# Tsunade vs. The Masters



## Rocky (Jan 27, 2016)

*Location:* Grass Field
*Distance:* 5m
*Mindset:* IC
*Knowledge:* Manga

Scenario I: Tsunade vs. Gai. Taijutsu only. Weapons allowed. Gai is restricted to the first gate.  

Scenario II: Tsunade vs. Kakashi. Taijutsu only. Weapons allowed. Kakashi (War Arc) is allowed his Sharingan.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

Does Tsunade have her super strength?


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## Rocky (Jan 27, 2016)

Um...yes? She has all of her usual physical stats lol.


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## Bringer (Jan 27, 2016)

I think what SoW what's to know is if she can enhance her super strength with chakra enhanced strength. Also can she use her yin seal chakra?


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## Rocky (Jan 27, 2016)

In order to keep this from turning into a Byakugō Seal shitstorm, the thing is restricted. It's fūinjutsu anyway, which isn't taijutsu. She is allowed her chakra enhanced strength as that's nothing more than a fundamental, albeit a mastered one.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

If it's just nunchucks and kunai she would win regardless.  I'm reminded of the scene where Orochimaru defeated Kakashi's 4.0 Genjutsu stat and 3 tomoe sharingan with a basic genjutsu.  I don't believe that their War Arc incarnations would suffer such a humiliating defeat, as the distance between them and the Sannin has shrunk, but the opposite disparity doesn't exist where they can take their senior in her forte without the tools they use to operate on the higher levels.  

Guy will give more trouble than Kakashi, and survive in close longer, while Kakashi will make use of a more in and out fashion of combat, utilizing the sharingan's ability to predict counters.  But ultimately it will come to a more honest exchange and they will lose.  Arguably, it would be even easier if her chakra enhanced strength were restricted, as they'd be more willing to engage her without the threat of total annihilation.  Her regular strength, however, is sufficiently high enough that a normal attack would damage either enough that their performance would drop, or leave an opening for a finisher.


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## Saru (Jan 27, 2016)

She can beat Gai since her strength dominates Gai's in Base (or _Kaimon_), and Gai shouldn't have a hugely superior hand-to-hand taijutsu game. But Gai has nunchaku here, so that gives him a decisive advantage over Tsunade in terms of taijutsu. Even so, I think Tsunade's stamina is arguably superior, and her Herculean strength should overpower Gai in CQC. Gai should not be able to bludgeon her to death without her doing anything, and one hit should send Gai flying 100m away. Gai is good, but he's not good enough to evade Tsunade, who specializes in CQC, completely in an exchange. If Gai tries to dodge the whole time, I think he can be outlasted. Tsunade can take it with high difficulty due to her stated disadvantages and a lack of healing.

Kakashi has a significant speed advantage over Tsunade in addition to having quality taijutsu skills (perhaps not as good as Tsunade, but good enough to get the job done) and Sharingan precognition. If Kakashi can use Sakumo's tanto, he can probably outmaneuver Tsunade with the Sharingan's precognition and slice Tsunade up. I would consider it a high difficulty win for Kakashi.

I think weapons, Sharingan, and speed are all huge advatanges in CQC against a significantly slower opponent.


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## Alex Payne (Jan 27, 2016)

Tsunade wins both. They can't mortally wound her/stack enough damage without being hit once.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

I'd also like to point out that though outdated, Guy was faster than Shoten Kisame, someone noted on panel to have trouble with speed, but still fell prey to the latters' superior strength, even with nunchaku and a team of support.  It was only with the boost of 6 gates that he was able to muster enough speed that Kisame could recognize, though not successfully react to his kick.


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2016)

She wins both, but beats Kakashi a lot easier than Guy.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

I'll make a bigger post. But I view Tsunade's skill in Tai like this: Tsunade is a black belt fighter in Karate going up against Bruce Lee. Have you guys read the Data book for Gai? Kishimoto gushes over the guys Taijutsu on every page multiple times, same with speed, reflexes likened to lightning, durability likened to honed steel, if 8th gate wasn't enough feats vs. Madara. Even Obito questioned his base strength upon marvelling at it. Now you give him first Gate? Hell yeah I think he beats Tsunade backwards in time to her childhood. Bruce Lee/Jackie chan beats her in his dojo, his world, his play pen.  Also Tsunade has 3.5 for stamina, the seal is her way of keeping up her fighting ability, and duration.


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## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2016)

Isn't chakra enhanced strenght ninjutsu? Because if that's restricted, she might lose to Gai, especially in the 1st gate. Depending how he fights her.


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## Saru (Jan 27, 2016)

Jad said:


> I'll make a bigger post. But I view Tsunade's skill in Tai like this: Tsunade is a black belt fighter in Karate going up against Bruce Lee. Have you guys read the Data book for Gai? Kishimoto gushes over the guys Taijutsu on every page multiple times, same with speed, reflexes likened to lightning, durability likened to honed steel, if 8th gate wasn't enough feats vs. Madara. Even Obito questioned his base strength upon marvelling at it. Now you give him first Gate? Hell yeah I think he beats Tsunade backwards in time to her childhood. Bruce Lee/Jackie chan beats her in his dojo, his world, his play pen. * Also Tsunade has 3.5 for stamina, the seal is her way of keeping up her fighting ability, and duration.*




TBH, this is a fair point, and an issue I didn't address in my post. I think Tsunade's stamina can be called into question when you consider the Yin Seal. However, I see the Yin Seal as a secondary chakra reserve, so if we're fair to Tsunade and allow her to use one-hundred percent of her chakra as opposed to having stored it up in the Yin Seal over time (since this is a taijutsu-only fight), shouldn't that translate to greater stamina? The way I see it, if Tsunade is constantly building up chakra in the Yin Seal over time, even when fighting, then that means that her chakra reserves should be lower than normal when building the Yin Seal up--even when fighting. If that burden is removed, Tsunade should have more stamina to work with, as she isn't spending effort sending her chakra elsewhere.


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## Dr. White (Jan 27, 2016)

Tsunade is a Senju, she is not having stamina problems even though tbf the extent of Senju vitality was retconned to a higher level. Yin seal is used almost exclusively used to abuse creation rebirth which is an S - Rank jutsu which cost considerably more chakra than even Shosen. To think she'd tire from combat after part 1 only using chakra strength and Taijutsu is a stretch IMO.


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## Yoko (Jan 27, 2016)

She should lose both matches.  She's up against considerably quicker and more reflexive fighters.  Stamina is a nonfactor when both her opponents were able to fight through a multi-day war while spamming chakra-consuming techniques and trump cards, which aren't available to them here [which further increases their combat longevity].  Plus Guy has a 5 in stamina anyway compared to her 4, so her "Kage-chakra-tank" feats are probably attributable to her forehead chakra-storing diamond.

Guy has a 5 in speed and the first gate further augments that.  Manga knowledge should grant him intel on her super strength, meaning he won't try to do anything idiotic like say, trying to block a hit.  From there it will be nunchucks-to-the-skull galore; he'll beat her senseless until she dies.  

Kakashi is also faster than her, and 3T precognition ensures she won't lay a finger on him.  He has full knowledge on her strength so he too will know not to try blocking.  His kunai swipes will accumulate - first it will be a small scratch, then two, then perhaps a chopped off arm, until she slows down enough for him to behead her.

Both fights will basically be similar to P1 Tsunade vs. P1 Kabuto.  Sure, Tsunade has grown since then, but her opponents are not P1 Kabuto.  Any improvements she may have made while occupying the rustiness-inducing Hokage seat is completely offset by the sheer disparity in combat prowess between P1 Kabuto and EoS Masters.


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## Yoko (Jan 27, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> I'm reminded of the scene where Orochimaru defeated Kakashi's 4.0 Genjutsu stat and 3 tomoe sharingan with a basic genjutsu.



Kakashi did not have his 3T active, and that was killer intent, not Genjutsu.



> I'd also like to point out that though outdated, Guy was faster than Shoten Kisame, someone noted on panel to have trouble with speed, but still fell prey to the latters' superior strength, even with nunchaku and a team of support.




Guy's explicit surprise at Kisame's super strength is proof that he may not have been actively trying to avoid a CQC struggle to begin with.  Guy has a 5 in strength - he probably doesn't expect people to be capable of overpowering him.  He knows not to make that mistake here from the get-go.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Kakashi did not have his 3T active, and that was killer intent, not Genjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Its also to note that Gai did nothing wrong in Taijutsu, he blocked a blow, it was the fact he was surprised by the strength of Kisame. Who knows if Gai was looking to disarm Kisame twice after blocking. However what led to Gai blocking is unknown. We know Kisame used ninjutsu before and after that offpanel clash. Who knows. Also, Gai was forced into 6 Gates because he was underwater with 5 man eating sharks, a ninjutsu technique. Kisame didn't force Gai Gates in a pure Tai brawl. Have we forgotten Gai easily disarmed Kisame and was going to use his own superior weapon against him...to bad the weapon is alive...


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## Turrin (Jan 27, 2016)

The speed gap isn't great enough for Kakashi and Gai to fight an entire match w/ Tsunade w/o getting hit once, they will loose.


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2016)

Kakashi barely has a speed gap. And there are countless examples where having better taijustu compensates for the speed advantage. like hidan, who happens to be shit in CQC compared to the Slug Princess . Kakashi restricted to taijustu gets his shit pushed in easily. Gai , on the other hand, would fare much better against tsuande


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

1st Gat increases strength 5x than base. Not only that, but can make someone to 'climb the air'. Tsunade has no chance with base strength that made Obito even question his destruction ability. Add superior Taijutsu and reflexes to move whilst a nunchuku gets kamui warp.


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## Daenerys Stormborn (Jan 27, 2016)

I feel like both of them would hold out for a while--Gai's speed and Kakashi's sharingan precog would allow them to dodge all of Tsunade's blows for quite some time.  But without ninjutsu, genjutsu, or higher Gates, they won't be able to kill her, and sooner or later they'll take a hit.


(Rocky, I don't know if it makes any difference, but is Kakashi allowed to open the First Gate?  He showed the ability to do so in canon, and it's not a ninjutsu or genjutsu.)


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## Rocky (Jan 27, 2016)

He's allowed if you can make an argument for Kishi remembering he can do that Kakashi opting for it in an actual fight.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2016)

Jad said:


> 1st Gat increases strength 5x than base. Not only that, but can make someone to 'climb the air'. Tsunade has no chance with base strength that made Obito even question his destruction ability.



Gai smashing that boulder isn't something he couldn't have done before, and if he had been using the first gate there he would've looked like he was in "base", like Lee does when he uses it.

Tsunade tanked a hit from something with enough force to send her _flying into_ a boulder hard enough to shatter it and was fine (sans the injury Madara noticed regenerating which was dealt by a Susano'o blade), and can keep trucking even while sustaining legitimate injuries, so strikes of that level are something she could endure for quite a while.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Gai smashing that boulder isn't something he couldn't have done before, and if he had been using the first gate there he would've looked like he was in "base", like Lee does when he uses it.
> 
> Tsunade tanked a hit from something with enough force to send her _flying into_ a boulder hard enough to shatter it and was fine (sans the injury Madara noticed regenerating which was dealt by a Susano'o blade), and can keep trucking even while sustaining legitimate injuries, so strikes of that level are something she could endure for quite a while.



Databook does a job convincing his attacks were base.

Tsunade sat in the sane spot healing her injuries for several pages. How can you say she was fine without regen overshadowing any debilitating injuries.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2016)

Jad said:


> Databook does a job convincing his attacks were base.



What are you referring to?



> Tsunade sat in the sane spot healing her injuries for several pages. How can you say she was fine without regen overshadowing any debilitating injuries.



She sat there because she had been blasted out of range. What else would she do? Did you expect her to throw a rock at Susano'o or something when it was tanking chops from Raikage, who by the way was also sitting there?

We've seen Tsunade leap around with two swords practically the width of her waist lodged inside her, so we know that had she felt like it she could have kept going in spite of that injury, which was the stab by the Susano'o blade, as was noticed by Madara.


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## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2016)

Yoko said:


> She should lose both matches.  She's up against considerably quicker and more reflexive fighters.  Stamina is a nonfactor when both her opponents were able to fight through a multi-day war while spamming chakra-consuming techniques and trump cards, which aren't available to them here [which further increases their combat longevity].  Plus Guy has a 5 in stamina anyway compared to her 4, so her "Kage-chakra-tank" feats are probably attributable to her forehead chakra-storing diamond.
> 
> Guy has a 5 in speed and the first gate further augments that.  Manga knowledge should grant him intel on her super strength, meaning he won't try to do anything idiotic like say, trying to block a hit.  From there it will be nunchucks-to-the-skull galore; he'll beat her senseless until she dies.
> 
> ...



I can actually agree with this.Thing gets worse if Gai uses cutting weapons. His speed in base is already above her. One gate giving him another boost, plus the already gap in taijutsu and speed (superior Stamina as well) and i hardly see him losing.

Something i don't see is her non-chakra enhanced punches killing him. Gai was benting time and space with his body being broken into pieces by the gate of death.

Match will take long, but Gai has fought longer. With the adittion of a body breaking jutsu without healings.

But a good portion of the forum believes she can tag V2 Ei, i can see why someone says she would hit Gai. 

Not that i agree, though.


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## Veracity (Jan 27, 2016)

Bending space is not a durability feat.


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## Saru (Jan 27, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Thing gets worse if Gai uses cutting weapons.




I completely agree. The only reason I think Gai will have trouble defeating Tsunade (aside from dealing with her comparable taijutsu skill) is because the nunchaku seem to have more of blunt force, and I don't recall Gai's nunchaku blowing rocks apart or anything impressive in terms of their impact. I feel as though Tsunade should have the skill to at least take a hit and strike back.

However, you can't take a hit from a blade and strike back if your hand gets sliced half-off.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2016)

There are other body parts you can hit someone with besides your hand.


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## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Bending space is not a durability feat.



Resiliency and durability. Because travel at that speed and crashing was what was needed to break his feet. Naruto kind off snapped it with a slower movement speed and crashing against a less durable substance. 

So it is, indirectly. But i said it for the resiliency part, as i don't see a grasp or non-enhanced punch taking hitting him and disabling him through all the fight.


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## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> I completely agree. The only reason I think Gai will have trouble defeating Tsunade (aside from dealing with her comparable taijutsu skill) is because the nunchaku seem to have more of blunt force, and I don't recall Gai's nunchaku blowing rocks apart or anything impressive in terms of their impact. I feel as though Tsunade should have the skill to at least take a hit and strike back.
> 
> However, you can't take a hit from a blade and strike back if your hand gets sliced half-off.



Taking a hit and strike back didn't work well for Obito, facing a Gai in mid-air, in base and who had been fighting for days.

Tsunade doesn't have Kamui (Good luck trying to hit Gai while you're hit in the face), doesn't have Sharingan precog, doesn't have Obito's skills, who was kicking KCM Naruto's ass the same way he tried Gai and failed, and is facing a fresh 1 gated Gai.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2016)

Being hit wouldn't stop Tsunade from hitting Gai.

Obito never tried tanking a hit and then striking back (or to continue his strike), and his Sharingan anticipation _was working_.

Gai wouldn't be bouncing his nun-chucks around the same way against a target that's physically present as he was against a target they slipped through to the other side of. Blocking with them would get them broken and probably Gai along with them.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

Rock lee Genin could move his upper body so fast that he was leaving after images. But you may say that was just a visual thing. However it was stated he was moving so fast he could leave after images in the data book . Top that off that Gai can 'climb the air' in 1st Gate, can move so fast that a small object like Nunchuku's hadn't finished warping, and Nunchuku's expertly wielded by a master of Taijutsu that can impress Obito with his destructive power (shattering massive boulders), reflexes like lightning, massive Taijutsu and speed difference all but leaves Tsunade missing loads of shots with her straight forward punches. On the other hand, the amount of accumulated damage Gai will land is too much for Tsunade.


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## LostSelf (Jan 27, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Being hit wouldn't stop Tsunade from hitting Gai.



It will. Gai's strikes should be capable of sending her flying or at the very least, interrupt her hit for x amount of time. Unless we say the fight will go down like when Krillin started to fight Perfect Cell, where Cell shrugged off all his attacks and finished him off.

But i don't see that happening, we might end up agreeing to disagreeing if it's this way. 



> Obito never tried tanking a hit and then striking back (or to continue his strike), and his Sharingan anticipation _was working_.



Obito tried to warp Gai. Gai just didn't let him. And he did attacking two times before Obito could finish an attack.



> Gai wouldn't be bouncing his nun-chucks around the same way against a target that's physically present as he was against a target they slipped through to the other side of. Blocking with them would get them broken and probably Gai along with them.




Different enemies, i agree. Different tactics Gai can employ. Unless Gai's taken at a bad position (mid air, for example). I don't see why he can't hit her and avoid once she tries to hit him. He's actually much faster than her.


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## Beyonce (Jan 27, 2016)

Yoko said:


> She should lose both matches.  She's up against considerably quicker and more reflexive fighters.  Stamina is a nonfactor when both her opponents were able to fight through a multi-day war while spamming chakra-consuming techniques and trump cards, which aren't available to them here [which further increases their combat longevity].  Plus Guy has a 5 in stamina anyway compared to her 4, so her "Kage-chakra-tank" feats are probably attributable to her forehead chakra-storing diamond.
> 
> Guy has a 5 in speed and the first gate further augments that.  Manga knowledge should grant him intel on her super strength, meaning he won't try to do anything idiotic like say, trying to block a hit. * From there it will be nunchucks-to-the-skull galore; he'll beat her senseless until she dies*.


So Tsunade's just going to stand there as Gai smashes her with Nunchucks? Tsunade's been dealt with much more damage than Nunchucks, If Gai gets close to her and attempts such a thing, a chakra enhanced punch will send him flying.

He may be faster but that doesn't mean he can just blitz her so easy.




> Kakashi is also faster than her, and 3T precognition ensures she won't lay a finger on him.  He has full knowledge on her strength so he too will know not to try blocking.  His kunai swipes will accumulate - *first it will be a small scratch, then two, then perhaps a chopped off arm*, until she slows down enough for him to behead her.


He's literally only 1 point faster than her. That won't warrant multiple blitzing without him being punched and sustaining heavy damage.



> Both fights will basically be similar to P1 Tsunade vs. P1 Kabuto.  Sure, Tsunade has grown since then, but her opponents are not P1 Kabuto.  Any improvements she may have made while occupying the rustiness-inducing Hokage seat is completely offset by the sheer disparity in combat prowess between P1 Kabuto and EoS Masters.



These EOS masters are stripped of their jutsu and stuck using hand to hand. Tsunade keeps not only her insane pain tolerance and resistance to attacks, but also her super strength which is her main form of combat. I don't see either of them winning against her.


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## Jad (Jan 27, 2016)

Tsunade can't throw an attack fast enough to land a hit on someone with lighting reflexes, and can move their upper body fast enough before nunhuku's are kamui warped. You can't use Taijutsu over speed argument as well, since she is up against her much hyped, feats endowed superior in that department. It will have to take Gai slipping up or losing enough stamina till she lands a hit. That isn't going to happen any time soon before she is downed by Gai. Now multiply all that I said by 1st Gate.


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## Deleted member 211714 (Jan 27, 2016)

Gai commented on Kisame's physical strength, if I recall correctly. Tsunade is even stronger than Kisame and can really screw up either Gai or Kakashi in one hit. Sooner or later, she'll land that one hit and take the advantage rather quickly.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Kakashi did not have his 3T active, and that was killer intent, not Genjutsu.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Orochimaru uses a genjutsu to amplify his killing intent, such that it shows an image of death to the recipient.  It's a neat but bizarre thing I'm probably wrong about.

Weird if Kakashi didn't have his sharingan active considering he flared up raikiri.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

Saru said:


> I completely agree. The only reason I think Gai will have trouble defeating Tsunade (aside from dealing with her comparable taijutsu skill) is because the nunchaku seem to have more of blunt force, and I don't recall Gai's nunchaku blowing rocks apart or anything impressive in terms of their impact. I feel as though Tsunade should have the skill to at least take a hit and strike back.
> 
> However, you can't take a hit from a blade and strike back if your hand gets sliced half-off.



Tsunade didn't get her arms cut of by Susano blades or Kusunagi, either because they can't, or she wouldn't let them.  Kunai aren't lopping her limbs.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 27, 2016)

Or because they grew back in the Susano'o-blade case.

But Kakashi and Gai's weapons aren't like those mentioned there.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

I'm glad to see Beyonc? in this thread.


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## I Blue I (Jan 27, 2016)

Kakashi and Gai are not so skilled to the point that they can kill Tsunade in a prolonged close quarters exchange without ever having to take, block, or parry a single blow. Her herculean strength nullifies her opponents' weapon advantage when she can simply swat them away or destroy them. Tsunade has strength such that she can bust lower manifestations of Susano'o; one blow, even a glancing or blocked one, will be fatal.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 27, 2016)

Tsunade knocked away five simultaneous fireballs, as some person so kindly counted.  I don't know if she hit them all at once, or in sequence, but it should throw out or call into question the notion that it's safe to throw strikes at Tsunade without risk of having them intercepted.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

Also since Chakra Enhanced Strength is unrestricted then AOE punches are going to fuck over Kakashi and Gai so much. Hashirama said Tsunade's punch MIGHT be weaker than Sakura's, and shit if she can even do half the damage Sakura did with her punch, she can still miss a punch by meters and still send them flying in the air.


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## Beyonce (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Also since Chakra Enhanced Strength is unrestricted then AOE punches are going to fuck over Kakashi and Gai so much. Hashirama said Tsunade's punch MIGHT be weaker than Sakura's, and shit if she can even do half the damage Sakura did with her punch, she can still miss a punch by meters and still send them flying in the air.



Off topic, but I always thought that that quote was funny. Makes me wonder when Hashirama actually died to see Tsunade's monstrous strength (If I recall, it was during Tsunade's genin days).


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## Bonly (Jan 28, 2016)

I'd side with Tsunade more times then not for both fights, the masters aren't skilled enough to go into CQC with her multiple times and not get hit once over a long battle. They will both get killed and it'll be a crippling blow that will swings the tides in Tsunade favor if said hit doesn't outright kill her


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

3.5 stamina using excessive amounts of chakra for punches let alone movement in speed / taijutsu exhaustion, as well as keeping young appearance. Tsunade is going to drain her self before Mr. 500 laps around Konoha on your hands as a warm up gets close to a wiff of Tsunades punches. On top of his lighting fast reflexes, giant boulder shattering Nunchuku blows which allows keeping distance, massive Taijutsu and speed difference to keep it up hours on end. Yeah. She has one advantage over Gai and somehow all his advantages don't matter. What...Jackie Chan / Bruce Lee copy bruitalises her. Taijutsu skills aren't even comparable.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Durabilty, strentgh, and resilience isn't one advantage.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

Tsunade's stamina is 4, which is Part 1 Naruto level who made a thousand clones, and his chakra control is probably waaaay worse than Tsunade's. Due to her chakra control she could use minimal chakra and still get great results. Also, let's not forget that Kakashi stated Part 1 Naruto had way more chakra than him. 

Now, throw my argument away. Databook stats are pretty useless in a debate, and at best could be used for a featless character. We have Ino fighting evenly with Asuma while in Choji's slower body while having a mental conversation. We have Shikamaru being able to avoid Kakazu, and tango with Hidan even though his stats are worse. We have Hidan pressuring Asuma even though Asuma has an equal taijutsu stat and a higher speed stat. 

Shit, part 1 Rock Lee's speed stat is 4. Hidan, Tsunade, Kabuto, and Hiruzen have 3.5 in speed(Hiruzen actually has 3) and I will accept nothing else except all of them speedblitzing part 1 Lee.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> Resiliency and durability. Because travel at that speed and crashing was what was needed to break his feet. Naruto kind off snapped it with a slower movement speed and crashing against a less durable substance.
> 
> So it is, indirectly. But i said it for the resiliency part, as i don't see a grasp or non-enhanced punch taking hitting him and disabling him through all the fight.




 Yeah no. I'm not granting Gai, KCM naruto level durability just because of his exaggerated feats. Riduko Naruto and Sasuke have shown to be faster than Red Gate Gai, yet don't "bend " space when they move. Bending is based on his technique . The same way he is slower than God tiers in the 7th gate , yet still produces flames via pure friction. 8th Gate gai was avoiding any attacks from Madara because he is a glass cannon. He isn't surviving crater producing Punch's just because he can " bend " space. Gates doesn't increase durability, and he was coughing up blood from Shoten Kisame, and lacked the pain tolerance/durability to hold samehada with its shark features.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Durabilty, strentgh, and resilience isn't one advantage.



Durability: Gai has steel like durability as noted. Got off with a busted rib from a failed point blank Hirudora that was about the size of 5% Katsuya (was it?), and straight after used 8 Gated.

Resiliency: Gai used his greatest Taijutsu move whilst at deaths door. Tsunade gets considerably sloopy in comparison. Let alone 8 Gates usage altogether.

Chakra based Strength is her major one advantage. You can argue resiliency, but durability, at least the guy, Kishimoto, notes those who have high durability for the readers to truly understand.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

If Gai went through the heavenly transfer he'd probably be worse off than Tsunade if not ground meat. Miniature Susanoo shuriken would probably cut him in half.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Jad said:


> Durability: Gai has steel like durability as noted. Got off with a busted rib from a failed point blank Hirudora that was about the size of 5% Katsuya (was it?), and straight after used 8 Gated.
> 
> Resiliency: Gai used his greatest Taijutsu move whilst at deaths door. Tsunade gets considerably sloopy in comparison. Let alone 8 Gates usage altogether.
> 
> Chakra based Strength is her major one advantage. You can argue resiliency, but durability, at least the guy, Kishimoto, notes those who have high durability for the readers to truly understand.




Durability: Coughs up from 30% Kisame blows and gets pierced easily by Samehada shark teeth.

Resilience: Still nothing compared to Tsunade, as he isn't moving close to full speed with his midsection in pieces. Or moving with his spinal cord snapped. Or surviving hours while being in half. Or moving with his intercostal lungs severed.

He was turning into dust after the 8th gate. And maintaining the 8th gate is expected right? What's the point of the tech, if you turn into dust before you can even pull anything off? Remebert that Dai could use the 8th gate for long enough for his students to escape.


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> If Gai went through the heavenly transfer he'd probably be worse off than Tsunade if not ground meat. Miniature Susanoo shuriken would probably cut him in half.



He bent space while running...and that was at his lowest point of durability.

I already discredited that minature shuriken thing, as it was all rounded/blunt. And the only sharp point was fired at Tsunade in the opposite direction.


----------



## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

It's a Shuriken, it spins. It wasn't blunted. 

Bending space isn't a durability feat.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Rock Lee was "durable" enough to use gates, but he got sliced by a bone dagger and got pulverized by sand, and his face beaten in by chakraless or sparring safe palm strikes, and Dosu kicks.  

Gates don't give you durability feats, unless you think the average ninja would explode upon opening them.  In fact they give you the opposite of durability feats, since your body gets destroyed by using them.  Show me someone running around in gates without suffering damage or exhaustion, and I'll call them durable.


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> It's a Shuriken, it spins. It wasn't blunted.
> 
> Bending space isn't a durability feat.



It spins? How do you know he spun it? It didn't have a spinning motion in the manga. In the anime, all three shurikens moved clockwise because of the attached chakra string, not the individual shurikens. The thing is, it spun slowly, and did half a spin before hitting Tsunade. Other than that pointy end, the circle was rounded/blunt. You can clearly see that. Try show me in the image how the circular shuriken object is sharp. Tsu afe can clearly be cut by Sasuno material, it's obvious the shurikens purpose was just to hit her with force.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Rock Lee was "durable" enough to use gates, but he got sliced by a bone dagger and got pulverized by sand, and his face beaten in by chakraless or sparring safe palm strikes, and Dosu kicks.
> 
> Gates don't give you durability feats, unless you think the average ninja would explode upon opening them.  In fact they give you the opposite of durability feats, since your body gets destroyed by using them.  Show me someone running around in gates without suffering damage or exhaustion, and I'll call them durable.



Never said Gates give you durability....


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

It's a Susanoo shuriken.

In all instances in the manga Shuriken spin when thrown.

When Itachi used the technique it spun.

When Madara used it against the Gokage it spun. 

You're saying in this one instance it didn't spin because it hurts your argument.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

In all instances yasa magatama has been illustrated as spinning,  except when Tsunade got hit. Even in the anime it barely spun.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

"Barely spun"

In the anime it spun 5 times before hitting her.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> "Barely spun"
> 
> In the anime it spun 5 times before hitting her.



True. But it wasn't spinning at all fast. It was going pretty slow, unlike other times. So really those spikes on the end of the shurikens wouldn't have done anything, the technique was merely all blunt force, like the rounded/blunt circular shuriken.

At the end of the day those shurikens are weaker than a stab by Madara using Sasuno blade.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

Where's the proof that it was blunt force?

I agree, the miniature Susanoo shuriken is weaker than a Susanoo sword stab, but that doesn't mean taking them is a walk in the park. I think Gai and Kakashi would take more damage from then then Tsunade did.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Well, Gai needed a 10 second breather after having a bomb explode point blank on him the size of 5% (10? The one Tsunade and Sakura summoned) Katsuya. And that was before having been purely exhausted and possibly damaged off panel. I rate that better than crashing into a boulder.

Also how is running at space bending speed no different to traveling at the speed of light when it comes to considering it a durability feat? Especially when the latter was almost burnt head to toe, inside and out, and could still execute the strongest Taijutsu move in history? How is that not also a resiliency feat? I don't remember any character executing anything powerful when their body is crumbling. Gai could have stopped the moment he entered 8th Gate, because the pain was not 'hidden', he felt it, overpowered it through sheer will and resiliency, and ,marched on. He actually got used to the pain, pain that was killing him - literally.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

He didn't tank his own afternoon tiger, so I don't know what you mean by bomb. 

Bending space didn't tear his body apart, the gates themselves did that. No where was it said that him bending space damaged him. Gates does weird shit; characters who move faster than 6 gate and above Gai don't catch on fire when moving.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> He didn't tank his own afternoon tiger, so I don't know what you mean by bomb.



What do you mean? It may have not been the REAL afternoon Tiger, but it was a bomb like explosion one way or another, look at how huge it was [1]. He got recovered not 10 seconds after, only to go full 8 Gates...




> Bending space didn't tear his body apart, the gates themselves did that. No where was it said that him bending space damaged him. Gates does weird shit; characters who move faster than 6 gate and above Gai don't catch on fire when moving.



There should be no difference between the two scenarios technically. One scenario Tsunade was traveling at lightning speed. Second scenario Gai was traveling at space bending/altering speed. Doesn't matter, what I said in point 1 should be enough of a durability feat. That and Kishimoto saying his body is like 'honed steel'.

Other than that one time in start of Part 2 where Gai got punched by Kisame that was almost like a check-mate scenario fighting on Kisame's turf, all of Gai's durability feats are off paneled by Madara. Gai hardly ever gets hit on panel because how nimble and quick.

Unless you want to use Kakashi Hiden feats to validate his durability lol...

On the topic of the book. The author believes Gai can move so fast he can leave after images. That he can dodge almost every attack unless they slip on vomit/alcohol. Take a barrage of crater level, steel / ice block punches. Gai being able to land blows strong enough to send an enemy flying out the bottom of  a ship (if it wasn't for a circuitry of pipes). And that Gai stating no one has successfully attacked him while wielding his Nunchuku's. I just find it a little funny. All with a broken leg and in base mind you. At least someone can relate to how I believe Gai can fight. Why can't that author post on this forum...


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Where's the proof that it was blunt force?
> 
> I agree, the miniature Susanoo shuriken is weaker than a Susanoo sword stab, but that doesn't mean taking them is a walk in the park. I think Gai and Kakashi would take more damage from then then Tsunade did.



Kakashi would die.  Guy would be nearly dead or dead.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

> Also how is running at space bending speed no different to traveling at the speed of light when it comes to considering it a durability feat?



Guy's leg shattered when he kicked Madara.

Tsunade's didn't.

When Space/Time is bending around you, you aren't encountering any resistance.  Reality is getting out of your way.  For reasons.  When you're being Mabui warped, that doesn't seem to be the case.  For reasons.


> Gai stating no one has successfully attacked him while wielding his Nunchuku's.



Here Guy said he'd never forget Kisame.  What a jerk.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kakashi would die.  Guy would be nearly dead or dead.



You think Tsunade can heal from one Evening elephant. You've lost your Tsunade durability pro-defence argument rights 



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Here Guy said he'd never forget Kisame.  What a jerk.



 Also, Gai wasn't weilding Soshuuga against Kisame.

Nunchukus' I mean as in plural, my bad. I used the comma wrongly.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

I can't remember if I really believed that or just wanted to hear you scream.

I probably do.  I'm not really sure.  I know that ultimately the principle and depiction of how Gated Guy vs regeneration would go turned out to be correct.  Ultimately Guy beat the crap out of the person, but they regenerated and went to kill him while he suffered the backlash from gates.  That turned out correct.  

However I would need to look at that Madara in comparison to other attacks and see the damage he took, and scale that in comparison to Tsunade while accounting for a number of factors, and cross-check that with other examples from characters in the manga at that time and others.  There's 15 forms of Madara though, and the manga was a mess, so I probably can't and won't, and just handwave it.  Or I'd shortcut it and say that EE is blunt force, and doesn't disintegrate people like the dragon kick, so it would probably send Tsunade flying 1000 miles.  Though I think Madara said it would be bad for him if he took the punch directly.  Hmm.  Oh yeah.  I handwaved it by saying ultimately it doesn't matter since 8th gate Guy has the dragon kick he'd use anyway, and since he's going to die no matter what he does it's splitting hairs to try and count elephants.  Yeah, that's my opinion.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

I believe you when you say and believe she can tank Evening Elephant, at least to live through it enough to regenerate. With that sought of belief, there really isn't anyway to make an argument that Gai could beat Tsunade that would even come close to making you think twice. It makes sense that Gai won't beat Tsunade with that mindset you believe. Hence why I think you've gone too far with that belief.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kakashi would die.  Guy would be nearly dead or dead.



There's the problem. There's no proof of that.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Yeah no. I'm not granting Gai, KCM naruto level durability just because of his exaggerated feats. Riduko Naruto and Sasuke have shown to be faster than Red Gate Gai, yet don't "bend " space when they move. Bending is based on his technique . The same way he is slower than God tiers in the 7th gate , yet still produces flames via pure friction. 8th Gate gai was avoiding any attacks from Madara because he is a glass cannon. He isn't surviving crater producing Punch's just because he can " bend " space. Gates doesn't increase durability, and he was coughing up blood from Shoten Kisame, and lacked the pain tolerance/durability to hold samehada with its shark features.



That's the funny part. When ti comes to Gai, everything for you is exaggerated, art error, bullshit, etc. With all respect you deserve, i severely disagree with that double standard way of seeing things.

Naruto broke his anckle just crashing slower against a wall. Gai had to move benting time and space with his body being internally destroyed to suffer from just a bit more damage than that, at insanely much more speeds.

Everything Tsunade has done, even lifting the blade, has been attributed to chakra enhancement. Without it, she's not busting Gai's body at all. I dare to say she might not even be on his equal footing when it comes to physical strenght.

The DB implied her use of chakra to become insanely strong, followed by "lifting a giant sword!" or something like that. That explains why her not-chakra enhanced hits did jack-shit to Kabuto.

Pure Taijutsu Tsunade won't be doing anything to Gai. She can damage him, _maybe_. But he'll just get up and slap her harder.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

The only way Tsunade could have applied Chakra-enhanced strength to the Gamabunta tantō feat is by using it to bound while carrying the sword.

The act of picking up and swinging the sword she had to have done with her natural strength, or else Sakura wouldn't have used an explosive note to get out of a measly rope attached to a kunai.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The only way Tsunade could have applied Chakra-enhanced strength to the Gamabunta tantō feat is by using it to bound while carrying the sword.
> 
> The act of picking up and swinging the sword she had to have done with her natural strength, or else Sakura wouldn't have used an explosive note to get out of a measly rope attached to a kunai.



You can try to decrypt it however you want. But that whole act was Chakra related. A whole section in the databook was dedicated to Tsunade and her 'strength'. I think Kishimoto made it pretty clear in his entry.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> The only way Tsunade could have applied Chakra-enhanced strength to the Gamabunta tantō feat is by using it to bound while carrying the sword.
> 
> The act of picking up and swinging the sword she had to have done with her natural strength, or else Sakura wouldn't have used an explosive note to get out of a measly rope attached to a kunai.



Why while?

Sakura has been using her effectiveness in chakra control since the forest of death. She prepared a giant log as a trap extremely fast. Moved huge boulders and pulled Sasori extremely easy. Those should be proofs of chakra enhancing even lifting strenght, unless Sakura were as strong as Rock Lee was with her 0.5 in strenght.

Sage mode also grant you much more strenght, not only impact. As Naruto showed sending a Rhino flying like nothing. So getting more strenght via chakra is very possible, not only hitting strenght.

Notable mention: Choji as the prime example.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

Jad said:


> What do you mean? It may have not been the REAL afternoon Tiger, but it was a bomb like explosion one way or another, look at how huge it was [1]. He got recovered not 10 seconds after, only to go full 8 Gates...



Again, using afternoon tiger isn't the same as getting hit by afternoon tiger. Just like Sakura didn't get hit with her Byakogou shockwave punch. 

If Gai were to get hit by a afternoon tiger he's dead.

If Sakura were to get her by her own Byakogou enhanced punch she'd probably die before she can regenerate. 





> There should be no difference between the two scenarios *technically*. One scenario Tsunade was traveling at lightning speed. Second scenario Gai was traveling at space bending/altering speed. Doesn't matter, what I said in point 1 should be enough of a durability feat. That and Kishimoto saying his body is like 'honed steel'.



Technicalities don't matter in this case. Bending space isn't a durability feat, and it isn't implied to be one. 



> Other than that one time in start of Part 2 where Gai got punched by Kisame that was almost like a check-mate scenario fighting on Kisame's turf, all of Gai's durability feats are off paneled by Madara. Gai hardly ever gets hit on panel because how nimble and quick.
> 
> Unless you want to use Kakashi Hiden feats to validate his durability lol...
> 
> On the topic of the book. The author believes Gai can move so fast he can leave after images. That he can dodge almost every attack unless they slip on vomit/alcohol. Take a barrage of crater level, steel / ice block punches. Gai being able to land blows strong enough to send an enemy flying out the bottom of  a ship (if it wasn't for a circuitry of pipes). And that Gai stating no one has successfully attacked him while wielding his Nunchuku's. I just find it a little funny. All with a broken leg and in base mind you. At least someone can relate to how I believe Gai can fight. Why can't that author post on this forum...



If you wanna bring hype in this Jiraiya said no one can stand shoulder to Tsunade in combat. Also yeah, amaterasu hot as sun. 



Jad said:


> With that sought of belief, there really isn't anyway to make an argument that Gai could beat Tsunade that would even come close to making you think twice.



Although you directed this towards SoW, I'd like to say I think 7th gate Gai could beat Tsunade(with katsuyu restricted) after a few consecutive afternoon tigers. 

I find it preposterous you think Gai could kill Tsunade with only 1 gate at his disposal 




Jad said:


> You can try to decrypt it however you want. But that whole act was Chakra related. A whole section in the databook was dedicated to Tsunade and her 'strength'. I think Kishimoto made it pretty clear in his entry.



Databook gonna databook.

The section for cherry blossom impact mechanically doesn't work for lifting things. Releasing chakra upon impact does not correlate with lifting feats, unless she punched the sword in the sky, and guided it midair by punching it, and then punched it downwards(which didn't happen). 

As FlamingRain said, Sakura was fucked when tied by rope. Tsunade would've flexed out of it. 




LostSelf said:


> Naruto broke his anckle just crashing slower against a wall. Gai had to move benting time and space with his body being internally destroyed to suffer from just a bit more damage than that, at insanely much more speeds.



Again, bending time and space was never stated to damage his body. It wasn't a durability feat, it was a speed feat. Nothing more, nothing less. 



> Everything Tsunade has done, even lifting the blade, has been attributed to chakra enhancement. Without it, she's not busting Gai's body at all. I dare to say she might not even be on his equal footing when it comes to physical strenght.



The databook stats are done without chakra, or Sakura would've had a 5 instead of her 3.5. Databook stats, while terrible when comparing characters, doesn't take body flicker or chakra enhanced strength for account. Tsunade still scored a 5 in strength. 

Also this point is irrelevant because the creator of the thread said chakra enhanced strength isn't restricted. 



> The DB implied her use of chakra to become insanely strong, followed by "lifting a giant sword!" or something like that. *That explains why her not-chakra enhanced hits did jack-shit to Kabuto*.



Did you miss the part where he hit her muscles? 



> Pure Taijutsu Tsunade won't be doing anything to Gai. She can damage him, _maybe_. But he'll just get up and slap her harder.



Sorry, Tsunade can get up from a hit from Gai, but Gai can't do the same. 



LostSelf said:


> Why while?
> 
> Sakura has been using her effectiveness in chakra control since the forest of death. She prepared a giant log as a trap extremely fast. Moved huge boulders and pulled Sasori extremely easy. Those should be proofs of chakra enhancing even lifting strenght, unless Sakura were as strong as Rock Lee was with her 0.5 in strenght.
> 
> ...



So why didn't Sakura flex out of her rope?

I had a similar discussion about this with Daviz, where we agreed to disagree. Ninja's, even with a 0.5 in strength are waaaaaaay fucking stronger than people in real life. While lifting the giant _hollow_ log is impressive by real life standards, it's more or less the bare minimum in Naruto. Karin could effortlessly kick a grown man around. Part 1 Sakura could probably carry grown adults with her 12 year old noodle arms.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> Again, bending time and space was never stated to damage his body. It wasn't a durability feat, it was a speed feat. Nothing more, nothing less.



You're looking at one thing that i'm not implying. Bending time and space is not the durability feat (is the resiliency feat to tolerate pain and keep fighting wihtout slowing down). The durability feat is crashing at that speed and only getting that kind of injury. And to put an example: Naruto. Crashed at slower speeds and broke his ankle.



> The databook stats are done without chakra, or Sakura would've had a 5 instead of her 3.5. Databook stats, while terrible when comparing characters, doesn't take body flicker or chakra enhanced strength for account. Tsunade still scored a 5 in strength.




So, 0.5 Sakura lifted a log several times bigger than her. How is that not using chakra enhanced strenght? I mean, stronger Gaiden Kakashi couldn't even move an inch of a boulder probably the same size (or a bit more) than said log. And i wouldn't say Gaiden Kakashi has a 0 in strenght.

And i'm not saying Tsunade is weak at all. She can have her  in strenght. But people assume she has Bijuudama level punches even without chakra enhancement. Without chakra enhancement, the best we can say for her is her lifting Bunta's blade feat (wich i disagree, it was CES), similar feat to SM Naruto, whose hit was blocked by Deva, or HM Jiraiya, whose hit was blocked by Human without any kind of problems.

I put my bet on 1-gated Gai blocking it or taking it without much issues.


> Also this point is irrelevant because the creator of the thread said chakra enhanced strength isn't restricted.



If that's so, then my bad. My point doesn't change much, though.



> Did you miss the part where he hit her muscles?



Yes, to make her unable to put chakra into her hits. 



> Sorry, Tsunade can get up from a hit from Gai, but Gai can't do the same.



My post above disagrees with this. Just like Deva Path could get up from SM Naruto's kick (comparable strenght to the _only_ feat her natural (assuming it was natural strenght) displayed, or Humab locking Jiraiya, then yeah.

I'd bet Gai would block her too.



> So why didn't Sakura flex out of her rope?



What rope?



> I had a similar discussion about this with Daviz, where we agreed to disagree. Ninja's, even with a 0.5 in strength are waaaaaaay fucking stronger than people in real life. While lifting the giant _hollow_ log is impressive by real life standards, it's more or less the bare minimum in Naruto. Karin could effortlessly kick a grown man around. Part 1 Sakura could probably carry grown adults with her 12 year old noodle arms.




Kick a grown adult aside =/= lifting a giant log. Kakashi and Rin couldn't lift barely a rock to let Obito come out. And they were both older than her. 

We'd then agree to disagree


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Jad said:


> You can try to decrypt it however you want.



Don't try spinning that crap at me.

The databook mentions her tantō feat, and I just gave you a way it could have applied that would still be consistent with other instances in the manga and descriptions in the databook.



LostSelf said:


> She prepared a giant log as a trap extremely fast.



It wasn't even night yet when team 7 met Orochimaru, the sun was out by the before the Sound ninja approached the group and they asked her about being up all night, so no.



> Moved huge boulders and pulled Sasori extremely easy. Those should be proofs of chakra enhancing even lifting strenght, unless Sakura were as strong as Rock Lee was with her 0.5 in strenght.



She moved a boulder, but that could have been done with her normal strength since she's in the same tier as Lee who could rip tree roots out of the ground. 

Sasori barely weighs over 100 pounds, so I don't think that'd require it either.



> Sage mode also grant you much more strenght, not only impact.



Sage Mode is not CES.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> It wasn't even night yet when team 7 met Orochimaru, the sun was out by the before the Sound ninja approached the group and they asked her about being up all night, so no.



Fair enough. Tell me how this helps if you're not strong enough to lift it?



> She moved a boulder, but that could have been done with her normal strength since she's in the same tier as Lee who could rip tree roots out of the ground.



No, that was badly made sarcasm. She wasn't in the same tier as Lee. Sakura had a 0.5 in strenght.  Lee almost trippled her in strenght.



> Sasori barely weighs over 100 pounds, so I don't think that'd require it either.



Sasori was moving on the opposite side at enough speeds to pressure Chiyo. It's not only "pulling 100 pounds".



> Sage Mode is not CES.



Never implied that. Just showing that chakra can make you stronger. And there's not proof at all to assume Tsunade didn't use chakra to get stronger and lift the blade by herself. Like Choji could do to block an extremely powerful punch who rivalled Tsunade's feat.

Wich is funny because even you call it "chakra enhanced _strenght_ .


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> You're looking at one thing that i'm not implying. Bending time and space is not the durability feat (is the resiliency feat to tolerate pain and keep fighting wihtout slowing down). The durability feat is crashing at that speed and only getting that kind of injury. And to put an example: Naruto. Crashed at slower speeds and broke his ankle.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Kabuto cut her muscles, he didn't cut her Chakra of, because she was still using medical Jutsu after he touched her with those scalpels. 



LostSelf said:


> Fair enough. Tell me how this helps if you're not strong enough to lift it?



Who said she even lifted it as opposed to finding it somewhere and getting rid of whatever was keeping it from falling at that point once she set up the ropes?



> No, that was badly made sarcasm.



The databook statistic is not sarcasm.

_The Sakura that moved the boulder_ is in the same tier as Lee.



> Sasori was moving on the opposite side at enough speeds to pressure Chiyo.



Chiyo could react to attacks that broke the sound barrier, so she was fine.

If Sasori were going that fast Sakura would have been sitting there trying to figure out what the crap was going on.



> And there's not proof at all to assume Tsunade didn't use chakra to get stronger and lift the blade by herself.



Sakura not busting that rope is evidence of that, as is the databook description saying that the Chakra is released at the moment of impact.

There is no proof that Tsunade used it to lift the blade as opposed to bounding several hundred meters while holding the blade.


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## LostSelf (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> You forget the part where he was permanently crippled, but okay.





> Quick question. Where are you going with this one, are you saying the damage would be different if it was someone else? Let's say Sakura for example. If she could hypothetically use Night Gai would she turn to mist upon hitting her target? What about Third Raikage, would his leg not even break?



Gai hit harder and faster than how KCM Naruto crashed against the wall and was intact the moment he hit Juudara in the back and pushed him through his shield. Now, compare that with KCM Naruto breaking his own ankle by just crashing slower and against a weaker substance (unless we say Juudara is softer than the wall Naruto crashed in).



> Because a boulder weights waaaay more than a *hollow* log. Again, what we consider super strength is the bare minimum in Naruto's world. Ino, Hinata, Shikamaru, all of them could probably lift that log. It is by no means impressive by their standards, but in real life? Part 1 Sakura could probably beat our fastest man in our world in a race, and our strongest man in our world in an arm wrestle match.



I'm not considering lifting a giant log to be bare minimum in Naruto's world. I kind off recall another comparison to this, but i'll search for it when i have time.



> Can I have scans of these instances?



Human blocking Jiraiya [1]
Naruto kicking a tired Deva clean: [2]
There is another, but i think those two should be enough.



> Gai's arm isn't harder than rib cage Susanoo.



Of course not. But i'm not saying Gai can block CES Tsunade. I'm saying he can block her _non_ CES punches. If you read my post, i said it like twice. Wich is why i made a comparison with her best non-chakra enhanced strenght feat with SM users.




> YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
> 
> I'm not sure if you're just being dishonest or not but... *Chakra scalpel isn't gentle fist*. He disabled her muscles, he didn't make her "unable to put chakra into her hits". So what, she couldn't flow chakra into her hand? Did she not use shosen right after? If anything she was fighting Kabuto without chakra enhanced strength.



Really?

Kakashi also compares her with Tsunade while he sees her gathering chakra to her fist. Then, why didn't Tsunade just blasted Kabuto away focusing chakra in her shoulder?



> Scans please. Also I don't see Sage Naruto or Sage Jiraiya cracking rib cage Susanoo with a punch.



Me neither. But then again, i'm talking about her Non Chakra enhancement strenght.



> The one Sasori tied her with when she was in the poisonous cloud. It's just rope, she should've just been able to rip through it, instead of using a paper bomb.



Wasn't her in danger and needed an inmediate escape? I don't recall much of that fight, and i cannot look for it right now, could you please link me there?



> I like how you call the big ass boulder "a rock"
> 
> I'm not sure if you're purposely being disingenuous or not but... A giant hollow log doesn't even weigh HALF as much as that boulder.



How do you know it was big-ass rock? I mean, i give you the point that it's not comparable a hollow log with a rock, but the sizes doesn't look to different, and i never said lift the rocks. But we have two stronger shinobis than Sakura there. How couldn't they even lift it barely?

FR: I'll answer later. Gotta go right now.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

> Gai hit harder and faster than how KCM Naruto crashed against the wall and was intact the moment he hit Juudara in the back and pushed him through his shield. Now, compare that with KCM Naruto breaking his own ankle by just crashing slower and against a weaker substance (unless we say Juudara is softer than the wall Naruto crashed in).



You didn't answer my question. 






> Human blocking Jiraiya [1]



When you said block, I thought you meant he used his arm to block a punch... Catching a fist isn't what I'd call a block. 




> Naruto kicking a tired Deva clean: [2]
> There is another, but i think those two should be enough



So he was knocked meters away(look at the page when Naruto throws rasenshuriken, it's coming from far away) and floored for the next few pages. Since the paths are corpses being used as puppets, we don't really know what kind of damage he sustained. For all we know that kick cracked ribs. Regardless, that just shows Tsunade's chakra enhanced strength is on another level. 





> Of course not. But i'm not saying Gai can block CES Tsunade. I'm saying he can block her _non_ CES punches. If you read my post, i said it like twice. Wich is why i made a comparison with her best non-chakra enhanced strenght feat with SM users.



My bad. How is non CES punches relevant to this discussion if CES isn't restricted. Maybe being able to block non CES strength isn't helping him against CES strength. 






> Really?
> 
> Kakashi also compares her with Tsunade while he sees her gathering chakra to her fist. Then, why didn't Tsunade just blasted Kabuto away focusing chakra in her shoulder?



He just said she might become a better shinobi than Tsunade, that's all. Also, they both use CES because Tsunade probably invented it.


As for the Kabuto fight, let's look again on what transpired. Kabuto attacks from underground, Tsunade jumps and then comes crashing down with a punch. 

Really?

This punch right here is obviously not chakra enhanced. It paled before any of her previous craters. Tsunade was tired before there fight officially began because Orochimaru and Kabuto wore her out by having her chase them. Kabuto then proceeded to take a soldier pill so he wouldn't be hindered by being worn out. Tsunade's opponent wasn't only Kabuto, she was planning on fighting Orochimaru too, a fellow Sannin. I think she was not using chakra enhanced strength because she wanted to save chakra, and because her regular hits are enough to fuck people up. 

Kabuto runs to the side to avoid Tsunade's hit, and Tsunade follows up with a jump kick. Kabuto ducks, and Tsunade tears through a boulder. Kabuto then body flickers while Tsunade is vulnerable mid air, because you can't dodge mid air unless you can fly or you have a clone throw you out of the way. 

Really?

Kabuto hits her MUSCLES(not chakra network) with chakra scalpel, and upon landing Tsunade recovers and tackles Kabuto.

Really?

AFTER the tackle, Tsunade thinks "Muscles!" and not "Chakra!". This further shows she was using natural strength to fight Kabuto. She noticed her muscles were fucked after the tackle, not before, so she had no reason to switch to chakra enhanced strength in that point of the fight. It makes no sense for a chakra scalpel to stop her from being able to use a technique. 

Now, after she realizes her muscles are fucked, it's more or less too late. She's on her knees with fucked muscles, and Kabuto runs at her before she can even stand up. She tries to protect her neck because that's what Kabuto said he'd hit, but instead he hit her respiratory muscles. 

At this point, she can't breathe, and she needs to buy herself time to heal. Tsunade has three options. She can hit him with her natural strength which is now garbage tier because of the chakra scalpel. She could hit him with chakra enhanced strength, which he might survive like Shin survived Sakura's punch, and since he's a medical ninja he could recover while Tsunade is also healing herself, or she could use the body disturbance technique to buy herself time to heal her respiratory muscles.  She opts for the latter. 

Really?

She then punches him two pages later, with another lack luster punch, signifying that it was a natural strength punch. At this point in the fight, Tsunade thinks Kabuto is beat, so there was no need to waste chakra on a chakra enhanced punch. She didn't think he would be able to figure out how to move.

Really?

The next page she begins to heal herself. 

Really?

And then she says "Damn, healing would consume too much chakra". Another piece of evidence showing she's trying to conserve chakra in her fight with Kabuto. This, coupled with the damage her punches did before and after she got her muscles fucked, and the fact that fucked up muscles doesn't effect your chakra, indicates she was fighting Kabuto with her natural strength. 





> Wasn't her in danger and needed an inmediate escape? I don't recall much of that fight, and i cannot look for it right now, could you please link me there?



Why would a risky paper bomb be more immediate then chakra enhanced strength to rip through the ropes?

Really?

Start reading from here. 






[/QUOTE]How do you know it was big-ass rock? I mean, i give you the point that it's not comparable a hollow log with a rock, but the sizes doesn't look to different, and i never said lift the rocks. But we have two stronger shinobis than Sakura there. How couldn't they even lift it barely?[/QUOTE]

Really?

This rock is pretty huge. We never got a pan out shot, though, but I still think it's the same size as the hollow log. Common sense dictates that a giant boulder is heavier than a giant hollow log.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> That's the funny part. When ti comes to Gai, everything for you is exaggerated, art error, bullshit, etc. With all respect you deserve, i severely disagree with that double standard way of seeing things.
> 
> Naruto broke his anckle just crashing slower against a wall. Gai had to move benting time and space with his body being internally destroyed to suffer from just a bit more damage than that, at insanely much more speeds.
> 
> ...


It's not a double standard at all. We all know Gai is fast, but saying he's faster than other characters because of what he does to the environment is illogical. We know that Juubi jins are faster than Gai, yet they don't create flames when they move. So unless you think Gai> Everything ever, than use his speed in comparison to other characters and not the environment.☻ There's also other problems with his "space bending feat." A) we can't label is it as solid durability feat, as no other character in the manga has been placed under that specific kind of "pressure." B) we don't know how much durability that grants Gai in kishi mind. It could be anywhere from Tsunade to PS. We don't know, so saying he's more durable for surviving a tech that doesn't hype his durability, make any sense , or can be compared to any other attack is extremely faulty. 

Naruto broke his ankle one time because he couldn't control his speed. Base Riduko Sasuke, who shouldn't actually be durable, moves at speeds faster than Red Gate Gai, yet suffers 0 damage. Speed doesn't actually define durability in this manga. That's pretty clear. So for Gai, in going off of his actual clear durability feats instead of ALL THIS SPECULATION. Such as coughing up blood from 30% Kisame or being pierced by shark teeth. 

She actually has chakra enhanced strength per OP.

Tsuande is a Senju with a 5 in the strength. She's likely a lot more powerful than kisame even without her CES. Her lifting the tanto cannot be attributed solely to CES. She had to jump, guide, and slam the Tanto down. All that couldn't have been done with only CES, and CES has never ever been used in that manner. The only reason people ever think she used CES, is because the Tanto feat was pictured in an entry where it mentioned her strength being enhanced by CES. Thats the ONLY Correlation. 

And her hits against Kabuto were without chakra or strength. Without strength because he specifically stated he cut her muscles ( getting rid of super strength). And without chakra because we know a CES punch would obliterate Kabuto. A weaker user( Sakura) was caving in cliffs with her punches, and Kabuto was outed by maybe the weakest resengan. 

Tsuande would cave in Gais chest with a punch without CES.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Why is Tsunade naturally way more powerful than Kisame again?


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

I put likely. And that's because I feel like her feats are so much better. Remember that Kisame with his heavy ass sword, was being blocked by a Fodder Frog and Asuma.

While Tsuandes Tanto feat can't possibly be 100% contributed to CES. They both however have 5's in strentgh, and have been hyped to be physical monsters( Tsunade even without CES).


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Tsunade was mentioned to have tremendous natural physical strength which is why she can crush rocks in her hand and Lifts building sized Weapons. It was noted in stark difference to Sakura, who only had CES. 

But tsunade would not kill them in one blow without her fuinjutsu or CES. A couple direct blows to the head and torso should do the trick though.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Even Kakashi would take more than one blow?


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

That was pre-retcon Kisame. Post-retcon Kisame made a mockery of Gai with 30% of his power. With all of it, he had no issues with even B's strength. Without Ōkashō, I don't think she's going to be drastically above him, if at all.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

I wonder what post-retcon tsuande could lift then. The gap would be even greater for her too considering she was actually rusty in part 1.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Even Kakashi would take more than one blow?


Tanking an ST that uprooted part of a city block, and buried him in rubble is enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. Gai obviously takes more hits than kakashi even f by one or two.



Rocky said:


> That was pre-retcon Kisame. Post-retcon Kisame made a mockery of Gai with 30% of his power. With all of it, he had no issues with even B's strength. Without Ōkashō, I don't think she's going to be drastically above him, if at all.


Kisame's strength was not diluted as a result Peins jutsu. He literally morphed people into them an then gave them a % of Itachi.Kisame's chakra respectively. 30% chakra was just much more for Kisame than Itachi given their base pool. But the physicality was exactly the same, it wasn't a clone.

I'm not even sure if shadow clones are debilitated physically either tbh.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Having 30% of your chakra flowing through you is probably going to lower your physical capabilities. Imagine if the real Kisame fatigued himself to a point where he only had around a third of his strength left. His speed, strength, and durability are all going to be lower than if he were fresh. It's the opposite of the Gates, actually. After a good night's sleep, Gai would have 100% of his chakra. If he then opens the seventh gate, he'd be sitting at like 100,000% chakra, which is why his speed, power, and toughness all jump to astronomical levels.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Having 30% of your chakra flowing through you is probably going to lower your physical capabilities. Imagine if the real Kisame fatigued himself to a point where he only had around a third of his strength left.


No it's not and that isn't comparable. Kisame's strength is purely his own, and nothing to do with chakra. Only person that applies to is people who use modes, or CES. 

Real Kisame having 30% of his chakra is completely different than physical clone being born with 30% capacity of his chakra. The former has lost 70% of his chakra during battle, the latter only has 30% of the originals chakra in the first place as his 100% mark. Since Kisame's strength functions as a result of his physicality and not his chakra, then it stands to reason his clone was now weaker than the original.



> His speed,


Shushin speed maybe.



> strength, are all going to be lower than if he were fresh.


Fatigue and chakra drain are two different things. Tsunade being tired had nothing to dow ith her physical strength. She could still make craters with punches and lift building sized swords. howver chakra drain may have mitigated the effectiveness of CES boost.

Unless someone is completely stamina (not chakra) drained there is only going to be a marginal difference in physicality, which is why Pro athletes can still be in great shape during the 4th quarter of games and still perform brilliantly (assuming in good shape), and why strongmen can go through rounds upon rounds of lifting before being unable to lift in their max range.


> It's the opposite of the Gates, actually. After a good night's sleep, Gai would have 100% of his chakra. If he then opens the seventh gate, he'd be sitting at like 100,000% chakra, which is why his speed, power, and toughness all jump to astronomical levels.


Gai is not doing all of that just because of chakra. His body is literally surpassing it's inherent self safety limits in order to temporarily push it's limit at the cost of physical harm. Everyone has gates, which is why you don't need an specially high chakra pool or the ability to cast jutsu to use them.


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## Santoryu (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Tanking an ST that uprooted part of a city block, and buried him in rubble is enough for me to give him the benefit of the doubt. Gai obviously takes more hits than kakashi even f by one or two.



Just to add to this, Kakashi also tanked the following attack and fought on shortly afterwards:

Really?


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## Saru (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kunai aren't lopping her limbs.




I like how every time I mention Sakumo's tantō or Kubikiribōchō, people try to belittle my argument by comparing these weapons to a kunai.




> Tsunade didn't get her arms cut of by Susano blades or Kusunagi, either because they can't, or she wouldn't let them.






She got impaled by _several_ swords while fighting Madara and only survived because of Byakugou (which she doesn't have here). 




Here's a possibility--the clones weren't aiming for her arms. 

Here's another possibility--she did get her arm torn off in combat but regenerated.

Here's another possibility--Madara was just toying with the Gokage and was killing Tsunade over and over again for pleasure.

If we can use off-panel feats and make inferences about what happened, can I talk about how Kakashi wielded Kubikiribōchō for hours and went Cloud Strife on the Edo Tensei?


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Was there some special attribute to Sakumo's tantō besides being shiny?


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Was there some special attribute to Sakumo's tantō besides being shiny?



White Light Chakra that came from it. Given it's the only special attribute we know of his fighting style/ that Kakashi inherited (Sakumo was famed >= Sannin) it's safe to say it's pretty potent.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Kisame's strength is purely his own, and nothing to do with chakra. Only person that applies to is people who use modes, or CES.



"Modes" are usually the result of a shinobi using large amounts of higher quality chakra. When Naruto flowed the Nine-Tails Chakra throughout his body as opposed to his own, his physical attributes shot through the roof. Wonder why...



> Fatigue and chakra drain are two different things.



They're directly related. Neji _poked_ Naruto a bunch of times and didn't expect him to have the energy to even stand. 



Dr. White said:


> Unless someone is completely stamina (not chakra) drained there is only going to be a marginal difference in physicality



Okay..._technically_ yes, there's a difference. Stamina is the combination of physical & spiritual energies while Chakra is moulded only for ninjutsu & genjutsu. However, the story never made an effort to be consistent with that. A ninja's chakra is his life (physical & mental) energy. The Kisame that fought Gai was at 30% of his "stamina" (chakra).   



Dr. White said:


> Gai is not doing all of that just because of chakra.



The gates are special tenketsu that regulate the amount of chakra flowing through the body at any given time. When you open a gate, the chakra in the body increases. When you open seven, it increases a fuck ton.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> "Modes" are usually the result of a shinobi using large amounts of higher quality chakra. When Naruto flowed the Nine-Tails Chakra throughout his body as opposed to his own, his physical attributes shot through the roof. Wonder why...


False equivocation. Not all modes have the same quality, or due the same things. RCM increases speed and reactions, but it doesn't directly increase the users physical strength, stamina, etc. Sage and Bjuu modes are all around increases because of the special quality of their chakra, and the ability to be applied in a mode when said benefits occur. Tsunade is an example of someone who can store a ton of her own chakra, and use it for later, and you don't see her turning into the flash, or gaining any strength she didn't have before outside of CES. She gains more chakra to put into Bya, and CES (and one could argue shushin).

Kisame doesn't have a mode, he just is physically strong as fuck, and has a large natural reserve like Jiraiya. 





> They're directly related. Neji _poked_ Naruto a bunch of times and didn't expect him to have the energy to even stand.


They are but they aren't the same thing. Shikamaru stated in pt. 1 that you can convert stamina into chakra, but they aren't the same thing. 




> Okay..._technically_ yes, there's a difference. Stamina is the combination of physical & spiritual energies while Chakra is moulded only for ninjutsu & genjutsu. However, the story never made an effort to be consistent with that. A ninja's chakra is his life (physical & mental) energy. The Kisame that fought Gai was at 30% of his "stamina" (chakra).


See above.

No. The clone was an exact physical copy of him (it literally copied Kekkai Genkai and his weapon), with 30% of the pool. I just explained why that is different than the real Kisame being at 30%. The clone only had 30% of Ksiame's "stamina" in so much as his pool of chakra, not ability to use muscle mass, or any other purely physical factor of combat.





> The gates are special tenketsu that regulate the amount of chakra flowing through the body at any given time. When you open a gate, the chakra in the body increases. When you open seven, it increases a fuck ton.


They also regulate physical body potential. !st gate releases 100% limit on muscles, and then Gates chakra removes chakra limiting barriers. Chakra isn't causing the muscles to snap in a gates users, it's straining the body, this is a canonical fact. Chakra may boost the quality of the body's limit every subsequent gate, but it's not all chakra responsible for the mode.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> False equivocation. Not all modes have the same quality, or due the same things.



I said "usually," so it isn't a false equivocation. You brought up exceptions. 


Raiton Chakra Mode is the result of A using Nature Transformation to alter the characteristics of his chakra. The quantity & quality of his chakra is unaffected.  
Creation Rebirth seeks out any injuries & fixes them. Unneeded chakra remains in the seal. This chakra does not flood her chakra network all at once. The Eight Gates wouldn't allow for that to happen.



Dr. White said:


> They are but they aren't the same thing.



Tell me the difference then.



Dr. White said:


> The clone only had 30% of Ksiame's "stamina" in so much as his pool of chakra, not ability to use muscle mass, or any other purely physical factor of combat.



_There's no such thing_ as a "purely physical factor of combat." It's all related to Chakra. If I took all of Kisame's Chakra from him, he wouldn't be as physically strong. Actually, he wouldn't even be able to lift Samehada...or a Kunai...or move at all, because he would look like this:





Dr. White said:


> They also regulate physical body potential.



The gates are part of the chakra pathway system. They serve no purpose other than to regulate the amount of chakra flowing through said system. When more-than-normally-possible amounts of chakra are allowed into it, the body works way harder than it should, gaining tremendous power but destroying itself in the process.


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## Bringer (Jan 28, 2016)

So if Naruto makes one shadow clone dividing his chakra evenly into 50% and 50% does Naruto's speed and strength drop?


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Um, yeah. Why do you think Minato & Tobirama said that their clones would be too slow to use the Ftg Swap technique?


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> I said "usually," so it isn't a false equivocation. You brought up exceptions.
> 
> 
> Raiton Chakra Mode is the result of A using Nature Transformation to alter the characteristics of his chakra. The quantity & quality of his chakra is unaffected.
> Creation Rebirth seeks out any injuries & fixes them. Unneeded chakra remains in the seal. This chakra does not flood her chakra network all at once. The Eight Gates wouldn't allow for that to happen.


Yin Seal amps Tsunade by giving her access to a shitload of chakra it isn't explicitly only for Byakugou, she can just choose if she wants it to go there, and then it's automatic. She is still flooded with chakra, and gets no boost to her stats. We know if floods her with chakra because Sakura used the same seal to give tremdnous amounts of chakra to Obito, none of which would amp his physical skills to higher limits.



> Tell me the difference then.


Stamina = ATP on a microlevel, and general conditioning/body condition on a marcoscale. Chakra is related to stamina, but it's not the same. Draining chakra also drains the life force for some reason, don't ask why. but if you can turn stmina into chakra they are inherently different. It doesn't take chakra to move your arm up and down, but it does take energy from the body. 

Stamina in a general sense can be used to signify a characters overall conditioning/chakra resserves but I explicitly am not using the version to prove my point.




> _There's no such thing_ as a "purely physical factor of combat." It's all related to Chakra.


Related not dependant. Moving your arms is not chakra, feeding your body's energy for function is not chakra dependant, although it can be (see Obito and yang chakra enhancements.). That doesn't make them equal in every sense. 



> If I took all of Kisame's Chakra from him, he wouldn't be as physically strong. Actually, he wouldn't even be able to lift Samehada...or a Kunai...or move at all, because he would look like this:


No. 

Kisame's strength comes from his muscles. His physical body.

*Beaten up Kisame who just wasted a ton of chakra, and got hit with AT, was able to bust out of Mokuton binds with no leverage.* That is how physically strong he is. His strength is not amped by chakra.

You are trying to use extremes to hurt my argument. There is a relationship between stamina and chakra, and draining chakra can lead to death. If someone is drained of all their energy then obviously yeah they can't punch. If I meet someone after a triathalon, they will be spent. Kisame's clone has the same physicality, and a full tank of chakra that's all that matters. There strength is the same.

Unless Kisame is using CES, or some mode I'm unaware of.



> The gates are part of the chakra pathway system. They serve no purpose other than to regulate the amount of chakra flowing through said system. When more-than-normally-possible amounts of chakra are allowed into it, the body works way harder than it should, gaining tremendous power but destroying itself in the process.


[/QUOTE]
You keep naming one function as the only function. That's canonically not the case. The gates are based on the myth of not using all the bodies potential. The "gates" act as the barriers from the body using that amount of chakra, and flexing it's natural potential as such in a short time period (instead of the combined energy usually used over a lifetime).


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> So if Naruto makes one shadow clone dividing his chakra evenly into 50% and 50% does Naruto's speed and strength drop?



Shadow Clone =/ Shape shifting Copy.

I also see no proof for KB's having dissimilar physical stats.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Shadow clone strentgh is based solely on plot. Its the reason naruto can create 13 Kage level clones, but in Part 1 a hoarde of his clones were getting manhandled by Sasuke on the roof top.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> She is still flooded with chakra, and gets no boost to her stats.



Like I said, it doesn't flood her body all at once. If the chakra did that, it would either be stopped by the eight gates, or it would bust through the eight gates and send her into the extreme lotus. We know that doesn't happen. When Tsunade taps into that seal, she's only moulding a portion of its storage for a specific technique. 



Dr. White said:


> Moving your arms is not chakra, feeding your body's energy for function is not chakra dependant...



All of that requires chakra. _Living_ requires chakra.



Dr. White said:


> It doesn't take chakra to move your arm up and down, but it does take energy from the body.



That "energy" from the body is chakra. 

Just go reread the God Tree chapters. 



Dr. White said:


> Kisame's strength comes from his muscles. His physical body.





See how that guy looks like a skeleton? You know what happened to that guy? The Shinju stole his _chakra._ 



Dr. White said:


> Kisame's clone has the same physicality, and a full tank of chakra that's all that matters.



Kisame's "physicality" is a product of his chakra. Refer to the above scan of the man losing his muscle mass when his chakra was drained. 



Dr. White said:


> The "gates" act as the barriers from the body using that amount of chakra, and flexing it's natural potential as such in a short time period (instead of the combined energy usually used over a lifetime).



Yeah, in a sense. When Gai opened the 8th Gate, he had his entire lifetime's worth of chakra flowing through his body. I don't know how that contradicts what I said. The chakra is the reason for that power, or so Kakashi says. [1]


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

By the way Dr. White, I don't even blame you for disagreeing with me. I'm going through different scans from different points in the manga, and the only surefire conclusion that I've reached thus far is that chakra makes no sense.


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## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

Kisame's clone is different than Kage Bunshin, IMO, so I would hold it to different standards.  It is a Rinnegan powered technique that uses a _real person_ (like Edo Tensei) to emulate the desired fighter's skills and appearance, not to mention the aforementioned fighters sitting immobile in concentration to control the clone.

If Itachi was physically three times weaker, slower, and less skilled, Kakashi would have taken note of it beyond just wondering why his Katon was "off" (probably referring to it being slightly smaller than it should have been).  He wouldn't have been keeping up with a guy he basically had equal physical stats to either.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Like I said, it doesn't flood her body all at once. If the chakra did that, it would either be stopped by the eight gates, or it would bust through the eight gates and send her into the extreme lotus.


No. this is the reason I brought up the body potential thing. Tsunade can have it flood her body all at once and just not use it via moulding and casting. Kisame, Naruto, Nagato, Madara, Hashirama, all have obscenely high chakra pools, yet don't break gates....
You have to take your body limiters to activate gates, not just contain a ton of chakra.



> We know that doesn't happen. When Tsunade taps into that seal, she's only moulding a portion of its storage for a specific technique.


When her seal is active she is faciliating chakra from the seal, which is why she could abuse healing and run around with Susano swords inside of her while smacking Madara clones.




> All of that requires chakra. _Living_ requires chakra.


But not only chakra. Shinobi wouldn't have to breathe and eat in that case. do you know why humans breathe and eat Rocky?

Normal humans can't use their chakra in any way, but normal humans can use taijutsu...




> That "energy" from the body is chakra.


Ok but you are absuing the Ki like concept and trying to apply it to something like strength. Ki can enhance strength, but that doesn't mean your strength comes from your Ki. Kisame does not use his chakra to amp his base strength, so therefore an exact physical copy is going to have his same stats it's very simple.

If someone used stat swap on Kisame, but had a smaller chakra pool than him (lets assume they didn't steal his chakra level) than they would punch just like Kisame. If they did the same to Tsunade without knowing how to use CES, then they couldn't punch as hard her. That is the major point here.



> See how that guy looks like a skeleton? You know what happened to that guy? The Shinju stole his _chakra._


Well chakra was a semi Ki like concept in the begining not exactly like moldable Ki. 

But once again Shikamaru makes a distinct difference between Bodily stamina and chakra. He notes if he tries to convert more stamina into chakra he'd kick the bucket.



> Kisame's "physicality" is a product of his chakra. Refer to the above scan of the man losing his muscle mass when his chakra was drained.


The Shinju probably steals all of their yang chakra, which if life force chakra. 

I already showed you Kisame in beat up conditon showing super strength.

Kisame's physical strength being chakra dependant is the same as a Konoha human in so much as his yang chakra dictates his lifeforce. rock Lee became superhuman via training, not via boosting his chakra levels, and he was much stronger than base NAruto who had natural uzumaki storage.





> Yeah, in a sense. When Gai opened the 8th Gate, he had his entire lifetime's worth of chakra flowing through his body. I don't know how that contradicts what I said. The chakra is the reason for that power, or so Kakashi says. [1]


Because you are trying to use this to necessitate a link between strength and chakra level when it's not necessarily there like i said unless there is a mode or CES involved. Tsunade gaining massive amounts of chakra doesn't bost all of her stats, Chouji's Yang chakra literally uses stored up calories for it's fuel, and even then he has to use his *body jutsu* to increase his power (while I agree BM inherently would boost his stats, it's because it's yang chakra, but then again it still is a mode). By your logic having access to the chakra alone would make him at his strongest, and "flooding his body" would push him into Lotus, which clearly doesn't happen, just like tsunade and Sakura.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

LostSelf said:


> There's the problem. There's no proof of that.



Kakashi has baseline durability.  His best feat is getting up after being cut with a shuriken and kneed in the face by Obito, but both of those did serious damage to him, and it took a Will of Fire "surpassing your limits and defying destiny," moment for him to get up.  He's a normal guy.  

Guy's best feat is getting punched by Shoten Kisame and living.  However he projectile vomited blood, which tells me he took serious damage from that.  Kakashi wouldn't survive that blow.

Both of them are largely normal people by the series standards.  Neither have a jutsu like domu, or a special body, or a lineage like the Uzumaki or Senju or Ei family, and they go out of their way to avoid taking any hits whatsoever.  Guy was desperate not to let that fodder water shark bite him.  He didn't just let it break it's teeth on his "steel like body."  Meanwhile, KCM Naruto blocks swords with his bare arms.  

Even if we take the lowest end feats of the Magatama, and use reasoning I don't support to make them comparable to the exploding tags that blew limbs of P1 Edo Kage, I don't have any reason to believe Kakashi wouldn't get his his limbs blown off by them, and many reasons to believe he does.  If Kakashi took two explosions to the body and one to the head, he would be dead.  Guy would be very messed up, because Kisame likely doesn't punch harder than your average explosion.  (Though if he can overpower Guy, he can likely rip off limbs like a Wookie.)  Even then, we have an Uzumaki like Pain getting his legs forever destroyed by tags, so even if we bumped them to the next tier of durability, they would still be dead or near dead.  (I have Guy right below that special body tier, because you can't train yourself beyond your genetic capabilities.  AKA you can't train yourself to get a body like Ei or Kimimaro when you started out as Sakura, as shown by Orochimaru desiring new more powerful bodies to handle Sage Mode.  But you can get your body to it's natural peak, which will be close to the next tier.)  That's a lot of proof of them being closer to the normal than the exceptional.  It's like you think I base my opinions on nothing.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Jad said:


> I believe you when you say and believe she can tank Evening Elephant, at least to live through it enough to regenerate. With that sought of belief, there really isn't anyway to make an argument that Gai could beat Tsunade that would even come close to making you think twice. It makes sense that Gai won't beat Tsunade with that mindset you believe. Hence why I think you've gone too far with that belief.



There are arguments, you're just not making them.  I already gave you a hint as to how, and in fact, right after I gave you an outline as to how you could potentially do it, that's entirely dependent on the results of the study.  Instead you're talking about how many spins a magatama made in a non-canon anime.  Certainly, the sort of arguments you're making will likely never convince me, and if you think it's "too far," simply because I'm never going to be convinced by arguments like, "Guy is based on Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan so he's the best," then one could rightly argue your beliefs have gone too far.

The reason I never went through with the study is that 1.  It would take a lot of work.  2.  There would be no real benefit to me. 3.  The manga is likely too inconsistent to give conclusive or non-contradictory results.  I can't simply take your work for it, because you've been arguing that any form of Guy beats any form of Tsunade since the dawn of time.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Kakashi has baseline durability.  His best feat is getting up after being cut with a shuriken and kneed in the face by Obito, but both of those did serious damage to him, and it took a Will of Fire "surpassing your limits and defying destiny," moment for him to get up.  He's a normal guy.
> 
> Guy's best feat is getting punched by Shoten Kisame and living.  However he projectile vomited blood, which tells me he took serious damage from that.  Kakashi wouldn't survive that blow.
> 
> ...



Gai got hit so hard by Kisame that he sunk deep into the ocean . Do you know much force is needed to send an object with a punch so deep into the ocean? Gai and Kisame clashing literally erupted an explosion of water. That's how strong Kisame is, and the fact Gai got away with some coughed up blood like it was nothing afterwards is telling.

By war arc, Gai survived an explosion the size of 10%. Katsuya point blank in the face and only needed a 10 second breather. Add durabitly likened to steel.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

No, Kakashi's best durability feat is tanking Shinra Tensei that cleared all buildings from the surrounding area (including his own Doton wall) and could create respectably sized craters.  He took two and them and could still get up and continue fighting.  This is also noteworthy.  

It would be like me trying to say that "because Kakashi tanked an attack that could create a crater this big, he could tank Tsunade's punches that created comparable (if not smaller) craters.  It took three Shinra Tensei to incapacitate him in addition to extended combat, and he still squeezed out a final Kamui.

But I'm not going to say something like that because Kakashi, just like Tsunade, has never been noted for durability and thus I have no reason to believe Kakashi can survive Tsunade's punches anymore so than I have reason to believe kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> I like how every time I mention Sakumo's tantō or Kubikiribōchō, people try to belittle my argument by comparing these weapons to a kunai.



Sakumo's tanto is disappointing.  Look at what it actually did when it slashed the Iwa guys, even with an undefended surprise full powered hit.  -very little.  I would have thought it more lethal given it's hype.  Zabuza's sword is also big, but not particularly special.  It slashed people right good, but it could still be cut in half and broken by flowed weapons, and blocked with kunai from physically inferior people.  Neither of them gut up to Orochimaru's kusunagi, which actually hurt Enma, and cut into his adamantine skin, butonlyput flesh wounds on Tsunade until the stab. I apologize if my phrasing came off as disingenuous.  



Rocky said:


> That was pre-retcon Kisame. Post-retcon Kisame made a mockery of Gai with 30% of his power. With all of it, he had no issues with even B's strength. Without Ōkashō, I don't think she's going to be drastically above him, if at all.



Pre-retcon Kisame still pushed back Asuma with little effort, and Asuma's pretty powerful himself.


----------



## Santoryu (Jan 28, 2016)

You mean the Kakashi that was bleeding, exhausted, and almost out of chakra before Obito even sliced him? And the fact that he had absolutely no intention of fighting back.....

Yes, that Kakashi was stabbed once in the leg by a giant shuriken here, used a kamui here despite collapsing before, then kneed and stabbed here
, sliced here. Yeah.


----------



## ThatGreekLady (Jan 28, 2016)

They might be too fast for her, I think.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> No, Kakashi's best durability feat is tanking Shinra Tensei that cleared all buildings from the surrounding area (including his own Doton wall) and could create respectably sized craters.  He took two and them and could still get up and continue fighting.  This is also noteworthy.
> 
> It would be like me trying to say that "because Kakashi tanked an attack that could create a crater this big, he could tank Tsunade's punches that created comparable (if not smaller) craters.  It took three Shinra Tensei to incapacitate him in addition to extended combat, and he still squeezed out a final Kamui.
> 
> But I'm not going to say something like that because Kakashi, just like Tsunade, has never been noted for durability and thus I have no reason to believe Kakashi can survive Tsunade's punches anymore so than I have reason to believe kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck.



I thought about those.  But I think ST's influence on an object is dependent on it's weight and size, and I didn't want to use evidence in a way I don't believe to convince others.  

I discount the tree a bit because it's dead, and would produce a much larger and dustier explosion on impact than I would otherwise credit.  ...even though ninjas are commonly highly destructive to the environment they collide with.  It's still good because the kick was strong and solid, and better than Obito's knee, but not the shuriken slashes on account of slash damage being more valued than blunt force.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Jad said:


> Gai got hit so hard by Kisame that he sunk deep into the ocean . Do you know much force is needed to send an object with a punch so deep into the ocean? Gai and Kisame clashing literally erupted an explosion of water. That's how strong Kisame is, and the fact Gai got away with some coughed up blood like it was nothing afterwards is telling.
> 
> By war arc, Gai survived an explosion the size of 10%. Katsuya point blank in the face and only needed a 10 second breather. Add durabitly likened to steel.



Getting knocked by dozens of feet is common.  Sasuke got dunked by KN0, and he was fine too.  What's important to me is that he spit blood, because it shows the ninja took real damage.

Explosives also cause explosions of water.  They do it better.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> No, Kakashi's best durability feat is tanking Shinra Tensei that cleared all buildings from the surrounding area (including his own Doton wall) and could create respectably sized craters.  He took two and them and could still get up and continue fighting.  This is also noteworthy.
> 
> It would be like me trying to say that "because Kakashi tanked an attack that could create a crater this big, he could tank Tsunade's punches that created comparable (if not smaller) craters.  It took three Shinra Tensei to incapacitate him in addition to extended combat, and he still squeezed out a final Kamui.
> 
> But I'm not going to say something like that because Kakashi, just like Tsunade, has never been noted for durability and thus I have no reason to believe Kakashi can survive Tsunade's punches anymore so than I have reason to believe kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck.



Or crater size isn't completely relative in this manga - there are several examples. Kishi isn't really going to scale all attacks perfectly because that's illogical given the amount of detail he would have to apply to illustration ad opposed to the story. You can get an idea though.

Tsunade does have more than one feat in different parts of the manga where her durability was proven. Kakashi, on the other hand , has that single feat and absolutely nothing else that would imply he was durable. Tsuande just happens to be a Senju/Uzumaki, apart of 2 different clans hyped to have insane bodies. I mean all the senju were hyped to have very impressive bodies. And unlike the previous hokage, tsuande works directly on her body.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Santoryu said:


> You mean the Kakashi that was bleeding, exhausted, and almost out of chakra before Obito even sliced him? And the fact that he had absolutely no intention of fighting back.....
> 
> Yes, that Kakashi was stabbed once in the leg by a giant shuriken here, used a kamui here despite collapsing before, then kneed and stabbed here
> , sliced here. Yeah.



It's his best durability feat precisely because he took a lot of damage in a bad position without defending himself, and still functioned afterwards.  Yes.


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## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

It still struck Kakashi with enough force to create a crater larger than what Tsunade's punches did against P1 Kabuto.  And the Kakuzu scan was multiple trees, not just one.  Getting kicked through multiple giant trees, surviving two city-block level Shinra Tensei, and surviving a crater-creating Shinra Tensei are _several_ feats - not just one.

I'm not "using evidence in a way I don't believe in order to convince others" because I'm not actually trying to use those scans to claim that Kakashi is a durability monster that can tank Tsunade's punches [or the hits of any other acclaimed physical ninja].  What I _am_ claiming, however, is that all the arguments that I've seen used here to try and paint Tsunade as a durability freak are of the same nature as the hypothetical argument one would make that Kakashi is one as well.

I don't think swords and kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck for the same reason I don't think Kakashi will survive hits from the likes of Raikage and Tsunade.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Kusanagi didn't seem to penetrate Enma.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

You know how hard Enma is suppose to be??


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> You know how hard Enma is suppose to be??



I wasn't implying that Kusanagi was weak, I was replying to POW's claim that Kusanagi cut Enma.

Kusanagi wasn't even able to pierce KN4 Naruto, Enma's too durable.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

> I'm not "using evidence in a way I don't believe in order to convince others" because I'm not actually claiming that Kakashi can tank Tsunade's punches.



No no, I'm not accusing you of doing that.  I was explaining the reason that _I_ didn't use those feats is in accordance with my personal beliefs.  If you say that ST or the treekick was his best durability feat, and you believe that, that's honest and I encourage you to do so.  

I don't for the reasons I mentioned, so if I brought them out and said I thought they were his best feats, I would be claiming something I don't believe - though I'd likely more convincing, and I'd do it in a KC match.  (Because winning.)


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Getting knocked by dozens of feet is common.  Sasuke got dunked by KN0, and he was fine too.  What's important to me is that he spit blood, because it shows the ninja took real damage.
> 
> Explosives also cause explosions of water.  They do it better.



Can't understand if you are saying Kisame as strong as KN0 Naruto.

However Gai still has that explosion feat he withstood with only a busted rib.


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## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Kusanagi didn't seem to penetrate Enma.



multiple trees

I think Enma's hand was cut.  However you could argue that it's all Sarutobi's blood.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> multiple trees
> 
> I think Enma's hand was cut.  However you could argue that it's all Sarutobi's blood.



Doesn't matter either way since Enma doesn't maintain the property of adamantine when he's not in his staff form.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> multiple trees
> 
> I think Enma's hand was cut.  However you could argue that it's all Sarutobi's blood.



Clearly Sarutobi's blood. You're reaching in my opinion.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

It's entirely possible that Enma's hand got cut by that sword, he did grip onto it in order to try and stop it from stabbing Hiruzen. We don't know for sure, either way it doesn't matter.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> No, Kakashi's best durability feat is tanking Shinra Tensei that cleared all buildings from the surrounding area (including his own Doton wall) and could create respectably sized craters.  He took two and them and could still get up and continue fighting.  This is also noteworthy.
> 
> It would be like me trying to say that "because Kakashi tanked an attack that could create a crater this big, he could tank Tsunade's punches that created comparable (if not smaller) craters.  It took three Shinra Tensei to incapacitate him in addition to extended combat, and he still squeezed out a final Kamui.
> 
> But I'm not going to say something like that because Kakashi, just like Tsunade, has never been noted for durability and thus I have no reason to believe Kakashi can survive Tsunade's punches anymore so than I have reason to believe kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck.



I don't think crater size should be taken seriously. There are several examples of it being outright illogical, and that's due to retcon + kishi paying note attention to the story instead of perfect illustration detail. Though it does give you a better understanding.

However I tend to favor Tsuande more via the amount of durability feats she has over different time periods. Kakashis only valid durability feat is that ST feat, so I pretty much call it an outlier but we can disagree on that. Tsuande also is Uzumaki/Senju both who are known for having above average bodies. Senju specifically are said to have insane bodies, and unlike the previous Hokage, Tsunade is known for focusing on her strong body.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> It's entirely possible that Enma's hand got cut by that sword, he did grip onto it in order to try and stop it from stabbing Hiruzen. We don't know for sure, either way it doesn't matter.



No blood came from his hand the moment he caught the blade 

comparable (if not smaller) craters

What you say is also true. Sought of weird to conclude Enma outside of staff form still retains his diamond durability.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

@Likes boss

I wouldn't call it an outlier since he took multiple STs to go down.

@Jad

Blood could have emerged as he gripped harder.


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## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

It wasn't just one ST feat, though . . . it was more like two.  Three, if you count the last one that he _still survived_, but got incapacitated by, and across several chapters.  And the Kakuzu one as well, where he got kicked several meters through several massive trees.  Hashirama was going to kill himself via kunai, and he was _the_ Senju. 

The arguments I see for Tsunade's durability are the Mabui transport technique and the Magatama technique.  In both occasions, her survival was very clearly and blatantly associated with her regeneration, not her "durability."  Nobody said anything about tough skin or a strong body . . . only comments about her S-ranked medical jutsu.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> It wasn't just one ST feat, though . . . it was more like two.  Three, if you count the last one that he _still survived_, but got incapacitated by, and across several chapters.  And the Kakuzu one as well, where he got kicked several meters through several massive trees.  Hashirama was going to kill himself via kunai, and he was _the_ Senju.
> 
> The arguments I see for Tsunade's durability are the Mabui transport technique and the Magatama technique.  In both occasions, her survival was very clearly and blatantly associated with her regeneration, not her "durability."  Nobody said anything about tough skin or a strong body . . . only comments about her S-ranked medical jutsu.



Even if Hashirama was insanely durable, he could bypass that by stabbing himself with strength that exceeds his own durability.

Magatama didn't seem to leave any visible damage though, I don't think the damage would have been healed before we got a chance to see it. I don't take the teleportation feat seriously since we don't know how it works, it can transport objects without a scratch but the same logic doesn't apply to humans for some reason.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> It still struck Kakashi with enough force to create a crater larger than what Tsunade's punches did against P1 Kabuto.



_It doesn't look larger_.

Comparing Shinra Tensei to a strike with a body part that results in a crater of the same size would be like comparing pushing on the larger and rounded point of a pen against a wall to pushing it up against that wall by the narrowed tip.



> And the Kakuzu scan was multiple trees, not just one.



That's the same hollow, dried out tree. It toppled forward. If you couldn't tell looking at that picture, you should be able to tell from the fact that that space was clear prior and when Hidan is like "let's get to it already" there's suddenly a tree lying down not far off from them.


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## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:
			
		

> Kisame does not use his chakra to amp his base strength



I'm going to have to postpone this debate. Let me tell you why.

Hagoromo spread chakra to the masses when practicing ninshū. He wished for people to use chakra to connect their spiritual energies (whatever that means). People didn't listen to Hagoromo and instead used chakra to connect their inner spiritual & physical energies, creating...chakra.



You see, according to Ebisu and Fukusaku, chakra is created when Shinobi mix spiritual & physical energies.





Makes sense. Spirit Energy & Body Energy are known as "Stamina." Those two energies being kneaded into one creates a new energy known as "Chakra." Spirit Energy + Body Energy = Chakra. Nice & eas...


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

In the Viz Kisame says the Shōten versions were affected _"in strength *and* in the Jutsu they use"_.

Kakashi also noticed something was off, which might be related.


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## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> _It doesn't look larger_.



It's the same size or larger.  I literally linked to that Tsunade scan in my previous post so I'm not sure why you're relinking me to my own link.  The point is, it's comparable.  Kakashi was lunging at Pain face first, so the Shinra Tensei was not geared towards Kakashi's entire body as his entire body hadn't even re-emerged from the ground at that point.




			
				Itachi said:
			
		

> Magatama didn't seem to leave any visible damage though, I don't think the damage would have been healed before we got a chance to see it. I don't take the teleportation feat seriously since we don't know how it works, it can transport objects without a scratch but the same logic doesn't apply to humans for some reason.



A sword injury that entered one side of her body and exited on the other was practically done healing by then, so I have no issue with a weaker Magatama that probably dealt far less damage than that sword wound being healed off panel.  And Madara on the next panel notes restoration abilities, not durability.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> It wasn't just one ST feat, though . . . it was more like two.  Three, if you count the last one that he _still survived_, but got incapacitated by, and across several chapters.  And the Kakuzu one as well, where he got kicked several meters through several massive trees.  Hashirama was going to kill himself via kunai, and he was _the_ Senju.
> 
> The arguments I see for Tsunade's durability are the Mabui transport technique and the Magatama technique.  In both occasions, her survival was very clearly and blatantly associated with her regeneration, not her "durability."  Nobody said anything about tough skin or a strong body . . . only comments about her S-ranked medical jutsu.


ST's damage fluctuates drastically. From not damaging kakashi, to soloing the whole Game Trio. That's honestly my only problem with those feats. The kakuzu feat was against dying hollow trees so idk how credible that is, when PTS sasuke is slammed into solid rock and is still trucking. Hashirama has chakra flow, and probably enough physical strentgh to overpower Sage Naruto - so that feat kinda say ehhhh.

- The Mabui technique is really based on your interpretation, so I completely understand why someone wouldn't grant tsuande super durability based on that.

- The Mata feat, however , is solid. She should at least gain some points for that, considering the damage from magamata is consistent.

- Tsunade also has her feats against Oros diamond stinging sword. Sasukes inferior sword was cutting right through Danzo in the same fashion:  practically done healing

But I've already stated that my main argument for tsunade being durable is her lineage. It's kinda Kishis fault that he retconned the Senju into physical gods.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

What feats does Tsunade have against Kusanagi? She never resisted getting stabbed or cut.



Yoko said:


> A sword injury that entered one side of her body and exited on the other was practically done healing by then, so I have no issue with a weaker Magatama that probably dealt far less damage than that sword wound being healed off panel.  And Madara on the next panel notes restoration abilities, not durability.



That's true actually.

Madara could have been referring to her healing the stab wound, he did say it like two panels after she was shown healing it.


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## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

As far as Madara is concerned, I feel that if Kishimoto wanted to highlight durability he would've given mention of her Senju body at that point.  He didn't - he just associated it with Byakugo instead.  There is a trend when we're shown highly durable characters, and the reason for their durability is always highlighted.

Kimimaro's bones were noted for his survival of sand burials.  Kakuzu's Domu being diamond-level was noted for his survival of Choji's hits.  The Raikage's iron blood and Raiton shroud were the reason they could tank Chidori's and survive teleportation without a scratch.  Tsunade is noted for healing.  If she had durability, her Senju body could've easily been highlighted for it, but it was never emphasized or even noted, despite situations where it would've been appropriate.

I'm fine with people accepting and using those Tsunade feats, but I feel that they're manufacturing a durability level that she isn't intended to have, just like if I were to go around saying Kakashi could survive direct hits from Tsunade based on his survival of multiple Shinra Tensei (which I obviously don't believe).  I don't believe Kakashi can survive hits from Tsunade, and I also don't think kunai and swords will just bounce off Tsunade's skin.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What feats does Tsunade have against Kusanagi? She never resisted getting stabbed or cut.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She was cut in the same fashion as Danzo, yet was dealt ALOT less damage. Shes a lot more durable than Danzo for sure, not like Danzo is impressive durability wise, but he is enhanced via Hashirama cells.


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## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> She was cut in the same fashion as Danzo, yet was dealt ALOT less damage. Shes a lot more durable than Danzo for sure, not like Danzo is impressive durability wise, but he is enhanced via Hashirama cells.



I don't know if you're referencing a different situation but all I remember is Orochimaru trying to slash an unconscious Naruto on the floor and Tsunade getting in the way while receiving the appropriate wounds.



Yoko said:


> As far as Madara is concerned, I feel that if Kishimoto wanted to highlight durability he would've given mention of her Senju body at that point.  He didn't - he just associated it with Byakugo instead.  There is a trend when we're shown highly durable characters, and the reason for their durability is always highlighted.
> 
> Kimimaro's bones were noted for his survival of sand burials.  Kakuzu's Domu being diamond-level was noted for his survival of Choji's hits.  The Raikage's iron blood and Raiton shroud were the reason they could tank Chidori's and survive teleportation without a scratch.  Tsunade is noted for healing.  If she had durability, her Senju body could've easily been highlighted for it, but it was never emphasized or even noted, even when it would've been appropriate.
> 
> I'm fine with people accepting and using those Tsunade feats, but I feel that they're manufacturing a durability level that she isn't intended to have, just like if I were to go around saying Kakashi could survive direct hits from Tsunade based on his survival of multiple Shinra Tensei (which I obviously don't believe).



I agree. To me, Tsunade's good because she can _take_ hits, not because she resists them.


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## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> Kakashi was lunging at Pain so the Shinra Tensei was not geared towards Kakashi's entire body as his entire body hadn't even re-emerged from the ground at that point.



That doesn't change the fact that Shinra Tensei is a spread out force while a strike from Tsunade is much more focused, so the crater sizes being similar wouldn't mean that because a character took that former attack they could withstand the latter.

It's still a durability feat though, with or without some kindergarten teacher walking on-panel and saying _"okay readers, this one counts"_.


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## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

practically done healing
 practically done healing


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> As far as Madara is concerned, I feel that if Kishimoto wanted to highlight durability he would've given mention of her Senju body at that point.  He didn't - he just associated it with Byakugo instead.  There is a trend when we're shown highly durable characters, and the reason for their durability is always highlighted.
> 
> Kimimaro's bones were noted for his survival of sand burials.  Kakuzu's Domu being diamond-level was noted for his survival of Choji's hits.  The Raikage's iron blood and Raiton shroud were the reason they could tank Chidori's and survive teleportation without a scratch.  Tsunade is noted for healing.  If she had durability, her Senju body could've easily been highlighted for it, but it was never emphasized or even noted, despite situations where it would've been appropriate.
> 
> I'm fine with people accepting and using those Tsunade feats, but I feel that they're manufacturing a durability level that she isn't intended to have, just like if I were to go around saying Kakashi could survive direct hits from Tsunade based on his survival of multiple Shinra Tensei (which I obviously don't believe).  I don't believe Kakashi can survive hits from Tsunade, and I also don't think kunai and swords will just bounce off Tsunade's skin.



The voice of reason.  You sir...

The Yasa shurikens, the one used on Tsunade is weaker than Madara stabbing with Sasuno blade. And due to the design if those particular smaller shurikens, were quite blunt. They did make Tsunade fly into a Boulder several meters l. Although a punch from Kabuto can send her flying quite far as well.


----------



## Saru (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Sakumo's tanto is disappointing.  Look at what it actually did when it slashed the Iwa guys, even with an undefended surprise full powered hit.  -very little.  I would have thought it more lethal given it's hype.




Kakashi's strength surely grew over the ten year gap. Kid Kakashi wouldn't be able to lug Kubikiribōchō around the way Kakashi did in the war. Based on the databook, Sasuke went from a 2 in strength in Part 1 to a 3.5 in strength midway through Part 2. I would say that Kakashi and Sasuke are comparable in terms of their aptitude and fighting styles, so it's very reasonable that Kakashi would be able hack through human flesh and bone just fine with his father's blade.



> Zabuza's sword is also big, but not particularly special.  It slashed people right good, but it could still be cut in half and broken by flowed weapons, and blocked with kunai from physically inferior people.




False. B's Raiton flow caused a fracture in the blade, and the nature of B's attack is very concentrated and precise on top of involving elemental chakra flow. The blade then broke more easily than it should have because Suigetsu didn't bother to shed some blood to restore it. While I don't doubt that Tsunade would be able to catch the blade or ouright smash it through sheer strength, I don't see Tsunade doing that to Kakashi with his superior speed and reflexes. If her battle with Madara is anything to go by, Tsunade would be far more likely to try to tank a blade slash, pry it out of her abdomen, and try to counterattack than she would be to dodge it. But she doesn't have healing here, and Kakashi is certainly faster than she is, so dodging or succumbing to a blow and counterattacking are essentially her only options.

When has Tsunade evaded hits from a faster opponent in CQC--one wielding a blade, no less? If this was pure taijutsu, I would give the edge to Tsunade, because Kakashi lacks the physical strength to seriously injure her with his pussy-licks, and continually dodging is almost impossible when you're right next to someone in a CQC exchange. Tsunade's taijutsu skills should certainly win out in that situation. However, when weapons are thrown into the mix, Kakashi now has not only has superior speed and reflexes (bolstered by 3-TS Sharingan), he also has a range advantage. Especially in the case of Kubikiribōchō. Kakashi doesn't have to take the risk of getting in close with punches when he has a blade that can slash Tsunade's flesh and allow him to keep a bit of distance. Moreover, with Kubikiribōchō (or Sakumo's blade, IMO), Kakashi can slice Tsunade's limbs off as he attacks. Kakashi is far more lethal in CQC with a blade than I think people are giving him credit for.




> Neither of them gut up to Orochimaru's kusunagi, which actually hurt Enma, and cut into his adamantine skin, butonlyput flesh wounds on Tsunade until the stab.




Being hurt is not the same thing as being fatally or deeply wounded. I can assure you that the latter is also quite painful. Enma was never _sliced_ clean through or wounded by Kusanagi in Adamantine form, and Tsunade certainly isn't durable enough to simply shrug off sword slashes.



> I apologize if my phrasing came off as disingenuous.




It wasn't solely your comment I was addressing, it was moreso a trend.

There was another thread where Kakashi's weapon spontaneously turned into a kunai for the purpose of beefing up an argument being made against his favor.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't change the fact that Shinra Tensei is a spread out force while a strike from Tsunade is much more focused, so the crater sizes being similar wouldn't mean that because a character took that former attack they could withstand the latter.
> 
> It's still a durability feat though, with or without some kindergarten teacher walking on-panel and saying _"okay readers, this one counts"_.




Shinra Tensei is only as spread out as the user wants it to be, be it on an entire village, a specific block, or a person, or even an inch-sized nail.  In that scan, Pain's target was Kakashi's face and arm because from his perspective, that is all he saw.  It was a vertically applied Shinra Tensei, not a horizontal one, so it was not dispersed across Kakashi's entire body.  It was a downwards push.  I'm not here to discuss semantics.

It's a durability feat in a very broad sense, but not one that I would use to try and prove a point that Kakashi can tank Raikage or Tsunade level hits or that he has above average durability for a named character.  I have no reason to believe Kakashi is more average than the next character that isn't nameless.  There is a fundamentally different approach between us that has become blatantly clear based on how we interpret these feats.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> practically done healing
> practically done healing



Danzo had his arm cut off, I don't see what the comparison is here.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

I don't put much stock in those because we don't know if Orochimaru actually lunged deep enough for the sword to actually cut through her (keep in mind he is lunging at her with his _neck_ - he isn't wielding it like a normal sword).  He just swiped his neck as opposed to charging forward like Sasuke did.

 It looks like a frontal slash in the same light Obito slashing Kakashi with his oversized Kamui shuriken.  It doesn't mean Kakashi can tank those shuriken that cut through Bijuu (Hachibi) limbs, just that Obito went for a regular slash rather than an all out double bisection.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Danzo had his arm cut off, I don't see what the comparison is here.



Look at it carefully. Sasuke cut through his whole body


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I don't put much stock in those because we don't know if Orochimaru actually lunged deep enough for the sword to actually cut through her.  It looks like a frontal slash in the same light Obito slashing Kakashi with his oversized Kamui shuriken.  It doesn't mean Kakashi can tank those shuriken, just that Obito went for a slash rather than a double bisection.



Yeah, this is my view on the whole thing. I remember discussing this with Bonly, I don't think that Orochimaru tried to bisect her once during their encounter.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Deva was leaning so the Shinra Tensei would have been launched diagonally, not vertically, which is why Kakashi didn't shoot straight back underground. The fact that Kakashi lunged at him doesn't mean he used a Shinra Tensei only as wide as Kakashi's face, just like it didn't mean he only used one as wide as Kakashi's upper torso the first time he whipped it out.

My point is that the feat wouldn't suggest that Kakashi was able to withstand fatigued out of shape Tsunade level hits _anyway_.


----------



## Saru (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Look at it carefully. Sasuke cut through his whole body




He was clearly aiming mainly for his arm to shutdown Izanagi, though.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Look at it carefully. Sasuke cut through his whole body



How could Sasuke cut through his Danzo's body in that way and then chop off his arm like that though? 

Look at the weird way he's holding his sword as well.



I thought the same as you too before, I could be wrong.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I don't put much stock in those because we don't know if Orochimaru actually lunged deep enough for the sword to actually cut through her (keep in mind he is lunging at her with his _neck_ - he isn't wielding it like a normal sword).  He just swiped his neck as opposed to charging forward like Sasuke did.
> 
> It looks like a frontal slash in the same light Obito slashing Kakashi with his oversized Kamui shuriken.  It doesn't mean Kakashi can tank those shuriken that cut through Bijuu (Hachibi) limbs, just that Obito went for a regular slash rather than an all out double bisection.


I disagree. Oro not only has incredible neck strength, but wields a much sharper sword. The angle of his strike is close enough to sasukes that if Tsuande wasn't durable enough, she would have been bisected.

I don't see how Obito using his own arms to slice Kakashi is comparable to his Kamui warp Kunai. 

Oro didn't try to bisect tsunade? No he just couldn't .


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> How could Sasuke cut through his Danzo's body in that way and then chop off his arm like that though?
> 
> Look at the weird way he's holding his sword as well.
> 
> ...



 Lol that shit makes no sense .

But we know that his arm came off and he was biscted based on the illustration.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I don't put much stock in those because we don't know if Orochimaru actually lunged deep enough for the sword to actually cut through her.



Going by the position of his feet he did.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Saru said:


> He was clearly aiming mainly for his arm to shutdown Izanagi, though.



Why does this matter if Danzo was still bisected?


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

lmao Oro not bisecting tsunade is not proof of super durability.

we have no idea how much power he had behind it or if he even could regularly.

We have no idea what his intent with the slash was.

Why is super momentum Sasuke with much better kenjutsu being brought into this?


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

I'm saying that Orochimaru did not lunge deep enough for it to cut her through the other side.  It easily cut through the parts it was swiped at.  The sword is not going to cut areas of Tsunade's body that it doesn't actually come in contact with.



FlamingRain said:


> The fact that Kakashi lunged at him doesn't mean he used a Shinra Tensei only as wide as Kakashi's face, just like it didn't mean he only used one as wide as Kakashi's upper torso the first time he whipped it out.



There is no basis to arbitrarily assume the Shinra Tensei was "spread out" when Pain has shown to be able to concentrate it or spread it out to his heart's desire.  The Shinra Tensei he uses are proportional to the target he is focusing on.



> My point is that the feat wouldn't suggest that Kakashi was able to withstand fatigued rusty Tsunade level hits _anyway_.



It caused comparable enough damage for me to believe he can if I were interpreting feats in this manner, which I'm not.


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## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

I didn't know Kusangi level durability was still a thing. But when you get users saying Tsunade can survive evening elephant, it's not that far fetched.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I'm saying that Orochimaru did not lunge deep enough for it to cut her through the other side.



Echoing Yoko's post again.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> lmao Oro not bisecting tsunade is not proof of super durability.
> 
> we have no idea how much power he had behind it or if he even could regularly.
> 
> ...



 What? His intent? His intent was the same for all his slashes. To kill her, thats why he was slicking all her organs up. You think he was doing that shit for fun? 

Better kenjutsu has nothing to do with the power behind sasukes slash. Sasuke has a less sharp sword and should he weaker than Oro, even his neck. I find oro to have a lot of neck strentgh given that it can withstand the expansion of his sword sending Kyuubi Naruto in a trail of craters.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Orochimaru didn't have knowledge on Tsunade's healing abilities at that point though, there's no reason why he would try to bisect her. I don't think it's IC for him to attempt bisection like that.


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## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

ST is a unifrom force across the surface that can create craters, break boss summon bones, and bust cities. 

It spread out means nothing, as it was all repelled when KN6 flexed enough force to turn it back on Deva.


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Are people forgetting the Senju bodies in the flashbacks had Kunai, swords and arrows sticking in their bodies...


----------



## Saru (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Why does this matter if Danzo was still bisected?




I didn't see the bisection. However, the situation--Sasuke lunging through Danzo--is different than Orochimaru standing and slashing Tsunade's chest or body.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 28, 2016)

Super chakra flowed arrows and swords of death. Fired and swung by shinobi gods yeah.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> What? His intent? His intent was the same for all his slashes. To kill her, thats why he was slicking all her organs up. You think he was doing that shit for fun?


I can kill you by giving you a deep torso wound. You can't prove Oro's intent was to slice her in half which was your claim and the basis behind your durability argument.


> Better kenjutsu has nothing to do with the power behind sasukes slash.


yes it does. Pick up a sword and then talk. Technique makes a huge difference and Sauce is the wayyy better kenjutsu user.


> Sasuke has a less sharp sword and should he weaker than Oro,


Prove your first claim and the second is bullshit. Oro's neck muscles do not bypass his arm strength/ability to use technique with his arms.


> even his neck.



bull, prove it.



> I find oro to have a lot of neck strentgh given that it can withstand the expansion of his sword sending Kyuubi Naruto in a trail of craters.


His neck was being expanded at great speeds, and damaging his neck does jac to him. None of this proves he has better slashing strength than a Sasuke projecting forth with extreme momentum. 

to boot Tsunade is inherently much bulier than Danzo's frail old self.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Well, Orochimaru's Kusanagi has been hyped quite a bit while Sasuke's sword is nameless and pretty much just a generic Chokuto. I don't think Sasuke's sword is stronger than Kusanagi.


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> Super chakra flowed arrows and swords of death. Fired and swung by shinobi gods yeah.



Wahh? Prove it. Because Hashirama or any other member (e.g. Tobirama) showed no such ability. How do you even chakra flow arrows.

Woooops. I mean no Uchiha showed chakra flow (e.g . Madara, Izuna ). It's noot impossible, but in all instances on panel no chakra flow was used by Uchiha to injure Senju with basic weapons.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Well, Orochimaru's Kusanagi has been hyped quite a bit while Sasuke's sword is nameless and pretty much just a generic Chokuto. I don't think Sasuke's sword is stronger than Kusanagi.



Sasuke's sword cut Sage Kabuto's Horn (Sage durability on top of Horn's being hardest parts of body), and directly parried a Sage Chakra scalpel. It ialso didn't break from reflecting off of Yata. It isn't called mini Kusa for nothing.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Sasuke's sword cut Sage Kabuto's Horn (Sage durability on top of Horn's being hardest parts of body), and directly parried a Sage Chakra scalpel. It ialso didn't break from reflecting off of Yata. It isn't called mini Kusa for nothing.



I don't think that Kusanagi couldn't do those things though.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> The Shinra Tensei he uses are proportional to the target he is focusing on.



Nagato has hit things that were narrow, that doesn't mean the Shinra Tensei was as narrow. We know it wasn't in that instance because the ground caved before Kakashi even smacked into it, not as a result of him smacking into it _(1)_. It wasn't proportionate to Kakashi the first time he used it either.

So...



> It caused comparable enough damage for me to believe he can if I were interpreting feats in this manner, which I'm not.



no it didn't.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Sasuke's sword cut Sage Kabuto's Horn (Sage durability on top of Horn's being hardest parts of body), and directly parried a Sage Chakra scalpel. It ialso didn't break from reflecting off of Yata. It isn't called mini Kusa for nothing.



Sasuke's sword couldn't cut through basic Kunai without lightning enhancement...


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> I'm saying that Orochimaru did not lunge deep enough for it to cut her through the other side.  It easily cut through the parts it was swiped at.  The sword is not going to cut areas of Tsunade's body that it doesn't actually come in contact with.



Orochimaru's foot is behind Tsunade's. The sword would have extended past her (we know it did because the top of the back of her shirt is parted and stained). From there, swung across like that, it would have cut her like Sasuke cut Danzō...if it could.


----------



## Itachі (Jan 28, 2016)

If the blade extended past her (and Oro tried to bisect her) wouldn't it have just stopped around her shoulder if it wasn't able to bisect? To me it just looks like he slashed the front of her body.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> If the blade extended past her (and Oro tried to bisect her) wouldn't it have just stopped around her shoulder if it wasn't able to bisect? To me it just looks like he slashed the front of her body.



If you try slashing something and don't go all the way through it, the thing you're trying to slash it with can slide off if you're still applying force to it.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> I don't think that Kusanagi couldn't do those things though.


I never sasuke's sword was better though. I'm denying the claim the Oro's is anything but marginally superior.



Rocky said:


> Sasuke's sword couldn't cut through basic Kunai without lightning enhancement...


When did Kusa cut through metal or Iron?


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Oro would have sliced on the outside of her shoulder and through, I'm oretty sure you can see the start of the cut on the frontside of her torso indicating she just got slashed.

Oro's footwork was to gain more traction, cause he was ya know slashing with his mouth strength.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

When would we have expected to see it cut through metal?

Plus, I think if Sasuke's blade were the actual Kusanagi like the one Orochimaru uses, he'd have used it on Deidara instead of trying to hit him with an Eisō that required so much other maneuvering to connect with due to the length.



Dr. White said:


> Oro would have sliced on the outside of her shoulder and through, I'm oretty sure you can see the start of the cut on the frontside of her torso indicating she just got slashed.



If he simply swung across the front, there wouldn't be a tear on the _back_ of her shirt with blood on it would there?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> Yeah, this is my view on the whole thing. I remember discussing this with Bonly, I don't think that Orochimaru tried to bisect her once during their encounter.



The blade went behind her body.  You can even see she received damage across the entire top of her shoulder.  The only reason it wouldn't have cut straight through her is if it got caught on her collar bone, and had to be drug back and across her front.  That would actually produce the exact wound we saw on her.


----------



## Jad (Jan 28, 2016)

Back to the issue. I think a few of these blows will beat Tsunade, if not injure her enough to make Gai's advances easier. 5x his strength with 1st Gate, and the job is completed quicker.

Gai: 

Obito:


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> When would we have expected to see it cut through metal?
> 
> Plus, I think if Sasuke's blade were the actual Kusanagi like the one Orochimaru uses, he'd have used it on Deidara instead of trying to hit him with an Eisō that required so much other maneuvering to connect with due to the length.
> 
> ...



Cause that seemed to be important to roxy as if kusangi Sr. had.

Sasuke did try to use it on diedara at first. Eiso is more effective vs ranged opponents, sauce knew he used doton, and it lands its a killshot.

Don't see how any of this makes oro's significantly stronger


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Nagato has hit things that were narrow, that doesn't mean the Shinra Tensei was as narrow.



It is enough to conflict with the notion that it is an always "spread out" type of attack.



> We know it wasn't in that instance because the ground caved before Kakashi even smacked into it, not as a result of him smacking into it _(1)_.



Kakashi's body was still more than half submerged under the ground when Pain used Shinra Tensei, so not necessarily.



> It wasn't proportionate to Kakashi the first time he used it either.



An omni-directional one, likely made so to eliminate the Doton Wall that had boxed him in.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> When did Kusa cut through metal or Iron?



Orochimaru said it could cut through anything irrc. He probably would have included steel in that comment.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Pretty sure that's from when he stabbed her isn't it?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Ah, here it is.

You can clearly see the wound went past her shoulder.


......


wound went past her shoulder.
wound went past her shoulder.

You know what's hilarious about this phrasing is that Orochimaru didn't seem to think this would be enough to kill Tsunade.  I wonder what it says in Viz.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Orochimaru said it could cut through anything irrc. He probably would have included steel in that comment.



And his general hype statement is valid because? When have we seen it do anything like that? You know who's hype I believe? Kimmimaro because his bones actually broke a steel sword.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Cause that seemed to be important to roxy as if kusangi Sr. had.



 ?



> Sasuke did try to use it on diedara at first. Eiso is more effective vs ranged opponents, sauce knew he used doton, and it lands its a killshot.



Sasuke didn't try having it extend or telekinetically controlling it.

I don't think he needed to use a Raiton to swipe off a wing of the C2 dragon.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Sasuke can't control his telekinetically, that's why he chose eiso. His range was clearly defined by said jutsu. Which is why he had to draw Diedara in.


----------



## Yoko (Jan 28, 2016)

Orochimaru is a Futon user, so if we really want to get analytical beyond the scope the manga intended, that sword telekinesis could've been some sort of wind variant.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

If it can't levitate or extend like the one Orochimaru uses then it probably isn't the same as the one Orochimaru uses.



			
				Sadness on Wheels;55120424wound went past her shoulder.
wound went past her shoulder.

You know what's hilarious about this phrasing is that Orochimaru didn't seem to think this would be enough to kill Tsunade.  I wonder what it says in Viz.[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> Which bubbles are you referring to?


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> Ah, here it is.
> 
> You can clearly see the


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If it can't levitate or extend like the one Orochimaru uses then it probably isn't the same as the one Orochimaru uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Which bubbles are you referring to?



Or
A.) or has a jutsu or some applied control
B.) it's a special copy of the original. 

I never said they were the same but sasukes sword has great feats of its own and oro's sword has nothing to suggest its significantly sharper. Also the name wasn't given to sasuke from Oro for no reason. It's clearly related in grade.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> And his general hype statement is valid because?



A sword that can cut through anything isn't all that different from a normal sword if it can't cut through other normal swords.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Sasuke and Orochimaru have the same Taijutsu statistic, so if Sasuke is better he isn't that much better.

And if Orochimaru can push Kn4 over that bridge instead of simply pushing his own head back in the opposite direction his neck ought to be decently strong.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> If it can't levitate or extend like the one Orochimaru uses then it probably isn't the same as the one Orochimaru uses.
> 
> 
> 
> Which bubbles are you referring to?



The ones where he says, "I wasn't trying to kill you," and, "Why would you risk your life for this boy?"  and when he tells her to get out of his way.  

It doesn't sound like he expected her to die from getting stabbed where the heart or the major aortic valve runs.  In fact, he came there to capture her, so I feel like he'd be a bit more worried about accidentally killing his doctor.  I'm wondering if Viz has any other connotations.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I never said they were the same but sasukes sword has great feats of its own and oro's sword has nothing to suggest its significantly sharper.



What great feats does Sasuke's blade have that don't involve Raiton?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> The ones where he says, "I wasn't trying to kill you," and, "Why would you risk your life for this boy?"  and when he tells her to get out of his way.



The Viz reads:

*"Tsunade...// you were the one I would have spared..." 

"If I leave this boy alive, everything will fall apart...// For once, stay out of my way...?"*​

Wait, the other one:

_*"Hmph...trembling from the fear of blood.../ Why are you, one of the Three Great Shinobi...//...risking everything to protect some Genin brat...?"*_​

I think the most interesting example was how Katsuyu and Orochimaru reacted to her being split in half, though.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Arigato Furamingu-san.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> What great feats does Sasuke's blade have that don't involve Raiton?



Cutting Danzo to bits.  Though I feel like a normal sword would do that too.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 28, 2016)

Rocky said:


> A sword that can cut through anything isn't all that different from a normal sword if it can't cut through other normal swords.


Except it doesn't prove Oro was right to begin with, and never specified an ability to do such. Zabuzas sword is majorly better than a kunai but Kakashi was parrying that shit with all of Zabuza's msucle, and the weight of the sword, with his kunai.



FlamingRain said:


> Sasuke and Orochimaru have the same Taijutsu statistic, so if Sasuke is better he isn't that much better.
> 
> And if Orochimaru can push Kn4 over that bridge instead of simply pushing his own head back in the opposite direction his neck ought to be decently strong.


Taijutsu isn't kenjutsu, and Sasuke's feats speak for themselves. Oro's stat is irrelevant if Sasuke is demonstrably better (not that the databok stat correlates to that anyway).

That is a specific stretching jutsu, in which he picked up momentum for dozens of meters, not at all comparable to how he slashed Tsunade.

And the feats for Sauce's Kusanagi are clashing with Susano without chipping (try taking a regular Katana and piercing a boulder with it), and clashed evenly with a Sage chakra scalpel (pt. 2 base Kabuto was easily bisecting thick layers of Mokuton.)


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 28, 2016)

Kenjutsu is a subcategory of Taijutsu, hence the Acrobat technique Killer Bee uses being labeled Taijutsu.

I can respond to the rest of that post (and other ones I didn't quote yet) tomorrow, but I've got assignments to do.



Sadness on Wheels said:


> Cutting Danzo to bits.  Though I feel like a normal sword would do that too.



I guess that bringing that one up somehow lead to it slipping when I asked that question.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Yoko said:


> It still struck Kakashi with enough force to create a crater larger than what Tsunade's punches did against P1 Kabuto.  And the Kakuzu scan was multiple trees, not just one.  Getting kicked through multiple giant trees, surviving two city-block level Shinra Tensei, and surviving a crater-creating Shinra Tensei are _several_ feats - not just one.
> 
> I'm not "using evidence in a way I don't believe in order to convince others" because I'm not actually trying to use those scans to claim that Kakashi is a durability monster that can tank Tsunade's punches [or the hits of any other acclaimed physical ninja].  What I _am_ claiming, however, is that all the arguments that I've seen used here to try and paint Tsunade as a durability freak are of the same nature as the hypothetical argument one would make that Kakashi is one as well.
> 
> I don't think swords and kunai will bounce off Tsunade's neck for the same reason I don't think Kakashi will survive hits from the likes of Raikage and Tsunade.



Check the  section for how I would actually construct an argument to give someone I don't believe has super durability super durability.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> Kenjutsu is a subcategory of Taijutsu, hence the Acrobat technique Killer Bee uses being labeled Taijutsu.
> 
> I can respond to the rest of that post (and other ones I didn't quote yet) tomorrow, but I've got assignments to do.
> 
> ...



Didn't Sasuke also cut some CS2 idjit to bits when he picked up ....that guy who could talk to animals?


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 28, 2016)

Itachі said:


> What feats does Tsunade have against Kusanagi? She never resisted getting stabbed or cut.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Somewhat unrelated, but funny enough, she didn't even have battle damage on her clothes afterthe 5v1.

In fact, the only battle damage she showed were the three susano sword stabs she received on panel, which were meticulously preserved between chapters.

For some reason I had this quoted in a tab, so I'm responding with the first thing that came to mind.  Feel free to ignore it as a oddity.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 28, 2016)

> Scenario I: Tsunade vs. Gai. Taijutsu only. Weapons allowed. Gai is restricted to the first gate.


Twin Attacking Fangs go to work and systematically rip her apart. 

Rinnegan Obito couldn't land a finger on him, Tsunade certainly isn't going to. 



> Scenario II: Tsunade vs. Kakashi. Taijutsu only. Weapons allowed. Kakashi (War Arc) is allowed his Sharingan.


Tsunade; Kakashi isn't beheading her without taking a shot and cutting her limbs off isn't possible with mere kunai.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2016)

Likes boss said:


> But I've already stated that my main argument for tsunade being durable is her lineage. It's kinda Kishis fault that he retconned the Senju into physical gods.



In fairness, I don't think durability was a retcon, nor was their stamina.  I came across the Kusunagi bit because I said Kishi retconned the Senju, and went to go find proof of that Senju were normal and justas easily chopped in half as any other ninja.  I was going to make a sarcastic post about "Senju durability in action," while posting pictures of Tsunade getting chopped in half by Orochimaru.  But looking closely it didn't happen.  Then I got annoyed that Kishi did such a bad job portraying the Senju and this aspect of his world that no one even noticed.  

Tsunade did take less wounds a superior sword than she should, and wounds that should have instantly killed a normal person, and Tobirama did use high level sourceless suitons back when such a thing was unthinkable.  Medical jutsu was also stated to drain large amounts of chakra, so it made the Senju special in that regard.  But it was given so little attention, and we had no other Senju or Uzumaki to compare with, that we had no way to know.  The only other one was Naruto, who had everything from stamina to durability to healing pinned on the Kyuubi, as the sister race to the Senju we didn't know existed.  Then later he inflated it to keep pace with the other inflations, which makes it feel even more unnatural.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

Senju durability.

Look at those arrows and kunais bouncing right off their bodies.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 29, 2016)

What if the high durability Tsunade has is not of the Senju, and it's of the Uzumakis? Because... Senjus didn't really look durable. (Tsunade should be, even though i don't see her insanely durable to the point of not feeling Gai's attacks or outlasting his match, but that's another thing).

Nagato shrugged off a direct Lariat before absorbing Bee's chakra... At least, he's not the only Uzumaki with a good tanking feat.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Dogs, Tsunade is not durable because lolSenju. She's durable because of her super strength. 

Super durability is a required secondary superpower when you have super strength. I guess nobody noticed that Gai, Kisame, Killer B, Raikage, Papa Raikage, the Sages, and everyfuckingbody else with abnormal strength is also abnormally durable too.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2016)

Kisame got stabbed by vibrato knife without Raiton, Lee got scraped by KimmimaroKiller Bee had to go Bjuu to not be hurt by Shuriken, Ei was threatened by Minato's base Kunai, Sage Naruto got caught by sakura's kunai, Itachi cut Kabuto, etc.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Kisame got stabbed by vibrato knife without Raiton







Dr. White said:


> Lee got scraped by Kimmimaro



Who cares.



Dr. White said:


> Killer Bee had to go Bjuu to not be hurt by Shuriken



Shuriken that were on motherfucking fire. 



Dr. White said:


> Ei was threatened by Minato's base Kunai



It would have bounced off of his armor just like Sasuke's lightning covered sword did. 



Dr. White said:


> Sage Naruto got caught by sakura's kunai



He was in base...and it gave him nothing but a tiny cut anyway.



Dr. White said:


> Itachi cut Kabuto, etc.



A fodder horn.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

But Tsunade's monstrous strength is artificial. It's all Chakra. So your example can't be really used.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Tsunade has superhuman strength without the Ōkashō method, thus the 5/5 in the Databook.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 29, 2016)

The fact that Tsunade can lift Gamabunta's knife and hurl it with enough force to completely pin Manda down is enough to prove she has superhuman strength _therefore_ durability as well. They go hand-in-hand.

Madara's Magatama probably would have ripped through a regular shinobi like paper, but Tsunade took it with a mild piercing in her abdomen.


----------



## Saru (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Dogs, Tsunade is not durable because lolSenju. She's durable because of her super strength.
> 
> Super durability is a required secondary superpower when you have super strength. I guess nobody noticed that Gai, Kisame, Killer B, Raikage, Papa Raikage, the Sages, and everyfuckingbody else with abnormal strength is also abnormally durable too.




That's correlation, not causation (IMO). The tank who is slow and can take hits but dishes out a lot of pain is a pretty standard archetype. It doesn't prove that Tsunade is durable enough to shrug off swords, though. Kakashi-sensei never said that physical strength affords you enhanced durability. On the other hand, if you want to argue that muscle mass gives you greater defenses against impact due to the fact that you're literally more massive and thus harder to cut through / break through, that's a pretty logical assertion.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> The fact that Tsunade can lift Gamabunta's knife and hurl it with enough force to completely pin Manda down is enough to prove she has superhuman strength _therefore_ durability as well. They go hand-in-hand.
> 
> Madara's Magatama probably would have ripped through a regular shinobi like paper, but Tsunade took it with a mild piercing in her abdomen.



I hate to bring this up again, but the databook specifically explains thus was all due to her chakra control.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2016)

You are taking that to mean more than it actually does, for reasons repeatedly pointed out to you and which you have not once answered.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> You are taking that to mean more than it actually does, for reasons repeatedly pointed out to you and which you have not once answered.



The whole section of the Databook was dedicated to Tsunade and her "unbelievable strength that can only be chalked up to her chakra control" (paraphrased). Post the databook entry again. And in it, it references her lifting the blade.

Kishimoto literally says that her strength can only be attributed to chakra control.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2016)

That doesn't answer any of the things I've said to you about it.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That doesn't answer any of the things I've said to you about it.



I don't remember. This thread moves like lighting and i type on my phone. So it's hard to keep up. Hence i hardly quote. Bad grammar too.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 29, 2016)

Jad said:


> I hate to bring this up again, but the databook specifically explains thus was all due to her chakra control.



Correct me if wrong, but Tsunade's chakra control only applies to when she strikes something. The chakra in her fist is released and therefore delivers a stronger impact.

Lifting Gamabunta's sword has nothing to do with that. That's pure lifting strength and Tsunade's body would have been torn to pieces if she wasn't physically durable enough to perform it.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Correct me if wrong, but Tsunade's chakra control only applies to when she strikes something. The chakra in her fist is released and therefore delivers a stronger impact.
> 
> Lifting Gamabunta's sword has nothing to do with that. That's pure lifting strength and Tsunade's body would have been torn to pieces if she wasn't physically durable enough to perform it.



But the data book says it was due yo her chakra she was able to life the blade. I mean that's a fact, at least to me it is since it's from the author.


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2016)

Me said:


> The databook mentions her tantō feat, and I just gave you a way it could have applied that would still be consistent with other instances in the manga and descriptions in the databook.





Me said:


> The only way Tsunade could have applied Chakra-enhanced strength to the Gamabunta tantō feat is by using it to bound while carrying the sword.
> 
> The act of picking up and swinging the sword she had to have done with her natural strength, or else Sakura wouldn't have used an explosive note to get out of a measly rope attached to a kunai.



This is what I mean.


Also from the databook:



> People in general are liable to acknowledge it as super-strength, but this is an application of medical ninjutsu that demands concentration and minute chakra control. *Maximal chakra is instantly kneaded inside the body, and all of it is enclosed into the right fist at a moment's notice!!
> That chakra is dispersed into the target with the impact of the punch, propagating the damage into its every nook and corner!* Any kind of strength is meaningless before this technique.



That doesn't cover other facets of power, which is why Sakura didn't snap out of that rope with no difficulty whatsoever and instead resorted to an explosive note.

That and, that wouldn't have been countered by Kabuto severing her muscles, because she could still apply medical Jutsu once he did that.

Tsunade's power is already enormous prior to Chakra-charging.


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 29, 2016)

Jad said:


> But the data book says it was due yo her chakra she was able to life the blade. I mean that's a fact, at least to me it is since it's from the author.



Can I get an exact quote?


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> Can I get an exact quote?





I'll try find the images..


----------



## ATastyMuffin (Jan 29, 2016)

Jad said:


> I'll try find the images..



I see the quote saying Tsunade applies chakra to her fist and fingers. Points of impact, in other words.

Don't see anything about her muscles.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

ATastyMuffin said:


> I see the quote saying Tsunade applies chakra to her fist and fingers. Points of impact, in other words.
> 
> Don't see anything about her muscles.



I mean it talks about her general 'strength' increase which is enough fir me to believe it encompasses everything that requires...strength. Plus it references her handling Gamabunta's blade under chakra/strength entry. I see no reason not to believe that Tsunade's strength is in no small part but due to chakra tuning.


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2016)

Saru said:


> Kakashi's strength surely grew over the ten year gap. Kid Kakashi wouldn't be able to lug Kubikiribōchō around the way Kakashi did in the war. Based on the databook, Sasuke went from a 2 in strength in Part 1 to a 3.5 in strength midway through Part 2. I would say that Kakashi and Sasuke are comparable in terms of their aptitude and fighting styles, so it's very reasonable that Kakashi would be able hack through human flesh and bone just fine with his father's blade.



A good blade should do most of the work for you.  If the tanto was as amazing as it was said to be, I don't expect you need to brute force it through a ninja with average durability.  This. Did this.  
  That's barely getting through the jacket.  Kunai slashes have done that.  In fact, Obito dropped him with a thrust.  Then we've got this doing barely anything.  And it got chopped in half by fodder blades.  Meanwhile Itachi parried blows from Bee's raiton flowed seven sword dance with a kunai.  It's really stupid, because the tanto should be better.  Instead it's actively worse, but shiny, in-spite of being a chakra conducting blade like Asuma's trench knives.  Remember Asuma casually tossing his trench knives through stone, or raiton flowed shuriken shaving through other shuriken, or even the basic samurai chakra flowed swords cutting into Kimi's bones on impact?  It should have been a weapon like that.  I wish it was like that.



> Being hurt is not the same thing as being fatally or deeply wounded. I can assure you that the latter is also quite painful. Enma was never _sliced_ clean through or wounded by Kusanagi in Adamantine form, and Tsunade certainly isn't durable enough to simply shrug off sword slashes.



It doesn't matter.  If you can hurt someone through the boss summon equivalent of Doton: Domu, you can destroy something with normal durability.  If you put a fodder in front of armless Oro, do you doubt his ability to chop him in half?  If you gave an average ninja a normal sword, and told them to chop a normal ninja in half, wouldn't that happen?



> It wasn't solely your comment I was addressing, it was moreso a trend.
> 
> There was another thread where Kakashi's weapon spontaneously turned into a kunai for the purpose of beefing up an argument being made against his favor.



Yeah, that's annoying.


----------



## DaVizWiz (Jan 29, 2016)

Jad said:


> I mean it talks about her general 'strength' increase which is enough fir me to believe it encompasses everything that requires...strength. Plus it references her handling Gamabunta's blade under chakra/strength entry. I see no reason not to believe that Tsunade's strength is in no small part but due to chakra tuning.


I'm on board with this. 

Sakura pulled full force flying forward Sasori back in the opposite direction 30m by his cord and slugged him.

She didn't have this superhuman lifting strength prior to training with Tsunade 24+ months ago. She, like Tsunade, gained it from a technique known as chakra enhanced strength. 

Superhuman durability can be the case for most superhuman strength characters as it pertains to blunt or smash or burn damage, but Killer Bee, Tsunade, Gai, SM Naruto, Han, Kisame, Sakura, SM Hashirama, Lee and Zabuza can all die to a forehead or chest kunai stab, by any fodder ninja, just as easy as any of us. (Assuming they don't heal themselves, of course)

None of them have superhuman durability as it pertains to edged weapons. It'd be like a hot knife through butter. This is the inconsistency of Kishimoto's manga, there are very few ninja who have edged weapon durability (Ei, 3rd Raikage, V2 Jins, Jugo, Hebi Sasuke)


----------



## Bringer (Jan 29, 2016)

@DaViz

And yet Sakura couldn't flex out of some generic rope.


----------



## Jad (Jan 29, 2016)

BringerOfChaos said:


> @DaViz
> 
> And yet Sakura couldn't flex out of some generic rope.



Post scan?


----------



## FlamingRain (Jan 29, 2016)

Jad said:


> Post scan?



He's talking about this _(1)_


----------



## The Pirate on Wheels (Jan 29, 2016)

That rope was forged in the fires of Mt. Miyoboku.


----------



## LostSelf (Jan 29, 2016)

FlamingRain said:


> That and, that wouldn't have been countered by Kabuto severing her muscles, because she could still apply medical Jutsu once he did that.
> 
> Tsunade's power is already enormous prior to Chakra-charging.



Severing her muscles would've been pointless if Tsunade could still apply chakra to X part of her body and hit extremely hard, like she uses to do.

But she couldn't. Kabuto probably disabled that.

Sakura also had other reasons to use an explosive tag. Like dispersing the cloud. I don't think she could've seen something  there, so attempting to break something while keeping the trap there (poison cloud disabling her vision and allowing him to attack more) didn't seem like the best option.

Explosive tag accomplished both. I mean, she can overpower Sasori, use her super human strenght (talking about ninja's being superhuman) and move a big boulder, but can't break a rope? Something doesn't fit there.

But hey, ropes tends to be super strong in the manga. Remember the one handling the giant log? I mean, super durable .


----------



## Bringer (Jan 29, 2016)

> Severing her muscles would've been pointless if Tsunade could still apply chakra to X part of her body and hit extremely hard, like she uses to do.
> 
> But she couldn't. Kabuto probably disabled that.



You made this point earlier, which I refuted. 

As for the Kabuto fight, let's look again on what transpired. Kabuto attacks from underground, Tsunade jumps and then comes crashing down with a punch. 

About half a year later

This punch right here is obviously not chakra enhanced. It paled before any of her previous craters. Tsunade was tired before there fight officially began because Orochimaru and Kabuto wore her out by having her chase them. Kabuto then proceeded to take a soldier pill so he wouldn't be hindered by being worn out. Tsunade's opponent wasn't only Kabuto, she was planning on fighting Orochimaru too, a fellow Sannin. I think she was not using chakra enhanced strength because she wanted to save chakra, and because her regular hits are enough to fuck people up. 

Kabuto runs to the side to avoid Tsunade's hit, and Tsunade follows up with a jump kick. Kabuto ducks, and Tsunade tears through a boulder. Kabuto then body flickers while Tsunade is vulnerable mid air, because you can't dodge mid air unless you can fly or you have a clone throw you out of the way. 

About half a year later

Kabuto hits her MUSCLES(not chakra network) with chakra scalpel, and upon landing Tsunade recovers and tackles Kabuto.

About half a year later

AFTER the tackle, Tsunade thinks "Muscles!" and not "Chakra!". This further shows she was using natural strength to fight Kabuto. She noticed her muscles were fucked after the tackle, not before, so she had no reason to switch to chakra enhanced strength in that point of the fight. It makes no sense for a chakra scalpel to stop her from being able to use a technique. 

Now, after she realizes her muscles are fucked, it's more or less too late. She's on her knees with fucked muscles, and Kabuto runs at her before she can even stand up. She tries to protect her neck because that's what Kabuto said he'd hit, but instead he hit her respiratory muscles. 

At this point, she can't breathe, and she needs to buy herself time to heal. Tsunade has three options. She can hit him with her natural strength which is now garbage tier because of the chakra scalpel. She could hit him with chakra enhanced strength, which he might survive like Shin survived Sakura's punch, and since he's a medical ninja he could recover while Tsunade is also healing herself, or she could use the body disturbance technique to buy herself time to heal her respiratory muscles.  She opts for the latter. 

About half a year later

She then punches him two pages later, with another lack luster punch, signifying that it was a natural strength punch. At this point in the fight, Tsunade thinks Kabuto is beat, so there was no need to waste chakra on a chakra enhanced punch. She didn't think he would be able to figure out how to move.

About half a year later

The next page she begins to heal herself. 

About half a year later

And then she says "Damn, healing would consume too much chakra". Another piece of evidence showing she's trying to conserve chakra in her fight with Kabuto. This, coupled with the damage her punches did before and after she got her muscles fucked, and the fact that fucked up muscles doesn't effect your chakra, indicates she was fighting Kabuto with her natural strength. 




> Sakura also had other reasons to use an explosive tag. Like dispersing the cloud. I don't think she could've seen something  there, so attempting to break something while keeping the trap there (poison cloud disabling her vision and allowing him to attack more) didn't seem like the best option.
> 
> Explosive tag accomplished both. I mean, she can overpower Sasori, use her super human strenght (talking about ninja's being superhuman) and move a big boulder, but can't break a rope? Something doesn't fit there.
> 
> But hey, ropes tends to be super strong in the manga. Remember the one handling the giant log? I mean, super durable .



If Sakura had the lifting strength Tsunade had, she would've been able to easily tear through the rope, and then jump out of the cloud. No, instead she used a paper bomb at point blank range which could've killed or crippled her. I'm not buying the "dangerous usage of paper bomb is convenient" excuse.


----------



## Saru (Jan 29, 2016)

Sadness on Wheels said:


> A good blade should do most of the work for you.  If the tanto was as amazing as it was said to be, I don't expect you need to brute force it through a ninja with average durability.  This. Did this.
> That's barely getting through the jacket.  Kunai slashes have done that.  In fact, Obito dropped him with a thrust.  Then we've got this doing barely anything.  And it got chopped in half by fodder blades.  Meanwhile Itachi parried blows from Bee's raiton flowed seven sword dance with a kunai.  It's really stupid, because the tanto should be better.  Instead it's actively worse, but shiny, in-spite of being a chakra conducting blade like Asuma's trench knives.  Remember Asuma casually tossing his trench knives through stone, or raiton flowed shuriken shaving through other shuriken, or even the basic samurai chakra flowed swords cutting into Kimi's bones on impact?  It should have been a weapon like that.  I wish it was like that.




Fair enough. The White Light Chakra Sabre should've just been the While Lightsaber, honestly. It would make Sakumo's hype seem a lot more deserved.




> It doesn't matter.  If you can hurt someone through the boss summon equivalent of Doton: Domu, you can destroy something with normal durability.  If you put a fodder in front of armless Oro, do you doubt his ability to chop him in half?  If you gave an average ninja a normal sword, and told them to chop a normal ninja in half, wouldn't that happen?




I don't doubt Orochimaru's or Kusanagi's capabilities, but we have been shown Kusanagi's cutting limits. I don't think Tsunade's durability is at all comparable to Enma in diamond staff form, and I don't think that Orochimaru was trying to bisect Tsunade either. I doubt that a sword in hands of a shinobi like Kakashi (or Sasuke, or Itachi, or Tobirama, etc.) would simply get stuck in Tsunade's abdomen or fail to penetrate her. Maybe she could flex her abddomen Machi style and stop it from running her through completely. But I doubt that she would be able to stop a blade from cutting through her limbs like butter if Kakashi wanted it to. Especially not the likes of Kubikiribōchō.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

What Machi did to Killua is what Tsunade would do to Kakashi trying to stab her. You'd need somebody like A or Gated Gai on the other end of the Kubikiribōchō to actually cut her in half. Kakashi hasn't cut any strength demons in half. Kakashi hasn't cut diddly shit in half.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi hasn't cut diddly shit in half.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

That sword is covered in lightning.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> The sword is covered in raiton.


Your quote have no specifics about how you are supposed to cut people in half.

Regardless. Zabuza casually cuts through Haku with an awkward swing.


*Spoiler*: __ 








Kakashi stalemates him with an inferior weapon.


*Spoiler*: __ 







Kakashi's normal swing vs Tsunade is up for a debate. But Kakashi's normal swings vs people of average durability would result in said people being cut in half. Zabuza is the guy who carries around an extremely heavy sword named "Beheader". Same sword that Suigetsu struggles to hold using both hands. 



Same Suigetsu who actually stopped Raikage's swing and only lost the exchange after Raikage applied more force to a damaged blade. 


*Spoiler*: __ 








Zabuza ~ Kakashi > Suigetsu in strength as evident by multiple feats. No matter how you slice it(or cut through I guess) Kakashi's strength is solid.


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Kakashi has a 3 in strength. Zabuza has a 4. 

I really only care about Kakashi versus those with abnormal toughness, but the fact that Kakashi felt the need to dedicate chakra to Raiton flow in order to deliver a fatal blow to that random sword dude should tell you something.


----------



## Alex Payne (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Kakashi has a 3 in strength. Zabuza has a 4.


 Kakashi's strength is 3.5. CE Sasuke has 3.0 Speed. CE Lee has 4.0. Manga > DB



Rocky said:


> I really only care about Kakashi versus those with abnormal toughness, but the fact that Kakashi felt the need to dedicate chakra to Raiton flow in order to deliver a fatal blow to that random sword dude should tell you something.


 We saw only the end of that exchange. Kakashi might have needed to bust though whatever move Fuguki used before. And not using Raiton Flow would be a dumb move. Raiton Flow doesn't cost much chakra and there are a bunch of medics to refill him. There was no need to hold back/conserve your chakra. Kakashi simply used the best available move.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> Uhm you can clearly see him get stabbed in that same panel...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Hasan (Jan 29, 2016)

Does this count as strength?


----------



## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> Uhm you can clearly see him get stabbed in that same panel.







Dr. White said:


> You argued more strength automatically equates to more durability



Kid Lee isn't all that strong. 



Dr. White said:


> Which were irrelevant to their piercing power in short time periods, and doesn't explain his vulnerability to the follow up shuriken not on fire.



Super-heated metal cuts more easily than cool metal. The regular Shuriken wouldn't have done much of anything to him.



Dr. White said:


> Mhm, that's what Kishi portrayed, and that's why Bee saved him.



If you wish to argue that Minato has a special ability that allows his Kunai to be more penetrative than Chidorigatana, I'm okay with that. 



Dr. White said:


> I already been over the lightning stuff, in so much that Raiton diffuses and mitiates the effects of other raiton unless overly superior.





Much diffused. 

So mitigated.

Wow.





Dr. White said:


> Pretty sure he was using SM to sense their position and for the speed boost needed to save her.



Looks like base Naruto to me. 



Dr. White said:


> You claimed they would be overly invulnerable to piercing/slashing because of their blunt force durability which is wrong.



I don't recall actually saying that, but you'd know that Naruto is okay against piercing damage if you read the manga and saw Naruto fall into a bunch of sharp stalagmites and take no damage whatsoever. 

Nonetheless, I can concede that Sages can be hurt by Sasuke's blade. It doesn't hurt my actual point. The one about super strong characters having a degree of super toughness to go with it.


----------



## Dr. White (Jan 29, 2016)

They didn't punch *through him* because they lacked Raiton. A pencil can kill high tiers with Raiton. But you clearly see Kisame being *penetrated by the vibrato knife* in the bottom left of the third panel.. there is even blood.




> Kid Lee isn't all that strong.


that Lee had a 3.5 in strength, and his 3.0 version could dig his hand into solid ground and uproot a giant tree meters into the air. 3.0 Lee runs at high speeds with multi hundred pound weights on. He kicked a large Tree Trunk in half and made a crater in the ground.

Not buying what you're selling.





> Super-heated metal cuts more easily than cool metal. The regular Shuriken wouldn't have done much of anything to him.


They were literally on fire for a second which is why I said short period. It's not like he bathed them until they turned red and then threw them, and even then once again it really isn't adding penetrative power, more so weakening the material the metal is passing through because of the heat compared to Fuuton/Raiton which act as the main material cutting or piercing (because of sharp wind, and vibrating raiton).

Prove your second claim. It's blatantly contradictory to the portrayal we're given in that scene.





> If you wish to argue that Minato has a special ability that allows his Kunai to be more penetrative than Chidorigatana, I'm okay with that.


idk, maybe it was Fuuton. I don't know. what I do know is that Bee needed to save him and Raikage thanked him. If Raikage could lol at kunai strikes from not super strength dudes like Minato and Kakashi in base then it stands to reason he wouldn't have even literally felt that, and it would have bounced off of his raiton mode. 




> Much diffused.
> 
> So mitigated.
> 
> Wow.


Raiton Flow is basic D Rank shit. Remind me what happened when the A ranked Chidori went up against Ei's B- ranked shroud? The A rank Technique slightly won. Shocker isn't it.


> Looks like base Naruto to me.


He was using SM to track Kakashi's position over a very long distance. We've also never seen Base Naruto move with such speed. I take that as him using the rest of his gathered energy to save Sakura in the nick of time. It's not like sharingan where it last a long time.




> I don't recall actually saying that, but you'd know that Naruto is okay against piercing damage if you read the manga and saw Naruto fall into a bunch of sharp stalagmites and take no damage whatsoever.


You listed Sage users as beastly strong people who automatically benefit in durability against piercing/slashing attacks.

He didn't fall directly onto the point of any of the stalagmites. He fell from a very large distance though, and he didn't feel that.


----------



## Veracity (Jan 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> I can kill you by giving you a deep torso wound. You can't prove Oro's intent was to slice her in half which was your claim and the basis behind your durability argument.
> 
> yes it does. Pick up a sword and then talk. Technique makes a huge difference and Sauce is the wayyy better kenjutsu user.
> 
> ...


You are reaching at this point . Reaching far. You could use that same fallacious argument for anything in the whole manga. Unless stated directly, you don't know any characters intent 100%. But ya know what? Most posters use logic to determine a shinobi's intent; especially in an obvious stipulations like these. 

Where Oro comes at Tsuande with this speed and stabs here in perhaps the most vital part of her body: He was using SM to track Kakashi's position

Then OUTRIGHT tells her to die: He was using SM to track Kakashi's position
Yet we don't know his intent ? 

Lol not I don't need to anytbing about swords in this situation. This isn't a kenjutsu exchange. They literally swung their swords at the same angle in almost an identical situation. Stop acting like "technique" is going to make this sword sharper from the same angled swing. 

Oro and Sasuke have the sane strength stat. Oro actually has better strength feats with his tongue so yeah lol.

He is the composition of a damn snake, why would his arms be physically stronger?

The fact that Oros sword is hyped to be 1000x sharper than sasukes negates the momentum.


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## Rocky (Jan 29, 2016)

Dr. White said:


> They didn't punch *through him* because they lacked Raiton. A pencil can kill high tiers with Raiton. But you clearly see Kisame being *penetrated by the vibrato knife* in the bottom left of the third panel.. there is even blood.



It pierced his _skin_, but the actual cut it gave him can barely be called an injury. 



Dr. White said:


> that Lee had a 3.5 in strength



Which is rather lackluster compared to everyone else I've mentioned. 



Dr. White said:


> Prove your second claim. It's blatantly contradictory to the portrayal we're given in that scene.



Kunai vs. Pre Timeskip Sakura. 

Shuriken are doing next to nothing to Killer B. I give not one single shit about your interpretation of the scene's "portrayal." 



Dr. White said:


> what I do know is that Bee needed to save him



Unless Minato's Kunai was superior to Sasuke's enhanced sword, B didn't "need" to save him. 



Dr. White said:


> Raiton Flow is basic D Rank shit.



Chidorigatana is the same rank as Raiton Chakra Mode. 



Dr. White said:


> He was using SM to track Kakashi's position over a very long distance.



And by the time he got there and saved Sakura, he was no longer in Sage Mode. We don't see his face when saving Sakura. There is no way to prove that it was SM Naruto who was cut. 



Dr. White said:


> You listed Sage users as beastly strong people who automatically benefit in durability against piercing/slashing attacks.



I said they have super durability, which they do...


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## Mercurial (Jan 29, 2016)

Rocky said:


> *Location:* Grass Field
> *Distance:* 5m
> *Mindset:* IC
> *Knowledge:* Manga
> ...



Gai dodges every attempt of Tsunade punching/kicking/grabbing him and hits her easily multiple times, nunchaku Soshuga repeated hits break her neck/head. Omote Renge breaking her neck would be overkill. Gai is too fast and too more swift and skilled for her.

Kakashi dodges every attempt of Tsunade punching/kicking/grabbing him. He is much much faster than her not to mention he is more swift and skilled in taijutsu. Her physical strength is useless if she can't literally touch him. With the further advantage of the Sharingan precognition, for Kakashi is easy to dodge her attack and put a kunai through her head, between her eyes. Not to mention he can cut her head off, if a nearly dead Zabuza could cut a normal person's head off with a kunai wielded with his fucking mouth, a fresh Kakashi can surely cut Tsunade's head off with an arm swing.


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## Jad (Jan 31, 2016)

*Taijutsu*​I don't think I really need to emphasize this point much, for all the skills shown in the manga, what's stated in the Databook are just bonus. Anyways, Kishimoto likened Gai to Bruce Lee and Jackie Chan, so there is that. The only statement for Tsunade in comparison was her 'Heavnly Kick' which was described as an artistic display of hand to hand combat (I paraphrased), and her 5 out of 5 Taijutsu stat. I've looked over her Databook entries, and that was the only findings I could uncover. Same with the manga, really no reference to her skill in Taijutsu, but rather her 'monstrous strength', which is all chakra enhanced. As for Gai:

 "Specialized Technique: all taijutsu" - Databook 1
 "He is not only good at taijutsu..." - Databook 4
 "A master of hand-to-hand combat" - Databook 3
 Lee is even called a Master of Taijutsu - twice (Databook 3 and 4)
 Than you got an assortment of statemetnts in the Databook saying "Powerful Taijutsu technique" for just about every Base move he has in his arsenal.
"Might Guy, the greatest taijutsu user in Konoha village" - Databook 3
"Madara, saying he is the greatest Taijutsu fighter his ever witnessed". Only a supreme master of Taijutsu could invent and execute such brutal techniques from the group up.
 I thought it was interesting how Gai also barehanded (grappled) blocked a ninjutsu user, who blows people up by punching them.
5 in Taijutsu - Databook 3
*Weaponary*​
 Without looking, was able to hit the middle of the pin wheel with a Kunai. I guess to show how accurate he is.
 Both in Taijutsu and weaponry usage, could attack Obito twice before he could do anything to touch Gai. Thus impressing KCM Naruto, and avoiding an attack Naruto would have gotten attacked by. I say 'Taijutsu and weaponry' usage, as the Databook for Soshuuga states 'freely employs taijutsu with his favorite weapon'. So they go hand-in-hand.
 Tsunade was unaware of Orochimaru's tongue attack that came from afar and got to her surprisingly. Funnily enough, in comparison, Gai whilst focusing on multiple enemies, could still notice Naruto from afar (but a speck) was in trouble. Let alone block an attack from Obito, from behind. I bring this up because, Gai's Soshuuga which is stated, and proven, to quote 'The ferocious whirling then attacks enemies from any direction' should be able to do the same to Tsunade, like Orochimaru's attack caught her off guard. Especially since it's a very unorthodox weapon that can change direction at any second.
Databook 3 - ''Gai is also highly proficient with weapons".
Databook 4 - "He is not only good at taijutsu, but also at handling weapons".
*Durability & Resilliency*​
 "A body tempered like steel" - Databook 3
 I think it was a good durability feat that he actually did get hit by Kisame's explosive strength that sent him deep within the ocean. Only to shrug it off to execute the 6th Gate. 
 By war arc standards, he survived an explosion that was about the same size as 10% Katsuya, at point blank range. While not Hirudora fully executed, an explosion nonetheless. He did need about 10-15 second breather, but he went on to execute 8 Gates. Resiliency and durable.
Any resiliency feats really just fall under his 8 Gates usage, and the fact he could execute Night Guy at probably his worse condition imaginable. Gai could have easily succumbed to the pain the moment he used Evening Elephant step 1.
*Strength*​This section is to only highlight how many times Kishimoto keeps referencing back to Gai's strength. Boulders being broken to dust, strength enemies even question.

5 in strength - Databook 3
 Konoha Kaiganshou:  "A special taijutsu attack that hits hard enough to easily crushes and destroy rocks into dust." - Databook 4
Obito questioned Base Gai's strength as he leveled a massive boulder into small blocks. 
"that blow has power able to break even rocks". - Databook 4
"taijutsu that can shatter boulders" - Databook 3
"smashing his enemy with overwhelming strength" - Databook 3
" unbelievable speed and power" - Databook 3
 "Supreme strength" - Databook 3
 "mashing his enemy with overwhelming strength" - Databook 3
 "Exceptional power and speed!" - Databook 2
 1St Gate - Omote Renge: "stands a one-hit-kill flower!!" - Databook 1

*Base Gai's Speed*​Let's look at Gai's base speed in comparison to Shrouded Naruto. Naruto was half the distance closer to Obito then Gai [7]. Not only that, but he started running before Gai did [8]. Gai had potentially only started running at this point [9]. Yet reached Obito when Naruto's real body caught up to Obito's [10].

Not only that, but Naruto was unable to maneuver away from Obito's touch [11]. Remember, Itachi engaged Naruto in much the same away Obito did, and Naruto could dodge it [12]. _second panel_. Yet without help, even impressing Naruto, was Gai able to react to Obito [13]. 

Also you can see, Obito and Naruto are relatively in the same ball park of speed [14].

The  also *exemplifies* his _quality_ of speed quite well:

Was able to at high enough speeds close the distance fast enough on Obito, who was closer to Naruto, and save Naruto in the nick of time.
 "_unbelievable speed_" (Ironically a lot of people in the Battledome don't believe Gai's base speed)
 "his target cannot even see him in the instant before his kick lands" - Databook 2
 "Exceptional power and speed!" - Databook 2
 "_speed that not a single person can follow his movement_"
 "_His speed lets no one escape_"
 "_He dodges like a flash_" - DB3
 _5_ in speed - Databook 3.
 Lee in base was able to dodge Kimimaro's attack that throws blows that leave after image s(both illustrated visually and explained as such). The Databook than goes on to say, without saying, "His[Gai] bodily movement is way above that of Lee. This is in one word the fruits of ‘effort.’" - Databook 2. Imagine Gai dodging Tsunade's attacks in such a way.
 1St Gate - Omote Renge: "ultra-high level, special taijutsu is none else than his off-the-charts speed"- Databook 1

*Gai's Reflexes*​
I think some of Gai's reactions and reflexes are overlooked, I would like to show you some of them. On top of his fights in Taijtusu, these ones stand out I guess:

Databook stats he has fast as lightning reflexes
Here Gai was able to react from an attack from behind by Obito [1]
Gai was able to notice a twitch under-water from Kisame's finger, so he is quite perceptive - reacting to it quickly [2]
Gai was able to move in-between the mid-kamui-warp of his Nunchuk's [3]. Imagine Gai dodging one of Tsunade's linear attacks in the same fashion.
Gai moved his body to an angle before Naruto got to him at the EXACT and right time. Notice how Gai's hair is moving one way suggesting movement, and Naruto's hand slaps Gai's shoulder and a 'SFX-impact' appears on it. And Naruto is NO slouch in speed and has no reason to not go fast in this situation against Obito [4][5]
 The big one: Could percieve time through his space bending speed. Let alone his other gated speeds. Remember Raikage needs to stimulate through ninjustu his nerve transmission to use his speeds. Gai has trained them already.
Also notice how here KCM Naruto couldn't react to Obito [6] the same way he reacted to Itachi's strikes [7] (second panel). Notice the head, he'd of been warped by Obito. Whereas in Gai's taijutsu exchange he could react to Obito.

*Examples of Tsunade Fighting*​
These examples show attacks from Tsunade while she is in the air of some form, or leaping in for an attack, which is dangerous against someone who can attack while you are vulnerable in such a state.

1. Forward jump/leap Punch
2. Forward jump punch in the air
3. Axe jump kick

I mean countering any of her moves while she is in the air will spell royal trouble.  Especially if Gai is the faster of the two. Her Taijutsu has no versatility, it's one punch and her leaning in. Almost like rushing in hoping to hit. I mean in this scan, she isn't even looking at Kabuto, she leans in too far that her head is looking at the ground, almost like she won't see a counter attack coming if someone dodged it.  Again here, she is looking on the ground. She isn't counter ready with her fighting style. It definitely isn't recommended in any Mixed Martial Arts schools I can tell you that much. Her technique revolves around getting one good shot in while taking multiple shots in turn. The fact is, Gai has shown he can move his upper body to the left or right while a Kamui warp of his Nunchuku's during and before it finished. You replace Tsunade throwing a punch, and with Gai's quick as lightning reflexes, heightened body speed, then only conclusion is he dodges those blows like Muhammed Ali. I mean even in reference to Lee dodging attacks that are thrown at after image inducing speed multiple times, and as explained, Gai has much higher bodily movement, he dodges her linear blows in a similar fashion. Especially since Tsunade hardly follows through after one punch. As exemplified in my evidence, time and time again.

Here she couldn't even block an attack while her muscles were ripped, she didn't even counter. Plus all that technique did was to lower her strength. Especially if you consider after that she was able to get up and hit Kabuto. Almost like nothing happened to her, so it can't be really used as an excuse for inability to perform, here and here. Even here she looks away with her hands up, thinking she can block the attack.

Her reaction from an attack at sort of a distance was pretty poor as well, being grabbed by Orochimaru's tongue. This was also after her Taijutsu fight with Kabuto. This as like I have stated, could be one of Gai's Nunchuku's which can attack from 'any direction', like it nearly caught Obito off guard.

Again, just a very linear, direct punch, Orochimaru and Kabuto effortlessly dodging her breaking the wall. Almost intimidating. I mean you guys always say she can catch someone being off balanced or jumping in the air while she punches the ground. Here is the scan showing that very same scenario, same with her dropping an axe kick on the ground. Nothing.

Here she is just running, no disappearing or appearing act, very linear. This can be dodged easily by Gai, say through Shunshin if you want. As stated above, all her linear attacks can be easily exploited by Gai, especially with the reach of his Nunchuku weapons, and if need be, 1st Gate Kunai through the head. This is ontop of the fact she has a 3.5 in Stamina, which by all means Gai can outlast her without the Yin seal. Considering she has to keek up appearances and used Chakra enhanced blows.

Anyone, feel free to use my references, both for Gai and Tsunade if need be.​


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