# Are the sound 5 a Kage level unit? (Kage Challenge)



## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Area: Destroyed Konoha
Knowledge: None
Restrictions: None
Distance: They have enemy surrounded, 35 meters each
Mindset: IC

Kimimaro is healthy, all others start in CS2

Question: Are the Sound 5 as a collective group a kage level opponent?


*Opponents*

Darui

Chiyo

Hanzo

Old Hiruzen

Mei

Sasori

SM Naruto


*Can they hang with any of these opponents?*


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2015)

They kill Darui low diff, Chiyo is 50/50, but because of experience I will say Chiyo mid diffs them unless someone proves me wrong.

After that, it becomes a stomp in favor of the gauntlet opponents every time.


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## Crow (Nov 1, 2015)

They can be Chiyo, and maybe just maybe Darui. After that they die to everyone else.


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## Vice (Nov 1, 2015)

Um, Kimimaro can hang with some of them. May be able to defeat Darui or Chiyo on a good day. The ones that struggled against part 1 chunin/genin get stomped the fuck out and it completely baffles me where this sound 4 wank even started from.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

No chance for Hanzo, Old Hiruzen, Sasori?

SM Naruto is clearly out of their league, I probably shouldn't have put him in there but he is also reckless, and could get caught off guard. The numbers make it plausible that they could beat Hanzo, Hiruzen and Sasori. If it was in the forest they probably would have a better chance.

And still I want the question, are they a Kage level opponent, answered!!! 

EDIT: Vice I understand your skepticism but the numbers that they have plus Kimimaro's skill and their teamwork as a whole just prompted me to ask the question.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

They stop at Hanzō, who managed to take down the young Sannin. There is _no way_ that the Sound Five are above the Sannin, even if they were all jōnin tier at the time of their defeat.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

@Rocky it's not a gauntlet. I just want to know if people think as a collective if they are Kage level. I listed some Kage level opponents to see if they can hang with any. The fact that they can compete with Darui and Chiyo automatically leads me to believe that, yes, they are a kage level unit. Maybe just Low-end Low Kage, though


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> The fact that they can compete with Darui and Chiyo automatically leads me to believe that, yes, they are a kage level unit.



Darui & Chiyo are jōnin tier, so no.

Kimimaro is also jōnin tier, and four chūnin with unique abilities that have experience working together tip the scale in Kimimaro's favor against other jōnin.


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## Vice (Nov 1, 2015)

They're mainly capable against Darui and Chiyo because of Kimimaro. The rest are just kinda there.


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## Crow (Nov 1, 2015)

Ok Matty 

They beat Chiyo because she simply doesn't have the stanima to win here. 

They can beat Darui but he has some good techs under his belt. But I think without the legendary weapons he looses.

They loose to Hanzo because of pure lack of Knowlege

Old Hiruzen is a boss in my eyes that they can't defeat. He knows too many jutsu's and they would loose to him. Hiruzen can Summon Enma and Enma can and will cut some of their numbers.

Mei wins because she was pressuring Sasuke and he had susanoo at the kage summit. Plus she has many steam and lava techs to use against them for the win. Plus her lava is Melting right through sakon and ukons rashoman gate.

Sasori destroyed a whole country for christ sake, he takes them out easily

SM naruto just rapes. Rasenshuriken GG

So no I don't think collectively that they are Kage tier. I barely even see Chiyo as Kage Teir Darui barely even touches low kage tier and I only thought that when he had the legendary weapons.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Kimimaro by himself is a Low Kage level, let alone with sniper support.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

I don't see why they can't force Hiruzen into a high dif situation. 5 vs 1 very old and easily fatigued Hokage? They have techs involving genjutsu, Insane strength. Great taijutsu from Kimi who is an absolute tank in CS2 and Kidomarus webs/arrows and also Sakon/Ukon. I can actually see them beating him with good teamwork


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## t0xeus (Nov 1, 2015)

Just because of portrayal, no.

_Hiruzen = (ok, Orochimaru was a little bit stronger but there wasn't a significant difference)  Orochimaru > Sound 5 (it's not canon or written anywhere, but I believe it's obvious as he was their leader)._

Katon Karyu Endan or any other Katon technique could give serious troubles to Tayuya/Kidomaru at that distance and Hiruzen can easily make several Kage Bunshins to avoid the possibility of Jirobo/Sakon blocking it.

And after he summons Enma, it's pretty much gg for Kimimaro in CQC.


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## FlamingRain (Nov 1, 2015)

Hiruzen gives the Sound 5 a panic attack with his Chakra and crushes them with Enma.



t0xeus said:


> _Hiruzen = (ok, Orochimaru was a little bit stronger but there wasn't a significant difference)._



He was being played with.


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## Crow (Nov 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kimimaro by himself is a Low Kage level, let alone with sniper support.



Kimimaru isn't a low kage. If he was a low kage than he would've killed Lee and Gaara very quickly. He also would've been able to kill Naruto as well. If he was a low kage than he wouldn't have been pressured by Lee's drunken fist. He would've killed them all quickly. I don't wanna hear that illness bullshit either. Because we have never seen a kimimaro without a illness. If he was low kage than he would've killed naruto very quickly even with the nine tailed cloak and when lee came, he would've ended him and gaara.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2015)

The Sound 5 get their buttholes stretched.


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## Language of Life (Nov 1, 2015)

They can beat Darui. Hell, Kimimaro could possibly beat him on his own; dude has impressive durability and i honestly think only Dauri's CQC lightening swordplay would pierce him. But Kimi is a taijutsu pro so it's a bit of a toss up. But Darui vs all 5? Darui loses. 

If Chiyo can get those 10 puppets of hers out before she is overwhelmed, then i would give her the victory. One of those puppets is worth as much as any of the 4 under Chiyo's command. 50/50

Hanzo> Jounin Sanin> Sound 5

Old Hiruzen: I feel like he should win. Portrayal is meh, but his performance against Oro and Edo Kage, plus some hype (albeit entirely trashed hype because he got to do shit) give him a chance if not the edge in my opinion. The only thing that gives the Five a chance is Kimi, and if it comes down to it he gets sealed and and it's a tie. 

Mei washes them out and then melts them.

They get past Hiruko, but once Sasori breaks out the Iron sand, the Five are fucked..

SM Naruto took on Pein and beat 5 of em. These 5 don't stand a chance.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2015)

Even Darui and Chiyo would school these bitches. 

Darui cuts through Kimi like butter with his Raiton blade and group-attacks the rest with Laser Circus. Chiyo and her 10 Chikamatsu puppets with their chakra blades do likewise, and she can also use her kunai to attach strings to the Sound ninja, take control of their bodies, and make them fight each other.


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## Crow (Nov 1, 2015)

TF type of thread is this anyways? They barely beat 2 people. 
And I'm not sure they beat them at all anyways. This is so unbalanced.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I don't see why they can't force Hiruzen into a high dif situation. 5 vs 1 very old and easily fatigued Hokage? They have techs involving genjutsu, Insane strength. Great taijutsu from Kimi who is an absolute tank in CS2 and Kidomarus webs/arrows and also Sakon/Ukon. I can actually see them beating him with good teamwork



The Sound Four are fodder to Hiruzen. Kimimaro would best Hiruzen in close combat if he used the Curse Seal, but he's going to be reduced to fodder once Sarutobi starts digging into his (tier 5/5) ninjutsu & genjutsu. The fight wouldn't last long enough for Hiruzen's stamina becomes an issue, and nobody in the Sound Five is fast & strong enough to take advantage of Hiruzen's lack of speed.

You could also think of it this way: Kimimaro is fodder to Orochimaru, and the Sound Four are _beyond_ fodder to Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama. Those three were mega-jobbing against Hiruzen, but he still kept pace. Those three would off-panel the Sound Five.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Kimimaro isn't low kage because of his fight with gaara is bad logic. Gaara was easily high Jounin tier at the time. You can even make a case that in terms of sheer power and volumes of sand manipulation he himself is a low kage. Kimi was barely being pressured and he was in base. 

Sasori lost to Chiyo and Sakura who some don't consider to be even Jounin tier. Chiyo barely kage level (known to have clashed with Hanzo numerous times and survive) so does this mean he is not kage level?


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Sound Four are fodder to Hiruzen. Kimimaro would best Hiruzen in close combat if he used the Curse Seal, but he's going to be reduced to fodder once Sarutobi starts digging into his (tier 5/5) ninjutsu & genjutsu. The fight wouldn't last long enough for Hiruzen's stamina becomes an issue, and nobody in the Sound Five is fast & strong enough to take advantage of Hiruzen's lack of speed.
> 
> You could also think of it this way: Kimimaro is fodder to Orochimaru, and the Sound Four are _beyond_ fodder to Edo Hashirama & Edo Tobirama. Those three were mega-jobbing against Hiruzen, but he still kept pace. Those three would off-panel the Sound Five.



I don't think those Edo's nor Orochimaru were as powerful as part 2. We know Sound 4 are fodder but I don't buy Hiruzen winning any way but high dif. He is outnumbered and can easily be outlasted.


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## blackguyinpinksuit (Nov 1, 2015)

They don't even beat darui or chiyo. 

Lighting circus to pin down kimi(and outright kill the other fodders) while he gets cut to pieces by raiton vibration cleaver sword.

Chiyo just have her collection of 10 clean them up. That chakra blade yoyo would cut kimimaro to shreds after a bit(it straight up ripped through a chakra blade while kimi's bones could only clash with one). Not to mention that vaccum crush move should be stronger than that.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Meh, I do think that they are low kage. for example Hidan is Low Kage in my opinion and loses very badly to the Sound 5.. It's just too much for him as a collective. Hence why I would say they are kage level as a collective


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## Bonly (Nov 1, 2015)

I'd rank Healthy Kimi as low Kage level so to me as a squad they are Kage level, out of the people listed I'd say they have a good shot at beating Hiruzen and Darui but they'd likely lost to everyone else listed more times then not


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## Language of Life (Nov 1, 2015)

Nikushimi said:


> Even Darui and Chiyo would school these bitches.
> 
> Darui cuts through Kimi like butter with his Raiton blade and group-attacks the rest with Laser Circus. Chiyo and her 10 Chikamatsu puppets with their chakra blades do likewise, and she can also use her kunai to attach strings to the Sound ninja, take control of their bodies, and make them fight each other.



True enough, im probably underestimating his CQC.  But im not sure Darui can get a finishing blow on Kimi before he is injured by the other four. 
And since he is surrounded at all sides i don't think he can put the other four down before he is forced to engage Kimi. If they were all in one spot, he would smoke em with Lazer circus and then take on beat Kimi.  I still think it's a toss up. 

I completely forgot about String placement for Chiyo. Plus she was able to dodge all of Hiruko's attacks whilst aiding Sakura in doing the same. She definitely wins; and probably takes control of Tayuya's demons, or Kido's spiders to help her.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I don't think those Edo's nor Orochimaru were as powerful as part 2.



Orochimaru is. The Edos aren't, but they're still tiers above the Sound 4.


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## Godaime Tsunade (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Area: Destroyed Konoha
> Knowledge: None
> Restrictions: None
> Distance: They have enemy surrounded, 35 meters each
> ...



Kimimaro is an Elite Jounin, the others are all low Tokubetsu Jounin/High Chuunin level. So yeah, as a group, they are probably just about Kage-level.



> Darui



Dies



> Chiyo



Dies



> Hanzo
> 
> Old Hiruzen
> 
> ...



These guys all win.​​


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## Ghost (Nov 1, 2015)

Darui slaughters them. They can maybe beat Chiyo?


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

What I find funny is the hypocrisy. If we talk about the Gokage going up against someone tiers higher people give them an edge due to "teamwork" same with Sannin. But when we are talking about the Sound 5 all of the sudden teamwork is thrown out the window. As if Hiruzen or anyone else listed besides SM Naruto can neg dif them.

Granted I get that the Gokage are way more powerful than Sound 5 as a group but my statement still rings true.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2015)

Darui isn't kage level. But even he isn't going down easily. 
Chiyo and onwards defeat them with different levels of difficulty, varying from low to mid.


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## Ghost (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> Sound 5 all of the sudden teamwork is thrown out the window.



That's because they are fodder to proper Jounin and above. Strength difference is too great.


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## Language of Life (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> What I find funny is the hypocrisy. If we talk about the Gokage going up against someone tiers higher people give them an edge due to "teamwork" same with Sannin. But when we are talking about the Sound 5 all of the sudden teamwork is thrown out the window. As if Hiruzen or anyone else listed besides SM Naruto can neg dif them.
> 
> Granted I get that the Gokage are way more powerful than Sound 5 as a group but my statement still rings true.



I don't know about giving them the edge, but they too on someone tiers above them and performed relatively well in cannon. Whether that means we should do the same or not for the five, i don't know, but it's automatically easier to give the Gokage a chance because we have seen their teamwork and how effective it is in the manga. 
On the other hand, as a team the sound four were off paneled by Kimi. It's hard to see them as anything more than an inconvenience for most of the people they are facing.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> What I find funny is the hypocrisy. If we talk about the Gokage going up against someone tiers higher people give them an edge due to "teamwork" same with Sannin. But when we are talking about the Sound 5 all of the sudden teamwork is thrown out the window. As if Hiruzen or anyone else listed besides SM Naruto can neg dif them.



Kimimaro himself can solo the Sound Four. There is a ridiculous gap between jōnin & chūnin tiers. Seriously, the Sound Four struggled with two tired special jōnin.

It's much different with the five kage going against a high tier. That's four mid tiers and a low tier teaming up. If this was Kimimaro, Zabuza, Asuma, PI Kabuto, and PI Neji (four jōnin tiers & a chūnin tier) vs. Old Hiruzen (a low tier), then _maybe_ you could claim hypocrisy. 

Even then, the gap between Mei and her kage peers (ie. the gap between the low & mid tiers) is less than the vast gap between Neji and all of those jōnin (ie. the gap between the chūnin & jōnin tiers).

*Edit:* Here's how I would set up a tier list. I'll give you an example of who's in each tier, followed by a certain number of "---'s" that indicates the gap between each tier.


*Spoiler*: _Tier Structure_ 



GoaT: Kaguya
---
God: Naruto
---
---
---
Top: Hashirama
---
---
High: Minato
---
Mid: A
---
Low: Kakuzu
---
---
Jōnin: Asuma
---
---
---
Chūnin: Tayuya
---
Genin: Exams Kiba


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Alright, I see the point your making. I can agree with that. But I still think as a collective you can consider them a kage level opponent. Wouldn't surprise me if they beat Sasori or Hiruzen with their teamwork


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## ShadoLord (Nov 1, 2015)

I don't see why they would be kage level when 4 of them lost to the preskip Konoha 11 1v1. Kimimaro alone isn't strong enough to defeat a Kage level opponent either. Gaara should have improved leaps and bounds since he became a Kazekage.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

I don't see why people think Kage levels can magically avoid Kidomaru sniping them if they're unaware. Neji when expecting it, with Jonin taijutsu, the Byakugan and a pre-emptive chakra-sensing bubble around himself, only just barely avoided an instant kill.

Kidomaru sniping on a target unaware _would_ kill Kage levels if they didn't have their durability, sensing, clone feints, etc. up. And why would they if they didn't know it was coming? The BD just spazzes out and focuses on their ranks, unable to assess abilities fairly after.

Same goes for Kimimaro. He lost to Lee and Gaara. Lee when drunk was stated to knock out Gai. Gaara's p1 ninjutsu was on another level to p1 Hiruzen and Tobirama's shown ninjutsu. But spazz rank, so Kimimaro isn't as strong as his hype even though he is.

All of the Sound 4, when using CS2, were full Jonin in power. They had 5/5 skill in an area, and then all of their stats and jutsu were boosted a great deal by the senjutsu of the Curse Seal. They were Orochimaru's chief lieutenants throughout the entire Sound Village.​


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## Deer Lord (Nov 1, 2015)

Another thread that compounds the fact kage-level has been brought down lower than street crack in the NBD.


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## Ersa (Nov 1, 2015)

People thinking the gap between Hiruzen and Kimimaro is bigger then the gap between Nagato/Edo Itachi/Minato and members of the Gokage. 



OT; Kimimaro if healthy is around low-Kage level so with 4 Chunin/Jounin backing him up he could barely edge out Hiruzen but even then it's not certain.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Kimimaro's p1 ninjutsu was so much bigger and more impressive than Hiruzen's p1 ninjutsu that it's laughable to compare them objectively. He outclasses Hiruzen in literally everything as far as feats are concerned, sans the suicide jutsu. 

Edo Hiruzen just benefitted from p2 +300% ninjutsu scaling while Edo Kimimaro's max potential wasn't shown. But for anybody that actually started reading Naruto in p1, Kimimaro blew Hiruzen out of the water in terms of ninjutsu power (and other categories.)​


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> All of the Sound 4, when using CS2, were full Jonin in power.



Bullshit. Four jōnin do not scrape by two worn-out special jōnin, nor would four jōnin lose to Kimimaro (who's the only _actual_ jōnin). 



Strategoob said:


> They were Orochimaru's chief lieutenants throughout the entire Sound Village.



That means nothing to me. _Literally_ nothing. Kakashi (like Kimimaro) is capable of beating all four of them at once, and Kakashi came quite close to dropping one in his pants at the mere _thought_ of facing Orochimaru.


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## Ersa (Nov 1, 2015)

I'm just amused with NBD bias.

They use the teamwork factor when it suits them (Gokage, Sannin) but when it comes to someone they don't care about like the Sound 5, suddenly they get stomped because their levels are so much lower. Funny how that works


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> They use the teamwork factor when it suits them (Gokage, Sannin) but when it comes to someone they don't care about like the Sound 5, suddenly they get stomped because their levels are so much lower.



_"It's much different with the five kage going against a high tier. That's four mid tiers and a low tier teaming up. If this was Kimimaro, Zabuza, Asuma, PI Kabuto, and PI Neji (four jōnin tiers & a chūnin tier) vs. Old Hiruzen (a low tier), then maybe you could claim hypocrisy.

Even then, the gap between Mei and her kage peers (ie. the gap between the low & mid tiers) is less than the vast gap between Neji and all of those jōnin (ie. the gap between the chūnin & jōnin tiers).

Here's how I would set up a tier list. I'll give you an example of who's in each tier, followed by a certain number of "---'s" that indicates the gap between each tier."_

GoaT: Kaguya
---
God: Naruto
---
---
---
Top: Edo Madara
---
---
High: Itachi
---
Mid: Raikage & Tsunade & Gaara & Ōnoki
---
Low: Mei & Old Hiruzen
---
---
Jōnin: Kimimaro
---
---
---
Chūnin: Sound Four
---
Genin: Exams Kiba


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Bullshit. Four jōnin do not scrape by two worn-out special jōnin, nor would four jōnin lose to Kimimaro (who's the only _actual_ jōnin).



They didn't scrape by shit. The CS2 itself injures the body, as was made _abundantly_ clear in the manga at that point. They weren't injured by the two Jonin. Those two Jonin did tell Shizune and her other Jonin that they stood zero chance and that the Sound 4 used abilities that were beyond that of shinobi. So they didn't scrape by any more than Gated Gai "scraped by" Kisame.​


Rocky said:


> That means nothing to me. _Literally_ nothing. Kakashi (like Kimimaro) is capable of beating all four of them at once, and Kakashi came quite close to dropping one in his pants at the mere _thought_ of facing Orochimaru.



Kakashi was not indicated to be able to beat all four of them, other than in your own imagination. Tayuya thought she could take Kakashi herself. Kabuto thought he could take Kakashi. Sakon said two people from the Sound 4 could take Kakashi. So newsflash, Rocky, _nobody_ in the manga respected p1 Kakashi like they did Kimimaro. Know why? Becuase Kimimaro, unlike Kakashi, was Kage level. Hence his ninjutsu dwarfing that of Hiruzen.​


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I'm just amused with NBD bias.
> 
> They use the teamwork factor when it suits them (Gokage, Sannin) but when it comes to someone they don't care about like the Sound 5, suddenly they get stomped because their levels are so much lower. Funny how that works



My point exactly, I don't buy the hypocrisy. It doesn't deserve to be thrown out. The teamwork between the 5 should count for something


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Those two Jonin did tell Shizune and her other Jonin that they stood zero chance and that the Sound 4 used abilities that were beyond that of shinobi.



They told Shizune she stood no chance _if she went alone_, and later, they implied they had lost only because of their fatigue from the mission they were on prior to the encounter. 



Strategoob said:


> Becuase Kimimaro, unlike Kakashi, was Kage level.



Oh my god.

Kimimaro would get his shit pushed in by every single kage introduced in the manga.



Strategoob said:


> Which is why his ninjutsu dwarfed that of Hiruzen, and even moreso Kakashi.



His ninjutsu "dwarfs" War Kakashi's too.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Point being, if full-Jonin Shizune and the other dude stood _zero_ chance against a few _injured, tired_ ninja, then they're probably not injured, tired Chunin, but four injured, tired Jonin.

Since there's such an established gap between Chuunin levels and Jonin levels. Yet none of the Sound 4 believed there to be much gap between them individually and Wave Kakashi, an elite, peak Jonin.

Also, Kimimaro would beat old Hiruzen and rusty Tsunade, as well as a couple non-Kage that are Kage level. He's well above the level of Wave Kakashi, Zabuza, p1 Kabuto, etc. Invulnerable to them.​


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## Ersa (Nov 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> _"It's much different with the five kage going against a high tier. That's four mid tiers and a low tier teaming up. If this was Kimimaro, Zabuza, Asuma, PI Kabuto, and PI Neji (four jōnin tiers & a chūnin tier) vs. Old Hiruzen (a low tier), then maybe you could claim hypocrisy.
> 
> Even then, the gap between Mei and her kage peers (ie. the gap between the low & mid tiers) is less than the vast gap between Neji and all of those jōnin (ie. the gap between the chūnin & jōnin tiers).
> 
> ...


First of all, Kimimaro is no shape or form Jounin level. At least from his statement Kabuto implied that he was stronger then himself so at bare minimum he's above an Elite Jounin and could go as high as low-Kage.

I think I would put him in the same tier as Mei/Hiruzen even if they'd be closer to the top of Low and he'd be closer to the bottom. So what we have is one low tier (Hiruzen) fighting another low and 4 low-lows. It's basically the same situation as the Gokage fighting a upper-class high tier (Nagato). Far as I can see, any high tier towards the top deals with an individual member of the Gokage just as easily as Mei deals with one of the Sound 4. 

So still seems like a double standard to me.


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## Matty (Nov 1, 2015)

Kimimaro- Low Kage/Elite Jounin at worst

Sakon/Ukon- Jounin

Kidomaru- Jounin

Tayuya/Jirobo High chunin

I think just listing it out like that clearly shows they are a Kage level opponent as a collective.

If Kimimaro is an Elite Jounin he is literally at the top of that class. Excellent Taijutsu, pretty devastating Ninjutsu and Excellent defense. It all seems like a Low Kage opponent to me...


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Well the only one that really gets my panties in a bunch is Kidomaru, because he's not just low Jonin, but a solid one. His web and sniping and summoning and analytical abilities were far, far beyond the scope of Chunin. SRA Neji would beat Kabuto. And Neji's Byakugan and Jyuken are stupidly good matches for sniping and web.

Cases for Tayuya would be having a 5+ in genjutsu and superhuman strength, speed, durability, etc. with CS2. She only lost to a summon that destroyed a forest in an instant, which is a level of power far beyond what Wave Kakashi displayed (just saying.) Shikamaru had already had a boost and previously disabled 10+ "above Chunin."

Jirobo likewise has 5+ strength and boosted speed from the CS, and only lost to BM Choji. BM Choji being the guy with strength better than Tsunade, and having hugely boosted speed. There's zero reason BM Choji wouldn't flatten Elite Jonin like Kabuto as well. It was essentially the p1 version of Eight Gates Gai.​


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> First of all, Kimimaro is no shape or form Jounin level. At least from his statement Kabuto implied that he was stronger then himself so at bare minimum he's above an Elite Jounin and could go as high as low-Kage.



I don't make a distinction between elite/normal jōnin. I put them all in the same tier. At best, Kimimaro is equal to Preskip Kakashi.

Kimimaro is not low tier/kage because he gets dismantled by every known kage.



Ersatz said:


> I think I would put him in the same tier as Mei/Hiruzen even if they'd be closer to the top of Low and he'd be closer to the bottom. So what we have is one low tier (Hiruzen) fighting another low and 4 low-lows. It's basically the same situation as the Gokage fighting a upper-class high tier (Nagato).



Top: Edo Madara
---
---     Nagato
High: Itachi
---
Mid: Raikage & Tsunade & Gaara & Ōnoki
---
Low: Mei & Old Hiruzen
---
---
Jōnin: Kimimaro
---
---
---
Chūnin: Sound Four

That is where I'd put "prime" Nagato. So we would have Nagato against four people three rungs down & one person five rungs down. This is compared to Hiruzen going against one person two rungs down and _four_ people *seven* rungs down.

It is not comparable. 



Ersatz said:


> Far as I can see, any high tier towards the top deals with an individual member of the Gokage just as easily as Mei deals with one of the Sound 4.



Ersatz my nigaa. I do like you, but don't say dumb shit.

Sage Kabuto vs. Raikage is 5,672,412x closer than Kakuzu vs. Tayuya. 

Pain vs. Jiraiya is 10,334,959x closer than Mei vs. Jirōbō.

Edo Itachi vs. Mū is 7,212,345x closer than BoPII Sasuke vs. Kidōmaru.

I will not go on.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Kimimaro's p1 ninjutsu was so much bigger and more impressive than Hiruzen's p1 ninjutsu that it's laughable to compare them objectively. He outclasses Hiruzen in literally everything as far as feats are concerned, sans the suicide jutsu.
> 
> Edo Hiruzen just benefitted from p2 +300% ninjutsu scaling while Edo Kimimaro's max potential wasn't shown. But for anybody that actually started reading Naruto in p1, Kimimaro blew Hiruzen out of the water in terms of ninjutsu power (and other categories.)​



Eh.

Hiruzen traps Kimimaro in Kongo Roheki (Enma staff prison), which is many times harder than Kimi's bones, and proceeds to bake him alive with Katon.

We also saw him smash through a massive Shinju root with Enma, which is basically equivalent to chopping Hashirama's Mokuton shoots (and Hiruzen did that, too, in part 1).

And he disarmed Orochimaru from Kusanagi while fighting blinded.

Even going by part 1 feats, Hiruzen shits on Kimi.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Hiruzen's katon didn't get through a tiny-ass suiton, so I don't see it melting kekkei genkai bones. Kimimaro can also escape by fusing with Sawarabi no Mai bone rods, but he probably wouldn't be caught in the first place as he's much faster than Hiruzen but just as skilled.

Hiruzen, on the other hand, has no real answer how to handle Sawarabi no Mai, or how to hit Kimimaro once he's fused within it. If Edo Itachi had to use Susano'o to defend against a much smaller version, I don't think the ol' "dodge!" is going to suffice. 

You actually need an applicable evasion of defense technique. Most Jonin and lower Kage levels do not have an answer to that, and it was the biggest technique in p1, and probably why Kabuto hyped Kimimaro to be well above himself and the level of Elite Jonin.​


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> If Kimimaro is an Elite Jounin he is literally at the top of that class. Excellent Taijutsu, pretty devastating Ninjutsu and Excellent defense. It all seems like a Low Kage opponent to me...



*Low Tier/Kage*

Old Hiruzen, BoPII Kakashi/Sasuke, Kakuzu, Mei, Wind Naruto, etc.

All of them take Kimimaro apart.


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## Ersa (Nov 1, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't make a distinction between elite/normal jōnin. I put them all in the same tier. At best, Kimimaro is equal to Preskip Kakashi.


Part I Kakashi is canonically equal to Part I Kabuto.

Kabuto is inferior to Kimimaro. *[][2]*

Kimimaro was literally strong enough to change the entire Konoha war. What impact did Kakashi have on the war? Hell, Tayuya thinks she can take Kakashi yet shits the bed when deathbed Kimimaro threatens her.

You think terminally ill Kakashi who can barely walk can dismantle a KN0 army with no difficulty? I doubt it. 



> Kimimaro is not low tier/kage because he gets dismantled by every known kage.


He's way stronger then the likes of Part I Kabuto and Kakashi. And he'd likely beat old Hiruzen and Rusty Tsunade if he's healthy.



> That is where I'd put "prime" Nagato. So we would have Nagato against four people three rungs down & one person five rungs down. This is compared to Hiruzen going against one person two rungs down and four people *seven* rungs down.


Kimimaro is not even two rungs down. 

Even underrating him at best you have him one rung down. With CS2 none of the S4 are seven rungs down, they're very good at the area they specialize and could give some of the weaker Jounin serious trouble.



> Ersatz my nigaa. I do like you, but don't say dumb shit.






> Sage Kabuto vs. Raikage is 5,672,412x closer than Kakuzu vs. Tayuya.


I don't see it. Kakuzu slaughters Tayuya, Kabuto slaughters Raikage.



> Pain vs. Jiraiya is 10,334,959x closer than Mei vs. Jirōbō.


SM Jiraiya is a high tier.

If we're talking base Jiraiya then Pain BT + Soul Rips him. It's a very casual win like Mei as well.



> Edo Itachi vs. Mū is 7,212,345x closer than BoPII Sasuke vs. Kidōmaru.


Yeah no, Mu with Onoki got murked by base Madara* []*. Now he's facing a MS wielding Uchiha with regenerating chakra, the Imperial Treasures, much higher intellect and clones? Yeah he gets murdered, absolutely murdered.

Kidomaru has a better chance of getting Sasuke's shoes dirty then KCM Naruto clone's whipping boy has of making Edo Itachi sweat.


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## Grimmjowsensei (Nov 1, 2015)

Hidan shits on Kimi too.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Part I Kakashi is canonically equal to Part I Kabuto.
> 
> Kabuto is inferior to Kimimaro. *[][2]*
> 
> ...



Preach.


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## ATastyMuffin (Nov 1, 2015)

I don't see Kimimaro as being stronger than, say, pre-timeskip Kakashi, and he was _shitting_ his pants  at the prospect of facing Orochimaru.

Like, the disparity between them was Aizen vs. Grimmjow. That was the evident portrayal.

Adding the Sound Four to Kimimaro's ranks makes it like two pre-timeskip Kakashis.

Do I believe two pre-timeskip Kakashis could ever beat Orochimaru?

hahahahha fuck no

Hiruzen scares the fuck out of the Sound Four with his chakra, and proceeds to flatten them.


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## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Hiruzen's katon didn't get through a tiny-ass suiton, so I don't see it melting kekkei genkai bones.



Bone doesn't have a type advantage over Katon.



> Kimimaro can also escape by fusing with Sawarabi no Mai bone rods,



The obvious solution to that would be tightening the bars of the cage and locking him in place.



> but he probably wouldn't be caught in the first place as he's much faster than Hiruzen but just as skilled.



Hiruzen's got a wealth of Ninjutsu skill to compensate in ways Kimimaro can't match, including the all-purpose Kage Bunshin. If simply bum-rushing Kimimaro doesn't work, Hiruzen can try to flank him with clones and hammer him with Ninjutsu to obscure his field of vision.



> Hiruzen, on the other hand, has no real answer how to handle Sawarabi no Mai, or how to hit Kimimaro once he's fused within it. If Edo Itachi had to use Susano'o to defend against a much smaller version, I don't think the ol' "dodge!" is going to suffice.



Itachi was facing an enemy far above Kimimaro's paygrade, inside a cave, with the rear blocked off by Kidoumaru's golden webbing (otherwise, "dodge" would have sufficed).

Hiruzen can dodge away from the encroaching bones, or lift himself above the bone field on his extending staff and vault to safety.



> You actually need an applicable evasion of defense technique. Most Jonin and lower Kage levels do not have an answer to that, and it was the biggest technique in p1, and probably why Kabuto hyped Kimimaro to be well above himself and the level of Elite Jonin.



I don't remember Kabuto's hype regarding Kimimaro. But part 1 Kabuto was ass-tier and has no place being compared with Hiruzen, who fought Orochimaru, who had Kakashi shitting his pants in terror, who Kabuto was compared to.


EDIT: Incidentally, I'd argue part 1 Kakashi and Kabuto are each stronger than sick Kimimaro, and likely on the level of what a healthy Kimimaro would be.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

You're mistaken on several layers there, Muffin. First, the obvious Kimimaro = Kabuto = Kakashi thing isn't supported by the manga. Kabuto and the Sound 4 _clearly_ place Kimimaro higher.

The Sound 4 said it would take between 1 and 2 of them to beat Kakashi. Based on that, Kimimaro is _more_ than 2-4 Kakashi. And the Sound 4 for are worth 2-4 Kakashi themselves.

Secondly, Hiruzen was nowhere near Orochimaru's level. Orochimaru was  with him . So just because Orochimaru frightened Kakashi doesn't mean Hiruzen would.

Orochimaru was two tiers above Kakashi, and Hiruzen was only one tier above Kakashi. Kakashi is only one tier above the Sound 4, and Kimimaro is a tier above Kakashi himself.​


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## Ersa (Nov 1, 2015)

I mean Tayuya thinks Kimimaro is far ahead of Part I Kakashi


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## Nikushimi (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> I mean Tayuya thinks Kimimaro is far ahead of Part I Kakashi



Tayuya thinking she had even a shot at beating Kakashi automatically disqualifies her opinion.



Strategoob said:


> So just because Orochimaru frightened Kakashi doesn't mean Hiruzen would.



That's because Hiruzen isn't a pasty boy-hungry p*d*p****.

But Kakashi was scared of Oro and he wasn't, so there is that clear disparity in their levels.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 1, 2015)

There doesn't have to be fear for there to be a disparity e.g. Asuma vs Itachi. And there can be fear when there isn't much disparity e.g. Asuma vs Hidan.


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## Rocky (Nov 1, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Part I Kakashi is canonically equal to Part I Kabuto.



They're both jōnin tier. That's about it.

Kimimaro is also jōnin tier.



Ersatz said:


> Kimimaro was literally strong enough to change the entire Konoha war.



Speaking of wars, he was brought back as a regenerating zombie with never-ending chakra.

He was paired with Chiyo, and did absolutely jack shit. 



Ersatz said:


> He's way stronger then the likes of Part I Kabuto and Kakashi. And he'd likely beat old Hiruzen and Rusty Tsunade if he's healthy.



Tf is with this disturbingly severe Kimimaro wank?

Kimimaro is slightly stronger than Preskip Gaara. Tsunade & Hiruzen would laugh at him.



Ersatz said:


> I don't see it. Kakuzu slaughters Tayuya, Kabuto slaughters Raikage [...] If we're talking base Jiraiya then Pain BT + Soul Rips him. It's a very casual win like Mei as well. [...] Kidomaru has a better chance of getting Sasuke's shoes dirty then KCM Naruto clone's whipping boy has of making Edo Itachi sweat.



Kabuto has to gradually wear A down with chakra scalpels and needs Oral Rebirth spam to not die from Raikage beating the shit out of him at v2 speeds.

Kakuzu grabs Tayuya and snaps her neck before she can do anything. 

Jiraiya fought a dramatic, multiple-chapter battle against Pain, including an off-panel bout against all six paths with one fucking arm.

Mei blasts Jirōbō in the face with molten rock before he can do anything.

Edo Itachi has a chance at dispatching Mū rather quickly due to the nature of his genjutsu. However, if there's any sort of knowledge, Itachi's means to winning now become feinting Jinton and capitalizing on the opening in Mū's invisibility with Amaterasu.

Sasuke blitzes Kidōmaru and cleaves his head off with no diff.

Please stop.


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## Amol (Nov 2, 2015)

This question is insult to Humanity.
Any Kage worth his salt easily beats them.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

>>Sound 4 barely edge out 2 tired Special Jonin
>>Kimimaro gets his hands full with P1 weakened Lee
>>Kage-level


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## Hazuki (Nov 2, 2015)

Knight of Chaos said:


> Kimimaru isn't a low kage. If he was a low kage than he would've killed Lee and Gaara very quickly. He also would've been able to kill Naruto as well. If he was a low kage than he wouldn't have been pressured by Lee's drunken fist. He would've killed them all quickly. I don't wanna hear that illness bullshit either. Because we have never seen a kimimaro without a illness. If he was low kage than he would've killed naruto very quickly even with the nine tailed cloak and when lee came, he would've ended him and gaara.



true 

kimimaro was impressed by a poor genin sick level lee speed 
also he fough naruto with no intention killer 
naruto who fought sasuke at the end of part 1 is much much stronger than the one who fough kimimaru 

sound 4 had lots of trouble and even lost for some of then , against rookied konoha genin 
sound 4 are just genin level with special ability 

kimimaru is just high chuunin level with special ability 

i really think that kimimaro is by far the most overstimate ninja in this forum 
same for the sound 4 who were defeat by genin and who were very tired after being forced to fight in cs2 against 2 poor follder juunin very tired and low chakra


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

I was thinking about teams/squads without Kage-level members that could rival a Kage. Only original 7 Swordsmen maybe.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 2, 2015)

We don't know anything about Kage Darui.  Only elite Jonin Darui who I don't think can beat Kimi due to getting pushed into the one area he's worse than Kimi in.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You're mistaken on several layers there, Muffin. First, the obvious Kimimaro = Kabuto = Kakashi thing isn't supported by the manga. Kabuto and the Sound 4 _clearly_ place Kimimaro higher.
> 
> The Sound 4 said it would take between 1 and 2 of them to beat Kakashi. Based on that, Kimimaro is _more_ than 2-4 Kakashi. And the Sound 4 for are worth 2-4 Kakashi themselves.
> 
> ...



Exactly

Now, let me post an extract from the Databooks which source the info on Naruto Wiki



> ?.. Kimimaro was regarded by Orochimaru as the most powerful member of the Kaguya clan. *He was suggested to be Kage-level, as Kabuto once commented that had Kimimaro not fallen ill, the assassination of the Third Hokage would have gone smoothly, *and Orochimaru would not have been crippled. His combat abilities far outclassed the entire Sound Four, and even near death, his mere presence was enough to frighten the normally-arrogant Tayuya.[6] The fact that he could fight and never actually be defeated by Naruto, Lee, and Gaara while dying of disease indicates he was a very powerful combatant at his peak. In addition, Kimimaro was the only person before Sasuke who could control Jūgo without exerting any efforts. After returning from death, he kept himself from being sealed away and slaughtered many enemies until Itachi Uchiha had Kabuto release the Impure World Reincarnation. In the anime, he could surround himself in a wall of white smoke, which was powerful enough to repel several enemies away from him ?...[7]
> 
> ?? Kimimaro's abilities came from his kekkei genkai, Shikotsumyaku, which allowed the user to manipulate their own skeletal structure as a means of combat. Specifically, it allowed Kimimaro to manipulate his osteoblast and osteoclast cells, which are responsible for building or breaking down bone tissue. This ability gave him absolute control over the concentration of calcium within his bones, allowing him to control the density or malleability of them. Kimimaro also stated that his bones were stronger than tempered steel. Kimimaro used this ability to wield his bones as weapons in battle, and could use them in the form of taijutsu attacks (which he called dances) to give him a variety of abilities, as well as grant him a near-invincible defence, a*ble to withstand from being crushed by being buried under 200 metres of compressed sand, and most of the impact from even a chakra-enhanced blade, and cut through regular shuriken. He can also grow an entire forest of gigantic bone blades, and even merge with one of them to climb out from underground, allowing a deadly sneak attack. Orochimaru has stated that this was the ultimate taijutsu ability, which is held in high regard, and the main reason why Orochimaru desired Kimimaro to be his next vessel.*
> 
> ...


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> There doesn't have to be fear for there to be a disparity e.g. Asuma vs Itachi. And there can be fear when there isn't much disparity e.g. Asuma vs Hidan.



it can fit in multiple Gamaken's 

 Asuma believed there was a massive disparity between them.


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## Ghost (Nov 2, 2015)

> the most powerful member of the Kaguya clan







> He was suggested to be Kage-level







> Orochimaru's strongest underlings


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

All of Orochimaru's subordinates during the Chuunin Exams were all stated to be above Chuunin level, so the Sound 4 individually should be Low-Jonin. Them losing to Genin doesn't degrade them considering all of the Genin were at least High Chuunin level individually. Actually, I'd argue that Butterfly Chouji and Neji were all Low-Jonin Ninja at the time. Even Kiba with his new technique could be considered Low-Jonin.


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## Matty (Nov 2, 2015)

So the question still is do 4 low jounin and 1 elite jounin make them a kage level collective


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> All of Orochimaru's subordinates during the Chuunin Exams were all stated to be above Chuunin level


Except that's never happened.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Except that's never happened.



Manda


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

Yes. Shikamaru was informed that there were enemies chasing them. He wasn't told from which faction they were(it was Sound+_Sand_ attacking Konoha). He made an educated guess. And said maybe. Read his whole description about what enemies they are about to face. Orochimaru had Zaku/Kin/Dosu as his underlings too. Shikamaru had no knowledge about them being dead at that point(except for Zaku being crippled). Are they low jonin too?


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> Yes. Shikamaru was informed that there were enemies chasing them. He wasn't told from which faction they were(it was Sound+_Sand_ attacking Konoha). He made an educated guess.



 He made an educated guess and still held the same perspective even after he was informed that they were Orochimaru's subordinates.



> And said maybe. Read his whole description about what enemies they are about to face. Orochimaru had Zaku/Kin/Dosu as his underlings too. Shikamaru had no knowledge about them being dead at that point(except for Zaku being crippled). Are they low jonin too?



 Except he easily defeated Kin w/ lack of knowledge on her moveset whilst being a lot weaker and he witnessed Zaku's arm being blown off. Kin and Zaku were certainly out of the question.

 Shikamaru also deduced that they were a highly skilled organized squad adept in the art of hunting. Even after Shikamaru encountered the team, he wasn't at all surprised by their abilities implying they met his evaluation.

 There's nothing at all that contradicts them being above Chuunin Level.


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## Matty (Nov 2, 2015)

Nah those bitches were pathetic. Fodder chunin


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

NarutoX28 said:


> He made an educated guess and still held the same perspective even after he was informed that they were Orochimaru's subordinates.


 About them "probably" being above chunin level? Alright.



NarutoX28 said:


> Except he easily defeated Kin w/ lack of knowledge on her moveset whilst being a lot weaker and he witnessed Zaku's arm being blown off. Kin and Zaku were certainly out of the question.
> 
> Shikamaru also deduced that they were a highly skilled organized squad adept in the art of hunting. Even after Shikamaru encountered the team, he wasn't at all surprised by their abilities implying they met his evaluation.
> 
> There's nothing at all that contradicts them being above Chuunin Level.


 You think Asuma can one-panel ~10 Jonin right after fodderstomping their squad leader(who should be noticeably stronger than his subordinates?)


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> About them "probably" being above chunin level? Alright.



 Indeed.



> You think Asuma can one-panel ~10 Jonin right after fodderstomping their squad leader(who should be noticeably stronger than his subordinates?)



 Honestly, them being above Chuunin level could very well indicate they're not Jonin level, but mainly just above what the Average Chuunin is capable of.

 Though honestly, I'm not surprised Asuma slaughtered them. Kabuto effortlessly slaughtered 3 Anbu Ninja while being noticeably below Base Kakashi.


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## Alex Payne (Nov 2, 2015)

We don't know with what exact effort Kabuto killed ANBUs. He also isn't below Base Kakashi. He is Kakashi's peer. Stated like bazillion times. 

Either way - Shikamaru simply lacks definitive knowledge on Orochimaru and his forces. He made his statement after hearing that there are enemies behind them. And made a rough estimate about what troops Sand+Sound could employ. No matter how you twist it - there isn't a solid direct link between that statement and Sound 4 level. Even though I place S4 at high-end chunin/low jonin level myself. 



NarutoX28 said:


> Honestly, them being above Chuunin level could very well indicate they're not Jonin level, but mainly just above what the Average Chuunin is capable of.


 So S4 could be those slightly above average chunins? If you stick to both of your statements.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Alex Payne said:


> We don't know with what exact effort Kabuto killed ANBUs. He also isn't below Base Kakashi. He is Kakashi's peer. Stated like bazillion times.



 We know Kabuto appeared unscathed which is a representation of an effortless fight for Kabuto. Him being stated to be on Kakashi's level merely implies that he's on the same tier, but not necessarily on par with him. This actually makes sense from what the manga represented.



> Either way - Shikamaru simply lacks definitive knowledge on Orochimaru and his forces. He made his statement after hearing that there are enemies behind them. And made a rough estimate about what troops Sand+Sound could employ.



 And yet that perspective remained uncontradicted after his encounter with the ninja. Shikmaru's assumption also stemmed from a basic principle of war in which one is not going to ambush a village with weak ninja. It wouldn't make sense for Orochimaru to deploy ninja that were on the level of Chuunin partaking the exams.



> No matter how you twist it - there isn't a solid direct link between that statement and Sound 4 level. Even though I place S4 at high-end chunin/low jonin level myself.
> 
> So S4 could be those slightly above average chunins? If you stick to both of your statements.



 That's where you misunderstood me. I concluded that if those ninja were perceived as being above Chuunin level, then the Sound 4 are certainly Low-Jonin considering they're above most of Orochimaru's subordinates due to having a more versatile arsenal and having CS Enhancements to boot.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

Ghost said:


>


but that all happened in the manga so why are you laughing



Hazuki said:


> true
> 
> kimimaro was impressed by a poor genin sick level lee speed


Bad logic because Part 1 Lee is faster than Mei Terumi even if he is Genin and she is Kage 



> also he fough naruto with no intention killer


which means he was stronger than portrayed 



> naruto who fought sasuke at the end of part 1 is much much stronger than the one who fough kimimaru


Kimimaro > Part 1 Sasuke so that proves nothing
Whats more, Orochimaru himself said he would have preferred Kimi as a container but he got sick so Sasuke was an emergency choice



> sound 4 had lots of trouble and even lost for some of then , against rookied konoha genin


But compare for average Chunin i.e. Iruka, Mizuki etc to the Sasuke retrieval team.

Im not even going to use the argument that they were defeated due to plot



> sound 4 are just genin level with special ability


They are Chunin level with a special ability that makes them jonin
Although not in these exact wordds, this was basically stated in the manga



> kimimaru is just high chuunin level with special ability


He was Elite Jonin level when sick. He was suggested to be Kage Level when healthy. Sawarabi no Mai could even put down Old Hiruzen, Part 1 Kakashi, Asuma etc



> i really think that kimimaro is by far the most overstimate ninja in this forum


i think he's the most underestimated



> same for the sound 4 who were defeat by genin and who were very tired after being forced to
> fight in cs2 against 2 poor follder juunin very tired and low chakra


Really?


Strategoob said:


> There doesn't have to be fear for there to be a disparity e.g. Asuma vs Itachi. And there can be fear when there isn't much disparity e.g. Asuma vs Hidan.



Exactly.



matty1991 said:


> So the question still is do 4 low jounin and 1 elite jounin make them a kage level collective



The Sound 5 VS Gaara. We know who would win this fight.


matty1991 said:


> Nah those bitches were pathetic. Fodder chunin



No. Just no.

Like someone said earlier Butterfly Choji could be low Jounin alone. Naruto's title is Genin but Genin don't defeat Shukaku (Naruto did this before his fight with Kimimaro). Neji was high Chunin in his fight with Kidomaru and survived attacks he shouldn't have for the plot. Temari was what was needed to defeat Tayuya and she alone is High Chunin. Shikamaru's intellect wasn't enough to beat Tayuya yet defeated Hidan.


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## Lord Aizen (Nov 2, 2015)

the sound 5 cant even touch someone like hanzo. nagato couldnt even land hits when they first met, and he owned the sannin. With no knowledge they beat chiyo but barely, with knowledge they get owned


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

The Sound 4 were Low Jonin. Shikamaru said they were way beyond the Chunin level. They were the strongest underlings of a Sannin. If Sasuke retrieval team beat them that makes them Jonin level not the Sound 4 fodder.

Kimimaro is Kage level. If you underestimate him then he is Elite Jonin at worst. He outclassed and would have defeated the same Naruto that defeated Kabuto (who was said to be Part 1 Kakashi, an Elite Jonin's equal) and Gaara (who had f*cking Shukaku out on the battlefield) so Kimimaro HAS to be Kage level. Sunagakure wouldn't have a Kage if it wasn't for Kimimaro's illness and thats a fact. Look at the difference between Healthy Itachi and Sick Itachi. If Kimimaro had been healthy, i in my personal opinion would have no problem on putting him in the same tier as Killer B and Raikage. People say Kimimaro is fodder but Orochimaru doesn't choose fodder to be his host body. Sasuke had the potential to defeat Itachi yet Orochimaru would have preferred Kimimaro's body. Surely that says something. Also Kabuto said the assassination of Sandaime Hokage would have gone smoothly if Kimimaro didn't fall ill. He is Kage level and that is a fact.

Together as a team the Sound 4 are Kage level. If they use Tayuya's genjutsu to trap them or Kidomaru's webs then follow it up with Sawarabi no Mai, i can name Kages they could beat with this. The thing is they fought individually yet were said to specialise in team work. Its the same with the Sannin but on greater degree. Individually they have amazing feats but together working together, it was said that their strength was tripled. Ask Kishimoto if you don't believe me.


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## Eliyua23 (Nov 2, 2015)

The sound 4 were weaker than the rookies or at best on par which was about Chunnin to High Chuunin , Kimmimaro at best was solid jounin level , what was stated is that if healthy he would've grown to be a Kage level ninja as his potential was close to that of Naruto,Sasuke,Gaara but no just no name a high jounin or Kage level that would struggle against Lee in pt 1 and Gaara in pt 1 please make that thread and they all get demolished shit low atakuski members like Deidara and Hidan would destroy those two.

you are who you fight in this manga and there is no way Kimi would've been fighting the likes of Lee and Gaara in pt 1 if he were that strong if he were cage level Kakashi would've never allowed those others to fight him and instead Kakashi/Asuma/Gai would've taken him on just like we saw with the 10 jounin Asuma took them on and not shikamaru 

Kabuto=Kakashi>Kimmimaro>/= top rookies


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

So Part 1 Kakashi > CS2 Kimimaro is basically what you are saying.
What are you basing this off? The fact that Kakashi doesn't have a plausible counter for Sawarabi no Mai?
Nice logic. No offence tho. But nice logic there.


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## Matty (Nov 2, 2015)

When I said the were fodder chunin i was responding to someones mention of Team sound (Dosu, Zaku, Genjustu bell girl) They were fodder who were neg diffed by gaara, shino and Shikamaru. None of them had anything really against them


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> When I said the were fodder chunin i was responding to someones mention of Team sound (Dosu, Zaku, Genjustu bell girl) They were fodder who were neg diffed by gaara, shino and Shikamaru. None of them had anything really against them



 Dosu was really the only one perceived as a threat during the Chuunin Exams.

 Him being neg-diffed by Gaara had more to do with the Shukaku's abilities considering Dosu was astonished by what Gaara was capable of even after witnessing his match with Lee.

 I would Dosu was the only solid Chuunin there. He's not fodder, but he's only decent at best.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

The Sound Four were chūnin tier, not Dosu. Dosu was a scrub.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They're both jōnin tier. That's about it.


It's been stated by both Jiraiya and Orochimaru that they were peers and could be even in a fight. P1 Kakashi = P1 Kabuto is literally canon.



> Kimimaro is also jōnin tier.


Not by what the manga showed.




> Speaking of wars, he was brought back as a regenerating zombie with never-ending chakra.
> 
> He was paired with Chiyo, and did absolutely jack shit.


He survived or dodged a FRS from KCM Naruto and had to fight the said clone. May I remind you the same clone offed Mu so if anything Kimimaro fighting against samuari/generic Jounin fodder and KCM Naruto's clone is actually impressive, just not as impressive as Edo Madara/Nagato/Itachi/etc. 



> Kimimaro is slightly stronger than Preskip Gaara. Tsunade & Hiruzen would laugh at him.


By Gaara's won admission he lost the fight and he fought him after Lee/Naruto. For someone like Kimimaro on a timer that is huge. 

And you're talking about someone who literally shouldn't have been able to walk by both Kabuto and Orochimaru's admission. He was worse then Itachi was at the time of his death as Itachi seemed decent until MS use. He then punted two low Jounin level opponents in SRA Gaara and KN0 Naruto. 



> Kabuto has to gradually wear A down with chakra scalpels and needs Oral Rebirth spam to not die from Raikage beating the shit out of him at v2 speeds.


Or just Hakugeki + Mugan Ousa him then give him a healthy dose of neurotoxins before severing his heart tendons with a senjutsu-enhanced scalpel.



> Jiraiya fought a dramatic, multiple-chapter battle against Pain, including an off-panel bout against all six paths with one fucking arm.


SM Jiraiya is a high tier, I never suggested such a gap.

Base Jiraiya fought three paths who aren't even high tier combined so yeah not sure how this is applicable. The full Six Paths of Pain murk base Jiraiya just as easily as Mei blasts Jirobo.



> Edo Itachi has a chance at dispatching Mū rather quickly due to the nature of his genjutsu. However, if there's any sort of knowledge, Itachi's means to winning now become feinting Jinton and capitalizing on the opening in Mū's invisibility with Amaterasu.


Genjutsu, Sharingan, clone, Kishimoto.

Edo Itachi has every tool he needs to stomp Muu and he has every defensive measure he needs to walk over Mu's offense. Granted Mu being able to split makes it harder for Itachi but in the overall scheme of things.

Sasuke beats Kidomaru 10/10 times.

Edo Itachi beats Muu 10/10 times.

Same story.


> Please stop.


Make me Rocky-kun


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Sound Four were chūnin tier, not Dosu. Dosu was a scrub.




Iruka
Mizuki
Demon Brothers
These were the earliest established Chunin levels. Kakashi said Naruto and Sasuke likely surpassed Iruka after the Wave Arc. Sasuke and Naruto also beat the Demon Brothers and Mizuki. 

The elite CE contestants like Neji, Sasuke, and KN0 would neg-diff blitz the Demon Brothers, Iruka, and Mizuki all at once. The scale of their speed was on another level. 

*Let me try to illustrate this for you*:

CS2 Kidomaru
-
SRA Neji (Hiashi-trained. Moved up to 4.5 taijutsu, 4 speed)
Wave Kakashi *restricted to taijutsu* (4 taijutsu, 4 speed)
-
KN0
CE Neji
-
CE Sasuke (Speed Training)
Weightless Lee
Kid Obito with 2-tomoe (blitzed Taiseki, a rock Jonin)
_*note* Obito was known as a skill-less loser, and his DB stats are *well* below DB2 Sasuke._
Kid Kakashi (no Sharingan) *(Jonin level here)*
Kabuto restricted to taijutsu (3.5 taijutsu, 3.5 speed)
-
Weighted Lee (Blitzed Post-wave Sasuke)
-
Post-Wave Sasuke (Blitzed *Zabuza 10 clones*)
Chunin Obito 
-
Pre-Wave Sasuke
Demon Brothers *(Chunin level here)*
Iruka
Mizuki
-
Pre-Wave Naruto

So what you should take away from this is that there's no level difference as far as speed is concerned between CS2 Sound 4, SRA Neji, and Elite Jonin. There just isn't. It comes down to other factors.

This is why the Sound 4 only believed it would take 1-2 of them to beat Elite Jonin Kakashi. Because they're Jonin. There is no blitz "Jonin level" gap between Jonin and genius main characters.
​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> It's been stated by both Jiraiya and Orochimaru that they were peers and could be even in a fight. P1 Kakashi = P1 Kabuto is literally canon.



Post the scans so I can see the context. They are peers, but a Kimimaro is their peer too.



Ersatz said:


> He survived or dodged a FRS from KCM Naruto and had to fight the said clone. May I remind you the same clone offed Mu



The clone that killed two kage was Datclone. It wasn't a normal clone. It withstood blows from Susano'o in base. 

Oh, and Kimimaro wasn't fighting alone.



Ersatz said:


> By Gaara's won admission he lost the fight



That's why he's bit _better_ than Gaara is.



Ersatz said:


> Or just Hakugeki + Mugan Ousa him then give him a healthy dose of neurotoxins before severing his heart tendons with a senjutsu-enhanced scalpel.



Oh, full knowledge? A tanks Hakugeki, goes v2, decapitates Tayuya before she can play the song, and shoves her head down Kabuto's throat. 



Ersatz said:


> The full Six Paths of Pain murk base Jiraiya just as easily as Mei blasts Jirobo.



The difference between base Jiraiya & Sage Jiraiya with one arm is not so vast that it goes from a prolonged battle to a no-diff stomp. 



Ersatz said:


> Sasuke beats Kidomaru 10/10 times. Edo Itachi beats Muu 10/10 times.



Edo Itachi beats Mū with the Mangekyou Sharingan.

Sasuke beats Kidōmaru by flexing his killer-intent, or he blitzes & stabs him with no diff.

I hope you can see the difference.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Iruka
> Mizuki
> Demon Brothers
> These were the earliest established Chunin levels.​



That's not my chūnin tier. Those guys are fodder with the chūnin rank. Rank means _squatah._ Meizu & Shippuden Lee are both chūnin.

My trash tier is Iruka. My genin tier is Wave Sasuke. My chūnin tier is Gaiden Kakashi. My jōnin tier is Preskip Kakashi. My low tier is Shippuden Kakashi. My mid tier is War Kakashi. My high tier is Shippuden Obito. My top tier is War Obito. My god tier is Jūbi Obito.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Post the scans so I can see the context. They are peers, but a Kimimaro is their peer too.


Kisame

Same power as Kakashi. Orochimaru says the exact same thing.

Kakashi = Kabuto.



> The clone that killed two kage was Datclone. It wasn't a normal clone. It withstood blows from Susano'o in base.


There's zero evidence supporting clones having varying degrees of power. In fact since chakra is split evenly they should be the same. It's all PIS in the end, I still think all clones are at a similar level even if Dat Clone is an outlier it change the mechanics of Kage Bunshin.



> Oh, and Kimimaro wasn't fighting alone.


Yes because he was outnumbered. 

He still dodged FRS and tore apart generic Jounin/samuari fodder. It's still impressive.



> That's why he's bit _better_ than Gaara is.


Yes, 5 minute to live Kimimaro after fighting KN0 Naruto/Drunk Lee is a bit stronger then Gaara. SRA Gaara is low Jounin.

He's also stronger then Kabuto/Kakashi by statements and Tayuya's reaction to the two of them. 

So Low Kage --> Kimimaro falls at minimum here <-- Elite Jounin (Kabuto)



> Oh, full knowledge? A tanks Hakugeki, goes v2, decapitates Tayuya before she can play the song, and shoves her head down Kabuto's throat.


Raikage being a tank does nothing to stop his resistance against sound based techniques and blinding light. He does tank the vibrations I agree.

And yeah no, he's not blitzing the guy who could react to Susanoo arrows. Sage Kabuto is way ahead of Kakashi and Sasuke in terms of pure reflexes.

Being the emotional and dull man he is, he likely gets distracted and put in genjutsu then has his heart tendons severed.


> The difference between base Jiraiya & Sage Jiraiya with one arm is not so vast that it goes from a prolonged battle to a no-diff stomp.


Yes it is.

One arm means nothing. Adult Sasuke is much stronger then VOTE2 Sasuke.

Sage Mode is an enormous power-up plus Ma&Pa. Sage Jiraiya with one arm grabs his base counterpart and caves his dead in with one kick.

I don't like ABC logic but.

Pain > Sage Jiraiya > Base Jiraiya

It's quite simple, one arm changes nothing.



> Edo Itachi beats Mū with the Mangekyou Sharingan.
> 
> Sasuke beats Kidōmaru by flexing his killer-intent, or he blitzes & stabs him with no diff.
> 
> I hope you can see the difference.


MS is so trivial for Edo Itachi that he can use it on a crow.

All I see are two lop-sided stomps with zero effort. Itachi has to flex a bit more yes but it costs him nothing.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> That's not my chūnin tier. Those guys are fodder with the chūnin rank. Rank means _squatah._ Meizu & Shippuden Lee are both chūnin.



You can't say rank means squat and then establish your tiers around rank names. You need to re-name your ranks to reflect the actual level.



Rocky said:


> My trash tier is Iruka.



He's a canon Chunin.



Rocky said:


> My genin tier is Wave Sasuke.



He canon punked two Chunin ambushing him at once. Likely Chunin+.



Rocky said:


> My chūnin tier is Gaiden Kakashi.



He's a canon Jonin. 



Rocky said:


> My jōnin tier is Preskip Kakashi.



He's knows as *the best* Jonin of the strongest village. *Elite* Jonin.



Rocky said:


> My low tier is Shippuden Kakashi.



He's a Kage candidate, who Kage-capturing Deidara feared as a threat.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Same power as Kakashi. Orochimaru says the exact same thing.



Well yeah, they're on the same level. So is Kimimaro. 



Ersatz said:


> There's zero evidence supporting clones having varying degrees of power.



Base datclone stayed with us after a blow from Susano'o. KCM regularclone got popped by Obito. Either Obito > Susano'o, or Naruto's clones differ in power.



Ersatz said:


> Yes, 5 minute to live Kimimaro after fighting KN0 Naruto/Drunk Lee is a bit stronger then Gaara.



That Kimimaro lost to Gaara. Healthy Kimimaro would have beaten Gaara high diff because he wouldn't have died at the end there.



Ersatz said:


> Sage Kabuto is way ahead of Kakashi and Sasuke in terms of pure reflexes.



Danzō could grow a fucking tree out of his arm to in time to redirected Sasuke's arrow. A was a centimeter away from taking Minato's head off. 

Call me when Kabuto gets Hiraishin or a flash-flicker. Otherwise, he isn't doing shit in response to v2 A. 



Ersatz said:


> Sage Jiraiya with one arm grabs his base counterpart and caves his dead in with one kick.



Sage Jiraiya gets trapped in Yomi Numa. What happens from there is irrelevant, because Mei would have already soloed the entire Sound Four.



Ersatz said:


> MS is so trivial for Edo Itachi that he can use it on a crow. Itachi has to flex a bit more yes but it costs him nothing.



That's bad logic. 

I guess Edo Chiyo no diffs EMS Madara, because Madara's eventually going to run out of stamina and die, while Chiyo will still have all of her chakra and no injuries. 

Itachi's MS is significantly more taxing then the "shunshin-stab" Sasuke needs to beat spiderman.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You can't say rank means squat and then establish your tiers around rank names. You need to re-name your ranks to reflect the actual level.



Ranks aren't levels. Levels are a BD thing. I list characters at their level, regardless of rank.



Strategoob said:


> He's a canon Chunin.



Who lost to the guy who lost to Ch. 1 Naruto, who's a canon Gennin. 



Strategoob said:


> He canon punked two Chunin ambushing him at once. Likely Chunin+.



Post-Wave Sasuke was about to get slammed into the ground head-first at 100mph by weighted base Rock Lee.

Unrestricted Rock Lee didn't become a chūnin until Part II, so he was a "canon genin."



Strategoob said:


> He's a canon Jonin.



So is 8th Gate Gai.



Strategoob said:


> *Elite* Jonin.



I make no distinction. 



Strategoob said:


> He's a Kage candidate, who Kage-capturing Deidara feared as a threat.



Low tier = low kage.


----------



## ~M~ (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Iruka
> Mizuki
> Demon Brothers
> These were the earliest established Chunin levels. Kakashi said Naruto and Sasuke likely surpassed Iruka after the Wave Arc. Sasuke and Naruto also beat the Demon Brothers and Mizuki.
> ...


Statement is less solid than their battle performance which based on your tier list sets them comfortably at high chunin because I don't doubt Kabuto couldn't take them even restricted.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Well yeah, they're on the same level. So is Kimimaro.


Except, Kabuto implied Kimimaro's impact on the war was much greater then his own. Unless Kimimaro had secret diplomatic powers I'm going to assume he meant his power. Then there's Tayuya's reaction to Kakashi, Kabuto's statement as well.

Bring me a panel that says Kimimaro = Kakashi, I've provided mine already.



> Base datclone stayed with us after a blow from Susano'o. KCM regularclone got popped by Obito. Either Obito > Susano'o, or Naruto's clones differ in power.


Clones are equal.

I don't believe it was retconned as shadow clones have always been inconsistent as fuck.



> That Kimimaro lost to Gaara. Healthy Kimimaro would have beaten Gaara high diff because he wouldn't have died at the end there.


A healthy Kimimaro is stronger and faster though so he'd get the job done much easier nor did he fight 2 battles previously. He could barely walk and in their conversation Kabuto implied his body had degraded. 



> Danzō could grow a fucking tree out of his arm to in time to redirected Sasuke's arrow. A was a centimeter away from taking Minato's head off.


Sasuke's mastery was lower at that point, firstly. Redirecting an arrow from inexperienced Sauce =/= Dodging EMS Sasuke's arrow

All we know is that SM Kabuto is significantly faster then Kakashi. Which honestly puts him above the inexperienced MS Sasuke v2 A managed to blitz in my eyes. And I feel that's enough to avoid a v2 A blitz. 


> Call me when Kabuto gets Hiraishin or a flash-flicker. Otherwise, he isn't doing shit in response to v2 A.


Sense and dodge him? 

He doesn't have the Shunshin or reflexes of KCM Naruto but he sure has a fair amount of warning.



> Sage Jiraiya gets trapped in Yomi Numa. What happens from there is irrelevant, because Mei would have already soloed the entire Sound Four.


Is this before or after he gets his head kicked in?

Or before he eats Frog Call and gets his head kicked in?

SM Jiraiya has all-around superior physical abilities, more powerful jutsu, Ma&Pa. He's superior in literally every single way, even with one arm.



> That's bad logic.
> 
> I guess Edo Chiyo no diffs EMS Madara, because Madara's eventually going to run out of stamina and die, while Chiyo will still have all of her chakra and no injuries.


Seeing as Madara knows Edo Tensei I'm going to say he knows a way to stop the jutsu. 

And no, Chiyo would take days on end to wear him down after a long and tough fight for herself. 

That's not the same as Itachi going MS and frying Muu, finding his split clone and frying him again. Zero effort and zero stamina wasted.


> Itachi's MS is significantly more taxing then the "shunshin-stab" Sasuke needs to beat spiderman.


Not when you have regenerating stamina.

Itachi in the Nagato fight used enough jutsu to make him exhausted while alive and instead of resting he decides to use Amaterasu on a crow. It's zero effort for him to use MS.


----------



## UchihaX28 (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> The Sound Four were chūnin tier, not Dosu. Dosu was a scrub.



 I wouldn't say he was a scrub.

 He forced Weighted Lee to use his forbidden technique which implies he was on par with 2T Sasuke (Post-Wave Arc) Sasuke physically though likely above him due to his ability to project and alter the direction of sound which moves faster than what most Chuunin are capable of.

 Even Shikamaru complimented him as being one of the more threatening ninja along side Neji and Gaara. He was certainly below them, but he certainly wasn't a scrub. He's just a solid Chuunin IMO.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Except, Kabuto implied Kimimaro's impact on the war was much greater then his own [...] Then there's Tayuya's reaction to Kakashi, Kabuto's statement as well.



I don't even remember Kabuto participating in the war, Tayuya's reaction means jack unless she fully understood the scope of Kakashi's ability. Kakashi wasn't scared of Itachi, but almost cried at the thought of facing Orochimaru.



Ersatz said:


> Shadow clones have always been inconsistent as fuck.



...which is why I don't care about what Naruto's clone did to Raikage. That clone didn't fight Kimimaro.



Ersatz said:


> He could barely walk and in their conversation Kabuto implied his body had degraded.



He had no trouble moving at all against Lee or Gaara. _None._ Go ahead on give me a panel of his illness affecting him during those battles. I can pull up like seventeen scans from Itachi vs. Sasuke if you want an example of what I mean.



Ersatz said:


> Sasuke's mastery was lower at that point [...] SM Kabuto is significantly faster then Kakashi [...] which honestly puts him above the inexperienced MS Sasuke v2



Enlighten me. 

What the duece does experience have to do with arrow speed? When the flying fuck did the _blind_ Sasuke find the time to train his arrow speed lol. How does Kabuto being faster than Kakashi put him _above_ MS Sasuke? Did I miss some beastly Summit Kakashi speed feat? Kakashi's probably not evading A's _base_ flicker, let alone v2. 

Until Kabuto becomes the Yellow Flash, he isn't dodging Raikage. In regards to the arrow, I will hold on to my fucks until it gets speed feats better than dodging Amaterasu from point-blank range. 



Ersatz said:


> He doesn't have the Shunshin or reflexes of KCM Naruto but he sure has a fair amount of warning.



Raikage gave KCM Naruto a warning before he blitzed in, and KCM Naruto can sense mallicious intent anyway.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Ranks aren't levels. Levels are a BD thing. I list characters at their level, regardless of rank.



The name of your levels are based on rank. You should change the names of your levels to reflect the rank, because right now they're retarded. You have people that can neg-diff Chunin being Genin level. It's retarded.



Rocky said:


> Who lost to the guy who lost to Ch. 1 Naruto, who's a canon Gennin.



Naruto's an especially gifted main character in the story whose level is going to frequently going to exceed his rank. Mizuki still achieved the rank of Chunin and was Chunin level.



Rocky said:


> Post-Wave Sasuke was about to get slammed into the ground head-first at 100mph by weighted base Rock Lee.



Wave Sasuke's an especially gifted main character in the story whose level is going to frequently going to exceed his rank. Demon achieved the rank of Chunin and were Chunin Level. Sasuke punked them before his Wave boost.



Rocky said:


> Unrestricted Rock Lee didn't become a chūnin until Part II, so he was a "canon genin."



Rock Lee's an especially gifted main character in the story whose level is going to frequently going to exceed his rank. He blitzed someone that blitzed ten Elite Jonin clones at once (Wave Sasuke,) and could easily blitz Chunin. 



Rocky said:


> So is 8th Gate Gai.



Gai's an especially gifted main character in the story whose level is going to frequently going to exceed his rank. 



Rocky said:


> I make no distinction.



You should make the distinction. "A professional football player" and "The greatest football player in the best league in the world" are huge distinctions. That's the difference between "a" Jonin level and Wave Kakashi.

Right now your basic Jonin example is the stated greatest Jonin in the greatest village (Wave Kakashi,) and your Chunin example is a Jonin (Kid Kakashi.) Do you not get how stupid your naming scheme is with that?

When you say Jonin level, you mean elite Jonin level. When you say Chunin level, you mean Jonin level. When you say Genin level, you mean Chunin level. When you say trash level, you mean Genin level.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> You have people that can neg-diff Chunin being Genin level. Fucking retarded dude.



There is nobody on my gennin tier that can no diff a guy on my chūnin tier. I give no fucks about actual ranks. For example:



Strategoob said:


> Mizuki still achieved the rank of Chunin and was Chunin level



Mizuki gets taken apart by Rock Lee, who was not promoted to chūnin.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

When you say Jonin level, you mean elite Jonin level. When you say Chunin level, you mean Jonin level. When you say Genin level, you mean Chunin level. When you say trash level, you mean Genin level.

That way you don't have to say that people of the Chunin rank are Genin level, or that weak Chunin bordering on Genin are "trash" level. Your opinion of levels actually reflects the ranks in the manga accurately.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't even remember Kabuto participating in the war, Tayuya's reaction means jack unless she fully understood the scope of Kakashi's ability. Kakashi wasn't scared of Itachi, but almost cried at the thought of facing Orochimaru.


Kabuto used genjutsu on the stadium and fought off a couple of Konoha jounin iirc. Irregardless it wasn't a comparison between the two but the fact that one person alone would've won them the war.

Kabuto impact on the war -> Mild
Kimimaro's impact on the war -> We would've won and saved your arms.

Yeah, one generic Jounin is going to do that. Let me know how Kurenai turns the tides of Konoha vs. The Sound Village. 

It's basically an admission from Kabuto plus the fact he consider Kimimaro higher then him in terms of Orochimaru's subordinates. 

Tayuya knows of his reputation. What is the author intent behind having her not think much of Kakashi yet shit the bed when Kimimaro shows up?

And Kakashi shit his pants when Itachi got serious but tried to keep calm cause he had people there. He's also more in shape by the time Itachi arrives as well as evidenced by feats and DB stats.



> ...which is why I don't care about what Naruto's clone did to Raikage. That clone didn't fight Kimimaro.


Kimimaro fought a KCM clone.

Clones are equal in power as per manga canon with inconsistency due to author error.



> He had no trouble moving at all against Lee or Gaara. _None._ Go ahead on give me a panel of his illness affecting him during those battles. I can pull up like seventeen scans from Itachi vs. Sasuke if you want an example of what I mean.


Illness affecting him? I mean death is usually a sign of having an illness isn't it? Would a superstar tennis player with cancer go out and play a Grand Slam then die instantly before he wins the final set?

We have a statement by Orochimaru asking how the hell can the man even walk? Tayuya even says he's half dead before the fight even starts. If anything the fact he endured and showed little weakness is more impressive.

Itachi was doing just as well as Kimimaro until the backlash from MS kicked in. In Kimimaro's case it wasn't backlash, he just died.



> Enlighten me.
> 
> What the duece does experience have to do with arrow speed? When the flying fuck did the _blind_ Sasuke find the time to train his arrow speed lol. How does Kabuto being faster than Kakashi put him _above_ MS Sasuke? Did I miss some beastly Summit Kakashi speed feat? Kakashi's probably not evading A's _base_ flicker, let alone v2.


Why is Kakashi not similar in speed to inexperienced MS Sauce? I don't think he's far but I'm talking reflexes.

They both have 4.5 in the DB, they both have Sharingan. Kakashi has a plethora of solid reaction feats at this point. I mean Sasuke dodged v1 A but I can roll with Kakashi getting blitzed by Base A. It just means Itachi's reflexes are several tiers higher then a man who keeps up with Gai easily 



> Until Kabuto becomes the Yellow Flash, he isn't dodging Raikage. In regards to the arrow, I will hold on to my fucks until it gets speed feats better than dodging Amaterasu from point-blank range.


I mean, his feat of blitzing Sauce is no different from the arrow blitzing Kakashi? It's so fast it forces the user to throw up a defense instead of dodging.

I don't see the difference really. Summit Arc Kakashi is similar to inexperienced MS Sauce in terms of reflexes honestly. Or at least any different is fairly minor.


> Raikage gave KCM Naruto a warning before he blitzed in, and KCM Naruto can sense mallicious intent anyway.


From what I can see, sage sensing is superior.

Given how Naruto used that instead of KCM for Papa Raikage.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

"Illness didn't affect him."  ​


> Kabuto used genjutsu on the stadium and fought off a couple of Konoha jounin iirc. Irregardless it wasn't a comparison between the two but the fact that one person alone would've won them the war.
> 
> Kabuto impact on the war -> Mild
> Kimimaro's impact on the war -> We would've won and saved your arms.
> ...



Great point, but Kurenai isn't even a generic Jonin. She's the best genjutsu user in all of Konoha. Still wouldn't make a fraction of the difference Kimimaro was stated to be able to make.​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> When you say Jonin level, you mean elite Jonin level. When you say Chunin level, you mean Jonin level. When you say Genin level, you mean Chunin level. When you say trash level, you mean Genin level.



I think the Sound Four are chūnin. If you want to call Kidōmaru jōnin tier, then tell me, which tier do Jūgo & Suigetsu occupy? 

If you're going say that they've surpassed jōnin tier and breached the kage-level boundary, then let me know which kage they beat.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 2, 2015)

Not sure why you think Jugo and Suigetsu are so much stronger than Kidomaru. Neither can detect sniping or break webs, and Suigetsu doesn't say much since he can survive against people that outclass him like Tsunade and Mifune because of his body as well.

But even so, I think the answer would be clear. Jugo and Suigetsu would be in the Elite Jonin tier. Like Wave Kakashi. Below Kage, marginally above Jonin level (i.e. he was predicted to loses to 2 Sound 4,) and far above the 2 Chunin level he effortlessly blitzed. 

And FYI, Kimimaro easily beat down and controlled a berserking Jugo, who you seem to think is Elite Jonin level. And let's be real. A CS2 Jugo would beat Wave Kakashi (or lol-Kabuto) solidly. He's faster and can tank anything Kakashi has, and outlast him handily.​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Kabuto impact on the war -> Mild
> Kimimaro's impact on the war -> We would've won and saved your arms.



Um, wouldn't it be:

Kabuto -> Mild

Kabuto _and_ Kimimaro -> Orochimaru wins more comfortably.



Ersatz said:


> What is the author intent behind having her not think much of Kakashi yet shit the bed when Kimimaro shows up?



Would it not be the same intent he had when he made Kakashi engage Itachi but run from Orochimaru?



Ersatz said:


> Would a superstar tennis player with cancer go out and play a Grand Slam then die instantly before he wins the final set?



If he was a fucking magical ninja? Yes. Why not.

If it's _so_ obvious that Kimimaro was feeling it while fighting Lee, then you should be able to pull me a scan indicating that. There are fifty-seven such scans in Itachi vs. Sasuke, so you know what I mean.



Ersatz said:


> I mean Sasuke dodged v1 A.



Ah, the chief misconception among all misconceptions.

Sasuke dodged an elbow from v1 A. He did not dodge a v1 Shunshin. There is a _huge_ difference.



Ersatz said:


> I mean, his feat of blitzing Sauce is no different from the arrow blitzing Kakashi? It's so fast it forces the user to throw up a defense instead of dodging.



...do you realize that these ninja cannot try and block the arrow? The arrow was too fast for Kakashi to dodge. A ran behind Sasuke and went to chop him in two _before he could even turn his head._

Kakashi can block (not dodge) base A's flicker, but if base A was an arrow, Kakashi would be dead because he blocked a fucking arrow.



Ersatz said:


> Given how Naruto used that instead of KCM for Papa Raikage.



Sage Mode's enhanced perception helped Naruto time his Rasengan perfectly, much like Sasuke used his enhanced perception to time his Chidori perfectly.


----------



## IzayaOrihara (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I think the Sound Four are chūnin. If you want to call Kidōmaru jōnin tier, then tell me, which tier do Jūgo & Suigetsu occupy?
> 
> If you're going say that they've surpassed jōnin tier and breached the kage-level boundary, then let me know which kage they beat.



Suigetsu in that big water demon fish mode matched Hachibi. They were equal until Bijuudama came out. CS2 Jugo gave the Raikage a run for his money. But i would say Suigetsu and Jugo are slightly above Sound 4, on par with Sick Kimimaro and weaker than Healthy Kimimaro. But then again, _if they are so powerful, _*why were they not cosen to be Orochimaru's elite henchmen/bodyguards'.*



Strategoob said:


> Not sure why you think Jugo and Suigetsu are so much stronger than Kidomaru. Neither can detect sniping or break webs, and Suigetsu doesn't say much since he can survive against people that outclass him like Tsunade and Mifune because of his body as well.
> 
> But even so, I think the answer would be clear. Jugo and Suigetsu would be in the Elite Jonin tier. Like Wave Kakashi. Below Kage, marginally above Jonin level (i.e. he was predicted to loses to 2 Sound 4,) and far above the 2 Chunin level he effortlessly blitzed.
> 
> And FYI, Kimimaro easily beat down and controlled a berserking Jugo, who you seem to think is Elite Jonin level. And let's be real. A CS2 Jugo would beat Wave Kakashi (or lol-Kabuto) solidly. He's faster and can tank anything Kakashi has, and outlast him handily.​


Exactly.

CS2 Jugo reacted to Raikage, a feat Wave Arc Kakashi could never dream of. His Senjutsu chakra alone can amp Susanoo. CS2 Jugo could probably defeat Mei and maybe even Mifune. Yet Kimimaro in Base > CS2 Jugo. CS2 Kimimaro is even stronger than that.

Sick Kimimaro is Elite Jonin. At the end of the day, i know people will bash me for this, but i would put a Healthy Kimimaro on par with Raikage. Id say they are both Low Kage Tier. 
1) Kimimaro has (quoting Orochimaru/Kabuto) "the greatest Taijutsu ability", not the Raikage.
2) Kimimaro > Part 1 Kabuto (Kimimaro's contributions to the invasion would have been more valuable)
3) Kimimaro defeated CS2 Jugo (who would f*ck up any Elite Jonin tier shinobi i.e. Wave Arc Kakashi, Asuma, Base Gai, Base Raikage, maybe he could even defeat Mei). Base Kimimaro did this. In CS2 he is even stronger.
4) Kimimaro was suggested to be Kage-Level by Kabuto (who himself is on par with the strongest village's strongest Jonin, Kakashi Hatake)
5) Kimimaro is stronger than any Elite Jonin i.e. P1 Kakashi, P1 Kabuto and all the names i stated  above at number 3
6) He was Orochimaru's strongest underling (Orochimaru was practically a Kage himself (Otogakure) and you don't pick scrubs to be a Kage's bodyguard)
7) At first i thought low Kage Tier but I'm starting to think Kimimaro maybe even breaches the Mid Kage Tier, just slightly, as he can defeat any number of Low Tier Kages i.e. Kakashi (at the start of Part 2), Hidan, Konan, Raikage, Mei, 

The Sound 4 in Base are collectively as a team equal to an Elite Jonin. In CS2 they can reach higher than that.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 2, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> But even so, I think the answer would be clear. Jugo and Suigetsu would be in the Elite Jonin tier. Like Wave Kakashi.



I found the problem. I have no elite jōnin tier, mainly because elite jōnin isn't a real rank. You have everybody I consider jōnin tier in the "elite jōnin" tier, meaning you can then take everybody below and move them up a tier. 

I just see no reason to have an elite jōnin tier, because I don't have generic jōnin Joe Shmoe on my tier list. If you think Joe < Sound Four, then that's whatever. In comparison to every jōnin that would appear on a tier list, the Sound Four are chūnin.


----------



## Ersa (Nov 2, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Um, wouldn't it be:
> 
> Kabuto -> Mild
> 
> Kabuto _and_ Kimimaro -> Orochimaru wins more comfortably.


We saw what Kabuto's impact on the war was. He incapacitated some fodders, beat up some Jounin and ended up not fighting Kakashi because it would've been a draw and his techniques would get stolen.

Then he states that healthy Kimimaro would've won them the war, saved his master's arms and stopped all the suffering they endured after losing. On what grounds does that imply their impact was equal? 

While it is true Kabuto helped, the statement makes it clear as fuck Kimimaro's impact would've been much bigger.


> Would it not be the same intent he had when he made Kakashi engage Itachi but run from Orochimaru?


If Asuma and Kurenai were there with him against Orochimaru I think he would've been less scared.

Also Itachi Arc Kakashi is stronger too. Part II Kakashi is more confident against Itachi for example despite shitting his pants earlier.



> If he was a fucking magical ninja? Yes. Why not.


Illnesses especially terminal ones still hinder people as both Itachi and Kimimaro showed.



> If it's _so_ obvious that Kimimaro was feeling it while fighting Lee, then you should be able to pull me a scan indicating that. There are fifty-seven such scans in Itachi vs. Sasuke, so you know what I mean.


You realize a scene swap to people talking about the fight is just as good as a panel showing Kimimaro struggling right? Which is why Orochimaru's statement about his illness holds merit. And I already posted it.

If a fighter starts a fight half-dead (Tayuya's comment) then you would think physical performance is hindered.

Star tennis player with one day to live from cancer vs. Prime star tennis player, who performs better?



> Ah, the chief misconception among all misconceptions.
> 
> Sasuke dodged an elbow from v1 A. He did not dodge a v1 Shunshin. There is a _huge_ difference.


He dodged it without Shunshin.

I don't see why it matters, I can see him with Shunshin dodging v1 A Shunshin.



> ...do you realize that these ninja cannot try and block the arrow? The arrow was too fast for Kakashi to dodge. A ran behind Sasuke and went to chop him in two _before he could even turn his head._


I didn't say that.

I'm saying Susanoo arrow has a feat just as impressive as v2 A blitzing inexperienced Sauce.



> Sage Mode's enhanced perception helped Naruto time his Rasengan perfectly, much like Sasuke used his enhanced perception to time his Chidori perfectly.


Doesn't that just prove my point of sage sensing being better then malicious intent sensing?


----------



## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> Then he states that healthy Kimimaro would've won them the war, saved his master's arms and stopped all the suffering they endured after losing.



Wait.

What the fuck is Kabuto even talking about? Orochimaru only "lost" because he was jobbing and had no idea reaper death seal existed, not because he couldn't handle Hiruzen by himself.



Ersatz said:


> If Asuma and Kurenai were there with him against Orochimaru I think he would've been less scared.



Kakashi is scared of Orochimaru.

Add Kurenai & Asuma to Kakashi's team. Replace Orochimaru with the stronger Itachi and add Kisame.

Yeah, not buying it.



Ersatz said:


> You realize a scene swap to people talking about the fight is just as good as a panel showing Kimimaro struggling right?



I disagree. If Kimimaro was so much slower & weaker than normal, we'd get a specific example of that, just as we did with Itachi getting pegged by Sasuke's Shuriken trap. 



Ersatz said:


> I can see him with Shunshin dodging v1 A Shunshin.



Yeah no. Which Sasuke have you been reading about. Flicker speed:

Sasuke < Itachi ~ Gai ≤ Minato (speed-focused character gets benefit of doubt as best of tier 5's) ~ A < v1 A < v2 A.

Sasuke's not even dodging Itachi's flicker. Don't even mention v1 Raikage. V1 Raikage was cockblocking KCM Naruto's flickers repeatedly until Naruto got his plot flicker back.



Ersatz said:


> I'm saying Susanoo arrow has a feat just as impressive as v2 A blitzing inexperienced Sauce.



Going too fast for Kakashi to dodge is actually significantly worse than going faster than Sasuke can turn his head.



Ersatz said:


> Doesn't that just prove my point of sage sensing being better then malicious intent sensing?



Enhanced perception ≠ Sensing though.


----------



## Alex Payne (Nov 3, 2015)

Kabuto meant that Orochimaru with Kimimaro's body wouldn't be hit by Shiki Fujin. Because you know... bones and stuff...


----------



## Ersa (Nov 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Wait.
> 
> What the fuck is Kabuto even talking about? Orochimaru only "lost" because he was jobbing and had no idea reaper death seal existed, not because he couldn't handle Hiruzen by himself.


He says that if Kimimaro hadn't be ill they would've assassinated the Hokage smoothly and not be going through their current struggles.

Basically he was a game-changer, Kabuto wasn't. Add on Tayuya's reaction/Kabuto's other statement and you have Kimimaro >> Kabuto.



> Kakashi is scared of Orochimaru.
> 
> Add Kurenai & Asuma to Kakashi's team. Replace Orochimaru with the stronger Itachi and add Kisame.
> 
> Yeah, not buying it.


Kakashi was also scared of Itachi.

As I said Kakashi was stronger and outnumbering the opponent tends to give confidence especially since Kurenai/Asuma are probably among the stronger Konoha Jounin.



> I disagree. If Kimimaro was so much slower & weaker than normal, we'd get a specific example of that, just as we did with Itachi getting pegged by Sasuke's Shuriken trap.


We only know the pegging wasn't Sasuke's power because of Zetsu. If Zetsu's comment wasn't there then most of us would be like Hussain saying Hebi Sasuke is stronger then Itachi.

Orochimaru comments Kimimaro shouldn't be able to walk let alone move, Tayuya notices he's half-dead and running on willpower. Both statements are true as he later dies. What part of that doesn't imply Kimimaro is much stronger while healthy?

And if you're still not convinced, Kabuto's comment on Kimimaro's impact on the war *was if he was healthy*.

I don't even know why you need more evidence then that. Sick Kimimaro is indeed mid/high jounin level, healthy Kimimaro is way above P1 Kabuto and P1 Kakashi. Anything beyond that is speculation but I have provided panels to at least support my claims.

I see zero evidence that he's on their level. 


> Yeah no. Which Sasuke have you been reading about. Flicker speed:
> 
> Sasuke < Itachi ~ Gai ≤ Minato (speed-focused character gets benefit of doubt as best of tier 5's) ~ A < v1 A < v2 A.


So we have a chain of v1 A flicker > Sauce flicker > v1 A speed > Sauce speed.

You don't have to be as fast as Raikage to dodge him so my point stands. With Sharingan he should dodge v1 A.



> Going too fast for Kakashi to dodge is actually significantly worse than going faster than Sasuke can turn his head.


What implies Kakashi could turn his head? He only thought something like Too Fast before warping it away.


----------



## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I found the problem. I have no elite jōnin tier, mainly because elite jōnin isn't a real rank. You have everybody I consider jōnin tier in the "elite jōnin" tier, meaning you can then take everybody below and move them up a tier.
> 
> I just see no reason to have an elite jōnin tier, because I don't have generic jōnin Joe Shmoe on my tier list. If you think Joe < Sound Four, then that's whatever. In comparison to every jōnin that would appear on a tier list, the Sound Four are chūnin.



Yeah, but you're fucking everything up without the Elite jonin tier. You have famous Jonin superstars (Kakashi) as your schmoe Jonin, and schmoe Jonin as schmoe Chunin, schmoue Chunin as Genin, and Genin as trash.

Do me a favor and add motherfuckin' elite Jonin to your rank, because it's a thing. Hence why Base Gai is gonna' neg-fidd rape the fuck out of kid Kakashi (Sharingan or no) even though Kakashi's Jonin rank and level.

That makes the world make sense.

Kage levels: 2-3 individuals at most per village.
-
Elite Jonin levels: Up and coming superstars, say 15 individuals per village.
-
Jonin (Schmoe): A legit percentage of the 10,000 fodder army. (Say 5%.)
-
Chunin: The bulk of the 10,000 fodder army. (Say 65%)
-
Genin: A big chunk, but IMO smaller than Chunin. (Say 35%)

There's a goddamn reason fucking Naraka Path lost to Konohamaru but was steam-strolling though the village with 10,000 ninja before then. Because 95% of ninja are Demon Brother level fodder, 5% are Kid Kakashi level, and then you get your tippy top fraction of elite characters. That tippy top fraction is not the standard for the rank level, so rename your level ranks to reflect that.


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## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> He says that if Kimimaro hadn't be ill they would've assassinated the Hokage smoothly and not be going through their current struggles.



They would have "assassinated him smoothly" without Kabuto or Kimimaro. Orochimaru didn't need any help spanking Old Hiruzen, but he played too many games, creating an opening for the death seal.



Ersatz said:


> Kakashi was also scared of Itachi. As I said Kakashi was stronger and outnumbering the opponent tends to give confidence especially since Kurenai/Asuma are probably among the stronger Konoha Jounin.



Kakashi wasn't too scared to engage, shitting himself at the thought of even attempting to compete. Kakashi was only an arc stronger, and Kurenai & Asuma do not make up for the gap between Orochimaru and Itachi & Kisame combined. 



Ersatz said:


> What part of that doesn't imply Kimimaro is much stronger while healthy?



He's "stronger" because he isn't going to randomly die in the middle of a fight. That I obviously agree with. There is no implication that he was slow & weak during the actual fight, and later in the war, Kishimoto never went out of his way to show Kimimaro going super fast.



Ersatz said:


> You don't have to be as fast as Raikage to dodge him.



What. You have to be _faster._ 

The _sole _reason that A puts Minato's speed ahead of his own is because Minato dodged him.

The reason _everyone & their mother_ puts KCM Naruto's flash flicker ahead of A's v2 flicker is because Naruto dodged A. 



Ersatz said:


> What implies Kakashi could turn his head?



If you want to do this, then what implies that he couldn't? Don't hand out feats.

You should stop with the arrow. If growing a tree out of your arm works to block it, then that should tell you right there that it isn't as fast as someone who outruns the Sharingan.


----------



## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> That tippy top fraction is not the standard for the rank level



I don't know why you're assuming that it is in the first place. My tiers are based on the characters in them, not random cannon fodder. You just tried to ignore that with herpa' derp "main characters exceed their ranks."

Kishimoto decided to make _every fucking rookie_ a chūnin after the timeskip. The exceptions? Neji, who became a jōnin, Sasuke, who lost rank, and Naruto, who stayed a gennin until he became Hokage. What does that group have in common? They were all chūnin level _before_ the timeskip.

My standard for chūnin are the Part II rookies. Not fucking Iruka.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 3, 2015)

Exactly. the sound 4 are called Chunin fodder on these forums but any of them tear Iruka and Mizuki to shreds. Id say they are borderline Jonin and Kimimaro is borderline Kage.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

Rocky said:


> I don't know why you're assuming that it is in the first place. My tiers are based on the characters in them, not random cannon fodder. You just tried to ignore that with herpa' derp "main characters exceed their ranks."



What you don't seem to understand is that the Demon Brothers fairly assessed as Chunin by Kakashi. They aren't sub-Chunin. They're literally Chunin. Like p1 Shikamaru.

Kid Kakashi isn't sub-Jonin. He's literally Jonin. He passed whatever process and became Jonin. So people can be stronger than that and a lower rank, _but not stronger than that and a lower level_.

Anybody stronger than the Demon Brothers is at least "Chunin level" because the Demon Brother are Chunin. Anybody stronger than kid Kakashi is "Jonin level" because kid Kakashi's a Jonin.

It's not rocket science.​


Rocky said:


> Kishimoto decided to make _every fucking rookie_ a chūnin after the timeskip.



This _doesn't matter_. He left Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, and KN0 as Genin whereas Shikamaru became a Chunin. Shikamaru literally said he would surrender against them, because he had 0 chance.

What does that tell you, Rocky? Does it tell you herpa derpa they exceed Chunin level (Shikamaru was Chunin level) even though they're ranked Genin? Because it should. Because that's correct. 

Rank requires more than just fighting level. Or else p1 Shikamaru wouldn't be Chunin and Neji, Sasuke, Lee, and Gaara would be Genin. They could all neg-diff Chunin Shikamaru.​


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Nov 3, 2015)

> and they could all neg-diff Shikamaru, as well as weaker Chunin like Demon Brothers.



Shikamaru was continually shown to defeat "stronger" opponents through the use of intelligence and tactics.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

The Pirate on Wheels said:


> Shikamaru was continually shown to defeat "stronger" opponents through the use of intelligence and tactics.



Shikamaru lost to Temari and Tayuya. I wouldn't even really say Kin was stronger than him, as she was probably the weakest individual in the entire tournament, and he didn't exactly fodderize her.

Kin, by the way, is an example of a legitimate Genin bordering on Chunin. As were all the other contestants that died in the Forest of Death and whatnot. Most finalists were Chunin+ level geniuses.

Y'all gotta' remember that there are *10,000* ninja in Konoha. Narake Path was steamrolling through huge loads of fodder, many of whom were Genin, Chunin, and even Jonin in rank.

It's just that the 6,500 schmoe Chunin levels are Demon Brothers, the 3,000 schmoe Genin levels are _below Kin_, and the 500 schmoe Jonin levels are around kid Kakashi. 

Then you have the prodigies of prominent clans and the super-elites that the story focuses on. None of them truly reflect their level in rank, and the author never led us to believe they did. 

Hence him using the word "genius" every other page.​


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## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> He left Neji, Sasuke, Gaara, and KN0 as Genin whereas Shikamaru became a Chunin.



Case & point.

There is no definitive level characters had to reach in the story in order to become chūnin, or jōnin for that matter. It's inconsistent & based on non-combat-related factors, and it's flawed beyond belief to try and apply that ranking system to a _Battle_dome tier list. 

Doing it your way and starting the jōnin tier at the weakest known jōnin backloads the _fuck_ out of it. If base gaiden Kakashi is a jōnin, then Kidōmaru (who _violates_ base gaiden Kakashi) is an elite jōnin. Zabuza must be an elite elite jōnin then, and EoPI Kakashi is an elite elite elite jōnin.

That's just dumb.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

It doesn't backload it all that much, and it's more accurate. Yes, ranks are based on more than power, but there is a power requirement, it's just lower than you seem to think.

IMO kid Kakashi is a low Jonin, as he is a Jonin, and Kidomaru is a high Jonin. Wave Kakashi (and p1 Kabuto) is an Elite Jonin. The Sound 4 thought it would take _at most_ two of them to beat that.

And even if you think there's more gap there, it's no different than Chunin Lee with a "5" and "4.5" having the same rank as the Demon Brothers. He'd beat 1000 of them, no exaggeration.

The thing is, the manga focuses on the high end. Which is why we have Low, Mid, High, Demigod, etc. Kage ranks for the one rank of Kage. Jonin also requires Low, Mid, High, Elite, etc.

If you took Chunin Lee, and put him in a world war, he'd be known as an elite. Becuase he's better than 99.9% of the 50,000 ninja. He's an Elite Jonin level, even though he's a Chunin in rank.

This is why Kabuto raised Haku from the dead. In the high-end limelight of the manga, Haku's low tier. But he's a Jonin level, and would beat countless Chunin Demon Bros.

Same reason Naraka Path made so much leeway in Konoha by himself. He was plowing through the 99.9% average before coming into contact with the kid super-genius Genin progeny of Hiruzen.

p1 Kabuto is a nice example of the human-ness of Elite Jonin. He ain't blitzing CE Sasuke, kid Kakashi, etc. Naruto did fine against him. And Kabuto's outright inferior to SRA Neji, KN0, etc. 

After the second speed training (Wave, CE) there was no longer the speed gap between schmoe Jonin and the kids. Unless the Jonin were super-fast like Gai, Itachi, or a more in shape Kakashi.

If Elite Jonin p1 Kabuto wants to beat SRA Neji, he's going to have to work with it with skill, because he's outmatched in taijutsu ability and speed and perception.​


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

I also think this is a huge problem with the BD. There were two _huge_ speed boosts for Sasuke between fighting Zabuza and the end of the CE. Yet people think that he'd still be blitzed or outmatched by Zabuza, and that logic just goes _with all "Jonin."_ That's not the case. 

The instance of Jonin intercepting a contestant facing someone else is no different than Kakashi intercepting p2 Naruto and p2 Sasuke. It's just something that's doable when opponents are focused on another and doesn't denote the superiority people think it does.

Elite Jonin Kabuto is as fast as weighted Lee, and Wave Kakashi and Zabuza are only _marginally_ faster. CE Sasuke can keep pace, legitimately. It's skill, jutsu, etc. that would out-do him, not some huge difference in level that results in a blitz.

It brings down the qaulity of the BD hugely, because then interesting ninja like Kidomaru are trvialized on a speed burst on the basis of rank, even though he successfully evaded, hid, etc. from someone with a 4 in speed and 4.5 in taijutsu and the feats to back it.

Because KN0 is just fast as fuck, as he was even a blitz above CE Sasuke's weightless Lee speed, who was a blitz above weighted Lee, who was a blitz above Wave Sasuke, who was a blitz above pre-Wave Sasuke, etc. KN0 is much faster than Zabuza. 

3-tomoe Sasuke is much more Zabuza's peer than people think, as is CS2 Kidomaru, and countless other "rank" ninja people right off with the thoughtless script of rank difference based on inferences that happened two speed bumps ago or faulty interception feats.​


----------



## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> The thing is, the manga focuses on the high end. Which is why we have Low, Mid, High, etc. Kage ranks for the one rank of Kage. Jonin also requires Low, Mid, High, Elite, etc.​




*Spoiler*: _Rocky's easy, flexible tier list_ 



*GoaT* ~ Kaguya
--- ~ SO6P
*God* ~ Jesusruto, Rinnegan Sasuke
---
--- ~ Rinnegan Madara
---
*Top*  ~ Hashirama & War Obito
--- 
~ The mythical "prime" Nagato
---
*High* ~ Pain & Minato
--- ~ Sick Itachi 
*Mid* ~ Raikage & Tsunade
--- ~ Hebi Sasuke & Deidara
*Low* ~ Kakuzu & Mei
--- 
~ SRA Kakashi & Hidan
---
*Jōnin* ~ Asuma & Darui
---
--- ~ VotE I Naruto & Sasuke
---
*Chūnin* ~ Sound Four & Haku
--- ~ SRA Kiba & Shikamaru
*Genin* ~ Wave Naruto & Sasuke




I do it like that. The dashes in between indicate the ability-gap between tiers. If I think a character falls in between two tiers, I throw them in limbo. 


*Spoiler*: _Strat's never-ending tier list that grows increasingly suspect around "Mid Kage"_ 




*GoaT* ~ Healthy Itachi
*Elite God* ~ Kaguya
--- ~ Hagoromo
*High God* ~ God Madara
*Mid God* ~ Jesusruto & Rinnegan Sasuke
*Low God* ~ 8th Gate Gai & Plotkashi
*Elite Top* ~ Rinnegan Madara
*High Top* ~ Hashirama & Madara
*Mid Top*  ~ War Naruto 
*Low Top* ~ War Sasuke
--- ~ Edo Itachi
*Elite Kage* ~ Nagato, Minato
*High Kage* ~ Mū & Gengetsu
*Mid Kage* ~ Hebi Sasuke
*Low Kage* ~ Raikage & Healthy Kimimaro
*Elite Jōnin* ~ Wave Kakashi
*High Jōnin* ~ Kidōmaru
*Mid Jōnin* ~ Gaiden Kakashi w/ Sharingan
*Low Jōnin* ~ Gaiden Kakashi
*Chūnin* ~ Iruka
*Genin* ~ Bell-test Sakura




I literally ran out of steam.


----------



## Ghoztly (Nov 3, 2015)

Chunin exam Neji, Naruto, Sasuke or Gaara would shit on practically every Jounin that isn't Gai and Kakashi, considering each of them would struggle against the sound 5, epecially kimi, I would say together the 5 are easily Kage level.


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## Matty (Nov 3, 2015)

I cannot say sound 4 are all chunin. If anything Jirobo is the only chunin level, and he is elite chunin. the rest range from low-high jounin with Kimimaro scratching the bottom of low kage


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

Rocky, think my tier list names in your example are much better, because it more accurately reflects their levels. You should change yours to that to avoid "Chunin level" Jonin. Just silly. 

*God* ~ Kaguya
--- 
---~ Jesusruto, Rinnegan Sasuke
--- ~ Rinnegan Madara
---
*Demigod*  ~ Hashirama & War Obito
---
--- ~ "prime" Nagato
*High Kage* ~ Pain & Minato
--- ~ Sick Itachi 
*Mid Kage* ~ Raikage & Tsunade
--- ~ Hebi Sasuke & Deidara
*Low Kage* ~ Kakuzu & Mei
---
---~ SRA Kakashi & Hidan
---
*Elite Jōnin* ~ Wave Kakashi, Asuma
---
*High Jōnin* ~ KN1, CS2 Sasuke, SRA Gaara
--- ~ CS2 Kidomaru
*Mid Jōnin* ~ SRA Neji, CS2 Sakon, p1 Kabuto
---~Kakkō, Shizune, Weightless Lee
*Low Jōnin* ~ Kid Kakashi, Konohamaru, 
---~ Naraka Path, 2-tomoe Obito, Taiseki
---
*High Chunin* FoD Sasuke
---~ kid Obito (no Sharingan)
*Mid Chunin* ~ CE Kankuro, CE Temari
---~Shikamaru
*Low Chunin*~ Demon Brothers, Iruka
---~ Dosu, CE Hinata
*High Genin* ~ Yoroi & Misumi
---~ Shigure, Zaku
*Genin* ~ Wave Sakura, CE Ino
---
*Low Genin* ~ Bell Test Sakura

Although I feel like you got very lazy in the last half of your tier list and I may take some time to fill it all out. There are definite and various gaps between the rookie 12 throughout CE and SRA though.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 3, 2015)

matty1991 said:


> I cannot say sound 4 are all chunin. If anything Jirobo is the only chunin level, and he is elite chunin. the rest range from low-high jounin with Kimimaro scratching the bottom of low kage


This.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 3, 2015)

Tier List. I'll include those relevant to this thread then slot some others in to make comparisons. 


*Spoiler*: __ 




God Tier: Kaguya and all the random power upped Shinobi
Top Kage: Hashirama, Madara, BM Naruto, EMS Sasuke, Juubito, KCM Minato
High Kage: Healthy Part 1 Itachi (imagine he has Susanoo), Jiraiya, Part 1 Healthy Orochimaru, Prime Hiruzen, Base Minato, Nagato/Pain
Mid Kage: Tsunade, Part 2 Nerfed Orochimaru, Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Kisame, Sick Part 2 Itachi
Low Kage: CS2 Jugo, CS2 Kimimaro, Raikage, Mei, Drugged Jiraiya, Sannin Fight Orochimaru
High Jōnin: Base Kimimaro, Wave Arc Kakashi, Suigetsu, Base Jugo, Part 1 Kabuto, Rusty Tsunade
Mid Jōnin: Sound 4 in CS2, Base Gai
Low Jōnin: Haku, Sound 4 in base, Bloodlusted Shizune, SRA Neji
High Chūnin: Gōzu, Meizu
Low Chūnin: Iruka, Mizuki, 
Genin: Part 1 Konohamaru,


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## Rocky (Nov 3, 2015)

Strategoob said:


> Elite Jonin Kabuto is as fast as weighted Lee, and Wave Kakashi and Zabuza are only marginally faster. CE Sasuke can keep pace, legitimately. It's skill, jutsu, etc. that would out-do him, not some huge difference in level that results in a blitz.



Actually, I agree with all of this. I think Exams base Lee is faster than Old Hiruzen, for example.



Strategoob said:


> Rocky, think my tier list names in your example are much better, because it more accurately reflects their levels.​



I just canceled this post. You gotta give me a minute to look at that new list.


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## Sadgoob (Nov 3, 2015)

Eh, I think I'll make my own version of your format of tier list as far as the "---" are concerned. Those make it a little more fun. I'm short on time tonight though, so it will have to wait. 

Point still being, you should scale the names of your ranks to fit with the weakest people of those rank, because the weakest people in the rank had the power for the rank.

It's not like Kishi didn't give us enough "trash" level characters to sort them out down there appropriately, keeping in mind _all_ the Genin participating were recommended for Chunin trial.

Hence _all_ of them were more likely on the upper end of Genin, at the very least. With people like Misumi and Yorai being pretty solid examples of high Genin. Demon bros being low Chunin. 

Kid Kakashi w/o Sharingan being a low Jonin. And Old Hiruzen or rusty Tsunade being low Kage. These are the brackets that we should fit them into and what I'll be doing when I make my list.​


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 3, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> This.





IzayaOrihara said:


> Tier List. I'll include those relevant to this thread then slot some others in to make comparisons.
> 
> Mid Kage: Tsunade, Part 2 Nerfed Orochimaru, Deidara, Sasori, Kakuzu, Kisame, Sick Part 2 Itachi
> Low Kage: CS2 Jugo, CS2 Kimimaro, Raikage, Mei, Old Hiruzen, Drugged Jiraiya, Sannin Fight Orochimaru
> ...



More often than not Shinobi are much stronger than their rank suggests or vice versa. Gaara and Hashirama both held the title of Kage, yet look at the difference in the strength. In Part 1 Naruto was a Genin yet he defeated Kabuto, an Elite Jōnin. At the end of the day the Sound 5 were Orochimaru's bodyguards. Orochimaru WA practically a Kage (Otogakure). You don't get scrubs to guard a Kage otherwise what's the point when they can't even guard themselves. Kage bodyguards are Jōnin minimum so Sound 4 are Jōnin and Base Kimimaro is an Elite Jōnin. CS2 Kimimaro scratches low Kage like CS2 Jugo. Healthy Kimimaro sits comfortably in the Low Kage tier alongside Mei and Raikage.


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## UchihaX28 (Nov 3, 2015)

IzayaOrihara said:


> Exactly. the sound 4 are called Chunin fodder on these forums but any of them tear Iruka and Mizuki to shreds. Id say they are borderline Jonin and Kimimaro is borderline Kage.



 It's because people's perception of what is Chuunin is far higher than it actually is.

 By the end of the Chuunin Exams, each of the rookies aside from Hinata and Chouji are High Chuunin Level. Hell, the entire Chuunin Exams revolved around the ninja's capabilities being the highest it's ever been since 5 years. There clearly were skilled ninja within the Chuunin Exams and the Prelims contestants literally outranked them.

 @Strategoob

 I would actually place Yoroi above High Genin level. He was actually considered adept enough to have no problems at all based on Kabuto's analysis which included information from most ninja within the Exams. I would think he's within Chuunin Level to be honest. It's unfortunate he was placed under a circumstance where he lost to Weakened Sasuke because Kishimoto certainly wanted to portray him as a stronger ninja.


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## Ersa (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> They would have "assassinated him smoothly" without Kabuto or Kimimaro. Orochimaru didn't need any help spanking Old Hiruzen, but he played too many games, creating an opening for the death seal.


That's your interpretation.

I agree that Orochimaru was stronger but Hiruzen was strong enough to leave Orochimaru in a weakened state and all the subsequent suffering the Sound Village went through after. I'm not really interesting in debating semantics here.

Kabuto says Kimimaro while healthy would've had a huge impact on a multi-village war. There's no if or buts there.


> Kakashi wasn't too scared to engage, shitting himself at the thought of even attempting to compete. Kakashi was only an arc stronger, and Kurenai & Asuma do not make up for the gap between Orochimaru and Itachi & Kisame combined.


He charged up a Raikiri and told Orochimaru to back off.

He berated himself for thinking he could fight a Sannin after. He did not shit the bed like Tayuya did.

I'd argue Itachi Arc Kakashi is significantly above Chunin Exam Kakashi too. After fighting a war, training Sauce and doing more missions I think he's close to being back in shape. The gap between Itachi Arc Kakashi and Wave Arc Kakashi is huge, Chunin Exam Kakashi falls somewhere in between.



> He's "stronger" because he isn't going to randomly die in the middle of a fight. That I obviously agree with. There is no implication that he was slow & weak during the actual fight, and later in the war, Kishimoto never went out of his way to show Kimimaro going super fast.


I don't get it.

I'm sorry I really don't. You have a statement asking why he can move? How is that not a reason to believe he was hindered? Dying bodies =/= Healthy bodies.

Like, why reason do I have to believe Kimimaro is 100% but may die randomly? There's zero evidence and statements to suggest the contrary (Tayuya/Orochimaru/Kabuto).

I've provided evidence that he was hindered. Your evidence is literally he looked fine so I'm ignoring statements by other characters who took care of him. I'm sorry but I trust the word of a medic-nin more then I trust a subjective view of the fight 

Edo Kimimaro dodged FRS? Unless you want me to believe Kimimaro tanks that which is stupid since he would've been sealed by sealing army fodder.



> What. You have to be _faster._
> 
> The _sole _reason that A puts Minato's speed ahead of his own is because Minato dodged him.


How did Sauce dodge v1 A despite being slower? 

How did Deidara dodge Sauce Shunshin despite being slower.

You don't need to be faster to dodge.



> You should stop with the arrow. If growing a tree out of your arm works to block it, then that should tell you right there that it isn't as fast as someone who outruns the Sharingan.


What says growing a tree can't stop Ei clubbing you in the face?

Far as I can see, they both have similar feats.

Being too fast for a 4.5 speed Sharingan wielder to dodge and forced to use a nigh-instant defense (Enton, Kamui).


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> You don't need to be faster to dodge.





Just jump Minato. You don't need Hiraishin. 



Ersatz said:


> What says growing a tree can't stop Ei clubbing you in the face?





Grow a tree Minato. You'll be fine. 



Ersatz said:


> Being too fast for a 4.5 speed Sharingan wielder to dodge and forced to use a nigh-instant defense (Enton, Kamui).



The arrow was too fast for Kakashi to dodge. 

A was too fast for Sasuke to see.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 4, 2015)

Minato has Hiraishin @Rocky and can't grow trees so what are you basing that off? Deidara is slower than Sasuke but dodged him and what you say doesn't change what Danzō did. You don't have to be faster than someone to dodge their attacks. Sasuke dodged V1 A. 

And @Ersatz every word you said was correct.


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## Ersa (Nov 4, 2015)

Rocky said:


> Just jump Minato. You don't need Hiraishin.


It's not like slower opponents have dodged faster ones. [1][2][3]



> Grow a tree Minato. You'll be fine.


I mean, there's no way we know for sure 

Those trees are pretty strong.

I mean if healthy people die randomly in the middle of a fight why can't Senju trees stop Raikage punches? 



> The arrow was too fast for Kakashi to dodge.
> 
> A was too fast for Sasuke to see.


If it came from behind maybe Kakashi would've died.

It's hard to gauge.

v2 A is faster then the arrow definitely but to such an extent that he could blitz someone who dodged the arrow? Doubtful.

Everyone on Kabuto's tier can easily handle Raikage's speed. I'm inclined to give Kabuto the benefit of the doubt since he dodged something insanely fast.


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Ersatz said:


> It's not like slower opponents have dodged faster ones. [1][2][3]



None of those show somebody dodging the v2 flicker with a slower flicker.

If you take a closer look, you'll notice that nobody could dodge A's flicker except for the people that were faster than him. [1][2][3][4][5]



Ersatz said:


> I mean, there's no way we know for sure



Raikage kills Kabuto with Kamehameha. 



Ersatz said:


> If it came from behind maybe Kakashi would've died.



Raikage was in front of Sasuke.



Ersatz said:


> I'm inclined to give Kabuto the benefit of the doubt since he dodged something insanely fast.



Let me know when Kabuto gets Hiraishin. When he does, you might be onto something.


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## Ersa (Nov 4, 2015)

This isn't going anywhere.

Let's just agree to disagree, lol.


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

Sure. Let me know if you need contact info. 

I'll be waiting for that call.


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## IzayaOrihara (Nov 4, 2015)

How did we even get to discussing Raikage's speed?


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## Matty (Nov 4, 2015)

We aren't we are just confirming the sound 5 to be a low kage entity


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## Rocky (Nov 4, 2015)

They're not kage level. If you replaced Mei with Itachi, the five kage would have _still_ lost to Perfect Susano'o. The gap between the jōnin & kage tiers is no less wide than that of the kage & top tiers. 

Even if I gave the Sound Four Strat-level respect, it's still one of the best jōnin & four middle-of-the-pack jōnin going against a kage. That's no different than one of the best kage (Itachi) & four mid kages going up against a top tier.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

I would have to say they definitely are a kage level unit. Probably the top of low kage


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2016)

Only two were implied to be capable enough to handle Kakashi and Kimimaro is a solid Elite Jonin, especially if he was Healthy. Arguably, Healthy Kimimaro alone would qualify as being a Low Kage Ninja.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

2 Exhausted Special Jonin (not even Jonin), pushed the Sound 4 to extremely high diff to win. And SRA-Gaara handled everything Kimi could dish out sans Swarabi no Mai; and yes Kimi was sick and all, but it's a fucking Part I rookie for fucks sake. Any Kage decimates the S5, low diff.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

I don't see Chiyo, Hidan, Mifune or Darui beating them


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 5, 2016)

Zabuza was also an Early P1 Ninja, but that never stopped him from being hyped up a few times during P2.


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> I don't see Chiyo, Hidan, Mifune or Darui beating them


Hidan and Darui aren't Kage-level. Mifune maybe you can make an argument for, but he'd one-shot blitz all of the S4 w/ his IAI, and only Kimi would give him problems, but given his feat of cutting through Hanzo's metal scythe w/o even adding chakra to his blade and the fact that Fodder Samurai cut through a good bit of kimi's bone, Kimi probably gets fodderfucked as well by IAI.

Chiyo you can also make an argument for, but 10 puppets rapes the S5, and most of the argument you can make for Chiyo would be her as a total package, as in including her potential in support capabilities, not just combat.


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## Matty (Mar 5, 2016)

Darui is anot actual kage, how is he not kage level? He's low kage but he's still kage level. He's on Chiyo level


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## Turrin (Mar 5, 2016)

matty1991 said:


> Darui is anot actual kage, how is he not kage level? He's low kage but he's still kage level. He's on Chiyo level


The better question is how is he Kage-level. Could he protect a hidden village or defeat any of the Kages on their home turf; the answer is no.

Darui is on Chiyo's level combat wise, maybe. However as an overall Shinobi, Chiyo wrecks Darui. Chiyo has Fuuinjutsu powerful enough to seal a Bijuu creating a Jinchuuriki. Has high order medical Ninjutsu and is an expert in brewing poisons/antidotes, a vast wealth of exp/knowledge, and oh yeah she has a Jutsu that can breath life back into the dead or even inanimate objects like puppets; a power that literally only the Rinnegan can replicate.

And i'm not necessarily willing to say Chiyo is Kage level, as an old way past her prime bag ether, it's more likely that it would be Prime-Chiyo whose Kage-level.


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## Saru (Mar 6, 2016)

Kimimaro is about as low as you can go to classify someone as "Kage-level," and even then, I wouldn't consider him any more "Kage-level" than Darui, Hidan, Yamato, or Suigetsu, none of which should be considered to have power rivaling a Kage in any context. I pretty much agree with with Turrin about Chiyo and Mifune. Mifune was actually portrayed to be Kage-level at the Kage Summit, and he was praised by Hanzo. Chiyo is a Puppet Master and poison expert, was renowned during the Second Shinobi World War, fought Hanzo and survived, and has Reanimation Kinjutsu. When was Kimimaro ever hyped again?​


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## Icegaze (Mar 6, 2016)

Darui to begin with shouldn't be considered kage level 

The sound 5 as a unit . Are not kage level they are high jounin . Like Kimi is 

The gap between Kimi and them is so significant that they won't be adding anything to a fight 

Eg: sound 5 against Mei only Kimi survives the first few exchanges . The others should simply perish


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## The Third Raikage (Mar 6, 2016)

Are we forgetting that in 1v1 The Sound Five got wrecked by a group of Genin? Individually they're high Genin/low Chunin level. Together they were probably high Chunin level/low Jonin level. I think that they'd get wrecked by everyone on the list.


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