# The Official Contradictions/Plot Holes/Retcons Thread



## Kisame (Mar 9, 2018)

List feats/hype or anything battledome-related that happened in the manga that you believe is a contradiction/plot hole/retcon.


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2018)

Part 2 Hashirama.

Sakura's Chakra levels during the Ten Tails Revival arc. She said she was almost out when she was trying to heal Naruto and then suddenly she's got more Chakra than Naruto's clone and enough to fuel Obito's attempts to link Kaguya's dimensions together. Like what?

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Mar 9, 2018)

Part 2 Kisame

Reactions: Funny 7 | Winner 3


----------



## oiety (Mar 9, 2018)

Hashirama hyping up Sakura's strength when he presumably died before Tsunade was even an adult.

Of course, its just a stand in for Kishimoto saying Sakura surpassed Tsunade in strength, but it is a plot-hole nonetheless.

Also with Sakura, her getting stabbed by Madara's Gudodama and not disintegrating. Unless you want to take Byakugo's "cannot die in battle" literally, that's probably an error.

Inconsistent sizing of...well, seemingly both the Bijuu and the summonings, as well, for pretty much anything shown more than once, i.e Gamabunta/Gamakichi, Manda/Aoda, and Katsuyu, at least from my recollection. 

I'm guessing we're supposed to take it for a fact that Hashirama easily subdued Kakuzu and let him go, as well, otherwise it makes little sense that someone who survived against a Shinobi no Kami would fall to Kakashi, Team Asuma, and Wind Arc Nardo. To me, anyway.

How did Danzo defeat Shisui in the first place, as well?

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2018)

oiety said:


> Also with Sakura, her getting stabbed by Madara's Gudodama and not disintegrating. Unless you want to take Byakugo's "cannot die in battle" literally, that's probably an error.



Is it supposed to cause the rest of the body to disintegrate?


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 9, 2018)

Obito & Kakashi only being 14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack


----------



## oiety (Mar 9, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> Is it supposed to cause the rest of the body to disintegrate?



Hiruzen  to think so, or at least something close to it.

And then here, the Kage  to think that at the very least it stops Edo Tensei regeneration, and as we know, Sakura  up that hole in her abdomen  later through Byakugo.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Kisame (Mar 9, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Obito & Kakashi only being 14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack


How so? Kakashi was 27 when Naruto was 12 in the beginning of part I, so subtract 12 years and Kakashi would be 15 (or 14 I guess?).


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2018)

Probably Minato's standing.

It was suggested that Naruto and Sasuke surpassed him during the Invasion of Pain arc (Fukasaku said it, and Killer Bee said Sasuke was the toughest person he ever fought).

Though I've seen people say Fukasaku was referring specifically to their mastery over Sage Mode and it's possible that Bee was referring to people he'd fought by himself or something. I don't think so, though.



oiety said:


> Hiruzen  to think so, or at least something close to it.



Jinton only disintegrates the part that it hits, though.



> And then here, the Kage  to think that at the very least it stops Edo Tensei regeneration, and as we know, Sakura patches up that hole in her abdomen no more than a few panels later through Byakugo.



Not sure how I didn't remember that.

Could it have been a Black Receiver, though? I mean even if it was that's quite something considering Sakura could move when even ET were rendered immobile by those.


----------



## oiety (Mar 9, 2018)

Is it ever mentioned exactly how Minato defeated A and B multiple times, as well? Gyuki is inhumanly durable on its own, much less when used by a Perfect Jinchuriki, and A canonically has the whole "surviving getting teleported at light speed like his inhumanly durable father" thing, along with barely getting pierced by Chidori.

Minato doesn't even think his SM skills are any good, so it couldn't be that, and of course he had no Kyubi then, and it's not like the toads could reliably catch A, and there's no way he could outlast either of them...is there some fuinjutsu hype I'm missing, or is this just not adding up all the way?

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## narut0ninjafan (Mar 9, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Obito & Kakashi only being 14 at the time of the Kyuubi attack



Timelines in general are messed up in Naruto

Like Orochimaru supposedly leaving Akatsuki 7 years before part 1 which would mean Itachi was at most 11 when he joined Akatsuki, even though he was supposedly made an ANBU captain at 13 

Or Tsunade retiring from being a ninja after Dan's death, yet supposedly creating the Yin seal and Sozo Saisei during retirement

Or all the Konoha jonins being in the same chunin exams in Obito's flashback, even though they all became chunins at different ages

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 9, 2018)

Shark said:


> How so? Kakashi was 27 when Naruto was 12 in the beginning of part I, so subtract 12 years and Kakashi would be 15 (or 14 I guess?).


Obito grew like a foot taller and went from being fodder to being stronger than all of the Kage minus Minato in a matter of months. There's a few other inconsistencies too 

There's also the retcon of when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki. The original number we were given would make Itachi 11 at the time he negged Orochimaru

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 9, 2018)

Jiraiya's SM. Jiraiya did not display invisible frog punches, or SM sensing when fighting against pein. Though after his fight with him the DB4 stated that he could use both

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Kisame (Mar 9, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> Obito grew like a foot taller and went from being fodder to being stronger than all of the Kage minus Minato in a matter of months. There's a few other inconsistencies too


His power could be explained by him using his hax MS and being able to spam it due to Hashirama's cells, but he shouldn't be experienced enough even then to be such a threat (he was a subpar shinobi at best).

But yeah his height doesn't make sense.


> There's also the retcon of when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki. The original number we were given would make Itachi 11 at the time he negged Orochimaru


Is that the one where Orochimaru said in part II that he left the Akatsuki "10 years ago" or am I misremembering?


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 9, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Jiraiya's SM. Jiraiya did not display invisible frog punches, or SM sensing when fighting against pein. Though after his fight with him the DB4 stated that he could use both





FlamingRain said:


> I've been saying it before the 4th databook came out so I'm just going to reiterate that this _isn't_ necessarily a retcon.
> 
> Frog Kata's and sensing are inherent within the very Sage Mode transformation itself just as Jutsu empowerment, enhanced strength, durability, etc. are activated by it; once the mode is turned on it should all be turned on.
> 
> ...

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 9, 2018)

That was amazing

Reactions: Friendly 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 9, 2018)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Timelines in general are messed up in Naruto
> 
> Like Orochimaru supposedly leaving Akatsuki 7 years before part 1 which would mean Itachi was at most 11 when he joined Akatsuki, even though he was supposedly made an ANBU captain at 13
> 
> ...


Yeah, Kishi fucked the timeline up super hard. 

That flashback where Kakashi looks the same as he does in the Gaiden, but he's supposed to be only six years old

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 9, 2018)

oiety said:


> Hashirama hyping up Sakura's strength when he presumably died before Tsunade was even an adult.
> 
> Of course, its just a stand in for Kishimoto saying Sakura surpassed Tsunade in strength, but it is a plot-hole nonetheless.
> 
> ...




According to Kishi he was rushed for the immortals arc. Kakuzu and Hidan were supposed to be much, much stronger than what was shown in Canon. So his hype comes from a time when Kishi intended to make Kakuzu and Hidan absolute beasts.

Reactions: Informative 2


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 9, 2018)



Reactions: Agree 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 9, 2018)

oiety said:


> Is it ever mentioned exactly how Minato defeated A and B multiple times, as well? Gyuki is inhumanly durable on its own, much less when used by a Perfect Jinchuriki, and A canonically has the whole "surviving getting teleported at light speed like his inhumanly durable father" thing, along with barely getting pierced by Chidori.
> 
> Minato doesn't even think his SM skills are any good, so it couldn't be that, and of course he had no Kyubi then, and it's not like the toads could reliably catch A, and there's no way he could outlast either of them...is there some fuinjutsu hype I'm missing, or is this just not adding up all the way?




Minato never defeated them

Young Ay+Bee=Minato.

They tied tons of times, both acknowledging that they have fought a bunch of times and never could kill each other.

Adult A or Bee would shit on Minato though

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Disagree 1


----------



## oiety (Mar 9, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> According to Kishi he was rushed for the immortals arc. Kakuzu and Hidan were supposed to be much, much stronger than what was shown in Canon. So his hype comes from a time when Kishi intended to make Kakuzu and Hidan absolute beasts.



Big if true. I would have liked to see that, though I wonder where it would have gone. A Hidan that isn't...well, Hidan, and a Kakuzu that could actually stand up to Hashirama would have been a sight. The Zonbi Conbi always did have a cool theme.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Santoryu (Mar 9, 2018)

oiety said:


> Big if true. I would have liked to see that, though I wonder where it would have gone. A Hidan that isn't...well, Hidan, and a Kakuzu that could actually stand up to Hashirama would have been a sight. The Zonbi Conbi always did have a cool theme.



Or maybe the author didn't envision he'd be making Hashirama so strong later down the line. Kakuzu did even worse in the war arc.


----------



## oiety (Mar 9, 2018)

Santoryu said:


> Or maybe the author didn't envision he'd be making Hashirama so strong later down the line. Kakuzu did even worse in the war arc.



Equally likely, I guess. Ah well.


----------



## NamesClassified (Mar 9, 2018)

Sorry if these might not seem battledome related.

Plot Holes.
-Orochimaru knowing the location of the Shingami mask, but doesn't use it to release his arms from the Reaper Death Seal and instead tries to get Tsunade to heal his arms. He could have easily got Kabuto or the Sound Four to infiltrate Konoha, but nope.

-Obito not being able to use Kamui while the Ten Tails Jinchuriki, but asspull master Madara can. That shit was stupid.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Coolest Guy! 1


----------



## Ultrafragor (Mar 9, 2018)

Ao can remember Shisui's chakra color, but Hinata doesn't notice Kakashi and Obito share the same chakra colors even when they both were next to her at the same time. 

The Kumo head ninja that kidnapped Hinata from part 1 was wearing a Suna outfit in the flashbacks. 

Itachi can cast genjutsu by pointing his finger, but must use his biggest trump card just because Kabuto closed his eyes while fighting. Their whole battle really should have been Itachi and Sasuke both using genjutsu on Kabuto at the same time while Kabuto uses Senjutsu enhanced genjutsu to compete with their Sharingan. 

Sakura and Tsunade can kill with one hit, but never do. 

Kishi has no idea what kind of Rinnegan he wants to give Sasuke. 

Kishi was gonna give Boruto and Himawari Byakugan, but forgot. 

Hinata is given Hamura's chakra, but nothing results of it. Like kishi realized right after that, if someone with Hamura's chakra and someone with Hagoromo's chakra had a child, that child would essentially be another Hagoromo/Hamura and would immediately break whatever story was written about them. 

Sakura's yin seal has more chakra than a 50% SPSM clone of Naruto. 

Kaguya and everything related to her. 

Juubi can destroy continents, but ribcage Susano'o and 1-tail V1 cloak is good enough to safely tank that kind of power.

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 10, 2018)

Shark said:


> List feats/hype or anything battledome-related that happened in the manga that you believe is a contradiction/plot hole/retcon.


Why didn't Obito take off his mask when Itachi and Nagato stood in front  of him ? I think that he knew that they wouldn't join him. Other possibility could be fact that Dojutsu can see through transformation Jutsu.


----------



## Knyght (Mar 10, 2018)

narut0ninjafan said:


> Like Orochimaru supposedly leaving Akatsuki 7 years before part 1 which would mean Itachi was at most 11 when he joined Akatsuki, even though he was supposedly made an ANBU captain at 13





Jackalinthebox said:


> There's also the retcon of when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki. The original number we were given would make Itachi 11 at the time he negged Orochimaru





Shark said:


> Is that the one where Orochimaru said in part II that he left the Akatsuki "10 years ago" or am I misremembering?



In Part 1:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Somehow making an 11 year old Itachi a member of Akatsuki before becoming an Anbu Captain (at 13) and, y'know, leaving Konoha.



In Part 2:

*Spoiler*: __ 





Same as above.



Fourth Databook:

Around 7 Years Ago: Confrontation with Orochimaru, targeting the Sharingan…!!

Turning the tables on Orochimaru’s attack aiming for the Sharingan. Orochimaru withdrew from Akatsuki for that chance.​
Now meaning that Itachi was about 14 years old when Orochimaru left Akatsuki.


----------



## hbcaptain (Mar 10, 2018)

KCM Naruto easily  with his cloak here and  with a sword thereafter.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 10, 2018)

Welp, there are tons of them. On top of my head, and in no order.

1- All time-line in the story. Nothing adds up.
2- Hashirama's character. almost in its entirety.
3- Tobirama's hype with water style in part 2. As everyone can do what he did (even better actually) in part 2.
4- Tobirama having FTG.
5- Asspulldara's backstory that was told by itachi got retconned to something else.
6- Asspulldara being able to use Izanagi without having Senju's cell at the time.
7- Asspulldara getting his eye back after it should have been blind by the use of Izanagi
8- Asspulldara absorbing Hashirama's SM when Hashi was not even using it.
9- Asspulldara being able to use Preta path when he did not have any eyes.
10- Asspulldara using Susanoo without having eyes.
11- Asspulldara getting Zetsu's arm, put it on his body, and it magically connected and working just as a regular hand!!
12- Asspulldara being able to use Kamui after he became Juubi's host when JJ Obito couldn't.
13- Asspulldara knowing the seals to stay after ET being canceled when no one else knew about them!
14- The whole ET Asspulldara is stronger than he was when he was alive, but no, RT is stronger, but he was stronger alive...etc
15- Asspulldara coming back as an ET in his prime when everyone else came back the way they were when they died.
16- Asspulldara "somehow" given Nagato his Rinnegan without anyone noticing.
17- Asspulldara "somehow" controlled those Mist-Ninja when he was in his cave and unable to move.
18- Asspulldara & Obito being to easily control the Juubi and seal it when Hagorumo and Hamura couldn't somehow!
19- Asspulldara getting Limbo out of nowhere when it was convenient for him.
20- Asspulldara being able to seal the Bijuus in the GM, when it requires 3 days for each one of them to be sealed.
21- Black Zetsu and White Zetsu were originally created by Asspulldara and Hashirama's cells. It got retconned to be Kaguya's will and the people she trapped before.
22- Obito's story about how Hagorumo fought the Juubi and sealed it, just for us to know that Hamura was there as well.
23- Haguromo and Hamura sealed the Juubi with the same seal Naruto and Sasuke used against Kaguya, but somehow, the Juubi ended up being sealed inside of Haguromo? When it should have turned into the GM and allegedly got sealed in the moon
24- Apparently, there was no moon before Hagurmo sealed the Juubi.
25- Hamura and his descendants were supposed to watch over the GM in the moon. Asspulldara summoned it for god knows how long, and no one took notice. It's only 2 years after the war did Toneri noticed the GM was missing!


26- ET can let the characters use any and all jutsu they had. Even the logically impossible ones like summoning when they shouldn't have blood in them, but somehow Limbo, alone, is unable to be used?
27- Koto, conveniently, being the only Genjutsu that can break ET control so it can free itachi.
28- if itachi was ordered to "protect Konoha", and Sasuke declared that he will destroy it, then why did itachi not attack him?
29- Izanami
30- Rinnegan being the stage the comes after EMS
31- Obito coming back from the dead with lolKamui
32- Kakashi getting that and being able to use PS
33- Tobirama & Hiruzen surviving after JJ Obito attacked them with Gedu-Dama.
34- Sasuke surviving Deidara's C0
35- Naruto's FRS & TBB-FRS not countering Indra's Arrow and redirecting it towards Sasuke.
36- Hinata, when her Byakugan was activated, somehow did not see Obito's face behind the mask?
37- Obito's Izanagi lasing 5-10 minutes to survive Konan's jutsu when Danzo's last for 1 minute?!
38- Naruto surviving Kurama being pulled out of him after being resealed.
39- Kushina, I guess before the retcon?, somehow not being able to survive even if she were to reseal Kurama inside of her.
40- Minato not teleporting Kurama's TBB to Obito (after he marked him) and fuck his ass up and be done with this whole nonsense.
41- Minato & Kushina's death was could have been EASILY avoided, but just for plot convenient, I guess.
42- Since there was no action taken against this possibility, Obito could have easily come at any time to get Naruto(Kurama).
43- Everyone's chakra during the war arc makes no sense. 
44- itachi's "sickness" came out of nowhere as well.
45- MS having different jutsu, it should have all been the same.
46- Susanoo was supposedly "rare", but now everyone with a MS has. It supposedly required Amaterasu & Tsukuyomi.
47- SF being an Uzumaki sealing jutsu.
48- I feel like most the Bijuus are not as strong as they were portryaed to be. Also, they were supposedly just made of chakra and mindless beats, but this is not the case I guess?
49- In part 1, if the host dies, the Bijuu dies. In part 2, the Bijuu comes back after awhile.
50- Obito being able to control Yagura with Genjutsu makes no sense.


ok, that's enough as is. 
There are more, but I don't feel like writing any more....

Reactions: Like 3 | Winner 3 | Creative 1


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> Jiraiya's SM. Jiraiya did not display invisible frog punches, or SM sensing when fighting against pein. Though after his fight with him the DB4 stated that he could use both


Thats not a plot hole tho

As for one thing...The DB isnt even the manga and has nothing to do with the plot

Thats just the DB making assumptions with little to no standing for it in canon material

Reactions: Dislike 1


----------



## BlackHeartedImp (Mar 10, 2018)

-Obito coming back from the dead. I was never more confused than when he pulled THAT shit and gave Kakashi a huge asspull power up.

-Madara using Kamui as a JJ but Obito, the originator of the technique, wasn't able to?

-Black Zetsu's entire existence.

-So6p created the moon yet somehow Kaguya used it for IT before he was born?

- Sakura's character progression (or rather, REGRESSION). 
Love this series, but you could probably make a lengthy spin-off just pointing out all the inconsistencies and nonsense situations.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Godaime Tsunade (Mar 10, 2018)

Part 1 Tsunade finding the Shosen no Jutsu too chakra taxing to perform on herself, despite the fact that she can use Sozou Saisei which is the pinnacle of chakra control which even Shizune can’t learn.

Chakra levels throughout the entire War Arc.

Kakashi somehow going from struggling to use Kamui during the Pein Arc to mastering its usage less than a month later during the War.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

No Rinnegan User ever using the Rinnegan after Nagato...Had Obito or Madara or Sasuke actually used the goddamn thing when fighting theyd be nigh untouchable. Madara and Sasuke in particular have no excuse but PIS as they were the natural owners of their respective eyes on top of that.* Preta path alone* makes Narutos life hell and he faced all 3 of them, and all 3 conveniently forgot about the rinnegans ability to absorb chakra that naruto throws around like a brat with his trust fund. Not to mention the biju leash chains from the outer path...
People thinking Hiruzen in his Prime means anything because IRUKA OF ALL PEOPLE SAID SO...Iruka, who just by the way, never met Hashirama OR Tobirama as they DIED BEFORE IRUKA WAS BORN, yet Iruka puts young hiruzen, another entity he NEVER LAID EYES ON, above Hashi and Tobi...And then does the same with the current generation of Kage, 4 people he has also NEVER MET...Yeah must be true...Prime Hiruzen solos...Fear the word of Iruka
Does Kishi genuinely think anyone with 2 brain cells to rub together is gonna buy the nonsense that is "Kakuzu faced Hashi and lived" 
The entire next generation all being able to use fucking Kage Bunshin...Even nameless fodder can make 2 each...Meanwhile that was narutos sole claim to fame in part 1 and he was constantly hyped for being capable of doing it as it was a Jonin tier ability...And the only reason he was able to btw was because he had the strongest entity in naruto fiction (at the time) powering him, and was from a clan that granted him ridiculous stamina...Yet rando genin can do it by borutos era  Cheapening literally all of Part 1 Naruto which is by far the best aspect of the franchise
Oro not using the Shinigami Release Mask to get his arms back 
Boruto having 3 fucking nature transformations at age 12...When it was stated by Kakashi, a guy who really knows what hes talking about when it comes to ninja ability and is a ridiculous level prodigy/genius btw, he states that learning a single elemental affinity is extremely difficult if not IMPOSSIBLE for GRADUATED GENIN to learn to due chakra cost alone as stated when he fought Sasuke during the bell test...On top of that, the sheer amount of training required is insane for even a single element, Kakashi further states that to get past *just LEAF CUTTING is supposed to take months and being able to apply an element in combat is supposed to take several years*...But naw man...Boruto, a kid who is stated to NEVER train and has NO GUIDANCE, gets 3 goddamn elements mastered ON TOP OF Kage Bunshin...Sure why not...Power creep is a helluva drug
Narutos reserves in the War...Almost as much of a meme as "Tired Goku" in DB super...The Kid Gives away 3x the chakra of an average shinobi at absolute minimum, to something like 30,000 individual shinobi...And he is in no way negatively impacted by this? Doesnt even have to power down his Kyuubi mode by a single stage or take a knee for a few seconds? And can fight at JJ levels while doing so? Sure
Madara using Kamui as a JJ when Obito couldnt...I GUESS its arguable that due to Madara having a more complete JJ state he could control it better? Meh...Its a stretch either way
Sasuke flexing for Kirin with no prep...Tho at the time we had no idea it was gonna require prep...Still weird either way
Why does naruto immediately know how to use his Yang seal and stop the effects of the goddamn 8th agte and regrow eyeballs and fly and flawlessly sense Limbo, when Sasuke is stated to need time and training to properly use his rinnegan and Yin seal?
Minato not using SM during the Kyuubi attack...Pretty sure it woulda been worth it to bust it out here champ
Kakashi becoming a CoD aimbot god tier spammer with Kamui during the war arc yet he sucked with it during the Pain arc like 3 days prior to the war...Also never going blind...Also never being affected by its stamina drain when 2 uses of it was enough to land him in the hospital previously..Keeping in mind btw...That with all the "improvement" he made from the Kazekage arc to the War arc...A SINGLE USE OF IT against Sasuke in the FKS was enough to notably debilitate him...Yet a week later....Bam...Kamui Machine Gun
Kakashis DMS not immediately killing him due to strain...Also the Rikudo chakra not driving him insane when Obito couldnt handle the watered down rikudo chakra that was a single rinngegan while being a mokuton amped Uchiha
Narutos jesus powers saving Gai from the 8th gate and regrowing kakashis eyeball
Sasuke NOT using his Naraka path to restore his and narutos damaged limbs post war...I imagine Rikudo CT woulda come in handy in later years dude...Prolly shoulda thought about that before you started looking around for hashi splooge to make a limb out of...
Kurama being flipped on his entire lifes philosophy of hating humans which he had built up over decades if not centuries of abuse, *all dispelled by a 2 minute conversation with naruto *because if it wasnt resolved at that exact instant...Naruto was dead...Plot gonna plot
Naruto magically wanting to befriend Kurama when he hated him up until the FKS arc at bare minimum, and upon learning that Kurama directly murdered his father...Gives no fucks and doesnt even ask for a apology

Reactions: Like 2


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> nothing to do with the plot


That's thing, I keep hearing this bit I never see an actual confirmation or interview where Kishi said it doesn't count 

Seems like your opinion to me.




WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats just the DB making assumptions with little to no standing for it in canon material


How can the databook make an assumption? Its a fucking guidebook used to inform people of the manga 

I find it hilarious how people won't use the databook because of inconsistencies(which is hilarious because there hasn't been a time that the databook gave a random person an ability, rather just not stating that said person can use a specific ability), ignore that the manga has the same if not more inconsistencies

Reactions: Like 3


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> How can the databook make an assumption?


Are you serious?

Thats all it does 99% of the time 

Jutsu ranks? Like Raikiri = S rank to Chidoris A rank when they are the same technique one is just a nickname yet that gives it an entire grade higher difficulty to learn apparently

Stats? Neji is more skilled in ninjutsu than naruto when he learns FRS? When neji hasnt shown any great aptituude for ninjutsu whatsoever? Meanwhile naruto just mastered shape manipulation combined with nature? Cool

Character and jutsu descriptions? Light speed haku and hebi sasuke? Hebi sasuke>all of akatsuki?

Literally all their interpretation and assumption

At best its hyperbole, at worst its hot garbage that straight up disagrees with the manga 


Serene Grace said:


> That's thing, I keep hearing this bit I never see an actual confirmation or interview where Kishi said it doesn't count


Read the manga then

Plenty of reasons for it not to count there


Serene Grace said:


> I find it hilarious how people won't use the databook because of inconsistencies


I find it hilarious when people take secondary fan fiction over whats blatantly shown on panel

As you yourself just said, they are called GUIDEbooks

Not RULEbooks

Dont treat them like the latter...Also apply a little contextual understanding when looking at them and have a few grains of salt to take with what you read...

I dont mind when people reference the DBs...Really dont, but holding them to some kind of gospel or gold standard of information when they directly contradict whats shown is silly


Serene Grace said:


> which is hilarious because there hasn't been a time that the databook gave a random person an ability, rather just not stating that said person can use a specific ability


They do the opposite all the time tho

And the stats are similar to giving someone abilities they dont have when they are placed above people they have no right being above

Like naruto in part 1 being faster than Hiruzen

Or saying Indra or Sasuke cant use PS

Right...


Serene Grace said:


> Seems like your opinion to me.


And its just your opinion that secondary canon takes precedence over the manga that its attempting (badly a lot of the time) to interpret


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

What's to disagree with @Hussain 
What's funny @Isaiah13000 

Ay with decades more experience>Ay when he was...22 (?)
Bee with decades more experience>Bee when he was maybe....16? I know Bee is a fair bit younger than Ay, I just can't recall their exact ages.

Regardless, from their last battle/s they had roughly 16-20 years to train while Minato was 6 feet underground.

Reactions: Winner 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Are you serious?
> 
> Thats all it does 99% of the time
> 
> ...



As i've been saying the DB is not canon.

But oh no I get flamed 

Never mind that @Serene Grace ignores his precious Databook when it states Daikodan can do exactly what it's stated to do in the manga 

Trash arguments and hypocrisy.


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Never mind that @Serene Grace ignores his precious Databook when it states Daikodan can do exactly what it's stated to do in the manga


I actually believe Daikodan can do exactly what it does, in fact, I was one of the people advocating for it in the Kisame vs Kakuzu thread

Also, why do you have that Jiraiya Avi on 

And that sig?


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I actually believe Daikodan can do exactly what it does


I dont think theres a single poster who doesnt think Daikodan can't absorb chakra

The thing thats lost on Team Kisame tho...Is that its not eating everything it meets

Thats a NLF to suggest

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont think theres a single poster who doesnt think Daikodan can't absorb chakra
> 
> The thing thats lost on Team Kisame tho...Is that its not eating everything it meets
> 
> That's a NLF to suggest


I'm just ignoring Troy's statement as its likely just another baseless accusation he made out of nowhere like usual

what I'm more concerned with is the sig and avi he's rockin


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> what I'm more concerned with is the sig and avi he's rockin


Yeah thats odd

Been like that for awhile 2


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I actually believe Daikodan can do exactly what it does, in fact, I was one of the people advocating for it in the Kisame vs Kakuzu thread



Problem is it was portrayed specifically as an Anti-Ninjutsu tech.

Iirc you've stated you can't see it absorbing Bijuudama's or FRS's

That directly contradicts what's stated in the manga AND databook



WorldsStrongest said:


> I dont think theres a single poster who doesnt think Daikodan can't absorb chakra
> 
> The thing thats lost on Team Kisame tho...Is that its not eating everything it meets
> 
> Thats a NLF to suggest



People think it can absorb chakra yes

But people also think that pure chakra techs of a high level some how are immune to Daikodan's powers (Bijuudama, FRS+ etc). It's based on literally nothing when every source it says it can absorb the opponents techniques.

People like to point me out as a "Kisame wanker" but i've never stated anything unsupported by the manga. On the other hand, the only difference between unmastered SM and mastered SM being frog features is not supported by anything but the fanfic Databook, but still championed by the NBD.

But sure

Lets take the Databook that says Madara is the sole user of PS after Kakashi and Sasuke both used it
Lets take the Databook that says Temari can destroy the planet with a single jutsu

It's 100% reliable guys, trust me.


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I'm just ignoring Troy's statement as its likely just another baseless accusation he made out of nowhere like usual
> 
> what I'm more concerned with is the sig and avi he's rockin



Because i've accepted the stance that Jiraiya has Hashirama level SM.

Ignoring all of the manga of course, Jiraiya clearly has Hashirama level SM.

Edit: He can probably use Mokuton too, since he was Hiruzen's student who knew Hashirama who probably taught him it or some shit.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Hi no Ishi (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Why does naruto immediately know how to use his Yang seal and stop the effects of the goddamn 8th agte and regrow eyeballs and fly and flawlessly sense Limbo, when Sasuke is stated to need time and training to properly use his rinnegan and Yin seal?


 Because Naruto has RSM? IIRC it gives you universal understanding.

The Rinnegan gives you the ability to master anything but that does not mean you start with everything.


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 10, 2018)

A clash between Daikodan & Yata Mirror would destroy the entire Nardo universe. Even Kishi wouldn't be able to survive the crossfire

Reactions: Funny 3


----------



## Trojan (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> People thinking Hiruzen in his Prime means anything because IRUKA OF ALL PEOPLE SAID SO...Iruka, who just by the way, never met Hashirama OR Tobirama as they DIED BEFORE IRUKA WAS BORN, yet Iruka puts young hiruzen, another entity he NEVER LAID EYES ON, above Hashi and Tobi...And then does the same with the current generation of Kage, 4 people he has also NEVER MET...Yeah must be true...Prime Hiruzen solos...Fear the word of Iruka


1- Iruka never said, "in my opinion, the 3rd is the strongest".
2- For what it's worth. The statement was 100% correct, and Kishi proved it, back then, by having Hiruzen defeating both
Hashirama and Tobirama at the same time. However, after all, the retcons and the importance of characters have shifted, it became wrong I suppose. 
3- you don't really need to be on a specific timeline to know about X character who lived during that time anyway.



Troyse22 said:


> What's to disagree with @Hussain
> What's funny @Isaiah13000
> 
> Ay with decades more experience>Ay when he was...22 (?)
> ...



The age thing is often an excuse that people like to delude themselves into believing. Unless it's actually stated/shown that X, Y, and Z got strongest, faster, got more chakra...etc. Nothing changed. Especially with A & B whom their fighting style is based on Taijutsu. There is just so much you can do with that. 

It's the same like with those people who were trying desperately to fool themselves and everyone else that Obito's Kamui is faster (than FTG) and better as he age. Just for Kishi to smash them with his dick to their faces and show otherwise during the war arc.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Hussain said:


> 1- Iruka never said, "in my opinion, the 3rd is the strongest".


He doesnt need to

Theres still such a thing called source credibility to consider when discussing word of mouth on ANYTHING 

Irukas statement isnt magically exempt from the laws of credibility 

From his life experiences, ha has no idea what the fuck he is talking about in regards to the subject he opened his mouth regarding 

Therefore, not a credible source 


Hussain said:


> 2- For what it's worth. The statement was 100% correct


No

No it wasnt


Hussain said:


> 3- you don't really need to be on a specific timeline to know about X character who lived during that time anyway.


"You dont need to know what youre talking about to talk about it and be credible"

Good to know hussain 

Glad we had this chat


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> But people also think that pure chakra techs of a high level some how are immune to Daikodan's powers


Exactly

Thats called extrapolating a limit

Doing the best we can for a technique based on its showings

Of which btw, there are 0

Meaning the technique is ALL guesswork

But it NEEDS limits


Troyse22 said:


> It's based on literally nothing when every source it says it can absorb the opponents techniques.


But there needs to be a ceiling

Period 


Any argument that says "Daikodan stops at X" is more credible than "Daikodan cant stop wont stop"

Its a logical fallacy to imply the latter

Everything in this manga, or any other work of fiction, unless specified to be literally omnipotent, has a limit

EVERYTHING

No exceptions

You dont see Rinnegan/Uchiha fans (such as myself) arguing that Sasuke is immune to all forms of ninjutsu because lol preta path do you?

Because even tho its shown no upper limit, its acknowledged by me and other rinnegan fans, there NEEDS to be one...Because logic and credibility demand it.

Even with the Rinnegans RIDICULOUS literally God like hype, there are limits to what it is accepted to do


Troyse22 said:


> People like to point me out as a "Kisame wanker" but i've never stated anything unsupported by the manga


Not even gunna


Troyse22 said:


> On the other hand, the only difference between unmastered SM and mastered SM being frog features is not supported by anything but the fanfic Databook, but still championed by the NBD.


"Championed" is a strong word

Just because Grace and his band of merry Jman men wanna transfer feats the man doesnt deserve to him doesnt make it accurate NOR does it form a consensus

Hell, a few weeks ago myself, @Blu-ray and @Kai were all arguing against Graces notion that theres little to no discrepancy between SM users...And i doubt we were the only ones


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Exactly
> 
> Thats called extrapolating a limit
> 
> ...




And that limit is far, FAR too low in the NBD

So low it doesn't even make sense.

I can see the argument "It can't absorb juubidama's or Indra's arrow"

That's tolerable, and I would accept that

But I can't accept "It can't absorb Bijuudama or FRS"

Because that's not in line with Kisame's portrayal, he's portrayed as extremely anti-Jinchuuriki/Bijuu, to assume he can't deal with their PURE CHAKRA BLAST (which is what Daikodan absorbs) is insane. His tech and fighting style is all tailor made to defeat Jinchuuriki's/Bijuu's, there's no reason to believe Daikodan is an exception to his Bijuu defeating style.

Bijuudama and FRS aren't even portrayed significantly above Daikodan TBH (Kisame's final one shot, a Bijuu's final one shot, Naruto's final one shot well into the war)

Naruto, or Bijuu's at this time are not portrayed significantly above Kisame, if at all, so why can't Kisame defeat their techs with a tech that's stated to counter theirs?

That's stupidity.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Grace and his band of merry Jman men



LOL



WorldsStrongest said:


> wanna transfer feats the man doesnt deserve to him doesnt make it accurate NOR does it form a consensus



Fair enough I guess, but there was enough likes/agrees to suggest people agree with him.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> And that limit is far, FAR too low in the NBD
> 
> So low it doesn't even make sense.


Depends on who you talk to

But regardless, there needs to be a limit thats within reason

And surplus is less credible than a deficit

Thats just how it is


Troyse22 said:


> I can see the argument "It can't absorb juubidama's or Indra's arrow"


Yet ive seen you argue the exact opposite

Multiple times


Troyse22 said:


> But I can't accept "It can't absorb Bijuudama


Why?

TBBs are well above any technique Kisame has ever seen or dealt with

TBB>>>Hirudora by a WIDE ass margin and Daikodan couldnt step to hirudora in terms of pound for pound damage...

Hirudora+ techniques being above Daikodans paygrade is hardly unfair to claim with this in mind

Further...

Samehada, Kisames GO TO for chakra absorption, is shown to have issues eating just a biju cloak, let alone the ridiculously dense and powerful TBBs fired by full on kaiju

Daikodan having roughly equal absorption capabilities to Samehada is a fair assumption, if anything Samehada is portrayed as even more capable, given Kisame never resorted to Daiokdan to counter Bees V1 or V2 states and instead used Samehada, despite facing the greatest amount of chakra he had ever encountered

That paints Samehada in a better light than Daikodan when it comes to chakra absorption logically speaking

But regardless, even assuming Daikodanis somewhat superior, on what basis would the gap be so much wider that Kisames go to means of chakra absorption becomes FAR outclassed?


Troyse22 said:


> Because that's not in line with Kisame's portrayal, he's portrayed as extremely anti-Jinchuuriki/Bijuu


Hes literally never stated to be such

Hes portrayed as being fairly skilled when it comes to taking *opponents in general* alive

Hes never implied to be some ninjutsu sponge or wall

And the phrase "anti Jin" or "anti biju" is never mentioned in the same breath as Kisame in canon

Not once


Troyse22 said:


> Bijuudama and FRS aren't even portrayed significantly above Daikodan TBH


FRS?

I more or less agree

TBB?

Absolutely not

It shits on daikodan in pretty much everything

TBB>>>Hirudora which is daikodans blatant superior


Troyse22 said:


> Naruto, or Bijuu's at this time are not portrayed significantly above Kisame, if at all


The bijus posed a threat to Rinnegan Sage Mode RT Madara...And they were also portrayed as more than a match for BM Bee, KCM naruto, Kakashi, and Gai all working in conjunction...

So youre wrong here bud

V2 Bee is also portrayed as a serious problem for Kisame

Naruto in a weaker state is portrayed above several biju at once...Thats BM biju...Not V2 levels...He also far outperformed BM bee, who is stronger than the V2 Bee who pressured Kisame, and saved his ass

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Gin Ichimaru's Shadow (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> What's to disagree with @Hussain
> What's funny @Isaiah13000
> 
> Ay with decades more experience>Ay when he was...22 (?)
> ...


Ay is even stupid than he was before.

Reactions: Funny 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> TBBs are well above any technique Kisame has ever seen or dealt with
> 
> TBB>>>Hirudora by a WIDE ass margin



This is based on literally nothing.

Hirudora was shown at least pressuring Madara



WorldsStrongest said:


> Daikodan couldnt step to hirudora in terms of pound for pound damage...



It was a counter Jutsu

Just like Daikodan counters Bijuudamas, Hirudoras counter Daikodans



WorldsStrongest said:


> Samehada, Kisames GO TO for chakra absorption, is shown to have issues eating just a biju cloak, let alone the ridiculously dense and powerful TBBs fired by full on kaiju



Samehada is not absorbing a Bijuudama period



WorldsStrongest said:


> Daikodan having roughly equal absorption capabilities to Samehada is a fair assumption,



No, it's not.

It was shown to be Kisame's "ultimate" jutsu. His most powerful tech.

Samehada is something he always employs in every battle.

That doesn't make it not powerful, it just shows that Daikodan is portrayed above Samehada at least in absorption capabilities
Kisame was confident it would've absorbed Hirudora had it been chakra



WorldsStrongest said:


> Kisame never resorted to Daiokdan to counter Bees V1 or V2 states and instead used Samehada, despite facing the greatest amount of chakra he had ever encountered



Because his goal was to capture Bee not kill him.

It would've absorbed his cloak and killed him, or nearly killed him.

Regardless, the risk was not worth it to Kisame



WorldsStrongest said:


> Hes never implied to be some ninjutsu sponge or wall
> 
> And the phrase "anti Jin" or "anti biju" is never mentioned in the same breath as Kisame in canon
> 
> Not once



The guy who can rip cloaks (which at the time were a VERY rare sight) of chakra off of opponents, who can Waterdome to counter V2, who has a tech that's stated to absorb chakra projectiles, and a tech that can be argued to be capable of devouring Bijuu's (1000 feeding sharks) is anti-bijuu

It doesn't have to be explicitly stated when his on panel showings support that line of thinking.



WorldsStrongest said:


> TBB?
> 
> Absolutely not
> 
> ...



Guess that's why Hirudora pushed Mads
And Bijuudama's wouldn't do shit



WorldsStrongest said:


> The bijus posed a threat to Rinnegan Sage Mode RT Madara



Collectively, against a Blind Madara yes.

The moment he got his Rinnegan he raped them, he legit one shot every single one of them with Limbo

The Bijuu's are not portrayed=Rinnegan SM Mads

Get real



WorldsStrongest said:


> V2 Bee is also portrayed as a serious problem for Kisame




mmmmmmm no.

V2 Bee was only a problem for Kisame without using Ninjutsu

Quite a difference given the power and effectiveness of his Ninjutsu

Bee had to resort to his second highest form to force Kisame to even start using Ninjutsu



WorldsStrongest said:


> Naruto in a weaker state is portrayed above several biju at once...Thats BM biju...Not V2 levels...He also far outperformed BM bee, who is stronger than the V2 Bee who pressured Kisame, and saved his ass



I'm talking about KCM Naruto.

Although I get that that was not specified, my bad.

Also not sure what even 8 V2 Jins would do about Waterdome tbh

He can sense in his Kisamehada form, even if they all split up all he has to do is hunt each one down one by one before they escape

Waterdome is village level, no way are jins clearing that distance in 8 different directions, at best 1 or 2 escape, but then are hunted down again.

Kisame is faster than them Underwater and in this form, they don't have a prayer.

V2 is also stated to be Bijuu power trapped in humanoid form, meaning more power per inch. a V2 Lariat would hit WAY harder than a tentacle for example, as it's all of the Bijuu's power in Bee's comparatively small body, and he also uses a exoskeleton PLUS Bijuu power to use V2 Lariat.

Kisame is portrayed above Bee, BM or V2.


----------



## Isaiah13000 (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> What's to disagree with @Hussain
> What's funny @Isaiah13000
> 
> Ay with decades more experience>Ay when he was...22 (?)
> ...


Irrelevant, Minato is still clearly portrayed as beyond both A and B's level no matter what. Anyone who has read the manga can see that very easily.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 10, 2018)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No
> 
> No it wasnt


Yes, it was. As Hiruzen's CLONES destroyed both of them (Hashirama & Tobirama)



WorldsStrongest said:


> "You dont need to know what youre talking about to talk about it and be credible"
> 
> Good to know hussain
> 
> Glad we had this chat


You are so naive. 

There is such thing, perhaps you never heard of them, called books/documentary...etc.
Have you lived in Einstein, Newton...etc time? No, then how do you know about them and the laws and shit they came up with? 
likewise, Konoha has library and shit with books about "the founders". It's not like Hashirama, Tobirama...etc were regular people for you to assume that no one knows shit about them.

Not to mention, from part 1, konoha's entire existence is only 60 years.  Which is a short period of time for a village. And we had people who actually lived during their time that, at the time, still alive. Like Hiruzen, Danzo, the Sannin, the 2 elders...etc. So, it's not like getting information about the HOKAGES was something impossible or anything.


----------



## WorldsStrongest (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> This is based on literally nothing


Its based on the fact Hirudora fucked Daikodan actually 

With no resistance

Whiel underwater

And its based on the sheer difference shown in ability between Hirudora and even the smallest TBB


Troyse22 said:


> It was a counter Jutsu


It was immune to its chakra absorbing aspect

Im talking pound for pound damage and force...Where Hirudora>>>Daikodan regardless

And TBB>>>Hirudora regardless

TBB>>>Hirudora>>>Daikodan by showings 


Troyse22 said:


> Samehada is not absorbing a Bijuudama period


Precisely my point

And it has better feats than any other absorption method from Kisame 


Troyse22 said:


> No, it's not.
> 
> It was shown to be Kisame's "ultimate" jutsu


No it wasnt



He never refers to it as his ace in the hole technique or ultimate attack

Thats headcanon 

He also only ever resorted to it when he didnt have the option to use samehada  


Troyse22 said:


> Because his goal was to capture Bee not kill him.
> 
> It would've absorbed his cloak and killed him, or nearly killed him.
> 
> Regardless, the risk was not worth it to Kisame


It wasnt worth it because he had Samehada, which is better suited to draining chakra than Daikodan

Or else he would have used Daikodan and merely held it back like Gai later does with Hirudora 


Troyse22 said:


> The guy who can rip cloaks (which at the time were a VERY rare sight) of chakra off of opponents


Doesnt make him anti biju

Again, thats your interpretation of his ability not what hes actually portrayed as among characters in the verse 

He absorbs chakra...Thats his style...That doesnt make him the end all be all kryptonite for tailed beasts


Troyse22 said:


> who can Waterdome to counter V2


This isnt specific to V2

Waterdome is just a useful suiton

Juuken counters chakra built substances...Doesnt make every hyugga anti biju


Troyse22 said:


> who has a tech that's stated to absorb chakra projectiles


So?

Again this is hardly limited to biju...Biju hes never fought or seen before btw


Troyse22 said:


> and a tech that can be argued to be capable of devouring Bijuu's (1000 feeding sharks)


Stop it

This technique is in no way capable of doing fuck all to a Biju

Unless youd like to argue that Asakujaku, which bitched this technique, can OHKO a biju as well

Get real


Troyse22 said:


> It doesn't have to be explicitly stated


It sure does when youre trying to use it as evidence for your stance...

Youre arguing that kisame sportrayal puts him above biju...When thats never shown to be the case as hes never fought one...

There needs to be a standard of evidence and burden of proof falls to you to demonstrate it

Him absorbing chakra ambiguously isnt indicative of him absorbing all types of chakra...

Im sorry but it just isnt 


Troyse22 said:


> Guess that's why Hirudora pushed Mads


It did nothing to him actually  


Troyse22 said:


> The Bijuu's are not portrayed=Rinnegan SM Mads


Never said they were

Said they were a threat to him that he had to take seriously 

Still suffices to put them well outside freaking Kisames league


Troyse22 said:


> mmmmmmm no.


Uhhhhhhmmmm yes

He tagged Kisame once through samehadas protection and still almost ripped him in half

He was also shown to be too fast for Kisame to reliably deal with 

And shown to be physically stronger than Kisame was


Troyse22 said:


> Also not sure what even 8 V2 Jins would do about Waterdome tbh


They blitz teh fuck out of him before he makes the handsign

Or they all go BM like they did against KCM and Bee and lolfuck it and kisame


Troyse22 said:


> Waterdome is village level


No its not

Been through this


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame is faster than them Underwater


Hes also weaker than BM is water or no water


Troyse22 said:


> V2 is also stated to be Bijuu power trapped in humanoid form


Its portrayed as weaker by showings

FAR weaker


----------



## Kisame (Mar 10, 2018)

Regarding the comparison between Samehada and Daikodan and their differences:

Samehada doesn't get stronger by absorbing the jutsu, Daikodan does. They're incomparable because they're absorption doesn't serve the same purpose; Samehada's is to weaken the opponent by stealing their chakra whereas Daikoudan's is to strengthen itself.

Samehada does not 100% achieve it's goal (*absorbing the enemy's stamina/chakra*) which is completely suck the opponent's chakra from the _first absorption_, something we knew even before the fight with Killer Bee as it cannot drain someone's stamina flat to zero in one instance, it was always a *process* not an _event_. Unlike Daikodan which 100% achieves it's goal (absorbing the enemy's jutsu) in it's *initial* clash.

Daikodan has the property of _performing better _against stronger techniques as opposed to Samehada who will _perform worse_ against more chakra (more time and clashes to absorb).

Let's say Daikodan is up against a B-rank elemental jutsu, it absorbs it and becomes stronger.
Samehada is up against 6 tails worth of Hachibi chakra, it absorbs all of it.

Now, Daikodan goes up against a stronger technique, what happens? Kisame says "the bigger/stronger the better" which means this is an _advantage _for Daikodan and it becomes _even stronger in this case._
Samehada goes up against V2 Hachibi chakra, it performs _worse _because now it's taking the same amount and will take longer to achieve it's goal.

Another important point that people always miscalculate is that you can overpower Daikodan, that is only part-truth. How the jutsu works completely negates the firepower of the technique, the enemy's jutsu has to have a way around the absorption first in order to be able to test it's firepower against Daikodan's. That's why jutsu that aren't straight-forward in their properties (for example Deidara's explosion) will counter the absorption and then damage the giant shark head on.

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Jackalinthebox (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> People like to point me out as a "Kisame wanker" but i've never stated anything unsupported by the manga.





Troyse22 said:


> Kisame with his full arsenal would shit all over Base Sasuke.
> 
> Lets not get carried away with this Naruto and Sasuke wank please
> 
> Full power Sasuke is an absolute monster (Adult Sasuke>Adult Naruto Imo) but just Base without Ninjutsu? He's literally a stronger version of A4, so high kage at best.


Couldn't resist


----------



## FlamingRain (Mar 10, 2018)

oiety said:


> Is it ever mentioned exactly how Minato defeated A and B multiple times, as well? Gyuki is inhumanly durable on its own, much less when used by a Perfect Jinchuriki, and A canonically has the whole "surviving getting teleported at light speed like his inhumanly durable father" thing, along with barely getting pierced by Chidori.
> 
> Minato doesn't even think his SM skills are any good, so it couldn't be that, and of course he had no Kyubi then, and it's not like the toads could reliably catch A, and there's no way he could outlast either of them...is there some fuinjutsu hype I'm missing, or is this just not adding up all the way?



No, but it wasn't said that they were actually defeated- simply that they battled multiple times. I figure it was basically them playing tag until one side received an order to retreat, for reasons you mentioned. Hiraishin is that good.

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 2


----------



## Serene Grace (Mar 10, 2018)

FlamingRain said:


> No, but it wasn't said that they were actually defeated, simply that they battled multiple times. I figure it was basically them playing tag until one side received an order to retreat, for reasons you mentioned.


I agree with this.

I dont know why some people think it somehow implies Minato> A and B simultaneously, when the most information we received was that they battled many timss

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I dont know why some people think it somehow implies Minato> A and B simultaneously, when the most information we received was that they battled many timss



First time i've liked one of your posts in a bit, well said.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Friendly 1


----------



## SakuraLover16 (Mar 10, 2018)

Biggest plot whole why do ninja wear bright colors?

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1 | Useful 1 | Creative 1


----------



## Trojan (Mar 10, 2018)

Serene Grace said:


> I agree with this.
> 
> I dont know why some people think it somehow implies Minato> A and B simultaneously, when the most information we received was that they battled many timss



It's rather simple.
you wouldn't call someone "second to none/can't be surpassed"
by "lol playing tag". Such utterly ridiculous conclusion. 

Edit:
Might as well Naruto calls Academy Bolt unsurpassable because they were playing tag, and Naruto couldn't catch him. 


Just because it happened one that Minato was in a middle of a mission and there was sign for him to retreat, that does not mean
EVERY SINGLE TIME that the exact same thing will happen.

> A attacks
> Minato dodges
> retreat sign

I am not even sure how it's possible to reach such a conclusion. 

That's like saying
hebi Sasuke was going to attack Naruto & co
Oro stopped him

therefore, every single fight they have ever had never got completed. Because every single time the fight will be copy and paste
and there will be someone who will come to stop the fight. 



And we know that Minato created Rasengan from observing the TBB

Guess which character he fought that had a Bijuu and can use TBB?

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1 | Funny 2


----------



## Shazam (Mar 10, 2018)

Shark said:


> List feats/hype or anything battledome-related that happened in the manga that you believe is a contradiction/plot hole/retcon.




Sasori beating 3rd Kazekage
Hanzo's hype vs feats
Hyuga Clan hype difference from part 1 to part 2


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Mar 10, 2018)

onoki light-weighting raikage in spite of his cloak

Reactions: Lewd 1


----------



## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2018)

walpurgis Burgoo said:


> onoki light-weighting raikage in spite of his cloak



Like Susanoo it's reasonable to assume one can enter the shroud with the users mental permission.
Not a plot hole by any means, Onoki and Ay simply make an absolutely beastly team.



Hussain said:


> It's rather simple.
> you wouldn't call someone "second to none/can't be surpassed"
> by "lol playing tag". Such utterly ridiculous conclusion.



He's referencing his speed, hush.

And even then Minato only outsped Ay ON PANEL ONLY DUE TO HIRAISHIN.



Hussain said:


> Just because it happened one that Minato was in a middle of a mission and there was sign for him to retreat, that does not mean
> EVERY SINGLE TIME that the exact same thing will happen.
> 
> > A attacks
> ...



Because if Minato was above the A/B Combo, he would've killed them.

He was stalemated on panel by Killer Bee alone.

A young, less experienced Bee than Shippuden Bee.



Hussain said:


> That's like saying
> hebi Sasuke was going to attack Naruto & co
> Oro stopped him
> 
> ...



No, it's nothing like that.

Ay, Bee and Minato fought on multiple occasions

Sasuke didn't

Reactions: Disagree 1


----------



## wooly Eullerex (Mar 10, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Like Susanoo it's reasonable to assume one can enter the shroud with the users mental permission.
> Not a plot hole by any means, Onoki and Ay simply make an absolutely beastly team.


no, i mean, onoki is using a _do'ton_ but raikage is using a _rai'ton._

the electrocution thing is obviously ignored for plot convenience

but then the nature release conflict is ignored for the same reason, so its a forgiveable contradiction.

not a plot hle, obviously

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Crow (Mar 11, 2018)

Madara being able to use Kamui when he was a jinchuuriki but Obito couldnt

Reactions: Like 1


----------



## Karyu Endan (Mar 11, 2018)

Jackalinthebox said:


> There's also the retcon of when Orochimaru left the Akatsuki. The original number we were given would make Itachi 11 at the time he negged Orochimaru



That isn't actually a retcon. It's a contradiction that's consistently _remained_ a contradiction. In part 1 Akatsuki says Orochimaru left 7 years prior and in part 2 they say he left 10 years prior. But it's always been implied that Itachi joined Akatsuki right after the massacre, Orochimaru tried to take Itachi's body not long after, and then defected right after that. That should put Orochimaru defecting from Akatsuki at _5_ years prior at the absolute earliest (Itachi is at least 13 before defecting and 17/18 in Part 1). But Kishi just being bad at math doesn't solve the contradiction, since it doesn't give Orochimaru enough time for two body hops, as he tells Hiruzen he did during their fight. Assuming that Orochimaru didn't start body hopping until defecting from Akatsuki, he'd need to have left _6_ years prior, not 5. Though I suppose you could make it work if you're willing to round up or play generous with the amount of time you have in the years at play. For example (using the year of Naruto's birth and the Kurama attack as Year 0 for convenience):

Start of Year 8: Uchiha Massacre, Itachi leaves Konoha. Orochimaru leaves Akatsuki and body hops 1st time.
End of Year 10/Start of year 11: Orochimaru body hops second time.
Middle of Year 13: Naruto's Chunin Exams (Hiruzen specifically says that it starts in July and the finals are a month later, leaving the invasion to occur during August). Hiruzen dies and takes Orochimaru's arms with him to the Shinigami. Itachi returns to Konoha and hospitalizes Sasuke. Naruto and Jiraiya leave to find Tsunade.
End of Year 13: Tsunade becomes Fifth Hokage, heals Sasuke. Sasuke defects from Konoha. Orochimaru body hops third time.
Start of Year 14: Naruto leaves Konoha with Jiraiya for training trip. Akatsuki reminisce about Orochimaru.

This is the only way I've come up with to give Orochimaru time to body hop twice after the Uchiha Massacre. By making the Uchiha Massacre occur early during the year and the end of Part 1 late in the year, you can give Orochimaru six years for two body hops before the third we see him do on-panel. Though that would still contradict the statement that Orochimaru left seven years prior, and _might_ contradict Itachi's age depending on when his birthday is supposed to be in the databooks. Not that any birthday aside from Naruto's and Hinata's actually _matter_, granted (October 10 is the anniversary of the Kurama attack and the final day of the war, and Hinata was abducted by Kumo on her third birthday, which is listed as December 27), so you can just push Itachi's birthday earlier in the year without contradicting anything.


----------



## Trojan (Mar 11, 2018)

Troyse22 said:


> Because if Minato was above the A/B Combo, he would've killed them.


I guess by your logic.

Hashirama = Kakuzu
Asspulldara = Onoki/Mu
Asspulldara = Gokage
itachi = Oro
Hebi Sasuke = early part 2 Naruto

and the list goes on. Because, for example, had Hashirama been stronger than Kakuzu, he would have killed him. And Kakuzu only had 1 heart when they fought.

Reactions: Like 2 | Lewd 1


----------



## Azula (Mar 11, 2018)

Madara's use of Izanagi.

The explanation given is that he set Izanagi to *activate later on* like Itachi and that's fine, but Izanagi is supposed the reverse damage *during* the time its active. How does it reverse things that occur when it wasn't even active. 

The rules don't apply to Madara.

Reactions: Agree 1


----------



## Blaze Release (Mar 11, 2018)

I'm not sure what this dispute is regarding minato learning of the bijuu dama but it didn't come from Bee who after learning the technique was kept in the village, so that rules him out completely. It is obvious it was from kushina. Kurama's jinchrucki's are the only one's shown that can use the bijuu dama in v2 and considering kurama seemed to have some kinda of hate towards minato to launch a dama at him, i'm willing to bet that kushina may have lost control a few times. May also explain why kushina taught minato a lot of fuinjutsu, but also why minato intentionally incorporated his hiraishin seal with kushina's fuinjutsu to always be on hand when kushina loses control.

OT - There are a few, but it's come to the point were it gets repetitive to list.

Reactions: Like 1 | Optimistic 1


----------



## Karyu Endan (Mar 11, 2018)

Godaime Tsunade said:


> Kakashi somehow going from struggling to use Kamui during the Pein Arc to mastering its usage less than a month later during the War.



1: Somehow the time duration of Part 2 is a year and a half. Naruto returns to Konoha 15 years old and a mid-year Chunin Exam is coming up. During the Hunt for Itachi and Pain arcs mentions of "16 years ago" happen in reference to the Kurama attack (and thus Naruto's birth), so Naruto turned 16 during his time in the hospital after the fight with Kakuzu. And then the final day of the war is referred to as Naruto's 17th birthday, so several months must have passed between the Pain arc and the War at the bare minimum. There's plenty of time for Kakashi to train his Kamui. We just don't see it (that or the trips to/from the Land of Iron and Turtle Island take _much_ longer than depicted).

2: It's mentioned more than once that Sharingan are most powerful when together, and Obito awakened Kakashi's MS for him when he saw Rin die. More than likely Kakashi unintentionally draws on Obito's chakra reserves (which have been artificially buffed to monstrous levels due to Hashi's DNA, and the fact that it's his eye lowers the cost to boot) when he uses Kamui in his vicinity. It _does_ explain an inconsistency in the Five Kage Summit arc. Kakashi winds himself using Kamui to warp Sasuke's arrows away, but the moment Obito arrives Kakashi somehow has enough juice to use it again to capture Obito, and the only thing stopping him is Obito saying that it won't work on him. Kakashi using Obito's chakra for Kamui whenever Obito's around would explain it.


----------

