# KCM Naruto vs Edo Itachi



## SuperSaiyaWoman12 (Jan 28, 2013)

*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC
*Location*: Naruto vs Raikage
*Distance*: 50m
*Restrictions*: Koto, Izanami
*Conditions*: 
-This is Naruto before he gained BM (aka. 13 clones max/Kyuubi is not necessarily friendly).
-Since Naruto can't actually seal him, assume he wins if he 'kills' Itachi 3 times. Kill as in hurt him significantly (think Kabuto bisection), blowing off an arm doesn't count. Itachi knows this so he'll be careful.


----------



## SunRise (Jan 28, 2013)

How Nardo can counter genjutsu?...  Without assuming that genjutsu + totsuka or tsukuemi + totsuka will end fight quickly, Naruto can take him out by FRS, mini-BB, Rasengans or something else multiple times with mid diff I think. But dat crow clones or other tricks can make fun a bit longer  Also, by powerscaling KCM Naruto got city level dc and durablity.


----------



## Ersa (Jan 28, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> How Nardo can counter genjutsu?...  Without assuming that genjutsu + totsuka or tsukuemi + totsuka will end fight quickly, Naruto can take him out by FRS, mini-BB, Rasengans or something else multiple times with mid diff I think. But dat crow clones or other tricks can make fun a bit longer  *Also, by powerscaling KCM Naruto got city level dc and durablity*.


This is false.

KCM Naruto has not shown city level durability nor city level DC. Mini BB could very well be city level DC (logically it should be) but we know nothing. FRS is town level. 

From what we've seen from his durability I doubt he's able to tank attacks like Madara's slash, KN6 Bijuudama and possibly Kirin so I doubt he's city level there.

As for the fight, it could go either way honestly.


----------



## Hossaim (Jan 28, 2013)

Itachi rapes so hard.

Naruto has no conceivable way to kill Edo Itachi.


----------



## SunRise (Jan 28, 2013)

*Rasant*


VioletHood said:


> by powerscaling


Be more attentive next time. 
*Hossaim*
Nope.

He just needs to seriously harm him 3x times by OP.


----------



## Ersa (Jan 28, 2013)

Apart from BM Naruto who has insane durability feats the rest of Naruto's forms haven't shown too many durability feats. I don't agree with power-scaling KCM Naruto to that level of attack.

He openly admitted A's attacks can hurt him and Roshi's attacks caused him considerabe pain. Attacks like KN6 Bijuudama and Madara's slash would destroy him via power-scaling. 

Power-scaling works better when they have more hype then feats imo


----------



## Ricky Sen (Jan 28, 2013)

Naruto can lose more ways than he can win and his methods of attack are also less effective.

It's a bad matchup. Itachi wins 8/10 mid-high difficulty. With no reliable genjutsu defense, in this scenario, he's at an extreme disadvantage.

Can his clones break him out of genjutsu? I never thought of that before now. That would chage the matchup significantly. Hmmmm.....


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 28, 2013)

Kurama can still break him out of genjutsu. He gained that ability once he was able to use KCM and still under his own control.

Clones only have to transfer their energy to Naruto and he's out of genjutsu. Also Itachi could hit clones w/ genjutsu more times then not as he is suceptible to clone feints.

Also if an arm is blown off Itachi can bleed out so that can be counted as a death since no normal being can sustain combat while missing an arm, unless it was cauterized, Jiraiya lasted 5 mins if that after his arm was ripped off.

Naruto is to versatile, he can throw 5 mini FRS at the same time, 10 if u count other hand and there is no way for Itachi to block, he also has chakra arms and flash like speed.

Naruto wins 6/10 high diff.


----------



## IchLiebe (Jan 28, 2013)

Rasant said:


> Apart from BM Naruto who has insane durability feats the rest of Naruto's forms haven't shown too many durability feats. I don't agree with power-scaling KCM Naruto to that level of attack.
> 
> He openly admitted A's attacks can hurt him and Roshi's attacks caused him considerabe pain. Attacks like KN6 Bijuudama and Madara's slash would destroy him via power-scaling.
> 
> Power-scaling works better when they have more hype then feats imo



Bee was also hurt by flaming shurikens that he caught barehanded, yet tanked bijuudama.

Kisame was shown to be ripped apart by a lariat, but was still intact after Hirudora.


I don't agree w/ powerscaling whatsoever. If a character has shown a feat than that feat doesn't lose or gain any ability, abilities over time due to other techniques that have nothing to do with original technique. Unless said character got a significant boost in chakra which still makes no sense due to the ability that u can use the same technique with much smaller amounts of chakra but still have the same power if not more if they are good at chakra manipulation.


What durability feats does Itachi have, none.


----------



## Trojan (Jan 28, 2013)

Naruto wins. IMO

(=


----------



## PDQ (Jan 28, 2013)

Ricky Sen said:


> Can his clones break him out of genjutsu? I never thought of that before now. That would chage the matchup significantly. Hmmmm.....


Probably.  He remembered Chiyo's tip about 2v1, he can have one break him out, which is why he didn't run the first time since he said he himself is can be 1 or 1000.
(2)



It depends how Naruto approaches him.  In character, he's shown a willingness to use Kage Bunshin to test his opponents and minimize risk to himself.  If he does that instead of going in directly, he'd probably win.  A dozen Kage Bunshin moving at A's speed definitely could pull it off.

If he charges headfirst solo like he seemed to do a bunch of other times, he'd get hit by Totsuka or Amaterasu.

That also assumes he knows not to waste all his KCM chakra trying to do a failed Bijuu Rasengan.  We've seen he's willing to have all his clones attack with Oodama Rasengan simultaneously.  Swap that out with FRS, with the ability to throw and catch it like against Raikage and this would be very hard for Itachi.  Itachi could probably take out a couple of clones with Amaterasu and Totsuka(although it'd be tricky given how he could keep up with A, and A could run circles around Sasuke, but that assumes Naruto uses that speed instead of the slower one he seems to use other times) but Naruto with that many Bunshin would be too hard to deal with.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2013)

Naruto himself told Killer Bee that getting hit with Amaterasu or Tsukyomi would be a GG. Seeing as Itachi has the feats to keep up with KCM Naruto/Bee and Kabuto he should conceiveibly be able to land one or the other. Not to mention totuska is a GG


----------



## Panther (Jan 28, 2013)

RM Naruto destroy's Itachi.

RM Naruto dodges Amaterasu with his Yellow Flash shunshin while Tsukuyomi and genjutsu gets countered by Clone spamm, in this case its gonna be 13 RM clone's, CQC against RM Naruto is gonna be suicide for Itachi, RM Naruto has insane durability  (Tanking A's punches and Han's V1-Steam armor powered kick to the chin) so Itachi's Taijutsu is gonna be useless since he can't hurt Naruto,while RM Naruto on the other hand can rip Itachi apart with boulder crushing chakra arms or just get blind sided from one of the RM clones.

Totsuka isn't touching a guy who has movement speed equal to V1 Raikage and the shunshin to dodge V2 A's punch from point blank, Susanoo gets busted by RM Naruto and his 13 RM clones who all can spamm FRS and Mini-TBB and guide said attack at Susanoo's back with chakra arms.


----------



## Triggenism (Jan 28, 2013)

It can go either way, but I'm willing to give Itachi the upper hand due to Tsukiyomi, Itachi may get destroyed once or twice, but eventually he's the smarter shinobi. So he will catch Naruto in tsukiyomi at some point, after that it's GG as Itachi casually kills what is now base naruto. If he fails in genjutsuing Naruto, Amaterasu may kill Naruto if he manages to tag him with it.

Itachi wins 7/10


----------



## Panther (Jan 28, 2013)

^ 

Naruto isn't running out of RM considering he was for almost 2 day's in that mode. Amaterasu gets dodged with shunshin and Tsukuyomi gets countered by RM clone spamm.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2013)

KCM Naruto can't fully control his speed and is usually around V1 Raikage Level speed. This was shown when Naruto was repeatedly intercepted by the V1 Raikage, despite saying he would speed up to run around him[1].

V1 Level speed is not sufficient to dodge Amaterasu. The Raikage saw the mangekyou sharingan and immediately went V2 the next panel when he knew he had to dodge Amaterasu[2].

So KCM Naruto doesn't have the speed to dodge Amaterasu. In addition to that, he won't be able to anticipate its usage by looking at Itachi's eyes, because he would risk getting caught in Tsukiyomi. So he'll be fighting the whole battle looking at Itachi this way essentially[3] Except he won't be looking at Itachi's hands either.

KCM Naruto can't dodge Amaterasu with his normal, non-yellowflash speed- and he won't be looking out for when it is coming either.

Because of Naruto's diminished visual lock on Itachi, Itachi will be able to easily and repeatedly feint him with clone attacks if need be to create openings against the already disadvantaged target [4].

And then there's Susanoo to factor and the fact that Edo Itachi can sustain it forever due to infinite chakra, essentially making dealing a deathblow to Edo Itachi almost impossible.

KCM has some semblance of a chance to win provided he resorted to some OOC behavior but its unlikely. He has to dodge Amaterasu and Susanoo and not get KO'd by clone feints. He has to do this without even seeing these fast attacks coming. And Itachi can use them all day long because of Edo chakra replenishing.


----------



## Turrin (Jan 28, 2013)

Due to Itachi unlimited stamina this match essentially boils down to two things 1) whether KCM Naruto can bust Itachi's Susano'o. We don't have the necessary Data to determine this for certain, but I will say KCM Naruto is one of the characters who has the best chance with the amount of FRS he can generate. 2) If Naruto is smart enough to summon out Ma/Pa to use their sound based Jutsu. Naruto really hasn't used these 2 since the pain arc so who knows how likely that is. 

I'm going to go with can't be determined at this point.


----------



## Panther (Jan 28, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> KCM Naruto can't fully control his speed and is usually around V1 Raikage Level speed. This was shown when Naruto was repeatedly intercepted by the V1 Raikage, despite saying he would speed up to run around him[1].


 You just pointed out that V1 A's movement speed is equal to that of RM Naruto and vica versa... RM Naruto is only faster then A when he uses his Yellow Flash Shunshin.



> V1 Level speed is not sufficient to dodge Amaterasu. The Raikage saw the mangekyou sharingan and immediately went V2 the next panel when he knew he had to dodge Amaterasu[2].


 Hebi Sasuke was able to outrun it for a short time. RM Naruto's movement speed is even faster then that... but i agree that he can't outrun Amaterasu forever so he outright dodges it from the beginning.



> So *KCM Naruto doesn't have the speed to dodge Amaterasu.* In addition to that, he won't be able to anticipate its usage by looking at Itachi's eyes, because he would risk getting caught in Tsukiyomi. So he'll be fighting the whole battle looking at Itachi this way essentially[3] Except he won't be looking at Itachi's hands either.


 Bolded. 3

3
RM clone spamm counters both Tsukuyomi-general genjutsu and Amaterasu since Itachi won't know which one is the real Naruto. Clones are immune against genjutsu since they dodn't feel any pain on top of that Itachi will need to lower his Susanoo to Ribcage form just like Madara did so that he can cast either his Katon jutsu or Amaterasu, by lowering his defense like that he risks himself of getting killed by just 1FRS.

finger genjutsu was almost brocken by Pre-Wind Arc Base Naruto... RM Naruto breacks easily out of it with a Kyuubi Chakra mode powered Kai.



> KCM Naruto can't dodge Amaterasu with his normal, non-yellowflash speed- and he won't be looking out for when it is coming either.


 Amaterasu gets dodged with his yellow flash shunshin. Clone's plus speed negate the risk of getting caught in genjutsu when he looks at Itachi's eye's for Amaterasu.



> Because of Naruto's diminished visual lock on Itachi, Itachi will be able to easily and repeatedly feint him with clone attacks if need be to create openings against the already disadvantaged target [4].


 Speedsters are a good counter against genjutsu. Raikage was fighting against 5 Susanoo clones and only got caught inside of a genjutsu after he was caught off guard because of his concern for Tsuande and needed to be held still by the Susanoo so that they could get eye contact... Naruto is not only a speedster but has his 13 RM clones to rely on. Itachi's Kb feints get countered by Negative emotion sensing and destroyed by 1 of RM Naruto's clones.



> And then there's Susanoo to factor and the fact that Edo Itachi can sustain it forever due to infinite chakra, essentially making dealing a deathblow to Edo Itachi almost impossible.


 Susanoo gets busted open from the back by FRS and Mini-TBB guided with Chakra arms from the Real Naruto and his RM clone's.



> KCM has some semblance of a chance to win provided he resorted to some OOC behavior but its unlikely. He has to dodge Amaterasu and Susanoo and not get KO'd by clone feints. He has to do this without even seeing these fast attacks coming. And Itachi can use them all day long because of Edo chakra replenishing.


 Amaterasu is easily dodged with shunshin while Tsukuyomi is countered by mass clone spam. Susanoo and Totsuka gets evaded by V1 speed and later on busted open with chakra arm guided FRS and Mini-TBB to the back of Itachi's Susanoo, once Susanoo is down Itachi gets blitzed by RM Naruto and his RM clones. Itachi may have edo chakra replenishing but RM Naruto isn't gonna run out of RM chakra before he kills Edo Itachi 3x.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2013)

This match would be different(a little) if KCM Naruto had mastered his speed, but he never showed us he can use his yellowflash shunshins whenever he wants to. They(the yellowflash shunshins) are and have been throughout his performance sporadic and only happening at random times. 

If he could just think to use that speed whenever he wants to he would be much stronger I agree, but he can't use those whenever he wants to. If you can prove he can use his yellow flash shunshins whenever he wants to I'd be willing to see it though. My post has been assuming he will at around a v1 level of speed.


Naruto's fought Itachi a good number of times at this point and has never utilized the tajuu kage bushin against him. If Kishi were to draw even another battle between them, Naruto would probably once again not use TKB if the author remains consistent.

Even if he did though, since itachi has infinite stamina here. He could just totsuka or amaterasu them all anyway with no fatigue on his part but a lot on Naruto's part(Naruto couldn't maintain KCM after those 13 clones and the doujutsu edo fight).


----------



## Rocky (Jan 28, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> This match would be different(a little) if KCM Naruto had mastered his speed, but he never showed us he can use his yellowflash shunshins whenever he wants to. They(the yellowflash shunshins) are and have been throughout his performance sporadic and only happening at random times.



This confuses me. Where exactly are you drawing the idea that Naruto doesn't have control over his Shunshin from? Ever since the Raikage fight, he's been using it _adamantly._ [1][2][3]

The body flicker is a very basic technique. Just because Naruto doesn't flicker everytime he moves does not mean he cannot control it. He's controlled it perfectly fine before, and saying otherwise blatantly goes against the Manga.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Jan 28, 2013)

I think if its the RM Naruto w/o clones I'm going to give Edo Itachi the edge becuase its going to be difficult to bypass an infinite susanoo, but RM Naruto w clones is too much for Itachi.


----------



## Ersa (Jan 28, 2013)

Naruto lacks the firepower to bust Susanoo from the front imo. Since Mini BB is still featless and all. Though from Madara's fan the explosive damage looked pathetic at best. Yata should tank any FRS with ease considering it tanked a more destructive attack in Kirin. 

A FRS in the back should hurt Susanoo and possibly bust it but Itachi can always make his own clones to cover his blindspots or place Amaterasu behind him so Naruto can't get behind. Honestly the longer this fight plays out the worse it becomes for Naruto, Itachi can continue spamming Amaterasu and make it harder for Naruto to approach.

It boils down to whether Itachi can stop Naruto from blindsiding him with a combination of Amaterasu/clones/crows.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 28, 2013)

13 Kage-level bunshins.

If Itachi tries to hit one of them with amaterasu, the other 12 kill him 12 times over.

If Itachi wants to use Armored susanoo, he gets waves of 13 FRS from different angles guided by chakra arms that disintegrates him and his defense.

If he wants to use Tsukuyomi, he's going to have to pull off a distraction to get one of the 13 clones in it, in which case he gets ended 12 x over by the other 12.  And of course that isn't happening to the guy with the best sensing in the manga and best reactions.

Everything else in his arsenal isn't even significant in this fight.

Against a full powered KCM Naruto who hasn't been spending his chakra training to learn TBB, squandering his chakra by holding KCM for half a day, running around with Ei, and finally dividing what's left into 13, Itachi doesn't stand a chance.

Make this the Naruto that fought edo nagato and edo itachi wins.  However even SM Naruto would beat that Naruto.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2013)

At 50 M Itachi isn't going to blindly blitz, he will set up a trap for Naruto(which who he has fought with, and fought against multiple times, so he knows he isn't the sharpest crayon in the box) involving clone feints and Genjutsu. In this match-up Genjutsu will be of little consequence, as best case scenario mirrors Edo Itachi's base sharingan attempt on Bee. The only threat genjutsu wise is Tsukyomi which Naruto has already admitted is a GG. This means Naruto won't be looking into Itachi's eyes, so Itachi would have to force it making it awkard unless Naruto is weakened. Amaterasu could work, as Naruto would have been fucked in the manga had Itachi not killed Cerberus instead.(and remember up until Cerberus, the bird and Nagato are down Naruto doesn't know Itachi is on his side.) but with full knowledge, clones, and Hirashin like shushin anything short of using it combo with clone feints is worthless. Susano will be a key factor here for Itachi, in this form he can easily grab Naruto clones, and or slice/seal them with Totsuka Sword. His defense is also bolstered by Stage 4 susano added to by Yata mirror. Sasuke susano was able to take a multitude of attacks including ranton, Fuuton, and explosives all at + Reactions)once, and Itachi withstood Kirin. Itachi will press Naruto in Susano if it comes to it, and Itachi's speed being in the SM ballpark combined with sharingan will give him ample speed to atleast not get outright blitzed. Even Sick Itachi could give KCM a run for his money, Edo Itachi with an unlimited source of chakra  will simply end KCM Naruto through use of his intelligence and clonefeinting/MS

IMO Healthy Itachi = Minato > KCM Naruto due to intelligence, insight and jutsu/battle efficiency. Edo Itachi is pretty much healthy Itachi with Energizer batteries he wins this albeit Hgh diff 9/10 times as an edo 7/10 times Healthy. Wins 3/10 Times sick.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> At 50 M Itachi isn't going to blindly blitz, he will set up a trap for Naruto(which who he has fought with, and fought against multiple times, so he knows he isn't the sharpest crayon in the box) involving clone feints and Genjutsu. In this match-up Genjutsu will be of little consequence, as best case scenario mirrors Edo Itachi's base sharingan attempt on Bee. The only threat genjutsu wise is Tsukyomi which Naruto has already admitted is a GG. This means Naruto won't be looking into Itachi's eyes, so Itachi would have to force it making it awkard unless Naruto is weakened. Amaterasu could work, as Naruto would have been fucked in the manga had Itachi not killed Cerberus instead.(and remember up until Cerberus, the bird and Nagato are down Naruto doesn't know Itachi is on his side.) but with full knowledge, clones, and Hirashin like shushin anything short of using it combo with clone feints is worthless.


you see, everything up here seems sort of reasonable, but the rest...



Dr. White said:


> Susano will be a key factor here for Itachi, in this form he can easily grab Naruto clones, and or slice/seal them with Totsuka Sword.


What in the world is this based on?  Easily grab naruto's KCM clones?  Easily slice/ seal them iwth Totsuka sword?  Clones that can move at V1 Ei speeds?

And what are the rest of the clones doing while itachi is grabbing 1 or slicing some?  

Sasuke can't even easily grab people like Danzou, and why would the clones even be in grabbing distance when itachi brings out his monster tank considering their only chance of busting susanoo is with their long range FRS? 



Dr. White said:


> His defense is also bolstered by Stage 4 susano added to by Yata mirror.


okay



Dr. White said:


> Sasuke susano was able to take a multitude of attacks including ranton, Fuuton, and explosives all at + Reactions)once,


yet it was blasted open from behind by danzou's powered up fuuton which is nothing compared to a FRS.  And Itachi will be dealing with waves of 13 from different directions.



Dr. White said:


> and Itachi withstood Kirin.


His susanoo was completely obliterated by the attack



Dr. White said:


> Itachi will press Naruto in Susano if it comes to it,


how will he be pressing naruto when there are 13 narutos throwing guided FRS at him?



Dr. White said:


> and Itachi's speed being in the SM ballpark combined with sharingan will give him ample speed to atleast not get outright blitzed.


sure, he doesn't get outright blitzed



Dr. White said:


> Even Sick Itachi could give KCM a run for his money, Edo Itachi with an unlimited source of chakra  will simply end KCM Naruto through use of his intelligence and clonefeinting/MS


from the above argument, how do you reach this conclusion?  Clone feints are useless when the real itachi is using susanoo, naruto has far more clones than itachi, and is the best sensor in the manga.  Itachi tried the clone feint on KCM Naruto and it didn't work due to naruto's sensing.  Now he is up against 13 of those narutos.

It's as if the KCM Naruto that itachi will be facing is the 7% one that he fought edo nagato without the ability to sense, and only the ability to make base clones.



Dr. White said:


> IMO *Healthy Itachi = Minato > KCM Naruto* due to intelligence, insight and jutsu/battle efficiency. Edo Itachi is pretty much healthy Itachi with Energizer batteries he wins this albeit Hgh diff 9/10 times as an edo 7/10 times Healthy. Wins 3/10 Times sick.



 if only the name of this manga was Dragon Ball....


----------



## Lawrence777 (Jan 28, 2013)

> This confuses me. Where exactly are you drawing the idea that Naruto doesn't have control over his Shunshin from? Ever since the Raikage fight, he's been using it adamantly. [1][2][3]
> 
> The body flicker is a very basic technique. Just because Naruto doesn't flicker everytime he moves does not mean he cannot control it. He's controlled it perfectly fine before, and saying otherwise blatantly goes against the Manga.


I'm talking about KCM naruto and his feats. 
BM Naruto can use his max shunshins whenever he pleases because he has done so multiple times. 

KCM Naruto on the other hand cannot. He would have fights, and then during them he would have crazy "I won't fail!!!!!" moments and enter yellowflash speed for a second. If he could control his yellowflash speed at will he would of ran past raikage the first time he tried.

We know for a fact _KCM_(not BM) naruto couldn't control his speed. Asserting he can in fact now control his speed requires some degree of evidence.

Unless you think he's going to have those moments just as amaterasu gets launched at him, he won't be dodging it-especially without even seeing it coming.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2013)

> > What in the world is this based on?  Easily grab naruto's KCM clones?  Easily slice/ seal them iwth Totsuka sword?  Clones that can move at V1 Ei speeds?
> >
> > And what are the rest of the clones doing while itachi is grabbing 1 or slicing some?
> 
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 28, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> > -You seem to think that IC Naruto is going to bust out a multitude of clones when facing someone 1v1. Ever since the beginning 10 chapters or so Naruto's has been able to make hundreds of clones, yet in one on one scenario's and other like for example against Kabuto/Orochimaru Naruto doesn't use excessive amounts of clones barring for utilization(such as making a bridge, a catault for himself, saving himself from a fall, etc) in a 1v1 fight the most clones Naruto tends to make are 4-5.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> -Danzo used Baku to suck up susano so that it was no solid and formed then he blasted the loose shield with an ehnaced powerful futton jutsu.(it was being enhanced by Baku's sucking.) this didn't even put his Susano out. Itachi's stage 4 is much more tough than the form Sasuke was using and has a yata shield.




What even suggests Sasuke's susanoo wasn't solid when danzou blasted it?  Nothing, and the fuuton blew susanoo open so much that sasuke was exposed.  It doesn't matter if it didn't put sasuke's susanoo out, no one is arguing that it did, however it's a much weaker wind attack that a FRS that did considerable damage to a susanoo only 1 stage below itachi's max.



Dr. White said:


> -Once again I don't believe naruto can/would do that. 13 clones spamming FRS really? Until you can explain the above reasons as to why he didn;t do this vs Edo Itachi + Nagato(and almost got soloed), then again vs Madara, an the again vs Tobi(in which he almost got soloed, and still even since gaining BM has yet to use the strategy you suppose.)


I'm pretty darn sure my explanations have been VERY good.



Dr. White said:


> -so it appeared, but then Itachi got right back up reletavily unphased by the lightning bolt...



brotherin, itachi's cloak was blown off of him and he was on the ground for pages.  And what does this have anything to do with the fact that Susanoo was completely vaporized by kirin?







Dr. White said:


> Itachi can use substiution jutsu with a clone,


Naruto's a sensor and has the best reactions in the manga...



Dr. White said:


> or temporarily genjutsu him into attacking a clone,


he needed shisui's eye to genjutsu naruto back in the fuuton arc, Naruto has complete knowledge on his genjutsus and he will be facing way more than 1 naruto.



Dr. White said:


> and then he is faced with a huge eplosion in his face.


which would do noting considering what it did to kakashi and RM Naruto's tanking feats.



Dr. White said:


> Although I didn't take into account his sensing, Im not 100% sure there is evidence he could differentiate clones, as RM relied on sensing people's intentions. I'm not sure clones would have much different intentions than Itachi himself.


it doesn't matter if he can't differentiate between clones, you don't need to differentiate between clones in order to null bunshin feints. 



Dr. White said:


> -So the one Kishi has decided to show countless time in the manga? Yeah I'll stick Kishi's portrayal of characters in his manga over your claims that Naruto simply creates 15 clones and bombs the field.




brother read the freekin OP.  This is NOT the naruto that fought Edo nagato and Itachi, the manga made it explicit in showing why Naruto can't make clones in his fights.  Geez louise, debate honestly.



Dr. White said:


> By that logic before Naruto activates KCM Mode Itachi grabs him and forces a glare at Tsukuyomi GG.


because activating KCM takes any time, because Naruto doesn't coutner-blitz itachi's face off with a flash shunshin, because Itachi can blitz KCM Naruto.  

Goodness gracious, if you have to misrepresent the opposition this badly in order to formulate something that looks like an argument, it's basically concessionary.



Dr. White said:


> Hell this example I used to try and show a far fetched one isn't even far off as Itachi was able to get Kabuto to fall for clone right in front him, despite his SM sensing.




and once again, lets forget that that Kabuto was dealing with edo itachi in addition to an EMS user, and had an arrow in his snake.  If you are going to use a feat as part of your argument, include ALL THE DETAILS of that feat.
Intentionally ignoring the details of feats in order to suit your agenda is basically concessionary, since it means you wouldn't be able to formulate an argument without manipulating the feat.

Finally, the "it's not IC argument" is ridiculous since if Naruto, or any character had a single jutsu that would give them the best shot at winning a fight, they would use it especially since he knows susanoo is a uber defense, and knows that you increase your numbers when fighting the sharingan.

Braddah, debate honestly please.


----------



## Rain (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm sure Final Susano'o with Yata can take a few FRS and even redirect them at Naruto.

Also dodging Amaterasu won't be easy even for Naruto. Ei dodged it because he saw blood in Sasuke's eyes, but that won't work against Itachi because of Tsukuyomi.

Itachi can also surround himself with Ameterasu, send a clone at Naruto, bait him into attacking clone and snipe him with Amaterasu/Tsukuyomi/Yasaka Magatama.

Even if Naruto somehow destroys Susano'o, Itachi can re-materialize it in an instant.

*Vote: Itachi - Mid/High difficulty*


----------



## Nikushimi (Jan 29, 2013)

If Edo Itachi just keeps Susano'o up the entire fight, I'm not sure KCM Naruto will even be able to kill him once. FRS doesn't really have the power to breach the Jutsu, and I'm not sure Naruto can use enough of them simultaneously to pull it off.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2013)

Nikushimi said:


> If Edo Itachi just keeps Susano'o up the entire fight, I'm not sure KCM Naruto will even be able to kill him once. FRS doesn't really have the power to breach the Jutsu, and I'm not sure Naruto can use enough of them simultaneously to pull it off.



You don't think 13 simultaneous (or just used at very close intervals) would be enough then? 

Interesting...


----------



## Pirao (Jan 29, 2013)

Always funny when people say Edo Itachi owned KCM Naruto, disregarding that it was a 7% power Naruto that couldn't use clones. 13 KCM clones = GG.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Lol, telling me to debate honestly? Ill be responding afterschool



yeah, my bad, i should really stop telling people that because it's a pretty arrogant thing to say.

And don't worry about the giogio's, cuz i don't know where that came from.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2013)

> ueharakk said:
> 
> 
> > :
> ...


Here one of Danzo powerful wind jutsu's falls near null to regular Susano. Then after seeing this Danzo brings out to Baku to essentially create a vaccum around Susano. This ceases movement from the user, gradually dissembles susano as you can clearly see in this panel(parts of the susano are being Sucked up. This is why it takes danzo several vacuum shots to open up the slightest entrance for him to enter Susano. This is indicative of Danzo working around its durability as you saw by the jutsu doing nothing more than susano then dispersing a door sized hole.





> I'm pretty darn sure my explanations have been VERY good.


Sorry to say they won't suffice. You still haven't explained why Naruto doesn't spam clones in 1v1 battles, as I cited almost all his fights with the ability to make mass clones, and more notably his last 3 battles against Madara, Nagato, and Tobi in which he ha KCM/BM to due so.





> brotherin, itachi's cloak was blown off of him and he was on the ground for pages.  And what does this have anything to do with the fact that Susanoo was completely vaporized by kirin?


Kirin dissasemlbed Itachi's Susano, yes I admit as much but Itachi once again was left reletively unharmed from the blast. This same blast that eradicated the mountain sized hill they were on, did no external or serious internal damage to Itachi short of making him use Susano stage 4. I see Kirin and FRS as parallels so I doubt even if Naruto lands it, that it would put out Itachi. I don't believe Naruto's clones can make FRS, as he needed clones himself for much of the manga to make even rasengan. Naruto literally only did this once, in Sage mode vs Kyyubi in tha weird dimension. This doesn't give us leeway to make it an IC habit used in every match again with different modes as well. Once agin by that logic 1000 BM Naruto clones aiding the alliance, and using FRS/ Kyuubi Chakra boost would be great right now, but do you see Naruto doing such?








> Naruto's a sensor and has the best reactions in the manga...


-I have yet to see a sensor be able to differentiate clones from living human beings. Naruto senses intent, that is great for differentiating a zetsu impersonating someone he is not, but Itachi clones won't share this problem. Itachi also shares some of the best reaction feats in this manga,as well I don't see the point. Itachi's Intelligence ? Naruto's I don't see how his reactions save him from being outdone strategically. 




> he needed shisui's eye to genjutsu naruto back in the fuuton arc, Naruto has complete knowledge on his genjutsus and he will be facing way more than 1 naruto.


-No he didn't...What are you talking about? He used Ephemeral to easily genjutsu Naruto, and then implanted Kotoamtsuki inside Naruto...Had he used the eye, it wouldn't have been activated until Naruto was 26...meaning no edo Itachi. Other than that I have no Idea of what you're conceiving as Itachi had MS and some of the best genjutsu feats in pt. 2 so why would he need Shisui's base 3 tomoe?

-Clones can be arbitrarily met with MS jutsu, and clones of Itachi's own. This isn;t him alive, so he doesn't have to fuss over chakra and be over conservative(more so than his fighting style already is_) meaning Amaterasu and Susano will be up for most of this fight. Once again we still haven't gotten over this major wall between us. I don't believe Naruto can fight with 13 FRS throwing clones just or nearly as strong with him. If I though he could do that I would give KCM Naruto the win against anyone < EMS Madara level easy no contest. His feats don't suggest the usage you are thinking of and the author's portrayal was certaintly not so even when in direct comparison with Itachi. 



> which would do noting considering what it did to kakashi and RM Naruto's tanking feats.


-Considering kakashi saved Kurenai's life? We don't know how they escaped but we know they did. This blast radius is nothing to scoff at especially considering that the blast encompassed all that above water. The blast went at least 7 times higher than Itachi meaning the explosion was great enough to make that patch of water rise about 50 ft. No charactar short of SM Kabuto, and Edo's are taking this directly and brushing it off.




> it doesn't matter if he can't differentiate between clones, you don't need to differentiate between clones in order to null bunshin feints.


Yes you do when they can explode/Genjutsu you. 






> brother read the freekin OP.  This is NOT the naruto that fought Edo nagato and Itachi, the manga made it explicit in showing why Naruto can't make clones in his fights.  Geez louise, debate honestly.


-Don't assume I am just ignoring evidence, I have no clue what scene you're talking about. If you provide the scan to back your argument I will hapily accept the point, but I don't recall the manga saying anything about KCM Naruto being restricted, or gimped in any way vs Nagato, tobi , or Madara.



> because activating KCM takes any time, because Naruto doesn't coutner-blitz itachi's face off with a flash shunshin, because Itachi can blitz KCM Naruto.


-It doesn't one doesn't go from base to any mode without some sort of transition. Naruto was already in KCM mode when he met up with Itachi, if he starts base he has to go into said mode.




> and once again, lets forget that that Kabuto was dealing with edo itachi in addition to an EMS user, and had an arrow in his snake.  If you are going to use a feat as part of your argument, include ALL THE DETAILS of that feat.
> Intentionally ignoring the details of feats in order to suit your agenda is basically concessionary, since it means you wouldn't be able to formulate an argument without manipulating the feat.


Itachi fake blitzes Kabuto in which Kabuto stabs, the clone feint works(on a sensor) and Itachi is fast enough to maneuver the sword from Kabuto change position and cut him non lethally before he could react. Kabuto's tail is free as soon as he stabs Itachi also. Then he stopped Kabuto from blitzing with his chakra scalpel with Sasuke's sword. Two feats showing he was on that level.

Fin





> ally, the "it's not IC argument" is ridiculous since if Naruto, or any character had a single jutsu that would give them the best shot at winning a fight, they would use it especially since he knows susanoo is a uber defense, and knows that you increase your numbers when fighting the sharingan.


-You can't just say whoever has the best skillset wins, because that is a lie. You can't throw out factors like Jutsu efficiency, Intelligence, Experience, insight , etc. Not to mention the fact that Itachi as well as 3 moves that could end Naruto(all Ms jutsu) and plenty of other moves to supplement their usage. So it goes both ways. Itachi knows Naruto has shadow clone jutsu, and rasengan variants so he isn't gonna let him sit back and make clones all day. Factoring in Itachi's much better mental feats, and it takes the cake IMO.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Here one of Danzo powerful wind jutsu's falls near null to regular Susano.


because susanoo blocked it with its shield.... don't make me bring out the giogios again.



Dr. White said:


> Then after seeing this Danzo brings out to Baku to essentially create a vaccum around Susano. This ceases movement from the user, gradually dissembles susano as you can clearly see in this panel(parts of the susano are being Sucked up.


parts of the susanoo wasn't getting sucked up.  Susanoo regularly emits flames, the only parts of susanoo that were going with the current were those flames.



Dr. White said:


> This is why it takes danzo several vacuum shots to open up the slightest entrance for him to enter Susano. This is indicative of Danzo working around its durability as you saw by the jutsu doing nothing more than susano then dispersing a door sized hole.


It was 1 fuuton used on the actual susanoo, not on the shield, and powered up by baku's suction.  The suction itself didn't damage susanoo, and it was a singular fuuton.  If you want to call it multiple that's fine, but it's still not on the same tier as FRS.





Dr. White said:


> Sorry to say they won't suffice. You still haven't explained why Naruto doesn't spam clones in 1v1 battles, as I cited almost all his fights with the ability to make mass clones, and more notably his last 3 battles against Madara, Nagato, and Tobi in which he ha KCM/BM to due so.


okay you forced me to do it.



did you not read my posts about how Naruto didn't have the ability to make clones against Nagato or Tobi?  The very fact that gyuuki explicitly tells naruto he shouldn't make clones.  And then the fact that naruto divides his chakra into 13 clones he shouldn't make?  Naruto had no ability to make any clones in those fights.  

And like I explained above, Madara's fight was offpaneled until Madara used the wood dragon and naruto opted to wrestle it with BM, and right after that happens, Juubi revives.

We can do this for his earlier part 2 fights as well,
- against Kakuzu, could only use 3 FRS and entered the battle already tired so he had to be conservative about the clones he uses
- against Pein, couldn't make more than 3 since it would disturb the others, but once all his clone batteries were gone, what does he do?  Spam the kagebunshin
- against Kurama, since he doesn't have a limit on SM, he spams the kagebunshin
- against Ei, instead of flash shunshining around him what's the first thing on naruto's mind?  Spam kagebunshin




Dr. White said:


> Kirin dissasemlbed Itachi's Susano, yes I admit as much but Itachi once again was left reletively unharmed from the blast. This same blast that eradicated the mountain sized hill they were on, did no external or serious internal damage to Itachi short of making him use Susano stage 4.


well, my argument was only that kirin busted the susanoo..



Dr. White said:


> I see Kirin and FRS as parallels so I doubt even if Naruto lands it, that it would put out Itachi.


I highly HIGHLY doubt a single FRS even to the back of LVL4 susanoo is even reaching itachi let alone taking him out.



Dr. White said:


> *I don't believe Naruto's clones can make FRS*, as he needed clones himself for much of the manga to make even rasengan. Naruto literally only did this once, in Sage mode vs Kyyubi in tha weird dimension. This doesn't give us leeway to make it an IC habit used in every match again with different modes as well.



bro, you are forcing me to do this.  



clone creates FRS on his own
same clone makes FRS while in SM
Same clone almost makes TBB (but fails because naruto doesn't have 8:2 ratio yet)
another clone makes FRS on its own

another clone makes FRS on its own



Dr. White said:


> Once agin by that logic 1000 BM Naruto clones aiding the alliance, and using FRS/ Kyuubi Chakra boost would be great right now, but do you see Naruto doing such?



Please brotherin, don't attempt to extrapolate my stance to ridiculous heights in order to make it seem that I am arguing the unreasonable.  Naruto has made a max of 3 BM clones, that's his max while in BM.  

I grant him the exact same limits for KCM, despite him spamming KCM for half a day and running around with Ei, he has only showed a max of 13 KCM bunshins so all he gets is 13+.  That's what keeps naruto in check with his new modes: unlike with SM and base, he has limits on the amount of clones he can make. 




Dr. White said:


> -I have yet to see a sensor be able to differentiate clones from living human beings. Naruto senses intent, that is great for differentiating a zetsu impersonating someone he is not, but Itachi clones won't share this problem. Itachi also shares some of the best reaction feats in this manga,as well I don't see the point. Itachi's Intelligence ? Naruto's I don't see how his reactions save him from being outdone strategically.


there's hardly going to be any strategy when itachi is going to be camping in susanoo in order to not die from redirected FRS or flash shunshin blitz.

And the sensor doesn't have to be able to differentiate clones from living humans, they only have to sense 2 sources of malice in order to decipher that a bunshin feint is being attempted.  Naruto does just that when itachi tries that on him and bee.

And itachi's reactions are irrelevant since I bring up naruto's reactions and sensing to explain how kawarimi isn't going to work on him.  If his reactions are too great, then he sees itachi switch, if he's a sensor, then he senses 2 sources of malice.




Dr. White said:


> -No he didn't...What are you talking about? He used Ephemeral to easily genjutsu Naruto, and then implanted Kotoamtsuki inside Naruto...Had he used the eye, it wouldn't have been activated until Naruto was 26...meaning no edo Itachi. Other than that I have no Idea of what you're conceiving as Itachi had MS and some of the best genjutsu feats in pt. 2 so why would he need Shisui's base 3 tomoe?


It was clearly shisui's eye, it was the exact same crow that itachi stuffed into naruto's throat and the same crow that came out of it with a sharingan.  It just wasn't shisui's MS genjutsu.  And itachi may have the best genjutsu feats, but that's only after he gets his opponents into genjutsu.  He needed the bird in order to get naruto into the genjutsu since naruto was experience at fighting a sharingan user and had experience dealing with itachi's genjutsu.



Dr. White said:


> -Clones can be arbitrarily met with MS jutsu, and clones of Itachi's own.
> This isn;t him alive, so he doesn't have to fuss over chakra and be over conservative(more so than his fighting style already is_) meaning Amaterasu and Susano will be up for most of this fight.




how many clones can itachi make at a single time? 
how does his one clone compare to a KCM clone?  
I've already factored in amaterasu being used without regret and a lvl4 susanoo being spammed throughout the fight.

If he focuses on one clone for amaterasu, the other 12 end him with redirected FRS.

IF he uses a lvl4 susanoo he gets hit from all sides by waves of 13 FRS.

and he can't use amaterasu while in any susanoo above skeletal which is the reason madara has to open his ribcage in order to fire his katons.


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Once again we still haven't gotten over this major wall between us. I don't believe Naruto can fight with 13 FRS throwing clones just or nearly as strong with him. If I though he could do that I would give KCM Naruto the win against anyone < EMS Madara level easy no contest. His feats don't suggest the usage you are thinking of and the author's portrayal was certaintly not so even when in direct comparison with Itachi.


why don't his feats suggest that?  Did you see the capabilities of one of his KCM clones when it fought Sandaime raikage?  Has enough chakra to spam KCM to use FRS like nothing and even create a bijuurasengan.  That's enough to spam FRS.

I have met all you arguments about him not using it on nagato, Tobi and Madara with strait up knockdowns and most people who debate in the battledome already knew the reasons why he couldn't make clones against them, which is why the giogio's appeared.

So we've seen that even after spamming KCM for half a day, he is able to make 13 clones, all with the same capabilities of the one that fought sandaime raikage.  By portrayal that clone is even greater than oonoki or gaara, as he went on to take on sandaime by himself while he left trollkage to the both of them.  Even after the clone lost KCM, he still was fighting at kage level as it was his combination attack with oonoki and gaara that forced madara into Rinnegan.  After that, what did rubber dude say about the clone?  that even in base, it was the most valuable member in division, and naruto's clone still thought he could make a big difference which is why he asked tsunade to let him fight madara.

All of that is just one clone.  Naruto made 13 of those.  By portrayal, that's 13 kage level ninja + KCM Naruto.  But I know the portrayal argument isn't that good in the battledome which is why I go by feats.  and even by the feats argument, the clones are kage level, and naruto is correctly placed.



Dr. White said:


> -Considering kakashi saved Kurenai's life? We don't know how they escaped but we know they did.


yes we do, he took the explosion to the back.  And the fact that he was able to save kurenai's life while just being barely scathed by that explosion shows how dangerous it is.



Dr. White said:


> This blast radius is nothing to scoff at especially considering that the blast encompassed all that above water. The blast went at least 7 times higher than Itachi meaning the explosion was great enough to make that patch of water rise about 50 ft. No charactar short of SM Kabuto, and Edo's are taking this directly and brushing it off.


really?  do you know just how weak explosions are compared to characters with significant durability?  As a toddler, gaara's shield casually blocked a roof-sized explosion, while CE sasuke penetrates gaara's prepped sand shiled with a chidori, and when you flashforward to part 2 characters like bee can take a Taka Sasuke chidori to the pancreus and come out pretty unharmed.  CSlvl2 Sasuke blocked C2 with just his wing.  Sakura survived igniting an explosive tag in her face, deidara tanked tons of more firepower than itachi's bunshin throughout the course of his fight.  And then we have KCM Naruto who has yet to even be harmed by a blunt-force attack.

He takes one of the hardest physical hits in the manga to the jaw and comes out unscathed.  He takes an attack that ripped orochimaru in half to the face and doesn't care.

His clones take tree-busting hits and complain about being tired, and block attacks that would cut right through kakashi's arm while smiling for the camera.

So no, considering how weak actual explosions are compared to normal ninjas and that KCM Naruto is second to Sandaime raikage in the durability department, no, that explosion isn't doing crap to him.




Dr. White said:


> Yes you do when they can explode/Genjutsu you.


explosions aren't doing anything as proven above, and genjutsu doesn't work on clones and itachi needed a distraction to get fuuton arc base naruto into a genjutsu.  Oh and itachi can make 1 clone, that's gets easily popped by a KCM clone due to feats.






Dr. White said:


> -Don't assume I am just ignoring evidence, I have no clue what scene you're talking about. If you provide the scan to back your argument I will hapily accept the point, but I don't recall the manga saying anything about KCM Naruto being restricted, or gimped in any way vs Nagato, tobi , or Madara.


When does Naruto make 13 KCM Bunshins?  In chapter 545.  What was naruto doing before he made the bunshins?  Spamming KCM for an entire night and morning.  So his already squandered supply of KCM chakra is now split into 13 since chapter 545.  That means he has less than 7% of his chakra after that chapter.  Since then he continues to stay in KCM, which again eats up chakra, and then confronts nagato and itachi.  At that point, he can't use kagebunshins since his chakra is split so many ways, rectified by the fact that before he split his chakra, he was more than willing to use it against Ei in order to just get around him.  And just for the hell of it, after the nagato fight, kishi makes naruto show the readers what would happen if he tries to make just one KCM bunshin.

From then, naruto continues to spam KCM while opperating with less than 7% of his chakra and not being able to make KCM clones.  When he enters the Tobi fight, he is so low on KCM chakra that in the middle of the fight, he actually loses the form a couple of times.

So there, conclusive proof that he couldn't have used clones against Tobi or Nagato.

Against Madara, he only started getting serious once the fight came back on panel, and shortly after, the juubi was there.



Dr. White said:


> -It doesn't one doesn't go from base to any mode without some sort of transition. Naruto was already in KCM mode when he met up with Itachi, if he starts base he has to go into said mode.


like I said, entering KCM is basically instant.  One panel he's just base naruto, next panel he's super saiyan. he's show the instant change from after he defeated that magnet user, to holding roshi's jaw open, to holding roshi's hand open, to his fight with obito.  

And even if this was base naruto vs itachi, itachi isn't blitzing from 50 meters before naruto can make a handseal.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi fake blitzes Kabuto in which Kabuto stabs, the clone feint works(on a sensor) and Itachi is fast enough to maneuver the sword from Kabuto change position and cut him non lethally before he could react. Kabuto's tail is free as soon as he stabs Itachi also. Then he stopped Kabuto from blitzing with his chakra scalpel with Sasuke's sword. Two feats showing he was on that level.


Yet without Sasuke's arrow to make kabuto go and grab the sword, and Itachi doesn't bunshin feint him.  and stopping kabuto from blitzing is irrelevant.



Dr. White said:


> Fin
> -You can't just say whoever has the best skillset wins, because that is a lie. You can't throw out factors like Jutsu efficiency, Intelligence, Experience, insight , etc.


yet we see that against Naruto people with even more experience and more efficiency than itachi get trolled. It's far more of a lie to just say "Itachi is more efficient, intelligent and experienced than naruto" and then turn that into as big of a powerup for itachi as you decide it to be.  



Dr. White said:


> Not to mention the fact that Itachi as well as 3 moves that could end Naruto(all Ms jutsu) and plenty of other moves to supplement their usage.


all of which I have taken into account.



Dr. White said:


> So it goes both ways. Itachi knows Naruto has shadow clone jutsu, and rasengan variants so he isn't gonna let him sit back and make clones all day. Factoring in Itachi's much better mental feats, and it takes the cake IMO.


But you see, you don't even go into how itachi's abilities stack up to naruto's.  It's just pure hype: "itachi knows naruto has shadow clone jutsu" "itachi knows naruto has rasengan variants" "itachi isn't going to let him sit bakc and make clones all day"  You say this but what argument do you put to back this up?  Nothing! absolutely nothing!  Whereas I show Naruto's canonical counters for all of Itachi's big moves and strategies that you have conceived he can do.

That's the difference, one of us generalizes and doesn't dive into details and will just jab in statements like "itachi is smarter, itachi knows about this" while the other actually goes in and factors how itachi abilities would stack up to naruto's what counter naruto has for itachi and vice versa.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2013)

I'm much to high and tired right now to go back and forth, and to be honest you have called my card on good number of points. My only real contention remains that Itachi has good enough jutsu((coupled with better intelligence feats, which kishi showed the value of in the Nagato fight/Kabuto fight) to put down Naruto with a successful strategy/hit. I don't think Naruto would IC create the amount of clones you are saying he would, and wouldn't be as deadly as you are trying to make him out to be. Although I must admit I no longer believe Healthy Itachi to be > KCM Naruto/ Im giving this to Edo Itachi Extreme diff 6/10 times. 

I still need better evidence of IC Naruto on your side for me to conclude he would use such a large amount of powerful clones for a 1v1 situation. As Naruto gained a chakra boost in BM Mode, and still has yet to try a thing, amongst other things.

Also KCM Mode lets Naruto tap his chakra supply so I don't buy him being overly tired in the Nagato/Tobi fights


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> I'm much to high and tired right now to go back and forth, and to be honest you have called my card on good number of points. My only real contention remains that Itachi has good enough jutsu((coupled with better intelligence feats, which kishi showed the value of in the Nagato fight/Kabuto fight) to put down Naruto with a successful strategy/hit. I don't think Naruto would IC create the amount of clones you are saying he would, and wouldn't be as deadly as you are trying to make him out to be. Although I must admit I no longer believe Healthy Itachi to be > KCM Naruto/ Im giving this to Edo Itachi Extreme diff 6/10 times.


 I think im perfectly fine with this.  The manga is subjective so how much we view itachi's intelligence factors into the battle can differ greatly while still having pretty sound arguments, and so if that's the ace that pushes this in itachi's favor, then cool.  
I just wanted to make sure the arguments that were not up to subjectivity like the one's where I put giogios were well represented.



Dr. White said:


> I still need better evidence of IC Naruto on your side for me to conclude he would use such a large amount of powerful clones for a 1v1 situation. As Naruto gained a chakra boost in BM Mode, and still has yet to try a thing, amongst other things.


I have arguments for this point that I haven't brought up in the debate, but I doubt either of us would want to drag this out any longer.




Dr. White said:


> Also KCM Mode lets Naruto tap his chakra supply so I don't buy him being overly tired in the Nagato/Tobi fights


Now remember the point wasn't if naruto was tired or not, it was if he was able to make KCM clones, and 12 of them at that, and he can't do that with his base chakra.  So in the nagato fight, he wasn't tired, but his KCM supply was drained to the point where he couldn't make another KCM clone.

In the Tobi fight, he exhausts both supplies to the point where he actually is very tired.  Tobi remarks on his fatigue and he's very tired when he says bye to Goku.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2013)

> ueharakk said:
> 
> 
> > I think im perfectly fine with this.  The manga is subjective so how much we view itachi's intelligence factors into the battle can differ greatly while still having pretty sound arguments, and so if that's the ace that pushes this in itachi's favor, then cool.
> ...


----------



## ueharakk (Jan 29, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> > I think this is a that I intrinsically want to point out but never formulate in my post. I can understand why some people view Itachi as not much more than MS Sasuke level, but to me Itachi's character is what makes him deadly.
> 
> 
> sure i can agree with that.  I always thought healthy itachi is above MS Sasuke.
> ...


----------



## Orochimaru800 (Feb 1, 2013)

so many giogios...

anyway, nardo probably wins via his high level clones.


----------



## Six (Feb 1, 2013)

Panther said:


> ^
> 
> Naruto isn't running out of RM considering he was for almost 2 day's in that mode. Amaterasu gets dodged with shunshin and Tsukuyomi gets countered by RM clone spamm.



Just like how he spammed the clones when Itachi pulled out his ms against him and bee right? Clones don't mean shit because Itachi tortures you in a second, while they're coming up with a strategy the jutsu will be over. Why do you think Asuma said that Kakashi didn't even finish his sentence yet was on the ground next second.


----------



## Panther (Feb 2, 2013)

Surgeon Of Death said:


> Just like how he spammed the clones when Itachi pulled out his ms against him and bee right? Clones don't mean shit because Itachi tortures you in a second, while they're coming up with a strategy the jutsu will be over. Why do you think Asuma said that Kakashi didn't even finish his sentence yet was on the ground next second.


  The RM Naruto that faced Edo Itachi had only 7% of his chakra because he already made 15 RM clones and send them towards different battlefields before he and Bee confronted Itachi and Nagato. RM Naruto couldn't make RM clones against Itachi even if he wanted to, because he was so low on RM chakra that he even lost his RM cloack when he tried to make one RM clone right after Nagato was sealed.

This is fresh RM Naruto which doesn't have to worry about Kurama draining his chakra and can make 15 RM clones to aid him instead of sending them towards different battlefields like he did in cannon. itachi in order to hit Naruto with Tsukuyomi he would first need to distinguish the real Naruto from the other RM clones and then have eye contact with the real one which is not gonna happen.


----------



## Raiken (Feb 6, 2013)

If Itachi wasn't an Edo. I'd place my bets on Naruto.


----------



## ZE (Feb 6, 2013)

Dr. White said:


> Also KCM Mode lets Naruto tap his chakra supply so I don't buy him being overly tired in the Nagato/Tobi fights



After Nagato gets sealed, Naruto tries to make some kage bushins:

Result: 


He could no longer maintain KCM. 

What more do you need? Naruto couldn't use kage bushins at that point. This was when Kurama was still eating his chakra like crazy.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> After Nagato gets sealed, Naruto tries to make some kage bushins:
> 
> Result:
> 
> ...



That actually proves Dr.whites point, naruto though he could make clones, if he knew he was out of chakra he wouldn't have tried it on that panel.


Which means in ic he opted not to make them.


I'm more at the opinion naruto would rather conserve chakra and use a shushin to dodge amatarasu, and use sensing to counter tsukiomi.


----------



## Kamikorosu (Feb 7, 2013)

Itachi wins easily, it's stated in the manga.

and with Dat brain he can solo what he want...

Like always, he soloes this like a boss


----------



## ZE (Feb 7, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> That actually proves Dr.whites point, naruto though he could make clones, if he knew he was out of chakra he wouldn't have tried it on that panel.
> 
> 
> Which means in ic he opted not to make them.


So you want me to believe that, just because he didn’t use kage bushind in one of the many fights he was involved in, Naruto would never use kage bushins ever again? Then, remove the jutsu from Naruto’s arsenal here in the battledome and we’re set. From now on Naruto can’t use kage bushins because in one of thirty fights he doesn’t use kage bushins.




> I'm more at the opinion naruto would rather conserve chakra and use a shushin to dodge amatarasu, and use sensing to counter tsukiomi.


Since when did Naruto worry about his chakra reserves in a fight? You'll never see him thinking that he shouldn't use this or that to conserve chakra. That's not his fighting style.


This is not a Naruto low on chakra and with kage bushin restricted vs Itachi. That's not the match up.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> So you want me to believe that, just because he didn?t use kage bushind in one of the many fights he was involved in, Naruto would never use kage bushins ever again? Then, remove the jutsu from Naruto?s arsenal here in the battledome and we?re set. From now on Naruto can?t use kage bushins because in one of thirty fights he doesn?t use kage bushins.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



What I'm saying is naruto is a Hell of a lot stronger now, he doesnt need clones to hold his own against itachi, when ppl attain new powers there ic fighting style becomes completely different, note taka sasuke then note any previous version of sasuke.


No need for sarcasm just because someone has a different opinion then you.





Since all his moves become cost more chakra. He doesn't fight completley conservative , but he doesn't spam like he did back before he had sm.


----------



## ZE (Feb 7, 2013)

The Naruto you're talking about isn't the Naruto we all know. Need I remind you that as soon as he entered the war the first thing he did was mass kage bushins and scattered them all throughout the battlefields? And he did that despite Bee's warning that doing so would consume most of his chakra and kill him.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> The Naruto you're talking about isn't the Naruto we all know. Need I remind you that as soon as he entered the war the first thing he did was mass kage bushins and scattered them all throughout the battlefields? And he did that despite Bee's warning that doing so would consume most of his chakra and kill him.



Because he had to help out and the locations where all over the place, I still don't see how that equates to naruto using a bunch of clones against one opponent.


----------



## ZE (Feb 7, 2013)

Naruto not using clones in a one on one fight? 
What the fuck am I reading?


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> Naruto not using clones in a one on one fight?
> What the fuck am I reading?



Nice try, way to take my point out of context.



Naruto hasn't spam clones since he attained his sm, against nagato, he didnt spam clones, only when he was in his base form, against itachi and nagato he didn't spam clones in his kcm form, and against madara and obito he didn't spam clones in both his kcm and bm form.


Point is when naruto is out his base form, he doesn't spam clones. 

If you wanna have a debate atleast try to understand the context of my post before you respond.


----------



## ZE (Feb 7, 2013)

In the war he spammed clones.
Against Madara, he spammed clones – before that, he couldn’t because the Kyuubi was eating his chakra. 
Against the jinchuurikis, he spammed clones. He made at least 30 of them. 6 to take the bijuus out and then 30 to gag Son Goku. 
He didn’t spam clones, but he did use more than three against Madara and Obito. So he’s gonna at least use one minimum. 
He then he used one when he was fighting the Jyuubi. So I ask you again, from where did you take the made up notion that Naruto wouldn’t use clones against Itachi? 

Once again I’ll say, that’s not Naruto. That’s an entirely different character. It’s like saying Itachi isn’t gonna use genjutsu. Just stop dude.


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 7, 2013)

ZE said:


> In the war he spammed clones.
> Against Madara, he spammed clones – before that, he couldn’t because the Kyuubi was eating his chakra.
> Against the jinchuurikis, he spammed clones. He made at least 30 of them. 6 to take the bijuus out and then 30 to gag Son Goku.
> He didn’t spam clones, but he did use more than three against Madara and Obito. So he’s gonna at least use one minimum.
> ...



Making clones to help in a war doesn't = making clones in a one vs one fight.

What form was he in when he spammed clones against madara? And could you provide scans?

Against the jinchuriki he was outnumbered.


One clone doesn't = spamming


As I stated before naruto won't randomly spam clones in kcm against itachi, its a waste of chakra and simply put he doesn't need it, he may use one or two at a time but he won't SPAM them which is my point.


----------



## ZE (Feb 7, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Making clones to help in a war doesn't = making clones in a one vs one fight.
> 
> What form was he in when he spammed clones against madara? And could you provide scans?
> 
> ...


Uchiha Madara. 
Naruto’s clone usage.
Two here:
Gaara would have died
And this was a clone using clones. 

10000 clones, go ahead and count them:
Gaara would have died


It's a waste of chakra? To anyone other than Naruto, maybe. But Naruto worrying himself with such a thing? That's not Naruto. 

Also, explain this to me:


----------



## Bkprince33 (Feb 8, 2013)

ZE said:


> Uchiha Madara.
> Naruto?s clone usage.
> Two here:
> armbars.
> ...



Two clones doesn't =  spamming I already said he would make one or two clones.


He made those thousand clones in base, as I stated before he only clone spams in base.


He made that statement before he attained sm, as I stated countless times naruto only spams clones in base form, in his higher forms he doesn't spam clones.


----------



## ZE (Feb 8, 2013)

SM Naruto used clones vs Pain. He could even say SM Naruto spammed kage bushin no jutsu in that fight. 

Naruto spammed clones in KCM as soon as he entered the war.
Then, he couldn't spam them because the kyuubi was eating his chakra.

Then he spammed clones against the bijuus as soon as the Kyuubi agreed to help him.
He used at least 6 against the bijuus. 

Then, he had to fight Obito, and in that fight he made at least one kage bushin, and that after hours of fighting in the frontlines.

Madara arrives and he makes more kage bushins. 
The first one gets defeated by Madara's fan. 

Now, in the current fight, what did Naruto do?
He spams more kage bushins, this time in bijuu mode. 


So with all this, how come you concluded this:
"I'm more at the opinion naruto would rather conserve chakra and use a shushin to dodge amatarasu, and use sensing to counter tsukiomi."

Here you're giving the impression Naruto won't use kage bushins (which is totally out of character) vs Itachi. That would be the first time ever that an unrestricted Naruto wouldn't use kage bushins. 

He knows how to fight the sharingan.
He knows that amateratsu is dangerous. 
He spams kage bushins in practically all of his fights. And the only fight he didn't do that was when he couldn't. 

It's more than obvious kage bushin would be used. If it didnt, it would contradict his knowledge, experience and fighting style. It wouldn't be Naruto anymore.


----------



## Larcher (Feb 9, 2013)

Itachi is a very bad match up as Naruto hasn't really got a sealing technique but like someone else stated he could summon the two toads and put him under that genjutsu which could be almost as formidable as izanami and even if that won't work he could have Brang one of those sealing sheat things and the tagg that got used against 3rd raikage use shadow clones and seal him up high diff.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Feb 12, 2013)

Edo Itachi can likely indefinitely put up Susano. So it comes down to Naruto being able to get around it somehow. 13+ FRS's? Think that would kill Itachi many times over giving Naruto the win. Or Frog Song. Or Kyuubi chakra arm under Susano to pierce Itachi with a blindside. Amaterasu can potentially be avoided and would still only have a 1 in 13 chance of hitting. Tsukiyomi is the same.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 12, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Nice try, way to take my point out of context.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



all of this is irrelevant since the manga EXPLICITLY explains why he can't spam clones while in those modes during those fights.

*Against Pain*, can't spam clones because of sage clone batteries.

And what happens the moment his batteries are gone?  Spams 50 clones while in sage mode and disguises them as rocks.

Next, *while fighting kurama*, since the clone limit doesn't apply what does SM Naruto do?  Spams clones.

In KCM, once again, the manga EXPLICITLY EXPLAINS why he can't spam clones.

Then on top of that, Naruto STILL spams clones and is more than happy to use them just to get around Ei.

So *then he confronts Nagato* with only 7% of his KCM chakra while his normal chakra is being drained at 13x the normal rate after spamming clones, and you are actually arguing that Naruto not using clones means it's not IC for him to use them with 100% of his chakra?  It gets even worse for you since Kishi even takes it upon himself to show us what would happen if naruto tried to make a KCM clone to fight nagato with.

So obviously from that point till his BM, he wouldn't have been able to even make 1 KCM clone since his KCM chakra keeps decreasing.

Next, while in BM, he had no reason to spam clones since he and bee alone were beating the other bijuu's at their strongest, and thus he only used the clones to pull out stakes.

Next we have *KCM Naruto vs Tobi *where Naruto was very low on KCM chakra.  Why you might ask?  Well, because until chapter 592, he didn't even have enough chakra to enter KCM.  This is further backed up by the fact that he constantly exits KCM during the Tobi fight  in order to conserve chakra, something he never even did during the breaks against Nagato.

Then when Naruto enters BM, clones aren't needed since he just uses Kakashi's strategy and isn't even trying to kill Obito.

Finally, *when Madara arrives,* the entire fight is off-paneled, and when both combatants do get serious, the fight lasts for only a chapter and is interrupted by the juubi.

In addition to all of this, in his fights against Obito and Madara, Naruto has allies and thus him not using clones with the company of allies (even if he was at 100% chakra) does not make it IC for him not to use clones without allies (like in this thread).

In addition to even that, it was already explained during the kakuzu fight that naruto (unhindered by a clone cap) will use as many clones necessary to defeat his opponent as best as possible.  Thus if he easily beats itachi with 13, the only reason he wouldn't use 13 to beat itachi would be that he has an even better chance of beating itachi with less clones which means Naruto wins with less than or equal to difficulty.

So, don't ignore the manga.  In EVERY fight that naruto doesn't spam clones, he either is extremely low on chakra, is given an EXPLICITLY STATED cap on the amount of clones he can make, or has many allies which means in a 1 vs 1 match, it's irrelevant.  Thus, 1 vs 1 with his full KCM chakra supply, he does make 13 clones unless he knows a way to beat itachi with even less difficulty.


----------



## Rosencrantz (Feb 13, 2013)

Bkprince33 said:


> Naruto hasn't spam clones since he attained his sm, against nagato, he didnt spam clones, only when he was in his base form, against itachi and nagato he didn't spam clones in his kcm form, and against madara and obito he didn't spam clones in both his kcm and bm form.
> 
> 
> Point is when naruto is out his base form, he doesn't spam clones.
> ...


Naruto spammed clones in SM, RM, AND BM. You just don't know the manga.

surprise attack
SM.

surprise attack
RM.

surprise attack
BM.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Feb 13, 2013)

I think Naruto can pull off a win. He did well in a casual conversion-Taijutsu with Itachi. So I imagine slotting in some random Kyuubi arm attacks would probably get Itachi _at least_ once. 

After that I'm sure Itachi's going to go right into Susanoo, I don't see why he wouldn't given that he saw Naruto controlling the Kyuubi as a big deal.
However I'm on the notion that if Naruto uses his speed, FRS and its miniature variant well, he'll be able to overcome Susanoo and kill Itachi a number of times.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 13, 2013)

Concerning Naruto's clone usage:
*Spoiler*: __ 



It's hard to conclude with any certainty a battle between Itachi and Naruto would involve Naruto using _(spamming)_ clones. 

The author has never had Naruto take that route of tactics when in an altercation with Itachi in the past.

I don't deny Naruto has at many a time and against many an adversary spammed clones, but in character, against Itachi, it has not been a go-to move of Naruto's even when he has the ability to do it(I.E. not under SM or KCM clone restrictions).

I'd maintain if history were to repeat itself, Naruto would use clones against various enemies, but probably wouldn't spam them if his opponent was Itachi, because that has not, nor has ever has been a goto move Naruto takes against Itachi. 

Kishimoto usually has Naruto deal with Itachi in different manners that don't involve his clone spam, call it PIS if you will, but that is clearly the case if you reread Naruto's fights with Itachi and his fights with other people.




Regardless though, ignoring Naruto's IC tendencies of what he does and doesn't do against Itachi, of whom we have multiple occasions on which to compare _what he has actually done_ when pitted against Itachi in the past:


*Spoiler*: __ 



KCM Naruto and his (13) clones definitely don't have the speed to dodge Amaterasu, and may or may not have the speed to dodge the Totsuka no Tsurgi. Naruto(and clones) only possesses a speed capable of dodging those attacks[yellow flash speed] _inconsistently_, not whenever they want to. 

Naruto's normal speed(Around V1 Raikage level) is not sufficient for the deadlier elements of Itachi's arsenal. The Raikage thought as much when he immediately went V2 against Sasuke's mangekyou and refrained from staying V1 speed.

The thing that further compounds this issue is Naruto(and clones) cannot meet Itachi's gaze to know _when_ Amaterasu or a jab from the Totsuka no Tsurgi is coming. Naruto(and clones) won't be able to see and predict when attacks are coming the way V2 A was able to because of genjutsu. Unlike Sasuke, Itachi is proficient and uses it much more frequently. 

Genjutsu can't incapacitate clones, _but they still see_ whatever the genjutsu user wishes. We know this from Sarutobi's and Kakashi's clone interaction with genjutsu. This vulnerability can thus cause Naruto's clones to be misled into attacking comrades or themselves, or slowed down enough to create openings with the Totsuka no Tsurgi.

If the _real_ Naruto is caught in genjutsu that can spell the end of the fight due to things like Tsukiyomi. Any genjutsu can be layered over. If the real Naruto is caught in even a weak genjutsu, Itachi can use that time to layer a powerful Tsukiyomi over it. Or just attack with something else while he's dealing with/breaking the genjutsu.





The stamina difference:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi is capable of all this and more because he has unlimited chakra in this scenario mind you. Any Amaterasu usage should down one clone or the real naruto himself due to lack of speed. There's no guarantee they can dodge something as fast as the Totsuka no Tsurgi either. Itachi's tendency to be sneaky and surprise attack does not make things any easier either. Itachi makes a living feinting and tricking even SM sensors, after all.

Itachi has trickery and essentially line of sight blocking due to his prolific genjutsu use. He has an auto KO in Amaterasu and potential in Totsuka no Tsurgi, and he can use these indefinitely and without lowering his stamina because he is an Edo.

Naruto on the other hand has 13 KCM clones that he can't replenish. After that he has to use less powerful clone modes that are in all likelihood fodder to Susanoo-level speed. 

The real Naruto can still use SM which is Susanoo speed+ if he can prep it, but his non-SM clones will be fodder and Itachi won't tire throughout this match.



Concerning Susanoo's defense:

*Spoiler*: __ 



Naruto's most powerful attack is FRS. Itachi's Susanoo tanked _Kirin_, most likely in a lesser mode due to activation time delay between stabilizing. 

Lets put things into perspective for Kirin.

This is the structure Kirin destroyed[1][2].

The middle panel in this scan is a *much* closer view from an angle of the same structure.[3]

This is Kirin.

Now, we know Susanoo needs time to stabilize to its full form. We've seen this time and time again and Madara spelled it out for us.

This also explains why Itachi didn't have Totsuka no Tsurgi out when he first attacked Nagato. If you reread that fight you can see Itachi attacked Nagato while his Susanoo was still in the process of stabilizing and not yet equipped with the special items.

The point I'm trying to make is chances are Itachi's Susanoo doesn't even need its shield to tank FRS if its able to take an attack like Kirin to the body unshielded. 

Frontal assaults with FRS are probably completely voided altogether by the Yata no Kagami shield. 

I'm not sure if anyone really believes _Naruto_ can trick _Itachi_ into turning his back as multiple clones unload FRS at the same time. He doesn't have the intelligence feats to suggest he can, and chances are Itachi would be the one doing the tricking here.

KCM Naruto needs a _*miracle*_ to bust Itachi's Susanoo when you put the feats into perspective. Since Itachi is an Edo, he can theoretically stay within Susanoo the whole time. The OP said he has to _fatally_ wound Itachi multiple times.




To be blunt, KCM Naruto wounding Edo Itachi successfully 1 time is unlikely.

Concerning the numbers game:


*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi also has the ability to summon crows which possess sharingan. Itachi can also seal techniques into sharingan. He's pretty proficient and prolific in this fuinjutsu.

He can seal basic sharingan genjutsu into sharingans.(Against Naruto)
He can seal Mangekyou sharingan genjutsu into sharingans.(Against Sasuke)
He can seal Mangekyou sharingan ninjutu into sharingans.(Against Obito) 

These crows are similar to Itachi in that eye contact must be avoided with them due to genjutsu.

They can deliver Amaterasu in Itachi's stead as well.

And as we saw with Sasuke, they fly into your face and block line of sight, which is deadly if capitalized on by Itachi.


Because Edo Itachi has infinite stamina, this extra chakra expenditure won't be a concern for him. It's not like he can ever run out. Especially if he needs to get past the clones and to the real Naruto.

Naruto won't be the only one with support here; Itachi can have many crows flying around and providing him with support while he himself also battles.




Conclusion

*Spoiler*: __ 



Now, I don't see this being an "easy" battle for either party by any stretch of the imagination but I give Itachi a clear edge because of his infinite stamina and defensive abilities like Susanoo. 

Naruto only has so much juice before he runs out of KCM clones. Itachi can keep trucking and trucking and trucking and rematerialize Susanoo if its damaged.

Itachi can use Amaterasu repeatedly and swing the sword repeatedly. These attacks aren't easy to dodge because Itachi is a line of sight blocker and can also have crows which deliver surprise attacks and further block line of sight.

Unlike Itachi's attacks, which won't cost him anything because of infinite chakra, Naruto's clones _will_ tire and he has a finite number of the best ones.

This is assuming Naruto does spam clones, which he has never done while fighting Itachi in the first place. 

It doesn't make much difference though because the biggest issue for Naruto here is Susanoo and Itachi having infinite stamina to camp in it while slowly chipping away at Naruto.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 13, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> Concerning Naruto's clone usage:
> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> ...



reverse all of the "naruto hasn't spammed clones against itachi" logic, and now we have "itachi won't use MS techniques against Naruto" since throughout their confrontations, Itachi has never opted to use an MS technique on naruto while in control of himself.  

And therefore, KCM Naruto spanks itachi.

Then there's the whole BS about Itachi's susanoo TANKING kirin (which it didn't) while ignoring Susanoo's other feats like getting breached by a fuuton far weaker than a FRS.

And then for some reason Naruto has to have the intelligence to "trick" itachi in order for him to summon a couple of clones and have them throw FRS from different directions.

Then there's the disregard of the fact that Itachi can't use his upper levels of susanoo while using amaterasu and has to focus on his target, meaning he gets blitzed from a clone or the real while trying to hit a clone or the real.


So in conclusion, it's basically the same rehashed argument that has to massively gimp naruto, take away the weaknesses or details of itachi's jutsu usage, in addition to ignoring the numbers game (for example, when itachi attacks 1 naruto, apparently all the other ones just stand around doing nothing) and only taking the high-end feats of susanoo while ignoring the lower ones.


Once again, Naruto summons 13+ KCM bunsins.  What exactly can itachi do?  If he attacks one with amaterasu, the others end him.  It's the same thing for genjutsu. If he goes in susanoo, he's going to have to deal with waves of 14 guided FRS from different directions.  

Naruto's clone usage has gotten to the point where he will use the optimal amount of clones to get the job done.  So if he beats itachi with 13+ clones low diff, then the only reason he would use less clones is because it would be even easier for him to beat itachi.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 14, 2013)

> reverse all of the "naruto hasn't spammed clones against itachi" logic, and now we have "itachi won't use MS techniques against Naruto" since throughout their confrontations, Itachi has never opted to use an MS technique on naruto while in control of himself.
> 
> And therefore, KCM Naruto spanks itachi.


Itachi had no reason to use mangekyou on a target he had reasons to let live. Naruto also never got past getting caught in Itachi's first genjutsu attempt, hence Itachi never had to resort to it.

And without clones or MS Naruto'd probably get caught in genjutsu early like has happened in the past when he fights Itachi honestly. Unless this encounter would be different for some unforeseen reason.



> Then there's the whole BS about Itachi's susanoo TANKING kirin (which it didn't) while ignoring Susanoo's other feats like getting breached by a fuuton far weaker than a FRS.


Itachi's Susanoo did afford him protection against Kirin though, and we know Susanoo itself takes time to fully stabilize; it doesn't just appear immediately in 100% armor form. If Kirin was blocked by a (less armored form) of Susanoo's body, a single FRS doesn't have much chance of getting through.

Danzo's futon created a small gap in a weaker level Susanoo than Itachi's final version. 



> and then for some reason Naruto has to have the intelligence to "trick" itachi in order for him to summon a couple of clones and have them throw FRS from different directions.


Why would we just shut up and give Naruto the benefit of the doubt of being able to get behind Itachi with multiple clones and attack at the same time? If Naruto were just using a technique or something I can assume he would do that. 

This sequence of events your suggesting involves _both_ characters acting in a certain way and one being _tricked_ by the other. You don't think this point needs to be discussed and contested and is clear as day?



> Then there's the disregard of the fact that Itachi can't use his upper levels of susanoo while using amaterasu and has to focus on his target, meaning he gets blitzed from a clone or the real while trying to hit a clone or the real.


I never said he would use Amaterasu inside Susanoo. I repeatedly said he could use either of them, Amaterasu or Totsuka. That doesn't mean he couldn't if he wanted to. Itachi can choose to just stand right outside SUsanoo and still have it be a sentinel for him. He doesn't have to be inside of its cloak.

The Totsuka's probably even better at clearing the clones, but Edo Itachi can spit fire Amaterasu regardless. 

He lit 1 Cerberus head on fire, lit another Cerberus head on fire, and then turned and lit Nagato on fire in rapid succession.



> in addition to ignoring the numbers game (for example, when itachi attacks 1 naruto, apparently all the other ones just stand around doing nothing) and only taking the high-end feats of susanoo while ignoring the lower ones.


I specifically made a section for the numbers game which I'm not sure why you completely ignored it.

Itachi doesn't have to worry about the other Naruto's while he's attacking 1 because of Susanoo. It is an omni directional defense that is sturdy enough to not be penetrated by Naruto's strongest attack(FRS).

The only time FRS would work is a farfetched scenario where multiple clones all manage to get behind Itachi at the same time(to avoid the shield) and then all launch it at the same time to pile up the damage it deals, without Itachi turning around to block and just leaving his back open.

I mean, do you really believe Itachi's going to see Naruto summon clones, then focus on one while all the others attack him from the back? Itachi's intelligence and awareness is probably one of thee most hyped in the manga at this point. If your going to go with this argument, show why its likely to work at least. Against Itachi of all people.

And that wasn't a high end feat of Susanoo. That Susanoo was not on the same armor level as Itachi's full susanoo. Saying I'm ignoring low ends feats is deceptive because Sasuke's susanoo was not fully matured then.



> Once again, Naruto summons 13+ KCM bunsins. What exactly can itachi do? If he attacks one with amaterasu, the others end him. It's the same thing for genjutsu.


Why are you just spitting these things out like they are facts? Your supposed to say what you think then back it up. That's like me saying the real Naruto gets caught in genjutsu at the beginning and not saying anything to back it up.



> If he goes in susanoo, he's going to have to deal with waves of 14 guided FRS from different directions.


Why can't Itachi move while he's in susanoo? All the FRS hitting the frontal part of Susanoo can be countered by the Yata no Kagami without damage. A[probably lessor form] of susanoo guarded Itachi against an unblocked kirin strike, which is much stronger than a single FRS thrown at a single part of Susanoo.

I'm not sure if people will see it my way but I can at least say how I think things will go and why I think it is likely it would go said way. Your just assuming a bunch of things as fact and rarely backing any of it up. If were supposed to debate like that I should just say Itachi genjutsu's the real naruto at the start and thats the end of that(which is basically what you're doing in your reply to me here)

You ignored stamina(Naruto's FRS isn't a cheap technique to use-it costs chakra).
You ignored genjutsu.
You ignored various elements of the battle such as Itachi having his own form of support and Naruto having to overcome LoS issues due to avoiding genjutsu and thus being more vulnerable as a result to Itachi's fast attacks.

And your discrediting what I'm saying because its the "same rehashed argument" that's been done throughout the thread. So therefore there's nothing to see here and it should be ignored. Naruto wins. Attacks the points not the post bro.

These things will make a difference in the battle and should be factored in. They're not so trivial as to be ignored.
I'm not downplaying either character; as you can see they're on the same tier in my personal list. You come off as downplaying when you don't accept all the feats from both parties.

Itachi's only chance of losing here is his Susanoo being busted, since he will otherwise chip away at Naruto and his clones, or Naruto will run out of stamina because Itachi's an edo. I said why I think it won't be busted in time by Naruto. 

Naruto has a lot more avenues to defeat than Itachi does here but you're completely ignoring them and assuming they are void because he just has 13 clones running around.

There's a lot of blind faith being put into those clones making Naruto invisible to Itachi so he doesn't get targeted early on.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:
			
		

> And without clones or MS Naruto'd probably get caught in genjutsu early like has happened in the past when he fights Itachi honestly.




*In the past Itachi was forced to resort to finger and crow genjutsu tricks Naruto had no knowedge on, because Naruto knew better than to look directly at his eyes.

This time Naruto has knowledge on everything.




			Unless this encounter would be different for some unforeseen reason.
		
Click to expand...


You mean like the last time they met?Because genjutsu wasn't a factor then.And don't use the arguement that "they were just having a chat".That only works for Naruto.Itachi was forced to fight him, the same way he was forced to fight Bee against whom genjutsu was used.




			You ignored various elements of the battle such as Itachi having his own form of support and Naruto having to overcome LoS issues due to avoiding genjutsu and thus being more vulnerable as a result to Itachi's fast attacks.
		
Click to expand...


"Naruto having to overcome LoS issues due to avoiding genjutsu "


Do you even read the manga?Naruto has been fighting Tobito and Madara how long now?At what point was what you said an issue?Or i guess you are gonna try to say that they are not that good of a genjutsu users?Please..

Somone as fast as V1 Ei needed to be distracted by 5 Susano clones and  Tsunade getting in trouble for Madara to catch and physically restrain him so genjutsu can be successfully executed.If Naruto keeps moving gen shouldn't be an issue.


Not only that, but Naruto is also a sensor.In both SM and RM.In RM he senses emotions, so he doesn't need to look at Itachi to know exactly where he is:

Mai

Naruto's clones do the rest.




			Itachi doesn't have to worry about the other Naruto's while he's attacking 1 because of Susanoo. It is an omni directional defense that is sturdy enough to not be penetrated by Naruto's strongest attack(FRS).
		
Click to expand...


How did you come to the conclusion that the parts of Susano not protected by Yata can't be destroyed by FRS, exactly?




			The only time FRS would work is a farfetched scenario where multiple clones all manage to get behind Itachi at the same time(to avoid the shield) and then all launch it at the same time to pile up the damage it deals, without Itachi turning around to block and just leaving his back open.
		
Click to expand...


Yeah, it's totally farfetched for clones who are as fast as V1 Ei and have chakra arms with huge range to accomplish that.




			since he will otherwise chip away at Naruto and his clones,
		
Click to expand...


Not really.V1 speed + sensing is enough for dodging and countering Itachi's attacks.




*


----------



## CoockiesAndMilf (Feb 15, 2013)

Rosencrantz said:


> Naruto spammed clones in SM, RM, AND BM. You just don't know the manga.
> 
> Mai
> SM.
> ...



*Actually in BM these were his chakra tails which took the shape of hands.
Mai*


----------



## Lawrence777 (Feb 15, 2013)

> In the past Itachi was forced to resort to finger and crow genjutsu tricks Naruto had no knowedge on, because Naruto knew better than to look directly at his eyes.
> 
> This time Naruto has knowledge on everything.


I was referring to a hypothetical scenario that was suggested concerning Naruto not having clones. He'd probably get genjutsu'd by Itachi in some way probably Izanami.



> "Naruto having to overcome LoS issues due to avoiding genjutsu "
> 
> 
> Do you even read the manga?Naruto has been fighting Tobito and Madara how long now?At what point was what you said an issue?Or i guess you are gonna try to say that they are not that good of a genjutsu users?Please..


Madara and Obito don't use genjutsu as frequently as Itachi does so Naruto has no reason to refrain from eye contact. They have the talent but its not their go to move.
Lets look at Itachi's combat history of genjutsu use compared to Tobi and Obito's.

*Spoiler*: __ 



Itachi vs. Kakashi, Kurenai     Genjutsu reflection > Kage Bushin > Tsukiyomi > KO
Itachi vs. Jiraiya -
Itachi vs. Kakashi, Naruto       Eye Sight Genjutsu (Evaded) > Finger Genjutsu > Basic Jutsu > Genjutsu 
Itachi vs. Orochimaru              Eye Sight Genjutsu > KO
Itachi vs. Deidara                     Eye Sight Genjutsu > KO
Itachi vs. Post-Wind Naruto   Eye Sight Genjutsu (Evaded) > Finger Genjutsu Evaded > Crow Genjutsu > KO
Itachi vs. Hebi Sasuke             Eye Sight Genjutsu (broken) > Clone Kage Bushin > Tsukiyomi (broken)
Itachi vs. Killer Bee:               Eye Sight Genjutsu (broken) > Mangekyou Sharingan
Itachi vs. Nagato: -
Itachi vs. Sage Kabuto:  All Genjutsu Blocked > Kage Bushin > Kage Bushin > Izanami(Starts setting up this genjutsu from the beginning)



Itachi spams genjutsu and does it in different ways if he can't get you the first time. If Naruto looks at Itachi he's going to be genjutsu'd, and I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.



> Somone as fast as V1 Ei needed to be distracted by 5 Susano clones and Tsunade getting in trouble for Madara to catch and physically restrain him so genjutsu can be successfully executed.If Naruto keeps moving gen shouldn't be an issue.


Who said Madara was trying to genjutsu Ei the whole time? He could of just grabbed him and decided to do it then. It wasn't as if he was struggling trying to genjutsu him the whole time.



> Not only that, but Naruto is also a sensor.In both SM and RM.In RM he senses emotions, so he doesn't need to look at Itachi to know exactly where he is:
> 
> this


He isn't going to dodge Susanoo and Amaterasu without even looking out for them.



> How did you come to the conclusion that the parts of Susano not protected by Yata can't be destroyed by FRS, exactly?


Susanoo tanked Kirin without yata mirror. Kirin is a stronger attack than FRS. Therefore Susanoo > Kirin > FRS is the line of reasoning I've been going with.



> Yeah, it's totally farfetched for clones who are as fast as V1 Ei and have chakra arms with huge range to accomplish that.


That'd be enough if Itachi couldn't just turn around and block with the yata mirror. We have to factor in both characters, and Itachi is very fast himself and even more intelligent.



> Not really.V1 speed + sensing is enough for dodging and countering Itachi's attacks.


V2 speed is necessary for Amaterasu dodging, as was shown when the Raikage went V2 upon seeing the mangekyou. The Raikage was also looking out for the blood in Sasuke's eyes and waiting to shunshin at the last second. KCM Naruto wasn't able to sense Amaterasu's build up like Nagato did and had to be warned.

We don't know if V1 speed is > Totsuka speed, but regardless, when Naruto attempts FRS, its going to kick up dust clouds and debris that Itachi will definitely capitalize on and blitz through. Naruto only has 13 clones before he's out of KCM juice and has to use weaker modes.


----------



## Deshi Basara (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> I was referring to a hypothetical scenario that was suggested concerning Naruto not having clones. He'd probably get genjutsu'd by Itachi in some way probably Izanami.



Izanami is not working on opponent like Naruto who fully accepts himself.
Not that Itachi will have the chance to use it in the first place with all the clones running around.




> Madara and Obito don't use genjutsu as frequently as Itachi does so Naruto has no reason to refrain from eye contact. They have the talent but its not their go to move.
> Lets look at Itachi's combat history of genjutsu use compared to Tobi and Obito's.



Absolutely baseless.As soon as Madara appeared, Gaara warned everybody not to look directly into his eyes.

Onoki, when told that Yamato was captured, warned the Shinobi Aliance that Madara will make him spill everything with his  genjutsu powers.

Madara has used genjutsu enough for people to know his skill with it.In fact, his genjutsu is what people knew most about, while they haven't even heard of Perfect Susano.

As for Obito, Naruto knows from Kushina that he made Kurama his bitch 16 years ago with his sharingan genjutsu.So Naruto either knows to avoid eye contact, or for some reason knows he can counter it.



> Itachi spams genjutsu and does it in different ways if he can't get you the first time. If Naruto looks at Itachi he's going to be genjutsu'd, and I don't think anyone really disagrees with this.



Yeah, but Naruto isn't gonna look at him.He doesn't even have to.. being a sensor and all..





> Who said Madara was trying to genjutsu Ei the whole time? He could of just grabbed him and decided to do it then. It wasn't as if he was struggling trying to genjutsu him the whole time.



No one said that Madara was trying the whole time.He wasn't, but when he actually wanted to use genjutsu, he needed Ei distracted, and immobilized to do it.




> He isn't going to dodge Susanoo and Amaterasu without even looking out for them.



Kabuto dodged the previously "unavoidable" arrow, and Amaterasu (although it was used for defensive purposes) with his eyes sealed and thanks to Sage Mode danger sensing.

But if Naruto keeps moving, how is Itachi's gonna focus on him in the first place, especially with Naruto's clones running around trying to end him?



> Susanoo tanked Kirin without yata mirror.



Speculation.Not actually fact.

And you need to look up the defenition of the word "tanking", because that's definitely not it..

bad wounds
bad wounds

Susano was gone, Itachi's Akatsuki cloak was gone, and Itachi himself was clearly injured and knocked out.




> Kirin is a stronger attack than FRS. Therefore Susanoo > Kirin > FRS is the line of reasoning I've been going with.



Kirin may have a bigger AOE than FRS, but FRS is more than just an AOE tech.It's a piercing attack that attacks on cellular level and leaves the target unable to use chakra ever again.



> That'd be enough if Itachi couldn't just turn around and block with the yata mirror. We have to factor in both characters, and Itachi is very fast himself and even more intelligent.



It's HIGHLY unlikely that Itachi will be able to turn round in time before the clones reach their target with the long reach of their chakra arms and V1 speed.
And there are 13 clones.They can cover each side of Susano at the same time.Itachi can not.





> V2 speed is necessary for Amaterasu dodging, as was shown when the Raikage went V2 upon seeing the mangekyou. The Raikage was also looking out for the blood in Sasuke's eyes and waiting to shunshin at the last second. KCM Naruto wasn't able to sense Amaterasu's build up like Nagato did and had to be warned.



If you know that an incredibly fast attack is about to be fired at you, and you have a way to be even faster, won't you do it, just to be on the safe side?

I think is pretty safe to assume that Ei has only heard of Ameterasu, and doesn't know how fast it is.After all, MS is rare even among the Uchiha and not every MS user has that ability.Madara himself might not even have it.I doubt Ei even faced Amaterasu user before.


And Sasuke was able to avoid Amaterasu for a time before he got hit (but then again,  he flat out said that it was part of his plan all along to get hit, so..)



> KCM Naruto wasn't able to sense Amaterasu's build up like Nagato did and had to be warned




Naruto can use SM if he wants to sense Ama coming.



> We don't know if V1 speed is > Totsuka speed, but regardless, when Naruto attempts FRS, its going to kick up dust clouds and debris that Itachi will definitely capitalize on and blitz through.



Didn't you look at the pages i showed you?
bad wounds
bad wounds

RM Naruto was already put in this kind of situation.These kind of bullshit strategies don't work on a real sensor.
Also, SM Kabuto could fight with his eyes sealed.

And don't bring up Nagato.He was controlled by Kabuto, and Kabuto didn't even know that he was the sensor instead of Itachi.Itachi had to correct him.




> Naruto only has 13 clones before he's out of KCM juice and has to use weaker modes



I know that the OP says



> -This is Naruto before he gained BM (aka. 13 clones max/Kyuubi is not necessarily friendly).



But that doesn't mean that his "juice" runs out, or that he can't make another 13 clones after the first dosen dissapear.
RM Naruto spend a whole night and day training in that mode (all while Kurama was draining him of chakra) before he made those clones.As far as i know, here RM Naruto strats fresh.

Think of it this way, SM Naruto was only allowed two clones at a time so they don't interfere with the other clones gathering Sage Energy.Doesn't mean Naruto couldn't make another two when the first two went poof.

And when a clone goes poof, all the informition it has gathered goes to the owner.Doesn't at least some of the chakra?


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> Itachi had no reason to use mangekyou on a target he had reasons to let live. Naruto also never got past getting caught in Itachi's first genjutsu attempt, hence Itachi never had to resort to it.


And naruto had no reason to spam clones since during their first confrontation, Naruto had comrades, and in the second, he had tons of clones already out.

And if Naruto never got passed itachi's first genjutsu attempt, then it just means Naruto wouldn't opt to spam clones until a little later in the fight.

So the lesson to be learned is not to generalize when it suits your agenda.  You simply state "naruto hasn't spammed clones against itachi" and fail to bring up the details WHY he hasn't spammed clones, while when confronted an equivalent argument "Itachi hasn't use MS against Naruto" you go into details WHY he didn't use MS.  

Give both characters fair treatment, don't double standard.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> And without clones or MS Naruto'd probably get caught in genjutsu early like has happened in the past when he fights Itachi honestly. Unless this encounter would be different for some unforeseen reason.


Um.... go reread how itachi catches naruto in genjutsu the second time he fights him.  He uses shisui's eye. Naruto has already learned about how to fight the MS and itachi's genjutsu which is why itachi had to resort to that method against a naruto 250 chapters ago.  

And obviously KCM Naruto =/= base naruto with tons of clones out.  Ei has shown that the more speed you have the harder it is to get you into genjutsu which is why it takes 5 madara susanoos to get him into one.  Does itachi have that? No.  So he doesnt get naruto into one.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Itachi's Susanoo did afford him protection against Kirin though, and we know Susanoo itself takes time to fully stabilize; it doesn't just appear immediately in 100% armor form. If Kirin was blocked by a (less armored form) of Susanoo's body, a single FRS doesn't have much chance of getting through.


I agree with this, but you do realize this is different from what you initially said about Itachi's Susanoo "tanking" kirin right?



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Danzo's futon created a small gap in a weaker level Susanoo than Itachi's final version.


only one stage weaker



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Why would we just shut up and give Naruto the benefit of the doubt of being able to get behind Itachi with multiple clones and attack at the same time? If Naruto were just using a technique or something I can assume he would do that.


what can itachi do to prevent a couple of narutos from surrounding him when he is up against 5 or more, each of which is much faster than himself?  If he focuses on attacking one of them, the others get behind him.  You just arbitrarily say "itachi won't let him happen" yet show no way for him to do so.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> This sequence of events your suggesting involves _both_ characters acting in a certain way and one being _tricked_ by the other. You don't think this point needs to be discussed and contested and is clear as day?


Tell me how itachi prevents a couple of clones from surrounding him when each is faster than him, and at long range?



NothingMeansAnything said:


> I never said he would use Amaterasu inside Susanoo. I repeatedly said he could use either of them, Amaterasu or Totsuka. That doesn't mean he couldn't if he wanted to. Itachi can choose to just stand right outside SUsanoo and still have it be a sentinel for him. He doesn't have to be inside of its cloak.


if he stands outside, then he isn't protected by susanoo and thus, he gets killed by guided FRS.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> The Totsuka's probably even better at clearing the clones, but Edo Itachi can spit fire Amaterasu regardless.


 he has to focus on just one of the clones to hit them with amaterasu, while he does that, the other clones end him.

There is nothing that suggests Totsuka clears the clones.  What is its fastest speed feat?  Stabbing an immobile nagato through a dust cloud?  How do you go from that to being able to tag clones with V1 level Ei speed?



NothingMeansAnything said:


> He lit 1 Cerberus head on fire, lit another Cerberus head on fire, and then turned and lit Nagato on fire in rapid succession.


yeah, cerberus who was incapacitated and on the ground, and nagato who couldn't move and was 2 meters away from him.  

We already know MS users can spray amaterasu, but the fact is that against an opponent with V1 Ei speed and is trying to actually dodge the attack, he is going to have a hell of a time hitting them, and thus if he attempts that, he gets ended by all the others.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> I specifically made a section for the numbers game which I'm not sure why you completely ignored it.
> 
> Itachi doesn't have to worry about the other Naruto's while he's attacking 1 because of Susanoo. It is an omni directional defense that is sturdy enough to not be penetrated by Naruto's strongest attack(FRS).


right there is ignoring the numbers game since Itachi's susanoo isn't going up against 1 FRS, it is going up against waves of 13+ FRS. 



NothingMeansAnything said:


> The only time FRS would work is a farfetched scenario where multiple clones all manage to get behind Itachi at the same time(to avoid the shield) and then all launch it at the same time to pile up the damage it deals, without Itachi turning around to block and just leaving his back open.


tell me how itachi is going to prevent multiple clones from getting behind him when he is up against even 5 of them with greater speed than himself?  He focuses on trying to stop the ones running on his left means the ones on his right are behind him, if he turns around to stop the ones behind him, the ones who he initially were facing are not behind him.  FRS is a long range technique, the clones don't even have to be close to his susanoo in order to throw it.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> I mean, do you really believe Itachi's going to see Naruto summon clones, then focus on one while all the others attack him from the back? Itachi's intelligence and awareness is probably one of thee most hyped in the manga at this point. If your going to go with this argument, show why its likely to work at least. Against Itachi of all people.


because 1 KCM clone is kage-level, because they have V1 ei speed and thus if itachi wants to tag one of them, he is going to have to focus on them and thus would not have time to deal with any of the other ones. Itachi's awareness is irrelevant, he could be fully aware of the clones running around himself, but there is nothing he can do about it since just tagging one of them is going to be hell especially since they will be fighting at long range once his tank comes out.  He can notice the others running to the the left and right of him, but what does he do?  turn around to fight the ones on the left, and his back is now exposed to the ones on the right and the ones he was initially fighting.  

 So why don't you show how itachi deals with 13 opponents all at once who are kage level, who can move at V1 Ei speeds, each of who can spam guided FRS.


----------



## ueharakk (Feb 15, 2013)

NothingMeansAnything said:


> And that wasn't a high end feat of Susanoo. That Susanoo was not on the same armor level as Itachi's full susanoo. Saying I'm ignoring low ends feats is deceptive because Sasuke's susanoo was not fully matured then.


Except it was only 1 stage below itachi's armored susanoo and it was blown open by a Fuuton far weaker than FRS.  That's ignoring low end feats.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Why are you just spitting these things out like they are facts? Your supposed to say what you think then back it up. That's like me saying the real Naruto gets caught in genjutsu at the beginning and not saying anything to back it up.


already explained, not that it even needed to be explained.

And this is basically the concessionary pro-itachi argument that his supporters fall to when they know he can't win:  "genjutsu gg"



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Why can't Itachi move while he's in susanoo? All the FRS hitting the frontal part of Susanoo can be countered by the Yata no Kagami without damage. A[probably lessor form] of susanoo guarded Itachi against an unblocked kirin strike, which is much stronger than a single FRS thrown at a single part of Susanoo.


]
guided FRS, 13+ clones faster than itachi himself, the fact that kabuto says just making a susanoo arm afforded itachi mobility, and Kirin is in no way much stronger than a FRS.  Just because an attack has a higher AoE does not mean it is stronger.  FRS hurt Kurama more than 25+ SM COR each of which is hyped to be able to hollow out a mountain, and against Pein, its AoE was half the size of CT crater (something that could house a small mountain-range) and was tossing bulding-sized rocks above mountains.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> I'm not sure if people will see it my way but I can at least say how I think things will go and why I think it is likely it would go said way. Your just assuming a bunch of things as fact and rarely backing any of it up. If were supposed to debate like that I should just say Itachi genjutsu's the real naruto at the start and thats the end of that(which is basically what you're doing in your reply to me here)


yet we see itachi needed shisui's eye to get fuuton naruto into genjutsu, that Ei level speed makes it extremely difficult for even Madara to get Ei into genjutsu, and that KCM Naruto is obviously not equal to chapter 260 naruto.  

Do these things really need to be stated?

and I have backed up all of my reasoning, you are the one not showing the whole picture and downplaying Naruto by ignoring the numbers game.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> You ignored stamina(Naruto's FRS isn't a cheap technique to use-it costs chakra).
> You ignored genjutsu.
> You ignored various elements of the battle such as Itachi having his own form of support and Naruto having to overcome LoS issues due to avoiding genjutsu and thus being more vulnerable as a result to Itachi's fast attacks.


- Naruto's clones after spamming KCM for hours were spamming FRS, and had enough chakra to even make a bijuudama which costs incomparably more chakra than FRS
- You ignored the reasons why genjutsu does not hit Naruto
- All that has been taken into account already

and lol, Naruto doesn't have to overcome LoS issues to avoid genjutsu, he just doesn't have to make direct eyecontact within itachi's genjutsu range, something that he has no problems with as seen when fighting edo itachi.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> And your discrediting what I'm saying because its the "same rehashed argument" that's been done throughout the thread. So therefore there's nothing to see here and it should be ignored. Naruto wins. Attacks the points not the post bro.


bro, your points in your post already have been covered in earlier parts of this thread, therefor I am perfectly justified in calling out those said posts making the rehashed points.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> These things will make a difference in the battle and should be factored in. They're not so trivial as to be ignored.
> I'm not downplaying either character; as you can see they're on the same tier in my personal list. You come off as downplaying when you don't accept all the feats from both parties.


Not downplaying at all.  You would be the one downplaying when you say Naruto will fall to genjutsu gg despite all the obvious canonical factor ripping up that argument.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Itachi's only chance of losing here is his Susanoo being busted, since he will otherwise chip away at Naruto and his clones, or Naruto will run out of stamina because Itachi's an edo. I said why I think it won't be busted in time by Naruto.


so Susanoo can tank 13+ FRS?  How does itachi prevent Naruto's clones from surrounding him?



NothingMeansAnything said:


> Naruto has a lot more avenues to defeat than Itachi does here but you're completely ignoring them and assuming they are void because he just has 13 clones running around.


what are those avenues to defeat?  All of those said "avenues" rely on ignoring that itachi will be dealing with 13+ opponents instead of 1.  which is why whenever you list an avenue of defeat, it's always talking about itachi fighting 1 naruto at a time, while the rest of his clones just stand around and wait.



NothingMeansAnything said:


> There's a lot of blind faith being put into those clones making Naruto invisible to Itachi so he doesn't get targeted early on.


Can itachi tell the difference between the real and the clones?  It doesn't matter if itachi does target the real, he is going to have to deal with 12 guided FRS coming from different angles and directions while he tries to kill the real.  Tell me how he does that?  

No blind faith on my side, it's more like you are actively blinding yourself to many factors against Itachi.


----------

