# Sora vs.  Son Goku



## HollowDemon (Jan 17, 2008)

both at there best. Who wins?




VS.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Anime Goku?
Because then he can bust planets, and that would be the safest way to beat Sora,actually.

Of course, he still managed to survive his whole world being consumed by darkness, so I'm not so sure he would die by that...

But anyway, Sora could use Reflega, and then Goku kills himself, basically...


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## HollowDemon (Jan 17, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Anime Goku?
> Because then he can bust planets, and that would be the safest way to beat Sora,actually.
> 
> Of course, he still managed to survive his whole world being consumed by darkness, so I'm not so sure he would die by that...
> ...



Thats what i was thinking. But does Sora have anything to counter, goku IT to the otehr side of the planet, then blowing it up? I dont think he does, and with hat, it would end in a tie


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually, Sora seems to have some teleportation (since people don't like the FTL argument, I hope that everyone can agree that Sora has teleportation, at least, when he deals with Xigbar like that...).

So, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to just follow Goku.

Also, this isn't in character, is it?
Because then Goku would never destroy the world...


Anyway, the only real chance Goku has is to destroy the World, and then move towards Namek, somehow, even though he doesn't know the direction, and then find the dragonballs there, before wishing for the Earth to come back, sans Sora...

If he tries to fight head on with Sora, he most likely loses, being beaten by himself thanks to Reflega (dear god, that is fun to do against enemies!)


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## HollowDemon (Jan 17, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Actually, Sora seems to have some teleportation (since people don't like the FTL argument, I hope that everyone can agree that Sora has teleportation, at least, when he deals with Xigbar like that...).
> 
> So, I don't see why he wouldn't be able to just follow Goku.
> 
> ...



Sora doesnt have the traveleing feats to make him keep up with a flying goku or even find goku, if goku IT across the planet. how would sora know where he is? Sora defeintely has faster reaction timing and faster combat speed, but not traveling speed. I guess it would end in a tie or sora wins


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

No, it can end in Sora winning by combat, or Goku winning by busting the planet...


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 17, 2008)

Am I the only one still laughing at the fact that the OP used cosplay pictures for this?


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## Naruto Uzumaki (Jan 17, 2008)

Goku pawns all
kamaha the keyblade to pieces.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Am I the only one still laughing at the fact that the OP used cosplay pictures for this?



No.
No, you aren't.

Unoace, the Keyblade has taken attacks from a being that is tronger than Gods, and is in fact the strongest being in the multiverse...


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 17, 2008)

Keyblade is made of pure Plot Power, so I don't think it can ever be broken unless there is equal Plot Power sent out against it.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

So, LHW and stuff like that then?

Anyway, the Keyblade isn't going to be broken.
But what I want to know is, will Sora actually die if the world they are fighting on gets destroyed?
I mean, he did survive his own world being annihilated, and came out pretty much ok, and that was in the first game...

Not to mention that he can, for short periods of time, move in dark corridors, it seems...


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 17, 2008)

Yes he will.  Exploding planets hurt.  A lot.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Ah, so the surviving his own worlds destruction feat doesn't count then?


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## HollowDemon (Jan 17, 2008)

Well if goku did that it would end in a tie. so if goku fought with sora, and didnt pull the IT- planet busting. Is it clear that sora would pwn SSJ 3 goku?


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## Shiron (Jan 17, 2008)

Goku wins.

Goku starts by going in close range and using physical attacks. Sora uses Reflega to attempt to reflect them back at him, but it fails, and Goku's punches break through, KOing Sora. If it doesn't beat him, then Goku repeats the process, using ki attacks if necessary, until Sora is defeated.

And yes, this can be done... See: The preview for Birth by Sleep at the end of KHII:FM+. Reflect was broken by a mass of keyblades in it; there's no way it's sending Goku's attacks back at him.

Although, if Genie and such is allowed, then Sora would win of course.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 17, 2008)

Shiron said:


> And yes, this can be done... See: The preview for Birth by Sleep at the end of KHII:FM+. Reflect was broken by a mass of keyblades in it; there's no way it's sending Goku's attacks back at him.



That was Reflect?  I thought it was just a generic energy shield.  Not that it really matters here.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually, that wasn't used by Sora, and we haven't really seen that many attacks by those knights, or their enemy yet.

Besides, Sora could use the spell to block attacks from a being superior to a God and not one of those "gods" of dbz.

So, until we see the difference in strength between Sora and the other knights, we won't know if the thing that would break the female Knights spell would do the same for Sora and his, since Sora did manage to beat one of the Knights, so he is most likely stronger than one of them, but we haven't found out about the others.

Add to the fact that hidden bosses in the KH games are stronger than they are when they become regular bosses, and this is pretty certain that Sora is stronger than the female knight.

Besides, was it really Reflega?
I thought it was another spell, a weaker one.


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## atom (Jan 17, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> Sora doesnt have the traveleing feats to make him keep up with a flying goku or even find goku, if goku IT across the planet. how would sora know where he is? Sora defeintely has faster reaction timing and faster combat speed, but not traveling speed. I guess it would end in a tie or sora wins


No he doesn't. Sora and most people in Kingdom Hearts are vastly overrated. Dragonball is overrated as well.


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 17, 2008)

Sonic said:


> No he doesn't. Sora and most people in Kingdom Hearts are vastly overrated. Dragonball is overrated as well.



Add Yuyu Hakusho to the list.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> Add Yuyu Hakusho to the list.



And Sonicverse as well, I would guess...


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## Shiron (Jan 17, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Actually, that wasn't used by Sora, and we haven't really seen that many attacks by those knights, or their enemy yet.
> 
> Besides, Sora could use the spell to block attacks from a being superior to a God and not one of those "gods" of dbz.
> 
> ...


The point is, Reflect has been shown to be breakable. Thus, assuming that Sora is somehow exempt from this limit, whatever it may be, is just a no limits fallacy. Based on Birth By Sleep, it stands to logic that Sora's reflect must have a limit as well (all three people were keyblade wielders, just like Sora. Sora might be stronger than them, as evidenced by KH:FM+, but there's no way the strength difference would be enough for Sora to actually be able to tank one of Goku's attacks, when Ven, Aqua, and Terra showed nothing close to that abillity).

But then again, I suppose it doesn't matter. If Reflect doesn't work, Sora would switch tactics, eventually to Genie if all else fails. Sora can just have Genie send Goku into space or whatever, leaving Goku for dead.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

My point, actually, is if that was Reflega or not?
And are you sure it didn't just end, since the spell does that...


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## Shiron (Jan 17, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> My point, actually, is if that was Reflega or not?


Doesn't really matter; if one has a limit, they logically all do. The limit might be higher, but it would still be there. No way it would be exponentially powerful enough to reflect one of Goku's attacks though.



> And are you sure it didn't just end, since the spell does that...


In that case, it ended without being able to generate the force to be able to reflect the Keyblades, again establishing that it has a limit.


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## Ax_ (Jan 17, 2008)

Actually, isn't it so that it counts the number of attacks against the Reflega?
If that is the case, that means the attack is explainable when it comes to breaking through the Reflega...


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## Enclave (Jan 17, 2008)

Shiron said:


> Doesn't really matter; if one has a limit, they logically all do. The limit might be higher, but it would still be there. No way it would be exponentially powerful enough to reflect one of Goku's attacks though.



Please, Goku in base cannot even lift 10 tonne weights strapped to each of his limbs.  No way is his physical attack power going to be anywhere close to enought to break through Reflect.



> In that case, it ended without being able to generate the force to be able to reflect the Keyblades, again establishing that it has a limit.



Master Xehanort is in all likelyhood even more powerful than Twilight Xemnas, so yes I'm not at all surprised he defeated Terra, Ven and Aqua.  Also, that spell didn't appear to be the Reflect spell, it seemed more similar to Riku's Dark Shield, just completely surrounding the person instead of just 1 side of a person.  Why does it seem more like Riku's Dark Shield than Reflect?  None of the damage from those keyblades seemed to go back and affect Master Xehanort.

Anyways, if Goku goes up close then it's all over.  No way is he anywhere close to Sora's speed.  He would be beaten senseless in a close range fight.  His best bet would be ki attacks from a distance, but even that isn't a sure win.  Also, destroying the planet is a lose for Goku.  See, Sora has survived the destruction of a world before, Goku on the other hand hasn't.


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jan 17, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Anyways, if Goku goes up close then it's all over.  No way is he anywhere close to Sora's speed.  He would be beaten senseless in a close range fight.  His best bet would be ki attacks from a distance, but even that isn't a sure win.  Also, destroying the planet is a lose for Goku.  See, Sora has survived the destruction of a world before, Goku on the other hand hasn't.



First of all, the Sora laser feat seems to be taken as false here in the OBD, so Sora doesn't really have anything else besides teleportation which Goku can do too.
Sora survived a world being swallowed in darkness, it didn't explode, there is a difference.


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## Enclave (Jan 17, 2008)

AJpinecrest2 said:


> First of all, the Sora laser feat seems to be taken as false here in the OBD, so Sora doesn't really have anything else besides teleportation which Goku can do too.
> Sora survived a world being swallowed in darkness, it didn't explode, there is a difference.



Oh please, the feat hasn't been taken as false.  It's just some people don't want to accept it for some reason even though it is blatantly a laser feat.  I've not seen any convincing argument to not accept it.  The only argument that was halfway convincing was when somebody tried to say that since Sora could reflect the lasers with his Keyblade that it meant that they had a physical form and thus couldn't be lasers, however I countered that by pointing out that Sora has reflected fire before and fire has no physical form and that didn't stop the keyblade from deflecting it.


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## HollowDemon (Jan 17, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Oh please, the feat hasn't been taken as false.  It's just some people don't want to accept it for some reason even though it is blatantly a laser feat.  I've not seen any convincing argument to not accept it.  The only argument that was halfway convincing was when somebody tried to say that since Sora could reflect the lasers with his Keyblade that it meant that they had a physical form and thus couldn't be lasers, however I countered that by pointing out that Sora has reflected fire before and fire has no physical form and that didn't stop the keyblade from deflecting it.



I agree. The keyblade is "magic". I dont see why people use real world logic in a game. Its a game, shit happens, games and anime defy logic.


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## Kuya (Jan 17, 2008)

Goku would need to power up a little, not fully to Super Saiyan, but he would need to power up a little and he could beat Sora.


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## Flamefang (Jan 17, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Oh please, the feat hasn't been taken as false.  It's just some people don't want to accept it for some reason even though it is blatantly a laser feat.  I've not seen any convincing argument to not accept it.  The only argument that was halfway convincing was when somebody tried to say that since Sora could reflect the lasers with his Keyblade that it meant that they had a physical form and thus couldn't be lasers, however I countered that by pointing out that Sora has reflected fire before and fire has no physical form and that didn't stop the keyblade from deflecting it.



Actually since they do not have the properties of real lasers (physical form, bolts shape), then these "lasers" are not really lasers. Since they are not real world lasers, there is no proof that the "lasers" actually move at light speed. Regard them as an fictional creation, like a ki blast or w/e you wish, but they are no lasers


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Oh please, the feat hasn't been taken as false.  It's just some people don't want to accept it for some reason even though it is blatantly a laser feat.  I've not seen any convincing argument to not accept it.  The only argument that was halfway convincing was when somebody tried to say that since Sora could reflect the lasers with his Keyblade that it meant that they had a physical form and thus couldn't be lasers, however I countered that by pointing out that Sora has reflected fire before and fire has no physical form and that didn't stop the keyblade from deflecting it.



You should really start posting this in the KH speed feats thread.


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## Superrazien (Jan 18, 2008)

Well first off they wouldn't fight, but if they did and were in character it would be more like a sparing match which Goku would probably win since he just loves fighting, and has more experience, ect..

If its blood lust Goku wins, Sora may be able to keep up with one of his levels of speed, but Gokus punches are more than enough to damage him badly( don't give me that 10-40 ton crap, Goku as a kid had a PL of 10 and was already 2-3X stronger than your average man and he lifted a car, by the Freiza saga his PL is in the millions), add that with energy blasts that can destory planets ( arguably  solar systems if you go by Cell's statement).

I think Sora would put up a good fight given spells but I don't see Goku needing to go past Super Saiyan for this.


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> Well first off they wouldn't fight, but if they did and were in character it would be more like a sparing match which Goku would probably win since he just loves fighting, and has more experience, ect..
> 
> If its blood lust Goku wins, Sora may be able to keep up with one of his levels of speed, but Gokus punches are more than enough to damage him badly( don't give me that 10-40 ton crap, Goku as a kid had a PL of 10 and was already 2-3X stronger than your average man and he lifted a car, by the Freiza saga his PL is in the millions), add that with energy blasts that can destory planets ( arguably  solar systems if you go by Cell's statement).
> 
> I think Sora would put up a good fight given spells but I don't see Goku needing to go past Super Saiyan for this.


Whats with the "they wouldnt fight"? Like every single battle in the OBD is a fight that wouldnt happen. Are you high?


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Also, like in the YYHverse threads, we don't go by hyperbole here...


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## dragonflare (Jan 18, 2008)

Just want to add... if Sora gets Genie, Goku should get Shenron


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

dragonflare said:


> Just want to add... if Sora gets Genie, Goku should get Shenron



fail. Sora can summon genie at will, goku has to hunt 7 dragon balls.


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## KJoker (Jan 18, 2008)

*sigh* Goku wins. He simply has too much power. Sora would put up a fair fight though, but goku would win, he's too surreal to lose.


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## Banhammer (Jan 18, 2008)

Sora time stops and stabs his heart out


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Sora time stops and stabs his heart out



Pretty good point.
He could just constantly stop time, and then move towards Goku and attack...


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## atom (Jan 18, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Pretty good point.
> He could just constantly stop time, and then move towards Goku and attack...


Even if time was stopped, you really think Sora could hurt Goku? lol


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Even if time was stopped, you really think Sora could hurt Goku? lol



Lol, not a one-hit kill, obviously, but after a couple of thousands, that should work, shouldn't it?

Besides, wasn't it stated that this is the anime Goku?
It pretty much has to, so that Goku can be a planet buster...
That guy takes forever to charge up attacks anyway...


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## atom (Jan 18, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Lol, not a one-hit kill, obviously, but after a couple of thousands, that should work, shouldn't it?
> 
> Besides, wasn't it stated that this is the anime Goku?
> It pretty much has to, so that Goku can be a planet buster...
> That guy takes forever to charge up attacks anyway...


When you punch a brick wall, punching it more and more won't change the effect. (You won't be able to destroy it)


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

He is using a cutting weapon, though...
With enough hits, Goku would start bleeding, though it would take alot...


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## atom (Jan 18, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> He is using a cutting weapon, though...
> With enough hits, Goku would start bleeding, though it would take alot...


Trunks sword slashes didn't even hurt Goku. What makes you think Sora would do anything?


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Well, the Keyblade has better feats than Trunks' sword, for one thing...

Also, there is the fact that it can actually kill some pretty strong beings, like the Olympian gods, and those things, as well as the titans...


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## Superrazien (Jan 18, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Well, the Keyblade has better feats than Trunks' sword, for one thing...
> 
> Also, there is the fact that it can actually kill some pretty strong beings, like the Olympian gods, and those things, as well as the titans...



Keyblade slays evil, if your just using it as a regular weapons its nothing that amazing, nothing Trunks probably couldn't do.


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## Ax_ (Jan 18, 2008)

Actually, the Keyblade in itself is far better than the weapon Trunks has.
I'm not commenting on the respective strength of the wielders here...


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Sonic said:


> Trunks sword slashes didn't even hurt Goku. What makes you think Sora would do anything?



Sora has dropped gods with that keyblade. HERCULES! a far stronger being then goku!


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## atom (Jan 18, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> Sora has dropped gods with that keyblade. HERCULES! a far stronger being then goku!


not really


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## dragonflare (Jan 18, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> fail. Sora can summon genie at will, goku has to hunt 7 dragon balls.



What fail. Goku starts with the 7 dragonballs.

EDIT:
Forgot you are the OP. Suggests if one side gets a wish-granter, the other does too.


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## DoomBringer (Jan 18, 2008)

Sonic said:


> not really



Hercules is stronger than Goku, at least physically.


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## Estrecca (Jan 18, 2008)

Based on my own perceptions of the characters, I am going to support Goku in this one. 

If this scenario played with an end of Dragonball Goku, I might consider changing my mind, but in this case the difference between the destructive power that Goku casually throws around and the best Sora has in this regard is simply too big. 

Son Goku wins the day. Afterwards, he uses the Dragonballs to resurrect Sora, because he seemed a nice boy, and both of them go beat Vegeta, who has somehow managed to end turned into a Heartless during this battle.


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> Based on my own perceptions of the characters, I am going to support Goku in this one.
> 
> If this scenario played with an end of Dragonball Goku, I might consider changing my mind, but in this case the difference between the destructive power that Goku casually throws around and the best Sora has in this regard is simply too big.
> 
> Son Goku wins the day. Afterwards, he uses the Dragonballs to resurrect Sora, because he seemed a nice boy, and both of them go beat Vegeta, who has somehow managed to end turned into a Heartless during this battle.



This is end dragonball goku. freaking SSj 3 vs. the Key blade master


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## Enclave (Jan 18, 2008)

> physical form, bolts shape



The only "evidence" that they have a physical form is the fact that Sora has reflected them with the Keyblade, however the fact that he can reflect things that don't have a physical form negates that "fact".  Bolt shape is meaningless, just means it isn't a continuous beam.



Superrazien said:


> Keyblade slays evil, if your just using it as a regular weapons its nothing that amazing, nothing Trunks probably couldn't do.



Where did you get this falsehood from?  The Keyblade doesn't slay evil, it slays anything.  It's just particularly effective against Heartless in that instead of killing a Heartless it releases the heart so it can rejoin Kingdom Hearts or return to it's body.


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## Superrazien (Jan 18, 2008)

Enclave said:


> The only "evidence" that they have a physical form is the fact that Sora has reflected them with the Keyblade, however the fact that he can reflect things that don't have a physical form negates that "fact".  Bolt shape is meaningless, just means it isn't a continuous beam.
> 
> 
> 
> Where did you get this falsehood from?  The Keyblade doesn't slay evil, it slays anything.  It's just particularly effective against Heartless in that instead of killing a Heartless it releases the heart so it can rejoin Kingdom Hearts or return to it's body.



Well of course it can kill anything its a blunt object, but its power is not as effective if its not fighting a heartless or nobody. Hitting someone like Goku would be the same as if you hit him with a bat.


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> Well of course it can kill anything its a blunt object, but its power is not as effective if its not fighting a heartless or nobody. Hitting someone like Goku would be the same as if you hit him with a bat.



Hmmmm, you kind of have a point my good lad. The keyblade has never been tested against somone with a pure heart. Hell, Goku's heart can possibly be as strong as Sora's. You might be on to something Raizen.


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## Banhammer (Jan 18, 2008)

Keyblade does not only slay evil, in fact the prophecie states
"The Keyblade will either be a bringer of peace, or the cause of much war and distruction"
Time stop, head slice


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## Wuzzman (Jan 18, 2008)

Shiron said:


> Goku wins.
> 
> Goku starts by going in close range and using physical attacks. Sora uses Reflega to attempt to reflect them back at him, but it fails, and Goku's punches break through, KOing Sora. If it doesn't beat him, then Goku repeats the process, using ki attacks if necessary, until Sora is defeated.
> 
> ...



mass of keyblades>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>goku punch.


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## Banhammer (Jan 18, 2008)

Dosen'y Sora need Donald nd Gooffy to summon Genie?


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## Wuzzman (Jan 18, 2008)

I don't think this is worth argueing. First people have very little understanding of the keyblades capabilities. Second, people are on this "dbz overrated" high and it really makes threads like this very unintelligent when you have people thinking that Goku can't even lift 10 tons(which means spiderman hits HARDER then him...).


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Wuzzman said:


> I don't think this is worth argueing. First people have very little understanding of the keyblades capabilities. Second, people are on this "dbz overrated" high and it really makes threads like this very unintelligent when you have people thinking that Goku can't even lift 10 tons(which means spiderman hits HARDER then him...).




Everyone knows that was inconsistency. Goku is at least class 100


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## Enclave (Jan 18, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> Well of course it can kill anything its a blunt object, but its power is not as effective if its not fighting a heartless or nobody. Hitting someone like Goku would be the same as if you hit him with a bat.



Actually the Keyblade is a bladed object.  Just because it appears blunt doesn't mean it IS blunt.  Remember, it's a magical weapon.

Anyways, no hitting Goku with a Keyblade would be like attacking him with a bladed sword not a blunt object.  The Keyblade is not especially powerful against Heartless or Nobodys, that isn't how it works.  The unique thing about the Keyblade is that it can release the hearts of the Heartless back to Kingdom Hearts.  That is how it is especially effective against Heartless.

Also none of this "pure heart" crap either, that also isn't how the Keyblade works.  It is a completely neutral weapon for good or evil, it all depends on how the wielder uses it.

Also we HAVE seen the Keyblade work on living beings, it was used on Ursula, Malificient, Jafar, Genie Jafar, and many more.  I really don't get why people think the Keyblade is suddenly a weaker weapon when used against non-heartless/nobodys.  Thinking that is about as wrong as the people who think that mud will hurt Captain Planet.



HollowDemon said:


> Everyone knows that was inconsistency. Goku is at least class 100



Do you have evidence that it was an inconsistency?  In base he cannot lift 10 tonne weights strapped to each of his limbs.  All this really shows is that Dragonball characters are not overly physically powerful and that their real power comes from their ki manipulation (which is something that is painfully obvious throughout most of the series).

See, for a comic fan this makes sense.  Just because you have really high level energy manipulation doesn't mean that your physical strength also is equally as powerful.

This of course also implies that Dragonball characters physical resistances are considerably lower than their energy defenses which again makes sense as physical resistance and energy resistance don't always come from the same powerset.


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## HollowDemon (Jan 18, 2008)

Enclave said:


> Actually the Keyblade is a bladed object.  Just because it appears blunt doesn't mean it IS blunt.  Remember, it's a magical weapon.
> 
> Anyways, no hitting Goku with a Keyblade would be like attacking him with a bladed sword not a blunt object.  The Keyblade is not especially powerful against Heartless or Nobodys, that isn't how it works.  The unique thing about the Keyblade is that it can release the hearts of the Heartless back to Kingdom Hearts.  That is how it is especially effective against Heartless.
> 
> ...



Goku pushing a mountain when he was a kid, tao poa throwing a log 1000 miles and riding on it. These are all guys that goku is WAYY stronger then now. And dont call my arguments crap.


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## Enclave (Jan 18, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> Goku pushing a mountain when he was a kid, tao poa throwing a log 1000 miles and riding on it. These are all guys that goku is WAYY stronger then now. And dont call my arguments crap.



He pushed a big rock, not a mountain.  Tao throwing the pillar for travel is yet one more of the comedy moments from early dragonball, here's a hint, you cannot take early dragonball too seriously as it was a comedy manga initially.  No other character has had anywhere close to that kind of strength feat anywhere in the manga.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

^ Enclave. The manga doesn't display any amazing strength feats at all actually. 
Anime might be a different story (especially the movies, but those are like super duper not cannon). Don't get me wrong, I love Dragonball to death, but overrating it is pointless.
That being said, I think Sora's only chance in this case (albeit a good one) is to time stop to win. If that doesn't work, then he loses. Hard. And Goku could always IT blitz as well


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## Mashiro (Jan 19, 2008)

i was thinking the same thing, soup nazi from seinfeld.


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## Enclave (Jan 19, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> ^ Enclave. The manga doesn't display any amazing strength feats at all actually.
> Anime might be a different story (especially the movies, but those are like super duper not cannon). Don't get me wrong, I love Dragonball to death, but overrating it is pointless.
> That being said, I think Sora's only chance in this case (albeit a good one) is to time stop to win. If that doesn't work, then he loses. Hard. And Goku could always IT blitz as well



Where am I over-rating Dragonball characters level of strength?

edit:

Oh by the way, Goku cannot IT blitz as IT takes a bit of time to actually do.  Notice how only in the non-canon movies does he ever IT blitz?  Not once in the manga does he ever do that.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

I wasnt talking about you, Enclave. I was talking about that Hollow kid. 
Didn't Goku fuck up Cell with his IT kamehameha? Or is that not cannon...


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## Enclave (Jan 19, 2008)

No, no.  He did do that to Cell.  However that wasn't an IT blitz.  It was a strategic use of IT.  An IT blitz implies that he is repeatedly and rapidly using IT to attack from multiple different angles at an incredibly fast rate.  Against Cell Goku had just used IT for 1 single move, it wasn't even all that speedy it was more just for the surprise factor.


----------



## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

Enclave said:


> He pushed a big rock, not a mountain.  Tao throwing the pillar for travel is yet one more of the comedy moments from early dragonball, here's a hint, you cannot take early dragonball too seriously as it was a comedy manga initially.  No other character has had anywhere close to that kind of strength feat anywhere in the manga.



Oh ok, i got you now. So DBZ just bases there power off of KI? I got it now. I guess i was brain washed by all these DBZ fans in here who talk how they are all mighty and strong like supes.
That means Luffy>>>>goku in strentgh?


soupnazi235 said:


> I wasnt talking about you, Enclave. I was talking about that Hollow kid.
> Didn't Goku fuck up Cell with his IT kamehameha? Or is that not cannon...


lol@ Hollow kid. Thats a pretty badass name. I might change to that. Thanks for the thought


----------



## Enclave (Jan 19, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> That means Luffy>>>>goku in strentgh?



Pretty much, yes.  He does have greater strength feats.

Why is this surprising though?  Dragonball characters are energy manipulators.  That doesn't mean that they are going to be overly physically powerful as well.


----------



## Superrazien (Jan 19, 2008)

> Actually the Keyblade is a bladed object.  Just because it appears blunt doesn't mean it IS blunt.  Remember, it's a magical weapon.
> 
> Anyways, no hitting Goku with a Keyblade would be like attacking him with a bladed sword not a blunt object.  The Keyblade is not especially powerful against Heartless or Nobodys, that isn't how it works.  The unique thing about the Keyblade is that it can release the hearts of the Heartless back to Kingdom Hearts.  That is how it is especially effective against Heartless.
> 
> ...



I've played all the Kingdom Hearts, but my memory might fail me since I haven't played it in a while, but has Sora cut anyone in half that wasn't a heartless or a nobody? Or maybe since slicing people in half is to graphic for Disney, has Sora at least left marks on someones clothes with the keyblade? But even so, even if it did act like a sword, we all seen how a sword works on Goku, he fought Trunks off who had superior strength over Sora attack Goku and Goku used his finger to block it blow for blow effortlessly. Also as a kid Goku was already bullet proof, so I doubt the keyblade, if it acts as a blunt object or a sharp one, I fail to see how it is a threat for Goku.





> Do you have evidence that it was an inconsistency?  In base he cannot lift 10 tonne weights strapped to each of his limbs.  All this really shows is that Dragonball characters are not overly physically powerful and that their real power comes from their ki manipulation (which is something that is painfully obvious throughout most of the series).
> 
> See, for a comic fan this makes sense.  Just because you have really high level energy manipulation doesn't mean that your physical strength also is equally as powerful.
> 
> This of course also implies that Dragonball characters physical resistances are considerably lower than their energy defenses which again makes sense as physical resistance and energy resistance don't always come from the same powerset.



That 10 ton feat was done in the Buu saga, a Saga not planned out at all by Toriyama, plus Goku was in a whole other dimension. Goku's physical strength should actually be pretty dam high, as a kid his Power Level was 10 ( stated by Toriyama), Goku was several times stronger than your average man, at that point he was able to pick up a throw a car, by the Ginyu Saga Goku's Power Level is up to 180,000 so I am pretty sure he is pretty dam strong physically. The 10 ton feat also looses weight because he wasn't actually lifting it, he had it strapped to his limbs. I can bench press 100 lbs pretty dam easy but strap 25 lbs to each of my limbs and I will not be able to move around so well.


> Oh by the way, Goku cannot IT blitz as IT takes a bit of time to actually do.  Notice how only in the non-canon movies does he ever IT blitz?  Not once in the manga does he ever do that.



So then by that logic, since we never seen Goku take a s.hit in the manga I guess he can't do that either


----------



## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> I've played all the Kingdom Hearts, but my memory might fail me since I haven't played it in a while, but has Sora cut anyone in half that wasn't a heartless or a nobody? Or maybe since slicing people in half is to graphic for Disney, has Sora at least left marks on someones clothes with the keyblade? But even so, even if it did act like a sword, we all seen how a sword works on Goku, he fought Trunks off who had superior strength over Sora attack Goku and Goku used his finger to block it blow for blow effortlessly. Also as a kid Goku was already bullet proof, so I doubt the keyblade, if it acts as a blunt object or a sharp one, I fail to see how it is a threat for Goku.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sora defeated gods with his keyblade, like hercules. Hercule can lift the sky and shit. Im sure goku isnt tanking the keyblade master!@


----------



## Enclave (Jan 19, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> I've played all the Kingdom Hearts, but my memory might fail me since I haven't played it in a while, but has Sora cut anyone in half that wasn't a heartless or a nobody? Or maybe since slicing people in half is to graphic for Disney, has Sora at least left marks on someones clothes with the keyblade? But even so, even if it did act like a sword, we all seen how a sword works on Goku, he fought Trunks off who had superior strength over Sora attack Goku and Goku used his finger to block it blow for blow effortlessly. Also as a kid Goku was already bullet proof, so I doubt the keyblade, if it acts as a blunt object or a sharp one, I fail to see how it is a threat for Goku.



He has sliced buildings VERY cleanly into pieces with his Keyblade.  Those weren't Heartless or Nobodys and shows that yes it most certainly is a cutting implement.



> That 10 ton feat was done in the Buu saga, a Saga not planned out at all by Toriyama, plus Goku was in a whole other dimension. Goku's physical strength should actually be pretty dam high, as a kid his Power Level was 10 ( stated by Toriyama), Goku was several times stronger than your average man, at that point he was able to pick up a throw a car, by the Ginyu Saga Goku's Power Level is up to 180,000 so I am pretty sure he is pretty dam strong physically. The 10 ton feat also looses weight because he wasn't actually lifting it, he had it strapped to his limbs. I can bench press 100 lbs pretty dam easy but strap 25 lbs to each of my limbs and I will not be able to move around so well.



I'm not saying that the 10 tonne feat isn't impressive.  I'm just saying that it isn't overly impressive.  He hasn't shown any physical strength feat to put him up to class 100, Sora on the other hand has.



> So then by that logic, since we never seen Goku take a s.hit in the manga I guess he can't do that either



You seem to have an inherent misunderstanding of how IT works.  First he needs to search for a ki signature, then he has to lock onto it, then he teleports.  There is nothing to suggest he could IT blitz and from what we know of the ability it seems unlikely that he could.  Besides, if he could don't you think he would have?  With it he could be much more effective of a fighter.


----------



## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

Wait when did Sora show class 100 strength?


----------



## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Wait when did Sora show class 100 strength?



lol thats exactly what i was gonna ask. lets see what enclave can pull out of his ass for this one.


----------



## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

Well I wasnt attacking Enclave there, because honestly in this fight, strength is a non-issue.


----------



## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

im not attacking him either. i just really wanna know how sora is class 100. i played the game awhile ago, REFRESH ME


----------



## Superrazien (Jan 19, 2008)

Enclave said:


> He has sliced buildings VERY cleanly into pieces with his Keyblade.  Those weren't Heartless or Nobodys and shows that yes it most certainly is a cutting implement.



Yeah thats true, but like I said it doesn't make a difference, its not going to harm Goku.




> I'm not saying that the 10 tonne feat isn't impressive.  I'm just saying that it isn't overly impressive.  He hasn't shown any physical strength feat to put him up to class 100, Sora on the other hand has.



Well first off what requirement is a class 100? Second when has Sora shown feats of strength that high. Third Vegeta can train in 450X earths Gravity, Goku is obviously stronger than him so he is capable of that to, lets assume Goku weighs like 160 Lbs, if he is in 450X earths gravity that means his entire body would weigh 72,000 pounds which is about 36 tons. Thats 36 tons on his entire body he can train with and master and if I remember right when Vegeta was training in that gravity I don't think he was Super Saiyan, so that alone is impressive. If you can train with 36 tons on your entire body for hours, just imagine how much the dude can bench press.

Also it makes sense that Goku had a little trouble when they upped it to 40 Tons, because that would be equal to 500 X earths gravity. Which would mean he was about 80,000 Lbs ( assuming he weighs 160)



> You seem to have an inherent misunderstanding of how IT works.  First he needs to search for a ki signature, then he has to lock onto it, then he teleports.  There is nothing to suggest he could IT blitz and from what we know of the ability it seems unlikely that he could.  Besides, if he could don't you think he would have?  With it he could be much more effective of a fighter.



I know he needs a Ki signature, and since its pretty easy for Goku and the rest of the Z fighters to sense things, it really shouldn't take much time to sense the Ki of the person right in front of you. If Goku did use his IT like that in the manga, it would of made it uninteresting because he would never be touched, it was most likely done for story purposes, or Toriyama forgot he gave it to Goku, which he does forgot a lot of things.


----------



## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> Yeah thats true, but like I said it doesn't make a difference, its not going to harm Goku.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Ax_ (Jan 19, 2008)

If that is from Cross Epoch, I freaking love it...

Anyway, why would Sora even need Class 100?
It doesn't really make much sense, since he could just stop time and start attacking, right?


----------



## The Sentry (Jan 19, 2008)

Wow i cant belive some people think Sora has a chance against Goku. 1 generic ki beam at 1/100th of its power kills Sora


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## Banhammer (Jan 19, 2008)

Sora in final form stops time rapestomps him.
And sora has also manipulated gravity. Just so y'all know.


----------



## The Sentry (Jan 19, 2008)

^^Goku can Fly, he is much faster than bullet timer Sora and Sora's attacks will have no effect. Sora is soooooooooooooooooo overrated. Goku has trained in 100 times earths gravity. jus so y'all kow


----------



## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

What exactly is Goku going to do against a timestop Ace?
Anyway, no one should listen to a person who thinks Superman is weaker than Goku


----------



## The Sentry (Jan 19, 2008)

And no one should listen to people who think Sora can beat Goku. i bet if it was Sora vs Supes you guys would say a timestop has no chance against supes


----------



## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> And no one should listen to people who think Sora can beat Goku. i bet if it was Sora vs Supes you guys would say a timestop has no chance against supes



Timestop is pretty dirty, dude.


----------



## Enclave (Jan 19, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Wait when did Sora show class 100 strength?



Hitting the buildings like they were baseballs at Armoured Xemnas' shield.  That's a class 100 strength feat.



Superrazien said:


> Yeah thats true, but like I said it doesn't make a difference, its not going to harm Goku.



You wanted evidence that it cut non-heartless/nobodys.  I gave it.



> Well first off what requirement is a class 100? Second when has Sora shown feats of strength that high. Third Vegeta can train in 450X earths Gravity, Goku is obviously stronger than him so he is capable of that to, lets assume Goku weighs like 160 Lbs, if he is in 450X earths gravity that means his entire body would weigh 72,000 pounds which is about 36 tons. Thats 36 tons on his entire body he can train with and master and if I remember right when Vegeta was training in that gravity I don't think he was Super Saiyan, so that alone is impressive. If you can train with 36 tons on your entire body for hours, just imagine how much the dude can bench press.



If somebody is class 100 and they hit somebody who can take damage from people who are less than class 100 then guess what's going to happen.

Also, you give Akira too much credit in the math department.  Best to go with blatant feats.  Besides, that strength feat still doesn't match Sora's building baseball.



> I know he needs a Ki signature, and since its pretty easy for Goku and the rest of the Z fighters to sense things, it really shouldn't take much time to sense the Ki of the person right in front of you. If Goku did use his IT like that in the manga, it would of made it uninteresting because he would never be touched, it was most likely done for story purposes, or Toriyama forgot he gave it to Goku, which he does forgot a lot of things.



He's never shown the capability to use IT in the manner of an IT blitz so we cannot assume that he can do it.  I thought that was a pretty standard rule here in the OBD.



Fire Fist Ace said:


> ^^Goku can Fly, he is much faster than bullet timer Sora and Sora's attacks will have no effect. Sora is soooooooooooooooooo overrated. Goku has trained in 100 times earths gravity. jus so y'all kow



You say bullet timer I say FTL.  I have evidence to support me, people who say he's a bullet timer don't particularly have any evidence at all to support him only being a bullet timer.

Also, what does it matter that he has trained in 100x earths gravity?  Again, that doesn't match Sora's best strength feat of smacking around skyscrapers.

Face it, by the end of KH2 Nomura made Sora and Riku amazingly broken characters.

edit:

Oh yea, also you say Goku can fly?  Well good, so can Sora.


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## Superrazien (Jan 19, 2008)

Well doesn't time slow down the faster you get, and supposedly if you reach light speed time does stop. So if your one of those who Believe DBZ can move at or close to light speeds, time stop should do much if its done to Goku while he is moving already.

But anyways thats not important, I just don't see time stop having much of an effect mainly because Sora can't really harm him, time is not stopped for very long, and Sora is very limited on his magic.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

When does Goku ever move at light speed (I'm not counting IT here)? Exactly. He doesn't. 
What exactly do you think will happen if Sora stops time and goes for the headshot? It just won't work?


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 19, 2008)

This is almost as bad as Goku vs Yusuke.  Almost.  

I'll let the scans speak for themselves.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

That feat really isn't that impressive. Show him shaking the world (or did he not do that in the manga?)


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 19, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> That feat really isn't that impressive. Show him shaking the world (or did he not do that in the manga?)



Compared to what, exactly?  It's impressive because of the fact that blows like that are treated as nothing.

Shaking the world?  What are you talking about, exactly?


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 19, 2008)

When he's going SS3 (I'm not saying he would need to go ss3 to beat Sora, but it's a more impressive power feat, which is what I thought you were trying to show).


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## HollowDemon (Jan 19, 2008)

Crimson Dragoon said:


> This is almost as bad as Goku vs Yusuke.  Almost.
> 
> I'll let the scans speak for themselves.



OMFG! dude you ended the thread! No way sora who has survived passing thru a  planets atmoppshere, has beaten gods, and has survived his own world getting destroyed! can handle such a kick like that!


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## Estrecca (Jan 19, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> When he's going SS3 (I'm not saying he would need to go ss3 to beat Sora, but it's a more impressive power feat, which is what I thought you were trying to show).



I get the vibe that CD is kinda critical of the rather persistent exaggeration of Sora's capabilities that can be found here. 

In this particular instance, I think that he wanted to show that anyone arguing that Goku has strength below class 100, despite things like this exchange of blows with Freeza, are either cherry-picking evidence or smoking something funny.


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## Banhammer (Jan 19, 2008)

Sora can also fly, hurl sky scrapers, tanking planetary re-entry  (three times, if you count deep jungle and traverse town) completly unscathed, or blows much much stronger than that (mecha mansex battle) react to lasers speed(sniper reaction comand for once), time stop, reflect ANY attack, including one stronger than that shown, and has magic sword.
Has beaten up reality warpers (jafar and genie, granted genie was far from giving his all), and hell guardians, something that if I remember correctly, not even goku dares to go against.
He can also sumon at any time *ANY TIME* a cosmic reality warper that picks up cities the same way someone picks water from a puddle.
All this without final form.
Final form by the way, that he can also activate at any time, like it was nothing, with no fifty minutes scream, and with a shockwave that severly damages any enemies around.
Yeah, GG goku. Kingdom hearts have earned the right maybe not to claim to be faster than light, but they are certainly able to keep up with any character in the OBD. That's all they need speed wise.
Even fighting superman they might win, since KHspeed+timestop+ magic blade is a dead on combo.


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## Flamefang (Jan 19, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Sora can also fly, hurl sky scrapers, tanking planetary re-entry  (three times, if you count deep jungle and traverse town) completly unscathed, or blows much much stronger than that (mecha mansex battle) react to lasers speed(sniper reaction comand for once), time stop, reflect ANY attack, including one stronger than that shown, and has magic sword.
> Has beaten up reality warpers (jafar and genie, granted genie was far from giving his all), and hell guardians, something that if I remember correctly, not even goku dares to go against.
> He can also sumon at any time *ANY TIME* a cosmic reality warper that picks up cities the same way someone picks water from a puddle.
> All this without final form.
> ...



Id just like to point out, that most versions of superman can travel at speeds far acceding the speed of light. This means, he doesn't even need timestop because sora would be standing still for most of the battle (which would last less than 0.00000000000001 of second), followed by his head shattering


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## mystictrunks (Jan 19, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> OMFG! dude you ended the thread! No way sora who has survived passing thru a  planets atmoppshere, has beaten gods, and has survived his own world getting destroyed! can handle such a kick like that!



He's beaten Greek Gods the same ones who can be damaged by mortals.

He survived his world getting destroyed by going to another world.


If we are using KH2 Sora then timestop is not an issue as you don't have that ability in KH2.


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## Flamefang (Jan 19, 2008)

If you take away time stop and reflega this would be a very good fight. By the way, what is Dragon Balls' top speed?


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## mystictrunks (Jan 19, 2008)

Mach 10+ I believe.


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## Flamefang (Jan 19, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> Mach 10+ I believe.



Wow, i thought it would be higher but oh well


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## Logical-Master (Jan 19, 2008)

*Hmm*

It amazes me how people have the idea that Goku can beat anyone. Hell, I came across threads where people have vehemently argued that Goku would beat the living tribunal. Nevertheless, in  afight, Sora is more than a match for Goku.


Strength: Sora can fight on par with greek gods and slice through magically forged skyscrapers as if they are butter. Goku? At his strongest (and as people have commented), 100-200 ton level. Certainly a level Hercules or Hades would find laughable.

Speed: Sora can deflect millions a lasers from all sides and. can teleport at will. Goku has teleportation down, but at merely 99% of the speed of light, no match against Sora's speed. Not to mention that keeping up with Sephiroth is a feat within its own league.

Durability: Besides being able to shrug off the nastiest blows from the likes of Hades and the Titans, we have to keep in mind that Sora can shrug off meteor assaults from Sephiroth himself. With that power alone, Sephiroth has the rank of a planet buster. Sora being able to shrug that off is very impressive.

Fighting Skill: Sora can create new techniques on the spot whereas Goku always need extensive training from someone else.

Power Capacity: As we've seen so far, the keyblade practically has no limits. It can slice through reality itself if need be and has shown to make Sora a worthy foe for anyone who doesn't possess a keyblade as well. 

Taking all the facts into account, Sora would mop the floor with Goku. Now if Goku had a keyblade as well as some experience, things would be different.

Not to mention that Sora can summon or transform himself to become more powerful. Goku blowing up the planet wouldn't do him any good either as Goku would need to teleport. Seeing as how Sora can teleport and/or simply "unlock the door" to another reality, Goku would be wasting his time.


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## Logical-Master (Jan 19, 2008)

Fire Fist Ace said:


> And no one should listen to people who think Sora can beat Goku. i bet if it was Sora vs Supes you guys would say a timestop has no chance against supes


Nah, Sora beats Supes too as Supes is vulernable to magic. And given the keyblade's ability to give Sora the techniques he needs at the right time, you'd probably see a move called kryptonite slash under the reaction command.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 19, 2008)

You're over rating both Sephiroth and Disney Greek Gods.


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## Logical-Master (Jan 19, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> You're over rating both Sephiroth and Disney Greek Gods.


How so? And by Disney Greek gods, do you mean to imply they are inferior to the original Greek gods? If so, I'd have to beg to differ as evidence from the tv show and the film suggest otherwise.


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## Flamefang (Jan 19, 2008)

Logical-Master said:


> It amazes me how people have the idea that Goku can beat anyone. Hell, I came across threads where people have vehemently argued that Goku would beat the living tribunal. Nevertheless, in  afight, Sora is more than a match for Goku.
> 
> 
> Strength: Sora can fight on par with greek gods and slice through magically forged skyscrapers as if they are butter. Goku? At his strongest (and as people have commented), 100-200 ton level. Certainly a level Hercules or Hades would find laughable.
> ...



 
Yes, sora can probably win with time stop, but this sora wank is just ridiculous 
Strength: Sora's most impressive feat is the skyscraper one, goku could easily trump that. You have to remember that sora uses a blade thus his strength isn't anywhere near someone who relies on martial arts/energy attacks.
Speed: Sora is no where near FTL, as those are not real lasers. He is faster than goku, but this ain't no blitz. 
Durability: Sephiroth hasn't busted a planet, and neither have the Disney titans/gods. While goku's opponents have, and can do so quite easily (freeza at 50% and heavily damaged sloppily busted a planet. The means Cell and Buu are casual planet busters, and goku would (for the most part) not get stomped by them.
Fighting Techniques: I can create new techniques on the spot too, does this mean i can beat Bruce Lee?
Power Capacity: No limits fallacy

Sora could win against goku with timestop, but without it goku would most likely win. Without timestop and reflega goku would win


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## mystictrunks (Jan 19, 2008)

Logical-Master said:


> How so? And by Disney Greek gods, do you mean to imply they are inferior to the original Greek gods? If so, I'd have to beg to differ as evidence from the tv show and the film suggest otherwise.



By Disney Greek Gods I mean they are the same as the normal Greek Gods with a G rating attached. You have the God of War Ares being injured in myths by humans and forced to run away.

Beating a Greek God isn't as impressive as you make it out to be especially when they're restricted by the FCC.


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## Logical-Master (Jan 19, 2008)

Re Strength: I'd think a magically forged skyscraper would be far more durable than a normal skyscraper.

Re Speed: I'm curious as to what makes you say those lasers had different properties than the ones in the real world. Would you mind telling me?

Re Durability: No, he hasn't. Neither has Goku However, like Goku, it's suggested that he can. I didn't associate the Disney Greek gods with planet destruction, but I did imply their powers to be ideally omnipotent (not literally of course, but within the idea they can forge matter). As for Goku's opponent's, it's debatable as to how long they've had the ability to destroy a planet to be considered a qualified planet buster. I'd advocate that previous to the later half of the cell saga, planet destruction was no different than planet destruction (via ships) in Star Trek in that a chain reaction is set off. My primary source of evidence is frieza having to use a tremendous amount of energy in attempt to destroy Namek while battling Goku. I think it's safe to suggest that disruption of a planet's core is the means of destruction up until Vegeta's first battle with Cell. This would help in explaining why the fighters are able to draw out so many of their fights without having to worry about the planet's stability.

Re Fighting Techniques: False analogy. Motive? Unsure. Perhaps I wasn't clear. Effective fighting techniques 100% suitable for specific situations is a better means of phrasing Sora's abilities, yes?

Re Power Capacity: Not really. I said "practically has no limits." This was a hyperbole.


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## Flamefang (Jan 20, 2008)

Logical-Master said:


> Re Strength: I'd think a magically forged skyscraper would be far more durable than a normal skyscraper.
> 
> *At beast your assumption would be a hyperbole. For all we know, it could be just as dense, since we have no real proof*
> 
> ...



10 char ftw


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## Logical-Master (Jan 20, 2008)

mystictrunks said:


> By Disney Greek Gods I mean they are the same as the normal Greek Gods with a G rating attached. You have the God of War Ares being injured in myths by humans and forced to run away.
> 
> Beating a Greek God isn't as impressive as you make it out to be especially when they're restricted by the FCC.


Based on what has been shown in the Hercules tv series, the Disney Greek gods are certainly superior as _most_ of them appear to have reality bending powers of Mr. Myxlplyx's level (being able to change their size and shape, conjuring up any objects at will, teleportation, etc). Of course, one of the main reasons this Classic greek god = disney greek god argument hardly has any support is due to the background stories of both being vastly different.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 20, 2008)

Flamefang, I dont think anyone is denying that Goku is essentially more powerful than Sora in most fields.
It's the fields that he's not stronger in that are interesting:
Magic and time control, mainly. Goku has had minimal contact with the former and has had no contact with the later (albeit that Sora's time manipulation abilities are not that strong, but it gives the possible opening).


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## mystictrunks (Jan 20, 2008)

Logical-Master said:


> Based on what has been shown in the Hercules tv series, the Disney Greek gods are certainly superior as _most_ of them appear to have reality bending powers of Mr. Myxlplyx's level (being able to change their size and shape, conjuring up any objects at will, teleportation, etc). Of course, one of the main reasons this Classic greek god = disney greek god argument hardly has any support is due to the background stories of both being vastly different.



Mr.Myx level? The ability to alter your size and shape along with hammerspace do not put you on the level of someone who can effect a Universe with ease.

As far as backround stories go how do they differ? I don't recall any of them(aside from Hercules' of course) being explore din either the movie or the T.V. series.


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## Flamefang (Jan 20, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Flamefang, I dont think anyone is denying that Goku is essentially more powerful than Goku in most fields.
> It's the fields that he's not stronger in that are interesting:
> Magic and time control, mainly. Goku has had minimal contact with the former and has had no contact with the later (albeit that Sora's time manipulation abilities are not that strong, but it gives the possible opening).



I was just replying to the person who thought that sora had more power and endurance than goku


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## Ax_ (Jan 20, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Flamefang, I dont think anyone is denying that Goku is essentially more powerful than Goku in most fields.
> It's the fields that he's not stronger in that are interesting:
> Magic and time control, mainly. Goku has had minimal contact with the former and has had no contact with the later (albeit that Sora's time manipulation abilities are not that strong, but it gives the possible opening).



...what?
Goku is more powerful than Goku?


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 20, 2008)

Edited for you Ax


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## Ax_ (Jan 20, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Edited for you Ax



Ah, ok, that makes more sense 

Thanks.
Yeah, I can agree with your point here.

Anyway, even if Sora doesn't win, could it be possible that we all mostly agree that he has more strategic abilities at his disposal?


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## HollowDemon (Jan 20, 2008)

Sora wins without time stop and reflecta. Sora deflected millions of lasers, so sora can easily deflect any blast that goku throws at him. Sending a kamaeha right back to gokus face. If goku wants to go hand to hand, sora can go final form or spam thundagas. I think there durablity is around the same, goku wins in strentgh, sora wins everything else.


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## Ax_ (Jan 20, 2008)

Actually, hasn't Sora deflected attack from Terra right back at him?


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## HollowDemon (Jan 20, 2008)

Ax_ said:


> Actually, hasn't Sora deflected attack from Terra right back at him?



Sora can defelect anything back at anybody. The keyblade is so powerful it defelcts attacks form gods, reality warpers, guys as strong as supes(herc). Kamehea isnt touching sora


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## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2008)

Sora most powerfull strength limit is to beat Disney Hercules, whom as a teenager held the whole planet in his shoulders.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 20, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> Sora wins without time stop and reflecta. Sora deflected millions of lasers, so sora can easily deflect any blast that goku throws at him. Sending a kamaeha right back to gokus face. If goku wants to go hand to hand, sora can go final form or spam thundagas. I think there durablity is around the same, goku wins in strentgh, sora wins everything else.



Sadly a solar flare -> Warp Kamehameha will kill Sora.


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## Estrecca (Jan 20, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Sora most powerfull strength limit is to beat Disney Hercules, whom as a teenager held the whole planet in his shoulders.



You didn't get the memo about the Hercules movie and cartoon being a different continuity, did you? The best strength feat shown by KH Hercules is launching Titan Rock (who is a tad smaller than his movie counterpart, I'd like to point) helluva far. 

Not that this is a small feat (way beyond class 100, for sure), but the fact that he never tries something like this against Sora (that and the fact that he spends about half his duels in both KHI and KHII doing silly posing) would suggest that Herc might not have been going all out against his friend.


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## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2008)

He still bitchslaps a hell god in his own domain.

And that titan (gaia I think) also has enough of strength to destroy villages by walking and the strength to hold the planet


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## Crimson Dragoon (Jan 20, 2008)

Estrecca said:


> You didn't get the memo about the Hercules movie and cartoon being a different continuity, did you? The best strength feat shown by KH Hercules is launching Titan Rock (who is a tad smaller than his movie counterpart, I'd like to point) helluva far.
> 
> Not that this is a small feat (way beyond class 100, for sure), but the fact that he never tries something like this against Sora (that and the fact that he spends about half his duels in both KHI and KHII doing silly posing) would suggest that Herc might not have been going all out against his friend.



To be fair, Sora is pretty fast and wouldn't be grabbed that easily.


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## Estrecca (Jan 20, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> He still bitchslaps a hell god in his own domain.



If by "bitchslap" you mean "take down after a long battle with several allies in his side, while using a deus ex machina of Olympian origin to avoid the weakening effects of the Underworld" then sure. And, amusingly enough, Hades still gets away.



> And that titan (gaia I think) also has enough of strength to destroy villages by walking and the strength to hold the planet



Err... When in the games does the Titan do this exactly? Because I thought that the point about the Hercules cartoon being an _entirely different universe _had already been cleared.

And btw, I suppose that you mean Atlas, the titan sentenced by Zeus to hold the sky for eternity.


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## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2008)

The Movie Hercules punches his face inwards with one blow.
In the move, Gaia crushes vilages by "accidently" stepping on them.
And Gaia's strength does not stray far from Atla's


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## Estrecca (Jan 20, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> The Movie Hercules punches his face inwards with one blow.
> In the move, Gaia crushes vilages by "accidently" stepping on them.
> And Gaia's strength does not stray far from Atla's



Just for clarification, in Greek mythology, Gaia is one of the pre-Olympic Goddesses and the twelve titans are her youngest kids. I see no indication whatsoever of Titan Rock being a female entity and remember nothing about them having names beyond Titan Rock, Titan Ice and such. 

Second, I fail to see how the feats of the much larger movie version have any connection with the strength of KH Hercules. There is simply not enough info for a valid comparison.


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## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2008)

It's Disney
Countinuity or consistensy isn't their top worries, character design and ratings are.
They are still the exact same character, and should therefore have the same powers
Though you're right
I don't know why I called that rock titan Gaia, I was wrong about that


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## mystictrunks (Jan 20, 2008)

Crushing a village isn't that impressive when you're the size of a skyscraper.


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## Superrazien (Jan 20, 2008)

Ok first off some people here seem to think Sora can spam all his magic, which he can't he is very imited on his Magic, and considering one Punch from Goku Sora will probably need to cure himself, then there goes his magic supply.

Anyways I think everyone agrees Sora is not physically stronger than Goku, Goku who can train in 500 X earths gravity, and punch beyond Super Sonic speeds would take off Soras head.

Speed, I don't get how you guys think Sora is faster. First off in Dragonball Goku was already far faster than the human eye being able to hit people 5 times in a second and create after images of his self, by the end of Z he is just so much dam stronger than his DB self, also he with his already impressive speed trained can train in 500X earths gravity, and still has 2 more levels of power ups to go which increase everything, power, speed, strength, ect.. Sora is not faster than Goku, at best they are equal when Gokus Super Saiyan.

Durability- DBZ is all about durability so unless anyone can post a durability feat from Sora that trumps DBZ durability feats, I fail to see how Sora wins in that department. 

Also Sora will run out of magic long, much long, before Goku runs out of Ki.


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## Banhammer (Jan 20, 2008)

Cure spending all of his magic is game mechanics
It does not spend all of his magic on the first game, and he dosen't spend any at all in the COM, and in the second one, he recovers in twenty seconds, wich means that he'll never run out of magic, while goku runs out of ki.
Plus, whilee Goku mooves himself while under a force 5oo times heavier than him, sora mooves thing with forces five thousand times stronger than his weight as effortlessly as if he was throwing around a tennis ball. Or tanking Hercules, he who shoots five country busting titans to outerspace.
But let's not get into that
You would ignore it anyway
Sora reacts faster than Goku
Sora timestops
It does not drain him at all
Omnislashing magic sword, do your thing.
Should I remind you this baby swiftly exchanges blows with lightsabers?


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## Azure Flame Fright (Jan 20, 2008)

HollowDemon said:


> guys as strong as supes(herc)



OMG so much Disney fan-wank


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## Superrazien (Jan 20, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Cure spending all of his magic is game mechanics
> It does not spend all of his magic on the first game, and he dosen't spend any at all in the COM, and in the second one, he recovers in twenty seconds, wich means that he'll never run out of magic, while goku runs out of ki.
> Plus, whilee Goku mooves himself while under a force 5oo times heavier than him, sora mooves thing with forces five thousand times stronger than his weight as effortlessly as if he was throwing around a tennis ball. Or tanking Hercules, he who shoots five country busting titans to outerspace.
> But let's not get into that
> ...




Time stop is also in game only, so what the hell does that have to do with anything. KH2 Sora is the most current up to date Sora, and he spends all his magic on Healing, if you are using them in there most current forms Sora has this set back. Sora moves forces 5,000 times stronger than him? Proof? Also for the recorded Goku doesn't move anything in 500 G's besides his own body,  I would like to see some proof that Sora has the durabitly to with stand at least 100X earths gravity. Hercules is overrated, Goku could of done the same thing, hell he could of probably just blew the Titans up with a Planet Buster size attack.

Sora reacts faster than Goku? For the recorded the Z characters are able to dodge blasts more powerful and faster than Roshis Kamehameha that hit the moon in 1 second. Also there is no proof that Sora went up against a lightsaber, did you see it cut through anything effortlessly? It was more like an energy blade like Kuwabaras sword.

Also Sora takes a couple of seconds to time stop someone. Goku can I.T and punch him in the face, I.T is instant lets not forget, not even light is instant.  Also if this is blood lust, then the common DBZ feat can just come into play, Goku blows up the planet, and I.T to other world or something. Sora's only chance at winning if he is blood lust and Goku is non SS and in character.

Edit: if we are using Goku from the manga, then only what Sora has done in the Cutscenes should count for this fight, as playing the game operates on a different level, if Sora can use both game and cutscene feats then we should be able to video game Goku also.


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## mystictrunks (Jan 20, 2008)

Country Busting Titans? Greece was fine in the movie.


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## atom (Jan 20, 2008)

Sora is so stupidly overhyped its just making me not want to play the Kingdom Hearts games.


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 21, 2008)

This is just fanwanking on both sides, which is annoying for me since I like KH and Dbz so much. 
Anyway, Goku can win with an IT blitz (yea i know he doesn't do it but he could), and Sora could timestop blah blah just let this die no consensus is developing


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## Ax_ (Jan 21, 2008)

Superrazien said:


> Edit: if we are using Goku from the manga, then only what Sora has done in the Cutscenes should count for this fight, as playing the game operates on a different level, if Sora can use both game and cutscene feats then we should be able to video game Goku also.



Actually, those cutscenes and reaction command ARE the same, if I am getting what you are saying...


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## soupnazi235 (Jan 21, 2008)

Waaaait..wouldn't that give Sora the massive advantage, Super? When has video game Goku ever done anything impressive? 
Say anime Goku if you want to make it "fair"


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## Inuhanyou (Jan 21, 2008)

At first it seems like a rapestomp in goku's favor, but then again...


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## Ax_ (Jan 21, 2008)

soupnazi235 said:


> Waaaait..wouldn't that give Sora the massive advantage, Super? When has video game Goku ever done anything impressive?
> Say anime Goku if you want to make it "fair"



I think it has already been said, not that I get why anyone would want that, since it takes forever for that guy to charge up...


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## dreams lie (May 19, 2008)

Goku wins.


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## Fang (May 19, 2008)

Is thread serious?

How exactly is Sora going to hurt Goku?


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## Kuya (May 20, 2008)

Mirai Gohan said:


> Is thread serious?
> 
> How exactly is Sora going to hurt Goku?



Sora couldn't use Reflega fast enough to repel Goku's attacks.

But I think Sora's only chance is summoning Genie. But the thing is, Sora doesn't wish when he summons Genie, so i'm not sure how that would work out. But Genie > Goku.


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## Banhammer (May 20, 2008)

Sora's speed in the OBD is assumed to be enough for anyone. His reflexes are more than enough to hit Goku.
I would enjoy to wath him reflect his own wave, but he's gonna spend Lord knows how long to charge, sora timestops, and proceedes to use trinity lock, banishing Goku from this world


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## Zetta (May 20, 2008)

Indeed.

Sora uses Za Warudo and while Goku is frozen,Sora uses Genie who proceeds to blink Goku out of existance...

Wait,did we just make another hax Sora combo?


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## mystictrunks (May 20, 2008)

Banhammer said:


> Sora's speed in the OBD is assumed to be enough for anyone.



Me thinks that is a fallacy.


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## Bender (May 20, 2008)

Tsunayoshi said:


> Goku wins.
> 
> 
> 
> And yes, this can be done... See: The preview for Birth by Sleep at the end of KHII:FM+. Reflect was broken by a mass of keyblades in it; there's no way it's sending Goku's attacks back at him.



That was protec not reflect

Also Sora wins when he reflects Goku's Kamemehameha right back at him


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## Agmaster (May 20, 2008)

Goku wouldn't use blasts on Sora.  That'd be like using ...ki vs a hand to hand opponents.  You know...not what Goku does.  Goku moves about 5 feet from Sora and gets in a stance.


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## Zetta (May 20, 2008)

Agmaster said:


> Goku wouldn't use blasts on Sora.  That'd be like using ...ki vs a hand to hand opponents.  You know...not what Goku does.  Goku moves about 5 feet from Sora and gets in a stance.



And gets blinked out of existance by Genie. Also bloodlust is on so Goku brings out his strongest Kamehameha right of the bat,shoots,gets reflected and dies.


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## Protect_The_Butter (May 20, 2008)

I don't ever remember Genie blinking someone out of existance ever. Not in KH or the original movies. From what I remember he's not allowed to kill.


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## Kenny Florian (May 20, 2008)

The movie Genie could do anything but Kill or make a person fall in love. That said KH Genie was much weaker and could barely do anything from what I remember.



Banhammer said:


> Sora's speed in the OBD is assumed to be enough for anyone.


 Why?




> sora timestops, and proceedes to use trinity lock, banishing Goku from this world



Trinity Limit can do that? When?


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## Zetta (May 20, 2008)

Protect_The_Butter said:


> I don't ever remember Genie blinking someone out of existance ever. Not in KH or the original movies. From what I remember he's not allowed to kill.


It doesn't kill,they just don't exist anymore. Besides,Jafar showed the rules could be bent.


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## Superrazien (May 20, 2008)

Goku would punch his head off. Hell I bet Goku could steal his Keyblade and use it against Sora. I don't see why Goku being Pure of heart couldn't use it.


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## mystictrunks (May 20, 2008)

Zetta said:


> And gets blinked out of existance by Genie. Also bloodlust is on so Goku brings out his strongest Kamehameha right of the bat,shoots,gets reflected and dies.



Actually bloodlusted Goku would core the planet then port away or port behind Sora and put his fist/ki blast through Sora's heart/head.


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## Masaki (May 20, 2008)

Sora can take Kid Goku cause he ended up a building buster.  But beyond that, no way.


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## Keollyn (May 20, 2008)

This outlived its usefulness. Maulrape coupled with being an old thread is the reason (if someone really needed one)


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