# Kamui Bros Vs The Flying Thunder Gods: Haxx Battles 1!!



## Hi no Ishi (Jul 13, 2017)

MS Obito and MS Kakashi 
(War Arc feats, fully rested.) 

Vs 

Hokage Minato and Hokage Tobirama. (Fully rested and prepped)

Location: Forest of death

Knowledge: Kamui Bros know they are fighting Hokage, Thunder Gods know they are fighting MS shinobi.

Edit: Obito starts unmarked ya wise guys!

Scenario 2: BM Minato and Rinne Obito replace their weaker selves.
Full Knowledge for both teams.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Mar55 (Jul 13, 2017)

Team 2, both rounds. Kakashi is worthless here, and Obito can't deal with both.

You could at least allow the Gedo for round 2.

Reactions: Like 1 | Disagree 1


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## Bonly (Jul 13, 2017)

Minato already has Obito marked so Minato can take him out when he's ready and then either Tobi or Minato can easily take out Kakashi so Team Hiraishin got this in the bag


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## Mar55 (Jul 13, 2017)

Bonly said:


> Minato already has Obito marked so Minato can take him out when he's ready


I kinda figured it was implied that he's unsealed for sake of this battle. Since, any match with Minato and Obito would automatically be a mismatch, for that exact reason. Especially with Tobirama here, as they already linked seals canonically.


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## Bonly (Jul 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> I kinda figured it was implied that he's unsealed for sake of this battle. Since, any match with Minato and Obito would automatically be a mismatch, for that exact reason. Especially with Tobirama here, as they already linked seals canonically.



If it's a mismatch then it's a mismatch. I never assume Minato's mark is gone unless it's Juubi Jin Obito upon which the mark did disappear or unless it's stated in the OP.


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## Mar55 (Jul 13, 2017)

Bonly said:


> If it's a mismatch then it's a mismatch. I never assume Minato's mark is gone unless it's Juubi Jin Obito upon which the mark did disappear or unless it's stated in the OP.


Benefit of the doubt, that's all.


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## Bonly (Jul 13, 2017)

Mar55 said:


> Benefit of the doubt, that's all.



More power to ya


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 13, 2017)

Grumble Grumble, OP edited.


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## Mar55 (Jul 13, 2017)

Bonly said:


> More power to ya





Hi no Ishi said:


> Grumble Grumble, OP edited.


You have to adjust your position.


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## Bonly (Jul 13, 2017)

In that case Team Hiraishin will still win. Minato's still faster then Obito which means he can mark him still and with the help of Tobi, he shouldn't have to many problems. Once marked Obito can be taken out easily and then either one can take out Kakashi


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## ARGUS (Jul 13, 2017)

Hokage take a dump on these fools


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## Charmed (Jul 14, 2017)

Uhmm I don't know...
But Kamui is faster when Kakashi and Obito are together right?

So I guess Kamui wins.


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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

Someone tell me what stops Kakashi from using his paralyzation clone or large AOE Kamui?

Reactions: Funny 1


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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

Team instant-teleportation win.
Kakashi is basically non factor here.


Charmed said:


> Uhmm I don't know...
> But Kamui is faster when Kakashi and Obito are together right?
> 
> So I guess Kamui wins.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 14, 2017)

Kakashi is completly surpassed and Obito can't handle both Minato&Tobirama which means Hokage duo wins.

Same goes for scenario 2, KCM/BM > Obito's Rinnegan mastery/usage which means Team Minato wins even easier.


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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

People are saying that Kakashi is a non-factor here, yet there is no proof of that being the case. The only way they can out-speed him in this fight is via teleportation; however, Kakashi always uses clones when going up against top shinobi, and this situation wouldn't be any different. 

There is also this:
aegon-rokudo's
Link removed

Even though Minato won the fight, Tobi clearly had no problem following his non-teleportation speed, which means Kakashi won't have a problem either. Also, nothing stops Kakashi from using kamui on the Minato's kunai on the field. All of this doesn't even count the fact that an older, and stronger Tobi couldn't even follow Kakashi's kamui at times. 

The downplay is strong in this thread.

Reactions: Like 2


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## hbcaptain (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> People are saying that Kakashi is a non-factor here, yet there is no proof of that being the case. The only way they can out-speed him in this fight is via teleportation; however, Kakashi always uses clones when going up against top shinobi, and this situation wouldn't be any different.
> 
> There is also this:
> C4 can be located with his sharingan and simply evaded
> ...


Teen Obito is far stronger than War Kakashi in every single aspect.


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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> People are saying that Kakashi is a non-factor here, yet there is no proof of that being the case. The only way they can out-speed him in this fight is via teleportation; however, Kakashi always uses clones when going up against top shinobi, and this situation wouldn't be any different.
> 
> There is also this:
> 
> ...


The speed of a single Kamui warp was canonically slower than the speed of the TSB. Kakashi and Obito both had to combin their Kamui to outspeed the TSB. Same TSBs Minato trolled with Hiraishin by attaching them to his back then warping them away before they could do any damage to his body.
That means the possibility of Kakashi landing his Kamui on either Hokages close to zero.
Hiraishin is instant, Kamui is not.
Kakashi may be able to use clones, but he's up against two of the most skillful sensors in the manga who can use clones themselves.
He may be able to warp Hiraishin Kunais, but that would be nothing more than wasting chakra. Minato has a large number of Kunais, and he can still mark the ground, regular Kunais, his shadow clones ... etc he can mark anything, so that tactic is useless.
Kakashi can't engage with either hokages without getting marked, he can't touch them even with Kamui. And he can't defend against their assault when they come near him.
Don't see what Kakashi can do here tbh, will due respect.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

I didn't even mention Hiraishin Goshen Mawashi.


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Kakashi warps them both, while Obito creates a diversion. In dealing with two Kamui users, Madara's strategy i.e. engage them at the same time, is the effective one; any momentary delay on Team-Hiraishin's part would result in their loss—

... The knowledge heavily favors Kamui-users too. Obito engages them, since his right-eye Kamui is perfectly suited for such tasks; Kakashi warps them from the sidelines. It's an easy win, since only a minor distraction is needed on their part, makes its unlikely for Team-Hiraishin to win—both scenarios.

Kakashi's Kamui has tackled Hiraishin without failure, and with added element of _uncertainity_ to his left-eye variant, Tobirama and Minato have all the makings of being _unable_ to negate it. Kakashi is the actual threat here, since his Kamui-variant is _offense-oriented_, opposed to Obito's _defense-oriented_.

Reactions: Like 1 | Funny 8 | Winner 3


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> ^^


Concession accepted.

Reactions: Like 1


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## hbcaptain (Jul 14, 2017)

They really must add the "hilarous option", "funny"  isn't enough in some cases.

Reactions: Agree 1 | Funny 1


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## The_Conqueror (Jul 14, 2017)

Obito cannot deal with both Minato and Tobirama. 
Minato (≥)Obito>Tobirama>Kakashi

It would be hard for kakashi to survive in the battle with full knowledge to both sides



BM Minato solos in second round


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 14, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Kakashi warps them both, while Obito creates a diversion. In dealing with two Kamui users, Madara's strategy i.e. engage them at the same time, is the effective one; any momentary delay on Team-Hiraishin's part would result in their loss—
> 
> ... The knowledge heavily favors Kamui-users too. Obito engages them, since his right-eye Kamui is perfectly suited for such tasks; Kakashi warps them from the sidelines. It's an easy win, since only a minor distraction is needed on their part, makes its unlikely for Team-Hiraishin to win—both scenarios.
> 
> Kakashi's Kamui has tackled Hiraishin without failure, and with added element of _uncertainity_ to his left-eye variant, Tobirama and Minato have all the makings of being _unable_ to negate it. Kakashi is the actual threat here, since his Kamui-variant is _offense-oriented_, opposed to Obito's _defense-oriented_.



I love how people keep ignoring the fact that a pseudo Hiraishin was used after Kamui was placed on the Gedo and it still failed to save it from getting dismembered. Kakashi's left eye offensive Kamui obviously works differently from Obito's right eye which needs physical contact with whatever the user is warping while the left eye was even able to warp an ST portal/void(Kaguyas) which is what summoning and hiraishin use to teleport(per the databook).

Also @Cosmos, if I may... you seem to be off with the TSB speed post. 

Obito's self kamui warp is *canonically *slower than him warping other objects, a speed which Kakashi already beat when he tricked him by warping Naruto's whole body in a split second before Obito finished warping the stake back to the real world. 

Madara stated he doubled his self warping speed so I am not sure why you are attributing that speed to the left eye? That's without mentioning that TSB's speed are not faster than Kunai's as seen by Lee and Kakashi's own throw Kunais, and that a head sized Kamui would be faster than a body sized Kamui.

OT: I would 50/50 chance for each team, The Hiraishin bros definitely have the upperhand on the offensive bar left eye Kamui, but the forest of death makes it the perfect place for Kakashi's feints and traps that even got a Rinnegan user. Obito also has much more experience with his powers so I don't see him getting Hiraishin'ed easily, specially when he can faint and attack to wait for Minato/Tobirama's ST and then immediately counter like he did to Danzo's bodyguards. Tobirama is more troublesome as he is a mix of Minato with some of Kakashi's tactical in him so I can see him pulling off something as well.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 14, 2017)

Kamui duo get bitched

Minato shits on obito whether he starts marked or not

And kakashi is a non factor as he cant visually keep up with these speedsters with teleportation added in so kamui sniping isnt gonna happen...War arc kakashi is also blind as a bat and needs to be within arms reach (hyperbole kakashi fans...Calm down) of his opponent to warp them with kamui...All of his best kamui feats are used in that manner...When his opponents are close to him.

Also...FTG can escape kamui mid warp unlike the juubi summoning soooo many kakashi fans like to site...Where kakashi was 2 feet away from his target...And still failed to tag the whole thing with kamui anyway

Even IF kakashi tagged minato or tobirama with a snipe (which is a big goddamn if) they can still just FTG out and be totally fine

Minato didnt lose an arm when he left the worm hole...So FTG is clearly different from regular summoning in that regard.

Kamuis offensive properties are all but useless in the face f FTG, and its defensive property is straight up too slow against FTG

And Kakashi doesnt even GET a defensive property

Team Kage Thunder Gods decimate here

As for scenario 2...BM minato shit blitzes and/or just straight up shits

Neg diff

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## Serene Grace (Jul 14, 2017)

Minato and Tobirama stomp this tbh, I'd day mid diff because if Obito. Minato has already outspeed Kamui on panel, when he fought Obito[1] this was whilst he had absolutely no knowledge of the technique, and was in _mid warp_, and then theres the whole instance and interaction with Juudara where Minato was able to do multiple actios before Kakashi could get off his warp 

Hirshian being dependant on reactions, and we know both of these guys reactions is so _far_ ahead of these guys to the point where it's actually embrassing. Minato being able to react to one of the fastest Shinobi being V2 Ay,(Minato also reacted to 8 gates guy if we're gonna pick and choose feats ), and Tobirama reacted to Juubito's shunshin and tagged him multiple times, same Juubito that shit blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke shinobi that are above Kakashi in physical reactions nonetheless mental reactions.
On the offchance that Tobirama is attacking Obito and Kakashi attempts a Kamui warp Minato warps Tobirama to his position to avoid it, or the other way around.

The moment Minato and Tobirama tag each other as well as there clones, kunais and the duo close in the gap, it's _game over_. FTG is sadly a hard counter to Kamui since it's faster than the technique, and allows one to attack the person right after.

Second scenario:

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## Complete_Ownage (Jul 14, 2017)

It's already known and proven that FTG holds the slight advantage over Kamui in a heads up situation.  Both Minato or Tobirama can dismiss Obito and kakashi will eventually get destroyed. The FTG duo can also tag each other adding a huge advantage to both offense and defense abilities.

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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> And kakashi is a non factor as he cant visually keep up with these speedsters with teleportation added in so kamui sniping isnt gonna happen...War arc kakashi is also blind as a bat and needs to be within arms reach (hyperbole kakashi fans...Calm down) of his opponent to warp them with kamui...All of his best kamui feats are used in that manner...When his opponents are close to him.
> 
> Also...FTG can escape kamui mid warp unlike the juubi summoning soooo many kakashi fans like to site...Where kakashi was 2 feet away from his target...And still failed to tag the whole thing with kamui anyway



Kakashi's best Kamui feats during the war arc were before he stated he couldn't aim at a far distance, so where are you getting that his eyesight was throughout the whole battle. Any and all arguments you can make about this have to deal with feats after he made that statement.




> Even IF kakashi tagged minato or tobirama with a snipe (which is a big goddamn if) they can still just FTG out and be totally fine
> 
> Minato didnt lose an arm when he left the worm hole...So FTG is clearly different from regular summoning in that regard.



Obito needs physical contact with every opponent he has tried warping, whereas the left eye creates an ST barrier around the object being warped so not a surprise Minato did not loose a limb.

Also it is similar to Kuchiyose, read the sentence all the way at the bottom.


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> I love how people keep ignoring the fact that a pseudo Hiraishin was used after Kamui was placed on the Gedo and it still failed to save it from getting dismembered.


As I understand, Hiraishin is just a combat-friendly application of Kuchiyose no Jutsu. However, in principle, the two are the same techniques i.e. the animal and Hiraishin-user both get transported exactly the same. I suspect, this is the bit they found. . . funny. 



> Kakashi's left eye offensive Kamui obviously works differently from Obito's right eye which needs physical contact with whatever the user is warping while the left eye was even able to warp an ST portal/void(Kaguyas)


This is what I meant by 'added element of uncertainity' since Kakashi's left-eye Kamui is not constrained by the mechanical limitation that Obito's right-eye Kamui has: the physical touch i.e. the user makes a clear, observable and physical gesture to capture the target. The only visual indicator with the left-eye Kamui is the realization that you just got warped.



> which is what summoning and hiraishin use to teleport(per the databook).


Is that in the Fourth Databook? Regardless, it still stands that summoning doesn't help against Kamui.



> Also @Cosmos, if I may... you seem to be off with the TSB speed post.
> 
> Obito's self kamui warp is *canonically *slower than him warping other objects, a speed which Kakashi already beat when he tricked him by warping Naruto's whole body in a split second before Obito finished warping the stake back to the real world.
> 
> Madara stated he doubled his self warping speed so I am not sure why you are attributing that speed to the left eye? That's without mentioning that TSB's speed are not faster than Kunai's as seen by Lee and Kakashi's own throw Kunais, and that a head sized Kamui would be faster than a body sized Kamui.


I didn't bother with a reply because it's been addressed countless times before, yet always ignored. It's hilarious, but also troubling that Obito himself makes that mention ["Inter-dimensional travelling is too slow"] after it fails.



WorldsStrongest said:


> Minato didnt lose an arm when he left the worm hole...


That's because Minato _instinctively_ jumped _just before_ Obito activated Kamui. Hence, the scene being extremely slowed down, and him 'falling on his head'.



> So FTG is clearly different from regular summoning in that regard.


It's established, Hiraishin is basically _*reverse* _Kuchiyose i.e. the same thing Fukasaku used to transport himself and Naruto to Myoubukuzan. The user jumping to the marker is essentially the user _summoning himself_ to the marker. Earlier Hiraishin depictions are all accompanied by the same smoke effects, you see with Kuchiyose no Jutsu.

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## Trojan (Jul 14, 2017)

Minato solos both of them. Tobirama is not needed really.

Reactions: Like 1 | Winner 2


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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

Double Kamui barely escaped the TSB. Barely.

A single Kamui warp was too slow to escape the TSB


@Crimson flames. Yes I use those feats because that entire scene was to emphasise the speed of Kamui. If it was faster than the TSB Obito wouldn't have asked Kakashi to combin the power of both eyes.
And I'm gonna need a proof that self warping is slower than warping objects/people. Because Obito's self warping speed was equal to Kakashi's ranged Kamui speed, which is why it got doubled.
@Cherry, you got it.

Reactions: Like 3 | Agree 1


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 14, 2017)

Hasan said:


> That's because Minato _instinctively_ jumped _just before_ Obito activated Kamui.


No...No he did not...

He left the worm hole the technique created after obito grabbed him and attempted to warp him

I posted the scan

You can clearly see minato in the worm hole and then you can clearly see him escape it totally unscathed

Hell in the middle panel on the left...Hes being distorted by the wormhole and kinda looks like some form of creepy ghost...


Hasan said:


> It's established, Hiraishin is basically _*reverse* _Kuchiyose i.e. the same thing Fukasaku used to transport himself and Naruto to Myoubukuzan. The user jumping to the marker is essentially the user _summoning himself_ to the marker. *Earlier Hiraishin depictions are all accompanied by the same smoke effects, you see with Kuchiyose no Jutsu.*


Yeah i know how FTG works thanks

And clearly its much faster and/or possesses a unique property that allows it to escape other S/T ninjutsus like kamui for instance...Cuz ya know...Canon

Minato escaped a *point blank* kamui warp and *didnt* lose an arm

The gedo mazo escaped a *near* point blank kamui warp and *did lose an arm*

This tells me their methods of escape differed to a degree and clearly minatos method is superior.

@Bold im pretty sure thats false

1st use of hiraishin in the manga and theres no cloud


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> No...No he did not...
> 
> He left the worm hole the technique created after obito grabbed him and attempted to warp him
> 
> ...



Read that scan once more, and _fully—
_
*Obito: *_"He got away... so fast... Next time, I will take him a lot quicker... as soon as we touch."
_
There is no point in that, if Minato managed mid-warp; Minato himself conceded. His 'escape' is due to a delay, which is evidently Obito's pronouncement of victory, and _that is when Minato jumped_. That is why the warp is _slowed down_ [depicted in two panels]; you still see it in effect, but Minato jumped before Kamui activated. On Minato's part, was a blind jump, which is why you see him disoriented after the jump.



> Yeah i know how FTG works thanks
> 
> And clearly its much faster and/or possesses a unique property that allows it to escape other S/T ninjutsus like kamui for instance...Cuz ya know...Canon
> 
> ...


No. That should tell you, you are not reading that page correctly. Otherwise, you are saying Kishimoto made an error on the very same page, which is impossible.



> @Bold im pretty sure thats false
> 
> 1st use of hiraishin in the manga and theres no cloud


What are you talking about? There's a smoke right there, along with the scan in @Crimson Flam3s post. You also see it multiple times, during the Obito fight [1, 2]



Cosmos said:


> And I'm gonna need a proof that self warping is slower than warping objects/people. Because Obito's self warping speed was equal to Kakashi's ranged Kamui speed, which is why it got doubled.
> @Cherry, you got it.



Certainly. Obito, too, says it in the very page you posted.

Reactions: Funny 1 | Winner 3


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 14, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> Double Kamui barely escaped the TSB. Barely.
> 
> A single Kamui warp was too slow to escape the TSB
> 
> ...



It isn't equal. It's slower than his own regular Kamui speed which already got outspeed by Kakashi.

Obito himself makes the statement previous to that scene. Regular Kunai's matching the TSB's speed prove that they wouldn't be a problem considering he warped the faster Susanoo arrows.

Anyways here is the panel


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Cherry said:


> Minato and Tobirama stomp this tbh, I'd day mid diff because if Obito. Minato has already outspeed Kamui on panel, when he fought Obito[1] this was whilst he had absolutely no knowledge of the technique, and was in _mid warp_,


. . . I believe, I already addressed this. I am baffled how you people read it as _mid-warp_ when Obito _immediately after_ makes a mention of warping Minato quickly.



> and then theres the whole instance and interaction with Juudara where Minato was able to do multiple actios before Kakashi could get off his warp


You forgot to mention, that instance shows Kamui > Hiraishin.



> Hirshian being dependant on reactions, and we know both of these guys reactions is so _far_ ahead of these guys to the point where it's actually embrassing. Minato being able to react to one of the fastest Shinobi being V2 Ay,(Minato also reacted to 8 gates guy if we're gonna pick and choose feats ), and Tobirama reacted to Juubito's shunshin and tagged him multiple times, same Juubito that shit blitzed both Naruto and Sasuke shinobi that are above Kakashi in physical reactions nonetheless mental reactions.
> On the offchance that Tobirama is attacking Obito and Kakashi attempts a Kamui warp Minato warps Tobirama to his position to avoid it, or the other way around.


If we're picking and choosing—
​
_Juubi Jinchuuriki_ Madara thinks Kamui will succeed, should the scenario depicted above plays out, so he attacks them at the same time (and the reason for citation in my OP). Obito's right-eye Kamui is perfect for creating diversions; if he engages both of them, this will create an opportunity for Kakashi to warp them.



> The moment Minato and Tobirama tag each other as well as there clones, kunais and the duo close in the gap, it's _game over_. FTG is sadly a hard counter to Kamui since it's faster than the technique, and allows one to attack the person right after.


It's possible with Kamui too [1, 2, 3].



> Second scenario:


Kamui is a _transportation technique. _If they can't deal with Kamui with their best _speed_; inclusion of Kyuubi will not make a difference.

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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> It isn't equal. It's slower than hjpg
> own regular Kamui speed which already got outspeed by Kakashi.
> 
> Obito himself makes the statement previous to that scene. Regular Kunai's matching the TSB's speed prove that they wouldn't be a problem considering he warped the faster Susanoo arrows.
> ...


 

They were able to warp at *twice* the speed. Twice = 2x, which means Obito's self warping speed (failed against TSB) = Kakashi's ranged Kamui speed.
Also it has to be the same speed, cuz if one is faster than the other, the double warping won't work, since both Kamui had to be synchronized.

Reactions: Agree 2


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## Geralt-Singh (Jul 14, 2017)

Tobirama solos

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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Never put much stock in that Kamui vs Kuchiyose no Justu because people seem to always ignore variables. Like the time frame in which both techniques were executed isn't illustrated at all and instead is excluded in the space between panels. Therefore you never really know when the transportation of Gedo took place and how it interfered exactly with Kamui. All we know for a fact is that Kamui was used before and it wasn't necessarily a conventional Kuchiyose as the Gedo was _pulled_ from Obito and everyone could watch it happen; which is clearly not the speed at which conventional Kuchiyose is performed. I tend to use more solid feats for Kamui like Sakura being able to notice and react to the barrier before being warped in . Jokes aside, we have direct confirmation of Kakashi's Kamui's speed. It's exactly as fast as Obito's self warp speed which in turn is slower than the speed at which he warped objects as Hasan pointed out. I don't think that's fast enough to catch Minato or Tobirama before they warp away with FTG.

OT: Clearly the FTG users win. Not only portrayed at a higher level but they operate on a faster level and clearly speed is going to be the be all here. The moment bunshin come out, this game is pretty much over. Bunshin serve a greater problem for the Kamui users than the FTG users because the former can teleport to their bunshin and use the mutually revolving technique to switch place in the heat of combat with each other or a clone. Not to mention Kakashi has to stand in place and focus to increase the effectiveness of Kamui and if he warps a clone( if he can with their high reactions) then he's basically wasting chakra; and he doesn't have Naruto or medical shinobi to help him out here. I'm going with Tobirama and Minato, low-mid difficulty.

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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> The speed of a single Kamui warp was canonically slower than the speed of the TSB. Kakashi and Obito both had to combin their Kamui to outspeed the TSB. Same TSBs Minato trolled with Hiraishin by attaching them to his back then warping them away before they could do any damage to his body.
> That means the possibility of Kakashi landing his Kamui on either Hokages close to zero.
> Hiraishin is instant, Kamui is not.
> Kakashi may be able to use clones, but he's up against two of the most skillful sensors in the manga who can use clones themselves.
> ...



Minato's TSB (which is faster than Tobirama's) was shown to be faster than kid Obito's kamui, which is slower than Kakashi's, so you have no point there. 

Kakashi has successfully used clones against both Itachi & Nagato, so he'd have no problem tricking Minato or Tobirama. All it takes is for them to hit one lighting clone, and then they're fucked. 

By the end of  the war arc, Kakashi's AOE with kamui could cover the GM statue, so using it to get rid of Minato's kunai wouldn't do anything to his chakra pool; and Minato doesn't have enough speed without TSB to make marking the ground a real option. 

Prove that Kakashi couldn't engage without getting marked. Minato's feat against Obito was done while Obito was a KID still. Both Obito and Kakashi only got stronger & faster since then, and we seen from Kakashi's fight with Obito that Kakashi is Obito's physical superior. 
tackled Hiraishin without failure
tackled Hiraishin without failure
tackled Hiraishin without failure

Not to mention Kakshi's genjutsu is also on the same level as Obito's by the end of the war arc:
tackled Hiraishin without failure

So why don't you or one of the other Minato/Tobirama supporters show me where Kakashi wouldn't be able to engage without being marked?

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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Minato's TSB (which is faster than Tobirama's) was shown to be faster than kid Obito's kamui, which is slower than Kakashi's, so you have no point there.
> 
> Kakashi has successfully used clones against both Itachi & Nagato, so he'd have no problem tricking Minato or Tobirama. All it takes is for them to hit one lighting clone, and then they're fucked.
> 
> ...



FTG*. And Tobirama and Minato both possess FTG which is the same speed. Neither one can be faster than the other.

He used them on Deva and Asura not Nagato himself. He was also bunshin feinted by Zabuza, so just because he can bunshin feint high level shinobi doesn't mean he can't be feinted himself. Minato and Tobirama are not only smarter/more skilled than Zabuza but they possses the easiest from of clone feinting through FTG.

Minato and Tobirama can mark clones making that entire tactic null and void. Kakashi also can't just warp something massive without it taking a massive hit on his chakra and vision.

Tobirama tagged JJ Obito during mid-flicker, so Kakashi gets stomped in CQC against that man; especially when Tobirama can teleport away with a simple thought.

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## Android (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Minato's TSB (which is faster than Tobirama's) was shown to be faster than kid Obito's kamui, which is slower than Kakashi's, so you have no point there.
> 
> Kakashi has successfully used clones against both Itachi & Nagato, so he'd have no problem tricking Minato or Tobirama. All it takes is for them to hit one lighting clone, and then they're fucked.
> 
> ...


I'm pretty sure you mean FTG, not TSB.
Anyway, Minato's Hiraishin and Tobirama's are the same as far as speed goes, Hiraishin is Hiraishin, it's instant. Instant can't be faster than instant. The only difference is in the activation time and that depends on the reactions of the user, and not only is Hiraishin instant while Kamui isn't, but both Tobirama and Minato are physically faster than these two and have better reactions speed.
Kakashi feinted Itachi and Shurado + Tendo, non of whom are sensors, nor teleporters. Even if (and that's a big ass if) he clone feinted either hokages, he still can't touch them due to the massive gap in speed.
Kakashi will get tagged easily if he engages with either hokages, in CQC the one with better reactions is the one who will come out on top. Kakashi isn't faster than A or Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito, so the second he goes for an attack he gets dodged and marked. From there he's under their mercy.

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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> FTG*. And Tobirama and Minato both possess FTG which is the same speed. Neither one can be faster than the other.
> 
> He used them on Deva and Asura not Nagato himself. He was also bunshin feinted by Zabuza, so just because he can bunshin feint high level shinobi doesn't mean he can't be feinted himself. Minato and Tobirama are not only smarter/more skilled than Zabuza but they possses the easiest from of clone feinting through FTG.
> 
> ...



The moment you have to use Kakashi vs. Zabuza as a reference, it shows you have no real point.

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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> The moment you have to use Kakashi vs. Zabuza as a reference, it shows you have no real point.


Explain. Kakashi's intelligence and bunshin feinting abilities have not increased since Part 1. He feinted Itachi like 40 chapters after that and you are using that as reference lol.


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Never put much stock in that Kamui vs Kuchiyose no Justu because people seem to always ignore variables. Like the time frame in which both techniques were executed isn't illustrated at all and instead is excluded in the space between panels. Therefore you never really know when the transportation of Gedo took place and how it interfered exactly with Kamui. All we know for a fact is that Kamui was used before and it wasn't necessarily a conventional Kuchiyose as the Gedo was _pulled_ from Obito and everyone could watch it happen; which is clearly not the speed at which conventional Kuchiyose is performed.


It's about the same time. . . evident from the panel, Kakashi's original intention was take out its head, but you see a deviation, and Kamui's barrier space manifesting on its right.



> I tend to use more solid feats for Kamui like Sakura being able to notice and react to the barrier before being warped in .


Hardly indicative of anything.



Cosmos said:


> They were able to warp at *twice* the speed. Twice = 2x, which means Obito's self warping speed (failed against TSB) = Kakashi's ranged Kamui speed.
> Also it has to be the same speed, cuz if one is faster than the other, the double warping won't work, since both Kamui had to be synchronized.





> Jokes aside, we have direct confirmation of Kakashi's Kamui's speed. It's exactly as fast as Obito's self warp speed which in turn is slower than the speed at which he warped objects as Hasan pointed out. I don't think that's fast enough to catch Minato or Tobirama before they warp away with FTG.


The interdimensional jump was slow enough that Konan could redirect the surrounding explosive tags at Obito. Kakashi has shown to warp things way faster than that (see below).

Kakashi sped the interdimensional jump, that's it [In fact, both Panda's and aegon-rokudo's translations say 'jumped' at the double speed]. It's more Obito's Kamui (x) and Kakashi's Kamui (y) resulted in x + x  than x + y speed. And when it's the left-eye Kamui, it's y + y than x + y.
​

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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 14, 2017)

Cosmos said:


> They were able to warp at *twice* the speed. Twice = 2x, which means Obito's self warping speed (failed against TSB) = Kakashi's ranged Kamui speed.
> Also it has to be the same speed, cuz if one is faster than the other, the double warping won't work, since both Kamui had to be synchronized.



Dude, twice the speed. *Twice his self warping speed*. He doubled his self warping speed by having a synchronized simultaneous activation, it simulated having both eyes.

If Obito had both eyes, his self warping Kamui, and long range Kamui speed would double, but his self warping speed would still be slower than warping something else as that's simply the fact of how his ST works.

Read the third panel.


@Veracity  Tobirama and Minato are certainly not novices when it comes to feinting and smarts, specially Tobirama, that's true. But is it out of this real that someone who feinted Itachi and Pain would be able to feint them specially with a raiton clone?

To say that he has no chance at all is being ignorant of all the feats showed by the manga, and saying the same for the Hiraishin duo would be ignorant as well.

The difference being that kakashi is depicted as a tactical fighter so thinking that he would charge in to get slaughtered is quite hilarious. Given that he even had time to set a trap for deva path and thats the way he always works like Choza says. I see him leading either of the duo into a trap and or a clone more times than not. That's not to say the duo couldn't do the same, but I see Kakashi waiting for a counter instead of attempting such a feat.


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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hasan said:


> It's about the same time. . . evident from the panel, Kakashi's original intention was take out its head, but you see a deviation, and Kamui's barrier space manifesting on its right.
> 
> 
> Hardly indicative of anything.


Not even close to the same time and the panel does not support that. Kamui happened before summoning happened. We don't even know exactly when the summoning happened because it's was between panels.

I said jokes aside there. But that does prove that Sakura can mentally react to offensive Kamui before it starts to warp her in, and her reactions aren't on Minato and Tobirama's level.

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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Not even close to the same time and the panel does not support that. Kamui happened before summoning happened. We don't even know exactly when the summoning happened because it's was between panels.


. . .

Look at this thing's head—it's enormous. It's impossible that Kakashi, even with a bad eyesight, could have aimed improperly if this thing stood still. When he aims Kamui, it's already off-the-mark, meaning Madara made the move, and it was about to be transported [In the next-panel, it's transported]. Hence, Madara's remark ["They have someone with good-eye over there..."]. As in, impression given to the reader is that Kakashi was amazingly fast with it. Minato even inquires whether Kamui succeeded, so I don't believe the impression to which you allude is presented here. The fact that it was Mazou's arm that got torn in the end than the head, shows it was an all around fast occuring event.

​


> I said jokes aside there. But that does prove that Sakura can mentally react to offensive Kamui before it starts to warp her in, and her reactions aren't on Minato and Tobirama's level.


I know. . . I wasn't being aggressive; sorry if I gave such an impression there—

It could have been a mere sensation she felt that something happened, than _"I observe, the barrier area forming around me. . ." _Notice her reaction when she gets transported to the Timespace, gives the impression it was sudden.


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## Santoryu (Jul 14, 2017)

The speed-kings probably take it. 

But to suggest they'd have an easy time is beyond erroneous. The two Sharingan used in tandem has canonical benefits. It's also safe to assume adult Obito is superior to his teenage self. And Kakashi's analytical skills are the best here, and that's saying something considering his opponents. 

The Hokage duo have the means to avoid Kamui though. Their superior base movements and access to a boss summon are a good match for the Sharingan duo's versatility. Suitons counter Obito's katons. Their adroit movements and access to teleportation make bunshin feints difficult to pull off. Ultimately I think Minato is better than everyone here.


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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hasan said:


> . . .
> 
> Look at this thing's head—it's enormous. It's impossible that Kakashi, even with a bad eyesight, could have aimed improperly if this thing stood still. When he aims Kamui, it's already off-the-mark, meaning Madara made the move, and it was about to be transported [In the next-panel, it's transported]. Hence, Madara's remark ["They have someone with good-eye over there..."]. As in, impression given to the reader is that Kakashi was amazingly fast with it. Minato even inquires whether Kamui succeeded, so I don't believe the impression to which you allude is presented here. The fact that it was Mazou's arm that got torn in the end than the head, shows it was an all around fast occuring event.
> 
> ...



Honestly, nothing you said in that first paragraph is proof or even inference of exactly when the last transportation aspect of the summoning was activated in correlation to Kamui. All we know for sure is that Kamui had a headstart but we don't _exactly how much time elapsed _between Kamui's activation and the summonings. I wouldn't (I personally never will) look to deeply into Madara's statement because it's literally hype. Kamui is a technique worthy of hype in any circumstance; warping the Gedo in any situation is worthy of praise. I don't see any reason to believe there was even an ounce of implication geared towards Kamui's speed rather it's ability in general.

That's because Kamui is fast in general, but it isn't instantaneous; when you react after the technique itself has been activated is of importance.

It's all good.

Sakura still had a mental reaction though. That means any technique that is contingent upon mental reaction( especially if the user is > to Sakura's reactions) has the possibility of being a viable option.

@Crimson Flam3s 

I was never under the impression that Minato and Tobirama couldn't ever be feinted; just that their feints are more effective seeing how they have much more chakra meaning more clones, FTG can be linked from user to user, each clone can be tagged and also can use FTG itself and they can use the mutually revolving to switch places with each other or a clone at instant speed.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 14, 2017)

Man, this thread turned out well!
Lots of great post, and manga based arguments rather than just conjecture, this is why I love this place!

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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 14, 2017)

Also I consider the teams pretty even.
I just think the thunder gods take this because being able to instantly switch out with clones and your partner and the possibility of Edo Tensei explosions happening to be what you get switched with it or some thing like that to great.

Kamui is one of the best and most useful jutsu in the manga.
It's top tier haxx.

But the skills of the Hokage seem to outweigh the MS Shinobi, who are also extremely skilled.


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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Explain. Kakashi's intelligence and bunshin feinting abilities have not increased since Part 1. He feinted Itachi like 40 chapters after that and you are using that as reference lol.



Bringing up Zabuza is a weak argument because you're referring to a far weaker version of Kakashi. The manga made it a point to let us know Kakashi was young and still learning, which we seen as the manga went on. He didn't just fool Itachi in their first fight, but in their secont as well (30% clone). Fooling Deva who possesses the Rinn is also a major feat in itself. 

Long story short, the Zabuza statement holds no weight.


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## Hasan (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Honestly, nothing you said in that first paragraph is proof or even inference of exactly when the last transportation aspect of the summoning was activated in correlation to Kamui. All we know for sure is that Kamui had a headstart but we don't _exactly how much time elapsed _between Kamui's activation and the summonings.


You don't see anything odd with Kakashi attempting to warp _a giant's head_, and still improperly aiming it, catching the hand instead? Last when he did it, the barrier space enveloped the Mazou's head completely. Minato's reaction, at the very least, heavily imply that the occurence was very fast—Kamui having a headstart by a negligible margin. If ample time was 'provided' to Kakashi, don't you find that it would have been Mazou's head instead, rolling in the Timespace? It failed, because it had a negligible headstart... and it still captured _something_. That is, if there was considerable 'ninja-time', Mazou would have reached Madara in one piece.



> I wouldn't (I personally never will) look to deeply into Madara's statement because it's literally hype. Kamui is a technique worthy of hype in any circumstance; warping the Gedo in any situation is worthy of praise.
> 
> I don't see any reason to believe there was even an ounce of implication geared towards Kamui's speed rather it's ability in general.


It captured a _teleporting _target. Makes sense, in that context (i.e. Madara's perspective, his focus being Kakashi's proficiency). _"Yeah, he failed... but look what he did—!" _is the impression, I get from this scene.



> That's because Kamui is fast in general, but it isn't instantaneous; when you react after the technique itself has been activated is of importance.


This doesn't really solve the issue, though. Even if, for the sake discussion, assume that it isn't a fast occuring instance, the Mazous' arm was still enveloped by the barrier space. That is, when it jumped, the part captured by the barrier still got torn _even though Kamui hadn't completed. _In other words, Minato and Tobirama being caught in the barrier will not get them out, even if they somehow manage to activate Hiraishin.



> It's all good.
> 
> Sakura still had a mental reaction though. That means any technique that is contingent upon mental reaction( especially if the user is > to Sakura's reactions) has the possibility of being a viable option.


But is it a mental reaction, you would expect from, say Minato or Raikage? She has the same reaction to Sasuke's Amenotejikara.


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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hasan said:


> You don't see anything odd with Kakashi attempting to warp _a giant's head_, and still improperly aiming it, catching the hand instead? Last when he did it, the barrier space enveloped the Mazou's head completely. Minato's reaction, at the very least, heavily imply that the occurence was very fast—Kamui having a headstart by a negligible margin. If ample time was 'provided' to Kakashi, don't you find that it would have been Mazou's head instead, rolling in the Timespace? It failed, because it had a negligible headstart... and it still captured _something_. That is, if there was considerable 'ninja-time', Mazou would have reached Madara in one piece.
> 
> 
> It captured a _teleporting _target. Makes sense, in that context (i.e. Madara's perspective). They fought with Mazou earlier; Guy's kick caused it to trip over, and Kakashi dragging down its arm (what monstrous strength!).
> ...



That's odd but that's doesn't have anything to do with the speed of the technique; and like I said, we can't place a direct time frame for when the summoning was used in correlation to Kamui. 

The occurrence was fast, I never stated otherwise. And the margin was not negligible if the occurrence itself was extremely fast. Every fraction of a second matters against characters and techniques of this general level. If something is moving at lightspeed, even a fraction of a second is a big deal in terms of distance.

No I don't think the Mazo's head would have been missing unless Kamui was completely finished. Kakashi's Kamui was probably at the cusp of warping his target but got interrupted by the summoning.

That's still your own speculation as to why Madara praised Kakashi, but it's far from fact. The teleporting target you mentioned wasn't a part of a conventional summoning nonetheless, so Kakashi having time to begin his warp wasn't impressive rather it's ability to warp the Gedo Mazo in general. 

Why are we assuming that isn't a fast occuring instance? It was, and I never stated otherwise. And I've actually had a rather extensive debate about this with Crimson and he thinks the same way you do about the topic. I disagree completely. You're both under the impression that anything caught in the barrier is pretty much at the will of Kakashi at that point but I don't think that's ever really implied at all. I'd rather compare Kakashi's Kamui to Obito's Kamui and assume an FTG user can avoid the warp through teleportation if they act quickly enough; any later and they lose body parts or get warped completely. Like in the case with the Mazo. It teleported away too late, and lost parts that were already starting to warp into the Kamui dimension.

Like I said, I think anyone with reactions greater than Sakura with mental techniques can avoid being dragged into Kamui. Whether that's Minato or MS Sasuke, they have a means to counter. 

Sakura was reacting to hitting the ground after Ameno, not Ameno itself. It's akin to her reaction after being warped to the Kamui dimension.



Hamaru said:


> Bringing up Zabuza is a weak argument because you're referring to a far weaker version of Kakashi. The manga made it a point to let us know Kakashi was young and still learning, which we seen as the manga went on. He didn't just Itachi in their first fight, but in their secont as well (30% clone). Fooling Deva who possesses the Rinn is also a major feat in itself.
> 
> Long story short, the Zabuza statement holds no weight.



Kakashi being far weaker in Part 1 doesn't even matter. The man's intelligence and ability to feint his opponent has been top tier since chapter 1, and there's no indication that he got better at it. His stamina, base stats, and Kamui precision developed but not necessarily his feinting skills. That's still only part of my point. My bigger point it that no matter how great Kakashi is at feinting, doesn't mean he can't be feinted himself. He got feinted by Zabuza in Part 1, and although Part 2 Kakashi is a different story, Tobirama and Minato make Zabuza look like a fodder. Not only are they quicker, more intelligent, more skilled,  and have more chakra, but they also have all their bunshin linked through FTG. Feinting Kakashi and Obito will not be a problem.


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## Hamaru (Jul 14, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kakashi being far weaker in Part 1 doesn't even matter. The man's intelligence and ability to feint his opponent has been top tier since chapter 1, and there's no indication that he got better at it. His stamina, base stats, and Kamui precision developed but not necessarily his feinting skills. That's still only part of my point. My bigger point it that no matter how great Kakashi is at feinting, doesn't mean he can't be feinted himself. He got feinted by Zabuza in Part 1, and although Part 2 Kakashi is a different story, Tobirama and Minato make Zabuza look like a fodder. Not only are they quicker, more intelligent, more skilled,  and have more chakra, but they also have all their bunshin linked through FTG. Feinting Kakashi and Obito will not be a problem.



The problem with your entire argument is that you're using Zabuza as a reference point and comparison against Minato and Tobirama when Kakashi's feats against Tobi, Pein, and Itachi are all much more relevant and recent. What does it matter if Zabuza is fodder to Tobirama or Minato? Itachi and war arc Tobi wouldn't be fodder, so tell me what you're trying to get at with a valid point, not low-end, early manga nonsense.


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## Veracity (Jul 14, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> The problem with your entire argument is that you're using Zabuza as a reference point and comparison against Minato and Tobirama when Kakashi's feats against Tobi, Pein, and Itachi are all much more relevant and recent. What does it matter if Zabuza is fodder to Tobirama or Minato? Itachi and war arc Tobi wouldn't be fodder, so tell me what you're trying to get at with a valid point, not low-end, early manga nonsense.



lol you still don't even get the point after I've said it about a billion times. I never stated that Kakashi could not feint Minato or Tobirama. Seriously, mind pointing that out somewhere in any of my posts? You can't.

I just stated that he's much more likely to get feinted himself and I proved that his progression throughout the manga doesn't invalidate that he was feinted by an Elite Jounin and now he's facing Two High Kage shinobi who possses FTG. He's going to get feinted and him being feinted himself is much more dominant throughout the fight then Kakashi feinting either Minato or Tobirama.

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## Hamaru (Jul 15, 2017)

Veracity said:


> lol you still don't even get the point after I've said it about a billion times. I never stated that Kakashi could not feint Minato or Tobirama. Seriously, mind pointing that out somewhere in any of my posts? You can't.
> 
> I just stated that he's much more likely to get feinted himself and I proved that his progression throughout the manga doesn't invalidate that he was feinted by an Elite Jounin and now he's facing Two High Kage shinobi who possses FTG. He's going to get feinted and him being feinted himself is much more dominant throughout the fight then Kakashi feinting either Minato or Tobirama.



You're obviously missing my point. I'm not talking about Kakashi feinting them, I'm saying that relying on Kakashi getting feinted by Zabuza is stupid due to Kakashi's growth as a shinobi throughout the manga, and his ability to hold his own against other top tier ninja. Also, if I recall correctly, Zabuza used mist to help counteract Kakashi's sharingan anyway. 

Besides all of that, do you even have any feats from Minato and Tobirama where they feinted someone on Kakashi's level?


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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> You're obviously missing my point. I'm not talking about Kakashi feinting them, I'm saying that relying on Kakashi getting feinted by Zabuza is stupid due to Kakashi's growth as a shinobi throughout the manga, and his ability to hold his own against other top tier ninja. Also, if I recall correctly, Zabuza used mist to help counteract Kakashi's sharingan anyway.
> 
> Besides all of that, do you even have any feats from Minato and Tobirama where they feinted someone on Kakashi's level?



And I answered that, by bringing up the difference between Zabuza and the FTG users; which you ignored in the passsgae above. You literally said" Why does it matter if Zabuza is fodder to Tobirama or Minato?" And then circled back to that point again in this passage. Kakashi's growth wasn't ever centered towards his ability to not get feinted. His intelligence and perception on the battlefield never increased rather his stats and Kamui usage. But once again, even if you grant Kakashi an increase in the ability to not get feinted since Part 1, the difference between Zabuza and Tobirama/Minato's feinting skills is much larger.

Using the mist to catch Kakashi off guard takes a heavy back set to more chakra for more clones, tiers of difference in aptitude/intelligence, the mutually revolving technique, and FTG in general. His chances of being feinted here are much greater.

Minato and Tobirama don't have much feats. That's like asking me for feats of the Sages suiton ability to assume it's greater than Mei's. Minato was retconned to have bunshin in the war arc and Tobirama didn't have any feats until he was revived. Then once they were revived, all they fought were god tiers. Kinda hard to feint a god tier but Tobirama still managed to do so while also fooling Minato, KCM Naruto and Sasuke in the process. Safe to say that Kakashi isn't off the books here. Even ignoring that, Minato and Tobirama have the straight up intelligence and skill set to be the two greatest feinters on the planet; they simply lack the feats. They both have:
• massive chakra levels
• top tier speed
• FTG
• sensing
• top tier intelligence and potential
• great reactions
• the mutually revolving technique, allowing the user and the clone to switch places at instant speed.
• they have low chakra taxing arsenals, meaning their clones can use all of their abitlies.


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## Hamaru (Jul 15, 2017)

Veracity said:


> And I answered that, by bringing up the difference between Zabuza and the FTG users; which you ignored in the passsgae above. You literally said" Why does it matter if Zabuza is fodder to Tobirama or Minato?" And then circled back to that point again in this passage. Kakashi's growth wasn't ever centered towards his ability to not get feinted. His intelligence and perception on the battlefield never increased rather his stats and Kamui usage. But once again, even if you grant Kakashi an increase in the ability to not get feinted since Part 1, the difference between Zabuza and Tobirama/Minato's feinting skills is much larger.
> 
> Using the mist to catch Kakashi off guard takes a heavy back set to more chakra for more clones, tiers of difference in aptitude/intelligence, the mutually revolving technique, and FTG in general. His chances of being feinted here are much greater.
> 
> ...



So basically you have nothing. 

How is a technique used specifically to negate the sharingan's abilities inferior to "more chakra for more clones"? If Kakashi could see through the clones, it won't matter if they could make more or not. Also, you can't give credit to people for feats that they don't have. If Minato was never shown to feint someone one Kakashi's level, then he doesn't get credited with the ability to do so. Hell, it isn't even part of his fighting tactics to begin with. As for Tobirama fooling Minato, Sasuke, and Naruto, at best, it shows he can feint on Kakashi's level, not better. 

As for your list of things that are supposed to give them the advantage, lets not forget:
- Lower destructive power
- Top tier speed ONLY when using their S/T teleportation
- Their sensing gets leveled out with sharingan precog
- Their intelligence is no greater than Kakashi's
- Their reaction is no greater than Kakashi's
- They have not shown any great genjutsu resistance feats, which Kakashi and Obito can both use offensively 
- The clone feats only belong to Tobirama


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## Serene Grace (Jul 15, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> Their reaction is no greater than Kakashi's


Tobirama reacted to Juubito's shunshin and tagged him multiple times, while Minato reacted to a blitz from V2 Ay, Kamui mid warp whilst having no knowledge and 8 gated guy (though this one is iffy)

How are their reactions not greater than Kakashi's?

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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2017)

Hamaru said:


> So basically you have nothing.
> 
> How is a technique used specifically to negate the sharingan's abilities inferior to "more chakra for more clones"? If Kakashi could see through the clones, it won't matter if they could make more or not. Also, you can't give credit to people for feats that they don't have. If Minato was never shown to feint someone one Kakashi's level, then he doesn't get credited with the ability to do so. Hell, it isn't even part of his fighting tactics to begin with. As for Tobirama fooling Minato, Sasuke, and Naruto, at best, it shows he can feint on Kakashi's level, not better.
> 
> ...



You read all of that and got nothing out of it lol? That's a joke.

You must have _selective reading_ if all you got from that list was more clones. You just ignored the mutually revolving technique, the difference in intelligence, and FTG? All of that just doesn't matter now? And more clones means more opportunities to feint his opponent, especially when using high level bunshin techniques as opposed to low level ones like suiton bunshin.

The Sharingan can't see through bunshin and that method can be void by swapping a clone out with the original mid battle through mutually revolving technique.

What am I giving Minato credit for? And you're literally asking for something that isn't in the manga. Minato doesn't have dozens of fights to accumulate bunshin fronts like Kakashi does, and even then there are fights in which Kakashi didn't feint his opponent. Minato has two battles to accumulate bunshin feints; against JJ Obito and JJ Madara. It's safe to say it isn't  easy to feint those individuals. If you are going to ignore ones right to infer a logic conclusion, like Minato being great at feints for all the numerous reasons I point out, then I can use your same logic. Show me feats of Kakashi feinting an FTG user. If you don't have feats, you don't have proof. That's your logic lmao.

No not at all. EMS Sasuke> Kakashi. KCM2 Naruto> Kakashi. KCM Minato> Kakashi. And Tobirama fooled JJ Obito the only time he ever used a bunshin in canon, so his track record looks like it's safe to say he'd troll Kakashi.

1) How do their clones have lower destructive capability? They can use all the techniques the original can. That's also a disadvantage for everybody that uses bunshin.

2) Tobirama was physically able to tag JJ Obito out of an FTG warp so his speed is only marginally slower than his original. Which is still faster than Kakashi or Obito sooo? Minato's clones would also just be marginally slower than the original and his speed hype puts Obito and Kakashi to shame.

3) it's still an advantage and a reason as to why their feints would be legendary.

4) Which means what? You don't have to be as smart as Kakashi to feint him as seen through Zabuza. 

5) Minato and Tobirama have greater reaction feats than Kakashi for sure. Minato's clones could react and track JJ Obito and Tobirama could tag him. 

6) Genjustu is useless to bunshin. It's also OOC for Kakashi and Obito to use genjustu in battle. 

7) Minato basically doesn't have clone feats. And Tobirama has one for the only time he's used a clone offensively. But that doesn't mean we ignore the mechanics of a bunshin and the users intelligence.


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## Hasan (Jul 15, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That's odd but that's doesn't have anything to do with the speed of the technique; and like I said, we can't place a direct time frame for when the summoning was used in correlation to Kamui.


That is why if there was much 'ninja-time', then it should have been Mazou's head. Refer to this:
​
Notice anything? Kakashi is throwing Obito off by initially attempting to warp the Rasengan [you see Obito making this observation], yet when the stake's about to hit the clone, Kakashi stretches the barrier area to encapsulate the whole clone. Yet, here he uses Kamui almost reflexively like when he warped Minato's Rasengan or the Susanou arrows. Meaning, Mazou must have been transported, as soon as Kakashi used Kamui. Otherwise, he would have proceed as depicted above.



> The occurrence was fast, I never stated otherwise. And the margin was not negligible if the occurrence itself was extremely fast. Every fraction of a second matters against characters and techniques of this general level. If something is moving at lightspeed, even a fraction of a second is a big deal in terms of distance.
> 
> No I don't think the Mazo's head would have been missing unless Kamui was completely finished. Kakashi's Kamui was probably at the cusp of warping his target but got interrupted by the summoning.


It still caught the Mazou's arm. Even if you argue, Kamui is very slow, the interruption should have caused the Mazou to reach Madara in one piece with its arm intact. That means, the part encapsulated by the barrier space could not get out.



> That's still your own speculation as to why Madara praised Kakashi, but it's far from fact. The teleporting target you mentioned wasn't a part of a conventional summoning nonetheless, so Kakashi having time to begin his warp wasn't impressive rather it's ability to warp the Gedo Mazo in general.


"Looks like they have someone with a good eye over there. . ."

That's Madara directly referencing Kakashi's doujutsu proficiency, in response to him tearing the Mazou's arm—with Kamui.

It's still the same Kuchiyose no Jutsu; no distinction has ever been made in the transportation mechanism, thereby leading to a variety. He tried to do the same with the Kyuubi earlier, but Minato's seal was in the way.



> Why are we assuming that isn't a fast occuring instance? It was, and I never stated otherwise. And I've actually had a rather extensive debate about this with Crimson and he thinks the same way you do about the topic. I disagree completely. You're both under the impression that anything caught in the barrier is pretty much at the will of Kakashi at that point but I don't think that's ever really implied at all.


But you just said above that summoning interrupted Kamui. Despite that, Mazou's arm was caught. So yeah, it does seem like once's the barrier encapsulates, you're done for.



> I'd rather compare Kakashi's Kamui to Obito's Kamui and assume an FTG user can avoid the warp through teleportation if they act quickly enough; any later and they lose body parts or get warped completely. Like in the case with the Mazo. It teleported away too late, and lost parts that were already starting to warp into the Kamui dimension.


Um, EXACTLY! You have to avoid Kamui altogether. It's easier to do so with Obito's right eye Kamui; it's impossible with Kakashi's left-eye Kamui. Obito makes a clear, observable and physical gesture by motioning his arm in order to capture  the target; THIS is what Minato avoided, otherwise both he and Obito conceded that Kamui-warp can't be avoided. Kakashi's Kamui has no such constraints. . . The only visual indicator is "you just got warped" – makes it nigh-impossible to anticipate, which in turn makes Kakashi more dangerous.



> Like I said, I think anyone with reactions greater than Sakura with mental techniques can avoid being dragged into Kamui. Whether that's Minato or MS Sasuke, they have a means to counter.
> 
> Sakura was reacting to hitting the ground after Ameno, not Ameno itself. It's akin to her reaction after being warped to the Kamui dimension.


That's her unconscious reaction to "some occurence" without affirming its truth i.e. she didn't know, Sasuke used Amenotejikara, and neither Obito. Likewise, how you know that's different here, and that she's actually thinking along the lines, "A barrier  has encapsulated me"? We weren't shown the full process—could have zapped her to the Timespace without her realizing what really occured. Her reaction to landing in Kamui's Timespace indicates as much.

. . . While I don't deny that there are instances where Kamui was observable, but there are also instances where it's outright instantaneous. From that Chapter #598 bit I cited above, it does seem like Kakashi can actually maintain the speed of the warp.

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## Veracity (Jul 15, 2017)

Hasan said:


> That is why if there was much 'ninja-time', then it should have been Mazou's head. Refer to this:
> ​
> Notice anything? Kakashi is throwing Obito off by initially attempting to warp the Rasengan [you see Obito making this observation], yet when the stake's about to hit the clone, Kakashi stretches the barrier area to encapsulate the whole clone. Yet, here he uses Kamui almost reflexively like when he warped Minato's Rasengan or the Susanou arrows. Meaning, Mazou must have been transported, as soon as Kakashi used Kamui. Otherwise, he would have proceed as depicted above.
> 
> ...



That example doesn't hold much water because the Mazo was not transported as soon as Kamui was used as the panels don't indicate such. If it was to imply that the techniques were used in conjunction then Kishi could have simply used side by side frames but he did not. Instead Kamui was used in one panel, the panel after Kamui was taking effect, and then the panel after that it was warped away. There is a couple things different with this situation than others and that's why I disagree with your example. You've used an example that is compltely different. This is the only example in which Kakashi observed his own Kamui interact with its opponent and then vanish mid way through, meaning that if the teleportation was used before his Kamui started to pull pieces of Gedo into the Kamui dimension, it would have been successful.

Kamui isn't slow but Kakashi's Kamui still works the same way Obito's does. Just because it catches you in the Barrier doesn't mean you're entire body is instantly tranported to Kamui. Certain pieces have to travel there first( like the Mazo's arm) before the whole body does. I managed to suck up the Mazo's arm and got transported before the rest did. But taut doesn't mean there wasn't a time gap between when the Barrier starts and when it starts warping pieces of the body in. 

We're just gonna have to disagree here. That's Madara referencing Kakashi's ability to use Kamui in general. Not it's timing or reactions, but the fact that he could take pieces of matter away at all. Speed wasn't referenced at all because Kamui is praise worthy even without its high level speed.

I know we both have eyeballs and we both know exactly how the summoning justu works. It's instant. Not just fast but instant. If that was a conventional summoning then Kakashi and Minato would not have been able to have a conversation after Mazo was pulled from Obito. You mine as well just say that Kakashi can warp Minato as he uses FTG if that's your argument.

Mazo's arm was caught because pieces of the being have to travel into the Barrier before the whole body does. If the summoning was faster, Mazo would have been in one piece.

I disagree. There is a time frame between being put in the Barrier and being warped away( or pieces of you; just like Obito) and that's your wiggle room. Anyone with instant defense can either block AoE or teleport away in that time frame. Minato was on his way to being warped into Kamui land, like the man's body was in a spiral, before using FTG to avoid it. Kakashi's is no different; except the Barrier takes places of the physical contact- like in Obito's case. I've seen your arguments as to why you don't think Minato teleported during Kamui and i disagree. It requires ignoring what was shown on panel and reinforcing interpretive semantics. Obito saying he would warp Minato faster just means he wouldn't catch Minato's attack and talk to him, rather start warping the moment his body made contact. If Obito can't control his self body warp speed, then why can he control the speed at which he teleports objects?

Because that isn't how the manga works. You are thinking to deeply into subjects for almost no reason. If Sakura was only feeling the sensation then Kishi would not have bothered with giving her a reaction anyway. A question or exclamation mark are simply mental reactions. And that's how it's been since chapter 1 of the manga. Sakura could mentally react to the Kamui barrier around her and there is no other way Kishi could have illustrated that panel so that you could personally tell that Sakura had a mental reaction other than showing her physically move. And then they would have been something entirely different lol.


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## Monty Burns (Jul 15, 2017)

I agree with Veracity here. The chances of Kakashi feinting an FTG user and launching a counter attack is 0. The chances of it happening the other way round is 100. That's how Minato fights. He uses FTG feints to get into an enemy's blind spot. Add on Clones or Tobirama (not that he'll need them here), Kakashi will die in a matter of seconds along with Obito.

P.S Kakashi's not even remotely close to Minato when it comes to reactions and reflexes.

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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

Veracity said:


> That example doesn't hold much water because the Mazo was not transported as soon as Kamui was used as the panels don't indicate such. If it was to imply that the techniques were used in conjunction then Kishi could have simply used side by side frames but he did not. Instead Kamui was used in one panel, the panel after Kamui was taking effect, and then the panel after that it was warped away. There is a couple things different with this situation than others and that's why I disagree with your example. You've used an example that is compltely different. This is the only example in which Kakashi observed his own Kamui interact with its opponent and then vanish mid way through, meaning that if the teleportation was used before his Kamui started to pull pieces of Gedo into the Kamui dimension, it would have been successful.


I only said that Kamui had a negligible head start, and if Mazou stayed longer when Kakashi used Kamui, he would have stretched and shifted the barrier area to take out its head, because taking out an arm means nothing. I see that you have a misconception concerning Kakashi’s Kamui, which I’ll address below.

The basic takeaway is Kakashi’s reflexes are top-notch too, and as long as he can see his opponents, they are goners. To avoid Kamui, they have out of Kakashi’s sight constantly. Even Minato isn’t sure what transpired, and you people are postulating that Kamui was observably slow in this instance.

. . . I am not sure what you’re trying to say with that example being misused. It’s only showing that Kakashi stretched the barrier space in the last moment when the stake was about to hit the clone, and could have done the same with Mazou, but didn’t. The reason is that you said that we don’t know when the Mazou was transported after Kamui was used.



> We're just gonna have to disagree here. That's Madara referencing Kakashi's ability to use Kamui in general. Not it's timing or reactions, but the fact that he could take pieces of matter away at all. Speed wasn't referenced at all because Kamui is praise worthy even without its high level speed.


Well, okay. . . Seems obvious to me what prompted the praise.



> Kamui isn't slow but Kakashi's Kamui still works the same way Obito's does. Just because it catches you in the Barrier doesn't mean you're entire body is instantly tranported to Kamui. Certain pieces have to travel there first( like the Mazo's arm) before the whole body does. I managed to suck up the Mazo's arm and got transported before the rest did. But taut doesn't mean there wasn't a time gap between when the Barrier starts and when it starts warping pieces of the body in.
> 
> I know we both have eyeballs and we both know exactly how the summoning justu works. It's instant. Not just fast but instant. If that was a conventional summoning then Kakashi and Minato would not have been able to have a conversation after Mazo was pulled from Obito. You mine as well just say that Kakashi can warp Minato as he uses FTG if that's your argument.
> 
> ...


Kakashi’s Kamui warps what is in the confines of the barrier space. If he should aim for the head, then only the head will be warped. This is why his Kamui has the auxiliary function to specify the size of the barrier space—required size is proportional to that of the target, if you want to pull it in fully. With his imperfect use, he only managed to capture Deidara’s arm. . . and when he pulled in the Hachibi, he missed one tail. Obito’s “touch-warp” Kamui works differently.



> There is a time frame between being put in the Barrier and being warped away( or pieces of you; just like Obito) and that's your wiggle room. Anyone with instant defense can either block AoE or teleport away in that time frame. Minato was on his way to being warped into Kamui land, like the man's body was in a spiral, before using FTG to avoid it. Kakashi's is no different; except the Barrier takes places of the physical contact- like in Obito's case.


The warp is initiated the moment, barrier space encapsulates the target [1, 2, 3 (this one being extremely slowed down sequence)].



> I've seen your arguments as to why you don't think Minato teleported during Kamui and i disagree. It requires ignoring what was shown on panel and reinforcing interpretive semantics. *Obito saying he would warp Minato faster just means he wouldn't catch Minato's attack and talk to him, rather start warping the moment his body made contact.* If Obito can't control his self body warp speed, then why can he control the speed at which he teleports objects?


But this is what I said. . . 



> Because that isn't how the manga works. You are thinking to deeply into subjects for almost no reason. If Sakura was only feeling the sensation then Kishi would not have bothered with giving her a reaction anyway. A question or exclamation mark are simply mental reactions. And that's how it's been since chapter 1 of the manga. Sakura could mentally react to the Kamui barrier around her and there is no other way Kishi could have illustrated that panel so that you could personally tell that Sakura had a mental reaction other than showing her physically move. And then they would have been something entirely different lol.


​. . . Doesn’t look like she has an idea, what’s happening. I have no idea how else to explain this, except there’s a prominent question mark next to the exclamation mark. Maybe Kaguya’s Amenominaka better illustrates this than Amenotejikara?


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> There is no point in that, if Minato managed mid-warp


He did jump mid warp...You can see him in the damn worm hole and he then escapes it

Whether it was a panic response or not on his part is 100% irrelevant...Point is he escaped kamuis warping action completely unharmed


Hasan said:


> His 'escape' is due to a delay


Yeah a delay in the sense kamuis BFR isnt instantaneous...The worm hole takes time to send one to boxland

Its not like sasukes amenotejikara which instantly swaps space

It takes time

So minato gets a window and can escape mid warp



Hasan said:


> On Minato's part, was a blind jump, which is why you see him disoriented after the jump.


You see him disoriented after the jump due to escaping a worm hole

You can clearly see him being distorted by kamui before he jumps




Hasan said:


> No. That should tell you, you are not reading that page correctly. Otherwise, you are saying Kishimoto made an error on the very same page, which is impossible.


Its impossible for there to be an error in a work of fiction?

What happened during that encounter was the following...


Minato halted the Kyuubis TBB
Obito phased into existence behind minato and Minato reacted and did a blind sweep with his kunai 
Obito reacted and phased through it and caught his arm, Obito then attempted to warp minato while having a hold on him, Minato was clearly distorted by kamui, Minato escaped the worm hole completely undamaged
Thats it

The end

Wheres the error?



Hasan said:


> What are you talking about? There's a smoke right there, along with the scan in @Crimson Flam3s post. You also see it multiple times, during the Obito fight [1, 2]


Theres a difference between a bit of dust being kicked up by extremely fast movement and what happens when you summon something and i think we both know that

Otherwise i guess shunshin=summoning as well


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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He did jump mid warp...You can see him in the damn worm hole and he then escapes it
> 
> Whether it was a panic response or not on his part is 100% irrelevant...Point is he escaped kamuis warping action completely unharmed





> Its not like sasukes amenotejikara which instantly swaps space
> 
> It takes time
> 
> ...


That's because Kamui itself is very fast, which is why you see it taking effect to some extent.



> Yeah a delay in the sense kamuis BFR isnt instantaneous...The worm hole takes time to send one to boxland


Nope. Obito's pronoucement of victory, which is when Minato jumped.



> Its impossible for there to be an error in a work of fiction?


No, it's impossible to commit error on the _same page_, and write the remainder of that _brief _exchange on the premise that Hiraishin is useless, should Obito touch him again.



> What happened during that encounter was the following...
> 
> 
> Minato halted the Kyuubis TBB
> ...



_*Obito:* "He jumped again. . . He's fast. . . *Next time, I will warp him the second I lay my hand upon him*."
_
How does the mid-warp make sense to you, after Obito says it—and Minato himself?



> Theres a difference between a bit of dust being kicked up by extremely fast movement and what happens when you summon something and i think we both know that
> 
> Otherwise i guess shunshin=summoning as well


That's Minato jumping to the kunai, he gave to Kakashi.


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## Serene Grace (Jul 16, 2017)

Obito was talking in the sense that he'd warp Minato _earlier_ than he did, rather then faster contexts points to this since he said "as soon as we touch".

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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

Cherry said:


> Obito was talking in the sense that he'd warp Minato _earlier_ than he did, rather then faster contexts points to this since he said "as soon as we touch".


That's what I'm saying. If jumping _mid-warp_ works; it doesn't matter whether he talks or activates Kamui _'as soon as he touches'_.


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## Veracity (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> I only said that Kamui had a negligible head start, and if Mazou stayed longer when Kakashi used Kamui, he would have stretched and shifted the barrier area to take out its head, because taking out an arm means nothing. I see that you have a misconception concerning Kakashi’s Kamui, which I’ll address below.
> 
> The basic takeaway is Kakashi’s reflexes are top-notch too, and as long as he can see his opponents, they are goners. To avoid Kamui, they have out of Kakashi’s sight constantly. Even Minato isn’t sure what transpired, and you people are postulating that Kamui was observably slow in this instance.
> 
> ...



I'm just saying that negligible isn't really " negligible" when the technique itself is extremely high speed like Kamui. If Minato had warped away a fraction of a second later from Obito's physical Kamui, he would have been a goner. Each fraction of a second is important because Kamui( like anything really) is broken down in between phases. So the time gap between Kamui being used, it taking effect, and the summoning activated is important.

I disagree. That's overhype. Is Kakashi like god tier now? As long as he can see their opponents, they are victims to Kamui? I feel like that's a bit of an exaggeration and I feel like portrayal itself indicates that there are ways to escape Kamui outside of being so much faster than the user that they can't track your speed. That's because Minato doesn't even have much knowledge on Kakashi's offensive Kamui( did he ever see it before then?). He probably saw the Gedo get caught in the Barrier( the time someone of his tier escapes) and then as parts were getting dragged in, or vanished. He was probably just confused beyond belief.

Because Kakashi stretching the Barrier isn't really the problem. The problem is that the example used isn't like the one we are referencing. Kamui wasn't interrupted by anything (especially not teleportation) against Naruto and instead stretched the Barrier to confuse Obito. There was no confusion here, Kakashi's stretch was just outsped by the summoning technique, and had it been used right when the Barrier hit the Gedo, there would have been nothing that made it to the other side.

I know. But that doesn't really change anything I said. It still doesn't instantly warp what's inside the confined space and there is a time frame between being caught in Kamui's Barrier and being warped away. That's when defenses can be mounted; though I do admit the time frame is crazy short.

No it isn't. The problem here is that you're using examples in which the target was either too slow to escape or wanted to be warped. When Kakashi tried to warp Obito to Kamui land against Madara, he started Kamui warp but it was interrupted leaving Obito in one piece on the battlefield. Obito was already in the Barrier before Madara started to even make an attack and he attacked quicker than Kakashi could warp Obito and interrupted Kamui. You can simply substitute that with literal teleportation and the same outcome happens. Sorry that I can't post the panel buts it's during the combination attack between Kakashi, Minato( able to activate Sage Mode, throw a kunai, and use FTG to begin his attack before Kamui could take anything to the land), Gaara and Obito.

I thought you were implying that Obito could have Kamui'd Minato faster rather than activated it faster. Perhaps I'm mistaken.

Again, that example does not hold water. One is a reaction during the technique( which can't be done against certain techniques that are Instant) and one is a reaction after. If Sakura had reacted to being transported out of Kamui into the dimension( which she did) then I would completely ignore it as it's uselsss. But Sakura had a mental reaction to the Kamui barrier being placed around her; consider the fact that his was completely off guard. She didn't know she was going to be Kamui'd so maybe her approach would changed if she wasn't distracted when it happened.

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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> That's because Kamui itself is very fast


Very Fast=/= Instant

Which is why minato can escape mid warp


Hasan said:


> Nope. Obito's pronoucement of victory, which is when Minato jumped.


He jumped while being warped

You can clearly see him in the worm hole right here

I dont know what else to say about this




Hasan said:


> No, it's impossible to commit error on the _same page_, and write the remainder of that _brief _exchange on the premise that Hiraishin is useless, should Obito touch him again.


Then its moot

Cuz we know minato is faster than obito regardless

And we know obito cant get a hand on him after minato has experienced the technique

Thats how he beat it

Minato could also...Ya know...Escape mid warp...Like he did a second ago



Hasan said:


> *Obito:* "He jumped again. . . He's fast. . . *Next time, I will warp him the second I lay my hand upon him*."


Then im confused as to what you are challenging

Cuz obito already had a hand on him in that very encounter and still failed to warp him



Hasan said:


> That's Minato jumping to the kunai, he gave to Kakashi.


Baseless for starters

As every time in this manga hiraishin is used someone either comments on it or emphasis is placed on which marker was used to jump with the technique, even among different users and even post and pre timeskip in the manga that remains true

Yet it doesnt happen here

Minato himself later points out when he used the knife to jump to kakashi to save him and rin and he makes no mention of it in that circumstance

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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

@Veracity, I'll reply in a moment.


WorldsStrongest said:


> Very Fast=/= Instant
> 
> Which is why minato can escape mid warp
> 
> ...


It's Kishimoto _slowing down _the sequence, so you see both Hiraishin _and _Kamui in effect.



> Then its moot
> 
> Cuz we know minato is faster than obito regardless
> 
> ...


Minato disagrees.



> Then im confused as to what you are challenging
> 
> Cuz obito already had a hand on him in that very encounter and still failed to warp him


Obito's comment _immediately follows_ his failure. You read this comment _in light of what transpired earlier_, and you still assert that Minato _jumped mid-warp_? He's basically confirming that it wasn't a mid-warp escape, and Minato agrees with him.



> Baseless for starters
> 
> As every time in this manga hiraishin is used someone either comments on it or emphasis is placed on which marker was used to jump with the technique, even among different users and even post and pre timeskip in the manga that remains true
> 
> ...



1. Notice where he appears.
2. Databook uses this page for Hiraishin's entry.


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## Serene Grace (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> That's what I'm saying. If jumping _mid-warp_ works; it doesn't matter whether he talks or activates Kamui _'as soon as he touches'_.


I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying he jumped before Obito used Kamui?


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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

Veracity said:


> I'm just saying that negligible isn't really " negligible" when the technique itself is extremely high speed like Kamui. If Minato had warped away a fraction of a second later from Obito's physical Kamui, he would have been a goner. Each fraction of a second is important because Kamui( like anything really) is broken down in between phases. So the time gap between Kamui being used, it taking effect, and the summoning activated is important.





> Because Kakashi stretching the Barrier isn't really the problem. The problem is that the example used isn't like the one we are referencing. Kamui wasn't interrupted by anything (especially not teleportation) against Naruto and instead stretched the Barrier to confuse Obito. *There was no confusion here, Kakashi's stretch was just outsped by the summoning technique, and had it been used right when the Barrier hit the Gedo, there would have been nothing that made it to the other side.*


EXACTLY! There was no stretch because the Mazou was transported. That is, the time between Kamui activation and Mazou’s transportation is. . . VERY THIN. Otherwise, Kakashi would have adjusted, and his reflexes are by no means, dull.



> I disagree. That's overhype. Is Kakashi like god tier now? As long as he can see their opponents, they are victims to Kamui? I feel like that's a bit of an exaggeration and I feel like portrayal itself indicates that there are ways to escape Kamui outside of being so much faster than the user that they can't track your speed. That's because Minato doesn't even have much knowledge on Kakashi's offensive Kamui( did he ever see it before then?). He probably saw the Gedo get caught in the Barrier( the time someone of his tier escapes) and then as parts were getting dragged in, or vanished. He was probably just confused beyond belief.


Hardly, since Kamui was _chiefly_ responsible for bringing about the final villain's demise—a technique _too OP_ that Kishimoto took it away, leaving no trace.

. . . It makes Kakashi dangerous, yes. This is why Kamui is problematic.




> I know. But that doesn't really change anything I said. It still doesn't instantly warp what's inside the confined space and there is a time frame between being caught in Kamui's Barrier and being warped away. That's when defenses can be mounted; though I do admit the time frame is crazy short.


Um, it instantly does;  you're in denial now. The third of the three scans I linked demonstrates the warp in details; the first hint of Kamui—and kunai is already distorted.



> No it isn't. The problem here is that you're using examples in which the target was either too slow to escape or wanted to be warped. When Kakashi tried to warp Obito to Kamui land against Madara, he started Kamui warp but it was interrupted leaving Obito in one piece on the battlefield. Obito was already in the Barrier before Madara started to even make an attack and he attacked quicker than Kakashi could warp Obito and interrupted Kamui. You can simply substitute that with literal teleportation and the same outcome happens. Sorry that I can't post the panel buts it's during the combination attack between Kakashi, Minato( able to activate Sage Mode, throw a kunai, and use FTG to begin his attack before Kamui could take anything to the land), Gaara and Obito.




There's nothing wrong with the examples—

. . ._*It’s how left-eye Kamui works*_—you specify the size for barrier space, which then collapses onto the point of distortion [middle]. Anything inside the barrier, gets pulled in. Obito can’t create variable sized barrier spaces. Obito's absorbs _what he touches_; Kakashi's absorbs _what the barrier encapsulates. _I am aware of few _odd_ depictions, but that's how his Kamui works; It's different from Obito's.




> I thought you were implying that Obito could have Kamui'd Minato faster rather than activated it faster. Perhaps I'm mistaken.


Well, no. If he can't control the warp speed (he can't), and Minato jumped _mid-warp_, then their battle had _no meaning AT ALL, _but both fighters continue their battle 'pretending' Kamui-warp can't be dealt with.



> Again, that example does not hold water. One is a reaction during the technique( which can't be done against certain techniques that are Instant) and one is a reaction after. If Sakura had reacted to being transported out of Kamui into the dimension( which she did) then I would completely ignore it as it's uselsss. But Sakura had a mental reaction to the Kamui barrier being placed around her; consider the fact that his was completely off guard. She didn't know she was going to be Kamui'd so maybe her approach would changed if she wasn't distracted when it happened.


. . . but *what *reaction? 



Cherry said:


> I honestly don't know what you're talking about. Are you saying he jumped before Obito used Kamui?


It makes sense, yes. Minato agreed, if Obito touched him _next time_, he would lose the battle. That is, _mid-warp escape_ is incorrect reading then.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 16, 2017)

this

The caption for the Hirashin no jutsu clearly uses that picture to show when he marked the guy.
It used that picture in conjunction with the other on the page to show how he got behind the guy.

Minato is just fricking fast anyway.


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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> sashabankswwe
> 
> The caption for the Hirashin no jutsu clearly uses that picture to show when he marked the guy.
> It used that picture in conjunction with the other on the page to show how he got behind the guy.


You ignored the part where he appears in an awkward position, near Kakashi’s pouch bag to _"save him" _[as the caption puts it].



> Minato is just fricking fast anyway.


None denied it, really.


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## WorldsStrongest (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> It's Kishimoto _slowing down _the sequence


He has no need to

Bot techniques occur at the same time

We see kamui activate

Then we see minato activate FTG after hes sucked into a worm hole

Theres no indication or reason the scene is "slowed down"


Hasan said:


> Minato disagrees.


His feats dont



Hasan said:


> Obito's comment _immediately follows_ his failure. You read this comment _in light of what transpired earlier_, and you still assert that Minato _jumped mid-warp_?


I assert minato jumped mid warp because thats exactly what we are shown

Its blatantly drawn that way

Obito makes contact with minato VERY clearly in the top panel which is a prerequisite for kamui BFR, he activates kamui in the middle right panel and you can see minato being distorted a little, then we cut to the middle left panel and we see minato being VERY distorted, then the bottom panels detail minatos escape

He doesnt leave before obito activates kamui, we clearly see kamui active and affecting him before he escapes.

What obito says doesnt matter as two seconds prior to his statement we saw him grab minato and then warp him

And minato escaped unharmed



Hasan said:


> He's basically confirming that it wasn't a mid-warp escape


No he isnt...Nothing about his statement indicates that at all

He just says "so fast, next time ill be faster" he doesnt say "he activated FTG before i could activate kamui"

And if he did that statement woudl contradict what we were shown on an earlier panel of that very page


Hasan said:


> 1. Notice where he appears.
> 2. Databook uses this page for Hiraishin's entry.


None of this changes what i pointed out

And a dated artistic effect  used by kishimoto to signify speed that may or may not bare a similarity to summoning doesnt change the fact minato blatantly countered a mid warp kamui with hiraishin on panel

And also...The DB used that scene because thats when minato MARKED the guy

It blatantly says thats why it used that scene


Notice how it doesnt bring up the marked kunai in kakashis pocket id bet good money kishi forgot about in this instance.

Its detailing how the marker strategy works...Of course it would detail the scene in which minato places said marker.

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> You ignored the part where he appears in an awkward position, near Kakashi’s pouch bag to _"save him" _[as the caption puts it].
> 
> 
> None denied it, really.


No I didn't.
That scene shows Kakashi get saved by Minato's speed, and the guy there after grumbles about "that guys movements".
Then when he actually uses the actual tech it's to appear behind that dude.
Hence, why those two scenes are used, and why the caption is about the seal not the movement at first.


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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> He has no need to
> 
> Bot techniques occur at the same time
> 
> ...


This has nothing whatsoever to do with _how_ the battle proceeded. I know Minato won that fight, and I know you see Minato getting absorbed; Read that page once more, it's depicting the warp in excruciating detail.

_*Minato:* "Whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win. . ."_

That is, Obito touches him—he loses. And if it's _him _saying this, means that was not a _mid-warp_ _jump_.



> No he isnt...Nothing about his statement indicates that at all
> 
> He just says "so fast, next time ill be faster" he doesnt say "he activated FTG before i could activate kamui"


It's a direct inference. Obito is painfully aware why it failed—and it's not mid-warp.



> And if he did that statement woudl contradict what we were shown on an earlier panel of that very page
> 
> None of this changes what i pointed out


No. That simply means, you aren't reading correctly. I'm not always insistent upon Kishimoto's consistency, but that's simply an absurd postulation on your part, especially when it's made _painfully_ clear to reader.



> And a dated artistic effect  used/ by kishimoto to signify speed that may or may not bare a similarity to summoning doesnt change the fact minato blatantly countered a mid warp kamui with hiraishin on panel


*Kakashi:* _"He made no seals. . . used no summoning tattoos, and still got his body out of the area? If that's true, then his space-time ninjutsu is superior to even the Fourth's. . ."_

SFX have no bearing on what's outright stated _twice—_they fluctuate; doesn't alter the technique fundamentally. Neither does it change the fact both Obito and *Minato *clarified that Hiraishin will fail _if next time should come_, nor does it change the fact that it failed to save Mazou from Kamui.



WorldsStrongest said:


> And also...The DB used that scene because thats when minato MARKED the guy
> 
> It blatantly says thats why it used that scene
> 
> ...


The DB mentions _both_: _"_*He saves Kakashi and*_. . ." – _in the _most descriptive_, not to mention _main panel_ used for Hiraishin no Jutsu's entry—next to a _prominent heading that is basically describing Hiraishin_?




Hi no Ishi said:


> No I didn't.
> That scene shows Kakashi get saved by Minato's speed, and the guy there after grumbles about "that guys movements".
> Then when he actually uses the actual tech it's to appear behind that dude.
> Hence, why those two scenes are used, and why the caption is about the seal not the movement at first.


The caption is about both, and mentions Kakashi first. Two, it's used as the _main picture_—the most telling and prominently featured sketch for Hiraishin no Jutsu is actually a mere _Shunshin_? Especially when you have reason to believe, he used Hiraishin?


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> This has nothing whatsoever to do with _how_ the battle proceeded. I know Minato won that fight, and I know you see Minato getting absorbed; Read that page once more, it's depicting the warp in excruciating detail.
> 
> _*Minato:* "Whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win. . ."_
> 
> ...


1) I don't know how you read the caption and dont know why they would use that picture. 

2)Did he mark a dude some where else that there would be a better picture to use? No.
Does it clearly say in the text when it's engraved on an enemy's body it becomes a cursed seals with the sentence of death? Yep.
Is that what they show in the two pictures? Yep.


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## Hasan (Jul 16, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) I don't know how you read the caption and dont know why they would use that picture.


​Here's how _I_ read it:

The scan _used as main_ for the technique's entry is _accompanied_ by two descriptive headliners, which is translated as: _"Flight Across Space and Time Completed In a Flash-like Instant" _and another, which reads: _"Swiftness that surpasses [Shunshin]"._

_. . . _I'm baffled—really. How do you read this entry and come to the conclusion _that panel_ is *not* Hiraishin?



> 2)Did he mark a dude some where else that there would be a better picture to use? No.


Did he _save_ _Kakashi with Hiraishin _elsewhere, which he could use as reference? The caption mentions him, and you omit it. Secondly, captions are only textual aids—they describe what is already prominent in the picture [Notice the "Mark" SFX and him saving Kakashi?] This is consistent throughout the databooks [Notice the captions on this page].


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## Veracity (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> EXACTLY! There was no stretch because the Mazou was transported. That is, the time between Kamui activation and Mazou’s transportation is. . . VERY THIN. Otherwise, Kakashi would have adjusted, and his reflexes are by no means, dull.
> 
> 
> Hardly, since Kamui was _chiefly_ responsible for bringing about the final villain's demise—a technique _too OP_ that Kishimoto took it away, leaving no trace.
> ...



How does that refute what I said? I never disagreed with the time between the techniques being very thin? It is and that's part of my argument. Kakashi can't adjust something around instant speeds.

Kakashi had Riduko enhanced Kamui against Kaguya. It wasn't simply just Kamui so I don't see why that's being escalated so heavily. Naruto trolled the hell out of Kaguya with Kage bunshin and the fate of the world stood on the clash between resengan and chidori. Kamui is nice and all but isn't isn't a end any being thing once it hits its target. There are defenses.

Kamui doesn't instantly do anything. That isn't in the data book and that hasn't ever been referenced in the manga. It is quick but it isn't instant. I don't see why Kishi would need to show Kamui step by step every time and even if it was "instant", there is still a time frame between being caught in the Barrier and being warped away, as evidence in the example I gave you.

Can you explain the example I gave you that you seem to have ignored? Because that's important and proves that someone like Minato or Tobirama will have time to jump away with no injuries and the panel I provided with Sakura proves that there is a sensation as soon as Kamui land - before one gets warped. I also never disagree to the differences between Obito and Kakashi's eye; after all one is offense and the other is defense. I just disagree with the notion that Kamui warps away the portion caught in the Barrier at instant speeds. That's hasn't been stated or even implied. Visually maybe? But a lot of things look visually instant. The time frame is important to speedsters here.


Obito can't control the jump speed? I agree, good that we got that out of the way. Consider the fact that Madara stated that a direct hit from Gai in the 8th Gate would kill him and the entire battle was even focused around Madara not being hit; yet Madara was hit with four EE's, a direct hit from Gai, and then Night Gai and still survived. Seems like his word can't be taken at 100% face value at all times. same goes with Minato, it's more like being touched put him in a bad situation as opposed to outright losing.

The question mark is a reaction and appeared before Sakura was warped in, therefore it's a reaction.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 16, 2017)

Hasan said:


> ​Here's how _I_ read it:
> 
> The scan _used as main_ for the technique's entry is _accompanied_ by two descriptive headliners, which is translated as: _"Flight Across Space and Time Completed In a Flash-like Instant" _and another, which reads: _"Swiftness that surpasses [Shunshin]"._
> 
> ...


1) There is definitely Hirashin in that panel, it's just the part the caption describes. The seal.

2) Why are you ignoring that that guy saw Minato's movements and commented on them as I said earlier.
Or the databook and manga not mentioning the kunai in that scene.

3) yes the caption that notes the seal being the importance of that picture.
That caption.

The article says you get marked, you get dead. The pics show getting marked and getting dead.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 17, 2017)

Veracity said:


> The question mark is a reaction and appeared before Sakura was warped in, therefore it's a reaction.




What are you implying with her showing that question mark?

  She also has a reaction on this panel, I guess she has God Tier reactions now lmao.

No matter how much faster someone is than them, Naruto characters have always showed some sort of reaction. I don't see why posting that Sakura scan changes anything at all, it is outright ridiculous.

Also Hiraishin is instant once it's executed, but there is a small delay from the moment that Minato activates it, to the execution.
Look at the panel where Obito is sucking up Minato, and look at his fingers. It's the same motion he normally uses to activate  Hiraishin, however in the next panel he  is distorted significantly more before he is able to ST away. If Hiraishin was activated and executed instantly then he would have been gone in the next panel.

If Minato and Kakashi/Obito activated Hiraishin/Kamui at the exact same time, Hiraishin would obviously win. But since Minato can only activate Hiraishin as a *response/counter* after Kamui has been activated, meaning that Kamui it's already one step ahead, then Kamui can get him due to the delay between the activation and execution.

Minato himself said that if Obito touched him first, it would be over for him and Obito himself thought so as well, so it has to count for something. Which is why Minato outsmarted Obito instead of attempting to ST out speeding him again.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Veracity (Jul 17, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> What are you implying with her showing that question mark?
> 
> She also has a reaction on this panel, I guess she has God Tier reactions now lmao.
> 
> ...



In the panel you posted she clearly reacted. Nothing much too it but you aren't gonna actually try to fool me to believe that the exclamation mark and the lines focused on Sakura means she was completely unaware of what was going on. Obito being able to Kamui Sakura in that situation doesn't even make sense, so let's just ignore that? You're gonna have to provide a better example.

I looked at the panel. That's just because FTG was activated after Kamui and Minato was beginning to spiral into Kamui land. What else am I suppose to take from that seem? 

If Minato escaped Obito's Kamui why can't he escape Kakashi's? They are the same speed as per canon statements, actually the one Kakashi uses is slower as Obito warps objects faster than his main body and Kakashi Kamui's his target at the same speed as Obito warps himself.

What about Madara thinking a single direct hit from Gai would kill yet surviving after 4 EE's, a direct hit, and night Gai? What do you say about that?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 17, 2017)

Veracity said:


> In the panel you posted she clearly reacted. Nothing much too it but you aren't gonna actually try to fool me to believe that the exclamation mark and the lines focused on Sakura means she was completely unaware of what was going on. *Obito being able to Kamui Sakura in that situation doesn't even make sense, so let's just ignore that?* You're gonna have to provide a better example.



What are you talking about? my point was about reacting to the rod shaped TSB thrown at her by Madara.

Again how does her having an exclamation mark, which according to you means that she demonstrated some sort of meaningful "reaction" mean anything at all? What does this demonstrate?



> I looked at the panel. That's just because FTG was activated after Kamui and Minato was beginning to spiral into Kamui land. What else am I suppose to take from that seem?
> 
> If Minato escaped Obito's Kamui why can't he escape Kakashi's? They are the same speed as per canon statements, actually *the one Kakashi uses is slower as Obito warps objects faster than his main body and Kakashi Kamui's his target at the same speed as Obito warps himself*.



Based on what?

They aren't the same speed at all, not by cannon statements or by feats. Kakashi beat Obito's regular warping speed already. He warped Naruto's whole body in the fraction of the time that it took for Obito to finish warping the stake back into the real world from Kamui land.

If they were the same speed then that wouldn't have been the result.

In fact, Obito's self warp is so much slower than a regular Kamui, that he needed Kakashi to synchronize Kamui to double his self warp speed and barely escape the TSB projectile. Then a few moments later Obito comfortably warps Sakura using his regular Kamui when Madara shoot a TSB projectile at point blank.



> What about Madara thinking a single direct hit from Gai would kill yet surviving after 4 EE's, a direct hit, and night Gai? What do you say about that?



Minato said that after experiencing Kamui himself, it wasn't a hypothesis like Madara's statement.

Where does Madara say that exactly btw?


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## Veracity (Jul 17, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> What are you talking about? my point was about reacting to the rod shaped TSB thrown at her by Madara.
> 
> Again how does her having an exclamation mark, which according to you means that she demonstrated some sort of meaningful "reaction" mean anything at all? What does this demonstrate?
> 
> ...



It means exactly what any exclamation mark in the history of Naruto means. It means Sakura had a mental reaction. Now Sakura doesn't have any mental defense but to someone who possses them? It's important.

Kakashi Kamui'd Obito's Kamui and doubled its speed as per statements. Doubling something's speed means it's the exact same speed, especially in that instance. If it was any slower it would result in less than double the speed and if it was quicker than it would have resulted in more than double the speed.

That's because Obito had to warp the stake and it had to travel distance.

Obito's object warping speed> Obito's self warping speed = Kakashi's Kamui by literal statements. I would rather use that then inconsistent feats. Once JJ Madara appeared, The feats got wildly inconsistent let's not lie. I mean if you wanna use feats, then Minato was able to react to TSB, physically move and even fall down *all before *Kakashi could even react to use Kamui. So by that logic, the man isn't ever being pegged with Kamui. Aside from that Minato already reacted to Kamui touch *without knowledge*. I think he'll be fine.

Madara experienced Gai's power outright. He got pummeled by Gai's level one EE( the weakest one) and thought that he was going to be dead by one direct hit. But look what happened.


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## Hasan (Jul 17, 2017)

WorldsStrongest said:


> Theres a difference between a bit of dust being kicked up by extremely fast movement and what happens when you summon something and i think we both know that


Sorry 'bout that. Misread this bit, earlier. _Still_, doesn't really change Hiraishin being _Kuchiyose._



Veracity said:


> How does that refute what I said? I never disagreed with the time between the techniques being very thin? It is and that's part of my argument. Kakashi can't adjust something around instant speeds.


The discussion was originally started by you saying that we don’t know how long the Mazou stayed after Kakashi had used Kamui, which is slower than even the self-warp. If Mazou stayed long enough, its head would have rolled.



> Kakashi had Riduko enhanced Kamui against Kaguya. It wasn't simply just Kamui so I don't see why that's being escalated so heavily. Naruto trolled the hell out of Kaguya with Kage bunshin and the fate of the world stood on the clash between resengan and chidori. Kamui is nice and all but isn't isn't a end any being thing once it hits its target.


Well, I don’t see why Kakashi is being downplayed here. You people have no trouble asserting that Tobirama slapped a marker onto Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito, or that Minato did such and such - but it troubles you to admit that Kakashi, who started from the beginning [low-level with Kamui], progressed to a point where he was able to accomplish marvels?



> There are defenses.


Well, I never denied that—only that it's _extremely hard_.



> Kamui doesn't instantly do anything. That isn't in the data book and that hasn't ever been referenced in the manga. It is quick but it isn't instant. I don't see why Kishi would need to show Kamui step by step every time and even if it was "instant", there is still a time frame between being caught in the Barrier and being warped away, as evidence in the example I gave you.


The distortion you see in the barrier are caused by the warp (or the wrinkle, as the DB puts it). The barrier is formed, distorting.



> Can you explain the example I gave you that you seem to have ignored?


I didn’t ignore it; I accepted that there are few odd depictions that don’t match what is already established for Kakashi’s Kamui. You are bringing in these 2-3 depictions in opposition to a dozen or so instances that illustrate Kakashi’s Kamui being used as it should be—to prove that it works exactly the same as Obito’s “touch-warp” Kamui i.e. a small barrier was pulling in an entire Mazou, and failed because the latter was transported before it could completely pull in. Why does Kakashi need to specify bounds for the barrier, then?



> Because that's important and proves that someone like Minato or Tobirama will have time to jump away with no injuries and the panel I provided with Sakura proves that there is a sensation as soon as Kamui land - before one gets warped. I also never disagree to the differences between Obito and Kakashi's eye; after all one is offense and the other is defense.


Minato outright said that Obito will win, if he should be touched again (read: Hiraishin would fail). He barely won by using Obito’s gesture as a measure to plan his Hiraishin maneuver. Kakashi’s Kamui has *no such mechanical constraints*, so no indicator to go by.



> I just disagree with the notion that Kamui warps away the portion caught in the Barrier at instant speeds. That's hasn't been stated or even implied. Visually maybe? But a lot of things look visually instant. The time frame is important to speedsters here.


Consider the situation in these 3 cases [excluding the Mazou for obvious reasons], and then review your assertion that it’s slower than the self-warp:
​I didn't deny that there are instances where it's observably slow. Of course, you then introduced a 'hurdle' that there is a lapse in between the barrier formation and warp, which simply isn't true (discussed this above).



> Obito can't control the jump speed? I agree, good that we got that out of the way. Consider the fact that Madara stated that a direct hit from Gai in the 8th Gate would kill him and the entire battle was even focused around Madara not being hit; yet Madara was hit with four EE's, a direct hit from Gai, and then Night Gai and still survived. Seems like his word can't be taken at 100% face value at all times. same goes with Minato, it's more like being touched put him in a bad situation as opposed to outright losing.


Why must you insist upon looking at it, in isolation? Obito’s comment immediately follows his failure, which means he’s perfectly aware why it failed. In a way, he’s ‘explaining’. It’s akin to Kakashi failing against Deidara, then ‘explaining’ why he missed. Minato is in agreement with him, meaning he too, is aware why he managed to ‘escape’ - and why it won’t work again.

. . . And then you say, I am looking too much into an otherwise obvious thing? 




> The question mark is a reaction and appeared before Sakura was warped in, therefore it's a reaction.


Very much like their ‘reactions’ to Kaguya’s Amenominaka. In fact, her ‘reaction’ parallels Naruto’s, except Naruto looks down to realize that the field is now lava, while she seems clueless at first having been transported. I am not saying she didn’t react; maybe she could have, if the actual process was shown (it wasn’t). So, you can’t use it to postulate. . . anything.



Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) There is definitely Hirashin in that panel, it's just the part the caption describes. The seal.


​Those _headlines_ describing Hiraishin no Jutsu are _based off_ _this panel_. Even if you should disregard the main heading, that other one (highlighted) is describing _this panel_. It's _all over the databooks_ [an example]. Next time, they write databooks, instruct the editors to use Kakashi's Mangekyou Sharingan as the _main_ _picture _for Kamui entry, because that's clearly the point of Kamui's origin.




> 2) Why are you ignoring that that guy saw Minato's movements and commented on them as I said earlier.


What’s the problem? If you use Hiraishin to jump in between - it will be observed. Mahiru mentions it _after_.


> Or the databook and manga not mentioning the kunai in that scene.
> 
> 3) yes the caption that notes the seal being the importance of that picture.
> That caption.
> ...


The captions are textual aids; they describe _*what is already obvious from the picture*_. Skim through the databooks, that’s the purpose of captions [read the Kamui one, I posted earlier]: describe, with some added flavor text. Do you not see Minato _saving Kakashi_ and _placing a marker_, _the latter of which clearly accompanied by an SFX ["Mark"]_?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 17, 2017)

Veracity said:


> It means exactly what any exclamation mark in the history of Naruto means. It means Sakura had a mental reaction. Now Sakura doesn't have any mental defense but to someone who possses them? It's important.
> 
> Kakashi Kamui'd Obito's Kamui and doubled its speed as per statements. Doubling something's speed means it's the exact same speed, especially in that instance. If it was any slower it would result in double the speed and if it was quicker than it would have resulted in double the speed.
> 
> ...



How does her a mental reaction change anything? Like I said, how is this any different from any other scene where people have "mentally" reacted to attacks of all sort of speed? Hiraishin happens instantly but there is a delay from the moment it's activate to the moment Minato is actually teleported as show by the panels so nothing has changed here.

How can Kakashi Kamui Obito's Kamui? does he warp his legs and Obito warps his torso and then gets magically put together at the other side.

Like Obito mentions to Madara, the true power of the MS is when the eyes are put together, which they simulated. Meaning that self warp got a 2x boost and regular warping which faster than self warp would have gotten a 2x boost as well.

Kakashi's Kamui warps through a barrier that collapses on a singularity while Obito's spirals away, go look at the panel and tell me which one does it look like.

Naruto was closer to Obito than the stake's length and as the panel shows, he got warped before the stake was fully warped back to the real world.The stake didn't have to travel a single centimeter, it just wasn't fully warped. If you don't call that out speeding, then it's just plain denial '

Nope, Obito even mentions a few pages before, after he deflects the TSB's that his jumping speed is too slow, hence Kakashi synchronised MS being able to double his self warp.

Yes there are inconsistent feats, but this is not one of them. They go hand in hand with the irrefutable facts backed by feats and statement. Obito's self warp is slower than his regular Kamui which is <= Left eye Kamui.

The TSB's speed was matched by mere kunais twice, and you expect me to believe they are somehow untraceable by the same Kamui that vanished Susano arrows in an instant? Then Obito Kamui'ng Sakura before Madara's close range projectile hits her? 

Then Minato saying that Kakashi should be able to warp the TSB's after having seen their speed and Kakashi agreeing but saying that he couldn't aim far and needed to be really close to do so.

I looked at the panel and Madara says "getting hit by 4 or 5 of those would be bad, I should also avoid getting hit by the fists creating them". Nowhere does he say that he is going to die, nor does it change the fact that Minato spoke from experience and against a 14 year old Obito non the less, not an experienced older 30 yo Obito.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 17, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Sorry 'bout that. Misread this bit, earlier. _Still_, doesn't really change Hiraishin being _Kuchiyose._
> 
> 
> The discussion was originally started by you saying that we don’t know how long the Mazou stayed after Kakashi had used Kamui, which is slower than even the self-warp. If Mazou stayed long enough, its head would have rolled.
> ...


1) the caption describes the picture, the flavor text refers to the article.
You and I both see that the caption is about the seal, the sound effects are about the seal. The scene is about the seal.
But that somehow means the picture isn't about the seal? I don't understand you, honestly but I'd like to.

2) an example 
seriously, stop ignoring the fact that the guy could see Minato moving to save Kakashi so it couldn't have been Hiraishin. And the fact that the dagger reveal wasn't till later, and we diddnt know he could FTG to a kunai yet, and when that happens they mentioned it.
And FTG has its own scene right after with the bookbag falling.
None of the context agrees with your point but it doesn't make sense to ignore it because of that.

3) the links you posted still mostly don't work for me but the one I can see, Sasuke's fire jutsu the caption and pictures do the same thing.
A) show how it starts (the dragon forming)
B) then show the effects  (Itachi getting good burned)
Just like this one shows
A) you get sealed
B) you get dead.
Both of which perfectly match what the article says and the manga showed.


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## Veracity (Jul 17, 2017)

Hasan said:


> The discussion was originally started by you saying that we don’t know how long the Mazou stayed after Kakashi had used Kamui, which is slower than even the self-warp. If Mazou stayed long enough, its head would have rolled.
> 
> 
> Well, I don’t see why Kakashi is being downplayed here. You people have no trouble asserting that Tobirama slapped a marker onto Juubi Jinchuuriki Obito, or that Minato did such and such - but it troubles you to admit that Kakashi, who started from the beginning [low-level with Kamui], progressed to a point where he was able to accomplish marvels?
> ...


I actually insinuated that Kakashi's Kamui = Obito's self warp, not slower. That's what I stick by. It's head would not have rolled because it stayed long enough for his arm to get warped in but not long enough for his head to get warped. We' aren't gonna ignore the fact that clearly there is a time frame between those two.

Because Tobirama did lol? Nothing really to it, but the accusation that Kakashi needs only one distraction to take both Tobirama and Minato away at instant speeds is something that only you really agree with; not even the greatest of Kakashi supporters do.  Kakashi isn't that powerful, nor is Kamui. For you to say that anyone caught in the Barrier can't do shit about it and that the Barrier forms at such a ridiculous speed is almost like you admitting that Kakashi can defeat people like Sage Kabuto, Nagato and Hashirama. So again, is it me downplaying Kakashi or you overrating him?

Who can do it then? If Minato and Tobirama can't with instant defense, then who can? God tiers? Is Kakashi the bridge between normal shinobi and god tiers? No.

Then when the technique was slowed down to show its functions panel by panel,  Obito would have lost part of this body when Kakashi started to warp him but wasn't interrupted. That did not happen.

See it's about that point where I've lost interest again. The same conversation is being repeated at this point in different ways. This is usually the case with Kamui as people see the technique from different interpretations. I don't see Kamui as highly as you do, and it's pretty much at that point where we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Anyway, like I said the example is used is show Kakashi's Kamui panel by panel and to show what exactly happens when the technique is disrupted( Obito wasn't torn apart proving a time frame between barrier and tear, and proving that shinobi can actually defend) as opposed to those examples you used which don't have any cases of *teleportation or disruption.* Why would I use your examples, when the object that's being warped was done in fast time( Kishi doesn't show Kamui's function panel by panel, especially when trying to trick the reader and Obito), wanted to be warped, and wasn't interrupted/teleported during the Barrier? Those examples are different lol.

Because Kakashi still only warps what's within the Barrier, he controls the barrier to warp a larger portion. Simple.

Kakashi's Kamui does have constraints. The time between being caught in the Barrier and being warped is the constraint. That's why Obito didn't get warped as soon as Kakashi Kamui'd him and Sakura had a reaction to being hit with the Barrier. Kakashi's constraint = Barrier, while Obito's = physical touch. 

I never said that Kakashi's warp is slower than self warp, rather the same speed by what Kishi told us himself. It's a canon statement.

We both read exactly what Obito said though right? He never said anything about warping faster rather that he would warp _*sooner.*_ Which probably implied he would have warped Minato and caught him via a lack of knowledge. If were taking both statements at face value( this one and the whole whoever touches each other first wins one) then the scene doesn't make sense. Because Minato already reacted to Kamui mid-way without knowledge. If you are insinuating that Minato activated FTG at the same time as Obito activated Kamui then that isn't what was illustrated and Minato would not have been disorientated after FTG if not for the interference of Kamui.

Hmmm. Why must you insist on ignoring the difference between reacting during an attack and after lol? You cannot use a reaction *after* Ameno as an example. Like you understand that right..? Naruto reacting after Ameno is not the same as Sakura reacting during Kamui. And the exclamation mark is the reaction. How else is Kishi suppose to show a mental reaction in comparison to a physical one? Like really explain that? 

@Crimson Flam3s 

I'll get your post after I'm off work.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jul 17, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) the caption describes the picture, the flavor text refers to the article.
> You and I both see that the caption is about the seal, the sound effects are about the seal. The scene is about the seal.
> But that somehow means the picture isn't about the seal? I don't understand you, honestly but I'd like to.


Those captions [as I called text flavors, earlier] are for the individual panels (and of course, by default related to article). The “Swiftness that surpasses [Shunshin]” is for that main picture [it’s stemming from this panel, so you need not to figure out which panel  it ‘might’ be talking about]. Read the Databooks, no—

. . . I got it covered—some picks from the DBs consolidated in one picture for each of three databooks:

_[Translations are *not *mine; credits to the good folks who did all these DB translations]_

*Databook-I*

Shuriken Kage Bunshin no Jutsu: Dancing wildly are countless shadow blades!
Shunshin no Jutsu: The cloud of sand dances in the wind…
Shishi Rendan (Lion Combo): Leap and Dance / Splitting and Tearing Apart / The Lion’s Fangs.

*Databook-II*

_[A few translated captions]_

Chouji’s Choudan Bakugeki: One blinding punch that shakes the earth!! [bigger scan, so you can see the earth shaking]
Food Cart Destroyer: The groundbreaking fall of the giant Toad! [bigger scan, so you see the Toad breaking the ground]
Shukaku’s Fuuton: Renkuudan: The impact tears the forest apart!! [. . . tearing the forest apart]
Jiraiya’s Gamaguchi Shibari: An inescapable otherworldly space [Trapping Kisame and Itachi]
Tobirama’s Suiton: Suijinheki: A solid water fortress that erases the flames [countering Hiruzen’s Karyuu Endan]
Hiruzen’s Doton: Doryuuheki: A perfect blockade!! [blocking Tobirama’s Suiryuudan]


*Databook-III* (English / Japanese)



> 2) Japanese
> seriously, stop ignoring the fact that the guy could see Minato moving to save Kakashi so it couldn't have been Hiraishin. And the fact that the dagger reveal wasn't till later, and we diddnt know he could FTG to a kunai yet, and when that happens they mentioned it.
> And FTG has its own scene right after with the bookbag falling.
> None of the context agrees with your point but it doesn't make sense to ignore it because of that.


He notices Minato's movements _*after*_ the latter uses Hiraishin to appear in between him and Kakashi [i.e. teleportation jump is completed]. I see no problem with it [I said in the earlier post too].



> 3) the links you posted still mostly don't work for me but the one I can see, Sasuke's fire jutsu the caption and pictures do the same thing.
> A) show how it starts (the dragon forming)
> B) then show the effects  (Itachi getting good burned)
> Just like this one shows
> ...


No. This one says: Save Kakashi [1] and place marker [2], which is what already shown in the picture, and you’re omitting [1] for some reason. Sasuke’s Art of Dragon Flame is Dragon-shaped? Who would have guessed! _*These ‘picture comments’ are like that throughout the databooks *[Take Kamui's entry; what are they saying there?]_, and don’t constitute an argument. Databooks aren’t “step-by-step” manuals; only summaries of the volumes they cover; and aren’t proofs of any kind, except the stats [which people hardly believe in].

. . . Emphasis is *not *on placing the seal. It's just describing that he's saving Kakashi *and* placing the seal like it describes any other picture in the DBs. You're discarding the former to make it sound like that picture is used to illustrate a step in Hiraishin.

*EDIT:* _Fixed the link for DB-II._


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 18, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Those captions [as I called text flavors, earlier] are for the individual panels (and of course, by default related to article). The “Swiftness that surpasses [Shunshin]” is for that main picture [it’s stemming from this panel, so you need not to figure out which panel  it ‘might’ be talking about]. Read the Databooks, no—
> 
> . . . I got it covered—some picks from the DBs consolidated in one picture for each of three databooks:
> 
> ...


1) in almost every scan you posted the pics are a step by step of how the jutsu happens. This jutsu isn't different.
Your own scans support my point.
It's not actually less likely that the largest text describes the jutsu, and the captions add to the pictures and describes them like in most media.

2) I'm not ignoring anything, as you can see from most of your own scans the pics and captions are usually describing the steps e.g. 
Hiruzen spits mud! Now it's a wall!

Shukaku sucking in air. Then releasing it! Now the forest is wrecked.

Butterfly wings! Now it's in a fist! Look what the fist does!

But this one isn't, you get marked, you get dead?

It's here's an unexplained Hiraishin, when him being able to FTG to the kunai isn't mentioned until later, or even in the picture caption? 
I find that less likely.

3) are you trying to say its more likely the guy saw only him jump away and was flabbergasted? 
Do you honestly find that more likely that Hiraishin got two introductions back to back with only one mentioned, than first is Minato's speed  and then Hirashin?
Or that the author uses the kunai thing twice but fails to note or mention it to the audience the first time?

Honest questions, no need for the snark.


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## Hasan (Jul 18, 2017)

@Veracity . . . will reply shortly in few hours. The formatted post messed up the links. . .



Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) in almost every scan you posted the pics are a step by step of how the jutsu happens. This jutsu isn't different.
> Your own scans support my point.
> It's not actually less likely that the largest text describes the jutsu, and the captions add to the pictures and describes them like in most media.


In all those scans, those captions are describing the panels, while you extracted the ‘ jutsu rules’ from them. It hardly requires an explanation. 




> 2) I'm not ignoring anything,


Erm, actually. . . you are—

_Picture Comment, Hiraishin no Jutsu:_ _“*He saves Kakashi* and at the same time, leaves a [jutsu-shiki] on the enemy’s. . . “_
​
Where have you mentioned Kakashi, when you repeatedly asserted that the comment was talking the seal? It’s not talking about the seal. . . It’s talking about Kakashi *and* the seal, and no relative importance is given to either. I suspect, mentioning Kakashi would have you question: why? Of course, if you assert that it’s talking about the seal, then it stands reason that ‘saving Kakashi’ has to do with Hiraishin as well. . . and since Kakashi is not part of the jutsu-mechanism, it logically follows that Minato saved Kakashi using Hiraishin. That's not my point of view, though.




> as you can see from most of your own scans the pics and captions are usually describing the steps e.g.
> Hiruzen spits mud! Now it's a wall!
> 
> Shukaku sucking in air. Then releasing it! Now the forest is wrecked.
> ...


The databooks’ choice of words for the captions is careful and contextual. As I said, you extracted the ‘rules’ — quote those captions. Chouji’s Choudan Bakugeki doesn’t shake earth as a rule; Shukaku’s Fuuton: Renkuudan isn’t strictly used to destroy forests et cetera. The caption isn’t saying that Hiruzen ‘creates a wall’, does it? The word ‘blockade’ has an attached connotation which is appropriate to the panel used; Hiruzen ‘created a wall’ to *block* the suiton. Of course, one can go with examples - contention was merely to give you an idea that those captions are for individual panels.



> It's here's an unexplained Hiraishin, when him being able to FTG to the kunai isn't mentioned until later, or even in the picture caption?
> I find that less likely.


Do you not find it curious that Minato is positioned awkwardly when 'appearing' to save Kakashi? Why not just, you know, bash the guy's brains out with a kunai?

. . . Well, it's mentioned shortly after, when Minato instructs his squad to redirect the kunai for him. One wonders, if that's how he got to Kakashi, having given him one of those kunai. . . I mean, if one wants to go by the _kunai-argument_.



> 3) are you trying to say its more likely the guy saw only him jump away and was flabbergasted?


I’m saying when Minato appeared in between Kakashi and him, he reacted to Minato. That is, Mahiru is saying that Minato got in between him and Kakashi. . . He didn’t react to Hiraishin itself, but when Minato ‘appeared’. . . he noticed. Hardly problematic.



> Do you honestly find that more likely that Hiraishin got two introductions back to back with only one mentioned, than first is Minato's speed  and then Hirashin?
> Or that the author uses the kunai thing twice but fails to note or mention it to the audience the first time?
> 
> Honest questions, no need for the snark.


Yes, because such things hardly matter. When Itachi first used Amaterasu to escape Gamaguchi Shibari, it was just that. . . he used some black flames to escape. It got a proper introduction some 250 chapters later. But you do know that this got a full-page for a demonstration, right?

*EDIT: *Having said that; my argument's mainly the panel _itself_ i.e. Minato's _'pose'_ when appearing and where he actually appears. . . it's all evident from the way panel is drawn. Even the progression (leading to this panel) in the manga suggests it.


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## Hasan (Jul 18, 2017)

*[Long reply, and responding to different user. . . so a separate post]*



Veracity said:


> I actually insinuated that Kakashi's Kamui = Obito's self warp, not slower. That's what I stick by.


Oh? Right! Remembered incorrectly. . . Still—



> It's head would not have rolled because it stayed long enough for his arm to get warped in but not long enough for his head to get warped. We' aren't gonna ignore the fact that clearly there is a time frame between those two.


You don’t realize the problem, do you? It doesn’t matter whether the warp was instantaneous, or slow as a turtle. What did you say? Yes, we don’t when the Mazou was transported after Kamui had been used.

Let’s assume that it’s the speed of the self-warp—we have a rough idea of how slow it is, from the fact that Konan could redirect the surrounding explosive tags at Obito and hit him. If Mazou’s arm got pulled, then—

The Mazou stayed for ‘sufficiently’ long duration that the warp completed. When did Kakashi warp Naruto’s clone; or the Hachibi; or Minato’s Rasengan? Yes, the very last moment before impact. If Mazou stayed for that much time, then Kakashi could have stretched and shifted the barrier to Mazou’s head. He had much time.

If you say that the summoning was interrupted, in order to resolve the issue that Kakashi couldn’t stretch the barrier in time, you are running in contradiction to your assertion that it’s the speed of the self-warp. Keep that [contradiction] aside for a moment. . . if summoning was interrupted and Kakashi’s Kamui is slow (i.e. on par with self-warp), then—

The warp wasn’t completed, yet the Mazou’s arm was locked in the Kamui barrier space, and teleportation didn’t help it. In other words, once the barrier is formed, getting out is impossible. It doesn’t matter if the Kuchiyose no Jutsu is unconventionally used, Hiraishin no Jutsu uses the same medium to transport the user.

Then, to ‘resolve’ the obvious problem stemming from it, you introduced the hurdle that barrier and warp are separate, yet the manga has established otherwise. I’ll detail below. . .

Then, in a complete turn around, you  introduced the notion that Kakashi’s Kamui is the same as Obito’s “touch-warp” Kamui i.e. the Mazou was altogether being pulled into barrier, and by the time, Madara interrupted it, only the arm had been transported (the rest wasn’t)—

*Kakashi:* _“I still can’t properly control the location and size of the barrier limiting the area. . .”_

*Databook III:* _“He [Kakashi] is able to specify the barrier’s location and size at will. . .” (echoing the same thing as above)_

Location? Fine, Kakashi doesn’t need to touch the opponent. Why about the size? Kakashi’s Kamui requires him to specify the bounds for the barrier he creates. You have yet to answer this question. You have answered this below, completely contradicting yourself once more. How is it that you don't see it?

It's like you have convinced yourself that Kakashi isn't strong, so you look at an instance where he appears to be [strong], you introduce a 'problem', from which sprouts another. . . and another until the issue becomes a convulated mess. It's. . . _messy_.



> Because Tobirama did lol?


Kakashi did too [something of his own], yet here we are. . .



> Nothing really to it, but the accusation that Kakashi needs only one distraction to take both Tobirama and Minato away at instant speeds is something that only you really agree with; not even the greatest of Kakashi supporters do.  Kakashi isn't that powerful, nor is Kamui.


It’s an efficient plan, and a sensible one. Can Obito distract the two? Yes. Will he face trouble? No. Why? Because right-eye Kamui. Obito can just waltz in there; keep the two preoccupied, whilst Kakashi prepares his left-eye Kamui. It's easy for Obito to distract those two, while Kakashi is more equipped for offense. . . It's the two of them, _*together.*_

. . . The full power of Kamui i.e. both eyes, Kishimoto reserved for the *final villain*—essentially the series' last major power-up. Considering his [Kishimoto] style, that alone speaks volumes; and then you have a proper demonstration against a powered-up Kaguya. Kamui is that powerful, regardless of Kakashi's standing amongst other characters.



> For you to say that anyone caught in the Barrier can't do shit about it and that the Barrier forms at such a ridiculous speed is almost like you admitting that Kakashi can defeat people like Sage Kabuto, Nagato and Hashirama. So again, is it me downplaying Kakashi or you overrating him?


Yet, you have no problem saying Minato and Tobirama have instant defenses; almost sounds like you're saying none can catch them. . . 

Concerning the barrier, I'm *not *saying this; it's in the manga—

*Exhibit A*

Kakashi activates Kamui. The scenery starts to shift that very instance [1] / Now it's visibly distorted. This distorted scenery is caused due to the barrier collapsing—this is the barrier / Deidara notices what’s causing the abnormality. . . realizes it’s the ‘wrinkle’ (point of distortion as I called it earlier) [2] / See this whole distorted scenery once again? That’s the barrier collapsing onto the wrinkle shown earlier [3] / We now see the barrier centering on Deidara’s arm [4] / Deidara finally comments that his arm is getting pulled in, while Kakashi indicates something’s wrong 5] / He deactivates the jutsu, while you see Deidara getting completely torn [6]/ Kakashi comments that he missed, because he was unable to properly specify the size and location of the barrier. He starts again, and once more, you see the barrier collapsing around Deidara [7, 8]  / He abruptly ends it, as Naruto intervenes [9].

*Exhibit B*

Explosion expanding onwards [1] / Scene suddenly shifts, but we notice a hissing sound as the dust clears[2] / Everyone’s wondering what’s happening [3] / We are now shown what everyone’s seeing - explosion vanishing as the barrier space is closing in on the wrinkle [4].


*Exhibit C*



*Exhibit D*



*Exhibit E*



This one extremely slowed down to depict connection between Naruto's punch, the kunai, and scratch on Obito's mask. First hint of the barrier—already in distortion (i.e. kunai being warped)


*Exhibit F*




Barriers, everywhere—distorting upon formation, due to the wrinkle [read: warp upon impact]. This is Kakashi's Kamui established [stated and depicted], and once again, I'm mindful 2-3 instances like that Sakura one, where the depiction is off. I excluded the ones like the Hachibi, because Kamui is not shown in effect in those instances, or properly.



> Who can do it then? If Minato and Tobirama can't with instant defense, then who can? God tiers? Is Kakashi the bridge between normal shinobi and god tiers? No.


Minato and Tobirama are *not* _that level_ by any stretch of imagination.



> Then when the technique was slowed down to show its functions panel by panel,  Obito would have lost part of this body when Kakashi started to warp him but wasn't interrupted. That did not happen.
> 
> 
> See it's about that point where I've lost interest again. The same conversation is being repeated at this point in different ways. This is usually the case with Kamui as people see the technique from different interpretations. I don't see Kamui as highly as you do, and it's pretty much at that point where we are gonna have to agree to disagree. Anyway, like I said the example is used is show Kakashi's Kamui panel by panel and to show what exactly happens when the technique is disrupted( Obito wasn't torn apart proving a time frame between barrier and tear, and proving that shinobi can actually defend) as opposed to those examples you used which don't have any cases of teleportation or disruption. Why would I use your examples, when the object that's being warped was done in fast time( Kishi doesn't show Kamui's function panel by panel, especially when trying to trick the reader and Obito), wanted to be warped, and wasn't interrupted/teleported during the Barrier? Those examples are different lol.



What are you talking about? When they utilize the power of both eyes together? What led to it [see Obito setting the precedent]? It’s not some sort of *chimera-Kamui* you are alluding to [I skimmed through your discussion with @Crimson Flam3s]. It’s Kakashi’s ‘eye-power’ speeding up the jump. It’s both eyes together, working synchronously. ‘Kamui’ is an umbrella term that covers the variety of functions that Obito’s eyes have, and what set left and right apart are only three functions unique to them. That is not Kakashi using his original ability (i.e. specify barrier size); he is simply using ‘Kamui’ to speed up Obito’s jump. This is whole deal about the “power of both eyes”. Otherwise—

Madara says that if Obito engages him, Kakashi will transport Obito from behind (i.e. Obito doesn’t have to do a self-warp). Why is Madara saying this, if Kakashi's Kamui is as fast as a self-warp?



> Because Kakashi still only warps what's within the Barrier, he controls the barrier to warp a larger portion. Simple.


. . . And what did you say about Kakashi's Kamui = Obito's "touch-warp Kamui" and that summoning interrupted Kamui, before it could get to Mazou's head? 

I'm surprised, you don't see the contradictions in your assertions. . .



> Kakashi's Kamui does have constraints. The time between being caught in the Barrier and being warped is the constraint. That's why Obito didn't get warped as soon as Kakashi Kamui'd him and Sakura had a reaction to being hit with the Barrier. Kakashi's constraint = Barrier, while Obito's = physical touch.


Already addressed them above.




> I never said that Kakashi's warp is slower than self warp, rather the same speed by what Kishi told us himself. It's a canon statement.


Doesn’t matter — self-warp is still very slow. You're willing to assert something, but not accept the obvious implications that it has. If Kakashi’s Kamui was that level of speed, the stake would have hit Naruto’s clone [it was about to hit him]; Juubi’s blast would have hit the Hachibi [the blast was about to hit the Hachibi] and. . . Rasengan would have drilled through Kakashi. . . and the Susanou arrows would have impaled Kakashi. . .

The self-warp was slow enough that Konan could redirect the surrounding paper bombs at Obito with a sure hit. Obito outright cursed Kakashi, when he realized that the latter blasted the clone faster the stake hit it. He warped the Hachibi so fast, that Madara thought it [Hachibi] had been done in; Minato, the poster boy for ‘top-notch reflexes’ couldn’t tell if Kakashi had warped his Rasengan (nor could he tell what happened with Mazou).




> We both read exactly what Obito said though right? He never said anything about warping faster rather that he would warp sooner. Which probably implied he would have warped Minato and caught him via a lack of knowledge. If were taking both statements at face value( this one and the whole whoever touches each other first wins one) then the scene doesn't make sense. Because Minato already reacted to Kamui mid-way without knowledge. If you are insinuating that Minato activated FTG at the same time as Obito activated Kamui then that isn't what was illustrated and Minato would not have been disorientated after FTG if not for the interference of Kamui.



That’s the point, he didn’t. He jumped just before Obito used Kamui, and the reason he was able to, was because Obito talked [“You’re my opponent. . . “]. That’s why Obito said, he would warp Minato the instant he would lay his hand upon the latter i.e. no talking – just straight to the business. Minato wouldn’t have been able to do it then i.e. escape. That means, mid-warp jump is incorrect reading. Which is why when you refer back to that page, you see Kamui being depicted like it never has been i.e. you see Minato horribly disfigured by the warp, and the earlier panel, you see him forming a hand seal. . . That is, by the time Obito activated Kamui, Minato had already made the jump (activated Hiraishin). But because Kamui itself is fast too, you are seeing both of them being in-effect in a slowed-down sequence. This is how you do a slow down sequence, unlike Guy vs. Madara.

I find merit in him being disoriented due to Kamui, yes. I consider it more probable that he, sensing danger, instinctively made a jump—and that contributed to such disorientation.

By postulating mid-warp escape, you people are essentially arguing that Kishimoto made an error on this very page, which is impossible. Beside that Obito's comment directly follows from and is made in light of the event [shows Kishimoto being mindful], this is. . . absurd. As I said earlier, I don't believe Kishimoto is perfectly consistent, but this mistake seems impossible, considering you have sound evidence that he knew what he was doing. All else is then. . . bias for Minato and defiance of logic.



> Hmmm. Why must you insist on ignoring the difference between reacting during an attack and after lol? You cannot use a reaction after Ameno as an example. Like you understand that right..? Naruto reacting after Ameno is not the same as Sakura reacting during Kamui.


The difference is inconsequential because it has no bearing on what the reactions actually are. It's not before and after—it's *change*. Kaguya cast Amenominaka, and Naruto has no idea that some change has taken place intially. Kakashi cast Kamui, Sakura has no idea (and we're cut off). The two panels with Sakura actually add up: She is utterly clueless when Kakashi uses Kamui, and she is utterly clueless landing in the Timespace. It's almost as if she felt a sensation, looked around [Voila! You're in the Timespace].



> And the exclamation mark is the reaction. How else is Kishi suppose to show a mental reaction in comparison to a physical one? Like really explain that?


It's not an exclamation mark by itself — [!?] is a single entity. It's more in line with a sensation, as I originally had said.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Veracity (Jul 18, 2017)

I'll get to that tomorrow. I got some sleeping to do lol


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 18, 2017)

Hasan said:


> @Veracity . . . will reply shortly in few hours. The formatted post messed up the links. . .
> 
> 
> In all those scans, those captions are describing the panels, while you extracted the ‘ jutsu rules’ from them. It hardly requires an explanation.
> ...


1) yes by looking at what the pictures show, ya know the steps of the jutsu, 
I surmise that's the pictures show the steps of the jutsu. Is that crazy?
Hardly, Requires an explanation ? It's the data book, it's what it's there for.

2)


Hi no Ishi said:


> That scene shows Kakashi get saved by Minato's speed, and the guy there after grumbles about "that guys movements".
> Then when he actually uses the actual tech it's to appear behind that dude.
> Hence, why those two scenes are used, and why the caption is about the seal not the movement at first.



Here's me talking about Kakashi getting saved by Minato's speed. You think it was by Hirashin. That's not me ignoring anything, that's us feeling differently about the info presented. 
Nor is it what ever you belive my motives to be for not doing a thing that, in reality I clearly did.

3) Semantic difference is semantic.
I point out that almost all the pictures are in a step by step of the jutsu's usage, which you said it wasn't.

The pics and captions clearly are in that format but you, say they're not because the wall ( a continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land."a garden wall"
synonyms: barrier, partition, enclosure, screen, panel, divider was a blockade (seal off (a place) to prevent goods or people from entering or leaving. synonyms: barricade, block off, shut off, seal)

As if those were completely unrelated things. Or that because Shukaku’s Justu was shown blowing up a forest the pics are unimportant because the Justu doesn't always have to blow up a forest?
As if that means the pictures arent showing a step by step.

What kind of mental gymnastics is that?
What kind of argument is that?
I enjoy your posts usually, but that's far below your usual quality.

4) no I don't find Minato showing up in the perfect position to save Kakashi and mark his opponent for FTG use odd.
I would find it more odd that neither the manga or data book mention teleportation to the kunai in that scene rather than that he simply was being fast ass Minato and marked the guy for later.

5) a lot of your arguments are seem to be about "why didn't X character do You action instead of what X did in the manga" which is fine to feel that way but, as I have said before I didn't write the manga I can't help you with those.

6) Amaterasu also got, a whole "holy shit he can burn my frog" and "I better seal this shit" and a Itachi running out of juice scene to go with it. So not the same thing.

I simply don't have a good reason to believe that the first jump was Hirashin.
As @Veracity pointed out Hirashin is focused on every time its used and how it's used is focused on.
The only Hiraishin I see for sure happening is the marking in that scene. The context agrees.


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## JiraiyaFlash (Jul 18, 2017)

Look at the facts.. Now Minato aint has a dying wife/lover or newborn son to worry or village to protect !? 
He has Tobirama instead. 

And Obito probably better than his teen self but he aint has Kyuubi instead he has Kakashi now (huge lost here since %100 Kyuubi >>>>>>> Kakashi) 

So this is basically same Minato Vs OBito but this time Minato has far more advantage on Obito... If Minato manage to deal with him and kurama before in far worse situation with a lot of responsibility.

now he can relax and just can kick some asses with Nidaime.

2nd Scenario:

Obito has GM and Jinc Paths ? If he had then Kamui team probably would win. otherwsie Hirashin duo again.

Reactions: Like 1


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## Hasan (Jul 18, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) yes by looking at what the pictures show, ya know the steps of the jutsu,
> I surmise that's the pictures show the steps of the jutsu. Is that crazy?
> Hardly, Requires an explanation ? It's the data book, it's what it's there for.



I am talking about the *captions*. Their text pertains to what is shown in those individual panels, to which they are ‘attached’. You can extract the ‘steps’ all you want. . . does not change the fact, those captions are for specific panels used for the entry.



> 2)Here's me talking about Kakashi getting saved by Minato's speed. You think it was by Hirashin. That's not me ignoring anything, that's us feeling differently about the info presented.
> Nor is it what ever you belive my motives to be for not doing a thing that, in reality I clearly did.


Clearly, I brought it _in relation to _the _*picture comment*_, upon which relies your entire argument. You're using it as an evidence for the _depiction of step ["It mentions seal, which is what what's shown. . ."]._ No, it mentions 'saving Kakashi, which is also shown' yet you never mention [picture comment, seal, Kakashi] in a single sentence.

You’re justifying Kakashi’s exclusion based on your *assumption* that Minato saved him using Shunshin . . . to prove that he’s using Shunshin, so the picture comment is about the seal first. . . It's not about the seal. . . It's not about Kakashi either. _*It's about both, because that's the purpose of these comments in the databooks*: describe what's happening in the picture, with occasional flavor text. _

_**_




> 3) Semantic difference is semantic.
> I point out that almost all the pictures are in a step by step of the jutsu's usage, which you said it wasn't.
> 
> The pics and captions clearly are in that format but you, say they're not because the wall ( a continuous vertical brick or stone structure that encloses or divides an area of land."a garden wall"
> ...


I’ll (try to) make this simple—

Do you agree that the caption [“The impact tears the forest  apart!!”] is based off this panel?
​
What is the caption for the panel in question saying—?
​

_Swiftness that Surpasses “Shunshin”!!_​

I am saying no more than that. This is why semantics are important. . . The captions are describing the panels, to which they are linked. So why does the CHIEF PANEL have that caption, incidentally depicting a swift movement, and similarly with all others. I get that Hiruzen erected a wall, but the words [完全阻止!!] are in context of Hiruzen blocking Tobirama’s Suiton attack. Curious, you ignored Sasuke’s Shishi Rendan, which have 3 captions.

The point of all this? _*Look at the caption for the panel, you’re saying, is depicting regular Shunshin*_. You’re getting muddled up in the examples, the point of which was to illustrate this very idea [look at the caption]. Incidentally, it has nothing whatsoever to do with “seal of doom!” which you’re alluding, is the purpose of the panel.




> 4) no I don't find Minato showing up in the perfect position to save Kakashi and mark his opponent for FTG use odd.
> I would find it more odd that neither the manga or data book mention teleportation to the kunai in that scene rather than that he simply was being fast ass Minato and marked the guy for later.
> 
> 5) a lot of your arguments are seem to be about "why didn't X character do You action instead of what X did in the manga" which is fine to feel that way but, as I have said before I didn't write the manga I can't help you with those.


And yours is, Kishimoto not spoonfeeding us. What if I should say, the whole point of this scene is Mahiru’s late-realization of the ‘flee-on-sight’ order? That he should have ran away [wouldn’t have helped, but that’s beside the point] the moment, he saw Minato in action i.e. using Hiraishin to save Kakashi?



> 6) Amaterasu also got, a whole "holy shit he can burn my frog" and "I better seal this shit" and a Itachi running out of juice scene to go with it. So not the same thing.
> 
> I simply don't have a good reason to believe that the first jump was Hirashin.
> As @Veracity pointed out Hirashin is focused on every time its used and how it's used is focused on.
> The only Hiraishin I see for sure happening is the marking in that scene. The context agrees.


Well, re-read the chapter, then—see what precedes it, and how that zooms into this scene.



JiraiyaFlash said:


> Look at the facts.. Now Minato aint has a dying wife/lover or newborn son to worry or village to protect !?


It’s always interesting to see Obito’s predicament being undermined by Minato’s already-taken-care-of problems.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 19, 2017)

Hasan said:


> I am talking about the *captions*. Their text pertains to what is shown in those individual panels, to which they are ‘attached’. You can extract the ‘steps’ all you want. . . does not change the fact, those captions are for specific panels used for the entry.
> 
> 
> Clearly, I brought it _in relation to _the _*picture comment*_, upon which relies your entire argument. You're using it as an evidence for the _depiction of step ["It mentions seal, which is what what's shown. . ."]._ No, it mentions 'saving Kakashi, which is also shown' yet you never mention [picture comment, seal, Kakashi] in a single sentence.
> ...


1) the part with the arrow pointed towards the pic is the caption not red part. So no it doesn't say "Swiftness surpassing Shunshin" about that pic. As you know.
Its also clearly showing how the Justus happen in most of the pics as I said.
Saying "it's a caption" over and over time distract from what they are generally doing is disingenuous at best.
No one said there weren't captions lol.

Saying "most of the pics..." over and over also is not ignoring scans lol. It's literally the opposite as it acknowledges that there are outliers.

On the other hand saying that the pics aren't showing the steps when most clearly do, saying I have ignored Kakashi being saved when it's one of my first posts in this convo, and never addressing the fact that neither manga nor databook saying he FTG'd to the kunai, is definitely ignoring stuff.

2) Your assuming that he is using Hiraishin to save Kakashi and not just placing the seal the base of your arguments apparently (correct me if I'm mistaken).
I tend not to assume a thing not stated in the manga unless I have fairly solid evidence. Especially when there is a more reasonable option.
This is where we differ.

3) You're saying that I'm both ignoring Kakashi being saved, and assuming it was Shunshin, which is confusing, and contradictory.

4) not getting muddled up in examples lol.
 So basically ignore the way most of that the DB pics are set up, assume he Hiraishined to save him when it doesn't say that anywhere, assume there is an odd double reveal where one is clear and one is not, assume that whole scene isn't to show a) Minato is fast b) Minato can teleport, and c) Minato will is BA af but only part of that even that's what I saw.

That's not a "re read the chapter" problem, that's a "please assume a bunch of things problem"


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## Hasan (Jul 19, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) the part with the arrow pointed towards the pic is the caption not red part. So no it doesn't say "Swiftness surpassing Shunshin" about that pic. As you know.
> Its also clearly showing how the Justus happen in most of the pics as I said.
> Saying "it's a caption" over and over time distract from what they are generally doing is disingenuous at best.
> No one said there weren't captions lol.
> ...


It’s read top-down, and right-to-left and visibly linked to the ‘Shunshin’ scan, from where it stems. The text itself leaves no doubt. . .

It’s how the databooks are written. It’s not most, rather it’s true for _all _the panels that have captions.



> Its also clearly showing how the Justus happen in most of the pics as I said.





> On the other hand saying that the pics aren't showing the steps when most clearly do,


That’s not my contention; I only said, some panels have captions. . . Swiftness that surpasses “Shunshin” is the caption for the panel in question. If it’s not Hiraishin, then why this caption? _Simple—!_



> aying I have ignored Kakashi being saved when it's one of my first posts in this convo, and never addressing the fact that neither manga nor databook saying he FTG'd to the kunai, is definitely ignoring stuff.





> 3) You're saying that I'm both ignoring Kakashi being saved, and assuming it was Shunshin, which is confusing, and contradictory.


Er, I only said so in relation to the picture comment, which you are using as a proof that the panel is not depicting Hiraishin. This is the translated text for the comment:

_“He saves Kakashi while at the same places a [jutsu-shiki] on the enemy’s. . .”_

To quote you:



Hi no Ishi said:


> You and I both see that the caption is about the seal, the sound effects are about the seal. The scene is about the seal.
> But that somehow means the picture isn't about the seal? I don't understand you, honestly but I'd like to.


Don’t you see the difference in what your assertion is, and the comment above? Why is Kakashi _not mentioned_, when the comment clearly does? You twisted the comment by introducing a context, when none is there—

You extracted the seal part, discarded the Kakashi one based on your assumption that Minato didn’t use Hiraishin to posit that the comment is about the seal. . . to prove that assumption. You’re trying to prove a statement by assuming that the statement is _already true _. The fact, picture comment mentions Kakashi should have stopped you right there. . .



> 2) Your assuming that he is using Hiraishin to save Kakashi and not just placing the seal the base of your arguments apparently (correct me if I'm mistaken).
> I tend not to assume a thing not stated in the manga unless I have fairly solid evidence. Especially when there is a more reasonable option.
> This is where we differ.


Indeed, I believe it's clear from the _manga.
_


> 4) not getting muddled up in examples lol.
> So basically ignore the way most of that the DB pics are set up, assume he Hiraishined to save him when it doesn't say that anywhere, assume there is an odd double reveal where one is clear and one is not, assume that whole scene isn't to show a) Minato is fast b) Minato can teleport, and c) Minato will is BA af but only part of that even that's what I saw.
> 
> That's not a "re read the chapter" problem, that's a "please assume a bunch of things problem"


You misunderstood why I took trouble to collect all those panels with captions (or flavor texts):



Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) the caption describes the picture, the _*flavor text refers to the article*._


Well? As I said, you can extract the ‘steps’ all you want—it doesn’t change the fact, they are captions (or flavor texts) for specific panels. That was the point of it all—*t*_*o get you to read the caption for the ‘Shunshin’ panel*_.


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 20, 2017)

Hasan said:


> It’s read top-down, and right-to-left and visibly linked to the ‘Shunshin’ scan, from where it stems. The text itself leaves no doubt. . .
> 
> It’s how the databooks are written. It’s not most, rather it’s true for _all _the panels that have captions.
> 
> ...


1) There is a frigging arrow pointed towards the pic in question from the actual caption. 

2) Its not that I introduced context, it's that you ignored context for your arguments to make sense.

3) How is me saying that likely Kakashi got saved by Minato's speed and then just placed the FTG seal then, not addressing Kakashi getting saved?

4) Hi pot this is kettle speaking, Your whole argument is based off of assumptions. As I noted earlier.

5) Your scans mostly just proved toy wrong instead. You said they didn't show the steps of the jutsu but they mostly do irl.
You said I didn't mention Kakashi, I did.
You want everyone to assume that first movement was Hirashin, no where does it say that.
 Nor would it make sense from a story telling POV to do a double reveal of both the ftg and level 2 and without a mention of one of those things.


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## Veracity (Jul 20, 2017)

Hasan said:


> *[Long reply, and responding to different user. . . so a separate post]*
> 
> 
> Oh? Right! Remembered incorrectly. . . Still—
> ...



Actually, the speed of the warp does matter a lot( as there is a time frame in between the Barrier being placed on the target and the Barrier being warped) especially in this situation. I don't necessarily even understand what you are trying to postulate, as certain aspects of the conversation are being misinterpreted( probably in both sides tbh).


Why are we assuming that the speed of the warp is the same as self warp speed? It isn't an assumption, it's what's been stated in the manga; but I'll get to that later. The full warp for the Gedo wasn't necessarily completed at all, it was interrupted. We cannot use the Kamui example against Naruto's bunshin or the Raiton Kunai as justification because the scene was illustrated to not show the stages in which Kamui was used. Clearly it's uses were illustrated as sped up so that reader didn't piece together the fact that Obito and Kakashi were using the same technique. Obito also isn't placing much focus on the warp initiated, as he hasn't pieced together the ends and outs of Kakashi's technique. After finding it out, the illustrations change, and you can clearly see that Kakashi's Kamui isn't " instantly" warping in the target, rather slowing{ or depicted as slowly when focusing on the stages of the warp} warping in portions as seen when Naruto's resengan was slowly appearing piece by piece in Obito's Kamui land. Of course this appeared as instant when illustrated directly in the manga, but when it's broken down, one can clearly see that it's still warping in the technique piece at a time. This is essentially akin to when Obito began to warp Minato before the latter used FTG to teleport away. There are differences in the technique, but like Kakashi's, Minato wouldn't have just appeared all together in Kamui land but parts of his body were warping into the dimension after another.


Your next part is still confusing. The Kamui was interrupted by the teleportation. If Kakashi was in fact aiming for the head, then the arm disappearing instead cannot be a product of the warp finishing. Kakashi was never even aiming for the head in the first place; which also makes this feat somewhat confusing. Again, if Kakashi aimed for the head, then why was the arm locked in Kamui space instead of his head?


Naw. Kakashi's Kamui isn't exactly like Obito's self warp, but it still pulls the target piece at a time, instead of the entire thing at once; as evidenced when Naruto's resengan appeared piece at a time in the Kamui dimension.


Again, you aren't necessarily being clear; like at all. It's like there's implication of a question mapped out between a multitude of essays and I'm suppose to know exactly what you are implying in some of the passages? Like I guess I can't complain based on the format of my posts but I really am confused as to what question I didn't answer regarding Kamui's size and location?


No I just don't think Kamui is unavoidable like you seem to. The notion that nobody can escape once in the Barrier is only shared by you and Crimson; so it isn't necessarily popular and it almost takes top tier levels of mental gymnastics to understand when ignoring various panels of Kamui and accepting others.



What Kakashi can do isn't crystal clear at all when his usage and proficiency with Kamui changes based on experience, MS strain, and whatever chakra he's being boosted by, layered with the fact that you have openly admitted to ignoring panels of Kamui because just fuck it at times.  Tobirama tagging Juubito on other hand? Pretty clear.


Obito can not distract both Tobirama and Minato. That is your first problem. Both have Kage bunshin, top tier reactions, top tier intelligence, FTG, and faster than " Sage Naruto can react" footspeed so I'd assume Obito wouldn't ruin their day and I'd assume they would close the distance between themselves and Kakashi almost instantly.


Riduko enhanced Kamui was used for Kaguya. Do not forget that.


Minato and Tobirama do have insane defenses. FTG is activated mentally. And me stating that Minato and Tobirama can avoid Kamui the moment it touches them isn't out of line thinking like Kakashi being able to warp anyone under god tier with Kamui. One makes Minato and Tobirama quick; the other makes Kakashi damn near god tier.


Exhibit A: Deidara wasn't fast enough to escape the AoE Kamui. Makes sense. Deidara also came teleport with a thought. Would that beginning level Kamui also have taken off Minato or Tobirama's arm? No, cause it's null and void to teleporters.


Exhibit B: The explosion wasn't fast enough to outpace the speed of Kamui. Kamui was quicker and sucked in the explosion before it could effect anyone. Again, this example is null and void because the speed of teleportation trumps the speed of an explosion.


Exhibit C: Kakashi warping the rocket simply means that his Kamui speed trumps that of a rocket. But FTG> rocket speed by massive amounts. Again, the example used is null and void.


Exhibit D: Kakashi attempting to warp in the Gedo but Obito interrupting it with his own Kamui. How does this example mean that whatever is caught in the Barrier is stuck?


Exhibit E: Kakashi warping his own Kunai. I don't exactly see how that means that the Kunai was stuck in the Barrier? Also that example was not slowed down as much as they example showing Naruto's resengan being ported into Kamui land.


One thing I would like to point out is the fact that all the examples you used are before Kakashi and Obito drew a link between their Kamui techniques. The illustration of the technique had to have been different than Obito's because the reader wasn't suppose I know the link between the two.


Did I ever say Minato or Tobirama we're even close to that level?


That doesn't really make sense unless both eye techniques are the same speed and using them in conjunction simply doubles the speed; which is what was implied and stated. You might just have to give me a run down between the two because if Obito is using self-warp to take himself into the Kamui land and Kakashi is using offensive Kamui( as in warp Obito using LoS and Barrier) then how could Kakashi be using a slower form of Kamui?


So that Obito can defend himself while Kakashi transports him to the other world, instead of being smashed into pieces focusing his time solely on jumping to Kamui land. If all Kakashi had to do was transport Obito to the other world and his offensive Kamui is faster than self warp by your standards then why wouldn't Kakashi use that to speed up his self warp as opposed to using whatever else you're refereeing to?


I only ever that Kakashi's warp speed was the same as Obito's self warp speed and that both warp the target in a similar manner; a spiral that sucks the opponent in. Controlling the barrier to warp a larger portion doesn't stop the portion he already started from warping in; hence the fact that the arm got sucked into Kamui land but Kakashi didn't have time to expand the barrier to encompass the head. I actually do want you to explain what happened in that scene because I think we see it much differently.


How is self warp slow? Like what makes you think that? It being exploited by Konan with advanced knowledge of Kamui and a plethora of exploding bombs at speeds never shown in the manga aside from that very feat doesn't make it slow at all. A) Obito can control the speed at which he transports objects out of Kamui, so whether or not that stake was traveling at crazy speeds is up to your own interpretation, B) I need to look back at the Juubi blast feat, C) Resengan wasn't flying at Kakashi faster than self warp could warp, D) Neither were Sussano arrows.


That doesn't make sense because if he jumped before Kamui was used, he would have been illustrated the same he used FTG all the time. If he jumped before using instant speeds, then he would not have been illustrated like a ghost and he would not have been disoriented. Mid-warp jump is not incorrect reading because in order to come down to that conclusion you have to ignore or just blatantly speculate a lot of shit. Like the claim that Kamui was illustrated differently is just false. That's how Kamui is always illustrated with the person spiraling into Obito's eye, difference is that the Kamui wasn't ever finished. Minato interrupted it by disappearing which prompted Obito to praise Minato's speed. I'd FTG was really used before Kamui, then the spiral and ghostly illustration of Minato would not have existed. Kamui is still infinitely slower than FTG because FTG is instant. No matter how fast Kamui is, if Minato used FTG before Kamui was used, then Minato would have just appeared with no strange illustrations; just like the man did here(x).


What was there to instinctively make a jump for? Again, that's unfounded speculation. Minato had no knowledge on Kamui's ability to suck in a target so for you to say that Minato just decided to use FTG so fast that he was disoriented sounds awfully silly. Especially when he was capable of using it while Ay was inches away from punching his face away and sustained 100% composure. Before I even continue I can just bring up the fact that Minato himself stated that Obito used a weird technique to pull his body into Obito's(x), which is what prompted Minato to use FTG in the first place. So yes, Minato used FTG as a reaction to being pulled into Kamui land; can't believe I forgot that panel all along.


I guess we can just disagree here. Saying change is the difference doesn't make sense. If that was the case then Sakura would not have had any reaction to Kamui until after she appeared in the dimension. Sensation, in itself, is a reaction regardless.

One of my biggest concerns is that certain panels are being thrown away as outliers or an improper depiction of Kamui while others are not. If we're just gonna use any feats than why not consider the fact that Minato could physically move and even fall on the ground before Kakashi could even react to use Kamui against TSB(x),and that we've seen Kakashi's offensive Kamui get interrupted on panel with no harm to the user(x) like severed limbs or anything[ it's also depicted in the swirling action that I've been trying to convey]. Why can't those feats be used as justification of Minato and Tobirama trolling Kakashi's Kamui?

This will most likely be my last post though. I gotta prepare for the redux thing, we clearly don't see eye to eye, and these posts are getting rather lengthy.

Reactions: Winner 2


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

@Veracity I will reply shortly. Allow me to address this first—

. . . 


Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) There is a frigging arrow pointed towards the pic in question from the actual caption.


I’m talking about the _flavor text _(or caption, per the translators' terminology) that reads [Swiftness that Surpasses “Shunshin”!!]. It’s for the ‘Shunshin’ panel, like the [The impact tears the forest apart!!] is for the panel used for Fuuton: Renkuudan.



> 2) Its not that I introduced context, it's that you ignored context for your arguments to make sense.
> 
> 3) How is me saying that likely Kakashi got s
> aved by Minato's speed and then just placed the FTG seal then, not addressing Kakashi getting saved?


Do you read, what you yourself said? You have been repeating, the panel is about the seal, which is what the ‘comment says and picture shows’. How did you come about excluding Kakashi from the comment, when it’s mentioned and shown? Yup. You’re assuming that it wasn’t Hiraishin with which he saved Kakashi, so you think it’s about the seal and not the movement. Yet the comment clearly does—!

To quote you, “What kind of mental gymnastics is that?” _*What was the ‘problem’? Yes, does the panel in question depict Hiraishin or a regular Shunshin?*_ You keep saying, ‘comment says, picture shows—so it’s the seal’ but this interpretation stems from your initial assumption that movement wasn’t Hiraishin, so you’re trying to prove to me this isn’t Hiraishin by assuming this isn’t Hiraishin in the first place. What’s this innovative way of reading the databooks? You completely butchered the ‘Table 1.1 shows. . .’ _esque_ purpose of the picture comments.

Look, _I get it that you think he used Shunshin there_, therefore you 'addressed it'. . . so why are you using a comment that says, _"He saves Kakashi. . ."_ to prove to me that he's using Shunshin?



> 5) Your scans mostly just proved toy wrong instead. You said they didn't show the steps of the jutsu but they mostly do irl.



Once more, you can have your ‘precious steps’— my sole contention in collecting them was to show that each panel had a caption attached to it, whose content is based off that panel. You said—



> You said I didn't mention Kakashi, I did.
> You want everyone to assume that first movement was Hirashin, *no where does it say that.*


Swiftness that Surpasses “Shunshin” is the caption for the ‘Shunshin’ panel, like all those other captions relevant to their respective panels. Shunshin surpasses Shunshin? Well, there’s your answer. It’s irrelevant that you extract ‘steps’ from them, because I restate, the problem is: Does the panel in question depicts Hiraishin or regular Shunshin?



> Nor would it make sense from a story telling POV to do a double reveal of both the ftg and level 2 and without a mention of one of those things.


Is this so-called _double reveal _proof that he didn't use Hiraishin there? _No, _and then you say I assume things.  The _Amaterasu-explanation_ you gave can also be given for this scene. _Did Mahiru not say, "That's guy's movements—!" _which escalated into _"I should have ran the first time around?"_. Amaterasu gets another, from cliff-hanger to cliff-hanger, a chapter-long build up to _"Holy S—! That's Amaterasu!"_ when Itachi uses it again. . . Obito's Kamui _got_ a_ double reveal. . . The fact that he was using only jutsu was pointed out the first time, he used it. But when Kakashi explains once more, the other three are like. . . what do you mean, one jutsu?
_
. . . It's perfectly rational to think, this was Mahiru's late-realization. . . He notices that Minato _jumping in the last moment_, comments on his movement, but doesn't realize he's up against the Yellow Flash _until _he uses it again. Hiraishin gets another  moment shortly after—again. In hindsight, if one didn't think he teleported to the kunai, they probably did at this point. This _double-reveal _argument is silly. Madara's Limbo: Hengoku had it. . .


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

You are completely missing the point; relate them to your _original arguments_. . . 

*Problem:* _We don’t know when the Mazou transported after Kamui had been used_. You said—

Kakashi’s Kamui has the speed of the self-warp. If it’s true:
Then there was sufficient time for Kakashi to relocate his barrier. He did it here; the stake is about to hit the clone [1] , so much that Obito thinks the clone dispersed due to his stake [2]. When he realizes, Kakashi blasted the clone altogether, he comments that Kakashi was faster than his stake [3]. This means, the Mazou was transported as soon as Kakashi used Kamui, who otherwise would have relocated his barrier to capture the head instead of the arm. Because the warp did complete, the time was enough for relocation; you have drastically slower [compared to Kuchiyose] explosive tags preventing a self-warp [4]. Minato, of all the people, isn’t sure what happened [5] yet it was slow enough for Konan to mount a counterattack with much slower projectiles [slower than Kuchiyose, that is]?


From this, stems the problem of interruption i.e. Kamui was interrupted. This runs in contradiction to the point above, because if Mazou’s arm was taken, the warp has to completed. Interruption is posited to address Kakashi not relocating the barrier. This necessitates that the warp was not completed, but the Mazou’s arm taken, wasn’t it? It logically follows then [if it’s the speed as stated above] whatever the barrier encapsulates—gets trapped! Kuchiyose can’t counter it, otherwise the Mazou would reach Madara in one piece.


In (i), Mazou stayed long enough while in (ii) it didn’t. (ii) is incorrect because the warp must complete, because that’s how Kakashi’s Kamui works i.e. the barrier must collapse onto the wrinkle completely [6] but if you don’t—then you must accept its conclusion that whatever gets trapped, doesn’t get out. . .

To get out of the trap, you introduced the separation principle: barrier is separate from the warp, which is incorrect. This was the point of all those exhibits; your response is wholly unrelated to their purpose, which was to show that barrier is not separate from the warp. In all those instances, warp initiated upon materialization of the barrier. In Deidara’s case, when Kakashi’s proficiency was less, you see the formation extremely—and it’s still warping upon materialization. . . The Mazou’s clearly shown being warped, so why didn’t it reach Madara in one piece? You said—

Kakashi’s Kamui works exactly the same as Obito’s Kamui, so the Mazou was being warped fully, but it got interrupted, and by that time, only the arm had been warped. Then what is the purpose of the barrier? Kakashi’s Kamui warps what the barrier encapsulates. It’s stated that Kakashi’s Kamui works this way. . . He got Deidara’s arm by improperly aiming the barrier.

Keeping up? Do you now see the problem with self-warp speed, and “don’t know for how long the Mazou stayed”? Let’s backtrack—

Kakashi’s Kamui does not work like Obito’s. It warps what the barrier encapsulates.
|
The barrier is not separate from the warp, and this is shown in all those exhibits.
|
To transport the target into the Timespace, the barrier space must collapse onto the wrinkle. If it’s interrupted mid-way then, then the target is not transported [7].
|
Kakashi warped the Mazou’s arm, and if it was the speed of the self-warp, he would have taken the Mazou’s head instead, because warping the arm accomplishes absolutely nothing and he’s painfully aware of it [8].
|
This means, Mazou was transported as soon as Kakashi used Kamui, and Kakashi still got him.



> Obito can not distract both Tobirama and Minato. That is your first problem. Both have Kage bunshin, top tier reactions, top tier intelligence, FTG, and faster than " Sage Naruto can react" footspeed so I'd assume Obito wouldn't ruin their day and I'd assume they would close the distance between themselves and Kakashi almost instantly.


Explain, then, why right-eye Kamui fails to provide the necessary distraction [1, 2]. Before you point out to me, there’s no comparison between those fodders and the two, my proposal is the nature of the ability. It’s undetectable by any sense, except that of the touch. That is, the only way to confirm or deny the technique’s active (or inactive) state is to be in physical contact with Obito. What if—

He should pretend to attack, and the two mistake it for a genuine attack.
He should attack genuinely and the two mistake it for a pretend.
. . . ?



> Riduko enhanced Kamui was used for Kaguya. Do not forget that.


Rikudou-chakra doesn’t alter what the technique _fundamentally_ is.



> Did I ever say Minato or Tobirama we're even close to that level?



No, but you seem to think that for me believe Kakashi and Obito defeat the two somehow translates to them (especially Kakashi) being placed at _god-tier_, as you do once more here—



> Minato and Tobirama do have insane defenses. FTG is activated mentally. And me stating that Minato and Tobirama can avoid Kamui the moment it touches them isn't out of line thinking like Kakashi being able to warp anyone under god tier with Kamui. One makes Minato and Tobirama quick; the other makes Kakashi damn near god tier.







> That doesn't really make sense unless both eye techniques are the same speed and using them in conjunction simply doubles the speed; which is what was implied and stated. You might just have to give me a run down between the two because if Obito is using self-warp to take himself into the Kamui land and Kakashi is using offensive Kamui( as in warp Obito using LoS and Barrier) then how could Kakashi be using a slower form of Kamui?


Kakashi is *not* using ‘offensive’ Kamui. He’s merely utilizing his ‘eye-power’ (not offensive Kamui) to speed Obito’s jump, giving it an illusion of “DMS” Obito making a jump. That was the point, Obito made.



> So that Obito can defend himself while Kakashi transports him to the other world, instead of being smashed into pieces focusing his time solely on jumping to Kamui land. If all Kakashi had to do was transport Obito to the other world and his offensive Kamui is faster than self warp by your standards then why wouldn't Kakashi use that to speed up his self warp as opposed to using whatever else you're refereeing to?


You don’t understand. . . If Madara countered self-warp [because it was too slow], then he would have had no trouble dealing with Kakashi warping Obito either, because it’s the same speed, which was too slow to make a successful transportation, yet says he won't be able to.



> I only ever that Kakashi's warp speed was the same as Obito's self warp speed and that both warp the target in a similar manner; a spiral that sucks the opponent in. Controlling the barrier to warp a larger portion doesn't stop the portion he already started from warping in; hence the fact that the arm got sucked into Kamui land but Kakashi didn't have time to expand the barrier to encompass the head. I actually do want you to explain what happened in that scene because I think we see it much differently.


The portion outside the barrier *doesn't *get warped, simple. Yet, you're saying that Mazou was being pulled in completely, but Madara interrupted it, so only the arm was pulled by that time. But Kakashi never tried to warp the _whole_ Mazou. Consider the scan:

It's clear that his _aim_ is already off from the start, as one sees the barrier materializing to the _right_. If the Mazou was still, Kakashi's _aim_ wouldn't be off, so the Mazou is in _motion_ to be transported. You see _slight distortion_ to its face, this gives us a hint that Kakashi's original intention was to take out its head i.e. where the barrier materialized, Mazou's head was originally in that space, but the movement on Mazou's part i.e. prior to Kakashi's activation, causes the barrier to capture the arm instead. . . and that's when the Mazou transports.

Movement on Kakashi's part and Mazou's is happening in parallel, so if it stayed long enough for the warp to be completed [Remember Obito cancelled it, when he tried earlier], he would have adjusted the barrier. . . The fact that he didn't, and knowing he had no interest in taking out its arm,means, the Mazou was transported as soon as Kakashi's Kamui materialized.



> How is self warp slow? Like what makes you think that? It being exploited by Konan with advanced knowledge of Kamui and a plethora of exploding bombs at speeds never shown in the manga aside from that very feat doesn't make it slow at all.


There's nothing _remarkable_ about them. They were only effective, because _self-warp_ _is_ _too slow, _and this is outright stated. Konan > Minato _now_?



> A) Obito can control the speed at which he transports objects out of Kamui, so whether or not that stake was traveling at crazy speeds is up to your own interpretation,


_*Obito: *"Damn you Kakashi. . . Faster than the stake. . .!"
_


> B) I need to look back at the Juubi blast feat, C) Resengan wasn't flying at Kakashi faster than self warp could warp,


It hit him, and he warped it, before it could do much damage. If his Kamui is the speed of self-warp, then he would have been hurt badly.



> D) Neither were Sussano arrows.


They're blazingly fast; Sasuke is shocked, when Kabuto dodges them. They are definitely a lot faster than Konan's paper bombs.



> That doesn't make sense because if he jumped before Kamui was used, he would have been illustrated the same he used FTG all the time. If he jumped before using instant speeds, then he would not have been illustrated like a ghost and he would not have been disoriented. Mid-warp jump is not incorrect reading because in order to come down to that conclusion you have to ignore or just blatantly speculate a lot of shit. Like the claim that Kamui was illustrated differently is just false. That's how Kamui is always illustrated with the person spiraling into Obito's eye, difference is that the Kamui wasn't ever finished. Minato interrupted it by disappearing which prompted Obito to praise Minato's speed. I'd FTG was really used before Kamui, then the spiral and ghostly illustration of Minato would not have existed. Kamui is still infinitely slower than FTG because FTG is instant. No matter how fast Kamui is, if Minato used FTG before Kamui was used, then Minato would have just appeared with no strange illustrations; just like the man did here(x).


As I understand, a paragraph delivers a complete one idea. You don’t think, I accounted for the fact, you see Kamui in-effect?  Look at the panel, Minato’s already formed the hand-seal. . . you see Kamui to an effect, because it is fast too. . . The sequence is depicting the warp in a detail. . . This is slowed down to depict techniques of this level in effect. What happened to the slow down people vehemently postulated for Madara vs Guy?



> What was there to instinctively make a jump for? Again, that's unfounded speculation. Minato had no knowledge on Kamui's ability to suck in a target so for you to say that Minato just decided to use FTG so fast that he was disoriented sounds awfully silly. Especially when he was capable of using it while Ay was inches away from punching his face away and sustained 100% composure. Before I even continue I can just bring up the fact that Minato himself stated that Obito used a weird technique to pull his body into Obito's(x), which is what prompted Minato to use FTG in the first place. So yes, Minato used FTG as a reaction to being pulled into Kamui land; can't believe I forgot that panel all along.


“You’re my opponent. . . and we’re done!!” is a signal for _something bad_.



> I guess we can just disagree here. Saying change is the difference doesn't make sense. If that was the case then Sakura would not have had any reaction to Kamui until after she appeared in the dimension. Sensation, in itself, is a reaction regardless.


It’s a ‘reaction’ to an occurrence of an event. [!?] implies you didn’t comprehend what transpired. Simple as that! This is Mahiru’s ‘reaction’ to Hiraishin no Jutsu too, but courtesy of Minato, who allows him to express his regret. . .



Veracity said:


> Naw. Kakashi's Kamui isn't exactly like Obito's self warp, but it still pulls the target piece at a time, instead of the entire thing at once; as evidenced when Naruto's resengan appeared piece at a time in the Kamui dimension.





> What Kakashi can do isn't crystal clear at all when his usage and proficiency with Kamui changes based on experience, MS strain, and whatever chakra he's being boosted by, layered with the fact that you have openly admitted to ignoring panels of Kamui because just fuck it at times.  Tobirama tagging Juubito on other hand? Pretty clear.





> One thing I would like to point out is the fact that all the examples you used are before Kakashi and Obito drew a link between their Kamui techniques. The illustration of the technique had to have been different than Obito's because the reader wasn't suppose I know the link between the two.





> One of my biggest concerns is that certain panels are being thrown away as outliers or an improper depiction of Kamui while others are not.


You have _three panels_ in opposition to a dozen or so depictions in which the technique i_s working as established by Kakashi’s statement_. You can chalk those three to art-inconsistencies [or Kishimoto being lazy], but one can’t chalk the remainder to that. It still worked like that, after its connection to Tobi had been made clear. . . towards the very end against Kaguya, when he considers warping the giant Gudoudama.

I’m sorry, but no, you’re simply piling up contadictions upon contradictions to discredit his one feat, which is pretty clear.



> If we're just gonna use any feats than why not consider the fact that Minato could physically move and even fall on the ground before Kakashi could even react to use Kamui against TSB(x),


I'm confused as to what you're trying to convey with it, seeing what their _strategy _was.



> and that we've seen Kakashi's offensive Kamui get interrupted on panel with no harm to the user(x) like severed limbs or anything[ it's also depicted in the swirling action that I've been trying to convey].


Yes, and _by whom? _It's either Madara, or Obito himself _negating _it. Secondly, that's one of those three instances.



> Why can't those feats be used as justification of Minato and Tobirama trolling Kakashi's Kamui?


Because Tobirama and Minato are _*not* _Madara or Obito? Two, Obito is _accompanying _Kakashi.

Reactions: Winner 1


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Yeah that definitely will be my last reply. That was literally a 1000+ word post of the same information recycled for like the third time. Like it was almost identical to the post before, so I'm just gonna pass on wasting 45 minutes refuting the same thing.


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 21, 2017)

@Veracity  Perhaps if you formatted your response to quote specific parts that you are responding to, makes it less lengthy and easier to follow than straight up typing an essay response.

You failed to address the scans I posted that shows:

-The stake never had to rely on speed to travel, because it's wasn't fully warped by the time it was about to hit naruto. The stake's length was greater than it's distance from Naruto.

-Kakashi warped the Naruto in the fraction of the time Obito warped the stake.

-Him warping the "undodgeable" Susanoo arrows which were halfway to his position and the fact that TSB's are no faster than a Kunai.

-The scan showing that Minato activated FTG when being warped by Obito but he still kept getting distorted even more in the next panel, and finally disappeared in the third one, meaning that while FTG is instant, the delay between it's activation and execution is still there.

Also the example you posted, the Rasengan looks complete to me, not piece by piece, but just looks exactly the same way that it's affected by the barrier when it's initially teleported.

-Now if we where to take your word, that Kamui warps piece by piece, Then the flying thunder gods could still be affected by Kakashi's faster Kamui. A whole body Kamui attempt would leave one of them with a hole in their torso or leg missing.


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Yeah that definitely will be my last reply. That was literally a 1000+ word post of the same information recycled for like the third time. Like it was almost identical to the post before, so I'm just gonna pass on wasting 45 minutes refuting the same thing.


Well, you’re not bound to respond at all—!

I only responded, so my position remains clear i.e. from whence sprouted the discussion, and how marvelously you diverged from it. It helps the people who aren't _following up _know what unprecedented mess you made of _Kakashi's Kamui _in trying to dismiss his one feat. I'm sorry, but you refuted practically nothing. You didn't even know what you yourself argued in the first place, and to what I objected. 

But, thanks. You took your time, I appreciate that.


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## Trojan (Jul 21, 2017)

You people are insane! 

I guess I will have to rep you for the effort you put in those walls of text. lol

Reactions: Like 2


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## Hi no Ishi (Jul 21, 2017)

Hasan said:


> @Veracity I will reply shortly. Allow me to address this first—
> 
> . . .
> 
> ...


1) you can't even tell flavor text from caption, spent all that time trying to be snarky about what you mistakenly think is the caption, and still are trying to act like the pictures don't show exactly the steps of Hiraishin like they do with almost every tech even though you and everyone else who saw the scans knows it.
I know it's hard to keep up with two conversations but that doesn't stop you from just plain wrong.

2) not that assumptions are great in any case but assuming a negative such as "I don't believe in goblins because I haven't seen one" makes a heck of a lot more sense than "he did a thing even though it's  never mentioned anywhere!" Or "Kakashi can fly because my argument doesn’t make sense without it!"

3) Your argument of " sure you mentioned Kakashi but I forgot and it's your fault for not saying his name over and over" is also silly.

You've been wrong about so many of your random defenses it's a pretty safe bet your intent it to keep throwing anything until something maybe sticks.
Good day, sir.

Reactions: Agree 1


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Hi no Ishi said:


> 1) you can't even tell flavor text from caption, spent all that time trying to be snarky about what you mistakenly think is the caption, and still are trying to act like the pictures don't show exactly the steps of Hiraishin like they do with almost every tech even though you and everyone else who saw the scans knows it.
> I know it's hard to keep up with two conversations but that doesn't stop you from just plain wrong.


What are you talking about? I made a mention, when I shifted to the translators' terminology:



Hasan said:


> _Those captions [as I called text flavors, earlier]_ are for the individual panels (and of course, by default related to article). The “Swiftness that surpasses [Shunshin]” is for that main picture [it’s stemming from this panel, so you need not to figure out which panel it ‘might’ be talking about]


It's not my fault, you didn't read _properly_. 



> 3) Your argument of " sure you mentioned Kakashi but I forgot and it's your fault for not saying his name over and over" is also silly.


Yeah, sorry I thought, you wouldn't commit such an absurd mistake. . . You tried to prove to me _something_ by assuming _that_ _something was already true. _Really?_ 

*EDIT: *But keep on misrepresenting what I said. . ._


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Crimson Flam3s said:


> @Veracity  Perhaps if you formatted your response to quote specific parts that you are responding to, makes it less lengthy and easier to follow than straight up typing an essay response.
> 
> You failed to address the scans I posted that shows:
> 
> ...



We've had a similar debate to this that lasted literal pages and you more or less have the same opinion as Hasan; so what I'm not going to do is waste hours of my day replying to both of you. We don't see eye to eye at all and discussing it is essentially like throwing walls of unoriginal text at each other for an entire week of debating.

@Hasan 

If that's really how you perceived the outcome of that debate then no wonder we have such vastly different interpretations of the manga. Each to their own I guess


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> @Hasan
> 
> If that's really how you perceived the outcome of that debate then no wonder we have such vastly different interpretations of the manga. Each to their own I guess


Honestly, I could understand, people taking issue with the _speed of the warp_ [even I didn't deny] that there are instances where it was observably slow, but there are also instances where it was nigh-instantaneous. I was surprised, when you started to postulate _Kakashi's Kamui_ as something that it wasn't, really. I didn't believe, even the staunchest Kakashi-detractors denied it. But here we are—


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Honestly, I could understand, people taking issue with the _speed of the warp_ [even I didn't deny] that there are instances where it was observably slow, but there are also instances where it was nigh-instantaneous. I was surprised, when you started to postulate _Kakashi's Kamui_ as something that it wasn't, really. I didn't believe, even the staunchest Kakashi-detractors denied it. But here we are—


You really think you didn't make a single outrageous claim in this thread or..?


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## Crimson Flam3s (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> We've had a similar debate to this that lasted literal pages and you more or less have the same opinion as Hasan; so what I'm not going to do is waste hours of my day replying to both of you. We don't see eye to eye at all and discussing it is essentially like throwing walls of unoriginal text at each other for an entire week of debating.



Yes we have, although this is a different debate lol, I'm not talking about the whole Kamui barrier and etc but about iirc it was about self warp Kamui speed vs regular Kamui speed, would be nice if you could address since I find it very hard that it's the opposite, and you always put a creative twist to it.

Anyways, I understand if you don't wanna continue. Good debate as always.

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> You really think you didn't make a single outrageous claim in this thread or..?


Is that a reference to the original post? I would have elaborated, if you people had asked me to. 

On a serious note, I think, I made an effort and while I don't claim to be right, your 'refutations' have been unsatisfactory aside the bit, Minato's disorientation being the result of Kamui. This Minato _bit in particular_, I believe it's outrageous to claim that Kishimoto wasn't _mindful_ of writing at the time; I think that's what the mid-warp escape essentially entails. . .


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Is that a reference to the original post? I would have elaborated, if you people had asked me to.
> 
> On a serious note, I think, I made an effort and while I don't claim to be right, your 'refutations' have been unsatisfactory aside the bit, Minato's disorientation being the result of Kamui. This Minato _bit in particular_, I believe it's outrageous to claim that Kishimoto wasn't _mindful_ of writing at the time; I think that's what the mid-warp escape essentially entails. . .



Minato outright claims that Obito was sucking him into his eye....So that means that FTG had to have been used in response to Kamui. I don't know what else to say to that aside from what the man said himself. The only form of refutation is to conclude that Obito can control the speed at which he warps objects or Minato really should not have been worried about Obito touching him and that Kishi made a small mistake with semantics. But saying that FTG was used before isn't really an option... it's just plain made up.


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Minato outright claims that Obito was sucking him into his eye....So that means that FTG had to have been used in response to Kamui. I don't know what else to say to that aside from what the man said himself. The only form of refutation is to conclude that* Obito can control the speed at which he warps objects* or Minato really should not have been worried about Obito touching him and that Kishi was wrong. But saying that FTG was used before isn't really an option... it's just plain made up.


Well, that's the point: _He doesn't mention it_. What he does mention [and Minato even concedes] is to warp without a delay. From Obito's perspective, it's clear _why_ the first time around, he failed. I backtrack from it, as his comment directly follows from the _failure. _As I have said, I don't believe Kishimoto is a consistent author, but _this. . . _is an outright absurdity to believe, he could have made an error here, since there is definitely a continuity in the event and Obito's comment, and Minato's concession.

I think, the panel is peculiarly drawn as to how it depicts the warp. I'm reluctant to accept it to be _at the same time_, due to Minato's reflexes and it being not out of the ordinary for shinobi in general to perfectly time their techniques. If it's not mid-warp; not same-time, then we're only left with _just-before:
_
​That is, Minato had small head-start (enough to make a difference), so you see both techniques in an essentially slowed down sequence. His comment is, then, describing his experience, because Kamui—being fast itself—did materialize to an effect. Otherwise, he makes clear that Obito would win, if the latter should secure the split-second.

I would be fine with an inconsistency, if they were two seperate instances, dozen or so chapters apart, but like I said, an absurdity to claim that Kishimoto made an error here (*EDIT: *and if it was irreconcilable).

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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Hasan said:


> Well, that's the point: _He doesn't mention it_. What he does mention [and Minato even concedes] is to warp without a delay. From Obito's perspective, it's clear _why_ the first time around, he failed. I backtrack from it, as his comment directly follows from the _failure. _As I have said, I don't believe Kishimoto is a consistent author, but _this. . . _is an outright absurdity to believe, he could have made an error here, since there is definitely a continuity in the event and Obito's comment, and Minato's concession.
> 
> I think, the panel is peculiarly drawn as to how it depicts the warp. I'm reluctant to accept it to be _at the same time_, due to Minato's reflexes and it being not out of the ordinary for shinobi in general to perfectly time their techniques. If it's not mid-warp; not same-time, then we're only left with _just-before:
> _
> ...



Bruh what. It's just wild speculation on your part. Why can't Minauo just have used FTG in response to Kamui like he literally said? Why are you looking deep into semantics and interpreting such in a ridiculous way? Like Minato is wildly accepted to have evaded that Kamui Mid-warp( like he said) while only you believe that it was during or before. The illustration shows this and Minato says this. 

You're also interpreting Obito's comment entirely different than basically everybody. You think that the delay from the warp means that it gave Minato ample time to start his FTG but that isn't the only way it can be interpreted. It could also mean that the delay gave Minato time to gain his composure and realize what truly was happening. It would have been much easier to have slipped through Minato, and warped him the instant he made contact instead of talking to Minato and giving the man time to gain his senses.

FTG could not have been before Kamui because it's instant. You cannot begin to warp something in that is instantaneous. It also could not have been at the same time, because the speed of Kamui is still infinitely slower than instant speed. So both of those claims are impossible. It's more logical to claim that Minato activated FTG in response to be sucked in, hence the reason he was disorientated.

 Why is Minato's hand highlighted in red? If that's postulation of a seal then I don't really know how anyone could come down to that conclusion. It's really just the mans fingers. You also don't even need seals for FTG, so I don't know why Minato would feel the need to use them.


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## Hasan (Jul 21, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Bruh what. It's just wild speculation on your part. Why can't Minauo just have used FTG in response to Kamui like he literally said? Why are you looking deep into semantics and interpreting such in a ridiculous way? Like Minato is wildly accepted to have evaded that Kamui Mid-warp( like he said) while only you believe that it was during or before. The illustration shows this and Minato says this.


This is how I make sense of it; otherwise, Minato needed not to worry _about anything, yet he did!_



> You're also interpreting Obito's comment entirely different than basically everybody. You think that the delay from the warp means that it gave Minato ample time to start his FTG but that isn't the only way it can be interpreted. It could also mean that the delay gave Minato time to gain his composure and realize what truly was happening. It would have been much easier to have slipped through Minato, and warped him the instant he made contact instead of talking to Minato and giving the man time to gain his senses.


That's what I mean: Obito's delayed warp was him _talking_ before _warping_. I pointed this out in an earlier response too. Is my language that terrible?



> FTG could not have been before Kamui because it's instant. You cannot begin to warp something in that is instantaneous. It also could not have been at the same time, because the speed of Kamui is still infinitely slower than instant speed. So both of those claims are impossible. It's more logical to claim that Minato activated FTG in response to be sucked in, hence the reason he was disorientated.


It's _instant_ when it activates, no?



> Why is Minato's hand highlighted in red? If that's postulation of a seal then I don't really know how anyone could come down to that conclusion. It's really just the mans fingers. You also don't even need seals for FTG, so I don't know why Minato would feel the need to use them.


Well, he occasionally does, for one. Two, it's rather _unusually_ prominent in the figure.

*EDIT: *Look, we could over semantics for eternity. Fact is, this scene happened, and there is definitely a continuity in the event, Obito's comment, and Minato's concession; Kishimoto could not have possibly committed an error here. Otherwise, there's no point to #502. Minato would kill Obito, and call it a day!

I just find my rationalization simple, and working.


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## Veracity (Jul 21, 2017)

Hasan said:


> This is how I make sense of it; otherwise, Minato needed not to worry _about anything, yet he did!_
> 
> 
> That's what I mean: Obito's delayed warp was him _talking_ before _warping_. I pointed this out in an earlier response too. Is my language that terrible?
> ...



Kishi isn't always consistent though. Orochimaru stated that a single punch from Tsuande would kill him, yet took that same punch from Tsunade _who had a greater pool of chakra to pull from_ and remained Alive. Kisame alluded to MP being able to take him out yet took the largest Hirudora in canon with mild injuries. Madara also aluded to a direct hit from Red Gate Gai putting him out of commission yet took 4 EE's, a direct blow, Night Gai, and then YRS from Naruto before needing to feed from the Shinju Tree. 

Oh okay, I agree.

Yeah but if it's instant then how could Minato have possibly used FTG before Kamui? And if it's done at the same time, then instant speed beats Kamui speed every time.

I was about to reference the fact that Kishi doesn't always even waste his time drawing seals but then I remembered that Minato spent majority of his life as an Edo with no arms yet was still using FTG. So it isn't necessarily needed, and it's weird that it's used sometimes. But I can't just tell you you're 100% wrong. If you really think that his hands being position means he was attempting to weave seals then we can just agree to disagree.

The only error there was Minato stating that he would lose if he got touched again. Obito's comment doesn't mean anything more than " I'm gonna warp the man sooner instead of wasting time talking." And the illustration of the panel, Minato's statement, and the mechanics of FTG disagree with the notion that FTG was done before or at the same time rather after the sensation of being pulled in. But I don't believe you would ever agree to that, and I don't neccearily agree to Obito and Minato using their techniques at the same time. So idk at this point lol.


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## Hasan (Jul 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> Kishi isn't always consistent though. Orochimaru stated that a single punch from Tsuande would kill him, yet took that same punch from Tsunade _who had a greater pool of chakra to pull from_ and remained Alive. Kisame alluded to MP being able to take him out yet took the largest Hirudora in canon with mild injuries. Madara also aluded to a direct hit from Red Gate Gai putting him out of commission yet took 4 EE's, a direct blow, Night Gai, and then YRS from Naruto before needing to feed from the Shinju Tree.


As I said, there is an obvious continuity here, so it can’t possibly be an inconsistency. That is, Kishimoto is following through til the end. For the sake of argument, even if inconsistency is assumed, then the comments of both Obito and Minato override this scene. As in, Kishimoto wrote this scene, but retracted afterwards.

I checked those instances, you referred to. I couldn’t find Kisame’s comment, beside this; Madara doesn’t say anything to such an effect either, only along the lines of being troublesome. Orochimaru’s [comment to Kabuto] is an obvious hype statement—none of which is the case here. . .



> Yeah but if it's instant then how could Minato have possibly used FTG before Kamui? And if it's done at the same time, then instant speed beats Kamui speed every time.
> 
> I was about to reference the fact that Kishi doesn't always even waste his time drawing seals but then I remembered that Minato spent majority of his life as an Edo with no arms yet was still using FTG. So it isn't necessarily needed, and it's weird that it's used sometimes. But I can't just tell you you're 100% wrong. If you really think that his hands being position means he was attempting to weave seals then we can just agree to disagree.


The jump itself is instantaneous, but activation may not be; Tobirama implied this. That is, the user has to use the technique first, which isn’t instantaneous. At the very least, it’s not too fast for Kamui according to this scene.

The trouble is, you think Kamui is too slow for Minato (1), and it’s drawn on a paper (2). I don’t see how else Kishimoto could have depicted this scene, except to show the two jutsu side-by-side to set a precedent for the finale. At the end of the day, the *major perspective* is still that Minato barely avoided it, and would have lost if next time should come. Whatever the semantics we employ to rationalize, they should fit this perspective, so it’s impossible that Kishimoto posited a mid-warp jump with that scene.

This is where the hand seal comes in. I think, it’s needed here to provide a temporal indication as to ‘when’ the jump was made. Otherwise, this would be an ambiguous scene or at the very least, runs in contradiction to what follows.



> The only error there was Minato stating that he would lose if he got touched again. Obito's comment doesn't mean anything more than " I'm gonna warp the man sooner instead of wasting time talking." And the illustration of the panel, Minato's statement, and the mechanics of FTG disagree with the notion that FTG was done before or at the same time rather after the sensation of being pulled in. But I don't believe you would ever agree to that, and I don't neccearily agree to Obito and Minato using their techniques at the same time. So idk at this point lol.


It’s not Obito by himself, but Minato too, who’s clearly in agreement:_ “It comes down to speed. Whoever strikes a split-second earlier will win. . .”. _So, whatever the rationalization (not mine, necessarily), it has to fit it.

I have no idea, what else to say. My impression is your only problem is that _Kamui is too slow_ _for Minato_ and that's preventing you from seeing the scene like that, so for you to accept my theory, you need to retract this. Beside that, I think it explains very well, save the _disorientation-bit_ which I accept. My idea is, if I can make sense than having to bash Kishimoto, I'll do it.


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## Veracity (Jul 22, 2017)

Hasan said:


> As I said, there is an obvious continuity here, so it can’t possibly be an inconsistency. That is, Kishimoto is following through til the end. For the sake of argument, even if inconsistency is assumed, then the comments of both Obito and Minato override this scene. As in, Kishimoto wrote this scene, but retracted afterwards.
> 
> I checked those instances, you referred to. I couldn’t find Kisame’s comment, beside this; Madara doesn’t say anything to such an effect either, only along the lines of being troublesome. Orochimaru’s [comment to Kabuto] is an obvious hype statement—none of which is the case here. . .
> 
> ...



We're never really gonna agree on this, so I'm just gonna leave it be tbh.


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## Hasan (Jul 22, 2017)

Veracity said:


> We're never really gonna agree on this, so I'm just gonna leave it be tbh.


Not a problem. Once more, thanks for taking your time, I appreciate it. 

________​I suppose, if the thread still has in it, some life. . . and nobody wants to read several walls of text, I summed up one of the two discussions, in the . As for the other discussion, the _general breakdown_ resembles something like this:

_It’s showing steps, clearly_ *(the other poster)*
↑ ↓
_Good to know; but I’m talking about some-
thing else _*(me)*​

​

Reactions: Friendly 1


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## Gohara (Jul 23, 2017)

It can go either way in my opinion as there's an amazing balance between both teams in most aspects of combat and where one team excels in some aspects such as offense the other team excels in other aspects such as back up Techniques such as Izanami and Izanagi.


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