# Rank all members of the Akatsuki



## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Simple, from strongest to weakest. By all members I even mean former ones, dead ones, and also Orochimaru. This also should include Nagato in that case. Feel free to give your reasons as well.

I'll start with mine, which I know is going to get completely SHIT on lol.

*1.* Nagato 
*2. *Obito 
*3.* Itachi
*4.* Six paths of Pain Just think he had this flowchart style that he had to stick to, I truly think Itachi was more of a threat.
*5. *Orochimaru (Yeah I put him above all those guys down there, feel like with both arms he surpasses them.)
*6.* Kisame
*7.* Sasori To high? Maybe, not sure. I feel like he was super talented and just had a bad matchup to deal with.
*8.* Konan I am not entirely sure about her, I don't want her this low, but it seems like I can't put her higher, maybe higher than Sasori, but Kisame and Orochimaru? I can't do it. Maybe someone else can place her better,
*9.* Deidara.
*10.* Kakuzu again didn't want to put him this low, feel like he and Deidara are close in strength.
*11.* Hidan OP ritual, given nobody knows about it. Once it's known, he's easily the weakest member and I don't even give it a second thought.


Alright, lets see what people think.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 6, 2015)

This has been done a million times before.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

True, but lately? People could easily change their minds. Tons of fights have been done to death as well, so whats the big deal?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2015)

1 - Itachi(healthy) / Nagato(no mobility)
2- Pain
3 - Obito (pre war arc)
4 - Deidara / Oro (no no arms bullshit)
5 - Kisame / (certain amount of chakra absorbed)
6 - Sasori / Kakuzu
7 - Hidan
8- Konan (no prep)
9 - Zetsu (pre-retcon)


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## Matty (Oct 6, 2015)

Been done many times.

1. Obito/Nagato
2. Itachi
3 Sasori
4 Kisame
5 Kakuzu
6 Deidara
7 Konan
8 Hidan
9 Zetsu

If we include Orochimaru he is a slot above Sasori but below Itachi


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> 1 - Itachi(healthy) / Nagato(no mobility)
> 2 - Nagato / Itachi
> 3 - Pain
> 4 - Obito (pre war arc)
> ...



I forgot zetsu LOL, gotta edit him in. You think Pain>Obito? Wow. I mean he's no slouch but Obito?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 6, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> I forgot zetsu LOL, gotta edit him in. You think Pain>Obito? Wow. I mean he's no slouch but Obito?



Pre War arc Obito isn't that impressive in my book. Not talking match-up wise but Pain was decisively stronger than him.


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Pre War arc Obito isn't that impressive in my book. Not talking match-up wise but Pain was decisively stronger than him.



I guess based on overall threat you're probably right, he had the one hax technique that was unusual and difficult to figure out. But when you really consider everything else he has, I can see why you place Pain above him.


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## Kai (Oct 6, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Matty (Oct 6, 2015)

Pre war as in what? He was a beast with Kamui by the time he was 14 and on Minato's level. As an adult in the Akatsuki he was by far more impressive than pein. Him and Nagato are equal. But the limitations of pein is what makes him stronger


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## Ghoztly (Oct 6, 2015)

I always struggle to find a place for Konan. Also, it was kind of annoying how Kishi didn't give Orochimaru a proper full on battle.

I can see why people would consider Pain>Obito, I guess I just can't myself.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 6, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> True, but lately? People could easily change their minds. Tons of fights have been done to death as well, so whats the big deal?


Opinions never change out here.


as for my own:
1. Pain
2. Obito
3. Itachi
4. Kisame
5. Orochimaru
6. Sasori
7. Kakuzo
8. Deidara
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu


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## wooly Eullerex (Oct 6, 2015)

Nagato
Kabuto
Itachi
0rochimaru
Sasori
Kisame
Deidara
Konan
Kakuzu
Zetsu
Suigetsu
Hidan
Juugo


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## Matty (Oct 6, 2015)

I always feel that it is more tier based:

Nagato/Obito/ Itachi being on top tier with Itachi being a bit below both then Sasori/Kisame after a decent gap between them and Itachi and then a relatively large gap to Deidara/Kakuzu and a huge gap to Konan/Hidan

Just my opinion

I am biased to Sasori but feats wise and overall power and hype he is easily above anyone in the lower tiers. Same with Kisame


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## ARGUS (Oct 6, 2015)

1. Rinnegan Obito  
2. Nagato 
3. Pein 
4. Tobi 
5. Itachi - (Edo Itachi would be either at 3 or 4) 
6. Kisame 
7. Orochimaru 
8. Deidara 
9. Kakuzu 
10. Sasori 
11. Konan 
12. Hidan 
13. Zetsu


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 6, 2015)

ARGUS got it right.


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## Matty (Oct 6, 2015)

Kisame is not above Orochimaru nor is Deidara above Sasori. Sorry guys


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## ARGUS (Oct 6, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Kisame is not above Orochimaru nor is Deidara above Sasori. Sorry guys



His feats displayed during the kage summitt and pre war trump everything that orochimaru has done 
and NO, edo tensei is not included 
forming giant ass water dome and a huge chakra absorbing shark, as well as regen and absorption puts him at a higher pedestal 

as for deidara being above sasori, well his flight speed alone is fast enough to comfortably evade everything sasori dishes out especially when he was dancing around gaaras sand like nothing (something of a far larger scale than sasoris attacks) 
his firepower trumps all of sasoris puppets and defenses, so C3 solos 

he is superior  to sasori overall, and ill take whats shown over whats implied 



DaVizWiz said:


> ARGUS got it right.



thanks man


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## Matty (Oct 6, 2015)

Let's just forget Deidara claims inferiority to Sasori... Gaara's sand was blocking his explosions. Iron sand she beat sufficient enough for defense while his Satetsu can reach Deidara's flying height. Deidara doesn't win, he might have some of the most powerful explosions and techniques in the akatsuki but he is not above Sasori. He is Kakuzu's equal more likely.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 6, 2015)

When he claims something that is later proven false... the claim is thrown out of the window. 

Sasori can't even stop C1 4-winged birds who fly around his defenses and blow up in his face. Gaara needed to use his gourd sand to protect against them, which Deidara stated was more durable and fast compared to his normal sand: 

_that he was already throwing at Deidara in boatloads_, yet the birds got around them and blew up right next to him. 

Sasori's sand isn't faster than Gaara's, it's not more durable than Gaara's, which is inflated with all materials of the earth like diamond, titanium, which are all more resistant than iron, and he cannot shape/guard as quickly as Gaara can with his sand. 

The shaped iron sand was so slow Sakura was beginning to predict it's movements, and there's no proof that Sasori has any chance at dissembling it, and creating a full sphere barrier around himself to protect himself from Deidara's high-speed clay attacks fast enough- not that there's any proof that that would save him against multiple C2 pigs.

Early PT.2 Sakura's punches were sending the iron sand constructs back, that wouldn't even remotely be the case with Gaara's sand, especially the volume of it he used to block C3. The force explosion of C3, which should be _considerably greater_ than Sakura's punch, would throw Sasori's puppet around that iron ball like a pin ball crushing his puppet body assuming the iron itself isn't completely blown apart considering he can't make even a tenth of the sand that Gaara used to block C3 with and iron isn't exactly the strongest metal, it can be completely wrecked by significantly weaker explosions.


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## Bonly (Oct 6, 2015)

Orochi
Obito
Nagato
Itachi
Orochi
Sasori
Kisame/Konan
Kakuzu
Deidara
Hidan


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Oct 7, 2015)

They are Akatsuki level.


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## Vice (Oct 7, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Sasori
Kisame
Kakuzu
Deidara
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

In terms of 1v1 high level combat, I'd say:

*1. Itachi * (Healthy)
When healthy and at his peak, IMO the single deadliest individual.

*2. Obito*
Izanagi makes him especially dangerous. (Izanami checks.)

*3. Nagato *
He was crippled and relied on Pain as a proxy. 

*4. Itachi* (Sick)
Sick Itachi was still crazy strong, but below the other dojutsu users at this point.

*5. Deidara*
Captured Gaara, and has crazy clone jutsu and clone feint skills.

*6. Kisame*
Resistant to ninjutsu, genjutsu, and taijutsu. Has huge techniques.

*7. Orochimaru*
I'd put Orochimaru here when he was in Akatsuki (continued growing.)

*8. Sasori*
Very deadly, not much gap between him and the three above him.

*9. Kakuzu*
Basically the same as Sasori, very hyped.

*10. Konan*
I'd put her here, but with prep, she's an entirely different beast. 

*11. Hidan*
The runt of Aakatsuki. Kishimoto intended to hive him more, but alas.

*12. Zetsu*
The scout/utility of Akatsuki. Not so much for head-on battles.


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## Matty (Oct 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> When he claims something that is later proven false... the claim is thrown out of the window.
> 
> Sasori can't even stop C1 4-winged birds who fly around his defenses and blow up in his face. Gaara needed to use his gourd sand to protect against them, which Deidara stated was more durable and fast compared to his normal sand:
> 
> ...




When is this ever proven false? Because you think C4 is the most destructive, and his bombs are big?'

Ok his gourd has nothing to do with Satetsu since it is the most powerful sand shown in Manga, that didn't even get dented by a full power Sakura punch.

You keep bring up the birds but it doesn't even matter, Satetsu speed is faster than gaara's sand. It had attacks that were making Sonic Booms. Your whole assumption is Deidara starts airborne which is the biggest advantage you can give him because without it Sasori literally no difs him.

There is no way you are telling me Gaara's sand is more dense and protective than Iron sand. Not only is Iron sand "The most feared wapon in Suna" and now drenched in poison, it also has magnetic capabilities to make it faster than gaara's sand which is just him manipulating it. Sasori's sand is literally being repelled by earths magnetism causing sonic booms.

Sakura predicted it's movements after she nearly died 5 times and never dodged it, she just had the strength to punch it and as I said before it wasn't even dented.

And not even Iron Sand, what is Deidara going to do when 100 puppets are attacking him from every angle while he is on the bird, or when a Satetsu Kaihou comes raining down in all directions. Nothing


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## Vice (Oct 7, 2015)

I like how there's an insistence on adding a "healthy" fanfiction version of Itachi who's somehow far more impressive than his Edo counterpart, yet there is no reason to include a "healthy" Nagato that can walk. 

Like there's always got to be an asterisk for Itachi because we can't just accept that some people are stronger than him, we always have to point out that he was sick and that there's this other version of him out there that couldn't possibly exist in the canon story that just shits on everyone, yet the only people who ever pretends this is realistic are his fanboys.


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## Ersa (Oct 7, 2015)

Kakuzu is pretty overrated for Wind Arc Naruto's whipping boy.

*Akatsuki God Tier*
Rinnegan Obito
Nagato 
Edo Itachi

*Akatsuki Top Tier*
Sick Itachi

*Akatsuki High Tier*
Orochimaru
Kisame
Sasori
Deidara
Konan

*Akatsuki Trash Tier*
Kakuzu
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Ghoztly (Oct 7, 2015)

Vice said:


> I like how there's an insistence on adding a "healthy" fanfiction version of Itachi who's somehow far more impressive than his Edo counterpart, yet there is no reason to include a "healthy" Nagato that can walk.
> 
> Like there's always got to be an asterisk for Itachi because we can't just accept that some people are stronger than him, we always have to point out that he was sick and that there's this other version of him out there that couldn't possibly exist in the canon story that just shits on everyone, yet the only people who ever pretends this is realistic are his fanboys.



Might be fanboys but you sure do sound like a hater.

Pretty sure he wasn't sick at the time of the massacre, you make it sound like he was always sick. The fact is, he got sick, it hindered his stamina and it was never really explained in full detail what it did to him. 

The fanboys didn't make Itachi OP, Kishimoto did, he put him there, not the fans. luckily for you he got nerfed, so be happy.

Back to the topic. I guess pre-Rinnegan Pain would be above MS Obito, he really only had one hax technique and although he wasn't entirely inept  I doubt he had the arsenal Pain did.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Vice said:


> I like how there's an insistence on adding a "healthy" fanfiction version of Itachi



Oh my god, dude. Zetsu said Itachi against Sasuke was much weaker than usual. Deal with it bro.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Vice said:


> I like how there's an insistence on adding a "healthy" fanfiction version of Itachi who's somehow far more impressive than his Edo counterpart, yet there is no reason to include a "healthy" Nagato that can walk.
> 
> Like there's always got to be an asterisk for Itachi because we can't just accept that some people are stronger than him, we always have to point out that he was sick and that there's this other version of him out there that couldn't possibly exist in the canon story that just shits on everyone, yet the only people who ever pretends this is realistic are his fanboys.



I guess this is directed at me. 

Healthy Itachi is Edo Itachi without Edo immortality. 
You can at least say that we've seen how Itachi can perform when a terminal disease isn't pulling his leg.
Can't say the same thing about "mobile" Nagato, though.

I mean yes, we've seen a mobile one in the manga, who got his shit torn apart by Hanzo. He was young and relatively weak. Besides, mobility isn't such a big deal for Nagato anyways.


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

^
Except that isn't true.
A "healthy" version of itachi would still be affected by MS side effects and still has finite chakra pool.
Edo itachi has infinitely regenerating chakra and sufferes no drawbacks from his MS.

Edo itachi > healthy itachi > sick itachi

considering edo itachi could not take nagato on by himself its nonsensical to put any version of itachi above nagato.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> Except that isn't true.
> A "healthy" version of itachi would still be affected by MS side effects and still has finite chakra pool.
> Edo itachi has infinitely regenerating chakra and sufferes no drawbacks from his MS.



Edo also has undeniable negative and weakening aspects that we've seen in numerous individuals. Almost all Edos have inferior showings to their living counterparts, the exceptions being when living counterparts themselves were severely weakened or jobbing.​


Deer Lord said:


> considering edo itachi could not take nagato on by himself its nonsensical to put any version of itachi above nagato.



I wouldn't say this is true, as Edo Itachi cut off Nagato's arms twice before Nagato used Chibaku Tensei. Nagato was just forced to use his ultimate technique earlier than Itachi because he was losing to Itachi in every tactical aspect from the moment Itachi turned.​


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

Umm no.
of all of kabuto's edo tensei, none of them showed to be weaker (with the possible exception of madara)
just jobbing when the plot demanded it.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Umm no.
> of all of kabuto's edo tensei, none of them showed to be weaker
> just jobbing when the plot demanded it.



Most of Kabuto's Edo Tensei were not shown alive. We do know that Deidara and Sasori were blitzed by Sai, Zabuza was blitzed by Kakashi, Kakuzu was shut down by Choji, and that Madara gained a massive speed boost after ditching Edo. So the intelligent conclusion is that Edo zombies are somewhat slower than living counterparts.​


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## LostSelf (Oct 7, 2015)

Obito [Rinnegan]
Nagato
Pain
Itachi
Orochimaru
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Sasori
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Most of Kabuto's Edo Tensei were not shown alive. We do know that Deidara and Sasori were blitzed by Sai, Zabuza was blitzed by Kakashi, Kakuzu was shut down by Choji, and that Madara gained a massive speed boost after ditching Edo. So the intelligent conclusion is that Edo zombies are somewhat slower than living counterparts.​


Sasori and deidara screams PIS.
All the rest don't seem weaker.

Zabuza did just as well as living zabuza would, as did Muu when he battled onoki.
Madara could be the only possible exception, but then again he was stated to be brough back above his peak so yeah...

All of this doesn't matter
edo itachi has better feats than any living itachi, and a zombie body that doesn't tire
and for someone who uses taxing techs like the MS, that's just about the best boost you can get.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Edo Itachi has better feats than living Itachi because the author purposefully kept living Itachi's peak limitations from being shown, choosing instead to hype him as much as possible.​


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

And I already told you why that is insignificant compared with the perks of edo tensei.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> ^
> Except that isn't true.
> A "healthy" version of itachi would still be affected by MS side effects and still has finite chakra pool.
> Edo itachi has infinitely regenerating chakra and sufferes no drawbacks from his MS.
> ...



He wouldn't be effected as heavily as he was when he was dying from an illness.
Itachi used amaterasu in part 1(pre power/stamina inflation) and kept running. In part 2, he was on his knees and caughing blood.

And oh, Edo Itachi never exceeded his chakra limits anyways, so "inifinite chakra" was never a thing to consider.


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2015)

1. Nagato
2. Itachi/Obito(Tobi)
3. Obito(Tobi)/Itachi
4. Pain
5. Orochimaru
6. Kisame
7. Deidara
8. Sasori
9. Kakuzu
10. Konan
11. Hidan
12. Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Oct 7, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> And I already told you why that is insignificant compared with the perks of edo tensei.



Eh, I say Prime Hiruzen is better than Edo Hiruzen. 

I say Prime Itachi is better than Edo Itachi.​


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## Deer Lord (Oct 7, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Eh, I say Prime Hiruzen is better than Edo Hiruzen.
> 
> I say Prime Itachi is better than Edo Itachi.​


Didn't realize hiruzan has MS.


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## Matty (Oct 7, 2015)

A wise man (Icegaze) once told me that it really should be based on how powerful they are.

Rinnegan +MS> Rinnegan> MS> ET> 100 Puppets + 3rd KazeKage> Daikoden + Water Dome>C4> Domu> Konans paper shit> Hidan

so really when you look at it like that. ya gotta see the relevance


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## Mercurial (Oct 7, 2015)

Obito
Six Paths of Pain (Nagato)
Itachi

Zetsu / Kisame / Orochimaru
Kakuzu / Sasori / Deidara
Konan 
Hidan


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## Vice (Oct 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> I guess this is directed at me.



Not pointing you out specifically, it's directed at anybody that insists on forcing in versions of Itachi that doesn't exist just to be able to place him higher than he actually was, despite not having a clue how strong a healthy Itachi could possibly be.



> Healthy Itachi is Edo Itachi without Edo immortality.



And, like Deer Lord said, MS drawbacks and without an infinitely regenerating chakra pool.



> You can at least say that we've seen how Itachi can perform when a terminal disease isn't pulling his leg.



And with edo perks he wouldn't normally have.



> Can't say the same thing about "mobile" Nagato, though.



Mobility was the sole reason Kabuto blamed for Nagato jobbing as an edo. 



> I mean yes, we've seen a mobile one in the manga, who got his shit torn apart by Hanzo. He was young and relatively weak.



And in his prime he was capable of beating Naruto, Bee and Itachi by himself.



> Besides, mobility isn't such a big deal for Nagato anyways.



Mobility is infinitely important for a ninja.

And besides, Nagato looked like this:



Pretty sure mobility wasn't his only problem.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 7, 2015)

If we are just going by combat prowess, 1 vs 1 scenarios, then this is how I see it, I have included Orochimaru and Kabuto.

*Top Tier*
Orochimaru
Obito
Nagato
Kabuto
Itachi

*Mid-Tier*
Deidara
Kisame
Kakuzu
Sasori

*Low-Tier*
Konan
Hidan
Zetsu

The division of the tiers is a rough estimate, within the tiers, it's difficult to gauge who would win in a fight between themselves, but it's debatable so I'd leave it at that. The strongest fighter so far we've seen is probably Orochimaru w/ET Hokages, he easily ranks at the top with Obito and his Six Paths coming in a close 2nd and of course then I'd say it's a tie between Kabuto and Nagato, since Nagato's Paths are really shitty. Itachi pulls up the rear here, even in his Edo Form, I can't see him lasting long against multiple bijuu-level opponents or Orochimaru's Hokages. I doubt he beats Kabuto on his own either.

The real discussion starts with who we rank at the top of the mid-tier, I'm saying Deidara solely because his C4 could solo literally solo anyone in that category or that his C1/C2/C3 would be enough to take out Sasori. I mean he defeated Gaara with it who was a solid sand user. Kisame seems to fluctuate far too much to gauge him accurately but if we leave all the bijuu stuff at the door because this more opponent based, then he'd be a solid mid-tier.


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## Crow (Oct 7, 2015)

1. Obito w/ Mangekyo & Rinnegan
2. Nagato (Not 6 paths but prime)
3. Itachi
4.Kisame
5. Orochimaru
6. Sasori
7. Deidara
8. Kazuku
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11 Zetsu

I would rank Konan with prep as like above Deidera.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2015)

Vice said:


> Not pointing you out specifically, it's directed at anybody that insists on forcing in versions of Itachi that doesn't exist just to be able to place him higher than he actually was, despite not having a clue how strong a healthy Itachi could possibly be.


Healthy Itachi did exist, because Zetsu was awe struck by Itachi's performance against Sasuke and he claimed Itachi was supposed to be much stronger. 
And given his suprise, it is clear that Healthy Itachi was the norm, not the outlier. His diseased state was an anomaly.

QUOTE]A[nd, like Deer Lord said, MS drawbacks and without an infinitely regenerating chakra pool.[/QUOTE]
Itachi never made use of infinite chakra pool(as far as I recall no edo did) so it is a nonfactor anyways.



> And with edo perks he wouldn't normally have.


I already mentioned the immortality, which Itachi had to fall back on against Kabuto only.



> Mobility was the sole reason Kabuto blamed for Nagato jobbing as an edo.


Not really. 
He says he thought Rinnegan's shared vision would make up for his lack of mobility, but Itachi's shurikens came from blindspots and disabled it.
Itachi simply exploited a weakness in his defense, that was what Kabuto was pointing out.



> And in his prime he was capable of beating Naruto, Bee and Itachi by himself.


? When did this happen ? 



> Mobility is infinitely important for a ninja.
> 
> And besides, Nagato looked like this:
> 
> ...


Well I wasn't referring to that state obviously. That crippled state is weaker than Pain. I was talking about when he absorbed B's chakra and restored his previous appereance.

I also disagree about the importance of mobility.
It completely Depends on fighting style.
It is more important for A then it is for Gaara, for example.
Nagato doesn't need as much mobility as ninja like Minato. You can tell that by observing Deva realm's fighting style.


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## Matty (Oct 7, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> If we are just going by combat prowess, 1 vs 1 scenarios, then this is how I see it, I have included Orochimaru and Kabuto.
> 
> *Top Tier*
> Orochimaru
> ...



You're lucky I don't neg you for that list Ryu


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## Clowe (Oct 7, 2015)

1- Obito
2- Nagato/Pain
3- Itachi
4- Kisame
5- Orochimaru
6- Kakuzu
7- Sasori
8- Deidara
9- Konan
10- Hidan
11- Zetsu


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## Vice (Oct 7, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Healthy Itachi did exist, because Zetsu was awe struck by Itachi's performance against Sasuke and he claimed Itachi was supposed to be much stronger.



I'd say claiming he was awestruck is a bit much, he merely questioned Itachi's performance and said he should have done better. He didn't act like Sasuke beating him was a complete impossibility. 



> And given his suprise, it is clear that Healthy Itachi was the norm, not the outlier. His diseased state was an anomaly.



Sure healthy Itachi exists in theory, but we don't know enough about him to be able to accurately quantify his strength. Zetsu merely noted that the Itachi that fought Sasuke should have done better than he did. 



> Itachi never made use of infinite chakra pool(as far as I recall no edo did) so it is a nonfactor anyways.



This is merely conjecture, and really, all the spamming of Susanoo and Amaterasu he was using says differently, especially when before even using a couple of techniques at a time had him on his ass. 

I don't really know how you can come to this conclusion when we've actually been shown his real world limits with the MS without the benefits of being an Edo before and he wasn't close to capable of being able to utilize Susanoo as much as he did when merely using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu consecutively required him to have to rest before. 



> I already mentioned the immortality, which Itachi had to fall back on against Kabuto only.



But immortality wasn't the only benefit he had. Even if you want to pretend the chakra thing didn't play a part, there was still the part where he had no drawbacks from continual MS use. 

At any rate, there is no possible way healthy Itachi could reach the level he attained as an Edo either way. 



> Not really.
> He says he thought Rinnegan's shared vision would make up for his lack of mobility, but Itachi's shurikens came from blindspots and disabled it.
> Itachi simply exploited a weakness in his defense, that was what Kabuto was pointing out.



None of this really detracts from the point, especially when Kabuto himself blamed Nagato's mobility issues for his loss. Itachi being able to do what he did was a direct result from it. 



> ? When did this happen ?



When Kishimoto decided to pit the three against him at once. Kabuto being a piss poor puppet master and Nagato's lack of mobility are the only reasons his plan backfired. 



> Well I wasn't referring to that state obviously. That crippled state is weaker than Pain. I was talking about when he absorbed B's chakra and restored his previous appereance.



But again, Kabuto directly attributed Nagato's loss explicitly towards a lack of mobility, so in Nagato's case, it would have been extremely important regardless of how much less of a hindrance you feel it would have been compared to Itachi. 



> I also disagree about the importance of mobility.
> It completely Depends on fighting style.
> It is more important for A then it is for Gaara, for example.
> Nagato doesn't need as much mobility as ninja like Minato. You can tell that by observing Deva realm's fighting style.


 
Not really sure why you'd say something like this. Guys like Gaara and Nagato being able to work around their limitations doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from being faster and more mobile. It would only make them that much stronger, really.


----------



## Empathy (Oct 7, 2015)

Orochimaru (With Edo Hokages)
Rinnegan Obito
Pain
Pre-Rinnegan Obito
Itachi
Orochimaru (before fighting Hiruzen)
Sasori
Deidara
Orochimaru (around KN4 fight)
Kisame
Kakuzu
Konan
Hidan
Omitted Zetsu and Taka. Itachi might be stronger than Pre-Rinnegan Obito; I'm unsure, but not quite ready to commit to his placement above him.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 8, 2015)

1. Itachi/Pain
2. Obito (MS)
3. Sasori
4. Deidara
5. Orochimaru
6. Kisame
7. Sasuke*
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Suigetsu
11. Hidan
12. Jugo
13. Zetsu
14. Karin

*Sasuke with immature MS, up to the time of his arguably "official" defection from the Akatsuki (i.e., after retrieving Killer B's tentacle and getting cyberbullied by Zetsu forced him to do what Uchihas do best: ...run). Before his Susano'o manifested for the first time.

Sidenote: Taka doesn't deserve to be counted as members of Akatsuki. At all. Even Sasuke.

I've stuck with this order for what seems like years now; pretty confident I got it right. If you wanna throw Edo Itachi and Edo Nagato on there, I'd put 'em over the current #1 spot together. Obito with his Jinchuuriki Pain or Juubi powers obviously tops the list. There's also the unnumbered, anonymous members that were Kakuzu's former partners before he murdered them...but we obviously have no way to rank them.

I don't count Kabuto as a member of Akatsuki; I think of him more as a wartime ally or like an independent contract worker/mercenary--cooperating, but had his own agenda and no loyalty to Akatsuki.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 8, 2015)

Vice said:


> Sure healthy Itachi exists in theory, but we don't know enough about him to be able to accurately quantify his strength.



Precisely. 



Vice said:


> Zetsu merely noted that the Itachi that fought Sasuke should have done better than he did.



He likened Sick Itachi to a badly injured Healthy Itachi.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2015)

Vice said:


> I'd say claiming he was awestruck is a bit much, he merely questioned Itachi's performance and said he should have done better. He didn't act like Sasuke beating him was a complete impossibility.



He actually did. 

"I can't believe it... It doesn't make any sense... Itachi should have been much stronger than this..."
"Maybe he'd already been badly wounded before the fight?"



> Sure healthy Itachi exists in theory, but we don't know enough about him to be able to accurately quantify his strength. Zetsu merely noted that the Itachi that fought Sasuke should have done better than he did.


Thats obviously an understatement.
He used the exact words "much stronger."

Also like I said, we have seen Edo Itachi fight, IC, without exceeding his chakra limitations, with no hint of a terminal illness.
You can take that as a model for Healthy Itachi.



> This is merely conjecture, and really, all the spamming of Susanoo and Amaterasu he was using says differently, especially when before even using a couple of techniques at a time had him on his ass.


Thats when he was terminally ill.

In Part 1, he uses a 72 hour Tsukiyomi and starts to pant but nothing too serious.  
Uses another Tsukiyomi and Amaterasu(on foot) and keeps running. 
And that is by part 1 standarts mind you, when Kakashi's raikiri limit was 4, when he had to be hospitalized after using sharingan for 5 minutes. Even pre inflation, Itachi's condition after consecutive MS usage wasn't so bad.

In the Sasuke fight, Amaterasu had him on his knees, coughing blood.

It is obvious that there is a big gap between deathbed Itachi and Healthy Itachi.



> I don't really know how you can come to this conclusion when we've actually been shown his real world limits with the MS without the benefits of being an Edo before and he wasn't close to capable of being able to utilize Susanoo as much as he did when merely using Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu consecutively required him to have to rest before.



I can scale his capability from Part 1 and combine it with what we've heard from Zetsu and his ET performance.



> But immortality wasn't the only benefit he had. Even if you want to pretend the chakra thing didn't play a part, there was still the part where he had no drawbacks from continual MS use.


Continual ? 
Against Nagato, he used 2 Amaterasu, and a minute of Susano'o, only last 20 seconds being the highest stage.
That is alot less than his fight against Sasuke.

Against Kabuto, Izanami, sharingan genjutsu, 1 Tsukiyomi and brief Susano'o usage here and there for very short bursts.



> At any rate, there is no possible way healthy Itachi could reach the level he attained as an Edo either way.


I am pretty sure he could, especially when you consider ET are weaker than the Original anway.




> None of this really detracts from the point, especially when Kabuto himself blamed Nagato's mobility issues for his loss. Itachi being able to do what he did was a direct result from it.


Did he really ? 

I think it was just an excuse for his loss. Kabuto raged like a nerdy kid getting angry at loss over a computer game.

Nagato's mobility doesn't effect his capability of using his strongest techniques. And Kabuto seemed pretty confident up until Itachi sealed his ass.  



> When Kishimoto decided to pit the three against him at once. Kabuto being a piss poor puppet master and Nagato's lack of mobility are the only reasons his plan backfired.


Kishimoto decided to pit three against him, and Nagato went down in 8 pages. Probably a minute if you convert it to real time units.
In other words he got stomped. With Itachi doing the heavy lifting and Nagato apologizing directly to him afterwards.
In no fucking way Kishimoto implied that Nagato could take on all three of them at once. No.




> But again, Kabuto directly attributed Nagato's loss explicitly towards a lack of mobility, so in Nagato's case, it would have been extremely important regardless of how much less of a hindrance you feel it would have been compared to Itachi.


I am trying to see how different it would be if he had mobility and I can't do it. 

Even with mobility, he would still rely on shared vision(that is one of the greatest aspects of rinnegan) and even with mobility, he wouldn't be able to dodge something that he can't see coming. I mean, even Deva only opted to dodge things when he couldn't use shinra tensei. 
Nagato had absorbtion barrier and shinra tensei. They are alot faster and more effective than dodging.



> Not really sure why you'd say something like this. Guys like Gaara and Nagato being able to work around their limitations doesn't mean they wouldn't benefit from being faster and more mobile. It would only make them that much stronger, really.



I disagree. Gaara can move around with his sand, nagato can move around with his summons, and both of their skillset can be executed from long range. Both of their defensive and offensive moves can be used from any range, without requiring them to move. 
Especially Nagato's powers. 

Not saying they can't make use of mobility, but they just don't need it given their skillset.


----------



## Ghoztly (Oct 8, 2015)

The Itachi downplay is even worse than fans now. We're talking about a guy who eliminated Nagato's entire field of vision with simple kunai.

No way in fuck is he fighting Itachi Naruto and Bee all at once seriously. Itachi swooped in, saves their ass, proceeded to figure out how to beat CT in like one panel.


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## DavyChan (Oct 8, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Itachi


konan
kisame
deidara
orochimaru

kakuzu
hidan

zetsu


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## LostSelf (Oct 8, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> The Itachi downplay is even worse than fans now. We're talking about a guy who eliminated Nagato's entire field of vision with simple kunai.
> 
> No way in fuck is he fighting Itachi Naruto and Bee all at once seriously. Itachi swooped in, saves their ass, proceeded to figure out how to beat CT in like one panel.



Rock Lee also kicked Madara's body apart.

That doesn't mean Rock Lee's above Madara. It means that with backup or the correct situation, you can do so.

Or do you think Itachi would do the same easily if Nagato's fighting Itachi one on one?


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## Eliyua23 (Oct 8, 2015)

Obito
Nagato
Orochimaru
Itachi
Sasori/Kisame/Konan
Kakuzu
Deidara
Hidan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Oct 8, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Or do you think Itachi would do the same easily if Nagato's fighting Itachi one on one?



Do you think Itachi's incapable of successfully using a bunshin feint on Nagato to give himself the opening to throw kunai into blindspots from the side once again?​


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## ARGUS (Oct 8, 2015)

till this day, people are still thinking that itachi could have solod nagato? when it was clear that he needed naruto and bees help to take out CT, 

hell edo itachi was practically gone for over 5 minutes, and only did what he did, because nagato was busy fighting KCM naruto and Bee (who he was dominating) 

as for the Lists above, i must say most of them are trash, 

how the hell are people pitting the likes of Deidara and Sasori above Kisame? 
these clowns got manhandled by the kankuro squad fodders. with boh of them getting their shit blitzed by sais attack. 

Sasori got punked by thelikes of chiyo and early part 2 sakura 
yet we are putting him above Kisame, who was dominating Killer Bee, and known as one of the best bijuu hunters in the akatsuki? 

as for Deidara, well he can match up well against kisame individually, but overall he is a good tier below. given how much trouble he had against hebi sasuke (who gets shit stomped by kisame, and who also got shat on by Bee, when kisame overwhelmed a more serious bee) 

either way. i can keep on going on about Kisaem being superior by feats and portryal, 
and there are a plethora of events in the manga where deidara and sasori (especilaly sasori) have been seriously dissappointing


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

Ghoztly said:


> The Itachi downplay is even worse than fans now. We're talking about a guy who eliminated Nagato's entire field of vision with simple kunai.
> 
> No way in fuck is he fighting Itachi Naruto and Bee all at once seriously. Itachi swooped in, saves their ass, proceeded to figure out how to beat CT in like one panel.


Even if this is a healthy, alive version of Itachi, he still doesn't possess the chakra levels to compete against Nagato, if the match is standard, with no restrictions/no knowledge for either, Nagato really has an overwhelming advantage. The only reason why Itachi was able to get as far as he could was because he had back up of two different jinchuriki's that Nagato wasn't trying to kill.

What sets Obito apart from Nagato is Kamui, that technique is just far too broken, especially the one that Obito has. But then if you include the Six Jinchuriki Paths, it's game over.


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## T-Bag (Oct 9, 2015)

Itachi
Nagato
Obito
Orochimaru
Kisame
Deidara
Kakuzu
Hidan
Konan
Zetsu


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## Sadgoob (Oct 9, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Even if this is a healthy, alive version of Itachi, he still doesn't possess the chakra levels to compete against Nagato, if the match is standard, with no restrictions/no knowledge for either, Nagato really has an overwhelming advantage. The only reason why Itachi was able to get as far as he could was because he had back up of two different jinchuriki's that Nagato wasn't trying to kill.



You're looking at it backwards. The only reason Nagato was able to get as far as he did was because he  Gyuki and was allowed to regenerate from the two times Itachi cut his arms off.

Which is basically the same way Kakashi uses Kamui quickly if he feels he's otherwise outmatched by his opponent. This is Nagato without the Gyuki after using Chibaku Tensei.

And even with that buff, Nagato was losing control of the situation so quickly that he immediately jumped to his ultimate technique. Nagato then lost instantly to Itachi's ultimate technique.​


----------



## Nikushimi (Oct 9, 2015)

Can't believe I didn't notice this earlier.



DaVizWiz said:


> When he claims something that is later proven false... the claim is thrown out of the window.



Deidara's claim that Sasori was probably his superior was never proven false. Sasori died, jobbing to vastly inferior enemies, without ever being brought up in comparison to Deidara again.



> Sasori can't even stop C1 4-winged birds who fly around his defenses and blow up in his face.



Sasori can intercept them with fodder puppets, of which he has plenty, or Satetsu, of which he has a fixed but reusable supply.



> Sasori's sand isn't faster than Gaara's, it's not more durable than Gaara's, which is inflated with all materials of the earth like diamond, titanium, which are all more resistant than iron, and he cannot shape/guard as quickly as Gaara can with his sand.



You're gonna have to substantiate the claim that Gaara's sand contains any significant amount of diamond or titanium. But you can't.

Satetsu is visibly harder (evidenced by the fact that Sakura hit a block without deforming it) and travels at a much higher velocity than Gaara's sand (evidenced by sonic booms and heavier environmental damage upon impact).



> The shaped iron sand was so slow Sakura was beginning to predict it's movements,



IIRC, she was doing that based on Sasori's finger movements controlling the Kazekage puppet.



> and there's no proof that Sasori has any chance at dissembling it, and creating a full sphere barrier around himself to protect himself from Deidara's high-speed clay attacks fast enough- not that there's any proof that that would save him against multiple C2 pigs.



Satetsu can be freely shaped. That's not even debatable.

What actually requires some explanation, is how Deidara is equipped to defend against Satetsu. His explosive clay is a good offense, but he's sorely lacking defense.



> Early PT.2 Sakura's punches were sending the iron sand constructs back, that wouldn't even remotely be the case with Gaara's sand,



That's because Gaara doesn't _typically_ solidify his sand, except for specific applications like armor or the Shukaku shield.



> especially the volume of it he used to block C3. The force explosion of C3, which should be _considerably greater_ than Sakura's punch, would throw Sasori's puppet around that iron ball like a pin ball crushing his puppet body assuming the iron itself isn't completely blown apart considering he can't make even a tenth of the sand that Gaara used to block C3 with



When compared with that enormous of a difference in volume...yes, there is no question that Gaara's sand is the better shock absorber.



> and iron isn't exactly the strongest metal, it can be completely wrecked by significantly weaker explosions.



There is enough Satetsu available that Deidara would need C3 to do any meaningful harm to Sasori through it. And Sasori can just intercept that, no sweat.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're looking at it backwards. The only reason Nagato was able to get as far as he did was because he absorbed Gyuki and was allowed to regenerate from the two times Itachi cut him into pieces.
> 
> What happened was that Nagato was losing so badly to Itachi that he immediately jumped to his ultimate technique. The team handled that under Itachi's direction. And then Nagato lost instantly to Itachi's ultimate technique.​



Yeah but no matter how you try to sugarcoat it, Itachi is powerless against CT though, the one used against Naruto, Itachi and KB was a small variant of the one used against Naruto during the Invasion. Nagato could literally pour the bulk of his chakra into it and just seal Itachi away.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 9, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Yeah but no matter how you try to sugarcoat it, Itachi is powerless against CT though, the one used against Naruto, Itachi and KB was a small variant of the one used against Naruto during the Invasion. Nagato could literally pour the bulk of his chakra into it and just seal Itachi away.



We don't know if Itachi by himself is truly powerless against it. But we do know that Nagato by himself was unable to stop the Amaterasu, Susano'o swipes, the Totsuka, and Itachi's kunai from connecting each time. He'd also be unlikely to stop Izanami.

Nagato _might_ consistently beat Itachi is if he uses his ultimate jutsu immediately. But that would be the primary way early p2 Kakashi would beat Itachi as well. To me, that might result in victory, but shows _implicit fear_ of Itachi's general superiority.

The reason Itachi's never rushed to use the Totsuka, his ultimate offensive technique, on an enemy is because he's never been sufficiently afraid of an enemy to think he has to do so.​


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

Nagato is basically a small version of Madara without as much mobility but then again he doesn't need to. As long as he has use of Preta/Deva powers, I don't think Itachi can touch him, but that only applies to the one we've seen in the manga, Edo Itachi and Sick Itachi, that PS Itachi is another case.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 9, 2015)

Itachi _did_ touch Nagato. He hit him with Amaterasu, with Susano'o, and with the Totsuka. He blinded all of his summons with kunai. Literally every move he made connected through Nagato's defenses.​


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## Matty (Oct 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> till this day, people are still thinking that itachi could have solod nagato? when it was clear that he needed naruto and bees help to take out CT,
> 
> hell edo itachi was practically gone for over 5 minutes, and only did what he did, because nagato was busy fighting KCM naruto and Bee (who he was dominating)
> 
> ...




People must really hate Sasori on this site. How can people really claim he got beat horribly by Kankuro and Sai when he had none of his puppets, nor his puppet body?

Give Edo Sasori 3rd Kazekage, his puppet body and his 100 puppets technique all drenched in poison, like he had when alive, and the unlimited chakra/regen of an edo tensei, then come talk to me. He was the single most gimped character in the war.

It's the equivalent of bringing Obito back and giving him nothing but a 3T sharingan


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## Nikushimi (Oct 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> how the hell are people pitting the likes of Deidara and Sasori above Kisame?
> these clowns got manhandled by the kankuro squad fodders. with boh of them getting their shit blitzed by sais attack.



Deidara and Sasori at their respective full powers could single-handedly annihilate Kankuro's entire squad; Deidara could do it in one attack, multiple times over. Deidara can wipe out Kankuro's entire village in one move.

The weak beat the strong when the plot calls for it. Jobbing happens.



> Sasori got punked by thelikes of chiyo and early part 2 sakura
> yet we are putting him above Kisame, who was dominating Killer Bee, and known as one of the best bijuu hunters in the akatsuki?



Well, Chiyo and Sakura had the benefit of prepped antidotes. They also still would have lost...if Sasori didn't hesitate to avoid Chiyo's last-ditch killing strike; she said so herself.

Let's also remember that Kisame's moveset is engineered to benefit from stealing chakra, which makes a chakra-tank like B his ideal opponent.



> as for Deidara, well he can match up well against kisame individually, but overall he is a good tier below. given how much trouble he had against hebi sasuke (who gets shit stomped by kisame, and who also got shat on by Bee, when kisame overwhelmed a more serious bee)



Hebi Sasuke never fought B, nor Kisame; you can't fairly compare him to the Sasuke with the immature MS that fought to capture B, who traded the Juin and Orochimaru's powers for a one-off reflex Amaterasu.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Itachi _did_ touch Nagato. He hit him with Amaterasu, with Susano'o, and with the Totsuka. He blinded all of his summons with kunai. Literally every move he made connected through Nagato's defenses.​



By touch, I meant like get at him hard, Amaterasu was repelled by ST. He was able to do all of those things with KB / Naruto focusing on attacking. I don't see the chakra division with Itachi making clones and then being able to keep one side busy long enough to do something to Six Paths and/or Summons.


----------



## Matty (Oct 9, 2015)

I still think Nagato or Obito shits on a healthy Itachi. He is more their equal than anyone but he just has a bad matchup with both of them.


----------



## Kai (Oct 9, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi
> Nagato
> Obito
> Orochimaru
> ...



I don't understand how you have a well grasp of the mid-low Akatsuki members' relative rankings yet skew the top three so horrendously.


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## Empathy (Oct 9, 2015)

T-Bag said:


> Itachi
> Nagato
> Obito
> Orochimaru
> ...



You forgot Sasori.


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## LostSelf (Oct 9, 2015)

Kai said:


> I don't understand how you have a well grasp of the mid-low Akatsuki members' relative rankings yet skew the top three so horrendously.



That's what happen when you put Itachi where he doesn't belong .


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

I'd really like to know who in the Akatsuki could face Obito and win against his paths. I mean it took BSM Naruto, Kakashi, BM Hacibi and Gai to just remove/put a scratch on him after like 25 chapters of fighting lol


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## Empathy (Oct 9, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> Sasori got punked by thelikes of chiyo and early part 2 sakura
> yet we are putting him above Kisame, who was dominating Killer Bee, and known as one of the best bijuu hunters in the akatsuki?



Sasori let Chiyo kill him and had the opportunity to win more than once. Without prior preparation (that's a large advantage, considering the damage vastly inferior opponents like Shikamaru and Konan could do to Hidan and Obito), they would've been killed several times over. Kisame is stated to be a perfect counter toward jinchuuriki, making him the best bijuu hunter. Killer Bee is Itachi-level, and Kisame has made it abundantly clear that he isn't Itachi-level. Bee could've at least made it out of _Dai Bakusui Shoha_, but he wasn't willing to go full Hachibi and had to protect Sabu and Ponta.



> as for Deidara, well he can match up well against kisame individually, but overall he is a good tier below. given how much trouble he had against hebi sasuke (who gets shit stomped by kisame, and who also got shat on by Bee, when kisame overwhelmed a more serious bee)



Kisame:
Can't counter _Kirin_
Is weak to genjutsu
Manda or Aoda can block _Daikodan_ and _Senjikizame_
His boss snakes can get him out of the dome and fight well while within it, effectively countering all three of Kisame's greatest suitons
Suiton empower raitons 
His precognition and senjutsu-enhanced body easily give him an edge physically. If he's injured, he can regenerate (but Kisame can too).
If Kisame somehow manages to drain him too much, _Yamata no Jutsu_ comes out, which Kisame can't put down.

How exactly does Hebi Sasuke not win against Kisame, let alone get stomped by him? Deidara and Hebi Sasuke would both defeat Kisame. Taka Sasuke, who was still injured and never used _Amaterasu_ on purpose, is who fought Bee. He was inferior to Hebi Sasuke at the time. Sasuke and Kisame both ended up in the same position up close against Bee at first (bleeding out and dying), until being forced to use their big trump (_Amaterasu_ and _Suiro Sameodori_, respectively.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 9, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> I'd really like to know who in the Akatsuki could face Obito and win against his paths. I mean it took BSM Naruto, Kakashi, BM Hacibi and Gai to just remove/put a scratch on him after like 25 chapters of fighting lol



Only someone that's completely invincible could beat that version of Obito.

But IMO at that point Akatsuki was finished. Obito even ditched the robes.



Kai said:


> I don't understand how you have a well grasp of the mid-low Akatsuki members' relative rankings yet skew the top three so horrendously.



The author made _solid_ cases for Itachi's superiority to Obito and Nagato.

People that think Healthy Itachi was the strongest are not definitively wrong.

*Obito:*

Itachi indicates he knows how to counter Kamui. Obito flees. (Written by author.)

[youtube]IEKiAonlYXc[/youtube]

Obito also stated Itachi's presence kept him in check:



*Nagato*

Nagato was established to have huge power. But Itachi is more than just power:



(This is statement contrasts Itachi with Nagato, and Itachi's superiority to him.)




 and Itachi repeatedly mentioned Itachi's genjutsu being a key factor to Kabuto winning the war. This seems to indicate that Itachi's unknown mass controlling  is a more useful tool of war than the Rinnegan's raw power. Itachi may well have been a better Edo Tensei chess piece than Nagato.


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## LostSelf (Oct 9, 2015)

Strategoob's the perfect poster to be Itachi's fan. He can trick you pretty easily if you don't pay attention.


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## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Oct 9, 2015)

"Itachi's Dead. Now I don't need to fight the guy who wouldn't allow me to attack Konoha since his loyalty lies with them, not with my Akatsuki."

If Obito fought Itachi while the Akatsuki were still around they would ask why they are fighting right now and Obito wouldn't be able to manipulate the remaining members. Civil War in a Criminal Organization never ends that well. 

Non-Canon movie "I thought it be cool to see Naruto if his parents never died".

How would Obito possibly be harmed when he doesn't even exist in a made up world?

"Itachi is an even better Shinobi than me!" Hashirama Part 2.0.

"If we both were to fight him we both would die. Even if we had more people the result is the same" "Yeah he's makes the Monster of Kiri and the Uchiha Clan petty in comparison, he's one of the Legendary 3, a Sannin".

Unknown mass Genjutsu of unknownness? Glad we can quantify that like the other 900 unknown jutsu's of unknownness. Prime Hiruzen still solo's.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 9, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Only someone that's completely invincible could beat that version of Obito.
> 
> But IMO at that point Akatsuki was finished. Obito even ditched the robes


Yeah, in my opinion, very few shinobi could tangle with that and win. I'd bet that ET Madara would have a much more difficult time fighting Obito than he did fighting Hashirama or the Gokage.

Perhaps, but I assume we're taking the best versions of each of these characters. When ranking Itachi, I'm also including his feats during his time as an ET, the same goes for Nagato and the others.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 10, 2015)

My list is ordering the Akatsuki while they were in Akatsuki, but to each their own of course.​


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2015)

Nagato and Itachi were portrayed equally, or at least relatively close. Going by their dialgoues and depiction in the war arc. Also there is the instance where Nagato apologized to Itachi directly, only acknowledging him as his peer among Naruto, Bee and Itachi.

Pre War arc Obito was portrayed fairly below.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 10, 2015)

Pre War Arc Obito was bossing Nagato around and messing with Minato in a flashback. That's not "fairly below".


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Pre War Arc Obito was bossing Nagato around and messing with Minato in a flashback. That's not "fairly below".



Gato was bossing Zabuza around.

Itachi called pre war arc Obito a loser, Obito himself admitted that he was a shell of his former self, got his shit torn apart by Minato with relatively low difficulty(although we later on learned that he was a kid back then), got almost his shit torn apart by Konan, and had minor difficulty against Danzo's bodyguards(his war arc counterpart was fighting almost equally with Gai, Kakashi and KCM Naruto in CQC with less trouble).


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## Alex Payne (Oct 10, 2015)

Are you seriously using Itachi's and Obito's lies as arguments?

Obito was held back by Itachi's information about him. He joked about Itachi's trap and then manipulated Sasuke while disregarding Itachi's actions and intentions. How can he be lower than Itachi in portrayal if Itachi couldn't do a single thing to him except information-blackmail? And was unable to stop him at all? Itachi didn't have anything on Obito except sensitive information. He wouldn't gamble on a post-death trap if that wasn't the case. And this last gamble failed anyways.


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## S (Oct 10, 2015)

Itachi and Nagato equall? Obito weaker then Itachi? pff, seriously the Itachi wank is out control. I'm pretty sure if Itachi's story didnt end so shortly he would have the feats to hang with the top tier characters. 

I think he is below the likes of Nagato, Kabuto and Obito.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Are you seriously using Itachi's and Obito's lies as arguments?
> 
> Obito was held back by Itachi's information about him. He joked about Itachi's trap and then manipulated Sasuke while disregarding Itachi's actions and intentions. How can he be lower than Itachi in portrayal if Itachi couldn't do a single thing to him except information-blackmail? And was unable to stop him at all? Itachi didn't have anything on Obito except sensitive information. He wouldn't gamble on a post-death trap if that wasn't the case. And this last gamble failed anyways.



What lies ? 
Yes, Obito was being compared to Madara's prime, that is why he was considered a "shell of his former self" or "loser" but even if you brush that aside, if he was strong enough, he wouldn't have to lurk in the shadows for years and rely on manipulating others and deception. And he surely wouldn't get blackmailed or felt threatened by a 13 year old.

He joked about Itachi's trap, outloud, on the inside he was saying something else though. And thats without him knowing about Koto. So his assesment was wrong in the end.

Obito with all power in his hand(resources, knowledge and akatsuki) couldn't do anything about Itachi either. You may argue that both of them benefited not from confronting each other directly. Although I think Obito's portrayal took a big dip with the Kyuubi attack flashbacks. The mastermind we thought he was, was dispatched with relative ease and lost the menacing aura/presence he had earlier. Getting almost killed by Konan and having difficulty against Danzo's guards was just icing on the cake. I actually thought he was a "loser" with Itachi's words resonating in my mind. It all made sense.




S said:


> Itachi and Nagato equall? Obito weaker then Itachi? pff, seriously the Itachi wank is out control. I'm pretty sure if Itachi's story didnt end so shortly he would have the feats to hang with the top tier characters.
> 
> I think he is below the likes of Nagato, Kabuto and Obito.



On the Ninja hierarchy of respect and portrayal, yes they were depicted as such.

Reading all the interractions they had, there is no way you can tell one was portrayed superior to the other.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 10, 2015)

1) Obito 
2) Nagato
3) Itachi
4) Konan (with Paper God Technique)
5) Orochimaru (at the time of Akatsuki)
4) Kisame
5) Deidara
6) Kakuzu
7) Konan (without prep)
8) Sasori
8) Zetsu
9) Hidan
​​


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## Sadgoob (Oct 10, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Are you seriously using Itachi's and Obito's lies as arguments?



Itachi and Obito saying the masked "Madara" was a pathetic shell of his former self is not a lie. We saw the real Madara.​


Alex Payne said:


> Obito was held back by Itachi's information about him.



That was never said. It's purely your interpretation. What is unilaterally true is that Itachi was held back because he actually honored the bargain with Obito, and expected Obito to honor his part. But Obito waited until Itachi died to go back on his word because he was afraid of crossing a living Itachi.​


Alex Payne said:


> He joked about Itachi's trap and then manipulated Sasuke while *disregarding Itachi's actions and intentions*.



He waited until after Itachi was out of the way. Like a bitch.​


Alex Payne said:


> He wouldn't gamble on a post-death trap if that wasn't the case.



You didn't read that section carefully. Itachi didn't know Obito knew the truth about him, would break their bargain, or had intentions to manipulate Sasuke. Itachi didn't know much about Obito because Obito hid away from his own organization when Itachi was around. Itachi put in failsafes for Sasuke _just in case_.​


Alex Payne said:


> And this last gamble failed anyways.



No, it didn't. He accounted for his Amaterasu not landing with the second failsafe of Shisui's eye, which was absolutely instrumental in preventing Naruto's capture and the Alliance from being steamrolled. Itachi's safety measures _*successfully*_ saved Konoha and Sasuke, albeit in a different way than Itachi originally foresaw.​


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## LostSelf (Oct 10, 2015)

Why kill who's working for you? What need had Obito to kill Itachi when he was obeying?

Obito could've killed Itachi if he so desired. It's not like he had Pain on his side. Unless we begin to say that Itachi would beat both...

Lack of power is not what Obito had, considering that him, by himself, was enough to give Itachi a hard battle and win. Adding Pain would make it a stomp, or Itachi somehow managing to escape and begin revealing information about Akatsuki.

But then again, no need to kill who's doing what you want him to do. Itachi was never a threat to Obito. Who planned a freaking war against the entire world.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito with all power in his hand(resources, knowledge and akatsuki) couldn't do anything about Itachi either. You may argue that both of them benefited not from confronting each other directly. Although I think Obito's portrayal took a big dip with the Kyuubi attack flashbacks. The mastermind we thought he was, was dispatched with relative ease and lost the menacing aura/presence he had earlier. Getting almost killed by Konan and having difficulty against Danzo's guards was just icing on the cake. *I actually thought he was a "loser" with Itachi's words resonating in my mind. It all made sense.*





Strategoob said:


> Itachi and Obito saying the masked "Madara" was a pathetic shell of his former self is not a lie. We saw the real Madara.​
> That was never said. It's purely your interpretation. What is unilaterally true is that *Itachi was held back because he actually honored the bargain with Obito, and expected Obito to honor his part*. But Obito waited until Itachi died to go back on his word because he was afraid of crossing a living Itachi.​
> *He waited until after Itachi was out of the way. Like a bitch.*​
> You didn't read that section carefully. Itachi didn't know Obito knew the truth about him, would break their bargain, or had intentions to manipulate Sasuke. Itachi didn't know much about Obito because Obito hid away from his own organization when Itachi was around. *Itachi put in failsafes for Sasuke just in case.*​
> No, it didn't. He accounted for his Amaterasu not landing with the second failsafe of Shisui's eye, which was absolutely instrumental in preventing Naruto's capture and the Alliance from being steamrolled. Itachi's safety measures _*successfully*_ saved Konoha and Sasuke, albeit in a different way than Itachi originally foresaw.​


You guys are truly beyond help.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 10, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Why kill who's working for you? What need had Obito to kill Itachi when he was obeying?
> 
> Obito could've killed Itachi if he so desired. It's not like he had Pain on his side. Unless we begin to say that Itachi would beat both...
> 
> ...



Obito never implied such thing.
He only said "now that Itachi is dead, I can do what I want." or some shit along those lines.
That surely doesn't translate into "Itachi wasn't a threat, I could have killed him anytime I want."
You have to change whatever dictionary you are using for translation/interpretation, it is not working obviously.

Not only that but, turns out Itachi had the ultimate technique that counters Obito. Izanami.
A genjutsu that would work on a mangekyou sharingan user with a personality disorder, who also happens to be an Izanagi user with a extremely predictable skillset.
If Kishimoto designed Izanami first, and then had to design a victim for it, it couldn't be far off from Obito.



Alex Payne said:


> You guys are truly beyond help.



Nice to meet you Help.


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## LostSelf (Oct 10, 2015)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Obito never implied such thing.
> He only said "now that Itachi is dead, I can do what I want." or some shit along those lines.
> That surely doesn't translate into "Itachi wasn't a threat, I could have killed him anytime I want."
> You have to change whatever dictionary you are using for translation/interpretation, it is not working obviously.
> ...



Don't know you. But i'm pretty sure that Pain and Obito would've stomped Itachi if Obito wanted to kill him.

The only threat Itachi was to Obito was revealing information to other villages. But i'm pretty sure Obito wasn't affraid of having a direct fight against Itachi. Way less when he had Akatsuki on his side.

So yeah, Itachi wasn't a threat to him other than the information he got.

And i find much more likely that Obito said he could attack Konoha because he had no further use of Itachi other than fear.

Again, unless you are brave enough to cross the line and say that Itachi was a threat to a Pain possessing Obito, who at the same time had the entire Akatsuki at his side.

Wich in that case, I'll stop trying to bring logic where it doesn't exist in the first place.


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## Matty (Oct 10, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> 1) Obito
> 2) Nagato
> 3) Itachi
> 4) Konan (with Paper God Technique)
> ...



Zetsu above hidan? Konan above Sasori?


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 10, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Zetsu above hidan? Konan above Sasori?



I can actually see the Zetsu greater than Hidan argument but lmao @ Konan above Sasori, I mean, I think Sasori is low in the rankings but not that low where Konan without prep beats him


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 11, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> Don't know you. But i'm pretty sure that Pain and Obito would've stomped Itachi if Obito wanted to kill him.



Apparently thats not what Obito believed. 
Obito may not have that much influence over Nagato anyways. Nagato was only following him around, because he thought they were after the same thing.
We don't know how he would react if Obito told him to mobilize and kill Itachi.
And he probably didn't think it was worth the risk. 



> The only threat Itachi was to Obito was revealing information to other villages. But i'm pretty sure Obito wasn't affraid of having a direct fight against Itachi. Way less when he had Akatsuki on his side.





> So yeah, Itachi wasn't a threat to him other than the information he got.



This is baseless. 
I am not saying that leak of information wasn't a concern, but if Obito was so much worried about that leak, then he would actually kill Itachi and do everything without him. 
Saying that leak of information was the only concern is just your interpretation.


> And i find much more likely that Obito said he could attack Konoha because he had no further use of Itachi other than fear.


Obito said "Itachi doesn't stand in my way" "no longer a thorn at my side".
So again, you have to stop trying to misinterpret what is directly told to you. 



> Again, unless you are brave enough to cross the line and say that Itachi was a threat to a Pain possessing Obito, who at the same time had the entire Akatsuki at his side.


I don't think Obito would be able to mobilize whole Akatsuki against Itachi without revelaing who Itachi actually was. And by the same token, Itachi could reveal some secrets about obito to the organization. As we know, it was implied that Itachi knew more than Nagato about Akatsuki.



> Wich in that case, I'll stop trying to bring logic where it doesn't exist in the first place.



I am just quoting the words of the author. You are debating against it.


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## T-Bag (Oct 11, 2015)

Kai said:


> I don't understand how you have a well grasp of the mid-low Akatsuki members' relative rankings yet skew the top three so horrendously.



Because obito and nagato are not above the likes of itachi. the manga made this clear...

obito states itachi would have killed him had he known his secrets. and kabuto states itachi is on a different level from naruto, killerbee, _NAGATO._

itachi is constantly wanked by kishit than nagato and obito combined. That's your cue.



Empathy said:


> You forgot Sasori.


I'd rank him below kisame and above deidara.


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## Icegaze (Oct 11, 2015)

Too many times
And all I'll say is it's hilarious to even attempt to put kisame above Orochimaru entirely hilarious 

achievement wise oro has still done better

Kn4 > V2 bee unless u think V2 bee can tank Bd

It might sound like unnecessary hype however a 100 m 8 headed snake bitting anyone without the ability to tank the bite dies on the spot 

If u think how a regular cobra 3 m long with tiny fangs can render u immobile In a few minutes after the bite then kill u in a day 

A 100m snake with human sized fangs bitting any ninja kills them instantly

Performance wise it's hilarious to put konan above sasori . No akatsuki member can get 1 shotted by a common oil attack . That's all it took jiriaya to win


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2015)

Zetsu is so incredibly underrated. People don't even know his abilities probably, or since he doesn't have big AoE attacks these abilities are deemed as nothing impressive. Typical shitty DBZ logic: Deidara can destroy a village with ease, Itachi or Kakashi (if not DMS version) cannot, still they can fodderize Deidara with their hax and skills. Part 1 Temari showed more destructive feats than Hidan, I guess she's more powerful than him? I don't think.

People have the misconception that Zetsu isn't a good fighter, but that's only true for White Zetsu, not for the other half Black Zetsu. It's clearly made a difference ()(). Also not being able to take on Pain Arc SM Naruto and Pain Arc Kakashi it's not that detrimental, I'd say, for Zetsu, but we know that White Zetsu is more a support, with his clones and supplementary skills, for Black Zetsu who is the fighter, and still fights with guerrilla tactics and not directly.

KCM Naruto's Kage Bunshin is able to outperform the 3rd Raikage and land Rasenshuriken on him even without any external help (3). An equally powerful Kage Bunshin even with the help of the Mizukage, Genma, Raido and some other strong jonin and chunin level ninja (so not top tiers but at least decent level shinobi) is unable to defeat Black Zetsu and to hit him with Rasenshuriken (4). The fact that Black Zetsu was "defeated" by Chojuro is not detrimental to him, as Zetsu was playing around and didn't expect Chojuro's sword to have that unpredictable effect (even all the other people around were surprised. A focused Black Zetsu is able to react to KCM Naruto (with his no full Shunshin speed, yeah, that is not as good as his full Shunshin speed but still on par with Itachi (5), Obito (6) and V1 Raikage (7), not bad I'd say) and to Kakashi (who is able to blitz Zabuza, to outspeed Obito (8)(9) and to keep up with Gated Gai (10) even counterblitzing Sharingan and Rinnegan enhanced V2 landing Raikiri on them (11) and also is hyped for his speed ()) together with Minato (13), even evading quick attacks from Minato faster than he can even finish them (14). Someone able to react to said speedsters would laugh at Choujuro if serious and focused on him, logically. Not to mention that Black Zetsu was perfectly alive and kicking after Chojuro's trick anyway.

It's true that Black Zetsu admitted that he would die in seconds against Kakashi and Minato (). Well then, out that god tiers and top tiers, how many S-rank/kage level shinobi won't die in seconds against Kakashi with Kamui and Minato with Hiraishin? So I don't see that statement as detrimental at all. Zetsu is not that powerful if he fights the opponent directly, but if he uses guerrilla tactics, which are what his skillset allows him, he is very tough.

With great reflexes, as showed, such to react to great speedsters with relative ease, he also has sensory abilities (16)(17), and can move at great speed thanks to his Kagero, also someway melting with the surroundings (18)(19)(20)(), and once he does that only a Rinnegan user can see him (it's not like everyone has a Rinnegan), and he can do that even splitting his body to be completely unnoticed (22). With these skills, he can evade the majority of attacks, even fast or wide AoE ones, and he also can take most people by surprise: to his speed and mobility he can supplement his clones with Kisei Bunshin (White Zetsu's clones: they aren't powerful but can be very useful, for example they were able to set Zetsu's spores at the Gokage meeting with the Gokage unable to tell that (23)(24); defeating the clones can bring out Hoshi no jutsu, Zetsu's spores, that can bloom on people remaining unnoticed and then suck out people's chakra). 

Black Zetsu is really hard to kill, he is basically like a black jelly in his true form, we witnessed how cutting his body in half does literally nothing to him (25)(26). He can take advantage of this to outlast his enemies or to take them by surprise: the combo of his mobility skills, supplementary skills and how hard is to kill him make him a tough opponent for most of S-rank/kage level shinobi. Most of people can't hit him, and even if they hit him, they won't kill him. While he can outlast them or take them by surprise, and suck dry their chakra or simply jump on the opponent and stick on him possessing and making them kill themselves; most of people don't have Obito's willpower to avoid Zetsu controlling them, even dying Obito's willpower is far above the one of people like Mei Terumi for example. Let's also not forget how Zetsu has great knowledge of nearly every opponent he can face thanks to the info he gathered. Zetsu can also use Mokuton.

To kill Zetsu you need to be able to actually hit him (which is very difficult due to his great movement speed and mobility with Kagero and with his reflexes and sensory skills) in first place and to make enough damage to erase him or have hax to defeat him (cutting him in half for example does nothing to him): you need attacks like Bijuu Dama to destroy him or hax like Kamui to take him out, but most people don't have things like that. Most people aren't actually able to put down Zetsu and to avoid him possessing them or sucking their chakra. I don't really see how Mu, 3rd Raikage, 2nd Mizukage, MS Sasuke, SM Naruto, Onoki, Jiraiya, Kakuzu, Hebi Sasuke, Deidara, Sasori, Shippuden and War Gaara, Fuuton training Naruto, Part 1 Kakashi, Old Hiruzen, Hidan, Konan, Darui, Tsunade, Mei Terumi, Mifune and below are actually defeating Zetsu for good.

Actually I don't see how Itachi is defeating Zetsu 10 times on 10. Zetsu is definitely able to react to his speed, if he could react to faster characters than Itachi. Zetsu can laugh about Itachi's base skills, since kunai, Suiton or Katon aren't doing shit to him, and he can dodge them anyway, but anyway he isn't taking any damage. He can fight as a jelly avoiding eye contact and so Sharingan genjutsu. He can move dodging Susanoo, Totsuka sword and Amaterasu, and even if it Susanoo can cut him in half and still do nothing, Amaterasu can kill him and he will just take out the part and be fine, only Totsuka will defeat him by sealing, but is it actually hitting him? I don't believe by feats. If Itachi doesn't manage to make a strategy to hit him with Totsuka or Tsukuyomi he can lose by being outlasted or by having his chakra drained, especially as he nearly faints everytime he uses Mangekyo, as seen in his fight with Sasuke, and even in part 1 he showed signs of great fatigue.

Minato too won't have an easy time. We already witnessed that Zetsu is able to react to his speed, Minato can manage to hit him with Hiraishin by setting marks and using his marked kunai, but a Rasengan or a kunai slash will do shit to Zetsu. Minato will win only with Shisho Fuuin.

I can see only god tiers, top tiers, and people like MS/MS + Rinnegan Obito (Kamui), War Arc 1MS Kakashi (Kamui), Nagato (Chibaku Tensei), BM/BSM Naruto (Bijuu Dama, Cho Odama Rasenshuriken), 7th Gate Gai (blitz + Hiru Tora + Asa Kujaku) and so on winning against Zetsu 10 times on 10.


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## Kurak (Oct 11, 2015)

1. Obito (war arc, before he is below Nagato) 
2. Nagato 
3. Itachi
4. Orochimaru
5. Sasori
6. Deidara
7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu 
9. Konan
10. Hidan
11. Zetsu


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## Godaime Tsunade (Oct 11, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Zetsu above hidan?



Zetsu doesn't have blood for a start, so Hidan's only worthwhile jutsu is useless. Zetsu can hide in the ground, split itself apart, create roots to trap, strangle or suck chakra. Plus White Zetsu can meld itself around foes and suck chakra too. Basically, Zetsu is impervious to Hidan's cuts and scrapes, and can kill or KO him by chakra exhaustion. Remember, Black Zetsu alone held off Mei Terumi, a Naruto Bunshin, Chojuro, Genma and a bunch of fodders by itself for some time.  



> Konan above Sasori?



How would you propose Sasori defeat Konan? If he tries to injure her she can merely degenerate into thousands of paper sheets. That also means he can't poison her. And his flamethrowers won't do much either, because she came out unharmed when Jiraiya used a Katon on her.

On the other hand, she has explosives, and can ambush him with sharp projectiles. 

This is a conversation for the BD, though.​​


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## Ghoztly (Oct 11, 2015)

Zetsu's utility makes him one of the better members imo, that's why I didn't know where to place him on my list. He's far more powerful than Hidan.


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2015)

I would rank him like that. For the aforementioned reasons and feats. Maybe even higher.

Obito
Six Paths of Pain (Nagato)
Itachi

Zetsu / Kisame / Orochimaru
Kakuzu / Sasori / Deidara
Konan
Hidan

Great mobility and incredibly hard to kill for most. He can outlast people or troll them. But is incredibly underrated just because he doesn't have big flashy moves.


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## Matty (Oct 11, 2015)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> How would you propose Sasori defeat Konan? If he tries to injure her she can merely degenerate into thousands of paper sheets. That also means he can't poison her. And his flamethrowers won't do much either, because she came out unharmed when Jiraiya used a Katon on her.
> 
> On the other hand, she has explosives, and can ambush him with sharp projectiles.
> 
> This is a conversation for the BD, though.​​




It's not about how Sasori can beat Konan. Sasori can beat a lot more people than Konan can. He is a stronger and overall more balanced fighter. I am obviously biased, sometimes, but I am not in this scenario. That's like saying Gai physically can't do anything to Suigetsu, so Suigetsu is better


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## Empathy (Oct 11, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Only someone that's completely invincible could beat that version of Obito.





Don't pretend like you expected that to go unnoticed.


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> It's not about how Sasori can beat Konan. Sasori can beat a lot more people than Konan can. He is a stronger and overall more balanced fighter. I am obviously biased, sometimes, but I am not in this scenario. That's like saying Gai physically can't do anything to Suigetsu, so Suigetsu is better



I agree with you.

But you are uncorrect on one thing: Gai can casually stomp Suigetsu even if the Kirigakure boy is some kind of a Water Logia. With Asa Kujaku, Gai could vaporize 1000 Suiton sharks of Kisame's Suiton: Senshokuko (probably powered too thanks to the chakra from the Hachibi) even if water > fire. Suigetsu is made of water and his body is gonna get vaporized, literally. Not to mention that Gai even fighting in base can simply stomp Suigetsu's ass until Suigetsu can's sustain his Suika no jutsu anymore.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

This is my first ever post in a thread!!!!

1. Orochimaru
2. Nagato/Pain
3. Itachi
4. Obito
5. Sasori
6. Deidara
7. Kisame
8. Kakuzu
9. Konan
10. Hidan


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> This is my first ever post in a thread!!!!
> 
> 1. Orochimaru
> 2. Nagato/Pain
> ...



And, let me say, it's wrong.

It's true than Orochimaru can summon Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and fodder Hiruzen on his part, but he can't control Hashirama, and anyway, there are people that can defeat him before he can summon or while he is summoning. Obito can warp with Kamui behind him and suck him him. Nagato can Chibaku Tensei him. Itachi can Totsuka him. Out of Edo Tensei, Nagato or Obito can easily defeat Orochimaru and so can do Itachi, even canonically.

Obito is far above Itachi (with Kamui well Itachi simply can't hit him and Obito has far more chakra so can easily outlast him also or just take advantage of when Itachi fails with his Mangekyo, enter Susanoo and warp him) and is above Nagato/Six Paths of Pain too.

Kisame was able to fight very well against Killer B and to at least be a serious challenge for Gai. Sasori, even if he was surely stronger than them, couldn't just stomp Chiyo and Sakura, something that Kisame would have easily done. Sasori is not above Kisame, definitely.


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## IzayaOrihara (Oct 11, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> And, let me say, it's wrong.
> 
> It's true than Orochimaru can summon Hashirama, Tobirama, Minato and fodder Hiruzen on his part, but he can't control Hashirama, and anyway, there are people that can defeat him before he can summon or while he is summoning. Obito can warp with Kamui behind him and suck him him. Nagato can Chibaku Tensei him. Itachi can Totsuka him. Out of Edo Tensei, Nagato or Obito can easily defeat Orochimaru and so can do Itachi, even canonically.
> 
> ...


Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya and Pain said Jiraiya was stronger than him, that he would never have won if he had Intel. So Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Pain/Nagato. 

By the way, I just made a thread like 15 mins ago and it got locked. Anyone know why. The thread is a Battledome thread and was called: OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI: AN IN-DEPTH OROCHIMARU ANALYSIS. I'm so confused as to why my first ever thread just got locked for no reason.

Please help. I need to know why



Raikiri19 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> But you are uncorrect on one thing: Gai can casually stomp Suigetsu even if the Kirigakure boy is some kind of a Water Logia. With Asa Kujaku, Gai could vaporize 1000 Suiton sharks of Kisame's Suiton: Senshokuko (probably powered too thanks to the chakra from the Hachibi) even if water > fire. Suigetsu is made of water and his body is gonna get vaporized, literally. Not to mention that Gai even fighting in base can simply stomp Suigetsu's ass until Suigetsu can's sustain his Suika no jutsu anymore.


Exactly.



IzayaOrihara said:


> Orochimaru is stronger than Jiraiya and Pain said Jiraiya was stronger than him, that he would never have won if he had Intel. So Orochimaru > Jiraiya > Pain/Nagato.
> 
> By the way, I just made a thread like 15 mins ago and it got locked. Anyone know why. The thread is a Battledome thread and was called: OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI: AN IN-DEPTH OROCHIMARU ANALYSIS. I'm so confused as to why my first ever thread just got locked for no reason.


I'm really annoyed. I spent so much time making that thread. It was one of those essay kind of threads. And it just got locked. Why?


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## Matty (Oct 11, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> I agree with you.
> 
> But you are uncorrect on one thing: Gai can casually stomp Suigetsu even if the Kirigakure boy is some kind of a Water Logia. With Asa Kujaku, Gai could vaporize 1000 Suiton sharks of Kisame's Suiton: Senshokuko (probably powered too thanks to the chakra from the Hachibi) even if water > fire. Suigetsu is made of water and his body is gonna get vaporized, literally. Not to mention that Gai even fighting in base can simply stomp Suigetsu's ass until Suigetsu can's sustain his Suika no jutsu anymore.



Yea, Raikiri, I understand that was just the first thing I thought of as an example, I think Kimimaro would have been a better example. Kimi is stronger than Suigetsu (To me at least) but Kimi cant do much to him. It doesn't mean Suigetsu is better though.


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## Mercurial (Oct 11, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Yea, Raikiri, I understand that was just the first thing I thought of as an example, I think Kimimaro would have been a better example. Kimi is stronger than Suigetsu (To me at least) but Kimi cant do much to him. It doesn't mean Suigetsu is better though.



Oh well then. Fair point.

@IzayaOrihara I guess because the mods felt it was unbalanced. As actually Itachi is much stronger than Orochimaru, after all.


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## Ryuzaki (Oct 11, 2015)

Empathy said:


> Don't pretend like you expected that to go unnoticed.





Komn, you sack of shit.


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## T-Bag (Oct 11, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> By the way, I just made a thread like 15 mins ago and it got locked. Anyone know why. The thread is a Battledome thread and was called: OROCHIMARU IS STRONGER THAN ITACHI: AN IN-DEPTH OROCHIMARU ANALYSIS. I'm so confused as to why my first ever thread just got locked for no reason.



Gee. I wonder why.


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## Empathy (Oct 13, 2015)

Ryuzaki said:


> Komn, you sack of shit.



That wasn't Kom's post, but I agree.


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## ARGUS (Oct 13, 2015)

i used to think that itachi had chance agianst MS obito, but lately i seriously dont think that to be the case as itachi has his chances (especially with intel) 

 -- using clones all situated near itachi, eliminates the possibility of kamui warp, since itachi and his clones strike the second obito solidfies to attack. If itachi doesnt seem to have clones around, then the original instantly creates a susanoo hand and smacks obito down on the ground the second he attempts to attack

 -- Itachi manages to fool even DSM Kabuto with his crow clones. If Obito gets caught off guard and warps a clone then his kamui gets out of commisson as there is a high risk of him getting atacked from both sides

 -- using izanagi is probably the dumbest thing obito could do as itachi cann just use izanami to counter him even more. Itachi can also just prep izanami by snap shotting instances of their CQC instances or any instance from their fight till obito gets caught within the loop and its over. 

the only issue lies with itachi using his MS techniques and the stamina issue. intel also plays a huge factor but if itachi is edo then MS Obito really isnt beating him


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 14, 2015)

ARGUS he has no knowledge Obito can even phase. Kakashi was watching him with Obito's other Sharingan and didn't understand what his ability was, when he was solid or not solid, or that he had to completely solidify to warp an opponent.

After battling him extensively in the war he began to understand that he could not touch Naruto while he was phasing through an attack because he observed it multiple times, even Gai took notice and that's when KCM Naruto surprise attacked him as Gai allowed him to warp the Soshuga, which guaranteed that he would remain solidified for KCM Naruto's attack. 

Itachi doesn't even know not to block or to touch Obito, he's not going to use bunshin to exploit a weakness he doesn't know is there. More often than not he's warped early in the battle as he blocks Obito or attempts to outmaneuver him in-close which results in a phase-through and body grab. The unpredictability of an initial phase cannot be underestimated, this gives Obito a great chance at grabbing Itachi who won't be prepared for Obito moving through his first attack.

Try to reset your mindset to the first time Tobi survived Hebi Sasuke's Katana Swing. What did you think? Did you think Tobi was immortal? Did you think Tobi had god-like regeneration? Did you think it was Genjutsu? Did you think he was intangible?

That's what Itachi will be dealing with, the only difference is
1. He thinks it's Madara
2. He won't know he's whatever he is (immortal, highly regenerative, highly durable, intangible- take your pick) until he moves through his attack and is attempting to grab him.

Here's an interesting thing that can happen. Itachi opens up with a fireball, Obito walks through it while intangible, what does Itachi think? Well, he might think
1. He's extremely durable/physically strong and just walked through the damage and physical force of the fire as it did nothing to him
2. He can absorb chakra around his body allowing him to move through the fireball
3. He can heal instantly
4. He can move through attacks 
5. He was caught in a genjutsu and didn't actually use that fireball 

There's not even a guarantee he'll know that he's intangible after he walks through one of his attacks. 

Now if it's a kunai he goes through, a Susano hand or something like that it's more likely he thinks he can move through attacks as appose to the other options. 

He will, however, never know about his ability to warp through touch until he's already being warped while touched, in which case he has no chance at escaping it. If he doesn't know about grab warping until he's grab warped, he will not know about Obito having to be completely solidified to grab warp- and thus the strategy to counter-act it (bunshins) isn't even a possibility.


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## Sadgoob (Oct 14, 2015)

Empathy said:


> That wasn't Kom's post, but I agree.



I think he was just calling Kom a sack of shit, unrelated to what he quoted.

It checks out.


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## Sans (Oct 15, 2015)

I wasn't even posting in this thread you fucks.


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