# Luffy VS Marco



## Zero (Feb 28, 2020)

Current Manga Luffy vs Marco

Location: Random Island

(No Seastone Cuffs allowed!!!)


( Just you wait, Marco )


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## Bonly Jr. (Feb 28, 2020)

Easy Dub for Joy boy


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## Steven (Feb 28, 2020)

Ruffy

Not sure about the diff


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## Corax (Feb 28, 2020)

Luffy. If he could fight Kata in base for 13 or so hours I think that he has enough stamina to do the same vs Marco and finish him in snakeman/boundman once regen runs out. Though if Marco can fight on this lvl for more than 13 hours?Well I don't know since he has no stamina feats.


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## Ludi (Feb 28, 2020)

Luffy, I just dont see Marco beating him, so in the end Luffy probably wins, high/extreme diff for now


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## Zoro20 (Feb 28, 2020)

Luffy isn't losing to a first mate at this stage
he needs to be considerably stronger that YC1 to stand a chance against Kaidou

all the jokes end here
no to mention we're not that far from the endgame anymore


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## Zero (Feb 28, 2020)

Corax said:


> Luffy. If he could fight Kata in base for 13 or so hours I think that he has enough stamina to do the same vs Marco and finish him in snakeman/boundman once regen runs out. Though if Marco can fight on this lvl for more than 13 hours?Well I don't know since he has no stamina feats.


Marco's DF ability implies that he can fight that long or longer as well even without feats. 
I agree, Luffy should defiantly be able to beat him in Boundman/Snakeman. I don't think Marco has great enough destructive power to put Luffy down.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 28, 2020)

Marco.

Luffy hasn’t shown to dish out the level of damage Marco took and regenerated effortlessly at MF .

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

I tend to believe Marco is >= Kaidou (Yeah hate incoming I’m sure), but in Japanese mythology the Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon. Also Marco was at the bottom of Top Tier which is where I believe Kaidou is. And both present the same challenge to Luffy of how to do actual meaningful damage to them, but I think it’s actually harder to deal with Marco ability. So I think Luffy probably isn’t quite on that level yet


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## Zero (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I tend to believe Marco is >= Kaidou (Yeah hate incoming I’m sure), but in Japanese mythology the Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon. Also Marco was at the bottom of Top Tier which is where I believe Kaidou is. And both present the same challenge to Luffy of how to do actual meaningful damage to them, but I think it’s actually harder to deal with Marco ability. So I think Luffy probably isn’t quite on that level yet


So Marco is Yonko level theoretically?



Sherlōck said:


> Luffy hasn’t shown to dish out the level of damage Marco took and regenerated effortlessly at MF .


That's true, he's taken a Magma Fist from Akainu and Kizaru beams, but to be fair I dont think Marco has shown the level of  damage to hurt Luffy.
But with the new Advanced COA ability Luffy would be a major problem for Marco, depending on how much it's been mastered by him.


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## trance (Feb 28, 2020)

turrin just keeps raising the bar


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

FlyingBison said:


> So Marco is Yonko level theoretically?
> 
> 
> That's true, he's taken a Magma Fist from Akainu and Kizaru beams, but to be fair I dont think Marco has shown the level of  damage to hurt Luffy.
> But with the new Advanced COA ability Luffy would be a major problem for Marco, depending on how much it's been mastered by him.


Yeah I place Marco at the very bottom of Yonko level. It’s implied he had a chance to beat Teach and take over as a Yonko; he failed, but it’s Teach, so I don’t take that away from him; as I doubt Kaidou or Big Mom would have been able to beat Teach and the BB pirates especially if their army was weakened from fight a war previously



trance said:


> turrin just keeps raising the bar


You act as if WB other FM didn’t also beat Kaidou’s ass


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## trance (Feb 28, 2020)

oden > marco is clearly established

so marco doesnt scale to him

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## Draco Bolton (Feb 28, 2020)

Current Luffy somewhere between mid and high diff. Boundman+Advanced CoA destroy Marco and his regeneration (and with FS, Marco will never touch Luffy).

And if Marco still resists the first assault (if current Luffy is still so vulnerable at the end of the G4), Current Luffy should be able to resist long enough (seeing his fight against Katakuri, his training in Udon after his defeat against Kaido. His stamina must be monstrous by now...) until he can get his Haki back. Even if Marco is a Zoan, he will never One Shot Luffy or crush him with his physical strength.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

trance said:


> oden > marco is clearly established
> 
> so marco doesnt scale to him


How is that clearly established....


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## Amol (Feb 28, 2020)

Ignore Turrin. 
He has never met logic in his life. It is always fanfiction with him. 
Dear lord how the fuck Beast pirates survived for this long if Marco was capable of beating Kaido? 
I mean WB and Marco could have themselves solo'd entire Beast Pirates if that was possible. So much for balance of power. 
Anyway ignoring that retarded notion, Luffy should win. He has no hope of surviving against Kaido if he is still weaker than Yonkou FM. He got one shotted after all. He needs to be vastly better than that to not get one shotted again. On YFM level Luffy had neither offence(he didn't even manage to give bloody lip to him) nor defense(he got one shotted) against Kaido. So naturally he has to be lot better than that. I believe Luffy is right now YFM+ level given the gigantic gap that exists between Yonkou and YFM. 
Marco is just on YFM level so after a drawn out fight(thanks to Marco's DF), Luffy wins.


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## Ludi (Feb 28, 2020)

If Marco >= Kaido and WB >(>>) Marco then Kaido should have been totally and utterly destroyed long time ago, unless beast pirates - Kaido < WB pirates - Marco, which is impossible. I dont buy that. I think Marco is between YFM and low Admiral < Yonko or Akainu (and likely Aokiji)


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2020)

Marco extreme diff right now

Post Wano luffy should beat him extreme/ high diff

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## Mercurial (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I tend to believe Marco is >= Kaidou (Yeah hate incoming I’m sure), but in Japanese mythology the Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon. Also Marco was at the bottom of Top Tier which is where I believe Kaidou is. And both present the same challenge to Luffy of how to do actual meaningful damage to them, but I think it’s actually harder to deal with Marco ability. So I think Luffy probably isn’t quite on that level yet



Pal, Marco was never Top Tier, not even the lowest of low of Top Tier. He was literally trashed away by a casual punch from Garp, and never tried again after that, her seemed like a chick stomped by a giant compared to Garp. Marco's CoA was not strong enough to even overcome Akainu's Rogia and damage Akainu's real body with the slightest wound, even if Marco tried a surprise attack against the Admiral. Also another surprise attack from Marco did literally nothing to Aokiji, and Marco's direct attack on Kizaru did nothing as well, with the latter even trolling the former ("Oooh, that did hurt..." "You liar!").

I really really doubt that a Top Tier would be trashed by another Top Tier or unable to put even the slightest damage, even with a surprise attack, to another Top Tier.

Marco is strong, definitely, but far from Top Tier level.

*God Tier*

Roger / Prime Whitebeard / Prime Garp

*Top Tier*

Admirals / Yonkos / Dragon / Old Garp / Mihawk

*Low Top Tier
*
Oden / Old Rayleigh / Old Sengoku / maybe Post Wano Rufy etc

*High High Tier
*
Current Rufy / First Mates like Katakuri, Marco etc

*High Tier*

Yonko Commanders

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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Pal, Marco was never Top Tier, not even the lowest of low of Top Tier. He was literally trashed away by a casual punch from Garp, and never tried again after that, her seemed like a chick stomped by a giant compared to Garp. Marco's CoA was not strong enough to even overcome Akainu's Rogia and damage Akainu's real body with the slightest wound, even if Marco tried a surprise attack against the Admiral. Also another surprise attack from Marco did literally nothing to Aokiji, and Marco's direct attack on Kizaru did nothing as well, with the latter even trolling the former ("Oooh, that did hurt..." "You liar!").
> 
> I really really doubt that a Top Tier would be trashed by another Top Tier or unable to put even the slightest damage, even with a surprise attack, to another Top Tier.
> 
> ...


You assume Kaidou would do better; which I don’t see any evidence for


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## Mercurial (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You assume Kaidou would do better; which I don’t see any evidence for


Well, I think that Akainu, Shanks and Old Whitebeard are > Kaido and Big Mom, while Aokiji and Kizaru are more or less on par.

But do you think that Old Garp would stomp away Kaido like a chick?
That Akainu would not be even fazed by a SURPRISE attack from Kaido?
Well... that is an exxageration.

Marco is First Mate level, he can be stronger or weaker than Katakuri, but he is more or less on that level. And that level is far from Admiral/Yonko level. Even the lowest Admiral/Yonko is far stronger than the strongest First Mate.


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Even the lowest Admiral/Yonko is far stronger than the strongest First Mate.


I got high hopes for Ben Beckman though.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well, I think that Akainu, Shanks and Old Whitebeard are > Kaido and Big Mom, while Aokiji and Kizaru are more or less on par.
> 
> But do you think that Old Garp would stomp away Kaido like a chick?
> That Akainu would not be even fazed by a SURPRISE attack from Kaido?
> ...


If by stomp you mean be able to punch Kaidou away; then yes. Luffy is going to do that this arc after advanced CoA; which I would imagine is at best equal to Garps.

When was Aokiji not phased by a surprise attack from Marco?
—-

Marco is above FM level; which is why he had a chance of becoming a Yonko after WB died. WB pirates are next level.

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## Mercurial (Feb 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> I got high hopes for Ben Beckman though.


Maybe. Not because of the "Hands up, Kizaru" thing, because that was Kizaru casually trolling him, as the very next second he could not care less about Ben and immediately continued to follow Rufy as he was doing already.

But mostly because Ben is in Shanks's crew, which is hyped to be the one with the strongest members.


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## Mercurial (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> If by stomp you mean be able to punch Kaidou away; then yes. Luffy is going to do that this arc after advanced CoA; which I would imagine is at best equal to Garps.
> 
> When was Aokiji not phased by a surprise attack from Marco?
> —-
> ...


Well Marco charged the platform all kind of "I am going to save the day" then Garp appeared right in front of him (not from behind; from the very front), punched him without Marco being able to defend, and Marco was beated to the ground and bruised in spite of the instant regeneration. And never tried to attack after that. So it is a clear portrayal that Old Garp >> Marco. I do not think that Old Garp is >> Kaido. Prime Garp high diffs if not mid diffs Kaido, but Old Garp is at the very very best on par with Kaido.

Aokiji was hit (he wasn't paying attention to Marco, he was going to attack Rufy) but had absolutely no real damage at all.

He had no chance. Teach and his men stomped Marco and his men, indeed. The Gorosei were just talking about being the only one who could stop Teach's rise to Whitebeard's old territories; because Marco was Whitebeard's "successor". When they actually fought, Teach stomped Marco. I think that Teach would defeat Kaido, but not stomp him.


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## Beast (Feb 28, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Maybe. Not because of the "Hands up, Kizaru" thing, because that was Kizaru casually trolling him, as the very next second he could not care less about Ben and immediately continued to follow Rufy as he was doing already.
> 
> But mostly because Ben is in Shanks's crew, which is hyped to be the one with the strongest members.


A bit of headcanon and the hype he has received is enough. 

I was hyped by the Kizaru confrontation but that isn’t really anything special.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

Raikiri19 said:


> Well Marco charged the platform all kind of "I am going to save the day" then Garp appeared right in front of him (not from behind; from the very front), punched him without Marco being able to defend, and Marco was beated to the ground and bruised in spite of the instant regeneration. And never tried to attack after that. So it is a clear portrayal that Old Garp >> Marco. I do not think that Old Garp is >> Kaido. Prime Garp high diffs if not mid diffs Kaido, but Old Garp is at the very very best on par with Kaido.
> 
> Aokiji was hit (he wasn't paying attention to Marco, he was going to attack Rufy) but had absolutely no real damage at all.
> 
> He had no chance. Teach and his men stomped Marco and his men, indeed. The Gorosei were just talking about being the only one who could stop Teach's rise to Whitebeard's old territories; because Marco was Whitebeard's "successor". When they actually fought, Teach stomped Marco. I think that Teach would defeat Kaido, but not stomp him.


1. And I think Old Garp is > Kaidou, as I said Kaidou is going to loose to Luffy relying on brute strength and Haki; which Garp is as good at if not better 

2. Can you link me? 

3. Having a chance implies; he is Top Tier; unless you’re going to tell me a High Tier has a chance against a Top Tier?


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## itsxtray (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. And I think Old Garp is > Kaidou, as I said Kaidou is going to loose to Luffy relying on brute strength and Haki; which Garp is as good at if not better
> 
> 2. Can you link me?
> 
> 3. Having a chance implies; he is Top Tier; unless you’re going to tell me a High Tier has a chance against a Top Tier?


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

itsxtray said:


>


That’s not getting hit when off guard; he blocked the attack with his ice sword didn’t he lol?


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## itsxtray (Feb 28, 2020)

Turrin said:


> That’s not getting hit when off guard; he blocked the attack with his ice sword didn’t he lol?


What on earth are you looking at lol? He has his ice saber raised about to stab Luffy and then Marco flies in and kicks the saber and him at the same time because he's holding it so close to his body.

In the anime he notices Marco but can't react, in the manga he doesn't notice Marco at all and gets punted, but the very first page of the next chapter he's up and attacking whitebeard with no visible damage:



Then Jozu interferes and actually makes Aokiji bleed, unlike Marco. This definitely suggestes Jozu has more attack power:



Marco's biggest weakness is his lack of attack power, especially against someone like Kaido. He definitely doesn't hit harder than gear 4th, none of his feats suggest he could hurt Kaido.

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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> What on earth are you looking at lol? He has his ice saber raised about to stab Luffy and then Marco flies in and kicks the saber and him at the same time because he's holding it so close to his body.
> 
> In the anime he notices Marco but can't react, in the manga he doesn't notice Marco at all and gets punted, but the very first page of the next chapter he's up and attacking whitebeard with no visible damage:
> 
> ...


Okay now I see what your talking about but we don’t actually see Aokiji right after Marco attacks him, so it’s impossible to say how much damage Marco did. And whether intentional or not Marco attack was buffered by Aokiji Ice Sword, so it wasn’t a direct hit. 

Anyway I think your taking too much away from this


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## Imagine (Feb 28, 2020)

Marco wins. 

Luffy currently isn't overriding Marco's regen.


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## Rp4lyf (Feb 28, 2020)

Imagine said:


> Marco wins.
> 
> Luffy currently isn't overriding Marco's regen.


Luffy wins easily with Advanced Armament Haki Level 2- Destroying objects from the inside out, bypasding his regeneration.

That is what Garp used to injure Marco leaving lasting damage on him.

You can see a bandage on his head where Garp hit him at the burial of Ace and Whitebeard after the war.

None of the the Admirals have this type of Level 2 Haki.

The Admirals however have Advanced Armament Haki level 1- Barrier/ Shield/ Shockwave

This is why none of them could damage Marco without seastone while Garp could.


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## Turrin (Feb 28, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Luffy wins easily with Advanced Armament Haki Level 2- Destroying objects from the inside out, bypasding his regeneration.
> 
> That is what Garp used to injure Marco leaving lasting damage on him.
> 
> ...


Haki doesn’t bypass regen; Regen is healing from wounds; not some kind of DF intangibility


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## Imagine (Feb 28, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Luffy wins easily with Advanced Armament Haki Level 2- Destroying objects from the inside out, *bypasding his regeneration*.


Pure assumption on your part. Especially with the Garp part.

Plus Luffy hasn't fully masted the technique yet. Marco actively regens while taking damage and he can take more than what Luffy can currently output thanks to that regen.


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## Sherlōck (Feb 28, 2020)

FlyingBison said:


> to be fair I dont think Marco has shown the level of damage to hurt Luffy.
> 
> But with the new Advanced COA ability Luffy would be a major problem for Marco, depending on how much it's been mastered by him.



Hurting Luffy is pretty easy. You don't need Yonko/Admiral level attack to hurt Luffy. Any attack from YC1/YC2 character is enough.


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## neonlight (Feb 29, 2020)

I don't see how with FS and CoA Luffy loses to Marco. But at the same time, Macro also cannot lose against Luffy's FM level attack.


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## Nox (Feb 29, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Luffy wins easily with *Advanced Armament Haki Level 2*- Destroying objects from the inside out, bypasding his regeneration.





Rp4lyf said:


> That is what Garp used to injure Marco leaving lasting damage on him.
> 
> You can see a bandage on his head where Garp hit him at the burial of Ace and Whitebeard after the war.
> 
> ...




Advanced CoA which involves Blackening of an Appendage -- effectively limiting it to its natural physical form whilst emanating Armament Barrier. For the purpose of my edification explain how a Logia is supposed to retain its elemental form to inflict damage WHILST being limited to a physical form. Furthermore, to accomplish this feat all external Haki is transferred to the limb in question. Essentially making yourself vulnerable to an attack. Here I thought a Logia strategy is to overwhelm the opponent with scale and destructiveness before finishing with haki confrontation. Though, I do agree with you -- people limit CoA to bypassing Logia form. I believe it equalized all form of DF superiority. A superficial punch with the power of a nuke is easier to heal that one which lands in your internal organs. Marco's regen is automatic, there is a process to it which can be overwhelmed.


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## Heart Over Blade (Feb 29, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Luffy wins easily with Advanced Armament Haki Level 2- Destroying objects from the inside out, bypasding his regeneration.
> 
> *None of the the Admirals have this type of Level 2 Haki.*
> 
> ...



I voted for Marco but now I changed my mind. Most top tiers have not demonstrated this level of CoA mastery, no matter what reasons anyone comes up with. If Luffy could hurt prime Kaidou with his Advanced CoA and be the main fighter of that battle, the damage he could deal should be too much for Marco in an extended battle. Not to mention, Luffy has now reached a level of CoO beyond that of most top tiers. Luffy will be landing far more hits for every hit he takes, which won't be doing much to his G4.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> _*I tend to believe Marco is >= Kaidou*_ (Yeah hate incoming I’m sure), but in Japanese mythology the Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon. Also Marco was at the bottom of Top Tier which is where I believe Kaidou is. And both present the same challenge to Luffy of how to do actual meaningful damage to them, but I think it’s actually harder to deal with Marco ability. So I think Luffy probably isn’t quite on that level yet



Kaidou>(WSC/BB considers him a Monster)Current Black beard>Payback War Black beard>>Marco(Who BB shit on along with the rest of his friends in a overwhelming defeat/Marco saying they couldn't do a thing to stop him.



As to the OP. Marco is a bad match up for Luffy as Luffy still needs G4 to compete at the top levels. Which significantly drains his stamina. Post Katakuri/Post CoA training we dont actually know how draining G4 is currently for Luffy.

So depending on how Luffy can manage his G4 usage will be the key to if he can beat marco. Although obviously post wano Luffy wins 100 percent.

Currently I dont see Luffy beating marco without pushing himself to the limits as marco will stay at 100 percent until his regen runs out, while luffy gets weaker after each G4 usage. So Luffy wins or loses extreme diff currently. Post Wano I can see Luffy mid diff win.

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## Ezekjuninor (Feb 29, 2020)

I'd say Luffy high diff. He's gonna get a stat boost from the prison training and he now has advanced CoA which means he doesn't need to rely on gear 4 as much. Also with advanced COO, he can probably stall a lot better when his Gear 4 runs out.


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## Vivo Diez (Feb 29, 2020)

Marco is definitely top tier yonko FM and because of the nature of his DF he can somewhat challenge top tiers. I think Luffy, at this point, should at least match Marco in terms of base stats, but I still don't see him beating Marco because of Marcos regen and Luffy's time limit with G4.

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## Lord Melkor (Feb 29, 2020)

I put Marco at a level above Katakuri, but Luffy with current training may have a chance after a very hard fight.

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## Ren. (Feb 29, 2020)

Vivo Diez said:


> Marco is definitely top tier yonko FM and because of the nature of his DF he can somewhat challenge top tiers. I think Luffy, at this point, should at least match Marco in terms of base stats, but I still don't see him beating Marco because of Marcos regen and Luffy's time limit with G4.


The story dictates that Luffy has enough damage to damage kaido.

And KKG alone is not at FM damage alone and that was is DressRosa.


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> Kaidou>(WSC/BB considers him a Monster)Current Black beard>Payback War Black beard>>Marco(Who BB shit on along with the rest of his friends in a overwhelming defeat/Marco saying they couldn't do a thing to stop him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1. I don’t believe Teach calling Kaidou a monster means Kaidou is stronger then Teach (I think Teach would beat Kaidou); I think it’s a show of respect for sure, but I think it’s mostly about Kaidou Zoan Fruit. But it’s been awhile since I saw that statement, maybe you can link me.

However if you do believe Kaidou > Teach then you are making three major assumption here. That 1. Teach got much stronger since the Payback War, 2. that Teach Low/Mid diff’d Marco, and 3. Marco didn’t become stronger since the Payback War himself.

If Teach is still weaker then Kaidou, I doubt he became much stronger then the Payback War; as I can’t see Teach with a fully mastered Gura with its world ending power, on top of Yami Fruit ability to Nullify Kaidou Zoan DF defense, loosing to Kaidou. Only way he still looses to Kaidou is if he still hasn’t mastered Gura Fruit entirely (and probably hasn’t improved in other areas ether like Haki), which means Teach hasn’t progressed that much from MF, let alone the Payback War.

Also I doubt Teach wrecked Marco personally Low/Mid Diff as not only did the Gorosei think Marco had a chance to stop Teach even after learning he gained the Gura Fruit; but Marco survived his battle with Teach, which I can’t see Teach letting Marco live and not stealing his DF (for himself or his crew) if he crushed him so badly. More likely Marco put up enough of a fight where he was able to survive fighting Teach and ultimately flee with some of the WB pirates when the tides began to turn.

Finally; if Teach became stronger since the Payback War it is possible Marco has as well; and this is something that we need to account for.

Anyway the symbology of the Phoenix and the Dragon; and the fact that so far those are the two confirmed Mythic Zoan users; and Kaidou having his history where he lost to the former FM or the WB pirates, and the fact that the Minks literally tries to recruit Marco to fight Kaidou; all makes me believe these two are narratively going to be written to be close to each other in power. Additionally literally Marco is the only person that could show up to even out the playing field and fight Big Mom and Kaidou alongside Luffy that I can think of, unless Oda randomly makes Kidd Yonko level or Oden is still alive


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 29, 2020)

I think Marco , Kaido , Oden and the admirals outside of Akainu are about the same level of strength , Luffy will beat Kaido but he’s not quite there yet as of now Luffy loses but after this arc and Luffy defeats Kaido then I will believe he will have surpassed Marco in overall strength 

I see Luffy’s overall progression like this 

Ace-Sabo-Dofla

Garp(Old)-Marco-Kaido 

Shanks -Akainu 

Dragon- Teach 

Roger - IMU/WG


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## itsxtray (Feb 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Okay now I see what your talking about but we don’t actually see Aokiji right after Marco attacks him, so it’s impossible to say how much damage Marco did. And whether intentional or not Marco attack was buffered by Aokiji Ice Sword, so it wasn’t a direct hit.



If Oda wanted to make it clear that Marco damaged Aokiji he could have done so, like showing Jozu making him bleed, but he chose not to.



Turrin said:


> Anyway I think your taking too much away from this



Maybe, but unfortunately the spattering of feats from marineford are all we have to go on right now. Hopefully he turns up soon and does something dope.


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## Zero (Feb 29, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think Marco , Kaido , Oden and the admirals outside of Akainu are about the same level of strength , Luffy will beat Kaido but he’s not quite there yet as of now Luffy loses but after this arc and Luffy defeats Kaido then I will believe he will have surpassed Marco in overall strength
> 
> I see Luffy’s overall progression like this
> 
> ...


Why is Marco in same category as Kaido?
Maybe 20 years ago that'd be accurate.


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> If Oda wanted to make it clear that Marco damaged Aokiji he could have done so, like showing Jozu making him bleed, but he chose not to.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe, but unfortunately the spattering of feats from marineford are all we have to go on right now. Hopefully he turns up soon and does something dope.


1. I agree Oda didn’t go out of his way to make it clear how much Marco damaged (it didn’t Aokiji), but that doesn’t mean he didn’t damaged Aokiji, it means Oda doesn’t care to waste panel time on that. 

2. I mean going off Marine Ford Marco also took attacks from Kizaru with zero damage; so at worst they are even at the end of MF in terms of ability to take a hit


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 29, 2020)

FlyingBison said:


> Why is Marco in same category as Kaido?
> Maybe 20 years that'd be accurate.



because he was YC1 for WB’s crew and I firmly believe WB is a tier above Kaido and the other admirals outside of Akainu in which Marco showed he could fight on their level .

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## itsxtray (Feb 29, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Hurting Luffy is pretty easy. You don't need Yonko/Admiral level attack to hurt Luffy. Any attack from YC1/YC2 character is enough.


True, but until we get some haki feats for Marco we won't even know if he can consistently hit/dodge Luffy and if he can how much damage he can do/avoid.

My headcanon is post Udon gear 2nd Luffy uses FS and advanced Coa to wear Marco down until he's weak enough for a kong organ or leon bazooka to take him out.


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I think Marco , Kaido , Oden and the admirals outside of Akainu are about the same level of strength , Luffy will beat Kaido but he’s not quite there yet as of now Luffy loses but after this arc and Luffy defeats Kaido then I will believe he will have surpassed Marco in overall strength
> 
> I see Luffy’s overall progression like this
> 
> ...


Ace is above Doffy
Garp is above Kaidou
Teach will be above Dragon and Roger (or equal)

It’s more like beating Doffy was Low Yonko Commander level (one of the weakest); Luffy besting him with help showed he was just starting to reach the border of YC.

Katakuri was one of the strongest YC, so beating him was to show Luffy was reaching the top of YC.

Kaidou is one of the weakest Legendary Pirates / Yonko; and Luffy beating him (probably with some minor help) will show he’s just starting to reach that level.

Aftwr that Luffy fight Akainu who is the strongest Marine, and Luffy beats him proving hes bear the Top of Yonko / Legendary Pirate level. Teach probably beats Shanks or Dragon around this time proving the same thing.

Then it’s down to IMu or Teach for FV; and ether Shanks or Dragon is going to be PK level by then; at which point they will beat that individual to show they are PK+.

Luffy then beats BB or IMU first depending on who isn’t the FV; showing he is PK level; and then Beats the FV showing he is PK++


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## SomnusUltima (Feb 29, 2020)

Luffy now strongest high tier
Luffy
Sabo/Beckman
All YC1
YC3\2 Doffy
trust me, stop think im troll


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## itsxtray (Feb 29, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> As to the OP. Marco is a bad match up for Luffy as Luffy still needs G4 to compete at the top levels. Which significantly drains his stamina. Post Katakuri/Post CoA training we dont actually know how draining G4 is currently for Luffy.
> 
> So depending on how Luffy can manage his G4 usage will be the key to if he can beat marco. Although obviously post wano Luffy wins 100 percent.
> 
> Currently I dont see Luffy beating marco without pushing himself to the limits as marco will stay at 100 percent until his regen runs out, while luffy gets weaker after each G4 usage. So Luffy wins or loses extreme diff currently. Post Wano I can see Luffy mid diff win.


I'd like to push back on this a little, I believe that a combination of his physical boost post Udon and his growing mastery of future sight will allow him to keep up with Marco in only gear 2nd; then his advanced coa will give him the attack power to wear Marco down enough for Luffy to enter gear 4th and finish him with a leo bazooka, or kong organ, after a hard fought battle.

Remember, Marco's devil fruit doesn't work on a time limit, it just has a cap to how much  damage he can regenerate, theoretically one attack could tax his regen powers, tho unlikely.

Headcanon:
Luffy enters gear 2nd and uses future sight to dodge and perfectly time his counters; hitting Marco with heavy blows like jet bullet and red hawk that are backed up by advanced coa, wearing the phoenix down. Once Luffy feels Marco is weak enough that he can finish him with a single round of gear 4th he enters it and ends him.


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## Fel1x (Feb 29, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Marco.
> 
> Luffy hasn’t shown to dish out the level of damage Marco took and regenerated effortlessly at MF .


but who showed?


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## Eliyua23 (Feb 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Ace is above Doffy
> Garp is above Kaidou
> Teach will be above Dragon and Roger (or equal)
> 
> ...



I’m talking about around the time he fought Doffy then once he beat him he surpassed him now Kaido is the next progression on the list 

I think WB is a tier above Prime Garp and Old WB is a tier above old Garp scaling him below Akainu like the other admirals which is what we saw at Marine 

Shanks and Akainu are close if not equal to Old WB now with Akainu since he has probably leveled up he’s slightly stronger and once Luffy beats him then he will be Old WB level .

Teach is currently as strong as Dragon that slight level between Old WB and Roger which makes since as we know Dragon is weaker than Roger but more than likely will be a good deal stronger than Old WB now to me Teach will beat Dragon and take his fruit making his final battle with Luffy where they mirror Prime Roger vs Prime WB , after that then it’s surpassing Roger then taking on IMU and becoming the ultimate Pirate so basically it’s 


WG IMU - End Game Luffy 

Prime Teach ~ Prime Roger ~ Prime WB~ Teach Fight Luffy 

Current Teach ~ Dragon 

Shanks ~ Old WB~ Luffy Fight Akainu~ Luffy Fight Akainu ~ Prime Garp 

Kaido ~ Old Garp ~ Marco ~ Color Trio ~ Current Luffy 

Ace ~ Dolfa ~ Sabo ~ Dofla Fight Luffy ~ Weaker Fleet Admirals


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Feb 29, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. I don’t believe Teach calling Kaidou a monster means Kaidou is stronger then Teach (I think Teach would beat Kaidou); I think it’s a show of respect for sure, but I think it’s mostly about Kaidou Zoan Fruit. But it’s been awhile since I saw that statement, maybe you can link me.
> 
> However if you do believe Kaidou > Teach then you are making three major assumption here. That 1. Teach got much stronger since the Payback War, 2. that Teach Low/Mid diff’d Marco, and 3. Marco didn’t become stronger since the Payback War himself.
> 
> ...




1. Sure a charcter calling someone else a monster isn't always indicative of inferiority, but he calls kaidou a monster, and just calls big mom crazy(which she is) so it's worth something. On top of Kaidou being the current individual with a world strongest title, 1v1 king, highest bounty, gathered his crew and became a yonkou on sheer strength.  
Whether you by the hype or not its inarguable that Oda, has given Kaidou more hype about his individual strength then any other character not named WB.

2. Teach is a dynamic charcter he is in a constant state of growth the same as luffy.  
So yes I think BB and his crew have gotten significantly stronger since they beat Marco, just like I think BB will be getting significantly stronger after he beats Shanks and before he fights Luffy/WG in a few months. As for BB mid/low diffing Marco, already supported why I think BB kicked his ass. Marco may have gotten stronger since the payback war, kaidou may have gotten stronger to so not really relevant unless you got evidence that marco got stronger and kaidou didnt.

3 Devil Fruit Blackbeard is going to get his face caved in by a rubber fist. 2 devil fruit BB losing to a dragon man isn't any worse then that. No devil Shanks is also going to fight BB just fine. Unless you think BB is just going to roll up and shit on one of the most hyped charcters since the start of the manga Shanks(big doubt). I personally doubt Yami has mastered either of his devil fruits. He has only had the Gura for 2 years and the Yami like 3(I think Ace was chasing him for a year). Of course mastery is completely up to oda BB could just be that good and mastered both in 1 year, but i would not be surprised at all if BB unlocks Awakening for the Gura or Yami in order to defeat Shanks.

Possibly but Luffy and Crew escaped from Big mom so you dont need to be that close in strength to run away from someone, and we dont know the details of Marco's defeat other then they got shit on. As in one of his crew mates could of sacrificed themselves WB style so he could run away. Marco could of gotten stronger same goes for kaidou. Marco's retired and playing doctor, kaidou is a active warmonger yonkou, if anyone's getting stronger its Kaidou tbh. That being said I think marco and kaidou have been at their prime for years as I view both as static characters, I dont think either have gotten significantly stronger in a long time.

If Marco actually shows up and puts in some work I will gladly change my rankings based on his performance. Until then He gets a club to the face until his regen stops. I will give Marco despite his lack luster offensive feats the benefit of the doubt that he can actually hurt Kaidou in the first place Which trust me is more then most people would give him.



itsxtray said:


> I'd like to push back on this a little, I believe that a combination of his physical boost post Udon and his growing mastery of future sight will allow him to keep up with Marco in only gear 2nd; then his advanced coa will give him the attack power to wear Marco down enough for Luffy to enter gear 4th and finish him with a leo bazooka, or kong organ, after a hard fought battle.
> 
> Remember, Marco's devil fruit doesn't work on a time limit, it just has a cap to how much  damage he can regenerate, theoretically one attack could tax his regen powers, tho unlikely.
> 
> ...



I can see your scenario panning out. I need some feats from Luffy though before I assume he can do that though, I dont think he deserves the benefit of the doubt to be able to duke it out effectively in G2 with marco


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Sure a charcter calling someone else a monster isn't always indicative of inferiority, but he calls kaidou a monster, and just calls big mom crazy(which she is) so it's worth something. On top of Kaidou being the current individual with a world strongest title, 1v1 king, highest bounty, gathered his crew and became a yonkou on sheer strength.
> Whether you by the hype or not its inarguable that Oda, has given Kaidou more hype about his individual strength then any other character not named WB.
> 
> 2. Teach is a dynamic charcter he is in a constant state of growth the same as luffy.
> ...


1. I simply don’t see that scene as BB being afraid of Kaidou; he is describing qualities of BM and Kaidou; BM is Crazy and Kaidou is a Beast (as he is a Zoan user). And Kaidou has gotten a lot of hype but Kaidou has been the focus of the story for the last couple arcs as the guy Luffy has to beat; so that’s not surprising. As far as the 1v1 stuff; I don’t buy it.

2. I actually agree with you that Teach kept growing I just dont think he got ‘significantly’ from MF and is still ‘inferior’ to Kaidou. So if your going to argue he is ‘significantly’ stronger that’s fine, I would just then doubt that he wouldn’t beat Kaidou. 

3. Luffy is going to beat Teach by relying on some special ability we haven’t seen before. Whether this is due to an advanced ability of CoC or if it’s due to Gomu Fruit Awakening being broken; or something else, IDK, but it’s something Kaidou doesn’t have. Likewise Shanks challenging Teach, if that fight does happen, will also be due to some new ability we haven’t seen before. So yeah I firmly believe that Teach with Full mastery of two Incredibly powerful DF will not loose to someone like Kaidou. Though it Teach hasn’t awakened / masters his Fruits yet I can see Kaidou giving him a tough time still; but then as I said it doesn’t seem like Teach has increased his ability much if he still hasn’t mastered ether DF, since MF. Like what else could he have gotten as a major upgrade if not further mastery of his DF?

3B.  Marco didn’t avoid or run away from Teach initially their was a war; in which Marco faced Teach and survived the encounter; I don’t think they could be that far apart for this to happen. For example Look at Luffy vs Kaidou; if Teach slammed Marco like that he would have stolen his fruit and Marco would have been dead. 

Kaidou is in his 50s-60s I find it doubtful he’s getting much stronger; while Marco is still young enough that this can happen; and unlike Kaido Marco has actually had character growth. After WB death he took on the role of Leader of the WB pirates and fought a war against a Yonko; he then lost and grew again becoming a doctor. Also this might seem silly, but I actually do think it’s true; that usually a change in a characters clothes and appearance donate growth in strength in Manga (especially over a time-skip), which we saw occur with Marco. 

I agree that most people think Kaidou wins; but then most people didn’t think Oden was going to slap Kaidou ether.


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## itsxtray (Feb 29, 2020)

Donquixote Doflamingo said:


> 1. Sure a charcter calling someone else a monster isn't always indicative of inferiority, but he calls kaidou a monster, and just calls big mom crazy(which she is) so it's worth something. On top of Kaidou being the current individual with a world strongest title, 1v1 king, highest bounty, gathered his crew and became a yonkou on sheer strength.
> Whether you by the hype or not its inarguable that Oda, has given Kaidou more hype about his individual strength then any other character not named WB.
> 
> 2. Teach is a dynamic charcter he is in a constant state of growth the same as luffy.
> ...


Yeah, I can understand that, gear 2nd has kinda become irrelevant (I even made a thread about it: )

Luffy has been overmatched at this tier without gear 4th but I made the argument that ironically it's haki that will save gear 2/3 from becoming useless. For example: advanced Coa gives Luffy in gear 2nd the attack power he lacked against Doffy and future sight while not technically making him "stronger" makes him a better fighter. like I said he can dodge and then time his counters perfectly to land an attack that he wouldn't have been able to without it.


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## Beast (Feb 29, 2020)

Dragon stronger then Garp? 

Now, I’ve seen it all


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## Turrin (Feb 29, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> I’m talking about around the time he fought Doffy then once he beat him he surpassed him now Kaido is the next progression on the list
> 
> I think WB is a tier above Prime Garp and Old WB is a tier above old Garp scaling him below Akainu like the other admirals which is what we saw at Marine
> 
> ...


I just don’t think Prime Teach with t he Yami fruit and Gura being equal to Prime WB with just the Gura makes sense for staters


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I just don’t think Prime Teach with the Yami fruit and Gura being equal to Prime WB with just the Gura makes sense for staters


Prime WB shits on Prime Teach physically. I doubt Teach is getting much of a stat boost Gura just gives him greater destructibility. WB was a top tier in every aspect. Endurance which was shown in MF. Haki which was shown to equal Roger likely the best haki user seen. Speed and reaction speed good enough to equal roger. 
Prime Teach has only shown top tier Endurance and maybe strength also his speed/reaction speed has been trash. 

Yami basically makes up for the attributes that WB already had. 
Teach being ~prime Roger/WB level is fair. Luffy will surpass that level once he beats Teach.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 1, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Prime WB shits on Prime Teach physically. I doubt Teach is getting much of a stat boost Gura just gives him greater destructibility. WB was a top tier in every aspect. Endurance which was shown in MF. Haki which was shown to equal Roger likely the best haki user seen. Speed and reaction speed good enough to equal roger.
> Prime Teach has only shown top tier Endurance and maybe strength also his speed/reaction speed has been trash.
> 
> Yami basically makes up for the attributes that WB already had.
> Teach being ~prime Roger/WB level is fair. Luffy will surpass that level once he beats Teach.



Teach alrdy been portrayed to have massive physical strenght and endurance, this 2 stats could very well exceed Primebeards but the other's especially Haki can be argued about especially if he outbalances them with DF powers.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I just don’t think Prime Teach with t he Yami fruit and Gura being equal to Prime WB with just the Gura makes sense for staters



To me their fight should mirror WB vs Roger as that’s what they are set up to be Luffy then becomes GOAT Pirate unequivocally then takes on final villain IMU/WG ect.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Prime WB shits on Prime Teach physically. I doubt Teach is getting much of a stat boost Gura just gives him greater destructibility. WB was a top tier in every aspect. Endurance which was shown in MF. Haki which was shown to equal Roger likely the best haki user seen. Speed and reaction speed good enough to equal roger.
> Prime Teach has only shown top tier Endurance and maybe strength also his speed/reaction speed has been trash.
> 
> Yami basically makes up for the attributes that WB already had.
> Teach being ~prime Roger/WB level is fair. Luffy will surpass that level once he beats Teach.


Teach needs to be Top Tier in reaction speed or hell just get blitz’s by every Top Tier, have all his attacks evaded,  and easily loose to all of them; this isn’t happening considering Teach relevance in the story, so yeah that physical stat (& or CoO) will have to increase to allow him to even compete with Luffy 

Yami makes up for the other abilities WB already had, plus gives him Yami other abilities like liberation and the giant gravity attack he used agaisnt Ace; and this is without seeing its awakened form; so no it will end up giving Teach more then what WB has shown so far outside of Gura.


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> To me their fight should mirror WB vs Roger as that’s what they are set up to be Luffy then becomes GOAT Pirate unequivocally then takes on final villain IMU/WG ect.


It’s setup to mirror Roger vs Rocks; and it will be on a higher level due to typical Shonen logic of the new generation being above the former. So BB will be stronger then Rocks and Luffy will need to be stronger then Roger to win.

Whether there is another fight beyond this with Imu or if this is the final battle, doesn’t matter;


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## Lyren (Mar 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I tend to believe Marco is >= Kaidou (Yeah hate incoming I’m sure), but in Japanese mythology the Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon. Also Marco was at the bottom of Top Tier which is where I believe Kaidou is. And both present the same challenge to Luffy of how to do actual meaningful damage to them, but I think it’s actually harder to deal with Marco ability. So I think Luffy probably isn’t quite on that level yet


Speculating on methology rather than canon material doesnt seem right to me lol. 
Kaido is considered a peer to Marco's boss. 
Marco expressed fear and shock at the idea of Luffy going to match Kaido.
Even if we follow your antagonists power scaling logic, Luffy surpassed characters with the same portrayal as Marco : Yonko FM and is about to fight another antagonist > Katakuri = Marco (the gap wouldnt be big between Marco and Kata if there was one)
Kaido has proved to be able to one shot > YFM charcs and so did Big Mom against Queen.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 1, 2020)

This forum is full of nonsensical statements

2 dudes believing Marco is ~ Kaido


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s setup to mirror Roger vs Rocks; and it will be on a higher level due to typical Shonen logic of the new generation being above the former. So BB will be stronger then Rocks and Luffy will need to be stronger then Roger to win.
> 
> Whether there is another fight beyond this with Imu or if this is the final battle, doesn’t matter;



You thinks Rocks is stronger than WB ?



Lyren said:


> Speculating on methology rather than canon material doesnt seem right to me lol.
> Kaido is considered a peer to Marco's boss.
> Marco expressed fear and shock at the idea of Luffy going to match Kaido.
> Even if we follow your antagonists power scaling logic, Luffy surpassed characters with the same portrayal as Marco : Yonko FM and is about to fight another antagonist > Katakuri = Marco (the gap wouldnt be big between Marco and Kata if there was one)
> Kaido has proved to be able to one shot > YFM charcs and so did Big Mom against Queen.



They share a title and rank peer power wise no way , WB was regarded as the strongest man alive in marine ford .


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## Turrin (Mar 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> You thinks Rocks is stronger than WB ?


Yes; he was called Roger’s greatest rival and that was back before Roger was Sick. 

Prime Roger = Rocks
Sick Roger = Prime WB



Lyren said:


> Speculating on methology rather than canon material doesnt seem right to me lol.
> Kaido is considered a peer to Marco's boss.
> Marco expressed fear and shock at the idea of Luffy going to match Kaido.
> Even if we follow your antagonists power scaling logic, Luffy surpassed characters with the same portrayal as Marco : Yonko FM and is about to fight another antagonist > Katakuri = Marco (the gap wouldnt be big between Marco and Kata if there was one)
> Kaido has proved to be able to one shot > YFM charcs and so did Big Mom against Queen.


Kaidou isn’t considered a peer to WB; anymore then them both holding the title of ‘Yonko’ and in that sense it’s no different then Alabast Crocodile being a peer to Mihawk.

Marco being afraid of Luffy facing Kaidou is irrelevant; what’s more relevant is that the Minks thought Marco could help them take down  Kaidou; and wanted to recruit him for that reason. 

Marco has high portrayal then the other YFM; as he was WB FM, who is above the other Yonko, just like I consider Raleigh above YFM. He also took charge of the WB crew and was considered strong enough to possibly stop BB, who was in turn considered strong enough to become a Yonko, so he’s grown beyond the role of YFM, anyway taking on the role of captain; and now has gone beyond that becoming his own man fulfilling WB will. 

Kaidou one shot Lufty which I don’t even think he would have even accomplished if Luffy didn’t loose his cool; as he would have used FS and Snake man to avoid being defeated so quickly by Kaidou.  But Luffy was about as strong as Katakuti who I don’t even believe is the strongest Yonko Commander (with Marco being above that level anyway)


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## Lyren (Mar 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> They share a title and rank peer power wise no way , WB was regarded as the strongest man alive in marine ford .


While Kaido is the strongest creature, mankind included.


Turrin said:


> Kaidou isn’t considered a peer to WB; anymore then them both holding the title of ‘Yonko’ and in that sense it’s no different then Alabast Crocodile being a peer to Mihawk.


Yonko power level structure leans more toward that of admirals rather than Shichibukai. No one would argue that any admiral is way stronger than the other. Shichibukai are chosen depending on many varrying purposes for the GOVT not necessarry for their strength. 
Oden also held Young Kaido power in high esteem despite his cowardice way of doing things.


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## Lyren (Mar 1, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Marco being afraid of Luffy facing Kaidou is irrelevant; what’s more relevant is that the Minks thought Marco could help them take down Kaidou; and wanted to recruit him for that reason.


Just as an ally, something about him tieing the scales in favor of the alliance side was never hinted at.


Turrin said:


> Marco has high portrayal then the other YFM; as he was WB FM, who is above the other Yonko, just like I consider Raleigh above YFM. He also took charge of the WB crew and was considered strong enough to possibly stop BB, who was in turn considered strong enough to become a Yonko, so he’s grown beyond the role of YFM, anyway taking on the role of captain; and now has gone beyond that becoming his own man fulfilling WB will.


Hé didnt live to his hype as BB basically stomped him with all the crew and BB is a rookie Yonko who reffered to Kaido as a "Monster"


Turrin said:


> Kaidou one shot Lufty which I don’t even think he would have even accomplished if Luffy didn’t loose his cool; as he would have used FS and Snake man to avoid being defeated so quickly by Kaidou. But Luffy was about as strong as Katakuti who I don’t even believe is the strongest Yonko Commander (with Marco being above that level anyway)


Kaido is just on another League, otherwise Luffy wouldnt be knocked out after one hit while Big mom stalemated Kaido 3 days.
Marco being above Katakuri is baseless claim, he very much lacks enough fire power to deal serious damage to Katakuri in top of that


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 1, 2020)

Lyren said:


> While Kaido is the strongest creature, mankind included.
> 
> Yonko power level structure leans more toward that of admirals rather than Shichibukai. No one would argue that any admiral is way stronger than the other. Shichibukai are chosen depending on many varrying purposes for the GOVT not necessarry for their strength.
> Oden also held Young Kaido power in high esteem despite his cowardice way of doing things.



Those are two different things , WB got his hype on the battlefield from other powerful characters , Kaido’s hype has not been seen in the context , WB was on his damn deathbed and seemed like a force that couldn’t be dealt with by the most powerful entity in the manga , even pre Luffy he was dealt a powerful blow by Oden , why would you de-hype the supposedly strongest man in the world before his major battle , why because he’s being de-hyped on panel so it won’t seem that inconceivable when Luffy beats him .


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## Lyren (Mar 1, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Those are two different things , WB got his hype on the battlefield from other powerful characters , Kaido’s hype has not been seen in the context , WB was on his damn deathbed and seemed like a force that couldn’t be dealt with by the most powerful entity in the manga , even pre Luffy he was dealt a powerful blow by Oden , why would you de-hype the supposedly strongest man in the world before his major battle , why because he’s being de-hyped on panel so it won’t seem that inconceivable when Luffy beats him .


The marines still won the paramount War without considerable losses and without much intervention from the Shichibukai. Kaido was known as the strongest creature despite WB being present. Finally Oden told Kaido that he was very strong and none can beat him at the moment and this is regardless of his methodes so he isnt that much dehyped tbh.


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## Eliyua23 (Mar 1, 2020)

Lyren said:


> The marines still won the paramount War without considerable losses and without much intervention from the Shichibukai. Kaido was known as the strongest creature despite WB being present. Finally Oden told Kaido that he was very strong and none can beat him at the moment and this is regardless of his methodes so he isnt that much dehyped tbh.



Right he took on the WG on his deathbed fought against multiple top tiers and was insurmountable, Oden is 99% not even close to Sick WB and was a challenge for Kaido , you are talking Garp , Admirals of the WG a guy who clashed with Roger in the past who started a war with just his pirate crew .


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## Lyren (Mar 2, 2020)

Eliyua23 said:


> Right he took on the WG on his deathbed fought against multiple top tiers and was insurmountable, Oden is 99% not even close to Sick WB and was a challenge for Kaido , you are talking Garp , Admirals of the WG a guy who clashed with Roger in the past who started a war with just his pirate crew .


Sengoku and Garp only intervened when BB started his rampage, they werent needed against WB  
Also 3 admirals and Marine fodder HQ were capable of taking on WB excluding even the shichibukai help, they were more of a nuisance instead. Orochi told cp0 that the entire World Govt entity including the marines means jack shit to him since he is backed up by Kaido.
Oden was among top tier and he was always portrayed as such while Kaido didnt even reach his prime back then.


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## Corax (Mar 2, 2020)

Luffy was able to fight Katakuri in base for a long time even before Udon training and advanced CoA training. He can beat Marco without G4 at this point. Only his stamina is in question (though I think now he has far better stamina  than at WCI due to Udon kairoseki and block lifting training).


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## itsxtray (Mar 2, 2020)

Corax said:


> Luffy was able to fight Katakuri in base for a long time even before Udon training and advanced CoA training. He can beat Marco without G4 at this point. Only his stamina is in question (though I think now he has far better stamina  than at WCI due to Udon kairoseki and block lifting training).


Pis, Katakuri can weave thru black mamba and blitz snakeman with donutman but can't tag base Luffy? Nonsense.

I agree tho that with future sight, advanced coa, and gear 2nd he can wear Marco down and then finish him off with an advanced haki leo bazooka

Reactions: Like 1


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## Corax (Mar 2, 2020)

itsxtray said:


> Pis, Katakuri can weave thru black mamba and blitz snakeman with donutman but can't tag base Luffy? Nonsense.
> 
> I agree tho that with future sight, advanced coa, and gear 2nd he can wear Marco down and then finish him off with an advanced haki leo bazooka


But this basically that happened. Luffy even managed to land 4-5 good hits in base. Well at least from that small part of 13 hours long fight we saw on panel. Katakuri failed to put base Luffy down in 13 hours and even took some good hits in return.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Just as an ally, something about him tieing the scales in favor of the alliance side was never hinted at.
> 
> Hé didnt live to his hype as BB basically stomped him with all the crew and BB is a rookie Yonko who reffered to Kaido as a "Monster"
> 
> ...


1. As and ally that would massively boost their overall strength; it’s clear that they intended Marco to be the one to fight Kaidou; or at least do so alongside Luffy 

2. If BB defeated Marco but there was a huge battle so I doubt it was a stomp. BB is also > Kaidou anyway imo, so yeah. And BB calling Kaidou a monster describes his Zoan not strictly his strength 

3. Kaidou is in another league from Katakuri; I don’t believe he is from Marco. Marco specifically took hits from individuals >= Kaidou in MF (Admirals) and wasn’t one shot


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 2, 2020)

Corax said:


> But this basically that happened. Luffy even managed to land 4-5 good hits in base. Well at least from that small part of 13 hours long fight we saw on panel. Katakuri failed to put base Luffy down in 13 hours and even took some good hits in return.


Base Luffy landed 2 hits against Katakuri. 1 was during the eating scene which is basically PIS and the other was near the end of the fight once Luffy had learned future sight and he took 10+ hits just to land it. Luffy was completely outclassed by Katakuri for most of the fight barring the eating scene. The only time where the fight was somewhat even was when Luffy had learned future sight and used snakeman. Which Katakuri figured out after like 2 hits. Also if it wasn't for the fact that Luffy could literally eat his way out of Katakuri's binds which is basically PIS again he would've lost low diff. The majority of the fight Katakuri spent imitating Luffy's attacks but using stronger variants.

Katakuri was clearly stronger than Gear 4th Luffy. There is no way that base luffy was close to his level. Also Luffy used Gear 3rd and Gear 2nd attacks. He wasn't just fighting in base for 13 hours and he ran away with Brulee when his gear 4th ran out for probably at least an hour and most likely longer.

On top of all of that Marco is extremely likely stronger than Katakuri. Luffy isn't beating Marco without gear 4th.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. As and ally that would massively boost their overall strength; it’s clear that they intended Marco to be the one to fight Kaidou; or at least do so alongside Luffy
> 
> 2. If BB defeated Marco but there was a huge battle so I doubt it was a stomp. BB is also > Kaidou anyway imo, so yeah. And BB calling Kaidou a monster describes his Zoan not strictly his strength
> 
> 3. Kaidou is in another league from Katakuri; I don’t believe he is from Marco. Marco specifically took hits from individuals >= Kaidou in MF (Admirals) and wasn’t one shot



Your perception of the manga is so twisted and confusing. 

Because Neko requested help from Marco it means Marco is stronger than Kaidou? The same scabbards that left to face Kaidou and his crew right now even without the help of the strawhats. Does that mean Scabbards>Kaidou+crew. Neko was trying to get as much help as he could and obviously he asked an old friend of his who's also strong. Neko hasn't even seen Marco or Kaidou fight in like 20+ years. How could he know if Marco was stronger than Kaidou. At best it's decent hype that he sought out to get his help but it doesn't come close to imply that Marco>Kaidou. 

There is nothing that suggests that BB has surpassed Kaidou or Big Mom yet and sure as hell nothing to suggest he had already done it by the Payback War. Also, Blackbeard+his crew defeated Marco and the WB pirates in an overwhelming victory. BB has a 2.2million bounty right now. kaido has a 4.6 MILLION BOUNTY. You think the world government decided to give Blackbeard a bounty of less than half of Kaidou's when he decisively defeated somebody who you say is stronger than Kaidou? Literally makes no sense. 

Also FS or not Luffy was getting 1 shot. How would FS stop him from getting blitzed when he couldn't even react to Kaidou's attack and the attack had enough force to 1shot him in boundman. Snakeman gives Luffy an offensive skillset what the hell would it do. Kaidou tanked Luffy's Kong Organ but somehow snakeman would've saved him?

Lastly, where the hell did you get Admirals >= Kaidou from. If anything it's the opposite. Even if I was to accept that, which is ridiculous, since when did tanking an attack from akainu and kizaru while using a healing fruit based mainly on defense suggest that he is stronger than Kaidou. Unless you're trying to imply that admirals would low diff or one shot Kaidou which is even more ridiculous.


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## Lyren (Mar 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. As and ally that would massively boost their overall strength; it’s clear that they intended Marco to be the one to fight Kaidou; or at least do so alongside Luffy


WB also wanted Buggy and impel down prisoners as allies because they were "strong" but when you look about it more closely, they'd be non factor even if they helped him.
It is not clear at all, WB didnt intend for Luffy or Buggy to fight Garp, the strongest marine so baseless logic.


Turrin said:


> 2. If BB defeated Marco but there was a huge battle so I doubt it was a stomp. BB is also > Kaidou anyway imo, so yeah. And BB calling Kaidou a monster describes his Zoan not strictly his strength


It was stated to be complete victory over the remaining WB pirates and they are missing now so Blackbeard indeed stomped them.
Blackbeard isnt superior to Kaido either, he has only 2B bounty which is more closer to FM rather than actual yonkos lol, he is the weakest one at the moment. From the context, BB clearly refers to Kaido as a monster due to his strength. There are many zoans on the manga whom people doesnt refer to as monsters.



Turrin said:


> 3. Kaidou is in another league from Katakuri; I don’t believe he is from Marco. Marco specifically took hits from individuals >= Kaidou in MF (Admirals) and wasn’t one shot


Katakuri is Marco's equal and there isnt much of a gap between these two likd you're implying. Kata feats shit on Marcos by PTS standing. Also Marco is the best suitted one to take hits from anyone due to his regen hax.
 Kaido is way stronger than admirals, dudes are one shot material for Sick Whitebeard and you except them to be stronger than healthy Kaido who shares the same yonko title ?


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2020)

Lyren said:


> WB also wanted Buggy and impel down prisoners as allies because they were "strong" but when you look about it more closely, they'd be non factor even if they helped him.
> It is not clear at all, WB didnt intend for Luffy or Buggy to fight Garp, the strongest marine so baseless logic.
> 
> It was stated to be complete victory over the remaining WB pirates and they are missing now so Blackbeard indeed stomped them.
> ...


1. WB didn’t go to recruit just Buggy; he wanted their military force on their side.

2. A complete victory isn’t a stomp; but it doesn’t matter as I think BB low/mid diffs Kaidou anyway. Bounty doesn’t mean anything. And no that’s not the context; he calls Mom ‘Mad’ and Kaidou a ‘Monster’ the context is not strictly strength

3. Nothing ties Katakuri as equal to Marco except that they are both First Mates; and by that logic Raleigh is equal to Katakuri.

Yeah Aokiji / Akainu Low: Mid Diff Kaidou. WB is also stronger then Kaidou so how the Admirals performed against him is irrelevant


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. WB didn’t go to recruit just Buggy; he wanted their military force on their side.
> 
> 2. A complete victory isn’t a stomp; but it doesn’t matter as I think BB low/mid diffs Kaidou anyway. Bounty doesn’t mean anything. And no that’s not the context; he calls Mom ‘Mad’ and Kaidou a ‘Monster’ the context is not strictly strength
> 
> ...


Lol thankfully you are just writing your thoughts and wishes


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2020)

Jo Ndule said:


> Lol thankfully you are just writing your thoughts and wishes


I’m writing what I think; just like everyone else’s


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## Lyren (Mar 2, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. WB didn’t go to recruit just Buggy; he wanted their military force on their side.


It wouldnt have changed the outcome anyways so you didnt refute my argument. Wanting someone as an ally doesnt necessarry mean this person will tie the scales in your favor period.


Turrin said:


> 2. A complete victory isn’t a stomp; but it doesn’t matter as I think BB low/mid diffs Kaidou anyway. Bounty doesn’t mean anything. And no that’s not the context; he calls Mom ‘Mad’ and Kaidou a ‘Monster’ the context is not strictly streng


Given the circumstances, it was. Blackbeard isnt low middffing any Yonko, he is the weakest one, his inexperience and low bounty prove it. Bounty refers to strength to some extent and you can't deny it to just prove your point. Mad maybe refers to Big Mom psychological state and monster is clearly a strength indicating statement.


Turrin said:


> 3. Nothing ties Katakuri as equal to Marco except that they are both First Mates; and by that logic Raleigh is equal to Katakuri


I'm curious about what puts Marco above Katakuri and by remarkable gap ... Pirate king right hand man is way stronger than Yonko FM as the emperors seek the Pirate king title.
Also Roger and Rayleigh is a parallel to Luffy and Zoro relation rather than yonkos and their FM. The gap between the two categories differs.


Turrin said:


> Yeah Aokiji / Akainu Low: Mid Diff Kaidou. WB is also stronger then Kaidou so how the Admirals performed against him is irrelevant


Lol, if you think Kaido isnt as strong as near dying sick WB who two shotted Akainu it means you have clear bias against him. 
The strongest creature getting low diffed by admirals while Orochi is confident on him being strong enough to take on the whole CD and marine forces isnt reasonable at all.


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## Turrin (Mar 2, 2020)

Lyren said:


> It wouldnt have changed the outcome anyways so you didnt refute my argument. Wanting someone as an ally doesnt necessarry mean this person will tie the scales in your favor period.
> 
> Given the circumstances, it was. Blackbeard isnt low middffing any Yonko, he is the weakest one, his inexperience and low bounty prove it. Bounty refers to strength to some extent and you can't deny it to just prove your point. Mad maybe refers to Big Mom psychological state and monster is clearly a strength indicating statement.
> 
> ...


1. Buggy saved Luffy so it did change the outcome

2. If your evidence is bounty that’s no evidence at all. And what is meant by ‘monster’ is open to interpretation; I take it as he is a literal monster as he is a Zoan user; if you take it differently you do you; it’s still not evidence of anything, other then your opinion I disagree with

3. If PK right hand man is above the average right hand man; I don’t see why WB’s also wouldn’t. And Marco has done better against stronger characters then Kaidou then Luffy did against Kaidou; and had better DF then Katakuri.

4. If your taking Orochi’s opinion as evidence you have bias for Kaidou. He also thought Oden couldn’t touch him due to Kaidou; how did that go for him lol


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## itsxtray (Mar 2, 2020)

Corax said:


> But this basically that happened. Luffy even managed to land 4-5 good hits in base. Well at least from that small part of 13 hours long fight we saw on panel. Katakuri failed to put base Luffy down in 13 hours and even took some good hits in return.


I know it's what happened I'm just saying its nonsense. Logically, if Katakuri can react to black mamba and blitz snakeman, base Luffy shouldn't be able to hold him off for hours. But it is what it is.


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## Lyren (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Buggy saved Luffy so it did change the outcome


Thank you for further proving my point, Buggy was useless against any battle including admirals and was never at their level. Same case for Marco here regarding Kaido.


Turrin said:


> 2. If your evidence is bounty that’s no evidence at all. And what is meant by ‘monster’ is open to interpretation; I take it as he is a literal monster as he is a Zoan user; if you take it differently you do you; it’s still not evidence of anything, other then your opinion I disagree with


Bounty indicate strength to some extent, the more we advance in the series the more Luffy ennemies Bounty rise => Doffy < Katakuri < Kaido and its a 2B difference between them not some insignifiant amount. 
X Drake isnt referred to as Monster, yet he has a Zoan 


Turrin said:


> 3. If PK right hand man is above the average right hand man; I don’t see why WB’s also wouldn’t. And Marco has done better against stronger characters then Kaidou then Luffy did against Kaidou; and had better DF then Katakuri.


Whitebeard is a Yonko who didnt reach PK status and he recruit his members based on family cliché not really strength. 
No, it is actually Kaido who would low diff the three admirals at once lol. If one admiral was enough to deal with him, the marines wouldnt shit their pants about his alliance with BM since two admirals are enough. 
Marco pisspoor showings dont put him above Katakuri who démonstrated way better Haki on panel.
We saw non df users stronger than df users so moot point about Marco fruit. 


Turrin said:


> 4. If your taking Orochi’s opinion as evidence you have bias for Kaidou. He also thought Oden couldn’t touch him due to Kaidou; how did that go for him lol


It resulted in the death of Oden  
When Orochi brought Kaido, the CP 0 didnt say a single thing implying they dont deny his statement.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Thank you for further proving my point, Buggy was useless against any battle including admirals and was never at their level. Same case for Marco here regarding Kaido.
> 
> Bounty indicate strength to some extent, the more we advance in the series the more Luffy ennemies Bounty rise => Doffy < Katakuri < Kaido and its a 2B difference between them not some insignifiant amount.
> X Drake isnt referred to as Monster, yet he has a Zoan
> ...


1. You said Buggy & company didn’t change the outcome of the war, they did. I never claimed Buggy was useful 1v1; but WB didn’t just want to recruits Buggy; like the Minks wanted to just recruit Marco. 

2. No bounty indicates ‘threat’ to the WG. Right now Kaidou is a bigger ‘threat’ to the WG then Teach because Kaidou has a 20K Strong Crew, access to cloned DF, control of Wano, ties to Doflamingo, and so on. From what we have seen Shanks and Teach only have their individual power and their far smaller crews; they don’t have the massive territory or influence of Yonko like BM and Kaidou; as they have been in circulation for much less time. 

And plenty of characters aren’t referred to as Mad who aren’t the most emotionally stable in One Piece ether. The fact is that Teach was only talking about Mom and Kaidou. If he was talking about X Drake and Kaidou; and only named on a monster then we could talk. 

3. WB could have reached PK status if he wanted to; or at the very least he was the closest to the throne by far; and he rivaled Roger in strength at certain points in a way that none of the other Yonko have. It’s clear he is cut above the rest; and as such I see no reason why his FM, especially with a TS to become even stronger couldn’t also be a cut above other YFM.

4. Dude there is zero indication Kaidou would beat 3 Admirals at once. In-fact the opposite is indicated. When mentioning how to stop BM; and Kaidou; Kizaru is ready to go solo to deal with the situation, and Akainu seems to think he can, but his concern is the Samurai of Wano not Kaidou or BM individually. And that’s exactly why they are concerned about the Yonko alliance, 2 Yonko combining isn’t good because of the sum total of their resources and armies. Additionally people seem to think the idea of 2 Yonko combining means the Marines are going to go to war with those Yonko exclusively, but that’s not the case; the Marines still need to keep tabs on the other 2 Yonko at the same time. So they may not be able to even afford their full resource to fighting Mom and Kaidou forces.

Marco did better against Admirals who are >= Kaidou then Luffy >= Katakuri  did against Kaidou. That’s enough to say his performance is better to me but I can understand why you would think otherwise if you think Kaidou > 3 Admirals. 

5. It resulted in Oden dying do to the schemes of the Hag; not because Oden couldn’t take Kaidou. Orochi was flat out wrong there


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## Sherlōck (Mar 3, 2020)

Lyren said:


> it is actually Kaido who would low diff the three admirals at once lol.


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## lastkiller (Mar 3, 2020)

I’m new....and i came here for Turrin .....his theories are just too much


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## Beast (Mar 3, 2020)

lastkiller said:


> I’m new....and i came here for Turrin .....his theories are just too much


Understandable


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. As and ally that would massively boost their overall strength; it’s clear that they intended Marco to be the one to fight Kaidou; or at least do so alongside Luffy
> 
> 2. If BB defeated Marco but there was a huge battle so I doubt it was a stomp. BB is also > Kaidou anyway imo, so yeah. And BB calling Kaidou a monster describes his Zoan not strictly his strength
> 
> 3. Kaidou is in another league from Katakuri; I don’t believe he is from Marco. Marco specifically took hits from individuals >= Kaidou in MF (Admirals) and wasn’t one shot


PreTS MFwar admirals >= current Kaido? Damn thats a reach.

Im not even sure if payback war teach > current Kaido.

Marco ~ Katakuri < PostWanoTraining Luffy imo



Turrin said:


> Yeah Aokiji / Akainu Low: Mid Diff Kaidou. WB is also stronger then Kaidou so how the Admirals performed against him is irrelevant



Every time I read this, idk..and you are talking preTS admirals now even?


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> PreTS MFwar admirals >= current Kaido? Damn thats a reach.
> 
> Im not even sure if payback war teach > current Kaido.
> 
> ...


Why is is a reach Admirals we’re competing with WSM whose > Kaidou


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## Lyren (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> You said Buggy & company didn’t change the outcome of the war, they did. I never claimed Buggy was useful 1v1; but WB didn’t just want to recruits Buggy; like the Minks wanted to just recruit Marco.


No my point was that WB recruiting Buggy and his crew doesnt mean that they are stronger than Garp or any of the admirals. They want Marco as an additional force and that is it.


Turrin said:


> 2. No bounty indicates ‘threat’ to the WG. Right now Kaidou is a bigger ‘threat’ to the WG then Teach because Kaidou has a 20K Strong Crew, access to cloned DF, control of Wano, ties to Doflamingo, and so on. From what we have seen Shanks and Teach only have their individual power and their far smaller crews; they don’t have the massive territory or influence of Yonko like BM and Kaidou; as they have been in circulation for much less time.


I know that they mainly define one's bounty regarding the threat he poses to the govt but strength also plays its part on it. Kaido armies, aka his commanders have their own bounties anyway.
Teach was hunting devil fruits over the 2 past years and even have 2 titanic captains now but Kaido having the double amount of his bounty is just too much.
Why don't you never ever assume that BM and Kaido got their reputation, bounty and fame thanks to their own strength which was always their portrayal throughout the manga as very very strong individuals. 


Turrin said:


> 3. WB could have reached PK status if he wanted to; or at the very least he was the closest to the throne by far; and he rivaled Roger in strength at certain points in a way that none of the other Yonko have. It’s clear he is cut above the rest; and as such I see no reason why his FM, especially with a TS to become even stronger couldn’t also be a cut above other YFM.


Roger said that it was WB himself who deserved to be a pirate king. Marco or his crew are irrelevant here since he didnt even mention them.


Turrin said:


> 4. Dude there is zero indication Kaidou would beat 3 Admirals at once. In-fact the opposite is indicated. When mentioning how to stop BM; and Kaidou; Kizaru is ready to go solo to deal with the situation, and Akainu seems to think he can, but his concern is the Samurai of Wano not Kaidou or BM individually. And that’s exactly why they are concerned about the Yonko alliance, 2 Yonko combining isn’t good because of the sum total of their resources and armies. Additionally people seem to think the idea of 2 Yonko combining means the Marines are going to go to war with those Yonko exclusively, but that’s not the case; the Marines still need to keep tabs on the other 2 Yonko at the same time. So they may not be able to even afford their full resource to fighting Mom and Kaidou forces.


Ok and why don't you bring the Sengoku and Akainu discussion example ?  when Akainu wanted to set sail to Wano to deal with the situation, Sengoku clearly warned him and said that Kaido and Big mom strength is more terrifying than their past selves ans this is the strongest pirate crew aside from rocks. He clearly holds them in high esteem when it comes to power and this is the same sengoku who tought of Teach as a novice and brat when he fought him. 


Turrin said:


> Marco did better against Admirals who are >= Kaidou then Luffy >= Katakuri did against Kaidou. That’s enough to say his performance is better to me but I can understand why you would think otherwise if you think Kaidou > 3 Admirals.


Admirals arent individually stronger than the Yonko, actually no Yonko gives a fuck about the world governement nor fears their forces while the opposite isnt true. 
I dont think Kaido is stronger than 3 admirals at once but would definitely win mid diff against any of them bar Akainu one on one (Akainu just pushes him to high diff lol) he is called the strongest creature for a reason. 


Turrin said:


> 5. It resulted in Oden dying do to the schemes of the Hag; not because Oden couldn’t take Kaidou. Orochi was flat out wrong there


Idk why Kaido killed the hag in fact  
Oden admitted that Kaido is very strong so Orochi isnt that wrong and the CP0 shutting their mouths proves it.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2020)

People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Zero (Mar 3, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.


 Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Why is is a reach Admirals we’re competing with WSM whose > Kaidou


Prime WB > Current Kaido I accept, the rest is all speculation by you. And most likely also even false.

MF old and sick WB < old WB <(<) Prime WB

MF WB >(=, but most likely >)MF Admirals in a 1v1

Old WB was likely not much stronger than current Kaido and MF WB was likely not stronger than current Kaido.

Current Kaido >= old and sick WB >= MF Admirals


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## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2020)

FlyingBison said:


> Phoenix is >= Eastern Dragon



Yes, yes. How could I forget?


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.


I mean, he does both. He even puts preTS Kizaru above Kaido.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> I mean, he does both. He even puts preTS Kizaru and Marco above Kaido.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Prime WB > Current Kaido I accept, the rest is all speculation by you. And most likely also even false.
> 
> MF old and sick WB < old WB <(<) Prime WB
> 
> ...


It’s not speculation; Old/Sick WB was called WSM which means he’s stronger then Kaidou. Yes you can argue that by the end of the battle WB due to injury and exhaustion may have been weaker then Kaidou (though we don’t know that); he was beyond Kaidou in the beginning and the Admirals were clashing evenly with him in the beginning of the fight

At best you can argue Kaidou could also do as well as the Admirals, but there is no proof of that; Kaidou has never gone up against WB or someone on WB level and done that well. The three top tier he fought so far we’re Shanks who he seemingly cucked down to (or their wasn’t a fight), Oden who slapped him, and Old BM who he fought equally with despite her missing her homies for 24 hours and couldn’t win (and BM even at her best isn’t confirmed to be WB level).



DiscoZoro20 said:


> People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.


I put him equal to Kaidou


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Lyren said:


> No my point was that WB recruiting Buggy and his crew doesnt mean that they are stronger than Garp or any of the admirals. They want Marco as an additional force and that is it.
> 
> I know that they mainly define one's bounty regarding the threat he poses to the govt but strength also plays its part on it. Kaido armies, aka his commanders have their own bounties anyway.
> Teach was hunting devil fruits over the 2 past years and even have 2 titanic captains now but Kaido having the double amount of his bounty is just too much.
> ...


1. Of course it doesn’t because he wasn’t recruiting Buggy to face Garp; he was recruiting Buggy and his army to bulster his forces; this is different then recruiting Marco for his individual strength 

2. BM and Kaidou got their bounty on strength, but they also got it due to their crews and influence. Bounties are nonsense in terms of PL; if you really want to go that route I can show you why, but I shouldn’t have to 

3. Again WB is a cut above the other Yonko so it stands to reason his crew is as well

4. Please note that once again Sengoku we’re talking about their combined might; their unified crew was a threat to Akainu; not them individually; this was the same sentiment that Akainu said to Kizaru; it wasn’t an issue that he couldn’t stop them; it was their resources like Wano.  The fact that we keep having admirals believing they can stop BM and/or Kaidou and people stopping them due to their military might rather then individual power doesn’t help your case; it hurts it. 

5. And like I said you have no evidence to asset Kaidou beats Admirals Mid-Diff; Admirals have better feats, have been willing to take on Yonko; and successfully took on thee strongest Yonko WB.

6. Oden saying Kaidou is strong doesn’t change the fact that Orochi was wrong about Kaidou keeping him safe from Oden; your just taking the opinion of someone who is very poor source period


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It’s not speculation; Old/Sick WB was called WSM which means he’s stronger then Kaidou. Yes you can argue that by the end of the battle WB due to injury and exhaustion may have been weaker then Kaidou (though we don’t know that); he was beyond Kaidou in the beginning and the Admirals were clashing evenly with him in the beginning of the fight



I am so confused. So MF WB = MF Admiral > Current Kaido = BM = Marco

So basically 3MF admirals > MF WB + current Kaido and Big Mom

And Marco + MF Kizaru > 2 yonko 

Wow that is a reach for me. If it is your opinion I accept it but that is way different from my perspective.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> I am so confused. So MF WB = MF Admiral > Current Kaido = BM = Marco
> 
> So basically 3MF admirals > MF WB + current Kaido and Big Mom
> 
> ...


MF WB > Akainu (Small Gap) > Aokiji > > Kaidou, I’m not sure on BM and Kizaru they are wild card.

3MF admirals might be > BM, MF WB, and Kaidou; idk, because we don’t know if any of the Admirals can stop MF WB world ending power; but outside of that yeah they would beat those 3.

Marco = Kaidou (Weakest or 2nd Weakest Yonko); so Marco + Kizaru, might be able to beat 2 Yonko or they may loose. Kizaru is an unknown.


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## Lyren (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Of course it doesn’t because he wasn’t recruiting Buggy to face Garp; he was recruiting Buggy and his army to bulster his forces; this is different then recruiting Marco for his individual strength


Recruiting Marco for his individual strength to strenghten their force not for him to beat Kaido, you answered yourself. Also if Marco was that strong, Shanks wouldnt intercept Kaido to defend Whitebeard from him.


Turrin said:


> 2. BM and Kaidou got their bounty on strength, but they also got it due to their crews and influence. Bounties are nonsense in terms of PL; if you really want to go that route I can show you why, but I shouldn’t have to


You say that they got it based on their strength to then claim bounties are nonsense in terms for PL because it doesnt match with your beliefs regarding certain characters ? While i agree on it not only being about strength but a whole 2B difference indicate strength to some extent. The more we progress, the more w3 face stronger enemies with higher bounties. 
Yes im curious how it is nonsensical to power levels?


Turrin said:


> 3. Again WB is a cut above the other Yonko so it stands to reason his crew is as well


Primebeard is but sick beard is equal to them.


Turrin said:


> 4. Please note that once again Sengoku we’re talking about their combined might; their unified crew was a threat to Akainu; not them individually; this was the same sentiment that Akainu said to Kizaru; it wasn’t an issue that he couldn’t stop them; it was their resources like Wano. The fact that we keep having admirals believing they can stop BM and/or Kaidou and people stopping them due to their military might rather then individual power doesn’t help your case; it hurts it.


Big mom talked to Kaido without necessary making sure the marines couldnt hear their conversation, which means she doesnt fear them either; Just like the admirals are confident on taking on Yonko, Yonko doesnt fear them.
Akainu and Kizaru are the kind of cooky guys thinking they can take on Rayleigh and Whitebeard lol so their confidence is as much factor as Orochi's. 


Turrin said:


> 5. And like I said you have no evidence to asset Kaidou beats Admirals Mid-Diff; Admirals have better feats, have been willing to take on Yonko; and successfully took on thee strongest Yonko WB.


You dont have evidence more than i do. First off, Kaido portrayal as a yonko and WB equal puts the admirals title to shame in front of him and two yonko alliance > Whole marine forces. Secondly, Kaido casually one shots G4 level opponents while Fujitora stuggles against G3 Luffy. that says a lot.


Turrin said:


> 6. Oden saying Kaidou is strong doesn’t change the fact that Orochi was wrong about Kaidou keeping him safe from Oden; your just taking the opinion of someone who is very poor source period


Did Orochi die ? No. So he was right about Kaido being capable of protecting him. 
The fact that CP 0 didnt respond back proves Orochi is right.


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## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2020)

In a 1on1 always bet on Marco/Kizaru.


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> MF WB > Akainu (Small Gap) > Aokiji > > Kaidou, I’m not sure on BM and Kizaru they are wild card.
> 
> 3MF admirals might be > BM, MF WB, and Kaidou; idk, because we don’t know if any of the Admirals can stop MF WB world ending power; but outside of that yeah they would beat those 3.
> 
> Marco = Kaidou (Weakest or 2nd Weakest Yonko); so Marco + Kizaru, might be able to beat 2 Yonko or they may loose. Kizaru is an unknown.


Lets agree to disagree then. Imo current Kaido = BM > MF Akainu >= MF Aokiji => MF Kizaru > Marco

Old WB >(=) Kaido probably, old and sick WB not sure.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> Lets agree to disagree then. Imo current Kaido = BM > MF Akainu >= MF Aokiji => MF Kizaru > Marco
> 
> Old WB >(=) Kaido probably, old and sick WB not sure.


Yeah I just don’t see how Akainu as a future major enemy for Luffy could be weaker then Kadiou Luffy current major enemy. The Admirals also just have way better performances then Kaidou so far.

Things could change; and Kaidou could break the mold, hut I just got to go with what has been shown to be the case historically



DiscoZoro20 said:


> In a 1on1 always bet on Marco/Kizaru.


Unless there are hostages, then only then bet on Liadou


----------



## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Yeah I just don’t see how Akainu as a future major enemy for Luffy could be weaker then Kadiou Luffy current major enemy. The Admirals also just have way better performances then Kaidou so far.
> 
> Things could change; and Kaidou could break the mold, hut I just got to go with what has been shown to be the case historically


With post Wano FA Akainu, if much stronger than preTS,  I can somehow accept it. MF admirals or marco, no.

I think the Kaido fight and later fight with Akainu/Blackbeard will not be the same. Like Katakuri fight was quite literally 1v1. I dont think that will happen. Kaido will be more a tag team where Luffy still does most (as 1 person) but not close to all damage. A bit like MF war how WB was defeated by multiple people, but some doing way more significant damage than others. 

Akainu/BB will be more like katakuri or DD I think, Luffy doing basically all work still or somewhat 2v1.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> With post Wano FA Akainu, if much stronger than preTS,  I can somehow accept it. MF admirals or marco, no.
> 
> I think the Kaido fight and later fight with Akainu/Blackbeard will not be the same. Like Katakuri fight was quite literally 1v1. I dont think that will happen. Kaido will be more a tag team where Luffy still does most (as 1 person) but not close to all damage. A bit like MF war how WB was defeated by multiple people, but some doing way more significant damage than others.
> 
> Akainu/BB will be more like katakuri or DD I think, Luffy doing basically all work still or somewhat 2v1.


I don’t see why you would accept Post Timeskip Akainu being stronger but not Pre.

Whether it’s a Tag team or 1v1; if Luffy delivers the final blow to Kaidou; there is simply no precedence for any antagonist who Luffy has delivered the final blow too; being >= to the next major antagonist Luffy defeats; in the entire manga. So I still don’t see it as likely that Kaidou is >= Akainu


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## Ludi (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t see why you would accept Post Timeskip Akainu being stronger but not Pre.
> 
> Whether it’s a Tag team or 1v1; if Luffy delivers the final blow to Kaidou; there is simply no precedence for any antagonist who Luffy has delivered the final blow too; being >= to the next major antagonist Luffy defeats; in the entire manga. So I still don’t see it as likely that Kaidou is >= Akainu


I didnt just say postTS. I said postTS FA Akainu if much stronger than preTS.

I dont know, maybe his fight with Aokiji made him awaken something or improved his Haki extremely.

If current postTS FA Akainu =~ preTS Akainu > postTS Aokiji>=all other marines then I think all marines are fodder for the rest of the series or the Yonko meant fuck all before TS and it is really strange why the marines never just cleared them. 2 admirals would basically low diff beast/bm pirates then..

If Luffy does signifanly most damage (lets say 30-70%, idk), but alone isnt strong enough to finish hin and Law, Kidd and Zoro (or whatever) do remaining% together but none more than Luffy and Luffy does the final blow as always, then it isnt that unlikely. I think it will go like that. Current Akainu being <=> kaido (similar tier) then doesnt sound illogical.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Recruiting Marco for his individual strength to strenghten their force not for him to beat Kaido, you answered yourself. Also if Marco was that strong, Shanks wouldnt intercept Kaido to defend Whitebeard from him.
> 
> You say that they got it based on their strength to then claim bounties are nonsense in terms for PL because it doesnt match with your beliefs regarding certain characters ? While i agree on it not only being about strength but a whole 2B difference indicate strength to some extent. The more we progress, the more w3 face stronger enemies with higher bounties.
> Yes im curious how it is nonsensical to power levels?
> ...


1. Here’s my question if the Minks / Scabbers weren’t counting on Marco to beat Kaidou (or put in most of the work against Kaidou) who were they expecting to do so? Pre-WCI Luffy? 

2. Ussop bounty after DR is 200Mil; this exceeds even Sanji Bounty after DR; and is over double Franky / Brooks Bounties. Are you going to really argue DR Ussop is the third strongest straw hat. Is Bart stronger then Sanji and only rivaled by Ussop; since he has 200Mil too; is Cavendish >= Zoro with 330Mil bounty. Is Alabast Daz Bones still SH middle trio level since he has 75mil. Etc..

3. Sick Beard was still WSM; so he is above them 

4. Big Mom is also insane and Kaidou is suicidal; there opinions matter a lot less then the rational and sane Admirals; also BM and Kaidou never talked about their individual strength in relation to the Admirals; yeah they aren’t afraid as they have massive armies. This is unlike Kizaru saying he would personally go deal with both Kaidou & Big Mom

5. Akainu did competently take on WB; he didn’t win but he put up a good fight; and Kizaru had Raleigh panting while fighting him In a sword duel that’s competently fighting two individuals with far better hype then what Kaidou has competently fought 

6. Correction Kaidou is portrayed as a Yonko; not WB equal; anymore then AB Crocodile as a Warlord is equal to Mihawk. The Admirals actually took on WB competently countering his attacks; landing their own; etc... Kaidou hasn’t take on someone confirmed to be that level successfully; he cuck’d to Shanks, Tied with a weakened BM (who also isn’t confirmed to be that level); and got slapped by Oden. So yes the Admirals performance against WB is evidence that Kaidou doesn’t have. 

I never said Fujitora was on that level: but he was jobbing against Luffy anyway; so that’s irrelevant 

7. No he wasn’t; Kaidou did not protect him; the Hag did.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

Ludi said:


> I didnt just say postTS. I said postTS FA Akainu if much stronger than preTS.
> 
> I dont know, maybe his fight with Aokiji made him awaken something or improved his Haki extremely.
> 
> ...


Sure he could have gotten stronger; I was asking why you think he would need to have gotten stronger to be > Kaidou?

The problem is your making it out like Akainu and Aokiji could have just strolled up to WCI and Wano and challenged BM and Kaidou 1v1, but they can’t; they have to overcome their entire armies as well as BM and Kaidou.

That’s the same thing that happened with Doffy and Law; and how would Doffy fair against Katakuri?


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## Quipchaque (Mar 3, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Unless there are hostages, then only then bet on Liadou



I will bet on both of them.


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## Turrin (Mar 3, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I will bet on both of them.


Both of the hostages?


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Both of the hostages?



Yes them too.


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## Ludi (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Sure he could have gotten stronger; I was asking why you think he would need to have gotten stronger to be > Kaidou?
> 
> The problem is your making it out like Akainu and Aokiji could have just strolled up to WCI and Wano and challenged BM and Kaidou 1v1, but they can’t; they have to overcome their entire armies as well as BM and Kaidou.
> 
> That’s the same thing that happened with Doffy and Law; and how would Doffy fair against Katakuri?


I mean, it looks like BM > BMcrew, as the gap between YFM and a Yonko looks enormous. So if a preTSadmiral > BM, then 2 admirals should always have done the job. They could even just add another one or some VAs with their crew on WCI then and it would be a low diff basically. Same with Wano. I think thats not happening. I see admirals more as clearly above YFM but a bit below (lowAdmirals) or around(Akainu) (low)Yonko, even if Kaido/BM < Shanks/BB and exactly therefore a good step for Luffy after Wano.

Anyway, I think Akainu needs hella upgrades or show them anyway to be > any yonko. And I think Akainu likely > the other admirals in that case.

Again, lets agree to disagree and let the topic be ontopic now.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Ludi said:


> I mean, it looks like BM > BMcrew, as the gap between YFM and a Yonko looks enormous. So if a preTSadmiral > BM, then 2 admirals should always have done the job. They could even just add another one or some VAs with their crew on WCI then and it would be a low diff basically. Same with Wano. I think thats not happening. I see admirals more as clearly above YFM but a bit below (lowAdmirals) or around(Akainu) (low)Yonko, even if Kaido/BM < Shanks/BB and exactly therefore a good step for Luffy after Wano.
> 
> Anyway, I think Akainu needs hella upgrades or show them anyway to be > any yonko. And I think Akainu likely > the other admirals in that case.
> 
> Again, lets agree to disagree and let the topic be ontopic now.


Your again only talking about Yonko and YFM vs Admirals; it wouldn’t go down that way. If two Admirals rolled up on WCI; it’s more like BM + several thousand homies vs Admiral 1; and Sweet Commanders + Officers + Entire BM Pirates / Family. 2 Admirals are losing in that scenario regardless of how much stronger they are then BM. Maybe 2 Admirals could get the job done with high difficulty if they brought several thousand marines, including some of the stronger VAs / RAs.  But at that point a massive force is being dedicated; and probably a good bit of it lost: leaving the World Vulnerable to other NW Pirates / Yonko. If Kaidou then attacked Marijoa or the Marines with his 20K army: maybe they could still win even in that scenario, but the marines would be so weakened after that fight that the Path would be pretty clear for Teach or another NW Pirate to do whatever they want. 

The idea that Admirals are in an area between YFM and Yonko; would have been fine if Luffy had beaten an Admiral before he is going to beat a Yonko. But since that isn’t happening and a Yonko is specifically being used as his entry to ‘Top Tier’ it’s clear that the Admirals are ether equal with the weaker ones scaling to Kaidou; and the stronger ones scaling to WB/Shanks; or they scale higher with even the weakest being at least a little stronger then Kaidou. In the same way Doffy was used as the entrance to YC level, with most YC being >= Doffy.

But why do you think he needs upgrades to be equal to any Yonko. What have the Yonko shown that makes you believe they can easily deal with what he’s already shown. Akainu was able to counter attacks from the strongest Yonko; and had one of the highest offensive DF in the series. He also beat Aokiji another Top Tier that showed the ability to fight WB and counter his moves. 

And yes we can agree to disagree


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## Ludi (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Your again only talking about Yonko and YFM vs Admirals; it wouldn’t go down that way. If two Admirals rolled up on WCI; it’s more like BM + several thousand homies vs Admiral 1; and Sweet Commanders + Officers + Entire BM Pirates / Family. 2 Admirals are losing in that scenario regardless of how much stronger they are then BM. Maybe 2 Admirals could get the job done with high difficulty if they brought several thousand marines, including some of the stronger VAs / RAs.  But at that point a massive force is being dedicated; and probably a good bit of it lost: leaving the World Vulnerable to other NW Pirates / Yonko. If Kaidou then attacked Marijoa or the Marines with his 20K army: maybe they could still win even in that scenario, but the marines would be so weakened after that fight that the Path would be pretty clear for Teach or another NW Pirate to do whatever they want.
> 
> The idea that Admirals are in an area between YFM and Yonko; would have been fine if Luffy had beaten an Admiral before he is going to beat a Yonko. But since that isn’t happening and a Yonko is specifically being used as his entry to ‘Top Tier’ it’s clear that the Admirals are ether equal with the weaker ones scaling to Kaidou; and the stronger ones scaling to WB/Shanks; or they scale higher with even the weakest being at least a little stronger then Kaidou. In the same way Doffy was used as the entrance to YC level, with most YC being >= Doffy.
> 
> ...


All your arguments only hold if Luffy (basically) solos Kaido, which I dont see happening. And then still only if current Akainu ~ preTS Akainu. In all other cases he needs to overcome a still largre gap to be able to fight another Yonko (blackbeard, whether he is > Kaido or not does not matter in that case) solo, via beating an admiral most likely.

I think current kaido / BM or any yonko in general > any preTS admiral in a 1v1 and also any admiral who is ~ any preTS admiral in power. Because that is exacty how they are portrayed. If current Akainu > current Kaido then therefore he must be > himself preTS.

And i am not a Kaido or BM fan in the slightest. But I dont think we can convince eachother, in this topic or another one.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Ludi said:


> All your arguments only hold if Luffy (basically) solos Kaido, which I dont see happening. And then still only if current Akainu ~ preTS Akainu. In all other cases he needs to overcome a still largre gap to be able to fight another Yonko (blackbeard, whether he is > Kaido or not does not matter in that case) solo, via beating an admiral most likely.
> 
> I think current kaido / BM or any yonko in general > any preTS admiral in a 1v1 and also any admiral who is ~ any preTS admiral in power. Because that is exacty how they are portrayed. If current Akainu > current Kaido then therefore he must be > himself preTS.
> 
> And i am not a Kaido or BM fan in the slightest. But I dont think we can convince eachother, in this topic or another one.


Luffy has basically solo’d every antagonist he’s actually beaten so why don’t you see him soloing Kaidou as ‘likely’. You can say you think there is a chance Kaidou could break the mold and Luffy gets significant help, but that should be viewed as the ‘unlikely’ outcome, given how One Piece has been historically written. That’s all I’m saying. 

I’m not necessarily against the idea that Admirals got stronger (especially Akainu over the TS), but what I keep asking you, and I don’t seem to be getting the answer is when was Pre-TS Akainu  portrayed beneath Kaidou; because from where I’m standing he fought competently against a Yonko whose stronger then Kaidou Pre-TS and beat Aokiji who also fought competently against that same stronger Yonko.


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## Lyren (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Here’s my question if the Minks / Scabbers weren’t counting on Marco to beat Kaidou (or put in most of the work against Kaidou) who were they expecting to do so? Pre-WCI Luffy?


The whole alliance. Marco was never meant to be a central element here.


Turrin said:


> 2. Ussop bounty after DR is 200Mil; this exceeds even Sanji Bounty after DR; and is over double Franky / Brooks Bounties. Are you going to really argue DR Ussop is the third strongest straw hat. Is Bart stronger then Sanji and only rivaled by Ussop; since he has 200Mil too; is Cavendish >= Zoro with 330Mil bounty. Is Alabast Daz Bones still SH middle trio level since he has 75mil. Etc..


Ussop have high bounties because of his lucky accomplishements that makes the govt think he is dangerous and strong. It is more of a comedic thing than to be taken seriously. Hakuba should be comparable to Zoro given his speed so yeah. Bounty still refers to strength to some extent by World govt standard and that of Yonkos are pretty much accurate ones since they are the strongest individuals in the sea.


Turrin said:


> 3. Sick Beard was still WSM; so he is above them


Lol if you really take that route, Kaido is the strongest creature which includes mankind 


Turrin said:


> 4. Big Mom is also insane and Kaidou is suicidal; there opinions matter a lot less then the rational and sane Admirals; also BM and Kaidou never talked about their individual strength in relation to the Admirals; yeah they aren’t afraid as they have massive armies. This is unlike Kizaru saying he would personally go deal with both Kaidou & Big Mom


Implying Kizaru would go there alone ? Akainu would send decent fightersnas back up with hip such as Gion and Chaton who are admiral level fighters and some other vice admirals. If one Yonko made the marines prepare all HQ forces and summon Shichibukais then Kizaru is never going alone against two.


Turrin said:


> 5. Akainu did competently take on WB; he didn’t win but he put up a good fight; and Kizaru had Raleigh panting while fighting him In a sword duel that’s competently fighting two individuals with far better hype then what Kaidou has competently fought


He didnt put a good fight. Whitebeard was about to die and yet managed to two shot him, Akainu survived only thanks to plot armor since he was intended to die this very moment.
There is literally nothing putting Rayleigh or Kizaru above Kaido except your stance on it.


Turrin said:


> 6. Correction Kaidou is portrayed as a Yonko; not WB equal; anymore then AB Crocodile as a Warlord is equal to Mihawk. The Admirals actually took on WB competently countering his attacks; landing their own; etc... Kaidou hasn’t take on someone confirmed to be that level successfully; he cuck’d to Shanks, Tied with a weakened BM (who also isn’t confirmed to be that level); and got slapped by Oden. So yes the Admirals performance against WB is evidence that Kaidou doesn’t have.


Well he have a title similar to WB : strongest creature so he is logically even superior to him in his sick state   Shanks and his crew came unscathered to marineford so a fight didnt happen between these two. 
5 yo Big mom was hyped to be fleet admiral level in the near future and the toughest shield of Celestial dragons and you're telling me it is not confirmed that she is stronger than admirals ?
The new admirals even struggled against RA fodder commanders, that says a lot 


Turrin said:


> I never said Fujitora was on that level: but he was jobbing against Luffy anyway; so that’s irrel


Luffy wasnt serious either, i wonder why Fujitora was the one sweating during their fight and not exhausted luffy from doffy fight


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## Dunno (Mar 4, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.


Well, next to Kizaru and above Kaido is pretty much the same thing, so you actually agree with him.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ludi (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Luffy has basically solo’d every antagonist he’s actually beaten so why don’t you see him soloing Kaidou as ‘likely’. You can say you think there is a chance Kaidou could break the mold and Luffy gets significant help, but that should be viewed as the ‘unlikely’ outcome, given how One Piece has been historically written. That’s all I’m saying.
> 
> I’m not necessarily against the idea that Admirals got stronger (especially Akainu over the TS), but what I keep asking you, and I don’t seem to be getting the answer is when was Pre-TS Akainu  portrayed beneath Kaidou; because from where I’m standing he fought competently against a Yonko whose stronger then Kaidou Pre-TS and beat Aokiji who also fought competently against that same stronger Yonko.


In that fight, against old and sick WB I think in a 1v1 all admirals would still lose, if any of them had to fight beginning of MF. And I think old WB > Kaido >(=) old and sick WB with no Haki.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Lyren said:


> The whole alliance. Marco was never meant to be a central element here.
> 
> Ussop have high bounties because of his lucky accomplishements that makes the govt think he is dangerous and strong. It is more of a comedic thing than to be taken seriously. Hakuba should be comparable to Zoro given his speed so yeah. Bounty still refers to strength to some extent by World govt standard and that of Yonkos are pretty much accurate ones since they are the strongest individuals in the sea.
> 
> ...


1. The Whole Alliance is meant to take on Kaidou 20K Crew, Numbers, Disasters, and Wano Forces under Orochi control. So again I ask if Marco was not meant to be one of the main forces against Kaidou what contingent of there force did they expect to beat Kaidou?

2. Ussop never accomplished anything strength wise is the point. Hakuba is comparable to zoro 


3. And I don’t agree that WSC refers to mankind; and is just a reference to his Zoan; but if your disagree that’s fine 

4. So what if he did send other fighters; Kaidou and BM have their crews too. The implication is that Kizaru could handle BM &/or Kaidou without issue 

5. Akainu also took half of WB face so let’s not start with that. And there is literally nothing putting Kaidou on the level of Raleigh and Kizaru ether, except Assumptions 

6. The titles aren’t similar.... Big Mom may have been above or equal to admirals in her Prime; but now as an Old Mad Woman; who is missing many of her homies; not so much 

7. I don’t care about Fujitora


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Ludi said:


> In that fight, against old and sick WB I think in a 1v1 all admirals would still lose, if any of them had to fight beginning of MF. And I think old WB > Kaido >(=) old and sick WB with no Haki.


I would agree that WB would have won but it would have been with extreme difficulty. And I don’t agree Kaidou > WB at any point in the fight.at MF until maybe he was extremely weakened, but then so was Akainu taking a direct hit from WB


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## Quipchaque (Mar 4, 2020)

Dunno said:


> Well, next to Kizaru and above Kaido is pretty much the same thing, so you actually agree with him.



￼￼ 




 boomer.


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## Lyren (Mar 4, 2020)

I tought ive answered this... Guess i didnt lol


Turrin said:


> 1. The Whole Alliance is meant to take on Kaidou 20K Crew, Numbers, Disasters, and Wano Forces under Orochi control. So again I ask if Marco was not meant to be one of the main forces against Kaidou what contingent of there force did they expect to beat Kaidou?


Being one of the main forces to take down Kaido doesnt mean he is his equal. Marco wasnt even considered by Law and Luffy so he is just an extra added force, not a central element.


Turrin said:


> 2. Ussop never accomplished anything strength wise is the point


To the readers yes but not to the marines given his achievements. Anyways, he is a special case, a comedix purpose more precisely.


Turrin said:


> 4. So what if he did send other fighters; Kaidou and BM have their crews too. The implication is that Kizaru could handle BM &/or Kaidou without issue


Back up plays a very important part and is the key word, if it is by the two admiral level fighters it would be just similar to the strongest marine forces and not Kizaru alone if you get what i mean. 2 yonkos and 3 admirals. The crew is dealt with by marines foot soldiers because a single yonko with his crew is worth whole marine HQ and shichibukai.


Turrin said:


> 5. Akainu also took half of WB face so let’s not start with that. And there is literally nothing putting Kaidou on the level of Raleigh and Kizaru ether, except Assumptions


Took half of an old dying man face but was still two shoted by him. So impressive.
His portrayal does, at least. An interesting thing i tought of was Doffy being scared shitless of angering Kaido and yet went to fight against WB and was not afraid of two admirals : Kuzan and Fuji, and even planned to kill Fuji.


Turrin said:


> 6. The titles aren’t similar.... Big Mom may have been above or equal to admirals in her Prime; but now as an Old Mad Woman; who is missing many of her homies; not so much


There are 0 indications about Big mom weakening throughout those last years


Turrin said:


> 7. I don’t care about Fujitora


Well he scales to the admirals you have such high hopes for so his piss poor showings unfortunately also scale to them to an extent against New world fighters.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Lyren said:


> I tought ive answered this... Guess i didnt lol
> 
> Being one of the main forces to take down Kaido doesnt mean he is his equal. Marco wasnt even considered by Law and Luffy so he is just an extra added force, not a central element.
> 
> ...


1. Cool so who were the minks expecting to help Marco significantly with taking down Kaidou?

2. Huh what did Ussop accomplish that the marines would look at and say dam that’s a bigger accomplishment strength wise then Sanji, Franky, Brook, ill wait....

3. I actually have no clue what your trying to say here

4. Yes it is impressive; he took a hit from WSM, survived it, and took WB face; and then took another hit and was still alive

5. Doffy wasn’t afraid of the Admirals because he believed the intel and status he had kept him safe.

6. Can you show me an indication that she didn’t weaken with age or losing her homies which would be the natural assumption?

7. No he doesn’t; not all Admirals are equal and nether are the Yonko


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Cool so who were the minks expecting to help Marco significantly with taking down Kaidou?
> 
> 2. Huh what did Ussop accomplish that the marines would look at and say dam that’s a bigger accomplishment strength wise then Sanji, Franky, Brook, ill wait....
> 
> ...



My guy the scabbards are attacking Kaidou+Big Mom WITHOUT MARCO AND THE STRAWHATS. It's literally a suicide mission, they were trying to get as much help as they could so they could increase their chances. How does asking Marco for help to take down Kaidou and his crew mean Marco>Kaidou. You're just reaching to fit your agenda.

Usopp's bounty is clearly a meme and Ussop usually gets a lot of credit for shit that he didn't actually do. You could see that all throughout Dressrosa. Answer me this Blackbeard overwhelmingly defeated WB and his crew. Blackbeard has a bounty of 2.2million. Why would the world government give Blackbeard half of Kaidou's bounty for "obliterating" someone stronger than Kaidou?

Whether WB was actually the WSM at MF is unknown but I highly doubt he was. Even Marco his right-hand man was surprised by how much weaker/slower WB was that Squardo was able to stab him when he used to stomp Ace in his sleep.  He was clearly a far diminished version of himself and was having heart attacks in the middle of battles. Obviously you aren't gonna agree with this because you somehow believe that WB can low diff Kaidou and he actually has planetary destructibility. WB was nerfed hard in MF with his age, sickness, heart attacks, and was stabbed through the chest from Squardo and was still shown as superior to Akainu. I find it unlikely that the outcome would be the same against the other 3 greatest pirates of the current generation (Shanks, Big Mom and Kaidou).

Why would we assume Big Mom's weakened with age when it's never been suggested once. She's a physical freak and that's been highlighted 1000x times. Oda already stated that he wants old characters to be strong. It was actually stated and clearly shown to us that WB became far weaker than what he was at his prime. Big Mom losing her homies makes her slightly weaker but Kaidou wasn't shown using hybrid either. The scene was depicted to portray Big Mom and Kaidou as near equals. Obviously Kaidou has the slightly better hype/portrayal so far so he's likely slightly ahead but the fight would be extreme diff.

Colour trio have all had similar feats and portrayal. Fuji is most likely ~ their level even if he's very slightly weaker. and Big Mom, Shanks and Kaidou are very likely all near eachother's level.

You're too focused on your own plot of One Piece that you're ignoring what's actually been shown in the manga.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> Colour trio have all had similar feats and portrayal. Fuji is most likely ~ their level even if he's very slightly weaker. and Big Mom, Shanks and Kaidou are very likely all near eachother's level.
> 
> You're too focused on your own plot of One Piece that you're ignoring what's actually been shown in the manga.


1. Yes now that there plan failed they are willing to suicide as a last ditch effort. That doesn’t mean they weren’t planning to win before; so again I ask who did they expect to beat Kaidou other then Marco.

2. Because again Kaidou bounty isn’t due to his individual power it’s due to his threat to the WG with his 20K Crew, Numbers, Disasters, Wano, Underworld connections, and so on

3. WB was nerfed yet he was still WSM. If you want me to believe Kaidou is stronger then MF WB show me him having better feats; you can’t though because every time he goes against a Top Tier he looses; or at best draws with a nerfed  BM.

4. Every other Old character go weaker the burden of proof is on you to show that BM aging significantly and putting on several tons of weight didn’t slow her down or weaken her. And they fought for a day; so prove to me Kaidou didn’t use his hybrid forms; prove to me that he could have won without extreme diff (or even won at all). You can’t.

5. I don’t care if you think Fuji is on their level or not; it’s not something that’s probable; and therefore not relevant to the discussion

What has been shown in one piece is Kaidou performing poorly against every Top Tier he’s faced.


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## Lyren (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Cool so who were the minks expecting to help Marco significantly with taking down Kaidou?


Nekomamushi didnt seem to be that much worried or disappointed when Marco refused.


Turrin said:


> 2. Huh what did Ussop accomplish that the marines would look at and say dam that’s a bigger accomplishment strength wise then Sanji, Franky, Brook, ill wait....


Basically what Ezekijunior said. You're bringing a comedic relief example to proof your point which is really poor lol, why dont you talk about consistent bounties with strength like that of Yonko commanders. Queen with 1.2 B bounty was two shoted by haki less Big mom who shares 4B.


Turrin said:


> 3. I actually have no clue what your trying to say here


Im saying that the back up really matters in this case as Kizaru isnt going there alone and Momousagi, Chaton are here at Sakazuki disposal.


Turrin said:


> 4. Yes it is impressive; he took a hit from WSM, survived it, and took WB face; and then took another hit and was still alive


Survived due to plot armor* and Akainu tbh is a short cut above the other admirals and yet couldnt handle WB at his dizzying state. Kaido who shares the same title : Yonko and WSM isnt losing to him at this state, never ever.


Turrin said:


> 5. Doffy wasn’t afraid of the Admirals because he believed the intel and status he had kept him safe.


Kuzan wasnt an admiral anymore yet he didnt fear him. 
He even planned to kill Fujitora while shitting his pants at the idea of angering Kaido.


Turrin said:


> 6. Can you show me an indication that she didn’t weaken with age or losing her homies which would be the natural assumption?


She never complained about her old age nor people around her did, which is not the case with weakened people due to old age like Garp, Rayleigh and WB. 
Big mom is fleet admiral level at the very least and Kaido stalemated her.


Turrin said:


> 7. No he doesn’t; not all Admirals are equal and nether are the Yonko


Thats why we will never come to an understanding imo, we share opposed opinions on the key point about this debate.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Lyren said:


> Nekomamushi didnt seem to be that much worried or disappointed when Marco refused.
> 
> Basically what Ezekijunior said. You're bringing a comedic relief example to proof your point which is really poor lol, why dont you talk about consistent bounties with strength like that of Yonko commanders. Queen with 1.2 B bounty was two shoted by haki less Big mom who shares 4B.
> 
> ...


1. This isn’t answering my question; who were the Minks expecting to put in most of the work to take down Kaidou

2. I brought you many examples; beyond Usopp go back and check

3. Of course back up matters; but no matter what Kizaru isn’t going to have more backup then Kaidou with his 20000K Crew so it’s still clear Kizaru and Akainu believe Kizaru can take Kaidou. 

4. What proof do you have that it was plot armor? And Akainu and the other Admirals were handling WB and countering his attacks at the beginning of the War too. 

5. Ether Doflamingo thought Kuzan still wouldn’t move against him; or he underestimated the Admirals; nether helps your point 

6. She doesn’t need to complain about it for it to be true; every other character has weakened with age; and she went from being a fit in the prime of her life character during her Prime with Rocks to being a fat, insane, tub of lard. The burden of proof is on you to show she didn’t weaken period. And she doesn’t have her homies ether.

Prime BM is maybe FA level with her homies; proof that Old Fat BM without many of her homies is FA level. 

It’s such a double standard that you go on an on about how weakened WB was, but totally disregard BM being weakened.


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## Lyren (Mar 5, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. This isn’t answering my question; who were the Minks expecting to put in most of the work to take down Kaidou


The nine scabbards  their plan was dumb and suicidal.


Turrin said:


> . I brought you many examples; beyond Usopp go back and check


I also brought examples of consistent bounties regarding strength of certain people but you just ignored it. 
Hakuba is very fast and very dangerous in battle so yeah he is comparable to Zoro.


Turrin said:


> 3. Of course back up matters; but no matter what Kizaru isn’t going to have more backup then Kaidou with his 20000K Crew so it’s still clear Kizaru and Akainu believe Kizaru can take Kaidou.


Mind you marines have 120k soldiers, Kaido soldiers are nothing compared to that. Also as i said before, Akainu and Kizaru are the cookiest characters on the marine side. The cautious and reasonable one, Sengoku, knew that it is a reckless decision to invade wano.


Turrin said:


> 4. What proof do you have that it was plot armor? And Akainu and the other Admirals were handling WB and countering his attacks at the beginning of the War too.


Didnt Oda say that he intended for Akainu to die and his editor told him that it was too early for him to die and he'd make a great antagonist leading the marines later or something down the line ? 
Wether it was PA or not, it doesnt go to well for him as Whitebeard was literally on his last breath. At the beggining, WB was just messing around, we saw what he is capable of once enraged.


Turrin said:


> . Ether Doflamingo thought Kuzan still wouldn’t move against him; or he underestimated the Admirals; nether helps your point


Doffy witnessed admirals strength in Mf and he didnt fear them at all. Kaido on the other hand...


Turrin said:


> 6. She doesn’t need to complain about it for it to be true; every other character has weakened with age; and she went from being a fit in the prime of her life character during her Prime with Rocks to being a fat, insane, tub of lard. The burden of proof is on you to show she didn’t weaken period. And she doesn’t have her homies ether.
> 
> Prime BM is maybe FA level with her homies; proof that Old Fat BM without many of her homies is FA level.


Every character that was weakened due to old age, they mentioned it themselves or had their surroundings do so. It is not the case with BM. 
BM didnt have hommies when Caramel said she would be fleet admiral level. Hence not even her DF, your argument just shows how much of a beast she is while just in base. 
So we can say that with her DF that makes her that stronger she'd it the 3 admirals for breakfast ? 


Turrin said:


> It’s such a double standard that you go on an on about how weakened WB was, but totally disregard BM being weakened.


Kaido gave her food. She regained her strength before he took on her.


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## Ludi (Mar 5, 2020)

This whole discussion is mega offtopic and I dont think Turrin will ever accept any of your reasons and the other way around, both parties are talking to a wall.

Anyway:

Current Luffy is YFM+-level or slightly above that after his training in some tier of his own between that and Admiral. Marco is portrayed as high YFM. Luffy probably wins vs Marco if he can put more damage than his regen. Post Wano Luffy will mid-high diff Marco I think, depending on his powerups or things he didnt show yet.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2020)

Lyren said:


> The nine scabbards  their plan was dumb and suicidal.
> 
> I also brought examples of consistent bounties regarding strength of certain people but you just ignored it.
> Hakuba is very fast and very dangerous in battle so yeah he is comparable to Zoro.
> ...


1. Okay so you don’t think they would then expect Marco to do most of the work; if the alternative was the scabbers....

2. You bringing examples where bounties make sense strength wise is meaningless; of course some times they will make sense, but many times they don’t, so using them as evidence to say someone is ‘defiantly’ stronger is not accurate 

3. Kizaru clearly was not talking about mobilizing the entire force of marines 

4. What may have been doesn’t matter; what did happen does 

5. And like I said unless you think Doffy is > Admirals he was ether smoking dope or he thought his position would protect him; ether way is irrelevant 

6. BM doesn’t need to mention it; as we are shown her looking slim and fit in her prime and a fat tub of lard in the modern time. Having potentially to be FA would include her potential to gain powers like a DF; in-fact if sold to the marines she may have gotten a better DF

7. She was weakened by Age and Missing Homies; and your pretending she was at her best.


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## Luke (Mar 5, 2020)

Yeah, Luffy has surpassed the First Mates at this point, with the only possible exception being Beckman. He wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lyren (Mar 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. Okay so you don’t think they would then expect Marco to do most of the work; if the alternative was the scabbers....


This is headcanon since they didnt mention such a thing. I can tell you that they excepted him to fight King while the nine of them take on Kaido.


Turrin said:


> 2. You bringing examples where bounties make sense strength wise is meaningless; of course some times they will make sense, but many times they don’t, so using them as evidence to say someone is ‘defiantly’ stronger is not accurate


It is when there is one hell of gap in Bounty especially when the persons in question share the same status. No one argues Croco with Bounty of 89M is stronger than Smoothie with 900M while she is near featless. 


Turrin said:


> Kizaru clearly was not talking about mobilizing the entire force of marines


Clearly wasnt going alone either. He'd bring at least 1/3 of the marine forces and tbh both him and Sakazuki were just overconfident just like how Akainu tought he is a match for WB. 
Fortunately for you, Sengoku stopped your favorite char suicidal attempt 


Turrin said:


> 4. What may have been doesn’t matter; what did happen does


Oda believed Akainu would die to old dying WB and he knows his characters better than we do  


Turrin said:


> . And like I said unless you think Doffy is > Admirals he was ether smoking dope or he thought his position would protect him; ether way is irrelevant


He isnt stronger than admirals but he doesnt view them as threatening as the Idea of angering Kaido while he witnessed both fighters. That says a lot.


Turrin said:


> BM doesn’t need to mention it; as we are shown her looking slim and fit in her prime and a fat tub of lard in the modern time. Having potentially to be FA would include her potential to gain powers like a DF; in-fact if sold to the marines she may have gotten a better DF


You just want her to be weakened over age to further proof your scaling of Kaido PL. You even went as far as saying weight matters when considering power levels lol. 
John Giant was not given a DF. Caramel was clearly referring to Base Big mom monstruous strength that will grant her FA status.


Turrin said:


> She was weakened by Age and Missing Homies; and your pretending she was at her best.


Weakened by age is a bit of stretch and she is FA level while DF less so who cares about the hommies? Kaido probably didnt transform to a dragon either.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 6, 2020)

BM isn't weakened by age
Stop writing nonsense

She's still in prime


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2020)

Lyren said:


> This is headcanon since they didnt mention such a thing. I can tell you that they excepted him to fight King while the nine of them take on Kaido.
> 
> It is when there is one hell of gap in Bounty especially when the persons in question share the same status. No one argues Croco with Bounty of 89M is stronger than Smoothie with 900M while she is near featless.
> 
> ...


1. If the scabbers thought they could beat Kaidou; that only makes Kaidou even weaker then them believing Marco could do it. So sure we can work under that assumption if you want, but that only makes the idea that Marco is >= Kaidou even more plausible

2. No one argues Crocodile is > Smoothie because Smoothie is a YC and Crocodile doesn’t have anywhere near those feats. I would certainly argue Zoro could take DCJ in DR; despite the fact that DCJ had a bounty of 543 Mil; versus Zoro bounty of 120Mil at the time. Luffy wil a 500mil bounty straight up beat Cracker and Katakuri; who had 800+Mil and 1Bill bounties respectively.  It’s also ridiculous to say that Bounty has to do with strength; many pirates have no bounty; while Ussop has 30mil for burning a flag and Robin had 80mi for being able to read the ponegylphes

3. Where was 1/3 of the Marines forces ever discussed? Especially during a time when they had little forces to spare?

4. I don’t doubt that MF WB could have killed Akainu; just like I don’t doubt he could have killed Kaidou even easier

5. It says he’s a moron; or that he relies on his status to keep him safe; which doesn’t mean anything here

6. Again if a characters physique drastically changes form her prime to now; the natural assumption is that she got weaker. And saying BM has the potential to reach FA level, could include her ability to eat a DF later down the road . Your basically saying because on character speculated (who was trying to sell her goods mind you) that BM ‘could’ reach FA level; that BM did reach that level and is still on it as an old woman without access to several of her main powers. I think this is a ridiculous ask on your part; so unless you have evidence she did not decline we will have to agree to disagree here 

7. Proof Kaidou didn’t use his DF.


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## Lyren (Mar 6, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1. If the scabbers thought they could beat Kaidou; that only makes Kaidou even weaker then them believing Marco could do it. So sure we can work under that assumption if you want, but that only makes the idea that Marco is >= Kaidou even more plausible


If the scabbards believe they can take on Kaido it means that they view themselves combined as stronger Marco who wasn't a needed element in the initial plan. 


Turrin said:


> 2. No one argues Crocodile is > Smoothie because Smoothie is a YC and Crocodile doesn’t have anywhere near those feats. I


You don't make sense at all, "Smoothie is a YC and Crocodile doesnt have anywhere near those FEATS" First off, she is nearly featless. Second, its literally my same argument about Kaido being a freacking Yonko and Marco just a yonko underling who have no business being matched to Kaido.


Turrin said:


> . I would certainly argue Zoro could take DCJ in DR; despite the fact that DCJ had a bounty of 543 Mil; versus Zoro bounty of 120Mil at the time.


DCJ is an old man and boutnies never decrease, they juste increase. Prime DCJ is definitely stronger than Zoro given his hype.



Turrin said:


> Luffy wil a 500mil bounty straight up beat Cracker and Katakuri; who had 800+Mil and 1Bill bounties respectively.


The gap if just hundreds of millions between them, this is not the case when we compare BB and BM or Kaido bounties. 


Turrin said:


> It’s also ridiculous to say that Bounty has to do with strength; many pirates have no bounty; while Ussop has 30mil for burning a flag and Robin had 80mi for being able to read the ponegylphes


You bring just special cases, for real Usopp and Robbin, one is a comedic relief character and the other is the only one who can read poneglyphs, its quite obvious that the govt would put a high bounty on Robin head. Blackbeard and Kaido are both monster fighters that threaten the governement only due to their overwhelming force.


Turrin said:


> 3. Where was 1/3 of the Marines forces ever discussed? Especially during a time when they had little forces to spare?


Kizaru and Akainu talked before the Shichibukai abolishement so the marines werent weakened at all when these two were overconfident on themselves lol.


Turrin said:


> 4. I don’t doubt that MF WB could have killed Akainu; just like I don’t doubt he could have killed Kaidou even easier


Kaido who jumped from god knows how much meters sky island and was unscathered after that, Kaido who have skin damagable only by special swords like Oden have lower durability than Akainu and would die easier to his near dying peer ?  The man is immortal and regarded to as creature while akainu is a human come on.


Turrin said:


> 5. It says he’s a moron; or that he relies on his status to keep him safe; which doesn’t mean anything here


His status mean jack shit to Kuzan. Doflamingo is pretty cautious and smart as a pirate, morons are the likes of Kizaru and Akainu because of their overconfidence if anything. It was a clear message from Oda that Doffy didnt fear 2 admiral level characters and even planned to kill one of them while he is frightened when Kaido is mentioned. Admiral level charc even struggled againt RA clown commanders.


Turrin said:


> 6. Again if a characters physique drastically changes form her prime to now; the natural assumption is that she got weaker. And saying BM has the potential to reach FA level, could include her ability to eat a DF later down the road . Your basically saying because on character speculated (who was trying to sell her goods mind you) that BM ‘could’ reach FA level; that BM did reach that level and is still on it as an old woman without access to several of her main powers. I think this is a ridiculous ask on your part; so unless you have evidence she did not decline we will have to agree to disagree here


Big weakening over age is just an assumption as you said, not a canon evidence either. My argument is that everytime one is weakened due to old age, Oda always mentions it. Sengoku was old but it was never said that it was an handicap for him before the TS.
There is no reason for Caramel to rank Big mom level prior to her eating some DF while John Giant whom she sold to the marines didn't eat one. Big Mom just became "slower" to her weight at worst, strength wise her skin is still impenetrable just like how it was when she was 5. Hommies are irrelevant in a yonko battle.



Turrin said:


> 7. Proof Kaidou didn’t use his DF.


When it was shown that Big Mom and Kaido are fightning each other, his dragon form was not seen while it is rather huge since it covered the whole city when he fought Luffy so i'm assuming he didnt transform.


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## Turrin (Mar 6, 2020)

Lyren said:


> If the scabbards believe they can take on Kaido it means that they view themselves combined as stronger Marco who wasn't a needed element in the initial plan.
> 
> You don't make sense at all, "Smoothie is a YC and Crocodile doesnt have anywhere near those FEATS" First off, she is nearly featless. Second, its literally my same argument about Kaido being a freacking Yonko and Marco just a yonko underling who have no business being matched to Kaido.
> 
> ...


1. I don’t care if they view themselves as stronger then Marco; if Kaidou is weaker then the combined might of the scabbers then he is close to Marco level at best, pick your poison 

2. Marco isn’t just a YC underling he is WB underling which is the difference

3. Cool when was 1/3 of the Marines discussed

4. Akainu actually managed to block WB hits and take off half his face Kaidou hasn’t shown the ability to fight at that level; it’s that simple 

5. Why didn’t Kuzan kill doffy then?

6. And as I said unless you have evidence BM didn’t weaken going form her 28/48 year old self other then it not being mentioned, which I don’t think it has to be your not convincing me of shit

And mother Carmel wasn’t ranking BM powe; she was ranking her potential; and part of her potential would include that she could eat a DF. I’m done discussing this 


7. Okay so again prove to me he didn’t use it during the day of him fight or leave me alone


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## Dragon D Xebec (Mar 14, 2020)

Marco should win. I don't think current Luffy can defeat admiral. After Wano it might be extreme diffs for Luffy


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## Luis209 (Mar 18, 2020)

Current Luffy beats him. Luffy surpassed Marco the moment he defeated Katakuri and current Luffy is substantially stronger. One Piece is close to it's ending so we can't underestimate Luffy anymore. Post-Wano Luffy it's overkill.


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## Canute87 (Mar 18, 2020)

While i do believe luffy beating katakuri was complete bullocks (lol I'm sounding british)


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## Zoro20 (Mar 19, 2020)

Luis209 said:


> Current Luffy beats him. Luffy surpassed Marco the moment he defeated Katakuri and current Luffy is substantially stronger. One Piece is close to it's ending so we can't underestimate Luffy anymore. Post-Wano Luffy it's overkill.


this


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## Muah (Mar 19, 2020)

It's not  a definite win for Luffy. He may be ready to confront a Yonkou and he might have beat a first commander but Marco is Marco.

Luffy  had to survive Katakuris COO for 13 hours but Marco's damage out put is crazy. Luffys strongest attack might outshine Marco's but Marcos casual kick sent Admirals flying and depending how we interpret his attack on kizaru he hit that muthafucka so hard he either explode or turned his ass into light crashing into marineford as nothing but an element.

But we all know how well Marco does against Yonkou candidates so I edge Luffy the victory.


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## Rp4lyf (Mar 19, 2020)

Muah said:


> It's not  a definite win for Luffy. He may be ready to confront a Yonkou and he might have beat a first commander but Marco is Marco.
> 
> Luffy  had to survive Katakuris COO for 13 hours but Marco's damage out put is crazy. Luffys strongest attack might outshine Marco's but Marcos casual kick sent Admirals flying and depending how we interpret his attack on kizaru he hit that muthafucka so hard he either explode or turned his ass into light crashing into marineford as nothing but an element.
> 
> But we all know how well Marco does against Yonkou candidates so I edge Luffy the victory.


Luffy will one shot Marco using King Kong Gun in chapter 955. Garp obe shot marco and left damage on marco usung advanced coa level 2 which Luffy has. Luffy also has future sight.


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## CaptainCommanderRenji (Mar 20, 2020)

Marco is a tough opponent for everyone who isn't significantly stronger than him. I believe start of Wano Luffy is stronger than Marco, but loses. Current Luffy wins.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 20, 2020)

Muah said:


> It's not  a definite win for Luffy. He may be ready to confront a Yonkou and he might have beat a first commander but Marco is Marco.
> 
> Luffy  had to survive Katakuris COO for 13 hours but Marco's damage out put is crazy. Luffys strongest attack might outshine Marco's but Marcos casual kick sent Admirals flying and depending how we interpret his attack on kizaru he hit that muthafucka so hard he either explode or turned his ass into light crashing into marineford as nothing but an element.
> 
> But we all know how well Marco does against Yonkou candidates so I edge Luffy the victory.


Jozu>Marco in AP.
Marco has failed to bruise or make any admiral bleed while Jozu did

The same Jozu whose power is below g4

'Marco output " lol 

Pre ts Luffy sent Kuzan flying too
Apoo blew Kizaru too

I guess they are above g4 

Marco has nothing to counter FS and adCoA + g4 speed and power

Luffy mid diff.


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## Red Admiral (Mar 20, 2020)

Marco lack of attack power and massive amount of defensive power ...

should make him overall equal to Vista and Jozu ... 

sure he would have the edge by now I changed my mind

Luffy would win extreme hard


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## xmysticgohanx (Mar 20, 2020)

Luffy extreme or high diff

Luffy > Marco > Vista > Katakuri


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## InfinityG (Apr 26, 2020)

Figured this would be a better match up.

Location: Wano

Who wins?


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## CaptainCommander (Apr 26, 2020)

@itsxtray you've never been in a fight? an attack to the face VS a buffered attack to the midsection =/=. .  . .


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## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

lastkiller said:


> I’m new....and i came here for Turrin .....his theories are just too much


He steaks only facts 


Turrin said:


> Why is is a reach Admirals we’re competing with WSM whose > Kaidou


LOL Admirals were competing where?
You mean all 4 vs 1.
There only 1 and you know how that went.

Kaido>Akainu>Rest!

WHY THE FUCK ARE YOU GUYS  TALKING ABOUT KAIDO.

KAIDO vs after Wano Luffy still wins with high diff.


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## Gomu (Apr 27, 2020)

I came back to visit, what is this shit I'm seeing. Do you guys actually think that Luffy is superior to Marco?

Holy fucking shit.

Luffy had a full battle with Katakuri in which Katakuri was beating Luffy's ass for the most part. Luffy won through the psychology of his extreme willpower more so than his physical ability, if you take that out the scenario, Luffy would have lost several times over.

The Admirals are on par with the Yonkou, nothing has been shown that makes them weaker and they are three of the World Government's strongest assets. Just as you don't see wars being brought to the Yonkou on a daily basis, you do not see wars being brought to the World Government unless the World Government pushed their buttons. Marco was fighting the Admirals to a standstill before the cuffs got on him and were having NO issue with doing so PTS.

Katakuri's feats are more pronounced than Marco's own feats and that's why you can state that "Katakuri is superior".

Do you actually think that Katakuri could fight the Admirals? One Admiral, and win against them? No. Because everything we've seen is that these guys can hit just as hard as the Yonkou. One of the reasons WB died was because Akainu took half his face off, do you think WB was going to outright survive such a blow, and before you state: "Well that's because of his devil fruit", understand that WB's DF was more powerful, and he took the full brunt of said fruit and was fine to fight again, literally the quake punch split Marineford in half.

Marco is fighting Admirals and contending with them. He gave the same experience to Kizaru that Kizaru gave to him which is a standard of equality or something showing such a standard. I don't know if people are high right now in underestimating the strength of characters like Rayleigh, Marco, and overestimating Luffy, but Luffy is just on the cusp of being able to fight against these guys. There is no proof that he can even hurt Kaido yet, it's stated that there's potential, but at the same time, Oden was stronger due to his travels with WB and Roger and Kaido was weaker 20 years before.

Until there's actual proof of Luffy actually BEATING or stalemating ANY Yonkou, there's no proof that he can beat characters like Marco who should be on the same level as Oden.


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## Mylesime (Apr 27, 2020)

It's Strange, because i do think that luffy is being overestimated and underestimated at the same time due to the plot.

1) Oda built up Kaido's hype to the max, in order to raise the stakes of the coming war.
The gap between luffy and kaido wasn't as big as it appeared in their first clash. Kaido is a physical beast, a barbarian, a very bad match up for luffy who fought like a madman, like a possessed man. Luffy went head on, in a pure physical clash, because he thought that kaido just hurt his friends.
When Katakuri lost his cool, he was pummeled by a Gear 4 boundman. Luffy could not hurt kaido, but he could have been far more difficult to catch.
We've seen in Oden's flashback, what happens when Kaido land a clean hit on somebody, no matter his strength, the opponent feels the blow.

2) Luffy had no business beating katakuri on WCI, the fight became a battle of will and attrition, only areas where luffy surpassed the FM. Katakuri allowed the fight to get out of control.
Katakuri's abilities to keep up with luffy despite his improved COO and his use of gear 4 snakeman, shows that it wasn't only a battle of skills. Luffy got katakuri's support and approval, and in the end he showed what Mihawk was talking about at Marineford, his ability to rally people to its cause. Let's be real it's impossible to explain luffy's Survival for 13 hours by his skills. I'm sure we all had the same reaction seeing katakuri evade luffy's black mamba attack: "how the fuck can this guy do that while failing to put him down for the past ten hours?"
It was a trial, and luffy passed it.

Last point, there is a great chance Katakuri was the "weakest" FM, i love the character and his backstory with brulée, but katakuri was basically a "fraud" due to circumstances, the guy couldn't be himself. It's very different from what we can see of the others FM, shiryu was incarcerated because he used to slaughter inmates (no fucks given), beckman seems like an old sage, and Marco inherited WB's will and was described as Teach competition for the title of yonkou. Katakuri seems to suffer from Big Mom leadership…. he basically asked luffy to help him put her down (while we know he care about his siblings).

  Luffy is going to punch kaido in the face and put him down, and while undenibale, his PU isn't that extreme compared to his previous level. The good thing is that Oda can't tease us anymore, no mystery, no BS, it's an all out war with a bunch of high and top tiers.
Everything will be settled soon. For me currently, it would be an extreme diff fight either way. I voted Marco, because i thought people were underestimating him, he was very impressive at Marineford.
Whether you rank him as a high high tier or a low top tier, pure semantic, the guy is a beast.


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## Etherborn (Apr 27, 2020)

If you asked me at the beginning of Wano I'd lean towards Marco. By now I think Luffy should win though. Not sure with how much difficulty.


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## Gomu (Apr 27, 2020)

Etherborn said:


> If you asked me at the beginning of Wano I'd lean towards Marco. By now I think Luffy should win though. Not sure with how much difficulty.


But from what instance? How do we know that Marco does not have Ryuo? We saw the Admirals perform the feat, it's not just centered on top tier characters but the fact that it can be learned and has been shown from the clash of WB and Roger (which I assume is also Ryuo) how do we not know that characters like Marco didn't learn considering they were with the masters of all Haki abilities. There's also no conclusive evidence that states that Ryuo is so useful that it improves all of Luffy's attributes either, Marco should be superior to Katakuri if he's getting tagged by Luffy. Haki can only do so much if you don't have the physicality. The Admirals were capable of fighting against WB, still considered this strongest in his sickness. Guess who was fighting the Admirals, Luffy can't say he can do that. Fujitora was just toying with him, SABO is superior to Luffy, even now unless there's information backing that up. Landing a blow against an Admiral is a feat in itself and something Luffy hasn't done even against a playing Fujitora. The only thing Luffy has truly learned is a better control over his haki and fruit abilities moreso than physical upgrades, though he probably has those too, Katakuri is still superior to him, and that's the problem.

People should not mistake "more feats" as being a superior category against a character who was even stated capable of fighting Blackbeard. Luffy's not even capable of that POST timeskip where we are now. I guarantee you, not until he can clash equally with Yonkou and Admirals, as they are literally the two biggest hurdles he needs to overcome, including Akainu. Oda even stated that the potential of Akainu is so high that he'd have finished the story much quicker than Luffy has, maybe even Gol Roger if he had all the tools prepared beforehand. That means he'd have defeated the Yonkou and the Marines in a single year.

*changed some stuff because I mistyped, lol


----------



## Rp4lyf (Apr 27, 2020)

Gomu said:


> But from what instance? How do we know that Marco does not have Ryuo? We saw the Admirals perform the feat, it's not just centered on top tier characters but the fact that it can be learned and has been shown from the clash of WB and Roger (which I assume is also Ryuo) how do we not know that characters like Marco didn't learn considering they were with the masters of all Haki abilities. There's also no conclusive evidence that states that Ryuo is so useful that it improves all of Luffy's attributes either, Marco should be superior to Katakuri if he's getting tagged by Luffy. Haki can only do so much if you don't have the physicality. The Admirals were capable of fighting against WB, still considered this strongest in his sickness. Guess who was fighting the Admirals, Luffy can't say he can do that. Fujitora was just toying with him, SABO is superior to Luffy, even now unless there's information backing that up. Landing a blow against an Admiral is a feat in itself and something Luffy hasn't done even against a playing Fujitora. The only thing Luffy has truly learned is a better control over his haki and fruit abilities moreso than physical upgrades, though he probably has those too, Katakuri is still superior to him, and that's the problem.
> 
> People should not mistake "more feats" as being a superior category against a character who was even stated capable of fighting Blackbeard. Luffy's not even capable of that POST timeskip where we are now. I guarantee you, not until he can clash equally with Yonkou and Admirals, as they are literally the two biggest hurdles he needs to overcome, including Akainu. Oda even stated that the potential of Akainu is so high that he'd have finished the story much quicker than Luffy has, maybe even Gol Roger if he had all the tools prepared beforehand. That means he'd have defeated the Yonkou and the Marines in a single year.
> 
> *changed some stuff because I mistyped, lol


Dressrossa Gear 3 Luffy bruised Fujitora, an admiral.

Keep in mind this is before Whole Cake Island. If he was bruising fujitora with G3, what would Dressrossa Gear 4 have done to Fujitora.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 27, 2020)

Rp4lyf said:


> Dressrossa Gear 3 Luffy bruised Fujitora, an admiral.
> 
> Keep in mind this is before Whole Cake Island. If he was bruising fujitora with G3, what would Dressrossa Gear 4 have done to Fujitora.


How about you go through these panels and show me where he bruised him? - link removed


----------



## Ren. (Apr 27, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I came back to visit, what is this shit I'm seeing. Do you guys actually think that Luffy is superior to Marco?
> 
> Holy fucking shit.
> 
> ...


LOL dude Luffy will defeat Kaido not clash with Kizaru with a regeneration fruit.

Luffy has the AP, COA, and FS to take Marco on.
What exactly has Marco to put Luffy down?

The Kick that stoped kizaru or do you think that now Kizaru goes to Luffy and does the same as he did in Shabondy?


----------



## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

Are people still claiming Luffy hurt Fuji?


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Are people still claiming Luffy hurt Fuji?


Never said that just that he has a scratch wound, he is not Kaido.

A KKG will hurt him.
a KKG with FS and Advance COA will hurt him even more.

And after Wano I see Fuji winning but with extreme diff.

Kaido still wins with the highest mid diff- lowest high diff.

He is getting close to defeating Fuji after he defeats Kaido with a lot of help.

Fuji vs Zoro and Luffy after Kaido get high-mid diffed.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> The right side of his face has a mark after colliding with G3.


No discomfort shown, nor any care. He deflected the strike. He didn't bleed, he didn't even say anything, and then goes on to easily deflect Luffy's attacks still. If this is your idea of a "bruise" I hate to see what it means when Luffy actually hurts an Admiral, you might actually think Luffy has an advantage just because he can inflict some pain when he's getting his ass kicked, bloodied and beaten. Fujitora didn't even take Luffy's entire thing seriously, he was actually repulsed that Luffy was calling out to him his attacks and treating him like he was crippled. Don't give Luffy more props than he deserves. He didn't hurt Fujitora. You know what this actually reminds me of?


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> No discomfort shown, nor any care. He deflected the strike. He didn't bleed, he didn't even say anything, and then goes on to easily deflect Luffy's attacks still. If this is your idea of a "bruise" I hate to see what it means when Luffy actually hurts an Admiral, you might actually think Luffy has an advantage just because he can inflict some pain when he's getting his ass kicked, bloodied and beaten. Fujitora didn't even take Luffy's entire thing seriously, he was actually repulsed that Luffy was calling out to him his attacks and treating him like he was crippled. Don't give Luffy more props than he deserves. He didn't hurt Fujitora. You know what this actually reminds me of?


He only had  a small scratch nothing more.

Luffy was a scrub there, shit G4 performance, Crap COO and COA.

Don't go on a tangent Luffy even with G4 would get low diffed by Fujitora.

After wano he still gets extreme diffed.

That doesn't mean Fuji was a god.

If you want to see one that did god-tier durability feats see Kaido tanking Kong Organ with his body, no black COA no nothing an no Sword to block it.


----------



## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Never said that just that he has a scratch wound, he is not Kaido.
> 
> A KKG will hurt him.
> a KKG with FS and Advance COA will hurt him even more.
> ...


Fuji isn’t a logia not has super hard skin, but he can block and parry attacks with just his gravity, don’t take Fuji’s kindness for weakness, If luffy could ‘hurt’ Fuji, he would have stomped DD a lot faster and with just g2/ 3, but that is not the case... this ‘mark’ is never seen again on Fuji’s face iirc.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Never said that just that he has a scratch wound, he is not Kaido.
> 
> A KKG will hurt him.
> a KKG with FS and Advance COA will hurt him even more.
> ...


Kaido is not "more special" than an Admiral. Can we please stop saying this? There is nothing in One Piece to suggest that Admirals are inferior to Yonkou, people made that their own headcanon for the silliest of reasons, because the literal STRONGEST PIRATE in the series at the time came and fucked them up. Meanwhile Big Mom admits she needs help beating Whitebeard (even while he was sick), Whitebeard is considered the Strongest in the World (Even out of his prime) and the Admirals were still a tier below him for obvious reasons of his fighting skills and his fruit powers.

Show me proof that Admirals are weaker than Yonkou.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Show me proof that Admirals are weaker than Yonkou.


Aaaa Wb was one, Kaido is one, BB is one.

Is Fuji special vs any of these?

Well heck no and fuck of vs the A vs Y thing, I don't care.


----------



## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Do you guys cut me some slack?
> 
> I never said anything about YvsA because I don't reallu care.
> 
> ...


I don’t think age nor strength had anything to do with it. 

Two different scenarios and it just isn’t fair to compare the two.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> He only had  a small scratch nothing more.
> 
> Luffy was a scrub there, shit G4 performance, Crap COO and COA.
> 
> ...


Kaido's not god either, but you guys seem to love wanking the hell out of him. Marco may not be god, but he gave all three Admirals a run for their money while either protecting Luffy or fighting them one on one. He did not steer away from them and they took him seriously. Blocking an attack from Kizaru is not just some "lol, I'm low top tier". Fighting a character with two devil fruits who could already scar a man who was already capable of fighting in duels with the supposed "World's Strongest Swordsman" and saying it wasn't just a fluke and he didn't have DF's to back him up, isn't some scrub, either. Marco is stronger than Luffy until otherwise shown or stated, Luffy would not have been able to do what Marco did, right now.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> Fuji isn’t a logia not has super hard skin, but he can block and parry attacks with just his gravity


Yeah then imagine a KKG with Advance COA non blocked the same treatement that Kaido will get and please tell me that Fuji will just block more than Kaido ... LOL!



MasterBeast said:


> I don’t think age nor strength had anything to do with it.
> 
> Two different scenarios and it just isn’t fair to compare the two.


I was comparing Durability and sure did not compare anything else.
And when fuji just got his DF and position for sure he is not as good at been Admiral or using his DF as let's say Aokiji.

So yeah.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Aaaa Wb was one, Kaido is one, BB is one.
> 
> Is Fuji special vs any of these?
> 
> Well heck no and fuck of vs the A vs Y thing, I don't care.


No... Kizaru states he would literally go to Wano and break up the situation with Big Mom and Kaido with no fear. Akainu causes the most damage to WB during the fight by taking a supposedly, extremely durable man's head off, the same man who Big Mom needed Giants to fight with in order to be a great enough super power. Blackbeard has the World's most dangerous devil fruit that can potentially destroy the world. Kaido is SUPPOSEDLY the World's Strongest Creature as I found out today.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate Marco was stoped by one fricking punch for Garp.
> Marco did no damage to no Admirals.
> 
> Kaido one shot Luffy with blunt damage, no one done that and no one will ever do it again.
> ...


Garp is one of the most powerful character in the series, right now, still. Why do we discount characters who have greater age when Big Mom is almost 70 years old and kaido is around her age...

Marco kicks Kizaru, Aokiji and protected Luffy from Akainu. It took being hit in two lethal spots for Marco to be stalled and he was ready to fight again for the Akainu battle.

Marco is the First Mate of a fucking Yonkou, the amount of disrespect is fucking unreal. He lost to Blackbeard so he's weak? My dude. Get your priorities straight.



Ren. said:


> And?
> 
> Do you believe that Kizaru vs BMP and Beast Pirates will not be a neg diff for him?
> 
> ...


If Kizaru is on par with Yonkou as the series suggests, they'll be a minor inconvenience for him, nothing short of Kaido or Big Mom will slow him down.

You seem to be using headcanon, I'm just using facts, you still have not shown any evidence of a Yonkou being superior to an Admiral bar WB despite WB being considered the strongest character by every other friend in the verse.

So you're saying that the strongest blow we've ever seen in the series should be discounted. Remember that Akainu took a blow completely to his face, off-guard and fell down a fissure, came back out only bleeding and still ready to fight from the strongest Quake Punch ever seen in the series thus far.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

I am wasting my time when someone believes that one top tier from the Marines will stop 2 Yonko and 6 YC.

Or that Marco has the feats to defeat someone that currently has the feats and portrait to wound badly Kaido but hey Marco was an FM.


Gomu said:


> If Kizaru is on par with Yonkou as the series suggests, they'll be a minor inconvenience for him, nothing short of Kaido or Big Mom will slow him down.





Gomu said:


> So you're saying that the strongest blow we've ever seen in the series should be discounted. Remember that Akainu took a blow completely to his face, off-guard and fell down a fissure, came back out only bleeding and still ready to fight from the strongest Quake Punch ever seen in the series thus far.


Dude, you are comparing the strongest Marine getting hit by WB when he was having a problem with COA vs a G4 Luffy that is usually immune to blunt damage and had already COA with G4 getting KO instantly by a casual move with no visible COA reinforcement and this is the MC that Blocked Sengoku's punch in MF with his fusen.

Oda paint it clearly which was unprecedented.

And I am saying that Luffy will defeat that but hey clashing with Kizaru makes you above Luffy so I get it.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Luffy defeated a fucking first mate of a Yonkou  ...
> 
> Luffy will defeat Kaido this arc but hey I am disrespecting Marco after he lost to BB that he will lose to the one that will defeat BB.
> Dude who are you arguing with?
> ...


So you think that Luffy "beat" the guy who fell down because he conceded to Luffy's will to be king and then was stated to be faking it panels later... Wow, that's called "Winning the Battle but Losing the War" my guy, it's psychological in nature that Luffy won, 

Luffy probably isn't defeating Kaido this arc, not on his own. He could barely fight Katakuri who is outclassed by the Yonkou as seen when Queen could barely phase Big Mom in Wano yet easily dealt with Luffy by throwing his ass away like a goddamn ragdoll. You guys miss these little clues it seems. 



Because all the facts that Luffy can't beat the right hands of the Yonkou, that's a fucking no-brainer. When he can easily beat them and start clashing with the Yonkou, then there you go. Right now they have an ARMY fighting the Yonkou, Luffy isn't going to fight Kaido himself and win, he cannot. After this arc, maybe because he will most likely unlock his awakening ability, but even that is headcanon.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Luffy probably isn't defeating Kaido this arc


Wanna bet your account?


Gomu said:


> , not on his own.


No one said that he will do it solo!

But you know what that is more than Marco will ever do in his all life.


Gomu said:


> He could barely fight Katakuri who is outclassed by the Yonkou


And defeated him a FM with just using FS and his  AP> Fuji and Marco.
Now he has FS and Advance COA but hey Marco still wins.


Gomu said:


> Because all the facts that Luffy can't beat the right hands of the Yonkou, that's a fucking no-brainer.


Dude tell what FM will every defeat Kaido.
I will give him the same support that Luffy will have?

You are delusional if you think Luffy after Wano will be the same level as any FM!

Now I spent  to much time on you!

Bye.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Wanna bet your account?
> 
> No one said that he will do it solo!
> 
> But you know what that is more than Marco will ever do in his all life.


Closer than Luffy is to doing it right now. I'm not into stupid ass bets, buddy. You need to learn some common sense before I make a wager with you, saying that Luffy actually won against Katakuri by beating him instead of willing his way to victory makes you either a Luffytard or a headcase, we're either reading two different stories or you don't see that Luffy has a long fucking away to go before he's touching the power that is Admiral or Yonkou. Hopefully within the next 5 years Oda can show some growth on that level.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Closer than Luffy is to doing it right now. I'm not into stupid ass bets, buddy. You need to learn some common sense before I make a wager with you, saying that Luffy actually won against Katakuri by beating him instead of willing his way to victory makes you either a Luffytard or a headcase, we're either reading two different stories or you don't see that Luffy has a long fucking away to go before he's touching the power that is Admiral or Yonkou. Hopefully within the next 5 years Oda can show some growth on that level.


LOL, if you are that sure then bet your account!

You think that Luffy after Wano is still crap!

How I am a luffy tard when I said even Fuji can defeat him after Wano?

But hey After defeating Kaido he still has 5 years to what?

LOL, cracks me up at reading two-piece.

After defeating Kaido what do yo think he will fight Marco solo 

Dude how is Marco closer to defeating Kaido than Luffy?

Tell me how many high tier has Marco defeated?
How many Yonko has he clashed with?
How many advance haki forms has he?

But hey Luffy didn't defeat Kata and he is not stronger now and he will not defeat Kaido, Marco will.

ok, bye.


----------



## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

dunno about yall. Hope you won't call the cops but I would love to try what Turrin's smoking. I've asked for the recipe but he wouldn't share. Just think about the intensity of the hallucinogen to not only say the deadman at MF Wb is stronger than Kaido, but to also believe his lackey is. He is either on something, or he reads the manga upside-down, sorry to say that.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LOL, if you are that sure then bet your account!
> 
> You think that Luffy after Wano is still crap!
> 
> ...


 

Here's your top tier candidate here, if you think two days of training changes this, you're out of your fucking mind.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Here's your top tier candidate here, if you think two days of training changes this, you're out of your fucking mind.


Again Buddy you beleive that Luffy is still crap after defeating kaido that is like 1week in the manga and at max 2 years in our time.

And I am a Luffy tard.

Good day.

Wasted to much time with you!


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> dunno about yall. Hope you won't call the cops but I would love to try what Turrin's smoking. I've asked for the recipe but he wouldn't share. Just think about the intensity of the hallucinogen to not only say the deadman at MF Wb is stronger than Kaido, but to also believe his lackey is. He is either on something, or he reads the manga upside-down, sorry to say that.


You're talking about him like this, but... can you show any feats that have Kaido do anything on WB's radar, right now?



Ren. said:


> Again Buddy you beleive that Luffy is still crap after defeating kaido that is like 1week in the manga and at max 2 years in our time.
> 
> And I am a Luffy tard.
> 
> ...


Yep. I'll take that as a concession because you couldn't find anything.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You're talking about him like this, but... can you show any feats that have Kaido do anything on WB's radar, right now?


So now Kaido is weak.
Also, be aware I am WB fan.
Prime WB destroys Kaido but so what!

Also a Marco one.

But hey I am a Luffy tard for you.

Good day gent.


Gomu said:


> Yep. I'll take that as a concession because you couldn't find anything.


Sorry you are not to be taken serious at all.
Good day!


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> So now Kaido is weak.
> Also, be aware I am WB fan.
> Also a Marco one.
> 
> ...


I didn't say Kaido was weak. Weak arguments coming from a person who can't prove anything but say "lol, Marco is inferior to Luffy". When, A. Marco fought and stalemated Admirals and B. Luffy gets thrown around like a ragdoll yet you think because you believe Luffy will be stronger as soon as the Wano Arc is over, we should take your word. Nothing shows that. Until Luffy can walk on his own two feet and not need help, he's not Yonkou material, and Marco is closer to Oden then Luffy is right now. Good day.

You're also that can add "Tier Specialist" to my posts, yet can't show evidence. Maybe learn how to show evidence instead of saying "my headcanon will win"? Iunno.


----------



## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You're talking about him like this, but... can you show any feats that have Kaido do anything on WB's radar, right now?


WB was a relic at MF just like many characters have stated it. Kaido literally ran after him to beat the shit out of him because he knew wb was far from his best at that point of his life. Kaido is eating FMs for breakfast, something nobody did in the manga. not to mention the numerous times his ass has been licked by Oda and his characters.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I didn't say Kaido was weak. Weak arguments coming from a person who can't prove anything but say "lol, Marco is inferior to Luffy". When, A. Marco fought and stalemated Admirals and B. Luffy gets thrown around like a ragdoll yet you think because you believe Luffy will be stronger as soon as the Wano Arc is over, we should take your word. Nothing shows that. Until Luffy can walk on his own two feet and not need help, he's not Yonkou material, and Marco is closer to Oden then Luffy is right now. Good day.


You are countering me with Marco classed with Admirals?
I countered that with well 3 high tier defeated on was on the same level as Marco, with G4 AP and 2 advance forms.

Luffy will defeat Kaido.

And you want me to prove what?

Did you read the manga at all?

How is Marco going to have better feats than what Luffy has and will have in a week?


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> WB was a relic at MF just like many characters have stated it. Kaido literally ran after him to beat the shit out of him because he knew wb was far from his best at that point of his life. Kaido is eating FMs for breakfast, something nobody did in the manga. not to mention the numerous times his ass has been licked by Oda and his characters.


Except, he still had the power to destroy the world. He still had one of the strongest DFs in the world. Blackbeard is at his power right now because he's built his own forces and got the Gura Gura, or is that a non-factor as well?


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> You are countaring me with Marco classed with Admirals?
> I counter that with well 3 high tier defeated on was on the same level as Marco, with G4 AP and 2 advance forms.
> 
> Luffy will defeat Kaido.
> ...


I don't understand a fucking word you're saying. 

He will defeat Kaido, it's the point of the fucking story. But what you're saying is Luffy, as he is now (not your fucking headcanon) is superior to a character who can easily fight Admirals who = Yonkou, and you're full of shit.

I read it better than you, I know when Luffy wins a psychological victory and not through a demonstration of power better than you do, buddy. Maybe you should take your own advice and 

"Did you read the manga?" yourself.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Except, he still had the power to destroy the world. He still had one of the strongest DFs in the world. Blackbeard is at his power right now because he's built his own forces and got the Gura Gura, or is that a non-factor as well?


Mate do a search in my comment see those about WB.

And even I can't say that WB can defeat Kaido because he is a tank.

Kaido will outlast WB and MF.

Prime Wb does him the highest form of Mid diff.

So yeah.

I am done bye.


----------



## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> *Except, he still had the power to destroy the world*. He still had one of the strongest DFs in the world. Blackbeard is at his power right now because he's built his own forces and got the Gura Gura, or is that a non-factor as well?


yes, words thrown by someone who at that moment had no idea about WB's form. 
BB has nothing to do with mf WB. He just stole the fruit of an old man, which happened to be the best fruit in terms of AOE.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Mate do a search in my comment see those about WB.
> 
> And even I can't say that WB can defeat Kaido because he is a tank.
> 
> ...


If he couldn't outlast a double sword slash from Oden without getting help, I doubt he'll outlast a quake punch to the face and through his Naginata very well. 

Kaido's a tank, OK. So is Big Mom, so was WB, and what did Akainu do? Took off half his fucking face.

You need to show feats of that, buddy because when WB was still alive, no one wanted to bring the smoke to him. He went because they took something precious of his and everyone was dreading that fucking day. It was the entire point of making Ace's execution a World Event.

Still don't understand what the fuck you're saying, if you're going to be suave, at least be suave with the language you're using, that suave shit doesn't work if you don't have a foundational argument to stand on.

So... OK.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> yes, words thrown by someone who at that moment had no idea about WB's form.
> BB has nothing to do with mf WB. He just stole the fruit of an old man, which happened to be the best fruit in terms of AOE.


Except Blackbeard read up on DFs and was within WB's crew since he was a literal child, or did you not see the Oden fucking flashbacks which are kinda important to the story. If he was "so feeble" why did Teech wait until he was at his weakest and dying to take his fruit, if he was such a fucking badass, why not do like he did with Ace and just take that shit.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

@Soca and @Kinjin can you checked if I derailed the thread.
I had a headache with debating this user.

I even am trying to not type that much but...

Sorry for the disturbance, I will be more careful.

It is a first been called a Luffy tard for like saying well he defeats Kaido he already had a new upgrade, he has the COA to wound Marco but neah in 5 years he might do something.

I am out.


----------



## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Except Blackbeard read up on DFs and was within WB's crew since he was a literal child, or did you not see the Oden fucking flashbacks which are kinda important to the story.* If he was "so feeble" why did Teech wait until he was at his weakest and dying* to take his fruit, if he was such a fucking badass, why not do like he did with Ace and just take that shit.


in 17 words you've both asked a question and answered to it. Also yami Teach is weaker than Sick old WB, very much weaker.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> @Soca and @Kinjin can you checked if I derailed the thread.
> I had a headache with debating this user.
> 
> I even trying to not type that much but...
> ...


Yes, you have a headache due to not knowing what you're talking about. The only thing you've been right about, Luffy will beat Kaido in the future. The rest is headcanon of what Luffy has right now, a big no-no when debating characters' abilities.


----------



## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> in 17 words you've both asked a question and answered to it. Also yami Teach is weaker than Sick old WB, very much weaker.


I know I did. Because I know what I'm talking about. Now, please. Show me something that Kaido has done that outmatches Whitebeard 1v1.


----------



## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Yes, you have a headache due to not knowing what you're talking about. The only thing you've been right about, Luffy will beat Kaido in the future. The rest is headcanon of what Luffy has right now, a big no-no when debating characters' abilities.


Dude you are saying that I am wrong because Marco classed with Admirals.

Also, I would have given Luffy the extreme diff similar to Kata but hey, Luffy tard.

Let's check stats:
COA: Luffy
COO: Luffy
COC: Luff
Speed: top tier Snake man Luffy

AP:  KKG+ Advance COA Luffy
Defense: Marco regen but Luffy has tankman and barrier COA still Marco.

Portrait: Luffy: Defeats Kaido in this arc.

Feats Luffy defeats 3 high tiers, one FM, clashes with BM in WCI in Wano, and with Kaido in Wano.

Coclusion for you Marco.

Bye.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I know I did. Because I know what I'm talking about. Now, please. Show me something that Kaido has done that outmatches Whitebeard 1v1.


Not getting stabbed by a fodder and spit blood ?
Not having frequent heart and diarrhea attacks.
One shoting a FM level character, something nobody has done in the manga ?
Plus the manny ways people talk about him ?

What I do give to that WB is temporarily incapacitating Akainu, yet we do know based on Oda's own words that Kaido is stronger than Akainu. I mean the man said it. I won't debate on something canon.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Not getting stabbed by a fodder and spit blood ?
> Not having frequent heart and diarrhea attacks.
> One shoting a FM level character, something nobody has done in the manga ?
> Plus the manny ways people talk about him ?
> ...


Shit, I am not even liking this.

WB gets defeated by kaido in his MF form.
Remove his sickness and just old Old extreme diffs Kaido, the OP is that old man.

But I expect an extreme diff fight because of how important is WB to the OP world.
Prime WB neah he smokes Akainu or Kaido for breakest.

Also for the gent Oden high diffs Marco any day of the weak, he was the top tier of the WB pirates as Ray was from the Roger pirates.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Dude you are saying that I am wrong because Marco classed with Admirals.
> 
> Also, I would have given Luffy the extreme diff similar to Kata but hey, Luffy tard.
> 
> ...


COA: Marco - he was fighting against all three Admirals, Luffy has shown no feats of this and struggles against Yonkou Commanders.
COO: Marco - Luffy just learned to use his future sight abilities and hasn't even mastered them completely. as a matter of fact, Luffy's lack of using his observation during key moments is why the plot progresses at times. Gazelleman, anyone?
COC: Luffy - We don't even know if Marco has COC, I don't even know why this is a thing considering it's a non-factor as Marco was completely unaffected by Shanks khaki who was trying to exude as much of it on Moby Dick as possible, so Luffy's COC probably won't even affect Marco, but alright.

AP: Marco - He can hurt Admirals. He can fight against Admirals for prolonged periods of time.
Defense: Marco - Again, he can fight Admirals, fought Blackbeard's crew. He can also protect his captain against a full assault from Kizaru who was using his light powers to try and hit Whitebeard and took that shit to the face.

Portrait: Luffy will beat Kaido on his own... in the future, right now he needs an army of like-minded people to even step to Kaido's door due to being curbstomped by Kaido and needing at least two weeks of training and 2 days of Ryuo training.

Feats: Marco fights 3 top tiers (Admirals) with no problems. Has no problem trying to fight Blackbeard but gets curbstomped due to the power Blackbeard amassed within the 2 year skip. Is the 1st Commander of the crew despite having monsters like Jozu who has shown one of the largest physical strength feats in the series and Vista who can contend with the Strongest Swordsman in the world and it be an "interesting fight" for him. Marco capable of kicking and knocking away Admirals is a better feat than anything Luffy has shown thus far. Kaido let him strike him and he did nothing in his strongest form as his best feat thus far.

Conclusion for your Luffy - Please read the story again.


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Now, please. Show me something that Kaido has done that outmatches Whitebeard 1v1.




*Spoiler*: __ 







Old WB didn't defeat a Marco level fighter in his MF form.

Old WB can't thank  kong organ with his body with no scratch.



This is the defining factor of how Kaid will win!


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> COA: Marco - he was fighting against all three Admirals, Luffy has shown no feats of this and struggles against Yonkou Commanders.
> COO: Marco - Luffy just learned to use his future sight abilities and hasn't even mastered them completely. as a matter of fact, Luffy's lack of using his observation during key moments is why the plot progresses at times. Gazelleman, anyone?
> COC: Luffy - We don't even know if Marco has COC, I don't even know why this is a thing considering it's a non-factor as Marco was completely unaffected by Shanks khaki who was trying to exude as much of it on Moby Dick as possible, so Luffy's COC probably won't even affect Marco, but alright.
> 
> ...



Dude fanction much?
COA: Advance COA> not showing even a trace of COA, touching Admirals means that you have haki, that is all.
Defeating Kata means is you have above-average COA, 
There is invisible COA, reinforced COA, mixing COA+ DF: G4  Barrier COA(next level COA shown by Ray and Admiral) and Infusing COA in the body of the user(max level for now) used by Luffy to have a chance of defeating Kaido


COO FS> non FS.

This is very simple: FS is the peak period.

AP: Marco has never wounded any top tier

KKG alone puts Luffy above the paycheck of all the feats that YC did and Marco never has shown great AP.

Now add to  KKG the max level of COA and you get top tier AP.


Portrait Luffy.


Feats: Clashes are not feats, learn to debate.

Now should we compare panels?

You are one delusional individual, do you even know what feats are?

What you type is hype, feats are panel gent.

Now bring me panels for all that text, I can bring for what I say.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Not getting stabbed by a fodder and spit blood ?
> Not having frequent heart and diarrhea attacks.
> One shoting a FM level character, something nobody has done in the manga ?
> Plus the manny ways people talk about him ?
> ...


You mean when he was sick and he was trusted his crew and we don't know Squardo's power? OK.
When did WB have a diarrhea attack? Still made quakes that could be felt from a distance so far you can't see Marineford over the horizon, something never seen before in the series with those heart issues, but OK.
You mean Oden? When the Witch made herself into his son and used it as a decoy so Kaido could get a free hit? That's called a cheap shot. Do you remember when Oden was about to kill Kaido after he struck him with a twin sword attack before that? I do.
People talked about WB also, still calling him the Strongest Man while characters like Kaido, Big Mom and Shanks existed. Was considered the strongest character on the sea at the time by many high ranking individuals.

Show me where he stated that he was stronger than WB when there is more evidence that WB was stronger, still, while sick.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Dude fanction much?
> COA: Advance COA> not showing even a trace of COA
> COO FS> non FS.
> 
> ...


COA: Except we don't know the full power of Marco because Haki's most prominent abilities weren't fully developed until Post Time Skip, which is why we didn't see things like Ryuo or Dark Hued Limbs during the Paramount War.
COO: I don't know what you're saying here, Luffy can have Future sight if he wants, but if he can't see that he's about to get curbstomped by Kaidou, he's shit outta luck.

AP: Can you show me Luffy striking an Admiral or someone on that level and knocking them away, it's like saying Sanji's kicks don't affect a character because no broken bones are seen...

You're telling me to learn to debate when you have no evidence. I thought you conceded already, I'm not wasting my time with you anymore, lol.


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> COA: Except we don't know the full power of Marco because Haki's most prominent abilities weren't fully developed until Post Time Skip, which is why we didn't see things like Ryuo or Dark Hued Limbs during the Paramount War.
> COO: I don't know what you're saying here, Luffy can have Future sight if he wants, but if he can't see that he's about to get curbstomped by Kaidou, he's shit outta luck.
> 
> AP: Can you show me Luffy striking an Admiral or someone on that level and knocking them away, it's like saying Sanji's kicks don't affect a character because no broken bones are seen...
> ...


Lack of evidence is not evidence, feats are panels, you wanted a debate in the arena, you got one.

Marco has no COA feats, Arena debate Luffy wins on COA on a landslide.

COO: he can see the future, Marco can't, Luffy is better.

And you were saying that Luffy could not use his COO, here why these two uber COA user did not even make Akainu bleed?


*Spoiler*: __ 







Btw he can be as you can see in here:


You have 3 close up panels with him coughing blood in here.

You can wound Akainu but you need this kind of COA:



Or this:



That shit is not enough for Kaido, he was using too much brute strength ...

He first tried to use you know base + regular COA vs hard mochi hardened by COA:





This was a FM's COA Btw.

He was learning that to face juggernauts like BM and Kaido:


This shit is the most powerful thing that will be used on Kaid with G4 but clashing with Admiral means you have now more powerful COA then that LOL!

AP:

*Spoiler*: __ 






Jozu did this, he does not have better AP that Luffy who did this:



If this hits Aokiji he bleeds more.


NO YC has even reproduced this much AP.
And if you include the panel above  you get solid top tier AP.





Gomu said:


> You're telling me to learn to debate when you have no evidence. I thought you conceded already, I'm not wasting my time with you anymore, lol.


Arena rules mate, panels >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> words.
no, you didn't words or clashes are not feats.

Your lack of feats is not evidence.

Yes, learn to debate, you are arogant and that is all.

Arena rules,

Panels>Portrait> hype.

You are using hype of classing with admirals to debunk hard panels.

Now debunk this with panels, I will be waiting. I let is slide because I am a good guy but yeah let's debunk your words with panels.



Gomu said:


> How do we know that Marco does not have Ryuo? We saw the Admirals perform the feat, it's not just centered on top tier characters


You don't know but Katakuri does not have it and he is FM, Marco failed to even make Akainu bleed from a  side attack.
Admirals only showed the second stage of COA and they are top tiers, we can scale them to max COA and not a FM like Marco.

Lack of evidence is not evidence and this is the arena, panels are better than portrait or hype.

Top high tiers have only one top Haki and that would be either FS or COA and Luffy has both so Marco is losing this one.

Again in the Arena Luffy has way better feats and clashing with Admirals and not wounding means you are Jozu level or more, not top tier.


Gomu said:


> how do we not know that characters like Marco didn't learn considering they were with the masters of all Haki abilities.


This is not a what if this is the arena, so no and Marco was never said to be a master of haki!


Gomu said:


> Haki can only do so much if you don't have the physicality.


Luffy is strong physically and his AP >>>>>>>>>>> Marco has shown on  a panel.



Gomu said:


> Guess who was fighting the Admirals,


That is not a feat that is hype learn the difference, he never landed any solid heats, and Luffy was using G3 my man start to learn the difference.


Gomu said:


> SABO is superior to Luffy


In what bring the panels that prove that!


Gomu said:


> Landing a blow against an Admiral is a feat in itself


Now is not when Jozu did that and he is a YC that was one shot by Aokiji when he was distracted.


Gomu said:


> The only thing Luffy has truly learned is a better control over his haki and fruit abilities moreso than physical upgrades, though he probably has those too, Katakuri is still superior to him, and that's the problem.


In what?
Let's check : COO maybe  but save level.
COA:2 levels above.
COC sam level if not Luffy above.
AP: KKg >>>>>>> hard mochi.
Snake man is faster than Kata.
Endurance >>>>>>>>> Kata.
Wrong again.


Gomu said:


> People should not mistake "more feats" as being a superior category against a character who was even stated capable of fighting Blackbeard.


No mate lear to debate in the arena feats are essential, hype is only when he was hyped as close to BB when in fact it was a stomp as the manga said.


Gomu said:


> I guarantee you, not until he can clash equally with Yonkou and Admirals, as they are literally the two biggest hurdles he needs to overcome, including Akainu.


Dude he clashed with Fuji, BM and Kaido and he will defeat Kaido this arc ... delusional much?


Gomu said:


> Oda even stated that the potential of Akainu is so high that he'd have finished the story much quicker than Luffy has, maybe even Gol Roger if he had all the tools prepared beforehand. That means he'd have defeated the Yonkou and the Marines in a single year.


No, he said if Akainu was the protagonist aka if Luffy started at Akainu's level.
Roger didn't defeat BM, Kaido or WB get a grip fan fiction much?

You are asking for evidence yet all your comments are about hype.
:gitgud


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You mean when he was sick and he was trusted his crew and we don't know Squardo's power? OK.
> *When did WB have a diarrhea attack?* Still made quakes that could be felt from a distance so far you can't see Marineford over the horizon, something never seen before in the series with those heart issues, but OK.
> *You mean Oden*? When the Witch made herself into his son and used it as a decoy so Kaido could get a free hit? That's called a cheap shot. Do you remember when Oden was about to kill Kaido after he struck him with a twin sword attack before that? I do.
> *People talked about WB also, still calling him the Strongest Man while characters like Kaido, Big Mom and Shanks existed*. Was considered the strongest character on the sea at the time by many high ranking individuals.
> ...


first bold was a joke, lol.
second bold I was referring to Luffy, Oden was way above FM level. 
third bold, never suggested that was not true. Prime (definitely) and possibly even healthy old wb is above the rest of the yonko.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> first bold was a joke, lol.
> second bold I was referring to Luffy, Oden was way above FM level.
> third bold, never suggested that was not true. Prime (definitely) and possibly even healthy old wb is above the rest of the yonko.


A piece of advice, he seams biassed.

First of all, WB was nerfed to hell in  MF.

 If we make a none induced plot vs then MF WB has a chance even with Kaido but the problem for MF WB is only one his health, there are a lot of chances of him getting wounded and Kaido is the opposite you really need solid attacks on him to even make him start bleeding like WB did to Akainu aka off guard and solid hit.

*Spoiler*: __ 










Duhul10 said:


> Prime (definitely) and possibly even healthy old wb is above the rest of the yonko.



Healthy WB old or not he fucks you up even if your name is Kaido or Akainu.
At best you can draw with the dude because he can wound you with his bisento and finish you off with this:


*Spoiler*: __ 







Yes, he will die so but I don't think he would care that much.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> A piece of advice, he seams biassed.
> 
> First of all, WB was nerfed to hell in  MF.
> 
> ...


Nah, bro. WB was hurt by most attacks thrown at him at MF. After some club hits from Kaido he will feel really bad given his extremely low stamina and resistance due to bad health. On the other hand,  WB has to give his best shots to hurt that dude. It will be a battle of endurance which will have a sole winner . 

And yes, he was nerfed at MF, that is what I am actually trying to say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Nah, bro. WB was hurt by most attacks thrown at him at MF. After some club hits from Kaido he will feel really bad given his extremely low stamina and resistance due to bad health. On the other hand,  WB has to give his best shots to hurt that dude. It will be a battle of endurance which will have a sole winner .
> 
> And yes, he was nerfed at MF, that is what I am actually trying to say.


We are not disagreeing on that at all.
He has a chance thanks to his AP given by his DF, but my money is on Kaido thanks to his resistance, either way it is an extreme diff for Kaido and he can be I don't know sank by WB before he can leave, even if WB will also die.

I see it ending as in this fan-made one:


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## Kinjin (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> @Soca and @Kinjin can you checked if I derailed the thread.
> I had a headache with debating this user.
> 
> I even am trying to not type that much but...
> ...


I don't understand why you constantly say "bye" and "I'm done" yet continue to reply to this user. I'm not sure why you delete your posts either because they're still in quotes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Apr 28, 2020)

Kinjin said:


> I don't understand why you constantly say "bye" and "I'm done" yet continue to reply to this user. I'm not sure why you delete your posts either because they're still in quotes.


I changed my mind after he still replayed with the same rhetoric.


I deleted those because I made one with panels and feats below the initial response.
I don't care about the quotes, those posts are not mine so I can't do anything about that.


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## Beast (Apr 28, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yeah then imagine a KKG with Advance COA non blocked the same treatement that Kaido will get and please tell me that Fuji will just block more than Kaido ... LOL!
> 
> 
> I was comparing Durability and sure did not compare anything else.
> ...


Fuji would need to block, maybe he could tank but there isnt anything to suggest that. 

Why would you compare durability, that’s Kaidou and BMs biggest asset. 

ThTs fanfic, Fuji getting his fruit recently is just a made up fanfic, never been mentioned by anyone. At his age, Fuji more then likely had his fruit as long as most DF users, which is most of their life.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> first bold was a joke, lol.
> second bold I was referring to Luffy, Oden was way above FM level.
> third bold, never suggested that was not true. Prime (definitely) and possibly even healthy old wb is above the rest of the yonko.


Not really in a joking mood if you guys are calling people "high" because they have good points, so forgive me if I don't laugh. Turrin was giving points that actually made a lot of sense and you guys bagged on him for it.
Luffy was also one-shotted by Big Mom after getting stronger during his prisoner days. This was without Haki, btw. Luffy's durability is not so far above G4 that he shouldn't be able to take attacks from her if he can take attacks from Katakuri as he's considered a First Mate, right? Just taking you guys accounting system into question here. It doesn't make sense. Yonkou are like small waves versus tsunamis even when compared to Yonkou Commanders in this instance as seen with how difficult it was to even inflict a headache on Big Mom from Queen.


Duhul10 said:


> Nah, bro. WB was hurt by most attacks thrown at him at MF. After some club hits from Kaido he will feel really bad given his extremely low stamina and resistance due to bad health. On the other hand,  WB has to give his best shots to hurt that dude. It will be a battle of endurance which will have a sole winner .
> 
> And yes, he was nerfed at MF, that is what I am actually trying to say.


He was hurt by most attacks? Where was this? Are we implying that Akainu isn't a top tier again? Quakes out of Ice Age with no issues. Squardo's sword? Big Mom bruised her knee when she was in psychological paralysis. Pretty sure Kaido has to do the same. He's not just tanking Quake shots, my guy. Once again, they are some of the most powerful attacks seen from the series, as stated in series and by Blackbeard who grabbed it because of its power. Just by gaining the fruit with zero control over it, he tilted Marineford effortlessly. "Battle of Endurance" means nothing if you get Quake punched.

He wasn't nerfed. Literally the strongest characters in the series were hit by attacks like bullets and died. Oden literally died by being shot in the face by a bullet after his oil baptism by Kaido.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Not really in a joking mood if you guys are calling people "high" because they have *good points*, so forgive me if I don't laugh. Turrin was giving points that actually made a lot of sense and you guys bagged on him for it.
> Luffy was also one-shotted by Big Mom after getting stronger during his prisoner days. This was without Haki, btw. Luffy's durability is not so far above G4 that he shouldn't be able to take attacks from her if he can take attacks from Katakuri as he's considered a First Mate, right? Just taking you guys accounting system into question here. It doesn't make sense. Yonkou are like small waves versus tsunamis even when compared to Yonkou Commanders in this instance as seen with how difficult it was to even inflict a headache on Big Mom from Queen.
> 
> He was hurt by most attacks? Where was this? Are we implying that Akainu isn't a top tier again? Quakes out of Ice Age with no issues. Squardo's sword? Big Mom bruised her knee when she was in psychological paralysis. Pretty sure Kaido has to do the same. He's not just tanking Quake shots, my guy. Once again, they are some of the most powerful attacks seen from the series, as stated in series and by Blackbeard who grabbed it because of its power. Just by gaining the fruit with zero control over it, he tilted Marineford effortlessly. "Battle of Endurance" means nothing if you get Quake punched.
> ...


end of discussion. Debate this with anyone you want to. I am not going to.

as for WB, everyone who hit him drew blood, affecting him. Again, nothing to discuss.
also lol about the BM comparison; then you proceed to admit yourself that it had nothing to do with a conflict


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> end of discussion. Debate this with anyone you want to. I am not going to.
> 
> as for WB, everyone who hit him drew blood. Again, nothing to discuss.


Everyone that hit him? Once again we don't know Squardo's abilities, could have been a top tier pirate. Who else hit him that was low tier that drew blood? Him getting shot, it took literally hundreds of bullets and cannons to kill him. So forgive me if I don't understand. Once again, characters like Oden died from a bullet to the head.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Everyone that hit him? Once again we don't know Squardo's abilities, could have been a* top tier* pirate. Who else hit him that was low tier that drew blood? Him getting shot, it took literally hundreds of bullets and cannons to kill him. So forgive me if I don't understand. Once again, characters like Oden died from a bullet to the head.


a top tier bullied by Marco, never mentioned in the manga again. All those fodders hurt him and drew blood.
Oden died after getting boiled, from Kaido's bullet, lol.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> a top tier bullied by Marco, never mentioned in the manga again. All those fodders hurt him and drew blood.
> Oden died after getting boiled, from Kaido's bullet, lol.


You don't think that being sick can't decrease one's effectiveness, yet he was still one of the prevailing forces in the Paramount War, he would still have been stronger than Kaido given what it took to take him down in the first place. He fought every Admiral and sustained damage from them yet was still difficult to take down. Took shots from all of them, even tanking Ice Age with no debilitating effects while sick. Oda has consistently shown that if characters suffer debilitating effects, they are weakened. He still stalemated a slash from one of the most powerful swordsmen in the series (Shanks), Big Mom still thought she needed help in order to take him down, and Kaido was stopped by fucking Shanks of all people, we don't know how, but Kaido was the one who backed down any way, so I don't understand how you think he was stronger than Whitebeard who had no problem, while sick, taking on three Admirals having half his face taken off and yet still able to fight for a prolonged period of time. I really do hate that Kaido has no real feats of being on par with even sick Whitebeard yet people think he's inferior. 

Especially since with the page I showed earlier from the Yonkou vs Admiral thread, everything about Kaido could be a rumor, or its a Mistranslation of his abilities "King of the Beasts" is more appropriate than "World's Strongest Creature" for instance. You're taking something that is often shrouded in mystery and making it seem as though it's fact. Show me where Oda stated that Kaido was stronger than WB since you hold on to that notion for dear life.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You don't think that being sick can't decrease one's effectiveness, yet he was still one of the prevailing forces in the Paramount War, he would still have been stronger than Kaido given what it took to take him down in the first place. He fought every Admiral and sustained damage from them yet was still difficult to take down. Took shots from all of them, even tanking Ice Age with no debilitating effects while sick. Oda has consistently shown that if characters suffer debilitating effects, they are weakened. He still stalemated a slash from one of the most powerful swordsmen in the series (Shanks), Big Mom still thought she needed help in order to take him down, and Kaido was stopped by fucking Shanks of all people, we don't know how, but Kaido was the one who backed down any way, so I don't understand how you think he was stronger than Whitebeard who had no problem, while sick, taking on three Admirals having half his face taken off and yet still able to fight for a prolonged period of time. *I really do hate that Kaido has no real feats of being on par with even sick Whitebeard yet people think he's inferior. *
> 
> Especially since with the page I showed earlier from the Yonkou vs Admiral thread, everything about Kaido could be a rumor, or its a Mistranslation of his abilities "King of the Beasts" is more appropriate than "World's Strongest Creature" for instance. You're taking something that is often shrouded in mystery and making it seem as though it's fact. Show me where Oda stated that Kaido was stronger than WB since you hold on to that notion for dear life.


No, taking damage for some time does not put him above Kaido who is bothered because he can't die. So what if he took shots from the Admirals ? Many people took shots from the admirals in that war. Big Mom did not know how sick he was. Nobody at MF did either. Not even his crew knew the extent of his form. 
Why did Shanks even meet Kaido in the first place ? 
the bold is the funniest part. Kaido one shot a first mate level character after allowing him to throw whatever he wanted. NOBODY else did something like that in this manga.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> No, taking damage for some time does not put him above Kaido who is bothered because he can't die. So what if he took shots from the Admirals ? Many people took shots from the admirals in that war. Big Mom did not know how sick he was. Nobody at MF did either. Not even his crew knew the extent of his form.
> Why did Shanks even meet Kaido in the first place ?
> the bold is the funniest part. Kaido one shot a first mate level character after allowing him to throw whatever he wanted. NOBODY else did something like that in this manga.


Invulnerability is not Immortality, please understand that. He can't take damage easily, literally that's his strongest attribute. Yet, ODEN almost kills him. So his Immortality is a lie. Those people were some of the strongest characters in the series, bud. It doesn't matter how sick she knew he was, she knew not to fuck with him, Kaido wanted to fuck with him yet was stopped by a supposedly weaker character... I wonder why. His crew did know, it was the reason he was on a fucking dialysis set-up when we first meet him, lol.

Shank explains he didn't want a larger war when he enters. The fact that he meets Kaido lends more to the credibility of "Kaido isn't as strong as you think" mentality, though.

Kaido literally has a death wish, that's the entire point of his character. He literally shows up from falling from Sky Island wishing to die. Luffy couldn't even dent him, lol. You guys and these delusions.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Invulnerability is not Immortality, please understand that. He can't take damage easily, literally that's his strongest attribute. Yet, ODEN almost kills him. So his Immortality is a lie. Those people were some of the strongest characters in the series, bud. It doesn't matter how sick she knew he was, she knew not to fuck with him, Kaido wanted to fuck with him yet was stopped by a supposedly weaker character... I wonder why. His crew did know, it was the reason *he was on a fucking dialysis set-up when we first meet him, lol.*
> 
> Shank explains he didn't want a larger war when he enters. The fact that he meets Kaido lends more to the credibility of "Kaido isn't as strong as you think" mentality, though.
> 
> Kaido literally has a death wish, that's the entire point of his character. He literally shows up from falling from Sky Island wishing to die. Luffy couldn't even dent him, lol. You guys and these delusions.


Comparing 20 years ago kaido to current Kaido 
We have no idea what happened between Shanks and Kaido. Shanks came to Marineford unscathed. Are you suggesting he would no diff Kaido ?
as for the bolded, I was expecting you to ignore that I specifically mentioned ''the extent of his form''.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Comparing 20 years ago kaido to current Kaido
> We have no idea what happened between Shanks and Kaido. Shanks came to Marineford unscathed. Are you suggesting he would no diff Kaido ?
> as for the bolded, I was expecting you to ignore that I specifically mentioned ''the extent of his form''.


OK Genius. How did he become immortal from 20 years to current Kaido, buddy?

You think Kaido, from what we've seen of him thus far, both past and present, would turn down a challenge from someone with the ability to kill him.

I don't care about his form. Facts are. Whitebeard has some of the strongest AP and Kaido has shown he can be hurt by sufficiently powerful impacts and force. He's not Immortal, he's only invulnerable to an extent.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> OK Genius. *How did he become immortal from 20 years to current Kaido, buddy?*
> 
> You think Kaido, from what we've seen of him thus far, both past and present, would turn down a challenge from someone with the ability to kill him.
> 
> *I don't care about his form*. Facts are. Whitebeard has some of the strongest AP and Kaido has shown he can be hurt by sufficiently powerful impacts and force. He's not Immortal, he's only invulnerable to an extent.


He became even more durable than he was of course. Whether he truly is immortal or not, we do not know for sure, what we do know is that present Kaido is sad because nothing kills him.

Second bold just summed up the entire debate.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> He became even more durable than he was of course. Whether he truly is immortal or not, we do not know for sure, what we do know is that present Kaido is sad because nothing kills him.
> 
> Second bold just summed up the entire debate.


But that's not the same as being completely immortal. Big Mom did not want to fight him before, nor Shanks because there was no point, they'd stalemate one another, as we just saw before they teamed up. Kaido has been shown being hurt and almost killed, which is why the Witch does what she does, otherwise, Oden would have killed him. Invulnerability is not immortality, Superman is Invulnerable to most forms of physical damage until a sufficiently powerful force hits him and he bleeds like any other individual. 

Nah, because the facts are the facts. I'm still waiting for you to show where Oda implied Kaido was stronger than WB in any instance. If anything, WB was consistently shown to be stronger than everyone.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> But that's not the same as being completely immortal. Big Mom did not want to fight him before, nor Shanks because there was no point, they'd stalemate one another, as we just saw before they teamed up. Kaido has been shown being hurt and almost killed, which is why the Witch does what she does, otherwise, Oden would have killed him. Invulnerability is not immortality, Superman is Invulnerable to most forms of physical damage until a sufficiently powerful force hits him and he bleeds like any other individual.
> 
> Nah, because the facts are the facts. I'm still waiting for you to show where Oda implied Kaido was stronger than WB in any instance. If anything, *WB was consistently shown to be stronger than everyone*.


Before MF, yeah why not
At MF, he was a relic getting tagged and hurt by fodders.
But you've already stated you ignore the shameful form he showed at MF, so yeah, excluding MF, he was the strongest, you are right.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Before MF, yeah why not
> At MF, he was a relic getting tagged and hurt by fodders.
> But you've already stated you ignore the shameful form he showed at MF, so yeah, excluding MF, he was the strongest, you are right.


He wasn't getting tagged by orders, though. Blackbeard hurt Shanks. This Shanks fought characters like Mihawk who was already considered one of the strongest swordsmen in the world. Ace could counter Aokiji who fought Akainu and lost after stalemating him for days. Akainu struck Whitebeard with a magma fist, and Oda has gone on to cite that Akainu's power is one of the most destructive in One Piece along with Akainu's own power from being a top tier. "Getting tagged by fodder" he tanks a laser to the chest, as well as a magma fist to the chest and still is not brought down. I can't begin to comprehend what you mean by "fodder" beat him when he has some of the best damage soak in the series, did not think Squardo would stab him in the back, still fights and consistently kicks the shit in of multiple top tier characters and yet you think he was "tagged by fodder". You gotta show me this fodder he was tagged by, my guy. Please. Do that, at least, you haven't shown me where Oda stated Kaido was stronger, at least show me these fodder.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

We are running in circles. He was tagged and hurt by multiple fodders, squardo being the only named one. I do not care if he took some shots from the admirals as I have already stated, others did as well. I also do not need to provide scans with panels you were supposed to know at this moment. I will give you the chapter: 569; Oda stated Kaido is the world strongest creature. Creature= living thing
That was repeated in the Ace novel.
MF wb has nothing on Kaido, or other yonkos either. He was on his deathbed.

What I do give you, is that he overpowered Akainu after blindsiding him, that he did.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> We are running in circles. He was tagged and hurt by multiple fodders, squardo being the only named one. I do not care if he took some shots from the admirals as I have already stated, others did as well. I also do not need to provide scans with panels you were supposed to know at this moment. I will give you the chapter: 569; Oda stated Kaido is the world strongest creature. Creature= living thing
> That was repeated in the Ace novel.
> MF wb has nothing on Kaido, or other yonkos either. He was on his deathbed.
> 
> What I do give you, is that he overpowered Akainu after blindsiding him, that he did.


Going to need you to read this for me: 

So you're conceding because you can't show me these fodder. Literally, some of the strongest characters in the series were at the War. I don't know why you can't show me what you're selling, but just understand that your point is invalid if there's no evidence that he was hit by any other "fodder" other than a person on his crew that he trusted. He was still the person dealing the most damage in the War, still the one who was feared as stated by a top tier like Sengoku who was stated in the past to being one of the people that could give him and Roger a fight. Etc. You have no foundation and you, just like Ren are going off headcanon.

If you are willing to make those claims, then show proof.


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## Red Admiral (Apr 28, 2020)

right now?

Luffy


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> right now?
> 
> Luffy


Can you explain why?


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> *Going to need you to read this for me: *
> 
> So you're conceding because you can't show me these fodder. Literally, some of the strongest characters in the series were at the War. I don't know why you can't show me what you're selling, but just understand that your point is invalid if there's no evidence that he was hit by any other "fodder" other than a person on his crew that he trusted. He was still the person dealing the most damage in the War, still the one who was feared as stated by a top tier like Sengoku who was stated in the past to being one of the people that could give him and Roger a fight. Etc. You have no foundation and you, just like Ren are going off headcanon.
> 
> If you are willing to make those claims, then show proof.


bold, lol, sending me links from other posters. I've sent you the chapter. There are 4 fodders ganging up on WB. Did you skip those parts completely or did you close you eyes for those panels ?


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> bold, lol, sending me links from other posters. I've sent you the chapter. There are 4 fodders ganging up on WB. Did you skip those parts completely or did you close you eyes for those panels ?


Look what he says to these "fodder" and this is also after having fights with Akainu and the other Admirals who are on par with the Yonkou


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## Zero (Apr 28, 2020)

@Gomu 
Wouldn't Luffy's Advanced Aranment Haki be enough to put down Marco?
Especially now since he's lost to Kaido and now is going to use that new ability against him, he should be on Marco's level or slightly  above. 

*Spoiler*: __


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Look what he says to these "fodder" and this is also after having fights with Akainu and the other Admirals *who are on par with the Yonkou*


what he says does not matter. He encourages himself and his men. He got tagged and hurt by some nobodies. He was panting after the contact. The bolded is strictly your opinion.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

FlyingBison said:


> @Gomu
> Wouldn't Luffy's Advanced Aranment Haki be enough to put down Marco?
> Especially now since he's lost to Kaido and now is going to use that new ability against him, he should be on Marco's level or slightly  above.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __


We don't know it's effects on characters of higher caliber. You're forgetting that these characters when prepared, have stronger bodies than natural stone and at times steel, as shown when Big Mom was considered an "Iron Balloon" and Sanji comments that Vergo's body is like an iron mass. If anything, the technique can be considered similar to the internal damage caused by characters like Jinbe who has a similar technique in his mastered Fishman Karate that does internal damage. It will do damage to him, but Marco has better speed, power, and reflexes than Luffy has shown thus far. And he has regeneration backing him up. He's stronger than Luffy until otherwise shown, Gear 4th isn't the IN ALL BE ALL. They make it as if Gear 4th is the only thing needed to take people as strong as Yonkou/Admirals down. Until I can see Luffy do similar feats as Marco to Admiral-class opponents, he's not that strong. It took all his power to push away Kaido.

*END ALL BE ALL


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> what he says does not matter. He encourages himself and his men. He got tagged and hurt by some nobodies. He was panting after the contact. The bolded is strictly your opinion.


Do you not see all the battle damage he took before being stabbed by those fodder. Are we going to act like he didn't fight Admirals before this...

Can you show me where Admirals are berated as weaker than Yonkou. I showed you the link, several panels talk about Admirals and Yonkou in the same breadth, Luffy even considers them the same fucking wall. Kizaru literally just stated he's more than willing to fight the Yonkou if ordered.

*Also, he was panting because he had a fucking hole in his chest and was still able to fight. I think we call that a fucking tank.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Do you not see all the battle damage he took before being stabbed by those fodder. Are we going to act like he didn't fight Admirals before this...


For a short period of time, he did. A full fight between two prime top tiers takes up to 10 days buddy. If he was panting after 5 minutes, it is even worse. I am going to sleep, now. In my country it is 2 o'clock in the morning  It was nice talking to you. Just please do not repeat the Marco> Kaido thing. It's really embarrassing. That yonko v yonko or yonko v admiral it's debatable, but please do not spread nonsense like the marco thing.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> For a short period of time, he did. A full fight between two prime top tiers takes up to 10 days buddy. If he was panting after 5 minutes, it is even worse. I am going to sleep, now. In my country it is 2 o'clock in the morning  It was nice talking to you. Just please do not repeat the Marco> Kaido thing. It's really embarrassing. That yonko v yonko or yonko v admiral it's debatable, but please do not spread nonsense like the marco thing.


I never said Marco was superior to Kaido, but OK. Yeah, Goodnight. Make sure that you showcase some actual feats rather than saying "it's from this chapter", it's really embarrassing that you state something yet can't show what's needed to cement your response. Cause from where I'm sitting, you're in denial. And if that's how you wish to live, that's OK. It just means we're not reading the same fucking story.

PS: I can tell you this much, you didn't put half as much work in as that young man did, and it shows. This is some Trump Supporter shit, though I should have known, this is debating this day and age, talk shit with no backup.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I never said Marco was superior to Kaido, but OK. Yeah, Goodnight. Make sure that you showcase some actual feats rather than saying "it's from this chapter", it's really embarrassing that you state something yet can't show what's needed to submit your response. Cause from where I'm sitting, you're in denial. And if that's how you wish to live, that's OK. It just means we're not reading the same fucking story.


To be fair, I was expecting you to guess right from the bat and I also seem to have a problem with pictures on this forum, it used to work some years ago, it might be my laptop/windows idk


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> To be fair, I was expecting you to guess right from the bat and I also seem to have a problem with pictures on this forum, it used to work some years ago, it might be my laptop/windows idk


That's not my problem, you can still send links and use imgur links to cement your claims. You do the work necessary to prove your point. The link you're talking about was a man who did the work necessary to showcase his response. There has never been a single time that Admirals were considered lesser than Yonkou. The most prominent Yonkou they fought, WB was superior to the Yonkou and was an exception, not the rule and Akainu took head-on attacks from him as well as one of the various reasons he died along with his sickness. 

He fought all three Yonkou, took multiple attacks from them, including lasers, Ice Age and various attacks while he was at his weakest from characters like Blackbeard who was a man not scared enough to have a fight with Shanks but wanted no problems from WB himself (1v1 not crew to crew as his crew was too weak). So when I hear this shit stated that Kaido was stronger yet there was no evidence and even evidence that he was, in fact, weaker, it sickens me, because the state of the world is "I say it's right, so it's right" instead of taking what's necessary from the conversation and improving your knowledge. You nor Ren, wish to do that, and it's your fault and you will have to figure it out somehow, just don't be upset when you're wrong.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> That's not my problem, you can still send links and use imgur links to cement your claims. You do the work necessary to prove your point. The link you're talking about was a man who did the work necessary to showcase his response. There has never been a single time that Admirals were considered lesser than Yonkou. The most prominent Yonkou they fought, WB was superior to the Yonkou and was an exception, not the rule and Akainu took head-on attacks from him as well as one of the various reasons he died along with his sickness.
> 
> He fought all three Yonkou, took multiple attacks from them, including lasers, Ice Age and various attacks while he was at his weakest from characters like Blackbeard who was a man not scared enough to have a fight with Shanks but wanted no problems from WB himself (1v1 not crew to crew as his crew was too weak). So when I hear this shit stated that Kaido was stronger yet there was no evidence and even evidence that he was, in fact, weaker, it sickens me, because the state of the world is "I say it's right, so it's right" instead of taking what's necessary from the conversation and improving your knowledge. You nor Ren, wish to do that, and it's your fault and you will have to figure it out somehow, just don't be upset when you're wrong.


Dude, you considered Turrin's point about Marco to be good. The debate should have ended there but I was like " oh, maybe he means something else ".
You keep your opinion, I will keep mine. Time will show which one of us is right. I have Oda's own words on my side. Deny them or not, it is what it is. Kaido is > than Akainu no matter how you put it ( the author stated it ). But again, an opinion is an opinion. Try to be less aggressive in debates and do not consider yourself to be the owner of absolute truth as it is clear, you are not. Goodnight, my friend.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Dude, you considered Turrin's point about Marco to be good. The debate should have ended there but I was like " oh, maybe he means something else ".
> You keep your opinion, I will keep mine. Time will show which one of us is right. I have Oda's own words on my side. Deny them or not, it is what it is. Kaido is > than Akainu no matter how you put it ( the author stated it ). But again, an opinion is an opinion. Try to be less aggressive in debates and do not consider yourself to be the owner of absolute truth as it is clear, you are not. Goodnight, my friend.


I never stated, nor did Turrin state that Marco was superior to Kaido. I stated that Kaido was inferior even to a sick WB because he was still able to fight three admirals and be dominant for most of those clashes, because as I showed with the link from Yonko v. Admirals, they have never been considered weaker than Yonkou, and should have no reason to be as WB was the exception, not the rule. I'm not putting words in your mouth so please don't put words in mine.

Again, you say the author stated something. Yet you don't show it. Never has it ever been stated that Kaido was superior to Akainu. Especially considering how Akainu fought WB and could sustain damage from his strongest attacks and still survive them without issue yet still wish to chase and kill Luffy. Show this quote, because in the canon materials he is never called "Strongest Creature" only "King of the Beasts" as stated from the link I showed.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I never stated, nor did Turrin state that Marco was superior to Kaido. I stated that Kaido was inferior even to a sick WB because he was still able to fight three admirals and be dominant for most of those clashes, because as I showed with the link from Yonko v. Admirals, they have never been considered weaker than Yonkou, and should have no reason to be as WB was the exception, not the rule. I'm not putting words in your mouth so please don't put words in mine.
> 
> *Again, you say the author stated something. Yet you don't show it. Never has it ever been stated that Kaido was superior to Akainu*. Especially considering how Akainu fought WB and could sustain damage from his strongest attacks and still survive them without issue yet still wish to chase and kill Luffy. Show this quote, because in the canon materials he is never called "Strongest Creature" only "King of the Beasts" as stated from the link I showed.


Unfortunately, it happened in an SBS. This is not a picture to show, ot was something stated. For this, you can believe me or not, I do not care. You are already getting things too far. You are asking for pictures for absolutely every simple, clear and known all around thing. It makes you look like you haven't been around for some time.
Everybody knows that f*cking SBS 
It's SBS volume 83 iirc. Again, I allow you not to believe me, I couldn't care less actually


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Everybody knows that f*cking SBS 
It's SBS volume 83 iirc. Again, I allow you not to believe me, I couldn't care less actually [/QUOTE]


"
*D: Odacchi!! In the sbs from volume 82 you told us how to escape from Akainu, bears, ghosts and the like. But when I try to do this before my angered mother I'm just beaten up... Is my mother stronger than Akainu?* P.N. Star Fairy

*O:* You better watch out! you're being too brash! A mother is the strongest living being in the world, even stronger than Kaido!! Don't you dare do it again! But, you know, your mother loves you more than anyone else."

So you do realize "World's Strongest Creature" can also mean World's Strongest Humans as, although people dislike saying this, humans are also animals, right? Oh and wait:



Even the narrator doesn't know if Kaido is the Strongest creature. Are we square yet? Any more bullshit?


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Sherlōck said:


> Marco.
> 
> Luffy hasn’t shown to dish out the level of damage Marco took and regenerated effortlessly at MF .



One punch from Garp seemed to do the trick.

If luffy is hurting Kaidou,  he's hurting Marco.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> One punch from Garp seemed to do the trick.
> 
> If luffy is hurting Kaidou,  he's hurting Marco.


You mean Garp, whose fist could contend with a guy who can split a continent in half?


Are we also going to say that Garp was out of his prime at this point despite breaking 8 mountains to crush his head too?


And before we state Luffy defeated him because he lost so much power, it was due to illness and old age. Garp has no such problems, at least he hasn't shown any problems such as that. So if you're basing your claims on that, you also have to understand that Marco was considered one of the characters able to potentially defeat Blackbeard. Luffy doesn't have Garps' firepower.

*And before I hear anything about age, Big Mom is 68 and Kaido is right around her age. I don't want to hear anything about Age. Most of these motherfuckers are beyond their primes in our world yet still extremely powerful. Stop.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You mean Garp, whose fist could contend with a guy who can split a continent in half?
> 
> 
> Are we also going to say that Garp was out of his prime at this point despite breaking 8 mountains to crush his head too?
> ...



Marco didn't take a mountain buster to the face.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Marco didn't take a mountain buster to the face.


Pretty sure Garp is still considered one of the most powerful characters in the series. You're actually saying that when characters like Sanji who MUST grow this strong to be able to fight characters on par with Yonkou Commanders exist makes no sense, as he can't just rely upon on the suit as the suit only upgrades what you already have. Garp looked to be throwing all his weight into that punch.



Marco wasn't even knocked out from the blow... You have to show feats of Luffy hurting top tiers and tanking strikes from the strongest people in the world before you can say "Luffy wins". G4 is not the end all be all. Especially when Katakuri can take said blows with no problem and he considers himself less than Big Mom, the guy you guys seem to keep hyping up as stronger than he actually is...


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Pretty sure Garp is still considered one of the most powerful characters in the series. You're actually saying that when characters like Sanji who MUST grow this strong to be able to fight characters on par with Yonkou Commanders exist makes no sense, as he can't just rely upon on the suit as the suit only upgrades what you already have. Garp looked to be throwing all his weight into that punch.
> 
> 
> 
> Marco wasn't even knocked out from the blow... You have to show feats of Luffy hurting top tiers and tanking strikes from the strongest people in the world before you can say "Luffy wins". G4 is not the end all be all. Especially when Katakuri can take said blows with no problem and he considers himself less than Big Mom, the guy you guys seem to keep hyping up as stronger than he actually is...



I'm not saying that Garp cannot bust mountains,  but that attack was not.

Garp completely blitzed Marco with that attack, 

Garp prioritized speed thus his power wasn't at max thus wasn't his most powerful punch.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I'm not saying that Garp cannot bust mountains,  but that attack was not.
> 
> Garp completely blitzed Marco with that attack,
> 
> Garp prioritized speed thus his power wasn't at max thus wasn't his most powerful punch.


Are you serious? So he came at Marco with a half-hearted attack? That's what you're telling me? Marco who is the second strongest in his crew got shafted by Garp despite Garp knowing he has regeneration and seeing what he did to Kizaru? You guys are crazy. He's in a war, he makes a proclamation that they have to go through him and he shows his seriousness by standing like a wall in front of them. There's even a shockwave at the lower right panel showcasing that the force of his strike was meant to be serious, along with how he shifts his weight in the punch. It's not like that "Fist of Love" blow that Garp gave to Luffy, there is no reason to think Garp wasn't going serious with that punch.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Are you serious? So he came at Marco with a half-hearted attack? That's what you're telling me? Marco who is the second strongest in his crew got shafted by Garp despite Garp knowing he has regeneration and seeing what he did to Kizaru? You guys are crazy. He's in a war, he makes a proclamation that they have to go through him and he shows his seriousness by standing like a wall in front of them. There's even a shockwave at the lower right panel showcasing that the force of his strike was meant to be serious, along with how he shifts his weight in the punch. It's not like that "Fist of Love" blow that Garp gave to Luffy, there is no reason to think Garp wasn't going serious with that punch.



Fast doesn't mean half - assed. 

In a fight,   quick attacks are quite important too. 

The mere fact that Marco got blitzed flying TOWARDS Garp with Garp in front of him is what is impressive. 

This is not difficult thing to understand, you've seen this with G2 and G3. The trade off with power and speed.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Fast doesn't mean half - assed.
> 
> In a fight,   quick attacks are quite important too.
> 
> ...


Buddy, you're talking about a war with the strongest pirates and marines in the series and saying Garp was using a "quick attack". So you're saying all quick attacks have no force behind them despite Luffy's Gear 2nd taking advantage of enhanced speed to increase the relative force of his punches, Sanji literally using Diable Jambe to strike a foe with his already exceptional agility to increase the relative force and burn through his opponents, etc. You're not understanding that you're full of shit. You're saying that "lol, Garp's attacks don't have the same bells and whistles as usual attacks, so they must be weaker", you can't say that. Goku's Kamehameha's from DB don't look like they can destroy the world, or the universe, but he HAS to have that much force in his blows to be able to hurt or even kill his opponents in Super, otherwise they won't do damage. Kaido and Big Mom don't name their attacks while clashing, neither did Shanks and Whitebeard, but the result was them striking with such force that it split the clouds. Attacks do not always need to "look" that powerful. Garp literally saw Kizaru kick Marco and it has no real effect on him. Why would he hold back?


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Buddy, you're talking about a war with the strongest pirates and marines in the series and saying Garp was using a "quick attack". So you're saying all quick attacks have no force behind them despite Luffy's Gear 2nd taking advantage of enhanced speed to increase the relative force of his punches, Sanji literally using Diable Jambe to strike a foe with his already exceptional agility to increase the relative force and burn through his opponents, etc. You're not understanding that you're full of shit. You're saying that "lol, Garp's attacks don't have the same bells and whistles as usual attacks, so they must be weaker", you can't say that. Goku's Kamehameha's from DB don't look like they can destroy the world, or the universe, but he HAS to have that much force in his blows to be able to hurt or even kill his opponents in Super, otherwise they won't do damage. Kaido and Big Mom don't name their attacks while clashing, neither did Shanks and Whitebeard, but the result was them striking with such force that it split the clouds. Attacks do not always need to "look" that powerful. Garp literally saw Kizaru kick Marco and it has no real effect on him. Why would he hold back?



You're going way off here.  I never said that there wasn't force behind it

But it's simply not going to be as powerful, as  if he was prioritizing power instead,  which is what he did against Chinajo.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> You're going way off here.  I never said that there wasn't force behind it
> 
> But it's simply not going to be as powerful, as  if he was prioritizing power instead,  which is what he did against Chinajo.


Every attack is as powerful as it needs to be unless otherwise stated or shown to be that. You can't pick and choose when an attack is at its strongest, it would be cherry picking what you want to. What we know is, Garp is known to have some of the most powerful punches in verse, literally from his moniker. You don't get to choose when and when he doesn't have that force. If a Gomu Gomu no Pistol hits a character, and they have an Islands worth of durability, that punch is Island level. Marco is seen taking attacks from the strongest characters in the series, do not undercut him when you see fit.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Every attack is as powerful as it needs to be unless otherwise stated or shown to be that. You can't pick and choose when an attack is at its strongest, it would be cherry picking what you want to. What we know is, Garp is known to have some of the most powerful punches in verse, literally from his moniker. You don't get to choose when and when he doesn't have that force. If a Gomu Gomu no Pistol hits a character, and they have an Islands worth of durability, that punch is Island level. Marco is seen taking attacks from the strongest characters in the series, do not undercut him when you see fit.



Powerful in general?  yes, but relatively to the person executing the attack?, no

Seeing that the attack he used on chinjao was executed differently than against marco ; the attack prioritizes were different  and thus resulting force  were different.

G2 attacks for instance will never match the power of G3 because they serve two different purposes.

 If you are trying to hit a person as fast as possible,  it is not going to be your most powerful move,


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Powerful in general?  yes, but relatively to the person executing the attack?, no
> 
> Seeing that the attack he used on chinjao was executed differently than against marco ; the attack prioritizes were different  and thus resulting force  were different.
> 
> ...


You can't use attack execution as a method of judging how strong an attack is unless it's otherwise shown such a way. I'd get what you were saying if this was someone like Luffy PTS when he punched him. But this is a war and Marco is one of the strongest characters there, we have no reason to believe he took a punch as weak as you say.

To give you an understanding of what you're saying. Characters aren't using haki in this war because we aren't seeing the effects of what Haki looks like and we can only take what's being stated from other characters when haki is being used.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You can't use attack execution as a method of judging how strong an attack is unless it's otherwise shown such a way. I'd get what you were saying if this was someone like Luffy PTS when he punched him. But this is a war and Marco is one of the strongest characters there, we have no reason to believe he took a punch as weak as you say.
> 
> To give you an understanding of what you're saying. Characters aren't using haki in this war because we aren't seeing the effects of what Haki looks like and we can only take what's being stated from other characters when haki is being used.



 All i said it wasn't garp's strongest punch.  Never said it wasn't a strong one.

Unless Garp can mountain bust from  quick execution then fine, but prime garp did not do that, when he clashed with chinjao, you saw him getting ready for the charge,  he had to use more strength to get the attack in to bend chinajo's head in,   You also saw this when Jinbei "blocked" big mom and right after she  simply overpowered him the panel after with her strength.

Once you start to draw in strength that isn't speed anymore, it a prioritization on power and this was prime garp,  I'm not going to expect better performance from old garp in quick execution,  that prime garp  had to prioritize strength to accomplish.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> All i said it wasn't garp's strongest punch.  Never said it wasn't a strong one.
> 
> Unless Garp can mountain bust from  quick execution then fine, but prime garp did not do that, when he clashed with chinjao, you saw him getting ready for the charge,  he had to use more strength to get the attack in to bend chinajo's head in,   You also saw this when Jinbei "blocked" big mom and right after she  simply overpowered him the panel after with her strength.
> 
> Once you start to draw in strength that isn't speed anymore, it a prioritization on power and this was prime garp,  I'm not going to expect better performance from old garp in quick execution,  that prime garp  had to prioritize strength to accomplish.


It does not matter what Garp's strongest punch is, Marco can easily take Island Level shots from scaling with characters like Sabo and he's been shown fighting Admirals easier than Sabo fought Fujitora. Marco is closer to the Yonkou power wise compared to Luffy and if you try to dispute that, you're just trying to be an obtuse moron, and I don't think you are. You really believe that that's fine. But in your same terms, Chinjao can cut continents in half, that should be superior to Island busting. Garp used the mountain training as a warm up for the fight rather than a method to get stronger, he was already capable of fighting characters on par with Roger, and characters on par with Roger should be Small Continent Level which is superior to Country+.

Marco is stronger than Country Level via scaling in the first place, there are numerous instances of him taking attacks from Admirals who have not been stated, shown or described as weaker than anyone less than Whitebeard because Whitebeard was the strongest character in the verse even while sick. He was also considered one of the people who could fight and defeat Blackbeard, despite losing, he has a reputation as a strong pirate and took attacks from such characters without issues.

If you're saying Marco is inferior Sabo, then you'd still be wrong as Marco still has better feats than Sabo does.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> It does not matter what Garp's strongest punch is, Marco can easily take Island Level shots from scaling with characters like Sabo and he's been shown fighting Admirals easier than Sabo fought Fujitora. Marco is closer to the Yonkou power wise compared to Luffy and if you try to dispute that, you're just trying to be an obtuse moron, and I don't think you are. You really believe that that's fine. But in your same terms, Chinjao can cut continents in half, that should be superior to Island busting. Garp used the mountain training as a warm up for the fight rather than a method to get stronger, he was already capable of fighting characters on par with Roger, and characters on par with Roger should be Small Continent Level which is superior to Country+.



I disagree, Garp used the mountain training specially for Chinajo, he had to make his haki stronger to take on that head and even then it still hurt garp and he  simply endured the pain.  Garp could have just focused on punching chinjao literally anywhere else and fucked him up  but garp simply did what he did to prove a point.

EDIT: By the way Roger nor garp is going to replicate chinjao's continent feet. Only Whitebeard because of his DF.




> Marco is stronger than Country Level via scaling in the first place, there are numerous instances of him taking attacks from Admirals who have not been stated, shown or described as weaker than anyone less than Whitebeard because Whitebeard was the strongest character in the verse even while sick. He was also considered one of the people who could fight and defeat Blackbeard, despite losing, he has a reputation as a strong pirate and took attacks from such characters without issues.



I only saw marco take a few lazers from kizaru and akainu's magma attack, none of the attacks we saw marco took was of the scale of their  more powerful attacks executed during that war. And i'm not too focused on the DF powers but rather the physical attacks

The only physical attack he took was from garp and he got knocked down.  Another strange one was squardo, he had to back away from the attack despite being in phoenix form.



> If you're saying Marco is inferior Sabo, then you'd still be wrong as Marco still has better feats than Sabo does.


You won't hear that from me.


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## Gomu (Apr 28, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I disagree, Garp used the mountain training specially for Chinajo, he had to make his haki stronger to take on that head and even then it still hurt garp and he  simply endured the pain.  Garp could have just focused on punching chinjao literally anywhere else and fucked him up  but garp simply did what he did to prove a point.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can disagree all you want, but he even states it as a warm up. He even states he did it "just before" fighting him. He wasn't learning to improve his haki that quickly. You're reading too much into the situation and nothing you state showcases that he did it to prove a point, he just wanted to beat Chinjao.

Whitebeard took those same attacks... He also inflicted blows on Admirals the same way they did to him. The DF powers are what make up their attacks, in this case, you have to focus on both, particularly when he can literally take on one of the strongest destructive DFs in the verse and not be discomforted and even while knowing Blackbeard had the strongest destructive fruit, still went on fighting him without a second thought.

*Spoiler*: __ 








Squard was actually a respected captain in Whitebeard's crew who he wanted to call to be the one that led the charge, so that means he's not fodder, btw.

*Spoiler*: __ 











Squardo was both respected by Whitebeard and managed to react to being held down by Marco, two respected men in the One Piece World, he's not fodder, we just don't know that much about him like most of WB's men.

* Further more, what are you talking about in "can't replicate that feat" that would mean that they should lose every clash against WB, and WB was using his full strength when doing the Advanced Buso slash with Roger, and Roger was easily able to counter it. So I don't know how you think that holds up. Also Squardo attacked him when he [Marco] was normal.

Attack Potency has nothing to do with AOE, if you can hurt a character that can tank something, your attack must have that AP, that's been a thing since Character debating got a foundation.


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## Canute87 (Apr 28, 2020)

Gomu said:


> You can disagree all you want, but he even states it as a warm up. He even states he did it "just before" fighting him. *He wasn't learning to improve his haki that quickly. *You're reading too much into the situation and nothing you state showcases that he did it to prove a point, he just wanted to beat Chinjao.


Could have taken a day or more, Luffy learned future sight from nothing in  in a  few hours.



> Whitebeard took those same attacks... He also inflicted blows on Admirals the same way they did to him. The DF powers are what make up their attacks, in this case, you have to focus on both, particularly when he can literally take on one of the strongest destructive DFs in the verse and not be discomforted and even while knowing Blackbeard had the strongest destructive fruit, still went on fighting him without a second thought.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



Marco  lost miserably.



> Squard was actually a respected captain in Whitebeard's crew who he wanted to call to be the one that led the charge, so that means he's not fodder, btw.
> 
> *Spoiler*: __



There's no point trying to hype squardo here, he's inferior to the top commanders.



> Squardo was both respected by Whitebeard and managed to react to being held down by Marco, two respected men in the One Piece World, he's not fodder, we just don't know that much about him like most of WB's men.



Or marco isn't THAT physical strong or at the very least doesn't know basic submission techniques,  he was trying to hold him down with one arm and Squardo was on his knees  with his arms still free and thus could easily come out of that.



> * Further more, what are you talking about in "can't replicate that feat" that would mean that they should lose every clash against WB, and WB was using his full strength when doing the Advanced Buso slash with Roger, and Roger was easily able to counter it. So I don't know how you think that holds up. Also Squardo attacked him when he [Marco] was normal.





Chinjao's head is quite an enigma, kaidou fell from 1000's of feet in the air and only left a crater in his size, chinjao was only a few feet and when he fell and destroyed the arena without actively trying to attack it.  Basically what i mean is they can destroy chinjao's head without replicating his destructive feats .   Chinjao's head was still tough after losing the pointed edge as he took Cavendish's sword literally head on. So it's the force of impact that is what needs to be endured.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Also that "Just Now" Might be a mistranslation.  Checked another and this was said

Flashback!Garp: Oi, Chinjao. Today's the day I'm going to finally crack that head of yours in two. / *I've prepared myself by smashing eight mountains to pieces with my bare fists!!*

So not sure who's accurate.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Could have taken a day or more, Luffy learned future sight from nothing in  in a  few hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Didn't say anything about Luffy learning about Haki in a few hours, I stated that just because Luffy learned that Haki doesn't mean his physical abilities are on par with Marco's. We also don't know what these characters can do with Haki, Marco is the second to the universes literal strongest man, he could also know those two hakis but still have lost to Blackbeard because he was too powerful or he underestimated him.

Also towards the Haki comment. Luffy was trying to enforce as much Haki into his hands while blocking her as possible and got knocked away by a Haki-less Big Mom. Physical Abilities still count in the struggle, you have to be of a similar level in Busoshoku for it to matter.

So what if he lost miserably? The war was lost miserably, we don't even know what happened.

You can be inferior and still capable of damaging someone. Luffy should not have been able to beat Katakuri, nor hurt him before his fight and there were times when Luffy literally should have lost, moreso than Luffy was beating Katakuri, at that. Katakuri lost because he fell towards Luffy's determination, not his might.

Kicking away an Admiral is a feat. Stop trying to dress it as if it isn't. Kicking away two Admirals is an even bigger feat. Taking attacks from an Admiral, is still a feat. Just because you have regen doesn't mean you don't have to be capable of enduring blows, Marco still has to be able to tank damage and heal himself. That means if the blow is too strong, he loses consciousness and cannot heal similar to how Kaido hit Luffy once and he was unconscious.

Towards the comment on Squardo. It doesn't matter. He reacted instantly to being held down, he snuck a hit in on a Top Tier. he can be less than Top Tiers but still be capable as a fighter. It's been shown multiple times, I just gave you one with Katakuri and Luffy.

My guy, I'm talking about Prime Chinjao. You need to find where he stated he was training his Haki and not just warming up because as you consider "well he was performing a speed attack" as the reason why his strike didn't make Marco fall unconscious, I can state that he was just warming up. That's why you don't want to do that shit because people can cherry-pick what they think and not use what information is right in front of them. If you can find a translation that states "I was training my Haki to beat you" I'll concede that point.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Didn't say anything about Luffy learning about Haki in a few hours, I stated that just because Luffy learned that Haki doesn't mean his physical abilities are on par with Marco's. We also don't know what these characters can do with Haki, Marco is the second to the universes literal strongest man, he could also know those two hakis but still have lost to Blackbeard because he was too powerful or he underestimated him.
> 
> Also towards the Haki comment. Luffy was trying to enforce as much Haki into his hands while blocking her as possible and got knocked away by a Haki-less Big Mom. Physical Abilities still count in the struggle, you have to be of a similar level in Busoshoku for it to matter.


I was just pointing out it doesn't take long to improve, so even the "just now" business to garp doesn't discredit he could have improved in haki in that time because luffy learned something significant in a few hours. 



> So what if he lost miserably? The war was lost miserably, we don't even know what happened.



Oda spared no effort to inform his readers on *multiple *occasions that it was an overwhelming defeat.  There's nothing more that needs to be said, the WB remnants were NO match for Blackbeard pirates.



> You can be inferior and still capable of damaging someone. Luffy should not have been able to beat Katakuri, nor hurt him before his fight and there were times when Luffy literally should have lost, moreso than Luffy was beating Katakuri, at that. Katakuri lost because he fell towards Luffy's determination, not his might.



Plot not helping squardo like it did luffy's ass.



> Kicking away an Admiral is a feat. Stop trying to dress it as if it isn't. Kicking away two Admirals is an even bigger feat. Taking attacks from an Admiral, is still a feat. Just because you have regen doesn't mean you don't have to be capable of enduring blows, Marco still has to be able to tank damage and heal himself. That means if the blow is too strong, he loses consciousness and cannot heal similar to how Kaido hit Luffy once and he was unconscious.


Zoro also pushed fujitora back WHILE under the effect of gravity and Luffy did so too with a G3.  Those are quite impressive feats too. 
I'm sure marco can endure blows as evident with garp, i I was pointing out that he can't ignore them and if kaidou ....KAIDOU is getting hurt then marco is getting hurt

for the record nobody ( or at least i don't) thinks luffy can beat marco until we see how he fairs this arc against kaidou, But i think the general consensus is that it's wano luffy we are talking about.



> Towards the comment on Squardo. It doesn't matter. He reacted instantly to being held down, he snuck a hit in on a Top Tier. he can be less than Top Tiers but still be capable as a fighter. It's been shown multiple times, I just gave you one with Katakuri and


There's nothing to sneak , squardo wasn't flat on the ground or had his hand subdued, There was nothing impressive about what squardo did. The only concern there is why a sword would be so effective against him when light beams and magma are not.  Garp is one thing but you can't make a case for squardo here, i mean  this is where this  debate all started.



> My guy, I'm talking about Prime Chinjao. You need to find where he stated he was training his Haki and not just warming up because as you consider "well he was performing a speed attack" as the reason why his strike didn't make Marco fall unconscious, I can state that he was just warming up. That's why you don't want to do that shit because people can cherry-pick what they think and not use what information is right in front of them. If you can find a translation that states "I was training my Haki to beat you" I'll concede that point.



One translation said he was preparing, preparing can mean anything, point is he had to do that before taking on chinjao, maybe it made him stronger or it brought it up to maximum efficiency, there's more than one way to interpret that

BUT  seeing that i saw luffy constantly destroying trees while TRAINING his new COA haki I'm just going to draw the parallel there. 

There is not one fight  in this series that has people practicing before engaging if they aren't making an attempt to improve something.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I was just pointing out it doesn't take long to improve, so even the "just now" business to garp doesn't discredit he could have improved in haki in that time because luffy learned something significant in a few hours.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No, Rayleigh stated Haki blooms in times of stress better than training. As seen by Luffy and Ussop, actually.

We don't know what happened, again. "Overwhelming defeat" could mean a lot of things and we don't know how Blackbeard performed the task. Blackbeard has no problem sneak attacking or placing traps to make prey easier to get. Blackbeard is an intelligent pirate in planning, we've seen that. The reason his crew got stronger is that he planned well. He again, also has the strongest fruit in the world now, thus one of the strongest APs in the universe.

That doesn't even matter, I don't even know why you bring it up.

Zoro didn't push back Fujitora, Fujitora blocked his slash, it can send him however far it needs to, but Fuji had no problem dealing with it.

Kaido is once again, the exception, not the rule in terms of durability. So is Big Mom.

 They've been stating it this entire damn debate, dude. That Marco is weaker than Luffy, look at the poll, lol.

Preparing can just mean warming up, considering for most fights that are expected, you usually prepare yourself in some way, whether mentally and/or physically... Luffy was doing that for Kaido for two days, same with Zoro. 

Again, Garp at this point, was already fighting Roger who was considered a beast...


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> No, Rayleigh stated Haki blooms in times of stress better than training. As seen by Luffy and Ussop, actually.


Well i guess garp knew he was going to fight chinjao so that helped. 



> We don't know what happened, again. "Overwhelming defeat" could mean a lot of things and we don't know how Blackbeard performed the task. Blackbeard has no problem sneak attacking or placing traps to make prey easier to get. Blackbeard is an intelligent pirate in planning, we've seen that. The reason his crew got stronger is that he planned well. He again, also has the strongest fruit in the world now, thus one of the strongest APs in the universe.



Blackbeard and Marco were in territory they knew so there was no territorial advantage. Blackbeard planned and got strong enough to the point where the WB pirate remnants got shit on.  BB doesn't lay traps and all that crap.  Once he has power he engages fully. He fought ace head on and sengoku and Garp head on.  



> Zoro didn't push back Fujitora, Fujitora blocked his slash, it can send him however far it needs to, but Fuji had no problem dealing with it.



Maybe he had no problems but Zoro still managed to do something under those circumstances and fujitora switched to defense.

It was still something powerful to block and he wasn't non-nonchalant about the attack.



> Kaido is once again, the exception, not the rule in terms of durability. So is Big Mom.


That is why if Luffy can hurt him he can hurt marco it's one hell of a proxy that the creature who apparently can't can actually die.



> They've been stating it this entire damn debate, dude. That Marco is weaker than Luffy, look at the poll, lol.


Oh?  wow i mean i understand wanting to believe it after wano arc but before?  Rather strange.



> Preparing can just mean warming up, considering for most fights that are expected, you usually prepare yourself in some way, whether mentally and/or physically... Luffy was doing that for Kaido for two days, same with Zoro.



Luffy was training his haki and zoro his new sword.



> Again, Garp at this point, was already fighting Roger who was considered a beast...


Roger doesn't have a head as hard as chinjao.  This whole fight was about the head, nowhere else.  Garp can hit chinjao in the face stomach and easily dispatch of him, that simply wasn't the point of the fight.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Well i guess garp knew he was going to fight chinjao so that helped.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Whatever you say.

Ace would love to say hello to you, his entire plan was to either beat Ace or get Luffy which he told Luffy in Impel Down, killing Thatch he knew that Ace would come after him, it's why he made a backup just in case to go after Luffy if Ace didn't come after Thatch was killed.

That's more applause for Zoro then for Fujitora, Marco wouldn't beat an Admiral, but he can fight one. What's your point, we already know he's weaker than them, the fact that he can fight an Admiral and they take him seriously is feat enough.

Pretty sure that unless you can find feats of Luffy being able to actually hurt let alone defeat Admiral/Yonkou Class opponents, it doesn't matter. Luffy still loses until headcanon turns into actual canon. Marco has the physical advantage and the regeneration, Luffy's not beating him any time soon, especially considering a similar opponent in Doflamingo and  Big Mom (who took a Buraikan headon and was only momentarily stunned) weren't affected by internal attacks so greatly. Doflamingo still held the advantage after Gamma Knife and Big Mom took it and then came back. I stated this in a post before, internal attacks are more likely to cause damage, but that's a long way of killing a Yonkou/Admiral and we don't know the full extent of Marco's Haki because these concepts weren't even invented until the Time Skip.

They are talking about headcanon and Luffy's potential now. I don't even understand this shit, it's like saying "could Seiya from Saint Seiya beat a God with his God Cloth when he just got it and didn't actually use it yet". There is always a potential something, that's called story telling and set-up, they think Luffy, right now, can beat Marco. Marco the one who could fight the Admirals and Luffy who's still weaker than Sabo, can win that fight.

That's called training your body. Busoshoku is exuded to make physical attacks stronger as well as unleash haki in different forms, it still needs to be exuded at muscle memory, muscle memory is gained from training the body to adapt the experience. Both of them needed to train their bodies to deal with the strain of their new powers. There was nothing state Garp needed said training, he just wanted to warm up before fighting until you can show he was training his haki.

Roger doesn't need a head as hard as Chinjao. Are you saying that Roger, the strongest pirate equal to Whitebeard in terms of relative power, would have lost to Chinjao?


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## Red Admiral (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Can you explain why?



well now that the war is on the edge ... it means Luffy training for CoA is over

Luffy have better physical power
Luffy have better CoA
Luffy have better CoO
Luffy have better Speed 

=> Luffy have better over all offensive power


Marco have far better durability
Marco have far better endurance

but he lack the speed nor strength to beat Luffy ... who have a massive endurance of his own


the fight gonna be long ... but Luffy wins now 

p.s

before the war my vote was Marco ... the gap is not big ... but I assume it's on the table now


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Red Admiral said:


> well now that the war is on the edge ... it means Luffy training for CoA is over
> 
> Luffy have better physical power
> Luffy have better CoA
> ...


Except it's not over, and once again, we don't know the effects of using this Haki, it's only implied to give him an advantage, your headcanon is telling you it will be enough. Luffy's physicals and haki have not grown strong enough to deal with Big Mom without Haki after the fact that he'd been training for two weeks, the Busoshoku training has only been for two days. Pretty sure Big Mom still wins.

Marco - Fought and stalemated Admirals. Something Luffy has never done.
Marco - Fought and could strike Admirals who seem to have strong control over Haki not being as effective as it should as shown when Marco kicks Kizaru, Aokiji and Akainu states how annoying dealing with Haki users is despite taking less damage than he would have from Vista and Marco.
Marco - We don't know how effective his CoO is, but he consistently keeps up with characters like Kizaru who is one of the fastest characters in the series.
Marco - Again can keep up with Kizaru effortlessly, blocks his attacks from hitting Whitebeard, and then blitzes him and kicks him into the ground. Kizaru gives him the same treatment in kind, but this shows that they are able to stalemate one another.

Marco's kicks are enough to beat away an Admiral, something again Luffy hasn't shown, even when fighting Fujitora, he was easily repelling away Luffy's G3 strikes despite the mass and the force behind blows from Luffy, keep in mind Doflamingo never states that Luffy's G3 blows are too weak, but that they are "too slow".

If Marco kicks Luffy a few times, he's done. Marco is superior to Doflamingo in every way. That "massive endurance" doesn't mean anything if Marco is faster and he can't hit him. Marco =/= Katakuri, who Luffy did not defeat with power but with willpower. If that was a real battle, Luffy would have died and he's not so much stronger after that fight compared to now.

You gotta show me where you get this confidence in Luffy from right now. Just because his haki training is over, doesn't mean he's automatically a Mid-Top Tier. Right now he's literally Commander Level, which is Low Top Tier. And he still has trouble against characters like Queen, and two days won't change that.

You need to show me how this gap closed, seriously. We don't even know if this ability will work effectively, you're basing this off fanboying and headcanon.


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## Sherlōck (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> One punch from Garp seemed to do the trick.
> 
> If luffy is hurting Kaidou,  he's hurting Marco.



And Marco recovered from that.

It's not that I am saying Luffy can't hurt Marco rather Marco can take whatever Luffy throws at him and Luffy will be the one to go down first cause his haki will run out.


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## Corax (Apr 29, 2020)

Problem with Marco is that he can regenerate. How much his innards will be hurt by advanced CoA is irrelevant. The only way Luffy can take him down is if his stamina/haki pool is>Marco's. Which is hard to compare. As his  best stamina feat to date is 13 hours long fight vs Kata. Marco's is 3 day fight vs Roger's pirates. But it wasn't a serious death match so again hard to compare them.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Whatever you say.
> 
> Ace would love to say hello to you, his entire plan was to either beat Ace or get Luffy which he told Luffy in Impel Down, killing Thatch he knew that Ace would come after him, it's why he made a backup just in case to go after Luffy if Ace didn't come after Thatch was killed.



Killing Thatch wasn't for Ace, getting the fruit was priority, he needed luffy to become a shichibukai but ace tracked him then they engaged.



> That's more applause for Zoro then for Fujitora, Marco wouldn't beat an Admiral, but he can fight one. What's your point, we already know he's weaker than them, the fact that he can fight an Admiral and they take him seriously is feat enough.



I only care that luffy can hurt him.



> Pretty sure that unless you can find feats of Luffy being able to actually hurt let alone defeat Admiral/Yonkou Class opponents, it doesn't matter. Luffy still loses until headcanon turns into actual canon. Marco has the physical advantage and the regeneration, Luffy's not beating him any time soon, especially considering a similar opponent in Doflamingo and  Big Mom (who took a Buraikan headon and was only momentarily stunned) weren't affected by internal attacks so greatly. Doflamingo still held the advantage after Gamma Knife and Big Mom took it and then came back. I stated this in a post before, internal attacks are more likely to cause damage, but that's a long way of killing a Yonkou/Admiral and we don't know the full extent of Marco's Haki because these concepts weren't even invented until the Time Skip.



Yeah you're right, folks are treating luffy gaining that ability as some epic game changer for some reason.



> That's called training your body. Busoshoku is exuded to make physical attacks stronger as well as unleash haki in different forms, it still needs to be exuded at muscle memory, muscle memory is gained from training the body to adapt the experience. Both of them needed to train their bodies to deal with the strain of their new powers. There was nothing state Garp needed said training, he just wanted to warm up before fighting until you can show he was training his haki.




This translation mentioned Garp trained to strenghten his haki.  I'm not sure which translation is right from which is wrong.

link removed


But that aside, given that Garp traveled from a location separate from where he met chinjao does not indicate that what garp did was done in a short space of time, the distance traveled does not make sense as a warm up if he's going to engage chinjao hours after he completed that task. I'm going to assume it took hours because their are dozens of marine ships from both ends.

But apart from all of that is a dynamic you suggesting  that simply does not exists in this series.  Nobody warms up their haki. Nobody warms up in this series before fighting. 




> Roger doesn't need a head as hard as Chinjao. Are you saying that Roger, the strongest pirate equal to Whitebeard in terms of relative power, would have lost to Chinjao?



Roger has stronger haki than chinjao he would have dented his head in as well.  But chinjao is capable of more destruction than Roger,


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> Killing Thatch wasn't for Ace, getting the fruit was priority, he needed luffy to become a shichibukai but ace tracked him then they engaged.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


_link removed_

Yet you don't seem to care that Marco can not only deal with it, as everyone who has had to deal with internal attacks has got out of it rather easily, and Kaido if he's the enduring man that he's thought to be, should be able to do the same. Marco has a way to not only counter it, but also is a stronger character. In any other situation of a battle, regeneration, and how much he can regenerate would be a clear advantage. Being able to hit him internally (Ryuo does not strengthen your Busoshoku, it only allows you to exude your haki, the relative training will strengthen it because it's a manner of control but if it's learned, it won't make you stronger if it was already there, it'll give an advantage but in a similar method, you'd still need an overall stronger haki to deal with other characters who have a stronger haki or physicality, like Marco) doesn't mean much other than now you can potentially hurt him. Until Luffy can actually punch without Ryuo (as it does not appear that Oden needed Ryuo to harm him, Ryuo was not a crutch for his twin slashes) he won't be strong enough on his own to fight him, or most likely any other Yonkou. Guess who can though. Marco.

That doesn't matter to me as long as someone gets it. Gear 4th is a unique ability, but Luffy still has rivals for a reason. One day they will catch up and have to fight him and they will have to deal with him, just as he will have to deal with them. If Luffy has no equals then the story stops being interesting and I'm pretty sure Oda wants to keep the Supernova/Worst Generation ideal as strong as possible, which is why he was showing Kidd performing just as well as Luffy in the Wano Prison.

Your link doesn't work due to Blocked domain: _link removed_ - Here's another translation, again, nothing about haki.

It doesn't matter because they'd already planned to fight one another. Meaning it had to be sooner rather than later.

It doesn't matter how much destruction one can inflict if you can strike with enough force to counter it. Roger had fights with WB who has some of the largest destructive feats in the series, today. As in characters still haven't shown more power than WB has, not even Gear 4th Luffy's King Kong Gun. That's what WB was facing all the time, and there's nothing to state that he was holding back his strength against Roger as that would not make sense.

*The one I posted is the viz btw.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> link removed
> 
> Yet you don't seem to care that Marco can not only deal with it, as everyone who has had to deal with internal attacks has got out of it rather easily, and Kaido if he's the enduring man that he's thought to be, should be able to do the same. Marco has a way to not only counter it, but also is a stronger character. In any other situation of a battle, regeneration, and how much he can regenerate would be a clear advantage. Being able to hit him internally (Ryuo does not strengthen your Busoshoku, it only allows you to exude your haki, the relative training will strengthen it because it's a manner of control but if it's learned, it won't make you stronger if it was already there, it'll give an advantage but in a similar method, you'd still need an overall stronger haki to deal with other characters who have a stronger haki or physicality, like Marco) doesn't mean much other than now you can potentially hurt him. Until Luffy can actually punch without Ryuo (as it does not appear that Oden needed Ryuo to harm him, Ryuo was not a crutch for his twin slashes) he won't be strong enough on his own to fight him, or most likely any other Yonkou. Guess who can though. Marco.



....Okay.




> Your link doesn't work due to Blocked domain: link removed - Here's another translation, again, nothing about haki.
> 
> It doesn't matter because they'd already planned to fight one another. Meaning it had to be sooner rather than later.
> *The one I posted is the viz btw



If it took hours or days it goes right in line with the notion of training, That meeting clearly wasn't by chance and was a planned encounter at some point so Garp made sure he prepared. Warming up isn't  preparation and to cause that much destruction for the purpose of warming up doesn't add up when nobody does that in this series. Everybody just engages.

That WB and Roger clash wasn't met with any preparation unless you think the marines Roger beat the shit out of was enough warmup for a clash with Whitebeard of all people.

Some people have mentioned Viz isn't always accurate. So the translation arguments simply won't bear any fruit, i don't like basing arguments around  translations for that reason



> It doesn't matter how much destruction one can inflict if you can strike with enough force to counter it. Roger had fights with WB who has some of the largest destructive feats in the series, today. As in characters still haven't shown more power than WB has, not even Gear 4th Luffy's King Kong Gun. That's what WB was facing all the time, and there's nothing to state that he was holding back his strength against Roger as that would not make sense.



It's more along the lines of hardness. It's tricky to explain but  Garp was coming at chinjao with a harder substance There's clearly a separation between the force generated and the material that does it .  Garp didn't exactly beat chinjao's attack but rather chinjao's hardness, WB can generate sheer destruction at the same time he's skin and bone so they are a separate entity.

Also on the notion of the Quake fruit I have some uncertainties with it,  As long as you can deal with Whitebeard's raw strength and haki, that fruit shouldn't be a problem, The quake is more along the lines of shockwave rather than sheer force so it's not adding to WB's physical attributes

Basically the attack isn't "heavier" and doesn't require more raw strength to deal with.


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## Rasendori (Apr 29, 2020)

Damn, I remember having a similar debate with @Canute87 back in the day. 

Still can't wait to revive that thread when Oda cements Marco to be colored trio admiral level.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> ....Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay.

It was planned, we don't know when, OK. But we do know that 30 years before the modern era, Roger and Garp were already rivals. Then why bring up translations. I only stated it because it seemed like he was readily preparing for their matchup. You're the one that started stating translations, so I don't get what you needed to find another translation for. They were preparing, but we know from every translation, there was nothing about haki. If you want, you can showcase the picture through the image instead of a link to the site.

No, because that's not how Haki works. You can have a stronger haki but lack sufficient strength and still be overcame by sheer physicality. I can guarantee that at the point of using G4, Luffy wasn't superior in Haki compared to Doflamingo. The superiority probably comes from Luffy using his DF to improve his strength, Doffy's bullets even broke through Luffy's Haki and Luffy still won thanks to sheer physicality. Garp again, is one of the physically strongest characters in the series, and you still need that even with Busoshoku, which is why I complain every time I hear "lol, Luffy has Advanced Armament so he beats Marco", nothing in the series points to just having Advanced Haki being good, it's a supplement it's not the method. You still need to be physically superior, and as I said, right now, Marco has better physical feats.

No, because the Quake bubble is literally the epicenter of his attacks, even when using it on John Giant, Akainu and Blackbeard, the shockwaves come from inside then out. It takes no effort to supplement his strikes with both haki and quake enhancements. He wouldn't be using it to STRIKE something if it didn't enhance the force of his strike. He strikes Akainu with a backhand shot with Quake Enhancement for his most destructive blow seen. You're not making sense and it sounds like you're cherry-picking again.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Okay.
> 
> It was planned, we don't know when, OK. But we do know that 30 years before the modern era, Roger and Garp were already rivals. Then why bring up translations. I only stated it because it seemed like he was readily preparing for their matchup. You're the one that started stating translations, so I don't get what you needed to find another translation for. They were preparing, but we know from every translation, there was nothing about haki. If you want, you can showcase the picture through the image instead of a link to the site.



I think the whole point is preparation suggests time, There were multiple marine battleships there as well as chinjao's army, so we can agree there was plan of  engagement, it wasn't random.  Warmup is not preparation, Grinding eight mountains is excessive,That can't be considered a warm up because nobody has done anything to that extent in this series.''

Roger and Whitebeard didn't do anything significant before fighting for three days, Big Mom and kaidou was just eating and drinking and they engaged. Warming up is just not a thing 

Roger doesn't have a head as tough as chinjao, Do you believe you HAVE to attack chinjao's head to beat him?  Garp could have done exactly what sai did and punch his head to the side, but that wasn't not the point of what garp did, the man wanted to test chinjao's best weapon head on.

I read some other things going forward in that chapter but  chinjao's words doesn't make sense, I'll drop the translation it was a poor argument to use in the first place.



> No, because that's not how Haki works. You can have a stronger haki but lack sufficient strength and still be overcame by sheer physicality. I can guarantee that at the point of using G4, Luffy wasn't superior in Haki compared to Doflamingo. The superiority probably comes from Luffy using his DF to improve his strength, Doffy's bullets even broke through Luffy's Haki and Luffy still won thanks to sheer physicality. Garp again, is one of the physically strongest characters in the series, and you still need that even with Busoshoku, which is why I complain every time I hear "lol, Luffy has Advanced Armament so he beats Marco", nothing in the series points to just having Advanced Haki being good, it's a supplement it's not the method. You still need to be physically superior, and as I said, right now, Marco has better physical feats.





> No, because the Quake bubble is literally the epicenter of his attacks, even when using it on John Giant, Akainu and Blackbeard, the shockwaves come from inside then out. It takes no effort to supplement his strikes with both haki and quake enhancements. He wouldn't be using it to STRIKE something if it didn't enhance the force of his strike. He strikes Akainu with a backhand shot with Quake Enhancement for his most destructive blow seen. You're not making sense and it sounds like you're cherry-picking again.



The attack doesn't *push* anybody back, when John Giant got hit with the attack he wasn't forced back, He simply fell to the ground while the environment collapsed behind him,  

The attack that forced akainu to the ground was wrapped around WB's fists this THAT had pushing power and force behind it, Notice the bubble was still there, The second attack had the cracking animation,  WB destroyed the environment around him before akainu even fell to the ground in the second attack.

One the haki is strong enough to protect against the attack then it's not a major issue, the more problematic issue is Whitebeard's own physical power and haki which is what can force through a barrier because there is more force. 

The attack is powerful but it isn't heavy, Hence why Roger was able to fight against that power.  Roger's haki would have to be broken by WB using sheer force of his own, but that comes from his own raw strength.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I think the whole point is preparation suggests time, There were multiple marine battleships there as well as chinjao's army, so we can agree there was plan of  engagement, it wasn't random.  Warmup is not preparation, Grinding eight mountains is excessive,That can't be considered a warm up because nobody has done anything to that extent in this series.''
> 
> Roger and Whitebeard didn't do anything significant before fighting for three days, Big Mom and kaidou was just eating and drinking and they engaged. Warming up is just not a thing
> 
> ...


I don't understand why such a little thing affects this conversation, you need to be able to prove he was training primarily his Haki. Roger was already strong 30 years before.

It has nothing to do with that. Garp was aiming to break his head. And that doesn't matter anyway because Garp's physical strength would still need to be up to par for striking the head of a guy who can split a continent... Busoshoku complements one's power, it doesn't suddenly give them sheer physical strength, Luffy uses it to give benefits to his Rubber such as making its elasticity more rigid to give it more explosive power, otherwise, it'd be a glorified Gear 3rd strike.

Thank you.

My guy, why would he use the technique if it wasn't to compliment his physical power... Or add something to it.

It doesn't matter, as he's using it to enhance the destructive force of his blow.

No, it just means Roger is one of these strongest characters in the series and he could do the impossible and fight a man lamented as the strongest in the One Piece Universe.

The energy releases from the bubble and expands outward, otherwise, there would be no quakes, no shockwaves. But that doesn't matter anyway.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I don't understand why such a little thing affects this conversation, you need to be able to prove he was training primarily his Haki. Roger was already strong 30 years before.


I don't know how to prove otherwise that the man who only has haki in his arsenal was training haki when he was pulverizing 8 mountains and the only thing he did when facing chainjao was to punch him with his haki.

Roger is strong, but you're going to have characters that are going to surpass him in some aspects.  The notion that Garp cannot improve because he was fighting roger few of the times in his career is not the right approach.  Garp obviously fought many pirates to improve his power and engaged in many challenges.  Roger is not the sole reason for Garp's strength



> It has nothing to do with that. Garp was aiming to break his head. And that doesn't matter anyway because Garp's physical strength would still need to be up to par for striking the head of a guy who can split a continent... Busoshoku complements one's power, it doesn't suddenly give them sheer physical strength, Luffy uses it to give benefits to his Rubber such as making its elasticity more rigid to give it more explosive power, otherwise, it'd be a glorified Gear 3rd strike.



Garp's Haki still needed to be strong otherwise chinjao would have broken it. It's Armour, it's meant to protect as well as attack.



> My guy, why would he use the technique if it wasn't to compliment his physical power... Or add something to it.



The  benefit of triggering powerful attacks with minimal effort.  



> It doesn't matter, as he's using it to enhance the destructive force of his blow.
> 
> No, it just means Roger is one of these strongest characters in the series and he could do the impossible and fight a man lamented as the strongest in the One Piece Universe.
> 
> The energy releases from the bubble and expands outward, otherwise, there would be no quakes, no shockwaves. But that doesn't matter anyway.



Whitebeard's physical strength was out of this world, He and Roger  have  bar none the BEST haki clash shown as well him and Roger match equally in that regard. Roger could not be fighting that PLUS added force and come out equal,

A person can't be equal to someone in *raw strength *and* then *equal to that person's *raw strength + DF* if the DF supplements their physical strength and improves their attack. That doesn't make sense, It's only if person could effectively neutralize the person with the DF, Well unless Roger was countering WB's quakes with Sword Techniques.


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> I don't know how to prove otherwise that the man who only has haki in his arsenal was training haki when he was pulverizing 8 mountains and the only thing he did when facing chainjao was to punch him with his haki.
> 
> Roger is strong, but you're going to have characters that are going to surpass him in some aspects.  The notion that Garp cannot improve because he was fighting roger few of the times in his career is not the right approach.  Garp obviously fought many pirates to improve his power and engaged in many challenges.  Roger is not the sole reason for Garp's strength
> 
> ...


Except I'm not saying he couldn't improve, I'm saying he's already fighting the top tier in the verse and cornering him. While Chinjao was strong, he wasn't considered one of the "Legendary Figures" from Rogers' era.

All I'm asking for is where you're getting the haki training from.

But that's your headcanon. You can't say when an attack is strong or not, especially when it's an all-out war. Whitebeard uses the Quake Fruit to compliment his attacks. Everything else you're saying is from your own processing of the situation, not the basis for what's actually happening.

You're saying that from your headcanon. And we're running in circles here... There's nothing to show or state that Roger would have had any more difficulty fighting WB while he was using his Quake powers. You have to show proof of that because it's stated that Roger was one of the strongest rivals to WB bar none. You have to prove against that. There's no reason to think WB would not go full power against Roger. Prove that he can, do not use your perspective, use what's been given, and shown through Oda's conjecture and the conjecture of the panels. Either way, I'm done with this because we're running in circles.


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## Canute87 (Apr 29, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Except I'm not saying he couldn't improve, I'm saying he's already fighting the top tier in the verse and cornering him. While Chinjao was strong, he wasn't considered one of the "Legendary Figures" from Rogers' era.
> 
> All I'm asking for is where you're getting the haki training from.



One simple question.  Does Garp HAVE to to focus on top point of chinjao's head to beat him?





> But that's your headcanon. You can't say when an attack is strong or not, especially when it's an all-out war. Whitebeard uses the Quake Fruit to compliment his attacks. Everything else you're saying is from your own processing of the situation, not the basis for what's actually happening.
> 
> You're saying that from your headcanon. And we're running in circles here... There's nothing to show or state that Roger would have had any more difficulty fighting WB while he was using his Quake powers. You have to show proof of that because it's stated that Roger was one of the strongest rivals to WB bar none. You have to prove against that. There's no reason to think WB would not go full power against Roger. Prove that he can, do not use your perspective, use what's been given, and shown through Oda's conjecture and the conjecture of the panels. Either way, I'm done with this because we're running in circles.



The physical clash was dead equal. Pure strength and haki at that point.

 WB did not use quake powers at that point, If you believe using quake powers adds to  WB physical strength it doesn't explain why Roger was able to deal with both WB's raw strength (which he was equal with)  AND his powers.  The obvious thing here was that he was able to neutralize the Gura powers somehow.

How did he do that with haki if he was already even with whitebeard when he did not use the gura?


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## Gomu (Apr 29, 2020)

Canute87 said:


> One simple question.  Does Garp HAVE to to focus on top point of chinjao's head to beat him?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dude, it DOES NOT MATTER! Garp wanted to beat the part of Chinjao's head that he was most proud of, as shown with how they both talked about their "best traits", Garp's fists and Chinjao's head. It does not matter, the aspect brought up was about who could beat who at their specialty. It does not matter if the battle was about the fist, the head or the ass. Garp won.

But nothing in the series states that Roger was any less effective at beating Quake + Haki + Physical Strength. Nothing. Show proof if their was, please, that's all I ask you. I'm not being an asshole who's covering my eyes of what you're saying. I'm asking you to show proof because all we hear is "WB and Roger were the strongest rivals". That's it. You need to beat that by showing evidence to the contrary otherwise it's just your perspective, and everyone has their own perspective. In a debate "Fact" matters more than "Perspective".

Like I said, I'm done, figure it out yourself. I tried, we've been tug of warring too much, and while I respect your perspective, I can't respect that you're saying that your perspective is fact.


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## Beast (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Are you serious? So he came at Marco with a half-hearted attack? That's what you're telling me? Marco who is the second strongest in his crew got shafted by Garp despite Garp knowing he has regeneration and seeing what he did to Kizaru? You guys are crazy. He's in a war, he makes a proclamation that they have to go through him and he shows his seriousness by standing like a wall in front of them. There's even a shockwave at the lower right panel showcasing that the force of his strike was meant to be serious, along with how he shifts his weight in the punch. It's not like that "Fist of Love" blow that Garp gave to Luffy, there is no reason to think Garp wasn't going serious with that punch.


That he did, Garp was never meant to be apart of the war as Sengoku points out in that same panel, this is no more then Garp trying to show the world which side he picked, he wasn’t actually going to knock out or completely destroy someone coming to save his grandson, that’s like saying luffy actually managed to damage Garp in war. 

Garp was conflicted all throughout the war, in the same chapter he is sweating/ biting his teeth before jumping at Marco, but never dares stop anyone else. 

It’s a very wild claim to think that Garp went all out on his attack, though I do agree that it was no mountain buster, though Marco also has the feats to easily take city+ attacks as he showcased with the admirals.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> That he did, Garp was never meant to be apart of the war as Sengoku points out in that same panel, this is no more then Garp trying to show the world which side he picked, he wasn’t actually going to knock out or completely destroy someone coming to save his grandson, that’s like saying luffy actually managed to damage Garp in war.
> 
> Garp was conflicted all throughout the war, in the same chapter he is sweating/ biting his teeth before jumping at Marco, but never dares stop anyone else.
> 
> It’s a very wild claim to think that Garp went all out on his attack, though I do agree that it was no mountain buster, though Marco also has the feats to easily take city+ attacks as he showcased with the admirals.


But Garp has no ties to Marco, he wouldn't need to hold back against him. That would be one less person to deal with in the war. He's still a marine, his feelings for Luffy vs him using his strength against Marco are two different contexts. Marco is not his grandson for one thing.

Again, he was more conflicted about killing Ace, not about fighting against pirates. He would have done nothing if he wanted WB to win this war. He did something. You guys are using the wrong character direction to showcase why Garp wouldn't strike as hard as he could. Garp has nothing to do with Marco, he may have something to do with Whitebeard, but his biggest relationships shown thus far are with: Sengoku, Luffy, Roger, Ace and Sabo, who are relevant to the plot. Not Marco, unless you can show that.

*Forgot, Aokiji, he's also one of the people relevant to Garp.

Admirals should be Country Busters/Small Continent Level. They are on par with Yonkou. Nothing in the series showcases that they are lesser than Yonkou.


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## Beast (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> But Garp has no ties to Marco, he wouldn't need to hold back against him. That would be one less person to deal with in the war. He's still a marine, his feelings for Luffy vs him using his strength against Marco are two different contexts. Marco is not his grandson for one thing.
> 
> Again, he was more conflicted about killing Ace, not about fighting against pirates. He would have done nothing if he wanted WB to win this war. He did something. You guys are using the wrong character direction to showcase why Garp wouldn't strike as hard as he could. Garp has nothing to do with Marco, he may have something to do with Whitebeard, but his biggest relationships shown thus far are with: Sengoku, Luffy, Roger, Ace and Sabo, who are relevant to the plot. Not Marco, unless you can show that.
> 
> Admirals should be Country Busters/Small Continent Level. They are on par with Yonkou. Nothing in the series showcases that they are lesser than Yonkou.


He knows who Marco is, Marco is not a rookie, he has been sailing with WB for over 30 years. Marco not being his grandson is not the issue, but he is coming to SAVE Ace. Garp questioned and cried of why Ace and luffy chose the pirate life, taking Marco out of the picture is not any better then dooming his grandson more then he already was doomed. 


Garp was not going to kill Ace lol, did you not see his reaction at Akainu? Garp was not meant to get involved because that was his family, Sengoku didn’t not see any reason for him to even be there, he was more of a risk then anything but he showed his loyalty to an extent. Garp getting involved was to show his rresolve and again once he was went against Luffy, Harp was doing nothing more then sticking by his choices in life of being a marine. It was not about letting WB win the war, the war wasn’t the problem for Garp, Garp is not the most just man, trying to cleanse the world of evil pirates, that was never his gigg. Ace was the man in trusted to him and raised as he would his own (lol), in the same very panel of him sending Marco flying, Sengoku clearly says he was never meant to do that, he wasn’t even suppose to be spectating nevermind getting involved but that is the choice he made and many people both in OP world and this community don’t agree with his actions. His relationship with Ace Is precisely why he would not use all his strength. 

I don’t think the admirals are any less then the yonko, I pretty much agree with that, however I think the DC is only measured up to small island level, while WB alone is country level and continent level range, but that is WB who is the exception, who I would place only equal to Garp not the other yonko nor admirals, and I think that should speak for itself, has WB hit Marco with full strength he would more then just send him flying, which I think is the same for Garp.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Marco >= tanking feats then Kaidou; he no sold Admiral level attacks which I would say are >= G4 Luffy’s attacks on Kaidou. Phoenix and Dragon Fruits are equals. Both involve making the user nearly invulnerable and both are high class Mythic Zoan. Whether you think Kaidou is stronger or not; it’s not defensively; it would need to be offensively.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

MasterBeast said:


> He knows who Marco is, Marco is not a rookie, he has been sailing with WB for over 30 years. Marco not being his grandson is not the issue, but he is coming to SAVE Ace. Garp questioned and cried of why Ace and luffy chose the pirate life, taking Marco out of the picture is not any better then dooming his grandson more then he already was doomed.
> 
> 
> Garp was not going to kill Ace lol, did you not see his reaction at Akainu? Garp was not meant to get involved because that was his family, Sengoku didn’t not see any reason for him to even be there, he was more of a risk then anything but he showed his loyalty to an extent. Garp getting involved was to show his rresolve and again once he was went against Luffy, Harp was doing nothing more then sticking by his choices in life of being a marine. It was not about letting WB win the war, the war wasn’t the problem for Garp, Garp is not the most just man, trying to cleanse the world of evil pirates, that was never his gigg. Ace was the man in trusted to him and raised as he would his own (lol), in the same very panel of him sending Marco flying, Sengoku clearly says he was never meant to do that, he wasn’t even suppose to be spectating nevermind getting involved but that is the choice he made and many people both in OP world and this community don’t agree with his actions. His relationship with Ace Is precisely why he would not use all his strength.
> ...


Then he would have stopped it. You're not getting that. Garp is not the type of person to not do something with full force. For god sakes, he threw iron balls he couldn't have known Luffy would have escaped from in Water 7. The giant iron balls would have killed Luffy had Coup de Burst not been a thing. He's not going to hold back on Marco, whether it dooms Ace or not, he was lamenting on the fact that they'd done so, not on the fact that he had to go through with it, as they were pirates they had to deal with the consequences of their actions. Garp taking Luffy's punch was sentimentality, that had nothing to do with Marco otherwise he wouldn't have stopped Marco at all.



Garp doesn't need to kill Ace. He was angrier at how disrespectful Akainu was being towards Ace than the actual fact that he killed him. For example, are you forgetting that Garp almost allowed Ace to be killed via Sword Guillotine? He could not have known that Luffy had Conqueror's Haki. Garp was still by the post where Ace was stationed and yet did nothing. This was literally before the fact that Luffy was known to have Conqueror's he did not stop the actions of the Marines. You can't pick and choose when Garp reacts, he didn't want either Luffy or Ace to die, but that has nothing to do with Marco, if he didn't want it to happen he'd have stopped it himself, he'd have not stopped Marco from reaching Ace in the first place. Garp struck him with all his might, Marco is more durable than characters like Doflamingo so the impact wasn't nearly as strong, literally all there is to it. You have to find reasons, just as much to Garp's actions against the marines, to why Garp allowed the marines to continue because there's equal parts you guys seem to be missing.

No. They can take attacks from Whitebeard who the DC is accomplished from, and fight back against him with no issue. Aokiji more or less stalemated Akainu for 10 days showcasing he was on par with Akainu, Kizaru should be no weaker than the two of them either. They are considered the Strongest Weapons of the World Government and Marines, and characters like Kizaru and Akainu have no issue fighting against them. Whitebeard has always been an exception to the Yonkou, Big Mom didn't want to fight Whitebeard unless she had her Armada prepared, Kaido was stopped by Shanks, and Shanks was probably the Yonkou with the most respect for life who wished to avoid an unnecessary war as shown with his actions, and supposedly, though this is headcanon, why he met with the Elderly Stars.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Marco >= tanking feats then Kaidou; he no sold Admiral level attacks which I would say are >= G4 Luffy’s attacks on Kaidou. Phoenix and Dragon Fruits are equals. Both involve making the user nearly invulnerable and both are high class Mythic Zoan. Whether you think Kaidou is stronger or not; it’s not defensively; it would need to be offensively.


Now you're stretching it with this one. Though I respect you on what you've been stating. Kaidou should be more durable than Marco from the simple fact that Kaidou fighting against Blackbeard wouldn't be the same as Marco. The problem is, Marco isn't Yonkou level but close to it. He can fight with Yonkou/Admiral tier opponents but he's overall inferior to them. One day Luffy will surpass him as the story demands that Luffy does if he wants to achieve his dream or die, but Marco has no such motivation, he seems to wish to preserve the memory of Whitebeard moreso. Marco's feats, while impressive, showcases that his endurance isn't on that same level, Kaido's endurance should be more impressive comparatively.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Now you're stretching it with this one. Though I respect you on what you've been stating. Kaidou should be more durable than Marco from the simple fact that Kaidou fighting against Blackbeard wouldn't be the same as Marco. The problem is, Marco isn't Yonkou level but close to it. He can fight with Yonkou/Admiral tier opponents but he's overall inferior to them. One day Luffy will surpass him as the story demands that Luffy does if he wants to achieve his dream or die, but Marco has no such motivation, he seems to wish to preserve the memory of Whitebeard moreso. Marco's feats, while impressive, showcases that his endurance isn't on that same level, Kaido's endurance should be more impressive comparatively.


I don’t really see any evidence that Kaidou could not also loose to Teach

Kaidou main power is his durability/immortality granted to him by the Dragon DF; but if that can be overcome then he is beatable; that is specifically the reason Luffy is learned Advanced Haki; to counter Kaidou Fruit. Teach can counter his Fruit with the Yami Fruit; and definitely dish out enough damage to defeat Kaidou with the Gura Fruit. Teach also likely beat Marco for this exact same reason that he can negate his Phoenix Fruit with Yami and crush him with Gura Fruit.

As far as I’m concerned Kaidou is considered unbeatable 1v1 due to his fame and likely his DF being considered to make him indestructible. Which is likely due to the public being unaware of its potential weaknesses like Advanced CoA and DF nullification like Yami Fruit. Hence them believing that Enma is some like magic sword and only thing in existence that can wound Kaidou; when in reality it was more due to Oden’s CoA then the sword itself.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I don’t really see any evidence that Kaidou could not also loose to Teach
> 
> Kaidou main power is his durability/immortality granted to him by the Dragon DF; but if that can be overcome then he is beatable; that is specifically the reason Luffy is learned Advanced Haki; to counter Kaidou Fruit. Teach can counter his Fruit with the Yami Fruit; and definitely dish out enough damage to defeat Kaidou with the Gura Fruit. Teach also likely beat Marco for this exact same reason that he can negate his Phoenix Fruit with Yami and crush him with Gura Fruit.
> 
> As far as I’m concerned Kaidou is considered unbeatable 1v1 due to his fame and likely his DF being considered to make him indestructible. Which is likely due to the public being unaware of its potential weaknesses like Advanced CoA and DF nullification like Yami Fruit.


It's not that Kaidou could not also lose to Teach, it's that you need a character who's Yonkou/Admiral Tier to avidly fight another Yonkou. Teach probably cemented Yonkou-Level over the time skip, though technically he already had the fighting skills to land a blow against Shanks, the same Shanks who can fight characters like Mihawk before this. That already made Blackbeard exceptionally strong just from that fact. Kaidou is a Yonkou, no matter how much you wish to discount it, he should be capable of performing feats that Marco can't perform, not just stalemating, but actually killing characters akin to his level.

He doesn't have immortality, he has invulnerability. I don't know why people are calling what he's dealt with immortality. Marco's regeneration also has a limit. The fruit giving him Immortality is headcanon, there is nothing in the story to state he gets his invulnerability from his fruit, especially considering he was damaged in his Dragon Form.

You can have that assumption, just don't bring it as fact here.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> It's not that Kaidou could not also loose to Teach, it's that you need a character who's Yonkou/Admiral Tier to avidly fight another Yonkou. Teach probably cemented Yonkou-Level over the time skip, though technically he already had the fighting skills to land a blow against Shanks, the same Shanks who can fight characters like Mihawk before this. That already made Blackbeard exceptionally strong just from that fact. Kaidou is a Yonkou, no matter how much you wish to discount it, he should be capable of performing feats that Marco can't perform, not just stalemating, but actually killing characters akin to his level.
> 
> He doesn't have immortality, he has invulnerability. I don't know why people are calling what he's dealt with immortality. Marco's regeneration also has a limit. The fruit giving him Immortality is headcanon, there is nothing in the story to state he gets his invulnerability from his fruit, especially considering he was damaged in his Dragon Form.
> 
> You can have that assumption, just don't bring it as fact here.


The issue that I have is that you are discounting Marco from being “Yonko level” due to him loosing to Teach, but Kaidou could also loose to Teach, so that doesn’t work. 

So far the ability that makes Kaidou so powerful is his invulnerability; Marco has the same Mythic Zoan class invulnerability. Both Marco and Kaidou present the same fundamental challenge. With that said Dragon in Oda mythology may be > Phoenix (though they are equals in actual mythology); I’ll grant this due to Kaidou being “King of the Beasts”; however the gap shouldn’t be that large between Kaidou and Marco. To me it’s also not surprising that Teach had to go through a Mythic Zoan Fruit users to establish himself as a Yonko; just like Luffy his Rival will have to with Kaidou. In essence these two serve the same role in the story imo. 

I meant primarily invulnerability / immortality is indeed an assumption


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> The issue that I have is that you are discounting Marco from being “Yonko level” due to him loosing to Teach, but Kaidou could also loose to Teach, so that doesn’t work.
> 
> So far the ability that makes Kaidou so powerful is his invulnerability; Marco has the same Mythic Zoan class invulnerability. Both Marco and Kaidou present the same fundamental challenge. With that said Dragon in Oda mythology may be > Phoenix (though they are equals in actual mythology); I’ll grant this due to Kaidou being “King of the Beasts”; however the gap shouldn’t be that large between Kaidou and Marco. To me it’s also not surprising that Teach had to go through a Mythic Zoan Fruit users to establish himself as a Yonko; just like Luffy his Rival will have to with Kaidou. In essence these two serve the same role in the story imo.
> 
> I meant primarily invulnerability / immortality is indeed an assumption


Yes, because while he can fight against Yonkou level opponents, he can't defeat them. I liken it to someone who can kill animals like tigers and bears in our world with their bare hands. Marco can harm the tiger/bear, but he can't kill it. Kaidou has superior feats from just causing the same phenomena as Shanks and Whitebeard with Big Mom. That cements him as Yonkou level, no matter how you feel about the subject, Marco is not a tiger killer.

No, he does not have invulnerability.




It's not the same thing. They both have different applications particularly in combat. For example, Marco has to activate his ability for it to be effective, there's a limit to it to a certain degree and if someone, for instance, catches Marco off-guard and cuts off his head, he won't be able to regenerate. Kaidou has a passive ability of being able to be completely impervious to damage to a certain extent, that means NOTHING under the damage necessary to hurt him can hurt him. Those are two different powers.

It's an assumption when he's fighting anything less than what's necessary to kill him. Yonkou's can kill one another. Admirals should be able to perform the same feat no issue. It's more strategic than "I can kill you and you can kill me", because if a Yonkou does try to kill another Yonkou, that means they use their military might to perform the task, that takes away their resources (remember Big Mom stated losing an asset like Jinbei lessens her military might) and that means they will be a less effective fighting force for opponents like the Marines Admirals and their own military. Their are politics of why Yonkou don't just go around killing one another.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Yes, because while he can fight against Yonkou level opponents, he can't defeat them. I liken it to someone who can kill animals like tigers and bears in our world with their bare hands. Marco can harm the tiger/bear, but he can't kill it. Kaidou has superior feats from just causing the same phenomena as Shanks and Whitebeard with Big Mom. That cements him as Yonkou level, no matter how you feel about the subject, Marco is not a tiger killer.
> 
> No, he does not have invulnerability.
> 
> ...


1- What I’m asking you for is proof that Marco can’t beat a Yonko or Yonko level. I mean literally we only have 2 confirmed battles between Yonko/Yonko levels 1v1 that actually reached a conclusion; this being Aokiji vs Akainu; and WB vs Akainu (sort of). Kaidou himself has no confirmed battle where he actually fought a Top Tier to a definitive conclusion (unless you consider Oden top tier, which he lost). So why is Marco being penalized for this, but no other Top Tier is

2- If creating the split in the sky is feat that places Kaidou far above Marco, then you need to accept Kaidou and BM are also far above the Admirals and Raileigh who never created this effect. The sky never split when Akainu clashed with WB or Kizaru clashed with Raleigh.

3- Yes they are different but they present the same challenge; how do you deal a definitive wound to Marco or Kaidou due to their Zoan Fruit. Marco gets a hole shot through his face by Kizaru so yes he would just regenerate if his head is cut off; it’s a passive ability as well. You need to bypass his ability period.

Teach has an ability that can directly counter Marco and Kaidou Zoan.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- What I’m asking you for is proof that Marco can’t beat a Yonko or Yonko level. I mean literally we only have 2 confirmed battles between Yonko/Yonko levels 1v1 that actually reached a conclusion; this being Aokiji vs Akainu; and WB vs Akainu (sort of). Kaidou himself has no confirmed battle where he actually fought a Top Tier to a definitive conclusion (unless you consider Oden top tier, which he lost). So why is Marco being penalized for this, but no other Top Tier is
> 
> 2- If creating the split in the sky is feat that places Kaidou far above Marco, then you need to accept Kaidou and BM are also far above the Admirals and Raileigh who never created this effect. The sky never split when Akainu clashed with WB or Kizaru clashed with Raleigh.
> 
> ...


He's not beaten one, nor has he caused lasting damage towards one. He has not shown the same feats as the rest, he doesn't have a fruit that can destroy the world, he lost soundly to Blackbeard. I don't know what else you want. Kaidou wasn't as strong then as he is now, it was implied he took Oden's words to heart and trained, and it was stated by the Marines that he got stronger since 20 years before.

No. The Admirals were beating characters left and right. The fact that Akainu could inflict considerable damage to Whitebeard before he was succumbing to his own illness is a feat, along with Aokiji being able to stalemate him for 10 days. You can't discount that. They have feats showcasing their strength as well.

It's not a passive ability, he has to activate it. Every time he used it when he wasn't in his Full Zoan or Half Zoan form, he needed to activate it.  Once again, where did you get that his fruit ability is how he has Invulnerability? Showcase a piece of evidence from the series, whether it be from panels, statements, or otherwise. You're using headcanon for something that was never stated, shown, or presented.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> He's not beaten one, nor has he caused lasting damage towards one. He has not shown the same feats as the rest, he doesn't have a fruit that can destroy the world, he lost soundly to Blackbeard. I don't know what else you want. Kaidou wasn't as strong then as he is now, it was implied he took Oden's words to heart and trained, and it was stated by the Marines that he got stronger since 20 years before.
> 
> No. The Admirals were beating characters left and right. The fact that Akainu could inflict considerable damage to Whitebeard before he was succumbing to his own illness is a feat, along with Aokiji being able to stalemate him for 10 days. You can't discount that. They have feats showcasing their strength as well.
> 
> It's not a passive ability, he has to activate it. Every time he used it when he wasn't in his Full Zoan or Half Zoan form, he needed to activate it.  Once again, where did you get that his fruit ability is how he has Invulnerability? Showcase a piece of evidence from the series, whether it be from panels, statements, or otherwise. You're using headcanon for something that was never stated, shown, or presented.


1- Same can be said about Kaidou though. When has Kaidou beaten another Top Tier or caused lasting damage to one? And Imo Kaidou also gets soundly defeated by Teach too. 

2- Pretty sure it was just stated he got stronger since Rocks

3- Admirals being able to damage WB is a feat; Marco being able to no sell those same attacks is also a feat though. As I see it Admirals (Color Trio) have greater offense then Marco; but he has a better defense. Incidentally so far this also applies to Kaidou as well. 

4- Where was it indicated he has to activate it; versus with Kaidou where was it indicated he doesn’t have to activate it?


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Same can be said about Kaidou though. When has Kaidou beaten another Top Tier or caused lasting damage to one? And Imo Kaidou also gets soundly defeated by Teach too.
> 
> 2- Pretty sure it was just stated he got stronger since Rocks
> 
> ...


Pretty sure you still need the physical strength to knockout a character like Oden in one blow. Pretty sure that he also was not damaged by Big Mom and the same can be said about Big Mom. They already showcased their feats to being top tier, I'm going to tell you like I told Duhul, don't be obtuse.

Yes. And why can't he have gotten stronger still since Oden? He respected Oden. Why wouldn't he follow his words?

He didn't no-sell attacks from the Admirals. When he took lasers to the back, for example, he fell, it hurt him. He needed to use his regenerative ability to deal with it. Stop being obtuse.

I don't know. When he was being a doctor for Sphinx's community. When he took lasers without having seastone handcuffs on him. When he regenerates from anything as a human. The ability comes from his Zoan fruit, it's the entire point of the fruit, to give him the characteristics of a phoenix. He has to activate and keep on his zoan form if he wants it to constantly regenerate him. If he does not, he has to activate it as a full human.

You're now saying that Kaido has to activate his invulnerability... OK. Go back and read what Duhul was doing and then make a connection to what you're doing now. I may have to take back what I said if you can't recognize that you're fucking up here. Just remember that the crowning moment of Kaidou entering the story is him falling from Sky Islands wishing to kill himself and get back to me.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Pretty sure you still need the physical strength to knockout a character like Oden in one blow. Pretty sure that he also was not damaged by Big Mom and the same can be said about Big Mom. They already showcased their feats to being top tier, I'm going to tell you like I told Duhul, don't be obtuse.
> 
> Yes. And why can't he have gotten stronger still since Oden? He respected Oden. Why wouldn't he follow his words?
> 
> ...


1- He hit Oden with a surprise attack from behind, which means Oden wouldn’t even be able to use Haki to defend himself. Oden being a character that relies heavily on swordsmanship to block his enemies attacks; rather then tanking them. I don’t really see this as some amazing feat beyond what even YC1 could do.

As far as not getting damaged Marco also fought Top Tiers without taking any damage that wasn’t negated ether, so I don’t see what the difference is there ether.

2- Maybe he did, maybe he didn’t, but it doesn’t real seem like much has changed. The big gimmick is still how to hurt Kaidou through his DF; which Kaidou already had going for him back then. Until Kaidou shows something else besides this, I don’t see any indication he is that different

3- You mean when he was handcuffed with sea stone negating his ability? Because before then he took the same laser to the head and laughed it off

4- Not saying he doesn’t, unless there is some awakening BS; I’m saying Kaidou also needs to activate his fruit.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- He hit Oden with a surprise attack from behind, which means Oden wouldn’t even be able to use Haki to defend himself. Oden being a character that relies heavily on swordsmanship to block his enemies attacks; rather then tanking them. I don’t really see this as some amazing feat beyond what even YC1 could do.
> 
> As far as not getting damaged Marco also fought Top Tiers without taking any damage that wasn’t negated ether, so I don’t see what the difference is there ether.
> 
> ...


Haki only supplements one's defense and offense, it doesn't mean that if you don't have haki, you can't defend. For example. Luffy's Busoshoku did nothing to block Big Mom's attack despite her not using Haki while in her child-like state. Pretty sure Big Mom also took Buraikan while emaciated and it didn't do much to her, she probably didn't haki then either due to being crazed. There's a big difference between tanking an attack, and not. Akainu survived WB's attacks and was still able to fight afterward without regeneration (you're still hurt if your substantial body is struck as a Logia, the regeneration only comes from keeping the body fluid, examples being Crocodile).

Again, I'm asking you, if you're not going to show proof for Kaidou's fruit being the source of immortality/invulnerability. Don't talk about it. Your headcanon is not good in a debate if it's not substantiated by evidence. Like I told Duhul. Please show proof.

Please don't tell me you're talking about when he had his half-zoan form on and took blasts from Kizaru. What's the difference between that situation and him being handcuffed. Don't be obtuse, one more time.

Kaidou transformed into his human form which he took Luffy's hits... He doesn't have any regenerative effects. His fruit gives him the characteristics of a dragon. He doesn't have a secondary effect. The two abilities of his fruit, becoming an eastern dragon, which in the One Piece world means, he can shoot flames and create clouds to fly with like Momonosuke.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Haki only supplements one's defense and offense, it doesn't mean that if you don't have haki, you can't defend. For example. Luffy's Busoshoku did nothing to block Big Mom's attack despite her not using Haki while in her child-like state. Pretty sure Big Mom also took Buraikan while emaciated and it didn't do much to her, she probably didn't haki then either due to being crazed. There's a big difference between tanking an attack, and not. Akainu survived WB's attacks and was still able to fight afterward without regeneration (you're still hurt if your substantial body is struck as a Logia, the regeneration only comes from keeping the body fluid, examples being Crocodile).
> 
> Again, I'm asking you, if you're not going to show proof for Kaidou's fruit being the source of immortality/invulnerability. Don't talk about it. Your headcanon is not good in a debate if it's not substantiated by evidence. Like I told Duhul. Please show proof.
> 
> ...


1- Sure but what I’m saying is Oden took an attack to the head while totally off guard. Since when did Oden show passive durability where say G4 Luffy couldn’t also knock Oden out if he hit him from behind in the head. 

2- Actually that’s not how burden of proof works. Kaidou’s has a DF which amps his durability; whether it’s completely responsible or partially doesn’t matter; as when characters are talking about Kaidou being tough to kill and Kaidou durability the Fruit is always going to be included in that equation as it’s part of Kaidou’s power. So basically you need to show that Kaidounis invulnerable to Top Tiers even without utilizing his Fruit’s power.

3- The difference is he obviously isn’t having his DF blocked by Sea-Stone 

4- First off Kaidou being totally human form is an assumption; as he still has his Dragon Horns. Secondly; Kaidou tanking hits from Luffy in his human form doesn’t mean he can do that shit with Top Tiers like Admirals in his Human Form. 

My point is simply that both Kaidou and Marco the main issue seems to be their damage negation; and getting around that.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Sure but what I’m saying is Oden took an attack to the head while totally off guard. Since when did Oden show passive durability where say G4 Luffy couldn’t also knock Oden out if he hit him from behind in the head.
> 
> 2- Actually that’s not how burden of proof works. Kaidou’s has a DF which amps his durability; whether it’s completely responsible or partially doesn’t matter; as when characters are talking about Kaidou being tough to kill and Kaidou durability the Fruit is always going to be included in that equation as it’s part of Kaidou’s power. So basically you need to show that Kaidounis invulnerable to Top Tiers even without utilizing his Fruit’s power.
> 
> ...


That's not the problem here. If Luffy did the same thing, do you think that Oden would have been knocked out?

*Keep in mind, Oden took Roger's sword attack to his own sword and was thrown away, he didn't get hurt. This character is portrayed as both a stamina and durability beast.

And yet... he turned back into his human form and allowed Luffy to use Gear 4th, which has some of his strongest attacks, and took them head-on without issue. As a human. Read that. As his human form. He took those attacks. We didn't see any scales, we didn't see any influences of his fruit. We literally just saw him. Taking hits, as a human. As close to human as Kaido is, anyway.

No. The difference is, when he enters into his Hybrid and Zoan Forms, his flames are PASSIVELY active. It's why they placed seastone cuffs on him in the first place. This isn't mental gymnastics. I'm not taking anything that can't be seen from the actual source material. And I'm not using theory, I'm using fact. Never have we seen Marco as a human not activate his blue flames when he is not in his Half Zoan and Full Zoan forms.

It's classified as his human form. It's his "Base". It doesn't matter. He fought Big Mom, potentially, in his human form, as there was nothing in the series that stated he went his Dragon Form nor is there anything that could be gathered from their fight that showcases he went his Dragon Form.

No, because they are completely different instances. Invulnerability can be an attribution to having a regenerative ability, but Invulnerability and Regeneration are considered their own powers. It all depends on how the character uses those abilities, but Marco is far from Invulnerable and Kaidou does not have a regenerative power. He simply is capable of tanking most attacks in the One Piece world from all but a select group of top tiers, and if you are less than that, your attacks won't hurt him.

The point here is. Marco is stronger, faster, and more capable than Luffy. Advanced Haki is a leg up for Luffy, but you still need the physicality to hurt who you are fighting and if they can tank your strikes anyway, you're not strong enough. Marco is superior to Luffy at this moment in time, he will be stronger because the plot demands him be stronger, and not a second until he showcases that power, can you state "Luffy is superior to a character just because of I headcanon it", that takes away from what debating is, it takes away from understanding the story.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> That's not the problem here. If Luffy did the same thing, do you think that Oden would have been knocked out?
> 
> And yet... he turned back into his human form and allowed Luffy to use Gear 4th, which has some of his strongest attacks, and took them head-on without issue. As a human. Read that. As his human form. He took those attacks. We didn't see any scales, we didn't see any influences of his fruit. We literally just saw him. Taking hits, as a human. As close to human as Kaido is, anyway.
> 
> ...


1- Yes

2- I’m not going to repeat myself again:

A) we don’t know that Kaidou was fully in human form against Luffy, as he still had his Horns

B) Luffy isn’t Top Tier 

3- There is nothing saying Kaidou didn’t use his DF against BM ether, so that’s not evidence, that he’s tanking Top Tier attacks without damage in Human form. 

—-

Secondly I’m aware of the fact that the way Kaidou and Marco damage neg being different; however in both cases the issue is getting past their different damage negation abilities. Yes Marco has to be hybrid/Zoan form to use his; while maybe some of Kaidou damage negation simply comes from his Human form’s natural durability, but ultimately Kaidou most durable form, the form that someone is going to have to overcome the defense off to beat Kaidou is going to be ether his Dragon or Hybrid form too; unless your going to argue his Dragon Fruit adds no durability buff at all. 

So when your facing Marco and Kaidou you need a way around their damage negation; and in both cases Teach has an ability that would greatly aid him in doing this by nullify their DF abilities; and another DF which has the offensive might to put down their Human Forms. Same thing with Luffy with Advanced CoA.


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- He hit Oden with a surprise attack from behind, which means Oden wouldn’t even be able to use Haki to defend himself. Oden being a character that relies heavily on swordsmanship to block his enemies attacks; rather then tanking them. I don’t really see this as some amazing feat beyond what even YC1 could do.
> 
> As far as not getting damaged Marco also fought Top Tiers without taking any damage that wasn’t negated ether, so I don’t see what the difference is there ether.
> 
> ...


1. A YC1 knocking out someone in a single strike, who we saw take a named attack from Roger and only receive minimal injury is ridiculous. Oden was highlighted as a physical freak who stood in boiling oil for an hour. He's obviously a tank and Kaidou knocking him out is impressive. We've actually seen Marco hit Aokiji off guard and do no visible damage yet you assume he'd knock out Oden with a kick? 

2. Comparing Marco's and Kaidou's durability is ridiculous. First of all Marco's fruit shouldn't even be called "durability" it is regeneration. He can take any damage (advanced haki might be an exception) and regenerate from it but it has a LIMIT. For example, Kaidou would've taken 1000+ hits from Luffy and still taken no damage 0x1000 is still 0. Marco still feels pain and he has stamina (which is likely tied to his limit), once that limit is reached he can't tank any more damage. 

4. Kaidou is constantly invulnerable to nigh everything, he doesn't have to activate this ability as it was VERY CLEARLY shown. He was captured multiple times but they couldn't kill him because of it, if he had to activate his fruit for his durability then he could've easily been killed in his sleep and he also wouldn't have any trouble killing himself. 

Also saying "there's no proof that Marco isn't Yonkou level" is bullshit. The burden of proof is on you especially when we've seen Marco lose to another Yonkou and show absolutely nothing to suggest he's on that level. I've already debated you on this and you clearly aren't going to change your stance at all


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> 1. A YC1 knocking out someone in a single strike, who we saw take a named attack from Roger and only receive minimal injury is ridiculous. Oden was highlighted as a physical freak who stood in boiling oil for an hour. He's obviously a tank and Kaidou knocking him out is impressive. We've actually seen Marco hit Aokiji off guard and do no visible damage yet you assume he'd knock out Oden with a kick?
> 
> 2. Comparing Marco's and Kaidou's durability is ridiculous. First of all Marco's fruit shouldn't even be called "durability" it is regeneration. He can take any damage (advanced haki might be an exception) and regenerate from it but it has a LIMIT. For example, Kaidou would've taken 1000+ hits from Luffy and still taken no damage 0x1000 is still 0. Marco still feels pain and he has stamina (which is likely tied to his limit), once that limit is reached he can't tank any more damage.
> 
> ...


1- Oden blocked Rogers attack with his sword; he didn’t take a surprise attack to his head. All the time we see characters get knocked out by weaker ones when they take surprise attacks. Remember Yeti Cool brothers and Zoro? Your drawing a false equivalence

Oden isn’t Aokiji a Logia user. Nor do I think Oden is even as strong as Aokiji.

2- Marco ability and Kaidou are damage negation abilities and pose the same challenge. You saying Marco ability can be exhausted and Kaidou can’t is head-canon. We don’t know that all we know is that both are extremely defensively sound

3- Can I have proof he isn’t activating his ability? And at no point did Kaidou face Top Tiers and tank their hits in human form 

4- How is the burden of proof only on me; you are asserting he isn’t Yonko level. So the burden of proof is on both of us. I’ve outlined why I feel he is ‘likely’ Yonko level due to his DF, Gorosei comments, and his shown abilities. If you disagree that’s fine but if your going to say he’s definitely not your are on the hook to prove it.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Yes
> 
> 2- I’m not going to repeat myself again:
> 
> ...


This is who you're underestimating and he got stronger than this:

*Spoiler*: __ 










Luffy would not have been able to do the same thing that Kaidou did. I can guarantee that. He put him down with a single blow. The guy that was literally blocking Roger's attack, that gave a massive impact yet he was only bleeding and wanted to continue fighting. Taking an attack from Roger in this universe is like going against a force of nature. It sounds like you're being obtuse again, but I'm gonna shrug that off, depending on what you say next, I'm done.

Funny you should talk about repeating yourself when I've done so for you multiple times and am getting tired of it. Kaido was in his full human form, it was commented that he was by his henchmen. One more time.

I'm not saying it doesn't add a durability buff. I'm saying that's Kaidou's bread and butter, enduring attacks and using his massive strength to defeat the foe, as seen with Luffy. It can also be insinuated he was doing the same thing with Kaidou, as he watched Kaidou close in on him and cut him. I don't know what Kaidou's mindset was, but from my "headcanon" he overestimated his own abilities.

I don't care about that, I've already talked about Marco's regeneration. Characters were already showcasing ways around it through use of seastone and by hitting him with enough force him returning back into his human form potentially (this has yet to be seen, but from what has been shown of Zoan's when unconscious they go back into their human forms, which also happens to Kaido from being hit by Oden's twin slash). Marco's regeneration potentially has a natural limit to itself too, much like most devil fruits have their limitations.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> This is who you're underestimating and he got stronger than this:
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...


1- Im sorry but your guarantee isn’t evidence; Oden has no passive durability feats that indicate when he’s not on guard he can suddenly tank attacks to the head and get back up he just doesn’t. In the case of Roger he was on guard and blocked the attack.

2- And I don’t trust his Fodder henchmen, to know for certain if he say constantly uses a minor transformation to create horns 

3- Okay so if Kaidou most durable form is his Dragon or hybrid form; then obviously that is the form that someone has to be able to damage to have a shot at beating Kaidou unless they catch him off guard before he has a chance to use it. Similarly the same is true of Marco.

Yes Seastone counters Marco form; it also would counter Kaidou hybrid form too; so that is irrelevant.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Im sorry but your guarantee isn’t evidence; Oden has no passive durability feats that indicate when he’s not on guard he can suddenly tank attacks to the head and get back up he just doesn’t. In the case of Roger he was on guard and blocked the attack.
> 
> 2- And I don’t trust his Fodder henchmen, to know for certain if he say constantly uses a minor transformation to create horns
> 
> ...


My guy, his natural durability is still a factor in combat. It's like saying if an average kid (aged 5-13) hit a grown man in the face, he wouldn't be capable of withstanding it because he wasn't looking.So with this I'm done with you after these two points.

*Three points

You don't trust henchmen who have seen and known Kaido. I'd understand if they don't know his most intimate secrets, but they are literally there for exposition... Again, you're being obtuse. Yep.

I keep saying that other top tiers are capable of harming Kaido, but these top tiers don't usually fight, because it would be a war. Something most characters in the series don't want because it has the potential to ruin the world as it's known. Shanks is literally trying to avoid having wars by talking to Whitebeard, stopping Kaido and coming to Marineford to stop the Paramount War. Big Mom states that she wants more firepower before fighting against characters like the other Yonkou. Again, inferences are thrown throughout the entirety of the fucking story, look for them.

It's not irrelevant because Kaido will still have his invulnerability (usually when characters with DFs are in situations where they are locked down, seastone handcuffs are used to nullify their powers). Seastone naturally weakens every DF user, that's why it's an amazing feat that Luffy can still move so well after dealing with seastone handcuffs while imprisoned in Wano. Kaido would have to be under the same types of circumstances otherwise they wouldn't be able to lock him down. This means that Kaido's Invulnerability still stands even while he's placed under seastone, you can't discount that, stop trying to.

But it doesn't matter. You're just as obtuse as Duhul, I'm done with you as well. Both of you can quibble all you wish, you don't actually wish to understand and learn anything.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> My guy, his natural durability is still a factor in combat. It's like saying if an average kid (aged 5-13) hit a grown man in the face, he wouldn't be capable of withstanding it because he wasn't looking.So with this I'm done with you after these two points.
> 
> You don't trust henchmen who have seen and known Kaido. I'd understand if they don't know his most intimate secrets, but they are literally there for exposition... Again, you're being obtuse. Yep.
> 
> ...


1- No one said it wasn’t; but we’re not talking about kids, where talking about extremely powerful characters. 

2- I said I don’t trust them; not that they aren’t necessarily right. I agree that the position he was in human form has more evidence, I’m just not going to be surprised if I find out that’s not the case 

3- Okay so if the other Top Tiers can hurt Human form Kaidou; obviously whether they can beat him comes down to whether they can overcome his hybrid form. Why are you arguing with me?

4- You literally just agreed he isn’t invulnerable in human form though to other Top Tiers lol; so what do you mean I have to admit he’s invulnerable still with sea stone on....

5- Dude you can’t just call people obtuse and rage quite out of debate. I have been completely polite with you.


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## Duhul10 (Apr 30, 2020)

I don't know how people see Roger's attack being blocked. It is pretty clear the slash is below the sword. It connected.


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- No one said it wasn’t; but we’re not talking about kids, where talking about extremely powerful characters.
> 
> 2- I said I don’t trust them; not that they aren’t necessarily right. I agree that the position he was in human form has more evidence, I’m just not going to be surprised if I find out that’s not the case
> 
> ...


Luffy's not a top tier right now, He's Highest of High Tier. Why? Because Katakuri is still stronger than he is, and he's Low Top Tier, and yet he's afraid of Big Mom's power just like anyone else and knows he cannot stop her. That's how big the gap is between these characters and Oden was closer to that gap than Luffy was. Luffy would not have knocked Oden out. I don't know where you get this headcanon from, but taking a hit from Kaidou vs taking a hit from Luffy are two different things. Hell, even Luffy went down after a single blow. Kaidou's strength is one of the strongest things about him on top of his relative durability.

No. You don't trust exposition from henchmen despite them knowing and seeing Kaidou on a daily basis. Keep that same energy.

Because they most likely won't use seastone handcuffs on Kaidou, they will most likely fight him with their own might. I'm arguing with you because you've been nothing but a nitpicky person since this started, and while I did respect your defenses before, saying that Marco was superior to Kaidou in any way makes absolutely no sense given what we know about the story and the narrative, and yet, here you are. Continually downplaying Kaidou's potential. At first, I thought you were actively defending Marco well, but you're not. You're just downplaying facts and stating "well, this is how I see it". You're both just problematic. You and Duhul and I don't have the state of mind to deal with stupid shit when all it takes is you going back and doing your own fucking research, I hope I'm making myself clear.

I didn't agree to shit. Do not put fucking words in my mouth. I stated no matter what stage Kaido is in, he has invulnerability. Dragon form means an increase in invulnerability, it doesn't mean Human form doesn't have invulnerability especially when, when we see him for the very first fucking time he drops from 10,000 meters in human form and isn't harmed nor in any discomfort.

I just call them how I've dealt with them. If you wish to be immature in this kiddy shit, at least you're in the right place. I'm done.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Luffy's not a top tier right now, He's Highest of High Tier. Why? Because Katakuri is still stronger than he is, and he's Low Top Tier, and yet he's afraid of Big Mom's power just like anyone else and knows he cannot stop her. That's how big the gap is between these characters and Oden was closer to that gap than Luffy was. Luffy would not have knocked Oden out. I don't know where you get this headcanon from, but taking a hit from Kaidou vs taking a hit from Luffy are two different things. Hell, even Luffy went down after a single blow. Kaidou's strength is one of the strongest things about him on top of his relative durability.
> 
> No. You don't trust exposition from henchmen despite them knowing and seeing Kaidou on a daily basis. Keep that same energy.
> 
> ...


1- And I don’t know where your getting the idea from that a Top Tier is needed to knock out Oden with a cheap shot to the head. I keep asking you for evidence of Oden having some insane passive durability where he can take a totally off guard hit to the head from someone like G4 Luffy and be fine; so far I still see no evidence

2- Yeah I don’t, sue me...

3- I never said Marco is superior to Kaidou; I said Kaidou >= Marco; but they both present a similar challenge, and have a similar weakness.

4- So again then I need proof that Kaidou in his human form is invulnerable to Top Tiers. It’s that simple

I also don’t think you understand what invulnerability
Is if your talking about an increase to invulnerability 

5- Your the one name calling and stuff; so how am I being immature...


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- And I don’t know where your getting the idea from that a Top Tier is needed to knock out Oden with a cheap shot to the head. I keep asking you for evidence of Oden having some insane passive durability where he can take a totally off guard hit to the head from someone like G4 Luffy and be fine; so far I still see no evidence
> 
> 2- Yeah I don’t, sue me...
> 
> ...


I'm done. Have a nice life.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> I'm done. Have a nice life.


Again literally did nothing to you, nor was I impolite no reason to go nuts here my man


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## Gomu (Apr 30, 2020)

Welp, thanks for the memories. This is why I left here before. No one really wants to learn anything here, and the few that are are struck with stupidity waves. @Canute87, thank you for your perspective on things. I can respect a person trying to understand contexts, please use more facts and understanding of the story to involve those contexts so they can be more solid.

Whoever saw this and respected my points, thank you as well. May god have mercy on your souls (and I'm an atheist).


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## Duhul10 (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin be like: "Again I need proof God is stronger than  Silvester Stallone. You do not have proof ? Show me a panel!Then it's not true."


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> Turrin be like: "Again I need proof God is stronger than  Silvester Stallone. You do not have proof ? Show me a panel!Then it's not true."


Duhul be like I don’t bring evidence to debates so I’m going to setup a false analogy to complain about some one calling me out on this fact


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## Duhul10 (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Duhul be like I don’t bring evidence to debates so I’m going to setup a false analogy to complain about some one calling me out on this fact


I'm living rent free inside your head. Keep on with your debate.


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Duhul10 said:


> I'm living rent free inside your head. Keep on with your debate.


Your the one following me around bruv lol


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 30, 2020)

I have not read  mosf of this thread but Marco's feats against Admirals are better that any Luffy's feats against top tiers. I would say that pre-Wano Luffy does not have firepower to defeat Marco's regeneration. Current Luffy may take it since we do not know how strong he is.


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## Lord Melkor (Apr 30, 2020)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> People hesitate to put Marco next to Kizaru while Turrin puts him above effing Kaido. I dunno what's going on anymore.



I agree that MF arc portrayed Marco as, if not Kizaru's equal, than at least as someone that can give him a very good fight. 

I also do not see Blackbeard fodderizing or low diffing Marco in the payback war. I think Baroque Works and CP9 also suffered "overwhelming defeat" from the hands of Strawhats but it does not mean they were easy opponents at all.


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## Quipchaque (Apr 30, 2020)

Lord Melkor said:


> I agree that MF arc portrayed Marco as, if not Kizaru's equal, than at least as someone that can give him a very good fight.
> 
> I also do not see Blackbeard fodderizing or low diffing Marco in the payback war. I think Baroque Works and CP9 also suffered "overwhelming defeat" from the hands of Strawhats but it does not mean they were easy opponents at all.



Yeah agreed. I don't think we have seen enough of Marco to accurately place him. So for now I too go with that ranking. Though I can understand why others disagree with us. We will probably get an answer soon in this Arc.


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## Canute87 (Apr 30, 2020)

Gomu said:


> Welp, thanks for the memories. This is why I left here before. No one really wants to learn anything here, and the few that are are struck with stupidity waves. @Canute87, thank you for your perspective on things. I can respect a person trying to understand contexts, please use more facts and understanding of the story to involve those contexts so they can be more solid.
> 
> Whoever saw this and respected my points, thank you as well. May god have mercy on your souls (and I'm an atheist).



You know I've been thinking about something,  My stance on focusing on speed vs focusing on power has absolutely nothing to do with hardness.


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## Ezekjuninor (Apr 30, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Oden blocked Rogers attack with his sword; he didn’t take a surprise attack to his head. All the time we see characters get knocked out by weaker ones when they take surprise attacks. Remember Yeti Cool brothers and Zoro? Your drawing a false equivalence
> 
> Oden isn’t Aokiji a Logia user. Nor do I think Oden is even as strong as Aokiji.
> 
> ...


1. Aokiji being a logia doesn't matter, Marco bypassed his element with haki and struck his real body. He did 0 visible damage. Kaidou struck an off guard Oden and KO'd him the two feats aren't even close. Whether oden is as strong as Aokiji doesn't really matter they're both clearly top tiers and I could easily argue that Oden has better durability feats than Aokiji who received a bloody lip from Jozu while Oden received a bloody mouth from ROGER.
2. No it isn't headcanon because Oda literally stated this in an SBS. Marco's regeneration has a limit/exhaustion point. Kaidou clearly took no damage from Luffy he wouldn't suddenly start taken damage after 100 or 1,000 punches because 0x1000 is still 0 or 0.00001 x 1000 is still ridiculously small. Marco actually takes damage and regenerates it until his limit is reached it's completely different.
3. I just gave you proof he isn't activating his ability you chose you ignore it like you ignore 90% of shit. If he was consciously activating his durability why would he have trouble killing himself. Why would he jump off sky island to try kill himself to just activate it and not kill himself. Why has the marines never managed to kill Kaidou even though they've captured him multiple times, are you implying he never sleeps?
4. The burden of proof is on you because you're assuming a YC1 is stronger than 1 (or 2 as Big Mom was shown as equal to Kaidou) of the 4 greatest pirates of this generation when there's virtually nothing to suggest that. We've seen how someone ~YC1 level performed against Kaidou he was stomped. We saw how Queen (YC2) got stomped by an amnesiac Big Mom.

And to list some of Marco's feats/hype/portrayal: He failed to injure Aokiji with a free hit, his haki failed to bypass Akainu with the help of Vista, he took an "overwhelming" defeat to blackbeard in the payback war who was very likely the weakest Yonkou at the time. Hell even the fact that Blackbeard has a damn 2.2million bounty AFTER defeating Marco overwhelmingly while Kaidou has a 4.6million bounty. WB also never referred to Marco as a brother like Oden; instead, he called him his child showing clear inferiority to Oden. But because Marco was able to regenerate laser attacks with a regeneration DF and stall Akainu for a few minutes with the help of vista you believe he's Yonkou level?
Edit: typo


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## Turrin (Apr 30, 2020)

Ezekjuninor said:


> 1. Aokiji being a logia doesn't matter, Marco bypassed his element with haki and struck his real body. He did 0 visible damage. Kaidou struck an off guard Oden and KO'd him the two feats aren't even close. Whether oden is as strong as Aokiji doesn't really matter they're both clearly top tiers and I could easily argue that Oden has better durability feats than Aokiji who received a bloody lip from Jozu while Oden received a bloody mouth from ROGER.
> 2. No it isn't headcanon because Oda literally stated this in an SBS. Marco's regeneration has a limit/exhaustion point. Kaidou clearly took no damage from Luffy he wouldn't suddenly start taken damage after 100 or 1,000 punches because 0x1000 is still 0 or 0.00001 x 1000 is still ridiculously small. Marco actually takes damage and regenerates it until his limit is reached it's completely different.
> 3. I just gave you proof he isn't activating his ability you chose you ignore it like you ignore 90% of shit. If he was consciously activating his durability why would he have trouble killing himself. Why would he jump off sky island to try kill himself to just activate it and not kill himself. Why has the marines never managed to kill Kaidou even though they've captured him multiple times, are you implying he never sleeps?
> 4. The burden of proof is on you because you're assuming a YC1 is stronger than 1 (or 2 as Big Mom was shown as equal to Kaidou) of the 4 greatest pirates of this generation when there's virtually nothing to suggest that. We've seen how someone ~YC1 level performed against Kaidou he was stomped. We saw how Queen (YC2) got stomped by an amnesiac Big Mom.
> ...


1- Can you link me to the feat your referencing with Marco and Aokiji? But the Color Trio are simply extremely durable whether it’s due to their fruit, their physical ability, Haki; or all of the above. We have seen Akainu take a surprise hit from WB and he wasn’t knocked down like Oden,  for example.

2- What I’m saying is that Kaidou DF also having no exhaustion point is head-canon.

3- Marco was casually taking hits from Kizaru; he obviously could easily take the same hits from Luffy that Kaidou did; If he can casually laugh off an Admirals attacks.

4- You don’t seem to get it; I’m not arguing that Kaidou in his human form isn’t also durable; I’m arguing that Kaidou peak durability, is obviously going to be in his Dragon or Hybrid Form, not his Base. So it’s the durability of these forms that someone has to overcome if they want to beat Kaidou; just like Marco peak Damage negation one has to overcome is his Hybrid/Phoenix forms

5- YC1 is a fan made Tier; so no the burden of proof isn’t one me because you are subjectively placing Marco in your fan-made tier. Marco is a YFM; but a FM of a Yonko can be Top Tier too; there is no rule preventing it. You literally just got done telling me WB old FM, Oden, is Top Tier lol.  So the burden of proof is on both of us, like I said. And I’ve outlined already why I believe Marco is Top Tier, no selling Admiral attacks, absurdly powerful DF, and believed to be capable of taking the place of WB and stopping Teach by the Gorosei.

6- Your listing Marco’s failing to damage the Admirals significantly but the Admirals also failed to damage him significantly as well; so are they not Top Tier now? He took a defeat against Teach because Teach was more powerful then anyone expected. And let’s not get into Bounties; Luffy beat a YC1 and is being called a fifth Yonko and his bounty is much smaller then Teach’s; so that doesn’t mean dick about whose Yonko level or not. Oden was WB brother because of their respective ages, that’s all.

Yes if someone is able to take on a Top Tier and no sell their attacks I think they are likely Top Tier. I mean fuck dude look at Luffy he could do shit to the Top Tiers he faced; but Marco can laugh off their attacks. I mean ether you have to believe Kaidou is WAY stronger then Kizaru in just his Human Form; or there is clearly a major difference between Marco and other YC/YC characters like Katakuri and Luffy. I mean come on man this isn’t rocket science


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