# Jimbei vs Hakuba



## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 29, 2014)

Location: Dressrosa, starting distance is 50 meters.
Intel: None.
Mindset: Bloodlusted.
Restrictions: None.

Hakuba has no time limit.


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## Ruse (Sep 29, 2014)

Jimbei high diff


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## Goomoonryong (Sep 29, 2014)

Jimbei extreme diff.


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## The Bloody Nine (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinibea Omni-directional attacks work well against a speedster. Jinibea high.


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## Dunno (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbei mid diff.


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbei mid/high maybe. He will be messed up but a few solid blows should do it, Hakuba seems to just speed blitz don't see him being much of a tank


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## November (Sep 29, 2014)

Winbe


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## Captain Altintop (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbei ~ Luffy ~ Hakuba 

Could go either way


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## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbe wins with medium difficulty until we see more from Hakuba.


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## Orca (Sep 29, 2014)

Could go either way for now.


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## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Could go either way for now.



What has Hakuba done to make you think he could take out Jinbe?


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## Kaiser (Sep 29, 2014)

Hakuba mid-high difficulty. Luffy was portrayed as being capable to high diff Jinbe to me and i rate Hakuba without timelimit slightly higher


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## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Hakuba mid-high diffing Jinbe? 

What?


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## Orca (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> What has Hakuba done to make you think he could take out Jinbe?



We can't go by feats on this one. Otherwise Ryokyugyo hasn't done anything that would make us  think that he can take out jinbei either.


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## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Luffee said:


> We can't go by feats on this one. Otherwise Ryokyugyo hasn't done anything that would make us  think that he can take out jinbei either.



Are you honestly comparing Hakuba's hype to an unrevealed Admiral?


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## Orca (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> Are you honestly comparing Hakuba's hype to Ryokugyu's?



No. Giving you an example how hype has to be used in absence of feats.


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## Luke (Sep 29, 2014)

Luffee said:


> No. Giving you an example how hype has to be used in absence of feats.



So what hype does Hakuba have putting him over Jinbe?


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## Kaiser (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> Hakuba mid-high diffing Jinbe?
> 
> What?


To me his hype is comparable to Burgess who i put slighly above Luffy and considering i put Jinbe below Luffy, i find my rating fair


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## Orca (Sep 29, 2014)

Luke said:


> So what hype does Hakuba have putting him over Jinbe?



I don't recall putting him over jinbei.

As for hype the guy is said to be so much above cavendish that according to Bastille he's twice as strong. Someone on Bartolomeo's level couldn't even see his movements whilst having a view of the battle from the sidelines.


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## Imagine (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbei lays the smack down.


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## Ether (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbe wins high diff because of the wide AoE of his water techs as well as the distance allowing him enough time to counter Hakuba's speed.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 29, 2014)

I think Sanji has a good chance of beating Jinbei, although i give jinbei the benefit of the doubt at the moment for being such a tank.

Either-way i put Hakuba significantly above sanji. 

So Hakuba wins.


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## Veltpunch (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbe no more than mid. I feel like I'm being generous even with that.


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## Gohara (Sep 29, 2014)

It could go either way, but if I had to choose I would say Hakuba would win with high to extremely high difficulty.


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 29, 2014)

Jinbei slow, but his attacks are destructive.
Hakuba fast, his atttacks are well.. and he has no control over it himself.
Jinbe high diff at worst


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## trance (Sep 29, 2014)

A tired Luffy caught Cavendish's sword with his bare hands. Cavendish is not that impressive. His alter ego, Hakuba, has good speed feats but nothing to suggest Jinbe, who has a comparable portrayal of strength alongside Luffy, can't follow. 

Jinbe high difficulty.


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## Dunno (Sep 30, 2014)

Hakuba's best feat is managing to blitz ?ber-fodder. His worst feat is failing to blitz regular fodder (Rebecca). This puts him way below Sanji. 

Here you have Luffy replicating Hakuba's "amazing" speed feat, and with gear 3 to boot:


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 30, 2014)

Yea Hakuba who is twice as strong as a three year supernova prodigy(Cavendish in case you forgot) is way below Sanji.

Do you even read one piece.


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## Dunno (Sep 30, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Yea Hakuba who is twice as strong as a three year supernova prodigy(Cavendish in case you forgot) is way below Sanji.
> 
> Do you even read one piece.



Being twice as strong as Cavendish is like being twice as strong as a ten-year-old; it's not very impressive. 

If Sanji is a 100, then Cavendish might be a 30 or a 40, like Don Chinjao. Which means that Hakuba is still way below Sanji even if he's twice as strong as Cavendish.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 30, 2014)

^You need help, Cavendish has been given a lot of focus and hype this arc even on the front cover along with law, luffy, and Zoro. Your comparison is frankly speaking outright trollish

Also don chinjao a 40 are you on drugs? Sanji is only a little stronger then Chinjao if at all.


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## Freechoice (Sep 30, 2014)

Sanji is not beating Winbe 

Cavendish is basically fodder with a dash of narcissism thrown in. Dude is trash.

Hakuba however is pretty hyped.

Then again, nigh featless. Winbe takes it.


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## Dunno (Sep 30, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> ^You need help, Cavendish has been given a lot of focus and hype this arc even on the front cover along with law, luffy, and Zoro. Your comparison is frankly speaking outright trollish
> 
> Also don chinjao a 40 are you on drugs? Sanji is only a little stronger then Chinjao if at all.



Cavendish has been one of the gladiators helping Luffy, just like the King with the punches and Don Chinjao.

And do you seriously think Luffy could one-shot Sanji?  
Didn't take you for that much of a Sanji hater.


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## Vengeance (Sep 30, 2014)

Jinbe should take it.


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## Kaiser (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffy's jet pistol couldn't put a scratch on Chinjao's head. Cavendish displayed strength great enough to hold up Chinjao's entire body in the air with one arm only and was dodging his attacks at the same pace as Luffy while in mid air. Just imagine what a 2 times stronger Hakuba could do?


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## Freechoice (Sep 30, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> Luffy's jet pistol couldn't put a scratch on Chinjao's head. Cavendish displayed strength great enough to hold up Chinjao's entire body in the air with one arm only and was dodging his attacks at the same pace as Luffy while in mid air. Just imagine what a 2 times stronger Hakuba could do?


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## Imagine (Sep 30, 2014)

Dat ass in the gif though


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## Kaiser (Sep 30, 2014)

Imagine said:


> Dat ass in the gif though



It's the only thing i noticed in it tbh


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## Shinthia (Sep 30, 2014)

Hakuba is overrated . Jinbei take this.


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## TheWiggian (Sep 30, 2014)

Jinbei takes it high mid diff - high diff.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 30, 2014)

Dunno said:


> Cavendish has been one of the gladiators helping Luffy, just like the King with the punches and Don Chinjao.
> 
> And do you seriously think Luffy could one-shot Sanji?
> Didn't take you for that much of a Sanji hater.



Yea and being one of the strongest gladiators which oda has made clear by having him curb stomp a block like Jesus Burgess did, and give him more focus then Chinjao who can give luffy a good fight. That is hardly weak sauce material compared to sanji.

Elephant Gun Thor to the head will one shot anybody on luffys level. Law, vergo, Zoro, Sanji, Hakuba, Smoker all of them go night night.


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## Veltpunch (Sep 30, 2014)

Lol. Hakuba doesn't have the resume of a guy that could even hold a candle to Jinbe...but I guess anyone could stop Akainu's magma fist with their bare hands.

Hakuba's best feats are stopping Chinjao's not-so-serious headbutt (we've seen what a serious Chinjao does in the ring) and soloing a block of nobodys. Let's be real. Biggest name in that block was Rebecca's, who he failed to KO while Luffy blitzed her while eating lunch.

To claim Hakuba is at this level simply because he's "twice as strong" as Cavendish, who isn't very impressive himself. I'm also not sure where you all got the "twice as strong" thing from anyway:

At best, Hakuba = DCJ because his feats, hype and portrayal damn sure don't exceed the latter's. That's me being nice, and sure. He could beat Sanji. Pre-skip Sanji, that is. TopLel at him beating current Sanji...
You'd think the Cavendish/Hakuba overrating would have died by now...


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## Shinthia (Sep 30, 2014)

Dat logic. If u r so fast that even lolRebecca can somewhat react to u then u must be stronger than Sanji


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## Kaiser (Sep 30, 2014)

I see the Hakuba hate grows stronger and stronger by the time the same idiotic arguments are made


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## Veltpunch (Sep 30, 2014)

Can't hate if there's nothing to hate on. I'm the first to say if you have it then flaunt it, but Hakuba really doesn't have much, which means his cult doesn't either.


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## Furinji Saiga (Sep 30, 2014)

Jinbe high difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Sep 30, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> I see the Hakuba hate grows stronger and stronger by the time the same idiotic arguments are made


What idiotic arguments? He didn't say anything wrong.


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## Orca (Sep 30, 2014)

He did actually. Stopping Chinjao's headbutt is not Hakuba's feat but the much weaker cavendish's.


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## Orca (Sep 30, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Dat logic. If u r so fast that even lolRebecca can somewhat react to u then u must be stronger than Sanji



Pre TS Zoro reacted to Kuma brah


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Pre TS Zoro reacted to Kuma brah



Pre ts Zoro reaction speed> Rebecca reaction speed+ Coo


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## Kaiser (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Pre TS Zoro reacted to Kuma brah


Base Hyouzou reacted to gear second Luffy. Steroids Hyouzou was fodder to Zoro. Gear second Luffy is fodder to Zoro


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## Chrollo Lucilfer (Sep 30, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> Base Hyouzou reacted to gear second Luffy. Steroids Hyouzou was fodder to Zoro. Gear second Luffy is fodder to Zoro


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## Veltpunch (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> He did actually. Stopping Chinjao's headbutt is not Hakuba's feat but the much weaker cavendish's.


My bad. Although there isn't anything suggesting Hakuba could have done more. We've only seen a significant increase in speed by the transition form Cavi to Hakuba. At the end of the day, he couldn't KO Rebecca...who Chinjao absolutely mercs.


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## Shinthia (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Pre TS Zoro reacted to Kuma brah



Kuma has lots of way better feats than that one and thats why we think Kuma is so strong.If that was Kuma's best feat (like Hakuba) than i would have considered Kuma weak until shown otherwise.


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## Ruse (Sep 30, 2014)

Can't wait to see Hakuba in a proper fight


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## Hachibi (Sep 30, 2014)

Jinbei win mid/high-diff.


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## trance (Sep 30, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> Can't wait to see Hakuba in a proper fight



That'll probably happen when Oda actually starts portraying Sanji in a positive light.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 30, 2014)

This place is terrible now. 

DCJ a 30/40 compare to Sanji's 100 :-/??? Even a Pacifista isn't that weak.

Hakuba couldn't take out Rebecca? Never mind he was winding down and she had time to prepare and focus and still only narrowly dodged due to her helmet. I guess Vergo&Diamante are weak as shit for not KOeing Rebecca&Tashigi too. Then when people bring up Hyozou doing the same against Luffy the comparison somehow doesn't work?

Yeah Cavendish is on that couch for no reason? He is basically Fukurou compare to Lucci huh and Hakuba is Franky?


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## 108CaliberPhoenix (Sep 30, 2014)

The Rebecca situation shouldn't be taken to seriously, she had much more reason to be in the finals to win the mera mera and has more grudge towards Doflamingo.
 Cavendish was just there for fame he really wasn't involved centrally which was partly the reason Oda let Hakuba miss Rebecca
She did have some plot on her side there


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## Ruse (Sep 30, 2014)

Trance said:


> That'll probably happen when Oda actually starts portraying Sanji in a positive light.



So never then


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## Orca (Sep 30, 2014)

People also seem to be labelling Hakuba as a speedster. Bastille didn't say Hakuba is faster or twice as fast. He talked about his overall combat ability. Hakuba's speed seemed to be highlighted because everyone else was just piss poor slow and far below his level.



Veltpunch said:


> My bad. Although there isn't anything suggesting Hakuba could have done more. We've only seen a significant increase in speed by the transition form Cavi to Hakuba. At the end of the day, he couldn't KO Rebecca...who Chinjao absolutely mercs.



Why wouldn't someone who is hyped to be twice as strong as cavendish be able to do better? And Bastille didn't say anything about speed. He talked about his overall ability. And finally it's not like Hakuba can't merk becca.



Lionel Messi said:


> Kuma has lots of way better feats than that one and thats why we think Kuma is so strong.If that was Kuma's best feat (like Hakuba) than i would have considered Kuma weak until shown otherwise.



Hakuba's best feat shouldn't be failing to hit Rebecca when he was gearing down. What about stopping Chinjao in much weaker form. Or how about being so fast that Bart couldn't see his movements?


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Hakuba's best feat shouldn't be failing to hit Rebecca when he was gearing down. What about stopping Chinjao in much weaker form. Or how about being so fast that Bart couldn't see his movements?



Nope. We are to judge based on someone's most unimpressive showings. Except the SH. They are the only people where you can excuse outliers where they look less impressive or more impressive than they should. 

See as a community it is our job to downplay every single new character and cling to every single unimpressive feat as a full display of their abilities. Not take into account all their overall portrayal, feats, hype, and role in the story and read into nothing beyond the obvious.

If you follow Chinjao vs. Luffy you may inaccurately think Luffy kept on *escalating the level of attacks* until he was* forced* to bring out El Thor and that the fight would have likely _dragged _on if DCJ didn't get _cocky and willingly got into a contest of power_. A true reader knows Luffy beat Chinjao in base like he did Croc&Arlong. The Jet Pistol, hardened punch, and Hawk Rifle were the only real moves he used and DCJ only took them due to plot. Yep, this is the wisdom of the OL.


*Spoiler*: __ 



I hope this sarcasm was obvious.


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## Veltpunch (Sep 30, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> This place is terrible now.


_Now?_


> Hakuba couldn't take out Rebecca? Never mind he was winding down and she had time to prepare and focus and still only narrowly dodged due to her helmet.


Well, she read his attack and was able to dodge to avoid his full on attack. That's something that no one else in the block could do. Anywhere where Rebecca shines should tell you need to know about everyone else in the block.


> I guess Vergo&Diamante are weak as shit for not KOeing Rebecca&Tashigi too. Then when people bring up Hyozou doing the same against Luffy the comparison somehow doesn't work?


I never thought much of Diamante (still don't) in the first place, but I think it's important to note that he was toying with here. He was smiling and taunting her after all. As for Vergo, he turned around and used Sanji as a hype tool and defeated Smoker not too long after. Again, he has the credentials to pardon him from "not being able to" KO Tashigi. If Hakuba were to turn around and say, beat Pica, him failing to take out Rebecca wouldn't mean as much to me, but as it stands now, he isn't much and this is based on what he's shown. Name how many truly notable people he or Cavi has taken out. Now name Vergo's victims.

Same thing with Vergo applies to Luffy. Based on what he's gone on to do, it's asinine to seriously try and discredit him based on that.



> Yeah Cavendish is on that couch for no reason? He is basically Fukurou compare to Lucci huh and Hakuba is Franky?


We have little reson to believe that that means much. Are you implying that he's on the same level as Luffy and Zoro because he was on the same couch?



Luffee said:


> People also seem to be labelling Hakuba as a speedster. Bastille didn't say Hakuba is faster or twice as fast. He talked about his overall combat ability. Hakuba's speed seemed to be highlighted because everyone else was just piss poor slow and far below his level.


First, Bastille didn't say anything about him being twice anything. I posted he scan on the last page. He simply said he's stronger. Nothing more, nothing less. Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but twice as strong? No. Anyway, the statement was obscure, but from what we've seen, Hakuba only got faster. His biggest asset was that he moved so fast, none of the other people in the block (aside from Rebecca) could see him. This makes him more formidable. Nothing else can be solidly determined outside of a proper fight.





> Why wouldn't someone who is hyped to be twice as strong as cavendish be able to do better? And Bastille didn't say anything about speed. He talked about his overall ability. And finally it's not like Hakuba can't merk becca.


Again, the "twice as strong" thing was never stated. For the rest, see my response above.





> Hakuba's best feat shouldn't be failing to hit Rebecca when he was gearing down. What about stopping Chinjao in much weaker form. *Or how about being so fast that Bart couldn't see his movements?*


His best feat is taking out a block of fodder...Did I get that wrong? His biggest blunder is not being able to take out Rebecca, and it doesn't help that he hasn't done anything to justify this. Stopping Chinjao is impressive, but neither of them were serious. We've seen a serious DCJ and Cavi nor Hauba has shown anything better than the show the old man put on. Zoro stopped Kuzan back before W&, did he not? But who's arguing he had a chance?

@Bold: But at the same time, Rebecca was able to see him and react to him.


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## trance (Sep 30, 2014)

Luffee said:


> People also seem to be labelling Hakuba as a speedster. Bastille didn't say Hakuba is faster or twice as fast. He talked about his overall combat ability. Hakuba's speed seemed to be highlighted because everyone else was just piss poor slow and far below his level.



"Speed is weight."- Kizaru

With an increase in velocity, an object gains a significant boost in momentum and in turn, power. It's why G2 grants Luffy such a substantial boost in ability. He uses the added speed to supplement his attacks with greater force. It's why Kizaru can start a kick mere inches away from his target and send them flying into a building, even several at a time. Seemingly, Hakuba is about the same.


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## Veltpunch (Sep 30, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Nope. We are to judge based on someone's most unimpressive showings. *Except the SH.* They are the only people where you can excuse outliers where they look less impressive or more impressive than they should.


Ryuk, I want you to meet Sanji.



> See as a community it is our job to downplay every single new character and cling to every single unimpressive feat as a full display of their abilities. Not take into account all their overall portrayal, feats, hype, and role in the story and read into nothing beyond the obvious.


Really? Because based on the way things have been going, I thought it was the community's job to wank every new character and put them above or close to other characters, that have actually established themselves, for no good reason. Cavendish/Hakuba is mediocre in every aspect. Feats, hype and portrayal.


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## Ryuksgelus (Sep 30, 2014)

Veltpunch said:


> Well, she read his attack and was able to dodge to avoid his full on attack. That's something that no one else in the block could do. Anywhere where Rebecca shines should tell you need to know about everyone else in the block.



Classic debate technique. Let's post the same stuff the post you quoting already addressed :/.

It was plot period. It is not representative of Hakuba's abilities nor Rebecca's. It's about as representative as Hyozo or Monet who obviously proved to be nowhere near as capable as their initial feats would suggest.

Everyone else in the block didn't have the luxury of having time to prepare and being dinged in the helmet but instead got slashed in their unprotected torsos ;on top of her plot relevance.



> I never thought much of Diamante (still don't) in the first place, but I think it's important to note that he was toying with here. *He was smiling and taunting her after a*ll. As for Vergo, he turned around and used Sanji as a hype tool and defeated Smoker not too long after. Again, he has the credentials to pardon him from "not being able to" KO Tashigi. If Hakuba were to turn around and say, beat Pica,* him failing to take out Rebecca wouldn't mean as much to me,* but as it stands now, he isn't much and this is based on what he's shown. Name how many truly notable people he or Cavi has taken out. Now name Vergo's victims.



So you can acknowledge something off with Rebecca's ability to survive there but not what went down in Block D?

This is pretty straight forward downplaying. You flat out are only considering surface details. Cavendish stalemated Don Chinjao's headbutt. DCJ's weakest attack is still much stronger than the majority of attacks other characters can output on the island. Hakuba is much stronger than Cavendish. To suggest there is even the slightest possibility Rebecca could take a serious slash from Cavendish is absurd. You're basically saying neither Hakuba or Cav are remotely close to even Hody or Lao G, let alone Sanji in physical strength for not reason. This isn't about who he has owned or matched. It is about who we can reasonably assume he can at least fight. 

There is no gap that high on display anywhere in the story. Gaps like that are absolutely huge and noticeable. Oda shows us such gaps with Ideo, Sai, Suleiman&Blugilly vs. Dellinger, Sanji vs. Doffy. Cav has yet to look bad other than not obliterating a slightly exhausted Luffy.



> Really? Because based on the way things have been going, I thought it was the community's job to wank every new character and put them above or close to other characters, that have actually established themselves, for no good reason. Cavendish/Hakuba is mediocre in every aspect. Feats, hype and portrayal



Is this where I list the obvious examples of feat, hype and portrayal and you come up with reasons to ignore or downplay them?

His hype is that of a SN who has been in the New World for 3 years and is actually the good side of yet another much stronger character.

His feats and portrayal clearly portrayal him as being close in strength to DCJ who is not absurdly below a Luffy as some frankly retarded posters like to claim. Luffy did not beat him lower-mid diff nor did he fight him in base. The idea this is even entertained as a possible interpretation of events is stupid. The fact some people act like this is in fact happened is just plain sad and how low this place fell.

His best portrayal is being placed on that couch with the 3 other notable SN which clearly places him apart from Bart, DCJ, and even Kyros who placed in the background. This is probably where you act like this cover art means nothing then straw man to say I think it means _everything i_nstead of staying in the_ middle_. I.E. it's pretty decent portrayal and relatively strong Hint Cav is supposed to be viewed as an important character in upcoming events.

What you're saying is that if Hakuba ends up blitzing Luffy or, heaven forbid, Doffy then it's an asspull with no hints or foreshadowing at all that he was going to be such a powerhouse. No, the hints are there. It's only wanking when hints do not exist in any capacity or Oda even shows the opposite yet fans insist on what they want to believe. Enel was wanked. Kuma was wanked a long time ago. Doffy is wanked. Bellamy was even wanked for a while.
_
How is it it wanking to believe Cav is roughly Sanji level and the statement of Hakuba being roughly twice is a strong is not entirely hyperbolic? This seems pretty fucking reasonable._


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## Gohara (Sep 30, 2014)

I think Hakuba could defeat Jinbe- but Sabo stated that Rebecca's feat wasn't due to luck.  So, I would still credit her for that, but that's just me.


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## barreltheif (Oct 1, 2014)

Hakuba is probably stronger than Jinbei. But the idea of Cavendish being as strong as Sanji is utterly ridiculous.


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## Esdese (Oct 1, 2014)

Jinbie no/low diff 

LOL Hakuba wasn't even fast enough to take out Rebecca who is complete and utter fodder


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## Veltpunch (Oct 1, 2014)

Ryuksgelus said:


> Classic debate technique. Let's post the same stuff the post you quoting already addressed :/.






> It was plot period. It is not representative of Hakuba's abilities nor Rebecca's. It's about as representative as Hyozo or Monet who obviously proved to be nowhere near as capable as their initial feats would suggest.


It was plot that she won the block, but we can't just label everything we don't like as plot. There's little reson to believe that Rebecca avoiding the brunt of the attack was plot, but again, her winning the block was clearly plot. The difference here is that Luffy is, again, established and the gap between him and Hyouzou/Monet was painfully clear.



> Everyone else in the block didn't have the luxury of having time to prepare and being dinged in the helmet but instead got slashed in their unprotected torsos ;on top of her plot relevance.


On the contrary, she, unlike everyone else, was able to see and react to him. Everyone but the first guy to get taken out had a chance to prepare with each new victim. The biggest problem was that they couldn't see him.





> So you can acknowledge something off with Rebecca's ability to survive there but not what went down in Block D?


What exactly do you mean?



> This is pretty straight forward downplaying. You flat out are only considering surface details. Cavendish stalemated Don Chinjao's headbutt. DCJ's weakest attack is still much stronger than the majority of attacks other characters can output on the island.


Which isn't too impressive, as most of the other characters on the island are fodder to M3 level characters. It's questionae whether they could even beat a pre skip M3 member. 





> Hakuba is much stronger than Cavendish. To suggest there is even the slightest possibility Rebecca could take a serious slash from Cavendish is absurd.


For the sake of having one less point to argue, I'll leave this alone, for the most part...but if you look at what Bastille actually said, all he said was that Haku was stronger. Not "much stronger." Not "twice as strong." Just stronger. Anyway, if she was able to dodge one from the much faster Haku, then she can take one one way or another from Cavi.





> You're basically saying neither Hakuba or Cav are remotely close to even Hody or Lao G,


Please don't put words in my mouth. Let's try to stick with what's actually being said? 





> let alone Sanji in physical strength for not reason.


And you're saying I'm downplaying? Do you honestly believe Cavi/Haku is close in physical strength to Sanji?


> This isn't about who he has owned or matched. It is about who we can reasonably assume he can at least fight.


Well, you questioned Vergo's strength, so I had to slap you with his resume.



> There is no gap that high on display anywhere in the story. Gaps like that are absolutely huge and noticeable. Oda shows us such gaps with Ideo, Sai, Suleiman&Blugilly vs. Dellinger, Sanji vs. Doffy. Cav has yet to look bad other than not obliterating a slightly exhausted Luffy.


Youre right. It's Haku that looks bad...but Haku is stronger, no?





> Is this where I list the obvious examples of feat, hype and portrayal and you come up with reasons to ignore or downplay them?


Nah. More like the part where you, like most Haku fans, grasp for straws in many fashions.



> His hype is that of a SN who has been in the New World for 3 years and is actually the good side of yet another much stronger character.


His hype isn't that serious and his feats don't reflect what you're trying to say either. Being in the NW isn't enough to just put him where you want.



> His feats and portrayal clearly portrayal him as being close in strength to DCJ who is not absurdly below a Luffy as some frankly retarded posters like to claim.


No, they don't, actually. You just saying so doesn't make it true. The match between Luffy and DCJ pretty much ended when Luffy wanted it to...around high-mid diff.



> His best portrayal is being placed on that couch with the 3 other notable SN which clearly places him apart from Bart, DCJ, and even Kyros who placed in the background. This is probably where you act like this cover art means nothing then straw man to say I think it means _everythingi_nstead of staying in the_ middle_. I.E. it's pretty decent portrayal and relatively strong Hint Cav is supposed to be viewed as an important character in upcoming events.


Speaking of straws...they're getting away from you. Seriously though, you're reading too much into the couch thing. It's just cover art. No reason to think it means something significant unless you have an agenda. Che I the difference currently: Luffy, Zoro are both on the couch. Luffy is fighting Doffy, Zoro is fighting Pica (top exec). Kyros, who acoording to you, is less important due to being in the background, is currently fighting another top exec (Diamant?). Cavi is fighting....? Also, you don't seem to think too much if Bart, who ironically has shared a cover art or two with Luffy.



> What you're saying is that if Hakuba ends up blitzing Luffy or, heaven forbid, Doffy then it's an asspull with no hints or foreshadowing at all that he as going to be such a powerhouse.


No need to bring "ifs" into this, but if it were to happen, then that obviously changes everything. 





> No, the hints are there. It's only wanking when hints do not exist in any capacity or Oda even shows the opposite yet fans insist on what they want to believe.
> 
> 
> > _
> > How is it it wanking to believe Cav is roughly Sanji level and the statement of Hakuba being roughly twice is a strong is not entirely hyperbolic? This seems pretty fucking reasonable._


It's wanking because based on his feats, hype and portrayal, it's far from true. It remains a fanboy's wet dream. I'm not even going to seriously answer this because it's such an asinine statement. As for the second thing, I'm not going to waste time saying that that wasn't said. I'm just going to ask you to show me a reliable source that says Haku is twice as strong as Cavi.

To everyone that cares: Sorry in advance to typos. This was typed on a phone.


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## Dr. White (Oct 1, 2014)

Rebecca is not complete and utter fodder. Her whole moveset is designed around being fast as hell and dodging attacks. She may even have COO, but anyway thatdoesn't take away from Hakuba's feat as he also dispatched everyone else in that instant lol.

I need to see more before i make this call but if Hakuba is really 2x stronger than Cavy; I'd give him the nod.


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## Esdese (Oct 1, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Rebecca is not complete and utter fodder. *Her whole moveset is designed around being fast as hell and dodging attacks. She may even have COO*, but anyway thatdoesn't take away from Hakuba's feat as he also dispatched everyone else in that instant lol.
> 
> I need to see more before i make this call but if Hakuba is really 2x stronger than Cavy; I'd give him the nod.



Anyone relevant blitz her, and she does have KH as far as i know


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## Orca (Oct 1, 2014)

> First, Bastille didn't say anything about him being twice anything. I posted he scan on the last page. He simply said he's stronger. Nothing more, nothing less. Luffy is stronger than Zoro, but twice as strong? No. Anyway, the statement was obscure, but from what we've seen, Hakuba only got faster. His biggest asset was that he moved so fast, none of the other people in the block (aside from Rebecca) could see him. This makes him more formidable. Nothing else can be solidly determined outside of a proper fight.



To my knowledge cnet's translation is considered credible and it says twice as strong. Which one are you using?

As for speed, again Bastille referred to his strength I.e. Overall combat ability. If it was just his speed, I don't see why Bastille wouldn't just say that "Hakuba is faster" or he's "twice as fast".



> His best feat is taking out a block of fodder...Did I get that wrong? His biggest blunder is not being able to take out Rebecca, and it doesn't help that he hasn't done anything to justify this. Stopping Chinjao is impressive, but neither of them were serious. We've seen a serious DCJ and Cavi nor Hauba has shown anything better than the show the old man put on. Zoro stopped Kuzan back before W&, did he not? But who's arguing he had a chance?



More like taking them out so fast that someone like Bart couldn't even see how it happened? And Rebecca being  able to barely just avoid the full force of the hit is a testament to her ability(CoO + speed) and not a stab on Hakuba's ability. Since we already know that how incredibly fast he was. Not to mention there are previous examples of much weaker characters reacting to stronger ones i.e. Zoro reacting to Kuma. Also, if neither Cav and Chinjao were serious, then doesn't that just open room for more abilities from Cav?(hence why it was a good feat). Not to mention this is just cavendish.


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## Ryuksgelus (Oct 1, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Hakuba is probably stronger than Jinbei. But the idea of Cavendish being as strong as *Sanji is utterly ridiculous.*



Why? How is Sanji some incredible pinnacle of strength!? If Sanji is a 100 what is Caesar to you?



Veltpunch said:


>



If this is sarcasm, the point is I already addressed the stuff you brought up. So how does it make sense to counter with the exact same stuff?



> It was plot that she won the block, but we can't just label everything we don't like as plot. There's little reson to believe that Rebecca avoiding the brunt of the attack was plot, but again, her winning the block was clearly plot. The difference here is that Luffy is, again, established and the gap between him and *Hyouzou/Monet was painfully clear.*



That is exactly what you're doing though :/? It's not disregarding what I don't like. It's calling it for how it is and asking why this cannot be another case where this feat will be totally invalidated by later feats. 

_Not at the time. _ We had no reason to believe Hyozou would be such a nobody until he was shown as such. People were claiming Monet was stronger than Caesar or the Big Dragon up until Zoro scared her senseless with a display of power. 



> On the contrary, she, unlike everyone else, was able to see and react to him. Everyone but the first guy to get taken out had a chance to prepare with each new victim. The biggest problem was that they couldn't see him.



Because she was dead last and Hakuba was slowing down at that point. Even then all she did was move her head narrowly by an inch. 



> What exactly do you mean?



M.Trio level characters are extremely powerful. Generic blows almost completely incapacitate the next step down such as Gladius, Franky, Caesar, Hody, etc. So the idea people much weaker than the former group can take a blow at all is nothing but plot. Both Tashigi&Rebecca taking even the slightest blow should have had their heads cracked open but they weren't for dramatic effect. You see that in the Diamante's case but don't treat Hakuba's the same.



> *Which isn't too impressive,* as most of the other characters on the island are fodder to M3 level characters. It's questionae whether they could even beat a pre skip M3 member.



How so? DCJ and Cav are not fodder to Luffy. If they were they would have never gotten a scene where DCJ ended up looking the most impressive. It's a very simple portrayal that would make sense any other time but now suddenly because it involves Cav it does not :/?  Cav is only a bit weaker than someone who matched Luffy in physical strength. Hakuba should be much stronger than Cav. Not a simple power-up, like a Zoan transformation, based on his hype.



> For the sake of having one less point to argue, I'll leave this alone, for the most part...but if you look at what Bastille actually said, all he said was that Haku was stronger. Not "much stronger." *Not "twice as strong." J*ust stronger. Anyway, if she was able to dodge one from the much faster Haku, then she can take one one way or another from Cavi.Please don't put words in my mouth. Let's try to stick with what's actually being said? And you're saying I'm downplaying? *Do you honestly believe Cavi/Haku is close in physical strength to Sanji?* Well, you questioned Vergo's strength, so I had to slap you with his resume.



The exact translation is actually 

Absolutely? Why the hell not? See this is what does not make a lick of sense. He is a strong fighter of the New World who is praised by a VA for his strength and has gone unchecked for 3 years. His worse feat is having his sword caught by Luffy. He still managed to slam Luffy into the floor and if he was as weak as most people are to Luffy he would have been literally flung away even with Luffy's condition.


> Youre right. It's Haku that looks bad...but Haku is stronger, no?
> 
> Nah. More like the part where you, like most Haku fans, grasp for straws in many fashions.



So I'm the one grasping at straws yet your main point against Hakuba is that Rebecca narrowly stopped her head from being chopped off?



> His hype isn't that serious and his feats don't reflect what you're trying to say either. Being in the NW isn't enough to just put him where you want.



Why do you get to arbitrarily decide what is not good/serious hype? He is not just in the New World. He is not just been* in* the New World. And how does a feat where he clearly stalemated a M.Trio level fighter not indicate he is in there ballpark of power?



> No, they don't, actually. You just saying so doesn't make it true. The match between Luffy and DCJ pretty much ended when Luffy wanted it to...around high-mid diff.



How do they not? They stalemated. Cav having the physical strength to keep DCJ head suspended in air is canon. That is his only strength feat. If he was much weaker he would not have stood his ground. Please don't bring up DCJ not using Haki because that is beyond the point.

No it didn't. It ended when *DCJ *decided he wanted to end it. No suicidal clash and Luffy would still be trying to pound away with normal jet and hardened attacks. The fight was nothing like Hody facing Luffy that only escalated because Luffy was messing around. No, it escalated because Luffy had to go with something as dramatic as an El Thor. I'm 100% sure Luffy thought Hawk Rifle would do a lot more than it did to DCJ and that was when he decided to end it but failed. 

Speaking of straws...they're getting away from you. Seriously though, you're reading too much into the couch thing. It's just cover art. No reason to think it means something significant unless you have an agenda. Che I the difference currently: Luffy, Zoro are both on the couch. Luffy is fighting Doffy, Zoro is fighting Pica (top exec). Kyros, who according to you, is less important due to being in the background, *is currently fighting another top exec (Diamant). Cavi is fighting....? Also, you don't seem to think too much if Bart, who ironically has shared a cover art or two with Luffy.[/QUOTE]

Straws apparently = any indication of Cav/Hakuba's power level in the series that goes against your views. Rebecca scene means a lot but every other feat, statement, and a clear sign of significance above other characters means nothing :/. I am not grasping at straws. You're just cherry picking what you want to take into account when judging a character. Type of arguments made for Cav have been used time and time again and proven true but now suddenly they mean shit because you say so. 

Soo...there is no possibility Cav gets Trebol or him switching with Kyros or, heaven forbid, Hakuba goes on a rampage that does endanger all of them? There is no possibility of that couch spread meaning anything? Seems pretty strange for Oda to do such a thing for shits and giggles. I'm sorry but it makes no sense to pack the couch with 3 SN and then another pretty boy just because. It could have simply been just the three of them instead of planting ideas in peoples' head. No, it's clear portrayal ahead of everyone else not on the couch. You keep claiming I'm grasping at straws because I am not disregarding Bastille's Hype and Oda focus on him(an entire Chapter&Spread). Those are not straws!




			No need to bring "ifs" into this, but if it were to happen, then that obviously changes everything.
		
Click to expand...


Oh no. This is a very important question. You are so convinced you're right about Cav/Hakuba and I and many others are the "wankers" reading too much into superfluous details like hype from a VA and presence on that couch with the 3 other main players of the arc I must know.

Would Hakuba being a powerhouse and Cav as strong as I believe be an asspull to you? IE everything I'm saying is still wank and it's coincidence it turned out the way I believe. Or the writing was on the all this entire time and you and some others will just disappear like the Trebol losing to Ussop brigade, Zoro matching Fuji group, and Franky beating Pica party? AKA downplaying fools who refused to believe something obvious, due to strange bias,  and was clearly being foreshadowed. 




			It's wanking because based on his feats, hype and portrayal, it's far from true. It remains a fanboy's wet dream. I'm not even going to seriously answer this because it's such an asinine statement. As for the second thing, I'm not going to waste time saying that that wasn't said. I'm just going to ask you to show me a reliable source that says Haku is twice as strong as Cavi.
		
Click to expand...


No there is plenty and you're just talking nonsense for whatever inconceivable reason. Asinine? Comparing Cav to Sanji is asinine. When did Sanji become some incredible pinnacle of strength no one but non-retired Veterans, strongest VA, and Yonkou commanders can match!? 

This is mind boggling to me that Cav being a lower tier M.Trio level fighter is an even remotely absurd notion. This place has seriously went to hell. What logic is going into a scale that has DCJ a 40 to Sanji's 100 @_@. If Sanji is a 95 to Luffy's 100 there is nothing asinine about Cav being a 92-94 :/. There would be no question if he was a flipping 85. Oda would make it obvious not leave, according to you, a handful of red herrings lying around giving some people different ideas.*


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> Hakuba's best feat shouldn't be failing to hit Rebecca when he was gearing down. What about stopping Chinjao in much weaker form. Or how about being so fast that Bart couldn't see his movements?


You mean the part where his sword was bending ? yes, he showed him

yet, Rebecca could see his movements.


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## TheWiggian (Oct 1, 2014)

Trance said:


> "Speed is weight."- Kizaru
> 
> With an increase in velocity, an object gains a significant boost in momentum and in turn, power. It's why G2 grants Luffy such a substantial boost in ability. He uses the added speed to supplement his attacks with greater force. It's why Kizaru can start a kick mere inches away from his target and send them flying into a building, even several at a time. Seemingly, Hakuba is about the same.






Now that fodder gets compared to Kizaru 



*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> You mean the part where his sword was bending ? yes, he showed him
> 
> *yet, Rebecca could see his movements*.



Rebecca>>>Bart Confirmed.

Dude had a birds eye view and could not see anything that happened. What trash, Usopp could probably low-diff him.


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Rebecca>>>Bart Confirmed.
> 
> Dude had a birds eye view and could not see anything that happened. What trash, Usopp could probably low-diff him.



Rebecca is implied to have CoO (so is Usopp). So, Usopp & Rebecca should be able to sense thing which a non CoO user misses. Not all thing are power level related u know.

and btw, yes usopp will low diff Bart in sensing/seeing department.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Rebecca is implied to have CoO (so is Usopp). So, Usopp & Rebecca should be be able to sense thing which a non CoO user misses. Not all thing are power level related u know.



I highly doubt Bart can not use both types of haki.

Either-way Rebecca is shown clearly noticing Hakuba with her eyes, as Hakuba runs straight at her from the front, she was not sensing him with CoO. 



Speed and Haki are directly relative to power levels, this is one piece not naruto. Peoples stats are pretty balance with the others, with one or two aspects being disproportional due to fighting styles/devil fruits. Ex: Barts very high defense via Devil fruit relative to his power.


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

Look at the top right corner . Rebecca sensed something coming first and then reacted accordingly.

He can be a user of CoA (he is a power fighter who does not need to dodge much) but seeing he cant even see someone whom even Rebecca can see the chances of having CoO  looks pretty slim to me.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> Look at the top right corner . Rebecca sensed something coming first and then reacted accordingly.
> 
> He can be a user of CoA (he is a power fighter who does not need to dodge much) but seeing he cant even see someone whom even Rebecca can see the chances looks pretty slim to me.



Yea thats Rebecca noticing that Hakuba was right in front of her running at her,  it has the typical reaction icon that oda uses right above her head. Which is not used for CoO that i ever recall. 

As shown here. 


Or Rebecca just has better reflexes and CoO then Bart.


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Speed and Haki are directly relative to power levels, this is one piece not naruto. Peoples stats are pretty balance with the others, with one or two aspects being disproportional due to fighting styles/devil fruits. Ex: Barts very high defense via Devil fruit relative to his power.



yes, but not having a particular haki in a particular situation can make ur power level totally useless. Like a CoA Hakiless Garp cant even beat Smoker . Same way i think as strong as Bart is (compared to both Usopp & Rebecca) because of his CoO haki being weak (or not having it) he did not see Hakuba while Rebecca could




> Rebecca just has better reflexes and CoO then Bart.



this seems likely too.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> yes, but not having a particular haki in a particular situation can make ur power level totally useless. Like a CoA Hakiless Garp cant even beat Smoker . Same way i think as strong as Bart is (compared to both Usopp & Rebecca) because of his CoO haki being weak (or not having it) he did not see Hakuba while Rebecca could
> 
> 
> 
> ...



My point is simply this Rebecca is fast as her feats and hype suggest. 

Sabo said Rebecca doing what she did was not luck(So it was a legit feat), Sabo also said Hakuba was fast. 

So trying to downplay Hakubas feat goes against what the manga is showing us. For starters *visually speaking *its the most impressive speed feat in the manga, oda has never done anything like that before and we have had many villains in the past who were portrayed as very fast. Secondly his nick name, and the purpose of the chapter was hype for Hakuba in that he moves so fast people thought he was the wind itself(No one in one piece has gotten hype anything like that). Lastly Sabo a Top tier said what he did was fast.


Ignoring everything else a Top tier does not say something is fast if Sanji could easily deal with said speed which some people seem to think he can do that just makes no sense. Thats not me saying Hakuba would blitz Sanji all over the place, i'm just saying people think Hakubas speed is not even m3 tier. Which is absurd.


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

i never said Hakuba's speed is not M3 tier , i am just saying this speed is not enough to put him _ABOVE_ M3 or anyone on their level (Law, Jinbei etc.).

Edit: btw,i think in a 1 vs 1 fight one good hit on Hakuba will wake him up & end the Hakuba form . what do u think ?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> *i never said Hakuba's speed is not M3 tier* , i am just saying this speed is not enough to put him _ABOVE_ M3 or anyone on their level (Law, Jinbei etc.).



I know, i just went off with your post as you along with others bring up the Rebecca situation to downplay hakuba. 

To your last part that is fine, im just arguing against the Hakuba/Cavendish downplay and absurd statements like Sanji would low-diff Cavendish. There is nothing wrong with thinking Law, Jinbei ect can defeat hakuba.

Edit: Honestly i have no idea. it has yet to even be made clear if Cavendish can make himself go to sleep to bring out Hakuba, or if he has that disorder that makes him randomly fall asleep. How much control does Hakuba have after Rebecca got back up why did he not get back up? Why did cavendish stay asleep and not wake up after Hakubas rampage was over ect

Also another interesting question what happens if you knock out Cavendish? I mean really knock him out like luffy hits him upside the head with G3, does Hakuba come out?


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Also another interesting question what happens if you knock out Cavendish? I mean really knock him out like luffy hits him upside the head with G3, does Hakuba come out?



most likely.

Cavendish
Deathrattle : summon Hakuba


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> most likely.
> 
> Cavendish
> Deathrattle : summon Hakuba





Perhaps its a never ending cycle of Hakuba to Cavendish. Until of course you beat him so much he can no longer fight back(Or brain dead)


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## Shinthia (Oct 1, 2014)

i am not sure why Cav end his Hakuba form(because stamina ? ) & after ending Hakuba form why not wake up instead of keep on sleeping ?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Lionel Messi said:


> i am not sure why Cav end his Hakuba form(because stamina ? ) & after ending Hakuba form why not wake up instead of keep on sleeping ?



No idea.

My Initial thought was Hakuba is some kind of defense thing as he only showed up after those dudes tried to jump him and afterwards going to sleep despite rebecca getting back up. 

But that does not explain Hakuba going around cutting up civilians, so its not just self defense.


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## Coruscation (Oct 1, 2014)

It was made clear that Hakuba's speed is easily above base Luffy and Chinjao's when no one in the entire audience save Sabo and Doflamingo could see what happened yet only the weak commentator made the same comment in the duel of block C and Bartolomeo was easily following it whereas the same man had absolutely no idea what happened when Hakuba rampaged. It should be agreeable that Jimbei would have difficulty dealing with a swordsman with such a level of speed. He could stand in place and block a Jet Stamp with his great strength but it's a different story handling blindingly fast movements and cuts that can't blocked so easily across an extended period of time.


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## Veltpunch (Oct 1, 2014)

Luffee said:


> To my knowledge cnet's translation is considered credible and it says twice as strong. Which one are you using?


I pulled the MS scan (also credible) but I trust Cnet above all, so I'll give you that since his trans say it. However, it still begs the question of how impressive is Cavi? He himself has yet to do much of note, so naturally Hakuba would still be questioned as he doesn't have much either. Can you at least agree to that much? Not trying to have this debate for a week.



> As for speed, again Bastille referred to his strength I.e. Overall combat ability. If it was just his speed, I don't see why Bastille wouldn't just say that "Hakuba is faster" or he's "twice as fast".


Cavi has only been shown to gain a massive increase in speed by the transition to Haku. That much is fact, and he's known for the speed. It makes him a more formidable fighter, hence making him stronger. We need more to determine if any other stats (let alone all of them) are increased by the transition. 





> More like taking them out so fast that someone like Bart couldn't even see how it happened?* And Rebecca being  able to barely just avoid the full force of the hit is a testament to her ability(CoO + speed) and not a stab on Hakuba's ability.* Since we already know that how incredibly fast he was. Not to mention there are previous examples of much weaker characters reacting to stronger ones i.e. Zoro reacting to Kuma. Also, if neither Cav and Chinjao were serious, then doesn't that just open room for more abilities from Cav?(hence why it was a good feat). Not to mention this is just cavendish.


I dunno what's up with Bart, but Rebecca was able to see him. I understand that Bart couldn't see him. Can you understand that Rebecca could as well as react to him?

@Bold: It is when you constantly try and compare him to the M3. Especially sincea tired Luffy blitzed her while eating lunch, yet Haku couldn't get a clean hit on her. Doesn't look good for him since he hasn't accomplished very much to begin with.



Ryuksgelus said:


> Why? How is Sanji some incredible pinnacle of strength!? If Sanji is a 100 what is Caesar to you?


Despite Sanji not doing so well out the gate, he is still relatively close in strength to Luffy and Zoro. Sanji shouldn't have much trouble with CC, btw.





> If this is sarcasm, the point is I already addressed the stuff you brought up. So how does it make sense to counter with the exact same stuff?


Don't worry about it.





> That is exactly what you're doing though :/? It's not disregarding what I don't like. It's calling it for how it is and asking why this cannot be another case where this feat will be totally invalidated by later feats.


Wait...are you comparing Diamante's apparently slower attack (than Hakuba) which struck Rebecca to Hakuba's attack? IIRC, Rebecca was still hysterical from Diamante telling her that he killed her mother at the time...whereas she was in battle mode in block D. If that isn't what you mean, then please elaborate? 



> _Not at the time. _ We had no reason to believe Hyozou would be such a nobody until he was shown as such. People were claiming Monet was stronger than Caesar or the Big Dragon up until Zoro scared her senseless with a display of power.


Okay, so any one that ragged on Luffy for that knew better by the end of FI. Cavi's justification has yet to come. You can bank on something like that happening personally, but you shouldn't try and use such a hypothetical situation in a debate.





> Because she was dead last and Hakuba was slowing down at that point. Even then all she did was move her head narrowly by an inch.


Where did it say he was slowing down?

Also the fact of the matter is, she could see, and react to him...while Luffy blitzed her while eating lunch.





> M.Trio level characters are extremely powerful. Generic blows almost completely incapacitate the next step down such as Gladius, Franky, Caesar, Hody, etc. So the idea people much weaker than the former group can take a blow at all is nothing but plot. Both Tashigi&Rebecca taking even the slightest blow should have had their heads cracked open but they weren't for dramatic effect. You see that in the Diamante's case but don't treat Hakuba's the same.


TBH, this just sounds like an excuse to me. Despite Vergo using BH on Tashigi, I doubt he really wanted to kill her. At least not right then and there. How many fodder Marines survived his Shigan? Regarding Diamante, again, he was toying with Rebecca. This is evident by him laughing and taunting her. Anyway, Haku's case is different. Would she have been knocked out had she taken the full force of the attack? Possibly...but she didn't. She was able to see him and react to avoid the brunt of the attack. These situations are different.





> How so? DCJ and Cav are not fodder to Luffy.


We know DCJ isn't. Cav is another story. Luffy could have defeated him when he grabbed his sword with ease if he truly wanted to. 





> If they were they would have never gotten a scene where DCJ ended up looking the most impressive.


Using DCJ's glory to put Cavi on a pedestal?


> It's a very simple portrayal that would make sense any other time but now suddenly because it involves Cav it does not :/?


Which part of Cavi's glorious portrayal are you talking about? Stopping DCJ's non-serious attack? He's gotten his just due for that, from me, at least...but it still isn't really that impressive. At least not as serious as you're trying to make it out to be.  





> Cav is only a bit weaker than someone who matched Luffy in physical strength.


 Nothing suggests that Cavi is near Chinjao in strength. 





> Hakuba should be much stronger than Cav. Not a simple power-up, like a Zoan transformation, based on his hype.


I'll say Hakuba is close-ish to Chinjao, but nothing puts him on or above Chinjao's level, and by "level" I mean Chinjao's exact placement.


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## Veltpunch (Oct 1, 2014)

> Absolutely? Why the hell not? See this is what does not make a lick of sense. He is a strong fighter of the New World who is praised by a VA for his strength and has gone unchecked for 3 years.


How many "strong fighters from the NW" entered this tourney? How many of them could hold a candle to the M3?"cat That alone doesn't even put him within Luffy's scope. Wasn't Croc hinted to be a NW veteran? He was still only a pre-skip M3 level fighter. How about the hardly known (yet known) commanders on WB's ship? Been in the NW for decades, yet still aren't that strong. 





> His worse feat is having his sword caught by Luffy. He still managed to slam Luffy into the floor and if he was as weak as most people are to Luffy he would have been literally flung away even with Luffy's condition.


Cavendish's worse feat is that, I guess. Haku's worse feat is failing to get a clean hit on Rebecca. Note that he only got the opportunity to act because Luffy was standing there just holding the blade. In a real fight, Luffy would have went in dry. I daresay we would have seen Cavi get one-shot. 




> So I'm the one grasping at straws yet your main point against Hakuba is that Rebecca narrowly stopped her head from being chopped off?


I have a couple of points that have been addressed. I don't really care to list them all again, so for a recap, read my old posts.





> Why do you get to arbitrarily decide what is not good/serious hype? He is not just in the New World. He is not just been* in* the New World. And how does a feat where he clearly stalemated a M.Trio level fighter not indicate he is in there ballpark of power?


If you've been reading the manga, you can tell strong hype from wishful thinking. Compare Shanks' hype to Cavi's. Relax. He matched one blow against a non-serious DCJ. Ace stalemated Aokiji ONCE. Zoro stalemated Aokiji ONCE. Zoro stalemated Fuji ONCE, yet who's going to sit here and argue that Ace and Zoro are near/on Admiral level?





> How do they not? They stalemated. Cav having the physical strength to keep DCJ head suspended in air is canon.


And he got his props for it. The feat simply isn't as impressive as you'd like it to be. 





> That is his only strength feat. If he was much weaker he would not have stood his ground. Please don't bring up DCJ not using Haki because that is beyond the point.


Well, him not using Haki is relevant...So Zoro is as physically strong as Aokiji, confirmed.



> No it didn't. It ended when *DCJ *decided he wanted to end it. No suicidal clash and Luffy would still be trying to pound away with normal jet and hardened attacks. The fight was nothing


Once Luffy brought out the big guns it was GG.





> like Hody facing Luffy that only escalated because Luffy was messing around.


Not entirely, but he kept on using moves that he saw were either inneffective or doing minimal damage up until El Thor...which was GG. 





> No, it escalated because Luffy had to go with something as dramatic as an El Thor. I'm 100% sure Luffy thought Hawk Rifle would do a lot more than it did to DCJ and that was when he decided to end it but failed.


Aaaand that's conjecture on your part. 



> Straws apparently = any indication of Cav/Hakuba's power level in the series that goes against your views.


Not really. His resume just sucks. I wouldn't hire him.


> Rebecca scene means a lot but every other feat, statement, and a clear sign of significance above other characters means nothing :/.


Are you new to OP? If it can happen to someone like Mihawk, it can happen to Cavi/Hakuba. The difference being, Mihawk has strong hype and portrayal, and Cavi doesn't. He isn't very impressive in feats, hype not portrayal. That ain't my fault.


> I am not grasping at straws. You're just cherry picking what you want to take into account when judging a character. Type of arguments made for Cav have been used time and time again and proven true but now suddenly they mean shit because you say so.






> Soo...there is* no* possibility Cav gets Trebol or him switching with Kyros or, heaven forbid, Hakuba goes on a rampage that does endanger all of them?


It isn't impossible. Just not very probable, and again, you're banking on something like this to happen. Your castle is built on sand. You aren't taking current feats etc for what they are, only for what you want them to be and you're adding your own expectations into the mix as well. 





> There is no possibility of that couch spread meaning anything? Seems pretty strange for Oda to do such a thing for shits and giggles.


It isn't impossible, but let's be serious...





> I'm sorry but it makes no sense to pack the couch with 3 SN and then another pretty boy *just because*. It could have simply been just the three of them instead of planting ideas in peoples' head.


...So is it the presence of an actual couch that makes you think so highly of this particular cover art..? You didn't seem too concerned with when I pointed out that Bart shared a cover art with Luffy and Zoro I believe. You still don't seem to think too much of him. Rebecca also shared one with Luffy, no? You also knocked on Kyros for being in the background, yet which of the two is fighting an exec right now? No, he didn't make it to the big comfy couch, but he's still apparently more relevant than Cavi.


> No, it's clear portrayal ahead of everyone else not on the couch.





> You keep claiming I'm grasping at straws because I am not disregarding Bastille's Hype and Oda focus on him(an entire Chapter&Spread). Those are not straws!


You're right!! They're.....bendy straws... (ba-dum-tss)

Nah, but I'm not disregarding Bastille's hype. It means the same even if it would have come out the mouth of Sakazuki: Haku is twice as strong as Cavi...but Cavi isn't that impressive to begin with. That isn't my fault.





> Oh no. This is a very important question. You are so convinced you're right about Cav/Hakuba and I and many others are the "wankers" reading too much into superfluous details like hype from a VA and presence on that couch with the 3 other main players of the arc I must know.


Based on what we've seen so far, I'm convinced...for now. Obviously new developments and feats could change that. I'm not saying nothing can change. I'm just not putting my faith in expectations.



> Would Hakuba being a powerhouse and Cav as strong as I believe be an asspull to you?


As long as he doen' turn around and stalemate/beat an Admiral level fighter, no.


> IE everything I'm saying is still wank and it's coincidence it turned out the way I believe.


If it does, then cheers to you. I wouldn't lose any sleep. 





> Or the writing was on the all this entire time and you and some others will just disappear like the Trebol losing to Ussop brigade, Zoro matching Fuji group, and Franky beating Pica party?


I'd probably disappear" because I get lost sometimes...Not for a pitiful reason like that. Hahaha...haha...ha...*cries*


> AKA downplaying fools who refused to believe something obvious, due to strange bias,  and was clearly being foreshadowed.








> No there is plenty and you're just talking nonsense for whatever inconceivable reason.


There's plenty of evidence supporting...Cavi being as strong as Sanji? I don't even like Sanji that much, but you're seriously downplaying him if you honestly believe that based on what has been shown thus far.





> Asinine? Comparing Cav to *Sanji* is *asinine*.


It is. 





> When did Sanji become some incredible pinnacle of strength no one but non-retired Veterans, strongest VA, and Yonkou commanders can match!?


The better question is, what has Cavi done to put him within Sanji's scope?



> This is mind boggling to me that Cav being a lower tier M.Trio level fighter is an even remotely absurd notion.


Call it what you want, he has done nothing oputting him close to Sanji, period. 





> This place has seriously went to hell.


You only just realized that?


> What logic is going into a scale that has DCJ a 40 to Sanji's 100 @_@.


You never seen me say that and frankly I'm not touching that:cantt





> If Sanji is a 95 to Luffy's 100 there is nothing asinine about Cav being a 92-94 :/.


Lol, there definitely is with what he's shown. 





> There would be no question if he was a flipping 85.


TBH, 85 is still probably too much. 





> Oda would make it obvious not leave, according to you, a handful of red herrings lying around giving _some _people different ideas.




Can we just agree to disagree? This is getting boring.


----------



## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 1, 2014)

Dat Cavendish underestimation in this forum is ridiculous...is it because he is a pretty boy?  

Bart is a One year supernova and look how powerful he is without even showing us that much. 

Cavendish is a Three year supernova and has been given more hype for his strength then Bart(Called strong by chinjao and a prodigy swordsmen by Bastille), and yet somehow he is so much weaker then Sanji to the point of almost being fodder to him.


----------



## Chrollo Lucilfer (Oct 1, 2014)

*Spoiler*: __ 





Veltpunch said:


> I pulled the MS scan (also credible) but I trust Cnet above all, so I'll give you that since his trans say it. However, it still begs the question of how impressive is Cavi? He himself has yet to do much of note, so naturally Hakuba would still be questioned as he doesn't have much either. Can you at least agree to that much? Not trying to have this debate for a week.
> 
> Cavi has only been shown to gain a massive increase in speed by the transition to Haku. That much is fact, and he's known for the speed. It makes him a more formidable fighter, hence making him stronger. We need more to determine if any other stats (let alone all of them) are increased by the transition.
> 
> ...





Veltpunch said:


> How many "strong fighters from the NW" entered this tourney? How many of them could hold a candle to the M3?"cat That alone doesn't even put him within Luffy's scope. Wasn't Croc hinted to be a NW veteran? He was still only a pre-skip M3 level fighter. How about the hardly known (yet known) commanders on WB's ship? Been in the NW for decades, yet still aren't that strong. Cavendish's worse feat is that, I guess. Haku's worse feat is failing to get a clean hit on Rebecca. Note that he only got the opportunity to act because Luffy was standing there just holding the blade. In a real fight, Luffy would have went in dry. I daresay we would have seen Cavi get one-shot.
> 
> 
> I have a couple of points that have been addressed. I don't really care to list them all again, so for a recap, read my old posts.
> ...






:tldr IDEK


----------



## Veltpunch (Oct 1, 2014)

My next post won't be as long. I'm pretty much done with this topic.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 1, 2014)

Veltpunch said:


> My next post won't be as long. I'm pretty much done with this topic.


I commend you for your dedication.


----------



## Ryuksgelus (Oct 1, 2014)

When Bart was on the Cover spread with Luffy I'm pretty sure it was one with ith many relevant people of the arc. This spread is clearly the three most prominent fighters in the arc......and another guy just because :/?


> I'd probably disappear" because I get lost sometimes...Not for a pitiful reason like that. Hahaha...haha...ha...*cries*



Are you serious? You're the one insulting others ideas, staunchly opposed to them, and claiming they are sooo improbable they are nothing but "fanboy wetdreams", yet now you want to pretend it would matter if you were wrong. What kind of idiot takes such a strong stance on anything they don't care that much about? That is like giving  a decent amount of money to a political campaign then not voting at all :/?



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Dat Cavendish underestimation in this forum is ridiculous...is it because he is a pretty boy?
> 
> Bart is a One year supernova and look how powerful he is without even showing us that much.
> 
> Cavendish is a Three year supernova and has been given more hype for his strength then Bart(Called strong by chinjao and a prodigy swordsmen by Bastille), and yet somehow he is so much weaker then Sanji to the point of almost being fodder to him.



It truly is incredible. He actually quoted fragments of my sentences and confidently thinks he is making good points.


----------



## Veltpunch (Oct 2, 2014)

Tea said:


> I commend you for your dedication.


Thanks, man. Who would have thought that my first book would be written here.


----------



## Amol (Oct 3, 2014)

Jimbei wins high diff, at worst extreme diff but he would still win.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 3, 2014)

Veltpunch said:


> Thanks, man. Who would have thought that my first book would be written here.


Have you thought of a title for it?


Amol said:


> Jimbei wins high diff, at worst extreme diff but he would still win.


Mid at worst for me. Rebecca (the fodder who Luffy fodderized while eating lunch) reacted to Hakuba. Jimbei shouldn't have any issues doing the same.


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## Sabox (Oct 3, 2014)

i see winbe winning with devil fruit powers


----------



## Luke (Oct 3, 2014)

He also wins because he's much stronger than Hakuba is.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 3, 2014)

Luke said:


> He also wins because he's much stronger than Hakuba is.


I don't understand how blitzing a bunch of fodder (one of whom dodged Hakuba) is so impressive to some.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 3, 2014)

Tea said:


> I don't understand how blitzing a bunch of fodder (one of whom dodged Hakuba) is so impressive to some.



I agree Kizaru blitzing Drake, hawkins, and Appo was not impressive at all they were hella fodder back then.

Don't know why so many people were riding his dick, some still do.


----------



## Typhon (Oct 3, 2014)

Jimbei wins. Even with Hakuba's supposed amazing speed in relation to M3 level fighters, Jimbei has omni-directional attacks that can bypass any defense Hakuba throws up. And if Jimbei can block a magma fist from an Admiral, I'd expect him to be able to block Hakuba.

Just as people don't get the Cav underestimation, I don't get the overestimation. It seems ridiculous to scale Hakuba past the M3 after his minimal showings. Bart couldn't keep up with him? Bellamy was taking Bart on... Bellamy! Sabo and Diamante could keep up with Hakuba's speed as well iirc.


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## Luke (Oct 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I agree Kizaru blitzing Drake, hawkins, and Appo was not impressive at all they were hella fodder back then.
> 
> Don't know why so many people were riding his dick, some still do.



This is the second time Hakuba has been compared to an Admiral in this thread.

Christ.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 3, 2014)

Luke said:


> This is the second time Hakuba has been compared to an Admiral in this thread.
> 
> Christ.


So...any ideas WHY people think it's appropriate to compare Hakuba to Kizaru or Green Bull (thank God Sakazuki and Issho have been spared that so far )?


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## Luke (Oct 3, 2014)

Next on the OPD: 

Zoro is a low Top Tier.


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## Ruse (Oct 3, 2014)

Tea said:


> I don't understand how blitzing a bunch of fodder (one of whom dodged Hakuba) is so impressive to some.



I do think his speed was impressive I don't even think Luffy could clear out a block that fast, however it doesn't mean we should automatically put Hakuba over other M3 lvl characters. (Jinbei, Luffy etc)


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 3, 2014)

Typhon said:


> Jimbei wins. Even with Hakuba's supposed amazing speed in relation to M3 level fighters, Jimbei has omni-directional attacks that can bypass any defense Hakuba throws up. And if Jimbei can block a magma fist from an Admiral, I'd expect him to be able to block Hakuba.
> 
> Just as people don't get the Cav underestimation, I don't get the overestimation. It seems ridiculous to scale Hakuba past the M3 after his minimal showings. Bart couldn't keep up with him? Bellamy was taking Bart on... Bellamy! Sabo and Diamante could keep up with Hakuba's speed as well iirc.



I'm having a brain fart so help me out here.

What is this Omni-Directional attack? I honestly dont recall it or I am but im mis informed on what omni directional actually means.


Luke said:


> This is the second time Hakuba has been compared to an Admiral in this thread.
> 
> Christ.



Is that a problem?

They are all characters in the same manga so if the situation comes up whats the problem with comparing two events that happend. 

Unless by compare your implying someone is saying that Cavendish\Hakuba is admiral level or has a admiral level feat then my responce is.


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## Typhon (Oct 3, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I'm having a brain fart so help me out here.
> 
> What is this Omni-Directional attack? I honestly dont recall it or I am but im mis informed on what omni directional actually means.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 3, 2014)

Thanks for the link, yea forgot all about that.


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## Veltpunch (Oct 4, 2014)

Tea said:


> Have you thought of a title for it?


Not yet, but that'll have to wait. Did I justy see someone compare an Admiral to Hakuba?


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## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 4, 2014)

Luke said:


> Next on the OPD:
> 
> Zoro is a low Top Tier.


Unless I'm mistaken, that actually was said not too long ago.


Veltpunch said:


> Not yet, but that'll have to wait. Did I justy see someone compare an Admiral to Hakuba?


It has happened twice now... Wonder what AK will say when he sees this?


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## Datassassin (Oct 4, 2014)

We haven't seen the extent of Cavendish/Hakuba's swordplay but I'll say Jinbe loses. Hakuba supposedly has double the overall strength of someone who seems _at least_ Sanji-level, a level Jinbe himself is above but not _that_ much above. Jinbe probably gets sliced up.


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## barreltheif (Oct 4, 2014)

^Cavendish isn't Sanji level, WTF? He's closer to Franky.
I still think Hakuba wins, though.

Also, what's wrong with comparing Hakuba's first feats with Kizaru's? They're very similar. That doesn't mean they're similar in strength.


----------



## Orca (Oct 4, 2014)

Veltpunch said:
			
		

> I pulled the MS scan (also credible) but I trust Cnet above all, so I'll give you that since his trans say it. However, it still begs the question of how impressive is Cavi? He himself has yet to do much of note, so naturally Hakuba would still be questioned as he doesn't have much either. Can you at least agree to that much? Not trying to have this debate for a week.



>Considers cnet to be above all.
> Asks everyone where the twice as strong thing is coming from using MS scans.
> 



> Can you at least agree to that much?



Agree to what? That Hakuba is at best equal to DCJ? Nope can't do. Since we don't know how strong Cav is but then you went on and put a upper limit on Hakuba's strength  Like can we atleast agree that since we don't know how strong Cav is, it's open to interpretation how strong Hakuba can be base on hype and portrayal?



> Cavi has only been shown to gain a massive increase in speed by the transition to Haku. That much is fact, and he's known for the speed. It makes him a more formidable fighter, hence making him stronger. We need more to determine if any other stats (let alone all of them) are increased by the transition.



Bastille says twice as strong. Not twice as fast. Being twice as fast would definitely make you strong but wouldn't make you twice as strong in overall combat ability. So I don't see why Bastille wouldn't specifically mention just speed if that was all that mattered.



> I dunno what's up with Bart, but Rebecca was able to see him. I understand that Bart couldn't see him. Can you understand that Rebecca could as well as react to him?



Yes I understand that and elaborated on it. Or did you miss that?



> @Bold: It is when you constantly try and compare him to the M3. Especially since tired Luffy blitzed her while eating lunch, yet Haku couldn't get a clean hit on her. Doesn't look good for him since he hasn't accomplished very much to begin with.



Zoro reacted to Kuma. Nothing new here. Rebecca is fodder to Hakuba based on what we've seen. Or are you going to argue she isn't?


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## Datassassin (Oct 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> ^Cavendish isn't Sanji level, WTF? He's closer to Franky.
> I still think Hakuba wins, though.



I definitely don't think Oda would have Franky fully counter a blow from Chinjao's head and have Chinjao compliment him afterwords.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 4, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> ^Cavendish isn't Sanji level, WTF? He's closer to Franky.
> I still think Hakuba wins, though.
> 
> Also, what's wrong with comparing Hakuba's first feats with Kizaru's? They're very similar. That doesn't mean they're similar in strength.



A Three year supernova Captain closer to Franky then Sanji.

How about nope.


----------



## Veltpunch (Oct 4, 2014)

Tea said:


> Unless I'm mistaken, that actually was said not too long ago.
> 
> It has happened twice now... Wonder what AK will say when he sees this?


When do you suppose they'll learn?



Luffee said:


> >Considers cnet to be above all.
> > Asks everyone where the twice as strong thing is coming from using MS scans.
> >


8/10 you can find the MS panel and it will say the same or something very close to the cnet trans. Needless to say, panels are easier to find. I've already admitted to being wrong there, but I suppose the Hakuba camp needs to cling on something. Want a bone?





> Agree to what? That Hakuba is at best equal to DCJ? Nope can't do. Since we don't know how strong Cav is but then you went on and put a upper limit on Hakuba's strength  Like can we atleast agree that since we don't know how strong Cav is, it's open to interpretation how strong Hakuba can be base on hype and portrayal?


That wasn't mentioned in anything that you quoted...but no, close to DCJ. He has nothing putting him as DCJ's equal nor his superior, but if you're saying that putting him as an equal to Chinjao is "putting an upper cap on his strength", then aren't you inherently admitting that Cavi/Hakuba has shown nothing that inpressive to begin with? Lel Luffee. Anyway, that's what I was asking if we could agree on: that Cavi himself has shown nothing that impressive to date, so naturally Hakuba's strength would be questioned. Just because I'm tired of this debate.





> Bastille says twice as strong. Not twice as fast. Being twice as fast would definitely make you strong but wouldn't make you twice as strong in overall combat ability. So I don't see why Bastille wouldn't specifically mention just speed if that was all that mattered.


I believe Trance summed it up pretty well a couple pages back. Refer to what he said. Cavi gains nothing but an increase in speed from the transition to Haku.





> Yes I understand that and elaborated on it. Or did you miss that?


I just recall excuses as to why Rebecca was able to see him. If you feel you elaborated on it well, then I guess we can put this point to rest. Just know that it's still a strike against Hakuba.





> Zoro reacted to Kuma. Nothing new here. Rebecca is fodder to Hakuba based on what we've seen. Or are you going to argue she isn't?


You're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm not one that thinks too highly of Kuma, and that's a strong reason why. Nice fallacy, doe. Anyway, that's irrelevant. You're trying to compare Haku to the likes of the M3, who would each blitz Rebecca no problem. Haku was read and anticipated, while Luffy owns here while eating lunch.

If it'll make you feel better though, had the attack connected completely, Rebecca would have been KO'd. I'd like to point out that I never argued Rebecca stood a chance, just like you conveniently left out that Zoro never stood a chance against Kuma in your earlier fallacy.


Oh, and Top of the Lel to whoever said Cavi is close in strength to Sanji.


----------



## Orca (Oct 4, 2014)

> 8/10 you can find the MS panel and it will say the same or something very close to the cnet trans. Needless to say, panels are easier to find. I've already admitted to being wrong there, but I suppose the Hakuba camp needs to cling on something. Want a bone?



So looking up cnet was hard for you but wasting your fingers here asking people where the twice as strong stuffy was coming from was easy? But Since you admitted you're "wrong/bias", let's leave this issue  



> if you're saying that putting him as an equal to Chinjao is "putting an upper cap on his strength", then aren't you inherently admitting that Cavi/Hakuba has shown nothing that inpressive to begin with?



How does you putting a limit to Hakuba's strength equal to me admitting that Cav/Hakuba hasn't shown anything impressive? RIP logic 



> Lel Luffee. Anyway, that's what I was asking if we could agree on: that Cavi himself has shown nothing that impressive to date, so naturally Hakuba's strength would be questioned.



I don't agree with that. Cavendish had decent portrayal against Chinjao. Plus Hakuba's own portrayal was impressive in the colosseum finishing everyone without Bart even seeing what happened. That's pretty impressive.



> I believe Trance summed it up pretty well a couple pages back. Refer to what he said. Cavi gains nothing but an increase in speed from the transition to Haku.



What trance suggested was a theory. Which only tells us that increased speed = more impact. Nothing more nothing less. But if we are somewhat in agreement over the end results I.e. Increased speed + increase in attacking power then I don't see the issue. 



> I just recall excuses as to why Rebecca was able to see him. If you feel you elaborated on it well, then I guess we can put this point to rest.Just know that it's still a strike against Hakuba.



Like how buggy reacting to Akainu is a strike against Akainu?



> You're barking up the wrong tree here. I'm not one that thinks too highly of Kuma, and that's a strong reason why. Nice fallacy, doe.



K. I've got a Better example. How about buggy reacting to Akainu. Or you don't think highly of Akainu either 



> If it'll make you feel better though, had the attack connected completely, Rebecca would have been KO'd. I'd like to point out that I never argued Rebecca stood a chance, just like you conveniently left out that Zoro never stood a chance against Kuma in your earlier fallacy.



Conveniently? Like how would it hurt my case if I had mentioned it


----------



## Veltpunch (Oct 4, 2014)

Luffee said:


> So looking up cnet was hard for you but wasting your fingers here asking people where the twice as strong stuffy was coming from was easy? But Since you admitted you're "wrong/bias", let's leave this issue


Not hard, but less convenient than searching for the panels for me. Also the presence of the panel could inspire a new perspective on things, as well as maybe enlighten one on things we might have missed the first time over. Something that just words can't do. Anyway, being wrong =/= being bias, but whatevs. This is probably the one thing ou've been right about all week, so I'll let you savor the moment for as long as you'd like.





> How does you putting a limit to Hakuba's strength equal to me admitting that Cav/Hakuba hasn't shown anything impressive? RIP logic


You said that we don't know how strong Cavi is, but I put an "upper limit" on Hakuba by saying that he's at best, as strong as DCJ. Does "upper limit" not mean that I placed him that high after saying before that I don't know how strong he is? If that isn't what you meant, then you can't fault me for you being vague. Before I continue on this point, I want to know exactly what you meant by "upper limit."





> I don't agree with that. Cavendish had decent portrayal against Chinjao. Plus Hakuba's own portrayal was impressive in the colosseum finishing everyone without Bart even seeing what happened. That's pretty impressive.


Cavi did not accomplish much in his brief skirmish with DCJ. He got a good strength feat (still not a M3 level feat) but that's about it. DCJ wasn't serious, and we saw what he could do when he actually is and nothing Cavi nor Haku has shown indicates that they could match/beat that. Anyway, his coliseum portrayal wasn't all-that either. He solo'd a block of fodder and failed to accomplish what a tired Luffy eating lunch did with ease. So what if Bart couldn't see it? Frankly, he's another one that has yet to prove that he's that big a fish. Anyway, Rebecca (who is absolute fodder to any M3 level character) was the biggest name i block D next to Cavi, and she was able to read the movements of Haku as well as react to him. He has yet to justify this.





> What trance suggested was a theory. Which only tells us that increased speed = more impact. Nothing more nothing less. But if we are somewhat in agreement over the end results I.e. Increased speed + increase in attacking power then I don't see the issue.


Dude, that's real-life physics. The faster something moves, the harder it hits you. It's that simple, unless you're telling me that a car moving at 2mph will do just as much damage as one going 100mph. Hakuba is known only for speed. The momentum makes the attack pack more of a wallop, but this does not equate to an increase in strength. If Cavi couldn't pick up a boulder (this is an example), he still won't be able to as Hakuba, however if Cavi couldn't break a boulder using the momentum from his base speed, if the speed he gains as Hakuba is fast enough, the momentum he gains as his alter-ego could break said boulder. Get it?





> Like how buggy reacting to Akainu is a strike against Akainu?


Before I answer this, do you have a panel? I don't recall this....





> K. I've got a Better example. How about buggy reacting to Akainu. Or you don't think highly of Akainu either


..however, if this is true and it's outlier/pis free (doubt it), then my faith still lies with the man that could fight on equal terms with WB. This might as well be the third time that an Admiral is compared to Hakuba..pretty sad, but the fact that you chose to compare him to _*the*_ Admiral this time...is heart-breaking....





> Conveniently? Like how would it hurt my case if I had mentioned it


It just shows your own bias, really. Not only are you using a fallacy, but you're essentially saying "if you rag on Hakuba for this what about Kuma for this", yet you still continue to make excuses for Hakuba, but insist Kuma is nailed to the cross. The main excuse being that Rebecca isn't realistically a match for Hakuba...but you forgot to be consistent and mention that Zoro wasn't a match for Kuma either.

Also, Zoro reacted to Kuma, but the latter turned around and obliterated the entire SH crew. Rebecca reacted to Haku, and the latter turned around and.....we're waiting.


----------



## Daisuke Jigen (Oct 4, 2014)

@ Velt
I think he's talking about when Buggy caught Jimbei and Luffy when Croc Sabled them up to him, then he dodged Akainu's magma fist. Though I have no wonder why he's trying to use a comedy scene as an argument...and ffs not Akainu too...


----------



## Veltpunch (Oct 4, 2014)

Tea said:


> @ Velt
> I think he's talking about when Buggy caught Jimbei and Luffy when Croc Sabled them up to him, then he dodged Akainu's magma fist. Though I have no wonder why he's trying to use a comedy scene as an argument...and ffs not Akainu too...


Say it ain't so... He actually means _that_ scene? How far will they go? This is beyond sad... I think this calls for the mighty former FA facepalm.


----------



## barreltheif (Oct 5, 2014)

Hakuba is obviously far, far stronger than Cavendish. He was stated to be twice as strong.
Chinjao is about as strong as Cavendish, maybe a little stronger. He's currently fighting Lao G. Chinjao gave Luffy mid diff, whereas Cavendish would give him low-mid.
Hakuba is probably around Zoro/Luffy level. He'd high diff Jinbei.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 5, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> ^Cavendish isn't Sanji level, WTF? He's closer to Franky.
> I still think Hakuba wins, though.
> 
> Also, what's wrong with comparing Hakuba's first feats with Kizaru's? They're very similar. That doesn't mean they're similar in strength.



I don't know bro apparently the admirals are to holy for comparisons.

Perhaps I shoukd just use luffy from now on he gots a million things I could bring up lol.


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## Funk Soul B (Oct 5, 2014)

Coruscation has thoroughly invalidated the assertion that luffy pinning rebecca makes him faster than hakuba and the bullshit people are presenting about hakuba not being m3 level in many a thread ago

Hakuba high-high diff


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## Veltpunch (Oct 5, 2014)

barreltheif said:


> Hakuba is obviously far, far stronger than Cavendish. He was stated to be twice as strong.
> Chinjao is about as strong as Cavendish, maybe a little stronger. He's currently fighting Lao G. Chinjao gave Luffy mid diff, whereas Cavendish would give him low-mid.
> Hakuba is probably around Zoro/Luffy level. He'd high diff Jinbei.


Nothing points to Cavi being as strong as DCJ. Not even Hakuba has feats/hype/portrayal pointing to that, so I'm not sure where you got that bit of info from. Everyone is ignoring the fact that a tired Luffy easily stopped Cavi right in his tracks. The latter could not get his weapon back. Had that been a real fight, Luffy would have destroyed him. IMO, Jinbe is still above Luffy, even if only a little, but if the latter was indeed stronger, then it would be very marginal. I'm interested to know where you place Jinbei to thin Hakuba beats him, let alone with anything less that extreme-diff.



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> I don't know bro apparently the admirals are to holy for comparisons.
> 
> Perhaps I shoukd just use luffy from now on he gots a million things I could bring up lol.


What you and others seem to miss is that each Admiral that has been compared to Hakuba fought on equal terms as WB for a period of time. The Kizaru comparison was brought up to undermine him as the person who posted it feels Hakuba is being undermined. Do I have to explain why the comparison is asinine? 

Compare him to Luffy if you want. It'll get you nowhere, seeing how he's a big reason why anyone paying attention to the manga thus far knows Cavi isn't much.



Funk Soul B said:


> Coruscation has thoroughly invalidated the assertion that luffy pinning rebecca makes him faster than hakuba and the bullshit people are presenting about hakuba not being m3 level in many a thread ago
> 
> Hakuba high-high diff


Hakuba's faster than base Luffy because fodder and Bart couldn't see him?

That aside, it's primarily the portrayal. Luffy effortlessly pinned Rebecca (who is also known for her speed on top of being a KH user) down while eating lunch...Hakuba was seen and reacted to by Rebecca. There is no argument (that I know of) that puts Cavi/Hakuba on M3 level...not one that isn't built on sand, at least.


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## Coruscation (Oct 5, 2014)

It must be comfortable arguing under the belief that attempting to handwave all counterexamples, going "lel" and posting a lot of smilies at your opponents makes the proof that you're wrong go away.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 5, 2014)

Veltpunch said:


> Nothing points to Cavi being as strong as DCJ. Not even Hakuba has feats/hype/portrayal pointing to that, so I'm not sure where you got that bit of info from. Everyone is ignoring the fact that a tired Luffy easily stopped Cavi right in his tracks. The latter could not get his weapon back. Had that been a real fight, Luffy would have destroyed him. IMO, Jinbe is still above Luffy, even if only a little, but if the latter was indeed stronger, then it would be very marginal. I'm interested to know where you place Jinbei to thin Hakuba beats him, let alone with anything less that extreme-diff.
> 
> What you and others seem to miss is that each Admiral that has been compared to Hakuba fought on equal terms as WB for a period of time. The Kizaru comparison was brought up to undermine him as the person who posted it feels Hakuba is being undermined. Do I have to explain why the comparison is asinine?
> 
> ...



The kizaru example is to point out a double standard.

You were not here back in that time but people got mad hype back in the day when kizaru trolled the supernovas. My self included why? Because it was dame impressive. But when Oda has hakuba do visually the most impressive display of speed in this manga, apparently now its no big deal.

Both kizaru and Hakubas feats were agasint fodder its called portrayal and odas message could not be more obvious that hakuba and kizaru are meant to be espicailly fast even amongst their peers. Yet you and others try to downplay it because of rebecca, besides the fact this manga has hundreds of examples of fodder characters surviving and reacting to attacks from strong fighters.

You bring up the fact other charcters have other feats and hype. Well last time I checked cavendish let alone hakuba has much more hype then rebecca, and has a feat of dodging multiple punches from chinjao and blocking his head butt. 

These arguments agasint hakuba are frankly retarded and filled with double standards. To be clear I dont have a problem with people thinking Jinbei can win this fight, but crap like luffy can one shot cavendish easily, or is borderline fodder to sanji is just to much.


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## Veltpunch (Oct 5, 2014)

Coruscation said:


> It must be comfortable arguing under the belief that attempting to handwave all counterexamples, going "lel" and posting a lot of smilies at your opponents makes the proof that you're wrong go away.


Lel Coruscation.

Are you going to give an argument or pole measure? Anyway,



Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> The kizaru example is to point out a double standard.
> 
> You were not here back in that time but people got mad hype back in the day when kizaru trolled the supernovas. My self included why? Because it was dame impressive. But when Oda has hakuba do visually the most impressive display of speed in this manga, apparently now its no big deal.
> 
> ...


You also have to take into account who you're trying to compare the person to. Doing Kizaru first, his feat was very impressive, even while you look at it now (even more so when it happened). However, it is nothing when you hold it to a lot of his other feats. It also isn't the feat you pull while trying to say Kizaru is stronger than the other two of the OT, because in that debate, the feat isn't much, so yes. On a plane where you aren't comparing it to anything, or things that are obviously less impressive, the feat is very impressive, but how does soloing the pre-skip SNs look when held next to fighting on equal grounds with the WSM? Do you at least see what I mean? I see where you're coming from, but there's more to consider if you're going to compare Hakuba to an Admiral (doesn't even have to be an Admiral), which is why I don't advise it. Anyway, the lone feat of soloing his block  (more or less) is impressive,but you're trying to compare Cavi/Hakuba to the M3 while that is his best feat, which is terribly overshadowed by the things the M3 has accomplished so far. Jinbe included. Now let's take DCJ into account here. His feats don't drastically overshadow Haku's feat, but they are better. Pushing Luffy to mid-diff is literally better than anything Hakuba has done.

Now, as far as Hakuba's speed goes, I personally want to see more from him. He's fast, but anyone worth anything could see him no problem. Only fodder and Bart couldn't see him, which isn't all that impressive to me personally, if you're trying to compare him to the M3.

Dodging DCJ's non-serious headbutts are good lone feats. It was nothing of note for Luffy though. Kudos to Cavi, but again, it simply isn't as impressive as you'd like to hope. I'd argue pre-skip M3 could do the same agaisnt a casual DCJ. Obviously just the dodging part.

Cavi has no durability feats. We can't just fully dismiss chances of a one-shot by Luffy as things are now. Futhermore, it depends on what move he uses. Cavi isn't taking a Red-Hawk for example.


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## Kaiser (Oct 5, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> These arguments agasint hakuba are frankly retarded and filled with double standards. To be clear I dont have a problem with people thinking Jinbei can win this fight, but crap like luffy can one shot cavendish easily, or is borderline fodder to sanji is just to much.


I know right? It's for that reason i stopped debating here. Too much bias around Cavendish/Hakuba. What's the point in debating against a wall?


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Oct 5, 2014)

Veltpunch said:


> Lel Coruscation.
> 
> Are you going to give an argument or pole measure? Anyway,
> 
> ...



Here is the bottom line which I think is a main thing here.

Feats. You are focusing on feats which in this case is not a good thing. Cavendish has yet to have a 1v1 fight so focusing on feats will not give a accurate guess of his power he has not done shit he was just introduced this arc.

We should focus on hype and portrayal until he gets more feats, and his hype is certainly M3 level. Look at the seats not sure what your opnion is of them but all of them have pretty lack luster feats so far besides pica, and yet no one seems to think sanji could low-mid diff diamante. The reason being diamante has enough hype and portrayal to make people not think diamante is fodder to sanji.

Now if you think cavendish hype and portrayal is bad(relative) to m3 guys well their is really nothing I cN say to change your mind. Just have to agree to disagree.


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## Veltpunch (Oct 5, 2014)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Here is the bottom line which I think is a main thing here.
> 
> Feats. You are focusing on feats which in this case is not a good thing. Cavendish has yet to have a 1v1 fight so focusing on feats will not give a accurate guess of his power *he has not done shit* he was just introduced this arc.


We're progressing. I'm glad to see you say that. For what it's worth, if you're simply scaling him to the gladiators introduced, he's up there with DCJ and Bart, so I wouldn't say his feats are shit. They just aren't that good when compared to the M3, and that's just going by what has been shown _thus far_. Obviously things can change by the end of the arc. That's one thing that I never ruled out. We just can't dismiss feats.



> We should focus on hype and portrayal until he gets more feats, and his hype is certainly M3 level. Look at the seats not sure what your opnion is of them but all of them have pretty lack luster feats so far besides pica, and yet no one seems to think sanji could low-mid diff diamante. The reason being diamante has enough hype and portrayal to make people not think diamante is fodder to sanji.
> 
> Now if you think cavendish hype and portrayal is bad(relative) to m3 guys well their is really nothing I cN say to change your mind. Just have to agree to disagree.


Yeah, we'll just have to agree to disagree.

Regarding the seats, though, they're a disappointment as well, for me, at least but that's the case for most of the new characters, including Bart. For the seats, though, their feats are proving to be detrimental and contradictory of their previous hype. Depending on how Zoro vs Pica finishes (frankly, I think it's done) then Sanji likely could low-diff Diamanate. Pica was said to be the strongest of the three, no? Yet Zoro is manhandling him, so we'll see. Don't think it's just Cavi for me. As I just said, I'm really only impressed with DCJ out of all of the gladiators/DD family introduced in this arc.


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## Ruse (Oct 5, 2014)

Kaiser said:


> I know right? It's for that reason i stopped debating here. *Too much bias* around Cavendish/Hakuba. What's the point in debating against a wall?



You could say that for multiple characters on here, don't act like it only applies to Hakuba.


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## Kaiser (Oct 5, 2014)

ThatBlackGuy said:


> You could say that for multiple characters on here, don't act like it only applies to Hakuba.


We're debating about Cavendish/Hakuba, so i only talked about him


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## GIORNO (Oct 7, 2014)

Hakuba is featless, Jimbei solos.


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## Monster (Oct 7, 2014)

Hakuba high to extreme difficulty.


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