# the weakest person Katakuri needs to beat Rayleigh



## trance (Jun 5, 2018)

I'm p sure the concensus is that old Ray can beat Katakuri after a good fight

so, who's the weakest person Katakuri would need to tip the scales in his favor?


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## Quipchaque (Jun 5, 2018)

Imo Katakuri is stronger than old Ray so he won't need any help.

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## Gledania (Jun 5, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Imo Katakuri is stronger than old Ray so he won't need any help.



Katakuri > rayleigh  means he is equal or superior to kizaru.


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## Gledania (Jun 5, 2018)

redrum said:


> I'm p sure the concensus is that old Ray can beat Katakuri after a good fight
> 
> so, who's the weakest person Katakuri would need to tip the scales in his favor?



I would say vergo. Or any supernova level.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 5, 2018)

I don’t see how Katakuri beats Rayleigh without help. Katakuri wrecked Luffy mostly because of his CoO. When it went away for 30 seconds Luffy completely overwhelmed him until Kata regained it. Rayleigh is a haki master and knows about the technique. In all likelihood he can use it as well, so he won’t be at a loss and struggling to hit Kata like Luffy was. 

Back on topic, Katakuri is still very strong, so he wouldn’t need major help. Maybe Sanji, since his speed and reaction can keep him alive against Rayleigh and he can help double team


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## Dunno (Jun 5, 2018)

Someone strong. Probably another Yonkou FM.

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## Extravlad (Jun 5, 2018)

Vergo would get oneshotted by Ray.

He'd need someone like Law at the very least, most likely a Cracker level fighter

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Quipchaque (Jun 5, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Katakuri > rayleigh  means he is equal or superior to kizaru.



No that´s not necessarily true. And even if that would be the case there is nothing wrong with that.

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## Extravlad (Jun 5, 2018)

Rayleigh > Katakuri.

The fact that Luffy just had to think really hard about Rayleigh's teachings to win should have made this clear.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 3


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jun 5, 2018)

You'd need someone who can hurt Rayleigh. 

The big problem is that there is quite a large empty gap between the crappy VA's and the level Luffy's at right now. I'd say someone maybe at the level of Capone or maybe a competent VA like Onguimo would be enough.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 2


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## savior2005 (Jun 5, 2018)

A high tier like Vista or Mihawk


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## Quipchaque (Jun 5, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> Rayleigh > Katakuri.
> 
> The fact that Luffy just had to think really hard about Rayleigh's teachings to win should have made this clear.



Nonsense. Ray sharing his basic knowledge with Luffy doesn´t mean Ray is automatically stronger. You could just as easily imagine Katakuri sharing that same knowledge with Luffy. Also is there a specific reason why Kizaru should get the benefit of the doubt over Ray cause of old age yet Katakuri does not get the benefit of the doubt despite Ray´s old age?


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 5, 2018)

savior2005 said:


> A high tier like Vista or Mihawk


Mihawk solos old Ray

Reactions: Like 2


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 5, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Also is there a specific reason why Kizaru should get the benefit of the doubt over Ray cause of old age yet Katakuri does not get the benefit of the doubt despite Ray´s old age?



Admiral level offense doesn’t allow for mistakes. Kizaru would’ve killed Marco instantly if not for regen, Aokiji would’ve done critical damage to WB if not for interference by his commanders, and Akainu’s attacks punched literal holes in WB. 

Conversely, Katakuri’s offense failed to keep base Luffy down, and his strongest/final attack on a much more heavily damaged/tired Luffy only knocked him out for 10 minutes. Katakuri is also heavily reliant on his CoO, as we saw when he lost it for a second. Rayleigh knows the CoO trick, and he’s one of the strongest haki users in the manga, with speed much greater than the base Luffy that was capable of dodging and even hitting Katakuri despite the CoO advantage. 

Rayleigh takes much less time and effort to fight Katakuri than he would an admiral.


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## God Movement (Jun 5, 2018)

Lmao.

He's going to need Jack or someone.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## g4snake108 (Jun 5, 2018)

Someone who doesn't get one-shot by ray and/or is not a liability for kata himself having to protect the other guy from Ray's attacks.

So probably one of the following-
Law(incredible hax which has to be avoided by Ray at all costs )
Zoro(should hang in there pretty good due to tankiness and double teaming ray may pull of the win)
Cracker(biscuits are too valuable of a distraction/keeping ray busy)
Jinbei(incredible on his own, working in tandem is stronger)


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## Quipchaque (Jun 5, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Admiral level offense doesn’t allow for mistakes.



Aside from the fact that that doesn´t really answer my question I can just as well say that Katakuri´s offense doesn´t allow for mistakes either. 1 mistake and you get suffocated, 1 mistake and your body is immobilized, 1 mistake and you get holes in your ribcage (or worse)... how is that any different from Kizaru putting tiny holes in your body? Besides Garp also barely did anything to Marco yet I am sure you would still put him above Katakuri despite your own logic contradicting that.

"*Kizaru would have instantly killed Marco if not for regen*"
is a baseless assumption and still doesn´t explain why Katakuri somehow should be unable to beat old Ray who has next to no feats.

"*Katakuri is heavily reliant on his CoO"*

That may be true but that still doesn´t make him automatically weaker than Ray. Every character is reliant on something. Swords, devil fruits or just other haki forms.

*"Rayleigh knows the CoO trick, and he’s one of the strongest haki users in the manga, with speed much greater than the base Luffy that was capable of dodging and even hitting Katakuri despite the CoO advantage. "*

Doesn´t mean Rayleigh can use it, Katakuri is also one of the strongest haki users and his speed is also much greater unless you are telling me that Boundman and Snakeman are somehow slower than Base Luffy.

*"Rayleigh takes much less time and effort to fight Katakuri than he would an admiral."
*
Assuming he can beat Katakuri in the first place. It´s an assumption until Ray shows more feats.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 5, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Aside from the fact that that doesn´t really answer my question I can just as well say that Katakuri´s offense doesn´t allow for mistakes either. 1 mistake and you get suffocated, 1 mistake and your body is immobilized, 1 mistake and you get holes in your ribcage (or worse)... how is that any different from Kizaru putting tiny holes in your body? Besides Garp also barely did anything to Marco yet I am sure you would still put him above Katakuri despite your own logic contradicting that.
> 
> "*Kizaru would have instantly killed Marco if not for regen*"
> is a baseless assumption and still doesn´t explain why Katakuri somehow should be unable to beat old Ray who has next to no feats.
> ...



Marco dove in front of WB to protect him from the attack and was punched full of holes. He then regened. That isn't a baseless assumption, it literally happened in the manga. If Marco could only fly and use haki and he didn't have regen, he would've been killed.

Katakuri being reliant on CoO is a problem here because he's fighting someone that can counter it. If Luffy developed adv CoO in the span of one fight from fighting a strong haki user, what do you think Rayleigh learned over the decades he spent with the pirate king fighting strong people?

When Rayleigh was training Luffy, he mentioned that attacks had an aura to them, and he could sense all of the animals on the island he was training Luffy on. Even if we assume the pirate king's right hand man who specialized in haki can't use future sight, he has all the tools to hard counter. Rayleigh can "see" attacks coming and react. Remember, he was the one who told Luffy of this ability first, he knows how to fight it.

Katakuri has never shown anything to put his speed on par with Boundman or Snakeman. On top of being too slow to consistently tag base Luffy, he was also too slow to catch Luffy running away immediately after G4 ran out. If Katakuri had Snakeman speed, how did tired base Luffy escape? Katakuri couldn't do anything to stop boundman blitzing him *until his CoO came back.* He only was able to dodge Snakeman by anticipating, fighting smart, and *CoO*. Dodging Snakeman attacks doesn't mean he has Snakeman speed. Does Sanji have Katakuri speed after dodging a jellybean using CoO? Sanji = Katakuri and therefore Snakeman speed?

Garp himself speculated *that there was no way the marines could handle Rayleigh and WB at the same time*. Do you honestly think he would say the same about Katakuri?


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## Gohara (Jun 5, 2018)

Lord Katakuri wins that match up in my opinion.  Overpowering an Admiral is something that Old Rayleigh has yet to do.  Lord Katakuri is physically superior to Gear 3rd Luffy who has overpowered an Admiral.  So in physical strength a good argument can be made for Lord Katakuri although Old Rayleigh might have superior feats later in the series.  Old Rayleigh is currently lacking in speed feats however Lord Katakuri is among some of the fastest characters in the series so unless Old Rayleigh is basically around the same tier or superior to Kizaru in speed I doubt that Lord Katakuri isn't superior in that aspect.  Prime Rayleigh's haki should be superior however it's possible that Lord Katakuri's haki is currently superior although we have no idea.  Even if it is true that Old Rayleigh is basically around the same tier and/or slightly superior in combined skills which is debatable Lord Katakuri also has an edge from being a Devil Fruit user with logia like qualities.  In skills they at minimum seem comparable if not Lord Katakuri seeming somewhat superior.  Prior to The Totland Island Arc Luffy has the portrayal and skills to be ranked around and/or slightly inferior to Admiral tier and Lord Katakuri has shown superiority to that version of Luffy.  So even if we're arguing based on feats I don't really think that Lord Katakuri looks inferior.

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## Gohara (Jun 5, 2018)

@ law

Rayleigh's observation haki feats are basic observation haki feats.  Dodging animals' techniques is a lot different than dodging techniques from one of the fastest characters in the series with the most impressive observation haki in the series.  Lord Katakuri spamming Devil Fruit techniques makes it even trickier.  Using awakening creates an environment where Lord Katakuri can spam techniques from all directions while Old Rayleigh has to counter Lord Katakuri's speed and observation haki.

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## DoctorLaw (Jun 5, 2018)

Gohara said:


> @ law
> 
> Rayleigh's observation haki feats are basic observation haki feats.  Dodging animals' techniques is a lot different than dodging techniques from one of the fastest characters in the series with the most impressive observation haki in the series.  Lord Katakuri spamming Devil Fruit techniques makes it even trickier.  Using awakening creates an environment where Lord Katakuri can spam techniques from all directions while Old Rayleigh has to counter Lord Katakuri's speed and observation haki.



Rayleigh sensed all of the animals on one island, and he knew how many of them were stronger than Luffy. He can gauge the power levels of hundreds of creatures instantly. I’d say that puts him above basic haki


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## MO (Jun 5, 2018)

perospero.


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## MO (Jun 5, 2018)

katakuri would not need that much help or any honestly. imo.

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## Extravlad (Jun 5, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nonsense. Ray sharing his basic knowledge with Luffy doesn´t mean Ray is automatically stronger. You could just as easily imagine Katakuri sharing that same knowledge with Luffy. *Also is there a specific reason why Kizaru should get the benefit of the doubt over Ray cause of old age yet Katakuri does not get the benefit of the doubt despite Ray´s old age?*


Actually Kizaru gets the benefit of doubt over Rayleigh because he had him panting without using anything but a sword made of light and none of the fancy kicks/lasers that he showcased in his various fights.

Katakuri isn't Kizaru, Katakuri's fight with Luffy portrays him in a terrible way, he made Luffy his punchingball for hours and still couldn't put him down, then he stabbed himself and went down after he and Luffy landed multiple hits on each othr with nobody really taking an advantage.

Katakuri's stamina/durability is pretty trash compared to Luffy's and so is his offensive power.

Kizaru would murk Katakuri mid diff, Rayleigh would need high-low diff I guess.

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## Richard Lionheart (Jun 6, 2018)

Doflamingo.

Vergo or Sanji would just die in the cross fire, while fighting.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 6, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Marco dove in front of WB to protect him from the attack and was punched full of holes. He then regened. That isn't a baseless assumption, it literally happened in the manga. If Marco could only fly and use haki and he didn't have regen, he would've been killed.



I never denied that that happened but you saying without regen Marco would die immediately is still an assumption cause a) we don´t know Marco´s armament haki level b) we don´t know how good his stamina is c) Marco could choose to dodge those attacks if he needs to so to say that Marco would die if Kizaru spams lasers is simply baseless. Let me ask you do you really believe it is that simple to beat a first mate?



> Katakuri being reliant on CoO is a problem here because he's fighting someone that can counter it. If Luffy developed adv CoO in the span of one fight from fighting a strong haki user, what do you think Rayleigh learned over the decades he spent with the pirate king fighting strong people?



A lot of people can counter each others abilities but Katakuri is way more than just his observation haki. Besides why aren´t you using these arguments to argue that old Ray has to be above Kizaru? What makes this scenario different?



> When Rayleigh was training Luffy, he mentioned that attacks had an aura to them, and he could sense all of the animals on the island he was training Luffy on. Even if we assume the pirate king's right hand man who specialized in haki can't use future sight, he has all the tools to hard counter. Rayleigh can "see" attacks coming and react. Remember, he was the one who told Luffy of this ability first, he knows how to fight it.



That´s a good feat but that only means Ray has shown some of his own haki feats that make him good in his own way but why would that put him above Katakuri if both of them have haki feats that the other doesn´t have?



> Katakuri has never shown anything to put his speed on par with Boundman or Snakeman. On top of being too slow to consistently tag base Luffy, he was also too slow to catch Luffy running away immediately after G4 ran out. If Katakuri had Snakeman speed, how did tired base Luffy escape? Katakuri couldn't do anything to stop boundman blitzing him *until his CoO came back.* He only was able to dodge Snakeman by anticipating, fighting smart, and *CoO*. Dodging Snakeman attacks doesn't mean he has Snakeman speed. Does Sanji have Katakuri speed after dodging a jellybean using CoO? Sanji = Katakuri and therefore Snakeman speed?



Yes he did or did you miss the fact that Katakuri could react to and counter both Boundman and Snakeman? He can´t move as fast as these 2 forms but he can react to them and hit them. There is a reason Luffy chose to use Snakeman after all and even then Katakuri could dodge Black Mamba and fight evenly. Yes katakuri needs haki for those feats but he also needs to be quick enough otherwise the fight would have looked like Luffy vs Bruno or Luffy vs Sandersonia and the other Snake woman. Katakuri´s reaction feats currently are the best in the manga (unless I´m forgetting something). Sanji dodging 1 attack from Katakuri doesn´t mean he has snakeman speed. It was casual, long distance and nothing like a bloodlusted Black Mamba attack etc.



> Garp himself speculated *that there was no way the marines could handle Rayleigh and WB at the same time*. Do you honestly think he would say the same about Katakuri?



If Katakuri is indeed stronger then yes I do believe that... why shouldn´t he?



Extravlad said:


> Actually Kizaru gets the benefit of doubt over Rayleigh because he had him panting without using anything but a sword made of light and none of the fancy kicks/lasers that he showcased in his various fights.



Ok and what proof is there to say that Katakuri wouldn´t be able to do the same?



> Katakuri isn't Kizaru, Katakuri's fight with Luffy portrays him in a terrible way, he made Luffy his punchingball for hours and still couldn't put him down, then he stabbed himself and went down after he and Luffy landed multiple hits on each othr with nobody really taking an advantage.
> 
> Katakuri's stamina/durability is pretty trash compared to Luffy's and so is his offensive power.



No it doesn´t that is horrible downplay. Luffy would get up against anyone in this scenario it´s the main protagonist after all whose willpower made him get up repeatedly. He will do the same against Kaido next arc and you know it. He was a freaking mummy after the fight that should tell you the whole story.

Katakuri´s stamina and durability is just as good as Luffy´s otherwise they wouldn´t stalemate. Katakuri makes up for the lack of pain resistance with his capabiliity to dodge like 95% of attacks which leads to extended fights that others create by tanking the attacks. Also I have repeatedly said that but Katakuri also has lower stamina than Ace and Jimbei... yet he is stronger so how is that relevant? And how can you prove that panting Rayleigh can fight for 12 hours in the first place? Way too many assumptions.




> Kizaru would murk Katakuri mid diff, Rayleigh would need high-low diff I guess.



two more assumptions that are based on other assumptions.

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## Furinji Saiga (Jun 6, 2018)

Anything below Law/Zoro would basically be one shot or die in cross fire, so I dont know how much help they can really be. 

Rayleigh > Katakuri with around high difficulty.

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## Ruse (Jun 6, 2018)

Law probably, perfect hax to play interference


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## X18999 (Jun 6, 2018)

Bartolomeo... they can hide behind his barrier while Katakuri uses Peerless Donuts.


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## xmysticgohanx (Jun 6, 2018)

Law would secure the victory through Room shenanigans


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## Oberyn Nymeros (Jun 6, 2018)

I dont know that Kats needs help for this one. 

Raleigh is terribly out of shape and while he would've certainly been above other Yonku first mates back in his prime, why should he be a step ahead of them now? 
He was getting tuckered out fighting an Admiral who was abstaining from using his DF and he hasnt used a sword in years.....


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## Amol (Jun 6, 2018)

Dressrosa SN level. 
Dark King is solid Admiral tier(regardless what you think about who would have won the fight against Kizaru).
So he beats Katakuri with High diff. A SN can actually help Katakuri while not going down immediately against Rayleigh. 
P. S. : I had thought everybody knew just how stupid 'panting' argument is. Both Luffy and Zoro has panted against their opponents in past at the beginning of fight and they had still won. Panting means nothing.
Rayleigh swam freaking calm belt without 'panting' . I wouldn't doubt his stamina.


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## Gohara (Jun 6, 2018)

@ doctor

True however it is still not in the same league of observation haki that we've seen from Lord Katakuri and dodging techniques from arguably the most impressive combination of speed and observation haki is a lot different than dodging animals' techniques.


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## Gohara (Jun 6, 2018)

Extravlad said:


> he made Luffy his punchingball for hours and still couldn't put him down



Luffy does that against all characters though.



Extravlad said:


> Katakuri's stamina/durability is pretty trash compared to Luffy's and so is his offensive power.



Not really.  Also Kizaru's offense isn't that amazing.  Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters have shown that they can withstand Kizaru's lasers so what reason is there to assume that Kizaru would have an edge against Lord Katakuri in that aspect?

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## Mr. Good vibes (Jun 6, 2018)

Law or other haxed characters around his strength would be the bare minimum I could see given Katakuri the win but they would have to strictly play the support role and not engage Rayleigh directly to avoid getting destroyed. Kata would need someone on DD's level to where I definitely could see the team prevailing the majority of the time.


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## Shiba D. Inu (Jun 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Also Kizaru's offense isn't that amazing.


what

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## Quipchaque (Jun 7, 2018)

Onewhosbeenaround said:


> Law or other haxed characters around his strength would be the bare minimum I could see given Katakuri the win but they would have to strictly play the support role and not engage Rayleigh directly to avoid getting destroyed. Kata would need someone on DD's level to where I definitely could see the team prevailing the majority of the time.



First of all you have to give a legitimate reason why Old Ray has to be stronger than katakuri in the first place. It´s just an  assumption and has no backing of the manga at all until Ray actually starts fighting for real. We know next to nothing about Ray´s strength.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 7, 2018)

Shiba D. Inu said:


> what



This is what the admiral detractors believe. Kizaru can shoot something as small as a key across a battlefield instantly with lasers that have gone through everything they’ve ever hit including a FM and Yonkou and blitz said Yonkou? Not impressive.

Katakuri gets his awakening eaten, wrecked by G4 when his CoO goes out, and fails to beat the weakest form of Luffy that is already handicapped despite having a 9 hour chance to do so? Top tier, stronger than Rayleigh, Kizaru, Green Bull, and obviously Fujitora

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## DoctorLaw (Jun 7, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> First of all you have to give a legitimate reason why Old Ray has to be stronger than katakuri in the first place. It´s just an  assumption and has no backing of the manga at all until Ray actually starts fighting for real. We know next to nothing about Ray´s strength.



-Garp states that the marines would not be able to handle WB and Rayleigh at the same time. Just
Rayleigh, not a crew. 
-Rayleigh is a master of every form of haki, and can sense how strong and how far away hundreds of things are simultaneously.
-Rayleigh stalemated an admiral and left unscathed. Unlike Marco and Jozu, we actually see him in a prolonged fight. Doesn’t stop people from saying that isn’t enough to know how strong Rayleigh is, but it’s enough to state Marco/Jozu = Admiral

It’s clear as day Rayleigh is strong enough to give an admiral a run for their money, while Katakuri peaked against a handicapped Luffy that was G4 for all of maybe 10 minutes during a fight that lasted for hours.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 7, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> -Garp states that the marines would not be able to handle WB and Rayleigh at the same time. Just
> Rayleigh, not a crew.
> -Rayleigh is a master of every form of haki, and can sense how strong and how far away hundreds of things are simultaneously.
> -Rayleigh stalemated an admiral and left unscathed. Unlike Marco and Jozu, we actually see him in a prolonged fight. Doesn’t stop people from saying that isn’t enough to know how strong Rayleigh is, but it’s enough to state Marco/Jozu = Admiral
> ...



-Prove he wouldn´t say the same about Katakuri
-so is Katakuri and as I already explained he too has haki feats that Rayleigh doesn´t have
-because we don´t. Just because you stalemate someone for like 5 mins (?) doesn´t mean he has to be perfectly equal.. it´s possible but simply not a fact, I also don´t care what other people say about Marco/jozu vs admirals. For me it is most certainly not a fact that commander x is stronger than an admiral but it is also not a fact that admiral x is stronger than a commander. Both things are assumptions that´s the point and you can´t really prove much with an assumption which is why it´s silly to say Ray has to be stronger than Katakuri

-and how strong is "handicapped Luffy that was G4 for all of maybe 10 minutes during a fight that lasted for hours."? It´s assumption based on assumption based on assumption. That simply doesn´t work. lol

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## Torpedo Titz (Jun 7, 2018)

Pearl


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## Gohara (Jun 7, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Kizaru can shoot something as small as a key across a battlefield



Kizaru has amazing accuracy true.



DoctorLaw said:


> instantly with lasers that have gone through everything they’ve ever hit including a FM and Yonkou and blitz said Yonkou?



A significantly nerfed version of a Yonkou and a Yonkou First Mate that intentionally takes those techniques.  Also Lord Katakuri's mochi has shown to be capable of piercing an insanely durable character in Luffy.  Also it is not the piercing abilities of Kizaru's lasers that I'm questioning.  It's the abilities of the firepower itself.  If Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters can withstand Kizaru's lasers it seems strange to make fun of Lord Katakuri's offensive firepower for not easily besting Luffy who is easily superior to those characters and is known for his amazing defense.  Also you keep insisting that it's base Luffy.  Again though Luffy's defense doesn't change based on form and if anything should be at it's most excellent in base because Luffy expends significantly less energy using that form.



Shiba D. Inu said:


> what



It's amazing in comparison to many other characters however in comparison to top and high ranking characters what characters have the lasers bested easily?  Characters significantly inferior to Lord Katakuri have withstood Kizaru's lasers and in some cases even while also withstanding a lot of other techniques.  Kizaru's Devil Fruit is still top tier.  However not necessarily because of it's offense.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 7, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> -Prove he wouldn´t say the same about Katakuri
> -so is Katakuri and as I already explained he too has haki feats that Rayleigh doesn´t have
> -because we don´t. Just because you stalemate someone for like 5 mins (?) doesn´t mean he has to be perfectly equal.. it´s possible but simply not a fact, I also don´t care what other people say about Marco/jozu vs admirals. For me it is most certainly not a fact that commander x is stronger than an admiral but it is also not a fact that admiral x is stronger than a commander. Both things are assumptions that´s the point and you can´t really prove much with an assumption which is why it´s silly to say Ray has to be stronger than Katakuri
> 
> -and how strong is "handicapped Luffy that was G4 for all of maybe 10 minutes during a fight that lasted for hours."? It´s assumption based on assumption based on assumption. That simply doesn´t work. lol



Why would Garp think the Navy couldn’t handle a lone Yonkou commander?

And are you saying Luffy didn’t have a handicap? He went through a gauntlet only hours before the fight where he fought for 11 hours straight , got his ass kicked by a literal army, was captured, and he only ate that shit food Sanji brought him. On top of that, his opponent has the advantage of literally seeing everything he plans to do and counter for it. His opponent even has a DF that is perfect for countering most of his techniques.  

How did he not have a handicap??


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 7, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Also it is not the piercing abilities of Kizaru's lasers that I'm questioning.  It's the abilities of the firepower itself.  If Pre Time Skip Supernova tier characters can withstand Kizaru's lasers it seems strange to make fun of Lord Katakuri's offensive firepower for not easily besting Luffy who is easily superior to those characters and is known for his amazing defense.  Also you keep insisting that it's base Luffy.  Again though *Luffy's defense doesn't change based on form and if anything should be at it's most excellent in base because Luffy expends significantly less energy using that form.*



Piercing ability is very important, because it means no one has withstood it. Semantics, I know, so I’ll drop that.

Boundman tanked a kick from DD that sent base Luffy fighting and hurt him. Tankman stopped a Cracker attack that previously cut Boundman. His forms have an effect on his defense.


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## Shrike (Jun 7, 2018)

I am curious, where exactly did the SNs tank Kizaru's lasers? Because I remember not tanking one bit of his kicks, let alone explosions that clear the groove...


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## trance (Jun 7, 2018)

Shrike said:


> I am curious, where exactly did the SNs tank Kizaru's lasers? Because I remember not tanking one bit of his kicks, let alone explosions that clear the groove...



i remember bakedzaru doing a whole lot of dicking around and only being serious once ray showed up


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## Quipchaque (Jun 8, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Why would Garp think the Navy couldn’t handle a lone Yonkou commander?
> 
> And are you saying Luffy didn’t have a handicap? He went through a gauntlet only hours before the fight where he fought for 11 hours straight , got his ass kicked by a literal army, was captured, and he only ate that shit food Sanji brought him. On top of that, his opponent has the advantage of literally seeing everything he plans to do and counter for it. His opponent even has a DF that is perfect for countering most of his techniques.
> 
> How did he not have a handicap??



Well why would Garp think the Navy couldn´t handle a lone Roger Pirate member? Whatever the reason is, it´s likely the same for both and/or unrelated to their overall strength. Or are you saying old rayleigh is stronger than the whole whitebeard pirate crew which the marines could easily fight against? And no I don´t think Luffy had a handicap but that was not the point anyway. I just asked you to tell me how strong that version of Luffy is supposed to be for you to use it as a feat to accurately judge how Katakuri would fare against Ray.

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## Gohara (Jun 8, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Boundman tanked a kick from DD that sent base Luffy fighting and hurt him. Tankman stopped a Cracker attack that previously cut Boundman. His forms have an effect on his defense.



That's about durability though we're discussing stamina in that Luffy can withstand a lot of techniques.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 8, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Well why would Garp think the Navy couldn´t handle a lone Roger Pirate member? Whatever the reason is, it´s likely the same for both and/or unrelated to their overall strength. Or are you saying old rayleigh is stronger than the whole whitebeard pirate crew which the marines could easily fight against? And no I don´t think Luffy had a handicap but that was not the point anyway. I just asked you to tell me how strong that version of Luffy is supposed to be for you to use it as a feat to accurately judge how Katakuri would fare against Ray.



Nice try, but He said they couldn’t take on the WB pirates and Ray at the same time. Doesn’t mean he’s on the same level as the WB pirates, just that the navy would be spread thin dealing with an admiral level threat and a war.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 8, 2018)

Gohara said:


> That's about durability though we're discussing stamina in that Luffy can withstand a lot of techniques.



I thought we were discussing defense?


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## Gohara (Jun 8, 2018)

You were discussing how base Luffy withstands a lot of techniques from Lord Katakuri and he does so because of how insanely good his defense is with endurance being the main reason that he withstands so many techniques from Lord Katakuri.  Endurance is an aspect of defense


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## Dunno (Jun 9, 2018)

Rayleigh is undeniably far above Katakuri when it comes to portrayal and hype. The few feats he has are also at admiral level (since he injured Kizaru slightly, but Kizaru made him breath slightly harder, thus indicating that he is neither higher nor lower), while Katakuri's are way lower (He lost to a Luffy who had needed help to beat Cracker). There's no reason to believe Katakuri to be as strong as Rayleigh.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 9, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Nice try, but He said they couldn’t take on the WB pirates and Ray at the same time. Doesn’t mean he’s on the same level as the WB pirates, just that the navy would be spread thin dealing with an admiral level threat and a war.



Exactly and Katakuri is obviously admiral level too so why would it be different in his case? You can't honestly believe the guy who has a legendary undefeated fighting record would have been disrespected by Garp and he would be all like "oh him? Just go capture him no big deal" while saying the opposite about an old Roger Pirate who likely can't fight much longer than an hour now?


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## Sherlōck (Jun 9, 2018)

Minimum Yonko commander level fighter. Anyone lower & Katakuri will get his 2nd defeat handed to him.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Phantom Thief (Jun 9, 2018)

I don't see how one could conclude Katakuri is Admiral level for multiple reasons. The first is that he's a Yonko's FM. Admirals are meant to be able to fight roughly on par with the Yonko themselves, not their Commanders. If this was not the case, the Marines would have been squashed a while ago considering the large gap in power between Yonko and their FMs. It's also implied multiple times in the manga that the power differential between Admirals and Yonko are pretty low. As an example, Sakazuki was able to go toe to toe with a calm Whitebeard, something I think most would agree Marco couldn't do. Not only that, but Sakazuki was practically unfazed by a dual attack from both Marco and Vista, only considering them an annoyance. Other examples include Kizaru being generally unfazed by a sneak attack from Shirohige and even just recently offering to get in the middle of a potential Big Mom and Kaido alliance all the while unperturbed. It certainly doesn't feel like Katakuri would be on their level. And I'm not even going to go into the obvious difference between how Fujitora handled G2/G3 Luffy once getting a bit serious and how Katakuri handled Base Luffy.

Reactions: Like 2 | Disagree 1


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## Quipchaque (Jun 9, 2018)

Phantom Thief said:


> I don't see how one could conclude Katakuri is Admiral level for multiple reasons. The first is that he's a Yonko's FM. Admirals are meant to be able to fight roughly on par with the Yonko themselves, not their Commanders. If this was not the case, the Marines would have been squashed a while ago considering the large gap in power between Yonko and their FMs. It's also implied multiple times in the manga that the power differential between Admirals and Yonko are pretty low. As an example, Sakazuki was able to go toe to toe with a calm Whitebeard, something I think most would agree Marco couldn't do. Not only that, but Sakazuki was practically unfazed by a dual attack from both Marco and Vista, only considering them an annoyance. Other examples include Kizaru being generally unfazed by a sneak attack from Shirohige and even just recently offering to get in the middle of a potential Big Mom and Kaido alliance all the while unperturbed. It certainly doesn't feel like Katakuri would be on their level. And I'm not even going to go into the obvious difference between how Fujitora handled G2/G3 Luffy once getting a bit serious and how Katakuri handled Base Luffy.



Admirals are not meant to fight on par with yonko. That´s the role of the fleet admiral. Tell me which admirals exactly are ever going to fight a yonko level character? The leaders usually fight the leaders and subordinates fight subordinates as the story implies over and over and over again with the battle setups. Heck the latest chapter made this yet again clear with Akainu giving the orders and Kizaru acknowledging that.

Akainu fighting Whitebeard only served to establish him as the new fleet admiral since it was only a technicality now that he hasn´t been promoted at that point in time (since Sengoku is very old) and a legitimate threat in the future. The fleet admiral (Akainu) will fight the yonko/PK character (Luffy/Sabo?/Dragon) while the admirals fight the subordinates/commanders/allies/Sanji(?) and whoever else is going to participate in the war. So far not a single admiral has ever fought and/or defeated anyone equal to Yonko tier.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Raiden34 (Jun 9, 2018)

Cracker or Doffy. Law maybe.


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## Dunno (Jun 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Exactly and Katakuri is obviously admiral level too so why would it be different in his case? You can't honestly believe the guy who has a legendary undefeated fighting record would have been disrespected by Garp and he would be all like "oh him? Just go capture him no big deal" while saying the opposite about an old Roger Pirate who likely can't fight much longer than an hour now?


Marco was disrespected by Garp. Why would he be more respectful to Katakuri?

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Raiden34 (Jun 9, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Marco was disrespected by Garp. Why would he be more respectful to Katakuri?


Disrespected because he called him and others ''brats'' ? Lol, no. This is the guy who called Aokiji ''greenhorn''.


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## Gohara (Jun 9, 2018)

Phantom Thief said:


> Admirals are meant to be able to fight roughly on par with the Yonko themselves, not their Commanders.



What is it that makes you suggest that?



Phantom Thief said:


> If this was not the case, the Marines would have been squashed



Sure that is true if the Yonkou all team up and if for some reason the other members of the World Government and Shichibukai don't team up with the marines which they do.



Phantom Thief said:


> As an example, Sakazuki was able to go toe to toe with a calm Whitebeard



Akainu does that in 1 panel against a significantly nerfed version of a Yonkou.  There are a lot of panels of top Yonkou Commander tier characters vs. Admiral confrontations that are even and sometimes in favor of the pirates.



Phantom Thief said:


> Sakazuki was practically unfazed by a dual attack from both Marco and Vista



Marco being around Admiral tier doesn't necessarily suggest that he has to slice an Admiral's head off in one technique.  Marco is basically unfazed against Kizaru's lasers.



Phantom Thief said:


> offering to get in the middle of a potential Big Mom and Kaido alliance all the while unperturbed.



Which doesn't necessarily suggest confronting those Yonkou characters specifically.  That is also the same chapter where Garp states that the World Government would be in hot water if those Yonkou characters team up.  Which is consistent with the World Government not wanting to match up against 2 Yonkou crews consecutively in the Marineford war arc.  Which is consistent with the World Government not wanting an alliance between Yonkou crews.

That is also the same chapter in which Shanks is chilling in Mariejois.  That is also the same chapter in which those Yonkou characters challenge the World Government.  Shanks doesn't think that the World Government can do anything against him walking into their territory.  Garp and those Yonkou characters don't think that the World Government can do a lot in skills against an alliance of Yonkou crews.  



Phantom Thief said:


> And I'm not even going to go into the obvious difference between how Fujitora handled G2/G3 Luffy once getting a bit serious and how Katakuri handled Base Luffy.



It would have to be proven that Fujitora was joking around prior to that and that Fujitora would be able to incapacitate Luffy before Lord Katakuri can and do so with less wounds.

Also Lord Cracker performs superior to Fujitora against Gear 3rd Luffy.  Lord Cracker is not necessarily > Fujitora however that's a more contextually based comparison than the one that you're using in your argument.  Also it is arguable that base Luffy's endurance is superior to other forms.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 9, 2018)

Dunno said:


> Marco was disrespected by Garp. Why would he be more respectful to Katakuri?



Defending the platform is disrespecting now? Come on that´s reaching at its finest.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Phantom Thief (Jun 9, 2018)

And Kuzan went up against this same Sakazuki for 10 days straight in a fight to the death. Their strengths don't differ much. All the Admirals should be roughly on par with eachother. I agree that the Admirals probably aren't as strong as the Yonko, but to say FMs are as strong as them is a great disservice. Yonko >> FMs.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 9, 2018)

Gohara said:


> What is it that makes you suggest that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cracker used his DF and haki to defend against G3. Fujitora didn’t.


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## Dunno (Jun 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Defending the platform is disrespecting now? Come on that´s reaching at its finest.


That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the comment he made after defending the platform. Is calling someone a brat not more disrespectful than calling someone a legend?


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## Quipchaque (Jun 10, 2018)

Dunno said:


> That's not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to the comment he made after defending the platform. Is calling someone a brat not more disrespectful than calling someone a legend?



TBH I don´t remember that since it has been too long since I read that arc but yeah that is probably a more legitimate point. Still I do not think that necessarily means Katakuri has to be weaker than Rayleigh cause this isn´t only about who is the better fighter and who demands more respect but also about Rayleigh no longer being in his prime which is really detrimental. After all Whitebeard also calls admirals brats yet you wouldn´t believe Rayleigh is above them, would you? And the reason is his old age. So yeah you might have proven a point about the reputation but that´s not conclusive for their strength relationship.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jun 10, 2018)

Probably a third commander
Anyone under that level makes no difference against this caliber of opponent.


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## Gohara (Jun 10, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Cracker used his DF and haki to defend against G3. Fujitora didn’t.



True however that is also a battle worn version of Luffy's character vs. Fujitora's character.


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## g4snake108 (Jun 10, 2018)

Gohara said:


> True however that is also a battle worn version of Luffy's character vs. Fujitora's character.


That luffy had a couple of days of rest. Luffy has done waay more with less than 5minutes of actual rest to say he wasn't near full power


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## Gohara (Jun 11, 2018)

If a character's wounds don't mean anything then there is no reason for that character's bandages.  I agree that it's not a significantly battle worn Luffy.  However a somewhat battle worn Luffy is inferior to Luffy otherwise.  Luffy has amazing endurance that is also true.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 12, 2018)

Gohara said:


> True however that is also a battle worn version of Luffy's character vs. Fujitora's character.



So this whole time you’ve been saying Non G4 Luffy > Fujitora in physical strength, you’ve been viewing that as a weakened version of Luffy? I have to disagree, Luffy knows how dangerous and powerful admirals are, and even before he got CoO from learning with Rayleigh he’s been pretty good at gauging just how powerful people are. He wouldn’t have attacked Fuji if his injuries were going to get in his way.


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## Quipchaque (Jun 13, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> So this whole time you’ve been saying Non G4 Luffy > Fujitora in physical strength, you’ve been viewing that as a weakened version of Luffy? I have to disagree, Luffy knows how dangerous and powerful admirals are, and even before he got CoO from learning with Rayleigh he’s been pretty good at gauging just how powerful people are. He wouldn’t have attacked Fuji if his injuries were going to get in his way.



The injures are not necessarily relevant, Luffy wanted to prove a point. Though I agree with gohara that Luffy wasn´t 100% recovered. There would be no point to draw Luffy with bandages if the author wants us to think that Luffy is fit. He would just make Luffy rip them off or something then. That aside I don´t see what´s the issue with Luffy being physicall superior to Fujitora. It makes sense since Luffy is a brawler (and one of the very strongest at that) and used a pure strength based attack to push Fuji back while Fujitora can make up for it with gravity, haki, swordsmanship etc.. Doesn´t mean Fuji has to be weaker currently nor is he proven to be physically inferior. It´s just a reasonable assumption based on current feats and portrayal.


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## Cliffiffillite44428 (Jun 13, 2018)

Nico Robin. She has the tools which could counter Rayleigh's CQC, which could probably give the fight to Katakuri.

She's the only person without Haki, who can accomplish/help a superior person accomplish this feat, I believe.

Reactions: Tier Specialist 1


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## Gohara (Jun 13, 2018)

Basically what zoro is arguing plus Luffy always does that so I'm not sure what you mean when you argue that?


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 14, 2018)

Gohara said:


> Basically what zoro is arguing plus Luffy always does that so I'm not sure what you mean when you argue that?



Well I just said that Fujitora didn't use haki when Luffy did, and you replied with "well that was a battle worn (i.e weaker) Luffy." That means you consider it a factor, so I stated why it wasn't. Luffy was making a statement by attacking the admiral, but he isn't suicidal. He's run away from admirals and knows how strong they are. If he thought he was significantly weakened, he wouldn't have attacked and put everyone at risk, but he knew he was okay. As someone already said, we've seen Luffy get much less rest after more fatiguing battles with stronger opponents than Doffy (Cracker+Yonkou Army) and pull off crazier things right after a bit of rest, like beating Katakuri in a 10 hour fight.

Secondly, the point still stands. Luffy used haki, Fujitora didn't. And unlike Kizaru's victims, Fujitora actually withstood the G3 attack. CoA* drastically* increases the power of attacks, making regular arrows go straight through stone. Luffy had a major boost to his attack, while Fujitora is just there defending with physical strength alone with minimal damage. How that screams Luffy >> Fujitora physical strength is beyond me. The bare minimum to be a VA is basic haki mastery, and the admirals have shown they can use haki to block something as powerful and widespread as a WB quake. Fujitora is very likely on or beyond Luffy's level of haki use. If he would've used haki, he would not have been pushed back.

I just thought of something else. Since multiple days of rest Luffy was "battleworn", what does that say about Katakuri who lost to 5 hours of rest Luffy?


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## Trueno (Jun 14, 2018)

I am going to say Cap'n Koby.

He is the weakest person that Katakuri can use to defeat Rayleigh. The Dark King is past his Prime and was only holding off Borsalino the entire time. Koby as he right now has incredible observation as well as impressive feats of strength. 

Koby just needs to clash momentarily for Katakuri to swoop in and rush Rayleigh. Especially, since Katakuri can see the future. The only reason Katakuri lost was because he wasn't used to taking so much damage and hadn't had a serious fight. But since he has built up endurance after that fight he can take on Rayleigh.

So Observation + Speed + Decoy Koby can take down Rayleigh.


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## Gohara (Jun 14, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> That means you consider it a factor, so I stated why it wasn't.



You're arguing that if Luffy thought that being battle worn would at all effect his performance against Fujitora he wouldn't have matched up against Fujitora.  Which isn't true because a fully healed character can't not perform superior to when they are battle worn and Luffy has done things like that a lot.



DoctorLaw said:


> He's run away from admirals and knows how strong they are.



Post Time Skip Luffy is significantly superior to Pre Time Skip Luffy so I don't see how that example suggests anything?  

Your point on Luffy vs. Lord Katakuri doesn't suggest anything unless we assume that Lord Cracker wounds Luffy more than Doflamingo does.



DoctorLaw said:


> Luffy used haki, Fujitora didn't.



So it is somewhat battle worn and not using one of his top Gear 3rd techniques and not using gear 4th vs. not using haki.



DoctorLaw said:


> How that screams Luffy >> Fujitora physical strength is beyond me.



Because there is also still Gear 4th which is significantly physically superior to Gear 3rd.  Gear 4th >>>> Gear 3rd Thor Gun Elephant > Gear 3rd Grizzly Magnum > Gear 3rd Elephant Gun.  Plus Luffy is somewhat battle worn in that match up.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 15, 2018)

Gohara said:


> You're arguing that if Luffy thought that being battle worn would at all effect his performance against Fujitora he wouldn't have matched up against Fujitora.  Which isn't true because a fully healed character can't not perform superior to when they are battle worn and Luffy has done things like that a lot.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Cracker has superior haki to Doflamingo, he nearly cut through his arm,  he fought him for 11 hours AFTER G4 ran out, and then immediately afterwards an entire crew gave him such a beating that he actually KOed. They beat him with haki while he couldn’t use it and was weakened already. He still hadn’t eaten for nearly a day, and only got 5 hours of rest. Him being tired, fatigued, and hungry was an entire plot point, and emphasized heavily.

Are you *actually* telling me that he wasn’t battle worn going into that Katakuri fight? But he was “battle worn” going into the Fujitora fight? Please explain the reasoning here.

G4 > G3 doesn’t prove Luffy > Fujitora, because we still haven’t seen Fujitora’s haki. Until he uses it in a fight, there is no reasonable way to make a conclusion that Luffy is superior in that regard. Period. And as for Luffy being stronger in terms of physicality, I doubt it. Haki + G3 pushed Fuji back and did minimal damage. That’s it. Imagine if Luffy didn’t use haki that multiplies his damage output? You honestly think Fujitora would’ve gotten pushed back? We’ve seen an actually battle worn Luffy fail to break a candy wall with G3 that Amande tore right down.


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 15, 2018)

yuLeopard said:


> I am going to say Cap'n Koby.
> 
> He is the weakest person that Katakuri can use to defeat Rayleigh. The Dark King is past his Prime and was only holding off Borsalino the entire time. Koby as he right now has incredible observation as well as impressive feats of strength.
> 
> ...



Rayleigh’s observation haki lets him gauge the strength of multiple opponents at once, and he is one of the few, if not only person to show this ability. He very likely has master level use of CoO to counter anything Koby has/does, and on top of that he has the reaction and speed to interrupt and sword fight with Kizaru. He’ll know Koby is wearing the CoO equivalent of pampers and eliminate him quickly.


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## Gohara (Jun 15, 2018)

DoctorLaw said:


> Cracker has superior haki to Doflamingo



True.  Your point on Lord Cracker is a good point if you're arguing that Luffy expends more energy in that match up however that doesn't necessarily suggest that Luffy is more wounded from that match up.  True about that enraged army match up however none of those characters are in the same league as Doflamingo so again wounds from that match up could still need more relaxing than wounds from the match up that he was incapacitated in.  Is Luffy even bandaged up in a match up against Lord Katakuri?



DoctorLaw said:


> G4 > G3 doesn’t prove Luffy > Fujitora



Unless using armanent Haki is a difference of many times then how is it not evidence that Gear 4th Luffy is physically superior to Fujitora?  If using armanent Haki is that much of a difference then what if Whitebeard's character were to use Haki against Pre Time Skip Akainu?  A couple techniques from Whitebeard's character significantly wound Pre Time Skip Akainu.  Multiplying those techniques many times?  That's not even including other nerfed aspects of Whitebeard's character.  Wouldn't Jinbe also break his hands if Big Mam's character were using Haki against Jinbe?  Since that technique creates no wounds on Big Mam's character even excluding Haki.  Kaidou's character easily withstands jumping off of a sky island and is unscathed without even using Haki?  All those characters' feats which are already superior to Admiral ranking being multiplied many times?  I doubt that you agree that Haki makes a difference of many times.  A significant difference sure however a difference of many times seems unlikely.  



DoctorLaw said:


> You honestly think Fujitora would’ve gotten pushed back?



Why not?  Especially if we're discussing Gear 4th?


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## DoctorLaw (Jun 15, 2018)

Gohara said:


> True.  Your point on Lord Cracker is a good point if you're arguing that Luffy expends more energy in that match up however that doesn't necessarily suggest that Luffy is more wounded from that match up.  True about that enraged army match up however none of those characters are in the same league as Doflamingo so again wounds from that match up could still need more relaxing than wounds from the match up that he was incapacitated in.  Is Luffy even bandaged up in a match up against Lord Katakuri?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I wasn’t talking about Gear Fourth pushing Fuji back, I asked if you thought Fuji would get pushed back from G3 Luffy without using haki? As in physical vs physical in the purest sense. It’s also not evidence G4 > Fuji in strength because Fujitora hasn’t shown the extent of his strength with his full ability. 

Akainu stopped a WB quake at close range, and Aokiji is around his level. WB + his DF is definitely on par with BM in terms of physical strength. BM no sold G4 with her elbow. I’m getting at the point that the admirals and yonkou are still the next level. Fujitora blocked that massive G3 attack with just his sword, and unlike WCI Luffy who’s fatigue was a plot point, this was a fresh Luffy that only had on bandages still because he had slept for days. Luffy regenerated a tooth from drinking milk before, rest and eating put him right back in top shape, and this has been a rule for several arcs. 

Fujitora with haki can’t possibly be physically weaker than a G3 attack he almost completely blocked without haki. His haki would have to be extremely weak to not give him that extra edge.


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## Gohara (Jun 16, 2018)

Who knows?  A point that you're not including is that elephant gun isn't even a top technique of Gear 3rd because there are other techniques in Gear 3rd superior to elephant gun.  My point is however more about arguing that Gear 4th Luffy is physically superior to Fujitora.  It's evidence that Gear 4th is physically superior to Fujitora because Gear 4th is a significantly superior power up than using armanent haki.

If full abilities is Fujitora using a Devil Fruit then I'm specifically referring to physical strength.  Gravity isn't a physical based Devil Fruit so I'm excluding that.  Zoro is able to break out of Fujitora's gravity and Sabo can maneuver around Fujitora's gravity.  So I also think that Luffy should be able to maneuver around that gravity.

Akainu does that to a nerfed version of Whitebeard's character and is also a technique aimed at foot soldiers.  Aokiji being basically even with Akainu in that aspect is speculative.

Whitebeard's character on par with Big Mam's character in physical strength is not only speculative it is also unlikely.  Big Mam's character leagues inferior to her current ranking easily physically overpowers a legendary giant character excluding haki and a devil fruit.  Whitebeard's character in that marineford arc does less than that against John Giant including haki and a devil fruit.  Big Mam's character has easily superior feats in that aspect.  Fujitora doesn't do that.  Fujitora does successfully defend against that technique in the sense that his character has no wounds however his character would barely be pushed at a distance if his character almost entirely parried that technique.  Again Luffy also has techniques in gear 3rd that are significantly superior to elephant gun.


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## cry77 (Jul 9, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Disrespected because he called him and others ''brats'' ? Lol, no. This is the guy who called Aokiji ''greenhorn''.


To be fair the whole "Rayleigh is a legend, but guys like Marco and Katakuri arent" probably was never about strenght alone. 

Even IF it was, it seems like a very weird "border" to have, considering old Rayleigh, Katakuri and Marco should all be in the same general ballpark.

Rayleigh being a legend in Garps eyes have probably more to do with the fact that Ray was  ROGER pirate, and a retired one at that. Both Marco and Katakuri are still active, so it makes sense for Garp to "disrepect" the younger ones.


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## Sage of 6 niggas (Jul 9, 2018)

Luffy


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## Raiden34 (Jul 9, 2018)

cry77 said:


> To be fair the whole "Rayleigh is a legend, but guys like Marco and Katakuri arent" probably was never about strenght alone.
> 
> Even IF it was, it seems like a very weird "border" to have, considering old Rayleigh, Katakuri and Marco should all be in the same general ballpark.
> 
> Rayleigh being a legend in Garps eyes have probably more to do with the fact that Ray was  ROGER pirate, and a retired one at that. Both Marco and Katakuri are still active, so it makes sense for Garp to "disrepect" the younger ones.


It's all about being old, Chinjao is also called ''legend'' and he isn't even close to Marco's or Katakuri's level.


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## Canute87 (Jul 9, 2018)

Law would make this fight too easy for  Katakuri.


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## Canute87 (Jul 9, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Nonsense. Ray sharing his basic knowledge with Luffy doesn´t mean Ray is automatically stronger. You could just as easily imagine Katakuri sharing that same knowledge with Luffy. Also is there a specific reason why Kizaru should get the benefit of the doubt over Ray cause of old age yet Katakuri does not get the benefit of the doubt despite Ray´s old age?



Kizaru is stronger than Katakuri.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Quipchaque (Jul 9, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> Kizaru is stronger than Katakuri.



I believe it once I see it until then I treat that as an assumption.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Canute87 (Jul 10, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> I believe it once I see it until then I treat that as an assumption.



The admirals are above this generations first mates.

but fair enough if you want to deny the obvious....until something happens what that something is for you i don't know.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 10, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> The admirals are above this generations first mates.
> 
> but fair enough if you want to deny the obvious....until something happens what that something is for you i don't know.



That is not obvious at all. Katakuri has shown better observation haki, armament haki, devil fruit mastery, reaction speed and is arguably on par in physical strength and lethality. We also don´t know if Kizaru can use conqueror´s haki or awakening and he´s completely lacking in stamina feats. You call it obvious I call it inconclusive.


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## Canute87 (Jul 10, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> That is not obvious at all. Katakuri has shown better observation haki, armament haki, devil fruit mastery, reaction speed and is arguably on par in physical strength and lethality. We also don´t know if Kizaru can use conqueror´s haki or awakening and he´s completely lacking in stamina feats. You call it obvious I call it inconclusive.



Sure.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 10, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> Sure.



a snarky "sure" is not gonna change that.


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## Canute87 (Jul 11, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> a snarky "sure" is not gonna change that.



I won't be able to convince you.

I mean Katakuri has shown better feats than Blackbeard, Mihawk etc.  You obviously don't believe the same.

If you're waiting on the whole "feats to be shown" what do i do there exactly?


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## Quipchaque (Jul 11, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> I won't be able to convince you.
> 
> I mean Katakuri has shown better feats than Blackbeard, Mihawk etc.  You obviously don't believe the same.
> 
> If you're waiting on the whole "feats to be shown" what do i do there exactly?



No I actually do believe the same lol. Maybe just accept that there is no reason to automatically assume Katakuri has to be weaker than an admiral? It makes sense for him to be weaker than Blackbeard because he is Luffy's greatest pirate rival, it makes sense for Kata to be weaker than Mihawk because that's a "world's strongest" and Zoro's benchmark. However there is no such thing that admirals have going for them that we should just give them a free pass as well.


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## Canute87 (Jul 11, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> No I actually do believe the same lol. Maybe just accept that there is no reason to automatically assume Katakuri has to be weaker than an admiral? It makes sense for him to be weaker than Blackbeard because he is Luffy's greatest pirate rival, it makes sense for Kata to be weaker than Mihawk because that's a "world's strongest" and Zoro's benchmark. However there is no such thing that admirals have going for them that we should just give them a free pass as well.



"Marines' strongest"


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## Quipchaque (Jul 11, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> "Marines' strongest"



That´s exactly the same as saying "yonko´s strongest". there is virtually no difference between yonko commander hype and admiral hype. Granted I do give an admiral the benefit of the doubt more often than not if I would have to guess. It´s just I do not rely on such vague guesses but wait for actual evidence. And imo it´s just silly to ignore the feats Katakuri has.


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## Gohara (Jul 11, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> "Marines' strongest"



The marines' greatest force, a vague title that is non-inclusive of pirates.


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## Canute87 (Jul 12, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> *That´s exactly the same as saying "yonko´s strongest"*. there is virtually no difference between yonko commander hype and admiral hype. Granted I do give an admiral the benefit of the doubt more often than not if I would have to guess. It´s just I do not rely on such vague guesses but wait for actual evidence. And imo it´s just silly to ignore the feats Katakuri has.



No because the yonkou are the best the *pirates *have to offer likewise the admirals are the best the *marines* have to offer.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 12, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> No because the yonkou are the best the *pirates *have to offer likewise the admirals are the best the *marines* have to offer.



That´s exactly my point. Different factions but same hype level.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 12, 2018)

Fleet Admiral is the best Marines can offer, not the Admirals.

There is no hierarchy between the Yonko, the other Yonko didn't give a darn about even Whitebeard's prime.

When Yonko challenges the Marines, its ; Yonko vs. Fleet Admiral, and Yonko commanders vs. Admirals.


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## Canute87 (Jul 12, 2018)

Erkan12 said:


> Fleet Admiral is the best Marines can offer, not the Admirals.
> 
> There is no hierarchy between the Yonko, the other Yonko didn't give a darn about even Whitebeard's prime.
> 
> When Yonko challenges the Marines, its ; Yonko vs. Fleet Admiral, and Yonko commanders vs. Admirals.



Whitebeard didn't fight Sengoku once. Commanders were easily dispatched by the admirals.

Besides both Kiji and Akainu were candidates for Fleet Admiral so they already had the strength and leadership capabilities already in tact.


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## Raiden34 (Jul 12, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> Whitebeard didn't fight Sengoku once. Commanders were easily dispatched by the admirals.


WB was massively weakened. He wasn't equal to other Yonko in the war. And Ace was captured. He could hold Aokiji or Kizaru for a while. Vista is useful too, he matched with Mihawk (a Shichibukai not a Marine)

Jozu and Marco could easily hold the other two Admirals.

Once Blackbeard replaced with Whitebeard, he fought against the Fleet Admiral in the war.


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## Gohara (Jul 12, 2018)

Canute87 said:


> No because the yonkou are the best the *pirates *have to offer likewise the admirals are the best the *marines* have to offer.



What if characters like the admirals aren't the top ranking characters that the world government have in their organization?


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## TheWiggian (Jul 13, 2018)

For decades the Yonkou were deadlocked and couldn't defeat this sick WB to reach the throne.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 13, 2018)

TheWiggian said:


> For decades the Yonkou were deadlocked and couldn't defeat this sick WB to reach the throne.



Which means practically nothing given that the current strongest character is still a yonko.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jul 13, 2018)

The Katakuri defeat really did a number on DiscoZoro's mental health on here. 



Threw his beautifully crafted tier-list straight into the trash can.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Which means practically nothing given that the current strongest character is still a yonko.



For all we know by other factors it might be 2 of the 4 current Yonks, the FA or the Revo leader. There is not enough evidence to put anyone else at this moment on same footing with the listed people.


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## Quipchaque (Jul 13, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> The Katakuri defeat really did a number on DiscoZoro's mental health on here.
> 
> 
> 
> Threw his beautifully crafted tier-list straight into the trash can.



Lol I see, so you still can´t handle that Katakuri´s feats far outshine Kizaru´s in almost everything. Btw how is your samurai-phobia?



TheWiggian said:


> For all we know by other factors it might be 2 of the 4 current Yonks, the FA or the Revo leader. There is not enough evidence to put anyone else at this moment on same footing with the listed people.



Yet your point about the yonko being unable to beat Whitebeard was still irrelevant.


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## Admiral Kizaru (Jul 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Lol I see, so you still can´t handle that Katakuri´s feats far outshine Kizaru´s in almost everything. Btw how is your samurai-phobia?



So you didn't learn a thing from Canute schooling you earlier in this thread? 


I guess your small mind can't grasp simple concepts like story relevance & progression, portrayal & hype.


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## Gohara (Jul 13, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> there is virtually no difference between yonko commander hype and admiral hype.



Individually vs. Kizaru



4 power ups after that:

In a team of 4 vs. Kaidou:


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## Quipchaque (Jul 14, 2018)

Admiral Kizaru said:


> So you didn't learn a thing from Canute schooling you earlier in this thread?
> 
> 
> I guess your small mind can't grasp simple concepts like story relevance & progression, portrayal & hype.




What´s this? I think I´m hearing a desperate english-man crying bout footballs and scary samurai. Let´s hope he gets over his fears.


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## TheWiggian (Jul 14, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> Yet your point about the yonko being unable to beat Whitebeard was still irrelevant.



I see you got a problem with reading properly, yet here you are laughing about a guy from UK that got excellent english that by far exceeds the shit you're spouting here.

Anyway for you it is just the beginning. WCI is over how many arcs are about to follow? Wano, Raftel, Final War with potential of at least 1 more mini arc and Elbaf? Who is there else to defeat? YC's had their shining moments already, now it's all about heavy calibers like Yonkou and Admirals, YM?

Soon you will be perceived no different to Serap, Erkan or Gohara if not already who also had outstanding quotes like 1 Yonk ≥ 3 Admirals, 9,6 B bounty for Sabo, BB physically being as strong as WB. Katakuri with his best shifting and speed feats in One Piece will be a great addition to them.

Iam looking forward to these times and btw Akainu already matrixed around Marco and Vista.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Soca (Jul 14, 2018)

Let's remain a little more civil in here, yes? Thanks.


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## Grimm6Jack (Jul 14, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Katakuri > rayleigh  means he is equal or superior to kizaru.



Oh boy. Ofc we would need some of that 0ld school Admiral wank in this thread.

Because the first mate of a Yonkou being stronger than an Admiral is really a scandal.

Please... 

BTW I don't think that he's stronger either, but there would be absolutely nothing wrong with it.



savior2005 said:


> A high tier like Vista or Mihawk



Nice trigger there...


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## Grimm6Jack (Jul 14, 2018)

Phantom Thief said:


> I don't see how one could conclude Katakuri is Admiral level for multiple reasons. The first is that he's a Yonko's FM. *Admirals are meant to be able to fight roughly on par with the Yonko themselves*



I stopped reading here... Go re-read the manga again and pay more attention.


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## Donquixote Doflamingo (Jul 14, 2018)

Grimm6Jack said:


> Oh boy. Ofc we would need some of that 0ld school Admiral wank in this thread.
> 
> Because the first mate of a Yonkou being stronger than an Admiral is really a scandal.
> 
> ...



 

Kizaru kicks Katakuris ass.


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## Phantom Thief (Jul 15, 2018)

Grimm6Jack said:


> I stopped reading here... Go re-read the manga again and pay more attention.


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## Sage of 6 niggas (Jul 15, 2018)

Grimm6Jack said:


> I stopped reading here... Go re-read the manga again and pay more attention.



And what exactly is wrong with it? Akainu pretty much handled WB himself, but was eventually outclassed. A single admiral might not be able to *defeat* a Yonkou but he can definitely push them to edge.

Reactions: Like 1


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## nyugimon (Jul 15, 2018)

if he and akainu teamed up they might be able to trim rayleigh's cock hairs. B)


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## Sage of 6 niggas (Jul 15, 2018)

DiscoZoro20 said:


> The admirals could barely push first mates to the edge so no idea what you are on about


Wut
Marco and Vista came with full force and stroked Akainu and he shrugged them off while calling them nuisance. Kizaru was matching Marco while fucking around.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> Akainu is ranked above admirals for a reason


And that's after the events of Marineford, there is nothing indicating Akainu is significantly stronger than other 2. Aokiji matched him for 10 whole days before going down, admirals during Marineford were more or less equal ae far as strength goes.


DiscoZoro20 said:


> In no universe of this world you will ever see Fujitora/Kizaru/Green Bull push the likes of Kaido or Shanks to extreme diff.


I like how you didn't include Big Meme 
Both Shanks and Kaidou only have hype going on for them, hype which doesn't indicate in the slightest that they can take multiple admirals at once.


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## Vivo Diez (Jul 31, 2018)

This bit is speculative, but I'm willing to bet Katakuri is the weakest FM from the weakest Yonko crew. Versus and old version of a FM from the strongest known crew in the series.

Anyway, Katakuri will need someone who can match Rayleigh in speed at least to the point where they can land a hit(or be able to effectively sideline him while Kat is fighting him), and have strong enough haki to make sure that hit actually inflicts damage.

Someone like Jozu/Doflamingo would ensure a decisive victory, weakest you could probably go would be Law due to his amazing support potential with his DF more so than his combat abilities.


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## Gledania (Jul 31, 2018)

Edit :


Kaido 2
BM 1.8
Shanks /Mihawk 1.75
Aka inu/ Ao kiji 1.72
Kizaru 1.65
Fuji 1.4
Fm yonko lvl 1.35


Ray 1.55

0.2 points difference means Extrem diff
0.4 points difference means high diff
0.6 points mid diff.


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## Vivo Diez (Jul 31, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Edit :
> 
> 
> Kaido 2
> ...


Why is Kizaru so significantly behind the other two admirals?


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## Gledania (Jul 31, 2018)

Vivo Diez said:


> Why is Kizaru so significantly behind the other two admirals?



Well he's not THAT much behind them.
It's just a personal feeling. They could be equal all 3. But I doubt aka inu or Ao kiji would strugle that much with Ray.


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## Intus Legere (Jul 31, 2018)

I don't think Katakuri needs much help against Rayleigh. He is weaker, but not by much. The thing is, to bridge this gap between Kata and Ray, he can't have some weak fighter helping, because this said person would get steamrolled by Rayleigh in no time. It's like... Katakuri is an 8 to Rayleigh's 10, but he'd need help from someone who is at least a 5 to bridge the gap without being easily defeated.

I don't think even Vergo, Smoker Sanji would do -- those three couldn't do much against fighters of Doflamingo's caliber after all. The safest bet for me would be Law -- but then would be a stomp to Kata's team, because even though Law isn't exactly on the same level, he is great at playing support roles.


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## Dunno (Jul 31, 2018)

Gledania said:


> Edit :
> 
> 
> Kaido 2
> ...


So are you saying that Kaido would need more than extreme diff to beat a Yonkou FM or are you saying that BM would need less than mid diff to beat Akainu?


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## Gledania (Jul 31, 2018)

Dunno said:


> So are you saying that Kaido would need more than extreme diff to beat a Yonkou FM or are you saying that BM would need less than mid diff to beat Akainu?



Wait over there  I made an error again ... I'll correct.

Kaido will Mid  diff a FM (depending on the FM) 
BM would Extrem diff Aka inu , While Kaido would High diff him.


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## gold ace (Jul 31, 2018)

Kata high diffs, maybe the higher end of high diff.


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