# Amon (Korra) vs EL Strawhats



## Hullo (Sep 13, 2013)

Amon from Legend of Korra takes on the Strawhat crew from the Ennies Lobby arc. Who would win?

Distance: 200m
Location: Grassy field
SoM: Bloodlust
No CiS

Scenario 2: East blue Strawhats


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## Palpatine (Sep 13, 2013)

Amon gets utterly destroyed by them in both scenarios. 

Even in East Blue Luffy was holding his own against the likes of Arlong, who (I think it's safe to say) was a lot tougher than Amon. Bringing the whole crew in is overkill.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 13, 2013)

Is it a valid argument to assume that anyone stronger than Mako can break free from Amon's bloodbending?


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## Tacocat (Sep 13, 2013)

Sure. Not as if it really matters here.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 13, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Sure. Not as if it really matters here.



Yeah I know. This is for futures sake.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Sep 13, 2013)

He didn't break through his blood bending, he just managed to get off a lightning bolt.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 13, 2013)

Azrael Finalstar said:


> He didn't break through his blood bending, he just managed to get off a lightning bolt.



He was still able to resist it enough to do as much. So it stands to reason that people far stronger than him like the M3 for example can break free.


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## Azrael Finalstar (Sep 13, 2013)

Oh certainly. The avatar state breaking through it is an even better example.


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## willyvereb (Sep 13, 2013)

Blood-bending is just a more limited version of telekinesis anyways.
It works by force.
It cannot bind people who are physically superior to its feats.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Sep 13, 2013)

Resisting blood bending sounds painful, regardless Amon gets one shot by whoever hits him first.


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## Velocity (Sep 13, 2013)

Honestly, I don't get Bloodbending at all. Surely, if you can use Waterbending to control all the fluids in someone's body, you could simply reverse the flow of blood and kill them?


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## Tacocat (Sep 13, 2013)

True in practice, though I doubt Mike and Bryan would possess the same kind of heinous, albeit pragmatic, forethought.


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## Palpatine (Sep 14, 2013)

Velocity said:


> Honestly, I don't get Bloodbending at all. Surely, if you can use Waterbending to control all the fluids in someone's body, you could simply reverse the flow of blood and kill them?



If Avatar weren't family friendly, there are a lot of horrible things bloodbending could do. Stop someone's heart, give someone a stroke, freeze it. 

Hell, you could probably heat their body up and boil them alive.


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2013)

Bloodbending NLF


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## November (Sep 14, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Bloodbending* NFL*



You mean this right? 


*Spoiler*: __ 








On Topic: he gets stomped


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2013)

NLF* 

And Amon is a man


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 14, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> Bloodbending NFL



If this were real maybe then Football would actually be entertaining.


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## Ashi (Sep 14, 2013)

How the hell would anyone win?


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## SunRise (Sep 14, 2013)

With speed equal w/o CIS/PIS he should take anyone via Gauntlet style using bloodbending. Otherwise no.


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## willyvereb (Sep 14, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> With speed equal w/o CIS/PIS he should take anyone via Gauntlet style using bloodbending. Otherwise no.


I seriously doubt that.
He'd need to show feats of controlling somebody physically as strong as the Strawhats.
Like I said Bloodbending is little different from telekinesis.
It controls the blood inside people.
But superhuman characters generally have "superhuman blood".
These characters need positively ridiculous bloodstream to effectively do anything.
Pumping out enough energy and nutrients to operate a body that can deliver kiloton range punches at hypersonic+ speed is no laughable feat.

So yeah, Amon would fail to do anything here.


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## Lord Valgaav (Sep 14, 2013)

TensaXZangetsu said:


> How the hell would anyone win?



Who evers left standing on either side? Pretty much Pro Bending meets RL sports.


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## P-X 12 (Sep 14, 2013)

He's not bloodbending anyone near that level. And even if he could, he certainly wouldn't be bending through Gear Second.


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## Stermor (Sep 14, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> I seriously doubt that.
> He'd need to show feats of controlling somebody physically as strong as the Strawhats.
> Like I said Bloodbending is little different from telekinesis.
> It controls the blood inside people.
> ...



pure physical prowess shouldn't really do jack against a proper blood bending.. must be able to control the blood itself.. 

and the fun thing is he can control the flow.. so even if he can't stop the heart from pumping because the muscle is to strong.. he can easily redirect the flow.. just flow all blood into lungs or something similar.. heart without blood means no push and nothing you can do about it.. 

he really doesn't need feats of controlling somebody that powerful without cis/pis.. just stopping the blood in his brain should be much easier to then using blood bending to stop muscles. which is something he shouldn't be able to do to the strawhats.. 

anyway i really don't think "normal humanlike" albeit superhuman is enough to say their blood can just overcome blocking it from the brain?? 

anyway you need feats of controlling the flow of your blood without using muscles(heart) to say you can withstand bloodlusted bloodbeinding done right..


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## AgentAAA (Sep 14, 2013)

Stermor said:


> pure physical prowess shouldn't really do jack against a proper blood bending.. must be able to control the blood itself..
> 
> and the fun thing is he can control the flow.. so even if he can't stop the heart from pumping because the muscle is to strong.. he can easily redirect the flow.. just flow all blood into lungs or something similar.. heart without blood means no push and nothing you can do about it..
> 
> ...



Nope, because Avatar state's overpowered it before and so has Mako, who both just brute-forced it, so there's an obvious issue with that.
As it is, Bloodbending has never been used to block it from the brain, so there'd need to be proof they can do so before you could claim Amon to do it. That wasn't CIS/PIS when others resisted it, that was outright showing it's limitations.


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## willyvereb (Sep 14, 2013)

Stermor said:


> pure physical prowess shouldn't really do jack against a proper blood bending.. must be able to control the blood itself..
> 
> and the fun thing is he can control the flow.. so even if he can't stop the heart from pumping because the muscle is to strong.. he can easily redirect the flow.. just flow all blood into lungs or something similar.. heart without blood means no push and nothing you can do about it..
> 
> ...


Have you ever heard of No Limits Fallacy?
That's like claiming if a character can lift up a tiny piece of stone they can also bench-press with a mountain.
There's no need for the Strawhats to "control" their blood.
Because first Amon needs to take control of a blood flow as strong as theirs.
Its like tiring to divert the river's flow with a tiny piece of paper.
They can literally muscle their way out of Amon's control.

As for diverting the blood from the brain thing, it's still shaky.
Since the bloodstream shouldn't be any slower there.
And well, allowing superhuman characters to actually react and think at hypersonic speed does require astronomical needs.

Not to mention that this is pretty much a fanon idea.
Amon had never shown an ability like this.
And even if he could, Amon would first need to get through several trial and error attempts with his power before he'd realize this method.
Ignoring CIS/PIS doesn't mean characters act like omniscient robots who know which method suits them the best to win a battle.
Keep this in mind.


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## Fujita (Sep 14, 2013)

Stermor said:


> pure physical prowess shouldn't really do jack against a proper blood bending.. must be able to control the blood itself..
> 
> and the fun thing is he can control the flow.. so even if he can't stop the heart from pumping because the muscle is to strong.. he can easily redirect the flow.. just flow all blood into lungs or something similar.. heart without blood means no push and nothing you can do about it..
> 
> ...



Dirt fanfic part 2 

First off, there's what willy said.

Second off... bloodbending is fucking _hard_. Normal waterbenders can only do it during the full moon.  

It's actually fairly possible that blood being inside somebody else's body simply doesn't _allow_ for the same level of control that a waterbender has over liquid.


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## willyvereb (Sep 14, 2013)

Well, Amon could somehow block the Bending powers of somebody via his Bloodbending.
But he only ever shown this by touching a pressure point or something.
We don't even know how good Amon's understanding of _actual anatomy_, not the folklorized "chakra this, pressure point that" kind.


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## Mane (Sep 14, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> Nope, because Avatar state's overpowered it before and so has Mako, who both just brute-forced it, so there's an obvious issue with that.



The Avatar state didn't use brute force; it was shown during the Katara vs Hama fight that blood-bending can be overpowered by a superior water-bender. Once Aang activated the Avatar state he became a superior water-bender to Yakone and was thus able to overpower his blood-bending.

Your other example seemed to be more of a case of Amon neglecting to impose total control than anything. It's not the first time that the victim has made small voluntary movements. The only difference here is that Mako was capable of generating lightning with his minor movement, but it certainly didn't appear as though Amon was struggling to keep him under control.



> As it is, Bloodbending has never been used to block it from the brain, so there'd need to be proof they can do so before you could claim Amon to do it. That wasn't CIS/PIS when others resisted it, that was outright showing it's limitations.



Well Yakone apparently used blood-bending to knock everyone in a courtroom unconscious, most likely by restricting blood flow to the brain or something similar.


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## Tacocat (Sep 14, 2013)

Mane said:


> The Avatar state didn't use brute force; it was shown during the Katara vs Hama fight that blood-bending can be overpowered by a superior water-bender. Once Aang activated the Avatar state he became a superior water-bender to Yakone and was thus able to overpower his blood-bending.
> 
> Your other example seemed to be more of a case of Amon neglecting to impose total control than anything. It's not the first time that the victim has made small voluntary movements. The only difference here is that Mako was capable of generating lightning with his minor movement, but it certainly didn't appear as though Amon was struggling to keep him under control.


Semantics. Actually, it's also conjecture. Anyway, resistances don't need to be shown to overpower bloodbending. It's the very nature of the technique that shoots it in the foot, as willy's described.


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## Fujita (Sep 14, 2013)

Mane said:


> Well Yakone apparently used blood-bending to knock everyone in a courtroom unconscious, most likely by restricting blood flow to the brain or something similar.



Ah yeah, had forgotten about this.

So I guess I need a bit of a better argument as a refutation, eh? 



Stermor said:


> and the fun thing is he can control the flow.. so even if he can't stop the heart from pumping because the muscle is to strong.. he can easily redirect the flow.. just flow all blood into lungs or something similar.. heart without blood means no push and nothing you can do about it..



So, essentially, he can rip the blood out of its vessels? 

That's certainly something he's never done. And that would actually fall under what I put earlier. 

Not to mention superhumans will have superhumanly tough blood vessels or they'd hemorrhage every time they got hit.  



> he really doesn't need feats of controlling somebody that powerful without cis/pis.. just stopping the blood in his brain should be much easier to then using blood bending to stop muscles. which is something he shouldn't be able to do to the strawhats..



What willy said in regards to this. Their hearts are still too strong.

... 

And come to think of it, Enies Lobby Luffy actually has a technique where he pumps his blood at superspeed around his body  

So yes, bending his blood is going to be _very_ effective and devastating... 



> anyway you need feats of controlling the flow of your blood without using muscles(heart) to say you can withstand bloodlusted bloodbeinding done right..



Why exactly?

The heart controls the blood flow.

If it's a lot better at doing that than any bloodbender is, then bloodbending is useless.


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## AgentAAA (Sep 14, 2013)

Mane said:


> The Avatar state didn't use brute force; it was shown during the Katara vs Hama fight that blood-bending can be overpowered by a superior water-bender. Once Aang activated the Avatar state he became a superior water-bender to Yakone and was thus able to overpower his blood-bending.
> 
> Your other example seemed to be more of a case of Amon neglecting to impose total control than anything. It's not the first time that the victim has made small voluntary movements. The only difference here is that Mako was capable of generating lightning with his minor movement, but it certainly didn't appear as though Amon was struggling to keep him under control.
> 
> ...



Except it's still not total control and shows he can't fully control the opponent. As for Katara Vs. Hama, it seemed more that, since for non-psychic bloodbenders it seems to require actual movement, Katara was stopping Hama by stopping her movements. If Amon wasn't struggling to keep him in control, then he would have had total control - he knew exactly what risk letting someone who can use fire and lightning make a minor movement can do. sorry, but if it's not shown as total control on someone so weak, how's it going to bother someone much stronger? Especially since Luffy manipulates his own blood for second gear in the first place, and is allowed to do so since his rubber body negates most of the issue it'd otherwise give him - in other words, Amon's going against someone who can already manipulate his own blood flow AND isn't going to be affected in the same way a normal person would.


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## Fujita (Sep 14, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> As for Katara Vs. Hama, it seemed more that, since for non-psychic bloodbenders it seems to require actual movement, Katara was stopping Hama by stopping her movements.



No, Katara just No Sells it through being a stronger waterbender 

[youtube]YsZ267DRdq4[/youtube]

0:55

She hadn't even learned bloodbending at that point, only attempting the technique to stop Hama from controlling Aang and Sokka, who couldn't escape it the way she did.


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## Mane (Sep 14, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Semantics.



Which part?



> Actually, it's also conjecture.



Which part?



> Anyway, resistances don't need to be shown to overpower bloodbending. It's the very nature of the technique that shoots it in the foot, as willy's described.



Explain.



AgentAAA said:


> Except it's still not total control and shows he can't fully control the opponent. As for Katara Vs. Hama, it seemed more that, since for non-psychic bloodbenders it seems to require actual movement, Katara was stopping Hama by stopping her movements. If Amon wasn't struggling to keep him in control, then he would have had total control - he knew exactly what risk letting someone who can use fire and lightning make a minor movement can do. sorry, but if it's not shown as total control on someone so weak, how's it going to bother someone much stronger? Especially since Luffy manipulates his own blood for second gear in the first place, and is allowed to do so since his rubber body negates most of the issue it'd otherwise give him - in other words, Amon's going against someone who can already manipulate his own blood flow AND isn't going to be affected in the same way a normal person would.



Mako's small movement was nothing new. We've previously seen people under blood-bending's control make some minor voluntary movements but it was never suggested that this was a sign of them 'overcoming' the technique. For example, we saw Katara perform small voluntary actions (such as raising her head, etc) while she was still under Hama's control, but Hama didn't appear alarmed. In fact, she laughed in Katara's face.

Similarly, Amon didn't appear alarmed by Mako's small movement. He only appeared to be surprised by the lightning, since it cannot usually be fired from such a minor manoeuvre. Mako wasn't 'overcoming' the technique; he just used that same slight movement we've seen people use before to launch a surprise attack. If anything, it was a case of Mako being under-estimated rather than overcoming the technique.

In the Katara vs Hama fight, it was literally a case of blood-bending being ineffective against a super water-bender. Katara didn't use blood-bending at any point until the end. 

Honestly, I'm not saying Amon would win. I don't know enough about One Piece to make a judgement on that. I just don't think that blood-bending can be overcome with simple brute force. If Luffy can manipulate his own blood flow then I agree, blood-bending most likely wouldn't affect him in the same way.


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## Tacocat (Sep 14, 2013)

Mane said:


> Which part?


All of it.



> Which part?


Most of it.



> Explain.


While the application of bloodbending is haxxy indeed, the technique itself isn't hax per se. It's simple manipulation of the bloodstream. Consider a garden hose--you can easily divert water flow by thumbing the entrance. Now consider a high pressure water hose, the kind that can cut through steel--fucker would take a thumb right off.

Now, One Piece characters like Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji have the physical fortitude to exert several hundreds of tons of energy with punches and kicks. Basically, they'd die pretty quickly if their vascular systems weren't proverbial high-pressure water hoses. Indeed, they're gonna have hearts like freaking super-pistons.

Basically, it's NLF to say that Amon could control blood flows that powerful.

And, as I've said, it's all semantic because Amon gets blitzed to hell before his head is punched off.


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## Stermor (Sep 14, 2013)

AgentAAA said:


> Nope, because Avatar state's overpowered it before and so has Mako, who both just brute-forced it, so there's an obvious issue with that.
> As it is, Bloodbending has never been used to block it from the brain, so there'd need to be proof they can do so before you could claim Amon to do it. That wasn't CIS/PIS when others resisted it, that was outright showing it's limitations.



no that is different.. i'm not talking about freezing people by stopping there muscles.. i'm talking about redirecting their blood to different parts.. something the old lady who thaught blood bending could do very easily.. 

which is different.. you can't just overpower then with pure strnetgh..


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## Stermor (Sep 14, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Have you ever heard of No Limits Fallacy?
> 
> 
> That's like claiming if a character can lift up a tiny piece of stone they can also bench-press with a mountain.



no.... if you think that you should read it again.. i'm not talking about overpowering.. i'm talking about redirecting blood.. something that has been done before (forcing blood to flow in another direction) just now instead of going against the blood flow just move it somewhere else.. 



willyvereb said:


> There's no need for the Strawhats to "control" their blood. yes there is..


 strawhats are still human beeings.. they still operate on the assumption that their heart is what is pumping their blood.. if you redirect the blood into the lungs or spleen or somewhere.. eventually(pretty fast) the heart will have nearly no blood left to pump arround.. which is something the strawhats can't do jack about.. they can't just will their blood to pump.. it is still their heart who pumps the blood.. 



willyvereb said:


> Because first Amon needs to take control of a blood flow as strong as theirs.


who needs to control a river if you can redirect it??? there is nothing stopping you.. 



willyvereb said:


> Its like tiring to divert the river's flow with a tiny piece of paper.
> They can literally muscle their way out of Amon's control. how?? without their blood to pump anything how can they muscle themself out of it??
> 
> As for diverting the blood from the brain thing, it's still shaky.
> ...



well the old blood bending lady could reverse the flood of blood.. i see no reason that amon can't divert it.. and really you need basic understanding of a human body to know the heart pumps blood.. and without the heart getting blood its not going to be pumping anything.. 

people, should remember you don't go up against something much stronger directly.. you divert it to something you can manage.. which is entirely possible here... remember stopping a river with a shovel is impossible.. but make a million small canels.. you can stop each one of them if put your shovel infront of them..

basically you need feats of controlling you blood while in motion. (without the heart beeing involved).. since with the heart providing the only force for your blood.. unless you go directly against that, there is no reason to think you can apply some sideway presure to divert it to another vein..


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## Fujita (Sep 14, 2013)

You can't decide to shove blood through one vein as opposed to another, but by pumping the heart forces blood through both. With strength that makes Amon's bloodbending look inconsequential. 

Also, the Strawhats can't will their blood to pump?

Did you miss the fucking example, that's been posted by two people in the thread, where Luffy does exactly that? 

It's the _basis for one of his techniques_


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## Fujita (Sep 14, 2013)

You know what, here



Oh and also



> remember stopping a river with a shovel is impossible.. but make a million small canels.. you can stop each one of them if put your shovel infront of them..



This is true enough

But here's the thing

If a guy's got a shovel, he could stop any one of those little canals. But you're essentially claiming he can stop all of them simultaneously. 

With his one shovel.


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## Stermor (Sep 15, 2013)

Fujita said:


> You can't decide to shove blood through one vein as opposed to another, but by pumping the heart forces blood through both. With strength that makes Amon's bloodbending look inconsequential.
> 
> Also, the Strawhats can't will their blood to pump?
> 
> ...



uhm you can send alot more blood into various extremities then what normally  flows there .. which is the idee.. just cause death by extremly low blood pressure.. if the heart has no blood to pump.. it can't produce force to flow more blood.. 

also i was kinda talking about this in general.. luffy is a special case already.. but i just don't agree with people thinking you can just brute force bloodbending becaus you are physically stronger.. 

since blood bending done right you don't have to go up against the blood just redirect it.. which means unless you can actually force your blood without using your heart.. it should work.. 



Fujita said:


> This is true enough
> 
> But here's the thing
> 
> ...



yep 

the thing is though amon doesn't have shovel he has blood bending which can do more then "1 thing" at a time 



SuperTacocat said:


> Whelp       .



hahaha sigh......


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## willyvereb (Sep 15, 2013)




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## Velocity (Sep 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> but i just don't agree with people thinking you can just brute force bloodbending becaus you are physically stronger.



Yet we can't ignore that people have resisted it. Mako could and he isn't even a Waterbender and Korra did _after_ Amon took away her Waterbending. So if physical strength allows you to overcome Bloodbending, which certainly seems to be the case, then characters with significantly superhuman strength shouldn't be affected by Bloodbending restricting their movements at all.

Then again, if Amon is using Bloodbending to do that rather than stop their hearts or reverse the flow of blood in their bodies, he's doing it wrong.


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## Fujita (Sep 15, 2013)

Stermor said:


> uhm you can send alot more blood into various extremities then what normally  flows there .. which is the idee.. just cause death by extremly low blood pressure.. if the heart has no blood to pump.. it can't produce force to flow more blood..



All right, so let's say we have a fork in the bloodstream, with two pipes, Pipe 1 and Pipe 2. Your version of Amon accelerates some blood into Pipe 1, hoping to suck more of the bloodstream there and essentially leave so little in the rest of the stream that the heart can't provide enough pumping force.

But in order to do so, he needs to both concentrate blood there and _hold it there_ or it's going to be no good. And he can't go against the flow of the person's heart (too strong) in order to do so, so if he wants the blood that's already circulated past that point to go there, he has to send it through the heart. Which'll then pump it so that he can't hold in place the blood he's tried to concentrate before. 

Not to mention that there's probably a limit to how much he can try and flood anything with blood before the elasticity of the vessels, which is again stronger than his bending, just sort of forces it along out of sheer irritation. 



> also i was kinda talking about this in general.. luffy is a special case already.. but i just don't agree with people thinking you can just brute force bloodbending becaus you are physically stronger..



All right.



> since blood bending done right you don't have to go up against the blood just redirect it.. which means unless you can actually force your blood without using your heart.. it should work..



See above



> yep
> 
> the thing is though amon doesn't have shovel he has blood bending which can do more then "1 thing" at a time



You missed my point.

Let's say I have a 10 ton rock. I can't hope to lift it, but it would be perfectly reasonable to say that if I can break it into a bunch of smaller rocks, I can lift them individually. But that doesn't mean I can lift them all at once, just because I turned them into pebbles. Which is effectively what you're claiming. 




Beautiful


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## Ashi (Sep 15, 2013)

Bullcrap here in bid we go strictly by what is shown any other properties added is considered fanfic


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## Chainwave (Sep 16, 2013)

strong bloodflow? That sounds fanfiction-y to me. So if a strawhat nosebleeds, does the blood gush out at the speed of sound, cutting anything in it's way?


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## Tacocat (Sep 16, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> strong bloodflow? That sounds fanfiction-y to me. So if a strawhat nosebleeds, does the blood gush out at the speed of sound, cutting anything in it's way?


Does Superman decimate the Earth with his sonic booms every time he flies in the atmosphere? No. Does that mean he doesn't fly at massively hypersonic, sub-relativistic, relativistic, and FTL speeds? 'Course not.

Does the Straw Hats' flagrant physical superiority to anyone Amon has ever bloodbended indicate possible, and even probable NLF? Certainly.

And again, none of this matters because Amon gets his head vaporized by a single attack from any of the M3.


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## SunRise (Sep 16, 2013)

First, doll's minor movements which didn't changed anything is not resistance feat at all - nobody except Avatar state (greater waterbender) could resist his bloodbending . Then, stop using Mako as example - he didn't physically broke off bloodbending - he only was succesfull at distraction Amon without actual movement - he just used finger which was pointed at him for lightning - that's all. If somone from SHs can attack with just pointed at target finger then they can do it. 

Second, as I understood you trying to say that physically stronger characters should have stronger hearts right? But then if you can lift 100 tonn it doesn't necessary means that you will strike with same or comparable force, if you can toss trillion tonn it doesn't mean you can jump 10 km high. If your blood loss stopped despite wound is still opened. It's not because strong heart. If your heart can survive 1 000 000 volts it's not because strong heart either. 

And then there is tonns of characters who can make giant craters in rock with punches. Punches = KE. KE = Mass and Speed So if we not cosider them moving at massive speeds, so they should have giant mass - ability to increase it. It's reasonable just like yours argumanet but simultaneously it's same thing - it's* lolfiction*. You can't justify lolfiction with imagine powers imo. 

You need *feats* of controlling your blood flow or weaker characters actual resistance - not doll's minor movements.

Third, saying that he can control bloodflow is NLF is wrong. Because A. He actually did similar feat. B. That is how it works - controls fluids.  First time I seen bloodbending - I already thought about it like power which can just ripoff all water inside someone making him one big bloody mess. Or at least rip off all blood - after all it's just fluids which bender can control. Of course it wasn't shown since show is "for kids". But it should be considered possible imo. Still he can't just rip off blood from SHs and likes because their veins and stuff are durable as fuck. Multy-block insides or something like that 

Btw *peak blood speed* is 0.3 m/s or something like that - average river speed is faster or comparable. Pretty sure waterbenders can bend rivers.  For bender shouldn't be difference - human or river. I think it's for dramatism dolls afforded minor movements.  Also seems lifting people is much easier than making them move.

I don't think he can take out whole SHs - there is even no speed equal for that. But I still think he has good chanses (except Luffy) in 1v1 with speed equal.

Btw can I scale Amon to previous series speed feats since Korra lack it?  Can I scale  Durablity to previous cast's durablity?


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## Tacocat (Sep 16, 2013)

That's not the point. The point is that bloodbending is a hax that is anatomically based. Therefore, it'd be fallacious to assume that Amon could bloodbend those who are so anatomically superior to anyone he's ever exerted dominance over, for multiple viable reasons.

And Amon most certainly does not beat every SH sans Luffy 1v1. The M3, Franky, Brook, Robin, and most likely Chopper decimate him. Even Usopp should have sufficient reactions to blow a hole through his head with a Lead Star.


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## SunRise (Sep 16, 2013)

So we consider "anatomical superiority" which is fan/lolfiction (just like mass/speed) legit here?



> The point is that bloodbending is a hax that is anatomically based.


It based on *controlling fluids* - not on anatomy.


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## Tacocat (Sep 16, 2013)

Make grammatical sense of that sentence and I'll reply to it.


> It based on controlling fluids which extreme fast movement/extreme pressure for stronger characters is basically NLF.


There are other reasons. Think of it like a current. A 5 year old kid might be swept out to sea because of a powerful riptide, but do you think someone like, say, Zoro would really be overpowered? Of course not; he'd swim right through it because he has the physical capacity to. It is NLF to say that Amon would have enough influence over one's bloodstream to arrest bodily control from him if he is physically superior.


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## Island (Sep 16, 2013)

It doesn't matter what we _think_ bloodbending can do. It's about what bloodbending actually _did_. If there's proof that suggests that Amon can do X, Y, and Z with bloodbending, then sure. If not, then lifting people, throwing them around, and knocking them unconscious is about the extent of his bloodbending. We can't assume that he can do all these crazy things with blood flow simply because it makes sense; if he wasn't shown to do it, or he wasn't implied to be able to do it, then he simply can't do it.

There's a lack of evidence that he can, and if there's no evidence, then there's no reason to believe that it can happen.

We saw Katara and Hama bend water out of plants; however, they or any other bloodbender, were never shown to bend water out of people's bodies. You can therefore assume that they can't do so due to lack of evidence.

Bloodbending is more or less telekinesis that is restricted to people and has a handful of other tricks like being able to knock somebody out.


----------



## SunRise (Sep 16, 2013)

> Make grammatical sense of that sentence and I'll reply to it.


It's not a mess. 

Sure You understood it clearly. 

But I can rephrase it of course. 

Anatomy allowing superfast blood flow and stuff should be lolfiction just like mass/speed of a character who made giant crater with punch.

Bloodbending based on controlling fluids - not on anatomy. 

*Island*
There is a difference between saying unreasonable nonsense about character's powers and saying what they are *suppose to do*. But OBD is OBD. So


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 16, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> Does Superman decimate the Earth with his sonic booms every time he flies in the atmosphere? No. Does that mean he doesn't fly at massively hypersonic, sub-relativistic, relativistic, and FTL speeds? 'Course not.
> 
> Does the Straw Hats' flagrant physical superiority to anyone Amon has ever bloodbended indicate possible, and even probable NLF? Certainly.
> 
> And again, none of this matters because Amon gets his head vaporized by a single attack from any of the M3.





It's pretty obvious that an Avatar character would lose here, but..

There is no NLF , bloodbending will have an effect on OP chars, regardless of their extreme strength. In fact, if bloodbending could freeze blood, or boil blood, I'd argue that with equalized speed, Amon would win vs some of the Strawhats. 

Blood is just a liquid, it has no strength of it's own behind it, a fictional muscle can be trained to crush rocks, skin tissue can be hardened to the durability of metal, but blood has never changed property. What, does it become more viscous, more runny, more solid-y? These properties were never suggested, it's fanfiction. In fact, every time you see a character bleed, his/her blood behaves like regular blood. The best assumption you can make about a OP char's blood, is that it can carry more oxygen.
Actually if the blood supposedly travels at amazing speeds, do Strawhats breathe at mach40 or whatever it was? Do they breathe in and out 10000 times per minute? The answer is no, and thus there is no need for their blood to travel at extreme speeds either.


----------



## Island (Sep 16, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> There is a difference between saying unreasonable nonsense about character's powers and saying what they are *suppose to do*.


How do you know what a character's power is supposed to do, and why would there be a discrepancy between what the power was supposed to do and what it actually did?


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## SunRise (Sep 16, 2013)

*Island*
Because bloodbending controls water inside you and water is 80% of you?


----------



## Island (Sep 16, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> Because bloodbending controls water inside you and water is 80% of you?


So?

If Amon and other bloodbenders _didn't_ do something, then you assume that they couldn't. There are a number of reasons as to why they couldn't (e.g. it simply being more difficult to manipulate such an impure water source), but those particular reasons don't really matter. If Amon and the others didn't do it, then you simply assume that they couldn't due to lack of evidence of them being able to.

In other words, we need proof that they can do something before it's accepted that they can. Because they didn't, we can assume that there is some kind of limitation that prevents them from doing so. What that limitation is isn't really important; it could be their physical abilities, whatever. If they didn't do it, and there's no actual evidence to suggest that they could (e.g. calcs or scaling) then, again, we assume that they couldn't.

All Amon has been shown to do is glorified telekinesis with a handful of other powers like taking away bending and knocking people unconscious. It makes sense that he _should_ be able to do some other cool tricks, but since he didn't, we assume that he couldn't.

Also, the human body is 70% water (or less) unless you're a newborn baby.


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## Tacocat (Sep 16, 2013)

VioletHood said:


> It's not a mess.
> 
> Sure You understood it clearly.
> 
> ...


Blood is part of the anatomy.

Wut even 

In any case, the argument is less superficial than that. Read my above edit.



Chainwave said:


> It's pretty obvious that an Avatar character would lose here, but..
> 
> There is no NLF , bloodbending will have an effect on OP chars, regardless of their extreme strength. In fact, if bloodbending could freeze blood, or boil blood, I'd argue that with equalized speed, Amon would win vs some of the Strawhats.


First, there is NLF because it is inherently fallacious to assume that Amon can bloodbend superior entities when physical resistance has already been shown by characters inferior. Second, the case is that bloodbending affects part of the anatomy, and the Straw Hats are anatomically superior in every way. Amon controls his victims by altering the flow of their blood to force their anatomy in controlled directions. There is no evidence saying that he has enough control to manipulate blood so forcefully that he can coerce physically monstrous characters to do his bidding.

Third, I think you're misunderstanding the application of thermals. Take Aokiji or Akainu, for instance. If OP characters' blood didn't have supernatural properties, Aokiji's ice and Akainu's magma, which yield gigatons of energy, would instantly freeze/vaporize the bodily fluids of anyone they attack. This is not the case.



> Blood is just a liquid, it has no strength of it's own behind it, a fictional muscle can be trained to crush rocks, skin tissue can be hardened to the durability of metal, but blood has never changed property. What, does it become more viscous, more runny, more solid-y? These properties were never suggested, it's fanfiction. In fact, every time you see a character bleed, his/her blood behaves like regular blood. The best assumption you can make about a OP char's blood, is that it can carry more oxygen.


That's not the point being made. Plus, you're misunderstanding durability; their skin isn't the only thing enhanced. Literally every part of them has to be supernatural, or their insides would vaporize with every punch due to transfer of kinetic energy.



> Actually if the blood supposedly travels at amazing speeds, do Strawhats breathe at mach40 or whatever it was? Do they breathe in and out 10000 times per minute? The answer is no, and thus there is no need for their blood to travel at extreme speeds either.


You have no proof of that.

Listen, the point of NLF is that I simply have to make a viable case against it and it's completely debunked while you have to refute anything I have completely. Conjecture won't cut it.


----------



## SunRise (Sep 16, 2013)

> physical resistance has already been shown by characters inferior.


No it wasn't. Minor doll's movement which affected nothing is not a feat of resisting.

Blood's durablity is not a case. You ignored his whole point.  He actually proven that blood in their veins in not superfast and not at superpressure - *it is the point*. 



> You have no proof of that.


Same thing - you also have no proofs that blood travels at superspeed under super pressure. 



> Blood is part of the anatomy.


And it cancels fact that it's liquid? It's not one piece of something - blood is blood, skin is skin and etc.


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 16, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> First, there is NLF because it is inherently fallacious to assume that Amon can bloodbend superior entities when physical resistance has already been shown by characters inferior. Second, the case is that bloodbending affects part of the anatomy, and the Straw Hats are anatomically superior in every way. Amon controls his victims by altering the flow of their blood to force their anatomy in controlled directions. There is no evidence saying that he has enough control to manipulate blood so forcefully that he can coerce physically monstrous characters to do his bidding.



Allright.. first of all, bloodbending does not merely affect blood vessels. 
Hama: "I control *every muscle*, every vein in your body." 
This is obvious, as blood alone cannot force a body to move in any direction. That said, your definition of "anatomical superiority" is pretty sketchy. There is no property in a simple liquid such as blood plasma that makes it immune to bloodbending, and no amount of "anatomical superiority", is going to magically create one. If a bloodbender were for example to lift  say.. Sanji into the air, and suspend him there, no amount of physical force would allow him to save himself. Of course this is where shockwave kicks and geppo or whatever comes into play, but that has nothing to do with physical strength.



SuperTacocat said:


> Third, I think you're misunderstanding the application of thermals. Take Aokiji or Akainu, for instance. If OP characters' blood didn't have supernatural properties, Aokiji's ice and Akainu's magma, which yield gigatons of energy, would instantly freeze/vaporize the bodily fluids of anyone they attack. This is not the case.



Neither Aokiji, not Akainu have gone all-out with their attacks on Strawhats. Luffy was sweating in Impel Down's level3 hell, the temperature of which is enough to cook a bird, but is not comparable to the heat you described. 

Anyway, what magical property does a regular liquid gain, while it is a part of an OP character's anatomy then? What causes it to regulate it's own temperature? There is no answer, and there is no reason to fanfic one. Whatever resistance a character has to heat, or anything else, it can only come from some sort of system that regular humans have that regulates body temperature, albeit in superpowered forms. This is proven by the characters sweating, shivering, and demonstrating other common reactions to extreme temperatures. Body temperature is regulated by monitoring the outer climate and reacting to it. If a waterbender were to reach out and evaporate the water inside a human body, the body would not be able to resist.

And honestly, Avatar is a show for kids, and this makes the bloodbenders awfully compassionate to other human beings, but you have to admit that it's a silly idea that some part of a "human being" makes it so that blood and other liquids can't be ripped out or frozen or evaporated, when waterbenders can drain a tree(the moisture of which is protected by cell walls) to the point of it crumbling into nothingness, with a wave of a hand. 



SuperTacocat said:


> That's not the point being made. Plus, you're misunderstanding durability; their skin isn't the only thing enhanced. Literally every part of them has to be supernatural, or their insides would vaporize with every punch due to transfer of kinetic energy.
> 
> Besides, I could make the same case; they have superhuman muscles, and the heart is the single most efficient muscle in the body. It's quite obviously going to be pumping more quickly than the human heart, so they quite obviously have quicker bloodstreams, else it'd be lolfiction.



Having an extremely quick bloodstream would do what exactly? You would need to breathe at equally fast intervals in order to take full advantage of a faster bloodstream, thus leading you to use up massive amounts of oxygen. Remember Luffy being in a small air bubble in that underwater arc? Yeah, that thing would've been used up in microseconds.


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> All of it.



That makes absolutely no sense.



> Most of it.



This is just plain false.



> While the application of bloodbending is haxxy indeed, the technique itself isn't hax per se. It's simple manipulation of the bloodstream.



Although it's called blood-bending, it involves the manipulation of all fluids inside an opponent's body.



> Consider a garden hose--you can easily divert water flow by thumbing the entrance. Now consider a high pressure water hose, the kind that can cut through steel--fucker would take a thumb right off.
> 
> Now, One Piece characters like Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji have the physical fortitude to exert several hundreds of tons of energy with punches and kicks. *Basically, they'd die pretty quickly if their vascular systems weren't proverbial high-pressure water hoses. Indeed, they're gonna have hearts like freaking super-pistons.*



Now _this_ is conjecture. Yes, muscles working harder are supplied with blood at a faster rate, but there's no proof that it translates to what you've written here. Besides, this all rests on the assumption that water cannot be manipulated when it's pressure is high, but we have actually seen high pressure water being manipulated on the show (ironically, it was actually used to cut through steel).



> Basically, it's NLF to say that Amon could control blood flows that powerful.



Maybe he can, maybe he can't. Although you have yet to convince me otherwise, I wasn't arguing that Amon could blood-bend the Strawhats since I don't know enough about them to make that judgement. I was simply making the point that blood-bending cannot be overcome by brute force alone, and your post hasn't disputed this at all.



> And, as I've said, it's all semantic because Amon gets blitzed to hell before his head is punched off.



What? That's not semantics. Besides, I've never claimed otherwise.


----------



## Tacocat (Sep 16, 2013)

I feel like you're both being intentionally dense. The point is not just in the bloodstream, it's also the nature of the technique. Bloodbending imposes the user's will on another's body in the _physical sense_. That's why resistance doesn't even need to be shown (and it has been, no matter how small the movements) for it to be considered NLF.

Really, I'm 99% certain that neither of you would claim that Amon could bloodbend bricks like Superman.



> Neither Aokiji, not Akainu have gone all-out with their attacks on Strawhats. Luffy was sweating in Impel Down's level3 hell, the temperature of which is enough to cook a bird, but is not comparable to the heat you described.


What? They don't need to go all out. Aokiji's casual attack can instantly freeze the ocean to the horizon on a Jupiter-sized planet. Plus, this applies for any character to ever be hit by the duo's moves.

Hell, like I said, that shit would be literally vaporized by any transfer of such ridiculous KE.




> And honestly, Avatar is a show for kids, and this makes the bloodbenders awfully compassionate to other human beings, but you have to admit that it's a silly idea that some part of a "human being" makes it so that blood and other liquids can't be ripped out or frozen or evaporated, when waterbenders can drain a tree(the moisture of which is protected by cell walls) to the point of it crumbling into nothingness, with a wave of a hand.


Silliness is irrelevant. No one has shown to be able to do so.



Mane said:


> Maybe he can, maybe he can't. Although you have yet to convince me otherwise, I wasn't arguing that Amon could blood-bend the Strawhats since I don't know enough about them to make that judgement. I was simply making the point that blood-bending cannot be overcome by brute force alone, and your post hasn't disputed this at all.


I don't have you convince you of anything. Burden of proof is on you. You have to prove that it can't be overcome by brute force because it imposes physical influence.


----------



## Stermor (Sep 16, 2013)

Velocity said:


> Yet we can't ignore that people have resisted it. Mako could and he isn't even a Waterbender and Korra did _after_ Amon took away her Waterbending. So if physical strength allows you to overcome Bloodbending, which certainly seems to be the case, then characters with significantly superhuman strength shouldn't be affected by Bloodbending restricting their movements at all.
> 
> Then again, if Amon is using Bloodbending to do that rather than stop their hearts or reverse the flow of blood in their bodies, he's doing it wrong.



again if you use blood bending to stop movement.. and the opponent is strong enough.. it won't matter.. therefor smart bloodbending doesn't do that.. 

and yes bloodbending won't resitrct there movement.. it can still kill you by just divert any blood from flowing to your brain or heart.. .


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## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> and yes bloodbending won't resitrct there movement.. it can still kill you by just divert any blood from flowing to your brain or heart.. .


Yakone is the only who did something like that
And what he did was knocking not killing
Baseless speculation is fanfiction
You should stop with that


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## Stermor (Sep 16, 2013)

Fujita said:


> All right, so let's say we have a fork in the bloodstream, with two pipes, Pipe 1 and Pipe 2. Your version of Amon accelerates some blood into Pipe 1, hoping to suck more of the bloodstream there and essentially leave so little in the rest of the stream that the heart can't provide enough pumping force.
> 
> But in order to do so, he needs to both concentrate blood there and _hold it there_ or it's going to be no good. And he can't go against the flow of the person's heart (too strong) in order to do so, so if he wants the blood that's already circulated past that point to go there, he has to send it through the heart. Which'll then pump it so that he can't hold in place the blood he's tried to concentrate before.



yep this is pretty much the idee.. only lets look at it like this. every pump normally blood flows amon just divert the blood from the brain to the legs.. which can be done since he is just diverting and not countering the push.. then it comes back up again.. he is diverts it back the heart.. bypassing brain again.. just repeat that cycle for a while and well you get death.. 



Fujita said:


> Not to mention that there's probably a limit to how much he can try and flood anything with blood before the elasticity of the vessels, which is again stronger than his bending, just sort of forces it along out of sheer irritation.



this should be the case. your blood system can handle alot of more then what normally flows... 




Fujita said:


> You missed my point.
> 
> Let's say I have a 10 ton rock. I can't hope to lift it, but it would be perfectly reasonable to say that if I can break it into a bunch of smaller rocks, I can lift them individually. But that doesn't mean I can lift them all at once, just because I turned them into pebbles. Which is effectively what you're claiming.



in this case it is exactly what he can do.. he can't stop the totally in one piece force.. but he can stop alot of smaller forces at the same time  but it is pretty much no longer relevant.. 




Fujita said:


> Beautiful





Louis Cyphre said:


> Yakone is the only who did something like that
> And what he did was knocking not killing
> Baseless speculation is fanfiction
> You should stop with that



oke you pretty much said somebody did that and now your saying it is speculation........... 

and just because avater pis/cis/nickelodeon doesn't allow deaths on the show doesn't mean they can't use their powers like that..


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## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> oke you pretty much said somebody did that and now your saying it is speculation...........


I was trying to say to you that* only* Yakone did something similar
Yakone >>>>>> Amon
When did Amon used his bloodbending to knockout people?

*Spoiler*: __ 



Never


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## AgentAAA (Sep 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> yep this is pretty much the idee.. only lets look at it like this. every pump normally blood flows amon just divert the blood from the brain to the legs.. which can be done since he is just diverting and not countering the push.. then it comes back up again.. he is diverts it back the heart.. bypassing brain again.. just repeat that cycle for a while and well you get death..
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Doesn't mean they can, either. It's not PiS/CiS, he can't do it because that's not how bloodbending gets used. it's an assumption the original source doesn't support. By this logic, we could say that since it's just energy, Kamehameha should totally be usable to power machines, or revive people like a defibrillator(Looking at you DB evolution). However, it's not used like that, so we don't assume that.


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## Fatal Warrior (Sep 16, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> I was trying to say to you that* only* Yakone did something similar
> Yakone >>>>>> Amon
> When did Amon used his bloodbending to knockout people?
> 
> ...



Didn't Amon kill his father by overpowering his blood bending?


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## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

Fatal Warrior said:


> Didn't Amon kill his father by overpowering his blood bending?


He did?
Pretty sure this happened after Yakone bending ability has taken away by Aang


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## Saitomaru (Sep 16, 2013)

I had a nice long reply typed up but then I thought to myself 'why am I going to all this trouble?' So I shortened it to:

You guys don't really know how the circulatory system works, do you? There is no diverting the blood flow without countering the heart and/or the blood vessels themselves. 

Not to mention the fact that he shouldn't be powerful enough to divert their blood anyway. In the same way that trying to damn one path on a forked river isn't going to work if the material you're using isn't strong enough.


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## Fujita (Sep 16, 2013)

Stermor said:


> yep this is pretty much the idee.. only lets look at it like this. every pump normally blood flows amon just divert the blood from the brain to the legs.. which can be done since he is just diverting and not countering the push.. then it comes back up again.. he is diverts it back the heart.. bypassing brain again.. just repeat that cycle for a while and well you get death..



Would you agree that in order for blood to flow into a given vein, there has to be a push pressing it in that direction? Because Amon's going to have to essentially overcome that push in order to stop the blood from going there.



> in this case it is exactly what he can do.. he can't stop the totally in one piece force.. but he can stop alot of smaller forces at the same time



Yes, and the smaller forces don't all add up to the bigger force when you try and resist them all at once. 

 

Now, I thought somebody might try and shoot down willy's superhuman circulatory system thing, seeing as that's a lot easier than taking it as fact and then making up wilder and wilder bloodbending maneuvers to counter it like Stermor's done.  

So



Chainwave said:


> Blood is just a liquid, it has no strength of it's own behind it, a fictional muscle can be trained to crush rocks, skin tissue can be hardened to the durability of metal, but blood has never changed property. What, does it become more viscous, more runny, more solid-y?



You're setting the other side up for failure by just looking at the liquid component of blood alone. Look at the circulatory system as a whole, since the thing that typically causes blood flow is bound to be relevant when we're talking about diverting blood flow.   



> These properties were never suggested, it's fanfiction. In fact, every time you see a character bleed, his/her blood behaves like regular blood. The best assumption you can make about a OP char's blood, is that it can carry more oxygen.



And these super durable people never seem to have a problem undergoing surgery even though they receive minimal damage from cutting attacks that should cleave them in twain. 



> Actually if the blood supposedly travels at amazing speeds, do Strawhats breathe at mach40 or whatever it was? Do they breathe in and out 10000 times per minute? The answer is no, and thus there is no need for their blood to travel at extreme speeds either.



Eh, there is a need for their circulatory system to withstand all of the shocks and wear of superhuman combat. That alone sort of lends itself to superiority over a normal (or less superhuman) circulatory system, which could fuck with bloodbending. Since that could conceivably hinder bloodbending, and I think we've made a decent case for a few ways in which it might, saying bloodbending will work does become a NLF. 



Chainwave said:


> There is no property in a simple liquid such as blood plasma that makes it immune to bloodbending, and no amount of "anatomical superiority", is going to magically create one. If a bloodbender were for example to lift  say.. Sanji into the air, and suspend him there, no amount of physical force would allow him to save himself. Of course this is where shockwave kicks and geppo or whatever comes into play, but that has nothing to do with physical strength.



This is probably your only fair point. This wouldn't really prevent other movements so eh, I guess it's limited how useful this'll be.    

You could also make a case from these characters' improbable inertia helping them resist this; they get hit with stuff that should by all rights send them flying a lot farther than they would normally. 



> And honestly, Avatar is a show for kids, and this makes the bloodbenders awfully compassionate to other human beings, but you have to admit that it's a silly idea that some part of a "human being" makes it so that blood and other liquids can't be ripped out or frozen or evaporated, when waterbenders can drain a tree(the moisture of which is protected by cell walls) to the point of it crumbling into nothingness, with a wave of a hand.



You can manipulate the water in plants at will anytime, but you can only bloodbend under the full moon when your bending is at its strongest. 

Tell me, what exactly does that imply about how hard it is to bend water in people. 

Doesn't matter if it's because the show's for kids, doesn't matter if you don't like it, that's the mechanic.


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

SuperTacocat said:


> I don't have you convince you of anything. Burden of proof is on you. You have to prove that it can't be overcome by brute force because it imposes physical influence.



Actually, no. The burden of proof is on the person who initially made the claim that blood-bending can be overcome by brute force.


----------



## TehChron (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Actually, no. The burden of proof is on the person who initially made the claim that blood-bending can be overcome by brute force.



That burden has been met repeatedly.

Now that you're claiming such limitations dont apply, the burden of proof is on you to do so.

Explaining the forces at work was more than enough. 

So get to work on that burden of yours.


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## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

An peak human character managed to move a little bit on effects of bloodbending
Unless Mako is also a waterbender  brute force was required


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> An peak human character managed to move a little bit on effects of bloodbending
> Unless Mako is also a waterbender  brute force was required



People have always managed to move a little bit ever since blood-bending was first used, that's nothing new. It's never been a sign that they were 'overcoming the technique'. Don't forget that characters with far superior brute force were also unable to overcome it.



TehChron said:


> That burden has been met repeatedly.
> 
> Now that you're claiming such limitations dont apply, the burden of proof is on you to do so.
> 
> ...



Come back when you've got actual reasoning.


----------



## TehChron (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> People have always managed to move a little bit ever since blood-bending was first used, that's nothing new. It's never been a sign that they were 'overcoming the technique'. Don't forget that characters with far superior brute force were also unable to overcome it.
> 
> 
> 
> Come back when you've got actual reasoning.



Name an example instead of just pulling nonsense out of your ass.

The fact that you actually used the term "actual reasoning" is pretty indicative of your level of intelligence.

Anyone with a frontal lobe can tell that said term is so broad as to even include your nonsensical ramblings under the umbrella of its appropriate usage.


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Name an example instead of just pulling nonsense out of your ass.



Still just pointless rambling. Guess you missed the part where I requested 'actual reasoning', or is that just a foreign concept to you?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> People have always managed to move a little bit ever since blood-bending was first used, that's nothing new.


Mako managed to move a decent part of his arm and then thrown a lightning



> It's never been a sign that they were 'overcoming the technique'. Don't forget that characters with far superior brute force were also unable to overcome it.


If a inferior character can move even a little
Blatantly superhuman character won't have problem to overcome the technique 
Amon will be dead before he process a thought anyway


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

TehChron said:


> The fact that you actually used the term "actual reasoning" is pretty indicative of your level of intelligence.
> 
> Anyone with a frontal lobe can tell that said term is so broad as to even include your nonsensical ramblings under the umbrella of its appropriate usage.



That's nice. So are you going to use actual reasoning or just continue to use insults in order to hide the fact that you actually know very, very little?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

This thread is pure autism


----------



## armorknight (Sep 16, 2013)

If a physically inferior character with less willpower can move a bit under bloodbending why the hell would it work on any of the strawhat heavy hitters?


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

Louis Cyphre said:


> Mako managed to move a decent part of his arm and then thrown a lightning



He moved it a few inches if that. As I've stated, we've previously seen victims make similar small movements. People just consider this to be different because he fired off lightning, but the movement made was not actually anything new, and it has never before been used to suggest that people were overcoming the technique.



> If a inferior character can move even a little
> Blatantly superhuman character won't have problem to overcome the technique



And yet they supposedly did


----------



## Fujita (Sep 16, 2013)

... it's actually irrelevant whether or not anybody in the Avatarverse has overcome the technique through sheer force. 

As far as controlling the muscles goes, the technique has no evidence supporting it controlling the muscles of characters stronger than those in the Avatarverse. 

So, by all standards of evidence, it can't.


----------



## TehChron (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> That's nice. So are you going to use actual reasoning or just continue to use insults in order to hide the fact that you actually know very, very little?



You dont say...


*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 




*Spoiler*: __ 



Anything intelligent at all, do you?


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

> And yet they supposedly did


There's no superhuman (in strength at least) characters in Avatar
Are you high on acid?


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

TehChron said:


> You dont say...
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...



Still waiting on that reasoning 



Louis Cyphre said:


> There's no superhuman (in strength at least) characters in Avatar
> Are you high on acid?



  

You haven't watched the show, have you?


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> -snip-



So by what method does Amon control a person's blood that wouldn't come down him overpowering the person he is controlling?


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

Fujita said:


> ... it's actually irrelevant whether or not anybody in the Avatarverse has overcome the technique through sheer force.
> 
> As far as controlling the muscles goes, the technique has no evidence supporting it controlling the muscles of characters stronger than those in the Avatarverse.
> 
> So, by all standards of evidence, it can't.



Perhaps it won't, but in the LOK, it's effectiveness has not been hampered by high levels of strength. Considering that the muscles of the Strawhats - and their entire bodies in general - are mostly composed of water, I'd imagine that blood-bending would still have an effect.



Saitomaru said:


> So by what method does Amon control a person's blood that wouldn't *come down him* overpowering the person he is controlling?



What do you mean by this?


----------



## Fujita (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Perhaps it won't, but in the LOK, it's effectiveness has not been hampered by high levels of strength.



Irrelevant for anybody with greater strength than the people in LOK



> Considering that the muscles of the Strawhats - and their entire bodies in general - are mostly composed of water, I'd imagine that blood-bending would still have an effect.



It'd still "work"

i.e. it'll have an effect

The effect it can generate (based on its feats of overpowering LOK characters) is just so measly compared to the physical strength of people like Zoro that it may as well not be there.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> What do you mean by this?



Typo, it was supposed to say: "So by what method does Amon control a person's blood that wouldn't *come down to him* overpowering the person he is controlling?"

If you're asking for clarification I'm asking how you think his bloodbending works. Since it seems like you're claiming being superhumanly strong wouldn't allow you to resist bloodbending. I just want to know what way he could be controlling their blood that would bypass this obvious problem.


----------



## Louis Cyphre (Sep 16, 2013)

I can't remember decent superhuman strength feats
Can someone enlighten me?


----------



## Mane (Sep 16, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Irrelevant for anybody with greater strength than the people in LOK
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Your argument is that bloodbending wouldn't work on anybody with higher levels of strength than what we've seen in LOK, implying that the stronger the opponent is, the less effective blood-bending would be. However, blood-bending has never been portrayed in this way. Conversely, it's been shown to be just as effective against stronger opponents as it is against weaker ones. The strongest of characters are portrayed as being _just as powerless_ against it. Unless you have proof that stronger opponents possess some sort of immunity to it, this doesn't change.



Saitomaru said:


> Typo, it was supposed to say: "So by what method does Amon control a person's blood that wouldn't *come down to him* overpowering the person he is controlling?"
> 
> If you're asking for clarification I'm asking how you think his bloodbending works. Since it seems like you're claiming being superhumanly strong wouldn't allow you to resist bloodbending. I just want to know what way he could be controlling their blood that would bypass this obvious problem.



Oh I understand, thanks. It seemed to me that strong individuals weren't more resistant to blood-bending because it was the source of their strength which was being controlled. The blood is inside their own muscles so, in a sense, it would be like fighting against themselves since the very muscles that they are trying to use to fight against the technique are themselves being manipulated by someone else. In other words, they would be attempting to contract a muscle fibre in order to stop it from being contracted; it just doesn't work. The very source of their strength is under someone else's control, so they won't even be able to use their strength to begin with. I believe that's the reason why both strong and weak victims in the LOK were affected by the technique to the same extent. 



Louis Cyphre said:


> I can't remember decent superhuman strength feats
> Can someone enlighten me?



Without even breaking a sweat, Korra has lifted a fully grown man along with his children, a giant boulder, etc.


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 16, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So by what method does Amon control a person's blood that wouldn't come down him overpowering the person he is controlling?



Suspending the character in the air. 

Draining them of their blood. 

Cutting off blood supply to areas of body.

And none of these options are as improbable, nor impractical as hypersonic blood vessels.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Your argument is that bloodbending wouldn't work on anybody with higher levels of strength than what we've seen in LOK, implying that the stronger the opponent is, the less effective blood-bending would be. However, blood-bending has never been portrayed in this way. Conversely, it's been shown to be just as effective against stronger opponents as it is against weaker ones. The strongest of characters are portrayed as being _just as powerless_ against it. Unless you have proof that stronger opponents possess some sort of immunity to it, this doesn't change.



So you're assuming that because he could effortlessly hold someone of one level, he should be able to effortlessly hold someone regardless of level...



> Oh I understand, thanks. It seemed to me that strong individuals weren't more resistant to blood-bending because it was the source of their strength which was being controlled. The blood is inside their own muscles so, in a sense, it would be like fighting against themselves since the very muscles that they are trying to use to fight against the technique are themselves being manipulated by someone else. In other words, they would be attempting to contract a muscle fibre in order to stop it from being contracted; it just doesn't work. The very source of their strength is under someone else's control, so they won't even be able to use their strength to begin with. I believe that's the reason why both strong and weak victims in the LOK were affected by the technique to the same extent.



So what you're saying is that somehow, controlling their blood automatically makes their muscles stop working... because his control somehow usurps their control over their own body. There is a lot more to your body (and your muscles) than just your blood. Controlling someone's blood in a purely physical way is not going to prevent their nervous system from sending out the commands to move. Maybe the reason why strong and weak characters were effected evenly is because the strong characters weren't strong enough. What you're proposing is a NLF based on your theories about how an ability works/can work.



> Without even breaking a sweat, Korra has lifted a fully grown man along with his children, a giant boulder, etc.



I don't even read/watch One Piece and I know that isn't shit in comparison to what they have.



> Suspending the character in the air.



Possible.



> Draining them of their blood.



How is he going to do this if he can't puncture their vessels?



> Cutting off blood supply to areas of body.



Their blood vessels and heart are too powerful for him to combat the flow.



> And none of these options are as improbable, nor impractical as hypersonic blood vessels.



The only option that is possible is lifting them, and that doesn't prevent him from getting killed.


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Your argument is that bloodbending wouldn't work on anybody with higher levels of strength than what we've seen in LOK, implying that the stronger the opponent is, the less effective blood-bending would be. However, blood-bending has never been portrayed in this way. Conversely, it's been shown to be just as effective against stronger opponents as it is against weaker ones. The strongest of characters are portrayed as being _just as powerless_ against it. Unless you have proof that stronger opponents possess some sort of immunity to it, this doesn't change.



it's still a physical thing and it's nearly unstoppable _only in the context of Avatar_

saying it could work just as well on people who can punt away buildings, as an example, is not something that should be readily accepted by this section's standards, which makes total sense 

you can't just take an ability that's purely physical and ignore a massive disparity in showings regarding strength, durability, and whatnot and say "yeah that will totally work just as well as it did in this universe, despite the completely different plateaus in power"


----------



## Fujita (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Your argument is that bloodbending wouldn't work on anybody with higher levels of strength than what we've seen in LOK, implying that the stronger the opponent is, the less effective blood-bending would be. However, blood-bending has never been portrayed in this way. Conversely, it's been shown to be just as effective against stronger opponents as it is against weaker ones. The strongest of characters are portrayed as being _just as powerless_ against it. Unless you have proof that stronger opponents possess some sort of immunity to it, this doesn't change.



Unless you have proof that bloodbending is powerful enough to override the muscle control of people vastly stronger than the LOK cast, you don't get to claim as such. 

Just because a technique doesn't have a stated or shown limit, does not mean that this limit does not exist. You're abusing the fuck out of a textbook no-limits fallacy here. 

If anything, I could just claim that bending strength just happens to outweigh physical strength in the Avatarverse and that's why even physically strong characters can't resist the technique. 



> Oh I understand, thanks. It seemed to me that strong individuals weren't more resistant to blood-bending because it was the source of their strength which was being controlled. The blood is inside their own muscles so, in a sense, it would be like fighting against themselves since the very muscles that they are trying to use to fight against the technique are themselves being manipulated by someone else. In other words, they would be attempting to contract a muscle fibre in order to stop it from being contracted; it just doesn't work. The very source of their strength is under someone else's control, so they won't even be able to use their strength to begin with. I believe that's the reason why both strong and weak victims in the LOK were affected by the technique to the same extent.



...going by this logic, a bloodbender would have to try and contract a muscle fibre in order to stop a muscle fiber from being contracted when the person moves, and it just doesn't work.

Neither does this logic.


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## Fujita (Sep 16, 2013)

Holy shit, CD posted something 



Chainwave said:


> Suspending the character in the air.
> 
> Draining them of their blood.
> 
> ...





Way to completely ignore my reply


----------



## Crimson Dragoon (Sep 16, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Holy shit, CD posted something



savor it, because it'll be my last serious post for the day


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## Wan (Sep 16, 2013)

Mane said:


> Your argument is that bloodbending wouldn't work on anybody with higher levels of strength than what we've seen in LOK, implying that the stronger the opponent is, the less effective blood-bending would be. However, blood-bending has never been portrayed in this way. Conversely, it's been shown to be just as effective against stronger opponents as it is against weaker ones. The strongest of characters are portrayed as being _just as powerless_ against it. Unless you have proof that stronger opponents possess some sort of immunity to it, this doesn't change.



This is essentially a no-limits fallacy.  Could Amon use bloodbending on the Hulk?  Goku? Superman?

I used to hold to the argument that a bloodbender is as strong as their normal waterbending.  We see characters like Katara and Hama slicing through solid steel and rock with their waterbending, so it stood to reason that only characters with durability higher than that could resist bloodbending.  Even if they had a lot of strength, if they tried resisting the bloodbending grip they'd tear themselves to shreds against the force being applied to the liquid inside them.

Legend of Korra changed that.  The examples of Korra and Mako resisting showed that it was possible to resist without making yourself go splat like I had theorized.  If you have enough strength, you should be able to resist bloodbending.  (It is important to note that neither Korra or Mako "broke free" of bloodbending.  They were being held by bloodbending but still managed to get just enough movement to pull off attacks on Amon).

Now there's still the question of being able to _apply_ that strength.  If a person is suspended in the air and can't grab anything to apply strength to, his strength would be meaningless.


----------



## willyvereb (Sep 17, 2013)

In regards of suspending people in the air.
There's another common super strength trope called "Super Anchoring".
Characters with super strength can seemingly manipulate their weight with no reason given.
And without crushing the ground or their surroundings beneath them.

Lifting up a character with Class K super strength is about as difficult as lifting up a building with 100-1000 tons of weight.
So no.
Not even lifting them up in the air would work.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 17, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> In regards of suspending people in the air.
> There's another common super strength trope called "Super Anchoring".
> Characters with super strength can seemingly manipulate their weight with no reason given.
> And without crushing the ground or their surroundings beneath them.
> ...



I honestly didn't know this trope was usable in debates, good to know for the future.


----------



## Fujita (Sep 17, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> I honestly didn't know this trope was usable in debates, good to know for the future.



It's easily usable just like it is in-series, i.e. characters aren't BFR'ing each other with a single hit, when it should do that to a person-sized target.


----------



## willyvereb (Sep 17, 2013)

Well, this is also the reason why characters don't get blown away by other external forces like explosions, high-energy projectiles or punches with great amount of Super Strength.
Otherwise a punch out between two super strong dudes would be like a ping-pong match, with them being the balls thrown all around the battlefield after each clash.

So of course it's usable.

Bottom line, bloodbending is a limited form of telekinesis. Telekinesis works b using force from distance. Super strength does mess with the force.
So Super Strength is a direct competition to almost any kind of telekinesis.
Including the bloodbending here.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 17, 2013)

Fujita said:


> It's easily usable just like it is in-series, i.e. characters aren't BFR'ing each other with a single hit, when it should do that to a person-sized target.





willyvereb said:


> Well, this is also the reason why characters don't get blown away by other external forces like explosions, high-energy projectiles or punches with great amount of Super Strength.
> Otherwise a punch out between two super strong dudes would be like a ping-pong match, with them being the balls thrown all around the battlefield after each clash.
> 
> So of course it's usable.
> ...



Okay, thanks.


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## Wan (Sep 17, 2013)

That whole idea smells like bullshit to me.  If you can't anchor yourself on anything, your strength shouldn't matter.  Now your actual _mass_ could matter, but you'd have to prove a logical connection between strength and mass.  And this happening as a "trope" that appears in general should mean jack in a debate.  If it doesn't happen in the series that's being debated, it doesn't apply to the characters in series that's being debated.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that if you want to prove One Piece characters can resist a telekinetic power like bloodbending without holding on to something to anchor themselves, you would need to show them resisting telekinetic powers without holding on to something to anchor themselves, like anything else in the OBD.



Fujita said:


> It's easily usable just like it is in-series, i.e. characters aren't BFR'ing each other with a single hit, when it should do that to a person-sized target.



They can brace themselves when they're hit.


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## willyvereb (Sep 17, 2013)

Except that the said "bracing" would never work when you deliver kilotons of energy or above with each hit.
You'd get flung towards outer space.

Super anchoring is when a character can remain in one place despite receiving an attack of such degree.
And of course like anything it has a limit.
That's why characters with greater strength can throw them around.


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## Wan (Sep 17, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Except that the said "bracing" would never work when you deliver kilotons of energy or above with each hit.
> You'd get flung towards outer space.
> 
> Super anchoring is when a character can remain in one place despite receiving an attack of such degree.
> ...



That, or make a really big impression in the ground, which they usually do.  You're still able to apply your strength in opposition of the force that's being applied to you.

I'm not sure why you mention "kilotons", though, because, even with my limited knowledge of OP, I'm pretty sure EL Strawhats do not dish out and take anything near kiloton-level hits.


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## willyvereb (Sep 17, 2013)

Oman said:


> That, or make a really big impression in the ground, which they usually do.  You're still able to apply your strength in opposition of the force that's being applied to you.



And how's that supposed to hold them in one place?
Seriously you have no idea how large a kiloton of focused TNT force is.
Unless they dig themselves kilometers into the ground before each hit they'd still sent fling regardless.



> I'm not sure why you mention "kilotons", though, because, even with my limited knowledge of OP, I'm pretty sure EL Strawhats do not dish out and take anything near kiloton-level hits.


Maybe because I used a more general/random example?
Besides, ever since the Skypeia Arc Luffy&Co does have kiloton range striking strength.


----------



## Reyes (Sep 17, 2013)

Here are two calcs that put the monster trio at kiloton level during Skypeia


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## TehChron (Sep 17, 2013)

Oman bullshitting and trying to downplay in an Avatarverse thread?

Color me surprised


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## willyvereb (Sep 17, 2013)

@TehChron: Seems like you didn't read this thread in detail.
The only thing we disagree on with Oman is the concept of "Super Anchoring".
Which is indeed an error on his part but that's all.

You could've mentioned 3-4 other names in this thread and your words would've actually carried more truth here.


----------



## TehChron (Sep 17, 2013)

Was referencing Amon attempts to revolt in FMA Amestris, Willy.

Omans nonsense was comparable to Manes. Whom I called an idiot outright, rather than biased.

Its not like I play favorites with my contempt, you know.Was


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 17, 2013)

willyvereb said:


> Well, this is also the reason why characters don't get blown away by other external forces like explosions, high-energy projectiles or punches with great amount of Super Strength.
> Otherwise a punch out between two super strong dudes would be like a ping-pong match, with them being the balls thrown all around the battlefield after each clash.
> 
> So of course it's usable.
> ...



Nonsense.

OP Characters cannot change their own direction in midair without the use of a special technique, this is proof that they don't have any kind of "super anchoring". Characters can. and often choose to have the energy of their blows force more damage onto the characters instead of knocking them back farther, the receiver of the attack has no way to supernaturally affect his own recovery, he can either brace himself or dodge. Otherwise anyone who got surprise punched would fly to another country. 

That said, OP chars don't have any kind of SUPER blood flow. Luffy's Gear2 increases the speed of his blood flow, the result is he runs out of nutrients and tires out. OP chars would exhaust themselves in seconds if their blood was clocking at mach40 inside their blood vessels. Neither do they breathe in and out 100 times per second. Their bloodflow is normal.


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> Nonsense.
> 
> OP Characters cannot change their own direction in midair without the use of a special technique, this is proof that they don't have any kind of "super anchoring". Characters can. and often choose to have the energy of their blows force more damage onto the characters instead of knocking them back farther, the receiver of the attack has no way to supernaturally affect his own recovery, he can either brace himself or dodge. Otherwise anyone who got surprise punched would fly to another country.
> 
> That said, OP chars don't have any kind of SUPER blood flow. Luffy's Gear2 increases the speed of his blood flow, the result is he runs out of nutrients and tires out. OP chars would exhaust themselves in seconds if their blood was clocking at mach40 inside their blood vessels. Neither do they breathe in and out 100 times per second. Their bloodflow is normal.



>Not knowing that 'bracing themselves' is essentially super anchoring.


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 17, 2013)

So if a character doesn't brace himself, he flies to another country? That's nonsensical. There's a mountain of evidence against your imaginary trope. Did Kizaru's blitz of the supernovas involve them blasting off thousands of kilometers away? Why is Franky's Coup de vent able to knockback something that stronger attacks can't? What reason did Luffy have for developing his stupid helicopter move if he apparently can control himself in midair?


----------



## Saitomaru (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> So if a character doesn't brace himself, he flies to another country? That's nonsensical. There's a mountain of evidence against your imaginary trope. Did Kizaru's blitz of the supernovas involve them blasting off thousands of kilometers away? Why is Franky's Coup de vent able to knockback something that stronger attacks can't? What reason did Luffy have for developing his stupid helicopter move if he apparently can control himself in midair?



You do realize the shit you're listing is _proving_ their point...


----------



## Fujita (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> OP Characters cannot change their own direction in midair without the use of a special technique, this is proof that they don't have any kind of "super anchoring".



Irrelevant since the anchoring's all about making sure they don't end up in midair, not what happens when they do. 

May as well claim a character can't walk at all because they can't do so in the air. 



> That said, OP chars don't have any kind of SUPER blood flow. Luffy's Gear2 increases the speed of his blood flow, the result is he runs out of nutrients and tires out. OP chars would exhaust themselves in seconds if their blood was clocking at mach40 inside their blood vessels. Neither do they breathe in and out 100 times per second. Their bloodflow is normal.



I think you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot with that example. 

Given that Luffy amps his bloodstream and yet you never see jets of blood spewing out at hypersonic speeds and decapitating people or whatever you said should happen. In fact, he seems to bleed more or less like anybody else, _even when using Gear 2_.

Now, granted, Luffy amplifies his bloodflow to gain more power, something that would kill a normal person. Lucci says as much, describing it as a "doping" technique that only a rubber human could use.  

But all that really tells us is that amping the blood flow above base Luffy level should prove fatal, not what level base Luffy has. And, interestingly enough, makes a bit of a correlation between bloodflow and the strength of one's metabolism.

And on that general note, I guess I'll repeat this again.



			
				Me said:
			
		

> There is a need for their circulatory system to withstand all of the shocks and wear of superhuman combat. That alone sort of lends itself to superiority over a normal (or less superhuman) circulatory system, which could fuck with bloodbending.





Chainwave said:


> So if a character doesn't brace himself, he flies to another country? That's nonsensical.



It's exactly what'd happen if people-sized things got hit with the kinds of energy these people throw around on a regular basis. 

The "trope" that we're talking about is the fact that, fiction being fiction, this doesn't happen. 



> There's a mountain of evidence against your imaginary trope.



Let's see it then.



> Did Kizaru's blitz of the supernovas involve them blasting off thousands of kilometers away?



This only goes to support the existence of the trope. 



> Why is Franky's Coup de vent able to knockback something that stronger attacks can't?



That's... I guess a variant on the trope. 



> What reason did Luffy have for developing his stupid helicopter move if he apparently can control himself in midair?



Not even relevant, as I said above.


----------



## Mane (Sep 17, 2013)

Saitomaru said:


> So you're assuming that because he could effortlessly hold someone of one level, he should be able to effortlessly hold someone regardless of level...



What I saying was that considering several people possessing various levels of strength all appeared to have been affected by blood-bending to the same extent, physical strength doesn't seem to offer much resistance. However, I guess this is only relevant within the realm of the LOK.



> So what you're saying is that somehow, controlling their blood automatically makes their muscles stop working... because his control somehow usurps their control over their own body. There is a lot more to your body (and your muscles) than just your blood. Controlling someone's blood in a purely physical way is not going to prevent their nervous system from sending out the commands to move.



But unless the muscles contract, the fired signals don't mean much. The muscles themselves wouldn't be able to contract normally since they are full of liquid; liquid which is being controlled. It's not even as though they are pushing or pulling against an external force force since the resistance is from within the organs which produce the strength. So yeah I'm still not sold on this, but I guess it doesn't really matter anyway.



> I don't even read/watch One Piece and I know that isn't shit in comparison to what they have.



I wasn't trying to compare them. Somebody else claimed that people in the LOK do not have superhuman strength, so I was simply correcting them. I know that it isn't even close to the level of what OP characters are capable of.



> Maybe the reason why strong and weak characters were effected evenly is because the strong characters weren't strong enough. What you're proposing is a NLF based on your theories about how an ability works/can work.






Fujita said:


> Unless you have proof that bloodbending is powerful enough to override the muscle control of people vastly stronger than the LOK cast, you don't get to claim as such.
> 
> Just because a technique doesn't have a stated or shown limit, does not mean that this limit does not exist. You're abusing the fuck out of a textbook no-limits fallacy here.
> 
> ...





Crimson Dragoon said:


> it's still a physical thing and it's nearly unstoppable _only in the context of Avatar_
> 
> saying it could work just as well on people who can punt away buildings, as an example, is not something that should be readily accepted by this section's standards, which makes total sense
> 
> you can't just take an ability that's purely physical and ignore a massive disparity in showings regarding strength, durability, and whatnot and say "yeah that will totally work just as well as it did in this universe, despite the completely different plateaus in power"





Oman said:


> This is essentially a no-limits fallacy.  Could Amon use bloodbending on the Hulk?  Goku? Superman?
> 
> I used to hold to the argument that a bloodbender is as strong as their normal waterbending.  We see characters like Katara and Hama slicing through solid steel and rock with their waterbending, so it stood to reason that only characters with durability higher than that could resist bloodbending.  Even if they had a lot of strength, if they tried resisting the bloodbending grip they'd tear themselves to shreds against the force being applied to the liquid inside them.
> 
> ...



I'm going to stop here. I've stated from the start that I know very little about One Piece and was therefore never truly sure about how blood-bending would affect them. It seems that I would be mistaken in assuming that the same rules governing the Avatarverse would apply to OP.



TehChron said:


> Was referencing Amon attempts to revolt in FMA Amestris, Willy.
> 
> Omans nonsense was comparable to Manes. Whom I called an idiot outright, rather than biased.
> 
> Its not like I play favorites with my contempt, you know.Was



I knew you were around here somewhere, scurrying about in the shadows


----------



## Chainwave (Sep 17, 2013)

Fujita said:


> Irrelevant since the anchoring's all about making sure they don't end up in midair, not what happens when they do.
> 
> May as well claim a character can't walk at all because they can't do so in the air.



They have no control over themselves in midair. Bracing yourself requires the ground to push off from. What don't you understand.



Fujita said:


> I think you're kind of shooting yourself in the foot with that example.
> 
> Given that Luffy amps his bloodstream and yet you never see jets of blood spewing out at hypersonic speeds and decapitating people or whatever you said should happen. In fact, he seems to bleed more or less like anybody else, _even when using Gear 2_.
> 
> ...


That's because Luffy's blood IS NOT HYPERSONIC, Gear2 or not. Do you know what amping blood flow does for Luffy? It rapes his stamina. It uses up all the nutrients in his body, because that's what blood does, deliver oxygen and nutrients. IF the blood was circulating at a ridiculous mach40, Luffy or anyone else would exhaust themselves in moments. Hypersonic bloodflow is ridiculous. What else would OP chars have, Hypersonic digestive systems? Hypersonic biological clocks? Do their white blood cells also clock at mach40? Does that mean OP bacteria is hypersonic? 
This assumption of hypersonic blood is just as ridiculous as anything I listed above.






Fujita said:


> It's exactly what'd happen if people-sized things got hit with the kinds of energy these people throw around on a regular basis.
> 
> The "trope" that we're talking about is the fact that, fiction being fiction, this doesn't happen.





Fujita said:


> This only goes to support the existence of the trope.



You didn't get what I said. If a character *fails* to react to an attack, and *fails* to brace himself, does he fly away into the stratosphere? Like when Kizaru kicked the three supernovas, who had no chance of bracing themselves or doing anything else, did they end up in another country? No, they didn't. And don't say they anchored themselves after getting hit, because those kicks also knocked them out.



Fujita said:


> That's... I guess a variant on the trope.



No that outright defies the trope. A gust of wind knocks someone off their feet and sends them flying. Why can't they super-anchor themselves against it?


----------



## Fujita (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> They have no control over themselves in midair. Bracing yourself requires the ground to push off from. What don't you understand.



...

That's not an issue if they never end up in the air in the first place. What don't you understand?



> That's because Luffy's blood IS NOT HYPERSONIC, Gear2 or not.



And nobody ever claimed it was. Seriously, I think you just misread willy's post talking about what kind of bloodstream you'd need to support a metabolism that lets you perform hypersonic _punches_. 

Gear 2 does still show that they needn't have abnormal blood spurts with accelerated bloodflow, though. 



> Do you know what amping blood flow does for Luffy? It rapes his stamina. It uses up all the nutrients in his body, because that's what blood does, deliver oxygen and nutrients. IF the blood was circulating at a ridiculous mach40, Luffy or anyone else would exhaust themselves in moments.



Why, because you say so?

There exists this concept of superhuman stamina. 

Gear 2 tears Luffy's body apart from the sheer overdose of power, _compared to what his original bloodflow does_. 

His bloodflow could be Mach 40 normally and Gear 2 would still operate the way you say it does. 

Anyway, my point is pretty simple: the circulatory systems of these characters stand up to wear and tear that Avatarverse characters' bloodstreams haven't. This means they have to be stronger in some respect, and that makes the use of bloodbending a NLF. 



> Hypersonic bloodflow is ridiculous. What else would OP chars have, Hypersonic digestive systems? Hypersonic biological clocks? Do their white blood cells also clock at mach40? Does that mean OP bacteria is hypersonic?
> This assumption of hypersonic blood is just as ridiculous as anything I listed above.



No more ridiculuous than hypersonic reactons are in the first place. 

I mean, what, does every second seem like an eternity to them? Damn that's moronic. 



> You didn't get what I said.







> If a character *fails* to react to an attack, and *fails* to brace himself, does he fly away into the stratosphere?



No and that's the bloody point. 

I think you've gotten bogged down in the idea of bracing, which is not exactly what we're talking about here. Actually, Oman brought it up in the first place in order to counter the use of the power = weight trope. Which is nothing more than the simple observation that characters generally have the inertia to not go flying into space when they trade hits with people who should logically have the force to do that.

Which is what willy (and I) have been arguing about. 

Maybe it's Saitomaru's fault for saying that bracing's the same as "super anchoring"

Actually no, scratch that, I'm not going to blame him for somebody else's failure to read the thread properly. 



> Like when Kizaru kicked the three supernovas, who had no chance of bracing themselves or doing anything else, did they end up in another country? No, they didn't. And don't say they anchored themselves after getting hit, because those kicks also knocked them out.



And that'd be because it's a passive trait of sorts. 



> No that outright defies the trope. A gust of wind knocks someone off their feet and sends them flying. Why can't they super-anchor themselves against it?



It's inconsistent no matter what you make of the trope. So not a great counterexample.


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## Chainwave (Sep 17, 2013)

Sigh.. Why am I doing this..

Let's get back to the original quote about this trope.



willyvereb said:


> In regards of suspending people in the air.
> There's another common super strength trope called "Super Anchoring".
> Characters with super strength can seemingly manipulate their weight with no reason given.
> And without crushing the ground or their surroundings beneath them.
> ...



The definition of "Super Anchoring" is the apparent manipulation of weight. That makes no sense for a multitude of reasons. 

First, is this Super Anchoring involuntary? If it is, characters should have no control over it and it is always applicable to every attack they receive, and if it isn't they should have no control if it when knocked out or surprised, in which case it is off and they should go flying for miles. 

Involuntary Super Anchoring doesn't exist. 
this shit
this shit
Don't make me search for more proofs, they're out there, they're plentiful, and nothing of the in-universe lore or storyline suggests otherwise.

Do characters then have to manually activate this Super Anchoring? I they do, then being blitzed or being knocked out means, they fly away. This hasn't happened in any fights featuring high level characters.

Also:
this shit

If a net can lift a strawhat, so can bloodbending. I don't see Luffy magically adjusting his weight here, mainly because he can't.

Super Anchoring doesn't exist in One Piece.
It exists in Dragon Ball because the magical force responsible for it is Ki.
It exists in Bleach because the magical force responsible is reiatsu.
It exists in Final Fantasy because Final Fantasy has a liberal interpretation of physics. Also magic.
It exists in comics for some characters because they have supernatural resources that allow it.

It doesn't exist in One Piece. And neither does stupid fast or super powerful bloodstream. If the character gushes out blood, and that blood doesn't come out like a pressurized jet stream, and if isn't a superheavy object that cracks the ground when it lands, then it is regular blood, that flows through the veins at regular pace, and is not resistant to any kind of blood manipulation. 
The veins might be super durable, but they haven't been shown to exhibit any kind of additional pressure on the blood, therefore unless there is evidence that they do, *they don't*.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> Sigh.. Why am I doing this..
> 
> Let's get back to the original quote about this trope.
> 
> ...



Why are you even arguing about the bloodstream when their blood vessels (and hearts) would be more powerful than anything Amon has dealt with? You want proof of their powerful blood vessels? See anytime they hit each other and don't instantly hemorrhage. As I already pointed out he would be unable to do anything to them even with control over their blood. And why is this argument even being had? Aren't they more than fast enough to blitz him? Stop wasting time arguing tropes.


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## Fujita (Sep 17, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> The definition of "Super Anchoring" is the apparent manipulation of weight. That makes no sense for a multitude of reasons.
> 
> First, is this Super Anchoring involuntary? If it is, characters should have no control over it and it is always applicable to every attack they receive, and if it isn't they should have no control if it when knocked out or surprised, in which case it is off and they should go flying for miles.
> 
> ...



> Implying that anchoring means they never get thrown

All right. 



> Do characters then have to manually activate this Super Anchoring? I they do, then being blitzed or being knocked out means, they fly away. This hasn't happened in any fights featuring high level characters.
> 
> Also:
> this shit
> ...



> Seastone net

Something that robs characters of all their strength is not really a good example to bring up here. 

But putting that aside, this is also a bad example because characters only display this "weight gain" (maybe inertia gain would make a little more sense) in combat situations. Using non-combat counterexamples makes about as much sense as saying they can't have hypersonic reactions because they interact in everyday life with ordinary people without any indication that they have to deliberately slow down their talking speed or whatever. 

This concept of "super anchoring" is based off of shit that happens in the manga.

Every time high-level characters get hit and don't go flying as far as they would if something of their mass got hit with that force irl, they are displaying some sort of increased inertia. That happens _constantly_. 

It doesn't need to be explained in the lore, it just needs to happen.



> Super Anchoring doesn't exist in One Piece.
> It exists in Dragon Ball because the magical force responsible for it is Ki.
> It exists in Bleach because the magical force responsible is reiatsu.
> It exists in Final Fantasy because Final Fantasy has a liberal interpretation of physics. Also magic.
> It exists in comics for some characters because they have supernatural resources that allow it.



See above.



> If the character gushes out blood, and that blood doesn't come out like a pressurized jet stream, and if isn't a superheavy object that cracks the ground when it lands, then it is regular blood, that flows through the veins at regular pace, and is not resistant to any kind of blood manipulation.



The blood itself is irrelevant. And again, Gear 2 makes the pressurization thing a shitty counterexample, because we don't observe that with a clearly rapid blood flow. 



> The veins might be super durable, but they haven't been shown to exhibit any kind of additional pressure on the blood, therefore unless there is evidence that they do, *they don't*.



They exert enough pressure to prevent the blood from splattering everywhere or gushing backwards when the vessels themselves are hit. That should apply generally to maintaining a consistent bloodflow, whether the pressure preventing that comes from outside the vessels or from within (with the blood getting manipulated).  

Willy's also right that a high-functioning metabolism is pretty damn reasonable for these characters.


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## Chainwave (Sep 17, 2013)

My original point was that a character can be lifted into the air by bloodbending. Then Willy claimed that Super Anchoring prevents this, by having a character manipulate(?) his own weight. The reason he said "weight", and not inertia or force or anything else  is because once a character is lifted into the air by the center of his mass, he can't apply any kind of force, nor create any sort of inertia that would send the character down. However, weight can. Thus according to him, every time a character is punched, he gains 10000tons or however much he needs. I hope I don't need to explain to you how ridiculous this is.


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## Saitomaru (Sep 18, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> My original point was that a character can be lifted into the air by bloodbending. Then Willy claimed that Super Anchoring prevents this, by having a character manipulate(?) his own weight. The reason he said "weight", and not inertia or force or anything else  is because once a character is lifted into the air by the center of his mass, he can't apply any kind of force, nor create any sort of inertia that would send the character down. However, weight can. Thus according to him, every time a character is punched, he gains 10000tons or however much he needs. I hope I don't need to explain to you how ridiculous this is.



Ridiculously irrelevant in a thread where he doesn't even get a chance to bloodbend.


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## P-X 12 (Sep 18, 2013)

Why are we even discussing whether or not blood bending would work on him or not? Wouldn't Amon be speedblitzed to shit way before he can do anything?


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## Fujita (Sep 18, 2013)

Chainwave said:


> My original point was that a character can be lifted into the air by bloodbending. Then Willy claimed that Super Anchoring prevents this, by having a character manipulate(?) his own weight. The reason he said "weight", and not inertia or force or anything else  is because once a character is lifted into the air by the center of his mass, he can't apply any kind of force, nor create any sort of inertia that would send the character down. However, weight can. Thus according to him, every time a character is punched, he gains 10000tons or however much he needs.



And now you've just started restating your original argument, ignoring my counters entirely. 



> I hope I don't need to explain to you how ridiculous this is.



...claiming something's self-evident (i.e. "it just is!") is a shit argument. 

I took the time to address your points. 

You could at least try and extend the same courtesy. 



Saitomaru said:


> Ridiculously irrelevant in a thread where he doesn't even get a chance to bloodbend.





Phx12 said:


> Why are we even discussing whether or not blood bending would work on him or not? Wouldn't Amon be speedblitzed to shit way before he can do anything?



Because fun.


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## shade0180 (Sep 18, 2013)

You guys already made a circle this should be locked..


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## Darth Niggatron (Sep 18, 2013)

For those that said he would bloodbend the SH's, would you say the same of thor? Sanji can blitz.


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