# The Gates, Gai and the Fastest Shinobi in the World Debate



## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2015)

*Base Gai*
Understanding the gates would be useless, if we didn't touch upon Base Gai. For all intents and purposes, Gai is purely a taijutsu user with some proficiency in ninjutsu. In the third databook, his base stats were shown to be:His skill in taijutsu, overall speed, strength and stamina are all the highest they can be. However, despite being rated in roof tier in this category, the question remains, how do we differentiate Gai from other shinobi who have similar rankings? A simple way to put this in perspective is taking into account Gai's one-dimensional fighting style. His sole focus is only in taijutsu, making him better than other taijutsu shinobi who devoted their times to other arts such as ninjutsu and genjutsu. 

Another detail about the gates which I believe wasn't explored by Kishi but rather implied to a certain extent; the attacks, "Morning Peacock", "Afternoon Tiger", "Evening Elephant" and "Night Guy" seem to be jutsu unique to only Might Guy. In fact, I believe these techniques were invented by Might Guy and were practiced in based and gated forms prior to being used in actual combat, with the exception of the 8th Gate. This is further supported when Lee recognizes Gai's Evening Elephant.

*Comparing Gated Users*
A distinction that has been left out is that not all users of the gates are created equally, thus it explains why Might Dai with the fully released form of the 8 Gates couldn't kill all of the Shinobi Swordsmen, as Fugaki survived.  

*6th Gated Gai:*
The 6th Gate was first shown against Shouten Kisame, where it was established that Gai exceeded Kisame's physical statistics completely in this form. Kisame was unable to react in time in order counter Gai's onslaught. This gate is one of the few gates in which the user retains a mild aura that envelops his body. When Gai entered this form, Kisame was unable to do anything to Gai, in fact, he was completely outclassed.

Unlike at the beginning of Part 2, where Gai used this for the first time, he required an extensive amount of time in order to rest after it's initial usage. During the War Arc, it was shown that Gai no longer suffered from this issue and was able to use the 6th Gate at various points throughout the War Arc, without an ill consequences. 

This version (6th Gated) of Gai, during the War Arc, was shown to be faster than anything the Gokage have displayed (individually). The best piece of evidence we have to indicate that Gai, is at this enormous level of speed is when he saved Kakashi from a truthseeker (by getting in front of him and moving him out of the way), when it was essentially point blank at Kakashi's face. This feat is also replicated by 6th Gated Lee, when he saves Gai from a similar situation to that of Kakashi. This is a much better feat than the Raikage avoiding Amaterasu.

Furthermore, this version of Gai was also formidable enough to deal with multiple V2 Jinchuriki's. 

*7th Gated Gai:*
This technique was first displayed against Kisame, although, it *wasn't* necessary to use this technique in order to defeat Kisame. However, Gai was concerned about letting the information escape, which is why he opted to use this due to the wide-range of it's attack. After this usage, it is next seen toppling ET Madara's Susano'o and subsequently fighting PST Juubi Jin Madara. I'll touch upon the latter two to provide some context and accurately rate the feats.

*War Arc Gai/Edo Madara vs. Gai/Bee*
Most people tend to forget that Gai was beyond exhausted when he faced Edo Madara, throughout the war he hardly caught break. He engaged the 7SSOM, afterwards engaged several bijuu in the V2 Form and eventually facing Obito at that time. It wasn't until the shinobi alliance returned that Gai was healed for the first time. So, it makes sense that while he was fighting Edo Madara, he couldn't muster up his full strength in the 7th Gates.

*7th Gated Gai vs. PST Madara*
There has been considerable debate as to nature of this little duel, but a good place to start is how the skirmish ended with Gai on the floor. Gai's loss in the skirmish was due to Madara's power/strength not being outperformed in the category of speed. In fact, throughout it's entirety, Gai kept Madara at bay until he stopped to use Afternoon Tiger. This momentary break, gave Madara the time needed to get in a hit simultaneously while taking the hit from Afternoon Tiger. If Gai had launched the attack from a further distance, he wouldn't have had to worry about Madara's counterattack. 

There are a number of reasons to support Gai's speed here and the biggest one is Madara not using Limbo to defend himself, since it has been his go to defense mechanism since he was brought back to life. This is further supported, when he opted to use it against Kyuubi Sage Mode Naruto but not 7th Gated Gai. 

As powerful of an attack as AT is, PST Madara was able to fend it off by blocking it with his staff, however, the force of the attack did end up increasing the distance between Madara and Gai. If Gai was durable enough to tank the hit with the staff, he would have been able to react to the truthseeker on his own. Furthermore, Gaara himself mentions how "inhuman" Gai's movements are and this is coming from a person who stopped V2 Raikage mid-attack. 

*8th Gate:*
The biggest difference this gate made was giving Gai the strength needed to damage/harm Madara. In the 7th Gate, Gai already possessed the speed to keep Madara at bay, but lacked the strength/power to inflict any actual damage. For the record, in this gate he also did get a speed boost but what was necessary was the strength/power boost he got, this is what made Gai effective. For the most part, this gate lived up to it's reputation in that Gai essentially repeated what he did to Shouten Kisame to Madara, however, fell short of killing him due most probably to Madara's several extra buffs (e.g. Juubi Jin, Rikoudo Chakra).

After the first round of Evening Elephant, Gai rendered Madara immobile and inflicted some damage to him, making it virtually impossible for Madara to conjure up a counterattack. At the very least, Gai was able to get another round of Evening Elephant (off panel) which is demonstrated by Madara's even more disheveled state prior to the Night Guy attack.

Of all Guy's attacks, Night Guy was the only one that possessed enough potential to kill him, it's quite possible that had he proceeded with that attack from the beginning or didn't opt to use a second wave of EE, it would have done the trick. 

*Fastest Shinobi in the World Debate*
There are definite exceptions to Ei's Fastest Shinobi in the World hype, as generally among his kage peers, he is. However, there are obvious standout objections such as KCM Naruto, SM Kabuto, Base Minato, MS Obito, 6th Gated Gai and perhaps 6th Gated Lee. As for whether Ei knew about Gai's Gates when he made the statement, the simple answer is no. It is a forbidden technique that is so rare, that even Minato as Hokage didn't know that Gai could use it, despite the fact that Gai was a jounin under his command. Even though an alliance was formed, information was shared in a need to know type of basis, they are still shinobi and it's one thing to work together and another to expose themselves entirely. 

Gai's shinobi peers from Konoha knowing about his 7th Gate attack range is special situation due to the fact that they were classmates/students. There was a reason why Gaara, even as the commander of the shinobi alliance army, didn't know the full workings of Gai's jutsu. Assuming that the kages from other villages would know it better than the Hokage is pushing the envelope quite a bit.

As far as the manga is concerned, 6th Gated Gai should put Gai faster than any of the Gokage as well most of the Narutoverse, barring rikoudo shinobi  and 7th/8th Gated Gai ends up holding the fastest shinobi title.


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2015)

tl:dr





> Minato as Hokage didn't know that Gai could use it,



Minato died when Gai was 14.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Minato died when Gai was 14.





Gai was trained and prep for gates from the time he began his ninja training


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2015)

And? 

starting training at the time is not equal to being able to use it, especially the advance ones. Lee started with the
gates since he was young as well. He reached the age of 19 and he still couldn't open more than only 6 gates
at the time. 

Also, Minato was never a commander over Gai (well except when he was the Hokage). The other time he was
leading Kakashi's team (no Gai), or the one he was leading when showing in A's flashback, which has no Gai either.

and we don't even know how old he was in that page of yours anyway.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2015)

Gai saving Kakashi from truth seeker isn't comparable to Raikage evading Amaterasu wtf is that ? 

First off, it is an interception feat, so it doesn't count. Or you may argue that 5 gates Lee(forgot which gate he was @) is as fast as Gai with 6th gate as he saved Gai from a similar situation.

Second off, Amaterasu is faster than truth seeker.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 30, 2015)

I can somewhat understand 7th Gate putting Gai at the "Fastest" plateau. But 6th? 

7th Gate Gai might physically be the fastest(out of War Arc Alliance) but A's enhanced reflexes, shunshin mastery and biju reserves to pump into shunshins puts him above in terms of burst speed imo. Don't see 7th Gai evading Amaterasu _after_ it was fired and leaving an after-image behind.


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## FlamingRain (Jul 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I can somewhat understand 7th Gate putting Gai at the "Fastest" plateau. But 6th?
> 
> 7th Gate Gai might physically be the fastest(out of War Arc Alliance) but A's enhanced reflexes, shunshin mastery and biju reserves to pump into shunshins puts him above in terms of burst speed imo. Don't see 7th Gai evading Amaterasu _after_ it was fired and leaving an after-image behind.



I second this.


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## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Lee was in the 5th Gate when he saved Gai, he only opened up the 6th after telling Gaara that it was as high as he could go.

Also, most likely Gai isn't considered the fastest alive because the jutsu he uses to become the fastest is a forbidden jutsu, so it's frowned upon, kinda like steroids.


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## Icegaze (Jul 30, 2015)

Actually lee might have been in less than 5th Gate maybe second 
The red pigmentation on the skin only comes up by the 5th gate 

Lee skin didn't change colour at the time 

 6th gate Gai showed nothing to suggest he is remotely as fast as A


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2015)

I think his skin start to change colour at the 3rd Gate.


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## iJutsu (Jul 30, 2015)

8th gate speed = can forcibly bend space.

Unless you got a feat from anyone else that does the same, he's the fastest.

Minato tried to blitz Madara with ftg and got wrecked.


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## Hand Banana (Jul 30, 2015)

What's the point of bragging of a skill that brings you closer to death?


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2015)

iJutsu said:


> 8th gate speed = can forcibly bend space.
> 
> Unless you got a feat from anyone else that does the same, he's the fastest.
> 
> Minato tried to blitz Madara with ftg and got wrecked.



You don't know how FTG works, do you?
The moment Minato teleported to his Kunai the FTG finished, the rest was Minato'h physical speed.

That's why he was able to out-speed Guy with FTG
V2


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## ChaddyMan1 (Jul 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I think his skin start to change colour at the 3rd Gate.



Yeah it was 3rd, but the hair flying up and the eye color change happens at the 3rd Gate as well.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gai saving Kakashi from truth seeker isn't comparable to Raikage evading Amaterasu wtf is that ?
> 
> First off, it is an interception feat, so it doesn't count. Or you may argue that 5 gates Lee(forgot which gate he was @) is as fast as Gai with 6th gate as he saved Gai from a similar situation.
> 
> Second off, Amaterasu is faster than truth seeker.


The difference is the truth seeker was less than 1 m away from Kakashi's face and Gai beat it to the punch. That should put him, at the bare minimum as fast as Raikage, if not faster. 



Alex Payne said:


> I can somewhat understand 7th Gate putting Gai at the "Fastest" plateau. But 6th?
> 
> 7th Gate Gai might physically be the fastest(out of War Arc Alliance) but A's enhanced reflexes, shunshin mastery and biju reserves to pump into shunshins puts him above in terms of burst speed imo. Don't see 7th Gai evading Amaterasu _after_ it was fired and leaving an after-image behind.



Gai left multiple after-images in his fight with Madara, more so than Ei. 



Much to the surprise of Gaara who even stated that it was inhuman.



And Gaara was able to stop the Raikage in his V2 form.



			
				Hussain said:
			
		

> And?
> 
> starting training at the time is not equal to being able to use it, especially the advance ones. Lee started with the gates since he was young as well. He reached the *age of 19* and he still couldn't open more than only 6 gates at the time.
> 
> ...


He has a forehead protector, so at the very least he's 7.

Lee was 17 when he mastered the 6th gate.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference is the truth seeker was less than 1 m away from Kakashi's face and Gai beat it to the punch. That should put him, at the bare minimum as fast as Raikage, if not faster.


No. 
Like I said, it is an interception feat.

Also even if you try to legitamize it, then I could argue that Gai was an inch away from Kakashi, outside the panel.



Ryuzaki said:


> Much to the surprise of Gaara who even stated that it was inhuman.



Since when "inhuman" means "faster  than A ?"

Gai and Lee with gates destroy their surroundings with each move they make. That doesn't mean they are faster than A, unless you will argue that 5 gated preskip Lee is also faster than A.



Ryuzaki said:


> And Gaara was able to stop the Raikage in his V2 form.



scans ?


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## Altair21 (Jul 30, 2015)

If we're talking physical speed here then Gai would certainly have an argument. If one is including teleportation then Gai has no argument.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No.
> Like I said, it is an interception feat.
> 
> Also even if you try to legitamize it, then I could argue that Gai was an inch away from Kakashi, outside the panel.


Yeah, but he's still coming from another battlefield and making the call to rescue Kakashi from certain death all in the manner of a split second.

Plus, the distance between Kakashi and the truthseeker was about an arms length away. That's too close, even if you assume it to be an interception feat.


Grimmjowsensei said:


> Since when "inhuman" means "faster  than A ?"
> 
> Gai and Lee with gates destroy their surroundings with each move they make. That doesn't mean they are faster than A, unless you will argue that 5 gated preskip Lee is also faster than A.


The difference is Gaara was present with Raikage and Gai, but he stopped the Raikage and mentioned Gai as inhuman.



			
				grimmjowsensei said:
			
		

> scans?


It's in the original post, I made a link to it.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The difference is the truth seeker was less than 1 m away from Kakashi's face and Gai beat it to the punch. That should put him, at the bare minimum as fast as Raikage, if not faster.


You'd have to prove the Truth Seeking Ball is faster than Amaterasu to assert that, you know that right Ryuzaki? What feats put the TSB above, in terms of speed, over Amaterasu?




> Gai left multiple after-images in his fight with Madara, more so than Ei.


...those aren't afterimages. That's Kishimoto showing Guy trying to land a blow but keeping failing.

An 'after image' is a transparent image left after a character uses speed. None of those attempted strikes are transparent. 


> Much to the surprise of Gaara who even stated that it was inhuman.


Even though he didn't land a blow. Its a classic Worf barrage.


> And Gaara was able to stop the Raikage in his V2 form.


While A was in free fall, not using the maximum amount of speed.

And the manga flat out tells you that unless you're a Juubi Jin, Kurama empowered, full Eight Gates empowered, or Six Paths empowered, A was the fastest shinobi in the world.


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## Alex Payne (Jul 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Gai left multiple after-images in his fight with Madara, more so than Ei.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't think that was the same kind of after-images. I didn't even think they were after-images - just Kishi showing Gai's assault like that. But you may be right there.

And I suspect that Kishi made Gaara say what he did as a throwback to the first usage of Gates.



Regardless - extreme constant physical speed + high-end taijutsu being called inhuman doesn't necessarily mean it is faster than Raiton Shunshin. Inhuman could mean a lot of things. Raikage's insane shunshin is just a fast dash. A simple movement. While Gai was busting out some l33t moves while evading Staff and Orbs.


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## Icegaze (Jul 30, 2015)

A hand was also an arm length away from sasuke before suigetsu intercepted it

guess suigetsu is faster than RCM A


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## Trojan (Jul 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He has a forehead protector, so at the very least he's 7.
> 
> Lee was 17 when he mastered the 6th gate.



- How so? 
- I did not say when he mastered it. I said when he was 19 (in the last), his highest gate is still
the 6th gate. Minato was surprised that Gai can use all 8 Gates, and since we know for a fact
that when Minato died Gai was only 14 years old, taking Minato's lack of knowledge about Gai's
Gates after 17 years of his death is not the smartest thing to do to discredit living people's knowledge
of it.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> tl:dr
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ei said he was the fastest now when Minato is dead, KCM Naruto proved himself to be faster than Ei, yet Ei said *he* was the fastest. That statement was false and proves nothing.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 30, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, but he's still coming from another battlefield


Yes and he was an inch away from Kakashi when the truth seeker was an arms length away from him. So Gai was closer to Kakashi than the truth seeker.
How do I know this ? 
I don't.
Just like you don't know where exactly he was when truth seeker was about to hit Kakashi.




> Plus, the distance between Kakashi and the truthseeker was about an arms length away. That's too close, even if you assume it to be an interception feat.



It is an interception feat, so it is moot.
But If you wanna play, then like I said, Gai was already an inch from Kakashi when truth seeker was arms length away.
You can try to refute this but you can't.



> The difference is Gaara was present with Raikage and Gai, but he stopped the Raikage and mentioned Gai as inhuman.


Gaara never stopped Raikage, he intercepted his kick wihch has nothing to do with his top speed. 
And He was amazed @ *Gai's strength* as well as his speed. 
Gaara's comment doesn't validate anything.



> It's in the original post, I made a link to it.


I think you are referring to what I mentioned above.
Not only it is an interception feat, but it also isn't impressive, even as an interception feat because he simply intercepted Raikage on a free fall.



StarWanderer said:


> Ei said he was the fastest now when Minato is dead, KCM Naruto proved himself to be faster than Ei, yet Ei said *he* was the fastest. That statement was false and proves nothing.



Naruto became faster than/on par with A during the course of their fight.

Statement wasn't false, your way of thinking is.


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## Bonly (Jul 30, 2015)

No Gai is not the fastest, that title belongs to Naruto


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## StarWanderer (Jul 30, 2015)

> Naruto became faster than/on par with A during the course of their fight.
> 
> Statement wasn't false, your way of thinking is.



If we dont take on account 7-8 Gate Gai.


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## LostSelf (Jul 30, 2015)

Hussain said:


> tl:dr
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ei's not Shikaku. Shikaku had the info. Ei didn't .

Something to add to this post, Gai was only threatened to use the 8th gate when the Bijuus gathered charging a Bijuudama.

Before that, it looked like Kakashi and him were holding their own against multiple Bijjus (6 vs 3).


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## Jad (Jul 30, 2015)

Notice how Gaara never complimented Madara, rather Gai. For me that is another notch or reason why I believe that scene was to show Gai forcing Madara back and is faster than A.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

Jad said:


> Notice how Gaara never complimented Madara, rather Gai. For me that is another notch or reason why I believe that scene was to show Gai forcing Madara back and is faster than A.


...that was the first time Gaara ever seen the Seventh Gate. He didn't even know about if so of course he was impressed. Still doesn't change the fact he didn't land any blow and was tossed aside like a fly.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 30, 2015)

7th Gated Gai is faster, I'd argue 6th Gated Gai is about equal to his speed (outpacing Truthseekers, reacting/blitzing two V2 Sharingan Jins). Overall though, even 6th Gated Gai is superior to Ei in taijutsu (close quarter skill, punch speed that lights air on fire) so he'd outperform him.

If you think Ei is faster, you won't change your mind. 

If you think Gated Gai is faster, you won't change your mind.

The number of threads in the past months have shown this, no one seems to be moved by the either's feats/quotes/hype presentations, so I don't understand why people continue to repost them. 



> Second off, Amaterasu is faster than truth seeker.


This is the type of logic that spews out of this kind of debate, complete and utter idiocy.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

So what jutsu IS faster then? We need solid proof of Gudodama being faster than Amaterasu to make a comparison.


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 30, 2015)

Goudama nearly hit a guy being warped by Double Kamui from 70m out [1] [2] [3], they both reacted with Kamui, the problem is a single Kamui wasn't fast enough to escape them, even from a distance that far away. 

Amaterasu isn't faster than Kamui bro, Obito literally couldn't warp away by himself because the Truthseekers were too fast for him to get out unscathed [1]. His own words [2]

Senjutsu Chakra Rinnegan Obito should easily be capable of Kamuing himself away before Amaterasu hits him from 70m.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 30, 2015)

Didn't Amaterasu _tag_ Obito and he had to use Kamui to get rid of it after?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 30, 2015)

From point blank, and he wasn't expecting it to happen, because he wasn't in combat, and Sasuke didn't have Mangekgou Sharingan as far as he knew (he just watched him fight Itachi with 3-toma only). Obito was in open combat (focused/guard up) with Madara, had a Rinnegan (sensory ability) and Senjustu Chakra (Partial Rikudo Form), and knew about Truthseekers (literally used them himself)- and he still couldn't escape them with Kamui. 

MS Obito is inferior to Senjutsu Chakra Rinnegan version in all regards. 

If you want to dig deeper, V2 Ei avoided it from 10m without knowledge Sasuke had it, and Killer Bee reacted/blocked it with a tail in BM when he didn't know he had it. Do you think Ei is avoiding Kamui, or BM Bee is reacting and blocking it?

Hebi Sasuke avoided Amaterasu with knowledge Itachi could use it.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 30, 2015)

Ah, another one of these stupid threads.

Madara walking backwards does not show speed equivalent or superior to V2 Ei. Not even close. How can Gai be moving at high speed while simultaneously throwing punches and kicks (so he can kick while running full speed lol, how physically implausible). How can anyone think that entire encounter was anywhere near V2 Ei. I cant believe people think Madara hopping backwards signifies speed above v2. The sheer idiocy.

People are comparing the speed of truth seeking balls to Amaterasu... I just cant anymore.

People still trying to invalidate the statement the author made through the words of a character. As if kishi can tell us another way. I wish all of you would just stfu already. I continue to wait for the manga panel or databook statement that labels gai as the fastest shinobi. I'll wait till someone provides it.

smh at the poll question -__- who comes up with this stuff?


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## DaVizWiz (Jul 30, 2015)

Oh, A Rinnegan Juubi Jinchuriki's primary technique being superior to a Mangekyou Sharingan users secondary technique, one that Madara (a previous MS user and said Rinnegan Juubi Jinchuriki) referred to as "not even worth acknowledging"? 

How dare I suggest such a thing.

.. 
gotta put this one down, his condition is clearly irreversible




> I just cant anymore.


By god, feel free to "not", I hope you're done.

The Idiocy protruding from your text is legendary.


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## Ryuzaki (Jul 30, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I don't think that was the same kind of after-images. I didn't even think they were after-images - just Kishi showing Gai's assault like that. But you may be right there.
> 
> And I suspect that Kishi made Gaara say what he did as a throwback to the first usage of Gates.


I just figured his words would carry more weight this time around since he's seen speedsters like Ei and Madara perform at their peak.



Alex Payne said:


> Regardless - extreme constant physical speed + high-end taijutsu being called inhuman doesn't necessarily mean it is faster than Raiton Shunshin. Inhuman could mean a lot of things. Raikage's insane shunshin is just a fast dash. A simple movement. While Gai was busting out some l33t moves while evading Staff and Orbs.


Perhaps, but in both fights, Madara was on the defensive and I cannot overlook that part. I'll give Madara the points in strength, because he was genuinely stronger (physically) than Gai but I do believe Gai had him beat in the speed category.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> You'd have to prove the Truth Seeking Ball is faster than Amaterasu to assert that, you know that right Ryuzaki? What feats put the TSB above, in terms of speed, over Amaterasu?


Amaterasu was fast enough for Gaara to stop, thereby at best I can say is that Ei saw the flames appearing and sidestepped it. The attack does have limited range, as I believe the databook rated it for short distance.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...those aren't afterimages. That's Kishimoto showing Guy trying to land a blow but keeping failing.
> 
> An 'after image' is a transparent image left after a character uses speed. None of those attempted strikes are transparent.


It's an after image of Gai attempting to and hitting Madara.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Even though he didn't land a blow. Its a classic Worf barrage.



He was able to get two hits on Madara, but as I stated to everyone else, I don't believe he had the strength (physically) to harm Madara, which is why even though Gai was faster, Madara needed an opening to exploit, in order to hit him (i.e. the simultaneous hit from Madara's staff and Gai's AT).





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> While A was in free fall, not using the maximum amount of speed.


Although, I shouldn't but I'll A/D with this, I believe that Ei while in his V2 cloak should be moving just as fast throughout. But neither one of us will convince the other of the opposite. So A/D.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And the manga flat out tells you that unless you're a Juubi Jin, Kurama empowered, full Eight Gates empowered, or Six Paths empowered, A was the fastest shinobi in the world.


Highly debatable, 7th Gated Gai as I have stated forced Madara into a conflict where Madara needed to hit Gai in a simultaneous attack in order break free. 7th Gated Gai likely had Madara beat in speed but lacked the strength to deal any lasting damage, hence the necessity for the 8th Gate.

In both versions of the fight, Madara was pushed to a point where he could not retaliate in the 8th Gates, however, in the 7th Gate, Gai was just weak enough where Madara could, but needed to exploit an opening, which he did when Gai attempted to use Afternoon Tiger.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes and he was an inch away from Kakashi when the truth seeker was an arms length away from him. So Gai was closer to Kakashi than the truth seeker.
> How do I know this ?
> I don't.
> Just like you don't know where exactly he was when truth seeker was about to hit Kakashi.
> ...



Yeah, but logic dictates the feat in of itself speaks volumes for his speed. He was able to get in between the attack and pull another person out of the way of the attack, when it was point-blank at his face. The same type of attack that Obito and Kakashi had difficulty avoiding/warping away from. And to put that in perspective, both Raikage and Sasuke were much further apart than Kakashi was from the truthseeker. 

Furthermore, Amaterasu has a spawning distance limit, so it's likely the flames appeared in front of Raikage before he reacted to it. Something Gai would be able replicate in 6th Gate or higher, otherwise by that logic Gaara wouldn't have been able to defend against Amaterasu either.





RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Ah, another one of these stupid threads.


Ahh, another one of these posters with stupidly long names. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> Madara walking backwards does not show speed equivalent or superior to V2 Ei. Not even close. How can Gai be moving at high speed while simultaneously throwing punches and kicks (so he can kick while running full speed lol, how physically implausible). How can anyone think that entire encounter was anywhere near V2 Ei. I cant believe people think Madara hopping backwards signifies speed above v2. The sheer idiocy.


In both 7th Gated and 8th Gated scuffles, Madara was on the defensive because he couldn't react to Gai's speed, therefore required an opening in Gai's CQC fighting style in order to take him out. Otherwise, he would have done it sooner, much sooner.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> People are comparing the speed of truth seeking balls to Amaterasu... I just cant anymore.


The distance that Kakashi was from the truthseeker far shorter than the one Raikage was at from Sasuke. In fact, Amaterasu has been defended by Gaara at a similar distance to the Raikage, so yeah, it's slower.



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> *People still trying to invalidate the statement the author* made through the words of a character. As if kishi can tell us another way. I wish all of you would just stfu already. I continue to wait for the manga panel or databook statement that labels gai as the fastest shinobi. I'll wait till someone provides it.
> 
> smh at the poll question -__- who comes up with this stuff?



*Are you talking about the one Itachi made about the Akatsuki getting solo'd by Jiraiya? Yeah, I know right, people should just accept the truth already.*


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Amaterasu was fast enough for Gaara to stop, thereby at best I can say is that Ei saw the flames appearing and sidestepped it. The attack does have limited range, as I believe the databook rated it for short distance.


Gaara blocked Enton at long range. A avoided it at short, something that was supposed to be impossible. And Gudodama, for all their advantages, were never said to be fast after all.



> It's an after image of Gai attempting to and hitting Madara.


No, its not. Guy's body is solid there, not transparent like what A did. In essence, an after image is a mirage.




> He was able to get two hits on Madara, but as I stated to everyone else, I don't believe he had the strength (physically) to harm Madara, which is why even though Gai was faster, Madara needed an opening to exploit, in order to hit him (i.e. the simultaneous hit from Madara's staff and Gai's AT).


Guy isn't faster. And he didn't land any hits. Did Hinata land any blows on Deva Path despite the 'impact strikes'? No. Guy wasn't fast enough to land a blow or strong enough to damage Madara.




> Although, I shouldn't but I'll A/D with this, I believe that Ei while in his V2 cloak should be moving just as fast throughout. But neither one of us will convince the other of the opposite. So A/D.


How would he be just as fast when, given he's off the ground, he'd be subjected to gravity's pull and fall at a rate he can't control?



> Highly debatable, 7th Gated Gai as I have stated forced Madara into a conflict where Madara needed to hit Gai in a simultaneous attack in order break free. 7th Gated Gai likely had Madara beat in speed but lacked the strength to deal any lasting damage, hence the necessity for the 8th Gate.


Its not debatable at all. Even Madara wasn't impressed and berated Guy for not using the Eighth Gate on him. Only Gaara, who hadn't seen the Seventh Gate was impressed even though it did nothing. 

Madara as a _Juubi Jin_ being beaten in speed by Seventh gated Guy is not only laughable, Ryuzaki, its classic wank. Madara was toying with him, dodged every attack. And wasn't even impressed by Guy's speed, it wasn't until the Eighth Gate he was.


> In both versions of the fight, Madara was pushed to a point where he could not retaliate in the 8th Gates, however, in the 7th Gate, Gai was just weak enough where Madara could, but needed to exploit an opening, which he did when Gai attempted to use Afternoon Tiger.


You're vastly overestimating Guy here. Madara was never 'pushed to the point' by anything Seventh Gated Guy did. Guy didn't land any blow. Even if he did, it'd have done SHIT to Madara. Madara if he was serious, like he was against Guy in the EIGHTH Gate, or against Naruto and Sasuke, would have just slashed Guy in half.



Ryuzaki said:


> *Are you talking about the one Itachi made about the Akatsuki getting solo'd by Jiraiya? Yeah, I know right, people should just accept the truth already.*


Jiraiya could have beaten Nagato, Akatsuki's strongest member with prior knowledge. And Itachi can't order other Akatsuki pairs to help him, so don't know what you're going for here.

Manga and Word of God both said A was the fastest shinobi in the world barring Minato and Naruto. There's no wiggle room there other than bias for favorite characters. Unless your Kurama Powered, Hiraishin user, Juubi Powered, or all gates opened, you aren't faster than A in the Narutoverse.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Ei's not Shikaku. Shikaku had the info. Ei didn't .
> 
> Something to add to this post, Gai was only threatened to use the 8th gate when the Bijuus gathered charging a Bijuudama.
> 
> Before that, it looked like Kakashi and him were holding their own against multiple Bijjus (6 vs 3).



And Tsunade also does not know about a Shinobi under her commend?
This whole Gai wank is absurd, and you know it. 

Gai & Kakashi did not do anything to the Bijuus tho.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And Tsunade also does not know about a Shinobi under her commend?
> This whole Gai wank is absurd, and you know it.
> 
> Gai & Kakashi did not do anything to the Bijuus tho.



Can you prove she has ever saw Gated Gai in action? Because the fact she was Konoha's Hokage proves nothing. 

And realy, a guy with an immensely huge amount of Minato wank in his posts thinks Gai wank is absurd. Well, Kishimoto himself made 7 Gate Gai so fast. 7 Gate Gai's feat is beyond anything Minato could accomplish, when an amped vertion of Minato (SM Minato) couldnt react to Juubidara. He couldnt teleport away from Juubidara in order to prevent him from chopping his arm off. He got his arm chopped off, and couldnt react to 2 kicks after that. He couldnt teleport away to prevent all of this, thus he couldnt react, although he was amped by Sage Mode. 

So, the fastest shinobi, you say? Ei was the fastest after Minato have died, you say?

7 Gate Gai is the fastest among non-godlikes. Period.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah, but logic dictates the feat in of itself speaks volumes for his speed. He was able to get in between the attack and pull another person out of the way of the attack, when it was point-blank at his face.


How so ? I am saying that Gai was 1 inch away from Kakashi... so he was closer than the truth seeker orb. 



> The same type of attack that Obito and Kakashi had difficulty avoiding/warping away from. And to put that in perspective, both Raikage and Sasuke were much further apart than Kakashi was from the truthseeker.


Warping is slow. Konan was able to exploit it with his explosive tags.

Amaterasu is faster than Truth seeker. Amaterasu doesn't travel, but it appears. So wouldn't  make a difference if A was 1 meter away from Sasuke, it would be the same feat.



> Furthermore, Amaterasu has a spawning distance limit, so it's likely the flames appeared in front of Raikage before he reacted to it. Something Gai would be able replicate in 6th Gate or higher,


Pure conjecture.



> otherwise by that logic Gaara wouldn't have been able to defend against Amaterasu either.


Gaara didn't defend from amaterasu, it was enton and it was offpanel.



StarWanderer said:


> If we dont take on account 7-8 Gate Gai.



Gai had used 7 gates @ that point. When A said he was the fastest, Gai with 7 gates was included, 8 gates wasn't because it wasn't used.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Oh, A Rinnegan Juubi Jinchuriki's primary technique being superior to a Mangekyou Sharingan users secondary technique, one that Madara (a previous MS user and said Rinnegan Juubi Jinchuriki) referred to as "not even worth acknowledging"?
> 
> How dare I suggest such a thing.
> 
> ...



Look at this fool, learn to read. Of course tsb are superior to amaterasu. But highlight to me where i said it isnt. Being faster doesnt mean its a superior technique, maybe learn to read first instead of changing what i wrote.

I said amaterasu is faster, not superior. It spawns on the target, tsb travels. Its been intercepted by Lee who was probably in 5th gates or below. Its been intercepted by kunai throws from both kakashi and lee. Yet your retarded mind is trying to compare that speed to amaterasu, bitch log off.


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## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> In both 7th Gated and 8th Gated scuffles, Madara was on the defensive because he couldn't react to Gai's speed, therefore required an opening in Gai's CQC fighting style in order to take him out. Otherwise, he would have done it sooner, much sooner.
> 
> 
> The distance that Kakashi was from the truthseeker far shorter than the one Raikage was at from Sasuke. In fact, Amaterasu has been defended by Gaara at a similar distance to the Raikage, so yeah, it's slower.
> ...



Being on defensive doesnt indicate speed. Madara was overwhelmed with gais taijutsu ability, not speed. Keep trying, The scan clearly shows Gai throwing punches and kicks, not forcing him back with speed. Same as hinata vs deva path pain.

Not even gonna respond to this, other users have already addressed this.

No such comment was made. Look how pathetic you are, stop avoiding clear manga statements. Your damage control is unbearable. Stick to Eis statement, instead of brining up something (which you have misinterpreted completely) that doesnt relate to anything ive said. Im still waiting for your proof and db/manga statements on gais speed.

Again i ask you to provide this otherwise stfu


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## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Gai had used 7 gates @ that point. When A said he was the fastest, Gai with 7 gates was included, 8 gates wasn't because it wasn't used.



Base Gai could compete with Obito in a taijutsu, who's striking speed was so fast KCM Naruto, who outpaced Ei's fastest punch, couldnt get away from his line of attack. Later, 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him, made a Hirudora punch which Juubidara couldnt prevent and after that, Juubidara barely reacted to Hirudora's side effect - defused air in a form of Tiger. That Ei's statement, who has never seen Gai in action, was contradicted by manga later. Hell, even Edo Madara, a shinobi far slower than his alive Juubi Jin counterpart and 7 Gate Gai, could react to V2 Ei's speed. 

Ei has nothing on 7 Gate Gai. He gets knocked out cold by Hirudora to his jaw.

But... If Ei is faster than 7 Gate Gai due to that statement, then Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Base Gai could compete with Obito in a taijutsu, who's striking speed was so fast KCM Naruto, who outpaced Ei's fastest punch, couldnt get away from his line of attack.


Nah.



> Later, 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him


Pressure ? No.
Madara one shot him.


> , made a Hirudora punch which Juubidara couldnt prevent and after that, Juubidara barely reacted to Hirudora's side effect - defused air in a form of Tiger.


Thats not what happened.
Gai used hirudora, and Madara intercepted it, and oneshot Gai. Gai was saved by Lee and Madara was unphased.



> That Ei's statement, who has never seen Gai in action, was contradicted by manga later.


where ? When did A fought Juubidara ? Or when was Gai stated ot be faster than A with 7 gate s? 


> Hell, even Edo Madara, a shinobi far slower than his alive Juubi Jin counterpart and 7 Gate Gai, could react to V2 Ei's speed.


But Madara failed to react 7 gated Gai ? When  ?



> Ei has nothing on 7 Gate Gai. He gets knocked out cold by Hirudora to his jaw.


Sure, if you believe that Hirudora is faster than Amaterasu(it isn't) or If you think Kisame is more durable than A... But then you have absolutely  no evidence.



> But... If Ei is faster than 7 Gate Gai due to that statement, then Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama.



Hirzuen was stated to be stronger than Hashirama before Hashirama was properly introduced. 
These two situations can't be compared at all.

But man, if you want Gai to be faster than A so bad, to the extend that you will ignore the manga, hell, be my guest. 
Honestly, this is not something I care so much about.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

> waiting for the next thread about how 5th Gate Gai is also the fastest at this point.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2015)

5 gated Lee saved Gai from Truth seeker, making him on par with 6 gated Gai's speed who is faster than V2 A apparently. 
:ignoramus

Shit man, BD had its lows, but this is just another level.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> And Tsunade also does not know about a Shinobi under her commend?
> This whole Gai wank is absurd, and you know it.



Yeah, you already know why Tsunade wouldn't get in a discussion. Or would you enter a discussion like that if the fate of the world is unknown?

First was Ei having info, and now is Tsunade not interrupting to enter a discussion about something irrelevant when the fate of the world was in danger. Hussain, Hussain .
I will stop when the wank be greater than base Minato speedblitzing Hashirama and killing him like a fodder from 50 meters .


> Gai & Kakashi did not do anything to the Bijuus tho.



Just like the Gokage did nothing by themselves to their 5 and weaker (than the Bijuu) Susano'o clones. Yet, "holding their own" against them (wich were way less aggresive) is considered a "feat".

So yeah, Gai held his own against 2 full Bijuus and only, but only felt threatened when the Bijuus gathered and were about to wipe everything out. And even then, he was worried by Kakashi only .


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

- What are you talking about? Tsunade was amazed that there is someone who can match the Raikage, and
she was amazed that there is someone who can match him in his *V1* if anything
her reaction, and knowledge of Gai indicate that Gai's speed is not even on par with V1 A!  

- I don't want to go off-topic. Hashirama showed what he is worth in the War along side the other so called "god of shinobi" 

- Please burden me, but haven't they destroyed all 25 of those clones? 




Grimmjowsensei said:


> 5 gated Lee saved Gai from Truth seeker, making him on par with 6 gated Gai's speed who is faster than V2 A apparently.
> :ignoramus
> 
> Shit man, BD had its lows, but this is just another level.


sounds legit!


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## Amol (Jul 31, 2015)

Man,I would have understand if you were making arguments for 7th Gate but seriously 6th?
A was the fastest person untill Naruto stole that title from him.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - What are you talking about? Tsunade was amazed that there is someone who can match the Hokage, and
> she was amazed that there is someone who can match him in his *V1*




She was amazed that Naruto was doing such. Not anyone. Wasn't Killer Bee reacting to the Raikage's V1? Is base Bee faster than 7th gated Gai too? .



> if anything
> her reaction, and knowledge of Gai indicate that Gai's speed is not even on par with V1 A!



That's not true. Even i was surprised that Naruto could keep up with the Raikage. COnsidering he only relied on TNJ  or PNJ like a rock being a clone to win . Tsunade being surprised that Naruto could react doesn't mean other can't .

Or her reaction could also say that she didn't knew how fast Gai is. Because if the thinks Gai's slower than V1. She's wether not counting gates or is as wrong as Zetsu when he said Itachi was invincible.


> - I don't want to go off-topic. Hashirama showed what he is worth in the War along side the other so called "god of shinobi"



So? The Minato wank is that he can speedblitz Hashirama and kill him from 50 meters. The Itachi wank is that he kept up with KCM Naruto (somehow seriously) and could defeat tje Gokage/Sannin. One Tsunade wank was that she outpaced V2 lightened Ei (It seems Ei's statement was a lie there).

I'll stop wanking Gai when he surpasses those 3 characters. However, i'm not wanking him .


> - Please burden me, but haven't they destroyed all 25 of those clones?



They did it together. And because they weren't killed before, as the clones were surrounding Gaara, Mei and Tsunade, who had troubles standing up, and didn't kill them. And they were 5. Gai and Kakashi were 2, fighting Bijuus that were kicking Hachibi's ass. Bijuus that has comparable power to PS.


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

- When did B react to A in term of speed? 
- Nah, the context is obvious Lost 
It was as such because no other one can, it was even downright stated directly!  
That as obvious as it can get!

- Gai has long surpassed all of tho. there was a thread about how 7th Gate Gai is stronger than Hashirama
and he can defeat all 5 Kages, no? 

- So, they did? 
Good.


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## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> The Minato wank is that he can speedblitz Hashirama and kill him from 50 meters.



Minato doesnt have feats to say such a thing. Hashirama's reflexes and movement speed are faster than those of Minato.



> The Itachi wank is that he kept up with KCM Naruto (somehow seriously) and could defeat tje Gokage/Sannin.



Itachi kept up with a weaker KCM Naruto due to KCM Naruto's shadow clones, active at that moment.



> One Tsunade wank was that she outpaced V2 lightened Ei (It seems Ei's statement was a lie there).



Holy mother of Karin! That wank is the king of wanks. bama


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## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - When did B react to A in term of speed?
> - Nah, the context is obvious Lost
> It was as such because no other one can, it was even downright stated directly!
> That as obvious as it can get!
> ...



Hiruzen is stronger than Hashirama?


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - When did B react to A in term of speed?



Could keep up with him with a Lariat. Ei in V1 and Bee in base.
Stopped V1 Ei's punch against Naruto.
Trapped Ei with a tentacle when he was going to charge again with V1.
I have one of Sasuke dodging him. Need me to bring it too? .


> - Nah, the context is obvious Lost



Context showed Gai's 7th gate speed a lot of chapters after. Just like it showed Naruto's superior speed after Ei's.



> It was as such because no other one can, it was even downright stated directly!
> That as obvious as it can get!



Therefore you're saying that V1 Ei is faster than 7th gated Gai, who blasted Madara's striking speed from some hundred meters while Gai is tired out,when the same Ei couldn't touch Madara from an inch. Or is Hirudora incredibly faster than Ei?

Yeah, obvious Hussain .


> - Gai has long surpassed all of tho. there was a thread about how 7th Gate Gai is stronger than Hashirama



Show me the thread. And this is not surpassing. At the very least, Gai's not killing Hashirama like a fodder. It might've surpassed Itachi in that comparison. Only that one. Because i don't need to tell you who's the king. And with Gai you have like 1-2 people saying that. With Itachi and Minato is their 99% of the fandom .

And no, it doesn't surpassed the Tsunade one.


> and he can defeat all 5 Kages, no?
> 
> - So, they did?
> Good.



With the 8th, he can easily . Still not enough to compare with fodderizing Hashirama, considering Hahirama would stomp the 5 kages .


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## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

- Nothing of which has to do with speed really. 
- Nah, Narudo only got that speed after A's statement. Gai showed the 7th Gate before that.
- Yes, A is faster than Gai up to the 7th Gate. The moment you're talking about Madara was being held by BM Narudo, and he was going to attack Narudo. Just like how Madara couldn't reacts to all of the 5 Kages attack the whole time. 

- Not in a mode to search sorry. 
You can ask Goose if you want, assuming he still remember, since he tried to close the threads several times
but the Gai fan-boy insisted that Gai's feat makes him superior to Hashirama in the 7th Gate. 

- We are not talking about the 8th Gate tho. Although even the 8th Gate is overrated in that regard (Automatic win)
when we know that the 7 swordsmen survived it (at least some of them). 

As for Hashirama, I still don't know why do you keep bringing him up, but the thing with him is that his fans keep
with the 1 dimensional line of thinking which is; more firepower = automatic win. That's as sad as thinking Deidara
would destroy itachi because he has more firepower. 

To each battle its "conditions" so to speak, and as such even strong folks can get fodderized. Take Naruto and Sasuke for example against someone as pathetic as Shin. It's just Hashirama's fanboys don't get that, or they don't want to get it, and assume he is unbeatable, even tho he got his ass handled to him in the War (at his time when he got killed)


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## Mercurial (Jul 31, 2015)

Ei self believed to be the fastest after Minato's death. Sadly he was just wrong, like 48394384293 other people who believe their defense was absolute, they were the strongest, the fastest, the most powerful, that they had the best jutsu and what not.

Gai's feats are far better with 7th Gate, I mean far far far better than V2 Ei, and V1 Ei is nothing special. Gai is faster than max speed Ei even with the 6th Gate, I really don't see the problem.


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## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> - Nothing of which has to do with speed really.



Of course it does. Go try to stop a car once it began to move fast. 


> - Nah, Narudo only got that speed after A's statement. Gai showed the 7th Gate before that.



Gai never moved an inch in the 7th gate. And he was underwater.


> - Yes, A is faster than Gai up to the 7th Gate. The moment you're talking about Madara was being held by BM Narudo, and he was going to attack Narudo. Just like how Madara couldn't reacts to all of the 5 Kages attack the whole time.



That's not the way i'm explaining it. Madara was mid-strike, after that panel, Gai made the handseal (In other words, Madara was closer to finish that mid-strike) and Gai outpaced him from hundred of meters.

Gai's speed outsped Madara's. Ei was an inch from Madara's face and Madara could lift his arm to block.  So, the comparison is outspeeding Madara's arms. Where Gai horribly destroyed Ei here because he was injured, tired from having more days than the Gokage fighting, beaten up and restrained. And still did what Ei couldn't from a stupidly closer distance .



> - Not in a mode to search sorry.
> You can ask Goose if you want, assuming he still remember, since he tried to close the threads several time
> but the Gai fan-boy insisted that Gai's feat makes him superior to Hashirama in the 7th Gate.



I don't want to bother Goose. I'll look for it myself. But like i said, maybe one-two. Heck, maybe three. Compare that to other fandoms. Like i said, we wouldn't be debating this if the one that "surprised Madara with speed" were Itachi or Minato. And that, my friend, you know it.

That alone should give you an example of who's more wanked .



> - We are not talking about the 8th Gate tho. Although even the 8th Gate is overrated in that regard (Automatic win)
> when we know that the 7 swordsmen survived it (at least some of them).



The gates doesn't bring you to an exact power level. It multiplies your level. Gai in 6th gate is not the same, as, say, base Naruto in 6th gate considering base Gai is faster, more reflexive, etc, etc. Dai was already weaker than his son in base. Therefore his 8th gated form is not as powerful as Gai's. Red gate is not overrated. Is being placed below Juudara (only because of the time limit). And above anybody else below Juudara.



> As for Hashirama, I still don't know why do you keep bringing him up, but the thing with him is that his fans keep
> with the 1 dimensional line of thinking which is; more firepower = automatic win. That's as sad as thinking Deidara
> would destroy itachi because he has more firepower.



I did it because of how hypocrite are people being. I mean, Itachi and Minato fans shouldnt even dare to think of calling a character "wanked" or saying that the Battledome is low because someone is saying Gai is X powerful. Because we all know how despised Itachi was for the very reason os senseless wank. And Minato is not far behind.

That's why i bring him here. Firepower became everything in the manga since PS, though. But i mean, is ok to say Minato can beat Hashirama. But to say he's going to fodderize him .



> To each battle its "conditions" so to speak, and as such even strong folks can get fodderized. Take Naruto and Sasuke for example against someone as pathetic as Shin. It's just Hashirama's fanboys don't get that, or they don't want to get it, and assume he is unbeatable, even tho he got his ass handled to him in the War (at his time when he got killed)



Because they use what's being used in this thread too. SOmetimes, an impressive feat is overlooked or called bullshit depending on the character that does it. I already explained that in the other thread.

Sai blitzed Deidara. But since he's Sai, it's not taken in consideration and a lot of debates and posible drawbacks (Deidara being weaker, distracted, etc) are coming. But if you replace Sai with a Kage, then no debate here. A clear blitz.

It's the same thing with Gai. Gai made the feat. But how can Gai be so fast and strong? He couldn't have surprised Juudara because his general level is in Kakashi's (Who, let's say, has an instant Kamui that can kill Madara if PNJ is not involved). But if we put Minato/Itachi or heck, even Hashirama there, then the feat is valid.

People don't see Hashirama being fodderized by Minato here, no matter the condition (Unless he's sleeping and Minato is on his face).


----------



## Trojan (Jul 31, 2015)

Why is this getting longer so much? I did not agree to that! 

1- A & B were running in the opposite directions, so they will obviously meet lol (about the Lariato)
2- That was not its first used (not to them at least). Regardless tho, it was used, and it's included.
3- no idea from where you came up with "hundred of meters." especially when the Databook gave it
short to mid range (0 to 10 meters at most). 

4- Itachi is utmost wanked, I never denied that. However, in the recent years Gai and Kakashi are the most wanked.
5- We don't know if Dai's level was weaker than Gai's level tho, nor do we know by how much (if he is). 
6- I don't know how saying X is wanked makes Y being wanked any better to be honest. Gai situation is even worst
because he only has 1-shot, and people go to give him free other shots, and ignore direct statements.

I have never been a fan of disregarding statements because of whatever horseshit the fandom of that character bring to justified their own biases and agenda towards their favourite character. It always ends up in an endless loop. Same with Gai, itachi, Tobirama and so on. 

-
I don't care what people think of those stuff honestly. As far I remember I have never taken those feats from Sai or Kankuro of being superior to Sasori and Deidara, especially Deidara who did not lose anything for being an ET. 

-
Gai's feats has been explained to his fans numerous times, just like how Sasuke with Kakashi, or Hinata with Pain.
No one said it's nothing, but it also does not mean he is better than someone who was directly stated to be faster. Plain simple. 

-
I don't care what they see and what they don't really. People don't see Tobirama getting his ass wiped from Kin/Gin, does not change the fact that They wiped the floor with him twice, does it? 

People did not see that Minato can teleport Naruto and B's combined TBB at the time, did not stop him from
teleporting a far superior attack. (The Juubi's strongest TBB)

Did anyone see Karin being able to destroy the Buddha? I bet no one saw that coming either. 

Heck, even your beloved Gai, back then when people were wanking BM Naruto and say he can destroy the whole villages/SA by himself, I was the only one who disagreed with that and said that GAI is stronger than him with the 8th Gate based on Kakashi's part 1 statement. They were saying "retecons" and the other BS they usually say, or being feats whores or whatever...

In the Kage Arc they were saying either A or B can defeat Minato. Yet, Minato schooled both of them, and they still don't give that to him because "we don't know how he can hurt them" Does not change the fact that he schooled both of them

and so one and so forth.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

Kishimoto makes those statements for *characters*. Raikiri19 said the right thing. That is why character's statements cant always be taken seriously.

Obito called Pain invincible. Was he invincible? NO. And later it was confirmed by manga itself. Iruka said that Hiruzen was the most powerful among Hokage. Was he? NO. Was Ei the fastest at the moment of his fight with KCM Naruto? NO. Gai could use 8 Gate at that moment, he just didnt do that. Maybe Ei is faster than 8 Gate Gai? Of course not. 

Ei's V2 speed was outpaced by KCM Naruto. Edo Madara blocked his V2 punch. Yet 7 Gate Gai pressured a Juubi Jin, who blitzed SM Minato before that and was faster than a Juubi Jin who cut KCM Minato's hand off. 

Ei is clearly much, much slower than 7 Gate Gai. 



> As for Hashirama, I still don't know why do you keep bringing him up, but the thing with him is that his fans keep
> with the 1 dimensional line of thinking which is; more firepower = automatic win. That's as sad as thinking Deidara
> would destroy itachi because he has more firepower.



Is Hiruzen stronger than Hashirama?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Gai's feats has been explained to his fans numerous times, just like how Sasuke with Kakashi, or Hinata with Pain.



Hinata and Pain is one thing. I have never thought that Deva Path is a super speedster anyway. And i think it is a good feat for Hinata, realy. 

Juubidara and Gai is one thing. It is pretty much visible that Juubidara wasnt playing with him due to his face expressions and other things.

But Kakashi and Sasuke? Do you understand that it was an exam? *AN EXAM*. Not a fight to the death, but an exam, where Joinin wasnt trying to fight his students.



> No one said it's nothing, but it also does not mean he is better than someone who was directly stated to be faster. Plain simple.



According to manga, it does. But guess what - Hiruzen is the strongest among Hokage (stronger than Minato by the way), Pain is invincible and Ei, although his V2 speed was tracked by both KCM Naruto and Edo Madara, is faster than 7 Gate Gai, who demonstrated speed even faster than that of KCM Minato and SM Minato. Alright. Keep trolling, Hussain, keep trolling.



> I don't care what they see and what they don't really. People don't see Tobirama getting his ass wiped from Kin/Gin, does not change the fact that They wiped the floor with him twice, does it?



We dont know anything about their fight, Kin/Gin could use some kind of super-ability, or artifact, or something else. We dont know, at all.



> did not stop him from
> teleporting a far superior attack. (The Juubi's strongest TBB)



Which has been slown down by Hachibi.



> feats whores



Well, i see. No surprise you dont care about feats much, although, in fact, it is one of the main things in debates.



> Minato schooled both of them



Young Bee reacted to Minato's striking speed and stopped him from striking Ei and later put a kunai in order to prevent Minato from stabbing him. He schooled Ei, but Bee?



> and so one and so forth.



Yeah, you keep trolling.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Gaara blocked Enton at long range. A avoided it at short, something that was supposed to be impossible. And Gudodama, for all their advantages, were never said to be fast after all.


The distance between Gaara and Sasuke is similar to the one between Sasuke and Raikage, here. Gaara was able to block it with his sand. The databook lists the technique is limited to short-range at best and afterwards the technique has to be guided to it's intended target.

Amaterasu either



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, its not. Guy's body is solid there, not transparent like what A did. In essence, an after image is a mirage.


The image of Gai clearly shows multiple people and immediately after that panel, you see Gaara stating his speed is inhuman. Those are after-images of Gai's attack pattern.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Guy isn't faster. And he didn't land any hits. Did Hinata land any blows on Deva Path despite the 'impact strikes'? No. Guy wasn't fast enough to land a blow or strong enough to damage Madara.


As far as it looks, there are two hits that Gai connects with in that scan, which shows that in the category of speed, Madara was bested but as I stated, Gai lacked the strength to do any damage.

There are a number of reasons as to why this substantiates Gai's feat, first and foremost is Madara opting to hit him mid-attack as in that spurt he could not find an opening to hit him at all. The second, why didn't Madara use Limbo? It's been his defensive go to technique when he feels overwhelmed and we all agree that Madara was taken off guard here and Gai capitalized on it. 

Again, unlike with the 8th Gate, Gai doesn't have the strength to do damage here.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> How would he be just as fast when, given he's off the ground, he'd be subjected to gravity's pull and fall at a rate he can't control?


The higher up he is the faster he is accelerating. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Its not debatable at all. Even Madara wasn't impressed and berated Guy for not using the Eighth Gate on him. Only Gaara, who hadn't seen the Seventh Gate was impressed even though it did nothing.


He did that before Gai attacked him and immediately realized that he underestimated Gai's speed. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara as a _Juubi Jin_ being beaten in speed by Seventh gated Guy is not only laughable, Ryuzaki, its classic wank. Madara was toying with him, dodged every attack. And wasn't even impressed by Guy's speed, it wasn't until the Eighth Gate he was.
> 
> You're vastly overestimating Guy here. Madara was never 'pushed to the point' by anything Seventh Gated Guy did. Guy didn't land any blow. Even if he did, it'd have done SHIT to Madara. Madara if he was serious, like he was against Guy in the EIGHTH Gate, or against Naruto and Sasuke, would have just slashed Guy in half.


In both scenarios, Madara was on the defensive and had to exploit an opening in Gai's CQC combat, otherwise, as shocked as Madara was, he would have retaliated sooner.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya could have beaten Nagato, Akatsuki's strongest member with prior knowledge. And Itachi can't order other Akatsuki pairs to help him, so don't know what you're going for here.
> 
> Manga and Word of God both said A was the fastest shinobi in the world barring Minato and Naruto. There's no wiggle room there other than bias for favorite characters. Unless your Kurama Powered, Hiraishin user, Juubi Powered, or all gates opened, you aren't faster than A in the Narutoverse.


Jiraiya would have got his salad tossed all over the Narutoverse if tried to take on all the Akatsuki at once, there wouldn't be enough left of him. Please, that was an obvious retcon and likewise this statement of Ei's has multiple exceptions.





Grimmjowsensei said:


> How so ? I am saying that Gai was 1 inch away from Kakashi... so he was closer than the truth seeker orb.


Logic contradicts this, if he was 1-inch away, then we there would have a been a panel showing him coming in. But there wasn't.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Warping is slow. Konan was able to exploit it with his explosive tags.


The difference is the Obito here has senjutsu chakra and had both a rin'nengan and a sharingan. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Amaterasu is faster than Truth seeker. Amaterasu doesn't travel, but it appears. So wouldn't  make a difference if A was 1 meter away from Sasuke, it would be the same feat.
> 
> Pure conjecture.


According to the databook it is a short-range offensive technique, anything out of that range would require to to be guided to the target. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gaara didn't defend from amaterasu, it was enton and it was offpanel.


From the looks of it, he did:

Amaterasu either



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Gai had used 7 gates @ that point. When A said he was the fastest, Gai with 7 gates was included, 8 gates wasn't because it wasn't used.


I don't think it is, there are numerous shinobi that could out perform him in speed, V2 Bee being another one. SM Naruto could likely sense the danger and replicate what he did against the 3rd Raikage. SM Kabuto dodged one of Sasuke's arrows. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> *Being on defensive doesnt *indicate speed. Madara was overwhelmed with gais taijutsu ability, not speed. Keep trying, The scan clearly shows Gai throwing punches and kicks, not forcing him back with speed. Same as hinata vs deva path pain


Being on the defensive is fine, but he was unable to react to anything Gai did until Gai paused for a moment. Gai created the opening for AT, which allowed Madara to hit him. That's not something you can overlook, Madara was being overhwhelmed by Gai, so much so that he didn't even have a chance to use Limbo. 



RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> No such comment was made. Look how pathetic you are, stop avoiding clear manga statements. Your damage control is unbearable. Stick to Eis statement, instead of brining up something (which you have misinterpreted completely) that doesnt relate to anything ive said. Im still waiting for your proof and db/manga statements on gais speed.
> 
> Again i ask you to provide this otherwise stfu



Oh right, so because I have a different point of view, I'm all of sudden damage control. I've already established that several statements made by the authors aren't absolute and not only that, there are always exceptions to the rule. 7th Gated Gai being one of them.

I've already proven Gai's speed here, so you can either disprove the statement, or stfu


----------



## LostSelf (Jul 31, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why is this getting longer so much? I did not agree to that!



You did when you said V1 was faster than Gai .


> 1- A & B were running in the opposite directions, so they will obviously meet lol (about the Lariato)



And they met at the same time. Had Bee not reacted and Ei would've crushed him. They didn't crash, they moved pretty equaly.


> 2- That was not its first used (not to them at least). Regardless tho, it was used, and it's included.



How it's included when he only showcased a jutsu that proved to be incredibly faster than Ei's V1?.



> 3- no idea from where you came up with "hundred of meters." especially when the Databook gave it
> short to mid range (0 to 10 meters at most).



Hirudora, 10 meters? Gai was ant-size from Naruto when he shot Hirudora. So far that Hachibi looked as small as fuck. That's surely much more than 10 meters. And even if it weren't, it outclassed V1 Ei's surprise assault. It put his speed to shame.



> 4- Itachi is utmost wanked, I never denied that. However, in the recent years Gai and Kakashi are the most wanked.



Because Itachi died, and Kishimoto began powerscaling both. Kakashi has been using Kamui like nothing, when healed, he Kamui'd Hachibi back and forth like shit. What would you expect to see here, in a forum not driven by PNJ? An OOC Kakashi can take out a lot of characters stronger than him. And aside from Gai defeating the Gokage, or Hashirama. Most of the posters puts him at a reasonable level.

And still people see that as wanking.


> 5- We don't know if Dai's level was weaker than Gai's level tho, nor do we know by how much (if he is).



Gai was Chuunin when Dai was still a Genin. When Dai teaches him Hachimon, he says is the only thing he has to teach. Aside from that, Kakashi's explanation made it clear. Or you think Genin Gaara would've defeated 5th gated Gai like he did to Lee?


> 6- I don't know how saying X is wanked makes Y being wanked any better to be honest. Gai situation is even worst
> because he only has 1-shot, and people go to give him free other shots, and ignore direct statements.



I'm not talking about making it better. I'm saying some people needs to remember how much of a wanker they were before making fun of the new "wankers". Or you tell me, would Hittler look good feeling shame for other murderers?

I don't get this "One-shot" technique and statement. Since when a one-shot only attack allows you to get up and use a much more powerful attack several times? 



> I have never been a fan of disregarding statements because of whatever horseshit the fandom of that character bring to justified their own biases and agenda towards their favourite character. It always ends up in an endless loop. Same with Gai, itachi, Tobirama and so on.



Unless feats kicks out the statement, like that statement (That was never stated) you mentioned above. Then, you should be agreeing with Sakura being on par with BM Naruto, Itachi being invincible or Jiraiya beating Itachi + Kisame + backup, Kiba going to be Hokage and Sasuke being incredibly cool and sexy, because it was stated too.

Following only statements leads to nowhere.
-


> I don't care what people think of those stuff honestly. As far I remember I have never taken those feats from Sai or Kankuro of being superior to Sasori and Deidara, especially Deidara who did not lose anything for being an ET


. 

-


> Gai's feats has been explained to his fans numerous times, just like how Sasuke with Kakashi, or Hinata with Pain.
> No one said it's nothing, but it also does not mean he is better than someone who was directly stated to be faster. Plain simple.



I'm not saying you do. I was pointing out the double standards on BD. ALso, Hinata and Pain example are far from being a comparison. Sasuke and Kakashi is a good one. And that one doesn't diminish Gai's feat.

With this below, i lost the track of our conversation. Because you don't want to quote me . However, i never saw you saying Gai was stronger than BM Naruto. Actually, when the 8th gate appeared, a lot of people began to hate on Gai. Even Nagato fans, or Kurama fans, when they were met with Gai killing them.

I'm a Nagato fan myself (and loved the Capitan Kurama trend by the time it happened).


> -
> I don't care what they see and what they don't really. People don't see Tobirama getting his ass wiped from Kin/Gin, does not change the fact that They wiped the floor with him twice, does it?
> 
> People did not see that Minato can teleport Naruto and B's combined TBB at the time, did not stop him from
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Unless feats kicks out the statement, like that statement (That was never stated) you mentioned above. Then, you should be agreeing with Sakura being on par with BM Naruto, Itachi being invincible or Jiraiya beating Itachi + Kisame + backup, Kiba going to be Hokage and Sasuke being incredibly cool and sexy, because it was stated too.



*You forgot Obito saying that Pain is invincible. According to Hussain's logic, Pain is truly invincible. And, since he is invincible, he can kill Kaguya, Sage of Six Paths, Rikudou Naruto, Rikudou Sasuke, 8 Gate Gai, Toneri Otsutsuki, Sage Mode Hashirama, EMS Madara, Third Raikage, Itachi, Kisame, Jiraya, Orochimaru and Gaara at the same time. What are they going to do to him? Pain is invincible! *

*Spoiler*: __ 








Am i the only one who thinks Hussain is a troll and never debates seriously?


----------



## Ryuzaki (Jul 31, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> *You forgot Obito saying that Pain is invincible. According to Hussain's logic, Pain is truly invincible. And, since he is invincible, he can kill Kaguya, Sage of Six Paths, Rikudou Naruto, Rikudou Sasuke, 8 Gate Gai, Toneri Otsutsuki, Sage Mode Hashirama, EMS Madara, Third Raikage, Itachi, Kisame, Jiraya, Orochimaru and Gaara at the same time. What are they going to do to him? Pain is invincible! *
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> ...



Yeah, you gotta learn to pick your battles on here, he's in the Icegaze category for me. 85% of the time, I ignore it, 15% I entertain it, if I'm bored.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> The distance between Gaara and Sasuke is similar to the one between Sasuke and Raikage, here. Gaara was able to block it with his sand. The databook lists the technique is limited to short-range at best and afterwards the technique has to be guided to it's intended target.
> 
> Amaterasu either


That was Enton, not Amaterasu. Enton is the manipulation of the flames, not the hyper fast creation of it.



> The image of Gai clearly shows multiple people and immediately after that panel, you see Gaara stating his speed is inhuman. Those are after-images of Gai's attack pattern.


No, those are just Guy's attack pattern being illustrated. They aren't transparent, nor is there a flicker. Stop using Gaara as evidence, he has no knowledge of the Gates. I showed you how an after image is presented in the manga and you ignored it.



> As far as it looks, there are two hits that Gai connects with in that scan, which shows that in the category of speed, Madara was bested but as I stated, Gai lacked the strength to do any damage.


I suppose Hinata hit Deva Path eight times then? Seriously, Madara was never hit, all Guy hit was air. Even the anime shows Guy hitting NOTHING in that exchange, Madara was always one step ahead if his Seventh Gated Form.


> There are a number of reasons as to why this substantiates Gai's feat, first and foremost is Madara opting to hit him mid-attack as in that spurt he could not find an opening to hit him at all. The second, why didn't Madara use Limbo? It's been his defensive go to technique when he feels overwhelmed and we all agree that Madara was taken off guard here and Gai capitalized on it.


You do realize Madara is DICKING AROUND THERE? He's not even considering GUy a threat since he's not. Madara was just playing around, hence why he didn't do anything offensively or defensive against Guy.


> Again, unlike with the 8th Gate, Gai doesn't have the strength to do damage here.


Nor the speed to land a blow. Guy never landed a blow, never created an after image, and Madara was comfortably ahead of him while dicking around. Why are you ignoring Madara's intent and state of mind there?



> The higher up he is the faster he is accelerating.


...no, he wouldn't be accelerating, he'd be falling at the same rate.



> He did that before Gai attacked him and immediately realized that he underestimated Gai's speed.


He never underestimated Guy's speed. Guy never caught him off guard and Madara avoided EVERY hit and bitchslapped Guy like he was a a fly. 



> In both scenarios, Madara was on the defensive and had to exploit an opening in Gai's CQC combat, otherwise, as shocked as Madara was, he would have retaliated sooner.


Why are you ignoring Madara wasn't anywhere serious before? Madara on the 'defensive', he never bothered to fight back until Guy's then best move was fodderized.


> Jiraiya would have got his salad tossed all over the Narutoverse if tried to take on all the Akatsuki at once, there wouldn't be enough left of him. Please, that was an obvious retcon and likewise this statement of Ei's has multiple exceptions.


Jiraiya can solo at least four Akatsuki members, maybe more. Itachi doesn't have the AUTHORITY to get Akatsuki members to back him up anyway, so stop assuming he would get them. Not only that, A's statement was never retconned, you only think that since you want Sixth or Seventh Gated Guy to be faster when he neither has the feats or statements to justify it. You keep using the battle with Madara, ignoring:


Madara was dicking around.
Madara wasn't bothering to fight back
Madara never got hit and was constantly one step ahead
Fodderized Guy's fastest punch.


----------



## Sadgoob (Jul 31, 2015)

I've always considered "combat speed" to be limited by *reflexes*.

Minato can "move" faster than Jubidara with Hiraishin, but his reflexes are so much slower that even in Sage Mode he was swiftly bisected after his teleportation from point A to point B.

I stopped paying as much attention to the manga by the time Red Gai came around, but it seemed to me that he even had the edge on Jubidara, so I'd say he definitely had the highest combat speed.

I would also expect 7-Gate Gai to have higher combat speed than virtually all other ninja beneath god tier, although within my own knowledge of the manga, this is difficult to support.​


----------



## RBL (Jul 31, 2015)

The gates are opened

[YOUTUBE]XBv0D3k1fsA[/YOUTUBE]


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> .
> 
> Being on the defensive is fine, but he was unable to react to anything Gai did until Gai paused for a moment. Gai created the opening for AT, which allowed Madara to hit him. That's not something you can overlook, Madara was being overhwhelmed by Gai, so much so that he didn't even have a chance to use Limbo.
> 
> ...





How many times does this needed to be explained? Gais taijutsu prowess and combat speed is what forced madara back. NOT MOVEMENT SPEED. There is a difference. Gai will best Ei in taijutsu and cqc and most likely force him back, but that is not an indication of superior movement speed. Gai would do the same against bsm/kcm naruto because his taijutsu is just that good. But that doesnt make him faster. 

Gai has superior combat speed/taijutsu speed and skill and taijutsu movement are all supeiror to Ei. But Movement speed is a completely different category. Gais taijutsu is so advanced and fast, that Madara could only jump back. Once he regained himself, he countered Gai. Gai performed faster feats in 8 gates, yet kadara reacted to the,. So all these dumbass arguments are pointless. Madara had his eyes shielded, he got surprised, big woop. You guys are still clining on to madara being forced back, but how does that show momvement speed? How is madara walking backwards a speedy feat? He wasnt moving fast at all..which is what you guys keep on failing to answer.

Gai will never in a million years beat Ei in a race. Ei is e fastest, plain and simple. Unless you have manga statements or databook statements or actual proof to dispute Eis comments then again gtfo.


----------



## RBL (Jul 31, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How many times does this needed to be explained? Gais taijutsu prowess and combat speed is what forced madara back. NOT MOVEMENT SPEED. There is a difference. Gai will best Ei in taijutsu and cqc and most likely force him back, but that is not an indication of superior movement speed. Gai would do the same against bsm/kcm naruto because his taijutsu is just that good. But that doesnt make him faster.
> 
> Gai has superior combat speed/taijutsu speed and skill and taijutsu movement are all supeiror to Ei. But Movement speed is a completely different category. Gais taijutsu is so advanced and fast, that Madara could only jump back. Once he regained himself, he countered Gai. Gai performed faster feats in 8 gates, yet kadara reacted to the,. So all these dumbass arguments are pointless. Madara had his eyes shielded, he got surprised, big woop. You guys are still clining on to madara being forced back, but how does that show momvement speed? How is madara walking backwards a speedy feat? He wasnt moving fast at all..which is what you guys keep on failing to answer.
> 
> Gai will never in a million years beat Ei in a race. *Ei is e fastest, plain and simple. Unless you have manga statements or databook statements or actual proof to dispute Eis comments then again gtfo.*



someone is butthurt 

Gai is not only faster, but he is also stronger and more intelligent than Ei.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 31, 2015)

Combat speed?

Been here for years, 5500 posts in this section, never heard of it.

Must be a new concept Ei fanboys made up to ignore Gai's actual movement speed.

Call it combat speed, call it movement speed, call it shunshin speed- doesn't matter. Ei's linear attacks won't hit him, which is how KCM Naruto was proven "faster" than Ei.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Combat speed?
> 
> Been here for years, never heard of it.
> 
> Must be a new concept Ei fanboys made up to ignore Gai's actual movement speed.



The speed at which gai can throw a punch or a kick. Hence why his fists create flames and air canons when he punches. Because he punches so fast.

I called it combat speed, i should have said striking speed, which is what i meant. I couldnt think of what to call it then.

So shut up. If you cant bring arguments, then dont talk.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Madara was dicking around.



No he wasnt. There is no reason to think so. Gai surprised him with his speed, which is pretty much visible in the scan below due to Juubidara's face expression. Juubidara wasnt dicking around there - he just couldnt reply to that properly.



Here, you can see that Gai was in a close distance, not allowing Juubidara to use his techniques because of barrage of punches. I dont think Gai has ever hit Juubidara, but that is not the point. It is irrelevant. What is relevant is that 7 Gate Gai's barrage of punches pressurred Juubidara, not allowing him to counter attack, or do anything else, because then, he risked to be hit by Gai, which he didnt want to happen due to his attempts to dodge Gai's hits and his usage of pause before a Hirudora's Air Tiger reached him.



That "blocks fastest punch, so he dicks around" arguement doesnt work. Because "the fastest punch" is a Hirudora sign. That punch - Hirudora sign - concentrates the air towards Gai's opponent and as soon as it concentrates, it defuses - Tiger-like air appears. That tiger-air is an after-effect of the fastest punch. Can you see that after making that sign, Gai doesnt move at all with his hands? He doesnt punch anything at all - he just stands. Juubidara couldnt prevent Gai from making Hirudora sign. And his face expression clearly shows that he doesnt dick around at all.

As for "Juubidara reacted to EE's first step twice, so he dicked around 7 Gate Gai" arguement. Well, how much faster EE's first step is compare to Hirudora punch? 8 Gate is a higher Gate so all of its attacks are faster? Realy? 7 Gate Gai's base punches has never created flames due to their sheer speed. Do you remember how 6 Gate Morning Peacock works? Should i remind that to you? 

As for "reacted to final step" arguement, well, Gai prepared that final punch, which gave Juubidara a time to put up his Gudoudama defence. Juubidara couldnt react to 2-4 steps, which were slower than step 5. 

And, finally, what's the point for him to dick around? Why shouldnt he be serious with Gai? He speedblitzed Minato, yet dicked around with Gai?



> Madara wasn't bothering to fight back



He couldnt.



> Madara never got hit and was constantly one step ahead



The fact he never got hit is irrelevant. And if he was one step ahead, he would have countered Gai there.



> Fodderized Guy's fastest punch.



As i explained above, he reacted to the after-effect of that fastest punch. 



*So many attempts to reduce the value of Gai's feat. Yet utterly futile. *


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 31, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> The speed at which gai can throw a punch or a kick. Hence why his fists create flames and air canons when he punches. Because he punches so fast.
> 
> I called it combat speed, i should have said striking speed, which is what i meant. I couldnt think of what to call it then.
> 
> So shut up. If you cant bring arguments, then dont talk.


I brought my arguments way back in the thread, you provided zero argument throughout this entire venture, claiming Ei is faster than 6th/7th Gated Gai because you simply think he is. Considering no one cares about your opinion, you'd better start trying to prove it. 

Ei shunshins to Gai, Gai punches him right in the face. 

Gai is faster. 

Is that easy enough for you?


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> The speed at which gai can throw a punch or a kick. Hence why his fists create flames and air canons when he punches. Because he punches so fast.
> 
> I called it combat speed, i should have said striking speed, which is what i meant. I couldnt think of what to call it then.
> 
> So shut up. If you cant bring arguments, then dont talk.



As if you have good arguements, lol.



> Gais taijutsu prowess and combat speed is what forced madara back. NOT MOVEMENT SPEED. There is a difference. Gai will best Ei in taijutsu and cqc and most likely force him back, but that is not an indication of superior movement speed



In order to punch fast you have to move your hand fast. In order to kick fast you have to move your leg fast. If your movements are very, very slow, then it doesnt matter if you are super-master in a close combat. You can be a master in close combat, but if your opponent has a lot faster movements and a lot faster reaction speed, then he most likely beats you. You can be a 50 years old master of sport in boxing, with huge experience in fighting and training boxers, yet some 25 years old boxer who trains for, lets say, 3 years and is only a candidate for master of sport can beat you. Because his speed is a lot higher than yours.

7 Gate Gai performed so well against Juubidara because his movement speed was so fast. *Juubidara was a sensor, yet 7 Gate Gai was so fast he surprised him with his rushing speed. And you know the rest.*

I dont think i should answer on the rest of your post, but this one...



> Gai will never in a million years beat Ei in a race. Ei is e fastest, plain and simple. Unless you have manga statements or databook statements or actual proof to dispute Eis comments then again gtfo.



Juubidara, a *SENSOR*, who could feel chakra from Hashirama being far away, was *SURPRISED* by Gai's rushing speed aka movement speed. 

Stop that already. What is truly pointless is to try to refute Gai's feat. He speedblitzes Ei with Hirudora and knockes him out cold, no doubt about it.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I brought my arguments way back in the thread, you provided zero argument throughout this entire venture, claiming Ei is faster than 6th/7th Gated Gai because you simply think he is. Considering no one cares about your opinion, you'd better start trying to prove it.
> 
> Ei shunshins to Gai, Gai punches him right in the face.
> 
> ...



Maybe 7 Gate Gai moves to Ei and punches him? Juubidara, a sensor, was surprised by how fast was 7 Gate Gai's movement speed from point A to point B - from team to Juubidara himself - and couldnt respond to that.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I brought my arguments way back in the thread, you provided zero argument throughout this entire venture, claiming Ei is faster than 6th/7th Gated Gai because you simply think he is. Considering no one cares about your opinion, you'd better start trying to prove it.
> 
> Ei shunshins to Gai, Gai punches him right in the face.
> 
> ...



Simply because I think he is  Oh my gosh look at this hypocrite. no! Manga tells me Ei is the fastest, meanwhile you and your wanking brothers think gai is faster based on.... Well thats just it, there is nothing that states gai is faster, its merely speculation and because "you think he is". At least manga supports me.

Yeah and he tanks the punch and liger bombs Gais ass.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Simply because I think he is Oh my gosh look at this hypocrite. no! Manga tells me Ei is the fastest, meanwhile you and your wanking brothers think gai is faster based on.... Well thats just it, there is nothing that states gai is faster, its merely speculation and because "you think he is". At least manga supports me.
> 
> Yeah and he tanks the punch and liger bombs Gais ass.



Manga tells Ei is not the fastest. That's what manga tells. Maybe Pain is invincible because Obito, in the manga, said so? No he isnt. The same is here. 7 Gate Gai's feats and Gaara's reaction to his movements - all of this makes Ei's statement completely futile. And, after all, it is a character's statement.

Based on surprising a Sensor Juubi Jin with his movement speed from point A to point B, being so fast Sensor Juubi Jin couldnt respond. 

Should i continue? 

Tanks Hirudora... Madara's Susanoo could withstand Tsunade's punch (although cracked, but withstood), Ei's shop, Mei's Lava Release, Naruto's Rasengan, yet Hirudora either destroyed it completely, or heavily damaged it to the point Madara lost a control over his mokuton, with which he could win.

And base 7 Gate Gai's punches made Kisame bleed.

Now imagine what a killing intent Hirudora can make to Ei. He gets knocked out. Cold.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 31, 2015)

> Simply because I think he is  Oh my gosh look at this hypocrite. no! Manga tells me Ei is the fastest, meanwhile you and your wanking brothers think gai is faster based on.... Well thats just it, there is nothing that states gai is faster, its merely speculation and because "you think he is". At least manga supports me.


Okay, then don't tell anyone else to provide an "argument or shut up"

Quotes don't make it canon as far as I'm concerned, at most it's supporting evidence for something more concrete- which you do not have. 

Considering PT. 1 Orochimaru, Kabuto and Zetsu's quotes, almost anything can be considered bullshit in this manga. 

If all you have is a man claiming that he's the fastest, and call that the "manga" telling you he's the fastest, you're delusional. 


> Yeah and he tanks the punch and liger bombs Gais ass.


Considering Base Bee's lariat sent him flying back, that punch does the same if not considerably more.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Jul 31, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Okay, then don't tell anyone else to provide an "argument or shut up"
> 
> Quotes don't mean anything as far as I'm concerned, Ei calling himself fast doesn't exactly make it canon.
> 
> ...



This aint no hyperbole quote. Its a fact that kishi stated in the only way he possibly could, a reputation thats spreads across the ninja world. You cant accept that, then tough. Not my fault you want to ignore facts. Might as well go and ignore every fact and statement ever stated in the manga. Kishi wroting he is the fastest makes it canon, keep trying,

Still waiting for real arguments here, Where is the movement speed of gai you people keep bragging about. Because a madara hopping backwards doesnt show me speed superior to v2 ei.

Oh lord, look. A punch from gai will tickle at most.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jul 31, 2015)

> This aint no hyperbole quote. Its a fact that kishi stated in the only way he possibly could, a reputation thats spreads across the ninja world. You cant accept that, then tough. Not my fault you want to ignore facts. Might as well go and ignore every fact and statement ever stated in the manga. Kishi wroting he is the fastest makes it canon, keep trying,


Kabuto stated no one could beat Kimimaro, Orochimaru said he was indestructible, Zetsu stated Itachi was invincible, Naruto stated Gaara's defense was the greatest, what is your point?



> Still waiting for real arguments here, Where is the movement speed of gai you people keep bragging about. Because a madara hopping backwards doesnt show me speed superior to v2 ei.


I provided my argument earlier in the thread, something I've stated multiple times. 



> Oh lord, look. A punch from gai will tickle at most.


This isn't an argument about durability, this is an argument about speed.

From what I've seen, Gai would punch that dude right in the face without a reaction.

Why do I think that? Well I've already stated that earlier in the thread.


----------



## StarWanderer (Jul 31, 2015)

> Kabuto stated no one could beat Kimimaro, Orochimaru said he was indestructible, Zetsu stated Itachi was invincible, Naruto stated Gaara's defense was the greatest, what is your point?



And Obito said Pain is invincible. Kaguya cant beat Pain, you see. He is invincible. *CANON, DaVizWiz, CANON!*


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Jul 31, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Logic contradicts this, if he was 1-inch away, then we there would have a been a panel showing him coming in. But there wasn't.


How does that have anything to do with logic ? He'd still be outside the panel if he was 1 inch away or 10 feet.
Again, you have absolutely no idea where exactly Gai was when Truth seeker was arms length away form Kakashi.
I am assuming he was fairly close. You can disagree all you want, you have no merit to your argument.



> The difference is the Obito here has senjutsu chakra and had both a rin'nengan and a sharingan.


Irrelevant, as his Kamui speed was the same as Kakashi's.



> According to the databook it is a short-range offensive technique, anything out of that range would require to to be guided to the target.


No. We've seen Itachi hit Cerebrus from at least 10 meters insantly, and Naruto couldn't react.

Also A was 3 or 5 meters away from Sasuke, he was within effective "databook range" of Amaterasu.



> From the looks of it, he did:
> 
> Amaterasu either


Read the page, Sasuke says "enton."



> I don't think it is  there are numerous shinobi that could out perform him in speed,


Out perform who ? 



> V2 Bee being another one. SM Naruto could likely sense the danger and replicate what he did against the 3rd Raikage. SM Kabuto dodged one of Sasuke's arrows.


None of those people are even remotely comparable to V2 A. They neither have the hype or feats.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

> None of those people are even remotely comparable to V2 A. They neither have the hype or feats.



SM Naruto has better reactions than KCM Naruto and, in close distance, counter-attacked a shinobi who was comparable with The Fourth Raikage in speed. KCM Naruto was getting hit and was unable to counter-attack V1 Ei in a close distance for a very long period of time. 



> and Naruto couldn't react.



The same Naruto who's shadow clones were active at that moment? Well, Itachi also could compete with that Naruto in a close combat. So what? That KCM Naruto was weakened due to clones.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> SM Naruto has better reactions than KCM Naruto


Completely baseless and manga contradictory.



> The same Naruto who's shadow clones were active at that moment?



Irrelevant.




> Well, Itachi also could compete with that Naruto in a close combat. So what?


Naruto's combat speed isn't that special. His burst shunshin is, which is equivalent of A's V2.



> [That KCM Naruto was weakened due to clones.



You could argue that he couldn't bust out chakra taxing techniques but his physical capabilities ? No.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 1, 2015)

I wonder who those 6 people who voted "yes" are. lol
That poll should have been public.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2015)

Some bandwagoners who think Gai became Juubidara level when he used 7 gates.


----------



## RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki (Aug 1, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Some bandwagoners who think Gai became Juubidara level when he used 7 gates.



Same people who think 7 Gates Gai is faster than 8 gates gai. Since Madara reacted to 8 gates attacks. While he was pushed back in 7G.


----------



## RBL (Aug 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I wonder who those 6 people who voted "yes" are. lol
> That poll should have been public.



i'm one of those 

i don't think gai needs more than 6 gates in order to defeat A.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 1, 2015)

Brandon Lee said:


> i'm one of those



talk about obvious.  

I have 5 members in mind


----------



## RBL (Aug 1, 2015)

Hussain said:


> talk about obvious.
> 
> I have 5 members in mind




*Spoiler*: __ 



and i can really speculate who the other 5 are : jad,starwander,raikiri19 (if he ever posted here)chaddyman and lostself or you can probably change raikiri19 for davidwiz


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

> Completely baseless and manga contradictory.





And look what happened next:



Do you remember how KCM Naruto couldnt counter-attack Raikage in a close distance and was hit many, many times?



> Irrelevant.



Relevant. I highly doubt he could use his super-Shunshin because of that. And his striking speed didnt seem to be as great as against Kisame, for example.



> Naruto's combat speed isn't that special. His burst shunshin is, which is equivalent of A's V2.



Killer Bee could see only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto hit Kisame. Isnt that special, you say?



> You could argue that he couldn't bust out chakra taxing techniques but his physical capabilities ? No.



Yeah, i can argue that he couldnt use Shunshin in order to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu attempt. And as if it proves anything, realy. 

Ei's top speed was outpaced by KCM Naruto, who couldnt even get out from Obito's line of attack. Ei's top speed was countered by Edo Madara.

7 Gate Gai canonically surprised Juubidara, a sensor Juubi Jin even faster than Juubito, with his movement speed from point A to point B. 7 Gate Gai canonically pressurred him with barrage of hits. 7 Gate Gai's fastest punch canonically couldnt be prevented by Juubidara. And Juubidara canonically barely reacted to the side effect of that fastest punch - defused air in a Tiger-like form. That's what happened. Against Juubidara, who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> V2 Ei and KCM Naruto in terms of speed. Not even close. 

You tried to nullify those feats, but you couldnt. Futile attempts, realy. That statement of Ei was false. And as if such statements are always canon. Well, Obito called Pain invincible. Do you think Kaguya cant kill him because Obito said so? He is invincible, after all. 

Ei isnt faster. He gets speedblitzed by 7 Gate Gai. Hirudora to Ei's jaw - knock out.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 1, 2015)

RaSenkoChoRinbukoSanshiki said:


> How many times does this needed to be explained? Gais taijutsu prowess and combat speed is what forced madara back. NOT MOVEMENT SPEED. There is a difference. Gai will best Ei in taijutsu and cqc and most likely force him back, but that is not an indication of superior movement speed. Gai would do the same against bsm/kcm naruto because his taijutsu is just that good. But that doesnt make him faster.
> 
> Gai has superior combat speed/taijutsu speed and skill and taijutsu movement are all supeiror to Ei. But Movement speed is a completely different category. Gais taijutsu is so advanced and fast, that Madara could only jump back. Once *he regained himself*, he countered Gai. Gai performed faster feats in 8 gates, yet kadara reacted to the,. So all these dumbass arguments are pointless. Madara had his eyes shielded, he got surprised, big woop. You guys are still clining on to madara being forced back, but how does that show momvement speed? How is madara walking backwards a speedy feat? He wasnt moving fast at all..which is what you guys keep on failing to answer.
> 
> Gai will never in a million years beat Ei in a race. Ei is e fastest, plain and simple. Unless you have manga statements or databook statements or actual proof to dispute Eis comments then again gtfo.



He straight up blitz Madara. Madara underestimated his speed, as you can see with this page. He never regained himself, he opted to a simultaneous attack because he couldn't find an opening. Gai's initial speed burst caught him, therefore making him faster. 

8th Gate gave Gai more speed, but he already had him beat in that category. What Gai lacked was actual physical strength to cause enough damage, an increase in both strength and speed again with the 8th Gate, gave him the necessary buffs required to inflict some damage.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> That was Enton, not Amaterasu. Enton is the manipulation of the flames, not the hyper fast creation of it.



[2]

The flames had to get there first in order to be manipulated, even though he guards himself with an Enton, he needed to use Amaterasu first. And they are fist 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> No, those are just Guy's attack pattern being illustrated. They aren't transparent, nor is there a flicker. Stop using Gaara as evidence, *he has no knowledge of the Gates*. I showed you how an after image is presented in the manga and you ignored it.


That's your opinion, I'm willing to agree to disagree but no way in hell am I going to state that Gaara doesn't know anything about the Gates when he fought against it once already.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I suppose Hinata hit Deva Path eight times then? Seriously, Madara was never hit, all Guy hit was air. Even the anime shows Guy hitting NOTHING in that exchange, Madara was always one step ahead if his Seventh Gated Form.
> 
> You do realize Madara is DICKING AROUND THERE? He's not even considering GUy a threat since he's not. Madara was just playing around, hence why he didn't do anything offensively or defensive against Guy.
> 
> Nor the speed to land a blow. Guy never landed a blow, never created an after image, and Madara was comfortably ahead of him while dicking around. Why are you ignoring Madara's intent and state of mind there?


Madara wasn't dicking around when he was surprised by Gai's speed. He had to find an opening while tanking an attack from Gai. I believe I've said on numerous occasions that Gai didn't have the power/strength to harm Madara, but he had the speed to engage him. Just because Gai is faster doesn't mean he's going to win automatically, especially against Madara who has absorbed the Juubi and has the Six Paths Senjutsu. 

But he can surely be faster than him, there's nothing to indicate that he wasn't.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...no, he wouldn't be accelerating, he'd be falling at the same rate.


That would be true if he didn't have his shroud active, the shroud is supposed to enhance his speed.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> He never underestimated Guy's speed. Guy never caught him off guard and Madara avoided EVERY hit and bitchslapped Guy like he was a a fly.


I'm going to dumb this down as much as I can.

[2]

Madara: You're underestimating me if you're not using the "Red Steam"
Madara: !

[2]

Gai blitz Madara, because he was still standing a normal position, with no defense at all, which is why you see the first hit on the middle panel. Followed by the second hit right before the end with a Afternoon Tiger.

Madara was *unable to react* to Gai's initial blitz and unable to react to Gai's CQC moves. The moment Gai paused to make the seal for AT, Madara retaliated with a simultaneous hit.

However, Madara had no problem dismantling SM Minato's Hiraishin Rasengan blitz. At the very least this indicates that 7th Gated Gai shits all over the Raikage, in terms of speed and that entire initial scuffle speaks to Gai's speed, but as I've come to realize, I do not believe Gai, even in 7th Gate had enough strength/power in him to damage/hurt Madara. Madara was still the stronger fighter (physically).

This is further supported from his lack of usage of Limbo in order to augment his defense, since Gai was just too incredibly fast for him. Lack of usage of Susano'o to shield himself. Madara's only move was the truthseeker which has been shown to be 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Why are you ignoring Madara wasn't anywhere serious before? Madara on the 'defensive', he never bothered to fight back until Guy's then best move was fodderized.





SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Jiraiya can solo at least four Akatsuki members, maybe more. Itachi doesn't have the AUTHORITY to get Akatsuki members to back him up anyway, so stop assuming he would get them.


Perhaps if you went up the ladder from bottom to top (Hidan, Konan, Zetsu, Sasori), but if you took the statement in context and included Itachi, Kisame + 2 others from any group, Jiraiya gets his salad tossed all over Narutoverse. 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Not only that, A's statement was never retconned, you only think that since you want Sixth or Seventh Gated Guy to be faster when he neither has the feats or statements to justify it. You keep using the battle with Madara, ignoring:
> 
> 
> Madara was dicking around.
> ...


Madara wasn't dicking around when he was clearly surprised by his speed.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> How does that have anything to do with logic ? He'd still be outside the panel if he was 1 inch away or 10 feet.
> Again, you have absolutely no idea where exactly Gai was when Truth seeker was arms length away form Kakashi. I am assuming he was fairly close. You can disagree all you want, you have no merit to your argument.


The difference is there was no indication that Gai was that close but we have solid proof the truthseeker was much closer than Sasuke vs. Raikage skirmish involving Amaterasu.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Irrelevant, as his Kamui speed was the same as Kakashi's.


Kakashi mentioned that merely by having senjutsu chakra pumping through the eyes, the eyes had grew much stronger.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. We've seen Itachi hit Cerebrus from at least 10 meters insantly, and Naruto couldn't react.
> 
> Also A was 3 or 5 meters away from Sasuke, he was within effective "databook range" of Amaterasu.


Yeah, but 10 meters isn't mid/long range either. Gaara was able to effectively Amaterasu at his distance, which was roughly the same as the Raikage vs. Sasuke. 



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Read the page, Sasuke says "enton."


Yeah, but there were too many flames around on the sand, they had to get there from Sasuke. He may have defended himself with an Enton, but Amaterasu had to bring the flames out in order for it to be manipulated.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Out perform who ?


Raikage


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 1, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> And look what happened next:
> 
> 
> 
> Do you remember how KCM Naruto couldnt counter-attack Raikage in a close distance and was hit many, many times?



KCM Naruto outmanuvered Raikage and landed the FRS on him, without the need to use his top speed,  what the hell are you talking about ? 



> Relevant. I highly doubt he could use his super-Shunshin because of that. And his striking speed didnt seem to be as great as against Kisame, for example.


His striking speed against Kisame was a result of his shunshin. Shunshin is basically accelerating your movement by pumping chakra to your legs or some shit. 
Naruto's regular movements aren't exact replcation of his shunshin, as you can witness whenever he isn't using his max speed.

So again, irrelevant.


> Killer Bee could see only a yellow flash when KCM Naruto hit Kisame. Isnt that special, you say?


That was his shunshin, hence the "yellow flash." 



> Yeah, i can argue that he couldnt use Shunshin in order to dodge Itachi's Amaterasu attempt. And as if it proves anything, realy.


Argue ? For you to be able to argue something you need evidence.
In this case, you have none.



> Ei's top speed was outpaced by KCM Naruto, who couldnt even get out from Obito's line of attack. Ei's top speed was countered by Edo Madara.
> 
> 7 Gate Gai canonically surprised Juubidara, a sensor Juubi Jin even faster than Juubito, with his movement speed from point A to point B. 7 Gate Gai canonically pressurred him with barrage of hits. 7 Gate Gai's fastest punch canonically couldnt be prevented by Juubidara. And Juubidara canonically barely reacted to the side effect of that fastest punch - defused air in a Tiger-like form. That's what happened. Against Juubidara, who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> V2 Ei and KCM Naruto in terms of speed. Not even close.
> 
> ...



Didn't even read. You lost me when you compared Obito's striking speed to A's V2 shunshin, which means you either have no idea what you are talking about or flat out trolling.



Ryuzaki said:


> The difference is there was no indication that Gai was that close but we have solid proof the truthseeker was much closer than Sasuke vs. Raikage skirmish involving Amaterasu.


There is no evidence where Gai was, period.
So again, how do you know he was further away from the truth seeker ? 



> Kakashi mentioned that merely by having senjutsu chakra pumping through the eyes, the eyes had grew much stronger.


And yet using Kamui both at the same time they doubled the speed. If Obito's Kamui speed was higher, than Kakashi's addition wouldn't double it.
Logic, you gotta try it.




> Yeah, but 10 meters isn't mid/long range either. Gaara was able to effectively Amaterasu at his distance, which was roughly the same as the Raikage vs. Sasuke.


Ok then you accept that A was within Amaterasu's effective range.

Gaara never defend against Amaterasu .



> Yeah, but there were too many flames around on the sand, they had to get there from Sasuke. He may have defended himself with an Enton, but Amaterasu had to bring the flames out in order for it to be manipulated.


That means he never used amaterasu on Gaara offensively. Enton's speed isn't anything special.



> Raikage



No. none of those characters are even in the same ballpark, let alone come close to him or outperform him.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 1, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Rasengan blitz
> 
> The flames had to get there first in order to be manipulated, even though he guards himself with an Enton, he needed to use Amaterasu first. And they are fist


Sasuke has the flames in his Susano'o, all he did was manipulate them with Enton. Thats what Gaara reacted to.



> That's your opinion, I'm willing to agree to disagree but no way in hell am I going to state that Gaara doesn't know anything about the Gates when he fought against it once already.


Except he doesn't. He didn't even know what Rock Lee used against him and never learned about the Gates until the War. 



> Madara wasn't dicking around when he was surprised by Gai's speed. He had to find an opening while tanking an attack from Gai. I believe I've said on numerous occasions that Gai didn't have the power/strength to harm Madara, but he had the speed to engage him. Just because Gai is faster doesn't mean he's going to win automatically, especially against Madara who has absorbed the Juubi and has the Six Paths Senjutsu.
> 
> But he can surely be faster than him, there's nothing to indicate that he wasn't.


Madara was dicking around. He wasn't serious the entire engagement with Guy's Seventh Gated form. He just danced around every attack and was *always one step ahead.* Guy never landed a blow. Know why I keep using the Hinata comparison, since its the exact same thing. But you apply double standards to claim it wasn't since you want Guy to be stronger and faster than he actually IS. 

Guy is not faster than a Juubi Jin without the Eighth Gate. That's absurdity to think that he is faster than Madara without it! He couldn't even blitz Edo Madara, so why do you believe he's faster than the Juubi Jin incarnation?


> That would be true if he didn't have his shroud active, the shroud is supposed to enhance his speed.


Can't enhance things when you're in mid-air. A will always fall at the same rate regardless of the shroud being active if he's in mid-air. 



> I'm going to dumb this down as much as I can.
> 
> Rasengan blitz
> 
> ...


This is just a bunch of wank and you know it. Madara wasn't serious. He wasn't fighting back. He danced around all of Guy's attacks. Guy never blitzed him UNTIL the Eighth Gate was used. Madara comfortably dealt with him while literally finding with both hands behind his back. 

Madara regarded Minato more of a threat than Guy due to Minato using Senjutsu, the Juubi Jin form's weakness, against him, hence why he bothered to retaliate there while against Guy? He just danced around everything! There was no blitz! Madara wasn't even remotely impressed by Guy's speed! 

Seriously, how much mental gymnastics do you have to do Ryuzaki to make this out to be more impressive than it really was?





> Perhaps if you went up the ladder from bottom to top (Hidan, Konan, Zetsu, Sasori), but if you took the statement in context and included Itachi, Kisame + 2 others from any group, Jiraiya gets his salad tossed all over Narutoverse.


Kisame already said Jiraiya was on an entire other tier, he's not much stronger than other members of Akatsuki. Itachi is also Jiraiya's equal, and for all we know Itachi would just hire a group of mercs to fight to be reinforcements, but he knows that wouldn't change.

What point of: Itachi nor Kisame have the authority to bring in Akatsuki members as backup? Also why do you ignore Jiraiya's performance against Pain?



> Madara wasn't dicking around when he was clearly surprised by his speed.


Yes, he was. Its clear as day. Madara wasn't REMOTELY serious. Guy wasn't a threat to him, at ALL. Guy landed no hits (so much for blitzing) and Madara danced around him by literally being one step ahead. Hell even Guy's *fastest punch* was blocked and deflected with ease by Madara.

You need to stop wanking GUy over something that isn't remotely impressive. Its Hinata vs Deva Path. That's literally what it is.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 1, 2015)

> KCM Naruto outmanuvered Raikage and landed the FRS on him, without the need to use his top speed, what the hell are you talking about ?



I forgot about that.



> His striking speed against Kisame was a result of his shunshin. Shunshin is basically accelerating your movement by pumping chakra to your legs or some shit.
> Naruto's regular movements aren't exact replcation of his shunshin, as you can witness whenever he isn't using his max speed.
> 
> So again, irrelevant.
> ...



His strike being visible as a yellow flash was most likely because of super-fast Shunshin. I agree.



> Argue ? For you to be able to argue something you need evidence.
> In this case, you have none.



KCM Naruto was capable of tracking Ei's speed, even dodging his V2 punch, yet cant react to Amaterasu, which V2 Ei easily dodged?



> Didn't even read. You lost me when you compared Obito's striking speed to A's V2 shunshin, which means you either have no idea what you are talking about or flat out trolling.



KCM Naruto would have ended up being in Kamui dimension if not for Kakashi and Gai, thanks to Obito's striking speed. 

And do you know what trolling is? The trolling is to say that Ei is faster than 7 Gate Gai. He surprised a sensor Juubi Jin with his movement speed from point A to point B, yet someone, who's V2 punch was blocked by Edo Madara point blank and dodged by KCM Naruto, is faster than him? That's what i call trolling. That is nonsense. Juubidara is so many times faster than V2 Ei that it is not funny, yet he was surprised and pressured in CQC by 7 Gate Gai. 

That Ei's statement proves nothing. 7 Gate Gai possesses feats far >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> those of Ei. Not even close, realy.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> KCM Naruto was capable of tracking Ei's speed, even dodging his V2 punch, yet cant react to Amaterasu, which V2 Ei easily dodged?


Wait what ? Do you think A is faster than Amaterasu ? 



> KCM Naruto would have ended up being in Kamui dimension if not for Kakashi and Gai, thanks to Obito's striking speed.


No. Naruto was lying on his ass, he made no attempt to dodge Obito on foot like he did to A.
Completely different circumstances, I doubt Obito is even comparable to V1 A.




> And do you know what trolling is? The trolling is to say that Ei is faster than 7 Gate Gai.



[1]

I guess Kishimoto is a troll then.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> Wait what ? Do you think A is faster than Amaterasu ?



He easily dodged it in a close distance thanks to his V2. 7 Gate Gai, who is a lot faster than Ei, can replicate that feat.



> No. Naruto was lying on his ass, he made no attempt to dodge Obito on foot like he did to A.
> Completely different circumstances, I doubt Obito is even comparable to V1 A.



He couldnt dodge Obito and had to rely on Kakashi's and Gai's help there. 

And lol, "even comparable to V1 Ei". Suigetsu reacted to V1 Ei no problem. Sasuke reacted to V1 Ei no problem. Yet Obito is not even comparable?



> [1]
> 
> I guess Kishimoto is a troll then.



I guess Kaguya cant kill Pain because of this:



I guess Hashirama cant beat Hiruzen because of this:



And there are more of these.

Do you understand that it is stupid to base your opinion *only* on statements made up for characters? Especially when the value of those statements is nullified by manga later. 

7 Gate Gai clearly surprised a *sensor Juubi Jin*, stronger than Juubito, with his *movement speed* from point A to point B. He pressurred Juubidara with his taijutsu moves, not giving him an opportunity to counter-attack, fly away, or use Gudoudama. And Juubidara couldnt prevent Gai from making Hirudora's sign, which is *the fastest 7 Gate punch so many people were speculating about*. 

Juubidara wasnt playing around and i already explained why earlier. Yet 7 Gate Gai did all of those. V2 Ei's Shunshin was outpaced by KCM Naruto, his V2 punch was blocked by Edo Madara. How in the world can he be faster than 7 Gate Gai? The answer is - he cant be faster. That's it.

Oh by the way, Kaguya, So6P, Rikudou Naruto, Rikudou Sasuke, Toneri Otsutsuki - all of them, even combined, cant beat Itachi. Do you know why? Because of this:



According to you, we should base our opinion on these statements.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He easily dodged it in a close distance thanks to his V2. 7 Gate Gai, who is a lot faster than Ei, can replicate that feat.


What does this have anything to do with A being faster than Amatereasu ? How is Gai any part of this ? 


> He couldnt dodge Obito and had to rely on Kakashi's and Gai's help there.


Naruto was lying on the ground.
tell me how exactly that situation is comparable to Naruto dodging A ?



> And lol, "even comparable to V1 Ei". Suigetsu reacted to V1 Ei no problem. Sasuke reacted to V1 Ei no problem. Yet Obito is not even comparable?


Reacting = / = being as fast as.

So you think Suigetsu is as fast as A ? 



> I guess Kaguya cant kill Pain because of this:



Was Kaguya introduced back then ?


----------



## Arles Celes (Aug 2, 2015)

I'd say one page of not managing to land a single hit on Madara and on the next page being owned with a single attack while having your strongest 7th Gate move owned hard is hardly giving JJ Madara a hard time.

Otherwise I'd say part 1 Sasuke is close to part 1 Kakashi's level given that he forced him to stop reading IchaIcha and did make him go "!" a few times too? 

Or Hiruzen being as strong as Juubito as he lasted a few pages before he was owned too...

Had JJ Madara used Limbo or PS then even 8th Gate Guy would hardly last much. Madara was smiling all the time BUT when faced Rikudou powered Naruto and Sasuke he had shown to be worried rather than entertained.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> What does this have anything to do with A being faster than Amatereasu ? How is Gai any part of this ?



Read the thread's name.



> Naruto was lying on the ground.
> tell me how exactly that situation is comparable to Naruto dodging A ?



But he could get up and use Shunshin, no problem. But wait - he couldnt. And by the way, there were lots of situations where KCM Naruto had to rely on Kakashi's and Gai's help. That situation was one of many.



> Reacting = / = being as fast as.
> 
> So you think Suigetsu is as fast as A ?



I think that Obito's striking speed is faster than Ei's V1 striking speed. And Ei's V2 striking speed, if we judge by his performance against KCM Naruto.



> Was Kaguya introduced back then ?



No, she wasnt. That doesnt matter anyway. Pain wasnt invincible, Hiruzen wasnt the strongest among Hokage, Itachi wasnt invincible, Kimimaro wasnt unbeatable, Kabuto's Edo Tensei wasnt invincible, Uchiha were not nothing compare to SM Kabuto and there were things he cant do. I can give you more examples, if you want.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> Otherwise I'd say part 1 Sasuke is close to part 1 Kakashi's level given that he forced him to stop reading IchaIcha and did make him go "!" a few times too?



Yeah, and it was an exam, were Kakashi wasnt even trying to fight his future students. 

Hiruzen's situation is completely different.



> Had JJ Madara used Limbo or PS then even 8th Gate Guy would hardly last much. Madara was smiling all the time BUT when faced Rikudou powered Naruto and Sasuke he had shown to be worried rather than entertained.



7 Gate Gai didnt give him an opportunity to use Limbo because of constant pressure with taijutsu moves. And can you prove he could use PS at that moment? Against 8 Gate Gai, he used his Gudoudama to protect himself. And why should he use Limbo against 8 Gate Gai when he is faster and can outrun Limbo clone protecting Juubidara?

As for 7 Gate Gai, he clearly surprised Juubidara with his movement speed, pressurred him with taijutsu in close combat and made his fastest punch (Hirudora sign), which Juubidara couldnt prevent. 

Juubidara wasnt playing around.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> As for 7 Gate Gai, he clearly surprised Juubidara with his movement speed, pressurred him with taijutsu in close combat


Because he was underestimating Gai and didn't expect him to be that strong. 
Just like how Kakashi was pushed back by genin Sasuke during the bell test.



> and made his fastest punch (Hirudora sign), which Juubidara couldnt prevent.



Why would he need to prevent it when he could just disrupt the attack and one shot Gai anytime he wanted.
Oh wait, thats  exactly what he did.



> [
> Juubidara wasnt playing around.



Truth to be told, eventhough Gai exceeded Madara's physical capabilities with the 8th Gate, Madara never seemed to  be worried, even when Gai's kick "almost" killed him.
He never attempted to use any jutsu, limbo or other things like Arles pointed out. He knew Gai wouldn't be able to kill him, so he felt secure through out. 
And thats 8th Gate.

Arguing that Madara was somewhat worried about 7th gate isn't even funny enough to be a joke.
Dude oneshot Gai in a couple of seconds.


----------



## ChaddyMan1 (Aug 2, 2015)

^
Actually Gai one shot himself.

The reason that they both went flying in the opposite directions was because Madara divided the Hirodura with his staff, causing it to detonate early, which caused an explosion. Madara's staff never actually touched Gai.

Gai's injuries were self inflicted, though not intentionally.


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## Arles Celes (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> 7 Gate Gai didnt give him an opportunity to use Limbo because of constant pressure with taijutsu moves. And can you prove he could use PS at that moment? Against 8 Gate Gai, he used his Gudoudama to protect himself. And why should he use Limbo against 8 Gate Gai when he is faster and can outrun Limbo clone protecting Juubidara?
> 
> As for 7 Gate Gai, he clearly surprised Juubidara with his movement speed, pressurred him with taijutsu in close combat and made his fastest punch (Hirudora sign), which Juubidara couldnt prevent.
> 
> Juubidara wasnt playing around.



Guy even in 8th Gate was actually receiving damage too as he was bleeding and his clothes were destroyed. They were both messed up. Madara was however amused and tainting his opponent to "keep dancing" while Guy was giving his all and was terrified how his attacks can't put Madara down.

Madara was genuinely concerned when he saw what Godruto and Godsuke can do. He was no longer blabbering about dancing but hurried for his other eye quite fast.

And Guy needed Minato, Lee, Kakashi and Gaara assisting him through the whole fight. 

Against 7th Gate Guy it was a child's play for Madara. Not a single scratch and Guy defeated with just one attack resulting in broken ribs. Madara reacted to Guy's fastest attack and countered it easily enough.

Being unable to land any attack on his opponent hardly hyped 7th Gate Guy's speed.

Just because he owned Guy in 6 panels rather than 3 like with Minato it hardly proves that 7th Gate Guy is above Minato.

Guy accomplished just as little.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> Because he was underestimating Gai and didn't expect him to be that strong.
> Just like how Kakashi was pushed back by genin Sasuke during the bell test.



Underestimation didnt make Juubidara slower, didnt turn off his Sage Mode sensing, didnt effect his reaction speed, at all. He clearly didnt want to be hit by Gai, so it would have been suitable for him to take Gai out as soon as possible, just like he took Minato out. But he couldnt. Gai moved from the place were he activated 7th Gate to Juubidara himself so fast he surprised Juubidara with his speed and Juubidara couldnt counter-attack him there. He was pressurred by Gai's taijutsu speed and couldnt prevent Gai from making his so called "fastest punch".

How long will debaters bring this useless example here? It was not a war, it was not a fight to the death. In fact, Kakashi wasnt trying to fight, at all. It was an exam and Kakashi was clearly holding himself back. Juubidara-Gai situation is completely different, obviously.



> Why would he need to prevent it when he could just disrupt the attack and one shot Gai anytime he wanted.
> Oh wait, thats exactly what he did.



Why risking being hit by a huge Tiger-like air thing when you can cut Gai's arms? Gai made Hirudora punch, the fastest punch and Juubidara was worried after that. He clearly couldnt prevent Gai from making that punch.



And he barely reacted to Tiger-like air, which hit him and took him away for some distance before he swang his staff, since even when Gai stood there and did nothing, he coudlnt cut down Gai himself. Due to defused air sending him away. And a visible change in the distance between them. 



> Truth to be told, eventhough Gai exceeded Madara's physical capabilities with the 8th Gate, Madara never seemed to be worried, even when Gai's kick "almost" killed him.
> He never attempted to use any jutsu, limbo or other things like Arles pointed out. He knew Gai wouldn't be able to kill him, so he felt secure through out.
> And thats 8th Gate.
> 
> ...



He was excited because he was about to fight with a worthy opponent in a death match, which he likes to do. But, judging from his face expressions, he was worried. With 7th and with 8th Gate. Take a look at boxers and MMA fighters. They can be excited and worried at the same time. You are excited about fighting someone, yet you dont wanna lose, so you have to dodge/block any hit from your opponent to not get knocked out.

He used Gudoudama. And Limbo would have been almost useless, just like the Gudoudama was. Gai would have outrun it in the same way he did with Gudoudama if Juubidara used it for protection. And for the offencive, it cant compete with 8 Gate Gai's speed. 

He was, judging from his face expressions and unwillingness to be hit by 7th Gate Gai. Gai was a taijutsu master and Juubidara knew taijutsu is one of the tricks with which he could be beaten.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

I can't believe people are saying Madara wasn't worried of never dying. It's not like he turtled himself when he looked at Gai coming.

And oh my god Madara knew was never going to die when he himself said he was almost killed. Oh boy, now the statement was wrong .

Seriously.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

> Guy even in 8th Gate was actually receiving damage too as he was bleeding and his clothes were destroyed. They were both messed up. Madara was however amused and tainting his opponent to "keep dancing" while Guy was giving his all and was terrified how his attacks can't put Madara down.



That's called an excitement about the fight. You can be excited about fighting someone, but still worried about getting hit by your opponent. Because then, you can lose. Juubidara wasnt playing around with 8 Gate Gai and wasnt doing that with 7 Gate Gai too. There was literally no reason for him to do that.



> Madara was genuinely concerned when he saw what Godruto and Godsuke can do. He was no longer blabbering about dancing but hurried for his other eye quite fast.
> 
> And Guy needed Minato, Lee, Kakashi and Gaara assisting him through the whole fight.



Juubidara was clearly worried about Gai as soon as he realised what was he capable off. It is obvious due to his face expressions and thoughts.

As for the team, they helped Gai only with 5th EE's step.



> Against 7th Gate Guy it was a child's play for Madara. Not a single scratch and Guy defeated with just one attack resulting in broken ribs. Madara reacted to Guy's fastest attack and countered it easily enough.



That "defeat" was due to self-inflicted damage, although 7th Gate Gai is truly below Juubidara.

However, although Gai didnt do a single scratch, Juubidara havent done that too and used Gai's own Hirudora to quickly defeat him.

Juubidara couldnt physicaly react to Gai's "fastest punch" which is a Hirudora sign itself that makes an after-effect - defused air in a form of Tiger. Gai made that "fastest punch" and Juubidara couldnt prevent him from doing that. Only after that, Juubidara realised Gai uses his special attack and swang his staff. And by the way, he did that after Tiger-like air hit him, because he was flying away already. Gai stood there after making Hirudora's punch, doing nothing, yet Juubidara couldnt cut down Gai himself with his staff. 



> Being unable to land any attack on his opponent hardly hyped 7th Gate Guy's speed.



Juubidara was pressurred by his barrage of hits, couldnt counter-attack him and blitz him like he blitzed SM Edo Minato, was surprised by Gai's movement speed, although there was a distance, Juubidara was a sensor and a super-speedster himself. And, finally, Juubidara couldnt prevent Gai from making his fastest punch.



> Just because he owned Guy in 6 panels rather than 3 like with Minato it hardly proves that 7th Gate Guy is above Minato.



In fact, what 7th Gate Gai has done proves he is a lot physically faster than Minato. 



> Guy accomplished just as little.



Surprising alive Madara Uchiha, with Hashirama's Sage Mode + Juubi's chakra with the sheer movement speed is "just a little"?

Pressurring that Madara Uchiha with a barrage of hits in CQC without being countered, or speedblitzed, is "just a little"?

Making the fastest punch in his arsenal so fast Juubidara couldnt prevent him from doing that is "just a little"?

*Realy?*


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I can't believe people are saying Madara wasn't worried of never dying. It's not like he turtled himself when he looked at Gai coming.
> 
> And oh my god Madara knew was never going to die when he himself said he was almost killed. Oh boy, now the statement was wrong .
> 
> Seriously.



So many face expressions with exclamation mark in comic bubbles and simply in manga, without bubbles, yet he was not worried...


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## Arles Celes (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Surprising alive Madara Uchiha, with Hashirama's Sage Mode + Juubi's chakra with the sheer movement speed is "just a little"?
> 
> Pressurring that Madara Uchiha with a barrage of hits in CQC without being countered, or speedblitzed, is "just a little"?
> 
> ...



A surprise that was extremely short lived and amounted to no damage at all.

And since Madara countered Guy's fastest attack it hardly means that he couldn't land a hit before if he really tried. He said it himself-that Guy was not treating him seriously by using just the 7th Gate and so he hardly treated him seriously either.

If surprising someone and not being owned in one panel is a great accomplishment then I guess Kiba accomplished much against Obito by making him go "!"
Konoha training grounds
Obito couldn't prevent Kiba from performing Getsuga either. Guess Obito was in trouble.

Or Sasuke was owning KB by making him go "?!" too and not being owned in just 3 panels.
Konoha training grounds

LOL what 7th Gate Guy accomplished was not being able to land a single hit and having his strongest move defeated without it inflicting any damage to Madara.

Sasuke at least pierced SM Madara with his sword-not needing Susanoo even- and Gaara hurt and slowed him down with sand. 

And Minato reacted to Madara's gudoudamas and saved Guy from being hit by those.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

^ Exactly. Thanks Arles Celes! Heh, those and the Hinata example illustrate Seventh Gated Guy vs Juubi Jin Madara perfectly.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> So many face expressions with exclamation mark in comic bubbles and simply in manga, without bubbles, yet he was not worried...



Madara's "I'm chilling" face: 

​​
.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

...LostSelf, why have you jumped straight into Guy's wank?


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

How do you know i'm wanking?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

^ Since you're acting like you are? Since your saying 'Well A didn't know about Guy so of course Guy's faster', etc.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

I said Gai's faster than Ei?

And since when saying Gai's faster than Ei is wank? The possibilities are there. If you don't agree with them, doesn't make the opposite opinion as wank, though.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> I said Gai's faster than Ei?
> 
> And since when saying Gai's faster than Ei is wank? The possibilities are there. If you don't agree with them, doesn't make the opposite opinion as wank, though.


Since there's no evidence, and you can't get more concrete than how Kishimoto laid things out in terms of speed.


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## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

So, Itachi's invincible, then.

Sakura is BM Naruto's level, too.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> So, Itachi's invincible, then.
> 
> Sakura is BM Naruto's level, too.


False dichonomy's there. Itachi isn't invincible since nothing is invincible in the Narutoverse, and Sakura had achieved power comparable to KCM Naruto, not BM.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

But it's a statement. And Sakura said that when Naruto already showed BM.


----------



## Jad (Aug 2, 2015)

I think there are too many insults flying around from both parties, Gai defenders and those debating against Gai's feats, that your just making it worse for your points to get across. At that point, it doesn't matter what you say to the other person, you've riled them up, and whether they make good or bad points, they are going to say you are wrong all the time.

I can admit, that the statement A made, him being the fastest shinobi alive, is quite a 'matzo ball hanging out there'. Somewhere in the manga, there is some acknowledgement that some person is the fastest shinobi. It's there, you can pick up the scan and link it, you have proof. No where in the manga does it say Gai is the fastest Shinobi alive, only instances where people made comments about his speed and in the Databook. Never the 'fastest' and yet for A, there is a comment. Pretty big stuff.

However, at the time I believe Gai was slower than A, and I do admit, I wavered time to time. I believe that Gaara's statement broke that perception that A had, as a character in the story, of being the fastest shinobi alive. Believing A's movements are still considered within the realm of humans, while Gai's movements aren't based on Gaara's knowledge, than Gai in the 7th Gate is faster. I also believe the panels that Kishimoto dedicated to the assault Gai did on Madara (incl. expressions) and the way they were illustrated show this.

As for why I believe Gai pushed back Juudara, I have made my thoughts available in the link below. You can't keep showing images of Deva/Hinata or Kakashi/Sasuke, you are being unreasonable, focus on two different characters and their situation. Variables and numbers from one equation can't possibly equal another, so why make the distinction. I don't understand why Juudara would move back, when he has shown his ability to take out Minato the Yellow Flash in one move, yet Kishimoto does not show the same for Gai. Juudara even thought Gai was underestimating him, so with understanding Juudara/Madara's way of thinking, why would he back up for a guy he thought was again, underestimating him. That to me, does not make sense with context in mind. As for, Juudara backing away equaling Raiton-Shunshin-No-Jutsu; that's why it makes sense that Gai was pushing him, like a Train would push an object at the same speed.

Here is my lengthier post: []


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 2, 2015)

Jad said:


> why would he back up for a guy he thought was again, underestimating him. That to me, does not make sense with context in mind.



Because Madara was chilling. Just look at it here. It's painfully obvious:




*Spoiler*: __ 



My apologies to those who feel offended for this. Those bad jokes are not meant to disrespect, despite how much i disagree with the definition of chilling people are having in this very thread.


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## Jad (Aug 2, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Because Madara was chilling. Just look at it here. It's painfully obvious:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I believe panel was drawn by Kishimoto to show us how fast Gai was through expression alone. He didn't even have to draw that small detail with Gai's 7th Gate aura in the bottom right hand corner that most people can even miss. In fact, there were two panels of Gai arriving in front of Madara. The panel you posted LostSelf, and the panel after it. I think it was to emphasize how 'in-your face' Gai was compared to Minato's assault on Madara.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sasuke has the flames in his Susano'o, all he did was manipulate them with Enton. Thats what Gaara reacted to.


No, because Sasuke didn't have those flames, because it's clearly shown here.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Except he doesn't. He didn't even know what Rock Lee used against him and never learned about the Gates until the War.


But wait, wasn't he the general commander? 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara was dicking around. He wasn't serious the entire engagement with Guy's Seventh Gated form. He just danced around every attack and was *always one step ahead.* Guy never landed a blow. Know why I keep using the Hinata comparison, since its the exact same thing. But you apply double standards to claim it wasn't since you want Guy to be stronger and faster than he actually IS.
> 
> Guy is not faster than a Juubi Jin without the Eighth Gate. That's absurdity to think that he is faster than Madara without it! He couldn't even blitz Edo Madara, so why do you believe he's faster than the Juubi Jin incarnation?


I never once said that Gai was stronger than PST Madara, I just said he was faster. Which is true because Gai surprised him with his speed, *a panel*, which you are ignoring.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Can't enhance things when you're in mid-air. A will always fall at the same rate regardless of the shroud being active if he's in mid-air.


Then what was the point of the shroud? 



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> This is just a bunch of wank and you know it. Madara wasn't serious. He wasn't fighting back. He danced around all of Guy's attacks. Guy never blitzed him UNTIL the Eighth Gate was used. Madara comfortably dealt with him while literally finding with both hands behind his back.
> 
> Madara *regarded Minato more of a threat than* Guy due to Minato using Senjutsu, the Juubi Jin form's weakness, against him, hence why he bothered to retaliate there while against Guy? He just danced around everything! There was no blitz! Madara wasn't even remotely impressed by Guy's speed!
> 
> Seriously, how much mental gymnastics do you have to do Ryuzaki to make this out to be more impressive than it really was?


What are you talking about? I'm not wanking, I'm just providing my interpretation. For the record, I'm not going through mental gymnastics, I broke it down panel by panel, but each time I do that, you automatically yell "wanking."

The part in bold, Madara wasn't once surprised by Minato's attack, in fact he casually "disarmed" him. Whereas for Gai, he was shocked at his speed but from the looks of it, it wasn't the first time he fought against someone using the 7th Gate, but clearly Gai was a different story, since his speed caught him off guard.

The only difference is that Gai lacked the strength (physically) to damage Madara with just his 7th Gate, which is why he needed the 8th Gate.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Kisame already said Jiraiya was on an entire other tier, he's not much stronger than other members of Akatsuki. Itachi is also Jiraiya's equal, and for all we know Itachi would just hire a group of mercs to fight to be reinforcements, but he knows that wouldn't change.
> 
> What point of: Itachi nor Kisame have the authority to bring in Akatsuki members as backup? Also why do you ignore Jiraiya's performance against


You take one statement at face value but you hold another with a grain of salt.



SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, he was. Its clear as day. Madara wasn't REMOTELY serious. Guy wasn't a threat to him, at ALL. Guy landed no hits (so much for blitzing) and Madara danced around him by literally being one step ahead. Hell even Guy's *fastest punch* was blocked and deflected with ease by Madara.
> 
> You need to stop wanking GUy over something that isn't remotely impressive. Its Hinata vs Deva Path. That's literally what it is.


I've clearly presented my case, we can agree to disagree at this point, since you don't feel like entertaining a discussion anymore, rather all you want to say is that "I am wanking" when I haven't gone out of my way to insult your perspective once.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> *A surprise that was extremely short lived and amounted to no damage at all.*



This surprise attack, was due to Gai's speed, but as I've mentioned Gai doesn't lack the speed but the power/physical strength to harm Madara. That's why he needed the 8th Gate, not for speed but for strength.


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## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2015)

Why is it so important Gai be faster than A when he has much much much much better taijutsu ability ?
Pointless debate and thread really 

Since getting in juudara face doesn't slightly imply he can defeat most or all weaker than juudara . Or Gai would have been portrayed and hyped as the strongest man alive 

Since we can all agree no ninja weaker than juudara has better reactions than juudara 

Yet no one in the manga revers Gai 7th gate power at all 

so yes he pressured juudara in taijutsu he is the best at taijutsu . One doesn't need to be super fast to be the best at taijutsu 

Even hiashi has better taijutsu than A . Despite being a fly by comparison


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Because Madara was chilling. Just look at it here. It's painfully obvious:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yeah man. 

I still don't understand why Sasuke wasn't promoted straight to Jounin. Look how much pressure he put on Kakashi : Link removed


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> A surprise that was extremely short lived and amounted to no damage at all.



The fact it dealt no damage at all proves nothing. It is irrelevant.



> And since Madara countered Guy's fastest attack it hardly means that he couldn't land a hit before if he really tried. He said it himself-that Guy was not treating him seriously by using just the 7th Gate and so he hardly treated him seriously either.



He countered a result of Gai making that "fastest punch" (Hirudora sign). An after-effect of that "fastest attack". And he did that when he was already hit by that after-effect. Gai stood there, doing nothing, yet Juubidara couldnt cut him down, because he was already flying away due to Tiger Air hitting him. And it is visible in the manga.

And he said that *before* Gai attacked him. Juubidara was clearly surprised by his movement speed, clearly dodged his attacks (why dodging the attacks of someone you dont take seriously, when you are a Juubi Jin with super-regeneration?), clearly couldnt counter-attack him because of barrage of punches with which Gai pressured him and couldnt prevent him from making "the fastest punch".



> If surprising someone and not being owned in one panel is a great accomplishment then I guess Kiba accomplished much against Obito by making him go "!"
> 2
> Obito couldn't prevent Kiba from performing Getsuga either. Guess Obito was in trouble.



Obito was clearly toying around with Kiba and the rest. He wasnt serious in that fight. He wasnt trying to fight them in the same way he tried to fight KCM Naruto, Kakashi and Gai at once.

The situation with Juubidara is different. Because, although he underestimated Gai at the beginning, he didnt expect him to be that fast and wasnt toying with him later.

Bad example. I'll counter next one.



> Or Sasuke was owning KB by making him go "?!" too and not being owned in just 3 panels.
> 2



Sasuke was fast enough to compete with Bee for some time. He could even dodge his Hachibi-enchanced attack later.

It's like a real fight. Your opponent is serious with you, but you can dodge/block his attacks, you dodge them, you block them and then boom - you got punched to the jaw. The same happened there. Plus, Bee changed tactics. 

Again - bad example. Do you have more for me to nullify?



> LOL what 7th Gate Guy accomplished was not being able to land a single hit and having his strongest move defeated without it inflicting any damage to Madara.



Why in the world the fact he dealt no damage matters in this debate? It is irrelevant, completely.

7 Gate Gai surprised a sensor SM Juubi Jin with the sheer movement speed.

7 Gate Gai pressurred him with his taijutsu moves in a close distance, not giving him a chance to do anything but dodge/block his hits.

7 Gate Gai utilised his fastest punch, which Juubidara couldnt prevent from being utilised. 

And Juubidara barely reacted to defused air in a form of Tiger *after* it sent him flying away. 



> Sasuke at least pierced SM Madara with his sword-not needing Susanoo even- and Gaara hurt and slowed him down with sand.



SM Madara allowed him to do that. 

And Gaara hurt him when Madara was in a free fall. In the air.



> And Minato reacted to Madara's gudoudamas and saved Guy from being hit by those.



When 8 Gate Gai slowed down in order to give his team an opportunity to help him hit Juubidara himself, not his Gudoudama ball. 

*Amped* Minato got blitzed by Juubidara. 



> ^ Exactly. Thanks Arles Celes! Heh, those and the Hinata example illustrate Seventh Gated Guy vs Juubi Jin Madara perfectly.



Hinata example? Hinata was all out, protecting her love and Nagato was exhausted after using so many jutsus.

Bad example. Maybe you have another one?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> False dichonomy's there. Itachi isn't invincible since nothing is invincible in the Narutoverse, and Sakura had achieved power comparable to KCM Naruto, not BM.



And Ei wasnt faster than 7 Gate Gai. That statement was nullified by the manga itself later. Just like the statement about Itachi, about Kabuto, about Kimimaro, about Hiruzen, about Pain and many others.



> Yeah man.
> 
> I still don't understand why Sasuke wasn't promoted straight to Jounin. Look how much pressure he put on Kakashi : 2



*Do you understand that Kakashi wasnt trying to fight Sasuke?*

Of course, he was impressed by him, but it wasnt a fight to the death during The World War. It was an exam and the main objective for Kakashi was not to let students take his bells. Kakashi was holding himself back the whole time.

Juubidara, however, wasnt.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> I believe panel was drawn by Kishimoto to show us how fast Gai was through expression alone. He didn't even have to draw that small detail with Gai's 7th Gate aura in the bottom right hand corner that most people can even miss. In fact, there were two panels of Gai arriving in front of Madara. The panel you posted LostSelf, and the panel after it. I think it was to emphasize how 'in-your face' Gai was compared to Minato's assault on Madara.



Um, that could be the same moment, just from another angle.


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## LostSelf (Aug 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah man.
> 
> I still don't understand why Sasuke wasn't promoted straight to Jounin. Look how much pressure he put on Kakashi : 2


Yes, Sasuke surprises Kakashi being better than what he actually expected and forced Kakashi out of the chilling zone. The same thing Gai did.

Now enlighten me how this compares to doing something against a man that was instantly murdering anybody that attempted to fight him. Oh wait, he was serious with everybody save Gai


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## Jad (Aug 3, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Um, that could be the same moment, just from another angle.



Yeah, true, that was my point though. Emphasize Gai's appearance in front of Madara, twice.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, Sasuke surprises Kakashi being better than what he actually expected and forced Kakashi out of the chilling zone. The same thing Gai did.
> 
> Now enlighten me how this compares to doing something against a man that was instantly murdering anybody that attempted to fight him. Oh wait, he was serious with everybody save Gai



Yeah, when Kakashi wasnt trying to fight him, at all. It wasnt a world war, it wasnt a mortal combat. It was an exam, where Kakashi wanted to prevent his future students from getting his bells. But nobody seems to care about that.


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## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2015)

Juudara didnt underestimate gai at all
However getting in juudara face isn't some impossible feat 
Minato did it and got slapped away 

Difference is gai had the element of surprise since juudara LoS was blocked and gai is simply far more skilled than minato in CQC 

Also minato was handicapped and couldn't use rasen flash dance 

So let's not act like minato could have given it his all


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2015)

Black Zetsu > Gai since he defeated full powered Madara.
and his hand cut through madara unlike 8th Gate Gai

Chojiro impressed Zetsu. 

you have to go to the top tier and leave fodders like Gai and A.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> Minato did it and got slapped away



Thanks to FTG, not a sheer movement speed. And Juubidara wasnt surprised when Minato appeared before him.

 It very well may be that he wanted Minato to come close, since he knew about Hiraishin. But that is an assumption.



> Difference is gai had the element of surprise since juudara LoS was blocked



Everybody seems to forget that Juubidara is a sensor. Even blind alive Madara could outperform SM Naruto and Sai at once thanks to his sensing.

It doesnt matter than Minato couldnt use Flash Dance. As soon as he, along with his clone/clones get close to Juubidara, Juubidara swings his staff and cuts clones with Minato himself. SM Minato got his hand cut off, got his hand kicked away and got himself kicked away, with inability to teleport away.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> Black Zetsu > Gai since he defeated full powered Madara.



Attacking him from behind when Juubidara didnt expect that at all, thinking that Black Zetsu was his will. Plus, Black Zetsu is pretty fast, giving lots of trouble to BM Minato and Kakashi by staying on Obito. He could even dodge Minato's strike once. It seems that Black Zetsu was playing around to not arouse suspicion during most of the Shippuden.

As for hand - Night Moth took out half of his torso, with left hand.


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## Jad (Aug 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Juudara didnt underestimate gai at all
> However getting in juudara face isn't some impossible feat
> Minato did it and got slapped away
> 
> ...



Madara didn't have his LOS blocked. The Aura Gai was emitting was still well aways from Madara. Meaning the moment Gai ran at Madara, the massive Aura disappeared. Madara isn't IN the blast range of the Aura, his outside of it, and he was focusing on that massive blast of energy (I just double checked). Plus Madara clearly says he felt underestimated by Gai not using Red Steam.


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## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2015)

His LoS was blocked we even seen him putting his hand to his face 

point is it's far more an emphasis on gai taijutsu ability than gai speed

juudara in the end calls gai the best taijutsu user he has ever faced not the fastest ninja he has ever fought despite gai using 8th gate 

Not saying he isn't faster than everyone in 8th gate but juudara again points out gai taijutsu ability not his speed


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes, Sasuke surprises Kakashi being better than what he actually expected and forced Kakashi out of the chilling zone. The same thing Gai did.
> 
> Now enlighten me how this compares to doing something against a man that was instantly murdering anybody that attempted to fight him. Oh wait, he was serious with everybody save Gai



No. You enlighten me...  How is what Madara did to Gai is any different than what he did to Minato again ? 

The instant he was up against an attack that could potentialy become a problem for him, he 1 shot his opponent. 

Madara wasn't serious against anyone, save maybe Naruto and Sauce because he was aware that he was much stronger than everyone he was up against.

Sasuke pushing Kakashi  back = Gai pushing Madara back.
It is exactly the same thing.

I just find this amount of nit picking ridiculous


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## Jad (Aug 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> His LoS was blocked we even seen him putting his hand to his face
> 
> point is it's far more an emphasis on gai taijutsu ability than gai speed
> 
> ...



That's the thing though. If you and me are 20 meters apart, and I throw a smoke bomb that covers a 5 meter radius, and I start running at you. You're going to see me running at you. Better yet, in Gai's case, the smoke bomb that covered the 5 meter radius disappears the moment he starts running at you. Thus Gai appearing infront of Madara, with that shock looking expression, is a speed feat in my opinion.

You say his LOS is blocked, yet his arm in all the panel shots don't show him covering his eyes, nor do any of the panels show him closing his one eye. Maybe Madara didn't want chunks rock hitting him in the face (as durable as he is) or shit going up his nose. Doesn't matter, everyone put their arms up in front of their face, but not to cover their eyes.


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## Mercurial (Aug 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. You enlighten me...  How is what Madara did to Gai is any different than what he did to Minato again ?
> 
> The instant he was up against an attack that could potentialy become a problem for him, he 1 shot his opponent.
> 
> ...



Because Minato was counterblitzed and hit, without being able to react on two hit one after another, before he could even end his finish his attack, let alone land the hit. While Gai was much faster, hence he could finish his attack, attack again, and pressure Madara, who was able to parry and dodge his hits but not that faster that he could completely counterblitz Gai like he did with Minato, hence he was pushed back and had to resort to overpowering Gai at the end. You can clearly see how 7th Gate Gai's speed and taijutsu >>> SM Minato's reflexes and striking speed. Especially when you have Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and cutting Minato's arm before he could even end to try to attack him with Rasengan and Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and only overpowering, but not outspeeding, Gai's fastest punch in 7th Gate; if Gai was slower, his arm would have been cut like Minato's was.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Because Minato was counterblitzed and hit, without being able to react on two hit one after another, before he could even end his finish his attack, let alone land the hit. While Gai was much faster, hence he could finish his attack, attack again, and pressure Madara, who was able to parry and dodge his hits but not that faster that he could completely counterblitz Gai like he did with Minato, hence he was pushed back and had to resort to overpowering Gai at the end. You can clearly see how 7th Gate Gai's speed and taijutsu >>> SM Minato's reflexes and striking speed. Especially when you have Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and cutting Minato's arm before he could even end to try to attack him with Rasengan and Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and only overpowering, but not outspeeding, Gai's fastest punch in 7th Gate; if Gai was slower, his arm would have been cut like Minato's was.



Why nobody cares about the fact Kakashi's and Sasuke's situation happened during the exam? Why nobody cares about the fact Kakashi wasnt fighting Sasuke at all - just preventing him from getting bells? Why nobody cares about that? 

*Why nobody cares about the fact Juubidara was a sensor and continue to write about his blocked LoS?* Although even before getting Sage Mode and Juubi's chakra, Madara could outclass both SM Naruto and Sai at the same time while being blind, thanks to his sensing. 



> That's the thing though. If you and me are 20 meters apart, and I throw a smoke bomb that covers a 5 meter radius, and I start running at you. You're going to see me running at you. Better yet, in Gai's case, the smoke bomb that covered the 5 meter radius disappears the moment he starts running at you. Thus Gai appearing infront of Madara, with that shock looking expression, is a speed feat in my opinion.
> 
> You say his LOS is blocked, yet his arm in all the panel shots don't show him covering his eyes, nor do any of the panels show him closing his one eye. Maybe Madara didn't want chunks rock hitting him in the face (as durable as he is) or shit going up his nose. Doesn't matter, everyone put their arms up in front of their face, but not to cover their eyes.



*Maybe i missed something in the manga, but how is that relevant anyway, when Juubidara is an exceptional sensor? 

Gai in 7th Gate was so fast that even such a sensor, as Juubidara, was surprised by his movement speed, although he could sense him all this time. Am i right?*

*Maybe i missed something. Maybe i am wrong. So please, anybody, explain to me why nobody cares about those.*


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. You enlighten me...  How is what Madara did to Gai is any different than what he did to Minato again ?
> 
> The instant he was up against an attack that could potentialy become a problem for him, he 1 shot his opponent.
> 
> ...


Well, Madara wasn't dicking around because he had to exploit an opening to hit Gai. Plus, he didn't use Limbo, he didn't use Susano'o and he didn't use any of his other techniques that he would to normally defend against an attack that catches him off guard. 

Madara was put in a tough spot, he couldn't react to Gai's speed or taijutsu until the very end. The good news for him is that Gai never had the strength to damage/harm him, but nothing in this scuffle doesn't indicate that Gai wasn't faster, especially when this happened to Minato and co. 

If not for this happening moments before Gai engaged him in 7th Gate, I wouldn't push the envelope this far. Because Madara went from utterly stomping SM Minato, with not one but two hits to getting pushed back Gai.



Raikiri19 said:


> Because Minato was counterblitzed and hit, without being able to react on two hit one after another, before he could even end his finish his attack, let alone land the hit. While Gai was much faster, hence he could finish his attack, attack again, and pressure Madara, who was able to parry and dodge his hits but not that faster that he could completely counterblitz Gai like he did with Minato, hence he was pushed back and had to resort to overpowering Gai at the end. You can clearly see how 7th Gate Gai's speed and taijutsu >>> SM Minato's reflexes and striking speed. Especially when you have Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and cutting Minato's arm before he could even end to try to attack him with Rasengan and Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and only overpowering, but not outspeeding, Gai's fastest punch in 7th Gate; if Gai was slower, his arm would have been cut like Minato's was.



So much this. 

Plus, Gai did parry the hit to some degree because he suffered few broken ribs and part of his left arm were broken.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, Madara wasn't dicking around because he had to exploit an opening to hit Gai. Plus, he didn't use Limbo, he didn't use Susano'o and he didn't use any of his other techniques that he would to normally defend against an attack that catches him off guard.
> 
> Madara was put in a tough spot, he couldn't react to Gai's speed or taijutsu until the very end. The good news for him is that Gai never had the strength to damage/harm him, but nothing in this scuffle doesn't indicate that Gai wasn't faster, especially when this happened to Minato and co.
> 
> ...



Dude, help me. Some people are writing posts about Juubidara's blocked LoS. But how is that relevant anyway, when Juubidara is a great sensor?

Some people brought Kakashi and Sasuke example, but why nobody cares about the fact it was an exam and Kakashi wasnt fighting at all, making those expressions because he was impressed by Sasuke's abilities?

*Maybe i am wrong in something? *


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Dude, help me. Some people are writing posts about Juubidara's blocked LoS. But how is that relevant anyway, when Juubidara is a great sensor?
> 
> Some people brought Kakashi and Sasuke example, but why nobody cares about the fact it was an exam and Kakashi wasnt fighting at all, making those expressions because he was impressed by Sasuke's abilities?
> 
> *Maybe i am wrong in something? *



I don't believe his LoS was blocked, he clearly saw the blue steam surrounding Gai and mocked him for not using the red steam. Right after he finished, Gai surprised him with his speed, as in he definitely didn't expect Gai to be as fast he was. I'm not sure about the sensor part.

That's a poor example to substitute because Madara outright bitched SM Minato on two different hits (neither one SM Minato could react to) and no one in this forum would dare say that the Raikage > SM Minato, when Base Minato was clearly faster than the Raikage. 

But 7th Gated Gai clearly pushed him back and proved to be faster than SM Minato w/Hiraishin Rasengan Blitz, that is absolute fact.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I don't believe his LoS was blocked, he clearly saw the blue steam surrounding Gai and mocked him for not using the red steam. Right after he finished, Gai surprised him with his speed, as in he definitely didn't expect Gai to be as fast he was. I'm not sure about the sensor part.
> 
> That's a poor example to substitute because Madara outright bitched SM Minato on two different hits (neither one SM Minato could react to) and no one in this forum would dare say that the Raikage > SM Minato, when Base Minato was clearly faster than the Raikage.
> 
> But 7th Gated Gai clearly pushed him back and proved to be faster than SM Minato w/Hiraishin Rasengan Blitz, that is absolute fact.



RT Madara, completely blind, outperformed SM Naruto and Sai at the same time, thanks to his sensing. Edo Madara felt Hashirama's chakra far away.

Juubidara is RT Madara + Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode + Juubi's chakra.

Maybe LoS was blocked, maybe wasnt. But how that's relevant anyway, when Juubidara, due to his sensing, felt Gai all that time? So that feat is even better, because even such a sensor, as Juubidara, who could sense Gai, was surprised by Gai's movement speed.

But maybe i am wrong? Maybe Juubidara couldnt sense him because of something? Maybe i missed something in manga? 

In my opinion, that's a poor example because it was not a death match during the world war - it was an exam were, for Kakashi, fighting wasnt an objective, so he wasnt even fighting at all with Sasuke and made those face expressions because he was surprised about how good Sasuke was.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> No, because Sasuke didn't have those flames, because it's clearly shown here.


There's an Amaterasu orb on top of Sasuke's Susano'o ribcage.



> But wait, wasn't he the general commander?


Doesn't mean he knows everything about the shinobi under him.



> I never once said that Gai was stronger than PST Madara, I just said he was faster. Which is true because Gai surprised him with his speed, *a panel*, which you are ignoring.


The whole '!' isn't proof at all. Something like this happens ALL the time in the manga, only rarely (like when A, Minato, or Naruto use their speed) its considered a blitz. Kakashi had a '!' reaction during the Genin test against Sasuke for god sake. Guy never surprised Madara with speed. He wasn't faster till the Eighth Gate (which showed how Madara explicitly couldn't react to his movements there and could only turtle down).


> Then what was the point of the shroud?


when mid-air, defense. Seriously, when in mid air you can't fall faster no matter what you do unless you can fly. 



> What are you talking about? I'm not wanking, I'm just providing my interpretation. For the record, I'm not going through mental gymnastics, I broke it down panel by panel, but each time I do that, you automatically yell "wanking."


Since it is wanking. You're making a feat better when it was one of the most obvious Worf Barrages in the entire manga. Guy never landed a blow. Guy's fastest punch was reacted to and turned against him. He ended up injuring himself and Madara wasn't even amused. There was no blitz. Guy was never faster than Madara in the Seventh Gate, that is where you're using the mental gymnastics.


> The part in bold, Madara wasn't once surprised by Minato's attack, in fact he casually "disarmed" him. Whereas for Gai, he was shocked at his speed but from the looks of it, it wasn't the first time he fought against someone using the 7th Gate, but clearly Gai was a different story, since his speed caught him off guard.


Except he wasn't shocked at the speed at all. Minato posed more of a threat, which is why Madara defended himself. Against Guy? He just danced around his attacks and was consistently a step ahead of him. Guy, not in speed nor strength was a threat to Madara in the Seventh Gate.


> The only difference is that Gai lacked the strength (physically) to damage Madara with just his 7th Gate, which is why he needed the 8th Gate.


Guy's speed did SHIT. Madara, in every picture you posted was ONE STEP AHEAD OF GUY! Guy punches, misses, he does a bunch of flips and tries to sweep Madara's leg, misses again, Guy then goes for Hirudora which Madara, his self proclaimed _fastest punch_ and Madara deflects it right back at him with ease.

What Guy did isn't remotely impressive. You have to do mental gymnastics, right as you did above, to claim it was.


> You take one statement at face value but you hold another with a grain of salt.


Since the Jiraiya one was proven with feats. Since the A one was proven with feats. You disregard both in favor of your favorites, Ryuzaki. That's no way to debate.



> I've clearly presented my case, we can agree to disagree at this point, since you don't feel like entertaining a discussion anymore, rather all you want to say is that "I am wanking" when I haven't gone out of my way to insult your perspective once.


Sorry Ryuzaki, it is wanking. Your making a feat out better than it actually is. Actually claiming Guy in the Seventh Gate is _faster than a Juubi Jin_ with a straight face is the epitome of wanking. I'm saying this as a Guy *fan*, he's no where near fast enough until the Eighth Gate which he used to genuinely blitz Madara. You even refuse to admit Madara wasn't serious against Seventh Gated Guy and didn't even bother fighting back because the Seventh Gate is no threat to him.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Well, Madara wasn't dicking around because he had to exploit an opening to hit Gai. Plus, he didn't use Limbo, he didn't use Susano'o and he didn't use any of his other techniques that he would to normally defend against an attack that catches him off guard.
> 
> Madara was put in a tough spot, he couldn't react to Gai's speed or taijutsu until the very end. The good news for him is that Gai never had the strength to damage/harm him, but nothing in this scuffle doesn't indicate that Gai wasn't faster, especially when this happened to Minato and co.
> 
> If not for this happening moments before Gai engaged him in 7th Gate, I wouldn't push the envelope this far. Because Madara went from utterly stomping SM Minato, with not one but two hits to getting pushed back Gai.






Raikiri19 said:


> Because Minato was counterblitzed and hit, without being able to react on two hit one after another, before he could even end his finish his attack, let alone land the hit. While Gai was much faster, hence he could finish his attack, attack again, and pressure Madara, who was able to parry and dodge his hits but not that faster that he could completely counterblitz Gai like he did with Minato, hence he was pushed back and had to resort to overpowering Gai at the end. You can clearly see how 7th Gate Gai's speed and taijutsu >>> SM Minato's reflexes and striking speed. Especially when you have Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and cutting Minato's arm before he could even end to try to attack him with Rasengan and Juudara swinging his Gudodama staff and only overpowering, but not outspeeding, Gai's fastest punch in 7th Gate; if Gai was slower, his arm would have been cut like Minato's was.



Minato tries to land a rasengan, gets oneshot.
Gai tries to land a hirudora, gets oneshot.

There is a difference, Hirudora is a projectile. All Gai needs to do is to clap his hands. Its different with Rasengan. Minato actually has to move his arm and pretty much punch Madara to be able to land it.

Also no one is arguing that Minato is as fast as Gai. I am only arguing that Madara oneshot both of them when he felt like it was necessary, Gai's speed wasn't a threat at all.


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## Alex Payne (Aug 3, 2015)

I wonder which is faster - Hirudora or 7th Gated Gai movement speed...


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## Arles Celes (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> This surprise attack, was due to Gai's speed, but as I've mentioned Gai doesn't lack the speed but the power/physical strength to harm Madara. That's why he needed the 8th Gate, not for speed but for strength.



If 7th Gate Guy's speed was so great then Madara wouldn't react to AT and would get hit by it.

If 7th Gate Guy was so fast then Madara wouldn't have dodged/blocked all of his attacks.

Madara would receive at least a few hits...and his durability/regeneration would show that all 7th Gate Guy lacks is power and not speed.

Madara could still block attacks even from 8th Gate Guy but his speed started to cause him trouble for the first time.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> The whole '!' isn't proof at all. Something like this happens ALL the time in the manga, only rarely (like when A, Minato, or Naruto use their speed) its considered a blitz. Kakashi had a '!' reaction during the Genin test against Sasuke for god sake. Guy never surprised Madara with speed. He wasn't faster till the Eighth Gate (which showed how Madara explicitly couldn't react to his movements there and could only turtle down).



A Genin test. That is why that example is not suitable here. Kakashi wasnt fighting Sasuke. He was trying to prevent him from taking the bells. And the "!" thing was because he was surprised by how good Sasuke was. 

Gai clearly surprised Juubidara with his speed. His face expression, which you ignore (not just "!", but Juubidara's surprised face) shows that. 



> Since it is wanking. You're making a feat better when it was one of the most obvious Worf Barrages in the entire manga. Guy never landed a blow. Guy's fastest punch was reacted to and turned against him. He ended up injuring himself and Madara wasn't even amused. There was no blitz. Guy was never faster than Madara in the Seventh Gate, that is where you're using the mental gymnastics.



You are trying to downplay his feat. 

Gai never landed a blow? Doesnt matter - Juubidara never landed a blow on him either.

Gai's fastest punch was reacted to? No, it wasnt. *You dont know how Hirudora works.* Gai makes a Hirudora sign, which is the fastest punch itself, and than an Air Tiger Head comes out. Remember that after making the sign, Gai is not moving at all? Remember the Hirudora explanation after Gai defeated Kisame? Gai made that fastest punch and Juubidara couldnt prevent him from doing that. Juubidara could react only to defused air, which, nevertheless, hit him before he swang his staff. Because he couldnt cut down Gai, although he was standing there, doing nothing. And because in the manga, it is visible that he is flying away.

Gai could compete with Juubidara in CQC and could surprise him with his speed. It is a manga fact.



> Except he wasn't shocked at the speed at all. Minato posed more of a threat, which is why Madara defended himself. Against Guy? He just danced around his attacks and was consistently a step ahead of him. Guy, not in speed nor strength was a threat to Madara in the Seventh Gate.



Wasnt shocked at the speed at all? He was, due to his face expressions. 

Gai was a threat, since Juubidara knew taijutsu works on him. There was no sense to play around with him. Gai clearly was fast enough to compete with him. Because there is no evidence, literally no evidence Juubidara was playing around.



> Guy's speed did SHIT. Madara, in every picture you posted was ONE STEP AHEAD OF GUY! Guy punches, misses, he does a bunch of flips and tries to sweep Madara's leg, misses again, Guy then goes for Hirudora which Madara, his self proclaimed fastest punch and Madara deflects it right back at him with ease.
> 
> What Guy did isn't remotely impressive. You have to do mental gymnastics, right as you did above, to claim it was.



If Juubidara was 1 step ahead, he would have counter-attacked him. But he wasnt. I understand that you dont like what Kishimoto did with Gai, but that's what he did with him. 

Juubidara, although being a sensor, was surprised by his speed. Face expression. Juubidara couldnt prevent Gai from making Hirudora sign (fastest punch itself), Juubidara couldnt cut him down later due to being hit by defused air in a form of Tiger's head. And Juubidara was pressured by his barrage of hits in CQC.

It was. You are trying to nullify Gai's feats, but *you dont have any proofs of Juubidara playing around there. 
*



> Since the Jiraiya one was proven with feats. Since the A one was proven with feats. You disregard both in favor of your favorites, Ryuzaki. That's no way to debate.



*What you are doing there is no way to debate. Every, and i mean EVERY of your arguements were countered in this debate, yet you continue to write exactly the same countered arguements. *

Ei's *TOP SPEED* was outpaced by KCM Naruto. Ei's *TOP SPEED* was countered by Edo Madara. 7 Gate Gai surprised Juubidara with his speed, pressured him with his taijutsu and made Hirudora punch so fast Juubidara couldnt prevent him from making it and reacted to the result of that punch after it hit him, not being capable of cutting down Gai, although he stood there and did nothing.

Ei, even in V2, is not even *remotively close* to the speed of 7 Gate Gai. 



> Sorry Ryuzaki, it is wanking. Your making a feat out better than it actually is. Actually claiming Guy in the Seventh Gate is faster than a Juubi Jin with a straight face is the epitome of wanking. I'm saying this as a Guy fan, he's no where near fast enough until the Eighth Gate which he used to genuinely blitz Madara. You even refuse to admit Madara wasn't serious against Seventh Gated Guy and didn't even bother fighting back because the Seventh Gate is no threat to him.



Claiming that in that confrontation 7 Gate Gai did nothing impressive is the *epitome of hating*. And i personally dont know what is worse - to hate a character, or to wank a character. He cant admit that nonsense you wrote so many times. Because it is nonsense. 

You are ignoring the manga, you continue to write the exact same things which have been refuted already. You dont even know how Gai's Hirudora works. Yet you are claiming that someone is wanking. *I claim that you are hating, a lot. *

And finally...

Madara havent played with SM Naruto and Sai, havent played with Edo Tobirama, havent played with Tailed Beasts, havent played with SM Minato, yet he will play with Gai for some reason?


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> Minato tries to land a rasengan, gets oneshot.
> Gai tries to land a hirudora, gets oneshot.
> 
> There is a difference, Hirudora is a projectile. All Gai needs to do is to clap his hands. Its different with Rasengan. Minato actually has to move his arm and pretty much punch Madara to be able to land it.
> ...



Gai has to make a sign and "punch the air" with that sign, as it is shown in the manga, not "slap his hands". And that sign is the fastest punch itself. 

Base Minato can probably be as fast as base Gai, but 7 Gate Gai is a lot faster than Minato. You have yet to prove Juubidara was playing around there.


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## LostSelf (Aug 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No. You enlighten me...  How is what Madara did to Gai is any different than what he did to Minato again ?
> 
> The instant he was up against an attack that could potentialy become a problem for him, he 1 shot his opponent.
> 
> ...



Let me enlighten you then.

First of all, i'm going to clarify you that this has nothing to do with Gai being on "Juudara's power level", like you ironicaly claimed Sasuke to be. 

No, Sasuke pushing Kakashi back is not like Gai pushing Madara back. Sasuke wasn't an enemy, Gai was. This comparison is moot. Aside from that, it doesn't diminish Sasuke's feat of almost taking the bell off Kakashi. But let's go with Gai.

Madara clearly underrated Gai as when he said Gai was underestimating him. Madara only reacted when Gai was already on his face. Why? Well, it's clearly drawn. By the time Madara is surprised (image posted before), Gai was already in front of Madara. What does this tell us?

First of all, that Gai proved to be much faster than what Madara thought.
Second, Gai was able to get into that position without being killed, therefore he had to move fast enough in order to not be stopped and kicked aside like it happened to Minato.

In other words, when Madara underestimates Gai, Gai shuts his mouth appearing right in front of his face with pure speed, Madara is visibly surprised, so much to the point of being stupidly (and forgive me) ilogical to say he was chilling _out in that exact part_.

After that, Madara regained his cool and jumped back. However, before the jumping back, Gai made Madara eats his own tongue.

What do i claim with this? That Gai is in Juudara's level like you falsely said? No. But funnily enough, Sasuke was able to track V2 Ei when he was dashing in a linear fashion towards him. The Susano'o clones were able to force Ei to block.
Gai, on the other hand, got closer to Madara than Minato without being tossed aside (did better, no matter how much we can look at it. fodderized? Yes. But did way, way better). Gai also interrupted a full power Madara's mid-strike with a punch from a distance that made Hachibi look smaller than Naruto. While Ei was having troubles with clones.

Do you want to discard Gai making Madara jump back? Do it. What can't be discarded is what happened before that, and Madara's surprise is a testament to that.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> If 7th Gate Guy's speed was so great then Madara wouldn't react to AT and would get hit by it.



He was hit by it. It is shown in the manga how he is already sent flying away when he swings his staff. And that Tiger air is a defused air, the result of making the fastest punch, to which Juubidara couldnt react.



> If 7th Gate Guy was so fast then Madara wouldn't have dodged/blocked all of his attacks.



Yet he couldnt counter-attack Gai, which he did with SM Minato, for example, and was pressured by a barrage of hits. 



> Madara would receive at least a few hits...and his durability/regeneration would show that all 7th Gate Guy lacks is power and not speed.
> 
> Madara could still block attacks even from 8th Gate Guy but his speed started to cause him trouble for the first time.



Can you prove that all attacks of 8 Gate Gai are faster than all attacks of 7 Gate Gai? Gai, in 7 Gate, cant ignite the air itself with his basic punches, although it is possible in 6 Gate. Asakujaku says hello. Juubidara could react to EE's first step, but that doesnt refute my point.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Let me enlighten you then.
> 
> First of all, i'm going to clarify you that this has nothing to do with Gai being on "Juudara's power level", like you ironicaly claimed Sasuke to be.
> 
> ...



Also, Juubidara is a sensor. That makes Gai's feat even more impressive, when Juubidara could feel him the whole time.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> If 7th Gate Guy's speed was so great then Madara wouldn't react to AT and would get hit by it.
> 
> If 7th Gate Guy was so fast then Madara wouldn't have dodged/blocked all of his attacks.
> 
> ...


Madara did get hit by AT, at the cost of hitting Gai and they did exchange blows in Gai's initial taijutsu exchange. Gai only lacked strength to effectively harm Madara, his speed caught Madara off-guard.


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## LostSelf (Aug 3, 2015)

Yes. That's the only part i'm arguing. The panel with Gai appearing in one panel in front of Madara, and the next panel showing Madara being surprised.

If Madara tracked Gai all the way right to CqC combat distance, he would've stopped Gai on his tracks, there wouldn't have been the need of drawing a surprised Madara, since he saw Gai.

Gai wasn't fodderized like Minato. And for those who says Gai had it easier, Minato had a sand barrier that blocks LoS.

Minato appeared and was kicked aside.
Gai appeared, attacked and pushed Madara back (with Hirudora) before being taken down.

If that's being equally fodderized, then this and the definition of a chilling out expression would be too much for me to even try with something too clear.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> If Madara tracked Gai all the way right to CqC combat distance, he would've stopped Gai on his tracks, there wouldn't have been the need of drawing a surprised Madara, since he saw Gai.



Gai was so fast Juubidara couldnt stop him on his tracks and got surprised by how fast Gai was that he managed to travel such a distance in such a short time period.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Madara did get hit by AT, at the cost of hitting Gai and they did exchange blows in Gai's initial taijutsu exchange. Gai only lacked strength to effectively harm Madara, his speed caught Madara off-guard.


Madara wasn't hit by Hirudora. He blocked! Ryuzaki, your interpretation is wrong!


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara wasn't hit by Hirudora. He blocked! Ryuzaki, your interpretation is wrong!



Tell me - why Juubidara havent cut Gai down when he stood there and did nothing at all? Maybe because he swang his staff after being hit by Hirudora, flying away already? 



Even his Juubi clothes and hair are going "behind", as if he is already flying away.

And by the way, look at the distance here between Gai and Juubidara. It is much closer.


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## Icegaze (Aug 3, 2015)

He split the attack or he would have received some damage and certainly commented on being harmed 

Like he did with EE first attack

Vs standing there with a look of indifference


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> He split the attack or he would have received some damage and certainly commented on being harmed
> 
> Like he did with EE first attack
> 
> Vs standing there with a look of indifference



Dude, even 8th Gate EE barely made him bleed. Hirudora was just too weak for him and he made the impact weaker by swinging his staff.


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## Trojan (Aug 3, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Yes. That's the only part i'm arguing. The panel with Gai appearing in one panel in front of Madara, and the next panel showing Madara being surprised.
> 
> If Madara tracked Gai all the way right to CqC combat distance, he would've stopped Gai on his tracks, there wouldn't have been the need of drawing a surprised Madara, since he saw Gai.
> 
> ...



Madara saw the Kunai next to his leg. He did attack Minato, but for plot reasons, he did not attack Gai. U_U


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara wasn't hit by Hirudora. He blocked! Ryuzaki, your interpretation is wrong!



He was still hit by it (you can see the tiger face forming around Madara), it was a simultaneous attack, which resulted in Madara not being harmed because Gai wasn't strong enough.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 3, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> I wonder which is faster - Hirudora or 7th Gated Gai movement speed...



I'm pretty sure Gai can outrun his own projectile, his fastest move because he is Gai :ignoramus



Ryuzaki said:


> He was still hit by it (you can see the tiger face forming around Madara), it was a simultaneous attack, which resulted in Madara not being harmed because Gai wasn't strong enough.



He wasn't hit. His staff ripped Hirudora in half. 

I guess you think B was hit by Gokakyu here : in front of



LostSelf said:


> Let me enlighten you then.
> 
> First of all, i'm going to clarify you that this has nothing to do with Gai being on "Juudara's power level", like you ironicaly claimed Sasuke to be.
> 
> ...



Sasuke not being the enemy is irrelevant. 
Whats relevant is the part where Kakashi underestimated Sasuke and Sasuke surprised him.
Sounds familiar right ? 

As for Gai getting closer to Madara and Minato not being able to, Minato was using a senjutsu rasengan, Madara didn't want to get hit by that.
When Gai went in, he was just using punches and kicks and you can see in Marara's face that he wasn't worried. He only decided to retaliate when Gai dished out something serious. 

Again, there is literally no evidence that Gai's speed was an issue for Madara at all.

Madara can swing his staff by the time Gai can bring his hands together. He was clearly just as fast or at least fast enough to keep up.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Aug 3, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> He was still hit by it (you can see the tiger face forming around Madara), it was a simultaneous attack, which resulted in Madara not being harmed because Gai wasn't strong enough.


Madara blocked it, he wasn't hit at all. We even see him cutting the Hirudora in half with his Gudodama staff.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Madara saw the Kunai next to his leg. He did attack Minato, but for plot reasons, he did not attack Gai. U_U



He couldnt hit Gai.



> Sasuke not being the enemy is irrelevant.
> Whats relevant is the part where Kakashi underestimated Sasuke and Sasuke surprised him.
> Sounds familiar right ?
> 
> ...



It is relevant. Not only he wasnt an enemy - it wasnt a fight at all. Kakashi wasnt fighting him. That was a completely different situation.

Yeah, and Juubidara didnt want to get hit by Gai, a *Gates user* and a *taijutsu master*, because he was dodging his attack. 

He was suprised by his movement speed and there was no sign in his face that he is playing around.

There is - Juubidara's surprise at the beginning, his worried face expression before an after-effect of Gai's fastest punch appeared. And there is no evidence that he was playing around. You are trying to prove he was playing around, after all. Maybe you can bring here some proofs of that?

Juubidara could swing his staff *after* Gai made a Hirudora sign (the fastest punch itself).



> I wonder which is faster - Hirudora or 7th Gated Gai movement speed...



Gai made the fastest punch (Hirudora sign) and Juubidara couldnt prevent him from making that punch. The defused air in a form of Tiger's head is a result of making that "fastest punch". Just saying.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Madara blocked it, he wasn't hit at all. We even see him cutting the Hirudora in half with his Gudodama staff.



You ignored what i wrote above. Whatever. That's ok. Typical SuperSaiyaMan.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 3, 2015)

> I guess you think B was hit by Gokakyu here : Link removed



He wasnt, because Samehada clearly absorbed Katon's chakra. It is visible in the manga itself.

Juubidara's situation is different. It wasnt shown that he swang his staff before Hirudora connected. In the manga, his hair and clothes are going "behind" due to Hirudora's air. The distance between him and Gai has changed. And he couldnt cut down Gai, although he stood there and did nothing, for some reason.


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## Jad (Aug 3, 2015)

I'm surprised people are saying Madara didn't get hit by Hirudora. Are people missing the next panel? There is a distant shot showing the Juubi Tree and Gai's failed explosion of Hirudora that covers massive distance. Some people may have missed it. However, if yo did not, how did Madara not get hit? Did it do damage? No, but it hit him.

On top of that, I made a recent long post that you can read [], on why I believe Gai pushed Madara much further than what Kishimoto only showed in the panel when Gai engages in Taijutsu. And that is actually based off the Hirudora explosion. If Gai did not push Madara a significant distance, not just a few meters, that massive Hirudora would have flattened Minato and Co. with no forewarning.


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## Ryuzaki (Aug 3, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> He wasn't hit. His staff ripped Hirudora in half.
> 
> I guess you think B was hit by Gokakyu here : covers massive distance


In the aftermath, he was pushed back by the force of Hirudora, the distance between him and Gai increased and you can see the rest of his body being drawn in the manner with his hair being blown back. 

The attack definitely connected, I thought it was obvious that Madara just tanked it.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 4, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> He wasnt, because Samehada clearly absorbed Katon's chakra. It is visible in the manga itself.
> 
> Juubidara's situation is different. It wasnt shown that he swang his staff before Hirudora connected. In the manga, his hair and clothes are going "behind" due to Hirudora's air. The distance between him and Gai has changed. And he couldnt cut down Gai, although he stood there and did nothing, for some reason.






Ryuzaki said:


> In the aftermath, he was pushed back by the force of Hirudora, the distance between him and Gai increased and you can see the rest of his body being drawn in the manner with his hair being blown back.
> 
> The attack definitely connected, I thought it was obvious that Madara just tanked it.



Hirudora has AOE explosion. Manga clearly shows Madara ripping Hirudora in half. It might have exploded around him, but it didn't hit Madara directly.

Saying that Madara was hit by Hirudora is teh same as saying B was hit by Gokakyu or Sasuke was hit by Deidara's C2 here : covers massive distance
In other words, pure horseshit.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 4, 2015)

> Hirudora has AOE explosion. Manga clearly shows Madara ripping Hirudora in half. It might have exploded around him, but it didn't hit Madara directly.
> 
> Saying that Madara was hit by Hirudora is teh same as saying B was hit by Gokakyu or Sasuke was hit by Deidara's C2 here : [2]
> In other words, pure horseshit.



Yeah, that's why his clothes and hair were blown *backwards*. 

And why the distance between him and Gai has changed? Why he couldnt cut down Gai, who stood there, doing nothing?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 4, 2015)

I repeat, Hirudora is an AOE explosion, it exploded around Madara, he wasn't hit directly as you can clearly see in the manga that his staff ripped Hirudora in half. 
The air pressure must have blown his clothes and hair backwards, which is irrelevant to our argument.

Point is, Madara was capable of decommissioning Gai anytime he wanted, and he did. End of discussion.


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## StarWanderer (Aug 4, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I repeat, Hirudora is an AOE explosion, it exploded around Madara, he wasn't hit directly as you can clearly see in the manga that his staff ripped Hirudora in half.
> The air pressure must have blown his clothes and hair backwards, which is irrelevant to our argument.



If it exploded around him, his hair and clothes wouldnt move backwards. It will move in many directions, when there are air flows going in different directions, since it "explode around". And he was flying in one direction after that. Furthermore, the distance between them have changed somehow and Juubidara couldnt cut Gai because of that, althoug Gai was standing there, doing nothing at all. Hirudora hit him. But he swang his staff as soon as that happened.

Anyway, that is irrelevant, since the famous "was playing around, because blocked his fastest punch" arguement has been refuted already.



> Point is, Madara was capable of decommissioning Gai anytime he wanted, and he did. End of discussion.



Wrong point. Do you know why? Because Juubidara, although not playing around (which has been proven already), havent decommissioned him.


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## LostSelf (Aug 4, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Madara saw the Kunai next to his leg. He did attack Minato, but for plot reasons, he did not attack Gai. U_U



This is a terrible excuse, Hussain. Sounds like "Gai cannot do better than Minato" .



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Sasuke not being the enemy is irrelevant.
> Whats relevant is the part where Kakashi underestimated Sasuke and Sasuke surprised him.
> Sounds familiar right ?



And that, had Kakashi the intent of killing, he wouldn't have done so. Remember Minato?


> As for Gai getting closer to Madara and Minato not being able to, Minato was using a senjutsu rasengan, Madara didn't want to get hit by that.



Yeah, right. And Madara saw Gai coming all the way to him and said "Let me look surprised for the lulz". This sound logical.

Taijutsu also hurts Madara, and he regenerated a Night Guy. Considering you said in some post here that Juudara knew he was not going to die, why the need of not being wanted to be hit by a way weaker attack? 



> When Gai went in, he was just using punches and kicks and you can see in Marara's face that he wasn't worried. He only decided to retaliate when Gai dished out something serious.



Yeah, Madara kept his cool in that part. But again, what does this has to do with Gai's initial dash and Madara's initial surprised/worried expression?



> Again, there is literally no evidence that Gai's speed was an issue for Madara at all.



It wasn't, when Madara tried harder. Harder than Minato and harder than Ei. What you can't ignore is how Juudara reacted when Gai was in front of him in one panel. The rest is irrelevant to debate as i'm not debating anything of this.



> Madara can swing his staff by the time Gai can bring his hands together. He was clearly just as fast or at least fast enough to keep up.



What does this has to do with Gai making Juudara react when he already covered such a distance? I see you stuck in Juudara jumping back and such, and i'm not talking about this at all. Before jumping back are a series of panels that needs no explanation of showing Gai's speed.


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