# Strongest itachi beats with full knowledge?



## Sufex (Mar 4, 2020)

Title

Reactions: Like 1


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## Zembie (Mar 4, 2020)

Kaguya 



Forreal tho, I'd say he can beat Obito if he knows absolutely everything about him (That he's not Madara and is just playing pretend), he'll resort to Izanami to take Obito on and might snatch a W.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Kaguya
> 
> 
> 
> Forreal tho, I'd say he can beat Obito if he knows absolutely everything about him (That he's not Madara and is just playing pretend), he'll resort to Izanami to take Obito on and might snatch a W.


And then Obito uses Izanagi to stay alive and pops in one of the Rinegans to defeat Itachi!


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## Zembie (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And then Obito uses Izanagi to stay alive and pops in one of the Rinegans to defeat Itachi!



Can't put down the GOAT.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Can't put down the GOAT.


Itachi died from an illness.
Obito from death helped Kakashi help defeat Kaguya!

After 10 years and we are still wanking Itachi:

Reactions: Like 1


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 4, 2020)

Earth (without Base Yomi Numa) perhaps, you need to plant Totsuka on the ground. But does he need full knowledge to try that?


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## MSAL (Mar 4, 2020)

Pein/MS Obito, imho.


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

Oro w/o edo


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## Raiken (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And then Obito uses Izanagi to stay alive and pops in one of the Rinegans to defeat Itachi!


Itachi knew of Izanagi, though I guess he had no way to know Madara(Obito) possessed such power.


MSAL said:


> Pein/MS Obito, imho.


MS Obito & Killer B I'd say he could manage with full knowledge & some prep.

With Pain's hidden true body and 6 other bodies. Offing him even with full knowledge. It'll be a struggle for Itachi because he doesn't know where the true body would be. Naruto only located him thanks to SM sensing, an ability Itachi doesn't have. I don't think no amount of knowledge can help him defeat Pain.

KCM Naruto, MS Obito & Killer B, is my answer. But even with full knowledge, Itachi really has to bust some balls here.


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Hussain said:


> Oro w/o edo



The guy he canonically beat without full knowledge, while completely blind, coughing up blood, stabbed in the leg, burned, about 1 minute away from dying of cancer, and low on chakra is the highest he can beat with full knowledge and when completely fresh.


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## Symmetry (Mar 4, 2020)

Minato and maybe Pain sometimes


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> And then Obito uses Izanagi to stay alive and pops in one of the Rinegans to defeat Itachi!



Obito literally stated Itachi would definitely kill him with full knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Symmetry (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Obito literally stated Itachi would definitely kill him with full knowledge.



No he did not?

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Itachi died from an illness.
> Obito from death helped Kakashi help defeat Kaguya!
> 
> After 10 years and we are still wanking Itachi:



Wank never dies.


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Orochimaru op said:


> No he did not?


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## Symmetry (Mar 4, 2020)

Damn didn’t know that


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2020)

Like others have already ninja’d () it, with full knowledge the strongest Itachi has a good shot to beat is MS Obito IMO.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

That was a sneak attack dude.

So yes if you give Itachi full knowledge and a free sneak attack Obito could be killed.

In a clean fight Obito still has the edge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> The guy he canonically beat without full knowledge, while completely blind, coughing up blood, stabbed in the leg, burned, about 1 minute away from dying of cancer, and low on chakra is the highest he can beat with full knowledge and when completely fresh.


- What do you mean without full knowledge? Itachi knew Oro's jutsu right away. 
and they used to work together, if anything, it's Oro who didn't know everything about itachi... 

- Well Oro didn't have his jutsu either, as his hands were sealed. 
the rest are, almost, all the side effects of MS. So, it's whatever... 

And yes, since the ones who are stronger than Oro will shit on itachi. Pain, for example. 
altho I don't know what's your rating-list for the characters is...


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Hussain said:


> - What do you mean without full knowledge? Itachi knew Oro's jutsu right away.



Itachi didn’t know about every single attack or trick such as blood toxins.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Yeah, and it might be e a shock for you but statements are not feats!

If you use that logic Itachi can seal Kaguya because it was stated his blade can seal anything.


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Itachi didn’t know about every single attack or trick such as blood toxins.


and Oro used that on him or something?


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Hussain said:


> and Oro used that on him or something?



Do you know what full knowledge means?


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yeah, and it might be e a shock for you but statements are not feats!
> 
> If you use that logic Itachi can seal Kaguya because it was stated his blade can seal anything.



Don't give him any ideas!


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yeah, and it might be e a shock for you but statements are not feats!
> 
> If you use that logic Itachi can seal Kaguya because it was stated his blade can seal anything.



If Kaguya herself said the Totsuka could seal her, y’all would argue it couldn’t.


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Do you know what full knowledge means?


it means shit if X thing was not used. 
Had Oro used that jutsu against itachi, and that caused him problems or whatever, then sure...

But not knowing about something, and said something was never used, to begin with. Then that's irrelevant. 
That should be obvious...


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> If Kaguya herself said the Totsuka could seal her, y’all would argue it couldn’t.



You mean like how you are arguing Itachi saying Jiraiya is his equal but secretly not?

I guess if Kaguya told us Totsuka could seal her we would need to argue she secretly didn't mean totsuka but actually the 9 tails......or something.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> If Kaguya herself said the Totsuka could seal her, y’all would argue it couldn’t.


No, I would argue because it is still a statement!

And we do that for good reasons.


Goku vs Itachi, Itachi used the Totsuka blade.

Goku broke our of  Time stop which is a pocket dimension of time and vibrated an infinite dimension of nothingness.

The conclusion that blade does shit to Goku!

And for the Kaguya thing, then why would a uber seal be needed by two gods if a crappy sword is all that it takes?


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You mean like how you are arguing Itachi saying Jiraiya is his equal but secretly not?



That statement never named Jiraiya, and makes much more sense to apply to Kurama, *which is also how the official translation translates it*. So not the same. At worst, it’s ambiguous. At best, the official translation and common sense back it being Kurama that can take Itachi, Kisame, and more backup.

It seems the NBD has circle-jerked itself into not just ignoring the official translation, but belittling the more sensical interpretation that the official translation backs up. And as I’m not a 12-year-old that has to agree with the “consensus” of internet forum dwellers, I’m free to discard that non-sensical argument.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> That statement never named Jiraiya, and makes much more sense to apply to Kurama, *which is also how the official translation translates it*. So not the same. At worst, it’s ambiguous. At best, the official translation and common sense back it being Kurama that can take Itachi, Kisame, and more backup.
> 
> It seems the NBD has literally circle-jerked itself so hard into not just ignoring the official translation, but belittling the more sensical interpretation that the official translation backs up. And as I’m not a 12-year-old that has to agree with the “consensus” of internet forum dwellers, I’m free to discard that non-sensical argument from Jiraiya fans.


Chill man it is just a kid's manga!


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Chill man it is just a kid's manga!



Yo dawg, I don’t neg or dislike opinions I disagree with, so I’m plenty chill.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> That statement never named Jiraiya,



Didn't name Kurama either but you got no problem going balls deep in that angle.



> and makes much more sense to apply to Kurama,



LMAO

Literally no chance it makes "more sense".

Peep this - The team specifically tasked for capturing the 9-tails is actually terrified of it and doesn't think it can do anything about it without every fucking body dying.

OH BUT IT GETS BETTER.

After expressing this debilitating fear of their prey (?) they immediately take steps to remove Jiraiya from the equation, because who the fuck knows why? And then they proceed to shit diff the character they just talked about having a mass suicide with because there was no other options except apparently the shit diff they just laid down.

PERFECTLY SENSIBLE!

This wank is off the charts.

Reactions: Like 6


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

“Debilitating fear”, bro, you can’t even be honest and you’ve been debating for like two seconds. They were concerned, not debilitated. Kisame said “he didn’t know” if he could take Kurama, and Itachi said he might be able to match him, but that backup wouldn’t help either way. They also weren’t sure if Naruto could pull on all of Kurama, some of it, or none of it. All they likely heard was he just beat Shukaku.

Sorry, the guy that beat Orochimaru isn’t going to say that the guy Orochimaru beat in the past and called “pathetic” is so strong backup wouldn’t make a difference. The hype makes zero sense applying to Jiraiya.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> “Debilitating fear”, bro, you can’t even be honest and you’ve been debating for like two seconds. They were concerned, not debilitated. Kisame said “he didn’t know” if he could take Kurama, and Itachi said he might be able to take him evenly but that backup wouldn’t help either way.



Dude you literally said - "If Kaguya herself said the Totsuka could seal her, y’all would argue it couldn’t."

While simultaneously making arguments in this thread - 

You are in no position to discuss honesty. At all.



If you had any concern about "honesty" you would have abandoned that wack tier nonsense about Kurama.

But nooooooooo


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Your response there had zero substance for me to meaningfully reply to.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Your response there had zero substance for me to meaningfully reply to.



Your entire premise has no substance and was debunked over a decade ago. 

But here you are......

I will never understand how peeps can expect "substance" responses to pure rabbit hole headcanon.


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Peep this - The team specifically tasked for capturing the 9-tails is actually terrified of it and doesn't think it can do anything about it without every fucking body dying.


Didn't think of it this way... 
yeah, it sounds even dumber now...


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## Ejenku (Mar 4, 2020)

Strongest is MS Obito via Izanami. Normally it would be Killer Bee or Kabuto.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Sorry, the guy that beat Orochimaru isn’t going to say that the guy Orochimaru beat in the past and called “pathetic” is so strong backup wouldn’t make a difference. The hype makes zero sense applying to Jiraiya.


Oro in the manga is shift drifted by SM Jiraya that fought Pain who would solo Itachi.

Yep, no biases here!

Extrapolating  Jiraya because Oro is a sucker for genjutsu.

@blk  come here at least you make a good point even if wanked.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> “Debilitating fear”, bro, you can’t even be honest and you’ve been debating for like two seconds. They were concerned, not debilitated. Kisame said “he didn’t know” if he could take Kurama, and Itachi said he might be able to match him, but that backup wouldn’t help either way. They also weren’t sure if Naruto could pull on all of Kurama, some of it, or none of it. All they likely heard was he just beat Shukaku.
> 
> Sorry, the guy that beat Orochimaru isn’t going to say that the guy Orochimaru beat in the past and called “pathetic” is so strong backup wouldn’t make a difference. The hype makes zero sense applying to Jiraiya.


Itachi said ‘at best’ he could force a draw. So if Itachi didn’t know how much Naruto could draw on the Nine-Tails chakra; and we assume Naruto is the topic, that would mean even if Kid Naruto could only draw on KN0 worth of chakra Itachi could at best draw with him lol. That’s totally nonsensical.

And Itachi simply views Jiriaya as superior to Orochimaru; not surprising due to the qualities he values in a Shinobi.


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Oro in the manga is shift drifted by SM Jiraya that fought Pain who would solo Itachi.



Sage Jiraiya said he’d die to 3 Paths of Pain and ran away while his summons used a genjutsu he didn’t know they had. So let’s take it easy there.


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Itachi said ‘at best’ he could force a draw. So if Itachi didn’t know how much Naruto could draw on the Nine-Tails chakra; and we assume Naruto is the topic, that would mean even if Kid Naruto could only draw on KN0 worth of chakra Itachi could at best draw with him lol. That’s totally nonsensical.



What’s totally nonsensical is arbitrarily assuming the limit they would consider is KN0 when the Nine Tails Jin just beat BM Shukaku as far as the world was concerned, and that Kakashi had previously been shown to be panicking that Kurama was coming all the way out in the Wave Arc.

What’s totally nonsensical is thinking Jiraiya could defeat Itachi, Kisame, and more backup not making a difference when Itachi immediately before stated no ninja without a Sharingan could beat him and Kisame immediately after states Itachi by himself shouldn’t need to retreat from Jiraiya.

What’s totally nonsensical is that Orochimaru considered Jiraiya pathetic as always, yet acknowledged Itachi was stronger than him, yet “pathetic” Jiraiya can take on Itachi and a ton of backup.

Literally none of that makes sense and is all within 20 chapters of the statement, whereas the MS controlling Kurama or Kisame draining bijuu is over 200-300 chapters later, and still makes more sense than the alternative. And I didn’t even have to pretend to fail to understand the difference between Naruto and Kurama.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Sage Jiraiya said he’d die to 3 Paths of Pain and ran away while his summons used a genjutsu he didn’t know they had. So let’s take it easy there.


SM includes all of his summons including Sage frogs.

Again go back to facts for once!



Illusory said:


> Itachi immediately before stated no ninja without a Sharingan


Wich is a bullshit statement like those that you put your faith in.
Minato, Tobirama defeat him without Sharingan.

Hashirama shits on him with you guess it SM.
Naruto with SM in the last shit difs Itachi.
Tobirama defeated an MS user.


So many examples of Shinobi defeating Uchihas without Asspull eyes.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Wich is a bullshit statement like those that you put your faith in.
> Minato, Tobirama defeat him without Sharingan.



That’s your (wrong) opinion, and they were literally all dead anyway. It’s not the same thing as going “only a ninja with this can beat me” and one chapter later going “this guy without that can’t be beaten even with a ton of backup”, which makes no sense.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> That’s your opinion, and they were literally all dead anyway. It’s not the same thing as going “only a ninja with this can beat me” and next chapter going “this guy without that can’t be beaten even with a ton of backup”. It’s completely illogical.


LOL ... don't get the point.

You are saying that Itachi could not be defeated by anyone bar who Obito and Sasuke.


By the way, Nagato has no Sharingan and those eyes are not his, Toneri is the same. Both can defeat him very easily.
It is that easy to disprove a no limit fallacy such as that!

And yep we have to agree that because you found a statement out of context and here we are!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lyren (Mar 4, 2020)

OT : so maybe P1 Kabuto


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> LOL ... don't get the point.
> 
> You are saying that Itachi could not be defeated by anyone bar who Obito and Sasuke.
> 
> ...



I’m saying Itachi said that based on the ninja he knew to exist, including Jiraiya. You going “b-b-but ninja that died when Itachi was a toddler or long before he was born might be exceptions!” isnt a counter for the point being made that ignoring the official translation and common sense to apply Kurama’s hype to Jiraiya directly contradicts what Itachi said the chapter before.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I’m saying Itachi said that based on the ninja he knew to exist, including Jiraiya.


How do you know that what if he was bluffing or lying?


Illusory said:


> isnt a counter for the point being made.


I am not countering your point because your point lacks feats.


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> How do you know that, what if he was bluffing or laying?



For what purpose would he bluff to scrub-Kakashi that was already exhausted?


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> when Itachi immediately before stated no ninja without a Sharingan could beat him.



A draw is not defeat. Itachi said he and Jiraiya would *die*. Both parties dying is a draw.

Even with this poor argument it still fails as a draw is distinctly a different outcome than defeat.


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> For what purpose would he bluff to scrub-Kakashi that was already exhausted?


Not my point and job to provide that!


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> A draw is not defeat. Itachi said he and Jiraiya would *die*. Both parties dying is a draw..



Being killed is being defeated. Itachi said “only someone with a Sharingan and Uchiha blood can *possibly* defeat me”.

The mere fact that Itachi saying he might die is contradicting his statement the chapter prior, unless the hype, as the official translation agrees, is not applying to “someone” but an “it” like the Nine Tails.

This is the inconsistency from the chapter before, there is also an inconsistency the chapter after when Kisame firmly believes Itachi is above Jiraiya, and another inconsistency a few chapters later when Orochimaru says Jiraiya was always pathetic to him. And also a few chapters earlier when the Sannin are said to be able to defeat one another i.e. same general level.

The majority of half-decent counterarguments for it applying to Jiraiya (of which there are few) involve information from hundreds of chapters later, and even then, it still makes more sense to be about Kurama.


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## Kai (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Sorry, the guy that beat Orochimaru isn’t going to say that the guy Orochimaru beat in the past and called “pathetic” is so strong backup wouldn’t make a difference. The hype makes zero sense applying to Jiraiya.


It does make sense if you consider most if not everything Itachi stated in Part 1 was a lie.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Being killed is being defeated.






Not if you also kill your opponent.

Both parties dying is a draw.

No amount of mental gymnastics will change this.



> Itachi said “only a ninja with a Sharingan and Uchiha blood can *possibly* defeat me”.
> 
> The mere fact that Itachi saying he might die is contradicting his statement the chapter prior, unless the hype, as the official translate shows, is applying to an “it” the Nine Tails.



A draw is not defeat. No sports team in the history of the world record tie's as losses.

Stop it.

You're wrong.

It's over.


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## Turrin (Mar 4, 2020)

Illusory said:


> What’s totally nonsensical is arbitrarily assuming the limit they would consider is KN0 when the Nine Tails Jin just beat BM Shukaku as far as the world was concerned, and that Kakashi had previously been shown to be panicking that Kurama was coming all the way out in the Wave Arc.
> 
> What’s totally nonsensical is thinking Jiraiya could defeat Itachi, Kisame, and more backup not making a difference when Itachi immediately before stated no ninja without a Sharingan could beat him and Kisame immediately after states Itachi by himself shouldn’t need to retreat from Jiraiya.
> 
> ...


I don’t think you get it; I’m not talking about Naruto at his strongest he could be; I’m talking about the weakest he could be. If Itachi says the best case scenario is a draw that means even if Kid Naruto couldn’t manifest the 9-tails more then KN0; Itachi could still on draw with him. 

If itachi had said the best cases scenario is we stomp him becuase he’s just a kid then what your saying would make sense

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Mar 4, 2020)

*Obito* definitely.

Itachi was able to create & substitute himself with a clone without EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto noticing, both of whom have vastly more advanced perceptions (ocular and otherwise) than Obito.

Therefore, Itachi can 100% feint Obito.

This means that Obito will teleport away a clone, not the real Itachi. And this will mark the first Izanami timestamp.

After that Obito is done for, because he cannot defeat Itachi in any other way than Kamui'ing him, thus Itachi can simply let Obito start the warp _even on his real body_ and Izanami will activate automatically (since the physical sensation of being Kamui'd will be replicated) and instantly. Therefore trapping Obito before the wormhole is even finished.

Izanagi is automatically countered, so Obito cannot use that to escape. His personality is also perfect for getting stuck on the Genjutsu, giving Itachi all the time in the world to kill him or whatever.

With full knowledge, Itachi will go for this strategy that is _a perfect counter _for Obito, since he will know he has no other way to win.
On the other hand Obito really cannot do much against it since he can only win with Kamui, but he cannot recognize Itachi's feints or that Izanami is being used.



Other characters that comes to mind are Minato and Killer Bee, but i would argue Itachi defeats them regardless as he is simply a bad match up for them (the first goes down to Genjutsu in general, the second to Ama or Totsuka when he goes BM because of lack of mobility).

I don't see Itachi beating Pain or Nagato even with full knowledge. Maybe Edo/Healthy Itachi has a possibility against Pain, but it's a stretch overall since he has nothing to stop CST or CT regardless (although all of the other abilities of Pain are not that useful against a Susanoo).


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

blk said:


> *Obito* definitely.
> 
> Itachi was able to create & substitute himself with a clone without EMS Sasuke and SM Kabuto noticing, both of whom have vastly more advanced perceptions (ocular and otherwise) than Obito.
> 
> ...


At least you put some arguments.

Wrong but those are ok!

Izanami is not doing anything to Obito!

Izanagi was first used by Obito so to think Itachi will use that is highly improbable.

Obito has a lot more Sharingas to his disposition so yeah Obito 99% of the time defeats Itachi.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Trojan (Mar 4, 2020)

Kai said:


> It does make sense if you consider most if not everything Itachi stated in Part 1 was a lie.


Everything except when he hypes himself like Tsokyomi for example. You forgot to add that one...

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> At least you put some arguments.
> 
> Wrong but those are ok!
> 
> ...



I'm not sure what you mean.

With full knowledge Itachi knows that he has no other way to defeat Obito than to use Izanami. Therefore he will use it.

Feint + Izanami, after realizing there is no other option, is literally the strategy he did against SM Kabuto. 100% canon and IC.

And Obito's skill set, fighting style and personality makes that strategy a perfect counter that has a 99% chance of defeating him.
Incidentally this also substantiates Obito's statement that if Itachi had full knowledge on him, he would be dead. Fits perfectly with portrayal and plot.

Izanagi is literally useless as it cannot be used to break out of Izanami, in fact it is outright negated by it.

The idea that Obito will first use Izanagi is complete head canon since that's not something he will use without a good reason.
And a feint + a Genjutsu he doesn't know is being used, aren't (as far as he knows) good reasons to randomly use Izanagi.

The strategy i'm proposing won't last more than a few minutes and Obito will have no idea of what is happening (like Kabuto too had no idea the fight was entirely on Itachi's hands).


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## Ren. (Mar 4, 2020)

blk said:


> I'm not sure what you mean.
> 
> With full knowledge Itachi knows that he has no other way to defeat Obito than to use Izanami. Therefore he will use it.
> 
> ...


Just one thing, Izanami was a plot point, if you disagree then show me where was it mentioned before and I yes mean mentioned not use?


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## blk (Mar 4, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Just one thing, Izanami was a plot point, if you disagree then show me where was it mentioned before and I yes mean mentioned not use?



Why would i disagree? Everything is a "plot point" and i don't see how it could be any different


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2020)

I'd say he'd likely beat Minato more times then not with full knowledge


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## Lyren (Mar 4, 2020)

Bonly said:


> I'd say he'd likely beat Minato more times then not with full knowledge


How?


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Kai said:


> It does make sense if you consider most if not everything Itachi stated in Part 1 was a lie.



Even lies have to be believable though.


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## T-Bag (Mar 4, 2020)

insert name here.


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## Bonly (Mar 4, 2020)

Lyren said:


> How?



Knowledge let’s him be more careful about Minato touching him meaning he can avoid contact or use Susano’o to defend from Minato. Then he can focus on catching Minato in a Genjutsu to give him an edge to win the fight


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## Illusory (Mar 4, 2020)

Itachi already has a massive advantage against Minato even without full knowledge. Minato doesn’t know about crow or finger genjutsu, and can’t break out if FRS Naruto with better chakra mastery couldn’t.

Heck, even if he could break out, he couldn’t notice and do it in the 1 second he’d have to do so. Minato is the one that needs full knowledge in that battle. Dude could try closing his eyes like Sage Kabuto.


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## Onyx Emperor (Mar 4, 2020)

What version of Itachi? Sick almost blind Itachi? Edo tense Itachi? Naruto storm 4 Itachi (lol)?


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Kabuto fight Sasuke or Killer Bee. Possibly Minato too assuming the stronger one of the two doesn’t have full knowledge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Kisame (Mar 5, 2020)

Killer Bee, Danzo (no Koto), Muu, Gengetsu, SM Jiraiya.

Whoever you think is strongest.


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## MShadows (Mar 5, 2020)

Bonly said:


> Knowledge let’s him be more careful about Minato touching him meaning he can avoid contact or use Susano’o to defend from Minato. Then he can focus on catching Minato in a Genjutsu to give him an edge to win the fight


A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over. 

People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.


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## J★J♥ (Mar 5, 2020)

Kakashi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Mar 5, 2020)

MShadows said:


> A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over.
> 
> People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.



Why? Is Itachi going to just sit in Susanoo the whole time for Minato to jump around? Is Minato going to magically go the OOC route and just run away the whole time instead of trying to get close to attack like he always does? Did Minato suddenly get full knowledge on Itachi to know to just jump around and keep his distance?

People also seem to forget that Itachi can use the very damaging MS jutsu in small bust to reduce the strain with little repercussions instead of just going full Sasuke mode with the MS jutsu.

Reactions: Like 2


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## dergeist (Mar 5, 2020)

Itachi shits on everybody with full knowledge, he's not the kind to play around with his opponents. He shit diffs Asspullnato and his ilk, jump up to mid Kage and he low diffs them, high kage he mid diffs at most. Anything above that may come with mid to high difficulty.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

MShadows said:


> A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over.
> 
> People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.



Why wouldn’t Itachi just stick to rib cage Susano’o in moments when needed and get Minato with crow/finger genjutsu Minato has no knowledge on?


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Why wouldn’t Itachi just stick to rib cage Susano’o in moments when needed and get Minato with crow/finger genjutsu Minato has no knowledge on?





You really think finger genjutsu is gonna work on Minato?


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## Kisame (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You really think finger genjutsu is gonna work on Minato?


Finger genjutsu is very powerful, it can easily troll Jonin-levels like Naruto and even FRS Naruto was wary of it. However it is weaker than 3T and it wasn't something Itachi considered against anyone worth a while (Orochimaru, FRS Naruto, Hebi Sasuke, Kabuto, Bee, KCM Naruto, Nagato).

Itachi's more dangerous genjutsu are Tsukiyomi or even 3T, but not finger genjutsu.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> You really think finger genjutsu is gonna work on Minato?



IA Naruto was still afraid of it and had clone-trained chakra control for decades to perform a chakra-control-intensive technique that Minato couldn't, so give me a logical reason why it wouldn't? The gap between Itachi and Minato, if there even is one, is a lot smaller than:

Kurenai's *mass* hand-genjutsu being able to get Kisame in a hand-genjutsu (at least for a few seconds)
C's hand-genjutsu getting MS Sasuke in a genjutsu for a moment and his teammates had to block Raikage.
Edo Hashirama's (1%) *mass *hand-genjutsu trapped Hiruzen and all his clones, despite Hiruzen being able to easily explode him.
A summoned clam's *mass *genjutsu couldn't be countered by Muu, Onoki, Gaara, etc.
There's no rhyme or reason to believing Itachi, _who was basically hyped by Ao and Shikaku as the most talented genjutsu-user ever_, having easily-defeatable *single-target* hand-genjutsu below that of Kurenai, C, Edo Hashirama at like 1% power, or a clam (most of which were mass genjutsu that worked on people in much, much higher tiers for short amounts of time, if not being wholly unable to break it).

Especially when someone with verifiably insane chakra control after decades of clone training that could also make a 1000 clones was still highly concerned about it.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Shark said:


> Finger genjutsu is very powerful, it can easily troll Jonin-levels like Naruto and even FRS Naruto was wary of it. However it is weaker than 3T and it wasn't something Itachi considered against anyone worth a while *(Orochimaru, FRS Naruto, Hebi Sasuke, Kabuto, Bee, KCM Naruto, Nagato)*.



Was Sharingan genjutsu (aside from special named MS techniques) ever stated to be more powerful against humans? It's simply a convenient tool to cast with without seals.

It would also work on Orochimaru and FRS Naruto. Literally all of the others have very strong genjutsu defense via peak-skill with dojutsu, closing their eyes and using sage sensing that is far beyond normal sensing, or internal partners ingrained in their mind and chakra system.

It's no coincidence that Kishi matched Itachi up with people with these elite genjutsu defenses like mastered Sharingans, sage sensing, or internal partners... or had him quickly beat them with genjutsu.

*No special genjutsu defenses and beaten quickly by Itachi*
Deidara
Orochimaru
IA Naruto (FRS)

*Special genjutsu defenses against Itachi*
Kakashi (mastered Sharingan)
Sasuke (mastered Sharingan)
KCM Naruto (perfect Jin internal partner)
Bee (perfect Jin internal parnter)
Nagato (mastered Rinnegan)
Sage Kabuto (closed his eyes completely, used sage sensing)


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> IA Naruto was still afraid of it and had clone-trained chakra control for decades to perform a chakra-control-intensive technique that Minato couldn't, so give me a logical reason why it wouldn't? The hype gap between Itachi and Minato, if there even is one, is a lot smaller than:
> 
> Kurenai's *mass* hand-genjutsu being able to get Kisame in a hand-genjutsu (at least for a few seconds)
> C's hand-genjutsu getting MS Sasuke in a genjutsu for a moment and his teammates had to block Raikage.
> ...





Dude you are trying to scale a genjutsu that worked on a genin (chunin MAX) to work on one of the greatest kages of all time.

The worst part is you think this is reasonable?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Dude you are trying to scale a genjutsu that worked on a genin (chunin MAX) to work on one of the greatest kages of all time.




"Chunin MAX"? You're aware that with three years less Sannin-training, Naruto had beaten a bijuu and defeated Elite Jonin Kabuto to save Tsunade?
IA Naruto was also stated to be afraid of the finger genjutsu still, and had better chakra control (after years or decades of clone-training) than Minato or most any Kages.
You also have provided zero evidence (aside from head-cannon) that says 3T Sharingan genjutsu on humans is inherently stronger than genjutsu cast with the hands.
The fixation on finger genjutsu is irrelevant in this case anyway, as Minato also has no knowledge on crow genjutsu, which FRS Naruto was also unable to break out of.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "Chunin max"? You're aware that dude had beaten a bijuu three years earlier as well as saved a gimped Sannin from being killed by Elite Jonin Kabuto?


Are you trying to be funny?



> IA Naruto was also stated to be afraid of the finger genjutsu still,



No.

And Naruto's solution to genjutsu was never chakra control, as stated by Naruto himself.



> You also have zero evidence (aside from head-cannon) that says 3T Sharingan genjutsu on humans is inherently stronger than genjutsu cast with the hands.



You lack the same evidence as well.

The difference is Itachi never used finger genjutsu outside of using it on chunin Naruto.

Considering it was one and done suggests it wasn't as potent as his other options.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 5, 2020)

Anyone under founder level if healthy


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Are you trying to be funny?



By providing feats? No. Please list another Chunin-level that has beaten a bijuu, Elite Jonin, or summons boss summons (they summoned twice). Let's establish the very basic fact that even SRA Naruto was not Chunin-level if not for PIS, let alone BoS Naruto.



ShinAkuma said:


> No.



Saying "no" doesn't re-write what Kishimoto wrote so that you can pretend Minato is magically immune. IA Naruto was clearly sweating and stressed when thinking about finger genjutsu:





ShinAkuma said:


> The difference is Itachi never used finger genjutsu outside of using it on chunin Naruto.



Most of the people Itachi fought (Kakashi, Sasuke, Nagato, Bee, KCM Naruto, and Sage Kabuto), unlike Minato, have known ace genjutsu defenses as well as large amounts of knowledge on Itachi. _The others lost so quickly that there was no need for Itachi to bother making a seal._

The only *stated* advantage 3T genjutsu has over other forms is not needing a seal. Literally everything else is head-cannon on your part, which you apparently need so your favorite characters don't lose to genjutsu with a basic argument involving feats and logic.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> By providing feats? No. Please list another Chunin-level that has beaten a bijuu and Elite Jonin.



Gamabunta could assist any chunin in that situation.

Kabuto underestimated Naruto who won on his heart and guts. Kinda the point the arc.

For a dude so interested in "feats" you seem a bit hypocritical expecting finger genjutsu to be = to 3T despite lacking any feats to support that?

What a shocker.



> Saying "no"



No.

Naruto wasn't afraid.



> Most of the people Itachi fought, unlike Minato, have known ace genjutsu defenses. The others lost so quickly that there was no need for Itachi to bother making a seal.



Kisame? He activated his MS. Think he coulda just fingered him?

Gai? He ran from Gai. You would think he coulda fingered him as well.

Nagato? Probably woulda helped if the all mighty finger genjutsu made an appearance.



> The only *stated* advantage 3T genjutsu has over other forms is not needing a seal. Literally everything else is head-cannon on your part.



You need to employ the same head canon to equate finger to 3T.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Gamabunta could assist any chunin in that situation.



What other Chunin-level has summoned something like Gamabuta twice? Once to beat a Bijuu Mode Jin, and once to save an drugged Sannin from another Sannin? I'll wait.



ShinAkuma said:


> Kabuto underestimated Naruto who won on his heart and guts.



What other Chunin-level can block an Elite Jonin from killing a Sannin, then beat an Elite Jonin that's underestimating them?



ShinAkuma said:


> For a dude so interested in "feats" you seem a bit hypocritical expecting finger genjutsu to be = to 3T despite lacking any feats to support that?



It's a really basic concept. Never in the manga has hand-genjutsu said to be inherently weaker than  basic eye-genjutsu. One requires a seal is the only stated difference, and both take control of the target's chakra system. Hence the logical conclusion is that being trapped by either is comparably strong.



ShinAkuma said:


> Naruto wasn't afraid.



Sweating with clenched teeth? I guess Minato fanboys have to argue that doesn't mean he was concerned so their favorite can win.



ShinAkuma said:


> Kisame? He activated his MS. Think he coulda just fingered him?



Kisame canonically was put in hand-genjutsu. Are you arguing that Itachi's hand-genjutsu and skill is below part one Kurenai's at this point?



ShinAkuma said:


> Gai? He ran from Gai. You would think he coulda fingered him as well.



Gai was looking at his feet. Read the manga please. It's not like Itachi couldn't beat base Gai looking at his feat in a myriad of other ways, unless you're completely deranged in your zeal to argue for Minato.



ShinAkuma said:


> Nagato? Probably woulda helped if the all mighty finger genjutsu made an appearance.



Dojutsu sees through genjutsu quickly, as shown repeatedly in the manga. This is likely why Itachi didn't use 3T genjutsu either. Does Minato have a dojutsu?


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> What other Chunin-level has summoned something like Gamabuta twice?



Chunin is a ninja rank, one that Naruto failed to achieve IN THAT VERY STORY ARC.

Nobody gives a shit about your headcanon. They didn't run the "summon a giant toad" to become a chunin at the exams now did they?



> What other Chunin-level can beat an Elite Jonin that's underestimating them?



Pretty much any of them. Underestimating is a plot point that allows far weaker opponents to defeat more powerful enemies.

The point of the story was Naruto's heart and guts, not that he was secretly a jounin.



> It's a really basic concept. Never in the manga has hand-genjutsu said to be inherently weaker than eye-genjutsu. The only difference is not needing a seal.



Yo - It's a really basic concept. Never in the manga has hand-genjutsu said to be inherently as strong as eye-genjutsu.

See, there is a lack of evidence both ways. However portrayal wise we know 3T is superior.



> Sweating with clenched teeth?



So no fear then.

Good.



> Totally not worried about it according to the Minato fanboy.



Doesn't matter to me who wins. This is simply about your shit tier logic.



> Kisame canonically was put in hand-genjutsu. Are you arguing that Itachi's genjutsu is weaker than Kurenai's at this point?



Ask Itachi.

He activated his MS.



> Gai was looking at his feet. Read the manga please.



Itachi shoulda learned toe genjutsu.



> Dojutsu sees through genjutsu quickly, as shown repeatedly in the manga.



What feats does Nagato have? I'll wait.

ROFL

Too easy.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Chunin is a ninja rank, one that Naruto failed to achieve IN THAT VERY STORY ARC.



Lol you're just insanely desperate at this point, huh? Should I make a CE Shikamaru vs CE Neji, CE Sasuke, CE Gaara, CE Lee, or KN0 thread for you?



ShinAkuma said:


> Pretty much any of them.



List a specific Chunin-level you think could beat Shukaku and Kabuto like Naruto did. Let's just establish SRA Naruto was Chunin-level before worrying about BoS or IA Naruto.



ShinAkuma said:


> See, there is a lack of evidence both ways. However portrayal wise we know 3T is superior.



Itachi equivocates his eye and hand genjutsu without making a distinction in effectiveness.


Anyway, thanks for not replying with a drop of evidence of how Minato counter finger/crow genjutsu when IA Naruto couldn't (or was scared of the former). So logically that means he gets hit by either, is down for the count for at least a few seconds (although he lacks the feats to break out), and gets taken out.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You're just insanely desperate at this point, huh? Should I made a CE Shikamaru vs CE Neji, CE Sasuke, CE Gaara, CE Lee, or KN0 thread for you?



Why don't you make the real thread - Is Oro invasion Naruto secretly a jounin?

Because that is what you're really saying.



> Like who? List a specific Chunin-level or Genin-level you think could beat Shukaku and Kabuto like Naruto did.



Ok so wait - you believe that summoning a boss toad makes you a jounin?


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Why don't you make the real thread - Is Oro invasion Naruto secretly a jounin?
> 
> Because that is what you're really saying.



It goes without saying given that he defeated an Elite Jonin and tailed beast. I have no interest in hearing head-cannon without evidence like I've been hearing from you.



ShinAkuma said:


> Ok so wait - you believe that summoning a boss toad makes you a jounin?



Are summons suddenly "not a part of someone's power"? Or is Gamabuta suddenly chunin-level? It's interesting seeing you squirm around your usual views here to keep your biases in line.

And let's not forget that Naruto defeated an Elite Jonin even without Gamabuta.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> It goes without



WTF?

You're the one who asked if you should make a thread LMAO



> Are summons suddenly "not a part of someone's power"? Or is Gamabuta suddenly chunin-level? It's interesting seeing you squirm around your usual views here.



They are a part of a ninjas power, however Naruto at that point could not consistently summon Bunta nor does he have much influence over him. It was a fluke.

Now if you want to say in that specific moment when he randomly summoned Bunta he could be considered jounin level in power, sure. However Naruto at that time was genin level in virtually every scenario.



> Keeping in mind that Naruto defeated an Elite Jonin even without Gamabuta.



You mean the story where Naruto failed to summon Bunta?

Anyway....

Underestimated.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> WTF?
> 
> You're the one who asked if you should make a thread LMAO



Sarcastically, because CE Neji vs CE Shikamaru is as obvious as asking if someone that has boss summons and beats Elite Jonin without their boss summon is Jonin-level.



ShinAkuma said:


> You mean the story where Naruto failed to summon Bunta?



What are you talking about? Naruto literally summoned Bunta to save drugged Jiraiya from Orochimaru in that fight. Then he went down to save Tsunade from Kabuto without Bunta.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Sarcastically, because CE Neji vs Shikamaru is as obvious as asking if someone that has boss summons and beats Elite Jonin without their boss summon is Jonin-level.



Ok sure.

Make a thread asking if Sannin fight Naruto is jounin level without Bunta.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok sure.
> 
> Make a thread asking if Sannin fight Naruto is jounin level without Bunta.



Why would I? He canonically beat not just a low Jonin, but an elite one. I don't need to read people's head-cannon for why that feat 'doesn't count' any more than why I need to read your head-cannon about why Minato magically instantly counters hand-genjutsu or crow-genjutsu. I'm only interested when the other side actually has evidence and decent fact-based arguments, not their interpretation of 'portrayal'.

FYI, the lowest shown Jonin (rank) is the one that the fresh 2-tomoe Obito that was stated to be weak for an Uchiha and had worse stats than CE Sasuke paneled. It should go without saying that Kabuto basically negs him, as does the guy that beat Kabuto, especially if his boss summon isn't unrestricted.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Why would I?



Because you asked if you should make a thread...???



> He canonically beat not just a low Jonin, but an elite one.



Then make the thread you "threatened" to make. Or is it dawning on you your premise in mind fumblingly stupid?



> I don't need to read people's head cannon for why that feat 'doesn't count' any more than why I need to read your head cannon about why Minato magically instantly counters hand-genjutsu or crow-genjutsu.



I haven't made any arguments in Minato's favor.

This is about your awful logic.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Because you asked if you should make a thread...???



Sarcastically.



ShinAkuma said:


> Then make the thread you "threatened" to make. Or is it dawning on you your premise in mind fumblingly stupid?



Someone defeating an Elite Jonin, tailed beast, and who can summon a boss summon being a Jonin-level is "mind fumblingly stupid", but pretending Minato has a magic counter for hand-genjutsu that's never been shown, stated, or hinted in any media is smart. Gotcha'.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Sarcastically.



Of course.

Now that you see you have no argument.



> Someone defeating an Elite Jonin, tailed beast, and who can summon a boss summon being a Jonin-level is "mind fumblingly stupid",



Make the thread.



> but pretending Minato has a magic counter for hand-genjutsu that's never been shown, stated, or hinted in any media is smart. Gotcha'.



I haven't made an argument on Minato's behalf.

This is about your garbage logic.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I haven't made an argument on Minato's behalf.



You haven't made an argument, period, for anybody. Because pOrTrAyAL cOuNtErS isn't an argument. Provide feats or scans as I have and we'll talk.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You haven't made an argument,



I know. That's what I said.

This is about your garbage tier logic.

Genin Naruto secretly a jounin? Certified garbage tier.

Finger genjutsu equal to 3T? Certified garbage tier.



> Provide feats or scans as I have and we'll talk.



LMAO

You post a scan and make a completely nonsensical assessment and think that's an argument?

Logic defines a strong argument, not scans with irrelevant wank.


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## ~Kakashi~ (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> What are you talking about? Naruto literally summoned Bunta to save drugged Jiraiya from Orochimaru in that fight. Then he went down to save Tsunade from Kabuto without Bunta.



Just as a side note, Naruto's attempt to summon Bunta *Link Removed*. Jiraiya *Link Removed* one who *Link Removed* for the three way deadlock.


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## T-Bag (Mar 5, 2020)

MShadows said:


> A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over.
> 
> People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.


you're talking about the itachi that chose the timing when to die because he was at his end.
That's not normal itachi.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

~Kakashi~ said:


> Just as a side note, Naruto's attempt to summon Bunta *Link Removed*. Jiraiya *Link Removed* one who *Link Removed* for the three way deadlock.



My bad, you're right. I thought Jiraiya couldn't use jutsu and remembered Naruto summoning after Jiraiya failed the first time (and Orochimaru/Kabuto getting worried that Naruto could do it), but Naruto also failed that time, which is a pretty funny scene looking back at it.

Reactions: Like 1


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## blk (Mar 5, 2020)

Seems like people think that Minato vs Itachi literally starts with Minato having all the kunais pre-placed, somehow having full knowledge of Itachi's skillset and its drawbacks etc, and both fighting with completely OOC strategies (i.e Minato zapping around to outlast and Itachi letting him do it by keeping V4 active till he is exhausted, without any reason to do so).

If that's how people see this fight going, it's no wonder that many think Minato > Itachi 

But obviously that's a completely unrealistic and headcanon way for the fight to go.
Minato's fighting style is to spread Kunais and go for a close quarter exchange as he did in 100% of his fights.
Itachi's fighting style is to set up feints and use Genjutsu to end the battle asap.

It's pretty obvious that, with generic manga knowledge, Minato's fighting style doesn't work well against Itachi's.

It's extremely likely, like at least 95% likely, for Minato to fall to Genjutsu in his cqc attempt.

Or to an explosive feint and lose a limb, or a crow feint with one of the crows catching him in Genjutsu.

Like Minato vs Obito, in most scenarios this is a fight that gets decided in seconds or a few minutes at best. Both of them are the "assassin type" so to speak, definitely not tanks, ranged fighters, stamina monsters, etc.

Minato has a chance against Itachi only if _he _has full knowledge, let alone if the one with full knowledge is Itachi rofl.


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> "Chunin MAX"? You're aware that with three years less Sannin-training, Naruto had beaten a bijuu and defeated Elite Jonin Kabuto to save Tsunade?


Also a side note. Aside from the insane amounts of PIS that filled this battle, Naruto never really beat Kabuto.  if not for Tsunade saving him, while several minutes later.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Veracity said:


> Also a side note. Aside from the insane amounts of PIS that filled this battle, Naruto never really beat Kabuto.  if not for Tsunade saving him, while several minutes later.



Base Naruto landing Rasengan and taking Kabuto down for the count makes me think KN0 would dominate him given KN0’s feats against Sasuke who dominated base Naruto.


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Base Naruto landing Rasengan and taking Kabuto down for the count makes me think KN0 would dominate him given KN0’s feats against Sasuke who dominated base Naruto.


I don’t agree.

But that’s not what my point was. I was being nit picky, but I’m just showing that Naruto beating Kabuto is a false narrative.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 5, 2020)

Nagato, SM Kabuto, EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto

all these names brutally destroy Itachi full knowledge or not

wank is getting back to 2012 levels lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Veracity said:


> I don’t agree.
> 
> But that’s not what my point was. I was being nit picky, but I’m just showing that Naruto beating Kabuto is a false narrative.



Kabuto was laying face-down on the ground for quite some time. I would agree that arguing semantics about whether that qualifies as “beat” is being picky.


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Kabuto was laying face-down on the ground for quite some time. I would agree that arguing semantics about whether that qualifies as “beat” is being picky.



Naruto was *literally* going to die. Even . There is no arguing semantics here. You know you would much rather be laid out on the ground for 10 minutes then die.

Naruto did not defeat Kabuto. He would have died, while Kabuto actually  away with Oro at the end.

It’s only nit-picky because it doesn’t really change your original argument much. I’m just trying to change the narrative that Naruto beat Kabuto tbh. It’s simply not true.


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## $Kakashi$ (Mar 5, 2020)

I never got why people believed Itachi told the truth here. He was a double agent for Konaha, and killed his family for Konaha (and even planned to brain wash his brother for Konaha). 

Him effortlessly soloing Jiriaya like he did Orochimaru wouldn't benefit Konaha at all, so why would he tell Kisame "Lmao yeah I can totally defeat him but I'd rather not"?. It makes far more sense in that scenario to say "Oh no he could definitely beat us so we should run" given he doesn't want to weaken Konaha.

Back in the day you could have Argued that Jiriya was on the same level as Itachi, but after the War Arc it became pretty clear to me that Itachi just didn't want to kill one of Konaha's strongest Ninja, as it provided no benefits for his goals. Hence why he ran.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Veracity said:


> Naruto was *literally* going to die. Even . There is no arguing semantics here.



This is arguing semantics because you're arguing that someone can't be "beat" if their opponent also goes down in the process. For illustration, these guys weren't any less defeated because Zabuza died afterward:


If one of those mercenaries was just on the ground bleeding but eventually recovered, that doesn't mean he wasn't "beat" before Zabuza died. It's an independent thing, being beat.

And given that Naruto _went in_ to fighting Kabuto there _with a broken leg_, the whole semantic argument about applying the word "beat" to Kabuto being put flat on his face just seems silly to bicker about when the overall point is that Naruto's feats against an Elite Jonin are above that of what a Genin/Chunin-level would be capable of.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Nagato, SM Kabuto, EMS Sasuke, KCM Naruto
> 
> all these names brutally destroy Itachi full knowledge or not
> 
> wank is getting back to 2012 levels lol



This post is ironic because Itachi saved/outperformed KCM Naruto when beating Nagato, and saved/outperformed EMS Sasuke when beating Sage Kabuto.


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> This is arguing semantics because you're arguing that someone can't be "beat" if their opponent also goes down in the process. For illustration, these guys weren't any less defeated because Zabuza died afterward:
> 
> 
> If one of those mercenaries was just on the ground bleeding but eventually recovered, that doesn't mean he wasn't "beat" before Zabuza died.



Not even close to the same situation. 

Zabuza spent a shit ton of his chakra, endurance, and health battling team Kakashi before this. The mob benefited from dealing with an already beat down Zabuza before he started taking them on. If Healthy Zabuza had battled this mob and died in the process, then yes I would 100% say that Zabuza was beaten by the mob. Clearly this isn’t the case, therefore you cannot use this as some sort of evidence as you’ve ignored other factors. 

Naruto dying 1 on 1 against Kabuto while also flooring him is not the same situation. Kabuto recovered after that resengan on his own. Naruto would have died.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Veracity said:


> Zabuza spent a shit ton of his chakra, endurance, and health battling team Kakashi before this.



And Naruto _*had a broken leg*_ before fighting Kabuto in taijutsu. I'm not interested in making excuses all day over semantics, which is why I didn't mention it initially. The point is Naruto made an Elite Jonin level eat dirt. The fact that we're arguing about the word "beat" is exactly what making this arguing about semantics.

At the end of the day, if you make an Elite Jonin level eat dirt while you have a broken leg, or if you push around a tailed beast, then you're non Genin-level (junior-level), and you're not Chunin-level (middle-level). We've seen what happens when Elite Jonin level fights 10 Chunin-levels.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

As a matter of fact, Naruto defeated a Chunin at the _very_ beginning of the manga, and Sasuke outmoved *two* Chunin even before tree-training:


Which as a refresher, is before:

The speed-training he used to blitz Zabuza clones (tree-training), the 2nd speed-training he had after _that_ to match Rock Lee (who blitzed him post-tree-training), which is all less before the _huge _boost that CS gave him on top of that, who base post-CE Naruto outperformed against partially transformed Gaara.


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 5, 2020)

Itachi with no knowledge already beat SM Kabuto, who had full knowledge except Izanami, while not being able to kill Kabuto and wanting to "save him"

Full knowledge and Itachi (if healthy) wrecks Sage Kabuto (no ET of course)


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> And Naruto _*had a broken leg*_ before fighting Kabuto in taijutsu. I'm not interested in making excuses all day over semantics, which is why I didn't mention it initially. The point is Naruto made an Elite Jonin level eat dirt. The fact that we're arguing about the word "beat" is exactly what making this arguing about semantics.
> 
> At the end of the day, if you make an Elite Jonin level eat dirt while you have a broken leg, or if you push around a tailed beast, then you're non Genin-level (junior-level), and you're not Chunin-level (middle-level). We've seen what happens when Elite Jonin level fights 10 Chunin-levels.



Bruh what hahaha. I’m not sure why you keep pushing the notion that I’m saying anything outside of *Naruto did not beat Kabuto*. Naruto clearly is above chunin level I don’t disagree. Clearly he is inferior to Kabuto, however, as serious amounts of PIS went into that fight and Naruto still lost.

Let’s also not forget that Kabuto had to go through Tsunade and Shizune before he even got to Naruto which is the primary reason he  to heal from resengan. An even more important point was that Kabuto’s control of his body was still effected by Pathway Derangement hence his , his inability to 100% use his , and the fact that he was only using chakra scalpel in one arm and a kunai.

Also the major point of that fight was that Naruto was so beneath Kabuto that the latter underestimated Naruto and was caught off guard as a result of this. ShinAkuma pointed this out and clearly it’s blatantly true. Kabuto was schooling a 100% healthy Naruto without the use of his right arm, and Jirayia literally said that Naruto was not . I mean Kabuto literally , , and was pushing Naruto around like nothing. Naruto won by a merit of guts and proving that he was stronger than your run of the mill chunin. He is not at Kabuto’s level. For you to say so is you ignoring the Narrative. That’s about as bad as me saying Itachi didn’t throw his fight against Sasuke.

Kabuto literally sat on the ground and said . Kabuto beat Naruto, I donno why I’m even arguing this.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> This post is ironic because Itachi saved/outperformed KCM Naruto when beating Nagato, and saved/outperformed EMS Sasuke when beating Sage Kabuto.


If we don't choose to acknowledge context and the fact that he was an ET zombie at the time.. then well yea we can go with your take


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## T-Bag (Mar 5, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> *Itachi with no knowledge already beat SM Kabuto, who had full knowledge except Izanami, while not being able to kill Kabuto and wanting to "save him"*
> 
> Full knowledge and Itachi (if healthy) wrecks Sage Kabuto (no ET of course)



even with ET, itachi is never unprepared. We're talking about itachi here.


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## Symmetry (Mar 5, 2020)

Strongest is Obito maybe


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Veracity said:


> Bruh what hahaha. I’m not sure why you keep pushing the notion that I’m saying anything outside of *Naruto did not beat Kabuto*.



What would you call being *beat up, face down on the ground unable to stand up* for a bit? What word would you use? I’ll use the word you want so you’ll stop arguing semantics, because god forbid that qualify as being defeated or beaten lol.



Veracity said:


> Also the major point of that fight was that Naruto was so beneath Kabuto that the latter underestimated Naruto



You don’t get intercepted, then taken down by someone ”so far beneath you.” Obviously I know Kabuto would beat base SRA Naruto in neutral circumstances, but the gap isn’t nearly as large as you or others are arguing.

You agree with me that he’s above Chunin level anyway due to those feats and others, which was ultimately the point, so really we’re hung up on semantics here.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 5, 2020)

Gin Ichimaru said:


> Itachi with no knowledge already beat SM Kabuto, who had full knowledge except Izanami, while not being able to kill Kabuto and wanting to "save him"
> 
> Full knowledge and Itachi (if healthy) wrecks Sage Kabuto (no ET of course)


He was also ET, and had the help of EMS Sasuke

do Itachi fanboys ever account for context?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> What would you call being *beat up, face down on the ground unable to stand up* for a bit? What word would you use? I’ll use the word you want so you’ll stop arguing semantics, because god forbid that qualify as being defeated or beaten lol.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It’s only arguing semantics if we’re debating the different meaning or use of a word. What you are doing here is just misusing the word completely, that’s the main problem. 

Defeat is in relation to the result compared to your opponent. There is no situation in which Kabuto could have been defeated by Naruto if the latter was in a worse condition than Kabuto in a straight 1 on 1. That isn’t defeat. You just won with heavy difficulties. 

We don’t have to debate the difference in power between Kabuto and Naruto honestly. I admitted that I was being nit picky but this was in *direct* relation to the claim that Naruto beat Kabuto. I honestly didn’t have an ulterior motives in my original post I was just correcting you. It would be like me claiming that Itachi could defeat Minato but that genjutsu would be useless. You would agree that Itachi would beat Minato but you would disagree that genjutsu is useless. Same thing here. I don’t disagree with Naruto > Chunin but Naruto did in fact not beat Kabuto.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

I’ve enjoyed debating the word with you somewhat, but I still disagree with you claiming I’m being deceitful or dumb with my usage of the word. You are only confining defeat to the opponent rather than the objective. Kabuto tried to kill Tsunade, and was firmly made incapable of doing so. He was defeated in that objective. Naruto wanted to stop Kabuto from killing Tsunade, and was victorious in doing so, even if he was going to die doing it. This is why we have terms like Pyrrhic Victory, where victories come at very high costs.

An example: was Minato “defeated” when he saved the village from Kurama? I mean in a pure sense, Minato was dead and Kurama was not. So Kurama “won” and Minato “lost”? Yet this isn’t actually the case in every sense of the word.

Another example: was Itachi “defeated” when he forced Sage Kabuto to cancel Edo Tensei? Kabuto kept living and Itachi didn’t, so that would be defeat for Itachi and victory for Kabuto going strictly by your definition of the word defeat. Is it accurate?

We’re arguing about word-usage, which is arguing about semantics. I do not believe my usage was strictly wrong as I’ve outlined above. Naruto defeated Kabuto. The victory almost cost him his life, but it was still a victory. Just like Itachi’s victory over Kabuto, or Minato’s victory over Kurama.


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2020)

Zembie said:


> Kaguya
> 
> 
> 
> Forreal tho, I'd say he can beat Obito if he knows absolutely everything about him (That he's not Madara and is just playing pretend), he'll resort to Izanami to take Obito on and might snatch a W.



If we are to believe that Itachi beats Obito because of knowledge LOL

Then we are also to believe Jiraiya beats Pain because of knowledge LOL

They are equal after all

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Shazam said:


> If we are to believe that Itachi beats Obito because of knowledge LOL
> 
> Then we are also to believe Jiraiya beats Pain because of knowledge LOL
> 
> They are equal after all



Pain was really an emaciated dude strapped in a wheelchair device that was looking pretty helpless against Sage Naruto, so I don’t know why Jiraiya being able to assassinate him with full knowledge is unbelievable either.


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Pain was really an emaciated dude strapped in a wheelchair device that was looking pretty helpless against Sage Naruto, so I don’t know why Jiraiya being able to beat him with full knowledge is unbelievable either.



Pain > Itachi or Jiraiya 

Obito > Itachi or Jiraiya 

That's really the truth. 

OT: Strongest Itachi beats with knowledge is Sage Mode Jiraiya. Because they go 50/50 imho


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Shazam said:


> That's really the truth.



That’s really your opinion.


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## Shazam (Mar 5, 2020)

Illusory said:


> That’s really your opinion.



Keep those comments to yourself. Itachi wank isn't for everyone.


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## Illusory (Mar 5, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Keep those comments to yourself. Itachi wank isn't for everyone.



I just want you to be able to realistically decipher between your opinion based on your interpretation of events, and facts stated or clearly outlined by the author. Even when I wank my hardest, I’m aware of the difference.

In any case, there is actually more strictly outlined statement-based evidence for Itachi being stronger than Obito. I can make a thread on it tomorrow if you request.

And speaking from a feat perspective and jutsu-matching, Itachi’s clone feint feats, Izanami, and fast jutsu make him a believably good counter for Izanagi and Kamui. Better than base Gai with nunchucks, in any case, who countered Obito’s basic Kamui attacks decently well.


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## MSAL (Mar 6, 2020)

Cherry said:


> He was also ET, and had the help of EMS Sasuke
> 
> do Itachi fanboys ever account for context?



How often does a villain get taken out by one person unless the character is an outlier or has just received asspull powerups? It rarely happens in shounen.

Itachi and Sasuke were also facing handicaps and you're forgetting about the context they had to fight in.

Common bs when anti Itachi tards comment.


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## Veracity (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> I’ve enjoyed debating the word with you somewhat, but I still disagree with you claiming I’m being deceitful or dumb with my usage of the word. You are only confining defeat to the opponent rather than the objective. Kabuto tried to kill Tsunade, and was firmly made incapable of doing so. He was defeated in that objective. Naruto wanted to stop Kabuto from killing Tsunade, and was victorious in doing so, even if he was going to die doing it. This is why we have terms like Pyrrhic Victory, where victories come at very high costs.
> 
> An example: was Minato “defeated” when he saved the village from Kurama? I mean in a pure sense, Minato was dead and Kurama was not. So Kurama “won” and Minato “lost”? Yet this isn’t actually the case in every sense of the word.
> 
> ...



All the examples you brought up came with sentences explaining why the defeat/victory could have a multitude of variables. Instead of clearly wording them to support your argument, they can just as easily be re-worded to align with your initial statement that Naruto beat Kabuto. Did Minato beat Obito? Yes. Did Sasuke and Itachi best Kabuto? Yes. There you go. 

If you stated that Naruto stopped Kabuto from killing Tsunade you would have a point but your initial post did not say that. You said Naruto defeated Kabuto. That is simply untrue. I have no problems with you changing the way in which you word that statement, but to act like your initial statement didn’t push the notion that Narutos abilities allowed him to best Kabuto in a battle is simply disingenuous.


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## Zembie (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> If we are to believe that Itachi beats Obito because of knowledge LOL
> 
> Then we are also to believe Jiraiya beats Pain because of knowledge LOL
> 
> They are equal after all


I rate them on the same level, so no issues for me.


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## Illusory (Mar 6, 2020)

Veracity said:


> All the examples you brought up came with sentences explaining why the defeat/victory could have a multitude of variables.



My examples were to show why your rigid definition of “defeat” that you are basing your semantic argument on is not the only one. Clearly, you can still be defeated by someone that dies even if you don’t, depending on the context. It’s disingenuous to argue otherwise. In this case, a Sannin-slaying was stopped and the assassin was crippled by a Rasengan. That is clearly a defeat for the assassin.

In the future, I can say “Naruto with a broken leg crippled an Elite Jonin” for the same impact on my argument, but make no mistake, saying the Elite Jonin was defeated is just as accurate, because he was.


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## Kai (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> If we are to believe that Itachi beats Obito because of knowledge LOL
> 
> Then we are also to believe Jiraiya beats Pain because of knowledge LOL
> 
> They are equal after all


These are both correct interpretations, although Obito would be superior to Pain IMO.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ren. (Mar 6, 2020)

MShadows said:


> A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over.
> 
> People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.


Neah they think that Edo Itachi is Itachi now LOL!


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## MShadows (Mar 6, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Neah they think that Edo Itachi is Itachi now LOL!


Didn't you know that Itachi could solo Kaguya with the no-limits fallacy sword? Or that he could take down the likes of DB characters and Galactus with finger genjutsu?


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## Ren. (Mar 6, 2020)

MShadows said:


> Didn't you know that Itachi could solo Kaguya with the no-limits fallacy sword? Or that he could take down the likes of DB characters and Galactus with finger genjutsu?


I know, read my posts of me telling the wankers that no limit fallacies are a no no for me!

but:


We also have that In OP with Zoro that said he will be the strongest SwordMan ever so they are labeling Roger the PK as a swordman


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## Illusory (Mar 6, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Neah they think that Edo Itachi is Itachi now LOL!



Less chakra regeneration, but Edos are slower than living counterparts.


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## Ren. (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Less chakra regeneration, but Edos are slower than living counterparts.


Yes but Edo can spam MS technics.

Edo Itachi stomps the Itachi that Sasuke fought.

Goes to the fight and uses Izanagi from start + Susanoo arrow + Amateratsu spam.

Alive Itachi gets defeated in 30m that way at max.


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## Illusory (Mar 6, 2020)

Ren. said:


> Yes but Edo can spam MS technics.
> 
> Edo Itachi stomps the Itachi that Sasuke fought.
> 
> ...



Well if you agree with that basic point that Edos are a somewhat slower, but have super-regeneration of chakra, then you should agree that a Healthy Itachi would outperform Edo Itachi in matches where he doesn't need to outlast someone, but a little extra speed could help land one of his deadly jutsu easier.

In this sense, I don't think there's a real problem equating Healthy Itachi with Edo Itachi in overall effectiveness against other opponents, particularly in 1v1 matches.


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## Ren. (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Healthy Itachi would outperform Edo Itachi in matches


Mate MS Itachi healthy or not has a double edge sword the MS.

Edo does not have that restriction so no.

Edo MS Itach is close to EMS without PS.


Illusory said:


> most enemies go down to one of Itachi's MS jutsu


Name me one of those?

And I mean alive Itachi!


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2020)

Kai said:


> These are both correct interpretations, although Obito would be superior to Pain IMO.



Nothing to suggest as much, speaking strictly to MS Obito as he might be able to cheese against Pain but it doesn't mean he is the superior overall of the two. Rinnegan > MS afterall


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 6, 2020)

Probably A3, Amaterasu really screws him over in matchup.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2020)

Cherry said:


> He was also ET, and had the help of EMS Sasuke
> 
> do Itachi fanboys ever account for context?


itachi wasn't even aiming to kill kabuto, and he sure as hell didn't want sasuke helping him...
but since sasuke insisted, they combined their efforts.

Dawggg, u need to be reminded itachi was kishimoto's golden boy. He never loses- even when he loses he wins. This is the guy that broke out of edo tensei's control, beat Nagato's ass quickly (typical itachi victim), beat sage mode kabuto then made him cancel edo tensei, ending a major part of the war. All without killing him. Even onoki saying whoever did it he must be a incredible shinobi.

lol have some respect when u type his name.


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Dawggg, u need to be reminded itachi was kishimoto's golden boy.



Itachi was in fact not. Ain't sure where that notion ever came from but in the (latest) 2015 Comic New York Kishimoto specifically said that after Naruro of course it was Jiraiya and I can link that if you'd like1


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## Illusory (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Itachi was in fact not.



No other toddler was said to be as wise as a Hokage.

And you think _I _wank Itachi.


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> No other toddler was said to be as wise as a Hokage.
> 
> And you think _I _wank Itachi.



Lol and even then it was Minato with the higher Academy score. 

In all fairness, let go of Itachi's dick or don't quote me anymore. We all have faves, (mine being Jiraiya) but you don't have to burn your knees up on the carpet just to speak out for your character

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 6, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> itachi wasn't even aiming to kill kabuto, and he sure as hell didn't want sasuke helping him...
> but since sasuke insisted, they combined their efforts.


And that doesn’t ignore the fact Itachi had far much access to MS jutsu then he would living. Sasuke also quite clearly helped with setting up the loop, destroying Kidomaru’s webs and Kimmimaro, and breaking out of Tayuya’s Genjutsu

not to mention he wouldn’t have been able to even manifest susanoo during white rage with the added effect of not being able to feel pain due to being ET

make it living Itachi with no EMS Sasuke = Itachi gets wiped off the face of the earth

LOL stop living Itachi gets obliterated by Nagato without help


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## Serene Grace (Mar 6, 2020)

MSAL said:


> How often does a villain get taken out by one person unless the character is an outlier or has just received asspull powerups? It rarely happens in shounen.
> 
> Itachi and Sasuke were also facing handicaps and you're forgetting about the context they had to fight in.
> 
> Common bs when anti Itachi tards comment.


Cant say much that I already said. All I can say is reread the scenes with non itachi bias lens


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## Veracity (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> My examples were to show why your rigid definition of “defeat” that you are basing your semantic argument on is not the only one. Clearly, you can still be defeated by someone that dies even if you don’t, depending on the context. It’s disingenuous to argue otherwise. In this case, a Sannin-slaying was stopped and the assassin was crippled by a Rasengan. That is clearly a defeat for the assassin.
> 
> In the future, I can say “Naruto with a broken leg crippled an Elite Jonin” for the same impact on my argument, but make no mistake, saying the Elite Jonin was defeated is just as accurate, because he was.



If you truly meant that Naruto defeated Kabuto in the sense that he stopped him from killing Tsunade then I misinterpreted what you meant. 

That is on me, my bad.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2020)

Cherry said:


> And that doesn’t ignore the fact Itachi had far much access to MS jutsu then he would living. Sasuke also quite clearly helped with setting up the loop, destroying Kidomaru’s webs and Kimmimaro, and breaking out of Tayuya’s Genjutsu
> 
> not to mention he wouldn’t have been able to even manifest susanoo during white rage with the added effect of not being able to feel pain due to being ET
> 
> ...


itachi wasn't always a walking dead man.. lol.
you saw itachi fight basically in his deathbed. he was a weakling compared to his true self., he couldnt even move straight to dodge shuriken ffs. And Edo tensei could never copy a healthy living body... ever.

Sasuke contributed because he insisted. Itachi made it clear he didn't need sasuke to fight him, itachi isnt someone who underestimates his opponents. He knew he's capable of beating him, he was more worried about sasuke in fact lol..

Lol nagato got his asss handed to him in less than a chapter the moment itachi stepped in. He figured nagato our in a matter of minutes and bumrushed him (he went down as fast as his other opponents) . It's that easy when youre itachi.
You're not beating Itachi, he proved this over and over and over again...one way or another his opponent is going down.


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> Itachi was in fact not. Ain't sure where that notion ever came from but in the (latest) 2015 Comic New York Kishimoto specifically said that after Naruro of course it was Jiraiya and I can link that if you'd like1


Doesnt matter what he said. Jiraiya obviously was no minato/itachi in terms of getting his dick sucked by everyone.


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2020)

T-Bag said:


> Doesnt matter what he said. Jiraiya obviously was no minato/itachi in terms of getting their dick sucked by everyone.



So it doesn't matter what Kishimoto said, but it matters what you think?


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## T-Bag (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> So it doesn't matter what Kishimoto said, but it matters what you think?


If you wana buy his bs and not look at things objectively yourself by all means go ahed. lol


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## Illusory (Mar 6, 2020)

Shazam said:


> So it doesn't matter what Kishimoto said, but it matters what you think?



Statement wasn’t about Jiraiya, but even if it was, Itachi had good reason to lie and Edo Itachi (who didn’t have a reason to lie because he was admitting to his arrogance) said he believed he was unstoppable in life.


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## Shazam (Mar 6, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Statement wasn’t about Jiraiya, but even if it was, Itachi had good reason to lie and Edo Itachi (who didn’t have a reason to lie because he was admitting to his arrogance) said he believed he was unstoppable in life.



I have no idea what you're referring to by quoting me


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## DaVizWiz (Mar 6, 2020)

MShadows said:


> A canon Itachi has about 10 minutes of Susano'o usage before he goes blind and his stamina is also low. All Minato has to do is jump around in circles until this happens and then it's over.
> 
> People seem to forget that the MS is very damaging and Itachi can't spam it without repercussions.


No one forgets it they just ignore it, as they ignore his guaranteed death proceeding any high difficulty/strenuous battle equating to a tie.

I like to call Itachi an old man’s 8th Gate Guy. He can tie with 2 mid kage maybe 3, while 8G Guy can tie the entire high kage tier.

If we’re talking warfield combat I call Itachi an old man’s retarded 8th Gate Guy, as Itachi would be dead before tying with a single brigade (like the one Gengetsu slaughtered off panel), while 8G Guy would tie with multiple divisions.


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Cant say much that I already said. All I can say is reread the scenes with non itachi bias lens



And all I can say is read the scenes with comprehension. Seems not many people do that since I've returned to the forum.

Its not hard to understand the context and nuances of that entire fight, if one reads it carefully, as a story.

I dont give a shit whether you like Itachi or not tbh. The irritation comes from calling people under the same fanboy umbrella when they try and analyse the battle.

If anyone needs help analyalysing, just ask and I'll help


Now have we finished with the ad hominem so we can debate properly like mature adults?


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## Serene Grace (Mar 7, 2020)

MSAL said:


> And all I can say is read the scenes with comprehension. Seems not many people do that since I've returned to the forum.
> 
> Its not hard to understand the context and nuances of that entire fight, if one reads it carefully, as a story.
> 
> ...


Ok then tell me your interpretation or perspective of the context of that fight


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Ok then tell me your interpretation or perspective of the context of that fight


 I will have to do it during my lunch I'm nearly at work so, apologies about a delay.


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Ok then tell me your interpretation or perspective of the context of that fight


Why don't you put your summary/interpretation of the fight down first, then I can rebut it with my own when I get time today?


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Cherry said:


> Ok then tell me your interpretation or perspective of the context of that fight




Okay.

So, this all started when you said that Itachi had advantages as he had Sasuke and was an edo. Yes, both those things hold some advantages, for different reasons, but let's look at it a bit closer.

*Psychology
*
 - Kabuto is a master spy and because he's a master spy, he knows how to gather information and use it against enemies.
 - We clearly see from the start of the time Sasuke enters the cave, Kabuto tries to divide the two brothers. Sasuke is still in a confused state at that time, as even though he has information on Itachi  being a double agent for konoha and under orders to annihilate the Uchiha clan, he still needs to talk to Itachi and verify the truth, so he's still in a shaky frame of mind, givne most of his life he's hated Itachi.
 - Kabuto tries this divide and conquer psychology later on, when he again probes at itachi lying to Sasuke. This time Itachi counters that by using a memory from their past, which solidifies their reformed bond. 

So clearly Kabuto has a potentia;l advantage here he can exploit with the brothers, which eventually fails, due to quick thinking and brotherly bonds.


*Ninjutsu and Techniques
*
 - Kabuto has territorial advantages that aid his ninjutsu and genjutsu. His whiterage and Muki Tensei, take advantage of the cave liek environment to force equalise and amplify his abilities, making him far more of a dangerous opponent.

 - Itachi and sasuke then have to try and work together. They haven't worked together for a long time, and this is a newborn trust between the pair.. Kabuto rightly tries to exploit the situation by pressuring both borthers at different points throughout the fight, which tests the opposite brither to react. Again, this 2vs1 can easily escalate into a double edged sword.

 - Itachi very cleverly tells Kabuto he is going to Tsukuyomi him at the beginning, which puts Kabuto on alert for a clear visual genjutsu - hence him covering his sclera and being overconfident, which blinds him to the real trump card of Izanami.

 - Most of the attacks after that are part of the genjutsu.

 - We also need to bear in mind that Itachi very clearly used his Edo form to his advantage, and Kabuto was still a threat to that via his seal.


Very basic summaries there, as I'm tired as hell, but points that emphasise it wasn't necessarily advantages all to the brothers, and the bros still had the flow of the fight under their control due to Itachi's rational thinking during the fight.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2020)

MSAL said:


> Okay.
> 
> So, this all started when you said that Itachi had advantages as he had Sasuke and was an edo. Yes, both those things hold some advantages, for different reasons, but let's look at it a bit closer.
> 
> ...


All of these ‘advantages’ the brothers had are substantial less then the advantage of being able to fight 2v1. I think is the point being made here not that Kabuto had no advantages himself


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> All of these ‘advantages’ the brothers had are substantial less then the advantage of being able to fight 2v1. I think is the point being made here not that Kabuto had no advantages himself



But I summarised in that post why that's not necessarily correct.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2020)

MSAL said:


> But I summarised in that post why that's not necessarily correct.


And I disagree; there is nothing in that post that outlines an advantage Kabuto has greater then having EMS Sasuke as a teammate; and actually I think it’s pretty silly to even begin to suggest otherwise


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> And I disagree; there is nothing in that post that outlines an advantage Kabuto has greater then having EMS Sasuke as a teammate; and actually I think it’s pretty silly to even begin to suggest otherwise



It's not all about raw power. That fight is nothing to do with raw power.


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## Turrin (Mar 7, 2020)

MSAL said:


> It's not all about raw power. That fight is nothing to do with raw power.


I never said it was about raw power; I said having an EMS user on your team taking on an enemy 2v1 is a far bigger advantage then anything you outlined, which are laughably minor advantages in comparison.

I know for a fact if the tables were turned and Itachi lose to Orochimaru and Kabuto teamup we would even be having this conversation


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## MSAL (Mar 7, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I never said it was about raw power; I said having an EMS user on your team taking on an enemy 2v1 is a far bigger advantage then anything you outlined, which are laughably minor advantages in comparison.
> 
> I know for a fact if the tables were turned and Itachi lose to Orochimaru and Kabuto teamup we would even be having this conversation



You emphasized the fact he had EMS, which means you were focusing on his power.

You're ignoring the key point. Sasuke was not allowed to attempt to kill Kabuto, therefore the use of his abilities wouldve been limited.

That fight was about Sasuke and Itachi reforming their trust and having to function as an impromptu team. They were handicapped, not Kabuto.

This is what I mean by people not reading the full context.


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## Kisame (Mar 7, 2020)

Shazam said:


> In all fairness, let go of Itachi's dick or don't quote me anymore. We all have faves, (mine being Jiraiya) but you don't have to burn your knees up on the carpet just to speak out for your character


Illusory came back recently to the NBD and started supporting Itachi again, he had to deal with a lot of passive aggressive Jiraiya fans over the years on this forum more than you did with Itachi fans here (regardless of the arguments); Itachi hasn't been getting as much support before (of course if you ignore the trolls and their opinions). It's a funny coincidence that he came back at a time where Jiraiya is a hot topic (decent amount of support, decent amount of heaters) and where his pro-Itachi and your anti-Itachi approaches/threads have clashed (you're just less tolerant of him because he isn't actually a troll).


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## Gin Ichimaru (Mar 7, 2020)

EMS Sasuke actually didn't do much after Kabuto went into Sage Mode

Kabuto "got" Itachi a few times in that fight:

Shapeshifting cavern - Itachi protected sasuke instead of himself. He showed he could react to it; if he's alive he simply protects himself instead of Sasuke

White Rage - Was able to protect Sasuke. There is no basis that Edo Body renders him immune to light/sound vibrations, just because Sasuke couldn't handle it doesn't mean Itachi couldn't

Tayuya genjutsu - fastest method was partner method. With knowledge bunshin clones can do the same

kabuto chopped him in half at the end - because he went out of his way to prep Izanami, which he wouldn't do if he wasn't going out of the way to "save" him

Sasuke also helped with Kidomaru's webs/bone shit, but tbh healthy Itachi can do the same

The other issues are Itachi's stamina, which is improved with Edo Body - but I don't think he did anything he can't do while alive if healthy, considering vs Hebi Sasuke he used Tsukuyomi, 1-2 amaterasu, and Susanoo to block Kirin/fight Orochimaru.

This is all with Itachi not being allowed to use Totsuka blitz, yasaka beads, or any offense at all, and instead to try replicating the same moves in CQC to set up Izanami, and also without knowledge.


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## Serene Grace (Mar 7, 2020)

@MSAL you brought some good points, I’ll reply as soon as I can

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Mar 8, 2020)

MSAL said:


> You emphasized the fact he had EMS, which means you were focusing on his power.
> 
> You're ignoring the key point. Sasuke was not allowed to attempt to kill Kabuto, therefore the use of his abilities wouldve been limited.
> 
> ...


It doesn’t matter if he couldn’t use his full power or not; simply having him as a teammate is > then any advantage Kabuto had. Talking about things like reforming their trust: would be relevant for examination if Kabuto had his own Teammate that he trusted implicitly, but that’s not the case.

Itachi is the only character in the series where I have seen people argue he is disadvantaged by having teammates (well Kakashi at times too); it’s not surprising he is also the most Fan-wanked


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## MSAL (Mar 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> It doesn’t matter if he couldn’t use his full power or not; simply having him as a teammate is > then any advantage Kabuto had. Talking about things like reforming their trust: would be relevant for examination if Kabuto had his own Teammate that he trusted implicitly, but that’s not the case.



Huh? that makes absolutely zero sense. Of course it makes a frigging difference! How many times have we seen it in shounen, where it's harder to capture someone and not kill them. Sasuke was intrinsically nerfed in what he could do, because of the context, and he had to trust Itachi in how the fight was played out.

How you can honestly say it makes no difference is absolutely beyond me. It only proves my point you are just thinking about the power aspect and about the name "EMS".



I





> tachi is the only character in the series where I have seen people argue he is disadvantaged by having teammates (well Kakashi at times too); it’s not surprising he is also the most Fan-wanked



Interesting, that Naruto told the village to stay away from him when he was fighting Pain then, isn't it? By your logic, his teammates would've been able to make a difference...

Were team Gai able to lock down an armless Deidara? That was 4 vs 1.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2020)

MSAL said:


> Huh? that makes absolutely zero sense. Of course it makes a frigging difference! How many times have we seen it in shounen, where it's harder to capture someone and not kill them. Sasuke was intrinsically nerfed in what he could do, because of the context, and he had to trust Itachi in how the fight was played out.
> 
> How you can honestly say it makes no difference is absolutely beyond me. It only proves my point you are just thinking about the power aspect and about the name "EMS".
> 
> ...


Of course it makes a difference, that wasn’t my point, don’t straw man me; my point is that it’s not a bigger advantage then having a powerful teammate and getting to fight 2v1; nothing out weighs that advantage. Itachi by having EMS Sasuke as a partner had the single biggest advantage in that fight 

The Village isn’t EMS Sasuke; and a Team failing to beat someone doesn’t mean they didn’t have the advantage (Gai would have done worse or just as badly on his own to kick down Deidara)


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## QuallatiQuayage68 (Mar 9, 2020)

Apprentice KCM Naruto/MS Sasuke.

The former he does due to him being a good matchup (Tactician VS Brawler), and the enhanced clones are significantly dispatched in the beginning of the fight, as he has this tendency of producing his Clones instantly on entering battle start. Rasenshurikens are effortlessly tanked by V4, and up, whereas Genjutsu is a significant threat, as you'd have to know whether you're in an illusion to logically break out hence he might get caught, and issue Rasengan Variants on illusory Itachi's, who cleans up the fraction of clones left prior.

I'd say Mid-High difficulty. 

Better experience, tactical aptitude, Susano'o tools, and CQC capabilities win it in the latter.


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## Shirohige da (Mar 9, 2020)

Nagato(1v1)


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## MSAL (Mar 9, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Of course it makes a difference, that wasn’t my point, don’t straw man me; my point is that it’s not a bigger advantage then having a powerful teammate and getting to fight 2v1; nothing out weighs that advantage. Itachi by having EMS Sasuke as a partner had the single biggest advantage in that fight
> 
> The Village isn’t EMS Sasuke; and a Team failing to beat someone doesn’t mean they didn’t have the advantage (Gai would have done worse or just as badly on his own to kick down Deidara)



1) What advantage did it provide them, when Sasuke was unable to go all out with his EMS, nd actually, was subservient to Itachi's plans?

Your point only stands if Sasuke made a difference or actively fought with his EMS.

2) it's not a straw man. I explained why in that context 2 vs 1 didnt necessarily mean a bigger advantage..That's what it's about.


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## Final Fantasy (Mar 9, 2020)

Not being able to use lethal tactics against a guy like Kabuto, who can avoid genjutsu and doesn't take damage through normal means, is a much bigger advantage than Itachi had. Not to mention Itachi had to protect Sasuke and use a highly impractical genjutsu to win.


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## Turrin (Mar 9, 2020)

MSAL said:


> 1) What advantage did it provide them, when Sasuke was unable to go all out with his EMS, nd actually, was subservient to Itachi's plans?
> 
> Your point only stands if Sasuke made a difference or actively fought with his EMS.
> 
> 2) it's not a straw man. I explained why in that context 2 vs 1 didnt necessarily mean a bigger advantage..That's what it's about.


1- Itachi relied on Sasuke to setup each point of Izanami that allowed him to actually utilized the Jutsu on Kabuto; and he relied on Sasuke to counter Kabuto S4 Jutsu, which otherwise would have defeated him.

2- No you didn’t; you explained why there were other advantages Kabuto had; not why they were bigger then 2v1; again I can’t help but believing we wouldn’t have this conversation with any character other then Itachi; that having an entire teammate is not a massive advantage above these other minor ones.


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## Illusory (Mar 9, 2020)

How is having your opponents specifically try to not kill you and having nearly full knowledge on them “a minor advantage”.

Everybody ought to know that Itachi vs Kabuto isnt a clear match if Kabuto has zero knowledge. There’s a reason Kabuto immediately went Sage Mode (unlike he did against Kages and backup) and closed his eyes completely.


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## MSAL (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Itachi relied on Sasuke to setup each point of Izanami that allowed him to actually utilized the Jutsu on Kabuto; and he relied on Sasuke to counter Kabuto S4 Jutsu, which otherwise would have defeated him.



Stuff he could've done with MS, so not entirely related to EMS. 

The whole point of that battle from the Uchiha perspective was to get those estranged brothers* co-operating with each other again and working as a team, trusting each other*, hence the flashback scene with the boar snubbing out any sense of psychology Kabuto could throw at them, to try and divide them.

We have no idea how Itachi would've played out the engagement if he was on his own.



> 2- No you didn’t; you explained why there were other advantages Kabuto had; not why they were bigger then 2v1; again I can’t help but believing we wouldn’t have this conversation with any character other then Itachi; that having an entire teammate is not a massive advantage above these other minor ones.



Terrain advantage, knowledge and non-bloodlusted opponents are all force equalisers in kabuto's favour. The brothers did not have a decisive advantage, *just because* Sasuke was there.

You are going to have to reason a lot better than that if you want to debate properly.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

MSAL said:


> Stuff he could've done with MS, so not entirely related to EMS.
> 
> The whole point of that battle from the Uchiha perspective was to get those estranged brothers* co-operating with each other again and working as a team, trusting each other*, hence the flashback scene with the boar snubbing out any sense of psychology Kabuto could throw at them, to try and divide them.
> 
> ...


1- EMS played a roll in Sasuke not getting exhausted and being able to spam Mangekyo Techniques; but whether you want to count it or not is superfluous to the point that having Sasuke as a Teammate was the single biggest advantage in that fight.

And yes the fight was about the brothers coming together as a team to win a battle they otherwise could not individually. You speculating that Itachi could somehow still do it himself miss the point of that entire character arc for both brothers

2- They aren’t equalized; having Sasuke there is still a way bigger advantage. Itachi mentioned the battlefield advantage in the context of Kabuto could have setup traps which he didn’t; at most it helped with Muki Tensei; but Muki Tensei had no impact on the battle; as Itachi and Sasuke defended it. Kabuto also couldn’t go full force on Sasuke or Itachi as he was trying to capture them as well; sure he could apply a bit more force to Itachi due to Edo Buffs, but then Itachi also got the advantage of Edo Buffs himself. So both of those advantages didn’t matter in this fight or both parties had the same amount. The only advantage that isn’t equalized is Itachi having an entirely other high level Ninja in his team

Again MsLa you need to look at a mirror and ask yourself if we would even be having this conversation if Orochimaru and Kabuto together beat Itachi; and roles were reversed. Your better then this Homie


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> How is having your opponents specifically try to not kill you and having nearly full knowledge on them “a minor advantage”.
> 
> Everybody ought to know that Itachi vs Kabuto isnt a clear match if Kabuto has zero knowledge. There’s a reason Kabuto immediately went Sage Mode (unlike he did against Kages and backup) and closed his eyes completely.


Itachi has nearly full knowledge too. Just stop wi  this


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Itachi has nearly full knowledge too. Just stop wi  this



Lol I don’t know why people take you seriously when you say things like this.

Kabuto didn’t know about Izanami. He knew about Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano’o, Totsuka, crow clones, his fire jutsu, etc. Pretty much everything but Izanami worth knowing, Kabuto knew.

Itachi didn’t know about literally all of Kabuto’s sage techniques shown, his Sage Mode, his 5 cell-fusion abilities, as well as lacking knowledge on the huge number of techniques Kabuto didn’t use e.g. his specific Edos, Manda 2, etc. That’s so far from “full knowledge too” that it’s insane.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Lol this is easily the most biased thing I’ve seen in the last week. Kabuto didn’t know about Izanami. Itachi didn’t know about literally all of Kabuto’s sage abilities techniques shown, fusion abilities, etc.


Itachi and Sasuke combined had almost complete knowledge on Kabuto abilities. Both had a great deal of knowledge on Orochimaru Jutsu which formed the basis of Kabuto’s arsenal and Sasuke had knowledge on Kabuto Jutsu & Suigetsu/Karin abilities. Itachi also has knowledge of Sage Mode. 

The only Techniques they may not have had knowledge on were Sound 4 and obviously Haguki/Muki Tensei. However Sasuke could have known about S4 abilities from his time with Orochimaru; ether way no of these Techniques was there ever an issue or knowledge being useful with the potential exception of Tayuya Genjutsu, which with knowledge they may have been able to prepare for better; however that’s easily offset by Kabuto lack of knowledge on Izanami


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Itachi and Sasuke combined had almost complete knowledge on Kabuto abilities. Both had a great deal of knowledge on Orochimaru Jutsu which formed the basis of Kabuto’s arsenal and Sasuke had knowledge on Kabuto Jutsu & Suigetsu/Karin abilities. Itachi also has knowledge of Sage Mode.
> 
> The only Techniques they may not have had knowledge on were Sound 4 and obviously Haguki/Muki Tensei. However Sasuke could have known about S4 abilities from his time with Orochimaru; ether way no of these Techniques was there ever an issue or knowledge being useful with the potential exception of Tayuya Genjutsu, which with knowledge they may have been able to prepare for better; however that’s easily offset by Kabuto lack of knowledge on Izanami



Oh did I miss the panel where Sasuke shared all his knowledge of Hebi and S4 (*if* he even knew) with Itachi in detail before the fight because he knew Kabuto had those abilities?


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Oh did I miss the panel where Sasuke shared all his knowledge of Hebi and S4 (*if* he even knew) with Itachi in detail before the fight because he knew Kabuto had those abilities?


Did you miss the panel where they were a team unit; facing Kabuto together.

Bottom line: Itachi had knowledge on Edo Tensei and SM; so he knew how to approach the fight and counter this with Izanami. Itachi on his own would have only lost 2 times in that fight, once was to Tayuya Genjutsu; and the other was to Oral Rebirth Feint. Itachi has knowledge on Oral Rebirth; so the only instance where knowledge could have helped is against Tayuya Genjutsu.

In Kabuto case he knew about Itachi Genjutsu so he knew what to do to counter; covering his eyes and using SM sensing. The only time he lost the fight was Izanami; where knowledge would have definitely  helped.

So again at best Itachi does better with knowledge of Tayuya Genjutsu which is offset by Kabuto doing better with knowledge of Izanami. Knowledge did not matter outside of this


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> Did you miss the panel where they were a team unit; facing Kabuto together.



Did you miss the part where it’s not full knowledge if you don’t know about it? “B-b-but someone else on the team maybe knew about some of what they learned Kabuto has during the fight!” doesn’t make it anywhere in the ballpark of full knowledge.

Did Bee magically have full knowledge on all Nagato’s techniques when fighting him with Naruto? Or is that just a completely shameful argument on my part stemming from pure bias concerning a match?

The fact is Kabuto knew all of their best techniques except Izanami (which isn’t that good) _going into that battle _while they knew zero of any of Kabuto’s techniques that had any effect on them in the battle, including his Sage Mode, all his sage techniques, and all his cell-fusions. It’s completely ridiculous that you’re even debating this point.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Did you miss the part where it’s not full knowledge if you don’t know about it? “B-b-but someone else on the team maybe knew about some of what they learned Kabuto has during the fight!” doesn’t make it anywhere in the ballpark of full knowledge.
> 
> Did Bee magically have full knowledge on all Nagato’s techniques when fighting him with Naruto? Or is that just a completely shameful argument on my part stemming from pure bias concerning a match?
> 
> The fact is Kabuto knew all of their best techniques except Izanami (which isn’t that good) _going into that battle _while they knew zero of any of Kabuto’s techniques that had any effect on them in the battle, including his Sage Mode, all his sage techniques, and all his cell-fusions. It’s completely ridiculous that you’re even debating this point.



Hold up....

Was it stated Kabuto had full knowledge in that fight?

Protecting your eyes vs Sharingan isn't a "full knowledge" qualifier as Gai knew to avid eye contact as far back as part 1.


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Hold up....
> 
> Was it stated Kabuto had full knowledge in that fight?
> 
> Protecting your eyes vs Sharingan isn't a "full knowledge" qualifier as Gai knew to avid eye contact as far back as part 1.


Well Sasuke trained under Orocimaru, Kabuto was also there, I think he should've known his abilities
For Itachi, Kabuto knew that the susanoo was a thing, and said to Itachi that he died lying, so this would even imply that he knows about Itachi's mission?
I guess the only thing Kabuto didn't know was Izanami


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Well Sasuke trained under Orocimaru, Kabuto was also there, I think he should've known his abilities
> For Itachi, Kabuto knew that the susanoo was a thing, and said to Itachi that he died lying, so this would even imply that he knows about Itachi's mission?
> I guess the only thing Kabuto didn't know was Izanami



Ok, so it wasn't established that Kabuto had full knowledge in the narrative?

I don't see why training BOS or Hebi Sasuke would give Kabuto full knowledge on MS and EMS? The two version of Sasuke are not related.

Kabuto is a smart guy, so he obviously has some knowledge on his opponents, just not full. Also Itachi and Sasuke had knowledge as well as Kabuto spilled the beans on Edo. (for some dumb reason)

I can agree Kabuto knew more about his opponents, but nobody had full knowledge.


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Ok, so it wasn't established that Kabuto had full knowledge in the narrative?
> 
> I don't see why training BOS or Hebi Sasuke would give Kabuto full knowledge on MS and EMS? The two version of Sasuke are not related.
> 
> ...


If you mean like something said: "Kabuto knows their abilyties" then no

Beacause all the MS / EMS gave to Sasuke are black flames and susanoo, Idk if he had or not knowledge on the flames, but it doesn't matter beacause both Itachi and Sasuke weren't going for a OHKO move

Kabuto was also one of the best if not the best spy we've seen in the manga, so him having intel from various places would also be a possibility, at kumogakure they knew of amaterasu, and it's not like Itachi only used it there, so even knowlege on amaterasu is a possibility

Yeah the brothers also had knowledge on him, right at the start Sasuke also tells Itachi that the snake can sense heat

Well Kabuto surely didn't knew of Izanami, so ok, but he should've knew of everything else, or at least we know he that he knew of everything the brother used in that fight bar Izanami


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> If you mean like something said: "Kabuto knows their abilyties" then no



I don't know?



> Beacause all the MS / EMS gave to Sasuke are black flames and susanoo, Idk if he had or not knowledge on the flames, but it doesn't matter beacause both Itachi and Sasuke weren't going for a OHKO move



Sure.

So not full knowledge?

If you accept he didn't know some things then what is the argument here?



> Kabuto was also one of the best if not the best spy we've seen in the manga,



What the fuck did you just say!? 

Listen......listen......let's be clear I like you, but if you ever and I mean EVER say somebody was a better spy than Jiraiya I will be dropping 100000 Neg bombs on you daily until you repent and join the house that Jman built - The Bathhouse.





> so him having intel from various places would also be a possibility, at kumogakure they knew of amaterasu, and it's not like Itachi only used it there, so even knowlege on amaterasu is a possibility



I'm sure he had intel on them, just not full.



> Yeah the brothers also had knowledge on him, right at the start Sasuke also tells Itachi that the snake can sense heat







> Well Kabuto surely didn't knew of Izanami, so ok, but he should've knew of everything else, or at least we know he that he knew of everything the brother used in that fight bar Izanami



Or maybe he was just ready for multiple options. Not necessarily that he knew per se but he was prepared. You know - expect the unexpected.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't know?


Ok?



ShinAkuma said:


> Sure.
> 
> So not full knowledge?
> 
> If you accept he didn't know some things then what is the argument here?


That you said:


ShinAkuma said:


> Hold up....
> 
> Was it stated Kabuto had full knowledge in that fight?
> 
> Protecting your eyes vs Sharingan isn't a "full knowledge" qualifier as Gai knew to avid eye contact as far back as part 1.


And seemed to me that you were impling that Kabuto knew less than just Izanami and maybe Amaterasu, so I responded specifing what Kabuto should know and right at the end I confirmed that he still doesn't know of Izanami so it's not like I'm impling he had full knowledge, just wanted to set the "how much" of his knowledge



ShinAkuma said:


> What the fuck did you just say!?
> 
> Listen......listen......let's be clear I like you, but if you ever and I mean EVER say somebody was a better spy than Jiraiya I will be dropping 100000 Neg bombs on you daily until you repent and join the house that Jamn built - The Bathhouse.


Please no I wanna live, base yomi numa spare my soul

(Was expecting: "EH nO, bLaCk ZEtzu iS THE BEST SPY, he PlaNNeD eVeRithyIng!!!"
... those fucking aliens.... )



ShinAkuma said:


> I'm sure he had intel on them, just not full.


Agree



ShinAkuma said:


> Or maybe he was just ready for multiple options. Not necessarily that he knew per se but he was prepared. You know - expect the unexpected.


But when they defended with the susanoo, Kabuto was like: " ! so this is the susanoo", so he knew what that was, Itachi told Kabuto he wanted to use Tsukuyomi on him and Kabuto was smirking
Amaterasu is the only thing that doesn't have a direct proof of Kabuto knowdledge on it, actually also the yata mirror
Now while one can argue that Kabuto knew amaterasu I don't think it's important in this setting beacause was "resticted" and wasn't used anyway, in the fight Kabuto had with the brothers he knew all the justu they used bar Izanami, so no full knowlege, but very close


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Did you miss the part where it’s not full knowledge if you don’t know about it? “B-b-but someone else on the team maybe knew about some of what they learned Kabuto has during the fight!” doesn’t make it anywhere in the ballpark of full knowledge.
> 
> Did Bee magically have full knowledge on all Nagato’s techniques when fighting him with Naruto? Or is that just a completely shameful argument on my part stemming from pure bias concerning a match?
> 
> The fact is Kabuto knew all of their best techniques except Izanami (which isn’t that good) _going into that battle _while they knew zero of any of Kabuto’s techniques that had any effect on them in the battle, including his Sage Mode, all his sage techniques, and all his cell-fusions. It’s completely ridiculous that you’re even debating this point.


As I said your splitting hairs; there was no point in the fight where Sasuke had knowledge he needed to share with Itachi; and didn’t. 

I just outlined how they knew nearly all of Kabuto Techbiques; can you explain to me how a lack of knowledge on any Technique besides maybe Tayuya Genjutsu actually hurts those 2 in this battle.


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Ok?
> 
> 
> That you said:
> ...



I'm implying that Kabuto does not have full knowledge.

The argument I am concerned with is that Kabuto had some wild advantage due to some omniscient "full knowledge". That is what I disagree with.




> Please no I wanna live, base yomi numa spare my soul



Very well you are spared!





> (Was expecting: "EH nO, bLaCk ZEtzu iS THE BEST SPY, he PlaNNeD eVeRithyIng!!!"
> ... those fucking aliens.... )



You know how many bathhouses Jiraiya has peeped on and not been caught. Clearly he is the alpha spy!



> Agree








> But when they defended with the susanoo, Kabuto was like: " ! so this is the susanoo", so he knew what that was,



Wouldn't this actually imply it's the first time he's seen it, or at least the Bros version of it?

Being aware of something does not equal knowledge of it or at least not relevant to combat knowledge.



> Itachi told Kabuto he wanted to use Tsukuyomi on him and Kabuto was smirking



Is that because he knows tsukuyomi specifically or because he had already prepared himself to defend any genjutsu?



> Amaterasu is the only thing that doesn't have a direct proof of Kabuto knowdledge on it, actually also the yata mirror



Probably Totsuka as well.



> Now while one can argue that Kabuto knew amaterasu I don't think it's important in this setting beacause was "resticted" and wasn't used anyway, in the fight Kabuto had with the brothers he knew all the justu they used bar Izanami, so no full knowlege, but very close



They knew what he had to offer as well. He's got snake powers and he told them everything he could about Edo. They didn't know he was a sage. No sage knowledge/no Izanami knowledge. However Itachi is aware of sages and their capabilities, so....

If Kabuto had a knowledge advantage it wasn't by alot.


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm implying that Kabuto does not have full knowledge.
> 
> The argument I am concerned with is that Kabuto had some wild advantage due to some omniscient "full knowledge". That is what I disagree with.


Ah I see but the bros also had some knowledge
He was prepared and had more knowledge on them, than them on him, but I don't think this really played a factor, Itachi was going for Izanami from the start and Kabuto didn't have knowledge on that so it's like he got tricked



ShinAkuma said:


> Very well you are spared!
> 
> 
> 
> You know how many bathhouses Jiraiya has peeped on and not been caught. Clearly he is the alpha spy!






ShinAkuma said:


> Wouldn't this actually imply it's the first time he's seen it, or at least the Bros version of it?
> 
> Being aware of something does not equal knowledge of it or at least not relevant to combat knowledge.


Yes, that's likely the first time he has actually seen a susanoo, but he knows what a susanoo is (either from prevoius knowledge or from when he fought it while he was controlling Nagato)



ShinAkuma said:


> Is that because he knows tsukuyomi specifically or because he had already prepared himself to defend any genjutsu?


The closed eyes? They work aganist visual genjutsu, so I guess the least we can say for sure is that he knew that Tsukuyomi was a visual genjutsu
Though I really think he should have knowledge on it like as amaterasu, Itachi didn't keep those jutsu a secret, but I see your point I guess I don't really have evidence to say that Kabuto knows exactly what Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu does



ShinAkuma said:


> Probably Totsuka as well.


Well Itachi used it to seal Nagato, and Orocimaru was searching it, Kabuto should have know of that, but ok the narrative doesn't say "Kabuto knew what totsuka was"



ShinAkuma said:


> They knew what he had to offer as well. He's got snake powers and he told them everything he could about Edo. They didn't know he was a sage. No sage knowledge/no Izanami knowledge. However Itachi is aware of sages and their capabilities, so....
> 
> If Kabuto had a knowledge advantage it wasn't by alot.


Itachi wasn't aware of the abilityes of the sound four though, while maybe Sasuke was, still they were pretty much useless
So, sure


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Ah I see but the bros also had some knowledge
> He was prepared and had more knowledge on them, than them on him, but I don't think this really played a factor, Itachi was going for Izanami from the start and Kabuto didn't have knowledge on that so it's like he got tricked



I'm of the opinion the location was his biggest advantage.




>








> Yes, that's likely the first time he has actually seen a susanoo, but he knows what a susanoo is (either from prevoius knowledge or from when he fought it while he was controlling Nagato)



Well he knew of Madara's legendary status so he is aware of the legendary MS techs.




> The closed eyes? They work aganist visual genjutsu, so I guess the least we can say for sure is that he knew that Tsukuyomi was a visual genjutsu



Not really a hard thing to know TBH. Sharingan is known for visual genjutsu.



> Though I really think he should have knowledge on it like as amaterasu, Itachi didn't keep those jutsu a secret, but I see your point I guess I don't really have evidence to say that Kabuto knows exactly what Tsukuyomi and Amaterasu does



Kabuto knows MS is a threat and that MS can do many things, no doubt. The specifics however are difficult to say.




> Well Itachi used it to seal Nagato, and Orocimaru was searching it, Kabuto should have know of that, but ok the narrative doesn't say "Kabuto knew what totsuka was"



Kabuto lost his uplink the moment Nagato was hit, so he might not even know what hit him.



> Itachi wasn't aware of the abilityes of the sound four though, while maybe Sasuke was, still they were pretty much useless
> So, sure


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> I'm of the opinion the location was his biggest advantage.


Agree



ShinAkuma said:


> Well he knew of Madara's legendary status so he is aware of the legendary MS techs.


It's a possibility I guess, though we'll never know for sure



ShinAkuma said:


> Not really a hard thing to know TBH. Sharingan is known for visual genjutsu.


Yeah that's why I said "at least we can say"



ShinAkuma said:


> Kabuto knows MS is a threat and that MS can do many things, no doubt. The specifics however are difficult to say.


Would the combined facts that:
- Danzo knew of Tsukuyomi abilityes
- Amaterasu was known by kumogakure
- Kabuto was a spy who was in every village and i nthe akatsuki
- Orocimaru was in akatsuki when Itachi was
- Itachi used amaterasu in his fight with KCM Naruto and Bee

Be not a proof but give a good change that Kabuto knew of them? One thing that goes aganist the amaterasu argument would be that Jiraiya didn't knew of it



ShinAkuma said:


> Kabuto lost his uplink the moment Nagato was hit, so he might not even know what hit him.


Kabuto lost the control the moment Itachi sealed him, not when he pierced him, and Itachi straight up said "This is the sword of totsuka I'm gonna seal yo ass in the drunk world" or something like that


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Agree
> 
> 
> It's a possibility I guess, though we'll never know for sure
> ...




Itachi was speaking to Nagato at that point, implying Kabuto lost the uplink. Nagato also says he's sorry, showing us Kabuto was no longer in control.



Don't disagree with anything else you said.


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Itachi was speaking to Nagato at that point, implying Kabuto lost the uplink. Nagato also says he's sorry, showing us Kabuto was no longer in control.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't disagree with anything else you said.


Right, Nagato eyes also change color the moment he's pierced
But the fact that Kabuto is showed to have lost the control in the next chapter after Nagato is completely sealed inside the gourd bothers me

Like do we suppose that the Kabuto scene was in the past? Or that the chakra link actually broke when the sealing ended and Kabuto could just not control him?
Trough if Kabuto lost the control then he should've lost the link, like for Itachi

Your thoughts?


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## ShinAkuma (Mar 11, 2020)

trocollo said:


> Right, Nagato eyes also change color the moment he's pierced
> But the fact that Kabuto is showed to have lost the control in the next chapter after Nagato is completely sealed inside the gourd bothers me
> 
> Like do we suppose that the Kabuto scene was in the past? Or that the chakra link actually broke when the sealing ended and Kabuto could just not control him?
> ...



Maybe Kabuto lost the data uplink once Nagato was hit but didn't lose Nagato as a "piece" on his board of pawns until he was sealed?

That scene could also simply be showing Kabutos reaction at the time he lost the uplink?

Difficult to say.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trocollo (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Maybe Kabuto lost the data uplink once Nagato was hit but didn't lose Nagato as a "piece" on his board of pawns until he was sealed?
> 
> That scene could also simply be showing Kabutos reaction at the time he lost the uplink?
> 
> Difficult to say.


Yeah, well "difficoult to say" if fine for me, I guess the most probable one is your point

Reactions: Like 1


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

ShinAkuma said:


> Hold up....
> 
> Was it stated Kabuto had full knowledge in that fight?
> 
> Protecting your eyes vs Sharingan isn't a "full knowledge" qualifier as Gai knew to avid eye contact as far back as part 1.



We know Kabuto had knowledge of Tsukuyomi, Amaterasu, Susano’o, Totsuka Blade, katons, kunai curving, clones, his Sharingan crow, etc. due to tuning in for Edo Itachi’s past fight and that all being shown or mentioned there.


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I just outlined how they knew nearly all of Kabuto Techbiques; can you explain to me how a lack of knowledge on any Technique besides maybe Tayuya Genjutsu actually hurts those 2 in this battle.




Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about Sage Mode, or they could have tried to blitz him before he ran away to hide and enter the mode.
Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know Kabuto had Suigetsu, Jugo, and Karin’s abilities to enter Sage Mode quickly and hide better until Kabuto told them and had already done it.
Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about White Rage, which caused Itachi to block for Sasuke. The fact that Kabuto didn't just try it again suggest with knowledge it's not so bad.
Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about the Cave Reanimation, which caused Itachi to take a hit for Sasuke out of brotherly concern. Amaterasu hard-counters with knowledge.
Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about Sound genjutsu, which Itachi countered on-the-fly rather than be ready for it. Clones looking at one another counter with knowledge.
Itachi and Sasuke didn't know about any of the Sound 5 Sage ninjutsu (three big techniques) before it was thrown at them and they used Susano'o to cope. Easier to evade things with knowledge.
Itachi and Sasuke clearly didn’t know Kabuto could shoot out of the mouth of the Orochimaru-looking snake as it surprised them both. Wouldn't work with knowledge.
Itachi and Sasuke didn’t even know Kabuto could punk Sasuke's katons with a suiton. Likely wouldn't have worked with knowledge.
They didn’t know he had any of the jutsu he had, basically. That's the opposite of full knowledge, especially considering that just like Naruto didn't magically telepath all his knowledge about Nagato to Bee, there was no magical telepathic conversation that transferred the little knowledge Sasuke may have known to Itachi.

On the other hand, Kabuto knew Itachi's entire heavy-hitting arsenal from the Nagato fight he was watching, as nearly all of his known jutsu were either shown, or KCM Naruto verbally warned Bee against - in the case of Tsukuyomi. Sure, there's finger genjutsu, but Kabuto closing his eyes arguably suggests he knew that too.

What happens if Kabuto lacks knowledge on all of Itachi's big techniques like Itachi lacked knowledge on all of Sage Kabuto's big techniques, and he goes into the fight actually wanting Kabuto dead? Tsukuyomi ends it if used, Amaterasu potentially ends it with a face shot, Totsuka might end it, crow genjutsu might end it, etc.


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 11, 2020)

The strongest this Itachi beats is Itachi without knowledge that Itachi has full knowledge.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about Sage Mode, or they could have tried to blitz him before he ran away to hide and enter the mode.
> Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know Kabuto had Suigetsu, Jugo, and Karin’s abilities to enter Sage Mode quickly and hide better until Kabuto told them and had already done it.
> Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about White Rage, which caused Itachi to block for Sasuke. The fact that Kabuto didn't just try it again suggest with knowledge it's not so bad.
> Itachi and Sasuke didn’t know about the Cave Reanimation, which caused Itachi to take a hit for Sasuke out of brotherly concern. Amaterasu hard-counters with knowledge.
> ...


1/2- They couldn’t find where Kabuto was due to Suigetsu Technique; also a blitz wouldn’t do anything anyway.

3- Yeah so nothing came off that because it was countered 

4- Yes I mentioned the Sound Genjutsu

5- They were countered so again nothing came of that 

6- Itachi had seen Sasuke use Oral Rebirth to shoot out of his chest; he was aware that Oral Rebirth can be used to be spit out of anywhere from the body. So he had knowledge here 

7- Which has zero relevance; as Izanami took effect right after that; or even before then 

—-
Again I’m only seeing knowledge mattered maybe when it came to the Sound Genjutsu as I said; in all other instances it didn’t make a difference.


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> also a blitz wouldn’t do anything anyway.



Base Kabuto isn't fast enough to dodge Susano'o or Amaterasu in a full-knowledge fight at that distance.



Turrin said:


> 6- Itachi had seen Sasuke use Oral Rebirth to shoot out of his chest; he was aware that Oral Rebirth can be used to be spit out of anywhere from the body. So he had knowledge here



Sasuke didn't shoot out of his chest. He shot out of his mouth. Kishi just hid it for the fangirls. It's called _Oral_ Rebirth. And neither brother knew Kabuto could shoot out of that thing's mouth.



Turrin said:


> Again I’m only seeing knowledge mattered maybe when it came to the Sound Genjutsu as I said; in all other instances it didn’t make a difference.



That's not what we're debating about. We're debating that Kabuto had a large knowledge advantage, knowing nearly all of Itachi's most important techniques going into the battle, while Itachi knew almost nothing about Kabuto's techniques going into battle. A second, just as important factor, is that Itachi wasn't trying to kill Kabuto with Amaterasu or Totsuka which would IMO work with knowledge. And obviously, in a no-knowledge match, Tsukuyomi or even lower level genjutsu would work just great on base Kabuto.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> Base Kabuto isn't fast enough to dodge Susano'o or Amaterasu in a full-knowledge fight at that distance.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- Which wouldn’t do anything; they needed to hit him with Izanami. 

2- No he shot out of his chest. 

3- Yes we are debating about a knowledge ‘advantage’, and I’m saying nothing Itachi was unaware of beside the sound Genjutsu advantaged Kabuto


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## Illusory (Mar 11, 2020)

Turrin said:


> 1- Which wouldn’t do anything; they needed to hit him with Izanami.



You're arguing against one obvious handicap with another obvious handicap.

e.g. "the knowledge advantage wasn't an advantage because they were also restricted to not killing Kabuto!!"

Completely silly. It's two advantages.



Turrin said:


> 2- No he shot out of his chest.



No, he did not.


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## Turrin (Mar 11, 2020)

Illusory said:


> You're arguing against one obvious handicap with another obvious handicap.
> 
> e.g. "the knowledge advantage wasn't an advantage because they were also restricted to not killing Kabuto!!"
> 
> ...


We are talking about if any Knowledge ‘advantaged’, existed, or to put it another way if and when Knowledge actually made a difference in ‘this’ fight. Because the parameters of ‘this’ fight was to capture Kabuto; Blitzing was never an option; and therefore knowledge in the instance your referring to didn’t make a difference.

I agree that having to capture Kabuto did make a difference; and was a disadvantage of the Uchiha Brothers (though Kabuto had the same exact one); but were not discussing that disadvantage, were talking about Knowledge.

But as I said even with that aside the Uchiha Brothers couldn’t blitz Kabuto anyway since Suika no Jutsu was used to hide his location; so the point is irrelevant no matter what, making this entire side discussion superfluous.

So back on topic; there is no other instance where lack of knowledge advantage Kabuto other then ‘maybe’ in the case of Tayuya Genjutsu; but then we know for a ‘fact’ that Kabuto lack of knowledge on Izanami advantaged the brothers; so at best they are equalized.


—-

And yes he did shoot out of his chest we blatantly see that in the Manga:


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## Illusory (Mar 12, 2020)

Turrin said:


> I agree that having to capture Kabuto did make a difference; and was a disadvantage of the Uchiha Brothers (though Kabuto had the same exact one); but were not discussing that disadvantage, were talking about Knowledge.



And if you ignore the parameter of them having to capture Kabuto and focus on the knowledge disparity, then it clearly becomes another advantage for Kabuto.



Turrin said:


> But as I said even with that aside the Uchiha Brothers couldn’t blitz Kabuto anyway



When they first walked into the cave and talked with Kabuto for a bit, they could have.



Turrin said:


> And yes he did shoot out of his chest we blatantly see that in the Manga:



I'm not seeing it. You circled his hand, which makes the hole above him. Then a gooey Sasuke crawls out the other side through the hole, with the implication being he used ORAL Rebirth just like Orochimaru.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2020)

Illusory said:


> And if you ignore the parameter of them having to capture Kabuto and focus on the knowledge disparity, then it clearly becomes another advantage for Kabuto.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1- But that wasn’t the fight, so it’s irrelevant 

2- Yeah and Kabuto could have used Suika no Jutsu as soon as they were approaching but he decided to talk too; nether side would have ever done this because it’s a story and to drive the drama both parties had to talk. That had nothing to do with any advantage or disadvantage 

3- Look at the last panel on the right; he’s coming from the chest of the the Oral Rebirth you can see this clearly


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