# Anbu Itachi vs Kimimaro



## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

*Anbu Itachi* - _Meaning before he attained his MS_


*Distance*: 45 m

*Location*: CE

*Intel*: Full

*Mindset*: IC

*Restriction*: All MS Techs ( No Susano, Amaterasu ) & No Genjutsu / Bone Forest

*Condition: *

Kimi starts in CS1 form & he is not sick


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## Turrin (Oct 6, 2014)

Itachi doesn't really have anything that can put Kimi down outside MS-Techs, so i'd have to go with Kimi.


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## Complete_Ownage (Oct 6, 2014)

Itachi wins...Just because he's itachi 

Superior speed
Superior reflexes
Superior intellect
Superior kunai skills
Superior genjutsu
Superior clones

Take your pick


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Complete_Ownage said:


> Itachi wins...Just because he's itachi
> 
> Superior speed
> Superior reflexes
> ...




Ok..

How about put all those 'factors' into a story of how Itachi penetrates Kimi's bone armor.


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## Rocky (Oct 6, 2014)

Kimimaro stomps Itachi when Itachi's everything in banned. Kimi dodges Gōkakyū, tanks Kunai, and eventually tracks Itachi down despite his clone feints.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Kimimaro stomps Itachi when Itachi's everything in banned. Kimi dodges Gōkakyū, tanks Kunai, and eventually tracks Itachi down despite his clone feints.




Eh,

Bone Forest is restricted for Kimi. Its just Anbu Itachi w/ genjutsu restricted


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## FlamingRain (Oct 6, 2014)

I seriously doubt Kimimaro could force the MS anyway.

His regeneration is based around his skeletal structure due to his Kekkei Genkai, it doesn't cover everything. His organs are still vulnerable, and the heat from Itachi's Gōkakyū should _eventually_ start transferring through to them and cooking him.

It'll take multiple fireballs and Kage Bunshin feints (mainly as distractions to actually land the fireball), but I can't really imagine Itachi not winning this. Not when you consider that the Itachi Kakashi was basing his estimations on in the Konoha Canal should have been Anbu Itachi.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> I seriously doubt Kimimaro could force the MS anyway.
> 
> His regeneration is based around his skeletal structure due to his Kekkei Genkai, it doesn't cover everything. His organs are still vulnerable, and the heat from Itachi's Gōkakyū should _eventually_ start transferring through to them and cooking him.
> 
> It'll take multiple fireballs and Kage Bunshin feints (mainly as distractions to actually land the fireball), but I can't really imagine Itachi not winning this. Not when you consider that the Itachi Kakashi was basing his estimations on in the Konoha Canal should have been Anbu Itachi.




Thats a good theory.

Though the problem with it lies in two factors. One being that this is full knowledge, so Kimi knows about the fire no jutsu's. Secondly, Itachi's chakra reserves will be at its limit in no time spamming Katon's and clone feints


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## Beyonce (Oct 6, 2014)

IIRC didn't a near blind, near death Itachi dodge Sasuke's attacks in Uchiha Hideout?
Pretty sure this Itachi would dodge most if not all, but then again Kimi is sorta fast 

Itachi is sorta useless without MS so Kimi takes low diff


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## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Itachi is still physically stronger than Kimimaro, and is good enough at Taijutsu that his speed advantage and Sharingan should more than compensate for Kimimaro's marginal advantage in skill. And sorry, but Kimi has no feats to suggest he can simply tank Goukakyuu; scale his Stage Two durability and flame resistance to Hebi Sasuke if you like, but he's still going to take some damage from Itachi's Katon.

Ninja tools may not penetrate Shikkotsumyaku, but Itachi's got this uncanny talent for redirecting thrown projectiles to unguarded areas with laser-guided accuracy; bone armor under every inch of Kimimaro's skin would be the only guaranteed safeguard, and I'm guessing that would cause issues for his mobility...especially if he wants to protect his eyes, which Itachi's been so keen to target in the past.

It's not a stomp, but there is still a very definite difference in the level of ability between these two shinobi, and Itachi is perfectly capable of taking down Kimimaro despite having all of his most powerful Jutsu restricted--it's just a matter of overpowering and outmaneuvering Kimimaro to strike a vital point, while roasting him with Katon and wearing him down in his own Taijutsu game. Itachi is the same guy who stepped with KCM Naruto and Killer B, so that really shouldn't be too demanding in this case.


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## Bonly (Oct 6, 2014)

I'd go with Kimi. We haven't seen much from Anbu Itachi with using the MS besides beating down three Uchiha. With just Katons and kunai skills and his taijutsu/kenjutsu skills(not sure what else he has), I don't think he's gonna be able to put down Kimi for good with his regen and his durable body and dances though hard to say


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## Rocky (Oct 6, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> It'll take multiple fireballs and Kage Bunshin feints (mainly as distractions to actually land the fireball), but I can't really imagine Itachi not winning this. Not when you consider that the Itachi Kakashi was basing his estimations on in the Konoha Canal should have been Anbu Itachi.



How many times do you think that's going to work? Fireball Jutsu isn't exactly fast, nor is it a subtle technique. He'd just dodge it, like Sakura. A clone feint may work once or twice, but I don't see it happening anymore than that, and the Katon isn't even guaranteed to land should the feint succeed. 

Kakashi's estimations in Part 1 were likely based of the Uchiha Clan massacre. _We_ know that Itachi had help from Obito and used the Mangekyou (and likely genjutsu) on that night, but Kakashi didn't.



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is still physically stronger than Kimimaro, and is good enough at Taijutsu that his speed advantage and Sharingan should more than compensate for Kimimaro's marginal advantage in skill.



Not sure what strength feat kid Itachi has that put him above any version of Kimimaro, let alone the dinosaur one that was breaking out of Sand Coffins.

Also not seeing why Kimimaro's advantage is only marginal, but regardless of that, the ability to sprout bones wherever Itachi may want to strike makes close combat problematic. 




> Itachi is the same guy who stepped with KCM Naruto and Killer B, so that really shouldn't be too demanding in this case.



Child Itachi has never done such a thing, because he isn't capable of doing it. Either of those guys would slaughter him without effort, _especially_ if he can't even use genjutsu.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is still physically stronger than Kimimaro




Itachi is a full .5 on data book higher in strength ( Hardly makes a difference ) Also kimi's got full 2 point advantage in stamina. Believe me, against someone with Kimi's durability endurance will come into play.



Nikushimi said:


> And sorry, but Kimi has no feats to suggest he can simply tank Goukakyuu; scale his Stage Two durability and flame resistance to Hebi Sasuke if you like, but he's still going to take some damage from Itachi's Katon.



We havent got to see itachi do any decent amounts of damage with Katon's to someone with Kimi's durability, so theres nothing to suggest that Goukakyuu will kill Kimi easily 



Nikushimi said:


> Ninja tools may not penetrate Shikkotsumyaku, but Itachi's got this uncanny talent for redirecting thrown projectiles to unguarded areas with laser-guided accuracy



I imagine that Kimi is skilled enough to block a lot of kunai and shiruken throws. And his 'dance' style even in base form is very unpredictable. Though I think the sharingan will help out a lot, its not a given for Itachi to land any blows cleanly.




Nikushimi said:


> it's just a matter of overpowering and outmaneuvering Kimimaro to strike a vital point



Again theres not going to be any overpowering going on when they are near identical in the strength category. Also as I said before Kimi's dance style with bones coming from all areas of his body can block most attacks



Nikushimi said:


> roasting him with Katon and *wearing him down *in his own Taijutsu game.



Itachi will wear down much faster. Also this is healthy Kimi, so its not like he will peal over and die on Itachi. 



Nikushimi said:


> Itachi is the same guy who stepped with KCM Naruto and Killer B, so that really shouldn't be too demanding in this case.



This is also Anbu Itachi, not Edo Itachi (His strongest form). Also its skeptical because Naruto obviously didn't seem to be trying to pressure Itachi all that much, they were talking and he wasn't engaging seriously. I think people use that as a false feat for Itachi. And he was mainly evading and running from a base Killer bee, not once did Itachi counter attack once Bee started his sword dance.


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

I struggle to see the point of this thread when you restrict everything from Itachi except for stuff that wouldn't work anyway. And start a healthy Kimimaro out in his transformed state to boot. Might as well make it a taijutsu bout.

Kimimaro wins. I don't see Katon: Gōkakyū accomplishing much here. Kimimaro can dodge and his bones would protect him anyway.


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## Nikushimi (Oct 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Not sure what strength feat kid Itachi has that put him above any version of Kimimaro, let alone the dinosaur one that was breaking out of Sand Coffins.
> 
> Also not seeing why Kimimaro's advantage is only marginal, but regardless of that, the ability to sprout bones wherever Itachi may want to strike makes close combat problematic.
> 
> ...



I was just sort of assuming that Anbu Itachi had the same basic abilities as adult Itachi, since everyone else tends to.

If not, then I've been itching to be a huge dick about the fact that Itachi beat Orochimaru when he was only 12 and should have gotten a lot stronger since then. ck



JuicyG said:


> Itachi is a full .5 on data book higher in strength ( Hardly makes a difference ) Also kimi's got full 2 point advantage in stamina. Believe me, against someone with Kimi's durability endurance will come into play.



True enough; I was just pointing out that Itachi does have the strength advantage, which is somewhat comical given how different of a priority Taijutsu is in their respective arsenals.



> We havent got to see itachi do any decent amounts of damage with Katon's to someone with Kimi's durability, so theres nothing to suggest that Goukakyuu will kill Kimi easily



1. Durability isn't necessarily a good defense against fire.

2. Hebi Sasuke has better durability feats than Kimimaro. By. Far.



> I imagine that Kimi is skilled enough to block a lot of kunai and shiruken throws. And his 'dance' style even in base form is very unpredictable. Though I think the sharingan will help out a lot, its not a given for Itachi to land any blows cleanly.



 B is the only one we've seen pull that off successfully, and he was fast enough to intercept Minato coming out of Hiraishin. Kimi might be in over his head.



> Again theres not going to be any overpowering going on when they are near identical in the strength category. Also as I said before Kimi's dance style with bones coming from all areas of his body can block most attacks



Evading Kimimaro's bones shouldn't be a problem for Itachi, of all people. Lee was doing it.



> Itachi will wear down much faster. Also this is healthy Kimi, so its not like he will peal over and die on Itachi.



He will if a vital spot gets punctured.



> This is also Anbu Itachi, not Edo Itachi (His strongest form).



The difference is hard to make out, since Edo Itachi is essentially just a tireless adult Itachi, and we don't really know how a younger Itachi stacks up. But given his defeat of Orochimaru, maybe it's not a stretch to say Itachi got close to his peak at an early age.



> Also its skeptical because Naruto obviously didn't seem to be trying to pressure Itachi all that much, they were talking and he wasn't engaging seriously. I think people use that as a false feat for Itachi.



That sounds like you're gauging the feat based on expectation, rather than expectation based on feats. Nothing actually indicates that Naruto was pulling his punches there. Some people like to bring up the fact that they were talking, but...Itachi was talking, too.



> And he was mainly evading and running from a base Killer bee, not once did Itachi counter attack once Bee started his sword dance.



Do you really think Kimimaro could?


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Thunder said:


> I struggle to see the point of this thread when you restrict everything from Itachi except for stuff that wouldn't work anyway. And start a healthy Kimimaro out in his transformed state to boot. Might as well make it a taijutsu bout.
> 
> Kimimaro wins. I don't see Katon: Gōkakyū accomplishing much here. Kimimaro can dodge and his bones would protect him anyway.




What are you saying, point of thread ?

What exactly is the point of any thread ? Is there no point because you believe Itachi can not win or what ?

This is Anbu Itachi who didn't posses the MS early on during time spent with Shisui. Genjutsu is restricted because Kimi hasn't shown any genjutsu defense. Also some people argue that Itachi can beat Base Gai in Taijutsu.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Nikushimi said:


> 1. Durability isn't necessarily a good defense against fire.
> 
> 2. Hebi Sasuke has better durability feats than Kimimaro. By. Far.



1- Do you think the 3rd Raikage's durability would be shut down due to Itachi's Katon ? Not the same thing, but just saying

2- What has Hebi Sasuke suffered and lived to keep fighting that was more crushing than Gaara's sand, several times, underground ?



Nikushimi said:


> Evading Kimimaro's bones shouldn't be a problem for Itachi, of all people. *Lee was doing it.*



Lee was barely evading kimi. But that was Kimi in his base form while sick against drunken lee. Still very difficult 




Nikushimi said:


> He will if a vital spot gets punctured.



Full knowledge we can expect Kimi to protect those 'vital' that aren't shielded by armor





Nikushimi said:


> That sounds like you're gauging the feat based on expectation, rather than expectation based on feats. Nothing actually indicates that Naruto was pulling his punches there. Some people like to bring up the fact that they were talking, but...Itachi was talking, too.



It was more like they were having a light sparring match while chatting. KCM was on par with V2 Ei. Itachi has never been shown to be that fast.




Nikushimi said:


> Do you really think Kimimaro could?




I wasnt the one using Bee as a feat.


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## FlamingRain (Oct 6, 2014)

Rocky said:


> How many times do you think that's going to work? Fireball Jutsu isn't exactly fast, nor is it a subtle technique. He'd just dodge it, like Sakura. A clone feint may work once or twice, but I don't see it happening anymore than that, and the Katon isn't even guaranteed to land should the feint succeed.



Quite a few.

If I were going to claim the fireball was particularly fast and sneaky I wouldn't have admitted that he'd need to rely on clones to actually land it. The entire point of those clones is to force Kimimaro into a positional disadvantage where he can be smacked with a fireball he's not ready to dodge because he's pre-occupied with another combatant.

The fireball Sakura dodged was launched from a sizable distance in plain sight and without any sort of distraction in place. It's not going to be nearly that simple this time.



> Kakashi's estimations in Part 1 were likely based of the Uchiha Clan massacre.



That's not likely at all. He specifically brought up the Anbu captain at 13 thing when he made the comment.

As for the massacre, for all we know what they thought was that he murdered everyone in the Uchiha clan in their sleep or something since it happened overnight and everything. Really it's either that, or Asuma and Kurenai are just that _stupid_ as to challenge somebody who solo'd one of the strongest clans in Konoha when they were attentive....with Genjutsu of all things...


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## Almondsand (Oct 6, 2014)

ANBU Itachi was squad captain of the Hokage fleet at 11... and you put him against Kimimaro? Give Kimimaro all his jutsu. You better limit Genjutsu. Even without that, if a couple of genin can beat Kimimaro, and he's weaker than Orochimaru. Why is there any debate?


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## Thunder (Oct 6, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> What are you saying, point of thread ?
> 
> What exactly is the point of any thread ? Is there no point because you believe Itachi can not win or what ?



I mean it seems a tad unbalanced to me because one side is heavily  restricted and lacks feats while the other was given a buff (is  healthy) and starts transformed. 

That's all. Seems like a discussion is brewing so don't worry about it. 



> This is Anbu Itachi who didn't posses the MS early on during time spent with Shisui. Genjutsu is restricted because Kimi hasn't shown any genjutsu defense. Also some people argue that Itachi can beat Base Gai in Taijutsu.



I understand Itachi wouldn't have the Mangekyō Sharingan at that point in time. And I understand genjutsu would probably end the match if it was allowed. Not becuase Kimimaro doesn't have genjutsu defense (most characters of his level have some counter to it) but because Itachi is exceptional with the art.


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## JuicyG (Oct 6, 2014)

Almondsand said:


> ANBU Itachi was squad captain of the Hokage fleet at 11... and you put him against Kimimaro? Give Kimimaro all his jutsu. You better limit Genjutsu. Even without that, if a couple of genin can beat Kimimaro, and he's weaker than Orochimaru. Why is there any debate?




Those Genins that fought with Kimi were on par (based on feats) with most Jounins at the time. Were talking about fighting KN0 Naruto, then Drunk Master Lee, then Gaara (who counters CQC fighters). And he was about _WIN_ all while being on his death bed. You underestimate Kimi too much apparently.

Orochimaru was beat by genjutsu, not by Itachi's CQC abilities. That is totally irrelevant in this match.


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## Bloo (Oct 7, 2014)

I was going to give this to Itachi until I saw a restriction on genjutsu... With that in mind, Itachi has no way to take out Kimmimaro. I would give Kimmimaro the win simply because of his immense durability.

One way or another, Itachi will most likely be outlasted.


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## DaVizWiz (Oct 7, 2014)

Depends whether or not fire ninjutsu will work against his defense. It would definitely torch his eyes out if it hit directly and the flames would climb down his mouth into his body and light his organs up. If he put his arms with bones expanding from his limbs in front of his face or turns around at the moment of exposure he'd probably survive it. 

Question is whether or not Itachi is fast enough to land a direct Fire Ball, because his clones aren't going to do anything- CS1/CS2 Kimimaro can literally bull through them with pine dance and their weak-ass kunai throws bouncing off while still chasing Itachi.


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## Monster (Oct 7, 2014)

Itachi always rapes.


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## Punished Pathos (Oct 7, 2014)

Kimimaro takes this easily 

Negative Difficulty 

Seriously, CS1 Kimi shits on an Anbu Itachi.
Do people forget that a base Kimi defeated all of CS2 versions of Sound Four at once?
That means he blitzed through Tayuya's sound genjutsu.
Overwhelmed Jirobo's strength.
Trolled Sakon/Ukon in CQC
Blitzed Kidomaru.

Anbu Itachi stands no chance against a healthy Kimimaro


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

Itachi may not harm him easily, but he sure can wear him down. Cursed seal is like a double edged sword, the more you use it the more it damages your body. Itachi has clones and lots of ranged options here. he can create and exploit openings, force him to jump and force him to tank his katons.

Won't be an easy win but Itachi surely has a shot here.


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2014)

Dem restrictions on Itachi and being healthy doesn't affect Kimi's stats at all.

Kimimaro is still not hitting Itachi due to the latter's Sharingan and speed. Itachi still has solid chances of beating Kimi by wearing him down or hitting a vital spot with sword/kunai/shuriken using bunshin feints.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> but he sure can wear him down



I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Kimi will be the one worn down. This isn't death bed Kimi, he's healthy. Also Itachi's stamina is down right terrible, and couple that with the fact that Itachi is the one who has to do the dodging and jumping around to land _'vital'_ shots. Itachi will be the one worn down.



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Cursed seal is like a double edged sword, the more you use it the more it damages your body.



The more Itachi fights, the more he wears down



Grimmjowsensei said:


> Itachi has clones and lots of ranged options here. he can create and exploit openings, force him to jump and force him to tank his katons.



Kunai's & shriukens are blocked by skills and bones sprouting from all parts of his body. He only needs to protect the eyes most likely from the weaponry. Katon's can be evaded or Itachi simply runs out of chakra over time. He'll need clone feints to land direct hits over & over, which will force him out of reserves. 





saikyou said:


> Kimimaro is still not hitting Itachi due to the latter's Sharingan and speed.



And how is Itachi hitting Kimi exactly ? Itachi will run out of energy first anyways



saikyou said:


> Itachi still has solid chances of beating Kimi by *wearing him down* or hitting a vital spot with sword/kunai/shuriken using bunshin feints.



Again Itachi is the one thats going to be 'worn down'. *A death bed* Kimi fought 3 opponents (KNO Naruto-Drunk Lee, Gaara) consecutively and was crushed by Gaara's sand several times and still kept fighting. Itachi has nothing left in his arsenal besides Katon that can put him down, maybe put him down. Even then Itachi will drain himself trying to land direct hits and dodging bones at the same time


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2014)

After some Konoha Jounin stomping by Itachi Kakashi himself says this is not even all of Itachi's strength. 

ANBU captain Itachi >>> part 1 Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai. Kimi would get his shit stomped by Kakashi.

Only reason why Itachi would have trouble defeating Kimimaro is because he has access only to Katon and ninja tools in here. 



JuicyG said:


> And how is Itachi hitting Kimi exactly ?


By predicting his movements and having advantage in numbers.




> Itachi will run out of energy first anyways


Feel free to tell me why exactly. Dying blind Itachi outlasted Hebi Sasuke and this is Itachi that is not ill nor will be using MS techniques that eat up chakra and stamina quickly. 

And jfyi Itachi's performance was actually said to be hindered by his illness. Nowhere was it said that Kimimaro's illness lowered his stats.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> After some Konoha Jounin stomping by Itachi Kakashi himself says this is not even all of Itachi's strength.
> 
> ANBU captain Itachi >>> part 1 Kakashi, Asuma and Kurenai. Kimi would get his shit stomped by Kakashi.



Your trying to use hype & portrayal, sorry that doesnt work in BD. You'll need feats, and logic to debate your points. Try again. 




saikyou said:


> Feel free to tell me why exactly. Dying blind Itachi outlasted Hebi Sasuke and this is Itachi that is not ill nor will be using MS techniques that eat up chakra and stamina quickly.



Because Itachi still only has a stamina mark of 2.5, whereas Kimi's is 4.5. Thats a fairly large difference when the score itself tops off at 5 in the data book. Also Kimi himself isn't the one whose going to be using clone feints, spamming katon's and dodging all attacks like Itachi will be doing. Kimi can simply focus on blocking any attacks that are aimed at his eyes, the rest can be tanked.  

Also Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu requires more than average chakra reserves (Itachi is already low) and takes 6 hand seals to complete the jutsu. Meaning it can be dodged rather simply due to the fact this is also full intel...



saikyou said:


> And jfyi Itachi's performance was actually said to be hindered by his illness. Nowhere was it said that Kimimaro's illness lowered his stats.




You can say and assume what you'd like, but if a guy is going to die in the middle of his fight, he had to be pretty damn ill.


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Your trying to use hype & portrayal, sorry that doesnt work in BD. You'll need feats, and logic to debate your points. Try again.


You're*

Since when stomping two Jounins which include the village's top Jounin is not a feat? Kakashi says that Itachi from the ANBU days would be capable of that and even more. 

That is not just some baseless hype and loltrayal. 



> and logic


That is just what I used. 



> Because Itachi still only has a stamina mark of 2.5,


Contradicts manga (which is > databook) then. Itachi's performance stamina wise was impressive considering the conditions.


> whereas Kimi's is 4.5.


Further supports my claim that Kimi's illness didn't affect him battle wise. He was just a ticking time bomb.



> Also Kimi himself isn't the one whose going to be using clone feints, spamming katon's and dodging all attacks like Itachi will be doing.


Dodging Kimi's attack will be easy as murdering Uchiha babies for Itachi. This is a guy with jounin+ physical stats and Sharingan pre cog. He doesn't need to use bunshins and katons in order to evade. Itachi won't waste his chakra unnecessarily. When he wants to hit he hits.  


> Kimi can simply focus on blocking any attacks that are aimed at his eyes, the rest can be tanked.


I'd love to see him do that against a much superior fighter. You seem to forget that Itachi is faster and is able to see where Kimi moves the whole fight.

Kimimaro is not tanking an attack he won't see coming. Show me some feats of Kimi's passive durability that allow him to take a sword to the neck.  


> Also Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu requires more than average chakra reserves


And Itachi was capable of this since he was like 6-7 years old. Meaning his chakra reserves aren't small.


> (Itachi is already low)


???


> and takes 6 hand seals to complete the jutsu. Meaning it can be dodged rather simply due to the fact this is also full intel...


Forming six hand seals takes Itachi like fraction of a second. Kakashi and Sasuke weren't even able to see when Itachi used Ninjutsu/switched places with a bunshin and you somehow except Kimimaro being able to? 





> You can say and assume what you'd like, but if a guy is going to die in the middle of his fight, he had to be pretty damn ill.


When the fuck did I say Kimimaro wasn't ill? As I already said he was just a ticking time bomb. *Nowhere was said that the illness reduced his stats.*


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

saikyou said:


> Since when stomping two Jounins which include the village's top Jounin is not a feat? Kakashi says that Itachi from the ANBU days would be capable of that and even more.
> 
> That is not just some baseless hype and loltrayal.



LOL'd

I bet your one of the people who ignores Hiruzen's hype and portrayal ( God of Shinobi ). But yet you'll quickly accept any Itachi portrayal...SMH  




saikyou said:


> Dodging Kimi's attack will be easy as murdering Uchiha babies for Itachi. This is a guy with jounin+ physical stats and Sharingan pre cog. He doesn't need to use bunshins and katons in order to evade. Itachi won't waste his chakra unnecessarily. When he wants to hit he hits.



More like runs away from everything Kimi has offensively. Kimi is not slow and has long range options with Teshi Sendan, Yanagi no Mai if Itachi gets close. Besides that, its Itachi who will be needing to use bushins and katons in order to even attempt to kill Kimi and I'm pretty sure your aware of that....



saikyou said:


> You seem to forget that Itachi is faster and is able to see where Kimi moves the whole fight.



Itachi is faster, but marginally. Also, who cares, Kimi can simply wait until Itachi wears himself out trying to kill Kimi and then make a precision kill. Itachi has the bigger task.



saikyou said:


> Kimimaro is not tanking an attack he won't see coming. Show me some feats of Kimi's passive durability that allow him to take a sword to the neck.



Read the manga dude. Shikotsumyaku (kekkei genkai) allows Kimi's whole body to be protected by bone that is as strong as tempered steel. He was crushed several times by Gaara's sand, that should tell you something. And since when will Itachi land a blind hit on Kimi in CQC with Kimi's bones sprouting in all directions ? 




saikyou said:


> Forming six hand seals takes Itachi like fraction of a second. Kakashi and Sasuke weren't even able to see when Itachi used Ninjutsu/switched places with a bunshin and you somehow except Kimimaro being able to?



Kimi isn't slow. Sakura evaded Katon, Kimi can too.


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2014)

Kimimaro must consciously use his bloodline limit to grow bones for defense and offense. So if attack is too fast or comes from the blind spot - he'd be damaged as normal people.

Pre-MS Itachi judging by his few applicable feats and statements regarding his level at that age should have clear superiority in terms of speed(and arguably overall ability) even with CS1 boosting Kimi. We saw Itachi humiliating 3 grown up Uchihas with each 3-tomoe with one of them being specifically hyped in Databook as a notable Uchiha Clan member. And it was just a couple of days after Shisui's death so that feat is applicable. 

We saw Itachi casually pressuring Konoha Jonins and Kakashi still stating that his true skills haven't been used yet. Again alluding that ANBU Itachi either directly showed something greater or achieved something greater in ANBU missions so that Kakashi would have enough info to warrant such statement. Btw Kakashi using "ANBU captain" hype was more about potential progress imo - like "this guy was _that_ strong ~10 years ago/when he was a kid, imagine his current level".

All that + feats of advanced kunai-throwing. Plus potential jutsu - Itachi might already have KB or even exploding KB and his Katon Shuriken tech. 3-tomoe precog perks. Plus ambiguous time-line(beating Oro/being in Akatsuki before MS).

vs guy who had troubles with P1 weakened base Lee.

Yeah, Itachi's main weapon(genjutsu) is restricted and Kimimaro's defenses would be tricky to deal with using Itachi's known arsenal but I still see Itachi being overall superior even at that age. He is truly a freak when growth is concerned.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Kimimaro must consciously use his bloodline limit to grow bones for defense and offense. So if attack is too fast or comes from the blind spot - he'd be damaged as normal people.



Proof of this claim ?



Alex Payne said:


> Pre-MS Itachi judging by his few applicable feats and statements regarding his level at that age should have clear superiority in terms of speed(and arguably overall ability) even with CS1 boosting Kimi. We saw Itachi humiliating 3 grown up Uchihas with each 3-tomoe with one of them being specifically hyped in Databook as a notable Uchiha Clan member. And it was just a couple of days after Shisui's death so that feat is applicable.
> 
> We saw Itachi casually pressuring Konoha Jonins and Kakashi still stating that his true skills haven't been used yet. Again alluding that ANBU Itachi either directly showed something greater or achieved something greater in ANBU missions so that Kakashi would have enough info to warrant such statement. Btw Kakashi using "ANBU captain" hype was more about potential progress imo - like "this guy was _that_ strong ~10 years ago/when he was a kid, imagine his current level".



All that BS is just hype + portrayal. But again, you will likely not accept Prime Hiruzen's hype even though its canonically stated several times about how great he was...hypocritical  



Alex Payne said:


> All that + feats of advanced kunai-throwing.



Its like your ignoring the fact that Kimi is an expert with 5 in DB in CQC



Alex Payne said:


> Plus potential jutsu - ...........



Potential jutsu's don't count



Alex Payne said:


> vs guy who had troubles with P1 weakened base Lee.



It was also a death bed ridden *base* Kimi against drunk lee. Who just got down dispatching KN0 Naruto. 



Alex Payne said:


> Yeah, Itachi's main weapon(genjutsu) is restricted and Kimimaro's defenses would be tricky to deal with using Itachi's known arsenal but I still see Itachi being overall superior even at that age. He is truly a freak when growth is concerned.




Well everyone else besides the obvious Itachi fans think its lop sided in favor of Kimi...go figure


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## Alex Payne (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Proof of this claim ?


 Common sense. Or do you think his bones have mind on their own?


JuicyG said:


> All that BS is just hype + portrayal. But again, you will likely not accept Prime Hiruzen's hype even though its canonically stated several times about how great he was...hypocritical


 I really dislike this kind of bullshit. Quote me where I was clearly dismissing Hiruzen's hype in a serious debate. And quote other posters whom you've been accusing of the same thing just because they disagree with you on a completely unrelated subject. 


JuicyG said:


> Its like your ignoring the fact that Kimi is an expert with 5 in DB in CQC


 Kurenai is an expert 5.0 in genjutsu. Orochimaru is an expert 5.0 in genjutsu. Guess what another expert 5.0 in genjutsu Itachi did to them. Starts with S ends with P.



JuicyG said:


> Potential jutsu's don't count


 Yet another Itachi-nerf... I wonder why. Why are you using ambiguous character in your match when you don't allow healthy speculations about said character's abilities?



JuicyG said:


> It was also a death bed ridden *base* Kimi against drunk lee. Who just got down dispatching KN0 Naruto.


 People who would've been stomped by Itachi no-diff based on him dominating 3 Uchihas in CQC. 



JuicyG said:


> Well everyone else besides the obvious Itachi fans think its lop sided in favor of Kimi...go figure


 I am not even an Itachi-fan. But if I'd have to pick a side - between them and people like you who post spite-threads while hiding behind "I am proving that those fanboys are wrong!" I'd rather be grouped with them. How about you post a good, interesting and balanced thread for a change? Without any underlying agenda?


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> I don't understand where people are getting the idea that Kimi will be the one worn down. This isn't death bed Kimi, he's healthy. Also Itachi's stamina is down right terrible, and couple that with the fact that Itachi is the one who has to do the dodging and jumping around to land _'vital'_ shots. Itachi will be the one worn down.


Itachi has sharingan precog, so whatever they'll be doing, Itachi'll do it with less effort. Kimi will have to use CS and his bone armor constantly to be able to keep up.



> The more Itachi fights, the more he wears down


Same goes for everyone.



> Kunai's & shriukens are blocked by skills and bones sprouting from all parts of his body.


Even the ones coming from his blindspots ? 



> He only needs to protect the eyes most likely from the weaponry. Katon's can be evaded or Itachi simply runs out of chakra over time. He'll need clone feints to land direct hits over & over, which will force him out of reserves.



Your argument relies on the fact that all of Itachi's efforts will be in vain. 
I simply disagree.



> And how is Itachi hitting Kimi exactly ? Itachi will run out of energy first anyways


With superior speed, intelligence, insight and more versatile arsenal.
How is Kimimaro hitting Itachi ?



> Again Itachi is the one thats going to be 'worn down'. *A death bed* Kimi fought 3 opponents (KNO Naruto-Drunk Lee, Gaara) consecutively and was crushed by Gaara's sand several times and still kept fighting. Itachi has nothing left in his arsenal besides Katon that can put him down, maybe put him down. Even then Itachi will drain himself trying to land direct hits and dodging bones at the same time



Death bed Kimimaro didn't keel over and caugh blood during his fight. I'd reckon his condition wasn't as severe as Itachi's, or the drugs Kabuto injected him did a magnificent job @ restoring him to his prime. Or it was just plot. 
Eitherway, the difference between death bed Kimi and prime Kimi is unquantifiable.


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## Ghost (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> LOL'd


Commit sudoku please.


> I bet your one of the people who ignores Hiruzen's hype and portrayal ( God of Shinobi ). But yet you'll quickly accept any Itachi portrayal...SMH


God of Shinobi title was obviously retconned to Hashirama. Itachi's strength not.  




> More like runs away from everything Kimi has offensively.


Kimi would have to be like 4-5 tiers higher in order to make Itachi run away from his attacks.


> Kimi is not slow


Compared to Itachi he is.


> and has *long range options* with Teshi Sendan, Yanagi no Mai* if Itachi gets close*.


You are not making any sense. 

And Teshi Sendan is more like close to mid range technique. Not that it matters since Itachi dodges it easily. Fucking part 1 Gaara saw it coming and his sand managed to block it.


> Besides that, its Itachi who will be needing to use bushins and katons in order to even attempt to kill Kimi and I'm pretty sure your aware of that....


So you think Itachi is gonna need like 100000 bunshins in order to inflict damage to Kimimaro and do this like five times?

Itachi needs max two bunshins in order to execute the feint and stick his sword into Kimi's neck.



> Itachi is faster, but marginally. Also, who cares,


Itachi is actually quite noticeably faster and Kimimaro cares because he can't land a single hit.


> Kimi can simply wait until Itachi wears himself out trying to kill Kimi


Wait as in just stand there? You still seem to think that Itachi dies out of exhaustion after taking five steps.


> and then make a precision kill.


lul how? Itachi kills Kimi in five minutes into the fight. 



> Itachi has the bigger task.


How exactly? Itachi is the S-rank Shinobi while Kimi is low jounin *at best.*




> Read the manga dude.


Read manga and other people posts dude.


> Shikotsumyaku (kekkei genkai) allows Kimi's whole body to be protected by bone that is as strong as tempered steel. He was crushed several times by Gaara's sand, that should tell you something.


*As I've said Kimimaro's passive durability is not on the level as it is when he is utilizing his Kekke Genkai.
*


> And since when will Itachi land a blind hit on Kimi in CQC with Kimi's bones sprouting in all directions ?


Kimimaro's bones are not sprouting in every direction 100% of the time. Also you seem to forget that Kimi will be long dead before he realizes that he needs to be on defensive. 





> Kimi isn't slow. Sakura evaded Katon, Kimi can too.


Sakura evaded Itachi's Katon from like what 20 meters? Itachi will be spitting fire on Kimi's face point blank before the latter can even react.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> Common sense. Or do you think his bones have mind on their own?



Sorry that's not a scan or proof so I cant asses it.



Alex Payne said:


> I really dislike this kind of bullshit. Quote me where I was clearly dismissing Hiruzen's hype in a serious debate. And quote other posters whom you've been accusing of the same thing just because they disagree with you on a completely unrelated subject.



I dont care what you dislike frankly. You want me to accept Itachi's hype & portrayal, but not others like Hiruzen. Just a comparison of hypo-critics like yourself


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## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2014)

Okay so massivley gimped 13 year old Itachi vs prime condition Kimmimaro with Full knowledge? Okay well let's take a look:
Taijutsu/CqC:
-Kimmimaro's style is deadlier and his dances imply more skill in a a distinct style, but Itachi even at this age has magnificent feats of beating 3 Uchiha Jonin and scaring the piss out of Fugaku. Itachi's speed should also be somewhere around Hebi's Sasuke's at this point IMO based off of scaling, and he has the benefit of sharingan pre-cog. So in other words, while Kimmi is deadlier, stronger, and more efficient; he'll be hardpressed to make use of these qualities because of the speed/reaction gap present.

Ninjutsu/Range:
Itachi clearly is the victor in this category. He has Katon to try and burn Kimmi through and though, and suiton's for LOS breakers, and damage (however small it may be). His bushin game just decreases the odds that Kimmo hits him, and fire flow may come in handy when trying to injure Kimmo. 

Durability/Endurance:
Kimmo seems like he would clearly win this category, although the problem is he needs CS to pressure Itachi and the more CS he uses the more it hurts his body. So while Kimmo's durability and natural stamina may be better, the continued use of his bone jutsu and CS will bring down his endurance ability.

So overall it's a battle of Itachi using Katon/Suiton to try and injure Kimmo, vs Kimmo and his CS trying to land a good hit on Itachi. But in the end I think Itachi with better speed/reactions + his bushin game will be able to hold out while he attacks from range with katon, and in close with fire flow. Kimmimaro can win by catching Itachi off guard with bone forest, but that's really the only way I see him doing so. Itachi High diff.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2014)

Alex Payne said:


> People who would've been stomped by Itachi no-diff based on him dominating 3 Uchihas in CQC.



Drunk Lee apparently knocked out Base Gai.

Itachi knocked out fodder. 

Uchiha fodder is still fodder imo, but regardless, I don't see how Kid Itachi knocking them down indicates that he would "no-diff" Drunken Fist Lee, who had Gai sweating hard at just the thought of him. Not to mention that unpredictability shits on Sharingan precognition.


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## IchLiebe (Oct 7, 2014)

FlamingRain said:


> Quite a few.
> 
> If I were going to claim the fireball was particularly fast and sneaky I wouldn't have admitted that he'd need to rely on clones to actually land it. The entire point of those clones is to force Kimimaro into a positional disadvantage where he can be smacked with a fireball he's not ready to dodge because he's pre-occupied with another combatant.
> 
> The fireball Sakura dodged was launched from a sizable distance in plain sight and without any sort of distraction in place. It's not going to be nearly that simple this time.


And I seen no feat from the fireball to suggest that it can melt organs. Karin who was hit by Amaterasu(unless you think its of lower temperature than the Fireball which I hope you don't) wasn't injured internally. Kimi will straight tank through the fireball and whatever damage he does receive is healed. Also we don't know where Kimi's organs are. I know it sounds illogical but his clan has different body structures compared to everyone else, Kabuto noted this was why it was so difficult research the illness and prolong his life even further.

Kimi wrecked all of Naruto's clones without being hit once or even scratched. I don't see Itachi's doing anything other than taking a hit a poofing. Then was fighting Lee with ease. 




> That's not likely at all. He specifically brought up the Anbu captain at 13 thing when he made the comment.


And Kimi has a KG that automatically makes him atleast chunnin(like Itachi) and has skills that easily put him into the Jounin category. Kimi canonically beat all S4 members at the same time with ease.



> As for the massacre, for all we know what they thought was that he murdered everyone in the Uchiha clan in their sleep or something since it happened overnight and everything. Really it's either that, or Asuma and Kurenai are just that _stupid_ as to challenge somebody who solo'd one of the strongest clans in Konoha when they were attentive....with Genjutsu of all things...


Kurenai is like top tier fodder. Kishi more or less cast her to side to make little shinobis. While Asuma could hold his own, he was a disgrace to most high-tier jounins which he should've been.


Kimi stomps. Itachi can't do shit against Kimi and yes that includes a point blank Fireball(the biggest and hottest Itachi "can" form) to the face of Kimi.


Kimi 10/10. or a draw due to Itachi making a tactical retreat to get support.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> but Itachi even at this age has magnificent feats of beating 3 Uchiha Jonin



LOL'd

We don't even know how strong those 3 were. Whose to say Kimi couldnt have done the same thing ? LOL hardly a feat to speak of 




Dr. White said:


> Itachi's speed should also be somewhere around Hebi's Sasuke's at this point IMO based off of scaling



Show me how you decided to scale that please. 



Dr. White said:


> speed/reaction gap present



Yes, its present, but not overwhelming




Dr. White said:


> IHe has Katon to try and burn Kimmi through His bushin game just decreases the odds that Kimmo hits him, and fire flow may come in handy when trying to injure Kimmo.



Seems like he'll wear himself out quickly with large Katons which take considerable amounts of chakra everytime its used. I see Kimi dodging a few anyways..



Dr. White said:


> Kimmo seems like he would clearly win this category, although the problem is he needs CS to pressure Itachi and the more CS he uses the more it hurts his body. So while Kimmo's durability and natural stamina may be better, the continued use of his bone jutsu and CS will bring down his endurance ability.



The more Itachi fights, spams katons and clones, the slower he'll become. Stamina is a thing



Dr. White said:


> So overall it's a battle of Itachi using Katon/Suiton to try and injure Kimmo, vs Kimmo and his CS trying to land a good hit on Itachi.



IF bone forest was allowed. Kimi would win everytime..But its restricted. Also you must have forgot that Kimi has a long range option as well as bones sprouting from all parts of his body for protection. Itachi must attack from range, and hope its enough to kill Kimi before he's drained of chakra..

I see it has Kimi - mid diff


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## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Drunk Lee apparently knocked out Base Gai.


You can't equate the two situations like you're trying to. Gai got caught off guard by the random factor of Lee going crazy when Drunk, and they weren't training or in combat, they were eating/drinking. Gai also wasn't gonna seriously go at Lee despite his condition. 



> Itachi knocked out fodder.
> 
> Uchiha fodder is still fodder imo, but regardless, I don't see how Kid Itachi knocking them down indicates that he would "no-diff" Drunken Fist Lee, who had Gai sweating hard at just the thought of him.


Those "fodder" were 3 top leading Uchiha members. So despite being atleast Jonin level (think a bit higher than Anko level), they get Uchiha hax of pre-cog, katon, and Genjutsu. Fodder w/ pre-cog, copying, genjutsu, and katon >> regular fodder.

The reason you can't equate that with the Gai situation is that they approached him with malevolent intent, and not only outranked him, but outnumbered him. Despite that they were on the losing end and even Fugaku was looking like " Don't expect me to jump in and save your asses"

Although I don't think 13 year old Itachi would no diff drunk Lee. He would low diff him just simply based on reaction/speed/skill gap. Also Uchiha in general hardcounter that fighting style simply because the "unpredictable movement" that makes the style is telegraphed completely. So unless you have a pt. 1 Lee vs WA Sasuke situation, it's pretty much mitigated.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Those "fodder" were 3 top leading Uchiha members. So despite being atleast Jonin level (think a bit higher than Anko level), they get Uchiha hax of pre-cog, katon, and Genjutsu. Fodder w/ pre-cog, copying, genjutsu, and katon >> regular fodder.



I have a thread open in Library speaking of the strength of the general Uchiha clan member. Most people don't consider them very impressive. As a clan they were still suppressed by Konoha with the strongest in the village being Old Hiruzen, Kakashi Part 1 and Gai Part 1 .....We can't assume anything besides they were noob Uchiha's who most likely didn't use Sharingan very well at all.

If that wasnt the case then a full clan of sharingan wielders would destroy the world.


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## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> LOL'd
> 
> We don't even know how strong those 3 were. Whose to say Kimi couldnt have done the same thing ? LOL hardly a feat to speak of


They were 3 High Ranking Uchiha. They were atleast on Fugaku's level (Jonin) and worked for the Police force. We saw how strong just simply obtaining the sharingan makes one (see Sasuke or Kakashi), so putting a set on a random Jonin makes them decently formidable. Especially to a 13 year old. 

For reference, Kishi portrayed all special Jonin as able to solo anyone in the CE exams. Hence why they were the refs. Itachi beating 3 Uchiha jounin would be like part 1 Sasuke beating 3 pt. 1 Jounin with sharingan.






> Show me how you decided to scale that please.


Itachi at 13 was portrayed to be on another level than say pt. 1 Sasuke (who was "gifted" and had sharingan like his brother). His ability to beat 3 Uchiha Jounin proved his skill in Taijutsu and is a great reaction feat. He also mastered the sharingan by ten, which was shown when his genjutsu was able to do things only Hebi Sasuke could perform. He was also allowed to Join the akatsuki immediately at that age suggesting he could hang with high tiers physically. So scaling him to Hebi Sasuke physically isn't farfetched especially considering by portrayal 13 year old Itachi could beat Hebi Sasuke.





> Yes, its present, but not overwhelming


Combined with his jutsu execution speed it kinda will be.




> Seems like he'll wear himself out quickly with large Katons which take considerable amounts of chakra everytime its used. I see Kimi dodging a few anyways..


Not really. Anyways since he isn't sick or using MS chakra won't really be an issue.





> The more Itachi fights, spams katons and clones, the slower he'll become. Stamina is a thing


Okay the more Kimmo uses CS and his bone jutsu, the more he becomes tired, but at a faster rate than Itachi..




> Also you must have forgot that Kimi has a long range option as well as bones sprouting from all parts of his body for protection. Itachi must attack from range, and hope its enough to kill Kimi before he's drained of chakra..


Kimmi has to be able to track his opponent and protect said body part, which with Itachi's speed and trickery will be extremely hard. Kimmi's long range option gets dodged all day seeing as it posed no threat speedwise to pre skip gaara.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> You can't equate the two situations like you're trying to. Gai got caught off guard by the random factor of Lee going crazy when Drunk, and they weren't training or in combat, they were eating/drinking. Gai also wasn't gonna seriously go at Lee despite his condition.



How did Gai get caught off guard? It wasn't an ambush. Gai's an elite ninja, not some scrub. Lee went crazy, but unless Gai's reflexes are too slow to react to Lee, then he should have been able to block this "unexpected attack," subdue him, and stop the destruction.

But he couldn't. 

Oh, and I'd like to note that Lee doesn't really possess the strength to knock Gai out in one hit, so this sneak attack thing doesn't fly. Drunken Fist Lee is probably just better than a Gai without intent to seriously harm (thus Gai's reaction to Lee being given alcohol again), and that's better than beating up fodder imo.



> Those "fodder" were 3 top leading Uchiha members. So despite being atleast Jonin level (think a bit higher than Anko level), they get Uchiha hax of pre-cog, katon, and Genjutsu. Fodder w/ pre-cog, copying, genjutsu, and katon >> regular fodder.



So they're higher end fodder? 



> Although I don't think 13 year old Itachi would no diff drunk Lee. He would low diff him just simply based on reaction/speed/skill gap.



I would love to see the feats from Kid Itachi that suggest he's more skilled than Drunk Lee. Lee was more skilled than Kimimaro (5/5), who's more skilled than Adult Itachi (4.5/5).

As for speed, Lee had a 4 in Base, but that went up when he became intoxicated, and Kid Itachi's is likely lower than his Adult Databook stat. They are probably both somewhere in the 4.5 tier, so the speed gap isn't all that gamebreaking. 



> Also Uchiha in general hardcounter that fighting style simply because the "unpredictable movement" that makes the style is telegraphed completely.



Does not compute. That's like saying B's swordplay is hard-countered by the 3-Tome because its "unpredictable movement is telegraphed."

It's the other way around. Unpredictability hard counters Sharingan, and Drunken Fist is completely unpredictable.



> For reference, Kishi portrayed all special Jonin as able to solo anyone in the CE exams. Hence why they were the refs.



Exams Naruto could summon a Jonin-Kage Level frog. Exams Gaara could turn into a biju. We're only talking taijutsu though, and people like Genma would probably be slaughtered by people like KN0 or 3-Tome Preskip Sasuke in CQC.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> They were 3 High Ranking Uchiha



Only thing that is near certain about them were that they had the 2-3 tomoe sharingan with obvious precog. Who else better to fight an Uchiha than another Uchiha ?



Dr. White said:


> Itachi beating 3 Uchiha jounin would be like part 1 Sasuke beating 3 pt. 1 Jounin with sharingan.



That's just fanfic on your part. I would place money that Kakashi, Gai, Asuma were stronger than those Uchiha's with _zero feats_




Dr. White said:


> Itachi at 13 was portrayed to be .....



I dont care about hype nor portrayal. Same with prime hiruzen, nobody wants to hear that shit





Dr. White said:


> Anyways since he isn't sick or using MS chakra won't really be an issue.



Sure it will. Itachi has always had a small chakra pool, and Katon: Gōkakyū no Jutsu uses considerable amounts of chakra





Dr. White said:


> Okay the more Kimmo uses CS and his bone jutsu, the more he becomes tired, but at a faster rate than Itachi..



Proof ? We all know CS eats away at someone, but it doesnt happen faster than Itachi. I can provide several scans of Itachi retreating for lack of chakra left.




Dr. White said:


> Kimmi has to be able to track his opponent and protect said body part, which with Itachi's speed and trickery will be extremely hard.




Doubt that 



Dr. White said:


> Kimmi's long range option gets dodged all day seeing as it posed no threat speedwise to pre skip gaara.



Gaara kept Kimi at distance...he counters CQC fighters unlike Itachi


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

^

Yeah, Drunken Lee's moves will be read just as easily. 
B's sword style is unpredictable because well, there are 7 swords and B flips them and shit. And Sasuke got his ass handed to him not simply because he couldn't predict em, but rather he physically couldn't deal with them. He was basically overhwhelmed.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> ^
> 
> Yeah, Drunken Lee's moves will be read just as easily.
> B's sword style is unpredictable because well, there are 7 swords and B flips them and shit. And Sasuke got his ass handed to him not simply because he couldn't predict em, but rather he physically couldn't deal with them. He was basically overhwhelmed.




Several bones sprouting from Kimi's body while he does his flower dance is similar in its own right. But of course Itachi was running from Bee ( at best evading without countering)


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Several bones sprouting from Kimi's body while he does his flower dance is similar in its own right. But of course Itachi was running from Bee ( at best evading without countering)



Why don't you create a Kimi vs Base B thread and see what everone else thinks ?


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Why don't you create a Kimi vs Base B thread and see what everone else thinks ?




Thats off-topic. Are you trying to debate still or what ? I expect better from you


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Thats off-topic. Are you trying to debate still or what ? I expect better from you



You made the comparison, how is it off topic ? Oh wait. You don't know what "off topic" means too.



Rocky said:


> B's swords are unreadable because his physical movements are unorthodox, which is exactly the case with any user of the Drunken Fist. It has nothing to do with biology. I mean, B's blades are being swung around by his arms...



When did a sharingan user fail to read B's movements again ?


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yeah, Drunken Lee's moves will be read just as easily.



Based on..?

Drunk Lee doesn't move like the linear KN0.



> And Sasuke got his ass handed to him not simply because he couldn't predict em, but rather he physically couldn't deal with them. He was basically overhwhelmed.



The moment Sasuke was knocked down, we get a panel of Suigetsu saying that B's movements are unreadable. The reason that Sasuke couldn't physically deal with them was due to their unpredictability.



> When did a sharingan user fail to read B's movements again ?



When Sharingan Sasuke was outplayed by B. 

It evidently wasn't a matter of speed or strength. Sasuke's Sharingan could read v1 B (who's faster than Base B), and B didn't overpower Sasuke with a direct stab.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> You made the comparison, how is it off topic ? Oh wait. You don't know what "off topic" means too.





I never used Bee as a feat like you_ tried _to.

And your _"insults"_ tickle me :rude


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Based on..?
> 
> Drunk Lee doesn't move like the linear KN0.



Linear movements are easier to read but it was never stated that the movement has to be linear for sharingan to read em.



> The moment Sasuke was knocked down, we get a panel of Suigetsu saying that B's movements are unreadable. The reason that Sasuke couldn't physically deal with them was due to their unpredictability.


Suigetsu doesn't have a sharingan. 

Sasuke never expressed that he couldn't read his movements. He was physically overwhelmed.



> When Sharingan Sasuke was outplayed by B.


Read above.



> It evidently wasn't a matter of speed or strength. Sasuke's Sharingan could read v1 B (who's faster than Base B), and B didn't overpower Sasuke with a direct stab.


Yes, it wasn't speed or strength. It was skill. Just because Sasuke can see his opponents movements, doesn't mean he also has the skill or the capability of dealing with them. If you believe otherwise, that'd make Sasuke omnipotent. 
His kenjutsu is much inferior to B's and B has comparable speed. 



JuicyG said:


> I never used Bee as a feat like you_ tried _to.
> 
> And your _"insults"_ tickle me :rude



At this point, you don't even know the fuck your talking about.
I can't even make fun of you. Its just sad.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> At this point, you don't even know the fuck your talking about.
> I can't even make fun of you. Its just sad.




You mean your beat and you know it. I dispute all your points and you can say nothing more. That sir is called losing a debate. Get used to it, I'll be around for a while


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> Get used to it, I'll be around for a while



No you won't 

I've seen better trolls than you. They don't last long believe me.


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Yes, it wasn't speed or strength. It was skill. Just because Sasuke can see his opponents movements, doesn't mean he also has the skill or the capability of dealing with them. If you believe otherwise, that'd make Sasuke omnipotent.
> His kenjutsu is much inferior to B's and B has comparable speed.



That makes no sense. None. Read what you just wrote.

If Sasuke can read B's movement and thus _know what is about to happen_, how is exactly is "skill" a factor in determining whether or not he can guard?

If Sasuke's knows exactly where B's blade is going to be, and Sasuke possesses the reflexes to evade (which he does) or even block it with his own, then how the fuck is "skill" stopping him from doing _either_ of the aforementioned things?


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> No you won't
> 
> I've seen better trolls than you. They don't last long believe me.



If someone out does you in a debate, they are now a troll ? 

Ok buddy whatever you say


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 7, 2014)

JuicyG said:


> If someone out does you in a debate, they are now a troll ?
> 
> Ok buddy whatever you say



Trolls don't debate, they troll. So I have no idea what you'r talking about.


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## JuicyG (Oct 7, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Trolls don't debate, they troll. So I have no idea what you'r talking about.




From here it sounds like your speaking of yourself....Take a good look in the mirror at home. 

But unless you have any further points for me to dispute I'm done here, call it what you'd like, we all know what it is...I'll check in with your next post


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## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> If Lee suddenly attacked him, Gai's 5/5 reflexes would _easily_ allow him to react and block anything Lee tired to do.


<Implying Gai always has 5/5 hypersonic reactions.
< Implying the setting, situation, and personnel involved had nothing to do with it.



> Tell me, did Gai say he was caught off guard? Or was telling Tsunade that Lee was naturally adept at the Drunken Fist, _which would indicate that he observed Lee actually utilizing the style long enough to judge his proficiency?_


No you are making unwarranted assumptions. 
-Gai explained the situation to Tsunade. The way he phrases his response suggest he was taken off guard (not even counting the fact that it is just common sense that this random event would take him offguard). He claims "When I woke up.... The whole place was in disarray". This implies two things. A.) Gai was knocked unconscious. and B.) Before Gai was knocked unconscious the place was not in a state of disarray. 

Now given what we know about Base Gai's skill, and Lee's skills/feats and what Gai tells us, what is more likely:
Option 1: Lee mistook Sake for water and got drunk. Gai not knowing effects sake has on Lee gets dispatched by his frenzy before he can subdue him, and then wakes up to a broken down restaurant and a sleeping Lee. 

or

Lee starts acting up, Gai challenges him and fights him in base modo only to get beaten, and then wakes up to a destroyed restaurant.

Given my prior argument and the fact that Gai seemed to be confused about the restaurant being destroyed


Also on your point of him observing him and seeing him "master" it doesn't imply the ends you are using it to. Gai simply claimed that Lee goes into a Drunk Frenzy and what's more is he's a "natural drunken fist user", which means his personality and biology are perfectly suited for that fighting style (his predisposition towards martial arts, his low alcohol tolerance and propensity to get aggressive while drunk); which he could have infered from the evidence of him being knocked out even off guard, and a whole restaurant being destroyed.





> _Prove it._


I'm refuting your claim that a battle ready Gai engaged Lee in combat and was knocked unconscious which has yet to meet the burden of proof, and giving you a more realistic scenario as to what happened.





> Considering that Rock Lee's movements while drunk aren't predictable, I'm not seeing the difference.


Are all unpredictable things the same? Are all people who used said methods the same quality wise? No, and No. Drunken Fist fighting style is functionally different from Bee's seven sword style, and Bee is much faster, dexterous, and reflexive than pre skip Lee. Just because both can be described as unpredictable doesn't mean you can equate them as such.




> Kisame couldn't knock Gai out in one punch. 5th Gated Lee couldn't even get past Kid Gaara's sand armor, and now Base Lee's knocking out Gai with a single blow?


Implying that taking a hit from an enemy during combat is in anyway comparable to being surprised hit by an ally. 





> Not seeing a reason that those three Uchiha would amount to anything more than fodder before Kid Itachi, Drunk Lee, Kimimaro, or Base Gai, which are all of the shinobi in question here.


because of powerscaling. Do you think any Chunin short of KN1 Naruto (or Naruto w/ Gambunta summoned), CS2 Sasuke, or Gaara could take out even a special Jounin? Do you think Kiba, Lee, or Shino can take out Genma? 

Just adding sharingan to someone automatically puts them at a higher level than your average Jounin, but they seemed to be particularly skilled ones.





> And why exactly do you think the Taijutsu stat is only composed of form, and not other _body-related_ factors like coordination, dexterity, and the like?


Because it is obvious Adlut Itachi is faster, more dexterous, and skilled with his body than kid Lee which the DB would not confer with.



> Also, show me the dexterity, agility, and reflexive feats of Kid Itachi that put him above Drunk Lee or Kimimaro.


-His Kunai feat is one of dexterity as it took pinpoint precision with fine coordination skills to accomplish the feat. 

-As for reflexes and agility I have nothing to go by but powerscaling and adult ability. Seeing as he was an ANBU captain capable of being entrusted w/ slaughtering the Uchiha clan, and being able to join Akatsuki, I think Jonin level powerscaling for his speed is being generous. 





> Kimimaro legit called him fast, which is something he didn't believe Lee was before he got Drunk.


Didn't Lee get nigh immediately Drunk? Also he was describing his agility, using fast as an adjective to describe his short burst movements which he first began to observe as Lee was dodging his stab attempts while fake sleeping; which is more aline with agility than speed. When Lee got Sober he literally ran circles around Kimmimaro, but when he tried to come into attack Kimmo countered. His advantage was his unpredictability/agility in CqC. That's the whole premise of Drunken Monkey Style which seeks to imitate the loose fluid movements of a drunk person.



> Conclusion: Lee sped up.


Which affected his agility not his outright speed. I think you are confusing the two. For example in Pokemon agility and quick attack are different.


What are you talking about.

Honestly, what are you even talking about.



> B's swords are unreadable because his physical movements are unorthodox, which is exactly the case with any user of the Drunken Fist. It has nothing to do with biology. I mean, B's blades are being swung around by his arms...



Lee can only attack in certain ways with his arms. Sharingan telegraphs such things and gives an pre-cog sight of what's going to happen next. Lee's unpredictability works by attacking from unorthodox stances (such as the typical leaned over cup holding stance popular with the martial art) and being able to bend the body (which is being relaxed) in abnormal ways.

Killer Bee's unpredictability works by him creating multiple fronts of attack. He then with his dexterity, attacks the opponent using trickery (such as throwing his swords in the air to confuse the opponent), and unorthodox y (his constantly bopping movements, his ability to seemingly summersault while attacking with different joints, and his attacks coming from different angles high-mid-and low)

So your committing a false equivocation here because while both can be described as unpredictable there are certain qualities  of Bee's 7 sword dance that make it capable of overriding the sharingan, that Lee's Drunken fist do not share, and you are overlooking those things and simply blanketing both under the guise of unpredictable (and therefore equivocable )


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## Rocky (Oct 7, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> <Implying Gai always has 5/5 hypersonic reactions.
> < Implying the setting, situation, and personnel involved had nothing to do with it.



....Gai _always_ has 5/5 reactions, and I'm still no seeing how the setting changes anything.



> Option 1: Lee mistook Sake for water and got drunk. Gai not knowing effects sake has on Lee gets dispatched by his frenzy before he can subdue him, and then wakes up to a broken down restaurant and a sleeping Lee.



Yes, Lee started going crazy, Gai tired to stop his rampage, and Lee knocked his ass out. 

Drunk Lee was beating down Kimimaro, who shares Gai's tier in Taijutsu. I don't see any inconsistencies with Lee in that state being able to get the better of a hesitant Gai. 



> which he could have infered from the evidence of him being knocked out even off guard, and a whole restaurant being destroyed.



How would Gai infer _anything_ if he was blindsided? 

By "off guard," I take it you mean blindsided, because if Lee attacked him _straight up_, Gai is easily reflexive enough to react to that. Rock Lee cannot speed blitz Gai.



> I'm refuting your claim that a battle ready Gai engaged Lee in combat and was knocked unconscious which has yet to meet the burden of proof, and giving you a more realistic scenario as to what happened.



My claim is that Lee was good enough to knock out Gai, and that is fact.

You're trying to tell me that the sole reason for that was because Gai was off guard, which isn't supported anywhere. The moment Lee began attacking Gai, Gai would have been on guard. 



> Implying that taking a hit from an enemy during combat is in anyway comparable to being surprised hit by an ally.



Guess _Kakashi_ should have needed some down time, huh? 

Durability is not affected by whether or not the guy hitting you is your friend. Base Jiraiya literally took an unexpected, fucking flying kick from Gai (5/5 in strength) to the face and wasn't knocked out. 

Lee isn't putting Gai down with one hit under _ANY_ circumstance *period. *



> because of powerscaling. Do you think any Chunin short of KN1 Naruto (or Naruto w/ Gambunta summoned), CS2 Sasuke, or Gaara could take out even a special Jounin? Do you think Kiba, Lee, or Shino can take out Genma?



Drunk Lee would rape stomp Genma in Taijutsu. Kiba and Shino would get also get rapestomped by Drunk Lee in Taijutsu.



> Because it is obvious Adlut Itachi is faster, more dexterous, and skilled with his body than kid Lee which the DB would not confer with.



Adult Itachi is definitely faster than Drunk Lee, and that's about it.



> -As for reflexes and agility I have nothing to go by but powerscaling and adult ability. Seeing as he was an ANBU captain capable of being entrusted w/ slaughtering the Uchiha clan, and being able to join Akatsuki, I think Jonin level powerscaling for his speed is being generous.



He could still do all of that and be slower than Lee though. I mean, Kimimaro has Jonin level speed...



> Didn't Lee get nigh immediately Drunk? Also he was describing his agility, using fast as an adjective to describe his short burst movements which he first began to observe as Lee was dodging his stab attempts while fake sleeping; which is more aline with agility than speed. When Lee got Sober he literally ran circles around Kimmimaro, but when he tried to come into attack Kimmo countered.



Melee speed ≠ Foot speed.

All I really have to say regarding that point is that both Manny Pacquiao and Hussain Bolt are considered remarkably fast.



> Killer Bee's unpredictability works by him creating multiple fronts of attack. He then with his dexterity, attacks the opponent using trickery (such as throwing his swords in the air to confuse the opponent), and unorthodox y (his constantly bopping movements, his ability to seemingly summersault while attacking with different joints, and his attacks coming from different angles high-mid-and low)



The Sharingan would still telegraph all of these movements, as B must use _muscles_ to put force behind his attacks. 

Lee's maneuvers were unreadable to one of the most adept shinobi at Taijutsu _in the series_, so why are B's movements _so_ much harder to deal with than Lee's? What supports that?


----------



## Dr. White (Oct 7, 2014)

Rocky said:


> ....Gai _always_ has 5/5 reactions, and I'm still no seeing how the setting changes anything.


Like how Oro dodged Sasuke's sneak chidori? Or like How Obito reacted to Itachi's amaterasu? or like how Kakashi was tagged by an eraser? 

Ninja aren't always on their sunday best. To suggest Gai's level of reaction is static every moment of the day especially in non combat social situations, is ridiculous.




> Yes, Lee started going crazy, Gai tired to stop his rampage, and Lee knocked his ass out.


Okay lol, we'll have to agree to disagree.



> Drunk Lee was beating down Kimimaro, who shares Gai's tier in Taijutsu. I don't see any inconsistencies with Lee in that state being able to get the better of a hesitant Gai.


Drunk Lee was tagging Kimmimaro to NO EFFECT. You are relying too much on Databook and not taking into account author portrayal and feats. 




> How would Gai infer _anything_ if he was blindsided?


What do you mean? Do all unconscious people lose their memory of how they were unconscious? 

Did Gai's cognitive ability cease to function after waking up?



> By "off guard," I take it you mean blindsided, because if Lee attacked him _straight up_, Gai is easily reflexive enough to react to that. Rock Lee cannot speed blitz Gai.


He can when Gai is offguard, and not necessarily aware Lee is trying to harm him. 

What you're suggesting is that Drunk Lee fought a battle ready gai and landed a hit on him before Gai could down him which suggest Drunk Lee > Bae Gai. 




> My claim is that Lee was good enough to knock out Gai, and that is fact.


Lee was strong enough to knock him out in the right situation given the right circumstances, yeah.



> You're trying to tell me that the sole reason for that was because Gai was off guard, which isn't supported anywhere. The moment Lee began attacking Gai, Gai would have been on guard.


Because it's clear if you know how to comprehend sentence structure and language what Gai is trying to say. His first words are "When I woke up". he literally start his story there. He goes from Lee drinking Sake to knocked out, and sees the restaurant is down.

Are you telling me a battle with Gai and Drunk Lee wouldn't damage the restaurant? when Gai woke up he notes it was in disarray meaning we Lee knocked him out, it wasn't. Suggesting Lee knocked him out before he got the chance to wreck the place. Which suggest Gai got taken out and then woke up to the effects of the rampage consistent with getting randomly hit by his student, after he mistakenly drinks sake.




> Guess _Kakashi_ should have needed some down time, huh?


This example counters your argument lol. Kakashi was obviously not the least bit threatened by Obito, hence why he doesn't even retaliate, flinch, or move a muscles as Obito is grabbing his collar. Are you suggesting that if Obito was an enemy andengaged him in conversation he could replicate the same feat lol? Are you saying if Obito wasn't an ally, that Kakashi couldn't have used a better defense? Despite taking the hit for Obito later, by an invisible Jonin? come on man.



> Durability is not affected by whether or not the guy hitting you is your friend. Base Jiraiya literally took an unexpected, fucking flying kick from Gai (5/5 in strength) to the face and wasn't knocked out.


Okay so this only strengthen's my point. Jiraiya who relaxed himself after getting rid of the threat of akatsuki, got blitzed by base Gai. Is Bae Gai able t speedblitz Base Jiraiya in a regular combat situation?

Anyway yes it is, because as a sentient being you can make arrangments to lessen the damage by blocking or switching the target of your opponents hit. If Gai and Lee were just sitting down celebrating in a restaurant Gai was in no physical, or mental state to see what transpired coming. Lee in such a close proximity, and unusual drunk movement could have easily caught Guy off guard then proceeded to bust the restaurant. 



> Lee isn't putting Gai down with one hit under _ANY_ circumstance *period. *


That's cool that you think that.




> Drunk Lee would rape stomp Genma in Taijutsu. Kiba and Shino would get also get rapestomped by Drunk Lee in Taijutsu.


But would drunk Lee beat Genma was my question.





> Adult Itachi is definitely faster than Drunk Lee, and that's about it.


Itachi is undoubtedly more dexterous and skillful than Lee.




> He could still do all of that and be slower than Lee though. I mean, Kimimaro has Jonin level speed...


Yeah at best he has Jounin speed. 13 year old Itachi should be faster, given his portrayal vs Oro, Tobi, and Uchiha Jonin.





> All I really have to say regarding that point is that both Manny Pacquiao and Hussain Bolt are considered remarkably fast.


Yeah fast can describe both of them. 





> The Sharingan would still telegraph all of these movements, as B must use _muscles_ to put force behind his attacks.


That isn't the point. The speed and skill at which he is moving his body and sowrds far surpass that of Drunk Lee. His swords give him more range, the ability to attack on multiple fronts, and his spinning-hop style makes his movements much more unorthodox.

dodging seven swords coming from different angle, at different rates from Killer Bee in his stance is much different than blocking Lee's fist and feet.



> Lee's maneuvers were unreadable to one of the most adept shinobi at Taijutsu _in the series_, so why are B's movements _so_ much harder to deal with than Lee's? What supports that?


Because Kimmimaro doesn't have the speed and reactions to keep up IMO. Kimmimaro would never do to MS Sasuke what Bee did to him. The fact that drunk Lee was landing hits isn't so much a good thing for Lee as it is a bad showing for Kimmimaro.


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## Rocky (Oct 8, 2014)

Dr. White said:


> Like how Oro dodged Sasuke's sneak chidori? Or like How Obito reacted to Itachi's amaterasu? or like how Kakashi was tagged by an eraser?
> 
> Ninja aren't always on their sunday best. To suggest Gai's level of reaction is static every moment of the day especially in non combat social situations, is ridiculous.



Looking back through things, you ended up being right about this point.

However, even though Rock Lee may have gotten a free shot in on Gai, there is no possible way it put him down...



> Drunk Lee was tagging Kimmimaro to NO EFFECT. You are relying too much on Databook and not taking into account author portrayal and feats.



That's because he lacked the strength to significantly hurt Kimimaro with the one punch he landed. He would have landed more, but bones got in the way...



> Lee was strong enough to knock him out in the right situation given the right circumstances, yeah.



Oh please, do explain further. Under which circumstances can Lee can knock Gai out with one punch? Because we've seen friendly cheap shots connect before, _to the head_ nonetheless, and the person doing the striking was stronger than Kid Lee, while the person being struck was physically weaker than Base Gai.



> Are you telling me a battle with Gai and Drunk Lee wouldn't damage the restaurant? when Gai woke up he notes it was in disarray meaning we Lee knocked him out, it wasn't. Suggesting Lee knocked him out before he got the chance to wreck the place. Which suggest Gai got taken out and then woke up to the effects of the rampage consistent with getting randomly hit by his student, after he mistakenly drinks sake.



Taijutsu battles aren't particularly destructive, so there is no reason their fight _had_ to ruin the bar. That's a weak argument. There could have been minor damage during their battle, and when Lee downed Gai, he went on to completely trash the place.



> This example counters your argument lol...
> 
> Okay so this only strengthen's my point...



They strengthen your stance that Gai could've been hit unexpectedly, but I already admitted I was wrong there.

They support my stance that Lee could not knock out Gai with one strike though, even if it was to the head.



> Anyway yes it is, because as a sentient being you can make arrangments to lessen the damage by blocking or switching the target of your opponents hit.



I know this. 

However, when Gai kicked Jiraiya in a _vital area_, he wasn't knocked out. Jiraiya did none of this "switching the targeted area" stuff.

Kid Lee has no feasible way of knocking out Gai in one punch.



> But would drunk Lee beat Genma was my question.



That, my friend, is a good question. Considering that _Genma hasn't fucking done anything,_ we don't exactly know the details of his ninjutsu lineup. That said, Genma's physical Databook stats were like straight 3's, so even Sober Lee likely wins a taijutsu match.

I don't know why you're even asking this though, because _unrestricted_ Anbu Itachi would stomp Lee. I'm not contesting that. We were only discussing their close combat though.



> Itachi is undoubtedly more dexterous and skillful than Lee.



No, he is faster. Adult Itachi would down Drunk Lee through his speed. That isn't what we're talking about.

When speed was roughly level, I want you to show me where Itachi was more dexterous, or "skilled" than Drunk Lee hand to hand. Bring me the scans of Itachi consistently matching a taijutsu virtuoso with a 5/5 blow for blow.

Fucking Naruto was competent enough to keep up with Itachi's maneuvers. Itachi isn't the end all be all in taijutsu when he doesn't have a huge speed advantage on his opponent. 



> Yeah at best he has Jounin speed. 13 year old Itachi should be faster, given his portrayal vs Oro, Tobi, and Uchiha Jonin.



What the hell does Itachi's portrayal against high-level opponents have to do with his speed?



> dodging seven swords coming from different angle, at different rates from Killer Bee in his stance is much different than blocking Lee's fist and feet.



Drunk Lee attacks with his fists, feet, elbows, legs, skull....there's not much of a difference. B throwing unpredictable attacks from the sword in his mouth is no different than Lee throwing unorthodox strikes with his head. The only different is the range and lethality of B's movements (because he fights with blades), but that was mitigated by the fact that _Sasuke also had a sword._ 

B is generally more _deadly_ because he can use these abnormal and unreadable maneuvers with swords, but he isn't more _unpredictable_ than Lee, because throwing different strikes from different angles at different rates can be done with both blades _and_ body parts broski.



> Because Kimmimaro doesn't have the speed and reactions to keep up IMO. Kimmimaro would never do to MS Sasuke what Bee did to him. The fact that drunk Lee was landing hits isn't so much a good thing for Lee as it is a bad showing for Kimmimaro.



Kimimaro is not unpredictable enough to beat the Shringan's "precognition." Lee very well may be.  If you take away that sword from Sasuke and put him up against Drunk Lee in a fist fight, he's going to get beat badly.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That makes no sense. None. Read what you just wrote.


I actually have no idea why can't make sense out of something so simple as this.



> If Sasuke can read B's movement and thus _know what is about to happen_, how is exactly is "skill" a factor in determining whether or not he can guard?
> 
> If Sasuke's knows exactly where B's blade is going to be, and Sasuke possesses the reflexes to evade (which he does) or even block it with his own, then how the fuck is "skill" stopping him from doing _either_ of the aforementioned things?



Because B's 7 sword style exceeds Sasuke's physical capability. 

Seeeing and reacting isn't the same thing, as reacting requires acting with your body and it is limited by its capacity.

For Sasuke to be able to consistently block and counter all 7 swords with 1 sword, he needs to be significantly faster than B physically.



JuicyG said:


> From here it sounds like your speaking of yourself....Take a good look in the mirror at home.
> 
> But unless you have any further points for me to dispute I'm done here, call it what you'd like, we all know what it is...I'll check in with your next post




No, I am speaking about you, but I wouldn't expect you to understand this with your limited intelligence. I'll be more clear next time I say something


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## Ghost (Oct 8, 2014)

Itachi should also have exploding bunshin here as Kakashi recognized/realized what was gonna happen in the Itachi vs Jounin fight. 

Kimi stabs a clone and gets his face blown away.


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## Rocky (Oct 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> Because B's 7 sword style exceeds Sasuke's physical capability.



Since when did Base B exceed Sasuke's physical capabilities. 



> Seeeing and reacting isn't the same thing, as reacting requires acting with your body and it is limited by its capacity.



And since when was Sasuke's body incapable of reacting to attacks from Base B when he was dodging v1 A at melee range? 



> For Sasuke to be able to consistently block and counter all 7 swords with 1 sword, he needs to be significantly faster than B physically.



So now we're back to speed, which you already said wasn't the issue. 

Why does Sasuke need to be faster than B to block blows from one or two swords? B isn't swinging all seven at the same time, and B certainly isn't swinging them too quickly for Sasuke to react to.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 8, 2014)

Rocky said:


> Since when did Base B exceed Sasuke's physical capabilities.


When B landed a hit on him, obviously.



> And since when was Sasuke's body incapable of reacting to attacks from Base B when he was dodging v1 A at melee range?


V1 A doesn't have 7 sources of damage. It is easier to side step someone charging @ you than someone who is attacking you from various angles with various weapons. 



> So now we're back to speed, which you already said wasn't the issue.


I think you missed the point. It has more to do with B's style than his speed.
If B was using 1 or 2 swords, then Sasuke'd be able to deal with it. 



> Why does Sasuke need to be faster than B to block blows from one or two swords? B isn't swinging all seven at the same time, and



He doesn't swing them all @ the same time but going by how Kishimoto illustrates him whirling and swirling, he is doing it in a rapid succession. As he whirls, Sasuke can clearly see his path, but seeing his path doesn't help him with the rest of the swords that are placed in various places in his body.

So Sasuke needs to block them one after another and to be able to do that his physical speed should be alot faster than B's. 

If I toss 2 coins in the air, you can probably catch them before they fall. 
If I throw 10 coins in the air with the same speed, you probably can't because your hands won't move fast enough. It doesn't have much  to do with the fact that you can see it or not.



> B certainly isn't swinging them too quickly for Sasuke to react to.


He certainly was, otherwise why would he get hit ?


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## balthosai (Oct 8, 2014)

Kimmi go go go!


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## Rocky (Oct 8, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> When B landed a hit on him, obviously.



That doesn't mean what you think it does. 



> V1 A doesn't have 7 sources of damage. It is easier to side step someone charging @ you than someone who is attacking you from various angles with various weapons.



That would be because attacks that come from multiple angles are _less predictable_ than A's elbow, and thus harder for the Sharingan to read.



> If I toss 2 coins in the air, you can probably catch them before they fall.
> 
> If I throw 10 coins in the air with the same speed, you probably can't because your hands won't move fast enough. It doesn't have much  to do with the fact that you can see it or not.



That analogy would only work if B was swinging all seven swords at Sasuke _simultaneously_, because you are tossing the coins into the air together. If you tossed the coins one after the other, and I could foresee their locations _and move my hand towards those spots before the coins even got there,_ I would catch all ten.



> He certainly was, otherwise why would he get hit ?



B's movements were too unorthodox for the Sharingan to read, so Sasuke _didn't see it coming_ and was tagged. When the Sharingan is effective, Sasuke can avoid juiced up B, but when B's movements are too unpredictable for the Sharingan to predict, Sasuke's stuck with his Base reflexes, and _that_ is what couldn't deal with B's striking speed.


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## Akitō (Oct 8, 2014)

Kimimaro beats him just because Itachi has no way of seriously injuring him. I think Itachi has the edge in taijutsu and overall combat skill, but Kimimaro far outstrips him in raw power. The best things Itachi has here, his basic katon jutsu, won't amount to much when matched against the bone defense.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> That doesn't mean what you think it does.


Unless there is a secret interpretation behind the panels, it certainly does.




> That would be because attacks that come from multiple angles are _less predictable_ than A's elbow, and thus harder for the Sharingan to read.


No. It isn't harder to read but, it is harder to react to. It is similar but different.



> That analogy would only work if B was swinging all seven swords at Sasuke _simultaneously_, because you are tossing the coins into the air together. If you tossed the coins one after the other, and I could foresee their locations _and move my hand towards those spots before the coins even got there,_ I would catch all ten.


I already explained this on my post. B doesn't swing his swords with a delay in between. The way he is illustrated, he is actually, swinging them almost simultaneously, given the positioning of his swords and given he is constantling whirling like a tornado. 
But fine, assume I'll toss those 10 coins with a very small delay in between with pairs of 2. You won't have any trouble seeing t hem, but I doubt your hands are fast enough to catch all of them.

It is a perfect analogy. See, the speed I am throwing the coins is exactly the same. So if you can catch 1 coin from me, then it means my speed isn't a problem for you right ? But If I throw 10, then it multiplies  my effective speed(you can calculate the actual number if you want to get technical). That means you have to perform the X action(catching in this and blocking in Sasuke's case) ten times to be able to deal with it. 




> B's movements were too unorthodox for the Sharingan to read, so Sasuke _didn't see it coming_ and was tagged.


I agree that his movements are too unorthodox. But I disagree that sharingan couldn't read em. There is no evidence regarding that, tbh.



> When the Sharingan is effective, Sasuke can avoid juiced up B, but when B's movements are too unpredictable for the Sharingan to predict, Sasuke's stuck with his Base reflexes, and _that_ is what couldn't deal with B's striking speed.



Eh I give up. The truth is above. Buy it or leave it I don't care lol. If you don't understand something in the 3rd or 4th try, the chances are you won't understand it in the 10th.
We are obviously wasting  time here.


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## Amol (Oct 9, 2014)

Itachi dies .
Practically everything in his arsenal is restricted and Kimimaro is not pushover.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

The spiraling artwork for B does not indicate that he swings all seven swords simultaneously, but nice try.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> The spiraling artwork for B does not indicate that he swings all seven swords simultaneously, but nice try.



It certainly doesn't show he is swings one @ a time either. He is holding 7 swords that are placed in a way that they are like spikes extending form his body, so as he starts whirling, his opponent will have to deal with more than 1 sword @ a time. 

If the notion that Sasuke couldn't read his moves was true, then how  would you explain him blocking B for a certain amount of time until one of the swords slipped past his defenses ? 

Logical explanation is that Sasuke was simply overhwhelmed by the sheer number of attacks.


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## Rocky (Oct 9, 2014)

Grimmjowsensei said:


> If the notion that Sasuke couldn't read his moves was true, then how  would you explain him blocking B for a certain amount of time until one of the swords slipped past his defenses ?



What do you mean? Kimimaro couldn't read/predict Lee's movements, but he was able to keep up for a while until he was tagged.

I don't see how B's "spinning" was the problem for Sasuke anyway, because the Sauce was actually able to guard against that. B ended up _tagging_ him with a regular thrust.



> He is holding 7 swords that are placed in a way that they are like spikes extending form his body, so as he starts whirling



Tbh, I don't think that's how B actually fights. I've always pictured it like the anime:



That isn't just spinning with swords extended. Just like I don't think Madara was actually spinning in circles while beating up the fodder.


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## Dr. White (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> > That's because he lacked the strength to significantly hurt Kimimaro with the one punch he landed. He would have landed more, but bones got in the way...
> 
> 
> He lacked the strength to hurt Kimmo and after a while, couldn't even tag him.
> ...


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## Grimmjowsensei (Oct 9, 2014)

Rocky said:


> What do you mean? Kimimaro couldn't read/predict Lee's movements, but he was able to keep up for a while until he was tagged.


Then maybe "not being able to read/predict" isn't as literal as you make it out to be. I don't think either of them would be able to react to attacks that they couldn't see or predict. 

A better example is when Naruto's chakra cloak striked Sasuke and he got hit immediately because he couldn't even see it coming. Thats the literal meaning for not being able to predict.

I also don't see how Lee & B's attack pattern is any similar at all, it is impossible to draw a parallel based on those.



> I don't see how B's "spinning" was the problem for Sasuke anyway, because the Sauce was actually able to guard against that. B ended up _tagging_ him with a regular thrust.


He did that at the end of the spin when Sasuke was pushed back from the previous blow and was wide open. 

Also how is a regular thrust not a predictable attack anyway ? It is pretty linear. That example greatly forces my argument instead of yours. 



> Tbh, I don't think that's how B actually fights. I've always pictured it like the anime:
> 
> 
> 
> That isn't just spinning with swords extended. Just like I don't think Madara was actually spinning in circles while beating up the fodder.



Actually that is how I picture he fights as well, that is a pretty good representation. You can clearly see the sparks that pop everytime sasuke blocks a hit and there are way too many sparks coming out simultaneously. 

The thing with B's attack pattern is, it is flowing constantly. He keeps whirling around simultaneously which leaves no breathing room, no chance  to counter attack.
Thats why it is hard to defend against, I'd say it is almost impossible to defend against with a single sword, unless the speed gap is immense to the extend that you can perform 7 actions in a timeframe where he can perform only 1. Or if you have an identical fighting style.


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## Atlantic Storm (Oct 9, 2014)

I've been a little bit slack recently due to school starting up again, so I missed this. 'ANBU Itachi' doesn't really have any feats, so there isn't enough material to base a substantial argument on.


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