# Baka-Updates Lolicon/Shotacon debates



## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

> I'm sure everyone has heard about the debate raging in the wild about Lolicon and Shotacon titles recently. If not, there is some good information here  and here  to bring yourselves up to speed. We still don't know why we were targeted, or why we were banned from Adsense, but we're now operating under the assumption that it is related to the Lolicon/Shotacon controversy. There's nothing we can do about this, and we ask everyone not to blame Google. They are a business, and they have to look out for their interests first and foremost.
> 
> How exactly do I feel about this situation? The best word to sum it up would be 'conflicted'. I'm no fan of Lolicon or Shotacon. I don't think they serve any ultimate benefit to anyone whatsoever. However, I also do not believe that anyone has any business outlawing a simple drawing on a piece of paper. I cannot comprehend what possible crime anyone is committing simply by the act of perception--by looking at a fictional representation. It seems no less poignant to me than the debate about South Park's "201". Regardless, this discussion transcends myself. What remains is how we deal with reality.
> 
> ...



How do you guys feel about this, is it right to censor a form of art depicting underage children in a sexual manner? Should it be kept legal, banned, post your opinion via comments below.


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## Yōkai (May 1, 2010)

Im getting more and more sick of this fascist society

If they force Japan to ban lolicon, im gonna go on killing spree, i tell you


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## Champagne Supernova (May 1, 2010)

aww poor pedophiles


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## Yakushi Kabuto (May 1, 2010)

Lolicon/shotacon is one of those things I find to be vaguely creepy, but I don't see any reason to ban it either. Besides, there's a lot of gray area when it comes to fiction. Anywhere from underaged characters looking much older and older characters looking like elementary school kids. I don't see the benefit in setting hard limits against something that could be so broad. 

And then there are things like Mina from Vampire Bund. I think that series is quite good even with the parts that make me feel a little weird. It is well written and actually has a good reason for why she looks that way despite being ancient.


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## MdB (May 1, 2010)

Should I attempt to give a damn? Lolicons chiefly cater towards greasy fat Otaku, so I don't care on bit about the matter, even when it could be considered as censorship.



Champagne Supernova said:


> aww poor pedophiles



So basically this.


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## Yōkai (May 1, 2010)

Stereotyping all lolicons as pedophiles is very typical of the bigot, pathetically limited minds that are so abundant in western societies. Do you know how many girls are into lolicon? some of them in their teens.


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## Champagne Supernova (May 1, 2010)

Yōkai said:


> Stereotyping all lolicons as pedophiles is very typical of the bigot, pathetically limited minds that are so abundant in western societies. Do you know how many girls are into lolicon? some of them in their teens.





Female otaku

At least i think it's a female


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## Mist Puppet (May 1, 2010)

I don't see why it should be banned. Some are actually adults depicted as children (like in the latest Deadman Wonderland chapter, the twins are actually 30) for whatever reason. It might be creepy for some, but it doesn't harm anybody. Don't like it, don't read it, herp derp.

What next, are we going to ban homosexuality in manga?


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

I don't read it and I would never endorse it and or recommend it to others however, people should have the right to view the material they want as long as it isn't hurting anyone in the process.

It's more along the lines of "I wouldn't do it, but I'll protect someones right to do it".


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## Yōkai (May 1, 2010)

Im sick of narrowly or intolerantly people devoted to their opinions and prejudices. racists, anti-Semites, misogynists, homophobes,  xenophobes, religious fundamentalits, rightwing puritans, you're all made of the same substance, one which stinks 

and i'll always prefer to deal with the "excess" of freedom, than with the lack of it



Champagne Supernova said:


> Female otaku
> 
> At least i think it's a female


Hey! i can play that game too, you know, reduce anything to some stupid and preconceived stereotype 

male Otaku =



wassup champagne! how have you been? =D


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

That's what happens when you develop a culture of victimization, after jews, blacks and women now pedophiles think they can whine about being oppressed because their shithouse comic books are getting banned while they should thank Heavens they haven't been neutered with rusty garden clippers yet


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

Another reason I'm torn up about this issue is that though this doesn't effect me in the least it's still a sign of censoring a particular artform. Its like if a group came together to ban violence in media or homosexual relationships in literature in fear that it "may" corrupt the youth.

Even though I'm not into the material in question i can sort of sympathize because I'm a big fan of Yuri manga. Lets say of women came together and said "Oh homosexual depictions of women is just plain wrong and should be banned outright". Id be somewhat torn up about it because I endorse that genre, the story itself isn't hurting anyone. So I'm still in the gray about this =/


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## Aokiji (May 1, 2010)

Aldric said:


> That's what happens when you develop a culture of victimization, *after jews, blacks and women* now pedophiles think they can whine about being oppressed because their shithouse comic books are getting banned while they should thank Heavens they haven't been neutered with rusty garden clippers yet



You forgot homosexuals.


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## Lord Genome (May 1, 2010)

pedos cant get their fix i dont see a problem here

actually wait they might express it in the real world then

could become bad


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

> You forgot homosexuals



Yeah

And obese people and the two seats they have to pay for in airplanes

Now that I think about it I should maybe whine about ugly people being discriminated in certain professions

Why can't I be a male model just because I'm ugly this is unacceptable I want to snort coke and be paid to wear ridiculously fruity attires too


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## Gain (May 1, 2010)

never saw how providing pedos more material to fap over makes them _less_ dangerous to the public


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## Lord Genome (May 1, 2010)

good point gain


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## Gain (May 1, 2010)

for me it's like feeding a fire

but whatever i doubt lolicon and shouta will go extinct because of some written law


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> What next, are we going to ban homosexuality in manga?



Too late, Im pretty sure Google asked Mangafox to take off Yuri/Yaoi mangas which I find surprising and homophobic. Seems like they're coming after our mangas, what's next no violence? No tits? No weapons? Fucking facists.

There is absolutely no reason to ban adults from viewing images of fictional characters, no matter what the hell is going on in them, simple.


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

Excellent point Gain what a great argument wow


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## Gain (May 1, 2010)

gosh u guys i'm not very good at this i said somethin stupid sorry


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

Don't be modest Gain

Does someone want to counter Gain's excellent points come on guys we have a debate going on here don't give out on me



Ennoea said:


> Too late, Im pretty sure Google asked Mangafox to take off Yuri/Yaoi mangas which I find surprising and homophobic. Seems like they're coming after our mangas, what's next no violence? No tits? No weapons? Fucking facists.



Better be a fascist than a fucking pedo


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## Akatora (May 1, 2010)

It seem wrong to ban stuff but loli and shota ain't my stuff either

the problem appear when you need to define a line of when is it to far?


I don't like the thought of a line like that which could result in series getting banned without being a shota or loli series.


Also how do they define it?

What about series where for instance there's a flat chested grown up? or a school girl that you don't know if is middle, high or university with big boobs?


I remember a series such as sumomomo that i just felt was plain wrong
Having a girl some 12-13 years old going over to a guy and asking him to start making kids with her or some shit like that

(THe guy's reaction is understandable as he get freaked out by it)


Also what about series with fanservice as comedy such as To-Love-Ru?

The majority of the girls in that series is 16-17 I wouldn't place that as loli but there are some of the characters that possibly could be and should a series risk getting banned due to that?


THe big issue here is where to place the line, it's going to be ugly, stupid and near impossible as everyone would place there own line and what makes 1 person opinion supperior to anothers?

Will be good to have less of the young ones and get more fanservice in the right age/look but again where do you place the line?


If a guy is 2,4 meter and his gf some 1,4 meters and an artist try to draw something like that how would that result?


And from this how far till we won't be allowed violence in manga?

and when will certain shapes be banned?

will we end with a restriction to size of characters?

will we Have certain art forms banned?


*The overall idea is fair, but again I don't like what this could lead to*


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## MdB (May 1, 2010)

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS528dPqWm4[/YOUTUBE]

MOE~


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> Better be a fascist than a fucking pedo



Who's a pedo? I don't read loli mangas myself. If you really think its as simple as everyone who reads this stuff is a "pedo" then good for you but you're incredibly ignorant. In anycase Im more worried about censorship than anything else.


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

Great points everyone


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## Mist Puppet (May 1, 2010)

MdB said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS528dPqWm4[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> MOE~



I remember that manga.

Man, it was really weird at times


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## Ice Cream (May 1, 2010)

MdB said:


> [YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kS528dPqWm4[/YOUTUBE]
> 
> MOE~



?! O.O

lol, little girls with a teacher anime? >.>      

odd...



> Who's a pedo? I don't read loli mangas myself. If you really think its as simple as everyone who reads this stuff is a "pedo" then good for you but you're incredibly ignorant. In anycase Im more worried about censorship than anything else.



Same here. If one can censor artwork for loli/shota, it just seems
to grant justification for further censorship's in the future.


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## Akatora (May 1, 2010)

Gain said:


> some of them involve minors
> 
> most of the yuri ones that i came across do at least




Then we are at the question minors according to which countrys law?

less than 24? 21? 18? 17? 16? 15? 14? or the really sick ones of pre teenage?


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## MdB (May 1, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> I remember that manga.
> 
> Man, it was really weird at times



It's downright pedo garbage.


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## ~Greed~ (May 1, 2010)

Gain said:


> some of them involve minors
> 
> most of the yuri ones that i came across do at least



well if they were like 16-17 then I don't think its that big of a deal.

But if they were like 10 then I can understand.

However, they removed manga like vagabond as well from what i heard.


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

I love how he used the term "minors" as if to insinuate something seedy. 



> But if they were like 10 then I can understand.



Then it comes under the loli/shota category.


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## MaikeruTanoshii (May 1, 2010)

Oh boy... new to the forum.. not sure I want to get sucked in to this but...

I would say that I have no problem, _in theory_, with banning deceptions of minors in grossly sexual situations.. the problem with that argument is it breaks down with things like Vampire Bund.. what to do, what to do?  

I say leave it be, a pedo will trip up eventually and get his ass caught, with or without such manga.  I refuse to believe a comic could make someone "go pedo", therefore as it's not a causative factor, and is victimless it should be kept legal.

Though I wouldn't mind seeing it go a bit more underground myself >.>


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

Am I supposed to care about pedos losing fap material?


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## ~Greed~ (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> Then it comes under the loli/shota category.



I know, I said I can understand why some people would want to ban that. But even if the characters were 10 ,its still censorship of drawings, which I don't agree with.


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## Mist Puppet (May 1, 2010)

MdB said:


> It's downright pedo garbage.



Yeah, it's called a difference in culture. Which was why it garnered so much controversy when the mangaka was planning a US release.

And how would it be pedophilia? It's the girl that comes on to the teacher, not the other way around.


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> I say leave it be, a pedo will trip up eventually and get his ass caught, with or without such manga.



Just because you like Loli doesn't make you in to a paedophile, people aren't as simple as that. People are able enjoy a range of genres even if one genre seems quite disturbing to someone else. Its like in film, some people enjoy incredible gory films, but what does it mean? Society tells us to feel ashamed for liking something thats not part of the norm so much to think that its just wrong, but its not always the case. I can see the issue with Loli/shota, but I'm against censorship. The man who made a complaint even admitted to enjoying Kodomo no Jikan ffs.

Its adult fiction, simple as that.


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## MdB (May 1, 2010)

The obsessive interests of Otaku isn't exactly a culture.


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## Mist Puppet (May 1, 2010)

MdB said:


> The obsessive interests of Otaku isn't exactly a culture.



So now people who like that genre are solely otaku?

Nice generalization you got there.


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## Crimson Dragoon (May 1, 2010)

MdB said:


> The obsessive interests of Otaku isn't exactly a culture.


it's more like a stain of humanity


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## Arishem (May 1, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> Yeah, it's called a difference in culture. Which was why it garnered so much controversy when the mangaka was planning a US release.
> 
> And how would it be pedophilia? It's the girl that comes on to the teacher, not the other way around.



I agree entirely. Rape in Africa is just a misunderstood cultural practice, and we in the West need to stop being such self-righteous dicks and let them do what they want. People just need to mind their own fucking business.


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## Mist Puppet (May 1, 2010)

Arishem said:


> I agree entirely. Rape in Africa is just a misunderstood cultural practice, and we in the West need to stop being such self-righteous dicks and let them do what they want. People just need to mind their own fucking business.



 @ comparing rape to drawings of lolis and shotas.

Yeah, I kind of figured this would degenerate into a shitstorm. I think I'll back out before I get too involved.

Next thread: Manga sites aiming to remove manga with blood.


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

Rape in Africa is really relevant here isn't it?



> Next thread: Manga sites aiming to remove manga with blood.



Next step will be the censorship of nudity in manga, and then all the bitches will whine.


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## Arishem (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> Rape in Africa is really relevant here isn't it?



Humanity comes from Africa so everything that happens there applies to the species as a whole.


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## MdB (May 1, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> So now people who like that genre are solely otaku?
> 
> Nice generalization you got there.



Mind want to tell me how pedophilic undertones can be categorized as a genre, much less a part of civilization at large.


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> Humanity comes from Africa so everything that happens there applies to the species as a whole.



Why not discuss Malaria and Aids too while you're at it then? Or maybe a post thats on topic would be more useful.


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## Oxymoron (May 1, 2010)

As most here I could care less about lolicon or shotacon or whatever it is called, however this opens the door for future censorship which could expand to our favorite mangas.


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## Arishem (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> Why not discuss Malaria and Aids too while you're at it then?



Those topics are too depressing and would ruin the mood of the conversation.


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## neodragzero (May 1, 2010)

Oxymoron said:


> As most here I could care less about lolicon or shotacon or whatever it is called, however this opens the door for future censorship which could expand to our favorite mangas.


Not really. Vagabond for instance has numerous things that make it quite universal. Shotacon on the other hand...nowhere near as much. There isn't an international outcry about numerous stuff in manga that exists in numerous other media throughout the world as far as content goes.


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

After I read  I found an entirely different perception for Pedophilia and actually sympathized with the male characters plight.



> "Do I engage in a sexual relationship with a person who's only 14 and even more taboo my own sister"



It sounds downright abominable at first glance, but after the read I wasn't sure anymore. The series actually transcended itself and became something wonderfully unique and beautiful.


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> Rape in Africa is really relevant here isn't it?



What it is only "a difference in culture". Much like women being stoned to death in the Middle East for being adulterers or honor killings. We should just turn a blind eye to that as well because obviously it is only a difference in culture and we should just learn to be tolerant of their women stoning ways.


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## Nightwish (May 1, 2010)

Don't really read lolicon or shotacon, excluding Dance in the Vampire Bund ofcourse.

But, I do fear that they could be aiming to eliminate all things mature, like blood, gore, and all that jazz.

Pretty  much toning down anything violent really; it wouldn't surprise me


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

Would  be considered Lolicon/pedophilia? 

Admittingly, I kinda like that series


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> We should just turn a blind eye to that as well because obviously it is only a difference in culture and we should just learn to be tolerant of their women stoning ways



Oh look fathers beat their kids in mangas too, we can't turn a blind eye to this, Bleach must be taken off too. Congrats with comparing the plight of women in Middle East and comparing it to Loli mangas. Btw stoning women doesn't equate to difference of culture, you obviously don't know what you're talking about so stop before you embarass yourself further. Why not bring Holocaust in to this aswell, that'll divert and sensationalize the topic further.


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## The Imp (May 1, 2010)

I didn't expect much out of this thread, but god damn this is terrible.


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> Btw stoning women doesn't equate to difference of culture, you obviously don't know what you're talking about so stop before you embarass yourself further. Why not bring Holocaust in to this aswell, that'll divert and sensationalize the topic further.



Uh yeah it does. That is their cultures way of punishing adultery so it's obvious you are the one that is just talking out of their ass. First of all i'm am against most censorship. I'm just saying you can't use the bullshit excuse of cultural difference to justify lolicon.

And how the fuck would the Holocaust relate to anything I was saying at all?


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## Aldric (May 1, 2010)

Ralphy♥ said:


> After I read  I found an entirely different perception for Pedophilia and actually sympathized with the male characters plight.
> 
> 
> 
> It sounds downright abominable at first glance, but after the read I wasn't sure anymore. The series actually transcended itself and became something wonderfully unique and beautiful.



Your face is downright abominable


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

werd to big bird


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> That is their cultures way of punishing adultery so it's obvious you are the one that is just talking out of their ass.



You're confusing religious ideology with culture. But lets go back to discussing the topic at hand.


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## Lord Genome (May 1, 2010)

Man remember when threads were good


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> Man remember when threads were good



When did this imaginary time exist?

Forget it, narrow minded people always will stick to their assumptions no matter what.


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

Ennoea said:


> You're confusing religious ideology with culture. But lets go back to discussing the topic at hand.



Guess what their religious ideology is part of their culture.

But yeah i'm done derailing this thread.


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## Ralphy♥ (May 1, 2010)

I get what your saying Ennoea, the fact that someone out theirs trying to suppress/censor a form of art is the real travesty here.

In the end even Lolicon/Shouta is an expressive artistic form


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## Ennoea (May 1, 2010)

> Guess what their religious ideology is part of their culture.



If you think stoning is some inherent part of Iranian culture then you're wrong, its part of Shariah law and the islamic penal code that came under affect after 1983. In fact many in Iran are against this type of punishment but the Iranian government have other ideas. 

Sorry I just had to reply, back to the pedo debate.


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## Xnr (May 1, 2010)

That's what happens when you leave the 'biggest' democracy in the world to make rules for you . 

Really Americans with their obsession that they have to set the world straight makes me puke. And that's why they're so despised. I would like to see them give the stick to China. I'm sure they'll care. NOT.

If you haven't understood by now, I am against this BS. Not because I've ever read or will read stuff like that, but it does no harm anyone. And making stupid assumption on 'If he reads, he might try it' is the same as 'If Americans invade Iraq, WW3 might break out.' Oh wait. They didn't care about that and just did it. So why not leave the stuff and concentrate on their 'sophisticated' society.

*EDIT:* To the person responding to my rant - it's inevitable as that's where the ban originated. It's the cause of the whole thing. What do you want me to ignore and pretend the whole world is made of the US?

*EDIT2*:  
Care to explain why or you just think you have a superior opinion and no points to argue?


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## Abigail (May 1, 2010)

Mist Puppet said:


> Yeah, it's called a *difference in culture.* Which was why it garnered so much controversy when the mangaka was planning a US release.
> 
> And how would it be pedophilia? It's the girl that comes on to the teacher, not the other way around.


Terrible point.



Arishem said:


> I agree entirely. *Rape in Africa is just a misunderstood cultural practice*, and we in the West need to stop being such self-righteous dicks and let them do what they want. People just need to mind their own fucking business.


Thrown back into face.


Mist Puppet said:


> @ comparing rape to drawings of lolis and shotas.
> 
> Yeah, I kind of figured this would degenerate into a shitstorm. I think I'll back out before I get too involved.
> 
> Next thread: Manga sites aiming to remove manga with blood.


Dodging the point like a champ.

Cultural difference will not somehow magically make having drawings of adults fucking kids somehow become accepted and normal.

If by some miracle it does, then, as was mentioned, rape and stoning women to death becomes accepted and normal as well, as they're just "cultural differences".

*Edit:*


LooneR said:


> That's what happens when you leave the 'biggest' democracy in the world to make rules for you .
> 
> Really Americans with their obsession that they have to set the world straight makes me puke. And that's why they're so despised. I would like to see them give the stick to China. I'm sure they'll care. NOT.
> 
> If you haven't understood by now, I am against this BS. Not because I've ever read or will read stuff like that, but does not harm anyone. And making stupid assumption on 'If he reads, he might try it' is the same as 'If Americans invade Iraq, WW3 might break out.' Oh wait. They didn't care about that and just did it. So why not leave the stuff and concentrate on their 'sophisticated' society.


And, of course, no terrible thread is complete with the obligatory anti-American rant.


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

LooneR said:


> Really Americans with their obsession that they have to set the world straight makes me puke. And that's why they're so despised. I would like to see them give the stick to China. I'm sure they'll care. NOT.



Because obviously the best thing to do is cover your ears and go "lalala" while terrible things happen in the world.

The US isn't seeking to ban lolicon or shotacon. Ever heard of Ashcroft vs ACLU?


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## Xnr (May 1, 2010)

^^^

Are you trying to argue that the US is some organisation ruled by saints who just try to free the oppressed. Surely you're joking. And I haven't heard about some random case because I don't care about it.  

I am referring to the US because Google is, more than anything, a big US corporation. If that does not bring things into context, I don't know what does.

I suppose there's no way I can win an argument when you stay put at home, your army bombs people as they see fit and the media reports it as 'justice' . I think I will see how this shitstorm develops and try not to lose any more brain cells .


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## Platinum (May 1, 2010)

LooneR said:


> ^^^
> 
> Are you trying to argue that the US is some organisation ruled by saints who just try to free the oppressed. Surely you're joking. And I haven't heard about some random case because I don't care about it.



Don't put words in my mouth. No country is perfect.



> I am referring to the US because Google is, more than anything, a big US corporation. If that does not bring things into context, I don't know what does.



Let me guess "Corporations are teh evilz".



> I suppose there's no way I can win an argument when you stay put at home, your army bombs people as they see fit and the media reports it as 'justice' .



Do you ever get lonely up there on your pedestal? Yes because we all know that the US army is an indiscriminate malicious murdering machine that slaughters for the lulz and that the media never opposes anything they do ever.



> I think I will see how this shitstorm develops and try not to lose any more brain cells .



Can't lose what you don't have in the first place.


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## Clay Man Gumby (May 2, 2010)

How come I only see about 4 or 5 people defending the shota/lolicon front, I know there are more than this.


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## DarkLordOfKichiku (May 2, 2010)

I can't say I see much point in censoring here. I mean, it isn't PORN we're talking about after all. At most we're talkign about suggestive themes, amybe a flat chest or two shown and so forth... So I don't much see what's the point.

Besides, it's fiction - stuff that is not real as such, so why the hell bother?


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## HugeGuy (May 2, 2010)

ITT, we have one side trying to over-glorify a controversial fetish and the other side using a blender to over-simplify things.

And I'm left with a hard time to see the real focus of this thread with all these talks about AIDS, Jews, rape, stoning and holocaust.


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## MaikeruTanoshii (May 2, 2010)

What are you talking about again?

Underage, gay, jewish anti-american nazis?


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## Ennoea (May 2, 2010)

Don't forget aids, rape, Africa and Iran's lack of Women rights.


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## Amatsu (May 2, 2010)

Honestly I think debating about the censorship of a drawing is about as stupid as censoring the drawing itself.

But since I don't read lolicon/shotacon in general. I honestly don't care what they do to it. I'm personally not missing out on anything either way.


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## Drew8898 (May 2, 2010)

Lord Genome said:


> pedos cant get their fix i dont see a problem here
> 
> actually wait they might express it in the real world then
> 
> could become bad



That's actually a somewhat valid point, though I assume you were making a joke.

I assume that the outrage against lolicon and shotacon is based on the fear that people who enjoy that form of [creepy] art use it as a stepping stone towards acting on actual real life pedophilia.

A question that's been on my mind is this: Has there been any actual study that proves this fear, or are pedophiles that get their fix by viewing loli/shota content less likely to act upon their urges in real life?

Smoking causes cancer, but people that want to quit still get their nicotine fix from a patch to reduce their urges.


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## Gnome (May 2, 2010)

Ralphy♥ said:


> In the end even Lolicon/Shouta is an expressive artistic form



I've never read loli/shouta, but how bad is it in terms of sexuality? 

Because i know that in America, Obscenity is not a covered form of expression even when in the form of art (The hard part is defining Obscenity).

if these manga sites are under U.S law then i honestly see nothing wrong with this because i don't agree with Obscenity; at least not publicly, and since this is the internet it's sort of hard to place it, as the internet is free to view for the public but is done so mostly in a private manner.


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## Champagne Supernova (May 2, 2010)

Poor pedophiles being discriminated

Just like the uchihas


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## DarkLordOfKichiku (May 2, 2010)

Drew8898 said:


> I assume that the outrage against lolicon and shotacon is based on the fear that people who enjoy that form of [creepy] art use it as a stepping stone towards acting on actual real life pedophilia.



I think the fear people express there is reasonable, but AFAIK there's as little proof that it's actually done - just like there's little actual proof that violent video games cause people to want to go out and shoot people ...


----------



## IDGabrielHM (May 2, 2010)

If lolicon were ever destroyed, it would mean series like Kodomo no Jikan could not exist.


I consider that a crime against humanity.  As absurdly many "pointless" hentai exist out there with loli characters, so too do many worthwhile and intellectually compelling works exist on paper and in the ether yet to be penned which would be legitimately diminished without their loli characters.  It's important not to censor art, not because of freedom of speech but because of something far more rudimentary; the maturation of human ideas.

And furthermore, there's an amazing Evangelion fan-doujin called Re-Take out there which uses its few hentai elements to further the psychological impact of the work, and if underaged character nudity in cartoon form were banned that work would not exist.  That alone is enough to make me want to rip off someone's head.  Had I known that this doujin could have been made and wasn't, and that I could never thoroughly enjoy its wonderful contents, I would be so upset.  People aught to be so upset, because it would have been banished from existence for the sake of protecting something that was never real.  Balderdash.

Guro porn exists too.  I've seen it, I've sought it.  No one would be taken seriously if they tried to say seeing guro would make me want to or go out and murder someone on the streets for sexual gratification.  It's like the old video game arguments; drawing a fake gun, shooting a fake gun, acting out with a fake gun, will not make me obtain a real gun in real life and take another life away.  Won't even make me more violent.  Doesn't attract those who are predisposed to being violent as opposed to those who aren't.  Doesn't sensitize or desensitize a player to violence.

Art is art, quit parsing between art and art.  You take a bit you lose a bit, so don't take away shit that harms No One.


That's my opinion on the matter and God Damn It it's the right one.


----------



## Platinum (May 2, 2010)

Gnome on Fire said:


> I've never read loli/shouta, but how bad is it in terms of sexuality?
> 
> Because i know that in America, Obscenity is not a covered form of expression even when in the form of art (The hard part is defining Obscenity).
> 
> if these manga sites are under U.S law then i honestly see nothing wrong with this because i don't agree with Obscenity; at least not publicly, and since this is the internet it's sort of hard to place it, as the internet is free to view for the public but is done so mostly in a private manner.



That's why I mentioned Ashcroft vs ACLU. These forms of manga are constitutionally protected according to the supreme court.



Champagne Supernova said:


> Poor pedophiles being discriminated
> 
> Just like the uchihas


----------



## Frostman (May 2, 2010)

*@Drew8898* Japan, would be a good place to run such an experiment since that where the loli/shota genre came from. Its pretty big over there too. It might be the reason for the whole moe boom. But from what ive herd, the problem isn't guys preying on little girls, but rather the guys are actually loosing interest in "3d girls" all together. By 3d girls i mean real woman. But thats just a running joke ive herd in Otaku manga. I don't how seriously i should actually take it.
-

I was looking through BU and most of the loli/shota manga are also hentai. I don't read those very often. Hentai doesn't do much for me period. I only read hentai for the WTF factor and im pretty indiscriminate, even if it has loli/shota in it. They're all drawings to me.

As for regular manga, i do enjoy loli or shota characters in there for its moe factor. A nude scene, a panty shot, those things are harmless. Most of it is geared toward young boys anyway. But there are exceptions like Kodomo no Jinkan who cross a taboo without going all the way. Kodomo no Jinkan may get a bit disturbing from time to time, but unlike hentai, its a really good manga with a plot.

Anyway i don't really care much for the entire hentai section in BU. I can find that stuff easy without their help. But i still don't want to see it go in fear that good stuff like Kodomo no Jinkan will be grouped in with it.


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## Amatsu (May 2, 2010)

Well no wonder the sharingan makes you blind.

All Uchiha's are pedophiles.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2010)

LooneR said:


> ^^^
> 
> Are you trying to argue that the US is some organisation ruled by saints who just try to free the oppressed. Surely you're joking. And I haven't heard about some random case because I don't care about it.



Sweet Cream on an ice cream sandwitch this is one hell of a pointless rant

to add to this...Japan itself politically has become more and more conservative and I'm pretty sure if lolicon dies..it wont be because of google..it'll be because the country of origin deems it deplorable and bans it



LooneR said:


> I am referring to the US because Google is, more than anything, a big US corporation. If that does not bring things into context, I don't know what does.



you know considering goggle has some fat deals in China...and in Europe and makes a boat load..and has investors all over the world

I wouldn't be surprised if only one or two "gringos" where involved in this thing..and a few others from other parts of the world



LooneR said:


> I suppose there's no way I can win an argument when you stay put at home, your army bombs people as they see fit and the media reports it as 'justice' . I think I will see how this shitstorm develops and try not to lose any more brain cells .



and you've essentially stopped posting anything remotely relevant to this thread and have launched off into a totally idiotic "America sucks" rant

I don't even get the issue here..I'm all for stopping unneeded censorship...but going from blocking the viewing of...rather odd..and rather vile content that most countries have some form of law prohibiting any ways

to "OMG DEYZ GONNA CHRISTIANIZE MANGA GAIZ " is a bit...extreme..don't you think?


Artistc freedom is protected in the US any ways what isn't protected are images sexualize    minors or pretty much anything involving people under a certain age in anything compromising..and in some states/countries even fake or animated images

any ways there is nothing wrong with what was done this stuff is pretty creepy...and I can't fathom why it'd be read

if it falls under art..google will be forced by "evil american nazi police" to put the shit back up if it falls under Illicit content then its gonna be met with penalties

either way for the fans of this stuff..realistically since when has a ban on material done anything other then increase the amount thats been released...even if it has to be procured under ground so to speak

prohibition any one? I doubt this will truly make a lasting dent nothing with ever works with this kind of crap any ways


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## Champagne Supernova (May 2, 2010)

Amatsu said:


> Well no wonder the sharingan makes you blind.
> 
> All Uchiha's are pedophiles.



And into i*c*st


----------



## Amatsu (May 2, 2010)

Champagne Supernova said:


> And into i*c*st



Who knew Kishimoto was capable of such brilliant symbolism?


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2010)

Champagne Supernova said:


> And into i*c*st



seems like all clans with a kekkai genkai would have to be massively inbread come to think of it


----------



## IDGabrielHM (May 2, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> any ways there is nothing wrong with what was done this stuff is pretty creepy...and I can't fathom why it'd be read
> 
> if it falls under art..google will be forced by "evil american nazi police" to put the shit back up if it falls under Illicit content then its gonna be met with penalties
> 
> ...


This is just complete horse shit.

"Why are you complaining about censorship?  After it's all banned you can just keep on finding and viewing the materials while risking extensive monetary fines and/or incarceration, so what's the big deal?"

It doesn't matter if its still possible to get at it through the underground, because it should never have been Forced underground to begin with.  If you're getting it through the black market than anyone who pokes their head above the surface can still instantly be whack-a-mole'd into the justice system and stripped of their own rights in reprisal for doing something that should never have been labeled as a crime to begin with.

Prohibition did end; that's not a justification of it that's saying it was a larger than life mistake in the first place, and many people lost their businesses or their lives because of the legal prohibition on alcohol and the underworld response to the ban.



The inevitability of the defeat of measures that censor without just cause is not a justification of the censorship existing.  Who cares that it's transient?  It may be temporary but in that time period people will be wronged, and when all is said and done and the measure is defeated I strongly doubt that sufficient compensations will be provided to those who were wronged; history teaches us that too.

You're dressing up "shit out of luck" as though we were being presented bars of gold.  No dice.

You may not be able to fathom why this stuff would be read, but I can't fathom what makes football interesting.  And football is dangerous and violent and a war allegory.  I don't think they should ban football just because I don't personally understand or join in with its fandom.
The question isn't does it match your personal tastes, the question is does it cause harm or take away anyone else's freedom?  "Creepy" isn't a good enough excuse.  It just ain't.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2010)

IDGabrielHM said:


> "Why are you complaining about censorship?  After it's all banned you can just keep on finding and viewing the materials while risking extensive monetary fines and/or incarceration, so what's the big deal?"



I'm pretty sure that's not gonna stop dedicated loli/shota fans from doing what they do best...and getting ahold of what they want





IDGabrielHM said:


> It doesn't matter if its still possible to get at it through the underground, because it should never have been Forced underground to begin with.  If you're getting it through the black market than anyone who pokes their head above the surface can still instantly be whack-a-mole'd into the justice system and stripped of their own rights in reprisal for doing something that should never have been labeled as a crime to begin with.



if people are looking..at something that most countries in the western hemipshere have some kind of law how ever minor or severe maybe they should...have to work for a little

christ this isn't even that bad..some guy in saudi Arabia got caught with material similar to this and they cut his head off crucified his corps and put it on display in public as a warning..to all other would be pedos -which is absolutely fucked up

and considering what google did might actually be ilegal under US law...and considering how..controversial a topic censorship is.. to a avoid a potential shitstorm 



IDGabrielHM said:


> Prohibition did end; that's not a justification of it that's saying it was a larger than life mistake in the first place, and many people lost their businesses or their lives because of the legal prohibition on alcohol and the underworld response to the ban.



the point is it withered and died...same may happen here..Personally I hope it becomes a criminal offense to own this shit..but what ever..under the law its protect art that likely wont change...so google just fucked up...and will get a slap on the wrist for this



IDGabrielHM said:


> The inevitability of the defeat of measures that censor without just cause is not a justification of the censorship existing.  Who cares that it's transient?  It may be temporary but in that time period people will be wronged, and when all is said and done and the measure is defeated I strongly doubt that sufficient compensations will be provided to those who were wronged; history teaches us that too.



the thing is your treating this like it's an abused Minority..or McCarthyism style attack on art...

it;s not..it's a private company..realizing that the people it answers too (it's investors..) maybe egregiously fucking offended that...certain material that would be illegal if it wasn't for the fact that it's a cartoon and may still be illegal in many countries/states and deciding that they...don't want it hosted...or even be advertised..on their own. property

too bad..what google did would be the akin to you booting a guy out of an apartment you own after the guy painting horrific shit...that you find offensive all over the inside walls

it's only a stroke of luck..that theres a supreme court ruling that *might* protect it..and force google to pull back 



IDGabrielHM said:


> You're dressing up "shit out of luck" as though we were being presented bars of gold.  No dice.



no I'm saying...the offended party is lucky theres a supreme court ruling that might..protect something that other wise..pretty much meets the standards in many states and many countries for a few years in prison...or at the very least an ass load  of fines 

and too suck it up-


IDGabrielHM said:


> You may not be able to fathom why this stuff would be read, but I can't fathom what makes football interesting.  And football is dangerous and violent and a war allegory.  I don't think they should ban football just because I don't personally understand or join in with its fandom.
> The question isn't does it match your personal tastes, the question is does it cause harm or take away anyone else's freedom?  "Creepy" isn't a good enough excuse.  It just ain't.



comparing football too art that depicts minors..children in lude sexual acts...is a bit..silly

especially when...it is illegal..to possess any material objectifying children in a pornographic context....and the only thing protecting this..sorry border line criminal genre is a supreme court rulling from a country in which half..the posters here where ignorantly bashing

I'll take it a step further it actually matters absolutely nothing...what you or I think..or what the owners of the stuff thinks..or what google thinks

the only question that matters is "was what Google did legal?"

under US law..it seems like no..perhaps it's not


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 2, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> I don't even get the issue here..I'm all for stopping unneeded censorship...



So define "needed censorship".



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> but going from blocking the viewing of...rather odd..and rather vile content that most countries have some form of law prohibiting any ways



Homosexuality was also seen as vile and odd at some point.

The fact that something is illegal at some place doesn't justify making it illegal somewhere else. Look at the drug laws, for example.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> Artistc freedom is protected in the US any ways what isn't protected are images sexualize    minors or pretty much anything involving people under a certain age in anything compromising..and in some states/countries even fake or animated images



The problem there is that by that very definition artistic freedom is NOT protected because what is it that makes images that sexualize minors NOT a part of artistic freedom? Of course I see the point in banning photographies, but banning drawings is rather pointless and an excercise in the art of wasting money.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> any ways there is nothing wrong with what was done this stuff is pretty creepy...and I can't fathom why it'd be read



The same could be said about
Guro
Scat
Splatter and gore
Teletubbies



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> either way for the fans of this stuff..realistically since when has a ban on material done anything other then increase the amount thats been released...even if it has to be procured under ground so to speak
> 
> prohibition any one? I doubt this will truly make a lasting dent nothing with ever works with this kind of crap any ways



There is a major difference here. A theoretical ban on lolicon would lower the amount of loli manga out there as the production is going to be

A: Less profitable
B: Illegal

A ban would make the material very difficult to sell by conventional means meaning that manga would probably become almost as difficult to aquire as photographic child porn. I can imagine that photographic material will increase in popularity as the fictional material becomes as illegal as photographic. Some people will probably reason that if they are equally dangerous to possess, then they could just as well go for the more realistic option and grab actual child porn.

Also a ban is a waste of money:
*People kept in prison for possessing illegal pictures costs money
*The prosecution costs money
*The defence costs money
*Money lost from productivity as people are in prison

If we further assume that the laws go as far as the american sex-criminal registry then we can add another point:
*Barred from work, meaning that any education given to this individual through the public school system was wasted

*EDIT:*

What the fuck is with your total abuse of the ellipsis?



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> comparing football too art that depicts minors..children in lude sexual acts...is a bit..silly
> 
> especially when...it is illegal..to possess any material objectifying children in a pornographic context....and the only thing protecting this..sorry border line criminal genre is a supreme court rulling from a country in which half..the posters here where ignorantly bashing



What is wrong with the comparison?

The point is there has been no realistic argument to support the ban of this material in the first place. There are, in fact, less arguments in favour of it than in favour of a ban on football.

*EDIT:*



Amatsu said:


> Honestly I think debating about the censorship of a drawing is about as stupid as censoring the drawing itself.
> 
> But since I don't read lolicon/shotacon in general. I honestly don't care what they do to it. I'm personally not missing out on anything either way.



While this thread isn't really about a law to ban lolicon, (it's about the whole deal with google) your comment shows you don't understand the actual problem here.

A conventional photography (pornographic or non-pornographic) can be placed on a scale of how explicit the image is. If the image is NOT explicit then it is not porn. If it is explicit then it IS porn. Wherever the line is drawn varies from country to country and person to person.

The question to ask about the picture is:
"Is this picture explicit?"

Oh yes. That IS a very vague definition.

When child porn is introduced a second complication is inserted into the above definition. We have a second axis to define the age of everyone involved. This is an easy thing to define, however, as all that's necessary is the identity of the models.

The question to ask about the picture is:
"Are the models old enough?"

This is basically pure binary logic. Yes. No.

In short we have two factors of insecurity with photographic porn: The explicitness AND the age of the people involved. The first factor is vague and undefined, and the latter is easily defined.

Suppose that the laws against child porn were extended to include drawings, this would now add further complications to the above example, as we now would end up the second axis being as difficult to actually define as the former. That is because you CAN NOT determine the age of a drawing by actually finding the model, because there IS no model. What happens is that instead of an unclear axis (explicitness) and a clear one (age) we end up with two unclear scales.

What does all this MEAN then? It means that as age is really impossible to determine for a drawing, we will end up with a lot of drawings being possibly defined as child porn without actually having any children in them just because the characters look like they could be younger than 18. In short: Assuming we get a global ban on loli/shota then we can expect that the apparent age of ALL girls even those borderline will go up, and qualities to exaggerate the age of the characters will go up as well.

This isn't likely to go well with japanese hentai in general in which petite girls are a common element. Legislation would hit hard against anything that is even borderline. Who wants to be arrested for producing child pornography?


----------



## cbus05 (May 2, 2010)

LOL @ the people trying to defend lolicon mangas. 


Here is my explanation, if you would read it in front of your parents, and your friends, then there should be no embarassment about it, right? Because after all, the fact that you're aroused by drawings of what look to be 12 year old girls is just a culture, and doesn't make you an otaku.


And please, don't even try to say you read it for the plot, because... well... that's kind of retarded. 


Should it be banned? Who knows, I don't really care anyway, and it's hard to define drawings as pedophilia. However, it doesn't mean I can't say you're pretty pathetic and weird for being into that shit.


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 2, 2010)

cbus05 said:


> Here is my explanation, if you would read it in front of your parents, and your friends, then there should be no embarassment about it, right? Because after all, the fact that you're aroused by drawings of what look to be 12 year old girls is just a culture, and doesn't make you an otaku.



You can apply that to A LOT of fetishes, though. Gay porn? Scatology? Guro?


----------



## Lord Genome (May 2, 2010)

All those are terrible to(aside from gay porn for gay people i guess)


----------



## The Doctor (May 2, 2010)

lol @ calling lolicon fetishe "culture"


----------



## Amatsu (May 2, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> While this thread isn't really about a law to ban lolicon, (it's about the whole deal with google) your comment shows you don't understand the actual problem here.
> 
> A conventional photography (pornographic or non-pornographic) can be placed on a scale of how explicit the image is. If the image is NOT explicit then it is not porn. If it is explicit then it IS porn. Wherever the line is drawn varies from country to country and person to person.
> 
> ...



tl; dr

But anyways I didn't realize I needed to "understand" the problem to express my complete indifference.


----------



## The Immortal WatchDog (May 2, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Homosexuality was also seen as vile and odd at some point.



there is no comparing the two 



Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> snip



the rest was a big ol'rant and because I don't really feel like getting lofty here I'll just toss this out

at the end of the day the only thing that ,matters..whether your fine with loli your think its absolutely revolting and take issue with it (like me..and a few other posters)

is whether or not what google did can stand up in court...it looks like it can't

so the  reaction...and tirades and raging is moot at the end of the day yall gonna get yer smut back ya hear?


----------



## cbus05 (May 2, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> You can apply that to A LOT of fetishes, though. Gay porn? Scatology? Guro?



Yeah. My point exactly, and all that shit is weird. As I said, it shouldn't be illegal, but making an argument that it's normal and part of "culture" is just stupid. (with the exception of homosexuality).


The fact is, laws against pedophilia are there to protect children for obvious reasons. Since there aren't real life children involved in lolicon, the need to protect real children is avoided. Now, Google choosing not to support this makes complete sense from a PR standpoint.


Conclusion:   You're a fucked up individual if you're hardcore into lolicon. But it still shouldn't be made illegal as there are no grounds for determining what actually is "lolicon" and what is not. I don't care what grounds you have, it's not normal to have an underage cartoon character fetish.


----------



## zuul (May 3, 2010)

I hate lolis and shoutas so I'm all for the ban.

It's up to a point where I will hate almost any prepubescent chara in any manga, because I feel the chara only exists to bait pedo otaku. EWWWWWWWW



Champagne Supernova said:


> aww poor pedophiles


^^This.


----------



## IDGabrielHM (May 3, 2010)

cbus05 said:


> I don't care what grounds you have, it's not normal to have an underage cartoon character fetish.


It's not "normal" to have a stamp collection.  If you're saying lolicon collection is somehow more special or vile then it seems you're just stigmatizing erotica.  This is odd considering both are just rectangular platforms with pictures and symbols drawn on them.



The Immortal WatchDog said:


> there is no comparing the two


That's a matter of opinion, and we don't care about yours.  You don't seem to care about ours.....

I'll admit I got off track with some of my statements.  It started off with just responding to the antagonism of loli/shotacon in general by any entity, but then I see people being very dismissive and saying that it really needs to be taken a whole lot further than what just Google is doing, and I scaled up when I probably should have just maintained.







Asking people to be okay with their friends and families getting in on this is ridiculous; how many people share their whack-off stash with their parents?  Regardless of format, I doubt the extensive majority of people ever show off or share their porn with anyone but the most discerning and select few persons, if anyone.  So why would they share loli or shota?

As for the non-pornographically centered venue, I've watched some of my i*c*st taboo cartoons and such in front of my parents and sister, and shared it with friends.  It's good.  It's really quite good and entertaining.

But if you start off by making this sort of inclination a source of legal persecution, then people are made more likely to keep this sort of thing in the closet for circumstantial reasons rather than for feelings of personal shame.  So when you say be open about it if it isn't wrong, and simultaneously you're saying it is wrong and that society should scowl at and punish it, just what sort of response are you expecting to your request? 

Fear of unjust prejudice is not shame.


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 3, 2010)

The Immortal WatchDog said:


> there is no comparing the two



There is.

I'm not comparing the two fetishes or whatever you want to call them. I'm comparing the ATTITUDE TO THEM.

You were claiming that lolicon/shotacon is vile and odd in something that seemed like an argument to ban the material and I point out that homosexuality was also, and still is in some places, seen as vile and odd.



Amatsu said:


> tl; dr
> 
> But anyways I didn't realize I needed to "understand" the problem to express my complete indifference.



I wrote that to show that a ban on lolicon and shotacon is essentially a ban on most hentai currently in circulation, and any hentai that will from then on be produced will try to avoid being defined as child porn. Hence the fictional characters will be made to look intentionally older, most likely forcing the industry to adopt a non-cute look as is common with american-designed women.

It is naive to think the ban would only affect lolicon and shotacon material.


----------



## Aldric (May 3, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> Homosexuality was also seen as vile and odd at some point.
> 
> The fact that something is illegal at some place doesn't justify making it illegal somewhere else. Look at the drug laws, for example.



It's funny you say that, because not a lot of people remember as it's seen as a shameful part of the Left's history and is conveniently never mentioned in mainstream media nowadays but at some point homosexuality and pedophilia were more or less lumped into the same category, as irrational victims of the Old World's traditions that should be destroyed so that men (and little girls I guess) can truly be free and happy 

People like Jean Paul Sartre and his buddies from the french progressist intellectual "elite" around May 68 authored and supported a bunch of frankly nauseating pro pedophilia "manifestos" and petitions, the newspaper Libération openly supported infamous pedocriminals such as Jacques Dugué, Daniel Cohn Bendit flat out wrote in his autobiography that little kids masturbated him at the elementary school he was working at (claiming they were the ones who initiated the exchange in typical p*d*p**** fashion, which remind me of someone earlier in this thread saying "can this be considered pedophilia if the girl pursues her teacher???" about some loli garbage, so typical)

So basically the distinction progressists are so adamant to make between homosexuality and pedophilia today (if you dare to even compare the two you're basically a fascist) wasn't that obvious 40 years ago, it's interesting to think that maybe, if progressism had its way, maybe with a bit more propaganda, maybe with slightly more understanding from the lowly plebs that never knows what's good for them, pedophilia would be socially widely accepted today, and next step would be the end of the taboo of i*c*st and the return to animality

Afterall as long as people love eachother, right?


----------



## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 3, 2010)

Aldric said:


> It's funny you say that, because not a lot of people remember as it's seen as a shameful part of the Left's history and is conveniently never mentioned in mainstream media nowadays but at some point homosexuality and pedophilia were more or less lumped into the same category, as irrational victims of the Old World's traditions that should be destroyed so that men (and little girls I guess) can truly be free and happy
> 
> People like Jean Paul Sartre and his buddies from the french progressist intellectual "elite" around May 68 authored and supported a bunch of frankly nauseating pro pedophilia "manifestos" and petitions, the newspaper Lib?ration openly supported infamous pedocriminals such as Jacques Dugu?, Daniel Cohn Bendit flat out wrote in his autobiography that little kids masturbated him at the elementary school he was working at (claiming they were the ones who initiated the exchange in typical p*d*p**** fashion, which remind me of someone earlier in this thread saying "can this be considered pedophilia if the girl pursues her teacher???" about some loli garbage, so typical)
> 
> ...



Afair the opinion of paedophilia (around 19th century) was that it was a sign of mental weakness but it was not seen as negative as homosexuality. It was in the 20th century that pedophilia was equated to homosexuality and as a result the two topics became closely intertwined to the point that it forced the homosexuals into completely rejecting pedophilia as a fetish/orientation/whatever.

This article on the subject is quite interesting:

[RAW]Psyren 104

I'm not saying that we should return to viewing pedophilia as something positive here, but rather that it should be seen in a far more neutral light. Currently the subject is loaded to the point of hysteria and that isn't good for anyone in the long run.


----------



## Yōkai (May 3, 2010)

*Spoiler*: _the meaning of BIGOT_


----------



## Will Smith (May 3, 2010)

From Your "Manga" said:
			
		

> > So as to avoid having to learn anything challenging in life



Being a p*d*p**** is challenging?


*Spoiler*: __


----------



## Lightysnake (May 3, 2010)

Taken in the most literal application...yeah, I guess it would be


----------



## Amatsu (May 3, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> I wrote that to show that a ban on lolicon and shotacon is essentially a ban on most hentai currently in circulation, and any hentai that will from then on be produced will try to avoid being defined as child porn. Hence the fictional characters will be made to look intentionally older, most likely forcing the industry to adopt a non-cute look as is common with american-designed women.
> 
> It is naive to think the ban would only affect lolicon and shotacon material.



So what? The majority of hentai I've ever seen has to do with lolis, and even then it's terrible anyways. If you're worried about hentai so much then maybe a ban on lolita hentai doujins would be a good thing. Maybe it would bring in some decent material that's worth looking at for a change.

and lets face it. If you're fapping to that stuff it's not because the characters are "cute." I'm sure it's pretty damn obvious why you're enjoying such filth.


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## cbus05 (May 3, 2010)

IDGabrielHM said:


> It's not "normal" to have a stamp collection.  If you're saying lolicon collection is somehow more special or vile then it seems you're just stigmatizing erotica.  This is odd considering both are just rectangular platforms with pictures and symbols drawn on them.
> Fear of unjust prejudice is not shame.



Umm, actually, having a stamp collection is completely normal. You're confusing what's "common" and what's "normal".

Frequency of occurrence does not correlate with what is or isn't "normal".

And for what it's worth, I DO think a lot of fetishes are weird and abnormal. Justifying the "normality" of lolicon vs. other fetishes won't get you very far either since you're comparing one weird thing with another weird thing. The only difference is that those fetishes are sold as pornography, whereas lolicon is seemingly placed mindlessly into lots of anime and manga these days, and disguised as some plot-worthy story.

And as far as your definition of "rectangular platforms with pictures on them" once again, that's a terrible rationalization. I guess everything my eyes see that is rectangular with images somewhere in it is the same as lolicon? LOL, sorry, but that's just about the worst argument i've ever seen. It's not about the "rectangular squares" it's about what they represent, that of which lolicon represents pedophilia, whereas stamps represent the paying of postage. 


I'm fully aware that people can't control most of their sexual urges, but that doesn't mean we should simply let it fly as if it were some normal thing. There are people who can't control their urges to be mass murderers, kleptomaniacs, or chronic liars. Not saying lolicon is equivalent, but in principle, it's the same issue. This is why I'm glad Google does not support this. It's their choice of free will, whereas legally, it should be allowed should someone pursue this.


So please, stop trying to draw pity on yourselves, and stop trying to justify lolicon as "normal" or "okay". And for the love of god, stop with the "you're ignorant" arguments. I'm an incredibly open minded & atheistic individual, but unlike some other people, I know where to draw the line between what should be socially acceptable, and what shouldn't.  It should not be illegal, but that doesn't mean it should be socially acceptable. Using "youre ignorant" or "bigots" only proves only the opposite.


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## cbus05 (May 3, 2010)

Yōkai said:


> *Spoiler*: _the meaning of BIGOT_



So.... you're saying people who oppose pedophilia are bigots? Are you being serious, or is this a joke?


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## Bilaal (May 3, 2010)

Yōkai said:


> *Spoiler*: _the meaning of BIGOT_


Are you seriously trying to compare your ridiculous fetish of underaged children to sexism, slavery, and capital punishment? _Seriously?_

My God you're retarted.


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## cbus05 (May 4, 2010)

Bilaal said:


> Are you seriously trying to compare your ridiculous fetish of underaged children to sexism, slavery, and capital punishment? _Seriously?_
> 
> My God you're retarted.




Well, here is the good news, you can't reproduce with an animated cartoon.


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## Momoka (May 4, 2010)

Champagne Supernova said:


> aww poor pedophiles



yeah poor pedos


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 4, 2010)

Amatsu said:


> So what? The majority of hentai I've ever seen has to do with lolis, and even then it's terrible anyways. If you're worried about hentai so much then maybe a ban on lolita hentai doujins would be a good thing. Maybe it would bring in some decent material that's worth looking at for a change.
> 
> and lets face it. If you're fapping to that stuff it's not because the characters are "cute." I'm sure it's pretty damn obvious why you're enjoying such filth.



I think it is reasonable to believe that a lot of the draw with hentai for a lot of people is that Japanese porn is more open to cuteness, and that is one of the elements that sets hentai apart from American-made cartoon porn.

There is, for example, no large movement of American artists on the web to create porn or any interest in consuming it, while there seems to exist considerable interest in the consumption of Japanese cartoon pornography. This seems to me to indicate that Japanese cartoon pornography has something that American cartoon pornography does not have.

I'm not using cuteness to justify anything, which seems to be what you think I am doing. I am claiming that cuteness is an intrinsic element of most Japanese hentai, and by combatting lolicon you are also combatting cuteness and thus trying to remove that which sets hentai apart from American cartoon pornography... That is, lolicon and cuteness are related and while they are not the same thing the banning of the former requires legislation that will by definition also affect the latter.


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## Amatsu (May 4, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> I think it is reasonable to believe that a lot of the draw with hentai for a lot of people is that Japanese porn is more open to cuteness, and that is one of the elements that sets hentai apart from American-made cartoon porn.
> 
> There is, for example, no large movement of American artists on the web to create porn or any interest in consuming it, while there seems to exist considerable interest in the consumption of Japanese cartoon pornography. This seems to me to indicate that Japanese cartoon pornography has something that American cartoon pornography does not have.
> 
> I'm not using cuteness to justify anything, which seems to be what you think I am doing. I am claiming that cuteness is an intrinsic element of most Japanese hentai, and by combatting lolicon you are also combatting cuteness and thus trying to remove that which sets hentai apart from American cartoon pornography... That is, lolicon and cuteness are related and while they are not the same thing the banning of the former requires legislation that will by definition also affect the latter.



I'm almost tempted to argue that loli8con and cuteness in that respect are NOT related when it comes to your favorite cartoon porn, but honestly I feel it would be a huge waste of my time to argue something that's go9ing to end up with me getting a huge headache out of annoyance towards the people I'm debating against.


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## ragnara (May 4, 2010)

Why would they ban something that doesn't hurt anyone? It's nothing more than fictional pictures. What's next, banning thoughts about anything illegal?


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## Ennoea (May 4, 2010)

> Why would they ban something that doesn't hurt anyone? It's nothing more than fictional pictures. What's next, banning thoughts about anything illegal?



Because of some people's self righteous, ignorant attitudes.


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## Seto Kaiba (May 4, 2010)

I hate a lot of things, and I don't care for a lot of things, but I don't think they should be banned just for that reason. In the end, it's all just drawings, pieces of fiction.


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## Whimsy (May 5, 2010)

Yōkai said:


> *Spoiler*: _the meaning of BIGOT_



Sort of marred by the last page of an adult french kissing a 4 year old.

That poor repressed minority of paedophiles should rise up and throw off the shackles of oppression. Then whack off to a nappy advert.


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## Akatora (May 5, 2010)

Just wondering did they take down Tenjou Tenge yet?
If not then I guess it'll be next in line


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## Blinky (May 5, 2010)

Was anyone else surprised there's so much pro paedophilia people here ?


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## Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki (May 6, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> Was anyone else surprised there's so much pro paedophilia people here ?



I know for certain there's a lot of anti-censorship people around here.


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## Blinky (May 6, 2010)

Kojiro Ganryu Sasaki said:


> I know for certain there's a lot of anti-censorship people around here.



I'm not saying everyone against this is pro pedo.. But the people comparing what pedo's are going through to what homosexuals have been through ... That's just ridiculous .

There's a difference between two consenting adults and a 30 year old that lusts after kids .


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## Drew8898 (May 6, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> There's a difference between two consenting adults and a 30 year old that lusts after kids .



You mean a 30 year old that lusts after a series of lines and shadings drawn on a piece of paper.

To play devil's advocate again, there's no proven connection between real life pedophilia and people who get off on drawn loli/shotacon.  It may seem like common sense, but back in the day, it was pretty "common sense" that the Earth was the center of the universe, yet that turned out to be wrong.  

Until some actual scientific study comes about that links the two, any talk for or against it is just conjecture and opinion.


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## Oxymoron (May 6, 2010)

^
Do people really believe that any pedophil (in Europe or US) that is actually dangerous (would assault or attempt a rape) actually bothers with lolicon, shatacon or whatever? I mean those probably don't even know what a manga is...

This is all about future censorship.


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## Blinky (May 7, 2010)

Drew8898 said:


> You mean a 30 year old that lusts after a series of lines and shadings drawn on a piece of paper.
> 
> To play devil's advocate again, there's no proven connection between real life pedophilia and people who get off on drawn loli/shotacon.  It may seem like common sense, but back in the day, it was pretty "common sense" that the Earth was the center of the universe, yet that turned out to be wrong.
> 
> Until some actual scientific study comes about that links the two, any talk for or against it is just conjecture and opinion.



So you're saying portaying children in a sexual manner is in no way like paedophilia ? 

I'm out .


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## Seto Kaiba (May 7, 2010)

Hasn't the point of this thread kinda been derailed? I thought it was about the issue of censorship and how far is too far, not about the defense of pedophiles and their habits.


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## ~Greed~ (May 7, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> I'm not saying everyone against this is pro pedo.. But the people comparing what pedo's are going through to what homosexuals have been through ... That's just ridiculous .




The only reason im against this is because Im a anti cencership type of person. I could care less about Loli and Shouta.


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## Blinky (May 7, 2010)

Accelerator said:


> The only reason im against this is because Im a anti cencership type of person. I could care less about Loli and Shouta.



.. As I said I'm not saying everyone against this is pro-pedo .. I even  said that in the post you quoted . 

Okay I'm not going to post anymore because I don't plan on getting in any arguements .


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## Drew8898 (May 7, 2010)

BlinkyEC said:


> So you're saying portaying children in a sexual manner is in no way like paedophilia?



No, I don't feel that the portrayal of fictional, drawn characters is in any way like pedophilia.  It's still a sick habit, yes, but it's one that doesn't actually harm any real people save for the "offender" in regards to his social life.  

The reason loli/shota content is being threatened with censorship is because there's a false link between it and pedophilia.  One is a disorder where one finds children sexually attractive, while another is an extension of a disorder where one finds virtual characters attractive.  

People who suffer from either are sick in the head to be sure, but they suffer from entirely different disorders where one is virtually harmless while the other is exceedingly harmful to real people.


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