# Benn Beckman vs. Rayleigh



## trance (Mar 10, 2015)

Location: MarineFord

Intel: Full

Mindset: Bloodlusted

Distance: 30m

Rules: Rayleigh is old.

I think Rayleigh edges it but interested to hear other opinions.


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## Amol (Mar 10, 2015)

Old Ray = Kizaru .
Kizaru ~ Ben Beckman
Ray-san wins with extreme diff .


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## killfox (Mar 10, 2015)

Old Ray didnt equal Kizaru if anything Kizaru = > Ray because of stamina issues. If that fight continued too long Ray would loose due to old age. 

Also Ray is a primary sword fighter and Kizaru isnt yet he was able to math him without using any high end attacks like he did in the war, so thats saying something. (Although I guess it could be argued Ray didnt use any high end attacks either) but it was clear that Ray didnt have Admiral level stamina and would have lost. 

Anyway I can really speak on it because we dont know what Ben is capable of but if hes Marco level he should win due to Rays stamina issues.


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## Amol (Mar 10, 2015)

Rayleigh having low stamina is a fan made myth.
He is the man who swam entire calm belt battling with Sea Kings on his way.
So forgive me if I don't take a single panel of Ray panting as Universal Truth about Rayleigh lacking stamina.
Luffy and Zoro pants in every single fight of them.
People like Ace and Jinbei can fight for 5 days non stop and fucking Rayleigh has low stamina ?
Sure why not .


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## Dr. White (Mar 10, 2015)

IMO Ben would edge it out extreme diff. I see him being one of the strongest Vice Captains on Yonko ships. Ben was confident enough to wave his gun pretyt close to a logia like Kizaru who has massive AOE and DC, and he already showed he was competent in CqC. I think age would be the factor that kills Rayleigh, but it's not like I can't see him winning at all, I'd just favor Beckman to win extreme diff.


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## killfox (Mar 10, 2015)

Amol said:


> Rayleigh having low stamina is a fan made myth.
> He is the man who swam entire calm belt battling with Sea Kings on his way.
> So forgive me if I don't take a single panel of Ray panting as Universal Truth about Rayleigh lacking stamina.
> Luffy and Zoro pants in every single fight of them.
> ...


Swimming the calm belt is a lot easier than fighting against an admiral, especially when you have CoC to make the sea kings faint/fear you. 

And you may be right except Ray himself was the one who commented on his stamina issues, and that was only after a few mins of fighting.

Its not that Ray has horrible stamina its just that Kizaru was pressuring him and Ray wouldnt be able to keep up that level of intensity for too long.

Example. Boxers fight for hella rounds but if a boxer started going full power from round 1 he would start getting tired faster.


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## Kai (Mar 10, 2015)

Ben Beckman ~ Kizaru > Rayleigh.

Rayleigh can "sprint" with those top tiers, but he can't keep it up for long at his old age. In a full length battle he decisively loses.

Also shows Admirals are closer in strength to Yonkou first mates than they are to the Yonkou.


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## IchijiNijiSanji (Mar 10, 2015)

Seriously.... throwing a few slashes against an admiral is more stamina consuming than swimming the calm belt?

Rayleigh managed to stop and hold Kizaru where he was for a certain amount of period till the SHs got dispersed by kuma. Beckmann tried to do the same but Kizaru was on Law and Luffy's ass the next chapter.

Based on their efficacy so far, I'd say Ray wins.

Though, it also needs to be considered that Beckmann wasn't trying to actively intercept Kizaru because the marines and redhair pirates were at a stand still with each other. Hmm 

I'd say in that case Beckmann can pull it off considering he's in better shape and has more practice than Ray does. 

Ahh who am i kidding it goes either way


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## Yuki (Mar 10, 2015)

Featless character are banned. .


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## Bernkastel (Mar 10, 2015)

For now Rayleigh wins very high diff.
I doubt this will ever change since i don't think Beckman is equal to Kizaru.


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## Raid3r2010 (Mar 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Ben Beckman ~ Kizaru > Rayleigh.
> 
> Rayleigh can "sprint" with those top tiers, but he can't keep it up for long at his old age. In a full length battle he decisively loses.
> 
> Also shows Admirals are closer in strength to Yonkou first mates than they are to the Yonkou.



Pretty much my view on this matter.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Mar 10, 2015)

Could go either-way


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## Pirao (Mar 10, 2015)

Beckman beats old Rayleigh extreme diff IMO. Against Prime Rayleigh it would be a different story.


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## Luke (Mar 10, 2015)

Beckman, who I believe to be the strongest current Yonkou FM, should edge out Rayleigh with extreme difficulty.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 10, 2015)

Could go either way, but for now, I give this to Rayleigh.


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## Freechoice (Mar 10, 2015)

Ben strongest FM

beats old Ray


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## Coruscation (Mar 10, 2015)

Ben Beckman vs old Rayleigh becomes the most badass fight that's ever been seen in the OP verse since Roger vs WB/Garp. In the end they both collapse.

Prime Rayleigh would take him out with borderline high diff. I imagine Shanks/Beckman is a rather similar relationship as Roger/Rayleigh both in terms of power and personality. I rate prime Rayleigh as very slightly above Shanks, who would most likely beat his first mate with high diff.


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 10, 2015)

Kizaru would very high diff Rayleigh and Beckman individually. (NOT extreme)

Both are weaker than Admirals and seem to be on same level.

Leaning towards Beckmann extreme diff because he's younger and in his prime. Ray will struggle with stamina issues.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 10, 2015)

Leaning towards Rayleigh cuz he got great hype and his feat as the first to injure an admiral. Extreme diff ofc.


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## Gohara (Mar 10, 2015)

Beckman wins with mid to high difficulty, IMO.  I believe what the Red Hair Pirates lack in quantity they make up in quality.  So I think the Red Hair Pirate Commanders are the most powerful Yonkou Commanders, which means I think Beckman is the most powerful First Mate amongst the Yonkou crews.  Beckman also got Kizaru to surrender without putting up a fight, whereas Kizaru fought on par with Old Rayleigh.


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## Raiden34 (Mar 10, 2015)

None of them are equal to Kizaru, Ray is old and Benn isn't that good, therefor it could go either way.


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## Empathy (Mar 10, 2015)

For now Rayleigh deserves the benefit of the doubt. He looked better against Kizaru in my opinion. Shanks is the strongest of his crew, and him against an admiral is already extremely close, even if Shanks can edge it. I don't see conclusive evidence of Benn being above the level of Rayleigh or Marco (strongest Yonkou's first mate) when they all were pitted against Kizaru, and I don't think we know enough about him where he deserves that benefit of the doubt at this time.


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## Akitō (Mar 10, 2015)

Rayleigh's portrayal against Kizaru was better than Beckman's by a pretty big margin IMO. Kizaru tries to attack the Strawhats under Beckman's watch and succeeds in doing so. He tries to do the same under Rayleigh's watch and finds himself getting cut in the face. There obviously isn't much to go off of here, but as of now Rayleigh gets the nod.


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## Freechoice (Mar 10, 2015)

He didn't attack the SH's while Beckman was aiming at him...

It was once he left that he attacked...

you fools


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## Typhon (Mar 10, 2015)

Giving it to Rayleigh high diff. Too much hype going for him in relation to Ben.

Rayleigh could push Shanks hard imo.


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## King plasma (Mar 10, 2015)

loL said:


> He didn't attack the SH's while Beckman was aiming at him...
> 
> It was once he left that he attacked...
> 
> you fools


Maybe you don't remember but here:


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 10, 2015)

FM of Pirate King

vs

FM of weakest Yonkou

Stop asking obvious questions


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## Gohara (Mar 10, 2015)

King plasma said:


> Maybe you don't remember but here



Actually those panels only further what he's saying here.  We get a view of the ships, and Beckman is no longer on them.  Additionally, just a few pages after that, Beckman is shown with the other Red Hair Pirates.  I would also throw out that Kizaru expresses frustration when he is prevented from capturing the Straw Hat Pirates by Kuma and Rayleigh, and that's before he knows that Luffy is Dragon's son and Ace's brother.  I don't see why he would give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping if he didn't mind continuing his pursuit with Beckman next to him.


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## King plasma (Mar 10, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Actually those panels only further what he's saying here.  We get a view of the ships, and Beckman is no longer on them.  Additionally, just a few pages after that, Beckman is shown with the other Red Hair Pirates.  I would also throw out that Kizaru expresses frustration when he is prevented from capturing the Straw Hat Pirates by Kuma and Rayleigh, and that's before he knows that Luffy is Dragon's son and Ace's brother.  I don't see why he would give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping if he didn't mind continuing his pursuit with Beckman next to him.



Here's what happened. Beckman initially caught Kizaru by surprise, Kizaru pretended he was backing off. Since Kizaru was still airborne Beckman could have not have switched locations. Basically Kizaru ignored him and used one of his strongest attacks in hopes of hitting Law's Sub. Beckman failed stop him, it's as simple that.


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## MYJC (Mar 10, 2015)

Hard to say from what we've seen. 

Rayleigh probably has a skill/experience advantage (though not huge) and probably was better in his prime. However, Beckman is younger and more active, and thus wouldn't be as rusty as Rayleigh might be. He might also have a stamina advantage due to age. 


We haven't seen enough from either of them, especially Beckman, to make a meaningful call. At this point I'd honestly have to say it could go either way.


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## Kaiser (Mar 10, 2015)

Rayleigh very high difficulty. He has more hype even old


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## Gohara (Mar 10, 2015)

King plasma said:


> Kizaru pretended he was backing off.



Again, Kizaru expresses frustration when Luffy- who at the time he deems as being significantly less of a threat than he does by that point- gets help escaping by Kuma and Rayleigh.  So I don't see why Kizaru would pretend and give Luffy a much better chance of escaping.



King plasma said:


> Since Kizaru was still airborne Beckman could have not have switched locations.



What do you mean exactly?  I mean, what makes you say Kizaru being in the air to use that technique means Beckman couldn't have switched locations prior to that?


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## zoro_santoryu (Mar 10, 2015)

Beckman wins high difficulty. I say Beckman wins 7/10 times


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## Kai (Mar 10, 2015)

King plasma said:
			
		

> Here's what happened. Beckman initially caught Kizaru by surprise, Kizaru pretended he was backing off


Kizaru pretended he was backing off because Beckman was aiming at him. After Beckman's focus was off Kizaru, Kizaru initiated his attack 

Not that difficult to understand.


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## Akitō (Mar 10, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Actually those panels only further what he's saying here.  We get a view of the ships, and Beckman is no longer on them.



Which panels are you referring to? Because if I remember correctly, the pictures of the ships in those chapters are from far away, so it's likely that Oda wouldn't bother drawing the crew on them because of how small and insignificant they'd be to the picture. 



> Additionally, just a few pages after that, Beckman is shown with the other Red Hair Pirates.



This doesn't prove anything. He could've easily been on the ship while Kizaru was attacking the Strawhats and then moved off after he was done. That's what Lucky Roo did. 



> I don't see why he would give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping if he didn't mind continuing his pursuit with Beckman next to him.



Because he understands that some things are just lost causes. If they survived the Ice Age and the Yasakani no Magatama, that means they were deep enough and far enough in the ocean that nothing would really work at that point. 

Also, I'm not arguing that he didn't care about Beckman's presence. I'm arguing that Beckman wasn't able to stop Kizaru whereas Rayleigh was, and that IMO points towards Rayleigh's superiority. I think he cared enough about his presence that he wouldn't attempt to chase down a submarine that's deep and far in the ocean with Beckman standing over him. But the very fact that he got an attack off implies to me that Rayleigh is stronger.

Beyond that, I don't really get your argument. Are you trying to say that Beckman threatened Kizaru, and then almost immediately afterwards left him alone, thus allowing him to attack the Strawhats? Why in the world would that be logical for him to do?


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## King plasma (Mar 10, 2015)

Kai said:


> Kizaru pretended he was backing off because Beckman was aiming at him. After Beckman's focus was off Kizaru, Kizaru initiated his attack
> 
> Not that difficult to understand.



Well that's a good explanation. 

 This should clear things up, Gohara.



Gohara said:


> Again, Kizaru expresses frustration when Luffy- who at the time he deems as being significantly less of a threat than he does by that point- gets help escaping by Kuma and Rayleigh.  So I don't see why Kizaru would pretend and give Luffy a much better chance of escaping.



You didn't understand what i said. I meant Kizaru was trolling Beckman with his sarcasm, he didn't seem to find him a big threat, you can see moments later Kizaru attacking anyway. Which means Beckman failed to stop Kizaru. Contrast that to Rayleigh whom actually managed to stop Kizaru in his tracks. I never said anything about Kizaru giving Luffy a better chance of escaping.  



> What do you mean exactly?  I mean, what makes you say Kizaru being in the air to use that technique means Beckman couldn't have switched locations prior to that?



To me it looked like Beckman was still sitting on the mast there's no reason to believe he was was somewhere else because he wasn't shown to be. Otherwise there would be no point to this scene if he was disengaged from Kizaru.


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## Gohara (Mar 10, 2015)

@ Akito.

-The ones that show Kizaru go back on one of the ships after aiming techniques at Law's ship.

-We most recently see Lucky Roo on the Red Hair Pirates' ship around a handful of pages prior to when we see the Red Hair Pirates challenging the Blackbeard Pirates and Marines.  Additionally, Lucky Roo is closer to most of the Red Hair Pirates than Beckman is, as we see him with Shanks prior to that scene.

-Yes, but they would only be that deep in the ocean in the first place because he waited a while to continue pursuing them.  If Kizaru was just joking around with Beckman he would have no need to wait a while to continue pursuing them, thus continuing to pursue them before they are even under water, let alone that deep in the ocean.

I have no issue with you believing that Old Rayleigh is around as powerful as or more powerful than Beckman.  I respect your views, and you could be right.  I just don't think that comparison of scenes favors Old Rayleigh here for the reasons above.

@ King.

-Kai's scenario doesn't really agree with what you're saying here, because what he's saying would imply that Kizaru doesn't continue pursuing Luffy not because he doesn't find Beckman to be a threat, but rather because Beckman isn't focusing on him.  This means he still surrenders when Beckman is focusing on him, but continues to pursue Luffy when Beckman isn't focusing on him.

-I actually am posting that in response to you saying that Kizaru is joking around.  As I said, Kizaru has made it clear that he wants to capture Luffy even prior to knowing Luffy's full background, which almost certainly raises Luffy's threat level in his eyes.  I know you didn't say that, but Kizaru spending that time joking around does give Luffy a much better chance of escaping.  There would have to be a very good reason for Kizaru to do that, and Kizaru joking around just because he feels like it doesn't seem like a good trade off for him.  As for Kizaru attacking later on, I'll continue to address that in my next point.  

-There's a sound effect that means someone just landed on something in that panel, and we know that Kizaru was in the air.  Also, the character we see on the mast is on the different side of the sail in which we see Beckman on.

What I say to Akito goes for you as well.  I have no issue with who you believe is more powerful between Beckman and Old Rayleigh, as again I respect your views and you could turn out to be right.  I just don't agree with your perception of the Beckman vs. Kizaru scene for the reasons above.


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Gohara said:


> @ Akito.
> 
> -The ones that show Kizaru go back on one of the ships after aiming techniques at Law's ship.



Can you give me a chapter number and page number? Not saying you're wrong, but I still can't find it. 



> We most recently see Lucky Roo on the Red Hair Pirates' ship around a handful of pages prior to when we see the Red Hair Pirates challenging the Blackbeard Pirates and Marines.  Additionally, Lucky Roo is closer to most of the Red Hair Pirates than Beckman is, as we see him with Shanks prior to that scene.



Beckman only would've had to have been on the ship for two pages longer than Lucky Roo was assuming that Lucky Roo immediately left the ship to join Shanks after the last time we saw him on the ship. And that's the best case scenario for your argument. Can you prove to me or at least give me something that suggests that Beckman couldn't have gotten from where he was on the ship to Shanks in those few pages? Because that's what your point is contingent upon. 



> Yes, but they would only be that deep in the ocean in the first place because he waited a while to continue pursuing them.  If Kizaru was just joking around with Beckman he would have no need to wait a while to continue pursuing them, thus continuing to pursue them before they are even under water, let alone that deep in the ocean.



Not sure why you're bringing Kizaru's mentality towards Beckman and Rayleigh into this. Again, I'm not arguing that Kizaru didn't care at all about Beckman or that he was joking around with him. In fact, the evidence suggests that he cared as much about Beckman's presence as he did about Rayleigh's presence considering he tried to attack the Strawhats on both their watches. The difference is that Kizaru got an attack off around Beckman but failed to do so around Rayleigh.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 11, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Can you give me a chapter number and page number? Not saying you're wrong, but I still can't find it.



*Spoiler*: __ 







Here are the panels from Marineford (Chapter 579 and 580 respectively) that have Kizaru and Ben in them, at least far as I know.


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## Rob (Mar 11, 2015)

Based on mere assumption, I'd give Current Beckman the edge over Old-Ray.


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## Dunno (Mar 11, 2015)

Rayleigh takes it high diff or so.


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Issho said:


> *Spoiler*: __
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Ah, I'm dumb. I didn't recognize Kizaru jumping down onto the ship on my iPad as I was reading because it was so small. The bloated up version makes it much more noticeable to me. 

Regardless, this point is moot because Kizaru could've just landed onto a different ship. If indeed Beckman was on the ship he and Kizaru originally were on at the time of Kizaru's Yasakani no Magatama, then that would be the logical course of action for Kizaru to take. And you wouldn't see Beckman in that panel if that were the case.


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## Coruscation (Mar 11, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Not sure why you're bringing Kizaru's mentality towards Beckman and Rayleigh into this. Again, I'm not arguing that Kizaru didn't care at all about Beckman or that he was joking around with him. In fact, the evidence suggests that he cared as much about Beckman's presence as he did about Rayleigh's presence considering he tried to attack the Strawhats on both their watches. *The difference is that Kizaru got an attack off around Beckman but failed to do so around Rayleigh.*



If that's the case then you have to take into account several important differences between the scenes.

1. Rayleigh was right next to Kizaru, with a sword Kizaru didn't know about. Ben Beckman, on the other hand, was a distance away (presuming he hadn't moved) and was using a gun whose presence he was making very much known.

2. Ben Beckman was there with Shanks to end the war. If he had shot Kizaru, what do you imagine would have happened? Would the Marines have let it slide and ended the war anyway? Or would seeing one of their top officers be attacked by the Yonkou rekindle the fire Shanks had managed to quell with his arrival? By firing that gun Beckman would have instantly jeopardized his captain's purpose for going there and risked thousands of lives once again being meaninglessly wasted. Rayleigh, naturally, had no such inhibitions.


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> 1. Rayleigh was right next to Kizaru, with a sword Kizaru didn't know about. Ben Beckman, on the other hand, was a distance away (presuming he hadn't moved) and was using a gun whose presence he was making very much known.



How does Kizaru knowing that Beckman has a gun pointed towards him give him an advantage in attacking the Strawhats that he didn't have in the situation with Rayleigh? I'm unsure of what your argument is here. The only thing that should impact is Kizaru's decision making process on whether or not he should attack the Strawhats. 

And regardless of whether or not Kizaru knew of Rayleigh's sword, he knew that Rayleigh was there and that he would try to stop him if he attacked. The sword wasn't really necessary to stop the light-transportation technique that Kizaru was going to use IMO - a kick or fist would've sufficed. 

And at the start of Kizaru's attack, Beckman was pretty close to him. They were standing almost right next to each other until Kizaru jumped to use his attack. He has a gun as opposed to Rayleigh's sword, so he shouldn't need to be as close as Rayleigh was to stop him. 



> 2. Ben Beckman was there with Shanks to end the war. If he had shot Kizaru, what do you imagine would have happened? Would the Marines have let it slide and ended the war anyway? Or would seeing one of their top officers be attacked by the Yonkou rekindle the fire Shanks had managed to quell with his arrival? By firing that gun Beckman would have instantly jeopardized his captain's purpose for going there and risked thousands of lives once again being meaninglessly wasted. Rayleigh, naturally, had no such inhibitions.



I sincerely doubt that Sengoku would be so unreasonable as to be mad at Shanks' crew for trying to stop an Admiral from killing their allies when the entire point of them being there was to stop the killing. From his perspective, what does he expect to happen? That they would just sit back idly while the Marines kill people even though he knows full well that they wanted to stop the fighting? Why would he risk losing massive casualties just because one of his soldiers decided to disobey Shanks/Beckman's orders and came out on the losing end? It's not as if Kizaru would've died from one gunshot.


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## Coruscation (Mar 11, 2015)

Kizaru didn't know Rayleigh would attempt to intercept him the way he did. He knew exactly what Ben Beckman might try to do and had adequate time to plan what to do. _A point blank sword slash from a hidden weapon is more threatening than a gunshot from a distance which the opponent knows may be coming_. This shouldn't be particularly difficult to understand. Are you really suggesting that if Ben Beckman stood at point blank range and Kizaru was trying to light-travel away, Beckman wouldn't be able to stop him? Even a horribly injured Whitebeard who was not right next to Kizaru managed to do that.

So why in your opinion didn't Beckman even _try_ to attack? If he truly wanted to attack but didn't, the only possible reason would be that he is so slow he was unable to even fire his gun before Kizaru had jumped into the air and launched a giant laser rain. That being the case would completely shred and invalidate his badass portrayal when he entered the scene. If you believe that you're insane. So there is no reasonable argument that can be made here other than that Beckman was bluffing all along, though his threat was credible enough for Kizaru to stop until he realized it was, indeed, a bluff. The scenario makes absolutely no sense if Kizaru could simply have no-sold Beckman's entire threat all along. Beckman's commentary also fails to suggest that he was _unable_ to respond to Kizaru's last-ditch attempt but more so that he simply chose to take no action. The reaction he showed is not one of a man who completely and utterly catastrophically failed at a task he wanted to accomplish.

And seriously, you don't understand how a Yonkou crewmember attacking an Admiral who didn't attack them first could easily rekindle the war? Look at the scene and you'll notice that one from the Marines ever attacked anyone from the RHP and vice versa. Shanks only defended against Akainu. There was an implicit understanding that it would be bad for both parties to fight. Shanks, however, didn't issue his warning about what might happen if anyone fights anyone until _after_ Kizaru made his move. His words would ring hollow and fall on deaf ears if by this point Ben Beckman had already initiated attack on the Marines. In simple terms, Shanks was there to end the war. Whether Luffy lives or dies in Kizaru's last-ditch move has nothing to do with whether the war ends. Whether the war ends to do with whether hostilities break out between the remaining warring parties. If Beckman attacked Kizaru he would be initiating hostilities.


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## Beckman (Mar 11, 2015)

Akitō said:


> I sincerely doubt that Sengoku would be so unreasonable as to be mad at Shanks' crew for trying to stop an Admiral from killing their allies when the entire point of them being there was to stop the killing. From his perspective, what does he expect to happen? That they would just sit back idly while the Marines kill people even though he knows full well that they wanted to stop the fighting? Why would he risk losing massive casualties just because one of his soldiers decided to disobey Shanks/Beckman's orders and came out on the losing end? It's not as if Kizaru would've died from one gunshot.



It's not like stopping the war was the obvious choice for Sengoku, he clearly thought it trough before making his decision. Who knows what could have put him over the edge? As you say, he might have let a fight slip if it was Kizaru who started it, but that wasn't really the case here. Kizaru didn't directly attack the sub, he started with jumping high up in the air, out of Beckmans reach. So if Beckman wanted to stop him he would have had to attack him before Kiz jumped and by such have been the aggressor.Sengoku might not have let that slip which means Beckman could have risked the whole operation.

There's also an easier way to look at it, which is that Beckman didn't do anything for plot reasons, so that the tension would stay high. It would hardly be the most controversial PIS in the series.


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Kizaru didn't know Rayleigh would attempt to intercept him the way he did. He knew exactly what Ben Beckman might try to do and had adequate time to plan what to do. _A point blank sword slash from a hidden weapon is more threatening than a gunshot from a distance which the opponent knows may be coming_. This shouldn't be particularly difficult to understand. Are you really suggesting that if Ben Beckman stood at point blank range and Kizaru was trying to light-travel away, Beckman wouldn't be able to stop him? Even a horribly injured Whitebeard who was not right next to Kizaru managed to do that.



"Plan what to do"? He literally jumped up and attacked the Strawhats. Beckman was only a few feet away from him. What exactly would he have done differently had he not known Beckman had a gun? Yasakani no Magatama was the most obvious option from what we know of his skill set, so that knowledge is irrelevant. 

And are you really suggesting that a few feet can make that big of a difference? These guys can move that distance in literally nanoseconds. We've seen much faster interceptions. And Rayleigh didn't even need a sword to intercept Kizaru. He got there in plenty of time, so all he needed was his fist or legs, which Kizaru obviously knew he had. 



> So there is no reasonable argument that can be made here other than that Beckman was bluffing all along, though his threat was credible enough for Kizaru to stop until he realized it was, indeed, a bluff.



Okay, so he was bluffing when he threatened Kizaru, yet he and his crew were willing to fight anyone who wanted to continue fighting. This makes sense to you? It is a fact that Shanks' crew was ready for battle if someone wanted to fight. 

Also, if you don't think that Beckman was trying to attack, what the hell was the point of your first initial argument then? Why argue that Rayleigh had it easier than Beckman if you think Beckman could've stopped Kizaru anyway? It doesn't contribute to the discussion unless you're trying to excuse Beckman's performance. 

Call me insane all you want, but it's even stupider IMO if Beckman wasn't willing to attack Kizaru even though a few pages later it is literally stated that his entire crew, including himself, is willing to attack the Marines. 



> The reaction he showed is not one of a man who completely and utterly catastrophically failed at a task he wanted to accomplish.



Um, he did fail at a task he wanted to accomplish regardless of which viewpoint you hold. He wanted to stop Kizaru in his tracks by threatening him according to your perspective and failed. So I don't really your point here. 



> And seriously, you don't understand how a Yonkou crewmember attacking an Admiral who didn't attack them first could easily rekindle the war?



Kizaru would be the one attacking first, just like Akainu was the one who attacked first when Shanks intercepted him. 

So no, I don't see how Beckman attempting to do the same exact thing that Shanks did would start a war. Beckman issued a warning. Kizaru ignored it. Do the Marines really expect Beckman to just sit there idly as Kizaru attempts to kill an extremely important figure in Shanks' life? It's almost the exact same situation as Shanks saving Coby. The only way I could see it starting a war is if Beckman outright killed Kizaru, which wouldn't happen by him firing off a single gunshot. 

You act as if Beckman would be attacking Kizaru unprovoked, and that simply isn't the case. Anyone who is rational couldn't possibly blame Beckman for attacking Kizaru considering the fact that he gave fare warning.


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## Grimsley (Mar 11, 2015)

how the hell do you expect us to answer this? we've seen barely anything from either of them.

ben wins


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## Coruscation (Mar 11, 2015)

> "Plan what to do"? He literally jumped up and attacked the Strawhats. Beckman was only a few feet away from him. What exactly would he have done differently had he not known Beckman had a gun? Yasakani no Magatama was the most obvious option from what we know of his skill set, so that knowledge is irrelevant.
> 
> And are you really suggesting that a few feet can make that big of a difference? These guys can move that distance in literally nanoseconds.



Decide whether to take the chance, weigh his odds. Look at the scenario and see if it's worth it. Against Rayleigh he simply moved and got intercepted by a sword he obviously was not expecting to be intercepted by. He didn't even know Rayleigh would interfere at all.

_Both_ of them can move that fast. So a few feet does matter. Being at point blank range or being further away matters.



> Okay, so he was bluffing when he threatened Kizaru, yet he and his crew were willing to fight anyone who wanted to continue fighting. This makes sense to you? It is a fact that Shanks' crew was ready for battle if someone wanted to fight.
> 
> Also, if you don't think that Beckman was trying to attack, what the hell was the point of your first initial argument then? Why argue that Rayleigh had it easier than Beckman if you think Beckman could've stopped Kizaru anyway? It doesn't contribute to the discussion unless you're trying to excuse Beckman's performance.
> 
> Call me insane all you want, but it's even stupider IMO if Beckman wasn't willing to attack Kizaru even though a few pages later it is literally stated that his entire crew, including himself, is willing to attack the Marines.



It makes complete sense if you open your eyes to the circumstances. Beckman was merely saving Luffy. He was not attempting to stop the war by stopping Kizaru. All he was doing was giving Luffy some time to escape. You haven't even attempted to explain why Beckman didn't even TRY to attack. You said yourself that a few feet is nothing before. Kizaru moved a much greater distance than that, and then fired off a big attack. While this was happening Beckman did absolutely nothing. Not one single thing. He merely watched and calmly commented without the slightest sign of worry, stress or struggle. So what's your argument? During all this time (it is a lot of time to the extreme level of superhuman these characters are at) Beckman is just too slow to even lift a finger to intercept Kizaru and his immensely badass entrance as Shanks' first mate was nothing but hot air that we're meant to throw straight out of the window? That's your stance by necessity if you assume the position you currently appear to doing. It's a complete dismissal of the the incredibly impactful portrayal of one in favor of the other, and also a dismissal of the logically sound explanations as to why the portrayal of Beckman does not have to be misleading at all despite the events playing out the way they did. You're being close-minded and choosing a shockingly illogical conclusion over a perfectly sound one. I assume bias because no rational observer would draw the conclusion from those scenes that Beckman is meant to be viewed as a sack of crap with absolutely no respect and Kizaru is meant to be seen as taking 100% of the credit.

Merely to cover all bases, and also giving some justification as to why Kizaru would have been willing to attack in the situation just logistically, aside from the fact that he likely called Beckman's bluff at that point.

You're completely overlooking that the entire reason the crew was willing to take on anyone a few pages after that was Shanks issuing his ultimatum. The situation changed when he did that. At that point everyone on the island knew the conditions, knew the consequences. Issuing that ultimatum is the reason Shanks came to Marineford. He couldn't issue it with any kind of credibility if one of his crew had already gotten into a fight with an Admiral.



> Um, he did fail at a task he wanted to accomplish regardless of which viewpoint you hold. He wanted to stop Kizaru in his tracks by threatening him according to your perspective and failed. So I don't really your point here.



He didn't fail. Kizaru stopped. Luffy lived. Beckman's bluff, backed with his strength, caused Kizaru to stop and that saved Luffy's life. Calling that a failure makes you blind. Now maybe you'll give me the insane argument that, despite showing plenty of tenacity in hunting down Luffy, Kizaru just trolled all the time and never respected Beckman's strength at all. But that would merely reveal you as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about being fair. I can only then assume you just want to downplay Beckman, who is probably the last person you should be downplaying here. I've seen this before from overzealous Admiral backers. I hoped you might have more sense.



> Kizaru would be the one attacking first, just like Akainu was the one who attacked first when Shanks intercepted him.



Kizaru didn't lay a finger on the RHP. He attacked someone who had nothing to do with the war proceeding from that point onwards, and he attacked before Shanks had issued his ultimatum to everyone on the island.



> You act as if Beckman would be attacking Kizaru unprovoked, and that simply isn't the case. Anyone who is rational couldn't possibly blame Beckman for attacking Kizaru considering the fact that he gave fare warning.



It's not about blame. It's about the feelings it would instantly rile up and rekindle, the feelings of hot bloodlust that Shanks' arrival had managed to briefly quell. Shanks was there to CALM EVERYTHING DOWN and stop the fighting. Are you incapable of seeing how Beckman shooting and injuring Kizaru flies in the face of that purpose? Shanks was there to end the war with words, not weapons. His method consisted of issuing threats and relying on the fact that everyone knew his crew had the power to back it up. It's the same for Beckman, who always follows and supports his captain.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Mar 11, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Rayleigh's portrayal against Kizaru was better than Beckman's by a pretty big margin IMO. Kizaru tries to attack the Strawhats under Beckman's watch and succeeds in doing so. He tries to do the same under Rayleigh's watch and finds himself getting cut in the face. There obviously isn't much to go off of here, but as of now Rayleigh gets the nod.



Yeah I'd go for this as well. 

Whilst both in their current forms would ultimately lose to Kizaru, I think Rayleigh came out looking the tad better in his clash with him. 

Probably a high to extreme win for him. 



Beckman said:


> It's not like stopping the war was the obvious choice for Sengoku, he clearly thought it trough before making his decision. Who knows what could have put him over the edge? As you say, he might have let a fight slip if it was Kizaru who started it, but that wasn't really the case here. Kizaru didn't directly attack the sub, he started with jumping high up in the air, out of Beckmans reach. So if Beckman wanted to stop him he would have had to attack him before Kiz jumped and by such have been the aggressor.Sengoku might not have let that slip which means Beckman could have risked the whole operation.
> 
> There's also an easier way to look at it, which is that Beckman didn't do anything for plot reasons, so that the tension would stay high. It would hardly be the most controversial PIS in the series.



I can see your (and Corus') logic however the problem I see is that your assuming that it's actually feasible for Beckman to analyse all the possibilities and outcomes of attacking Kizaru in that split second. Remember, the whole incident happened in a blink of an eye; at one moment Kizaru seemed pinned down and probably within a couple of seconds (given his speed) he's jumped and launched his YnM at Law's submarine. I mean Beckman's meant to be smart but it's unrealistic to assume he can process that amount of information that fast. 

So then we have two options to pick from:

1) He was unable to react in time to Kizaru's speed and mobility to stop him attacking

2) He instinctively withdrew from attacking because he was already pre biased towards not attacking him. 

Personally, despite Gohara's absolutely ridiculous babbling and excuse making with regards to the scene, I thought with Oda adding the panel with him clearly expressing frustration at Kizaru getting away and attacking the sub, it's much more likely that option one is correct. I don't think you add that unless you want to indicate a slight superiority towads Kizaru. Not that there's any shame for Beckman in not being to react there considering that Kizaru is a contender, if not a cert for the fastest man in the OPverse. It'd be nothing less than high difficulty between the pair of them.


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Coruscation said:


> Decide whether to take the chance, weigh his odds. Look at the scenario and see if it's worth it. Against Rayleigh he simply moved and got intercepted by a sword he obviously was not expecting to be intercepted by. He didn't even know Rayleigh would interfere at all.
> 
> _Both_ of them can move that fast. So a few feet does matter. Being at point blank range or being further away matters.



You're just spouting irrelevant nonsense. Okay, he got to weigh his chances. He then decided that it was worth attacking Luffy, just like he decided it was worth attacking Luffy when he was in the presence of Rayleigh. What advantage does determining that he should attack Luffy give him in actually attacking Luffy? Like I said, all it did was impact his decision making process because he got to make the decision with more info than he had in the situation with Rayleigh. That has nothing to do with actually getting off the attack itself. 

And he didn't know Rayleigh would interfere? Rayleigh just stopped him from attacking Zoro. Why the hell would he now choose to sit back and let Kizaru kill the people he had just previously attempted to save? 



> It makes complete sense if you open your eyes to the circumstances. Beckman was merely saving Luffy. He was not attempting to stop the war by stopping Kizaru.



He wants to save Luffy, so he allows someone who is trying to kill Luffy to attack him. Um, what? 



> All he was doing was giving Luffy some time to escape.



So you think his mindset was, "Okay, I'm going to try my best to divert Kizaru's attention away from attacking Luffy for now, but then later I'm just going to let the guy go wild because Luffy _might_ have gotten far enough away"? That's laughable to me. 



> I assume bias because no rational observer would draw the conclusion from those scenes that Beckman is meant to be viewed as a sack of crap with absolutely no respect and Kizaru is meant to be seen as taking 100% of the credit.



Straw man. 



> You're completely overlooking that the entire reason the crew was willing to take on anyone a few pages after that was Shanks issuing his ultimatum. The situation changed when he did that. At that point everyone on the island knew the conditions, knew the consequences. Issuing that ultimatum is the reason Shanks came to Marineford. He couldn't issue it with any kind of credibility if one of his crew had already gotten into a fight with an Admiral.



Beckman already issued a warning to Kizaru by pointing a gun to his head and telling him not to move a muscle. That's plenty enough reason for Kizaru to think that Beckman would attack him if he tried anything, and that's plenty enough warning for Beckman to be justified in shooting him if he tried anything.  



> He didn't fail. Kizaru stopped. Luffy lived. Beckman's bluff, backed with his strength, caused Kizaru to stop and that saved Luffy's life. Calling that a failure makes you blind.



His goal was to stop Kizaru from attacking Luffy. It wasn't to give Kizaru a chance to kill Luffy and then hope that he'd fail in doing so. Yes, it happened to work out in his favor, but from his perspective he had no way of knowing it would. From his perspective, he wants to save Luffy, and letting Kizaru attack Luffy with an attack that covered an entire ocean isn't a safe way to do that, regardless of whether or not it worked. 

The only way your argument works is if you think his goal was to make a scenario where there's a chance Luffy would die and a chance he would live. Because that's what happened. 



> Now maybe you'll give me the insane argument that, despite showing plenty of tenacity in hunting down Luffy, Kizaru just trolled all the time and never respected Beckman's strength at all. But that would merely reveal you as someone who doesn't give a rat's ass about being fair. I can only then assume you just want to downplay Beckman, who is probably the last person you should be downplaying here. I've seen this before from overzealous Admiral backers. I hoped you might have more sense.



Not even close. Aren't you the one who used to advocate for the idea that members should read the entirety of a debate before jumping in? If you did, you'd understand why this part of your post is vacuous. 



> Kizaru didn't lay a finger on the RHP. He attacked someone who had nothing to do with the war proceeding from that point onwards, and he attacked before Shanks had issued his ultimatum to everyone on the island.



You didn't respond to my point at all. Coby and Luffy are both not part of the RHP, yet Shanks was willing to physically step in to save Coby whereas Beckman wasn't physically willing to step in to save Luffy. That doesn't make any sense. 



> It's not about blame. It's about the feelings it would instantly rile up and rekindle, the feelings of hot bloodlust that Shanks' arrival had managed to briefly quell. Shanks was there to CALM EVERYTHING DOWN and stop the fighting. Are you incapable of seeing how Beckman shooting and injuring Kizaru flies in the face of that purpose? Shanks was there to end the war with words, not weapons. His method consisted of issuing threats and relying on the fact that everyone knew his crew had the power to back it up. It's the same for Beckman, who always follows and supports his captain.



Sengoku isn't some mindless pup who relies on emotion to make his decisions. He is a seasoned veteran. So yes, I'm incapable of understanding how he would get so riled up as to risk losing _massive_ casualties just because one of his soldiers decided to go off on his own and attack an enemy despite being warned and ended up getting injured because of it. That would be incredibly stupid of him.

You keep saying the same thing as if Sengoku is some bull where if he sees red all form of logical thought immediately goes out the window and he becomes a bloodlusted killing machine. That simply isn't the case. Kizaru getting injured due to his own mistake would not make him go insane.


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## HisMajestyMihawk (Mar 11, 2015)

Beckman failed to stop Kizaru attacking Luffy

Old Ray stopped Kizaru dead in his tracks

Prime Ray would low diff Beckman


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## Akitō (Mar 11, 2015)

Beckman said:


> It's not like stopping the war was the obvious choice for Sengoku, he clearly thought it trough before making his decision.



Uh, yes it was the obvious decision. Why the hell would he risk literally losing _Admirals_ and thousands of other soldiers when they had already completed their main objective? That would completely cripple the WG. 



> Who knows what could have put him over the edge? As you say, he might have let a fight slip if it was Kizaru who started it, but that wasn't really the case here. Kizaru didn't directly attack the sub, he started with jumping high up in the air, out of Beckmans reach. So if Beckman wanted to stop him he would have had to attack him before Kiz jumped and by such have been the aggressor.Sengoku might not have let that slip which means Beckman could have risked the whole operation.



Why can't he stop him when he's in the air and starting his attack? Beckman has a long ranged weapon, and these people have amazing physical stats, so I really doubt that jumping high in the air makes Kizaru invulnerable to Beckman. Or, Beckman could've attacked him after he moved but before he "got out of range" (whatever the hell that means). 



> There's also an easier way to look at it, which is that Beckman didn't do anything for plot reasons, so that the tension would stay high. It would hardly be the most controversial PIS in the series.



I'm willing to entertain this idea, honestly. Now that I've thought about it, both sides don't make much sense. One assumes that Beckman was too weak to stop Kizaru and the other assumes that Beckman and Sengoku are complete idiots.


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## Dr. White (Mar 11, 2015)

lol at comparing Ralyeigh's situation to Beckman's


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## Beckman (Mar 12, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Uh, yes it was the obvious decision. Why the hell would he risk literally losing _Admirals_ and thousands of other soldiers when they had already completed their main objective? That would completely cripple the WG.



He already showed to be willing to do all those things when he and the government decided to declare war on Whitebeard. While Ace was the main target Akainu made it obvious that Luffy was almost as important. There was also the whole Teach situation, that was probably the best chanse the Marines would ever have to take down someone who would be one hell of a big threat later. 





> Why can't he stop him when he's in the air and starting his attack? Beckman has a long ranged weapon, and these people have amazing physical stats, so I really doubt that jumping high in the air makes Kizaru invulnerable to Beckman. Or, Beckman could've attacked him after he moved but before he "got out of range" (whatever the hell that means).



Because that would make Beckman the aggressor. Attacking one of the Marine top dogs just because he moves away is a pretty damn weak reason. Once Yata no Magatama is initiated it's almost impossible to block, unlike a single light kick. With "out of range" I meant that Beckman wouldn't be able to engage him in close combat until Kizaru had already finnished his attack. He could ofc attacked him with bullets, but Kiz should be able to counter that with CoA + logia intangibility like he did against WBs bisento.




> I'm willing to entertain this idea, honestly. Now that I've thought about it, both sides don't make much sense. One assumes that Beckman was too weak to stop Kizaru and the other assumes that Beckman and Sengoku are complete idiots.



Fine by me.


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## Beckman (Mar 12, 2015)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> Yeah I'd go for this as well.
> 
> Whilst both in their current forms would ultimately lose to Kizaru, I think Rayleigh came out looking the tad better in his clash with him.
> 
> ...



To each and his own then, but I think that discredits Beckman way to much. I mean, Marco didn't have any trouble matching Kizarus speed and afaik you rate Beckman higher than him. Pulling a trigger shouldn't be that hard.

The way I see it his frustration wasn't caused by not being capable of stopping Kiz but that the situation didn't allow him.


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## Akitō (Mar 12, 2015)

Beckman said:


> He already showed to be willing to do all those things when he and the government decided to declare war on Whitebeard. While Ace was the main target Akainu made it obvious that Luffy was almost as important. There was also the whole Teach situation, that was probably the best chanse the Marines would ever have to take down someone who would be one hell of a big threat later.



That was for a clear reason: to execute Ace. This would be just mindless killing for no clear purpose. Not only that, but his soldiers are already weakened, so the battle is going to be more lethal for the Marines than it normally would've been if they were fresh. It would be incredibly stupid of him to risk losing Admirals and tons of troops for no other reason than to "kill more pirates". Ace's execution was crucial because of its symbolic value due to him being Roger's son and also the physical value due to his massive potential, but anything more than that is unnecessary. 

Moreover, they're facing a much MUCH stronger force now than they were previously. The pirates lost Whitebeard and Ace and gained an entire Yonkou crew. That's a massive boost. They also lost an entire top-tier, which is a massive decrease. 

It's the exact same reason that Coby thought it was best to stop the war. Anyone rational realized that at that point in time, the war wasn't worth continuing. 



> Because that would make Beckman the aggressor. Attacking one of the Marine top dogs just because he moves away is a pretty damn weak reason.



Not at all. If Kizaru was about to attack Luffy but stopped because of Beckman's threat, one can reasonably assume that his next attack will be on Luffy too. And so if he moves to prepare for that next attack, he is obviously the aggressor regardless of whether or not he gets the attack off. 



> He could ofc attacked him with bullets, but Kiz should be able to counter that with CoA + logia intangibility like he did against WBs bisento.



Okay, so you think that Beckman pointing a gun at Kizaru was a completely empty threat not because of his unwillingness to use it, but rather because it wouldn't hurt Kizaru even if he pulls the trigger? I find that really hard to believe, sorry.


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## trance (Mar 12, 2015)

I mean, if Shanks and his crew are going to issue an ultimatum like that, they should be fully prepared in case an incident did unfold. So, I don't see why Benn wouldn't be prepared to attack Kizaru in that instance. What happened is, he didn't. Whether that means he couldn't and is inferior to Kizaru/Rayleigh isn't completely fact but I feel it should weigh pretty heavily on the fact that Kizaru is simply quite a handful for Benn to deal with.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 12, 2015)

Leaning towards Beckman 60-40.


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## Gohara (Mar 12, 2015)

@ Akito.

-What Issho links.  As for Kizaru landing on a different ship, there's a line above him that shows which angle he jumped down from, and it almost points straight up in the air.  They were also on a Marine ship, and the one Kizaru lands on seems to be a Marine ship.  Even setting all that aside, what you're saying here still suggests that Kizaru wants to avoid a fight with Beckman.

-Technically it's a difference of several pages, and there's still the difference of Lucky Roo being next to Shanks on that page whereas Beckman is in a separate area from the crew.  So Beckman would have had to cover a bigger distance in a relatively significantly shorter amount of time.

-Fair enough.  If you aren't arguing that Kizaru isn't joking around with Beckman, then my apologies for misunderstanding.  Still, Kizaru's mentality is important in my point that he would have to have a very good reason to give Luffy a much bigger chance of escaping.  As for what you're saying here, Rayleigh is directly engaging Kizaru at the time while Beckman isn't.


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## Turrin (Mar 12, 2015)

I think people are trying to draw blood from a stone when comparing Beckman's and Raleigh's performances against Kizaru. Raleigh was able to stop Kizaru from attacking the Straw-Hats, while Beckman failed to, but Yasaka Magatama is a much more difficult attack to prevent than anything Kizaru attempted to utilize against the Straw-Hats while faced with Raleigh. Additionally in Kizaru vs Raleigh, Kizaru wouldn't really feel it necessary to take the initaitive himself to destroy them, as not only were they less high-value-targets at the time, but Kuma, Pacifista, and Sentomaru would have been enough to massacre the straw-hats, if he simply held off Raliegh. So Kizaru not going out of his way to utilize a more powerful technique that Raleigh might not have been able to defend the SH's against, was not something Kizaru had to go out of his way to do and it actually would be more efficient to save his strength for dealing with Raliegh. Of course in hind-sight he probably should have as Kuma's betrayal allowed the SH's to escape, but Kizaru didn't know Kuma would betray him at the that time. So yeah I think the situations are incomparable enough that to draw any real conclusions about Beckman's and Raleigh's strength from these interactions is a fools game.

With that said, I do think Raleigh's hype has been more equatable to the hype of a Yonko, than someone like Beckman. For starters he's the FM of the PK, while Beckman is only the FM of a notable Yonko (Shanks). Also the way his legendary status was mention in the same breath as WB's and how taking him on before Marine-ford would be foolish, also puts his status more closely on par with someone like Shanks, whose appearance ended the war as the Marines didn't want to take on someone like him as well as WB. However in the case of Raliegh's hype the question has always been how much are the characters in question aware of Raleigh's decline w/ age, I.E. are they talking more about Prime-Ray's prowess or is Old-Ray still that strong. 

If it's the former than Prime-Ray would be around the strength of Old-WB and Shanks, while Old-Ray would be a decent amount weaker than that and probably more around Marco in strength. In which case Beckman who also is probably around Marco in strength, would be solidly defeated by Prime-Ray, but could potentially have a close fight against Old-Ray or towards the top of his potential strength pull a win w/ a great deal of difficulty. However if it's the latter and Ray even old and out of shape is around Old-WB and Shanks, while Prime-Ray is even stronger than them, than Prime-Ray would deal with Beckman w/o much difficulty and Old-Ray would still solidly defeat Beckman.

There's nothing truly conclusive that says one interpretation or the other must be correct at the moment, though my personal belief is that it falls close to the second scheme w/ Old-Ray being around Shanks and Old-WB, while Prime-Ray is even stronger than that. Simply due to the fact that Roger is >= Prime-WB, and therefore I would imagine Ray as his Zoro equivalent doesn't fall so far off from him in strength, that there is a bigger gap between Roger and Ray than there is between, Prime-WB and Old-WB; as that ether necessitates that handicaps of illness and age being undermined too much or the Roger pirate dynamic being too radically different than the SH's dynamic, when I'd imagine them to be much more similar dynamics, for story structure purposes.

So basically while I still think we don't have enough evidence to call this, my gut tells me Old-Ray would beat Beckman, but not due to their performances against Kizaru, which I truly feel tells us nothing.


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## Lawliet (Mar 12, 2015)

I'm not going to read all that crap about Kizaru vs Benn. But the way I see it.. Kizaru took the opportunity to attack Luffy for one last time hoping the attack would kill him before the end of the war. It felt like Kizaru and the higher ups knew what Shanks came for. No one attacked a red-haired before letting them say what they came for, which suggests the marines at least had a small belief that a fight between them and Shanks isn't necessary on that day. I believe what was going on in Kizaru's head would be something like this "I might get interrupted/attacked by Benn, but at least I'll launch one more attack on Strawhat before the end of the war, if he dies, great, if not, oh well, he's lucky"


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## trance (Mar 12, 2015)

I'd honestly say that Rayleigh is stronger than any of the Emperor first mates and the closest being to the Admirals/Emperors in power.


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## Akitō (Mar 12, 2015)

Gohara said:


> As for Kizaru landing on a different ship, there's a line above him that shows which angle he jumped down from, and it almost points straight up in the air.  They were also on a Marine ship, and the one Kizaru lands on seems to be a Marine ship.



He could've jumped at an angle and landed straight below where he jumped to. 



> Even setting all that aside, what you're saying here still suggests that Kizaru wants to avoid a fight with Beckman.



Regardless of which side you believe in, Kizaru would want to avoid Beckman. So this doesn't really prove your point. 



> Technically it's a difference of several pages, and there's still the difference of Lucky Roo being next to Shanks on that page whereas Beckman is in a separate area from the crew.  So Beckman would have had to cover a bigger distance in a relatively significantly shorter amount of time.



And you're assuming Beckman couldn't have done this because...? Unless you're suggesting that Lucky Roo literally ran down as fast as he could to Shanks, then I don't at all see why Beckman couldn't have simply ran faster relative to his max speed than Lucky Roo did. The conclusions that you're drawing from the evidence are pulled out of nowhere. 



> As for what you're saying here, Rayleigh is directly engaging Kizaru at the time while Beckman isn't.



Beckman didn't directly engage Kizaru because he missed the opportunity or because of PIS. That can't be used as an excuse for him not stopping Kizaru because that's his own fault and he should be expected to directly engage him if he wants to ensure he doesn't kill Luffy.


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## Gohara (Mar 12, 2015)

-Beckman and Kizaru are on the right side of the sail with Kizaru being right of Beckman.  If Kizaru were to jump into the air to the left, which is what he would have to do in that scenario since the angle of him coming down is from right to left, then he would have to pass Beckman's direct line of vision.

-Kizaru wanting to avoid fighting Beckman is one of my points.  

-Lucky Roo is already next to Shanks before we even see Beckman prior to him going where Shanks and the other Red Hair Pirate Commanders are.  So Lucky Roo has just as much distance to travel as Shanks does, and more time to do it than Beckman.  So, in other words, bringing up Lucky Roo is a rather moot point.  Beckman would still have to go all the way from the top of that ship to the middle of the battlefield in just a couple pages.

-Rayleigh fights Kizaru at close range.  Beckman engages Kizaru at long range.  Whether or not Beckman chooses to engage Kizaru directly doesn't have much to do with power.


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## Akitō (Mar 13, 2015)

Gohara said:


> -Beckman and Kizaru are on the right side of the sail with Kizaru being right of Beckman.  If Kizaru were to jump into the air to the left, which is what he would have to do in that scenario since the angle of him coming down is from right to left, then he would have to pass Beckman's direct line of vision.



No. Just because the angle of him coming down is from right to left doesn't mean that he had to jump to the left. He could've easily jumped to the right and simply landed more to the right than he originally was. In other words, he doesn't have to have jumped in front of Beckman, which is what I'm assuming you mean by Beckman's direct line of vision. 



> Rayleigh fights Kizaru at close range.  Beckman engages Kizaru at long range.  Whether or not Beckman chooses to engage Kizaru directly doesn't have much to do with power.



I'm lost as to what this is trying to argue. How does this relate to what you quoted? I'm assuming that the reason you brought up Beckman indirectly engaging Kizaru was to highlight Rayleigh's advantage in stopping Kizaru due to him directly engaging Kizaru, in which case I don't understand why Beckman couldn't have just directly engaged Kizaru to stop Luffy like Rayleigh did if that would've helped him like you're implying it would have.


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## Gohara (Mar 13, 2015)

-The angle shows him slightly moving to the left.  Also, with the amount of ships we see, that wouldn't work.

-I'm under the impression that you're saying Rayleigh has the edge in terms of power because his feat of stopping Kizaru is more impressive than Beckman's feat of not stopping Kizaru.  However, Beckman is using a long ranged weapon.  If that's not what you're saying, then my apologies.


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## Akitō (Mar 13, 2015)

Gohara said:


> -The angle shows him slightly moving to the left.  Also, with the amount of ships we see, that wouldn't work.



The angle of what? We don't see him jumping up. And what wouldn't work? 



> I'm under the impression that you're saying Rayleigh has the edge in terms of power because his feat of stopping Kizaru is more impressive than Beckman's feat of not stopping Kizaru.  However, Beckman is using a long ranged weapon.  If that's not what you're saying, then my apologies.



His long ranged weapon is a part of his arsenal. Rayleigh's sword is a part of his. You can't use the lack of a sword or close-ranged weapon as an excuse for Beckman because that's inherent in his style and strength. That's like me saying that  Whitebeard's feat of beating down Akainu isn't more impressive than Ace's feat of getting beat down by Akainu because Whitebeard is stronger than Ace. Like, what? 

It almost seems like you are conceding the fact that Beckman couldn't have stopped Kizaru because he was using a long-ranged weapon.


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## Canute87 (Mar 13, 2015)

You compare rayleigh to yonkous not their first mates under normal circumstances.

Too bad old rayleigh isn't in awesome shape like Garp.  

I'd give it to Benn Beckman because of his name.


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## Wayne With The Ism (Mar 14, 2015)

Old Ray~Beckman, fight goes either way.


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## Imagine (Mar 14, 2015)

Probably Beckman. Old Ray is out of shape and all that jazz. Ray's stamina is low by OP character standards is which is still astronomically high, so it is in no way heavily in Backman's favor.

Prime Ray is a different story altogether.


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## Gohara (Mar 14, 2015)

@ Akito.

-The angle that shows where he's coming down from.  Jumping to the right and then coming down more to the right doesn't work because of that angle, and because of where he is while using that technique.  If he jumps to the right, he just comes back down to the left.  If he jumps to the left, he has to pass Beckman's line of vision.

-That inherent style, if that even is Beckman's only and usual style, doesn't work against him in a fight.  It only works against him compared to Rayleigh in terms of the specific circumstances they were in at the time in regards to helping Luffy.  You aren't more powerful based on how much you can help Luffy.


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## Akitō (Mar 14, 2015)

Gohara said:


> The angle that shows where he's coming down from.  *Jumping to the right and then coming down more to the right doesn't work because of that angle, and because of where he is while using that technique.*  If he jumps to the right, he just comes back down to the left.  If he jumps to the left, he has to pass Beckman's line of vision.



Don't understand what you're talking about when you say the bolded. The angle shows that he is coming down from the right. That has no relevance to where he jumped to - it is only relavent to where he is coming from relative to where he is landing to. Regardless of whether he jumped to the right or left, he can still come down from the right relative to where he jumped from. That is a fact. 

And I don't see how the very limited perspective we see of him (literally only his face or a general view that we can't possibly use to determine where he ended up relative to where he was previously) using the technique can make you believe that he couldn't have jumped to the right. 



> -That inherent style, if that even is Beckman's only and usual style, doesn't work against him in a fight.  It only works against him compared to Rayleigh in terms of the specific circumstances they were in at the time in regards to helping Luffy.  You aren't more powerful based on how much you can help Luffy.



Er, you better hope that it's his only style for the sake of your argument or it falls apart completely. And I seriously doubt that it's his only style because what top-tier can't engage in close range? I almost feel like you don't really know what you're arguing for.


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## Gohara (Mar 14, 2015)

-I'm referring to your suggestion that he may have jumped to the right and then jumped back down to the right, but the line drawn shows him jumping down to the left.  If he jumped to the right and then back down to the left, it would fit what I'm saying.  If he jumped to the left in the first place, then he would have to cross Beckman's line of vision.  We see where the energy blasts are coming from, and due to that we can determine where he is when using that technique.

-Not really, because either way Beckman had a gun in his hand at the time.  Either way, though, the main point is that the comparison doesn't really favor Rayleigh in terms of power because power isn't determined by who can help Luffy more in the different circumstances they're in.


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## Akitō (Mar 14, 2015)

Gohara said:


> -I'm referring to your suggestion that he may have jumped to the right and then jumped back down to the right, but the line drawn shows him jumping down to the left.  If he jumped to the right and then back down to the left, it would fit what I'm saying.  If he jumped to the left in the first place, then he would have to cross Beckman's line of vision.  We see where the energy blasts are coming from, and due to that we can determine where he is when using that technique.



Okay, I think you're confused. Nowhere did I say that he jumps to the right and then back down to the right. I'm assuming that when you say "back down to the right", you mean that his downward trajectory was to the right. 

I'm saying that he jumped to the right, and then _landed to the right of where he originally was_. In other words, he jumped up to the right, and then his downward trajectory was to the left towards a spot that was to the right of the ship that he originally was on. 

The fact that you said this shows that you don't know what you're arguing for: "If he jumped to the right and then back down to the left, it would fit what I'm saying." This is literally what I've been saying this entire time. His upward trajectory was to the right and his downward trajectory was to the left. This absolutely does not fit what you are saying because the original argument that you made was that Kizaru had to have jumped through Beckman's field of vision, which is not true at all as you just said in the sentence above. 

To recap, this was your original argument that started this particular debate: 



> If Kizaru were to jump into the air to the left, which is what he would have to do in that scenario since the angle of him coming down is from right to left, then he would have to pass Beckman's direct line of vision.



This is false for reasons that you yourself explained in your last post. 



> Not really, because either way Beckman had a gun in his hand at the time.  Either way, though, the main point is that the comparison doesn't really favor Rayleigh in terms of power because power isn't determined by who can help Luffy more in the different circumstances they're in.



Uh, so? He can't engage in close range because he has a gun in his hand? He can just holster his gun. 

If you really have to be so specific as to have the exact same circumstances in order to make a comparison, then whatever. It's pretty clear to me that the circumstances were similar enough that Rayleigh could've helped Luffy had he been in the same situation as Beckman was in if he wanted to.


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## Gohara (Mar 14, 2015)

-You said:



Akitō said:


> He could've easily jumped to the right and simply landed more to the right than he originally was.



"More to the right" Is why I thought you were saying he would jump to the right and jump down to the right at the time as well as the fact that jumping from the right to left would still have him going back in Beckman's direction when you were trying to say that he's moving away from Beckman.  If you mean Beckman jumping to the left is false, then I agree.  That's actually one of my points here.

-Kizaru isn't just going to sit there while he changes weapons, though.  The circumstances don't have to be exactly the same, but the different circumstances in that case are important.  Also, there's still my point that helping Luffy doesn't really determine power.


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## Akitō (Mar 14, 2015)

Gohara said:


> "More to the right" Is why I thought you were saying he would jump to the right and jump down to the right at the time as well as the fact that jumping from the right to left would still have him going back in Beckman's direction



Do you get it now? 



> when you were trying to say that he's moving away from Beckman.



No, I didn't. If you still think this, then you still must be confused and need to reread the previous posts of mine. There is a _big_ difference between moving towards Beckman and moving through his field of vision. I support the first stance and disagree with the second stance.

The fact remains that your original claim was that Kizaru had to have moved through Beckman's field of vision, which is completely false as you and I have both stated in this discussion. Do you accept this? 



> If you mean Beckman jumping to the left is false, then I agree.  That's actually one of my points here.



I'm assuming you mean "If you mean Kizaru jumping to the left is false, then I agree." because Beckman jumping any direction during the period of time that we're referring to is completely baseless and irrelevant to the discussion (I think we can both agree that Beckman wasn't the one jumping). If you agree with that, then why the hell did you earlier say the exact opposite? 



> Kizaru isn't just going to sit there while he changes weapons, though.



Changing weapons? He has to put a gun into a holster. That literally almost takes no time at all. In fact, he can do it while he's moving towards Kizaru to engage in close-range. Having to change weapons will have no impact on how he engages Kizaru. 



> Also, there's still my point that helping Luffy doesn't really determine power.



Does it exactly indicate who's stronger? No, of course not. But I at least sure as hell believe that it's some indication.


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## Daisuke Jigen (Mar 14, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Uh, so? He can't engage in close range because he has a gun in his hand? He can just holster his gun.


He could also have used it as a melee weapon


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## Gohara (Mar 15, 2015)

@ Akito.

-When I say that you're saying he's trying to move away from him, I'm referring to you saying that he jumped to the right to move away from Beckman.

-The issues I still have with that are A. There aren't that many ships to the left of where Kizaru is, so jumping back down to the left should basically put him where Beckman is, and B. That would put Beckman even further away from where the other Red Hair Pirates making it even more odd that he would have been able to cover that much ground in just a couple pages.

-Yes, that's what I mean.  My apologies.  I'm saying Kizaru came back down to the left, not jumped up to the left.

-Then he has to draw another weapon.  That may not sound like it would take much time, but it does when you're talking about a fight between two super powered beings, and especially one as fast as Kizaru.  That scenario involves Kizaru just standing there and waiting for Beckman to engage him.

-Fair enough.  I suppose we'll just have to agree to disagree on that point.


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## Akitō (Mar 15, 2015)

Gohara said:


> When I say that you're saying he's trying to move away from him, I'm referring to you saying that he jumped to the right to move away from Beckman.



Okay. Do you understand that this is completely irrelevant to the direction that he's moving in on his downwards trajectory? Just look at your two sentences man. You acknowledge that you understand that I was referring to his initial upwards trajectory when I say that he was "moving away from Beckman". You also acknowledge that you understand that his downward trajectory is not the same thing as his upward trajectory.

Thus, I must conclude that you're either lying to yourself about what you thought I said or your thought process on this point is completely illogical. Because if you know that I was referring to only his upwards trajectory when I said that he was moving away from Beckman, then Kizaru moving towards Beckman on his downwards trajectory should not contradict anything that I said in your mind. Unfortunately, in your mind it for some reason did. 

To reiterate, this sentence makes absolutely no sense in the context of what you thought I said:



> jumping from the right to left would still have him going back in Beckman's direction when you were trying to say that he's moving away from Beckman



Again, you acknowledge that you understand that "moving away from Beckman" only refers to him jumping *up* away from Beckman, not *down* away from Beckman. Thus, jumping from the right to left (which would indeed be towards Beckman) on his way *down* does not contradict my initial claim because as you yourself acknowledged, my initial claim stated that Kizaru was moving away from Beckman on his way *up*. The only way your thought process makes sense is if I said that Kizaru was moving away from Beckman on his way down. 



> There aren't that many ships to the left of where Kizaru is, so jumping back down to the left should basically put him where Beckman is



Completely wrong. Kizaru is facing us when he is using Yasakani no Magatana. From his perspective (which is the perspective that we're supposed to be looking at), to his left, there are several ships. 



> That would put Beckman even further away from where the other Red Hair Pirates making it even more odd that he would have been able to cover that much ground in just a couple pages.



What is "that" and how does "that" put Beckman farther away from the other RHP? Beckman isn't even moving. Also, please don't start your sentences with pronouns that give no indication of what you're talking about. Moreover, try to quote the specific parts that you're responding to – it makes it significantly easier for people (including me) to follow what's going on. 

And even if it does, that in no way means that it is "odd" that he could've covered such a distance. You are just making baseless assertions. 



> I'm saying Kizaru came back down to the left, not jumped up to the left.



_Do you acknowledge that you were wrong when you said this then_: 



> If Kizaru were to jump into the air to the left, which is what he would have to do in that scenario since the angle of him coming down is from right to left, then he would have to pass Beckman's direct line of vision.



I'm going to bold this next part in order to emphasize it.

*Please actually respond to the italicized portion instead of dodging the concession. You insist for some odd reason on trying to divert this point by telling me what you thought I said instead of just stating the fact that you were wrong. Right now, I still have no idea if you actually understand that you were wrong or if you are still confused. Telling me what you thought I said isn't at all helping the discussion, and I've no idea why you think it would. *



> Then he has to draw another weapon.  That may not sound like it would take much time, but it does when you're talking about a fight between two super powered beings, and especially one as fast as Kizaru.



Explain to me where this idea that Beckman couldn't holster a gun and pull out another weapon (if he needs one, which he doesn't) while he's moving towards Kizaru came from. Moreover, explain to me why Beckman can't just hit Kizaru with his gun to interrupt his attack. Also, explain to me why he can't just use his fists or legs to interrupt the attack. He isn't trying to do severe damage – all he's doing is disrupting Kizaru's attention or attack. 



> That scenario involves Kizaru just standing there and waiting for Beckman to engage him.



You are completely missing the point. The point is that Beckman is trying to stop Kizaru from attacking someone else. If Beckman is charging towards Kizaru, Kizaru isn't just going to ignore him and continue his attack.


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## Gohara (Mar 16, 2015)

Akitō said:


> Okay. Do you understand that this is completely irrelevant to the direction that he's moving in on his downwards trajectory? Just look at your two sentences man. You acknowledge that you understand that I was referring to his initial upwards trajectory when I say that he was "moving away from Beckman". You also acknowledge that you understand that his downward trajectory is not the same thing as his upward trajectory.



You thought I was confused at the time, and I'm simply explaining with the way you worded it that it appeared as though what I thought you were saying is indeed what you were saying.  I then also pointed out that you state Kizaru is trying to move away from Beckman, and what you responded back with leads me to believe that you didn't understand what I was referring to, which is that you state Kizaru jumped to the right for the purpose of moving away from Beckman.  Thus going back towards him would be counterproductive to that.  That leads to our next points:



Akitō said:


> Kizaru is facing us when he is using Yasakani no Magatana. From his perspective (which is the perspective that we're supposed to be looking at), to his left, there are several ships.



I'm not saying Kizaru isn't facing towards us.  He's hovering over a couple ships, and there are only two or three to the left of the light.  Going down to the left would still put him right around Beckman's area.  Additionally, that puts Beckman even further away from the other Red Hair Pirates.



Akitō said:


> What is "that" and how does "that" put Beckman farther away from the other RHP?



That is your point that Beckman is on one of the ships most to the left from the way they're facing, and that puts him even further away than he would be in my point if he were still on the ship they confronted on in which it already seems unlikely that he would be able to cover that much ground in two or three pages.



Akitō said:


> Also, please don't start your sentences with pronouns that give no indication of what you're talking about.



My apologies.  I thought it went without saying that I was referring to your point, but with all the points we're discussing I can see how it confused you.



Akitō said:


> Moreover, try to quote the specific parts that you're responding to ? it makes it significantly easier for people (including me) to follow what's going on.



My apologies.  I'm busy outside of this forum, so sometimes I just respond to what I'm reading at the time without quoting to make it faster, but I'll try to quote your posts in this debate.



Akitō said:


> And even if it does, that in no way means that it is "odd" that he could've covered such a distance.



I respectfully disagree.  Going across nearly the entire battlefield in just two or three pages is pretty insane, and I'm fairly certain we haven't seen that much ground covered on foot by any other character in the series in two or three pages.



Akitō said:


> I'm going to bold this next part in order to emphasize it.



Ah, I see where you're confused now.  I'm not actually saying that Kizaru jumps to the left.  I'm saying if Beckman is still on the ship, Kizaru jumping to the left is the only way it would really fit unless he just wants to land back right around where Beckman is and for it not to put Beckman even further away from the other Red Hair Pirates.



Akitō said:


> Explain to me where this idea that Beckman couldn't holster a gun and pull out another weapon (if he needs one, which he doesn't) while he's moving towards Kizaru came from.



It's not that he can't do it, it's that it's unlikely that Kizaru is just going to stand there.  Beckman likely knows that.  That goes for your other questions as well.



Akitō said:


> You are completely missing the point. The point is that Beckman is trying to stop Kizaru from attacking someone else. If Beckman is charging towards Kizaru, Kizaru isn't just going to ignore him and continue his attack.



Beckman leaving himself vulnerable to Kizaru's techniques while he's switching weapons when instead he can just hold him where he is with his long ranged techniques seems counterproductive.  Additionally, that's if we assume Kizaru doesn't just jump into the air while Beckman is running.


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## Akitō (Mar 17, 2015)

Gohara said:


> Thus going back towards him would be counterproductive to that.



If you actually understood the context of the argument, you'd understand why your interpretation is completely illogical. Kizaru jumped to the right so that he _wasn't moving through Beckman's direct field of vision_ before the attack. That was what this point was about. What happens after he uses the attack is completely irrelevant because Beckman was already looking at him at that point as we saw in those chapters. 



> I'm not saying Kizaru isn't facing towards us.  He's hovering over a couple ships, and there are only two or three to the left of the light.  Going down to the left would still put him right around Beckman's area.



Literally the most left part of the page we see a ship. How the hell do you know that there are no other ships to the left of that? This is a sea filled with ships, and that one panel only gives us a limited perspective of that sea. You are making baseless assumptions. 



> which it already seems unlikely that he would be able to cover that much ground in two or three pages.



Completely baseless. 



> I respectfully disagree.  Going across nearly the entire battlefield in just two or three pages is pretty insane, and I'm fairly certain we haven't seen that much ground covered on foot by any other character in the series in two or three pages.



We don't know how much time went by in those two or three pages nor do we know the distance that was traveled nor do we know how fast these characters can exactly move. So you saying it is unlikely is completely baseless. Just off the top of my head, Rayleigh traveled a seemingly pretty large distance in an extremely short period of time when he interrupted Kizaru's attack on Zoro. 


How do you know that he would have to be going across the entire battlefield? You don't know where Shanks is in that picture. 


> Beckman leaving himself vulnerable to Kizaru's techniques while he's switching weapons when instead he can just hold him where he is with his long ranged techniques seems counterproductive.



Wait, so you think that Beckman could've stopped Kizaru's attack by just shooting at him? Why didn't he do that in the manga then? If not, how can he hold Kizaru there with his gun? This entire point started because you said that Beckman had his gun out but couldn't do anything with it because it's not a useful weapon in that situation, which is why Rayleigh had the advantage and thus it's unfair to compare their situations. 



> Additionally, that's if we assume Kizaru doesn't just jump into the air while Beckman is running.



Beckman can jump into the air too then. This point is irrelevant though depending on your answer to the above portion of my post.

I'm going to bow out of this debate. It's extremely obvious to me that your argument is almost comically weak, but you clearly aren't changing your mind, so there's no point in continuing this discussion.


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## Gohara (Mar 17, 2015)

Akitō said:


> What happens after he uses the attack is completely irrelevant because Beckman was already looking at him at that point as we saw in those chapters.



Kizaru isn't out of the water just because he has already got his technique off.  Unless he doesn't think he can ward off Beckman without much of a problem, he has no reason to move away from Beckman.  Otherwise facing Beckman still becomes an issue.



Akitō said:


> Literally the most left part of the page we see a ship. How the hell do you know that there are no other ships to the left of that? This is a sea filled with ships, and that one panel only gives us a limited perspective of that sea.
> 
> We don't know how much time went by in those two or three pages nor do we know the distance that was traveled nor do we know how fast these characters can exactly move. So you saying it is unlikely is completely baseless. Just off the top of my head, Rayleigh traveled a seemingly pretty large distance in an extremely short period of time when he interrupted Kizaru's attack on Zoro.
> 
> How do you know that he would have to be going across the entire battlefield? You don't know where Shanks is in that picture.



I'm counting that ship when I say there are only two or three to the left of the light.  In every shot we get of the ships, we don't really see any more than are seen in that panel, but even if that were the case then Beckman would be even further than what would already be further than where I'm saying he is.  Also, I forgot to mention, but Kizaru seems to be standing in front of where the submarine is at the time as we not only see him looking down at it, but we see the ice from Aokiji's technique.  As for how far away Beckman is from the Red Hair Pirates:



The wall on the very left of the battlefield (in which they are standing significantly further in than where the ships are) is where the Red Hair Pirates are when they confront the Blackbeard Pirates and Marines.  The ship most to the right from our perspective, which is the one you're suggesting Beckman may be on or perhaps may even be further to the right, is on the opposite side of the battlefield- and that's not even including the part where he has to go North from our perspective into the battlefield.

There are several chapters between when Rayleigh appears.  That's dozens of times more pages than what Beckman has.

As for how much time passes between those scenes, there are only two or three pages and a few short conversations.  Beckman also shows no sign of having just sprinted a big distance.  He's standing calm smoking.

Also, none of your points address one of the most important points, which is the idea that Kizaru gives Luffy significantly more time to escape when he can just jump away from Beckman.



Akitō said:


> Wait, so you think that Beckman could've stopped Kizaru's attack by just shooting at him? Why didn't he do that in the manga then?



I'm arguing that Beckman isn't in that area while Kizaru is using that technique.  I'm saying even supposing that weren't the case, the circumstances would be different because Beckman wouldn't be directly engaging Kizaru like Rayleigh is.  I said Beckman would be holding Kizaru where he is, which doesn't have much to do with shooting him while he's in the air.



Akitō said:


> Beckman can jump into the air too then.



Beckman can't jump in the air and turn into light.


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## Akitō (Mar 17, 2015)

It's like you don't even put any thought into your arguments Gohara. I contest the fact that you know where the RHP are, and instead of explaining to me how you know where they are, all you do is show me that yes, you do indeed believe you know where they are. Congratulations. That was a big help. 

I tell you how the number of pages is not indicative of how much time passed, and yet you use the fact that only a few pages went by to support the stance that not enough time went by that Beckman could've crossed the battlefield without even addressing my argument. Are you seriously so blinded by your own delusion that you can't see how this isn't anywhere near a coherent argument? 

"A short amount of time passed in the few pages and the battlefield is a large distance, so Beckman is unlikely to have crossed it" isn't a flowing argument. That is a fact. 

Your response to my Rayleigh argument is just a blatant lie. 

And the way you responded to the first quote...what the hell? It's like you don't even acknowledge the fact that you just spent pages contesting a point that was completely wrong. Instead, you randomly bring up something new that I didn't even mention once.


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## Gohara (Mar 17, 2015)

-I'm afraid you spoke too soon.  You asked me how I know that they're far away from the ships most at the left.  We get a big zoom in on the Red Hair Pirates when they confront the Blackbeard Pirates and Marines, and we see them next to the wall I mention in my previous post.  Thus I thought it went without saying that's where they were, and assumed you were more so unsure of why I'm saying the ships on the left are far away from that wall.  Hence I explained why and even showed a page to go along with my explanation.  My apologies for the confusion at any rate.

-"How many pages there are serves as no evidence" is basically the same thing as just claiming I'm wrong without providing reasoning as to why.  Also, I mentioned the conversations as well, contrary to you saying I only mentioned the pages.

-What are you referring to?  If you mean how many chapters are between when Rayleigh appears, prior to that, the most recent time we see Rayleigh is around the middle of chapter 507.  He arrives at the very end of chapter 511.  That's 4 and a half chapters.  Several is at least 3.  4 and a half chapters roughly equals 76 pages.  76/2= 38.  76/3= 25.33.  So the difference is anywhere from 25-38 times.  Dozens means at least 24.

-You want to suggest that Kizaru wants to avoid Beckman because he will be too much trouble, but then he's perfectly okay with being next to Beckman later on.  If Kizaru is more powerful than Beckman to the point that he's perfectly okay with standing next to him warding him off shouldn't be much of a problem.  I don't see how that's random.  I've been consistently saying that going back towards Beckman doesn't make much sense.

Either way you claimed my argument is weak- but so far the only way I'm seeing an actual issue with my initial main point is if Kizaru is okay with giving Luffy significantly more time to escape, Beckman and Kizaru just so happen to be on specific ships that haven't been shown and are on the opposite side of the battlefield despite the look of the battlefield matching one much closer than that, Kizaru just so happens to jump in the exact ways you're suggesting despite wanting to avoid him at one point and then being okay with confronting him at another point, and Beckman is by far the fastest character we've seen.  We have to take multiple leaps just to provide a scenario in which my initial main point isn't likely.


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## trance (Mar 17, 2015)

Gohara be condescending as hell.


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## Gohara (Mar 17, 2015)

Why?  Being condescending wouldn't accomplish anything, and I may disagree with him, but I respect his views.


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## Akitō (Mar 18, 2015)

Gohara said:


> You want to suggest that Kizaru wants to avoid Beckman because he will be too much trouble, but then he's perfectly okay with being next to Beckman later on.  If Kizaru is more powerful than Beckman to the point that he's perfectly okay with standing next to him warding him off shouldn't be much of a problem.  I don't see how that's random.  I've been consistently saying that going back towards Beckman doesn't make much sense.



Kizaru traveling in Beckman's general direction isn't equivalent to him confronting Beckman, nor would it make Beckman any likelier to attack Kizaru. By that point I think it's pretty obvious that Kizaru knew that Beckman didn't really have any intentions of attacking him, especially after Kizaru literally just said that he'd be letting the Strawhats go. There would be no point for Beckman to do that.

Moreover, Kizaru was trying to get Yasakani no Magatama off. From his perspective, being closer to Beckman before the attack gets off will give Beckman a better chance of stopping the attack. After the attack already was used however, Kizaru had no real reason to be farther away from Beckman because he wasn't trying to do anything that could be directly stopped by Beckman. He is strong enough to ward off Beckman's attack, but not strong enough do ward him off while also using a massive AoE technique.


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## Gohara (Mar 18, 2015)

He wouldn't just be going back in Beckman's general direction, but would basically be in the area he's in.  At any rate, I'll just agree to disagree on that point because I think we've both said all we have to say on the subject.  Either way I enjoyed the discussion, you make some good points, and I respect your views.


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