# Hamas hits school bus with anti-tank missile



## Megaharrison (Apr 7, 2011)

> Two people were wounded Thursday after an anti-tank missile exploded into a bus traveling in one of the communities surrounding the Gaza Strip.
> 
> Following the attack, 16 additional mortar shells were fired at Israeli towns in the western Negev, most of them hitting open areas.
> 
> ...





They sure seem eager to attack kids lately.


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 7, 2011)

Can you blame them ?


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## Coteaz (Apr 7, 2011)

The true face of the UN's darlings, folks.


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## Mael (Apr 7, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> They sure seem eager to attack kids lately.



Lift that blockade for the kids then.



Elim Rawne said:


> Can you blame them ?



Very true.  It's hard to pin blame on Islamist savages.



Coteaz said:


> The true face of the UN's darlings, folks.



It's ok...we can give them a five hundred and sixtieth chance, right?


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## Megaharrison (Apr 7, 2011)

Interesting to note that the Pali's probably thought it was cute to use an "overkill" method with an ATGM on a school bus. However it may have saved both the civilians lives, as the missile simply went through one end of the bus and out the other and exploded. The AT-14 (which they think it was) is designed to penetrate the thickest kinds of modern MBT armor. It's like trying to cut halfway through a piece of paper if it's a schoolbus. 

Had they used an RPG-7 both the driver and the child would have probably been killed instantly. Pali's fail even at blowing up school buses.

Not to mention the starving people of the Gaza Strip just expended like $80,000 to blow up a school bus


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 7, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Interesting to note that the Pali's probably thought it was cute to use an "overkill" method with an ATGM on a school bus. However it may have saved both the civilians lives, as the missile simply went through one end of the bus and out the other and exploded. The AT-14 (which they think it was) is designed to penetrate the thickest kinds of modern MBT armor. It's like trying to cut halfway through a piece of paper if it's a schoolbus.
> 
> Had they used an RPG-7 both the driver and the child would have probably been killed instantly. Pali's fail even at blowing up school buses.



How do you know they meant to kill them ?

It was probably a warning shot. The zionists are just blowing this out of proportion.


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## Mael (Apr 7, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Interesting to note that the Pali's probably thought it was cute to use an "overkill" method with an ATGM on a school bus. However it may have saved both the civilians lives, as the missile simply went through one end of the bus and out the other and exploded. The AT-14 (which they think it was) is designed to penetrate the thickest kinds of modern MBT armor. It's like trying to cut halfway through a piece of paper if it's a schoolbus.
> 
> Had they used an RPG-7 both the driver and the child would have probably been killed instantly. Pali's fail even at blowing up school buses.
> 
> Not to mention the starving people of the Gaza Strip just expended like $80,000 to blow up a school bus



It's ok.  Iran can give them another $80K.


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## sadated_peon (Apr 7, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Can you blame them ?



I can't tell if your a troll or not,......
which says a lot.....


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## Scud (Apr 7, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> How do you know they meant to kill them ?
> 
> It was probably a warning shot. The zionists are just blowing this out of proportion.


Nobody is blowing anything out of proportion. It is what it is. And _warning shot_?

lol get the fuck outta here. Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?


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## Mael (Apr 7, 2011)

Tatumaru said:


> Nobody is blowing anything out of proportion. It is what it is. And _warning shot_?
> 
> lol get the fuck outta here. Logic isn't your strong suit, is it?



People not noticing the troll: 1.


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## Psycho (Apr 7, 2011)

we get it, islamic extremists are stupid and don't know how to use advanced military equipment properly

last year was israel-palestine war year, this year it's japan tsunami year!


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## WakaFlocka (Apr 7, 2011)

back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth


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## stream (Apr 7, 2011)

Classy.

/10char


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## Extasee (Apr 7, 2011)

WakaFlocka said:


> back and forth and back and forth and back and forth and back and forth



I read this, look at your username, then giggle.


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## fantzipants (Apr 7, 2011)

Mael said:


> It's ok.  Iran can give them another $80K.



how about using the 80 k to buy food?


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## The Pink Ninja (Apr 7, 2011)

Excellent example of why Israel has the policies and attitudes it does.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 7, 2011)

fantzipants said:


> how about using the 80 k to buy food?



Food? Don't be silly. Palis don't need food, they need dead Jews. If some of them starve, it's because of the Jews, too.


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## The Pink Ninja (Apr 7, 2011)

Not that anyone in Gaza is starving which is more than you can say for millions of other around the world...

Even if the US 10% live without food security.


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## Mael (Apr 7, 2011)

fantzipants said:


> how about using the 80 k to buy food?



With Hamas?

Why not ask North Korea to stop juche?

Are you this naive?


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## hcheng02 (Apr 7, 2011)

Mael said:


> People not noticing the troll: 1.



In fairness, as sadated peon noted many posters in NF actually sincerely believe Elim Rawe's troll post's POV. Poe's Law is in full effect here. 



The Pink Ninja said:


> Excellent example of why Israel has the policies and attitudes it does.



Also, this. I like to see the not to look like impotent fools if they grant the Palestinians recognition as a state and then try to handle this crap.


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 7, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I can't tell if your a troll or not,......
> which says a lot.....



Indeed it does. You can't recognize the guy who trolled this section for the good part of the last two years. You could have Alzheimer's


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## The Pink Ninja (Apr 7, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Indeed it does. You can't recognize the guy who trolled this section for the good part of the last two years. You could have Alzheimer's



In his defence you're not really worth remembering.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 7, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> In his defence you're not really worth remembering.



In his defense, you're no one important either. Gawd I love opinions.


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## sadated_peon (Apr 7, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Indeed it does. You can't recognize the guy who trolled this section for the good part of the last two years. You could have Alzheimer's


yea.... sorry I haven't marked your awesomeness until now. I will be sure to correct this and make new idols in your honor.


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## The Pink Ninja (Apr 7, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> In his defense, you're no one important either. Gawd I love opinions.



Are you and Rawne dating?


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## Megaharrison (Apr 7, 2011)

Something else to note that in the exchanges of firing going on all day since this attack (3 Pali's killed in 15 IDF strikes, 50+ mortars/rockets fired from Gaza) the 2 Grads that were fired at Ashkelon were intercepted by the Iron Dome rocket defense system in its first combat use.

So there's the first time in history for that type of defense I guess.


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## WT (Apr 7, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Food? Don't be silly. Palis don't need food, they need dead Jews. If some of them starve, it's because of the Jews, too.



If its about killing jews, perhaps the pali's should take tips from your grandad.


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## Santí (Apr 7, 2011)




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## The Pink Ninja (Apr 7, 2011)

Off topic flaming, on topic flaming, totally irrelevant images and we're not even at post thirty.

I blame the Jews for this.


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## Darklyre (Apr 7, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> If its about killing jews, perhaps the pali's should take tips from your grandad.



If you're going to do something, do it _right_. God forbid the Palestinians have some bloody competence.


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## Hand Banana (Apr 7, 2011)

The Pink Ninja said:


> Are you and Rawne dating?



Yes, we are as of matter of fact.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 7, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> If its about killing jews, perhaps the pali's should take tips from your grandad.



My grandparents were like 5 when WWII ended


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## WT (Apr 7, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> My grandparents were like 5 when WWII ended



Doesn't matter ... they must have been taught to hunt down and kill while they were young ...


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 7, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> Doesn't matter ... they must have been taught to hunt down and kill while they were young ...



Nope, my family is all communists.


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## WT (Apr 7, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Nope, my family is all communists.



That's what they probably became after 1945


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## Hand Banana (Apr 7, 2011)

You're telling him about _his family?_


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## hellonoam (Apr 7, 2011)

its a good think that the IDF are retaliating instead of not responding. I just wish that they retaliated more fiercely to teach the Palestinians a lesson about terrorizing innocent citizens.

imagine just sitting in a bus, going back home from school, when a palestinian shoots a missile at you.... its horrible


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 7, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> That's what they probably became after 1945



My great-grandfather got rejected by the NSDAP, because *his father* sent him to a communist summer camp when he was a little boy. So yeah, the communism runs a bit deeper than that.


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## WT (Apr 7, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> My great-grandfather got rejected by the NSDAP ...



Getting rejected by the Nazi's 

Real reason must be because he failed at killing the Jews ... much like Hamas


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 7, 2011)

White Tiger said:


> Getting rejected by the Nazi's



His boss told him he could get a promotion, but only if he joined the party. In retrospect, he got lucky.


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## Talon. (Apr 7, 2011)

I have only one question: what the hell are they making the buses out of over there? O.o


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 7, 2011)

So, White Tiger is bashing Sauf because his granddad didn't join the Nazis

Muslims these days, sigh


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## WakaFlocka (Apr 7, 2011)

hellonoam said:


> its a good think that the IDF are retaliating instead of not responding. I just wish that they retaliated more fiercely to teach the Palestinians a lesson about terrorizing innocent citizens.
> 
> imagine just sitting in a bus, going back home from school, when a palestinian shoots a missile at you.... its horrible



Imagine walking home from school and getting blown up by an Israeli missile.
see two can play this game.


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 7, 2011)

WakaFlocka said:


> Imagine walking home from school and getting blown up by an Israeli missile.
> see two can play this game.



Exactly. The goddamn zionists need to leave Palestine.


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## Xyloxi (Apr 7, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Exactly. The goddamn zionists need to leave Palestine.



Well the crazy Zionists do, Zionism is pretty vague as ideological beliefs go, whereas the more progressive Zionists are rather reasonable.


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## Syed (Apr 7, 2011)

Xyloxi said:


> Well the crazy Zionists do, Zionism is pretty vague as ideological beliefs go, whereas the more progressive Zionists are rather reasonable.



Didn't know there were different types of Zionists. 

Unless the left wing are considered progressive?


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## Derpie (Apr 7, 2011)

Palestinian Rebel:

"Does Israel get the message yet or do more children have to die? Choice is yours. "


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## Adonis (Apr 7, 2011)

Are we sure this wasn't a Zionist oppressor disguised as a school bus?


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## Derpie (Apr 7, 2011)

Adonis said:


> Are we sure this wasn't a Zionist oppressor disguised as a school bus?



I presume from the Palestinian point of view, anything that resembles Israeli power is a potential threat. This school bus was a sign of peace for Israel despite their being embroiled in war. What better way to remind Israelis whose land they claim than to attack them when and where they least expect it.

No picnics on Palestine, the militants say.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 7, 2011)

Derpie said:


> Palestinian Rebel:
> 
> "Does Israel get the message yet or do more children have to die? Choice is yours. "



Justification of deliberate child-killing, gotta love the Pali's and their crusaders.


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## Mintaka (Apr 7, 2011)

See if Israel didn't exist this would never have happened, therefore it is Israels fault once again.


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## Derpie (Apr 7, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Justification of deliberate child-killing, gotta love the Pali's and their crusaders.



I don't necessarily support Palestinians more than I do Israelis but how exactly do expect the former to respond in earnest? Will Israel ever consider relinquishing its right to exist?

No, and I wouldn't either if it was my choice.


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## Derpie (Apr 7, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Justification of deliberate child-killing, gotta love the Pali's and their crusaders.



I'm not justifying the child-killing nor do I necessarily support Palestinians more than I do Israelis but how exactly do expect the former to respond? 

Will Israel ever consider relinquishing its right to exist?

No, and I wouldn't either if it was my choice.

And at the end of the day, these kind of attacks put a gigantic spotlight on the issue.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 7, 2011)

Derpie said:


> I'm not justifying the child-killing nor do I necessarily support Palestinians more than I do Israelis but how exactly do expect the former to respond?
> 
> Will Israel ever consider relinquishing its right to exist?
> 
> ...



This "how do you expect for them to not kill kids" is exactly what I said, justification of said child killing. It shows the mindset of you people. 

In any regard we left Gaza, there's nothing for them to "resist" against unless you want all of Israel destroyed, in which case the Pali's can have fun with making their own lives miserable.


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## Razgriez (Apr 7, 2011)

Derpie said:


> I'm not justifying the child-killing nor do I necessarily support Palestinians more than I do Israelis but how exactly do expect the former to respond?
> 
> Will Israel ever consider relinquishing its right to exist?
> 
> ...



Wait. You were being serious?


Hahahahahahah!


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## Coteaz (Apr 7, 2011)

Derpie said:


> Palestinian Rebel:
> 
> "Does Israel get the message yet or do more children have to die? Choice is yours. "


You know, the Palestinians _could_ simply lay down their arms, cease their insane genocidal mission, and either establish a peaceful state or integrate into Israel. 

But that's too much to ask of degenerate savages, I know.


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## Derpie (Apr 7, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> You know, the Palestinians _could_ simply lay down their arms, cease their insane genocidal mission, and either establish a peaceful state or integrate into Israel.
> 
> But that's too much to ask of degenerate savages, I know.



I doubt the Palestinians want to "a peaceful state" alongside Israel, and I know they don't want to integrate either, so the only option is to get Israel to capitulate to their one and only true demand, which is in itself totally unreasonable from an Israeli point of view.

Unrelated: Does anyone know why when I login, I can only see one post at a time while coasting through threads?


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## Coteaz (Apr 7, 2011)

Derpie said:


> I doubt the Palestinians want to "a peaceful state" alongside Israel, and I know they don't want to integrate either, so the only option is to get Israel to capitulate to their one and only true demand, which is in itself totally unreasonable from an Israeli point of view.


In that case, they've chosen their own annihilation and should gladly accept the inevitable holocaust.


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## BullMoose (Apr 8, 2011)

Can we just drop a nuke over there?


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## Derpie (Apr 8, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> In that case, they've chosen their own annihilation and should gladly accept the inevitable holocaust.



Israel does not have the war capacity to decimate the entire Middle East without serious and irrevocable consequences, which is exactly what it would take to begin and sustain any Holocaust aimed at Palestinians.


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## Razgriez (Apr 8, 2011)

Derpie said:


> Israel does not have the war capacity to decimate the entire Middle East without serious and irrevocable consequences, which is exactly what it would take to begin and sustain any Holocaust aimed at Palestinians.



Israel does have the ability to beat them all into submission just look at the last engagement where all its neighbors tried to take out Israel. Oh that went down REAL well for them. After that they could carpet bomb Palestine all they want and the Arab nations would just go crying about it.


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## Derpie (Apr 8, 2011)

Razgriez said:


> Israel does have the ability to beat them all into submission just look at the last engagement where all its neighbors tried to take out Israel. Oh that went down REAL well for them. After that they could carpet bomb Palestine all they want and the Arab nations would just go crying about it.



I'm doubtful.

The last such engagement was more than 20 years ago, with a trio of Arab nations greatly underestimating Israel.


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## Darklyre (Apr 8, 2011)

Derpie said:


> I'm doubtful.
> 
> The last such engagement was more than 20 years ago, with a trio of Arab nations greatly underestimating Israel.



The only Middle Eastern nations that could even begin to threaten Israel militarily would be Egypt and Iran, and Israel would handily curbstomp the both of them combined. Saudi Arabia has advanced tech but is absolutely incompetent at using it. Syria and Lebanon would be playgrounds for Israeli jets.

So yes, Israel could still thrash the entirety of the Middle East.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2011)

Darklyre said:


> The only Middle Eastern nations that could even begin to threaten Israel militarily would be Egypt and Iran, and Israel would handily curbstomp the both of them combined. Saudi Arabia has advanced tech but is absolutely incompetent at using it. Syria and Lebanon would be playgrounds for Israeli jets.
> 
> So yes, Israel could still thrash the entirety of the Middle East.



And if all else fails, Israel probably has a nuke or two lying around.


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## zuul (Apr 8, 2011)

Hamas being pile of shit as always.


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## butcher50 (Apr 8, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> Can you blame them ?



for being a bunch of primitive savages ?

nah.


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## Mael (Apr 8, 2011)

Derpie said:


> I doubt the Palestinians want to "a peaceful state" alongside Israel, and I know they don't want to integrate either, so the only option is to get Israel to capitulate to their one and only true demand, which is in itself totally unreasonable from an Israeli point of view.
> 
> Unrelated: Does anyone know why when I login, I can only see one post at a time while coasting through threads?



Then they'll die a slow death once the Middle East no longer becomes relevant.  I mean the Arab nations will lose a rallying cry like this eventually.


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## Wolfgang Grimmer (Apr 8, 2011)

What's a hamas?


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## Darklyre (Apr 8, 2011)

Kirihara said:


> What's a hamas?



It's sorta like hummus but with more bombs and less competence.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 8, 2011)

Funny I don't see White Tiger in here telling us about how its so horrible that they killed some kids, I guess he only shows up when the kid is Muslim and killed on mistake.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 8, 2011)

Hamas attacks on civilians continued today, with 4 rockets being fired at Ashkelon.

They were intercepted by Israel's Iron Dome system, and I only mention this because it was actually caught on video:


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## Mael (Apr 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Hamas attacks on civilians continued today, with 4 rockets being fired at Ashkelon.
> 
> They were intercepted by Israel's Iron Dome system, and I only mention this because it was actually caught on video:


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## Pilaf (Apr 8, 2011)

zuul said:


> Hamas being pile of shit as always.



To put this into its proper perspective, all this fucking ceaseless violence in the middle east is over some stupid, arid desert piece of ground where some prophet or another supposedly took a shit 1000 years ago, and people interpreted it as a sign from a god whose existence cannot be verified. Yes, that's hyperbole, but it's not that far from the truth. Imagine a world where people's ethics and values are based on principles of doing unto others as they'd want to be done unto them instead of slaughtering people over "holy land".


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## butcher50 (Apr 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Hamas attacks on civilians continued today, with 4 rockets being fired at Ashkelon.
> 
> They were intercepted by Israel's Iron Dome system, and I only mention this because it was actually caught on video:


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## Glued (Apr 8, 2011)

Poor guy, hope him and the bus driver will survive.


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## butcher50 (Apr 8, 2011)

what Hamas/Hizbolah/Palestinian-Arab supporters are gonna do when all of their options of taking pot-shots are israel are gonna be rendered ineffective ?


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## Ennoea (Apr 8, 2011)

Phew I thought Palestinian kids had been killed, just some Jews. Nothing to see here.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 8, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> what Hamas/Hizbolah/Palestinian-Arab supporters are gonna do when all of their options of taking pot-shots are israel are gonna be rendered ineffective ?



Israel's rocket defense system is a threat to their "balance of terror" option, i.e. launching small salvos in order to terrorize civilians while also avoiding a major IDF operation. Iron Dome can be rendered ineffective, but you'll need very large and continuous salvos of rockets concentrated in 1 area. This in turn will spark a major IDF operation, which is not what they want and they can not fight on such a scale for weeks on end.

3 Hamas members were killed for instance launching those 4 rockets at Ashkelon, and none of them hit the city. Even to Hamas that will probably be seen as a futile sacrifice.

Thus Iron Dome is a success in that it can protect major Israeli communities from the daily artillery barrages of 3-4 rockets that terrorized them for so many years following the Gaza withdrawal. However it can not stop every rocket and if the salvos are large enough it can be overwhelmed, but doing that will spark a major attack on Gaza. This is the Hamas conundrum now, and why they did stuff like blow up the school bus as sporadic rocket attacks won't cut it anymore.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2011)

The question is what's more expensive: The rockets or the rocket defense system?


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## Megaharrison (Apr 8, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> The question is what's more expensive: The rockets or the rocket defense system?



The interceptors are pricey at $40,000 a missile, however the manufacturer of the system Rafael is coming out with the Tamir-2 interceptor over the next few years which will cost about $12,000 per missile. It's a price similar to having a unit of fighter jets take off and fly around a few hours, which militaries do everyday. There's also the fact that Iron Dome has a cost-saving system where once it calculates the trajectories of incoming rockets it will only intercept those that will hit a populated area. For instance 4 Grads were fired today at Ashkelon, 3 were intercepted over the city and 1 hit an open field. 

And contrary to popular belief, the interceptors probably won't be used on Qassams/home-made rockets. The Pali's beyond Al Qaeda elements like Army of Islam don't really use Qassams anymore, they've upgraded to Grads. Hamas itself hasn't fired a Qassam since like 2008.

Lastly, keep in mind that Hamas can't simply launch 5 rockets a day anymore as a means of terrorizing people/draining IDF money, they've done that the last 2 days and have lost 10 people and if they do it another 2 they risk a major IDF incursion. They can only do this in small bursts every few weeks until reprisals become too big. Additionally, as Iron Dome is calculating the trajectory of the rockets it relays their launch point to overhead IDF UAV's that constantly monitor Gaza, allowing them to strike the rocket launching cell. This is why 2 Hamas terrorists were killed only a minute or so after launching the rockets at Ashkelon. This produces a human cost element for Hamas as well, beyond financial.

Taking all this into account, defending southern communities against sporadic salvos like that is worth the cost, imo.


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 8, 2011)

butcher50 said:


> for being a bunch of primitive savages ?
> 
> nah.



Of course you can't understand it. You're sitting comfortably in your house. No one took your homeland away. No empathy at all and you dare call other people savages ?
You sir, are the savage here.


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## Mael (Apr 8, 2011)

Elim's going for a high score of suckering others?


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## stream (Apr 8, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> The interceptors are pricey at $40,000 a missile, however the manufacturer of the system Rafael is coming out with the Tamir-2 interceptor over the next few years which will cost about $12,000 per missile.
> [...]
> Taking all this into account, defending southern communities against sporadic salvos like that is worth the cost, imo.



Here, you omit the initial cost of the detection system, and the maintenance of everything. I would be very surprised if the whole thing did not cost millions more per year than actual damages inflicted by rockets... Especially considering their low efficiency.

...All right, I admit this is a cost analysis that completely ignores the psychological support to the communities who feel they are being protected instead of just offered as bait to the rockets.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 8, 2011)

stream said:


> Here, you omit the initial cost of the detection system, and the maintenance of everything. I would be very surprised if the whole thing did not cost millions more per year than actual damages inflicted by rockets... Especially considering their low efficiency.



The detection used for the system is connected to the rocket warning system we've operated since 2001. The launcher is basically a 20-tube MLRS and requires negligible maintenance. The only real cost is in the interception missiles.



> ...All right, I admit this is a cost analysis that completely ignores the psychological support to the communities who feel they are being protected instead of just offered as bait to the rockets.



And yes we're placing the material and psychological well-being above material costs. The world continues to ignore these war crimes so we have to do something about it. After badgering us to leave Gaza and leave hundreds of our citizens to daily artillery bombardment, the UN should be paying for this system as it is.


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## -Dargor- (Apr 8, 2011)

Razgriez said:


> Israel does have the ability to beat them all into submission just look at the last engagement where all its neighbors tried to take out Israel. Oh that went down REAL well for them. After that they could carpet bomb Palestine all they want and the Arab nations would just go crying about it.



Israel trying to exterminate palestinians would be so lulzy, humanity at it's finest. 

We should really just have let them get melted into soaps a couple of decades ago, seing as they're trying to do the same thing to the people they stole "Israel" from.

Also, anyone with half a brain should know better than to try and argue in a megaharrison thread, it's always full of morons. It's like going to a GOP rally and screaming "GO OBAMA"


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 8, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> Israel trying to exterminate palestinians would be so lulzy, humanity at it's finest.
> 
> We should really just have let them get melted into soaps a couple of decades ago, seing as they're trying to do the same thing to the people they stole "Israel" from.
> 
> Also, anyone with half a brain should know better than to try and argue in a megaharrison thread, it's always full of morons. It's like going to a GOP rally and screaming "GO OBAMA"



I know it's difficult, because mega tends to have all the facts handy, which makes it impossible to argue in favor of Hamas and still look like a sane human being.


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## -Dargor- (Apr 8, 2011)

I know it's going to be a hard thing to get trough your silly little mind Sauf, but all Palestinians =/= Hamas.

As for the facts, all you need to shut him up is an history book.

Have a good day in your nice imaginary world


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## Coteaz (Apr 8, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> I know it's going to be a hard thing to get trough your silly little mind Sauf, but all Palestinians =/= Hamas.


Why aren't these innocent Palestinian saints protesting the terrible ideology and actions of Hamas?


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## Terra Branford (Apr 8, 2011)

I'm not surprised. Thank God none of them died from the bus strike.

So Ad-Dayah has been attacking/killing/whatnot since he was a child...? :/



> Hamas vowed vengeance against Israel in a statement Saturday, describing the strike as a crime and "serious escalation" of the recent violence, and vowed that Israel would "bear all the consequences." *The militant group also called on the U.S. to stop the flow of financial aid to Israel.*



So they could overrun Israeli, kill all the Jews regardless of gender and age, and finally have their "vengeance" for strikes, killing (etc) they caused by attacking Israeli.


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## Derpie (Apr 8, 2011)

Mael said:


> Then they'll die a slow death once the Middle East no longer becomes relevant.  I mean the Arab nations will lose a rallying cry like this eventually.



You truly think Palestinians, who like any other poor Arab population breed like rabbits, will die a "slow death" if and when the Middle East becomes less relevant? Put simply, that'll never happen. It is up to Israel to foment peace in the region at the risk of having go to war against overwhelming numbers sometime in the distant future. In the meantime however Hamas will continue its policy of lobbing missles into civilian zones.


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## hcheng02 (Apr 9, 2011)

Derpie said:


> You truly think Palestinians, who like any other poor Arab population breed like rabbits, will die a "slow death" if and when the Middle East becomes less relevant? Put simply, that'll never happen. It is up to Israel to foment peace in the region at the risk of having go to war against overwhelming numbers.



Israel has been beating the shit out of the Arabs despite facing overwhelming numbers literally since the day it was born. That kind of threat means nothing. Population growth doesn't mean shit if you don't have the resources or economy to provide for them. Once the oil runs out, the Arabs lose both their primary source of income - sans tourism - and their source of relevancy to the wider world. You think anybody would give a shit about what they say if it wasn't for oil? Israel will then be the only country there worth a damn since they are militarily strong, technologically advanced, and has a better human rights record.


----------



## Derpie (Apr 9, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Israel has been beating the shit out of the Arabs despite facing overwhelming numbers literally since the day it was born. That kind of threat means nothing.



In actuality, numbers are very important variable. As of right now, Arabs outnumber Israelis in the Middle East by about 57 times--and this isn't even counting the Arabs that present an interior risk inasmuch as they make up 20% of Israel's population. Also, most Arab nations are directly or indirectly controlled by the military, which guarantees a special focus on that branch of society in these evolving times.

The trio of Arab nations that engaged Israel twenty years ago--Syria, Jordan and Lebanon--were all similar in size to Israel, with significantly underdeveloped economies and undereducated populations in comparison. And while this is still true for some of the aforementioned, others have made notable progress. Jordan now boosts higher average scores in science and math than Israel and its number of researchers per million people is higher too. It is no longer the same backwards place it was 20 years ago. As well, Israel will very face duplicity by the likes of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, both of which will fund if not outright engage it in any regional conlfict. 



> Population growth doesn't mean shit if you don't have the resources or economy to provide for them.



This is a good point, but I beg to differ. An ocean of Arabs fighting against Israel would spell doom for it in comtemporary times minus the use of nuclear weapons, unless you think Israel can negate this sort of advantage a second time around. 



> Once the oil runs out, the Arabs lose both their primary source of income - sans tourism - and their source of relevancy to the wider world. You think anybody would give a shit about what they say if it wasn't for oil? Israel will then be the only country there worth a damn since they are militarily strong, technologically advanced, and has a better human rights record.



I can't envision the day when Arabs run out of oil, so this isn't a worthwhile scenario to look towards. Israel is a population of 7.5 million, many of whom are not even ethnic Jews; fighting forever against insurmountable odds is not sustainable..and I think the Israelis know this.


----------



## hcheng02 (Apr 9, 2011)

Derpie said:


> In actuality, numbers are very important variable. As of right now, Arabs outnumber Israelis in the Middle East by about 57 times--and this isn't even counting the Arabs that present an interior risk inasmuch as they make up 20% of Israel's population. Also, most Arab nations are directly or indirectly controlled by the military, which guarantees a special focus on that branch of society.



The Arabs have always outnumbered Israel. They also used to outgun the Israelis too since the USSR would give military tech that was more advanced than what the IDF had and in greater quantities for free. And in every war that the Arabs fought against the Israelis, the Jews have won decisively. The Israelis killed more soldiers, captured more land, and destroyed more military equipment. If the Arabs could not win back when they outnumbered, outgunned, and were backed by one of the strongest superpowers of the day what makes you think that they can do that now that Israel has nukes, outguns them, has the support of the strongest superpower on the planet, whereas the Arabs have no backers?



> The trio of Arab nations that engaged Israel twenty years ago--Syria, Jordan and Lebanon--were all similar in size to Israel, with significantly underdeveloped economies and undereducated populations. And while this is still true for some of the aforementioned, others have made notable progress. Jordan now boosts has higher average scores in science and math than Israel and its number of researchers per million people is higher too. It is no longer the same backwards place it was 20 years ago.



In both civilian and military terms, Israel far outstrips the Arabs. Sure, the Arabs are not as backwards as it was before, but the problem is that Israel has progressed further as well. 



> This is a good point, but I beg to differ. An ocean of Arabs fighting against Israel would spell doom for it in comtemporary times minus the use of nuclear weapons, unless you think Israel can negate this sort of advantage a second time around.



Uh, yes I do. Israel already has a decisive advantage in terms of military tech and training. Human wave tactics aren't going to mean much against cluster bombs and massive artillery bombardment. 



> I can't envision the day when Arabs run out of oil, so this isn't a worthwhile scenario to look towards.



Its going to happen sooner or later, oil won't last forever. And when it runs out, Arab influence is finished.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 9, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> I know it's going to be a hard thing to get trough your silly little mind Sauf, but all Palestinians =/= Hamas.



But they did vote for Hamas and they don't seem to be planning a large scale resistance against Hamas. If you support terrorism, you can't complain when shit comes flying back in your face.



> As for the facts, all you need to shut him up is an history book.



Nobody cares about fucking history. We're living in the present and we don't make policies based on what used to be. Germany lost a lot of land in wars of aggression and so did the Palestinians. We got over it, the Palis don't want to.



> Have a good day in your nice imaginary world



You mean the present? It's such a horrible thing to not live in the past, I know.


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## Darklyre (Apr 9, 2011)

Derpie said:


> In actuality, numbers are very important variable. As of right now, Arabs outnumber Israelis in the Middle East by about 57 times--and this isn't even counting the Arabs that present an interior risk inasmuch as they make up 20% of Israel's population. Also, most Arab nations are directly or indirectly controlled by the military, which guarantees a special focus on that branch of society in these evolving times.
> 
> The trio of Arab nations that engaged Israel twenty years ago--Syria, Jordan and Lebanon--were all similar in size to Israel, with significantly underdeveloped economies and undereducated populations in comparison. And while this is still true for some of the aforementioned, others have made notable progress. Jordan now boosts higher average scores in science and math than Israel and its number of researchers per million people is higher too. It is no longer the same backwards place it was 20 years ago. As well, Israel will very face duplicity by the likes of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, both of which will fund if not outright engage it in any regional conlfict.
> 
> ...



Numbers generally don't mean a damned thing in modern war. Force multipliers like air support make overall numbers a bit irrelevant.

The Arabs have always had numbers over the Israelis. The Israelis have always had competence over the Arabs. The Israelis have always won.


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## Raiden (Apr 9, 2011)

How do you get rid of Hamas?


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## Toby (Apr 9, 2011)

Raiden said:


> How do you get rid of Hamas?



Bullets.

If you're not talking about military means, they could try to bankrupt them. I honestly think that would cut the Hamas government to pieces since their only difference from Fatah is that they will not exclude violence as an absolute means to winning against Israel. If they can't fund their war, they will lose to a competing party. Either that or Fatah's controlled West Bank would look increasingly more attractive and people would support Fatah again. Preferences change when you are seven meals away from anarchy.

Hamas gets a lot of its revenue from its smuggling tunnels, and probably a lot of foreign support in monetary aid. We know now that destroying these tunnels is almost impossible because there are so many of them and they are expensive to destroy. Second, cutting foreign aid off would require cooperation from Arab countries in the Middle Eastern Financial Action Task Force, and they simply will not monitor these funds. Neither Iran, the chief suspect funder for Hamas, or Israel for that matter, have joined FATF. (Israel is recognized as a tax haven, and what have you.) However Hamas must be storing its money somewhere and if those accounts could be seized well, it would change a lot. Hamas would be forced to fight a war of attrition. Contrary to popular opinion, Hamas is not fighting with reducing resources right now. It gets more resources every year - and more states are joining them in recognizing the Palestinian state's sovereignty.

If some of you have doubts about this FATF approach, then look at Egypt and Libya now. In Egypt nobody moved to seize Mubarak's assets, and he moved his wealth with him to the UAE plus he got extradition for no charge at all. Gaddafi's funds on the other hand were seized immediately, forcing him to rely on gold in order to buy arms supplies.  But if someone seized the Libyan central bank, they might get his caches in time to prevent disaster. Ok, offtopic.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 9, 2011)

Que laughtrack.




Raiden said:


> How do you get rid of Hamas?



Cut off their smuggling routes and destroy them to a point where their attacks will be negligible. The Al Aqsa and Tanzim got this same treatment back in the 2nd Intifada. Unfortunately we're going to have to occupy Rafah some day, and perhaps consider General Dan Harel's plan to build a canal along the Philadelphi Corridor. I only hope our government recognizes this before more people on both sides have to suffer these daily exchanges.



			
				derpie said:
			
		

> In actuality, numbers are very important variable. As of right now, Arabs outnumber Israelis in the Middle East by about 57 times



Comparing total populations of both sides is fairly irrelevant, they never deployed such numbers and never will. 



> -and this isn't even counting the Arabs that present an interior risk inasmuch as they make up 20% of Israel's population.



The Bedouins and Druze will remain loyal at the very least, and even the disloyal Arabs prefer Israeli citizenship over Palestinian/Gypo/Jordanian/what have you according to a series of polls.



> Also, most Arab nations are directly or indirectly controlled by the military, which guarantees a special focus on that branch of society in these evolving times.



And Israel is more militarized as a society then any Arab country despite being a democracy, even the military dictatorships. Having grown up there I can assure you on that fact.



> The trio of Arab nations that engaged Israel twenty years ago--Syria, Jordan and Lebanon--were all similar in size to Israel, with significantly underdeveloped economies and undereducated populations in comparison. And while this is still true for some of the aforementioned, others have made notable progress. Jordan now boosts higher average scores in science and math than Israel and its number of researchers per million people is higher too. It is no longer the same backwards place it was 20 years ago. As well, Israel will very face duplicity by the likes of Turkey and Saudi Arabia, both of which will fund if not outright engage it in any regional conlfict.



I don't know which war you're referring to, we didn't fight that trio in 1991 or ever for that matter. Perhaps you mean the 1982 War, where Jordan didn't have any part.

And Jordan/Syria especially still have abject poverty and not nearly as productive a society scientifically as Israel, . Not that this "number of researchers" statistic is even that relevant for military affairs nor has it ever been, the Arabs don't make their own weapons and never have.



> This is a good point, but I beg to differ. An ocean of Arabs fighting against Israel would spell doom for it in comtemporary times minus the use of nuclear weapons, unless you think Israel can negate this sort of advantage a second time around.



You grossly overestimate the use of numbers in modern warfare, the Iraqi army outnumbered the U.S. significantly in 2003 and was easily pushed aside and human wave attacks did little for the Iranians in their war with Iraq. There are other reasons why a modern Arab-Israeli conflict on multiple fronts would be devastating for both sides, but this "ocean of Arabs" theory isn't one of them.



> I can't envision the day when Arabs run out of oil, so this isn't a worthwhile scenario to look towards. Israel is a population of 7.5 million, many of whom are not even ethnic Jews; fighting forever against insurmountable odds is not sustainable..and I think the Israelis know this.



We'll fight as long as we have to, nothing indicates that modern Israel is currently facing destruction anyway. But even if we're going to finally be destroyed we're going to take the entire region down with us.


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## Shinigami Perv (Apr 9, 2011)

> ISRAELI planes and tanks hammered Gaza, killing nine people, in the strip's deadliest day for two years.
> 
> A truce declared by Palestinian armed groups unravelled even before it could take hold as they fired dozens of mortar rounds and rockets into southern Israel.
> 
> ...





Hmm... more dead civilians. 

Perfect timing for Assad.  Israel is unwittingly helping him in an escalation he might have engineered to save his ass from his own people.


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## Madchester (Apr 9, 2011)

what in the world is an "ethnic jew"


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## Megaharrison (Apr 9, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Hmm... more dead civilians.
> 
> Perfect timing for Assad.  Israel is unwittingly helping him in an escalation he might have engineered to save his ass from his own people.



We have no choice. This idea that we allow our population to come under daily artillery bombardment so we can play political games with dictators is unacceptable. Even if Assad is gone it won't effect Hamas all that much, a strange little contradiction is Hamas is now more dependent on Iran and Hezbollah on Syria.

But basically, our politicians can't simply allow our civilians to be attacked without consequences to the terrorists. How would they explain that? "Oh, well it will make Assad, who is probably not even going to be overthrown anyway, look worse". Right, that would be unacceptable by the constituency in any democracy.

Revolts in Syria or not the current situation has shown we'll need another Cast Leader now, so we can have another few years of peace.


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## Madchester (Apr 9, 2011)

are you an ethnic jew


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## Emasculation Storm (Apr 9, 2011)

> By yesterday afternoon, it had killed 14 Gazans - including seven civilians, among them a 10-year-old boy, five Hamas militants and one policeman.



Not enough imo.


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## hcheng02 (Apr 9, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Hmm... more dead civilians.
> 
> Perfect timing for Assad.  Israel is unwittingly helping him in an escalation he might have engineered to save his ass from his own people.



The Arab spring has shown that if the people really want to rebel than they will do so regardless of how much the leaders blame Israel. It has also shown that if the leaders are ruthless enough and the rebels incompetent enough than no outside interference will solve the problem for them. 



Madchester said:


> what in the world is an "ethnic jew"



An ethnic Jew is a person who is born in a Jewish family and generally identifies himself with Jewish values and culture even if they do not follow Judaism.


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## Perseverance (Apr 9, 2011)

Cafe' lmao, you'll have pro palastinian vs. pro Isreal topics every day....


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## Shinigami Perv (Apr 9, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> Revolts in Syria or not the current situation has shown we'll need another Cast Leader now, so we can have another few years of peace.



Why not just sign a peace treaty? 

Rather than peace, you suggest a Cast Lead. Are you planning on performing a Cast Lead every 3 years after rocket fire becomes intolerable? Is that a better alternative than a peace treaty? 

Don't bother responding with the fallacy that giving them a state will result in more terror. That's just a justification to continue a situation that is already resulting in violence.

A real solution is one that does not involve a military operation. This has to be political or it will just continue forever. No number of bullets and bombs is going to make this situation peaceful.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 9, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Why not just sign a peace treaty?



Not possible. If you think Hamas or other Iranian proxy's are interested in a real peace deal then you're enormously naive. They've stated they're against such things and their political platform more than proves it.



> Rather than peace, you suggest a Cast Lead. Are you planning on performing a Cast Lead every 3 years after rocket fire becomes intolerable? Is that a better alternative than a peace treaty?



It's the best alternative that exists, the Gaza withdrawal demonstrated that quite well. Right now a Cast Lead every 3 years is the best option that exists, who knows perhaps after a while they'll get the picture and start caring about themselves more then tormenting kids in Sderot.

The Egyptian (until 2011 at least)/Jordan peace treaties worked because the leadership was serious about peace and they had a strong centralized government to enforce it. The Palestinians lack both.



> Don't bother responding with the fallacy that giving them a state will result in more terror. That's just a justification to continue a situation that is already resulting in violence.



How is it a fallacy? Gaza sure proved it true. The Palestinians can't even stop killing each other, nevermind us. At the very least, "peace" talks will be useless until the Palestinians learn to run themselves at a level better than Somalia.



> A real solution is one that does not involve a military operation. This has to be political or it will just continue forever. No number of bullets and bombs is going to make this situation peaceful.



There's no political solution right now though, what can we offer them? No settlements? Right, except Hamas doesn't really care about settlements.

Again, you have to think about what realistic options we have. Settlement freezes or some kind of deal with Fatah so the Europeans can get their nobel prizes? Do you really think that will stop the rockets from Gaza? Of course not. Moreover these little 6 months ceasefires with Hamas are garbage, at least with the de facto ceasefires we can defend ourselves when we have to.


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## Terra Branford (Apr 10, 2011)

@posted article:

How can you deny not knowing children would be in a school buss? 



Shinigami Perv said:


> Why not just sign a peace treaty?



A peace treaty will never happen. If it would work, it would have been done.


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## kakashi4ever (Apr 10, 2011)

What they don't show on tv
Israeli snipers deliberately target Palestinian children to take advantage of the ripple effect it has on the wider community. It is an act of terror meant to devastate the wider community. In a family group walking around their neighbourhood a zionist sniper will target the youngest of the group in the head.

Your army is coward because all his targer is create vilonce and hates


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## sadated_peon (Apr 10, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> What they don't show on tv
> Israeli snipers deliberately target Palestinian children to take advantage of the ripple effect it has on the wider community. It is an act of terror meant to devastate the wider community. In a family group walking around their neighbourhood a zionist sniper will target the youngest of the group in the head.
> 
> Your army is coward because all his targer is create vilonce and hates


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## Sanity Check (Apr 10, 2011)

Its a circular chain of events?


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## Arishem (Apr 10, 2011)

1mmortal 1tachi said:


> Its a circular chain of events?


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vX07j9SDFcc[/YOUTUBE]


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## Terra Branford (Apr 10, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> What they don't show on tv
> Israeli snipers deliberately target Palestinian children to take advantage of the ripple effect it has on the wider community. It is an act of terror meant to devastate the wider community. In a family group walking around their neighbourhood a zionist sniper will target the youngest of the group in the head.
> 
> Your army is coward because all his targer is create vilonce and hates



I'm pretty sure any TV channel tries to paint Israeli as the demons despite showing what the Palestinians have done and continue to do -- Knowingly! -- against Israelis and even their children.

And I'm not seeing any proof. :/


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## makeoutparadise (Apr 10, 2011)

Dick move hamas


----------



## kakashi4ever (Apr 10, 2011)




----------



## NanoHaxial (Apr 10, 2011)

Alison Weir is a run-of-the-mill Jews-are-evil conspiracy nutjob.

She likes to rattle off her theories about how Jews control the media, politicians, and the mere existence of Israel is tantamount to occupation of Palestine.

The idea that she is in anyhow even remotely unbiased or reliable as a source of information on the Israel-Palestine conflict is laughable.


----------



## Yachiru (Apr 10, 2011)

As many people pointed out, the Palestinians are not interested in real peace. Therefore, annihilate them. Nobody will ever shed a tear over those who use women and children as human shields.

As cruel and anti-human as it may sound, this is reality. Palestinians don't want peace.


----------



## WakaFlocka (Apr 10, 2011)

Yeah lets kill an entire group of people, thats productive.


----------



## Yachiru (Apr 10, 2011)

WakaFlocka said:


> Yeah lets kill an entire group of people, thats productive.



More productive than letting them continue their mindless hate crimes and hypocrisy.


----------



## Edward Newgate (Apr 10, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


>


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## Skywalker (Apr 10, 2011)

School buses? Really?


----------



## sadated_peon (Apr 10, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


>


----------



## Hand Banana (Apr 10, 2011)

sadated_peon said:


> I ask for evidence, not some unsourced blog.



Sounds like to me you will only accept evidence you personally deem worthy. Now if this video was posted on a site you deemed creditable, would you have accepted it?


----------



## kakashi4ever (Apr 10, 2011)

Edward Newgate said:


> Looks credible to me
> 
> I mean, the Palestinians would never put these kids to sleep or anything like that to decieve the world.





sadated_peon said:


> I ask for evidence, not some unsourced blog.


----------



## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 10, 2011)

Then don't expect us to either.


----------



## Butt Hole lol (Apr 10, 2011)

lol what a waste of a perfectly good missile.


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## Skill Hunter (Apr 10, 2011)

WakaFlocka said:


> Yeah lets kill an entire group of people, thats productive.



Its called "killing the cancer before it spreads".

Or you could just lock them all up.


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## kakashi4ever (Apr 10, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Then don't expect us to either.



Are you blind or something ?? Who was talking to you ??


----------



## sadated_peon (Apr 10, 2011)

Hand Banana said:


> Sounds like to me you will only accept evidence you personally deem worthy. Now if this video was posted on a site you deemed creditable, would you have accepted it?



So, a claim that Israel snipers are deliberately shooting palestianian children in the head is PROVED by a video of Palestian children who were NOT shot in the head without any indication of WHO shot them. 

How insightfull of you. 

@kakashi4ever, 
Wow, I thought it was going to take a bit longer before you conceded your claims were full of shit.


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## kakashi4ever (Apr 11, 2011)

Whoes talking!! 
how funny when pigot people think they're always right.
Ignorance


----------



## Terra Branford (Apr 11, 2011)

Kakashi, Israeli soldiers or professional snipers, have not been targeting children. If they had been, where is the *reliable* proof? What could Israeli soldiers/snipers POSSIBLY gain from killing children?

The only instances where Palestine children are/were killed, is by accident as Israeli tries to defend itself against the many Arab countries (Palestine, Egypt, Iran...) that despise its existence.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 11, 2011)

According to Richard Goldstone, author of the Goldstone Report, Israel does not intentionally target civilians as it is so this sniper BS is even more idiotic.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Are you blind or something ?? Who was talking to you ??


Sorry, when I see bullshit I just have to say something.


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## Outlandish (Apr 11, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Sorry, when I see bullshit I just have to say something.



The gospel according to CTK, right ?

I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 11, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> The gospel according to CTK, right ?
> 
> I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.



Mostly with facts.


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## sadated_peon (Apr 11, 2011)

kakashi4ever said:


> Whoes talking!!
> how funny when pigot people think they're always right.
> Ignorance


I'm talking...

You have yet to provide any evidence for your claims, and what you have posted contradicts your claims. 

When pushed on this you responded that you don't care, that's giving up the argument.


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## Mael (Apr 11, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> The gospel according to CTK, right ?
> 
> I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.



Palis didn't do themselves any favors.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 11, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.



It wasn't what I did, it was what you people did. Islamism, Homophobia, Neo-Nazism, Holocaust denial, the advocation of war crimes, these are the hallmarks of the dedicated Israel bitchers in the cafe. Your craziness makes more rational individuals who try to criticize Israel feel alienated, Jello most infamously. It's why I try to goad you people on so much. 

In any regard it's very typical you're blaming me for your own mistakes.

Not being able to argue your way out of a paper bag doesn't help either


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## stream (Apr 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> According to Richard Goldstone, author of the Goldstone Report, Israel does not intentionally target civilians as it is so this sniper BS is even more idiotic.



Hmmm... Let's say Goldstone _changed his mind_ quite recently about the targeting of civilians, but did not change his mind about the other criticism of Israel contained in the report. And the other authors of the report did not change their minds.

That said, I am quite willing to believe that Israel does not intentionally target civilians _by policy_. Let's say they do not take much precautions against collateral damage. How much precaution they should take is essentially a matter of opinion.

It is also probable that individual soldiers intentionally target civilians from time to time, because there are creeps who enjoy shooting at unarmed people in every army in the world. It is not clear whether these soldiers are punished appropriately.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> Hmmm... Let's say Goldstone _changed his mind_ quite recently about the targeting of civilians, but did not change his mind about the other criticism of Israel contained in the report. And the other authors of the report did not change their minds.
> 
> That said, I am quite willing to believe that Israel does not intentionally target civilians _by policy_. Let's say they do not take much precautions against collateral damage. How much precaution they should take is essentially a matter of opinion.
> 
> It is also probable that individual soldiers intentionally target civilians from time to time, because there are creeps who enjoy shooting at unarmed people in every army in the world. It is not clear whether these soldiers are punished appropriately.



And why did he change his mind? Because he was too lazy to research the facts the first time around. He said that if Israel had cooperated more with him, the report wouldn't have been so one-sided. That clearly tells us that he didn't bother investigating both sides of the issue.


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## stream (Apr 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> And why did he change his mind? Because he was too lazy to research the facts the first time around. He said that if Israel had cooperated more with him, the report wouldn't have been so one-sided. That clearly tells us that he didn't bother investigating both sides of the issue.



Hang on, you have no idea how much he worked on it and how much cooperation he got from Israel. The fact itself that he recanted shows his aim was not to criticize Israel. If he didn't bother at the time, when it was his job, why would he bother now? It would have been far easier for him to let the report stand as it is.

You have to admit the possibility that somebody can in good faith obtain a result that you don't like.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> Hang on, you have no idea how much he worked on it and how much cooperation he got from Israel. The fact itself that he recanted shows his aim was not to criticize Israel. If he didn't bother at the time, when it was his job, why would he bother now? It would have been far easier for him to let the report stand as it is.
> 
> You have to admit the possibility that somebody can in good faith obtain a result that you don't like.



It's not about whether or not I like the results, it's about the results being simply wrong, which Goldstone admitted. Whatever Israels reason for not cooperating to the degree which Goldstone wanted, you can't make a report based on one side of the war, especially not if the UN ordered you to make the report.

"In good faith" really says it all. A proper report doesn't require faith, only evidence.


----------



## Yachiru (Apr 11, 2011)

As a matter of fact, the Palis didn't do themselves any favours and doing hate crimes against Israel makes matters worse. Israel does know what in the world it has to deal with; a bunch of nutjobs that call for Israel's annihilation and have no interest in peace whatsoever. 

It's the *Palestinians* targetting children and even use their own as human shields. And now they claim Israel kills their people. What a bunch of hypocrites 

If a group in a school causes extreme ruckus, they're expelled. If someone robs a bank, he is jailed (after a proper trial ofc). If someone brutally kills a person, he is executed. 

Why can't Israel do the same with those people who do hate crimes against Israel all the time and even go as far as calling for its annihilation?


----------



## stream (Apr 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> Whatever Israels reason for not cooperating to the degree which Goldstone wanted, you can't make a report based on one side of the war, especially not if the UN ordered you to make the report.


So what do you suggest he should have written, considering he was getting no cooperation? "The Israeli army killed a whole lot of civilians, they refuse to say anything on the subject, but we have to assume they had a good reason because they are nice guys?" Or "Let us wait, maybe they will give us an explanation two years from now?"

If the evidence shows you committed a crime, and you refuse to defend yourself, of course you will be declared guilty. Even if actually you acted in self-defense. Even if actually you did not do it.


----------



## Saufsoldat (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> So what do you suggest he should have written, considering he was getting no cooperation? "The Israeli army killed a whole lot of civilians, they refuse to say anything on the subject, but we have to assume they had a good reason because they are nice guys?" Or "Let us wait, maybe they will give us an explanation two years from now?"
> 
> If the evidence shows you committed a crime, and you refuse to defend yourself, of course you will be declared guilty. Even if actually you acted in self-defense. Even if actually you did not do it.



He should only report what he can prove (hint: he didn't) and make it clear when his conclusions were based on lousy evidence (didn't do that either). There was clear anti-Israel that even someone who just has one side of the story should be able to filter out.

Shit like calling roof knocking psychological warfare is a disgrace to the UN, no matter how many sides of the story you hear.


----------



## Megaharrison (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> So what do you suggest he should have written, considering he was getting no cooperation? "The Israeli army killed a whole lot of civilians, they refuse to say anything on the subject, but we have to assume they had a good reason because they are nice guys?" Or "Let us wait, maybe they will give us an explanation two years from now?"
> 
> If the evidence shows you committed a crime, and you refuse to defend yourself, of course you will be declared guilty. Even if actually you acted in self-defense. Even if actually you did not do it.



His problem was he concluded we targeted civilians because we didn't offer him evidence we didn't. It's a guilty until proven innocence mindset that does not coincide with progressive Western law, which forms the basis of International Law.

He has since said that "knowing what he does now", that Israel did not intentionally target civilians in Cast Lead. It shows how the entire Report is a sham, as it makes assumptions.


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## stream (Apr 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> He should only report what he can prove (hint: he didn't) and make it clear when his conclusions were based on lousy evidence (didn't do that either).



Sorry, but it is completely absurd to ask for "proof". In a war zone, there is nothing you can prove. Even when not in a war zone, there is no way you can prove intent. Practically the only way to "prove" war crimes would be for the criminal to admit it openly. You shoot someone in the street? Maybe you "thought" he had a gun and was going to kill you, but you will have to defend yourself and establish it at the trial.
(*snipped, that was unnecessary*) 

There is nothing lousy about the evidence that Israel had shelled a house containing only civilians, and it did in fact happen. Faced with that evidence, it was on Israel that resided the burden of proof that they did not mean to do it.



Megaharrison said:


> His problem was he concluded we targeted civilians because we didn't offer him evidence we didn't. It's a guilty until proven innocence mindset that does not coincide with progressive Western law, which forms the basis of International Law.



I'm sorry, you might think that people are only ever convicted by Western tribunals on incontrovertible proof, but that is simply not the case. Again, if somebody attacks you in the street and you shoot them in self-defense, you _are_ going to trial, and it is not the prosecutor who has to prove that you were not in self-defense. _You_ have to defend yourself, and make a credible case that you were in self-defense. Otherwise, you are going to jail.


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## Mael (Apr 11, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> His problem was he concluded we targeted civilians because we didn't offer him evidence we didn't. It's a guilty until proven innocence mindset that does not coincide with progressive Western law, which forms the basis of International Law.
> 
> He has since said that "knowing what he does now", that Israel did not intentionally target civilians in Cast Lead. It shows how the entire Report is a sham, as it makes assumptions.



Don't tell the Arab/Iranian community that...pretty dedicated to the scapegoating.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> The gospel according to CTK, right ?
> 
> *I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.*


Blame the Jews, I guess I shouldn't expect better from you. 

Look don't act as if everyone in here feels like this because of Mega, I know its hard but see some of us can see logic and its hard to feel like a religious group is oppressed when they fire missiles at buses and rush into the UN and murder up a bunch of people who stick up for them or when they use their own people as shields or when they treat women like slaves who's very bodies are sinful.


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## Shinigami Perv (Apr 11, 2011)

stream is right. There will always be plausible denial in a war zone. Anyone could be a threat in any situation.



Outlandish said:


> The gospel according to CTK, right ?
> 
> I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.



Only 15% of the US public support the Palestinians. Israel supporters outnumber Palestinian supporters by over 4 to 1 in this country, which is about 4 out of every 5 who have an opinion on the issue, about the same % on this forum give or take. 

It's not something that is out of the ordinary. The forum mirrors US society.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> Sorry, but it is completely absurd to ask for "proof". In a war zone, there is nothing you can prove. Even when not in a war zone, there is no way you can prove intent. Practically the only way to "prove" war crimes would be for the criminal to admit it openly. You shoot someone in the street? Maybe you "thought" he had a gun and was going to kill you, but you will have to defend yourself and establish it at the trial.
> (*snipped, that was unnecessary*)



That's complete garbage. There is of course evidence for war crimes. From the wounds of a civilian victim you can easily deduce whether or not he was deliberately targeted. Then there's the ammunition and the tactics used. You have the overall number of civilian victims vs. enemy combatants, you know Hamas tries its best to maximize the civilian casualties. So many things you could find if only you looked. Goldstone didn't look.



> There is nothing lousy about the evidence that Israel had shelled a house containing only civilians, and it did in fact happen. Faced with that evidence, it was on Israel that resided the burden of proof that they did not mean to do it.



When did I say all his evidence was lousy? If that was his entire report, I would have no problem with it.


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## stream (Apr 11, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> That's complete garbage. There is of course evidence for war crimes. From the wounds of a civilian victim you can easily deduce whether or not he was deliberately targeted.


Huh? After a house is shelled, you find different wounds on civilian victims that were inside the house, depending on whether or not the civilian was deliberately targeted?

Once again: Considering the number of civilians killed, the burden was on Israel to defend its actions.



Saufsoldat said:


> you know Hamas tries its best to maximize the civilian casualties. So many things you could find if only you looked. Goldstone didn't look.


Of course Hamas does, and the report also criticized Hamas for their crimes. Goldstone himself has praised Israel for acting upon the findings of the report, e.g. the use of phosphorus, and has blamed Hamas for doing absolutely nothing.


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## -Dargor- (Apr 11, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> stream is right. There will always be plausible denial in a war zone. Anyone could be a threat in any situation.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



And that's why I usually avoid these threads.

On another note, the US (and the world in general) are also known to be filled mostly with ignorant cunts, which reflects on these boards as well 

But props to you for trying to reason with them regardless shini


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## hcheng02 (Apr 11, 2011)

stream said:


> Huh? After a house is shelled, you find different wounds on civilian victims that were inside the house, depending on whether or not the civilian was deliberately targeted?
> 
> Once again: Considering the number of civilians killed, the burden was on Israel to defend its actions.



There are a whole bunch of problems with the Goldstone Report, which I've made a thread about here.


The thing is that if you actually take an objective look at the measures the IDF does to decrease civilian casualties, it shows that they clearly do not kill civilians intentionally. If they just wanted to inflict maximum carnage they could have just immediately shell every house in their way. However, the IDF actually performs an assorted number of actions to get civilians to leave. They drop fliers. Civilians who don't leave are then actually individually called in their houses. Those who still don't leave get roof knocking to scare them away. All this stuff takes time, effort, and money. Frankly, its simply easier to carpet bomb the area and kill them all. It would also massively cause more casualties too. Look at the Syrian Hama Massacre. 



> Of course Hamas does, and the report also criticized Hamas for their crimes. Goldstone himself has praised Israel for acting upon the findings of the report, e.g. the use of phosphorus, and has blamed Hamas for doing absolutely nothing.



Goldstone only briefly mentioned Hamas as political cover before letting rip on the IDF. The fact that he uses Hamas POV as proof of guilt rather than giving the IDF the benefit of the doubt shows this. Assuming guilt on one side from the outset shows bias. Goldstone knew what he was doing, he just didn't care because he wanted to advance his career and he knew sticking it to Israel would be the easy way.


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## Coteaz (Apr 11, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> On another note, the US (and the world in general) are also known to be filled mostly with ignorant cunts, which reflects on these boards as well
> 
> But props to you for trying to reason with them regardless shini


So ignorant = people you disagree with.

Thanks for clarifying that.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 11, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> So ignorant = people you disagree with.
> 
> Thanks for clarifying that.


The majority of us are ignorant see because we're not willing to _*ignore*_ Hamas's many, obvious flaws and champion them as the good guys.


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## Terra Branford (Apr 11, 2011)

Outlandish said:


> The gospel according to CTK, right ?
> 
> I dunno how mega turned everyone here into a Israeli fan boy.


Mega didn't do anything. I think for myself and come to my own opinions on matters. 

Would you rather us to be bigoted anti-Israelis (and Anti-Semite) instead? Turned by, perhaps, you?

It figures you would be upset to see people defending Israeli that has only been defending itself _against_ terrorism.



> Only 15% of the US public support the Palestinians. Israel supporters outnumber Palestinian supporters by over 4 to 1 in this country, which is about 4 out of every 5 who have an opinion on the issue, about the same % on this forum give or take.


So? 



			
				Cardboard Tube Knight said:
			
		

> Blame the Jews, I guess I shouldn't expect better from you.
> 
> Look don't act as if everyone in here feels like this because of Mega, I know its hard but see some of us can see logic and its hard to feel like a religious group is oppressed when they fire missiles at buses and rush into the UN and murder up a bunch of people who stick up for them or when they use their own people as shields or when they treat women like slaves who's very bodies are sinful.


This.


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## Mael (Apr 11, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> And that's why I usually avoid these threads.
> 
> On another note, the US (and the world in general) are also known to be filled mostly with ignorant cunts, which reflects on these boards as well
> 
> But props to you for trying to reason with them regardless shini



This is the utterly nonsensical Quebecois who thinks it's cool to picspam a world map with China erased from it. 

And we're the ignorant ones?


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## Shinigami Perv (Apr 11, 2011)

-Dargor- said:


> And that's why I usually avoid these threads.
> 
> On another note, the US (and the world in general) are also known to be filled mostly with ignorant cunts, which reflects on these boards as well
> 
> But props to you for trying to reason with them regardless shini



Unfortunately, there is a strong plurality of people in this country who accept Fox News as news. Or religious doctrine as scientific fact. 

More people actually believe in creationism in the USA than evolution. We are unfortunately not a country of critical or deep thinkers. It is shameful, really.


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## Terra Branford (Apr 11, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> More people actually believe in creationism in the USA than evolution. We are unfortunately not a country of critical or deep thinkers. It is shameful, really.



Yes because the logical, deep thought out solution is to listen to the Anti-Israelis and destroy Israeli. Yes, its perfect! Why hadn't I or others, thought of it before? We could allow the Palestinians, Iranians, Pakistanis or even the Egyptians to burn Israeli to the ground, which they have basically been doing anyway.

It sounds like the most logical answer, that I must say has been _well_ thought out. Its a shame I hadn't thought of this heinous, anti-Semite (logical) answer before now. No no, its a shame that I or anyone else would have ever thought that it was right to defend Israeli against Terrorists or sickass, blood lusting people.


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## Zabuzalives (Apr 13, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Unfortunately, there is a strong plurality of people in this country who accept Fox News as news. Or religious doctrine as scientific fact.
> 
> More people actually believe in creationism in the USA than evolution. We are unfortunately not a country of critical or deep thinkers. It is shameful, really.



Dont act Like The nf posters on the Isra?l debate are compromised of the american rightwing? 

And to Dargor, The hypocrisy, hate, and idiocy of the average anti-Isra?li on this forum did far more to turn people. That and simply the facts.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Unfortunately, there is a strong plurality of people in this country who accept Fox News as news. Or religious doctrine as scientific fact.
> 
> More people actually believe in creationism in the USA than evolution. We are unfortunately not a country of critical or deep thinkers. It is shameful, really.


Actually whats more shameful is 90% of what comes out of you. 

You sit here and assume that if everyone doesn't agree with your BS line of thought that they're ignorant and illogical when you ignore most of the facts and just take a blame the West mentality.


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## Zabuzalives (Apr 13, 2011)

The good thing about leftist apologists is that They are generally too effeminate and inherently cowardly to have much influence when it really comes down to a brawl. 

So far for that Gaza no fly zone!


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 13, 2011)

^ Way to run away from the argument. Do tell, how do they prove you right ?


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## LouDAgreat (Apr 13, 2011)

Shinigami Perv deleted his post. Guess he realized it wasn't the smartest thing to post.


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## Shinigami Perv (Apr 13, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> ^ Way to run away from the argument. Do tell, how do they prove you right ?



Must resist the urge to troll. 

It's off-topic anyway.



LouDAgreat said:


> Shinigami Perv deleted his post. Guess he realized it wasn't the smartest thing to post.



Herp derp


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 13, 2011)

Shinigami Perv said:


> Must resist the urge to troll.
> 
> It's off-topic anyway.
> 
> ...



The whole thread is OT. Humor me


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> ^ Way to run away from the argument. Do tell, how do they prove you right ?


Ooo what did he post, it must have been really bad if he deleted it


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## Elim Rawne (Apr 13, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Ooo what did he post, it must have been really bad if he deleted it



It was along the lines of " The last four posters prove my point"


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 13, 2011)

Elim Rawne said:


> It was along the lines of " The last four posters prove my point"


Yeah because I: 

1. Don't believe in Creationism 
2. Don't make Israel out to be totally in the right and free from all blame.
3. Am not right wing.

Way to win. 

The last posters were mostly liberals who are tired of the shit that Hamas pulls while Gaza, the people who elected them, whine about unfair treatment.


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## stream (Apr 13, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> Yeah because I:
> 
> 3. Am not right wing.


Hmmm... I would have put you as rather right wing, actually.

EDIT: Well, you are in Texas, so maybe _there_ you are not right-wing.


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## hcheng02 (Apr 13, 2011)

stream said:


> Hmmm... I would have put you as rather right wing, actually.
> 
> EDIT: Well, you are in Texas, so maybe _there_ you are not right-wing.



Right wing on what though? I mean say you are for legalizing marijuana and pro-choice for abortion, but you are also extremely skeptical about international laws and organizations like the UN - are you right wing or left wing?


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## stream (Apr 13, 2011)

hcheng02 said:


> Right wing on what though? I mean say you are for legalizing marijuana and pro-choice for abortion, but you are also extremely skeptical about international laws and organizations like the UN - are you right wing or left wing?



Good point. I put CTK as right-wing for his stance on gun control and welfare.

Personally, I believe I am a pragmatic, and skeptic of people who claim to know how the world should be. Marijuana and abortion are here to stay, and UN are powerless to stop abuses by large nations.


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## Saf (Apr 15, 2011)

Zabuzalives said:


> The good thing about leftist apologists is that They are generally too effeminate and inherently cowardly to have much influence when it really comes down to a brawl.


There's just no way you're a real poster.


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## Son of Goku (Apr 15, 2011)

Coteaz said:


> You know, the Palestinians _could_ simply lay down their arms, cease their insane genocidal mission, and either establish a peaceful state or integrate into Israel.
> 
> But that's too much to ask of degenerate savages, I know.



Yeah, cause that's what Putin would do, right? Jews forcing him out of his house and stealing the land he was born on and he'd just be like 'hey, no hard feelings, take all you need'. 

You are one confused mofo, you know that? Might wanna switch to Ghandi?!

And it was non-violence taht got them thrown out in the first place. Back then when it was the Jews being the savage terrorists.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 15, 2011)

Son of Goku said:


> And it was non-violence taht got them thrown out in the first place. Back then when it was the Jews being the savage terrorists.



There were plenty examples of Arab violence against Jews before the War of Independence and the Arabs were the ones who initiated the war which saw demographic shifts, so no.


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## Son of Goku (Apr 15, 2011)

Megaharrison said:


> There were plenty examples of Arab violence against Jews before the War of Independence and the Arabs were the ones who initiated the war which saw demographic shifts, so no.



I'm sure there were. But it seems the zionists were a tad more active in the terrorist business back then, than their counterparts, no? They had "Irgun", what did the Palistians have. 

Declaring the state of Israel was the same as declaring war. And it were the arab neighbours who answered that call for war. The palistian stance didn't matter at all, they just had to suffer the consequences.


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## Megaharrison (Apr 15, 2011)

Son of Goku said:


> They had "Irgun", what did the Palistians have.



Mohammad al-Husseni



> Declaring the state of Israel was the same as declaring war. And it were the arab neighbours who answered that call for war. The palistian stance didn't matter at all, they just had to suffer the consequences.



Your point was Israel initiated violence that caused demographic shifts, when they didn't. Moreover the Arabs epelled even more Jews from their territories than Palestinians, yet nobody talks about those.

The fact that these clearly condemnable acts always get back to 1948 though shows you peoples mindset, and why the only choice for us is continued military operations.


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## Altron (Apr 15, 2011)

Son of Goku said:


> I'm sure there were. But it seems the zionists were a tad more active in the terrorist business back then, than their counterparts, no? They had "Irgun", what did the Palistians have.


Arab backing 



> Declaring the state of Israel was the same as declaring war. And it were the arab neighbours who answered that call for war. The palistian stance didn't matter at all, they just had to suffer the consequences.


Even outnumbering Israel, the Arab countries still couldn't win. Since the Arabs lost, Israel gained even more territory. So it was the Arabs fault for starting a war they could not win and Palestinian's paying the price in territory because of it.


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## Saufsoldat (Apr 15, 2011)

Son of Goku said:


> Yeah, cause that's what Putin would do, right? Jews forcing him out of his house and stealing the land he was born on and he'd just be like 'hey, no hard feelings, take all you need'.
> 
> You are one confused mofo, you know that? Might wanna switch to Ghandi?!
> 
> And it was non-violence taht got them thrown out in the first place. Back then when it was the Jews being the savage terrorists.



I completely agree with you, Germany shouldn't take crap from Russia anymore, we need to take back East Prussia, the Sudetenland, Silesia and all the other places that Germans were forced out of in 1945, because historical borders matter very much in modern day politics.


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 15, 2011)

Saufsoldat said:


> I completely agree with you, Germany shouldn't take crap from Russia anymore, we need to take back East Prussia, the Sudetenland, Silesia and all the other places that Germans were forced out of in 1945, because historical borders matter very much in modern day politics.


This is how it starts y'all. Saufsoldat and his Fourth Reich coming soon to a World War near you.


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## Mael (Apr 15, 2011)

Cardboard Tube Knight said:


> This is how it starts y'all. Saufsoldat and his Fourth Reich coming soon to a World War near you.



Well somebody's stealing Degelle's thunder.


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## Saf (Apr 15, 2011)

While forming some historical narrative is both informative and vital to understanding, it does seem like you don't have much to fall back on if the thrust of your argument is rooted in ancient history. 1948 was like centuries ago (in medieval-years).


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## Cornbreesha (Apr 16, 2011)

I am just happy that there weren't more kids on the Bus


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## Table (Apr 17, 2011)

Mael said:


> With Hamas?
> 
> Why not ask North Korea to stop juche?
> 
> Are you this naive?



Actually Hamas officials are less corrupt when given aid money when compared to the Palestinian Authority...  i.e.  Hamas uses the aid money to help its constituents on the Gaza strip with civil society programs and food/shelter whereas with the PA that money usually gets caught up in red tape (aka going straight to the pockets of gov officials).  


Still not condoning what they did though, nor am I condoning Israel's retaliation.  Conflict on the Gaza strip is like watching a never ending match of table tennis =/


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## Cardboard Tube Knight (Apr 17, 2011)

Retaliation is appropriate in this situation.


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## Table (Apr 17, 2011)

Retaliation on which side?  Hamas was retaliating to an IDF attack as well... the whole conflict is based around retaliation following retaliation in an endless chain...  it's ridiculous.

Edit:

Also, although I don't think the IDF deliberately targets children, they do get caught in the crossfire.  I think when children are dying, regardless of what side they're on, its something we should all frown upon.


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