# Kizaru vs Big Mum



## Captain Altintop (Jul 18, 2017)

Knowledge: None
Location: Sky Islands
Mindset: Serious
Distance: 200 m.

Imo, this is a very good fight, possibly extreme diff. either way. Since Akainu would beat Big Mum with roughly extreme diff., Kizaru should have also 50:50 chance to be fair since I view Kizaru being extreme diff. opponent for Akainu either.


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 18, 2017)

I agree its an extreme difficulty match going either way.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Samehadaman (Jul 18, 2017)

Yup, I'll go with extreme diff either way.

Reactions: Agree 3


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## Captain Altintop (Jul 18, 2017)

It's definitely Oda's intention and attitude towards female chars that I'm trying to pick up. At least he brings up some top notch female Fighter but put her as the weakest Yonkou most probably.  We don't know the true circumstances, but I vote WCI being on the "weaker quarter" of the NW, with Kaidou's territory being in lower average part and Shanks' crew residing the upper average part with EoS Blackbeard reigning over the top sooner or later.


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## Gohara (Jul 19, 2017)

Big Mam's character wins with mid to high difficulty in my opinion.  Kizaru is faster but Big Mam's character is significantly physically stronger, has significantly superior defense, and has superior Haki.  Big Mam's character has also gotten superior reactions so far.  So superior portrayal and Abilities gives her character an edge.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## TheWiggian (Jul 19, 2017)

Kizaru extreme diffs. Nothing suggests that Big Mom is physically superior to him, her defense might be marginally better but her Haki is also not portrayed to be superior.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Nekochako (Jul 19, 2017)

Big Mom extreme diff. I think she is atleast stronger then one of the color admirals.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Gohara (Jul 20, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

I respectfully disagree. Big Mam at barely more than a toddler and without Haki yet one shotted a legendary Giant which is even more than what Old Whitebeard with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities did. Big Mam is currently far physically stronger than her character was at barely more than a toddler and has some of the best Haki in the series. Therefore Big Mam's physical strength is almost certainly well above that of Old Whitebeard's, and it's fair to suggest that Old Whitebeard is physically stronger than Old Rayleigh and Marco. Old Rayleigh's physical strength has shown to be on par with Kizaru's and Marco has overpowered Kizaru at one point in their match up. To be fair it's not just Kizaru. Big Mam's and Kaidou's physical strength are in a different realm from basically any other character that we've seen so far. Prime Sengoku might be up there in terms of physical strength as well while using his Devil Fruit Abilities. That includes some characters that I consider to be Yonkou level.

I don't know about just marginally superior. Supernova level characters had to come up with a plan just to be able to wound her character because it's rare for her character to even be scratched.

As for Haki, her Haki vibrated an entire Island. The only superior Haki feats that we've seen so far are Old Whitebeard's and Shanks' Haki.

Reactions: Like 2


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## TheWiggian (Jul 20, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> I respectfully disagree. Big Mam at barely more than a toddler and without Haki yet one shotted a legendary Giant which is even more than what Old Whitebeard with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities did. Big Mam is currently far physically stronger than her character was at barely more than a toddler and has some of the best Haki in the series. Therefore Big Mam's physical strength is almost certainly well above that of Old Whitebeard's, and it's fair to suggest that Old Whitebeard is physically stronger than Old Rayleigh and Marco. Old Rayleigh's physical strength has shown to be on par with Kizaru's and Marco has overpowered Kizaru at one point in their match up. To be fair it's not just Kizaru. Big Mam's and Kaidou's physical strength are in a different realm from basically any other character that we've seen so far. Prime Sengoku might be up there in terms of physical strength as well while using his Devil Fruit Abilities. That includes some characters that I consider to be Yonkou level.
> 
> ...



You can disagree as much as you like with me, doesn't mean a thing to me.

How far has the community sunk since some people believe that Big Mom is physically stronger than the WSM.

Complete statements and titles of the narrator are forgotten because someone one shots an old giant with osteoporosis.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 3


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 20, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> You can disagree as much as you like with me, doesn't mean a thing to me.
> 
> How far has the *community sunk since* *some people believe that Big Mom is physically stronger than the WSM*.
> 
> Complete statements and titles of the narrator are forgotten because someone one shots an old giant with osteoporosis.



WSM as in he wins all 1v1 fights not that he can bench the most  Doesn't help you read titles if you don't understand them

Reactions: Like 2


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## trance (Jul 20, 2017)

Big Meme edges it


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## Dunno (Jul 20, 2017)

Kizaru wins. I don't think Big Mom could catch him, since she's not even able to do anything when she loses her footing. I'm not even sure she can jump. If Kizaru goes into melee and tries to brawl, he might lose (unless he has better durability than Bege of course), but if he stays at range and beam-spams, then he wins with moderate effort.


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## Vermilion Kn (Jul 20, 2017)

Kizaru. Blitz and laser the land whale.


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## Kylo Ren (Jul 20, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Kizaru wins. I don't think Big Mom could catch him, since she's not even able to do anything when she loses her footing. I'm not even sure she can jump. If Kizaru goes into melee and tries to brawl, he might lose (unless he has better durability than Bege of course), but if he stays at range and beam-spams, then he wins with moderate effort.



He got zeus to ride on to catch Kizaru.


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## Dunno (Jul 20, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> He got zeus to ride on to catch Kizaru.


Zeus is weaker than Brook though, so I'm not sure he will last especially long. Also, she's probably too fat to ride it, seeing as she didn't use it fly on when the castle fell.


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## Kylo Ren (Jul 20, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Zeus is weaker than Brook though, so I'm not sure he will last especially long. Also, she's probably too fat to ride it, seeing as she didn't use it fly on when the castle fell.



The plot have something to do with that and we know how brook injured him is because of his DF, but truth to be told no one can catch Kizaru he's too fast even Z is having a hard time and we don't know what his DF are really capable of.


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## Harard (Jul 20, 2017)

Big Mom wins.

Reactions: Like 1


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## savior2005 (Jul 20, 2017)

either way extreme diff.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Vermilion Kn (Jul 20, 2017)

What feats does BM have to merit her winning against Kizaru ?

She gets fingered.


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## drew8324 (Jul 20, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Kizaru wins. I don't think Big Mom could catch him, since she's not even able to do anything when she loses her footing. I'm not even sure she can jump. If Kizaru goes into melee and tries to brawl, he might lose (unless he has better durability than Bege of course), but if he stays at range and beam-spams, then he wins with moderate effort.


Stop it dunno. Charlotte LinLin is a yonkou. She wins by default against an admiral yet alone an admiral portraye dunder Aokiji and Akainu. However sh ebeing the weakest of Yonkou is not coming out unscathed. She Probably losing Zues and 1 of her arms after that fight. 



Vermilion Kn said:


> Kizaru. Blitz and laser the land whale.


She reatected to a Kong Gun with EASE and possibly w/o Ken haki. Kizaru isn't blitzing here like that. 



Dunno said:


> Zeus is weaker than Brook though, so I'm not sure he will last especially long. Also, she's probably too fat to ride it, seeing as she didn't use it fly on when the castle fell.



Wow can't believe you are saying Zeus is weaker than Brook. That's preposterous. Zeus and Promethese ;ost due to Brook having a Soul advantage over them and being relevant to the story line. Zeus just one-shotted judge who is  AT LEAST DELLINGER LEVEL IF not HIGHER and damn near one-shotted Reiju and she has EXTREME FIRE RETARDANT gear and is AT LEAST SMOKER LEVEL



Vermilion Kn said:


> What feats does BM have to merit her winning against Kizaru ?
> 
> She gets fingered.



She is a Yonkou.


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## Vermilion Kn (Jul 20, 2017)

"She's a Yonko!!!!"

Yeah, that means something...

Kizaru does to her what he did to Zeto, only without the epic music.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Jul 20, 2017)

drew8324 said:


> Stop it dunno. Charlotte LinLin is a yonkou. She wins by default against an admiral yet alone an admiral portraye dunder Aokiji and Akainu. However sh ebeing the weakest of Yonkou is not coming out unscathed. She Probably losing Zues and 1 of her arms after that fight.
> 
> Wow can't believe you are saying Zeus is weaker than Brook. That's preposterous. Zeus and Promethese ;ost due to Brook having a Soul advantage over them and being relevant to the story line. Zeus just one-shotted judge who is  AT LEAST DELLINGER LEVEL IF not HIGHER and damn near one-shotted Reiju and she has EXTREME FIRE RETARDANT gear and is AT LEAST SMOKER LEVEL



She is a Yonkou, that's true. She has also shown that she can't do anything when her castle fell over, not even to help herself. She also showed that she, when blood-lusted, couldn't bring down Bege before he and his friends had had quite a lengthy conversation. Before Big Mom got all of her detrimental feats, I would have placed her above Kizaru due to her Yonkou status, but now I do not. 

Brook might have had a DF advantage, but if the difference is too large, then that doesn't matter. Zeus and Prometheus might be slightly stronger than Brook at best. One-shotting Judge isn't anything to write home about, and how is Reiju anywhere near Smoker's level?


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## TheWiggian (Jul 21, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> WSM as in he wins all 1v1 fights not that he can bench the most  Doesn't help you read titles if you don't understand them



The statement alone that the ruler of the seas "Whitebeard" didnt let anyone become PK (Yonkous included) puts him above everyone.

Thats mad hype, at least far more impressive than anything Charlotte received/will receive.

I'll ignore the bait attempt about the title, since it's not worth to discuss with some people.


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 21, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> The statement alone that the ruler of the seas "Whitebeard" didnt let anyone become PK (Yonkous included) puts him above everyone.
> 
> Thats mad hype, at least far more impressive than anything Charlotte received/will receive.
> 
> I'll ignore the bait attempt about the title, since it's not worth to discuss with some people.



You said that people were 'low' to think Big Mom could be physically stronger than the 'World's Strongest Man'.

I pointed out that that was stupid because the title WSM refers to his ability to beat everyone 1v1, not that he was a strongman. tldr: Big Mom can be physically stronger than WB but at the same time lose to him 1v1.

BTW every Yonko is ruler of the sea. WB didn't rule Kaido, BM or Shanks' territory. 

So yes ignore the fact that you got called out for thinking WSM means WB will automatically win every strength contest  There is no bait when you are flat out wrong. Unless you want to stick to that contention so that people can say Mihawk has the strongest sword slashes because of his title, but Vista is more skilled to stalemate him with the gap in power.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## TheWiggian (Jul 21, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> You said that people were 'low' to think Big Mom could be physically stronger than the 'World's Strongest Man'.
> 
> I pointed out that that was stupid because the title WSM refers to his ability to beat everyone 1v1, not that he was a strongman. tldr: Big Mom can be physically stronger than WB but at the same time lose to him 1v1.
> 
> ...



Whatever helps you sleep at night.


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## Ruse (Jul 21, 2017)

Big Mom high diffs


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 21, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> Whatever helps you sleep at night.



Translation: I don't have the courage to admit I was wrong in thinking WSM meant the physically strongest person in the world.

Big Mom beats Kizaru pretty handily. She has far superior portrayal.

Reactions: Like 4 | Tier Specialist 1


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## TheWiggian (Jul 21, 2017)

Seraphoenix said:


> _Translation: I try to look competent by wanking Big Mom thought nothing is speaking for her to win this fight, not to mention handily._
> 
> *Big Mom beats Kizaru pretty handily. She has far superior portrayal.*



_Fixed.
_
*Fixed by yourself unconsciously.*

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Seraphoenix (Jul 21, 2017)

TheWiggian said:


> _Fixed.
> _
> *Fixed by yourself unconsciously.*



What? You are confusing me now. You sound drunk imo


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jul 21, 2017)

Oh my, lol how the wheel has turned. You'd have been chased out of this place 6 years ago for suggesting that Kizaru could beat BM and now at best for BM it's a 50/50 toss up on here. This arc really has been brutal for her and consequentially Yonkou portrayal in general. Just wish of my old sparring partners on this topic like @Coruscation were still around for this moment. 


As for my take, I agree it's going to be an extreme difficulty and it's likely going to come down to tactics and approach more than outright power given the closeness. Kizaru has been portrayed as quite slow (mentally) and too unserious at times, however BM has been downright portrayed as autistic - a giant woman child obsessed with food, who's just a dumb thuggish brute, so I lean Kizaru here especially with his speed and range advantage.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Optimistic 1


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## GrizzlyClaws (Jul 21, 2017)

Big Mom wins high diff. This arc didn't reduce Yonko's status as the best of the best for me, but rather it eliminated any expectation I had of BM acting rational or making a thought out decision or having good leadership, which is a shame really since at the start of the arc she came off as that all knowing all seeing mafia boss. It's more down to her character/personality, which came out so disappointing, not her strength or her portrayal as a Yonko. Despite her character flaws she is still untouchable as a fighter. Yonko's still have that larger than life aura surrounding them.


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## Gohara (Jul 21, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

Does the title refer to physical strength or overall power? Also, it's not just any ordinary Old Giant. We're talking about a legendary Giant on the most powerful Island in the series. Would John Giant be legendary on the most powerful Island in the series? That seems unlikely to me but even if that were the case John Giant still survived a Technique from Old Whitebeard who has Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. A legendary Giant on the most powerful Island in the series was one shotted by Big Mam prior to achieving Haki and having Devil Fruit Abilities. To be fair that was an ill and Old Whitebeard in The Marineford War Arc. However for a character at barely more than a toddler to have that type of feat that would already make her one of the physically strongest characters in the series is insane. Yet Big Mam's character is currently infinitely physically stronger than she was at barely more than a toddler.

So even though a fully healed Old Whitebeard is likely more powerful than Big Mam overall Big Mam is almost certainly a level if not even a league or more physically stronger than a fully healed Old Whitebeard.

Using another comparison, Big Mam seemed to brush off Gear 4th Luffy without much of a problem. Yet a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy didn't wound Fujitora but he did overpower him in terms of physical strength. If Fujitora were => Gear 3rd Luffy in terms of physical strength he wouldn't have been pushed back at all. Yet he was sent flying. Therefore Big Mam > Gear 4th Luffy >>>> Gear 3rd Luffy > Fujitora in terms of physical strength. So unless Kizaru is several times physically stronger than Fujitora that suggests that Big Mam's character is multiple leagues above Kizaru in terms of physical strength.

However just because Big Mam outclasses Kizaru in terms of physical strength and defense doesn't necessarily mean that it would be a relatively easy match up. Kizaru is one of the fastest characters in the series with some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities in the series. Still, though, Big Mam has an edge in several aspects whereas Kizaru only has an edge in 1 or 2 aspects in addition to Big Mam having superior portrayal both in terms of character's reactions and match ups so far.


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## trance (Jul 22, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> This arc really has been brutal for her and consequentially Yonkou portrayal in general.



really tarnishes the justice Whitebeard did to the title tbhtbf 



> Kizaru has been portrayed as quite the stoner and subsequently, too relaxed and mellowed out at times to take things seriously



ftfy


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 22, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> really tarnishes the justice Whitebeard did to the title tbhtbf



But WB was the World's Strongest Man, and Rogers main rival, "ruler of the seas" "The Man closest to One Piece". Thats > every  Yonko so far.

Granted with his old age, I imagine the other Yonko and Admirals started closing on the gap, and we saw that during the war where Sakazuki was able to go to toe with him, I imagine every other Admiral and the other Yonko can do the same though he wins out in the end anywhere in the range of high-extreme difficulty.

I feel when Oda hypes someone individual capabilities its usually the "worlds... " title that is much more important.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jul 22, 2017)

Extreme either way until one of them gets more feats.


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## trance (Jul 22, 2017)

Furinji Saiga said:


> But WB was the World's Strongest Man, and Rogers main rival, "ruler of the seas" "The Man closest to One Piece". Thats > every Yonko so far.



i know but considering BM's somewhat unimpressive display so far, it kinda brings down the Yonko name


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## Kylo Ren (Jul 22, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> i know but considering BM's somewhat unimpressive display so far, it kinda brings down the Yonko name



But her strength/power is impressive and her past is interesting but every other aspect of her is really underwhelming and the next time we see her again it will be Luffy vs Her and it's gonna be glorious.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> She is a Yonkou, that's true. She has also shown that she can't do anything when her castle fell over, not even to help herself. She also showed that she, when blood-lusted, couldn't bring down Bege before he and his friends had had quite a lengthy conversation. Before Big Mom got all of her detrimental feats, I would have placed her above Kizaru due to her Yonkou status, but now I do not.
> 
> Brook might have had a DF advantage, but if the difference is too large, then that doesn't matter. Zeus and Prometheus might be slightly stronger than Brook at best. One-shotting Judge isn't anything to write home about, and how is Reiju anywhere near Smoker's level?


The Admirals, Mihawk and Emperors are all probably roughly equal. WB is probably the only exception.

Reactions: Like 3 | Optimistic 1


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## X18999 (Jul 22, 2017)

Big Mom would have him on a sting like she did Brook.

I don't see the Admirals and Emperors as equal and this arc certainly didn't change things for me.


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2017)

Lee-Sensei said:


> The Admirals, Mihawk and Emperors are all probably roughly equal. WB is probably the only exception.


That depends on how widely you define roughly. I don't think anyone of those could defeat two others, but I still think there are sizeable differences between them, with Big Mom being on the lower end.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> That depends on how widely you define roughly. I don't think anyone of those could defeat two others, but I still think there are sizeable differences between them, with Big Mom being on the lower end.


Mihawk and Shanks are definitely equals. And I haven't seen anything that would suggest that the Emperors are above the Admirals except for Whitebeard again. I think it makes sense that the strongest Marines, the strongest pirates and the strongest privateer (warlords) would be roughly at the same level.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Optimistic 1 | Dislike 1


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2017)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Mihawk and Shanks are definitely equals. And I haven't seen anything that would suggest that the Emperors are above the Admirals except for Whitebeard again. I think it makes sense that the strongest Marines, the strongest pirates and the strongest privateer (warlords) would be roughly at the same level.


I agree regarding Shanks and Mihawk. And yes, the admirals and Yonkou should be roughly on the same level, but definitely not equals. My ranking goes something like: Mihawk / Shanks > Aokiji / Akainu / Kaido > Blackbeard / Kizaru > Big Mom / Fujitora / Rokugyu or whatever he's called.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 2


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> I agree regarding Shanks and Mihawk. And yes, the admirals and Yonkou should be roughly on the same level, but definitely not equals. My ranking goes something like: Mihawk / Shanks > Aokiji / Akainu / Kaido > Blackbeard / Kizaru > Big Mom / Fujitora / Rokugyu or whatever he's called.



Where would Prime  Garp and Rayleigh, Old WB, Prime Shiki go?


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2017)

Furinji Saiga said:


> Where would Prime  Garp and Rayleigh, Old WB, Prime Shiki go?



*Prime Garp* / *Prime Rayleigh* > *Old Whitebeard* / Mihawk / Shanks > Aokiji / Akainu / Kaido > Blackbeard / Kizaru / *Prime Shiki* > Big Mom / Fujitora / Rokugyu or whatever he's called. Pre-TS, old WB would have been above Mihawk / Shanks but below the prime legends.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jul 22, 2017)

Prime Garp should be on par with Rodger considering the man himself out right said they both beaten each other to near death numerous times before.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Prime Garp should be on par with Rodger considering the man himself out right said they both beaten each other to near death numerous times before.



That does not mean they were equals. If Luffy's journey would have been off-panelled, he and Smoker would have almost killed each other numerous times. What that statement implies is that Garp was adamant in his pursuit of Roger and that he were close enough for both to have a chance at winning. The most clear evidence that Roger and Whitebeard was above the rest is that Old Whitebeard, even in his sick condition, remained the strongest man in the world, while Garp, who's perfectly healthy, remained below him.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> That does not mean they were equals. If Luffy's journey would have been off-panelled, he and Smoker would have almost killed each other numerous times. What that statement implies is that Garp was adamant in his pursuit of Roger and that he were close enough for both to have a chance at winning. The most clear evidence that Roger and Whitebeard was above the rest is that Old Whitebeard, even in his sick condition, remained the strongest man in the world, while Garp, who's perfectly healthy, remained below him.


What Smoker's jobbing self got to do with Garp as I recall the only parallels between them two is that Smoker has a more vested interest in Luffy thats where it ends. I mean for the guy who suppose to be Luffy marine rival in almost 900 chapters they've only fought 2 or so times with both ended up getting interrupted. Regardless Garp himself doesn't need to be equal to Rodger for them to bring each other to near death much like the hair lengths distance between Akainu and Aokiji.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> I agree regarding Shanks and Mihawk. And yes, the admirals and Yonkou should be roughly on the same level, but definitely not equals. My ranking goes something like: Mihawk / Shanks > Aokiji / Akainu / Kaido > Blackbeard / Kizaru > Big Mom / Fujitora / Rokugyu or whatever he's called.


IMO, there's a strong possibility that Akainu will be the Final Villain. It seems likely to me that he's not weaker than Mihawk and Shanks. I'm pretty sure he has the second best feats of any Top Tier after Whiteboard too.


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## Dunno (Jul 22, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> What Smoker's jobbing self got to do with Garp as I recall the only parallels between them two is that Smoker has a more vested interest in Luffy thats where it ends. I mean for the guy who suppose to be Luffy marine rival in almost 900 chapters they've only fought 2 or so times with both ended up getting interrupted. Regardless Garp himself doesn't need to be equal to Rodger for them to bring each other to near death much like the hair lengths distance between Akainu and Aokiji.



Smoker and Luffy have the same kind of relationship as Roger and Garp. They have kind of a one-sided friendly rivalry, with the marine having made chasing the pirate their main objective. The reason Luffy and Smoker hasn't fought as much as Garp and Roger is because Oda has to show them fight. It's just how it's possible for 12 hour or 10 days long fights to take place off-panel, but not on-panel. 

The main reason I believe Roger was stronger though is, as I explained before, because Whitebeard with his disease was still stronger than Garp and anyone else. I don't think more evidence is needed.



Lee-Sensei said:


> IMO, there's a strong possibility that Akainu will be the Final Villain. It seems likely to me that he's not weaker than Mihawk and Shanks. I'm pretty sure he has the second best feats of any Top Tier after Whiteboard too.



There is a possibility. If Akainu is the actual FV, as in not only the last enemy Luffy fights, but also the strongest, then he's going to be stronger than Shanks and Mihawk. I think that'll be BB though, but I admit that Akainu has a chance. 

Regarding feats, I don't think his are THAT great, not when discussing the potential WSM. The problem is his feat of being practically equal to Kuzan. For almost any character in almost any situation, this would be a great feat. When discussing who the potential WSM is though, I think this one actually a liability. I don't consider Aokiji to be a serious contester for the title of WSM, so to be practically equal to him lessens your chances of being the WSM in my eyes.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 22, 2017)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> What Smoker's jobbing self got to do with Garp as I recall the only parallels between them two is that Smoker has a more vested interest in Luffy thats where it ends. I mean for the guy who suppose to be Luffy marine rival in almost 900 chapters they've only fought 2 or so times with both ended up getting interrupted. Regardless Garp himself doesn't need to be equal to Rodger for them to bring each other to near death much like the hair lengths distance between Akainu and Aokiji.


 Buggy said WB who could tie with Roger.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 22, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> Does the title refer to physical strength or overall power? Also, it's not just any ordinary Old Giant. We're talking about a legendary Giant on the most powerful Island in the series. Would John Giant be legendary on the most powerful Island in the series? That seems unlikely to me but even if that were the case John Giant still survived a Technique from Old Whitebeard who has Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. A legendary Giant on the most powerful Island in the series was one shotted by Big Mam prior to achieving Haki and having Devil Fruit Abilities. To be fair that was an ill and Old Whitebeard in The Marineford War Arc. However for a character at barely more than a toddler to have that type of feat that would already make her one of the physically strongest characters in the series is insane. Yet Big Mam's character is currently infinitely physically stronger than she was at barely more than a toddler.
> 
> ...



Big Moms overall portrayal caps at Admiral/FA/Yonkou which are overall equalized. That's the absolute best type of portrayal she received.

Hyping her up by saying that she killed a legendary, "featless", old as fuck giant with osteoporosis isn't gonna cut it. If Big Mom were stronger than the other Yonkou she would've defeated the others like a few of you state here on NF. She could've taken the title of WB by defeating him or if she would've been so physically superior to him, Oda would've declared her as the Strongest Mad Cow, yet he didn't. Toddler character or not, her feats still peak at building level even as a Yonkou.

I don't care about John Giant since that fucker got gigantified when he was a normal kid.

The G4 Luffy example you brought up sucks, since he was weakened as fuck and only had energy for 1 punch, on top of that the fat cow had to cover her fist with CoA so that she doesn't take damage from Luffy. How are you even comparing a direct clash to a blindside attack Luffy did on Issho? I guess you like to take whatever fits your argument the best. Comparing a Luffy with a rest of a few hours to a Luffy who rested a couple of days is literally autism. If you think about it a G3 attack would make Big Mom roll a few rounds if it would hit her from a blindside like with Fujitora since she couldn't even hold her weight when her cake palace collapsed. 

The only aspect she's got above Admirals/FAs and Yonkous is durability currently and only marginally if you don't count in Kaidou.


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## Lee-Sensei (Jul 22, 2017)

Dunno said:


> Smoker and Luffy have the same kind of relationship as Roger and Garp. They have kind of a one-sided friendly rivalry, with the marine having made chasing the pirate their main objective. The reason Luffy and Smoker hasn't fought as much as Garp and Roger is because Oda has to show them fight. It's just how it's possible for 12 hour or 10 days long fights to take place off-panel, but not on-panel.
> 
> The main reason I believe Roger was stronger though is, as I explained before, because Whitebeard with his disease was still stronger than Garp and anyone else. I don't think more evidence is needed.
> 
> ...


Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Akainu undeniably has the best feats of any living character. To be fair, that's because we haven't seen many Top Tiers fight for an extended period of time, but it's the truth. Didn't Kishimoto say that if Akainu wanted to find One Piece the story would be over in a year? Blackbeard running away from him. Going toe to toe with the Whitebeard Commanders and Crocodile. The reason I think he'll be fought after Blackbeard, is because Whiteboard says that discovering One Piece will trigger a war with the World Government and that war is what the government and Sengoku were afraid of. Blackbeard is after One Piece. Akin represents the World Governments military force. Luffy's grudge against Akainu is also much more personal since he was the one that killed Ace.

He did beat Aokiji. Anyways, the Admirals shouldn't be too far off from each other and neither should the Emperors. The Admirals are the most powerful Marines and the Emperors are the most powerful pirates.


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## Mr. Good vibes (Jul 22, 2017)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Akainu undeniably has the best feats of any living character. To be fair, that's because we haven't seen many Top Tiers fight for an extended period of time, but it's the truth. Didn't *Kishimoto* say that if Akainu wanted to find One Piece the story would be over in a year? Blackbeard running away from him. Going toe to toe with the Whitebeard Commanders and Crocodile. The reason I think he'll be fought after Blackbeard, is because Whiteboard says that discovering One Piece will trigger a war with the World Government and that war is what the government and Sengoku were afraid of. Blackbeard is after One Piece. Akin represents the World Governments military force. Luffy's grudge against Akainu is also much more personal since he was the one that killed Ace.
> 
> He did beat Aokiji. Anyways, the Admirals shouldn't be too far off from each other and neither should the Emperors. The Admirals are the most powerful Marines and the Emperors are the most powerful pirates.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Big Mom (Jul 22, 2017)

Big Mom wins this.

First off all, she has demonstrated a wide range of abilities, and honestly, her versatility is what makes her most frightening. She has immense haki, enough to clash with a Gear 4 attack casually. She can summon an entire army of homies, essentially making her a one woman army. Three of her homies in particular are strong, their attacks being enough to solo members of the Germa. With all four (her + Zeus, Napoleon, and Prometheus) attacking at once, she should be able to overwhelm Kizaru enough for her to land some attacks.

Whether or not her she can steal his soul is another thing.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## A Optimistic (Jul 23, 2017)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> however BM has been downright portrayed as autistic



Which is kind of sad, because she was not like this on Fishman Island.

I don't get why Oda took the route he did with her and her crew.


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## Sherlōck (Jul 23, 2017)

Can go either way but leaning towards Kizaru cause Big Meme is incompetent as fuck.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Furinji Saiga (Jul 23, 2017)

Lee-Sensei said:


> Then we'll just have to agree to disagree. Akainu undeniably has the best feats of any living character. To be fair, that's because we haven't seen many Top Tiers fight for an extended period of time, but it's the truth. Didn't Kishimoto say that if Akainu wanted to find One Piece the story would be over in a year? Blackbeard running away from him. Going toe to toe with the Whitebeard Commanders and Crocodile. The reason I think he'll be fought after Blackbeard, is because Whiteboard says that discovering One Piece will trigger a war with the World Government and that war is what the government and Sengoku were afraid of. Blackbeard is after One Piece. Akin represents the World Governments military force. Luffy's grudge against Akainu is also much more personal since he was the one that killed Ace.
> 
> He did beat Aokiji. Anyways, the Admirals shouldn't be too far off from each other and neither should the Emperors. The Admirals are the most powerful Marines and the Emperors are the most powerful pirates.



Your confusing Oda with Kishimoto friend.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Gohara (Jul 23, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

-The Yonkou vs. the Admirals is a significantly disputed point on this Forum. Naturally it doesn't serve as an argument of itself. Therefore it can't rightfully be used to disagree with Big Mam's character being significantly physically stronger than the Admirals.

-Feats aren't the only way of measuring how powerful a character is though. For example Dragon's character is technically featless but if Blackbeard one shotted Dragon without using Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities the first thing many fans would do is catapult Blackbeard to the top of their power level lists. There are a lot of characters that a lot of fans rank mostly based on portrayal. Elbaf Island is portrayed as the most powerful Island in the series and those legendary Giants are portrayed as some of the most powerful legendary characters from that Island. I'm not necessarily suggesting that they're top tier as those versions of their characters. More powerful than a Vice Admiral though? That seems very reasonable if not likely but even if those characters are comparable my point would mostly be the same. Either way it's one of the best physical strength feats in the series. Yet her character is infinitely physically stronger now than her character was at barely more than a toddler. Big Mam yelling alone is enough to vibrate an entire Island so it's fair to suggest that she can do a lot more than throw buildings around which in itself is something that we haven't seen most characters do either.

-Luffy needs enough energy to use Gear 4th in the first place. So even if we argued that it's a battle worn Gear 4th Luffy that still ranks him several times physically stronger than the version of Luffy that pushed back Fujitora. So either way Big Mam's character is far physically stronger than the version of Luffy that pushed back Fujitora. Plus even if you wanted to look at it another way, Big Mam's character is significantly physically stronger than Lord Cracker who is physically stronger than a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy who is physically stronger than Fujitora. As for Luffy vs. Fujitora, Luffy announced that he was going to match up against Fujitora and Fujitora acknowledged that Luffy was there multiple panels prior to them clashing.

-You keep mentioning Whitebeard's title but again I'm not referring to overall power. I'm referring to physical strength specifically. I consider Fujitora to be a league above a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy in terms of overall power but a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy is physically stronger than Fujitora. I consider the Admirals to be more powerful than Jozu overall but Jozu is physically stronger than most if not all of them.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 23, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> -The Yonkou vs. the Admirals is power significantly disputed point on this Forum. Naturally it doesn't serve as an argument of itself. Therefore it can't rightfully be used to disagree with Big Mam's character being significantly physically stronger than the Admirals.
> 
> ...



The Admirals/FAs and Yonkous been more or less equalized in one of the latest chapters, whether you like it or not doesn't mean a thing to me since Oda stated it through mother Caramel.

Feats aren't the only thing that matters that's right, yet they seem to be undisputeable for you when it's about toddler Mom defeating a suuuuper old giant or Shanks clashing with WB, or indicating that a battle worn G3 Luffy is physically stronger than an admiral.

Giants are weak as hell since they were treated like shit throughout the story, Dorry and Brogy were about to be defeated by weak characters like Mr.5 and Mr. 3 who were one shotted by EB Luffy. The giants of EL were defeated by weak characters pre ts. John Giant and Ronse casually defeated by WB. Hajrudin one shot by a simple G2 attack. It makes me wonder why defeating a featless, out of his prime, long living giant whos been called legendary because he fought so much in his 300+ years is such a massive feat. You overexaggerate without a reason too, noone bar gilgamesh considers this a great feat.

Luffy was fucked as hell, fighting his longest fight up to date for 11-12 hours, resting a bit, getting beat up by Sanji while being defenceless, resting a bit again and then immediately after fighting another sweet commander, facing a Yonkou. No amount of excuses will make a sane person consider a G4 attack being powerful after all that.

*Whitebeard was given the title of the "strongest man in the world" for his tremendous physical power.
*
He was one of the only 2 known people being able to match the PK in a fight, no LinLin mentioned here despite her being of a similiar age, seems weird to me because she hated a younger version of Roger and probably tried to take revenge against him, yet failed miserably if she even tried at all, properly hid once Roger became PK.

WBs feat of stopping a huge motherfucking ship he sailed on with a single arm effortlessly while already being at bad health and having grave wounds is a physical feat Charlotte yet has to replicate. This feat is >>> everything Charlotte done on panel till now.

As i said you could argue that LinLins durability is superior to the other Yonkou/Admirals/FAs and even that would be hard to prove with Kaidou around. Physically she's nowhere close to the top of the feats we had in One Piece.


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## Gohara (Jul 24, 2017)

-I'm not sure what you mean here. Mother Caramel stated that Big Mam as a Marine has potential to be an Admiral or even a Fleet Admiral. If anything the statement makes it sound like Fleet Admiral is > Admiral, otherwise it would be like saying “Admiral or even Admiral”, which would be pointless. Also, it was a projection made on a Big Mam who had yet to achieve Haki and acquire Devil Fruit Abilities. Mother Caramel seeing a glimpse of Big Mam at barely more than a toddler and already thinking that her potential is anywhere from Admiral to Fleet Admiral level is already insane enough, but for that to be even prior to including Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities? The statement is basically the opposite of what you're implying. Not only does it suggest a separate level between Admiral level and Fleet Admiral level, but Big Mam's potential was placed above Admiral level without Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. It would be easy to say that the statement strongly indicates that Big Mam is above Admiral level. However it's simply a prediction from a character.

-Your arguments imply that being featless means we can't rightfully rank a character. Nothing about my argument is implying that. There are no feats contradicting the feats that I mentioned nor am I suggesting that nothing but those feats matter.

-What other conclusion is there to a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy overpowering an Admiral in terms of physical strength?

-If Giants are so weak then why is Elbaf Island considered the most powerful Island in the series? That doesn't necessarily mean that every Giant character that we see is very powerful. However when a character is introduced as a legendary character from the most powerful Island in the series, it strongly indicates that at the very least that they're some of the most powerful Giant characters that we've seen so far, if not the most powerful Giant characters that we've seen so far. Plus the specific feats in question are a comparison between John Giant and the legendary Giants. Even if we give John Giant the benefit of the doubt and assume that he's around as powerful as legendary Giants on the most powerful Island in the series- which if anything is unlikely- Big Mam at barely more than a toddler would likely be able to do the same to John Giant. Yet Big Mam is now infinitely physically stronger than she was at barely more than a toddler. If Old Whitebeard's physical strength were around the same level as Big Mam's physical strength then he shouldn't even need his Devil Fruit Abilities to easily one shot John Giant and a lot more.

-Luffy might have matched up against Lord Cracker longer but he took significantly more damage matching up against Doflamingo. Also, if Luffy were as battle worn as you're suggesting then how did he even use Gear 4th at all? Gear 4th requires a significant amount of energy at least relative to basically being defeated. Also it had been hours since he had sustained any significant damage so while saying that he's battle worn is fair it doesn't necessarily mean that Gear 4th would be more than several times weaker than usual. Plus since Luffy was also battle worn against Fujitora most of the difference that would make is negligible.

-That's a quote from One Piece Wiki, as far as I know it's not stated anywhere in the Manga. Also, let's assume for now that it is true. That would mean two things: First, it would mean that Whitebeard's physical strength is nerfed far more in The Marineford War Arc than initially thought, and secondly it would basically change everything in the Whitebeard vs. Shanks discussion- which is another significant point of dispute on this Forum. Your other points here don't disagree with anything that I'm saying as they simply imply that Whitebeard is more powerful than Big Mam's character overall, something that I don't disagree with.

-I respectfully disagree. Why would a giant Pirate Ship count for more than a legendary Giant character? Also, simply stopping a Pirate Ship from moving isn't as impressive as one shotting a legendary Giant character. Also, it's not just one shotting a legendary Giant that makes the feat insanely impressive. Although even if Big Mam did that now it would be one of the most impressive physical strength feats in the series so far. What makes it the best physical strength feat in the series so far is that her character is now infinitely physically stronger than she was when her character could already perform such a feat. For every other physical strength feat in the series, we would have to ask if those characters could perform those same feats if they were only using a small fraction of their physical strength? The answer to almost all of those questions would be no. Then there's still the addition of Haki.

-What physical strength feats are superior to what Big Mam has done when you consider that her character can do that at barely more than a toddler?


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## TheWiggian (Jul 24, 2017)

Gohara said:


> -I'm not sure what you mean here. Mother Caramel stated that Big Mam as a Marine has potential to be an Admiral or even a Fleet Admiral. If anything the statement makes it sound like Fleet Admiral is > Admiral, otherwise it would be like saying “Admiral or even Admiral”, which would be pointless. Also, it was a projection made on a Big Mam who had yet to achieve Haki and acquire Devil Fruit Abilities. Mother Caramel seeing a glimpse of Big Mam at barely more than a toddler and already thinking that her potential is anywhere from Admiral to Fleet Admiral level is already insane enough, but for that to be even prior to including Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities? The statement is basically the opposite of what you're implying. Not only does it suggest a separate level between Admiral level and Fleet Admiral level, but Big Mam's potential was placed above Admiral level without Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. It would be easy to say that the statement strongly indicates that Big Mam is above Admiral level. However it's simply a prediction from a character.
> 
> -Your arguments imply that being featless means we can't rightfully rank a character. Nothing about my argument is implying that. There are no feats contradicting the feats that I mentioned nor am I suggesting that nothing but those feats matter.
> 
> ...




You think mother Caramel really spreads nonsense like that without knowing what it takes to become Admiral? Even we know that becoming Vice Admiral you need at least 1 form of Haki. Like imagine Big Mom becoming FA and she can't defeat East Blue Logias because she got no Haki 
Alright so that's how you think about Top Tiers, they can become Admiral with no Haki, pretty embarassing Gohara and here i thought you think a little before you type all these amounts of letters.
There's no considerable gap between FA and an Admiral since they were matched dead even and Akainu winning by a hair's breath, it is further reinforced with Caramels statement. Everything is backed up what was shown in the manga and got hand and feet.

Ok so what's a great feat of that giant and why is it such an amazing feat to defeat him? Please without the manga considering that giant a legend?
Why aren't you wanking G2 Luffy for one shotting Hajrudin who has actual feats which are literally, physically impressive?

What other conclusion? The same as Zoro overpowering Issho, Doflamingo and trash that overpowered his CoO (one of the most hyped one in the series so far) in the casino, do you also agree that those were overpowering the admiral?

Don't know why you guys keep jumping on the first hype train of an arc as always althought you know that ones the strawhats got their main battle there, all the hype and feats of the residents get dwarfed compared to them. I already mentioned all the feats of all the giants we saw so far with the conclusion that they were one shot, effortlessly defeated, one shot, one shot, one shot, effortlessly defeated. Unlike you i see more than enough of proof that they're nothing special. It's most likely the strongest country since the average giant is like a couple of times stronger (physically) than an average human.

How do you know that G4 requires to go into that mode alot of energy? The manga contradicts this statement heavily. Against Doflamingo, Luffy was somewhat drained, against Cracker he had multiple occasions when he entered that mode, starting with healthy, then drained, then more drained, then even more drained and it continued for over 10 hours, if you're sane you can imagine how weak he gets after a G4 round, you might can even imagine that he doesn't need much energy to go into that G4 mode after this example and on top of that it's backed up by that 1 punch clash between Luffy and LinLin and that he lost all his power (the leftovers that he had after all his fights since he arrived on WCI).

Ofc its from the manga, if i find it ill post. WB is physically the strongest man just as Mihawk is the physically strongest Swordsman.
￼
Why it counts more is that the Moby dick is like a thousands of times heavier than an old giant, on top of that the ship had momentum before WB stopped it. Get back at me once Big Mom showcases somehing like that as a Yonkou. If i remember right Big Mom's best physical feat up to date is destroying buildings with unrestricted attacks.
Your toddler argument gets boring since not even Big Mom can back it up on panel.


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## Kai (Jul 24, 2017)

Big Mom edges this. Had everyone at the wedding shit their pants when unleashing her wrath. Including Luffy, Capone, Jimbei, Germa 66, Caeser, her own children executives, etc.

She's likely stronger than Kizaru.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Gohara (Jul 25, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

-That's not exactly what I'm suggesting. However how would any character know for a fact exactly how powerful a character is going to be based on a relatively small sample. Plus, and again, it seems more like a point in favor of Big Mam being > Admiral level since it only took a relatively small sample for Caramel to think of her potential as ranging from Admiral level to Fleet Admiral level and is also before Caramel has seen any of Big Mam's Haki talent and Devil Fruit Abilities.

-I think that you're misunderstanding what I mean. I'm not saying that Big Mam at barely more than a toddler is Yonkou level. I'm saying that Caramel already thought of Big Mam's potential to be that amazing even before knowing anything about Big Mam's potential in Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. In other words, even if you exclude Big Mam's Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities as a Yonkou, if her character is as powerful as Caramel thought then her character would still be => the Admirals and possibly even around Fleet Admiral level. So how powerful is Big Mam's character with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities?

-The difference in power between Fleet Admirals and Admirals is one of the points of dispute so again it doesn't serve as evidence of itself. Plus what's your counter evidence of Caramel's statement? If Caramel is suggesting that Admiral level and Fleet Admiral level are two different levels then her character would have to be incorrect, no? Also in what way does Caramel's statement reinforce the idea that the Admirals and Fleet Admirals are basically equal? According to the translations that we've seen so far her character says “Admiral level or even Fleet Admiral level”. The words “or even” strongly suggests that they're two different levels, otherwise her character would say something like “Admiral/Fleet Admiral level”. Plus even if her character didn't say it exactly like that- which as far as we know her character did say it exactly like that- it's not like it would automatically mean that they're basically equal just for two words to be in the same sentence. Akainu became a Fleet Admiral at some point after that match up. Plus that doesn't necessarily mean that Pre Time Skip Akainu and Aokiji are 100% equal. Even if they were, that doesn't necessarily mean that the other Admirals are 100% equal to them as well. Additionally, even though it being a long match up suggests that they're mostly equal, one could also point to Pre Time Skip Akainu having enough energy to take out Aokiji after the match up and walking away as that was alluded to by Jinbe. Pre Time Skip Akainu, the most powerful Admiral that we've seen so far, could also be borderline low Fleet Admiral level. So for example it's entirely possible that exceptional Fleet Admirals > average Fleet Admirals > rookie Fleet Admirals => exceptional Admirals > other Admirals. That wouldn't contradict Caramel's statement. Either way I don't see what other argument could be made against Caramel's statement other than suggesting that her character is incorrect.

-It's not a feat but portrayal that suggests a relatively high ranking for the legendary Giant. The portrayal starts with Elbaf Island being the most powerful Island in the series. Therefore by association any character that's legendary even on the most powerful Island in the series should be very powerful, no? I mean, would John Giant be legendary on the most powerful Island in the series? The idea that Big Mam's character at barely more than a toddler could do more to a legendary Giant than what Old Whitebeard did to John Giant is remarkable. Unless characters far below Vice Admiral level are legendary on the most powerful Island in the series. Which doesn't make much sense. Obviously I'm not suggesting that Big Mam's character at barely more than a toddler is > Admiral level. What I am suggesting though is that even at barely more than a toddler Big Mam's character has one of the most impressive physical strength feats in the series, and that as a Yonkou Big Mam is infinitely physically stronger now than she was at barely more than a toddler.

-Hajrudin isn't a legendary Giant though. Also, you're referring to overall power. Admirals can defeat most Giants that we've seen so far without much of a problem. However that doesn't necessarily mean that they can physically overpower most or all of them.

-Zoro didn't specifically physically overpower Fujitora. Zoro with a specific Technique overpowered a specific Gravity based Technique from Fujitora. Although I don't think that it would be strange at all if Zoro is physically stronger than most if not all Admirals, even though I think that the Admirals are a level above Zoro in terms of overall power. I'm not sure what you mean about the Observation Haki example.

-It takes more than foot soldier Giants being multiple times physically stronger than average Humans for Elbaf Island to be the most powerful Island in the series. There are multiple Paradise level characters who can defeat multiple foot soldier Giants individually and in some cases without much of a problem. For example Pre Time Skip Lucci can defeat Oimo and Kashi combined, yet an Army of Luccis wouldn't make an Island in The New World the most powerful Island in the series. Since there are a lot of characters far more powerful than Lucci in The New World. I'm not necessarily suggesting that every Giant character on Elbaf Island is Admiral+ level or anything like that. However there are almost certainly at least several characters on that Island who rank as some of the more powerful characters in the series with one or multiple of them possibly even being some of the most powerful characters in the series.

-Gear 4th is so powerful that Rayleigh talked about the difficulty of maintaining that Form and suggested for Luffy to find another Form or another way of using that Form. Plus Luffy has to heal some each time his character uses it. Your post implies that Luffy uses Gear 4th at least several times against Lord Cracker but as far as we know he only uses it a couple times. Once at the beginning of the match up and then many hours later after eating a lot of Biscuit Soldiers. I'm not disagreeing that Luffy is battle worn but he had to conjure up a lot of energy to use it in the first place and he was intent on getting a shot in, so even if he could only sustain his full power for that one Technique he was still able to put forth a Gear 4th worthy Technique. That Gear 4th Technique is naturally more powerful than the Gear 3rd Technique that physically overpowered Fujitora.

-I'm fairly certain that you've disagreed with the possibility of Dragon and Shanks being > Old Whitebeard in terms of overall power due to Whitebeard's title. Now that you seemingly think differently of what that title means does that at least make it a possibility in your opinion? Not to be off topic, I'm just curious. In any case, even supposing it does refer to physical strength, it doesn't necessarily disagree with what I'm saying. It could either be a testament to how nerfed an ill and Old Whitebeard was during The Marineford War Arc or that there's a significant physical strength difference between that version of Whitebeard and Prime Whitebeard. Still, if you show me an official translation where the title clearly states that it's a title purely about physical strength, then I will agree that as far as we know a fully healed Whitebeard is the physically strongest character in the series. 

-We have no idea how much the legendary Giant and the Pirate Ship weigh. Also if we're talking momentum the legendary Giant is blood lusted in that scene. I respectfully disagree with the way that you're characterizing the buildings feat but easily overpowering a legendary Giant at barely more than a toddler is a far superior physical strength feat to that. Since even foot soldier Giant characters can destroy buildings. Besides what are the Admirals' best physical strength feats? The Admirals haven't even done anything like throwing buildings around.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 26, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> -That's not exactly what I'm suggesting. However how would any character know for a fact exactly how powerful a character is going to be based on a relatively small sample. Plus, and again, it seems more like aHaki. nt in favor of Big Mam being > Admiral level since it only took a relatively small sample for Caramel to think of her potential as ranging from Admiral level to Fleet Admiral level and is also before Caramel has seen any of Big Mam's Haki talent and Devil Fruit Abilities.
> 
> ...



You think mother Caramel really spreads nonsense like that without knowing what it takes to become Admiral? Even we know that becoming Vice Admiral you need at least 1 form of Haki. Like imagine Big Mom becoming FA and she can't defeat East Blue Logias because she got no Haki. Mother Caramel exactly knows that you need Haki to become an Admiral, not to mention that almost all Admirals had Devilfruits that we saw except Garp and Z, but Garp was never an Admiral. So everything is included, Mother Caramel knows exactly what she talks about since she sells kids since decades for the Marines/WG.

The counter to the Admiral evidence is right there. The C3 been portrayed equal since them being VAs, they all got a different colour, got animal nicknames, all got a logia and all been shown to attack WB head on at MF. As i said before there is a clear feat of Akainu being equal to Aokiji and the fight ended by a hair's breath even changing an island equally into Magma and Ice 50% - 50%, if you don't see clear manga statements i can't help you.

Hajrudin might not be a legendary giant, but he got proper feats and you can scale at least somethibg from them compared to that fodder giant that died from a swing.

Zoro's flying slashes come from physical strenght, read the Zoro vs Ryuma fight on TB for confirmation. Basically Zoro overpowered an Admiral with physical pressure while being at a huge disadvantage like increased gravity that overpowered another Supernova. Never knew you were a Admiral downplayer Gohara. Forget the CoO example it was sarcasm.

If all islands in the One Piece world are inhabited by humans and 1 island by giants who are measured by average citizen the average giant is multiple times stronger than a average human just like average fishmen are like 10x stronger than average humans. We saw a direct exampleof it when the fishmen easily overpowered the population in Namis village, as long as there are no superhuman characters included, the average citizen have no hope to come out stronger.

Lemme ask you 1 thing. What is stronger? A G4 punch from a healthy Luffy at full power or from a Luffy who had a life and death fight a couple of hours ago, got beat up after that, ate a little meat and had a little bit of sleep?
I actually don't see how Luffy overpowered Issho physically since he even admitted right afrer that punch that he can't defeat the Admiral.


Don't know what physical strenght means for you but for me it clearly got something to do with physical attributes. Ofc Shanks and Dragon got a shot at becoming the WSM now after WB died, but it's clear that noone could've become the strongest or PK while WB was alive. It's been stated by Doflamingo that he was the ultimate ruler of the seas, the absolute strongest sitting on the throne, not letting anyone reach Raftel and become PK. Now that he is dead everyone roams free and tries to join the throne wars.

So you're telling me that this giant weights more than a Yonkou ship that got momentum? Are you for real now?
And stopping that ship with 1 arm effortlessly is a worse feat than throwing an old giant?

The best physical feats of Admirals are contending with WB in CQC and stopping his Bisento swings with their legs, but thats just an example, or fighting for 10 days against another top tier.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 26, 2017)

I think Akainuts ~ Aokiji ~ Fleet admiral > Fujitora ~ Kizaru ~ Ryowhatever ~ admiral.

Though you can't really be fired from the FA position even if the current admirals become stronger than you. That's just my assumption though


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## A Optimistic (Jul 26, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> -That's not exactly what I'm suggesting. However how would any character know for a fact exactly how powerful a character is going to be based on a relatively small sample. Plus, and again, it seems more like a point in favor of Big Mam being > Admiral level since it only took a relatively small sample for Caramel to think of her potential as ranging from Admiral level to Fleet Admiral level and is also before Caramel has seen any of Big Mam's Haki talent and Devil Fruit Abilities.
> 
> ...




You've made some interesting points, allow me to rebuttal.


*Spoiler*: __ 



jk

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 3


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## Gohara (Jul 26, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

-I'm not sure if you meant to repost that part of the post but I responded to it in the text that you're quoting.

-Nicknames and character designs having patterns don't really have anything to do with power levels though. I mean the top Yonkou Commanders in The Big Mam Pirates all have the same type of nicknames and titles. Yet we know that they're not all exactly equal in terms of power.   Plus it's not like I'm suggesting a significant difference between Admirals. I'm simply suggesting that they aren't all necessarily exactly equal. As for your point on Pre Time Skip Akainu vs. Aokiji, you seem to only be looking at the length of the match up. However I think that there could be more to it than that. While it was suggested that it was a long match up it was also suggested that Pre Time Skip Akainu won and still had enough energy to take out Aokiji if he wanted to, and apparently also walked away from the battlefield.  So it could simply be that they're mostly equal but there's still a decisive difference in power between those characters.

-True but as I said there's more to power level discussions than just feats. It's unlikely that Hajrudin is as powerful as those legendary Giants even though he has more feats than them. Which I think is something else that also suggests that there's more to power level discussions than just feats. Indeed but I'm not disagreeing with your point on Zoro's Techniques. What I'm suggesting is that Zoro didn't specifically physically overpower Fujitora but rather a Gravity Technique. I don't think that I am an Admiral downplayer. The Admirals are some of my favorite characters in the series. Actually I generally like the Admirals more than most Yonkou Commanders and most of the Yonkou. There's just a significant difference in how some fans portray the power levels while watching the series compared to how some other fans do.

-Okay but that's no where near enough to make it the most powerful Island in the series.  If there were just a lot of foot soldier Giant characters then not only would there be a lot of characters who could still go there and take control of it but there would be other Islands more powerful than it. If anything I think that Fishman Island supports that example.  Even though Fishmen are generally 10+ times more powerful than Humans it's not an Island that is 10+ times more powerful than every other non-Giant Island in the series.

-Several or many hours of rest + eating seems like a lot to me. I mean I agree that a fully healed Technique from Gear 4th Luffy is still superior but I don't see any evidence suggesting that there's a significant difference. Even if there is some difference Big Mam brushed off the Gear 4th Technique without much of a problem, and again Gear 4th is multiple times physically stronger than Gear 3rd. When did Luffy admit that he can't defeat Fujitora? Although I should note that I do think that Fujitora has a slight edge over Luffy in a fair one on one match up. However that's mostly due to Gear 4th's limits. Plus winning doesn't necessarily mean that a character is physically stronger than characters that they can win against.

-I'm not just talking about physical strength though. Haven't you disagreed with me on Dragon and Shanks possibly being more powerful than Old Whitebeard due to Whitebeard's title? If you think that the title is specifically physical strength then the title can't rightfully be used to suggest that Dragons and Shanks can't be more powerful than Old Whitebeard overall, no? Physical strength =/= overall power. Even then that assumes that the title isn't from Whitebeard's prime specifically.

-I'm not claiming one way or the other. I'm just not sure how anyone would know how much either weighs since we know basically nothing about how much Giant characters weigh and what all is on that Pirate Ship at the time. Either way though I would argue that the Legendary Giant character has significantly more momentum.

-Not only was that against an ill and Old Whitebeard at the time, though, but I don't even necessarily agree with those examples. Kizaru was kicking down at the Bisento. If you were to put someone who can lift 280 pounds on one side and someone who can lift 140 pounds on the other side, if the character who can lift 140 pounds is standing on a weapon, the character who can lift 280 pounds is going to have a lot of difficulty lifting that weapon up entirely if they do it at all. Marco has overpowered Kizaru in a clash sending him flying. So does that suggest that Marco is => Old Whitebeard in terms of physical strength? Plus that's an even more battle worn version of an ill and Old Whitebeard at the time than the version that couldn't entirely one shot John Giant- compared to a Yonkou Big Mam who is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> a barely more than a toddler version of Big Mam who one shotted a Legendary Giant character who is likely even more powerful than John Giant.

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## xmysticgohanx (Jul 27, 2017)

Kaido > BB ~ Akainuts ~ Shanks > Big Mom ~ Kizaru ~ Fujitora ~ Ryowhatever 

Imo


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## Bernkastel (Jul 27, 2017)

Kizaru certainly has the edge on speed while BM is stronger physically..their haki should be close while she propably also edges him in durability too ..he shouldn't try cqc cause he'd be overwhelmed for sure ..his best chance is to focus on ranged attacks but I'm not sure you can down yonkou with just that...on the other hand she has all the tools to put him down via multiple ways...Zeus also helps close the gap between their speed gap whatever that is...she also has soul manipulation and we still don't know how that amounts to this..I'd give it to BM for now since she's far more versatile


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## TheWiggian (Jul 28, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> -I'm not sure if you meant to repost that part of the post but I responded to it in the text that you're quoting.
> 
> ...




If you're not sure i accept your concession on that point, a little less to type again.

Big Mom might have Sweet Commander's who got the same title but there's a considerable gap between them as shown in the manga, while 1 can't destroy a door (we all know who that is) the other can fight for 11 hours straight, while another 1 can look into the future. The Admirals been portayed absolutely different, i don't know what's your problem to see the difference. Robin talked of the Admirals in the samw sentence, they all have island lvl feats, they all sat on a hair when introduced in MF. They all used their Haki to block WB's quake attack. And then you got the 10 days fight between 2 of them that once again, shows how close, yea almost equal in power they really are. Call me again when the sweet commanders get the same treatment.

Hajrudin is in his Prime, he will still grow as a strawhat grand fleet member while the legendary one was about a century outta his Prime. Also since Hajrudin got these said feats he gets the benefit of a doubt unless it's stated otherwise by Oda, like as an example when someone states EoS that Hajrudin reached the level of those legendary giants. I even doubt you can prove, thanks to what that giant is legendary. Could it be strenght, age, fighting wars and surviving them, defeating a rival he had for decades/centuries, who knows.

Giants been shown to be as Vikings in One Piece, so they're literally a warrior race, that also explains why they have more foot soldier on top of their superior physique compared to humans. Just because it wasn't mentioned to be 10x stronger doesn't mean it isn't, at least it started with fishman island right after the timeskip to show that it gets serious in the new world. Also don't forget the example i mentioned how Arlong came into Nami's hometown and what happened, manga fact>speculation.

There is a significant difference because even when Luffy was hurt like against Flamingo he managed to stay in G4 for several minutes, against Big Mom it was just for 1 punch. It can't be portrayed better than that, that run through seducing woods, fighting with Cracker, getting beat up by Sanji and being nailed down for hours while he strained himself, trying to get out till Jinbei came took a huuuge toll on Luffy's body. I don't see how pushing an Admiral a few meters is a superior physical feat.

You can try and cheer for Shanks day and night he's still weaker than Oldbeard as stated in the manga.
He was superior to everyone living on that planet. Uncountable panels back it up.

Go ahead, i rather go with the sane idea of a Yonkou ship weighting more than a giant.

When was Marco overpowering Kizaru? I also haven't stated that Kizaru is stronger than WB￼,  
just that he can physically contend with WB like the other Admirals and Shanks/Yonkous. If you think Marco can do the same you're free to think that Marco can also overpower Shanks.


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## Akitō (Jul 28, 2017)

I'd honestly favor Big Mom, but it'd be a hard fight. It's interesting how people think worse of Big Mom after this arc. I think the opposite. Big Mom being set up as the antagonist after Kaido is huge for her.

That being said, IMO there's good reason to believe that the Admirals are around the level of the Yonko with the latter being marginally stronger on average, so Kizaru shouldn't be too far off. The Admirals have been around for a while and have yet to go all out against anyone besides Whitebeard (and maybe Rayleigh, depending on how hard Kizaru was trying). The fact that Luffy will likely be fighting and defeating Kaido before defeating an Admiral despite the Admirals being set up as long-time foes who Luffy has never beaten is indicative of their significance and strength.


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## Gohara (Jul 30, 2017)

-I have no idea what you're getting at here. I don't see any correlation between what you said and what I said. I responded to a point that you made, and you seemingly accidentally reposted what I had responded to so I assume that you meant to post something else there which is why I asked. I have no idea that that has to do with a concession.

-I don't know about a considerable gap but if you agree that having the same type of nicknames and titles don't suggest that characters are exactly equal in terms of power then I don't see what both characters being Admirals has to do with my point. Vice Admirals and The Shichibukai appear in the same sentence a lot. Yet we know that not all Vice Admirals are around the same level let alone exactly equal in terms of power. The same goes for The Shichibukai. Doflamingo has Island level feats, yet if I remember correctly you consider the Admirals to be a level above Doflamingo. King Vinsmoke has sat in a chair next to Big Mam's character who also sat in a chair, yet we know that Big Mam's character is significantly more powerful than King Vinsmoke's character. The Admirals don't need to be exactly equal to team up. Plus I doubt that you consider Prime Garp and Admiral Sengoku to be exactly equal even though they have teamed up multiple times. Almost equal is different than exactly equal.

-Kashi is in his prime, yet Legendary Giants are almost certainly far more powerful than Kashi. If characters with feats get the benefit of the doubt over characters without feats then wouldn't that suggest that Koala is more powerful than Dragon?

-How do we know that The Giants Tribe has more foot soldiers than other races and species? Plus simply having more foot soldiers that are more powerful than average Humans is no where near enough to make Elbaf Island the most powerful Island in the series. Fishman Island has hundreds of thousands of foot soldiers who are more powerful than average Humans and there are multiple Islands more powerful than Fishman Island and in some cases significantly more powerful than Fishman Island.

-Luffy intentionally only threw one punch. Luffy's character himself stated that he only wanted to throw one punch. Also he still had to have the energy to conjure up enough energy to go into Gear 4th and use that Technique in the first place so it's still mostly representative of Luffy's physical strength. Most of the things that you're saying about Luffy in The Totland Arc can also be said about Luffy in The Dressrosa Arc. The reason that it suggests that Luffy is physically stronger than Fujitora is because if Fujitora were => a battle worn Gear 3rd Luffy in terms of physical strength then he would have naturally held his position rather than being pushed back.

-That's in terms of physical strength if what you say is true, which is something that I haven't disagreed with. Even then that's assuming that the title isn't from his prime.

-Even if we assume that the character still has more momentum.

-When they clashed Marco sent Kizaru flying. Again if Kizaru were => Marco in terms of physical strength wouldn't he have held his position? Shanks and Kizaru are different characters. Kizaru doesn't need to be anywhere near as physically strong as a battle worn ill and Old Whitebeard in order to stand on his Bisento and again even if that were the case Prime Whitebeard is > a fully healthy Old Whitebeard who is >>>>>>> a battle worn ill and Old Whitebeard in terms of physical strength.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 30, 2017)

Gohara said:


> -I have no idea what you're getting at here. I don't see any correlation between what you said and what I said. I responded to a point that you made, and you seemingly accidentally reposted what I had responded to so I assume that you meant to post something else there which is why I asked. I have no idea that that has to do with a concession.
> 
> -I don't know about a considerable gap but if you agree that having the same type of nicknames and titles don't suggest that characters are exactly equal in terms of power then I don't see what both characters being Admirals has to do with my point. Vice Admirals and The Shichibukai appear in the same sentence a lot. Yet we know that not all Vice Admirals are around the same level let alone exactly equal in terms of power. The same goes for The Shichibukai. Doflamingo has Island level feats, yet if I remember correctly you consider the Admirals to be a level above Doflamingo. King Vinsmoke has sat in a chair next to Big Mam's character who also sat in a chair, yet we know that Big Mam's character is significantly more powerful than King Vinsmoke's character. The Admirals don't need to be exactly equal to team up. Plus I doubt that you consider Prime Garp and Admiral Sengoku to be exactly equal even though they have teamed up multiple times. Almost equal is different than exactly equal.
> 
> ...



And i already told you that Caramel sells children for decades to the Marines, so she knows exactly that to become VA you need Haki. So she calculated, the result was that she thinks that once Big Mom grows up, gets Haki et cetera she would be strong enough to become a Admiral or Fleet Admiral. Thats why i repeated the sentence while you seem to dance around the fire on that topic.

I don't know why you can't see the difference between the portrayal of the admirals and portrayal of fodder like Judge, sweet commanders et cetera.
- all 3 have similiar names
- all 3 are the ultimate fighting force of the wg
- all 3 are extremely powerful logias
- all 3 have island level feats
- all 3 of them fought the WSM
- all 3 of them fought the strongest Yonkou commanders at MF
- all 3 of them showed equal fruit mastery (dodging WB's stab, Aokiji/Kizaru, Marco's and Vista's slash, Akainu)
- all 3's haki been portrayed around equal when blocking WB's quake punch
- all 3 been introduced sitting next to each other before MF war started
- 2 of the 3 were promoted to FA
- 2 of the 3 fought for 10 days to a standstill, till 1 won by a hairs breath
- once 1 left the Marine, the wg lost a tremendous amount of power, mentioned by none other than the gorosei
- all 3 of them spread fear among the pirates

VS

- Being father of the Vinsmoke's/Sanji sitting in a chair next to Big Mom, mother of the Charlotte's/Pudding during a wedding of their children
- Sweet Commanders, 1 getting defeated in a humiliating way, 2nd not able to destroy a door, 3rd defeated by Urouge off-panel, 4th not being able to look into the future properly while being hyped of having this incredible CoO

Great comparison Gohara bravo 

It's not really an argument for you side since even other weak giants are more impressive than Kashi 
Yes as i said character with feats get the benefit of a doubt "unless, i said unless, Oda stated otherwise" which applies for the Koala-Dragon statement. Seriously if you don't know where to hold onto, just give it up, this Koala-Dragon example is simply embarrassing.

We know that since giants are a warrior race, just as the samurai, so it's logical for a warrior country to have warrior's don't you think? The same as the Marines, all warriors except cooks and guys that do the laundry i guess. Well i can only list 2 islands that are more powerful than fishman island and those are Elbaf and Wano, if you got anymore go ahead, provide them.

Okay Luffy threw one punch, doesn't change the fact that afterwards he immediately fell back to base, stating he was losing power, ironically it just confirms that he only had enough power for 1 punch, i guess he knew it actually. Also Big Mom had to cover her arm with CoA so that Luffy won't hurt her with that punch, on top of that it was no blindside attack like against Fujitora, the admiral didn't even use Haki nor was he serious, so much about Luffy being physically stronger.

As you know, WB still had the most impressive feats to up to date in the manga, which backs his title up, despite being old, he was still considered the strongest by everyone, by pirates, civillians, marines, all said that WB is the strongest, multiple times.

The giant might have more momentum since it's a shounen it's not impossible for characters being so strong but the ship definitely weights like a 100 times more than him, thats my point.

So you really expect Kizaru to magically being able to fly/hover in the air despite not being able to use rokushiki? So you consider a flying character to be physically stronger because he pushed someone who can't fly or hover back on the ground?



I refered to the WB point before in my post.

Reactions: Like 1


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## trance (Jul 30, 2017)

debating with gohara is like reading ft; you just don't do it

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Gilgamesh (Jul 30, 2017)

That people unironically legit think she's weaker than the C3, Rayleigh, Mihawk, Dragon, Fuji/GreenBull just shows how fucked this section is

-snip-​


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## Gohara (Jul 31, 2017)

@ TheWiggian.

Okay, I'm going to take a different approach to this discussion before addressing your points because I don't think the back and forth points that we're making makes a big enough difference to really change my overall points. As such we're basically splitting hairs. So:

-Okay, let's say that Luffy is around 25% going into that confrontation against Big Mam's character. That seems fair, right? Considering that Luffy has rested for several hours prior to that scene and sustains significantly less significant wounds against Lord Cracker than Doflamingo that's a relatively generous estimation. Gear 4th is stated to be several times more powerful than Gear 3rd, right? Meaning that even at around 25% a Gear 4th Technique is comparable to a Gear 3rd Technique from a mostly or perhaps even fully healed Luffy. Obviously assuming that it's a comparable level of Technique. Even looking at it at that perspective, Big Mam brushing off a Technique from Gear 4th Luffy is still significantly more impressive than getting pushed back from a Gear 3rd Technique from Luffy.

-Let's establish some things here. First off we don't know how much Giant characters weigh. Does a big Pirate Ship likely weigh more than Giant characters? Sure. However we have no idea the exact difference between their weight. What we know is that many small and average boats weigh between 10-20 times as much as an average Human. However Big Mam's character is also barely more than a toddler in that scene. Adults are generally multiple tens of times physically stronger than children. Even giving your points the benefit of the doubt those differences cross cancel each other. However there's still the Giant character having more momentum. Which still makes Big Mam's feat more impressive. More importantly, though, if you have no idea how much Giant characters weigh then wouldn't that make a comparison between 2 Giant characters more reliable? John Giant certainly doesn't weigh 10-20 let alone 100+ times more than a legendary Giant character. Whitebeard's feat is also combined with Haki and Devil Fruit Abilities. That's not even factoring in that Big Mam's character is barely more than a toddler at the time. Yet Big Mam did more to that legendary Giant character than Whitebeard did to John Giant. So unless you're suggesting that John Giant is many tens of times physically stronger and/or more powerful than a legendary Giant character then I don't see how Big Mam's feat isn't superior. Whether or not a fully healthy Old Whitebeard is physically stronger than Big Mam's character seems unlikely to me but either way that's a different discussion because the Whitebeard in question is an ill and battle worn Old Whitebeard. However one of the points for bringing up that comparison is because that version of Whitebeard is still one of the physically strongest characters in the series.

Given those points, I think that we're mostly splitting hairs in some of our previous posts. We're discussing back and forth about relatively minor points that don't make much of a difference in the points of my comparisons to begin with.

To address some of your other points:

-Caramel has no idea what Big Mam's potential is when it comes to Haki so not only would that point be entirely speculative but the idea of Caramel including such a speculative variable is very unlikely. Also even assuming that were the case it still doesn't include Big Mam's character's Devil Fruit Abilities. Giving a character who is at least => Admiral level if not above Devil Fruit Abilities would make them decisively above Admiral level, especially when they're some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities that we've seen.

-We haven't seen Fujitora sitting in a chair next to the Admirals and his character isn't a Logia Devil Fruit User. Which even more so demonstrates a lack of relevance in those similarities. CP9 characters have the same rank, are all Rokushiki Users, all stand next to each other in a row, and most even have similar skills such as Shipwright skills and Devil Fruit Abilities. There are countless comparisons of a group of characters that have a lot of similarities. Which suggests that a lot of characters having similarities doesn't have much to do with whether or not they are exactly equal in terms of power.

-We've seen multiple Logia Devil Fruit Users levitate and Kizaru even does so when shooting Lasers at a submarine. Besides, the only way that argument matters is if you're suggesting that Kizaru simply fell, but given that he was thrown into a wall relatively fast right after Marco kicked him suggests that it was due to Marco's kick and not simply because Kizaru can't levitate. It's also unlikely that Kizaru doesn't know Rokushiki Techniques considering that multiple Vice Admirals know them.

-My point about Kashi is that there are many featless characters more powerful than characters with feats, thus disagreeing with your argument that we can't rightfully suggest that a legendary Giant character is more powerful than Hajrudin since his character has feats and the legendary Giant characters don't yet have any on screen feats.

-I'm not disagreeing that they have soldiers on Elbaf Island. Most Islands do. Dressrosa Island has been more powerful than Fishman Island for many years due to The Donquixote Pirates. There are also Islands with characters like top Yonkou Commanders and Mihawk. Momoiro Island and Amazon Lily Island are contenders as well. So it's not just about having a lot of foot soldier level characters.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 31, 2017)

Gohara said:


> @ TheWiggian.
> 
> Okay, I'm going to take a different approach to this discussion before addressing your points because I don't think the back and forth points that we're making makes a big enough difference to really change my overall points. As such we're basically splitting hairs. So:
> 
> ...



Iam not gping to spout percentages here since iam not interested in that and can't back them up by manga panels. I agree Luffy rested a bit but he is still nowhere his fresh level. You make  such a thing of Haki when considering it for Yonkous that you seem to forget that LinLin used it to defend herself from Luffy's punch, yet Issho didn't and wasn't even serious in his fight with Luffy, on the other hand, Big Mom was bloodlusted. A huge difference if you ask the majority. 

John Giant is definitely more impressive than that old one. He survived a hit from the WSM and lived to tell about it, that is >>> anything the legendary giant had in terms of feats, portrayal and hype. 
Simple decision.

Why is it unlikely to think about Caramel knowing her job that she did for decades? 
Just because it doesn't fit in your arguments? Manga supports the idea of her knowing exactly what she does, noone found out that she is a treacherous bitch, she also got great connections to the WG. 
Yea strong, hax DF that can't even harm Jinbei, yet you think it will play a role against top tiers. We even got an explanation why it doesn't work on other strong people because they don't fear Big Mom, only fodders do.

Fujitora might not be a C3 members but the points I've brought up before easily go with him aswell. CP9 can't hold a candle to the admirals, they have similarities, yet they've been defeated by pre skip characters with different strenght, the Douriki list supports my claims at this point, while on the other hand the admirals still are undefeated and no list like difference in power is created for them and they still are the WG greatest military force.

Who is levitating except CC who is gas himself? Iam not gonna explain physics to you, since a person that at least ended his 8th grade should know the basics of it, to understand why Kizaru only leviated for the attack he fired at WB. As long as Kizaru haven't shown to use geppou it's very unlikely that he can do it. The only argument you could make up for him and Aokiji is that they can use soru, because they have the feats for it on panel.

The legendary giant has 1 feat, bad for him is that it was the only 1 he could show, its that he couldn't survive a swing to he ground from a toddler. Pretty awesome and definitely a legendary feat.

Indeed, Dressrosa is stronger than fishman island thanks to a superhuman crew that resides on it, take that crew away and the fishmen could easily overrun Dressrosa. It doesn't contradicts my argument i did before.


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## Gohara (Aug 1, 2017)

-Well just because characters don't come out and specify what percentage of power they're at doesn't necessarily mean that we can't rightfully make solid guesses on how battle worn they are. Using Luffy's defensive portrayal throughout the series we can deduce how battle worn his character is in certain situations. Not only has Luffy withstood significantly more wounds than what he had in that scene and still continued matching up against characters but as you're agreeing Luffy also rested for multiple hours. Therefore while Luffy might not have been at full health in that scene he was still far from barely being able to run around. Mentioning how battle worn Luffy's character is after using Gear 4th is mostly irrelevant since Gear 4th uses a lot of energy. Additionally some are now suggesting that Big Mam's character intentionally drained Luffy's energy after blocking the Gear 4th Technique, in which case that would explain that argument. Plus even if you're not convinced of Luffy being around 25% in that scene I am giving your argument the benefit of the doubt with that guess so if it's not 25% then it would likely be more in favor of my point. Due to such a difference between Gear 3rd and Gear 4th whether or not Fujitora uses Haki in that scene is mostly irrelevant.

-My point with CP9 isn't to compare them to the Admirals in terms of power. I obviously agree that the Admirals are far more powerful than CP9. My point is that CP9 is an organization of characters with a lot of comparable aspects as characters like the Admirals and yet they're not exactly equal in terms of power. So it doesn't follow that just because the Admirals have a lot of comparable aspects as characters that they must be exactly equal in terms of power. Especially when a couple of those Admirals are different in some of those aspects such as Ryukugyu and Fujitora.

-Jinbe has ran away from almost every Technique that Big Mam's character has used so far. Jinbe's character was standing there for one of them to profess his faith in Luffy's character as a Pirate King. Big Mam's Devil Fruit Abilities can drain other characters' level of power, can take control of basically any Element, and can insert Souls into basically anything. Big Mam's character can take her already basically invincible defense and fortify it even more through inserting Souls into things like mountains if she wants to. She can insert Souls into a Sun and use it as a weapon. She can insert Souls into Clouds and control the weather. She can insert Souls into battleships and use them as weapons. Devil Fruit Abilities that combine the Ability to drain other characters' level of power upon contact with the Ability to use anything as a weapon with the Ability to use any Element make them some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities in the series.

-What does Caramel being a slave trader have to do with the basic impossibility of adding Abilities to characters that she doesn't know they will have? Especially Devil Fruit Abilities? Not just Devil Fruit Abilities but Devil Fruit Abilities that her character has? There's no way that any character could know that. That has nothing to do with a character's ability to acquire and sell characters.

-The Donquixote Pirates have a legitimate claim to Dressrosa Island. My point in using that example is that an Island with a lot of foot soldiers isn't going to be more powerful than Islands that have a lot more than just foot soldiers such as Dressrosa Island, Wano Country, and even some Yonkou Islands.

-The point of dispute is what's more impressive between not one shotting John Giant and one shotting a legendary Giant character. For either of us to use those as defensive feats for those characters would be circular reasoning. Therefore when comparing John Giant and the legendary Giant character using Whitebeard's and Big Mam's characters as references would be irrelevant. What matters is what we can use to compare John Giant and the legendary Giant character outside of that. Arguing that John Giant would be one of if not the most powerful character on Elbaf Island is very unlikely. Not just for the multiple reasons that I've already mentioned but also because Elbaf Island is one of the main Arcs in the series and the series is already at a point where Vice Admirals aren't anything remarkable in terms of power excluding characters like Garp of course. Oda is hyping up Elbaf Island as the most powerful Island in the series not just through it being literally stated but also using Elbaf Island as an addition to a Yonkou Crew that would basically guarantee them to be a Pirate King Pirate Crew. No matter how one slices it there are almost certainly multiple characters more powerful if not significantly more powerful than John Giant on Elbaf Island. Therefore for a character to be a legendary character on that Island they almost certainly need to be more powerful than almost any Vice Admiral. Even generously assuming that John Giant is around as powerful as that legendary Giant character or even twice as powerful as that character, Big Mam is many tens of times physically stronger than her character was at barely more than a toddler. So unless that legendary Giant character isn't even in the same league as a Marine Captain that would still make Big Mam's character's feat more impressive.

-Smoker's and Caesar Clown's characters have both shown that they can levitate with their Devil Fruit Abilities. Ace has also shot himself like a rocket through a bunch of Ships. Aokiji was able to stay in the air as he froze a tsunami and was still in the air when Whitebeard swatted his character away into ice. If Kizaru only jumped he wouldn't be able to stay in the air for that long to use that Technique. That he was able to do so suggests that his character can at least levitate to some degree. As for Geppou, we've seen that many Vice Admirals and some Admirals know how to use Rokushiki Techniques and even Coby can use Rokushiki Techniques. So the idea that Kizaru can't use other Rokushiki Techniques is very unlikely.

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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2017)

Big Mom wins low to mid diff, fight ends within 10 minutes tops.

Big Mom beat Jinbei in her sleep which puts her closer to healthy old Whitebeard over sick Whiteberd who fell prey to Squard (who while the strongest ally he had and having unknown power, still would not have landed that attack if he was healthy as stated by Marco, even as an ally to cover his intention)

Big Mom's physical defense has been driven up to high heaven.

Big Mom has stronger physical strength than Whitebeard, though loses out in that front when Whitebeard is using the gura gura.

Big Mom has stamina drain.

Big Mom's speed and control while in mid air thanks to Zeus is huge and has a lot of weight to it. She has the advantage in the air over Kizaru.

We'll learn even more about her tomorrow I bet.

It goes:
Kaidou > Big Mom > Shanks and Blackbeard
Big Mom being closer to Kaidou than Shanks and Blackbeard.

Sorry but this is a stomp, Marco had the edge on Kizaru and he's the 5th strongest. (and he might have had to gain strength to become the 5th strongest)
Big Mom on the other hand is the 2nd strongest.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2017)

Gilgamesh said:


> That people unironically legit think she's weaker than the C3, Rayleigh, Mihawk, Dragon, Fuji/GreenBull just shows how fucked this section is
> 
> -snip-​


People downplayed her as the weakest yonkou and I was kind of willing to agree with that before this arc.
However this arc has painted her as a legit Kaidou rival, the 2nd strongest current Yonkou and someone who rivals healthy old Whitebeard.

If everything wasn't going wrong for her and her crew, the Strawhats and Capone would have died years ago, the embarrassments are because they and especially her are so powerful. I mean for fucks sake, she beats legends of the giant race at age 5 (even if said legend was old like she is now)
She has monsterous physical strength
Beat Jinbei in her sleep (which is arguably a more impressive feat than what Whitebeard did to Ace while sleeping, though WHitebeard could have done more back then)
Stamina drain
Godly durability
Zeus, Prometheus, and Napoleon who apparently can't be damaged outside of soul powers.
etc etc.

Seriously, Big Mom is legit Old Healthy WHitebeard Rival leveled. 

Marco had the edge over Kizaru.
Whitebeard beat Akainu despite 1000 and a half nerfs including death threatening health.


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## Skyliner (Aug 3, 2017)

Big mom takes it with high (mid) diff


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## Kai (Aug 3, 2017)

Akitō said:


> The fact that Luffy will likely be fighting and defeating Kaido before defeating an Admiral despite the Admirals being set up as long-time foes who Luffy has never beaten is indicative of their significance and strength.


Don't see how the sequence order of events taking place via what the plot primarily demands is indicative of any relation or comparison between Admiral and Yonko. If we were comparing Shanks being dealt with after Kaido and Big Mom, for example, there's credence to the fact since Shanks also belongs in the Yonko subplot of the series.

The Yonko and Admirals are two completely separate subplots for Luffy to take on. Also like you said the Admirals have been around for awhile. We have seen the Color Admirals at full power, so it's time to witness the extent of the Yonko's powers. I doubt they'll be handled in just one arc either, so they will be around to fight in the future arcs when Luffy goes a level beyond G4.


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 3, 2017)

Kai said:


> Don't see how the sequence order of events taking place via what the plot primarily demands is indicative of any relation or comparison between Admiral and Yonko. If we were comparing Shanks being dealt with after Kaido and Big Mom, for example, there's credence to the fact since Shanks also belongs in the Yonko subplot of the series.
> 
> The Yonko and Admirals are two completely separate subplots for Luffy to take on. Also like you said the Admirals have been around for awhile. We have seen the Color Admirals at full power, so it's time to witness the extent of the Yonko's powers. I doubt they'll be handled in just one arc either, so they will be around to fight in the future arcs when Luffy goes a level beyond G4.


Kaidou is either getting taken down by a disgustingly huge group effort or he's going to win and face Luffy 1 v 1 when he's pretty much pirate king tier.

Meanwhile an admiral might drop with mid diff in a few arcs. There likely won't be an arc where Luffy beats an admiral in the finale, simply that Luffy will defeat someone 1 v 1 and it'll be mentioned that they are admiral leveled.


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## Akitō (Aug 4, 2017)

Kai said:


> Don't see how the sequence order of events taking place via what the plot primarily demands is indicative of any relation or comparison between Admiral and Yonko. If we were comparing Shanks being dealt with after Kaido and Big Mom, for example, there's credence to the fact since Shanks also belongs in the Yonko subplot of the series.
> 
> The Yonko and Admirals are two completely separate subplots for Luffy to take on. Also like you said the Admirals have been around for awhile. We have seen the Color Admirals at full power, so it's time to witness the extent of the Yonko's powers. I doubt they'll be handled in just one arc either, so they will be around to fight in the future arcs when Luffy goes a level beyond G4.



Because generally Luffy gets stronger the deeper in the manga we go and his enemies become progressively more difficult for him to defeat. If an Admiral is set up as the final boss of an arc in the same way as the Yonko have been and that occurs after the Yonko are defeated, it'd be reasonable to assume that the Admiral is around the level of the Yonko (if not stronger depending on how the fight goes) unless Oda wants to build an unimpressive Admiral arc. Even if the Admiral is only the second strongest of that "next arc" and not the main villain, so long as Oda intends for the initial Luffy vs. Admiral fight to be high-diff (which is very likely) and that occurs after Luffy is able to beat a Yonko (which could happen and is what I was speculating on), that would imply some degree of equality between the beaten Admiral and Yonko (e.g. Cracker, the "next arc's" second strongest, is around Doflamingo's level).

Obviously there's plenty of routes that Oda could go with this. This is merely my opinion on how the manga is likely to turn out. Wasn't trying to use my speculation of the sequence and way in which the Admirals/Yonko would be beaten as solid evidence to support the argument that the Admirals are around the level of Yonko. There's plenty of other things that make me believe that besides this.

Reactions: Like 2


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## g4snake108 (Aug 5, 2017)

I am going with Big Mom on this one. The fact that Big mom is actually on equal footing with the other emperors and her commanders appear piss weak when you compare them with lets say kaidous' or WB's commanders suggests that in a clash with a yonkou,Big mom should individually be able to hold her own against the other. That would put her just a bit above kizaru,even though he is going to have the speed advantage.

big mom high-extreme diff


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## Vermilion Kn (Aug 5, 2017)

Kizaru has better feats, period. 

He takes this.

Reactions: Like 3 | Disagree 1


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## Gohara (Aug 6, 2017)

I don't think that it means much what order Luffy matches up against characters in.  I would argue that Enel > Crocodile > Lucci > Moriah but Luffy matches up against them in a different order than that.  Plus we don't even yet know what order of characters Luffy will match up against.  We also don't know if any of the Admirals will be main antagonists of an Arc, Akainu is the only high ranking Marine who stands out as a possible main antagonist for an Arc, but Akainu is a Fleet Admiral.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 6, 2017)

Gohara said:


> I don't think that it means much what order Luffy matches up against characters in.  I would argue that Enel > Crocodile > Lucci > Moriah but Luffy matches up against them in a different order than that.  Plus we don't even yet know what order of characters Luffy will match up against.  We also don't know if any of the Admirals will be main antagonists of an Arc, Akainu is the only high ranking Marine who stands out as a possible main antagonist for an Arc, but Akainu is a Fleet Admiral.


 I think Croc's power got retconned 

Croc > Moriah > Lucci > Eneru > pre-retcon Croc

Reactions: Creative 1


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## Gohara (Aug 6, 2017)

I respectfully disagree and there isn't necessarily any proof of that, it could simply be that some overestimate the power gaps between characters.  Plus I would argue that Enel is the most powerful main antagonist Pre Time Skip.  Great Haki, some of the most powerful Devil Fruit Abilities in the series, and a character who Oda would give a mid Yonkou Commander level bounty to.  Moriah also spent a lot of The Thriller Bark Arc running away from Luffy, to me Lucci seemed like a superior opponent for Luffy's character.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 6, 2017)

Eneru would beat all of the pre skip villains beside maybe Croc because of no CoA 

I think the bounty includes the arc maxim


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## trance (Aug 10, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> Eneru would beat all of the pre skip villains beside maybe Croc because of no CoA



get rid of Logia dispersion and Lucci casually blitzes and crushes Enel

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Tenma (Aug 10, 2017)

BM has better portrayal than Kizaru/Fuji, she's probably superior from a raw power pov

Yeah she's a total fuckup but it still remains that her entire crew couldn't do anything about her rampage while individual YCs have stood up to Kizaru or Fuji. Her blocking a Kong Gun barehanded is also a better strength feat than what both of those have.

If she loses this it will be because of her stupidity. In terms of power she should still be above your average admiral.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> I am going with Big Mom on this one. The fact that Big mom is actually on equal footing with the other emperors and her commanders appear piss weak when you compare them with lets say kaidous' or WB's commanders suggests that in a clash with a yonkou,Big mom should individually be able to hold her own against the other. That would put her just a bit above kizaru,even though he is going to have the speed advantage.
> 
> big mom high-extreme diff


Please tell me what Kaido's commander have done that's so above the sweet commanders..?
Also please tell me what's so piss weak about Katakuri ? Smoothie hasnt even fought yet and you call her weak ?


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Big Mom >>>>>>> Admiral

Let this stomp thread die already.


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## g4snake108 (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Please tell me what Kaido's commander have done that's so above the sweet commanders..?
> Also please tell me what's so piss weak about Katakuri ? Smoothie hasnt even fought yet and you call her weak ?


Yes,because it's more about what they haven't done. They haven't managed to pacify Big mom when she is acting like crazy and moving around town killing her own allies. Smoothie straight up ran away from Big mom when BM was angry after WCT collapsed. Katakuri was too pale and terrified when he in the future with his haki senses saw Big Mom screaming.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes,because it's more about what they haven't done. They haven't managed to pacify Big mom when she is acting like crazy and moving around town killing her own allies. Smoothie straight up ran away from Big mom when BM was angry after WCT collapsed. Katakuri was too pale and terrified when he in the future with his haki senses saw Big Mom screaming.


So jinbei, luffy,Pedro,Sanji and the entirety of tank pirates are also piss weak? 
Running from a yonkou is the only same thing to do when he/she's angry and her crew knows her true power and that they can't "pacify" her unless they give her what she wants? So why stay and die instead of run till a solution is found?

And you still haven't told me what amazing feats Kaido's commander have compared to the sweet commander ? Or you mean the guy who was stupid enough to asault a marine ship with an admiral,ex fleet admiral and tsuru inside? Right


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## g4snake108 (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> So jinbei, luffy,Pedro,Sanji and the entirety of tank pirates are also piss weak?
> Running from a yonkou is the only same thing to do when he/she's angry and her crew knows her true power and that they can't "pacify" her unless they give her what she wants? So why stay and die instead of run till a solution is found?
> 
> And you still haven't told me what amazing feats Kaido's commander have compared to the sweet commander ? Or you mean the guy who was stupid enough to asault a marine ship with an admiral,ex fleet admiral and tsuru inside? Right


Compared to Big Mom? Yes,they are piss weak.

Running when one of your crewmate is dying? What kind of "strong" would you say he is then? If they were decently strong(meaning commander level),you wouldn't run out of fear.

The fact that he survived the attack on the marine ship,fought for 5 days straight and is still possibly the lowest in the 4 ranks of kaidou's crew.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Compared to Big Mom? Yes,they are piss weak.
> 
> Running when one of your crewmate is dying? What kind of "strong" would you say he is then? If they were decently strong(meaning commander level),you wouldn't run out of fear.
> 
> The fact that he survived the attack on the marine ship,fought for 5 days straight and is still possibly the lowest in the 4 ranks of kaidou's crew.


.
She run cause she knew she can't do anything unlike the stupid elephant that was cocky enough to assault that marine ship and prove once again his idiocy...fighting for 5 straight days is nothing special when he couldn't beat the cat and dog and had to resort to underhanded tactics...power isn't measured by how cocky you act but by actual feats...Jack was stupid unlike smoothie...Jack's showings are weaker than crackers let alone the other two...cracker at least managed to fight Luffy (stronger than cat and dog) for 11 hours while extemely weakened and managed to piece G4 something not even DD could do


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## g4snake108 (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> .
> She run cause she knew she can't do anything unlike the stupid elephant that was cocky enough to assault that marine ship and prove once again his idiocy...fighting for 5 straight days is nothing special when he couldn't beat the cat and dog and had to resort to underhanded tactics...power isn't measured by how cocky you act but by actual feats...Jack was stupid unlike smoothie...Jack's showings are weaker than crackers let alone the other two...cracker at least managed to fight Luffy (stronger than cat and dog) for 11 hours while extemely weakened and managed to piece G4 something not even DD could do


It still portrays as a better feat since he survived. I am not saying he attacked and went 3 vs 1 against fuji and all,but the fact that he still made it out and got back to zou is noteworthy when you compare it to whatever the 3 sweets have shown.

She could have saved her nakama and run away..She just ran meaning a second commander isn't even that sure in her abilities.
The cat and the dog both admitted that Jack was the one being they could not hold back and could not keep his advancements in check. Fighting for 5 days straight is waay better a feat that 12 hours of fighting. Almost 10 times better.


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## Kylo Ren (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> Yes,because it's more about what they haven't done. They haven't managed to pacify Big mom when she is acting like crazy and moving around town killing her own allies. Smoothie straight up ran away from Big mom when BM was angry after WCT collapsed. Katakuri was too pale and terrified when he in the future with his haki senses saw Big Mom screaming.



That's the thing BM pirates seems okay keep lying to each other they are a fucked up family, look at the kids on WCI they want to kill each other. true that Smoothie run and Katakuri is lookin' pale but that doesn't mean they are weak.



Bernkastel said:


> She run cause she knew she can't do anything unlike the stupid elephant that was cocky enough to assault that marine ship and prove once again his idiocy



And also this it's looks like the Yonko have specific theme on them. Kaido crew seems stupid strength while BMP are smart but never really care much on each other like the strawhat crew treat each other and both strong on their on way.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Muah (Aug 10, 2017)

Bmig mom midd high diff. You guys are stupid.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> .
> She run cause she knew she can't do anything unlike the stupid elephant that was cocky enough to assault that marine ship and prove once again his idiocy...fighting for 5 straight days is nothing special when he couldn't beat the cat and dog and had to resort to underhanded tactics...power isn't measured by how cocky you act but by actual feats...Jack was stupid unlike smoothie...Jack's showings are weaker than crackers let alone the other two...cracker at least managed to fight Luffy (stronger than cat and dog) for 11 hours while extremely weakened and managed to piece G4 something not even DD could do


Is Jack stupid if he arguably freed Doflamingo and he was clearly shown later with his ship intact and in good shape? Sounds like he either won the marine attack or due to being a top tier, he is tanky enough where outside of yonkou, it would take at least hours or days to actually put him down. I mean it took Akainu 10 days to drop Aokiji. 

Inu and Neko are top commander leveled, albeit lower end like Cracker and not someone like Marco leveled. Also Jack was stronger than both, for example when Nekomamushi showed up to replace Inuarashi (or whatever), Inu was gasping heavily and was covered in battle wounds. On the other end, Jack looked 100% fresh both as far as damage and stamina. And Neko is = Inu. I'd also argue that he didn't use awakening considering that's a decent boost and he was beating them without it seemingly, so he also has another huge boost as well (probably used it against ishoo, sengoku, and tsuru)

Kaidou's showings are weaker than a lot of people, Cracker has had a full fight to his defeat while Jack has only been hyped up some for a future fight he'll have that'll be shown more. 

Again, people act like Jack is stupid but he ended up being right about raizou.
Again, people act like Jack is in over his head, but he doesn't seem to fear death and he destroyed multiple of the marine ships and got away fine. He even potentially saved Doflamingo as well (though maybe with the goal of Kaidou wanting to kill him)

But yeah, that cat and dog were high ranking underlings to Oden, one of like 3 people who could stand on equal ground with Roger and who also had the voice of all. 

Jack didn't show any idiocy or cockiness considering he was able to handle the marine forces that he attacked. If someone is capable of doing something, it's not stupid. 

So yeah, your arguments i kind of shit. 

Inu got the same hype that Cracker did by Luffy and Luffy only did that twice (those two)

But yeah, Jack is objectively > Cracker at this point.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

12zoro said:


> It still portrays as a better feat since he survived. I am not saying he attacked and went 3 vs 1 against fuji and all,but the fact that he still made it out and got back to zou is noteworthy when you compare it to whatever the 3 sweets have shown.
> 
> She could have saved her nakama and run away..She just ran meaning a second commander isn't even that sure in her abilities.
> The cat and the dog both admitted that Jack was the one being they could not hold back and could not keep his advancements in check. Fighting for 5 days straight is waay better a feat that 12 hours of fighting. Almost 10 times better.


No what's noteworthy is how stupid Jack is...and we have no idea how he survived but he propably was saved/run away or simply pis...no matter the case the feat is sad and shows how stupid he is rather than anything else...
Your arguments of smoothie being weak is simply her running away from her captain when enraged? I told you many times that being smart and knowing your limits isn't weakness but strength...
They couldn't put him down but they themselves said that they were winning if it wasnt for that poison weapon...he didn't put a scratch on them...on the other hand cracker fought 11 hours but that while being extremely weakened and he would've won if not for plot...also g4 > cat/dog ..fighting without acomplishing anything for 5 days and having to use underhanded tactics to finally win is as trashy as you can get...so far you haven't given a single feat that shows superiority over cracker let alone the two strongest sweet commanders..all I see is smoothie feared BM so is weak and Katakuri was pale and scared so he's weak...really bruh?


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Is Jack stupid if he arguably freed Doflamingo and he was clearly shown later with his ship intact and in good shape? Sounds like he either won the marine attack or due to being a top tier, he is tanky enough where outside of yonkou, it would take at least hours or days to actually put him down. I mean it took Akainu 10 days to drop Aokiji.
> 
> Inu and Neko are top commander leveled, albeit lower end like Cracker and not someone like Marco leveled. Also Jack was stronger than both, for example when Nekomamushi showed up to replace Inuarashi (or whatever), Inu was gasping heavily and was covered in battle wounds. On the other end, Jack looked 100% fresh both as far as damage and stamina. And Neko is = Inu. I'd also argue that he didn't use awakening considering that's a decent boost and he was beating them without it seemingly, so he also has another huge boost as well (probably used it against ishoo, sengoku, and tsuru)
> 
> ...


So much speculation...he didn't free DD unless shown otherwise...he failed miserably without harming any of the admirals..destroying ships is pre ts level which is nothing special...he is stupid for attack that marine ship since he had no way of freeing DD and would have been killed if not for plot..


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> No what's noteworthy is how stupid Jack is...and we have no idea how he survived but he propably was saved/run away or simply pis...no matter the case the feat is sad and shows how stupid he is rather than anything else...
> Your arguments of smoothie being weak is simply her running away from her captain when enraged? I told you many times that being smart and knowing your limits isn't weakness but strength...
> They couldn't put him down but they themselves said that they were winning if it wasnt for that poison weapon...he didn't put a scratch on them...on the other hand cracker fought 11 hours but that while being extremely weakened and he would've won if not for plot...also g4 > cat/dog ..fighting without acomplishing anything for 5 days and having to use underhanded tactics to finally win is as trashy as you can get...so far you haven't given a single feat that shows superiority over cracker let alone the two strongest sweet commanders..all I see is smoothie feared BM so is weak and Katakuri was pale and scared so he's weak...really bruh?


So you going to stop calling Jack stupid anytime soon? On account that you have no actual evidence to prove he's stupid, y'know. 

He's not stupid if he was right about Raizou
He's not cocky if he survived the battle with his ship in perfect condition and him in good shape.

Regarding Zunisha, that was a surprise to him. He thought Zunisha was some regular giant elephant who was decayed, which he could deal with. However Zunisha ended up being a legit god tier character. (the best kenbunshoku haki feat to date, self inflicted punishment that no one but himself holds himself to even under fire show his stamina along with willpower as a warrior, etc etc)

Let's be honest, Zunisha is big but Jack lost because Zunisha turned out to be an absolute god tier, not because he was big.

They are wrong though as well. Katakuri > Smoothie > Cracker > Snack for the sweet commanders. 

Also no, they didn't say they were winning. They specifically said they kept wiping out Jack's forces but that they kept being replaced while Jack consistently was on the battlefield and didn't slow down at all.  "he didn't put a scratch on them"
Just outright wrong:
interview 

He wasn't even using anything like awakened zoan which he probably does have. 

Do you have any evidence that says G4 Luffy is stronger than Neko and Inu? Because I'd say that they individually could beat Luffy and are individually Cracker leveled. 

Jack got bored and use poison cuz he was fighting for 5 days and 5 nights and just wanted blood. 

Jack vs the minks was off panel. 
Inu was hyped in the exact same way as Cracker was by Luffy though, the only time Luffy went "this person is strong" without seeing them fight by sensing them. 

Sorry but Jack was fighting 2 Crackers pretty much, heck he was actually fighting more than that considering they had multiple people who were stronger than the next strongest of Jack's underling. Jack's strongest underling at the time was only Brook leveled so he was pretty much powering at them with numbers and his own strength. 

So yeah, you're both wrong.
You're underestimated Jack.
He's underestimating Smoothie.
Jack is probably around Katakuri leveled if not stronger (if he ends up being the first mate)


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 10, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> So much speculation...he didn't free DD unless shown otherwise...he failed miserably without harming any of the admirals..destroying ships is pre ts level which is nothing special...he is stupid for attack that marine ship since he had no way of freeing DD and would have been killed if not for plot..


If you want to being manipulative and lying like that, I'll shit on your logic.

Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru combined were unable to harm Jack (canon) while their actual shape is completely unknown, while unlikely they could all be dead right now. You see Jack was shown to be fine, we haven't seen Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru though. To say he didn't harm them is pure fan fiction considering it was never revealed.

Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru were unable to stop Jack from destroying multiple of their ships, one of which might have had Doflamingo in it. Also destroying ships is actually high tier leveled, ie above the levels of any strawhats pre timeskip.

"he is stupid for attack that marine ship since he had no way of freeing DD and would have been killed if not for plot"
1) Prove he didn't free Doflamingo
2) Prove there was no chance he could free Doflamingo, I mean even if you downplay Jack, he could still hang with the admirals enough to go in there, free Doflamingo, then escape.
3) Prove he didn't beat them

I mean to say "lol he survived because of plot" when we don't even know what happened is stupid, that said Jack was fine when we saw him. The newspapers who are directly related to the world government reported their success and Jack's death despite the fact that Jack had his ship in perfect condition still and Jack was in good shape. Ie the newspaper was a lie.

Sorry you can only spew shitty fan fiction instead of fact. Jack was not in over his head, he attacked them, destroyed multiple of their ships, his ship was fine, he was fine, his strongest underlings were fine, and then he left. This was after expending his forces against the minks and have a 5 day fight.

I like how you blame me for speculation when I'm stating facts and you're making shit up.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 10, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> If you want to being manipulative and lying like that, I'll shit on your logic.
> 
> Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru combined were unable to harm Jack (canon) while their actual shape is completely unknown, while unlikely they could all be dead right now. You see Jack was shown to be fine, we haven't seen Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru though. To say he didn't harm them is pure fan fiction considering it was never revealed.
> 
> ...


So you have norhing to say other than speculation and ifs...the burden of proof is on you not me...you stated zero facts just your own fanfic of what happened...he never freed DD,he never beat the admirals and he was never fine...give me panels of your so called facts proving these things and I'll concede ..oh wait you can't cause it never happened.

Reactions: Like 2


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 10, 2017)

Kyouko said:


> get rid of Logia dispersion and Lucci casually blitzes and crushes Enel


 I agree


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## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Don Elson said:


> That's the thing BM pirates seems okay keep lying to each other they are a fucked up family, look at the kids on WCI they want to kill each other. true that Smoothie run and Katakuri is lookin' pale but that doesn't mean they are weak.


I am saying their *portrayal appears *to be weak. And one could argue that running away is exactly that.



Bernkastel said:


> No what's noteworthy is how stupid Jack is...and we have no idea how he survived but he propably was saved/run away or simply pis...no matter the case the feat is sad and shows how stupid he is rather than anything else...
> Your arguments of smoothie being weak is simply her running away from her captain when enraged? I told you many times that being smart and knowing your limits isn't weakness but strength...
> They couldn't put him down but they themselves said that they were winning if it wasnt for that poison weapon...he didn't put a scratch on them...on the other hand cracker fought 11 hours but that while being extremely weakened and he would've won if not for plot...also g4 > cat/dog ..fighting without acomplishing anything for 5 days and having to use underhanded tactics to finally win is as trashy as you can get...so far you haven't given a single feat that shows superiority over cracker let alone the two strongest sweet commanders..all I see is smoothie feared BM so is weak and Katakuri was pale and scared so he's weak...really bruh?


Again,their portrayal is weak. The commanders are strong,but you have one taken out by urouge,the other getting knocked out by luffy ,the other 2 running.

No.They specifically said that jack was the one who was not being stopped or contained. The other battles had started to go in the minks' favour. So maybe jack used the gas to get to the results quickly. G4 may be better than Inu/neko,but luffy can stay for a very short period in G4,after that he becomes weak enough to not be able to move around. So for the majority of the bout,all cracker had to do(assuming luffy used every chance to go to G4) was try to beat nami and kill the members of the seducing woods supporting her.Again,not that impressive of a feat or luffy did not go into G4 that often to keep cracker occupied and you would have to sell me hard to convince g2/g3 luffy is better than the minks inu/neko.

Compare that(running away by the strongest commanders) to the (weakest) commander who is going up against 2 admiral level threats,which portrayal is better? Running away letting your crewmates and the island you are on being killed/destroyed or trying to save a member(albeit a not respected one i guess) from 2 admirals?


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> I am saying their *portrayal appears *to be weak. And one could argue that running away is exactly that.
> 
> 
> Again,their portrayal is weak. The commanders are strong,but you have one taken out by urouge,the other getting knocked out by luffy ,the other 2 running.
> ...


I've said it countless times to the point it's becoming tiring ...running away from your enraged captain is smart not weak...obviously the former is better...running straight to the admirals with zero chances of succeeding is the stupidest thing to do for a commander of his status,if Chopper tried to do the same and failing miserably would you call him strong? Trying to go against such a force is simply reckless and has nothing to do with strength ..getting one shot by Luffy after 11 hours of fighting in a weakened state >>> getting oneshot by zunisha unless zunisha is stated to be some top tier beast

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## PwnGoatVSPandaman (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> So you have norhing to say other than speculation and ifs...the burden of proof is on you not me...you stated zero facts just your own fanfic of what happened...he never freed DD,he never beat the admirals and he was never fine...give me panels of your so called facts proving these things and I'll concede ..oh wait you can't cause it never happened.


Are you claiming that your argument isn't speculation and what ifs?

The facts:
Jack attacked Ishoo, Sengoku, and Tsuru
Jack was fine after being shown later and so was his ship
Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru haven't been seen since
Doflamingo hasn't been seen since.

So at the very least they failed to actually defeat him or his ship while he destroyed multiple of their ships.

"he never freed DD"
You have no evidence.

"he never beat the admirals and he was never fine"
His ship was untouched and he was preparing to cut down Zunisha in good shape.

Him not defeating the admirals and freeing DD never happened, nor have any of those characters been shown since. You can't just go "we weren't shown the fight, so I'm going to make up bullshit about the fight", that's fucking stupid.

You keep saying Jack had zero chance of succeeding but you haven't proven that he had or has zero chance of succeeding, for all we know Doflamingo is free and one of them if not all 3 are dead.

Lol at saying I'm using speculation and what ifs while that's literally your entire argument, except you're being a fucking idiot and acting like those things are facts.

The burden of proof isn't on me, it's on you, Jack was shown to be fine, the others weren't. I'm basing my argument based on what we have while you're literally just going "lol no admirals"

The burden of proof is ENTIRELY on you, for all we know Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru are dead right now.

Zunisha >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luffy
Zunisha has walked for 1000+ years, which is a willpower and stamina feat
Zunisha demonstrated god tier kenbunshoku both in the ability to locate Momo who is so small relative to him, and to allow him to see through his eyes to show him the threat.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Are you claiming that your argument isn't speculation and what ifs?
> 
> The facts:
> Jack attacked Ishoo, Sengoku, and Tsuru
> ...


 
So that's your definition of fine? 
If someone like DD was free we would know it..I'd someone like Issho,tsuru or sengoku we're dead we would know...use your brain for once or you only have it for fanfic ?


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## Nox (Aug 11, 2017)

PwnGoatVSPandaman said:


> Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru combined were unable to harm Jack (canon) while their actual shape is completely unknown, while unlikely they could all be dead right now. You see Jack was shown to be fine, we haven't seen Sengoku, Ishoo, and Tsuru though.



If walking around with bandages constitutes being fine then sure. The original rescue mission comprised of one ship. Unsurprising considering this was an ambush/rescue mission. The Marine's shape would fall somewhere between being fine and not presumed dead; as per newspapers.

Reactions: Like 3


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## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> I've said it countless times to the point it's becoming tiring ...running away from your enraged captain is smart not weak...obviously the former is better...running straight to the admirals with zero chances of succeeding is the stupidest thing to do for a commander of his status,if Chopper tried to do the same and failing miserably would you call him strong? Trying to go against such a force is simply reckless and has nothing to do with strength ..getting one shot by Luffy after 11 hours of fighting in a weakened state >>> getting oneshot by zunisha unless zunisha is stated to be some top tier beast


And I have said it the same amount of times before-the portrayal appears weak. Maybe for you,it is just smart. For me,running away when your crewmate is dying is being weak. Even usopp was running away from MS merry christmas,until he was told that luffy was dead(or other situations). He(usopp) still remains weak,but,the portrayal of him running away is the author showing us that he actually is weak,till the time he has something to fight for.

And no,jack was not oneshot by zunisha,he is a DF user and was immobilized by falling in the water.He is even shown to be angry and waiting for someone to come get him out.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And I have said it the same amount of times before-the portrayal appears weak. Maybe for you,it is just smart. For me,running away when your crewmate is dying is being weak. Even usopp was running away from MS merry christmas,until he was told that luffy was dead(or other situations). He(usopp) still remains weak,but,the portrayal of him running away is the author showing us that he actually is weak,till the time he has something to fight for.
> 
> And no,jack was not oneshot by zunisha,he is a DF user and was immobilized by falling in the water.He is even shown to be angry and waiting for someone to come get him out.


Whatever...so shs were weak for running from Kizaru,the WB crew was weak for running from MF,BB was weak running from Shanks,Law was weak running from Issho and DD..zunisha didn't magically send him in the water...he threw him in there with his trunk what logic is this? He was easily swept away and damaged and would be dead if not for his crew to save him by an almost dead animal ...you have avl very strange view of strong/weak portrayal


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And I have said it the same amount of times before-the portrayal appears weak. Maybe for you,it is just smart. For me,running away when your crewmate is dying is being weak. Even usopp was running away from MS merry christmas,until he was told that luffy was dead(or other situations). He(usopp) still remains weak,but,the portrayal of him running away is the author showing us that he actually is weak,till the time he has something to fight for.
> 
> And no,jack was not oneshot by zunisha,he is a DF user and was immobilized by falling in the water.He is even shown to be angry and waiting for someone to come get him out.


Whatever...so shs were weak for running from Kizaru,the WB crew was weak for running from MF,BB was weak running from Shanks,Law was weak running from Issho and DD..zunisha didn't magically send him in the water...he threw him in there with his trunk what logic is this? He was easily swept away and damaged and would be dead if not for his crew to save him by an almost dead animal ...you have a very strange view of strong/weak portrayal


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## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> Whatever...so shs were weak for running from Kizaru,the WB crew was weak for running from MF,BB was weak running from Shanks,Law was weak running from Issho and DD..zunisha didn't magically send him in the water...he threw him in there with his trunk what logic is this? He was easily swept away and damaged and would be dead if not for his crew to save him by an almost dead animal ...you have a very strange view of strong/weak portrayal


No. again,you are not getting the point. There are no other feats of the commanders except for running away. Who do you know that has fought the commanders of BM on panel? If the only feat of all the characters you mentioned above was running away and nothing else,then yes,for me,considering Oda uses his drawings of running away to portray the fleeing team as weak,they will appear weak.

Swept away =/= damage and certainly not equal to being knocked out. Cracker was knocked out cold. Zunisha hit Jacks ship and we see him lying immobilized and thinking and perfectly conscious-not out cold. There is no panel evidence of zunisha beating a commander.


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> No. again,you are not getting the point. There are no other feats of the commanders except for running away. Who do you know that has fought the commanders of BM on panel? If the only feat of all the characters you mentioned above was running away and nothing else,then yes,for me,considering Oda uses his drawings of running away to portray the fleeing team as weak,they will appear weak.
> 
> Swept away =/= damage and certainly not equal to being knocked out. Cracker was knocked out cold. Zunisha hit Jacks ship and we see him lying immobilized and thinking and perfectly conscious-not out cold. There is no panel evidence of zunisha beating a commander.


 
That's what an old almost dead animal did to him ..he survived due to him being a fishman...so your only argument of them being weak is cause they have no feats and run from their captain when enraged? The only one not having feats is smoothie btw...katakuri had fought and dominated every fight...dragon doesn't have feats either nor does Kong or most of the SN post ts...are they piss weak? Anyway I think it's time to end this stupid debate...I'm here debating with someone who think the top commanders of a yonkou are piss weak...


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## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> That's what an old almost dead animal did to him ..he survived due to him being a fishman...so your only argument of them being weak is cause they have no feats and run from their captain when enraged? The only one not having feats is smoothie btw...katakuri had fought and dominated every fight...dragon doesn't have feats either nor does Kong or most of the SN post ts...are they piss weak? Anyway I think it's time to end this stupid debate...I'm here debating with someone who think the top commanders of a yonkou are piss weak...


And the next panel of him we see is him literally just being angry at being immobilized by zou. Not knocking out a commander. That is like saying if usopp and Kidd were to have a fight on a ship in the waters and usopp burns down the ship and takes kid down with it,he is stronger than kidd. The reason jack needs help is because he is a DF user in water,not because he is hurt.

Then you did not get my point of the original post at all. I said the commanders appear piss weak when we compare them with other commanders.I am not comparing them to the middle trio or anything. I am comparing them to other commanders who are basically just a step below the admirals and saying they *appear weak *in support to my argument that if it ever came to BM pirates going against any of the other yonkou,it cannot be expected of the BM commanders to win their fights against the opposite commanders and then try to help BM in her fight with the other yonkou. Thus BM should be near the level of other yonkou's,putting herself a bit above kizaru.


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## xmysticgohanx (Aug 11, 2017)

The reason Jack was said to be dead is because they didn't know he was a fishman. They most likely sent him to the water and that was that.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Aug 11, 2017)

xmysticgohanx said:


> The reason Jack was said to be dead is because they didn't know he was a fishman. They most likely sent him to the water and that was that.



This. 

And the fact that the marines were more concerned with ensuring that Doflamingo was safely transported rather than risk losing him by engaging in a pointless conflict with the beast pirates. 

Really don't understand why people hype that clash so much in Jack's favour. He had the element of surprise so sinking a marine ship or two isn't impressive and it was a sea battle so it's highly unlikely he even got the opportunity to come face to face with either Fuji or Sengoku.

More likely Fujitora sunk his ship using his gravity powers (fuck around the waves surrounding it) and went off on his way leaving Jack to stew underwater until he got picked up.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3 | Disagree 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And the next panel of him we see is him literally just being angry at being immobilized by zou. Not knocking out a commander. That is like saying if usopp and Kidd were to have a fight on a ship in the waters and usopp burns down the ship and takes kid down with it,he is stronger than kidd. The reason jack needs help is because he is a DF user in water,not because he is hurt.
> 
> Then you did not get my point of the original post at all. I said the commanders appear piss weak when we compare them with other commanders.I am not comparing them to the middle trio or anything. I am comparing them to other commanders who are basically just a step below the admirals and saying they *appear weak *in support to my argument that if it ever came to BM pirates going against any of the other yonkou,it cannot be expected of the BM commanders to win their fights against the opposite commanders and then try to help BM in her fight with the other yonkou. Thus BM should be near the level of other yonkou's,putting herself a bit above kizaru.


You literally see him coughing blood and having parts of him broken ..he's a durability monster though so obviously he wouldn't die but the fact is he lost the battle by getting knocked the fucked out bleeding by zunisha...the same way Luffy knocked out cracker but didn't kill him ...or you think cracker died? I doubt it...I just find it stupid to say they're weak to others when all we've seen from other commanders is Jack who hasnt done anything spectacular ...other than acting cocky and having extremely high durability/stamina/endurance


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## g4snake108 (Aug 11, 2017)

Bernkastel said:


> You literally see him coughing blood and having parts of him broken ..he's a durability monster though so obviously he wouldn't die but the fact is he lost the battle by getting knocked the fucked out bleeding by zunisha...the same way Luffy knocked out cracker but didn't kill him ...or you think cracker died? I doubt it...I just find it stupid to say they're weak to others when all we've seen from other commanders is Jack who hasnt done anything spectacular ...other than acting cocky and having extremely high durability/stamina/endurance


And luffy coughed up blood when bellamy punched him at Dressrosa as the most recent example of people who are waay weaker still making someone blood a bit. There are many if you go through the manga such as those.That in no way is even close to saying he is knocked out by zou. Cracker was knocked out cold and couldn't fight being unconscious. jack was unable to fight back due to the fact he was immobilized because of being underwater. A big difference and nowhere even close.Unless,like I said,you think usopp wins against kidd in the example I gave above or you think nami would win the fight with luffy when they entered the GL since she knocked luffy into the sea multiple times because of luffy's idiotic behaviour(breaking the log pose etc) and sanji had to save him.

And I never forced my opinion of them(BM commanders) appearing piss weak when compared to other commanders on you.Since we have yet to see most of them fight,its an interpretation of the things shown to us till now unlike most of the vs threads.

Jack has a bounty higher than even the second strongest commander of the BM(smoothie) and comparable with katakuri. That along with his 5 day fights and his portrayal of trying to get doffy out against insurmountable odds like an admiral and others,though stupid, is a much better portrayal than whatever has been shown of the BM commanders till now,which has been running around scared.Jack is the third strongest of his commanders and the that hypes up the other commanders of kaidou even more.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bernkastel (Aug 11, 2017)

12zoro said:


> And luffy coughed up blood when bellamy punched him at Dressrosa as the most recent example of people who are waay weaker still making someone blood a bit. There are many if you go through the manga such as those.That in no way is even close to saying he is knocked out by zou. Cracker was knocked out cold and couldn't fight being unconscious. jack was unable to fight back due to the fact he was immobilized because of being underwater. A big difference and nowhere even close.Unless,like I said,you think usopp wins against kidd in the example I gave above or you think nami would win the fight with luffy when they entered the GL since she knocked luffy into the sea multiple times because of luffy's idiotic behaviour(breaking the log pose etc) and sanji had to save him.
> 
> And I never forced my opinion of them(BM commanders) appearing piss weak when compared to other commanders on you.Since we have yet to see most of them fight,its an interpretation of the things shown to us till now unlike most of the vs threads.
> 
> Jack has a bounty higher than even the second strongest commander of the BM(smoothie) and comparable with katakuri. That along with his 5 day fights and his portrayal of trying to get doffy out against insurmountable odds like an admiral and others,though stupid, is a much better portrayal than whatever has been shown of the BM commanders till now,which has been running around scared.Jack is the third strongest of his commanders and the that hypes up the other commanders of kaidou even more.


Luffy coughed up blood cause he wasn't trying against him and holding back due to cis .. anyway this is going circles and gets repetitive so I'm done here since I don't plan on saying the same thing again and again .. we'll soon see who's right and wrong


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