# SM Hashirama vs BM Naruto & EMS sasuke



## ARGUS (Feb 27, 2015)

*SM Hashirama vs EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto*

Location: VOTE 
Starting Distance: 100m 
Intel: Full 
Intent: To Kill 
Mindset: IC 
Restrictions: Chakra sharing
Stipulations: Hashirama starts in SS, naruto and sasuke start with their avatars seperate, but can join them whenever they want 

Scenario 2: Chakra sharing is allowed, however hashirama also gets a V1 cloak 

Who wins?   [/QUOTE]


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

hashirama wins both scenarios 

he can casually stop BM naruto. wood dragon anyone? moukoton is basically created to stop bijuu. 

his gated seal he used on juubito should be more than enough. for naruto. add wood dragon and its over. 

EMS sasuke is of no use in this match. budda assault destroys the useless child


----------



## Trojan (Feb 27, 2015)

Naruto and Sasuke win. 

They are far more important characters than Hashirama, which is all that matter anyway. Also, Hashirama's jutsu are mostly short-mid range. So, Naruto can spam TBB from far away.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

Hashirama.

 Wood Dragon from SM Hashirama will easily restrict BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar while Wood Golem destroys Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.

 Same for both scenarios, V1 Cloak IMO really just improved Sasuke's chakra reserves. It's not doing anything for an high level ninja like Sasuke.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 27, 2015)

I also just noticed Sage Mode is not restricted.

Scenario 1: Sage Mode isn't stricted, so if Naruto gets a chance, he can go BSM, which is likely around equal to SM Hashirama.
The addition of EMS Sasuke puts it in Naruto's favour.

Scenario 2: SM Hashirama with a Chakra Cloak is something to wonder about, considering how it scaled up Kakashi's Kamui and likely Sasuke's Complete Body V3 Susano'o, but then again Naruto can give Sasuke a Chakra Cloak.

I think Naruto and Sasuke Win High Difficulty in both Scenarios.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Hashirama.
> 
> Wood Dragon from SM Hashirama will easily restrict BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar while Wood Golem destroys Sasuke's Perfect Susano'o.
> 
> Same for both scenarios, V1 Cloak IMO really just improved Sasuke's chakra reserves. It's not doing anything for an high level ninja like Sasuke.


EMS Sasuke can't use PS.
Weather he actually could or not is unknown, its feat-less.

We've seen him use up to Version 4 and manifest the lower half on a Version 3.
So you can assume at maximum he can create is a Complete Body Version 4 Susano'o, like Madara did at the end of Chapter 588, before Fixating the Chakra into Perfect Susano'o, except a lot smaller. However, with Naruto's Chakra Cloak he should be able to make it bigger like he actually did with a Complete Body V3.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 27, 2015)

Naruto would probably solo if he's allowed to combine _Sennin Modo_ with his bijuu form (I don't see it in the restrictions). Even without it, both he and EMS Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ would be too much for Hashirama, most likely.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

lol @empthay 

what stops hashirama from simply absorbing naruto chakra or sealing it 

you know mokuton than can put 100% kyuubi to sleep with just a tap


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

Cryorex said:


> EMS Sasuke can't use PS.
> Weather he actually could or not is unknown, its feat-less.
> 
> We've seen him use up to Version 4 and manifest the lower half on a Version 3.
> So you can assume at maximum he can create is a Complete Body Version 4 Susano'o, like Madara did at the end of Chapter 588, before Fixating the Chakra into Perfect Susano'o, except a lot smaller. However, with Naruto's Chakra Cloak he should be able to make it bigger like he actually did with a Complete Body V3.



 It's well established Sasuke can use Perfect Susano'o due to manifesting some traits that Madara's Perfect Susano'o does have. We do witness Sasuke manifesting V4 before his Susano'o does surround BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar. Afterwards, we can clearly see that it is Perfect Susano'o considering it resembled Madara's PS after his Susano'o covered Kurama as well as the facial characteristics that vastly differ from Sasuke's V4 Susano'o as his Susano'o's mouth doesn't retain a beak-like structure and the eyes actually have large White pupils while his V4 Susano'o lacks the trait.

 Madara's Susano'o at the End of Chapter 588 was PS, hence why it's even stated on the page that Madara did indeed summon PS. All that was stated was that Madara need to Stabilize the chakra to bring it out at it's maximum, however, if it was a V4 Susano'o, he'd have to muster up more chakra in order to enhance his Susano'o instead of just stabilizing it.

 Both instances were where PS was displayed. Sasuke's PS is just Unstabilized.

 @Empathy,

 EMS Sasuke's PS is too much when Hashirama could even overpower Madara's far Superior PS w/ 100% Kurama? Hashirama and Madara are both portrayed to be superior until Post-Rikudou power up. Until then, they had yet to surpass Hashirama or Madara.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> lol @empthay
> 
> what stops hashirama from simply absorbing naruto chakra or sealing it
> 
> you know mokuton than can put 100% kyuubi to sleep with just a tap



I don't think he could do it to a perfect jinchuuriki for the same reasons guys like Sasuke, Madara, and Obito couldn't subjugate Kurama with Naruto as a perfect jinchuuriki. _Mokuryuu_ is the only absorption technique I think Hashirama has (unless I'm forgetting something), and Naruto proved he could stop it when Edo Madara used it on him, albeit Naruto has to descend from his full bijuu form. _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ could be more troublesome, but it scales the same with _Sennin_ bijuu Naruto and begets the same result. 

Supercharged _Bijuudamas_ are probably too big for _Mokujin_ to catch and shove back at Naruto. Additionally, Naruto has his physical attacks and _Rasengans_ among other jutsu he can use to combat the wood human. _Renzoku Bijuudama_ is probably too much for _Mokujin_ to catch anyway. Bijuu Naruto without _Sennin Modo_ could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_, so _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ probably isn't stopping bijuu Naruto using _Sennin Modo_ in conjunction. While Naruto's taking a beating from it, a senjutsu-infused, supercharged _Bijuudama_ will probably destroy any mokuton construct Hashirama has (including _Shinsuusenju_) and beat Hashirama. There's also pretty clear portrayal that Naruto surpassed Hashirama leading up Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat.



NarutoX28 said:


> @Empathy,
> 
> EMS Sasuke's PS is too much when Hashirama could even overpower Madara's far Superior PS w/ 100% Kurama? Hashirama and Madara are both portrayed to be superior until Post-Rikudou power up. Until then, they had yet to surpass Hashirama or Madara.



Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ combined with Naruto's bijuu form (without _Sennin Modo_) should edge out against _Sennin_ Hashirama. If Naruto combines his _Sennin Modo_ with Kurama, then he edges out against Hashirama, as I explained above. Hashirama can deal with Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ by himself, but I think EMS Sasuke could beat EMS Madara. He could override or at least disrupt his control over the Kyuubi, and I'd conjecture that Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ should be superior to Madara's based on author portrayal. Why would Naruto and Sasuke each need half of Rikudou Sennin's chakra to finally surpass Hashirama and Madara when they were already operating within their tier before then? That's like saying Naruto surpassed Jiraiya here instead of here. Naruto and Sasuke are hinted at having surpassed or approaching Hashirama and Madara respectively long before then (1) (2) (3) (4). Why wouldn't they have surpassed them with Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat? They really need to have defeated Obito, been killed by revived Madara, and then powered up by Rikudou Sennin himself just to have far and away surpassed their Hashirama/Madara benchmarks by the time they fight final villain Kaguya? That's ridiculous.


----------



## StarWanderer (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> I don't think he could do it to a perfect jinchuuriki for the same reasons guys like Sasuke, Madara, and Obito couldn't subjugate Kurama with Naruto as a perfect jinchuuriki. _Mokuryuu_ is the only absorption technique I think Hashirama has (unless I'm forgetting something), and Naruto proved he could stop it when Edo Madara used it on him, albeit Naruto has to descend from his full bijuu form. _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ could be more troublesome, but it scales the same with _Sennin_ bijuu Naruto and begets the same result.
> 
> Supercharged _Bijuudamas_ are probably too big for _Mokujin_ to catch and shove back at Naruto. Additionally, Naruto has his physical attacks and _Rasengans_ among other jutsu he can use to combat the wood human. _Renzoku Bijuudama_ is probably too much for _Mokujin_ to catch anyway. Bijuu Naruto without _Sennin Modo_ could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_, so _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ probably isn't stopping bijuu Naruto using _Sennin Modo_ in conjunction. While Naruto's taking a beating from it, a senjutsu-infused, supercharged _Bijuudama_ will probably destroy any mokuton construct Hashirama has (including _Shinsuusenju_) and beat Hashirama. There's also pretty clear portrayal that Naruto surpassed Hashirama leading up Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat.



Supercharged Bijuu Damas are easily dodged. Base Hashirama outran full Kurama's Bijuu Dama without any problem and could use techniques while it was still flying (Rashomon). Edo Madara, who is inferior to his alive EMS vertion, outran Onoki's Jinton. Those Bijuu Dama's wont tag SM Hashirama.

Alive Madara, with 1 Rinnegan which does not give precognition, or speed amp, dodged Edo Tobirama's attack thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode, which amped every Madara's ability. Edo Tobirama is in EMS Sasuke's speed class, or even in BM Naruto's speed class because he had very impressive performance against Juubito (tagged Juubito with a FTG mark and tagged him several other times). And Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode is <<<< alive Hashirama's Sage Mode. SM Hashirama can dodge their attacks very well, because he is fast enough. Edo Madara is at least a V2 Raikage-level speedster and base Edo Hashirama reacted to him in CQC. When they are alive, they are even better than that. SM Hashirama is a speedster fast enough to dodge their attacks.

Rasengans wont do anything to Wood Golem, which can catch Madara's PS's blade with its bare hands, absorb the shockwave from it and catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama with 1 hand. Wood Golem is too durable. 

And without Kurama Avatar, there is nothing BM Naruto can do to Hashirama. His movement speed, reaction speed, durability with which he can tank Bijuu Tails level attacks, regeneration and massive AoE mokuton jutsu's are too much even for BM Naruto. In fact, he smells polen - GG.


SM Hashirama can kill EMS Sasuke with his attacks (because EMS Sasuke is a much weaker vertion of EMS Madara) and suppress BM Naruto after that in both scenarious. Wood Dragon and BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar is captured. If he tries to do the same thing he did against Edo Madara's Dragon, than Hashirama can catch Naruto himself in Dragon, just like he did that against Edo Madara. 

It wont be easy but SM Hashirama most likely wins.

And BSM Naruto is <<<<<<<< SM Hashirama. His Kurama Avatar is suppressed with Wood Dragon and without that, he cant do any harm to SM Hashirama. I dont think its debatable.


----------



## Arles Celes (Feb 27, 2015)

Hmmm, if Hashi captures Naruto with Wood Dragon he will absorb his chakra and force him to leave his avatar. Sasuke's PS should be roughly equal to Mokujin IF it is as strong as Madara's.

Normally Hashi would win...but portrayal says that BSM Naruto and PS Sasuke are quite above Madara's Kyuusano since they managed to defeat a guy who in his uncontrolled form was stated to be stronger than Hashi. Maybe BSM is THAT much stronger than 100% Kurama and Sasuke's EMS PS though featless individually might be stronger if Madara's PS. BZ stated that Naruto and Sasuke were so strong that they managed to meet RS...something that Hashi and EMS Madara did not manage.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 27, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Supercharged Bijuu Damas are easily dodged. Base Hashirama outran full Kurama's Bijuu Dama without any problem and could use techniques while it was still flying (Rashomon).



Hashirama only ran away here (1) and there was already quite a distance separating the two, who were pretty much lobbing nukes at each other at that point. He never dodged any regular _Bijuudamas_ and only tried to lead the thrashing Kyuubi to the sea. He blocked or diverted every normal _Bijuudama_ Madara sent, and Madara never fired a supercharged one (he probably wasn't aware of it). By supercharged, I mean ones like this or this (1, 2). 

That has the scale to encompass _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_, and when augmented by senjutsu, it should have the power to destroy it. On the other hand, _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ hasn't shown the strength to outright kill the Kyuubi bolstered by natural energy, when even Naruto's bijuu form without _Sennin Modo_ could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_. _Shinsuusenju_ really only managed to peel away Madara's _Susanoo_ at the expense of all its arms, and from there Hashirama was able to put the Kyuubi to sleep; not something he could accomplish with a perfect jinchuuriki.



> Edo Madara, who is inferior to his alive EMS vertion, outran Onoki's Jinton. Those Bijuu Dama's wont tag SM Hashirama.



This is irrelevant. Onoki's area-of-effect isn't great and it's nothing compared to mountain-range erasing attacks. I really only recall Edo Madara absorbing Onoki's jinton in the first place. He didn't have reason to dodge when he could just absorb it. I'm not disputing that he might've dodged a couple times (again, it's irrelevant), but how about posting the scans to the evidence you're referring to?



> Alive Madara, with 1 Rinnegan which does not give precognition, or speed amp, dodged Edo Tobirama's attack thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode, which amped every Madara's ability. Edo Tobirama is in EMS Sasuke's speed class, or even in BM Naruto's speed class because he had very impressive performance against Juubito (tagged Juubito with a FTG mark and tagged him several other times). And Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode is <<<< alive Hashirama's Sage Mode. SM Hashirama can dodge their attacks very well, because he is fast enough. Edo Madara is at least a V2 Raikage-level speedster and base Edo Hashirama reacted to him in CQC. When they are alive, they are even better than that. SM Hashirama is a speedster fast enough to dodge their attacks.



Naruto benefits from the same _Sennin_ precognition that Hashirama does. Tobirama's normal speed is probably marginally superior to Sasuke's, and with _Hirashin_, he's as fast as Naruto's top speed. I highly doubt that Madara's Rinnegan doesn't grant any perceptional abilities when it's just an evolved form of his Eternal Mangekyou, or that it would be inferior in any way. If Edo Madara were, "_at least a V2 Raikage-level speedster_," then it would mean he produces black flashes with his instantaneous _shunshin_ that are equivalent to _Hirashin no Jutsu_ — like he's never shown to do. 

Madara just has the perceptional abilities through doujutsu to react to A, in the same way MS Sasuke could react to faster characters like version one A or version Bee, or how Kakashi and Danzo could perceive and react to _Susanoo_ arrows. Madara and _Sennin_ Hashirama both should possess precognitive abilities to react to each other, but that doesn't make them as fast as _Hirashin_ users. Unless _Sennin_ Hashirama can instantly clear mountain ranges with _Hirashin_-level speed like he's never shown to do, then he isn't fast enough to just dodge their attacks. Rinnegan, _Sennin_ Madara with Hashirama's cells besting Tobirama isn't that surprising and isn't pertinent to the characters germane here.



> Rasengans wont do anything to Wood Golem, which can catch Madara's PS's blade with its bare hands, absorb the shockwave from it and catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama with 1 hand. Wood Golem is too durable.



Naruto and Minato's _Senpou: Chou Oodama Rasengan_ managed to pressure Juubi jinchuuriki Obito and later on it opened a hole through Obito's Rikudou Sennin shield when combined with Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_. (1, 2, 3). Naruto may not one-shot it, but _Mokujin_ isn't defeating his bijuu form physically (again, it has the durability to tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_). If that somehow fails, then the _Mokujin_ still can't block _Renzoku Bijuudama_ or the supercharged ones I linked above. You're also mistaken about the _Mokujin_ having bare-handed a perfect _Susanoo_ slash. Hashirama used _Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu_ to stop one crushing swing, and then Madara slashed off all its hands (1). Contrary to what you're saying, Madara added perfect _Susanoo_ blades to _Bijuudamas_ so that Hashirama *couldn't* block them with _Mokujin_ (1). 



> In fact, he smells polen - GG.



If Onoki can erase it, then I'm sure Naruto will somehow manage.



> SM Hashirama can kill EMS Sasuke with his attacks (because EMS Sasuke is a much weaker vertion of EMS Madara) and suppress BM Naruto after that in both scenarious. Wood Dragon and BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar is captured. If he tries to do the same thing he did against Edo Madara's Dragon, than Hashirama can catch Naruto himself in Dragon, just like he did that against Edo Madara.



I think EMS Sasuke is about as strong as EMS Madara (portrayal supports it, I believe) without the full Kyuubi. Naruto was able to get out and bust the _Mokuryuu's_ head (1). Hashirama isn't catching him with it when Naruto has a _Hirashin_-level _shunshin no jutsu_. The _Mokuryuu_ is secondary to the _Mokujin_ (which Hashirama needed to stop the Kyuubi's _Bijuudama_ and later to put it to sleep), and both are secondary to _Shinsuusenju_. _Mokuryuu_ was really only used to occupy the Kyuubi even when Hashirama used on Madara, and it failed to contain Naruto when Madara used it on him. Hashirama needed to bring out his _Mokujin_ when the Kyuubi started doing more than just clawing and biting at it, at which point Madara needed to respond by bringing out _Susanoo_ (1). Naruto isn't getting beaten by Hashirama's third-best technique, especially when I stated how Naruto beats his better two jutsu above. 



> It wont be easy but SM Hashirama most likely wins.



These incarnations of Naruto and Sasuke defeated Juubi jinchuuriki Obito, yet they're going to lose to Hashirama? And that doesn't sound ludicrous to you?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Hmmm, if Hashi captures Naruto with Wood Dragon he will absorb his chakra and force him to leave his avatar. Sasuke's PS should be roughly equal to Mokujin IF it is as strong as Madara's.



 Which is not the case. Madara's PS dwarfs Sasuke's until Post-Rikudou power up. 



> Normally Hashi would win...but portrayal says that BSM Naruto and PS Sasuke are quite above Madara's Kyuusano since they managed to defeat a guy who in his uncontrolled form was stated to be stronger than Hashi. Maybe BSM is THAT much stronger than 100% Kurama and Sasuke's EMS PS though featless individually might be stronger if Madara's PS. BZ stated that Naruto and Sasuke were so strong that they managed to meet RS...something that Hashi and EMS Madara did not manage.



 So their victory had nothing to do with the aid of other ninja creating an opening to attack Juubito? Seriously ,it was implied they needed to create an opening and failed to do so without outside help.

 There's also the fact that Juubito's vulnerability due to giving into his feelings caused him to lose.

Seriously, Naruto and Sasuke's Kyuubisano doesn't even compare to Madara's, one that can launch multiple Bijuudamas combined with Susano'o Swords in a single panel. How does Naruto and Sasuke's Kyuubisano even compare to that?

  @Empathy

 Huge misconception. No one can reach the speed of instant teleportation. Tobirama's speed with Hiraishin is far superior to BSM Naruto's Shunshin unless you're actually including throwing speed which * might * be the case.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> I don't think he could do it to a perfect jinchuuriki for the same reasons guys like Sasuke, Madara, and Obito couldn't subjugate Kurama with Naruto as a perfect jinchuuriki. _Mokuryuu_ is the only absorption technique I think Hashirama has (unless I'm forgetting something), and Naruto proved he could stop it when Edo Madara used it on him, albeit Naruto has to descend from his full bijuu form. _Senpou: Mokuryuu_ could be more troublesome, but it scales the same with _Sennin_ bijuu Naruto and begets the same result.



we already saw his moukoton absorb BM cloak. why cant he do that. then Budda naruto to death?? 



> Supercharged _Bijuudamas_ are probably too big for _Mokujin_ to catch and shove back at Naruto. Additionally, Naruto has his physical attacks and _Rasengans_ among other jutsu he can use to combat the wood human. _Renzoku Bijuudama_ is probably too much for _Mokujin_ to catch anyway. Bijuu Naruto without _Sennin Modo_ could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_, so _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ probably isn't stopping bijuu Naruto using _Sennin Modo_ in conjunction. While Naruto's taking a beating from it, a senjutsu-infused, supercharged _Bijuudama_ will probably destroy any mokuton construct Hashirama has (including _Shinsuusenju_) and beat Hashirama. There's also pretty clear portrayal that Naruto surpassed Hashirama leading up Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat.




budda was still standing after 9 BD enhanced by susanoo blade from 100% kyuubi. you mean to tell me naruto can fire somethign stronger than that before budda pounds naruto to the ground. all the while restraining him?? do show me this pretty clear potrayal or implication than naruto before Sop upgrade surpass hashirama. any statements from any witness???

budda has wood dragon and wood golem on its head. no bD shown by anything bar juubi jin is nearly big enough to even be a bother to budda. do you realise how big it is to have the wood golem sitting on its head????



> Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ combined with Naruto's bijuu form (without _Sennin Modo_) should edge out against _Sennin_ Hashirama. If Naruto combines his _Sennin Modo_ with Kurama, then he edges out against Hashirama, as I explained above. Hashirama can deal with Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ by himself, but I think EMS Sasuke could beat EMS Madara. He could override or at least disrupt his control over the Kyuubi, and I'd conjecture that Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ should be superior to Madara's based on author portrayal. Why would Naruto and Sasuke each need half of Rikudou Sennin's chakra to finally surpass Hashirama and Madara when they were already operating within their tier before then? That's like saying Naruto surpassed Jiraiya here instead of here. Naruto and Sasuke are hinted at having surpassed or approaching Hashirama and Madara respectively long before then (1) (2) (3) (4). Why wouldn't they have surpassed them with Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat? They really need to have defeated Obito, been killed by revived Madara, and then powered up by Rikudou Sennin himself just to have far and away surpassed their Hashirama/Madara benchmarks by the time they fight final villain Kaguya? That's ridiculous.



well thats what happened. EMS sasuke used PS for a total of a few panels. nothing indicates he had surprassed EMS madara who had much more expeirence using said jutsu. experience counts for something. 

hashirama had the ability to restrain first form juubi with his moukton gates. do you want to somehow imply BM naruto is stronger than the juubi. because thats clearly not what was shown

omg!! hahah 1 out of the 4 of the panels you provided only says maybe sasuke will surpass madara. maybe!!!...thats what orochimaru said. the others say, feels like what madara did. same potential as madara. jesus!!!! man why make shit up


----------



## Empathy (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> @Empathy
> 
> Huge misconception. No one can reach the speed of instant teleportation. Tobirama's speed with Hiraishin is far superior to BSM Naruto's Shunshin unless you're actually including throwing speed which * might * be the case.



[1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] []

But yeah, I guess if he's lucky then Naruto's yellow-flash-creating _shunshin_ might be as fast as someone can throw a kunai.



Icegaze said:


> we already saw his moukoton absorb BM cloak. why cant he do that. then Budda naruto to death??



Naruto and the Kyuubi both proved they can escape _Mokuryuu_, and it only succeeded in stalling them in both instances it was used. Naruto can just reform his cloak once he beats it in the same way he did with Madara. _Shinsuusenju_ isn't strong enough to kill Kurama amplified by natural energy. Without senjutsu, Naruto could tank the Juubi's _Bijuudama_ (which should be stronger than anything Hashirama can produce). _Shinsuusenju_ only succeeded in peeling off _Susanoo_ at the expense of its arms.



> budda was still standing after 9 BD enhanced by susanoo blade from 100% kyuubi. you mean to tell me naruto can fire somethign stronger than that before budda pounds naruto to the ground. all the while restraining him?? do show me this pretty clear potrayal or implication than naruto before Sop upgrade surpass hashirama. any statements from any witness???



It probably wasn't functional, given the fight continued to drag on after then instead of Hashirama just winning from there once the Kyuubi and _Susanoo_ were out of the picture. Each standard _Bijuudama_ is strong enough to obliterate one mountain. The supercharged ones that Naruto used and Madara didn't, would erase a moutain range and then some, making them comparable in scale. If the _Bijuudamas_ are augmented by _Sennin Modo_, then they possess enough power to destroy it, as Naruto and Hashirama's senjutsu probably cancel out. 



> do you realise how big it is to have the wood golem sitting on its head????



Yeah.



> well thats what happened. EMS sasuke used PS for a total of a few panels. nothing indicates he had surprassed EMS madara who had much more expeirence using said jutsu. experience counts for something.



Prove how much it counts for.



> hashirama had the ability to restrain first form juubi with his moukton gates. do you want to somehow imply BM naruto is stronger than the juubi. because thats clearly not what was shown



Relevance? I never stated that Naruto was stronger than the Juubi. However, fractions of his power enabled fodders to shred the Juubi (and for Kakashi to defeat it). That was before Naruto powered up even further by combining senjutsu with his bijuu form, mind you. Comparing his feats with Hashirama there—Naruto's are more impressive.



> omg!! hahah 1 out of the 4 of the panels you provided only says maybe sasuke will surpass madara. maybe!!!...thats what orochimaru said. the others say, feels like what madara did. same potential as madara. jesus!!!! man why make shit up



The number of whatever pertains to Sasuke doesn't somehow invalidate it, even if it were only one example relevant to Sasuke. That said, I counted at least four instances from the links I provided that mention Sasuke's potential relative to Madara; Hashirama and Sasuke both acknowledge his _Susanoo_ as equivalent to Madara's, and Tobirama and Orochimaru both think to themselves of Sasuke's potential to supersede Madara, preceding his next power-up. The Kyuubi talked about Sasuke's chakra being sinister like Madara's long before then, and they're both Indra transmigrants with straight-comma sharingans. 

You should learn to make a logical inference based on author portrayal. If Tobirama keeps talking about Naruto surpassing his brother, and then Sasuke powers up later on after that — then wouldn't it seem logical that Sasuke ascended to Naruto's (and thus Hashirama and Madara's) level; the level of his contemporary rival? Would you also try to argue that MS Sasuke and SM Naruto aren't on the same level? Why would Naruto approach Hashirama's caliber upon Juubi jinchuuriki Obito's defeat, but Sasuke doesn't supplant EMS Madara (one of his weakest incarnations) until after Rikudou Sennin's given him half his chakra and they're gearing up to face Kaguya?


----------



## Transcendent Shinobi (Feb 27, 2015)

BM Naruto is only half of Kurama. And Hashirama was holding his own and more against a 100% kurama and EMS Madara. And Sasuke never showed he even had PS until he got hax god powers.

Hashirama wins with medium difficulty at the most but most likely low difficulty.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

regardless of sasuke using PS. it wont matter budda would laugh it off. 

do note sasuke doesnt remotely have the fire power to be anymore than an annoyance to Sm hashirama. 

naruto SM enhanced BD takes time. why on earth cant hashirama just drop some gates on him to prevent such??? then break naruto appart with budda?

anyone forgetting things like flower tree world??

also note on panel hashirama said he can divert a juubito BD with just birth of trees. or he can redirect with mokujin. or tank with goju rashomon. BD is never going to be an issue for hashirama


----------



## Veracity (Feb 27, 2015)

What... The Buddah has 1000 arms, and each arm is capable of lifting the Kyuubi. A super BD would simply be pushed back into Naruto, which would deal a shit Ton more damage to naruto than Hashirama.  Rapid fire bd's would be Usless against something that can throw them back 1000x, and FRS's AoE is too small to really have effect as well as wood dragon possibly being able to aborb them considering preta path could. Sage Hashirama easily has the ability to change the trajectory of the super Bd Regardless. A weaker version of Hashirama was ready to off set the course of 2 juubidamas.

A weaker Edo Mokuton user like Madara was able to subdue Narutos BM cloak to the point where he needed to deactivate the cloak and use a super enchnaced Shunshin to escape. A far superior user like Alive Sage Hashi would completely negate Narutos cloak and would most likely restrict his movements with a well placed sage gate.  Then there's the fact that wood golem can put 100% Kurama to sleep with a single touch, so I'd assume Narutos cloak would disappear from a single touch from the wood golem. Once wood emergence comes out, Hashirama can create wood constructs from anywhere on the battlefield. So we have boss summon sized branches fighting off Naruto as well as laughing Buddah arms( strong enough to catch PS swords) and possibly entire wood golems coming from underneath. You then also have God gates coming from above so Naruto will be hard pressed from every direction basically.

I also don't think it was implied that BSM Naruto was > to Sage Hashirama at all..... Naruto and sasukes combined megazoid was clearly fit to parallel Perfect Sussano armored Kurama, and Hashirama beat those together..


----------



## Shinobi no Kami (Feb 27, 2015)

the most that the duo has is an iso susano that has worse feats than madaras.

the mokujin is as big as the juubi, so any of narutos standard bijudama get finger flicked away.


 the very notion that naruto would even have the time to charge up a super bijudama is laughable and even if he did, the mokujin catches it and slams the bijudama into iso susano.

the notion that the mokujin cannot catch narutos charged bijudama is laughable since the mokujin is as big as a super juubi bijudama which was as big as the juubi.




all of susanos sword strikes are caught with ease.

the mokujin simply chips away at iso susano with its punches and kurama gets put to sleep after its armor is stripped. after that base naruto and base sasuke are killed by anything that the mokujin does.

hashirama can just drop gates on them afterwards if he is merciful.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 27, 2015)

Lmao at Narutos BSM cloak not being completely pummeled by Shinsusenju.

BSM Naruto was outright being tossed around and effected by limbo clones: Link removed
Which actually caused enough damage to create an opening for Madara to get off a Justu....

The Shinsusenju can lift the Kyuubi like a reedy bear: Link removed

The Buddah does blunt force damage( like limbo) and A Gatling punch from something that powerful would reduce Narutos cloak and Naruto into nothingness.


----------



## Empathy (Feb 27, 2015)

Again, this combination could nearly defeat Juubi jinchuuriki Obito by itself (the alliance aided with tug-of-war). Why didn't Hashirama just defeat Obito himself with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ instead of conceding that he's weaker than Obito when he was still mindless as the Juubi's jinchuuriki? Surely his and Edo Madara's bout was secondary to the Juubi's jinchuuriki. You guys are acting silly.



Likes boss said:


> I also don't think it was implied that BSM Naruto was > to Sage Hashirama at all..... Naruto and sasukes combined megazoid was clearly fit to parallel Perfect Sussano armored Kurama, and Hashirama beat those together..



That would be true if it weren't Naruto amplifying Kurama with _Sennin Modo_. That makes it more comparable to _Sennin_ Hashirama, in my opinion. You're forgetting that Naruto combining senjutsu with his bijuu form was a separate power-up on its own, compared to just his bijuu form when he defeated the five bijuus. [_Link_]



Likes boss said:


> Lmao at Narutos BSM cloak not being completely pummeled by Shinsusenju.
> 
> BSM Naruto was outright being tossed around and effected by limbo clones: _Link_
> Which actually caused enough damage to create an opening for Madara to get off a Justu....
> ...



It wasn't BSM Naruto, but I don't think that makes a difference. _Rinne Tensei_ Madara had the Rinnegan, his EMS abilities, mokuton, _Sennin Modo_, and Hashirama's cells. Why on earth would you equate _Rinbo_ to just Hashirama's _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ only because they're both blunt force? _Rinbo_ got both Naruto and Sasuke killed, and they weren't able to counter it until after Hagoromo's power-up when they could see/sense it.


----------



## Rocky (Feb 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> BSM Naruto was outright being tossed around and effected by limbo clones: _Link_
> Which actually caused enough damage to create an opening for Madara to get off a Justu....



Biju Mode Naruto being caught completely off guard by an invisible Limbo Clone ≠ Biju Sage Naruto's maximum defensive capabilities while bracing for an attack. 

If one is not expecting it, an attack that would normally do nothing to someone can send them flying. We've seen this concept in interactions between B & A, Madara and SM Naruto, Kakuzu and Kakashi, etc.

When BM Naruto actually shielded himself, he blocked Bijudama from the Ten Tails without injury. Sage Mode increases durability, so I doubt a Naruto that is flowing senjutsu through his Kyubi cloak is getting obliterated by Chōjō Kebutsu.


----------



## Bonly (Feb 27, 2015)

Chances are Hashi would prolly come out on top. His Mokuton that can pop up from underneath them, wood dragon keeping Naruto on his toes and forcing him out his Kurama avatar, the gates(if used) to be a constant pain in the ass would prolly overwhelm them sooner or later when they got Shin Susenju towering over their ass ready to to punch them to death and turn them into stains


----------



## Veracity (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Again, this combination could nearly defeat Juubi jinchuuriki Obito by itself (the alliance aided with tug-of-war). Why didn't Hashirama just defeat Obito himself with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ instead of conceding that he's weaker than Obito when he was still mindless as the Juubi's jinchuuriki? Surely his and Edo Madara's bout was secondary the Juubi's jinchuuriki. You guys are acting silly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You realize that the only reason they beat Obito was because his abilities stem from his moral consciousness? As soon as Naruto and sasuke manifest Kyyubi- Susaano Obito started to doubt himself. His black shields went from tanking Senpou BjuiiDama to being effect by regular resengans.... There clearly was difference there.

And you ask why didn't Hashirama Justu solo Obito with Shinsusenju? Idk, and nobody ever will. He didn't even bring them damn thing out against Madara.

Why didn't Obito just trap Naruto and Sasuke in a barrier and vaporize them with quad bjuiidama ? Instead he decided to zip around them avoiding their attacks until he decided to body slam their megazoids into nothingness and then converse with them casually. He easily had the tools to destroy them but didn't use them.... Then there's the fact that Naruto + Sasuke + alliance + Konoha 11 were used to defeat Juubito not just Naruto....

& Hashirama( in a weaker body) admitted he was weaker than mindless Obito before he found out about the Senjustu weakness. At that point it would have seemed as if Obito was massively superior to BSM Naruto also. He broke through God gates( which held down the Juubi) with ease then proceeded to casually pull apart a barrier that withstood a Juubidama .


----------



## Raiken (Feb 27, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> It's well established Sasuke can use Perfect Susano'o due to manifesting some traits that Madara's Perfect Susano'o does have. We do witness Sasuke manifesting V4 before his Susano'o does surround BSM Naruto's Kurama Avatar. Afterwards, we can clearly see that it is Perfect Susano'o considering it resembled Madara's PS after his Susano'o covered Kurama as well as the facial characteristics that vastly differ from Sasuke's V4 Susano'o as his Susano'o's mouth doesn't retain a beak-like structure and the eyes actually have large White pupils while his V4 Susano'o lacks the trait.


I'm not saying that wasn't Perfect Susano'o, EMS Sasuke does have Perfect Susano'o. What I'm saying is it is featless.
We can either just not consider it, or speculate on how powerful it is by downscaling Madara's Perfect Susano'o; up to you. :/ But any speculation has to be taken with a grain of salt.
Also, you're wrong, both V4 and V5 Susano'o show the eyes of the V3 Susano'o underneath; that's how it works.


> Madara's Susano'o at the End of Chapter 588 was PS, hence why it's even stated on the page that Madara did indeed summon PS. All that was stated was that Madara need to Stabilize the chakra to bring it out at it's maximum, however, if it was a V4 Susano'o, he'd have to muster up more chakra in order to enhance his Susano'o instead of just stabilizing it.
> 
> Both instances were where PS was displayed. Sasuke's PS is just Unstabilized.


No what Sasuke used is compatible to what Madara used in 589, it was Stabilized.
What Madara first used in 588 was a very large Complete Body V4 Susano'o.
You know the definition of "Perfect" right? The very next chapter he says "..not yet", and it was like "Now it's Perfect".

Susano'o works like this:

Lets get the fundamentals straight. There's a Body and Armour Layer.
They are the two primary aspects when progressing through the Susano'o forms.
Throughout these forms, depending on the user, the Susano'o can equip a couple of different Chakra weapons.

The body starts off as just a Ribcage. *V1 Susano'o*
It can however if the user knows how, manifest just the skeletal arms and use the Susano'o weapons.

It can then be completed into an upper body form, with the addition of the rest of the skeleton, body, head and arms, the body can also be further completed by gaining muscle throughout the structure. *V2 Susano'o*

The structure can then be further completed by gaining skin and finally clothes.
It is then considered a Complete Susano'o. *V3 Susano'o*

That "layer" of Susano'o cannot be completed any further.
However the addition of an armour layer can be applied over the top of the Complete Susano'o, acting like a shroud. The Final Susano'o.*V4 Susano'o*

Now the Susano'o weapons don't change throughout V1-V4, they stay the same and are interchangeable.

Throughout the V1-V4 stages, the user create a lower half to fully complete the body and enable manoeuvrability. Although I imagine the manoeuvrability of a Complete Body V4 Susano'o would be limited due to its mass. This is where the next level comes in.....

If a user is powerful enough, they can take that armour layer that resides over the top of the Complete Body, and rather than having it loosely sit over it as a mass of Chakra, they can stabilize and compress the armour down to fully fit a Complete Body. The Perfect Susano'o. *V5 Susano'o.*

In V5, through the stabilizing and compression of Susano'o Chakra, the weapons become enhanced.

Size of any Susano'o level is determined solely by the users Chakra input.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Again, this combination could nearly defeat Juubi jinchuuriki Obito by itself (the alliance aided with tug-of-war). Why didn't Hashirama just defeat Obito himself with _Senpou: Shinsuusenju_ instead of conceding that he's weaker than Obito when he was still mindless as the Juubi's jinchuuriki? Surely his and Edo Madara's bout was secondary the Juubi's jinchuuriki. You guys are acting silly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Naruto and Hashirama are comparable by hype. But for you to say that Naruto is superior by virtue of him and a squad of other Shinobi defeating Juubito is straight false. That's literally akin to you saying Sasuke is > to EMS Madara because of such.

The reason they are also comparable is because Naruto and Sasukes megazoid was outright paralleled with the Madara and Kurama combination. Like Sasuke outright states a comparison between the two: _Link_

In which Hashirama defeated Madara and the Kyuubi together which is the parallel of Sasuke and Naruto together ... I'm not saying that Hashirama wins against them both, but he definitely has equal or greater to Naruto.

Oh yeah that's right, it was BM Naruto and not BSM my bad. But that doesn't really make a difference here though. I'm not actually equating limbo to the Buddah in the way that you think. Madara was clearly superior at that time, I'm comparing the damage in the attacks. A single limbo hit was able to do that to BM Naruto, and then damage between a limbo hit and the Buddah statue is tremendous. The Buddah can lift the Kyuubi with one arm, the 1000 other arms together would obliterate Naruto.


@rocky

Being caught off gaurd doesn't change the fact that he was physically effect by something TREMENDOUSLY WEAKER than the Buddah statue. Blocking or being aware of the attack only braces them damage a bit, a lot less then you are assuming here.

I actually want you to list all those feats you just named so I can refute them all. I bet all of them would have done damage if blocked or not. I know for a fact that ay was throwing bee around even when he was aware, and the damage attributed would have been close to the same if bee was aware or not.

The Naruto example is just not good at all and we've been over this. A perfect sage looking someone dead in the eyes doesn't equal being caught of guard and you know this... Especially when he canonically reacts to blindsided attacks..


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] []
> 
> But yeah, I guess if he's lucky then Naruto's yellow-flash-creating _shunshin_ might be as fast as someone can throw a kunai.
> 
> ...



and hashirama can just use another wood dragon and keep playing stall. then using the gates to keep naruto avatar in place. if naruto deactivates it he will be eating the full brunt of budda 

and you need to use ur brain. no where did kishi say naruto surprassed hashirama or sasuke surpassed madara. at best both were compared and considered equal. that was the compliment to them that they can be classed as legends. not the other way round 

do feel free to show a single panel of anyone saying sasuke has surpassed madara. go on ill wait. all oro said was maybe he will surpass madara. and that coming from oro has no value. he never witness madara power

you are also the only poster arguing hashirama looses. i wonder why that is  

juubito had time to summon the god tree and it to absorb naruto cloak before naruto could fire a super charged BD. that gives hashirama more than ample time to ensure that never happens. gates+flower tree world+wood dragon+wood golem+budda. hashirama is capable of using such jutsu back to back. naruto dies laughably


----------



## Rocky (Feb 27, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Being caught off gaurd doesn't change the fact that he was physically effect by something TREMENDOUSLY WEAKER than the Buddah statue. Blocking or being aware of the attack only braces them damage a bit, a lot less then you are assuming here.



Madara didn't do any real damage to Naruto though. The Limbo clone's punch is TREMENDOUSLY WEAKER than a Bijudama from the Jubi as well. 



> I actually want you to list all those feats you just named so I can refute them all. I bet all of them would have done damage if blocked or not. I know for a fact that ay was throwing bee around even when he was aware, and the damage attributed would have been close to the same if bee was aware or not.



Kakuzu's fake death surprise kick wouldn't have sent Kakashi flying through a tree. A also wasn't tossing around B, he was laying on the ground after having lost a direct battle of strength.



> The Naruto example is just not good at all and we've been over this. A perfect sage looking someone dead in the eyes doesn't equal being caught of guard and you know this... Especially when he canonically reacts to blindsided attacks..



Naruto wasn't expecting Madara to be as fast and powerful as he was, and that has nothing to do with whether or not Naruto was looking at him or not.

Sages can be caught off guard by blindside attacks though. See Jiraiya.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 27, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Naruto would probably solo if he's allowed to combine _Sennin Modo_ with his bijuu form (I don't see it in the restrictions). Even without it, both he and EMS Sasuke's perfect _Susanoo_ would be too much for Hashirama, most likely.


Its only BM naruto, no forms above are allowed, 
and even if its BSM naruto, he doesnt stand a chance against SS,  

his TBB are grabbed by its hands and are slammed back at his face, and a chojo kobetsu pounds him to dirt 
myojinmon immobilisin him for a brief amount of time, also allows him to land a chojo kobetsu to rape him

as for Naruto and Sasukes PS-Kyuubi, please explain how it'll take out SS, 




Likes boss said:


> Lmao at Narutos BSM cloak not being completely pummeled by Shinsusenju.
> 
> BSM Naruto was outright being tossed around and effected by limbo clones: Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.
> Which actually caused enough damage to create an opening for Madara to get off a Justu....
> ...



Yep, i dont see why people severely underestimate chojo kobetsu for? 
it created *the entire VotE, which is this large*, *the entire VotE, which is this large*
and the blast wave formed dwarved SS, which dwarves mountains themselves 

and that was an SS that was hindered by over 10 PS-infused TBB, a full frontal SS would pound him to dirt, be it BM or BSM 



Rocky said:


> When BM Naruto actually shielded himself, he blocked Bijudama from the Ten Tails without injury. Sage Mode increases durability, so I doubt a Naruto that is flowing senjutsu through his Kyubi cloak is getting obliterated by Chōjō Kebutsu.


Naruto lost over 6 of his tails after blocking the juubi beam, 
juubi beam went through 9 TBB, whilst Chojo went through 12 and busted a structure of same (if not even higher)  
based on the crater and the valley that was formed from chojo kobetsu, its alsoo most likely suprerior to drop slam which eradicated the BSM avatar, 

narutos kurmaa avatar has shown no more than 5 rapid TBB, and that wont be cutting it against chojo kobetsu, 
any larrgeer TBB, and sasukes PS blade wont be big enough to coat them to turn them into a shape where SS wont just slam it back at him, 

PS gets raped, then naruto gets rraped by thennext chojo,


----------



## Ersa (Feb 27, 2015)

I think by simple virtue of power levels Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto is more or less on par with Hashirama and by adding another top tier to his team tips the scales in his favour. It's not just that BSM Naruto is superior to 100% Kurama but techniques like _Kage Bunshin_ which really tip the scales into the duo's favour. Buddha is going to struggle with dealing with a PS-clad Naruto and then deal with a clone on the side pelting him with a _Senpo Chou Bijuudama_.

The pair is most definitely superior to EMS Madara and 100% Kurama. Sasuke may be weaker then Madara but techniques like _Kage Bunshin _and _Enton _are quite useful here.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Madara didn't do any real damage to Naruto though. The Limbo clone's punch is TREMENDOUSLY WEAKER than a Bijudama from the Jubi as well.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Madara did enough damage to knock Naruto back and for it to physically effect Naruto based on his facial expression: takes a bunch of the continent with it.

That's more than enough to merit to assume it did more damage the the JUUBI laser( laser is < to bjuiidama btw) based on the fact that Naruto didn't even flinch at the laser.

Do you want me to explain why a Buddah barrage should be atleast 5000x more damaging then a single hit from sage Madara ? 

Why wouldn't a dead on Kick from Kakuzu not send Kakashi flying ? He's physically superior to Kakashi and Kakashi isn't strong nor heavy .

He was tossing him around even when he was aware at times: takes a bunch of the continent with it.
takes a bunch of the continent with it.

Even outright taking his Lariats:takes a bunch of the continent with it.
takes a bunch of the continent with it.

& bee winning the lariat contest had all to do with the fact that Ay was underestimating him. I mean that kinda was the point the entire time unless you actually think that V1 Ay< Base bee and that goes completely against actual feats. In case you forgot, Ay thinks it takes a V1 bee to match his lariat evident by the fact that he matched his lariat with V1 Ay against Kisame. He has been underestimating bee the entire time and actually making his lariat weaker, he even outright says this: takes a bunch of the continent with it.
It also directly goes against feats that Ay has that proves he's superior to base bee.

I'm sorry,  I didn't think Jirayia and Naruto were the same person considering Naruto canonically reacts to attacks like this: takes a bunch of the continent with it.

Imma do the logical thing and compare Naruto to Naruto and not compare him to an imperfect sage in an entirely different situation. Jirayia and the toads legit thought the pain bodies were dead while Naruto was staring right at Madara from more than 30 feet away.

Naruto was able to perform a complete block, Naruto got overwhelmed... Not caught off guard.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I think by simple virtue of power levels Bijuu Sage Mode Naruto is more or less on par with Hashirama and by adding another top tier to his team tips the scales in his favour. It's not just that BSM Naruto is superior to 100% Kurama but techniques like _Kage Bunshin_ which really tip the scales into the duo's favour. Buddha is going to struggle with dealing with a PS-clad Naruto and then deal with a clone on the side pelting him with a _Senpo Chou Bijuudama_.
> 
> The pair is most definitely superior to EMS Madara and 100% Kurama. Sasuke may be weaker then Madara but techniques like _Kage Bunshin _and _Enton _are quite useful here.



fair point but we are forgetting enton is trolled by moukton. and naruto KB would face hashirama mokuton bunshin. do note moukjin could face a PS susanoo. 

if hashirama uses wood golem and budda at the same time which he can he beats these 2


----------



## Deer Lord (Feb 28, 2015)

Tobirama explicitly said he tagged him AFTER Juubito eviscerated him.

This is what happens to nardo & sauce.


----------



## Ersa (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> fair point but we are forgetting enton is trolled by moukton. and naruto KB would face hashirama mokuton bunshin. do note moukjin could face a PS susanoo.
> 
> if hashirama uses wood golem and budda at the same time which he can he beats these 2


Hashirama's Mokuton Bunshin have lackluster feats at best. Madara trolled them while sitting down. Granted this was when he was using the barrier but they were powered by Sennin Mode still. His clones have not shown the ability to deal with Naruto's clone Chou Bijuudama.

Not really, Buddha is about equal to 100% Kurama and EMS Madara give or take (marginally stronger). BSM Naruto is faster and can utilize stronger Bijuudama variants as well as Kage Bunshin compared to 100% Kurama and Sasuke is more or less EMS Madara. While Hashirama is fending off Senpo: Bijuudama Renzaku with Enton spam he'll have to take note of a clone off on the side preparing this shit.

You have to remember BSM Naruto is *significantly *stronger then 100% Kurama. Not in terms of firepower but Sennin Mode and Kage Bunshin are invaluable here.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Hashirama's Mokuton Bunshin have lackluster feats at best. Madara trolled them while sitting down. Granted this was when he was using the barrier but they were powered by Sennin Mode still. His clones have not shown the ability to deal with Naruto's clone Chou Bijuudama.
> 
> Not really, Buddha is about equal to 100% Kurama and EMS Madara give or take (marginally stronger). BSM Naruto is faster and can utilize stronger Bijuudama variants as well as Kage Bunshin compared to 100% Kurama and Sasuke is more or less EMS Madara. While Hashirama is fending off Senpo: Bijuudama Renzaku with Enton spam he'll have to take note of a clone off on the side preparing this shit.
> 
> You have to remember BSM Naruto is *significantly *stronger then 100% Kurama. Not in terms of firepower but Sennin Mode and Kage Bunshin are invaluable here.



sorry to spoil your fanfic they were base MB's. 
his clones dont need to deal with it. the real hashirama can simply use gates to stop naruto from firing such. also naruto clone hasnt shown the ability to use chou bijuudama 

loooool hahahaha...marginally. it not only survived 9BD enhanced by susanoo blades, it ripped susanoo completely off kyuubi. then kyuubi was picked up like a rat and put to sleep. 

its BM naruto in this match up. BSM wont make a difference though. BM couldnt even blitz madara as an ET. looool and they would have time to set all this up. when hashirama can use gates off the bat or wood dragon or flower tree world to prevent any coordinated attacks from these 2 

yes and hashirama has KB and even implied he could divert juubito BD with just birth of trees. naruto and sasuke stand no chance here


----------



## Ersa (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry to spoil your fanfic they were base MB's.
> his clones dont need to deal with it. the real hashirama can simply use gates to stop naruto from firing such. also naruto clone hasnt shown the ability to use chou bijuudama
> 
> loooool hahahaha...marginally. it not only survived 9BD enhanced by susanoo blades, it ripped susanoo completely off kyuubi. then kyuubi was picked up like a rat and put to sleep.
> ...


He created the clones in Sennin Mode, if you look at the DB entry for SM it states that it boosts all jutsu. And no he can't stop a clone from doing it if he's occupied with PS-BSM Naruto. Not before the PS Susanoo tore Buddha to pieces and it won't do the same to a faster PS-BSM Naruto.

Sage Mode lets him augment his techniques and not blitzing Madara isn't really a valid argument as Madara has top tier reactions.


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> He created the clones in Sennin Mode, if you look at the DB entry for SM it states that it boosts all jutsu. And no he can't stop a clone from doing it if he's occupied with PS-BSM Naruto. Not before the PS Susanoo tore Buddha to pieces and it won't do the same to a faster PS-BSM Naruto.
> 
> Sage Mode lets him augment his techniques and not blitzing Madara isn't really a valid argument as Madara has top tier reactions.



provide panels then. because everyone knows his clones were in base. 

his clones can use gates to restrain naruto clones movements therefore no BD. 

so what are you implying that BSM naruto can blitz past hashirama. do provide some panel evidence. BM naruto couldnt even outspeed madara as an ET 

yes and hashirama has top tier reactions. since hashirama could follow madara susanoo speed and keep it moving. 

or are you implying madara has better reactions than hashirama?? if so feel free to prove it. madara was always behind hashirama. 

anywayz the vast majority of posters agree hashirama win


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

All clones are fodder against someone of the same level or a level above .

Naruto was sasukes superior when they fought way back on the roof top in part one yet Sasuke does this to his clones: Link removed


----------



## ShadoLord (Feb 28, 2015)

Hashirama beats Naruto&Sasuke with reasons already said; The sealing gates and Wood Dragon for Naruto and the 1000 arm destroying Sasuke to a pulp.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 28, 2015)

I think Hashirama'd win, Naruto and Sasuke weren't at their predecessor's level yet IMO. 

Words can't give proper scope to the immense size difference between Shinsuusenju and what constructs Naruto and Sauce were capable of producing @ that point.  

Shinsuusenju took dozens of 100% Kyuubi's BDs, which are each much larger than the standard BD. It may as well be a super-dama barrage because each dama is bigger. Then _after_ sustaining that onslaught, it basically reached through the smoke, picked up 100% Kyuubi and oneshotted it in a panel.

The juubi laser feat needs to be elaborated on.

Shinsuusenju > Kyusan'o > PS > Obito's slam > Sasuke's Susano'o=Naruto's Avatar > Juubi lazer 
Sasuke's Susano'o, defensively speaking, was proven to be = Naruto's Avatar when Obito destroyed them both with the same amount of power. And Madara's Susanoo is still >> any Susano'o EMS Sasuke had until rikuduo powerup both featwise _and_ size wise.

Naruto's bijuu damas aren't even in the same zipcode as shinsuusenju size wise. They can't even be caught there too small. Naruto's bigger BD's get caught and redirected by SS's arms that picked up 100% Kyuubi or at worst slapped away by 2-3 100% kyuubi sized hands. Hashirama IC uses hands to redirect BDs and stop attacks, Madara had to prep them all with swords just so Hashirama wouldn't grab them out the air.

Even if they hit, _Hashi's tanked more BDs than anyone_, let alone BDs so small compared to SS.

Honestly, Hashi is the titan and Naruto is the guy shooting those small BDs/ cannonballs at him
Link removed


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> All clones are fodder against someone of the same level or a level above .
> 
> Naruto was sasukes superior when they fought way back on the roof top in part one yet Sasuke does this to his clones: (1)



 That had to do more with Naruto using dozens of clones as opposed to Hashirama being able to effectively use a few clones which he should in this match given his high chakra reserves.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

What people are conveniently ignoring or downplaying is the lethality of narutos frs when used in bm ..

(2)
 just one bm rasenshuriken cut the juubis tails like butter these survived multiple bijudama and amped upped attacks...why arent multiple chou oodama rasenshuriken from bm clones not cpable of doing the same to wood budha? especially when also bombarded with sword damas of massive size....

naruto also can prep frogsong while keeping distance and protected by kyuubisussano...he can give chakra cloaks to ma and pa to speed up frogsong once its used gg..


----------



## UchihaX28 (Feb 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> What people are conveniently ignoring or downplaying is the lethality of narutos frs when used in bm ..
> 
> Impossible! The FTG I used before and these Branches have sucked up all of my chakra
> just one bm rasenshuriken cut the juubis tails like butter these survived multiple bijudama and amped upped attacks...why arent multiple chou oodama rasenshuriken from bm clones not cpable of doing the same to wood budha? especially when also bombarded with sword damas of massive size....
> ...



 Because Hotei and Wood Dragon will instantly be used and weaken the BM Naruto clones easily.

 BM Naruto clones also can't use Kurama Avatar which makes him a sitting duckling. 

 Buddha survived an onslaught of Bijuudamas * with Susanoo Swords * in a single panel. Chou FRS doesn't have the output of a Bijuudama and you're also forgetting the fact that BM Minato alone needed time to prepare his Chou Oodama Rasengan. Chou Oodama RasenShuriken will require more time and leave him vulnerable to Wood Dragon which will make all the chakra used in preparing the jutsu useless as it will be absorbed and we've seen how BM Naruto struggled against Madara's inferior Wood Dragon.

 And Kyuubisano'o won't survive against an onslaught of Wood Golem, Wood Dragons, and Hotei, especially when a Giant Gate will be summoned to restrict their Kyuubisanoo's movements.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Because Hotei and Wood Dragon will instantly be used and weaken the BM Naruto clones easily.
> 
> BM Naruto clones also can't use Kurama Avatar which makes him a sitting duckling.
> 
> ...



A bm clone managed to form a bijudama through kuramas head against rinnegan obito..

and how is the wood dragon supposed to catch the bm clone when it is far faster...and a simple shunshin from bm naruto destroyed wood dragon hotei is not tagging bm narutos clones stop downplaying narutos speed..base hashirama was able to dance around kyuubi sussano and bm naruto is far faster not to mention the clones can be housed in the tails of kyuubi sussano like the rookies...kcm naruto managed to form a chou oodama rasenshuriken instantly why would bm clones take charging time?

Let this sink in a normal rasenshuriken used by bm naruto cut two of juubis tails like butter those tails have massive durability and tanked bijuudama like nothing..juubi is as big as shinsensenju and far more durable..multiple bm chou oodama rasenshurikens backed by giant sword damas from kyuubisussano will shred the buudha and worst comes to worst naruto can summon ma and pa give them chakra cloaks that helps speed up frogsong while housed in kyuubi sussano frog song is gg..


----------



## Icegaze (Feb 28, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> A bm clone managed to form a bijudama through kuramas head against rinnegan obito..
> 
> and how is the wood dragon supposed to catch the bm clone when it is far faster...and a simple shunshin from bm naruto destroyed wood dragon hotei is not tagging bm narutos clones stop downplaying narutos speed..base hashirama was able to dance around kyuubi sussano and bm naruto is far faster not to mention the clones can be housed in the tails of kyuubi sussano like the rookies...kcm naruto managed to form a chou oodama rasenshuriken instantly why would bm clones take charging time?
> 
> Let this sink in a normal rasenshuriken used by bm naruto cut two of juubis tails like butter those tails have massive durability and tanked bijuudama like nothing..juubi is as big as shinsensenju and far more durable..multiple bm chou oodama rasenshurikens backed by giant sword damas from kyuubisussano will shred the buudha and worst comes to worst naruto can summon ma and pa give them chakra cloaks that helps speed up frogsong while housed in kyuubi sussano frog song is gg..



naruto speed would not even slightly be an issue or it would have been against edo madara which if you didnt notice it wasnt even remotely an issue. 

naruto and sasuke eat dust. 

flower tree world.  put them to sleep.


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> naruto speed would not even slightly be an issue or it would have been against edo madara which if you didnt notice it wasnt even remotely an issue.
> 
> naruto and sasuke eat dust.
> 
> flower tree world.  put them to sleep.



 not even slightly an issue hmm...
(1)

not even sage madara could react even when he had sage precog..
Ummm naruto rushed wood dragon with bm how is that supposed to show us anything..im not saying he is going to blitz sm hashi from distance  but he is certainly capable of evading wood dragon..

flower tree world wtff.... oonoki cleared it with a jinton you think thats goint to put the duo down....ice comeon man..


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

Couldn't FRS be absorbed by wood dragon considering its inferior to a BjuiiDama, and Preta canonically aboorbed a FRS?


----------



## sabre320 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Couldn't FRS be absorbed by wood dragon considering its inferior to a BjuiiDama, and Preta canonically aboorbed a FRS?



wood dragon dosent work like preta it dosent aborb ninjutsu ...


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Couldn't FRS be absorbed by wood dragon considering its inferior to a BjuiiDama, and Preta canonically aboorbed a FRS?


Preta is a superior Chakra Absorption method than the Mokuton Ryu. Mokuton Ryu absorbs chakra by latching onto the target and biting into it, effectively being a chakra vampire. If the head's destroyed, it can't absorb chakra.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Preta is a superior Chakra Absorption method than the Mokuton Ryu. Mokuton Ryu absorbs chakra by latching onto the target and biting into it, effectively being a chakra vampire. If the head's destroyed, it can't absorb chakra.



Umm no? Preta isn't superior to anything lmao, it was canonically negated by wood dragon that also restricted Madara's movements.

So in reality it works just like Preta path as it latches on to Kurama and feeds off of its chakra and was actually said to have defeated Kurama on its lonesome before .

The wood dragon wasnt even biting onto Madara and it absorbed its chakra, restricted his movements and negated Preta path: froze in fear and became fully obedient

It was also quickly draining a Bjuii cloak, so I have no idea why you think it wouldn't be able to absorb an FRS when Preta could easily.

@saber
Wood dragon absorbs chakra and Ninjustu is created using chakra....


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> Umm no? Preta isn't superior to anything lmao, it was canonically negated by wood dragon that also restricted Madara's movements.
> 
> So in reality it works just like Preta path as it latches on to Kurama and feeds off of its chakra and was actually said to have defeated Kurama on its lonesome before .
> 
> ...


I think it was negating the other Chakra Absorption Technique that Madara used (the one he used without his eyes). The Blocking Absorption Seal that Preta Path creates would have absorbed the Mokuton Ryu due to how it works. 

Mokuton Ryu has absorbed zero ninjutsu. Thus it can't. It just restricts movements and absorbs chakra from tailed beasts like a vampire does.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I think it was negating the other Chakra Absorption Technique that Madara used (the one he used without his eyes). The Blocking Absorption Seal that Preta Path creates would have absorbed the Mokuton Ryu due to how it works.
> 
> Mokuton Ryu has absorbed zero ninjutsu. Thus it can't. It just restricts movements and absorbs chakra from tailed beasts like a vampire does.



That Justu pretty much stems from Preta path. It's essentially the same thing ....

And FRS has never been shown to destroy wood dragon , therefore it cannot. That's the logic you just used. Wood dragon absorbs chakra when it comes into contact with a Justu that uses chakra. Ninjustu uses chakra , therefore it's absorbed.

The only problem is a Justu that has too much chakra to absorb and thus overwhelms the dragon. Like Preta path absorbing a spirit bomb... Just not happening. & considering bjuidama> is to FRS, I would assume wood dragon could absorb it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That Justu pretty much stems from Preta path. It's essentially the same thing ....
> 
> And FRS has never been shown to destroy wood dragon , therefore it cannot. That's the logic you just used. Wood dragon absorbs chakra when it comes into contact with a Justu that uses chakra. Ninjustu uses chakra , therefore it's absorbed.
> 
> The only problem is a Justu that has too much chakra to absorb and thus overwhelms the dragon. Like Preta path absorbing a spirit bomb... Just not happening. & considering bjuidama> is to FRS, I would assume wood dragon could absorb it.


A Bijudama made the Mokuton Ryu useless. Completely obliterate it like it was nothing. Nothing was absorbed. Preta Path can absorb ninjutsu since it doesn't just absorb the chakra, it seals the technique. Hence why its called the Blocking Absorption Seal. 

Eyeless Madara didn't use Preta, he used a chakra absorption technique he had in life. 

Futon: Rasenshuriken would cut Mokuton Ryu in half as easily as Bijudama, even moreso due to being a wind element tech.


----------



## ARGUS (Feb 28, 2015)

dont see why people are talling about mookuryu here,
it gets  fodderred by a single PS slash or a single TBB, 

the only relevant thing is SS  here, everything else is trash


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> dont see why people are talling about mookuryu here,
> it gets  fodderred by a single PS slash or a single TBB,
> 
> the only relevant thing is SS  here, everything else is trash


And SS could arguably be handled by BSM Naruto alone. Senpo: Cho Bijudama or Senpo: Cho Odama Rasenshuriken (or both together) would neutralize it especially since Naruto can tank what SS can toss out.


----------



## Veracity (Feb 28, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> A Bijudama made the Mokuton Ryu useless. Completely obliterate it like it was nothing. Nothing was absorbed. Preta Path can absorb ninjutsu since it doesn't just absorb the chakra, it seals the technique. Hence why its called the Blocking Absorption Seal.
> 
> Eyeless Madara didn't use Preta, he used a chakra absorption technique he had in life.
> 
> Futon: Rasenshuriken would cut Mokuton Ryu in half as easily as Bijudama, even moreso due to being a wind element tech.



A Bjuiidama rendered the wood dragon useless because it was too much chakra to absorb and ended up detonating. That's not what's going to happen here at all.

It being called the absorption barrier seal can equate to the fact that absorbs all the chakra in the technique rendering it useless as if it was sealed . Unless you actually bring up the bd entry then your guess is the same as mine.

Except Hashirama stopped Madara with eyes and the Rinnegan  meaning he was using Preta as thats the only thing that he had shown at that point.

Nope. Wood dragon = Preta path. Rasneshiruken gets stopped just as easily as Madara and Pain canonically stopped it.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Feb 28, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> A Bjuiidama rendered the wood dragon useless because it was too much chakra to absorb and ended up detonating. That's not what's going to happen here at all.


It didn't 'detonate'. It just plowed right through the Wood Dragon without it able to do a thing. The same thing would happen to a Rasenshuriken. The Bijudama even detonated later, there was no chakra absorption and its out and out proof that it can't absorb ninjutsu. It went up against one and failed.


> It being called the absorption barrier seal can equate to the fact that absorbs all the chakra in the technique rendering it useless as if it was sealed . Unless you actually bring up the bd entry then your guess is the same as mine.





> Blocking Technique Absorption Seal* (封術吸印, Fuujutsu Kyuuin)
> Ninjutsu, Fuuinjutsu, No rank, Defensive, Short range (0-5m)
> User: Pain
> 
> ...


That's how Preta works. It just looks Madara never used it against Hashirama since he was playing him the entire battle.


> Except Hashirama stopped Madara with eyes and the Rinnegan  meaning he was using Preta as thats the only thing that he had shown at that point.


Madara doesn't seem like he used ANY Rinnegan jutsu against Hashriama and fooled him to think he only had the EMS abilities. Hell Hashirama couldn't even grasp the danger of being stabbed ONCE from the chakra rods since Madara kept them inactive.


> Nope. Wood dragon = Preta path. Rasneshiruken gets stopped just as easily as Madara and Pain canonically stopped it.


Wood Dragon, goes up against Ninjutsu and was plowed through like nothing. Wood Dragon does not absorb Ninjutsu, has no feats of it, and when it was put up AGAINST one it got obliterated without anything slowing said ninjutsu down.

Likes boss, you're wrong so stop trying to make excuses for Hashirama's techs.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I think it was negating the other Chakra Absorption Technique that Madara used (the one he used without his eyes). The Blocking Absorption Seal that Preta Path creates would have absorbed the Mokuton Ryu due to how it works.
> 
> Mokuton Ryu has absorbed zero ninjutsu. Thus it can't. It just restricts movements and absorbs chakra from tailed beasts like a vampire does.



 Actually, Hashirama outright stated it would counter his chakra absorption by saying he'd be unable to use the ninjutsu that allows him to absorb chakra which he was referring to Preta Path.

 Afterwards, once Madara is revived, Hashirama is surprised he could passively absorb ninjutsu, making it clear Hashirama was referring to Preta Path in the above statement.

 Wood Dragon does absorb chakra and it canonically did counter Preta Path which was outright stated by Hashirama and never contradicted.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Actually, Hashirama outright stated it would counter his chakra absorption by saying he'd be unable to use the ninjutsu that allows him to absorb chakra which he was referring to Preta Path.
> 
> Afterwards, once Madara is revived, Hashirama is surprised he could passively absorb ninjutsu, making it clear Hashirama was referring to Preta Path in the above statement.
> 
> Wood Dragon does absorb chakra and it canonically did counter Preta Path which was outright stated by Hashirama and never contradicted.


If Madara was using Preta, why didn't he form the Blocking Seal Absorption barrier around him to consume the Mokuton Ryu, NarutoX28? Madara could passively absorb chakra without Preta Path.

I think it was made quite clear Hashirama didn't face one Rinnegan technique when fighting Madara due to Madara playing him.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> If Madara was using Preta, why didn't he form the Blocking Seal Absorption barrier around him to consume the Mokuton Ryu, NarutoX28? Madara could passively absorb chakra without Preta Path.
> 
> I think it was made quite clear Hashirama didn't face one Rinnegan technique when fighting Madara due to Madara playing him.



 Because there'd be no point. Kishi implied that Hashirama's Wood Dragon countered his Preta Path, so likely it was used, but Wood Dragon countered the technique, causing the barrier to disappear. 

 I get your argument. It's possible that Madara may have used Preta Path earlier or most likely against Wood Dragon. Going off of Hashirama's claim, Kishi was referring to Preta Path as that's the only ninjutsu Madara has that absorbs ninjutsu.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> That Justu pretty much stems from Preta path. It's essentially the same thing ....
> 
> And FRS has never been shown to destroy wood dragon , therefore it cannot. That's the logic you just used. Wood dragon absorbs chakra when it comes into contact with a Justu that uses chakra. Ninjustu uses chakra , therefore it's absorbed.
> 
> The only problem is a Justu that has too much chakra to absorb and thus overwhelms the dragon. Like Preta path absorbing a spirit bomb... Just not happening. & considering bjuidama> is to FRS, I would assume wood dragon could absorb it.



a shunshin from bm naruto destroyed wood dragon and a frs that cut the juubis tails isnt


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> not even slightly an issue hmm...
> flattened a mountain range.
> 
> not even sage madara could react even when he had sage precog..
> ...



Fact remains hashirama techniques are designed to beat naruto 
Naruto would not be getting close to hashi to do anything remotely threatening 

The baby duo looses


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 1, 2015)

Chojo Kebutsu turns Sasuke's Susanoo and Naruto's Avatar into paste along with the users.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> That has the scale to encompass Senpou: Shinsuusenju, and when augmented by senjutsu, it should have the power to destroy it. On the other hand, Senpou: Shinsuusenju hasn't shown the strength to outright kill the Kyuubi bolstered by natural energy, when even Naruto's bijuu form without Sennin Modo could tank the Juubi's Bijuudama. Shinsuusenju really only managed to peel away Madara's Susanoo at the expense of all its arms, and from there Hashirama was able to put the Kyuubi to sleep; not something he could accomplish with a perfect jinchuuriki.



BSM Naruto has nothing to do with this thread, although in 1 on 1 fight, SM Hashirama beats him. Its BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke vs SM Hashirama.

SM Hashirama doesnt need Shinsuusenju to beat BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke - Wood Golem and Wood Dragon combination will do the job.



> He never dodged any regular Bijuudamas and only tried to lead the thrashing Kyuubi to the sea.



He did - he went out of Bijuu Dama's range and created several Rashomons. But as if it is important in this debate anyway - SM Hashirama suppresses BM Naruto with Wood Dragon before he can do super-big Bijuu Dama.



> Naruto benefits from the same Sennin precognition that Hashirama does. Tobirama's normal speed is probably marginally superior to Sasuke's, and with Hirashin, he's as fast as Naruto's top speed. I highly doubt that Madara's Rinnegan doesn't grant any perceptional abilities when it's just an evolved form of his Eternal Mangekyou, or that it would be inferior in any way. If Edo Madara were, "at least a V2 Raikage-level speedster," then it would mean he produces black flashes with his instantaneous shunshin that are equivalent to Hirashin no Jutsu — like he's never shown to do.



Humans evolved from the apes, but we dont have some traits of those apes we evloved from. The fact Rinnegan evolved from his EMS doesnt prove anything. The Rinnegan is a different dodjutsu with different abilities. There is no proof his Rinnegan had precognition abilities.

Edo Madara's movement speed and reaction speed allowed him to block V2 Ei's punch point-blank without any problem. He is a V2 Raikage-level speedster. We can say so because of his feats.



> Madara just has the perceptional abilities through doujutsu to react to A, in the same way MS Sasuke could react to faster characters like version one A or version Bee, or how Kakashi and Danzo could perceive and react to Susanoo arrows. Madara and Sennin Hashirama both should possess precognitive abilities to react to each other, but that doesn't make them as fast as Hirashin users. Unless Sennin Hashirama can instantly clear mountain ranges with Hirashin-level speed like he's never shown to do, then he isn't fast enough to just dodge their attacks. Rinnegan, Sennin Madara with Hashirama's cells besting Tobirama isn't that surprising and isn't pertinent to the characters germane here.



In order to do things Madara and Sasuke did, your body must be fast. Perception means nothing if you cant do anything about enemies attacks.

By the way, i wanna see a proof Danzo's wrapped Shisui's aye gave him precognition. 

We know about only 2 Hiraishin users - Minato and Tobirama. Minato is not as fast as aither Edo Madara, or Edo Hashirama, because of his lack of feats. 

RT Madara, who's movements speed is equal to that of base Hashirama, dodged Tobirama's attack thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode. RT Madara did that against someone with speed comparable to BSM Naruto's speed, or EMS Sasuke's speed. And he did that easily. That SM might be weaker than *alive* Hashirama's Sage Mode by the way. Imagine, how fast alive SM Hashirama will be compare to EMS Sasuke and BM Naruto. He will be able to dodge their attacks effortlessly. 

I dont know why you mentioned Hashirama's cells there, since they have nothing to do with speed. Hashirama's cells do not increase movement speed or reaction speed in any way.



> Naruto and Minato's Senpou: Chou Oodama Rasengan managed to pressure Juubi jinchuuriki Obito and later on it opened a hole through Obito's Rikudou Sennin shield when combined with Sasuke's perfect Susanoo. (1, 2, 3). Naruto may not one-shot it, but Mokujin isn't defeating his bijuu form physically (again, it has the durability to tank the Juubi's Bijuudama). If that somehow fails, then the Mokujin still can't block Renzoku Bijuudama or the supercharged ones I linked above. You're also mistaken about the Mokujin having bare-handed a perfect Susanoo slash. Hashirama used Mokuton: Hotei no Jutsu to stop one crushing swing, and then Madara slashed off all its hands (1). Contrary to what you're saying, Madara added perfect Susanoo blades to Bijuudamas so that Hashirama couldn't block them with Mokujin (1).



Juubi Jin's kryptonite is a Senjutsu chakra. So its not a surprise they could do such a thing to him.

The next slash was stronger, but the sword was still stopped. That shows how durable Hashirama's mokuton is.

Wood Golem can crush EMS Sasuke's Susanoo and then suppress Naruto before he can make any super-big Bijuu Dama.



> If Onoki can erase it, then I'm sure Naruto will somehow manage.



Kurama Avatar suppressed with Wood Dragon. And without Kurama Avatar, BM Naruto smells polen, falls asleep and gets crushed, or absorbed with Wood Dragon.



> I think EMS Sasuke is about as strong as EMS Madara (portrayal supports it, I believe) without the full Kyuubi. Naruto was able to get out and bust the Mokuryuu's head (1). Hashirama isn't catching him with it when Naruto has a Hirashin-level shunshin no jutsu. The Mokuryuu is secondary to the Mokujin (which Hashirama needed to stop the Kyuubi's Bijuudama and later to put it to sleep), and both are secondary to Shinsuusenju. Mokuryuu was really only used to occupy the Kyuubi even when Hashirama used on Madara, and it failed to contain Naruto when Madara used it on him. Hashirama needed to bring out his Mokujin when the Kyuubi started doing more than just clawing and biting at it, at which point Madara needed to respond by bringing out Susanoo (1). Naruto isn't getting beaten by Hashirama's third-best technique, especially when I stated how Naruto beats his better two jutsu above.



EMS Sasuke is weaker than EMS Madara in every way there is. And his PS is completely featless and could cut Juubi Jin only thanks to BSM Naruto's Senjutsu enchancement. He gets crushed with Wood Golem, after which Wood Dragon suppress BM Naruto.

Its hard to say if its head was busted or not. Anyway, as soon as he does that, SM Hashirama can suppress him in the same way he suppressed Edo Madara. 

Edo Madara easily caught his Kurama Avatar in Wood Dragon. And his techniques are fast enough to suppress BM Naruto the moment after he shut down his Kurama Avatar.

SM Hashirama beats both of them. As for BSM Naruto, there is a thread where we can discuss that.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> It didn't 'detonate'. It just plowed right through the Wood Dragon without it able to do a thing. The same thing would happen to a Rasenshuriken. The Bijudama even detonated later, there was no chakra absorption and its out and out proof that it can't absorb ninjutsu. It went up against one and failed.
> 
> 
> That's how Preta works. It just looks Madara never used it against Hashirama since he was playing him the entire battle.
> ...



It didn't need to detonate because the weight and chakra in the TBB was too much for the wood dragon. But it also happens to be a lot more than a FRS so my point still stands.

You mean it was never shown that Madara used Preta path against Hashirama? Please do explain why the hell the other chakra absorption technique would be useful absinthe Hashirama? That's just plain our doesn't make sense .

The fact that you hate Hashirama so much that you're starting to turn this into a Madara vs Hashirama debate is hilarious. You think Madara wins, that's nice for you. The rods he stuck in Hashiramas back clearly couldn't be activated in his EDO state so that's completely moot. Madara was far more likely to use Rinnegan techniques against Hashirama then his stupid body chakra absorption technique which is literally useless against Hashirama.

No I'm not . You are over here trying to overgeneralize everything like you do everytime you debate Hashirama, it's annoying at this point. Just cause wood dragon didn't absorb something far superior to an FRS doesn't mean it can't.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 1, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Fact remains hashirama techniques are designed to beat naruto
> Naruto would not be getting close to hashi to do anything remotely threatening
> 
> The baby duo looses



yup hashiramas techniques are designed to beat jinchuriki guess he beats juubito

lets also ignore he also has ps coating his avatar..


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 1, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Chojo Kebutsu turns Sasuke's Susanoo and Naruto's Avatar into paste along with the users.



Here

not even sage madara could react to bm naruto even when he had sage precog....

bm naruto much faster then hashirama and more then capable of keeping distance from hashirama he has no need to engage hashirama like madara in cqc...that was idiotic he needs to keep at range and launch chou sword damas and chou oodama frs by bm clones the normal frs from bm naruto cleaved juubi tails like butter...

he can also give ma and pa chakra cloaks and that sppeds up frog song while they sit in kyuubi sussano frog song is used and hashirama is helpless..


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> yup hashiramas techniques are designed to beat jinchuriki guess he beats juubito
> 
> lets also ignore he also has ps coating his avatar..



 They're not designed to plow through an onslaught of Susanoo Swords either which Buddha did. You have yet to prove Wood Golem can suppress the power of a Bijuudama. The Juubi literally finger flicked a Bijuudama back. Why can't Buddha do the same considering Wood Golem's ability to grab it?

 Naruto and Sasuke's Kyuubisano pales in comparison to Madara's, so it really doesn't matter.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> It didn't need to detonate because the weight and chakra in the TBB was too much for the wood dragon. But it also happens to be a lot more than a FRS so my point still stands.


FRS is heavy too (remember the amazement it can even be thrown due to how dense it is) and is BLADED. You have no point likes boss. Wood Dragon went up against a ninjutsu and failed to absorb it. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu.


> You mean it was never shown that Madara used Preta path against Hashirama? Please do explain why the hell the other chakra absorption technique would be useful absinthe Hashirama? That's just plain our doesn't make sense .


Since you don't seem to get Madara was again, playing Hashirama so he could buy time for Black Zetsu to arrive. Here's the thing about being shinobi, deception is the key, Madara only used his EMS abilities against Hashirama to keep him in the dark about what he really planned.


> The fact that you hate Hashirama so much that you're starting to turn this into a Madara vs Hashirama debate is hilarious. You think Madara wins, that's nice for you. The rods he stuck in Hashiramas back clearly couldn't be activated in his EDO state so that's completely moot. Madara was far more likely to use Rinnegan techniques against Hashirama then his stupid body chakra absorption technique which is literally useless against Hashirama.


Why couldn't they be activated in the Edo state? Hashirama didn't grasp the danger so he ignored the stabs since he was an Edo Tensei.

You want Hashirama to be stronger than everyone at this point. 


> No I'm not . You are over here trying to overgeneralize everything like you do everytime you debate Hashirama, it's annoying at this point. Just cause wood dragon didn't absorb something far superior to an FRS doesn't mean it can't.


You claim the Mokuton Ryu can absorb ninjutsu. Puts it to the test to show it can't. Thus it can't. You keep claiming it can despite evidence showing it can't.

Its hatred of his WANKING that I have. You even have to create new powers for him to use.


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 1, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> final hit.
> 
> not even sage madara could react to bm naruto even when he had sage precog....



Lool. Madara's Susanoo being unable to evade a blindside attack from BM Naruto's Avatar=/=Sage Madara being unable to react. Sage Madara already reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin blitz, so unless you think Naruto's Avatar is faster than that, there is no debate.



> bm naruto much faster then hashirama and more then capable of keeping distance from hashirama he has no need to engage hashirama like madara in cqc...



Madara didn't engage Hashirama in CQC. That was long range combat. Lol. If that was CQC, you'd see them clashing with their fists/blades, not with long ranged techniques. BM Naruto in his Avatar is NOT much faster than Hashirama, nor is his Avatar fast enough to escape Chojo Kebutsu. Chojo Kebutsu matched Kurama's Bijuu Dama in speed, which crossed the body of water they were fighting by in a second or two. That's only one hand, Chojo Kebutsu consists of 1000 hands that can extend past a Mountain's distance.

Catching Madara's Susanoo off guard isn't a feat that lets him evade, especially when that in itself isn't really a remarkable feat. If he tries to leave his Avatar mode to escape, he gets flattened. If EMS Sasuke can react to Juubito's speed, then Hashirama who is Madara's physical equal (who is faster than Sasuke from what we've seen in the manga) can react to BM Naruto's Shunshin.




> [that was idiotic he needs to keep at range and launch chou sword damas and chou oodama frs by bm clones the normal frs from bm naruto cleaved juubi tails like butter...



Chou Sword Damas are physically impossible. Sasuke's blade isn't long enough to prevent Hashirama from catching any enlarged Bijuu Dama.

1. BM Naruto's FRS did NOT cleave the Juubi's tails. The alliance's chakra phoenix formation did.

2. Chojo Kebutsu>=Madara's Bijuu Dama barrage>>>>>>>>>>Naruto's FRS. It'd punch right through.



> he can also give ma and pa chakra cloaks and that *sppeds up frog song* while they sit in kyuubi sussano frog song is used and hashirama is helpless..



The bold is fanfic, and Ma and Pa take time to be summoned, time which Naruto's hands have to be clasped together, meaning no Bijuu Dama, meaning Hashirama pounds him into the dirt.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

> Madara didn't engage Hashirama in CQC.



Edo Madara did: final hit. final hit.

I personally think Hashirama's speed is very underrated. The dude is one of the fastest shinobi in Narutoverse.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> FRS is heavy too (remember the amazement it can even be thrown due to how dense it is) and is BLADED. You have no point likes boss. Wood Dragon went up against a ninjutsu and failed to absorb it. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu.
> 
> Since you don't seem to get Madara was again, playing Hashirama so he could buy time for Black Zetsu to arrive. Here's the thing about being shinobi, deception is the key, Madara only used his EMS abilities against Hashirama to keep him in the dark about what he really planned.
> 
> ...



Butthurt child wood dragon absorbs ninjutsu read the DB it absorbed madara chakra preventing him from using preta path . Now I know it can't absorb a Bd hence why the BD ran through it but hey hashirama has 10 ways to make Bd look like child's play 

Seriously 98% of the people on this thread have already told you who they think would win. 
We can't all be wrong now can we ?


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lool. Madara's Susanoo being unable to evade a blindside attack from BM Naruto's Avatar=/=Sage Madara being unable to react. Sage Madara already reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin blitz, so unless you think Naruto's Avatar is faster than that, there is no debate.



 I seriously can't believe how much that argument is brought up considering it was a surprise attack. Madara's full attention went towards the 7 Bijuu. BSM Naruto wasn't even there until he joined in and attacked Madara. How people besides you and a couple other people have not noticed this is beyond me.

 Madara also did not have precognition or at least, Sharingan Precognition here sabre.  It's been made clear ever since Sennin Mode was displayed that Sensing is inferior to actually seeing your opponent as stated by Jiraiya (And he didn't even consider Precognition when he commented on the Pain's reflexes) and Madara's EMS Precognition is way way far above that (esp. with a Straight Comma) which means Madara's reflexes were severely hindered due to being Blind regardless if he had Sage Sensing or not.

 That and Juubidara was blindsided by Black Zetsu, so that feat of BSM Naruto that everyone shows to downplay Madara is hilarious unless you think Juubidara is weaker than Black Zetsu who's a mama's boy to begin with.

 There we go, Key and I have debunked that argument. Carry on.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lool. Madara's Susanoo being unable to evade a blindside attack from BM Naruto's Avatar=/=Sage Madara being unable to react. Sage Madara already reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishin blitz, so unless you think Naruto's Avatar is faster than that, there is no debate.


Sage RINNEGAN Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. BM Naruto was able to blitz blind Sage Madara without him able to react. The Rinnegan helped Madara's reactions.

And NarutoX28, that was BM Naruto, not BSM Naruto that blitzed and tail-slapped Madara.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage RINNEGAN Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. BM Naruto was able to blitz blind Sage Madara without him able to react. The Rinnegan helped Madara's reactions.
> 
> And NarutoX28, that was BM Naruto, not BSM Naruto that blitzed and tail-slapped Madara.



Ok people, maybe someone will reply to me. I want you, Naruto fans, to prove Madara's real Rinnegan gives EMS's precognition. Give me at least 1 proof that it gives precognition/speed boost etc. At least 1 proof. Because *SuperSaiyaMan12* wont even see my post due to me being in his... special list. At least when he is logged, lol. 

And dont even bother bringing that bullsh*t "oh his Rinnegan evolved from EMS so it must have EMS's traits!!!". Thats bullsh*t. Perfect Susanoo evolved from imperfect Susanoo which can make Yasaka Magatama. Can you show me where PS could create Yasaka Magatama? Humans evolved from apes. Do you think we share all of apes traits? Should i remind you the difference between MS and EMS, which evolved from MS?


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage RINNEGAN Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. BM Naruto was able to blitz blind Sage Madara without him able to react. *The Rinnegan helped Madara's reactions.*
> 
> And NarutoX28, that was BM Naruto, not BSM Naruto that blitzed and tail-slapped Madara.



Zero proof for the bold. There's no reason getting his Rinnegan back would let his body move faster. I could agree if reacting to Hiraishingiri had anything to do with visual perception (since that's how Dojutsu help) but it was a blindside attack.

So you have no point here. Saying Naruto blitzed Madara is like saying Black Zetsu blitzed him.



NarutoX28 said:


> I seriously can't believe how much that argument is brought up considering it was a surprise attack. Madara's full attention went towards the 7 Bijuu. BSM Naruto wasn't even there until he joined in and attacked Madara. How people besides you and a couple other people have not noticed this is beyond me.
> 
> Madara also did not have precognition or at least, Sharingan Precognition here sabre.  It's been made clear ever since Sennin Mode was displayed that Sensing is inferior to actually seeing your opponent as stated by Jiraiya (And he didn't even consider Precognition when he commented on the Pain's reflexes) and Madara's EMS Precognition is way way far above that (esp. with a Straight Comma) which means Madara's reflexes were severely hindered due to being Blind regardless if he had Sage Sensing or not.
> 
> ...



Right. Lol. I can't even deal. Good point with the bold.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Sage RINNEGAN Madara reacted to Tobirama's Hiraishingiri. BM Naruto was able to blitz blind Sage Madara without him able to react. The Rinnegan helped Madara's reactions.
> 
> And NarutoX28, that was BM Naruto, not BSM Naruto that blitzed and tail-slapped Madara.



 That blitz was a surprise attack. BM Naruto wasn't even there when Madara directed his statement towards the Seven Bijuu, so that's not even a fair comparison.

 If you want to use that as evidence, then you should also put Black Zetsu on Juubidara's level because he actually blindsided him as well.

 Oh, that was BM Naruto? Still doesn't refute my point.

 True, he did have the Rinnegan, but since that's a blindside attack, Madara didn't have Precognition to benefit him here as the Rinnegan obviously has blind spots.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That blitz was a surprise attack. BM Naruto wasn't even there when Madara directed his statement towards the Seven Bijuu, so that's not even a fair comparison.
> 
> If you want to use that as evidence, then you should also put Black Zetsu on Juubidara's level because he actually blindsided him as well.
> 
> ...


I think the Rinnegan makes a difference since Madara had a Limbo Clone there...and he has Outer Path's Shared Vision. Thus through the Limbo Clone's invisible Rinnegan eye, he could see Tobirama coming and Madara could react.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I think the Rinnegan makes a difference since Madara had a Limbo Clone there...and he has Outer Path's Shared Vision. Thus through the Limbo Clone's invisible Rinnegan eye, he could see Tobirama coming and Madara could react.



 Nothing implies that there was still a Limbo clone or that the Limbo clone's attention was towards the real Madara which doesn't seem to make sense as Madara at the time wasn't even concerned about his own well-being.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 1, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Nothing implies that there was still a Limbo clone or that the Limbo clone's attention was towards the real Madara which doesn't seem to make sense as Madara at the time wasn't even concerned about his own well-being.


Once the Limbo Clone is made, it doesn't disappear until its defeated or sealed. The moment Limbo was revealed to be just an invisible Shadow Clone we got a reason why Madara could react to the Hiraishingiri. The Limbo Clone watched...Madara got the data through shared vision and he reacted. We know there was still a Limbo Clone there since it caught Sasuke when he attempted to attack Madara.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 1, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Once the Limbo Clone is made, it doesn't disappear until its defeated or sealed. The moment Limbo was revealed to be just an invisible Shadow Clone we got a reason why Madara could react to the Hiraishingiri. The Limbo Clone watched...Madara got the data through shared vision and he reacted. We know there was still a Limbo Clone there since it caught Sasuke when he attempted to attack Madara.



 Okay, that's a fair point. I don't know why I forgot a simple detail like that.

 Carry on now.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> FRS is heavy too (remember the amazement it can even be thrown due to how dense it is) and is BLADED. You have no point likes boss. Wood Dragon went up against a ninjutsu and failed to absorb it. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu.
> 
> Since you don't seem to get Madara was again, playing Hashirama so he could buy time for Black Zetsu to arrive. Here's the thing about being shinobi, deception is the key, Madara only used his EMS abilities against Hashirama to keep him in the dark about what he really planned.
> 
> ...



FRS isn't as heavy as a large bjuiidama .And it being bladed doesn't mean anything when the dragon can move around the blades and absorb the target. Or straight up absorb the justu considering its made of chakra . That's terrible ass logic. Ummm cause I remember wood dragon canceling preta because they both absorb chakra. What is Ninjustu made of again ? 


I don't even care about what you think happened in that fight. We aren't even debating that.

You know why I think it absorbs Ninjustu?:

?Cause its stated to absorb chakra 
? Ninjustu is made of chakra 
? it matched preta which absorbs chakra.

Checkmate.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

And what the hell did he see coming ? He could only have seen the Kunai which he didn't know was even tagged.... So Madara himself reacted to that FTG warp.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> And what the hell did he see coming ? He could only have seen the Kunai which he didn't know was even tagged.... So Madara himself reacted to that FTG warp.



RT SM Madara clealry reacted to Tobirama's attacking speed, not just FTG/Shunshin etc, with which he could mark Juubito and tag him later. Madara did that, effortlessly, with Edo Hashirama's SM, which is probably weaker then alive Hashirama's SM. Imagine how fast alive SM Hashirama can be.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> Since you don't seem to get Madara was again, playing Hashirama so he could buy time for Black Zetsu to arrive.



And where is a proof Madara was playing with him? 



> Its hatred of his WANKING that I have. You even have to create new powers for him to use.



Dude, you are hating Hashirama and Madara too much. Nobody of us created anything - we are using manga and Databook statements to counter your every "arguement".


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> FRS isn't as heavy as a large bjuiidama .And it being bladed doesn't mean anything when the dragon can move around the blades and absorb the target. Or straight up absorb the justu considering its made of chakra . That's terrible ass logic. Ummm cause I remember wood dragon canceling preta because they both absorb chakra. What is Ninjustu made of again ?


Again. Wood Dragon went up against a Ninjutsu and couldn't absorb it. It showed it can only absorb pure chakra, unmolded chakra.


> You know why I think it absorbs Ninjustu?:
> 
> •Cause its stated to absorb chakra
> • Ninjustu is made of chakra
> ...


And its only attempt to absorb a ninjutsu ended with it breaking. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu, just chakra it can latch onto. And all it matched was Madara's natural absorption jutsu, not Preta Path.

You're using the same flawed logic that Kisame fans used to use for Samehada. Claiming it can absorb ninjutsu when all its been shown to absorb is pure unrefined and unmolded chakra. Unlike Samehada though, Wood Dragon went up against a ninjutsu and explicitly FAILED to absorb it.


Likes boss said:


> And what the hell did he see coming ? He could only have seen the Kunai which he didn't know was even tagged.... So Madara himself reacted to that FTG warp.


Since he has a Limbo Clone there. He saw it coming with Shared Vision. Madara reacted due to THAT not to being insanely fast or reflexive.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> Again. Wood Dragon went up against a Ninjutsu and couldn't absorb it. It showed it can only absorb pure chakra, unmolded chakra.



It also absorbed BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar - a molded chakra. 



> And its only attempt to absorb a ninjutsu ended with it breaking. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu, just chakra it can latch onto. And all it matched was Madara's natural absorption jutsu, not Preta Path.
> 
> You're using the same flawed logic that Kisame fans used to use for Samehada. Claiming it can absorb ninjutsu when all its been shown to absorb is pure unrefined and unmolded chakra. Unlike Samehada though, Wood Dragon went up against a ninjutsu and explicitly FAILED to absorb it.



It matched Madara's Preta Path. If he could absorb Wood Dragon, he would have done it. But it was slowly sapping his chakra in order to render Preta Paths absorbtion useless. Madara wasnt playing with him since there is no proof to suggest he was. He couldnt absorb Wood Dragon with Preta Path and its a reason why Naruto's FRS detonated and wasnt absorbed. Period.

And Wood Dragon could absorb Kurama Avatar.

ALso, i dont get how is it impossible for Wood Dragon to absorb chakra. Ninjutsu consists of chakra. It *IS* a chakra. So yeah, Wood Dragon can absorb ninjutsu. 

And as i remember, Samehada absorbed Itachi's Katon - a ninjutsu.



> Since he has a Limbo Clone there. He saw it coming with Shared Vision. Madara reacted due to THAT not to being insanely fast or reflexive.



Oh boy, now you have to prove his Limbo was *THERE* and saw Tobirama. Also, Madara reacted with his reaction speed and movement speed to Tobirama. Shared vision, precognition and sensing cant help you when your body cant move fast enough to dodge/block etc.
*
You wont see my post because i am in your ban list. But at least other people will see my posts and see how wrong you are.*


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Again. Wood Dragon went up against a Ninjutsu and couldn't absorb it. It showed it can only absorb pure chakra, unmolded chakra.
> 
> And its only attempt to absorb a ninjutsu ended with it breaking. Ergo, it can't absorb ninjutsu, just chakra it can latch onto. And all it matched was Madara's natural absorption jutsu, not Preta Path.
> 
> ...



One of the strongest Ninjustu to date yeah. Is that FRS ? No lmao.

Chakra is chakra, if something is shown to equal Preta path then it can clearly absorb Justu.

It broke due to the sheer weight of the tech + the fact that a TBB of that size holds a shit Ton of chakra. Everything has a limit, preta isn't absorbing a planet buster.

Do you have panels and a BD entry for Madara's absorption justu ?

Except for Samehada outright absorbed Itachis Katon. Bad example lmao. 

What would the limbo clone do please explain. FTG is instant, and Tobirama came off the FTG already moving. Not only this but Madara didn't even know the Kunai was tagged, so he most likely just saw a kunai being tossed and dodged it like he did. The next attack was unexpected.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> What would the limbo clone do please explain. FTG is instant, and Tobirama came off the FTG already moving. Not only this but Madara didn't even know the Kunai was tagged, so he most likely just saw a kunai being tossed and dodged it like he did. The next attack was unexpected.



There is *no proof* The Limbo clone was there and saw Tobirama in the first place. Thats just SuperSayan's fantasy.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> There is *no proof* The Limbo clone was there and saw Tobirama in the first place. Thats just SuperSayan's fantasy.



Yeah it's a big assumption


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> One of the strongest Ninjustu to date yeah. Is that FRS ? No lmao.


Then you have it absorbing OTHER techniques then? Since there's only one test on panel and Mokuton Ryu failed miserably.


> Chakra is chakra, if something is shown to equal Preta path then it can clearly absorb Justu.


No, its not. Chakra in its pure form is easy to absorb. But molded, it becomes a completely other animal. Preta Path can only absorb ninjutsu through sealing it. And again, all the Mokuton Ryu countered was the regular ninjutsu absorption that Madara had, not Preta Path itself.


> It broke due to the sheer weight of the tech + the fact that a TBB of that size holds a shit Ton of chakra. Everything has a limit, preta isn't absorbing a planet buster.


You're just making excuses. On panel evidence shows Mokuton Ryu isn't absorbing a ninjutsu, yet you keep saying it can. 


> Do you have panels and a BD entry for Madara's absorption justu ?


No, but we can infer is the same type of technique or modification Orochimaru or Yoroi Akado have. Absorbing chakra they touch via skin contact. Instead of making a barrier by spinning their chakra to seal a incoming technique.


> Except for Samehada outright absorbed Itachis Katon. Bad example lmao.


No, it just cut it in half. If it absorbed Itachi's Katon, Itachi's Katon would have disappeared.


> What would the limbo clone do please explain. FTG is instant, and Tobirama came off the FTG already moving. Not only this but Madara didn't even know the Kunai was tagged, so he most likely just saw a kunai being tossed and dodged it like he did. The next attack was unexpected.


The Limbo Clone and Madara are connected via Outer Path. When the kunai flies in and Tobirama grabs it in FTG, the Limbo Clone being invisible and undetectable sees it and Madara avoids it and when Tobirama tries again its the same result. Shared vision is a counter to Hirashin due to the fact it takes away the 'surprise' factor Hirashin has.



Likes boss said:


> Yeah it's a big assumption


But it was still there and it caught Sasuke.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 2, 2015)

> But it was still there and it caught Sasuke.



There is *no proof* it was there when Tobirama attacked him. And there is *no proof* it saw Tobirama's attack. Thats your fantasy. Plus, anyway, SM RT Madara dodged Tobirama's attacking speed, with which he tagged Juubito by a FTG mark, due to Madara's movement speed and reaction speed.

And you forgot about Madara's Hashirama Sensing and SM amped sensing with which surprise factor is nullified.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That blitz was a surprise attack. BM Naruto wasn't even there when Madara directed his statement towards the Seven Bijuu, so that's not even a fair comparison.
> 
> If you want to use that as evidence, then you should also put Black Zetsu on Juubidara's level because he actually blindsided him as well.
> 
> ...



how da hell was that a blindside attack when madara has sage mode threat perception he was already a brilliant sensor without it..

madara would see him coming from a mile away with sm...he reacted to tobiramas blinside ftg attack..

what are hashis counters to frogsong which is sped up with chakra cloaks while the frogs sit in kyuubi sussano?

a normal frs from bm naruto cut two of juubis tails!! let that sink in the juubi is as large as the wood budha and far more durable.. now a barrage of chou oodama rasenshuriken from bm clones backed by chou sword damas shred shinsensenju.. and before someone says chou sword damas arent possible sasuke can extend sussanos sword..

(4)


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> I think the Rinnegan makes a difference since Madara had a Limbo Clone there...and he has Outer Path's Shared Vision. Thus through the Limbo Clone's invisible Rinnegan eye, he could see Tobirama coming and Madara could react.



Outer Path was shown to be usable via the Six Paths of Pain and summons, not clones. Besides, this is nothing but an assumption on your part.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Then you have it absorbing OTHER techniques then? Since there's only one test on panel and Mokuton Ryu failed miserably.
> 
> No, its not. Chakra in its pure form is easy to absorb. But molded, it becomes a completely other animal. Preta Path can only absorb ninjutsu through sealing it. And again, all the Mokuton Ryu countered was the regular ninjutsu absorption that Madara had, not Preta Path itself.
> 
> ...


It doesn't need the feats if it's stated to absorb chakra and it equaled Preta path. That's far enough proof. You think you need on panel feats for everything instead of using common sense and implication.

Can you prove that ? And wood absorbed a KYUUBI cloak, which isn't just basic pure chakra. Naw it was easily preta path as it was stated to be a rinnegan technique.

On label wood dragon has:
? been stated to absorb chakra 
? negated preta path 
? absorbed Kyyubi cloak
? absorbed Madara's chakra.
It can absorb Ninjustu,  you are being extremely delusional.

Lmaoooo. You can't infer anything at all. The absorption justu Madara used? Same one was used by Sasuke against naruto which was stated to be a Rinnegan tech:  Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived

How many Rinnegan techniques do you know that absorb chakra ? One and that's preta path. Checkmate.

Bruh are you serious ? That's literally beyond illogical and almost comical at this point. You think bee cut a katon in half by simply swinging his sword ? Umm no, he clearly a large AoE of the fire blast: Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived

Even if you assume that he could part a fireball with a physical swing, the AoE taken away from the fire is still too large...


You clearly don't get what I'm saying. EVEN IF A LIMBO CLONE WAS PRESENT,  they didn't know the Kunai was tagged. Meaning they simply alerted Madara to dodge the kunai and didn't expect Tobirama to appear.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 2, 2015)

Likes boss said:


> It doesn't need the feats if it's stated to absorb chakra and it equaled Preta path. That's far enough proof. You think you need on panel feats for everything instead of using common sense and implication.


Yes, it does need other feats since the only time it went up against a ninjutsu it failed to absorb it. Its that simple. If it hasn't absorbed another ninjutsu in the past, it means it can't. Its truly that simple.


> Can you prove that ? And wood absorbed a KYUUBI cloak, which isn't just basic pure chakra. Naw it was easily preta path as it was stated to be a rinnegan technique.


It absorbed Naruto's BM Cloak after a significant amount of time. And yeah, kind of is just pure chakra just manifested. And you have to prove it was Preta Path it countered instead of the standard absorption ninjutsu.


> On label wood dragon has:
> ? been stated to absorb chakra
> ? negated preta path
> ? absorbed Kyyubi cloak
> ...


And its only test in absorbing ninjutsu, it failed. I'm not being delusional, I'm just pointing out that when put to the test against a ninjutsu, it failed to absorb. Thus...it can't absorb ninjutsu.
Lmaoooo. You can't infer anything at all. The absorption justu Madara used? 





> Same one was used by Sasuke against naruto which was stated to be a Rinnegan tech:  Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived


Sasuke explicitly said he used his Rinnegan to absorb chakra there. Did Madara say he was using his Rinnegan to do the same against Hashirama?


> How many Rinnegan techniques do you know that absorb chakra ? One and that's preta path. Checkmate.


And Madara has an entirely different technique to absorb chakra without eyes. So claiming its Preta he used is in question. Unless you believe Hashirama's Mokuton Ryu can counter Hagoromo's Preta Path usage?


> Bruh are you serious ? That's literally beyond illogical and almost comical at this point. You think bee cut a katon in half by simply swinging his sword ? Umm no, he clearly a large AoE of the fire blast: Kakuzu fought Hashirama and he survived


If the ninjutsu was absorbed, it would have disappeared completely instead of merely being cut in half.


> Even if you assume that he could part a fireball with a physical swing, the AoE taken away from the fire is still too large...


Not with Bee's physical strength put up against it. I've seen this same type of cut hundreds of times in other work without any 'absorption' being said.



> You clearly don't get what I'm saying. EVEN IF A LIMBO CLONE WAS PRESENT,  they didn't know the Kunai was tagged. Meaning they simply alerted Madara to dodge the kunai and didn't expect Tobirama to appear.


The tag is clearly on the kunai though. You are familiar with the Shared Vision argument being Hiraishin's counter in general, right?


----------



## Veracity (Mar 2, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Yes, it does need other feats since the only time it went up against a ninjutsu it failed to absorb it. Its that simple. If it hasn't absorbed another ninjutsu in the past, it means it can't. Its truly that simple.
> 
> It absorbed Naruto's BM Cloak after a significant amount of time. And yeah, kind of is just pure chakra just manifested. And you have to prove it was Preta Path it countered instead of the standard absorption ninjutsu.
> 
> ...



Naww screw this, from now on I'm using your logic .

Because Narutos FRS hasnt been shown to bypass a single Justu that absorbs chakra, it can't. Simple as that right ?

You are very much exaggerating the time frame there.

So are you really going to believe he used a completely different Justu although the same Justu exists within the power of the Rinnegan and that SAME JUSTU IS ALMOST IDENTICAL AS PRETA PATH. At this point in time you are literally inventing Justu for Madara instead of using Justu he already. You're seriously gonna sit here and say he used a completely new Justu, when the same Justu is used with the Rinnegan ? 

Let me go ahead and kill your argument even more and show you a panel where Hashirama explicitly says he's going to negate every chakra absorption Justu he has:  Link

And the logical you are using there is absolutely terrible. Just because it didn't absorb bjuidama doesnt mean it can't absorb any Ninjustu. I mean you clearly can tell eBay that logical is absolutely awful and I can list multiple examples of the same logic as a rebuttal. 

Madara didn't have to say that to for the readers to infer it was a Rinnegan Justu. You think every character says exactly how the Justu they used is being executed everytime they use it ? 

Well Hashirama outright says he can counter every single absorption technique he has so ...? And if Madara couldn't use his eyes, that's a means to revert to an inferior absorption technique, but would be useless if he has the Rinnegan like he did against Hashirama.

Except there's a difference between the sages preta path and Madaras? 

What? Samehada isn't the absorption barrier you know that right ? It absorbs chakra different from that Justu. To say they both are the same is laughable.

 Hundreds ? List them from this manga right now.

If the tag is seen yes, but the tag wasn't seen here. He thought it was merely a thrown kunai. Further into a battle shared vision would be important, but in that specific instance ? No.


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2015)

Hashirama beat Madara and the full Kyuubi. What do you think is going to happen to a vastly inferior Uchiha and a Jinchuuriki of only half the Kyuubi? 

If Naruto buffs them both with Senjutsu, he and Sasuke can beat Hashirama like they did Juubito. But I'm not sure if that violates the "no-chakra-sharing" rule in the first scenario. If they can't do that, they're screwed.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Hashirama beat Madara and the full Kyuubi. What do you think is going to happen to a vastly inferior Uchiha and a Jinchuuriki of only half the Kyuubi?
> 
> If Naruto buffs them both with Senjutsu, he and Sasuke can beat Hashirama like they did Juubito. But I'm not sure if that violates the "no-chakra-sharing" rule in the first scenario. If they can't do that, they're screwed.



Lol nice generalizations there 

bm naruto is far faster then the kyuubi,managed to producefar stronger attacks then a controlled kyuubi in chou oodama bijudama tanked the juubis laser and can produce multiple bm clones that can spam frs that cleaved the juubis tails like butter...

and then you are ignoring that sasuke and naruto have far better synergy..

Bm naruto blitzed sage madara with his bm avatar who is far faster then hashirama..he had sage threat perception so would see naruto coming a mile away and was a sensor without it..
.he reacted to tobiramas blinside ftg attack..

what are hashis counters to frogsong which is sped up with chakra cloaks while the frogs sit in kyuubi sussano?

a normal frs from bm naruto cut two of juubis tails!! let that sink in the juubi is as large as the wood budha and far more durable.. now a barrage of chou oodama rasenshuriken from bm clones backed by chou sword damas shred shinsensenju.. and before someone says chou sword damas arent possible sasuke can extend sussanos sword..

Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!


----------



## Bkprince33 (Mar 3, 2015)

i think people don't realize how long it takes to summon ma and pa, against nagato they where summoned prior to the fight, in this scenario naruto would have to take the time to summon ma and pa, while he has all type of wooden shyt chasing him, summoning ma and pa, in a megazord battle is one of the silliest things naruto can do.



hashi wins this by the buddha's sheer size and brute force, unless fire can somehow weaken it and sasuke can enshroud both of them in some kind of enton shield i don't see them winning


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Lol nice generalizations there
> 
> bm naruto is far faster then the kyuubi,managed to producefar stronger attacks then a controlled kyuubi in chou oodama bijudama tanked the juubis laser and can produce multiple bm clones that can spam frs that cleaved the juubis tails like butter...
> 
> ...



prove juubi tails are more durable than hashirama mokuton constructs. go on...ill wait. i guess hiashi can just about kill most ninja since u know he knocked back a juubi tail. lolz

any proof frog song will be sped up by sitting in the cloaks. also good luck using it. sasuke would be caught as well. lastly hashirama broke out of ET with negative difficutly. something that took a genjutsu master like itachi casting genjutus on himself. 

genjutsu prolly wont do shit to hashirama. hashirama uses budda they turn to paste


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Bkprince33 said:


> i think people don't realize how long it takes to summon ma and pa, against nagato they where summoned prior to the fight, in this scenario naruto would have to take the time to summon ma and pa, while he has all type of wooden shyt chasing him, summoning ma and pa, in a megazord battle is one of the silliest things naruto can do.
> 
> 
> 
> hashi wins this by the buddha's sheer size and brute force, unless fire can somehow weaken it and sasuke can enshroud both of them in some kind of enton shield i don't see them winning



summoning ma and pa does not take alot of time jirayia was prepping his sage mode because he wasnt skilled in it...naruto can summon them inside of kyuubi sussano...

budhas sheer size and brute force was neautralized by 11 sword damas naruto can launch chou sword damas at hashirama which can be produced by sasuke extending his sword like against the god tree..not to mention backed by chou oodamafrs barrage from bm clones ...a normal frs from bm naruto cleaved 2 of juubis tails the juubi is as big as the buudha and far more durable why are u ignoring this? the pheonix formation was spearheaded by frs which cut the tails..


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> prove juubi tails are more durable than hashirama mokuton constructs. go on...ill wait. i guess hiashi can just about kill most ninja since u know he knocked back a juubi tail. lolz
> 
> any proof frog song will be sped up by sitting in the cloaks. also good luck using it. sasuke would be caught as well. lastly hashirama broke out of ET with negative difficutly. something that took a genjutsu master like itachi casting genjutus on himself.
> 
> genjutsu prolly wont do shit to hashirama. hashirama uses budda they turn to paste



Ok jesus now buudha is more durable then the juubi..but ok ill provide the evidence..

the juubis tails tanked its own super juubidama,,..
Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!

here the tails tanked a bijudama that destroyed both wood golem and wood dragon buffed by multiple amped chakra slashes and palms..
Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!

frog song is  ma and pas jutsu and can be guided to affect who they want otherwise naruto and jirayia would be affected by frog call and frog song..

frog song takes time to gather chakra chakra cloaks are massive amounts of chakra to help them..

jesus christ come up with some decent arguments ice ...he breaks frogsong cuz herp derp he is hashirama


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ok jesus now buudha is more durable then the juubi..but ok ill provide the evidence..
> 
> the juubis tails tanked its own super juubidama,,..
> Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!
> ...



Eh, I admit that FRS is pretty good but to imply that it is comparable/superior to a Juubidama is quite an...exaggeration.

If we go with this logic then we could assume that MS Sasuke's Chidori sword is like super amazing since it cut Hachibi's tentacle which did not happen when Hachibi was hit by his own bijuudama. Chidori sword>bijuudama?

Or better yet, Juubi could return a bijuudama with a flick of its finger yet Hinata's void palm was able to push back the hand of a superior version of Juubi. Kyuubi cloaked Hinata> Hachibi?

Personally I think that Juubi's arms are less resistant than his arms or Kishi was just being silly. Otherwise why did not Naruto cut the Juubi in half with a FRS or a FRS the size he threw against Madara? Hilariously though Hashi commented that Naruto's ultra FRS was unable to defeat Madara and only allowed him an opening to restrict Madara with his Great Gate. Is Madara more durable than Juubi?

As for Frog Song, Animal Pain could hear it and figure out its nature before it was ready to take effect(which could be why Nagato decided to call for 3 other Pain bodies while keeping them away from a safe distance). 
Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!

Also Deva who is far below Hashi's level could stop the jutsu casually in fact.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Ok jesus now buudha is more durable then the juubi..but ok ill provide the evidence..
> 
> the juubis tails tanked its own super juubidama,,..
> Madara: Nine-Tails, you are merely a temporary life, a temporary existence of coalesced energy. Energy that was once a single, ultimate form! An unstable force, lacking in intelligence or sapience, you require a guide to show you purpose. That guide is the Uchiha! The tailed beasts are but slaves to those with blessed eyes! Obey!
> ...



u said its tail!! not the juubi. also juubi tanked its bijuudama. did budda fail to tank it? it never faced it. if hashirama can say on panel i would use birth of trees to divert a juubito BD. why cant budda tank juubi's bijuudama. considering juubito is stronger than the juubi. 

prove frog song can be guided to affect who they want. sound genjutsu has never shown such ability. its indiscriminate. 

again prove chakra cloak would make their frog song any quciker. also since naruto got the kyuubi powers he hasnt at all resorted to ma or pa. btw would have been very useful against juubito. and he had more thann enough assistance to pull it off. yet he didnt. 

yes he breaks frog song. unless u are saying in terms of mind control frog song is superior to ET. go on claim that why doont u.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

Uh Arles Celes, didn't you see the Juubi Tails tanking this barrage with no damage?


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 3, 2015)

as for captain troll poster above aka SSM12. sabre before u use those panels as proof juubi tail>budda 
do note all those attacks are vastly inferior to 12 susanoo kyuubi BD's. 

nothing at all suggests juubi tail is more durable than budda. juubi itself yh most likely. but again i dont see why at all budda would fall to a juubi BD. when naruto avatar could survive juubi stage 1. btw naruto avatar in BM mode is basically kurama. perfect jin's can transform to their bijuu. the kyuubi avatar is kyuubi chakra. 

i find it odd when people try and make it sound like BM naruto vastly exceeds 100% kyuubi. despite the massive chakra difference between the 2


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Uh Arles Celes, didn't you see the Juubi Tails tanking this barrage with no damage?



But were those tails not pushed back(like 4 of them) and in the next page they was smoke coming out of them as it they were melting or something?
with no damage?

Though the "Neji's will of the Bird" attack seemed to be more than just FRS and rather the combined power of the whole Alliance in the form of a bird.
with no damage?

It is a bit hard to gauge the durability of some people correctly though. Or some feats.

Like how Neji o Hiashi could deflect one of those arms even without Naruto's chakra boost?
with no damage?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> But were those tails not pushed back(like 4 of them) and in the next page they was smoke coming out of them as it they were melting or something?
> with no damage?
> 
> Though the "Neji's will of the Bird" attack seemed to be more than just FRS and rather the combined power of the whole Alliance in the form of a bird.
> ...


Those tails still tanked everything BUT the Futon: Rasenshuriken, Arles. And no, that was just smoke from the attack but the tails were completely undamaged. The Rasenshuriken (the first one) is the one that cut open the 'cage' to make the bird of chakra representing Neji's will fly out.

Kind of seems like you're just trying to deny the upgrade the Rasenshuriken gets in Biju Mode.

Neji and Hiashi rotated clockwise and counter-clockwise with their Kaiten to stop the Juubi Tail, remember?


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> u said its tail!! not the juubi. also juubi tanked its bijuudama. did budda fail to tank it? it never faced it. if hashirama can say on panel i would use birth of trees to divert a juubito BD. why cant budda tank juubi's bijuudama. considering juubito is stronger than the juubi.
> 
> prove frog song can be guided to affect who they want. sound genjutsu has never shown such ability. its indiscriminate.
> 
> ...



are u seriously saying budha has a cance of even tanking juubis super bijudama are u serious ice

juubi is on another level to the buudha...the buudha was neautralized by 12 sworddamas one normal juubidama is enough to destroy a freaking coutry..a super juubidama was far larger then the juubi ur wanking hashi to insane levels ice....

if frog song was indescriminate it would have affected jirayia.. and frog call would have affected naruto but it didnt....

frog song takes time to gather chakra naruto can instantly provide massive chakra do the math..

frog song is a genjutsu that shuts down an opponents mind ...hashi is not breaking it...tobirama broke edo tensei control...theonly reason he was binded again was because of hashis cells and hashi was immune to the effect of his own chakra...stop wanking ice ur better then this,... hashi is helpless against frog song.


----------



## Thunder (Mar 3, 2015)

> if frog song was indescriminate it would have affected jirayia.. and frog call would have affected naruto but it didnt....



If a technique hurts the caster it's explicitly told to us. Some examples being Naruto's incomplete Fūton: Rasenshuriken 	 and Hanzō's salamander poison. 

Otherwise assume they don't. Mei's acid doesn't hurt her. It's the same with Frog Song and Frog Call. They effect everyone else but the user.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Thunder said:


> If a technique hurts the caster it's explicitly told to us. Some examples being Naruto's incomplete Fūton: Rasenshuriken 	 and Hanzō's salamander poison.
> 
> Otherwise assume they don't. Mei's acid doesn't hurt her. It's the same with Frog Song and Frog Call. They effect everyone else but the user.



they arent the users technique though they are ma and pas thus its pretty blatantly apparent that they have the ability to choose who their technique affects..say if they use frogsong from indide kyuubi sussano directing outwards.. standing on narutos shoulders infront of sasuke i really doubt sasuke would fall to frogsong..


----------



## Thunder (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> they arent the users technique though they are ma and pas thus its pretty blatantly apparent that they have the ability to choose who their technique affects..



I see what you mean sabre, but summons are counted as a part of the caster's arsenal. And remember: Ma and Pa are "fused" with Jiraya via Senpō: Ryōsei. 

So it makes sense the same standard I mentioned before would apply to them as well.

As for Frog Song vs. Hashirama, I do agree Hashi probably breaks it 'cause he's Hashi. So I'd give him the benefit of the doubt myself.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Those tails still tanked everything BUT the Futon: Rasenshuriken, Arles. And no, that was just smoke from the attack but the tails were completely undamaged. The Rasenshuriken (the first one) is the one that cut open the 'cage' to make the bird of chakra representing Neji's will fly out.
> 
> Kind of seems like you're just trying to deny the upgrade the Rasenshuriken gets in Biju Mode.
> 
> Neji and Hiashi rotated clockwise and counter-clockwise with their Kaiten to stop the Juubi Tail, remember?



I did not see the FRS cutting through those arms to be fair. Only the "bird". Not counting the FRS cutting though Obito's Juubi roots.

The thing is that Naruto's FRS did not look all that big in comparison to when he used it in other modes:
this
this
It could be that he can make his FRS more powerful in BM than in those weaker modes but he needs to charge it enough for that.

More importantly...does it mean that Naruto's BM FRS is superior to his superbijuudama?

After all Juubi's first form emerged undamaged after being hit by Naruto's and Hachibi's combined bijuudama.
Link removed
Link removed

Inconsistency?


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> I did not see the FRS cutting through those arms to be fair. Only the "bird". Not counting the FRS cutting though Obito's Juubi roots.
> 
> The thing is that Naruto's FRS did not look all that big in comparison to when he used it in other modes:
> Link removed
> ...


None whatsoever. In cutting ability, his BM FRS is superior to the Super Bijudama. And think about this, Naruto started off with two Rasenshuriken before the cut one is gone after it.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> I did not see the FRS cutting through those arms to be fair. Only the "bird". Not counting the FRS cutting though Obito's Juubi roots.
> 
> The thing is that Naruto's FRS did not look all that big in comparison to when he used it in other modes:
> after it.
> ...



in the earlier panel you were shown that the juubi tails shrugged of bees bijudama and a barrage of amped attacks...a bm frs cleaved through juuubi tails a crudely shaped chakra bird with basic shape manipulation is not doing that...

the conclusion that can be drawn is very simple it can cut through buudhas arms easier and when chou oodama frs are used by bm clones backed by chou sword damas from the kyuubisussano budha will get shredded..


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Mar 3, 2015)

As for the whole blitzing Blind Madara thing and Limbo Clone:

1: It is possible to catch a Sage user off guard. It's happened to Naruto too. Sage perception is not perfect and cannot sense every little detail of what is going on. 

2: There's no proof as stated earlier that it was a Limbo clone that reacted to Tobirama. Why wouldn't Madara use the Limbo clone there if it was looking straight at Tobirama?


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 3, 2015)

Master Sephiroth said:


> As for the whole blitzing Blind Madara thing and Limbo Clone:
> 
> 1: It is possible to catch a Sage user off guard. It's happened to Naruto too. Sage perception is not perfect and cannot sense every little detail of what is going on.
> 
> 2: There's no proof as stated earlier that it was a Limbo clone that reacted to Tobirama. Why wouldn't Madara use the Limbo clone there if it was looking straight at Tobirama?



you dont catch a sage user who was already a brilliant sensor without it offguard by rushing him from  hundreds of meters away while in a several hundred meter tall avatar....


----------



## Master Sephiroth (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> you dont catch a sage user who was already a brilliant sensor without it offguard by rushing him from  hundreds of meters away while in a several hundred meter tall avatar....



Well, apparently you do, because it happened. Madara wasn't exactly fighting cautiously. He was being very reckless and didn't bother to try dodging or blocking anything. For example, he only used Susano'o to get out of being sealed and didn't even bother using any Mokuton. Do you think he intended to subdue all the Bijuus bare handed? 

It's happened to Naruto too.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> are u seriously saying budha has a cance of even tanking juubis super bijudama are u serious ice



 Most likely not, but BSM Naruto cannot tank it either, so that's irrelevant.



> juubi is on another level to the buudha...the buudha was neautralized by 12 sworddamas one normal juubidama is enough to destroy a freaking coutry..a super juubidama was far larger then the juubi ur wanking hashi to insane levels ice....



 That's a huge misconception. We see Buddha getting demolished prior to seeing those 12 Swordamas meaning it was much more than a dozen. Those Bijuudamas had to have been way bigger than anything 50% Kurama can shoot at once to be able to destroy over a thousand of Buddha's arms. That's just common sense. They had to have been bigger than Buddha's arms in order for that to happen.

 And a Bijuudama from BM Naruto cannot destroy a country. I don't know why this is debatable. Buddha can easily grab BM Naruto's Bijuudamas and restrain him before he even launches a super charged one. 



> if frog song was indescriminate it would have affected jirayia.. and frog call would have affected naruto but it didnt....



 Frog Song travels in Sound Waves which was the only reason it doesn't effect the SM users as they aren't within range to begin with, so you do have a point. However, they cannot guide the sound waves and never have been shown the capabilities to be able to do so unless you can show a scan for that. 

 Fact of the matter is, it's not hitting Hashirama, especially one who can outpace Kyuubisano and a Bijuudama. There's also the limitation that Ma and Pa outright stated it takes some time to prepare.



> frog song takes time to gather chakra naruto can instantly provide massive chakra do the math..



 Actually no. The reason why it takes time is because it takes some time to combine their voices into the right melody as stated here:

It's happened to Naruto too.



> frog song is a genjutsu that shuts down an opponents mind ...hashi is not breaking it...tobirama broke edo tensei control...theonly reason he was binded again was because of hashis cells and hashi was immune to the effect of his own chakra...stop wanking ice ur better then this,... hashi is helpless against frog song.



 Actually, Animal Path wasn't completely affected by Frog Song meaning against Hashirama, it shouldn't be an end game technique, but it's been proven that it takes some time to use meaning it's very ineffective. 

 But no, Hashi is not helpless against Frog Song. Hashi is a greater close and long range fighter. He can evade Kyuubisanoo while spamming Mokuton meaning he can easily get out of range of Frog Song without lacking his usual offensive power, so Frog Song is completely useless.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> That's a huge misconception. We see Buddha getting demolished prior to seeing those 12 Swordamas meaning it was much more than a dozen. Those Bijuudamas had to have been way bigger than anything 50% Kurama can shoot at once to be able to destroy over a thousand of Buddha's arms. That's just common sense. They had to have been bigger than Buddha's arms in order for that to happen.
> 
> And a Bijuudama from BM Naruto cannot destroy a country. I don't know why this is debatable. Buddha can easily grab BM Naruto's Bijuudamas and restrain him before he even launches a super charged one.


Actually, energy produced form BM Naruto's Bijudama's was 7+ teratons if not more. Energy produced from 100% Kurama at the valley of the end? Around 100 gigatons to 1.2 teratons.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Actually, energy produced form BM Naruto's Bijudama's was 7+ teratons if not more. Energy produced from 100% Kurama at the valley of the end? Around 100 gigatons to 1.2 teratons.



 This is based on what?

 If you're referring to a Supercharged Bijuudama, it's pointless because Naruto will not have time to gather that much chakra before he gets crushed.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> This is based on what?
> 
> If you're referring to a Supercharged Bijuudama, it's pointless because Naruto will not have time to gather that much chakra before he gets crushed.


...his very first Bijudama was a Supercharged one, NarutoX28, which he made near instantly. Remember that?

And based off of calculations from this Super Bijudama that Naruto contributed most of the energy towards. Creating a 100+ kilometer crater needs teratons of energy, with 7+ being the low end. High end I believe was 20.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ...his very first Bijudama was a Supercharged one, NarutoX28, which he made near instantly. Remember that?



 Simply implying he can create a Supercharged Bijuudama quicker than the 5 Bijuu combined.

 Remember when BM Naruto was incapable of using a Supercharged Bijuudama against the Juubi and instead, resorted to a bunch of weaker continuous Bijuudamas after a single panel of charging. Remember that? 

 But since BM Naruto has no feats of charging Bijuudamas as fast as Madara can, then Buddha will strike BM Naruto and restrain him before h supercharges one.



> And based off of calculations from this Super Bijudama that Naruto contributed most of the energy towards. Creating a 100+ kilometer crater needs teratons of energy, with 7+ being the low end. High end I believe was 20.



 It doesn't matter considering how long it would take to Supercharge a Bijuudama.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Simply implying he can create a Supercharged Bijuudama quicker than the 5 Bijuu combined.
> 
> Remember when BM Naruto was incapable of using a Supercharged Bijuudama against the Juubi and instead, resorted to a bunch of weaker continuous Bijuudamas after a single panel of charging. Remember that?
> 
> But since BM Naruto has no feats of charging Bijuudamas as fast as Madara can, then Buddha will strike BM Naruto and restrain him before h supercharges one.


Naruto used the Renzoku Bijudama in form of a strategy. They needed to spread out and get the Juubidama to one place to cover Kakashi's Kamui of himself and Killer Bee. He can create normal Bijudama's, as seen here while partially forming Kurama's Avatar/




> It doesn't matter considering how long it would take to Supercharge a Bijuudama.


Which is half a second? Less? Naruto can make them instantly while all Madara's stuck with is the standard kind.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 3, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Naruto used the Renzoku Bijudama in form of a strategy. They needed to spread out and get the Juubidama to one place to cover Kakashi's Kamui of himself and Killer Bee. He can create normal Bijudama's, as seen here while partially forming Kurama's Avatar/



 Except Naruto had multiple panels to charge up that Bijuudama.





> Which is half a second? Less? Naruto can make them instantly while all Madara's stuck with is the standard kind.



 Yet he hasn't shown the capabilities to spam Bijuudamas as fast even when BM Naruto used a string of weaker Bijuudamas.

 Madara, actually has to mold Kurama's chakra around his Susanoo Sword and do that for every single Bijuudama, meaning he's charging it up much quicker than BM Naruto can and Madara formed more of those Bijuudamas than BM Naruto has ever done.


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 3, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Except Naruto had multiple panels to charge up that Bijuudama.


Since that was part of the distraction, NarutoX28. If he can make Super Bijudama's instantly, he cna make normal Bijudama's instantly.






> Yet he hasn't shown the capabilities to spam Bijuudamas as fast even when BM Naruto used a string of weaker Bijuudamas.


He spams five in a plan to get Bee in position. There's no reason why he can't spam more.


> Madara, actually has to mold Kurama's chakra around his Susanoo Sword and do that for every single Bijuudama, meaning he's charging it up much quicker than BM Naruto can and Madara formed more of those Bijuudamas than BM Naruto has ever done.




So according to you, Naruto can't make standard Bijudama's even faster than he can his instant Super Bijudama's? What sense does that make?


----------



## Nikushimi (Mar 3, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Lol nice generalizations there
> 
> bm naruto is far faster then the kyuubi,managed to producefar stronger attacks then a controlled kyuubi in chou oodama bijudama tanked the juubis laser and can produce multiple bm clones that can spam frs that cleaved the juubis tails like butter...



That is still only with half the Kyuubi's power.



> and then you are ignoring that sasuke and naruto have far better synergy..



I'm not ignoring it; I qualified my statement by saying they could win with chakra sharing allowed.



> Bm naruto blitzed sage madara with his bm avatar who is far faster then hashirama..he had sage threat perception so would see naruto coming a mile away and was a sensor without it..
> .he reacted to tobiramas blinside ftg attack..



Hashirama has Sage Mode and never had any trouble keeping up with Madara otherwise... Madara is not faster than him at all.



> what are hashis counters to frogsong which is sped up with chakra cloaks while the frogs sit in kyuubi sussano?



Shinsuusenju them all to pulp, while disrupting the sound waves' propagation through the air with Bijuudama-swatting punches that are probably noisy as fuck and certainly destructive to the environment.



> a normal frs from bm naruto cut two of juubis tails!! let that sink in the juubi is as large as the wood budha and far more durable.. now a barrage of chou oodama rasenshuriken from bm clones backed by chou sword damas shred shinsensenju.. and before someone says chou sword damas arent possible sasuke can extend sussanos sword..
> 
> Link removed



Tbh I don't even remember that feat or which form of the Juubi it was. But one FRS from half the Kyuubi is not accomplishing what dozens of PS-bladed Bijuudama from the full Kyuubi could not. Shinsuusenju no-sells that shit and turns Naruto into a stain.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> are u seriously saying budha has a cance of even tanking juubis super bijudama are u serious ice
> 
> juubi is on another level to the buudha...the buudha was neautralized by 12 sworddamas one normal juubidama is enough to destroy a freaking coutry..a super juubidama was far larger then the juubi ur wanking hashi to insane levels ice....
> 
> ...



neutralized. lol i love ur fanfic. the budda took the 12 enhanced BD and kept on moving it wasnt even slightly damaged. the 1000 arms were but budda wasnt scratched. it picked up kyuubi. like its pet. all the while having stripped susanoo like a banana peel 

lol yes and ur hatered of a fictional character shows u dont got much goign for u. 

*again hashirama said he could divert a juubtio BD with just birth of trees. why on earth would hashirama by far strongest tech not be able to tank a juubi BD?this point is further emphaized by the fact that juubito felt the need to trap them in a barrier. *

jiriaya was fused to ma and pa very very dumb comparision. while they are attacking he is gathering chakra. when he is they are gathering chakra. ma and pa explained this already. what u are saying is like itachi catching himself in his genjutsu. 

again feats of ma and pa using naruto chakra to their advantage. ill wait 

yet hashi isnt helpless against EMS genjutsu. lol and am the one wanking. suuuure thing. This frog song u speak of is toads croaking. do note how jiraiya used it. he ran away and used pipe lines to echo the sounds. this isnt nearly as effective in an open battlefield. 

hasnt temari already countered sound waves with a simple futton

again this frog song woudl fuck over sasuke or is sasuke given immunity to it? just for the lolz. 

its the same frog song he and hashi would be hearing. 

not that 2 frogs croaking would be audible when hashirama is spamming giant techs. 

as for naruto avatar. say hello to wood dragon. that shit wont stay on the battle field all that long. naruto would have to keep reforming it. 

like i said naruto utterly failed to blitz madara through out their encounter. he isnt blitzing hashirama. unless u can prove madara has much more speed and reactions than hashirama. which would be odd, since hashirama had no trouble keeping up and surpassing madara


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

Is this still going on? SM Hashirama dominates.


----------



## Veracity (Mar 4, 2015)

I'll reply to you super after my vacation.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 4, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> That is still only with half the Kyuubi's power.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



madara could not draw the full power of kurama the most he could accomplish was making kurama make standard bijudama bm naruto made bijudama that was several times larger then all the bijuu combined..and what you are also ignoring is bm naruto is far faster and efficient then  kurama he was able to blitz sage madara while regular kurama couldnt tag hashirama..not to mention bm avatar tanked the juubis laser which overpowered 9 bijudama and vaporized a mountain range..

sm hashirama was getting outdone by edo madara in cqc and at vote could only stalemate ems madara in cqc..he is in no way faster then ems madara..give madara senjutsu and he is far above hashirama..

very visibly see the Massive Rasenshuriken's explosion in horizon

do u see the distance between the buudha and madara ya buudha cannot teleport next to the target to use his barrage he had to make up the distance and madara was actually idiotic enough to rush at him aswell...

bm naruto is much faster then hashirama or the buudha and can keep his distance...do you see madara shouting come hashirama from miles away and hashirama responding with im coming madara ya sound travelled from that distance frog song is a sound based genjutsu amped by senjutsu and is a long ranged technique im guessig its sound is superior to 2 normal people shouting at each other..hashirama will hear frog song if activated and if activated hashirama will fall to it..

who said anything about one frs he can make several bm clones who can use chou oodama rasenshuriken backed by chou sword damas by kyuubi sussano...shinsensenju is not no selling something that cleaved multiple juubi tails ..in a weaker form..i provided the panel look at it.
very visibly see the Massive Rasenshuriken's explosion in horizon
very visibly see the Massive Rasenshuriken's explosion in horizon
.the juubi is far more durable then the Buddha..


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> neutralized. lol i love ur fanfic. the budda took the 12 enhanced BD and kept on moving it wasnt even slightly damaged. the 1000 arms were but budda wasnt scratched. it picked up kyuubi. like its pet. all the while having stripped susanoo like a banana peel
> 
> lol yes and ur hatered of a fictional character shows u dont got much goign for u.
> 
> ...



ice uv gone over to the dark side...buudha is not tanking a juubidama plz be reasonable..


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 4, 2015)

Master Sephiroth said:


> Well, apparently you do, because it happened. Madara wasn't exactly fighting cautiously. He was being very reckless and didn't bother to try dodging or blocking anything. For example, he only used Susano'o to get out of being sealed and didn't even bother using any Mokuton. Do you think he intended to subdue all the Bijuus bare handed?
> 
> very visibly see the Massive Rasenshuriken's explosion in horizon



He was serious he was agitated shouted im going to put you on a leash..
have you maybe given thought to the possibility that madara could not react and bm naruto is actually a freaking fast character who can deflect 5 bijudama by just shunshining?To claim sage madara who can no sell surprise ftg attacks by tobirama from behind and surprise sm naruto while blind through sensing is ridiculous..naruto was able to sense everyone from a country away...be reasonable.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 4, 2015)

Sensors need to see what they are avoiding in order to avoid the attack 
Jiraiya explained this already 

Hashirama isn't getting blitz be reasonable . While facing madara naruto utterly failed to do so


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> you dont catch a sage user who was already a brilliant sensor without it offguard by rushing him from  hundreds of meters away while in a several hundred meter tall avatar....



Hmmm, but even skilled sensors are not always in "sensing" mode.

this explosion
this explosion
this explosion

Seemingly a sensor needs to change his chakra to sensing type and may not be able to react to all if distracted with a troublesome opponent. 

That and Madara himself admitted that he wasn't cautious anymore since he got Hashi's healing power and was not bothered about getting wounded anymore.
this explosion

Also Madara was unable to dodge Sasuke's attacks in SM as easily as SM Kabuto could implying perhaps that he still did not master all of the powers that SM includes. That or Naruto's, Kabuto's and Hashirama's SMs actually differ in some aspects. Hard to tell...


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 4, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Sensors need to see what they are avoiding in order to avoid the attack
> Jiraiya explained this already
> 
> Hashirama isn't getting blitz be reasonable . While facing madara naruto utterly failed to do so



Sage mode threat perception is not passive its far superior to simple sensing he was able to react to a blind side attack from tobiramas ftg that renders ur argument moot he did not see tobirama..

i never said hashirama is getting blitzed did i ...i said bm naruto is  much faster then hashirama thus can keep his distance from buudha ..


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 4, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Hmmm, but even skilled sensors are not always in "sensing" mode.
> 
> this explosion
> this explosion
> ...



sagemode threat perception isnt basic sensing its threat perception like spidermans sense..its always active case being madara reacting to tobiramas blind side ftg attack from behind ..

he admitted he wasnt cautious but after the bijuu beat his ass he felt his pride was hurt and got serious ...and shouted im going to put you on your leash where u belong ..why would madara let himself get his ass bitch slapped after that..


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 4, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Sage mode threat perception is not passive its far superior to simple sensing he was able to react to a blind side attack from tobiramas ftg that renders ur argument moot he did not see tobirama..
> 
> i never said hashirama is getting blitzed did i ...i said bm naruto is  much faster then hashirama thus can keep his distance from buudha ..



BM Naruto is not much faster than SM Hashirama. Madara not only sensed Tobirama thanks to Hashirama's Sage Mode - he physically dodged his attack with Hashirama's Sage Mode. He was fast enough to dodge Tobirama's attack. Base Madara is equal to base Hashirama in terms of physical stats. And Edo Tobirama could tag Juubito with FTG mark and later tag him several times, with a clone as well. Alive SM Hashirama is more than fast enough to compete with BM Naruto. And his mokuton techniques are too fast for BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar, with which Naruto couldnt avoid Madara's Wood Dragon. 

EMS Sasuke is not a factor here. 

SM Hashirama beats them both.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Mar 4, 2015)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Since that was part of the distraction, NarutoX28. If he can make Super Bijudama's instantly, he cna make normal Bijudama's instantly.



 Explain. The only reason he managed a Super Charged Bijuudama was because of additional help as well as the fact that he had multiple panels to charge it.





> He spams five in a plan to get Bee in position. There's no reason why he can't spam more.



 Any scans for this? All I see Bee and Kurama doing is trying to corner Juubi and spam both Bijuudamas at the Juubi. There is honestly no reason to not use more fire power if they could.



> So according to you, Naruto can't make standard Bijudama's even faster than he can his instant Super Bijudama's? What sense does that make?



 I don't know. It doesn't seem to be instant considering we've seen him Super charge a Bijuudama against the Juubi and that took quite a bit of time. We still haven't seen BM Naruto do anything in regards to spamming a dozen of Bijuudamas * combined * with Susanoo Swords in a single panel. I don't see anything that suggests BM Naruto has that kind of firepower. In all actuality, he can only pull off a small Bijuudama as fast as Sasuke can pull off a Susanoo arrow as shown against Juubito which isn't cutting it against Hashirama.

 But I dunno. It doesn't seem logical to Supercharge a Bijuudama instantly when there are many instances shown we he clearly could not. Not even BM Minato or BSM Naruto are capable of instantly charging a Chou Oodama Rasengan, so it seems ridiculous to me to assume Naruto is capable of Supercharging a Bijuudama instantaneously.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Explain. The only reason he managed a Super Charged Bijuudama was because of additional help as well as the fact that he had multiple panels to charge it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Neither BM Naruto, not BSM Naruto can create those super-big Bijuu Damas instantly. They need to charge them. SM Hashirama can easily use the charge time to suppress BM Naruto.

And EMS Sasuke is not a factor here.


----------



## ARGUS (Mar 5, 2015)

Chojo Kobetsu  travels the same speed as a PS-blade-TBB which was  fast enough  to travel the  entire sea in a matter of a  second, 

naruto is never charging a super TBB before chojo kobetsu pounds him to dirt, and even if he charges the TBB, it certainly wont be larger than SS to prevent it from grabbing it, and then slapping it back at his face


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Chojo Kobetsu  travels the same speed as a PS-blade-TBB which was  fast enough  to travel the  entire sea in a matter of a  second,
> 
> naruto is never charging a super TBB before chojo kobetsu pounds him to dirt, and even if he charges the TBB, it certainly wont be larger than SS to prevent it from grabbing it, and then slapping it back at his face



I dont think he needs Shinsuusenju here to win.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

what argus said. 
shame there are no polls would love to see how many people say hashirama win


----------



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Mar 5, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> Explain. The only reason he managed a Super Charged Bijuudama was because of additional help as well as the fact that he had multiple panels to charge it.


...additional help? Naruto's _first ever Bijudama was a Supercharged one!_ He did it instantly with no additional help! 






> Any scans for this? All I see Bee and Kurama doing is trying to corner Juubi and spam both Bijuudamas at the Juubi. There is honestly no reason to not use more fire power if they could.


Both of them spam Bijudama on either side to draw out the Juubi's counter then they move to get close together, making Obito and Madara think they are turtling to tank the attack Naruto tanks the attack and tosses Kakashi who had just Kamuied Bee in his Gyuki form then appears above the Juubi just so Kakashi can Kamui Bee right above Juubi's Rinne Sharingan in an attempt to blind it.

It was an entire plan to get Kakashi and Naruto's clone into position.


> I don't know. It doesn't seem to be instant considering we've seen him Super charge a Bijuudama against the Juubi and that took quite a bit of time. We still haven't seen BM Naruto do anything in regards to spamming a dozen of Bijuudamas * combined * with Susanoo Swords in a single panel. I don't see anything that suggests BM Naruto has that kind of firepower. In all actuality, he can only pull off a small Bijuudama as fast as Sasuke can pull off a Susanoo arrow as shown against Juubito which isn't cutting it against Hashirama.


I reiterate: first Bijudama Naruto _ever_ created was a Super Bijudama that he did *instantly*.

Naruto can spam Bijudama's, there's no reason why he can't spam 12 unless he's working in tandem with other people in a plan.


> But I dunno. It doesn't seem logical to Supercharge a Bijuudama instantly when there are many instances shown we he clearly could not. Not even BM Minato or BSM Naruto are capable of instantly charging a Chou Oodama Rasengan, so it seems ridiculous to me to assume Naruto is capable of Supercharging a Bijuudama instantaneously.


SINCE HE DID IT HIS FIRST APPEARANCE USING IT! Naruto can supercharge Bijudama instantly. His very first feat was doing it. He can create normal Bijudama's instantly.


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

> I reiterate: first Bijudama Naruto ever created was a Super Bijudama that he did instantly.
> 
> Naruto can spam Bijudama's, there's no reason why he can't spam 12 unless he's working in tandem with other people in a plan.



Facepalm. 

It is *OBVIOUS* in the scan you put there that he didnt make that Super Bijuudama instantly. 

And 12 Bijuu Damas can be caught by Shinsuusenju without any problem. You forget about PS blades in those Bijuu Damas.

Also, Edo Madara could *easily* suppress BM Naruto's Kurama Avatar. SM Hashirama, who is much faster than Edo Madara, can do that almost effortlessly. 

SM Hashirama can aither pin down Kurama Avatar with Great Gates, or suppress that avatar with Wood Dragon. 



> SINCE HE DID IT HIS FIRST APPEARANCE USING IT! Naruto can supercharge Bijudama instantly. His very first feat was doing it. He can create normal Bijudama's instantly.



Normal Bijuu Damas wont do anything to Hashirama.

SM Hashirama beats both BM Naruto and EMS Sasuke.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

well gotta agree with troll SSM12. 
naruto can create a super charged dama instantly 

though it doesnt help here. sasuke could be caught in the cross fire. i think him teaming up with sasuke reduces his little chances of winning


----------



## StarWanderer (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> well gotta agree with troll SSM12.
> naruto can create a super charged dama instantly
> 
> though it doesnt help here. sasuke could be caught in the cross fire. i think him teaming up with sasuke reduces his little chances of winning



Yeah, it was in an instant. Thats why Hachibi could think about the amount of chakra Naruto is planning to use, Killer Bee could saiy about Naruto's training and that this time its for real... Maybe Hachibi's thoughts and Killer Bee's words were instant as well?


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Chojo Kobetsu  travels the same speed as a PS-blade-TBB which was  fast enough  to travel the  entire sea in a matter of a  second,
> 
> naruto is never charging a super TBB before chojo kobetsu pounds him to dirt, and even if he charges the TBB, it certainly wont be larger than SS to prevent it from grabbing it, and then slapping it back at his face



how da hell did you figure out that chojo kobetsu is the same speed as a bijudama?it was just a continuous barrage that hit the sworddamas how did u calculate its speed....

second that was not a freakin sea have u seen a sea....that was barely a few miles of water...
second are bijudamas supposed to be fast infront of bm narutos speed ...he intercepted 5 bijudama while they were fired point blank from a distance away and deflected them with pure shunshin...
(3)
(3)


bm naruto is much faster then buudha or hashirama and is more then capable of keeping distance from the buudha he has absoluteley  zero reason to get close to buudha unlike madaras idiotic charge towards it..

chojo kobetsu is  not a long ranged technique , a projectile or a space time technique the buudha has to get into cqc range to pummel the target..
(3)

do you see the distance kyuubi sussano and buudha covered the budha did not blitz kyuubi sussano madara being the battlecrazy idiot he is rushed shinsensenju to clash with it..even in the panel kyuubi sussano covered more distance then the buudha so dont portray the buudha as some kind of god damn speed demon..bm naruto is more then capable of keeping distance from it..




sm hashirama was getting outdone by edo madara in cqc and at vote could only stalemate ems madara in cqc..he is in no way faster then ems madara..give madara senjutsu and he is far above hashirama in speed and reactions bm naruto blitzed sage madara with his bm avatar before he could react and he is a sage who was already a brilliant sensor he would have percieved naruto coming easily..
(3)

this isnt just bm naruto this is bm naruto and ems sasuke ems sasuke is capable of making ps on his own and can cover bm to form kyuubi sussano..

naruto can almost instantly charge a superbijudama larger then all the bijuu combined..
(3)
sasuke can add blade making a chou sword dama..and before people go thats impossible sasuke is more then capable of extending sussano swords to sizes much latger then the sussano itself..
(3)

One frs from bm naruto cleaved multiple juubi tails..he can make several bm clones who can use chou oodama rasenshuriken backed by chou sword damas by kyuubi sussano...shinsensenju is not no selling something that cleaved multiple juubi tails ..in a weaker form..i provided the panel look at it.
(3)
(3)
.the juubi is far more durable then the Buddha..

a barrage of chou sword damas backed by bm chou oodama rasenshuriken shreds shinsensju this firepower is far superior to simple sword damas used at vote..

Naruto can also summon ma and pa who can prep frog song in kyuubisussano..do you see madara shouting come hashirama from miles away and hashirama responding with im coming madara ya sound travelled from that distance frog song is a sound based genjutsu amped by senjutsu and is a long ranged technique im guessig its sound is superior to 2 normal people shouting at each other..hashirama will hear frog song if activated and if activated hashirama will fall to it..


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

i agree with sabre. naruto has no reason to get close to budda. 

however i laughably disagree with the fact that you can say Budda is a short range technique and needs to get in cqc range

what is cqc to a titanic creature like budda is long range to most. i hope you know that. 

if naruto keeps his distance from budda, hashirama sends mokujin which btw is on budda head towards naruto 

a BD shot at a distance is easier to avoid than one shot at a closer range just so u noe

sasuke PS has no feats to suggest its as strong as madaras. we have already seen an MS or EMS user experience affects how they use their ablities. 

sasuke displayed the same traits when using rinnegan. why imply his PS that he just acquired would be as strong as madaras which he had for years ??

anyone remember the first time kakashi used kamui? deidara could avoid it. doubt he coudl avoid it against war arc kakashi.


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sasuke PS has no feats to suggest its as strong as madaras. we have already seen an MS or EMS user experience affects how they use their ablities.
> 
> sasuke displayed the same traits when using rinnegan. why imply his PS that he just acquired would be as strong as madaras which he had for years ??
> 
> anyone remember the first time kakashi used kamui? deidara could avoid it. doubt he coudl avoid it against war arc kakashi.



Its true that Sasuke's EMS PS got no individual feats but in terms of physical power(excluding super bijuudamas) it wouldn't be strange if it was at least as strong as BM Naruto's avatar. 

After all if Sasuke's EMS PS is inferior even to a regular BM then how could he match a RSM enhanced BM? It makes no sense for Sasuke's PS to get such a huge boost in comparison to Naruto's BM. Also an inferior PS to Madara's would hardly be of much help against Juubito when the latter easily handled both BSM Naruto and V3 CS Susanoo(and could handle an onslaught from BSM Naruto and BM Minato).

As for Kamui it is strangely rather incompetent when used against living opponents unlike when used on objects. It never killed anyone and when Kakashi used it against GM, Obito who was distracted could still react in time to cancel it despite it already starting to warp GM head.
(3)

Guess restriction for plot reasons.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Its true that Sasuke's EMS PS got no individual feats but in terms of physical power(excluding super bijuudamas) it wouldn't be strange if it was at least as strong as BM Naruto's avatar.
> 
> After all if Sasuke's EMS PS is inferior even to a regular BM then how could he match a RSM enhanced BM? It makes no sense for Sasuke's PS to get such a huge boost in comparison to Naruto's BM. Also an inferior PS to Madara's would hardly be of much help against Juubito when the latter easily handled both BSM Naruto and V3 CS Susanoo(and could handle an onslaught from BSM Naruto and BM Minato).
> 
> ...



sorry when did sasuke PS overpower a BD? am really confused. do u mean after he got the upgrade from SoP??? not the same sasuke here. 

sasuke PS isnt inferior ur not getting my point at all. sasuke usage of PS is inferior to madara because sasuke got less experience using it. this holds true for every single dojutsu related technique. 

Again u are being dense. not an inferior PS,an inferior usage of PS. 

that last post makes me sad. utter BS. the only reason it looked average when first used was because kakashi *had no experience with the technique*

the rest of ur examples will be tackled by a kakashi fan. i dont have time to debate them


----------



## Arles Celes (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry when did sasuke PS overpower a BD? am really confused. do u mean after he got the upgrade from SoP??? not the same sasuke here.
> 
> sasuke PS isnt inferior ur not getting my point at all. sasuke usage of PS is inferior to madara because sasuke got less experience using it. this holds true for every single dojutsu related technique.
> 
> ...



But how exactly it is inferior then? In what terms? I said that EXCLUDING bijuudamas it wouldn't be strange if it was equal physically to BM Naruto. That said if we count Sasuke's Rinnegan enhanced PS dealing with a RSM enhanced BM bijuudama it wouldn't be surprising if he could deal with a normal BM bijuudama through a normal PS. Unless his PS got a far greater boost than Naruto's BM which makes no sense.

How exactly did Madara use his PS more skillfully? I agree that Sasuke's EMS PS lacks singular feats but Madara's PS did not have any specific abilities that Sasuke's needed to show later. I would agree with how Sasuke needed to improve his Susanoo gradually when having MS and going through many stages of it. But PS does not evolve as a regular Susanoo does. It makes sense with the Rinnegan itself which needs more mastery to unlock its jutsus in the first place.

The only thing that really comes to my mind is the size but even Rinnegan Sasuke was ever able to make his PS so big. I doubt that his Six path chakra enhanced PS is inferior to Madara's PS though.

As for Kakashi what I meant is that he never for some reason was able to kill any living opponent. Not just against Deidara. He decided not to use it against Kakuzu and did not use it to rip off Deva's or Asura's head either. He failed to rip off GM head TWICE and was prevented from doing the same to Juubi(if he could that is). What I mean is that seemingly PLOT never allowed Kakashi to rip off his opponent head. Given how he can teleport objects in an instant he should be able to rip heads off with ease. Deva being perhaps the biggest example since he could at that time teleport fast moving objects right away and with great accuracy. Its just like how Amaterasu immediately swallows fodders but takes forever to consume any named character like...even Karin.


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

PS Susanoo is a giant sword avatar . Now wouldn't u say mifune is more skilled with a sword than his fodder samurai . Despite them knowing the same techniques ? Why would PS be any different 

Any technique would be stronger when used by a more experienced used 

Sm naruto war arc due to having improved his Sm abilities can change quicker launch more than 2 FRS
And even use COFRS. That's due to experience 

Now obviously an experienced PS user would be able to draw out more of its power 

If u don't get that I give up . The manga is full of it 

Gai being able to use AK in 6th gate yet lee didn't show the ability to do so 
 Even the number of gates they can open ETC
And how long they can open them for


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i agree with sabre. naruto has no reason to get close to budda.
> 
> however i laughably disagree with the fact that you can say Budda is a short range technique and needs to get in cqc range
> 
> ...



by cqc i meant cqc range for giant powerranger megazords

if naruto keeps his distance  and hashirama sends mokujin it gets obliterated it and wood dragon were in canon destroyed by a bijudama explosion a sword dama from kyuubi sussano ends it.. ok lets assume sasukes ps is weaker it will still have ps sword which he can extend in canon to much larger sizes all he needs to do is cover bm to provide defense and to combine his sword with bijudamas to form sword damas the main firepower is naruto..


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> by cqc i meant cqc range for giant powerranger megazords
> 
> if naruto keeps his distance  and hashirama sends mokujin it gets obliterated it and wood dragon were in canon destroyed by a bijudama explosion a sword dama from kyuubi sussano ends it.. ok lets assume sasukes ps is weaker it will still have ps sword which he can extend in canon to much larger sizes all he needs to do is cover bm to provide defense and to combine his sword with bijudamas to form sword damas the main firepower is naruto..





yes the main fire power is naruto who btw would be focused on mainly. his avatar which allows him to use BD again in canon was trolled by wood dragon. 

why didnt naruto just blitz and smash madara??? naruto had no reason to hold back. so explain that. 

why cant hashirama do the same?

as for naruto keeping his distance. hashirama spams god gates which kept juubi level 3 down. juubi >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>BSM naruto. if they can keep juubi down they will keep naruto down.  now naruto can escape through undoing his avatar. which again is the whole point. no avatar no BD. his god gates also prevent any kyususanoo from fighting as they would have to go their separate ways to escape the god gates after its slammed down on the avatar. 


As for sasuke he basically is an assist if hashirama decides to be mean he kills him by focusing on him. PS is entirely nothing to budda.

do remember if mokujin touches naruto avatar head he can basically seal naruto chakra. he did after all put kyuubi to sleep with a tap.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> mokujin wasnt destroyed by kyuubi BD. what manga are u reading. hashirama hid in mokujin head to save himself from the explosion.
> 
> yes the main fire power is naruto who btw would be focused on mainly. his avatar which allows him to use BD again in canon was trolled by wood dragon.
> 
> ...



mokujin and wood dragon was destroyed by a bijudama hashirama hid a bunker jutsu..hobi no jutsu..


naruto did not know of wood dragons ability and rushed for a cqc rumble when he could have easily destroyed  it with a bijudama hell he destroyed it with a mere shunshin in canon..naruto wanted to overwhelm madaras technique in his anger..he didnt aim at madara there.. we saw what happens when he aimed at madara..he blitzed sage madara who had brilliant sensing before and had sage mode threat perception on top so blindside arguments are laughable..

juubi was a flailing out of control animal who had no control over himself ...catching it  with the gates isnt some great feat ..bm naruto is far faster and has sensing he can evade the gates...and also did you forget sasuke is there to coat bm avatar with perfect sussano making the gates suppression moot..the purpose of kyuubi sussano was precisely this to negate suppresion otherwise he would have used gates against madara..

stop downplaying ps it is an extremely usefull and powerfull technique and needed massive firepower to overcome and its not alone when combined with bm is a potent force...super sword damas are beyond what shinsensenju can handle especially when backed by bm enhanced cofrs that in a much weaker form cleaved multiple juubi tails..


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> mokujin and wood dragon was destroyed by a bijudama hashirama hid a bunker jutsu..hobi no jutsu..
> 
> 
> naruto did not know of wood dragons ability and rushed for a cqc rumble when he could have easily destroyed  it with a bijudama hell he destroyed it with a mere shunshin in canon..naruto wanted to overwhelm madaras technique in his anger..he didnt aim at madara there.. we saw what happens when he aimed at madara..he blitzed sage madara who had brilliant sensing before and had sage mode threat perception on top so blindside arguments are laughable..
> ...



i must not have read the OP but does naruto have knowledge of wood dragon in this battle?
sensors cant avoid what they cant see. 

i love ur example. u know the one where he bltiz madara who wasnt looking at him. why didnt he get serious earlier. he could have bltiz madara when madara was looking at him if he were capable of it. however he only managed to when madara had his back turned. 

jiraiya already explained a sensor can only avoid attacks they can see. 

however he surprise attacked a madara. who was fighting 7 other bijuu. big whoop 

the god gates can supress susanoo why cant they? 

not downplaying but any idiot would tell u budda>>>>>>>>PS. do start a poll if u believe the 2 are remotely comparable. 

budda stripped susanoo of kyuubi like it was a banana peel. dont hype such when compared to budda


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> i must not have read the OP but does naruto have knowledge of wood dragon in this battle?
> sensors cant avoid what they cant see.
> 
> i love ur example. u know the one where he bltiz madara who wasnt looking at him. why didnt he get serious earlier. he could have bltiz madara when madara was looking at him if he were capable of it. however he only managed to when madara had his back turned.
> ...



You were saying..
(3)

good sensors dont need to see an attack. to avoid it.. madara was blind no eyes!! and he fought sage naruto like had a pair..he was a brilliant sensor who could detect hashirama from miles away..then he got sage mode that has active threat perception that is active not passive and is  far superior to passive sensing..you really think madara couldnt sense something even sasuke sensed a country away kyuubis chakra thats plain unreasonable it wasnt even some sneak attack he freaking bum rushed sage madara jolting around in a giant multi story bm avatar!! how can you even claim he was blindsided ..the same madara reacted to a blindside ftg attack from tobirama !!

the gates cannot supress ps what are u talking about.. the very reason madara put perfect sussano on kyuubi was to counter the suppression ..why didnt hashirama use the gates against edo madara or kyuubi sussano that would have been laughably easy right?

I am the last person to hype ps but you are downplayig it and why do you always take one thing in the argument and leave the other this isnt ps its kyuubi sussano with bm naruto!


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> You were saying..
> (3)



so explain why naruto could not blitz madara when madara was looking at him. 



> good sensors dont need to see an attack. to avoid it.. madara was blind no eyes!! and he fought sage naruto like had a pair..he was a brilliant sensor who could detect hashirama from miles away..then he got sage mode that has active threat perception that is active not passive and is  far superior to passive sensing..you really think madara couldnt sense something even sasuke sensed a country away kyuubis chakra thats plain unreasonable it wasnt even some sneak attack he freaking bum rushed sage madara jolting around in a giant multi story bm avatar!! how can you even claim he was blindsided ..the same madara reacted to a blindside ftg attack from tobirama !!



yet he utterly failed to blitz ET madara when madara was looking at him.  i guess naruto had feelings for madara. 



> the gates cannot supress ps what are u talking about.. the very reason madara put perfect sussano on kyuubi was to counter the suppression ..why didnt hashirama use the gates against edo madara or kyuubi sussano that would have been laughably easy right?



read the god gates technique please before talking. they are not for sealing chakra they are for restraining a target. 



> I am the last person to hype ps but you are downplayig it and why do you always take one thing in the argument and leave the other this isnt ps its kyuubi sussano with bm naruto!



so at least u admit u got some pointless anti uchiha bias then. . 

i am not downplaying it. budda defeated kyuubi and susanoo. susanoo on its own could not stand up to budda. so yes budda>>>>>>>>PS. thats hardly downplaying it. susanoo on its own gets laughbly beaten by budda. considering mokujin can compete with PS. PS is said to be as strong as a bijuu. and mokujin is compared to kyuubi in strength. clearly budda outclassed both kyuubi and susanoo. so how on earth am i downplaying it. 

Ei speed is impressive for example but woudlnt help him much against obito. does that mean am downplaying Ei speed?
yes it is kyuubi susanoo. i dont get why u have to say with Bm naruto. thats obvious by the its kyuubi susanoo

which wont be kyuubi susanoo if the god gates drop on them. forcing them to leave their avatars.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> so explain why naruto could not blitz madara when madara was looking at him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Did he or did he not smash sage madara with bm avatar ?? he did  ok i provided you with a panel of muu avoiding a blindside attack from kcm naruto with basic sensing madara could fight sm naruto blind through his sensing then madara got sage mode that is far superior to sensing has active threat perception like spider sense and naruto fraking rushed him in a multi story avatar how can a skilled ninja not hear a multiple story tall beast running at it???

Madara sensed and reacted to a blindside attack from an ftg user!!!!! tobirama how can you claim he was blindsided plz explain !!

the gates are a mokuton suppresing technique specifically designed to suppress jinchuriki and bijuu hashirama stated this against obito m naruto is more then fast enough to avoid the gates and the ps coating will allow them to pull themselves out of the gates without the suppression..

if they gates were strong enough to hold down ps without suppression why didnt hashirama use it against edo madara or kyuubi sussano??? he could have avoided killing his best friend and would have been able to help the alliance..


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 5, 2015)

> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > Did he or did he not smash sage madara with bm avatar ?? he did  ok i provided you with a panel of muu avoiding a blindside attack from kcm naruto with basic sensing madara could fight sm naruto blind through his sensing then madara got sage mode that is far superior to sensing has active threat perception like spider sense and naruto fraking rushed him in a multi story avatar how can a skilled ninja not hear a multiple story tall beast running at it???
> ...


----------



## pluuuuffff (Mar 5, 2015)

Hashirama stomps on them.

Hashirama's level it's too much for this guys here. Not even Madara had a chance.


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 5, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> > so why didnt naruto blitz ET madara looking at him. very simple question. answer it please.
> >
> >
> >
> ...


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > Did you even read the fight against madara,..
> ...


----------



## sabre320 (Mar 6, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sabre320 said:
> 
> 
> > so in short naruto could only blitz madara when madara was distracted by fighting 7 other opponents. ok i understand. sensor or not you arent immune to suprise attacks. Ask Ma and Pa.
> ...


----------



## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> Icegaze said:
> 
> 
> > so in short you ignored all of the panels,feats and arguments and fell back to the blitz argument even though i never stated bm naruto was going to blitz hashirama..you ignored the chou sword damas chou oodama frs from bm clones and in the end fell back to lol nice panels...
> ...


----------

