't stop on his own). Author favoritism is an especially poor cop-out given Kishimoto stated Deidara was his favorite reincarnated shinobi and he had him immediately beaten by Sai. As far as favoritism goes, he had Kabuto chop Itachi right in half. To presume the author would forsake credibility of his story due to personal subjectivity is just absurd. If he truly wanted to do so, then he wouldn't have given Itachi weaker abilities and had Itachi face him with the backing of the two strongest jinchuuriki. He wouldn't need to resort to such dubious methods when he could've just made Itachi strong enough to face him by himself in the first place.


Too long, didn't read. Sorry 
Anyways, didn't Kishimoto have Nagato basically one-shot by Itachi in the worst way possible via smoke feint?

EDIT: This caught my attention, *No portrayal supports Itachi being above Nagato.*
Will give my response tomorrow.


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## Jagger (May 25, 2013)

Being helped by both KM Naruto and Bee supports such fact, DES?

Even if Nagato and Itachi are not in a completely different tiers, Nagato is still above him. He's either the bottom of the Top Tier Ninja like Naruto, Hashirama or Madara or at the top of the one after the top tier.


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## LostSelf (May 25, 2013)

Nagato wins.

It's more likely that Itachi is hit by a powerful Shinra Tensei, wich he can't know when it's going to be used and can't dodge it than Nagato being hit by Totsuka, Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu, three jutsus he can sense and know when they are going to be used.

Adding that Nagato clearly outclasses him in stamina, on top of that his jutsus are way less taxing than Itachi's, he can counter most of them without much troubles while Itachi, to take down Nagato's need MS makes Nagato a walking (how Ironic) counter to Itachi.

And i'd love to see how Itachi has been protrayed superior to Nagato when everything in the manga states a diferent thing. And even in Kishi's eyes, defeating Nagato is not a given.

Why? If Itachi was protrayed superior to Nagato AND in Kishi's eyes Itachi would beat him, he would've done so and would've made Itachi tell Naruto and Bee to go look for Madara while he fought Nagato. Something that didn't happen. In Kishi's eyes it took Three top tiers to take down an orgasmic Kabuto who was enjoying Nagato's amazing firepower and didn't even know about his sensing abilities.

As much as i've seen, Nagato is protrayed above Itachi in both, Manga and Kishi's eyes.

Unless we think that Kishi would waste an oportunity to make Itachi look amazing even when Itachi is above Nagato by himself. Of course not.


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## Joakim3 (May 25, 2013)

Well seeing the Minato vs. Itachi/Nagato debate has ended, we as the community might as well end this one 

Nagato with full knowledge steamrolls. He's more the reflexive enough to casually defend against _Amaterasu_ via _Fujutsu Kuyin_, with Tendo's speed/ivasion feats... Totsuka is *never* landing while genjustu is utterly irrelevant when your opponent has 2 ways of sensing and can have 10+ different fields of vision.... essentially allowing him to fight "blind"

.....and Nagato just happens to be able to casualty nuke Itachi off the map with repetative _Laser Explosion_ & boss sized ST or just one shot with CST/CT on whim (or both to simply prove a point)

And this doesn't even take account the two+ tier stamina gap


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## FlamingRain (May 25, 2013)

Nagato's Shinra Tensei sends Susano'o flying so far the fall kills Itachi.


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## Shattering (May 25, 2013)

This

+

+


= Nagato wins

Haha fuck logic!


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## tanman (May 25, 2013)

I consider Edo Itachi to be on the same level as Rejuvenated Nagato. i would give it to Nagato more times than not when Itachi is alive. Make no mistake, though, it would be an incredibly difficult fight. Genjutsu is a constant threat that truly opens up the possibility of an Itachi victory. He has an effective counter to everyone of Nagato's jutsus, but stamina will like prove to be rub when he's not an Edo.

EDIT:
"Itachi, he's clearly on another level from the others. Not even Edo Tensei can hold him." - I forgot about that one.


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## Luftwaffles (May 25, 2013)

I mean, Izanami isn't even restricted


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Neither is Chibaku Tensei


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## Luftwaffles (May 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Neither is Chibaku Tensei


So? Izanami > Chibaku Tensei.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Not even slightly.


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Empathy said:


> > It's up to you if you think Nagato's evolved sharingan eyes and distant relation to Uchiha (Uzumaki are related to the Senju, and also Uchiha by transitive extension) are enough to compensate for Itachi's, '_same eyes and lineage as me_' prerequisites.
> 
> 
> Not a hint to suggest this as you also need equal genjutsu skill, and Nagato doesn't have Uchiha blood: nor can he he revert back to EMS.
> ...


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## Joakim3 (May 25, 2013)

Shattering said:


> This
> +



Because controlled Edo's can't attack other Edo's?

Because Nagato didn't sense _Amaterasu_, warn Killer B & RM Naruto and still have time save Itachi from having his head harpooned by a Raiton Sword ....all before Itachi fired the former

Yet he can't ST Itachi to the next mountain range or simply simply activate _Fujutsu Kuyin_ the second he senses it? 



Shattering said:


> +



Becuase Nagato wasn't fighting Killer B & RM Naruto while being controlled by Kabuto who just sow happened to forgot about Itachi's presence

Becuase Nagato _could_ sense due to ^ above reasons?

Becuase Nagato is completely mobile in this scenario, unlike the one you posted?



Shattering said:


> = Nagato wins



Becuase Itachi can also use Bijudama & FRS right to destroy CT?

Because Nagato can't also use CST right?

= Nagato winning



Shattering said:


> Haha fuck logic!



Haha fuck reading comprehension!


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## Trojan (May 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> I mean, Izanami isn't even restricted



Does it even work?
Nagato did not try to be someone else. Even IF Itachi did it,
it will NOT work.


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## Joakim3 (May 25, 2013)

Deus ex Shinobi said:


> I mean, Izanami isn't even restricted



Which does what? 

Nagato knew who he was, a lunatic god trying to bring peace (and due to his lack of knowledge on how he got his eyes, it was 100% genuine)

And IC Edo Nagato wasn't (or at least on the surface) the homocidal, loose canon of a character he was 200 chapters ago


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Which does what?
> 
> Nagato knew who he was, a lunatic god trying to bring peace (and due to his lack of knowledge on how he got his eyes, it was 100% genuine)
> 
> And IC Edo Nagato wasn't (or at least on the surface) the homocidal, loose canon of a character he was 200 chapters ago



Why don't yo understand that a characters mind frame has nothing to do with Izanami's effectivness? Izanagi changes reality, and Izanami decides it that is all. The mindframe of the character comes in when they reject the reality put forth/the vents in the loop. But even if they accept they still are subject to the fate decided by the loop.

Example: Izanagi user uses Izanagi, Uchiha B uses Izanami to decide Uchiha's A's changed fate, and is countered. 

Also it is kinda hard without knowledge on the technique to figure out what the fuck is going on. If you were geting put through a loop groundhog day style, I highly doubt the first move is to simply go "Maybe if I accept my opponent's decided fate, I can go back to square one and fight again!.

Kabuto a master at feats of intelligence and jutsu knowledge fell victim to this and couldn't figure out what was happening to him despite the blatent reality warping.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Even Itachi himself admitted Izanami isn't very useful in battle.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Why don't yo understand that a characters mind frame has nothing to do with Izanami's effectivness? Izanagi changes reality, and Izanami decides it that is all. The mindframe of the character comes in when they reject the reality put forth/the vents in the loop. But even if they accept they still are subject to the fate decided by the loop.
> 
> Example: Izanagi user uses Izanagi, Uchiha B uses Izanami to decide Uchiha's A's changed fate, and is countered.
> 
> ...



yesterday I finished reading volume #61 from Viz translation. Itachi clearly said to Kabuto to
stop trying to be someone else if he want to unlock the loop.  and he repeatedly told him to
stop trying to be Oro! 

Nagato did not try any of these! so the Izanami wont work in him. that IF Itachi was able to do it
because he clearly said it is not for battles. @.@


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## Jak N Blak (May 25, 2013)

Itachi can win but the circumstances needed to be in his favor, even if its just by 1%. If its a balanced playing field, he's going down 100% of the time.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 25, 2013)

Nagato wins decisively. Anyone who believes otherwise is in denial or trolling.


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Even Itachi himself admitted Izanami isn't very useful in battle.



Yeah ok and go on and say the rest: "Izanami isn't very useful in battle because of the prep time involved". It's quite obvious via the effects and power of the jutsu that it is useful once casted. Hence it being the ultimate genjutsu that warps reality.



TorJaN said:


> yesterday I finished reading volume #61 from Viz translation. Itachi clearly said to Kabuto to
> stop trying to be someone else if he want to unlock the loop.  and he repeatedly told him to
> stop trying to be Oro!
> 
> ...


The jutsu is circumstantial to the fate the caster is trying to decide. Of course every Uchiha in the past that abused Izanagi wasn't a carbon copy of Kabuto' and his problems, but it was used to stop them from abusing their MS powers and the technique altogether, so once the person using Izanagi would try and escape death/injury or a seal, he would be looped in until he accepted the fate the caster has decided, if done correctly it effectively leaves the target with 0 options barring getting hit.


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## Trojan (May 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> The jutsu is circumstantial to the fate the caster is trying to decide. Of course every Uchiha in the past that abused Izanagi wasn't a carbon copy of Kabuto' and his problems, but it was used to stop them from abusing their MS powers and the technique altogether, so once the person using Izanagi would try and escape death/injury or a seal, he would be looped in until he accepted the fate the caster has decided, if done correctly it effectively leaves the target with 0 options barring getting hit.



Does not change anything. Nagato also does nor use Izanagi, so Itachi's jutsu still wont work!


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

TorJaN said:


> Does not change anything. Nagato also does nor use Izanagi, so Itachi's jutsu still wont work!



You aren't understanding the point, that it changes reality in any situation. Just like Izanagi can be used in a dire straight situation, so can izanami. Kabuto wasn't using Izanagi and still got caught in the loop. As I said it is a genjutsu so as long as the caster has something he wants to decide the fate of( a link of events) he can ultimately do so warping reality around the opponent, and forcing them to accept to change the outcome, and not remain a statue.


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Yeah ok and go on and say the rest: "Izanami isn't very useful in battle because of the prep time involved". It's quite obvious via the effects and power of the jutsu that it is useful once casted. Hence it being the ultimate genjutsu that warps reality.




Obviously.

The effects of the Genjutsu are of course powerful, but its preparation is the most inconvenient, risky, dangerous process we've seen for _any_ in-battle Jutsu thus far. Futhermore, Itachi has absolutely no idea if Nagato fits the prerequisites for actually falling into the loop. _I_ certainly don't think Nagato has trouble "accepting his fate".

Itachi told us the Jutsu isn't very applicable in battle; that is a Manga statement. You cannot argue the point. The reasons he attempted the Jutsu on Kabuto do not apply in any way to Nagato. Itachi is not an immortal Edo Zombie, Itachi has no back up, Itachi doesn't need to capture Nagato, and Itachi isn't sure the Jutsu will even work in this case as Nagato is nothing like Kabuto. Itachi attempting here would not only be incredibly out of character, but flat out stupid.


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Obviously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Izanami was devised to counter Izanagi.

Izanagi is used to change one's fate.

Nagato doesn't try to change his fate.

Izanami will not work.

Itachi wouldn't try it anyway.

This is not a difficult concept.


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## Jagger (May 25, 2013)

Shattering said:


> This
> 
> +
> 
> ...


"He's a different level from others". I think someone forgot about Edo Madara, obviously. The only reason why Kabuto said that was because Itachi planned beforehand the whole crow thingy and the fact he escaped from ET was an accident that should have never happened in the first place. It's not like Itachi said "Don't worry, I'll come back and you'll release me, Naruto". Itachi escaped thanks to outside factors, not in his own like Madara or Hashirama.

Nagato was being distracted and wasn't paying attention to Itachi, why do you think he got so close to Nagato?

Wow, because an YNM can easily destroy Chibaku Tensei, right? 

Fuck dat logic.


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Nagato with that full knowledge on Izanami and its effects, darn I forgot.

 Izanami was used to incapacitate Kabuto more than it was to try and change them. Before Itachi was told that by Kabuto he was ready to straight up merk him.

If worse come to worse Itachi would use it just like Obito used Izanagi to escape certain death. Just because Izanami was created to counter Izanagi doesn't mean it isn't applicable to other uses.

Itachi can capitalize on Nagato's initial confusion of what is going on.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 25, 2013)

For those that claim Izanami wouldn't be fucking useless in this battle, doesn't Itachi need time to prep it for quite some time?


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## Rocky (May 25, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> If worse come to worse Itachi would use it just like Obito used Izanagi to escape certain death.




Except...Izanami has an extensive preparation process while Izanagi does not.


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## Dr. White (May 25, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Except...Izanami has an extensive preparation process while Izanagi does not.



I understand this, which is why Itachi's knowledge comes in handy here as he already knows Nagato got dat arsenal, and he knows about double vision and CT. His only choice really is a rouge Susano, or setting up Izanami similar to the way Kabuto did.

Kakashi was able to fend himself from 2 Pein bodies with double vision and clone feint them. Itachi has clone feinted a master sensor in Kabuto, and did it right before Sasuke's eyes. Like in Kakashi's situation he has a clone jutsu(clone explosion)that can block LOS and let him follow up with an attack. 

I'm not saying Itachi wins here, it is not a stomp and it would be an extremely difficult match either way. But Izanami is a viable option for Itachi especially considering the strategy making ability gap, speed gap, the intellegience/insight gap, and Itachi use of clone feints.


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## Rain (May 26, 2013)

i like how all the people who voted for Itachi here are all top tier NBD posters who always use logic, while most of the Nagato-voters (exceptions are Empathy and TheIronMan) are mindless wankers and haters. 

Itachi wins via Tsukuyomi or Totsuka blitz, since Nagato has shown no counter for either while Itachi can counter CT with Amaterasu which penetrated frog wall or concentrated Yasaka Magatama spam.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 26, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Itachi does have the tools to beat Nagato, but his chances are extremely slim and it will uphill battle for him. Stamina and firepower are probably the two biggest reasons of Nagato's victory.



Simple answer and only answer needed as to why Itachi wouldn't be able to beat someone in Naruto. With all 3M.S Jutsus, Totsuka, and Yama he's Epic, but Nagato is even more Epic and can counter all mentioned in Itachi's arsenal except Tsukyomi.....

Tsukyomi is kinda Itachi's only clean cut game ender in this battle. But still Nagato overpowers Itachi with Summons,Preta Path countering every ninjutsus, human path owns in tajitsu,followed by soul absorption,chakra drain.....it's 9:1 In Nagato's favor


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## narut0ninjafan (May 26, 2013)

Rain said:


> i like how all the people who voted for Itachi here are all top tier NBD posters who always use logic, while most of the Nagato-voters (exceptions are Empathy and TheIronMan) are mindless wankers and haters.
> 
> Itachi wins via Tsukuyomi or Totsuka blitz, since Nagato has shown no counter for either while Itachi can counter CT with Amaterasu which penetrated frog wall or concentrated Yasaka Magatama spam.



I like how you make sweeping generalisations about who are mindless wankers, then go on to spew some of the most illogical and mindless Itachi wank ever. It's quite telling, really.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 26, 2013)

Nagato has too many advantages for Itachi to really challenge him. 

First he's got all Six Paths in one body, that automatically means a powerful Shinra Tensei could be used at any point without Itachi ever anticipating it. Itachi would never anticipate it because he'll be having to deal with other things such as the projectiles Nagato can use with the Demon Realm, or the summons derived from the Animal Realm. 

Second, Itachi's disadvantage is too great. Not only do the Human, Hell, God and Demon Realms discourage close combat, but the Preta Path itself will encourage it. Seeing as the Preta Path alone nullifies Itachi's Ninjutsu, completely. So automatically Itachi's options are limited. 
Genjutsu won't be too helpful because [a] Nagato knows about Itachi's Genjutsu prowess and * Nagato can rely on various forms of sensing (rain and chakra sensing) alongside shared vision to compensate for not looking at Itachi.

Lastly Nagato has a whole bunch of Ninjutsu he can use to supplement his Rinnegan jutsu, or to counter any elemental jutsu Itachi has. Even using pretty fast Shunshin or efficient substitutions etc. It may seem that this doesn't add much, but it does certainly mean a lot when a ninja around Itachi's level (Jiraiya) immediately decided to take the fight seriously at the mere thought of Nagato using these types of jutsu whilst commenting on his proficiency with them. 

----------------------------------------------

On a side note: Izanami is not a great argument to use on anyone whose not an Izanagi user. The reason being that we don't quite understand how non-Izanagi users will respond to it. For example, we know Nagato will have to get out. However we know Kabuto was trapped on the basis that he believed all the Edo Tensei shinobi's power were representatives of his power (beyond just him summoning them)... on what basis will Nagato be trapped?

Nagato doesn't seem to be warped (with how he saw things) like how Kabuto was. If this is the case Izanami will be a wasted jutsu. That and it'll take long to set up, time Itachi is unlikely to have. If Itachi sets the criteria, then it has some ground. However you'd then need to prove said criteria has grounds to work. 

Overall, Izanami really doesn't seem to have any standing in the debate. Unless the OP specifically states that it'll work by just recording events and getting exposed to the same sensation that started the illusion. At least, that's what I'd do if I wanted Izanami to be considered in the debate; until we learn more about it.*


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

Okay......


_Background Information_​

With Manga knowledge, they know mostly everything about each other thanks to their battle as reanimated Shinobi. Nagato used all of his Rinnegan abilities at least once, and Itachi seemed to have some prior knowledge when he countered Shared Vision out of the blue. The only thing Itachi has not witnessed would be the various Ninjutsu Nagato can use with his mastery over the 5 elements. Since we haven't seen them, I'm just going to guess they aren't potent enough to be significant in a battle against someone of Itachi's caliber.

Nagato knows off all 3 Mangekyou techniques. Since he knew of Amaterasu, I'm assuming he also knows of Tsukuyomi. Even if Itachi kept Susano'o a secret while he was part of the Akatsuki, Nagato saw it during the fight. Nagato also saw Itachi's clone Ninjutsu, as well as his Katon and weapon tricks. Nagato doesn't know of Suiton or Izanami, but neither are worth noting (I'll get to it later).

The location favors Nagato, as it's just an open field. Itachi relies on more subtle tricks and feints, but there's nothing for Itachi to hide behind here. Nagato relies more on sheer power, so an open are is favorable. I'm not saying Itachi can't do the brute force thing, but Nagato's juts much better at it.


_Battlefield Control_​
I'm sure we can all admit that the field is ultimately Nagato's. His ability to summon creatures that can' t be "lol Sharingan'd" is really valuable against someone like Itachi. Without the limitless Chakra and Edo body produces, Itachi's can't afford to go Mangekyou happy. Unfortunately, he has no choice. He can try and target vulnerable spots with weapons, but with Nagato's focus dedicated specifically to Itachi, Nagato can defend them with the various abilities of the Rinnegan. That means he ether defends with Susano'o, kills with Amaterasu, or runs for his life....constantly.

Speaking of Susano'o, Itachi will need it, at all times, to avoid being made Nagato's plaything by the Deva path's abilities. Itachi will accomplish nothing if he's being flung across battlefields and slammed into the shit by gravity waves. All of this MS use is going to take a toll on Itachi's mediocre Chakra reserves, while it barley puts a dent in Nagato's.


_Susano'o~BT_​
While Itachi is armored up in Susano'o, he an untouchable force for the most part. However, Bansho Tennin is bad news for Itachi. When a user is removed from Susano'o, the Chakra construct _doesn't follow_. If Itachi's yanked from Susano'o and brought towards Nagato, his only options are to attempt Genjutsu (which Nagato knows to avoid) or to throw some Kunai. Nagato on the other hand, can use the abilities of Shurado to blow Itachi to smithereens. Some might say Amaterasu would be an option, but Nagato's shown he can sense when it's coming. He can just double BT a giant rock and Itachi (like he did Naruto), which would probably block line of sight and cause some major problems since Itachi's Susano'o (his only other method of effective defense) is still sitting back where he was ripped from it.

Nagato can avoid Susanoo's attacks to an extent now that he's mobile. He can levitate out of it's range, push it back with gravity, outlast it, attempt to crush it, ect ect. He has options. There's a possibly that Nagato's Chao Shinra Tensei could even collapse Susano'o, like it did an entire village.  


_Miscellaneous Jutsu, Genjutsu, & Izanami_​
All of Itachi's Fire & Water Ninjutsu are neutralized by Preta's abilities. Itachi's clone's could provide feints, but I'm unsure how effective that would be. Shared Vision and sensing make Nagato pretty much all seeing. Itachi can try and counter shared vision as he did in the Manga, but with Nagato himself not focused on Nardo & Bee, that becomes a much more difficult task.

Shared Vision is a great way to avoid ocular Genjutsu, as is sensing. Now of course, If Itachi can force Nagato into a Genjutsu, it becomes a Rinnegan vs. Genjutsu debate which is up to interpretation. Because of the scale Nagato fights on though, plus the aforementioned reasons, I just highly doubt Genjutsu is going to be a large issue here.

Izanami has no business here. Itachi won't even use it, as he himself doesn't think it's applicable in battle. It's preparation is way too risky, and would result in Itachi fucking up and dying before it actually succeeded. Even if you ignore those two points, it's questionable if the Jutsu would even have an effect on Nagato.


_____________


_Verdict_​
I haven't brought up Chibaku Tensei yet. That Justu, is successfully executed, kills Itachi period. There was a large indication that Itachi was unable to counter the thing by himself, and unfortunately he's by himself. Itachi could attempt to stop Nagato from actually using the Jutsu, and that's possible I suppose, but if it get's used Itachi dies no questions asked.

Other than that, Itachi's style just doesn't cut it against Nagato. Sure, it's Itachi, so he could get lucky and pull something off. Under most circumstances though, Itachi's going down. Nagato has overwhelming firepower and numbers, which forces Itachi to pull out his trump right off the bat. Itachi was portrayed as inferior when it was shown that a team effort was required to defeat Nagato once and for all. Itachi can keep up, but I don't think he has what it takes to get the job done most of the time.

Verdict: Nagato 9/10 times.


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## IchLiebe (May 26, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Ok? They are great posters who deserve recognition, but you are just making an appeal to authority right now instead of actually attacking the arguments.



Attacking the argument that only quality posters voted for Itachi. I don't give a shit about appealing to anyone.



> -Lol IchLiebe you are really not in a position to be demeaning others given your past post.



And that would be what exactly?



> They are not a nuch of wankers lol...
> -Meuruem - Quality Poster.
> -Alex Payne - Quality poster



From what I've seen they are.



> -Musashi - Quality Poster as far as I've seen.



Know what you're talking about. doesn't even have one fucking post.



> -Narutoish- I think he is new but I've never seen him be llogical or bias.



He's an Itachifan. He goes for him in every thread. I don't think I've ever seen him go against Itachi. I think he's even in the Itachi fanclub.



> -Rain - He can be bias towards Itachi, but he stil brings decent arguments.



Read his post in thread. I don't think anything decent is coming from him.



> -Shattering- See above



LOLOLOL Have you seen this guy post. He said Itachi's susanoo would get through the juubi's bijuudama. THE GODDAMN JUUBI'S.



> Lol Koenmoes just likes to grind the gears of everyone not pro Itachi, and is a pretty funny guy. But I've seen him switch off the funny, and post some great arguments.



Itachi fan like the others.



> Personally I would give Nagato the nod here, but Itachi gives him a run for his money, and possibly even takes the Dub.



Well you are an intellectual poster with no hidden Itachifan motives. I mean really, it's not like you haven't tried to "punish the haters of the king", O WAIT A GODDAMN SECOND.... Don't even fucking try anymore, it's embarrassing.

And let me give you a hint on quoting because it's pissing me off.

It will say something like this when you quote my post



IchLiebe said:


> Now you don't have to put anything infont of the person's text's or whatever you do. Just reply and then end it with the /quote and tags around it. The when you go to quote another portion of the post do this.
> 
> 
> 
> > words here [/quote tags.


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## Final Jutsu (May 26, 2013)

Nagato wins.  

Tsukiyomi:  Countered by shared vision.  Nagato is also a sensor.  We also saw that Nagato placed genjutsu barriers in his Pain bodies.  It's possible he has the same thing.  Not to mention, Rinnegan being the highest form of Sharingan heavily implies he can counter it, or resist it.

Amaterasu:  Nagato is able to sense this as he did in the manga.  He can counter it with a shinra tensei, or potentially absorb it with preta path.


Susanoo:  Nagato is in full control of his body this time.  Kabuto did not know he was a sensor.  So, due to this I see Nagato avoiding any Totsuka strike.  Add in summons for shared vision, and the task becomes  easier.   Bansho Tenin can potentially pluck Itachi out.  Similar to Gaara removing Madara from Susanoo.


Nagato on the other hand has many advantages.  


Shared Vision:  We saw Itachi get around this, but that was with a distracted Nagato.  He was concentrating on Bee/Naruto.

Shinra Tensei: This can be used at random, and aside from Nagato deciding to lift his arm... has no warning.  Edo Nagato's ST has a HUGE AoE radius.  It destroyed several trees.  If it hits Itachi, it could be the end just with that.

Bansho Tenin:  Unless it's a clone, Itachi has no real counter for freeing himself.

Preta Path:  Nullifies all itachi's ninjustu

Summons:  If Nagato decides to spam summons, then it would spell defeat for Itachi.  Having so many targets with shared vision coming at you would be incredibly hard to counter.  Especially when you have a Rinnegan user spamming techniques inbetween.  Example.. Nagato Sends out three summons towards Itachi.. Itachi is busy fighting that, then Nagato sends a full blast ST at Itachi.  It's over.

Chibaku Tensei:  Itachi can't counter it alone.


I left out things that favor Nagato, but with what I listed it would be enough.


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## Kai (May 26, 2013)

One distinct disadvantage of having Nagato controlled by someone like Kabuto is that Kabuto wasn't able to access Nagato's sensory abilities when he took over his mind. Remember Itachi had to remind Kabuto that it was Nagato and not himself that had the ability to sense.

That being said, Nagato was able to sense the pressure within Itachi's eyes and shout out warnings long before Amaterasu manifested. He should be more than capable of providing any number of counters to Itachi's attacks before they appear to mitigate Itachi's highly revered execution speed. That doesn't mean Itachi can't use clones and shurikenjutsu combinations to make that a challenge for Nagato.

If Nagato stresses the limit of his Rin'negan for CST or CT, it's over for Itachi.


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> > Attacking the argument that only quality posters voted for Itachi. I don't give a shit about appealing to anyone.
> 
> 
> Lol you obviously don't understand what I am saying. I said that you argument was a fallacy more specifically an appeal to authority in that you didn't attack the poster's arguments but just came in and claimed everyone who voted Itachi is a wanker, and that MotM posters voted Nagato.
> ...


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## Dr. White (May 26, 2013)

> > You talk about fallacy's too god damn much. I was telling that poster that he was wrong and showing why. I don't give a shit about fallacies and appealing or what the fuck ever.
> 
> 
> Because it is very important to arguing. Fallacies indicate errors in logic, ultimately making a point unsound in some way. Logic is like math, it has laws, constructs, and is ultimately a method, just like math you have to show your work. A fallacy indicates an error.
> ...


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## Sans (May 26, 2013)

Okay fair enough, my mistake.

And yeah, I got four votes. Only two people got more than four votes. That means I still got ranked highly.

How many did you receive?


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## IchLiebe (May 26, 2013)

You'll see about what I mean about the quote tags, I'll leave your mistake in the first one and fix it in the second.



Dr. White said:


> > Because it is very important to arguing. Fallacies indicate errors in logic, ultimately making a point unsound in some way. Logic is like math, it has laws, constructs, and is ultimately a method, just like math you have to show your work. A fallacy indicates an error.
> >
> > See how you put a quote tag when one was already there. When you quote me look at mine.
> >
> > ...


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## ATastyMuffin (May 26, 2013)

Wow, what's with all this pseudo-intellectual posturing about who's the best debater? Keep the discussion to facts and the manga, not angry retorts about meaningless standing on an online sub-section of a backwater forum.

Anyways, with manga knowledge, Nagato has been shown to be aware of Amaterasu, and most likely, Itachi's proficient Sharingan genjutsu. As such, he'll be one to avoid looking in the latter's eyes, relying on his chakra sensing to detect the opponent for him. Tsukuyomi is rendered useless, and I can't imagine the Uchiha's finger genjutsu holding much, if any, of a lasting effect on the Rinnegan user.

As with Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu does little to nothing, especially when Nagato can a) detect its usage prior and b) can either repel it with Shinra Tensei or absorb it and c) heal any injuries with Jigokudo, assuming Edo Tensei isn't at play here (which isn't mentioned in the OP, so I'll say no).

Susano'o is Itachi's only remaining option, and I can't imagine a sweeping, one-sided battle in Itachi's favor as he repels a horde of summons angling his direction. If this isn't in Edo Tensei form but in living, Itachi will be exhausted quite briefly from multiple uses of Amaterasu/Susano'o to exterminate the summons, and with the given time, Nagato has the opportunity to set up Chibaku Tensei.

Nagato also has the option of using Chou Shinra Tensei from the get-go to immediately win; though it isn't IC. I believe Nagato takes this far more times than Itachi does.


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## Jagger (May 26, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Totsuka blitz cannon. i don't see the argument.


Because Nagato is obviously going to stand there like an idiot in a close distance to Itachi?



Komnenos said:


> Best Rookie - 2011 Annual Awards.
> Second Best Debater - 2012 Annual Awards.
> 
> 
> ...


How many people did you paid to get such prize?


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## Rocky (May 26, 2013)

I think Kom's essay in "The greater debate" was actually the turning point of the whole thing and was the reason his team won.


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## Vice (May 26, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Totsuka blitz cannon. i don't see the argument.



The argument is that Itachi doesn't have two jinchuuriki taking all the heat away from him while his opponent literally pays him no mind here.


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## ueharakk (May 26, 2013)

no incarnation of Itachi whether it be the fabled healthy version with perfect vision and a mastered MS, or the superpowered edo version is or will ever beat Nagato more times than not.

- Amaterasu and Susanoo get absorbed.  
- Tsukuyomi isn't working since Nagato has the rinnegan, is a pure uzumaki, and mastered yin release at age 10 making himself a genjutsu master.  And that's assuming itachi can get close enough to land it on one of the best sensors in the manga, with shared vision, while being thrashed by nagato's arsenal despite the requirement for tsukuyomi to get the target into it via a distraction.
- Chibaku tensei is an instant GG. 
- Itachi doesn't get to fill Nagato's numerous summons' eyes with kunai since he doesn't have KCM Naruto and bee to distract nagato.
- Nagato isn't going to magically forget itachi is there during the fight.
- Nagato is a sensor and one of the best in the manga if he could sense Kabuto's whereabouts which means bunshin feints ain't working either.

Living itachi needs to max out with susanoo in order to not get killed by shinra tenseis or asura lasers and missiles + banshou tennin, edo itachi goes blind or nagato ends him with Chibaku tensei.  Living Itachi gets beaten at almost low difficulty, edo itachi would lose mid diff simply because of his unlimited chakra.


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## Jagger (May 27, 2013)

I'm just waiting for the genius to come and say YNM is capable of destroy CT.


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## Thunder (May 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I think Kom's essay in "The greater debate" was actually the turning point of the whole thing and was the reason his team won.



Having judged the speeches I can say there's some proof to what Rocky says. If anyone doubts Koms proficiency read . 

But really, how about we stick to debating the actual match-up instead of comparing our E-penises. It's not going to end well.


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## KenpachiDiachoxx (May 27, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I'm just waiting for the genius to come and say YNM is capable of destroy CT.



Right. Cause a mini mountain buster Kirin Demolished Itachi's Susanoo. While Chou Shinra Tensei turned Konoha to Ground Zero.


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## ueharakk (May 27, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> But Itachi has shadow clones and Nagato does not.



by this logic, Itachi solos Teuchi


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## ShadowReaper (May 27, 2013)

. If Nagato is at his peak and not crippled, then he rapes Itachi with ease.  Well, either way he wins.


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## tanman (May 27, 2013)

Rocky said:


> Not even slightly.



I would argue that it is.
We've seen how Chibaku Tensei can be countered. We have not seen the same of Izanami. It's fair to say that neither of them have perfect counters to either of those jutsus. In my analysis, I didn't really consider Izanami, though, because of how vague its accessibility is.


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## Rain (May 27, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> LOLOLOL Here's the list just to clarify-
> 
> Nagato voters- Angoobo, Empathy, Final Jutsu, FlamingRain, Grimm6Jack, IchLiebe, ImSerious, Joakim3, Katana King, narut0ninjafan, ninex, richard lewis, Rocky, SuperSaiyaMan12, Thdyingbreed, TheIronMan, TorJaN, ?
> 
> ...



alex payne and Komnenos (when he is not trolling) are both among top 10 NBD posters.

I value their opinions individually more than all of Nagato's voters combined.


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## Sans (May 27, 2013)

What you don't realise is I was only pretending to be a good poster.


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## Atlantic Storm (May 27, 2013)

Guys, guys. Why are we going off on such a huge tangent? The fact that I had to delete almost a page worth of posts is ridiculous. And besides...

I'm obviously the best poster if we're just basing this on achievements and awards. 

(But seriously, keep on-topic. This is actually a decent match-up, and I'd hate to trash it.)


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## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

tanman said:


> I would argue that it is.
> We've seen how Chibaku Tensei can be countered. We have not seen the same of Izanami. It's fair to say that neither of them have perfect counters to either of those jutsus. In my analysis, I didn't really consider Izanami, though, because of how vague its accessibility is.



I think the difference is Itachi can't counter CT on his own, while Nagato doesn't need to counter Izanami. He just eats Itachi alive while he sits there trying to prepare it.

And to the troll saying "Totsuka blitz" are you actually serious? What speed feats does it have other than "blitzing" 2 movement impaired ninjas who didn't even attempt to dodge/counter it? I mean, Kabuto just had Nagato stand there dumbfounded after CT was destroyed (which isn't even going to happen in this match).


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## Jagger (May 27, 2013)

So just because I won a prize, I'm better than all of you and your opinions don't matter? 

CT can be countered, exactly, the problem is that Itachi doesn't have the necessary firepower to do such thing.


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## IchLiebe (May 27, 2013)

Well someone said Nagato didn't have shadow clones but now I can't find the post so here's the scan.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Well someone said Nagato didn't have shadow clones but now I can't find the post so here's the scan.



Isn't that just Jiraiya's story though?


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## Atlantic Storm (May 27, 2013)

IchLiebe said:


> Well someone said Nagato didn't have shadow clones but now I can't find the post so here's the scan.



That isn't actually Nagato; it's a character in Jiraiya's story who was meant to actually be Naruto.


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## Sans (May 27, 2013)

Even if he had them, he clearly doesn't use them as part of his fighting style.


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## IchLiebe (May 27, 2013)

Atlantic Storm said:


> That isn't actually Nagato; it's a character in Jiraiya's story who was meant to actually be Naruto.



Well if that ain't confusing.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 27, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Even if he had them, he clearly doesn't use them as part of his fighting style.



True, but that doesn't stop him babyshaking Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 27, 2013)

Komnenos said:


> Even if he had them, he clearly doesn't use them as part of his fighting style.



It is generally no question that the Kage Bunshin no jutsu is a mainstream Ninjutsu. Nagato was said to have mastery over all the mainstream Ninjutsu. 

By your logic we are forced to say Itachi doesn't make much use of exploding Bunshins, after all he only used them once right?

The fact is we've not actually _seen_ Nagato fight with his real body, while _he_ is in control. So we don't exactly know how he would make use of his jutsu mastery. We only know how he would make use of the Rinnegan jutsu.

Like Itachi, and many other characters, rather than retreat to - what I call a cop-out argument - "he doesn't use them" stance: Nagato would use any of the mainstream Ninjutsu as and when he needs them. Not spam, just like how Itachi would only use exploding clones as and when he needs to use it. 

Had we seen Nagato fight with his real body, with him in control, and he still didn't make use of any Ninjutsu (such as KBs) then your point would have a strong standing. However you're making an assertion based on a character we've not seen express his own style through a body which has access to more than one power.


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## Jagger (May 27, 2013)

I don't see the reason why Nagato shouldn't be able to use shadow clones. That's one basic ninjutsu and considering Nagato's plentful chakra reserves, he's capable of using them without problems. The only reason why he doesn't use them it's probably because he never adapted it to his fighting style.


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## IchLiebe (May 28, 2013)

Thunder said:


> Having judged the speeches I can say there's some proof to what Rocky says. If anyone doubts Koms proficiency read .
> 
> But really, how about we stick to debating the actual match-up instead of comparing our E-penises. It's not going to end well.



Lol

His argument against Asura was, The extra arms surprised Bee, and by being surprised Bee's strength took a reduction to where he couldn't break free...lol good argument. Maybe Bee got caught and couldn't break the death grip of Nagato

Vs Summons- They don't work in tandem allowing them to be picked off. Against 9 summons, counting Konan as well as that is one of Nagato's summons and has summoned her, it would be hard to hide and use guerrilla warfare especially when there is no communication delay between the bodies. Against Cerebrus, he says its only multiplied when injured not killed and thus Ama is a good counter. Yea well Amaterasu burns slower than my granny drives and has less power than my 30cc scooter, while Nagato can eat Amaterasu off of Cerebrus or just pull or push the flames off.

"Further more many surmise" Wait is his basing his thoughts off of people believing not proving something...Yes he is. and in that post he talks about how people survive ST but not summons due to their initial mass....1 st put Itachi down for a minute to where Nagato didn't care about him. And that Yata mirror would repel although we aren't even sure is ST is of chakra of senjutsu of some sort.

He also says Yata is impervious....yea well Kirin says No.. My bad he said its impossible to bypass. Well i must've missed the part where Itachi can control the size of YM.

Nagato has no 5 second cooldown on Deva path did and Naruto even said Nagato was using his techs faster and stronger than the individual paths. Nagato also used BT to pull Naruto and another BT to pull a rock towards Naruto. Something Kom said Nagato was skilled enough to pull off.

Susanno is an independent entity? Enma is, Kurama is, Susanoo isn't. And a Susanoo user can be pulled out of Susanoo. Gaara says hello.

Also about him saying Susanoo resisted CT yea but no  *nigh instantly summon* They were all being pulled up


Itachi sucks ass in taijutsu and Preta path make ninjutsu, possibly genjutsu, Amaterasu, Susanoo, Yata Mirror, Magatama, SoT, and everything else Itachi's uses completely useless. 

Heres how it goes.

Nagato summons all summons as well as Konan. Konan and summons attack. Nagato jumps inside Chameleon and uses rain detection jutsu.  1 amaterasu for Cer. 1 Tsukuyomi for Konan, and Itachi is already near death and his speed and reaction speed takes a dramatic reduction after using just 1 MS jutsu much less sustaining Susanoo for a prolonged time past a couple of seconds of which Nagato can eat anything Itachi throws at him while pulling Itachi towards him. If Nagato gets within a meter of Itachi Preta can drain his chakra pool straight from the source.

There is no way in frozen hell does Itachi stand a chance against Nagato. Preta is an auto counter to everything Itachi has.


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## Complete_Ownage (May 28, 2013)

Nagato will always be superior to Itachi imo

I think kishi made it perfectly clear durring the battle with naruto, bee and itachi who is superior and thus shows how teamwork can over come certain odds


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## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Nagato will always be superior to Itachi imo
> 
> I think kishi made it perfectly clear durring the battle with naruto, bee and itachi who is superior and thus shows how teamwork can over come certain odds



It also displayed intelligence is a key factor, with all of naruto's and bee's brawn, intelligence was still required to overcome Nagato.



I could agree Nagato is shown to be stronger, but with itachi's intelligence, he has his chances at winning as well.


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## Joakim3 (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> It also displayed intelligence is a key factor, with all of naruto's and bee's brawn, intelligence was still required to overcome Nagato.



Intelligence *coupled* with brawn was the key factor (disregarding Nagato's gimpage)

No amount of intelligence is going to save Itachi when Nagato starts nuking mountain ranges with CST & CT



Bkprince33 said:


> I could agree Nagato is shown to be stronger, but with itachi's intelligence, he has his chances at winning as well.



Itachi's intelligence was the cherry on top Naruto & Killer B's brawn... they both complimented one another (i.e there countering to _Chibaku Tensei_)


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## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Intelligence *coupled* with brawn was the key factor (disregarding Nagato's gimpage)
> 
> No amount of intelligence is going to save Itachi when Nagato starts nuking mountain ranges with CST & CT
> 
> ...



I disagree, as naruto and killer bee did literally nothing accept help break ct, itachi's intelligence was responsible for majority of nagato's defeat.


And as for cst and ct, it also depends on when Nagato would decides to use it or not, itachi obviously has chances at winning before Nagato decides to pull out these techniques.


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## owarij (May 28, 2013)

Full knowledge Itachi vs Full knowledge Nagato? This doesn't even seem fair, I don't see Itachi coming out on top for this match... Itachi's biggest trump card is Tsukyomi.. and  with full knowledge or manga knowledge, No doubt Nagato knows about it... He's a sensor and definitely won't look into Itachi's eyes.. he'll fight him without eye contact and utilizing his sensory skills.. He knows the presigns for amaterasu, and only has to time his shinra tensei to blow it away.. if he can preta path it, even better... He has tons of summonings that Itachi can't control with his sharingan (since they are being remote controlled through his magic sticks..  

  And let's not forget OP said neither characters have drawbacks..meaning nagato now has no reason to consider chibaku tensei a forbidden jutsu.. and would use it freely as kabuto did.

Itachi has his intelligence, but it's just one factor in battle.. it can only take him so far.... HE HAS to end this battle before Nagato uses Chibaku tensei, and I'm not seeing him capable of it... Without his crippled limitations, and tendo movement speed, I don't see Itachi's trademark blitz being a major thing here.. Maybe, just maybe he can pull off a dusk crow shunshin blitz, but i'm sure Nagato , his sensory skills and preta will counter it 

Exploding bunshins? useless, doujutsu will tell the difference between the real and a clone.. His shruikenjutsu can potentially limit nagato's sight through his summoning.. but It seems like nagato can pump out as much summonings as he wants, and I don't see how Itachi is getting the eyes of the aerial birds... 


I have no doubt in my mind however, that if this exact fight happened in the manga, Kishi would give itachi some jutsu to pull off a win or defeat chibaku tensei... but nagato is just too well rounded, Too much for Itachi to handle


Not commenting on Izanami, too little is known about it, everyone has their own opinions, until a databook comes out , it shouldn't be used in debates


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## Joakim3 (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I disagree, as naruto and killer bee did literally nothing accept help break ct, itachi's intelligence was responsible for majority of nagato's defeat.



Which required brawn and would have directly resulted in Itachi's defeat.

Itachi's intelligence allowed team Jin to circumnavigate Kabuto's arrogance/stupiditiy in controlling Nagato. Nagato himself isn't going to make the same mistakes as the former



Bkprince33 said:


> And as for cst and ct, it also depends on when Nagato would decides to use it or not, itachi obviously has chances at winning before Nagato decides to pull out these techniques.



The problem is Itachi has zero way of beating him before he one shots... Nagato is quite literally the anti-Uchiha counter. 

_Tsukuyomai_ was broken by 3 tomo Sasuke, Nagato is even more proficient than the former in genjutsu (he had ALL his subordinates under one), has Uzumaki lineage and just so happens to have eyes 3 tiers above Sasuke's.... it's comical to think it would make a difference

_Amaterasu_ was canonically sensed by Nagato before it was even ready to fire. He casually ST's it back or absorbs it with _Fujutsu Kuyin_

_Sasuno'o_ is going to be constantly bombard by Cerberus & 8+ summons from multiple angles, large scale _Shinra Tensei_, _Laser Explosion_, _Missiles_ which is keeping Itachi on the defensive 24/7. While Totsuka is never hitting Nagato (when he's been given Tendo's speed feats)... and if at anytime none of these things work, CT or CST or used, and the fight ends

CST & CT put Nagato in a completely different tier than Itachi

This is discounting Nagato having full knowledge.... one would argue why he would he waste time with sublantics, when he can just end the fight to save himself the trouble (something IC he does).


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I disagree, as naruto and killer bee did literally nothing accept help break ct, itachi's intelligence was responsible for majority of nagato's defeat.



No matter how it is dressed up, Nagato-Kabuto not focusing on Itachi played a very large role. Itachi has Naruto and Bee to thank for this. 

Furthermore you say Itachi's intelligence was responsible... But you're contradicting Kabuto's inference for the defeat. He didn't blame Itachi's intelligence, he blamed Nagato's own disability. Further, it was highlighted Kabuto didn't have full knowledge on Nagato's capacity.

So really the majority of Nagato's defeat was in fact the various limitations placed on him. 



> And as for cst and ct, it also depends on when Nagato would decides to use it or not, itachi obviously has chances at winning before Nagato decides to pull out these techniques.



What chances? Ninjutsu is out of the picture due to Preta Path, avoiding eye contract for Genjutsu isn't a problem for someone who has eyes everywhere as well as two forms of sensing. Taijutsu is suicide against someone who uses the Rinnegan.


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## Vice (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I disagree, as naruto and killer bee did literally nothing accept help break ct, itachi's intelligence was responsible for majority of nagato's defeat.



They were key in keeping Nagato off of Itachi's ass allowing him to asspull and mary sue all over that fight.

They're not going to be there for him now.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Which required brawn and would have directly resulted in Itachi's defeat.
> 
> Itachi's intelligence allowed team Jin to circumnavigate Kabuto's arrogance/stupiditiy in controlling Nagato. Nagato himself isn't going to make the same mistakes as the former
> 
> ...



If itachi acted early he could of possibly ended ct by himself before the core strengthen, not only that but as a Edo, I don't see why he couldn't spam amatarasu and magatama.


I agree Kabuto did control Nagato pretty stupidly.

Tsukiyomi was never apart of my argument.



The sword of totsuka will make the summons look like fodder if they attempt to bombard him.



Nagato never spams all of his abilities in conjunction in the manner you described.



I don't see how kakashi level of speed means Nagato wouldn't be tagged by totsuka.


In addition itachi was able to feint a sage mode sensor, so just because Nagato sensed amatarasu doesn't grant him automatic Immunity over the move.





No character pulls out there trump off the bat in the manga unless they feel threaten by there opponent, such as kakashi when he though obito was madara.


Though it would be a uphill my battle my point is itachi has his chances at victory, if he can clone feint Nagato and follow up with a amatarasu that could grant him victory.


Or if he could exploit the 5 second Interval and get in range of totsuka that could also grant him a victory which is very possible considering totsuka's range.


----------



## Joakim3 (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> If itachi acted early he could of possibly ended ct by himself before the core strengthen, not only that but as a Edo, I don't see why he couldn't spam amatarasu and magatama.



Itachi had zero knowledge on it's mechanics, only after Naruto explained CT did he come up with an idea, prior he was at Nagato's mercy

Even with full knowledge, Nagato can use CT faster than Itachi can erect a Lv3 _Sasuno'o_ to access _Yasaka Magatama_, and thats not even considering Nagato launching CT simply out of range from Itachi's attacks



Bkprince33 said:


> I agree Kabuto did control Nagato pretty stupidly.
> 
> Tsukiyomi was never apart of my argument.



Cool

I simply explained my standpoint on _Tsukuyomai_ so you knew my what I thought in the event you brought it up in said debate



Bkprince33 said:


> The sword of totsuka will make the summons look like fodder if they attempt to bombard him.



Um yeah if Nagato doesn't join the fray as well..... seeing he will be attack with his summons it changes the dynamics. If Itachi is focusing on defending against the 8 Cerberus dogs surrounding him (of which he has to seal to defeat or kill his chakra reserves via _Amaterasu_), how is he going to focus on a lurking Nagato in the Chameleon?

It's called numbers advantage



Bkprince33 said:


> Nagato never spams all of his abilities in conjunction in the manner you described.



You honestly think if Itachi starts spamming a giant 50m ethereal ubersword swinging megazord, Nagato is not going to up the anti with a LOT of summons and nukes?

Nagato had every single summon out minus the Crab & Panda during his invasion of Konoha including the _Pein Rikudo_? He had 4 Cerberus dogs + the Bird out against SM Naruto just after spamming the Rhino & Ox. 

With full knowledge he is going to simply overwhelm Itachi from every direction, and then nuke him during the clusterfuck



Bkprince33 said:


> I don't see how kakashi level of speed means Nagato wouldn't be tagged by totsuka.



Tendo is faster than Kakashi..... and substantially at that when Nagato was giving it 100% chakra/attention



Bkprince33 said:


> In addition itachi was able to feint a sage mode sensor, so just because Nagato sensed amatarasu doesn't grant him automatic Immunity over the move.



Said sage mode sensor doesn't have shared vision watching blindspots, and unlike last time Itachi won't be casually picking them off as Nagato will be focusing on him, not to Jinchuriki




Bkprince33 said:


> No character pulls out there trump off the bat in the manga unless they feel threaten by there opponent, such as kakashi when he though obito was madara.



IC Edo Itachi flat out avoided a distracted Nagato and approached him with a Lv2 _Sasuno'o_ rather than go up against him in conventional combat, 

I'm sure with full knowledge on Nagato's abilities Itachi is enter Lv4 (i.e trump card) AS SOON as the fight starts

Full knowledge auto changes IC actions... when a character would go against the logical choice (with knowledge) thats when we call it PIS. It's the equivalent of Naruto using _Rasnegan_ on Nagato and canonically knowing full well he could absorb i

Nagato not using his summons to distract Itachi, or not obliterating him with CT & CST knowing *full well of every last one of his abilities* would be the definition PIS



Bkprince33 said:


> Though it would be a uphill my battle my point is itachi has his chances at victory, if he can clone feint Nagato and follow up with a amatarasu that could grant him victory.



Yeah Itachi has the techs to defeat Nagato, in the same manner Nagato has the techs that could defeat Hashriama, the problem is in both their cases landing said tech is virtually nilch



Bkprince33 said:


> Or if he could exploit the 5 second Interval and get in range of totsuka that could also grant him a victory which is very possible considering totsuka's range.



Assuming Totsuka can't be absorbed via _Fujutsu Kuyin_..... Nagato could levitate like Tendo or fly out of range on his Bird if he feels the need?


----------



## Vice (May 28, 2013)

Are Itachi fans _still_ prattling on with their "he alone could have stopped CT" fanfiction bullshit?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2013)

If Itachi's intelligence was the main reason for Nagato's defeat, we would've seen Kabuto curse _that_ instead of Nagato's disability.


----------



## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Joakim3 said:


> Itachi had zero knowledge on it's mechanics, only after Naruto explained CT did he come up with an idea, prior he was at Nagato's mercy.


I think itachi already deduced the gravity, by noticing the rocks and he also had Susano anchor him down a bit, I'm more of the opinion itachi had it figured out, but wanted teach naruto to be calm and analytical, I could however see your point as well. I guess it's just a difference of opinion on this matter, itachi's calm demeanor makes me think he had it figured out tho. 


Joakim3 said:


> Even with full knowledge, Nagato can use CT faster than Itachi can erect a Lv3 _Sasuno'o_ to access _Yasaka Magatama_, and thats not even considering Nagato launching CT simply out of range from Itachi's attacks



I'm sure itachi can erect a stage 3 Susano and use magatama and amatarasu, quicker then he explained to naruto and bee the weakness of ct, the range however could prove to be difficult if Nagato uses it in the matter, but why would he? It seemed to me he only chose to do that against the kyubi because it was overwhelming him.


Joakim3 said:


> Cool
> 
> I simply explained my standpoint on _Tsukuyomai_ so you knew my what I thought in the event you brought it up in said debate


Yeah, I could concede to the fact that Nagato at the very least has a chance to break tsukiyomi, but in that same token it doesn't make all of itachi's genjutsu useless, as danzo broke sasuke's powerful genjutsu only to fall for a weaker one, he could use light variants of genjutsu to distract Nagato and try to create a opening.


Joakim3 said:


> Um yeah if Nagato doesn't join the fray as well..... seeing he will be attack with his summons it changes the dynamics. If Itachi is focusing on defending against the 8 Cerberus dogs surrounding him (of which he has to seal to defeat or kill his chakra reserves via _Amaterasu_), how is he going to focus on a lurking Nagato in the Chameleon?
> 
> It's called numbers advantage


I think that's a little ooc, for Nagato, aside from the chameleon combination, we never see Nagato fight alongside his summons, he usually summons and then sees how his opponent fairs against them.


Joakim3 said:


> You honestly think if Itachi starts spamming a giant 50m ethereal ubersword swinging megazord, Nagato is not going to up the anti with a LOT of summons and nukes?


Well why would he nuke his summons along with itachi? We never seen Nagato fight in such a manner, I more see Nagato attempting to nuke itachi after he sees him deal with the summons, cst. Is possible itachi can clone feint, or survive it, in the highest stage of Susano, ct however is obviously a different story, itachi's only hope would be to destroy the core.


Joakim3 said:


> Nagato had every single summon out minus the Crab & Panda during his invasion of Konoha including the _Pein Rikudo_? He had 4 Cerberus dogs + the Bird out against SM Naruto just after spamming the Rhino & Ox.


Well that's pretty different, he took on the whole of konoha, so it's not like you can fight a whole village being conservative, why would he react in the same manner against one opponent.

With sm naruto, naruto also had a army of toads out including ma and pa, and if you notice while Nagato spammed animals against naruto, the other paths where pretty much just standing around.



Joakim3 said:


> With full knowledge he is going to simply overwhelm Itachi from every direction, and then nuke him during the clusterfuck


I see it as ooc, but full knowledge could change this, I don't think Nagato would just nuke his summons along with itachi, but there's no way to tell for sure.


Joakim3 said:


> Tendo is faster than Kakashi..... and substantially at that when Nagato was giving it 100% chakra/attention


So is itachi, and tendo also complimented kakashi's speed, so if he was faster I don't think it would be by a large margin, there was a thread where deadpool put itachi against himself, one was base, one had to actively stay in Susano and try to seal base itachi, the consensus was Susano with sharingon precognition, he would pretty much just seal himself and I'm willing to wager he would seal Nagato, Susano was fast enough to strike sage mode Kabuto, the same Kabuto who dodged sasuke's Susano arrow.



Joakim3 said:


> Said sage mode sensor doesn't have shared vision watching blindspots, and unlike last time Itachi won't be casually picking them off as Nagato will be focusing on him, not to Jinchuriki


But it could be hard for Nagato, to get a good shot on him, with all of his summons in the way, and if you have the summons attempt to rush him, then his shared vision is pretty much done as itachi would just seal them.



Joakim3 said:


> IC Edo Itachi flat out avoided a distracted Nagato and approached him with a Lv2 _Sasuno'o_ rather than go up against him in conventional combat,


That's because naruto and bee where both about to die, there's no way to tell how ic itachi would of approached Nagato in a regular fight.



Joakim3 said:


> I'm sure with full knowledge on Nagato's abilities Itachi is enter Lv4 (i.e trump card) AS SOON as the fight starts.


I think he'll wait until he is more pressured, or overwhelemed to pull it out.


Joakim3 said:


> Full knowledge auto changes IC actions... when a character would go against the logical choice (with knowledge) thats when we call it PIS. It's the equivalent of Naruto using _Rasnegan_ on Nagato and canonically knowing full well he could absorb.



I could agree with this, but to a extent, at the end of the day we see pis in the manga all the time, we have to factor in a characters intelligence and personality.


Joakim3 said:


> Nagato not using his summons to distract Itachi, or not obliterating him with CT & CST knowing *full well of every last one of his abilities* would be the definition PIS


Or it could just be his personality or his fighting style, the stronger opponent tends to be more lax, until they realize there actually in a threatening situation.


Joakim3 said:


> Yeah Itachi has the techs to defeat Nagato, in the same manner Nagato has the techs that could defeat Hashriama, the problem is in both their cases landing said tech is virtually nilch


Depends on the scenerio. Mindset, and knowledge. I would say Nagato wins more times then not but itachi still has his chances at victory, I feel like its not as one sided as people make it out to be, and it's def not a stomp.


Joakim3 said:


> Assuming Totsuka can't be absorbed via _Fujutsu Kuyin_..... Nagato could levitate like Tendo or fly out of range on his Bird if he feels the need?



Him being on the bird would make him more vulnerable IMO, and if he levitates, he has to quickly get out of the range of amatarasu or he's a goner.

Well totsuka was stated to be a spiritual weapon, so I highly doubt it can be absorbed.


This would probably be my last response as its to hard to respond in good detail with this iPad lol, I feel like pain is the stronger of the two, but itachi is  smarter, I feel like people tend to debate with Nagato as if they where him and always list the most logical thing Nagato could do in a scenerio, but  Nagato himself could possibly react quite differently to the situation.




Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Itachi's intelligence was the main reason for Nagato's defeat, we would've seen Kabuto curse _that_ instead of Nagato's disability.



And since when was kabuto's reasoning canon? It's not like Kabuto is going to say damn itachi, you outsmarted me


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## Jagger (May 28, 2013)

Not trying to downplay Itachi's feat, but figuring out you need to attack the core it's not _that_ intelligent, honestly. If the core is attracting everything to it, then, the only logical thing (because running is not going to work) is try and attack the core before the jutsu absorbs more rocks, trees and whatnot.


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## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Jagger said:


> Not trying to downplay Itachi's feat, but figuring out you need to attack the core it's not _that_ intelligent, honestly. If the core is attracting everything to it, then, the only logical thing (because running is not going to work) is try and attack the core before the jutsu absorbs more rocks, trees and whatnot.



I think it's not really a intelligent feat but it shows , he's able to keep a cool head.


It's easy for us to deduce the core weakness when where outside looking in, but being in actually danger can break the most logical persons though pattern and make them freeze up.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> And since when was kabuto's reasoning canon? It's not like Kabuto is going to say damn itachi, you outsmarted me



Since it wasn't refuted at all, seeing as everything about the loss to him centred around Nagato's disability. Well if it was canon that Itachi outsmarted Kabuto in that instance... he would've said it. 

To try and demote Kabuto's own canon words weakens your stance dramatically. More so as you ignore the significance of Bee and Naruto's presence as well as Nagato's many limitations whilst overestimating Itachi's minute contributions to the defeat.


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## Jagger (May 28, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> I think it's not really a intelligent feat but it shows , he's able to keep a cool head.
> 
> 
> It's easy for us to deduce the core weakness when where outside looking in, but being in actually danger can break the most logical persons though pattern and make them freeze up.


I concede the point, I just don't like seeing people calling it one amazing feat from him. It was just fast-thinking, actually.


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## joshhookway (May 28, 2013)

You guys realize that CT takes time and when nagato uses it, he stands still. Itachi easily Totsuka Nagato during the time interval.


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## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Since it wasn't refuted at all, seeing as everything about the loss to him centred around Nagato's disability. Well if it was canon that Itachi outsmarted Kabuto in that instance... he would've said it.
> 
> To try and demote Kabuto's own canon words weakens your stance dramatically. More so as you ignore the significance of Bee and Naruto's presence as well as Nagato's many limitations whilst overestimating Itachi's minute contributions to the defeat.



Kabuto was in a cave by himself, who would refute the statement? 


Character statements are made all the time, Kabuto saying something doesn't mean much, as its not like Kabuto knew the extent of nagato's movement while he was healthy and neither do we, but of course you don't think about stuff like that so I won't bother debating with you.



If you want to pretend like itachi had absolutely nothing to do with nagato's defeat then answer this one question, what was going to happened to naruto and bee if itachi didn't step in? Don't worry I'll wait.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 28, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You guys realize that CT takes time and when nagato uses it, he stands still. Itachi easily Totsuka Nagato during the time interval.





No it doesn't. He used it almost immediately, and much faster than any of Itachi's MS jutsu. Plus there's the fact that he was ST to create distance between them.

I mean, it's all fine and dandy to just list the jutsus Itachi has, but you need to consider whether they would actually work.


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## Bkprince33 (May 28, 2013)

Jagger said:


> I concede the point, I just don't like seeing people calling it one amazing feat from him. It was just fast-thinking, actually.



Lol true a few ninja should also be able to replicate the feat, kakashi, minato, shikamaru


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## Empathy (May 28, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You guys realize that CT takes time and when nagato uses it, he stands still. Itachi easily Totsuka Nagato during the time interval.



What if Nagato were flying where the _Totsuka_ couldn't reach him?


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## Grimmjowsensei (May 28, 2013)

Nagato uses BT and pulls Totsuka towards himself GG 

Or the good old canon dust cloud + totsuka blitz comes to the picture @ some point.



Empathy said:


> What if Nagato were flying were the _Totsuka_ couldn't reach him?



Yasaka No Magatama or Amaterasu


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## ueharakk (May 28, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> You guys realize that CT takes time and when nagato uses it, he stands still. Itachi easily Totsuka Nagato during the time interval.



Deva path didn't stand still while using CT, he formed it, threw it into the sky and let it rip while still outrunning KN6 Naruto.


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## Jagger (May 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato uses BT and pulls Totsuka towards himself GG


Asura's cannon or the missiles just to fuck up Itachi a little bit.


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## Vice (May 28, 2013)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Nagato uses BT and pulls Totsuka towards himself GG
> 
> Or the good old canon dust cloud + totsuka blitz comes to the picture @ some point.
> 
> ...



Yeah, except Nagato's not being controlled like a puppet here.


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## joshhookway (May 29, 2013)

narut0ninjafan said:


> No it doesn't. He used it almost immediately, and much faster than any of Itachi's MS jutsu. Plus there's the fact that he was ST to create distance between them.
> 
> I mean, it's all fine and dandy to just list the jutsus Itachi has, but *you need to consider whether they would actually work.*






Itachi also had the burden of saving Naruto and Bee


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## LostSelf (May 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi also had the burden of saving Naruto and Bee



By following this logic, we can say that Rock Lee is stronger than Madara. Because who cares about the help he got when we want to wank our fav character?


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## Vice (May 29, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> If you want to pretend like itachi had absolutely nothing to do with nagato's defeat then answer this one question, what was going to happened to naruto and bee if itachi didn't step in? Don't worry I'll wait.



Nobody's pretending that Itachi had nothing to do with Nagato's defeat, his fanclub however likes to pretend he had everything to do with it.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 29, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kabuto was in a cave by himself, who would refute the statement?



If Kishi believed it was untrue, he would've written a refute in. 
However instead we had Kishimoto go the extra mile for Nagato by attributing his loss to his disability and Kabuto's lack of knowledge. Not Itachi's presence. 



> Character statements are made all the time, Kabuto saying something doesn't mean much, as its not like Kabuto knew the extent of nagato's movement while he was healthy and neither do we, but of course you don't think about stuff like that so I won't bother debating with you.



Character statements which are false are generally proven false through some other means. Those left alone tend to be true. Kabuto knew Nagato's mobility was severely hampered, even after two bursts of speed. Hence Kabuto felt the need to mention it. 

Your main argument involves disregarding a canon statement. You can try to suppress that statement in your arguments. However you'll end up with a stance with a fatal flaw.



> If you want to pretend like itachi had absolutely nothing to do with nagato's defeat then answer this one question, what was going to happened to naruto and bee if itachi didn't step in? Don't worry I'll wait.



Hey there, soldier. Ease up. No-one said Itachi had nothing to do with it, certainly I didn't.

I'm saying that you, Bkprince33, *severely underestimate* all the _other_ factors that led to Nagato's defeat _including a *canon* assessment_ by a participant of the battle. 
While, on the other hand, *severely overestimating* Itachi's presence. 

I'm sure that not even you believe things would've turned out the same if Naruto and Bee were not there i.e. if Nagato-Kabuto actually focused his attention on Itachi.

In the end it comes down to one key thing: your argument tries to suppress a canon statement and mine actually makes use of the canon statement. 
My argument is so much stronger than yours because I'm not attempting to inflate one character's contribution, nor am I attempting to suppress an assessment made by a participant of the fight.


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## Rain (May 29, 2013)

itachi soloed nagato with totsuka already...

what's here to discuss?


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## joshhookway (May 29, 2013)

TheIronMan said:


> By following this logic, we can say that Rock Lee is stronger than Madara. Because who cares about the help he got when we want to wank our fav character?



Except Madara wasn't actually fighting and Rock lee had a boost.

Itachi beat nagato fair and square. Nagato wankers just try to find excuses.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Except Madara wasn't actually fighting and Rock lee had a boost.



By your logic, that is meaningless. It doesn't matter if Madara wasn't fighting the way he would normally. So long as someone kick-soloed him, that is all that matters.

After all, your logic commands that we should only look at the end result whilst dismissing all the other factors that led up to it. Meaning it doesn't matter if Madara was limited, or if Rock Lee had massive amounts of help. Just like, _to you_, it doesn't matter if Nagato was limited or if Itachi had massive amounts of help.

Additionally you are automatically weakening your own stance by refusing to stay consistent. If you believe Nagato was Totsuka soloed, no questions asked. Then to ensure that your stance follows some logic you actually adhere to, you *must* believe that Rock Lee soloed Madara, no questions asked.


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## Vice (May 29, 2013)

Uh, no. Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee defeated puppet Nagato. Itachi alone didn't do shit.


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## LostSelf (May 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> By your logic, that is meaningless. It doesn't matter if Madara wasn't fighting the way he would normally. So long as someone kick-soloed him, that is all that matters.
> 
> After all, your logic commands that we should only look at the end result whilst dismissing all the other factors that led up to it. Meaning it doesn't matter if Madara was limited, or if Rock Lee had massive amounts of help. Just like, _to you_, it doesn't matter if Nagato was limited or if Itachi had massive amounts of help.
> 
> Additionally you are automatically weakening your own stance by refusing to stay consistent. If you believe Nagato was Totsuka soloed, no questions asked. Then to ensure that your stance follows some logic you actually adhere to, you *must* believe that Rock Lee soloed Madara, no questions asked.





Vice said:


> Uh, no. Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee defeated puppet Nagato. Itachi alone didn't do shit.



Indeed.

It's funny how they find excuses for my example of Rock lee cutting Madara in half but ignore how Itachi managed to stab Nagato with Totsuka and the massive help he had to do it.

There was no need to put this here, but just in case some don't understand both of those reasonings i'm quoting.

All Itachi managed in that fight was because he had help. _Everything_ without exception. And this is clearly ignored everytime a Nagato vs Itachi thread appears.

Thread that Nagato wins in the end always .


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## hannah (May 29, 2013)

Here (mostly boys), join us (mostly girls) in voting on the . 
Then we owe you a favor and maybe you can make us come here and talk about power ranges, or hold up numbers for rounds, or something of that sort. 

As for Itachi vs Nagato... 
I'd say Itachi. Mostly because I don't know what "pace of tendo" means.


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## narut0ninjafan (May 29, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Itachi also had the burden of saving Naruto and Bee



Not really. Itachi saved them once, and they saved him once by helping break CT. 

Meanwhile Nagato had the burden of:

Being controlled by someone who ignored Itachi until he appeared with Susanoo, and ignored the shared vision his summons have/was PnJ'd into ignoring the shared vision
Not being able to move
Being controlled by someone who let him stand there doing nothing and gaping at a dust cloud

Itachi was not burdened that much. If it hadn't been for Naruto and Bee, Nagato would have been on Itachi from the start of the battle and nuking the fuck out of him like he was about to do to Naruto and Bee. Let's not get delusional. Nagato is on another level to Itachi.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 29, 2013)

Vice said:


> Uh, no. Itachi, Naruto and Killer Bee defeated puppet Nagato. Itachi alone didn't do shit.



I know that fully well. However I was showing how Lee>Madara must be the case if joshhookway accepts Totsuka>Nagato. 

If you look at the whole thing it is very clear that Itachi had massive help, and Nagato wasn't quite himself; also that Madara was more focused on suppressing the Juubi and that Lee had help from the alliance and a boost from Naruto.

However if you do what our friend is doing, looking at just the final result and not everything (including the many factors that led to it), then you can say Totsuka>Nagato. Now applying that to Madara, you also have to say Lee>Madara. Just like how Totsuka>Nagato ignores how Itachi actually managed to hit Nagato; Lee>Madara relies on not looking at the things which allowed Lee to land the finishing blow.


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## Vice (May 29, 2013)

I wasn't talking to you.


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## Jagger (May 29, 2013)

Rain said:


> itachi soloed nagato with totsuka already...
> 
> what's here to discuss?


Itachi got easily bissected by Kabuto in a split of a second and needed Naruto's and Bee's firepower to destroy CT, what's here to discuss?


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## Bkprince33 (May 29, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> If Kishi believed it was untrue, he would've written a refute in.
> However instead we had Kishimoto go the extra mile for Nagato by attributing his loss to his disability and Kabuto's lack of knowledge. Not Itachi's presence.


Kishi Moro, also wrote, jiraiya could of defeated pain, itachi and kisame not bei able to beat jiraiya, itachi being invincible, etc... At the end of the day all kishi did was write kabuto's thoughs on the matter.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Character statements which are false are generally proven false through some other means. Those left alone tend to be true. Kabuto knew Nagato's mobility was severely hampered, even after two bursts of speed. Hence Kabuto felt the need to mention it.


And without knowing nagato's max speed while healthy how could we conclude this as canon ? How could we conclude his max speed would of made any difference without not knowing its limitations?


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Your main argument involves disregarding a canon statement. You can try to suppress that statement in your arguments. However you'll end up with a stance with a fatal flaw.


I didn't disregard a canon statement, I simply said Kabuto doesn't have any idea of nagato's max speed which he doesn't for all we know he could of still been to slow to avoid totsuka, Susano was fast enough to strike sm Kabuto after all anyway so the point is mute.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Hey there, soldier. Ease up. No-one said Itachi had nothing to do with it, certainly I didn't.
> 
> I'm saying that you, Bkprince33, *severely underestimate* all the _other_ factors that led to Nagato's defeat _including a *canon* assessment_ by a participant of the battle.
> While, on the other hand, *severely overestimating* Itachi's presence.
> ...


Ok let me ask you something, out of naruto, bee, and itachi who put in the most work in terms of defeating Nagato? 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> In the end it comes down to one key thing: your argument tries to suppress a canon statement and mine actually makes use of the canon statement.
> My argument is so much stronger than yours because I'm not attempting to inflate one character's contribution, nor am I attempting to suppress an assessment made by a participant of the fight.



Ok and if we embraced every statement made in the manga, we would have a invincible itachi, a jiraiya soloing pain, and kisame and itachi at the same time.

Characters make statements all the time just stop it dude your argument is baseless you don't have a shred of evidence beyond kabuto's statement.


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## Sablés (May 29, 2013)

Wait, after what's been like 3 years; Itachi fans are _*still *_trying to pretend that he solo'd Nagato? When canon evidence and statements contradict it?


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## Bkprince33 (May 29, 2013)

Sabl?s said:


> Wait, after what's been like 3 years; Itachi fans are _*still *_trying to pretend that he solo'd Nagato? When canon evidence and statements contradict it?



Actually most itachi fans concede the fact he needed naruto and bee to break ct.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Kishi Moro, also wrote, jiraiya could of defeated pain, itachi and kisame not bei able to beat jiraiya, itachi being invincible, etc... At the end of the day all kishi did was write kabuto's thoughs on the matter.



He wrote that Jiraiya would've won if he knew the secret prior the battle; that's not false. 

It may be hard for you to fathom, but if Itachi is considered to be around Jiraiya's level: that's how it is. Same with Kisame. 

Now you're confusing hyperboles (invincible etc) with statements. The latter tends to be true unless refuted in anyway. 
Yes, and Kabuto felt it was only Nagato's disability. Ergo according to an actual participant of the battle, the disability was the main cause of the loss.



> And without knowing nagato's max speed while healthy how could we conclude this as canon ? How could we conclude his max speed would of made any difference without not knowing its limitations?



Someone who apparently knew it well enough to think it would make a difference said it. So you're forced to accept it as canon, whether or not you like it. Here's the thing with Nagato fighting with his actual body: *we don't know his limits*. He's either been rushed, or not been allowed to fight for himself with his body. Same deal with Obito using the Rinnegan's full power.



> I didn't disregard a canon statement, I simply said Kabuto doesn't have any idea of nagato's max speed which he doesn't for all we know he could of still been to slow to avoid totsuka, Susano was fast enough to strike sm Kabuto after all anyway so the point is mute.



How do you know Kabuto has no indication of Nagato's max speed? Kabuto knew quite a lot about Itachi. Kabuto even saw how fast Totsuka stroke *and yet* concluded that Nagato's mobility is the only reason he lost. This was someone who was controlling Nagato completely speaking here; it holds weight when he says mobility was the true reason. 

If Susanoo had this supreme speed, Kabuto would've noted it, during the two times he encountered it. Kabuto was only ever hit by Susanoo when two Susanoo worked together or when he was setting up an attack he knew would hit. Susanoo's speed didn't seem bothersome to him at all.



> Ok let me ask you something, out of naruto, bee, and itachi who put in the most work in terms of defeating Nagato?



According to Kabuto, Nagato's disability accounted for most of the loss. Itachi's contribution, is not that large given that having the foe focus on two stronger foes was a huge pro for Itachi. 

Make of that what you will.



> Ok and if we embraced every statement made in the manga, we would have a invincible itachi, a jiraiya soloing pain, and kisame and itachi at the same time.



Except, like I outlined earlier, you're confusing hyperboles (invincible Itachi) and actual comments (Jiraiya>Kisame/Jiraiya=Itachi). Whilst forgetting the context around particular statements (Jiraiya being able to win that particular fight had he known the secret).



> Characters make statements all the time just stop it dude your argument is baseless you don't have a shred of evidence beyond kabuto's statement.



Your argument is the baseless one here, boyo. Characters make statements true. When they comment on events, their statements tend to be true unless stated/showed otherwise. They also like to hype others from time to time, but this is different from commenting on a situation. 

Well lets have a look, I'm basing my stance off Kabuto's actual words and the events of the actual fight which involved Nagato having several limitations and not even paying attention to Itachi. 

Your basis... well that's still a mystery. So far its been all about trying to suppress statements by confusing them with hype. At least, that's the impression I've got so far with how you've tackled the use of the statements.


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .  He wrote that Jiraiya would've won if he knew the secret prior the battle; that's not false.
> 
> It may be hard for you to fathom, but if Itachi is considered to be around Jiraiya's level: that's how it is. Same with Kisame.


So you feel like jiraiya can solo itachi and kisame? It's a simple question I never asked you weather you though itachi was around jiraiya's level, if you do then say you do, if you don't believe that, then your contradicting the whole basis of your assessment.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> Now you're confusing hyperboles (invincible etc) with statements. The latter tends to be true unless refuted in anyway.
> Yes, and Kabuto felt it was only Nagato's disability. Ergo according to an actual participant of the battle, the disability was the main cause of the loss.


No I'm not, zestu said with the sword and shield, itachi would be invincible, that was zestu comment on Susano, a character is allowed to make a comment, that's there thoughs on what's going on, it's never meant to be taken as canon, something your having trouble grasping, do you also believe sage mode naruto is > minato according to pa?

Kabuto said nagato's mobility wasn't good enough, he didnt directly state healthy nagato's mobility would've been good enough, how could he anyway? He had no idea of nagato's healthy mobility but you can hold onto your assumption all you want.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> Someone who apparently knew it well enough to think it would make a difference said it. So you're forced to accept it as canon, whether or not you like it. Here's the thing with Nagato fighting with his actual body: *we don't know his limits*. He's either been rushed, or not been allowed to fight for himself with his body. Same deal with Obito using the Rinnegan's full power.



No I'm not, your forced to provide proof of Kabuto knowing Nagato while he was healthy, don't worry we will wait 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> How do you know Kabuto has no indication of Nagato's max speed? Kabuto knew quite a lot about Itachi. Kabuto even saw how fast Totsuka stroke *and yet* concluded that Nagato's mobility is the only reason he lost. This was someone who was controlling Nagato completely speaking here; it holds weight when he says mobility was the true reason.



Because the manga never in the slightest mentioned Kabuto knowing healthy Nagato in the slightest way? Unless of course you have proof.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> If Susanoo had this supreme speed, Kabuto would've noted it, during the two times he encountered it. Kabuto was only ever hit by Susanoo when two Susanoo worked together or when he was setting up an attack he knew would hit. Susanoo's speed didn't seem bothersome to him at all.


Who said supreme speed was required to hit Nagato? ,

So you concede Susano was fast enough to tag sm Kabuto? Kool.


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> According to Kabuto, Nagato's disability accounted for most of the loss. Itachi's contribution, is not that large given that having the foe focus on two stronger foes was a huge pro for Itachi.
> 
> Make of that what you will.



So you concede Kabuto has no way of knowing nagato's top speed and therefore could no way say for 100 percent the top speed would of been enough to dodge totsuka.



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> Except, like I outlined earlier, you're confusing hyperboles (invincible Itachi) and actual comments (Jiraiya>Kisame/Jiraiya=Itachi). Whilst forgetting the context around particular statements (Jiraiya being able to win that particular fight had he known the secret).


So how does the context change anything? At the end of the day all of these false statements have one thing in common, they didnt have complete knowledge and there assessments where not meant to be taken as canon because no one can make a 100 percent accurate assessment not knowing all the details.

Sm naruto with knowledge, a free shot on one path, and deva beng down the entire fight couldn't solo pain without the kyubi, there is no way sm jiraiya is going to do any better, it's pretty much common knowledge now jiraiya can't beat itachi, so how the hell would he solo him and kisame?

But you can continue with your straw man argument 



Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> Your argument is the baseless one here, boyo. Characters make statements true. When they comment on events, their statements tend to be true unless stated/showed otherwise. They also like to hype others from time to time, but this is different from commenting on a situation.


 so itachi is invincible according to zestu? And obito would've of also died to itachi since characters make statements true 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> Well lets have a look, I'm basing my stance off Kabuto's actual words and the events of the actual fight which involved Nagato having several limitations and not even paying attention to Itachi.


Of course because Kabuto is kishi moto's co writer 


Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> .
> 
> Your basis... well that's still a mystery. So far its been all about trying to suppress statements by confusing them with hype. At least, that's the impression I've got so far with how you've tackled the use of the statements.



Kool story bro tell it again sometime, it's pretty clear tho you don't have the honor to concede when your proven wrong, so I wont bother responding at this point.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> So you feel like jiraiya can solo itachi and kisame?



Ir you read the page properly, you'll know that was never said. 



> No I'm not, zestu said with the sword and shield, itachi would be invincible, that was zestu comment on Susano, a character is allowed to make a comment, that's there thoughs on what's going on, it's never meant to be taken as canon, something your having trouble grasping, do you also believe sage mode naruto is > minato according to pa?
> 
> Kabuto said nagato's mobility wasn't good enough, he didnt directly state healthy nagato's mobility would've been good enough, how could he anyway? He had no idea of nagato's healthy mobility but you can hold onto your assumption all you want.



Zetsu said he's got a got offense and defence, sure. However with all things in the manga you've gotto put things into context. It just so happens putting the Itachi situation which started this debate in context works against your point. 

For example, we already know Itachi is still inferior to many super tiers like Rinnegan users. On top of that, it may be hard to fathom but SM Naruto was said to be pre KCM Minato, then that's how it was. 

Context is your friend, reading and taking a literal approach without applying context will work against you. Use basic logic: Kabuto thinks he lost only because of Nagato's mobility. Ergo he thinks with that mobility in tact, he won't have lost. 



> No I'm not, your forced to provide proof of Kabuto knowing Nagato while he was healthy, don't worry we will wait



The proof is there in the statement. You're just not accepting the canon there. Characters don't make remarks like "his mobility isn't good enough" without any basis. Whatever the reason, all we know is Kabuto had reason to believe that mobility was a huge factor.

You could argue with your style and want some other proof. However that comes across as grasping straws; trying to find an excuse to disregard the canon in front of us. 


> Who said supreme speed was required to hit Nagato? ,
> 
> So you concede Susano was fast enough to tag sm Kabuto? Kool.



You felt the need to bring up Susanoo's speed. If it wasn't anything special, I don't see why you felt compelled to bring it up.

If you actually read the post, you'd I didn't concede to that.



> So you concede Kabuto has no way of knowing nagato's top speed and therefore could no way say for 100 percent the top speed would of been enough to dodge totsuka.



Is "concede" your new favourite word? Simply throwing the word around won't force a concession. I'm basically saying you're trying to suppress the proof (Kabuto's words) with no real reason.

Okay, I'll play your game: prove Kabuto didn't know about Nagato's speed. Though in this case, the fact Kabuto felt he could comment on it works against you.



> Sm naruto with knowledge, a free shot on one path, and deva beng down the entire fight couldn't solo pain without the kyubi, there is no way sm jiraiya is going to do any better, it's pretty much common knowledge now jiraiya can't beat itachi, so how the hell would he solo him and kisame?





> But you can continue with your straw man argument



Explain how you see a straw man. 


> so itachi is invincible according to zestu? And obito would've of also died to itachi since characters make statements true
> 
> Of course because Kabuto is kishi moto's co writer



This is a straw man: [1] misrepresenting my position; [2] quoted out of context; [3] oversimplifying then attacking that oversimplification. 

When I decided to call your argument a straw man, I actually presented my reason. Hence I asked you earlier, where you do you see the straw man?



> Kool story bro tell it again sometime, it's pretty clear tho you don't have the honor to concede when your proving wrong, so I wont bother responded at this point.



Except you've not proved me wrong. You've only given unsubstantiated reasons for why we shouldn't consider Kabuto's stance. Without any substantial reasoning, your argument for why we shouldn't consider Kabuto's canon words is very unpersuasive. 

Therefore it stands to reason that a Kabuto controlled mobile Nagato could take a stronger Itachi who has two Jinchuriki backing him up. We can extrapolate from here and assert that a mobile Nagato, with his own mind and knowledge of his own powers, can take a significantly weaker Itachi (living Itachi).


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Ir you read the page properly, you'll know that was never said.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No point in debating someone who can't answer simple questions just because he knows the correct answer will obviously work against his argument, Kabuto has been wrong on many instances no reason to believe his word was meant for the readers to be taken as literal, Kabuto obviously lacked the full knowledge.



Your whole argument is based off why would kishi make Kabuto say that. But Kabuto statement is up for interpretation. 

"Damn he lacked the mobility " was kabuto's exact words on the matter.


All we can gather 100 percent  from this statement is Kabuto says Nagato is to slow to avoid totsuka.



This by no way means healthy Nagato would've been able to avoid it, your  taking it upon yourself to push this assertion as canon when Infact it's not.



But I'll leave you to your opinions good day sir


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 30, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> No point in debating someone who can't answer simple questions just because he knows the correct answer will obviously work against his argument, Kabuto has been wrong on many instances no reason to believe his word was meant for the readers to be taken as literal, Kabuto obviously lacked the full knowledge.



You asked questions when I asked you a question. 

Anyhow, you say Kabuto lacked full knowledge: prove it. Something *that huge* with a lot of implications would've been noted.

Further you can't be saying "no point in debating", when you refuse to address the points presented against your stance. 



> Your whole argument is based off why would kishi make Kabuto say that. But Kabuto statement is up for interpretation.
> 
> "Damn he lacked the mobility " was kabuto's exact words on the matter.
> 
> ...



I dunno you got that interpretation. He cursed his mobility then said he tried to compensate for it. If Nagato was too slow, he won't have suggested that Nagato was crippled by mentioning the compensation. 

"Lacked mobility" doesn't translate to "he was slow". It means what is says: Kabuto lacked mobility.



> This by no way means healthy Nagato would've been able to avoid it, your  taking it upon yourself to push this assertion as canon when Infact it's not.
> 
> But I'll leave you to your opinions good day sir



Actually that is exactly what it means, with mobility Nagato would've been able to beat a stronger Itachi with two Jinchuriki backing him up. Given that as a cripple he was able to move to and avoid Bee with impressive speed, we can infer that he's capable of similar, or better, feats when he's not crippled. 

If you're right about "Kabuto is too slow to avoid Totsuka" then that would've been said. However he cursed Nagato's handicapped mobility for his loss. Indicating without said handicap, he would've won. 

Your stance here still faces the same criticism of unsubstantiated reasoning. For example you make non-sequiter logic: you say Kabuto said Nagato lacked mobility... you then take from this that Nagato was too slow to avoid Totsuka. 

As such, based on the points you presented, I remain unconvinced that a living Itachi, who has significantly less stamina than Edo Itachi and no Jinchuriki backup, can beat Nagato. Nagato, who ITT, has mobility and  all the limitations tagged on him in the battle.


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## Bkprince33 (May 30, 2013)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You asked questions when I asked you a question.
> 
> Anyhow, you say Kabuto lacked full knowledge: prove it. Something *that huge* with a lot of implications would've been noted.
> 
> ...




Kool I concede I'm to dizzy to continue to debate with someone who talks in circles and never answers a question or refute a statement, you win mate


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## IchLiebe (May 30, 2013)

Kabuto "Ah so thats Susanoo" 

He obviously didn't have full knowledge.


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## joshhookway (May 31, 2013)

Do actually think that Itachi is just going to stand there when CT is used. Nagato stands perfectly still when casting CT.


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## Joakim3 (May 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Do actually think that Itachi is just going to stand there when CT is used. Nagato stands perfectly still when casting CT.



Nagato stood still becuase Kabuto made him stay still..... he was NEVER in control of his body in that fight, call it PIS, Gimping or whatever handicap you can give Nagato/Kabuto

We saw through Tendo, Nagato is fully capable creating CT's core on the move (while in an exhausted chakra depleted state mind you)




And on a side note, what happens if Nagato opts for CST rather than CT, Itachi has zero way of anticipating that attack, let alone actually defending


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## narut0ninjafan (May 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Do actually think that Itachi is just going to stand there when CT is used. Nagato stands perfectly still when casting CT.



You need to learn to read, this fail of a point has already been countered. Nagato can use CT much faster than Itachi can activate MS jutsus, and if necessary can always just use ST to blast Itachi away.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 31, 2013)

joshhookway said:


> Do actually think that Itachi is just going to stand there when CT is used. Nagato stands perfectly still when casting CT.



Do you actually think Nagato is going to stand perfectly still when casting CT? Refer to how God Realm used it, mobile. 

It helps to note that:

- Itachi stood perfectly still when Edo Nagato used it
- Edo Nagato stood still due to Kabuto's explanation; he was crippled


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## Miyoshi (Jun 1, 2013)

Nagato is superior. Itachi is portrayed to be a step ahead.

1vs1 -  There's no way Nagato should lose.

They definitely have a tier of their own, right under the hokages.


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## Ersa (Jun 1, 2013)

Nagato is a tier above Itachi. Simply too much versatility and firepower for Itachi to handle with his chakra levels.

Edo Itachi is weaker but on the same general tier as Nagato, Edo or not.


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## Charliemc1 (Jun 5, 2013)

You guys are smoking something. Itachi would OWN nagato im sorry but that's just obvious. You guys have no idea the true power Itachi is capable of but im mot going to give any spoilers.


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## LostSelf (Jun 5, 2013)

Charliemc1 said:


> You guys are smoking something. Itachi would OWN nagato im sorry but that's just obvious. You guys have no idea the true power Itachi is capable of but im mot going to give any spoilers.



I will wait to see it mr. Kishimoto.


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## DemonicAvenger (Jun 5, 2013)

Nagato Mid Diff


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## Kazekage94 (Jun 5, 2013)

Nagato wins-low difficulty. The rinnegan will completely thrash Itachi and plus if Itachi closes the distance he gets "Almighty Pushed".  itachi doesn't stand a chance.


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## Dragon Sage Ash (Jun 6, 2013)

Rocky said:


> I'm aware this has been done, but I want to see where people believe these two stand at this point.
> 
> Location: An open, grassy field. There is a water source.
> Distance: 25m
> ...



So healthy itachi vs can be full mobile nagato... But with no Koto crow, gedo mazo or pains...

FIRST: Why restrict Kto crow for itachi when it is his weapon or gedo mazo that would not even make a difference against itachi with susanoo...

In My Opinion:
Itachi still wins with some difficulty!

Itachi knows all about the RG and has seen enough of it in combat to know about the shared vision with summons, ability to revive and heal with hell realms enma head... ect...

: Itachi uses kage Bushin's to fight which can allow him to gather more info on Nagato's abilities, tactics, ect while also being able to use ALL of itachi's jutsu including MS jutsu...

: Itachi uses Crow Bushins to cast genjutsu... and also gather information...

: Once enough info is gained, itachi formulates a killer startegy, Sets it up, then comes out of hiding to apply it...

Itachi will in all likelyhood Defeat Nagato by blinding his summons with Kunai, amaterasuing the summons too, to defeat them, then force nagato to put up a smoke or dust barrier to keep itachi from using amaterasu on him, but was a trap...

Itach sends in three clones as misdirection...

FIRST CLONE: Directly attacks Nagati from the front with a Fire ball jutsu...]

SECOND CLONE: attack from behind at the same time with a fire ball jutsu too...

This will force Nagato to use both hands to absorb both ninjutsu attacks...

THIRD AND FINAL CLONE: will be a Kage bushin who attacks nagato directly from his current front position while he is busy absorbing the fire ball jutsu and lets himself get defeated easily...

So by being defeated, the kage bushin's intelligence of nagato's position in the dust or smoke cloud is revealed to the real itachi, and while just about finishing absorbing the fire jutsu and busy, Nagato while in complete susanoo uses his intelligence of nagato's position in the cloud and the Totsuka sword to attack nagato from behind where he cannot see itachi...

Nagato, realizes he was duped and is sealed forever in the Totsuka sword..




Kazekage94 said:


> Nagato wins-low difficulty. The rinnegan will completely thrash Itachi and plus if Itachi closes the distance he gets "Almighty Pushed".  itachi doesn't stand a chance.



Since when does itachi fight directly and not always use clones to fight the enemy indirectly to figure out the enemies fighting style, jutsu and tactics so he can formulate a counter stretegy to beat them like he oes everyone else he fights seriously...

If Not just immediately own nagato using a genjutsu/taijutsu combo before nagato can summon summons to be extra pairs of eyes for him...?

It all comes down to how much itachi knows about Nagato and his abilities and fighting style... I would say he knows enough to own him quick, but still might need a minute to gather intelligence with clones... either way, itachi will win...

And WHY does itaci beat nagato despite having a much weaker Doujutsu??? Becuase power does not matter... a SG user can beat a MS user... and a MS user can beat a RG user too...

The power of the tool does not mean everything..., it is the skill and intelligence of the user of the tool that matters more then anything...

So Itachi's superior intelligence, superior tactics, superior strategies, superior analytical and insight abilities coupled with his god like physical and JUTSU speed along with his extreme reflexes makes itachi able to beat shinobi with far greater weapons then he has...

Like against EMS madara... healthy itachi could easily compete with EMS madara and even WIN judging by madara;s performance against hashirama back then at vote..


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## Indestructible (Oct 16, 2013)

Kazekage94 said:


> Nagato wins-low difficulty. The rinnegan will completely thrash Itachi and plus if Itachi closes the distance he gets "Almighty Pushed".  itachi doesn't stand a chance.



Itachi wins - low difficulty. The mangekyou sharingan will completely thrash Nagato and plus if Nagato closes the distance he gets "Tsukuyomied". nagato doesn't stand a chance.

^

Which is why people must provide longer, more detailed, more compelling and less fanboyish analyses to support their claims.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 16, 2013)

Charliemc1 said:


> You guys are smoking something. Itachi would OWN nagato im sorry but that's just obvious. You guys have no idea the true power Itachi is capable of but im mot going to give any spoilers.



LOL FUNNY JOKE.


Spoilers? Provide the scans.  I've read every panel in the manga that deals with Itachi, every fucking one and analyze them to an extent that only possibly one other person on this forum does.


And Ill tell you right now that Nagato would stomp the living fuck out of Itachi 10/10 no diff. and if you want to fucking debate this then come on with it, Im ready to throw done(just chocked a friend out in real life just 5 minutes ago) then I am ready. Ill debate you so hard that you will quit this forums with only 5 post.

I end Itachi vs whomever threads because Itachi is just a weakling that relies on MS jutsu and if you have a counter for those you win. And guess fucking what Nagato has plenty of counters.

Susanoo- Preta path absorbs it, ST bust it, and BT pulls Itachi out of it.
Amatarasu- Preta, Animal, and ST
Tsukuyomi- Its called the mother fucking Rinnegan the highest level of a sharingan and its actually Madara's Rinnegan who is the strongest Uchiha we have ever seen and is able to produce a genjutsu with a 3 tomoe(I actually want to say its 2 tomoe but im not going to look for scans right now so we'll just go with 3) that Itachi has to use MS for.


And do you realize that Nagato can summon Konan and all of the summons animal path can.

It quickly becomes 9v1 and Itachi can't contend with those odds due to the limit of his chakra and the overwhelm effect.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 16, 2013)

Dragon Sage Ash said:


> So healthy itachi vs can be full mobile nagato... But with no Koto crow, gedo mazo or pains...


 Koto crow isn't Itachi's, if anything it was Naruto's. Itachi gave it away then went on to fight. In his last fight alive that was not part of his arsenal or else he would've just KotoAd Sasuke, but he didn't he chose to give it away to another shinobi so that it will become their tool.





> FIRST: Why restrict Kto crow for itachi when it is his weapon or gedo mazo that would not even make a difference against itachi with susanoo...


look above its not part of Itachi's arsenal its Naruto's before the Nagato/Itachi fight after that it is no one's.





> In My Opinion:
> Itachi still wins with some difficulty!


 Where is number 2.





> Itachi knows all about the RG and has seen enough of it in combat to know about the shared vision with summons, ability to revive and heal with hell realms enma head... ect...


 First of all Itachi never seen Nagato use hell realm. What's enma head...etc? Please clarify.





> : Itachi uses kage Bushin's to fight which can allow him to gather more info on Nagato's abilities, tactics, ect while also being able to use ALL of itachi's jutsu including MS jutsu...


 No Itachi uses Crow bunshins and Nagato is probably the best sensor that we have ever seen(found Kabuto's position) so bunshins ain't going to do shit. And one ST is enough to kill Itachi.





> : Itachi uses Crow Bushins to cast genjutsu... and also gather information...


Please post scan where Itachi uses a crow for genjutsu.





> : Once enough info is gained, itachi formulates a killer startegy, Sets it up, then comes out of hiding to apply it...


 Yes that would be viable except Nagato kills Itachi pretty quickly and before he can gather the necessary knowledge of which then he still can't touch Nagato.
[/quote]
Preta path HAS NO LIMITS, Itachi has to resort to Taijutsu to beat Nagato and that is neigh impossible.





> Itachi will in all likelyhood Defeat Nagato by blinding his summons with Kunai, amaterasuing the summons too, to defeat them, then force nagato to put up a smoke or dust barrier to keep itachi from using amaterasu on him, but was a trap...


 Shit by the time he blinds the summons Nagato will ST blitz him GG or a multitude of attacks. Do you realize that Nagato wasn't paying Itachi no attention after the ST attack until at the very last minute he saved Naruto and Bee. With Nagato focusing on 1 opponet while even IC(Pain went for the kill everytime) then this fight will be decided within the first 2 minutes. Itachi isn't able to buy time or atleast enough to gain enough knowledge on Nagato.





> Itach sends in three clones as misdirection...


 Then he is down to 1 MS jutsu and Susanoo for half a minute, or 2 MS jutsu's. Remember his chakra capacity limits him.





> FIRST CLONE: Directly attacks Nagati from the front with a Fire ball jutsu...]


 Preta





> SECOND CLONE: attack from behind at the same time with a fire ball jutsu too...


 Preta





> This will force Nagato to use both hands to absorb both ninjutsu attacks...


 No Preta can absorb(as Madara has shown) without moving. And don't argue that Madara is able to because Nagato did, when Nagato clearly has better mastery of Rinnegan.





> THIRD AND FINAL CLONE: will be a Kage bushin who attacks nagato directly from his current front position while he is busy absorbing the fire ball jutsu and lets himself get defeated easily...
> So by being defeated, the kage bushin's intelligence of nagato's position in the dust or smoke cloud is revealed to the real itachi, and while just about finishing absorbing the fire jutsu and busy, Nagato while in complete susanoo uses his intelligence of nagato's position in the cloud and the Totsuka sword to attack nagato from behind where he cannot see itachi...


 Preta. Deva was shown not to be able to do anything after using a ST and all other paths were knocked out. Reasonably if Nagato would use CT then he wouldn't be able to use any path for a second.





> Nagato, realizes he was duped and is sealed forever in the Totsuka sword..


Preta





> Since when does itachi fight directly and not always use clones to fight the enemy indirectly to figure out the enemies fighting style, jutsu and tactics so he can formulate a counter stretegy to beat them like he oes everyone else he fights seriously...


Preta





> If Not just immediately own nagato using a genjutsu/taijutsu combo before nagato can summon summons to be extra pairs of eyes for him...?


 Genjutsu will not work. If Sasuke was able to break Itachi's Tsukuyomi(Itachi was suprised) then by no means would the Rinnegan(highest level of sharingan) user be effected the slightest by Tsukuyomi which he would be able to see through. Asura path wrecks Itachi in CQC. And notice how I said CQC instead of Taijutsu.





> It all comes down to how much itachi knows about Nagato and his abilities and fighting style... I would say he knows enough to own him quick, but still might need a minute to gather intelligence with clones... either way, itachi will win...


 No it don't Itachi's arsenal limits him from having any hope of beating Nagato. Maybe he'll get lucky 1/10 times but Nagato would more times than not, shitstomp the living hell out of Itachi.





> And WHY does itaci beat nagato despite having a much weaker Doujutsu??? Becuase power does not matter... a SG user can beat a MS user... and a MS user can beat a RG user too...


 Even though MS is from sharingan there is no extra requirement other than tragedy happening. To have the Rinnegan(as far as we know) you have to have Senju(which is stronger than the Uchiha's) and Uchiha DNA to be able to use or activate.





> The power of the tool does not mean everything..., it is the skill and intelligence of the user of the tool that matters more then anything...


 A nuke can beat a rock.





> So Itachi's superior intelligence, superior tactics, superior strategies, superior analytical and insight abilities coupled with his god like physical and JUTSU speed along with his extreme reflexes makes itachi able to beat shinobi with far greater weapons then he has...





> Like against EMS madara... healthy itachi could easily compete with EMS madara and even WIN judging by madara;s performance against hashirama back then at vote..


 PS thats all. Hell Madara could win with a base Katon. Are you fucking Serious?

I ain't going to lie this reply has been up for about an hour, I seriously forgot who I was talking to, but there is no way you just said this...no fucking way


DragonSageAsh, welcome to my sig.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 17, 2013)

LostSelf said:


> I will wait to see it mr. Kishimoto.



Wouldn't that be crazy if it was him.


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## Jagger (Oct 17, 2013)

Indestructible said:


> Itachi wins - low difficulty. The mangekyou sharingan will completely thrash Nagato and plus if Nagato closes the distance he gets "Tsukuyomied". nagato doesn't stand a chance.
> 
> ^
> 
> Which is why people must provide longer, more detailed, more compelling and less fanboyish analyses to support their claims.


You know, I was about to neg you because I only saw the first half of your post. 



Dragon Sage Ash said:


> itachi could easily compete with EMS madara and even WIN judging by madara;s performance against hashirama back then at vote..


This is so neggable.

Itachi would lose against an EMS Madara. Ninjutsu, taijutsu, raw power, chakra reserves all goes for Madara's side, I believe Madara wouldn't have any problems keeping up with Itachi and Madara is not an idiot. 

Yes, he fell for a Mokuton Bunshin but when he was completely worn out against a person capable of easily switching between clones and the real one quite easily with his move-set. 

Madara's performance at VoTe severely outshines every feat from Itachi battle-wise.


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