# Kakashi vs Jiraya



## kakashibeast (Aug 23, 2013)

Restriction: None
Location: Sannin Battlefield
SoM: IC
Knowledge: Manga knowledge
Who win


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 23, 2013)

Very tough match up. It all hangs on how fast Kakashi decides he needs to use Kamui. And with knowing Jiraiya is one of the Sannin, a master of toads and sage art, and his sensei's sensei, he's probably smart enough to know that raikiri's and raiden's are not enough to deal with J-man, therefore I see him barely edging out over Jiraiya.

Just my completely biased opinion.


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## joshhookway (Aug 23, 2013)

Kamui Kamui gg.


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## Ennoia (Aug 23, 2013)

Kakashi gets beaten badly without Kamui and with it he can just snipe Jiraiya when things get bad. Either way this thread is one sided IMO.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Kakashi has the advantage against Jiraiya all the way up until he enters Sage Mode, at that point in time, he'd have to take a defensive approach to the battle. He could use Kamui in conjunction with clones and have a RKB set up as well. Base Jiraiya isn't a problem, the problem arises when he has to face Sage Jiraiya, more specifically the sage toads and that paralyzing genjutsu.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

They are on about equal levels in power, and which one is more powerful/wins is basically which character you like more. That's what I've kinda noticed looking through some of you guy's older threads. Many of them essentially become a popularity contest, because a match is so close.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

J-man stomps on a train
J-man stomps on a plane
J-man stomps while hopping stones and chewing cud of sugarcane


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2013)

No Kamui GG or Edo Madara would have been Kamui'ed by Kakashi.

Jiraiya has AOE attacks nearly as Kakuzu level, Giant summons, far better stamina and far better experience that he has tons of way to block Sharingan LOS before Kamui GG. By that same logic, Yomi Numa + FCD GG before Kakashi activates his MS lol.

I don't see how Kakashi counters Giant Summons. And SM Jiraiya says goodbye to Kakashi within seconds. Kakashi is never in Jiraiya's level no matter by portrayal or feats.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> No Kamui GG or Edo Madara would have been Kamui'ed by Kakashi.
> 
> Jiraiya has AOE attacks nearly as Kakuzu level, Giant summons, far better stamina and far better experience that he has tons of way to block Sharingan LOS before Kamui GG. By that same logic, Yomi Numa + FCD GG before Kakashi activates his MS lol.
> 
> I don't see how Kakashi counters Giant Summons. And SM Jiraiya says goodbye to Kakashi within seconds. Kakashi is never in Jiraiya's level no matter by portrayal or feats.



Kakashi didn't bother Kamui'ing Madara cause he'd come right back via Obito. 

So Jiraiya needs a 8-floor tall toad to beat Kakashi?! 

Kakashi could just genjutsu it, most of Jiraiya's toads are simpletons at best. The only problem Kakashi would have is against Jiraiya is when he is Sage Mode and/or Ma + Pa. Other than that, Kakashi has Jiraiya beat, pretty much all around.


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## Jad (Aug 24, 2013)

Why is this thread made every two weeks


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## Legendary Itachi (Aug 24, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi didn't bother Kamui'ing Madara cause he'd come right back via Obito.
> 
> So Jiraiya needs a 8-floor tall toad to beat Kakashi?!
> 
> Kakashi could just genjutsu it, most of Jiraiya's toads are simpletons at best. The only problem Kakashi would have is against Jiraiya is when he is Sage Mode and/or Ma + Pa. Other than that, Kakashi has Jiraiya beat, pretty much all around.



You should say this to Kakashi when he wants to Kamui Jubi with KN0 cloak. Kamui won't GG when 1 Fire bullet can block Kakashi's target.

I think so, since Kakashi is dangerous enough for Jiraiya with his rep in Konoha.

Can he? I don't think Kakashi's Sharingan Genjutsu is on that level, Hebi Sasuke could barely control Manda shortly, and I doubt he can control the toads efficiently. 

CQC isn't favoring Kakashi if Jiraiya can defend himself with Needle Hair, AOE jutsu pressures Kakashi who has lower stamina, Kakashi can't blitz Jiraiya. Although Kakashi is slightly better in battle intelligence, Jiraiya with much more experience and enough intel can't be tricked easily.


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## Skywalker (Aug 24, 2013)

Kakashi shouldn't have an issue with Base Jiraiya, Sage Mode throws a wrench into things though. Kakashi could lose if he lets Jiraiya set up his summonings, but honestly the issue would be Ma and Pa, bigger toads are more like platforms then anything else. Frog song would be an issue though, Kakashi would have to Kamui him away pretty quick or risk getting overwhelmed after awhile, no stomping on either side though.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 24, 2013)

Kamui GG at match start.

Restrict Kamui and Kakashi dies.

As was said, it's onesided either way.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> You should say this to Kakashi when he wants to Kamui Jubi with KN0 cloak. Kamui won't GG when 1 Fire bullet can block Kakashi's target.
> 
> I think so, since Kakashi is dangerous enough for Jiraiya with his rep in Konoha.
> 
> ...



Kakashi was basically kamui-ing the head of the Juubi if not for Obito and that would have been game over. Headshots, my dude, headshots ? they earn respect. Assuming Jiraiya has knowledge of Kakashi's Kamui and Kakashi doesn't have to resort to it against the toads just Sage Jiraiya, if things are bad. 

I don't think in a 1 vs. 1 confrontation Jiraiya would summon any of the Gama Trio, rather I can see him summoning a toad stomach trap, which is highly more likely, as Jiriaya only summons when there's a reason to. For Kakashi, as a great of a threat as he poses and Jiraiya's understanding of the sharingan ? he may just opt not to summon creatures for fear of genjutsu in general.

Kakashi would likely use clones to engage in CQC the first couple of times, like he did against Itachi, Kisame, Shouten Itachi, Pain and etc. The only fight that I haven't seen him use a bunshin was against Kakuzu but that's because there was no need for it as Team 10 did a wonderful job being distractions.

Jiraya has experience but Kakashi is cunning and more of a strategist than Jiraiya is. After a few skirmishes, he'll figure out Jiraiya's forte without a doubt.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

Another thing that should give Kakashi the win is the Raiton Kage Bunshin. He can paralyze Jiraiya with it, and warp him into Kamuiland.


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## EnderNick (Aug 24, 2013)

Jiraiya would win if he went up to Kakashi and said "i will give you an unreleased special edition copy of my new Icha Icha book if you let me win." Kakashi would definitely go for the book.


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## Bonly (Aug 24, 2013)

I'd favor Kakashi more times then not. Base Jiraiya doesn't have what it takes to put down Kakashi and with this location, the changes of Jiraiya getting into Sage Mode is highly unlikely.


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## Transcendent Shinobi (Aug 24, 2013)

Jiraiya wins without even going Sage Mode. lol kakashi is good but Jiraiya is a lot more experienced and has better attacks.

For example if jiraiya goes out guns blazing kakashi is completely on defense and while he is concentrated on avoiding Jiraiya, Jiraiya could just summon the mountain toad and kakashi gets digested game over.

And for all you kamui gg's. Jiraiya could prob attack kakashi faster then kakashi could use kamui. So kakashi's kamui would only be for defense and after he uses that once or twice he just lost like 3/4 of his chakra.


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## SSMG (Aug 24, 2013)

The longer the fight goes the better it gets for jiraiya. kakashi can always kamui gg snipes right off the bat. Kakashi also has the type advantage over jiraiya IIRC.
Jiraiyas best options would be if he can make it into sage mode and just beat kakashi with brute force. Or if he enters sage mode and uses frog song. but kakashi wouldn't let him get the chance to do so. 

jiraiya could always do what naruto did and give kakashi spoilers for his latest book he just wrote. kakashi covers his ears and jiraiya summons a boss toad on him or something.
These to me are the best options for jman.


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## Bonly (Aug 24, 2013)

Transcendent Shinobi said:


> Jiraiya wins without even going Sage Mode. lol kakashi is good but Jiraiya is a lot more experienced and has better attacks.
> 
> For example if jiraiya goes out guns blazing kakashi is completely on defense and while he is concentrated on avoiding Jiraiya, Jiraiya could just summon the mountain toad and kakashi gets digested game over.
> 
> And for all you kamui gg's. *Jiraiya could prob attack kakashi faster then kakashi could use kamui.* So kakashi's kamui would only be for defense and after he uses that once or twice he just lost like 3/4 of his chakra.



Lol no Jiraiya can't. If Kakashi uses Kamui then Jiraiya is gonna be hit unless he managed to block Kakashi's line of sight before hand. Also have you been keeping up with the manga? Kakashi used around 5 Kamuis in his fight against Obito with Naruto+Company and that was after he fought during the day against some swordsman, and help fight the Edo Jin's. Using one or two Kamui will not take up 3/4ths of his chakra.


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## Laozy (Aug 24, 2013)

Jiraiya has a large number of toads which he can summon at - nearly - a snap of his fingers. Gamabunta can jump a good 60 meters up into the air with Jiraiya (hidden from view) on his back. He can also rain down water bullets.. let's see Kakashi try to dodge all of those while:

Fighting off Gamahiro and Gamaken (he's going to have to be using a ton of AoE jutsu that is going to drain huge amounts of chakra - who knows if he'll even BE ABLE to use Kamui again. Remember, he was lying in bed for around a _week_ after using MS a couple times).

Additionally, Jiraiya will be prepping for Sage Mode, after which he will summon Ma and Pa and absolutely wreck the zero-chakra Kakashi.

Oh, and don't even get me started on Jiraiya's other jutsu and Senpou.. in CQC Frog Kumite beats Kakashi bloody *and* he has Rasengan in several forms, including Giant Ball Rasengan etc.. *and* flame and earth release.

Please. Proposing that Kakashi might even be able to seriously injure Jiraiya is pure, ridiciolous fanboyism.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

Would someone enlighten me on why Kakashi's chakra levels are still being treated like complete shit? Since the war, he has proven that his chakra pool has increased exponentially. Not to mention his shrewd and strategic fighting style and Bunshin feints. It's not a "stomp" on either end, and whoever wins will have an incredibly hard time doing so.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Kakashi's stamina is by large a non-issue anymore. He's display during the war prior to the Kyuubi power-up was sufficient enough.


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## Laozy (Aug 24, 2013)

Fine. To put some numbers into the equation, Kakashi can use:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Kamui           *x5*
Raiton Kagebunshin    *x3*
Chidori                            *30 mins of usage time*
Kage Bunshin               * x5*
A-Rank Ninjutsu           *x3*
B-Rank Ninjutsu           *x6*




All as part of one chakra pool. Since, as you people have stated several times - and made me rethink my decision - Kakashi's total reserve has grown exponentially over time.

*Now, to start:*

Kakashi instantly pulls up MS, trying to land an early Kamui hit on Jiraiya.
Jiraiya instantly summons Gamabunta, Gamahiro and Gamaken (the Naruto vs. Pein trio), blocking his field of view. Kakashi aims for a headshot, which the toads just barely manage to avoid. Gamahiro is blinded in one eye.
Kakashi aims for Jiraiya, and if not possible, to at least take out another one of the toads before they reach him.
The toads are too fast for the Kamui to land, and they immediately engage him in CQC.
Kakashi jukes out using a Raiton Kagebunshin and preps Kamui.
Jiraiya has already jumped high up into the air up on Gamabunta's back, who is now showering the battlefield with water bombs.
Kakashi is pressured into dodging, can't land a Kamui. The frogs are on to him again.
Frogs engage Kakashi again.
Kakashi decides to kill them, juking out with a Raiton Kagebunshin and bitz the half-blind Gamahiro with one A-rank Katon and a Water Dragon Bullet, then Chidori to the vitals.
Gamahiro goes down. Gamaken engages, enraged by the death of his comrade.
Kakashi faces him head on, meeting him with an A-Rank AoE and and barrage of B-Rank jutsu, injuring him quite severely. He finishes the fight with a Kamui headshot.
Sage Mode is prepped. Gamabunta comes down on Kakashi, forcing him to dodge backwards, mid-air. While Kakashi is still airborne, Jiraiya comes down with a Giant Ball Rasengan, Ma and Pa on his shoulders.
Kakashi minimizes damage done by the Rasengan using Kamui, but still takes a heavy hit. He rolls to the side and jumps up, making an escape from Jiraiya, toad swords in-hand.
Jiraiya engages Kakashi in CQC. They are pretty much even as Kakashi has Sharingan -which Jiraiya should still defeat - but he cannot risk looking into the Sharingan eye, lest he be caught in a GenJutsu. Guntamaba looks for an opening to shoot down Kakashi. Ma and Pa look for an opening to use their Genjutsu.
Kakashi, forced back as he has to avoid both Ma and Pa as well as fight with Jiraiya is taking wounds.
Jiraiya lets him fall back a few steps, makes a shadow clone, then comes in for the finishing blow with needle shower, grabbing him and stabbing him through with a frog blade.
The Raiton Kagebunshin Kakashi explodes, stunning and injuring Jiraiya (although it's only minor, due to Sage Mode).
Kakashi, who was hiding in the ground a good 20 meters away, pops up and fires a Kamui.
Guntamaba jumps down just in time to save Jiraiya, sacrificing his own leg and falling over Jiraiya, covering him with his body.
Kakashi moves around him, attempting to find a way to hit Jiraiya directly with Kamui.
Jiraiya is recovering. This will take about a minute. Ma and Pa engage Kakashi, trying to stall him.
Kakashi wipes out the little toads with the last of his chakra reserves for A-rank and B-rank ninjutsu, and a chidori to the face of Pa, who managed to dodge.
Ma and Pa are dead. Jiraiya has had enough time to recover. He comes around to engage Kakashi in CQC, but the distance between them allows Kakashi to prep Kamui. However, the Kagebunshin Jiraiya prepared earlier comes down with a Giant Ball Rasengan.
Kakashi switches his focus to absorb the Rasengan, then takes out the clone with a kunai. However, a toad oil bullet and needle Jizo are already coming Kakashi's way. He can't dodge in time. He sustains quite a bit of damage from the needles after he dodges the bullet.


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## Mercurial (Aug 24, 2013)

Laozy said:


> Jiraiya has a large number of toads which he can summon at - nearly - a snap of his fingers. Gamabunta can jump a good 60 meters up into the air with Jiraiya (hidden from view) on his back. He can also rain down water bullets.. let's see Kakashi try to dodge all of those while:
> 
> Fighting off Gamahiro and Gamaken (he's going to have to be using a ton of AoE jutsu that is going to drain huge amounts of chakra - who knows if he'll even BE ABLE to use Kamui again. Remember, he was lying in bed for around a _week_ after using MS a couple times).
> 
> ...



Are you serious? Kakashi dodged Kakuzu's Fuuton Atsugai (giant AoE) from 1 mt point blank while fighting Hidan in CQC with a kunai against a scythe and watching team 10 to babysit them... he keeped up with multiple fucking V2 Bijuu enhanced by fucking Sharingan and Rin'negan and landed hits on them, he fought fucking Gedo Mazo landing Raiden and should have problem with Bunta, Hiro or Ken? Kakashi blitzes them and cut their limbs with Raiden, or genjutsu them with his Sharingan (feats to be on par with Obito in genjutsu skill and power with the Sharingan)

By feats, Kakashi is too fast for Jiraiya's poor reflexes and speed feats, he speedblitzes with Raikiri, or outsmarts with Kage Bunshin\RKB followed by kunai to the head\Raiden... not to mention Kakashi can use Sharingan genjutsu on Jiraiya and his summons, has the elemental advantage (Raiton > Doton,Suiton > Katon,then his own Doton) can copy Doton:Yomi Numa, is far smarter and obviously has Sharingan precognition and Kamui GG on his side... no chance for Jiraiya... Jiraiya can count on powerful resources in the long range game as Katon:Gamayuu Endan (dodged by going underground), Doton:Yomi Numa (copied with Sharingan or nullified by Raiton flow) etc ... Kakashi has always a counter and has the elemental advantage, once he manages to close the distance in the short range combat he has it in the bag

Jiraiya would never reach SM fighing against a ninja of Kakashi's caliber and skill level, and even if he did, it wouldn't be enough: Kakashi was keeping up, landing hits and fighting without being hit against Rinnegan and Sharingan enhanced V2 Bijuu and outspeeded Obito who could keep up with no Shunshin KCM Naruto, so speed is not a matter here, Kakashi is still the faster one and has Sharingan precognition as well; Senpo:Goemon is countered by Doton undergroud, Oodama Rasengan by Kamui etc Kakashi can play it smart and make Jiraiya hit a RKB then go with Raikiri or Raiden, or simply wait the right moment to rely on Kamui GG

If you want to compare their feats... and hype and portrayal too, Kakashi is one of the best and more skilled ninja of all times, Jiraiya is great but not at that level, War Arc shows how stronger than him is Kakashi


*Spoiler*: __ 



Brawling

*Speed: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya in base is never noted for his speed and has no speed feats, HM Jiraiya is really fast though,as seen against Pain... but Kakashi is one of the fastest characters,hyped for his speed from Tobi, Kakuzu and databook... kept up very well with Itachi and Gated Gai, dodged Kakuzu's Fuuton:Atsugai point blank while fightinh Hidan, could run behind Pain Shurado's back, intercepted Kakuzu's Raiton:Gian, speedblitzed Zabuza, Kabuto and Sharingan/Rinnegan enhanced V2 Jinchuuriki/Paths, outspeeded Tobi in Kamui realm and can boost his speed with the 1st Gate)
*Reflexes: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya has no really relevant feats in base and some good in HM as reading Pain Ningendo's attack path, well Kakashi has a full fledged 3 tomoe Sharingan and MS for precognition and has been praised from Itachi, Kakuzu and Tobi for his use, and has astonishing feats, as reacting to Itachi's fast ninjutsu without seeing the handseals, reacting to Susano'o arrows from a little distance with a perfect Kamui warp, perfectly reading KCM Naruto's combat speed to time his Kamui, out-reacting Obito in Kamui world and reacting to lightning itself... Kakashi landing Raikiri on V2 Bijuu and defeating Obito, who could perfectly keep up and fight with KCM Naruto, in a taijutsu clash, are astonishing feats)
*Weapons: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya doesn't use weapons, Kakashi is god-good with a simple kunai in his hand, has shown high level skill in swordmanship and skilled use of support weapons such as chains and makibishi)
*Strength: TIE* (Jiraiya in base has the "finger Naruto feat" but Kakashi throwed both Naruto and Sasuke as flies, stopped Zabuza's Kubikirihocho with a mere kunai and made Obito blood with his punches, not to mention he can boost his strength with 1st Gate... with HM Jiraiya has the upper hand in strenght, with the ox feat and the "eye-busting" kicking feat against Pain)
*Durability: TIE* (Kakashi has received heavy damages and wounds in a lot of fights, as 2nd Zabuza fight,against Kakuzu, against Pain and in the war,not deadly but heavy,but has always continued to fighting as he received no damage, Jiraiya after a cut arm and heart wound will powered himself to life... hard to say)
*CQC Effectiveness: KAKASHI* (easily,as he has shown better speed, better reflexes with Sharingan to boot,can use his Raikiri and unblockable Raikiri weapons in CQC, can use ninjutsu and genjutsu (Sharingan) in CQC, has the 1st Gate boost and could combo with Kage Bunshin or Raiton Kage Bunshin)

Ninjutsu
*Offense: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya is really good with Katon:Gamayuu Endan, Doton:Yomi Numa,Rasengan,Senpo Cho Oodama Rasengan, Senpo:Kebari Senbon, Senpo:Goemon,Kuchiyose:Yatai Kuzushi, Kuchiyose:Gamaguchi Shibari and generally his toads, but Kakashi has Raikiri,Rasengan,double Raikiri,Raikiri Wolf (Raiju Hashiri), Raikiri weapons, V2 shroud cutting Raiden, Suiton-Raiton possible combo, Suiton Suiryoudan, Suitonaikoudan, can copy ninjutsu with his Sharingan, has 1000 jutsu arsenal and most of all has totally hax Kamui,with perfect long range offensive and defensive version, dimensional warping and short range in-out warping)
*Defense: KAKASHI* (Kamui with long range warping and also dimensional warping speaks for everything, but he has also underground Doton, Dotonouryuheki and Suiton Suijinheki... Jiraiya has Hari Jizo)
*Support: KAKASHI* (Kakashi's Raiton Kage Bunshin is just such a hax, then he has also Kage Bunshin, Taiju Kage Bunshin, Mizu Bunshin,underground Doton, ninken, and a lot of jutsu from his 1000 jutsu arsenal, Jiraiya is very very good though, with Kage Bunshin, Gama Daira Kage Ayatsuri no jutsu, Gamagakure, and a pair of high level Kekkai ninjutsu)
*Endurance: TIE* (Jiraiya really has a lot of chakra, but Kakashi's war arc feats speak for himself)
*Efficiency: KAKASHI* (simply, Jiraiya is a wonderful ninja, but Kakashi has shown he is even more skilled)

Genjutsu
*Offense: KAKASHI* (Kakashi has a full fledged 3 tomoe Sharingan and MS, has shown Sharingan genjutsu able to distract and manipulate his opponent or to make them sleep,and also Magen:Narakumi no jutsu (a D level genjutsu,but keep in mind level is just learning difficulty,and it's a Magen genjutsu,not a normal genjutsu... remember Sakura dispelled Kabuto's A rank genjutsu but was stomped by Kakashi's D rank genjutsu) ... Jiraiya has no genjutsu skill as he himself said but in SM with Shima and Fukasaku has the really has genjutsu Magen:Gama Rinsho.. still Kakashi's feats of drawing in a Sharingan genjutsu fight with Obito is really doom in this field too)
*Defense: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya has the perfect base for genjutsu Kai, but Kakashi has it and has a full fledged 3 tomoe Sharingan and MS to see through genjutsu, is a genjutsu user too even if genjutsu it's not his best field and Itachi said himself he could defend from his normal genjutsu, so he had to resort to Tsukuyomi to take him out in pt 1, also in a genjutsu fight is on par with Obito)


Intelligence
*Tactics: KAKASHI* (lack of time to motivate, but is pretty obvious)
*Insight: KAKASHI* (lack of time to motivate, but is pretty obvious)


*Overall: KAKASHI* (Jiraiya is a hell of a ninja,with a really really good ninjutsu arsenal, a wonderful ninjutsu arsenal expecially fromt mid-long range I'd say,he is experienced and smarter and more skilled than people give him credit for, if he can reach HM is a really tough opponent for nearly everyone, but without HM really lacks in speed and reflexes department... Kakashi is more skilled, a genius good if not nearly perfect in all fighting areas, he is smart, skilled, fast,with high level reflexes and Sharingan, high level taijutsu, good strength and endurance, wonderful ninjutsu arsenal with support, short,mid and long range jutsu and 1000 jutsu hype and a simply too hax jutsu as Kamui,who he has now perfectly mastered... while Jiraiya is very good, I'd say a 8 on 10 ,Kakashi is a 9, even 9 on 10, with 9.5 being Minato,healthy Nagato with Pain and Rinnegan Tobi 10 being the absolutely top as Madara, Hashirama, BM Naruto and (maybe,that's not for now,but for his hype) EMS Sasuke and well Juubito is 10+ tier... the copy ninja is really one of the best shinobi of all times, but Jiraiya too needs respect)


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## Laozy (Aug 24, 2013)

My gosh, if anyone actually read that I commend them.. I actually have nothing to do this evening. Still, if you want the finished fight:

Jiraiya initiates CQC with a Ultra-Massive Ball Rasengan, crushing the slowed Kakashi underneath.
Kakashi manages to slip under the earth to save himself. He comes around with a Chidori, aimed at Jiraiya's heart but the Sage reacts and it just misses, putting a hole just below the shoulder.
Jiraiya swings through with the toad blade and they engage in CQC where the tired-out Kakashi can't keep up with Sage Mode strength and speed.
Kakashi sustains several serious wounds. He can't use Kamui or MS anymore.
Jiraiya's needles + TaiJutsu and Rasengan combo finally smashes Kakashi to the ground, finishing him.
Kakashi x___x

Still, it's not until writing that whole massive wall of text up that I realize how close the fight is.. could go either way, really.
Well, that's my opinion.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

^nah, its realy not that close

U gradually convinced yourself in between each sequence U listed, that because kakashi technically has a counter to every Jiraiya tech(& vise -versa), that each instance would actually be plausible 4 kakashi.

 This, while discounting the whole sage enhancements as advantages vs regular ninjutsu - as opposed to a deck of playing cards between the 2 shinobi where each offering has an equal potential of value - in combat;   it just isn't the case...


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## Laozy (Aug 24, 2013)

@Raikiri19
Good points 0-0
I will have to +Rep you there, but I still have to go with Jiraiya, just from my own opinion. I'm too lazy to state feats, but I'm not an idiot that would keep on believing Jiraiya could win _without_ having my feats, soo.. I'm a lost cause. >_<

Read my battle simulation and change some of the points. It will give everything some context.


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## Senkou (Aug 24, 2013)

How many times can Kakashi use kamui now, I forget.

Jiraiya could just summon Gamabunta. Combine toad oil and fire blast. GG

Realistically tho, I see Kakashi on the defensive the whole fight and burning through Kamuis to not get 1 shotted. Just to get 1 shotted after he reaches his kamui limit.


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## Laozy (Aug 24, 2013)

@Senkou

Kakashi can use Kamui twice and take off Gamabunta's head..


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## Senkou (Aug 24, 2013)

Taking off gamabunta's head does nothing to Jiraiya btw.

Can Kakashi's kamui even warp something that big though? Maybe an eye or gamabunta's cheek but the whole head? Hmmmmmm.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

Kamui GG 
Then I said yomi numa GG
Jm?n fights with clones and substitutions . Kinda silly to kamui a clone 

Funny how every single kakashi fan only response in each BD thread is kamui GG

So I guess u all believe kakashi vs madara is kamui GG as well. Cuz both have shown no clear cut way to avoid kamui . However will and can through fighting with common sense .


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

Susano'o counters kamui, so does mokuton or any LoS clogger


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## SSMG (Aug 24, 2013)

Kakashi can use Kamui 5 times now..along with many other exhausting techniques.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> Susano'o counters kamui, so does mokuton or any LoS clogger



Yomi numa does as well. It's just as quick to use. I don't see kakashi trying to zap his head when he is being pulled into the abyss
Also who says he starts with it ?
If he doesn't he will find it hard to locate the real jiraiya who will be fighting via clones nd summons


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## Ghost (Aug 24, 2013)

Jiraiya sacrificing his summons to bail himself out? Totally IC.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

saikyou said:


> Jiraiya sacrificing his summons to bail himself out? Totally IC.



except his intent isn't to sacrifice them?

nevermind the kamui all angles assumed nonsense  as the pretext.
totally plausible


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## Senkou (Aug 24, 2013)

A fight where Jiraiya has no knowledge of Kamui. Kakashi wins.

Both having full manga knowledge. Kamui is moot. Jiraiya would just continuously block LoS until Kakashi goes limp.

Even with parlor tricks (aka clone diversion to kamui) Jiraiya is more than capable of handling multiple targets. As seen from his battle with 6 paths Pain. He ultimately lost but against Kakashi, there isn't the whole I see everything + special powers stipulation. Kakashi can't absorb jutsu, he can warp it but that goes into his Kamui tally. If 5 is his max wasting Kamui to block jutsu will be his demise.

I have no doubt that Kakashi could keep up with Jiraiya. I just believe it will be a stalemate at best until Kakashi reaches his Kamui limit. At which Jiraiya is at an advantage with SM and summons. *Kakashi could save kamui to warp summons but that cuts into kamui as offense

A better fight would be Kakashi w/o Kamui vs Jiraiya w/o SM and Summons. Same manga knowledge.


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## Senkou (Aug 24, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Yomi numa does as well. It's just as quick to use. I don't see kakashi trying to zap his head when he is being pulled into the abyss
> Also who says he starts with it ?
> If he doesn't he will find it hard to locate the real jiraiya who will be fighting via clones nd summons




Kakashi fights the same way and is more versatile w/ more variety of jutsu.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Yomi numa does as well. It's just as quick to use. I don't see kakashi trying to zap his head when he is being pulled into the abyss
> Also who says he starts with it ?
> If he doesn't he will find it hard to locate the real jiraiya who will be fighting via clones nd summons


Jiraiya doesn't spam clones like Kakashi does nor does he use them as effectively as Kakashi has. Odds are Jiraiya wouldn't be able to tell if he's fighting a clone or not.


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## Bonly (Aug 24, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Yomi numa does as well. It's just as quick to use. I don't see kakashi trying to zap his head when he is being pulled into the abyss
> Also who says he starts with it ?
> If he doesn't he will find it hard to locate the real jiraiya who will be fighting via clones nd summons



How does Yomi numa counter Kamui? Also Kakashi has Raiton to get out of the Doton as well as can copy the Doton and use it on Jiraiya as well.


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## Santoryu (Aug 24, 2013)

Kakashi wins, he's the stronger character, and the better tactician. Simple as that.




The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Kamui GG at match start.


because that's totally IC for Kakashi against a guy who he surpassed a while back? 



> Restrict Kamui and Kakashi dies.
> 
> As was said, it's onesided either way.



Considering Kakashi without Kamui contended with multiple version-two Jinjuriki in an exhausted state, contended with Rinnegan Obito, and even matched Obito's Sharingan-genjutsu, I'd say it'd be far from one sided. Jiraiya would be in for the fight of his life. Jiraiya's main advantage would be numbers if summons came into play, but Kakashi physical superiority coupled with the Sharingan will make his moves fare more efficient-in the past Kakashi couldn't sustain the Sharingan for long-periods of time whilst using multiple high-chakra taxing jutsu, but the war has proved that Kakashi is longer hindered by these things.


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## Icegaze (Aug 24, 2013)

Bonly said:


> How does Yomi numa counter Kamui? Also Kakashi has Raiton to get out of the Doton as well as can copy the Doton and use it on Jiraiya as well.



Read ur reply ull see how yomi numa counters kamui . If he is using kamui on an he can raikiri the gound under him . Seeing how fast yomi numa is kakashi will have to choose one or the other . So if he proceeds with kamui he won't have enough time to use raikiri and escape therefore a draw 

Which means kakashi will stop the jutsu and try escaping yomi numa


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 24, 2013)

Kamui kinda set kakashi above the 3 legendary sannin...especially since they use giants which are pretty good targets. But he is not 1-2 tiers above them or anything like that imo. Kakashi biggest problem here is his stamina...a stat jiraiya excels in greatly. Still seeing kakashi in this war he has come a long way stamina-wise no matter how you slice it. Suitons for the katons and raiton for the earth style also tips the balance. Jiraiya would literally have to try and wear kakashi down with multiple ninjutsu spam and maybe hit with a lucky frog song to win this. If kakashi keeps up a high level of combat with clone feints, top class raiton and low kamui usage he can take this and come out with the win high high diff and no less. Jiraiya's crazy summon game is still relevant to this day imo.


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## Bonly (Aug 24, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Read ur reply ull see how yomi numa counters kamui . If he is using kamui on an he can raikiri the gound under him . Seeing how fast yomi numa is kakashi will have to choose one or the other . So if he proceeds with kamui he won't have enough time to use raikiri and escape therefore a draw
> 
> Which means kakashi will stop the jutsu and try escaping yomi numa



If Kakashi is using Kamui then why wouldn't it hit Jiraiya? Jiraiya is not fast enough to stay out of Kakashi's eye sight and with how fast Kakashi can use Kamui and how slow Jiraiya is, why wouldn't he get hit? Also the swamp isn't fast enough to completely sink Kakashi before Kakashi can use some Raiton to get out of it after he Kamui's Jiraiya.


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

kakashi cant escape yomi numa, period.

unless theres proof hes copied ration armor or chidori nagashi.

and if Yomi numa is S-rank, he cant even copy it.

kakashi losing his footing disturbs his LoS(nevermind that his life flashing before his eyes) therefore kamui fails on Jiraiya.

he doesn't have to sink all the way


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## Bonly (Aug 24, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> kakashi cant escape yomi numa, period.
> 
> unless theres proof hes copied ration armor or chidori nagashi.
> 
> ...



Where did you get that terrible information from?


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

Where was it stated he couldn't copy S-Rank techniques?


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## wooly Eullerex (Aug 24, 2013)

I Am Probably Wrong said:


> Where was it stated he couldn't copy S-Rank techniques?



because they(S-rank) either don't use hand seals or they require much more than handseals & affinity alone.

its implied

but meh Yomi Numa is  A-rank anyway, so...


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 24, 2013)

Well, we certainly aren't convincing anyone. Most people's opinions don't change because of what some random person on a forum said. And everyone is biased. Fans, like me, especially.


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## Axiom (Aug 24, 2013)

I feel Kakashi has the advantage in CQC and the ranged game.  He has gone toe-to-toe with V2 Jins and he kinda raped Obito, although Obito may have been jobbing, or w/e it is that Edo Deidara and Sasori did.  He also has his genjutsu and of course with his ability to go underground, the door is open to feint Jiraiya, where as Jiraiya's only real hiding place would be inside a toad (which would be easily seen) or inside his own shadow (note that the Sannin Battlefield is a wide, open area with nothing to obscure LoS other than their own attacks.  This is long enough for Kakashi to make a KB and Doton, but Jiraiya can't stay under the cover of attacks forever, he'd be found sooner or later.)  One might argue that Kakashi could even see the chakra of J-Man inside his own shadow.  So yeah, up close, Jiraiya is outclassed; he has less skill and less options.

At a range, Kakashi has Suitons to take care of Katons, Raiton to diffuse through Yomi Numa, and Kamui which is the most powerful weapon immediately available.

Jiraiya can offset these advantages by using a KB and trying to double team Kakashi, but that halves his chakra, and it's not like it's beyond Kakashi's ability to throw out a KB of his own.  Anyway, all this leaves Jiraiya with two options to even it out: 1)summons or 2)Sage Mode.  Given the location, SM isn't likely to be attained, so it just comes down to summons.  Namely, Gamabunta.  Jiraiya could summon the Gamatrio but that's overkill and totally OOC.

Gamabunta has a lot of stuff that troubles Kakashi: Gamayu Endan with Jiraiya, massive Suiton Bullets, perhaps even Yatai Kuzushi.  At the end of the day though, massive attacks like those compromise Jiraiya's field of vision and leave openings for Kakashi bunshin feints, and if Kakashi feels overwhelmed, he can always bring out the Kamui spammage.  He's proficient enough with the jutsu by this point to end the fight before Jiraiya can do anything about it; he Kamui'd a Rasengan before Obito could react, and that Rasengan is probably about the size of Jiraiya's head .  Also, Kakashi could perhaps genjutsu Gamabunta, which shouldn't be too difficult a task.

It's not beyond Jiraiya's capabilities to win, but I feel Kakashi counters his arsenal well enough to win more often than not.  Give Jiraiya a location with more room for hiding and a higher possibility of attaining SM and he'd probably win, but with circumstances as they are, Jiraiya's stealth game is gimped and in an open battle he can only rely on summons.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 24, 2013)

diadora Lotto said:


> kakashi cant escape yomi numa, period.
> 
> unless theres proof hes copied ration armor or chidori nagashi.
> 
> ...


Yomi Numa is an A-ranked jutsu, so Kakashi may be able to copy it or reuse it against Jiraiya, however Kakashi can copy anything related lightning-element, the degree of difficulty or rank of the jutsu doesn't matter because it's his main element. Kakashi actually has an elemental advantage over Jiraiya, so he won't be able to rely on any of his ninjutsu to assist him.

Jiraiya wouldn't expect someone of the non-Uchiha related bloodline to awaken the MS, especially if Itachi thought it was impossible. He'd have to know what Kamui is in order to dodge it all together. I'm sure he'd be avoiding eye contact to begin with so it'll be that much harder to maintain keep an eye on what form Kakashi's eyes are.

Also, bear in mind that Yomi Numa requires seals to formed and Kakashi can keep track of it using the sharingan and be a step ahead of Jiriaya all together. He's no slouch in this department, if he was reacting to Itachi's speed while being slower than him, he can definitely defend against Jiraiya.


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## Ersa (Aug 24, 2013)

I still see SM Jiraiya as superior to Kakashi even now albeit it's a tiny advantage, barrier + Frog Song should honestly grant him the win as long as he plays it smart and doesn't get Kamui to the face. However since Jiraiya starts in base, he gets chased down and sniped with Kamui.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> If Kakashi is using Kamui then why wouldn't it hit Jiraiya? Jiraiya is not fast enough to stay out of Kakashi's eye sight and with how fast Kakashi can use Kamui and how slow Jiraiya is, why wouldn't he get hit? Also the swamp isn't fast enough to completely sink Kakashi before Kakashi can use some Raiton to get out of it after he Kamui's Jiraiya.



Since when wasn't the swamp fast enough ? A little swamp submerged half of human path in a panel . If kakashi hands are under the technique who says he can deactivate it ? 
Also everyone logic is weird kakashi knows it's jiraiya therefore he kamui GG an unprepared jiraiya 
Well erm people jiraiya knows it's kakashi as well therefore makes sense for him to start with a smoke screen and fight via clones . Am pretty sure if he fought against any sharingan user that would be his strategy . makes sense .  

All kakashi fan only crutch is kamui. kakashi using kamui isn't iC he only used it against obito because every other technique was fodder level to obito . All his other technique aren't fodder to jman.


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## MS81 (Aug 25, 2013)

even as K-rock as my fav character, him and J-man are= until sage mode comes into play.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Since when wasn't the swamp fast enough ?



It has never been shown that fast.



> A little swamp submerged half of human path in a panel .



In one panel it managed to sink his feet while he was crouching, not that impressive. 



> If kakashi hands are under the technique who says he can deactivate it ?



Since the swamp won't sink him that fast it won't matter but then there's also the fact that he doesn't need a hand sign to use Raikiri which means he can still use Raiton deactivate the Doton.



> Also everyone logic is weird kakashi knows it's jiraiya therefore he kamui GG an unprepared jiraiya



Kamui GG pop up whenever he fights in the BD reguradless if it's just Jiraiya or not. 



> Well erm people jiraiya knows it's kakashi as well therefore *makes sense for him to start with a smoke screen and fight via clones* . Am pretty sure *if he fought against any sharingan user that would be his strategy . makes sense* .



Which is exactly what he did in the manga when he met Itachi, oh wait never mind.  



> All kakashi fan only crutch is kamui.



Get used to it.



> kakashi using kamui isn't iC he only used it against obito because every other technique was fodder level to obito .All his other technique aren't fodder to jman.



If he used something then it's in his character to do so. Kakashi has use Kamui besides his fight with Obito thus it's in his character to use it. One can argue if it's in his character to use it often/ outside of a last resort but to say it isn't in his character is outright false.


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## Meruem (Aug 25, 2013)

With manga knowledge, Jiraiya doesn't know about Kamui and Kakashi has too much respect for Jiraiya to wait long on it.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> It has never been shown that fast.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Saying kakashi uses it off the bat is just as wrong and if he doesn't he won't get to use t since we all know jman Fights  with clones and summons .  
Outside obito he always used it as a last resort . He didn't see the 7 swords men and zap their heads now did he


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> Saying kakashi uses it off the bat is just as wrong



Never said Kakashi would use it right off the bat( or saw anyone in the thread post that beside PoW who I'm not sure if she was serious or not).



> and if he doesn't he won't get to use t since we all know jman Fights  with clones and summons .



No he'll still get the chance to use it unless he magic loses his eye.



> Outside obito he always used it as a last resort .



False as he used Kamui while chasing down Deidara and it wasn't a last resort.



> He didn't see the 7 swords men and zap their heads now did he



Never hinted nor said his did but ok.


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## FlamingRain (Aug 25, 2013)

PoW is a dude, brah.

-------------------------------

This is not a one-sided match. _Kamui_ is only used out of absolute necessity and an offensive _Kamui_ is even more rare. Unless Kakashi deems Jiraiya a threat to the ninja world in its entirety like he does Obito, _Kamui_ will only be considered after Jiraiya has resorted to drastic force himself as was the case against Deidara, Kakuzu, and Pein. The problem is Jiraiya works on a much larger scale; a giant toad can be dropped on Kakashi with _Kuchiyose: Yatai Kuzushi_ and there isn't a thing that he can do about it because warping something that large requires a longer charge time than he will have available to him, and as a man with no remarkable durability, he will be killed by the toad landing. _Kamui_ _*can*_ do something similar for Kakashi, but I don't see him as that likely given its last-resort nature.



> Considering Kakashi without Kamui contended with multiple version-two Jinjuriki



A lot of people could replicate this. The only way this could be particularly impressive is if Kakashi sucked in the first place. If Kakashi and Gai are supposed to be able to hold their own against the Bijuu hunting members of Akatsuki, the _two of them together_ *should be expected* to do fine against three cloaked Jinchūriki. It isn't saying anything about them we didn't already know, and it'd honestly be a shame if they couldn't do it.

KN4 (nearly half of the chakra of the Bijuu that was wiping the floor with all six of the other Bijuus) was significantly stronger than those Jinchūriki anyway, and Jiraiya apparently dealt with it while in base without killing intent.



> contended with Rinnegan Obito,



Are you referring to the Taijutsu skirmish against psychologically defeated prior to the fight Obito without Kamui, Bijuus, Mokuton, or Rinnegan jutsus? Or are you referring to Kakashi having Naruto, Gai, and Bee's assistance earlier on?



> in the past Kakashi couldn't sustain the Sharingan for long-periods of time whilst using multiple high-chakra taxing jutsu, but the war has proved that Kakashi is longer hindered by these things.



I don't understand why people believe so much has changed with this war. The time between Pein's invasion and the war is like a couple days, and only Naruto grows that fast (because of new ascensions, not base improvements). Kakashi hasn't done anything in this war that he couldn't have done when he was having major trouble with two Pein paths and died despite back-up arriving (Jiraiya being able to go up against all six before he died). We even saw Kakashi worry about his chakra levels when using a _Kage Bunshin_ just like he did against Pein.

This really makes me think that the last fight was just Kakashi forcing out a couple more _Kamuis_ than his limits would normally allow against his _formerly thought to be deceased childhood friend Obito_ in order to save _the entirety of the world_ as opposed to one village. I'd think he could have done that earlier if put in this same situation. Kakashi will not press that hard against any of his other opponents, line of sight blocker Jiraiya included.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Never said Kakashi would use it right off the bat( or saw anyone in the thread post that beside PoW who I'm not sure if she was serious or not).
> 
> 
> 
> ...



He had no other way to get to deidara now did he ? That's a last resort isn't it 

He won't be able to use it cuz jiraiya would be fighting with clones and summons how would kakashi know it's the real jiraiya ? If he hits a clone he just Lost a bunch of chakra for no reason


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## GameAnPlay (Aug 25, 2013)

Kakashi takes this, he is a smarter, faster and has more jutsu. Now if Jiraiya started in sage mode, knows about Kamui and has the frogs summoned then it will be harder. Jiraiya has not seen Kakashi with Kamui, but he still knows a lot of Kakashi's abilities, he knows going too close will be bad as Kakashi is faster and better in taijutsu. Kakashi win's this more often than not. The only way Jiraiya can win is if he already is in Sage mode when the fight starts, he knows about Kamui and has his frogs, Gamabunta etc then it's possible but still low-mid difficulty


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Icegaze said:


> He had no other way to get to deidara now did he ? That's a last resort isn't it



Yes he did or did you miss the part where he talked about getting into CQC? 



> He won't be able to use it cuz jiraiya would be fighting with clones and summons how would kakashi know it's the real jiraiya ?



By this logic Jiraiya can't use any offensives attack against Kakashi. You do realize that Kakashi uses clones more then Jiraiya has been implied or showed to use clones so per your logic how would Jiraiya know which one Kakashi is the real Kakashi when he goes to attack? Flawless logic is flawless  



> If he hits a clone he just Lost a bunch of chakra for no reason



It gets rid of the clone and narrows down where the real one is out, not a lost of chakra for no reason.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Actually with the thought that Jiraiya should know about Kamui Kakashi stands no chance. Jiraiya summons Bunta and uses Toad Oil Flame Bullet and forces Kakashi to go underground. Jiraiya uses Swamp of the Underworld which might actually be worsened if Bunta spits water onto the mud. Kakashi's only way out is Raikiri  (questionable) which will take a decent amount of time still considering only his arm possesses the jutsu which allows Jiraiya the necessary time to enter SM. Its GG from there.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2013)

Kakashi has a variety of methods to engage Jiraiya with, Raikiri isn't the only option. Base Jiraiya cannot handle Kakashi alone, he needs Ma/Pa + Sage to put him down.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> Kakashi has a variety of methods to engage Jiraiya with, Raikiri isn't the only option. Base Jiraiya cannot handle Kakashi alone, he needs Ma/Pa + Sage to put him down.



Jiraiya does not need SM to win, SM only puts the nail in an already closing coffin. Kakashi essentially only has clones, Raikiri, and variants of Raikiri at his disposal. The moment Bunta comes out this fight is over because Kakashi cannot stop him considering he needed prep and still struggled to take off Gedo's face.


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## Icegaze (Aug 25, 2013)

What ennioa said 
jman takes it . bunts dropping on kakashi head is cab happen as quickly as kamui it's a summon 
Jman fights with summons all the time . Once bunts is out good luck landing kamui


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Jiraiya does not need SM to win, SM only puts the nail in an already closing coffin. Kakashi essentially only has clones, Raikiri, and variants of Raikiri at his disposal. The moment Bunta comes out this fight is over because Kakashi cannot stop him considering he needed prep and still struggled to take off Gedo's face.



Why would Kakashi need such a large Kamui when he has the ability to use a human size Kamui which he can use on Bunta?


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Why would Kakashi need such a large Kamui when he has the ability to use a human size Kamui which he can use on Bunta?



Because it creates a barrier around what he's looking at, whats he going to do warp off a human sized portion of Bunta's face? Yea, that would be like poking Bunta with a toothpick while Bunta throws his knife at Kakashi.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Because it creates a barrier around what he's looking at, whats he going to do warp off a human sized portion of Bunta's face? Yea, that would be like poking Bunta with a toothpick while Bunta throws his knife at Kakashi.



Can you show any evidence that would suggest that if Bunta got hit by Kamui he wouldn't go poof? I haven't seen him hit by any attack that made him lose any part of his body like Kamui would do to suggest so.


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## Kai (Aug 25, 2013)

IC Kakashi won't use Kamui anywhere near right away, so he and Jiraiya will have several elemental and possibly close quarters exchanges. Except once Jiraiya enters Sage Mode, Kakashi has no choice but to resort to Kamui, and when that happens J-man has absolutely no counter against the sheer execution speed of S/T. Copy ninja has the prowess to warp either of J-mans arms to shut down ninjutsu, the Elder Frogs to shut down Sage Mode, or Jiraiya's entire figure at the cost of almost all of his chakra. 

Kakashi wins high difficulty.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Can you show any evidence that would suggest that if Bunta got hit by Kamui he wouldn't go poof? I haven't seen him hit by any attack that made him lose any part of his body like Kamui would do to suggest so.



What part of his body? Kakashi would instantly tire himself out trying to warp a significant part of Bunta's body because again, he needed prep to warp the face off of Gedo Mazo and it still took a decent amount of time to do so. The most Kakashi can do to Bunta is a flesh wound with Kamui to be able to continue to fight afterwards. Bunta took Shukaku's chakra packed bullet to the chest as well as the push from Deva that broke all his bones without forcing him to disperse. Getting rid of Bunta alone would put Kakashi in a position of no longer fighting, he cant win this.


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## J★J♥ (Aug 25, 2013)

Is this really happening ? I miss times when one would get trolled to tears because of thread like this. 
Jiraya stomps.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> What part of his body? Kakashi would instantly tire himself out trying to warp a significant part of Bunta's body because again, he needed prep to warp the face off of Gedo Mazo and it still took a decent amount of time to do so.



Yes a part of his body. Not sure why but you seem to think that a part of someone's body automatically a huge chunk. 



> The most Kakashi can do to Bunta is a flesh wound with Kamui to be able to continue to fight afterwards.



And yet you still haven't shown any proof to suggest such. Can you show any summoning that lost part of it's body and didn't go poof besides Pain's dog to somewhat back up your claim that Bunta would still e around?



> Bunta took Shukaku's chakra packed bullet to the chest as well as the push from Deva that broke all his bones without forcing him to disperse. Getting rid of Bunta alone would put Kakashi in a position of no longer fighting, he cant win this.



That's pretty neat but those jutsu are different from what Kamui does and doesn't imply that just because he took them, he would take Kamui. Do you also think Blunt damage=Cutting/Piercing damage?


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## Kai (Aug 25, 2013)

The Deva Path alone, without Shinra Tensei, was physically outmaneuvering the attacks of three toad summons, one of them which included Gamabunta.

It's going to be incredibly difficult for Gamabunta to land a hit on someone of Kakashi's physical or jutsu execution speed.


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Yes a part of his body. Not sure why but you seem to think that a part of someone's body automatically a huge chunk.


If you think Kamui is going to force Bunta away then logic would dictate that Kakashi would have to warp away a significant portion of Bunta. Either you meant a large portion, you're trolling, or just dont know what you're talking about.



> And yet you still haven't shown any proof to suggest such. Can you show any summoning that lost part of it's body and didn't go poof besides Pain's dog to somewhat back up your claim that Bunta would still e around?
> 
> That's pretty neat but those jutsu are different from what Kamui does and doesn't imply that just because he took them, he would take Kamui. Do you also think Blunt damage=Cutting/Piercing damage?


You keep saying "a body part" but a body part can be anything from an arm to a toe; be specific so that I can be more clear on shutting down your argument since apparently you're not talking about a "huge chunk." The amount of damage is irrelevant because it is the summon itself that choses to poof away unless time runs out, what you're asking for makes no sense. Kakashi poking Bunta isnt going to force him to go away the same way punching him wouldnt because the pain is insignificant.

Considering Bunta has not reverse summoned himself after sustaining far worse damage than a flesh wound you cannot claim that he would somehow leave simply because its Kamui despite it being less damage.



Kai said:


> The Deva Path alone, without Shinra Tensei, was physically outmaneuvering the attacks of three toad summons, one of them which included Gamabunta.
> 
> It's going to be incredibly difficult for Gamabunta to land a hit on someone of Kakashi's physical or jutsu execution speed.



Deva has been shown to be significantly faster than many people in the manga and although he could not use ST he had the whole of Nagato's chakra focusing on that body. Kakashi has no jutsu that would help him in this situation because there is no water (even though it wouldnt matter) his Doton are effectivly useless, and his Raiton cant do anything.


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## Trojan (Aug 25, 2013)

SaCrEdpOoL said:


> Is this really happening ? I miss times when one would get trolled to tears because of thread like this.
> Jiraya stomps.



Indeed. 

Jiraya is at the very least one or two tiers above kakashi.


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## Bonly (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> If you think Kamui is going to force Bunta away then logic would dictate that Kakashi would have to warp away a significant portion of Bunta. Either you meant a large portion, you're trolling, or just dont know what you're talking about.



Logic would dictate that gaining a hole that does damage as well as allow increase loss of blood would mess up Bunta's performance and suggest that a significant portion of Bunta doesn't need to be Kamui'd.




> *You keep saying "a body part" *but a body part can be anything from an arm to a toe; be specific so that I can be more clear on shutting down your argument since apparently you're not talking about a "huge chunk."



No I don't keep saying that. If you read my post you will see that I'm not saying a body part, I'm saying a part of the body. Such as part of the arm but the the entire arm itself. A part of an eye but not the entire eye itself. A part of foot but not the entire foot, ect. Learn the difference.



> *The amount of damage is irrelevant* because it is the summon itself that choses to poof away unless time runs out, what you're asking for makes no sense. Kakashi poking Bunta isnt going to force him to go away the same way punching him wouldnt because the pain is insignificant.



Can't take you seriously any more.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Jiraiya does not need SM to win, SM only puts the nail in an already closing coffin. Kakashi essentially only has clones, Raikiri, and variants of Raikiri at his disposal. The moment Bunta comes out this fight is over because Kakashi cannot stop him considering he needed prep and still struggled to take off Gedo's face.


The Gama Trio are roughly the most ineffective summons, outside of causing large all around destruction they aren't useful at all. They cannot catch Kakashi, they can't even properly attack Kakashi and worse they can just be ensnared in genjutsu and tossed aside, just like Manda was by Sasuke. Jiraiya needs SM in order to have an advantage and even then he doesn't know about Kamui or the Raitan Variants. Raikiri Wolf or RKB plus underground Raikiri seal the deal. 

Jiraiya takes an advantage of some sort with Ma/Pa on the field, without them he loses. Kakashi is elementally superior to him, so he can negate much of Jiraiya's fire and earth jutsus with water and lightning. Kamui is a game ender even without Kakashi stands a decent chance against Jiraiya.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Aug 25, 2013)

By now, they should be roughly equal. 

With the supplied knowledge, Kakashi will realize that Jiraiya poses a huge threat, which compels him to employ Kamui into the fight - quicker than usual - and that technique spells defeat for the former (SM or not).


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## Ennoia (Aug 25, 2013)

Bonly said:


> Logic would dictate that gaining a hole that does damage as well as allow increase loss of blood would mess up Bunta's performance and suggest that a significant portion of Bunta doesn't need to be Kamui'd.


If we have already established that the most Kamui can do is the size of a human and continue fighting then how does Kakashi put a hole in Bunta that would equate to more than a flesh wound?



> No I don't keep saying that. If you read my post you will see that I'm not saying a body part, I'm saying a part of the body. Such as part of the arm but the the entire arm itself. A part of an eye but not the entire eye itself. A part of foot but not the entire foot, ect. Learn the difference.


You are not saying a body part you are saying a part of his body...you realize this is the same thing? The size of said body part is what differs in what you are saying, part of his foot is still a body part as is part of his arm. 

You literally said "whats he going to do warp off a human sized portion of Bunta's face" this does not equate to anything more than a flesh wound. Now you are talking about parts of his foot and parts of his arm which are MANY times larger than a human size not only in length but in thickness. There is no possible way for Kakashi to warp even a portion of Bunta's arm or leg and continue fighting where as Bunta has sustained far worse (breaking every bone in his body) without leaving the battlefield.



> Can't take you seriously any more.


I havent takes you seriously since you said Mei would rather die than defend herself; now you're telling me Kakashi can force Bunta to reverse summon by warping away a human sized portion of his face when just Bunta's upper lip is many times larger than a human. Kamui does absolutely nothing to stop Bunta unless Kakashi preps and he cannot continue to fight after such a feat anyways.

The only thing I need to see from you is proof that Kakashi can cause more pain than the breaking of all the bones in Bunta's body while also leaving Kakashi in a position to continue fighting. There is no such evidence; so he cant put down Bunta to even be thinking about Jiraiya.



Ryuzaki said:


> The Gama Trio are roughly the most ineffective summons, outside of causing large all around destruction they aren't useful at all. They cannot catch Kakashi, they can't even properly attack Kakashi and worse they can just be ensnared in genjutsu and tossed aside, just like Manda was by Sasuke. Jiraiya needs SM in order to have an advantage and even then he doesn't know about Kamui or the Raitan Variants. Raikiri Wolf or RKB plus underground Raikiri seal the deal.
> 
> Jiraiya takes an advantage of some sort with Ma/Pa on the field, without them he loses. Kakashi is elementally superior to him, so he can negate much of Jiraiya's fire and earth jutsus with water and lightning. Kamui is a game ender even without Kakashi stands a decent chance against Jiraiya.


Kakashi has not been shown to be as fast as Deva and Kakashi does not have as much skill with Sharingan as Sasuke does to say he can put Bunta in a genjutsu. He should know about Kamui because Guy basically had full knowledge on it, Naruto saw him use it, Kakashi and Jiraiya were constantly hanging out, and even A knew about Raikiri so Jiraiya should as well. 

Kakashi may have the elemental advantage but that does not make his jutsu useful at all. The moment Bunta is brought out this is over because he cannot stop Toad Oil Bullet he can only evade underground and then he gets hit with Yomi Numa boosted by Suion from Bunta so he electrocutes himself trying to use Raikiri to get out.


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## kakashibeast (Aug 25, 2013)

Kakashi is winnig the poll


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Aug 25, 2013)

kakashibeast said:


> Kakashi is winnig the poll



Polls don't really tell us anything. Your vote doesn't really matter to me if you can't put reasoning behind it.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 25, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Kakashi has not been shown to be as fast as Deva and Kakashi does not have as much skill with Sharingan as Sasuke does to say he can put Bunta in a genjutsu. He should know about Kamui because Guy basically had full knowledge on it, Naruto saw him use it, Kakashi and Jiraiya were constantly hanging out, and even A knew about Raikiri so Jiraiya should as well.
> 
> Kakashi may have the elemental advantage but that does not make his jutsu useful at all. The moment Bunta is brought out this is over because he cannot stop Toad Oil Bullet he can only evade underground and then he gets hit with Yomi Numa boosted by Suion from Bunta so he electrocutes himself trying to use Raikiri to get out.


False. 

Kakashi is actually faster than Deva Path, if Deva Path could actually dodge Kakashi's attacks he wouldn't resort to using ST or chakra control on so many occasions to nullify or divert his attacks, respectively. You can see examples if you re-read the Pain vs. Kakashi fight, there were numerous occasions when Pain was forced to use ST, out of necessity. Deva Path is actually slower in terms of overall speed, his reaction time is enhanced through extra vision, hence why he was doing so shitty against Naruto after he was reduced to just a single body.

Both Hebi Sasuke and Part 2 Kakashi have the same rating when it comes to genjutsu efficiency, so they are ranked in relatively the same category. However, I understand that ratings can be skewed but being in the same category allows him to be a caster much in the same respect as Sasuke, at the very least. Sasuke was able to fully exert control over Manda and bend him to his will, however, Kakashi just needs to cast a genjutsu on him not necessarily entirely control every aspect of Bunta/Ken/Hiro's actions, a feat which he should be able to accomplish without much of a problem,

While I do agree it would be preposterous for Kakashi to use a Suiton Sujinheki against Jiraiya to block that massive attack, I don't think Jiraiya has X-Ray vision, it even took Itachi a moment to realize that Kakashi had gone underground and he had a sharingan. If a huge snake can fool him with a substitution someone as small as Kakashi can definitely go underground without being noticed. 

He doesn't need a Raikiri to get himself out of Yomi Numa, as all Yomi Numa does is ensnare people and requires seals in order for Jiraiya to execute it properly. Kakashi can read those seals and react in time, whether he wants to dodge or counter-attack.

Lastly, if you weren't paying attention in the first few arcs of Naruto, Kakashi used Raikiri numerous times while being wet and didn't end up electrocuting himself, so I doubt that would even be a possibility, assuming he wanted to use it.


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## TheGreen1 (Aug 25, 2013)

Legendary Itachi said:


> No Kamui GG or Edo Madara would have been Kamui'ed by Kakashi.
> 
> Jiraiya has AOE attacks nearly as Kakuzu level, Giant summons, far better stamina and far better experience that he has tons of way to block Sharingan LOS before Kamui GG. By that same logic, Yomi Numa + FCD GG before Kakashi activates his MS lol.
> 
> I don't see how Kakashi counters Giant Summons. And SM Jiraiya says goodbye to Kakashi within seconds. Kakashi is never in Jiraiya's level no matter by portrayal or feats.



Please, he wouldn't even have to resort to that. As soon as Fukusaku and Shima are fused onto Jiraiya and they start using Frog Song, it's over for Kakashi. NOBODY has broken out of Sound Based Sage Mode Genjutsu by themselves. (I count the Pain Bodies as separate people controlled by one person and the other bodies who weren't trapped, had to help the ones who were.)


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## Ennoia (Aug 26, 2013)

Ryuzaki said:


> False.
> 
> Kakashi is actually faster than Deva Path, if Deva Path could actually dodge Kakashi's attacks he wouldn't resort to using ST or chakra control on so many occasions to nullify or divert his attacks, respectively. You can see examples if you re-read the Pain vs. Kakashi fight, there were numerous occasions when Pain was forced to use ST, out of necessity. Deva Path is actually slower in terms of overall speed, his reaction time is enhanced through extra vision, hence why he was doing so shitty against Naruto after he was reduced to just a single body.


Deva actually tagged Kakashi already and in their entire fight Deva hardly moved at all so it cannot really be used as evidence. Preta path dodged a blow from SM Naruto, Human path caught Jiraiya's punch, Deva blocked a kick from Naruto when Naruto's foot was right by his head, and Deva dodged FRS twice, these feats all far surpass anything Kakashi has shown (not saying Kakashi is slow but lets be real here). I should also mention that seeing something and reacting to it are not the same, linked eyesight dosent actually really help if you cant react to the situation.



> Both Hebi Sasuke and Part 2 Kakashi have the same rating when it comes to genjutsu efficiency, so they are ranked in relatively the same category. However, I understand that ratings can be skewed but being in the same category allows him to be a caster much in the same respect as Sasuke, at the very least. Sasuke was able to fully exert control over Manda and bend him to his will, however, Kakashi just needs to cast a genjutsu on him not necessarily entirely control every aspect of Bunta/Ken/Hiro's actions, a feat which he should be able to accomplish without much of a problem


While I agree that Kakashi is adept at genjutsu my issue is him using it on a summon for even a significant amount of time despite not showing that kind of ability. Sasuke was shown breaking out of Tskuyomi so we know what he is capable of as far as Sharingan, Kakashi's best feat is knocking out ANBU captains and while that is notable they do not compare to the point where Kakashi would be able to manipulate one summon to say three.



> While I do agree it would be preposterous for Kakashi to use a Suiton Sujinheki against Jiraiya to block that massive attack, I don't think Jiraiya has X-Ray vision, it even took Itachi a moment to realize that Kakashi had gone underground and he had a sharingan. If a huge snake can fool him with a substitution someone as small as Kakashi can definitely go underground without being noticed.
> 
> He doesn't need a Raikiri to get himself out of Yomi Numa, as all Yomi Numa does is ensnare people and requires seals in order for Jiraiya to execute it properly. Kakashi can read those seals and react in time, whether he wants to dodge or counter-attack.
> 
> Lastly, if you weren't paying attention in the first few arcs of Naruto, Kakashi used Raikiri numerous times while being wet and didn't end up electrocuting himself, so I doubt that would even be a possibility, assuming he wanted to use it.


Of course he would have to wait for the flames to die down but given that there is only one other place to go (down) Yomi Numa would be the obvious move once he sees Kakashi is gone and/or a hole in the ground. Now if we agree that Kakashi is going to be underground he would not be able to see the seals (I question his ability to follow Jiraiya's seals anyway). Kakashi also used Raikiri/Chidori the first time on the bridge and he was not wet, I dont remember seeing him being wet when using the jutsu either and I should add that being wet and being surrounded by water are not the same. Not to say that he cant get out by doing the same thing Sasuke did when he had C4 in him but he will take substantial damage.


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## TheGreen1 (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Deva actually tagged Kakashi already and in their entire fight Deva hardly moved at all so it cannot really be used as evidence. Preta path dodged a blow from SM Naruto, Human path caught Jiraiya's punch, Deva blocked a kick from Naruto when Naruto's foot was right by his head, and Deva dodged FRS twice, these feats all far surpass anything Kakashi has shown (not saying Kakashi is slow but lets be real here). I should also mention that seeing something and reacting to it are not the same, linked eyesight dosent actually really help if you cant react to the situation.



While I agree with the point you're ultimately making saying that Kakashi may not be as fast as SM Jiraiya, I'd like to point out that Preta Path didn't dodge that blow, as it was a Frog Kata which put Preta Path out of the game with a single strike. (Until Hell Realm resurrected the body.))
Also, where did Human Path catch a punch?
In the manga, we certainly saw Human path catching something... namely SM Jariaya's Kick to the face


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## Ennoia (Aug 26, 2013)

TheGreen1 said:


> While I agree with the point you're ultimately making saying that Kakashi may not be as fast as SM Jiraiya, I'd like to point out that Preta Path didn't dodge that blow, as it was a Frog Kata which put Preta Path out of the game with a single strike. (Until Hell Realm resurrected the body.))
> Also, where did Human Path catch a punch?
> In the manga, we certainly saw Human path catching something... namely SM Jariaya's Kick to the face



He was hit by Kata after he dodged the initial punch, Kata surrounds the fist with Senjutsu chakra so Naruto would have had no reason to purposely miss Preta. Human also caught the punch here.


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## TheGreen1 (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> He was hit by Kata after he dodged the initial punch, Kata surrounds the fist with Senjutsu chakra so Naruto would have had no reason to purposely miss Preta. Human also caught the punch here.



Fine, I'm man enough to admit that yes, the actual fist did miss the face, but I still count it as a blow that knocked him out due to how Frog Kata's work.

I also concede that Human Path did catch a fist the second time. Still, the first time he caught a foot to the face that blinded him.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 26, 2013)

Ennoia said:


> Deva actually tagged Kakashi already and in their entire fight Deva hardly moved at all so it cannot really be used as evidence. Preta path dodged a blow from SM Naruto, Human path caught Jiraiya's punch, Deva blocked a kick from Naruto when Naruto's foot was right by his head, and Deva dodged FRS twice, these feats all far surpass anything Kakashi has shown (not saying Kakashi is slow but lets be real here). I should also mention that seeing something and reacting to it are not the same, *linked eyesight dosent actually really help if you cant react to the situation.*


Kakashi didn't bother with that because he was going for a headshot, at that point it was a chess game trade. Kakashi was willing trade a minor injury for a kill move, he just didn't count on the fact that Nagato could channel his chakra through to control him.

As for speed feats, Preta Path dodged a blow because of shared vision, Human Path dodged a blow because of shared vision and Deva Path did have the good will knowledge that the FRS technique was going to be coming at him in both instances. Shared vision allows the Pain bodies to react faster because they aren't reliant on one set of eyes hence they perceive things quicker, which is why they were able to muster such awesome feats of speed (e.g. blocking Jiraiya's fastest sage technique).

However, the point of comparison was Deva Path's speed to Kakashi's speed and while engaging Kakashi in fight, Deva Path was forced to use his ST more than he could simply dodge. That puts Deva Path on the defensive, Jiraiya matched up against Kakashi would also be on the defensive, because Kakashi would be a step ahead via sharingan precog.



Ennoia said:


> While I agree that Kakashi is adept at genjutsu my issue is him using it on a summon for even a significant amount of time despite not showing that kind of ability. Sasuke was shown breaking out of Tskuyomi so we know what he is capable of as far as Sharingan, Kakashi's best feat is knocking out ANBU captains and while that is notable they do not compare to the point where Kakashi would be able to manipulate one summon to say three.


Again, I explicitly stated that he doesn't have to manipulate any of them for extensive periods of time - he can just cast a genjutsu that would distract them for a bit via a shadow clone or a RKB.



Ennoia said:


> Of course he would have to wait for the flames to die down but given that there is only one other place to go (down) Yomi Numa would be the obvious move once he sees Kakashi is gone and/or a hole in the ground. Now if we agree that Kakashi is going to be underground he would not be able to see the seals (I question his ability to follow Jiraiya's seals anyway). Kakashi also used Raikiri/Chidori the first time on the bridge and he was not wet, I dont remember seeing him being wet when using the jutsu either and I should add that being wet and being surrounded by water are not the same. Not to say that he cant get out by doing the same thing Sasuke did when he had C4 in him but he will take substantial damage.


By then it would be too late for Jiraiya, because the technique you mentioned is larger in size and would take a larger time to die down. Moreover, as evidenced in his fight against Pain, Jiraiya does tend to drop his guard occasionally, more so when he has support. Jiraiya won't be prepping another attack while Kakashi is underground because he has yet to verify the first technique actually worked.


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## sakurakunoichi (Sep 22, 2013)

really hard to say :/ 
I would say jiraya because he is a sannin and has sage mode


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## Hamaru (Sep 22, 2013)

Kakashi's base stats have jumped tremendously during this war. He won't have any problems against base Jiriaya. Kamui is the most broken jutsu in the fight, which belongs to Kakashi as well. I'd highly favor Kakashi to win. The only way I would give the win to Jiriaya is if he manages to enter SM and use Sage song.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 22, 2013)

Kakashi can keep up with 6th Gated Gai. 

 Obviously Base Jiraiya isn't doing anything to Kakashi.

 As for Kamui, lol, he can definitely Kamui Jiraiya's summons and even Ma and Pa if need be.

 Jiraiya does however, have a lot of ninjutsu techniques and Katon will be troublesome, however, Kakashi's Suiton techniques could come in handy.

 It all comes down to him being able to Kamui Sennin Jiraiya or him being able outlast SM JIraiya.


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## Miyamoto Musashi (Sep 22, 2013)

NarutoX28 said:


> Kakashi can keep up with 6th Gated Gai.
> 
> Obviously Base Jiraiya isn't doing anything to Kakashi.
> 
> ...



I think Kakashi would warp away Jiraiya before he could get into Sage Mode.


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 22, 2013)

^ Also a possibility.


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