# The Battledome Challenger Arena



## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

*Post the name of the person who you want to debate with in this Battledome. *​
Ever seen a poster post something so ridiculous that you want to teach them a lesson? Some annoying fanboy that you want to kick their ass? Now's your chance to challenge them.

Identify all these key criteria:
E.g.

I challenge : [insert poster name or names]  - This can be a 1v1, 2v2 or even 3v3!
Match: [Insert match e.g. Orochimaru vs Jiraiya]
Location:
Knowledge:
Distance:
Restrictions:

Introduce any other criteria that you deem appropriate. 

Challenge whoever you want, and if they accept, I'll create a thread just for you two to duke it out for all of us to see. 

Once the thread for the match has been created, *I ask that those who are not involved refrain from posting in it*, since we only want to see those involved duke it out. *You must be willing to commit*, otherwise it'll be no different than the normal stuff we already have. 

Each post has to be at least 500 words and under 1500 words. Any lower/higher than this then it's not entertaining. Try to be creative with your matches, bring new ideas/panels/perspectives into this so *maybe *we might learn something we don't already know.


*Do not clog this thread with irrelevant posts. Only post a Challenge, Accept or Deny.*

*Let the beef begin! *​*Admins  - *
@HandfullofNaruto 
​
*Spoiler*: _****JUDGING CRITERIA****_ 





Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity)
Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?)

On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)

For example:
*Analysis - S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

*Creativity - A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

*Structure - B+*
(Followed by reason)

*Factual - C-*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

*Persuasiveness - S+ *
(Followed by reason - Did you changed your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)







*
MATCH HISTORY
*

Reactions: Like 10 | Funny 1 | Creative 2


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

So will it be like the Debate Tournament when you can only have 2 posts? Or just an extensive debate?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> So will it be like the Debate Tournament when you can only have 2 posts? Or just an extensive debate?




Extensive debate - Long term, which is why I say you must be committed. I said that each post should at least have 500 words, and 1500 words maximum.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 7, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I challenge: @DaVizWiz
> 
> Match: Kisame Hoshigaki vs Tsunade Senju (I will be debating on behalf of Kisame in this argument)
> Location: Destroyed Konoha
> ...


This isn't like the debate tournament, where you're forced to debate for a character.
DaVizWiz agrees that Kisame beats Tsunade.

EDIT
Who wants to challenge me?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 7, 2016)

I challenge: @DaVizWiz 

Match: Kisame Hoshigaki vs Jiraiya (I will be debating on behalf of Kisame)
Location: Amegakure
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 25m
Restrictions: Frog song



PhantomSage said:


> This isn't like the debate tournament, where you're forced to debate for a character.
> DaVizWiz agrees that Kisame beats Tsunade.



edited, and someone has to debate for someone, what happens if both partys are debating on behalf of the same person?!


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## Sapherosth (Dec 7, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I challenge: @DaVizWiz
> 
> Match: Kisame Hoshigaki vs Jiraiya (I will be debating on behalf of Kisame)
> Location: Amegakure
> ...





It's up to you guys who you want to argue for. However, I suggest that the one challenging decides which character they want to take first so the other person knows who they're arguing against. 

Your layout is legit. Now all you have to do is wait and see if @DaVizWiz  will accept the challenge or chicken out.

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 8, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I challenge: @DaVizWiz
> 
> Match: Kisame Hoshigaki vs Jiraiya (I will be debating on behalf of Kisame)
> Location: Amegakure
> ...


It's not exactly a great matchup.

Normally I wouldn't want to debate against Kisame with you, no disrespect, that's a favorite of yours and I'd like to keep it unbias.

Give me a couple other possible matches you'd be interested in and I'll take one of them.

Or I can offer a couple in exchange.

EDIT: Oh, I see you changed it to Jiraiya. I have no issue arguing for Jiraiya in that matchup. Make the thread legit @Sapherosth

Reactions: Like 3 | Funny 1 | Winner 2 | Friendly 1 | Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2016)

Great thread @Sapherosth this match up is going to be good.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## theRonin (Dec 8, 2016)

Hopefully we can finally settle who is the clear winner between Jiraiya and Kisame.

Good luck @DaVizWiz and @Troyse22 .

Reactions: Friendly 1 | Optimistic 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 8, 2016)

After we each post first (how we see our character winning), we're basically doing rebuttals from there on @Sapherosth?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> After we each post first (how we see our character winning), we're basically doing rebuttals from there on @Sapherosth?




Indeed


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## theRonin (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Indeed


Then how is the winner decided?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

Ichibat said:


> Then how is the winner decided?




I will think up some voting criteria so votes are as fair as possible. I'll let you guys know later.


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## theRonin (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I will think up some voting criteria so votes are as fair as possible. I'll let you guys know later.


Okay.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Imo it shouldn't be like the tournament. just a more direct version.

One makes an intro, one rebutts that, then the other rebutts the rebuttal,and so on.

Like the regular debates that happen on the NBD. direct


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Imo it shouldn't be like the tournament. just a more direct version.
> 
> One makes an intro, one rebutts that, then the other rebutts the rebuttal,and so on.
> 
> Like the regular debates that happen on the NBD. direct




It's a fair point, but then again, the voting system that I am thinking of does not necessarily refer to who wins the argument/debate, but give feedback for that poster so they can improve. You're welcome to send me a private msg to discuss this further, since I don't want to clog this thread.

Right now I am still undecided. We'll see how it goes. 

Whoever has any ideas they want to put forward just drop me a private message.


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## Matty (Dec 8, 2016)

You should try to get this sticky'd so that at any time people can challenge others to a more casual debate styled thread without this main thread getting buried over time. I really like this Idea.

You can even have an open ended challenge. I can come here and say who wants to chellenge me ill be arguing on Sasori's behalf. And then someone can come along and argue against me using a character from his general tier

Just my two cents

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty said:


> You should try to get this sticky'd so that at any time people can challenge others to a more casual debate styled thread without this main thread getting buried over time. I really like this Idea.
> 
> You can even have an open ended challenge. I can come here and say who wants to chellenge me ill be arguing on Sasori's behalf. And then someone can come along and argue against me using a character from his general tier
> 
> Just my two cents




I think it needs a bit more participants before we can get it stick'd. Maybe if it gets popular enough and people want it, @Saru will answer our prayers.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty said:


> You should try to get this sticky'd so that at any time people can challenge others to a more casual debate styled thread without this main thread getting buried over time. I really like this Idea.
> 
> You can even have an open ended challenge. I can come here and say who wants to chellenge me ill be arguing on Sasori's behalf. And then someone can come along and argue against me using a character from his general tier
> 
> Just my two cents


Wanna do Dei vs Sasori?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 8, 2016)

I feel like getting into a Healthy Orochimaru debatechallenge me if you dare! 

*I'd like to see a debate between*:
@WorldsStrongest / @UchihaX28
Minato vs Itachi
-----​@Bonly / @t0xeus 
Tsunade vs Deidara or Kakashi..
-----​@Kyu / @Turrin
I can't decide a match for you two but I'd like to see you guys get down in a debate. SM Kabuto vs Obito or maybe something like Yamato vs Darui .. I don't know.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Matty (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Wanna do Dei vs Sasori?



Yea Im in

Reactions: Like 2


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty said:


> Yea Im in


Location - Sannin Deadlock
Starting Distance - 50m
Intel - Manga
Mindset - IC
Restrictions - None
Stipulation :
- Both start in base.
- Deidara has full bag of clay

Do you agree to these conditions?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Matty (Dec 8, 2016)

I would usually start at 25m so why dont we do 35 meters, if that is cool with you. other than that i accept all conditions

Also, I am a little busy at the moment. but if you make the thread i will be able to participate when I get home tonight


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty said:


> I would usually start at 25m so why dont we do 35 meters, if that is cool with you. other than that i accept all conditions
> 
> Also, I am a little busy at the moment. but if you make the thread i will be able to participate when I get home tonight



25m is good.
Considering he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz from under 5m. I think I can make a case for him holding out from 25m.
@Sapherosth make the thread.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (Dec 8, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> 25m is good.
> Considering he reacted to Hebi Sasuke's blitz from under 5m. I think I can make a case for him holding out from 25m.
> @Sapherosth make the thread.



You're too kind. Good luck, man!

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Matty said:


> You're too kind. Good luck, man!


Same for you!


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

@Troyse22 would you agree with a Kisame vs Pein Matchup?

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> @Troyse22 would you agree with a Kisame vs Pein Matchup?


He is already in a debate with DaVizWiz.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He is already in a debate with DaVizWiz.


Well I mean @DaVizWiz hasn't answered for a while, me and him could just set up ours. Though it's ok, we could have it after.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 8, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He is already in a debate with DaVizWiz.





emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Well I mean @DaVizWiz hasn't answered for a while, me and him could just set up ours. Though it's ok, we could have it after.




There's no limit to how many matches you want to take on, as long as you're committed to posting in them. If @Troyse22  wants more than 1 match that's fine by me, but he has to make sure he keep up with the work as well.


Ever thought of going into teams? 2v2 would be an interesting debate, plus it would keep things active/interesting. By 2v2 I meant 2 posters vs 2 posters.

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> There's no limit to how many matches you want to take on, as long as you're committed to posting in them. If @Troyse22  wants more than 1 match that's fine by me, but he has to make sure he keep up with the work as well.
> 
> 
> Ever thought of going into teams? 2v2 would be an interesting debate, plus it would keep things active/interesting. By 2v2 I meant 2 posters vs 2 posters.


Amazing idea, honestly you make waaaay better ideas then most of the people who run this part of NF.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

Alright, my intro on Dei vs Sasori is up, go check it out plz


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

@Troyse22 How would you only get in trouble if I was debating too? That makes no sense.

Come on I felt like we got robbed for a debate we should have had in the thread you made, pretty please?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

Tbh could someone just make a pm for this, so we wouldn't be wasting @Sapherosth thread space and just talk about stuff related to this on their? Does anyone esle think this is a good idea.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Tbh could someone just make a pm for this, so we wouldn't be wasting @Sapherosth thread space and just talk about stuff related to this on their? Does anyone esle think this is a good idea.


Yeah, for the Debate Tournament that Ryuzaki did he had a PM discussion. Sapherosth can make it.


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## Ayala (Dec 8, 2016)

I think the best matches happen when there's no bias or real "feeling" for the characters in the thread. Giving Itachi to a hardcore Itachi fan or Minato to a huge Minato fan, or Kisame to a huge Kisame fan (for example) is bad imo. What's even worse is making the two clash.

We have an example on a recent thread, who honestly seems to be as bad as it gets.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> I think the best matches happen when there's no bias or real "feeling" for the characters in the thread. Giving Itachi to a hardcore Itachi fan or Minato to a huge Minato fan (for example) is bad imo. What's even worse is making the two clash.
> 
> We have an example on a recent thread, who honestly seems to be as bad as it gets.



The minato and Itachi thrash is what you're talking about?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @WorldsStrongest / @UchihaX28
> Minato vs Itachi


Ahhh, but handful darling, we have your thread that i bumped for that.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Bump...

Reactions: Winner 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> The minato and Itachi thrash is what you're talking about?


What trash exactly?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2016)

Way off topic guys, cut it out, seriously.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Ayala (Dec 8, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> The minato and Itachi thrash is what you're talking about?



No just talking in general honestly.


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> What trash exactly?



Didn't mean to put trash just only word I could think of bull shit would help wouldn't it? Either way it was a thread that bound to be entertaining..especially considering the past issues and debates the two matched up together created


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2016)

Anyways @Troyse22 what exactly is the issue?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

@Sapherosth

2 things...

1. How exactly would a 2v2 or a 3v3 debate work?

2. this isnt meant as an insult, just so ypou know, just feel i should let you know, when i read your username, i pronounce it as sassafras, and i have since i got made my account here.  Note, im aware this is 110% the incorrect pronunciation, it just amuses me.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2016)

LAZLOLAZZING said:


> Anyways @Troyse22 what exactly is the issue?







Sapherosth said:


> Do not clog this thread with irrelevant posts. Only post a Challenge, Accept or Deny.



Take this Itachi vs Minato debate nonsense to a PM.

No, i'm not trying to moderate or anything like that, i'm merely trying to give support to the organizer of a refreshing debate "tournament"

Please do your best to respect the rules of the thread, as laid out by Saph.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ayala (Dec 8, 2016)

Im trying to immagine something like Kisame vs Itachi between two giant fans of them. One of them would be like "Daikodan gg since it absorbs all ninjutsu even Indra arrow and PS and CT" while the other would say "Yata tanks it no diff since it is said to repel all ninjutsu and Totsuka gg since the will of Kaguya said he's invincible" or something like that (for example, not referring to anyone in particular) 

Btw what happens if Daikodan runs into Yata


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2016)

Whatever dude.....


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2016)

oetsuthebest said:


> Btw what happens if Daikodan runs into Yata


Big bang 2.0, manga fact, its legit i checked.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2016)

I created a pm called TBCA, you guys could talk about other things related to this thread in there.


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## Ayala (Dec 8, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Big bang 2.0, manga fact, its legit i checked.



Yea, i just checked the databook 5 and it mentioned that too. Good thing they were friends, Itachi really saved them all


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 8, 2016)

*


Sapherosth said:



			Do not clog this thread with irrelevant posts. Only post a Challenge, Accept or Deny.
		
Click to expand...

*

Reactions: Like 2


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## t0xeus (Dec 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I feel like getting into a Healthy Orochimaru debatechallenge me if you dare!
> 
> *I'd like to see a debate between*:
> @WorldsStrongest / @UchihaX28
> ...


I'm down if Bonly agrees as well.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 9, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> I'm down if Bonly agrees as well.




@Bonly  what do you think?

Although I propose that both of you actually swap the characters you're arguing for. That would be interesting to see imo. It gives you a different perspective on how you think a character would do against another.


Edit:

As for the matches that I want to see:

@Turrin (Orochimaru) vs (Jiraiya) @HandfullofNaruto     (Turrin arguing for Orochimaru winning and Hanfull arguing for Jiraiya winning)


@WorldsStrongest (Itachi) vs (Minato) @UchihaX28    (WorldsStrongest arguing for Healthy Itachi and UchihaX argues for Minato)

And so forth.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> @WorldsStrongest (Itachi) vs (Minato) @UchihaX28 (WorldsStrongest arguing for Healthy Itachi and UchihaX argues for Minato)


Not to be a spoilsport, but i would need to refuse this matchup that is proposed.

Id be wiling to try a mirror match on practically any other standpoint i have in the manga however, just not minato vs itachi, as that is all but set in stone for me.

Though im drawing a blank on some other vocal standpoint i have to put forth as an option, perhaps other posters i have debated against in the past would be so kind as to remind me? Lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 9, 2016)

@HandfullofNaruto

I'd prefer a match-up involving Hebi Sasuke or something and have WorldofStrongest debate using a controversial character such as Orochimaru, War Arc Kakashi, or Kakuzu (since WorldofStrongest likes Kakuzu).

Reactions: Like 2


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## Bonly (Dec 9, 2016)

I saw the idea behind the thread and my first thought process was "Welp everyone about to be at Troyse22 in a Kisame vs insert character here" lol



Sapherosth said:


> @Bonly  what do you think?
> 
> Although I propose that both of you actually swap the characters you're arguing for. That would be interesting to see imo. It gives you a different perspective on how you think a character would do against another.



I'd have to decline, I honestly just don't have any interest in doing something long like this when it comes to Tsunade

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2016)

Bonly said:


> I saw the idea behind the thread and my first thought process was "Welp everyone about to be at Troyse22 in a Kisame vs insert character here" lol



That's what I thought would happen, but so far nothing like that has happened yet.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 9, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @HandfullofNaruto
> 
> I'd prefer a match-up involving Hebi Sasuke or something and have WorldsStrongest debate using a controversial character such as Orochimaru, War Arc Kakashi, or Kakuzu (since WorldofStrongest likes Kakuzu).


I suggested Sasuke vs Kakashi and Sasori vs Kakuzu in a PM with him... Sasuke vs Kakuzu sounds interesting. @WorldsStrongest would you be willing to debate Kakuzu vs Hebi Sasuke??


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Sasuke vs Kakuzu sounds interesting. @WorldsStrongest would you be willing to debate Kakuzu vs Hebi Sasuke??


Im of the opinion hebi sasuke can solo both kakuzu and his partner more often than not, but i wouldnt mind trying to prove myself wrong i suppose.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im of the opinion hebi sasuke can solo both kakuzu and his partner more often than not,



Wait what?


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 9, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Im of the opinion hebi sasuke can solo both kakuzu and his partner more often than not, but i wouldnt mind trying to prove myself wrong i suppose.



 It depends on what strategy you're willing to take here.

 Kakuzu's elements are of paramount importance because they're the backbone of his arsenal, so it would be best to focus on Kakuzu's ninjutsu knowing that Futon > Raiton and Suiton > Katon.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> It depends on what strategy you're willing to take here.
> 
> Kakuzu's elements are of paramount importance because they're the backbone of his arsenal, so it would be best to focus on Kakuzu's ninjutsu knowing that Futon > Raiton and Suiton > Katon.


Thats pretty well the route id take, but i cant recall any suiton feats from kakuzu ever 

Unless he had some as an edo during the war that are slipping my mind.

I know he has the hype for 5 elements, 1 heart for each one, but i dont recall ever seeing him use suiton.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 10, 2016)

Great idea.

Would anybody like to debate? I don't have any real match-up preferences that I can think of off the top of my head.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Wait what?


Not getting into this here, it is vastly off topic and will clog the thread.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 10, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Thats pretty well the route id take, but i cant recall any suiton feats from kakuzu ever
> 
> Unless he had some as an edo during the war that are slipping my mind.
> 
> I know he has the hype for 5 elements, 1 heart for each one, but i dont recall ever seeing him use suiton.


 
 There are statements that suggest that Kakuzu has high level Suiton which should be enough given that Sasuke has no feats of countering Suiton w/ Katon either.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 10, 2016)

Regardless of the matchup, i wouldnt wanna debate with anyone until i know the voting criteria, so id hold off on challenging anyone until i see the results of another match first, i also wouldnt mind helping with the voting process if @Sapherosth needs any help.

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## TobiramaSS (Dec 10, 2016)

I'd like to do a Konan vs. debate with someone, she seems to be massively underrated. 
Besides that I'd like to challenge:
*@Lord Aizen* for _Toneri vs Juubito_
*@Shinobi no Kami* for _Toneri vs Hashirama_
*@Saru* for _Gokage vs Nagato_
*@Troyse22* for _Kisame vs Tobirama_ (Our last debate got steered way out of topic, I'd like to continue it.)

Also I'd prefer if the the time limit for the debate was set to no more than 3 days, I don't want to to spend too much time on these debates. @Sapherosth

Reactions: Dislike 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 10, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> I'd like to do a Konan vs. debate with someone, she seems to be massively underrated.
> Besides that I'd like to challenge:
> *@Lord Aizen* for _Toneri vs Juubito_
> *@Shinobi no Kami* for _Toneri vs Hashirama_
> ...




How long you want to argue for is up to you as long as there's at least 4 posts each.


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 10, 2016)

@Saru, fancy a match with your senpai?

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> *@Troyse22* for _Kisame vs Tobirama_ (Our last debate got steered way out of topic, I'd like to continue it.)



I may 

i'll let you know by the end of the day.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2016)

I will rock with Hebi Sasuke, War Arc Kakashi, any version of Kabuto, or Itachi vs pretty much anyone who wants to debate. Does Pirate still post here? Or Bringer of chaos? I'd do a Tsunade thread with one of them (or Flamingrain).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 10, 2016)

Muu vs Sasori, anyone?


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## t0xeus (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Muu vs Sasori, anyone?


Who would you argue for?


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## Parallaxis (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Muu vs Sasori, anyone?


I'll bite. what are the conditions? id like to debate for Sasori.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 10, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Who would you argue for?


I think Muu would win, but I'm trying saphs idea, so I'd argue for Sasori. I may do shit though, but I don't really care as I have zero experience or literal interest in arguing for sasori.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> I think Muu would win, but I'm trying saphs idea, so I'd argue for Sasori. I may do shit though, but I don't really care





emanthespriggan1234 said:


> I think Muu would win, but I'm trying saphs idea, so I'd argue for Sasori. I may do shit though, but I don't really care


I think Sasori wins, wanna debate it?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 10, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I think Sasori wins, wanna debate it?


sure, I was originally gonna go with saph's idea and argue for the opposite choice I had in mind, but if you wanna argue for Sasori it's ok with me.

Read my Sasori vs Muu thread, the conditions are exactly like that and lol there's a pm for this, why don't we talk about it in there instead of using thread space?


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## Parallaxis (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> sure, I was originally gonna go with saph's idea and argue for the opposite choice I had in mind, but if you wanna argue for Sasori it's ok with me.
> 
> Read my Sasori vs Muu thread, the conditions are exactly like that.


Thought @Sapherosth was supposed to make the thread.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 10, 2016)

When you want to challenge people or accept, please use this format:

*I challenge* : [insert poster name or names] - 
*Match: 
Location:
Knowledge:
Distance:
Restrictions:*
*Stipulations:

*
So it's easier to copy/paste and clear for me to see.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> lol, that was a separate thread. It has no relation to TBCA.


Change the Location to Akatsuki Hideout and have Sasori start with t3 KK out. Otherwise he gets murked

With these conditions I accept. Otherwise Muu just goes ghost mode and jintons him,neg diff.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 10, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Change the Location to Akatsuki Hideout and have Sasori start with t3 KK out. Otherwise he gets murked.



Location:Akatsuki Hideout
Match: Sasori vs Muu
Knowledge: Full for all.
Distance: 80m
Restrictions: None
Stips: Sasori starts with t3 KK out
@Sapherosth I'm finished

also, I had a 2v2 idea: Gengetsu and Muu vs Kisame and Sasori, If any one's interested, I have no problem doing to debates


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## Icegaze (Dec 10, 2016)

I would be willingly to debate these characters against anyone 

Minato 
itachi 
Muu

Reactions: Funny 1


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## t0xeus (Dec 10, 2016)

DtD*** Madara, SM Kabuto, Third Raikage, Kimimaro or Hiruzen against anyone.

__________________
** *- Down to Debate (new abbreviation I came up with just now, feel free to use )

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 10, 2016)

emanthespriggan1234 said:


> Location:Akatsuki Hideout
> Match: Sasori vs Muu
> Knowledge: Full for all.
> Distance: 80m
> ...


I accept. Good luck!


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## Serene Grace (Dec 10, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I accept. Good luck!


you 2.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 10, 2016)

There's an awful lot of people who say they'd debate with anyone, but aren't challenging anyone to a debate. Haha


Start challenging! Don't wait to get challenged.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Dr. White (Dec 10, 2016)

*I challenge Uchihx28 (I'm arguing Kakashi)
Match: Kakashi vs Minato
Location: Zabuza vs Kakashi Rd. 1
Knowledge: Manga (War Arc Cut off)
Distance: 20m
Restrictions: No KCM or SM for Minato*
*Stipulations: None*

Feeling risky* *

Reactions: Like 2


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 10, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> *I challenge Uchihx28 (I'm arguing Kakashi)
> Match: Kakashi vs Minato
> Location: Zabuza vs Kakashi Rd. 1
> Knowledge: Manga (War Arc Cut off)
> ...



 I'd be happy to debate this match-up in a few days. This'll be hard given the fact that Kakashi has substantial knowledge here.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> *@Troyse22* for _Kisame vs Tobirama_ (Our last debate got steered way out of topic, I'd like to continue it



I decline, giving how Phantomsage described his experience fighting 2 debates at once. 

I will however accept this challenge after I undoubtedly defeat @DaVizWiz

Reactions: Funny 3


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## Saru (Dec 10, 2016)

UnjustNation said:


> I'd like to do a Konan vs. debate with someone, she seems to be massively underrated.
> Besides that I'd like to challenge:
> *@Lord Aizen* for _Toneri vs Juubito_
> *@Shinobi no Kami* for _Toneri vs Hashirama_
> ...





Atlantic Storm said:


> @Saru, fancy a match with your senpai?



I'm always game.

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 10, 2016)

Saru said:


> I'm always game.



 Do not mislead us and end up suffering a humiliating defeat as you did against @Bonly.


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## Sapherosth (Dec 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Do not mislead us and end up suffering a humiliating defeat as you did against @Bonly.





*Shots fired*, @Saru  are you gonna take this?

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Do not mislead us and end up suffering a humiliating defeat as you did against @Bonly.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 11, 2016)

I'd happily debate Itachi vs X, or Pain vs X, once I'm finished with my current debates.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 11, 2016)

I challenge @WorldsStrongest

MS Obito (Pre War) vs Pain

Location - Destroyed Konoha
Starting Distance - 30m
Mindset - IC
Intel - Manga
Restrictions - Izanagi


I'll be arguing for Pain.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 11, 2016)

Anyone wanna go up against me? I feel like a challenge so i was thinking....

Nagato Vs Pain

Location: Sannin Battlefield
Distance: 35m
Knowledge: Full
Mindset: IC
Restrictions: GM

And, to make it really interesting,* Ill argue for Pain*


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## Parallaxis (Dec 11, 2016)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Anyone wanna go up against me? I feel like a challenge so i was thinking....
> 
> Nagato Vs Pain
> 
> ...


Wasn't it confirmed that Nagato >>> Pain?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 11, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Wasn't it confirmed that Nagato >>> Pain?


Thats the point, i said i wanted a challenge lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 11, 2016)

@Kai 
@Daenerys Stormborn @Saru 

Would pinning the challenge threads themselves be possible so we don't need to bump them?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 11, 2016)

@Sapherosth any updates regarding how the voting will go?


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## Saru (Dec 11, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> *Shots fired*, @Saru  are you gonna take this?



No. 

@UchihaX28 meet me in the streets arena. I will debate you on Kakashi's behalf vs. a reasonably equal character of your choosing.



Troyse22 said:


> @Kai
> @Daenerys Stormborn @Saru
> 
> Would pinning the challenge threads themselves be possible so we don't need to bump them?



It depends. If there's like 5+ matches going on at once, we'll probably be better off just having a thread link in the OP of this thread. Not everyone can participate in these debates, after all.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 12, 2016)

What kind of match would you like, Saru? I've no preferences; I'd really just like to get the debate rust off my shoulders.


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## Saru (Dec 12, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> What kind of match would you like, Saru? I've no preferences; I'd really just like to get the debate rust off my shoulders.



Itachi vs. Jiraiya sounds fun (with me arguing on Itachi's behalf).

Location: Abandoned Konoha
Knowledge: Full
Distance: 25m
Restrictions: None

Good terms?


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 12, 2016)

I think I'm okay with that. 

What's the format of these matches again? Same one intro. post and one rebuttal?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 12, 2016)

******JUDGING CRITERIA******​

Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity)
Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?)

On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)

For example:
*Analysis - S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

*Creativity - A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

*Structure - B+*
(Followed by reason)

*Factual - C-*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

*Persuasiveness - S+ *
(Followed by reason - Did you changed your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)

Reactions: Like 2


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 12, 2016)

Ah, wait, does Itachi have the Shisui crow? For the sake of balance, I'd like that to be restricted, if it's possible.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Alex Payne (Dec 12, 2016)

Implying GoS stands a chance. New gen > Old gen as per manga.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Dec 12, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> @Kai
> @Daenerys Stormborn @Saru
> 
> Would pinning the challenge threads themselves be possible so we don't need to bump them?



It could work if there are only one or two active at a time, but more than that and I think it would make the list of stickies too long.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 13, 2016)

Alex Payne said:


> Implying GoS stands a chance. New gen > Old gen as per manga.


I'm in every gen. Call me Madara.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 13, 2016)

@UchihaX28 I'm ready for our match anytime then buddy.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 13, 2016)

Will have my response up tonight. Been busy with work, plus digging for every little detail does take some time.

Sorry about the delay, but expect my response to Davizwiz in the Kisame vs Jiraiya thread soon

Reactions: Like 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 13, 2016)

I've been really busy for the past few days, so I haven't had time to write my post. It should be up today, though. Sorry for the wait.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 13, 2016)

@Atlantic Storm

Both posters make intros, they one rebutts the other, and the other rebutts that rebuttal and it goes on I think.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 13, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> @UchihaX28 I'm ready for our match anytime then buddy.



 I'm down for it now since my classes have all ended.

 I might either post tomorrow or the day after that since I'll be studying up on Minato's portrayal vs. Kakashi's.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Icegaze (Dec 14, 2016)

I challenge anyone to a kisame vs Minato match up


@Troyse22 @Sapherosth 

anytime your ready.

Reactions: Like 4 | Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 14, 2016)

Icegaze said:


> I challenge anyone to a kisame vs Minato match up
> 
> 
> @Troyse22 @Sapherosth
> ...



Already in a debate, and told someone I'd debate Kisame vs Tobirama with them after that, so it may be a bit.

I do accept, however not right now


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 14, 2016)

Lacking the energy to construct a final rebuttal tonight

I'm off tomorrow, I'll type it up during the day

Hold your evaluations until then, for anyone who was interested in doing so


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

@Sapherosth 

 Do you mind if you can make Dr. White's match? Dr. White (War Arc Kakashi) vs. UchihaX28 (Minato).


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> Do you mind if you can make Dr. White's match? Dr. White (War Arc Kakashi) vs. UchihaX28 (Minato).




I challenge : [insert poster name or names] 
Match: 
Location:
Knowledge:
Distance:
Restrictions:

Introduce any other criteria that you deem appropriate.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

@Sapherosth



Dr. White said:


> *I challenge Uchihx28 (I'm arguing Kakashi)
> Match: Kakashi vs Minato
> Location: Zabuza vs Kakashi Rd. 1
> Knowledge: Manga (War Arc Cut off)
> ...



 These are the stipulations that Dr. White set for the match.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> 
> 
> These are the stipulations that Dr. White set for the match.



Thanks, it was quite a while ago so I forgot.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Thanks, it was quite a while ago so I forgot.



No problem.

I am ready to distort the manga because even I'm not confident in Minato's ability to win here. Minato shits, not even debatable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Dr. White (Dec 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Sapherosth
> 
> 
> 
> These are the stipulations that Dr. White set for the match.





Sapherosth said:


> Thanks, it was quite a while ago so I forgot.


If I may add one more stipulation, I would like for Minato to only be capable of summoning Gamabunta for frogs.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Informative 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 15, 2016)

uchiha debating for Minato?  never thought I'd see the day.

Reactions: Like 1


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> uchiha debating for Minato?  never thought I'd see the day.



 Better believe it home boi. 

 I shall do Minato good and not tarnish his name.

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 15, 2016)

UchihaX28 said:


> Better believe it home boi.
> 
> I shall do Minato good and not tarnish his name.


Better make me proud, show them Minato will always stay great


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Better make me proud, show them Minato will always stay great



 Minato will always be great, even when he lost both of his arms.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 15, 2016)

Minato vs Kakashi? 

Kamui gg.


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## UchihaX28 (Dec 15, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Minato vs Kakashi?
> 
> Kamui gg.



Please. Hiraishin speed-blitzed Obito's Kamui and made it look like fodder shit in comparison. Kamui ain't got nothing on Minato.


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## Turrin (Dec 17, 2016)

So can anyone vote or are there judges. And when do we vote?


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## Sapherosth (Dec 17, 2016)

Turrin said:


> So can anyone vote or are there judges. And when do we vote?




After both posters post a few posts. Anyone can judge, but it has to follow the judging criteria. These sort of matches are intended for people to showcase their knowledge on key characters and/or just have fun with another poster in a friendly match, or perhaps settle a grudge.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 17, 2016)

Hey guys! Go check out the Jiraiya vs Kisame thread (Me and Davizwiz). We're wrapping up the debate soon.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 17, 2016)

Any takers for Prime Hiruzen vs Kisame?

Or Prime Hiruzen vs Hebi Sasuke (Oro restricted)???


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## Troyse22 (Dec 18, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> *Spoiler*: _****JUDGING CRITERIA****_
> 
> Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
> Creativity (The creativity)
> ...





I encourage people to start "voting" in the Kisame vs Jiraiya thread (@Troyse22 vs @DaVizWiz )

The criteria for voting is quoted from @Sapherosth above

It *APPEARS* (I can't say with certainty) that Davizwiz has conceded, based on him not responding in 5 days.



I congratulate you on a well fought debate @DaVizWiz and good luck to you in the "voting" segment!


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 18, 2016)

*I Challenge*: @Troyse22 

*The Battle*: Tsunade vs Kisame + Samehada

*Location*: Sannin Battlefield
*Starting Distance*: 50 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Restrictions / Stipulations*:
• Absolutely None

I know you're all busy with these debates and challenges but I hope you can clear a spot for me in the future. I'd like to get this out of the way.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *I Challenge*: @Troyse22
> 
> *The Battle*: Tsunade vs Kisame + Samehada
> 
> ...




I formally decline, the debate is a clear stomp for Kisame, I'm looking for harder debates that people don't expect Kisame to win.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I formally decline, the debate is a clear stomp for Kisame, I'm looking for harder debates that people don't expect Kisame to win.


So you decline...... because you might finally win one of these Kisame debates? Solid Logic.

Reactions: Winner 1 | Dislike 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 18, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> So you decline...... because you might finally win one of these Kisame debates? Solid Logic.




I beg to differ.

It's looking alright for me in the Kisame vs Jiraiya thread.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 18, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I beg to differ.
> 
> It's looking alright for me in the Kisame vs Jiraiya thread.


There are no votes. I suppose you're doing "alright" but no better than DVW lol. Anyway I'll always be waiting for you to finish your debate (Tsunade vs Kisame) until then concession accepted.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

Tsunade  vs Kisame would not be a stomp tho.

I have them as about equals,


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 18, 2016)

@Saru, I'm dying of food poisoning at the moment, so are you cool if we decide the match just based on our openings?


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## t0xeus (Dec 18, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> @Saru, I'm dying of food poisoning at the moment, so are you cool if we decide the match just based on our openings?


Just postpone it maybe?

It's impossible to decide based on intro.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Any takers for Prime Hiruzen vs Kisame?


Elemental barrage gg
Any genjutsu gg
Fuma shuriken bunshin gg
Enma one shots





PhantomSage said:


> Or Prime Hiruzen vs Hebi Sasuke (Oro restricted)???


Elemental barrage  gg
Enma gg
Fuma shuriken kage bunshin gg


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Elemental barrage gg
> Any genjutsu gg
> Fuma shuriken bunshin gg
> Enma one shots
> ...



As you can see, the shuriken were nearly blitzing Juubito.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> As you can see, the shuriken were nearly blitzing Juubito.


That was old hiruzen I am sure prime hiruzens jutsu would have been more intense


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

@t0xeus

Prime Hiruzen (me) vs hebi Sasuke

Location -- Amegakure
Starting distance -- 50m
Mindset -- IC
Intel -- Manga
Restrictions -- Kirin, Orochimaru emerging
Hiruzen is prime

These were the conditions you agreed to in the PM. Is this okay, or do you want to restrict Kirin?

Reactions: Like 1


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## t0xeus (Dec 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> @t0xeus
> 
> Prime Hiruzen (me) vs hebi Sasuke
> 
> ...


It's fine like this.

You can make Kirin last resort or usable after some time period of the fight, but I don't personally mind it being restricted.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> It's fine like this.
> 
> You can make Kirin last resort or usable after some time period of the fight, but I don't personally mind it being restricted.


You sure? 
Without it he's getting curbed.


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## t0xeus (Dec 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> You sure?
> Without it he's getting curbed.


Don!t think so, but okay, allow it then as last resort.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Don!t think so, but okay, allow it then as last resort.


I think so 


How bout this? Unrestrict Kirin, and restrict Manda


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## t0xeus (Dec 18, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I think so
> 
> 
> How bout this? Unrestrict Kirin, and restrict Manda


Ok, sounds fair.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

t0xeus said:


> Ok, sounds fair.


Yeah, ok.

@Sapherosth make the thread. 
Amegakure
30m
Manga
IC
Hiruzen is prime
Manda, Oro emerging is restricted 

And Ill get my rebuttal to muu vs sasori today


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## Serene Grace (Dec 18, 2016)

would love to see a hebi sasuke vs hiruzen match.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 18, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> would love to see a hebi sasuke vs hiruzen match.


I won't disappoint

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Saru (Dec 18, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> @Saru, I'm dying of food poisoning at the moment, so are you cool if we decide the match just based on our openings?



I hope you get over your hangover "food poisoning." 

That's completely fine.

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Sapherosth (Dec 18, 2016)

Saru said:


> I hope you get over your hangover "food poisoning."
> 
> That's completely fine.




If that's the case, anyone else wants to take on the mantle of defending Jiraiya in @Atlantic Storm 's place? I don't wanna waste an entire thread for 1 post each.

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Atlantic Storm (Dec 19, 2016)

Give me a day or two (at most), and I should have a rebuttal. I'd like to finish this myself.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 19, 2016)

I'd like to challenge the organizer of the debate himself @Sapherosth 

Match: Kimimaro vs BoS Sakura (i'd be debating on behalf of Kimimaro)

Location: Lee vs Kimimaro
Knowledge: Both know each other are Taijutsu specialists, nothing else.
Restrictions: None
Distance: 15m


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## Sapherosth (Dec 19, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I'd like to challenge the organizer of the debate himself @Sapherosth
> 
> Match: Kimimaro vs BoS Sakura (i'd be debating on behalf of Kimimaro)
> 
> ...




I am super busy atm. Barely even home! I am gonna have to decline.



@HandfullofNaruto can you create @PhantomSage 's match for me please using the same layout in the previous matches. Thank you!

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 19, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> I am super busy atm. Barely even home! I am gonna have to decline.
> 
> @HandfullofNaruto can you create @PhantomSage 's match for me please using the same layout in the previous matches. Thank you!


No problem I just posted the thread. 

Does everything look right @PhantomSage / @t0xeus ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Matty (Dec 19, 2016)

I gotta concede im an asshole. I thought I would have more time but with holidays here i am just utterly fucked for time -_- 

Sorry @PhantomSage ! You were clearly the superior debater in that short match. Apologies for making you wait so long

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 19, 2016)

Matty said:


> I thought I would have more time but with holidays here i am just utterly fucked for time -_-



lol I know the feeling. 
And I think you did pretty good, the debate was pretty fun!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Saru (Dec 20, 2016)

Atlantic Storm said:


> Give me a day or two (at most), and I should have a rebuttal. I'd like to finish this myself.



In that case, I'll do one too. Probably on Thursday since I'll have some free time.


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## Icegaze (Dec 20, 2016)

I remain unchallenged 
Shame 
I'll argue for onoki against any poster fav 
That isn't above itachi level


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## Parallaxis (Dec 20, 2016)

As of recently I've mostly been debating against Kisame. I'd be up for a Kisame debate (with me arguing for Kisame) after the holidays.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> As of recently I've mostly been debating against Kisame. I'd be up for a Kisame debate (with me arguing for Kisame) after the holidays.




I'm almost scared that you'll drag his name through the mud lol

OT: Do a Kisame vs MS Sasuke thread (FKS Sasuke)



Don't disappoint me! Lol


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## Parallaxis (Dec 20, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I'm almost scared that you'll drag his name through the mud lol
> 
> OT: Do a Kisame vs MS Sasuke thread (FKS Sasuke)
> 
> ...


Hm.. if Sasuke isn't bloodlusted I should be able to make a good case. 


Genjutsu is avoided by spamming Suitons, or using 1000 sharks to block LOS
FKS means engaging in taijutsu first as it's IC, which he gets clobbered w/Samehada, or he pukes a lake to troll his futile CQC attempts
FKS means Ribcage Susano'o only, or am I mistaken?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Hm.. if Sasuke isn't bloodlusted I should be able to make a good case.
> 
> 
> Genjutsu is avoided by spamming Suitons, or using 1000 sharks to block LOS
> ...




FKS is V2

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 20, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> FKS is V2


Yeah okay.

He can force repeated ribcage usage by spamming Suitons.
V2 is bypassed by flooding the area, and using Doton Dochu Senko to get under Susano'o and quickly take him out.
I don't know, I can probably make a case for him winning.
EDIT -- While i think MS Sasuke wins, I'd try Saph's idea of doing a logic switch


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Yeah okay.
> 
> He can force repeated ribcage usage by spamming Suitons.
> V2 is bypassed by flooding the area, and using Doton Dochu Senko to get under Susano'o and quickly take him out.
> I don't know, I can probably make a case for him winning.




I made a strong case for Kisame beating EMS Sasuke I'm hoping a rookie can handle MS Sasuke

Good luck!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Hm.. if Sasuke isn't bloodlusted I should be able to make a good case.





PhantomSage said:


> Genjutsu is avoided by spamming Suitons, or using 1000 sharks to block LOS
> FKS means engaging in taijutsu first as it's IC, which he gets clobbered w/Samehada, or he pukes a lake to troll his futile CQC attempts
> FKS means Ribcage Susano'o only, or am I mistaken?


Id be willing to debate Kisame vs Sasuke with you. We should probably restrict Amaterasu though - make it a fair battle.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Id be willing to debate Kisame vs Sasuke with you. We should probably restrict Amaterasu though - make it a fair battle.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 20, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Id be willing to debate Kisame vs Sasuke with you





> I'd be up for a Kisame debate (with me arguing for Kisame) *after the holidays*.



My relatives are visiting, and I have a lot of studying to do, I'll probably post everyday, but I'll wrap up the Hiruzen debate and the Muu one for now lol.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> We should probably restrict Amaterasu though - make it a fair battle.


Yeah, he doesn't have much of a counter to it, other than constantly spamming 1000 sharks to block LOS.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> oesn't have much of a counter to it,


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 20, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> My relatives are visiting, and I have a lot of studying to do, I'll probably post everyday, but I'll wrap up the Hiruzen debate and the Muu one for now lol.


No rush man. Just let me know when you're ready and I'll have Saph create the thread - or maybe I'll create it for him. We'll see. Anyway go ahead and finish up whatever you have going on. 





> Yeah, he doesn't have much of a counter to it, other than constantly spamming 1000 sharks to block LOS.


Unless you want to get into the whole Samehada absorbing Katon debate (I hate that debate lol it's so ridiculous) I'd just keep it restricted. We're likely to debate whether Samehada can absorb Susanoo as well.. this should be interesting.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 20, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Unless you want to get into the whole Samehada absorbing Katon debate (I hate that debate lol it's so ridiculous) I'd just keep it restricted. We're likely to debate whether Samehada can absorb Susanoo as well.. this should be interesting.




It has canonically absorbed Katon.


I'm actually triggered

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 20, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> It has canonically absorbed Katon.


It canonically attacked Killer Bee for using it o absorb a Shit-Rank Katon. When Amaterasu has the feat of burning fire itself.. Samehada stands no chance. (inb4 Karins Jacket - Amaterasu slowly burning doesn't take away anything especially when Samehadas absorption feats with Katon are shit)





> I'm actually triggered


I know.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 21, 2016)

Saying Kisame can absorb Amateratsu because it absorbed a C Rank Katon (while showing some pain) is like me saying Part 1 Kabuto can tank a Rasenshuriken because he conically tanked (with pain) a normal rasengan back in part 1.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> (inb4 Karins Jacket - Amaterasu slowly burning doesn't take away anything especially when Samehadas absorption feats with Katon are shit)


I actually came to view that as an outlier. Why?

> Burned through fire eating toad's stomach in seconds
> Burned Hachibi and caused it to thrash in pain, and Hachibi has tanked Juubidama and his own TBB
> Burned Juubi and caused it to thrash in pain
> and others



Sapherosth said:


> Saying Kisame can absorb Amateratsu because it absorbed a C Rank Katon (while showing some pain) is like me saying Part 1 Kabuto can tank a Rasenshuriken because he conically tanked (with pain) a normal rasengan back in part 1.



Soooo much this..

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 21, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> I actually came to view that as an outlier. Why?
> 
> > Burned through fire eating toad's stomach in seconds
> > Burned Hachibi and caused it to thrash in pain, and Hachibi has tanked Juubidama and his own TBB
> ...


Yea it's ridiculous to focus on one feat of a Jutsu especially when said feat goes against every other feat. By the way I know you're focused on holiday stuff so we won't be starting this for a while but how does this look?

*Spoiler*: __ 




*Match*: Kisame (PhantomSage) vs Sasuke (HandfullofNaruto)
*Location*: Sannin Battlefield
*Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Version*: Kisame + Samehada / FKS Sasuke
*Restrictions / Stipulations*: 



*Spoiler*: __ 





Amaterasu


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Yea it's ridiculous to focus on one feat of a Jutsu especially when said feat goes against every other feat. By the way I know you're focused on holiday stuff so we won't be starting this for a while but how does this look?



Restrict Susanoo arrow too, and we've got a deal.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 21, 2016)

Amaterasu's feats are pretty inconsistent.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (Dec 21, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Amaterasu's feats are pretty inconsistent.



Depends on how you look at it. If you look at Sasuke's feats with Ama they tend not to be good most of the time but if you look at Itachi's Ama feats then it usually tends to be constantly good so it depends on who uses it, imo that is.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 21, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Restrict Susanoo arrow too, and we've got a deal.


This is FKS Sasuke - I don't think he used Susanoo Arrow. I'll add it to the restrictions though


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## Troyse22 (Dec 21, 2016)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> This is FKS Sasuke - I don't think he used Susanoo Arrow. I'll add it to the restrictions though



Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow, whatever, not even going to watch this debate, utter stupidity.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow, whatever, *not even going to watch this debate, utter stupidity.*



Shots fired!

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 21, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Samehada absorbs Susanoo arrow, whatever, not even going to watch this debate, utter stupidity.


Samehada has never absorbed an attack like this. It's better for Shit-Rank Katons and Bijuu Chakra & I should note that it struggles with both.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 21, 2016)

Funny how MS Sasuke actually, has better amaterasu feats, with burning habichi and all.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Funny how MS Sasuke actually, has better amaterasu feats, with burning habichi and all.



Itachi's Amaterasu -- Dusted CS2 Hebi Sasuke's wing in seconds, which could tank attacks from KN0 Naruto with ease.
                               Burned through a fire eating toad's mouth in seconds

Sasuke's Amaterasu -- Didn't even burn through Raikage's arm, before Raikage slapped him around, got saved by Gaara, then cut off his own arm

Didn't even burn Karin (tho I said i'd probably view this as an outlier)


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## Serene Grace (Dec 21, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Itachi's Amaterasu -- Dusted CS2 Hebi Sasuke's wing in seconds, which could tank attacks from KN0 Naruto with ease.
> Burned through a fire eating toad's mouth in seconds


None of these feats are even comparable to the habichi feat.




PhantomSage said:


> Sasuke's Amaterasu -- Didn't even burn through Raikage's arm, before Raikage slapped him around, got saved by Gaara, then cut off his own arm


Pretty sure the Amaterasu released from the eye, doesn't work the same way as the one coated around his susanoo.



PhantomSage said:


> Didn't even burn Karin (tho I said i'd probably view this as an outlier)


Agreed. Was a bullshit feat, that legitimately made non sense.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> None of these feats are even comparable to the *habichi *feat.



What the fu-??
Did it burn through the Hachibi and kill him? No.
How is it not comparable? Itachi's Amaterasu would have done the same. Sasuke's couldn't burn Raikage's arm, Itachi's dusted CS2 wing and Gamaguchi.





> Pretty sure the Amaterasu released from the eye, works the same way as the one coated around his susanoo.


And this is relevant because-?>


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## Troyse22 (Dec 21, 2016)

Yeah Sasuke has crazy Amaterasu feats, like burning Karin to a crisp...oh wait, it didn't do shit.

Itachi has pretty good Amaterasu feats too, like burning Sasuke incredibly fast...oh wait...it did almost nothing.


Amaterasu is one of the most wanked jutsu on these forums, and its hype is disproven by feats.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi has pretty good Amaterasu feats too, like burning Sasuke incredibly fast...oh wait...it did almost nothing.








It dusted Sasuke, and even then Itachi opted to CANCEL out the flames.

Sasuke had to use Oral Rebirth.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 21, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> What the fu-??


ck



PhantomSage said:


> Did it burn through the Hachibi and kill him? No.


No, it didn't kill him because Sasuke stopped then flames. Considering how fast amaterasu spread, and it was able to burn through habichi who's actually tanked his on TBB before. That is a waaaay better feat than burning through a toad tongue and cs2 wings.


PhantomSage said:


> How is it not comparable? Itachi's Amaterasu would have done the same.


Baseless.



PhantomSage said:


> Sasuke's couldn't burn Raikage's arm, Itachi's dusted CS2 wing and Gamaguchi.


Amaterasu from the eye seems to work more efficient, than the one coated on the body. Let's also not forget that At had his lightning armor on.

Edit: nevermind, I'll agree to disagree that their equal, in terms of amaterasu.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> ck
> 
> 
> No, it didn't kill him because Sasuke stopped then flames. Considering how fast amaterasu spread, and it was able to burn through habichi who's actually tanked his on TBB before. That is a waaaay better feat than burning through a toad tongue and cs2 wings.
> ...



Sasuke never put out the flames, Hachibi used his Tentacle Karawimi and was trolling it the whole time.

PS.
Just started reading bleach. love the avatar

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 21, 2016)

@PhantomSage yah it's my favourites series of all time. It's one of those series, that get attached to you.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 21, 2016)

Amaterasu gg and Long range kamui gg only happen in battledome
Obito survived amaterasu
So did Karin/hachibi
So did raikage/danzo
So did nagato
So did jubbi
So did madara
So did naruto/kaguya

Only thing it worked on are nagatos summons and white zetsu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 21, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @PhantomSage yah it's my favourites series of all time. It's one of those series, that get attached to you.


Damn. All that talk about Hollows coming back to life to kill their families has got chills running down my spine


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Anyone willing to debate Kimimaro vs X with me, i'd be debating on behalf of a healthy Kimimaro, you'd be debating on behalf of a shinobi of your choosing.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Anyone willing to debate Kimimaro vs X with me, i'd be debating on behalf of a healthy Kimimaro, you'd be debating on behalf of a shinobi of your choosing.


Ill take Suigetsu


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Anyone willing to debate Kimimaro vs X with me, i'd be debating on behalf of a healthy Kimimaro, you'd be debating on behalf of a shinobi of your choosing.


MINATO


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## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

professor83 said:


> MINATO


Minato would murk Kimimaro, not really balanced.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Bonly (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Anyone willing to debate Kimimaro vs X with me, i'd be debating on behalf of a healthy Kimimaro, you'd be debating on behalf of a shinobi of your choosing.



What if I wanna debate for Kisame?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Serious responses would be great

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Sapherosth (Dec 22, 2016)

Well....Kimimaru is pretty durable. Not sure what a rasengan can do against those bones. I also don't believe sealing Kimi into a rock would suffice. 


 You know who you are...


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Sapherosth said:


> Well....Kimimaru is pretty durable. Not sure what a rasengan can do against those bones. I also don't believe sealing Kimi into a rock would suffice.
> 
> 
> You know who you are...



Yeah I was considering this, since Minato's strongest DC is Senpo Rasengan (non BSM)


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## Bonly (Dec 22, 2016)

I was being serious and got blown off


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## Troyse22 (Dec 22, 2016)

Bonly said:


> I was being serious and got blown off



Kisame drowns him.

There's not really much to the debate LOL


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## Bonly (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame drowns him.
> 
> There's not really much to the debate LOL



I was gonna say Kisame without Suitons bar water clones


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## Parallaxis (Dec 22, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah I was considering this, since Minato's strongest DC is Senpo Rasengan (non BSM)


Nope. He has FCD.


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 22, 2016)

Whatever fanfictions minato is portrayed well above kimimaro itachi and kisame and destroys them period.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 23, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> Nope. He has FCD.



I don't see FCD killing Kimimaro, considering v tons of sand from Gaara could even hurt him


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 23, 2016)

Troyse22 said:


> I don't see FCD killing Kimimaro,


Idk about killing him, but hed get messed up, FCD incapped 100% kurama temporarily, kimi is dirt by comparison.


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## Dr. White (Dec 23, 2016)

I will do SM Kabuto vs KCM Minato, or Non SM/Genetic enhanced Kabuto vs anyone of match.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 24, 2016)

professor83 said:


> Amaterasu gg and Long range kamui gg only happen in battledome
> Obito survived amaterasu
> So did Karin/hachibi
> So did raikage/danzo
> ...


Last time I checked this is the battledome though.

So you have to get on board with it.

If Amaterasu wasn't a potential one-shot it wouldn't be hyped as hotter than the sun, it wouldn't suffice in stopping Frankenstein Kabuto from pursuing a destroyed Itachi, it wouldn't be the primary weapon in an elite combination jutsu against the strongest entity in existence (Juubi) that Tobirama and Minato, two of the manga's finest shinobi, creamed in their pants over.

-One shotted immortal god level regenerating, FRS-tanking Cerberus that alone was stalemating KCM Naruto
-Forced BM Killer Bee to switch into his severed tentacle to survive, burned down the avatar that canonically survived it's own bijuudama and later 4x the bijuudama from Momoshiki
-Burned through a fire eating frog's stomach leaving Jiraiya dumbfounded
-Burned Senjutsu (CS1) enhanced constant streaming Great Fireball into nothing
-Forced the Raikage, one of the most durable shinobi, to dismember himself to survive the flames
-Forced the strongest entity in existence (Juubi) to remove the part of it's body that was burning from Amaterasu flames
-Technique contributed to Kaguya's (strongest celestial entity) hesitation to enter the ice dimension through fear, and her sealing during the exchange

Reactions: Like 3


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## Serene Grace (Dec 24, 2016)

people actually believe amaterasu's hotter than the sun? Wow, I'm done.


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## Parallaxis (Dec 24, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> people actually believe amaterasu's hotter than the sun? Wow, I'm done.


DaVizWiz said it was HYPED to be as hot as the sun.

But yeah, Amaterasu is supposed to be strong, but many characters had hax to live. (obito Izanagi, Hachibi tentacle kawarimi)


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 24, 2016)

If it were hot as sun sure the fodder samurai would have died
Even bee and all hit by it.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 24, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> DaVizWiz said it was HYPED to be as hot as the sun.
> 
> But yeah, Amaterasu is supposed to be strong, but many characters had hax to live. (obito Izanagi, Hachibi tentacle kawarimi)


Its a great tech i'll admit, but being hotter than the sun is complete and utter bullshit, is also just a complete contradiction to the manga. Hype is completely dead when there are no feats to back it up.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 24, 2016)

PhantomSage said:


> obito *kamui or other methods not izanagi*


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 25, 2016)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> people actually believe amaterasu's hotter than the sun? Wow, I'm done.


Are you laughing at me or your pre school reading comprehension?

"*hyped* to be hotter than the sun"

If the flames were hotter than the sun Enton wouldn't be possible, Sasuke would die the moment he manfiested the flames near himself, being more than twice the temperature of the hottest molten lava

We do know it's hotter than Senjusu enhanced propelled flames, flames that even with basic chakra stop the momentum of propelled massive trap bamboo and nearly completely vaporize them instantaneously

Lava might not even vaporize propelled bamboo of that scale quickly enough to prevent it from reaching Obito in that sitaution, I'm not sure but I'd bet it wouldn't, basic great fireball incinerates at a supernatural rate.

Point being when the author hypes something as hotter than the sun, you probably shouldn't consider it a technique incapable of one-shotting shinobi.

The underestimation of Amaterasu on here by select debaters isn't really acceptable.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 25, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> The *overestimation* of Amaterasu on here by select debaters isn't really acceptable.



ftfy

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 25, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> Are you laughing at me or your pre school reading comprehension?


 ouch. Looks like someone got hurt.



DaVizWiz said:


> *hyped* to be hotter than the sun"


Hype is dead in the face of feats. Itachi was "hyped" to be invincible, Nagato and itachi were "hyped" to be able to beat anyone, Jiraiya was "hyped" to be able to beat kisame and Itachi. I don't give a darn, if anything is "hyped" to do something, all that matters is if that said  "hype" lives up to it's potential, through feats.


DaVizWiz said:


> Point being when the author hypes something as hotter than the sun, you probably shouldn't consider it a technique incapable of one-shotting shinobi.


Well you could be foolish enough to do that, OR you could open your eyes and look at the feats provided.  Amaterasu's hype is clearly dead, due to it's inconsistent feats, which lean to it not being anywhere near the surface of the sun nor does it prove to be as effective as people hype it to be.


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 25, 2016)

> ouch. Looks like got hurt.


I'm not hurt, just annoyed when a poster like you twists my words because you don't agree with the majority opinion.

Unless you actually have preschool level reading comprehension and didn't understand the sentence.

Not only was it not relevant to the thread, you deliberately came in here and only posted two sentences that's only intent was to degrade my intelligence as an individual poster.

Sadly, it backfired, and now everyone either knows you're a blatant liar, or you can't read at an adult level. Pick one.



> Hype is dead in the face of feats. Itachi was "hyped" to be invincible, Nagato and itachi were "hyped" to be able to beat anyone, Jiraiya was "hyped" to be able to beat kisame and Itachi. I don't give a darn, if anything is "hyped" to do something, all that matters is if that said  "hype" lives up to it's potential, through feats.


Why you chose the most extreme hype examples is beyond me.

What about when Minato hyped Obito as a shinobi that you need a special set of skills to take on? You don't agree?

What about when Jiraiya hyped Minato as a prodigy you only see once every 10 years. You don't agree?

What about when Minato hyped Sakumo as Sannin level. You don't think so?

The difference between this in-manga hype, and the Amaterasu hype being hotter than the sun - is one is storyline-based and stated by a character who is subject to lying or misinformation, and the other is written by the author himself outside of the storyline in the databook.

Databook hype is just as if not more credible than the in-story hype, for instance, the three extreme in-story hype examples you provided.



> Well you could be foolish enough to do that, OR you could open your eyes and look at the feats provided.  Amaterasu's hype is clearly dead, due to it's inconsistent feats, which lean to it not being anywhere near the surface of the sun nor does it prove to be as effective as people hype it to be.



It one shotted *BM* Bee forcing him to flee through a severed tentacle, 
*Cerberus* that was taken out of the fight instantly and likely desummoned having previously *tanked FRS *and stalemated KCM Naruto, 
CS2 Sasuke who with his wing alone tanked *multiple C2 pig explosions* at point blank and *stayed on his feet continued fighting *was *forced to rebirth his body *out of his mouth and severely weaken himself to remain in the battle after a *single* Amaterasu bolt hit his *wing* and only his wing, *forcing him to the ground* like a tranqualized horse.

Amaterasu's feats put it in a category where normal shinobi aren't even a one panel challenge.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 26, 2016)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'm not hurt, just annoyed when a poster like you twists my words because you don't agree with the majority opinion.
> 
> Unless you actually have preschool level reading comprehension and didn't understand the sentence.
> 
> ...


It was neither of the two, but my bad if what I said offended you. The main point of my post is that "hype" is dead in the face of feats, though I get what you mean, how the hype that it got from the author gives off the notion that ama is a jutsu to be reckoned with.



DaVizWiz said:


> What about when Minato hyped Obito as a shinobi that you need a special set of skills to take on?


Which was actually true. The only actual way to beat obito is with S/T jutsu or speed, which might be the "special" set of skills he was talking about.



DaVizWiz said:


> What about when Jiraiya hyped Minato as a prodigy you only see once every 10 years. You don't agree?


Which again was true. His feats are what made me think that way, not hype.



DaVizWiz said:


> The difference between this in-manga hype, and the Amaterasu hype being hotter than the sun - is one is storyline-based and stated by a character who is subject to lying or misinformation, and the other is written by the author himself outside of the storyline in the databook.
> 
> Databook hype is just as if not more credible than the in-story hype, for instance, the three extreme in-story hype examples you provided.


Actually the databook's hype is far more contraditory and inconsistent than the manga's. Haku was hyped to be moving at light speed in the databook, itachi was hyped to be invincible in the databook, yata mirror was said to be able to block everything. How is this any different form amaterasu's hotter than the sun hype? All of them are clearly bullshit, hyperbolic statements, so how do they differ. You can't only use the databook, to side with your point.



DaVizWiz said:


> It one shotted BM Bee forcing him to flee through a severed tentacle, Cerberus that was taken out of the fight instantly and likely desummoned having previously tanked FRS and stalemated KCM Naruto, CS2 Sasuke who with his wing alone tanked multiple C2 pig explosions at point blank was forced to rebirth his body out of his mouth and severely weaken himself to remain in the battle after Amaterasu hit his wing and only his wing, forcing him to the ground like a tranqualized horse despite the Senjutsu enhanced armor and overall bodily boost.


Yet you just look at ama's high end feats instead of it's low end ones as well. Was unable to burn Karin's shirt, barely did anything to a fodder samurai, barely burn through the raikage's arm while burning it for a decent time. Amaterasu is a force to be reckoned with, and is a strong jutsu I'll admit though it hasn't done anything to suggest it's top ninjutsu, especially not because of bullshit hype.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 26, 2016)

A jutsu as hot or hotter than the sun only gives Karin a minor burn on her back, with no lasting damage made evident.

A jutsu as hot or hotter than the sun doesn't burn Sasuke, and Sasuke is still capable of substitution.


Amaterasu's feats are inconsistent. It's impossible to have a discussion regarding Amaterasu due to Kishi's outright failure in maintaining consistency with it.

Amaterasu, in my eyes, is only slightly above Madara's stronger Katons, due to inconsistent feats.


To think it's one of the top jutsu's in Naruto is utter madness, and is completely disproven by inconsistent feats.

No need to flood this thread, go into a PM viz and straw

Reactions: Winner 1


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## DaVizWiz (Dec 27, 2016)

> It was neither of the two, but my bad if what I said offended you. The main point of my post is that "hype" is dead in the face of feats, though I get what you mean, how the hype that it got from the author gives off the notion that ama is a jutsu to be reckoned with.


It has a detailed list of high-level features.



> Which was actually true. The only actual way to beat obito is with S/T jutsu or speed, which might be the "special" set of skills he was talking about.


Which means the hype was true.




> Which again was true. His feats are what made me think that way, not hype.


Irrelevant what made YOU think that way, hype was correct.



> Actually the databook's hype is far more contraditory and inconsistent than the manga's. Haku was hyped to be moving at light speed in the databook, itachi was hyped to be invincible in the databook, yata mirror was said to be able to block everything. How is this any different form amaterasu's hotter than the sun hype? All of them are clearly bullshit, hyperbolic statements, so how do they differ. You can't only use the databook, to side with your point.


No it's not, there's just as much shit hype in the manga as there is in the databook.

You yourself just provided 3 in-manga examples of garbage hype, and there's way more.



> Yet you just look at ama's high end feats instead of it's low end ones as well. Was unable to burn Karin's shirt, barely did anything to a fodder samurai, barely burn through the raikage's arm while burning it for a decent time. Amaterasu is a force to be reckoned with, and is a strong jutsu I'll admit though it hasn't done anything to suggest it's top ninjutsu, especially not because of bullshit hype.


[/QUOTE]Yet you only look at the low end features.

I believe high end features > low end features. Kind of like how we take the strongest versions of characters and not the weakest versions and debate them.

Kind of how we take KCM Naruto at his strongest, as apposed to during the majority of the war where he was being outperformed by Base Killer Bee and Might Gai, couldn't even shunshin and was getting blitzed by V2 Jin & overwhelmed by Rinnegan Obito in close quarters requiring the help from two other powerful shinobi to prevent being warped multiple times.

I'll ask you a simple question - do you think Edo V2 Jin are as fast as KCM Naruto, or that KCM Naruto can't handle Rinnegan Obito in CQC? Because based on low-end features, they are as fast as KCM Naruto, and Rinnegan Obito nearly warped KCM Naruto multiple times in CQC and was hitting him with his gunbai.

No one claimed it was a top ninjutsu, yet the presumption that it cannot one shot majority of the verse upon exposure is utterly assinine and needs to stop.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Taking another challenge, will debate

Kisame vs Base Minato
Kisame vs Orochimaru (ET restricted)
Kisame vs Tsunade 
Kisame vs 3rd Raikage
Kisame vs 4th Raikage
Kisame vs EMS Sasuke 

And any other reasonably balanced Kisame vs X threads.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Taking another challenge, will debate
> 
> Kisame vs Base Minato
> Kisame vs Orochimaru (ET restricted)
> ...


How about Kisame vs Nagato? Since you see them as roughly equals, that'd be fun


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> How about Kisame vs Nagato? Since you see them as roughly equals, that'd be fun



In due time, friend.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

Really?  No takers for Kisame vs Minato? Guess the Minato wankers are scared

Like Ponta, Minato isn't with shredding


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## Serene Grace (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Really?  No takers for Kisame vs Minato? Guess the Minato wankers are scared
> 
> Like Ponta, Minato isn't with shredding


I'm ready for a pain vs kisame challengeyouuu?

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I'm ready for a pain vs kisame challengeyouuu?



Pain isn't worth shredding either 

But seriously, I don't really feel like debating Kisame vs Pain at the moment, I was really hoping to debate Kisame vs Minato


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## Serene Grace (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Pain isn't worth shredding either
> 
> But seriously, I don't really feel like debating Kisame vs Pain at the moment, I was really hoping to debate Kisame vs Minato


Nobody wants to do a minato vs kisame matchup, just take the offers you get, lol.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 3, 2017)

I definitely want to see TD&S and T22 settle the grudge that arised between them due to the Kisame vs Pain PM, iirc a couple months ago they were throwing insults at each other and what not (  ) so yeah..


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## Troyse22 (Jan 3, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Nobody wants to do a minato vs kisame matchup, just take the offers you get, lol.



Lol, i'm not going to do something I don't want to for you guys. If nobody wants to debate the matchups I listed, they don't have to, but don't expect me to do a debate I don't want to

As a Jiraiya fanboy once said, you have my apologies, it's right between my index finger and my ring finger


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## Parallaxis (Jan 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Taking another challenge, will debate





Troyse22 said:


> Kisame vs Tsunade


@HandfullofNaruto


Troyse22 said:


> Kisame vs Base Minato


@WorldsStrongest


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 3, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> @HandfullofNaruto
> 
> @WorldsStrongest


Id do this but im ridiculously busy till after my Bday, which is the 18th of this month.

Like half of my massive family was born in January, myself included so we have a lot of get togethers and whatnot after new years.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

I"ll do minato vs kisame

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I"ll do minato vs kisame



Sick, now we just gotta wait for @Sapherosth to make the thread.

Location: Open field
Knowledge: Kisame knows of Hiraishin and seals, Minato knows of Waterdome and Daikodan
Distance:25m
Restrictions: None


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Sick, now we just gotta wait for @Sapherosth to make the thread.
> 
> Location: Open field
> Knowledge: Kisame knows of Hiraishin and seals, Minato knows of Waterdome and Daikodan
> ...


Restrictions : kurama


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Restrictions : kurama



I assumed this was base Minato but okay


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I"ll do minato vs kisame


Represent @professor83!!!

Make me proud


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

@Sapherosth pls


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Represent @professor83!!!
> 
> Make me proud




Prepare to be disappointed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Do you still want the match? 

@Troyse22  and @professor83


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Prepare to be disappointed.


Well, good luck either way troy


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Prepare to be disappointed.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Do you still want the match?
> 
> @Troyse22  and @professor83




Yes


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

Either way, good luck to both contestants.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Either way, good luck to both contestants.



Thanks, hope you guys enjoy the match. Hopefully I can change some people's opinions!

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 4, 2017)

Good luck to @Troyse22 and @professor83
may the best debater win.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

I'm interested to see this since I am of the belief that Kisame can win in certain scenarios. but let's see how this goes!

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 4, 2017)

I feel like this debate is gonna be a turning point in the history of the NBD


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I feel like this debate is gonna be a turning point in the history of the NBD



It will be, this should diffuse the Minato wank. But I guess there's no shame in Minato losing to Kisame, after all, Kisame is a tier and a half above Minato


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Just make sure it lasts more than 1 or two posts this time. I don't like spending my time to create threads where participants don't put in any effort.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Just make sure it lasts more than 1 or two posts this time. I don't like spending my time to create threads where participants don't put in any effort.




What do you mean I put a ton of effort into my last debate


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## Sapherosth (Jan 4, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> What do you mean I put a ton of effort into my last debate



That's good, keep it up!

My post was targeted at those who asked for a match but don't post anything in them.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> That's good, keep it up!
> 
> My post was targeted at those who asked for a match but don't post anything in them.



You hear that @UchihaX28 ?!?!?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame vs Tsunade


Its about damn time - lets get to it.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Its about damn time - lets get to it.



I would, but i've already started a Kisame vs Minato debate.

It's probably a good thing, I want to delay your humiliation for as long as possible lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I would, but i've already started a Kisame vs Minato debate.


damn I'm always late 


> It's probably a good thing, I want to delay your humiliation for as long as possible lol


how thoughtful - I just figured you were running from the debate for the umpteenth time knowing Tsunade would wreck his shit.  

*Since Troyse22 is too scared (as per usual) anybody up for a Tsunade vs ________ ???*

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> damn I'm always late  how thoughtful - I just figured you were running from the debate for the umpteenth time knowing Tsunade would wreck his shit.
> 
> *Since Troyse22 is too scared (as per usual) anybody up for a Tsunade vs ________ ???*



You know I would do a debate with Konan but it's most likely gonna end up being more like Katsuyu vs Konan instead of tsunade vs konan

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> You know I would do a debate with Konan but it's most likely gonna end up being more like Katsuyu vs Konan instead of tsunade vs konan


Kaysuyu Sama solos
She can beat even the likes of itachi mid-diff


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## Troyse22 (Jan 5, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Since Troyse22 is too scared



As if Kisame vs Tsunade is a hard debate for me 

You're just annoying is all.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> You know I would do a debate with Konan but it's most likely gonna end up being more like Katsuyu vs Konan instead of tsunade vs konan



The end result is the same

Itachi negs


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 5, 2017)

Katsuyu is so overrated it's not even funny but once again I'm up for a debate for Tsunade VS Konan and not over using the whole Katsuyu solos


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## Parallaxis (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> As if Kisame vs Tsunade is a hard debate for me
> 
> You're just annoying is all.



Fixed.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Katsuyu is so overrated it's not even funny but once again I'm up for a debate for Tsunade VS Konan and not over using the whole Katsuyu solos


Except Zesshi Nensan can dissolve and melt her in her paper form.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 5, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Except Zesshi Nensan can dissolve and melt her in her paper form.



I'm well aware of that, that's why I'm saying this will end up being a Katsuyu vs Konan battle not a 1v1 battle with Tsunade


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 5, 2017)

Katsuyu- Solo Goddesses
Prime Hiruzen- Solo God


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 5, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Katsuyu- Solo Goddesses
> Prime Hiruzen- Solo God



Haha that should be a battle


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## Parallaxis (Jan 5, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Katsuyu- Solo Goddesses
> Prime Hiruzen- Solo God


Anyone else remember the times when professor83 wanked Teuchi? 

Good days, good days.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 5, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Haha that should be a battle


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 5, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Anyone else remember the times when professor83 wanked Teuchi?
> 
> Good days, good days.



*Spoiler*: __ 









*Spoiler*: __ 







The bettle between Prime Hiruzen and teuchi would most likely be a stalemate but that battle would likely destroy the universe

Reactions: Funny 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 5, 2017)

So
@HandfullofNaruto 
You up for the debate?...

*Tsunade* the Slug Princess VS *Konan* the Angel of Amegakure

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 5, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> As if Kisame vs Tsunade is a hard debate for me
> 
> You're just annoying is all.


dude if the debate is simple just get it over with its not as if I'm scared to concede - I _actually_ take debates to their ends I don't just give up: 
*Spoiler*: _If somebody said this to Troyse22 how would he react?_ 





Troyse22 said:


> And i'm kind of losing interest in the debate, but i'll take a quick look and give a half assed response in a bit.








NightingaleOfShadows said:


> So
> @HandfullofNaruto
> You up for the debate?...
> 
> *Tsunade* the Slug Princess VS *Konan* the Angel of Amegakure


I'll think about it - will get back to you soon.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 5, 2017)

Onoki or Muu vs Kisame? @Troyse22

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 5, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Onoki or Muu vs Kisame? @Troyse22


INB4 Troyse22 Arguments
Jinton < Daikodan
Flying < 1,000 Sharks / Waterdome
Samehada can taste Mu's Chakra even though nobody can sense him.
oh and Suiton > Doton  
__ really though either one of them just makes Samehada or Kisame himself too heavy to move via Weight Manipulation.

Reactions: Winner 3


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> INB4 Troyse22 Arguments
> Jinton < Daikodan
> Flying < 1,000 Sharks / Waterdome
> Samehada can taste Mu's Chakra even though nobody can sense him.
> ...


Well jinton is chakra, and daikodan can absorb indra arrows, so it would only make sense that it can absorb jinton

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> INB4 Troyse22 Arguments
> Jinton < Daikodan
> Flying < 1,000 Sharks / Waterdome
> Samehada can taste Mu's Chakra even though nobody can sense him.
> ...



Kisame can canonically sense chakra through his skin when merged with Samehada.

He'd sense Muu in invisibility.

Samehada absorbs Jinton.

Kisame high diffs Muu and mid diffs Onoki


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## Parallaxis (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame can canonically sense chakra through his skin when merged with Samehada.
> 
> He'd sense Muu in invisibility.


Um..
A division of sensors legitimately tried to sense him and failed. It doesn't help that the manga itself states he can't be sensed. He has to run around until he touches Muu.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Um..
> A division of sensors legitimately tried to sense him and failed. It doesn't help that the manga itself states he can't be sensed. He has to run around until he touches Muu.



Kisames sensory abilities while merged exceed fodder sensors.

Nice try though.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisames sensory abilities while merged exceed fodder sensors.
> 
> Nice try though.


It's been stated already that Muu once in invisible state has no detectable form of chakra, and they needed Gaara's special sensory sand that Muu stepped on to track him. Nice try though.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> It's been stated already that Muu once in invisible state has no detectable form of chakra, and they needed Gaara's special sensory sand that Muu stepped on to track him. Nice try though.



Kisame floods the area with Waterdome then, Muu drowns.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame floods the area with Waterdome then, Muu drowns.


Okay. 
I'm not here to get in muu vs Kisame debate, just pointing out that I doubt he can sense Muu.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Kisame floods the area with Waterdome then, Muu drowns.



Make this a thread instead of doing a debate here


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## Serene Grace (Jan 6, 2017)

Shinobi HQ sensor couldn't sense Muu, and Samehada can? Lmfao @Troyse22 accept my Muu vs Kisame match please, I beg of you.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 6, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Shinobi HQ sensor couldn't sense Muu, and Samehada can? Lmfao @Troyse22 accept my Muu vs Kisame match please, I beg of you.




I would, but you currently seem obnoxious, change your attitude and maybe I will accept

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 7, 2017)

@WorldsStrongest any chance you're up for a Healthy Orochimaru vs Deidara debate?? Maybe something like:

*Location*: Sasuke vs Deidara
*Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Restrictions*: None
*Stipulations*: Orochimaru is restricted to Part 1 Edo Tensei / Deidara has a full bag of clay

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Jan 7, 2017)

@Troyse22 gimme a no or yes, don't just leave me hanging fham. Do you accept the Muu vs Kisame challenge?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 8, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Troyse22 gimme a no or yes, don't just leave me hanging fham. Do you accept the Muu vs Kisame challenge?



I've said before i'm not doing 2 debates at once, that hasn't changed.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @WorldsStrongest any chance you're up for a Healthy Orochimaru vs Deidara debate?? Maybe something like:
> 
> *Location*: Sasuke vs Deidara
> *Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
> ...


I have no time for debates this month at all sadly, lots of family stuff going on.

Otherwise id be down.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 8, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @WorldsStrongest any chance you're up for a Healthy Orochimaru vs Deidara debate?? Maybe something like:
> 
> *Location*: Sasuke vs Deidara
> *Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
> ...


@PhantomSage you should do this.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 8, 2017)

professor83 said:


> @PhantomSage you should do this.


I'd be up for it, but I need to wrap up my debate with t0xeus.
most of my posts now ar from mobile, and I'm too lazy i havn't found much time to write a rebuttal for that as of recently.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I'm too lazy i havn't found much time to write a rebuttal for that as of recently.



I know that feel, laptop sitting there with half my rebuttal for Kisame vs Minato and can't find the motivation to finish lol

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I'd be up for it, but I need to wrap up my debate with t0xeus.
> most of my posts now ar from mobile, and I'm too lazy i havn't found much time to write a rebuttal for that as of recently.



No he's cheating with kirin


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## Parallaxis (Jan 8, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> No he's cheating with kirin


Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 8, 2017)

Inb4 the "Deidara does a totally OOC C2 spam overcome oral rebirth"

Orochimaru trashes this fool


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?



Youre in a relationship and now your cheating with kirin... shame on you

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 the "Deidara does a totally OOC C2 spam overcome oral rebirth"
> 
> Orochimaru trashes this fool


Inb4 the he actually used C2 in rapid succession before in canon
C4 oneshots him.




NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Youre in a relationship and now your cheating with kirin... shame on you


Wtf?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 8, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Inb4 the he actually used C2 in rapid succession before in canon
> C4 oneshots him.



I seent it


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 the "Deidara does a totally OOC C2 spam overcome oral rebirth"


Spoilers, deidara can spam C2, its not at all OOC...He does it so much in fact, this entire chapter is named after C2.

He nukes sasuke the hell down the entire time he has his dragon out, fires a boat load of C2 bombs, not remotely OOC to say deidara would spam oro down the same way. 

Not even counting the mines.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 9, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> C4 oneshots him.


I dont think so. With multiple summons and/or clones on the field + his well above average intelligence he'd be prepared to counter with LAC or Manda who should stand well above that cloud of bombs .. there is also a good chance that Orochimaru will end this battle before Deidara has a chance to pull out C4 just sayin
>>>>>>>><<<
once you finish up your debate I hope you consider Oro vs Dei with me .. just sounds like a fun debate

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 9, 2017)

Orochimaru does leach all creation as soon as he sees big deidara if he has knowledge tho oro should finish it well before that
Bringer of darkness gg

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 9, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I dont think so. With multiple summons and/or clones on the field + his well above average intelligence he'd be prepared to counter with LAC or Manda who should stand well above that cloud of bombs .. there is also a good chance that Orochimaru will end this battle before Deidara has a chance to pull out C4 just sayin
> >>>>>>>><<<
> once you finish up your debate I hope you consider Oro vs Dei with me .. just sounds like a fun debate


Yeah, it's a pretty close battle.
Who's that guy at the end behind Kisame?

edit
nvm its Tsunade


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## Troyse22 (Jan 9, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I dont think so. With multiple summons and/or clones on the field + his well above average intelligence he'd be prepared to counter with LAC or Manda who should stand well above that cloud of bombs .. there is also a good chance that Orochimaru will end this battle before Deidara has a chance to pull out C4 just sayin
> >>>>>>>><<<
> once you finish up your debate I hope you consider Oro vs Dei with me .. just sounds like a fun debate



Lold when I saw Kisame below the Sannin. Only reason Kisame is below Oro is due to Hokage ET.

Tsunade is trash in comparison. No exceptional speed feats. She attacks in a linear, predictable way and anyone who's serious and worth their salt can casually dodge just about everything she throws out.

Katsuyu is literally the only thing that makes Tsunade discussionworthy. Anytime someone debated for Tsunade it always turns out to be Katsuyu vs X because Tsunade herself is pretty trash


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 9, 2017)

Healthy Oro wins against kisame more times then not even without Edo
Poison by passes kisames durability
Leach all creation to deal with kisames suiton
Various boss summons to pressure kisame
Rashomon to take daikodon, oro should tank it None the less
Manda to take him out of water dome
Extending kusanagi and yamato no orichi
Curse mark to paralyze 
Mandara no jin to overwhelm kisame

Since orochimaru mostly relies on those curse mark physical attacks poison and boss summons he will be a horrible match for kisame

Tsunade and Kisame is debatable tho

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 9, 2017)

What has my thread become?

Reactions: Funny 4


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Lold when I saw Kisame below the Sannin. Only reason Kisame is below Oro is due to Hokage ET.


Hes also below Jman cuz of SM

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Idiopodivny (Jan 10, 2017)

Someone please debate me XD. I can make a damn good case for Hiruzen, Tsunade, or Sakura.

Reactions: Like 2


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

Idiopodivny said:


> Someone please debate me XD. I can make a damn good case for Hiruzen, Tsunade, or Sakura.


Any chance you're up for Kabuto vs Sakura maybe something like:

Medic Battle
*Location*: Sasuke vs Deidara
*Starting Distance*: 25 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Version*: Pre-War Sakura / Pre-Orochi Kabuto
*Restrictions / Stipulations*: 

Katsuyu / Snake Summons


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 10, 2017)

Any one hiruzen vs .........


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## Idiopodivny (Jan 10, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Any chance you're up for Kabuto vs Sakura maybe something like:
> 
> Medic Battle
> *Location*: Sasuke vs Deidara
> ...



Sure, this should be a great matchup. By Pre-Orochi Kabuto you mean before he started doing body modifications right?

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 10, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Any one hiruzen vs .........


 Prime or old?


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 10, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Prime or old?


Prime


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

Idiopodivny said:


> Sure, this should be a great matchup. By Pre-Orochi Kabuto you mean before he started doing body modifications right?


Alright sounds good and yes that is what I mean by pre-orochi -- ill create the thread @Sapherosth

Reactions: Like 2


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 10, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Prime


Im debating on who i should pick to battle hiruzen


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## Troyse22 (Jan 10, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Im debating on who i should pick to battle hiruzen



Kaguya is the only one who can survive for longer than 30 seconds against prime hiruzen.

So i'd say Kaguya.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> longer than 30 seconds


stop wanking kaguya

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 10, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Im debating on who i should pick to battle hiruzen


maybe Naruto vs Hiruzen??


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## Icegaze (Jan 11, 2017)

Interesting


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## Parallaxis (Jan 11, 2017)

My rebuttal for Hiruzen vs Hebi Sasuke is up.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 13, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> maybe Naruto vs Hiruzen??



What version of naruto?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 13, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> What version of naruto?



VOTE II Naruto is the only one who survives longer than 5 seconds against Hiruzen


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 13, 2017)

How about the gold and silver brothers?
Basically takes Tobirama's place in this fight


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

I just read through the Sakura vs. Kabuto debate.

I have to say I would enjoy these low kage level bouts, like what @HandfullofNaruto and @Idiopodivny are doing because there are not as many factors to consider. Take into example, HoN's intro, he compared their portrayal, and gave one simple strategy as to how Kabuto would win. I don't have much time these days, but I would be up from debating a lower level matchup due to quickness of intros + rebuttals because of there not being as many factors.

So, I'd be up for the following if anyone wants to debate me.

*Itachi vs. Hidan*
Location: Zabuza vs Kakashi (Bridge)
Distance: 10m
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: MS, genjutsu

I'll be arguing for Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

I can see you're lurking this thread @NightingaleOfShadows 
You up for Restricted Itachi vs Hidan? (I'll be arguing for Itachi )

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I can see you're lurking this thread @NightingaleOfShadows
> You up for Restricted Itachi vs Hidan? (I'll be arguing for Itachi )




Haha interesting battle ...I'll have to think about this one, I'm a little busy at the moment but I'll definitely get back on this

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I just read through the Sakura vs. Kabuto debate.
> 
> I have to say I would enjoy these low kage level bouts, like what @HandfullofNaruto and @Idiopodivny are doing because there are not as many factors to consider. Take into example, HoN's intro, he compared their portrayal, and gave one simple strategy as to how Kabuto would win. I don't have much time these days, but I would be up from debating a lower level matchup due to quickness of intros + rebuttals because of there not being as many factors.
> 
> ...




Itachi eventually gets cut and dies, without MS or genjutsu, he has nothing to put Hidan down.

Reactions: Disagree 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Itachi eventually gets cut and dies, without MS or genjutsu, he has nothing to put Hidan down.


Debate me and we will see. 
and lmfao at Hidan being able to cut itachi, who was blitzing Sasuke and keeping up with SM Kabuto in CQC when 3T Kakashi was parrying hidan's strikes.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I just read through the Sakura vs. Kabuto debate.
> 
> I have to say I would enjoy these low kage level bouts, like what @HandfullofNaruto and @Idiopodivny are doing because there are not as many factors to consider. Take into example, HoN's intro, he compared their portrayal, and gave one simple strategy as to how Kabuto would win. I don't have much time these days, but I would be up from debating a lower level matchup due to quickness of intros + rebuttals because of there not being as many factors.
> 
> ...


I wanted to argue for the king . Doubt you can defend hidan even with these conditions


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## Troyse22 (Jan 14, 2017)

Inb4 Kunai decapitation fanfic


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 Kunai decapitation fanfic


Wow...
Itachi has parried DSM Kabuto's chakra scapel which is more than enough to decapitate someone..
He could also attach explosive tags and blow him up as per canon...

And Hidan isn't cutting him when 3T Kakashi was matching him in CQC, Itachi has kept up and blitzed Hebi Sasuke, someone tiers above Hidan in terms of reactions, and has kept up with DSM Kabuto in CQC.

Or he can just troll him by avoiding all his attacks, and eventually wearing him out with kunai and Katon enhanced shuriken jutsu. He is immortal, but he can't regen. If you cut off his arms or damage them beyond use he's helpless.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I wanted to argue for the king . Doubt you can defend hidan even with these conditions


Yeah the more I think about it Itachi solos 
*Would you be up for Darui vs. Asuma?*

Location: Kakashi vs Zabuza bridge
Distance: 25 meters
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga

I'd prefer arguing for Darui if that okay w/ you.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Wow...
> Itachi has parried DSM Kabuto's chakra scapel which is more than enough to decapitate someone..
> He could also attach explosive tags and blow him up as per canon...
> 
> ...



Yeah you basically summed it up lol Itachi would win mid-diff

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Yeah you basically summed it up lol Itachi would win mid-diff


You up for Darui vs Asuma?
Location: Kakashi vs Zabuza bridge
Distance: 25 meters
Mindset: IC
Knowledge: Manga

I'd prefer arguing for Darui if that okay w/ you.

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> You up for Darui vs Asuma?
> Location: Kakashi vs Zabuza bridge
> Distance: 25 meters
> Mindset: IC
> ...



What version of Darui?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> What version of Darui?


War Arc.
So not Kage Darui in Boruto Movie.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> War Arc.
> So not Kage Darui in Boruto Movie.


 
Alright let's do it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Alright let's do it


I'm arguing for Darui, right?

@Sapherosth make the thread

Reactions: Like 1


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I'm arguing for Darui, right?
> 
> @Sapherosth make the thread



Yes and I'm Asuma


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## Parallaxis (Jan 14, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Yes and I'm Asuma


Also gonna tag @HandfullofNaruto since he is a TBCA admin and he can create the threads too

Reactions: Like 3


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 14, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Also gonna tag @HandfullofNaruto since he is a TBCA admin and he can create the threads too



Alright  this should be interesting

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 14, 2017)

I will create the thread
@Sapherosth 
@NightingaleOfShadows 
@PhantomSage

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 15, 2017)

Hidan is well above itachi 
Who thinks otherwise 
He trolls gênjutsu because he can just look away or throw blood in itachi eyes


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

holy crap
i took up another debate but i got my hands full with school and have to study for a quiz.
so my intro will be delayed by a couple days


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> throw blood in itachi eyes


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 15, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> holy crap
> i took up another debate but i got my hands full with school and have to study for a quiz.
> so my intro will be delayed by a couple days



Haha np I have work today so we're even


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Haha np I have work today so we're even


Hey since i don't have much time for an extended debate
let's just each have an intro, then one rebuttal and then it's done. SInce i don't want to go on and on like previous debates


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 15, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Hey since i don't have much time for an extended debate
> let's just each have an intro, then one rebuttal and then it's done. SInce i don't want to go on and on like previous debates



Ok um when will we be doing the intro and rebuttal? Today for another day?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Hey since i don't have much time for an extended debate
> let's just each have an intro, then one rebuttal and then it's done. SInce i don't want to go on and on like previous debates



Weak. Why not just delete the thread?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Ok um when will we be doing the intro and rebuttal? Today for another day?


There is no time limit, you can do it whenever you like.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Weak. Why not just delete the thread?



It's not weak, the first couple of BD debates where only limited to 2 posts the intro and the rebuttal


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> It's not weak, the first couple of BD debates where only limited to 2 posts the intro and the rebuttal



Read the rules of TBCA


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 15, 2017)

There should be a time limit to debates actually . You dont want a rebuttal coming in a month or so.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Read the rules of TBCA


I doubt most people would be interested in viewing a dranw out debate, so this is probably for the best. 
If more posts are required then I'll just have to do it then


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Jan 15, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Read the rules of TBCA



O I meant the NBDT :|


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## Troyse22 (Jan 15, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I doubt most people would be interested in viewing a dranw out debate, so this is probably for the best.
> If more posts are required then I'll just have to do it then



People seemed to be interested in the Kisame vs Jiraiya debate....although I think that was more about HOPING to see me get shut down  (based on it being the most viewed TBCA debate by far)

Longer debates give the participants chances to address everything, and leave nothing overlooked.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 15, 2017)

The debates are only intended for you to showcase everything you can about your character and why he/she wins. If there's no further points to make then just announce the end of the debate.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2017)

Free to debate against anyone 
Two man team debates ?

Shikamaru + chouji vs people of similar level

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 16, 2017)

Icegaze said:


> Shikamaru + chouji vs people of similar level



So like...Himawari and Boruto...?


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## Icegaze (Jan 16, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> So like...Himawari and Boruto...?



Not enoUgh feats from them though 
but yh something along those lines 
Shikamaru + chouji vs kiba +Hinata


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 19, 2017)

Anybody up for a Choji & Choza vs __________ ?? 
Edit: never mind


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Anybody up for a Choji & Choza vs __________ ??
> Edit: never mind



Given Kishi's love for making the new generation surpass the old, War Arc Choji should be slightly above his father.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Given Kishi's love for making the new generation surpass the old, War Arc Choji should be slightly above his father.


I suppose - I wanted to debate with them as a team but I'm just gonna make a Gauntlet for them instead


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## Serene Grace (Jan 19, 2017)

Anyone up for Zabuza vs Asuma? I'd be arguing for Zabuzaof course.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Anyone up for Zabuza vs Asuma? I'd be arguing for Zabuzaof course.



Hiding in mist, silent killing gg


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## Parallaxis (Jan 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Hiding in mist, silent killing gg


Asuma blows away the mist with Futon or evaporates it with Burning Ash Pile.
there are counters that asuma has.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Asuma blows away the mist with Futon or evaporates it with Burning Ash Pile.
> there are counters that asuma has.




He's dead before he weaves a sign.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> He's dead before he weaves a sign.


extremely baseless statement
and depending on the location and distance
zabuza isn't "lol blitzing" him before he can make a sign

but hey, guess hidan is going to hit 3t itachi despite him keeping up with sm kabuto and blitzing hebi sasuke too right?


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 19, 2017)

Asuma is the son of prime hiruzen

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 19, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Asuma is the son of prime hiruzen



Well shit, can't argue with authentic scans

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Asuma is the son of prime hiruzen


The "Prime" gene skips a generation tho, everyone knows that

Thats why Asuma was a massive letdown.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> The "Prime" gene skips a generation tho, everyone knows that
> 
> Thats why Asuma was a massive letdown.


They are the one who have to be killed for the plot so that main characters shine


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 20, 2017)

professor83 said:


> They are the one who have to be killed for the plot so that main characters shine


"Prime" Asuma got clowned by Hidan

He brings shame to the "Prime" clan


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## Troyse22 (Jan 20, 2017)

Hiruzen Saruprimey


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 20, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> "Prime" Asuma got clowned by Hidan
> 
> He brings shame to the "Prime" clan


There is only prime Hiruzen
Asuma died because he had already send his prime gene inside of kurenai 

Wait until Mirai/Konohamaru starts to Solo

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 21, 2017)

Izaya (Oro) vs Troyse (Kisame)

Someone set it up


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Izaya (Oro) vs Troyse (Kisame)
> 
> Someone set it up


Is izaya returning?


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## Troyse22 (Jan 21, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Is izaya returning?



He should for this battle


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Izaya (Oro) vs Troyse (Kisame)
> 
> Someone set it up





			
				IzayaOrihara said:
			
		

> I'm not interested in a debate with someone who doesn't understand the manga.


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## Troyse22 (Jan 21, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


>



Really reaching aren't you?

But, I suppose these senseless provocations is one of the reason you're one of trash of the nbd

Reactions: Funny 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 21, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Really reaching aren't you?


You don't remember? He read our Minato vs Itachi PM debate () and said that you should be ignored. He had no tolerance for Itachi Fanboyism and "Itachi > Minato Tsukuyomi GG/Susano GG you need to restrict his arms and legs to give Minato a chance" is Itachi Fanboyism. He wouldn't even debate with @Sapherosth who I think is a very reasonable Itachi supporter. 





> But, I suppose these senseless provocations is one of the reason you're one of trash of the nbd


Yea maybe - I'm going to take the low hanging fruit because I'm a lazy person. 

If you want - Izaya has legit given me permission to debate on his behalf when it comes to Orochimaru (ask @cctr9, @LAZLOLAZZING or @Isaiah13000) - ill take the debate off his hands we can do Orochimaru vs Kisame and ill even take it seriously .. what do you say or are you going to shy away from the debate *again*?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 21, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> He read our Minato vs Itachi PM debate ()


Invite please? 

Fortunately for troyse, Izaya has left the forums. 
Otherwise, Troyse would get thrashed with a 50k word essay


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 21, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Invite please?


of course


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## Troyse22 (Jan 21, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Fortunately for Izaya, Izaya has left the forums.





PhantomSage said:


> Otherwise, Izaya would get thrashed with a 100k word essay



ftfy


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 21, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Fortunately for troyse, Izaya has left the forums.
> Otherwise, Troyse would get thrashed with a 50k word essay


He would shit those out in 30 minutes or less -- no doubt Oro > Kisame can be covered in a neat 1k for him


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> You don't remember? He read our Minato vs Itachi PM debate () and said that you should be ignored. He had no tolerance for Itachi Fanboyism and "Itachi > Minato Tsukuyomi GG/Susano GG you need to restrict his arms and legs to give Minato a chance" is Itachi Fanboyism. He wouldn't even debate with @Sapherosth who I think is a very reasonable Itachi supporter. Yea maybe - I'm going to take the low hanging fruit because I'm a lazy person.
> 
> If you want - Izaya has legit given me permission to debate on his behalf when it comes to Orochimaru (ask @cctr9, @LAZLOLAZZING or @Isaiah13000) - ill take the debate off his hands we can do Orochimaru vs Kisame and ill even take it seriously .. what do you say or are you going to shy away from the debate *again*?


Invite me as well.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 21, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Invite me as well.


Me too


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 21, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Me too





professor83 said:


> Invite me as well.


consider it done
anyone else?

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Ayala (Jan 21, 2017)

professor83 said:


> Asuma is the son of prime hiruzen


 
Isn't that my E̶d̶i̶t̶ of the Asuma thread  im honored

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 21, 2017)

oetsuthebest said:


> Isn't that my E̶d̶i̶t̶ of the Asuma thread  im honored


Yes Sir. 
Prime hirzuens gene solos

Reactions: Like 2


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## Ayala (Jan 21, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> consider it done
> anyone else?



 Me too pls


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## Troyse22 (Jan 24, 2017)

2-3 days until the Kisame vs Pein debate, hype!

Can make it whenever but soonest i'll be participating is thursday night


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## Parallaxis (Jan 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 2-3 days until the Kisame vs Pein debate, hype!
> 
> Can make it whenever but soonest i'll be participating is thursday night


Can't wait.


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## Ishmael (Jan 24, 2017)

Garbage.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 2-3 days until the *Kisame vs Pein* debate, hype!
> 
> Can make it whenever but soonest i'll be participating is thursday night


Waiting for this . I dont  think kisame has chance

*Spoiler*: __


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## Serene Grace (Jan 25, 2017)

These debaters aren't about what character wins, there about who argues the best for their position.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> 2-3 days until the Kisame vs Pein debate, hype!
> Can make it whenever but soonest i'll be participating is thursday night


@Sapherosth - I will create this thread

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

@Sapherosth
@HandfullofNaruto

We need to have a voting time span, otherwise the voting period would just go on forever. It should be when both contestants come to a consensus that they have said everything they have needed to and then voting starts for maybe 7 days (or any other time period).

Another option would be to get 3 unbiased judges and each of them cast a vote. That's how they decide the debates over there at NB at least

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> @Sapherosth
> @HandfullofNaruto
> 
> We need to have a voting time span, otherwise the voting period would just go on forever. It should be when both contestants come to a consensus that they have said everything they have needed to and then voting starts for maybe 7 days (or any other time period).
> ...




I don't really think a judge is absolutely needed, but it would give participants an idea of how good/bad their arguments are. 


Plus finding 3 regular judge who will vote in every match is difficult.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I don't really think a judge is absolutely needed, but it would give participants an idea of how good/bad their arguments are.
> 
> 
> Plus finding 3 regular judge who will vote in every match is difficult.





PhantomSage said:


> @Sapherosth
> @HandfullofNaruto
> 
> We need to have a voting time span, otherwise the voting period would just go on forever. It should be when both contestants come to a consensus that they have said everything they have needed to and then voting starts for maybe 7 days (or any other time period).
> ...


I agree with Sapherosth - finding dedicated unbiased judges may be difficult .. perhaps the two participants can decide how they would like the voting to play out .. they can just slip it in with their request and we would add the rule to their thread. If someone wants Judges then they let us know - even better they can find their own Judges for the debate.. though I wouldn't mind helping out with that..

Where Judges are concerned I can go either way but as for the time limit I think you're right seven days of voting seems appropriate and maybe we can even offer extensions if they don't want to close it that early. I say we leave it up to the participants to decide how voting goes then as the hand of god me and sapherosth would/could just add it into their thread ..  seems reasonable


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## Sapherosth (Jan 27, 2017)

How about we do a tournament for judges? Hahaha.

Not an ACTUAL debating tournament, but a judging tournament where we find the best judges for the TBCA.

Here's what I am thinking -

1. I create a new thread with a scenario in place, for example how Itachi decimates Orochimaru 
2. Anyone who wants to be a dedicated judge for TBCA goes in and *JUDGE* my argument for Itachi.
3. We select 3 Judges with the MOST LIKES and maybe have 1 more as a reserve judge.

OR - You can suggest the names of who you want to nominate as the TBCA judge, basing it from their votes from the last tournament etc.

How does that sound?


@PhantomSage @HandfullofNaruto    - I feel like I should tag everyone in case they want to try out as a judge but I can't remember anybody's name.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> OR - You can suggest the names of who you want to nominate as the TBCA judge, basing it from their votes from the last tournament etc.


This sounds better.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> How about we do a tournament for judges? Hahaha.
> 
> Not an ACTUAL debating tournament, but a judging tournament where we find the best judges for the TBCA.
> 
> ...


*Those who may be interested in being a TBCA Judge*:

@WorldsStrongest
@Turrin
@UchihaX28
@PhantomSage
@professor83 
@Bonly
@UchihaX28
@Idiopodivny 
@DaVizWiz 
@Dr. White 
@Veracity
@UchihaX28


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> 1. I create a new thread with a scenario in place, for example how Itachi decimates an Orochimaru with no killing intent in a failing body


ftfy -  - you know what though now that some time has passed I am right back on the fence about that battle and the portrayal - meh.


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

Okay, it seemlike this shit is taking off so ill just go with it.

The three judges should be appointed for a thread and if one of the contestants is dissatisfied they can PM one of the TBCA admins (HoN / Saph) to request that they be removed.

The judges are required to give a detailed analysis on each matchup before they vote (Similar to Turrin in the last debate tourney).


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 27, 2017)

@HandfullofNaruto

I'll be able to judge or participate? I mean, how could I resist when you had the decency to tag me three times?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

Oh no, there can be different judges for different matches. For example, Saph, HoN, and WS might be judging one matchup while three others judge another ongoing debate.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @HandfullofNaruto





UchihaX28 said:


> I'll be able to judge. I mean, how could I resist when you had the decency to tag me three times?


I knew it would work - when I initially tagged you it had "(I hope you become a judge)" next to your name but I was like fuck it ill just tag him three times.. he'll get the message. 



PhantomSage said:


> Okay, it seemlike this shit is taking off so ill just go with it.





PhantomSage said:


> The three judges should be appointed for a thread and if one of the contestants is dissatisfied they can PM one of the TBCA admins (HoN / Saph) to request that they be removed.
> 
> The judges are required to give a detailed analysis on each matchup before they vote (Similar to Turrin in the last debate tourney).


Sounds good to me.

You know what while I'm here on this thread and some of the best members (peeps ive tagged) are on their way who is up for a debate?


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

@Troyse22 @The Death & The Strawberry the Strawberry
If we really want this concept of having 3judges analyzing and voting instead of voters to start I say we do it on the Kisame vs pein debate which is very controversial as of now. (If Sapherosth is okay with it)

UchihaX28 has not shown any bias against either of the contestants, so imo he'd be up for judging that.

I'll do it as well if both contestants are ok.

HoN seems relatively unbiased too.

Reactions: Like 1 | Useful 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> HoN seems relatively unbiased too.


I already see the snarky comment from @Troyse22 - don't hold back .. 


I cant - just look at my sig. While I'm totally up for it and would vote 100% honest I know Troyse will feel uncomfortable with it which is pretty understandable lol.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I cant - just look at my sig. While I'm totally up for it and would vote 100% honest I know Troyse will feel uncomfortable with it which is pretty understandable lol.


Veracity doesnt have any beef with Troyse iirc.

In fact I might not even be a good candidate for judging that match myself because troyse and i have had spats in the past. Dr white or turrin would be a better choice

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Veracity doesnt have any beef with Troyse iirc.





PhantomSage said:


> In fact I might not even be a good candidate for judging that match myself because troyse and i have had spats in the past. Dr white or turrin would be a better choice


didn't he nominate you though (I could be mistaken)? - he may not be completely against your participation. Honestly for a thread this delicate I would say the most appropriate Judge line up would be:

@UchihaX28
@Veracity (don't know how they feel about this though)
@Turrin (don't know how they feel about this though)
all three could judge this with a clear head imo

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Useful 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> didn't he nominate you though (I could be mistaken)? - he may not be completely against your participation. Honestly for a thread this delicate I would say the most appropriate Judge line up would be:
> 
> @UchihaX28
> @Veracity (don't know how they feel about this though)
> ...


that looks good.
So basically those three will give a very detailed analysis and give their vote instead of the usual where anyone can come in and vote.

If they are okay with judging this and Saph gives the heads up I say we do it.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Winner 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

TD tild me that he is okay with having his match judged. How about you @Troyse22?

to reiterate
the three judges must be approved by both debaters and must then give their analysid and their vote AFTER both debaters are done

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2017)

I'd honestly be down to participate as a judge. I don't really have any beef with anyone on these forums. My format might be ugly af when I make my posts though 

The downside to constant mobile usage

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Jan 27, 2017)

What do you guys think about the judges using a pre-established voting criteria?

Just so we have some consistency....


Analysis (The level of thinking and analysis)
Creativity (The creativity)
Structure (The structure/flow of argument/Visually appealing)
Factual (Are they using logical/factual contents from the manga?)
Persuasiveness (How persuasive were they? Did they convince you?)

On the basis of S, A, B, C (+/-)

For example:
*Analysis - S+*
(Followed by reason - How far did they go to analyse a situation? The level of thinking and detail?)

*Creativity - A-*
(Followed by reason - New methods of winning that you didn't previously thought of? Combinations that you didn't know existed?)

*Structure - B+*
(Followed by reason)

*Factual - C-*
(Followed by reason - Point out things you see seriously wrong. Point out on things you didn't previously know. )

*Persuasiveness - S+ *
(Followed by reason - Did you changed your mind on the match up? Did you gain a new perspective?)





@UchihaX28
@Veracity
@Turrin
@HandfullofNaruto
@WorldsStrongest 
@Dr. White

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 27, 2017)

My judge lineup would be

@UchihaX28
@Veracity 
@Turrin
@HandfullofNaruto

Reactions: Like 2 | Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> HoN seems relatively unbiased too.






OT: I'll consider judges, sounds interesting.

Reactions: Friendly 3


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

Apparently Troyse is on Turrin's ignore list so that's not gonna fly. 

@WorldsStrongest are you up for judging kisame vs pein? all you have to do is analyze and give a detailed vote along with two other judges to determine the winner

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What do you guys think about the judges using a pre-established voting criteria?
> 
> Just so we have some consistency....
> 
> ...


Yeah thats good. judges should follow this criteria and explain who got more points and what not



Troyse22 said:


> OT: I'll consider judges, sounds interesting.


Are you okay with UchihaX28 and Veracity?

we just need one more judge, WS might be up for it.
Or Icegaze

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

it looks like @Veracity is in -- we only need one more Judge.. I was hoping for Turrin but I don't know how he would feel about being a judge for someone hes ignoring .. we just need one last judge ..

@Sapherosth I agree - the judges should use the voting criteria so there is consistency with their votes .. I could already imagine people complaining about one judge not having a detailed vote and with this we can assure complete analysis and bleh

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Jan 27, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> it looks like @Veracity is in -- we only need one more Judge.. I was hoping for Turrin but I don't know how he would feel about being a judge for someone hes ignoring .. we just need one last judge ..
> 
> @Sapherosth I agree - the judges should use the voting criteria so there is consistency with their votes .. I could already imagine people complaining about one judge not having a detailed vote and with this we can assure complete analysis and bleh


It was in one of the Akatsuki ranking threads where Turrin put him on ignore after Troyse told him about how Kisame>Itachi and =Nagato, etc.

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jan 27, 2017)

@WorldsStrongest would have been tired of this topic. I have seen him solo the same kisame vs Pain 2 or 3 times with scans  and paragraphs but this is still going on.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 27, 2017)

professor83 said:


> @WorldsStrongest would have been tired of this topic. I have seen him solo the same kisame vs Pain 2 or 3 times with scans  and paragraphs but this is still going on.


pretty sure that we have all taken our shot at that debate more than once .. it all ends the exact same way .. abandoned.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 28, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> @WorldsStrongest are you up for judging kisame vs pein? all you have to do is analyze and give a detailed vote along with two other judges to determine the winner


Id be down with being a judge, sounds fun just tell me what i gots ta do lol


professor83 said:


> @WorldsStrongest would have been tired of this topic. I have seen him solo the same kisame vs Pain 2 or 3 times with scans and paragraphs but this is still going on.


This is true, but just as @The Death & The Strawberry said, these debates are not about which character would necessarily defeat the other in canon, they are more so about post quality and i am more than capable of being objective lol.

When it comes to bias, im sure @Troyse22 would agree i dont have a horse in that race, ive seen him refer to me as unbiased a few times, it should be clear i have no beef with anyone on here and that wont affect how i judge anyway.

I also have been on the opposite side of debates with the  likes of @PhantomSage and @cctr9 before, and they are my homies, so it should also be clear i wont play favorites either lol

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 28, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> What do you guys think about the judges using a pre-established voting criteria?
> 
> Just so we have some consistency....
> 
> ...


Id be okay with this format if i am selected as a judge, if possible, all judges should follow the same format as well, that way its easy to see how well (or not lol) a debater does.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Jan 28, 2017)

Veracity and Worlds is fine.

I have a hard time believing Uchiha can judge fairly though honestly.


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## Serene Grace (Jan 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Veracity and Worlds is fine.
> 
> I have a hard time believing Uchiha can judge fairly though honestly.


Oh come on, Uchiha doesn't show you bias, the closet thing he does to that is when we know hes joking, and he does that with every one. Let's just stick with these judges.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 28, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> @Troyse22 yoh you still about this debate? I've seen you post in threads so you're clearly active.



I'll post it soon


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## UchihaX28 (Jan 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Veracity and Worlds is fine.
> 
> I have a hard time believing Uchiha can judge fairly though honestly.



 I will not be swayed by my preconceptions of the match, but if I see, "Samehada absorbs Shinra Tensei," then you can sure as hell bet I'm not going to let that slide.

Reactions: Like 3


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## Troyse22 (Jan 29, 2017)

Was able to get my Rebuttal up for Kisame vs Pein before I have to go to sleep for work lol.

Go check it out 

@UchihaX28 
@Veracity 
@WorldsStrongest 
@Sapherosth


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Was able to get my Rebuttal up for Kisame vs Pein before I have to go to sleep for work lol.
> 
> Go check it out
> 
> ...


The judges do not do anything until the debate is concluded


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## Sapherosth (Jan 30, 2017)

From what I can see from all the previous debates, people are taking too long to create introductions/rebuttals. From now on *5 days* is the maximum length for these debates. Afterwards the Judges can step in and give their votes *within 2 days*.

If you can't finish a debate in 5 days then you shouldn't even be participating. I don't really care how busy your lives are because if you're THAT busy, you shouldn't even be asking to participate in the first place. Same rules for judges apply. If you can't stick to schedule then don't do it. 

This way people don't lose interest in your matches too quickly, because quite frankly, it's boring waiting for people to write intro/rebuttal.


Over all the entire length of each debate will be 7 days maximum (including the voting). Don't ask for debates if you can't handle it. 


#NoNoobsAllowed.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jan 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> From what I can see from all the previous debates, people are taking too long to create introductions/rebuttals. From now on *5 days* is the maximum length for these debates. Afterwards the Judges can step in and give their votes *within 2 days*.
> 
> If you can't finish a debate in 5 days then you shouldn't even be participating. I don't really care how busy your lives are because if you're THAT busy, you shouldn't even be asking to participate in the first place. Same rules for judges apply. If you can't stick to schedule then don't do it.
> 
> ...




Now I know why my city isn't putting salt on the roads to deal with the ice, Saph has the world's supply


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## WorldsStrongest (Jan 30, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Now I know why my city isn't putting salt on the roads to deal with the ice, Saph has the world's supply


He also has a point, no one wants to wait a month and a half for a rebuttal on whether or not a shinobi can walk on yomi numa in a similar manner to walking on water, or if so and so can dodge this that or the other thing... and so on and so forth

There should have been deadlines since the beginning of the arena

Its also much more fair this way as your opponent cannot take 2 weeks to pour over the canon material in order to refute every little point you make and vice versa, ensuring only the important stuff is countered.


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2017)

What am I being nominated for? Sorry was away for a week


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 30, 2017)

Turrin said:


> What am I being nominated for? Sorry was away for a week


Troyse22 & The Death & The Strawberry are in a Kisame vs Pein Rikudo debate .. we wanted to try using judges for this thread instead of the usual open voting. I recommended you because I remember seeing really detailed votes during the Tourney .. the judges have already been decided and a few people noted the fact that you may not want to participate since Troyse22 is supposedly on your ignore list.


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## Sapherosth (Jan 30, 2017)

Turrin said:


> What am I being nominated for? Sorry was away for a week




To be a judge in some of the matches.

Yeah, what @HandfullofNaruto  said. 



Troyse22 said:


> Now I know why my city isn't putting salt on the roads to deal with the ice, Saph has the world's supply



Do you want to wait 1 week for your opponent's introduction and another week for his/her intro?

Do you want to wait 1 more week for a judge to give his/her vote?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Jan 30, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Do you want to wait 1 week for your opponent's introduction and another week for his/her intro? Do you want to wait 1 more week for a judge to give his/her vote?


7 Days is honestly more than enough time to wrap up a debate - I like the idea of putting a limit on these debates .. good shit.


Troyse22 said:


> Now I know why my city isn't putting salt on the roads to deal with the ice, Saph has the world's supply


Troyse weren't you the one accepting a concession from Davizwiz because he was late with his rebuttal??


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## Troyse22 (Jan 30, 2017)

I can't even make a joke without getting verbally raped.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Turrin (Jan 30, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Troyse22 & The Death & The Strawberry are in a Kisame vs Pein Rikudo debate .. we wanted to try using judges for this thread instead of the usual open voting. I recommended you because I remember seeing really detailed votes during the Tourney .. the judges have already been decided and a few people noted the fact that you may not want to participate since Troyse22 is supposedly on your ignore list.


I wouldn't be opposed to being assigned to judge specific debates, just PM/VM me next time and I'll usually respond. I also think assigned judges are better than public vote personally.

But in the case of this match, yeah I wouldn't want to be involved, and not just because Troyse22 is on my ignore list, it's because I don't think widely unbalanced match ups should be allowed. Like Kisame vs Pain, unless Kiame was widely advantage would normally end up locked pretty quickly as a normal NBD thread, so why spend time on it as formal debate? I get that were voting on quality of argument, this isn't my first rodeo, but when the gap between characters is wide enough the manga and data-books simply won't be able to provide enough evidence for someone to argue their position effectively. Meaning that the person arguing for the vastly weaker character will never be able to win unless the person arguing for the much stronger character does a ridiculously piss poor job. So basically going into this I already know Troyse22 ether looses or Death & Strawberry presents absolute garbage and looses due to that. To me that's not a fun debate to vote on.

Reactions: Like 2 | Agree 2 | Friendly 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2017)

A lot of people have clashed with Troye, gonna be hard to find someone who's pure of image based bias against him.

That being said, I'll add my name in as a possible judge for this debate, Troye should be allowed to veto at least one of the nominated judges though if he feels like they're bias against him but Saph should choose them it's his on going tournament. 

Carry on NBDCT.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 6, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> A lot of people have clashed with Troye, gonna be hard to find someone who's pure of image based bias against him.
> 
> That being said, I'll add my name in as a possible judge for this debate, Troye should be allowed to veto at least one of the nominated judges though if he feels like they're bias against him but Saph should choose them it's his on going tournament.
> 
> Carry on NBDCT.



At some point or another i've clashed with just about every poster on these forums.

And yeah, i'm perfectly aware of the people who are biased against me,  I wouldn't have HoN, cctr9, Icegaze, Oetsu, TD&TS, Professor, Turrin, Mithos etc judge a debate in which I am participating for example. it won't be hard to find people who aren't biased against me, I can think of 5 or so right off the top of my head. And even people i've once couldn't stand i'm now on good relations with @LAZLOLAZZING and @PhantomSage come to mind immediately, and for the most part i'd welcome them as judges

But you seem to be convinced that the entire BD has some sort of hatred for me, which is not the case. Some people might not agree with my opinions, but I can't see they'd actually take my arguments into consideration, unlike those listed above.


If @UchihaX28 doesn't have his judgment up by Wednesday, would one of you care to take his place?

@DaVizWiz
@PhantomSage
@Bonly
@LAZLOLAZZING
@NightingaleOfShadows

Reactions: Like 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 6, 2017)

Hate is too strong of a word, no one here even knows who you are, how could they hate you.

Dislike is probably the better adjective, and I never claimed everyone dislikes you only that it's going to be difficult to find anyone that hasn't had an argument with you or fired shots at you in some way.

It's up to you and Saph to determine whether they'd be bias against you, you only need 3 based on the previously suggested voting system.

The only poster I can think of that is worthy to judge based on merits aside from Saph in the section that hasn't had some sort of negative experience with you is UchihaX28, but he never has a negative experience with anyone so it's hard to discern where his bias lies as it pertains to all of us 

Eh, @UchihaX28 

Where do your allegiances lie you tree hugger!

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bonly (Feb 6, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> If @UchihaX28 doesn't have his judgment up by Wednesday, would one of you care to take his place?
> 
> @Bonly


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## Dr. White (Feb 6, 2017)

Uchiha still needs to write up his Minato part in our match up


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## Ishmael (Feb 6, 2017)

I have no problem with judging the debate, I'm not really biased towards any poster.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> Uchiha still needs to write up his Minato part in our match up



 

 Writing my judgement as we speak and now I get this shit. Just you wait, I'm gonna write a dank post that blows the mask off Kakashi's face.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 7, 2017)

Aight, finished my judgement. Now read it and weep.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 7, 2017)

Congratulations to our participant who won the firs debate of TBCA where there's judging system in place. 


Special thanks to the 3 judges and @HandfullofNaruto :

@WorldsStrongest 
@Veracity 
@UchihaX28

Reactions: Like 5


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## Parallaxis (Feb 7, 2017)

Seeing how me and NoS's debate was abandoned and I have some free time I would be up for this.
- EMS Sasuke (War Arc) vs SM Kabuto 

Location: Open Field
Distance: 50m
Mindset: IC
Intel: Full for Sasuke
Restrictions: PS, Tayuya Genjutsu, ET

I would like to argue for Sasuke. Mainly doing this because I want to dismantle all the kaabuto wank.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Seeing how me and NoS's debate was abandoned and I have some free time I would be up for this.
> - EMS Sasuke (War Arc) vs SM Kabuto
> 
> Location: Open Field
> ...




White rage and it's done.

Sasukes susanoo falls as per canon


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> White rage and it's done.
> 
> Sasukes susanoo falls as per canon


note the full knowledge for Sauce and the location. He could summon his hawk and attack from out of range


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## Parallaxis (Feb 7, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> White rage and it's done.
> 
> Sasukes susanoo falls as per canon


Really?
This is war ems assume
With full knowledge he shoots down the orb with enton magatama before the dragon circles it

What hon said works as wrll


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## Troyse22 (Feb 7, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> note the full knowledge for Sauce and the location. He could summon his hawk and attack from out of range



So Sasuke summons his hawk and flies out of reach of white rage...before it activates?

Fanfic.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Feb 7, 2017)

The trouble with the hawk is that it doesn't have any speed or durability/tanking feats. Back when the KC was active, people used to call it the "Death Hawk" because newbies would put their entire team on the hawk and promptly get one-shotted by the first attack that came its way.

Reactions: Informative 2


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 8, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> Writing my judgement as we speak and now I get this shit. Just you wait, I'm gonna write a dank post that blows the mask off Kakashi's face.


You firing shots Uchiha?!
Don't make me take my belt off and put you in your place in one of these debates 

UchihaX28:


DaVizWiz:

Reactions: Funny 4 | Winner 3


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## Icegaze (Feb 10, 2017)

@DaVizWiz 
Will take you on a debate. you choose the characters


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## Troyse22 (Feb 13, 2017)

Someone should debate Orochimaru vs Genjutsu-less healthy Itachi

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Someone should debate Orochimaru vs Genjutsu-less healthy Itachi


Ill take Healthy Orochimaru in this debate any day though if we are restricting Genjutsu we better take away Edo Tensei.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 13, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Ill take Healthy Orochimaru in this debate any day though if we are restricting Genjutsu we better take away Edo Tensei.



You and Saph or Uchiha should debate

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 13, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You and Saph or Uchiha should debate


Ive been down this road with @UchihaX28 & @Sapherosth multiple times .. its a pretty fun debate imo -- if they're up for it I'd be willing to support Orochimaru

Reactions: Funny 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 13, 2017)

I'm honestly not too interested in debating with Itachi who is reviled among the community.

 Besides, this forum has killed my desire to debate with Itachi.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 13, 2017)

Me and Handfull have been down this road far too many times. 

Someone else can do it.

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 14, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Me and Handfull have been down this road far too many times.
> 
> Someone else can do it.



 I vote @Isaiah13000. 

 Let us watch you conquer your bias you snake lover!


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## Lord Aizen (Feb 17, 2017)

I remember there was someone that wanted to debate with me about Juubito vs Toneri, me debating for juubito


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## Troyse22 (Feb 24, 2017)

Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin (Part 2 4 Hokage ET restricted)

Any takers


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin (Part 2 4 Hokage ET restricted)
> 
> Any takers


Toad mouth trap solos as per canon

/thread

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin (Part 2 4 Hokage ET restricted)
> 
> Any takers


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin (Part 2 4 Hokage ET restricted)
> 
> Any takers


If you are actually looking for a debate then I'm totally up for this.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 24, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If you are actually looking for a debate then I'm totally up for this.



Debate: Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin

Location: Kisame vs Bee
Distance: 25m
Knowledge: Manga
Restrictions: Oro restricted to P1 ET, has use of his arms, access to Manda etc etc.
Stipulations/Notes: Jiraiya starts in base
Itachi is healthy

Seem good to you @HandfullofNaruto ?


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Debate: Healthy Itachi and Kisame vs The Legendary Sannin
> 
> Location: Kisame vs Bee
> Distance: 25m
> ...


Would this be cool with you? - basically the same shit
*Topic*: Akastuki vs Sannin
*Location*: Sannin Battlefield
*Starting Distance*: 40 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Restrictions*: None
*Stipulations*:

Orochimaru has a Healthy Body with both arms & access to Edo Tensei Senju Brothers (pt. 1)
Tsunade has access to basic equipment - poisoned kunai & poisoned smoke bombs
Kisame is with Samehada
Itachi is Healthy


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## Troyse22 (Feb 24, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Tsunade has access to basic equipment - poisoned kunai & poisoned smoke bombs



Everything is fine except for this


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 24, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Everything is fine except for this


sorry I usually add that in all my Tsunade threads - don't really bring it into my argument with anything more than "and they'll have to watch out for getting poisoned". If you're uncomfortable with it whatever - we can take it out.

@Sapherosth could you create the thread for us?


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## Sapherosth (Feb 24, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> sorry I usually add that in all my Tsunade threads - don't really bring it into my argument with anything more than "and they'll have to watch out for getting poisoned". If you're uncomfortable with it whatever - we can take it out.
> 
> @Sapherosth could you create the thread for us?





Who's gonna be your refs?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 24, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Who's gonna be your refs?


I volunteer.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 24, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Who's gonna be your refs?



My votes would be 

@Bonly 
@WorldsStrongest 
@PhantomSage 
@DaVizWiz 
@La presagio 
@NightingaleOfShadows 

Those are just off the top of my head

Reactions: Like 1 | Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 24, 2017)

I would love to see this line-up:

@Bonly
@DaVizWiz
@WorldsStrongest

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Ishmael (Feb 24, 2017)

Like I said I have no bias towards any debater and refuse to favor another in a thread I have to judge if the other poster argument is better then the others it just is imo... so sign me up this seems fun.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Serene Grace (Feb 24, 2017)

I wanna volunteer


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## Parallaxis (Feb 24, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> I wanna volunteer


This is the part where @Troyse22 says "gross".

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 24, 2017)

I'll wait til tomorrow so we know exactly who wants to do it. 

So far we have:

@PhantomSage 
@La presagio 

Who have volunteered themselves. If anyone else wants to be a judge then drop @HandfullofNaruto, @Troyse22 and me a tag.


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## WorldsStrongest (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I would love to see this line-up:
> 
> @Bonly
> @DaVizWiz
> @WorldsStrongest


Im gonna bow out this time around

Maybe ill judge the next 1

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## The_Conqueror (Feb 25, 2017)

May be I should judge


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## Parallaxis (Feb 25, 2017)

I would do

Tobirama vs Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke (w/me arguing for Tobirama)
EMS Sasuke (Legged Susano'o + full knowledge) vs Kabuto (w/ me arguing for Sasuke)
3T Madara vs Onoki(Full knowledge) (w/me arguing for Onoki)
Tsunade vs Kisame (with me arguing for KISAME @HandfullofNaruto sth you might be interested )

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 25, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I would do
> 
> Tobirama vs Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke (w/me arguing for Tobirama)
> EMS Sasuke (Legged Susano'o + full knowledge) vs Kabuto (w/ me arguing for Sasuke)
> ...


I would love to get into that with you. Once I'm towards the end of my debate with troyse ill definitely get that.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 25, 2017)

You're not allowed to lose that debate @PhantomSage  lol

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> You're not allowed to lose that debate @PhantomSage  lol


Dunno. 
Thought about the matchup a couple days ago and found a couple ways that Kisame could win.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 25, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Dunno.
> Thought about the matchup a couple days ago and found a couple ways that Kisame could win.


she tanks it


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 25, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> 3T Madara vs Onoki(Full knowledge) (w/me arguing for Onoki)





PhantomSage said:


> Tobirama vs Kabuto fight EMS Sasuke (w/me arguing for Tobirama)


Id also be down with these


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## Troyse22 (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> she tanks it




Inb4 "Byakugo makes her breathe underwater"


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## Parallaxis (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Id also be down with these


Awesome!
I'd like to do the Tobirama vs Sasuke one, but it you want the Kisame vs Tsunade or the other that'd be fine as well.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 25, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Inb4 "Byakugo makes her breathe underwater"


on what planet would byakugo not allow her to breathe underwater. The mechanics of this tech couldn't be more straightforward

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Bonly (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I would love to see this line-up:
> 
> @Bonly
> @DaVizWiz
> @WorldsStrongest





Troyse22 said:


> My votes would be
> 
> @Bonly
> @WorldsStrongest
> ...





But I'd have to decline, personally I'm just not a fan of rating a debate in the current form of the _Judging criteria _

Reactions: Informative 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Feb 25, 2017)

Id be down for this line-up .. @Troyse22?
@La presagio
@PhantomSage
@NightingaleOfShadows

Reactions: Agree 2


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Id be down for this line-up .. @Troyse22?
> @La presagio
> @PhantomSage
> @NightingaleOfShadows



Im down with it, as long as theres no hate after this debate

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 25, 2017)

Guess it's settled then, 

@La presagio
@NightingaleOfShadows

Me

are judging here


after the end date.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 25, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> on what planet would byakugo not allow her to breathe underwater. The mechanics of this tech couldn't be more straightforward



gross.



NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Im down with it, as long as theres no hate after this debate



Judge fairly and there won't be 



PhantomSage said:


> Guess it's settled then,
> 
> @La presagio
> @NightingaleOfShadows
> ...



I appreciate the effort you guys will be going through, and look forward to reading your judging, whether I win or lose

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Parallaxis (Feb 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> gross.


Saw that "gross" coming from a mile away. 

@HandfullofNaruto if you're up for it we could also do that Healthy Orochimaru vs Deidara debate instead  ?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 26, 2017)

@La presagio is disqualified as a judge for ridiculous amounts of flaming.

Looking for another.




@t0xeus 
@DaVizWiz 

are one of you interested?


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## Ishmael (Feb 26, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> @La presagio is disqualified as a judge for ridiculous amounts of flaming.
> 
> Looking for another.
> 
> ...



Bro. Don't tag me honestly just don't.


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## Parallaxis (Feb 26, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Bro. Don't tag me honestly just don't.


This is where Troyse says "gross"

Reactions: Agree 1


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## DaVizWiz (Feb 26, 2017)

I'll judge, post the debate URL


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## Troyse22 (Feb 26, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'll judge, post the debate URL


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2017)

I'll look at it tomorrow and see what I can do.


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## Parallaxis (Feb 26, 2017)

t0xeus said:


> I'll look at it tomorrow and see what I can do.


Davizwiz already took it champ


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## t0xeus (Feb 26, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> Davizwiz already took it champ


Ah I missed it. Nevermind then.


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## UchihaX28 (Feb 26, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I'll judge, post the debate URL



I look forward to your verdict.  Just make sure Itachi & Kisame  solos at any cost.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Feb 26, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I look forward to your verdict. Just make sure Itachi & Kisame  solos at any cost.



I'm immune to losses in this debate.

Itachi is the man who low diffed Kaguya after all

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

I don't really care who wins the debate as long as my boy Itachi gets the credit he deserves


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## Parallaxis (Feb 27, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I don't really care who wins the debate as long as my boy Itachi gets the credit he deserves


you every thought about taking up an itachi debate? some of the more controversial ones perhaps?
like

itachi vs nagato
vs pain
vs minato
vs tobirama
vs MS sasuke

etc.


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> you every thought about taking up an itachi debate? some of the more controversial ones perhaps?
> like
> 
> itachi vs nagato
> ...



Hmmm, I'll think about it.


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## NightingaleOfShadows (Feb 27, 2017)

Tobirama vs Itachi would be a good debate


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## Sapherosth (Feb 27, 2017)

NightingaleOfShadows said:


> Tobirama vs Itachi would be a good debate




It would be. I think Tobirama is by far one of the hardest match ups for Itachi.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 28, 2017)

@Sapherosth 
I'm not looking for changes in the current debate, so don't think i'm trying to cop out or anything.

But for future debates, could we have a week to do the intros and rebuttals and then 3 day judging. It does get hard to address everything in such a short time, considering most of us work. I feel 4 days is a little too short, considering I can only fit in at most 1 post a day in those huge debates.

I'm aware the no deadline stuff was annoying (waiting almost 2 weeks for a rebuttal was annoying) but I feel 4 days is way too short.

thoughts?


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## Sapherosth (Feb 28, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> @Sapherosth
> I'm not looking for changes in the current debate, so don't think i'm trying to cop out or anything.
> 
> But for future debates, could we have a week to do the intros and rebuttals and then 3 day judging. It does get hard to address everything in such a short time, considering most of us work. I feel 4 days is a little too short, considering I can only fit in at most 1 post a day in those huge debates.
> ...





1 post a day in 4 days = 4 posts. 

Honestly though, writing 1 post a day is literally nothing considering we write at a dozen posts in other threads. Keeping it short means people can follow your matches daily instead of waiting several days for 1 post which is boring.

Reactions: Informative 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Veracity (Feb 28, 2017)

I'm not tryna be rude and hop in the actual thread but I can't let you guys get away with some of this stuff lol. 

@Sapherosth @Troyse22 

Saph: * "That was mokuton clone bro....But let's leave the comments for the final judging."*

Troy: *"But joking aside, that wouldn't happen in a real battle, considering we've seen Oro and Kabuto tanking her punches." *

Mokuton Bunshin have the same durability as the regular Users, hence why Madara was caught by a Bunshin feint and hence why all the Kage were perfectly fine seeing Madara's body explode when Tsuande punched it. There was no doubt that she could do that to a regular body. If you still can't see that being true, then consider the fact that Tsuande had no problems kicking through his actual ribcage Sussano which is superior to him in durability. His body exploding on panel, is exactly what happened.

Kabuto was only able to survive a blow from Tsuande because he severed her muscles prior - which was directly stated on panel. Oro has already made the statement that a single punch from Tsuande would kill them, and the liger bomb crater she left with her heel was evidence.

Oro was only able to survive a direct hit because his composition is elastic; sorta like how AAA could punt Dodai's rubber ball thousands of meters away with no damage. Even with said composition, Oro took enough blunt give trauma to give up his entire plan - which spanned multiple chapters and took planning. He also took more damage from that direct hit than he after being clawed over 200m away by 3k Naruto; he literally stood up and began to laugh and insult Naruto. Furthermore, that was Part 1 Tsuande who was rusty and chakra exhausted. Clearly in shape Tsuande hits harder?

Reactions: Like 3


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## Troyse22 (Feb 28, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I'm not tryna be rude and hop in the actual thread but I can't let you guys get away with some of this stuff lol.
> 
> @Sapherosth @Troyse22
> 
> ...




Not addressing, bring it to a PM, this isn't the place for it

Reactions: Dislike 1


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## Sapherosth (Feb 28, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I'm not tryna be rude and hop in the actual thread but I can't let you guys get away with some of this stuff lol.
> 
> @Sapherosth @Troyse22
> 
> ...





Not really sure if mokuton clones have the same durability as the original. 

What you said would have made sense if the real Uchiha Madara didn't block one of Tsunade's kicks prior to that. Kicks are normally harder than punches since legs are naturally stronger than arms.  




The same kick that did this to Susano





There are some inconsistencies in this manga. 



Furthermore, we've seen him block attacks from Raikage as well





And Raikage's attacks usually do things like this 





Based on all this evidence, it would actually seem that Madara's normal body is more durable than Susano but we all know that isn't the case. 

Let's just put it this way - A Karate master punches a brick wall, chances are he can crack it and perhaps even punch through it. However, when he punches a human (which we all know is less durable than a brick wall), chances are that Karate master won't be able to punch a hole through that human due to the composition of a human body. 

No different than Tsunade creating a huge crack on the ground but didn't take Orochimaru's head off when she punched him in the face despite the fact that Orochimaru's face should be less durable than rocks on the ground.


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## Troyse22 (Feb 28, 2017)

"Don't fuck with the Raikage bitch" 

Lol'd

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Veracity (Feb 28, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Not really sure if mokuton clones have the same durability as the original.
> 
> What you said would have made sense if the real Uchiha Madara didn't block one of Tsunade's kicks prior to that. Kicks are normally harder than punches since legs are naturally stronger than arms.
> 
> ...


Mokuton Bunshin are the same durability as the original for all the reasons I already pointed out.

The only reason Madara blocked her kick was because her muscles were severed via the transportation techinque which had a similar effect as Kabuto's chakra scaples. That mixed with the fact that a CES user can control the amount of chakra they put into attacks, makes it evident that Tsunade didn't have the proper composure to transfer a good deal of chakra to her kick before it connected to Madara considering she was warped there at light speed.

Madara blocked a blunt force attack from the Raikage, while his Raiton chop broke through Sussano. Piercing damage has proven to be more effective than blunt force time and time again.

Shinobi in this verse happen to be more durable than the terrain when placed in front of blunt force attacks. That's the flaw in your analogy.

At the end of the day you countered your own logic in that post. You agree that Madara's ribcage Sussano is more durable than his body right? You also agree that Tsuande destroyed the structure and sent Madara into a liger bomb sized crater right? So Tsuande punching Madara and making him explode is right in line with her actual feats, thus mokuton Bunshin being as durable as the original weilder is concrete.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sapherosth (Mar 1, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Mokuton Bunshin are the same durability as the original for all the reasons I already pointed out.



How is this the case exactly? Kagebunshins have been known to go poof easily and tend to receive more damage than the original. You don't ever see the original go down with just 1 hit do you? 



> The only reason Madara blocked her kick was because her muscles were severed via the transportation techinque which had a similar effect as Kabuto's chakra scaples. That mixed with the fact that a CES user can control the amount of chakra they put into attacks, makes it evident that Tsunade didn't have the proper composure to transfer a good deal of chakra to her kick before it connected to Madara considering she was warped there at light speed.



A better argument for you would be Tsunade activated Byakugo so her punches/kicks became more powerful. Just look at Sakura after she activated byakugo. However, I still believe that Madara can block it by using the momentum of the punch to reduce the impact. The only way her punch is going to make him "explode" would be him willingly let her hit him. 



> Madara blocked a blunt force attack from the Raikage, while his Raiton chop broke through Sussano. Piercing damage has proven to be more effective than blunt force time and time again.



No, the Raikage used a blunt force attack against Sasuke, not a piercing attack. It was literally a slap at Rib-Susano. 



> Shinobi in this verse happen to be more durable than the terrain when placed in front of blunt force attacks. That's the flaw in your analogy.



Pretty sure I already stated that human body will deal with such damage better than the terrain (bricks) as I call it. 



> At the end of the day you countered your own logic in that post. You agree that Madara's ribcage Sussano is more durable than his body right? You also agree that Tsuande destroyed the structure and sent Madara into a liger bomb sized crater right? So Tsuande punching Madara and making him explode is right in line with her actual feats, thus mokuton Bunshin being as durable as the original weilder is concrete.



Do you actually know why the Mokuton clone panel was brought up in the first place? 

At the end of the day, taking an attack head on vs blocking them will yield different results. If we're talking about Madara letting Tsunade hit him straight in the chest, of course he's going to explode. If he defends? He'll probably be sent flying.


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## Veracity (Mar 1, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> How is this the case exactly? Kagebunshins have been known to go poof easily and tend to receive more damage than the original. You don't ever see the original go down with just 1 hit do you?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Kage Bunshin and Mokuton Bunshin are not the same thing. The difference being that Mokuton Bunshin retain the durability of the user; hence the examples I even brought up lol.

What? Even if you were to say that Byakago Tsuande> Base Tsuande in striking strength, then that devalues your statement of her Base and Byakago kick dealing the same damage. Again, that counters your own logic.

Bruh that doesn't make any sense and you know it. Madara blocking the attack would not have done shit. You know why? Because when she punched the Mokuton Bunshin( same durability as the original) in the chest, his arms were destroyed as a side effect. Tsuande punches *so fucking hard*, that the shockwave from her punch destroys the rest of his body. That literally means that if she made contact with his arms, not only would they explode, but other parts surrounding them would. Furthermore, Madara did try to block Tsuande....by using a ribcage Sussano, and it was straight up destroyed. But now his arms magically can block her hits? Please stop.

Bruh, you really need to analyze the manga more clearly at some parts. The attack Raikage used against Sasuke was clearly a Raiton Chop via the position of his arms and the amount of damage it did. Consider the fact that Ay's regular fist blows *at best*( assuming you factor in the momentum created from his flicker) do as much as damage as a liger bomb. Ay's liger bomb was wasn't very effective against Sasuke's RC, while his lighting chop actually broke through. Lighting chop> Liger Bomb> Lariat> Regular punches.

Your example doesn't matter. I'm not using real world physics here, I'm talking about Naruto. I've already debunked all of your points.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 4, 2017)

I'm willing to judge any debates if anyone plans on doing debates.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 4, 2017)

@Sapherosth are you Participating in the debate tournament?


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## Sapherosth (Mar 4, 2017)

professor83 said:


> @Sapherosth are you Participating in the debate tournament?




nahhh


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## Troyse22 (Mar 4, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> nahhh

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Mar 5, 2017)

Who wants to do a 3T Kakashi vs 3T Itachi match?


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 5, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Who wants to do a 3T Kakashi vs 3T Itachi match?


You For?


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## Serene Grace (Mar 6, 2017)

professor83 said:


> You For?


3T Kakashi


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2017)

@Veracity 
You down for a Tsunade vs Oro bro?

Reactions: Like 1


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## Veracity (Mar 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> @Veracity
> You down for a Tsunade vs Oro bro?


hmmmm. I'm honestly down, I'd just have to wait till spring break to have the time off of school.


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## Dr. White (Mar 6, 2017)

Veracity said:


> hmmmm. I'm honestly down, I'd just have to wait till spring break to have the time off of school.


ha sounds good, I'm on break now but I usually have time. Just can't do it until friday cause I'm at my girls now, so not too many tl;dr's. After that we can get it going.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 6, 2017)

Dr. White said:


> ha sounds good, I'm on break now but I usually have time. Just can't do it until friday cause I'm at my girls now, so not too many tl;dr's. After that we can get it going.



I'll pay someone 25 USD to spot the lie

(I wish I didn't have to say i'm joking, but the mods and some NBD members will try to rip my throat out otherwise)

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 5


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## Troyse22 (Mar 10, 2017)

I have some time off soon, looking for Kakuzu vs Sasori (i'd be debating on behalf of Kakuzu) for this Sunday.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Mar 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I have some time off soon, looking for Kakuzu vs Sasori (i'd be debating on behalf of Kakuzu) for this Sunday.


If I were not part of the tournament I would love to take this - seems like a really relaxing debate.


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> 3T Kakashi


Well how about next week. I was thinking of arguing in favor of itachi tho I am not entirely sure I can  defend him so may be some restrictions on kakashi would do  and prove how he solos￼

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 1


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## StarWanderer (Mar 11, 2017)

The time will come when i, *StarWanderer The Great*, will show my devine power to you. 


The Battledome *God* will rise as the *Ultimate Champion*! 


Anyone will fall before my *Ultimate Godlike Almighty All-powerful Omnipotent Omnipresent* *MIGHT*!

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Mar 11, 2017)

StarWanderer said:


> The time will come when i, *StarWanderer The Great*, will show my devine power to you.
> 
> 
> The Battledome *God* will rise as the *Ultimate Champion*!
> ...


*You will do what I tell you to do and that is all.*​


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## StarWanderer (Mar 12, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> *You will do what I tell you to do and that is all.*​



The time will come.

You all will tremble before the power of...

*Battledome no Kami! *

Reactions: Funny 2


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 16, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Who wants to do a 3T Kakashi vs 3T Itachi match?


You ready FAM?


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## Ishmael (Mar 17, 2017)

Yo they should start making debaters argue in favor of the character. They think will lose or don't want to argue for and see how things goes.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Mar 17, 2017)

La presagio said:


> Yo they should start making debaters argue in favor of the character. They think will lose or don't want to argue for and see how things goes.


Planning to do that. So going with itachi and see how things go


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2017)

@Makishima 

 You want to do it? Jiraiya vs. Kisame.


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 28, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Makishima
> 
> You want to do it? Jiraiya vs. Kisame.


I hope SM is restricted lol


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## Zexion~ (Mar 28, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> @Makishima
> 
> You want to do it? Jiraiya vs. Kisame.




Yeah I'm down lol will have to start tomorrow or later though have an exam tonight.



> I hope SM is restricted lol



You mean the mode that got shit on by someone with Kisame's exact ability? Nah lol


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## HandfullofNaruto (Mar 28, 2017)

@UchihaX28 vs @Makishima
*Match*: Jiraiya vs Hoshigaki Kisame
*Location*: Hoshigaki Kisame vs Restricted Killer Bee
*Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Restrictions / Stipulations*:

none
does this look good to you two? I won't post it until you're ready for the debate of course and remember that you have the option to choose judges for your debate or you can leave it up to public votes.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 28, 2017)

I offer to be a judge

Reactions: Funny 4


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 28, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @UchihaX28 vs @Makishima
> *Match*: Jiraiya vs Hoshigaki Kisame
> *Location*: Hoshigaki Kisame vs Restricted Killer Bee
> *Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
> ...



 Looks good to me.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 28, 2017)

Looks interesting. Uchihax28 has more experience in the debate department, so I see him winning with quality of argument.
Maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised


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## Troyse22 (Mar 28, 2017)

When is the thread gonna be created?


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## WorldsStrongest (Mar 29, 2017)

> I hope SM is restricted lol





Makishima said:


> You mean the mode that got shit on by someone with Kisame's exact ability? Nah lol


I was unaware kisame had the rinnegan and six paths abilities

I guess I really have been underrating him then...


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## HandfullofNaruto (Mar 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> When is the thread gonna be created?


@Makishima said that she/he wouldn't be able to start the debate until tomorrow. They also haven't decided whether they were comfortable on how i set up the thread.


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## Troyse22 (Mar 29, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I was unaware kisame had the rinnegan and six paths abilities
> 
> I guess I really have been underrating him then...




Six Paths of Kisame...duh

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Mar 29, 2017)




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## Zexion~ (Mar 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Looks interesting. Uchihax28 has more experience in the debate department, so I see him winning with quality of argument.
> Maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised



I've been debating since before Uchiha lol



HandfullofNaruto said:


> @UchihaX28 vs @Makishima
> *Match*: Jiraiya vs Hoshigaki Kisame
> *Location*: Hoshigaki Kisame vs Restricted Killer Bee
> *Starting Distance*: 100 Meters
> ...



Uh distance seems a little far, especially when one has boss summons and the other does not, but it doesn't really mean all that much so whatever.



UchihaX28 said:


> Looks good to me.



Word I'll hyu then hold on


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Looks interesting. Uchihax28 has more experience in the debate department, so I see him winning with quality of argument.
> Maybe i'll be pleasantly surprised



 Nah, he has been debating for longer at NB. Never judge a book by its cover.

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Mar 29, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Uh distance seems a little far, especially when one has boss summons and the other does not, but it doesn't really mean all that much so whatever.


I'll cut it to 50


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## Zexion~ (Mar 29, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'll cut it to 50



Word homie



UchihaX28 said:


> Nah, he has been debating for longer at NB. Never judge a book by its cover.



Lol you do have (severe) home field advantage and you're the greatest "new" debater on NB for quite some time lol so it'll be fun regardless

Reactions: Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## UchihaX28 (Mar 29, 2017)

Makishima said:


> Lol you do have (severe) home field advantage and you're the greatest "new" debater on NB for quite some time lol so it'll be fun regardless



I don't think the advantage is as large as it seems unless Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode.

I'm assuming that Jiraiya starts in Base, but @HandfullofNaruto can clear that up.


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## Zexion~ (Mar 30, 2017)

UchihaX28 said:


> I don't think the advantage is as large as it seems unless Jiraiya starts in Sage Mode.
> 
> I'm assuming that Jiraiya starts in Base, but @HandfullofNaruto can clear that up.



I meant the site we are on my man

Reactions: Like 2


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## Sapherosth (Apr 5, 2017)

Right, I think it's time I do a debate on here. 


Who's game?

Reactions: Useful 1 | Optimistic 1


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## Tri (Apr 5, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Right, I think it's time I do a debate on here.
> 
> 
> Who's game?


I might be, depends on when I have free time. What characters do you want to debate with?


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## Sapherosth (Apr 6, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> I might be, depends on when I have free time. What characters do you want to debate with?




I can go with any character to be honest.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Tri (Apr 6, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> I can go with any character to be honest.


Alright cool, how does Deidara(me) vs Kakuzu sound?


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## The_Conqueror (Apr 6, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Right, I think it's time I do a debate on here.
> 
> 
> Who's game?


I"ll take itachi

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 1


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## Sapherosth (Apr 6, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Alright cool, how does Deidara(me) vs Kakuzu sound?





professor83 said:


> I"ll take itachi




I'm fine with taking you both on.... after all, I'm Saph.

Reactions: Funny 2 | Winner 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 8, 2017)

I challenge @Charmed 

The debate: Kisame vs Six Paths of Pain
Knowledge: Manga
Distance: 50m
Restrictions: None
Location: Kisame vs Bee

I want to debate this coming Friday, as that's when I have some time off.

I also want it titled TBCA not this new fangled NBCA nonsense 

What say you @Charmed

Reactions: Like 2 | Funny 1


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I challenge @Charmed
> 
> The debate: Kisame vs Six Paths of Pain
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


I'm in n.n/
are you gonna pole dance or what is that cat for ?


Edited.
Wait what?! until friday? I hate waiting, why not right now?


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## Troyse22 (Apr 8, 2017)

Charmed said:


> I'm in n.n/
> are you gonna pole dance or what is that cat for ?
> 
> 
> ...



Because I have work starting tomorrow until Friday and it's 12-16  hour shifts (changes depending on circumstances). I simply can't get into huge, commited debates during my work days. Some smaller debates sure, but not ones that I have a commitment to.


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Because I have work starting tomorrow until Friday and it's 12-16  hour shifts (changes depending on circumstances). I simply can't get into huge, commited debates during my work days. Some smaller debates sure, but not ones that I have a commitment to.


:'(
oh well, and what if I die before our battle 
And can you teach me what are the rules, or what do I have to do, I'm just lost :'(


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 8, 2017)

Charmed said:


> :'(
> oh well, and what if I die before our battle
> And can you teach me what are the rules, or what do I have to do, I'm just lost :'(


If you die before the battle/debate then Troyse22 wins - hands down. The rules are simple - you'll create an introduction that explains why your character is superior to their opponent while troyse does the same thing -- after that post you each have three rebuttals.. if you really feel lost just go to the first post on this thread.. all the rules are there and a few example debates as well. 





Troyse22 said:


> I also want it titled TBCA not this new fangled NBCA nonsense


Damn You!

Reactions: Funny 1 | Useful 1


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> If you die before the battle/debate then Troyse22 wins - hands down. The rules are simple - you'll create an introduction that explains why your character is superior to their opponent while troyse does the same thing -- after that post you each have three rebuttals.. if you really feel lost just go to the first post on this thread.. all the rules are there and a few example debates as well. Damn You!


ok thank you, so after my first post, I can have other 3 posts? and who wins? or who decides that? the admins?


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## Sinevelle (Apr 8, 2017)

Charmed said:


> what do I have to do


You don't have to do anything. Other than Makishima, everyone will vote for you  by default.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1 | Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 8, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> You don't have to do anything. Other than Makishima, everyone will vote for you  by default.



Yeah it's essentially an automatic win for you @Charmed so I wouldn't sweat if I were you too much.

Even if I perfectly refute every argument and give a perfectly detailed explanation on Kisame's path to victory, you still win. General consensus favors you, as well as quite a bit of bias from whoever judges the debate. I'm walking into this knowing that I will be voted against, but i'm doing it to explain why I think the things I do in this debate.


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's essentially an automatic win for you @Charmed so I wouldn't sweat if I were you too much.
> 
> Even if I perfectly refute every argument and give a perfectly detailed explanation on Kisame's path to victory, you still win. General consensus favors you, as well as quite a bit of bias from whoever judges the debate. I'm walking into this knowing that I will be voted against, but i'm doing it to explain why I think the things I do in this debate.


that's admirable :'3
I'll try my best ok buddy :')


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## Serene Grace (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I challenge @Charmed
> 
> The debate: *Kisame vs Six Paths of Pain*
> Knowledge: Manga
> ...


a second times worth the charm, ain't it @Troyse22  Kappa

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 8, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> a second times worth the charm, ain't it @Troyse22  Kappa






Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's essentially an automatic win for you @Charmed so I wouldn't sweat if I were you too much.
> 
> Even if I perfectly refute every argument and give a perfectly detailed explanation on Kisame's path to victory, you still win. General consensus favors you, as well as quite a bit of *bias from whoever judges* the debate. *I'm walking into this knowing that I will be voted against*, but i'm doing it to explain why I think the things I do in this debate.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's essentially an automatic win for you @Charmed so I wouldn't sweat if I were you too much.
> 
> Even if I perfectly refute every argument and give a perfectly detailed explanation on Kisame's path to victory, you still win. General consensus favors you, as well as quite a bit of bias from whoever judges the debate. I'm walking into this knowing that I will be voted against, but i'm doing it to explain why I think the things I do in this debate.


I'd actually auto-vote for you on this topic just because you're portrayed above Charmed as an nbd debater despite your controversial beliefs. 


Charmed said:


> ok thank you, so after my first post, I can have other 3 posts? and who wins? or who decides that? the admins?


*Post #1*: You & Troyse will both create an introduction that explains why you believe your character will win the battle.

*Post #2*: You will break apart Troyse's introduction and explain why he is wrong - he will do the same to yours.

*Post #3*: You will dive into each others rebuttals.

*Post #4*: Once again just explain why you think troyse is wrong.

Just keep it simple and you'll be fine

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'd actually auto-vote for you on this topic just because you're portrayed above Charmed as an nbd debater despite your controversial beliefs.
> 
> *Post #1*: You & Troyse will both create an introduction that explains why you believe your character will win the battle.
> 
> ...



Thank you, you should vote for the best, not for the most controversial o.<!

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 8, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Thank you, you should vote for the best, not for the most controversial o.<!


I wouldn't be voting for him because his beliefs are controversial but because he's been around here longer than you and is a lot more experienced in this setting and these styles of debates.. I can easily overlook that and just focus on who constructed a better debate and brought forth better reasoning and whatnot but I dont really like to vote in these. I am really looking forward to your debate though - Pein Rikudo vs Hoshigaki Kisame is probably one of my favorite NBD topics.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 8, 2017)

@Troyse22 - @Charmed -- when would you like to start the debate? I can open the NBCA TBCA thread any time.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Troyse22 - @Charmed -- when would you like to start the debate? I can open the NBCA TBCA thread any time.


Friday.
I'll tell Konan to prepare my 6 Pain bodies for that day :''3

Reactions: Optimistic 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 8, 2017)

Charmed said:


> Friday.
> I'll tell Konan to prepare my 6 Pain bodies for that day :''3



It's all she's good for anyways

Reactions: Funny 2


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## Charmed (Apr 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> It's all she's good for anyways


don't tempt me 7n7r


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 9, 2017)

Charmed said:


> what do I have to do


Your best




Sinevelle said:


> You don't have to do anything. Other than Makishima, everyone will vote for you by default.


Well this isnt true at all...



Troyse22 said:


> Yeah it's essentially an automatic win for you @Charmed so I wouldn't sweat if I were you too much.
> 
> Even if I perfectly refute every argument and give a perfectly detailed explanation on Kisame's path to victory, you still win. General consensus favors you, as well as quite a bit of bias from whoever judges the debate. I'm walking into this knowing that I will be voted against, but i'm doing it to explain why I think the things I do in this debate.


And neither is any of this...

Unless the CA has gone through some serious reworking since last I witnessed a debate, both participants need to sign off on 3 judges they think are unbiased and fair...

All you need do is pick 3 people who wont be biased

In the CA the quality of the argument is what is judged not who beats who in canon.

"Its the journey not the destination"

If the matchup was "Pain vs Part 1 Sakura" and someone tried to make a legit case for sakura in comparison to their opponent who just posted nonsense in favor of pain then the debater who had sakura would win. Even tho its impossible for any version of sakura to beat pain imho...let alone part 1 sakura.

Im aware thats a very extreme example but you get the point

Just pick three unbiased judges. I can name at least 5 posters outside of myself off the top of my head who are more than up to the task of being unbiased.

If your argument is better then you win...All there is to it

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## Sinevelle (Apr 9, 2017)

Everyone is biased to some extent. Everyone's understanding of manga is entirely subjective. Furthermore each of us has a different view on who is biased towards a certain character - for Troyse most of posters here are biased and prejudiced towards Kisame, because either their understanding of manga is flawed or they just don't like that character. Yesterday there was a guy who believed Kimimaro could win against Pain and called everyone who disagreed fanboys who don't read manga. His perception was that we were biased.

You won't find an unbiased judge. You can't. Consider yourself biased as well!

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 9, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> Everyone is biased to some extent


Not to the point they cannot judge fairly imo

At least on occasion lol



Sinevelle said:


> Everyone's understanding of manga is entirely subjective


Agreed

But people are judging quality of argument, not just how a post lines up with their head canon


Sinevelle said:


> Furthermore each of us has a different view on who is biased towards a certain character


I wonder what posters around here would say about me on this subject? 




Sinevelle said:


> Yesterday there was a guy who believed Kimimaro could win against Pain and called everyone who disagreed fanboys who don't read manga. His perception was that we were biased.


Well i mean...

I feel as tho that would be an outlier



Sinevelle said:


> You won't find an unbiased judge


@DaVizWiz
@Turrin
@Matty
@PhantomSage
@Kyu
@professor83
@HandfullofNaruto

I feel as tho literally any one of these posters can be trusted to be impartial if selected as a judge and those are just off the top of my head

Also i havent seen much of your content, but i also feel as tho @Sinevelle would make a good judge



Sinevelle said:


> You can't


I can try 



Sinevelle said:


> Consider yourself biased as well!


According to @Troyse22 i can be pretty good about it

Reactions: Like 1 | Friendly 1


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## Sinevelle (Apr 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I wonder what posters around here would say about me on this subject?


 We could actually make a poll, list most active BDomers and everyone could provide their opinion on what characters given person overestimates/underestimates and to what degree. That could help to find the most - subjectively still - impartial judges for a certain matchup.

From what I've seen you hold Minato in high regard, a bit too much to my taste, but it seems to be a quite popular opinion lately.





> Also i havent seen much of your content, but i also feel as tho @Sinevelle would make a good judge


Thank you! I'm not sure you'd like my evaluation of Minato vs Pain though, it seems we quite strongly disagreed on some aspects of the fight few weeks ago. Generally if there is a character I overestimate, it's probably Pain - although I don't think I do.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 9, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> From what I've seen you hold Minato in high regard


Eh

I wouldnt say i put him higher than he should be but fair enough

I just am on his side in the vast majority of all of his controversial matchups

Like Itachi Vs Minato for example

I on occassion call out other poeople when they put minato too high tbh, not too long ago there was a thread about SM kabuto Vs minato and some people claimed minato could win and i was like...

Nawwww



Sinevelle said:


> Thank you! I'm not sure you'd like my evaluation of Minato vs Pain though, it seems we quite strongly disagreed on some aspects of the fight few weeks ago. Generally if there is a character I overestimate, it's probably Pain - although I don't think I do.


Pain could beat minato, i dont dispute that

Im like 60/40 in minatos favor at least tho


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## Sinevelle (Apr 9, 2017)

Ah sure, I understand that. As for Minato vs Itachi I'm more in the "draw depending on stipulations" team and in Pain's case I'd have the odds the other way around.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Turrin



 

Dude has me on ignore because I don't wank the Sannin hard enough.



WorldsStrongest said:


> According to @Troyse22 i can be pretty good about it




You can be a good judge, I just gotta make sure it's not Kisame vs Minato


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Dude has me on ignore because I don't wank the Sannin hard enough.


I posted several others

And even if what you say about him is true...Im sure itd work out just fine as ive said these debates are about quality of argument


Troyse22 said:


> You can be a good judge, I just gotta make sure it's not Kisame vs Minato


If the argument is compelling enough i would vote for kisame

Proved that when i judged your kisame Vs pain debate

Its about quality of argument not the end result

Though...The argument would need to be ridiculously good to merit minato losing to kisame...


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2017)

While I consider myself for the most part capable of being unbiased and valuing quality of argument over which character I actually feel are superior (in part proved by my track record); their are limits even for me. For example there is almost no scenario where I would vote for someone defending Kisame beats Pain under neutral conditions. This isn't because I think Pain is stronger than Kisame, but because I think Pain is multiple "Tiers" stronger than Kisame. I mean implications of Kisame struggling w/ PI-Kakashi and Roshi aside,  Kisame very clearly was indicated to be vastly inferior to Jiraiya, who was in-turn significantly inferior to Pain, needing special circumstances to have a chance of victory. This factually demonstrates a big enough gap between Pain and Kisame to the point where imo it's not possible to produce a *quality *argument in favor of Kisame defeating Pain. Now one could say i'm bias for holding this position, but then at what point does it end. If someone says Kimi can beat Pain, am I suppose to believe a quality argument can be made for this, otherwise I'm bias, despite the tremendous gap between the two? And so on, until we get the only Tenten Fangirl in existence in here arguing she can take Pain, and still i'm suppose to believe a quality argument can be produced for this position?

Though in fairness to myself, I was considered as a judge for Kisame vs Pain, Troyse debate, and I recused myself specifically because of the opinion I shared above, as I didn't want to judge a match where people could think my bias is effecting my vote. Even-though as I shared above I don't think that I'm being Biased anymore then the Mods are when they lock threads like Kimi vs Pain.

---------

Also FYI, Troyse isn't on my ignore list, I've literally never put someone on it. I just choose to ignore him, because our views on many characters and how they should be evaluated are so diametrically opposed and unreconcilable that I don't feel like it's worth my time to discuss any of these match ups with him. And like 90% of his posts are about said characters. So I simply choose to ignore his posts. However if he ever took place in a debate, and someone requested me to judge, I'd first look at the debate itself, and if it's something like Kisame vs Pain, I'd just decline taking part, but if it was actually something interesting and worthwhile I'd have no problem judging

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Apr 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Your best
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 ty :'3


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## Troyse22 (Apr 9, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Kisame very clearly was indicated to be vastly inferior to Jiraiya,



There it is @Charmed ...

Feats mean nothing anymore apparently


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## Troyse22 (Apr 9, 2017)

Turrin said:


> because our views on many characters and how they should be evaluated are so diametrically opposed and unreconcilable that I don't feel like it's worth my time to discuss any of these match ups with him.




It's a shame, but correct me if I'm wrong you've said you value hype and portrayal over feats in this manga, and I value the exact opposite, hence why (for most of the Shinobi I like to discuss) we can rarely agree


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## Charmed (Apr 9, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> There it is @Charmed ...
> 
> Feats mean nothing anymore apparently



I know! I haven't seen that before, in any spanish forum i've been, it's just weird, if you don't go by feats your just speculating.
I'm talking to this user, and he argues that Tsunade, being the best medical ninja, she has better ways of taking out Sasori's poison, and to make a better antidote than Sakura...
For me, Sakura's way of doing it is the best and only way, the only one i've seen actually, and Tsunade thought her right?.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sinevelle (Apr 9, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Kisame very clearly was indicated to be vastly inferior to Jiraiya


Actually that is not certain at all. Kisame humbly stated Jiraiya was a huge threat but that doesn't mean much. We had multiple instances of shinobi statements that turned to be meaningless or completely false. Zabuza stated Haku is stronger than him and when Tendou faced Kakashi he said he is honored to meet him, then he just casually mopped the floor with him. In P1 Hiruzen was so overhyped some people thought he was the strongest in the history, "The God of Shinobi", and then his performance turned out to be mediocre, pushing him many tiers below the strongest individuals in the series.

I understand people who heavily base their opinion on portrayal, but it can be very deceiving. I personally consider actual features to be the indicator of given individual's strength and treat hype as a supplementary factor.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2017)

To me there are three categories: Facts, Subjective Understanding of Portrayal/Hype, and Subjective Understanding of Feats

I take all three into consideration when evaluating character in the NBD. However certain categories definitely hold more or less weight. 

Facts always hold the most weight. Kisame stating he is inferior and would be ineffectual against Jiraiya, not once, but twice, with no reason to be duplicitous, isn't a fan's subjective interpretation of their portrayal, it's a factual admission of inferiority on Kisame's behalf. As such it holds the most.

After which we have Subjective Understanding Portrayal/Hype and Feats. As far as which of those two holds the most weight, that depends on the topic.

If the topic is ranking based than Hype and Portrayal holds more relevance. E.G. if the manga is portraying Jiraiya as someone able to fight evenly with Itachi and fight competently enough against Pain, that with more exp/knowledge he could even defeat Pain, on top of being part of the legendary 3 alongside Hokage-Tsuande and Orochimaru. While on the other hand Kisame is indicated to have a tough time with enemies like Roshi & PI-Kakashi, while being clearly portrayed as playing second banana to Itachi. Then obviously it's going to be really hard for me to believe the author considers Kisame a superior Shinobi to Jiraiya.

If the topic is a specific match up than still most of the time hype/portrayal is more important, but in some cases feats can become as important, like in cases of type match ups. E.G. Kisame's fighting style is highly dependent on absorbing the enemies chakra both for defensive reasons as well as offensive reasons, but he's matched up against an enemy like Jiraiya whose chakra can potentially be extremely dangerous for Kisame/Samehada to absorb, due to Natural Energy/Senjutsu effect of turning people into stone. Or E.G. a huge component of Kisame's fighting style being Suiton Ninjutsu, and him going up against an enemy like Jiraiya who has shown an extremely high degree of mastery over the Doton element, which he can further empower with Senjutsu. In both of these examples feats would lead me to believe Jiriaya is poor match up for Kisame.

However, if one of these categories sided with Kisame, then it would depend on the weight of the other two categories. For example if Kisame was a bad match up for Jiriaya, then I'd still think he likely lose, because the other two areas indicate a large enough gap between them where that I don't think even type match up could bridge. However if Portrayal/Facts didn't indicate such a big gap between them, then I'd be open to Kisame winning due to bad type match up despite being the overall inferior shinobi.

But imo all three of these categories, not just one side with Jiriaya's victory over Kisame, which is why I found discussing the match so pointless.



Troyse22 said:


> It's a shame, but correct me if I'm wrong you've said you value hype and portrayal over feats in this manga, and I value the exact opposite, hence why (for most of the Shinobi I like to discuss) we can rarely agree


Our view points aren't so greatly opposed due to Feats vs Portrayal/Hype. I discuss character match ups here all the time with people who value Feats over Portrayal/Hype. The reason our views are so greatly opposed is because:

As shown above I tend to disagree with you on not just hype, but also feats, and I think you outright ignore facts in many cases, E.G. ignoring Kisame flat out stating he is weaker than you assert he is.


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## Turrin (Apr 9, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> Actually that is not certain at all. Kisame humbly stated Jiraiya was a huge threat but that doesn't mean much. We had multiple instances of shinobi statements that turned to be meaningless or completely false. Zabuza stated Haku is stronger than him and when Tendou faced Kakashi he said he is honored to meet him, then he just casually mopped the floor with him. In P1 Hiruzen was so overhyped some people thought he was the strongest in the history, "The God of Shinobi", and then his performance turned out to be mediocre, pushing him many tiers below the strongest individuals in the series.
> 
> I understand people who heavily base their opinion on portrayal, but it can be very deceiving. I personally consider actual features to be the indicator of given individual's strength and treat hype as a supplementary factor.


Kisame flat out stated twice he could do nothing against Jiriaya. And indeed when faced with Jiriaya he could do nothing, but be saved by Itachi. Kisame had no reason to lie or exaggerate Jiriaya's strength, and the way the story played out supports his assertion.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 9, 2017)

Turrin said:


> As shown above I tend to disagree with you on not just hype, but also feats, and I think you outright ignore facts in many cases, E.G. ignoring Kisame flat out stating he is weaker than you assert he is.



A statement that became worthless come part 2. His feats make his part 1 statement garbage, I sincerely hope you're intelligent enough to recognize that. 

Kisame's feats are vastly superior to Jiraiya's.

He beat a Shinobi who could more than likely mid diff Pain (Killer Bee)
The same Pain that trashed Jiraiya, and deva wasn't even used.
He also beat this Shinobi (Killer Bee) with low-mid difficulty.


The manga made it clear come part 2 that Kisame is well above "Sannin" level based on feats. You need to recognize @Turrin that Part 1 isn't the end of the manga. 

Based on feats in Part 2, Kisame would stomp Jiraiya solo. That's not me being biased or anything, that's just straight up fact.


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## DaVizWiz (Apr 9, 2017)

I have no intention of judging a Kisame thread. The last 3 TBCA threads if I recall correctly have Kisame in the matchup, too boring for me. 

I must attest I couldn't bring myself to judge in Troye & Handful's matchup because it had Kisame in it, after I'd just finished debating against the character in my own TBCA matchup, too repetitive for me to muster the energy to read through the same person's argument, for the same character, after I just rebutted the same thing myself extensively.

Now he's taking Kisame again, so there won't even be an argument variation for Kisame, it'll be the same debater with the same style writing an essay for the character he's done several times in the TBCA already, no chance I'll judge this, it's like listening to a broken record for hours. No offensive Troye, I'm just saying it's much of the same.

I agree with the list though @WorldsStrongest

Reactions: Like 2


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## Troyse22 (Apr 9, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> Now he's taking Kisame again, so there won't even be an argument variation for Kisame, it'll be the same debater with the same style writing an essay for the character he's done several times in the TBCA already, no chance I'll judge this, it's like listening to a broken record for hours. No offensive Troye, I'm just saying it's much of the same.



Fair enough 
No offense taken 

But whenever I wanna do a thread not involving Kisame, nobody wants to do it. I wanted to debate on behalf of Kakuzu and there was no interest 

Kisame is the only one who gets others adrenaline going it seems


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> A statement that became worthless come part 2. His feats make his part 1 statement garbage.


There are certainly times when more current portrayal and feats outweigh a statement from PI. Such is the case with Hashirama's PII Feats & Portrayal vs Prime-Hiruzen being stated as the Strongest Hokage in PI. However retecons like these are the exceptions and not the rule. For the most part PI Statements are just as important to take into consideration as PII statements.

As far as Kisame goes, I simply don't think there is anywhere near enough evidence, when it comes to his feats or portrayal to effectively argue a retecon occurred. 



> He beat a Shinobi who could more than likely mid diff Pain (Killer Bee)
> The same Pain that trashed Jiraiya, and deva wasn't even used.
> He also beat this Shinobi (Killer Bee) with low-mid difficulty.


As I said before imo it's not possible to produce a *quality *argument in favor of your view points concerning Kisame. And this is a perfect example of that lack of quality i'm referring to.

In-order to assert your premise, you argue to ignore facts and portrayal/hype in favor of Feats at the start of your argument, but then ignore how Kisame's feats make V1/V2 B his most ideal match up in the entire manga. You then also ignore any portrayal that would partially excuse B's performance, like him being handicapped by having to protect Sabu and Ponta, and not being able to use Full Hachibi. 

And I don't even known where the idea that Killer-B Mid-Diffs Pain comes from.

These imo are simply low quality arguments, that I would never vote for.


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## Sinevelle (Apr 10, 2017)

Turrin said:


> Kisame flat out stated twice he could do nothing against Jiriaya. And indeed when faced with Jiriaya he could do nothing, but be saved by Itachi. Kisame had no reason to lie or exaggerate Jiriaya's strength, and the way the story played out supports his assertion.


I used to believe that as well, but my beliefs were shattered by Part2 events. Back in the day, when I saw a 3-way deadlock I thought it was the pinnacle of shinobi skill - summons so big and powerful they can decimate armies. I was wrong. Naruto went the DBZ route and it turned out 3 boss summons are just fodder to someone like Pain. Pretty much all characters went though major power-ups in the second part. In the first one Tsunade had to deal with aftereffects because of injuries that seems like nothing compared to healing all the villagers during the invasion. Orochimaru was afraid of Kyuubi's powers, stating he is not sure he can deal with something like that, then he casually fought with 4 tailed Naruto after timeskip. There are many more examples.

I really thought Kisame was a high jounin, around Pt1 Kakashi level, it just seemed like a logical conclusion. Nevertheless feats he presented later proved he is way stronger.

As far as I'm concerned Kisame never admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. If this translation is correct - he said:
"Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me"
"Even the titles of Uchiha clan and Seven Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison (to Konoha 3 sannin)"
This does not directly indicate Kisame estimated himself to be weaker, he was just unsure whether he can win or not. Most likely because:

He had limited knowledge on Jiraiya
Sannin hype was huge
Itachi purposely misled him to believe they cannot face Jiraiya. Why? Reason is simple - Jiraiya was the most important asset of Konoha at that time. Itachi wouldn't want to inflict even a slightest injury on him. This is probably why he basically called Jiraiya back to Naruto by using an evident genjutsu on the woman. 
Kisame was not saved by Itachi. Itachi ordered him to retreat because of the obvious reason I stated above, hence his confusion as to why the retreat is necessary.

Just to make things clear, I'm not an advocate of Kisame being stronger than Jiraiya. I merely want to point the misconceptions associated with portrayal.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 10, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> Itachi purposely misled him to believe they cannot face Jiraiya. Why? Reason is simple - Jiraiya was the most important asset of Konoha at that time. Itachi wouldn't want to inflict even a slightest injury on him. This is probably why he basically called Jiraiya back to Naruto by using an evident genjutsu on the woman.


If this is in reference to Itachi being "the good guy and wanted to save Jiraiya" or "wanting to save konoha", why would he purposely lure Jiraiya away from Naruto then, just stand there doing nothing, as Kisame was about to mutilate a young Naruto(1)(2). I never understood this point, he's actions contradict this so badly.


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## Sinevelle (Apr 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> If this is in reference to Itachi being "the good guy and wanted to save Jiraiya" or "wanting to save konoha", why would he purposely lure Jiraiya away from Naruto then, just stand there doing nothing, as Kisame was about to mutilate a young Naruto(1)(2). I never understood this point, he's actions contradict this so badly.


I'll try to explain. There were most likely 2 reasons for Itachi putting the woman in genjutsu:

Itachi wanted to alert Jiraya. If he wanted to lure him away he could utilize a proper genjutsu, as he is a master of such, that would not be recognized by Jiraiya.
I was a best solution to keep his cover intact, any other action might look suspicious. 
It was Jiraiya who assumed the purpose of the genjutsu was to lure him away. Itachi knowing Jiraiya is coming had no reason to interfere with Kisame's actions and most likely they were just empty threats for sole purpose of intimidating Naruto.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 10, 2017)

DaVizWiz said:


> I agree with the list though @WorldsStrongest


Im glad you like it lol

I genuinely dont think anyone i mentioned would let favoritism or bias get in the way of honest judging.

There are other posters i would more than trust to do the same but they were just the ones who came to mind.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 10, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> If this is in reference to Itachi being "the good guy and wanted to save Jiraiya" or "wanting to save konoha", why would he purposely lure Jiraiya away from Naruto then, just stand there doing nothing, as Kisame was about to mutilate a young Naruto(1)(2). I never understood this point, he's actions contradict this so badly.


I agree...

Imo itachi was never a "good guy" until well into part 2

I refuse to believe kishi could handle his double agent role so poorly that its filled with all the plot hole nonsense it is filled with...I mean...Kishi had to invent danzo in part 2 just to have itachis actions make sense...

Reactions: Like 2


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## Serene Grace (Apr 10, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> I'll try to explain. There were most likely 2 reasons for Itachi putting the woman in genjutsu:
> 
> Itachi wanted to alert Jiraya. If he wanted to lure him away he could utilize a proper genjutsu, as he is a master of such, that would not be recognized by Jiraiya.
> I was a best solution to keep his cover intact, any other action might look suspicious.


Alright makes sense  Though I still kind of disagree on him being a good guy in pt1. Seems like a retcon



Sinevelle said:


> most likely they were just empty threats for sole purpose of intimidating Naruto.


Heres the thing. What Kisame did can't really be perceived as an empty threat, since he actually attempted to cut off Naruto's legs or arm, and would have had Jiraiya not jumped into to save Naruto. An open threat would be me saying that I would hit my girlfriend if she does something, but never actually doing it, but in this case Kisame was actually about to back up this threat. Now unless you assume that itachi has some sort of chakra sensing ability, and was aware of Jiraiya coming in the moment, there was no actual way that he knew Jiraiya would have came in that moment and stopped Naruto from being mutilated.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 10, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> I used to believe that as well, but my beliefs were shattered by Part2 events. Back in the day, when I saw a 3-way deadlock I thought it was the pinnacle of shinobi skill - summons so big and powerful they can decimate armies. I was wrong.


Nobody believes that Kuchiyose: Manda or Gamabunta is the pinnacle of Shinobi skill (Katsuyu is different - that right there is some God-Tier bizz) because come Part 2 we see the Sannin themselves reveal new techniques that put boss summons to shame. 





> Naruto went the DBZ route and it turned out 3 boss summons are just fodder to someone like Pain. Pretty much all characters went through major power-ups in the second part. In the first one Tsunade had to deal with aftereffects because of injuries that seems like nothing compared to healing all the villagers during the invasion.


Aside from the fact Pein Rikudo is a very high tier character (Wielding Uchiha Madaras Rinnegan / Child of Prophecy - Jiraiyas Student / Leader of the Akatsuki) we clearly see that all characters were effected by the power inflation as to keep any part 1 Portrayal in tact and all the retconned Portrayal was super in your face (Sarutobi Hiruzen is the strongest Hokage / Uchiha Itachi is super evil / Haruno Sakura is supposed to use Genjutsu / Shukaku was initially the spirit of an old man or something fucking stupid but then come pt. 2 we get Bijuu / etc.). When Rusty Senju Tsunade used Sozo Saisei & Summoned a large portion of Katsuyu then went agro on Orochimaru .. while it was not much compared to Healing the entire village and protecting them from Chou Shinra Tensei the aftereffects of those two events were drastically different - in pt. 1 she has to undo her transformation Jutsu so that she may conserve chakra and that's it. In pt. 2 she has to undo her transformation & relinquish the Hokage name because she couldn't wake up for several days. 





> Orochimaru was afraid of Kyuubi's powers, stating he is not sure he can deal with something like that, then he casually fought with 4 tailed Naruto after timeskip. There are many more examples.


When does he state this because if I remember correctly his only concern with Kyubi is that the Akatsuki don't manage to get their hands on him - that's something he wouldn't be able to deal with. When he battles four-tailed Naruto (in a failing host body with sealed arms & zero killing intent) it was just to gauge Narutos current strength. If Orochimaru outright stated "I have no chance against Kyubi" which doesn't happen then it still really wouldn't mean much since KN4 is far from BM.





> I really thought Kisame was a high jounin, around Pt1 Kakashi level, it just seemed like a logical conclusion. Nevertheless feats he presented later proved he is way stronger.


Uchiha Itachi didn't state that Hatake Kakashi is superior but that if Hoshigaki Kisame decides to take him head-on that he wouldn't get away scot-free + it's likely to draw in reinforcements. While Hatake Kakashi (pt. 1 -- restricted to p1 feats) is below Kisame the gap isn't so large that Kisame can just take him head-on and get away scot-free. 





> As far as I'm concerned Kisame never admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. If this translation is correct - he said:
> "Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me"
> "Even the titles of Uchiha clan and Seven Swordsmen of the Mist pale in comparison (to Konoha 3 sannin)"
> This does not directly indicate Kisame estimated himself to be weaker, he was just unsure whether he can win or not. Most likely because


He is flat-out stating that as a Shinobi of the Naruto-Verse Jiraiya is superior.





> He had limited knowledge on Jiraiya. Sannin hype was huge. Itachi purposely misled him to believe they cannot face Jiraiya. Why? Reason is simple - Jiraiya was the most important asset of Konoha at that time. Itachi wouldn't want to inflict even a slightest injury on him. This is probably why he basically called Jiraiya back to Naruto by using an evident genjutsu on the woman.


I won't even bring up Itachis statements since anything that puts him in a dim light literally gets brushed off as a lie (lol). So let's focus on Jiraiya (A man with 43+ years of experience as a shinobi, the man to find and lead the child of prohphecy, the man who is known throughout the entire shinobi world as part of the Legendary Sannin, the man who spied on the Akatsuki & Orochimaru (the two most secretive groups/people) / the man to battle against the rinnegan / the man who received "highest possible praise" from a self-proclaimed GOD / the man who Obito credits his defeat / the man to be nominated for Hokage) & Hoshigaki Kisame (the fish who became a man / a man with 20+ years of experience as a shinobi / the man who has high chakra reserves even among the Akatsuki / the man who wields Samehada the most dangerous of the seven blades / the man who is considered a Bijuu without a tail / the man of troyses _wet _dreams / the man who almost captured Hachibi) both have well above average intelligence yet whatever they state gets treated like a child's ignorance. Hoshigaki Kisame who has been paired with Uchiha Itachi for 7+ years and knows his entire arsenal bar Susanoo saw Jiraiya & stated (before Itachi says anything at all) that Jiraiya is a serious threat. When faced with the duo (he knows both of them quite well - reputation at least + he's been spying) Jiraiya immediately vows to murder both of them on the spot & this wasn't some basic taunt that we can just find anywhere in the manga because immediately after Sasuke is done interrupting he launches an attack capable of pressuring the both of them simultaneously. Even if we changed Uchiha Itachis lines to "I'm stronger than him" everything could have gone exactly the same way & the general superiority (over Kisame) given to Jiraiya would remain in tact. 





> Kisame was not saved by Itachi. Itachi ordered him to retreat because of the obvious reason I stated above, hence his confusion as to why the retreat is necessary.


He wasn't curious why retreat was necessary but why retreat was necessary for Itachi & it's because Kishi wanted to get a bunch of shit done all at once - not gonna sit here and go in depth on each of these but here is a bullet list:

Explain the relationship between Sauce & Itachi without having anyone nabbed or killed.
Explain that Naruto has enemies / he needed to witness it first hand.
Show that MS has drawbacks & that the Akatsuki have seriously unique Jutsu.
I mean Kishi treated us like children when he put Jiraiya above Kisame -
Naruto: You're just a Pervy Sage
Jiraiya: I'm distinguished
Naruto: Whatever Pervy Sage
Kisame: Our titles pale in comparison & I don't think I can do this.
that shit was all in one chapter


> Just to make things clear, I'm not an advocate of Kisame being stronger than Jiraiya. I merely want to point the misconceptions associated with portrayal.


I think Jiraiya is firmly portrayed above Kisame and that's the minimum bar for where Jiraiya is portrayed.


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## Sinevelle (Apr 10, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I agree...
> 
> Imo itachi was never a "good guy" until well into part 2
> 
> I refuse to believe kishi could handle his double agent role so poorly that its filled with plot hole nonsense...I mean...Kishi had to invent danzo in part 2 just to have itachis actions make sense...


What exactly do you consider to be plot nonsense? For me the whole clan slaughtering thing to save Konoha is a huge stretch as Itachi could just simply state he is on Konoha's side along with Shisui, that alone would make Uchiha's firepower simply not enough. Or they could jus make him Hokage from the start and everyone would be happy.

I think however the double agent thing or at least something that could explain his actions was planned from the start. Otherwise it makes even less sense.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Heres the thing. What Kisame did can't really be perceived as an empty threat, since he actually attempted to cut off Naruto's legs or arm, and would have had Jiraiya not jumped into to save Naruto. An open threat would be me saying that I would hit my girlfriend if she does something, but never actually doing it, but in this case Kisame was actually about to back up this threat. Now unless you assume that itachi has some sort of chakra sensing ability, and was aware of Jiraiya coming in the moment, there was no actual way that he knew Jiraiya would have came in that moment and stopped Naruto from being mutilated.


It might have not been an empty threat at that point, indeed. Itachi could do only as much not to blow his cover. Kisame might have just made a warning swing - Somehada is not exactly created for chopping things. That is however my mere speculation.

I'm pretty sure Itachi was already aware Jiraiya is coming. He might have known his genjutsu was dispelled and even if he didn't know, he probably made sure Jiraiya will know something is off in time. As for the exact moment of Kisame's swing, he probably already realized a jutsu is coming. Even if Naruto was harmed, it probably wasn't that important for Itachi as making sure Kyuubi is still in Konoha's hands.


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 10, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> What exactly do you consider to be plot nonsense? For me the whole clan slaughtering thing to save Konoha is a huge stretch as Itachi could just simply state he is on Konoha's side along with Shisui, that alone would make Uchiha's firepower simply not enough. Or they could jus make him Hokage from the start and everyone would be happy.
> 
> I think however the double agent thing or at least something that could explain his actions was planned from the start. Otherwise it makes even less sense.


Basically all of it...

None of his actions make sense if you apply "he is on konohas team the entire time" logic to any of it


Itachi invading the Leaf (and thereby giving kisame, a man he KNOWS is a terrorist, knowledge on how to enter through the leafs barrier undetected) and aggressively pursuing his Jin target
Hospitalizing Kakashi, one of the leafs Top Shinobi when he is trying to capture the mans student, dealing kakashi out and ensuring the man cannot even attempt to save naruto, also  reduces the leafs overall military might considering as far as itachi knew kakashi was gonna be comatose for a loooong time if not forever (as itachi would have no clue tsunade could heal tsukuyomis aftereffects)
Informing kisame to kill asuma and kurenai (who couldnt even defend themselves at this point as they were keeping their eyes closed) and detain kakashi (who was borderline unconscious and also couldnt defend himself) and drag him back to their hideout when he had no possible way of knowing gai would show up and save the day
Luring Jman away from naruto so that he *and kisame *(whos actions itachi cannot account for and whom itachi knows is loyal to akatsukis goals) could detain him far easier (this is a biiiig one)
Danzos complete lack of existence until part 2 doenst help either...If itachis double agent back story really was planned since the beginning, then where the f was danzo for 200+ Chapters? Why wasnt he at the Chunin exams scouting for talent to be added to root? Why wasnt he at Hiruzens funeral?
I could go on


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## Sinevelle (Apr 10, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Nobody believes that Kuchiyose: Manda or Gamabunta is the pinnacle of Shinobi skill (Katsuyu is different - that right there is some God-Tier bizz) because come Part 2 we see the Sannin themselves reveal new techniques that put boss summons to shame.


 I didn't say anyone does now. I said I _used_ to way back when these chapters were released.



> Aside from the fact Pein Rikudo is a very high tier character (Wielding Uchiha Madaras Rinnegan / Child of Prophecy - Jiraiyas Student / Leader of the Akatsuki) we clearly see that all characters were effected by the power inflation


 That was my point.


> When does he state this because if I remember correctly his only concern with Kyubi is that the Akatsuki don't manage to get their hands on him - that's something he wouldn't be able to deal with.


 since he actually attempted to cut off Naruto's legs or arm, and would have had Jiraiya not jumped into to save Naruto.




> Uchiha Itachi didn't state that Hatake Kakashi is superior but that if Hoshigaki Kisame decides to take him head-on that he wouldn't get away scot-free + it's likely to draw in reinforcements. While Hatake Kakashi (pt. 1 -- restricted to p1 feats) is below Kisame the gap isn't so large that Kisame can just take him head-on and get away scot-free. He is flat-out stating that as a Shinobi of the Naruto-Verse Jiraiya is superior.I won't even bring up Itachis statements since anything that puts him in a dim light literally gets brushed off as a lie (lol). So let's focus on Jiraiya (A man with 43+ years of experience as a shinobi, the man to find and lead the child of prohphecy, the man who is known throughout the entire shinobi world as part of the Legendary Sannin, the man who spied on the Akatsuki & Orochimaru (the two most secretive groups/people) / the man to battle against the rinnegan / the man who received "highest possible praise" from a self-proclaimed GOD / the man who Obito credits his defeat / the man to be nominated for Hokage) & Hoshigaki Kisame (the fish who became a man / a man with 20+ years of experience as a shinobi / the man who has high chakra reserves even among the Akatsuki / the man who wields Samehada the most dangerous of the seven blades / the man who is considered a Bijuu without a tail / the man of troyses





> _wet _dreams / the man who almost captured Hachibi) both have well above average intelligence yet whatever they state gets treated like a child's ignorance. Hoshigaki Kisame who has been paired with Uchiha Itachi for 7+ years and knows his entire arsenal bar Susanoo saw Jiraiya & stated (before Itachi says anything at all) that Jiraiya is a serious threat.


 I'm sorry I've read that few times but I don't really get your point.

How is he stating Jiraiya is superior and to whom this statement is directed? There is no evidence Kisame knew everything about Itachi and he knew Jiraiya only by reputation.



> When faced with the duo (he knows both of them quite well - reputation at least + he's been spying) Jiraiya immediately vows to murder both of them on the spot & this wasn't some basic taunt that we can just find anywhere in the manga because immediately after Sasuke is done interrupting he launches an attack capable of pressuring the both of them simultaneously.


Jiraiya's statement is insignificant. He said the exact thing to Pain "You will die by my hand today" and then not only failed miserably but lost his life in the process. 

There is no evidence Jiraiya had any additional information on both of them since the moment they left their respective villages.


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## Sinevelle (Apr 10, 2017)

Ah sorry I quoted your post without reading and it clogged it in one giant wall of text, that's why I failed to understand some parts.



HandfullofNaruto said:


> He is flat-out stating that as a Shinobi of the Naruto-Verse Jiraiya is superior.


 No, as I've said nothing in what he stated indicates such thing directly. He clearly stated he is unsure whether he can take him on, and that Jiraiya's fame exceeds his own, that's all.

Also I didn't say Kisame was portrayed as stronger than Kakashi or the other way around. It was just my personal assumption he is around that level when I read that chapter.


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## Serene Grace (Apr 10, 2017)

[QUOTE="Sinevelle, post: 56788612, member: 189416"]he probably already realized a jutsu is coming[/QUOTE]
Yah but for Itachi to do that, he'd have to have some sort of sensing ability(which he doesn't) it'd be almost impossible for him to actually know that Jiraiyas jutsu was coming.


Sinevelle said:


> Even if Naruto was harmed, it probably wasn't that important for Itachi as making sure Kyuubi is still in Konoha's hands.


Wait so wouldn't naruto being harmed, cause Jiraiya to want to go after the akatsuki inevitablely putting his life in even more danger? Remember it was you who stated that Jiraiya was konohoas most important asset. If the akatsuki hurts naruto, Jiraiya is definitely going after them, putting himself in serious danger or possible death. It doesn't work no matter what way we try to go, each possibe scenario doesn't add up. 


Another thing. Did Itachi fortell that Kakashi would be healed or recover from the after effects of Tsukuyomi? Same can be said about his brother.

Why did he tell his brother to kill his best friend?

More and more I read this throughly, the notion of Itachi being good just sounds more and more like a retcon.


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## Turrin (Apr 10, 2017)

Sinevelle said:


> As far as I'm concerned Kisame never admitted inferiority to Jiraiya. If this translation is correct - he said:
> "Even if you might be able to take him on, I'm not so sure about me"


And right after this Kisame states point blank *"Our levels are too far apart"
*
That is a direct admission of inferiority.



> He had limited knowledge on Jiraiya
> Sannin hype was huge
> Itachi purposely misled him to believe they cannot face Jiraiya. Why? Reason is simple - Jiraiya was the most important asset of Konoha at that time. Itachi wouldn't want to inflict even a slightest injury on him. This is probably why he basically called Jiraiya back to Naruto by using an evident genjutsu on the woman.


1. You don't know what his knowledge of Jiraiya was
2. Sannin Hype being > Kisame's hype only further reenforces Jiraiya > Kisame
3. Kisame admitted inferiority before Itachi even said a single word about Jiraiya's strength



> Kisame was not saved by Itachi. .


I'm sorry but we are not reading the same manga then, because the manga I read had Kisame helplessly running away while Itachi had to deal with Toad Stomach through Amaterasu.



> Itachi ordered him to retreat because of the obvious reason I stated above, hence his confusion as to why the retreat is necessary


Kisame asked why retreat was necessary for ITACHI and says ITACHI, not him, could have done more. This only further reenforces the fact that Jiraiya was out of his league, but ITACHI, not him could have stepped to him.

And For the Record Itachi lying is not obvious, it actually makes no logical sense for him to be lying in that situation, but I won't rehash that argument for the 50th time.



> vertheless feats he presented later proved he is way stronger.


I'm sure every feat you'd refer to would ether be when Kisame is hopped up on Bijuu Chakra or has an Ocean Water Source, or Both. When the guy had nether he struggle with a high Jonin Roshi.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 10, 2017)

Turrin said:


> And right after this Kisame states point blank *"Our levels are too far apart"
> *
> That is a direct admission of inferiority.
> 
> ...




And just like that Troyse22 had an aneurysm

Reactions: Like 1


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## Sinevelle (Apr 11, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Yah but for Itachi to do that, he'd have to have some sort of sensing ability(which he doesn't) it'd be almost impossible for him to actually know that Jiraiyas jutsu was coming.


He sensed Sasuke coming just a moment before. It seems sensing someone in short distance is not that much of a problem for him.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Wait so wouldn't naruto being harmed, cause Jiraiya to want to go after the akatsuki inevitablely putting his life in even more danger? Remember it was you who stated that Jiraiya was konohoas most important asset. If the akatsuki hurts naruto, Jiraiya is definitely going after them, putting himself in serious danger or possible death. It doesn't work no matter what way we try to go, each possibe scenario doesn't add up.


If Naruto was harmed the outcome of the whole encounter would not change. Akatsuki would flee and Jiraiya would stay to protect Naruto. This would be an even stronger argument for staying as Jiraiya has to tend Naruto's wounds in such scenario.



The Death & The Strawberry said:


> Another thing. Did Itachi fortell that Kakashi would be healed or recover from the after effects of Tsukuyomi? Same can be said about his brother.
> 
> Why did he tell his brother to kill his best friend?
> 
> More and more I read this throughly, the notion of Itachi being good just sounds more and more like a retcon.


I do not discard a possibility of Kishimoto changing his mind in the middle of a series. However I try to make as much sense of what was presented to us, since we do not have any premise - other than our own subjective suspicions - to believe Itachi was created as a villain.

As for Kakashi - _perhaps _he knew effects are temporary. He could certainly kill him, but he didn't do that.

As for best firend - I have no idea, probably a plot device created in order to scare readers of Naruto's death.


Turrin said:


> And right after this Kisame states point blank *"Our levels are too far apart"*


I don't see this in my translation. Maybe I'm missing a page?



Turrin said:


> 1. You don't know what his knowledge of Jiraiya was
> 2. Sannin Hype being > Kisame's hype only further reenforces Jiraiya > Kisame
> 3. Kisame admitted inferiority before Itachi even said a single word about Jiraiya's strength


1. Exactly. It's pretty certain his knowledge was very limited as Nagato, Jiraiya's student and the leader of Akatsuki, had a very limited knowledge as well. Unless you imply Kisame had somehow a more extensive knowledge on Jiraiya than Nagato, which wouldn't make much sense.
2. No, that's a flawed logic. Nagato had little to no hype, there were not many people who knew who he was. The same case is with Obito. That has nothing to do with their skill. Furthermore even if Machael Jordan's hype is several times greater than Denver Nuggets' (almost everyone knows who Jordean is but only basketball fans know Denver Nuggets) it doesn't mean he could win alone against a whole team.
3. When did he do that? I must have missed.



Turrin said:


> I'm sorry but _we are not reading the same manga then_, because the manga I read had Kisame helplessly running away while Itachi had to deal with Toad Stomach through Amaterasu.


That's not an argument that can help you in any debate. In fact it only weakens the quality. The only thing we can read that is different is the translation, differences in opinion are a result of our subjective processing of information.

I did not consider the retreat to be helpless. In fact if Itachi didn't give an order of such, Kisame would most likely stay as he clearly believed they have an advantage


Turrin said:


> Kisame asked why retreat was necessary for ITACHI and says ITACHI, not him, could have done more. This only further reenforces the fact that Jiraiya was out of his league, but ITACHI, not him could have stepped to him.
> 
> And For the Record Itachi lying is not obvious, it actually makes no logical sense for him to be lying in that situation, but I won't rehash that argument for the 50th time.


His question implies that he believed Itachi had the prerequisites to defeat Jiraiya - even if not on his own, then together with Kisame - and fits his previous statements of him being uncertain whether he can take on Jiraiya. It's also an indication of Itachi being stronger than him (Kisame) or more suited for this fight, but that is not important here.



Turrin said:


> I'm sure every feat you'd refer to would ether be when Kisame is hopped up on Bijuu Chakra or has an Ocean Water Source, or Both. When the guy had nether he struggle with a high Jonin Roshi.


Chakra absorption was part of his ability, so whether or not he was able to perform these techniques on his own or enhanced, he clearly moved in ranks on my personal list that time. As for Roshi I do not recall such fight to be presented in manga.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 11, 2017)

Fuck outta here with all this "Itachi being a good guy is retcon".


Explain to me why the fuck Kakashi wondered to himself why Itachi didn't just kill him?     Explain to me why Itachi only has 1 S rank mission in the databook?  Explain to me why when Itachi arrived, nobody on Konoha's side died at all while when OTHER Akatsuki members arrived, people die?












All of your so called "evidence" which points at Itachi being a villain is trash. If it really came down to it, Itachi would sell out the village to protect Sasuke.

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 11, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Explain to me why when Itachi arrived, nobody on Konoha's side died at all while when OTHER Akatsuki members arrived, people die?



Maybe because Itachi is just inferior to all other Akatsuki


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## Sinevelle (Apr 11, 2017)

Oh, I missed that scan. Good one


Troyse22 said:


> Maybe because Itachi is just inferior to all other Akatsuki


Wouldn't that make Kisame even worse? Itachi is at least responsible for a genocide of a strongest clan while when Kisame appears, nobody ever dies. Maybe Kisame is the real good guy here? Boruto chapter 31 - Kisame revealed as an incarnation of Homura, played a bad guy's role not only to save a village but to save the world.

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Apr 11, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Fuck outta here with all this "Itachi being a good guy is retcon".
> 
> 
> Explain to me why the fuck Kakashi wondered to himself why Itachi didn't just kill him? Explain to me why Itachi only has 1 S rank mission in the databook? Explain to me why when Itachi arrived, nobody on Konoha's side died at all while when OTHER Akatsuki members arrived, people die?


glad to see you're back, missed you <3
Anyways 

filling Sasuke with blinf hatred and the quest to find revenge ruining his social life, trying to get him to betray his own village by killing one of his best _friends,_ and just when Sasuke was starting to open up to his team and starting to forget about his horrible past and started gaining friends and a social life Itachi comes in and beats the living shit out of him like he always does every time he sees him and ruins that. And that makes Sasuke abandon all of his bonds and head to Oro, the worst part is that he knew Orochimaru wanted Sasuke yet still didn't think twice on the stupid stuff he was doing.

. He put Sasuke and Kakashi in a indefinite coma. Of course they would have recovered, but we don't know how much time that would take. Kakashi never stated he could have been killed by Tsukuyomi, he was just wondering why Itachi got him with Tsukuyomi and didn't run in to finish him off while he was in it, I thought him directly referring to the time he was in it made that obvious, it would be weird to assume that he was talking about Itachi killing him with Tsukuyomi despite him not emphasizing its strength but the time he was in it. Kakashi assumed that itachi could have attacked him in the time span that he was in Tsukuyomi and Kakashi wouldnt have even noticed, but , which we can all infer is blantantly true about the ms. Itachi a good guy orginally? Nah


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## Sapherosth (Apr 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> glad to see you're back, missed you <3
> Anyways


 

You won't be missing me for long.. ck



> filling Sasuke with blinf hatred and the quest to find revenge ruining his social life, trying to get him to betray his own village by killing one of his best _friends,_ and just when Sasuke was starting to open up to his team and starting to forget about his horrible past and started gaining friends and a social life Itachi comes in and beats the living shit out of him like he always does every time he sees him and ruins that. And that makes Sasuke abandon all of his bonds and head to Oro, the worst part is that he knew Orochimaru wanted Sasuke yet still didn't think twice on the stupid stuff he was doing.




First of, Itachi filled Sasuke with hate in order to make Sasuke strong. That's the point. He wanted Sasuke to be strong enough so he can come kill Itachi so he can pay for his sins. It's NO DIFFERENT than when Minato sealed the Kyuubi into Naruto knowing that it will make Naruto hated by pretty much everyone because of it and give him a difficult life. It was for the greater good. 

Second of all, Orochimaru wanted Sasuke has fuck all to do with Itachi. What was he meant to do? go chase Orochimaru down himself?  He left Sasuke in Konoha's care and they've failed to protect Sasuke. 



> . He put Sasuke and Kakashi in a indefinite coma. Of course they would have recovered, but we don't know how much time that would take. Kakashi never stated he could have been killed by Tsukuyomi, he was just wondering why Itachi got him with Tsukuyomi and didn't run in to finish him off while he was in it, I thought him directly referring to the time he was in it made that obvious, it would be weird to assume that he was talking about Itachi killing him with Tsukuyomi despite him not emphasizing its strength but the time he was in it. Kakashi assumed that itachi could have attacked him in the time span that he was in Tsukuyomi and Kakashi wouldnt have even noticed, but , which we can all infer is blantantly true about the ms. Itachi a good guy orginally? Nah




*How could Itachi attack Kakashi in the time span Kakashi was in Tsukuyomi when Tsukuyomi is in fact, instant?   Think about that.......*

Kakashi stated that he went down instantly and then wondered why Itachi didn't just kill him -> referring to using Tsukuyomi all out to completely destroy Kakashi's mind instead of leaving him in coma. Kisame even suggested the same thing by saying he's surprised Kakashi is still up when he should've been completely out.





Oh, and about Itachi telling Kisame to kill people -> Did you forget that Itachi is a double spy? What was he supposed to tell Kisame?

"Kisame, don't kill them, they're my friends and I am a double spy"?   He still has to play the role of an Akatsuki and as far as we can see, they didn't kill anyone unlike every other akatsuki members who's killed people from Konoha.



The fact that you're using "Why didn't he just kill me" as a way to try and make Itachi a retcon is ridiculous in itself because that statement actually proves that Itachi was planned to be a double spy from the start.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Sinevelle (Apr 12, 2017)

The Death & The Strawberry said:


> glad to see you're back, missed you <3
> Anyways
> 
> filling Sasuke with blinf hatred and the quest to find revenge ruining his social life, trying to get him to betray his own village by killing one of his best _friends,_ and just when Sasuke was starting to open up to his team and starting to forget about his horrible past and started gaining friends and a social life Itachi comes in and beats the living shit out of him like he always does every time he sees him and ruins that. And that makes Sasuke abandon all of his bonds and head to Oro, the worst part is that he knew Orochimaru wanted Sasuke yet still didn't think twice on the stupid stuff he was doing.
> ...


Ah that font color 

Itachi not killing anyone and not abducting Naruto when he clearly could wouldn't make much sense if he was a bad guy. There are two *major* hints Kishimoto gave around that time of Itachi being a double agent. First was the one you provided - Kakashi wondering why he was not killed (as a sidenote: Tsukuyomi work instantaneously, it subjectively distorts the timespace of the recipient  - for Kakashi it was 3 days, for others it was no time at all) the second one would be .
Itachi could easily capture Naruto, but he didn't do that. *If it was a plothole, this statement would not appear in manga* therfore it's logical to assume it is a *direct hint from Kishimoto*.

If he was a bad guy, leaving Sasuke alive and filling him with urge for revenge wouldn't make much sense, since he might become a huge threat in the future.


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## HandfullofNaruto (Apr 14, 2017)

@Troyse22 / @Charmed - are we still on for opening the NBCA TBCA debate today?


*Spoiler*: _Does this look right?_ 



*Match*: Hoshigaki Kisame vs Pein Rikudo
*Location*: Hoshigaki Kisame vs Killer Bee
*Starting Distance*: 50 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Version*: Pein Rikudo (Nagato) / Hoshigaki Kisame w/ Samehada
*Restrictions / Stipulations*:

None

Reactions: Like 1 | Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Apr 14, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Troyse22 / @Charmed - are we still on for opening the NBCA TBCA debate today?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Does this look right?_
> ...




Looks legit

Reactions: Like 1


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## Charmed (Apr 14, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Troyse22 / @Charmed - are we still on for opening the NBCA TBCA debate today?
> 
> 
> *Spoiler*: _Does this look right?_
> ...


Ok I'm in :'D

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Apr 14, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> @Troyse22 / @Charmed - are we still on for opening the NBCA TBCA debate today?






HandfullofNaruto said:


> *Version*: Pein Rikudo (Nagato) / Hoshigaki Kisame w/ Samehada

Reactions: Funny 2 | Coolest Guy! 1


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## Ayala (Apr 19, 2017)

I've been thinking about Itachi the other day, and my conclusion is that Kishi messed up.

The hints that Itachi was secretely a good guy are there, going from what Sapherosth mentioned (S rank misson, Itachi crying...) to different others. When Asuma and Kurenai showed up, he directly told them to get away as he didn't want to kill them, which Asuma stated was strange for someone who has killed the entire clan to say (Itachi stood silent).

The other time is more special, when Jiraiya showed up to save Naruto, he didn't show surprise (in the contrary of Kisame) and didn't attempt to even put a fight (and we know that Itachi can put a fight), despite stating that they had "the supreme order" to take Naruto with them. And it's not like he was intimidated either. That entire sequence was strange.

But there are contradictions.

In his younger years, shortly before the Uchiha massacre, he completely disrespected and insulted them, and the reason was for "his abilities were repressed by this pathetic clan" and said he didn't need regulations and restrictions. Itachi then glanced at Sasuke showing him the MS he had obtained. He brung back the same argument when asked by Sasuke why he killed the clan, saying it was to test his abilities, and proceeded to cause Sasuke a trauma with 24 hours of Tsukiyomi. And asked him to kill his best friend in order to become strong.

For a man that acts in Konoha's side, all those actions don't make sense. He had no reason to bring up hate, he had no reason to tell Sasuke to kill his best friend in order to obtain the MS (directly lying to him, causing him to become a criminal too and ulterior trauma) and he had no reason to instill all the "power" argument into Sasuke. As we learnt later, Itachi himself didn't need those to become strong.

But on the other side again, Itachi didn't really act like a "power corrupted" typical villain either, he wasn't arrogant or typically negative. His actions didn't correspond to his words.

Overall, i could buy Itachi's whole backstory and say it holds up if it wasn't for Sasuke.


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

Does anybody here live in the UK?   I need some survey participants for my dissertation. If you're from the UK and can spare 2 minutes of your time, drop me a message and I'll send you a link.


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## Troyse22 (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Does anybody here live in the UK?   I need some survey participants for my dissertation. If you're from the UK and can spare 2 minutes of your time, drop me a message and I'll send you a link.




Get a job


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## Sapherosth (Apr 19, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Get a job




Get an education


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## Troyse22 (Apr 19, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Get an education



Implying that you, a Briton has one


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 3, 2017)

I'm really feeling up to a debate right now --

@GuidingThunder
@WorldsStrongest
@Bonly
@The Death & The Strawberry
@GuidingThunder
@Sapherosth
@Mithos
@LostSelf
@Matty
@Charmed
@Isaiah13000
@DaVizWiz
@Troyse22
@JiraiyaFlash
@Trizalgia
@Veracity
any of you would be a fine opponent.
_________________________​I'm looking for a simple battle with no NBD superstar characters (unless you can make it really interesting ).

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 3, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> I'm really feeling up to a debate right now --
> 
> @GuidingThunder
> @WorldsStrongest
> ...




Too busy lately, new job, sorry fam 

But I wanna see someone debate for Kakuzu

Reactions: Like 1


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## Bonly (May 3, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Too busy lately, new job, sorry fam
> 
> But I wanna see someone debate for Kakuzu



I'd debate something fierce for Kakuzu

Reactions: Informative 1


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## Parallaxis (May 10, 2017)

I'm up for a debate


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## Tri (May 10, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I'm up for a debate


@HandfullofNaruto Are you still feeling that itch?
I'd like to see you two go at it


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## Troyse22 (May 10, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> I'd like to see you two go at it



Me too *licks lips*

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (May 10, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> @HandfullofNaruto Are you still feeling that itch?
> I'd like to see you two go at it





Troyse22 said:


> Me too *licks lips*


im rusty as fuck though
haven't been active in a while


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 10, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> I'm up for a debate





Trizalgia said:


> @HandfullofNaruto Are you still feeling that itch?
> I'd like to see you two go at it





Troyse22 said:


> Me too *licks lips*


it depends on the topic -- @PhantomSage what're you thinking??


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## Tri (May 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> Me too *licks lips*

Reactions: Like 1 | Dislike 1


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## Parallaxis (May 10, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> it depends on the topic -- @PhantomSage what're you thinking??


whatever you want I guess


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 10, 2017)

PhantomSage said:


> im rusty as fuck though haven't been active in a while


Same here lol - I've been leaving small comments here and there but nothing serious as of late. 


PhantomSage said:


> whatever you want I guess


hmmmm before I give my input - @Troyse22 / @Trizalgia any topics you'd like to see?


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## Tri (May 10, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> hmmmm before I give my input - @Troyse22 / @Trizalgia any topics you'd like to see?


Maybe Deidara vs Pain Arc Kakashi

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (May 11, 2017)

HandfullofNaruto said:


> Same here lol - I've been leaving small comments here and there but nothing serious as of late.
> hmmmm before I give my input - @Troyse22 / @Trizalgia any topics you'd like to see?




Kakuzu vs Orochimaru (healthy body, ET restricted)

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (May 11, 2017)

I want @HandfullofNaruto  (healthy orochimaru) vs @PhantomSage (deidara)

Reactions: Like 1


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 11, 2017)

Trizalgia said:


> Maybe Deidara vs Pain Arc Kakashi


Hmmm I don't like debating against Deidara though I enjoy the Kakashi debates .... PhantomSage what're your thoughts?


Troyse22 said:


> Kakuzu vs Orochimaru (healthy body, ET restricted)


i love supporting Orochimaru .. if @PhantomSage is up for it this may be the one.


professor83 said:


> I want @HandfullofNaruto  (healthy orochimaru) vs @PhantomSage (deidara)


I'm also up for this one.


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## Munboy Dracule O'Brian (May 23, 2017)

Sapherosth said:


> Each post has to be at least 500 words and under 1500 words.



Do image links and hyperlinks (including those embedded into the words themselves) count towards the word count?

Also, would the threads be similar to some tournaments where the poster makes a strategy for the character to use or do we operate under the IC notion?


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## HandfullofNaruto (May 23, 2017)

Munboy Dracule O'Brian said:


> Do image links and hyperlinks (including those embedded into the words themselves) count towards the word count?


If embedded into words they will not count -- if left alone then they will be counted towards word count. 





> Also, would the threads be similar to some tournaments where the poster makes a strategy for the character to use or do we operate under the IC notion?


Normally we operate under the "IC notion" as you like to call it -- if you'd like your debate to be focused on battle strategies you can make the request clear to your opponent and carry on with the debate however you like. All in all it depends on your topic and your opponent .. each member debates a bit differently but the purpose of the Arena is to bring your normal battledoming skills (what we do here everyday) to a "vs" setting .. just one on one with another member.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Jun 23, 2017)

I think it's time for Kisame vs EMS Sasuke...


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## Ishmael (Jun 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I think it's time for Kisame vs EMS Sasuke...



 hmmm...


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## The_Conqueror (Jun 23, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> I think it's time for Kisame vs EMS Sasuke...


I think its time you realize that its genjutsu gg
Make that 5 year old sasuke and its still genjutsu gg. 
Even after knowing about sharingan kisame directly looked into the eyes of uchiha

Reactions: Funny 1


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## theRonin (Jul 20, 2017)

professor83 said:


> I think its time you realize that its genjutsu gg
> Make that 5 year old sasuke and its still genjutsu gg.
> Even after knowing about sharingan kisame directly looked into the eyes of uchiha


Samehada will break him out of it the next moment.


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## Platypus (Jul 25, 2017)

Someone save a link to this thread in case you want to bring it back at some point. Unstickying it to lower the amount of stickies in the section.


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2017)

You think Kisame is a high kage above the likes of Pein and Itachi? Well let's put it to a test.

I challenge you to Itachi vs Kisame TBCA matchup

@Troyse22

Do you accept 

No judges, but if so you can pick them so I don't hear "lol bias"

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> You think Kisame is a high kage above the likes of Pein and Itachi? Well let's put it to a test.
> 
> I challenge you to Itachi vs Kisame TBCA matchup
> 
> ...


Holy hell it has been a MINUTE since TBCA has been in my feed

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> You think Kisame is a high kage above the likes of Pein and Itachi? Well let's put it to a test.
> 
> I challenge you to Itachi vs Kisame TBCA matchup
> 
> ...




K

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Holy hell it has been a MINUTE since TBCA has been in my feed


Well its been resurrected by yours truly


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> K


Really?

OK all we need is for someone to make the thread


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2017)

Interesting, I've always wanted to participate then these but the time you have to put in and word count, structure etc..was a turn off.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

@Serene Grace 
@Troyse22 

Glhf boys

Ill have fun watching im sure

Also curious to see who the judges will be this go around

If i may be so bold...

Id recommend @Bonly @HandfullofNaruto @Professor83 @LostSelf 

Provided they are down for it and not too busy of course

Just some quality objective posters i could name off the top of my head

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Serene Grace
> @Troyse22
> 
> Glhf boys
> ...


Pretty sure Troyse wouldn't approve of most of them. I'll make the thread I guess, just post the stipulations and stuff and I'll make it

Reactions: Like 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> @Professor83





WorldsStrongest said:


> quality objective posters





The rest are fine even though @Bonly has been a little aggressive lately

Reactions: Funny 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


>




Dont be at it


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> The rest are fine even though @Bonly has been a little aggressive lately


Last I was active on the forums you and Handfull didn't get along too well 

Wait troyse list the stipulations of the match that you're comfortable debating with

Reactions: Like 1


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2017)

I could always judge  I'm feeling jolly And I'm one of the most friendliest posters around.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Parallaxis said:


> Pretty sure Troyse wouldn't approve of most of them


In that case

@Trizalgia 
@Itachі 
@Braiyan 

Are 3 more objective posters with quality content imo

Any of these guys or these dudes from earlier would make good judges 


WorldsStrongest said:


> Id recommend @Bonly @HandfullofNaruto @Professor83 @LostSelf

Reactions: Friendly 2


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

KC said:


> I could always judge  I'm feeling jolly And I'm one of the most friendliest posters around.


Just noticed i follow you but dont recognize the UN...Did you change it at any point?


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## Serene Grace (Dec 8, 2017)

Parallaxis said:


> Pretty sure Troyse wouldn't approve of most of them. I'll make the thread I guess, just post the stipulations and stuff and I'll make it




Location : Madara vs Gokage
Restrictions: None
Stips: Itachi does not have his sickness
Mindset: IC+To kill
Distance: 20m

You OK with this? Edit anything you want @Troyse22


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Just noticed i follow you but dont recognize the UN...Did you change it at any point?



Lazlolazzing, then simply lazlo.


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

KC said:


> Lazlolazzing, then simply lazlo.


Oh dude

Baller

Had no idea lol


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2017)

@Charmed
@LostSelf
@Gohara 

I nom these 3 to judge.



Serene Grace said:


> Location : Madara vs Gokage
> Restrictions: None
> Stips: Itachi does not have his sickness
> Mindset: IC+To kill
> ...




So you think Kisame>Sick Itachi?

Anyways yeah I'm good with the stipulations u posted

Reactions: Like 1


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2017)

I think we should do it more direct such as

- Troyse makes an intro
- Straw makes a rebuttal of that intro
- Troyse counters that, and so on

Rather than the old system in place where both would make intros, both would then make rebuttals to the intros, then both would make rebuttals to each other's rebuttals. We could also do votes instead of judges, and then to prevent bias each debater can blacklist 1 poster from voting


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## Troyse22 (Dec 8, 2017)

Parallaxis said:


> I think we should do it more direct such as
> 
> - Troyse makes an intro
> - Straw makes a rebuttal of that intro
> ...




That's up to @Sapherosth


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Parallaxis said:


> I think we should do it more direct such as
> 
> - Troyse makes an intro
> - Straw makes a rebuttal of that intro
> ...


I never had issue with the old system tbh

That way each poster got the same equal opportunity as their opponents

1 intro each

And 2 rebuttals each

Its nice n balanced with equal POVs

Up to the judges and the posters participating tho i guess 

Just my 2 cents

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> That's up to @Sapherosth


Does he even post anymore?

Never see him


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## Parallaxis (Dec 8, 2017)

Do you guys want a time limit or not? I say we just do it 1 intro each then 2 rebuttals each so like Worlds said, everyone gets an equal oppurtunity.

Reactions: Neutral 1


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## Bonly (Dec 8, 2017)

I'd like to decline the noms to be a judge


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## Ishmael (Dec 8, 2017)

No love for me?


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 8, 2017)

Bonly said:


> I'd like to decline the noms to be a judge


Shame


KC said:


> No love for me?


If i knew who you were at first bro i would have

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2017)

@WorldsStrongest you should judge Troyse donesot have it bad with you and you did a fabulous job the last time


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 8, 2017)

I recomend @oiety @Trizalgia as Judges

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## oiety (Dec 8, 2017)

Professor83 said:


> I recomend @oiety @Trizalgia as Judges



I accept.

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2017)

Professor83 said:


> @WorldsStrongest you should judge Troyse donesot have it bad with you and you did a fabulous job the last time


I judged before?


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> I judged before?


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## Troyse22 (Dec 9, 2017)

Yeah to my recall @WorldsStrongest judging is the only one that didn't reek of bias


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 9, 2017)

I’m up for it — I have nothing going on. 

edit: assuming @Troyse22 will have me.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 1


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## Tri (Dec 9, 2017)

Serene and I talk in a couple convo threads so I'll have to decline being a judge.

Thanks for the noms though

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2017)

Lol

Hot damn i guess i did


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2017)

Ill also decline the judge nom

Dont think ill have the time in the upcoming days


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## Charmed (Dec 9, 2017)

I'm in :'D I'll help you guys judge :'D!
<3!
@Troyse22
@Serene Grace

*Location : *Madara vs Gokage
*Restrictions: *None
*Stips: *Itachi does not have his sickness
*Mindset: *IC+To kill
*Distance: *20m

Strawberry should start, couse he/she challanged Troyse first :'D
And I think we shoud add  Sharingan Genjutsu Knowledge for Kisame.

*Sento Kaishi!*


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 9, 2017)

If you guys have any questions about time limits, introductions/rebuttals, amounts of posts or whatever then you can discuss it with me. (@Troyse22 / @Serene Grace)


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## HandfullofNaruto (Dec 9, 2017)

@Troyse22 / @Serene Grace — if you both want judges on this match then make a final decision on your three judges and be sure they also agree to judge the debate. You also have the option of leaving it up to votes though on a topic like this I’d suggest finding some level-headed judges. Anyway once you sort that out I can post up this thread for you two —

*Match*: Hoshigaki Kisame (Troyse22) vs Uchiha Itachi (Serene Grace)
*Location*: Madara vs Gokage
*Starting Distance*: 20 Meters
*Knowledge*: Manga
*Mindset*: IC + To Kill
*Version*: Uchiha Itachi (Alive) / Hoshigaki Kisame (w/ Samehada)
*Restrictions*: 

None
*Stipulations*: 

Itachi’s illness is canceled out
If your going to follow the regular TBCA rules then you’ll both start with one introduction —> create a rebuttal —> create a final rebuttal. It will end with both of you creating three posts. 

Edit:  

 Being TBCA admin means shit these days

Reactions: Funny 1 | Informative 1 | Friendly 1


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## Braiyan (Dec 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> In that case
> 
> @Trizalgia
> @Itachі
> ...



Appreciate the nomination, but I'm far too busy at the moment, so I'll have to decline .

Reactions: Like 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2017)

Braiyan said:


> Appreciate the nomination, but I'm far too busy at the moment, so I'll have to decline .


Shame tho


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## Serene Grace (Dec 9, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Shame tho


y dont u judge 

Troy liked your verdict last time


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## WorldsStrongest (Dec 9, 2017)

Serene Grace said:


> y dont u judge
> 
> Troy liked your verdict last time





WorldsStrongest said:


> Ill also decline the judge nom
> 
> Dont think ill have the time in the upcoming days

Reactions: Informative 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 10, 2017)

@Troyse22 when do we expect your reply

Reactions: Useful 1


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## Troyse22 (Dec 10, 2017)

Professor83 said:


> @Troyse22 when do we expect your reply




In the hospital, four wheeler accident. Wasn't bad until I started getting extreme muscle spasms

I concede this debate @Serene Grace I just don't have the energy (or a computer rn for that matter)

Reactions: Like 1


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## The_Conqueror (Dec 10, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> In the hospital, four wheeler accident. Wasn't bad until I started getting extreme muscle spasms


Get well soon Troy

Reactions: Agree 1 | Friendly 1


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## LostSelf (Dec 11, 2017)

Troyse22 said:


> @Charmed
> @LostSelf
> @Gohara
> 
> ...



I guess i came a bit late? 

I can judge, not sure if everytime,though. But i could.


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## Troyse22 (Dec 11, 2017)

LostSelf said:


> I guess i came a bit late?


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## Gohara (Dec 12, 2017)

I'm pretty busy as well but wouldn't mind if you guys really want judges although I think that the discussion is being postponed so here's to a speedy recovery for Troy after the car accident.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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