# THE MAN, THE MYTH, THE JOUNIN?



## Soul (Oct 12, 2019)

Welcome ladies and gentlemen.
We are here to get a grasp on Kakashi's rating across users. This is an unrestricted WA Kakashi
This thread is NOT to make fun nor ride any real or fictional character, I just want you to answer the poll within the thread and MAYBE state your reasoning. Please do not make this a shit fest of memes no matter how lewd it is.

Thanks for playing.

Reactions: Kage 1


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Oct 12, 2019)

Mid Kage.


----------



## Charmed (Oct 12, 2019)

It depends which version of Kakashi.
PT 1 -> Rusty Elite Jounin.
BoS -> Elite Jounin
PA -> Low Kage (?)
WA -> Low Kage and prolly close to Mid Kage because of Kamui.

The reason why I rank him as kage is only because of Kamui, since his other skills never changed that much since he was introduced in the series.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Architect (Oct 12, 2019)

WA MS Kakashi: High Kage+ to Low demi-god 
WA 3T Kakashi: Mid Kage

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Soul (Oct 12, 2019)

This is an unrestricted WA Kakashi.


----------



## ~Kakashi~ (Oct 12, 2019)

P1 - Elite Jounin. Intellect and feinting allows him to fight a bit above his pay grade but ultimately his stamina is far too low to win against any kage.
BoS to PA - Rock bottom of low kage. Stamina improved some, and an imperfect kamui gives him some level of hacks. Despite slight stamina improvement, still lower than practically every other kage level in that regard, and as shown against Deidara and Kakuzu, would need kamui to land to win a fight on that level.
WA - Mid kage. Large stamina buff and perfected kamui allow him to jump a considerable amount. Can now fight and beat the likes of the mid tier akatsuki without kamui being his only hope.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2019)

Soul said:


> This is an unrestricted WA Kakashi.



He's comparable to living Itachi. 

So high Kage, but on the lower end.


----------



## t0xeus (Oct 12, 2019)

~Kakashi~ said:


> P1 - Elite Jounin. Intellect and feinting allows him to fight a bit above his pay grade but ultimately his stamina is far too low to win against any kage.
> BoS to PA - Rock bottom of low kage. Stamina improved some, and an imperfect kamui gives him some level of hacks. Despite slight stamina improvement, still lower than practically every other kage level in that regard, and as shown against Deidara and Kakuzu, would need kamui to land to win a fight on that level.
> WA - Mid kage. Large stamina buff and perfected kamui allow him to jump a considerable amount. Can now fight and beat the likes of the mid tier akatsuki without kamui being his only hope.


Agree with this


----------



## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

Low Kage.

Also I want to add that the more I see @Turrin against the board on Kakashi being Jonin-level I get the feeling it's more of a disagreement on what he actually calls their level and less on who he actually beats or not.

If I'm not mistaken, the only characters I think Kakashi can beat while Turrin doesn't are probably Konan, IA Naruto while I don't think we disagree on anything else regarding who beats him (correct me if I'm wrong). I just call him low kage while he calls him top jonin. I think it's no different than rating a mid kage as low kage or a high kage as mid kage it just sounds worse because the word "kage" isn't there.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> Low Kage.
> 
> Also I want to add that the more I see @Turrin against the board on Kakashi being Jonin-level I get the feeling it's more of a disagreement on what he actually calls their level and less on who he actually beats or not.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the only characters I think Kakashi can beat while Turrin doesn't are probably Konan, IA Naruto while I don't think we disagree on anything else regarding who beats him (correct me if I'm wrong). I just call him low kage while he calls him top jonin. I think it's no different than rating a mid kage as low kage or a high kage as mid kage it just sounds worse because the word "kage" isn't there.



Which is complete nonsense given that the manga defined him as Kage level even before the war arc. 

What Turrin is doing is re-defining what the manga informed us about. It's more than just linguistic choice. And your comparison doesn't work given that Kage level is a separate umbrella term altogether.


----------



## Soul (Oct 12, 2019)

We do have two votes for Jounin, so it's not like Turrin is alone here

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Which is complete nonsense given that the manga defined him as Kage level even before the war arc.
> 
> What Turrin is doing is re-defining what the manga informed us about. It's more than just linguistic choice. And your comparison doesn't work given that Kage level is a separate umbrella term altogether.


I agree that Pain Arc Kakashi is Kage-level based on his nomination after that arc, it's why I have WA Kakashi as Low Kage and PA Kakashi (even IA Kakashi) as entry Kage-level.

I'm just saying that in terms of match ups Turrin isn't severely underrating Kakashi.


----------



## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

Soul said:


> We do have two votes for Jounin, so it's not like Turrin is alone here


Should have made the voting public.


----------



## Vice (Oct 12, 2019)

I feel pretty comfortable putting him at low Kage tier.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> I agree that Pain Arc Kakashi is Kage-level based on his nomination after that arc, it's why I have WA Kakashi as Low Kage and PA Kakashi (even IA Kakashi) as entry Kage-level.
> 
> I'm just saying that in terms of match ups Turrin isn't severely underrating Kakashi.



He is severely underrating him but there's probably no need to further this conversation since we have such different opinions on that matter. 

Where the issue stems from is his labelling. *It's factually incorrect*.

You saying Kakashi loses to Jiraiya is an opinion. 

Turrin saying Kakashi is not Kage level is factually inconsistent with the manga and should be repelled by all members of the board.


----------



## Soul (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> Should have made the voting public.



Remember we don't want to make fun of people. I am interested of the people's opinions.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

I don't have a midkage, thoughb that's where I voted. I think there are more tiers.

I definitely have him with Gai/Kisame. At the moment I would have.
*
Tier*
Kinkaku
Ginkaku
Orochimaru
Jiraiya
Sandaime Raikage

*Tier*
Tobirama
Onoki
Tsunade

*Tier*
Ay
Muu
Gengetsu
Kakashi/Kisame/Gai
Gaara
*
*


----------



## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I don't have a midkage, thoughb that's where I voted. I think there are more tiers.
> 
> I definitely have him with Gai/Kisame. At the moment I would have.
> *
> ...


Are those tiers in ascending or descending order?


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Oct 12, 2019)

kamui makes him low kage


----------



## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> Are those tiers in ascending or descending order?


Yes, but Sandaime Raikage should be below Orochimaru and Jiraiya.

Kinakaku and Ginkaku are probably the most underrated characters on this board, but that is for a different thread.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Turrin saying Kakashi is not Kage level is factually inconsistent with the manga and should be repelled by all members of the board.



What exactly are you referring to?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 12, 2019)

Look man if you want honest Discourse. Here's why I label Kakashi 'Jonin level'.

First some-one needs to understand the nature of the 'Kage' title. And the fact that in the Manga it clearly represents something different then it does in the NBD. In the manga someone can earn the 'Kage' title by being the most capable of protecting and almost more importantly running the village. While in the NBD, usually 'Kage' level refers to someone that is able to beat Shinobi who hold the Kage title 1v1; or are overall superior Ninja under various conditions.

I'm highlighting this distinction because many people will cite that Tsunade believed Kakashi could be Hokage or how Kakashi was nearly nominated Temp-Hokage, as evidence that he is 'Kage level'. But in reality it isn't actually evidence that he is 'Kage level', just that he could hold the 'Kage title'. Tsunade and the others have faith that Kakashi could rise to the occasion and protect the village and is capable of running it, if he were to become Hokage. But that doesn't mean he posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we have seen in the story. 

And as such when I say 'Jonin' level, I mean characters that do not posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we've seen; even if they are stronger then the vast majority of other Shinobi in the verse.
----

With that out of the way, looking at how Kakashi is depicted in the story he simply compares better with Jonin.

 Kakashi main enemy and major solo victory was against the Mist Swordsman Zabuza. Likewise his rival Gai's main enemy and solo victory was against the Mist Swordsman Kisame. Then in the War Kakashi's division is matched up against the Mist Swordsman; and they fight a prolonged battle against the Swordsman; including facing Zabuza again, who Kakashi clearly indicates is still a major threat to him and Gai (even warning Gai to be careful agianst him and asking for help to deal with him quicker). It's pretty obvious that Kishimoto compares Kakashi (& Gai) to the Swordsman; and while Kakashi and Gai beat the swordsman they faced; they never faced the strongest Swordsman at their best ether (Kisame/Fuguki were missing Samehada & Mangetsu was missing Hiramekarei) and they always won with a high degree of difficulty; so it's clear they are close to the Swordsman in 'Power level'.

And I don't believe the Swordsman are 'Kage level'. Zabuza is certainly weaker then any of the Kages we've seen; and Zabuza was stated to be a Genius among the Mist Swordsman, so outside Mangetsu, Fuguki, and Kisame, it seems unlikely that any of the other Swordsman were > Zabuza; and I find it unlikely that were suppose to believe Mangetsu or Fuguki without their Sword exceed Zabuza in strength ether (Zabuza was certainly prioritized as the biggest threat in the War too). 

So that pretty much leaves Kisame; who is a very polarizing character that people place all over the map power wise, but Kisame compares himself to the Swordsman in terms of 'Power level', saying he stands no chance against a Sannin, because he's only a Mist-Swordsman. So it's very hard for me to believe the author;s intent is for Kisame to be much stronger then the other Swordsman when he compares his own strength directly to, well the other Swordsman. . I've also already written a thread about why I think Kisame is 'Jonin level' or at most 'Low-Kage', so i'll  that for people to read as well. 

----
But let's wank Kisame and say he's 'Low Kage level' and the Strongest Swordsman:

A) He was 'beat' by Gai, who Kakashi admitted was better then him in the end

B) If someone wants to wank Kisame which we are doing here. It can be argued that Kisame actually 'beat' Gai in terms of accomplishing his objective, while Gai failed to accomplish his; so I could actually see Kishimoto believing Kisame is the superior Ninja to Gai, even though he 'lost' to Gai in their fight. It can also be argued that Gai was a terrible match up for Kisame or things could have been different if Kisame had his Sword; further justifying the stance that Kishimoto could see Kisame as a superior Ninja, despite his loss to Gai.

Please note: I don't necessarily agree with everything in this point, i'm just saying if were setting out to wank Kisame, there are logical arguments that can be made for Kisame > Gai.

-------

So if we Wank Kisame and say he's well above the other Swordsman, then we can also wank him to be above Gai. Or if we take his word for it and say he's close to the other Swordsman, and is <= Gai, it really doesn't change the overall 'level' of the Swordsman the Masters compare to. 

----

And I really don't see any other accomplishments (outside DMS and 8TH Gate of course) that indicates Kakashi; is above the general 'level', give or take a bit of the Swordsman; I mean every time Kakashi faces any other enemy he ether looses or needs substantial help (Most of the time being saved). Now just because he looses doesn't mean he's inferior to that 'level', but it doesn't show he's on it ether. Really the only arguments for Kakashi being on that 'level' tend to come from his accomplishments in the end game of the War, with fighting the Jinchuuriki and his Kamui 'Feats'.

When it comes to fighting the Jinchuurki, not getting instantly slaughtered is a feat to be sure, but I don't think it's beyond the capabilities of 'Jonin level' Ninja to accomplish; especially since we saw multiple Jonin level Ninja go up against shit like V2 Kinkaku, GM, and even Kitsuchi stalling Juubi (and deflecting it's TBB), without being instantly slaughtered. And while I appreciate the fact that Kakashi fought longer agains the Jinchuuriki off panel, the reason I specifically highlight the '12-hour' time period in which the Masters struggled with the Swordsman when I fuck with Kakashi-Fanboy's, is because it's god-dam obvious that Kishimoto plays fast and loose with the rules off-panel in the War-Arc, in terms of Chakra Consumption / Time / Etc... So how long Kakashi fought the Jinchuuriki off panel is just as meaningless as the 12 hours the Swordman fought the Masters off panel. What matters is the meaning behind each; the meaning is that the Swordsman are suppose to be Tough enemies for the Masters; and it's obvious the Masters won't instantly loose to the Jinchuuriki (But again this isn't beyond what Jonin are capable of).

And when it comes to Kakashi's Feats with 'Kamui', 'Kamui' itself is overrated speed, wise heavily, and I've talked about it before, but it's slower then a Kunai Toss according to Kishimoto; as it needed to have it's speed doubled to out speed TSB, which was equal to a Kunai in speed (shown plainly on the page). And most of Kakashi's other Kamui feats are due to being enhanced by Bijuu Chakra.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Reddan (Oct 12, 2019)

I have skim read your post, but I will read it in depth and reply properly later. There are 3 key things I disagree with.

1. Kisame is mid of the range Kage probably higher for me, but I think he is the outlier in the 7 swordsman and it does not refute your overall point. 
2. I think you are underestimating fight Biju. Only kages level ninjas can do this and sometimes even they need a match up advantage.
3. Kakashi is usually outmatched, but then he improves to reach that level. 

I will reply in depth properly.


----------



## t0xeus (Oct 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man if you want honest Discourse. Here's why I label Kakashi 'Jonin level'.
> 
> First some-one needs to understand the nature of the 'Kage' title. And the fact that in the Manga it clearly represents something different then it does in the NBD. In the manga someone can earn the 'Kage' title by being the most capable of protecting and almost more importantly running the village. While in the NBD, usually 'Kage' level refers to someone that is able to beat Shinobi who hold the Kage title 1v1; or are overall superior Ninja under various conditions.
> 
> ...


This is a very good post and I am having trouble finding any logical inconsistencies or really anything.
I might double-check my stance on masters again after all.


----------



## Braiyan (Oct 12, 2019)

. 

And since the general consensus seems to be that the Sannin are around Mid Kage level, I guess that would make Kakashi Mid Kage level as well.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## blk (Oct 12, 2019)

WA Kakashi is a very versatile shinobi, he has a lot of ninjutsu to cope with many different situations.

His physicals and cqc skills are very good, among the best actually discarding God Tiers and such.

He is skiled in genjutsu, can cast them and defend against them in general.

His intelligence and tactical prowess is also top tier.

His stamina/chakra quantity was a major weak point, but it improved massively in the WA (fighting with ninjutsu spam non stop against the 7 Swordsmen, using Kamui multiple times, etc). He isn't a chakra monster, but at this point he isn't a low chakra character anymore.

And last but not least, he has a final, extremely hax and difficult to defend, ability in Kamui. With which he can punch way higher than his general tier.

So all in all definitely a *Mid Kage* and almost on the same level of the Sannin with his WA improvement. Heck i would argue he is stronger than Tsunade and can definitely compete with base Jiraya.

The fact that he became Hokage even after having lost the Sharingan puts him by default at the Kage level.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I'm highlighting this distinction because many people will cite that Tsunade believed Kakashi could be Hokage or how Kakashi was nearly nominated Temp-Hokage, as evidence that he is 'Kage level'.



Okay.



Turrin said:


> But in reality it isn't actually evidence that he is 'Kage level',



And let's see what would make you say that...
You implicitly proclaim to be knowledgeable than the author



Turrin said:


> just that he could hold the 'Kage title'.



And THIS is the problem with your reasoning. 



Turrin said:


> Tsunade and the others have faith that Kakashi could rise to the occasion and protect the village and is capable of running it, if he were to become Hokage. But that doesn't mean he posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we have seen in the story.



This is akin to me saying that Jiraiya and the others have faith that Tsunade could rise to the occasion and protect the village and is capable of running, if she were to become Hokage (which she did). But that doesn't mean she posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we have seen in the story.

By your logic, Tsunade, a Kage, would not be Kage level.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 12, 2019)

What's incredibly ironic is this:

Out of all the characters you could question about their credentials to be Kage level, you chose the one who is:

A: Confirmed to be capable for the Hokage seat by the current Hokage at the time, and her peer
B: Deemed capable by rival nations, the council, and even Shikaku, the only character in the series who beats Shikimaru at shogi.
C: Ended up being Hokage despite losing his strongest power (The Sharingan).

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## Lee-Sensei (Oct 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> What's incredibly ironic is this:
> 
> Out of all the characters you could question about their credentials to be Kage level, you chose the one who is:
> 
> ...


Ignore them. There’s no real debate about this. Kakashi is Kage level. Anyone that’s still denying this is basically arguing with Kishimoto.


----------



## Kai (Oct 12, 2019)

I have WA Kakashi at the Mid Kage level, next to the Akatsuki members Kisame, Sasori, and Kakuzu all of whom I consider to be Mid Kage. He's also close to Mei and Gaara from the actual Kage IMO. Due to match up situation he can potentially punch into the High Kage range with one or two characters but the drawbacks make Kakashi fighting at that level too inconsistent.

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## Kisame (Oct 12, 2019)

Kai said:


> Due to match up situation he can potentially punch into the High Kage range with one or two characters but the drawbacks make Kakashi fighting at that level too inconsistent.


Who are these characters?


----------



## Trojan (Oct 12, 2019)

there is no reason for anyone to get butthurt over those titles. At the end of the day they literally means nothing...


----------



## Turrin (Oct 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If you can't understand there is a difference between how the NBD defines ranks and how the Shinobi in-universe decide ranks you are lost as an individual; and i'm serious. Going off the Shinobi in-verse explanation of 'Hokage' Naruto isn't ready for that title even at the end of the War-Arc, despite being able to beat every know Kage. They have different criteria then we do the NBD, it's that simple.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 12, 2019)

t0xeus said:


> This is a very good post and I am having trouble finding any logical inconsistencies or really anything.
> I might double-check my stance on masters again after all.


Thanks man, that's why I enjoy discussing shit with you because even though we disagree you at least listen to peoples points


----------



## Kai (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> Who are these characters?


Tsunade, maybe A3 depending on his speed vs Kamui.


----------



## Perfect Susano (Oct 12, 2019)

Kakashi has the level of strength that would be expected from a Kage. Based on his brief fight with MS Sasuke, I'd put him a bit above someone like Mei since I can't really see Mei lasting long against Sasuke if he were to go at her like he did with Kakashi. He'd be above Kisame going off of him being Gai's equal and I think he could take him out with Kamui. Though I wouldn't put him above any of the other Kages.


----------



## Bonly (Oct 12, 2019)

I'd rank him as Low Kage lvl around most of the Akatsuki, Mei, Gai, Gaara, etc. He reached Kage lvl at the end of the Pain arc but he didn't improve too much throughout the war arc outside of Kamui which he has to get close to get a good shot


----------



## Turrin (Oct 12, 2019)

Shark said:


> Low Kage.
> 
> Also I want to add that the more I see @Turrin against the board on Kakashi being Jonin-level I get the feeling it's more of a disagreement on what he actually calls their level and less on who he actually beats or not.
> 
> If I'm not mistaken, the only characters I think Kakashi can beat while Turrin doesn't are probably Konan, IA Naruto while I don't think we disagree on anything else regarding who beats him (correct me if I'm wrong). I just call him low kage while he calls him top jonin. I think it's no different than rating a mid kage as low kage or a high kage as mid kage it just sounds worse because the word "kage" isn't there.


That's not the problem; because i've told them many times I don't care if someone calls him Low-Kage level or Jonin level; and I just call him Jonin level for how I personally organize Tiers in my head. The reason they are but-hurt is because they believe Kakashi is 'High-Kage' or 'Mid-Kage'; and are far above characters like the Mist Swordsman, so they don't like that I draw that comparison; even though it's thee most evident comparison the Manga draws....

---

Anyway I consider Kakashi the 3-5 Strongest Jonin, losing out marginally to Gai  and IA Naruto the two strongest Jonin; and it being debatable whose superior between him and Kisame / Konan. At least out of the Jonin we've seen extensively; characters that haven't been featured much like Mangetsu, Dan, Fuguki, etc.... IDK for certain and could be marginally stronger. Pretty much everything else comes down to match up.

I think generally people are most but-hurt because I think he's inferior a "Tier" inferior to characters I label 'Low-Kage', Mei, Rasa, Deidara, Hebi-Sasuke, etc...; and because I think it's debatable if he's superior to Kisame /Konan; and I believe he is still inferior to IA Naruto in the WA.

But first people don't bother to understand that my "Tiers" are really thin; and Kakashi being at the Top of his Tier makes this margin even thinner; to the point where due to match up I've said Kakashi could beat Deidara and potentially even Rasa (if we go off Boruto Jiton weak to Raiton). And obviously IA Naruto, Konan, and Kisame being the same Tier as Kakashi, the margin is even thinner then that...

Also outside the Kakashi circle jerk fanboy's; I think the main problem is that Konan, Mei, Rasa, IA Naruto, and Hebi-Sasuke all get horribly underestimated in the NBD. Even Deidara who used to be overrated back in the day is underrated a bit now.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Lawrence777 (Oct 12, 2019)

Acquiring Kage title is a matter of vacancy + power level + court intrigue / politics as far as I can tell. The way I always interpret the post-pain seen is Danzo used Koto there otherwise Kakashi would of been hokage.

I really feel that author intent is important, so for example when they sent for Tsunade to become the new Hokage I believe her very consideration auto meant the author sees her as kage level / were supposed to as well and it's the same for Pain Arc Kakashi. Him being brought up at the table as a viable candidate should make him considered low kage level _minimum_ from that point onward.

It's noteworthy at this point Kakashi himself still sees other shinobi like Jiraiya (who fought six path bodies at once) as substantially more powerful than himself though.

So Kakashi's Low kage but also < Jiraiya a good amount from hype/statements. I don't personally see the war arc feats as enough to bump him to mid kage, and there is I feel a stamina and power gap between him and people I consider representative of mid kage level combat ability like Mei, Gaara, Kakuzu Kisame etc. All there jutsu are larger scale than his and they don't show fatigue as easily. He stands no chance against them imo outside of his best ability kamui. He can fight well and evenly with people I consider other Jonin or low kage but punch above his weight with kamui on occasion so low kage seems about right.

Sannin as high kage Kakashi low kage and then some middle class shinobi in between the two classes feels right for me.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 12, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> Okay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Yea i don't even get what that means, or what you would have to "prove" to be a "real" Kage level.

And if we go by this, then Tsunade isn't even Kage level, because worse than Kakashi that didn't get the chance demonstate he could live up to the Kage title, she actually didn't live up to it, as Pain did the fuck he wanted on Konoha village and she ended up in coma without even laying a finger on him. 

That's a whole bunch of suppositions that come out of nowhere, and go nowhere.

What's clear cut, is that according to literally every one, Kakashi is Kage level. According to Jiraiya, Kakashi's a given, meaning he's not even barely qualificable for it.

We don't even need to get past Pain's battle with him to understand that Kakashi is qualificable for the Kage title, as Nagato is never gonna give praise and fear going near a simple Jonin level. It just doesn't make sense, considering other Akatsuki since their introduction in pt 2 have the hype of being able to roll in and beat a Kage inside their own village. And this is the leader we're talking about, someone who an hour later handed his ass to SM Naruto.

Kisame, who got beat by Gai, is called "strong enough to be paired with Itachi", and the statement is not there for nothing. Chojuro warns the 5 Kage to not understimate him, and Onoki agrees with that. This statement is also not there for nothing, as in the same chapter, we get Kisame getting by B. So again, a Kage level, as other Jonin levels never get this kind of statements.

Zabuza's hype is reinforced too, with him being able to trash strong Jonin levels like Sai (who can contribute against Akatsuki), being called a genious by Kisame and somewhat feared and respected by the other swordsmen of the mist and mist top Jonin like Chojuro. His tech is major trouble to a whole division and Kakashi is needed to deal with him.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## MaruUchiha (Oct 12, 2019)

Almost half that votes are downplaying.. How much more did Kishi have to make it clear War Kakashi is Mid Kage Tier at the very worst?

Reactions: Like 5


----------



## Crimson Flam3s (Oct 12, 2019)

Kakashi is High mid Kage/Low High Kage

He has enough skills in 3T to battle multiple dojutsu enhanced V2 Jins and Kamui lets him kill people far above his level, depending on the use mindset/urgency/knowledge/team setting.

He is Mid Kage when fighting conservatively, but if he wants to pull out Kamui early like did against Obito/Deidara/Itachi and Akatsuki, then he jumps to the lower end of high Kage tier.

No one has a static final level, ninja's can change battle tiers depending on conditions, mindset, location, knowledge and matchup.

Reactions: Like 4


----------



## Soul (Oct 12, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man if you want honest Discourse. Here's why I label Kakashi 'Jonin level'.
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Too long to actually quote_
> ...



For me what he did against Deva pushed him into low Kage. Don't even need war feats to place him there.

Good in CQC.
Powerful elemental Ninjutsu for thunder and earth type.
Kamui usage.
Raiton Kage Bunshin feint, which is capable of actually neutralizing elite opposition.
Figured out the 5 second cooldown and created a strategy to exploit it.
Add the Sharingan for copying and Genjutsu enhancement and I don't know what more do you need to place him there.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Quikdraw7777 (Oct 12, 2019)

I always struggle with these type of questions, because I'm not sure if the Shinobi villages have a "Universal" standard as to what is to be expected of a ninja at a particular rank.

Take Baki from Sunagakure for an example. He is a Jounin, and what does he have to show for it on his resume:

- Fuuton User

- Devised the "Blade of Wind" or "Wind Sword" - an intangible slice of Fuuton chakra that can bypass some defenses to inflict damage.

- Has decent leadership abilities; he was directing the Sunagkaure shinobi on their attempts to assist Gaara against Deidara.

This is it.......of course, there may be more to him, but this is what we have on paper....and he's a Jounin. Asuma and his skillset almost fits identical into this same ballaprk of Jounin capability.

WA Kakashi far eclispes what we've seen from Jounin level ninja.....by leaps and bounds. Kamui alone allows him to pull off shit that's just not possible by any other conventional means. He's well versed in 3 types of Chakra in manga, is above average in Taijustu, and can utilize many types of clones for misdirection.

Anyone voting this man to even be an Elite Jounin is just doing him a massive disservice, IMO.

*Mid Kage* Level from me. The guy has proven it time and again that he's a cut above what the standard Jounin brings to the table. Kamui just amplifies that.

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 12, 2019)

Soul said:


> For me what he did against Deva pushed him into low Kage. Don't even need war feats to place him there.
> 
> Good in CQC.
> Powerful elemental Ninjutsu for thunder and earth type.
> ...



And earned Deva's respect to the point of not daring to approach him due to how dangerous he considered him seconds before going to trash talk a Sannin about how meaningless she was in front of him.


----------



## Jad (Oct 12, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> And earned Deva's respect to the point of not daring to approach him due to how dangerous he considered him seconds before going to trash talk a Sannin about how meaningless she was in front of him.


Man I forgot that.

Gees, that's chock full of portrayal. That's such a good point.


----------



## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Look man if you want honest Discourse. Here's why I label Kakashi 'Jonin level'.
> 
> First some-one needs to understand the nature of the 'Kage' title. And the fact that in the Manga it clearly represents something different then it does in the NBD. In the manga someone can earn the 'Kage' title by being the most capable of protecting and almost more importantly running the village. While in the NBD, usually 'Kage' level refers to someone that is able to beat Shinobi who hold the Kage title 1v1; or are overall superior Ninja under various conditions.


They discuss this in the manga. The kage title acually goes to the person, who EARNS the respect and acknowledgement of the village not just based on power. Being able to have jutsu that protect the village is only part of the consideration.

Naruto actually does not realise this aspect of being Hokage until his chat with Itachi. It is not the Hokage, that is acknowledged, but being acknowledged allows you to become Hokage.

This is why Hashirama was chosen over Madara, not just because Hashirama was more powerful.
Gaara actually learnt this lesson early. The scans provide a poor translation. However, Gaara says he is going to leave the 3-man Sand sibling cell and go and enlist with the regular troops and win the people over. So not only was Gaara getting stronger, he was actively winning over the sand ninjas and proving to them he cared. So they now cheer him when he fights Deidara.

Danzo for all his power, he was the strongest ninja in the village, never won over the people and could never become Hokage.

Kakashi actually has won over the people. The ninjas love him and want to vote for him to be Hokage. Kakashi has everything needed to be Hokage and Jiraiya says so. He has the intelligence, reasonable power and the most important aspect '*the acknowledgement of the people.'*


> I'm highlighting this distinction because many people will cite that Tsunade believed Kakashi could be Hokage or how Kakashi was nearly nominated Temp-Hokage, as evidence that he is 'Kage level'. But in reality it isn't actually evidence that he is 'Kage level', just that he could hold the 'Kage title'. Tsunade and the others have faith that Kakashi could rise to the occasion and protect the village and is capable of running it, if he were to become Hokage. But that doesn't mean he posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we have seen in the story.


Well whilst it is true, Kakashi at this point would be the weakest Hokage, his level would be at the level of some other kages.


> And as such when I say 'Jonin' level, I mean characters that do not posses the same 'power level' as the Kages we've seen; even if they are stronger then the vast majority of other Shinobi in the verse.
> ----
> 
> With that out of the way, looking at how Kakashi is depicted in the story he simply compares better with Jonin.


This is where I disagree. There are many ninjas throughout the story, who are stronger than the kages of the village. There are many ninjas in the story, who could have been Kage.

Even Orochimaru for all his twisted ways is a very charismatic man and loved by many people. He actually does have the acknowledgement of many ninjas.
Jiraiya has everything to easily be Hokage.
Killerbee has everything to easily be Raikage.
Kitushchi seems to have what is required to be kage.

Then there are other powerful ninjas, who lacked the love of the people to become kage like Danzo, Itachi and possibly Chiyo.


> Kakashi main enemy and major solo victory was against the Mist Swordsman Zabuza. Likewise his rival Gai's main enemy and solo victory was against the Mist Swordsman Kisame. Then in the War Kakashi's division is matched up against the Mist Swordsman; and they fight a prolonged battle against the Swordsman; including facing Zabuza again, who Kakashi clearly indicates is still a major threat to him and Gai (even warning Gai to be careful agianst him and asking for help to deal with him quicker). It's pretty obvious that Kishimoto compares Kakashi (& Gai) to the Swordsman; and while Kakashi and Gai beat the swordsman they faced; they never faced the strongest Swordsman at their best ether (Kisame/Fuguki were missing Samehada & Mangetsu was missing Hiramekarei) and they always won with a high degree of difficulty; so it's clear they are close to the Swordsman in 'Power level'.
> 
> And I don't believe the Swordsman are 'Kage level'. Zabuza is certainly weaker then any of the Kages we've seen; and Zabuza was stated to be a Genius among the Mist Swordsman, so outside Mangetsu, Fuguki, and Kisame, it seems unlikely that any of the other Swordsman were > Zabuza; and I find it unlikely that were suppose to believe Mangetsu or Fuguki without their Sword exceed Zabuza in strength ether (Zabuza was certainly prioritized as the biggest threat in the War too).
> 
> ...


You are plain wrong about Kisame and I have provided the quotes already. Onoki and Chojuro talk about his power. He is a JInchuriki killer and called Zabuza just a kid, but highly talented.

Some characters also suffer from 'power inflation.' Haku is a perfect example. Haku is supposed to be jounin level and was a serious threat during the battle.

As for Zabuza, well he is compared to kages. He attempted unsuccessfully to assassinate the Mizukage. I think plotwise it makese sense if it was Yagura he tried to assassinate. So Zabuza here is introduced and compared with kages.

Next we are told by Kakashi, that unleashing the 8 gates gives you greater power than the Hokage. The 7 swordsman of the mist were defeated by Dai using the 8 gates and not of all them died. This shows that when gathered together as a group the 7 swordsmen of that era were greater than the Hokage.

Zabuza was just short of having kage power, but he is one of the best jounin out there. He is famed far and wide and did try to take out a kage.


> So if we Wank Kisame and say he's well above the other Swordsman, then we can also wank him to be above Gai. Or if we take his word for it and say he's close to the other Swordsman, and is <= Gai, it really doesn't change the overall 'level' of the Swordsman the Masters compare to.


Kisame probably was above Gai during their, fight especially with the lack of Samehada, but Gai and Kakashi keep improving as well. As for Kisame you keep focusing on his statement, but ignore he is compared to a perfect Jinchuriki.

Perfect Jichuriki are all easily kage level, with one being a kage and the other having everything including the adulation of the people to be kage.

Kisame was also hinted to be the strongest Akatsuki member outside of the Pain, Itachi and Obito. We have two confirmed kage killers in Sasori and Deidara. So Kisame again is kage level at the very least.


> And I really don't see any other accomplishments (outside DMS and 8TH Gate of course) that indicates Kakashi; is above the general 'level', give or take a bit of the Swordsman; I mean every time Kakashi faces any other enemy he ether looses or needs substantial help (Most of the time being saved). Now just because he looses doesn't mean he's inferior to that 'level', but it doesn't show he's on it ether. Really the only arguments for Kakashi being on that 'level' tend to come from his accomplishments in the end game of the War, with fighting the Jinchuuriki and his Kamui 'Feats'.


On your first point you are right, but Kakashi himself is constantly having tough fights and improving. WA Kakashi is much better than Part 1 Kakashi. So even, though he needs help he improves.


> When it comes to fighting the Jinchuurki, not getting instantly slaughtered is a feat to be sure, but I don't think it's beyond the capabilities of 'Jonin level' Ninja to accomplish; especially since we saw multiple Jonin level Ninja go up against shit like V2 Kinkaku, GM, and even Kitsuchi stalling Juubi (and deflecting it's TBB), without being instantly slaughtered. And while I appreciate the fact that Kakashi fought longer agains the Jinchuuriki off panel, the reason I specifically highlight the '12-hour' time period in which the Masters struggled with the Swordsman when I fuck with Kakashi-Fanboy's, is because it's god-dam obvious that Kishimoto plays fast and loose with the rules off-panel in the War-Arc, in terms of Chakra Consumption / Time / Etc... So how long Kakashi fought the Jinchuuriki off panel is just as meaningless as the 12 hours the Swordman fought the Masters off panel. What matters is the meaning behind each; the meaning is that the Swordsman are suppose to be Tough enemies for the Masters; and it's obvious the Masters won't instantly loose to the Jinchuuriki (But again this isn't beyond what Jonin are capable of).
> 
> And when it comes to Kakashi's Feats with 'Kamui', 'Kamui' itself is overrated speed, wise heavily, and I've talked about it before, but it's slower then a Kunai Toss according to Kishimoto; as it needed to have it's speed doubled to out speed TSB, which was equal to a Kunai in speed (shown plainly on the page). And most of Kakashi's other Kamui feats are due to being enhanced by Bijuu Chakra.


Kamui is very quick and by the end of the war it gets even quicker. I think and can back it up with feats that only ninjas with top reactions are going to dodge it.

That said you dismiss fighting the Jinchurki/Bijuu. All through the manga we have seen that Bijuu are serious weapons of mass destruction. Only kages like Minato, Sandaime Raikage and Rasa have been able to stand up to them.

In the case of Yagura,since his death it seems to have been running wild, until Deidara/Obito caught him.

So fighting a Biju is a kage level feat and being up against them places Gai and Kakashi on kage level.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Soul said:


> For me what he did against Deva pushed him into low Kage. Don't even need war feats to place him there.
> 
> Good in CQC.
> Powerful elemental Ninjutsu for thunder and earth type.
> ...


That’s fine, you do you, but I don’t agree 

Kakashi lost to Deva Path and Asura Path; and it’s evident ether Deva was fucking around or couldn’t use it Full power at the time (as later Deva one-shots Boss Simmons with it’s ST), and he had backup. At best we can say Kakashi is > Asura Path 1v1, but I would rate the Asura Path as ‘Jonin level’, so that’s not saying much.


As far as the feats he displayed. I don’t see why these feats put him significantly above other Top Jonin like Darui, Kitsuchi, Dan, Haishi, etc... or give hi good odds of victory against Kages like Rasa, Mei, Ei, Tsunade, etc...

Seems like your just subjectively looking at feats and saying this should make someone ‘Kage level’ but provide no substance as to why it would.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> Kakashi actually has won over the people. The ninjas love him and want to vote for him to be Hokage. Kakashi has everything needed to be Hokage and Jiraiya says so. He has the intelligence, reasonable power and the most important aspect '*the acknowledgement of the people.'*


This is actually exactly what I said; so I don't know if you arguing with me or agreeing



> Well whilst it is true, Kakashi at this point would be the weakest Hokage, his level would be at the level of some other kages.


Such as?



> This is where I disagree. There are many ninjas throughout the story, who are stronger than the kages of the village. There are many ninjas in the story, who could have been Kage.


Never said there wasn't....



> You are plain wrong about Kisame and I have provided the quotes already. Onoki and Chojuro talk about his power. He is a JInchuriki killer and called Zabuza just a kid, but highly talented.


You seem to be under the impression that skilled Jonin can't be a threat to 'Kage level' individuals. This is a false premise, as we've seen time and time again depending on match up and circumstance, Jonin can be a threat to 'Kage levels'. 

 .
Kisame is a good match up for Jinchuuriki thanks the Samehada. It should also be noted that most Jinchuuriki we saw are only 'Jonin level', accept B, who Kisame "defeated" due to circumstance:

A) Steep Match up Advantage due to Samehada (Anyone with Samehada could have done the same, including 'Jonin level' Fuguki, Mangetsu, and anyone other Jonin that has learned to wield Samehada)
B) Killer-B was nerfed down, as he couldn't use his Full Hachibi Transformation
C) Killer-B had to protect Sabo and Ponta.


Now addressing the "Defeated" part; Kisame didn't actually 'beat' B, as the fight was stopped when Ei4 arrived. If Ei4 hadn't shown up to aid B; it's unclear how that fight would have gone down and if Kisame would have even won, considering Samehada's betrayal and ability to heal B.

----

Anyway there are plenty of clear circumstantial elements there that we can tell Kisame's "Victory" was much less about 'Power level', and much more about circumstance and match up.




> As for Zabuza, well he is compared to kages. He attempted unsuccessfully to assassinate the Mizukage. I think plotwise it makese sense if it was Yagura he tried to assassinate. So Zabuza here is introduced and compared with kages.


Zabuza is an expert at Silent killing; so Assassination is his bread and butter. The fact that he still failed an assassination attempt on the Mizukage, is evidence that he's not on the Mizukage's 'level'....

And if you don't agree with that (I don't know why, but whatever), then you are going to have to argue Kakuzu is on Hashirama's 'level', since he was sent on a mission to assassinate Hashirama and attempted to do so (Albeit failed).



> Next we are told by Kakashi, that unleashing the 8 gates gives you greater power than the Hokage. The 7 swordsman of the mist were defeated by Dai using the 8 gates and not of all them died. This shows that when gathered together as a group the 7 swordsmen of that era were greater than the Hokage.


Surviving against someone doesn't mean you are on their 'level'. This is like claiming Kakuzu is on the 'level' of Hashirama because he survived his encounter with Hashirama. The fact that the swordsman clearly got stomped by Dai with some of them dying, shows they aren't on that 'level'.



> Zabuza was just short of having kage power, but he is one of the best jounin out there. He is famed far and wide and did try to take out a kage.


I agree with this though. But this is also where I would place Kakashi, just short of having Kage Power.



> Kisame probably was above Gai during their, fight especially with the lack of Samehada, but Gai and Kakashi keep improving as well


How did Gai improve?




> As for Kisame you keep focusing on his statement, but ignore he is compared to a perfect Jinchuriki.
> 
> Perfect Jichuriki are all easily kage level, with one being a kage and the other having everything including the adulation of the people to be kage.


Kisame wasn't compared to a Perfect Jinchuuriki lol, he was compared to a Tailed Beast without a Tail in Chakra Capacity. So basically bellow Shukaku. Shukaku even in his element (The desert) got beaten by Rasa, one of the Weakest 'Kage levels' we've seen. So simply having Bijuu 'like' stamina doesn't mean you are 'Kage level'. Naruto has been rocking Bijuu 'like' stamina since back in P1.




> Kisame was also hinted to be the strongest Akatsuki member outside of the Pain, Itachi and Obito. .


Where? The only statements about Kisame 'Power level' in relation to the other Akatsuki that i'm aware of.

A) He's Far weaker then Sick Itachi
B) He thought Deidara was very powerful
C) He was shocked Hidan and Kakuzu could even be killed


If he thinks Deidara is 'very powerful', I really doubt Kisame's 'power level' exceeds his; and I actually doubt he's even on Deidara's 'level', and I have even more doubts that he'd be anywhere close to Sasori, who Deidara states is even stronger then him.

Also if he's shocked the Immortal duo could even be killed, I have doubts that he's significantly stronger then them as well.




> On your first point you are right, but Kakashi himself is constantly having tough fights and improving. WA Kakashi is much better than Part 1 Kakashi. So even, though he needs help he improves.


Kakashi improving is not something I ever contested. Whether he improves enough to be consider >= to any of the Kages featured in the manga is.



> Kamui is very quick and by the end of the war it gets even quicker. I think and can back it up with feats that only ninjas with top reactions are going to dodge it.


It's slower then a Kunai Toss, period; and looking at it's performance in the Manga, if Kakashi didn't one shot the Swordsman with it; I can't see it as a game changer move that puts Kakashi above the Swordsman's 'level', as literally it wasn't a game changer move that put him above the Swordsman when they literally fought in the manga



> Kamui is very quick and by the end of the war it gets even quicker. I think and can back it up with feats that only ninjas with top reactions are going to dodge it.


Kakashi didn't fight Bijuu; he fought Jinchuuriki; and he only survived, he didn't beat a single one. This isn't beyond 'Jonin level', considering even Kitsuchi saved the entire alliance from Juubi TBB, which is enemy >>>> Jinchuuriki; showing that Jonin can and have the ability to survive against enemy's like this for some time


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> And earned Deva's respect to the point of not daring to approach him due to how dangerous he considered him seconds before going to trash talk a Sannin about how meaningless she was in front of him.


Are you seriously trying to suggest this portrays Kakashi on or above Sannin level, when Kakashi much more directly was jerking Jiriaya off for his 'Power level' and Feats against Pain? Come on man....this is why I don't take a-lot of pro Kakashi arguments seriously.


----------



## Eliyua23 (Oct 13, 2019)

Kakashi is Kage level for many of the reasons people place him in that role for his battle genius , leadership and uncanny ability to operate in a team setting and accomplishing missions as a ninja which is what these characters are really paid to do .

Kakashi skillset as we have seen is best suited for operating in team settings as he’s someone who has best been seen utilizing others abilities to deal deadly damage to the enemy , even his Ms ability Kamui because of his lack of Uchiha Blood:Stamina is best suited as a sniper ability to catch the enemy off guard and having someone to cover for him with the recoil it takes on his body so in team missions he’s one of the best in the manga , problem with that Battledome is based upon one vs one battles and in that regard he’s not a Kage level because his best ability can’t be spammed and creates a massive weakness in his arsenal which is why he struggled in most battles against upper tiers he’s gotta use Kamui to defend or to gain any sort of battle advantage as he doesn’t have insane speed/strength like a Raikage or a Killer Bee .

In battle dome scenarios I rate him alongside characters like Gai , Kisame , Deidara , Zabuza talented jounin with huge flaws in their skillset when fighting upper tiers but in the manga within the confines of the story yes he’s Kage because he’s one of the best “ninja” in history .


----------



## Reddan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> This is actually exactly what I said; so I don't know if you arguing with me or agreeing


I agree with you and it is clear Kakashi has this. So that's a very important aspect he has to be Kage. When the vote comes up,all his positive qualities are mentioned and Danzo needs to cheat to win. Now Danzo is actually stronger than Kakashi, by quite a bit actually, but Kakashi is the better candidate.

He has lineage, it definitely matters.

*Ho, the son of the white fang eh. Yes that sounds mighty fine.  You all?
*
Power and personality matter. We know Orochimaru partly lost out to Minato due to character. Now Kakashi is the weakest Hokage, but his power level seems to be acceptable.

*He's well known powerful and virtuous
*
Experience is important. Kakashi loses points for being young and possibly lacking experience.

*But perhaps he is a bit too young.
*
Sensei in addition to lineage matters as well. Kakashi has an excellent line of senseis.

*'The Fourth Hokaga
- and the Fourth Hokage was Jiraiya's disciple and Jiraiya the Third Hokage's disciple.
*
All of those things matter and apart from age and power Kakashi is as good as you get.


> Such as?


I have to be honest. I don't think PA Kakashi can beat any kage we have currently seen. However, Jiraiya did say Kakashi is a given. So it seems IA Kakashi and Naruto are the lowest levels required to be kage level. So possibly previous kages were weaker. Perhaps Gaara was weaker when elected.


> Never said there wasn't....
> 
> 
> You seem to be under the impression that skilled Jonin can't be a threat to 'Kage level' individuals. This is a false premise, as we've seen time and time again depending on match up and circumstance, Jonin can be a threat to 'Kage levels'.


However, when you are a threat to several kage level opponents then that is not just due to a match up advantage. You are on that level.


> Kisame is a good match up for Jinchuuriki thanks the Samehada. It should also be noted that most Jinchuuriki we saw are only 'Jonin level', accept B, who Kisame "defeated" due to circumstance:
> 
> A) Steep Match up Advantage due to Samehada (Anyone with Samehada could have done the same, including 'Jonin level' Fuguki, Mangetsu, and anyone other Jonin that has learned to wield Samehada)
> B) Killer-B was nerfed down, as he couldn't use his Full Hachibi Transformation
> C) Killer-B had to protect Sabo and Ponta.


Roshi is implied to be kage level, Yagura obviously was kage level and so was Ni. Ni whilst not yet a perfect Jin, had excellent control of her beast powers able to do mini-transformations. 

We don't have enough information about the other Jinchuriki.


> Now addressing the "Defeated" part; Kisame didn't actually 'beat' B, as the fight was stopped when Ei4 arrived. If Ei4 hadn't shown up to aid B; it's unclear how that fight would have gone down and if Kisame would have even won, considering Samehada's betrayal and ability to heal B.


Kisame kicked Samehada away and Bee was out of chakra. The fight was done. Kisame can even force Samehada to do things. So if Samehada tried to heal Bee, Kisame could just force him to drain Bee's chakra, just like he did on turtle island. The fight was won.


> Anyway there are plenty of clear circumstantial elements there that we can tell Kisame's "Victory" was much less about 'Power level', and much more about circumstance and match up.


He still needed the power to do what he did. Samehada is part of his power. V2 Bee easily stomped the whole of Hawk. Replace Sasuke with Orochimaru and Hawk outdid the Gokage. 

Ninjas were more impressed with Orochimaru led Hawk than the Gokage, so whilst still all jounin level, they are a great team. Cee, who is one of the most knowledgeable shinobi in the manga, was amazed at Suigetsu and Jugo being able to keep up with Ay somewhat. 


> Zabuza is an expert at Silent killing; so Assassination is his bread and butter. The fact that he still failed an assassination attempt on the Mizukage, is evidence that he's not on the Mizukage's 'level'....
> 
> And if you don't agree with that (I don't know why, but whatever), then you are going to have to argue Kakuzu is on Hashirama's 'level', since he was sent on a mission to assassinate Hashirama and attempted to do so (Albeit failed).


No I agree Zabuza was not kage level, but he was close enough to attempt the assassination. Kakuzu on the other hand was sent as part of a team and was absolutely decimated, as would be expected. Hashirama is a very kind shinobi and likes to spare his opponents, hence why Madara survived so long. Rikudo even called out how kind Hashirama was.


> Surviving against someone doesn't mean you are on their 'level'. This is like claiming Kakuzu is on the 'level' of Hashirama because he survived his encounter with Hashirama. The fact that the swordsman clearly got stomped by Dai with some of them dying, shows they aren't on that 'level'.


I agree, but not when the other person dies unless there's some special circumstance like Sasori vs Chiyo/Sakura. They got stomped, but some of them outlived Dai. It also took power greater than the Hokage to stop them. So this implies when they are gathered they are an elite force.

Hokages have traditionally been stronger than all other kages. Hashirama, Hiruzen, Tobirama and Minato being stronger than all other kages. Only Sandaime Raikage has been hinted to be on Hokage level. Even Tsunade, who is predominantly a support ninja was better in combat than all, but Onoki. 

So if the swordsman can outlast someone greater than the Hokage then they compare very well to other kages. It wasn't just the swordsmen either. They had other strong jounin fighters like Haku, Gari and Pakura.


> I agree with this though. But this is also where I would place Kakashi, just short of having Kage Power.


This was Part 1 Kakashi. By the IA, Jiraiya, who is experienced and exceptionally powerful considers Kakashi has the requisite power level to be a kage.


> How did Gai improve?


Yeh, Gai probably did not improve. I will take that back, but Kakashi did to catch up to Gai's level.


> Kisame wasn't compared to a Perfect Jinchuuriki lol, he was compared to a Tailed Beast without a Tail in Chakra Capacity. So basically bellow Shukaku. Shukaku even in his element (The desert) got beaten by Rasa, one of the Weakest 'Kage levels' we've seen. So simply having Bijuu 'like' stamina doesn't mean you are 'Kage level'. Naruto has been rocking Bijuu 'like' stamina since back in P1.


I agree stamina alone does not mean you are kage level, but Kisame's praise was not what you give a jounin.

You say Samehada makes him a bad match up for jounin, but it makes him a bad match up for all ninjutsu users. His Great Shark Bullet is the perfect counter to most ninjutsu. He is extremely versatile with the elements he can use, monstrous strength and skilled at taijutsu. He is a highly skilled all around ninja.

Jounin don't get hype like this.

Chojuro-*That man possesses Jinchuriki level chakra volume and Samehada the most terrible of the seven blades. My elders told me when he fuses with his sword he becomes like a Bijuu putting out Jinchuriki like power even though he's a human. He is special. Please do not underestimate him.*

Onoki-*We know that*
*
*


> Where? The only statements about Kisame 'Power level' in relation to the other Akatsuki that i'm aware of.
> 
> A) He's Far weaker then Sick Itachi
> B) He thought Deidara was very powerful
> C) He was shocked Hidan and Kakuzu could even be killed


All the Akatsuki were weaker than Itachi.
Deidara was powerful and he was praised by both Pain/Obito.
I don't think he was shocked they died and he did not praise their power. I will have to check this.

Kisame was also confident of handling the rest of team Taka. As shown during the war, Taka are a very impressive group of individuals and even more impressive as a team. 


> If he thinks Deidara is 'very powerful', I really doubt Kisame's 'power level' exceeds his; and I actually doubt he's even on Deidara's 'level', and I have even more doubts that he'd be anywhere close to Sasori, who Deidara states is even stronger then him.
> 
> Also if he's shocked the Immortal duo could even be killed, I have doubts that he's significantly stronger then them as well.


Kisame praised Deidara's power, but the implication is, he is stronger. Pain and Obito did the same too. As for the zombie twins, he is being disrespectful and not being serious, hence why Pain tells him to show some respect. 

Throughout Kisame is portrayed as above all Sasori/Deidara et. 

He was made Itachi's partner, because he was the most trustworthy and to keep watch of Itachi.


> Kakashi improving is not something I ever contested. Whether he improves enough to be consider >= to any of the Kages featured in the manga is.


However, Jiraiya gives us the baseline strength required to be a kage. It is IA Kakashi level. Jiraiya knows more about kages than we do, so we can assume there were previous kages weaker than IA Kakashi level, or were weaker at the point they were made kage.


> It's slower then a Kunai Toss, period; and looking at it's performance in the Manga, if Kakashi didn't one shot the Swordsman with it; I can't see it as a game changer move that puts Kakashi above the Swordsman's 'level', as literally it wasn't a game changer move that put him above the Swordsman when they literally fought in the manga


That was an outlier and nobody ever mentions the speed of the kunai toss. Kakashi was conserving energy against the swordsman, because it was a long war. When he fought Obito he was about to use it.

Kakakshi generally only uses Kamui when absolutely necessary. It was not necessary to deal with the swordsman of the mist + other powerful jounin, which you have ignored.


> Kakashi didn't fight Bijuu; he fought Jinchuuriki; and he only survived, he didn't beat a single one. This isn't beyond 'Jonin level', considering even Kitsuchi saved the entire alliance from Juubi TBB, which is enemy >>>> Jinchuuriki; showing that Jonin can and have the ability to survive against enemy's like this for some time


Show me another panel of a jounin facing off 4? Jinchurii? Then I will agree with your statement. 

Your problem is you have decided Kisame and Kakashi are jounin level and then dismissed all their feats as something other jounin can do. Show me the feats of other jounin facing V2 shroud Jinchuriki? There are none. 

Kakashi is at the bottom of kage level during IA and by the WA, he has everything necessary to be solid kage level fighter.


----------



## Kisame (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> A) Steep Match up Advantage due to Samehada (Anyone with Samehada could have done the same, including 'Jonin level' Fuguki, Mangetsu, and anyone other Jonin that has learned to wield Samehada)


Mangetsu might have trouble with Raiton, and we don't know if Fuguki has Kisame's physicals. But I see what you're saying.

The issue is, Kisame needed the waterdome to finish off Bee, not just Samehada.



> Now addressing the "Defeated" part; Kisame didn't actually 'beat' B, as the fight was stopped when Ei4 arrived. If Ei4 hadn't shown up to aid B; it's unclear how that fight would have gone down and if Kisame would have even won, considering Samehada's betrayal and ability to heal B.


We've already seen on-panel Samehada being removed from the equation and Bee about to be sliced after his last ditch effort with a Raiton pencil failed: the context is clear that the arrival of the Raikage saved Bee.


> Kisame wasn't compared to a Perfect Jinchuuriki lol, he was compared to a Tailed Beast without a Tail in Chakra Capacity. So basically bellow Shukaku.


I thought the "without a tail" is a reference to the fact that he's not actually a biju. As in, this guy is so cool he's comparable to biju even though he doesn't have tails. 

Also, do you think Samehada would have made a difference against Gai in their final fight?


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Reddan said:


> I
> I have to be honest. I don't think PA Kakashi can beat any kage we have currently seen. However, Jiraiya did say Kakashi is a given. So it seems IA Kakashi and Naruto are the lowest levels required to be kage level. So possibly previous kages were weaker. Perhaps Gaara was weaker when elected.


But again what is required to be a 'Kage' is not the same as what is considered 'Kage level' in the NBD or at least on my NBD Tier List. For me to label someone 'Kage level' In the NBD they need to be shown >= one of the Kages we've seen, which your saying he isn't.

Whether Kakashi would make a 'good' Kage or could live up to the title of Kage in the Pain or IA, is a totally different discussion. For the record though I think he would make a 'good' Kage, even back then, but I also think WA Shikkamaru would make a better Kage then Hashirama; due to his keen intellect and ability to run the village, which is much more important then strength, especially when you have strong guys to support you like Naruto.



> Roshi is implied to be kage level, Yagura obviously was kage level and so was Ni. Ni whilst not yet a perfect Jin, had excellent control of her beast powers able to do mini-transformations.


Where are Roshi and Yugito implied to be 'Kage level'?

Yagura I agree, but he was beaten by Obito, who is > Kisame and all the other Akatsuki, except maybe debatably Itachi and Nagato




> Kisame kicked Samehada away and Bee was out of chakra. The fight was done. Kisame can even force Samehada to do things. So if Samehada tried to heal Bee, Kisame could just force him to drain Bee's chakra, just like he did on turtle island. The fight was won.


And Samehada couldn't come back and heal B again why exactly?

Maybe he could force him to drain B's chakra or maybe that only work because Samehada was off guard in that scene. We don't know.

This is far less important anyway, then the fact that Kisame 'won' due to circumstance and match up



> He still needed the power to do what he did. Samehada is part of his power. .


Samehada is part of his power but it's not beyond 'Jonin level'; as many Jonin Swordsman have mastered Samehada; heck Mangetsu mastered Samehada and all 6 other Swords.



> V2 Bee easily stomped the whole of Hawk. Replace Sasuke with Orochimaru and Hawk outdid the Gokage.


B ended up using Hachibi Form against Taka; and Hachibi beating Taka while 'losing' to Kisame is irrelevant because it's a match up issue.



> No I agree Zabuza was not kage level, but he was close enough to attempt the assassination. .


Which any 'Top Jonin' is; so moving on



> I agree, but not when the other person dies unless there's some special circumstance like Sasori vs Chiyo/Sakura. They got stomped, but some of them outlived Dai. It also took power greater than the Hokage to stop them. So this implies when they are gathered they are an elite force.


Dai, died from using that power, not the Swordsman killing him. Also it was never stated that it required beyond Hokage level power to beat the Swordsman; its simply was Dai's only option. 

Unless you want to make a thread of Hashirama vs 7 Swordsman (not even the strongest generation of them).



> This was Part 1 Kakashi. By the IA, Jiraiya, who is experienced and exceptionally powerful considers Kakashi has the requisite power level to be a kage.


No it was WA Kakashi who was still matched up against Zabuza and considered him a major threat



> Jounin don't get hype like this.
> 
> Chojuro-*That man possesses Jinchuriki level chakra volume and Samehada the most terrible of the seven blades. My elders told me when he fuses with his sword he becomes like a Bijuu putting out Jinchuriki like power even though he's a human. He is special. Please do not underestimate him.*
> 
> Onoki-*We know that*


Yes they do lol; he gets compared to the Jinchuuriki; a-lot of which are 'Jonin level' or bellow. We have clear confirmation of 2 Jinchuuriki Ninja that were Genin / Chunin / Jonin level in P1, in the form of Gaara and Naruto.



> Kisame praised Deidara's power, but the implication is, he is stronger. Pain and Obito did the same too. As for the zombie twins, he is being disrespectful and not being serious, hence why Pain tells him to show some respect.
> 
> Throughout Kisame is portrayed as above all Sasori/Deidara et.
> 
> He was made Itachi's partner, because he was the most trustworthy and to keep watch of Itachi.


You keep saying the implication is that he's stronger, but I've asked several times where this implication is.



> That was an outlier and nobody ever mentions the speed of the kunai toss. Kakashi was conserving energy against the swordsman, because it was a long war. When he fought Obito he was about to use it.
> .


Dude an outlier is something that happens one time out of context; it's very plainly showed that the Kunai Toss is equal to the TSB in speed multiple times. And  Kakashi Kamui being slower then the TSB was specifically in the context of Kishimoto telling us how fast his Kamui is; and that it needs it's speed doubled to warp Obito faster then the TSB.

So i'm glad you think it's an outlier, but your not convincing me



> Kakakshi generally only uses Kamui when absolutely necessary. It was not necessary to deal with the swordsman of the mist + other powerful jounin, which you have ignored


The idea that Kakashi could have dealt with the Swordsman easier and more quickly with Kamui; and decide not to use it because it's not necessary, allowing Hundreds if not Thousands to die to the Swordsman; and potentially thousands more to die he could have aided if he beat the Swordsman quicker; is thee most OOC illogical and nonsensical garbage idea i've ever seen someone try to present as a compelling argument on the forum.

So you WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME this is the case.



> Show me another panel of a jounin facing off 4? Jinchurii? Then I will agree with your statement.


Looking at what happened on panel with the Masters

1) The Jinchuuriki go to attack Naruto
2) Kakashi intercepts 5-Tails and Gai intercepts the 7-Tails
3) Both Gai and Kakashi's attacks bounce off the 5-Tails and 7-Tails respectively, but managed to stop their progress
4) Kakashi attempts another attack on 5-Tails
5) This attack is dodged
6) 5-Tails then tail whips them sending them flying back



Looking at what happened on panel with Kitsuchi

1) V2 Kin goes to attack Darui
2) Kitsuchi intercepts V2 Kinkaku
3) Kitsuchi's Rock Fist hits V2 Kinkaku pushing him back and stopping his progress

Literally zero difference imo, other then if you really want to get technical Kitsuchi's Rock Fist seemed more effect as it pushed V2 Kinkaku further back.

It's also no different then what happened with Chouji, where he charges V2 Kinkaku and uses Human bolder pushing Kinkaku back a bit, but then getting repelled and thrown back by Kinkaku

Nether Kitsuchi or Chouji, had anyone else helping them to accomplish this ether; they just charged V2 Kinkaku and did it without problem; and without dying.

Same-thing with GM; literally Chouji Charges it; punches it back a bit halting it's progress momentary and then gets thrown back by the Shockwave.

Being able to momentarily halt or fend off a V2 Jin is not beyond 'Jonin level' based on Kitsuchi; and more importantly Chouji being able to do the exact same thing.

----

After this we see the
1) Gai Repel 6-Tails Acid
2) Kakashi Repel 5-Tails Chakra Arms

Nice Feats, but considering Kitsuchi is shown Repelling Juubi TBB which is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
6-Tails Acid or 5-Tails Chakra Arms

I also don't take this as them showing anything even remotely beyond 'Jonin level'


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Shark said:


> Mangetsu might have trouble with Raiton, and we don't


He wouldn't because Samehada would absorb the Raiton



> nd we don't know if Fuguki has Kisame's physicals.


You don't need Kisame's physicals because Samehada was blocking B's blows in V1/2 by itself



> The issue is, Kisame needed the waterdome to finish off Bee, not just Samehada.


Why did he need the water dome? How was V2 B ever going to beat Kisame w/ Samehada even if Water Dome wasn't used.



> The issue is, Kisame needed the waterdome to finish off Bee, not just Samehada.


So what is he's sliced.

That likely won't kill B; B himself can regenerate and Samehada could also heal him




> the context is clear that the arrival of the Raikage saved Bee.


Ei saved B from a major wound, but we know B wouldn't die from that. Its very similar to B saving Ei from Minato Kunai slash, where the context makes it obvious B saved him from a wound, but based on everything we know Ei isn't going to die to that.

Anyway, I don't want to deep dive this point too much, as I don't necessarily disagree, i'm just saying that Kishimoto included that scene of Samehada betraying Kisame and healing B for a reason; and it's clearly to further muddle  Kisame's 'victory' and cast even more doubt on his 'win'. And I don't think that should be ignored.



> I thought the "without a tail" is a reference to the fact that he's not actually a biju. As in, this guy is so cool he's comparable to biju even though he doesn't have tails


Maybe; but ether way I don't see anything in that statement saying he has more Chakra or Raw power then Shukaku (let alone Shukak in the desert). Shukaku still has better feats of Raw Power and this was in P1 Power-Scale during Chunin Exams; and when Shukaku was stated to still not be at Full Power.



> Also, do you think Samehada would have made a difference against Gai in their final fight?


Not really on the outcome, but it could have made a difference on the flow of the fight.

As far as outcome goes, ether you look at the person who physical 'beat' Kisame as the victor; or you look at the person who accomplished their mission as the victor. I truly believe Kishimoto would look at it, as the latter, and Kisame would be seen as the victor.

So Kisame was the victor regardless; having Samehada probably won't change that. And it makes sense Gai and Kisame are around the same level, so Kisame going the extra mile to give his life to succeed gave him the edge to get the 'W' and succeed in his mission (also would have killed Gai with his final trap too). Though if Gai was determined to give his life to stop Kisame; he would have succeeded too, by using 8TH Gate and blitz raping the shark as it fled.

So I think no matter what you end up with the same outcome; of Kisame and Gai are around the same level; Kisame wins because he gives his life, though Gai could have still won if he gave his. Ultimately with Gai being marginally better Ninja.


---

It could have effected to flow of the battle though at several points. 

Like if he fused with Samehada, taking on the Kisamehada form, this would have made him faster in water; and Gai may have needed 7TH Gate right away to catch up to him. Also Kisaemhada form could have made him more durable so that it took longer in the 7TH Gate to defeat him.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Are you seriously trying to suggest this portrays Kakashi on or above Sannin level, when Kakashi much more directly was jerking Jiriaya off for his 'Power level' and Feats against Pain? Come on man....this is why I don't take a-lot of pro Kakashi arguments seriously.



Deva took Kakashi with far more caution than he did to Tsunade after battling him.

Take it how you want to take it. I dont mind.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Deva took Kakashi with far more caution than he did to Tsunade after battling him.
> 
> Take it how you want to take it. I dont mind.


Deva used CST on Tsunade, which she actually countered, not just defending herself but the entire village. 

I do not know what universe you could possibly be living in where you could look at that and think the author's intent was to show Deva being more cautious against Kakashi then Tsunade; or Kakashi doing better against Deva then Tsunade.

And the way I take it is you grasping for straws, for the record

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 13, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Deva took Kakashi with far more caution than he did to Tsunade after battling him.
> 
> Take it how you want to take it. I dont mind.



He didn't need to because no actual fight broke out. All that means is that he thought he could survive long enough to either escape or call other Pains to his location if it did.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 13, 2019)

He was _Hokage-level_ before he became Hokage. Jiraiya and Tsunade confirmed it; the council was in agreement, and so were the other Kage... People acted like he _was_ the Hokage [, ], and became one _without _the Sharingan. The manga is literally filled with him getting praised left and right – man was compared to Itachi_;_ _humiliated_ Obito [] and was acknowledged by Madara (a hard man to impress) .  The _hat_ doesn't have magical powers that unless you wear it in a ceremony, you can't be considered _Kage-level_.

Here's a quote from the Kakashi Retsuden novel, stating the _obvious _and what can be argued as common perception amongst the readership:

カカシの戦闘力は、オビトやマダラと戦った当時と比べて大幅に飛躍している。あれから長い年月が経ち、その間ずっと、研鑽を重ねているのだから当然だ。

... That he played a _major role_ in the manga's endgame battles, and was the _main star_ in the fight against Obito, according to Kishimoto _himself_ (Remember the _Year of Kakashi?_). That serves as an intuitive reference point to gauge his strength.



> "No, you won't be able to read something like that. (laugh) The story really hasn't progressed as much as I was expecting. About three years ago, at JF, I said that I would give Kakashi more to do in the manga... and yet I still haven't been able to do that. Honestly, I myself don't know how much it will take. Nishio-san, who takes care of the character designs for the anime, also asked me for how long the story would continue... and I answered 'About one year and a half'. But it seems like it will take longer than that."





> ""Next year I'll write about Kakashi first, then about Sasuke and then about Naruto. (Then Takeuchi-san and Nakamura-san asked Kishi "What about Sakura?!!") "Sakura well…well she's slipped my mind.""

Reactions: Kage 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _humiliated_ Obito [] .


I'm sorry, but your giving Kakashi credit for 'humiliating' Obito for him aiding in BM-Naruto landing a hit on Obito that didn't even defeat him and was only possible due to match up circumstances (having Obito's other Sharingan); and Obito then went on to beat the living shit out of Kakashi, forcing Naruto to come in and save his ass.

This is another perfect example of the dishonesty of this fandom. Yes clearly the author wants us to see Kakashi as MS-Obito level; even though he need to give Kakashi a match up advantage and the help of 3 characters more powerful then Kakashi himself, to face Obito; and when he does solo he gets raped. Yes clearly you guys have a firm understanding of the author's intent with this characters.

In before one of the circle jerk club, starts talking about how Kakashi 'beat' Obito in Box land; totally ignoring that Obito lead Kakashi into that, in-order to successful achieve his objective which he in-fact did.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> I'm sorry, but your giving Kakashi credit for 'humiliating' Obito for him aiding in BM-Naruto landing a hit on Obito that didn't even defeat him and was only possible due to match up circumstances (having Obito's other Sharingan); and Obito then went on to beat the living shit out of Kakashi, forcing Naruto to come in and save his ass.
> 
> This is another perfect example of the dishonesty of this fandom.


I am giving Kakashi the credit for humiliating Obito_* when their Kamui clashed*_._ 

"A borrowed eye that can't even string together a barrage isn't enough to threaten me... Watch and learn, I will show you... the true power of Kamui!  // ... As long as I pay attention to where he uses Kamui, there is nothing to fear".
_
This is the _*climax*_ of that battle ~ Kakashi VS Obito / Borrowed Eye VS Original Eye ~ and a moment nearly 7 years in the making. You outright ignored that _this_ _is exactly_ what made that moment powerful, instead opting to argue _useless details _that utterly destroy the scene. Am I the dishonest one? Your reading of that event is _seriously_ flawed.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> I am giving Kakashi the credit for humiliating Obito_* when their Kamui clashed*_._
> 
> "A borrowed eye that can't even string together a barrage isn't enough to threaten me... Watch and learn, I will show you... the true power of Kamui!  // ... As long as I pay attention to where he uses Kamui, there is nothing to fear".
> _
> This is the _*climax*_ of that battle ~ Kakashi VS Obito / Borrowed Eye VS Original Eye ~ and a moment nearly 7 years in the making. You outright ignored that _this_ _is exactly_ what made that moment powerful, instead opting to argue _useless details _that utterly destroy the scene. Am I the dishonest one? You're reading of that event is _seriously_ flawed.


LOL Useless Details......

Yes writing of the Main Protagonists (Naruto's) very clear involvement in this is definitely a useless detail

And I'm generally curious were you one of the people who rage quite the manga after Tobi was revealed to be Obito; because literally nothing else, besides extreme dishonesty, would explain why you think that was the climax of the battle against Obito lol

The battle literally continues immediately after this; and Obito kicks Kakashi's ass Low-Difficulty.

Why, the F do you believe its reasonable to take a scene where Kakashi lands a blow assists in landing a blow on Obito with Naruto's help to evaluate his 'level' in comparison to Obito, more seriously then Obito raping his ass Low difficult. Is completely unexplainable outside of sheer bias on your behalf and dishonesty


----------



## Hasan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> LOL Useless Details......
> 
> Yes writing of the Main Protagonists (Naruto's) very clear involvement in this is definitely a useless detail
> 
> ...


_From JumpFesta 2012:_


			
				Kishimoto said:
			
		

> ""*Next year I'll write about Kakashi first*, then about Sasuke and then about Naruto. (Then Takeuchi-san and Nakamura-san asked Kishi "What about Sakura?!!") "Sakura well…well she's slipped my mind.""

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _From JumpFesta 2012:_


Are you dishonestly trying to push the idea that 'writing' about a character means anything about 'power level'?

Kakashi was the focus there first because of his relationship to Obito; but the doesn't have any baring on the fact that Obito raped his ass 1v1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Are you dishonestly trying to push the idea that 'writing' about a character means anything about 'power level'?


_Only?_ No. I recognize it as a part of the package, seeing that this is a manga about _ninja_ _fighting each other_. As such, a character's fighting ability is part of the charm. Obito _*lost* _to Kakashi in the _battle of Kamui_ ~ he *conceded *it. You can dismiss it as a _one-time-thing _only, but that battle is written with a clear focus on Kakashi figuring out Tobi's _technique, _culminating into a powerful, emotional clash that Kakashi _won_.

_"Damn you, Kakashi... Faster than the stake!!" / "Damn you Kakashi... You beat me to it..."_



> *Kakashi was the focus there first because of his relationship to Obito*; but the doesn't have any baring on the fact that Obito rapedhis ass 1v1


... and _precisely_ why he got to be the main star of that battle, and why people did _*not*_ want Tobi to be Obito in the first place. Kakashi VS Obito was going to happen, one way or the other. Secondly, nobody denies that Obito was beating him up, post-reveal ~ because they are capable of recognizing that Kakashi's _guilt overtook him_. Are you sure, you're not the one _obsessing _over power-levels?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _Only?_ No. I recognize it as a part of the package, seeing that this is a manga about _ninja_ _fighting each other_. As such, a character's fighting ability is part of the charm. Obito _*lost* _to Kakashi in the _battle of Kamui_ ~ he *conceded *it. You can dismiss it as a _one-time-thing _only, but that battle is written with a clear focus on Kakashi figuring out Tobi's _technique, _culminating into a powerful, emotional clash that Kakashi _won_.
> 
> _"Damn you, Kakashi... Faster than the stake!!" / "Damn you Kakashi... You beat me to it..."_
> 
> ...


So again just to be clear your premise is that Kakashi is stronger then Obito; because details like him having help from B, Gai, and Naruto are meaningless.


But becuase he was emotional your going ingore him actually losing to Obito low diff 1v1; because suddenly details matter again

Hahahahah, I really hope everyone is reading this shit


----------



## Hasan (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> So again just to be clearly your premise is that Kakashi is stronger then Obito; because details like him having help from B, Gai, and Naruto are meaningless.


My premise is that the *climax *of that battle is Kakashi VS Obito ~the two _*using*_ _*Kamui*_ to the fullest expression, of which they are capable~ and Kakashi winning by _Obito's own admission*. *_My conclusion is that it's an amazing feat for Kakashi, seeing that Obito was particularly focused on _where_ Kakashi used Kamui, and was still _*humbled*_. Kakashi is _that_ good, and _everyone_ knows it. His _power-level_ is inconsequential, but most will agree that this isn't something a _Jōnin/non-Kage _can achieve.



> But becuase he was emotional your going ingore him actually losing to Obito low diff 1v1; because suddenly details matter again
> 
> Hahahahah


Clearly, I was talking about the fact that the ideas that the author wishes to convey can be understood from the way he designed the scenes. When I said that you argued _useless details_, I meant that you destroyed the _intent_ behind that scene by bringing attention towards the ideas that he never intended to convey ~ and you did so, presumably because you are reading those events as implying _power-levels_.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> My premise is that the *climax *of that battle is Kakashi VS Obito ~the two _*using*_ _*Kamui*_ to the fullest expression, of which they are capable~ and Kakashi winning by _Obito's own admission*. *_My conclusion is that it's an amazing feat for Kakashi, seeing that Obito was particularly focused on _where_ Kakashi used Kamui, and was still _*humbled*_. Kakashi is _that_ good, and _everyone_ knows it. His _power-level_ is inconsequential, but most will agree that this isn't something a _Jōnin/non-Kage _can achieve.
> 
> 
> Clearly, I was talking about the fact that the ideas that the author wishes to convey can be understood from the way he designed the scenes. When I said that you argued _useless details_, I meant that you destroyed the _intent_ behind that scene by bringing attention towards the ideas that he never intended to convey ~ and you did so, presumably because you are reading those events as implying _power-levels_.



1. In no universe is that the climax of the battle as the battle continues for a shit ton of chapters after that

2. Of course it isn’t something other Jonin can achieve as literally Kakashi only could achieve it due to having Obito other eye; it was match up thing. Kakashi is the only character that could achieve it period

3. So in your mind the authors intent wasn’t to show Naruto and Kakashi coming together to land that hit on Obito, yeah F off dude

Your so dishonest it ridiculous though a bit funny too


----------



## Trojan (Oct 13, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Clearly, I was talking about the fact that the ideas that the author wishes to convey can be understood from the way he designed the scenes. When I said that you argued _useless details_, I meant that you destroyed the _intent_ behind that scene by bringing attention towards the ideas that he never intended to convey ~ and you did so, presumably because you are reading those events as implying _power-levels_.


it's a matter of Kishi "reconsidering" his previous stand... 
Obito trashed Kakashi with Shrukins, and he teleported him away. he only managed to return because Naruto gave him his chakra. 


Kishi at first wanted Kakashi to be faster at Kamui, but then he changed his opinion. As Obito used Kamui just as fast Kakashi did (Vs Asspulldara? )


----------



## OneShotPerfected (Oct 13, 2019)

DMS Kakashi is stronger than every kage in history besides Naruto. In fact, I ranked DMS Kakashi as the 12th strongest character of all time. 

1. Jigen (Karma Horn)/Isshiki
2. Kaguya
3. JJ Hagoromo
4. Tenseigan Hamura
5. Fused Momoshiki
6. Juudara
7. Hokage Naruto
8. Adult Sasuke
9. Kashin Koji/Boro/Code
10. Tenseigan Toneri
11. Juubito
12. DMS Kakashi


----------



## Turrin (Oct 13, 2019)

OneShotPerfected said:


> DMS Kakashi is stronger than every kage in history besides Naruto. In fact, I ranked DMS Kakashi as the 12th strongest character of all time.
> 
> 1. Jigen (Karma Horn)/Isshiki
> 2. Kaguya
> ...


Problem with DMS Kakashi is he can’t maintain it long


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 13, 2019)

WA Kakashi is high kage

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 13, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Yeah I guess it is a fantasy to believe that one day you'll stop riding Kakashi's D


You seem to be more infatuated than I anything you want to tell? I mean ever since your boyfriend, Tobirama, left you've gotten aggressive


----------



## Vice (Oct 13, 2019)

What even happened here? I mean what is this back and forth supposed to accomplish?

Simmah down nao, kiddos.


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 13, 2019)

Vice said:


> What even happened here? I mean what is this back and forth supposed to accomplish?
> 
> Simmah down nao, kiddos.


Its his fault


----------



## Phenomenon (Oct 13, 2019)

Mid Kage solely dependant on Kamui.


----------



## Ryuzaki (Oct 13, 2019)

He's comparable or stronger than the War Arc Gokage individually (Gaara, Mei, Raikage, Tsunade, Oonoki), definitely more capable/well-rounded than Hiruzen, I'd say he falls on par with HM Jiraiya and Orochimaru w/o ET.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> 1. In no universe is that the climax of the battle as the battle continues for a shit ton of chapters after that


A story divided into meaningful "segments" is unheard of? All battles following Madara's resurrection in Chapter 559 are _structurally_ similar. 



> 2. Of course it isn’t something other Jonin can achieve as literally Kakashi only could achieve it due to having Obito other eye; it was match up thing. Kakashi is the only character that could achieve it period
> 
> 3. So in your mind the authors intent wasn’t to show Naruto and Kakashi coming together to land that hit on Obito, yeah F off dude
> 
> Your so dishonest it ridiculous though a bit funny too

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Kisame (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> He wouldn't because Samehada would absorb the Raiton
> 
> 
> You don't need Kisame's physicals because Samehada was blocking B's blows in V1/2 by itself


So I reread the fight and Kisame dodges the Raiton himself and he also moves Samehada to absorb the other Raiton.

Samehada dodged V1 Bee but it's still Kisame who moved it to absorb the chakra.

Against V2 Kisame gets injured, and we don't know if Mangetsu/Fuguki are as durable.




> Why did he need the water dome? How was V2 B ever going to beat Kisame w/ Samehada even if Water Dome wasn't used.


If Kisame could capture Bee without waterdome, why did he use it? He still needed to outmaneuvre him underwater in his strongest form.


> So what is he's sliced.
> 
> That likely won't kill B; B himself can regenerate and Samehada could also heal him
> 
> ...


No it's similar to Jiraiya arriving and intercepting Kisame from cutting off Naruto's legs, because that's what Kisame was going to do. Samehada can't regenerate limbs and the sword wasn't in Bee's vicinity anyway.


> Anyway, I don't want to deep dive this point too much, as I don't necessarily disagree, i'm just saying that Kishimoto included that scene of Samehada betraying Kisame and healing B for a reason; and it's clearly to further muddle  Kisame's 'victory' and cast even more doubt on his 'win'. And I don't think that should be ignored.
> 
> 
> Maybe; but ether way I don't see anything in that statement saying he has more Chakra or Raw power then Shukaku (let alone Shukak in the desert). Shukaku still has better feats of Raw Power and this was in P1 Power-Scale during Chunin Exams; and when Shukaku was stated to still not be at Full Power.
> ...


Agreed, they should be on the same level. I'm just picking out some points here and there.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Shark said:


> So I reread the fight and Kisame dodges the Raiton himself and he also moves Samehada to absorb the other Raiton.
> 
> Samehada dodged V1 Bee but it's still Kisame who moved it to absorb the chakra.
> .


If Samehada can react to V2-B (this is the fastest B, Kisame fought); then we know it could move-itself to block/absorb the slower Base-B Raiton and V1 attacks. Therefore Kisame's own speed is irrelevant. This is not to take away that Kisame has some decent reaction feats here and 'could' have higher reaction speed then Fuguki &/or Mangetsu, but they don't need Kisame's reaction speed to be able to 'beat' B, as Samehada can do it for them.



> Against V2 Kisame gets injured, and we don't know if Mangetsu/Fuguki are as durable.


Well we know for a fact that Mangetsu with Liquid-Body; would have taken that hit way better then Kisame did

When it comes to Fuguki, Kisame took a fatal wound from V2 B; his ribs were showing; yet Samehada was able to heal him from that wound; so even if the wound is fatal, it can heal Fuguki. So unless you V2 Lariate cut Fuguki in half, Samehada seemingly can heal him; and I just don't see the evidence for Lariate cutting Fuguki in half because it simply isn't that type of Technique.



> If Kisame could capture Bee without waterdome, why did he use it? He still needed to outmaneuvre him underwater in his strongest form.


I didn't say he could capture B without Water-dome. It's possible V2-B would have been able to grab Sabo and Ponta; and escape, same applies to Fuguki and Mangetsu.

My point is that in terms of the fight; there is no way that B could have beaten Fuguki,  Mangetsu, or Kisame, while Limited to V1/V2, due to the sheer nature and type mismatch created by Samehada. (Except if Samehada betrayed one of them at an ideal moment).



> No it's similar to Jiraiya arriving and intercepting Kisame from cutting off Naruto's legs, because that's what Kisame was going to do. Samehada can't regenerate limbs and the sword wasn't in Bee's vicinity anyway.


At the same moment Ei4 was coming to intercept that attack Samehada was also coming to intercept that attack as well; and we see Samehada has arrived and wraped itself around B in the next panel. We don't know if Samehada would have made it in time to block Kisame's hit (or Empower B to block it) for sure. But as I said the whole Samehada betraying Kisame in that moment was added for a reason, and it's clearly to further muddle the conclusion of that battle and make things less straight forward.

If you think Kisame would have cut of B's leggs before Semahada reached him; cool, not saying your wrong, but I'm not so sure, and I don't think we can be sure; and I think that's the point.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> A story divided into meaningful "segments" is unheard of? All battles following Madara's resurrection in Chapter 559 are _structurally_ similar.


Meaningful segments; but the end of one segment isn't the 'Climax' of the battle, because the battle continues into other segments

And one out of context panel; is a laughable excuse to try and ignore the Main Characters heavy involvement in landing that hit on Obito.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Malnourished like the gimp you keep locked up in your basement and force to call himself Kakashi.





@Ryuzaki 
@Blu-ray 
@LostSelf 
@Atlantic Storm

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Kisame (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> If Samehada can react to V2-B (this is the fastest B, Kisame fought); then we know it could move-itself to block/absorb the slower Base-B Raiton and V1 attacks. Therefore Kisame's own speed is irrelevant. This is not to take away that Kisame has some decent reaction feats here and 'could' have higher reaction speed then Fuguki &/or Mangetsu, but they don't need Kisame's reaction speed to be able to 'beat' B, as Samehada can do it for them.
> 
> 
> Well we know for a fact that Mangetsu with Liquid-Body; would have taken that hit way better then Kisame did
> ...


Good points here, not much I can disagree with. 

I gotta admit though, this is the first time I see that panel of Samehada rushing towards Bee in the end, although I still believe the whole scene and the previous chapter ending all imply A4 saved him - but it's still a good find.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Shark said:


> Good points here, not much I can disagree with.
> 
> I gotta admit though, this is the first time I see that panel of Samehada rushing towards Bee in the end, although I still believe the whole scene and the previous chapter ending all imply A4 saved him - but it's still a good find.


Yeah man I just don’t know why the author would add in that whole sub plot or Samehada betraying Kisame and trying to aid B; for no reason; so I think it must have been to muddle the conclusion of the battle

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Meaningful segments; but the end of one segment isn't the 'Climax' of the battle, because the battle continues into other segments


Climax is, _for the purposes of this discussion_, understood as the end of that segment. It was about unmasking [] and it ended with the unmasking. Madara arrives immediately after, so it doubles as 'wrapping up' the battle with Obito as illustrated here on chapter cover [], and the manga moves into its final phase with everything converging on one point.



> And one out of context panel; is a laughable excuse to try and ignore the Main Characters heavy involvement in landing that hit on Obito.


I did present the "context" in the very first response to you, and argued that's precisely what made the feat impressive in the first place. 

1. Kakashi VS Obito is _set up_ [, ].
2. Kakashi's Kamui clashing with Obito's [].
3. Obito noting that his Kamui was faster than Kakashi's [].
4. Obito realizing that he was wrong and Kakashi, in fact, bested him [].

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Climax is, _for the purposes of this discussion_, understood as the end of that segment. It was about unmasking [] and it ended with the unmasking. Madara arrives immediately after, so it doubles as 'wrapping up' the battle with Obito as illustrated here on chapter cover [], and the manga moves into its final phase with everything converging on one point.
> 
> 
> I did present the "context" in the very first response to you, and argued that's precisely what made the feat impressive in the first place.
> ...


That’s not the climax of the battle though as you claimed 

Literally none of this changed the fact that Kakashi accomplishes that with the help of Naruto


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> That’s not the climax of the battle though as you claimed


It was _in context of this discussion_. You're bickering over semantics. 



> Literally none of this changed the fact that Kakashi accomplishes that with the help of Naruto


It's Kakashi's _*use*_ of Kamui that's being acknowledged there, and Naruto has nothing to do with the fact that _*Obito*_ couldn't perceive it ~ that his Kamui was *slower* that Kakashi's.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> It was _in context of this discussion_. You're bickering over semantics.
> 
> 
> It's Kakashi's _*use*_ of Kamui that's being acknowledged there, and Naruto has nothing to do with the fact that _*Obito*_ couldn't perceive it ~ that his Kamui was *slower* that Kakashi's.


Remove Naruto and Kakashi accomplishes nothing; this is thee most dishonest reasoning I’ve seen I a minute

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Remove Naruto and Kakashi accomplishes nothing; this is thee most dishonest reasoning I’ve seen I a minute


What does Naruto have anything to do with Kakashi's ability to perfectly _*time*_ the use of Kamui?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> What does Naruto have anything to do with Kakashi's ability to perfectly _*time*_ the use of Kamui?


You're pressing him. If you're craving facts he doesn't deliver


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> What does Naruto have anything to do with Kakashi's ability to perfectly _*time*_ the use of Kamui?


What does Naruto have to do with being able to hit Obito when he’s the one who hit Obito hahahahahaha



KisaitaParadise said:


> You're pressing him. If you're craving facts he doesn't deliver


Your craving something aren’t you


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Your craving something aren’t you


yeah freedom from your lewdness about Kakashi

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Symmetry (Oct 14, 2019)

WA kakashi is mid kage level for sure. I’d say above konan so above Sasori. Maybe like Kisame levek mid kage.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

KisaitaParadise said:


> You're pressing him. If you're craving facts _*he doesn't deliver*_


You are correct (see below).  



Turrin said:


> What does Naruto have to do with being able to hit Obito when he’s the one who hit Obito hahahahahaha


You didn't answer the question.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> You are correct (see below).
> 
> 
> You didn't answer the question.


Here the answer your incredibly dishonest

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Here the answer your incredibly dishonest


Concession accepted.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 14, 2019)

You just ended his NF career (again).

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Concession accepted.



Yes it's true - Kakashi can slip a kamui by Obito when Obito is distracted by one of the fastest and most creative fighters in the manga.

I imagine if the roles were reversed and Kakashi was engaging Naruto that Obito would Kamui Kakashi 47 times before Kakashi even had a clue what hit him.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes it's true - Kakashi can't slip a kamui by Obito when Obito is distracted by one of the fastest and most creative fighters in the manga.
> 
> I imagine if the roles were reversed and Kakashi was engaging Naruto that Obito would Kamui Kakashi 47 times before Kakashi even had a clue what hit him.


_"Their knowing of my technique changes nothing... As long as I pay attention to where his Kamui blasts the attack, I'll be fine.
//
The same move again, heh?" ~ _Obito.

Kakashi _timed _the Kamui perfectly, as he had said earlier. Obito simply failed to keep up in that moment.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _"Their knowing of my technique changes nothing... As long as I pay attention to where his Kamui blasts the attack, I'll be fine.
> //
> The same move again, heh?" ~ _Obito.
> 
> Kakashi _timed _the Kamui perfectly, as he had said earlier. Obito simply failed to keep up in that moment.



He failed because he is fighting multiple opponents. It's kinda the point.

One on one that would never happen. In fact we saw what Obito could do to Kakashi one on one - exactly whatever he wants.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> He failed because he is fighting multiple opponents. It's kinda the point.


He failed because Kakashi used Kamui _faster_ than he could he perceive; he noticed Kakashi's 'attempt' at the Rasengan but didn't see him 'stretching' the barrier. He thought that his stake _dispelled _the clone. He was perfectly focused.



> One on one that would never happen. In fact we saw what Obito could do to Kakashi one on one - exactly whatever he wants.


I am merely commenting on the fact that when their Kamui directly clashed, Kakashi emerged as a victor due to his superior technical usage. It's _humiliating_ for Obito, because he boasted _absolute mastery_ whilst belittling Kakashi's.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> He failed because Kakashi used Kamui _faster_ than he could he perceive;



Because he was distracted fighting Naruto.

"_As long as I pay attention "_


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Because he was distracted fighting Naruto.
> 
> "_As long as I pay attention "_



... and he _did_ [].

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> ... and he _did_ [].



Evidently he did not otherwise he wouldn't have been tricked.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 14, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> He didn't need to because no actual fight broke out. All that means is that he thought he could survive long enough to either escape or call other Pains to his location if it did.



He should have taken precautions considering he was an invader standing up in front the leader of a village, Jiraiya's peer and with backup. He was a sole path, by the time his other paths could've appeared it could've been too late, as it was a Kage he had in front. But like you said, he didn't consider it too dangerous, which is the point.

Regardless of the situation, and not using his behavior with Kakashi to say he's above the Sannin when I don't think he is (I hold them in Mid Kage basing on Itachi or Tobirama being the gate to High Kage), Deva's precautions with Kakashi is not something of a mere Jonin.

It's an evidence of the man being on kage level, and not a Chiyo Kage level either. Deva showing respect for the man when they met also is, though. It's not something a mere Jonin should be able to accomplish either. Not for one as powerful as Nagato with a god complex, at least.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 14, 2019)

Shin you're getting whooped like a hamburger

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Evidently he did not otherwise he wouldn't have been tricked.


What are you on about? He says that as long as he pays attention to _where_ _Kakashi is using Kamui _[*the part you snipped], he will be fine. He responded by attacking Naruto when he observed the barrier space materializing around the Rasengan, which means he _did pay attention_. He couldn't tell the difference, and thought that his stake hit the clone []. He was perfectly focused, but failed despite _that_.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 14, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> He should have taken precautions considering he was an invader standing up in front the leader of a village, Jiraiya's peer and with backup. He was a sole path, by the time his other paths could've appeared it could've been too late, as it was a Kage he had in front. But like you said, he didn't consider it too dangerous, which is the point.



That's still _if_ he didn't think he could retreat or last until reinforcements arrived though. My point is that Kakashi could have been treated the same way in the same spot. Deva was more careful in front of Kakashi because he and Kakashi _were actually in a fight_.

I read the rest of your post I just don't disagree with it.


----------



## blk (Oct 14, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Evidently he did not otherwise he wouldn't have been tricked.



Literal circular reasoning fallacy.

And how was he not paying attention when he was completely focused on the clone that Kakashi Kamui'd?

Regardless, Obito himself admitted that Kakashi was faster than him. There is no argument to be made against that.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

Hasan said:


> What are you on about? He says that as long as he pays attention to _where_ _Kakashi is using Kamui _[*the part you snipped], he will be fine. He responded by attacking Naruto when he observed the barrier space materializing around the Rasengan, which means he _did pay attention_. He couldn't tell the difference, and thought that his stake hit the clone []. He was perfectly focused, but failed despite _that_.



He's not perfectly focused. The point of feints and tricks is distraction, which is why this could never be accomplished without Naruto.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 14, 2019)

blk said:


> Literal circular reasoning fallacy.



Except it's not.

I said - "Yes it's true - Kakashi can slip a kamui by Obito when Obito is distracted by one of the fastest and most creative fighters in the manga."



> Regardless, Obito himself admitted that Kakashi was faster than him. There is no argument to be made against that.



Yes he is faster when he has Naruto to engage Obito.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> He's not perfectly focused. The point of feints and tricks is distraction, which is why this could never be accomplished without Naruto.


Naruto was the *target*, as @blk already noted [the part you snipped]:



blk said:


> And how was he not paying attention when he was completely focused on the clone that Kakashi Kamui'd?





That _*necessarily means*_ he was focused.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Naruto was the *target*, as @blk already noted [the part you snipped]:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's an easy equation to solve. If it were Kakashi and Obito only would Kakashi be capable of this feat vs Obito? No he wouldn't.

The entire point of a feint/trick is subterfuge, but you're so thirsty for a feat you would prefer to abandon this precept.

This feat is not possible without Naruto, bottom line.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's an easy equation to solve. If it were Kakashi and Obito only would Kakashi be capable of this feat vs Obito? No he wouldn't.
> 
> The entire point of a feint/trick is subterfuge, but you're so thirsty for a feat you would prefer to abandon this precept.
> 
> This feat is not possible without Naruto, bottom line.


It’s not worth it to even try to explain this to him

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Trojan (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Concession accepted.



*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*





Edit:

*Spoiler*: _2_ 



*Link Removed*
*Link Removed*


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> It's an easy equation to solve. If it were Kakashi and Obito only would Kakashi be capable of this feat vs Obito? No he wouldn't.


Our only concern is the commentary on what really happened. It's basically like arguing if Iruka ever stated that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. Did he? Yes. Problem solved.



> The entire point of a feint/trick is subterfuge, but you're so thirsty for a feat you would prefer to abandon this precept.


This is something you have to prove, which is what the discussion pertains to. I am asking you to show where in those 5-6 pages Obito was distracted, as you claimed? This is why @blk called you out on circular reasoning.



> This feat is not possible without Naruto, bottom line.


The essential element highlighted in that feat is of technical nature, viz., Kakashi's ability to perfectly time the attack. To do that, he needed to be able to see extremely well. What does that Naruto have to do with Kakashi's ability to see extremely well? That feat is simply the measure of it, which is the point.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Our only concern is the commentary on what really happened. It's basically like arguing if Iruka ever stated that Hiruzen was the strongest Hokage. Did he? Yes. Problem solved. No more, no less.



Uh...ok?



> This is something you have to prove,



No I don't.

*You have to prove this is a feat Kakashi could perform without Naruto* because this feat exist only with Naruto. You are the one attempting to extrapolate it into a feat that doesn't require Naruto. I already accept that Kakashi can finesse Obito with Kamui if Naruto is engaging Obito as per canon.

Moving along.



> The essential element highlighted in that feat



Is Naruto fighting Obito while Kakashi hides in the bushes waiting for his chance.

Something that is NOT POSSIBLE 1 V 1.

But don't let facts get in the way of your wank.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> No I don't.
> 
> *You have to prove this is a feat Kakashi could perform without Naruto* because this feat exist only with Naruto. You are the one attempting to extrapolate it into a feat that doesn't require Naruto. I already accept that Kakashi can finesse Obito with Kamui if Naruto is engaging Obito as per canon.
> 
> ...


*1.* You're _running away_ now:



ShinAkuma said:


> Yes it's true - Kakashi can slip a kamui by Obito when Obito is _*distracted*_ by one of the fastest and most creative fighters in the manga.
> 
> I imagine if the roles were reversed and Kakashi was engaging Naruto that Obito would Kamui Kakashi 47 times before Kakashi even had a clue what hit him.





ShinAkuma said:


> *Because he was distracted fighting Naruto*.
> 
> "_As long as I pay attention "_



*2. *Don't misconstrue what I argued. This is what I said, and always maintained:



Hasan said:


> I am giving Kakashi the credit for humiliating Obito_* when their Kamui clashed*_.



This is where said clash is happening:



He *directly* *competed* with Kakashi in trying to attack Naruto before Kakashi warped the Rasengan:



and failed. What I argued is basically Obito said here:



What does Naruto have to do with Kakashi's ability to _perfectly_ time his attack?



Is Kakashi *unable to see*, thereby losing ability to time his attacks properly when Naruto is not around? No. It's not different from a _certain someone_ parading around telling everyone that Tobirama's _high-reflexes_ are indicated by him managing to mark Jinchūriki Obito, despite the fact that Obito tore through his body. Or any other feat for that matter — you analyze it, and argue that's what shown and work out the technical elements that equally apply *independent *of the said feat.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> *1.* You're _running away_ now:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Hey man I don't care how you wank it. My point is *this feat is not possible without Naruto*. Without Naruto Kakashi doesn't get to focus only on timing his attack.

It's the point, hence why such a feat is impossible 1 v 1.

I'm not the one with a problem here. I fully accept that Kakashi can finesse Obito with Naruto's help. If you accept this truth then we have no issues.

I suspect you don't however.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Hey man I don't care how you wank it. My point is *this feat is not possible without Naruto*. Without Naruto Kakashi doesn't get to focus only on timing his attack.
> 
> It's the point, hence why such a feat is impossible 1 v 1.
> 
> ...


Hey man, I don't care _what could possibly have happened or not happened, since we're not the authors._ *My point *is what I already explained, and if you're going to quote me in order to refute me, then _*I am going to assume*_ you have read through what I am actually arguing and whatever you're saying relates _*directly*_ _*to*_ _*that.*_

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Hey man, I don't care _what could possibly have happened or not happened, since we're not the authors._



Well it was you who responded to Turrin premise - "I'm sorry, but your giving Kakashi credit for 'humiliating' Obito for him aiding in BM-Naruto landing a hit on Obito..."

Giving the impression this feat is possible *without Naruto*.

You can yell "kamui clash" as much as you like, but if you respond to that with this wankfest then the implication is you somehow believe this can be done without Naruto involved.

If that isn't the case please confirm.
*



			My point
		
Click to expand...

*


> is what I already explained, and if you're going to quote me in order to refute me, then _*I am going to assume*_ you have read through what I am actually arguing and whatever you're saying relates _*directly*_ _*to*_ _*that.*_



Well now you have the opportunity to disavow any implication this feat is possible sans Naruto.

Now let me use my future predicting powers - You think this feat is legit even without Naruto.

Is it another case cracked by ShinSherlockAkuma? Stay tuned for the next episode of "let's wank the fuck outta Kakashi!"

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

Naruto was merely a tool in that fragment, a space, a subject where Kakashi's and Obito's Kamui battle took place. Who was faster, smarter and more precise would win. If Obito was faster, Naruto was done.

That is literally a scene about Kakashi vs Obito, Naruto does nothing but be there to get tested on.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Naruto was merely a tool in that fragment, a space, a subject where Kakashi's and Obito's Kamui battle took place. Who was faster, smarter and more precise would win. If Obito was faster, Naruto was done.
> 
> That is literally a scene about Kakashi vs Obito, Naruto does nothing but be there to get tested on.



Invert the scenario.

Naruto is attacking Kakashi. Kakashi must use his kamui to survive and all Obito needs to do is kamui first. Does Kakashi produce the same outcome? If your answer is "no" then the argument is clear. If your answer is "yes"....welp I can't help you.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Invert the scenario.
> 
> Naruto is attacking Kakashi. Kakashi must use his kamui to survive and all Obito needs to do is kamui first. Does Kakashi produce the same outcome? If your answer is "no" then the argument is clear. If your answer is "yes"....welp I can't help you.



This scenario is not invertable, i don't get how'd that work. 

Point is, Naruto there was a texting subject. If Obito could warp the stake faster, he'd have puffed him. If Kakashi warped Naruto faster, he'd succesfully defend him and win. It's all there, who was faster and better timed wins. And Kakashi won, that's the whole point, Obito even mentions Kakashi alone here.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> This scenario is not invertable, i don't get how'd that work.



Use your imagination.



> Point is, Naruto there was a texting subject.



I understand your point. I've made mine. 

Invert the scenario. Is the outcome the same?

If you arrive at "no" then you must understand what you are saying is incorrect.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Use your imagination.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Lmao i literally said i don't get how you invert this scenario.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Lmao i literally said i don't get how you invert this scenario.



Seriously dude. Come on.

Kakashi is fighting Naruto. He has to use Kamui to survive. Obito only needs to negate and/or out time Kakashi's use in order to "win".

Does Kakashi replicate this feat where he has Naruto engaging Obito now that the tables have turned?

It's pretty clear what the answer is.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Seriously dude. Come on.
> 
> Kakashi is fighting Naruto. He has to use Kamui to survive. Obito only needs to negate and/or out time Kakashi's use in order to "win".
> 
> ...



I seriously don't get what this is... Obito's Kamui is close range, and for self defense purpose, he can't contribute anything in this scenario, where Naruto is moving out to attack another person. How is he supposed to out time Kakashi? 

If you're asking if Kakashi can warp Naruto before he hits him, then he obviously can.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Well it was you who responded to Turrin premise - "I'm sorry, but your giving Kakashi credit for 'humiliating' Obito for him aiding in BM-Naruto landing a hit on Obito..."
> 
> Giving the impression this feat is possible *without Naruto*.
> 
> ...


Yes, and my post is _*merely*_ _*a clarification*_ of what I actually meant when I said Kakashi _humiliated Obito_ in the original post. He quoted that original post.



> Well now you have the opportunity to disavow any implication this feat is possible sans Naruto.
> 
> Now let me use my future predicting powers - You think this feat is legit even without Naruto.
> 
> Is it another case cracked by ShinSherlockAkuma? Stay tuned for the next episode of "let's wank the fuck outta Kakashi!"


I _already _did, and the answer is _*I don't know*_, since I am not the author.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Yes, and my post is _*merely*_ _*a clarification*_ of what I actually meant when I said Kakashi _humiliated Obito_ in the original post. He quoted that original post.



Which Turrin covered - it's hardly humiliation when it's Kakashi and KCM Naruto vs Obito.

I think the fact that you consider this humiliation is a case closed indicator.



> I _already _did, and the answer is _*I don't know*_, since I am not the author.



Good.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> I seriously don't get what this is... Obito's Kamui is close range, and for self defense purpose, he can't contribute anything in this scenario, where Naruto is moving out to attack another person. How is he supposed to out time Kakashi?
> 
> If you're asking if Kakashi can warp Naruto before he hits him, then he obviously can.



I imagine this is simply cognitive dissonance.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I imagine this is simply cognitive dissonance.



Shin, if you wanna talk and discuss whatever, i suggest to be more clear and actually explain yourself, instead of giving repeated kinda insulting "use your immagination" type of answers, that don't explain nothing.

If you coming at me with a not cool attitude already, im not taking none of that shit, it's over right there


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Shin, if you wanna talk and discuss whatever, i suggest to be more clear and actually explain yourself, instead of giving repeated kinda insulting "use your immagination" type of answers, that don't explain nothing.
> 
> If you coming at me with a not cool attitude already, im not taking none of that shit, it's over right there



Can't be MORE CLEAR. 

Kakashi vs KCM Naruto and Obito where the only thing Obito needs to do is use his Kamui to defeat Kakashi defensive use of Kamui. 

This is neither unclear nor obtuse nor difficult to envision. It's a yes/no question. 

If no then you have your answer to everything being discussed on this topic.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Which Turrin covered - it's hardly humiliation when it's Kakashi and KCM Naruto vs Obito.
> 
> I think the fact that you consider this humiliation is a case closed indicator.


_... _Not from the _perspective _that I viewed the event. I argued what _I understood_ to be the author's intention as part of the _*story*_, which is why I directly quoted him from JumpFesta 2012. It's humiliating because Obito failed _after boasting absolute mastery that Kakashi couldn't compare to _and _then paying attention to where Kakashi aimed the Kamui — _the _borrowed eye_ won, the _original eye_ lost that day. That's freshly-served humiliation. Kakashi is simply _just too good_, and it's no wonder that even Madara was impressed, and back then, he was even compared to Itachi. Kishimoto simply _*likes*_ pointing out how good Kakashi really is, which is why towards the end, he teased the _Rinnegan _Kakashi. There's nothing more to it than that, and this is what I have _*always* _maintained.

Secondly, I have argued many times in the past that Battledome is _*our*_ headache, not Kishimoto's, so we shouldn't apply the so-called 'Battledome-logic' in _reading _of the manga. Why would anyone drag the author for, say, _Guy vs. Hashirama_? That's fundamentally the problem: people are reading the manga as the author intentionally implying that Guy defeats Hashirama, assuming the 'pressured' reading is the correct one. What do they do? They reinterpret the canonical event because their _stone-age tier-lists_ are affected. My point is that if people think feats as _Kakashi-supporters_ are arguing is inadmissible, because that would mean he _"Kamui GGs"_ everyone, then that's _*on them*_, not the author. There is nothing ambiguous about the event: This was _Kakashi's moment_ and he got it. Why would anyone –in their right minds– argue otherwise? If they think that Kakashi > Obito because of it, then that's on them — no need to throw a temper tantrum because the author never intended for it to be understood in terms of strict power-levels as they tend to be argued here. The manga does have power-levels, but they are far more intuitive and 'flexible'. Do you think that Kakashi's feats taken 'as is' imply he beats everyone? Yeah, your headache and _mine_, but if you're going to drag in the author and make a _mess _out of his work for the purposes of this place, then I am going to call you out. 

... Consider that _this _was even a debate — people have _*butchered*_ such a powerful and beautiful scene, because they think Kakashi is _low_ on their precious tier-lists. Or consider the _epic_ feat when Kakashi ripped off Mazō's arm, which Madara praised — it was fine until a certain fandom realized that it equally applied to another technique on account of being fundamentally the same one.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> _... _Not from the _perspective _that I viewed the event. I argued what _I understood_ to be the author's intention as part of the _*story*_,



You read that scene and somehow came to the conclusion Obito was humiliated?

I still don't care how you wank it that conclusion is silly.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Can't be MORE CLEAR.
> 
> Kakashi vs KCM Naruto and Obito where the only thing Obito needs to do is use his Kamui to defeat Kakashi defensive use of Kamui.
> 
> ...



You understand that we're 5 answers to each other in, and you still haven't explain what or how exactly this scenario works, or how can we invert it. You're just repeating your answers. How can i answer yes or no to a scenario where i don't even get what's supposed to happen?

The previous scenario works because they have different skillset, Obito's own close range Kamui helps him defend while Kakashi's long range helps him warp Naruto from a distance. 

You can't invert such a scenario, if Naruto charges Kakashi, Obito can't help whatsoever, Kakashi just warps Naruto and wins. How is Obito's own usage of Kamui supposed to defeat Kakashi's here? And how is that supposed to take value off the manga case, where Kakashi's speed and timing proved to be better than Obito's, by Obito's own admission? As i said, Naruto was merely a test subject, he didn't bother Obito, who in fact just had to warp a stake faster than Kakashi would use his Kamui to do something. It's straightforward actually.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> You understand that we're 5 answers to each other in, and you still haven't explain what or how exactly this scenario works, or how can we invert it. You're just repeating your answers. How can i answer yes or no to a scenario where i don't even get what's supposed to happen?
> 
> The previous scenario works because they have different skillset, Obito's own close range Kamui helps him defend while Kakashi's long range helps him warp Naruto from a distance.
> 
> You can't invert such a scenario, if Naruto charges Kakashi, Obito can't help whatsoever, Kakashi just warps Naruto and wins. How is Obito's own usage of Kamui supposed to defeat Kakashi's here? And how is that supposed to take value off the manga case, where Kakashi's speed and timing proved to be better than Obito's, by Obito's own admission? As i said, Naruto was merely a test subject, he didn't bother Obito, who in fact just had to warp a stake faster than Kakashi would use his Kamui to do something. It's straightforward actually.



Then invert their skillet but not their mastery. 

Was that so difficult?


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Then invert their skillet but not their mastery.
> 
> Was that so difficult?



Oh hell yea it was difficult, in fact, it's outta nowhere completely... 


Because Kakashi has better timing/speed compared to Obito, he still handles this better. 

Woah, finally

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You read that scene and somehow came to the conclusion Obito was humiliated?


Hey _borrowed eye_ won. That's an impressive feat. What more could one ask for? After the war, the _Academy_ published another edition of their Dōjutsu Textbook with an added clause:

"As a general rule, the _original owner_ of dōjutsu is the true master. However, there are exceptions like the _legendary Copy Ninja Kakashi of the Sharingan, now ruling over the shinobi world as Sixth Hokage._ The saviour Uzumaki Naruto, and the ever youthful Might Guy, along with Killer Bee of Kumogakure testify that he was chiefly responsible for overturning the battle in the Fourth War by demonstrating sheer mastery that humbled the original owner of his Sharingan."

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## blk (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Except it's not.
> 
> I said - "Yes it's true - Kakashi can slip a kamui by Obito when Obito is distracted by *one of the fastest and most creative fighters* in the manga."



Assuming your conclusion is the definition of a circular argument.

Prove that the event happened because of Obito being distracted.

Bold is literally irrelevant. Was Naruto using Shunshin? Did he make 10+ clones to not let Obito see that Kakashi was warping one of them? Nope.

If you replace Naruto with any other Kage level, going towards Obito with hostile intent, there is no reason why Kakashi would fail.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Hey _borrowed eye_ won. That's an impressive feat. What more one could ask for? From that day onwards, the _Academy_ published another edition of their Dōjutsu Textbook with an added clause:
> 
> "As a general rule, the _original owner_ of dōjutsu is the true master. However, there are exceptions like the _legendary Copy Ninja Kakashi of the Sharingan, now ruling over the shinobi world as Sixth Hokage._ The saviour Uzumaki Naruto, and the ever youthful Might Guy, along with Killer Bee of Kumogakure testify that he was chiefly responsible for overturning the battle in the Fourth War by demonstrating sheer mastery that humbled the original owner of his Sharingan."



@Santoryu ,@Crimson Flam3s , @Mad Scientist , @Architect 

Seems like Kakashi factually ended Obito's career there 

A whole lot of witnesses testimony this too

@MaruUchiha

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> ck



Finessing Obito is fact. 

Humiliated is wank. 

Learn the difference.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Finessing Obito is fact.
> 
> Humiliated is wank.
> 
> Learn the difference.



It's an opinion. 

Learn the definition.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Hey _borrowed eye_ won. That's an impressive feat.



Nobody said it wasn't impressive. 

The argument is if it was humiliating or not. An impressive feat does not require humiliation nor is it implied in the narrative.


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> It's an opinion.
> 
> Learn the definition.



Yes. A wank opinion. 

Learn the difference.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 15, 2019)




----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

blk said:


> Assuming your conclusion is the definition of a circular argument.
> 
> Prove that the event happened because of Obito being distracted.



I don't have to. I fully accept Obito can be finessed by KCM Naruto and Kakashi as per canon. 

If you feel this feat can be extrapolated to a 1 v 1 feat without Naruto that's on you to prove as it's contrary to canon.


----------



## MaruUchiha (Oct 15, 2019)

Ayala said:


> @MaruUchiha

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Ayala (Oct 15, 2019)

Maru, i know it's hard, you're in the first stage now. We'll get through the other 4, together


----------



## Hasan (Oct 15, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Nobody said it wasn't impressive.
> 
> The argument is if it was humiliating or not. An impressive feat does not require humiliation nor is it implied in the narrative.





Hasan said:


> It's humiliating because Obito failed _*right* after boasting absolute mastery that Kakashi couldn't compare to _and _then paying attention to where Kakashi aimed the Kamui — _the _borrowed eye_ won, the _original eye_ lost that day. That's freshly-served humiliation.





These details add texture, and make the feat colorful. That is precisely what makes Kakashi great!!

Reactions: Like 2 | Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 15, 2019)

Hasan said:


> These details add texture, and make the feat colorful. That is precisely what makes Kakashi great!!



Yes Kakashi is cool. That doesn't make it humiliating.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Oct 15, 2019)

Pretty clearly mid kage by WA


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 16, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> That's still _if_ he didn't think he could retreat or last until reinforcements arrived though. My point is that Kakashi could have been treated the same way in the same spot. Deva was more careful in front of Kakashi because he and Kakashi _were actually in a fight_.
> 
> I read the rest of your post I just don't disagree with it.



But the fight had ended. While I understand the point you are making, the same trap he could've expected from Kakashi, could also have been expected from Tsunade, unless he was too sure the village was not going to use traps or ways to dispose of him by surprise.

Of course, Deva never got close neither tried just like he didn't want to get close to Kakashi.

But I assume that fits in the "If he didn't think he could retreat". I actually think he didn't see them as a treat on that specific instance.


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 16, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> But the fight had ended. While I understand the point you are making, the same trap he could've expected from Kakashi, could also have been expected from Tsunade, unless he was too sure the village was not going to use traps or ways to dispose of him by surprise.
> 
> Of course, Deva never got close neither tried just like he didn't want to get close to Kakashi.
> 
> But I assume that fits in the "If he didn't think he could retreat". I actually think he didn't see them as a treat on that specific instance.



Deva didn't consider it ended until Kakashi was dead.

Not sure where Tsunade would have set a trap on that clear rooftop. Kakashi had debris all around him to cover a trap.


----------



## blk (Oct 16, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> I don't have to. I fully accept Obito can be finessed by KCM Naruto and Kakashi as per canon.
> 
> If you feel this feat can be extrapolated to a 1 v 1 feat without Naruto that's on you to prove as it's contrary to canon.



No, you are asserting that Kakashi was able to Kamui Naruto (without Obito noticing), because Obito was distracted by said Naruto and not because of Kakashi's speed in using Kamui.

Which is completely baseless and contrary to canon since:

- Naruto was _the target_ of Kamui, he was in front of Obito and all of the latter's focus was on him;

- Kakashi's full body Kamui was faster than the stake that Obito throw to Naruto, from like 20cm of distance;

- Obito literally stated that Kakashi was faster than him.

If you re-read the fight (chapter 598), you can see that it was all about who was better with Kamui (page 8).

Which means that Kakashi, in the same situation, could do that with any character. Whether it be Naruto, or Gai, or Bee, etc (just to cite the other ones that were present in that battle).

What do you mean extrapolated to 1v1? Kakashi's Kamui is useless against Obito on a 1v1 because it has no direct effect on him.
If you mean against other characters, obviously that is a very good speed feat for Kamui so that's sure to matter.


----------



## Atlantic Storm (Oct 16, 2019)

Somewhere between low and mid Kage-levels for me, but I feel more comfortable putting him in the former.


----------



## LostSelf (Oct 17, 2019)

FlamingRain said:


> Deva didn't consider it ended until Kakashi was dead.
> 
> Not sure where Tsunade would have set a trap on that clear rooftop. Kakashi had debris all around him to cover a trap.



Below the ceiling .


----------



## FlamingRain (Oct 17, 2019)

LostSelf said:


> Below the ceiling .



Darnit.

You win this time.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Yes Kakashi is cool. That doesn't make it humiliating.


You're arguing for the sake of arguing now, given that we have already established both you and he misread what I argued. "There must be something else, I can take issue with". You know what, I don't really care what word is more proper in capturing the feeling of shame that Obito experienced, when he realized that an outsider uses Kamui better than him ~ that he got schooled in trying to school said outsider. I thought, humiliated was a proper word, so I used it. If any other word is more apt, do let me know, for it will add to my vocabulary. As such, the next time I remind people that Obito started lashing out at Kakashi, as his mind halted when trying to process what had just transpired – I'll use that word instead. 

That said, the reason I 'debated' this long was to underscore the point that—_ladies and gentlemen_, this is why Kakashi is overrated. You make an altogether true statement about some event in the manga, people with an unhealthy obsession with power-levels start giving you appalled looks. "Are you trying to argue that Kakashi is stronger than Obito?" Imagine the leap one had to made to come to this ridiculous conclusion []. It's an interesting observation that one has to be thinking about power-levels himself to come to such a conclusion. "Hey man, it's a manga about ninja fighting each other, and a war is going on, so there's probably some _fighting_ involved".

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> You're arguing for the sake of arguing now,



Irony thy name is Hasan.

If you can agree humiliation may not be an accurate descriptor, then what are you replying for?

Deleted the rest of your response as it isn't relevant. I am _already aware of your favor for Kakashi_. Double, tripling and quadrupling down is not necessary.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> Irony thy name is Hasan.
> 
> If you can agree humiliation may not be an accurate descriptor, then what are you replying for?
> 
> Deleted the rest of your response as it isn't relevant. I am _already aware of your favor for Kakashi_. Double, tripling and quadrupling down is not necessary.


... I _*do think*_ that humiliation is an appropriate usage. I am only taking a light-hearted jab at you for repeatedly brushing aside the fact that _true master of Sharingan/Kamui getting beaten *at his own game* right after the boast_ is, in fact, humiliation.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> ... I _*do think*_ that humiliation is an appropriate usage. I am only taking a light-hearted jab at you for repeatedly brushing aside the fact that _true master of Sharingan/Kamui getting beaten *at his own game* right after the boast_ is, in fact, humiliation.



That just makes you wrong.

The idea this is humiliation is _the definition of wank_. No implication in the narrative of humiliation by either Obito or Kakashi. (or anybody present for that matter) You are simply attempting to add an implication that is never suggested.


----------



## jesusus (Oct 17, 2019)

Why would WA Kakashi be Jonin level when he's constantly portrayed to be a cut above the rest along with Gai. Title doesn't mean anything otherwise Naruto and Sasuke were genin for most of their life

Reactions: Kage 1


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> That just makes you wrong.
> 
> The idea this is humiliation is _the definition of wank_. No implication in the narrative of humiliation by either Obito or Kakashi. (or anybody present for that matter) You are simply attempting to add an implication that is never suggested.


I have already stated several times that Kakashi's feat is greatly enhanced by the author adding the _*dramatic *_value to it. Obito got floored there, and it was glorious. There are many examples of such moments in the manga. Like I said, arguing for the sake of arguing now, because everyone knows that if you state something, and expect that others will take issue — you do have some clue (if not an exact measure) as to what kind of responses they will make. Thus far, you have made none. You're just quoting me to say, "No", which isn't really an argument.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> I have already stated several times that Kakashi's feat is greatly enhanced by the author adding the _*dramatic *_value to it. Obito got floored there, and it was glorious. There are many examples of such moments in the manga. Like I said, arguing for the sake of arguing now, because everyone knows that if you state something, and expect that others will take issue — you do have some clue (if not an exact measure) as to what kind of responses they will make. Thus far, you have made none. You're just quoting me to say, "No", which isn't really an argument.


You need an argument first before someone actually has to say more then ‘no’. I could say Sakura ‘beat’ Kaguya too, igniting Sasuke, Naruto, and Kakashi involvement, if I wanted to wank Sakura, but it wouldn’t be a ‘real’ argument

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> I have already stated several times that Kakashi's feat is greatly enhanced by the author adding the _*dramatic *_value to it.



Yet in all that dramatic value _no mention of humiliation_.

Wild.



> Obito got floored there, and it was glorious.



Uh....sure?



> There are many examples of such moments in the manga.



And yet moments of _actual humiliation_ are highlighted as such.



> Like I said, arguing for the sake of arguing now,



I know _I have already pointed it out that you are arguing for the sake of arguing._



> You're just quoting me to say, "No", which isn't really an argument.



You are simply incorrect and a "no" is the most accurate response.

If you don't like hearing "no" stop making silly arguments.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)




----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You need an argument first before someone actually has to say more then ‘no’. I could say Sakura ‘beat’ Kaguya too, igniting Sasuke, Naruto, and Kakashi involvement, if I wanted to wank Sakura, but it wouldn’t be a ‘real’ argument



He has an argument already, and the Sakura situation isn't comparable to the Kakashi/Obito Kamui match right there, where Obito lost, by both facts and his own admission. 

What did Sakura do that is comparable to that, landing a hit on Kaguya who was straight rushing at her apparently forgetting she even was there? Is that really comparable, you think so?


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> You need an argument first before someone actually has to say more then ‘no’. I could say Sakura ‘beat’ Kaguya too, igniting Sasuke, Naruto, and Kakashi involvement, if I wanted to wank Sakura, but it wouldn’t be a ‘real’ argument


1. I already stated it several times: The _original_ eye lost to the _borrowed_ eye, and that's the point. Kakashi used Kamui better than its original owner, right after the original owner boasted absolute mastery that Kakashi couldn't compare to.
2. That example is a false equivalence. 



ShinAkuma said:


> Yet in all that dramatic value _no mention of humiliation_.
> 
> Wild.


A _graphic_ novel, whose cornerstone are, well, the _graphics _aided by dialogue? Do you need a commentary from the author, or flavour text by editors: _Obito got humiliated?_ No.



> And yet moments of _actual humiliation_ are highlighted as such.


This is one of them, thank you.



> You are simply incorrect and a "no" is the most accurate response.
> 
> If you don't like hearing "no" stop making silly arguments.


Read above, and the post you quoted earlier (again). If I expect that you are _addressing _my point (or showing that there's none), I would know from the way you're responding. Here's the thing:

1. Turrin misread my point, and so did you.
2. Shortly after, it became clear that I am talking about _something else entirely._
3. At which point, you started arguing _"From where did you get humiliation?"_ and started deflecting by arguing _"I agree that Kakashi's impressive"._

Bonus point: You still haven't addressed your claim to _blk_.

Which shows what? You have _*no*_ argument at all, and quite a few members have _already_ pointed out in this thread as well as other threads over the past few months. _"No, because no". _

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> What did Sakura do that is comparable to that, landing a hit on Kaguya who was straight rushing at her apparently forgetting she even was there? Is that really comparable, you think so?


Was Kaguya's byakugan turned on or off?


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Was Kaguya's byakugan turned on or off?



Don't remember


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Don't remember



*Spoiler*: _1_ 



*Link Removed*




it turned on. 
Kaguya didn't "forget" that Sakura was there, as she could literally see her.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> 1. I already stated it several times: The _original_ eye lost to the _borrowed_ eye,



Which is unrelated to humiliation.

So with the context unrelated to humiliation and the narrative indicating no humiliation it's _interesting_ that you read humiliation into it.



> A _graphic_ novel, whose cornerstone are, well, the _graphics _aided by dialogue? Do you need a commentary from the author, or flavour text by editors: _Obito got humiliated?_ No.



Yes.

You need some narrative indication of humiliation in order to assume humiliation.

Duh.




> This is one of them, thank you.



Only in your wanky fanfiction.

The pages however disagree.




> Read above,



I did.

You say Obito was humiliated. The manga indicates no such thing. Therefore the answer is "no".



> Bonus point: You still haven't addressed your claim to _blk_.



I don't care.

If a guy wants to think that fighting the strongest Konoha ninja at that point while Kakashi's waits in the bushes for his chance is somehow a "legit feat" then have at it.

I'm just here to point out that it's nonsense.



> Which shows what? You have _*no*_ argument at all, and quite a few members have _already_ pointed out in this thread as well as other threads over the past few months. _"No, because no". _



Wank arguments only require a no.

Do you really think your deluded fantasy of Obito being humiliated, which never appears on page, requires some elaborate deconstruction of your wank fanfiction arguments of "texture" and "depth"?

It's the same answer you have been getting this entire time - no.


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But you see that she was surprised Sakura was there, so either she turnt it on right there, or this moment don't make sense. 

Either way, she was going upwards towards her... But overall, this moment is not comparable at all to Kakashi's and Obito's Kamui battle


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> *Spoiler*: _1_
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's not Kakashi! There's no "texture" or "flavor" there, hence that doesn't count!


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> But you see that she was surprised Sakura was there, so either she turnt it on right there, or this moment don't make sense.
> 
> Either way, she was going upwards towards her... But overall, this moment is not comparable at all to Kakashi's and Obito's Kamui battle


No, the Byakugan was turned on from the beginning, you can reread the chapter and you will see it active throughout the chapter.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> No, the Byakugan was turned on from the beginning, you can reread the chapter and you will see it active throughout the chapter.



Ok.... But this has nothing to do with what was being argued


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> *Which is unrelated to humiliation.*
> 
> So with the context unrelated to humiliation and the narrative indicating no humiliation it's _interesting_ that you read humiliation into it.


Bingo!

_It's unrelated to humiliation *because*__________________?
_


> Yes.
> 
> You need some narrative indication of humiliation in order to assume humiliation.
> 
> Duh.



Obito _before_:



Obito _after_:



_Went from boastful to clearly shocked _[✓].
_Went from making fun of the outsider's capacity to marvelling at said outsider's capacity. _[✓]
_A clear shift in tone_ _"I... I see"_. [✓]
_Lashing out at Kakashi for outdoing him _[✓].
_Literally goes "Damn you Kakashi / Kakashi, you bastard" _[✓].

_This is not an indication of humiliation *because*_____________________?_

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Bingo!
> 
> _It's unrelated to humiliation *because*__________________?
> _
> ...



Because there is no humiliation indicated.

See you read that scene and all you can see is humiliation because it's _what you want to see_. The scene itself however doesn't indicate any such thing.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> *Because there is no humiliation indicated.
> *
> See you read that scene and all you can see is humiliation because it's _what you want to see_. The scene itself however doesn't indicate any such thing.


_*Yes, how*_______? _ 

A sensible person would know that it has something to do with *explaining* the idea of _original owner... It has something to do with the user being able to exercise the dōjutsu's power fully... A user with borrowed dōjutsu is afforded no such advantage _... They would _*explain*_ what it means to basically argue... _"You're about to get wrecked, mate, cuz I am the real deal"..._ _establish its relation with the idea... _They would _*explain*_ the meaning behind his _changed expression... why is he lashing out at Kakashi all of a sudden for outperforming him_. 
_ 
... _Then they will _*illustrate* how that is not humiliation...  For it to be considered to be humiliation x, y, z elements should be present... _They would_ *explain *through an example this could have been a humiliating experience for Obito, if so and so things had happened. 
_
Something like that._ _

It's more like you're _thirsty _for a downplay.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

> ="Hasan, post: 60760185, member: 75070"]_*Yes, how*_______? _


You want me to tell you how your Fanfiction humiliation doesn't exist?

Lol


> A sensible person would know that it has something to do with *explaining* the idea of _original owner... _


A sensible person wouldn't be hellbent on interjecting their Fanfiction narrative yet here we are.....
_



			It has something to do with the user being able to exercise the dōjutsu's power fully... A user with borrowed dōjutsu is afforded no such advantage
		
Click to expand...

_


> ... They would _*explain*_ what it means to basically argue...


Nobody is compelled to deconstruct your delusion.

It's not my problem you want to interject your Fanfiction.



> BlahblahblahSomething like that._ _


Unfortunately there is no indication of humiliation. As a result no argument is necessary as the truth is self evident.



> It's more like you're _thirsty _for a downplay.


Can't downplay something that doesn't exist.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> He has an argument already, and the Sakura situation isn't comparable to the Kakashi/Obito Kamui match right there, where Obito lost, by both facts and his own admission.
> 
> What did Sakura do that is comparable to that, landing a hit on Kaguya who was straight rushing at her apparently forgetting she even was there? Is that really comparable, you think so?


There is no defensible argument for Kakashi beat Obito on his own; when he had Naruto’s he’ll


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

@Hasan 

You seem to not understand the basic concept that Kakashi used his eye ‘better’ because he worked together with his allies. While Obito was on his own. He had a better strategy then Obito and greater support so he beat Obito out there, but he didn’t do it on his own; and there is no need to argue against that notion because it’s a an objective fact that Kakashi had help


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

ShinAkuma said:


> You want me to tell you how your Fanfiction humiliation doesn't exist?
> 
> Lol
> 
> ...


The fact that this issue could have easily been resolved with _*1 response *["No, Hasan... That's not humiliation, because the definition of humiliation is this, and as you can see, the elements indicated by the definition aren't found here, because X, and there because Y or there because Z"]._

... and the _sagely_ person kept harping on about _"No, because No"_ or _"No U" _(as fellow members have already pointed it out) after realizing how *horribly *he messed up by _misreading_ the original point, and still looking for ways to legitimize his standing.

Concession accepted.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


----------



## Quipchaque (Oct 17, 2019)

Who the hell voted low/mid jounin. I'm gonna turn that person into red mist!!


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Who the hell voted low/mid jounin. I'm gonna turn that person into red mist!!


It was....Kishimoto


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> @Hasan
> 
> You seem to not understand the basic concept that Kakashi used his eye ‘better’ because he worked together with his allies. While Obito was on his own. He had a better strategy then Obito and greater support so he beat Obito out there, but he didn’t do it on his own; and there is no need to argue against that notion because it’s a an objective fact that Kakashi had help


I get what you're saying, Turrin, but you're not seeing _what _*I* am saying. Kakashi's _faster-than-stake_ Kamui is simply a *measure *of his speed and accuracy with which he is able to perform Kamui. These are neutral quantities, and once understood, apply equally elsewhere.

... Just like you would argue that Tobirama's _high-reflexes _are indicated from the fact he was able to mark Jinchūriki Obito, and as such, we can _reasonably _apply it in so and so hypothetical scenarios to _such an extent_. Then, me telling you: _"Yeah, that's because he was an Edo Tensei zombie, and you're forgetting that he got half his body torn."_ You would rightfully argue that the said statement has *no relation *to the point you raised.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> I get what you're saying, Turrin, but you're not seeing _what _*I* am saying. Kakashi's _faster-than-stake_ Kamui is simply a *measure *of his speed and accuracy with which he is able to perform Kamui. These are neutral quantities, and once understood, apply equally elsewhere.
> 
> ... Just like you would argue that Tobirama's _high-reflexes _are indicated from the fact he was able to mark Jinchūriki Obito, and as such, we can _reasonably_ in so and so hypothetical scenarios. Then, me telling you: _"Yeah, that's because he was an Edo Tensei zombie, and you're forgetting that he got half his body torn."_ You would rightfully argue that the said statement has *no relation *to the point you raised.


Kakashi Kamui ‘speed’ is irrelevant to the idea that he ‘alone’ ‘humiliated’ Obito. Obito was ‘humiliated’ because he ‘thought’ the stake destroyed Naruto’s clone and this left him vulnerable when Naruto’s ‘TBB’ caused him to phase to box land. Kakashi certainly orchestrates this plan, but without Naruto this isn’t happening, period.

I also find it weird to say Kakashi’s warping speed is faster then Obito’s because he warped 1 object away in the time Obito warped multiple stakes.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

i





Turrin said:


> Kakashi Kamui ‘speed’ is irrelevant to the idea that he ‘alone’ ‘humiliated’ Obito. *Obito was ‘humiliated’ because he ‘thought’ the stake destroyed Naruto’s clone *and this left him vulnerable when Naruto’s ‘TBB’ caused him to phase to box land. Kakashi certainly orchestrates this plan, but without Naruto this isn’t happening, period.
> 
> I also find it weird to say Kakashi’s warping speed is faster then Obito’s because he warped 1 object away in the time Obito warped multiple stakes.


Yes, and *no* thanks to Naruto, because he was the _*target*_. It's like 100m Dash — Kakashi reached the finishing line first, and now relate it what _Obito had said earlier—! _There you go... _*my point*_. I have not commented on anything else.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> There is no defensible argument for Kakashi beat Obito on his own; when he had Naruto’s he’ll



No one ever has said Kakashi can beat Obito, but, his eye mastery and timing is better. That's all.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> No one ever has said Kakashi can beat Obito, but, his eye mastery and timing is better. That's all.


But Obito used it just as fast when they teamed up to teleport out of JJ Asspulldara's attacks...


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> No one ever has said Kakashi can beat Obito, but, his eye mastery and timing is better. That's all.


Indeed. It's a simple _appreciation_ about this beautiful moment ~


_Whose Kamui will succeed!?
_​

Reactions: Kage 1


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> But Obito used it just as fast when they teamed up to teleport out of JJ Asspulldara's attacks...



Seems like Kakashi was holding back, to not humiliate Obito once again


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> Seems like Kakashi was holding back, to not humiliate Obito once again


what about when Obito stoped Kakashi's attempt to Kamui the Gedu-Mazu & the Juubi?


----------



## Ayala (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> what about when Obito stoped Kakashi's attempt to Kamui the Gedu-Mazu & the Juubi?



What about it 

Kakashi humiliated Obito twice right after each event 

Obito can't hold a candle to him. Just check out how much better Kakashi used the double MS compared to Obito


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Ayala said:


> What about it
> 
> Kakashi humiliated Obito twice right after each event
> 
> Obito can't hold a candle to him. Just check out how much better Kakashi used the double MS compared to Obito



As @Hasan would say, Kishi "reconsidered" that feat. 
Kishi might have wanted Kakashi to look impressive at first, but then he changed that later on...Sue me..


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> The fact that this issue could have easily been resolved with _*1 response *_



I did resolve it with 1 response - no.

The lack of acceptance is your problem, not mine.
_



			"No, Hasan... That's not humiliation, because the definition of humiliation is this, and as you can see, the elements indicated by the definition aren't found here, because X, and there because Y or there because Z"].
		
Click to expand...

_
I suggest you refer back to - "Nobody is compelled top deconstruct your delusion."



> ... and the _sagely_ person kept harping on about _"No, because No"_ or _"No U" _(as fellow members have already pointed it out) after realizing how *horribly *he messed up by _misreading_ the original point, and still looking for ways to legitimize his standing.



I amazed that you would like to discuss legitimacy while simultaneously employing fanfiction.

The lack of self awareness is astounding.



> Concession accepted.



And the delusion never ends.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> As @Hasan would say, Kishi "reconsidered" that feat.
> Kishi might have wanted Kakashi to look impressive at first, but then he changed that later on...Sue me..


Hussain, do you want me to dig out _my_ post?  It's a misrepresentation and deflection alert @Ayala , because as I distinctly recall, I made that comment about Tobirama's _*character*_, based on his some 30-ish chapter run, said that Kishimoto may have changed his plans from making Tobirama a watered-down version of Minato to making him an interesting character in his own right. That his feats are legitimate, regardless of whether one believe he's stronger or weaker than Minato.



Turrin said:


> Literally that was nonsense lol


I don't know, @Turrin, but from my _viewpoint _(which is different from yours), it's pretty impressive. You don't seem to understand that you're reading my posts _assuming that I agree with you on a fundamental level — _I don't. From _my perspective_, you make absolutely no sense, but if I assume _yours, _I can see that you have a point. Again, it's no different from making _some inferences_ based on this:



If you are taking that issue with me, then why did you take issue when @Hussain and co chastized you for taking something from an event in which Tobirama was _demolished_? Why do you keep harping on about the fact that _Minato called him fast?_

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Hussain, do you want me to dig out _my_ post?  It's a misrepresentation and deflection alert @Ayala , because as I distinctly recall, I made that comment about Tobirama's _*character*_, based on his some 30-ish chapter run, said that Kishimoto may have changed his plans from making Tobirama a watered-down version of Minato to making him an interesting character in his own right. That his feats are legitimate, regardless of whether one believe he's stronger or weaker than Minato. @Turrin, but from my _viewpoint _(which is different from yours), it's pretty impressive. You don't seem to understand that you're reading my posts _assuming that I agree with you on a fundamental level — _I don't. From _my perspective_, you make absolutely no sense, but if I assume _yours, _I can see that you have a point. Again, it's no different from making _some inferences_ based on this:
> 
> 
> 
> If you are taking that issue with me, then why did you take issue when @Hussain and co chastized you for taking something from an event in which Tobirama was _demolished_? Why do you keep harping on about the fact that _Minato called him fast?_


Did someone help Tobirama tag Obito there?


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Did someone help Tobirama tag Obito there?


Did someone help Kakashi here in being able to recompose the barrier, and time the warp relative to the stake?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Why do you keep harping on about the fact that _Minato called him fast?_


Minato said he is quick to act actually. Turrin uses wrong translation... 



Hasan said:


> Hussain, do you want me to dig out _my_ post?  It's a misrepresentation and deflection alert @Ayala , because as I distinctly recall, I made that comment about Tobirama's _*character*_, based on his some 30-ish chapter run, said that Kishimoto may have changed his plans from making Tobirama a watered-down version of Minato to making him an interesting character in his own right. That his feats are legitimate, regardless of whether one believe he's stronger or weaker than Minato.


How many chapters were between

1- Kakashi teleporting Naruto's clone in front of Obito
2- Obito counting Kakashi's attempt to Kamui GM
3- Obito countering Kakashi's attempt to Kamui the Juubi
4- Obito using Kamui at the same time with Kakashi to double the speed of teleportation

Thank you...


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Did someone help Kakashi here in being able to recompose the barrier, and time the warp relative to the stake?


Did that alone ‘humiliate’ Obito or was it when Naruto hit him

I have no problem with you saying this was a good feat for Kakashi, I only find it ridiculous in the context you presented it originally, IE Kakashi alone humiliating Obito


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Minato said he is quick to act actually. Turrin uses wrong translation...


Perhaps. I am simply bringing his attention to the fact the he relies upon it and extracts an idea that works independent of the feat [i.e. Minato said he's fast, so he's _very fast_, since the fastest man said he's fast]. However, he takes issue when I say that Kakashi was able to warp the clone before Obito's stake hit it. What does Naruto have to do with the fact that Kakashi can use Kamui in one way or another? Absolutely nothing.



> How many chapters were between
> 
> 1- Kakashi teleporting Naruto's clone in front of Obito
> 2- Obito counting Kakashi's attempt to Kamui GM
> ...


Impressions _can_ change, @Hussain. It simply means that when Chapter 631 (?) came about and _I thought_ that Tobirama was supposed to be a weaker version of Minato because of a particular statement — and if I am finding a _disconnect_ between said impression and what's shown later on, then I would say that _perhaps the author changed his mind, because I think that the expectations – that *I *felt – should have followed aren't there._ It can also mean (and more likely) that my impression was _*simply wrong*_.

... and I have explained it quite a few times in the distant past _why I formed that impression?_ I thought that the statement was about Tobirama's Hiraishin being inferior — and based on the principle that as writers, you want your characters to be unique in their own rights. As such, he was simply trying to _differentiate_ between Tobirama and Minato, and found an easy  was by giving Tobirama _*old* _(perhaps prototypical version) of Hiraishin, so it doesn't take away from Minato (as he did with Minato's bodyguards). Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't weaker _mechanically_, he simply uses it in a less imaginative fashion. On the contrary, Minato _fully_ exploited the concept by coming up with creative ways that he can use the technique (The Step 2, The so-called Step 3, and possibly more), but this doesn't imply that Hiraishin *itself *is mechanically different. He simply uses it better.

With that in mind, if you think that Tobirama was _indeed_ a 'weaker Minato', then definitely, you'd argue that the impression changed. Tobirama _definitely _has remarkable feats, _*relative to Minato.*_ This is irrefutable. This is something even you have conceded to (only brushed it aside by argue that author was simply giving Tobirama a chance to shine). Tobirama > Minato / Minato > Tobirama is altogether different issue. You're conflating these two things.

Those 'reconsiderations' aren't what you're trying to argue here, or as you did _a_ _while ago . _This has nothing to do with the idea that if you think that two events of feats are mutually contradictive, the author 'reconsidered' it.



Turrin said:


> Did that alone ‘humiliate’ Obito or was it when Naruto hit him


Isn't that _the _point? Naruto ramming a Rasengan into Obito's mask isn't the feat, it's _getting_ _Naruto there_. Naruto was the _target_ of both Kamui-users ~ Kakashi and Obito _competed_ for that 'attack'.



> I have no problem with you saying this was a good feat for Kakashi, I only find it ridiculous in the context you presented it originally, IE Kakashi alone humiliating Obito


_... _But I never presented that context.  I was simply stating that Kakashi's faster than stake Kamui was very impressive, seeing that Obito claimed to be the original wielder (therefore better). It's in that context, I am arguing _humiliation_.


----------



## Trojan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Perhaps. I am simply bringing his attention to the fact the he relies upon it and extracts an idea that works independent of the feat [i.e. Minato said he's fast, so he's _very fast_, since the fastest man said he's fast]. However, he takes issue when I say that Kakashi was able to warp the clone before Obito's stake hit it. What does Naruto have to do with the fact that Kakashi can use Kamui in one way or another? Absolutely nothing.


I agree.
You are both wrong in that...  



Hasan said:


> Impressions _can_ change, @Hussain. It simply means that when Chapter 631 (?) came about and _I thought_ that Tobirama was supposed to be a weaker version of Minato because of a particular statement — and if I am finding a _disconnect_ between said impression and what's shown later on, then I would say that _perhaps the author changed his mind, because I think that the expectations – that *I *felt – should have followed aren't there._ It can also mean (and more likely) that my impression was _*simply wrong*_.
> 
> ... and I have explained it quite a few times in the distant past _why I formed that impression?_ I thought that the statement was about Tobirama's Hiraishin being inferior — and based on the principle that as writers, you want your characters to be unique in their own rights. As such, he was simply trying to _differentiate_ between Tobirama and Minato, and found an easy was by giving Tobirama _*old* _(perhaps prototypical version) of Hiraishin, so it doesn't take away from Minato (as he did with Minato's bodyguards). Tobirama's Hiraishin isn't weaker _mechanically_, he simply uses it in a less imaginative fashion. On the contrary, Minato _fully_ exploited the concept by coming up with creative ways that he can use the technique (The Step 2, The so-called Step 3, and possibly more), but this doesn't imply that Hiraishin *itself *is mechanically different. He simply uses it better.
> 
> ...



let's put all of the Tobirama & Minato takes aside...

Aren't Obito's FEAT relative to KAKASHI's irrefutable? 
Kakashi DID try to Kamui GM, and Obito stopped that
Kakashi DID try to Kamui the Juubi, and Obito, again, stopped that..

Do you deny that those feats do exist?

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> Isn't that _the _point? Naruto ramming a Rasengan into Obito's mask isn't the feat, it's _getting_ _Naruto there_. Naruto was the _target_ of both Kamui-users ~ Kakashi and Obito _competed_ for that 'attack'.
> 
> 
> _... _But I never presented that context.  I was simply stating that Kakashi's faster than stake Kamui was very impressive, seeing that Obito claimed to be the original wielder (therefore better). It's in that context, I am arguing _humiliation_.


Naruto got into a position where he could hit Obito not just due to Kakashi Kamui, but because his clone dodged tons of other Stakes; and forced Obito to phase with his TBB. 

Dude you posted a link to Naruto hitting Obito with Rasengan and called that Kakashi ‘humiliating’ Obito. If you want to say Kakashi had a good feat with Kamui there I have no problem with it


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Oct 17, 2019)

Solid Low Kage, which for me is basically the same as mid Kage to other users here.


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Hussain said:


> Ilet's put all of the Tobirama & Minato takes aside...
> 
> Aren't Obito's FEAT relative to KAKASHI's irrefutable?
> Kakashi DID try to Kamui GM, and Obito stopped that
> ...


No, but you're applying the idea of 'reconsiderations' _wrongly_, which is why I bothered to explain it, since I know very well that you're trying to _bury _the idea that Tobirama _outperformed_ Minato in a few instances. This is a wrong approach, and I told you this even last time that you're underestimating the branching effect of it. If has one has time, and is creative, you'll eventually end up with an argument: _"Naruto defeated Mizuki, therefore Tobirama is not stronger than Minato"._ Ridiculous, right? There you go. This _hurling panels war_ is precisely why people wrote themselves into the corner, so you basically end up arguing _"But my favourite panel is better than yours"_.

Kakashi's Kamui feats are _altogether_ consistent in my understanding, and is basically explained in the very event that has been the subject of much heated discussion in this thread. I will give you a hint: Kakashi's Kamui does *not *have a speed.



Turrin said:


> Naruto got into a position where he could hit Obito not just due to Kakashi Kamui, but because his clone dodged tons of other Stakes; and forced Obito to phase with his TBB.
> 
> *Dude you posted a link to Naruto hitting Obito with Rasengan and called that Kakashi ‘humiliating’ Obito. If you want to say Kakashi had a good feat with Kamui there I have no problem with it*


... _Ah!! 
_
I posted the link, so people wouldn't get confused as to _which_ of _two 'humiliations' _I was referring to.  You know, the dreaded _boxland_ _fight_. I posted it, so they wouldn't argue, "Hey man, are you trying to argue that Kakashi _legit_ defeated Obito in the boxland?"

... and yes, that's what I was talking about _from the very beginning._


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Oct 17, 2019)

@Mad Scientist Did you not read my post? I said I think he is low kage, *which is basically the same as mid Kage to others here*. I have higher standards for what I consider Kage level than a lot of people here, so what is low kage to me is mid kage to some other people. What's so outrageous about that?


----------



## Mad Scientist (Oct 17, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @Mad Scientist Did you not read my post? I said I think he is low kage, *which is basically the same as mid Kage to others here*. I have higher standards for what I consider Kage level than a lot of people here, so what is low kage to me is mid kage to some other people. What's so outrageous about that?


Just a simple disagreement.



DiscoZoro20 said:


> Who the hell voted low/mid jounin. I'm gonna turn that person into red mist!!


Definitely wooly.


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

You know Turrin's writing skill has not matured when you realise every point he makes in his wall-o-texts can be summed up without losing the points he wants get across.


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 17, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> You know Turrin's writing skill has not matured when you realise every point he makes in his wall-o-texts can be summed up without losing the points he wants get across.



There's also an actual structural problem:

"The counter to Kamui is super fast"

So he's saying that the counter to Kamui is something of a super fast nature?


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> There's also an actual structural problem:
> 
> "The counter to Kamui is super fast"
> 
> So he's saying that the counter to Kamui is something of a super fast nature?



I'll give him a break there as given the context of everything, we know what he's getting at.


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> No, but you're applying the idea of 'reconsiderations' _wrongly_, which is why I bothered to explain it, since I know very well that you're trying to _bury _the idea that Tobirama _outperformed_ Minato in a few instances. This is a wrong approach, and I told you this even last time that you're underestimating the branching effect of it. If has one has time, and is creative, you'll eventually end up with an argument: _"Naruto defeated Mizuki, therefore Tobirama is not stronger than Minato"._ Ridiculous, right? There you go. This _hurling panels war_ is precisely why people wrote themselves into the corner, so you basically end up arguing _"But my favourite panel is better than yours"_.
> 
> Kakashi's Kamui feats are _altogether_ consistent in my understanding, and is basically explained in the very
> 
> ...


No dude you posted a link of Naruto hitting Obito with Rasengan


----------



## Turrin (Oct 17, 2019)

Isaiah13000 said:


> @Mad Scientist Did you not read my post? I said I think he is low kage, *which is basically the same as mid Kage to others here*. I have higher standards for what I consider Kage level than a lot of people here, so what is low kage to me is mid kage to some other people. What's so outrageous about that?


Dude they don’t read people arguments they just see titles and get but hurt.

You could say Kakashi beats Minato, but since you labeled him ‘Low-Kage’ they would get buthurt


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> Dude they don’t read people arguments



This is unreal. 
¬________¬


----------



## Hasan (Oct 17, 2019)

Turrin said:


> No dude you posted a link of Naruto hitting Obito with Rasengan


I did, so people would know what _event_ I was referring to — not mistaking it for this one:



That is, if you clicked on the link, you were supposed to understand, "Yeah, this guy's talking about the time when Kakashi warped Naruto's clone and Obito went ~ Damn you Kakashi". These things have been discussed a _million times already, _so I assumed people knew what I meant. Why would I post a picture of Naruto, and then say Kakashi is awesome?

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Santoryu (Oct 17, 2019)

Hasan said:


> I did, so people would know what _event_ I was referring to — not mistaking it for this one:
> 
> 
> 
> That is, if you clicked on the link, you were supposed to understand, "Yeah, this guy's talking about the time when Kakashi warped Naruto's clone and Obito went ~ Damn you Kakashi". These things have been discussed a _million times already, _so I assumed people knew what I meant. Why would I post a picture of Naruto, and then say Kakashi is awesome?



1 of the coolest panels in the entire manga tbh

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (Oct 17, 2019)

@Soul I know what your thought process was when you made this thread:


*Spoiler*: __ 




Now this is a story all about how Turrin's life got flipped turned upside down and he'd like to take a minute just sit right there tell you how he became the prince of a board called NF.

In west Philadelphia born and raised on the computer is where I spent most of his days, chillin' out maxin' relaxin' all cool and all shootin' posting some theories in the Library. When a couple of Kakashi fans who were up to no good started makin' trouble in his battledome. He got in one little fight and the mods got scared and said you're movin' in Konoha Court.

He begged and pleaded with them day after day, but they packed his suitcase and sent him on his way. They gave him a kiss and then gave him his ban. He opened anime music and thought he might as well kick it. First class yo this is bad drinkin' mountain dew out of a doritos bag, is this what the people of Battledome live like... hmmm this might be all right

But wait he hears that they're full of prissy Kakashi wankers? And all that. Is this the type of place that this keyboard warrior should be sent? He wasn't think sure, he'll see when he get there after his ban. He hopes the battledome is prepared for the prince of NF.

Well uh the ban got lifted and when I came out, there were dudes that looked like a Sannin fans standin' there with his name out. Turrin ain't tryin' to get banned yet, he just got here. He sprang with the quickness like Jiraiya's toad barrier and disappeared. He whistled for Gamabunta and when he came near, the licensce plate said BD and it had pearls on his tongue. If anything he could say this toad was rare, but he thought man forget it yo homes to the Battledome!

He pulled up to the Battledome subsection at about 7 or 8 and I yelled to the toad yo Boss-sama, Arigatou Gozaimasu 'Dattebayo!

He looked at his Battledome kingdom, he was finally there to sit on my throne as the prince of the Battledome!

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## ShinAkuma (Oct 17, 2019)

Santoryu said:


> 1 of the coolest panels in the entire manga tbh



I can't deny - Obito playing Kakashi like a fiddle was very cool.


----------



## Kisaitaparadise (Oct 17, 2019)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> @Soul I know what your thought process was when you made this thread:
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: __
> ...


This is a master piece 
Munboy for president 2020


----------

