# BSM Naruto (The Last) vs. Juubito



## Ersa (Sep 6, 2015)

The Naruto that fought Toneri.

*Location*: The Moon
*Distance*: 50m
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC, intent to kill
*Restrictions*: Rikudo Mode


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

Rikudo human non-cloaked BSM (or KN0SM?) Naruto was already moving at speeds that exceeded Judara's truthseeker [1] [2] and fast enough to blitz at Judara and force him to block with his weapon [1] [2] from that extended distance. 

I don't know if he actually dodged Limbo directly afterward, but he was shown sensing and reacting to it. 

The same Naruto with an inflated avatar of Kurama (100%) would inevitably blitz the shit out of Jubito and beat him to shit with his Senjutsu-enhanced paws.

Regarding Judara's condition at the time, whether you want to throw those feats out- that also doesn't really matter. The truthseeker feat alone suggests entering an avatar form would allow him to pressure Judara with his speed, and there's no logical argument that would suggest Judara being injured affects the speed of his truthseeker.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

lol

Bijū Sage Mode Naruto is so much stronger than two years ago it's not even funny.

I don't think Obito can actually hurt him outside of four Jūbi Bijūdama, but Naruto will slap him silly so quickly, he won't have time to set it up.


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## Kyu (Sep 6, 2015)

Yeah, the gap separating 100% Adult BSM and 50% BSM is astronomical.  

Any continuously launched Senpō: Bijūdama/BDRS/COFRS will decimate Jūbito's Truth-Seekers and kill him in the process.

I don't like Obito's chances in a straight up brawl either.


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## Deer Lord (Sep 6, 2015)

Obito gets knocked out like toneri did I guess.


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## ARGUS (Sep 6, 2015)

Naruto wins this mid diff

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Obito is curbstomped. Naruto shits on him in every single stat. Gudodama's, Obito's best weapon will be broken like glass by Naruto.


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2015)

Nerudo wins with fist of a thousand torn scarves


Seriously that speech was not his best at the end of that movie...



DaVizWiz said:


> Rikudo human non-cloaked BSM (or KN0SM?) Naruto was already moving at speeds that exceeded Judara's truthseeker [1] [2] and fast enough to blitz at Judara and force him to block with his weapon [1] [2] from that extended distance.
> 
> I don't know if he actually dodged Limbo directly afterward, but he was shown sensing and reacting to it.
> 
> ...




How is that at all a blitz


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

Oh, and DaVizWiz, that's Rikudo Sage Mode in the links you're using, not Biju Sage Mode.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

He doesn't have a cloak active nor does he have Goudama, that's not RSM. 



> How is that at all a blitz


If you were able to read, you'd see the "forcing him to use his weapon to block" part


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He doesn't have a cloak active nor does he have Goudama, that's not RSM.
> 
> If you were able to read, you'd see the "forcing him to use his weapon to block" part



He was kind of weakened, moving out of the way wasn't really an option

And it's not really a blitz if he reacted to it


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> He doesn't have a cloak active nor does he have Goudama, that's not RSM.


His eyes lack Sage Pigmentation and are crossed. That's Rikudo Sage Mode. Gudodama and the cloak are extra, additional things he can equip to that transformation. 

The fourth databook confirms that Six Path Sage Mode is just the eyes with the cross-pupils without the Sage Pigmentation, even using Naruto's deflecting of Madara's Gudodama to demonstrate it.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

*blitz*
*an intensive or sudden military attack*.
synonyms:	bombardment, bombing, onslaught, barrage; More
2.
informal
a s*udden, energetic, and concerted effort, typically on a specific task*.
"a major press blitz"
verb
1.
attack or damage (a place or building) in a blitz.
"news came that Rotterdam had been blitzed"
2.
FOOTBALL
attack (the passer) in a blitz.

If it makes you sleep better at night, I'll say he *jumped* over an extended distance and arrived at Judara who only had time to put his weapon in front of him.



> His eyes lack Sage Pigmentation and are crossed. That's Rikudo Sage Mode. Gudodama and the cloak are extra, additional things he can equip to that transformation.
> 
> The fourth databook confirms that Six Path Sage Mode is just the eyes with the cross-pupils without the Sage Pigmentation, even using Naruto's deflecting of Madara's Gudodama to demonstrate it.


That's not Rikudo Sage Mode, he doesn't have Goudama or the cloak. Eye pigmentation is irrelevant when he doesn't have two of the most important features of Rikudo Sage Mode - which make it Rikudo Sage Mode. 

The best you can argue is it's a half-assed version of it, because without the cloak he definitely isn't shunshining as fast, he certainly doesn't have the physical power associated with it, and he doesn't have Goudama weapons.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> That's not Rikudo Sage Mode, he doesn't have Goudama or the cloak. Eye pigmentation is irrelevant when he doesn't have two of the most important features of Rikudo Sage Mode - which make it Rikudo Sage Mode.
> 
> The best you can argue is it's a half-assed version of it, because without the cloak he definitely isn't shunshining as fast and he certainly doesn't have the physical power of it.


It is Rikudo Sage Mode. It was explicitly said to be Rikudo Sage Mode. The eyes are the PRIMARY trait of the jutsu, the cloak and gudodama are EXTRA.



> Ninjutsu, Senjutsu - Six Paths Sage Mode
> No rank, no range, offensive, defensive, supplementary
> Users: Naruto Uzumaki
> 
> ...


Both of these are WITHOUT the cloak. Thus Rikudo Sage Mode isn't the cloak, its extra.


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## Ashi (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> *blitz*
> *an intensive or sudden military attack*.
> synonyms:	bombardment, bombing, onslaught, barrage; More
> 2.
> ...



 Even then Naruo didn't show anything that made him far above Madara in terms of speed, except maybe for when he sliced off Kaguya's arm


EDIT: I read that wrong you never said he blitzed Madara's, only blitzed at him


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

> It is Rikudo Sage Mode. It was explicitly said to be Rikudo Sage Mode. The eyes are the PRIMARY trait of the jutsu, the cloak and gudodama are EXTRA.


They're not extra, they're literally the signature features of the technique that we consider RSM Naruto as. 



> Both of these are WITHOUT the cloak. Thus Rikudo Sage Mode isn't the cloak, its extra.


I don't give a shit what the databook says.

Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto is what everyone here calls a cloaked Naruto with Goudama weapons. 

If you want to be technical, we can call it ass-RSM. 

Because that's what it is compared to his Cloaked Goudama version. 


TensaXZangetsu said:


> Even then Naruo didn't show anything that made him far above Madara in terms of speed, except maybe for when he sliced off Kaguya's arm
> 
> 
> EDIT: I read that wrong you never said he blitzed Madara's, only blitzed at him


Thank you.

Being on par with Rikudo Madara means that he's faster than Judito by default, which is why I brought it up. 

Blitzing Kaguya means he can blitz anyone in the verse, including Judara.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> They're not extra, they're literally the signature features of the technique that we consider RSM Naruto as.
> 
> 
> I don't give a shit what the databook says.
> ...


Since the databook is canon, it doesn't matter what YOU say. It clarifies exactly what Rikudo Sage Mode is, you want to deny it since you mistake what Rikudo Sage Mode even is and its primary traits.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

There's no point in debating if you take everything in the databook as literal, not to mention it's full of contradictions and exaggerations. 

In this instance, it is wrong.

Because people who debate on this forum consider RSM Naruto as a cloaked being, with Goudama as his main weaponry.

The scan that I posted is a half-assed version of RSM Naruto that is less durable, less fast, less physically powerful, he cannot fly, he does not have chakra arms and he does not have Goudama weaponry.

If you want you can call it something you call it Base RSM Naruto. 

[This] is (full power, and therefore worthy of full title) RSM Naruto, pal


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 6, 2015)

Just to clear things up, is what Naruto used against Momoshiki Bijū Sage Mode or Rikūdo Sage Mode?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 6, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> There's no point in debating if you take everything in the databook as literal, not to mention it's full of contradictions and exaggerations.
> 
> In this instance, it is wrong.
> 
> ...


No, you're wrong and just don't want to admit it. Rikudo Sage Mode is just the eyes without pigmentation, cloak and Gudodama are extra and part of Rikudo Senjutsu. Its a powered up form.

Many people on this forum are uneducated on how a jutsu works. Doesn't mean they are right.



ATastyMuffin said:


> Just to clear things up, is what Naruto used against Momoshiki Bijū Sage Mode or Rikūdo Sage Mode?


Rikudo Sage Mode. The eyes confirm it (cross without the pigmentation).


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 6, 2015)

> No, you're wrong and just don't want to admit it. Rikudo Sage Mode is just the eyes without pigmentation, cloak and Gudodama are extra and part of Rikudo Senjutsu. Its a powered up form.
> 
> Many people on this forum are uneducated on how a jutsu works. Doesn't mean they are right.


A powered up form is stronger than the previous form.

Therefore *RSM Naruto* now becomes a cloaked, flying, super fast, super durable, super strong ninja with chakra arms and Goudama.

RSM Naruto vs. Rikudo Sasuke

Which version of Naruto are we talking about here?

We're talking about full powered RSM Naruto, who has the "power ups" you're suggesting.

I have never, and never will see, a thread with "RSM Naruto" in it where the OP is referring to the base version without a cloak, without flight, without Goudama or the physical attributes of full powered RSM Naruto.

Why? 

Because that's not RSM Naruto as the forum titles it.


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## Hachibi (Sep 7, 2015)

Maybe the reason Naruto doesn't have the gudodama is because he used them up?

I mean, bar Kaguya, no one showed the ability to create them, just controling existing ones.


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

Hachibi said:


> Maybe the reason Naruto doesn't have the gudodama is because he used them up?
> 
> I mean, bar Kaguya, no one showed the ability to create them, just controling existing ones.





He stole the Six Paths chakra from Madara but he still ''created'' it, I don't see one less Truthseeker on Madara so it's not like he stole one of his either.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Gudodama don't seem to be part of Naruto's fighting style, could be why he rarely uses them. Why would he use them if Rasengans and Rasenshurikens can do the job?


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## Clowe (Sep 7, 2015)

That's something i can get behind, it's stupid but hey, it is Naruto.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

Clowe said:


> That's something i can get behind, it's stupid but hey, it is Naruto.


He'd probably use them if the situation calls for them, but if it doesn't, no reason to use techniques he can replicate with the power of the Six Paths Chakra he uses normally.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 7, 2015)

Goudama nullifies Ninjutsu and is more destructive than Jinton. 

Are you suggesting any of his other techniques are more useful?


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> Goudama nullifies Ninjutsu and is more destructive than Jinton.
> 
> Are you suggesting any of his other techniques are more useful?


We know its properties, but Naruto has loads of other techniques. He would use Gudodama if the situation calls for it.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 7, 2015)

What technique do you deem more useful? It's concentrated, safe power that is also top-tier defense.

Unless you think he's throwing FRS in his own village.


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## SuperSaiyaMan12 (Sep 7, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> What technique do you deem more useful? It's concentrated, safe power that is also top-tier defense.
> 
> Unless you think he's throwing FRS in his own village.


...he has thrown the Futon: Rasenshuriken safely in his own village. He also has Bijudama, Kurama's chakra-avatar Tailed Beast Mode for defense and the standard Rasengan and its other variants haven't failed him. Gudodama? Its not his fighting style, he'd only use it if the situation REALLY calls for it.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 7, 2015)

Yeah... above the village, if you're referring Naruto: The Last

If a battle happened in the city behind the mountain, or within the heart of his village- FRS would be useless. 

Bijuudama is worse than FRS, the explosive radius is too large to use in the village unless you're talking about palm bijuudama, which is definitely weaker than Goudama.

Also, we were talking about RSM Naruto, not RSBM Naruto, so bijuudama and avatar aren't even in this conversation.

At least, I wasn't talking about RSBM, maybe you were.

In that regard, it's pretty obvious RSBM Naruto's own palms would be more destructive than his palm-sized Goudama and it's cloak/increased speed would be a better defensive variant.

If he can do this [1], the Goudama become his most powerful technique or the basis for his most powerful technique (if he chooses to add wind chakra to them and make a BGFRS) (Goudama look large enough to create a full shield around the bijuu cloak).


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## Raiken (Sep 7, 2015)

It's funny because you say the Naruto that fought Toneri and at the same time say BSM.

When judging by the fighting style, but PRIMARILY, the look of the Seal Pattern... it is quite clear that Naruto is using some kind of Synced-100% KCM+SM.


I say Synced because of the presence of the Verticle Slit in his Pupil, also how could he use BM without Kurama being inside him? The reason he still has slit pupils is because he is using Kurama outside of him so is maintaining some kind of connection/synchronization with him.

I'd say: 

100% BSM > 100% BM = Tenseigan Toneri >* Synced-100% KCM+SM* => 100% KCM+SM > 100% KCM >> SM Naruto >> Base Naruto

The bold is what Naruto fought Toneri in.


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## Ashi (Sep 7, 2015)

I do think the mode that Naruto uses is just a reskined version of the of the one he fought Sasuke with, the patterns probably change simply because his clothes change


Why he doesn't have the other Jin and the Balls is probably just due to Kishi maintaining his nerf So that Naruto vs Sasuke would be a fair fight


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## tkpirate (Sep 7, 2015)

Naruto hand>Toneri's sword>Juubito.


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## Arles Celes (Sep 7, 2015)

Gudoudamas are useless against Six Path chakra users and the ability to nullify ninjutsu does not work against those either as Sasuke and Kakashi could hurt Juudara and Kaguya respectively.

Losing the ability to use Bijuu Rasenshuriken is a loss though as he could use multiple of those and they were even superior to a fully charged bijuudama...

That said Naruto still should be able to fly. Sasuke did not lose any of the powers he had so it makes no sense why Naruto would. Hell...even with his weakened Rinnegan, Sasuke can still use Ameno.

With 100% Kurama and an increase in experience after all those years Naruto would be formidable enough anyway and with Six Path chakra still within his body and powering his other modes he should be able to beat Juubito even without RSM I think...


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## Kor (Sep 7, 2015)

Dual Senpou: Rasen Bijuu Shuriken or whatever it is will ruin Juubito's day.


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## Kyu (Sep 7, 2015)

> Losing the ability to use Bijuu Rasenshuriken is a loss though as he could use multiple of those and they were even superior to a fully charged bijuudama...





He manifested a makeshift Bijūdama Rasenshuriken out of _a regular Tailed Beast Ball_; this occurred _after_ he used up all of his Truth-seekers. It's possible to use so long as Kurama is sealed within.

Rikudō Sage Mode and Gudōdama aren't requirements; the latter simply provides more efficient utilization out of the jutsu.


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## Tarot (Sep 7, 2015)

Kyu said:


> He manifested a makeshift Bijūdama Rasenshuriken out of _a regular Tailed Beast Ball_; this occurred _after_ he used up all of his Truth-seekers. It's possible to use so long as Kurama is sealed within.
> 
> Rikudō Sage Mode and Gudōdama aren't requirements; the latter simply provides more efficient utilization out of the jutsu.


Naruto still had 3 Gudodama until the end of the fight.


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## Kyu (Sep 7, 2015)

Oh, I stand corrected. Doesn't really refute my point though. A normal BD can be used in its place. It is called _Bijūdama_ Rasenshuriken after all.

Although I do question his choice to not use his last few remaining gudōdama; he could have thrown them in the shadow of his first two projectiles.


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## DaVizWiz (Sep 7, 2015)

> Gudoudamas are useless against Six Path chakra users and the ability to nullify ninjutsu does not work against those either as Sasuke and Kakashi could hurt Juudara and Kaguya respectively.


Dude, there's 2 people in the world that have Six Path chakra, and they're best friends. 

Are you seriously suggesting Goudama is useless against the rest of the entire HUMAN RACE?

Are Sasuke and Naruto going to fight again? Really? Because that's about the only time you can suggest the Goudama is less than amazingly useful. 

And they definitely weren't useless, Goudama are still powerful if you're hit with it regardless of whether or not you have Six Paths Chakra. Naruto is shown throwing them at Kaguya's 80 vacuum palm technique to create an opening for Sasuke. Where did you get the idea that they're useless against Six Path's Chakra users?

Jubito was blocking Senjutsu-enhanced bijuu Rasengan with it. He blocked Sasuke's CS Arrow and BSM Naruto's bijuudama with it. 

Even against normal Senjutsu it is still an effective defense regardless of it not nullifying it- it's still a 5-element destructive jutsu with Six Paths Chakra enhancing it and it can straight up overpower most Senjutsu techniques.


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## The Undying (Sep 10, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> I don't give a shit what the databook says.
> 
> Rikudo Sage Mode Naruto is what everyone here calls a cloaked Naruto with Goudama weapons.
> 
> ...




Technically, the databook doesn't even contradict your standpoint. SSM12 is just having a lot of difficulty properly interpreting things which is honestly pretty typical of him.

There's a cloaked version of RSM and a non-cloaked version of it.

When Naruto activates his cloak in Gaiden and Boruto, it clearly resembles BSM/KCM, despite the non-pigmentation cross pupils (which could simply be representative of a more perfected version of SM+KCM).

It doesn't resemble either the cloaked RSM or the non-cloaked RSM, despite those two forms being the _only_ forms the databook mentioned RSM to consist of.

The only possibilities are either he chose not to use it or simply doesn't possess it, because he clearly wasn't using it.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 11, 2016)

The last naruto is BSM with full kurama, basically war arc BSM naruto but with full kurama, juubito has quad juubidama, is superior in every other category
- DC
- chakra reserve
- juubi > kurama
- rikudou senjutsu > normal senjutsu

Etc so I put him over BSM naruto


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Rikudo human non-cloaked BSM (or KN0SM?) Naruto was already moving at speeds that exceeded Judara's truthseeker [1] [2] and fast enough to blitz at Judara and force him to block with his weapon [1] [2] from that extended distance.


That was RSM , read the DB and the manga 
--------------
OT : Naruto wins mid difficulty at max .
- A giant COFRS or a FRS formed in his avatar cuts down the TBB tree before they are charged to any effective size .
- Renzuko TBBs destroy Juubito's TSB shield and turns him to a red paste on the ground .
- Sword of Nonubuko is already useless against Naruto as We saw in the manga .
- CQC ends up in Naruto's favor , since he was shown to be moving at a high speed that surpass Juubito's feats in terms of speed , and Manga BSM Naruto was already reacting to and tagging Juubito , so the last BSM Narto does it with utter ease .


uchihakil said:


> The last naruto is BSM with full kurama, basically war arc BSM naruto but with full kurama, juubito has quad juubidama, is superior in every other category
> - DC
> - chakra reserve
> - juubi > kurama
> ...


Not a good way to analys this tho ....

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> That was RSM , the DB made it clear
> --------------
> OT : Naruto wins mid difficulty at max .
> - A giant COFRS or a FRS formed in his avatar cuts down the TBB tree before they are charged to any effective size .
> ...


People seem to think that toneri = juubito

Toneri is not juubito, nor is
he getting beat by a punch, so him beating
toneri does'nt automatically makes him
above juubito, cuz juubito is way more
durable with better regeneration, there
attacks are different, there dura is different,
nor is toneri even as experienced as juubito
- juubito has precog
- juubito has god tree that sucked both
halves of kurama dry (including the bijuu
dama they made)
- naruto has to defeat juubito in 15 minutes
when the god tree is out cuz IT

Juubito > the last naruto


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## t0xeus (Sep 11, 2016)

Low diff for Naruto, anybody from The Last can beat anybody from the normal manga except Hagoromo and other exceptions.


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## ATastyMuffin (Sep 11, 2016)

_The Last_ Naruto > Toneri > Jūbi Obito 

No one has ever put up a convincing argument for Obito to win.


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> People seem to think that toneri = juubito
> 
> Toneri is not juubito, nor is
> he getting beat by a punch, so him beating
> ...


Let's see :
Toneri , takes a rasengan from BSM Naruto in the face = no damage .
Obito takes a rasengan which vreated a huge hole in his back , and had to regenerate .
Regeneration is irrelevant to power , otherwise Tsunade would be ranked pretty high in terms of power .
Obito has better regeneration healing yet that doesn't put him above Naruto and Sasuke or DRSM Madara in terms of overall power .
Cutting the moon in half + busting it's core to the space >>> Anything Obito can even hope to dream .

Toneri keeps up with Naruto and shown to be moving at speed that they appeare as a streak of light , destroying the surface of the moon just by moving at high speed . Obito has no feat on this level in terms of speed .
Toneri can creat more than 99 TSB and regenerate them , and his shield tanks more than 20 odama rasengan from adult Naruto . Obito's shield gets cracked by just 9 odama rasengans .
Toneri's pupet reincarnation jutsu that he was going to use at the end of the movie , and said he would destroy the world with it until Hinata stopped him from draining all of Naruto's chakra with Hamura's chakra she received earlier .
Obito doesn't possess hamura's chakra , so he gets his chakra drained and one shot him .


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## uchihakil (Sep 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Let's see :
> Toneri , takes a rasengan from BSM Naruto in the face = no damage .
> Obito takes a rasengan which vreated a huge hole in his back , and had to regenerate .
> Regeneration is irrelevant to power , otherwise Tsunade would be ranked pretty high in terms of power .
> ...



- Juubito aint getting knocked out by naruto's punch
- juubito has a different fighting style than toneri
- juubito is more experienced
- naruto needed tobirama to teleport him in order to land an attack (juubito thought he could phase but did'nt)
- naruto was knocked out by momoshiki with a bijuu dama, qaud juubi dama >>> momos bijuu dama (toneri's moon cutter does'nt function in the same way that a nuke does) unless maybe you think full kurama mode naruto < the last naruto's chakra cloak.
- flashiness does'nt mean a character is faster than the other, by that logic, 5 gates lee (chuunin exams) is faster than 8 gates guy, cuz his speed portrayal was more impressive
- him creating alot of goudodama means nothing, when one of juubitos has greater AOE
- juubito's tsb's only broke with the k13 chou odaama rasengans cuz he was doubting himself
- juubito has precog

Etc etc


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> - Juubito aint getting knocked out by naruto's punch


I would love to see him taking that punch to his face , after what a basic Rasengan did to him .


uchihakil said:


> - juubito has a different fighting style than toneri


Sure 


uchihakil said:


> - juubito is more experienced


Means jack ....


uchihakil said:


> - naruto needed tobirama to teleport him in order to land an attack (juubito thought he could phase but did'nt)



What the hell does this has to do with him not being durable enuff to tank that Rasengan .
That rasengan created a hole in his back , while a Rasengan to the face from far far stronger Naruto got tanked with no damage by Toneri .


uchihakil said:


> - naruto was knocked out by momoshiki with a bijuu dama, qaud juubi dama >>> momos bijuu dama (toneri's moon cutter does'nt function in the same way that a nuke does) unless maybe you think full kurama mode naruto < the last naruto's chakra cloak.


Terrible example .
Naruto took the damage of that TBB to protect the village , if it was in actual fight while he has no one to protect he would never contain the TBB in his avatar .
Naruto was focusing all of his chakra in his fist to tank that sword .
And yes Naruto's cloak is durable when :
- Kaguya's 80 gods vacuum fists nuked Sasuke's Susanoo to dust ....
- The same Jutsu Kaguya used on Naruto got tanked with no damage .


uchihakil said:


> - flashiness does'nt mean a character is faster than the other, by that logic, 5 gates lee (chuunin exams) is faster than 8 gates guy, cuz his speed portrayal was more impressive


Sorry but the feats disagree , both Naruto and Sasuke needed BSM and EMS to track and react to Obito so this already shows how fast he is , but not as fast as the way Naruto and Toneri were moving in the movie .
In fact if we used your logic then those flashy animations were used to highlight how strong Naruto got in the time skeep .
Good luck proving Obito is faster ........


uchihakil said:


> - him creating alot of goudodama means nothing, when one of juubitos has greater AOE


Greater AOE =/= greater power , the Manga is fulled by examples .


uchihakil said:


> - juubito's tsb's only broke with the k13 chou odaama rasengans cuz he was doubting himself


- Nop that was only 9 odama rasengans .
- Nop , him doubting himself effected the sword of Nonobuko and that's it , it didn't effect his TSB , nothing was stated about that , you just made it up man , with all due respect ...........


uchihakil said:


> - juubito has precog


So does Toneri based on feats .


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## Arles Celes (Sep 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Let's see :
> Toneri , takes a rasengan from BSM Naruto in the face = no damage .
> Obito takes a rasengan which vreated a huge hole in his back , and had to regenerate .
> Regeneration is irrelevant to power , otherwise Tsunade would be ranked pretty high in terms of power .
> ...



Does durability really help rate how powerful a character is?

I mean we got Shin hurting Adult Sasuke with some knives or Sakura hurting Kaguya with a punch...

I do not see Adult Sasuke or DMS Obito "tanking" a FRS from even Pain arc SM Naruto unless Susanoo or Kamui are involved while the 3rd Raikage(whom most would see as much weaker than those two) actually can.

I'm not sure about raw power being the key to victory either. Haxxx and even skill seem more effective. Otherwise someone like Minato would be way below Bee or even Ei while that did not seem to be the case.

Juubito's gudoudama durability also was quite strange as it was handled via 9 big rasengans even though it resisted 4 juubidamas and BSM Naruto's and EMS Sasuke's bijuudama plus Susanoo's arrow combo. Maybe Juubito's guoudama's were truly weak to Senjutsu and somehow Naruto's 9 SM powered rasengans were better than a small bijuudama and Susanoo's arrow. But can Toneri use Senjutsu himself? Besides while Toneri can absorb chakra so can Obito. Like he absorbed Six Path chakra from Madara.

Also did Juubito not survive being slashed in half and requiring the bijuu chakra from him being pulled away in order to lose?

I agree that Toneri's moon splitting feat puts him WAY above Juubito(and even Shinju Madara who ironically did not show nukeish attacks sans maybe the meteor shower) in terms of raw power but I'm not sure if he got all the tools to take Juubito out. If Juubito cannot destroy the tenseigan by lacking Hamura's chakra and Toneri cannot kill Juubito(who might had the Shinju inside him as he summoned it out of his body to start his MT plan) due to potential immortality then the battle could end in a draw.


Besides since this is BSM Naruto VS Juubito does Naruto have truly enough power to bypass the Six Red Yang barrier or tank Juubito's 4 Juubidamas? Maybe the other 50% of Kurama did give him enough power for that but I'm not fully sure.


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

Arles Celes said:


> Does durability really help rate how powerful a character is?
> 
> I mean we got Shin hurting Adult Sasuke with some knives or Sakura hurting Kaguya with a punch...
> 
> I do not see Adult Sasuke or DMS Obito "tanking" a FRS from even Pain arc SM Naruto unless Susanoo or Kamui are involved while the 3rd Raikage(whom most would see as much weaker than those two) actually can.


I never said that durability is the key to rank characters , Uchihakil was claiming that Juubito was more durable than Toneri and i proved it wrong since a basic Rasengan created a big hole in Juubito's back .


Arles Celes said:


> I'm not sure about raw power being the key to victory either. Haxxx and even skill seem more effective. Otherwise someone like Minato would be way below Bee or even Ei while that did not seem to be the case.


Abviously , more durable =/= always more powerful .
For example third Raikage is 1246976531451 times more durable than Itachi , but i don't see him beating the Uchiha anyday of the week .


Arles Celes said:


> Juubito's gudoudama durability also was quite strange as it was handled via 9 big rasengans even though it resisted 4 juubidamas and BSM Naruto's and EMS Sasuke's bijuudama plus Susanoo's arrow combo. Maybe Juubito's guoudama's were truly weak to Senjutsu and somehow Naruto's 9 SM powered rasengans were better than a small bijuudama and Susanoo's arrow. But can Toneri use Senjutsu himself? Besides while Toneri can absorb chakra so can Obito. Like he absorbed Six Path chakra from Madara.


Ah ! no man , i keep explaining this to people , the Juubidama aren't senjutsu , so thye get negged by the TSB barrier with no damage . While 9 Rasengans and a stadard TBB from half Kyuubi packed with Senjutsu were more than more than enuff to bust the defense .
Toneri is abviously using senjutsu , since the DB stats that , the pesence of TSB = senjutsu chakra .
And no , Obito was never shown to absorb chakar like Toneri . considering that :
- In one move Toneri drained Naruto's chakra and one shotted him with it , to the point that it took Sakura 3 days of constant healing to keep him alive .
- The second time he drained Naruto's chakra cloak in a second before Hinata giving him Hamura's chakra to stop the absorption technique .
I'm still curious to know how strong was his pupet reincarnation jutsu tho . He said that he will destroy the world with it 


Arles Celes said:


> Also did Juubito not survive being slashed in half and requiring the bijuu chakra from him being pulled away in order to lose?


Him getting cut in the first place is not a durability feat tho , it's because of the Juubi's crazy regeneration abilities .


Arles Celes said:


> I agree that Toneri's moon splitting feat puts him WAY above Juubito(and even Shinju Madara who ironically did not show nukeish attacks sans maybe the meteor shower) in terms of raw power but I'm not sure if he got all the tools to take Juubito out. If Juubito cannot destroy the tenseigan by lacking Hamura's chakra and Toneri cannot kill Juubito(who might had the Shinju inside him as he summoned it out of his body to start his MT plan) due to potential immortality then the battle could end in a draw.


Juubito wasn't immortale tho , and neither did he had the Shinju inside him .
- He released the Juubi from his body .
- The Juubi evolved to the Shinjuu tree .
- The shinjuu started sucking chakra from everyone .
And considering that Madara stated the Gai was THIS close from killing him , then Juubito who inferior to Madara in eveything , is by no means immortale , so yes he can be killed .


Arles Celes said:


> Besides since this is BSM Naruto VS Juubito does Naruto have truly enough power to bypass the Six Red Yang barrier or tank Juubito's 4 Juubidamas? Maybe the other 50% of Kurama did give him enough power for that but I'm not fully sure.


A COFRS or a Bijuu sized FRS formed in his avatar cuts down the Juubidama tree before the TBB are charged to any effective size .


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## uchihakil (Sep 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I would love to see him taking that punch to his face , after what a basic Rasengan did to him .
> 
> Sure
> 
> ...



I don't wanna talk bout speed, cuz both of us can't really prove anything on the matter, juubito was shown to be faster than BSM naruto and EMS sasuke (then later on they were able to react to him), but nothing proves toneri is faster, so let's just say they are around the same speed

- the punch is a blunt force, madara took punches from guy and did'nt do jack to him, naruto's punch for sure aint doing jack to juubito, it might just throw him bach but it won't do damage + the dude has a sharingan, he aint getting sucker punched

- naruto contained the explosion yea, juubito also used musekiyojin (the barrier) to contain quad juubi dama explosion, which would obliterate naruto

- juubito has the god tree, that can suck naruto dry (already sucked both halves of kurama dry)

- and yes juubito doubting himself weakened his shield and the sword (both are made of the goudodama) cuz juubito already tanked a senjutsu bijuu dama + cursed mode susano arrow > 9 chou oodama rasengans and even tanked a super kyuubi sized chou oodama rasengan

Reactions: Agree 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 11, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I never said that durability is the key to rank characters , Uchihakil was claiming that Juubito was more durable than Toneri and i proved it wrong since a basic Rasengan created a big hole in Juubito's back .
> 
> Abviously , more durable =/= always more powerful .
> For example third Raikage is 1246976531451 times more durable than Itachi , but i don't see him beating the Uchiha anyday of the week .
> ...



He's basically setting off the nuke, not like juubito can't fire a juubidama on his own, and I forgot, juubito has human path


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 11, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> He doesn't have a cloak active nor does he have Goudama, that's not RSM.
> 
> If you were able to read, you'd see the "forcing him to use his weapon to block" part




The cloak and TSB show six paths sage technique

The eyes show six paths sage mode


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## Lord Aizen (Sep 11, 2016)

Naruto wins mid diff. Hes running on six paths chakra which puts him on juubitos level. Naruto is too skilled at this point to go down to a guy who can only use TSB. Clones and FRS variations put juubito down


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

Lord Aizen said:


> The cloak and TSB show six paths sage technique
> 
> The eyes show six paths sage mode


Don't waste your time , Daviz dosn't have any idea of what RSM is .


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## Android (Sep 11, 2016)

- People who are thinking that BSM (albeit still buffed by 6p chakra) can't dish out a power to match the Rikudou characters , or that BSM the Last is only twice as strong as the war arc BSM are clearly on that good shit .
- A BSM Naruto who just got his power litrally less then an hour ago was stated to surpass Hashirama , now give him the 6p chakra and two years of mastery .........


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## King Shark (Sep 11, 2016)

Naruto never used bsm in the last, that was kcsm. There's a difference but naruto had rikudou chakra then he should win as he'd be superior in everything minus regen & firepower.


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## ARGUS (Sep 12, 2016)

Barrier plus Quad Juubi Dama would turn Naruto to dust 

He can't stop the technique nor is he cutting the tree since his best cutting technique here is FRS/COFRS which the TSB shield can tank with ease. 

Juubito mid diffs


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## Android (Sep 12, 2016)

Naruto fires a brrage of TBBs and nukes turns Obito to a smear on the ground .
TBB tree is cut with utter ease with COFRS or a bijuu FRS .
Naruto wins low diff .


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## Ashi (Sep 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Naruto fires a brrage of TBBs and nukes turns Obito to a smear on the ground .
> TBB tree is cut with utter ease with COFRS or a bijuu FRS .
> Naruto wins low diff .



Clearly a a nuanced decision


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## UchihaX28 (Sep 12, 2016)

BSM Naruto would have had to have surpassed his RSM normal state that he used before Madara absorbed the Shinju to decisively defeat Juubito. That's not really difficult to grasp for me considering Naruto has the other half of Kurama's Power along with the fact that Sasuke's Chidori improved immensely to the point where he can pulverize a meteor and so thus, Naruto would've had to have improved to the same extent.

 Take into account that BSM Naruto uses Rikudou's Chakra as well and he should be able to win this IMO.

Reactions: Like 1


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## uchihakil (Sep 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> - People who are thinking that BSM (albeit still buffed by 6p chakra) can't dish out a power to match the Rikudou characters , or that BSM the Last is only twice as strong as the war arc BSM are clearly on that good shit .
> - A BSM Naruto who just got his power litrally less then an hour ago was stated to surpass Hashirama , now give him the 6p chakra and two years of mastery .........



War arc BSM naruto surpassing hashirama??? The hell did I just read, hashi would beat the living shit out of war arm BSM naruto

Okay, I have been thinking the last naruto does'nt have rikudou chakra, but if he does his chances of beating juubito is higher, I actually thought its just the other half of kurama and more experience that he got, if its just that, he aint beating juubito IMO


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## Android (Sep 12, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> War arc BSM naruto surpassing hashirama??? The hell did I just read, hashi would beat the living shit out of war arm BSM naruto


" You have already surpassed the Hokages Naruto , and now that you've become a hero and everyone acknowledged you , you still want to become a hokage " 
Naruto beats utter shit out of him , argue that with the Manga , not me  


uchihakil said:


> if its just that, he aint beating juubito IMO


Keep fantasizing ....

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ARGUS (Sep 12, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> " You have already surpassed the Hokages Naruto , and now that you've become a hero and everyone acknowledged you , you still want to become a hokage "
> Naruto beats utter shit out of him , argue that with the Manga , not me
> 
> Keep fantasizing ....


That was said when Naruto got RSM 
When he had BSM. It was only stated that he had the potential to do it


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## Shinobi no Kami (Sep 12, 2016)

i dont know why mods wont lock threads like this. obito kills him without any significant effort.


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## uchihakil (Sep 13, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> " You have already surpassed the Hokages Naruto , and now that you've become a hero and everyone acknowledged you , you still want to become a hokage "
> Naruto beats utter shit out of him , argue that with the Manga , not me
> 
> Keep fantasizing ....



Yea, you seem to be the only one with that opinion, so I guess you're the one fantasizing on war arc BSM naruto being above hashirama


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## Android (Sep 13, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> Yea, you seem to be the only one with that opinion, so I guess you're the one fantasizing on war arc BSM naruto being above hashirama


Context is a key you know .
" Already " , means in the past , means before obtaining RSM , and Kakashi hasn't seen a shit from RSM at that time , nor did he know about him meeting Hagoromo yet , anyway .
Whatever bro , i couldn't care-less of what others think , NBD has went to shit anyway .
When :
- Itachi beats Nagato .
- Tsukuyomi defeats Madara .
- Itachi beats Juubito with Izanami .
- SS tanks 4 Juubi TBB .
- DMS Kakashi one shots Rinne Sharingan Madara with a Kamui .
Like i said , i could care-less of what others think , i only say what i need to say , and i'm very positive of what i say


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> Context is a key you know .
> " Already " , means in the past , means before obtaining RSM , and Kakashi hasn't seen a shit from RSM at that time , nor did he know about him meeting Hagoromo yet , anyway .
> Whatever bro , i couldn't care-less of what others think , NBD has went to shit anyway .
> When :
> ...



It don't matter, cuz juubito > BSM naruto IMO 

Stats wise he's superior
Experience wise he is superior


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## Android (Sep 14, 2016)

uchihakil said:


> It don't matter, cuz juubito > BSM naruto IMO
> 
> Stats wise he's superior
> Experience wise he is superior


I guess , that's your opinion , Oh well , i respect it tho , but i disagree .......


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## uchihakil (Sep 14, 2016)

cctr9 said:


> I guess , that's your opinion , Oh well , i respect it tho , but i disagree .......



Oh well, agree to disagree it seems

Reactions: Like 1


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