# How Big CST compared to Hashirama's Buddha?



## Trojan (Aug 14, 2015)

and how much is it going to effect the Buddha?

Looking at it recently, the size of the Buddha and it's effect does not seem to come any where close to the CST, not even a fraction of it. Or that how it appears to me at least as of right now. 

First. the Boss Summon are around the size of the Bijuus


and then we know that the Boss Summons fits in the place between the Hokage's building, and the Wall. 



Now, if we take a look at that place which fits a Bijuu, it really is nothing compared to the village
It's just this part

from this

from that!



Now, even if say full Kurama is bigger than the other Bijuu,  and assumed he will take not only the
place between the building and the wall, but the entire thing (which is being generous) 


and the Buddha to be as tall as the mountain (which is much higher than the Hokage Building)
Link removed

Is this really, a bigger damage 

than this? 




-----------

Note: If you're going to say something dumb/irrelevant/rude then don't, and leave peaceful. It is not hard.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 14, 2015)

You mean Shinsuusenju?


----------



## ARGUS (Aug 14, 2015)

CST is big but its lucky to even scratch SS 
because *at best* its stronger than a standard full kyuubis TBB, 
and 12 of them coated in PS blades failed to bust the structure completely, 

so CST still doesnt do shit


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 14, 2015)

A CST might reach the shinsuusenju's ankle the height of that thing is just unreal. Not to mention it got arms around the size of mountains spread everywhere on it's back.

It doesn't even need to move to defend itself from CST either. The attack can't hurt it.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 14, 2015)

If its big toe exploded you'd get a CST.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2015)

CST will cover a larger area but remains insignificant to budda


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

So, most/all people here believe Hashirama's Buddha is bigger than the entire village of Konoha? 



ARGUS said:


> CST is big but its lucky to even scratch SS
> because *at best* its stronger than a standard full kyuubis TBB,
> and 12 of them coated in PS blades failed to bust the structure completely,
> 
> so CST still doesnt do shit



How did you come to that conclusion despite the MASSIVE different in size and effect?



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> A *CST might reach the shinsuusenju's ankle the height of that thing is just unreal.* Not to mention it got arms around the size of mountains spread everywhere on it's back.
> 
> _It doesn't even need to move to defend itself from CST either. The attack can't hurt it._



@Bold, CST several hundreds/thousands of times bigger than shinsuusenju. It's not really even close. 

@Undeline. Still no where near Konoha's size whatsoever. if we are being EXTREMELY generous, it's half the size of the Hokage's mountain. 

@Italic. No.


----------



## Mercurial (Aug 15, 2015)

ARGUS said:


> CST is big but its lucky to even scratch SS
> because *at best* its stronger than a standard full kyuubis TBB,
> and 12 of them coated in PS blades failed to bust the structure completely,
> 
> so CST still doesnt do shit



Not to mention that 100% Kurama is far bigger than every other Bijuu.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 15, 2015)

These are some panels with both the Kyuubi and large sections of Konohagakure both in the panel for comparison: [1][2]

And for comparisons sake this was the size of one of Shinsuusenju's hands[1]

There are likely discrepancies in scale though so that's just one counter view. Kind of comes with the territory of drawing battle scenes. I personally think Kyuubi was meant to be much larger than Gamabunta though,


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

The first 2 panels only show the spot where Kurama is at tho, unlike with the panel from Pain's attack
where it shows the ENTIRE village. 



> I personally think Kyuubi was meant to be much larger than Gamabunta though,


Full Kurama is larger, there is no doubt, but not to the point where he Gamabunta is an ant
1

as I mentioned in the OP, the regular Bijuu and the Summon Bosses are on the same level
and they fit in. Now, I was being generous with full Kurama, and assumed that he is several times bigger
to take this entire place


Even if we assumed that the Buddha is this size (which again is being EXTREMELY generous)


That's still nothing in comparison really. Heck, even If we exclude those panels. This is the VOTE
1
that's CLEARLY not even close to be compared to the village. You can even cross that in 1 jump. 
1
1

Which I think clearly indicates that Pain's CST is MUCH bigger, and its effect is MUCH stronger as well than
Hashirama's Buddha...


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 15, 2015)

There's no discrepancy in the panel with Gamabunta though Hussain. In that panel you posted above Kurama's head alone is almost the size of Gamabunta's whole body. 

[1] 
Gamabunta basically straddled a much larger entity's head much in the same way a Dad would let his child ride on his head and shoulders.
That image doesn't take into account Kurama's body or the size of its tails either. So even using that scan I'd still say Kurama is supposed to be significantly larger than Gamabunta.


----------



## Icegaze (Aug 15, 2015)

Copy pasting assumes Kishi is consistent with his scaling which he has never been once 
So not sure the point of cuting and pasting different scans together for scale 

The only thing that can be scaled is what is on that scan specifically 

Eg: boss summons In part 1 were far larger looking than in part 2 . 

However their size relative to the summoner hasn't changed much. 

Only way scaling can be done 

All we know is PS or mokujin can sit comfy on budda head


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 15, 2015)

Kurama's shown to be bigger than the Budha's head. It cannot fit in there.

Even if Kurama's several times larger than Gamabunta, the Budha's not as big as Konoha. Even though i suppose it's taller than the Hokage's Mountain.

However, CST's area of effect is far, far bigger (not in height, but why cannot Pain use one vertically? .

Either way, is by damaging the Budha we talk about, Deva flew far above the Budha. He can strike the statue on the head and hit Hashirama.

Yeah, i said it. Deva's going to hit Hashirama with CST .


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 15, 2015)

And to think that was an attack dealt by a Deva Path who had fought before hand while being controlled by a far away emaciated Nagato, who was also channeling chakra into 6 different paths before the massive attack.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

sanninme rikudo said:


> And to think that was an attack dealt by a Deva Path who had fought before hand while being controlled by a far away emaciated Nagato, who was also channeling chakra into 6 different paths before the massive attack.



He did a massive jutsu as well other than that which is much bigger than mountains


The Hashirama Wank comes in massive because we have seen it against another powerful attack like the PS. People simply assume that for whatever the reason may be, PS won't be effected by the gravity, nor would the TBB be effected either. Simply because we haven't seen them against each other directly as we have seen Hashirama's Buddha and the PS.

Otherwise, I think it's obvious that Nagato's attacks scale is much higher/bigger than Hashirama's.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 15, 2015)

And Madara's

I agree with CT pulling the statue or PS. However, PS and the Budha should carry more than enough firepower to destroy the core. Or, at the very least, to get out to safety.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

I honestly can see that with PS easier because it's a single slash with powerful force. the Buddha however, depends on hitting too many times. It will probably make it at the end of the day, but I really don't think it's as easy as people make it out to be.

Perhaps if it were attacked directly because the CT is completely formed or whatever.


----------



## sanninme rikudo (Aug 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> He did a massive jutsu as well other than that which is much bigger than mountains
> 
> 
> The Hashirama Wank comes in massive because we have seen it against another powerful attack like the PS. People simply assume that for whatever the reason may be, PS won't be effected by the gravity, nor would the TBB be effected either. Simply because we haven't seen them against each other directly as we have seen Hashirama's Buddha and the PS.
> ...


Yeah, since we most likely won't ever see these two Jutsus interact, Hashi for some reason, gets the benefit of the doubt. Evidently, the same goes with Madara. 

On top of that, when there's a battle including CT, the opponent automatically gets the knowledge to attack the core. I'm pretty sure that was a feat to promote and heighten Itachi's already impressive intelligence.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

Well, to be honest, figuring the CT weakness is not that hard to begin with. It's the first thing Kurama did, and attacked it with his TBB. Sasuke saw it for the first time when madara used it as well, and he attacked it right away. 

But Hashirama is presented as the same type as Narudo in term if intelligence, so who knows...


----------



## DaVizWiz (Aug 15, 2015)

The scaling of Hashirama's techniques are relatively inconsistent. 

You could argue that forever if you wanted.

The Buddha hand grappling 100% Kurama makes it look massive.

The Buddha hands being the size of Kurama's (and Madara's) PS Blade TBBs makes it look significantly smaller.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

DaVizWiz said:


> The scaling of Hashirama's techniques are relatively inconsistent.
> 
> You could argue that forever if you wanted.
> 
> ...



The Buddha according to the Databook has an AoE from short to mid range. On other words
0 to 10 m.

If you think Konoha's size it 10m long, then there is no helping you. 

Note: I said the Buddha's AoE, not its actual size, so pay attention to that. The Buddha itself is taller, but no matter how tell it is, it's not even close to the size of a fraction of konoha.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> The Buddha according to the Databook has an AoE from short to mid range. On other words
> 0 to 10 m.
> 
> If you think Konoha's size it 10m long, then there is no helping you.
> ...



In the manga - the main canon - it has an AoE far above 0 to 10 meters.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> In the manga - the main canon - it has an AoE far above 0 to 10 meters.



Please show me the panel where was it written that it's AoE is more. 

Especially since his argument was about " inconsistent. "


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 15, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Please show me the panel where was it written that it's AoE is more.
> 
> Especially since his argument was about " inconsistent. "



Please, stop trolling and re-read the manga.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 15, 2015)

Looks like 10m to me.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

@StarWanderer

And? 
those punches are happening right where the Buddha is! 
and when the Databook says its short-mid range, it means that the  length of its hands/punches reaches that much.

Just like how the Rassengan is short-range, but the damage it does the to ground  is bigger than the jutsu itself
See when Minato/Narudo floored Obito with the Rassengan.
Rasenshuriken could cut through it.
Link removed

In addition to that, we have seen what that attack created, and it's nothing compared to the size of Konoha.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 15, 2015)

> and when the Databook says its short-mid range, it means that the length of its hands/punches reaches that much.


*
Facepalm.*

Kurama was as big as Wood Golem. Now, take a look at this.



The hands, which are most likely 10+ meters long, are going off of Buddha and go on a far greater distance, as it was shown in the manga.

Saying that Buddha's AoE range is only 0 - 10 meters is an obvious trolling.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 15, 2015)

It seems no matter how much I explain it's pointless.

So, to save both of our times. The Buddha being short-mid range* IS OFFICIAL*!!
whether you like it or not does not matter really because your opinion on that matter has Zero Value. 

That's how Kishi sees it. Get over it.


----------



## TehDarkDarkOfPerdition (Aug 15, 2015)

To remove possible butt hurt here, your argument is that the Budda's attack range is 0-10, being that it can't attack things that aren't directly near it.

What Star's argument is that the Budda's sheer mass is bigger than 0-10, meaning it can attack well over that.

Your both right, just that your missing the context of it. My left hand has a range of zero, but my left hand can still reach my right hand by moving it to my right hand. My left hand has more range that it can reach my right, but the space my left hand exists in is zero.

In other words, Budda can only affect what the Budda can touch, but the Budda's Mass lets it reach a much bigger distance.


You people need help.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 16, 2015)

Hussain said:


> It seems no matter how much I explain it's pointless.
> 
> So, to save both of our times. The Buddha being short-mid range* IS OFFICIAL*!!
> whether you like it or not does not matter really because your opinion on that matter has Zero Value.
> ...



My opinion is backed up with manga, which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> any Databook in terms of *canon*. 

It is pretty much visible that Chōjō Kebutsu's range is a lot larger than 0 to 10 meters. Stop trolling. 

And there are lots of false statements in Databooks which were contradicted by manga, i can give you lots of examples, if you want.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 16, 2015)

Seems bigger based on your OP.

But that's probably the weakest CST in existence. We know that if Nagato used it, especially when he's not chakra deprived, it would completely surpass God Realm's CST in AoE and power. 
God Realm's CST was from a large distance away from a chakra deprived Nagato, think about that.

Now obviously a CST from Madara would be insanely more powerful than that.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Seems bigger based on your OP.
> 
> But that's probably the weakest CST in existence. We know that if Nagato used it, especially when he's not chakra deprived, it would completely surpass God Realm's CST in AoE and power.
> God Realm's CST was from a large distance away from a chakra deprived Nagato, think about that.
> ...



ST is bigger, there is no doubt about it. Only a Hashirama-tard would say otherwise.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> ST is bigger, there is no doubt about it. Only a Hashirama-tard would say otherwise.



ST is useless against Shinsuusenju anyway.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

lol, no. 



> Shinra-tensei (All-Nature Repulsion).
> Ninjutsu, Keke-genkai, offensive, defensive, close range.
> Users:Nagato
> Invisible hand of God, that repels anything in creation!
> ...


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> lol, no.



By "useless" i meant it cant do any damage to Shinsuusenju. CST is used, Shinsuusenju is repelled, most likely a little bit, but it keeps going. Plus, as i remember, the ST's limit after using CST gets longer. 

By the way, numbers are irrelevant, size is irrelevant, but what about it's weight?


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

Why wouldn't do any damage? It did extreme damage to the village. 
The Buddha is going to get destroyed by it. 



> the ST's limit after using CST gets longer.


I don't know how is that relevant to this topic to be honest.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

Hussain said:


> Why wouldn't do any damage? It did extreme damage to the village.
> The Buddha is going to get destroyed by it.
> 
> 
> I don't know how is that relevant to this topic to be honest.



Village is not as durable as Shinsuusenju. Even weaker mokuton constructs, such as Wood Human and Hobi Technique's hands, could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama and PS's sword, which can cut mountains in one swing.

But i agree that CST's AoE range is bigger than Shinsuusenju. Now my post is relevant to the topic.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

> [=StarWanderer;54189870]Village is not as durable as Shinsuusenju.


Indeed. It's far more more than a tiny Buddha (compared to the village). It's like saying an ant
is more durable than a dinosaur! 


> Even weaker mokuton constructs, such as Wood Human and Hobi Technique's hands, could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama and PS's sword, which can cut mountains in one swing.



they stop the sword from its side. Not the same as stopping it from its sharp side. 


> But i agree that CST's AoE range is bigger than Shinsuusenju. Now my post is relevant to the topic.



Good. ^^


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

> Indeed. It's far more more than a tiny Buddha (compared to the village). It's like saying an ant
> is more durable than a dinosaur!



Juubidara is an ant compare to the village, but guess what - village with non-chakra infused materials, which could be destroyed by almost anyone is more durable than a Juubi Jin, because it is bigger, but got destroyed by CST. So CST destroys Juubidara. Nice logic out there, Hussain. 



> they stop the sword from its side. Not the same as stopping it from its sharp side.



Wat?

Anyway, the mere swing of that sword produces a shockwave which can cut mountains. Yet the swing was stopped by mokuton much weaker than Shinsuusenju. 



> Good. ^^



Yeah.

But Shinsuusenju is not a like an ant compare to CST.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

> =StarWanderer;54189962]Juubidara is an ant compare to the village, but guess what - village with non-chakra infused materials, which could be destroyed by almost anyone is more durable than a Juubi Jin, because it is bigger, but got destroyed by CST. So CST destroys Juubidara. Nice logic out there, Hussain.



There is really nothing to suggest that Madara won't be effected by CST to begin with. You're talking about a guy who got cut in half by a sword twice, and a naked hand went right though at as a butter.

Not as if your comparison makes any sense to begin with. We have latterly seen the woods getting destroyed/cut off by several different attacks.   Hashirama's Buddha is not different, the reason why it was able to attack Madara's PS is because of the sheer size of it and numbers that make up for the durability.
see here
here
If you pay close attention to the panel, you would see Madara's attacks destroying all the hands in
there way and reaching to the end, and you can see the destroyed arms. For example, see this attack, and all the arms in its way getting destroyed


Note: in case the pic does not work: Y'all are jelly of mah waifu status.
It simply is not big enough to cover all the Buddha's arms. Otherwise, if the arms as strong enough
to stop it, then the TBB with the sword would have never reached that place. Don't you think? 

However. In this case, since the CST is much bigger than the Buddha, and it has no opening in between, the ENTIRE thing is attacked *all at once*! I think there is
a clear different. 



> Wat?
> 
> Anyway, the mere swing of that sword produces a shockwave which can cut mountains. Yet the swing was stopped by mokuton much weaker than Shinsuusenju.



Think of it this way
here
Narudo is stoping the sword from the sides because it's not sharp. However, if he did it from the sharp side his hands will get cut off.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 17, 2015)

> But i agree that CST's AoE range is bigger than Shinsuusenju. Now my post is relevant to the topic.


I'm not sure if you honestly believe that though StarWanderer. 
I'd be very surprised if CST's aoe was bigger than shinsuusenju; granted I'm not committed enough to argue for pages on end about the matter but I'll probably make one post to show my position.


----------



## Lawrence777 (Aug 17, 2015)

Crudely put this together to illustrate my point:

*Spoiler*: __ 








To be fair that's CT though mind you, I don't know how big CST is or even whether it's smaller or larger than CT. 
Eyeballing it, CT's probably bigger than original Kyuubi's size, maybe twice as big? Which in turn is only around the size of two of shinsuusenju's hands, and the structure has a ton of hands. [1]

So SS could probably grab CT out of the air with three hands, four hands tops via scaling the Kyuubi.

CST would have to be hugely bigger than CT for it to be bigger than the whole body + legs +armback pack of Shinsuusenju. We're talking tens of times bigger, and CST simply isn't that much larger than CT if at all larger.

So that's why I believe SS is bigger than CST. Respectfully though we all have preconceived notions(me included) and I'd be a fool to bet on changing anyone's opinion.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

CT is far bigger than "twice" as big.
The smoke in this page is where Kurama was before Minato resealed it again
1

and that CT was after Nagato was drained as hell. I don't think its as big as Konoha.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

> There is really nothing to suggest that Madara won't be effected by CST to begin with. You're talking about a guy who got cut in half by a sword twice, and a naked hand went right though at as a butter.



That sword got through Madara when he was flying in high speed. The bullet itself cannot harm your body. It is very little and not sharp. However, if it moves at a very high speed, it can hurt you. Juubidara moved in a high flying speed. And we know how fast Juubi Jins can be. That was the reason why it got through him.



As for Obito, well...

*Kamui.*



> Not as if your comparison makes any sense to begin with. We have latterly seen the woods getting destroyed/cut off by several different attacks. Hashirama's Buddha is not different, the reason why it was able to attack Madara's PS is because of the sheer size of it and numbers that make up for the durability.
> see here
> healing powers
> If you pay close attention to the panel, you would see Madara's attacks destroying all the hands in
> there way and reaching to the end, and you can see the destroyed arms. For example, see this attack, and all the arms in its way getting destroyed



Hashirama's wood can be different in terms of durability.

And you forgot how Wood Golem, a weaker construct, caught full Kurama's Bijuu Dama, which would have got right through Konoha buildings like butter. They are not chakra-fused at all and lots of characters could go through simple rocks.





> Note: in case the pic does not work: Link removed
> It simply is not big enough to cover all the Buddha's arms. Otherwise, if the arms as strong enough
> to stop it, then the TBB with the sword would have never reached that place. Don't you think?



The swords prevented Buddha from catching them, however, Hashirama's Wood Golem, a weaker construct, could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama with it's *bare hand*. 



And that's not only one demonstration of his wood's durability. Why Kurama couldnt get out of Wood Dragon? Why Naruto's Kurama Avatar couldnt get out of it? A creature, so strong it can destroy buildings with one punch, cant tear Wood Dragon apart, or do anything to it?



> However. In this case, since the CST is much bigger than the Buddha, and it has no opening in between, the ENTIRE thing is attacked all at once! I think there is
> a clear different.




Not the entire thing, but the lower part of it. 

And no - CST has no feats to be even close to remotely damaging Shinsuusenju. Hashirama's weaker construct couldnt be destroyed by full Kurama and his half, his weaker construct could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama with it's bare hand without any damage, and his weaker Hobi Technique was said, by the Databook by the way, to have *unrivalled sturdiness*. 



> Think of it this way
> healing powers
> Narudo is stoping the sword from the sides because it's not sharp. However, if he did it from the sharp side his hands will get cut off.



That sword doesnt create mountain-busting shockwave in one swing.

PS's sword, however, does. Yet no damage to Hashirama's mokuton was recieved back there. 

CST wont even scratch Shinsuusenju.



> Crudely put this together to illustrate my point:
> Spoiler:
> 
> 
> ...





CST looks a little bit bigger.

But the true purpose of this thread was to downplay Hashirama's abilities and troll Hashi's fans. Hussain trolls like that a lot. The difference in size, however, doesnt make CST strong enough to even scratch Shinsuusenju.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

> Sasuke only switch his body and the target as in Kawarimi. The word was not flying in high speed or any of what you said.



He was flying with high speed and Sasuke simply put blade in front of him. Juubidara moved in a very high speed to take Sasuke's aye, but the blade got in his way. Watch my scans again.



> The TBB are in different sizes and power. the one Kurama used against the Wooden human was not even charged, and it was the size of its mouth only, and it was able to destroy the Wooden Dragon in its way.



A little difference. Which doesnt make it a lot weaker, especially after seeing it's explosion. That TBB would have gone through Konoha village easily. But it was stopped by Wood Golem.

Shinsuusenju is a lot stronger, bigger chakra construct than Wood Golem. 



> I think there is an obvious size different between the one in your post which he used to attack konoha, and the one in this scan which he used to attack Hashirama. I hope you can see the different
> because I don't feel like taking a screenshot now.



A little difference, which doesnt make it a lot weaker Bijuu Dama, especially when the explosion looked almost the same. It would have gone through simple buildings and rocks easily, but was stopped by Wood Golem.



> and how can you catch the gravity?



You know what i am talking about, Hussain.

Wood Golem could catch full Kurama's TBB without any damage taken. Shinsuusenju is a lot bigger and stronger chakra construct. It is more than durable enough to withstand CST.



> Kurama cut though it actually.
> 
> and Narudo destroyed it using only speed
> healing powers



Yeah, after Hashirama stopped using it, thus stopped infusing chakra in it.

Plus, why Kurama couldnt get out of it earlier, with it's physical power? 



Why do you think in that scan, Naruto destroyed it? I can see Wood Dragon's head going vertically. And why Kurama Avatar couldnt get out of it? Why Hachibi couldnt get out of it?



> You just agreed the CST is bigger. I am not sure if you're being a retard now or just trolling.



I meant it's AoE is wider, bigger. Not by much, but bigger. CST goes horisontally, it will affect only a lower part of Shinsuusenju. It may push it away a little bit, but it wont do any damage at all.



> and what feats does Kurama or the Buddha have against something of CST size exactly?



Kurama's TBB could go through buildings, which CST easily destroyed, like knife through butter. And TBB can vaporise a mountain.

CST has a large AoE, but it has no feats of destroying a chakra construct as durable as Shinsuusenju. It destroyed buildings and chakra-unfused constructs.



> When those hands got attacked from the PS's sword sharp side they got cut off.
> healing powers
> as you can see in the bottom panel. Try to use your brain.



Those hands stopped PS blade's *shockwave*, not just the blade itself. 

Anyway, that's irrelevant. CST has no feats of affecting chakra constructs durable enough to stop full Kurama's Bijuu Dama without any damage. It destroyed simple buildings, ground - materials without any chakra whatsoever.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 17, 2015)

> [=StarWanderer;54191246]He was flying with high speed and Sasuke simply put blade in front of him. Juubidara moved in a very high speed to take Sasuke's aye, but the blade got in his way. Watch my scans again.


We have no clue how fast Madara was exactly. That's only assumption of yours. Needless, to say, it still does not prove anything. The Raikage is MUCH weaker than JJ Madara, and he survived the speed of light, which JJ madara was obviously not as fast as that, which also means your point is invalid.  


> A little difference. Which doesnt make it a lot weaker, especially after seeing it's explosion. That TBB would have gone through Konoha village easily. But it was stopped by Wood Golem.
> 
> Shinsuusenju is a lot stronger, bigger chakra construct than Wood Golem.


Your saying the different between the Kurama's size, and its mouth size is  little? 
Not sure if I can take you seriously at this point. You're clearly trolling. 

- Yeah, just like the one was used in konoha is much bigger and stronger. 


> A little difference, which doesnt make it a lot weaker Bijuu Dama, especially when the explosion looked almost the same. It would have gone through simple buildings and rocks easily, but was stopped by Wood Golem.


Except it is not a little. I am not sure if your blind or not, but this
straight
is clearly several times bigger than this
straight
the tiny TBB was handful to the Golem. 

the rest is based on your assumption completely. Not to mention, the problem of this attacks is really
the explosion, not itself.  



> You know what i am talking about, Hussain.
> 
> Wood Golem could catch full Kurama's TBB without any damage taken. Shinsuusenju is a lot bigger and stronger chakra construct. It is more than durable enough to withstand CST.


If course there will be no damage of catching it, because the damage happens from the explosion! 
Do you see Nrudo getting damage because he was pushing it?
straight
Are you telling me that KCM Narudo can take that attack if it exploded on him? 

- SS did not show any kind of durability feats whatsoever. All the hand got destroyed as I have
already shown you.  



> Yeah, after Hashirama stopped using it, thus stopped infusing chakra in it.
> Plus, why Kurama couldnt get out of it earlier, with it's physical power?
> 
> 
> Why do you think in that scan, Naruto destroyed it? I can see Wood Dragon's head going vertically. And why Kurama Avatar couldnt get out of it? Why Hachibi couldnt get out of it?


Where the hell did you get the idea of Hashirama stopping his chakra from? Why would he even think of doing that? Is it really THAT hard to accept his cute little dragon got cut in half? 

Hashirama used that dragon at that moment. Kurama destroyed its face and cut it in half. It really that simple. It's not rocket science! 

Or are you telling me Kurama showed have destroyed it before it even get used? 


> I meant it's AoE is wider, bigger. Not by much, but bigger. CST goes horisontally, it will affect only a lower part of Shinsuusenju. It may push it away a little bit, but it wont do any damage at all.


ST does not go "horizontally" necessarily. The user can manipulate it how he wants.  



> Kurama's TBB could go through buildings, which CST easily destroyed, like knife through butter. And TBB can vaporise a mountain.
> 
> CST has a large AoE, but it has no feats of destroying a chakra construct as durable as Shinsuusenju. It only destroyed buildings and chakra-unfused constructs.



- Ok? How does that prove Kurama can take it? Look how much damage Kurama got from Narudo's
FRS
straight
straight
when regular ST destroy the FRS easily as well. So, what you said does not really say much if at all.

- Again, we have no durability feats for SS to begin with, nor were we told that it has X amount of durability. This just leads us to what I said earlier which is people believe in this nonsense about hashirama for the fact that we haven't seen the Jutsu clash durably, but that's where common sense should be used. 

For example. We haven't see Hashirama's Buddha Vs Kaguya's huge Gedu-Dama. Are you going
to argue that Jedu-dama can't harm an ant unless we see them directly against each other? 

The same logic can be reversed. We have never seen Hashirama's Buddha, or Kurama's tiny TBB
against the CST or even the regular ST, so why should we give them the benefit of the doubt and not
the CST when they are on the same boat?  



> Those hands stopped PS blade's *shockwave*, not just it's blade.



you think the shockwave is as deadly/strong as the blade itself?
I guess you agree the Kages's bodies are more durable than Hashirama's wood since they were not
cut in halves after the shockwaves.

btw, getting cut in half is not the same as being able to stop something. That's plain ignorance. 
for example, if a fast coming car hit a guy on the street, and that guy died, you would say he stopped
the car? 


> Anyway, that's irrelevant. CST has no feats of affecting chakra constructs durable enough to stop full Kurama's Bijuu Dama without any damage. It destroyed simple buildings, ground - materials without any chakra whatsoever.



Indeed. SS has no feats of affecting a chakra gravity that is strong enough to erase an entire village from existing.

----
but yeah, we will agree to disagree. Thanks for the debate, surprisingly it was not as bad as I thought it would be!


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 17, 2015)

> We have no clue how fast Madara was exactly. That's only assumption of yours. Needless, to say, it still does not prove anything. The Raikage is MUCH weaker than JJ Madara, and he survived the speed of light, which JJ madara was obviously not as fast as that, which also means your point is invalid.



An assumption, you say?



And that's about Juubito's speed. Juubidara had the same Juubi's chakra as Juubito + Edo Hashirama's Sage Mode.

That jutsu transfers objects with that speed without destroying them. And Raikage, who survived it, almost got himself killed in a fight with Edo Madara. Which means your point is invalid.

Anyway, it is irrelevant.



> Your saying the different between the Kurama's size, and its mouth size is little?
> Not sure if I can take you seriously at this point. You're clearly trolling.
> 
> - Yeah, just like the one was used in konoha is much bigger and stronger.



That Bijuu Dama was as big as Kurama? Maybe you should watch that scan more attentively. Also, watch this one.



It wasnt as big as Kurama himself.



> Except it is not a little. I am not sure if your blind or not, but this
> Juubidara's left side
> is clearly several times bigger than this
> Juubidara's left side
> ...



The Kurama himself was in the background. That's why it looked as big as Kurama. But in fact, it wasnt. 

The CST's ability to destroy something that can stop Bijuu Dama is your assumption. CST has no feats of destroying chakra constructs that durable.



> If course there will be no damage of catching it, because the damage happens from the explosion!
> Do you see Nrudo getting damage because he was pushing it?
> Juubidara's left side
> Are you telling me that KCM Narudo can take that attack if it exploded on him?
> ...



That TBB was not moving at KCM Naruto directly. He was pushing it by himself. And hey, KCM Naruto is very durable.

CST did not show any destructive power feats good enough to say it can damage Shinsuusenju. 



> Where the hell did you get the idea of Hashirama stopping his chakra from? Why would he even think of doing that? Is it really THAT hard to accept his cute little dragon got cut in half?
> 
> Hashirama used that dragon at that moment. Kurama destroyed its face and cut it in half. It really that simple. It's not rocket science!
> 
> Or are you telling me Kurama showed have destroyed it before it even get used?



Well, because it is pointless to spend chakra on already destroyed Wood Dragon, dont you think?

And how can you explain that Naruto's Kurama Avatar and Hachibi were immobilised by Wood Dragon? 



> ST does not go "horizontally" necessarily. The user can manipulate it how he wants.



And that is pointless, because CST wont hurt Shinsuusenju.



> - Ok? How does that prove Kurama can take it? Look how much damage Kurama got from Narudo's
> FRS
> Juubidara's left side
> Juubidara's left side
> ...



Naruto has never used RS of that magnitude against Pain, or Nagato directly. But i agree that ST can push it away. Only push it away, that's all.

The problem is - CST has never, *ever* destroyed a chakra construct durable enough to stop full Kurama's TBB from moving. Destruction of rock masses and ground *without chakra*? That's not a good enough feat.

I have a quastion for you - do you think the TBB Wood Golem stopped would have gone through buildings of Konoha as easily as that other TBB?



> you think the shockwave is as deadly/strong as the blade itself?
> I guess you agree the Kages's bodies are more durable than Hashirama's wood since they were not
> cut in halves after the shockwaves.
> 
> ...



Can you prove that Edo Madara used PS in order to kill 5 Kage? Especially after saying this?



Hashirama's mokuton stopped mountain-busting shockwave. But yeah - the blade itself is more deadly than a shockwave.



> Indeed. SS has no feats of affecting a chakra gravity that is strong enough to erase an entire village from existing.
> 
> ----
> but yeah, we will agree to disagree. Thanks for the debate, surprisingly it was not as bad as I thought it would be!



Erase an entire village which consists of non-chakra material, which even Might Gai can crush with his taijutsu, lol.

Hashirama stopped PS blade's shockwave with his mokuton, Wood Golem stopped TBB with it's hand. 

That gravity wave wont deal any damage to Shinsuusenju at all.

But CST's AoE effect is larger, wider than SS, that's true.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 17, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> ST is useless against Shinsuusenju anyway.



Doubt it.

A powerful enough Shinra Tensei would probably be able to do serious damage to Shinsuusenju, possibly even beat it. Karin's rookie Adamantine Attacking Chains was more than capable of doing so. 

Bear in mind, the OP has the _weakest_ CST that can be used. Obviously there are more capable ST users than a God Realm whose a long distance away from a chakra deprived Nagato.
Examples included a variant with a Nagato whose not chakra deprived, Nagato himself and Madara, with one eye and both eyes... even three eyes.

Shinsuusenju can tank a lot. But we're not talking about it vs fodder jutsu, we're talking about strong jutsu vs strong jutsu.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 18, 2015)

> Karin's rookie Adamantine Attacking Chains was more than capable of doing so.



Except Spiral Zetsu's SS is a lot weaker.



> Bear in mind, the OP has the weakest CST that can be used. Obviously there are more capable ST users than a God Realm whose a long distance away from a chakra deprived Nagato.
> Examples included a variant with a Nagato whose not chakra deprived, Nagato himself and Madara, with one eye and both eyes... even three eyes.
> 
> Shinsuusenju can tank a lot. But we're not talking about it vs fodder jutsu, we're talking about strong jutsu vs strong jutsu.



Weaker mokuton constructs could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama and stop PS blade's shockwave.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 18, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Except Spiral Zetsu's SS is a lot weaker.
> 
> 
> 
> Weaker mokuton constructs could catch full Kurama's Bijuu Dama and stop PS blade's shockwave.



Spiral Zetsu used the Ninjutsu version, Hashirama's is the Senjutsu version. If Spiral Zetsu had a perfect SM, he'd be using the same kind of Shinsuusenju. Though if Karin used a Senjutus version of her Adamantine Attacking Chains, the result would still be the same. Mind you that was a rookie version. 

Bijuu Dama and Shinra Tensei are two totally different jutsu which work in two totally different ways.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 19, 2015)

> If Spiral Zetsu had a perfect SM, he'd be using the same kind of Shinsuusenju.



Pure assumption.

I wont comment the rest of your assumptions. I dont think there is any sense of doing that.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 19, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Pure assumption.
> 
> I wont comment the rest of your assumptions. I dont think there is any sense of doing that.



You're the one making assumptions. Spiral Zetsu uses the same jutsu, and you claim Hashirama's is a different jutsu. The latter just used it while in a perfect SM.

Re-read the SM training arc to see why SM makes such a difference.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 19, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You're the one making assumptions. Spiral Zetsu uses the same jutsu, and you claim Hashirama's is a different jutsu. The latter just used it while in a perfect SM.
> 
> Re-read the SM training arc to see why SM makes such a difference.



Prove that if Spiral Zetsu had a perfect Sage Mode, he would have been able to use the same Shinsuusenju as SM Hashirama. Prove it would have been as big and as powerful.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 19, 2015)

StarWanderer said:


> Prove that if Spiral Zetsu had a perfect Sage Mode, he would have been able to use the same Shinsuusenju as SM Hashirama. Prove it would have been as big and as powerful.



That was the Ninjutsu version Spiral Zetsu used. 

Let me get this straight, you're telling me base Hashirama can make a Shinsuusenju that big *without* SM?


----------



## KeyofMiracles (Aug 19, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That was the Ninjutsu version Spiral Zetsu used.
> 
> Let me get this straight, you're telling me base Hashirama can make a Shinsuusenju that big *without* SM?



Lol you are clearly wrong here.

1. There is a vast difference in their reserves and the potency of their chakra even when Sage Mode is left out of the equation. Why would SZ produce equal Mokuton to Hashirama? Makes no sense.

2. Hashirama's Mokujin in Base is the same size or larger than Zetsu's Shinsuusenju. Base Hashirama would make something much larger than his SS even if he's only in Base.

It being the Ninjutsu version doesn't mean that Hashirama's SS w/o Senjutsu will be the same exact size when Hashirama>>>SZ in every conceivable way.


----------



## StarWanderer (Aug 20, 2015)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> That was the Ninjutsu version Spiral Zetsu used.
> 
> Let me get this straight, you're telling me base Hashirama can make a Shinsuusenju that big *without* SM?



A ninjutsu vertion of spiral zetsu, who didnt have chakra reserves as big as Hashirama's. 

You still havent proved that with perfect Sage Mode, Zetsu's Shinsuusenju would have been just as big and as powerful as the one SM Hashirama used.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 20, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> If you really think Hashirama's ultimate technique has an area of effect measuring ten metres across, you're fucking stupid.



<snip>

Hashirama's strongest attack's range is officially out. 

<snip>

seem to be huge at all, no matter how much you look at it
(3)

The distance between the Buddha and Kurama is rather short...


----------



## Sans (Aug 20, 2015)

Part One Sasuke's Goukakyu trumps the Budda 110% Hussain confirmed. 

Totally incomprehensible.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 20, 2015)

Not sure what you're talking about to be honest. 

anyway, if you have proofs or other things to support your claim enlighten us with it.
If not, stop wasting our times...


----------



## Sans (Aug 20, 2015)

I'll cite your own page you linked a few posts back.

Are you legitimately blind that that looks like a distance of 10 meters?


----------



## Trojan (Aug 20, 2015)

Enlighten us then Mr. Komnenos

how long does this distance look like in your highness's glorious eyes? 
(3)


----------



## Alex Payne (Aug 20, 2015)

There is enough space to fit another 100% Kyubi between two parties. Is 100% Kyubi's length with tails around 10 meters? I guess Minato can't warp something as small as that without getting tired...


----------



## Sans (Aug 20, 2015)

Does it really matter?

You can see valley ridges and mountains around them. You can see trees reduced to the size of small shrubbery, relative to Perfect Susano'o and the Budda. 

The distance is far, far, far, far, far, far greater than any conventional battle fought between ninja.

If you can look at that and come to the conclusion they're ten meters apart, as in one is standing inside the room with me and the other is just outside, I don't know what to say. You're quite simply being a moron. What else do you say when someone fails so completely and utterly in the art of basic comprehension when looking at things?


----------



## Trojan (Aug 20, 2015)

Komnenos said:


> Does it really matter?
> 
> You can see valley ridges and mountains around them. You can see trees reduced to the size of small shrubbery, relative to Perfect Susano'o and the Budda.
> 
> ...



I think the stuff you are talking about is simply a matter of camera angles. For example, in this page
(3)
Kishi was not trying to tell us that madara is THAT size compared to the moon. 

Just like how some people were taking those CTs
(3)
as each of them being bigger than the tree based on that angle
even tho they were dropping on the field, and if they were as such, all the SA members would have been killed, but we can see they were not here
(3)
the second panel: (3)

3rd example would be
The Bijuus compared to the Tree
when it was a close up on the Bijuus, they look like they are comparable to the Tree's roots
(3)
(3)
(Even tho the Susanoo looks much smaller when there were a direct comparison the previous chapter) 


and when the focus is not in the Bijuus as much as in the Tree, they look as bugs
(it's in chapter 692, and when Sasuke used his CTs. Internet is shitty currently ) 

and so on
Thus, since we can't really depend on how big they exactly look in the manga since it keeps changing
from chapter to another, the only thing we can rely on is an official number.  Otherwise, everyone will
just throw random shits depends on what they fit them or whatever...


----------



## Sans (Aug 20, 2015)

Okay, you're incapable of looking at pictures properly.

I guess there's no point in discussing this.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Aug 20, 2015)

KeyofMiracles said:


> Lol you are clearly wrong here.
> 
> 1. There is a vast difference in their reserves and the potency of their chakra even when Sage Mode is left out of the equation. Why would SZ produce equal Mokuton to Hashirama? Makes no sense.
> 
> ...



1. I recall Naruto being incapable of performing a mega sized version of Rasengan without Rasengan. Remember when he first got SM?

2. That is your speculation. We've only seen Shinsuusenju when Hashirama used SM. You don't think there's a reason he chose to enter SM prior using the jutsu?



StarWanderer said:


> A ninjutsu vertion of spiral zetsu, who didnt have chakra reserves as big as Hashirama's.
> 
> You still havent proved that with perfect Sage Mode, Zetsu's Shinsuusenju would have been just as big and as powerful as the one SM Hashirama used.



By your logic SM Naruto and base Naruto have different chakra reserves. 

You're the one who needs to prove the chakra capacity makes a difference. My evidence is simple: we saw Hashirama use it with Senjutsu and Zetsu use it with Ninjutsu. Manga facts. 

You're the one talking about chakra capacities affecting it with no evidence whatsoever. Does the databook even support you?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 20, 2015)

Hussain said:


> <snip>
> 
> Hashirama's strongest attack's range is officially out.
> 
> ...



There are two mountain ridges between them.  There's a forest covering 1/4 of the gap between them.  You can't low ball even that tree patch to be less than 10 meters long.

You can fit another kyuubi between them.  

This is a ten yard line in football. It's one yard short of ten meters.



This is ten meters.  It is the standard length of a bus.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

while I was reviewing some chapters back... 


I honestly think it's very obvious that the Buddha is nothing compared to CST, nor is Hashirama's firepower
come anywhere near Nagato's either. It's all a matter of actually seeing Jutsu Vs Jutsu directly compared to
the CST which was not used against a jutsu or something else directly...



> There are two mountain ridges between them. There's a forest covering 1/4 of the gap between them. You can't low ball even that tree patch to be less than 10 meters long.



how long are those "mountains" how do you they are not hills or plateaus?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 21, 2015)

> how long are those "mountains" how do you they are not hills or plateaus?



Those would still be over 10 meters long.


----------



## The Undying (Aug 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> how long are those "mountains" how do you they are not hills or plateaus?



It doesn't matter. Look at the goddamn TREES, Hussain.

Do you honestly believe that's ten meters?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 21, 2015)




----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 21, 2015)

The Undying said:


> It doesn't matter. Look at the goddamn TREES, Hussain.
> 
> Do you honestly believe that's ten meters?



But how do you know those are trees and not bushes?


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

you're measuring the higher of the tree here, but the distance in this page
damage
should be determent by the width.

Regardless, the way I see it is in this way more or less
Do you see those arms way in the back?
damage
Or here
damage

wouldn't they need to go around the other arms from way back there to the target? 
That distance they have to cover should limit their range.  I have some examples in the back of my head, but I am not sure how to present them to you honestly. 

so I hope you get what I am talking about..


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

Ok, it's fugly, but that's what I have for now to clear what I mean up, so deal with it

Link removed

So, imagine the black thing is the Buddha, and the pinks are its arms. Now, the arms in the front do not have
anything in front of them to go around, so their range is higher than the rest. However, the arms in the back, have
to go around the arms in in front of them, otherwise, they will just hit them. Thus, the further the arms are, the less
their range is. Which effect the Buddha's range overall and reduce it...

That's what I was thinking. If it's still not clear, I don't know how to explain more honestly. lol


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

^
^
I don't think you worth the time to reply  honestly. 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I....i think he is serious.
> 
> Legit thought he was trolling at first. Ah well.



why would I be trolling about a village being bigger than Hashirama's Buddha/VOTE? 

If anything this thread just made me remember why it has always been impossible to take Hashirama's fans seriously to be honest. 
and why he was the characters that overrated as fuck until BMS Kakashi took the thrown from him being the most overwanked character...


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> ^why would I be trolling about a village being bigger than Hashirama's Buddha/VOTE?



I was talking about the ten meters thing.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

*Spoiler*: __ 






Link removed
This page shows the First of Death which we know that is 20KM long, and yet it pals compared to
the village. I do which people do know how far 20KM is. 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> I was talking about the ten meters thing.



oh well... 




> EmotionalRockfish’s 4th Databook Translations
> 
> Jutsu Section - Chart Instructions
> 
> ...






I simply don't over wank Hashirama, and put him where Kishi putted him. Nothing more, nothing less.


----------



## Bonly (Aug 21, 2015)

"Mid range jutsu *are the most effective* within 5m to 10m."

That doesn't mean the range of the jutsu is only 5 to 10 meters. That just means that it's best used when used within said range.


----------



## blackguyinpinksuit (Aug 21, 2015)

10m wide mountains. Hell 10m wide hills. All according to the holy databook.

Garbage as literal as can be.


----------



## Trojan (Aug 21, 2015)

I don't think how that change to be honest, Bonly. It's effectiveness is around that range. CST's effect exceeds
several KM, that's MUCH higher no matter how you look at it. Needless to say, this topic's main point was about
the size of the 2 different jutsus until it got shifted because of the so smart people that can't stay on topic! 



blackguyinpinksuit said:


> 10m wide mountains. Hell 10m wide hills. All according to the holy databook.
> 
> Garbage as literal as can be.



you are talking about the size of the jutsu, which the Databook does not. 

anyhow. How do your naked eyes determine the size and distance?


----------



## Bonly (Aug 21, 2015)

Hussain said:


> I don't think how that change to be honest, Bonly. It's effectiveness is around that range. CST's effect exceeds
> several KM, that's MUCH higher no matter how you look at it. Needless to say, this topic's main point was about
> the size of the 2 different jutsus until it got shifted because of the so smart people that can't stay on topic!



Earlier you said "The Buddha *according to the Databook has an AoE from short to mid range*. On other words 0 to 10 m." and from the little bit I glanced out on the last page or so it's pretty much people telling you the AoE isn't 10 meters among other things so if anything with you realizing(or it just being made clear if people thought it wasn't clear) that the jutsu is best used at said range rather then you saying that it only has said range, it'll end the talks about it's range and more about how CST effects Shinsuusenju but meh


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 22, 2015)

> I do which people do how far 20KM is.



I do!  I do!  I do!


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 22, 2015)

Chō Shinra Tensei pales in comparison to a Bijūdama, let alone the Shinsūsenju who took like eleven of those. Chō Shinra Tensei wouldn't do much, if anything at all, to the wooden construct.


----------



## LostSelf (Aug 22, 2015)

The Budhah didn't "tank" those Bijudama. It's arms were devastated.


----------



## Grimmjowsensei (Aug 23, 2015)

I'd say Buddha is probably around the size of that inner crater. The enviromental damage created by CST is probably bigger than the envriomental damage created by Buddha's punches, if thats what you are asking.

If you are asking CST vs Buddha, then Buddha would tank it like a champ, or probably just withstand it and reflect it on Pain.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Aug 23, 2015)

LostSelf said:


> The Budhah didn't "tank" those Bijudama. It's arms were devastated.



The main body emerged from the 11 Bijūdama detonation unscathed.


----------



## Sans (Aug 23, 2015)

Very impressive for a jutsu that would struggle to take out a school bus.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 23, 2015)

It is a magic school bus.


----------



## Sans (Aug 24, 2015)

Are magic school buses 20 meters in length or something?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Aug 24, 2015)

They're as long is takes to make the magic happen.


----------

