# DMS kakashi and juubito vs 8th gate gai and juudara



## xenos5 (Mar 21, 2015)

Former teammates (juubito and kakashi) face off against their respective rivals. This is pre shinju madara (so he isn't immortal) but with double rinnegan. 

Restrictions: no intangibility for kakashi, no omnoyoudon for either side, time limits for 8th gate and kakashi,s powerup are unlimited, no limbo for madara, kakashi and juubito get 30 minutes prep but only have Intel on juudara,s techniques and none on gai,s 8th gate. Gai and juudara don't get any prep and 0 Intel but they get to initiate the fight.


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## Kai (Mar 21, 2015)

Gai clashes with Obito while Madara puts Kakashi in a Rinnegan genjutsu.

Madara then destroys Obito one on one.

Edit: Actually, without Yin/Yang Release Gai can likely kill Obito in their bout. He would have no trouble touching the Gudodama.


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## Trojan (Mar 21, 2015)

Gai and madara win obviously.


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## Horizon28 (Mar 21, 2015)

Guy and Madz curbstomps


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## Rocky (Mar 21, 2015)

Kai said:


> Edit: Actually, without Yin/Yang Release Gai can likely kill Obito in their bout. He would have no trouble touching the Gudodama.



Onmyouton isn't what gives the Gudodama its Jinton-like properties. If that were the case, Hiruzen wouldn't have gotten up after catching it to the face.


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## Deer Lord (Mar 21, 2015)

Gai and madara destroy juubito and his overrated boyfriend.





inb4 raikiri19:"Kakashi solos".


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## Kai (Mar 21, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Onmyouton isn't what gives the Gudodama its Jinton-like properties. If that were the case, Hiruzen wouldn't have gotten up after catching it to the face.


Obito wasn't performing Yin/Yang Release in his mindless state. He was only using Gudodama.

Here Tobirama explains that it's the Yin/Yang that is nullifying all ninjutsu.





			
				aegon-rokudo said:
			
		

> tobi: fourth… do not suffer any more sever wounds…\\even if you have an edo tensei body\\
> tobi: this guy… probably he is using a technique based on the yin yang release that nullifies all the ninja techniques…!\\



That is, Yin/Yang Release is being consciously applied to the Gudodama. I believe Viz has a similar line as well.


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## Alex Payne (Mar 21, 2015)

Kakashi soloes.


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## sabre320 (Mar 21, 2015)

kakashi kamuis himself and obito to kamui land and they wait for gai to die then warp back and beat madara..


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## xenos5 (Mar 21, 2015)

sabre320 said:


> kakashi kamuis himself and obito to kamui land and they wait for gai to die then warp back and beat madara..



I already said in the OP that gai,s 8th gate time limit is unlimited along with kakashi,s powerup.


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## ARGUS (Mar 21, 2015)

Seeing how madara has both the rinnegan, he can solo this,  with guy here its a mid diff win 

 -- Madaras Rikudo PS or Rikudo SS would eradicate kakashis PS,, his rikudo chakra is alot more potent, and is much much larger in quantity, so kakashis PS gets eradicated within a few strikes, 

 -- Kakashis PS isnt having the firepower to take out CT either, not when madara can create a much larger single CT which traps his susanoo and  takes it out,

 -- kamui raikiri is garbage here, it only warps what it pierces AAS preta absorbs it jus fine or TSB and Susanoo can just block it, using limbo to smack kakashi when he solidifies to attack Is also plausible. 

 -- Outside of PS, there isnt much that kakashi could do, he isnt anticipating limbo, which is faster than kamui, added to the fact that there are 4 of them which smack him around left and right, and kill him off, restricting intangiblity just makes this a joke, 

 -- Juubito gets raped by madara, or blitzed by Guy, he is not doing much at all, especially when limbos can assist in an opening and guy lands a clean hit night moth which breaks his ribs, and takes him out


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## Mercurial (Mar 21, 2015)

Deer Lord said:


> Gai and madara destroy juubito and his overrated boyfriend.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The tears are delicious. So is the butthurt I can smell. Blame Kishimoto for Kakashi's feats, not me. Anyway, Madara is killed by Kamui Raikiri followed by long range Kamui. Gai rapes Juubi Obito. 8th Gate Gai vs DMS Kakashi, I'm not sure honestly.


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## Rocky (Mar 22, 2015)

Kai said:


> Obito wasn't performing Yin/Yang Release in his mindless state. He was only using Gudodama.
> 
> Here Tobirama explains that it's the Yin/Yang that is nullifying all ninjutsu.
> 
> l.



I know all of that. That was my point...

I don't see why Gai would have "no trouble touching" the Gudodama here, because Onmyouton being restricted has nothing to do with why the Gudodama erases the matter that it contacts.


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## Icegaze (Mar 22, 2015)

juudara wins 
because well its juudara 
also i think 8th gate gai surpasses DMS kakashi


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## Prinz Porno (Mar 22, 2015)

DMS Kakashi wins
because well its DMS Kakashi
also i think DMS Kakashi surpasses 8 gate Gai


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## LostSelf (Mar 22, 2015)

Madara defeats Juubito (Or Gai, for that matter), then both ganbangs on Kakashi. Once they're finished, Madara and Gai creates the Hidden Village of Awesomeness. The people of the village accepts Gai over Madara and becomes the Gaikage by title, because he already was.

Madara says he will target the Hidden village again, but Gai tells him to stop being emo, smiles, and Madara falls in love while thinking how Hashirama failed to do what Gai did with only one smile.

Madara then gives Gai Rikudo DNA as he worships him everyday, and he becomes the stronger version of Rikudo Sennin, worshiped forever by all Uchihas and Uzumakis, with Prince Lee ordering them all around.


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## Kai (Mar 22, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I know all of that. That was my point...
> 
> I don't see why Gai would have "no trouble touching" the Gudodama here, because Onmyouton being restricted has nothing to do with why the Gudodama erases the matter that it contacts.


I see your point, and you're absolutely right


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## sabre320 (Mar 22, 2015)

ignore kakashis insane feats and then madara and gai wins otherwise...


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## kakashibeast (Mar 24, 2015)

DMS Kakashi Kamui solos


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## Icegaze (Mar 24, 2015)

lol its not any faster than limbo though  
hard to kamui gai when he wont even be able to keep track of gai unless..DMS kakashi got better reactions than juudara with rinnegan


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## Icegaze (Mar 25, 2015)

sorry did u just say kakashi would blitz him?

when sasuke using St and naruto couldnt blitz juudara with 1 bloody eye? sasuke brought him point blank and limbo still saved juudara. and thats ridiculous consideirng naruto and sasuke could at least tell what limbo was

kakashi wont even know a shadow self is about to slap him to death. juudara murders kakashi with neg neg difficulty


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## Mercurial (Mar 25, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> sorry did u just say kakashi would blitz him?
> 
> when sasuke using St and naruto couldnt blitz juudara with 1 bloody eye? sasuke brought him point blank and limbo still saved juudara. and thats ridiculous consideirng naruto and sasuke could at least tell what limbo was
> 
> kakashi wont even know a shadow self is about to slap him to death. juudara murders kakashi with neg neg difficulty



It's not like Naruto and Sasuke (especially Sasuke) weren't doing shit against Kaguya, and that Kakashi could hit and wound her in a direct clash, without her able to defend or even react, in spite of her being in a stronger and faster version than the one that previously fought Naruto and Sasuke together. Oh wait... it's like that, in the manga, at least.

DMS Rikudo Kakashi's long range Kamui is faster than Juudara's Linbo, sorry. Sasuke could react to Juudara's Linbo with ease, Naruto could react to Juudara's Linbo with even more ease. Sasuke couldn't do anything in time to escape from Kaguya's S/T portal, Naruto could barely dodge it. Kakashi could react to it with absolute ease, activating and completing long range Kamui on the S/T portal itself before its warp could even finish to open and teleport the bone projectile on Naruto's face. So if one is not biased it should be logical to say that Juudara's Linbo speed < Sasuke's reflexes < Kaguya's S/T <= Naruto's reflexes < Kakashi's long range Kamui. Hence, if both go for the oneshot, it's Kamui GG. If they don't, Kakashi camps in Perfect Susanoo, a Rikudo enhanced flying Perfect Susanoo that spams Kamui Shuriken, at least four for every row, that generate quick Kamui warps either one the size of the Perfect Susanoo itself. Hence, Linbo it's basically useless, and it's still Kamui GG. I don't really see how it can be said that Linbo is faster than long range Kamui. You can already think that a moving clone, as fast as it can be, cannot be faster that something that directly appears on the objective; but that's only the base, you then have to compare feats, and by feats well it's not even a worthy comparison. Kakashi can't see the Linbo because he lacks Rinnegan, but that doesn't matter when he can oneshot Madara faster thanks to long range Kamui and better reflexes/timing (by feats, one can like it or not, but that is).


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## Grimmjowsensei (Mar 26, 2015)

The obligatory "Gai solos" post is here.


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## Icegaze (Mar 26, 2015)

he reacted to sasuke ST
dont see why he cant react to long range kamui. considering kamui wrap isnt as fast as sasuke ST. based on its mechanics it cant be. same way hirashin would always be faster than kamui regardless of what boost it gets. 

all i gotta say about that. ze end
 you got your opinion i got mine.

kakashi cant kamui snipe while phased. feats of such please go on ill wait 

also clearly cant avoid limbo by phasing when he got nothing to phase against.  why he just going to phase? he cant see the attack

i wasnt aware madara couldnt see chakra beign molded in kakashi eye's before he kamui's. This is 2 eye juudara right. you know the one who never actually got the chance to bully naruto and sasuke. much stronger version of the madara that had difficulties with sasuke


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## Kai (Mar 26, 2015)

Kaguya wasn't blitzed. She got surprised by the phasing power of Kamui. Kakashi commented on the phasing power before he hit Kaguya. Same thing happened when a half dead Obito phased through Madara's physical attack and stole chakra.

It certainly is a fantastic power, but be as biased about the feat as you want. Kakashi is, at best, on Obito's level as we are measuring standards using his exact power and that's unlikely given Obito's prime power as a jinchuuriki.


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## Santoryu (Mar 26, 2015)

Kakash solos.


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## Bonly (Mar 26, 2015)

Madara and Gai should win more times then not. Limbo clones tip the scales in said duo's favor quite a bit as Kakashi wouldn't be able to see them(not sure bout Obito but I think he could but meh) so he'd be screwed but with the real Madara running around who's stronger then Obito and Gai in the 8th gate for the entire match who gave Madara a fun fight, the MS duo should simply get overwhelmed sooner or later.


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## SSMG (Mar 27, 2015)

Guy and juubidara win. If kakashi could go intangible this would be a different discussion bit since that is restricted madara and guy win.


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## Mercurial (Mar 27, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kaguya wasn't blitzed. She got surprised by the phasing power of Kamui. Kakashi commented on the phasing power before he hit Kaguya. Same thing happened when a half dead Obito phased through Madara's physical attack and stole chakra.
> 
> It certainly is a fantastic power, but be as biased about the feat as you want. Kakashi is, at best, on Obito's level as we are measuring standards using his exact power and that's unlikely given Obito's prime power as a jinchuuriki.



If it was just for the phasing power of Kamui, Kaguya could have just sidestepped Kakashi's thrust. Intangible or tangible, what she had in front of her was a man attacking her, her logical reaction would have been counterattack him or dodge him. But she couldn't, canonically, because he was too fast for her. In the databook scan from the 4th databook it is also hyped as a "godspeed thrust" which is perfectly reasonable as Kakashi's own speed (already one of the best in the series) was enhanced by a god's power (Rikudo's chakra from Obito's present). Kishimoto clearly wanted to underline Kakashi's speed with Raikiri, plus the power of Kamui. He could have draw Kakashi attack Kaguya, then Kaguya counterattack him, then he would have dodged the counterattack by Kamui phasing and hit Kaguya. Instead, he chose to draw Kakashi dash against Kaguya and directly wounding her. Like it or not, that is.

Kakashi has all Obito's Sharingan power with perfect mastery and chakra, plus Rikudo chakra enhancing, plus his own skillset empowered by Rikudo chakra. Juubi jinchuriki Obito, as strong as he is, is nearly fodder compared to DMS Rikudo Kakashi. Strongest version of Kaguya (the one that Kakashi fought and outperformed more than once) > Kaguya > Full power Madara > Madara not at full power > Obito. Obito is far weaker than Kaguya, or, better said, less stronger than she is. DMS Kakashi vs Juubi jinchuuriki Obito: the first has a defense that the second can't beat (Kamui phasing, Kamui space-time barrier, Kamui self teleporting, Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo), an offense he can't counter (Kamui Raikiri, long range Kamui), a mobility he can't stop (Kamui self teleporting at maximized speed with both eyes plus Rikudo chakra), a cleverness he can't challenge. Kakashi stomps him in seconds, with Kamui teleporting followed by Kamui Raikiri or long range Kamui on his head (proved to be faster than Kaguya's S/T that was too fast for Rikudo Rinnegan Sasuke, someone who can casually pressure Juubi jinchuriki Madara, who is more powerful than Juubi jinchuriki Obito in everything), just to say. Kakashi dodges everything Obito dishes on him with Kamui phasing, physical speed or Kamui teleporting (at maximized speed having both eyes) or tanks with Rikudo enhanced Perfect Susanoo. With Kamui Shuriken spam he has fun to warp away Juubidama and then he rewarps them in Obito's face from the other dimension. Gudodama are warped with Kamui or nullified with Rikudo chakra. Obito can't evade or defend from Kamui Raikiri and long range Kamui. His head gets warped or cut away, and that should be enough to kill him. And very quickly.

You can say I'm biased all the day, I'm only reasoning on canon manga feats. Who sadly most people try to downplay. Sincerely, I never expected Kakashi to reach such godly level, as strong as he has ever been, I didn't expected this, even when I saw him receving that power up, I was excited but I wasn't expecting such powers and feats. But, that is. Blame Kishimoto if you don't like it, but not downplay.



Icegaze said:


> he reacted to sasuke ST
> dont see why he cant react to long range kamui. considering kamui wrap isnt as fast as sasuke ST. based on its mechanics it cant be. same way hirashin would always be faster than kamui regardless of what boost it gets.
> 
> all i gotta say about that. ze end
> ...



When did he? Also, going just for a second with what are you saying, what is the problem? He reacts, but he has no Hiraishin, he can't counter the warp or stop it, he can't run away physically (he is definitely not faster than Kaguya's S/T that was too fast for people faster than he is). The instant after he has reacted, he is warped. So nothing change.

I never said he can, I actually don't know if he can or cannot. Anyway, that is not necessary when he can just one shot before his opponent can oneshot him.

He cannot, because the jutsu activation and execution, plus Kakashi's own timing, it's simply too fast. I don't think he would have bullied them, also, even if, Naruto and Sasuke were overpowered by Kaguya, who Kakashi managed to fight very very well in a even more powerful version than the one that fight the boys previously. So I don't see really any problem.



Arles Celes said:


> Meh, Sakura blitzed Kaguya too and Sasuke who did not perform so well against Kaguya blitzed Naruto-who blitzed Kaguya- twice. And Madara smacked Naruto with a Limbo hit with the latter being unable to dodge. Madara reacted to the speed of both Naruto and Sasuke preventing himself from being sealed by swapping WITHOUT having any s/t jutsus. Kaguya needed to resort twice to her extremely taxing s/t to avoid being hit by Sasuke's Amenotejikara. Also Naruto nevertheless hit Kaguya like 3 times while Kakashi only once.
> 
> Furthermore Kakashi rarely resorts to immediate Kamui head snipe(and never killed anyone that way) and he did not do so against neither Deva Pain, Madara nor Kaguya herself.
> 
> ...


Seriously, still this argument... Sakura was lauched by Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo (imagine how strong is its throwing power) to attack Kaguya when she would have been already wounded by him and heavily distracted and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke, that would have lead her to be hit someway. That was Kakashi's plan. When she appeared, one of the first things Kaguya did was blitz Sakura. But if you think that really Sakura was faster than Kaguya, very well I don't know what to say to you because your reading comprehension is horrible.

Naruto wasn't blitzed, are you blind? He reacted, and partially ddoged the hit. Also Sasuke distracted him in the first place, having a sort of surprise effect. "Also Naruto nevertheless hit Kaguya like 3 times while Kakashi only once." is ridicolous. Kakashi attacked Kaguya once and hit her once, Naruto attacked her god knows how many times and hit her three times. You make it sound that Kakashi tried to attack Kaguya ten times managing only one. While he has 100% rate.

Because of plot, people use the jutsu that the plot needs them to use. In the Battledome, plot and plot induced choices and stupidity don't exist, people use their skillsets as logically best as they can.

Kakashi can spam Kamui Shuriken, every one of them create a Kamui warp as big as the size of a Perfect Susanoo () and they are faster than Kaguya's chakra arms, that are faster than Rikudo Naruto's clones. Madara's Mokuton clones are basically no factor, sadly.

Amaterasu has been shitted on so many times I can't count them, and basically every really strong character can counter it. Bijuu Dama is really powerful, but can be coutered by some people. Saying that a jutsu never killed anyone means nothing, Rikudo Naruto's Senpo Cho Bijuu Dama Rasenshuriken never killed anyone, Baki's Wind jutsu killed someone, so the latter is stronger than the former? Frog Song takes a lot of time before it can be used, and is still counterable, Koto can be countered killing the user faster than he can perform it. Kamui has no flaws if the user is strong and skilled enough as it is a perfect offense, a perfect defense and grants wonderful versatility.

Gai fighting with the 8th Gate should stomp Juubito, yeah, based on how hard he beated Juudara who is more powerful than Juubito in everything.

Yeah, without Kamui phasing Kakashi definitely loses a lot, for example he can't use Kamui Raikiri. He still has Kamui self teleporting + Rikudo enhanced Raikiri or long range Kamui, though.


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## Icegaze (Mar 27, 2015)

1 eye'd juudara evaded RSM naruto at point blank range thanks to sasuke ST jutsu which by its very mechanics is faster than Kamui 
now naruto shunshin can already blitz kaguya flat out 

yet a simple limbo evaded that

juudara reacts to kamui casually limbo swaps and lol rapes kakashi


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## Mercurial (Mar 27, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> 1 eye'd juudara evaded RSM naruto at point blank range thanks to sasuke ST jutsu which by its very mechanics is faster than Kamui
> now naruto shunshin can already blitz kaguya flat out
> 
> yet a simple limbo evaded that
> ...



Kakashi's long range Kamui (proved to be faster than Kaguya's most powerful S/T jutsu, that when used by a less powerful form of Kaguya was fast enough that Sasuke couldn't do anything against it and Naruto could barely evade it) is directly compared to Sasuke's Rinnegan instant swap (1) by Kishimoto's panels; it isn't as fast because the warp as fast as it can be is nearly instantanous, while the swap is instantaneous. But Kakashi's reflexes and jutsu timing have been clearly proved to be faster than Sasuke, by the respective feats against Kaguya, so a slightly faster jutsu used by a less reflexive opponent < a slightly less faster jutsu used by an opponent with better reflexes and timing. And far tricker and smarter, too.

Also, I'm still waiting for the scan you are referring to.

Naruto wasn't clearly giving his best against Madara like he was against Kaguya. Sasuke was slow as fuck compared to Kaguya, while he was pressuring the hell out of Madara. Madara could handle Naruto, who was as fast, and at his best, definitely faster than Kaguya. So Naruto wasn't clearly giving his best against Madara. 

Not based on what the manga showed, sadly.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 27, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Seriously, still this argument... Sakura was lauched by Kakashi's Perfect Susanoo (imagine how strong is its throwing power) to attack Kaguya when she would have been already wounded by him and heavily distracted and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke, that would have lead her to be hit someway. That was Kakashi's plan. When she appeared, one of the first things Kaguya did was blitz Sakura. But if you think that really Sakura was faster than Kaguya, very well I don't know what to say to you because your reading comprehension is horrible.
> 
> Naruto wasn't blitzed, are you blind? He reacted, and partially ddoged the hit. Also Sasuke distracted him in the first place, having a sort of surprise effect. "Also Naruto nevertheless hit Kaguya like 3 times while Kakashi only once." is ridicolous. Kakashi attacked Kaguya once and hit her once, Naruto attacked her god knows how many times and hit her three times. You make it sound that Kakashi tried to attack Kaguya ten times managing only one. While he has 100% rate.
> 
> ...




Kaguya saw her coming just as she saw Sasuke coming in Susanoo before. This time she did not react in time. And it is not clear if PS did actually throw her or she simply did fall as Kakashi's PS dissolved due to Kaguya's attack. Sakura's example shows how one seemingly much inferior character can still be quite effective. Kakashi blitzin' Kaguya does not make him immune to being similarly trolled by Madara who is much more competent than Sakura. And who could casually block Sakura's punch from close range after being caught off by her regeneration while Kaguya was struck despite being more powerful than him.

And if Naruto wasn't blitzed by Sasuke then neither was Sasuke by Kaguya. You say that wasn't fair because Naruto was distracted -I assume with the katon- but Naruto wouldn't see Sasuke coming behind him because its teleportation and not running. It would make no difference. And Kaguya's attack was also a "sneak attack" with Sasuke's attention focused on Kaguya herself while her arm grabbed him from behind by surprise. Naruto managed to dodge Kaguya's sneak grab but was unable to dodge Sasuke's sneak stroke and had to block instead of dodging.

Plot huh? Well each time Kakashi tried to kill off someone with Kamui either he failed or managed to rip off an arm at best. Kamui was successfully used for strategic attacks by teleporting other people or objects rather than for effectively off opponents. I might as well said that  Frog Song is not used by Naruto because it would defeat everyone otherwise(just keep them protected in Kurama's avatar). Or even the "put someone under genjutsu and cut off said person head right away before he/she breaks the genjutsu". Maybe even Sasuke teleporting his sword into someone's stomach with Amenotejikara or swapping his sword with his opponents brain LOL. And bijuudamas can be quite deadly when spammed as it makes it harder to teleport them away.

And Sakura could dodge said Kaguya's arms too for a time. A mere clone is not as fast as Naruto himself anyway and it is harder when he is in air and may not shunshin as usually. Kaguya's arms being so huge are an easy target anyway. 

If Kamui had no flaws it would not have lost to Minato. Or to Deva Pain. As defense it may be the ultimate if the user completely focuses on it but when the user attacks he is vulnerable. No proof that one can be intangible and snipe at the same time. Intangibility is restricted in this scenario anyway. And invisible/undetectable attacks like Limbo or genjutsu can still troll a Kamui user pretty hard. A s/t like Kaguya's or Sasuke's can also troll it hard, especially sneak attacks of this type since Kakashi is no sensor. Against Kaguya, Kakashi had tons of back up and was no target of her s/t but in a one-on-one fight...


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## Mercurial (Mar 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kaguya saw her coming just as she saw Sasuke coming in Susanoo before. This time she did not react in time. And it is not clear if PS did actually throw her or she simply did fall as Kakashi's PS dissolved due to Kaguya's attack. Sakura's example shows how one seemingly much inferior character can still be quite effective. Kakashi blitzin' Kaguya does not make him immune to being similarly trolled by Madara who is much more competent than Sakura. And who could casually block Sakura's punch from close range after being caught off by her regeneration while Kaguya was struck despite being more powerful than him.
> 
> And if Naruto wasn't blitzed by Sasuke then neither was Sasuke by Kaguya. You say that wasn't fair because Naruto was distracted -I assume with the katon- but Naruto wouldn't see Sasuke coming behind him because its teleportation and not running. It would make no difference. And Kaguya's attack was also a "sneak attack" with Sasuke's attention focused on Kaguya herself while her arm grabbed him from behind by surprise. Naruto managed to dodge Kaguya's sneak grab but was unable to dodge Sasuke's sneak stroke and had to block instead of dodging.
> 
> ...



Kaguya was wounded by Kakashi and hella scared and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke that were on his ass to seal her. Sakura came in the right moment, all according to Kakashi's plan, to the point that if Kaguya worried about Naruto and Sasuke, Sakura would have hit her, if she didn't care about them to focus on Sakura, they would have got her. It's literally that simple. No fanfiction needed.

Kaguya's S/T it's not a sneak attack. The portal opened in front of their eyes and then reappeared back their backs. Because it was too fast for them to react accordingly. It's that simple.

He tried only to kill Deidara when he was still unexperienced with the jutsu, still Deidara was at his mercy and lost an arm, he could have easily died there. Kakashi warped away the arm of the Gedo Mazo, which is a giant thing, in the meantime it was summoned with S/T ninjutsu, and that's 1 MS Kakashi. Kamui feats are crazy, it's just that Kishimoto can't let Kakashi end the fights, so he make him not use it or use it only for support purposes or against people that have a counter (so basically only Obito). Frog Song as said requests to much time before he can be used, and the fact that Nagato couldn't break that genjutsu doesn't mean other people couldn't.

She didn't dodge anything, she being helpless is the point of Kakashi saving her with Susanoo, it's the most simply thing in the world. She reacted to it, yes, once she moved she was already captured, hence Kakashi had to jump in to save her.

Kid Obito lost to Minato. Adult Obito? A really different thing. And Kakashi didn't use Kamui against Pain, other than when he used it to defend himself and Choji. He didn't use it for plot purposes, because Pain would have been helpless but couldn't be, and also because he actually didn't need it, he tricked and cornered the Paths but he was hindered by his own companions once (Asura Path was paralyzed and Deva had just used his gravitational powers and had no clue on Kakashi's position, Kakashi would have silent blitzed Deva with Raikiri as he did with Kakuzu), and then defeated right when he was going for the deathly blow against the enemy.

It's useless to try to downplay Kakashi's feats saying that he had support against Kaguya, when he attacked her head on 1 vs 1, and then saved the others who were in trouble.


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## Arles Celes (Mar 27, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kaguya was wounded by Kakashi and hella scared and pressured by Naruto and Sasuke that were on his ass to seal her. Sakura came in the right moment, all according to Kakashi's plan, to the point that if Kaguya worried about Naruto and Sasuke, Sakura would have hit her, if she didn't care about them to focus on Sakura, they would have got her. It's literally that simple. No fanfiction needed.
> 
> Kaguya's S/T it's not a sneak attack. The portal opened in front of their eyes and then reappeared back their backs. Because it was too fast for them to react accordingly. It's that simple.
> 
> ...



Kaguya was also pressured by Naruto's chakra arms while Sasuke attacked her with PS...and failed unlike Sakura. When Sakura attacked Madara the latter dealt with both her attack and with Naruto and Sasuke-forcing them back- with limbo clones.

Actually from what it looks like it is a sneak attack. A portal opens where Kaguya enters her hand and another portal opens with said hand coming out. Conveniently behind its victims making it impossible to react unless you got SM sensing. Its not like the portal moves in a shunshin like way that can be followed with eyes.

Kakashi also tried to warp the head of both GM and Juubi but was foiled in both instances despite Kamui "supposedly" being instant. And if it is not instant then a speedster like Naruto or a s/t user like Minato or Sasuke can react before their head is warped away.

Sakura actually reacted and dodged at least one Monsterguya's arm but was about to be hit by another one. Naruto's clone apparently couldn't do even that.

Adult Obito lost his arm to LOL Torune and was almost killed by Konan who was casually owned by Jiraiya. Almost killed by Amaterasu too...-the same Amaterasu you said that was so often mocked- and had to resort to Izanagi. Obito might have grown stronger but Minato emerged from their fight before unhurt and had he lived longer he would become stronger too. Obito couldn't defeat base Guy either. Nor did Kakashi defeat anyone in part 2 aside from Zabuza-again- and Obito who actually did throw the fight.

I do not mean to downplay Kakashi and I admit that he contributed GREATLY against Kaguya. I just do not see him so superior to other god tiers nor I see Kamui as perfect and GGish.


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## Mercurial (Mar 27, 2015)

Arles Celes said:


> Kaguya was also pressured by Naruto's chakra arms while Sasuke attacked her with PS...and failed unlike Sakura. When Sakura attacked Madara the latter dealt with both her attack and with Naruto and Sasuke-forcing them back- with limbo clones.
> 
> Actually from what it looks like it is a sneak attack. A portal opens where Kaguya enters her hand and another portal opens with said hand coming out. Conveniently behind its victims making it impossible to react unless you got SM sensing. Its not like the portal moves in a shunshin like way that can be followed with eyes.
> 
> ...



And so?

Not. If you have enough reflexes, you can react to everything, and if you have enough speed and enough reflexes (or a convenient jutsu) you can dodge everything. Kakuzu and Hidan, for example, as high level shinobi could feel the presence of Shikamaru's Kagemane following them and dodge it at the last moment, in spite of it being completely silent and out of their vision (1)(2). The same Kakuzu couldn't dodge Kakashi's silent Shunshin + Raikiri because it was too fast that he couldn't perceive it in time (2). Basically, as I said, it depends on attacker and defender's different speed. Naruto was faster than Sasuke and had better reflexes, hence he could dodge Kaguya's S/T, albeit barely.

These are giant objectives, the bigger the objective the more chakra and time are required to warp away it. With normal human or human body part sized objective, long range Kamui warp is so fast that it is nearly instantaneous. He could warp head sized objects in the same window of time of Obito's intangibility and of a movement of 5 cm from KCM Naruto, human sized masses so fast that Obito with full knowledge and top notch reflexes boosted by Mangekyo Sharingan and Rinnegan vision couldn't perceive the warping happening in front of their eyes, giant sized masses even faster than the instant summon of the Summoning Jutsu. Kakashi could also warp with ease Susanoo arrows and even surprise attacks from Juubi jinchūriki Madara and even warp away his Gudōdama to help his friend Gai in his battle against the Uchiha. Even Minato couldn't perceive what happened when Kakashi used Kamui on the Gedo Mazo while Madara was summoning it, as Obito couldn't react to his quick use of Kamui. Even Madara Uchiha admitted Kakashi's Kamui worth as a jutsu, the same Madara who talked shit about EMS Sasuke.  And that's 1 MS Kakashi, not DMS Rikudo Kakashi.

She barely moved and in that time she was about to be hit. Hence Kakashi saved her with Susanoo.

Obito was casually trolling against Fu and Torune, and didn't take Konan seriously either. Gai is really great and all but even if he could fend off Obito in base if Obito used all his arsenal then Gai would have had to resort to go up to 6th/7th Gates. Also the sheer win/loss track mean nothing. 8th Gate Gai didn't "defeat" anyone, as at the end of the fight he was dying while his opponent, albeit beated, was alive and kicking, while part 1 Naruto defeated Kiba, Neji, Gaara and so on, I mean part 1 Naruto > 8th Gate Gai because he "defeated" more people.

Well it's because of his feats in that fight that I firmly believe that instead.


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## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> Kakashi's long range Kamui (proved to be faster than Kaguya's most powerful S/T jutsu, that when used by a less powerful form of Kaguya was fast enough that Sasuke couldn't do anything against it and Naruto could barely evade it) is directly compared to Sasuke's Rinnegan instant swap (1) by Kishimoto's panels; it isn't as fast because the warp as fast as it can be is nearly instantanous, while the swap is instantaneous. But Kakashi's reflexes and jutsu timing have been clearly proved to be faster than Sasuke, by the respective feats against Kaguya, so a slightly faster jutsu used by a less reflexive opponent < a slightly less faster jutsu used by an opponent with better reflexes and timing. And far tricker and smarter, too.
> 
> Also, I'm still waiting for the scan you are referring to.
> 
> ...



Go read the manga 
Sasuke ST is faster than kaguya 
Naruto using that ST couldn't hit juudara thanks to limbo ze end 
You are going to say a kakashi wins as always 
And I'll disagree in this situation or any that look as silly


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## Mercurial (Mar 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> Go read the manga
> Sasuke ST is faster than kaguya
> Naruto using that ST couldn't hit juudara thanks to limbo ze end
> You are going to say a kakashi wins as always
> And I'll disagree in this situation or any that look as silly



If you're talking about here, Madara was already surprised and hit by both Naruto and Sasuke, you can clearly see the black Raiton from the Rikudo Chidori and the marks from the Jiton Rasengan on his body, and also he activating Rinbo to swap with it before it was too late (1). He didn't reacted until he was hit, he saved himself before feeling the damage and the effect of the hit. This really doesn't help him against something much much faster than Sasuke's Rinnegan swap + Chidori (as the same attack was easily dodged by Kaguya, Kaguya is not faster than her own S/T teleportation, and that S/T, that also was too fast for Rinnegan Sasuke and nearly too fast for Rikudo Naruto, is canonically not as fast as Rikudo DMS Kakashi's long range Kamui).

I'll say it when the manga shows that it's the case. If you think I have time to waste to suck an imaginary character's dick, you're completely wrong.


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## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

So if he can save himself mid attack like u said an attack already in place 
It means him swapping with limbo is super fast which means the instant kamui takes effect he swaps 


U brought up the dick sucking not me . What does that say about your motives 

Kakashi poor penis should be scared of u


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## Mercurial (Mar 28, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> So if he can save himself mid attack like u said an attack already in place
> It means him swapping with limbo is super fast which means the instant kamui takes effect he swaps
> 
> 
> ...



It is definitely fast, definitely not fast as long range Kamui warp, at least not from DMS Rikudo Kakashi. I've already underlined how it is faster than Kaguya's S/T, that is faster than Kaguya herself, that is faster than Sasuke's Chidori thrust post Rinnegan swap, that is faster than Juudara's reflexes. It is debatable is Madara could even react, but the instant he reacts, Kamui warp has already started, while he activates Linbo and swaps with it, albeit it's nearly a no time, the warp will be already completed.

It's just a way to say. Like wanking, for example, it comes from the same language area


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## Icegaze (Mar 28, 2015)

Poor Kakashi


Ok raikiri not going to remotely convince me nor I u


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## MS81 (Mar 28, 2015)

Juubito could teach DMS Kakashi a few of Rikudou jutsu's since he has rikudou chakra!!! 

but still would fail against DR Madara and 8th gate gai!!!


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## Ashi (Mar 28, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> The tears are delicious. So is the butthurt I can smell. Blame Kishimoto for Kakashi's feats, not me. Anyway, Madara is killed by Kamui Raikiri followed by long range Kamui. Gai rapes Juubi Obito. 8th Gate Gai vs DMS Kakashi, I'm not sure honestly.



How is Kamui Lightning Blade Killing Madara


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## Icegaze (Mar 31, 2015)

this

didnt madara basically already say that limbo is faster than kamui. 

now for the butthurt bit of the response. limbo would be faster. can u say for sure he was referring to kamui. now considering his black orbs could flat out stop kamui wrap. 

a faster jutsu would do so with more ease. thats if we want to interprete it as he was comparing limbo to truth seeking orbs. 

 can be interpreted as him comparing limbo to kamui as well.


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## Mercurial (Mar 31, 2015)

Icegaze said:


> This is the town they are fighting in
> 
> didnt madara basically already say that limbo is faster than kamui.
> 
> ...



*Better translation*. Madara simply said that with Rinbo he could have avoided the issue because he was 1 vs 2, but with Rinbo things would have been faster as he would have been able to attack both at the same time. But Obito had the Rinnegan so he could see the Rinbo. On the opposite, this could be interpreted as something that implies that tired Obito or 1 MS Kakashi, advised by Obito, could dodge Rinbo, hence Madara preferred not to use it.

Anyway, this adds nothing good on the pro Madara argument, and that's at best. Especially when we already know, by direct manga feats, that DMS Rikudo Kakashi's long range Kamui is faster than Kaguya's S/T, that is faster than Kaguya herself, that is faster than Rinnegan Sasuke's Chidori thrust post Rinnegan swap, that is faster than Juudara's reflexes.


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## Icegaze (Apr 1, 2015)

Raikiri19 said:


> *Better translation*. Madara simply said that with Rinbo he could have avoided the issue because he was 1 vs 2, but with Rinbo things would have been faster as he would have been able to attack both at the same time. But Obito had the Rinnegan so he could see the Rinbo. On the opposite, this could be interpreted as something that implies that tired Obito or 1 MS Kakashi, advised by Obito, could dodge Rinbo, hence Madara preferred not to use it.
> 
> Anyway, this adds nothing good on the pro Madara argument, and that's at best. Especially when we already know, by direct manga feats, that DMS Rikudo Kakashi's long range Kamui is faster than Kaguya's S/T, that is faster than Kaguya herself, that is faster than Rinnegan Sasuke's Chidori thrust post Rinnegan swap, that is faster than Juudara's reflexes.




better translation because u want it to be. any japanese person to substantiate the claim that its a better translation?

yh suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure. that tired obito could have avoided it. hence why juudara said its faster than either kamui or truth seeking balls. ur fanfic knows no bounds

erm if sasuke St was faster than juudara reflexes he wont have avoided naruto point blank 
who by the way is faster than kaguya


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