# Berserker (F/SN) vs. Bleach



## MAPSK (May 8, 2013)

Scenario 1: 1v1 gauntlet style
Scenario 2: All at once

PIS/CIS is off. Location is Fuyuki City. Who wins?

Bonus scenario: Berserker teams up with Lancelot


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## TehChron (May 8, 2013)

He doesnt need to, actually.

Godhand negates any attack on a conceptual level that lacks the quality of an A-rank attack.

Even if it were capable of blowing up the earth, Godhand would still no-sell it.

And Im pretty sure that there is no way that the Bleachverse possesses sufficient quality  to bypass Godhand.


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## MAPSK (May 8, 2013)

TehChron said:


> He doesnt need to, actually.
> 
> Godhand negates any attack on a conceptual level that lacks the quality of an A-rank attack.
> 
> ...



The series is at best C-Rank ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

> Even if it were capable of blowing up the earth, Godhand would still no-sell it.


ck



is he immune to KS ? ck


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## MAPSK (May 8, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> ck
> 
> 
> 
> is he immune to KS ? ck



That depends. Is KS A-Rank? ck


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## TehChron (May 8, 2013)

KS being...?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

it's not an attack ck



Edit : Aizens gay shikai ck


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## OtherGalaxy (May 8, 2013)

That sounds pretty NLF
(ck)
Just saying


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## MAPSK (May 8, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> it's not an attack ck
> 
> 
> 
> Edit : Aizens gay shikai ck



Doesn't matter. God Hand can resist and adapt to mental interference thaumaturgy from Caster ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

> A+ Bravery nullifies mental interference thaumaturgy


I have no idea what this means ck


was gonna mention Book of the End, but IIRC it has to cut whoever it affects (not sure if cut or touch)

respira is lolrespira ck I think noone cares about it anymore ck


don't remember any more notable hax ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

also, where Bleach is concerned, I like to use Aizens explanation that more reiatsu = ability to negate hax abilities of opponents

ck


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

> Bravery (勇猛, Yūmō?) is the ability to negate mental interference such as pressure, confusion and fascination. *Not usable under the effects of Mad Enhancement*.


does the bolded go for Berserker as well ?


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## willyvereb (May 8, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> is he immune to KS ?


His Braveryskill  most likely makes him so.
Nevermind that Aizen has no way of bringing him down.

Anyways, Archer managed to beat Bleach already.
Berserker would actually do it with almost an ease.
The only issue is his lack of ranged attacks.
But thanks to God Hand the Shinigamies, Arrancar and the rest would exhaust themselves trying to harm him.
And he'd dominate anyone stupid enough to try engaging Berserker in melee.


Fluttershy said:


> does the bolded go for Berserker as well ?


Well, Berserker's Mad Enchantment was deactivated until that certain fight in the Einzbern Castle.
Also I think it's more like that the mindset of a Mad Enchanted Servant kind of makes the Bravely Skill pointless.
They are already immune to fear, confusion and enemy control.
They lack sanity altogether.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

> They are already immune to fear, confusion and enemy control.


including interfering with the mind ? so for stuff like illusions/sensory manipulation and outright telepathy as well ? I presume something sufficiently powerful can still override it ? Berserker wouldn't be immune to the likes of Xavier/Luke etc., would he ?


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## zenieth (May 8, 2013)

Nothing in Bravery suggestions it'd make him immune to potent illusions.

Being batshit doesn't equal being cognitively different.

To suggest that is fucking stupid.


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## Byrd (May 8, 2013)

I don't see them beating him at all


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## P-X 12 (May 8, 2013)

I can't think of twelve different ways Bleach can kill Berserker (hell, I'm having problems thinking of one that isn't Yama's bankai, and I'm not even sure about that one), so Heracles takes this.


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## TehChron (May 8, 2013)

zenieth said:


> Nothing in Bravery suggestions it'd make him immune to potent illusions.
> 
> Being batshit doesn't equal being cognitively different.
> 
> To suggest that is fucking stupid.



So Aizen convinces him that up is down, somehow.

How does this make things any less of a one-sided slaughter when they eventually realize theyre gonna have to engage him in melee to stand any chance of doing any damage?


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## P-X 12 (May 8, 2013)

Also, what is KS going to accomplish?

Sure, it might slow him from immediately killing them all, but unless they can kill Berserker enough to negate God Hand (which they can't), at best KS will make a stalemate for however long Aizen keeps it up.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

Phx12 said:


> Also, what is KS going to accomplish?
> 
> Sure, it might slow him from immediately killing them all, but unless they can kill Berserker enough to negate God Hand (which they can't), at best KS will make a stalemate for however long Aizen keeps it up.


well stalemate is better then losing you know 






> How does this make things any less of a one-sided slaughter when they eventually realize theyre gonna have to engage him in melee to stand any chance of doing any damage?


they don't have to engage in melee, their best DC are ~Lanza/Fragor/Ultra-Fragor/Mugetsu/bankai North, all ranged

whatever good that does


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## MAPSK (May 8, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> well stalemate is better then losing you know
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Berserker can tank Excalibur ck


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## P-X 12 (May 8, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Berserker can tank Excalibur ck



Oh wow, I forgot that happened....

Yeah, Bleach is completely fucked.

Also, what's with the ck?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

> Berserker can tank Excalibur


I thought Caliburn/Excalibur take his lives and he is able to deflect a weaker Excaliblast (but deflect =/= tank)



I agree that GH is too much from them though ck


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## Hardcore (May 8, 2013)

Phx12 said:


> Also, what is KS going to accomplish?
> 
> Sure, it might slow him from immediately killing them all, but unless they can kill Berserker enough to negate God Hand (which they can't), at best KS will make a stalemate for* however long Aizen keeps it up.*



well it's permanent once you see it IIRC.


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## Akatora (May 8, 2013)

TehChron said:


> So Aizen convinces him that up is down, somehow.
> 
> How does this make things any less of a one-sided slaughter when they eventually realize theyre gonna have to engage him in melee to stand any chance of doing any damage?




Make him walk through a garganta = win due to leaving the battlefield or trap him in similar fashion.


THey shouldn't be able to match Herc in physical power but hax they just might.
Besides "Book of the End" if some of the others make so he could be hit by that and in the case it would work, could become strange.


My Guess:
He might win a 1v1
He won't win 1v verse


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## Hozukimaru (May 8, 2013)

KS make Barragan invisible?
Barragan ages him?




Fluttershy said:


> also, where Bleach is concerned, I like to use Aizens explanation that more reiatsu = ability to negate hax abilities of opponents
> 
> ck



Then it's a good thing that Berserker doesn't have reiatsu.


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## Hozukimaru (May 8, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> equalization ck



So how much reiatsu does he have?
Yama doesn't have time to teach him how to breath.


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## Ramius (May 8, 2013)

Not only does Berserk no-sell each and every's attack (can Bleach cast ALTOGETHER at once pack even nearly as much energy as an Excalibur? Thought so much), but they also lack the basic 12 methods to kill him.

Even if you struggle and wank the shit out of Barragan's ability, you still won't find another 11 methods. Everything else is no-sold with sheer durability.

And he owns each of them in hand-to-hand combat. Not all at once of course, but it's not like there are even many Bleach characters who have 20 mach reaction speed.

The only issue I can see is his DC. Outside the wanked "mountain" feat and whatever it was, he's pretty much garbage in  terms of DC.

I'd still give the win to him, but it will take him some time for sure.

He definitely doesn't solo HST though. Not even One Piece


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## MsPandoR (May 8, 2013)

MAPSK said:


> Berserker can tank Excalibur ck



what is excalibur's output? and how does it compare to all the ranged Bleach moves? o.o


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

by tank you mean lose life, but survive or tank w/o losing lives ? if the latter - when did that happen ?


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## P-X 12 (May 8, 2013)

MsPandoR said:


> what is excalibur's output? and how does it compare to all the ranged Bleach moves? o.o



In short? It's several times stronger than the most powerful attack in Bleach.


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## ironherc (May 8, 2013)

Berserker takes this 1 vs 1 easily. Against the whole verse it will be somewhat bothersome for him with some of their hax since berserker is a cqc fighter but i don't see almost any ability from bleach that can surpass god hand (i say max they take 2 lives.......and that's me been generous). 

bonus: :amazed


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 8, 2013)

Stables I see you lurking


defend the Clorox


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## Sablés (May 8, 2013)

Yeah. Bleach isn't touching Berserker with conventional attacks any time soon. Best they could hope for is a Respira + KS combo.

Question, equalization would mean prana and reiatsu would be....well equalized. That being said, are the mechanics of Prana the same as with reiatsu? As in, would someone with much more Prana/Mana no sell weaker ones?

If not, Respira should kill Heracles; that is, if Heroic spirits can even age.


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## MsPandoR (May 8, 2013)

Phx12 said:


> In short? It's several times stronger than the most powerful attack in Bleach.



Do you happen to have any calculations I can see and compare? I'm not doubting it's strong, I'd just like some evidence and numbers.


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## P-X 12 (May 8, 2013)

MsPandoR said:


> Do you happen to have any calculations I can see and compare? I'm not doubting it's strong, I'd just like some evidence and numbers.




Eh, sure. 

This Excalibur's strongest move, Excaliblast:





> Excaliblast Energy = 385.11 megatons




This is one of Bleach's highest calcable feats:





> High end: 23.99 Megatons
> 
> Low end: 15.83 Megatons




(We usually use low ends, btw)


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## manidk (May 8, 2013)

Garganta BFR is a viable option for those that have been shown to use it.

Or KS + Respira.


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## Renegade Knight (May 8, 2013)

ck ck ck

Lolflutter

Clorox gets destroyed.


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## manidk (May 8, 2013)

God Hand is Berserker's skin, right?

What about internal damage?


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## Kazu (May 8, 2013)

So clearing a few things up. 

Berserker has never tanked Excalibur. He blocked it, but that was from a weakened Saber who was running on Shirou juice. 



(Btw would that count as a class TJ feat?)

And being able to tank planetbusting attacks is a major hyperbole. Berserker has never been shown to be able to tank attacks on that level. If Arcueid tried to moondrop Berserker, do you really think he would survive? Hell no. 



> Doesn't matter. God Hand can resist and adapt to mental interference thaumaturgy from Caster



When did this happen?


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## rhu (May 8, 2013)

Didn't Berserker survive Alter's excalibur?
He lose two or three lifes right?


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## Kazu (May 8, 2013)

It seems like he died then GH kicked in.

Actually, looking at UBW, he seems to have taken Archer's caladbolg unscathed, despite it being A ranked. 

Can we powerscale caladbolg to hrunting?


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## manidk (May 8, 2013)

manidk said:


> God Hand is Berserker's skin, right?
> 
> What about internal damage?



I'm still curious, don't want to lose this on the last page.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 8, 2013)

Even a weakened Excalibur is more powerful than Shirou's Excalibur when he traces it.

And even if they somehow managed to take one life, God Hand reacts and evolves to tank that attack. So a single tactic gets nullified.


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## rhu (May 8, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> It seems like he died then GH kicked in.
> 
> Actually, looking at UBW, he seems to have taken Archer's caladbolg unscathed, despite it being A ranked.
> 
> Can we powerscale caladbolg to hrunting?



Of course he tanked, even wth A-Rank you need to_ kill_ him(and you know, he is pretty durable)

There is a reason why Gilgamesh pretty much carpet bombed him on the UBW route, instead of just using 12 A-Rank NPs

edit:damn, the "of course" sounds smug as fuck lol


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## Kazu (May 8, 2013)

manidk said:


> I'm still curious, don't want to lose this on the last page.



From fuyuki wiki. 



			
				Fuyuki said:
			
		

> God Hand - The Twelve Trials
> The normal ability is canceling any damage of B or below. Noble Phantasm ability is an extra 11 lives (yes 11 lives, not 12, meaning he has to be killed a total of twelve times). *It's effectively an armor coating the body.* The reason why Berserker looks grey is because of the God Hand. A blessing or rather a curse the gods gave to Hercules (hence, it isn't the materialized interpretation of his trials, it's an actual gift bestowed by the gods). Ever since Hercules gained this, no one has been able to do any damage to him. Confirmed that God Hand will actually develop resistance to damage taken once. The game hints that the lives actually regenerate. Seriously. Also see Conceptual Armament entry on God Hand.


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## manidk (May 8, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> From fuyuki wiki.



Thanks.

So would, say, Hachi teleporting Respira or an undetonated Lanza into Herakles's body bypass God Hand?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 8, 2013)

manidk said:


> Thanks.
> 
> So would, say, Hachi teleporting Respira or an undetonated Lanza into Herakles's body bypass God Hand?



No because it wouldn't really matter since he uses lives like Mario and develops resistance. You still need multiple methods.

And even then he's a tough bastard even long after he uses all his lives. Since he still trucks even being barraged by GoB.


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## manidk (May 8, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> No because it wouldn't really matter since he uses lives like Mario and develops resistance. You still need multiple methods.



Works for me.

But he needs to regen first to become immune, correct?

Containing Respira within him could essentially render him unable to fight if that is the case.

I don't really understand God Hand so bear with me.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

If you wanna have an idea how powerful a strike needed to even scratch God Hand let alone take off a life, I'll present Saber's durability since God Hand >>> Saber's Armor. 



You need to be at a certain strength to scratch this bitch and NP tend to be in proximity of each other on what can work to damage and the kind Gil was shooting out was making mincemeat of him. Even Excalibur's slashes were not enough, friggin Shirou's NP Kanshou and Bakuya can damage Saber Alter and Excalibur >>> dem shits. If she was probably at full power and had a better Master, that fight would've been better. Like when she was Saber Alter and basically backhanded Herc.

Bleach needs to be pretty fucking strong on the casual to do anything worth a damn.


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## manidk (May 9, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> If you wanna have an idea how powerful a strike needed to even scratch God Hand let alone take off a life, I'll present Saber's durability since God Hand >>> Saber's Armor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Oh, yeah.

I know external attacks from Bleach are basically nothing to Bazahka.

That's why I'm wondering about things like teleporting Respira inside of him or something.

Pretty much rendering him unable to fight I guess.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> If you wanna have an idea how powerful a strike needed to even scratch God Hand let alone take off a life, I'll present Saber's durability since God Hand >>> Saber's Armor.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Like I said, can Broken Caladbolg's DC be scaled to Hrunting's? If so, then Berserker can casually tank attacks of 120~ megatons.


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Godhand is a conceptual defense... attacks that aren't rank high won't even be register regardless if they are magical, physical, spiritual etc...

Even then you have to kill him to take one of his twelve lives and which he comes back resistance to that attack.

No one in Bleach is killing Berserker

and yes he can tank planetbuster if the ranking isn't high enough since its conceptual


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

Berserker shrugged off BP Caladbolg like nobodies business. Hrunting should be similar. It DOES have enough power to shake the bridge on force alone IIRC.



> Godhand is a conceptual defense...



There's that too. It's not a matter of "can I get pass his layer of armor" than more of a "would this shit even work at all"?


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

They are lucky this is herc in Berserker class... if he had his mind eye, it would be too much raping

That eye as well as Godhand makes him one of the broken servants in all of Type-moon


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Don't forget Nine lives.


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## familyparka (May 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Godhand negates any attack on a conceptual level that lacks the quality of an A-rank attack.



I always read people saying this but I don't recall it ever appearing on the games...

Can you show me a scan please?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)




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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Quite honestly, you're doing a little bit of wanking. This is why Type-Moon threads are problematic, people just latch on to "conceptual" without doing any critical analysis of the feats, and then laying on NLF

One must keep in mind transparency here. Basically, Rin's gems could kill Berserker once. So I'd be skeptical of him being flat-out immune to everything. That said, he has displayed impressive inherent durability, and the only thing I'd bet would guarantee a loss of life is Respira, and that can only take one.

Or, in other words, Type-Moon threads are asking for trouble, but regardless, Bleach gets raped hard.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Erudite Ape said:


> Quite honestly, you're doing a little bit of wanking. This is why Type-Moon threads are problematic, people just latch on to "conceptual" without doing any critical analysis of the feats, and then laying on NLF
> 
> One must keep in mind transparency here. Basically, Rin's gems could kill Berserker once. So I'd be skeptical of him being flat-out immune to everything. That said, he has displayed impressive inherent durability, and the only thing I'd bet would guarantee a loss of life is Respira, and that can only take one.



Well, Berserker isn't immune to everything. And he can't adapt to be immune to everything. That'd be stupid and full of NLF. Again, Berserker taking on planetbusters is a fine example of hyperbole. The best he's taken without losing a life is Caladbolg, which is 120 Mt powerscaling from Hrunting. And Berserker could take Excalibur once he has adapted. So we have our limits.   



> Or, in other words, Type-Moon threads are asking for trouble, but regardless, Bleach gets raped hard.



This is actually quite tame for a TM thread.


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Well, Berserker isn't immune to everything. And he can't adapt to be immune to everything. That'd be stupid and full of NLF. Again, Berserker taking on planetbusters is a fine example of hyperbole. The best he's taken without losing a life is Caladbolg, which is 120 Mt powerscaling from Hrunting. And Berserker could take Excalibur once he has adapted. So we have our limits.



That is the characteristic of Godhand... the problem lays in the ranking of attacks from other verses....

and Berserker has to die in order for the immunity to be granted

since Godhand is conceptual in nature..


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Well, Berserker isn't immune to everything. And he can't adapt to be immune to everything. That'd be stupid and full of NLF. Again, Berserker taking on planetbusters is a fine example of hyperbole. The best he's taken without losing a life is Caladbolg, which is 120 Mt powerscaling from Hrunting. And Berserker could take Excalibur once he has adapted. So we have our limits.


As I've said, I am perfectly willing to accept Berserker being able to laugh off almost all of Bleach's attacks, I am just skeptical of him being completely immune to some of the more hax abilities, most specifically Respira. I'm perfectly willing for him to adapt to most things, too. It's just that saying flat-out that he's completely immune to everything in Bleach, or really almost any other verse, starts looking like its edging towards NLF. One should be much more specific and critical than just giving him a flat-out pass from "conceptual defense."

Either way, I personally believe he dies once from Repsira and then murders everyone casually. This is rapetastic regardless, though.


> This is actually quite tame for a TM thread.


Yes, but I remember things like the Hulk thread. I just think it needs to be pointed out that some critical analysis is needed to prevent it from devolving rather quickly.


Byrdman said:


> That is the characteristic of Godhand... the problem lays in the ranking of attacks from other verses....


Can we say NLF?


> and Berserker has to die in order for the immunity to be granted
> 
> since Godhand is conceptual in nature..


No. "Conceptual" is not a free pass for NLF and wanking. If Lancelot grabbed the Ultimate Nullifier and made it a NP, it'd still be C-rank, or whatever Lancelot has. Herc would still die. High-tier bricks could keep tearing him apart, regardless. Lobo could just punch him over and over and he'd die each time, because Lobo can toss around suns, and conceptual or not, Berserker isn't tanking it.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> That is the characteristic of Godhand... the problem lays in the ranking of attacks from other verses....
> 
> and Berserker has to die in order for the immunity to be granted
> 
> since Godhand is conceptual in nature..



We really can't quantify ranks from Nasuverse to other verses. I'd think we just go with whatever the feats give us and use that. 

EDIT: Berserker doesn't have to die to gain immunity, just take damage. 



Erudite Ape said:


> As I've said, I am perfectly willing to accept Berserker being able to laugh off almost all of Bleach's attacks, I am just skeptical of him being completely immune to some of the more hax abilities, most specifically Respira. I'm perfectly willing for him to adapt to most things, too. It's just that saying flat-out that he's completely immune to everything in Bleach, or really almost any other verse, starts looking like its edging towards NLF. One should be much more specific and critical than just giving him a flat-out pass from "conceptual defense."
> 
> Either way, I personally believe he dies once from Repsira and then murders everyone casually. This is rapetastic regardless, though.



The only other thing he's stated to be immune to besides flat out destructive power is Gae Bolg's causality reversal and Rider's Mystic eyes. He's probably immune to Caster's mind control as well. He's bean beaten by Time manipulation and soulfucking.

Dunno about aging him to death though. Time manipulation was use of fraggle rock.


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> We really can't quantify ranks from Nasuverse to other verses. I'd think we just go with whatever the feats give us and use that.


This. Feats are objective and universal. "Ranks" and "concepts" are guessing games at best.


> The only other thing he's stated to be immune to besides flat out destructive power is Gae Bolg's causality reversal and Rider's Mystic eyes. He's probably immune to Caster's mind control as well. He's bean beaten by Time manipulation and soulfucking.
> 
> Dunno about aging him to death though. Time manipulation was use of fraggle rock.


I'd say a "conceptual" _should_ be able to include something like Respira, it being a simple and relatively low-level attack, but being conceptual it's a guessing game at best. Being able to beat causality reversal strikes me as more impressive than amateur timefucking.


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## familyparka (May 9, 2013)

I'll ask again. Can someone show me a scan?


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Thing is this is clearly stated as being the nature of Godhand 



> We really can't quantify ranks from Nasuverse to other verses. I'd think we just go with whatever the feats give us and use that.



Therefore we should avoid using him in matches due to the limited nature of Godhand...

Godhand is conceptual as it negates attacks... its not a matter of durability but like Radiou said, would the attack even work instead of getting negated.

Considering the conceptual shit type-moon pulls out, I don't see it being a problem.. point stands that no one in bleach can probably harm him unless they can come up with some attacks that are extremely hax



> Iv'd say a "conceptual" should be able to include something like Respira, it being a simple and relatively low-level attack, but being conceptual it's a guessing game at best. Being able to beat causality reversal strikes me as more impressive than amateur timefucking.



are you trying to claim Respira is a conceptual attack?

wut?


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Thing is this is clearly stated as being the nature of Godhand


Which doesn't leave it open to NLF or stupid wanking. "Conceptual" doesn't mean Berserker can tank planetbusters, period. He has no feats even approaching that. See, here we care about feats, not wank and character statement.


> Therefore we should avoid using him in matches due to the limited nature of Godhand...


I agree. I dislike most Type-Moon threads for this very reason.


> Godhand is conceptual as it negates attacks... its not a matter of durability but like Radiou said, would the attack even work instead of getting negated.


I don't care. It has limits, and it cannot, for example, block planet-busters because it hasn't shown the ability, or anything near it.


> Considering the conceptual shit type-moon pulls out, I don't see it being a problem..


I don't care. Feats are what matters here, and he isn't gonna tank a continent-buster, just for example. For the purposes of this thread, it doesn't matter, but Nasu-wank is annyoing and stupid.


> point stands that no one in bleach can probably harm him unless they can come up with some attacks that are extremely hax


Respira takes a life. That's Herc's only death.


> are you trying to claim Respira is a conceptual attack?
> 
> wut?


Reading comprehension is cool. You should try it. God Hand, being a conceptual defense, would allow it to void hax like Respira, despite its oddness. It wouldn't protect him against someone like Hulk or Lobo, who are so far above anything he's shown to resist that it goes solidly into NLF wank.


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## TehChron (May 9, 2013)

Actually, since their strength is way beyond what Herc has been shown, in terms of Nasuverse stat rankings, a class 100 would be EX+++ or something like that. Which is plenty to get past Godhand.

Were only saying that Bleach doesnt scratch Godhand because its a shitty verse with a shitty concept behind it.

Even in terms of pure strength, Bleach doesnt even begin to cut it. If we're back to talking haxx, then Word of God indicates that something like Gae Bolg, as a rank B, is little threat to Berserker, being capable of taking only one of his lives at most, when boosted to its utmost limit.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 9, 2013)

> and yes he can tank planetbuster if the ranking isn't high enough since its conceptual


why stop at planet level then ? ck


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## Tranquil Fury (May 9, 2013)

Ah God hand, starting shitstorms since it was introduced across forums everywhere. Rin's Jewels took a life if I recall, there goes your conceptual nonsense.

God hand has some checks like rank and mystery, Nine Bullet Revolver took 8/9 remaining lives by attacking simultaneously so fast God hand had to register all 8 slashes as one attack either that or it happened so fast God hand could'nt register. That planet busters won't work on Godhand does'nt fly here, it's H4X but let's not abuse a NLF.

Hachi or whatever that fatso's name is could teleport things inside people, don't recall Godhand's immunity to that. Not sure how Shunsui weird game H4X will work either. 

Regardless Berserker+Lancelot will do well before one of the top tiers like Dangai Ichigo, Aizen, Yama, Junbach or whatever he's called etc step in. Offcourse Lancelot depends on what weapons he can grab, he's situational but got solid stats, his NP is sadly anti-unit instead of anti-armor or anti-fortress so no Excalibeam. Godhand will require effort to put down or BFR if possible e.g Caja Negacion would BFR for atleast a few hours.

I am not upto date on HST power levels or calcs so I'm staying out of speed argument and this thread since it's gone the direction of most Nasuverse threads and dealing with something that's been argued to death i.e How God hand works and it's limits.

Can't believe I saw the old planet busters don't work on God hand argument, brings back memories.


----------



## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> So Aizen convinces him that up is down, somehow.
> 
> How does this make things any less of a one-sided slaughter when they eventually realize theyre gonna have to engage him in melee to stand any chance of doing any damage?



Where in the world did I insinuate that he loses? I was addressing a singular point and noting how retarded it is to stretch it when it's pretty clear what it means.


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> why stop at planet level then ? ck



It's confirmed - throwing Galaxies at Barsakah ain't working. Sorry, TTGL 
The Type Moon wank never ends. Let's pull a FTL reaction speed and MHS movement speed next.


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## familyparka (May 9, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Thing is this is clearly stated as being the nature of Godhand



Where is it stated? Can you show me a scan?


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## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

I'd like to note that Nasu has said that if Rin had used all of her possible jewels at the time, it'd have taken a shit load more than 1 life.

Also it's insane to say Excalibur would only take 1 life

Fucking Caiburn took 7 and I'm certain it was noted a true Excaliblast would have taken all, no sweat.


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## Ice (May 9, 2013)

Not to mention one attack can easily kill Berserker as long as you don't give him time to regenerate after each death.


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Actually, since their strength is way beyond what Herc has been shown, in terms of Nasuverse stat rankings, a class 100 would be EX+++ or something like that. Which is plenty to get past Godhand.


Really?

Okay, if we go down that route, then Berserker's ability is almost completely useless against people completely superior to him and we cut down on the wank. I like it.


Tranquil Fury said:


> Ah God hand, starting shitstorms since it was introduced across forums everywhere. Rin's Jewels took a life if I recall, there goes your conceptual nonsense.


I'm actually pretty sure her attack with the jewels and how much stored magic there was pushed the attack up to A rank or something.


> That planet busters won't work on Godhand does'nt fly here, it's H4X but let's not abuse a NLF.


Why _wouldn't_ it fly? God Hand stopping anything, even things dramatically above what it's shown, is just about the textbook definition of NLF.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 9, 2013)

> Let's pull a FTL reaction speed


CCC Gil ck


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## shade0180 (May 9, 2013)

he was Hit by Saber Alter excaliblast which was stronger than Shirou's saber And only took 3 lives at most. 

Caliburn effect wasn't fully explained. and lolNasu so we can't really compare it.


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## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

Also rank has nothing to do with how conceptual an attack is. Otherwise Excaliblast wouldn't be where it is when fucking Gae Bolg isn't.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

> Ah God hand, starting shitstorms since it was introduced across forums everywhere. Rin's Jewels took a life if I recall, there goes your conceptual nonsense.



Those Jewels were A Rank and were literally her best and only ones. Shit has nothing to do with concept other than best ranked magic enough to penetrate God Hand. Which Berserker IIRC attacked Rin the minute she performed that at point blank.



> God hand has some checks like rank and mystery, Nine Bullet Revolver took 8/9 remaining lives by attacking simultaneously so fast God hand had to register all 8 slashes as one attack either that or it happened so fast God hand could'nt register. That planet busters won't work on Godhand does'nt fly here, it's H4X but let's not abuse a NLF.



Something to do with his fucked up divinity but otherwise still need to be strong enough to hurt him regardless of lives. Cuz unless Bleach starts doing megaton range attacks on the casual (see Willy's calc on Saber's armor and you'll get the idea), they'll be hard pressed to kill just one life and even if they do he'll just be resistant afterwards.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

And for certain folks who can't seem to search worth of fuck, here's your damn scene.

[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiApsWe42YU[/YOUTUBE]

Also in screencap form since I'm a charitable bastard.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

TehChron said:


> Actually, since their strength is way beyond what Herc has been shown, in terms of Nasuverse stat rankings, a class 100 would be EX+++ or something like that. Which is plenty to get past Godhand.
> 
> Were only saying that Bleach doesnt scratch Godhand because its a shitty verse with a shitty concept behind it.
> 
> Even in terms of pure strength, Bleach doesnt even begin to cut it. If we're back to talking haxx, then Word of God indicates that something like Gae Bolg, as a rank B, is little threat to Berserker, being capable of taking only one of his lives at most, when boosted to its utmost limit.



Wouldn't berserker be around town level in strength from blocking excalibur?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Wouldn't berserker be around town level in strength from blocking excalibur?



Excalibur's way stronger than Town level. Try triple digit megatons.



And again, her slashes alone would be in the single digit megatons considering the checks and balances when it comes to NP and managing to damage her armor and Excalibur being better than most NP who manage to scratch it.



Berserker is as strong as Saber in swings but more than strong enough to crack through her armor and does.


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

@Raidou Kuzunoha
Define "A rank noble phantasm". Define its minimum firepower. 
You do realise that Saber's NP is freaking close to EX rank? A++
And GoB is apparently A rank, but it is only Multi block. Come on, Nasu wankers, you ain't even trying

In the end though - it doesn't matter. Bleach doesn't pull 12 methods


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## Ice (May 9, 2013)

GoB's strength lies in that it is a storage for the multitude of weapons in Gil's storage. It's not a fucking weapon.


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## shade0180 (May 9, 2013)

GoB has a lot of rank A(+) weapon inside it. It's not rank A it's just a spatial door to Gil's treasure room.


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## familyparka (May 9, 2013)

Thank you. You may continue now.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> @Raidou Kuzunoha
> Define "A rank noble phantasm". Define its minimum firepower.
> You do realise that Saber's NP is freaking close to EX rank? A++
> And GoB is apparently A rank, but it is only Multi block. Come on, Nasu wankers, you ain't even trying
> ...



Rank doesn't really correlate to actual strength numbnuts it's the mystery and other shenanigan bullshit behind it. 

Not many fiction operate like Nasuverse does so people here are actually lenient on what can work. Such as, what best feat can hurt character A/B/C and other shit. Otherwise it'd be a NLF in most OBD debates. Otherwise GH gives Herc lives like Mario and reactive evolution on defenses. On top of his other stats.

Saber with Excalibur without her full output is not enough. If it was she wouldn't have a damn hard ass time fighting Berserker the amount of times she did. His h4x prevents her from hurting him properly regardless of how strong she is. It's why GoB and UBW and Archer's Projection in general can work because they have a work around to that since they don't operate with only a single NP and use B+ Rank NP to get past God Hand.

Rin's best Jewels being A Rank in function despite not obviously as powerful as Excalibur or Rin nowhere near Servant level. It's a fucking h4x loop hole. Stop being thick.


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

Exactly. Now look at what you said.



> Cuz unless Bleach starts doing *megaton *range attacks on the casual (see Willy's calc on Saber's armor and you'll get the idea), they'll be hard pressed to kill just one life and even if they do he'll just be resistant afterwards.



Thus you defined its minimum firepower, which is fucking bullshit. Thank you

Still too thick to understand where I'm getting at? Alright, listen here: Rin's jewels by no means emit megatons. They are just HAX. That's why they took away one life.
And yet you require MEGATONS out of fucking nowhere with your assumptions.

Case in point: you DON'T (and I mean - not at all) need megatons or gigatons or other bullshit to damage Berserk. All you need is hax. In the end - that's what it's all about.

You know? Bleach may have gigatons or fucking terratons worth of ranged attacks and they'd still do shit if they aren't, to some higher extent, hax. ON THE OTHER SIDE - somebody hax enough may need only kilotons or tons to take away one of the Bers' lives.


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> Exactly. Now look at what you said.
> 
> Thus you defined its minimum firepower, which is fucking bullshit. Thank you
> 
> ...


Let me put it to you simply: NLF ain't flying. The other hits he's tanked have all been in the megaton range so either A) Rin's gems are far more powerful than they appear, B) It's akin to kryptonite, where one can use much less than the normal amount of force to kill someone, C) it was Berserker jobbing/PIS, or D) You can apply massive wank and double standards to get the results you want. A or C are the only possible answers, of course, but I'm honestly not expecting anyone who's wanking to figure this out.


> Case in point: you DON'T (and I mean - not at all) need megatons or gigatons or other bullshit to damage Berserk. All you need is hax. In the end - that's what it's all about.


Wrong. His feats say otherwise.


> You know? Bleach may have gigatons or fucking terratons worth of ranged attacks and they'd still do shit if they aren't, to some higher extent, hax. ON THE OTHER SIDE - somebody hax enough may need only kilotons or tons to take away one of the Bers' lives.


Wrong, yet again. Berserker has shown no ability to tank a teraton. I'm personally willing to give Nasuverse a decent amount of leeway, but you're wanking, plain and simple. 

Nasuverse threads, especially ones with Berserker, are problematic because of shit like this. I don't give half a rat's ass about conceptual defense or supposed "hax" or whatever. A strong class 100 will be able to tear Berserker apart as much as he wants.


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

Rin's jewels being in megaton range is the biggest outlier I've ever heard in Nasuverse threads. They are just magically strong/hax
For example Lancelot's NP is considered A rank and this means he'd be able to damage Heracles to some extent (of course not kill with one bullet, but you get what I mean) with Knight of Honor. Yet he wouldn't level towns with Knight of Honor, unless you give him heck knows what kind of tank.


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> Rin's jewels being in megaton range is the biggest outlier I've ever heard in Nasuverse threads. They are just magically strong/hax


Or it could be an outlier in Berserker's durability, as I said. Considering the actual amount of magic in the gems, though, honestly it would not surprise me if they were that powerful


> For example Lancelot's NP is considered A rank and this means he'd be able to damage Heracles to some extent (of course not kill with one bullet, but you get what I mean) with Knight of Honor. Yet he wouldn't level towns with Knight of Honor, unless you give him heck knows what kind of tank.


Actually, Knight of Honor makes a weapon a D-Rank Phantasm. Also, are you seriously going to argue for lower DC because of a lack of collateral damage? I thought that idea was killed and stuffed in a fridge ages ago.


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

EDIT: Yes. Actually King of Honor won't do shit. My bad.
I still believe Rin's "megaton" jewels is a huge huge huge outlier.


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)




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## Shiba D. Inu (May 9, 2013)

megaton Rin is legit ck

cause I say so ck


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> I know he makes a D-rank Phantasm, but that shit is capable of killing Saber, which mind you - has a strong armor and durability.  Actually - this raises the question: how would


How would what?

And that shit is capable of injuring Sabre because either it is that strong, or being a Noble Phantasm is has some property that allows it to injure a Servant more than the amount of energy in it would indicate. 

That said, with equalization in play and only caring about the confirmable, Lancelot's bullets are going to injure people with the same durability as Sabre outside of F/SN, because it's shown the ability to do so.


> And I'm not going to argue for lower DC here, it's just that Berserker took quite some sweet time to destroy a truck alone, which gave Saber the opportunity to advance towards him. I don't think it would have taken him that long if his bullets were stronger. Could have penetrated right through Saber if that were the case.


I haven't seen Fate/Zero in ages, could you be a bit more specific.


> This argument makes no sense actually though. Ye - King of Honor is worthless here.


Okay, this makes me feel a bit better about my confusion.


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## MAPSK (May 9, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> megaton Rin is legit ck
> 
> cause I say so ck



legit beyond legit ck


----------



## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

OFF-Topic, but what did Archer use against Berserker again? He didn't take away just 1 life. It was more of them. Was it UBW?


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> OFF-Topic, but what did Archer use against Berserker again? He didn't take away just 1 life. It was more of them.



Archer used his RM against Berserker... Unlimited Blade Works

Reality Marbles.. you know the type of NP that violates reality in a way


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## Ramius (May 9, 2013)

When he saved Saber, Rin and Shirou time, wasn't it?
Didn't he take away another of Berserker's lives before that though? Either Hrunting or some shit.


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## Erudite Ape (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> OFF-Topic, but what did Archer use against Berserker again? He didn't take away just 1 life. It was more of them.


I think he took 6 lives in Fate, via Unlimited Blade Works having all manner of fun toys.


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## Crimson King (May 9, 2013)

Who came up with the idea of aging Berserker? Why do you want to power him up even more?

you people forgetting that the older the concept, the stronger it is?


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 9, 2013)

Heroic *spirits* shouldn't suffer body damage due to age anyway I suppose 


what about prana consumption to sustain themselves ?  how does that work ? in the Grail war it's pretty important, but OBD matches idk


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## Boomy (May 9, 2013)

Servants are just actually shitty copies of Heroic Spirits, like avatats. Aging will give Barry as much as throwing pebble at him.

Not sure what you mean about prana consumption though. You mean like aging their prana or something?

edit: I will restrain myself from giving opinion about a fight. In the past arguing about God Hand and other conceptual stuff gave me headache.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 9, 2013)

> Not sure what you mean about prana consumption though. You mean like aging their prana or something?


well they need prana to remain as Spirits, no ? no prana = fade away

and rapid aging will deplete it fast ?

or not 


I don't think respira will be doing anything here anyway, just thinking of mechanics ck


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## Boomy (May 9, 2013)

They were compared to nature/divine spirtis iirc. They can take prana from the nature.

edit: how are we dealing with the Servants prana in the matches if Master aren't involved anyway? They can still boost them? ck


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## Sygurgh (May 9, 2013)

Is Gaia trying to crush the Servants in any versus that includes them? Or do we ignore it? In the latter case, Masters are superfluous.


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## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

Servants are not perpetual motion machines. Even without Gaia trying to crush them they need prana to survive and servants are god damn prana eaters. That's why the grail needs to stockpile every 50 years just to kick start them and even then they still need their masters fueling them.


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## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

shade0180 said:


> he was Hit by Saber Alter excaliblast which was stronger than Shirou's saber And only took 3 lives at most.
> 
> Caliburn effect wasn't fully explained. and lolNasu so we can't really compare it.



Saber Alter is fucking weird and an anomaly onto herself.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Angelator said:


> Rin's jewels being in megaton range is the biggest outlier I've ever heard in Nasuverse threads. They are just magically strong/hax
> For example Lancelot's NP is considered A rank and this means he'd be able to damage Heracles to some extent (of course not kill with one bullet, but you get what I mean) with Knight of Honor. Yet he wouldn't level towns with Knight of Honor, unless you give him heck knows what kind of tank.


That entire scene is really a whole load of PIS. Really, herk is just there to show how powerful other characters are.


Angelator said:


> OFF-Topic, but what did Archer use against Berserker again? He didn't take away just 1 life. It was more of them. Was it UBW?


A-rank sword spam.


Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Excalibur's way stronger than Town level. Try triple digit megatons.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, the excalibur he blocked was unquantifably weaker so i'd think we would just powerscale from half dead shirou. 
And i thought the reason every can break through saber's armor was because everyone uses slashing/piercing attacks (though which would make servants class GJ rather than MJ like they are now).


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## Sygurgh (May 9, 2013)

I might be wrong, but unless Archer had Rank-EX swords in UBW, I don’t think he could have sword spammed Rank-A swords due to rank degradation. Projected Rank-A swords are Rank-B.
Did he use Broken Phantasms?

Also, I don’t think it was mentioned that Archer deployed UBW against Berserker in Fate. It’s anime only.


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Broken phantasms, i guess.

And yeah, ubw was anime only.


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## shade0180 (May 9, 2013)

Archer used broken Phantasm which was higher than a rank A weapon to take away lives from Berserker.


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Archer used UBW in the Visual Novels as well... where the hell are yall getting it only occurred in the anime.

He used it Fate route as well as UBW route


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## Kazu (May 9, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> Archer used UBW in the Visual Novels as well... where the hell are yall getting it only occurred in the anime.
> 
> He used it Fate route as well as UBW route



Against berserker? The fight was offscreen. There was no mention that he used it against him in the visual novel.


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## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Kazuakisama said:


> Against berserker? The fight was offscreen. There was no mention that he used it against him in the visual novel.



In UBW, the fight is seen in more depth but in Fate in happens offscreen and he use it against Berserker.. I'm prettu sure he chanted his RM before the fight was shown and then it quickly switch back to Rin, Saber and that eroge scene

loltype-moon visual novels


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## Sygurgh (May 9, 2013)

Nope:


UBW isn't mentioned. He didn't begin the incantation. Not to mention that the lines can be used to strengthen the projections independently of UBW.


----------



## Byrd (May 9, 2013)

Well he used in UBW route tho I'm for sure of that.

But from rereading that, its heavily implied he did use it against Berserker


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

It was UBW, the reveal wasn't till the route itself that he had a Reality Marble.

Unless someone gonna say something stupid like he did something different despite his RM being his actual ace in the hole.

It's called foreshadowing.



> Well, the excalibur he blocked was unquantifably weaker so i'd think we would just powerscale from half dead shirou.
> And i thought the reason every can break through saber's armor was because everyone uses slashing/piercing attacks (though which would make servants class GJ rather than MJ like they are now).



Against magic armor than can allow her to survive against Enuma Elish to a degree? Gonna have to be a fuck ton more powerful than that.

Why do you think she had confidence in her armor when it came to fighting Darmuid? Because she wasn't expecting the fucker to have an anti-magic spear and his other spear would've been brushed to the side.



> Saber Alter is fucking weird and an anomaly onto herself.



Berserker + Corruption = Fucked up Divinity and made him blind.

Saber + Corruption = stronger than she needed to be.


----------



## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

And yet Excalibur doesn't do as much Damage as Caiburn, not even in the updated Realta Nua version.

Also pretty sure Avalon and Excalibur had a lot more to do with Saber not dying like a dog against Ea than her armor did.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

Shirou tracing Berserker's no named rock sword, not even a NP, best he can do was get Berserker's A+ strength in the tracing. Though probably B+ considering Projection rank down. Uses NLBW and attacked relentlessly 9 times at once and can kill him.

Saber Alter being much stronger and her Prana set to fucking infinity which allows her to use Excalibur as much as she pleases, barely shaves off a few lives IIRC. Supposedly Exaclibur at full power would've wrecked all his lives. This was that and infinity +1.

The much weaker Caliburn one shots 7 lives.

Yeah what?


----------



## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

you know Nine Lives skill, in and of itself is a damn powerful NP right?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

Most likely, but still it would've been ranked down and been weaker than what should've been properly.


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## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

How and why? Shirou's tracing ranks down the sword. The skill shouldn't be affected, it's a skill he just let the sword tell him what to do.

He's not tracing the skill, he's just tracing the sword that so happens to be one of the things to have the skill in memory.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 9, 2013)

zenieth said:


> How and why? Shirou's tracing ranks down the sword. The skill shouldn't be affected, it's a skill he just let the sword tell him what to do.
> 
> He's not tracing the skill, he's just tracing the sword that so happens to be one of the things to have the skill in memory.



The skill IS the NP. And skills count as NP when tracing.

Problem being just that, it's a NP being traced and NP get ranked down. The sword itself is worth shit other than a latch onto copying Berserker's strength and skill.

Even then it's kinda of a clusterfuck where someone much stronger takes few lives and whether the NP was ranked down or otherwise, destroys Berserker Alter.


----------



## zenieth (May 9, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> The skill IS the NP. And skills count as NP when tracing.



I'd like to know where you got this tid bit, cause I don't remember any statement noting that.



> Problem being just that, it's a NP being traced and NP get ranked down.



It's a giant stone slab being traced.



> The sword itself is worth shit other than a latch onto copying Berserker's strength and skill.



And where was it mentioned that those things rank down?



> Even then it's kinda of a clusterfuck where someone much stronger takes few lives and whether the NP was ranked down or otherwise, destroys Berserker Alter.



Cept you know. 9 lives specifically targets lethal places and is 9 strikes as opposed to one which takes multiple.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 10, 2013)

> I might be wrong, but unless Archer had Rank-EX swords in UBW, I don’t think he could have sword spammed Rank-A swords due to rank degradation. Projected Rank-A swords are Rank-B.


A+ becomes A ???


----------



## zenieth (May 10, 2013)

A+ becomes B+

the + are just extra juice kicking in.

And UBW is E - A++ so he's got something that'd normally be EX in there... somewhere.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

> I'd like to know where you got this tid bit, cause I don't remember any statement noting that.



Which part the NP is not simply the weapon itself but every aspect when being Projected?



> Shirou and Archer mentally divide the process of Tracing into seven steps, which include:
> Judging the concept of creation
> Hypothesizing the basic structure
> Duplicating the composition material
> ...





But with a lower quality considering he's just doing so from a glance considering it's only temporary.

Or the fact that skills are a type of NP and can be projected even if the weapon is not a NP itself? Unless you have some reason why every aspect of Projection doesn't rank down considering all aspects are part of the weapon and Projection isn't perfect, why would it just rank down the weapon itself? He's still copying.



> Cept you know. 9 lives specifically targets lethal places and is 9 strikes as opposed to one which takes multiple.



Except that doesn't particularly explain why that technique alone can knock off as much lives as Caliburn does. Hell, the one Shirou uses isn't even the real technique, and doesn't have proper stats, just a literal imitation.



I could've bought the fact that it could've been some sort of Conceptual technique along the lines of Gae Bolg in function like since it's a move based off the killing of the Hydra, therefore the relentless rush is not simply a physical destruction but shearing every life from God Hand no matter how hard it tried like some sort of anti-auto life technique.

But instead it's a high speed move targeting 9 different locations and attacking 9 times all at once. It's still one technique, which would've shaved off a life but not that many as it did. No matter if the quality was degraded or perfect.


----------



## Shiba D. Inu (May 10, 2013)

healing 1 fatal injury = takes 1 life ?


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> healing 1 fatal injury = takes 1 life ?



1 fatal hit = 1 life

Which then God Hand auto revives Herc and then he becomes resistant to it. Being one of the reasons he's such a prick to kill in-verse.

Caliburn ass pulls 7 lives on one attack which makes no sense considering it was said by WoG supposedly Excalibur would've been just as effective if Saber was running on all cylinders. But then you get this shit in HF where Saber has become Saber Alter, is much stronger than before to the point she's the one back handing him instead of her being hard pressed and her Prana is practically infinite, allowing her to spam Excalibur. Few lives at best.

Shiro, traces Herc's no named rock sword, best he can do is copy's Berserker's strength and skill, said skill isn't even the genuine article and shockingly enough doesn't have any stats on the move itself, allows him to one shot Berserker who was corrupted at the time. The nature of Projection makes everything that Shirou makes are a degraded copy. Even if you entertain the idea that the Projection was perfect, does not explain how it got by like that when you have someone much stronger do less and required a barrage of multiple high grade NP to bring him down. Like what Gil did or what Archer attempted.


----------



## shade0180 (May 10, 2013)

Shirou is the MC lets leave it at that.


----------



## Ramius (May 10, 2013)

@Raidou

That just counts as PIS. Seriously. Shirou's good at it. CIS, PIS


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

His plot armor's worse than Ichigo's. A better character but sweet jesus.


----------



## Ramius (May 10, 2013)

Explain further. I don't understand.


----------



## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Getting into situations that would've killed him several times over or has in fact been killed twice in the story, once by Lancer and the second at the end of HF. His run in with Berserker in Fate route might also count considering his insides were splattered across the street.


----------



## Ramius (May 10, 2013)

It was a joke..
I was impersonating Shirou. I know fucker's got plot armor more than majority of MCs get. And he's dumb. In the end it turns out he was just insane.


----------



## shade0180 (May 10, 2013)

Well shirou did have Avalon inside him but still. Yea lots of PIS.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Him using NLBW in of itself was an act of god, considering the initial Projection would've killed him and essentially as he put it, was like putting a gun towards his head and pulling the trigger. He pulls that trigger like several times.


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## Kazu (May 10, 2013)

Think of it this way, he has 4 endings where he doesn't die... And fourty something where he does.


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## Sygurgh (May 10, 2013)

I consider that Nasu showed us the rare endings where Shirou succeeded amongst the thousands where he died. After all, the Nasuverse uses the many-worlds parallel universes theory. It would explain his plot shield.

On the other point, there are multiple theories out there about Nine Lives killing Berkserker. The ones I remember are:

1] Berserker was rotting.
2] Nine Lives is:


> It originally had the form of the bow and arrows used to simultaneously exterminate the one hundred heads of the Hydra, an immortal nine-headed serpent, that would grow back no matter how many times they were cut down. Upon slaying the Hydra, he became able to utilize techniques that emulate the ability of the Noble Phantasm with other weapons


3] Shirou emulated Berserker's Rank-A+(?) strength.


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## zenieth (May 10, 2013)

raidou you say it ranks down the skill, wherein the thing that you quote notes that it faithfully copies the skill...

And it's not NPs that are ranked down, it's objects as a whole.

There there's Herakles not having 80% of his body
And his skin

And it's still 9 strikes to nine fatal locations. I'm not seeing how it's not simple to get.


I mean you act like Berserker was running on 100% during that charge,


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Again you're not catching the problem, it's still 1 skill and 1 method of killing him. After the first lethal hit, God Hand would've activated and preventing the rest of the 8 slashes to do jack shit.

That'd be like Kojirou using Tsubame Gaeshii where in some world he had A rank strength and that attack took off 3 lives because it's 3 slashes at once. Nine Lives being thrice as much in one move.



> raidou you say it ranks down the skill, wherein the thing that you quote notes that it faithfully copies the skill...
> 
> *And it's not NPs that are ranked down, it's objects as a whole.*



...which means the NP and everything that comes with it. You just restated what I just said at the end.



> Objects created with tracing are slightly inferior due to the fact that only so much information can be gathered by sight alone, *and* Noble Phantasms are degraded by an entire rank.



Christ almighty...

Yes his projections would enable him to perform the NP's moves and have him run on autopilot with the Servant's stats, but again it'd be a degraded version unless he managed to do a perfect projection like he did with Avalon.

Hell, I even entertained the idea that Nine Lives was working completely and his Projection was just peachy.



> I mean you act like Berserker was running on 100% during that charge



Nowhere have I ever thought as much when I practically mentioned his corruption earlier. Which still had him with God Hand.

So if Emiya Shirou as his UBW self with using Nine Lives on Berserker and he just happens to stand still for the sake of argument in a hypothetical match. Would it still do as much as it did? And why? Having lethal targeting locations doesn't automatically mean God Hand gets bypassed in a heart beat. Shit's automatic.


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## Shiba D. Inu (May 10, 2013)

> After the first lethal hit, God Hand would've activated and preventing the rest of the 8 slashes to do jack shit.


always assumed it was too fast for God Hand to activate 




> That'd be like Kojirou using Tsubame Gaeshii where in some world he had A rank strength and *that attack took off 3 lives because it's 3 slashes at once*.


should work 


unless there's lolnasu and more lolconcept at play


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Fluttershy said:


> always assumed it was too fast for God Hand to activate
> 
> 
> should work
> ...



If it was easy as simply overpowering God Hand then Berserker would've been dead the second he got hit with Excalibur by Saber Alter just out of shear strength and she's much more faster than Shirou any day of the week.

Here's how God Hand works.

GH as a NP is Rank B. Rank B and lower attacks get nullified outright. It's not simple armor as Saber exclaimed but a conceptual defense. So it's not a matter of raw power or being faster, it literally has to be a way to create a loop hole in that defense. 

Gae Bolg is based off of the spear that never misses and Rho Aias works against spears and there lies its power. 

God Hand being no different, thus it's based off of Hercs 12 Labors granting him a form of immortality and 12 lives.



It's a matter of fighting semantics with semantics.



The funny part being while Nine Lives Blade Works is a technique based off of Herc's killing of the Hydra, it is not a move that does anything special based off of that to do extra besides slashing.

Shirou literally won via asspull.

And worse when Nasu practically says this.



> ↑ Q: Is Berserker's "immunity against an attack he has experience before" an ability of his Noble Phantasm, or is it due to his ability to see through the attack?
> 
> A: The answer is that, it is a result of both the resilience of his body, as well as his techniques. *God Hand has the ability to make Berserker's body immune against an attack after it has been damaged once by the said attack.* Also, Berserker himself possesses the skill to see through an attack he has witnessed before. However, due to Mad Enhancement, this "technique of a swordsman" is sealed. As a result, he can only count on the ability of God Hand.



He got killed by a nine hit combo.

Caliburn was just seven lives in one strike. Shirou literally had to slash his way to victory.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

And rewatched the scene. 8 hit combo, a delay both for Berserker and Shirou, then Shirou follows up with the 9th hit.


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## Byrd (May 10, 2013)

I thought that attack shirou did was suppose to be instant... striking 9 times all at the same time.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Byrdman said:


> I thought that attack shirou did was suppose to be instant... striking 9 times all at the same time.



[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3RqF4bidYo[/YOUTUBE]

5:40 - 8:20

He aims for 8 targets. He attacks. Berserker still stands from the attack. Shirou prepares a finishing blow. Hercs attack is faster. Shirou attempts to dodge. Herc stops attacking. Shirou notice it stopping. Herc gets distracted by Illyia. Shirou stabs him.


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## shade0180 (May 10, 2013)

Like I said Shiro is the MC and lolNasu. 


ck


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

In short, even against a rotting, Divinity corrupted Berserker, who's also blinded. Shirou bypassed God Hand's bullshit by being Emiya Shirou even when there was a delay between attack 8 and 9 because he was busy dodging and by the grace of god, Berserker stopped mid-attack. By then God Hand would've registered the initial 8 hits.


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## Sygurgh (May 10, 2013)

If there was an interruption, then God Hand should have at least kicked in after the eighth strike. It’s a point in favor of God Hand not (properly?) working after the corruption. It might be that the resurrection is tied to body while the defense is tied to the skin (_"it coats his body in tough armor that transfigures all of his skin into a hard, lead colored material... the armor has the property of negating..."_).


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

More or less since a working God Hand would've been "no, fuck off". And it was not like he was completely obliterated by the 8 hits, he only lost an eighth of his body and that was enough to keep attacking and he was just as fast so it wasn't as if Shirou completely blitzed him. Shirou nearly died twice in that one scene alone, if not by activating his Projection, then by Berserker's blade. Not to mention resurrection is dependent on the severity of the attack. A light lethal hit like what Rin did would be instant and what Archer did would take hours.


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## Sygurgh (May 10, 2013)

The "an eighth" was a mistranslation.



> Alas, Japanese is 体の八割を失い.
> Which basically would be lost 8/10ths of his body.



Don't ask me how Berserker can swing his sword with only 2/10ths of his body.


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## Byrd (May 10, 2013)

oh wow....


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## zenieth (May 10, 2013)

I told you it was 80% of his body.

And Godhand's defense isn't Berserker's entire being. It's his skin, which, if you noticed, isn't there. Skin doesn't heal? Attack still good? keep going.

Godhand only kicks in after you've healed.


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## Kazu (May 10, 2013)

I suddenly remembered that BL had the translations from CM3. 



> God Hand - Twelve Labors
> Rank: B
> Type: Anti-Unit
> Range: -
> ...





So, it notes that Godhand isn't just the skin, it's the whole body.


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## zenieth (May 10, 2013)

huh, so it's not just the skin, though there's the he's only immune after he dies bit.

And the NP is the actual bow not the technique, huh.


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## Sygurgh (May 10, 2013)

Kazuakisama's link has some more information.

Unlike the generic definition which states that Rank-A Battle Continuation doesn't apply to mortal wounds, CM3 states:





> "A skill that allows for the continuation of combat after sustaining mortal wounds."


Should we suppose that God Hand was corrupted, it explains his ability to deal a last blow after being blown up by Nine Lives. Stranger things have happened in the Nasuverse.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

> So, it notes that Godhand isn't just the skin, it's the whole body.





> huh, so it's not just the skin, though there's the he's only immune after he dies bit.









It's like I'm the only person who actually pays attention to the story when I say it's not skin deep. The whole rock armor is asthetics to let you know God Hand is active. It's a part of it but not THE thing. It's still a conceptual armor and you can't beat down a concept with force. It just does not work that way otherwise every Servant much better than Shirou would've done so. He was lucky do so the situation he was in such as Berserker's body rotting, his Divinity being out of whack due to All The World's Evil and God Hand is straight up from his divinity. 



> And the NP is the actual bow not the technique, huh.



The Bow was the original weapon Herc used and Nasu mentioned numerous times that Herc would've been best an Archer because of that. And that Nine Lives when fired would've looked like dragon lasers. But Nine Lives can be modified into any weapon as a skill like if the move was done by sword, shield, your mother, whatever.


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## MsPandoR (May 10, 2013)

while you guys are spending pages talking about God Hand, why has no one mentioned Yama's ZnT? wouldn't one touch from East or West kill Herc outright? and what about Respira? it completely withers the body until nothing is left. can Berserker regen from nothing?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Because they're weak as shit?

While Berserker's strength and durability being in the megaton range, even if by some luck of god Yama gets a kill off of him, he'll just revive and become resistant to it. Making the attack worth shit.

And what about Respira?


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 10, 2013)

Seriously this is what's gonna happen when he comes into contact with Respira and he does the same shit when fighting the Shadows.

>Respira starts shit on one of his limbs
>Berserker notices
>Proceeds to amputate himself
>God Hand kicks in
>limb regens
>becomes resistant
>continues to truck


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## willyvereb (May 11, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Seriously this is what's gonna happen when he comes into contact with Respira and he does the same shit when fighting the Shadows.
> 
> >Respira starts shit on one of his limbs
> >Berserker notices
> ...


Yeah, and in that scenario Berserker wouldn't lose a single life from the encounter.
He does have regen similar to Saber.
And then God Hand which only kicks in when he receives a lethal blow.
This latter version is much faster (often occurring in a flash).


zenieth said:


> I'd like to note that Nasu has said that if Rin  had used all of her possible jewels at the time, it'd have taken a shit  load more than 1 life.


 Source?
And seriously, Rin used 5 of her Jewels with A rank spells in them to even harm Berserker.
Even if she used 10, that'd be only twice of the power.
Or  maybe that was referring to a scenario if Rin hadn't used 10 of her  jewels for the summoning ritual? So she actually would had 20 jewels to  use.
Still, that doesn't make it much stronger, either.
Unless in Nasuverse the power of mystery grows exponentially with the prana invested in it.




> Also it's insane to say Excalibur would only take 1 life
> 
> Fucking Caiburn took 7 and I'm certain it was noted a true Excaliblast  would have taken all, no sweat.


Except that the said "fucking  Calibum" had the conceptual counter to Berserker's God Hand.
It's possible it'd even taken out Heracles with his full 12 stock of lives.
**

Excalibur, on the other hand, does not have anything like that.
And no, there's no mention of Excalibur one-shotting Berserker anywhere in the VN.
The best can you get is the bad end in Fate.
There Illya taunts the heroes that if Saber had been at full power her Excalibur might've taken 3 of Berserker's lives.
Just three.
And well, call bullshit or anything but this claim was directly contradicted in HF.
Saber Alter's full power Excaliblast only took one of Berserker's lives.
Alter  also killed Berserker once via her regular attack and then Berserker  killed himself once when attempting to escape from the Shadow.
That's how he ended up with 9 lives.

And like Raidou explained, Dark Berserker was actually in an extremely crippled state.
It isn't much of a stretch to imagine that God Hand's functions were also limited.
Like I said, in a normal situation God Hand rejuvenates Berserker almost instantly.
Also  to bring up another example, in UBW Gilgamesh pierced Berserker with 21  Noble Phantasms at once. Yet that only counted for losing one life.

So yeah, Shirou was lucky to encounter a watered down version of Berserker.
No doubt, he was a strong opponent. But probably any decent Servant could've beaten Darkserker.



Kazuakisama said:


> Wouldn't berserker be around town level in strength from blocking excalibur?


Closer to low city level in striking strength. Shirou's Excalibur was about 3-5 megatons.
Berserker was squashing away something unquantifiably but stronger than that.

And yeah, other Servants don't necessary have city-level strength. Based on feats, their physical attacks are closer to building level but concentrated/efficient enough to break through Saber's city level armor.



Sygurgh said:


> I might be wrong, but unless Archer had Rank-EX  swords in UBW, I don’t think he could have sword spammed Rank-A swords  due to rank degradation. Projected Rank-A swords are Rank-B.
> Did he use Broken Phantasms?
> 
> Also, I don’t think it was mentioned that Archer deployed UBW against Berserker in Fate. It’s anime only.


EX Rank Noble Phantasms are pretty much divine creations so UBW cannot replicate them.
Not unless Shirou/EMIYA grows very familiar with their design like Avalon.

On the other hand the rank down for projections is more like a common mechanism for Tracing instead of an absolute rule.
For example, in UBW, Shirou matched Gilgamesh's Noble Phantasms with projections he just made on the spot.
I suppose Archer did something similar in Fate. He went "serious mode" and ignored his limits.



Byrdman said:


> Archer used UBW in the Visual Novels as well...  where the hell are yall getting it only occurred in the anime.
> 
> He used it Fate route as well as UBW route


Actually, I doubt he activated UBW.
He was just using 6 of his most powerful weapons (and probably tried many more).
Illya would've made comment on Archer using a Reality Marble if he pulled it off.
Berserker's inner monologue was also commenting on Archer's incredible fighting skill, so it sure as hell didn't involve shooting swords at him.


zenieth said:


> Servants are not perpetual motion machines. Even  without Gaia trying to crush them they need prana to survive and  servants are god damn prana eaters. That's why the grail needs to  stockpile every 50 years just to kick start them and even then they  still need their masters fueling them.


Well, even if they aren't, generic attacks sure as hell don't take much out of them.
They deiver hundreds of blows per second yet we have an example where a Servant can fight for half a day with no source for recharging.
Unless you believe that Kotomine would give Lancer even an ounce of prana after his betrayal in Fate.

And Berserker really has nothing more than generic attacks.
I think he'd do just fine.
Very-very fine.

As for magi supplying Servants with prana, that always made me scratch my head a little.
Even before the discovering of megaton calcs and stuff for Servants.
It was weird how a magi with barely a hundred units of prana can "supply" a Servant who have more than a thousand units.
Even moreso nowadays.
Most magi barely scratches building levels.
Yet they can serve as batteries for Servants who can unleash many-many megatons of energies in each battle?
Come on...

While Nasu took effort into this thing about quantifiable units of magic energy, in the story's context the system is full of holes.
In reality, characters use as much energy as the plot demands.
There are many inconsistencies once you look closely at it.
"Prana units" are pretty much like the "powerlevels" of the verse.
Except they not always translate to direct power.
There are people who're more efficient at using it while others less.
I think it's better if we look at the Nasuverse feats the same way as we do with Shounen.


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## Raidou Kuzunoha (May 11, 2013)

> As for magi supplying Servants with prana, that always made me scratch my head a little.
> Even before the discovering of megaton calcs and stuff for Servants.
> It was weird how a magi with barely a hundred units of prana can "supply" a Servant who have more than a thousand units.
> Even moreso nowadays.
> ...



The only case where this idea works realistically is Sakura. But by then she's reaching Counter-Guardian levels as far as Prana and Magic Circuits are concerned and Servants just act as her bodyguards.


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## zenieth (May 11, 2013)




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## Crimson King (May 11, 2013)

Raidou Kuzunoha said:


> Seriously this is what's gonna happen when he comes into contact with Respira and he does the same shit when fighting the Shadows.
> 
> >Respira starts shit on one of his limbs
> >Berserker notices
> ...



More like

>Respira starts shit on one of his limbs
>Berserker gets stronger via the mystery getting older.
>Bleachverse is fucked even more.


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