# Prime Sengoku vs. Kaido



## Shanks (Mar 14, 2021)

Location: MF
Mindset: IC
Distance Apart: 100 meters

Just curios how this match up might go, considering Sengoku should be able to by pass Kaido's scale.

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

Kaido gets choked by the giant chad and forced into submission. He then becomes a buddhist and stops craving violence.
Or
Sengoku calls Garp and they play tennis with his head while Kaido has God Valley flashbacks.









On a serious note, Sengoku probably extreme diffs considering he has been put on the same level as Roger, Whitebeard and Garp yet he is still underrated by many. It would by very interesting to see hybrid Sengoku vs hybrid Kaido.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1 | Funny 3 | Winner 2


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

Sengoku has never been put to Roger's level lol 

OT : Kaido with a solid high diff. Might be forced to hybrid.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 6 | Optimistic 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Fel1x (Mar 14, 2021)

Kaido high diff


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> Sengoku has never been put to Roger's level lol
> 
> OT : Kaido with a solid high diff. Might be forced to hybrid.




Top right panel.
The guy was the fleet admiral from Roger's era smh. He's the only marine confirmed to have conqueror's haki. Both Sengoku and Garp were called the legends of the marines.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Pagn6 (Mar 14, 2021)

Sengoku wins.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Tier Specialist 4


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Top right panel.
> The guy was the fleet admiral from Roger's era smh. He's the only marine confirmed to have conqueror's haki. Both Sengoku and Garp were called the legends of the marines.


That doesn't make you Roger level. Besides, Garp was also portrayed to be a bit ahead of him.


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> On a serious note, Sengoku probably extreme diffs considering he has been put on the same level as Roger, Whitebeard and Garp


This has never happened
Anyways Kaidou has far superior feats and hype.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

Ezekjuninor said:


> This has never happened
> Anyways Kaidou has far superior feats and hype.


Always nice when you completely ignore my post above. Don't bother replying to me

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> That doesn't make you Roger level. Besides, Garp was also portrayed to be a bit ahead of him.


Show the "potrayal" that garp was above him? Also even if he was, he was used in the same heartbeat as Garp by Roger and Roger even implied he would have a great fight with him too.


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Show the "potrayal" that garp was above him? Also even if he was, he was used in the same heartbeat as Garp by Roger and Roger even implied he would have a great fight with him too.


Garp was an actual rival to Roger and was the Hero of the Marine. Having a great fight doesn't mean you're on the same level, you're confusing words and concepts.


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> Garp was an actual rival to Roger and was the Hero of the Marine. Having a great fight doesn't mean you're on the same level, you're confusing words and concepts.


Its literally above you in the manga. Roger considered Sengoku and Garp in the same heartbeat. By that logic its pretty damn easy to infer they are of around the same level. I dont need to keep going over this.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> Sengoku has never been put to Roger's level lol
> 
> OT : Kaido with a solid high diff. Might be forced to hybrid.


”Next time bring Sengoku or Garp!”

- Gol D. Roger

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> ”Next time bring Sengoku or Garp!”
> 
> - Gol D. Roger


If you think that this implies Roger = Sengoku, you have no clue how implications work.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Its literally above you in the manga. Roger considered Sengoku and Garp in the same heartbeat. By that logic its pretty damn easy to infer they are of around the same level. I dont need to keep going over this.


They are close, yes, but not on the same level. Garp was always the one who stood out.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> If you think that this implies Roger = Sengoku, you have no clue how implications work.


Where did I say that implies that Roger equals Sengoku? It tells us that Roger would have a hard fight against Sengoku or Garp. I don’t think either of them were exactly equal to Roger, but they were both strong enough to give him a high diff fight. Kaido probably isn’t equal to Roger either.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 14, 2021)

They're pretty much even but I'd give Sengoku the benefit of a doubt here simply due to discipline and willpower, aswell as his rivalry with legends like Shiki and WB + Roger's latest hype for Sengoku.

Roger, Garp, Primebeard >= Sengoku, Shiki >
= Yonks = Admirals

Reactions: Like 4


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## Draco Bolton (Mar 14, 2021)

Kaido extrem diff with hybrid


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## TheRealSJ (Mar 14, 2021)

TheWiggian said:


> They're pretty much even but I'd give Sengoku the benefit of a doubt here simply due to discipline and willpower, aswell as his rivalry with legends like Shiki and WB + Roger's latest hype for Sengoku.
> 
> Roger, Garp, Primebeard >= Sengoku, Shiki >
> = Yonks = Admirals


wow i'm actually agreeing with you for the first and (hopefully) last time


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## Nikseng (Mar 14, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Where did I say that implies that Roger equals Sengoku? It tells us that Roger would have a hard fight against Sengoku or Garp. I don’t think either of them were exactly equal to Roger, but they were both strong enough to give him a high diff fight. Kaido probably isn’t equal to Roger either.


Then why are you quoting me  ? It's exactly what I said/think.

Prime Roger > Prime Garp = Kaido > Prime Sengoku imo.

Sengoku can give Roger a good scrap. He's *definitely* not on the same level though.


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## TheWiggian (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> wow i'm actually agreeing with you for the first and (hopefully) last time



I honestly feel ashamed knowing that now, but it is what it is...


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## KBD (Mar 14, 2021)

Kaido highdiffs.. While starting drunk


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## Ezekjuninor (Mar 14, 2021)

TheRealSJ said:


> Always nice when you completely ignore my post above. Don't bother replying to me


I can't see whatever panel you posted. If you're referring to Roger asking for Garp or Sengoku as evidence for Sengoku being stronger than Kaidou it's laughable at best


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## Beast (Mar 14, 2021)

Shit, I don’t know... 

Both have all three hakis.
Both have mythical zoans. 
both once at the top of their league (Kaidou is still currently).

im guessing Kaidou has more raw power and strength but Sengokus got more intelligence and tactical skills.

I think it could go either way, leaning to Sengoku because I like the old gen more, plus if we are being serious if a fish fruit can make elemental attacks and make island fly, Sengokus Buddha should be just as good if not better.


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 14, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> Then why are you quoting me  ? It's exactly what I said/think.
> 
> Prime Roger > Prime Garp = Kaido > Prime Sengoku imo.
> 
> Sengoku can give Roger a good scrap. He's *definitely* not on the same level though.


Why do you think Kaido is equal to Garp and Sengoku isn’t, even though Garp and Sengoku have constantly been grouped together?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Corax (Mar 14, 2021)

Prime Sengoku has no feats. Depends on how we take on Roger's hype. He was a good/fun fight for Roger,so assume at least high diff. Can Roger high diff Kaido?I think yes. I think extreme diff either way. And yeah,his shockwaves ignore dragon scales,so he has his own means to damage Kaido internally.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 14, 2021)

Sick match up.

Going with Prime Sengoku. He was shown plenty respect by the 2 WSM, and stood shoulder to shoulder with Garp as the face of the Marines for that period, as an Admiral in Roger/WB's era . Even Whitebeard included him amongst his peers, and Roger wanted to fight him as well as Garp.

I just think that Garp, Kong, and Sengoku had to have been some monsters in their era, and could definitely take on today's Yonko.

Reactions: Like 6 | Agree 1


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## trance (Mar 14, 2021)

kaido extreme diff


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## VileNotice (Mar 14, 2021)

There's nothing suggesting Sengoku was stronger than the color trio in his prime, he was simply the best the marines had to offer at the time besides Garp. Roger's statement doesn't put Sengoku on his level, Garp was still the one cornering him. Never was Sengoku named as a personal rival, Roger probably just considered him as a good fight for Rayleigh.

In fact Oda has gone out of his way to show the marines gain strength during the Great Age of Pirates, and then again after Marineford. Garp was an anomaly, the marines were overall weaker in Roger's day. And Old Sengoku looked weaker than the admirals and Garp during MF, which lends further credence to him being what is now standard admiral level in his prime. 

Kaido high diffs with hybrid.


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## Mihawk (Mar 14, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> There's nothing suggesting Sengoku was stronger than the color trio in his prime, *he was simply the best the marines had to offer at the time besides Garp. *Roger's statement doesn't put Sengoku on his level, Garp was still the one cornering him. Never was Sengoku named as a personal rival,


Sengoku was an Admiral at the time, and Garp would've been too if he accepted the promotion. Why wouldn't they be close to equal to each other if they were both the Admirals? There was no one else known from the Marines at the time who could possibly match up with WB/Roger, Shiki, Rocks crew, etc. unless you count Zephyr as canon. No way Garp could've done all that alone. Sengoku was also implied to have some sort of rivalry himself with Newgate, similar to Garp's with Roger, but not as fleshed out.

He doesn't have to be Roger's rival. He just has to be close to Garp, and their screen time together as comrades seem to indicate that he was/is. The admirals are always nigh equal to each other. Even Sakazuki & Borsalino rose up the ranks together. Garp & Sengoku were definitely the duo of their generation. Also, it doesn't make sense for Garp to be substantially stronger than Sengoku but equal to Kaido.



> Roger probably just considered him as a good fight for Rayleigh.



This is speculative, as Roger literally said only Garp and Sengoku of the Marines could give him a good fight, putting them in the same sentence. It's more than likely he could beat either of them, but they were the strongest people the Marines had to offer against Roger, which is just as much hype for someone like Kaido; who has fought against, and likely took Ls against Roger too.


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 14, 2021)

KAIDO GETS SMACK HE WONT EVEN GET CLOSE TO SENGOKU, (admirals=yonkos), Sengoku mid high-diff, old sengoku low extreme

Reactions: Agree 1 | Tier Specialist 3 | Dislike 3


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## Mihawk (Mar 14, 2021)

Wylin

Reactions: Like 2


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 14, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Wylin


me?


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## VileNotice (Mar 14, 2021)

Doflamingo said:


> Sengoku was an Admiral at the time, and Garp would've been too if he accepted the promotion. Why wouldn't they be close to equal to each other if they were both the Admirals? There was no one else known from the Marines at the time who could possibly match up with WB/Roger, Shiki, Rocks crew, etc. unless you count Zephyr as canon. No way Garp could've done all that alone. Sengoku was also implied to have some sort of rivalry himself with Newgate, similar to Garp's with Roger, but not as fleshed out.


The Marines at the time didn't do much of anything to match up to those pirates from what we know, aside from Garp chasing Roger around. There's a reason Garp had to team up with Roger to take down Rocks, the marines weren't the organization they are now. The other two admirals at the time (assuming there were 3) could easily have been weaker on average with Sengoku being the only top tier, which doesn't automatically place him above the current admirals.


Doflamingo said:


> He doesn't have to be Roger's rival. He just has to be close to Garp, and their screen time together as comrades seem to indicate that he was/is. The admirals are always nigh equal to each other. Even Sakazuki & Borsalino rose up the ranks together. Garp & Sengoku were definitely the duo of their generation. Also, it doesn't make sense for Garp to be substantially stronger than Sengoku but equal to Kaido.


If the admirals were always close to each other than Roger would have named two others alongside Sengoku. As I said, everything points to Garp and Sengoku being the strongest marines at the time but that doesn't make featless prime Sengoku stronger than the current strongest creature. Prime Garp being a slight bit stronger than Kaido makes sense to me, that means he and Kaido both would defeat prime Sengoku highish diff.


Doflamingo said:


> This is speculative, as Roger literally said only Garp and Sengoku of the Marines could give him a good fight, putting them in the same sentence. It's more than likely he could beat either of them, but they were the strongest people the Marines had to offer against Roger, which is just as much hype for someone like Kaido; who has fought against, and likely took Ls against Roger too.


If the only thing we knew about prime Garp was that quote then yes he and prime Sengoku would be comparable. But Garp is the one with the recorded rivalry with Roger, and he's the one who took down Rocks. Sengoku was a better leader yet not as strong, that's always been his relationship to Garp.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sloan (Mar 14, 2021)

Scan implying or showing Sengoku has CoC Haki?


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## Lee-Sensei (Mar 14, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> The Marines at the time didn't do much of anything to match up to those pirates from what we know, aside from Garp chasing Roger around. There's a reason Garp had to team up with Roger to take down Rocks, the marines weren't the organization they are now. The other two admirals at the time (assuming there were 3) could easily have been weaker on average with Sengoku being the only top tier, which doesn't automatically place him above the current admirals.
> 
> If the admirals were always close to each other than Roger would have named two others alongside Sengoku. As I said, everything points to Garp and Sengoku being the strongest marines at the time but that doesn't make featless prime Sengoku stronger than the current strongest creature. Prime Garp being a slight bit stronger than Kaido makes sense to me, that means he and Kaido both would defeat prime Sengoku highish diff.
> 
> If the only thing we knew about prime Garp was that quote then yes he and prime Sengoku would be comparable. But Garp is the one with the recorded rivalry with Roger, and he's the one who took down Rocks. Sengoku was a better leader yet not as strong, that's always been his relationship to Garp.


Whitebeard and Roger both grouped Sengoku and Garp. If your going to place Prime Garp above the current Yonko, there’s much more reason to think that Sengoku was his equal and Kaido wasn’t.


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## Shanks (Mar 15, 2021)

I scale Sengoku around Rayleigh (both old and Prime). Sengoku should take this more time than not imo due to not only his advantages to by pass the scale, but a golden buhdda should resist most of Kaido's attacks. Based on what Kaido have shown, only Thurder bangou can do anything to Sengoku. 

Kaido will have more to show with hybrid, but so does Sengoku.


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## Jo Ndule (Mar 15, 2021)

Kaido high high diff

Kaido>Sengoku /Garp>~Akainu >=Admirals

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## convict (Mar 15, 2021)

Kaido extreme diff.

Reactions: GODA 1


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## Duhul10 (Mar 15, 2021)

Kaido high diff. Hybrid will put us on our asses, base is already ridiculous.


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## cry77 (Mar 15, 2021)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Where did I say that implies that Roger equals Sengoku? It tells us that Roger would have a hard fight against Sengoku or Garp. I don’t think either of them were exactly equal to Roger, but they were both strong enough to give him a high diff fight. Kaido probably isn’t equal to Roger either.


And anyone who would be a hard fight for Roger would be an even match for Kaido.

Either way extreme diff. Leaning towards Sengoku by virtue of old legends in their prime > current yonko and admirals. It was tougher back then.

Reactions: Like 2 | Tier Specialist 1


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## Delta Shell (Mar 15, 2021)

I always wanted Sengoku to be a beast, like he's the fleet admiral I thought he should have been completely unstoppable. 

When I saw the Buddha fruit transformation I was expecting some omnipotent abilities to be displayed but honestly this guy's only showing was at marineford and overall he came across as disappointing AF. In my heart he's stronger than C3. In my brain I can't justify that. 

He also seem to have a decent fight against Shiki with Garp's help. Which is kinda a bummer.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## YonkoDrippy (Mar 15, 2021)

Kaido wins. Sengoku isn’t Roger or Garps Lvl. So he’s losing here


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## Shanks (Mar 15, 2021)

Delta Shell said:


> I always wanted Sengoku to be a beast, like he's the fleet admiral I thought he should have been completely unstoppable.
> 
> When I saw the Buddha fruit transformation I was expecting some omnipotent abilities to be displayed but honestly this guy's only showing was at marineford and overall he came across as disappointing AF. In my heart he's stronger than C3. In my brain I can't justify that.
> 
> He also seem to have a decent fight against Shiki with Garp's help. Which is kinda a bummer.


Or Maybe he is actually that strong, and similar to Big Mom, Sengoku's core stats is defensive as oppose offensive? I can see him tanking Yasakani no Magatama.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Kroczilla (Mar 15, 2021)

Leaning towards Kaido.


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## Mihawk (Mar 15, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> The Marines at the time didn't do much of anything to match up to those pirates from what we know, aside from Garp chasing Roger around. There's a reason Garp had to team up with Roger to take down Rocks, the marines weren't the organization they are now. The other two admirals at the time (assuming there were 3) could easily have been weaker on average with Sengoku being the only top tier, which doesn't automatically place him above the current admirals.


Why is that the case? Surely the Marines weren't just around for the sake of it while Garp went on his goose chase with Roger. Oda has only very recently revealed more about that era. Before that, details were sparse and almost everything happened off-panel. The Rocks had 5 potentially borderline Admiral level pirates on the same ship, some of which later became Yonko. We know Big Mom was very active in her prime during Roger's era as well. The marines might not have been the organization they are now in the post Akainu/Vegapunk era, but why do the top tiers have to be weaker? If anything, that just means Garp and Sengoku were both that strong to be carrying the organization on their backs.


VileNotice said:


> If the admirals were always close to each other than Roger would have named two others alongside Sengoku. As I said, everything points to Garp and Sengoku being the strongest marines at the time but that doesn't make featless prime Sengoku stronger than the current strongest creature.


Garp and Sengoku are a duo, always grouped together and that's why they were mentioned. They rose up the ranks together, led the Marines together, and stood shoulder to shoulder in defence of Marineford against Shiki. Roger shouted both of them out, and Sengoku and Garp also fought the BB Pirates together, and performed about the same. Hell, it was Sengoku who managed to restrain Garp when the latter was going after Akainu. Portrayal suggests they have been quite close for several decades. He was also in the same group of contemporaries as Roger, WB, Garp, Rayleigh, Shiki, etc.

Kaido has had similar portrayal in his prime, relative to the old legends. However, in his young days, he was clearly inferior. Before reaching his prime, he was equal or slightly inferior to Oden, who was thrashed by Roger. We also know that Kaido suffered defeats and captures to other powerful pirates as well as the Marines many times.

In other words, a pre-Yonko Kaido wasn't a threat to Roger, and nothing even suggests that the current version is even on that level, either.


VileNotice said:


> Prime Garp being a slight bit stronger than Kaido makes sense to me, that means he and Kaido both would defeat prime Sengoku highish diff.


Yeah, but why would the same not apply to Sengoku if he was grouped so closely together with Garp?


VileNotice said:


> If the only thing we knew about prime Garp was that quote then yes he and prime Sengoku would be comparable. But Garp is the one with the recorded rivalry with Roger, and he's the one who took down Rocks.



Garp didn't take down Rocks alone, it was a team effort, and Roger was the one who was said to have been Rocks' greatest enemy. Sengoku was also the marine rival to Whitebeard. Oda has yet to show us these encounters, but it's implied they have matched each other many times, just as all the old legends did against each other. The only reason we haven't seen a Prime Sengoku fight and why he's featless, is because Oda likes showing the previous era bit by bit. We didn't even know what Roger or Primebeard would've looked like in a fight until Wano. Sengoku is only featless because his time to show what he was capable of, hasn't come.


VileNotice said:


> Sengoku was a better leader yet not as strong, that's always been his relationship to Garp.


Fair, but to your other point about the C3 or current admirals, we gotta remember that an _older _Sengoku past his prime, was still the Fleet Admiral and the leader of the C3 and marines as a whole. Of course, in sheer combat ability, the C3 were the cream of the crop and superior. However, it's really not hard to envision Sengoku being stronger than them some 25-30 + years ago, in his prime, especially if he was fighting against the likes of Whitebeard, Roger, and Rayleigh, in their primes.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Strobacaxi (Mar 15, 2021)

EoS BB => Prime Garp > Current Yonko > Prime Sengoku ~ Current Akainu > C3


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## Beast (Mar 15, 2021)

Sloan said:


> Scan implying or showing Sengoku has CoC Haki?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## oiety (Mar 16, 2021)

Roger=Primebeard=Prime Garp>Prime Sengoku~Kaido~Big Mom~Akainu>=Prime Ray

Gonna go with Sengoku extreme diff or draw.


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## Sherlōck (Mar 17, 2021)

Sengoku was the rival of Shiki, one of the Monster Pirate Trio of that time. 

At best Laidou is as strong as Shiki was. Extreme difficulty fight either way.

Reactions: Like 1


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## nmwn93 (Mar 17, 2021)

Nikseng said:


> Sengoku has never been put to Roger's level lol
> 
> OT : Kaido with a solid high diff. Might be forced to hybrid.


he certainly has. you may not RESPECT the way he has been but he definitely has. one, he and garp are usually mentioned as equals, or honestly, is enough.  roger says in the anime if you want to Catch me send sengoku or garp.... in the manga he says something similar. what more do you need?

Reactions: Like 1


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## nmwn93 (Mar 17, 2021)

the way the high admirals are slept on vs the way pirates are wanked on this forum, MAKES ME DIZZY!!!


im taking prime sengoku. 100 percent of the time. i am currentely watching a prime kaido have to use his hybrid form to beat luffy, zoro, kidd, killer and law. whilst beside another yonko. nd the man was struggling. i saw an old sengoku fight the entire bb crew on his own.  BB that was free to do is worst whist sengoku had to hold back as to preserve the island itself .  that was all in his non hybrid form. as an old man sengoku tactically   had the whitebeard pirates DEAD TO RIGHTS. whitebeard and his whole fleet would have died in the encircling walls.

sengokus hybrid is likely ridiculous, kaido has not impressed me for real. im taking big budda. high diff at most

Reactions: Like 5 | Agree 1


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## Mihawk (Mar 17, 2021)

This is neat. Safe to say that MF Sengoku was Admiral level.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## GreenEggsAHam (Mar 17, 2021)

Strobacaxi said:


> =


current yonko are not above sengoku you crazy! sengoku was whitebeard marine counterpart


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## JustSumGuy (Mar 18, 2021)

Sengoku is featless but he’s a dude mentioned in the same breath as Garp by the literal strongest character in this show.

So here’s the thing, Kaido might be weaker than Oden. But I definitely, 100% think Sengoku would mop Oden so I’m going with Prime Sengoku.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## nmwn93 (Mar 18, 2021)

YonkoDrippy said:


> Kaido wins. Sengoku isn’t Roger or Garps Lvl. So he’s losing here


so untrue. hes easily on that level. easily! by every metric available

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShadoLord (Mar 18, 2021)

both are pretty trash

Laido and his unremarkable records and Sengoku who didn't even kill a horse with his shockwave.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## VileNotice (Mar 18, 2021)

nmwn93 said:


> so untrue. hes easily on that level. easily! by every metric available


No he isn't. All of his strength-related hype is by being attached to Garp. That doesn't give him all of Garp's accomplishments.


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## nmwn93 (Mar 19, 2021)

VileNotice said:


> No he isn't. All of his strength-related hype is by being attached to Garp. That doesn't give him all of Garp's accomplishments.


true my friend i dont mean that it gives him garp's accomplishments. i am saying by the same lore and hype garp gets sengoku GETS. he is confirmed a user of all 3 types of haki, whitebeard was more than weary of sengoku in marine ford. sengoku who, with strategy ,  had whitebeard pirates dead to rights at marine ford. they all would have died in that bay in the encircling walls if luffy wasn't there,


sengoku stopped shiki with garp. a 2 on 1 that leveled half of marine ford, the same marineford that Marines as powerful as Garp and sengoku probably can't  go all out in, because they will destroy the island.

roger says himself if you want to catch him you have to bring garp or sengoku.

The people sengoku was clashing with back then are the people kaido got  hurt by rox, roger, white beard, shiki, hell sengoku was supposed to work the edd war situation ALONE. garp TAGGED ALONG...... and sengoku held garp doen after ace was killed. what more do you need? sengoku in his prime was dealing with people that are stronger than kaido we  see now.. i dont see sengoku taking half the ls kaido is taking against the  supernova on the roof and im talking right now in his old age. theres a difference between whats been obviously hinted to and confirmed vs what you chose to acknowledge yourself personally.


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## Captain Altintop (Mar 19, 2021)

Excellent pick and  fight. This could go either way extreme diff. 

Sengoku ~ Kaido and both would extreme (mid-high) diff. Rayleigh.


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## Van Basten (Mar 31, 2021)

Clash of the world’s strongest creatures.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Germa 66 (Jan 6, 2023)

Gotta show love to Sengoku in hopes he shows up to throw down.

* “If you wanna catch me send Garp or Sengoku” - Gol D. Roger*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Saturday at 2:09 AM)

Sengoku high difficulty is my guess. Kaido and Big Mom never became strong enough to beat any of the heavy hitters from their youth. Roger, Whitebeard, Garp, Rayleigh and Sengoku are all a level beyond them.

Reactions: Like 1 | Neutral 1


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## Kagutsutchi (Saturday at 2:53 AM)

I'd put Kaido above Sengoku

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Raid3r2010 (Saturday at 3:00 AM)

Kaido should be stronger than Sengoku by feats alone however Prime Garp would been a better match but I Will still GO with Kaido extreme difficulty. 

Vs Sengoku, very high diff
Vs Garp in his prime, extreme diff


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## Ludi (Saturday at 3:37 AM)

Probably prime Sengoku

Reactions: Like 2


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## Delta Shell (Saturday at 6:33 AM)

Sengoku out here failing to hurt Gomu Gomu No Fussen.

Roger probably asked for him to laugh at his goat.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## TheWiggian (Saturday at 6:47 AM)

Delta Shell said:


> Sengoku out here failing to hurt Gomu Gomu No Fussen.
> 
> Roger probably asked for him to laugh at his goat.



He probably asked for Sengoku to have a death battle against him while Ray extreme diffs Sengoku's goat.

Reactions: Funny 5


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 5:59 AM)

Kaido 8/10 diff

Sengoku never caught nor defeated a single Great Pirate solo to our knowledge meanwhile Kaido is on record as confirmed stronger than at least 5 of them in 1v1. He gets benefit.

I don't see Sengoku beating Shanks nor Shiki solo like Kaido can.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Yuji (Sunday at 6:10 AM)

low-mid diff for kaido, Sengoku has no real feats that could make him a threat. He also got put in bandages during a 2v1 against the weakest yonko.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Mihawk (Sunday at 6:59 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido 8/10 diff
> 
> Sengoku never caught nor defeated a single Great Pirate solo to our knowledge meanwhile Kaido is on record as confirmed stronger than at least 5 of them in 1v1. He gets benefit.
> 
> I don't see Sengoku beating Shanks nor Shiki solo like Kaido can.


As Pimps said 

Kaido and Big Mom never beat any of the legends either. There is no benefit of a doubt here.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 7:15 AM)

Mihawk said:


> As Pimps said
> 
> Kaido and Big Mom never beat any of the legends either. There is no benefit of a doubt here.


Kaido beat Oden & G4 Luffy while heavily disadvantaged...

There is, Kaido is CONFIRMED stronger than some Great Pirates. Sengoku is not.


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 7:22 AM)

One that has two feats at most and seems more antifeats vs one that has abundant feats and screen time.

My favorites are the marines but there is nothing to discuss here and let the characters have more feats to know something and leave the headcanon.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 7:23 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> One that has two feats at most and seems more antifeats vs one that has abundant feats and screen time.
> 
> My favorites are the marines but there is nothing to discuss here and let the characters have more feats to know something and leave the headcanon.



Agree. Sengoku > Kaido /thread.

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Dislike 1


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 7:26 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Agree. Sengoku > Kaido /thread.


If being a troll makes you happy go ahead but don't tag me to waste time

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Funny 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 7:28 AM)

Kaido bonks Sengoku so hard, he dies and reincarnates as Son Goku in Dragonball

Reactions: Funny 4


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 7:38 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> If being a troll makes you happy go ahead but don't tag me to waste time



You don't need to be so rude bro


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 7:41 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> You don't need to be so rude bro


It's not being rude lol  

I really like Sengoku but to be honest I can't play blind no matter how much I wanted to with Kaido. The mf has it all.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 7:43 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> It's not being rude lol
> 
> I really like Sengoku but to be honest I can't play blind no matter how much I wanted to with Kaido. The mf has it all.



If he has it all why didn't he become the PK?


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 7:47 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> If he has it all why didn't he become the PK?



Because he was a villain / antagonist who had to fulfill a role and he was not the main character?

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 7:49 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Because he was a villain / antagonist who had to fulfill a role and he was not the main character?



Roger was not the MC and he had it all


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 7:50 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Roger was not the MC and he had it all


Before Luffy's story began, Roger was already in hell.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 8:00 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Before Luffy's story began, Roger was already in hell.



And?


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:05 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> And?


Roger did not have the plot or the mc against him. 

And what we know so far about Roger is that he became a pirate king because Oden existed and because the world government began to call him that. 

Whom did he defeat to be king of the pirates? The only thing we know is that together with Garp they defeated the rocks pirates many years before he came to Laughtale. 

So what does being king of the pirates in Roger's era mean with what we know so far?

Reactions: Agree 3


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 8:16 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Roger did not have the plot or the mc against him.
> 
> And what we know so far about Roger is that he became a pirate king because Oden existed and because the world government began to call him that.
> 
> ...



Who did Kaido defeat?


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## Ludi (Sunday at 8:18 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Who did Kaido defeat?


He nearly killed Kinemon and Bowlerhatman

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:19 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido beat Oden & G4 Luffy while heavily disadvantaged...
> 
> There is, Kaido is CONFIRMED stronger than some Great Pirates. Sengoku is not.


Since when are Oden and G4 Luffy legends?

Kaido wasn’t really confirmed stronger than anyone of note. He was stronger than Big Mom, but that wasn’t confirmed just heavily implied.


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:20 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Who did Kaido defeat?


He knocked out the mc 3 or 4 times in the same fight and it can be said that he even killed him with the damage that Luffy is supposed to be insanely resistant. But what does it have to do with it? 

And who did Roger defeat to be king of the pirates? The only thing he did as far as we know is run away from Big mom and beg WB to give him Oden.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:21 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> He knocked out the mc 3 or 4 times in the same fight and it can be said that he even killed him with the damage that Luffy is supposed to be insanely resistant. But what does it have to do with it?
> 
> And who did Roger defeat to be king of the pirates? The only thing he did as far as we know is run away from Big mom and beg WB to give him Oden.


Roger didn’t need to prove himself, everyone knew he was the strongest alongside Whitebeard.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:25 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Roger didn’t need to prove himself, everyone knew he was the strongest alongside Whitebeard.



Luffy the mc in base form did what Roger and WB did in their prime

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:26 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Luffy the mc in base form did what Roger and WB did in their prime


How do you know when Roger and Whitebeard could just manage sky splitting? You don’t.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 8:27 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Since when are Oden and G4 Luffy legends?
> 
> Kaido wasn’t really confirmed stronger than anyone of note. He was stronger than Big Mom, but that wasn’t confirmed just heavily implied.


I said Great Pirates. They are both Great Pirates & Oden? Lmao really ODEN!?

He's confirmed stronger than Shanks as the WSP by Killer who also met Shanks & WSC in Databooks. Kaido himself fought Shanks & considers himself superior to the extent he didn't feel threatened by him when talking to Luffy about how it's boring being the strongest.

Oda in SBS when asked of Akainu's strength immediately using Kaido as the pinnacle of power & refers to him as the WSC in verse.

Those things take priority over fans headcanon.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 8:28 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> How do you know when Roger and Whitebeard could just manage sky splitting? You don’t.


How do you know Luffy & Kaido could just manage sky splitting? You don't.


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:30 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> How do you know when Roger and Whitebeard could just manage sky splitting? You don’t.


And do you know? LOL 
At least I give you evidence. You say "everyone knows that Roger was the strongest" 

What we readers know: Roger did not defeat anyone relevant in his last year towards laughtale and he arrived there thanks to Oden and he was named king of the pirates because that is what the world government called him.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 8:32 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Kaido bonks Sengoku so hard, he dies and reincarnates as Son Goku in Dragonball


Like the dude's fruit can't even hurt Pre-TS Luffy & BB lmao wtf is it gonna do to Kaido? His Haki alone sure ain't beating Kaido.

Kaido has better physical strength, stamina, endurance, durability, speed, abilities, attack potency, area of effect, & observation (feats) to Sengoku's POTENTIAL superior conquers & armament Haki.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:42 AM)

ShWanks said:


> I said Great Pirates. They are both Great Pirates & Oden? Lmao really ODEN!?
> 
> He's confirmed stronger than Shanks as the WSP by Killer who also met Shanks & WSC in Databooks. Kaido himself fought Shanks & considers himself superior to the extent he didn't feel threatened by him when talking to Luffy about how it's boring being the strongest.
> 
> ...


The post you were replying to used the phrase legends, not great pirates. You also did not use the phrase great pirates in your response to Mihawk, you just immediately referenced G4 Luffy and Oden when he mentioned legends. 

He isn't confirmed stronger than Shanks. Killers words are not infallible. Kaido is the strongest nonhuman, which doesn't mean much in a world dominated by humans.


ShWanks said:


> How do you know Luffy & Kaido could just manage sky splitting? You don't.


I didn't say they could 'just manage' sky splitting. If I did say that, please show me the post so I can correct it. Otherwise, please don't just put words in my mouth and pretend you have an argument. 


Gensui Sakazuki said:


> And do you know? LOL
> At least I give you evidence. You say "everyone knows that Roger was the strongest"
> 
> What we readers know: Roger did not defeat anyone relevant in his last year towards laughtale and he arrived there thanks to Oden and he was named king of the pirates because that is what the world government called him.


If you could find the post of main where I claimed I knew when Roger and Whitebeard could start making the sky split, I would appreciate it. Since you seem to love putting words in my mouth. The pint is, you compared Luffy making the sky split vs Roger doing so as ifwhen Oden saw him doing so was the first time he did so. Roger and Newgate had obviously been capable of that long, long  before Oden came along. 

It doesn't matter who Roger did or didn't defeat in his final year, he was already the confirmed strongest alongside Newgate. If he didn't fight anyone in that final year it was because no one dared. As for getting Oden's help, Luffy himself had admitted as early as Arlong Park that he can't do a lot of things and needs the helps of others to accomplish his goal. Luffy is only going to become Pirate King because of the help of those around him, same with Roger and that isn't a point of shame. Quite the opposite, it shows his ability to draw people in which is a far more useful skill than just being able to beat everyone up (although he could do both).

Reactions: Like 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 8:42 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> He knocked out the mc 3 or 4 times in the same fight and it can be said that he even killed him with the damage that Luffy is supposed to be insanely resistant. But what does it have to do with it?
> 
> And who did Roger defeat to be king of the pirates? The only thing he did as far as we know is run away from Big mom and beg WB to give him Oden.



Roger wasn't stopped by anyone and became the PK, same can't be said about Kaido. 



Bending the clouds and ocean through a conqueror's clash without DF boost to the point of conqueror's leaking towards the atmosphere >>> the little cloud dispersing Luffy and Kaido did. 



They didn't even instantly open up

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:42 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Like the dude's fruit can't even hurt Pre-TS Luffy & BB lmao wtf is it gonna do to Kaido? His Haki alone sure ain't beating Kaido.
> 
> Kaido has better physical strength, stamina, endurance, durability, speed, abilities, attack potency, area of effect, & observation (feats) to Sengoku's POTENTIAL superior conquers & armament Haki.


You think Sengoku can't casually hurt pre-TS Luffy?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:46 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Roger wasn't stopped by anyone and became the PK,


Who are everyone? 

WB who was not interested? 

Shiki who lost all his military power in a storm where it is implied that Roger was going to suffer a crushing defeat? 

Rocks? It hadn't even existed when Roger met Oden.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:47 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Who are everyone?
> 
> WB who was not interested?
> 
> ...


What’s your agenda here? Are you seriously trying to downplay Roger’s strength?

Reactions: GODA 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 8:48 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> You think Sengoku can't casually hurt pre-TS Luffy?


No, I think he DID NOT hurt pre-TS Luffy & that his fruit was tanked by Pre-TS BB who feels twice the pain due to Yami.

If BB can take it that well while OFFGUARD then what do you think Base Kaido is gonna do let alone Hybrid?


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 8:49 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Who are everyone?
> 
> WB who was not interested?
> 
> ...



Shiki, Big Mom, he took WB's brother, Rocks, Navy, WG 

All organisations and crews Kaido hid from in Wano


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 8:50 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> What’s your agenda here? Are you seriously trying to downplay Roger’s strength?


No, he's trying to get you to stop downplaying Kaido's & all the other Great Pirates by insinuating Roger was just so much stronger when he never even defeated a single one nor was he ever stated stronger than either of them. Oden himself implied Kaido age 39 was as strong as Roger's equal Primebeard. Shiki is stated as strong as Roger, Oden put himself on that level etc.


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 8:50 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> What’s your agenda here? Are you seriously trying to downplay Roger’s strength?


Agenda of what? 

If you come here to prove that Sengoku > Kaido, do it with the evidence and not with things like Roger was the king of pirates and that's why Sengoku > Kaido

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The crazy hacker (Sunday at 8:51 AM)

Kaido extreme diff for now. I have Sengoku around Prime Rayleigh and Mihawk.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:55 AM)

ShWanks said:


> No, I think he DID NOT hurt pre-TS Luffy & that his fruit was tanked by Pre-TS BB who feels twice the pain due to Yami.
> 
> If BB can take it that well while OFFGUARD then what do you think Base Kaido is gonna do let alone Hybrid?


So, by your logic Luffy can also hurt Garp pre-TS? Oda had strong people hold back against Luffy and not sure why you expected sengoku to casually oneshot Blackbeard or whatever. Strange. 


ShWanks said:


> No, he's trying to get you to stop downplaying Kaido's & all the other Great Pirates by insinuating Roger was just so much stronger when he never even defeated a single one nor was he ever stated stronger than either of them. Oden himself implied Kaido age 39 was as strong as Roger's equal Primebeard. Shiki is stated as strong as Roger, Oden put himself on that level etc.


Roger was that much stronger than everyone except Newgate. If anyone thinks otherwise I don't know what to say, it's probably the most obvious fact in the manga.


Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Agenda of what?
> 
> If you come here to prove that Sengoku > Kaido, do it with the evidence and not with things like Roger was the king of pirates and that's why Sengoku > Kaido


You could have easily said Sengoku merely being in the same era doesn't necesitate he is stronger than Kaido, which I would agree with, but you went the extreme of downplaying Roger as if he wouldn't make minced meat of Kaido with one eye closed. Come on now.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 9:01 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Shiki, Big Mom, he took WB's brother, Rocks, Navy, WG
> 
> All organisations and crews Kaido hid from in Wano




Without Oden he would never have made it to Laughtale. Without Laughtale he had never been named by his enemies as a pirate king. 

Being a pirate king in Roger's era as far as we know it wasn't some strength it was thanks to Oden.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 9:03 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> Without Oden he would never have made it to Laughtale. Without Laughtale he had never been named by his enemies as a pirate king.
> 
> Being a pirate king in Roger's era as far as we know it wasn't some strength it was thanks to Oden.



Oden isn't alive anymore and there still is going to be a new pirate king ^^


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:05 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> as if he wouldn't make minced meat of Kaido with one eye closed. Come on now.


Maybe apprentice Kaido.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:05 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> So, by your logic Luffy can also hurt Garp pre-TS? Oda had strong people hold back against Luffy and not sure why you expected sengoku to casually oneshot Blackbeard or whatever. Strange.
> 
> Roger was that much stronger than everyone except Newgate. If anyone thinks otherwise I don't know what to say, it's probably the most obvious fact in the manga.
> 
> You could have easily said Sengoku merely being in the same era doesn't necesitate he is stronger than Kaido, which I would agree with, but you went the extreme of downplaying Roger as if he wouldn't make minced meat of Kaido with one eye closed. Come on now.


No, by my logic, Sengoku failed to hurt Luffy when he wanted to. That's a fact. That's all I'm saying. His fruit also did miniscule damage to an offguard Pre-TS BB to the point he laughed at him, called him old, weak, & said he couldn't stop him. The same BB who takes double the damage due to his fruit.

From that alone, you need to explain how the hell is Sengoku gonna kill Kaido who's stated in Databooks to be unkillable by everyone before G5 + magma pit arrived.

Where is this much stronger thing coming from? Kaido wasn't even near his prime during Roger's Era so that's another bad take. Even then, Oden who knows both Roger & Whitebeard's true strength better than any fan does, directly compared Kaido to Primebeard & by extension Roger's lvl himself.

Kaido himself doesn't even consider Roger superior to him combat wise and he's all about power & strength.

I'm in no way shape or form downplaying Roger. You're overhyping him while downplaying his peers who held the same Great Pirate title as him before he found the One Piece. Which he only found due to begging WB for Oden. A luxury no other Great Pirate had.

You guys love masking Roger wank & gaslighting others for "downplay".
He is NOT much stronger than Kaido nor was WB for that matter because Oden himself disagrees with that premise & he's the most accurate source in the manga when comparing Kaido, Roger, & WB.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:06 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Oden isn't alive anymore and there still is going to be a new pirate king ^^


One word. Robin.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:12 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> One word. Robin.


Like why are they feigning ignorance at this fact? Both Luffy & Roger have something no other Great Pirate had, a Poneglyph translator.


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 9:13 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> you went the extreme of downplaying Roger


For arguing with the evidence?lol



Pimp of Pimps said:


> as if he wouldn't make minced meat of Kaido with one eye closed. Come on now.


Talking about downplaying and agendas lmao

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 9:13 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> One word. Robin.



What stops Kaido from getting someone like Robin, she is world renowned   

Even Big Mom had an alternative

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:15 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> For arguing with the evidence?lol
> 
> 
> Talking about downplaying and agendas lmao


The cognitive dissonance is at an all-tike high.

It's insane to think ANYONE is much stronger than a Yonko.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:16 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> What stops Kaido from getting someone like Robin, she is world renowned
> 
> Even Big Mom had an alternative


Did BM have someone who could read Poneglyphs? Yes or No?


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 9:17 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Did BM have someone who could read Poneglyphs? Yes or No?



Yes, the ability was not unlocked yet before she got defeated

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Gensui Sakazuki (Sunday at 9:24 AM)

ShWanks said:


> The cognitive dissonance is at an all-tike high.
> 
> It's insane to think ANYONE is much stronger than a Yonko.



And when there is this form and all the Kaido's feats with ACoC, there is someone saying that a character can turn Kaido into mincemeat and more without having the evidence other than an agenda and downplaying against Kaido.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 2


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:28 AM)

Gensui Sakazuki said:


> And when there is this form and all the Kaido's feats with ACoC, there is someone saying that a character can turn Kaido into mincemeat and more without having the evidence other than an agenda and downplaying against Kaido.


Exactly, Roger hasn't even shown an attack on this level to begin with (not that he doesn't have one) & even then magma was needed to write Kaido out of the story or else his Zoan would just respawn him like Luffy, etc.

G5 Luffy literally is one of the VERY few characters who can counter FDD. You need to have either Gura Fruit or Advanced Ryou and Conquerors Haki at Great Pirate lvl as well as the physical strength of a Giant G5 Luffy to even beat it which no other character has shown especially considering Kaido is physically the strongest character in the series barring G5 Luffy.


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 9:32 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Exactly, Roger hasn't even shown an attack on this level to begin with (not that he doesn't have one) & even then magma was needed to write Kaido out of the story or else his Zoan would just respawn him like Luffy, etc.
> 
> G5 Luffy literally is one of the VERY few characters who can counter FDD. You need to have either Gura Fruit or Advanced Ryou and Conquerors Haki at Great Pirate lvl as well as the physical strength of a Giant G5 Luffy to even beat it which no other character has shown especially considering Kaido is physically the strongest character in the series barring G5 Luffy.


Shanks' 5g level wifi haki can blow out Kaido like a candle fire


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 9:34 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> Shanks' 5g level wifi haki can blow out Kaido like a candle fire



Despite the torch ability Kaido decided to run for his life from someone who is canonically a dollar store Roger when he tried to go to MF


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 9:36 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Despite the torch ability Kaido decided to run for his life from someone who is canonically a dollar store Roger when he tried to go to MF


exactly

and people think Kaido can fuck with a stronger Shanks in Roger

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:37 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> Shanks' 5g level wifi haki can blow out Kaido like a candle fire


I believe yes, Shanks can push him to the highest of high diff but even KAIDO acknowledges that Shanks was no threat to defeating him. Kaido fought him yet still tells Luffy no one can stop him & considers it boring because he has no equal. Killer who met Shanks also believes Kaido to be stronger. Databooks & Oda also refer to Kaido as the Strongest Creature which includes Shanks. Databooks also state no one could kill Kaido.

That takes presence over my bias for Shanks for now.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 9:39 AM)

ShWanks said:


> I believe yes, Shanks can push him to the highest of high diff but even KAIDO acknowledges that Shanks was no threat to defeating him. Kaido fought him yet still tells Luffy no one can stop him & considers it boring because he has no equal. Killer who met Shanks also believes Kaido to be stronger.
> 
> That takes presence over my bias for Shanks for now.


Yet he ran like a bitch from Shanks. This is facts.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:41 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> Yet he ran like a bitch from Shanks. This is facts.


Kaido & King backed off from the Red Haired Pirates not Shanks.

The fact Kaido is on record surviving multiple handicap battles with Yonko Crews & Marines speaks to his individual strength. No other Top Tier can make that claim, not even Shiki who's stated to be comparable to Roger.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:44 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> Yet he ran like a bitch from Shanks. This is facts.


And then he told Luffy he hadn't seriously fought anyone in decades 
Fact that you're gonna pretend doesn't exist though

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:47 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> And then he told Luffy he hadn't seriously fought anyone in decades
> Fact that you're gonna pretend doesn't exist though


Kaido jobbed on Shanks, damn...

Reactions: Funny 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:47 AM)

OL: Shanks beat Kaido on the way to Marineford
Kaido: Here are 5 people who can FIGHT WITH me
*Shanks is present*
OL: I told you. Shanks is stronger than Kaido
Also Kaido: I haven't fought seriously IN DECADES
OL: Nope, didn't see that. Shanks is stronger cause he turned back Kaido who was with King only while he had his entire crew with him.

Genius!!!

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:49 AM)

But no seriously, that kind of pisses me off. Oda hyped Kaido beyond measure. I'm all for it until Shanks is used to do so...

Reactions: Like 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 9:50 AM)

Kaido didn't 'run' from Shanks, he just isn't stupid enough to face off against an Emperor and disrupt the balance before he got enough information to get to the final island and claim the title of Pirate King. Says nothing about who is stronger between Shanks and Kaido. If Kaido thought the alliance was strong enough to actually threaten him from the start he'd have probably done things very differently.

Reactions: Like 2


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:50 AM)

The only time people quote Kaido's famous "I haven't fought seriously in decades" is to shit on Big Mom, not knowing it also shits on Shanks but they won't acknowledge that.

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 9:50 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> And then he told Luffy he hadn't seriously fought anyone in decades
> Fact that you're gonna pretend doesn't exist though


This only proves Kaido is a fraud. He seeks a thrilling fight yet he doesn't when Shanks gives him a fight. He immediately turned around and fled when he had to face someone his own size.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:52 AM)

Why the hell would Kaido get into a death match with RHP with only King when his mission is to kill WB? 

Even had he defeated them by some miracle, he'd be in no shape to escape Marineford.


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 9:53 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido & King backed off from the Red Haired Pirates not Shanks.
> 
> The fact Kaido is on record surviving multiple handicap battles with Yonko Crews & Marines speaks to his individual strength. No other Top Tier can make that claim, not even Shiki who's stated to be comparable to Roger.



Doesn't stop you from shitting on Ryokugyu, yet for Kaido you feel offended?


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:55 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> The only time people quote Kaido's famous "I haven't fought seriously in decades" is to shit on Big Mom, not knowing it also shits on Shanks but they won't acknowledge that.


Yep exactly, some of these dudes are so damn biased it's insane.


ShadoLord said:


> This only proves Kaido is a fraud. He seeks a thrilling fight yet he doesn't when Shanks gives him a fight. He immediately turned around and fled when he had to face someone his own size.


Nope, Kaido is the ONE on ONE King. He's never ducked a 1v1 & has even fought Yonko with their Crews single-handedly & survived multiple times. 

Roger is more of a fraud by your definition as he never beat any of his competition directly in 1v1 besides maybe Shiki & even then he had luck on his side. Dude ducked BM.


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:57 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> Doesn't stop you from shitting on Ryokugyu, yet for Kaido you feel offended?


Don't try that. You know I specifically pointed out that it was NOT the RHP that made GB look pathetic. It was SHANKS & SHANKS alone. The HAKI is what put the fear of God into him not the crew.

Don't be disingenuous like that.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 9:57 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> This only proves Kaido is a fraud. He seeks a thrilling fight yet he doesn't when Shanks gives him a fight. He immediately turned around and fled when he had to face someone his own size.


Typical cope cause Kaido canonically didn't take his clash with Shanks seriously.
Of course Kaido is a fraud, but Shanks is a good guy for seeing the Gorosei. Oh, and stopping Kaido from seeing Whitebeard when the likelihood of Kaido helping WB at Marineford would've been high!!!


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 9:58 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Typical cope cause Kaido canonically didn't take his clash with Shanks seriously.
> Of course Kaido is a fraud, but Shanks is a good guy for seeing the Gorosei. Oh, and stopping Kaido from seeing Whitebeard when the likelihood of Kaido helping WB at Marineford would've been high!!!


Yeah Kaido probably wouldn't told WB "after we're done, you're next WB worororo!"


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:02 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Typical cope cause Kaido canonically didn't take his clash with Shanks seriously.
> Of course Kaido is a fraud, but Shanks is a good guy for seeing the Gorosei. Oh, and stopping Kaido from seeing Whitebeard when the likelihood of Kaido helping WB at Marineford would've been high!!!


Yet 

#1: he was afraid of facing him in a fight
#2: he still decided to put Shanks in his top 5 tier list

riiiiiight.


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 10:05 AM)

ShWanks said:


> *Don't try that.* You know I specifically pointed out that it was NOT the RHP that made GB look pathetic. It was SHANKS & SHANKS alone. The HAKI is what put the fear of God into him not the crew.
> 
> Don't be disingenuous like that.



What you wanna do about it?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:06 AM)

lets put it this way

1) they hadn't truly fought at sea hence Shanks arrived uninjured
2) Shanks probably shot out his wifi haki to deter Kaido
3) Kaido deems that enough to put him over Big Mom
4) Big Mom = Kaido

i think we can reasonably conclude Shanks > Kaido


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 10:07 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> Yet
> 
> #1: he was afraid of facing him in a fight
> #2: he still decided to put Shanks in his top 5 tier list
> ...


1. Kaido is not afraid of anyone in a fight. He's afraid of NOT getting a good fight. This is basic Kaido 101. And do tell me, who was Kaido afraid of facing?
2. He put Shanks in his list of people that could FIGHT him. How does that change the fact that Kaido didn't go serious on Shanks? 

Roger said "bring Garp or Sengoku"
I guess Garp and Sengoku are stronger than him cause he mentioned them, yeah?


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:09 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> 1. Kaido is not afraid of anyone in a fight. He's afraid of NOT getting a good fight. This is basic Kaido 101. And do tell me, who was Kaido afraid of facing?
> 2. He put Shanks in his list of people that could FIGHT him. How does that change the fact that Kaido didn't go serious on Shanks?
> 
> Roger said "bring Garp or Sengoku"
> I guess Garp and Sengoku are stronger than him cause he mentioned them, yeah?


1. Sadly, he ran from Shanks despite being given a good challenge.
2. Awww making up your own headcanon. It's too bad but the evidence is supporting me more than yours.


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 10:12 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> 1. Sadly, he ran from Shanks despite being given a good challenge.
> 2. Awww making up your own headcanon. It's too bad but the evidence is supporting me more than yours.



He says Kaido ran from RHP when he believes that apart from Shanks and maybe Beckman no one can even harm the guy seriously

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 10:12 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Maybe apprentice Kaido.


Delusional to think Roger would struggle THAT much against anyone alive. Roger would make Kaido look like a child. It's strange how people keep falling for the same hype traps over and over again. First it was Luffy post EL wouldn't struggle against anybody, then it was Doflamingo has to be Admiral level and now we've gotten to the stage where people think Roger wouldn't make Kaido look like a prepubescent child. 


ShWanks said:


> No, by my logic, Sengoku failed to hurt Luffy when he wanted to. That's a fact. That's all I'm saying. His fruit also did miniscule damage to an offguard Pre-TS BB to the point he laughed at him, called him old, weak, & said he couldn't stop him. The same BB who takes double the damage due to his fruit.
> 
> From that alone, you need to explain how the hell is Sengoku gonna kill Kaido who's stated in Databooks to be unkillable by everyone before G5 + magma pit arrived.
> 
> ...


No offense, but this is just a matter of you not knowing how to read Shounen. One Piece is not that complicated of a story, it is afterall still a Shounen despite subverting some tropes. Oda purposefully has people out of the league of the main characters hold back etc for no reason until the main characters are strong enough to actually and properly tango with them. Stop analysing the manga like it's a novel.

If you think Kaido didn't consider Roger superior to him combat wise that shows you are making things up to sit your agenda. That wasn't stated or implied. Roger and Whitebeard are going to be MUCH stronger than Kaido, Shanks etc. Been obvious for a long time ago.



Gensui Sakazuki said:


> For arguing with the evidence?lol
> 
> 
> Talking about downplaying and agendas lmao


You aren't arguing with evidence, you are downplaying someone very obviously stronger, by far, that anyone we have seen alive in this series thus far.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 10:13 AM)

ShWanks said:


> I believe yes, Shanks can push him to the highest of high diff but even *KAIDO acknowledges that Shanks was no threat to defeating him*. Kaido fought him yet still tells Luffy no one can stop him & considers it boring because he has no equal. Killer who met Shanks also believes Kaido to be stronger. Databooks & Oda also refer to Kaido as the Strongest Creature which includes Shanks. Databooks also state no one could kill Kaido.
> 
> That takes presence over my bias for Shanks for now.


Never happened.


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 10:13 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> lets put it this way
> 
> 1) they hadn't truly fought at sea hence Shanks arrived uninjured
> 2) Shanks probably shot out his wifi haki to deter Kaido
> ...


Let's put it this way

1. Kaido jobbed on Shanks and Shanks still didn't manage to do him any harm. Not a single scratch.
2. Pathetic headcanon. 
3. ...
4. It's "1 on 1, bet on Kaido. Land, sea or air, he's the strongest" not "bet on Kaido or Big Mom"
Killer said they were about to face the strongest Emperor in Kaido, not the strongest Emperors aside from Big Mom

I think we can conclude you've been reading Two Piece


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:15 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> He says Kaido ran from RHP when he believes that apart from Shanks and maybe Beckman no one can even harm the guy seriously


Agenda piece at its finest  

and gets mad at Greenbull

Reactions: Funny 3


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 10:17 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> 1. Sadly, he ran from Shanks despite being given a good challenge.
> 2. Awww making up your own headcanon. It's too bad but the evidence is supporting me more than yours.





TheWiggian said:


> He says Kaido ran from RHP when he believes that apart from Shanks and maybe Beckman no one can even harm the guy seriously


Ah yes. Because we obviously have not seen the impact of outside distractions when two people are clashing.
Didn't your boy Zoro almost die to nerfed Killer cause of distraction from a fodder fox?


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:20 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Let's put it this way
> 
> 1. Kaido jobbed on Shanks and Shanks still didn't manage to do him any harm. Not a single scratch.
> 2. Pathetic headcanon.
> ...


He got deterred with wifi 5g CoC haki. Unless ofc the mere sighting of the redhair gang immediately cause Kaido to flee ASAP. Up to you really. Then Shanks got his place in Kaido's tier list from that one encounter.


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## TheWiggian (Sunday at 10:24 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Ah yes. Because we obviously have not seen the impact of outside distractions when two people are clashing.
> Didn't your boy Zoro almost die to nerfed Killer cause of distraction from a fodder fox?



Zoro is Kaido now? Wow didn't expect you to be such a wanker, yeah almost a zoro tard like me.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## AnimePhanatic (Sunday at 10:28 AM)

ShadoLord said:


> He got deterred with wifi 5g CoC haki. Unless ofc the mere sighting of the redhair gang immediately cause Kaido to flee ASAP. Up to you really. Then Shanks got his place in Kaido's tier list from that one encounter.


You do realize that in Kaido's introduction, narrator explicitly tells us Kaido has been challenging other Emperors for years, right?
Prove that that's the only time in Kaido's career that he clashed with Shanks

Not to mention... Kaido jobbed on Shanks and Shanks still failed to do anything. Nothing you say or do is gonna change that fact.

Even in presumed death, this man is still causing tears. WSC indeed


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## ShadoLord (Sunday at 10:35 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> You do realize that in Kaido's introduction, narrator explicitly tells us Kaido has been challenging other Emperors for years, right?
> Prove that that's the only time in Kaido's career that he clashed with Shanks
> 
> Not to mention... Kaido jobbed on Shanks and Shanks still failed to do anything. Nothing you say or do is gonna change that fact.
> ...


Yet he has not met Big Mom for decades

or even Whitebeard for that matter ever since Oden died.

so which Emperor did he fought? care to list it? Shanks became emperor 6 years ago.


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## trance (Sunday at 10:38 AM)

what a fine sunday to browse the OL on

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Turrin (Sunday at 1:25 PM)

FA > Yonko


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## Seraphoenix (Sunday at 2:31 PM)

Kaido folds him comfortably.


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## Seraphoenix (Sunday at 2:33 PM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> The only time people quote Kaido's famous "I haven't fought seriously in decades" is to shit on Big Mom, not knowing it also shits on Shanks but they won't acknowledge that.


Where are you getting this “decades” thing from? Post the page.


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## arv993 (Sunday at 5:19 PM)

Kaido extreme diff


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## Mihawk (Sunday at 6:45 PM)

ShWanks said:


> Kaido beat Oden & G4 Luffy while heavily disadvantaged...


Saying he beat Oden straight up isnt the truth though. Oden was the one who was “heavily disadvantaged”

G4 Luffy was not a legend…


ShWanks said:


> There is, Kaido is CONFIRMED stronger than some Great Pirates. Sengoku is not.


He was never confirmed as anything of the sort


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## Vinsmoke31 (Sunday at 7:25 PM)

"In a 1 on 1 fight always bet on kaido" - Oda

Kaido wins high-extreme diff depending on if sengoku was comparable to garp or not

Reactions: Like 2


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## ~Avant~ (Sunday at 7:43 PM)

I put Fleet Admiral at Yonko tier, so best guess is a Stalemate.


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## Upendo Upendo no Mi (Sunday at 7:49 PM)

I like Sengoku more as a character, but unless he gets great feats or statements, I’ll put Kaido above him.

High to Extreme diff fight as Sengoku was in a very elite circle of fighters from the Old Era and nothing to scoff at.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 8:04 PM)

Vinsmoke31 said:


> "In a 1 on 1 fight always bet on kaido" - Oda
> 
> Kaido wins high-extreme diff depending on if sengoku was comparable to garp or not


There's a reason Oda framed that statement as 'the people say' as opposed to a title/statement of fact.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Sunday at 11:43 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> There's a reason Oda framed that statement as 'the people say' as opposed to a title/statement of fact.


No one SAYS bet on Sengoku tho. There's a reason Oda even includes it for Kaido.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 11:44 PM)

ShWanks said:


> No one SAYS bet on Sengoku tho. There's a reason Oda even includes it for Kaido.


The reason is because Oda hypes up Luffy’s future enemies.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Seraphoenix (Sunday at 11:54 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> There's a reason Oda framed that statement as 'the people say' as opposed to a title/statement of fact.


THere are no statements of fact for any titles. They are in-verse perceptions, nothing more.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Sunday at 11:56 PM)

Seraphoenix said:


> THere are no statements of fact for any titles. They are in-verse perceptions, nothing more.


Nope, titles within narrator boxes are statements of facts.


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## Seraphoenix (Monday at 12:39 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Nope, titles within narrator boxes are statements of facts.


No, they aren't. Narrator boxes are still the in-verse perception. That's why Demaro Black isn't Monkey D. Luffy, and Momo isn't Kinemon's son. This is a common mistake among newbie readers. Oda himself has said he doesn't even want the reader to realise there is an author.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## JayK (Monday at 1:30 AM)

I have yet to see those amazing feats of Kaido.

They are probably in Two Pieces.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sherlōck (Monday at 7:44 AM)

AnimePhanatic said:


> Killer said they were about to face the strongest Emperor in Kaido, not the strongest Emperors aside from Big Mom


Killer said "alleged" strongest pirate.

A rumour, not fact.

And this was after he & his captain was beaten by Kaidou.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Monday at 8:07 AM)

Seraphoenix said:


> No, they aren't. Narrator boxes are still the in-verse perception. That's why Demaro Black isn't Monkey D. Luffy, and Momo isn't Kinemon's son. This is a common mistake among newbie readers. Oda himself has said he doesn't even want the reader to realise there is an author.


That’s incorrect. The narrator in One Piece is able to tell us details that the world at large doesn’t know including sometimes the future such as the fact that Momonosuke will known as the ‘Great Shogun’ in the future. In general, like most works of fiction, the words of the narrator is taken as fact with this sometimes being subverted but that is the exception not the norm. In the case of Demalo Black, it was obvious he wasn’t our Luffy and that was the name he was going by. With Momonosuke there were already hints he wasn’t Kinemon’s son, but yes the narration box did misguide us in this instance.

In the case of titles etc though you’d need something very obvious to debunk a title given in a narrator box because, as I said earlier, they are not simply what the OP world at large thinks but words from an actual narrator.


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## Seraphoenix (Monday at 8:11 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> That’s incorrect. The narrator in One Piece is able to tell us details that the world at large doesn’t know including sometimes the future such as the fact that Momonosuke will known as the ‘Great Shogun’ in the future. In general, like most works of fiction, the words of the narrator is taken as fact with this sometimes being subverted but that is the exception not the norm. In the case of Demalo Black, it was obvious he wasn’t our Luffy and that was the name he was going by. With Momonosuke there were already hints he wasn’t Kinemon’s son, but yes the narration box did misguide us in this instance.
> 
> In the case of titles etc though you’d need something very obvious to debunk a title given in a narrator box because, as I said earlier, they are not simply what the OP world at large thinks but words from an actual narrator.


The fact that Demaro Black isn't Luffy means that the narrator isn't making statements of fact. They are just presenting an in-verse perception. Talking about future events doesn't change that. Moreover, as I said, Oda has said he doesn't want people to think there is an author, which is why he removed author blurbs, so you don't have any statements of fact as the author outright rejects the concept.

Titles are just the in-verse perception. The narrator didn't tell the OP world that Mihawk is the WSS. He has that reputation. Whenever he is referred to as such, reference is being made not to some objective fact about him being WSS in reality, but rather that the in-verse perception is that he has that title.

Oda isn't such a hack author that he puts in statements of fact. That's dogshit writing. You write a story and people interpret your meaning. You don't spoonfeed meaning.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Monday at 8:19 AM)

Seraphoenix said:


> The fact that Demaro Black isn't Luffy means that the narrator isn't making statements of fact. They are just presenting an in-verse perception. Talking about future events doesn't change that. Moreover, as I said, Oda has said he doesn't want people to think there is an author, which is why he removed author blurbs, so you don't have any statements of fact as the author outright rejects the concept.
> 
> Titles are just the in-verse perception. The narrator didn't tell the OP world that Mihawk is the WSS. He has that reputation. Whenever he is referred to as such, reference is being made not to some objective fact about him being WSS in reality, but rather that the in-verse perception is that he has that title.
> 
> Oda isn't such a hack author that he puts in statements of fact. That's dogshit writing. You write a story and people interpret your meaning. You don't spoonfeed meaning.


What can I say except that you've been reading the manga incorrectly all this time. The narration boxes are not an 'in-universe' perception, as they very clearly contain information that people in the universe wouldn't now such as the future, they are statement of a narration which are taken as an authority. Sometimes that is subverted, but that is rare and we need a reason to think what was stated in a narration box isn't correct. If the narration boxes were just an in-universe perception, something like Whitebeard's title wouldn't be included because many people were doubting him being the strongest due to his age etc.


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## Raid3r2010 (Monday at 10:20 AM)

This got too philosophycal all of a sudden.U'd put Heidegger to shame.

Btw,if anyone wanna start reading philosophy that's a bad move.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## MYJC (Monday at 7:00 PM)

"In a 1 on 1 fight always bet on kaido" - Oda


I don't recall anybody ever mentioning an exception for Sengoku. Kaido wins high diff.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Monday at 7:01 PM)

MYJC said:


> "In a 1 on 1 fight always bet on kaido" - Oda
> 
> 
> I don't recall anybody ever mentioning an exception for Sengoku. Kaido wins high diff.


Oda didn’t say that.


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## Shunsuiju (Monday at 7:59 PM)

Sengoku sons him

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1 | Dislike 1


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## savior2005 (Monday at 8:35 PM)

I'd give it to Kaido. He seems to be the strongest of his generation.

I think that the only three from the old gen who could beat Kaido are Roger, Primebeard, and Garp.

I'd (very slightly) favor Kaido over the likes of Prime Sengoku, Rayleigh, Big Mom, and Shiki.


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## kingbros (Tuesday at 2:56 AM)

so people heres main consensus of garp and sengoku is that they rival Roger


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## JayK (Tuesday at 3:13 AM)

and the general consensus for people thinking Laido wins is absolutely nothing cause his feats are pathetic

Reactions: Neutral 1 | Tier Specialist 1


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## ShWanks (Tuesday at 3:47 AM)

Seraphoenix said:


> THere are no statements of fact for any titles. They are in-verse perceptions, nothing more.


Except Kaido. Oda himself referred to Kaido as the "strongest creature" when asked of Akainu's strength.


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## ShWanks (Tuesday at 3:47 AM)

kingbros said:


> so people heres main consensus of garp and sengoku is that they rival Roger


It's just Kaido hate


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## TheWiggian (Tuesday at 8:38 AM)

So much Sengoku hate.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sherlōck (Tuesday at 8:47 AM)

TheWiggian said:


> So much Sengoku hate.



It's Admiral hate.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## arv993 (Tuesday at 9:00 AM)

Admirals are usually the weakest top tiers. Most people have the right to be skeptical

Reactions: Agree 1


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## God sl4yer (Tuesday at 9:01 AM)

Sherlōck said:


> It's Admiral hate.


its marine hate


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## Pimp of Pimps (Tuesday at 9:13 AM)

ShWanks said:


> Except Kaido. Oda himself referred to Kaido as the "strongest creature" when asked of Akainu's strength.


Doesn't really matter since Sengoku is not a creature.


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## Mihawk (Tuesday at 9:08 PM)

Mihawk said:


> Sick match up.
> 
> Going with Prime Sengoku. He was shown plenty respect by the 2 WSM, and stood shoulder to shoulder with Garp as the face of the Marines for that period, as an Admiral in Roger/WB's era . Even Whitebeard included him amongst his peers, and Roger wanted to fight him as well as Garp.
> 
> I just think that Garp, Kong, and Sengoku had to have been some monsters in their era, and could definitely take on today's Yonko.



To add on to my take 2 years ago...Prime Sengoku is likely on Kaido's level.

Whether he can beat him is a different story, but he has the tools to fight him on equal standing. Being a Mythical Zoan in his prime and a confirmed Conqueror's Haki user (most likely adv.coc) and a legend that is.


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## Mihawk (Tuesday at 9:10 PM)

arv993 said:


> Admirals are usually the weakest top tiers. Most people have the right to be skeptical



Are they?

We have the likes of Zoro, Kidd, Law, Old Rayleigh, Beckmann, and the older retired marine legends like Sengoku/Garp. Some even consider Yamato a top tier. They are all weaker. 

Unless your definition of top tier goes from Pirate King to Admiral, they're not the weakest.

There's not much skepticism on the strength of Admirals either since their introduction with Robin. They are repeatedly portrayed to be a pretty big deal in the verse, and are the strongest military powers of the Government.


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## Inferno Jewls (Tuesday at 9:23 PM)

Yeah Kaido not messing with the old greats, prime sengoku wins by default


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## arv993 (Tuesday at 10:12 PM)

Mihawk said:


> Are they?
> 
> We have the likes of Zoro, Kidd, Law, Old Rayleigh, Beckmann, and the older retired marine legends like Sengoku/Garp. Some even consider Yamato a top tier. They are all weaker.
> 
> ...


Zoro is not a top tier... Yet.


He's close. One can argue law, beckman, kidd are top tiers. And this is based off of law’s performance so thats not a done deal yet.

Law, kids and zoro seem to rise together but jury is still out on them.


So from the confirmed top tiers admirals are the lowest. And if not it's people like law, kid etc. I think law is pretty much one, but I am just waiting on the BB fight results


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## Seraphoenix (Tuesday at 10:17 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> What can I say except that you've been reading the manga incorrectly all this time. The narration boxes are not an 'in-universe' perception, as they very clearly contain information that people in the universe wouldn't now such as the future, they are statement of a narration which are taken as an authority. Sometimes that is subverted, but that is rare and we need a reason to think what was stated in a narration box isn't correct. If the narration boxes were just an in-universe perception, something like Whitebeard's title wouldn't be included because many people were doubting him being the strongest due to his age etc.


You said the title boxes are statements of fact. I have given you examples where this was not true. What you are asserting is demonstrably false. There are even more examples where the narrator gets it wrong. Which makes sense as they are presenting the in-verse perception.

The fact that I can point to examples means you are wrong. Writing it off as subversion is a fallacy. The fact that there are examples of the title boxes being wrong means your argument falls apart completely.

You are the one who couldn't read the manga properly. I told you three times now that Oda doesn't even want the reader to know he is there. That means he isn't pushing any statements of fact. He wants us to read and interpret the story. He isn't giving us anything completely definitive.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Tuesday at 11:30 PM)

Seraphoenix said:


> You said the title boxes are statements of fact. I have given you examples where this was not true. What you are asserting is demonstrably false. There are even more examples where the narrator gets it wrong. Which makes sense as they are presenting the in-verse perception.
> 
> The fact that I can point to examples means you are wrong. Writing it off as subversion is a fallacy. The fact that there are examples of the title boxes being wrong means your argument falls apart completely.
> 
> You are the one who couldn't read the manga properly. I told you three times now that Oda doesn't even want the reader to know he is there. That means he isn't pushing any statements of fact. He wants us to read and interpret the story. He isn't giving us anything completely definitive.


Like I said already, you are reading the story incorrectly. That isn’t how narration functions in any story. The narration can, at times, be subverted but this is rare. In general what we read in the narration boxes carry with it enough weight and authority to assume they are correct unless we have strong hints to the contrary. I’ve already shown you examples that prove the narration is not simply an in-universe perception. You can keep pretending they are all you want, that doesn’t make it true.

As for your post about Oda not wanting the reader to know he is there, the narrator is not the same as the author. We don’t assume the narration boxes are Oda speaking, the narrator is someone else entirely who may or may not ever be revealed.


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## Seraphoenix (Wednesday at 12:05 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Like I said already, you are reading the story incorrectly. That isn’t how narration functions in any story. The narration can, at times, be subverted but this is rare. In general what we read in the narration boxes carry with it enough weight and authority to assume they are correct unless we have strong hints to the contrary. I’ve already shown you examples that prove the narration is not simply an in-universe perception. You can keep pretending they are all you want, that doesn’t make it true.
> 
> As for your post about Oda not wanting the reader to know he is there, the narrator is not the same as the author. We don’t assume the narration boxes are Oda speaking, the narrator is someone else entirely who may or may not ever be revealed.


Your proposition was that the title boxes are statements of fact. They are not. Demonstrably so. Have the humility to acknowledge that you were wrong.

More recently we had a title box call Roger "Gold Roger". We knew over 400 chapters ago that his name is "Gol D. Roger". Yet in Wano we had Gold Roger as that was the in-verse perception at the time in the flashback. You are conflating a narrator presenting the in-verse perception, with a word of god narrator. They are not the same. Again, demonstrably so.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Wednesday at 12:25 AM)

Seraphoenix said:


> Your proposition was that the title boxes are statements of fact. They are not. Demonstrably so. Have the humility to acknowledge that you were wrong.
> 
> More recently we had a title box call Roger "Gold Roger". We knew over 400 chapters ago that his name is "Gol D. Roger". Yet in Wano we had Gold Roger as that was the in-verse perception at the time in the flashback. You are conflating a narrator presenting the in-verse perception, with a word of god narrator. They are not the same. Again, demonstrably so.


Okay, I was wrong to say they are always statements of fact. That doesn’t change the point I’m making, that the narration boxes are not merely the in-universe perception but the words of an actual narrator whose words have authority and weight. Narration in fiction operates in a specific way. One, the general population of a fictional world never operate as the narrator of a story. That just doesn’t happen. Two, things like calling Demalo Black ‘Strawhat’ or using the name Gold Roger don’t contradict this as they were known by those names, even if we as readers are aware of their actual names.

So yeah, if you think the narration boxes are just what people in the One Piece world think you’ve been reading the story wrong as I’ve demonstrated. The narration boxes are the words of a specific narrator whose words are by default assumed to always be correct, subversion is possible but we need pretty good indications to assume so. If we go by your logic the narrator serves absolutely no purpose since anything he says can just be wrong.


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## Mihawk (Wednesday at 6:10 AM)

arv993 said:


> Zoro is not a top tier... Yet.





arv993 said:


> *Low top tier like zoro. *Above yc1s by a good margin.





arv993 said:


> Zoro has comparable stamina to old ray and actually better AP by feats. But Zoro would lose and would give an extreme diff fight *hence him being a low top tier as well.*
> 
> 
> Zoro has good enough reaction speed and high AP. Big mom is a top tier with her speed so your standards for low top tier make no sense.
> ...





arv993 said:


> He's stronger than GB. He's a top tier.
> 
> 
> *Low top tiers *are wano law and kid, *zoro*





arv993 said:


> Law got a zenkai, zoro and sanji got one too. *Zoro is a low top tier* and sanji is a YC1+
> 
> It’s a travesty to think any admiral minus akainu can beat them one on two.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## TheWiggian (Wednesday at 6:15 AM)

Mihawk said:


>



That's like reading those female logic memes

Reactions: Funny 1


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## harurisu (Wednesday at 6:18 AM)

So what's the consensus after 2 years ? The answer better be Sengoku.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## arv993 (Wednesday at 5:22 PM)

Mihawk said:


>


Is low top tier a top tier to you?


I never consider them the same. It's like saying a pre-teen is a teenager to me.


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## Mihawk (Wednesday at 6:52 PM)

arv993 said:


> Is low top tier a top tier to you?
> 
> 
> I never consider them the same. It's like saying a pre-teen is a teenager to me.


If they’re called a low top tier then yes they are a top tier

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (Wednesday at 8:18 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> If we go by your logic the narrator serves absolutely no purpose since anything he says can just be wrong.


The narrators only purpose is to narrate. They don't lose their purpose in being wrong because their role in a story has never demanded that they be right. A narrator just recounts or reports parts of the story from a perspective that isn't always omniscient. The "unreliable narrator" has been used as a literary technique for ages.


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## Millennium Greed (Wednesday at 8:25 PM)

Chip Skylark said:


> The narrators only purpose is to narrate. They don't lose their purpose in being wrong because their role in a story has never demanded that they be right. A narrator just recounts or reports parts of the story from a perspective that isn't always omniscient. The "unreliable narrator" has been used as a literary technique for ages.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Wednesday at 9:42 PM)

Chip Skylark said:


> The narrators only purpose is to narrate. They don't lose their purpose in being wrong because their role in a story has never demanded that they be right. A narrator just recounts or reports parts of the story from a perspective that isn't always omniscient. The "unreliable narrator" has been used as a literary technique for ages.


I'm not sure what this had to do with the conversation I was engaging it. If you read that exchange, I admitted I misspoke when I said everything the narrator said was factual. I was challenging the notion that the narration boxes are merely what the One Piece population en masse think, they are not. One, because narration doesn't really work that way and two, because the narration boxes have delivered information the One Piece population couldn't possibly know. 

But to address the point you brought up, no the narration in One Piece is not an example of an unreliable narrator. Harry Potter is an example of an unreliable narrator, because it is through the point of view of a character within the story whom we know for a fact only has a partial understanding of things. The narration in One Piece is reliable, and it's only on the very rare occasion Oda subverts this temporarily. If you are arguing that the One Piece narrator is an example of an unreliable narrator, well you're wrong.


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## Kylo Ren (Wednesday at 10:20 PM)

Kaido high diff.

WSC, 1v1 King > some top tier who never recognize as the strongest by any shape or form from the manga.


Manga > your personal opinion.


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## Chip Skylark (Wednesday at 10:20 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> I'm not sure what this had to do with the conversation I was engaging it. If you read that exchange, I admitted I misspoke when I said everything the narrator said was factual. I was challenging the notion that the narration boxes are merely what the One Piece population en masse think, they are not. One, because narration doesn't really work that way and two, because the narration boxes have delivered information the One Piece population couldn't possibly know.
> 
> But to address the point you brought up, no the narration in One Piece is not an example of an unreliable narrator. Harry Potter is an example of an unreliable narrator, because it is through the point of view of a character within the story whom we know for a fact only has a partial understanding of things. The narration in One Piece is reliable, and it's only on the very rare occasion Oda subverts this temporarily. If you are arguing that the One Piece narrator is an example of an unreliable narrator, well you're wrong.


You claimed that the narrator would have no purpose if anything it said could just be wrong. I showed why that isn't true. The narration throughout One Piece isn't consistent, and it's irresponsible to lead with the default assumption that the narration is word of God. It's just not always a dependable source, and shouldn't be relied on so heavily.


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## Mihawk (Wednesday at 10:57 PM)

Kylo Ren said:


> Kaido high diff.
> 
> WSC, 1v1 King > some top tier who never recognize as the strongest by any shape or form from the manga.
> 
> ...



The problem with this is that this assumes a similar viewpoint as putting a title above one's predecessors by default. 

Not that different from saying Mihawk is WSS so he's stronger than Roger, a swordsman or saying that Old WB the WSM is stronger than the likes of Garp and Shiki in their primes. 

There are plenty arguments for putting Kaido ahead of Prime Sengoku I guess, but WSC and his 1 on 1 status probably ain't it. The reason being that Kaido is from the generation after Sengoku/Garp/Roger and them. By the time he blew up, they were already in their twilight years or dead. 

Kaido's status was only brought to the attention of the reader by the narrator after the timeskip.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Kylo Ren (Wednesday at 11:13 PM)

Mihawk said:


> The problem with this is that this assumes a similar viewpoint as putting a title above one's predecessors by default.
> 
> Not that different from saying Mihawk is WSS so he's stronger than Roger, a swordsman or saying that Old WB the WSM is stronger than the likes of Garp and Shiki in their primes.
> 
> ...


Edit: I made a mistake this is prime Sengoku lol My bad man. my points still stand I think cause Kaido made a reputation of being considered as strongest while Sengoku never did and Oda specifically put Kaido in the level of Rocks, Prime WB, and Roger by putting them on Kaido's top 5 list of people who could fight Kaido to death, Sengoku never had that kind of hype aside from Roger saying they are more exciting than the fodder he was choking.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Wednesday at 11:27 PM)

Chip Skylark said:


> You claimed that the narrator would have no purpose if anything it said could just be wrong. *I showed why that isn't true.* The narration throughout One Piece isn't consistent, and it's irresponsible to lead with the default assumption that the narration is word of God. It's just not always a dependable source, and shouldn't be relied on so heavily.


No you didn’t, you linked me to a narrative technique that One Piece doesn’t rely on except very rarely. The narration in One Piece is not unreliable. One because it’s a technique much more suited for something like a novel that has first or second person narration but also because in over 1000 chapters that narration boxes have functioned as a reliable narration. The subversions are just that, a break from the norm.


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## Chip Skylark (Yesterday at 5:14 AM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> No you didn’t, you linked me to a narrative technique that One Piece doesn’t rely on except very rarely. The narration in One Piece is not unreliable. One because it’s a technique much more suited for something like a novel that has first or second person narration but also because in over 1000 chapters that narration boxes have functioned as a reliable narration. The subversions are just that, a break from the norm.


I linked you to that narrative technique because it shows that narration can serve a purpose even if they're not always a dependable source of information. If you read the article you'd see that there are examples of the "unreliable narrator" technique even through a 3rd person perspective. Constantly reiterating that the subversions are just a break from the norm without any support doesn't go far to actually back your case when the reliability of the narration is what's under debate to begin with. Also a separate example of narration in One Piece being accurate doesn't prove that the narration you're arguing about is accurate. 

tl;dr you can't just automatically assume the narrator is going to be accurate, and you're depending too much on that being the default even though you've been shown otherwise.


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## Steven (Yesterday at 5:15 AM)

1on1 bet on Kaido

Reactions: Like 2


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## Mihawk (Yesterday at 7:41 AM)

Kylo Ren said:


> Edit: I made a mistake this is prime Sengoku lol My bad man.


All good my man. 


Kylo Ren said:


> my points still stand I think cause Kaido made a reputation of being considered as strongest while Sengoku never did


Sure but once again the point of dispute here is that Kaido's reputation is that of being the strongest _alive. _Prime Sengoku can't be included under his title as a result. 


Kylo Ren said:


> and Oda specifically put Kaido in the level of Rocks, Prime WB, and Roger by putting them on Kaido's top 5 list of people who could fight Kaido to death, Sengoku never had that kind of hype aside from Roger saying they are more exciting than the fodder he was choking.


Oda didn't put him on their level. Actually Kaido was the one who put them all on the same level and lumped them together as the 5 people whom he believed (or knew) could fight him toe to toe.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Chip Skylark (Yesterday at 7:47 AM)

Mihawk said:


> Oda didn't put him on their level. Actually Kaido was the one who put them all on the same level and lumped them together as the 5 people whom he believed (or knew) could fight him *toe to toe*.


If they're *toe to toe* that requires him to be their equal as well.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Yesterday at 9:19 AM)

Chip Skylark said:


> I linked you to that narrative technique because it shows that narration can serve a purpose even if they're not always a dependable source of information. If you read the article you'd see that there are examples of the "unreliable narrator" technique even through a 3rd person perspective. Constantly reiterating that the subversions are just a break from the norm without any support doesn't go far to actually back your case when the reliability of the narration is what's under debate to begin with. Also a separate example of narration in One Piece being accurate doesn't prove that the narration you're arguing about is accurate.
> 
> tl;dr you can't just automatically assume the narrator is going to be accurate, and you're depending too much on that being the default even though you've been shown otherwise.


Yes, third person unreliable narration exists. Everyone that has gone through high school knows this. Repeating over and over again that third person unreliable narration exists doesn’t somehow make One Piece an instance of unreliable narration.

However that is NOT the case in One Piece and usually not the case when it comes to comics/manga in general. That’s why when narration boxes appear there is almost never any discussion on whether or not the narration boxes are correct except rarely. When we saw Whitebeard’s intro box there wasn’t some discussion on whether or not his title was correct, it was assumed true. When we get boxes explaining an island etc we assume it’s true. The exceptions to this are just that, exceptions.

Also, third person unreliable narrators are usually told to us in the third person limited point of view which is not how the One Piece narration boxes operate. In most third person unreliable narration cases we know who or at least have a general idea of who the actual narrator is and also get hints if not outright proof of their biases etc. Again, a perfect example is Harry Potter. One Piece narration functions very different from works like Harry Potter or Lemony Snicket.


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## Mihawk (Yesterday at 12:03 PM)

Chip Skylark said:


> If they're *toe to toe* that requires him to be their equal as well.



Not necessarily because Akainu fought toe to toe against WB in their first clash. Aokiji fought toe to toe against him too. Rayleigh fought toe to toe against Kizaru as well.

It's semantics, but I don't consider Kaido as the equal to people like Prime WB or Roger. Xebec remains to be seen, but Kaido has a case (if not a benefit of a doubt) against Shanks. And again it's Kaido's perception.

Reactions: Like 1


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:12 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Doesn't really matter since Sengoku is not a creature.


"All living organisms" that includes humans


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## Mihawk (Yesterday at 12:12 PM)

ShWanks said:


> "All living organisms" that includes humans



Post Timeskip Kaido=/=Prime Sengoku.


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:13 PM)

C


Kylo Ren said:


> Edit: I made a mistake this is prime Sengoku lol My bad man. my points still stand I think cause Kaido made a reputation of being considered as strongest while Sengoku never did and Oda specifically put Kaido in the level of Rocks, Prime WB, and Roger by putting them on Kaido's top 5 list of people who could fight Kaido to death, Sengoku never had that kind of hype aside from Roger saying they are more exciting than the fodder he was choking.


This is my point as well


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:15 PM)

Mihawk said:


> Post Timeskip Kaido=/=Prime Sengoku.


Doesn't matter. I was responding to his comment.


Kylo Ren said:


> Edit: I made a mistake this is prime Sengoku lol My bad man. my points still stand I think cause Kaido made a reputation of being considered as strongest while Sengoku never did and Oda specifically put Kaido in the level of Rocks, Prime WB, and Roger by putting them on Kaido's top 5 list of people who could fight Kaido to death, Sengoku never had that kind of hype aside from Roger saying they are more exciting than the fodder he was choking.


This is my argument, not saying it's factual. As nearly all top tiers are debatable at this point but this is my reasoning. Agree or disagree.


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## Mihawk (Yesterday at 12:16 PM)

ShWanks said:


> Doesn't matter. I was responding to his comment.


It matters because Kaido being known as the WSC is information dropped after the timeskip. Sengoku was around his apex some 20+ years ago. Thus his title or perceived status is irrelevant from the discussion pertaining to the old legends. One can cite his feats, rooftop performances, or other elements of hype. 


ShWanks said:


> This is my argument, not saying it's factual. As nearly all top tiers are debatable at this point but this is my reasoning. Agree or disagree.


That's perfectly fine and I can agree with it.


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:18 PM)

Mihawk said:


> It matters because Kaido being known as the WSC is information dropped after the timeskip. Sengoku was around his apex some 20+ years ago. Thus his title or perceived status is irrelevant from the discussion pertaining to the old legends. One can cite his feats, rooftop performances, or other elements of hype.
> 
> That's perfectly fine and I can agree with it.


I'm telling you, I'm not using WSC as an argument for Kaido > Sengoku in that comment. I was simply explaining to him Kaido's title includes humans. That's all.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mihawk (Yesterday at 12:19 PM)

ShWanks said:


> I'm telling you, I'm not using WSC as an argument for Kaido > Sengoku in that comment. I was simply explaining to him Kaido's title includes humans. That's all.


Noted. My mistake.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Pimp of Pimps (Yesterday at 12:22 PM)

ShWanks said:


> "All living organisms" that includes humans


Kaido's title was just a way for Oda to hype him without having it be in direct competition with humans. Not saying he is or isn't the strongest, but this is classic Oda subterfuge.


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:24 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> Kaido's title was just a way for Oda to hype him without having it be in direct competition with humans. Not saying he is or isn't the strongest, but this is classic Oda subterfuge.


Nah or else I'd just apply that to all titles tbh.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Yesterday at 12:40 PM)

ShWanks said:


> Nah or else I'd just apply that to all titles tbh.


The word creature isn't inclusive of humans. That's why when Law in chapter 697 said that Kaido is said to be the 'strongest creature alive' Nami immediately remarked "What? So he isn't even human?" The world 'hyakujū' in his official title specifically excludes humans as far as I know and in the cnet translation of chapter it is said he is stronger than all beasts alive. Most of the stuff we hear about Kaido being the strongest is heresy rom residents of the OP world, all the 'official' stuff can very easily be interpreted as being exclusive of humans.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## ShWanks (Yesterday at 12:42 PM)

Pimp of Pimps said:


> The word creature isn't inclusive of humans. That's why when Law in chapter 697 said that Kaido is said to be the 'strongest creature alive' Nami immediately remarked "What? So he isn't even human?" The world 'hyakujū' in his official title specifically excludes humans as far as I know and in the cnet translation of chapter it is said he is stronger than all beasts alive. Most of the stuff we hear about Kaido being the strongest is heresy rom residents of the OP world, all the 'official' stuff can very easily be interpreted as being exclusive of humans.


It literally translates to all living organisms. Last time I checked, that included humans as they are living organisms.


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## Pimp of Pimps (Yesterday at 1:02 PM)

ShWanks said:


> It literally translates to all living organisms. Last time I checked, that included humans as they are living organisms.


Direct word for word translations are rarely ever accurate, anyone who knows more than one language knows this well. The phrase might technically translate to 'all living organisms' but it is usually used in a way that excludes human beings. 


*Spoiler*: __ 








1. Oda made sure to mention the caveat that 'people say.' In other words, this the opinion of the general populace and may or may not be indicative of reality. 
2. I already explained the 'every living thing' part. It can technically include humans, but the way it is usually used doesn't include humans. Like the word 'creature' in English for example. That's why some people had translated that part as 'beasts' instead.
3. Finally, the word creature is sued again and we already know both from Japanese but also from Nami's remark on Punk Hazard that this word does not include humans. 

It's pretty clear Oda was hyping Kaido up as much as he could while also leaving things open to a degree of interpretation in case he wants to make people like Shanks stronger than Kaido for example. It's somewhat open ended but there is definitely room here for Oda to have stronger people pop up (Shanks, Dragon etc) without technically contradicting anything.

Reactions: Winner 1


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