# Tobirama vs EMS Sasuke (pre-Perfect Susano'o)



## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 19, 2014)

Battlefield: Valley of the End
Starting Distance: 50 meters
Restrictions: Edo Tensei
Knowledge: Rep for both

Who wins? Its this incarnation of Sasuke.


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## Shinryu (Jun 19, 2014)

Tobirama can Hiraishin blitz Sasuke before he can even activate Susanoo.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2014)

Madara probably wins. @>@

Tobirama was scared of him way so much to think he can win this. U_U


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 19, 2014)

^ Uh this is Sasuke, Hussain, not Madara.


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## SharinganKisame (Jun 19, 2014)

Restricting ET for Tobi is restricting his strongest offensive jutsu gojo kibakufuda... I see him winning with Hiraishingiri gg only before sasuke activates susanoo.. I don't know what in Tobirama's arsenal is strong enough to break this susanoo.. maybe 4-5 KBs all using suiton suidanha would break it? It was able to cut god tree branches, 4-5 could work on this susanoo. If not then sasuke gets the win.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> ^ Uh this is Sasuke, Hussain, not Madara.



ops, @.@

Tobirama still loses though without ET.
with his explosion tags, however, he wins. U_U


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## Cognitios (Jun 19, 2014)

I'd give it to Sasuke high diff.
We know Tobirama can hold his own against an experience MS user like Izuna and even best some. 
EMS Sasuke just has the edge he needs.
EMS Sasuke = MS Madara > MS Izuna = Tobirama


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2014)

Izuna is not equal to Tobirama, he is inferior.


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## Cognitios (Jun 19, 2014)

> Izuna is not equal to Tobirama, he is inferior.


A 24 hour standstill and Tobirama comes out victorious their pretty damn close to equal.
At the end of part one Sasuke/Naruto had a fight, sasuke walked away but they were equal


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> A 24 hour standstill and Tobirama comes out victorious their pretty damn close to equal.
> At the end of part one Sasuke/Naruto had a fight, sasuke walked away but they were equal


Wasn't that an entirely separate battle, Cognitos? The 24 hour battle was between Hashirama and Madara _after_ Madara had gained Izuna's eyes after Izuna had died.


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## Cognitios (Jun 19, 2014)

> Wasn't that an entirely separate battle, Cognitos? The 24 hour battle was between Hashirama and Madara after Madara had gained Izuna's eyes after Izuna had died.


Amaterasu
Says after a full day of fighting on the top left panel.
I can see it being 12 hours, but still.


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> A 24 hour standstill and Tobirama comes out victorious their pretty damn close to equal.
> At the end of part one Sasuke/Naruto had a fight, sasuke walked away but they were equal



That's the battle for the whole clan.  

and I believed that you think people became significantly stronger if they live longer
why does not that work in Tobirama's case? Did not he live several decades after Izuna?


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## Veracity (Jun 19, 2014)

This version of Sasuke ? Lol Tobirama wins.

Sasukes biggest advantage was AMA spam, but that can be canonically dealt with via FTG.

With FTG lvl 2 FTG tagged KB, Tobirama can close the distance gap to warp Sussano and then tag the everlasting shit out of Sasuke through KB. From then on it's Thunder god slash GG.


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## Cognitios (Jun 19, 2014)

> That's the battle for the whole clan.
> 
> and I believed that you think people became significantly stronger if they lives longer
> why does not work in Tobirama's case? Did not he live several decades after Izuna?


I believe experience helps out. I also take into account Kishi's absolute obsession with parallels. 
Kishi view MS Izuna = Tobirama, it's kind of been shoved in our throats a bit. Just as Hashirama = Madara.


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## MusubiKazesaru (Jun 19, 2014)

Sauce takes this one, Tobirama gets too much hype around here. I don't see him breaking Susanoo with anything in his arsenal, just like base Minato, Tobirama is lacking fire power


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## Trojan (Jun 19, 2014)

parallels have nothing to do with power. 

Madara became significantly stronger than Hashirama, 
Both Guy and Obito are much stronger than Kakashi. 

you can draw parallels for everyone in the manga and link them together one way or the other.
That still does not prove anything whatsoever.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 19, 2014)

Cognitios said:


> Amaterasu
> Says after a full day of fighting on the top left panel.
> I can see it being 12 hours, but still.


...Izuna was dead _before_ that.



Cognitios said:


> I believe experience helps out. I also take into account Kishi's absolute obsession with parallels.
> Kishi view MS Izuna = Tobirama, it's kind of been shoved in our throats a bit. Just as Hashirama = Madara.


No, Kishimoto's shoved down our throats the Senju were superior to the Uchiha at every turn. Hashirama could battle Madara to a standstill without killing intent, Tobirama kills MS Izuna in a single move, etc.



MusubiKazesaru said:


> Sauce takes this one, Tobirama gets too much hype around here. I don't see him breaking Susanoo with anything in his arsenal, just like base Minato, Tobirama is lacking fire power


What's stopping Tobirama just from outlasting Sasuke or _drowning_ him with his Suitons? We've seen a Sutions weaker than Tobirama's drown out Sasuke's Susano'o.


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## ARGUS (Jun 19, 2014)

Sasuke wins this 
I'll provide my reasoning if required


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## Nikushimi (Jun 19, 2014)

Sasuke wins. He can spam Enton Magatama to any of Tobirama's Hiraishin seals and burn him wherever he warps, or just use it to restrict his ability to use that Jutsu altogether and then nail him directly.


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## Krippy (Jun 19, 2014)

What the hell is "pre-PS"?

He could use PS as soon as he acquired EMS.


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## LeBoyka (Jun 19, 2014)

Sasuke wins this High-Difficulty.

Although, Tobirama can get passed Susanoo. If he can somehow manage to make contact with it, he could just warp it away or perhaps teleport within it. _But that's unlikely_; he's gonna be doing a lot of running and dodging. Unlike Minato, poor Tobirama doesn't have access to summons or an S/T Barrier or SM. Literally his only chance is to outlast Sasuke or somehow manage to teleport inside or warp away Susanoo. While Sasuke can kill him via easier means.


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## Ersa (Jun 19, 2014)

Sasuke wins high difficulty. 

He can spam Enton Magatama to wherever Tobirama places Hiraishin seals and simply outlast him. Despite being Senju, Tobirama's stamina feats have not impressed me in the least and Sasuke has the edge here. Being ragdolled by a god tier; having spent chakra on both summons and EMS spam then having more then enough to conjure Perfect Susanoo is far superior to any stamina feat Tobirama has shown.


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## Veracity (Jun 19, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Sasuke wins high difficulty.
> 
> He can spam Enton Magatama to wherever Tobirama places Hiraishin seals and simply outlast him. Despite being Senju, Tobirama's stamina feats have not impressed me in the least and Sasuke has the edge here. Being ragdolled by a god tier; having spent chakra on both summons and EMS spam then having more then enough to conjure Perfect Susanoo is far superior to any stamina feat Tobirama has shown.



What stamina feats do you expect Tobirama to have ? He's been Edo his entire appearance practically. Aside from that he was able to crack a large portion of a building by simply touching it( obvious implied chakra feat) and was able to participate in a clan war that lasted 24 hours. He's also a damn Senju.


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## Ersa (Jun 19, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> What stamina feats do you expect Tobirama to have ? He's been Edo his entire appearance practically. Aside from that he was able to crack a large portion of a building by simply touching it( obvious implied chakra feat) and was able to participate in a clan war that lasted 24 hours. He's also a damn Senju.


Sasuke has better stamina feats and has the hype of coming close to Madara who pushed someone with Kyuubi levels of chakra (Hashirama) to his absolute limit.

The guy pulls out Enton and final Susanoo for fodders, jutsu which were previously his trump cards and extremely taxing and the only instance in the manga where he was shown to be even remotely fatigued was after a Juubi Jin decided to slam him into the ground which means little as BSM Naruto look equally exhausted there.

People really underestimate how crazy his stamina has been since getting EMS.


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## Veracity (Jun 20, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> Sasuke has better stamina feats and has the hype of coming close to Madara who pushed someone with Kyuubi levels of chakra (Hashirama) to his absolute limit.
> 
> The guy pulls out Enton and final Susanoo for fodders, jutsu which were previously his trump cards and extremely taxing and the only instance in the manga where he was shown to be even remotely fatigued was after a Juubi Jin decided to slam him into the ground which means little as BSM Naruto look equally exhausted there.
> 
> People really underestimate how crazy his stamina has been since getting EMS.



Ehhh. There are many ways I could simply argue against that. But I somewhat agree that Sasuke has a ridiculous amount of chakra or more so his MS techniques dont wear his body down as much. I wouldn't necessarily put either above eachother.


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## Fiiction (Jun 20, 2014)

Krippy said:


> What the hell is "pre-PS"?
> 
> He could use PS as soon as he acquired EMS.



No he couldn't, he needed Naruto's cloak.


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## ARGUS (Jun 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> This version of Sasuke ? Lol Tobirama wins.


Sasuke surpassed Tobirama after gaining EMS,


> Sasukes biggest advantage was AMA spam, but that can be canonically dealt with via FTG.


--he floods the battlefield with enton, and can make  the battlefield his terrain, as the  enton surrounded in the location makes it difficult for tobirama to land a hit since it can bypass the limits of FTG,,,,

--he can use his V3/V4 bijuu sized susanoo to overwhelm tobirama, as the enton magatamas, enton arrows, kagutsuchi, enton orbs and amaterasu have more than enough AOE thus allowing Sasuke to land an effective blow on Tobirama

--Suitons are useless they are not bypassing any susanoo above V2

--Tobirama doesnt have GKF  here as well which makes sasukes victory certain


> With FTG lvl 2 FTG tagged KB, Tobirama can close the distance gap to warp Sussano and then tag the everlasting shit out of Sasuke through KB. From then on it's Thunder god slash GG.


Susanoo teleporting is meaningless due to the following reason: 
1. To teleport the user out of their susanoo, the FTG user has to teleport WITH the susanoo, with that being said, by the time susanoo is teleported by tobirama, he still has to FTG right back at sasuke, and seeing that susanoo formation speed has been close to the speed of light is why the susanoo would be reformed,,, before tobirama gets the opening

2.. Enton coating in the susanoo prevents tobirama to land physical contact with the susanoo and if used by KB the clone would simply poof


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## Gilgamesh (Jun 20, 2014)

> Sasuke surpassed Tobirama after gaining EMS,



Prove it because i saw Sasuke shit himself when Tobirama flared his chakra and lifted a finger


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## ARGUS (Jun 20, 2014)

Gilgamesh said:


> Prove it because i saw Sasuke shit himself when Tobirama flared his chakra and lifted a finger



I have proven it.. Read my whole post


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## Krippy (Jun 20, 2014)

Fiiction said:


> No he couldn't, he needed Naruto's cloak.



Hahahahaha.

No.

Anyway, Tobirama is around the level of Itachi/MS Sasuke.  EMS w/o PS should win mid-high diff.


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## Danzio (Jun 20, 2014)

Based on feats Tobirama will take him out the same way he did Izuna.

Tobirama's speed and arsenal negate Sasuke's highly effective spamming techniques.


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## Blu-ray (Jun 20, 2014)

I can see it going either way to be honest. Tobirama definitely has some effective tools for dealing with Sasuke, as Sasuke's genjutsu will do shit to him, and that is the tool he always used to secure his victory. Actually hitting Tobirama directly isn't possible either. Then again, Sasuke's got tools for dealing with Tobirama too. Amaterasu spam on the battlefield will not only cover Tobirama's markings but will give Tobirama less running space. He's also overcome that pesky weakness he had against speedsters thanks to his new eyes. Tobirama needs to physically touch Susano'o to warp it, and Sasuke's ability to clad it in flames makes that impossible to do without sacrificing a limb. Tobirama also lacks the power to get past it without Edo Tensei. I can see Sasuke eventually cornering him. Tobirama wins if he gets a mark on Sasuke though.



Danzio said:


> Based on feats Tobirama will take him out the same way he did Izuna.
> 
> Tobirama speed and arsenal negates Sasuke's highly effective spamming techniques.



Based on what feats? Izuna is featless, so he can't be compared to Sasuke.


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## Danzio (Jun 20, 2014)

VolatileSoul said:


> Based on what feats? Izuna is featless, so he can't be compared to Sasuke.




I'm saying hiraishingiri will do him in.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> --he can use his V3/V4 bijuu sized susanoo to overwhelm tobirama, as the enton magatamas, enton arrows, kagutsuchi, enton orbs and amaterasu have more than enough AOE thus allowing Sasuke to land an effective blow on Tobirama


Early EMS Sasuke lacked the Biju-sized V3 Susano'o (which he only gained _after_ recieving Naruto's chakra which powered him up).

And all that AOE doesn't mean anything if Tobirama can teleport himself. Basically nothing in Sasuke's arsenal can hit him.


> --Suitons are useless they are not bypassing any susanoo above V2


Proof? Tobirama could drown out Sasuke in his Susano'o. Hell if Tobirama uses Suiton: Suidanha to slice through it. Not to mention at the Valley of the End Tobirama has an _entire lake_ to supplement and increase the power and ferocity of his Suitons.


> --Tobirama doesnt have GKF  here as well which makes sasukes victory certain


What's stopping Tobirama from replicating it by using a summoning Explosive Tag combo? 


> Susanoo teleporting is meaningless due to the following reason:
> 1. To teleport the user out of their susanoo, the FTG user has to teleport WITH the susanoo, with that being said, by the time susanoo is teleported by tobirama, he still has to FTG right back at sasuke, and seeing that susanoo formation speed has been close to the speed of light is why the susanoo would be reformed,,, before tobirama gets the opening


Susano'o formation is no where close to the speed of light. Only Eight Gated Gai approach that speed given he could warp the space around him with pure speed. 

Teleportation is also literally instant. Tobirama taps Susano'o, teleports it away and Sasuke is unable to react to the Hiraishingiri follow up.


> 2.. Enton coating in the susanoo prevents tobirama to land physical contact with the susanoo and if used by KB the clone would simply poof


...Tobirama was able to grab onto an exploding Gudodama without any damage, and Hiraishin's speed makes it that even Amaterasu can't stick onto the Hiraishin user.


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## Veracity (Jun 20, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Sasuke surpassed Tobirama after gaining EMS,
> 
> --he floods the battlefield with enton, and can make  the battlefield his terrain, as the  enton surrounded in the location makes it difficult for tobirama to land a hit since it can bypass the limits of FTG,,,,
> 
> ...



False. This version of EMS Sasuke has shit tier reactions and no PS.

This valley of the end meaning the battlefield is filled with water. Not only this but "flooding " the battlefield with Enton would take a ridiculous amount of chakra . True Sasuke can spam Enton a bunch, but the valley of end can fit a multitude of Lord Kurama inside it.

All of which you named can be dodged casually by Tobirama. A weaker Edo version of himself was able to shunshin faster then KCM Minato can move his arm. Not only this , but with FTG in conjunction with his KB, he always has somewhere to teleport making Sasukes "terrain " chance almost useless.

If Tobirama is hit by Enton or Amaterasu, he canonically FTG'd off his body.

Suitons are used to block LoS allowing Sasuke to not know where Tobirama is.

Infinite explosion isn't needed when Sasuke gets bisected.

That's why Tobirama uses a KB to FTG the Sussano apart. Tobirama also hand speed fast enough to warp Sussano and Amaterasu before his KB pop. Also if he FTG's away the Amaterasu goes away.

When has Sasuke fully coated his Sussano in AMA? Even if he did, Tobirama simply teleports with the flame AMA.

Tobirama simply FTG tags a KB, send this Kage Bunshin to Sasukes Sussano. The KB teleports the Sussano and AMA, and and right before the KB teleports away, Tobirama teleports to the KB. Sasuke is fucked considering he doesn't have the time to realize his Sussano gets warped before Tobiramas is already standing beside him.  From there on Tobirama just tags Sasuke and warps back to his KB. Then it's over. Or he could have a tea party while his Kage Bunshin's do it for him. You don't realize how hax Minato and Tobirama are with Kage Bunshin. They could win without FTG lvl 2.


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## ARGUS (Jun 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Early EMS Sasuke lacked the Biju-sized V3 Susano'o (which he only gained _after_ recieving Naruto's chakra which powered him up).


He doesnt need the legged susanoo V3, MS Sasuke alone showed his V4 which has the ability to give him the win
--Narutos chakra didnt aid sasuke in getting the V3,, it perhaps helped him get the PS but any variant before that can still be made,, the only difference would be that the kyuubis chakra would increase its durability and size,,, which isnt the problem here since tobirama has no way to breach his susanoo,,


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> And all that AOE doesn't mean anything if Tobirama can teleport himself. Basically nothing in Sasuke's arsenal can hit him.


AOE is the main counter for FTG,, since itlll bypass the  limits to where they can teleport meaning that they would  have to either tank the attack or counter it by some other means


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Proof? Tobirama could drown out Sasuke in his Susano'o. Hell if Tobirama uses Suiton: Suidanha to slice through it. Not to mention at the Valley of the End Tobirama has an _entire lake_ to supplement and increase the power and ferocity of his Suitons.


You say ''proof'' yet you claim that  tobirama can ''drown'' sasuke when he lacks any ''large scale suiton feats'',,,
Suitons mean jack shit,, the fact that u think Suiton Suidanha  can breach any susanoo above V2 is laughable,,, Having the entire  lake supplementt.. yet it is still a closed terrain, meaning sasuke can cover the AOE and coutner FTG


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> What's stopping Tobirama from replicating it by using a summoning Explosive Tag combo?


the fact that tobirama doesnt have the luxury of an edo body to use such technique and the fact that the OP hasnt given tobirama any prep at all to summon edos, is why he cant use GKF  here


SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Susano'o formation is no where close to the speed of light. Only Eight Gated Gai approach that speed given he could warp the space around him with pure speed. ]/QUOTE]
> Yes it is,,Itachi formed his susanoo to defend against kirin on time,,
> kirin = lightning,  - you do the math
> 
> ...


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## Ersa (Jun 20, 2014)

How the fuck does this Sasuke have shit reactions?

You actually think he magically got the reflexes to track Juubito who even BSM Naruto struggled to follow? No, he may have adjusted better to his eyes after the Kabuto fight but it was never noted to be anything major. It's a joke to think Tobirama can blitz Sasuke when the dude conjured ribcage Susanoo faster then KCM Minato could swipe his arm. Base Minato alone is comparable to Tobirama in speed and KCM runs circles around him.

And using MS Izuna as a reason for Sasuke losing is not really evidence as he has EMS and was portrayed to be on track to surpass Madara. Izuna is irrelevant here.


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## Dr. White (Jun 20, 2014)

Sauce takes this High diff


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## Empathy (Jun 20, 2014)

I'd give it to Sasuke slightly based on portrayal; not sure how it'd work out with feats, though.


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## Magicbullet (Jun 20, 2014)

SuperSaiyaMan12 said:


> Who wins? Its this incarnation of Sasuke.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Jun 20, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> He doesnt need the legged susanoo V3, MS Sasuke alone showed his V4 which has the ability to give him the win


Which Tobirama can strip from him on a whim. And his Suiton variants give him enough oomph and firepower to drown out Sasuke's Susano'o.


> --Narutos chakra didnt aid sasuke in getting the V3,, it perhaps helped him get the PS but any variant before that can still be made,, the only difference would be that the kyuubis chakra would increase its durability and size,,, which isnt the problem here since tobirama has no way to breach his susanoo,,


Naruto's chakra DID help Sasuke. It made his V3 Susano'o grow to Biju Size. Thinking that Naruto didn't help him there is really frustrating.

And again, Tobirama has several ways around Susano'o and has the firepower to break through it.


> AOE is the main counter for FTG,, since itlll bypass the  limits to where they can teleport meaning that they would  have to either tank the attack or counter it by some other means


Really now? Prove it, show an AOE attack counter for FTG and you'll have an argument. Nothing in the manga shows that.


> You say ''proof'' yet you claim that  tobirama can ''drown'' sasuke when he lacks any ''large scale suiton feats'',,,


We've seen a weaker Suiton drown out Sasuke's Susano'o. An EMS Susano'o at that. Tobirama has an ENTIRE LAKE AND RIVER AND WATERFALL to draw upon too.


> Suitons mean jack shit,, the fact that u think Suiton Suidanha  can breach any susanoo above V2 is laughable,,, Having the entire  lake supplementt.. yet it is still a closed terrain, meaning sasuke can cover the AOE and coutner FTG


1. Suiton: Suidanha was cutting through the fricking _god tree_ like it was a hot knife through butter. Sasuke's Susano'o levels are cut to ribbons.
2. Show a scan of an AOE attack countering Hiraishin. Come on, show it.


> the fact that tobirama doesnt have the luxury of an edo body to use such technique and the fact that the OP hasnt given tobirama any prep at all to summon edos, is why he cant use GKF  here


Tobirama was able to plaster Juubito with the summoning explosive tags faster than Juubito could see. He can do the same without an Edo body or using a Kage Bushin on Sasuke whose magnitudes slower than Juubito.


> Yes it is,,Itachi formed his susanoo to defend against kirin on time,,
> kirin = lightning,  - you do the math


First of all: Lightning isnt' anywhere near the speed of light. Its far slower. Secondly, lightning traveling from the atmosphere to Earth takes a few seconds, its not instant. And third Itachi was given more than enough time to make his Susano'o due to Sasuke giving him enough time to prepare.

Susano'o being taken instantly away by Tobirama teleporting, then Tobirama reappearing back on the spot is faster than any reactions Sasuke has went up against.


> Tobirama has to teleport  WITH  the susanoo, meaning that if he does  manage to teleport the susanoo, he has to go to the other location with it,,, and then he has to teleport back to the location with sasuke, in-order to attack him,,, this gives sasuke more than enough time to form susanoo and defend himself,,


No, it doesn't. Hiraishin is instant due to it being teleportation. Sasuke would be covered with Susano'o for a second, Tobirama taps it to teleport it away and then he attacks with Hiraishingiri while Sasuke is too slow to react.


> FTG slash is only helpful when sasuke doesnt have susanoo up, and tobirama has markings under a 5m radius from sasuke


Sasuke won't have Susano'o up. It'll be stripped from him and he'd be left vulnerable. That's the idea of this combo.


> Tobirama  is NOT an edo here, he doesnt have the luxury to get hit by attacks like this,,


Question: Was Tobirama regenerating at all from Amaterasu or the Gudodama grab? If not, then it doesn't matter if he was an Edo or not, he could do it in life.


> TSB were grabbed however that was an edo form, and a KB,  which got  poofed anyways, despite the slight 2 seconds interval,


You do remember Gudodama's properties right? If Tobirama could grab it, Edo or not, even temporarily without being _damaged_, his durability or reactions are off the charts.


> what do you mean Amaterasu doesnt stick to the user????


Lets say Amaterasu does hit despite Hiraishin. Tobirama would teleport away, leaving the flames stuck in the air instead of _on him._


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## Ersa (Jun 20, 2014)

Sasuke creating Perfect Susanoo without the cloak suggests that his Bijuu-sized V3 was a product of his own power and not the cloak just saying.


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## Veracity (Jun 20, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> How the fuck does this Sasuke have shit reactions?
> 
> You actually think he magically got the reflexes to track Juubito who even BSM Naruto struggled to follow? No, he may have adjusted better to his eyes after the Kabuto fight but it was never noted to be anything major. It's a joke to think Tobirama can blitz Sasuke when the dude conjured ribcage Susanoo faster then KCM Minato could swipe his arm. Base Minato alone is comparable to Tobirama in speed and KCM runs circles around him.
> 
> And using MS Izuna as a reason for Sasuke losing is not really evidence as he has EMS and was portrayed to be on track to surpass Madara. Izuna is irrelevant here.



Not sure who you are quoting here. But I don't actually think his reactions are shit tier. Just less then Tobirama. 

And yes Sasukes reactions did get a substantial increase from his Kabuto fight. You act as if it needs to he logic anymore. It really doesn't at all. It's Kishis manga, and he does whatever he wants. It's the reason Gai can go from being pressured by Edo Madara to pressuring Juubi Madara. 

Tobirama could tag Juubito 5 times during his shunshin. If Sasukes Sussano disappears then he gets straight up arm blitzed by Tobirama and there's virtually nothing he can do. Also you really can't yse any feats from Juubi arc Sasuke to aid Kabuto arc Sasuke in battle. His ability jumped leaps and bounds.


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## Ersa (Jun 20, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Not sure who you are quoting here. But I don't actually think his reactions are shit tier. Just less then Tobirama.
> 
> And yes Sasukes reactions did get a substantial increase from his Kabuto fight. You act as if it needs to he logic anymore. It really doesn't at all. It's Kishis manga, and he does whatever he wants. It's the reason Gai can go from being pressured by Edo Madara to pressuring Juubi Madara.
> 
> Tobirama could tag Juubito 5 times during his shunshin. If Sasukes Sussano disappears then he gets straight up arm blitzed by Tobirama and there's virtually nothing he can do. Also you really can't yse any feats from Juubi arc Sasuke to aid Kabuto arc Sasuke in battle. His ability jumped leaps and bounds.


On what basis is he inferior? He outperformed Tobirama by leaps and bounds in the Juubito fight. It's a matter of how much you believe he improved in the Kabuto fight and I don't believe it's enough to suggest Tobirama is superior to even this Sauce.

And your interpretation of "he just improved" is subjective and backed by absolutely nothing in the manga. Sure I agree he improved but by a huge amount? Nothing suggests that. Gai could do that because of the 8th Gate power-up, what he did in the 7th Gate amounts to nothing as he got wrecked. Not to mention the Gai who fought Edo Madara was in worse shape too.

Why should his Susanoo formation speed be any different? Also if Sasuke coats his Susanoo in Enton, Tobirama isn't warping shit. He needs to touch Susanoo to warp it.


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## Veracity (Jun 20, 2014)

Ersatz said:


> On what basis is he inferior? He outperformed Tobirama by leaps and bounds in the Juubito fight. It's a matter of how much you believe he improved in the Kabuto fight and I don't believe it's enough to suggest Tobirama is superior to even this Sauce.
> 
> And your interpretation of "he just improved" is subjective and backed by absolutely nothing in the manga. Sure I agree he improved but by a huge amount? Nothing suggests that. Gai could do that because of the 8th Gate power-up, what he did in the 7th Gate amounts to nothing as he got wrecked. Not to mention the Gai who fought Edo Madara was in worse shape too.
> 
> Why should his Susanoo formation speed be any different? Also if Sasuke coats his Susanoo in Enton, Tobirama isn't warping shit. He needs to touch Susanoo to warp it.



Because Juubito arc Sasuke and Kabuto arc Sasuke are much different.


It's backed up purely by his performance are you serious ? He went from getting caught of guard by Kabuto( I mean his Sution really) to tracking Juubito. It's clear  that his performance has increase substantially. Same with Gai. Unless you believe that Itachi can track Juubito( you probably do) then Sasukes reactions jumped leaps and blinds .

It doesn't matter if what he did "amounted to nothing " he was able to get into Juubi Madara's face before he could even move. BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , KCM Minato , and Tobirama couldn't even do that to Juubito together with pure speed. 

They both were in terrible shape. the translation that I've read 
Literally 4 chapters before he used the 7th gate.

Because he forms Sussano through his reactions. Juubi arc Sasuke >>>>>> Kabuto arc Sasuke in reactions. Therefore he forms his Sussano slower.

?Enton canonically doesn't effect an FTG user.
 ?Tobirama can tag Juubito 5 times during shunshin
? Can use KB.

Lol Tobirama isn't scared of no bitch ass Enton Sussano.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Jun 21, 2014)

Genjutsu GG :blindsasuke


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## Complete_Ownage (Jun 21, 2014)

This versions of Sasuke gets murked

Tobirama via moderate difficulty


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## Dr. White (Jun 21, 2014)

Likes boss said:


> Because Juubito arc Sasuke and Kabuto arc Sasuke are much different.


No they aren't the two scenarios are different. Sasuke in the Itachi arc was a fucking mental mess. He wanted to kill Konoha, and then decided he must face Naruto first and kill him. All this because of what Konoha put Itachi/the uchiha clan through. Then out of no where his dead brother (who the last time he saw him, he just so happened to have a death battle with, not knowing he was actually good and cared for him) comes shushining past without even a glance at you. You'd be a little distracted as well. It was clear throughout the whole arc that Sasuke wanted the answers immediately, and was really upset over the whole thing.

In the War arc Sasuke is completely resolved to follow his own path. He has had closure with his brother, talked to the starters of his village, and gained their two cents, and is committed to changing the system based off of their mistakes.



> It's backed up purely by his performance are you serious ? He went from getting caught of guard by Kabuto( I mean his Sution really) to tracking Juubito.


-See above

-You also fail to realize the setting, and restrictions of the fight. Itachi and Sasuke could not harm him or bear risking the ET would end. If they could Kabuto wouldn't have made it into Sage Mode. Even if they did offensive MS users with no drawbacks would have raped him. Kabuto on the other hand was free to cut them in half, crush them, and albeit he couldn't hurt Sasuke he could still cast lethal moves because of the control he had. 

Sasuke couldn't use a huge Susano in the cave either. 

I'll give you that maybe he didn't awaken PS until a certain amount of experience with the eyes but that's it.



> It's clear  that his performance has increase substantially. Same with Gai. Unless you believe that Itachi can track Juubito( you probably do) then Sasukes reactions jumped leaps and blinds .


-Itachi may be able to get Susano up similar to how Sasuke did (futile as it was) but that's all I'd grant him, which wouldn't even change the outcome of the fight.

-Sasuke was actively trying to kill him and knew the world was on the line. I also believe he was amped by Kyuubi and later Juugo as well. 
-Wasn't Sasuke buffed multiple times?



> It doesn't matter if what he did "amounted to nothing " he was able to get into Juubi Madara's face before he could even move. BSM Naruto, EMS Sasuke , KCM Minato , and Tobirama couldn't even do that to Juubito together with pure speed.


Wasn't this after powerup? IIRC Alive Madara lolraped Sasuke with a Rinnengan I believe, then he died and received the power up because of Kabuto's last minute lifeline.


Because he forms Sussano through his reactions. Juubi arc Sasuke >>>>>> Kabuto arc Sasuke in reactions. Therefore he forms his Sussano slower.



> ?Enton canonically doesn't effect an FTG user.


If they get hit then yes it will, they just have a really good defense, but if sauce burns all the tags their done. Also if he spawns fire near your teleport spot, he can just make it into tendrils to tag you once you appear killing you instantly after you hopped out. Considering Itachi's forest burning feat, I'd buy it.



> ?Tobirama can tag Juubito 5 times during shunshin


Impressive but powerscaling dictates anyone near his level of reactions could do something similar or react in that time he did. (like Izuna  )


> ? Can use KB.


Which get burnt to a crisp. Endless enton, and shape manipulation is a crazy ass combo. Combined with susano, and constant threat of genjutsu (which won't hurt Tobirama too much because he is a sensor and expereinced uchiha fighter) which is always there.



> Lol Tobirama isn't scared of no bitch ass Enton Sussano.


Dude, as Orochimaru the psychoanalyst pointed out, Madara instilled a deep running fear into Tobirama; so much so it's almost an obsession. He only saw Madara's Susano...


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## RedChidori (Jun 21, 2014)

ARGUS said:


> Sasuke surpassed Tobirama after gaining EMS,
> 
> --he floods the battlefield with enton, and can make  the battlefield his terrain, as the  enton surrounded in the location makes it difficult for tobirama to land a hit since it can bypass the limits of FTG,,,,
> 
> ...



RedChidori approves  !!!


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## Bonly (Jun 21, 2014)

I'd favor Sasuke more times then not. Tobi can't get through the high level of Susanoo, doesn't carry many kunai or anything like that from what we can tell so less use of Hiraishin like Minato, can't touch Susanoo due to Enton and Enton giving way for a good clean more powerful Kirin as well. It'll be a long fight but I lean towards Sasuke coming out on top.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Jun 21, 2014)

Enton ruins tobirama's chances of winning. Despite being able to warp around it won't matter when there are rings and trail of amaterasu everywhere. When you add in susanoo outlined in enton then the whole warping susanoo trick goes out the window. Not to mention sasuke has shown the stamina to fight a long drawn out fights even back in his non-ems days while tobirama has nothing but hype when it comes to that.

Sasuke is mid-high diffing this at the worst. Tobirama would be a tough target jumping around but he won't win.


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## Veracity (Jun 21, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> No they aren't the two scenarios are different. Sasuke in the Itachi arc was a fucking mental mess. He wanted to kill Konoha, and then decided he must face Naruto first and kill him. All this because of what Konoha put Itachi/the uchiha clan through. Then out of no where his dead brother (who the last time he saw him, he just so happened to have a death battle with, not knowing he was actually good and cared for him) comes shushining past without even a glance at you. You'd be a little distracted as well. It was clear throughout the whole arc that Sasuke wanted the answers immediately, and was really upset over the whole thing.
> 
> In the War arc Sasuke is completely resolved to follow his own path. He has had closure with his brother, talked to the starters of his village, and gained their two cents, and is committed to changing the system based off of their mistakes.
> 
> ...



Please tell me what this had to do with anything ? You literally wrote 2 paragraphs for nothing. If his reactions were different between 2 different scenarios then that's all that matters, I . don't really care. I'm just saying Juubito arc Sasuke is way more impressive then Kabuto arc Sasuke in reactions.

Yet again this has nothing to do with my post. Did you even read my post ? It doesn't matter if Sasuke wasn't going full out. He still should have failed to get caught off guard by someone who is not even CLOSE to the speed of Juubito. Kabuto literally blasted Sasuke back with a Sution and he wasn't even able to react ? How can he react to Tobiramas hand speed and shunshin ? 

So you think Itachi can track Juubito ?

Being Kyuubi buffed doesn't enchnace your reactions at all. That was all Sasuke himself. Tracking Juubito in Sussano was him. And even if it did enchnace reactions, then that proves my point better. Sasuke can't react to Juubito to begin with.

Why does this matter ? Gai still received a random massive power up. Just like Sasuke. EMS Sasuke Kabuto arc would be blitzed and raped even harder by Sage Madara.

You mean this ?: taking to the skies
Minato was slammed by a Amaterasu enhanced FRS, and wasn't damaged one bit proving that if you teleport fast enough you can avoid the damage.

Scan of tendrils ? And this is why Tobirama doesn't use tags. He simply tags KB, and warps to hypersonic moving copies of himself which also always carry FTG lvl 2. He's never gets caught lol.

Powerscaling lol? No. We were given one panel of Tobirama FTG raping a opponent we have no idea what his abilities are. This was also a years before Tobirama was even Hokage. He probaably was a lot weaker back then.


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